# Sun interference message



## gilviv (Sep 18, 2007)

For 2 days now, between 3:30 to 3:45PM EST I've seen this full screen message pop up about "Sun interference". It usually lasts about 2-3 minutes, I don't recall ever seeing anything like this before from D* in the 6 years with them. The message also says "this is a Fall , Spring" thing. What gives?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

The sun is behind the SAT you're tuned to at that moment.

I've seen this before and it's been around for years.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Yea, Directv puts out enough power to overcome the sun noise when the sun is behind the DirecTv satellites, but a few of DirecTvs feeds come from C band satellites on transponders without enough power to overcome the interference, so they put that slide up for the two or three minutes the satellite is being interfered with at their receive site in Colorado. Lasts about 3 or 4 days every spring and fall. The sun right now is tracking the satellite belt almost perfectly. Good time to check if you have line of site if you are planning on putting up a dish.

http://www.prss.org/tech_support-solar_outage-spring.html


----------



## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

veryoldschool said:


> The sun is behind the SAT you're tuned to at that moment.
> 
> I've seen this before and it's been around for years.


Actually, it might be the c band satellite the original feed is taken from, not necessarily the Directv satellite.


----------



## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Only a few more days of it left.


----------



## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

gilviv said:


> For 2 days now, between 3:30 to 3:45PM EST I've seen this full screen message pop up about "Sun interference". It usually lasts about 2-3 minutes, I don't recall ever seeing anything like this before from D* in the 6 years with them. The message also says "this is a Fall , Spring" thing. What gives?


The sun passes directly behind the geo-stationary DBS satellites twice a year - mid-March to early April and late September to mid-October, depending on your latitude. When the sun is behind the satellite it can swamp the signal, causing a temporary loss of signal.

As VOS says, this has been happening every spring and fall for as long as there have been geo-stationary satellites. Since it is short lived, and the sun has to pass directly behind the satellite in question, most people don't notice it.


----------



## inf0z (Oct 16, 2011)

Edit - never mind, some one already posted the dates.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> Yea, Directv puts out enough power to overcome the sun noise when the sun is behind the DirecTv satellites, but a few of DirecTvs feeds come from C band satellites on transponders without enough power to overcome the interference, so they put that slide up for the two or three minutes the satellite is being interfered with at their receive site in Colorado. Lasts about 3 or 4 days every spring and fall. The sun right now is tracking the satellite belt almost perfectly. Good time to check if you have line of site if you are planning on putting up a dish.
> 
> http://www.prss.org/tech_support-solar_outage-spring.html





studechip said:


> Actually, it might be the c band satellite the original feed is taken from, not necessarily the Directv satellite.


Interesting link, but the times don't match, but suggest it was one of the 99/101/103 SATs, and I REALLY DOUBT DirecTV outputs enough power to overcome the noise of the sun. If they did rainfade would be almost a non issues.

For those that want to play: http://gjullien.fr/satellite.htm


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Ive never had a sun outage on Directv itself. If so, he wouldnt have a DirecTv slide on the screen, he would have a 771 error message  Those times are for the satellite that company is using...He would have to use the calculator. Since he knows the time, and his location, he could check the time vs the satellite out at that time at his location to verify, but Id bet the time it was out matches the time the solar outage hit Castle Rock for that stations satellite he was watching.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> Ive never had a sun outage on Directv itself. If so, he wouldnt have a DirecTv slide on the screen, he would have a 771 error message  Those times are for the satellite that company is using...He would have to use the calculator. Since he knows the time, and his location, he could check the time vs the satellite out at that time at his location to verify, but Id bet the time it was out matches the time the solar outage hit Castle Rock for that stations satellite he was watching.


You might be right. When I've seen the message, being on the west coast, it was in the late morning.
If it's Castle Rock, they need to be looking at a SAT around 123 degrees.


----------



## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

I remember seeing this problem only once in a sports bar in Denver in 1997 (I think that was the year) watching a Steelers game. The bar lost the signal for a good part of a drive. There was no message on the screen, but the bartender called and was told that was what was going on.


----------



## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

The message is being shown on-screen. If the message is caused by the user's inability to receive the D* signal, then the user could not receive the notice. Therefore I suspect the message refers to D*'s inability to receive the signal at the uplink center.

I guess it might be possible that the notice is already present in the STB which is smart enough to display it when the receiver experiences a sun block, but I doubt it.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

makaiguy said:


> The message is being shown on-screen. If the message is caused by the user's inability to receive the D* signal, then the user could not receive the notice. Therefore I suspect the message refers to D*'s inability to receive the signal at the uplink center.
> 
> I guess it might be possible that the notice is already present in the STB which is smart enough to display it when the receiver experiences a sun block, but I doubt it.


Let me first say "I don't know", but if it is the sun behind the DirecTV SAT, what the receiver would see is a good CNR that slowly fades and then increases again, within a few mins [4 mins/degree].
I'm not sure if the receiver is "smart enough" to realize this and trigger the message because of the date.

