# Comparing VZ FiOS to D*



## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I'm not switching from D*, but I ended up getting VZ FiOS for < $10/month added to my VZ internet access. Added it primarily for Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia, which has been great, but I thought I'd note what I think are the advantages/disadvantages of FiOS.

(I've been a D* customer since 1997, and currently have 2 HR20's and 1 HR24)

Advantages to FiOS:
CSN-Philly
All the local subchannels are up
More local programming (public access)
The DVR's GUI is beautiful (but D* is 100x more usable, which is much more important)
Channel changes are a LOT faster
I can't believe it, but I do like the clock on the FiOS box (like an old VCR)
VOD is much, much, much better. It's amazingly fast, and mostly HD.
Music Choice is light years better than whatever crap music channels D* has nowadays


Advantages for D*:
More HD
The sports packages (NHL CI/NBA for example) have a LOT more HD
The usability on my HR2* is a lot better
I love the RF remote on D*
Channels are organized much better than FiOS
I prefer the good old ugly D* remote
About every week, the FiOS DVR downloads new software, which to me, implies an unstable code base
NFL Sunday Ticket
WWDVR

Equal:
To me, PQ is identical
To me, audio quality is identical

In summary, I'm not going to go only with FiOS right now, but probably would if the D* base price keeps skyrocketing (the bundle price is pretty hard to beat) or they lost NFLST.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I'm not switching to D*, but I ended up getting VZ FiOS for < $10/month added to my VZ internet access. Added it primarily for Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia, which has been great, but I thought I'd note what I think are the advantages/disadvantages of FiOS.
> 
> (I've been a D* customer since 1997, and currently have 2 HR20's and 1 HR24)
> 
> ...


That just about sums it up for me....


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## sangs (Apr 2, 2008)

Not sure the "more HD" claim is actually valid though. I have both providers and each is missing HD channels that the other carries.

To me the biggest advantage to DirecTV is the 5-tuner Genie DVR. Until FiOS steps up with their version, DirecTV will remain my primary provider.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

To me.. i could care less about the price. For me here locally with my crappy local cable company... Direct TV without promos is STILL cheaper. nevermind twice the channels. I dont mind paying an extra 10-20 bucks a month to have the better product


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Fortunately, here in the exurbs of Philly, we have D*, E*, C*, and V* - Competition is a very good thing.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

The "most HD" claim both is and isn't completely subjective. It really comes down to the channels you watch. Personally I couldn't care less if a given provider has Lifetime in HD, for example. I'm not denigrating people who may watch that or any other channel, but "most HD" only counts if one or the other has the channel(s) I actually watch in HD.



compnurd said:


> To me.. i could care less about the price. For me here locally with my crappy local cable company... Direct TV without promos is STILL cheaper. nevermind twice the channels. I dont mind paying an extra 10-20 bucks a month to have the better product


For me, it's actually the opposite. If Charter can get CableCards working in my TiVos, I will be cancelling DirecTV because with a triple play bundle (phone+internet+TV), Charter is cheaper by $70 for the first year, $40 for the second year, and $30 after that than having Charter internet + DirecTV for TV.



sangs said:


> Not sure the "more HD" claim is actually valid though. I have both providers and each is missing HD channels that the other carries.
> 
> To me the biggest advantage to DirecTV is the 5-tuner Genie DVR. Until FiOS steps up with their version, DirecTV will remain my primary provider.


With FiOS you can use a TiVo, who has 4 and 6 tuner versions along with "mini" clients that work much like the Genie. That's another disadvantage to DirecTV, their DVRs actually have real competition from cable and FiOS if you're willing to deal with a cablecard install (which I understand with FiOS is usually painless)


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## sangs (Apr 2, 2008)

JosephB said:


> With FiOS you can use a TiVo, who has 4 and 6 tuner versions along with "mini" clients that work much like the Genie. That's another disadvantage to DirecTV, their DVRs actually have real competition from cable and FiOS if you're willing to deal with a cablecard install (which I understand with FiOS is usually painless)


Have a free MRDVR for life from FiOS - plus we watch a lot of VOD. Those two factors alone give me no interest in the Tivo platform.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I'm not switching from D*, but I ended up getting VZ FiOS for < $10/month added to my VZ internet access. Added it primarily for Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia, which has been great, but I thought I'd note what I think are the advantages/disadvantages of FiOS.
> 
> (I've been a D* customer since 1997, and currently have 2 HR20's and 1 HR24)
> 
> ...


I have both in house and pretty much agree.

A few differences, but preferences. I don't find the fios interface pretty at all. I think it it is garish and confusing. The On Demand is quick but I like the download option as you cannot skip or FF faster than 2x with "traditional" On Demand. If DirecTV would cleanup how you find things (quicker) then I would prefer their method.

