# Will the 921 ever work properly?



## bluegreg (May 10, 2004)

will there be OTA guide data, without having to subscribe to locals for $5?
will dish exchange for newer technology?
will all the annoying bugs be fixed, jittery video, aspect ratios, freeze ups?
wether a $500 or $1,000 investment I want results.
very unhappy dish customer.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

No.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Bite the bullet and switch to the HDTIVO. I have both and the 921 doesn't work because it was not designed well and is being fixed by people who just simply are not capable. The HDTIVO works, it has 3rd party support for hard drive expansion and the programming is more prolific on the D* service. 

I won't sell my 921 because I have a conscious. I refuse to sell this POS to anyone and have them be unhappy. I chose to buy it for $1000 and that is my mistake. All in all, I feel like I paid $2000 for the HDTIVO. And that was well worth it. NO, I only spent $1000 for the HDTIVO but the $1000 for the 921 was just a mistake on my part except for the few months when it worked pretty well, like between July and December last year. So to have PVR recording like I want has been realized by the HDTIVO and the 921 cost was just part of what I spent to arrive where I want to be.


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## invaliduser88 (Apr 23, 2002)

At this point, Dish may try to use the bugs in the 921 to try to push us to the 942. I don't plan on biting until there is a mpeg4 receiver available at a reasonable price.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

The mpeg4 issue is one that is not an immediate concern since it will be a few years away and by that time we'll all be ready for new hardware anyway. Only those who make a habit of keeping old stuff for years and years would be concerned now about mpeg4 compliant DVR. In the year 2008 or 2009 I'll consider what's happening on the mpeg4 front for E* and I'll be prepared to consider it then. Personally, my MPEG4 plans will happen here much sooner, most likely with VOOM, as their move is most likely to happen withion the next year as their current hardware is ready for the plugin upgrade. It could be handled like a card swap from D* or E* at this point in the game. With either E* or D*, the MPEG4 requirement won't be for quite a few years.


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## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

Don, I have to agree with you from this thread and the closed L221 thread.... 
1. Mark and all us still using the 921 are wasting our time if we think it will get better. The Eldon s/w lead guy on Tech. Talk. made me realize that E* has no plans to EVER make the 921 a reliable product... Thanks Mark for all your efforts but it is apparent that E* has written off the 921.
2. A friend of mine has the new HDTivo and it appears to work great, so I just got off the phone with D* and am trying to find a HDTivo and figure out how I can still get NY and LA network channels with D*. 
Thanks Don for making me realize that the 1k I spent and the continuing frustration that I have with the 921 are NO LONGER worth it.

t weaver


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## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

SimpleSimon said:


> No.


:icon_lol:

Short & to the point. :lol:


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

t weaver-

I won't pontificate on the competing DVR's. You can read what all have to say elsewhere. I only mentioned it as a reminder to those who just don't know and may believe that the 921 with all the problems is as good as it gets. 
I also think Simple Simon over simplified with the simple NO as I do believe some of the questions may have a partial yes answer, but who knows?, he probably is right, sadly so. I'm sure he has no evidence to support a no answer to some of those questions.

Anyway, I am catching hell from many who want to believe in the tooth fairy and think that I was slamming Mark for not doing a good job. Sheesh! I suppose some of you really do believe that. The fact is that Mark is not in charge of the beta program and is simply an Administrator of this volunteer effort to supply feedback to Eldon so they can fix the 921. And, this is not the ONLY place Eldon gets their feedback from 921 users, but is probably the place where most of the information can be collected quickly. BUT, the fact that Eldon failed over and over to use the information supplied by the efforts of all and coordinated by Mark has absolutely nothing to do with the job Mark did here in that (one way flow) information. I see the bigger picture in that if you send data in over and over and it does no good, then YES, Mark is wasting his time. So are we! My goal is not to work for E* or Eldon. I hope that was not Mark's goal either. My goal is to watch DBS programming with a PVR. I know some of you have a slightly different goal and that may be to watch E* programming on the 921. I can assure you I have no alegience to E*, Nor do I to TIVO or VOOM. and certainly not Comcast even though they represent 38% of my income around here. I don't have their PVR. When it comes to watching TV, I just want to enjoy a movie or program and watch it when I want to in the best quality I can have.


