# DLB exist its just a software bug



## davel (May 1, 2007)

Feel free to say that this has already been brought up but after watching tv this weekend and reproducing the issue, DLB's should be doable. Is this new with this version of software or has this always been around.

Take channel 1 and channel 2, neither recording. If I use previous channel the buffers are lost (duhh). The work around has already been to record both. 

10:50 
Now I am watching channel 1 for ten minutes and I switch back to channel 2

11:00 channel 1 starts recording (while watching channel 2)

11:10 I switch back to channel 1 and rewind... I can rewind into the buffer past 11:00.... even after watching channel 2. This proves that the buffer exists on channel 1even while on the channel 2.

I go to the guide (while watching channel 1) at 11:15 and record channel 2. The buffer is recorded from 10:50..... 

This proves that there are DLB, and the buffer is lost when changing BACK to the channel not away from the channel.

DTV fix the crappy software and give me true DLB's!!!


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 12, 2006)

I think I understand what you are saying - since there seems to be a buffer available when a tuner is recording, that buffer should also be available when watching live - right? Maybe - I do think it would be odd if the recording was being done directly to disk with no buffer - that doesn't sound like a very efficient way to handle the disk I/O. IDK... :scratchin


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

I think that that is the reason why those of us that want DLB are confused. The HR20 seems to be capable of it, just that Directv doesn't see fit to let us have it. I understand that there may be other issues. But I don't recall ever seeing that the receiver wasn't capable of doing it.

Come on, if a Moxie box can do it, why can't the HR20?


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## Mike P (Feb 10, 2007)

*Juicy thread! Oh man, I'd be such a happy camper with Dual Live Buffers!!!*


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

davel said:


> Feel free to say that this has already been brought up but after watching tv this weekend and reproducing the issue, DLB's should be doable. Is this new with this version of software or has this always been around.
> 
> DTV fix the crappy software and give me true DLB's!!!


OK I will; For the love of ..... not another DLB thread. There is nothing to fix. The software is not broken. No one ever promised DLB nor was it advertised nor has it ever been a part of the software, so how is this broken? We all know it's doable; D just decided not to do it.

There I feel much freer having said that.


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## garywitt (Nov 2, 2006)

jgrade said:


> OK I will; For the love of ..... not another DLB thread. There is nothing to fix. The software is not broken. No one ever promised DLB nor was it advertised nor has it ever been a part of the software, so how is this broken? We all know it's doable; D just decided not to do it.
> 
> There I feel much freer having said that.


I think we need more DLB threads. More DLB posts. More emails to DirecTV regarding DLB until they realize how important it is to their customers. After all, this is their "flagship receiver."

D just decided not to do it? Why? That just doesn't make sense to me. Earl has said that DLB has not been taken off the table - but why are they not committing to implementing DLB? We know the hardware can do it. We know customers want it. What is the downside?


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

When the original could do it from day 1 (Tivo) AND it is such a major feature, all the knockoffs have no choice but to implement it or be considered "inferior".


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## dpd0961 (Aug 23, 2006)

garywitt said:


> I think we need more DLB threads. More DLB posts. More emails to DirecTV regarding DLB until they realize how important it is to their customers. After all, this is their "flagship receiver."
> 
> D just decided not to do it? Why? That just doesn't make sense to me. Earl has said that DLB has not been taken off the table - but why are they not committing to implementing DLB? We know the hardware can do it. We know customers want it. What is the downside?


I agree 100%. Why can't we at least get some kind of statement from DirectTV on this? A definite, one way or the other It feels like we are just being strung along with this by being told it's not on the table, and it's not off the table. If there is a problem getting this implemented on this box, it would be nice to know that. This is obviously a very important feature to a lot of subscribers, myself included, and the one glaring omission remaining from this box in my opinion. I still have hope that it will be added, but I agree that we need to keep beating them over the head with this, unfortunately.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Note: This is not comming from DirecTV... just out of my frustration of people demanding a definitive answer, when there isn't one to give...
--------------

What do you want DirecTV to say?

"No, DLB is not comming"...
but then maybe in 6 months, or a year from now it does...
"Sorry, we where only kidding back then... "

Basically, it is not there today, won't be there "tomorrow", but it doesn't mean it will NEVER be there. So make your choices on converting based on those facts.... 

It is still on the "table", it has not been swept away... it has not been definitively put in the "we will never do it" bucket.

As to every dvr being "inferior" to TiVo because TiVo has dual live buffers...
Please... a DVR is for recording... Is it a nice feature if you MUST watch two live programs at once... but to claim everything else is "inferior" because you can watch two programs at once on a RECORDING device...


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## NYHeel (Aug 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Note: This is not comming from DirecTV... just out of my frustration of people demanding a definitive answer, when there isn't one to give...
> --------------
> 
> What do you want DirecTV to say?
> ...


We want Directv to tell us why we don't have DLB? Why is it not a priority? So many people seem to want it and it seems so easy to implement.

I agree that DLB is a luxury feature outside of the core features of a DVR. I was very intruiged when I got my first DTivo and figured out how to use it. Now I'm very used to it and consider it a basic part of a DVR. Now remember that the DTivo was not a Tivo. It was a Directv DVR powered by Tivo. So basically Directv had a "Directv DVR" with DLB and now has a "Directv DVR" without it. That's why I'm annoyed about it. When you're upgrading a product you don't want to take away features.


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## dpd0961 (Aug 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Note: This is not comming from DirecTV... just out of my frustration of people demanding a definitive answer, when there isn't one to give...
> --------------
> 
> What do you want DirecTV to say?
> ...


I guess the question that at least I would like answered is, "does DirecTV plan on implementing DLB's to the HR20?" Not even necessarily a timeframe, but is it in their plans at some point? I don't feel that's an unreasonable question to ask. It's a hot button for a lot of people, and it would be nice to know DirecTV's thoughts. I have no plans to leave DirecTV, so I'm not looking to base any conversion decisions on this, I just think this is a great feature and if they could add it, that would be nice to know. If they can't add it or won't add it for whatever reason, people should know that too, so they could forget about this. I don't think the "DLB people" are really asking for too much.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

NYHeel said:


> We want Directv to tell us why we don't have DLB? Why is it not a priority? So many people seem to want it and it seems so easy to implement.


Why we don't have DLB? DirecTV chose not to put it in *THEIR* DVR platform. As for why they chose that... no idea.. .and I doubt we will ever be told.

Why is it not a priority? DirecTV has opted to make other features a priority based on the *THEIR* goals on what they want to do for *THEIR* service.

"it seems so easy to implement"... as any software developer can tell you, what might "seem" easy on the surface, can be EXTREMELY difficult to implement underneath. (Note I am not saying that is or isn't, just that perception doesn't always equal reality)

-----------
The HR20 was not billed as an "upgrade" to TiVo or the Ultimate TV..
It is a new product line.

Not every single feature from other products will be included in the next product. Especially if it is a new product line, not based on the previous.

So anyone assuming that every feature you had in your TiVo, which as you stated, was nothing more then an SA TiVo with an integrated DirecTV tuner....


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Note: This is not comming from DirecTV... just out of my frustration of people demanding a definitive answer, when there isn't one to give...
> --------------
> As to every dvr being "inferior" to TiVo because TiVo has dual live buffers...
> Please... a DVR is for recording... Is it a nice feature if you MUST watch two live programs at once... but to claim everything else is "inferior" because you can watch two programs at once on a RECORDING device...


Earl,
Who said that a DVR had to ONLY be used to watch programs hours after they aired or days later??? Last I checked, a DVR recorder is used to TIMESHIFT a program that is airing live. It doesn't matter if that timeshift is two months or 5 seconds. Its still a function of a DVR to record a 'live' stream and be able to play it at w/e time the user so chooses. TiVo opened many peoples eyes to having the ability to record two of those 'live' streams and timeshift them to whenever the user so chooses within that 30 minute buffer period.

Based on your response you would advocate a box that you basically set to record those shows you want and then NEVER watch anything LIVE. Without the ability to watch a program as it airs, thereby not having a need for even a single live buffer. That's called a VCR and I'm pretty sure we've moved beyond that type of technology.

The problem is that DLB may have the name 'Live' in it, but the feature that people want is the ability to buffer two programs within a pre-set length of time so they can timeshift their programming. IMO, that feature DOES classify it as a RECORDING device.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

dpd0961 said:


> I guess the question that at least I would like answered is, "does DirecTV plan on implementing DLB's to the HR20?" Not even necessarily a timeframe, but is it in their plans at some point? I don't feel that's an unreasonable question to ask. It's a hot button for a lot of people, and it would be nice to know DirecTV's thoughts. I have no plans to leave DirecTV, so I'm not looking to base any conversion decisions on this, I just think this is a great feature and if they could add it, that would be nice to know. If they can't add it or won't add it for whatever reason, people should know that too, so they could forget about this. I don't think the "DLB people" are really asking for too much.


Okay: Straight answer:

At this point, they do not have an active plan to implement DLB.

DLB has not been officially, once and forall, eliminated from the system.
Simply means, that it is not on the active list of features to be implemented.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tiger2005 said:


> Earl,
> Who said that a DVR had to ONLY be used to watch programs hours after they aired or days later??? Last I checked, a DVR recorder is used to TIMESHIFT a program that is airing live. It doesn't matter if that timeshift is two months or 5 seconds. Its still a function of a DVR to record a 'live' stream and be able to play it at w/e time the user so chooses. TiVo opened many peoples eyes to having the ability to record two of those 'live' streams and timeshift them to whenever the user so chooses within that 30 minute buffer period.
> 
> Based on your response you would advocate a box that you basically set to record those shows you want and then NEVER watch anything LIVE. Without the ability to watch a program as it airs, thereby not having a need for even a single live buffer. That's called a VCR and I'm pretty sure we've moved beyond that type of technology.
> ...


You are right... you can watch live programming...
And you can time shift two things at once... simply hit record on that second program (or the first as well).

That is the entire benefit of a DVR... timeshift it...
Just because you don't have a floating buffer that already does the recording for you.

And you can do just what you asked... you can "buffer" two programs within a pre-set length of time... that pre-set length of time, is the stated length of the program. Instead of a fixed 30 minute buffer (As it is in the TiVo).

If that 2nd program is *THAT* important, that you must watch it at the same time as another... record it...watch it when the first one is done.

"TiVo open the eyes"... TiVo got people "programmed" that is the only way to watch two programs that are on "right now". And IMHO... that is why people are so adimit about DLB... because that is what they know.... and don't want to change.


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## dpd0961 (Aug 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Okay: Straight answer:
> 
> At this point, they do not have an active plan to implement DLB.
> 
> ...


I didn't ask about active plan to implement, I think we all understand by now that it's not currently "on the table" I asked about any future thoughts on implementation. Basically, CAN it be done? And assuming it can, do they think they will be able add this at some point. I just have a hard time believing they don't have that answer at this point after months of acknowledging that this is a feature that a lot of subscribers want. I think this is what is driving people crazy, and then in conjunction we're obviously driving you crazy.

I do happen to work with software, and where I work, we know what we're going to do plenty of time in advance. We also have to answer customers that ask questions about whether or not we can do something, and if we will be able to get to that request at some time in the future.


