# Dumb, Dumb, Dumb!



## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Do the people that write the code for these boxes ever actually use them? Today I have to wonder.

Here's the reason for my anger...

I live in the Northeast and my dish is covered with snow today but that's not such a big deal as I have an antenna connected to my HR20 so I can watch the NFL w/o problems - or so I thought.

Every so often today I got a prompt about the box not getting guide data which is understandable as it cannot get any info as the dish is covered in snow.

At about 10 pm while I was watching the Sunday night game, I was probably an hour behind live at the time, I got a prompt about the guide data again. This time it said that a reboot usually fixes the problem.

I was not asked if I wanted to reboot, I was just shown a screen with one choice, "OK", and then the machine rebooted. A reboot on this machine takes about 18 minutes.

When the machine came up it could not find the signal and now I cannot watch TV off my antenna as it won't let me bring up the guide or enter a channel number.

I called DirecTV and after 15 minutes of the tech researching he said that I cannot use the antenna connection if the sat signal isn't active.

This is infuriating!


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Why don't you go brush the snow off the dish?


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

The dish sits at the peak of an 8/12 roof that has about 8" of snow on it. Slipping off the roof could be fatal. I'll wait for the sun to work its magic.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Next time try "dumping" it into a recording and watching it.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

...why didn't you simply connect the antenna directly to the display temporarily? Buy a large squirt gun to clear your dish in the future.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Thanks for the suggestion but what would I have gotten from that except for the hour I was 'behind'? Would the box have thought better than to reboot on me because I was recording? 

I still cannot get over these two things:
1. ask before doing something so disruptive like rebooting
2. don't disable the antenna b/c of a sat signal


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## moghedien (Dec 3, 2007)

If the Directv box doesn't get the satellite signal, it displays a message stating 'your receiver has not received guide information from the satellite for (x) hours. Please contact Directv Customer Service (920). After 10 hours, the box will reset and if you still don't have signal, you will get no guide, no ability to tune any channel, satellite or OTA. I wish this time period were several days, so that I could get some use from my receiver while I am waiting for the service appointment...


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

It would take about 20 minutes to move everything and disconnect the antenna and then scan with the TV and by then I would have lost my 1 hour behind + 18 min reboot + 20 minutes.

My dish sits near the peak of my roof. It is about 40' off the ground and I'd need to be about 40' away from the dish to see it from the ground. I cannot imagine anything non DoD that could propel a liquid that high and far with enough energy to melt away all the snow/ice off the dish but I'm open to suggestions.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"dfd" said:


> Thanks for the suggestion but what would I have gotten from that except for the hour I was 'behind'? Would the box have thought better than to reboot on me because I was recording?
> 
> I still cannot get over these two things:
> 1. ask before doing something so disruptive like rebooting
> 2. don't disable the antenna b/c of a sat signal


You ignored the signal issues multiple times according to your original post. You could have reconnected the antenna directly to your display after the first alert or you also could have used a broom or something to clear enough snow. I'm only 5'10...an 8.5' roof and another 1-2' for the dish height means that my arms extended over my head plus the length of a snow removal tool (such as a broom) would only need to be about 5' in length to clear the snow. A standard broom is 4-5' long. Unless my math is off.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"dfd" said:


> It would take about 20 minutes to move everything and disconnect the antenna and then scan with the TV and by then I would have lost my 1 hour behind + 18 min reboot + 20 minutes.
> 
> My dish sits near the peak of my roof. It is about 40' off the ground and I'd need to be about 40' away from the dish to see it from the ground. I cannot imagine anything non DoD that could propel a liquid that high and far with enough energy to melt away all the snow/ice off the dish but I'm open to suggestions.


You said you got the notice throughout the day, but the reboot didn't happen until 10 PM. I would have thought, "hmm...maybe I should do something." Occasional dish snow removal in the northeast is a given. If you can't access the dish, have a backup plan for TV viewing during winter weather. Split your antenna signal to both the HR20 and the display and put up with live TV until you get a signal back.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Hoosier205 said:


> You ignored the signal issues multiple times according to your original post. You could have reconnected the antenna directly to your display after the first alert or you also could have used a broom or something to clear enough snow. I'm only 5'10...an 8.5' roof and another 1-2' for the dish height means that my arms extended over my head plus the length of a snow removal tool (such as a broom) would only need to be about 5' in length to clear the snow. A standard broom is 4-5' long. Unless my math is off.


8/12 is the pitch of my roof. For every foot of run it rises 8 inches - it is too steep to mess with in the snow/ice. There is no reaching it with any broom but the flying kind and my wife is out haunting others with that one.

Yes, I could have connected the TV if I knew that the alternative was to lose everything. Maybe if I knew that was going to happen I would have. Maybe the developers who did know that was going to happen could have been kind enough to tell me in a prompt on the screen.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"dfd" said:


> 8/12 is the pitch of my roof. For every foot of run it rises 8 inches - it is too steep to mess with in the snow/ice. There is no reaching it with any broom but the flying kind and my wife is out haunting others with that one.
> 
> Yes, I could have connected the TV if I knew that the alternative was to lose everything. Maybe if I knew that was going to happen I would have. Maybe the developers who did know that was going to happen could have been kind enough to tell me in a prompt on the screen.


The multiple notices that there was an issue were a hint. It was trying to resolve the issue since you had not. You chose to watch programming from a buffer while having signal issues.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I would not be without one of these:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...v66e-.74-raven-and-prodelin-dish-(hsslngrfkit)

I have owned one for 3 years and no outages for snow.


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## rpe33 (Sep 3, 2011)

I don't know why everyone is giving you a hard time over this. If you could go up to your roof and clear the snow I'm sure you would have. Forcing you to reboot is stupid...they should give you the option to reboot when you want to. I love DirecTV but it's in no way perfect.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

dfd said:


> 8/12 is the pitch of my roof. For every foot of run it rises 8 inches - it is too steep to mess with in the snow/ice. There is no reaching it with any broom but the flying kind and my wife is out haunting others with that one.
> 
> Yes, I could have connected the TV if I knew that the alternative was to lose everything. Maybe if I knew that was going to happen I would have. Maybe the developers who did know that was going to happen could have been kind enough to tell me in a prompt on the screen.


You need one of those rear car window wipers up there with a remote.

I have always said someone could watch a dvrs recordings anywhere if they had it connected to a battery backup when they moved it.
I had to revise that thinking the other day when one of my hr20's was disconnected for 24 hrs and kept rebooting on its own.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Hoosier205 said:


> The multiple notices that there was an issue were a hint. It was trying to resolve the issue since you had not. You chose to watch programming from a buffer while having signal issues.


I agree with what you about what I did. There was no hint the box would brick itself though.

Why should a box do that? In many parts of the country we get snow, lots of snow at times. We can get storms lasting more than 10 hours and to have the box do this just seems dumb.

I have been given suggestions and I appreciate that but I still cannot understand why DirecTV decided that this was the correct way for the box to react to a loss of signal.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

armophob said:


> You need one of those rear car window wipers up there with a remote.
> 
> I have always said someone could watch a dvrs recordings anywhere if they had it connected to a battery backup when they moved it.
> I had to revise that thinking the other day when one of my hr20's was disconnected for 24 hrs and kept rebooting on its own.


How funny you mention that. While clearing the snow off my Expedition today I broke my rear wiper.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

And breaking your rear wiper doesn't keep your car from starting.

