# Satellite Changes Coming - May 31st, 2015



## James Long

The following card was received by a subscriber with only SD equipment aimed at Western Arc. Their market is officially Eastern Arc with HD locals available and all new installs being Eastern Arc. It looks like DISH has put a date on kicking at least my market off of Western Arc. May 31st.


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## inkahauts

Do you think this is the beginning to go all mpeg4 for dish on both archs now?


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## James Long

inkahauts said:


> Do you think this is the beginning to go all mpeg4 for dish on both archs now?


I believe it is ... how big of a step it is depends on how widespread this notice is.


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## harsh

inkahauts said:


> Do you think this is the beginning to go all mpeg4 for dish on both archs now?


This may be an interim transition away from QPSK-only receivers. We've known for some time that this was coming.

Of course since DISH offers full SD facilities on their HD equipment (many including modulators), they could go all the way to MPEG4 without causing a lot of upset.


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## inkahauts

James Long said:


> I believe it is ... how big of a step it is depends on how widespread this notice is.


Then I'd almost venture to guess both DIRECTV and DISH have begun the very slow process of going all Hi Definition and getting rid of SD dupes. Long process. I wasn't sure if this was more like DIRECTV sunset go a few ancient recovers earlier this year or the start of a bigger move. Seems bigger now. Good for everyone it seems.


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## HoTat2

So let's see if I understand this, as Dish's setup has always been a bit confusing to me....

To briefly summarize.

1) This subscriber's local channel market is "officially" on the EA which means they are carried there in MPEG-4 HD or SD (if no HD feed is available)?

2) Up until next year 5/31/2015 at least, All EA local market channels are also available in MPEG-2 SD on the WA?

3) Therefore this subscriber will need his older MPEG-2 receiver(s) replaced with MPEG-4 (or HD capable) one(s) and also a new dish, likely a 1000.2 with an EA twin LNB (unless 77 is needed), pointed at the EA?


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## James Long

HoTat2 said:


> So let's see if I understand this, as Dish's setup has always been a bit confusing to me....
> 
> To briefly summarize.
> 
> 1) This subscriber's local channel market is "officially" on the EA which means they are carried there in MPEG-4 HD or SD (if no HD feed is available)?
> 
> 2) Up until next year 5/31/2015 at least, All EA local market channels are also available in MPEG-2 SD on the WA?
> 
> 3) Therefore this subscriber will need his older MPEG-2 receiver(s) replaced with MPEG-4 (or HD capable) one(s) and also a new dish, likely a 1000.2 with an EA twin LNB (unless 77 is needed), pointed at the EA?


Correct on all three points ... although not all EA markets are also on WA. Most markets that had SD feeds on WA kept them while HD moved to EA.

(BTW: The subscriber who received this card has only 301/501 receivers.)

If anyone else has received such a card ... especially in a WA market ... please post!


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## scooper

Looks like I did my own transition to a VIP222K too soon


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## scooper

Also from what I've heard, 77 is only needed on EA for International channels


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## James Long

scooper said:


> Also from what I've heard, 77 is only needed on EA for International channels


77 has several local markets and two transponders with DISH Latino channels. No international channels.


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## jerry downing

They will replace obsolete receivers. They will repoint dishes but will they cut down the neighbor's tree that is blocking EA satellite signals?


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## inkahauts

Id bet they'd relocate it if they could....


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## mwdxer

I use a 211k HD receiver in the house, but to align my dish, I usually take my old 322 out to the dish to align it. I wonder if that receiver will still work to align the dishes after May 2015?


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## jscudder

jerry downing said:


> They will replace obsolete receivers.


Which receivers are on the current retirement list? Is there a list of all obsolete receivers?

John


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## tsmacro

Just rec'd the following:

We would like to make you aware that, in preparation for the launch of a new satellite, certain existing DISH customers will be required to complete equipment migrations in order to ensure that they do not experience any service interruption once the new satellite is operational. This migration will be taking place over the next year and DISH will be reaching out to customers to inform them of any necessary changes beginning next week.

Attached are the letters that will be sent in this first round of communication to impacted customers. As we move forward, additional communication may be sent to customers who have yet to migrate. DISH will be handling all migrations, so if a customer calls a Sales Partner, the agent should transfer the call to DISH as they usually would for existing customer upgrades.

Below is an overview of the two types of migration that DISH may be performing for the customers involved:

QPSK Migration

Existing customers with one or more QPSK receiver on their account will be asked to upgrade to a more current receiver.
QPSK receivers include:
301, 2800, 3700, 3900, 4900, 1000/1500, 3000/3500, 4000/4500, 5000/5500, 501, 508, 510

[*]The customer's QPSK receivers will be upgraded at no upfront cost. The customer will also not be required to enter into a new commitment. An upfront cost and a new commitment may be required if a customer requests an upgrade to a Hopper system.
[*]These migrations must be completed by May 2015.

Eastern Arc Markets Migration

Existing customers in certain DMAs will be required to upgrade to all MPEG-4 (HD) receivers and have their antenna flipped to the Eastern Arc.
The customer will be upgraded and their antenna flipped at no cost. The customer will also not be required to enter into a new commitment. An upfront cost and a new commitment may be required if a customer requests an upgrade to a Hopper system.
The migrations in the below DMAs must be completed by the end of 2015. Additional DMAs are being migrated on a reactive basis only, but these customers will not be receiving migration letters at this time.

*DMA*

1​
Albany Plus 

2​
Boston Plus (has Burlington)

3​
Buffalo, NY

4​
Burlington Plus

5​
Burlington, VT/Plattsburg, NY

6​
Chattanooga, TN

7​
Evansville, IN

8​
Jackson, MS

9​
Jacksonville, FL/Brunswick, GA

10​
Lansing, MI

11​
Madison, WI

12​
Northeast Portland-Auburn

13​
Panama City, FL

14​
Portland/Auburn, ME

15​
Portland-Auburn Plus

16​
Presque Isle, ME

17​
Quincy, IL

18​
Rockford, IL

19​
Springfield, MO

20​
Tallahassee, FL

21​
Wheeling, WV/Steubenville, OH


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## harsh

scooper said:


> Looks like I did my own transition to a VIP222K too soon


Those are getting pretty scarce if the rumors are true. Apparently the installers who are setting up head ends are buying them up to use as dual SD receivers for motels and RV parks.

You should consider bugging DISH about transitioning sooner than later.


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## scooper

I'm fine - I bought my VIP222K and an MT2 OTA tuner, It works fine on 110/119 if necessary. I'm waiting for parts to arrive and see if the Dish 500 can be used for 61.5 / 72.7 EA setup. I might even see if the DPP Twin will work

Besides - my market (Raleigh /Durham NC) is on both Eastern and western arcs in HD (although personally I don't have a prayer for 129 - too many too tall and too close trees - low look angle for 129) . Eastern Arc is fine at my house, however.


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## damondlt

The question I still have, if dish is moving people over to Eastern Arc, How obtainable is Eastern Arc satellites from the west coast? 

The 129 is basically not or even recommended for North eastern states.

I was a "wing dish" customer when I had dish.


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## James Long

damondlt said:


> The question I still have, if dish is moving people over to Eastern Arc, How obtainable is Eastern Arc satellites from the west coast?
> 
> The 129 is basically not or even recommended for North eastern states.
> 
> I was a "wing dish" customer when I had dish.


DISH is *NOT* moving all of their customers over to Eastern Arc. They are only moving customers in select markets ... markets specifically chosen because they can receive Eastern Arc satellites. Not west coast markets.


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## scooper

As James said - ONLY SELECT markets are transitioning to EA (the list above in tsmacro's post). EVERYONE using a QPSK receiver (listed in tsmacro's post again) will be getting a more modern receiver (and if you're still using a 2800, 3700/3800/3900 or a 4900 - not to mention the even older units - I feel sorry for you). However - a newer model receiver DOES NOT mean that you are getting a free upgrade to HD programming (except if you are moved to Eastern Arc - then you'll get locals in HD).

I note that nothing was said about markets like mine - as stated, we can get HD locals off either arc. I see neighbors with both types of dishes, depending on their tree situation.