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## morbid_fun (Jan 16, 2007)

dpd0961 said:


> I didn't ask about active plan to implement, I think we all understand by now that it's not currently "on the table" I asked about any future thoughts on implementation. Basically, CAN it be done? And assuming it can, do they think they will be able add this at some point. I just have a hard time believing they don't have that answer at this point after months of acknowledging that this is a feature that a lot of subscribers want. I think this is what is driving people crazy, and then in conjunction we're obviously driving you crazy.
> 
> I do happen to work with software, and where I work, we know what we're going to do plenty of time in advance. We also have to answer customers that ask questions about whether or not we can do something, and if we will be able to get to that request at some time in the future.


I am afraid I have to side with Earl on this. What is so hard to understand about Earl's answer? DirecTV knows we want the feature. The feature is still on the table. That is all anyone, including Earl, knows right now.
I realize many people want the feature. I do as well, but we really need to drop the cycle of complaining about the feature not being there and stick with more current happenings, both in DirecTV world and the nation.
Just my two cents.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> You are right... you can watch live programming...
> And you can time shift two things at once... simply hit record on that second program (or the first as well).
> 
> That is the entire benefit of a DVR... timeshift it...
> ...


I agree. I would be the first to stand-up and admit that TiVo programmed me to the DLB feature, but I would also admit it if I found a feature that replaced / changed it and I enjoyed it more. I can totally say that I was someone that very much enjoyed the 30s skip on a TiVo, but IMO D* made an improvement in this area with the 30s slip. It gives you the ability to move 30s very quickly AND advance to the end of a recording. TiVo could not integrate the 'advance to the end' feature with the 30s skip, but D* was able to and I give them alot of credit for that. Both could still be refined, but the concept is better.

I don't want to get into a debate over the differences between recording two programs at once and DLB, but there are problems with NOT having DLB. If my HDD has a limited amount of space left, I can't record that other program I want to 'buffer' without deleting some shows. This can occur VERY frequently especially because of how much space HD programming takes up. Also, I can't pause one recording and hit 'Live TV' or the down arrow to move to the other recording. I either have to go into the List and play the other 'buffer' to keep the pause point (VERY, VERY tedious) or hit the prev button and fast forward, rewind, etc. to the point I had been watching (again, tedious). You also have much more maintenance on the HDD with having to go into the List much more often to delete those 'buffered' programs once they end.

I would be more than willing to give D* a chance if they could come up with a concept that is a better or similar experience than DLB, but the problem many people seem to have is that they don't have any feature that comes close to this feature other than recording two channels at once, which has many problems.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Wow, this thread is going down fast.

A dvr has two purposes in my mind: replace my VCR and to replace my STB so I can receive signals in one unit. I like being able to watch live TV with the live TV enhancements provided by a DVR: pause, backup, then fast forward again to live AND two tuners. For this reason I no longer have receivers, only DVRs as my STBs. Will these features be limited to DVRs? Not if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly: live pause and playback will appear everywhere.

I also like the features of a DVR that enhance my recording and later viewing experience formerly done by VCRs: including two things at once, overlapped recording (an HR20 feature), theoretical automated recording (Comedy Central not helping...), etc. That is why for all my recording devices, I have DVRs.

Why is there this battle brewing? I like to watch TV my way with the promised features of a true DVR that enhances both the live AND the recorded viewing experience. I know it's not too much to ask--it has been done.

Why is there this argument and ego-centric design limitation that a DVR is only a VCR replacement? A DVR is both a receiver and a recorder. A good one does both. A great one enhances both. Lamontcranston's survey is excellent as it recognizes that simple fact: a DVR is both an STB and a recorder.

My humble viewing opinion,
Tom



Earl Bonovich said:


> You are right... you can watch live programming...
> And you can time shift two things at once... simply hit record on that second program (or the first as well).
> 
> That is the entire benefit of a DVR... timeshift it...
> ...


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

I love it -- a new DLB thread :beatdeadhorse: and one that Earl is actively arguing on! :bang :bang :bang

C'mon Earl -- you're giving (and taking) some pretty good shots. :uglyhamme :uglyhamme But, 'fess up. You really want DLB too. It makes so many aspect of tv viewing just simpler and more enjoyable. :goofygrin :goofygrin

I don't want it to be like Tivo. I don't want it as an "upgrade". I just want DLB so I can enjoy uncomplicated tv (and record when I want to, not because I have to just to keep up with two current shows -- yuck! :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: ).

In other words:
I WANT MY D - L - B !!!
:joy: :dance01: :joy: :dance01: :joy:



Earl Bonovich said:


> You are right... you can watch live programming...
> And you can time shift two things at once... simply hit record on that second program (or the first as well).
> 
> That is the entire benefit of a DVR... timeshift it...
> ...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

richlife said:


> But, 'fess up. You really want DLB too. It makes so many aspect of tv viewing just simpler and more enjoyable. :goofygrin :goofygrin


Well actually... I could care less either way.
If it comes... great, I'll probably use it a few times.
If it doesn't.... I am not going to lose sleep over it, as I have been without it for 18 months (R15), and still enjoy my TV viewing 100%.

My personal viewing pattern.... nearly everything is pre-recorded.
Only things that are not, is Football (and I really only care about the Bears), and background noise/viewing... (aka... nothing I am actively intrested in watching. if something does get intresting, I hit R)


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## lucky13 (Nov 27, 2006)

richlife said:


> I love it -- a new DLB thread :beatdeadhorse: and one that Earl is actively arguing on! :bang :bang :bang
> 
> C'mon Earl -- you're giving (and taking) some pretty good shots. :uglyhamme :uglyhamme But, 'fess up. You really want DLB too. It makes so many aspect of tv viewing just simpler and more enjoyable. :goofygrin :goofygrin
> 
> ...


Definitely time to lock this thread. 

Can we talk about Multi-Room Viewing instead?


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

lucky13 said:


> Definitely time to lock this thread.
> 
> Can we talk about Multi-Room Viewing instead?


I agree. I want MRV. If we get DLB great but don't really care.


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## thepackfan (Aug 25, 2006)

Now that is a feature that would far out weight DLB.

Can we talk about Multi-Room Viewing instead? [/QUOTE]


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

We can talk about MRV, but please not in this thread. We have lots ability to have many, many threads. 

Thanks,
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

If...anyone thinks I am telling them to "shut up" about DLB...
Well then my apologize... as that is not the intent...

The answer is... what the answer is.
You all ask me to ask... and I do... and that is the answer. 

They know that there is a user base that wants DLB...
They have not completely rulled out it being added to the system...
But it is also not an active feature under development....



-----------

I truely do understand that people want to actively watch two live programs.
I truely do understand that people want that to be in buffers and not record one or both of them.

I am not trying to tell you how to change the way you "want" to watch TV.... but maybe to a degree I am trying to help you see that there is another way, so you get the most out of the system today, tomorrow, and next week.

If your "want" for DLB overrides any other features that the HR20 gives you... well then your path is pretty much defined then.... as many people point out, you can only bank on the future looking for "so much".

-----------

So again... if anyone thinks I am belittling your want for DLB... think again.
If anyone thinks I am not asking, and providing you with the answers I am given.... think again.

You all have the right to want what ever you want out of the system....doesn't mean it is going to come... just ultimatly means there will be something with your system that you are not happy with.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

IMHO DLB would be easy to implement in the software.

That does not mean doing it wouldn't be trouble free.

Easy to guess that the buffer size would have to:

a. Be cut in half to fit both buffers in the same space.
b. Or the software would have to repartition the drive, hmmm... All the complaints when everything is gone.
c. Use the space allocated to user storage. Hmmm. Where did my free space go? Why did something get deleted and so on.

Just a theory why they may be holding back.

They may also have allocated space for it and none of thos scenarios would apply.

As I say just throwing ideas out to see what sticks

Cheers


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

I'm curious about the technical point made by the OP: is it true that if you've been watching channel 1 at 10:50, switch to channel 2 at 10:51, select the program beginning on Ch 1 at 11:00 to record, and go back to ch. 1 at 11:05 you'll find a buffer that goes all the way back to 10:50? If so, then the buffer doesn't disappear when you leave a channel, but only when you change back to it without having recorded anything on it. That's definitely not the way I thought buffers behaved. I'll have to give it a try.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Obviously DLB is something many people care about and care about whole bunchies! (As do I.) Earl had a most excellent post once rebutting the "it's just TV" concept. His premise: "TV is our escape to other places..." DLB is for some of us our method of grabbing hold of that escape. In my case, especially during Football season where I do not use a DVR to record, I use it to enhance the live. I anchor one tuner on the Packers and on the other tuner surf the rest of the games that have an impact on the Packers. (Frequently division foes, like Da Bears...) 

On the HR20, recording the anchor tuner does not improve my live experience, it makes it worse. If I ever catch up to Live and flip away from the anchor channel, I have to restart the whole bloody playback! Talk about work around--way, way around.

Or I could flip back to the Packer game at live by tuning to their channel--but then I lose any buffering I might want on the other game. Sure, I suppose I could surf by constantly changing what is recording on the non-Packer channel, but who wants to clean up and manage lots and lots of partial recordings? I thought the DVR was supposed to work for me? 

Ah well, this will all work out someday.
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If...anyone thinks I am telling them to "shut up" about DLB...
> Well then my apologize... as that is not the intent...
> 
> The answer is... what the answer is.
> ...


Nicely said, Earl.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Wow, a DLB thread where neither Jaywdetroit or I have chimed in in favor of, what a pleasure....

and the exact purpose of this site is to Debate these issues, so to lock a thread such as this is illogical; it will die its own death with lack of interest....


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> Who said that a DVR had to ONLY be used to watch programs hours after they aired or days later??? Last I checked, a DVR recorder is used to TIMESHIFT a program that is airing live. It doesn't matter if that timeshift is two months or 5 seconds. Its still a function of a DVR to record a 'live' stream and be able to play it at w/e time the user so chooses. TiVo opened many peoples eyes to having the ability to record two of those 'live' streams and timeshift them to whenever the user so chooses within that 30 minute buffer period.


Correct me if I'm wrong, and please understand that I'm not trying to be inflammatory at all here.

Can't we easily simulate what you describe above by simply hitting the record button once while on each of the two tuners you are interested in? Yes, it requires an extra click or two, but it seems to me to be more than an acceptable work-around if you really need to track the progress of two games, e.g.

Is there some other subtle advantage to dual buffers that I'm missing? Or is it just that it's "automatic" and doesn't require the extra click or two of the remote? Just my .02.  /s


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

Okay, I tried what I thought the OP was suggesting was possible and couldn't duplicate it on my machine. When I went back to the first channel the buffer only took me to the beginning of the program I was recording, not to the place in the show I had originally been watching before tuning to the second channel. 