Fios is much better for local programming as they do have all the sub channels and, for me, neighboring locals in HD but their national HD is behind (they were once ahead), especially in sports.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

I switched from DirecTV to FiOS just over two years ago. The main reason was the slow response of the DVR. The secondary reason was saving $40/month the first year and $20/month the second year. The current price is about the same as I was paying DirecTV two years ago. I have no idea how much DirecTV's prices have increased in that time.

I like the vast amount of VOD available, the local public service channels, an extra PBS HD channel, better picture quality on SD channels, and Music Choice. The FiOS program guide works fine for me.

I miss the Pac-12 network, but DirecTV doesn't carry it either.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JosephB said:


> The "most HD" claim both is and isn't completely subjective. It really comes down to the channels you watch. Personally I couldn't care less if a given provider has Lifetime in HD, for example. I'm not denigrating people who may watch that or any other channel, but "most HD" only counts if one or the other has the channel(s) I actually watch in HD.
> 
> For me, it's actually the opposite. If Charter can get CableCards working in my TiVos, I will be cancelling DirecTV because with a triple play bundle (phone+internet+TV), Charter is cheaper by $70 for the first year, $40 for the second year, and $30 after that than having Charter internet + DirecTV for TV.
> 
> With FiOS you can use a TiVo, who has 4 and 6 tuner versions along with "mini" clients that work much like the Genie. That's another disadvantage to DirecTV, their DVRs actually have real competition from cable and FiOS if you're willing to deal with a cablecard install (which I understand with FiOS is usually painless)


The problem with the Tivo's is you have a decently high upfront cost and then either a very high lifetime, or additional monthly charges.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

compnurd said:


> The problem with the Tivo's is you have a decently high upfront cost and then either a very high lifetime, or additional monthly charges.


Actually it's not that bad, depending on how long you keep it. I just did the math in a thread over at the Tivo community forums and if you consider the up front lease fee of a Genie (IE: you're not getting it free as a promo) it pays for itself in about 3 years. If you get the lifetime then it's even better because you either come out ahead every month past the break even date, or if you decide to sell and upgrade, TiVos with lifetime retain their resell value very, very well.


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## coolman302003 (Jun 2, 2008)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Equal:
> *To me, audio quality is identical*


Another fellow member here stated they noticed the audio volume to be noticeably lower on D* then FiOS.... http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/208443-new-subscriber-a-few-questionsobservations/#entry3192293



JosephB said:


> For me, it's actually the opposite. If Charter can get CableCards working in my TiVos, I will be cancelling DirecTV because with a triple play bundle (phone+internet+TV), Charter is cheaper by $70 for the first year, $40 for the second year, and $30 after that than having Charter internet + DirecTV for TV.


Charter may be cheaper but they don't offer NBA League Pass, NBA TV, NFL Sunday Ticket, SportSouth in HD; unlike D* they also do NOT offer FS South / SportSouth ALT overflow feeds for times when either Hawks, Grizzlies, Predators and/or Braves are on at the same time... I never could consider them as an option for TV service. However, I do have there internet service and it is quite good and reliable for the most part.

The one sports channel they do carry that I wouldn't mind having is CSS HD (jointly owned by Comcast/Charter), however I feel with the launch of the SEC Network in August 2014 this channel will have an even lower value for SEC sports anyway. I would much rather give up having CSS HD then SportSouth HD and the ALT/Overflows of FS South / SportSouth that D* carries.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

And in my area, well youd be nuts to have charter. A total disaster. Obviously his area must be better, we only have one hbo, one showtime, etc in hd in my area.. plus maybe half the hd channels directv has.And the pq suks to boot.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JosephB said:


> Actually it's not that bad, depending on how long you keep it. I just did the math in a thread over at the Tivo community forums and if you consider the up front lease fee of a Genie (IE: you're not getting it free as a promo) it pays for itself in about 3 years. If you get the lifetime then it's even better because you either come out ahead every month past the break even date, or if you decide to sell and upgrade, TiVos with lifetime retain their resell value very, very well.


I wouldnt go that far. I am a member on that forum and Premiere values with lifetime have not retained there value


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

coolman302003 said:


> Another fellow member here stated they noticed the audio volume to be noticeably lower on D* then FiOS.... http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/208443-new-subscriber-a-few-questionsobservations/#entry3192293
> 
> Charter may be cheaper but they don't offer NBA League Pass, NBA TV, NFL Sunday Ticket, SportSouth in HD; unlike D* they also do NOT offer FS South / SportSouth ALT overflow feeds for times when either Hawks, Grizzlies, Predators and/or Braves are on at the same time... I never could consider them as an option for TV service. However, I do have there internet service and it is quite good and reliable for the most part.
> 
> The one sports channel they do carry that I wouldn't mind having is CSS HD (jointly owned by Comcast/Charter), however I feel with the launch of the SEC Network in August 2014 this channel will have an even lower value for SEC sports anyway. I would much rather give up having CSS HD then SportSouth HD and the ALT/Overflows of FS South / SportSouth that D* carries.