Given that DirecTV has Castle Rock & El Segundo, one might think they'd switch to get around this.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

makaiguy said:


> I guess it might be possible that the notice is already present in the STB which is smart enough to display it when the receiver experiences a sun block, but I doubt it.


Even if it was, it would have to calculate the time the outage would occur, based on the zip code entered in the receiver, and what satellite the receiver was tuned to, so it would know when to display the message, since the outage occurs at a different time in every zip code.

While possible, I highly doubt DirecTv would put that much code into a receiver...and since mine plays fine right through the outage (the signal strength meter drops from 95s to about 60's during the suns passage on the KA sats), I doubt its an issue.

It mainly affects C band, where dish gains are much lower. Even on my KU band 6' dish, the outage rarely affects the stronger signals like PBS. It does affect some of the weaker ones tho, but it knocks out ALL the C band transponders on each satellite in progression. I use it every year on my C band dish to make sure the boresight it aligned correctly, and the polar mount is aligned right.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> Even if it was, it would have to calculate the time the outage would occur...


While I still "don't know" :lol:
I think you're making it harder than it has to be.
It lasts what? A week in the spring & fall?
If the receiver gets a message during this time from the guide data, and "IF" [big] it can sense the drop of the CNR, it might not be that hard. :shrug:


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> While I still "don't know" :lol:
> I think you're making it harder than it has to be.
> It lasts what? A week in the spring & fall?
> If the receiver gets a message during this time from the guide data, and "IF" [big] it can sense the drop of the CNR, it might not be that hard. :shrug:


True, that would work. To find out if it is true, just watch or record a channel on 99W at:
Start 03/06/2013 12:29:39	
End 03/06/2013 12:43:54	
Peak 03/06/2013 12:36:47

03/07/2013 12:29:38
03/07/2013 12:43:26
03/07/2013 12:36:32

tomorrow, and see if you lose signal  Times are for Los Angeles.

http://www.satellite-calculations.com/Satellite/suninterference.php


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> True, that would work. To find out if it is true, just watch or record a channel on 99W at:
> Start 03/06/2013 12:29:39
> End 03/06/2013 12:43:54
> Peak 03/06/2013 12:36:47
> ...


Your times look to be 2 hours off from the west coast.

It looks like my local NBC [off 103] will be:
03/07/2013 10:45:35
03/07/2013 10:57:57
03/07/2013 10:51:46

I know I didn't see any problems watching live TV this morning.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

That is strange. I plugged in LA,CA for the location, and 99W for the satellite, and thats what it popped out. I usually go by UTC when I do it, because these calculators and daylight savings time which goes into effect this weekend sometimes screw it up.

In any case, its fun to watch the signal drop for 5 minutes, then recover. It was REALLY fun when watching analog C band. Sparkles increased until the entire station was unwatchable, then slowly recovered. Digital it just works until it drops.

These are the UTC times from Intelsats site for LA: 
07-Mar-2013 18:31 9 minutes
08-Mar-2013 18:32 7 minutes

http://www.intelsat.com/webapps/SunInterference/PublicSunInterference.aspx

Current UTC time can be heard live at (303) 499-7111. Here, local time is UTC minus 6.


----------



## onan38 (Jul 17, 2008)

I saw that message on Tvland Monday afternoon.lasted around 3 min.1st time i have seen that message.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> That is strange.


 UTC-8 for here.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> UTC-8 for here.


Yea, that javascript was using my computer clock settings to calculate the time, not the location I entered, hence the 2 hour difference, sorry.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> Yea, that javascript was using my computer clock settings to calculate the time, not the location I entered, hence the 2 hour difference, sorry.


I was fighting the same thing here. :lol:

FWIW I've been watching my local NBC during the times that 103 "should be" having this problem this week and haven't seen the message. :shrug:


----------



## cwtech (Oct 12, 2012)

http://www.satellite-calculations.com/

here is another site were you can get information on this,, they have a link there called sun calculator and also more information on how/what takes effect


----------



## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Yep. See the link in my signature below. It's a very useful time to determine optimal dish locations.


----------



## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

Happened to me on HLN while enjoying the Jodi Arias trial.


----------



## RBTO (Apr 11, 2009)

The sun outage can happen anywhere in DTS system including its providers, since all use geosynchronous satellites located in the Clarke belt. The outage-predictor site won't help predict those because no one (outside of DTV) knows what links are susceptible at any given time. That site does, however, allow individuals to determine when_ their own _receiver is _prone_ to a sun outage. It's a great way to see if your dish is shadowed since the sun's location will be very close to that of the satellite if the data you provide is correct.