As for the real issue of this thread: the value of DLB. Personally, the only time I miss it is during football season when I used DLB to switch back and forth between games and if in switching back to a game I see that I just missed a great play I could rewind in the buffer to see what I missed. But, honestly, I was surprised at how little I missed it last season. It would be nice to have it, but I wonder how many people - especially outside Dbstalk - really used it much at all. I wonder if this is the real reason DTV hasn't put much emphasis on adding it.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Steve said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, and please understand that I'm not trying to be inflammatory at all here.
> 
> Can't we easily simulate what you describe above by simply hitting the record button once while on each of the two tuners you are interested in? Yes, it requires an extra click or two, but it seems to me to be more than an acceptable work-around if you really need to track the progress of two games, e.g.
> 
> Is there some other subtle advantage to dual buffers that I'm missing? Or is it just that it's "automatic" and doesn't require the extra click or two of the remote? Just my .02.  /s


From post #18:

"I don't want to get into a debate over the differences between recording two programs at once and DLB, but there are problems with NOT having DLB. If my HDD has a limited amount of space left, I can't record that other program I want to 'buffer' without deleting some shows. This can occur VERY frequently especially because of how much space HD programming takes up. Also, I can't pause one recording and hit 'Live TV' or the down arrow to move to the other recording. I either have to go into the List and play the other 'buffer' to keep the pause point (VERY, VERY tedious) or hit the prev button and fast forward, rewind, etc. to the point I had been watching (again, tedious). You also have much more maintenance on the HDD with having to go into the List much more often to delete those 'buffered' programs once they end."

Those are just a few reasons why recording two shows at the same time doesn't / can't function in a similar manner to the DLB implemented by TiVo, Dish Network, etc.


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## MIJBFAN (May 27, 2007)

WOW what a change in this place! I found DBS in Oct 2006 when I got my HR20. I have lurked and learned ALOT! But when I first started learning here most posts were about how bad things were going for most people and how to fix it.
NOW it is changing over to what people would like their DVR to do.

It kinda tells me D* is doing something right but not everyone sees it.


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## davel (May 1, 2007)

shendley said:


> Okay, I tried what I thought the OP was suggesting was possible and couldn't duplicate it on my machine. When I went back to the first channel the buffer only took me to the beginning of the program I was recording, not to the place in the show I had originally been watching before tuning to the second channel.
> 
> As for the real issue of this thread: the value of DLB. Personally, the only time I miss it is during football season when I used DLB to switch back and forth between games and if in switching back to a game I see that I just missed a great play I could rewind in the buffer to see what I missed. But, honestly, I was surprised at how little I missed it last season. It would be nice to have it, but I wonder how many people - especially outside Dbstalk - really used it much at all. I wonder if this is the real reason DTV hasn't put much emphasis on adding it.


I thought so also but keep pushing rewind and it will change the color of the buffer of the buffer from green to red (or vise versa) and will continue past the beginning of the recording. Really it seems to me that all they have to do is NOT clear the buffer on when the channel is tuned to.

From a programming prospective, they clear the buffer and set it to the station because you could have changed from another station and clearing it when you start is just an easy way to make sure. All they need to do is add an "if" If buffer already active on channel then don't clear

I'll try to reproduce it a third time when I get home, but I'm pretty sure I am not off my rocker. I do have a X100 with the latest software if we are comparing apples to apples.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

lucky13 said:


> Definitely time to lock this thread.
> 
> Can we talk about Multi-Room Viewing instead?


If I can choose between the 2 features, Multi-room viewing is a no-brainer for me, even if DLB is no longer on the table.

MRV PLEASE!!!!


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## lflorack (Dec 16, 2006)

cuibap said:


> If I can choose between the 2 features, Multi-room viewing is a no-brainer for me, even if DLB is no longer on the table.
> 
> MRV PLEASE!!!!


+1


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> [...]If my HDD has a limited amount of space left, I can't record that other program I want to 'buffer' without deleting some shows. This can occur VERY frequently especially because of how much space HD programming takes up.


If you're drive doesn't have enough space for two recordings, how will it have enough space for two buffers? The buffers are kept on the drive, AFAIK. Something has to give.


> Also, I can't pause one recording and hit 'Live TV' or the down arrow to move to the other recording. I either have to go into the List and play the other 'buffer' to keep the pause point (VERY, VERY tedious) or hit the prev button and fast forward, rewind, etc. to the point I had been watching (again, tedious).


I just tuned to channel 72 and hit RECORD. I then tuned to channel 79 and hit RECORD. Now when I hit PREV, it has the same effect as hitting the down arrow on the HR10. It switches to the other buffer at the current point in time, just like on the HR10, IIRC. On the HR10, I remember having to RW to get back to the point I was at on the other tuner the last time I switched buffers.

And on the HR20, hitting RECORD again on either channel brings up a pop-up that offers me the option to stop the recording and delete the partial, something that was a multi-step, multi-screen process (and a real PITA) on the HR10.

Just my observations. /s


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

techntrek said:


> When the original could do it from day 1 (Tivo) AND it is such a major feature, all the knockoffs have no choice but to implement it or be considered "inferior".


For the record, TiVo did NOT have it from day 1. The first TiVo boxes that shipped with dual tuners had only one active tuner, and the second tuner was turned on after a software release.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

For those who want DLB ... have you considered how DirecTV would permit users to toggle tuners? I'm sure you're all thinking, just use the DOWN ARROW approach like TiVo uses. Maybe ... but there could be issues with doing that, too.

DirecTV has a lot to consider before implementing DLB: keeping the buffer in both tuners, handling trick-play and pauses on alternate buffers, handling recording conflicts when the buffer is paused on both tuners, etc.


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

I will take DLB only if it is 90 minutes each buffer. I have gotten used to the HR20 and no DLB it not that big of a deal plus you have work around as a way to deal with one buffer.


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## 4DThinker (Dec 17, 2006)

Just in case this has not already been said, consider how difficult it would be to implement. Not hard to buffer two channels you're jumping back and forth between I'll agree. But add in the fact that your HR20 may also be recording another channel. Now it's got to be able to write potentially 3 HD signals to the same hard drive at the same time. We know it can do two, although I'm not convinced it doesn't still have a few problems getting two HD channels recorded at the same time with no errors.

If they do ever implement dual live buffers I'll be extremely impressed. I suggest anyone desperate for that feature try getting their VISTA media center to write 3 HD shows to your hard drive at the same time. Assuming you succeed, how much processor do you think you'll have left to web search or word process?


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## O2BRich (Nov 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why is it not a priority? DirecTV has opted to make other features a priority based on the *THEIR* goals on what they want to do for *THEIR* service.


This is really the point. The problem is that their goals may or may not line up with what the majority of users want.

Take VOD for instance. I have VOD now. It is called record the video ahead of time then watch on demand. The same type of work around D* expects us to do for DLB.

I would much rather have DLB then VOD


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## UTVLamented (Oct 18, 2006)

Simple solution if you MUST have DLB's: hook TWO HR0's to the same TV and flip between them with your TV's INPUT button. As a bonus, you get double the recording capacity (and double the cost).

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Since SLB (Single Live Buffer) is only now getting close to working properly (current CE), how can we expect DLB to work properly?


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

davel said:


> I thought so also but keep pushing rewind and it will change the color of the buffer of the buffer from green to red (or vise versa) and will continue past the beginning of the recording. Really it seems to me that all they have to do is NOT clear the buffer on when the channel is tuned to.
> 
> From a programming prospective, they clear the buffer and set it to the station because you could have changed from another station and clearing it when you start is just an easy way to make sure. All they need to do is add an "if" If buffer already active on channel then don't clear
> 
> I'll try to reproduce it a third time when I get home, but I'm pretty sure I am not off my rocker. I do have a X100 with the latest software if we are comparing apples to apples.


I'll give it another try, but I hit the rewind button several times to try and take me through the beginning of program barrier and it didn't work. I've got a 700 running the latest CE software release, so it looks like we're not completely apples to apples.


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

JACKIEGAGA said:


> I will take DLB only if it is 90 minutes each buffer.


I'll second that. I've really grown to like the 90 minute buffer, especially in standby. I've had several times where I've turned on the machine, seen something on that I liked and was able to record all of it because of the 90 minute buffer. I would prefer that to DLB with 30 minute buffers as with the old Tivo.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

techntrek said:


> When the original could do it from day 1 (Tivo) AND it is such a major feature, all the knockoffs have no choice but to implement it or be considered "inferior".


I guess you weren't around for the first-generation DirecTiVo devices. The dual tuners were activated later via a software update (version 2.5).

So as much as we love the TiVo, remember, it wasn't perfect on day one either ....


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

dmurphy said:


> I guess you weren't around for the first-generation DirecTiVo devices. The dual tuners were activated later via a software update (version 2.5).


In time for the start of the NFL Season, actually the 2001 NFL Season because it hit the streets in Oct. 2000, but I remember the ribbing us D-TiVo users took from the UTV users on sat boards because it wasn't enabled from the git-go.


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## difficultrun (Feb 17, 2007)

Honestly, Earl I don't see why you get so fired up about people asking for this feature ... a feature that is important to a number of us. I don't see the same degree of hostility about people wondering when VOD will be available ... why not say "it's a recorder not a VOD device". I understand that the DVR is THEIR device, but I'm also THEIR customer and if I want something, I'll damn well ask them for it and continue to bug them until I get a reasonable answer to my questions.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

difficultrun said:


> Honestly, Earl I don't see why you get so fired up about people asking for this feature ... a feature that is important to a number of us. I don't see the same degree of hostility about people wondering when VOD will be available ... why not say "it's a recorder not a VOD device". I understand that the DVR is THEIR device, but I'm also THEIR customer and if I want something, I'll damn well ask them for it and continue to bug them until I get a reasonable answer to my questions.


He clearly got the direction from D* to discourage people from asking and therefore drop the feature. VOD to me is not going be good enough since I don't cable, just DSL with 1.5Mbps speed so I don't think it's going to be big. Another good feature is always a plus! This applies for everything...


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

shendley said:


> I'll second that. I've really grown to like the 90 minute buffer, especially in standby. I've had several times where I've turned on the machine, seen something on that I liked and was able to record all of it because of the 90 minute buffer. I would prefer that to DLB with 30 minute buffers as with the old Tivo.


*shendley:* If you do what I did in the second part of post #39, you can have two 90 minute buffers. Better than Tivo.

*everyone:* I'm really having a hard time understanding what all the DLB fuss is about. It can be easily simulated, at least the way it worked on the HR10. What am I missing? /s


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

and for those that want VOD, get netflix......sorry I couldnt resist! and pls everyone im kidding....


UTVLamented said:


> Simple solution if you MUST have DLB's: hook TWO HR0's to the same TV and flip between them with your TV's INPUT button. As a bonus, you get double the recording capacity (and double the cost).
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dmurphy said:


> I guess you weren't around for the first-generation DirecTiVo devices. The dual tuners were activated later via a software update (version 2.5).
> 
> So as much as we love the TiVo, remember, it wasn't perfect on day one either ....


Woa! I'm getting some serious deja vu here!





drew2k said:


> For the record, TiVo did NOT have it from day 1. The first TiVo boxes that shipped with dual tuners had only one active tuner, and the second tuner was turned on after a software release.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cuibap said:


> He clearly got the direction from D* to discourage people from asking and therefore drop the feature. VOD to me is not going be good enough since I don't cable, just DSL with 1.5Mbps speed so I don't think it's going to be big. Another good feature is always a plus! This applies for everything...


Oh clearly... that is what I am doing...
Thank you so much for pointing it out for me...
How could I have been so blind... to take the answer from DirecTV and give it back to you all..