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## TowJumper (Sep 19, 2003)

DonL:

All reasonable expectations to be sure - I certainly share them. But at least thanks to Mark (and the users here) Dish knows what needs to be done with the 921. Now whether they care/get it done is an entirely different question.

Regards.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> t weaver-
> 
> I won't pontificate on the competing DVR's. You can read what all have to say elsewhere. I only mentioned it as a reminder to those who just don't know and may believe that the 921 with all the problems is as good as it gets.
> I also think Simple Simon over simplified with the simple NO as I do believe some of the questions may have a partial yes answer, but who knows?, he probably is right, sadly so. I'm sure he has no evidence to support a no answer to some of those questions.
> ...


Couple of points I want make here.

1) First and for most, The 921 has been a very rocky road in terms of stability, broken promised etc. These can be seen by just wondering through the forums. Out of this fact, a big need was born. I fully understand being frustrated with the 921.

2) Mark saw this need and took it upon himself to be the point man to try and help improve the quality of this unit. Jason has followed with taken on the 811. If you think it is all illusion then there is no need to post anymore positive or negative posts because in the end it does nothing based on your logic. I am not saying don't post because I feel there is value in every opinion and experience. I just don't agree however with your opinion. From what I have seen, contrary to your thinking it has been an illusion, progress has been made. L211 might have been a step back, but from what I have seen the feedback and conservation have been useful tools to Dish. From my perspective it an action to try and be part of the solution if one can be obtained.

3) Mark has spent a lot of time helping bridge the gap. If I recall right, the 921 was the first unit where release notes was passed through from Dish to the end users. This has lead to other release notes being passed through and eventually even ended up on other sites.  We know get 811 release notes through Jason and once again, I see these as positive steps.

So as to believing in the tooth fairy, I am not sure what that means. Maybe there is one or two in here that do, but it would be an minority. (I know it is a dig) The fact that you think that if our opinions differ from yours we must is interesting to say the least. I fully understand your frustration over the last release. I don't agree with your expectations for a timely fix, but I understand your point. I have the jitter issue that you speak off, I seem to get it more when leaving my 921 on over night. Even if I get the jitter video, a reboot corrects this issue. I guess what suprises me is the comment on rendering the 921 useless. Mine is by no means useless. Yes it is quirky and I am anxiously awaiting L212, but In my opinion it does not render it useless by any stretch of the imagination. Then again.. Maybe I do Believe.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

TowJumper said:


> DonL:
> 
> All reasonable expectations to be sure - I certainly share them. But at least thanks to Mark (and the users here) Dish knows what needs to be done with the 921. Now whether they care/get it done is an entirely different question.


Dish may know what needs to be done, but they don't seem to be able to actually do it. I was fairly pleased with the 921 until the last software update with the OTA guide data. Now we have zero second recordings and timer failures. Frankly, if you can't be confident that a PVR will reliably record something when you set a timer, what good is it? To me, being able to record something when I'm not able to view it live (ie time shifting) is the main feature of a PVR. And the 921 has failed miserably in this regard. If this isn't totally fixed with the next software update, having the 921 will become the equivalent of not having a 921 and I might as well switch to Voom (if it still exists at that time). If there weren't so many reports of reduced bandwidth artifacts with DirecTV's HD channels, I'd switch to DirecTV and get an HD Tivo right away.

Trying to get the 921 to work properly is like flogging a dead horse. It hasn't happened in over a year and will never happen. But Charlie gets richer and richer while not fixing the 921 and not adding new HD, so I guess everything is OK, at least it's fine for Charlie.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> Bite the bullet and switch to the HDTIVO. I have both and the 921 doesn't work because it was not designed well and is being fixed by people who just simply are not capable. The HDTIVO works, it has 3rd party support for hard drive expansion and the programming is more prolific on the D* service.


Don, unfortunately I keep on reading reports of problems with DirecTV's HD channels due to their overcompression. That's one thing that's stopping me from switching to DirecTV and an HD Tivo. Also, there's the MPEG4 issue. I know you say it's not coming for years. But we hear that there will be no more HD until MPEG4 and it's coming late this year. So what's the real story on MPEG4 and more HD?