Edit - Also - the customers with the HD units should be eligible for the HD Free for 2 years.


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## shadough

So is this a total migration away from QPSK, or is this only applying to those customers in those select cities, who would obviously need to upgrade from QPSK if they're being switch to E. ARC, as none of those recvrs would work over there. To that point, QPSK rcvrs should continue to work on W. ARC?

My account does fall into this category as I still have a 10 yr old 510 still working, an working well, but I'm not in any of those DMAs. I also have a 322, but I don't see that on the list of QPSK rcvrs.


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## Jim5506

The mandatory migration is ONLY for the listed DMAs - others can move if they want to, but they (YOU) can stay where they are and nothing changes.


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## James Long

Jim5506 said:


> The mandatory migration is ONLY for the listed DMAs - others can move if they want to, but they (YOU) can stay where they are and nothing changes.


The card posted at the top of the thread came from a market not on the list.


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## 4bama

I have a 508 connected to 5 SD TV's scattered in different rooms..the 508 output is routed through a distribution amp to drive the long coax runs to different TV's.

I also got the 31 May deadline to switch out the 508 for another receiver...I'm in the Birmingham, Al. DMA, Dish receives 110, 119 and 128 satellites..The Dish also feeds my VIP622 and it is connected to my only HD TV.

What is the best receiver to chose that provides SD output(s) to replace the 508...Also, I have 5 remotes for my 508, one for each of the SD TV's. I would like to select a replacement receiver that will accept these same remote controllers.

So, any advice/comments will be appreciated.


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## Blowgun

If you are considering a Hopper, keep in mind that the Hopper does not have RF coax, nor S-Video output jacks. It does have HDMI and YPbPr for HD, and composite (yellow) for SD video. I believe one option would be to feed the distribution system with your current VIP622.


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## 4bama

Blowgun said:


> If you are considering a Hopper, keep in mind that the Hopper does not have RF coax, nor S-Video output jacks. It does have HDMI and YPbPr for HD, and composite (yellow) for SD video. I believe one option would be to feed the distribution system with your current VIP622.


Don't need a Hopper....I use the VIP622 in single mode so I can watch two different football games in split-screen mode, I also have my OTA antenna connected to the 622 and Antenna is picking up all the Montgomery locals, Dish has Birmingham locals so using the 622 to feed other TV's is not an option.

I just want to replace the 508 with a receiver that has a SD output and can use the same 508 UHF remotes.


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## OkieDave

I'm on the western arc, and received a slightly different card. I can't post a picture of it, but will quote what it says:

"Dear Valued Customer,

In an effort to provide better service for all of our customers, we are retiring some of our older receivers. These receivers will no longer work after May 31, 2015. You have at least one of these receivers on your account that needs to be replaced with a newer generation receiver.
To ensure that your service is not interrupted, please call us as soon as possible at 800-333-DISH (3474) and select option 4 for techinical support. There is no cost or commitment associated with replacing your receiver(s).

Thank you for being a valued DISH customer."

I called tech support and was told that my ancient (but still working great) 510 reciever would be exchanged for a 612 at no charge with no change to my monthly bill. I called again the next day, and was told that I'd get a 512. When I explained that on a previolus call I was told I'd get a 612, the CSR changed her story and said that yes, it would be a 612.

My question - of the two (612 or 512) receivers, which one could I expect to have the least problems with? HD would be nice, but it's not a deal breaker.


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## 4bama

4bama said:


> I just want to replace the 508 with a receiver that has a SD output and can use the same 508 UHF remotes.


OK, after reviewing the available receivers I think this is the best fit for my 508 replacement...my only question is will my 508 UHF remotes work with the 512 receiver:

Solo DVR 512

Supports one SD TV.
DVR so you can pause, record, and playback TV.
Watch one show while recording another at the same time.
Watch a pre-recorded show while recording two separate shows at the same time.
160 GB hard drive.
Picture-in picture feature so you can watch two things on one screen.
DISH On Demand: choose from thousands of movie titles or TV shows


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## scooper

the 512 should work with your 508 UHF remotes. So should the 625 and 322 . I don't know about any of the HD receivers.

I also note that the 311 , 322 , 625 as well as the 512 receivers were all NOT listed as needing replaced - these are all SD receivers but can do 8PSK. These receivers would only be replaced for an EA market.


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## damondlt

Jim5506 said:


> The mandatory migration is ONLY for the listed DMAs - others can move if they want to, but they (YOU) can stay where they are and nothing changes.


I guess what I'm trying to find out is what does this move achieve? 
It doesn't really sound like it's bringing Dish closer to anything.

Just sounds like they are removing dup, DMA'S 
But that's fine and all for the Western arc subs, but again it really doesn't add to overall capacity in the Eastern arc setups.


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## scooper

Changing from QPSK modulation to 8PSK modulation will allow more channel cramming on the 110/119 core satellites. Not quite as good as the setup on EA, but it will help. There maybe some additional codecs buried in the firmware that can be activated as well.


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## Stewart Vernon

I don't know that there is much they can do on Eastern Arc setups short of launching another satellite. Eastern Arc is already MPEG4 and has less duplication of SD/HD than Western Arc. Eastern Arc could remove all the SD versions of non-LiLs and get some more space BUT they can't put channels up there unless they can add channels to Western Arc as well.

So Western Arc is where they need to do the most work... it's just that they cannot do that all overnight... so this is stage one to get people off mixed east/west arcs (force more to east hopefully where feasible) and then get more west people off of the really old receivers. The next step after that would be getting MPEG4 capable receivers to everyone on Western Arc but that could take a while... and that's when they could go all MPEG4 on Western Arc and then drop SD equivalents of everything on both arcs to make more room for everyone.


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## James Long

damondlt said:


> I guess what I'm trying to find out is what does this move achieve?
> It doesn't really sound like it's bringing Dish closer to anything.


I must have posted it in a different thread ...

QPSK to 8PSK allows DISH to put more SD on each transponder. Basically three transponders of QPSK SD will fit on two transponders of 8PSK SD. That frees up one transponder for new content ... which is likely to be HD.

(BTW: The above mentioned increase of number of SDs per transponder comes from making additional bits available for transport - not reducing the number of bits per channel or further compression.)

At last count DISH has 30 QPSK ConUS transponders on Western Arc ... convert them all to 8PSK and DISH frees up 10 transponders. Enough space for 80 to 100 HD channels.

Does that sound like something worth achieving?


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## James Long

Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't know that there is much they can do on Eastern Arc setups short of launching another satellite.


Eastern Arc is not where the bottleneck exists.


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## damondlt

James Long said:


> Does that sound like something worth achieving?


Not really, because it isn't going to do any good until the move is completed, and that's not till May of next year.
And it is far from a long term solution.

And again, it doesn't free up anything for Eastern arc customers.

No way do I think Dish can add 80 -100 more HD channels without adding addtional satellites.
They will be the poorest quality ever.


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## scooper

If you can open up 10 transponders on Western Arc, I'm willing to bet that much could be freed up on Eastern Arc for additional content. Especially if you can get rid of SD duplicates of HD channels. Keep the SD channels on Western Arc where the 8PSK SD receivers will be until you are ready to move everyone to HD capable receivers.

I would not be surprised if Dish has technology built into their receivers that will down rez HD content to SD, even over the Component / HDMI outputs.


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## James Long

As already stated, Eastern Arc isn't the problem area. Additional satellites do NOTHING without the licenses to transmit on additional frequencies (unless ConUS locals are be moved to spotbeams on new satellites - which does not apply to Western Arc). Without new transponder licenses to transmit on the only answer is to free up the transmitters they have.

Give DISH 10 open transponders and they can easily put up 80 HD channels - with no reduction from the quality they are transmitting today. Nearly all of their current HD is uplinked at 8 to 10 channels per transponder.

May isn't that far away. The moves will BEGIN in May (once subscribers have a chance to change out their equipment). Long term, how many transponders for HD do you think DISH needs? They are currently running 20 HD transponders Western Arc and this move will give them an up to 50% increase in capacity. That ain't nothing.


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## James Long

scooper said:


> I would not be surprised if Dish has technology built into their receivers that will down rez HD content to SD, even over the Component / HDMI outputs.


