# The February 2010 Create Unhappy Customers Program



## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

This is not a particularly good month for many current Dish customers. 

First, customers with a number of receivers get clobbered with a rate restructuring which Dish appears to be mitigating with some short term credits. Then, customers who have been getting their HD for several years from dishes configured for 110°/119°/61.5° suddenly find themselves unable to get the new HD channels with that configuration. And for a fee, Dish will fairly promptly install a new 1000.4 (or a rearranged two dish combination) for those who have LOS to the Eastern Arc.

I can't help but wonder. Was this some sort of "rip the bandage off quickly" plan or a case where the left hand (rate folks) didn't know what the right hand (new HD folks) was doing?

I'd really hate to be a current customer with a large number of receivers getting HD off of 110°/119°/61.5°. I'd be really irked.


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## 4HiMarks (Jan 21, 2004)

phrelin said:


> I'd really hate to be a current customer with a large number of receivers getting HD off of 110°/119°/61.5°. I'd be really irked.


That describes me to a T, except you can also add "out of work" to the list. I am weighing my options, and as good as the Dish DVRs are, I'm not sure if I can justify the (new) cost.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

phrelin said:


> I'd really hate to be a current customer with a large number of receivers getting HD off of 110°/119°/61.5°. I'd be really irked.


Yep, that describes me, as well. 

In my case, my locals are split among all three of those birds. So to get the new HD, I think I have to pay for a third dish? Is that for real? (Any two dish setup I can think of would involve LOS issues or need 5 orbital slots, and I think the receiver can only handle 4 slots?)


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Not saying I don't feel for everyone on the 61.5 front... but there's another way to look at this.

Since Dish couldn't put all the new HD on 61.5... the only other choice would have been to wait and not add those channels for anyone until they could add them for everyone... in which case you'd still be paying the same price to not have those channels.

So I'm not sure what the problem here is... except that I feel they should make the dish upgrades for people for free or at a VERY reduced rate to keep customers happy.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

ShapeShifter said:


> Yep, that describes me, as well.
> 
> In my case, my locals are split among all three of those birds. So to get the new HD, I think I have to pay for a third dish? Is that for real? (Any two dish setup I can think of would involve LOS issues or need 5 orbital slots, and I think the receiver can only handle 4 slots?)


Your Buffalo locals are on 3 birds?

I'm seeing Buffalo HD locals on 61.5 and SD's on 110.

Scratch that, I found the one Buffalo ion station on 119. But that lists as WPXC which is out of...Jax, FL and Georgia? That's awfully confusing. What's up with that?


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

RasputinAXP said:


> Scratch that, I found the one Buffalo ion station on 119. But that lists as WPXC which is out of...Jax, FL and Georgia? That's awfully confusing. What's up with that?


Looks like the list is wrong. WPXC is indeed out of Jax FL, the local Buffalo version is WPXJ.

I don't really care so much about that station. But I hear the E* won't condone a dish configuration that doesn't get all subscribed channels? So I guess that would make a 1000.4 with a 110 wing dish not a real solution for me. I guess I can see their point, If they were to set up that dish configuration for me, what's to stop me from complaining next month that I can't get that channel on 119?

It just seems like one of those situations where I can't win.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

ShapeShifter said:


> Looks like the list is wrong. WPXC is indeed out of Jax FL, the local Buffalo version is WPXJ.
> 
> I don't really care so much about that station. But I hear the E* won't condone a dish configuration that doesn't get all subscribed channels? So I guess that would make a 1000.4 with a 110 wing dish not a real solution for me. I guess I can see their point, If they were to set up that dish configuration for me, what's to stop me from complaining next month that I can't get that channel on 119?
> 
> It just seems like one of those situations where I can't win.


Actually, if you already get 110°/119° off a single 500 dish, I don't see why you can't _*add*_ a 1000.4 for the EA with some switch. There might be some problems with duplicate channels, but it seems like it ought to be doable. But I don't know enough about these things. Maybe someone could explain if it wouldn't work.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Stewart Vernon said:


> ...
> 
> So I'm not sure what the problem here is...


Well, one problem is that I'm paying for a package using gear determined by Dish to be required and I cannot receive all of the channels in the package.

To boot, they have not notified me of the availability of those new channels.

I am not a Dish basher, indeed I'm a happy customer, but one thing for absolute certain is that I expect that Dish will provide the needed equipment at no additional cost to me. If that fails to come about, I'll be waiting for the end of my current commitment so as to jump to Fios.

No ill will to Dish, but I'm only so flexible in determining what *I* believe is fair and equitable.

We'll see what happens.... I'm on hold with my 61.5 dish under three feet of snow.:lol:


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## 4HiMarks (Jan 21, 2004)

phrelin said:


> Actually, if you already get 110°/119° off a single 500 dish, I don't see why you can't _*add*_ a 1000.4 for the EA with some switch. There might be some problems with duplicate channels, but it seems like it ought to be doable. But I don't know enough about these things. Maybe someone could explain if it wouldn't work.


Seems to me that a Dish 500 pointed at 61.5 ought to be able to just be replaced with a 1000.4 and re-aimed slightly to get the other two birds. Then the 110/119 dish might not even be necessary. I have a better LOS to that part of the sky anyway.

