# Directv-16



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Apparently Directv has ordered at least one more new satellite. This article from three months ago that escaped the notice of most of us references Directv-16, but someone at the other site said he thought he'd read that they ordered both 16 & 17.

There does not seem to be any information about Directv-16 other than that it has been ordered from Airbus. We'll have to wait for an official announcement(s) that will mention the transponder payload to begin guessing where it is intended to go. While they buy satellites for non-US use, calling it Directv-16 strongly implies it is for the US market.

Airbus space division revenue flat in 2016; orders include 5 telecom satellites - Space Intel Report


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

They have spanning to DTV Latin, Mexico...

I would say it will expand DTV service to Africa


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Since Airbus/Astrium got the contract, and they built D15, I'm willing to bet D16 is identical, to provide maximum flexibility, and will go to 101 to replace all three satellites currently located there (D4S/D8/D9S) Who knows if Directv has any plans for their Ka band license at 101, but that's another reason to build it like D15 (though if identical to D15, D16 wouldn't be capable of powering all 32 Ku and 48 Ka transponders simultaneously)

Assuming Directv plans to continue occupying its 11 transponders at 119, it would make sense for D8 and D9S to go there to replace D7S. They renewed D7S's original 10 year license in 2014 for only 7 years, so probably it won't last much longer than that. D8's original 10 year license was renewed in 2015 for a full term of 10 years, and they stated it has fuel life until 2034. D9S is still on its original 15 year license until 2021, but would likely have fuel life until the latter 2020s if not longer.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I suspect it won't be identical to d15, I would not expect it to have a rb payload. ANd I wonder if it wont have some spot beams, depending on if they have any more markets they would like a little better coverage on.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> I suspect it won't be identical to d15, I would not expect it to have a rb payload. ANd I wonder if it wont have some spot beams, depending on if they have any more markets they would like a little better coverage on.


D15 had a Ku payload even though they can't use Ku from 103, so why not put a RB payload on D16, so it can go to 99 or 103 at some future date if needed? Maximum flexibility in your satellite fleet is a good thing.

Having a few spot beams for problem areas they seem to be having trouble covering with D14 might not be a bad idea, unless they plan to keep SW1 around to handle those.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> D15 had a Ku payload even though they can't use Ku from 103, so why not put a RB payload on D16, so it can go to 99 or 103 at some future date if needed? Maximum flexibility in your satellite fleet is a good thing.
> 
> Having a few spot beams for problem areas they seem to be having trouble covering with D14 might not be a bad idea, unless they plan to keep SW1 around to handle those.


I'm thinking they could design it with more power if there's less other payload so they could light up every transponders they have a license to at 101...

I would actually think it would make more sense for a full spot beam payload as a back than rb. But I could see either happening. I'm just not sure they feel the need for a rb backup so much as their core stuff of ka and ku.

How many Swiss army knife satelites do they really want? I guess that's the question. It is possible every sat they build here on out will have all three bands included.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> I'm thinking they could design it with more power if there's less other payload so they could light up every transponders they have a license to at 101...
> 
> I would actually think it would make more sense for a full spot beam payload as a back than rb. But I could see either happening. I'm just not sure they feel the need for a rb backup so much as their core stuff of ka and ku.
> 
> How many Swiss army knife satelites do they really want? I guess that's the question. It is possible every sat they build here on out will have all three bands included.


We don't know what adding the 18 reverse band transponders adds to the cost, if it is cheap (relative to the cost of building/launching the satellite) then why not? But I don't think having fewer transponders on board increases the power. The power budget is set by the solar panels - it needs to produce an excess so the batteries can be charged when it is in Earth's shadow.

Maybe they can use more efficient TWTAs to save a bit, but they'd probably need to make it a lot bigger to be able to power 32 Ku and 48 Ka to cover their full 101 license, when it sounds like D15 can only power 18 RB and 24 Ka at once. It doesn't make sense to design it to do that unless they are really sure they plan to use Ka from 101 for CONUS. I think it is more likely if they ever use Ka from 101 that it is mostly or completely spot beams - in case 4K takes off for broadcast and they need a lot more spot beam capacity to deliver it. More likely they'd need two satellites if they want to use Ka from 101, whether CONUS or spot beam.

