# CED: 2006-06-14 : Wbotstbahdmp4aadwwbbc



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I kinda liked to title (thanks APK), and the idea for the CED (Craiger). 


Craiger said:


> web browser on their set-top boxes and HD MPeg 4 and analog DVR's and they would all come with a wireless broadband connection





APK said:


> Wbotstbahdmp4aadwwbbc


With discussion of WiMax and other broadband support possible comming to DirecTV products...

Should it be done?
If so, how? 
What kind of broadband features would you like to see in the DirecTV products.

Previous CED's
----------------------------------------------------

2006-04-12: - Networking 
2006-03-16: - Prioritizier / Scheduler 
2006-03-17: - FindBy 
2006-03-20: - Confirmation and Other Dialogs boxes 
2006-03-23: - Trick Play (FF/RW and others) 
2006-03-29: - Active Content 
2006-04-05: - GUI Enhancements 

Future IDEA Thread
----------------------------------------------------
 Ideas for future CED's


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## davidrumm (Dec 2, 2005)

I think it would be nice to have a web browser as a PIP so you can have a tv program on and pull stats and other information at the same time.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

After re-reading the title...

I need to add:

I personally think; if the DO add internal WIRELESS connections....
PLEASE, install both a Wired and Wireless connections then...

IMHO, items like this (That don't move around) should be WIRED to the home network.

I know it is not practicle (or even possible) for everyone to have a WIRED connections..... but in more cases then not, it can be done....

If the device isn't going to be moving around...... Wired is the best way to go.

(FYI: In my house I have it fully wired, as well as wireless... there is a place for both)

(NOTE #2: Those Wired->Wireless adapters, really need to drop in price....)


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## Hokie01 (Jun 9, 2006)

Wired is great for a box that doesn't move around in a house that you're able to wire for that purpose. Unfortunately, I live in an apartment so I can't wire the place without a lot of hassle. Wireless is great for me so I don't have to go ripping up carpet and trying to hide wires all over the place. You're on the money, Early, saying that they should have both installed and let the user choose the best for the situation.

The ideal use (IMO) for a wired or wireless connection would be to get rid of the friggin' phone line!

The PIP web browser would be nice but I already have my laptop hooked into my TV and can PIP it in already, so for me it's not so much an issue.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

davidrumm said:


> I think it would be nice to have a web browser as a PIP so you can have a tv program on and pull stats and other information at the same time.


All of DirecTV's branded recievers support Java, MHP, and HTML, there is even an email app for DirecTV LA customers.

That's what I want, an email app.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Do you have a source for that? MHP is part of DVB, which would lead me to believe you're thinking of Echostar.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

BTW, they've done such a stellar job so far: sure, I'll connect their box to the public Internet :eek2:


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

walters said:


> BTW, they've done such a stellar job so far: sure, I'll connect their box to the public Internet :eek2:


I'd glady connect the R15 to the Internet. But, I'm an information security researcher.  My guess is that the bad guys could store lots on information on an R15, which would be even more suitable for this purpose than an HP printer.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

walters said:


> Do you have a source for that? MHP is part of DVB, which would lead me to believe you're thinking of Echostar.


Java DVB-MHP 1.03 compliant
Support for emerging standards such as OCAP
Support for HTML 4.0, JavaScript 1.4, DOM 1, CSS 2

http://nds.com/middleware/mediahighway_advanced.html

I guess it supports more than I thought. DirecTV uses MediaHighway for their interactive solutions (according to NDS).


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

wbmccarty said:


> I'd glady connect the R15 to the Internet. But, I'm an information security researcher.  My guess is that the bad guys could store lots on information on an R15, which would be even more suitable for this purpose than an HP printer.


Actually none of us can get the info off tha machine so if they figure a way to get it on there then maybe the hackers can tell us how to get it off and on.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> Actually none of us can get the info off tha machine so if they figure a way to get it on there then maybe the hackers can tell us how to get it off and on.


"Hackers don't tell. That's why they call them hackers," (Danny DeVito as Mickey Bergman in the 2004 David Mamet film _Heist_, paraphrased).