My questions are:

1) What programming package are the new channels part of?
2) I still have the old DHP tied to my 501. I'm pretty sure that includes a free service call if there is any problem. I know I got my 61.5 dish installed free when the "must carry" provision was re-interpreted to include *all* locals. I would think "not able to get all the channels I'm paying for" would be a problem requiring a service call. So if the new channels are in my package, why should I have to pay for installation of a new dish?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I'd urge considering this post from another thread if you can't get Dish to handle the problem in a reasonable manner through the normal contact points:


phrelin said:


> MadScientist said:
> 
> 
> > I just wanted to give an up-date to my issue with Dish Network with these new channels.
> ...


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

phrelin said:


> Actually, if you already get 110°/119° off a single 500 dish, I don't see why you can't _*add*_ a 1000.4 for the EA with some switch. There might be some problems with duplicate channels, but it seems like it ought to be doable. But I don't know enough about these things. Maybe someone could explain if it wouldn't work.


I considered that, but that would result in 5 orbital positions. (110/119 + 61.5/72.7/77) Doesn't the receiver have a limit of 4 positions? At least that's all the space there is in the Check Switch results display.

But I wonder if there is another issue. Earlier today I went out to the motorhome, where it's a simple matter of pushing a few buttons on the rooftop dome controller to choose the satellite. So I pointed it to 129, did a check switch, and while it was a low signal strength, I was getting a good picture. So I tried to get BBCA HD (ch 9450) and got nothing -- it shows up red in the program guide. So what's up with that? Do they know I'm not supposed to be seeing that channel with my regular dish setup?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

ShapeShifter said:


> I considered that, but that would result in 5 orbital positions. (110/119 + 61.5/72.7/77) Doesn't the receiver have a limit of 4 positions? At least that's all the space there is in the Check Switch results display.
> 
> But I wonder if there is another issue. Earlier today I went out to the motorhome, where it's a simple matter of pushing a few buttons on the rooftop dome controller to choose the satellite. So I pointed it to 129, did a check switch, and while it was a low signal strength, I was getting a good picture. So I tried to get BBCA HD (ch 9450) and got nothing -- it shows up red in the program guide. So what's up with that? Do they know I'm not supposed to be seeing that channel with my regular dish setup?


I would call up like Puck said and get a rehit, to see if that fix's your motorhome Dvr.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

ShapeShifter said:


> I considered that, but that would result in 5 orbital positions. (110/119 + 61.5/72.7/77) Doesn't the receiver have a limit of 4 positions? At least that's all the space there is in the Check Switch results display.


Sorry, I really wasn't thinking of you using 119, unless you really want that one channel. If I were you, I'd ask Dish to solve your problem.

Incidentally, where's your motorhome? Apparently it has LOS to 129? A 500 on 110/119 and a (large?) wing dish on 129? Or is the motorhome somewhere completely off the property?


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

What surprises me is that more than a year ago Dish acknowledged problems with 129 for Chicago locals accounts and mirrored those channels on 61.5. I can get both satellites with my installation but usually the locals initially try 129 and then switch to 61.5 because the 129 signal is so poor. 

Now knowing of this problem, why wouldn't Dish put the new HD channels on both 129 and 61.5? Makes no sense at all. If you have only 61.5 for HD, start bombarding the CEO's office with requests for free hardware upgrades. This sounds like some middle level manager made a decision to save some money at the expense of customers. Make sure top management knows what's going on.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

phrelin said:


> Incidentally, where's your motorhome? Apparently it has LOS to 129? A 500 on 110/119 and a (large?) wing dish on 129? Or is the motorhome somewhere completely off the property?


It's in my driveway at home.

Normally, I use a portable DPP 500 for 110/119 so I can drive both tuners of the DVR with a single cable, and not have to worry about switching satellites. I don't get HD that way, but usually only the wife watches live and she can't tell the difference. I normally watch recordings I moved from the DVRs in the house, and those are in HD.

I also have a rooftop dome, that can be aimed at different satellites. It's supposed to automatically switch satellites as I change channels, but that has always given me trouble. Also, there is only a single coax run, and a legacy LNB, so I'm not able to use a DPP separator, and can therefore only drive one of the tuners. So, I normally don't use the dome. About the only time I use it is if we're making a quick overnight stop and it's not worth setting up the portable dish, or when in the driveway for an extended time. In those cases, I just manually select which satellite I want using the dome control panel. When in the driveway, I just keep in on 119, just to keep it alive when parked for extended periods, so I don't have to worry about re-authorizing it when I want to use it again.

As for getting 129 with the dome, I can pick it up, but it's a weak signal. And the dome takes a long time to lock on, probably because it's so close to the horizon. From my driveway, to the South, I have a few scattered trees, some farm fields, and the solid tree line varies from about 1000 to 2000 feet away. So I pretty much have a clear view of about 98% of the Southern sky from where it's normally parked. Interestingly, the one tree by the side of the driveway is in exactly the wrong spot, so I can't get 61.5 with the dome while parked in the driveway. Even with no leaves, the tree trunk is blocking the signal.

It's doubly interesting that I can get 129 with the dome, since the reflector in the dome is significantly smaller than a regular dish. It's roughly the equivalent of an 18" dish that's been cut in half.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

BillJ said:


> Now knowing of this problem, why wouldn't Dish put the new HD channels on both 129 and 61.5? Makes no sense at all.