Honestly, I couldn't give two spits about the SEC network. I'm already dreading when it launches since it's probably going to add several dollars to my bill, regardless of my provider. I also don't care about SportSouth in HD, except for the few Braves games that I sometimes randomly watch I never watch anything on Fox Sports South or SportSouth. My UAB Blazers play more often on CSS, and a good portion of their televised basketball games will be on CSS this year. I also don't watch the NBA nor do I subscribe to NFL Sunday Ticket.

Again, the "most HD" claim only counts when applied against the channels you watch.


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I'm not switching from D*, but I ended up getting VZ FiOS for < $10/month added to my VZ internet access. Added it primarily for Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia, which has been great, but I thought I'd note what I think are the advantages/disadvantages of FiOS.
> 
> (I've been a D* customer since 1997, and currently have 2 HR20's and 1 HR24)
> 
> ...


I switch from D to FIOS full time last month. I don't miss a thing outside of the channel organization.


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

JosephB said:


> The "most HD" claim both is and isn't completely subjective. It really comes down to the channels you watch. Personally I couldn't care less if a given provider has Lifetime in HD, for example. I'm not denigrating people who may watch that or any other channel, but "most HD" only counts if one or the other has the channel(s) I actually watch in HD.
> 
> For me, it's actually the opposite. If Charter can get CableCards working in my TiVos, I will be cancelling DirecTV because with a triple play bundle (phone+internet+TV), Charter is cheaper by $70 for the first year, $40 for the second year, and $30 after that than having Charter internet + DirecTV for TV.
> 
> With FiOS you can use a TiVo, who has 4 and 6 tuner versions along with "mini" clients that work much like the Genie. That's another disadvantage to DirecTV, their DVRs actually have real competition from cable and FiOS if you're willing to deal with a cablecard install (which I understand with FiOS is usually painless)


I have a HTPC with an Xbox extender in my son's room. Ceton infinity 4 I had since they 1st came out. I'm about to buy the 6 tuner and reduce my Verizon box count to 0.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

JosephB said:


> Again, the "most HD" claim only counts when applied against the channels you watch.


To the individual customer, yes. But the odds increase of finding things customers want when the count is higher for one system over another.


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## FlyBono24 (Jan 3, 2007)

I'm about to switch over to Verizon after DTV screwed me for the last time!!

http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/209042-terrible-service-i-am-done-with-directv/


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## mikellie (Mar 5, 2009)

The ONLY reason that I have been commited to DirecTV for the past 14 years, is NFL Sunday Ticket. And I've let it be known to them many times, that if they should ever lose it, they also lose me. I have been very happy with their customer service though. Every time I have ever called, they have been able to satisfy my complaints. It really makes a difference if you have the protection plan, they treat you better. I really wish that the NFL would control the NFL Sunday Ticket and make it available to every satellite and cable service in the country. Seems as though they would make millions of dollars more. Then, we would have the freedom to choose whatever provider we want without sacrificing our football team.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

mikellie said:


> The ONLY reason that I have been commited to DirecTV for the past 14 years, is NFL Sunday Ticket. And I've let it be known to them many times, that if they should ever lose it, they also lose me. I have been very happy with their customer service though. Every time I have ever called, they have been able to satisfy my complaints. It really makes a difference if you have the protection plan, they treat you better. I really wish that the NFL would control the NFL Sunday Ticket and make it available to every satellite and cable service in the country. Seems as though they would make millions of dollars more. Then, we would have the freedom to choose whatever provider we want without sacrificing our football team.


But can cable systems do NFL ST right? a very few system have all 9 team and game HD channels and even with them you still less HD then directv with MLB EI, NHL CI, NBA LP.

Dish still has the part time RSN's and does not have the room to show all games in HD.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

DirecTV has an exclusive on NFLST.

By the way, I've been spending more time comparing PQ. I'm convinced now that FiOS has better PQ on the 720p channels (FOX, ABC, ESPN). Did a blind test lat night during the USC/Stanford game - FiOS came out on top every time. (BTW - I have a professionally calibrated 65' Panny plasma).


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> DirecTV has an exclusive on NFLST.
> 
> By the way, I've been spending more time comparing PQ. I'm convinced now that FiOS has better PQ on the 720p channels (FOX, ABC, ESPN). Did a blind test lat night during the USC/Stanford game - FiOS came out on top every time. (BTW - I have a professionally calibrated 65' Panny plasma).


