# HD Guru says avoid DirectTV due to burn in



## TheKnobber (Dec 28, 2006)

Article removed due to copyright violation


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## SockMonkey (Aug 14, 2006)

Didn't see this mentioned over here on DBSTalk (yes, I did a search), so I figured I would post the link. The discussion in the comments is more interesting than the original post actually.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/burn-unit/new-directv-dvrs-can-mess-up-plasma-tvs-but-not-lcds-287604.php

I use all black pillar boxes so I can't say I remember seeing this small black bar on the side of the picture being broadcast. Could it be the network feed doing this or is it really the receivers adding the bars? I'd think this would be easily fixed if it's in the receiver software.

Note: I should mention that the OP of the article states later in the comments that he is referring to the small black bars between the gray and the actual picture being broadcast. He is aware the pillar bar color can be changed.

Bob


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## SockMonkey (Aug 14, 2006)

Of course, I just posted a similar story and stated that I didn't see it posted anywhere else. You beat me by 4 minutes (while I was typing mine).


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Please post the link.... (that is like an echo today)...
To the article...


As for the article...
It is something that has been talked about here for a while...
And has actually been around on the H20's for a while, so I am not sure why just "today" it is being brought up again...

Either way, it is not consistant (at least from what I have seen)... to all channels/programming. 

So why the risk is real for some TV's/Setups... and the risk changes based on the technology/generation for your TV... 
It is avoidable until DirecTV can identify somesort of way to avoid the the lines.

I think a bigger concern, would be from the networks that broadcast a 16:9 image, which is nothing more then a 4:3 image matted on a black background.

There isn't a whole lot any receiver (let alone a DirecTV receiver), could do with cases like that.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Um. There is an option to change the black to gray, isn't there?


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Doesn't sound like much of a 'Guru' to me.

Apparently (so his article makes it sound) only the H20 and HR20 display a 4:3 picture black bars. WTF?!?

Also, how about mentioning a couple simple work-arounds:
1) streach the picture on your display
2) change the setting for black bars to grey bars

'Guru' -- NOT!

"Something against D*" -- a possibility.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> Um. There is an option to change the black to gray, isn't there?


They are referring to the black lip, that results in cases where the 4:3 image is not fully populating the 4:3 region... Kinda like an "underscan" issue... for lack of a better term.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> Um. There is an option to change the black to gray, isn't there?


Can't on an HD channel with bars built it..


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are referring to the black lip, that results in cases where the 4:3 image is not fully populating the 4:3 region... Kinda like an "underscan" issue... for lack of a better term.


Ah- I haven't noticed that on my TV. Must be because its a small LCD????


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Is this really that big of a problem?

My Samsung CRT Rear Projection HD is over three years old. Manual warns of burn-in and suggests no more than 15% of usage in 4:3 ratio. However I have yet to notice any burn-in effect on my screen. I'd guess I now watch more than half of the programs in HD, but that certainly wasn't the case three years ago.

And why single out D's HR20? I had the same black bars on the screen when I was using Adelphia's DVR. Then I couldn't even change the black bars to gray.

Bill


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

It might be useful for the OP to better describe the issue in the first post. I thought we were talking about the side bars, but as Earl explained, and if you go to the link in the 2nd post, you will see that there is a thin black frame around the 4:3 image. That is what they are talking about.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't understand what this has to do with DIRECTV. This is something that would affect all providers equally, including OTA, right? 

Someone out there have an axe to grind?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Has anyone seen this recently? that picture is a year old..


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

houskamp said:


> Has anyone seen this recently? that picture is a year old..


Why is it a year old?

Regardless... yes.. it does exist today.


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## jrodfoo (Apr 9, 2007)

I have an LCD, so it really won't effect me in the long run, but I think that since D* is first in the line with the whole HD upgrading, 150 channels, ect, blah blah blah, everyone wants to pile on and try to find every little thing to nit pick with. It's really comical.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Gee, I thought all the plamsa guru's were saying that burnin was no longer an issues?:sure: Maybe he should have also said don't watch CNBC, Fox news, CNN, etc which have constant crawls that can caus burn in.


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## RobertSeattle (Aug 27, 2006)

But I only notice it when I want to notice it. Your mileage may very. It's not a big deal to me.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

I have thee letters for you: DLP 

Someone has an axe to grind or else believes that yellow journalism is still a valid editorial policy.