If they were going to give it a full spot beam payload, it would make more sense to design it for 103, and once it is there move D15 to 101. The possibility of moving to 101 might have been the reason D15 had a Ku package.

It may become more clear when there's an official announcement about it, which hopefully details its payload. Maybe the reason there hasn't been announcement yet is Directv hasn't decided exactly what payload to include.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I was thinking less transponders equals more room for more batteries etc. there must be net size they just can't go over.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> ... The power budget is set by the solar panels - it needs to produce an excess so the batteries can be charged when it is in Earth's shadow. ... .


Actually I think it's, "the solar panels need to produce an excess amount of power in order to both recharge the batteries plus power the spacecraft's subsystems when the satellite emerges from behind the earth's shadow" ...

(i.e., when it comes out of "satellite eclipse") 

Anyway, good find on D16 ... totally slipped under the radar here. And sort of surprised DIRECTV hasn't filed an LOA by now as they normally do several years in advance of a satellite's actual manufacture.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Actually looking at what you wrote another way, this may have been what you meant...

That is, the extra solar power capacity is necessary so the satellite has charged batteries when in eclipse...

So my correction is withdrawn if that is the case .... 

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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> We don't know what adding the 18 reverse band transponders adds to the cost, if it is cheap (relative to the cost of building/launching the satellite) then why not? But I don't think having fewer transponders on board increases the power.


The fun part of the budget is that the power can be used for Ka and RB transponders where licensed and DBS transponders where licensed. If the satellite ends up at a location where all three are needed then it could be paired with a second (or third satellite - but the flexibility remains


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> I was thinking less transponders equals more room for more batteries etc. there must be net size they just can't go over.


I guess it depends on whether solar panels or batteries are ultimately the limiting factor.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Anyway, good find on D16 ... totally slipped under the radar here. And sort of surprised DIRECTV hasn't filed an LOA by now as they normally do several years in advance of a satellite's actual manufacture.


I think the advance LOA is only needed for initially filling new spectrum, like they were doing with Ka and then RB, to prove to the FCC that they are making progress required to be able to keep the spectrum license. Where they already have an operating satellite that will be replaced, they probably don't need to file anything until they're ready to launch.

Who knows, maybe there won't be any info about it until it is ready to deliver to the launch facility. Not only no info about the transponder package, but maybe not even about when it is supposed to be completed.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> The fun part of the budget is that the power can be used for Ka and RB transponders where licensed and DBS transponders where licensed. If the satellite ends up at a location where all three are needed then it could be paired with a second (or third satellite - but the flexibility remains


Yes, that's how D15 was designed. It has 14 Ka lo and 24 Ka hi CONUS transponders, but can only power 24 of them at once, along with reverse band. Not sure if it could power 24 Ka along with the 32 Ku if it was located at 101, but beyond a patent for an LNB that could receive Ka from 101 filed years ago, they've never indicated they plan to use it for customer broadcast.

At least if they decide to do so it would fit in the 6 coax band plan they have now. If they dropped 110/119 they have room from 950-1450 MHz on four coaxes to handle both polarities of Ka lo and Ka hi.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

A little more information has dribbled out. According to Stuart's blog, it will be called "Directv T16". Googling for Directv-T16 I found SANA has assigned it a record, and listed the expected launch date as Aug. 1 of _next year_! https://sanaregistry.org/r/spacecraft/753

Given the construction contract was just last year, and how launch operators are always behind schedule, launching in just over a year seems impossibly optimistic. Maybe it is just a placeholder, though you'd expect them to leave it blank in that case like they other fields, such as operating location, so maybe they know something we don't. Perhaps Directv wants it in place in time to take over 101 after the MPEG2 shutdown, though you'd think they would have started construction earlier if that was the case. Did the whole AT&T buyout thing freeze major capital spending and put them behind schedule, so now they have to play catch up?

Stuart still seems to be of the opinion that 119 will go away in 2019. The extension for D7S runs out in 2021 so it does seem to be true that 119 will need a replacement satellite if Directv intends to continue to use it in the long run. There are other options though. D8 currently located at 101 has fuel life until 2034, and D9S doesn't use up its initial license until 2021 and will probably be extended until at least the mid to late 2020s. Once T16 (or possibly D15) takes over 101, D8 & D9S could be moved to 119 so Directv can continue using it for ... something ... to keep Dish from getting those transponders. Unless Directv doesn't think giving Dish 14 new transponders at 110 & 119 would improve their competitive position in a meaningful way.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Something telling me the "T" designation is pointing to telecommunication purpose of the sat... time will tell.