I appriciate it... really do...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

difficultrun said:


> Honestly, Earl I don't see why you get so fired up about people asking for this feature ... a feature that is important to a number of us. I don't see the same degree of hostility about people wondering when VOD will be available ... why not say "it's a recorder not a VOD device". I understand that the DVR is THEIR device, but I'm also THEIR customer and if I want something, I'll damn well ask them for it and continue to bug them until I get a reasonable answer to my questions.


Then why do people get fired up when I post the answer, they don't want to hear?

God bless yah... continue to ask for it... I am not telling you to stop...
Call... write letters... more the power to yah....

People asked, so I asked... I got the answer... and I posted it...
Then people asked for an explanation... so I tried to explain it...

And then I added why I personally don't care about DLB... since everyone personally cares about having DLB... so why is my opinion about using the system as is... seen as an attack or discouragement about having DLB?


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Earls damned if he does and damn if he dont...i am extremely vociferous on this issue as everyone knows, but lets not shoot the messenger!!!!!!!!!! Earl will be happy for just about any feature added resulting from this site i would think...he doesnt have a personal stake which ones are or arent.

I ask him every couple of months to see where it is on D's, radar...hes kind enough to find out....

D reads theses posts, so as i want DLB, we should continue to be the squeeky wheel, but lets not spank the facilitator who gives us the platform to squeek.....rather we should remember to thank him.....


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## waynenm (Oct 31, 2006)

The fact that DLB was not included in the orginal HR-20 platform, and has not yet been enabled, is just plain dumb. It's not that big of a deal. It's a convenience, almost an afterthought function, accessible by normal remote use on any Tivo based DVR. However, it is a convenience that contributes to old Tivo users (like me) having unnecessary attitude about the HR-20. The fact is that it already exists in the HR-20, you just have to play games to get there. Games that make my wife want to keep using the Tivo. There are so many things the HR-20 does that are better than the Tivo OS. How freakin' hard would it be to just turn on Dual Live Buffers? After all that has been said all over DBSTalk about DLB, the question that remains for D* should not be "why?". It should be "why not?". What would it hurt? Is it a patented technology? What's up, D*?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Steve said:


> *shendley:* If you do what I did in the second part of post #39, you can have two 90 minute buffers. Better than Tivo.
> 
> *everyone:* I'm really having a hard time understanding what all the DLB fuss is about. It can be easily simulated, at least the way it worked on the HR10. What am I missing? /s


Steve, in your post #39, you seem to have missed the thrust of my example in my post:


Tom Robertson said:


> ....In my case, especially during Football season where I do not use a DVR to record, I use it to enhance the live. I anchor one tuner on the Packers and on the other tuner surf the rest of the games that have an impact on the Packers. (Frequently division foes, like Da Bears...)
> 
> On the HR20, recording the anchor tuner does not improve my live experience, it makes it worse. If I ever catch up to Live and flip away from the anchor channel, I have to restart the whole bloody playback! Talk about work around--way, way around.
> 
> Or I could flip back to the Packer game at live by tuning to their channel--but then I lose any buffering I might want on the other game. Sure, I suppose I could surf by constantly changing what is recording on the non-Packer channel, but who wants to clean up and manage lots and lots of partial recordings? *I thought the DVR was supposed to work for me?*  ...


The example workarounds are not really usable. I personally want to surf on the other tuner, not make 30-100 recordings that I have to clean up after a Sunday of games. Imagine that: stop on a channel, hit record, flip back to Packers, flip back to other recording. Boring. Stop recording. Move to another channel. Start another recording. Flip back to Packers... Then later in the day clean it all up... 

I suggest trying your example. Pick 6 channels of stuff. Set one as an anchor channel and record it. Then try to surf back and forth on the other 5. Make sure all are 6 hour HD programs as that is the time reserved for NFL (and watch your DVR delete lots of programs to make space for each recording your start...)

And now recall that somehow the HR10 did this the right way with a smaller CPU than the HR20. Another point: Dish network can do it with the same CPU/Video chips...

That all said, Steve, there is one point you make in all this. The HR20 obviously _can_ handle the load. Otherwise it would not do two recordings simultaneously. Therefore it should be able to handle two live buffers. All is takes is the software to do it.

Cheers,
Tom


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Okay: Straight answer:
> 
> At this point, they do not have an active plan to implement DLB.


Thank you, Earl. That's what 'I' wanted to know. I am not going to speak for anyone else but me. I asked for an answer in a roundabout way, and you gave it to me. Now my path is clear.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And then I added why I personally don't care about DLB...


Maybe you would like it and use it if the Cubs and White Sox didn't stink and you would actually want to watch both games at the same time.:nono2:


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## waynenm (Oct 31, 2006)

Agreed. Like I said. It's just kind of dumb. Should have been turned on a long time ago. A simple convenience.


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## wakajawaka (Sep 27, 2006)

Im so sick and tired of hearing about DLB. If its that important dont *****, switch.


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## waynenm (Oct 31, 2006)

To what, cable? No thanks. It is absolutely *not* that important.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

drew2k said:


> DirecTV has a lot to consider before implementing DLB: keeping the buffer in both tuners, handling trick-play and pauses on alternate buffers, handling recording conflicts when the buffer is paused on both tuners, etc.


Somehow most cable companies managed it with the Moto boxes.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Steve said:


> If you're drive doesn't have enough space for two recordings, how will it have enough space for two buffers? The buffers are kept on the drive, AFAIK. Something has to give.
> I just tuned to channel 72 and hit RECORD. I then tuned to channel 79 and hit RECORD. Now when I hit PREV, it has the same effect as hitting the down arrow on the HR10. It switches to the other buffer at the current point in time, just like on the HR10, IIRC. On the HR10, I remember having to RW to get back to the point I was at on the other tuner the last time I switched buffers.
> 
> And on the HR20, hitting RECORD again on either channel brings up a pop-up that offers me the option to stop the recording and delete the partial, something that was a multi-step, multi-screen process (and a real PITA) on the HR10.
> ...


To your first point, an extra 30, 60, or 90 minute buffer is MUCH different and consumes MUCH less space than trying to record a hockey game on channel 94 that 'runs' from 8pm to 2am (Ducks v. Sens game tonight, 5/30/07). I may lose 90 minutes or w/e the buffer would be from my HDD, but if I want to set the hockey game to record, based on your example, instead of using DLB it could potentially wipe-out shows on my HDD for the extra 4.5 HOURS beyond that buffer, just because I want to record that on a buffer and watch other shows at the 'same' time. Also, not all of the information entered in the program guide is correct so having that buffer would allow me to watch the game, flip tuners at commercials, and still have the game on that buffer and not lose any recordings.

To your second point, not true. You were able to hit the pause button on the HR10 prior to pressing the 'Live TV' button to switch tuners, hit the 'Live TV' button to return to that buffer and the buffer would have been at the exact same spot as it was when you hit the pause button prior to switching tuners.

Unfortunately, I wish the work-arounds were close to the feature available on the DirecTiVo's. It would appear that the box is capable of performing such a process and all it needs is the software to do so. That is why so many people on this board feel so strongly about this feature and why D* should evaluate whether it can be done. If it can't, please let us know the reasons why and if it can be done, will it be and what is the ETA?


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

wakajawaka said:


> Im so sick and tired about hearing about DLB. If its that important dont *****, switch.


Simple, don't click on the threads.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

raott said:


> Somehow most cable companies managed it with the Moto boxes.


Which makes it that much more unlikely that DLB will never be on this box. If D* hasn't implemented something cable was able to implement, more than likely it was not done for some other reason.


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## waynenm (Oct 31, 2006)

Hmm. With 2 HR-20s hooked up to the same TV, you'd have dual live buffers, and quad tuner recording capability. Obviously, many have already done this.
Spend more, get more. Want dual live buffers? Get 2 HR20s!


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

waynenm said:


> To what, cable? No thanks. It is absolutely *not* that important.


Then why so many rants?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mikek said:


> Maybe you would like it and use it if the Cubs and White Sox didn't stink and you would actually want to watch both games at the same time.:nono2:


A term I learned a LONG LONG LONG time ago: NAT
News At Ten

With 162 games a year times two.... even the die hardest of fans can't watch them all...


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## eatswodo (Nov 20, 2005)

drew2k said:


> Then why so many rants?


It's simple.

All your buffer are belong to us.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

waynenm said:


> The fact that DLB was not included in the orginal HR-20 platform, and has not yet been enabled, is just plain dumb. It's not that big of a deal.


Really? Have you seen the source code?

Here's what I wrote earlier:


drew2k said:


> For those who want DLB ... have you considered how DirecTV would permit users to toggle tuners? I'm sure you're all thinking, just use the DOWN ARROW approach like TiVo uses. Maybe ... but there could be issues with doing that, too.
> 
> DirecTV has a lot to consider before implementing DLB: keeping the buffer in both tuners, handling trick-play and pauses on alternate buffers, handling recording conflicts when the buffer is paused on both tuners, etc.


You also have to plan how the PREV key will be used when switching tuners and channels.

On top of that, now consider this one: Tuner 1 is on Channel 4 and Tuner 2 is on channel 7. You paused both tuners, with Tuner 1 currently on-creen. You now decide to start pressing Channel up from 4. Next channel is 5, and then 7. What does the DVR do when it reaches 7? Does it swap tuners, because tuner 2 was already on channel 7? If so, does it keep it paused? Does it skip OVER channel 7 on this tuner?

Not that big of a deal? Please ...


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

raott said:


> Somehow most cable companies managed it with the Moto boxes.


Most? Why not all?


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## waynenm (Oct 31, 2006)

I'll stop ranting. Moving on..


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## waynenm (Oct 31, 2006)

drew2k said:


> Really? Have you seen the source code?
> 
> Here's what I wrote earlier:
> 
> ...


Alright. Even though I've officially stopped ranting, I have to say this (and Drew, I say it as a Long Island native, who grew up in East Meadow): The Tivo scenario has no pausing, and no swapping as required actions. It's an embedded function, enabling a simple jump between active tuners. You simply jump between 'em. If you want to pause one, or record one, fine, you can. Since D* has already enabled dual-tuner recording, it seems logical that jumping between two active tuners with live buffers would be a fairly simple step. Other functions would follow. Also, I run a company that does a ton of programming and design work, so I have a bit of first hand familiarity with how hard it is to do these kinds of interfaces. It really is no big deal. Given what D* does on every CE download, and given the existing framework, enabling DLB on the HR-20 is something that I believe is quite do-able. Honestly, I'm thinking there's a software ownership issue that D* hasn't quite figured out how to jump over. Be that as it may, my ranting is officially over!


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

drew2k said:


> Really? Have you seen the source code?
> 
> Here's what I wrote earlier:
> 
> ...


golly gee, must be really hard then. Makes me wonder how Tivo managed it with a smaller CPU 6 years ago. They must have used magic or supercomputers or something.... 

Drew2k, methinks you're making it sound a lot harder than it really is. Yes, some questions need to be asked and answered, but those questions have been answered historically.

Lets go thru your list:
Prev: go back to the most recent thing done (just as it does now). If it were a tuner flop, flop back. If a channel change, change back. If a menu... you get the picture.
stepping thru the channels: Why make it hard? Do what the Tivos do. Flip to 7, then flip back (thereby skipping 7 on the one tuner.)