SD outputs are built in to every DISH receiver. Even the newest Hopper/Joeys have composite outputs. And the HDMI outputs can be set to 480i/480p.

The trick would be the 8PSK MPEG2 receivers that cannot do MPEG4 or HD. DISH would need to continue to feed MPEG2 SD feeds to those receivers until they are all replaced with 8PSK HD equipment.


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## scooper

OkieDave said:


> I'm on the western arc, and received a slightly different card. I can't post a picture of it, but will quote what it says:
> 
> "Dear Valued Customer,
> 
> In an effort to provide better service for all of our customers, we are retiring some of our older receivers. These receivers will no longer work after May 31, 2015. You have at least one of these receivers on your account that needs to be replaced with a newer generation receiver.
> To ensure that your service is not interrupted, please call us as soon as possible at 800-333-DISH (3474) and select option 4 for techinical support. There is no cost or commitment associated with replacing your receiver(s).
> 
> Thank you for being a valued DISH customer."
> 
> I called tech support and was told that my ancient (but still working great) 510 reciever would be exchanged for a 612 at no charge with no change to my monthly bill. I called again the next day, and was told that I'd get a 512. When I explained that on a previolus call I was told I'd get a 612, the CSR changed her story and said that yes, it would be a 612.
> 
> My question - of the two (612 or 512) receivers, which one could I expect to have the least problems with? HD would be nice, but it's not a deal breaker.


If I was in your situation, I would go ahead and spring for the VIP612. It's a newer design, more than likely the box was built later, AND you won't have to go through this exercise again when Dish decides it's time to retire the 8PSK SD receivers (and this is a "when", not an "if"). It would also have more HardDrive space. You would also gain the ability to save programming to an external Hard Drive when you need to replace the 612 (for repair, etc.).

But I'm not you and this is only my opinion and my reasons why. Good luck.


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## bluegras

i hope we get alot more HD channels with directv launching the new satellite in dec so i hope the transition happens sooner than may.so there will be room for 80 to 100 more hd channels.

Thanks

Allen


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## James Long

bluegras said:


> i hope we get alot more HD channels with directv launching the new satellite in dec so i hope the transition happens sooner than may.so there will be room for 80 to 100 more hd channels.


DirecTV's satellite launch will not help DISH.


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## bluegras

i know that was a stupid question to ask so once the conversion happens there will be room for lots of HD channels am i right about that.

allen


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## scooper

There will be more room for "content" - whether it is SD, HD, audio only, whatever.


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## Blowgun

Maybe the satellite changes mention in this thread is the beginning, but I look forward to the day providers do away with all SD and stop treating HD as something special. Too many years have gone by already. Set a date, like what was done when analog went dark, and move on. Unfortunately, in this age of HD, some providers charge extra for HD.


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## James Long

Providers that do not have a line item charge for HD just roll it into their increased prices.
It costs money to retransmit HD channels. Getting HD to customers costs bandwidth. Updating literally millions of receivers to be HD compatible is not free.


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## zippyfrog

From a sports fan side, I would hope that this extra bandwidth would eliminate the infamous JIP HD games. Or better yet, make the RSN's Full-Time HD.


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## Stewart Vernon

I'm not sure anyone here can name 80-100 "missing" HD channels... so if Dish could free up that space due to the western arc changes then they can match that on eastern arc without doing anything (from a customer perspective, obviously they have to do a little juggling)... so where are these 80-100 HD channels?


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## Blowgun

James Long said:


> Providers that do not have a line item charge for HD just roll it into their increased prices.


True, but surely you must also believe that is bound to happen with all providers as the nation is finally weaned off of SD?



James Long said:


> It costs money to retransmit HD channels. Getting HD to customers costs bandwidth.


Well, there is gonna be 80-100 freed HD channels available, that's a start -- more will follow. Same bandwidth used as before. 

Unless DISH has plans for the freed up bandwidth for dishNET.



James Long said:


> Updating literally millions of receivers to be HD compatible is not free.


I agree, only at some point it needs to be done. It should have started a long time ago to spread out the cost. I had a 508 for over a decade and despite hints that DISH was going to retire the 508, that never happened. Some of the receivers on the list above should have been retired a long time ago.

Anyway, I hope it happens sooner than later.


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## bluegras

i have a list that i put togehter of stations that have hd feeds that dish needs to carry there about 37 or more channels that have hd feeds ypu got to add the premium plus the rsns that need to go 24/7 and needs to go hd if i am leaving out any other channels that need to be updated let me know.

max latino,moremax,nasa,insp,ovation,fusion,nuvo,jewerlytv,aljazeera america,blaze,cspan 1 and 2,chiller,pivot,american hereos channel,up,nickjr,disney junior,great american channel,mtv2,qvc,shp hq,oxygen,tv guide network,tvland,hsn,fox movie channel,pursuit channel,world fishing channel,outdoor channel,disney xd,hrtv,tvgame,all the encore channels,showtime next,showtime women,showtime beyond,showtime extreme,the movie channel xtra,showtime 3,moviemax,thillermax,outermax,moviesmax,max latino,starz cinema,starz edge,hbo2 west

let me know which ones also need to be added also.

Allen bluegras


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## harsh

bluegras said:


> i have a list that i put togehter of stations that have hd feeds that dish needs to carry there about 37 or more channels that have hd feeds ypu got to add the premium plus the rsns that need to go 24/7 and needs to go hd if i am leaving out any other channels that need to be updated let me know.
> 
> max latino,moremax,nasa,insp,ovation,fusion,nuvo,jewerlytv,aljazeera america,blaze,cspan 1 and 2,chiller,pivot,american hereos channel,up,nickjr,disney junior,great american channel,mtv2,qvc,shp hq,oxygen,tv guide network,tvland,hsn,fox movie channel,pursuit channel,world fishing channel,outdoor channel,disney xd,hrtv,tvgame,all the encore channels,showtime next,showtime women,showtime beyond,showtime extreme,the movie channel xtra,showtime 3,moviemax,thillermax,outermax,moviesmax,max latino,starz cinema,starz edge,hbo2 west


I bet that DISH would dispute that they need to carry several of those channels and that few customers would care one way or the other.

There are way too many channels as it is and the carriers need to be pressuring the providers to cut channels, not keep adding them without adding any interesting content.

I remember my original Showtime contract that said that they wouldn't play movies that were over a certain age (perhaps two years). Now most of the movies they play are more than two years old.


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## KyL416

Yeah because who would want to see movies older than 2 years uncut on premium cable when you can enjoy multiple edited airings with commercial breaks on channels like Spike, USA, TNT and TBS...

Not to mention, how small that pool of movies would be with studios having exclusive deals with specific premium channels.


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## Rduce

bluegras said:


> i have a list that i put togehter of stations that have hd feeds that dish needs to carry there about 37 or more channels that have hd feeds ypu got to add the premium plus the rsns that need to go 24/7 and needs to go hd if i am leaving out any other channels that need to be updated let me know.
> 
> max latino,moremax,nasa,insp,ovation,fusion,nuvo,jewerlytv,aljazeera america,blaze,cspan 1 and 2,chiller,pivot,american hereos channel,up,nickjr,disney junior,great american channel,mtv2,qvc,shp hq,oxygen,tv guide network,tvland,hsn,fox movie channel,pursuit channel,world fishing channel,outdoor channel,disney xd,hrtv,tvgame,all the encore channels,showtime next,showtime women,showtime beyond,showtime extreme,the movie channel xtra,showtime 3,moviemax,thillermax,outermax,moviesmax,max latino,starz cinema,starz edge,hbo2 west
> 
> let me know which ones also need to be added also.
> 
> Allen bluegras


My local cable company (Charter) has all those channels and they are offered in glorious HD. Oddly, with the advent of Switched Digital Video the PQ is very good as well, my friend has the Silver package, which includes the premiums of all the HBO, SHOWTIME and CINEMAX for the same price that DISH is asking for their AT200. That package also has a great many channels that you can only obtain from the 250 package, so I have to say my local cable company is actually a better deal than either sat company these days. At least in terms of price and content.