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## packfan909 (Oct 6, 2006)

I have never had an issue with this. Just stretch the 4:3 image to fill your 16:9 screen. If we are talking about 4:3 on Digital Channels (MPeg4 or ATSC) then switch to the Analog channel for the time being. Some digital stations are taking advantage of their subchannels by simulcasting a 4:3 version of their programming on -2. Our CBS station does this, and I applaud them for it. Wish more stations that don't leverage multicasting would do this.

The postage stamp style images, like the ones I now get on our local PBS station now that the national HD stream is gone are very frustrating. Anamorphic LB Crop would be 100% better. Our local news started doing this with their in the field reports on their HD newscasts. 

Most Widesreen owners are used to watching SD stretched out.

Article is way out of proportion.

pf


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Why is this about someone having an "axe to grind". Lord forbid someone points out a potential risk in something DirecTV sells and as usual a few get their pitchforks and torches out and start to assemble...and in this case without really reading the whole article...or even looking at the picture.

The black bars are not user controlled from the menu...they are small, thin lines on the borders of the pillar bars. I haven't seen the same thing come from other HD receivers, but I haven't used them that much. It doesn't happen on a straight Comcast feed or with OTA programming.

Yes, I guess you could use stretch, but in many cases that makes the picture unwatchable. Another solution would be to turn the TV off. Clearly, it's something DirecTV should fix...and in the meantime warn people of the risk. 

The bars that ESPN HD broadcasts I guess could do the same thing...but they seem to make them a gray most of the time.


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## Skooz (Jul 20, 2007)

My Mitsubishi rear projector HD TV has the burn ins where I viewed 4:3 in the correct ratio with my HR10-250. When I noticed them, I immediately changed the format to stretch. Yeah, it distorts the 4:3 channels a bit, but not too bad. 

Luckily, I caught it before the lines became too noticeable. 

This is more of an issue with rear projection sets than other HD units.


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

I'm quite aware of the "black lip" Earl is referring to also.

I used to always have the pillar bars grey with my HR10-250... When doing this with the HR20 you still have a small area of black on both sides of the 4:3 image, before the grey pillars.

I have since turned the pillars black on my HR20s that are connected to my CRT RPTV. I'm not too worried about burn in on those sets cause the contrasts are low.

However, on my 50 inch plasma I watch all 4:3 in stretch or crop mode. I worry about these thin black bars burning into the image.


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

Do I have the only TV's in the world that can zoom in on the picture? While the argument is semi founded, it's a ridiculous argument as there are MANY ways to get around this issue.

There will never be anything anyone can do about movies that were recorded 20 yrs ago in letterbox 4:3 ratio. Guy is full of it and is just causing trouble.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

The 'black bar' problem isn't something that's a D* problem alone. Our local FOX station uses dark gray bars when they have 4:3 content and they two black bars between the image and the gray bars, nothing that the user can do to get rid of it unless their ATSC tuner/set allows them to 'stretch' 4:3 ATSC content. So while this is something that D* should try to correct it's not something that's unquiue to D* alone.


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## HD AV (Nov 22, 2006)

I have 4 Letters for you LCoS. Just kidding, DLP and LCoS can also be affected if left on 4:3 for extremely long periods extended over time. Seriously, all OTA digital stations broadcasting 4:3 material matted on the 16:9 format generally leave the side bar area blank which means black. Fortunately my SXRD XBR2 permits Zoom and Wide Zoom when receiving a 720p or 1080i signal. Unfortunately, many newer HD TVs zoom functions only work on NTSC 4:3 signals and do not permit eliminating the black bars from digital 16:9 signals. I have witnessed this on many different brands. These are the TVs that will suffer the most from the 4:3 black bar viewing and D*s black line issue with the gray bars. This also applies to LCD TVs, although, they are not nearly as susceptible as plasma and CRT. But LCD owners beware, if you leave your set on 4:3 aspect for most of your viewing over extended periods of time, you also will notice a difference in brightness in the "bar" areas when watching 16:9. This may take several years, but many who bought new HD sets plan on keeping them for many years to come (unless they are a video enthusiast and/or have money to burn). Most will probably have these TVs for many years and do not expect to have problems caused by the broadcast and/or their viewing habits.


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## Fish Man (Apr 22, 2002)

lamontcranston said:


> I don't understand what this has to do with DIRECTV. This is something that would affect all providers equally, including OTA, right?
> 
> Someone out there have an axe to grind?