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

wbmccarty said:


> "Hackers don't tell. That's why they call them hackers," (Danny DeVito as Mickey Bergman in the 2004 David Mamet film _Heist_, paraphrased).


Ahhhh but they do tell if you ask them the right way


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> Ahhhh but they do tell if you ask them the right way


Perhaps true. But, one can certainly learn a lot about, and from, them without even asking.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> Actually none of us can get the info off tha machine so if they figure a way to get it on there then maybe the hackers can tell us how to get it off and on.


Right now there's no network connection for the R15 and nothing listening on various ports. Turn on some ports and expose your R15 to the 'net and you're asking for a world of hurt. They can't even get the software working as advertised, what do you think will happen once the kids overseas start port scanning your R15. How many exploits do you think they'll find.

Sorry, I'm spending the week at the CSI NetSec 2006 Conference and there's no way I'd trust the questionable programming practices demonstrated by the R15 connected to the Internet. I've got enough Laptops and PCs that can browse, I just want my DVR to be a robust DVR.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Sorry, I'm spending the week at the CSI NetSec 2006 Conference....


Grab Anton Chuvakin after his session and tell him you're interested in setting up an R15 as a "honeypot." Anton is a research colleague of mine who'd likely be very interested in what might be learned from such an experiment.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

I betcha $0.01 that not even professional hackers can get the content off of the hard drive AND hack up the VideoGuard tech to view the content.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

wbmccarty said:


> Grab Anton Chuvakin after his session and tell him you're interested in setting up an R15 as a "honeypot." Anton is a research colleague of mine who'd likely be very interested in what might be learned from such an experiment.


You work for netForensics? Not a bad gig!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

jonaswan2 said:


> I betcha $0.01 that not even professional hackers can get the content off of the hard drive AND hack up the VideoGuard tech to view the content.


What's a "professional hacker"?


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> What's a "professional hacker"?


I made it up. It mean "a person who so good at what it considered hacking, they should get payed for it." People make up words and phrases every day right?


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> You work for netForensics? Not a bad gig!


No, I've never worked for NF. And, as I recall, Anton no longer does so either. I believe he's now an independent consultant and that the conference speakers list reflects out-of-date information. Then again, he and NF may have reconciled. 

Anton and I are part of a group that uses a particular technology, called a honeynet, to learn about the bad guys.

P.S. I you can provide any information that indicates the R15 is aware of, and capable of responding to, its network environment I'll buy an R15 and put it on the Internet myself. A honeynet would mitigate the obvious risks that might result from compromise and unauthorized use of the R15.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> What's a "professional hacker"?


Actually, quite a few people make a living as professional hackers. Some work as contractors evaluating the security of clients' networks ("pen testers" or "whitehat hackers"). Others work outside the law ("blackhat hackers"). For the most part, only the young and careless blackhat hackers seem to get caught.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

wbmccarty said:


> Actually, quite a few people make a living as professional hackers. Some work as contractors evaluating the security of clients' networks ("pen testers" or "whitehat hackers"). Others work outside the law ("blackhat hackers"). For the most part, only the young and careless blackhat hackers seem to get caught.


And...
Some serve in the military. There is a fairly new 'network attack/defense' specialty in the crypto community (I almost switched to this myself).

Others for civilian government. Check the CIA and FBI employment websites.

ApK


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I guess I just wouldn't classify those positions/individuals as "professional hackers".


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Alright... enough about the hackers...

Back to features....

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A nice hook would be say for the the Food Network.
That an "interactive" button came up... that could say: Print "Grocery" list for the show they are airing.... 

Or on Monster Garage or something... Print Specs on that Engine...


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> A nice hook would be say for the the Food Network.
> That an "interactive" button came up... that could say: Print "Grocery" list for the show they are airing....


It would be better if it cooked it for you too


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> It would be better if it cooked it for you too


IF that worked... then I might have to pay for Titanium to get the upper 500 channels more often


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> IF that worked... then I might have to pay for Titanium to get the upper 500 channels more often


LOL


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Alright... enough about the hackers...
> 
> Back to features....
> 
> ...