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## djmaxwell (Jun 24, 2010)

P Smith said:


> Something telling me the "T" designation is pointing to telecommunication purpose of the sat... time will tell.


I'm going to guess that it is AT&T vs DirecTV.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> Something telling me the "T" designation is pointing to telecommunication purpose of the sat... time will tell.


AT&T has long been referred to as 'T' - their NYSE ticker symbol. Stuart's blog also said they were now referring to D14 and D15 as T14 and T15. Besides, the original articles about "Directv-16" specifically said it was for Directv, not for AT&T. It is definitely intended for Directv's fleet, not an AT&T specific telecommunications purpose.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I wouldn't spiraling up the discussion ... prefer do wait for real announcements.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I was checking to see if there was anything official yet, still nothing but I did find this guy's Linkedin when I searched: https://www.linkedin.com/in/florian-lugassy/

Looks like the design process is underway.

 
*Mechanical Design Engineer*

* Company Name ALTEN *
* Dates Employed Nov 2016 - Sep 2017 *
* Employment Duration 11 mos *
* Location Portsmouth, United Kingdom *

I worked at Airbus Defence & Space's Mechanical Design Office.
My main tasks and responsibilities included:
- Preparation of bills of material
- General Assembly Drawings using CATIA V5 for equipments, waveguides and coax cables for payload of telecommunication satellites.

The missions I have had the opportunity to work on include DirecTV T16, Eutelsat Quantum, Inmarsat 6 and Eutelsat E5WB


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

This was pointed out to me, thought it was interesting: Space Assigned Numbers Authority (SANA)

Note that it lists "Ku band". I looked up Directv-15 and the only entries for it show "Ka band" - even though that satellite also had reverse band and Ku payloads. So I think maybe this only refers to a satellite's primary mission instead of all bands it broadcasts/receives on. We already knew that either T16 goes to 101, or it goes to 103 and D15 goes to 101. Since it is designated as Ku here it looks like it probably goes to 101.

I wonder if it might be a smaller simpler Ku only satellite, so they can build it faster and try to get it launched and operational before the end of next year for the MPEG2 SD cutoff? Hopefully before long we'll find out when in 2019 this is planned to happen.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Could they be using this for HD duplicates on the KU band and using that for bad weather backup? I was wondering what they are going to do when they get rid of the SD duplicates and HD stays out longer in bad weather? I guess you would just use the DTV app for that? Or maybe they will use the T-16 for the local HD sub-channels?


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I don’t expect them to say anything about mpeg2 turning off again till sometime in the middle of 2019. 

And not sure why that cutoff would have anything to do with getting the new sat launched. I kind of expect the new sat to be rather huge, basically replacing all the satelites at 101 right now, including all their spots, because they can not afford to lose spot beam coverage since they will still need to show all the non Hi Definition channels from somewhere.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> I don't expect them to say anything about mpeg2 turning off again till sometime in the middle of 2019.
> 
> And not sure why that cutoff would have anything to do with getting the new sat launched. I kind of expect the new sat to be rather huge, basically replacing all the satelites at 101 right now, including all their spots, because they can not afford to lose spot beam coverage since they will still need to show all the non Hi Definition channels from somewhere.


They have to say something long before mid 2019 if they plan to switch MPEG2 off before the end of 2019. It will take a while to get all those SD customers upgraded. How far in advance did they put out their plans for dropping MPG receivers? This is a lot more difficult migration than the MPG one was because they can't just ship receivers that are a drop in replacement, they will have to visit the customer to replace dishes.

There are only a handful of MPEG2 SD only locals, they will move those to MPEG4 SD on the Ka spot beam.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

One of the main reasons I suggest mid 2019 is the longer they wait the fewer people will need to be upgraded in this way... and I personally also don’t except them to stick with 2019.... just me being pessimistic on that..

