# HD Aspect Ratio Question (4:3 or 16:9)



## BeanTown (Feb 16, 2006)

I'm awaiting the arrival of a 622 and I will be a first time HD subscriber. I'm pretty comfortable with HD as a technology but there is something that I need clarification on.

I have a 56" TV that has an aspect ratio of 4:3. I assumed that anything I wanted to watch in HD would come through as letterbox 16:9 (black bars top and bottom). I read in another thread that some of the local HD programs are shown in 4:3 and not 16:9. Can someone please clarify for me if I'll actually be able to watch HD that will fill my entire 4:3 TV? I'd love to hear from people that have a 4:3 TV and their experiences with HD programs.

Any help would be appreciated.

Long time lurker, first time poster


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

BeanTown said:


> I'm awaiting the arrival of a 622 and I will be a first time HD subscriber. I'm pretty comfortable with HD as a technology but there is something that I need clarification on.
> 
> I have a 56" TV that has an aspect ratio of 4:3. I assumed that anything I wanted to watch in HD would come through as letterbox 16:9 (black bars top and bottom). I read in another thread that some of the local HD programs are shown in 4:3 and not 16:9. Can someone please clarify for me if I'll actually be able to watch HD that will fill my entire 4:3 TV? I'd love to hear from people that have a 4:3 TV and their experiences with HD programs.
> 
> ...


By definition HD is 16:9. The only exception to this would be movie transfers, which are preserved in their original aspect ratio(there are count them 54) Most local broadcasters are not originating HD programming, but receiving and transmitting programming from the networks. The digital channels, when not transmitting HD from the networks are transmitting the analog signal as digital. The appearance of the station can go from no better than the original to something quiet special. A few stations "upconvert" their non HD digital signals, no HD in 4:3, and look quiet good. The reverse is also true some HD channels (TNT) scale SD to HD.


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## BeanTown (Feb 16, 2006)

olgeezer said:


> By definition HD is 16:9. The only exception to this would be movie transfers, which are preserved in their original aspect ratio(there are count them 54) Most local broadcasters are not originating HD programming, but receiving and transmitting programming from the networks. The digital channels, when not transmitting HD from the networks are transmitting the analog signal as digital. The appearance of the station can go from no better than the original to something quiet special. A few stations "upconvert" their non HD digital signals, no HD in 4:3, and look quiet good. The reverse is also true some HD channels (TNT) scale SD to HD.


So on a local HD channel if the program being shown is not in HD then the channel will be simply showing the SD program except it's transmitted as digital (which amy look better than the SD version of the channel)?

How do we know if a program is being transmitted in HD or if it's SD? Let's just say someone had no idea from the PQ if it was SD or HD. How would they know watching a HD local channel that the program was in HD? Or since the HD local channels are trasmitting the SD shows as digital as well is everything considered some type of HD?

These are things I can probably figure out when I have the receiver and channels in the house but I want to be as prepared as possible before it arrives. The wife will be asking many questions.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

Its kind of like gold. Once you see it, all else pales, and it is easy to spot. If you say WOW, it is. If you don't it probably isn't. Again if it is film transfer from dirty or damaged film or your TV is too small to receive the benefit, it may be a little harder too distinguish.


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## kb7oeb (Jun 16, 2004)

CBS ran Rudolph in 4:3 HD, I think Wizard of Oz was that way too.

From what I have read most 4:3 hd sets force letterbox mode when recieveing an 720 or 1080 signal, the sucky thing about that is when your digital local is doing 4:3 (SD or the rare old movie HD) you will have bars on all 4 sides.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

kb7oeb said:


> CBS ran Rudolph in 4:3 HD, I think Wizard of Oz was that way too.
> 
> From what I have read most 4:3 hd sets force letterbox mode when recieveing an 720 or 1080 signal, the sucky thing about that is when your digital local is doing 4:3 (SD or the rare old movie HD) you will have bars on all 4 sides.