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Ron- Let me explain what was meant by the "tooth fairy" and other derogatory remarks by me that relate to the issue at hand. Namely the false belief that this forum plays a crucial role in fixing the 921. The 921 is rendered useless to anyone who has the option to use a system that works right vs. one that has jittery picture. When the 921 worked prior to L211, I used it regularly but why use it now if it jitters and has some ZSR's. You obviously have no choice so you reboot and suffer with the work arounds.

First, the answer is that it hasn't proven to affect the speedy fix of the problems with the 921 at all. Sorry, but as much as I would like to report that we make or made a difference, there is just no evidence that has happened. Here is why I feel this way and before some of you go into your I love Mark routine please listen-
I compared the timeliness of previous major bug fixes done by E* on other hardware in the past as well as air and program issues. I have been through many of them over the past 6 years as a loyal E* subscriber working with insiders as well as telephone tech support. What I have seen is that the 921 has had a few major problems that have continued to resurface over the past year. They have not been fixed at all. We all know the common work arounds and recovery procedures by now but these are not fixes. By this forum, Mark has organized and regulated the posting of these work arounds so most of us can get some enjoyment out of the 921. Unfortunately, Mark has been censored by E* as to what he can report back to us. It is cvensorship by an NDA. Basically, the information flow is a one way street. Mark honors his NDA as it should be but after a year of many of us asking for postings of E* feedback, all we ever get is stuff like it will happen when the stars are in line or some such nonsense like that. What we do see is the efforts of our postings which has amounted to basically nothing since last summer. Contrast this to several issues I had with previous receivers like the 6000 and the 5000/HDTV modulator that got bug fixes in 2-3 weeks at the longest and in the case of problems with the 5000/HDmod, when Discovery HD hit the air that receiver was tweaked and fixed to receive the channel within days! What they did give us since September- I'm sorry but I see no advantage to having OTA guide info if I have to pay extra to get it and then only to watch a channel that jitters and shakes so much that it is just ridiculous to watch. Compare that to the 6000 that had a few problems and were fixed after reporting, not via a formal forum here but directly to the E* engineers who took the notes and after a few weeks had a software upgrade to fix them. I'm talking about similar serious issues such as the jitters are on the 921 or ZSR's, not a minor one such as caller ID not working. I will give Eldon one credit and that is they got the PSIP working to FCC specs early on, of course now, since they were way ahead of most of the TV stations switch over which was not FCC required until February 2005 some of us lost our OTA channels with that software upgrade on stations who hadn't made the upgrade yet. Eldon- good job on the software for PSIP but your timing was about 6 months too early! The funny thing was, about this PSIP issue with Eldon, is that once again the info was a one way street and if Mark knew what was happening he wasn't saying. I bypassed the forum route and went direct and had no trouble getting the straight story from E* as to the problem with PSIP and stations who had not yet come on line. I posted my results here and because there was zero communications to this so called support forum, my info was considered heresay. Hey, I would not expect any different as why should you believe me? Of course the fact that I got results with close testing with two local TV stations and had inside info not protected by NDA from E* didn't matter. My reports were Not Official. Later, I think Mark was permitted to divulge the real reason why many lost locals for about a month. The only issue here that I'm complaining about was that 1. Eldon fixed the PSIP as required rather than optional at a time when many stations across the nation were still in transition and 2. that they did not communicate the real problem, nor did they relase Mark to tell us except in his cryptic way that flew over most here. Essentially he referenced one of my posts! 
So the question remains? Is this forum crucial to Eldon fixing the 921? If yes, then when will we see real progress? We've been reporting the samy problems for a year now. If no, then why not E* just do as I suggested and put the 921 fix back in the hands of the US based engineers under the same test programs as the other receivers? 
I think the writing is clear on that last question- The 921 is not going to be ever fixed. Some day, as I was told by an E* rep at CES, 921 owners will be given an opportunity to upgrade to the 942 for a price. That, is what I think will be the ultimate final chapter for the 921.