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## shadough

Yes I did receive one of those lil cards in the mail. Stating that I have at least 1 of the receivers that needs retirement. Likely my 510. But I'm not in 1 of those markets that needs switching to EA, thank god. Cuz I don't think I have LOS to the E w/ all the trees.


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## SeaBeagle

I did not receive one. I have Hopper. So Hopper probably is not included.


Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


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## acostapimps

SeaBeagle said:


> I did not receive one. I have Hopper. So Hopper probably is not included.
> 
> Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


!rolling :bang :nono2:







 You're kidding right?


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## SeaBeagle

acostapimps said:


> !rolling :bang :nono2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?


I never received the card.

Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


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## James Long

SeaBeagle said:


> I never received the card.


The cards went out to people with OLD receivers ... near obsolete QPSK receivers ... not people with current or recent receivers.


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## scooper

Hopper receivers are HD = not eligible for upgrade on this.

Once again - QPSK SD receivers (old receivers) will be replaced. For certain designated markets - It WILL mean to MPEG4 HD capable receivers pointed at Eastern Arc ( although HD programming will be extra cost if so desired). Those designated markets will probably also need to have the 8PSK receivers replaced for EA capable receivers.


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## SeaBeagle

James Long said:


> The cards went out to people with OLD receivers ... near obsolete QPSK receivers ... not people with current or recent receivers.


I was replying to this reply.



acostapimps said:


> !rolling :bang :nono2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?


I did not think I was kidding. Maybe acostapimps has a Hopper and received a card.

Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


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## acostapimps

SeaBeagle said:


> I was replying to this reply.
> 
> I did not think I was kidding. Maybe acostapimps has a Hopper and received a card.
> 
> Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


Read post # 15 http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/214566-satellite-changes-coming-may-31st-2015/?p=3297553
I don't sub to Dish


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## James Long

SeaBeagle said:


> I was replying to this reply.


You started down the wayward path with your own post:


SeaBeagle said:


> I did not receive one. I have Hopper. So Hopper probably is not included.


To be clear: Hopper is NOT included. There is nothing in this thread prior to your post to suggest that Hoppers would be replaced and, realistically, there should be nothing in this thread to further that suggestion.

We do not need such derailing information.

The receivers that need replacement by May 31st, 2015, are QPSK SD receivers. In addition customers in the markets listed earlier in the thread are being migrated to Eastern Arc. In addition customers in other Eastern Arc markets who have not yet moved to Eastern Arc will be migrated.


----------



## jpeckinp

Glad to see Chicago isn't on the list. There is no way they could get me on the EA. I have to stretch now to get 110.


----------



## scooper

? 110 is off to the southWEST - Eastern Arc is to the southEAST ...


----------



## SeaBeagle

Sorry about me replying here. 


Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


----------



## acostapimps

SeaBeagle said:


> Sorry about me replying here.
> 
> Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


Sorry about my reply which I thought it was a joke, but didn't realize you didn't knew about why Dish send post cards
Since these cards being sent is for soon to be obsolete very old model receivers that customers still have in their account.
Hoppers are not in the list since it's only for SD receivers.
So you're safe There's nothing to change.


----------



## Dax

Based on the discussion here, it looks like they will be replacing all 3 of my receivers whether I like it or not. Am I correct in assuming that they will stop working because Dish will disable or "expire" the smart cards? I ask because currently my 510 DVR doesn't have to be connected to the satellite in order to watch what's already recorded. Of course that's with a valid smart card. I was hoping that I would be able to keep the 510 in order to have access to the recordings. I'm sure it's technically possible to program a smart card to function just for this purpose, but would Dish do that? Is there a way to transfer the content of a 510 to an external hard drive or to the replacement receiver?


----------



## Michael P

This week my next door neighbor's E* dish was changed from WA to EA. I'm still on WA and have not been contacted. My DMA is not on the list above. I'll have to ask my neighbor why they had their dish changed. I doubt they wanted any Spanish channels. Maybe they had an issue getting one of the WA sats (I doubt that, my dish is literally 20' from theirs and lower than their roof-mounted dish and I have no problems with my WA signals).


----------



## shadough

If your 510 functions normally while NOT connected to the SAT, I see no reason why that would 'cease' to work in June. Whether the smart card is active or not, the recvr would never know, as long as it never re-connected to the SAT/birds. Your 510 should be 'owned', not leased. I can't imagine why Dish would want the recvr back, but I haven't gone thru the process yet so not sure exactly what their 'upgrade deal' requires. They "may" want the smart card back, in which case your fuqed, however, when they DECOM'd the 721, they never haggled me to return the smart card, but that was somewhat of a different situation as they were upgrading everyones smart card to the new encryption. Perhaps some1 whos been thru the swap already could chime in on this issue.


----------



## harsh

Dax said:


> Based on the discussion here, it looks like they will be replacing all 3 of my receivers whether I like it or not. Am I correct in assuming that they will stop working because Dish will disable or "expire" the smart cards? I ask because currently my 510 DVR doesn't have to be connected to the satellite in order to watch what's already recorded. Of course that's with a valid smart card.


There's the problem. The 510 will function for a while without being active but at some point it will go stupid and start complaining of being inactive. The smart cards have an activation expiration and the receiver has a clock/calendar built into it. My 508 did it after about three weeks of not being connected. If you disconnect just before it receives a activation update, it may work for less time.


> Is there a way to transfer the content of a 510 to an external hard drive or to the replacement receiver?


No. The best you can hope for is to "dub" the content to a recorder or computer. Long-term EHD functionality is only available with the ViP and XiP series DVRs but even that is dependent on an active subscription to the same DISH account.


----------



## harsh

shadough said:


> If your 510 functions normally while NOT connected to the SAT, I see no reason why that would 'cease' to work in June.


If it is deactivated (or not connected), it won't be working by February for anything other than live free channels. Reasoning that it should be one way or the other is futile.


> Whether the smart card is active or not, the recvr would never know, as long as it never re-connected to the SAT/birds.


This is not true. Absent an update, the DVR will lose activation within a month.


> Your 510 should be 'owned', not leased.


Unless this is a special situation, this is probably also not true. The 508 and later are typically leased as were more than a few of the 501s.


> I can't imagine why Dish would want the recvr back, but I haven't gone thru the process yet so not sure exactly what their 'upgrade deal' requires.


While the letter doesn't say, they won't want a 510 back. That said, is is little more than a brick after a short while and should be recycled.


> Perhaps some1 whos been thru the swap already could chime in on this issue.


Someone who hasn't done their homework clearly shouldn't have chimed in given that much of what was offered wasn't true.


----------



## mwdxer

There are still a lot of channel, we do not get in HD, even though they are available. TV Land, FXM, and Disney HD, for three. I would like to see the day when everything is at least 720p, but I think that will be many years away. A lot of misc channels we get are not HD either and I don't think many of those are available in HD. Doesn't Dish have to pay extra to the programmer to go from SD to HD? I think Disney chages more. If that is the case, ourbills will go up.


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## david_jr

I would like to see AHC (formerly Military Channel) in HD as well.


----------



## KyL416

mwdxer said:


> Doesn't Dish have to pay extra to the programmer to go from SD to HD? I think Disney chages more.


Yes, most networks consider their HD and SD feeds seperate.


----------



## satcrazy

I believe I'm in the either/or region, but here's my problem: [ currently in W-arc]

129 can be pretty shakey in bad weather here, I was told I can go Eastern arc, but would lose my locals.

My 222k will auto flip to SD when weather makes 129 go wonky, so if Dish eliminates SD channels, I'll be left with just "signal loss".

Not the best of choices, and I bet I'm not the only one in this boat.

Oh yeah, could possibly move the dish three stories up to the roof, but I'll never be able to brush the snow off, plus the roof is pretty new and the other half says "no holes".

As NW Pa. had an incredible amount of snow last year, My pole mount was the only way to go.

Not looking good.


----------



## scooper

What locals do you receive ?


----------



## mwdxer

If the programmer still charges Dish more for HD, that alone could keep Dish from adding an HD feed for what is available in SD. I guess we still have a long way to go.