It's not really fair to use the networks to test... ESPN, FS1, and cable networks is more fair. Locals can really vary by market.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> DirecTV has an exclusive on NFLST.
> 
> By the way, I've been spending more time comparing PQ. I'm convinced now that FiOS has better PQ on the 720p channels (FOX, ABC, ESPN). Did a blind test lat night during the USC/Stanford game - FiOS came out on top every time. (BTW - I have a professionally calibrated 65' Panny plasma).


Hmm. I don't see that at all. In fact, fios can't pass through native without going into a hidden service menu. You have to pick 720 or 1080 from the box and the other is converted. That tells me the box is always conditioning. With the directv box, you can do pure native. And I see slightly better PQ on a lot of directv channels because of that.

SD is much better on fios, however.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Huh. I get native passthru on D* and ,V*. No secret menus. 
Just did another blind compare on ESPN Monday Night Football. My wife and I both chose V*. 


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Huh. I get native passthru on D* and ,V*. No secret menus.
> Just did another blind compare on ESPN Monday Night Football. My wife and I both chose V*.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


you may have a newer box. most of the fios boxes are those POS Motorola boxes that dont do native


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

compnurd said:


> you may have a newer box. most of the fios boxes are those POS Motorola boxes that dont do native


You just access the service menu -- pretty easy. And the fact you chose native does appear in the regular GUI, and you can switch out of native without going back to the service menu.

I had native turned on, but turned it off as I couldn't find any notable difference in PQ yet the channel changes are faster. They're instantaneous.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

wilbur_the_goose, on 03 Nov 2013 - 6:48 PM, said:


wilbur_the_goose said:


> Equal:
> *To me, audio quality is identical*


 


coolman302003 said:


> Another fellow member here stated they noticed the audio volume to be noticeably lower on D* then FiOS.... http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/208443-new-subscriber-a-few-questionsobservations/#entry3192293


Lower volume by itself has nothing to do with quality!


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> You just access the service menu -- pretty easy. And the fact you chose native does appear in the regular GUI, and you can switch out of native without going back to the service menu.
> 
> I had native turned on, but turned it off as I couldn't find any notable difference in PQ yet the channel changes are faster. They're instantaneous.


You need the service menu to get into it. You can get out of it via the normal menus. A service menu is secret. I have seen a drop in quality when I go out of the native mode. However, with my old TV, changing modes with Fios was so annoying (multiple flashes) that I turned it off. I am going to try it again with my new TV, which switches quicker.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> wilbur_the_goose, on 03 Nov 2013 - 6:48 PM, said:
> 
> Lower volume by itself has nothing to do with quality!


I have not seen (heard) a volume discrepancy. I switch all the time between the two. If there was, my AVR has an adjustment setting that I could use for volume from different sources.


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## ejbvt (Aug 14, 2011)

tonyd79 said:
 

> I have not seen (heard) a volume discrepancy. I switch all the time between the two. If there was, my AVR has an adjustment setting that I could use for volume from different sources.


With my AVR (Denon), I have my Directv input set with the maximum offset. To balance with the other inputs, most of them are -5. Trouble is, Pandora and YouTube are "normal" so it blasts my ears if I forget to reduce the volume.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> You need the service menu to get into it. You can get out of it via the normal menus. A service menu is secret. I have seen a drop in quality when I go out of the native mode. However, with my old TV, changing modes with Fios was so annoying (multiple flashes) that I turned it off. I am going to try it again with my new TV, which switches quicker.


Well, the 30 second skip on D* DVRs is secret too. So are all the fancy keywords you can use in autorecord. I understand where you're coming from, but it's not much of a secret. My installer asked if I wanted native mode or not.

My TV just had the single 2 second pause when changing resolutions. Notice I didn't say channels -- as you know (but others might not), if you change from a 1080i to another 1080i channel the screen doesn't flash and the channel change is immediate. Unfortunately, if you're watching a recording then press "stop", and live TV is tuned to a different resolution channel, the TV screen flashes black for two seconds because of the PIG. It's that behavior that made me disable native mode.

I set it to non-native 1080i. ESPN is just the tiniest bit blurrier. It doesn't bother me as I sit far enough from the TV that I can't tell, and I have 20/17 vision. If I were hosting a Superbowl party and the game was on FOX, I'd switch it to native mode just for that night. It takes me one minute to reboot and enter the service menu and change it, then the 7232 takes 2-3 minutes to reboot, download all the guide data, and repopulate the entire to do list. Not a big deal at all.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

30 skip and booleans are just "undocumented". A service menu is a little more than that as you don't want people in there, as messing something up can cause serious issues, like changing values in the service menu of a TV.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Have HR44, Roamio Plus, and FiOS 7232 all next to each other. Some day will post my thoughts.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I've been living with both for a while now. Some more observations:

1. The PQ on FiOS is definitely better across the board. SD is 100x better, HD is about 5% better.
2. The D* HR series is the clear winner. No RF remote control on FiOS, and it's very sensitive to off-axis IR issues.
3. The FiOS channel placement makes no sense - Makes D* look like it was laid out by a usability expert.
4. There is no way to hide SD duplicates on FiOS. A clear advantage for D*.