Jerry- OT- but in brief, I have all the services and can say that all three have issues with overcompression from time to time, D* shifts the "problem" from channel to channel giving best image (low compression) to different channels based on programming choice. V* has obvious pixelation on fast motion on most of their channels but their image quality for low motion HD is superior to D* and V* on the average. I don't know all the nuances of what is done to create best quality for motion vs. sharpness and low noise but it seems fast motion is quite good on E* while the picture is softer and with D*, as I said overcompression jumps around from HD channel to HD channel throughout the day. There is no clear winner when it comes to one having all channels superior to the other two. Of course V* has so many more channels with nothing to compare to on D* and E* and I'm not just talking about their Voom exclusives either. As for MP4, the new channels will be out earlier in MP4 but the existing ones we now have won't be switched to ONLY MP4 for years, meaning you will not have a dead 921 for years like we experienced with the 5000/HDTV modulator that lost all QPSK HD channels quickly. Both D* and E* are saying the same thing about this. -- Sorry for answering the OT here.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> Jerry- OT- but in brief, I have all the services and can say that all three have issues with overcompression from time to time, D* shifts the "problem" from channel to channel giving best image (low compression) to different channels based on programming choice. V* has obvious pixelation on fast motion on most of their channels but their image quality for low motion HD is superior to D* and V* on the average. I don't know all the nuances of what is done to create best quality for motion vs. sharpness and low noise but it seems fast motion is quite good on E* while the picture is softer and with D*, as I said overcompression jumps around from HD channel to HD channel throughout the day. There is no clear winner when it comes to one having all channels superior to the other two. Of course V* has so many more channels with nothing to compare to on D* and E* and I'm not just talking about their Voom exclusives either. As for MP4, the new channels will be out earlier in MP4 but the existing ones we now have won't be switched to ONLY MP4 for years, meaning you will not have a dead 921 for years like we experienced with the 5000/HDTV modulator that lost all QPSK HD channels quickly. Both D* and E* are saying the same thing about this. -- Sorry for answering the OT here.


Don, what you say about MPEG4 is true. However, the reality is that most of us will want any new channels that come up, so new hardware will be a requirement. That does make it tough to invest in an HD Tivo now knowing that new hardware may be required this year. That being said, I'm so disgusted with the latest major bugs in the 921, that if they aren't fixed in the next software release, I'm done with Dish and will just bite the bullet and switch to DirecTV and get an HD Tivo now.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Don, Thanks for the well thought out reply. I can feel your frustration. I do have an option in terms of moving back to my 721, but I have choosen not to. With the jitter issues that I saw on Day one of my 921, I contemplated making that move and decided not to. Since I run into the jitters more than most, I have contemplated a few times going back to the 721. So I do have a choice, I weighed the pluses and minuses and decided to stick with the 921 upstairs. Lot to digest in your reply... 

As to the "tooth fairy" comment, it was not directed to the issue but to the people with differing opinions as yourself. People that believe that the support forums have made a difference over the life of the 921. You might be right in your view, I am sure the group would be very interested in seeing your data on timelines.. I was a 6000 user for a while before I jumped to the 811 and I don't recall those quick fixes that you mentioned, but they might have been done before I was a 6000 user. The 6000 still has the "acquiring signal bug". From what I have read, people were generally pleased with the previous relase and L211 is a step back. This is why I jumped into the 921 pool to begin with. People thought the previous release was pretty good. Based on your reply, you were not one of them. 

So are you comparing just L211 to a year back or L211 to the last release? To get a full picture of where the 921 has gone to try and get a feel for if this forum has provided any significant help I would expect one would have to go back to when this avenue was formed and see how far the product has come. Personally without knowing E*'s side of the equation, I can't make the assertion that this forum has or has not played a crucial role. You have ever right to make this assertion and over time it may or may not be proved right. 

As to the Dish fixing the issues with the 921 on L211, My guess is that they will. Does this mean that the 921 will eventually be rock solid. Not sure, but my guess is that it will reach some form of stability. I do hope for the people that put their trust in Dish and purchased a 921 will be eventually taken care of. It has been a long road and my opinion is that the forums on this board have made a difference in regards to the 921. 

I have read your posts in the past and I have found them very insightful as I do with this one. You are calling it as you see it and nothing wrong with that. Well my take on this is that E* has two paths. One is to get the 921 to stable point where the user can use it reliably and it does not require turning the unit off ever night to reboot or two offer up a very reasonable migration path to the 942.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Well my take on this is that E* has two paths. One is to get the 921 to stable point where the user can use it reliably and it does not require turning the unit off ever night to reboot or two offer up a very reasonable migration path to the 942.


Ron, was the 921 tested before it's release? Is the 942 being tested to ensure that it works properly before release?