I actually saw something on FoodTV once it was a Microsoft kitchen. It knew what was in the fridge, would display the ingredients list on your counter where you where going to work, it would then tell you how to make it, preheat the oven and set the timer once you put it in. I also knew IF you had all the ingedients to make this recipe as it used RFID tags in the food when you brought it in the house. Was actually very interesting.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> I actually saw something on FoodTV once it was a Microsoft kitchen. It knew what was in the fridge, would display the ingredients list on your counter where you where going to work, it would then tell you how to make it, preheat the oven and set the timer once you put it in. I also knew IF you had all the ingedients to make this recipe as it used RFID tags in the food when you brought it in the house. Was actually very interesting.


Think I've seen that before too. Along with a shopping cart that new what you had in it so you didn't have to unload it for the cashier.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> I actually saw something on FoodTV once it was a Microsoft kitchen.


I'd be very concerned about the safety of a Microsoft kitchen. In particular, the story of Hansel and Gretel comes to mind.... But, I do agree that such a presentation would be interesting. I'm sorry to have missed it.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

wbmccarty said:


> I'd be very concerned about the safety of a Microsoft kitchen. In particular, the story of Hansel and Gretel comes to mind.... But, I do agree that such a presentation would be interesting. I'm sorry to have missed it.


Microsoft R&D just happened to be the one they covered in this episode as it was about the kitchen and whole house automation. I think other companies such as GE and the like have worked on such concepts in the past. All in all it was a very interesting show. Also as mentioned above I do think this was the episode where they talked about the RFID shopping carts so you could bag the food as you put it in the cart then just pay and leave the store. Much like an advanced version of the you scan checkout lanes many stores are installing now. This had nothing to walk up to as you could even run your credit card through the display on the shopping cart.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> This had nothing to walk up to as you could even run your credit card through the display on the shopping cart.


Well that is already out dated... my local grocery store lets you use your thumb print.

What another "advertising" feature would be... would be a link out or print out, for products used during a show.

Again say for Food Network: Good Eats, he is always at Bed Bath and Beyond looking at items... Kinda like Home Shoping network on 'roids


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well that is already out dated... my local grocery store lets you use your thumb print.
> 
> What another "advertising" feature would be... would be a link out or print out, for products used during a show.
> 
> Again say for Food Network: Good Eats, he is always at Bed Bath and Beyond looking at items... Kinda like Home Shoping network on 'roids


They could link to t BB&B website add something to your cart have it charged to your D* account and have it shipped to your door by W.  I liked her in the I dream of geanie episode :lol:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> They could link to t BB&B website add something to your cart have it charged to your D* account and have it shipped to your door by W.  I liked her in the I dream of geanie episode :lol:


I think we are now getting somewhere, the advertisers could really like these DVRs after all..


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I think we are now getting somewhere, the advertisers could really like these DVRs after all..


It would be cool if you could get the recipe from the show say even emailed to you along with links of where to gadgets in the show. If it did the broswer in a PIP window that would be sort of cool but i would rather have the system automated to send me the information to a machine that I know can actually handle all the content on a given site.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

A lot of this is already possible with TiVo, even the crippled DirecTV versions. I ordered and received a Lexus brochure the other day just to see how it would work.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well that is already out dated... my local grocery store lets you use your thumb print.


Are you joking? If not which one?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Are you joking? If not which one?


Nope, not joking.

Jewel (part of Albertson's or who ever owns them now)

They have the option to setup your THUMB PRINT to your Checking Account, or Credit Card.

Then they have a scanner right at the checkout counter..

I personally haven't tried it yet, but they are certainly there.

(It is also at Cub foods too ... which is part of the "Jewel" family)


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Hmm, and here it is:

http://www.paybytouch.com/

Alas, no stores in my area.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

walters said:


> A lot of this is already possible with TiVo, even the crippled DirecTV versions. I ordered and received a Lexus brochure the other day just to see how it would work.


Yes you are correct Tivo has had what you are talking about for some time. I always thought it was sort of lame and missed the mark on being useful. It's more of an opt-in marketing tool as they use it. I would like ot see it expanded on for full email and other sort of interactivity. I don't care if it's Tivo or D* who does it I am covered on both sides.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

walters said:


> Hmm, and here it is:
> 
> http://www.paybytouch.com/
> 
> Alas, no stores in my area.