Don't shoot me for #1. It's true - the D* picture quality just isn't what it used to be, in my opinion.

PS - I watch a LOT of sports, and that's where I did my PQ compares.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I've been living with both for a while now. Some more observations:
> 
> 1. The PQ on FiOS is definitely better across the board. SD is 100x better, HD is about 5% better.
> 2. The D* HR series is the clear winner. No RF remote control on FiOS, and it's very sensitive to off-axis IR issues.
> ...


Those are pretty consistent (and objective) observations that I've seen firsthand and also read from a few other folks.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> 2. The D* HR series is the clear winner. No RF remote control on FiOS, and it's very sensitive to off-axis IR issues.


Agree lack of RF stinks if you need it, but I used my daughter and son-in-law's FiOS DVR a lot over the past 2 weeks, and I have no real issues with it at all. I am now very comfortable with both GUIs and can find things to like and dislike about each. I consider them equal. Just my .02, tho.

We got past the lack of IR with a couple of these kits. Their bedroom DVR is hidden in a closet and the living room DVR is located in the basement, along with the rest of the A/V equipment.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

To me, number 2 and 3 outweigh number 1, at least for hd. Number if hd channels or hd quality at some point isn't the most important factor when it's close. 

Sent from my Z10 using DBSTalk mobile app


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

I wiped out number #2 by just going with Roamio. The Roamio Slider Pro (keyboard) RF remote is especially nice.

As far as HD ...

DirecTV (Premier) has: 3net,Audience Network, Bloomberg Television, BTN Alternates, CBS Sports Network, Crime & Investigation, Disney Junior, DIY Network, Encore Action, Fox Soccer Plus, Fox Sports 2 (formerly Fuel TV), H2, Hallmark Channel, HLN, MLB Strike Zone, NBC Sports Premier League Extra, NFL Sunday Ticket, OWN, Playboy TV, Sho Beyond, Sho Next, Sho Women, Shorts HD, Starz Cinema, Starz in Black, Starz West, Turner Classic Movies.

FiOS (Ultimate HD) has: Cars.TV, Comedy.TV, Epix, Epix 2, ES.TV, ESPN Goal Line / Buzzer Beater, Fuse, HBO Comedy West, HBO Family West, HBO Latino West, HBO Signature West, HBO Zone West, HSN, Hub, MoreMax West, MyDestination.TV, Outdoor Channel, OuterMax, Oxygen, Pets.TV, Recipe.TV, Sho Extreme West, Showcase West, Showtime 2 West, TVGN, Universal Sports Network, WE tv, Wealth TV, World Fishing Network.

Epix has been a surprise, been recording a bunch of stuff.

Still working on my Roamio vs Genie observations, but's let's just say that there's some new interesting technologies out there.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

That is a benefit, if you don't like their own equipment, you have other options and not just a crippled thr. 

Sent from my Z10 using DBSTalk mobile app


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

The Roamio stuff looks awesome. Haven't personally kicked the tires on it yet, but based on observations from someone whose opinions I trust, it sounds like it's arguably the best DVR out there. That said, I discussed it with my daughter and son-in-law last night, and the value proposition isn't there, especially since they're very happy with their Verizon DVRs.

They've got 3 locations right now, with 2 HD DVRs, 4 recording tuners and about 120 hours total of HD storage total. They pay ~$42/month for both DVRs and one HD STB and multi-room service. No upfront dollars required.

If they go Roamio, for the cheapest model with built-in MoCA and streaming and two mini clients, they're looking at about $600 hardware costs, with monthly charges of ~$27 to TiVo + $5 to Verizon for the cable card. So they save $10/month over FiOS equipment, but their payback for up-front costs is 5 years, likely longer than the life of the equipment.

If they go with "lifetime service", they're looking at $600 in hardware and $800 in "lifetime" for the 3 TiVO boxes, but they'll save $37/month over FiOS. That's a payback of 38 months. Much better, but more cash than able to lay out up front, ATM.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Those are pretty consistent (and objective) observations that I've seen firsthand and also read from a few other folks.





wilbur_the_goose said:


> I've been living with both for a while now. Some more observations:
> 
> 1. The PQ on FiOS is definitely better across the board. SD is 100x better, HD is about 5% better.
> 2. The D* HR series is the clear winner. No RF remote control on FiOS, and it's very sensitive to off-axis IR issues.
> ...