Indeed. His biggest complaint was the displaying of 4x3 content in pillarbox form.

Every HD cable or satellite box in existance, AFAIK, lets you choose to display 4x3 content in "pillarbox" format and gives, as at least one selection, "black" for the color of the pillar bars.

This is nothing unique to DirecTV. Indeed, it is universal to all providers.

Also, as others have mentioned, many digital television channels choose to present 4x3 content in pillarbox format, with black bars, and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about that except to avoid watching such content altogether!

It seems that "HD Guru" is either extremely ignorant about HD technology (hardly a guru, then!!!  ) or has an outright malice against DirecTV to be spreading such a distorted view. Payola from a cable company, perhaps? Cable feeling the heat of D10 and D11, maybe?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> Indeed. His biggest complaint was the displaying of 4x3 content in pillarbox form.
> 
> Every HD cable or satellite box in existance, AFAIK, lets you choose to display 4x3 content in "pillarbox" format and gives, as at least one selection, "black" for the color of the pillar bars.
> 
> ...


No... what you are missing...

The complaint isn't about the pillar boxes... it is the "black lip" that is around the 4:3... when you are in Grey or Dark Grey mode (it is there too in black, you just can't see it).

So if you do select to use one of the grey's (which is less prone to burn-in), you will get that small "lip" and that is what the article is about...


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> Indeed. His biggest complaint was the displaying of 4x3 content in pillarbox form.
> 
> Every HD cable or satellite box in existance, AFAIK, lets you choose to display 4x3 content in "pillarbox" format and gives, as at least one selection, "black" for the color of the pillar bars.
> 
> ...


Problem is there is a thin black bar on each side of the SD 4:3 image *before* the grey pillar bars... this unique to the HR20. You don't see it if you select black bars.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

packfan909 said:


> Most Widesreen owners are used to watching SD stretched out.


Speak for yourself. I have never watched anything stretched (unless you count TNT's stretch o vision) in the year I have owned my 16:9 tv. I can't stand watching things not in the OAR.


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

I can see that thin black line on my plasmas too. Always wondered why it was there, now I know it's got something to do with Directv's HD transmission. I never saw it before I moved to gray bars, of course, since it blended into black bars. Not sure if it's also true of OTA signals of HD channels that are not currently transmitting HD signal (which is why the large bars show up on HD channels in the first place). I don't get OTA in my location.

Anyway, I haven't seen this mentioned, but some HDTVs do not allow stretch mode on HD channels (digital signal). In fact, that is the case with my 5-year-old Sony plasma, a 2-inch set. When you try to use the stretch mode, it says "not possible with 720p signal" or something along those lines. It was just the way Sony decided to go with the early plasmas. Other manufacturers allowed it. In fact, my new plasma does allow you to stretch the HD signals, but my Sony, still going strong (even with the bars) does not. I did not try stretching with the H20 remote, but when I let the receiver stretch the picture on my HR20, it looks like crap. So I use the TVs' wide screen modes, when I can, that is.

All in all, it's not a good thing if you happen to want to use the bars, even though today's plasma sets are really not as prone to burn-in as the older models. Directv should fix it somehow, if it is there fault.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Speak for yourself. I have never watched anything stretched (unless you count TNT's stretch o vision) in the year I have owned my 16:9 tv. I can't stand watching things not in the OAR.


*+1*


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## noladaoh (Aug 21, 2006)

I have a Pioneer plasma and am aware of burn-in potential. When watching my HD locals through the HR20 I get 4:3 with the black bars. If I watch A D* channel (TBS for example) I get the thin black bars then the wider grey bars. However, I watch all my channels in native and that eliminates the thin black bars on all but the local channels, because they are in HD.

If this is a problem for you, you should set the HR20 to native and that will eliminate most thin black bars issues.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Just for the record I get a blue edge on one of my locals (off ota)


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

houskamp said:


> Just for the record I get a blue edge on one of my locals (off ota)


Ive seen that fairly often on some of my OTA's, I've also seen the white dashes and dots across the top or bottom (like a data stream) sometimes on the OTA locals.

Never even noticed the issue noted in the 1st post.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

I have attached three pictures.

1) HR10-250 - no "lip"
2&3) HR20 with "the lip"


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

say-what said:


> Ive seen that fairly often on some of my OTA's, I've also seen the white dashes and dots across the top or bottom (like a data stream) sometimes on the OTA locals.
> 
> Never even noticed the issue noted in the 1st post.