From other "It can't because of how would it handle this case lists":
A recording needs to start: Ok, start the recording, can't argue that--and the Tivo doesn't either.
VOD: So what? that is just yet another incoming stream or tuner (HR20 has 3 satellite tuners anyway). If the HR20 is actually starting to overload with well written and tightened code, then I guess the HR20 will have to drop the VOD or the DLB for the moment. Just ask the user! 
Trickplay: Um...again, TiVo, replay, ultimate, Moxi, Moto, Vip622 programmers managed to handle these issues. These seem like paper-tiger arguments, not real problems.

In some ways the HR20 is advancing the state of the art. But it doesn't have to by compromising backward.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> golly gee, must be really hard then. Makes me wonder how Tivo managed it with a smaller CPU 6 years ago. They must have used magic or supercomputers or something....
> 
> Drew2k, methinks you're making it sound a lot harder than it really is. Yes, some questions need to be asked and answered, but those questions have been answered historically.


Everyone can use TiVo as a model, but TiVo* was DESIGNED with dual-tuners and dual-buffers in mind. I don't know if the HR20 was ... The questions have been asked and answered, but was the HR20 code initially designed around dual buffers, and they decided to only support a single buffer before rollout? Or was it never even considered to support DLB? If that's the case, DirecTV has to extensively rewrite their existing code ... that's my point. It's easy to say what it *should* do, it's much harder to make it actually *do* it...

*I of course am talking about the initial dual-tuner DirecTiVo.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

drew2k said:


> Most? Why not all?


Don't know and don't care, I just know that the Moto boxes can do it, Dish does it and the D*Tivo's do it.

If extensive coding is the issue because D* didn't plan for it in their design, that IMO is even worse because they didn't bother to do their homework up front.

The advice of your not watching TV right, need to record everything, doesn't help either because D* decided to also put hard limits in ---let's not have DLB's, we'll make you have to record everything if you want to flip back and forth, but oh by the way, we're also going to put a hard limit on how many things you can set up to record.

With just a few daily kids shows, and a few shows of mine, my to-do list stays at or near 100 constantly.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

Listen y'all. Earl has already TOLD us. Directv doesn't CARE if we want DLB or NOT ( my words not his,btw). They aren't planning it. So if you want it, be prepared to go somewhere else. Anywhere else, they ALL have it, take your pick. :nono:

Its done. We're not going to get it.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

1. The HR20 right now today has Dual Buffers
2. The HR20 right now today has Dual Tuners
3. Both Dual Buffers can be live at the same time.

*∴ The HR20 has Dual Live Buffers*

The Tips and Tricks give mtnagel's steps for setting up your HR20 DLB's. It is almost funny how many steps it takes. But once you are set up you press PREV to toggle back and forth.

Kludgey as it is, you are in fact toggling between the *HR20's Dual Live Buffers.*

So right now, today, the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers.

One suggestion some time ago was just to take those steps to set up DLB as a macro and assign it to the down arrow during live TV. Use the Up Arrow as the cleanup button to delete the two buffers you are recording when you are done.

It is not that it can't do DLB. It can and does. If you have ever recorded two shows at once while watching them, you have used the HR20's DLB feature.

They just need Matt's keystrokes as a macro so that it could be easily turned on.

I also want to say this. I have no dog in this fight. I don't understand why anyone would buy a D12 when they could probably get an additional HR20 for $199.

For me, DLB is like dumbing down your DVR to be not much more than two D12's.

I have tried DLB on my TiVo many times. I do not want to spasticly switch back and forth. The whole point of a DVR is that it is a Digital Video _Recorder_. We never watch anything live any more.

The question: "Will the HR20 ever have DLB?" was answered the day it shipped. Yes.

The real question is: "Will D* simplify the steps needed to use DLB?"

The CIR bug could be fixed in the HR20 with a missing filter. They did the other 50 filters you never use. The impossibly hard Setup menus can be fixed with Dynamic Numeric Links.

And DLB is just a user interface problem.

- Craig


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

stogie5150 said:


> Listen y'all. Earl has already TOLD us. Directv doesn't CARE if we want DLB or NOT ( my words not his,btw). They aren't planning it. So if you want it, be prepared to go somewhere else. Anywhere else, they ALL have it, take your pick. :nono:
> 
> Its done. We're not going to get it.


Thank you for re-wording my statement incorrectly...

I stated that they they don't have it as an active development feature...
I never stated they don't *CARE*...
I also didn't state that they are not planning on it.

So... if you are going to reference to what *I* said, please do so correctly.

If you want to interpret it that way... So be it.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> Which makes it that much more unlikely that DLB will never be on this box. If D* hasn't implemented something cable was able to implement, more than likely it was not done for some other reason.


could be because they know they are not competent to figure it out... Seems to me like they are the 2nd class coders


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

drew2k said:


> Really? Have you seen the source code?
> 
> Here's what I wrote earlier:
> 
> ...


The point is if some other companies can do it, why can't they? Are these codes actually come from CA or India? Why don't they hire some programmers that make it work?


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

BMoreRavens said:


> I agree. I want MRV. If we get DLB great but don't really care.


I think a discussion of MRV is good -- but let's put it in a thread with that title.

Otherwise, :backtotop


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## morbid_fun (Jan 16, 2007)

cuibap said:


> The point is if some other companies can do it, why can't they? Are these codes actually come from CA or India? Why don't they hire some programmers that make it work?


No one says that DirecTV can not. You obviously have not read any of Earl's or the other poster's statements on this.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> For me, DLB is like dumbing down your DVR to be not much more than two D12's.
> 
> I have tried DLB on my TiVo many times. I do not want to spasticly switch back and forth. The whole point of a DVR is that it is a Digital Video _Recorder_. We never watch anything live any more.


AGAIN, just because you don't use the feature or see its value doesn't mean that other users don't. The fact that 75% of the people that have voted in the DLB poll feel this is a must have feature, is a strong signal to me that indicates MANY people watch live or semi-live TV. And as I said to Earl earlier, a DVR is for timeshifting a program, not just recording. The buffers on the DVR play a vital role in that timeshifting process.


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## dervari (Dec 1, 2005)

garywitt said:


> I think we need more DLB threads. More DLB posts. More emails to DirecTV regarding DLB until they realize how important it is to their customers.


It's not important to me. I couldn't care less. :cheers2:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> The fact that 75% of the people that have voted in the DLB poll feel this is a must have feature, is a strong signal to me that indicates MANY people watch live or semi-live TV.


The flaw with this is there is no way to count those that didn't even bother to vote, as they cared so little about it, that they didn't even click on the thread.
I know of at least one..me


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Why can't we all







and







?


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> And DLB is just a user interface problem.


Well, actually it's a programming and UI problem. But that's it -- just the software. The hardware is already capable as you can record two shows at once proved. So come on, D*, make some code changes and do it. Those that don't use it won't even be aware of it, and those of us that want it will be satisfied.

Well, then they can get to work on problem #2 -- CIR.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

im curious then why you take the time to ead a DLB post...


dervari said:


> It's not important to me. I couldn't care less. :cheers2:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ATARI said:


> Well, then they can get to work on problem #2 -- CIR.


If you have seen my posts regarding CIR... it has nothing to do with the software on the HR20..

And they are working on getting the final pieces resoved so CIR can be re-enabled.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

VOS you are experienced enough of a poster to know many read posts and discuss issues that they may not be passionate abut, and would then vote on DLB.

Case in point. You. you dont care about the issue. but you are reading, even commenting, on this thread. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

So i do think the poll has some validity.....



veryoldschool said:


> The flaw with this is there is no way to count those that didn't even bother to vote, as they cared so little about it, that they didn't even click on the thread.
> I know of at least one..me


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

jheda said:


> Wow, a DLB thread where neither Jaywdetroit or I have chimed in in favor of, what a pleasure....
> 
> and the exact purpose of this site is to Debate these issues, so to lock a thread such as this is illogical; it will die its own death with lack of interest....


Well - Frankly (and much to Jeremy's pleasure) I have indeed thrown in the towel on this argument. There is nothing left to argue. The fact that a VAST majority of users want this feature is clear to the coders at this point. (whether or not its clear to D* management is another question).

My opinion of D* is altered because I know they hear us, and it's obvious they don't care.

At this point I would compare arguing for DLB to D*; to arguing with Big Oil to lower gas prices. "Yeah Yeah, we here you little consumer, now pay the piper and run along."

As long as the HD Tivo is 800 bucks - D* has no reason to implement this feature. The real question is, why does one have to pay that kind of coin, to get that feature in HD?

All of you out there who want this feature on D* system in HD, you are going to have to be willing to be the ones who leave when Comcast TIVO comes out to send a message to D* where it counts. Otherwise - there will never be any incentive for them to add the feature.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> My opinion of D* is altered because I know they hear us, and it's obvious they don't care.


I know it is your opinion... but it is not "fair" to say they "don't care"...
Because that simply is not true.

They read these threads... they hash over the wish list... and they have made direct changes based on *YOUR* feedback...

Hell... they even named back door feature turn on some of those things, after you all.

So to say they "don't care" is not fair.

Just because they have opted not to implement DLB....
Or have not put it on the active feature development list....

Doesn't mean they don't care....

For 18 months (since the R15's release), I have plenty of people state their is going to be mass exidous.... all of you have had your HR20's for a while now without DLB...

The COMCAST TiVo DVR is still no where to be found, over 2 years after announcement. And the only rumored date is that maybe one city may see it in August.... how many people are going to stick around waiting for that new technology, when DirecTV starts to light up all the new HD channels in Sept/Oct...

I know some of you are very passionate about having DLB so you can watch two things at once... And to you all... keep calling, writing and posting


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...
> 
> Hell... they even named back door feature turn on some of those things, after you all.
> 
> ...


I think what D* is doing with the "Edge Cutters" is phenomenal. It goes way beyond what any other company has done with this type of technology. However, I think it also serves their needs rather well. I really don't think they are doing this to be benevolent. DLB is still one of the top requested features. -Ignoring the user base with non committal is really irresponsible imho.

I haven't jumped ship yet. The HR20 is getting better every month. It's a great piece of technology. But I really believe that...

*The HR20 without DLB is like a brand new car that only comes with an AM radio. *

Sure it works as advertised, but what fun is it cruising Woodward without Arthur P barking in the background?


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## NYHeel (Aug 21, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I also want to say this. I have no dog in this fight. I don't understand why anyone would buy a D12 when they could probably get an additional HR20 for $199.
> 
> For me, DLB is like dumbing down your DVR to be not much more than two D12's.
> 
> ...


Here's a good example of DLB use on my Hr10 last night. I turn the TV on to the Mets game to watch it for a little bit. As Earl said there are 162 of them so I'm not going to watch the whole game but I want a tuner on there. I usually want the other free tuner on ESPN so I can watch whatever is on there during a commercial. Whether it's a sportscenter or baseball tonight or a game. I'm not going to record the whole nights worth of stuff. I hate watching commercials I don't ever want to do that. DLB lets me avoid that.

I watch all real TV shows time shifted. However my sports watching or sports realted watching when I'm just sitting around and for whatever reason I don't want to watch a recorded show is often live. By default I now always set up my 2 buffers on whichever channels I see fit as soon as I turn on the TV. Basically, Tivo changed the way I watch TV completely. The Hr20 has continued that but taken a small step back.