Yep, that is it...


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nope, not joking.
> 
> Jewel (part of Albertson's or who ever owns them now)
> 
> ...


I'll have to go check that out. We usally do the shopping at Sam's or Costco. It's amazing what can be done these days.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> Yes you are correct Tivo has had what you are talking about for some time. I always thought it was sort of lame and missed the mark on being useful. It's more of an opt-in marketing tool as they use it. I would like ot see it expanded on for full email and other sort of interactivity. I don't care if it's Tivo or D* who does it I am covered on both sides.


Ah, Tivo was Lame and missed the mark on their advertising. Yet the R15/NDS/DTV (who/whatever we're now suppose to refer to this as) still had not completed:

Getting SLs to work;
Getting VOD to work;
Getting Showcases/or whatever they are called, to work;
Getting any of the other MANY bugs fixed.
I'm sorry, but this lack of updates concerns me. I got the 10B8 update the end of April (remember I got 10C0 May 5th) and since the end of April, nothing has happened. Boy, this next update better have some serious bug fixes and some serious enhancements in it.

Or, we'll soon find out the R15 will not receive any more updates and the next generation SD DVR will be released June 28th (I'm guessing the R20 and the HR20). Then all of us that were waiting for the R15 to be fixed can pay another $99 to get the next generation SD DVR from DTV. Boy, that sounds like a good deal.


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## flynlr (Jan 21, 2006)

I can only dream but this box is a media server without the connections to be one. want to be able to connect to my local LAn and stream any content from any puter on the network... as I said I can dream


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I'll have to go check that out. We usally do the shopping at Sam's or Costco. It's amazing what can be done these days.


all those baggers and clerks out of jobs...... bad deal. Do they give you a discount for doing their work for them? We had you-scans at a local store and I would only go where ther was a person working. The cost to me was the same and I wouldn't want all those pretty young ladies to be unemployed.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Ah, Tivo was Lame and missed the mark on their advertising. Yet the R15/NDS/DTV (who/whatever we're now suppose to refer to this as) still had not completed:
> Getting SLs to work;
> Getting VOD to work;
> Getting Showcases/or whatever they are called, to work;
> ...


Once again may I ask what your are commenting on has to do with whats being discussed in here? It has nothing to do with what I was discussing nor does it have any place in this thread. If things like this cannot be kept out of threads they will be removed. I am getting a little annoyed with the fact that certain people seem to feel the need to use most occassions to try and slip in some sort of dig at this or that not working correctly. I was referring to a very poor use of a technology that another company built when they could have done much more with it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> I'm sorry, but this lack of updates concerns me. I got the 10B8 update the end of April (remember I got 10C0 May 5th) and since the end of April, nothing has happened. Boy, this next update better have some serious bug fixes and some serious enhancements in it.
> 
> Or, we'll soon find out the R15 will not receive any more updates and the next generation SD DVR will be released June 28th (I'm guessing the R20 and the HR20). Then all of us that were waiting for the R15 to be fixed can pay another $99 to get the next generation SD DVR from DTV. Boy, that sounds like a good deal.


I can guarantee you... the R15 has another update comming... no date yet.
But there is an update being worked on....

As of right now, there is R20 nor plans in the relative near future for such a device.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> Once again may I ask what your are commenting on has to do with whats being discussed in here? It has nothing to do with what I was discussing nor does it have any place in this thread. If things like this cannot be kept out of threads they will be removed. I am getting a little annoyed with the fact that certain people seem to feel the need to use most occassions to try and slip in some sort of dig at this or that not working correctly. I was referring to a very poor use of a technology that another company built when they could have done much more with it.