Those weird data stream elements are the result of underscan/overscan. On my plasma, I have two HD settings, one of which will allow a small amount of overscan thus eliminated those signals (cool feature). But it also has an HD2 setting that will deliver a perfectly formatted 16 x 9 HD picture when needed. The weird artifact-like dashes and dots are most obvious on NBC's HD affiliate where I live, but not so much on ABC and CBS.


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## Fish Man (Apr 22, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The complaint isn't about the pillar boxes... it is the "black lip" that is around the 4:3... when you are in Grey or Dark Grey mode (it is there too in black, you just can't see it).
> 
> So if you do select to use one of the grey's (which is less prone to burn-in), you will get that small "lip" and that is what the article is about...


Are you arguing that only DirecTV equipment has this problem?

If this lip is due to an error in their software, I'd suspect it to be easily correctable with an update.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

VeniceDre said:


> I worry about these thin black bars burning into the image.


The problem isn't the black somehow burns itself into the display, but that the rest of the display decays and the usually black area has a slower rate of decay.

This is primarily a CRT/Plasma issue and it can be mitigated by reducing contrast and brightness (the reason most buy CRT and Plasmas over the other technologies). This is another one of those "be careful what you ask for" issues.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Tugboat said:


> I have two HD settings, one of which will allow a small amount of overscan thus eliminated those signals (cool feature).


Additional scaling, however miniscule, can't be a good thing.


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## Fredfa (Mar 27, 2003)

Why put much stock in anyone who makes such a blatant error in his first sentence.

"Around 50 HD channels" beginning next month?

For months DirecTV has said, on the record, that it would provide 70 channels when the Direct 10 satellite become operational, and that was reiterated by Chase Carey today in the DirecTV quarterly conference call. And he repeated, specifically, that DirecTV would provide the promised 100 channels by year's end.

If a supposed "HD Guru" can't even get these on-the-record facts straight, why bother listen to whatever else he says?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Fish Man said:


> Are you arguing that only DirecTV equipment has this problem?
> 
> If this lip is due to an error in their software, I'd suspect it to be easily correctable with an update.


I am not arguing that at all... As I haven't had my HR10-250 active in over a year... And I don't have daily access to other peoples HD equipment (and when I do, I leave them at their settings... which is usually stretch, unless they ask me to).

So I don't know what other equipment out there does, or doesn't have this issue.

If it is something that can be corrected for, I am sure it will be.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Fredfa said:


> Why put much stock in anyone who makes such a blatant error in his first sentence.
> 
> "Around 50 HD channels" beginning next month?
> 
> ...


Because of the fact, based on announcements of channels (that have been confirmed), it is about 50 channels that are expected by the end of September.

Yes 70 are planned... and will be greatly appriciated... but "saying 50" especially two days before Chase re-itterates 70 by the end of Q3... and 100 by the end of Q4...... is not that far of a "false" statement.
-----------

The fact is... those little black "frame" lines are there.
The argument is what IMPACT does that have to the long term effect on individuals TV's...

I have a 4 year old plasma... and I don't have any major concerns for it... don't even have a major concern for those stations that black bars in their source.

I don't like the GREY... DARK GREY is okay, on my smaller SAT-GO... but on the plasma... it is BLACK backgrounds...

If that shortens the life of my expensive TV, but a few years.... I still get 15-20+ years out of it... something else is bound to go wrong with it before then. (I have a 6yr boy, and I know the day is comming when a baseball or something else goes through the glass).


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## Duffycoug (Apr 16, 2007)

I watch every SD program in stretch mode, do I have anything to worry about? I don't like the side bars and was worried about the burn in issue, and I definitely see the black edging that is referred to in the article when I use gray or dark gray...so I chose to go stetch 100% of the time.......non-issue for me??


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Duffycoug said:


> I watch every SD program in stretch mode, do I have anything to worry about? I don't like the side bars and was worried about the burn in issue, and I definitely see the black edging that is referred to in the article when I use gray or dark gray...so I chose to go stetch 100% of the time.......non-issue for me??


Non-Issue for you


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## Nachosgrande (Jul 11, 2007)

Only problem could be when an HD program displays commercials in 4:3 pillarbox - I hate that...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Nachosgrande said:


> Only problem could be when an HD program displays commercials in 4:3 pillarbox - I hate that...