Also, it won’t surprise me if they try and offer those that they can DIRECTV ip rather than DIRECTV sat as an upgrade (they mentioned it’s coming this year, and note this is not dtv now service) to avoid all those service truck rolls. But they need to wait till that is out in force with DVR ability first. That could significantly cut down on the number of upgrades in major cities if they could get some people to go that route.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

The kind of people who are still SD only in 2018 are still going to be SD only in 2019, and would be in 2020 if Directv didn't force the issue. I doubt the rate of voluntary conversions / leaving Directv is all that much anymore. Almost everyone Directv is going to convince to move voluntarily via upgrade offers has already done so.

The ones who are left are stuck in their ways, and at this point are probably more likely to drop Directv SD because they died than because they voluntarily chose to. They aren't gonna be up on the latest technology and a streaming product like Directv Now that works very different from how traditional cable/satellite does isn't likely to appeal to them IMHO, even if it costs less.


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

I would think (in theory, at least) that the 101-only Ku dishes might not necessarily even need all to be replaced. Just receivers that can _only_ receive MPEG2 channels.

(That is, if there are still plans for Ku transmission at 101.)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Delroy E Walleye said:


> I would think (in theory, at least) that the 101-only Ku dishes might not necessarily even need all to be replaced. Just receivers that can _only_ receive MPEG2 channels.
> 
> (That is, if there are still plans for Ku transmission at 101.)


The problem is, how does converting all the Ku DBS feeds to A3 SD really gain DIRECTV anything, except to free up more bandwidth at 101°W, 110°W, and 119°W?

You even have to keep the same spotbeam channels at 101°W and 119°W, so those with P. 1 and P.III dishes can still receive local channels ...

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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

HoTat2 said:


> The problem is, how does converting all the Ku DBS feeds to A3 SD really gain DIRECTV anything, except to free up more bandwidth at 101°W, 110°W, and 119°W?
> 
> You even have to keep the same spotbeam channels at 101°W and 119°W, so those with P. 1 and P.III dishes can still receive local channels ...
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


I guess I wasn't really thinking in terms *everything* necessarily having to _stay_ in SD.

Just that maybe *all* 101-only dishes not needing replacement.

Sure would be interesting to know what the actual plans are...


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Delroy E Walleye said:


> I guess I wasn't really thinking in terms *everything* necessarily having to _stay_ in SD.
> 
> Just that maybe *all* 101-only dishes not needing replacement.
> 
> Sure would be interesting to know what the actual plans are...


Yeah ...

I also continue to be very surprised at still no FCC filings for the T16 satellite yet at this very late stage of a launch date scheduled for this year ....

I've never seen this happen before ...

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah ...
> 
> I also continue to be very surprised at still no FCC filings for the T16 satellite yet at this very late stage of a launch date scheduled for this year ....
> 
> ...


All the satellites they've launched since D5 have added new capacity of some sort so they had to file to show they were progressing to avoid losing their license on a certain band. T16 doesn't.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Delroy E Walleye said:


> I guess I wasn't really thinking in terms *everything* necessarily having to _stay_ in SD.
> 
> Just that maybe *all* 101-only dishes not needing replacement.
> 
> Sure would be interesting to know what the actual plans are...


At one time I thought they might do this to save money by avoiding replacing the 101 only dishes, but the lack of locals would be a real issue. I doubt they will keep 119 post-2019, so if they wanted to do this they'd need spot beams on 101 to replace all the spot beams on 101 and 119. I don't know offhand how many that is, but adding those beams to T16 may well cost more than replacing those 101 only dishes.

Theoretically they do could it halfway, and mirror MPEG4 SD of all channels on 101 but not provide locals. That would work for DNS accounts like for RVs and boats, but that doesn't seem like enough to make it worth it for them. You'd think they have to announce something pretty soon if things are going to change for RV accounts, because it isn't like you can just call Directv and get a new dish installed in your RV. They would want to know well in advance so they can plan for it.


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

Yeah, probably not cost-effective if all need replacement. I wonder if the current 101 locals could avoid it for a while, at least.

I sure would be curious though. With the latest modern compression tech just how much service _could_ actually be crammed into that 101 space slot and piped through a single, old-style Ku LNB?...


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

If all the 101 stuff will be going MPEG4, what receivers does DIRECTV currently have available that will handle MPEG4 with a non-SWiM LNB?