----------



## scooper

satcrazy said:


> I believe I'm in the either/or region, but here's my problem: [ currently in W-arc]
> 
> 129 can be pretty shakey in bad weather here, I was told I can go Eastern arc, but would lose my locals.
> 
> My 222k will auto flip to SD when weather makes 129 go wonky, so if Dish eliminates SD channels, I'll be left with just "signal loss".
> 
> Not the best of choices, and I bet I'm not the only one in this boat.
> 
> Oh yeah, could possibly move the dish three stories up to the roof, but I'll never be able to brush the snow off, plus the roof is pretty new and the other half says "no holes".
> 
> As NW Pa. had an incredible amount of snow last year, My pole mount was the only way to go.
> 
> Not looking good.


Ok Assuming you receive Erie PA locals - you're answers aren't good. Both SD and HD locals are on 129 only.

Probably the thing to do would be to have a Dish 500 (for 119 and 110) and a larger than standard (say - a 24 or 30 inch ) dish for 129 on it's own mount. What you would use for LNBs and switches depends on what receivers you have. Using a VIP222 as your only - you can get by with a DishProPlus Twin for 110 and 119, and use a DishPro Single or Dual for 129. There is a port on the DPP twin for a wing dish (this is what your 129 dish would be), and the DPP Twin would suffice for switching. The best thing is that you could use a pole mount for 129 also. The 24 or 30 inch dish should provide better signal.

Also - if you haven't already - I'd get an OTA antenna for locals backup.


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## zippyfrog

James - how often do you update http://jameslong.name/dishcapacity.html

Wondering if any of these satellite changes have occurred since your last update.

Also, can a transponder be both ConUS and spot beam at the same time? I went to http://uplink.jameslong.name/chan615.html and notice for transponder 5 on 61.5, it looks like it is now ContUS and not locals as it has RSN's. But at the same time, it also lists a spot beam for Houston. Same thing with TP 1 - there are all these test channels that look like it is ConUS, but also spotbeams for Dallas and New Orleans.


----------



## James Long

zippyfrog said:


> James - how often do you update http://jameslong.name/dishcapacity.html


Not often enough ... I need to update the chart. It is not automated like most of the uplink site.



zippyfrog said:


> Wondering if any of these satellite changes have occurred since your last update.


Nothing planned for next May has happened yet.



zippyfrog said:


> Also, can a transponder be both ConUS and spot beam at the same time? I went to http://uplink.jameslong.name/chan615.html and notice for transponder 5 on 61.5, it looks like it is now ContUS and not locals as it has RSN's. But at the same time, it also lists a spot beam for Houston. Same thing with TP 1 - there are all these test channels that look like it is ConUS, but also spotbeams for Dallas and New Orleans.


For some reason DISH still has a few defunct spotbeams in their network table. The spotbeams no longer exist ... but they are still in the tables with the "UP" placeholder channels shown.


----------



## scooper

The surest way to tell is to go to the Point Dish screen and go through each transponder.


----------



## rrp13

Just to chime in, we had a 510 on our account. I went ahead and contacted for a replacement. We were sent a 512 and told to dispose of the 510. We live in SW Georgia. FWIW...


----------



## zippyfrog

James Long said:


> Not often enough ... I need to update the chart. It is not automated like most of the uplink site.


Thanks for updating the page. One question, you say that there are 2 slots available for HD on Western Arc. How many slots are available on Eastern Arc? Or is the fact that almost everything is 8PSK make the counting different?


----------



## James Long

zippyfrog said:


> Thanks for updating the page. One question, you say that there are 2 slots available for HD on Western Arc. How many slots are available on Eastern Arc? Or is the fact that almost everything is 8PSK make the counting different?


With open transponders and the ability to mix SD and HD I have not attempted to calculate open slots on Eastern Arc. Suffice it to say there are more than two. I may calculate free space on Eastern Arc once there is more free space on Western than Eastern.


----------



## splish

Is the May 31 target date for shutting off QPSK still realistic? I am running a DP301.


----------



## scooper

IMO - the only thing holding Dish from doing it already is getting "enough" old receivers out of the mix. Not being a Dish insider, I could be totally out to lunch on that statement as well. But I would defintely think the May 31st date is realistic.

With that said - I think your DP301 is on the "replacement list", so , if you have heard from Dish about the replacement - go for it, and if you haven't you CAN be proactive.


----------



## splish

If anyone has any inside info about the actual shut off date for QPSK please let me know.


----------



## scooper

You posted in this thread that has the timeframe and wonder what it's going to be [email protected]!?!?!!?!

Best guesses would be Dish starts moving transponders to 8PSK VERY shortly after June 1, 2015. It's probably going to be a gradualy squeeze down, to force the last few QPSK recievers into retirement as people can't receive their favorite channels on old equipment anymore. I would not hazard a guess on what channels will go first - However, I wouldn't be too surprised if it would be PPV / premium channels first, then lesser popular channels and eventually the most popular. Keep in mind that Dish DOESN'T have to convert all the spotbeams right away - and maybe not any at all, depending !


----------



## splish

Thank you for your considered answer. P.S. It has been my experience that Dish and indeed most every entity in the universe ends up doing things much later than they say they are going to do them, thus my inquiry.


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## James Long

If one considers how many years it has taken to get to the May 31st "deadline", DISH has already put this off much later than they wanted to make the change. I believe they have put it off as long as they can.


----------



## harsh

splish said:


> If anyone has any inside info about the actual shut off date for QPSK please let me know.


Why wait?


----------



## nuts

googled and found this site. Just checked out the FAQ for DISH. But I wanted to get some feedback on suggestions.
Also received the notice as posted on this thread. The DISH was installed in 1999. So I'm guessing that it's a DISH300 or older legacy. The receivers were purchased, 3700 solo and 2700 solo. From what I'm gathering, these older legacy receivers will be replaced.
Back in 2008, I had called DISH since my sis has been paying for America's Top 200 and I had noticed that some of the channels are on another orbital. At the time when I did my research, DISH 500 was the necessary upgrade along with DP switches and adapters (DP34, DP 43) for those two legacy receivers.
It was like pulling teeth, based on the tech I was speaking with and where they were out-source to. I requested to have a new DISH500 and the necessary DP switch and legacy adpters sent to me so I can installed them myself. It was I who installed the package back in 1999. But they were insisting on having someone from the company install it. Long story short, the DISH500 never came and apparently my sis still has America's Top 200. At this point it's probably a moot point since the legacy receivers are being upgraded for free. I haven't made the call to DISH network yet.
Do they still offer the DISH500 and what receivers are they most likey upgrading these older legacy receivers to? Just wanted to see what my options are before calling them.


----------



## harsh

What you need depends in large part on where you live. If you live in the Northeast, you'll need an HD dish and receivers.

Legacy equipment and switchgear is all but trash at this point. Same with DishPro.

Fortunately, the wiring isn't any more involved and in some cases, it may be less involved depending on how many receivers you need (and whether a duo receiver might fill the need).

What you have is entirely unimportant. What you want to end up with (how many TVs served with what kind of service) is all that matters.


----------



## RBA

harsh said:


> Why wait?


Probably means outside the legal sales/service area for DISH, or some other nefarious reason. Free upgrades and service calls are usually welcomed.


----------



## nuts

harsh said:


> What you need depends in large part on where you live. If you live in the Northeast, you'll need an HD dish and receivers.
> 
> Legacy equipment and switchgear is all but trash at this point. Same with DishPro.
> 
> Fortunately, the wiring isn't any more involved and in some cases, it may be less involved depending on how many receivers you need (and whether a duo receiver might fill the need).
> 
> What you have is entirely unimportant. What you want to end up with (how many TVs served with what kind of service) is all that matters.


I'm in the northeast, NYC. Interesting you mention DishPro, I was just looking over some notes I made back in '08 when I was looking into having them send me a Dish500. One option I noted was to get the Dish500 with DP Twin + DP34 switch and one or two DP adapters for the legacy receivers. But again, all that's changed now.