1. Yep.
2. I find the FIOS DVR is better overall. It's response is instantaneous, and there is no unexpected lag when using the remote. The FIOS DVR has a few more quirks and doesn't do as much. It's a basic DVR. But what it does it does well. I agree with the FIOS remote issue, you have to point the remote towards the DVR though not directly at it.
3. I like the FIOS channel placement. All similar channels are grouped together, making it easier to find them. For example, the sports channels are between 570-599.
4. I miss that the most about D*, though a single push of the 'C' button switches you to the HD version of the channel. You could also go online and make a favorites list that removes the SD duplicates, but I haven't found the need to do that.

I also find myself using on-demand a lot more often with FIOS.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

If they go with "lifetime service", they're looking at $600 in hardware and $800 in "lifetime" for the 3 TiVO boxes, but they'll save $37/month over FiOS. That's a payback of 38 months. Much better, but more cash than they have to lay out up front, ATM.


I'd be careful with lifetime service, if a box goes bad, it can only be transferred to a new one if the old one was still under warranty. 

Sent from my Z10 using DBSTalk mobile app


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

dpeters11 said:


> I'd be careful with lifetime service, if a box goes bad, it can only be transferred to a new one if the old one was still under warranty.


When you activate the lifetime service there's a $39 extended warranty, which can be used once. Any replacement can also get an extended warranty. They also honor other warranties, Best Buy offers a 4 year. Usually the only thing that fails is the hard drive which can easily be replaced. The Roamio self formats easily for replacement or upgrade up to 3TB.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

My two cents as a long time Tivo owner...

I bought a Tivo Premiere when they first came out. Cost me $199 for the box, $39.99 for extended warranty, $299 for lifetime (back then it was $399, and I got a $100 discount for previously owning a Tivo) so $540 total. They were selling for $350-$400 on Ebay this summer before Roamio came out, now they're around $300. They hold resale value really well.

Basically in the 3 1/2 years I've owned it, it cost me $240, plus $1.99/month for a cable card. That's only $7/month. True, my warranty ran out six months ago, so if it died the following day I'd have paid $440 for three years (it would still allow a $100 savings on a replacement) or a couple dollars a month more than the less functional cable DVR. I'd pay a couple bucks a month more to rent a Tivo over a cable company DVR so worst case its a wash, and when it lasts longer I come out ahead. Way ahead if it lasts so long I end up selling it while it still works instead of waiting for it to die.

You'd have to plug in the numbers for renting a cable company DVR and renting a cable card to see how it works for you. Some companies screw you badly on the cable card to make Tivos a less attractive choice.

My one major gripe with Tivo (aside from adding useless features instead of fixing bugs in the main functionality, which is a complaint valid for all DVRs and many product categories for that matter) is that there is no way to transfer all your settings from an old Tivo to a new one. Until they rectify that, I'm never upgrading this one, especially since I see little value in a Roamio over a Premiere.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I've been living with both for a while now. Some more observations:
> 
> 1. The PQ on FiOS is definitely better across the board. SD is 100x better, HD is about 5% better.
> 2. The D* HR series is the clear winner. No RF remote control on FiOS, and it's very sensitive to off-axis IR issues.
> ...


I disagree on #1. If anything, I'd give the 5% to directv. I see small breakdowns on fios I don't see on directv. However, Epix on fios is outstanding. Don't know how it would be on directv, obviously, but it is stunning. Espn actually looks better on directv.

The SD difference goes to fios but nowhere near 100x. Especially when I have direct on original format. Maybe 25-50% better overall though I've seen some channels (Boomerang) which is better on directv but really, really close.

Fios has been playing with their PQ lately. They are transcoding most mpeg4 channels to mpeg2 as they are even more stubborn with legacy than directv and there are reports that they are squeezing some mpeg2 qams.

BTW, my thoughts are with 2 different tvs now as I just got a new one. And most of the time I cannot tell what system I am looking at but when I do comparisons, I see what I see.

Edit to add: PQ for fios is either regional or highly dependent on the box. My sister lives in another county and has on older box. Whichever reason, her PQ is noticeably worse than mine on shared locals and cable channels.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Tony - thanks for adding your input. I mostly watch sports, and I'm convinced that FiOS is has better picture quality than DirecTV.

I only wish D* would bump their PQ back to what it used to be, but I think we "PQ Snobs" lost out to the people that wanted quantity over quality.
------------------
BTW - I've also been playing with FiOS's VOD. It's a full technological generation better than D*. For example, CBS is all HD, and shows start playing in 1080i about 2 seconds after an episode is selected.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Tony - thanks for adding your input. I mostly watch sports, and I'm convinced that FiOS is has better picture quality than DirecTV.
> 
> I only wish D* would bump their PQ back to what it used to be, but I think we "PQ Snobs" lost out to the people that wanted quantity over quality.
> ------------------
> BTW - I've also been playing with FiOS's VOD. It's a full technological generation better than D*. For example, CBS is all HD, and shows start playing in 1080i about 2 seconds after an episode is selected.


I haven't seen a drop. And there is zero evidence that there is one.