A little off topic but since you mentioned it, I want to replace my Hr10 with the Hr20 (I want SNY HD for the Mets games) and Directv won't give it to me for less than $300. I have my bills on autopay, have been a customer for about 5 years, spend about $80 a month, and order about 2-3 sports packages a year. They claim that since they gave me a $200 credit to get my first Hr20 (that was back in December for a new HDTV) from Best Buy (net cost $100) and then gave me credits when their installers missed 2 appointments in a row, they've given me too many credits so I'm out of luck. Then there's the fact that I paid $200 for the Hr10 1.5 years ago and was told that I could get it replaced to the new model receiver at no cost. Heck I'm still in the commitment period from that Hr10 and they won't replace when they themselves are making it obsolete. That's garbage. They wouldn't even give me a penny off on it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> *The HR20 without DLB is like a brand new car that only comes with an AM radio. *


I think it is more like getting a new car that has a single CD player, vs a multiple disc player.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jheda said:


> VOS you are experienced enough of a poster to know many read posts and discuss issues that they may not be passionate abut, and would then vote on DLB.
> 
> Case in point. You. you dont care about the issue. but you are reading, even commenting, on this thread. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
> 
> So i do think the poll has some validity.....


"some validity" I will agree with. What I was commenting on was the poster's "flaw" [which was my real point]. Nobody really knows what the percentage is. It's very much like asking four people a question and getting three to give one answer & then say three quarters of everybody wants "X".

I'm not against DLB. I haven't had it so I don't know what I'm missing [therefore I didn't vote]. I also don't watch [or try to] two shows at once. Does this mean everybody should use it "my way"? of course not. The good old "YMMV" applies.

If you're trying to promote an idea, it helps to "be realistic" with your pitch. Unsubstantiated claims don't help one's position. Also beating something to death doesn't either. Well this is my opinion and everybody has theirs.
A factual discussion will win more over than emotional ranting.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I think it is more like getting a new car that has a single CD player, vs a multiple disc player.


nahhhh- DLB/FM Radio are KEY features which drastically alter the enjoyment one can have using the product.  Neither is required for the product to function, but both should be included without asking.


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## gabe23 (Mar 7, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "some validity" I will agree with. What I was commenting on was the poster's "flaw" [which was my real point]. Nobody really knows what the percentage is. It's very much like asking four people a question and getting three to give one answer & then say three quarters of everybody wants "X".
> 
> I'm not against DLB. I haven't had it so I don't know what I'm missing [therefore I didn't vote]. I also don't watch [or try to] two shows at once. Does this mean everybody should use it "my way"? of course not. The good old "YMMV" applies.
> 
> ...


Well, to be fair VOS, the exact comment was:



tiger2005 said:


> AGAIN, just because you don't use the feature or see its value doesn't mean that other users don't. The fact that 75% of the people that have voted in the DLB poll feel this is a must have feature, is a strong signal to me that indicates MANY people watch live or semi-live TV. And as I said to Earl earlier, a DVR is for timeshifting a program, not just recording. The buffers on the DVR play a vital role in that timeshifting process.


tiger2005 never said that 75% of ALL HR20 users want DLB, but you seem to have read it that way. It is completely true that 75% _*who have voted in the poll *_want DLB, and at last count that was over 1200 users. Now maybe that's not "MANY people" in your opinion, but to try an say this was an "unsubstantiated claim" or "emotional ranting" is plain wrong. Am I missing something here?

I'm definately in the pro-DLB camp, though not a crusader by any means. But I guess I just don't understand when people admittedly don't care about a feature, but they feel the need to attack others that do want it. Seems to happen all the time around here.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Well said Gabe. Another DLB ex last night....watching the yankee game and in the Directtivo days, in between innings, i would catch up with NHL finals. With ease. What a pleasure. Its live tv. Its what i love. And I love my hr20. But as Earl said, i want my multiCD player.

n


gabe23 said:


> Well, to be fair VOS, the exact comment was:
> 
> tiger2005 never said that 75% of ALL HR20 users want DLB, but you seem to have read it that way. It is completely true that 75% _*who have voted in the poll *_want DLB, and at last count that was over 1200 users. Now maybe that's not "MANY people" in your opinion, but to try an say this was an "unsubstantiated claim" or "emotional ranting" is plain wrong. Am I missing something here?
> 
> I'm definately in the pro-DLB camp, though not a crusader by any means. But I guess I just don't understand when people admittedly don't care about a feature, but they feel the need to attack others that do want it. Seems to happen all the time around here.


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## Nofences (Jan 12, 2007)

DLB is a nice feature, but really, aren't there more important things that you would rather see on the HR20 than DLB (which can already be done, although not as simply as on a Tivo). Here are the 5 things I would rather see D* implement on my HR20.

*1. 150 HD Channels* - While I realize this isnt a function or feature of the HR20 hardware, I think I would rather D* put their financial resources towards a feature they have been promising for months and still havent delivered before they spent a single red cent on DLB (something that was never promised). Because honestly, it all comes down to the dollar, spend it wisely D*.

*2. MRV* - This (in my mind) is the single most advantageous software upgrade they could do to the HR20. If you could transfer programs from one DVR to another in a different room, you wouldnt have to set up a season pass for every program on every DVR, or conversely, if your HR20 were to crash during a recording, you could transfer that show from another room (assuming you recorded it) and watch it where ever you want. Which leads me to my next point.

*3. VOD *- I suppose this one kind of negates MRV in a way, since you could theoretically just download the show you wanted to watch, rather than transfer it from another room, but... I somehow doubt that D* plans to offer "every" program their viewers are interested in via VOD. I also wonder if VOD programs will be available in HD, I know they arent on some other providers. So while this is a definate benefit, it isn't as good as MRV.

*4. DivX/XviD Video Streaming* - We all know that D* intends to allow us to stream video to the HR20 (at least we assume that is why the video option appears on networked units). I have often wondered what codecs they will support for video streaming. I sincerely hope they intend to support DivX and/or XviD as they are the predominate codec for movies you can "purchase" or download off the net. With all the stand alone DivX DVD players available it seems like an obvious choice, but again, it is all about the dollar and sometimes the obvious choice isnt the most lucrative one.

*5. A color other than Silver* - Again, this is not a software feature (but that is why I worded the article title as I did) but lets be honest, I am buying a high dollar piece of electronic equipment, it seems reasonable that I should get to pick a color to match the rest of my equipment. I wouldnt go shopping at any car lot that only sold white cars! I currently own an HR20-100b, but I had to get it on eBay. I paid more than MSRP so that I could get one that matched the rest of my A/V equipment. I can't imagine it was any more expensive to produce than the silver model and asthetics are important to a lot of people (more important than DLB to some).

So there it is, my top 5, feel free to flame me for my choices, but in the end they are mine to make.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

only the 150 HD's are more impt than DLB to me right now, but thats why i like brunettes and others blondes (come to think of it, i dont mind blondes)



Nofences said:


> DLB is a nice feature, but really, aren't there more important things that you would rather see on the HR20 than DLB (which can already be done, although not as simply as on a Tivo). Here are the 5 things I would rather see D* implement on my HR20.
> 
> *1. 150 HD Channels* - While I realize this isnt a function or feature of the HR20 hardware, I think I would rather D* put their financial resources towards a feature they have been promising for months and still havent delivered before they spent a single red cent on DLB (something that was never promised). Because honestly, it all comes down to the dollar, spend it wisely D*.
> 
> ...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

gabe23 said:


> Well, to be fair VOS, the exact comment was:
> tiger2005 never said that 75% of ALL HR20 users want DLB, but you seem to have read it that way. It is completely true that 75% _*who have voted in the poll *_want DLB, and at last count that was over 1200 users. Now maybe that's not "MANY people" in your opinion, but to try an say this was an "unsubstantiated claim" or "emotional ranting" is plain wrong. Am I missing something here?
> I'm definately in the pro-DLB camp, though not a crusader by any means. But I guess I just don't understand when people admittedly don't care about a feature, but they feel the need to attack others that do want it. Seems to happen all the time around here.


I like fairness. I saw the "many" & maybe just "cherry picked" the 75%.
After that my comments move away from the OP and to this topic "in general".
We had 1000 downloads of the recent CE, does that show a majority of users?
I'm not against DLB, but more the lack of factual reasoning in a long standing issue.
After while one just goes numb...
VOD is a big thing to some, right now. It's another thing I doubt I'd use much, but others feel they NEED it.
I like good informed discussion, whether I feel I would use the feature or not.
And on the other side are the ones that seems to start with " "My TiVO....", for which the "common" response seems to be "this ain't a TiVO", so get over it.

Sorry for my rant...


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

Nofences said:


> DLB is a nice feature, but really, aren't there more important things that you would rather see on the HR20 than DLB (which can already be done, although not as simply as on a Tivo). Here are the 5 things I would rather see D* implement on my HR20.
> 
> *1. 150 HD Channels* - While I realize this isnt a function or feature of the HR20 hardware, I think I would rather D* put their financial resources towards a feature they have been promising for months and still havent delivered before they spent a single red cent on DLB (something that was never promised). Because honestly, it all comes down to the dollar, spend it wisely D*.
> 
> ...


I agree with the first 3. The other 2 I don't care about and I don't really care about DLB that much. would be nice to have but I can live without it.


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## Nofences (Jan 12, 2007)

jheda said:


> thats why i like brunettes and others blondes (come to think of it, i dont mind blondes)


Finally, something we all can agree on...
:icon_peac


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Campers....

That point is not that some off us don't care about DLB, and we would like X,Y,Z.

It is okay... seriously... that some people want it.

*IF* DLB comes as a sacrafice to some other feature, (either future planned, or existing)... well then we can get into the debate about I would rather have X,Y,Z other then DLB.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Campers....
> 
> That point is not that some off us don't care about DLB, and we would like X,Y,Z.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. BUT if D* doesn't put DLB on the list of feature and time frame, that only means that they don't care, no matter how put put it...


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Excellent point Earl.

When we reach that junction, we can poll and debate. D* has an amazing pool of voices of different backgrounds, interests and economics here.. I think D* would be well served to reach a crossroads in their mapping one day and toss it at us..."would u rather resources go to A (DLB?) or B (MRV< etc.). Of course its thier company, and they would be the final arbitor.

BTW, I care about VOD, MRV, and other feautures. I have no personal use for captions but all know how i voiced that needed to be worked on *before *DLB.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Campers....
> 
> That point is not that some off us don't care about DLB, and we would like X,Y,Z.
> 
> ...


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I think one other point needs to be made about why DirecTV may not have DLB on their current development plan: Their business model and the development costs. We know this year they are ambitiously rolling out new HD channels. They are rolling out VOD. They are rolling out a new GUI. They are rolling out fixes to the CIR problem. They are still supporting multiple brands of DVRs and non-DVR receivers. They had to deal with the change to DST this year. Resources have to be analyzed and allocated. Schedules have to be analyzed. Testing plans. Support plans. Etc. All of these things were on their schedule probably two years ago. 

Then the HR20 rolled out, and users clamored for DLB. We only know what we see in software releases and what Earl is privileged to know and is permitted to share with us. How do we know it won't be on their development schedule for next year?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I think it is more like getting a new car that has a single CD player, vs a multiple disc player.