Since then we have two HD LCD TV that's connected to the two legacy receivers (3700 and 2700) and paying for America's Top 200 plus Showtime. I was just at the dish website looking at their current receivers. Are they replacing older receivers with HD receivers that are also backwards compatable for SD.
Any guess as to what they will be replacing the legacy 3700 and 2700 receivers with. Any recommendation as to what is a good receiver (model) for the current programming we're paying for.
Also I remember several years ago that on their site there was information on the Dishes, 500, 1000, 1000.1 etc. But now I can't find any references to the dishes they offer.


----------



## scooper

For a one to one - both would probalby be exchanged with a 311 (211 if you're going HD on eastern Arc)


----------



## nuts

scooper said:


> For a one to one - both would probalby be exchanged with a 311 (211 if you're going HD on eastern Arc)


scooper, thanks.
I see the Solo 311 listed for SD TV and the Solo ViP 211K. Excluding having an HDTV (which I guess most people have by now), what mandates going HD? Would the type of programming one is paying for dictate that. The package my sis is paying for (America's Top 200 + Showtime) should have HD broadcast included. Also what is the current HD dish that they can offer as a replacement for the old legacy (probably Dish300) that she has.


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## James Long

RBA said:


> Probably means outside the legal sales/service area for DISH, or some other nefarious reason. Free upgrades and service calls are usually welcomed.


He's good on location. As for other reasons nothing is free. Personally I would need to schedule a time for an install that would either cut in to my time on a weekend or require taking vacation time at work. And this is not a good time of the year to install a dish (wait for the leaves to come back). Putting off the service call as long as possible is a valid preference.


----------



## RBA

nuts said:


> scooper, thanks.
> I see the Solo 311 listed for SD TV and the Solo ViP 211K. Excluding having an HDTV (which I guess most people have by now), what mandates going HD? Would the type of programming one is paying for dictate that. The package my sis is paying for (America's Top 200 + Showtime) should have HD broadcast included. Also what is the current HD dish that they can offer as a replacement for the old legacy (probably Dish300) that she has.


HD signal is a $10 per month upgrade or free upgrade with autopay A 1000.2 dish will work on Eastern or Western ARC.


----------



## harsh

If DISH is going to do an upgrade, I'm guessing they'll want to put you on the Eastern Arc and that involves a new DISH, DPP switchgear and HD receivers. I'm guessing they will probably do this even if you want to stay with SD because MPEG4 is the next step and none of the SD receivers can do MPEG4.


----------



## nuts

RBA said:


> HD signal is a $10 per month upgrade or free upgrade with autopay A 1000.2 dish will work on Eastern or Western ARC.


Just looking at the Showtime add-on she has for $14.00,
318 - Showtime (E) (HD)
319 - Showtime (W) (HD)
320 - Showtime 2 (HD)
321 - Showtime Showcase (HD)
322 - Showtime Extreme
323 - Showtime Beyond
327 - The Movie Channel (E) (HD)
328 - The Movie Channel xtra (E)
333 - FLIX
Since the dish is a legacy 300??? receiving from orbital 119 only, channels 321 and 323 are not picked up. Not to mention the other channels that's included with the America's Top 200 package that's on orbital 110.
Where the "HD" is listed, I understand that the channels are broadcast in both HD and SD. So even if one has an HD receiver, say ViP 211K, one would still have to pay an additional $10/month plus the monthly cost of that package? Just having a package (America's Top 200 + Showtime) where some of the channels are being broadcast in HD and having an HD receiver/Dish and HDTV, doesn't mean one will receive HD signal for those channels?


----------



## Blowgun

RBA said:


> HD signal is a $10 per month upgrade or free upgrade with autopay.


DISH, a little while back, sent out a letter which stated something about they were no longer charging for HD. Prior to the letter, I neither paid $10 per month or use autopay in order to get HD.


----------



## harsh

You must have HD service to get the HD channels. Where they come from doesn't much matter as long as your dish is properly installed.

Trying to go around DISH's back to figure out how they will treat you is relatively pointless.


----------



## nuts

Just got off the phone with a rep at Dish Network. I explained that we received the customer notice about retiring the older receivers.
First she said that they will replace the two legacy receivers (3700 and 2700) with model DuoDVR ViP 722k and most likely a 1000.2 Dish at no cost. But then she added that there will be a monthly charge of $5.00 for local. Huh? I said, why would I want to pay for something that everyone in NYC gets for free. She said she understands, so she'll credit the account for the next 6 months after the install for $5. Huh? It all sounds like I'm on some street corner in Manhattan as someone is hurriedly trying to push a Dolex before the cops show up.
Naturally she's doing her best to push this setup. "Oh, you'll have HD and record...at $10.00 extra a month for HD". Huh? Again I said I don't need local. Her answer "it comes standard now".

Now I explained to her that I had called Dish Network in 2008 and explained that my sis was paying for a package that has certain channels on another orbital and a decision was made to send out a Dish500 and the associated switches, but that never arrived. So she's been paying for certain channels and never received them. But that's water under the bridge now.

I told her that it's freezing here and dangerous for anyone to access the roof right now. So can she send me the receiver (DuoDVR ViP 722k) and I'll hook that up until a month from now when it's safer for a tech to swap out the physical Dish antenna.

Her answer.."we can't do that, a tech has to be the one to install it". I told her an interesting observation from a few years ago when a neighbor had Dish techs come out to do some upgrade and the geniuses drilled holes in the man's house, uncertain as to what they were doing. The next day it rained. guess what.

Now she says, if I wanted she could send out two Solo 311 and I can install them. But they are SD only. Then I asked, do I have to pay for local still. She says no. But hold on, didn't she just say it comes standard now. WTH. Ok, so now I said if we opt for the 311 receivers, what about the physical Dish antenna on the roof. That also has to be upgraded to at least a Dish 500. She's now confused. Again, I explained to her that the current package that we have has channels on another orbital (110) that the legacy Dish 300 doesn't receive. Her response.."Oh, that's a technical issue." "But hold on, aren't you tech support that I'm calling."

Oh Lord. it never ends. This is why I'm on this forum, trying to cipher through the options available. Wants and needs.

Anyway, she made a note of the offers, so when I call back with a decision, the next rep has some baseline to start with. Hopefully.

None of this is for me, it's for my sister. So I'll discuss with her all the information and options available.

Much appreciate all the feedback.

BTW, the one thing I wasn't clear about was owership of the new receivers. The current legacy receivers we have are own by us. I'm not too crazy about leasing.


----------



## mwdxer

I bought all of my receivers and dishes to do my own work as I do not want to deal with tech's and all of that. My dishes are on the side of my shed, so they are very easy to get to. I do like to get up on the roof at my age, nearly 66. But I can easily get up on the roof of the shed or the side to work on them. I have installed dishes since I put in the 8.5 foot dish in my backyard in 1985. I did not know Dish changes for locals, as I thought they were included in the package, AT120, AT200, etc. I know Dish used to have that $5 for locals but now they are included? I bought the 211k back several years ago and everything works fine.


----------



## nuts

Hi mwdxer,
when it's your own house you treat it accordinly. Same with a car. But we all know the horror stories. As I mentioned, when these guys from Dish were on the neighbor's house, another neighbor and i are hearing the drilling and banging. One of the tech is holding a cell phone laughing while the other hand is shaking holding a drill doing some serious damage to the house. We were wondering when they are going to pull out a stick of dynamite to finish the job ( Laurel & Hardy The Finishing Touch).

I'm still wondering about the locals myself. I too would think they are included in the AT200. With the two legacy receivers we have, the bill shows a $7/month for one, even though we own them. From what I gather, this is normal. And as others have mention this may be a reason to get a dual.

As the rep mentioned, the first option is a DuoDVR ViP 722k but with a $5/month for locals even though we have AT200+showtime. But with this option it seems like I'm getting a DVR and the Duo would negate/balance out the additional $7/month for having an additional SD receiver.

Again, I still have doubts about the $5 for locals. I'll check with another rep. But I'm really curious, if the DuoDVR ViP 722k is a one for two replacement with full ownership by me.

Why do some people opt to lease a receiver? Receivers should be free, considering what Dish network makes from their customers on a monthly basis. Same as a cell phone carrier.