If I'm not mistaken we're discussing possible enhancements for the R15. In this thread you mentioned:


Clint Lamor said:


> It would be cool if you could get the recipe from the show say even emailed to you along with links of where to gadgets in the show. If it did the broswer in a PIP window that would be sort of cool but i would rather have the system automated to send me the information to a machine that I know can actually handle all the content on a given site.


walters replied:


walters said:


> A lot of this is already possible with TiVo, even the crippled DirecTV versions. I ordered and received a Lexus brochure the other day just to see how it would work.


you replied:


Clint Lamor said:


> Yes you are correct Tivo has had what you are talking about for some time. I always thought it was sort of lame and missed the mark on being useful. It's more of an opt-in marketing tool as they use it. I would like ot see it expanded on for full email and other sort of interactivity. I don't care if it's Tivo or D* who does it I am covered on both sides.


...and my reply was calling attention to your view of Tivo's "lame" implementation of this function and your opinion that they "missed the mark". While at the same time, IMO, the R15 is a "lame" DVR and has missed the mark in that it still cannot reliably perform even basic DVR functions.

I'm sorry I'm annoying you Clint. But it's a two way street here. Over and over you take the opportunity to voice your opinions on how Tivos are lacking in this area or are lame in another area. I get somewhat annoyed at that but you have the right to voice your opinion just as I have the right to voice my opinion.

I guess I don't see why my post regarding the R15's problems should be removed from this thread and your post regarding Tivo's lame implementation of a feature is allowed in this thread.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> If I'm not mistaken we're discussing possible enhancements for the R15. In this thread you mentioned:
> 
> walters replied:
> 
> ...


Explain to me how me saying that a bad implementation on the Tivo of something they could have done much better gives the right to start bashing the R15 saying the entire DVR is lame and so forth? The Tivo is very good hardware and software in many aspects but I am sorry MANY of the decisions they have made in direction are very poor. I do not have issues with people point out that the R15 has problem X, Y or Z I do take issue with it needing to be pointed out in almost every thread that is on this board. The R15 missing X recording or recording too many of show Y has absolutley nothing to do with them adding a new feature at some point or that Tivo could have done better in a certain area.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> The R15 missing X recording or recording too many of show Y has absolutley nothing to do with them adding a new feature....


I respectfully, but vigorously, disagree. Abundant evidence supports the reverse of your opinion.

Let's start, rather aribtrarirly, with consideration of the software testing process. How do you propose that DTV test for correct implementation of a new feature when even superficial testing would fail owing to any one of many known defects reported in this forum? For instance, what would be the proper behavior (that is, the test oracle) of a new feature used immediately following a Find By Title operation (which, due to an existing software defect, appears to corrupt the stack or heap)?

The bottom line is that until a software product is sufficiently free of defects, it's not possible to implement and test new features unless the development group shortcuts good software development practices such as testing. In the long run, it's in everyone's interest that such shortcuts _not_ be taken.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> Explain to me how me saying that a bad implementation on the Tivo of something they could have done much better gives the right to start bashing the R15 saying the entire DVR is lame and so forth? The Tivo is very good hardware and software in many aspects but I am sorry MANY of the decisions they have made in direction are very poor. I do not have issues with people point out that the R15 has problem X, Y or Z I do take issue with it needing to be pointed out in almost every thread that is on this board. The R15 missing X recording or recording too many of show Y has absolutley nothing to do with them adding a new feature at some point or that Tivo could have done better in a certain area.


There is nothing wrong with discussion of new features as long as existing problems are addressed. Since the release of the R15 all we have seen is the 30 second slip added and other very small stability issues addressed.

*The fact that the R15 is not yet a reliable DVR is the #1 issue in my opinion.* Above all future features planned by DTV or future enhancements dreamed up by the members of this forum, I think many here will have a huge problem if a feature like DirecTV2Go or VOD is enabled before problems such as those I mentioned above are fixed, you'll be hearing alot more complaints in every thread.

As I said, my point here is that you stated:


Clint Lamor said:


> If things like this cannot be kept out of threads they will be removed.


Things like this are the problem with the R15 and will continue to be addressed by forum members. If you and the other Mods wish to keep all threads on topic and remove any posts that are not on topic that's your decision. But keep it consistent. Don't take the approach of removing OT posts only if they bash the R15 while leaving OT posts such as what someone's favorite football team is.