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## crkeehn (Apr 23, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> The kind of people who are still SD only in 2018 are still going to be SD only in 2019, and would be in 2020 if Directv didn't force the issue. I doubt the rate of voluntary conversions / leaving Directv is all that much anymore. Almost everyone Directv is going to convince to move voluntarily via upgrade offers has already done so.
> 
> The ones who are left are stuck in their ways, and at this point are probably more likely to drop Directv SD because they died than because they voluntarily chose to. They aren't gonna be up on the latest technology and a streaming product like Directv Now that works very different from how traditional cable/satellite does isn't likely to appeal to them IMHO, even if it costs less.


Or, that due to line of sight issues, they are unable to receive the HD satellite signals and consequently DirecTV refused to allow HD service. If they ever do allow DirecTV over IP, I'd be all over it.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

inkahauts said:


> Also, it won't surprise me if they try and offer those that they can DIRECTV ip rather than DIRECTV sat as an upgrade (they mentioned it's coming this year, and note this is not dtv now service) to avoid all those service truck rolls. But they need to wait till that is out in force with DVR ability first. That could significantly cut down on the number of upgrades in major cities if they could get some people to go that route.


Yup. I agree 100%.



slice1900 said:


> The kind of people who are still SD only in 2018 are still going to be SD only in 2019, and would be in 2020 if Directv didn't force the issue. I doubt the rate of voluntary conversions / leaving Directv is all that much anymore. Almost everyone Directv is going to convince to move voluntarily via upgrade offers has already done so.
> 
> The ones who are left are stuck in their ways, and at this point are probably more likely to drop Directv SD because they died than because they voluntarily chose to. They aren't gonna be up on the latest technology and a streaming product like Directv Now that works very different from how traditional cable/satellite does isn't likely to appeal to them IMHO, even if it costs less.


Good points, although their next-gen streaming service (which Inkahauts refers to as "DIRECTV ip") is not going to be quite the same thing as what we currently see with DirecTV Now. This new service, slated to launch later this year, will seem very much like traditional cable/satellite TV to the user (assuming that AT&T has the kinks worked out of their software and deploys a sufficiently robust back-end to power the service). In fact, I predict that the service will look pretty much just the same to the user as DirecTV satellite service will on the next generation Genie Mini C71. AT&T is basically going to do the same thing that their European counterpart Sky (the leading satellite TV service over there) is doing this year: offering their full-blown service two ways, via satellite and via streaming.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> At one time I thought they might do this to save money by avoiding replacing the 101 only dishes, but the lack of locals would be a real issue. I doubt they will keep 119 post-2019, so if they wanted to do this they'd need spot beams on 101 to replace all the spot beams on 101 and 119. *I don't know offhand how many that is, but adding those beams to T16 may well cost more than replacing those 101 only dishes.
> ... *


.

For reference;

101°W has 44 active spotbeam tps. distributed over 26 local spotbeams.

119°W is 37 active spotbeam tps. distributed over 29 local spotbeams. However, two spotbeam tps. actually have two downlink local spotbeams, with one of those four spotbeams currently unused.

So 119°W numbers are "effectively" 39 active spotbeam tps. dist. over 28 spotbeams.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Delroy E Walleye said:


> Yeah, probably not cost-effective if all need replacement. I wonder if the current 101 locals could avoid it for a while, at least.
> 
> I sure would be curious though. With the latest modern compression tech just how much service _could_ actually be crammed into that 101 space slot and piped through a single, old-style Ku LNB?...


If they used similar modulation they could fit 5 HD channels per Ku transponder. However, when they switch to DVB-S2 they will have higher order modulations available. If they were willing to make it as susceptible to rain fade as Ka, they could probably fit upwards of 250 HD channels on 101 - pretty much everything they have. But then what would they do with 99 and 103?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

RAD said:


> If all the 101 stuff will be going MPEG4, what receivers does DIRECTV currently have available that will handle MPEG4 with a non-SWiM LNB?


All HD receivers except the H25 and the Genie/Genie 2 can handle MPEG4 with a legacy LNB. If it was just a matter of swapping receivers they'd hand out H24s for D1x and older SD receivers and HR24s for R1x and call it a day.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

crkeehn said:


> Or, that due to line of sight issues, they are unable to receive the HD satellite signals and consequently DirecTV refused to allow HD service. If they ever do allow DirecTV over IP, I'd be all over it.


While I'm sure there are some, I can't believe there are more than a few thousand customers who can receive 101 but not 99 or 103. They are a pretty tight grouping.