----------



## SayWhat?

It may be a difference in packages. I was on an AT250 package that did not have locals; had been on it for years from back when they were optional. When I wanted to downgrade to a lower package, locals became included by default. But the fee change was different by $5 (eg. reduced $15 instead of $20). Because I was grandfathered, they threw an extra $5/mo manual credit on for a year or so.

It may be something like that causing your confusion. Older packages did not include locals. If you make any changes, locals fall in by default, but it costs you $5 more. You can no longer get a package without locals as far as I know and all packages will cost you $5 more as a result.


----------



## James Long

The current packages include locals. If you can stay on a grandfathered package or get a credit more power to you ... but the current packages include locals.

DISH stopped offering the "without locals" packages in 2011.


----------



## nuts

SayWhat? said:


> It may be a difference in packages. I was on an AT250 package that did not have locals; had been on it for years from back when they were optional. When I wanted to downgrade to a lower package, locals became included by default. But the fee change was different by $5 (eg. reduced $15 instead of $20). Because I was grandfathered, they threw an extra $5/mo manual credit on for a year or so.
> 
> It may be something like that causing your confusion. Older packages did not include locals. If you make any changes, locals fall in by default, but it costs you $5 more. You can no longer get a package without locals as far as I know and all packages will cost you $5 more as a result.


From my conversation with the rep earlier, the way I understand it is that I'm not making any changes to my programming package. Just the hardware update as specified in the notice.
The options she described were:
1. replacing the legacy receivers (3700 and 2700) with a DuoDVR ViP 722k and the Dish antenna. All free with no commitment. The legacy receivers are ours. We bough them as a package back in 1999.
2. replacing the legacy receivers (3700 and 2700) with two 311 receivers.

There shouldn't be any changes in the programming package. Just the hardware swapout.
But then she added that if I opt to have the DuoDVR ViP 722k, there will be a $5 charge for locals. This is where I'm confused. why? I'm not changing the programming package.
Option 2 was suggested when I insisted on doing the installation myself. She then said there will be no $5 charge for locals if I opt for the 311s.

So what's the difference. They're just hardware swapout. Programming stays the same.

BTW, I just checked out the forum over on Dish.com. There are some angry customers with some misunderstanding. Some claiming that Dish wants to charge them for the swapout when they owned their original receivers.

With the current setup, we are paying the additional $7/month to have the second receiver (I'll never understand the logic of that, since we own the receiver), if I opted to go with the DuoDVR ViP 722k and pay the $5, there wouldn't be a $7/month charge as before and we would have a DVR as well. But I find it too easy to believe they would just to and even swap for two legacy receivers and just hand out a free DVR. But then again they make a hell of a lot on a monthly basis for the programming package anyway.

But the big question is, will we own the DuoDVR ViP 722k or the 311s. Or are they leasing them to us.

BTW, when I log into our account, under My Programming it says:
America's Top 200
Showtime
Receiver

But when I to the "Main" tab it says:
Core English: Package No longer sold (this is what's checked off)
Preminium Packages: showtime


----------



## SayWhat?

nuts said:


> and the Dish antenna.


That may be it. You may currently not have an LNB to pull the locals. When they change the dish, you will, hence the locals fee.

This fee shell game is all part of why I dropped them. I kept getting credits extended, but with conditions.


----------



## James Long

SayWhat? said:


> That may be it. You may currently not have an LNB to pull the locals.


nuts is in NYC ... his Western Arc locals are on 119 and 110. All he would need is a Dish 500 to receive the signals. For HD locals he would need to move to Eastern Arc.



nuts said:


> From my conversation with the rep earlier, the way I understand it is that I'm not making any changes to my programming package. Just the hardware update as specified in the notice.
> ...
> But then she added that if I opt to have the DuoDVR ViP 722k, there will be a $5 charge for locals.


Adding HD is a change to your programming. You are moving from the grandfathered package without locals to a current package with locals and the add on HD.

In addition to installing the receiver, DISH will need to change your dish and point at different satellites.



nuts said:


> Core English: Package No longer sold (this is what's checked off)


That is because your package (without locals) is no longer sold.


----------



## Blowgun

Sounds like it is time to play Customer Service Roulette with DISH. With any luck you will find someone who can explain things better than the rep you spoke with the first time.


----------



## nuts

Blowgun said:


> Sounds like it is time to play Customer Service Roulette with DISH. With any luck you will find someone who can explain things better than the rep you spoke with the first time.


Bingo. You knew exactly what I was going to do.
I waited till after midnight to make the call. Why? Past experience when dealing with several companies. After a certain hour, the calls are out sourced. Sometimes good, sometimes a nightmare. With Macys, I find that I get great service from the calls being out sourced to the Philippines. In fact my orders are perfect with shipping perks when I speak with the nice reps located in the Philippines. My oders are usually scewed up when the rep in here in the states. They sound pissed at the world and computer illiterate. Just saying from my experience.
BTW, speaking of Macys, the first rep I spoke with earlier reminded me of the sales associates at Macys that are always trying to get you to open an account, when you're there to just buy a shirt and get out. I'm not knocking them as much as the company that demands that they do it.

Anyway, I just got off the phone with a second rep. The call was out-sourced. She pulled up my account and I told her that I called earlier and spoke with a rep. I just want some clarification on some options we discussed. She looks at the notes.

I told her I live in NYC and we have a building here call the Empire State Building that I aim my old and still useful TV antenna at and get free local channels all my life. So why would I have to pay for something I'm getting for free. She laughs. She then tells me after putting me on hold (probably checking with a supervisor), that I don't have to pay extra for locals. The bill will be the same as before. No extra charges for getting the DuoDVR ViP 722k. I asked her to make a notation of that in my account so there is no misunderstanding later.

Now, I asked her to look carefully at my account under equipment and ownership. What does it say. "Purchased". If I opt for the DuoDVR ViP 722k, what will it say under ownership. She says "leased". I pointed out, that was not what the rep earlier had said. But she insist that all customers that receive new receivers will be leased.

I then mentioned that the rep earlier said that if I did not want the DuoDVR ViP 722k, the alternative would be two 311, which they will send me and I can install myself. I asked if the 311 are also being phased out. If so why make them available. She again tells me to hold on. checking with a supervisor. She comes back and tells me my account gives me the option of two Solo ViP 211k instead. I asked her to make a notation of that so we have no misunderstanding when I call back.

Again, I ask, if I opt for two Solo ViP 211k, what will it say under ownership. She says "leased". I then brought up the $7 everyone has been paying for additional receivers that they purchased. She doesn't have a logical answer. But finally says service. I just left it at that. I ask, if I opt for the two Solo ViP 211k, will I pay a monthly charge for the additional receiver. She says no. They will be listed as leased.

I asked, if they are listed as leased, am I being charge anything for them. She says no. Then why have them listed as leased. Why not just send them as direct replacement for customers that have purchased their receivers. She doesn't know.

Can anyone verify that the replacement receivers will be listed as leased for all customers.

Naturally, if one chooses to discontinue service, a pre-paid lable will be sent to send back the receivers. That piece of metal on the roof. they don't want it back. Oh, that's also listed as leased according to her.

I'll check the dish forum and see if a rep online can verify if in fact all receivers sent out will be listed as leased. Since Dish is the one forcing customers to upgade the hardware, they should just do an even replacement for those that own their receivers with full ownership to those customers.


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## James Long

DISH charges the same monthly fee whether the receiver is leased or owned. The difference is when you cancel service or upgrade. Leased receivers must be returned (you pay the shipping if cancelling). Owned receivers can be so;d (assuming they are new enough that the buyer can activate them).


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## nuts

James Long said:


> DISH charges the same monthly fee whether the receiver is leased or owned. The difference is when you cancel service or upgrade. Leased receivers must be returned (you pay the shipping if cancelling). Owned receivers can be so;d (assuming they are new enough that the buyer can activate them).


She did sound uncertain about the answer to that one.
It's interesting how different reps have different answers. When I asked her, if for what ever reason I choose to cancel service in the future, what happens to the receivers. She said a pre-paid label is sent out to return the receivers. The Dish on the roof, she said that can be tossed in the garbage.