I understand your frustration.


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

Phil T said:


> I would not be without one of these:
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...v66e-.74-raven-and-prodelin-dish-(hsslngrfkit)
> 
> I have owned one for 3 years and no outages for snow.


It appears that you may have missed this post. If your dish is 40' off the ground I would invest in one for sure, falling from a 3 - 4 level home would be fatal. In the mean time I would consider splitting the OTA signal and connecting your TV to the antenna now so you can switch in the future.

Good luck and be safe.


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> The multiple notices that there was an issue were a hint. It was trying to resolve the issue since you had not. You chose to watch programming from a buffer **provided from an antenna source*** while having signal issues with satellite, which shouldn't matter.


*[MOD EDIT]*FIFY. Nice assumption he could get to his dish with a broom.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Hoosier205 said:


> ... *I'm only 5'10...an 8.5' roof and another 1-2' for the dish height means that my arms extended over my head plus the length of a snow removal tool (such as a broom) would only need to be about 5' in length to clear the snow. A standard broom is 4-5' long. Unless my math is off*.


8/12 refers to the slope of his roof -- 8 inches downslope for every foot -- very steep, and his dish is 40' off the ground, not 8.5 ft.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Great how once again a shortcoming of DirecTV Engineering is somehow the fault of the paying customer….

Give me a break!


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

dfd said:


> Do the people that write the code for these boxes ever actually use them? Today I have to wonder.
> 
> Here's the reason for my anger...
> 
> ...


Most electronic messages will default to what is shown if you do not change the choice.
I have not had this problem so I am asking if anyone else has and when the message is on the screen press the "Exit" button. Will that stop the reboot ? If you get this situation again, press the "Exit" button and see if it works.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> Great how once again a shortcoming of DirecTV Engineering is somehow the fault of the paying customer&#8230;.
> 
> Give me a break!


Cummon Mike - I don't see this as "the fault of" anyone.

There's no engineering I'm aware of that makes snow "invisible".

Having lived in that climate more years than not myself (but no longer)...it's an unfortunate price you pay for residing in the "great white north".

I have vivid memories over decades of time of *both* cable and sat services being interrupted in winter because of snow cover. Ironically, the cable "went out" far more than the sat signal, but in both cases....it happened < 1-2 times a year.

There's also nothing a customer can do because their roof happens to have a steep pitch and that's where their dish is mounted. Despite now living in a much warmer climate...I still happen to have a steep-pitch roof scenario here at this time.

I made a conscious choice 12 years ago for a pole-mounted Dish and have never had a problem with it. In the event of any required service, or even just a re-alignment...a tech can walk right up to it to deal with it. Perhaps that's an option for the OP once the snow season ends.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Scott Kocourek said:


> It appears that you may have missed this post. If your dish is 40' off the ground I would invest in one for sure, falling from a 3 - 4 level home would be fatal. In the mean time I would consider splitting the OTA signal and connecting your TV to the antenna now so you can switch in the future.
> 
> Good luck and be safe.


I will look at this come spring time.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Cummon Mike - I don't see this as "the fault of" anyone.
> 
> There's no engineering I'm aware of that makes snow "invisible".
> 
> ...


Not an option. I am barely clearing a massive oak in the adjacent lot as is. I probably only have a few years left before I will not be able to get the HD signals.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dfd said:


> Not an option. I am barely clearing a massive oak in the adjacent lot as is. I probably only have a few years left before I will not be able to get the HD signals.


That's very unfortunate. I have some tall pines here as well, which helped contribute to the choice of a pole dish (as well as a steep roof).

Finding a spot to get a clear line of sight is the key as you know...so perhaps if there is another option somewhere along a wall or lower on your roof line...that might be another alternative.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Cummon Mike - I don't see this as "the fault of" anyone.
> 
> There's no engineering I'm aware of that makes snow "invisible".
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about the snow in the dish... I'm talking about dfd missing his game because of a forced reboot and then posts like those from Hoosier205 and others that suggest it is somehow dfd's fault the receiver forced a reboot that did nothing but make his DVR useless.:nono2:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> I'm not talking about the snow in the dish... I'm talking about dfd missing his game because of a forced reboot and then posts like those from Hoosier205 and others that suggest it is somehow dfd's fault the receiver forced a reboot that did nothing but make his DVR useless.:nono2:


Forced reboots are not anyone's friend. 

But still...that's human intervention on a schedule...not engineering.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Forced reboots are not anyone's friend.
> 
> But still...that's human intervention on a schedule...not engineering.


My weekly reboots are a different story. The only human intervention to dfd's game was DirecTV engineering!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> My weekly reboots are a different story. The only human intervention to dfd's game was DirecTV engineering!


Actually, the timing of those is triggered by a person.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

This would probably be a good situation for a dish heater. It's the safest way to clear the snow from the dish.

Mike


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Mike Greer said:


> My weekly reboots are a different story. The only human intervention to dfd's game was DirecTV engineering!


Correct.

It would be just as easy to ASK the customer if the/she wants to reboot or postpone it for a period of time. Gosh, even the guys in Redmond figured that one out eventually.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dfd said:


> Correct.
> 
> It would be just as easy to ASK the customer if the/she wants to reboot or postpone it for a period of time. Gosh, even the guys in Redmond figured that one out eventually.


How many times should it ASK the customer before trying to fix the problem? How many notifications did you receiver before it finally rebooted?

Mike


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dfd said:


> It would be just as easy to ASK the customer if the/she wants to reboot or postpone it for a period of time. Gosh, even the guys in Redmond figured that one out eventually.


You said yourself you had multiple notifications of failure to acquire guide data. Those ask you if you want to reboot now or later. You were asked!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Actually, the timing of those is triggered by a person.


In dfd's case that 'person' was DirecTV engineering! Or maybe he could have just left it on the 'ok' to restart screen and hit 'ok' after the snow melted?

He missed his game because of DirecTV engineering. They gave him the option of restarting and missing his game or not restarting and missing his game.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Mike Bertelson said:


> How many times should it ASK the customer before trying to fix the problem? How many notifications did you receiver before it finally rebooted?
> 
> Mike





RunnerFL said:


> You said yourself you had multiple notifications of failure to acquire guide data. Those ask you if you want to reboot now or later. You were asked!


He could have restared sooner... And then he would have missed the entire game. Right?


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

Mike Greer said:


> He could have restared sooner... And then he would have missed the entire game. Right?


He would have had time to hook up the antenna to his TV, do the scan and then watch the game, so yes he should have restarted earlier.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Mike Bertelson said:


> How many times should it ASK the customer before trying to fix the problem? How many notifications did you receiver before it finally rebooted?
> 
> Mike


It should ask until the customer says yes, that is the way Windows updates work. What harm is caused by letting the customer continue w/o rebooting? In my case, I knew a reboot would not fix the problem as there is still snow on the dish.

I probably got three messages about no signal before the box rebooted. Even the last prompt didn't say that it was going to reboot but something more along the lines of, 'a reboot usually solves the problem', and then voila rage.

On the bright side, Romo did as Roma does...


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

dfd said:


> Do the people that write the code for these boxes ever actually use them? Today I have to wonder.
> [...]


The answer to the question you asked is yes.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> He could have restared sooner... And then he would have missed the entire game. Right?


Yes, he could have restarted sooner. He had ample warning that a reboot was imminent and he could have taken steps to keep from missing the game. The reason he was forced to reboot is because he chose not to many times before that. His choice... Also his choice not to have some way of clearing snow from his dish.