You can change the aspect ratio thru the receiver. It is easy to switch from letterbox to full screen if desired.


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## BeanTown (Feb 16, 2006)

LtMunst said:


> You can change the aspect ratio thru the receiver. It is easy to switch from letterbox to full screen if desired.


Does that mean that if an HD program is being shown in 16:9 I can make it 4:3 through the 622??? I always thought you could only do it the other way around.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

BeanTown said:


> Does that mean that if an HD program is being shown in 16:9 I can make it 4:3 through the 622??? I always thought you could only do it the other way around.


Yes, you can using the Zoom aspect ratio. Some resolution will be lost in the process, but not bad.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

also, no one actually answered one of your questions about HD/SD from the local provider. How do you know when you are seeing HD versus SD? 

That is simple, for those with a 16:9 display, just not sure how this will translate on a 4:3 unit. Your local HD is broadcast in HD 720p or 1080i at all times. When the "show" is HD also, the show will be in 16:9. When the "show" is in SD, the signal is still 16:9, but the "show" is boxed in at 4:3, so there are side bars versus top/bottom bars. 

With your set, HD should be watched in 16:9 (if you don't mind the letter box bars), and SD you could either swittch the 622 to 4:3 mode or try a zoom mode. hopefully zoom mode makes the 16:9 original signal fit the 4:3 "show" perfectly to your screen. (personally, as soon as it's reasonable for you, get a 16:9 set. If you can't now, that's understandable. But in a year or two, if they fallin into budget, get one, you won't regret it)


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## BeanTown (Feb 16, 2006)

Rogueone said:


> also, no one actually answered one of your questions about HD/SD from the local provider. How do you know when you are seeing HD versus SD?
> 
> That is simple, for those with a 16:9 display, just not sure how this will translate on a 4:3 unit. Your local HD is broadcast in HD 720p or 1080i at all times. When the "show" is HD also, the show will be in 16:9. When the "show" is in SD, the signal is still 16:9, but the "show" is boxed in at 4:3, so there are side bars versus top/bottom bars.
> 
> With your set, HD should be watched in 16:9, and SD you could either swittch the 622 to 4:3 mode or try a zoom mode. hopefully zoom mode makes the 16:9 original signal fit the 4:3 "show" perfectly to your screen. (personally, as soon as it's reasonable for you, get a 16:9 set. If you can't now, that's understandable. But in a year or two, if they fallin into budget, get one, you won't regret it)


There is definitly on 16:9 display for me on the horizon. I couldn't wait on the 622 so I went ahead with that order in the hopes that I'd still be able to benefit from HD using my 4:3 display. The TV I have is actually a really nice Samsung 56" that's 3 years old.

From the sounds of it I might be happier than I thought. If I can take the 16:9 display and get it fot the 4:3 without any major loss in PQ I'll be thrilled.

How much of a difference, if any, is there in SD program viewing on regular locals vs HD locals?


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

if i understand that question, sat locals vs OTA locals, both SD shows, it's incredible. it's about like comparing vhs to progressive scan DVD, or at worst, dvd to progressive scan dvd. 

Colors are much better, sharpness, everything. It might even seem a little bright because you are so used to the duller sat locals  

as for the TV, it shoud look stellar. HD is HD. I just don't understand how a 4:3 TV gets labeled HD  In order to be HD the displayed show has to be in 16:9, so strange. But I suspect, as others mentioned, your choice is to watch HD with the extra content available to 16:9 cutoff, or to watch in letterbox. having watched DVD's in letterbox exclusively if possible on any type of TV, just watch in letterbox. it'll look amazing, and when shows are in 4:3, find the best method of watching those in fullscreen. For me, I watch HD stuff in full screen obviously, but my SD stuff I usually just leave in the 4:3 box so its not stretched. If I really want, I might zoom it to fill out the sides, but then peoples butts are really fat. Which is strange when watching American Idol and you think 'that chic has a big ole butt, but I thought she was skinny before' then you realize you have the TV set to stretch her buns extra wide  haha


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## BeanTown (Feb 16, 2006)

I'm actually curious to know what the comparison will be between sat locals and sat HD locals (Boston hopefully in next waive), both SD shows? 