*EDIT: If you would like to discuss this further we probably should take this to another thread.*


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

The problem i see, is that this thread has begun to take a "southerly direction" just as quite a few have in past months. The tension that has been built because D* has decided to basically put any TiVo based DVR on its "hit list", and make the R15 it's current "boss", are one of the problems encompassing this forum. This, coupled with many problems that users are experiencing with the R15, has maybe prompted some of us to begin to attempt to "adhere to the forum guidelines, in that, this is a "support forum" constructed specifically for the R15.

This forum is "heavily monitored" by D*, and needs to be somewhat free of in tangled garbage that they must wade through in order to actually read legitimate posts concerning problems users are experiencing with their product. Constant bashing, threatening cancellations of service, lawsuits, or what have you, is doing nothing to ensure that the correct information is getting to the right people. Put yourselves in their shoes.............if every time you came to this forum to see how your product is progressing, you had to wade through many bashing and threatening posts, you'd most likely leave without getting the information you came for. 

We as internet users are use to this type of discussion, but these guys or gals are not your typical internet forum users, and do not comprehend the means in which we discuss various issues.

Both sides of the fence here, have contributed their share of not following the "guidelines" for a "support forum" (myself included), and the staff has unfortunately let it get that way because we do not want to put a plug in healthy discussion about a new product, but there comes a time when enough is enough. We need the problems fixed but unfortunately, all of us are guilty of slowing down the process, when the "way OT" posts, out-number the relevant issues.

As "Mods", we have the responsibility to ensure smooth-flowing discussion within the guidelines, hence, decisions regarding threads and posts that are deemed outside of these guidelines, are made at the discretion of the "DBSTalk Staff", not just from the Mods assigned to this particular forum.

Regardless of our title here, whether it be Mod or Member, we are all in the same boat. We expect our purchases to perform up to our expectations, and when they don't, we expect someone to fix it. Tempers will flare, mud will sling, name-calling will be made, but we aren't doing ourselves justice by taking this route.:backtotop :rant:


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Donnie Byrd said:


> This forum is "heavily monitored" by D*, and needs to be somewhat free of in tangled garbage that they must wade through in order to actually read legitimate posts concerning problems users are experiencing with their product. Constant bashing, threatening cancellations of service, lawsuits, or what have you, is doing nothing to ensure that the correct information is getting to the right people. Put yourselves in their shoes.............if every time you came to this forum to see how your product is progressing, you had to wade through many bashing and threatening posts, you'd most likely leave without getting the information you came for.


I must take issue with that, Donnie. The fact that D* lurks here for information while failing to provide any official source of information to us is sad to say the least. This is our forum. We're not here to support D*. I am glad to hear that they do monitor and use the info to improve the unit, but if we suddenly cease to complaints/bashing it will give the artificail appearance that user satisfaction has improved. I get tired of hearing it too, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

wbmccarty said:


> I respectfully, but vigorously, disagree. Abundant evidence supports the reverse of your opinion.
> 
> Let's start, rather aribtrarirly, with consideration of the software testing process. How do you propose that DTV test for correct implementation of a new feature when even superficial testing would fail owing to any one of many known defects reported in this forum? For instance, what would be the proper behavior (that is, the test oracle) of a new feature used immediately following a Find By Title operation (which, due to an existing software defect, appears to corrupt the stack or heap)?
> 
> The bottom line is that until a software product is sufficiently free of defects, it's not possible to implement and test new features unless the development group shortcuts good software development practices such as testing. In the long run, it's in everyone's interest that such shortcuts _not_ be taken.


I don't think you are incorrect in any fashion that software needs to be fairly bug free. I was merel stating that us talking about things we would like to see in the future product has nothing to do with any problems said product currently has. I get plenty annoyed with some of the issues the DVR has. I definately do not like the fact that I have to play cleanup on my DVR. This is just not the thread (definately is the correct forum) to discuss those things yet again.

Also as a developer I am quite sure you know that many features are added as other bugs are fixed in products. This product is no different then any other in the past. Yes I do think it was foolish to have released it so soon with as many problems but then again read the threads that where around before of all the people slamming D* because they didn't have their new product out. I guess you just can't please everyone. 