I see people keep re-asking this question, which has been answered a couple of times...

Because of some problems at the 61.5 location, Dish apparently doesn't have the bandwidth to add all the HD at the 61.5 location as they have done in the past.

So.. whether or not they ultimately want people on the east/west arcs... Right now it is more of a technical issue where they can't do it all at 61.5.

So... the choice was keep waiting and don't launch new HD for anyone... OR go ahead and put it on the west/east arcs... and then see if they can get more people to go ahead and convert to the other "arc" configurations quicker than they could get the 61.5 problem addressed.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Just had to have an extensive chat with the installer, who didn't believe me that I needed to be swapped to EA. *sigh*

We're all straight now, though.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

ShapeShifter said:


> It's in my driveway at home.
> 
> It's doubly interesting that I can get 129 with the dome, since the reflector in the dome is significantly smaller than a regular dish. It's roughly the equivalent of an 18" dish that's been cut in half.


So in your home you could get everything if you added a second wing dish aimed at 129°? The Eastern Arc is basically useless but you have to have 61.5° for HD locals, 110°/119° for SD locals which would give you some HD nationals, and 129° for the remaining HD nationals.

The question is how well your boxes would sort out the duplicates. It strikes me that Dish has to work this out for folks in the Buffalo DMA. If you can't get a reasonable response via the normal communications, you definitely should email [email protected] for assistance. It strikes me that they could authorize the Western Arc and your HD locals on 61.5 and you would have everything.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Yeah - DPP44 switch with the 61.5 on the wing,and 110/119/129 on a 1000.2


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

phrelin said:


> So in your home you could get everything if you added a second wing dish aimed at 129°? The Eastern Arc is basically useless but you have to have 61.5° for HD locals, 110°/119° for SD locals which would give you some HD nationals, and 129° for the remaining HD nationals.


I suppose that's true. But three dishes? I'm not sure that's worth it just for a couple more HD channels.



scooper said:


> Yeah - DPP44 switch with the 61.5 on the wing,and 110/119/129 on a 1000.2


Now that sounds a bit better -- replace the existing Dish 500 with a 1000.2.

But on second thought, is the DP44 really necessary? Does the 1000.2 have an input for an additional slot, like the 500 has? As it is right now, the line from the DPP wing dish goes to the input of the DPP 500, and the two outputs from the 500 go to the two ViP 612s through DPP separators. Seems that I might just be able to replace the 500 with a 1000.2, and basically keep the wiring the same.

Also, that would give me an extra output, since the 1000.2 has three outs compared to the two on the 500, doesn't it? That would let me run a line from the third output to the motorhome parking pad, which would eliminate the need to use the limited functionality dome to keep that receiver alive -- I would have full functionality.

Now, THAT has possibilities, and is probably worth the effort. I knew if I kept b****ing and moaning about it, you guys would work out a good solution!

You guys rock, I'm not worthy! :gott:

So, other than dealing with my 129 issues, what am I missing, what's the downside? Will the receiver be able to sort out the duplicates between 61.5 and 129? Does anybody here successfully use a 61.5/110/119/129 setup?

On edit: Just checked the LOS for a 1000.2 -- assuming it would be aimed a little lower and a little West of where the 500 is pointed, there should be no obstructions. There is lots of clear sky in the general direction that the 500 is pointed.

_PS: phrelin, I have to laugh. Every time I run the spell checker, it wants to change your name to "phreaking!" :lol:_


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

DPP44 is not necessary with 1000.2 or 1000.4.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

ShapeShifter said:


> _PS: phrelin, I have to laugh. Every time I run the spell checker, it wants to change your name to "phreaking!" :lol:_


:grin: Never noticed that. It's a combination of my last name and my wife's last name that we created to be our url - phrelin.com


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

BNUMM said:


> DPP44 is not necessary with 1000.2 or 1000.4.


I assumed it did require one - if it doesn't, then it's an even better solution.


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## sepaperson (Jan 17, 2010)

61.5 is there for a reason... us in the NE can't SEE 129 or if so, the signal is weak. They are going to move another bird to 61.5 to aid the ailing one now. At that time, they'll undoubtedly put the new HD channels on there. A 1000.99999 dish isn't going to help in this area for the reasons stated above unless they move the 129 bird higher.


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## fryguy503 (Sep 3, 2009)

Just remember any of the EA birds require MPEG 4 equipment. MPEG 2 will *NOT* pick up 61.5/77/72 at all.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

sepaperson said:


> 61.5 is there for a reason... us in the NE can't SEE 129 or if so, the signal is weak. They are going to move another bird to 61.5 to aid the ailing one now. At that time, they'll undoubtedly put the new HD channels on there. A 1000.99999 dish isn't going to help in this area for the reasons stated above unless they move the 129 bird higher.


Which is why I got an EA dish in the Philly area; I don't have to worry about 129 because now I have 61.5/72/77.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Well the new "customer program" is working. After Ten years with Dish, I have scheduled Fios to install next month.

Biggest regrets is I have a bunch of recodings (5 EHD) that I will lose and from reports of have heard FIOS has a small and mediocre DVR. But with my bundle of FIOS services (I already use Fios for phone and Internet, and have Verizon cell service), the Fios Tv for at least the first two years will be a lot cheaper.