I will say that for HD, they are extremely close and other factors such as hardware, switches, TV's, etc. probably plays a bigger part than if you have fios or directv.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Steve said:


> The Roamio stuff looks awesome. Haven't personally kicked the tires on it yet, but based on observations from someone whose opinions I trust, it sounds like it's arguably the best DVR out there. That said, I discussed it with my daughter and son-in-law last night, and the value proposition isn't there, especially since they're very happy with their Verizon DVRs.
> 
> They've got 3 locations right now, with 2 HD DVRs, 4 recording tuners and about 120 hours total of HD storage total. They pay ~$42/month for both DVRs and one HD STB and multi-room service. No upfront dollars required.
> 
> ...


 The Roamio is arguably NOT the best DVR out there. May want to head over to tivocommunity website. Many.. Many people with problems with those DVR's and the tuners.... and quite frankly after the Premiere was so slow.. anything faster would be better


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

compnurd said:


> The Roamio is arguably NOT the best DVR out there. May want to head over to tivocommunity website. Many.. Many people with problems with those DVR's and the tuners.... and quite frankly after the Premiere was so slow.. anything faster would be better


Maybe with some with tuning adapters, but just about every review I've seen has been positive. Been A+ for me.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

compnurd said:


> The Roamio is arguably NOT the best DVR out there. May want to head over to tivocommunity website.


Show me any DVR from _any _MSO that isn't without issues. :shrug:

http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/207533-freezingpixelation-issues-on-your-genie-heres-how-you-can-help/page-8#entry3203346


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Sixto said:


> Maybe with some with tuning adapters, but just about every review I've seen has been positive. Been A+ for me.


Review maybe.... but not from actual users over there


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Steve said:


> Show me any DVR from _any _MSO that isn't without issues. :shrug:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/207533-freezingpixelation-issues-on-your-genie-heres-how-you-can-help/page-8#entry3203346


True but my HR44 makes my old Premiere seem like it was an old SA8300 box... while the roamio may be faster.. it still has tuner issues the only thing i miss from the Tivo side is Season Pass and To do list modifications from the app and the website... and the streaming in the app and not 2 seperate apps


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

Tony - thanks for adding your input. I mostly watch sports, and I'm convinced that FiOS is has better picture quality than DirecTV.

I only wish D* would bump their PQ back to what it used to be, but I think we "PQ Snobs" lost out to the people that wanted quantity over quality..
I agree, even with the 2 short weeks I spent with fios the pq was better then directv, and despite tonys claim I do feel as well directvs HD is not what it was. 

Sent from my PantechP8010 using DBSTalk mobile app


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

compnurd said:


> True but my HR44 makes my old Premiere seem like it was an old SA8300 box... while the roamio may be faster.. it still has tuner issues the only thing i miss from the Tivo side is Season Pass and To do list modifications from the app and the website... and the streaming in the app and not 2 seperate apps


Agree. Remote management of season passes and the TDL from the web or a mobile device is now a required "DVR 101" feature, IMHO. What I also miss from the HR10 is the ability to edit the CIG list myself. I also liked the ability to immediately see the results of recording changes I made in the To Do List. And from what I understand, the Roamio has 6 concurrent live buffers of 30 minutes each.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Steve said:
 

> Agree. Remote management of season passes and the TDL from the web or a mobile device is now a required "DVR 101" feature, IMHO. What I also miss from the HR10 is the ability to edit the CIG list myself. I also liked the ability to immediately see the results of recording changes I made in the To Do List. And from what I understand, the Roamio has 6 concurrent live buffers of 30 minutes each.


I dont think they are concurrent live... I remember with my old Premiere 4, only the foreground tuner buffered.. all others had to be recording


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

compnurd said:


> I dont think they are concurrent live... I remember with my old Premiere 4, only the foreground tuner buffered.. all others had to be recording


Could be, but according to this review:



> You can still maintain a live buffer for each tuner at the same time, perfect for when there are six college football games on at the same time.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

compnurd said:


> I dont think they are concurrent live... I remember with my old Premiere 4, only the foreground tuner buffered.. all others had to be recording


All 6 tuners are buffered 24x7, and each can be individually selected from the Info menu. Also if you select a channel that happens to be in one of the 6 buffers then it automatically switches to that buffer. I've read almost every Roamio and Mini thread at TCF, certainly no major issues from FiOS users. I have the HR44 and Roamio Pro side-by-side. Both are excellent. My thoughts will be online some day.