Keep in mind that DirecTV can't control the weather Mike. Their engineering department doesn't develop machines that control climate.

Maybe you don't realize that a DVR needs what is called "guide data" and when it doesn't have this "guide data" it does whatever it can to try to fix itself so it can get the "guide data". The unit has no way of knowing why it can't get a signal and no way of knowing that after a reboot it still won't be able to get that signal.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Scott Kocourek said:


> He would have had time to hook up the antenna to his TV, do the scan and then watch the game, so yes he should have restarted earlier.


Or DirecTV could have just not forced the reboot and everything would have been fine. He knew what the problem was and did not 'need' to reboot at all.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> He knew what the problem was and *chose not to do anything to resolve it*


Fixed it for you.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

RunnerFL said:


> Yes, he could have restarted sooner. He had ample warning that a reboot was imminent and he could have taken steps to keep from missing the game. The reason he was forced to reboot is because he chose not to many times before that. His choice... Also his choice not to have some way of clearing snow from his dish.
> 
> Keep in mind that DirecTV can't control the weather Mike. Their engineering department doesn't develop machines that control climate.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize that a DVR needs what is called "guide data" and when it doesn't have this "guide data" it does whatever it can to try to fix itself so it can get the "guide data". The unit has no way of knowing why it can't get a signal and no way of knowing that after a reboot it still won't be able to get that signal.


A reboot was NOT needed and did not need to be done.

DirecTV can't control their own DVRs let alone control the weather!:lol:

As I said - DirecTV could have just not forced the reboot and everything would have been fine. He knew what the problem was and did not 'need' to reboot at all.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> A reboot was NOT needed and did not need to be done.


Again... The DVR has no way of knowing it is a weather condition blocking signal.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

A warning to all. Keep it Civil, discuss the TOPIC and not each other.

I've deleted a couple of posts that were off topic. If you're missing one that's why.

:backtotop

Mike


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Mike Bertelson said:


> A warning to all. Keep it Civil, discuss the TOPIC and not each other.
> 
> I've deleted a couple of posts that were off topic. If you're missing one that's why.
> 
> ...


My apologies Mr. Bertelson!

It just really gets under my skin when someone posts a gripe/rant/complaint and the pile-on begins on how their problem is their own fault.

My suggestion to DirecTV engineering: Don't force a reboot when no guide info is available. This has happened to plenty of people - Snow, new roof, hurricanes, tornados etc can all cause dish problems and there is no need to take away the limited use the customer has by forcing a restart that will not fix the snow covered dish, missing dish or misaligned dish.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Yes, he could have restarted sooner. He had ample warning that a reboot was imminent and he could have taken steps to keep from missing the game. The reason he was forced to reboot is because he chose not to many times before that. His choice... Also his choice not to have some way of clearing snow from his dish.
> 
> Keep in mind that DirecTV can't control the weather Mike. Their engineering department doesn't develop machines that control climate.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize that a DVR needs what is called "guide data" and when it doesn't have this "guide data" it does whatever it can to try to fix itself so it can get the "guide data". The unit has no way of knowing why it can't get a signal and no way of knowing that after a reboot it still won't be able to get that signal.


There were warnings about the signal.

There were no warnings about a reboot coming other than the final prompt that a reboot usually fixes the problem. Even the final prompt wasn't clear that the box was going to reboot just that a reboot usually fixes the problem.

Please tell me why a message about lost signal should be understood by the customer that the box is about to reboot.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dfd said:


> There were warnings about the signal.


And that warning box also asks if you would like to reboot. I've seen it numerous times myself during heavy rainy days and/or hurricanes.



dfd said:


> Please tell me why a message about lost signal should be understood by the customer that the box is about to reboot.


Because it tells you it needs to reboot.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dfd said:


> There were warnings about the signal.
> 
> There were no warnings about a reboot coming other than the final prompt that a reboot usually fixes the problem. Even the final prompt wasn't clear that the box was going to reboot just that a reboot usually fixes the problem.
> 
> *Please tell me why a message about lost signal should be understood by the customer that the box is about to reboot*.


You're perfectly right to question how to respond to that prompt. Not everyone is familiar with all the screen prompts or messages.

That said... a reboot can be triggered by a number of things. Sometimes it fixes an issue, sometimes it doesn't.

You did nothing wrong, and there is no engineering that addresses the weather.

The viewing interruption experience was unfortunate, and hopefully can be avoided going forward.


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## RBTO (Apr 11, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Cummon Mike - I don't see this as "the fault of" anyone.
> 
> There's no engineering I'm aware of that makes snow "invisible".


There's good practice in engineering as in anything else. I feel for Mike's situation since he can't be expected to get the snow off his dish, and his system is operational otherwise. It's standard practice when writing code to _not_ do the "do you want to reboot" and have the _only_ option as "ok" thing (a branch with no branch). That is dumb - which was implied in the original statement. I've seen this gufo several times in my own experience, and each time questioned the code writer's sanity (I've written my own share of code in my day).

If Mike is in a location where snow is regularly anticipated, it would pay him to get a dish heater for the inaccessible dish, which would prevent the problem in the first place, but his original statement about that particular box programming routine being stupid, is quite valid.


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

I had a similar issue a few weeks ago on a Sunday. The solution was simple. I made my son go up on the roof and clear the snow from the dish. 
I did, however, hold the ladder.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Mike Bertelson said:


> This would probably be a good situation for a dish heater. It's the safest way to clear the snow from the dish.
> 
> Mike


I do have to agree here. My dish is pole mounted on the ground but I still have a dish heater because I'm too lazy to go out and brush the snow off!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

RBTO said:


> There's good practice in engineering as in anything else. I feel for Mike's situation since he can't be expected to get the snow off his dish, and his system is operational otherwise. It's standard practice when writing code to _not_ do the "do you want to reboot" and have the _only_ option as "ok" thing (a branch with no branch). That is dumb - which was implied in the original statement. I've seen this gufo several times in my own experience, and each time questioned the code writer's sanity (I've written my own share of code in my day).
> 
> If Mike is in a location where snow is regularly anticipated, it would pay him to get a dish heater for the inaccessible dish, which would prevent the problem in the first place, but his original statement about that particular box programming routine being stupid, is quite valid.


Agreed - but if you're talking about me as in 'Mike' - I just jumped into the cross-fire. It is dfd that had the trouble and started the thread.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

I WANT MORE said:


> I had a similar issue a few weeks ago on a Sunday. The solution was simple. I made my son go up on the roof and clear the snow from the dish.
> I did, however, hold the ladder.


Kids are great aren't they!?


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

RBTO said:


> If dfd is in a location where snow is regularly anticipated, it would pay him to get a dish heater for the inaccessible dish, which would prevent the problem in the first place, but his original statement about that particular box programming routine being stupid, is quite valid.


The Antenna/Dish Heater is the way to go if you anticipate snow every year and you will thank yourself many times when you No Longer Miss a Game!!!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Cummon Mike - I don't see this as "the fault of" anyone.
> 
> There's no engineering I'm aware of that makes snow "invisible".
> 
> ...


Having crawled on many roofs over the years I swore never to buy another house with a high roof or one that was severely slanted. I went from a Cape Cod to a raised ranch almost 30 years ago and haven't regretted it since. I've never had a problem with snow, but if I do, my dish is very near the side of my house and easily reached by a 20' ladder and a broom.