Someone mentioned something about power and rain-fade. That's kind of apples and oranges for rain fade and a sun outage. Rain fade is due to the _lack_ of signal. Sun outages are caused by the background radiation (in this case, microwave) blinding the receiver to the satellite's relatively lower power. Raising the satellite power could overcome a sun outage, but the amount the power would need to be raised is considerably more than that to prevent rain fade. The sun is a powerful transmitter at a whole lot of frequencies. If you look at a satellite signal with rain fade, the signal drops toward the noise floor. With a sun-outage, the noise floor comes up, past the satellite signal and swallows it.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RBTO said:


> Someone mentioned something about power and rain-fade. That's kind of apples and oranges for rain fade and a sun outage. Rain fade is due to the _lack_ of signal. Sun outages are caused by the background radiation (in this case, microwave) blinding the receiver to the satellite's relatively lower power. Raising the satellite power could overcome a sun outage, but the amount the power would need to be raised is considerably more than that to prevent rain fade. The sun is a powerful transmitter at a whole lot of frequencies. *If you look at a satellite signal with rain fade, the signal drops to the noise floor. With a sun-outage, the noise floor comes up, past the satellite signal and swallows it.*


I think I was the "someone", and while you may think apples and oranges, they both come out of the same CNR basket.


----------



## RBTO (Apr 11, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> I think I was the "someone", and while you may think apples and oranges, they both come out of the same CNR basket.


Sorry if I offended!
I was referring to cause and effect. You're quite correct. They're both signal-to-noise issues, but one is due to a loss of signal and the other is due to something overpowering the signal. Just saying.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RBTO said:


> Sorry if I offended!
> I was referring to cause and effect. You're quite correct. They're both signal-to-noise issues, but one is due to a loss of signal and the other is due to something overpowering the signal. Just saying.


Wasn't offended.
I was thinking about saying what you had earlier.

Rainfade is a drop in signal, while "sun fade" is a rise of the noise power.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

RBTO said:


> Sorry if I offended!
> .


I dont think he was offended. You would know it if he was Im sure. You made a valid point about signal loss vs noise increase. Since the meters read data bit errors I believe, both would affect the meter readings the same.

It is useful, if you know the receiver site (Castle Rock, Co) and the satellite the feed comes from (lyngsat has most of them), then you can calculate the time a channel (headline news for example) will drop out at the DirecTv receive site, and see if it coincides with the time the slide is onscreen.


----------



## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

If the problem was due to the C band (?) uplink/downlink of the signal, wouldn't it happen multiple times? That one signal is bounced 4 times before it get's to your receiver. And the times would be staggered throughout the day, as the signals originate from different satellites.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

alnielsen said:


> If the problem was due to the C band (?) uplink/downlink of the signal, wouldn't it happen multiple times?


It does. I have seen the slide on DirecTv (and Comcast), and its only for channels on one satellite, other channels are fine. Since most cable channels are co-located on three or four satellites, all in a rather close span of sky, it might appear to occur all at once, but never are all the DirecTv or Comcast channels out at the same time.


----------



## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Davenlr said:


> I dont think he was offended. You would know it if he was Im sure. You made a valid point about signal loss vs noise increase. Since the meters read data bit errors I believe, both would affect the meter readings the same.
> 
> It is useful, if you know the receiver site *(Castle Rock, Co)* and the satellite the feed comes from (lyngsat has most of them), then you can calculate the time a channel (headline news for example) will drop out at the DirecTv receive site, and see if it coincides with the time the slide is onscreen.


Since you've made reference to "Castle Rock" a number of times in this thread, just to note I think that's now behind the times . AIUI, the primary station today for reception and uplinking of all national or CONUS programming for DIRECTV USA is the LA Broadcast Center (LABC) here in Marina Del Ray, CA. as "Uplink #1." with CR serving as the backup as "Uplink #2" should the LABC ever be disabled (major earthquake or what have you).

However CR is the primary hub for collection and distribution of the majority of LiL programming I understand.


----------



## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

I wonder as we approach the peak of sunspot activity whether the sun outages will be a little longer over the next few years than they have been since about 2004? Still, the outages are in single digit minutes for a few days in the spring and a few days in the fall, but from about 2004 through 2011 we were on the bottom half of the sunspot activity curve, The next peak will be in 2014, but it will be about 2017 before the activity goes back to being as low as it was between 2004 and 2011. I am not an expert, but I would guess is the outages might occur on two or three more days in the spring and fall and last two or three minutes longer on the days on which they occur in 2014 and 2015.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Since you've made reference to "Castle Rock" a number of times in this thread, just to note I think that's now behind the times . AIUI, the primary station today for reception and uplinking of all national or CONUS programming for DIRECTV USA is the LA Broadcast Center (LABC) here in Marina Del Ray, CA. as "Uplink #1." with CR serving as the backup as "Uplink #2" should the LABC ever be disabled (major earthquake or what have you).
> 
> However CR is the primary hub for collection and distribution of the majority of LiL programming I understand.


OK. I wasnt aware they had switched over to LA. Appreciate the info.


----------



## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

FWIW - got the message yesterday at the beginning of the 1:00 PM (EST) Larry Sanders showing on Reelz. It started with a "No signal" or similar wording in blue at the top of the screen on a dark background, with no error number. It was NOT the normal white error message with error number one sees at the bottom of the screen when a sat signal is not found by the STB. It was followed within a few seconds by the full sun blockage explanation screen in English and Spanish. Lasted about 3 minutes. 

Those so inclined can figure out what was being sunblocked then. I am located in Aiken SC.


----------