Sorry, Earl, but lets at least keep the analogy honest.  Very nearly every car these days has at least an AM radio (and only the most cheap only have AM). Most have AM/FM. A bunch have CD players. And some have multi-cd players.

From what I gather here, very nearly every DVR has at least a single live buffer.  Most have DLB. From what I gather here there are two models of DVR sold/leased/rented/available conspicuously missing DLB. Both by DIRECTV, btw... This is not CD vs. Multi-cd, as the analogy doesn't hold. This is AM vs. AM with anything else.

Cheers,
Tom


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## jahgreen (Dec 15, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> Well - Frankly (and much to Jeremy's pleasure) I have indeed thrown in the towel on this argument. There is nothing left to argue. The fact that a VAST majority of users want this feature is clear to the coders at this point.


This claim is the only part of this thread I don't get.

How do we know "a vast majority" of users want DLB? We know a vast majority of those who voted in the poll here want DLB, but that's a different matter entirely. It doesn't tell us anything about the percentage of members of DBSTalk who want DLB, much less the number of HR20 users. The selection bias in the poll is overwhelming. Only a random poll of HR20 users, with a sufficient sample to provide a statistically significant result, would let us know how many HR20 users want DLB. Does anyone know of such a statistically valid test?

I'm still willing to bet that a majority--maybe not a vast majority--of DirecTivo users didn't know about DLB and that a majority of HR20 users don't know about DLB.

Having said all that, I'd LIKE to have DLB, but I'd rather they iron out the bugs in the existing functions first.

P.S. to jaywdetroit--do you all still cruise Woodward? I haven't been back to Detroit much since leaving for college way back in 1972, but I still root for the Tigers and Pistons and Red Wings. I've pretty much given up on the Lions. When are they going to fire Millen?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jahgreen said:


> I'm still willing to bet that a majority--maybe not a vast majority--of DirecTivo users didn't know about DLB and that a majority of HR20 users don't know about DLB.


Ya, if you never had DLB, you might not think to ask for it. (As an early DirecTivo user, I couldn't wait for the second tuner to be activated, but for recording purposes, not for LIVE TV DLB functionality.) But if you're a DIRECTIVO/DISH/MOTOROLA DVR convert, then you have experienced Live TV DLB functionality and could very well miss it. /s


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

So you want D* to rush to get DLBs into the box possibly risking the stability they have gained in the last 6 months or so to please a bunch of impatient sports fans? One of the reasons I feel that the box was released when it was was due to people screaming for them to release it in the 1st place. The customers seem to be pushing them into a no win situation, I want it yesterday, AND i want it to be perfect. usually mutually exclusive.

A little patience goes a long way. I see very little shown here.


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## KSbugeater (Feb 17, 2005)

Having both an HR10 and an HR20 in my system, I get the best of both worlds: DLB on the 10 and 90 min buffer on the 20. (Actually, 2 weeks ago I paused ESPN at the beginning of the early playoff game, and it was still paused when I got home in the middle of the 2nd playoff game, 4 hours later. I caught up to live by skipping and FF and NEVER MISSED A SECOND, even though my free space was supposedly less than 10%, and it never "officially" recorded. How does that buffer work???)

I'm with the crowd that says DLB changes the live watching experience. It is SO easy to flip back and forth among MORE THAN 2 stations using DLB, and it leaves no mess in the Now Playing List. In fact, even if I'm watching pre-recorded material, I'm usually conscious of what stations my buffers are on so that when I'm done, I might catch a "live TV nugget" like a home run or a TD. As I hinted earlier, my HD is almost always near full, so I can't afford (space-wise) recording 2 3-hour HD games/movies/concerts, but I can easily watch both in the same time span without recording -- only with DLB. I plan to keep both boxes until D* gives me DLB in another format.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

I missed DLB very much when I switched from HR10 to HR20 last September. I am one of those that watch live TV with my DVR so I care about DLB. If someone ask me if I want DLB, the answer is undoubtedly yes. The question is only interesting when we get to the "at what cost" part.

If given the choice, I'd like to see MRV, remote setting through internet, and VOD before DLB as a consumer. I want MRV so bad that it is the only feature I don't mind paying them extra money for. DLB won't be a factor for me to switch, but when FIOS extends MRV to support HD, it will become very tempting. But my guess is D* sees it differently. I suspect VOD is at or near the top of their list. I have no idea how they see MRV. Where is the MRV thread?

I take Earl's answer positively. Remember how long HR10 users asked for the software update (6.2?, I don't remember the version numbers any more)? D* still got to it eventually. As long as they don't reject it, I am hopeful.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

BTW, I have to give props to original OP for coming up with the most tempting thread title. I do care about DLB but not so strongly to follow every DLB thread. But this one is golden. Great thinking.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Sorry, but that is a mischaracterization. Most of us have been VERY patient in D getting stability first and DLB and other features later. I have now watched My Hr20 stabalize for 9 months without crying out for DLB...but i think it is time it be look at being placed somewhere on the radar...



CCarncross said:


> So you want D* to rush to get DLBs into the box possibly risking the stability they have gained in the last 6 months or so to please a bunch of impatient sports fans? One of the reasons I feel that the box was released when it was was due to people screaming for them to release it in the 1st place. The customers seem to be pushing them into a no win situation, I want it yesterday, AND i want it to be perfect. usually mutually exclusive.
> 
> A little patience goes a long way. I see very little shown here.


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## Nofences (Jan 12, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Campers....
> 
> That point is not that some off us don't care about DLB, and we would like X,Y,Z.
> 
> ...


Sorry Earl, I wasn't trying to make this an X instead of Y conversation, just wanted to point out that there are bigger fish to fry (IMHO). A lot of people getting very heated about DLB when there are a lot of issues that a lot of people might find more important. I agree with you, DLB is a nice feature (if you are using both SAT tuners) but there are things I hope D* is putting more effort towards.

Sorry for pushing off topic.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Couple of thoughts:

I am not saying the programming effort itself is trivial nor easy. I've said before, but it deserves repeating: Embedded programming is, IMHO, among the hardest programming there is. The tools for debugging, profiling, and testing are both very expensive and not as fully featured in embedded environments. 

Therefore, finding all the problems that have led to the stability of late was very hard work. The guys/gals have done good!

So I'm also not asking that DLB be done tomorrow. Next Friday's CE would be soon enough.  Just Kidding!! I do not know if there will be a CE this Friday or next Friday. Nor do I expect DLB in June. June is GUI/VOD. 

What I am asking for is a clear statement "We hear you, we will try." Or what my bosses always asked me to state, "It will be done." The more often I said that, the more my income increased. Before I learned that, the times I whined about "but, but, but....(and it did not matter that I was right or not)" my income stopped increasing...

So that is my challenge. Commit. (And follow thru someday.) I know it isn't a trivial task, just a doable one. (And I know the programmers are bright/creative/good enough to "Make it so.") 

Cheers,
Tom


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Thank you for re-wording my statement incorrectly...
> 
> I stated that they they don't have it as an active development feature...
> I never stated they don't *CARE*...
> ...





stogie5150 said:


> Listen y'all. Earl has already TOLD us. Directv doesn't CARE if we want DLB or NOT * ( my words not his,btw)*. They aren't planning it. So if you want it, be prepared to go somewhere else. Anywhere else, they ALL have it, take your pick. :nono:
> 
> Its done. We're not going to get it.


That post was NOT mean to impune you as a person in any way. Directv makes the decisions, and you share what you can with us. For that I thank you. Please accept my apologies. 

I made sure it said in my post that it was MY interpretation, not yours. I call it like I see it, you said that DLB was not in "active development". I read that to mean D* doesn't care what we want. Which is FINE. They have that right. They asked what we wanted, last time I cared to look DLB was NUMBER THREE most wanted feature. Yet D* isn't currently working on it. 

Maybe they're working on fixing the HD-Lite instead. :lol:

Me personally, I wanted SOMEONE to tell me it wasn't coming so I could stop fretting about it. Earl, you did that. Thank You. The fact that it isn't under development speaks volumes about its future.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

+1



Tom Robertson said:


> Couple of thoughts:
> 
> I am not saying the programming effort itself is trivial nor easy. I've said before, but it deserves repeating: Embedded programming is, IMHO, among the hardest programming there is. The tools for debugging, profiling, and testing are both very expensive and not as fully featured in embedded environments.
> 
> ...


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

I'm sorry but anybody that puts DLB ahead of MRV has never used MRV. I've had it for a couple of years on my DirecTiVos and it has made as big an impact on my TV viewing as DVRs did in the first place. I use MRV nearly EVERY day. I use DLB perhaps a couple of times a month.


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## cnmsales (Jan 9, 2007)

I would LOVE MRV and more so than DLB and I am a big fan of DLB.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

jahgreen said:


> This claim is the only part of this thread I don't get.
> 
> How do we know "a vast majority" of users want DLB? We know a vast majority of those who voted in the poll here want DLB, but that's a different matter entirely. It doesn't tell us anything about the percentage of members of DBSTalk who want DLB, much less the number of HR20 users. The selection bias in the poll is overwhelming. Only a random poll of HR20 users, with a sufficient sample to provide a statistically significant result, would let us know how many HR20 users want DLB. Does anyone know of such a statistically valid test?
> 
> ...


Part of the problem is that those users who use the feature, but don't chat on DBSTalk, would not know what you were talking about if you said "DLB". I would suspect there is a large number of users that would use and want this feature. But I wouldn't expect them to answer any polls about it.

(As for Woodward, there is a huge Classic Car cruise once a year now days. People come from all over and jam it up from Pontiac to 8 mile. But do they cruise it in an American Graffiti sense? no.)


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Titan25 said:


> I'm sorry but anybody that puts DLB ahead of MRV has never used MRV. I've had it for a couple of years on my DirecTiVos and it has made as big an impact on my TV viewing as DVRs did in the first place. I use MRV nearly EVERY day. I use DLB perhaps a couple of times a month.


I simulate MRV by maintaining SLs on 5 different DVRs! :lol:

Seriously, most MRV that I've seen is only SD. That would be a non-starter for me. Would have to be HD. Anyone think that could happen anytime soon? /s


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## argosy20 (Dec 2, 2006)

As a DLB fan and supporter, I have watched almost all of the DLB threads. I couldn't help but notice that it is one of the most polarizing topics in the HR20 threads. And those who support it are very passionate about having their DLB (I know I am). Including some who are willing to go to another content provider. Finally, there seems to be an impression that there is a small percentage of people that even know that their TIVO's or other DVR has this capability. What if more customers knew about the capability? They might also become addicted and turn into zealous fans of the feature, much like me and other posters here. 

In the current age where it is cheaper to retain customers than to find new ones, I think D* is missing an opportunity here. Provide, market, and educate about DLB, to attract customers and turn them into zealous customers for life. Just my marketing $.02.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

drew2k said:


> Woa! I'm getting some serious deja vu here!


That's what happens when you read a thread top-down!!