Now, the guys who work for D*'s local contractor have been read OSHA's High Work Rules and Ladder Safety Rules and are really leery of roof mounts. Ladders are one of the most dangerous devices you can use and, in a case such as the TS's home can be deadly. In his case, just getting to the dish will require two men and other safety considerations. Done properly, it's still a dangerous job.

@any installer reading this post: Some of you have been told to keep an eye out for an OSHA inspector. OSHA does not send it's inspectors out looking for infractions. As an employee, it's your right to call them about any job you're given that you think is unsafe, before or after you do the job.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> I do have to agree here. My dish is pole mounted on the ground but I still have a dish heater because I'm too lazy to go out and brush the snow off!


Still have to go up on that very dangerous roof and install the heater. Not a DIY job, by any means.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

I WANT MORE said:


> I had a similar issue a few weeks ago on a Sunday. The solution was simple. I made my son go up on the roof and clear the snow from the dish.
> *I did, however, hold the ladder.*


You did the right thing. ALL extension ladders require the ladder to be either "footed" as you did or tied off securely to something on the roof. And since nobody ever considers that someone might have to get up on those really high roofs, you'll play hell trying to tie a ladder off.

Rich


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

I have always had my dish mounted low enough to be able to brush off the heavy wet snow when it loses signal. Currenty, it's just outside of my basement door.

As for the reboot and losing the buffer, if possible, press the record button to save it. I very rarely watch behind the buffer, I will record and then watch behind.



dfd said:


> Not an option. I am barely clearing a massive oak in the adjacent lot as is. I probably only have a few years left before I will not be able to get the HD signals.


An option here might be to mount the dish as close to the oak and aim below the branches.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jdspencer said:


> I have always had my dish mounted low enough to be able to brush off the heavy wet snow when it loses signal. Currenty, it's just outside of my basement door.
> 
> As for the reboot and losing the buffer, if possible, press the record button to save it. I very rarely watch behind the buffer, I will record and then watch behind.
> 
> An option here might be to mount the dish as close to the oak and aim below the branches.


*There's always a Plan B:*


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"Nick" said:


> 8/12 refers to the slope of his roof -- 8 inches downslope for every foot -- very steep, and his dish is 40' off the ground, not 8.5 ft.


Yep, I misread that.


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## pfp (Apr 28, 2009)

Hey, you don't have a sat signal, but go ahead and watch whatever you have recorded and/or anything OTA.

Hey, you don't have a sat signal, but go ahead and watch whatever you have recorded and/or anything OTA.

Hey, you don't have a sat signal, but go ahead and watch whatever you have recorded and/or anything OTA.

Hey, you don't have a sat signal so I'm gonna reboot and if you still don't have one afterwards go read a book because you will no longer be able to watch your recorded stuff and/or OTA.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"Mike Greer" said:


> I'm not talking about the snow in the dish... I'm talking about dfd missing his game because of a forced reboot and then posts like those from Hoosier205 and others that suggest it is somehow dfd's fault the receiver forced a reboot that did nothing but make his DVR useless.:nono2:


He has warnings though out the day...it didn't reboot until 10 PM. He did absolutely nothing about it even though he lives an area synonymous with large snowfalls and it is party of the routine. He could have reconnected his antenna directly to his display and watched the game live until he devised a way to regain his signal. DirecTV can't control the weather and the receiver had no way of knowing it was snow related. If gave multiple notices of an issue and then attempted a reboot. The fact that the customer was watching from a buffer was coincidental.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"Mike Greer" said:


> He could have restared sooner... And then he would have missed the entire game. Right?


False. He receive them throughout the day and chose to ignore them until the reboot at 10 PM.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"Mike Greer" said:


> A reboot was NOT needed and did not need to be done.


The receiver didn't know that. It attempted the only troubleshooting function available to it after the error was repeatedly ignored.


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> He has warnings though out the day...it didn't reboot until 10 PM. He did absolutely nothing about it even though he lives an area synonymous with large snowfalls and it is party of the routine. He could have reconnected his antenna directly to his display and watched the game live until he devised a way to regain his signal. DirecTV can't control the weather and the receiver had no way of knowing it was snow related. If gave multiple notices of an issue and then attempted a reboot. The fact that the customer was watching from a buffer was coincidental.


LOL - you're serious? A paying customer, watching TV, is "coincidental?" Also, feel free to continue to ignore that he was watching TV on a connection that WAS NOT IMPACTED BY THIS MESSAGE. Of course he "ignored" it, it wasn't applicable! Only the badly-built reboot "message" made it applicable.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

pfp said:


> Hey, you don't have a sat signal, but go ahead and watch whatever you have recorded and/or anything OTA.
> 
> Hey, you don't have a sat signal, but go ahead and watch whatever you have recorded and/or anything OTA.
> 
> ...


Exactly, never fully understood why the HR's become doorstops without a sat signal. It has happened so many times over the years, especially during long thunderstorms/hurricanes. Very frustrating.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"hancox" said:


> LOL - you're serious? A paying customer, watching TV, is "coincidental?" Also, feel free to continue to ignore that he was watching TV on a connection that WAS NOT IMPACTED BY THIS MESSAGE. Of course he "ignored" it, it wasn't applicable! Only the badly-built reboot "message" made it applicable.


The fact that he was watching from a buffer, rather than a recording or live TV was coincidental. Not much can be done if the customer doesn't do anything for themselves based on the realities of their geographic location and multiple warnings.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

He's making a comeback in this thread...


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

Why bother having a message at all, in that case? If actually using the box is a "coincedence," just reboot after 30 mins of 771's. Why not? :nono2:


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> He has warnings though out the day...it didn't reboot until 10 PM. He did absolutely nothing about it even though he lives an area synonymous with large snowfalls and it is party of the routine. He could have reconnected his antenna directly to his display and watched the game live until he devised a way to regain his signal. DirecTV can't control the weather and the receiver had no way of knowing it was snow related. If gave multiple notices of an issue and then attempted a reboot. The fact that the customer was watching from a buffer was coincidental.





Hoosier205 said:


> False. He receive them throughout the day and chose to ignore them until the reboot at 10 PM.





Hoosier205 said:


> The receiver didn't know that. It attempted the only troubleshooting function available to it after the error was repeatedly ignored.





Hoosier205 said:


> The fact that he was watching from a buffer, rather than a recording or live TV was coincidental. Not much can be done if the customer doesn't do anything for themselves based on the realities of their geographic location and multiple warnings.


Maybe you need to read his posts again. When did it tell him it was going to reboot for him if he didn't?

The messages were about not being able to update the guide information... He didn't care about the guide - why would he restart? He couldn't get a signal and a reboot was not needed.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree....


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

There is no excuse for this. Period.

Software is suppose to be designed for the *end user*. Software is suppose to be designed to gracefully handle *any reasonable potential problem*.

Yes, I am an expert - 25+ years as a high-level software engineer in a Fortune 500 software company.

This software behavior is completely unnecessary. Could have just as easily had a LNB, SWM or SWM power supply failure. *Never* should a reboot be forced (and non-obvious ways to cancel are no good either).

What happens when your CHECK ENGINE light comes on in your auto? Does it shut off automatically after a few hours (even if you are flying down the freeway) and then not allow you to restart it?