A 30s individual commercial or even a 3 minute commercial brake is going to have NO net-effect of burn in on your system.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not arguing that at all... As I haven't had my HR10-250 active in over a year... And I don't have daily access to other peoples HD equipment (and when I do, I leave them at their settings... which is usually stretch, unless they ask me to).
> 
> So I don't know what other equipment out there does, or doesn't have this issue.
> 
> If it is something that can be corrected for, I am sure it will be.


See the pictures I posted. HR10-250 doesn't have the issue. Seems that the 4X3 image on the HR20 needs a little tweaking.


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## Charlutz (Jul 30, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Speak for yourself. I have never watched anything stretched (unless you count TNT's stretch o vision) in the year I have owned my 16:9 tv. I can't stand watching things not in the OAR.


+2

OAR all the way.

What I found annoying was that he said that the gray bars "prevent burn in" as if somehow the black bars created a problem that didn't exist otherwise. I always understood that the gray bars lessened the effect, but didn't prevent it. Seemed to create an emergency where in actuality the difference was one of degree.

Even more interesting, he didn't mention the HR20's screen saver, which I was pleasantly surprised to see when I switched from the HD tivos a couple weeks ago.

Tangent - if anyone still has their tivo, I just got $175 on a Buy it Now on ebay for one of mine. Appears I undersold as the second one is up to $225 with 3 hours to go.


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

Charlutz said:


> Tangent - if anyone still has their tivo, I just got $175 on a Buy it Now on ebay for one of mine. Appears I undersold as the second one is up to $225 with 3 hours to go.


I was getting $400-$450 per HR10-250 just 3-4 months ago... the market has gone bust now.


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## Philby (Jul 25, 2007)

maybe this should be posted in a separate topic - and maybe i should play around with it a little more - but I have to have my HR20 on "Stretch" mode for my TV to display a normal 4:3 image (at least the same size as a 4:3 image was from my prior cable STB). 

I have my TV set to "normal" (mostly because its big enough that SD doesn't need to be stretched to still be really big ) and when I have my HR20 set to pillar box it - its almost like the hr20 thinks my TV is set to stretch mode and so it displays the 4:3 image pillarboxed, but only in the 4:3 section of my screen, not the whole screen. Once i set it to stretch i see the 4:3 image normally (well what I call normal perhaps I'm wrong) with no bars added in by the HR20, and obviously black (lack of picture) bars on my tv.

anyone got any idea if I'm doing this correctly?


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Another interesting analysis of this issue.

I have a 50" plasma that is fed by both an HR10-250 and an HR20.

Grey Bar on HR20 measures 4 3/8"
Grey Bar on HR10-250 measures 4"1/8"

I thought the opposite would have been true. It would seem that maybe the grey bars aren't big enough, yet they are actually larger on the HR20 than the HR10. They need to increase the size of the broadcast, not the bars.


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## packfan909 (Oct 6, 2006)

My apologies for including "everyone" in my comment. In my experience, people and businesses with 16:9 tvs (especially plasmas) will stretch the image vs. watching OAR. Not many options at 42" and higher over a year ago ( when I purchased ).

4:3 is not going away anytime soon. And with the exception of HDNet Movies how can you be sure what you are watching is truely in the OAR? Guess "everyone" has that problem.

pf



Charlutz said:


> +2
> 
> OAR all the way.
> 
> ...


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## Charlutz (Jul 30, 2007)

packfan909 said:


> 4:3 is not going away anytime soon. And with the exception of HDNet Movies how can you be sure what you are watching is truely in the OAR? Guess "everyone" has that problem.


True. If the broadcaster is changing the AR, that's something else. I'm just not going to molest the image by stretching it. :nono:

PS - got $305 for my tivo.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

...and I think I've even seen a few HDNet movies that aren't showing the same aspect ratio as the DVD's.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

I think we could agree that when we are talking about 4:3 SD broadcasts, OAR is not really the term that should be used. I think the degradation of PQ when stretching or zooming a SD broadcast is far worse than dealing with the burn-in issue. As Earl said, if it reduces the TV life to 15 years, so be it. I usually replace my main TV every 10 years anyway.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Fredfa said:


> Why put much stock in anyone who makes such a blatant error in his first sentence.
> 
> "Around 50 HD channels" beginning next month?
> 
> ...


Hmmm...throw out the baby with the bath water? 

This was not the thrust of the article, so roundoff error is not a big deal to me. And his time frame is the beginning of the month, which might be accurate as they potentially roll out channels all fall...