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

slice1900 said:


> If they used similar modulation they could fit 5 HD channels per Ku transponder. However, when they switch to DVB-S2 they will have higher order modulations available. If they were willing to make it as susceptible to rain fade as Ka, they could probably fit upwards of 250 HD channels on 101 - pretty much everything they have. *But then what would they do with 99 and 103?*


How about a few dozen or more *UHD*?


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

Delroy E Walleye said:


> How about a few dozen or more *UHD*?


RSN OVER FLOWS LIVE 24/7?


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> All HD receivers except the H25 and the Genie/Genie 2 can handle MPEG4 with a legacy LNB. If it was just a matter of swapping receivers they'd hand out H24s for D1x and older SD receivers and HR24s for R1x and call it a day.


Do they have a few million old receivers laying around to handle swapped that many?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Delroy E Walleye said:


> How about a few dozen or more *UHD*?


They have 36 transponders sitting around in reverse band. I highly doubt they will ever have enough 4K channels to fill those. They won't need to expand into Ka band.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

RAD said:


> Do they have a few million old receivers laying around to handle swapped that many?


Dunno why not. They know exactly how many active MPEG2 SD receivers there are at any given time, how that number has decreased over the years, and thus how many they'll need to swap out for HD hardware next year.

All those customers who have been upgrading to Genie over the past few years, plus those who leave Directv, have returned many many H24, H25 and HR24...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I do not see them carrying two versions of the same channel once they have completed their transition off mpeg2... at least not till their contracts allow them to stop doing that. Could be that’s already baked into all their contracts. Sure should be. 

And yeah I think you (Slice) misunderstood what I was talking about. Not DIRECTV now but DIRECTV ip that will look exactly like DIRECTV current sat Service, or at least will once their unified guide is in place. Heck everything will eventually look the same it seems. And it will operate the same as DIRECTV sat Service. 

I still am not convinced that we have seen the hardware they want to use for this either.. 

Good point on the if they haven’t done it yet... but there are always still some changing on their own.. heck I’m guessing anyone asking about hanging today is Generally getting free upgrade.

I wouldn’t be surprised if half of the SD boxes that are still out there are actually just a second third or fourth box on a system that otherwise is HD. And those will mostly be simple Drop ships.




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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Yeah assuming Directv introduces a private network version of Directv (i.e. contract-wise operates the same as Uverse so they could offer "full" Directv rather than what Directv Now offers, but targeted at MDUs and AT&T fiber customers rather than DSL customers) by then it will be an option for some but certainly not most. I assume such private network Directv customers will get clients - if they use cloud DVR for this then there's no need for a server. That may be why they are having clients run the apps in the future instead of running them on the server.

No clue what percentage of total SD boxes are on otherwise HD installs. I agree those will be drop ships, so it is the number of SD only customers that are of concern. Five years ago that was fully one fourth of Directv's install base, or five million. That number will have declined since, but I'll bet still over a million by the end of this year.

Wiring is already in place in the house and old H2x/HR2x receivers are "free" to Directv. So figure $50 for the dish, and a couple hours for labor on average. Some will be easier if the dish is accessible and there is only one receiver, others will take longer where the old dish must be abandoned and wire run to a new dish location, and multiple receivers need to be replaced. The question is, how long would it take Directv to do a million of these in addition to their normal installs?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

When DISH did their conversion they sent out the oldest level of receiver that would work with MPEG4/8PSK. They did some rebranding on those receivers so users would not expect HD without upgrading to HD service (requiring payment and/or commitment). If DIRECTV has enough older receivers they could do something similar. DIRECTV seems to support "grandfathered" packages - so I suspect that they will "grandfather" SD only subscribers for as long as possible (without rewarding them with free HD upgrades without a commitment).

I assume AT&T|DIRECTV will liik at it from a perspective of what will cost them the least money. If free upgrades to HD are cheaper than some stopgap they may go that way.

Looking at what will be on Directv-16 when all is said and done: I do not expect all the SD duplicates to go away. Contractual obligations will leave some channels uplinked. The concept of using 101 for *some* rain fade resistant HD is a non-starter. Unless they can get most or all HD channels on 101 picking favorites would not go over well with the channels not chosen. (My opinion, of course.)