This is so basic and so telling of what a POS DTV software engineering practices are. Actually, it's not engineering at all.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

The only exception to that would be the high temp warning. That message stays up and says it will shut down by force if it doesn't get corrected. It will shut down. That is the time that behavior should occur.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> The only exception to that would be the high temp warning. That message stays up and says it will shut down by force if it doesn't get corrected. It will shut down. That is the time that behavior should occur.


Yes, but to be pedantic, that would be a shutdown, not a reboot


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Fair point.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"Mike Greer" said:


> Maybe you need to read his posts again. When did it tell him it was going to reboot for him if he didn't?
> 
> The messages were about not being able to update the guide information... He didn't care about the guide - why would he restart? He couldn't get a signal and a reboot was not needed.
> 
> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree....


You can agree to disagree if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that OP ignored the situation and chose to watch from a buffer on a receiver that that reported signal issues. There isn't much a provider can do when the customer takes no responsibility for their own situation. The fact is that an inanimate object did more to try and rectify the situation.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

To be clear...the situation could have been avoided in more than one way.

That said (and re-stated many times in this thread), nothing can correct the OP's situation from when it happened. Maybe we can just chalk this off as "lessons learned" and hope that the circumstances don't repeat themselves in the future.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> You can agree to disagree if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that OP ignored the situation and chose to watch from a buffer on a receiver that that reported signal issues. There isn't much a provider can do when the customer takes no responsibility for their own situation. The fact is that an inanimate object did more to try and rectify the situation.


The situation didn't need to be rectified. He was watching OTA.

I call uncle!:lol: Obviously I'm not going to convince you of anything - the only thing I can hope for is that someone from DirecTV will happen upon this thread and give it a little thought... It would be such a simple thing for them to fix...


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That said (and re-stated many times in this thread), nothing can correct the OP's situation from when it happened. Maybe we can just chalk this off as "lessons learned" and hope that the circumstances don't repeat themselves in the future.


He had better get a Dish Heater or he may experience this problem again when it Snows.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Hoosier205 said:


> False. He receive them throughout the day and chose to ignore them until the reboot at 10 PM.


He didn't ignore them, he acknowledged them.

He also didn't choose to take correct action, he had no choice.

The receiver had another troubleshooting option -- ask the user. Tell the user to check the dish for obstructions, and if the message still persisted after the dish was checked to either reboot or contact D* at his earliest convenience. That way if the user knows the obstruction is there, he can just ignore the message.

Tivo just has a warning message about guide data running out in x days, which will make the DVR stop recording as expected. It does not force a reboot.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Richierich said:


> He had better get a Dish Heater or he may experience this problem again when it Snows.


Or just get a Tivo and do OTA!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> To be clear...the situation could have been avoided in more than one way.


It may be clear to you and me - but not to everyone!

And it's only clear to me now - I probably would have done the same thing.... It was working fine - why would I restart.

I now know that if a DirecTV receiver isn't connected to a dish or has an alignment problem that I have only a short time before I'm done....

Didn't know that before today!


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"Mike Greer" said:


> The situation didn't need to be rectified. He was watching OTA.
> 
> I call uncle!:lol: Obviously I'm not going to convince you of anything - the only thing I can hope for is that someone from DirecTV will happen upon this thread and give it a little thought... It would be such a simple thing for them to fix...


He was having signal issues, of course something needed to be rectified. Yes, he was watching OTA...but while utilizing a devices that is dependent upon that signal. If you choose a satellite provider then you should take into account its drawbacks as well. I deal with heavy winter snowfall, severe thunderstorms, and tornados. So, I have the dish mounted where I can access it. If I had to mount it higher, I would have a heater. I also have an antenna split to both my display and my AM21. So, when I lose signal I can still watch my locals. Basic planning for solutions to Mother Nature's intervention.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> He was having signal issues, of course something needed to be rectified. Yes, he was watching OTA...but while utilizing a devices that is dependent upon that signal. If you choose a satellite provider then you should take into account its drawbacks as well. I deal with heavy winter snowfall, severe thunderstorms, and tornados. So, I have the dish mounted where I can access it. If I had to mount it higher, I would have a heater. I also have an antenna split to both my display and my AM21. So, when I lose signal I can still watch my locals. Basic planning for solutions to Mother Nature's intervention.


Double Uncle!


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"bobcamp1" said:


> He also didn't choose to take correct action, he had no choice.


That is not true. He did nothing to plan ahead for what should have been obvious snow related issues in that region and choose not to seek other alternatives for using his OTA connection.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

Funny that an inanimate object took more initiative.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Hoosier205 said:


> That is not true. He did nothing to plan ahead for what should have been obvious snow related issues in that region and choose not to seek other alternatives for using his OTA connection.


Funny I thought I was planning ahead by connecting an antenna to my roof top rig.

My HR10-250 would never have done this to me.

If the prompts said what the box was going to do I might have taken a different action(s).

I write requirements for developers all the time. There is no way that the poorly worded prompts and not giving the user a choice to delay a reboot would pass QC where I work.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

After thinking about it.... I'd bet that the forced reboot etc is by design to stop people from watching recorded content.... If someone disconnect the satellite feed and then cancel they don't want them to have that ability.

So how about this.... Keep in mind this is coming from a complete jack-ass (I took a quick poll and that was the result!). I think the brilliant minds at DirecTV Engineering could use this or something close to it as the message:

"Your receiver is not receiving a signal from DirecTV. You may be able to correct this by restarting your receiver or contacting customer support. If this problem is not correct within 12 hours your satellite receiver will stop functioning. You will no longer be able to use the receiver to watch live satellite programming, over-the-air programming or recorded content and will miss any future recordings until the problem is corrected." 

How hard would that be?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> How hard would that be?


Brace yourself.

I'd have to agree with you that all DVR manufacturers and all service providers could learn a few lessons about error message content. More specifically, many of those tend to be written by programmers for programmers (as opposed to actual end users).

Still...no matter what is done...there will always be some people who simply require hand-holding instructions when a problem occurs. It happens.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"dfd" said:


> Funny I thought I was planning ahead by connecting an antenna to my roof top rig.
> 
> My HR10-250 would never have done this to me.
> 
> ...


By ONLY connecting it to a device dependent upon satellite signal? Umm...no. You put off dealing with the issue and chose to blame the receiver in the end. It did what it could do to find a solution even though you didn't. Programmers or persons associated with programmers love to come here and say they could have/would have done better. It's basically a DBSTalk tradition. Hopefully you take some initiative to avoid a situation like this in the future.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Hoosier205 said:


> That is not true. He did nothing to plan ahead for what should have been obvious snow related issues in that region and choose not to seek other alternatives for using his OTA connection.


To be fair assuming that OTA would take the place of lost signal due to weather is reasonable. The OP didn't realize that loss of signal also meant loss of OTA through the receiver. If I was able to use OTA I probably would have made the same mistake; especially since I couldn't find anything in the user guide that indicates you can't use OTA when there is a temporary loss of signal. It makes sense to me.

Of course, the first time I ran into this problem I would make the necessary changes to make sure it doesn't happen again. But, what the OP did was reasonable and if he was able to use OTA after the reboot it would have been an annoyance instead of a loss of all reception.

Mike


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## TMan (Oct 31, 2007)

So I'm a little unclear here. I have an AM21 connected to my HR34. Am I to understand that the 34 will throw a fit and refuse to even give me AM21-supplied content if it can't achieve a satellite lock?