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

I had $37 in fees on my account. $14 for 222, $17 for 625, $6 for DVR fee. I called and dropped the 625 off the account and downgraded to the Top 200 package dropping the bill by $27 a month and keeping it around $90 which is high enough to pay for TV in my opinion.

I don't know how they justify charging $17 a month for an extra DVR receiver. One of these days, satellite programming will cost so much only the wealthy will be able to afford it.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

Link said:


> I don't know how they justify charging $17 a month for an extra DVR receiver.


It depends on the DVR receiver.


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

Kent Taylor said:


> It depends on the DVR receiver.


A 625...$17 is too high. It isn't even an HD receiver nor did we use it for watching TV in two different rooms. We just ran it in single mode to be able to record two shows at once.

I love how they claim there is only a DVR fee per account now of $6.00 yet they increased the receiver fee on the 625 by $7.00. It used to be on my bill for $10.00 a month ($5.00 receiver fee, $5.00 DVR fee).


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## fryguy503 (Sep 3, 2009)

Link said:


> A 625...$17 is too high. It isn't even an HD receiver nor did we use it for watching TV in two different rooms. We just ran it in single mode to be able to record two shows at once.
> 
> I love how they claim there is only a DVR fee per account now of $6.00 yet they increased the receiver fee on the 625 by $7.00. It used to be on my bill for $10.00 a month ($5.00 receiver fee, $5.00 DVR fee).


Marketing my friend. You could *upgrade* to a 512 rcvr and just pay $10/mo vs $17/mo. I pay $15 for my comcast DVR and its my only box. Where as Dish gives you the First 2 tv's no charge ( duo box ) but 1 account level $6 charge. Granted my comcast box does 1 tv, dual recording and is HD. I would drop that box and pay $30+/mo for a 625 or VIp series in a heartbeat, this cisco RNG200 is absolute crap.


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## Shadowslade (Feb 19, 2010)

Link said:


> I had $37 in fees on my account. $14 for 222, $17 for 625, $6 for DVR fee. I called and dropped the 625 off the account and downgraded to the Top 200 package dropping the bill by $27 a month and keeping it around $90 which is high enough to pay for TV in my opinion.
> 
> I don't know how they justify charging $17 a month for an extra DVR receiver. One of these days, satellite programming will cost so much only the wealthy will be able to afford it.


I deal with this on a daily basis, I actually work for Directv and every time I watch Dish Networks ridiculous commercials about "why pay more for TV" adds I laugh at how deceiving these advertisements are. To give you a quick example, if you downgraded to the Silver 200 package, i am assuming you had their Gold 250... Which is comparable to Directvs Choice Xtra package. So lets do the break down for you.

Choice Xtra - $63.99 (reg price, not including any new customer offers)
4 total rooms - $15.00 (1st room free, $5 per additional room)
DVR service - $7

Total - $85.99 and that is reg price AFTER your 1 year of promotional pricing.

Now in comparison to what your getting now from you post, you have 2 rooms set up with a package that gives you 42 less video channels and your paying MORE money than you would with DTV.

And unlike Dish, our prices for HD access and DVR service are account wide, 1 charge no matter how many capable receivers you have on the account. where dish is charging you dvr service AND up to $17 per capable receiver.

Also i dont know about you guys, but Dish networks duo dvrs are very inconvenient in my opinion. The ability to record a show and watch on the other tv that the receiver is also controlling is nice but its a pain to have to pick a room to have the recording going on in. I Love the ability to watch one show while recording all on the same tv without having to make a diff room unusable. And if you pay for HD..... YOU GET TRUE HD ON EACH HD RECEIVER. none of this duo tv control, one HD tuner and one standard tuner stuff. If your going to pay for HD dont you want to be getting true HD on each tv that your trying to get it on? not to mention the fact that as of now we have 132 hd channels compared to dishs 101 BEFORE our new satellite that we just launched starts airing programming. once thats up and running fully that will put it up to 200 HD channels.

I think after you do some true research you will see that the whole " why pay more for TV " claim, is just that.... A claim. 90% of the time you can get a similiar package for close to the same price, with better equipment in my opinion


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Shadowslade said:


> I deal with this on a daily basis, I actually work for Directv...
> 
> :beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:


Don't feed the troll.


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## fryguy503 (Sep 3, 2009)

RasputinAXP said:


> Don't feed the troll.


QFT


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

To add to "The February 2010 Create Unhappy Customers Program," Dish has now added PBS HD to small DMA's (the largest was 99 out of Nielsen's 210). See the thread PBS. To quote one post:


nmetro said:


> But, for folks in places like New York, Boston, Denver, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Washington DC, Seattle, we are still stuck with "center cut" SD.


I guess this is a "pull the bandage off quickly" month.:sure:


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## reddice (Feb 18, 2003)

Shadowslade said:


> I deal with this on a daily basis, I actually work for Directv


Yea okay. DirecTV has two I count it two HBO in HD with the other one being the west feed. The rest in cruddy SD only and they don't even carry Comedy and Zone. Also Dish Networks DVR blows away DirecTV cruddy DVR.