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## Phil17108 (Apr 10, 2010)

I have been a DirecTV customer form 1998 on after switcing to Dish for one year in 97. I had Verizon for every thing ells, land lines, internet and cell service.
I dumped them last year over there pricing. There cell phone service was just to high and they only gave my wife and I 500 minutes between us with no text or internet. Verizon was all the time sending flyers and phone calls trying to get me on Fios with real cheep pricing, but that was for not much and by the time i had what DirecTV gave me I bet the price would just skyrocket after the first year. When I read cut the cable the one I think of is phone.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> BTW - I've also been playing with FiOS's VOD. It's a full technological generation better than D*. For example, CBS is all HD, and shows start playing in 1080i about 2 seconds after an episode is selected.


well, that is to be expected, as they provide the internet as well


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

damondlt said:


> I agree, even with the 2 short weeks I spent with fios the pq was better then directv, and despite tonys claim I do feel as well directvs HD is not what it was


I think it just depends on your vision and how far away you're sitting from the TV. I had FiOS and DirecTV boxes connected to my 65" 1080p plasma last year, and from my normal 10'-12' away with 20-20 vision, PQ looked about the same. At 8' or less, I could see the difference.

And there wasn't any difference between the NYC OTA signal I receive and FiOS PQ at any distance. That backs up their claims that they simply deliver the signal the networks give them, with no add'l processing that might degrade the picture.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Steve said:


> I think it just depends on your vision and how far away you're sitting from the TV. I had FiOS and DirecTV boxes connected to my 65" 1080p plasma last year, and from my normal 10'-12' away with 20-20 vision, PQ looked about the same. At 8' or less, I could see the difference.
> 
> And there wasn't any difference between the NYC OTA signal I receive and FiOS PQ at any distance. That backs up their claims that they simply deliver the signal the networks give them, with no add'l processing that might degrade the picture.


"Might degrade the picture" is a big clause because fios does condition. They do not pass mpeg4 directly. Nor does directv pass mpeg2 directly. They both transcode some channels so neither passes the signal purely.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> "Might degrade the picture" is a big clause because fios does condition. They do not pass mpeg4 directly. Nor does directv pass mpeg2 directly. They both transcode some channels so neither passes the signal purely.


I guess they made that "no degradation in quality" statement when all their channels were MPEG-2. All i know is I get the east coast network feeds via OTA directly from the Empire State Building, and, last year, the FiOS equivalents were identical, no matter how close I sat to the TV.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

compnurd said:


> I dont think they are concurrent live... I remember with my old Premiere 4, only the foreground tuner buffered.. all others had to be recording


You're either mistaken or your Premiere was defective. I have the dual tuner Premiere and it buffers both all the time, whether it is turned on or in standby, and has done so from the day I bought it. Occasionally I'll turn it on and if whatever happens to be on is interesting I'll backup the full 30 minutes so I can watch what was buffered. I do this often enough I kind of wish the 30 minutes was configurable


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> You're either mistaken or your Premiere was defective. I have the dual tuner Premiere and it buffers both all the time, whether it is turned on or in standby, and has done so from the day I bought it. Occasionally I'll turn it on and if whatever happens to be on is interesting I'll backup the full 30 minutes so I can watch what was buffered. I do this often enough I kind of wish the 30 minutes was configurable


I had 2 2-Tuners premieres and 1 premiere 4... all would not buffer all tuners when swapping between them


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

How were you switching between tuners? You have to do it with the Live TV button, if you use the Prev button or enter channel numbers you are just switching channels on a single tuner.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

damondlt said:


> I agree, even with the 2 short weeks I spent with fios the pq was better then directv, and despite tonys claim I do feel as well directvs HD is not what it was.
> 
> Sent from my PantechP8010 using DBSTalk mobile app


Agree 100%. I've even started watching sports on FiOS because the PQ is so much better.

D* used to be THE BEST, but they simply have dropped the ball and now are a PQ laggard. I'm talking about HD here (I don't think anybody would claim that D* had even fair SD PQ anymore)


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

Our local Blue ridge Cable, has HD PQ right up there with Directv.

If they offered a Whole home system like Directv does, I would consider switching back.
If Verizon Fios came to town, yea I would consider my options.


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## celticpride (Sep 6, 2006)

I know of 3 ways to get live buffers on my tivo premiere 2 tuner model,1 press ''live tv'',2 press info in menu go down to next tuner press select,3 simply press enter button it takes you back to previous channel with the full 30 minute buffer!


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

peds48 said:


> That just about sums it up for me....


FIOS is not yet available in my area, so it's either cable (one cable company) or satellite. My cable company wanted more money for Encore channels that were not in HD, bars on sides. DTV has Encore in HD. :righton:


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

JosephB said:


> Actually it's not that bad, depending on how long you keep it. I just did the math in a thread over at the Tivo community forums and if you consider the up front lease fee of a Genie (IE: you're not getting it free as a promo) it pays for itself in about 3 years. If you get the lifetime then it's even better because you either come out ahead every month past the break even date, or if you decide to sell and upgrade, TiVos with lifetime retain their resell value very, very well.


Just wondering - are they honoring their old lifetime subs going back to DirecTivo?


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