Wolf I am sorry if I came off a little strong I very much respect your opinion and all the info you have given on the product.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Things like this are the problem with the R15 and will continue to be addressed by forum members. If you and the other Mods wish to keep all threads on topic and remove any posts that are not on topic that's your decision. But keep it consistent. Don't take the approach of removing OT posts only if they bash the R15 while leaving OT posts such as what someone's favorite football team is.
> 
> *EDIT: If you would like to discuss this further we probably should take this to another thread.*


Do you see me removing any posts from here? I asked nicely to stop the bashing and thats all I did. I said we would deal with bashing IF it came to that. I don't want to I like that people can e fairly open here and not having to come down on them. I just want to not make EVERY thread a bash.


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## pentium101 (Nov 19, 2005)

Donnie Byrd said:


> This forum is "heavily monitored" by D*, and needs to be somewhat free of in tangled garbage that they must wade through in order to actually read legitimate posts concerning problems users are experiencing with their product. Constant bashing, threatening cancellations of service, lawsuits, or what have you, is doing nothing to ensure that the correct information is getting to the right people. Put yourselves in their shoes.............if every time you came to this forum to see how your product is progressing, you had to wade through many bashing and threatening posts, you'd most likely leave without getting the information you came for.


Donnie, here is a copy of a pm that I had sent Earl back in March,


> To make things easier for the Directv techs, you should make a thread titled "For Directv Techs - R15 Product Feedback", keep it closed and stickied at the top of the forums so the techs have one place to go and read about what problems need to be addressed.
> 
> You can keep it to a one post updated thread with subtitles of "Bugs that seem to be resolved", "Bugs that still need to be resolved", "User enhancements wanted".
> 
> ...


I'm not sure on the reason why you guys haven't done something like this yet. 

Think about this, would you want to have to read through 20+ threads in order to gain some feedback on a product, or would you rather just read through 1 thread that lays it out all for you in an organized fashion?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

pentium101 said:


> Donnie, here is a copy of a pm that I had sent Earl back in March, I'm not sure on the reason why you guys haven't done something like this yet.


1) We are not an "official" DirecTV Beta Tester Site (regardless what people may think), even though we do seem to play that role to a degree
2) We haven't identified the best way to maintain that particular type of post pattern, with a forum that is supposed to be more towardssupport/discussion

BTW: Thanks for teeing me up like that...


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## pentium101 (Nov 19, 2005)

Sorry Earl, it was just my mod half kicking in and I wasn't trying to step on anyone's toes. :nono: 

My response was towards Donnie's forum suggestion. Afterall, as you know that I did in fact mention that very same thing a few months ago.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) We are not an "official" DirecTV Beta Tester Site (regardless what people may think), even though we do seem to play that role to a degree
> 2) We haven't identified the best way to maintain that particular type of post pattern, with a forum that is supposed to be more towardssupport/discussion


Directed at DirecTV, Earl, not you:
1) They need one.
2) There is software out there better suited to this role than vBulletin (or forum software generally).

There are some really bright people here (many even apparently work in software) willing to find problems and reduce them to their simplest recreation scenario. Hell, I'd even consider buying an R15 to be in the beta.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

walters said:


> Directed at DirecTV, Earl, not you:
> 1) They need one.
> 2) There is software out there better suited to this role than vBulletin (or forum software generally).
> 
> There are some really bright people here (many even apparently work in software) willing to find problems and reduce them to their simplest recreation scenario. Hell, I'd even consider buying an R15 to be in the beta.


You talk like the R15 is in Beta. It hasn't been in beta since it was released publicly.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

jonaswan2 said:


> You talk like the R15 is in Beta. It hasn't been in beta since it was released publicly.


No, I talk like they're in need of a beta. There are quite a few issues that need to be fixed, and a lot of features they have plans to add. Those fixes and features need to be properly tested before being unleashed on the unsuspecting public (or at least they should be). Their idea of a beta, apparently, is to give it to a few DirecTV managers to use for awhile, and that just doesn't cut it.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Ok all I am closing this thread it has gone so far off track that it's impossible for us to get it back there. We can continue this discussion in another thread if everyone would like.


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