Okay I stopped feeding the trolls now.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

phrelin said:


> To add to "The February 2010 Create Unhappy Customers Program," Dish has now added PBS HD to small DMA's (the largest was 99 out of Nielsen's 210). See the thread PBS. To quote one post: I guess this is a "pull the bandage off quickly" month.:sure:


It looks like they are trying to fulfill their obligation to have all HD channels in 15% of the DMAs that have any channels carried in HD.

The easiest way is to do the low station count DMAs first.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

I was pretty bent out of shape last month when I heard about the increases. Now that I got my bill it looks like our programming actually went down in price. But we only have one receiver. I will probably be adding a 211k here before too long for our bedroom but the cost should only go up about 7 dollars a month.

BTW, HD on Dish are way beyond DirecTV as are the DVRs.  SD is light years beyond what DirectTV shoves down peoples throats. I don't work for dish BTW but I had DirecTV and have Dish now.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Jim5506 said:


> It looks like they are trying to fulfill their obligation to have all HD channels in 15% of the DMAs that have any channels carried in HD.
> 
> The easiest way is to do the low station count DMAs first.


I have to admit... that does make sense... and is a likely outcome whenever a quota is set. Whenever someone sets a quota or "bar" or whatever... it inevitably has a somewhat opposite effect of what was intended. Instead of encouraging growth, it stifles the growth to just that minimum level AND influences how/where the growth happens as the easiest path to meet that minimum.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Government planning often runs into the law of unintended consequences.

You make rules, you influence behavior, often in the opposite way you wanted.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

Shadowslade said:


> I deal with this on a daily basis, I actually work for Directv and every time I watch Dish Networks ridiculous commercials about "why pay more for TV" adds I laugh at how deceiving these advertisements are. To give you a quick example, if you downgraded to the Silver 200 package, i am assuming you had their Gold 250... Which is comparable to Directvs Choice Xtra package. So lets do the break down for you.
> 
> Choice Xtra - $63.99 (reg price, not including any new customer offers)
> 4 total rooms - $15.00 (1st room free, $5 per additional room)
> ...


$62.99 - America's Top 250
$6.00 - Account DVR Fee
$17.00 - 4 tv's on DVR
_______
$85.99

well huh, exact same price...

$62.99 - America's Top 250
$6.00 - Account DVR Fee
$30.00 - 4 tv's on HD DVR
_______
$98.99

Having the best HD DVR's on the market...priceless (honestly worth the $13.00 more for me, don't know about the rest of you). Or if you want to compare to the AT200 like he suggested, take $10.00 off those two price sets I listed.

(I know, I shouldn't feed the troll, but couldn't help myself.)


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## Shadowslade (Feb 19, 2010)

puckwithahalo said:


> $62.99 - America's Top 250
> $6.00 - Account DVR Fee
> $17.00 - 4 tv's on DVR
> _______
> ...


You know what the best part of this post is? You actually think you proved me wrong on something..... Where as you actually made my point AGAIN. So thank you for proving that Dish is not cheaper. Exact same price or more. Oh and btw, like i said before. Choice Xtra gives you 42 more channels than Top 250. therefore, even if your price is the exact same, your getting less for your money.

As far as the DVRs, with your set up, you have 2 Receivers controlling 4 tvs, which Im sure your aware of, not only do you NOT get HD in all rooms but you also have to make one of your rooms unusable while recording bc you have use that tuner. Hardly better equipment.

Now here's the part you are obviously missing, that $85.99 is the same price whether you have 1 hd dvr and 3 standard receivers or hd dvrs in all 4 rooms because DTV doesnt charge some ridiculous charge per DVR. so if you really want DVR access in 4 rooms, your monthly price stays the same but you get not only TRUE HD ON ALL TVS, but up to 8 shows being recorded at once, 2 per tv. Not to mention with DTV HD DVR you get access to DTV on demand so you can access the online database of thousands of movies and tv shows FREE.

So like i said, best HD DVRs if they are the only ones you've ever used maybe. DTV's HD DVRs are way more convenient, way more storage space, extra features you dont get with dish's and overall cheaper. (Not to mention that all those prices are if you have phone lines attached to each receiver with dish, we wouldnt want to start including their $5 fees for not having a phone line, now would we.)

So yes, please continue to feed the troll.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

Shadowslade said:


> Choice Xtra gives you 42 more channels than Top 250. therefore, even if your price is the exact same, your getting less for your money.


That's just straight wrong. AT250 - 277 channels, Choice Xtra - 216 channels. Maybe you were thinking the AT200 (which has 221 channels by the way, still more). Prices I gave were for the Top 250, subtract $10.00 for the Top 200. Oh, and I acquired said channel numbers by taking the channel listings for each, eliminating all duplicate channels that might have been listed as well as regional sports networks, since those vary by location. Had there actually been 42 more channels in the choice xtra package, I'd have been happy to acknowledge that, but, well, there aren't.

(specifically to get channel counts, I took the list of channels each website gave me as the channels I would get with the packages, pasted them into a word file, put each channel on its own line, found and deleted any duplicate channels and regional sports networks, then just looked at the total number of lines in the document. If someone thinks I didn't give an honest count and has a good reason, I'll re-evaluate my numbers, but I think they're pretty accurate).