I was excited about the 622 before and now I'm REALLY excited. I hope everything goes well with the install. Just getting the order through customer service was very frustrating.

Thanks for all the help everyone.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

gotta figure the OTA will always look better or equal. NO reason for OTA to look worse since the best Dish can do is pass it thru identically. They can't improve it  or can they but don't? I would guess the network feeds are uncompressed full res feeds, right?


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

While one of the 18 digital formats is SD and 16:9, I'm not of anyone outside of monitor manufactures using it. DVDs are 720X480. Satellite and Digital channels are normally 640X480. Where the biggest confusion comes is in the semantically mislabeled use of "letterboxing" To the consumer that means a bar on the top and bottom of the screen. To the professionals it means letting folks watch widescreen programming on their 4:3 TVs. This is how it works. I want to see the original aspect movie version on my TV. The movie is shaped like an envelope and my TV is kinda square. We make the image smaller, so the whole thing fits on my square TV, in its original glory and I'm happy. This format is so popular that some of the 'hip' ad men make letterboxed commercials. What happens when you show that on a 16:9 --small image -----black bars four sides


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

We call that the "postage stamp effect", where a content provider puts 16x9 content non-anamorphically within a 4x3 frame. It sucks, yes, but at least the Dish receiver has a "Zoom" function / mode which is designed for just this particular problem.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

Slordak said:


> We call that the "postage stamp effect", where a content provider puts 16x9 content non-anamorphically within a 4x3 frame. It sucks, yes, but at least the Dish receiver has a "Zoom" function / mode which is designed for just this particular problem.


Of course this causes a huge loss of picture quality. I've avoided watching PPV from dish in letterbox and to fit your screen only when the wife demanded, as I still have several 4.52 coupons. The last 2 I've used on HD PPVs, whose movie choices have improved over the last couple of months


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

BattleStar Galacatica is postage stamp which is a little annoying, but it doesn't look great zoomed, and the TV cuts off the edges. guess I need to adjust it better : )


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

Rogueone said:


> BattleStar Galacatica is postage stamp which is a little annoying, but it doesn't look great zoomed, and the TV cuts off the edges. guess I need to adjust it better : )


I use Partial Zoom on Battlestar. You don't lose anything on the edge and only have a small black bar at the top and bottom.


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## kb7oeb (Jun 16, 2004)

LtMunst said:


> You can change the aspect ratio thru the receiver. It is easy to switch from letterbox to full screen if desired.


Unless his tv will crop an HD signal he won't be able to get it to fill the screen unless he uses s-video.

Its true that HDTV is 16:9 but my computer monitor is hd quality and 4:3. When I playback an HD recording on my computer monitor I zoom it to crop the sides, since most broadcast tv is framed for 4:3 anyway I usually never notice.


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

kb7oeb said:


> Unless his tv will crop an HD signal he won't be able to get it to fill the screen unless he uses s-video.


Why do you say that? As was noted above, the receiver takes care of the mode, so even though the TV is locked into displaying the entire unmolested 16x9 high definition frame, the receiver can still adjust the image. This includes zooming or stretching to fill the screen. The TV's stretch modes aren't used, but that's irrelevant.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

Slordak said:


> Why do you say that? As was noted above, the receiver takes care of the mode, so even though the TV is locked into displaying the entire unmolested 16x9 high definition frame, the receiver can still adjust the image. This includes zooming or stretching to fill the screen. The TV's stretch modes aren't used, but that's irrelevant.


Exactly.