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

VeniceDre said:


> Problem is there is a thin black bar on each side of the SD 4:3 image *before* the grey pillar bars... this unique to the HR20. You don't see it if you select black bars.


Actually I've seen this on the H20, HR20, and H21. BTW, in PIG/PIL, the black lip area is frequently removed (though sometimes at the cost of serious removal of the top/bottom the picture too!)

Note, if you have a 4:3 TV set to letterbox, the top/bottom horizontal black bars are removed. So I conclude that the system software can be adjusted to removed the lip areas.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Duffycoug (Apr 16, 2007)

Philby said:


> maybe this should be posted in a separate topic - and maybe i should play around with it a little more - but I have to have my HR20 on "Stretch" mode for my TV to display a normal 4:3 image (at least the same size as a 4:3 image was from my prior cable STB).
> 
> I have my TV set to "normal" (mostly because its big enough that SD doesn't need to be stretched to still be really big ) and when I have my HR20 set to pillar box it - its almost like the hr20 thinks my TV is set to stretch mode and so it displays the 4:3 image pillarboxed, but only in the 4:3 section of my screen, not the whole screen. Once i set it to stretch i see the 4:3 image normally (well what I call normal perhaps I'm wrong) with no bars added in by the HR20, and obviously black (lack of picture) bars on my tv.
> 
> anyone got any idea if I'm doing this correctly?


Do you have your HR20 set for Native on or off? If it's on, then you have to have it in stretch mode I think to send it in it's native format (unchanged)...sounds weird, but I think I read several posts about that.

PS - I got $375 for my HR10-250.


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## Slip Jigs (Oct 20, 2006)

MikeW said:


> I have attached three pictures.
> 
> 1) HR10-250 - no "lip"
> 2&3) HR20 with "the lip"


The HR10 is a HD box, correct? Just checking to make sure we're comparing apples to apples.

If this an issue unique to the HR20 - the question is "WHY?" - is the black lip part of the program or isn't it? if it is, then the 20 is simply giving a more accurate display of the content. If it isn't then there's something wrong with the box which could potentially damage a TV.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Yes...HR10 is the HD Tivo box. I made no changes to the display on my TV when switching between the two sources. The lip is not part of the program. It appears on all SD content.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

MikeW said:


> Yes...HR10 is the HD Tivo box. I made no changes to the display on my TV when switching between the two sources. The lip is not part of the program. It appears on all SD content.


 Now I have to ask you. How did you eliminate the possibility the the lip is actually part of the program but the HR10 (and most TVs) just don't display that part of the program? (Otherwise known as the overscan area or the area outside the Action Safe region.)

My theory is whereas the HR10 trims the lips (all four edges), the HR20 displays the left/right edges but does not display the top/bottom ones (in letterbox mode.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

Guys,

IIRC the issue of the lip began and was reported here after one of the first bunch of CEs. I don't think we were calling them CEs then.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Above I showed the measurements of the gray bars. Again, this is on the same monitor using the same display mode. In the measurements, the gray bar on the HR20 is actually a 1/4" larger than on the HR10. In other words, the HR10 needs to fill more screen than the HR20 and it does that with less "filler" on the sides.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> Hmmm...through out the baby with the bath water?
> 
> This was not the thrust of the article, so round error is not a bit deal to me. And his timeframe is the beginning of the month, which might be accurate as they potentially roll out channels all fall...
> 
> ...


Earl, Tom are you two seriously doubting Fredfa otherwise known as "the Man" AVS mod with almost 30,000 posts and runs the "Hot off the Press" thread?? If you believe the earnings call he is certainly right. That said I'd love to see the Mod squad rumble!!!!!!:listenup: :box: :new_popco


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## UTVLamented (Oct 18, 2006)

I have my HR20 set to Native=On, Stretch. With Native on, my Panny plasma's aspect control functions normally. I have the aspect set to 4:3 and SD broadcasts appear perfectly in 4:3 OAR with grey pillars and no black vertical stripes. I see this as a non-issue if you use these settings.


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## Philby (Jul 25, 2007)

Duffycoug said:


> Do you have your HR20 set for Native on or off? If it's on, then you have to have it in stretch mode I think to send it in it's native format (unchanged)...sounds weird, but I think I read several posts about that.
> 
> PS - I got $375 for my HR10-250.


I do have it set to native on...