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

As I have said many tines I think they will install whatever gives them the most chance of additional sales down the road. I expect them to install something that can work with on demand where it makes sense. Anyone who is still an SD only customer is a customer for life imho and they would likely joy care if they give that customer a piece of equipment that cost a few more dollars if they could have the ability to sell them and sell advertising to them that makes up that difference over several years. 

I could be wrong but additional sales is what att is all about. 


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> The concept of using 101 for *some* rain fade resistant HD is a non-starter. Unless they can get most or all HD channels on 101 picking favorites would not go over well with the channels not chosen. (My opinion, of course.)


It is only people here who would be looking at it as "picking winners". The average Directv customer has no idea what 101 or 103 is, what Ku or Ka is, or that Directv has SD duplicates of nearly all channels. Directv could put some HD channels on 101 and 98% of the customer base would never know the difference.

If it came down to "picking winners" they have stats about who watches what, so going by most-watched would be hard for anyone to argue against. Though they could go a different direction, and put all the HD channels from some of their lower level packages on 101 so they could sell those to RV customers with a 101 only dish and tell them if they want one of the high end packages they need a different dish.

I would not be surprised if someone makes an 18" round 99/101/103 dish that is an easy retrofit for RVs if Directv drops 110/119. So what if the highest signal strength you can get is in the 80s, that only matters when it rains (and only for channels on 99/103)


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> It is only people here who would be looking at it as "picking winners". The average Directv customer ...


Don't think customers ... think channel providers. Tell Fox Sports One that they are not popular enough to be on 101 ku in HD when ESPN is on 101 ku in HD. See what happens when the big mouse tries to use its leverage to get all of its channels (popular and unpopular) over to ku - especially if 101 ku is used for an RV package.

I would not want to be the person at DIRECTV negotiating for channel renewals while picking favorites. Even if the channels were chosen strictly by math and there was no bundling by any channel provider. That sort of logic doesn't help when dealing with egos.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I’d suspect they would move channels to 101 based on packages. As many as they can get starting with the smallest package and moving up..


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## GoLongAndChopChop881 (Dec 20, 2017)

djmaxwell said:


> I'm going to guess that it is AT&T vs DirecTV.


Also, *Cricket Wireless* brings you...

*DIRECTV NOW!*


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## GoLongAndChopChop881 (Dec 20, 2017)

James Long said:


> When DISH did their conversion they sent out the oldest level of receiver that would work with MPEG4/8PSK.


*DOUBLE POST*
I did a tactic why DISH is transmitting MPEG-4 channels for QPSK transponders, while DirecTV is shutting down the MPEG-2s in mid 2019. directv shuts down mpeg2 - Google Drive

It didn't make sense for their bandwidth. According to this:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

GoLongAndChopChop881 said:


> I did a tactic why DISH is transmitting MPEG-4 channels for QPSK transponders, while DirecTV is shutting down the MPEG-2s in mid 2019.


DISH is not transmitting MPEG-4 channels for QPSK transponders. DISH transitioned away from QPSK to 8PSK on most transponders a couple of years ago. They are currently working on converting spotbeams to 8PSK. Their channels can be MPEG-4 or MPEG-2 on 8PSK transponders.

BTW: Do not trust what you see listed on DISH's 148 satellite. DISH doesn't have a working satellite at 148.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Recently it was announced that Directv-16 (aka Directv T16) would be launching on May 10th. Looks like as of last Friday that launch (VA248) has been pushed back a couple months. Now targeted at July 5th.

DLR - Raumfahrtmanagement - Ariane-5-Missionen

We can update a few other things from this thread. It is now confirmed that 1) Directv will be dropping 95, 110 and 119 by the end of this year, so everything will come from 99/101/103 only. 2) Directv will be moving some HD channels to 101. No idea which ones yet, but they will be "picking favorites", James


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Has the end of the year really been "confirmed" for turning off the (now duplicate) feeds from 95 and 119w?

Wow ..., while I guess that's enough time to convert all existing 95w dish users without RB LNBs.