Redundancy during a dish blockage event is half the reason I got the AM21. I also have my dish mounted within broom's reach while standing on my deck. It cut out during a 14" blizzard two weeks ago until I brushed it off, but I hadn't yet put the AM21 in place so I didn't get to see how it would have behaved with the OTA signal if there was temporarily no satellite signal.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"Mike Bertelson" said:


> To be fair assuming that OTA would take the place of lost signal due to weather is reasonable. The OP didn't realize that loss of signal also meant loss of OTA through the receiver. If I was able to use OTA I probably would have made the same mistake; especially since I couldn't find anything in the user guide that indicates you can't use OTA when there is a temporary loss of signal. It makes sense to me.
> 
> Of course, the first time I ran into this problem I would make the necessary changes to make sure it doesn't happen again. But, what the OP did was reasonable and if he was able to use OTA after the reboot it would have been an annoyance instead of a loss of all reception.
> 
> Mike


Watching 90 minutes behind on a buffer with a device reporting signal issues multiple times throughout the day and choosing not to consider the situation is not what I would call reasonable.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Brace yourself.
> 
> I'd have to agree with you that all DVR manufacturers and all service providers could learn a few lessons about error message content. More specifically, many of those tend to be written by programmers for programmers (as opposed to actual end users).
> 
> Still...no matter what is done...there will always be some people who simply require hand-holding instructions when a problem occurs. It happens.





Mike Bertelson said:


> To be fair assuming that OTA would take the place of lost signal due to weather is reasonable. The OP didn't realize that loss of signal also meant loss of OTA through the receiver. If I was able to use OTA I probably would have made the same mistake; especially since I couldn't find anything in the user guide that indicates you can't use OTA when there is a temporary loss of signal. It makes sense to me.
> 
> Of course, the first time I ran into this problem I would make the necessary changes to make sure it doesn't happen again. But, what the OP did was reasonable and if he was able to use OTA after the reboot it would have been an annoyance instead of a loss of all reception.
> 
> Mike


Precisely!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

TMan said:


> So I'm a little unclear here. I have an AM21 connected to my HR34. Am I to understand that the 34 will throw a fit and refuse to even give me AM21-supplied content if it can't achieve a satellite lock?
> 
> Redundancy during a dish blockage event is half the reason I got the AM21. I also have my dish mounted within broom's reach while standing on my deck. It cut out during a 14" blizzard two weeks ago until I brushed it off, but I hadn't yet put the AM21 in place so I didn't get to see how it would have behaved with the OTA signal if there was temporarily no satellite signal.


Maybe... Eventually.... Who knows with the HR34?

I think we'll just have to assume that without a satellite signal you're done.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

Funny how satellite receivers require...a satellite signal.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> Funny how satellite receivers require...a satellite signal.


I think DirecTV could clarify their obscure messages but I think Mike's quote below is as close to reality as we're going to get:



Mike Bertelson said:


> To be fair assuming that OTA would take the place of lost signal due to weather is reasonable. The OP didn't realize that loss of signal also meant loss of OTA through the receiver. If I was able to use OTA I probably would have made the same mistake; especially since I couldn't find anything in the user guide that indicates you can't use OTA when there is a temporary loss of signal. It makes sense to me.
> 
> Of course, the first time I ran into this problem I would make the necessary changes to make sure it doesn't happen again. But, what the OP did was reasonable and if he was able to use OTA after the reboot it would have been an annoyance instead of a loss of all reception.
> 
> Mike


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## TMan (Oct 31, 2007)

Hoosier205 said:


> Funny how satellite receivers require...a satellite signal.


Yeah, to watch programming received from a _satellite_. What does that have to do with utilizing an antenna for local terrestrial broadcasts, which the device is also capable of if properly configured (like mine is)?

I can understand the need for a satellite signal to be present when the DVR boots up, because I'm sure it does a bunch of housekeeping and authorization stuff at that point, but there is no reason the machine should prevent continued antenna use when the satellite signal is interrupted but electrical power is not interrupted.

What if your smartphone refused to use a nearby wi-fi signal just because it was unable to also access a cellular signal? Don't you think that would be kind of stupid? At least a smartphone would still let you use wi-fi (if present) even if you rebooted the phone in a location without cellular coverage.

Next I suppose someone will tell me you can't watch existing recordings during a rain fade loss-of-signal event, either.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Hoosier205 said:


> Watching 90 minutes behind on a buffer with a device reporting signal issues multiple times throughout the day and choosing not to consider the situation is not what I would call reasonable.


I said it was reasonable to assume I'd have OTA during temporary signal loss.

However, since the popups are expected in this case, I would have never considered that it wouldn't give me the option and just reboot on it's own and thus lose all live TV viewing options. You may know that it would eventually restart without giving the viewer the option and thus lose OTA but I'll bet you my paycheck that the vast majority of subs don't. So yes, I don't think what the OP did was unreasonable.

Personally, I would have been recording the game and that's the only thing I thought the OP did wrong. But, maybe I just don't have any common sense. :grin:

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I suggested the OP might have dumped the live buffer into a recording.

While I'm not going to run this test so long that it gets to the rebooting stage:

I turned on my HR34, and it was tuned to an OTA channel.
I removed the coax from the dish.
I got a message that it had lost connection to the dish.
OTA keeps playing, "but" the nasty message keeps showing.
I've pulled up a recording and don't have any problem. There aren't any messages showing.

"I imagine" the main problems the OP had were:


loss of signal for an extended time.
using the live buffer at a time it might not have been the best choice.
Loss of signal during storms have been a problem for years, but if the receiver doesn't lose power, recordings have been able to be play for some time.
It still looks [here] like this is the case.

The "odd thing" here is after stopping the recording, the loss of connection message, is no longer there, and I full live buffer off of my OTA channel as if there was no problem with the coax being disconnected. :shrug:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I said it was reasonable to assume I'd have OTA during temporary signal loss.
> 
> However, since the popups are expected in this case, I would have never considered that it wouldn't give me the option and just reboot on it's own and thus lose all live TV viewing options. You may know that it would eventually restart without giving the viewer the option and thus lose OTA but I'll bet you my paycheck that the vast majority of subs don't. So yes, I don't think what the OP did was unreasonable.
> 
> ...


Hard to say/know exactly what happened without being there.
"I think" the default is to reboot, but the user can defer to a later time. "The problem is" it keeps coming back and if you don't stay on top of "the nasty gram", it bites you in the butt.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TMan said:


> Yeah, to watch programming received from a _satellite_. What does that have to do with utilizing an antenna for local terrestrial broadcasts, which the device is also capable of if properly configured (like mine is)?
> 
> I can understand the need for a satellite signal to be present when the DVR boots up, because I'm sure it does a bunch of housekeeping and authorization stuff at that point, but there is no reason the machine should prevent continued antenna use when the satellite signal is interrupted but electrical power is not interrupted.
> 
> ...


I will tell you that I have taken HRs with me on vacations and they've never rebooted once. And watched recorded content all week without a problem. Must be the AM-21 that's causing the problem. What else could it be? But we're both being logical...

Rich


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Perhaps a difference in programming between how to handle a lost signal and how to handle a lost connection?

A better test of a "snowed out" situation would be to block signals reaching the LNBs.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

James Long said:


> Perhaps a difference in programming between how to handle a lost signal and how to handle a lost connection?
> 
> A better test of a "snowed out" situation would be to block signals reaching the LNBs.