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## Dazed & Confused (Jun 13, 2007)

Tugboat said:


> I can see that thin black line on my plasmas too. Always wondered why it was there, now I know it's got something to do with Directv's HD transmission. I never saw it before I moved to gray bars, of course, since it blended into black bars. Not sure if it's also true of OTA signals of HD channels that are not currently transmitting HD signal (which is why the large bars show up on HD channels in the first place). I don't get OTA in my location.
> 
> Anyway, I haven't seen this mentioned, but some HDTVs do not allow stretch mode on HD channels (digital signal). *In fact, that is the case with my 5-year-old Sony plasma, a 2-inch set*. When you try to use the stretch mode, it says "not possible with 720p signal" or something along those lines. It was just the way Sony decided to go with the early plasmas. Other manufacturers allowed it. In fact, my new plasma does allow you to stretch the HD signals, but my Sony, still going strong (even with the bars) does not. I did not try stretching with the H20 remote, but when I let the receiver stretch the picture on my HR20, it looks like crap. So I use the TVs' wide screen modes, when I can, that is.
> 
> All in all, it's not a good thing if you happen to want to use the bars, even though today's plasma sets are really not as prone to burn-in as the older models. Directv should fix it somehow, if it is there fault.


Holy mackerel, how close do you have to sit to that thing?

I keed......I keed


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## LR308er (Jun 28, 2007)

mr anderson said:


> While the argument is semi founded, it's a ridiculous argument as there are MANY ways to get around this issue.


While it's true that there are ways to get around it, including watching in stretch mode (something many of us don't do), the issue is that *people need to know that the problem exists, before it screws up their displays*.

In that respect, the article is helpful to the consuming public.

I'm seeing this information for the first time and sitting here thinking how glad I am that I got an LCD instead of plasma.

My relationship with D* has been contentious enough to this point.
If they had caused two black lines to be etched in my screen I'd probably be seeking legal remedies.

+1 on OAR
Miss America doesn't have a 40" waist. :nono2:


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Dazed & Confused said:


> Holy mackerel, how close do you have to sit to that thing?
> 
> I keed......I keed


Uh, typo time. 32-inch was the number I was looking for.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Agreed, LR308er. Forewarned is forearmed. 

Knowing about the potential for burn-in, I waited several years longer than I really wanted to before going HD, until LCD got big enough for me to buy the one I wanted. 

I've read that Plasma is more burn-resistant now but I wouldn't take it as gospel. I've also read that as LCD and other technologies become more economical, Plasma will become less common. 

Just as well. It's a shame to see burn in. I was at a home about 6 months ago where the centerpiece of the living room was a 60" plasma with a clear image of the HR10's Guide burned permanently into it. I'd be pretty P.O'd if that were me.


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## clueless (Dec 6, 2004)

I'm sure this will vary from set to set but to get around the black lip issue I turn native on and set the ratio to stretch. Then on my Panisonic plasma I set the ratio to 4:3. This "squishes" the stretched image back to the correct 4:3 ratio and I don't get the black lip. It also squishes all the HR20 menus down to fit into the 4:3 area. I'm sure the picture is degraded from all the scaling - but my eyes can't tell much (if any) of a difference.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

clueless said:


> I'm sure this will vary from set to set but to get around the black lip issue I turn native on and set the ratio to stretch. Then on my Panisonic plasma I set the ratio to 4:3. This "squishes" the stretched image back to the correct 4:3 ratio and I don't get the black lip. It also squishes all the HR20 menus down to fit into the 4:3 area. I'm sure the picture is degradied from all the scaling - but my eyes can't tell much (if any) of a difference.


When you wish to watch HD, do you have to switch the TV back to 16:9? I think I speak for many who have a wife who wouldn't want to go through these gyrations every time they watch TV.


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

mikeny said:


> Guys,
> 
> IIRC the issue of the lip began and was reported here after one of the first bunch of CEs. I don't think we were calling them CEs then.


The lip was there all the way back in August 2006 when I connected my first HR20 box... As Tom's indicated I've also seen it on the H20 model.


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## clueless (Dec 6, 2004)

MikeW said:


> When you wish to watch HD, do you have to switch the TV back to 16:9? I think I speak for many who have a wife who wouldn't want to go through these gyrations every time they watch TV.


 No I do not. When I switch to an HD channel it displays in 16:9 with NO gray bars. My guess it this might vary from one model to another. But it works for me.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

The question is...why doesn't DirecTV fix this?