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## bigrick (Oct 21, 2003)

BeanTown said:


> I'm actually curious to know what the comparison will be between sat locals and sat HD locals (Boston hopefully in next waive), both SD shows?
> 
> I was excited about the 622 before and now I'm REALLY excited. I hope everything goes well with the install. Just getting the order through customer service was very frustrating.
> 
> Thanks for all the help everyone.


You will only be excited about this if you are already happy with your picture, as a 622 hooked to that set will look about zero % better than the picture you already have. When the tv is not HD and the size is over 40 inches, the picture degrades considerably. Even the HD channels that you are paying so much for will probably not look any better without the resolution to present them to your eyes. Let us know.


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## BeanTown (Feb 16, 2006)

bigrick said:


> You will only be excited about this if you are already happy with your picture, as a 622 hooked to that set will look about zero % better than the picture you already have. When the tv is not HD and the size is over 40 inches, the picture degrades considerably. Even the HD channels that you are paying so much for will probably not look any better without the resolution to present them to your eyes. Let us know.


The picture we get right now on SD is great. My wife and I are actually very happy with it. I'm hoping that the SD picture will be at least the same if not better. I'm also hoping that I can use one of the zoom modes to fill in more of the screen on the HD picture without losing too much quality. If too much resolution is lost then I'll just keep the picture cropped.

You mentioned "When the tv is not HD and the size is over 40 inches, the picture degrades considerably". My tv is "HD ready" just requiring the set top box or OTA antenna. Isn't theat the case with 90% of the "HD" tv's that are out there?

Here is a link to some details on my TV. Maybe if someone looks at the specs they can tell me how well equipped the TV will be to match with the 622.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/ArchivedTelevisions_2003/PCN5425RXXAA.asp?page=Specifications

Let me know your thoughts


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## kb7oeb (Jun 16, 2004)

Slordak said:


> Why do you say that? As was noted above, the receiver takes care of the mode, so even though the TV is locked into displaying the entire unmolested 16x9 high definition frame, the receiver can still adjust the image. This includes zooming or stretching to fill the screen. The TV's stretch modes aren't used, but that's irrelevant.


If the TV adds black bars to make 1080i 16:9 how is the reciever going to remove something the tv is doing?

I looked at his manual on page 48, I can't tell if it will work or not, it has zoom mode but it looks like it not only crops the sides but the top and bottom too.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

kb7oeb said:


> If the TV adds black bars to make 1080i 16:9 how is the reciever going to remove something the tv is doing?
> 
> I looked at his manual on page 48, I can't tell if it will work or not, it has zoom mode but it looks like it not only crops the sides but the top and bottom too.


A high definition is 16:9 by definition. If your display is 4:3 it will show the image with bars above and below the image.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

zoom mode would hopefully take that 16:9 letterbox image and crop it as a 4:3 and fill or almost fill the screen. If not, HD will still look great just small


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## bigrick (Oct 21, 2003)

partial zoom on the 622 should fill the screen, but the quality will suffer a bit. You are happy with the sd signal now, because it is not being stretched to fill the screen like a 16x9 would do. If you use the black bars on the top, bottom or sides for more than 15% of daily viewin, you will burn the 3 crts in that fashion. They may after a little time start to make the picture quality suffer. All things considered, you'll be happy with the image, just have to watch a smaller pic for the higher quality, or expand to fill and miss some of the action on the sides. I think you'll like it alot. Enjoy!


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

um, if his tv is 4:3 and you tell the 622 to send a 16:9 image, wouldn't the zoom only affect the 16:9 portion? or would he select 4:3 in the menus so the 622 knows the TV would take zoom mode at full height? I've always wondered what the diff was when selecting 4:3 in the menu


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

Perhaps the crux of the problem here is that a 4x3 TV isn't really optimal for HDTV; even if it can accept 720p or 1080i signals (which are always 16x9), it then has to do some further transformation on the signal. I would think the solution would be to buy a 16x9 HDTV


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