Shadowslade said:


> As far as the DVRs, with your set up, you have 2 Receivers controlling 4 tvs, which Im sure your aware of, not only do you NOT get HD in all rooms but you also have to make one of your rooms unusable while recording bc you have use that tuner. Hardly better equipment.
> 
> Now here's the part you are obviously missing, that $85.99 is the same price whether you have 1 hd dvr and 3 standard receivers or hd dvrs in all 4 rooms because DTV doesnt charge some ridiculous charge per DVR. so if you really want DVR access in 4 rooms, your monthly price stays the same but you get not only TRUE HD ON ALL TVS, but up to 8 shows being recorded at once, 2 per tv.


First set of prices I listed were for 4 tv's, 2 HD, 2 non. Or all 4 SD if you prefer, either way, for that situation 61 more channels for the same price. hm...

I did list a second set of prices for 4 HD DVR's each dual-tuner. I did acknowledge that the price would be higher for that. I have used Direct TV's HD DVR's, and yes, I do think Dish's are worth $13.00 more per month for that setup, and let us not forget that is with 61 more channels. Oh, and those 4 HD DVR's can record a total of 12 things at one time (2 satellite feeds and 1 off-air feed per receiver).



Shadowslade said:


> (Not to mention that all those prices are if you have phone lines attached to each receiver with dish, we wouldnt want to start including their $5 fees for not having a phone line, now would we.)


Phone line fee no longer exists bud, the prices I gave were total programming and equipment costs. Only thing I can't list is tax because, well that varies by location.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

How did this thread turn into a DirecTV versus Dish Network price comparison thread? Most of us here know that under certain circumstances one is cheaper than the other. We also know that the package contents are different and if you really need certain channels you have to use the service that provides those channels. Anyone with modest computer skills can go to both web sites and compare - just read the fine print for the regular pricing.

I started this *The February 2010 Create Unhappy Customers Program* thread because:

_*In February*_ Dish restructured its rates which resulted in some customers seeing a significant increase while others saw a slight price drop this month.
*In February*, it added another insult to some customers who because of satellite configuration could not get the new HD channels in their packages.
 _*In February*_ just to irk me in particular (yeah, I'm that important:sure, they chose to add PBS HD in a number of the smallest DMAs in order to conform to a requirement for showing all HD channels in 15% of the DMAs in which it offers HD local channels instead of providing PBS HD to the major markets.
So...
:backtotop


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

phrelin said:


> How did this thread turn into a DirecTV versus Dish Network price comparison thread? Most of us here know that under certain circumstances one is cheaper than the other. We also know that the package contents are different and if you really need certain channels you have to use the service that provides those channels. Anyone with modest computer skills can go to both web sites and compare - just read the fine print for the regular pricing.
> 
> I started this *The February 2010 Create Unhappy Customers Program* thread because:
> 
> ...


sorry, got carried away.  I don't normally do that, even in comparison threads.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

> AT250 - 277 channels


Problem is, 200 ( or more ) of those are shopping, Sirius, other CD/Muzak, DishPromoChannels, Community Interest (Colors, BITV), etc., etc., etc.

You end up with about 40 channels that have any real programming.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

From what Scott G. reports on his board, they will be intensifying the Unhappy Customers Program in future months. So if you didn't make a decision on getting equipment yet you may be even more unhappy

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/203777-more-hd-move-61-5-72-7-a.html


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

puckwithahalo said:


> Phone line fee no longer exists bud, ...


It's been "simplified" into the single charge for a receiver. What no longer exists is a way to get out of something that shouldn't have existed in the first place.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

tnsprin said:


> From what Scott G. reports on his board, they will be intensifying the Unhappy Customers Program in future months. So if you didn't make a decision on getting equipment yet you may be even more unhappy
> 
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/203777-more-hd-move-61-5-72-7-a.html


That sure sounds like that could be the case.  It seems like the situation for some of us might only get worse. :crying:

___________________________

A couple of the comments on that thread over there got me annoyed -- there are people who obviously don't realize that there are special situations out there and that not everybody falls into a nice EA/WA split. It must be nice to live in a fantasy world.

One guy writes:


> Well this puts all subs on notice then. If you have mixed arc service today(110/119/61.5), you better make a choice soon to go with either western or eastern arc service and stop sitting on the proverbial fence .


He seems to be oblivious to the fact that Dish could be forcing some of us to be "on the proverbial fence" by spreading our locals channels on 61.5, 110, AND 119. Some of us have no choice but to be split between arcs.

And another writes:


> Then remember that everyone installed in the past couple of years has either 129 or 72.
> 
> So that means that only relatively early adopters of HD have 119-110-61.5, which is exactly the same people who participate in Internet Forums.
> 
> I'd be surprised if 1% of Dish subscribers have that setup (and subscribe to HD).


Well, personally, my system was put in less than two years ago, and I don't get 129 or 72. I would not consider myself an early adopter. I'm sure that every HD subscriber in my DMA (even the ones installed last month!) are in the same boat. While I may be a smaller market (ranked 52 out of 210) that still puts us right near the top quarter, so I don't think we're an insignificant user base. And I'll bet Buffalo isn't the only market in this bind.

These guys make it sound like it's our fault and we had it coming to us. I resent that. I was ready to sign up on that forum and rebut them, but that forum is just too painful to follow with all of the intrusive advertising and horrible layout. I got a headache from reading just one thread!