Here is what I think are reasonable alternatives that E* should consider to ensure customer satisfaction which will help build confidence in an ethical way: 
1. Set a deadline within three months for getting the 921 to work properly or recall all of them and scrap the 921's totally.
2. If 1. above fails, swap out the 921's for 942's.
3. at customers option, return the 921 for a full refund for the original purchase price.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

boylehome said:


> Ron, was the 921 tested before it's release? Is the 942 being tested to ensure that it works properly before release?
> 
> Here is what I think are reasonable alternatives that E* should consider to ensure customer satisfaction which will help build confidence in an ethical way:
> 1. Set a deadline within three months for getting the 921 to work properly or recall all of them and scrap the 921's totally.
> ...


942 has had the same fine testing that the 921 had before its release. Wait a year before considering buying.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Ron-
just a suggestion regarding forum use- You don't really need to quote a huge post like I put up when it appears on the same page just two up. The post with no quote is located at the lower left of the columns, or just type in the quick reply as I usually do. Reply with quote is good for when the post you are replying to happens to be a few pages back in the thread. 

FYI- L187 and L188 were good releases that did not cause me to curtail my use of the 921 because the video was unwatchable. Only L211 was the problem and all this time they let pass since the major culprits were said to be fixed. They could have fixed the jittery pictures to L188 days with an emergency update the 3rd week of January. 

boylehome- I'll take option 3 without hesitation!


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

boylehome said:


> Ron, was the 921 tested before it's release? Is the 942 being tested to ensure that it works properly before release?
> 
> Here is what I think are reasonable alternatives that E* should consider to ensure customer satisfaction which will help build confidence in an ethical way:
> 1. Set a deadline within three months for getting the 921 to work properly or recall all of them and scrap the 921's totally.
> ...


Dont work for Dish so I don't know what level of testing the 942 is receiving. I am not sure if anyone really knows. As to the 921 being tested before the release. I can assure you it did. What level of testing occurred, I am not a Dish employee. I do however now what level of testing our embedded product is getting. 

Intersting options.. So option 3 allows the customer a full refund. Wonder what the customer would do then?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> Ron-
> just a suggestion regarding forum use- You don't really need to quote a huge post like I put up when it appears on the same page just two up. The post with no quote is located at the lower left of the columns, or just type in the quick reply as I usually do. Reply with quote is good for when the post you are replying to happens to be a few pages back in the thread.
> 
> FYI- L187 and L188 were good releases that did not cause me to curtail my use of the 921 because the video was unwatchable. Only L211 was the problem and all this time they let pass since the major culprits were said to be fixed. They could have fixed the jittery pictures to L188 days with an emergency update the 3rd week of January.
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion.. Rushed response during lunch.. Was actually going to trim your reply to give some context. Thanks for the tip. Usually a judgement call with me and definitely oops there. Fixed it.

Yes they could have.. but cherry picking fixes has it owns set of problems.


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## Curmudgeon (Jul 15, 2004)

As a recent $500 buyer, all I can say is I'm happy as a clam.
No jitters
No zero second recordings
No format issues.
My caller id has always worked
My closed captioning has always worked
Do I wish it had program title programming...yes. But I also wish I could shower with Catherine Zeta Jones. I don't lose sleep over either one not coming true. Finally, on a 64" HD display there is NO doubt about Directv HD being obviously inferior.
Sorry some people haven't been as fortunate, but the unhappiness with Dish ain't universal.


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## tm22721 (Nov 8, 2002)

I have had my 921 for 14 months it was one of the first shipped by Dish Depot.

I think that it has served its purpose (I do not have locals) although I have suffered the same freezing and timer issues as everybody else. The most recent freeze necessitated a reboot just last night. Without this forum I would not have been able to know how to fix the timer issues.

In essence I wanted a 921 for the bigger hard drive and the novelty of recording HD although there is just not enough HD out there yet for me. In retrospect another 721 would have been sufficient but I got enough money for my 6000 to justify buying the 921.

I am a software engineer so I understand the complexity and design issues. What is inexcusable is that E* thinks that it is OK to have their customers be part of the validation process. We are tired of that and have learned in our profession that it is a sign of immaturity. 

E* is headed by a marketing guru, not an engineer and their commercial success has hidden the failures of their DVR receivers from the general public. Their reputation is intact despite the agonies of those on this forum.


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