Since I have recordings currently going on, masking the LNB wasn't on my agenda.
From what I did see, the error messages come during "live TV", so even with OTA, using the live buffer isn't the best choice in marginal conditions.

I had a heavy storm come through a few days back.
I had a recording going on, but was watching the same program in the buffer. The loss of signal kept popping up and there isn't a way to get these messages to clear.
These same messages don't seem to show if you're watching a recording.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Could not the reboot have been caused by some other thing, such as a very brief power outage, and been merely coincidental??


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Personally, I would have been recording the game and that's the only thing I thought the OP did wrong. But, maybe I just don't have any common sense. :grin:
> Mike


I never watch a Game or Golf via Live TV. I wait 30 minutes to an hour and then start watching the Recording so I can be in control. I can 30 second skip thru commercials which I hate to watch especially since so many repeat themselves forever.

Also, I would get a Dish Heater and be done with it.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Since I have recordings currently going on, masking the LNB wasn't on my agenda.
> From what I did see, the error messages come during "live TV", so even with OTA, using the live buffer isn't the best choice in marginal conditions.
> 
> I had a heavy storm come through a few days back.
> ...


True, I always see the that message when turning on the HR when I'm on vacation, but I've never seen that message while playing recorded content. During a storm, no matter how bad it is, I've never seen a loss of signal message while watching recorded content.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> Could not the reboot have been caused by some other thing, such as a very brief power outage, and been merely coincidental??


The TS didn't mention anything like that. He said the HR kept telling him it was gonna reboot. Since I've never used an antenna, I've never had an AM-21, but that seems as if it's the logical source of the problem.

With all the HRs I've gone thru, wouldn't you think I would have seen at least one say it was gonna reboot? My laptop tells me it's gonna reboot from time to time to install new updates, but I've never seen a message such as that on an HR. Seems like he had some sort of "Perfect Storm" experience.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Richierich said:


> I never watch a Game or Golf via Live TV. I wait 30 minutes to an hour and then start watching the Recording so I can be in control. I can 30 second skip thru commercials which I hate to watch especially since so many repeat themselves forever.


Obviously, I'll never understand why folks watch live TV when they've got DVRs.



> Also, I would get a Dish Heater and be done with it.


I'd have some kind of professional install the heater. Jobs you don't do regularly are usually best left to guys who do those jobs for a living. And I'd make sure I saw his insurance policy before I let him climb up and do anything.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Rich said:


> Obviously, I'll never understand why folks watch live TV when they've got DVRs.
> 
> I'd have some kind of professional install the heater. Jobs you don't do regularly are usually best left to guys who do those jobs for a living. And I'd make sure I saw his insurance policy before I let him climb up and do anything.
> Rich


EXACTLY!!!

I can't stand Commercials so I start the Recordings and go putz around in the yard or whatever and then come back 30-45 minutes later and start watching the Recording and then a commercial comes up and I skip and I am a Happy Guy!!!

One of the reasons you have a DVR it to Record and Watch!!!


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rpe33 said:


> I don't know why everyone is giving you a hard time over this.


 You obviously haven't been around here much. If you had been you'd recognize the pattern. :hurah::lol::grin:


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

TBlazer07 said:


> You obviously haven't been around here much. If you had been you'd recognize the pattern. :hurah::lol::grin:


And just what is the Pattern???


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Richierich said:


> And just what is the Pattern???


The Urban Myth that there is a pattern.


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> You can agree to disagree if you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that OP ignored the situation and chose to watch from a buffer on a receiver that that reported signal issues. There isn't much a provider can do when the customer takes no responsibility for their own situation. The fact is that an inanimate object did more to try and rectify the situation.


Hogwash. I would argue that hooking up OTA in the first place, despite D*'s ongoing design flaws with the implementation, is "taking responsibility for their own situation," when it comes to DBS signal loss. You just can't put your pom poms down enough to admit it.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

Rich said:


> Obviously, I'll never understand why folks watch live TV when they've got DVRs.
> 
> I'd have some kind of professional install the heater. Jobs you don't do regularly are usually best left to guys who do those jobs for a living. And I'd make sure I saw his insurance policy before I let him climb up and do anything.
> 
> Rich


I watch THE game on one TV and RedZone on another so it just wouldn't be possible to delay the game as I will see anything important that happens on RZ.


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Should I have been recording? Yes.

Should the box be as polite as my doctor? He warns me before he violates me.

If the box had just left me alone and not tried to fix a problem I knew it couldn't fix I wouldn't have been so mad.

The sun came out the next day, as I knew it would, warmed the dish and all was well.

BTW - after the reboot I could watch shows recorded from sat without problems but I could not watch shows recorded off of my antenna so even if I had been recording the game the box still would have F'd me.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> You obviously haven't been around here much. If you had been you'd recognize the pattern. :hurah::lol::grin:


I was just wondering this morning where you've been... :lol:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dfd said:


> Should I have been recording? Yes.
> 
> Should the box be as polite as my doctor? He warns me before he violates me.
> 
> ...


Glad the recorded content still played as it should. So, it all goes back to the antenna screwing the works up? This is the first instance of such a thing happening that I've read about. Still don't get why the HR wanted to reboot.

Which model of the HR20s do you have? Only two, the 20-700 and the 20-100.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dfd said:


> Should I have been recording? Yes.
> 
> *Should the box be as polite as my doctor? He warns me before he violates me*.


!rolling

Forgive me...I'm cracking up at how that was explained...not the issue itself.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Rich said:


> I was just wondering this morning where you've been... :lol:
> Rich


He's been hiding!!! :lol:


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Rich said:


> Glad the recorded content still played as it should. So, it all goes back to the antenna screwing the works up? This is the first instance of such a thing happening that I've read about. Still don't get why the HR wanted to reboot.
> 
> Which model of the HR20s do you have? Only two, the 20-700 and the 20-100.
> 
> Rich


Recorded SAT content would play but not content recorded via antenna.

HR20/100 running 0x62c.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dfd said:


> Recorded SAT content would play but not content recorded via antenna.
> 
> HR20/100 running 0x62c.


Never ceases to amaze me how many folks have 20-100s that work.

Rich


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## Rus (Sep 28, 2012)

dfd said:


> Do the people that write the code for these boxes ever actually use them? Today I have to wonder.
> 
> Here's the reason for my anger...
> 
> ...


Why is the antenna mounted so high? Isn't there another location so it is accessible?


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Rus said:


> Why is the antenna mounted so high? Isn't there another location so it is accessible?


I have plenty of places that are accessible but none that are accessible and able to receive a sat signal. If there was an easier place I would have used it.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Most of you, especially those that back Directv regardless of the situation, have missed the point of the entire thread. Mike Bertelsen got it, but it took 92 posts before even he mentioned it. The problem isn't the box rebooting, it's that ota doesn't work unless you have a satellite signal. That's stupid, and it's the fault of the software.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

studechip said:


> Most of you, especially those that back Directv regardless of the situation, have missed the point of the entire thread. Mike Bertelsen got it, but it took 92 posts before even he mentioned it. The problem isn't the box rebooting, it's that ota doesn't work unless you have a satellite signal. *That's stupid, and it's the fault of the software*.


Unless it's designed to operate that way of course.


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## TMan (Oct 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unless it's designed to operate that way of course.