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

BobaBird said:


> It's been "simplified" into the single charge for a receiver. What no longer exists is a way to get out of something that shouldn't have existed in the first place.


My point was that all charges I had listed were the final total charges. He was implying there was a tv2 connection fee on top of the $17.00 for a duo dvr.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

So as I understand it, HD customers with 110°/119°/61.5° needs to call a special number 888-701-8965 as the future is on 72.7° or 129°.

Has anyone tried that number?


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## electro22 (Jun 29, 2009)

Thanks for the number, just tried, same story and offer ($95 or the DHPP $15) 
This time, the representative said that no existing HD channels will be moving (except for some international channels) to the new satellite. And the new channels that were just added will be available on my setup satellite in the near future (I have 119/110/61.5). 
I asked, "so if I do nothing, will I be able to receive the newly added HD channels and future new HD channels?" The rep assured me that yes, if I stay with my current setup that I will receive them, just have to wait a month or so.

Well, I hope that's the case. I may not like to wait, but I can knowing that the channels will eventually arrive.


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## coldsteel (Mar 29, 2007)

They're not moving off 129 or 72.7 at all.


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## electro22 (Jun 29, 2009)

coldsteel said:


> They're not moving off 129 or 72.7 at all.


Do you mean the channels will never appear on 110/119/61.5? Or is it possible that they will be on both?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Doubtful they will appear on 119/110/61.5 - not until there is a replacement at 61.5 for E*3, at the least.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

The reality is, Dish's long term plan appears to be to serve HD customers off the two "arcs", 110°/119°/129° for the Western Arc and 61.5°/72.7°/77° for the Eastern Arc. They have some problems that scramble things a bit, but I have a feeling 110°/119°/61.5° HD customers are going to find themselves in the category of "legacy customers" who will continue to get what they can get today.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

phrelin said:


> The reality is, Dish's long term plan appears to be to serve HD customers off the two "arcs", 110°/119°/129° for the Western Arc and 61.5°/72.7°/77° for the Eastern Arc. They have some problems that scramble things a bit, but I have a feeling 110°/119°/61.5° HD customers are going to find themselves in the category of "legacy customers" who will continue to get what they can get today.


+1 - and I understand exactly why. When I'm going to subscribe on HD - it will be for the full Eastern Arc (western arc is doable for Raleigh DMA, but 129 is not LOS for my house). In actuallity - Eastern Arc would actually be better - trees are not as much of a problem.


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## mikant (Apr 7, 2004)

phrelin said:


> So as I understand it, HD customers with 110°/119°/61.5° needs to call a special number 888-701-8965 as the future is on 72.7° or 129°.
> 
> Has anyone tried that number?


I just called and got an American that I could understand. I'm in Pittsburgh area so get locals on 118.7. Also have 110, 119 and 61.5 on a wing dish.
CSR said I could pay $99 for an eastern arc dish, but could not also have 118.7 with that dish. Argued a bit, but she was adament that I could not have eastern arc and western arc at the same time. Maybe I should just buy a 1000.4 dish and install myself, would save the installer appointment hassle. Maybe I will call another day...after the snow melts off the dish mounts.


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## fryguy503 (Sep 3, 2009)

mikant said:


> I just called and got an American that I could understand. I'm in Pittsburgh area so get locals on 118.7. Also have 110, 119 and 61.5 on a wing dish.
> CSR said I could pay $99 for an eastern arc dish, but could not also have 118.7 with that dish. Argued a bit, but she was adament that I could not have eastern arc and western arc at the same time. Maybe I should just buy a 1000.4 dish and install myself, would save the installer appointment hassle. Maybe I will call another day...after the snow melts off the dish mounts.


You should NOT be moved to EA as pittsburgh is a WA area. All locals are on 110 and 129 in Pitts now. a few are still Simulcast on 118 but are being removed.


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## mikant (Apr 7, 2004)

fryguy503 said:


> You should NOT be moved to EA as pittsburgh is a WA area. All locals are on 110 and 129 in Pitts now. a few are still Simulcast on 118 but are being removed.


No, I can't get 129. I am so bummed. Pittsburgh area is hilly, so it is seems like you either see 61.5 or 129, but not both.


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## mikant (Apr 7, 2004)

Hmmm, could Pittsburgh HD locals be going to 77?

6477 WTAE (ABC 4) MPEG4 HD 77°W 02 QPSK TURBO CODED (5/6) ConUS beam Pittsburgh, PA Not Available 
6478 KDKA (CBS 2) MPEG4 HD 77°W 02 QPSK TURBO CODED (5/6) ConUS beam Pittsburgh, PA Not Available 
6479 WPXI (NBC 11) MPEG4 HD 77°W 02 QPSK TURBO CODED (5/6) ConUS beam Pittsburgh, PA Not Available 
6480 WPGH (FOX 53) MPEG4 HD 77°W 02 QPSK TURBO CODED (5/6) ConUS beam Pittsburgh, PA Not Available


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

One thing I haven't seen is a big launch letter from Dish about the new channels. I wonder if they are actually waiting until the move more, and more locals to EA.