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## mcbeevee (Sep 18, 2006)

How long would the lines need to be displayed before burn-in becomes an issue...5 minutes, 30 minutes, 2 hours, 24 hours? 

_Since I'm always watching "stretch-o-vision" and channel surfing, will be a non-issue for me. _


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

clueless said:


> I'm sure this will vary from set to set but to get around the black lip issue I turn native on and set the ratio to stretch. Then on my Panisonic plasma I set the ratio to 4:3. This "squishes" the stretched image back to the correct 4:3 ratio and I don't get the black lip. It also squishes all the HR20 menus down to fit into the 4:3 area. I'm sure the picture is degraded from all the scaling - but my eyes can't tell much (if any) of a difference.


Yes, this works. Some TVs do this automatically, others don't. It is a real PIA to have to change the picture mode when changing channels. For example last night I was flipping between two recordings. One was on an SD D* channel the other was an HD 16:9 show. It would be nice if the HR20 produced the gray side panels without the gutters.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

mcbeevee said:


> How long would the lines need to be displayed before burn-in becomes an issue...5 minutes, 30 minutes, 2 hours, 24 hours?
> 
> _Since I'm always watching "stretch-o-vision" and channel surfing, will be a non-issue for me. _


It's not neccessarily a short term event. The problem is those lines are in the same place every time you watch an SD broadcast. It really becomes an issue when you have this line continuously over the period of a year or two.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

mcbeevee said:


> How long would the lines need to be displayed before burn-in becomes an issue...5 minutes, 30 minutes, 2 hours, 24 hours?
> 
> _Since I'm always watching "stretch-o-vision" and channel surfing, will be a non-issue for me. _


It really depends on the TV. Older plasmas could suffer screen burn-in very quickly...they're better now. Also would depend on what you're watching and how much.


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## MRinDenver (Feb 3, 2003)

Those of us who have been lucky enough to have HDTVs since '99 or so have dealt with this for some time. Except for 4:3 commercial breaks when viewsing HD channels, this is a non-issue. And, since 95% of my HD viewing off my "list", I just jump through the commercials. .

What little SD I watch is stretched by my Pansonic. I am used to it, just like I am used to the 480i/480p images.

If you are at all careful, this is a complete non-starter.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

VeniceDre said:


> The lip was there all the way back in August 2006 when I connected my first HR20 box... As Tom's indicated I've also seen it on the H20 model.


Maybe so. Perhaps there were more posts about them after we the grey pillar bars actually appeared when we selected them.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

+1, a properly calibrated display has very little burn in, no matter what material you display on it.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

I just compared an SD channel on my HR10 and HR20 on the same channel (HGTV) on the same TV. The HR20 had the narrow black bars, the HR10 did not. So whatever is going on, it seems to be the box and not the signal.


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## ricktu (Aug 3, 2007)

I just switched from H10 & HR10-250 to a H20 & HR20. The H10 models did not exhibit the black "lip" issue on SD material. The Disney channel is a good test channel for this - never an issue for the H10 models. Both the H20 boxes show a definite black lip on most SD material, always on The Disney Channel. I have found no settings relative to native, resolution, etc., that fix it. Of course, I have the option of doing different stretch modes but I don't like those (and teaching the family about them is likely a non-starter.).

Seems to me this is absolutely a hardware/software issue in the boxes themselves (my guess is software). 

I always run with grey pillar boxes (on both old & new setup). 

Really hope DirectTV fixes this. I've got both a plasma and an LCD panel. I've been diligent with the Plasma, as I noticed at the beginning that watching 4x3 non pillar boxed did start causing some burn in (that reverted itself after I quickly moved to grey pillar boxes).


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## TheKnobber (Dec 28, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> Are you arguing that only DirecTV equipment has this problem?
> 
> If this lip is due to an error in their software, I'd suspect it to be easily correctable with an update.


Wow Fish Man, do you work for DirectTV or something??? First you flame the HD Guru for pointing out a specific problem with the HR-20 because you don't bother to actually read the article and understand the issue. Then when you finally realize from all the posters that there really is a specific HR-20 bug you "suspect" it would be "easily" correctable.

Wow. How do you come by this knowledge? Please explain how you know that its not a hardware issue or some other hard to solve problem? I'm not saying it is, but just saying that you should take a deep breath and relax before jumping on a well respected expert like the HD Guru and actually understand the issue before posting.


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