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## Crypter (Jun 21, 2007)

Ok I am new to DBStalk but I have been a DTV customer for a longtime and I had the HR10-250 for 3 years until recently when I changed all 3 of them out for 3 HR20's. Now, for a while the DLB issue bothered me, but I have learned to live without it. If there is ever a situation (ie Sports Viewing) where I want to go back and fourth between two channels. I simply press record on both of those channels and use the PREV feature to switch between them. This to me has the same result and if I no longer care about a program and I want to go to a different channel the DVR will ask me if I want to stop recording and I simply stop and delete and go to the new channel and if I want to keep that buffering while my other one is still recording then I press record on the new channel. I have gotten by without it now to the point where I had forgotten about it until I read all these threads about DLB. 

Reading these DLB threads reminds me of a battle I had with my grandma once trying to get her to use a computer. She refuses to use a computer because she has just always been used to books and hand writing stuff.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Crypter said:


> Reading these DLB threads reminds me of a battle I had with my grandma once trying to get her to use a computer. She refuses to use a computer because she has just always been used to books and hand writing stuff.


It's actually more like the other way around considering DLB's are a basic feature on almost every other providers dual tuner DVR's. Being forced to record both, (and you can't pause one show and have it stay paused) then having to go back and delete is more akin to hand writing.

I'm in temporary quarters right now while my house is built and the place I'm staying has cable provided by a small regional provider and guess what... I have DLBs.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Titan25 said:


> I'm sorry but anybody that puts DLB ahead of MRV has never used MRV. I've had it for a couple of years on my DirecTiVos and it has made as big an impact on my TV viewing as DVRs did in the first place. I use MRV nearly EVERY day. I use DLB perhaps a couple of times a month.


No reason both cannot be had.


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## Crypter (Jun 21, 2007)

raott said:


> It's actually more like the other way around considering DLB's are a basic feature on almost every other providers dual tuner DVR's. Being forced to record both, (and you can't pause one show and have it stay paused) then having to go back and delete is more akin to hand writing.
> 
> I'm in temporary quarters right now while my house is built and the place I'm staying has cable provided by a small regional provider and guess what... I have DLBs.


Well I don't think so. I mean when you are recording programs on 2 channels at once and you change to a channel that you are not recording the screen pops up to prompt you which recording to stop and as soon as you select one it changes the tuner to the channel you just entered and then you can watch the new channel and if you want to switch back and keep the buffer on the new channel then you press record and go back. As for the pause issue, I think that will be addressed soon enough and even without it I do just fine.

Actually I have noticed that if you play back a recording while it is recording and pause the the reording and switch to another channel then pressing PREV will return the the pause point.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Crypter said:


> Well I don't think so. I mean when you are recording programs on 2 channels at once and you change to a channel that you are not recording the screen pops up to prompt you which recording to stop and as soon as you select one it changes the tuner to the channel you just entered and then you can watch the new channel and if you want to switch back and keep the buffer on the new channel then you press record and go back. As for the pause issue, I think that will be addressed soon enough and even without it I do just fine.
> 
> Actually I have noticed that if you play back a recording while it is recording and pause the the reording and switch to another channel then pressing PREV will return the the pause point.


I'm not sure what you "don't think so about". Without DLBs, you have to record both channels and then later delete, it is an extra two steps. With the Tivo units and Moto boxes you do not have to do that. You simply hit the down button with Tivo or the "swap" button on the moto boxes. When you pause, it stays paused on the previous channel.

DLBs are a feaure, there are workarounds, it is much less convenient and to equate DLBs to being less advanced is not a good comparison.


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## premio (Sep 26, 2006)

I WANT QLB and the ability to record 4 shows at once!!!


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## John in Georgia (Sep 24, 2006)

raott said:


> I'm not sure what you "don't think so about". Without DLBs, you have to record both channels and then later delete, it is an extra two steps. With the Tivo units and Moto boxes you do not have to do that. You simply hit the down button with Tivo or the "swap" button on the moto boxes. When you pause, it stays paused on the previous channel.
> 
> DLBs are a feaure, there are workarounds, it is much less convenient and to equate DLBs to being less advanced is not a good comparison.


Suggest you keep in mind that you're expecting SD operations from a box that deals with HD. I'm more than happy to deal with the extra two steps.

John


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

John in Georgia said:


> Suggest you keep in mind that you're expecting SD operations from a box that deals with HD. I'm more than happy to deal with the extra two steps.
> 
> John


I'm not sure what you mean by "you're expecting SD operations", or else you are completely missing my point. I'm expecting the HR20 to do what almost every other HD dual tuner DVR does, that is DLBs. The D* HD Tivo unit has HD and DLBs and the cable Moto box has HD and DLBs. The HR20 does not have DLBs. My point is it should be added, it is a standard feature on virtually every other provider's dual tuner HD boxes, shouldn't have to do a work around.


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## John in Georgia (Sep 24, 2006)

raott said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "you're expecting SD operations", or else you are completely missing my point. I'm expecting the HR20 to do what almost every other HD dual tuner DVR does, that is DLBs. The D* HD Tivo unit has HD and DLBs and the cable Moto box has HD and DLBs. The HR20 does not have DLBs. My point is it should be added, it is a standard feature on virtually every other provider's dual tuner HD boxes, shouldn't have to do a work around.


My apologies. I didn't realize the other HD boxes had those features.

John


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

premio said:


> I WANT QLB and the ability to record 4 shows at once!!!


Simple!

Two HR20's


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

premio said:


> I WANT QLB and the ability to record 4 shows at once!!!


I'll see your 4 and add 4, I want OLB (Octal or 8X LB)

When I got my HR20, I knew it didn't have DLB. I didn't pay for DLB. They didn't claim, advertise, or imply that it would have DLB. When it came and didn't have DLB, I was shocked....just shocked. How dare they!

If it gets added at some time, I'm sure I'll like it. If it doesn't....yawn.

They did claim it would scan for OTA-HD channels ...and it doesn't. Now that's worth getting cranked up about.

All of the above tongue-in-cheek, so don't take it even remotely seriously. People have their wishes, no matter how silly they might be.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Steve said:


> I simulate MRV by maintaining SLs on 5 different DVRs! :lol:
> 
> Seriously, most MRV that I've seen is only SD. That would be a non-starter for me. Would have to be HD. Anyone think that could happen anytime soon? /s


No technical reason that HD recordings couldn't be shared over any basic home network. D just has to want to do it.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

Steve said:


> I simulate MRV by maintaining SLs on 5 different DVRs! :lol:
> 
> Seriously, most MRV that I've seen is only SD. That would be a non-starter for me. Would have to be HD. Anyone think that could happen anytime soon? /s


If Directv adds MRV there is no reason why you would not be able to watch HD with it. If they are adding HD to VOD and you have to download it why wouldn't you be able to stream it on your own home network.


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## Rocker07 (Jul 1, 2007)

raott said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "you're expecting SD operations", or else you are completely missing my point. I'm expecting the HR20 to do what almost every other HD dual tuner DVR does, that is DLBs. The D* HD Tivo unit has HD and DLBs and the cable Moto box has HD and DLBs. The HR20 does not have DLBs. My point is it should be added, it is a standard feature on virtually every other provider's dual tuner HD boxes, shouldn't have to do a work around.


This is my first post ever on this site and the first time I've ever felt compelled to post something.....DLBs are the one thing I miss most from my old TiVo DVR. I was shocked when I upgraded to the HR20 and it didn't have this.....please give us back our DLBs.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

Crypter said:


> Well I don't think so. I mean when you are recording programs on 2 channels at once and you change to a channel that you are not recording the screen pops up to prompt you which recording to stop and as soon as you select one it changes the tuner to the channel you just entered and then you can watch the new channel and if you want to switch back and keep the buffer on the new channel then you press record and go back. As for the pause issue, I think that will be addressed soon enough and even without it I do just fine.
> 
> Actually I have noticed that if you play back a recording while it is recording and pause the the reording and switch to another channel then pressing PREV will return the the pause point.


Here is how it works on most other DVRs (if not all DVR -D*)



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.


HR20 loses it's pause point and does not work.

I still have no idea why this is not on the HR20. It's like a big step back. If you listed all the DVRs D* would be the only one without it. Maybe after time it will get it but how much more time?? The system is getting better......It still has a little way to go.

I think they need to fire/get more people in there to help them. It's just taking too long.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Ken S said:


> No technical reason that HD recordings couldn't be shared over any basic home network. D just has to want to do it.





BMoreRavens said:


> If Directv adds MRV there is no reason why you would not be able to watch HD with it. If they are adding HD to VOD and you have to download it why wouldn't you be able to stream it on your own home network.


You guys make a good point. Maintaining series links on different machines is not terribly time-consuming, but it is error-prone. Despite my best efforts, I still sometimes wish I had recorded "x" show on "y" machine.

It certainly would come in handy to be able to watch anything anywhere in HD. /s


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## MJMason1 (Jun 7, 2007)

For the purposes of my post:

I consider DLB functionality to mean "Similar in function to that of the DirecTivos and not as the described HR20 "DLB" workaround". I don't have experience with other DVR's other than DirecTV to compare to.

and

Considering DLB on it's own and not relative to the value of other features, fixes, and enhancements users would like or need.

For me:


DLB is great and appreciated on my DirecTivos.

DLB is missed on my HR20.

DLB would be a welcome enhancement to the HR20.

Easy or hard, I would be surprised only if it technically couldn't be done on the HR20.

I hope that DirecTV decides to incorporate this on the HR20 as they seem to be on or ahead of the curve in their efforts for this DVR.

In my opinion adding DLB would be staying on the curve, not leaping ahead as the DirecTivos have already set the bar for this type of functionality in a DVR.

Even if the HR20 is a new product line, the DirecTivos were their DVR predecessors for DirecTV as a service provider. Was there another DirecTV DVR? That is the consumer perception even though DirecTV may not view it that way. For some customers, this unintentionally lends the DLB feature to be missed from the HR20.

Mike

PS - Thanks Earl for all of the information you provide and time you put into these boards. It is appreciated.


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## bullitt (Apr 27, 2002)

hasan said:


> I'll see your 4 and add 4, I want OLB (Octal or 8X LB)
> 
> When I got my HR20, I knew it didn't have DLB. I didn't pay for DLB. They didn't claim, advertise, or imply that it would have DLB. When it came and didn't have DLB, I was shocked....just shocked. How dare they!
> 
> ...


:goofygrin 
I want the ability to travel back in time to 1963 when we had 3 Networks, 4 Independents and one or two UHF channels and we didn't need no stinkin' buffers. Our surround sound was my mother or father yelling from the kitchen "did you do your homework yet?" A season pass was whatever your parents decided to watch and you had better like it and HD was possible with fine alignment of the Rabbit Ears.


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## Garand762 (Sep 27, 2006)

I want to know what everyone is going to complain about not having if DLB ever exists???  

I had TIVO for years and really was not looking forward to not having DLB when I got the HR20 I was addicted to them and it drove my wife crazy. Now I don't even think about not having them till I read the these treads.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

MJMason1 said:


> For the purposes of my post:
> 
> I consider DLB functionality to mean "Similar in function to that of the DirecTivos and not as the described HR20 "DLB" workaround". I don't have experience with other DVR's other than DirecTV to compare to.
> 
> ...


Nice 1st post Mike! Welcome to the forums.

I think after time. HR20 will get DLB. It will have too. Needs to keep up with other DVRs. If they are pushing sports on D* what a great ad that would make for them. Showing off DLB on a TV ad. 

Did you vote? http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118


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