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## fryguy503 (Sep 3, 2009)

mikant said:


> Hmmm, could Pittsburgh HD locals be going to 77?
> 
> 6477 WTAE (ABC 4) MPEG4 HD 77°W 02 QPSK TURBO CODED (5/6) ConUS beam Pittsburgh, PA Not Available
> 6478 KDKA (CBS 2) MPEG4 HD 77°W 02 QPSK TURBO CODED (5/6) ConUS beam Pittsburgh, PA Not Available
> ...


god i hope not. We just got done moving people from 118.7 to 129 i dont want to have to tell those people, yea were changing them again.


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## mikant (Apr 7, 2004)

fryguy503 said:


> god i hope not. We just got done moving people from 118.7 to 129 i dont want to have to tell those people, yea were changing them again.


Are any other locals on both EA and WA?


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

mikant said:


> Are any other locals on both EA and WA?


Grand Rapids, Michigan.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Raleigh NC - but with Raleigh - all stations are available on both.


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## grcooperjr (Mar 19, 2008)

Howdy Folks....

Yeap, they sure did clobber me. 

I got 7 722's and 1 222. My bill went up a whopping $119 per month for the extra receiver cost. I got a $11 credit to help offset the increase. That gives me a new monthly total of $298 per month.....

Called Dish and they don't seem to be concerned about the increase as it only affects a few customers like myself. The CSR stated that the vast majority of their customers only have 1 or 2 receivers so the charge is minimal. 

So for the total of $298 per moth total fees, I guess it's time to go shoping....

This really sucks.....


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## coldsteel (Mar 29, 2007)

grcooperjr said:


> Howdy Folks....
> 
> Yeap, they sure did clobber me.
> 
> ...


No offense, but I'll call 'shenanigens' on this unless you can say what your base package is.

If you have AEP, you were paying $103, then $7 per HDDVR and $7 for the 222. That's $152. Now, you pay $99, $6 DVR fee and $17 x 6 and $14 x 1. That's $221 before the $11 credit.

Any other package, you were paying $12.98 per additional HDDVR and $7 for the 222 and a $5.98 DVR fee. Now, you pay $17 per HDDVR and 414 for the 222 and $6 DVR fee. Still only a doube-digit change.


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## grcooperjr (Mar 19, 2008)

coldsteel said:


> No offense, but I'll call 'shenanigens' on this unless you can say what your base package is.


Well.....

it's 17.00 times 7 for the 722's for $119 
$7.00 times 1 for the 222
less $11.00 equipment credit.

$99.99 for the everything package
$10 for HD gold
$6.00 Equipment service plan plan
Playboy and some sports package that my son wants comes up to $68.00

119.00
7.00
99.99
10.00
6.00
68.00

308.00 sub total
11.00 less equip credit
298.99 total


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## fryguy503 (Sep 3, 2009)

grcooperjr said:


> Well.....
> 
> it's 17.00 times 7 for the 722's for $119
> $7.00 times 1 for the 222
> ...


Dont Forget that CS did the math correctly by including the First 722 in the price of the programming.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

grcooperjr said:


> Well.....
> 
> it's 17.00 times 7 for the 722's for $119
> $7.00 times 1 for the 222
> ...


I think what Coldsteel is talking about is the Net Difference. 
You were paying $152, now you are paying $221, for a Net Difference of $69, not a $119 difference. CD couldn't see how you were seeing a triple digit increase.
Now $69 is a BIG number and a large increase, getting $11 discount is nice but not GREAT.

I am not including the playboy package or the sports package as these didn't change in price and wouldn't effect the net difference part of the bill.


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## kodiak_ak (Mar 9, 2010)

I am trying to get an idea of what is changing with Dish HD programming. Can you help with a short explanation?

JimK


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

kodiak_ak said:


> I am trying to get an idea of what is changing with Dish HD programming. Can you help with a short explanation?
> 
> JimK


Dish is adding new channels to the HD lineup. That's the short answer.

But I am assuming you're wondering why people are complaining. I don't know how to explain that in a short explanation.

Here in the lower 48, Dish has created an Eastern Arc of satellites located at 61.5°/72.7°/77° and a Western Arc of satellites located at 110°/119°/129°. The last additions to HD were added to satellites located at 72.7° and 129°. Unfortunately, there are many customers receiving their service from satellites located at 110°/119°/61.5° so they didn't get the new channels.

For a few, re-aiming their 61.5° dish to 129° solves the problem, but many don't have a line-of-sight to 129°. For others in the East, getting a new 1000.4 dish aimed at the Eastern Arc solves their problem. But for some, their local HD or SD channels are not on Eastern Arc satellites. So that solution doesn't work for them.


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## kodiak_ak (Mar 9, 2010)

phrelin said:


> Dish is adding new channels to the HD lineup. That's the short answer.
> 
> But I am assuming you're wondering why people are complaining. I don't know how to explain that in a short explanation.
> 
> ...


Phrelin

Thanks for the info, I was concerned that Alaska's HD situation may be changing.

Jimk


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## naptime (Mar 12, 2006)

kodiak_ak said:


> Thanks for the info, I was concerned that Alaska's HD situation may be changing.
> 
> Jimk


My understanding is that Alaska's HD situation will be changing, hopefully for the better, when Echostar 14 goes live in a couple of months at 119º. I think it launches in a couple of weeks.


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