When I look around my neighborhood at all the existing standard Ka/Ku SL-5 LNBs for Spanish subs. It's hard for me to believe they're going to convert all of them to RB by years end.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

They don't need to convert 95W subscribers with a Slimline if they move the channels off reverse band to Ka when they shut down 95, which I think they will do.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> It is now confirmed that 1) Directv will be dropping 95, 110 and 119 by the end of this year, so everything will come from 99/101/103 only. 2) Directv will be moving some HD channels to 101. No idea which ones yet, but they will be "picking favorites", James


It will be interesting to see what happens after they "abandon" 110 and 119. Perhaps use them for some business only services that could use "rain proof" reception?
More than a year after my comments perhaps we have a clue who the favorites might be? HBO and Time Warner channels at the head of the list?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens after they "abandon" 110 and 119. Perhaps use them for some business only services that could use "rain proof" reception?
> More than a year after my comments perhaps we have a clue who the favorites might be? HBO and Time Warner channels at the head of the list?


Based on Dish only renewing the lease for their satellite at 129 for one more year I have a feeling that there is some sort of deal where Dish is going to acquire use of those transponders, and drop 129. I don't think AT&T has any business use in mind for those slots because the satellites at 110 and 119 are getting a bit long in the tooth.

I think HBO would be an obvious candidate for 101 even if AT&T didn't own them. If I was them I'd just take the top 80 or so most viewed channels and put them on 101, and the rest on Ka. They could go to 3 HD channels per transponder for Ku and 4 for Ka and have a clear PQ lead over the cable/satellite competition. Gotta do something to justify their prices


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> Based on Dish only renewing the lease for their satellite at 129 for one more year I have a feeling that there is some sort of deal where Dish is going to acquire use of those transponders, and drop 129. I don't think AT&T has any business use in mind for those slots because the satellites at 110 and 119 are getting a bit long in the tooth.
> 
> I think HBO would be an obvious candidate for 101 even if AT&T didn't own them. If I was them I'd just take the top 80 or so most viewed channels and put them on 101, and the rest on Ka. They could go to 3 HD channels per transponder for Ku and 4 for Ka and have a clear PQ lead over the cable/satellite competition. Gotta do something to justify their prices


Just HBO EAST + WEST or the full HBO LINEUP on 101?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> They could go to 3 HD channels per transponder for Ku and 4 for Ka and have a clear PQ lead over the cable/satellite competition.


Anything less that 10-12 HD channels per Ku would probably be better than their competition. Most distributors are moving in the direction of "lower quality" ... or at least lower bandwidth. The competition has made it easy for DIRECTV to be better. 

(I try not to get too hung up on channels per transponder due to constant improvement in encoding schemes. I do remember when 13 SD streams in MPEG2 filled a QPSK transponder ... and the early days of 2 HD MPEG2 streams on QPSK. 8PSK and MPEG4 allows more channels per transponder without degrading the signal. Newer encoders keep raising the bar.)


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

JoeTheDragon said:


> Just HBO EAST + WEST or the full HBO LINEUP on 101?


It is all guesswork at this point. They could end up going alphabetically and running out of room on 101 after the Golf Channel for all we know


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> Anything less that 10-12 HD channels per Ku would probably be better than their competition. Most distributors are moving in the direction of "lower quality" ... or at least lower bandwidth. The competition has made it easy for DIRECTV to be better.
> 
> (I try not to get too hung up on channels per transponder due to constant improvement in encoding schemes. I do remember when 13 SD streams in MPEG2 filled a QPSK transponder ... and the early days of 2 HD MPEG2 streams on QPSK. 8PSK and MPEG4 allows more channels per transponder without degrading the signal. Newer encoders keep raising the bar.)


Dish is not only compressing things more they are cranking up the modulation to squeeze a higher bit rate out of their Ku transponders, which makes them more susceptible to rain fade (increases the minimum SNR required for a signal lock)

Directv uses a more relaxed modulation on the one Ku transponder currently in DVB-S2 mode (on 119) so they might be more resilient to rain fade for the channels on 101 AND have better PQ across the board than Dish.


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## MK48MOD1 (Aug 13, 2011)

Is a 3LNB (with RB ? ) the only type of LNB needed for new installs ?
From the thread it seems the 5LNB and International dish are no longer needed.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

MK48MOD1 said:


> Is a 3LNB (with RB ? ) the only type of LNB needed for new installs ?
> From the thread it seems the 5LNB and International dish are no longer needed.


Yes the SL-3 LNB with Reverse Band capability (or "SL-3RB") and HD receivers are all that is needed today to receive all programming.

Just SD only equipment needs access to 95 or 119W today to receive programming from them. Thus a WD dish or SL-5 respectfully.

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