If that's the case, then it is stupid that it is designed that way! Aside from probably making it angry during a reboot, which I'll allow an exception for, an otherwise undisturbed HR34/AM21 combo should carry on happily with antenna channels if it temporarily loses satellite signal. That's a major point of having an AM21 in my opinion.

The only thing dumber than that would be to require, when an AM21 is connected, the presence of an OTA signal to receive satellite. Oh, your antenna is goofed up? No satellite for you! Or disconnect the AM21.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TMan said:


> If that's the case, then it is stupid that it is designed that way!


Software design is often a subjective business (matter of opinion) in terms of right/wrong/good/better/best.

I'm not saying it was designed that way...only that it was a possibility and if so...would explain the reported behavior.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Software design is often a subjective business (matter of opinion) in terms of right/wrong/good/better/best.
> 
> *I'm not saying it was designed that way*...only that it was a possibility and if so...would explain the reported behavior.


I don't know if it was intentional or not, but earlier hd boxes didn't need a satellite signal to work ota. It started with the Directv branded boxes.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

studechip said:


> I don't know if it was intentional or not, but earlier hd boxes didn't need a satellite signal to work ota. It started with the Directv branded boxes.


That was certainly true in the HR20-700's I used to have. Then again...those would now be 6 1/2 year old DVRs.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That was certainly true in the HR20-700's I used to have. Then again...those would now be 6 1/2 year old DVRs.


Haven't I already posted that unless it reboots, the OTA/AM21 works fine with the loss of the SAT signal?

At some point due to the guide data missing, it will want to reboot.

During boot-up, it needs the SAT signal to verify the account status.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Haven't I already posted that unless it reboots, the OTA/AM21 works fine with the loss of the SAT signal?
> 
> At some point due to the guide data missing, it will want to reboot.
> 
> During boot-up, it needs the SAT signal to verify the account status.


Obviously I missed that post.

With a 2-week guide data inventory...it sure makes sense that E.T. would want to phone home for more data.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Obviously I missed that post.
> 
> With a 2-week guide data inventory...it sure makes sense that E.T. would want to phone home for more data.


While it was a bummer that the TS got screwed over watching his game in the live buffer and having the DVR reboot, There have to be some limits of the OTA functions, or these "leased" receivers would be used for dual tuner OTA DVRs after a customer dropped their SAT service.

For times when there are signal problems, we can watch recordings [even after a reboot] and without a reboot, watch OTA. This also will have a timeout but DirecTV did make some changes a few years back after some bad storms and complaints here on the forum.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> While it was a bummer that the TS got screwed over watching his game in the live buffer and having the DVR reboot, There have to be some limits of the OTA functions,* or these "leased" receivers would be used for dual tuner OTA DVRs after a customer dropped their SAT service.*
> 
> <snip>


This is very likely what is going on. For what ever reason the receiver decided it was time to restart and when it didn't find a signal, right or wrong, it defaulted to disabling OTA.

I understanding it was frustrating to the TS, I also understand DIRECTV may have sound business reasons. It's all theory on my part but it makes sense.

Mike


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

Mike Bertelson said:


> This is very likely what is going on. For what ever reason the receiver decided it was time to restart and when it didn't find a signal, right or wrong, it defaulted to disabling OTA.
> 
> I understanding it was frustrating to the TS, I also understand DIRECTV may have sound business reasons. It's all theory on my part but it makes sense.
> 
> Mike


While the actions it took may make sense to DirecTV the prompts did not make sense to me and that is what got me really going. If it warned of a reboot I would have taken some action to avoid missing the game.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dfd said:


> While the actions it took may make sense to DirecTV the prompts did not make sense to me and that is what got me really going. If it warned of a reboot I would have taken some action to avoid missing the game.


That's a valid complaint. IMHO, it should have been made clear that it was going to reboot and give you the option to record what's in the buffer. I don't know how practical that is though.

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dfd said:


> While the actions it took may make sense to DirecTV the prompts did not make sense to me and that is what got me really going. If it warned of a reboot I would have taken some action to avoid missing the game.





Mike Bertelson said:


> That's a valid complaint. IMHO, it should have been made clear that it was going to reboot and give you the option to record what's in the buffer. I don't know how practical that is though.
> 
> Mike


I too agree with this, and "I'd guess" it hasn't been something that's gotten much attention.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

veryoldschool said:


> While it was a bummer that the TS got screwed over watching his game in the live buffer and having the DVR reboot, *There have to be some limits of the OTA functions, or these "leased" receivers would be used for dual tuner OTA DVRs after a customer dropped their SAT service.*
> 
> For times when there are signal problems, we can watch recordings [even after a reboot] and without a reboot, watch OTA. This also will have a timeout but DirecTV did make some changes a few years back after some bad storms and complaints here on the forum.


Why? If the box is leased, Directv wants it back or the customer will be charged a significant amount of money to keep it. Your argument isn't supported by the facts.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

studechip said:


> Why? If the box is leased, Directv wants it back or the customer will be charged a significant amount of money to keep it. Your argument isn't supported by the facts.


I could see where someone would pay the non-returned receiver fee to continue to use as an OTA DVR with no more monthly fees; potentially years of free OTA DVR service could easily make paying the fee cost effective.

The down side would be not guide date. Even with that I'd bet if it were possible to do there'd be plenty who would do it.

Mike


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

There are several situations where you can have a leased box without directv service and not be charged.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

studechip said:


> Why? Your argument isn't supported by the facts.


You might just not be seeing them.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> With age comes wisdom and patience...well....sometimes...


I do try, but sometimes... :lol:

Rich


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## dudester (Feb 16, 2012)

Didnt read the entire post but i splitmy ota antenaa at the box and ran another feed to my tv directly, in case the box goes out. It is much easier to scroll thru the hr20 than to switch inputs on tv so i normally just watch ota through the box, but have the option in just in case. I do not notice any quality loss in either, the signal still looks as good as or better that the local signal direct sends.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

dudester said:


> ....... i splitmy ota antenaa at the box and ran another feed to my tv directly, in case the box goes out. ......


I did the same thing. The split also gives me the option to watch all the digital channels available in my area. D* carries very few of the available digital channels.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I could see where someone would pay the non-returned receiver fee to continue to use as an OTA DVR with no more monthly fees; potentially years of free OTA DVR service could easily make paying the fee cost effective.
> 
> The down side would be not guide date. Even with that I'd bet if it were possible to do there'd be plenty who would do it.
> 
> Mike


I was only referring to the ota function, not the dvr. I don't have any problem with the dvr not working without a satellite signal, just the ota. The price that Directv would charge to keep a unit would likely be more than what it would cost to buy an ota tuner elsewhere.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

veryoldschool said:


> You might just not be seeing them.


Perhaps you would care to post some of them then.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

studechip said:


> Perhaps you would care to post some of them then.


You already quoted one and used bold to highlight it.
Whether you believe it or not, what you're asking would turn them into "free" OTA DVRs.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

veryoldschool said:


> You already quoted one and used bold to highlight it.
> Whether you believe it or not, what you're asking would turn them into "free" OTA DVRs.


As I posted earlier, I was only talking about using ota without a satellite signal, not the dvr.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

studechip said:


> As I posted earlier, I was only talking about using ota without a satellite signal, not the dvr.


DirecTV retains ownership, so if the receiver can't determine if it's still on an active account, it doesn't work.
The OTA works for a while if it hasn't lost power, but has lost the SAT signal.


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