I'm still trying to get some verification as to the replacement receivers for customers that own their legacy receivers. Will they be listed as leased or just a direct swap out. She did say there is no charge for the receivers. So why even bother listing them as leased.

I know they probably feel that they are newer receivers and can be sold as you mentioned. But they are the ones forcing certain customers into this situation.


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## mwdxer

One thing I do like about the 211k, is there is no DVR fee as the receiver does not have a HDD, but the customer can easily add one and have the DVR feature for free as they own the HDD. Are there any other Dish receivers you can do that with and have no additional fee?
By the way, once the HDD is used with the 211K, could the HDD be used for a computer or for another purpose? I know the material on the HDD would not be viewable, but could the HDD be erased and reused? I have always wondered about that. I have been thinking is buying a larger HDD. Mine is only 500K.


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## nuts

mwdxer said:


> One thing I do like about the 211k, is there is no DVR fee as the receiver does not have a HDD, but the customer can easily add one and have the DVR feature for free as they own the HDD. Are there any other Dish receivers you can do that with and have no additional fee?
> By the way, once the HDD is used with the 211K, could the HDD be used for a computer or for another purpose? I know the material on the HDD would not be viewable, but could the HDD be erased and reused? I have always wondered about that. I have been thinking is buying a larger HDD. Mine is only 500K.


I wasn't aware that there is a fee with having a DVR. We've never had a DVR so it's all new territory for me. Naturally, neither rep mentioned that when they suggested the DuoDVR ViP 722k. Why push their higher end receivers unless there's a catch.
You mentioned that the 211K can accept a HD. SATA? Capacity?
If there is a fee with having the DuoDVR ViP 722k, then probably having the 211k and adding a HD may be the better way to go. Granted as James mentioned, I would still have to pay $7/month for the second receiver.


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## nuts

James, looks like you're right. Over at the Dish forum, someone mentioned that yes they do send out a prepaid label and if you use it, there is a $17 charge. I wonder what Richard Pryor would say to that.


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## Blowgun

Most external hard drives are already formatted. When a external hard drive is connected to a receiver, it needs to be reformatted so the receiver can use the hard drive. The same external hard drive now connected to a computer will also need to be reformatted. Different process and format, but the same outcome -- usable storage for that device. Once the hard drive is reformatted, for the most part, any important data contained on the hard drive will be lost.


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## Blowgun

nuts said:


> You mentioned that the 211K can accept a HD. SATA? Capacity?


I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the hard drive would be a USB external with a capacity at least up to 2TB. The port on the 211K is 2.0 USB. You can have multiple external hard drives that you can swap in and out. I believe you can also have multiple hard drives connected at once as long as the hub is not passively powered.


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## thomasjk

On the 211 once the drive is formatted to make it a DVR ($40 one time fee) the drive is not interchangeable with other receivers with out being reformatted. BTW no monthly DVR fee with this approach. You can't swap multiple EHD's like you can on the 622/722/Hopper. I suggest you contact one of the DIRT folks http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/195079-dish-internet-response-team-dirt-contact-information/. They can answer your questions and get you set up far better than playing CSR roulette.


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## nuts

James Long said:


> Adding HD is a change to your programming. You are moving from the grandfathered package without locals to a current package with locals and the add on HD.
> 
> In addition to installing the receiver, DISH will need to change your dish and point at different satellites.
> 
> That is because your package (without locals) is no longer sold.


Thanks James. So just by having an HD capable receiver means that one's programming will change, even though they may not subscribe to HD signal ($10/month)?


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## harsh

mwdxer said:


> I did not know Dish changes for locals, as I thought they were included in the package, AT120, AT200, etc. I know Dish used to have that $5 for locals but now they are included?


DISH doesn't charge for locals on packages that include them but if you don't upgrade, you keep one that doesn't have locals. In your case, the upgrade probably came when you went HD.

There are many who resist doing things the easy way and it is because of them that we're a little panicky about bandwidth on the WA.


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## scooper

Nuts - you're overthinking this.

Does you sister just want the programming she currently has (i.e. no HD) ? - get the the 2 311 recievers. No change in programming / change in costs.

If she wants HD => will require tech visit (for both a new dish pointed at eastern arc and at least one new receiver) =. will LOSE the current grandfathered package => will get the comparable current programming for +5$ (for locals) - no option to not subscribe to locals.

Getting a DVR (622/722/722K/922) , Add another charge for DVR service. There are also SD DVRs (512 and 625), same DVR fee.

Getting 211 receivers - you pay the fee and purchase the external USB HD and your 211 will act as a 1 sat tuner / 1 OTA tuner DVR. The HD from the 211 CANNOT be used on the DVRs without reformatting (i.e. lose your saved programming).


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## nuts

scooper thanks for the summary.
I was just discussing it with her. Over the years I haven't kept up with the hardware or programming changes with Dish, until the notice came.

The fees associated with having a DVR wasn't mentioned by the CSR until others here mentioned it. Now I know.

Even if we opt for just the 311, they still need to send a new Dish antenna. Several of the channels for the grandfathered package she has are on orbital 110. In 2008 I had spoken with tech support and they were suppose to send a new antenna, but never did. I was going to pick up the DP switch and adapters for the legacy receivers then. But that never happened.

So basically, the DuoDVR ViP 722k and the 211k, since they are HD capable units, will require a program change from the grandfathered package. Meaning an additional $5/month for locals whether she needs it or not.

Also just having a programming package that has channels that are being broadcast in SD and HD doesn't mean one will receive HD (given an HDTV and HD receiver), one would still have to pay an additional $10/month on top of all other charges for the HD signal.

I can see where the 211 looks interesting. If one later on decides they want to have a DVR unit, they can pay the $40 activation fee and get an external haddrive. With no monthly DVR fee.

It was the monthly DVR fee that surprised me. If my understanding is correct. Not only will they charge you for having a DVR unit (activation fee) but they will also charge a monthly fee for that unit.


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## mwdxer

I think Dish did away with that $40 fee for adding a hard drive. I paid the $40 at the time. The 211k is single tuner for Dish, but it does have a second OTA tuner. I can record both an OTA channel and one Dish channel at the same time and watch something already recorded. So there are limits. But for a single guy, it serves the purpose very nicely. I have an OTA antenna to get the sub channels that are not offered by Dish, plus the OTA pq is better on especially CBS running no sub channels and 1080i.


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## tsmacro

mwdxer said:


> I think Dish did away with that $40 fee for adding a hard drive.


You still have to pay the $40 for adding a hard drive to the 211. You don't have to pay the $40 if you're adding a hard drive to a receiver that's already a DVR.


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## harsh

nuts said:


> Even if we opt for just the 311, they still need to send a new Dish antenna.


DISH doesn't send new antennas. Setting up a 3 slot antenna isn't all that difficult if your patient and diligent but it is more involved than pointing the little dish.

Now is the time to upgrade if your sister plans on staying around as the transition to MPEG4 will probably happen not too far down the road. Getting a DPP dish put up now will get it out of the way for the foreseeable future.


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## nuts

harsh said:


> DISH doesn't send new antennas. Setting up a 3 slot antenna isn't all that difficult if your patient and diligent but it is more involved than pointing the little dish.
> 
> Now is the time to upgrade if your sister plans on staying around as the transition to MPEG4 will probably happen not too far down the road. Getting a DPP dish put up now will get it out of the way for the foreseeable future.


I saw your post, but I had to go clear the sidewalk of the snow and ice we got yesterday. It never ends.
As I was outside, I saw a DISH van passing by. The guy saw me killing myself trying to remove the ice from the sidewalk. We struck up a conversation. He gets out of the van to just see what I was explaining to him. One look at the Dish on the roof and he confirms that they should have sent you a replacement Dish back in 2008 since you installed it yourself or have a tech come out and do it.
He confirmed that whats up there is very old and a LNBF single eye. So if your sister was paying for a package with some channels on 110, she was never getting them. I told him the madness of calling. His suggestion, if the rep you're speaking to sounds like they don't understand what you're explaining to them, just hang up the phone and call back.

Anyway, I explained that we got the notice to make the swap out by May. When I told him that back in 2008 I requested a Dish 500 w/ DP Twin eye and the DP Adapters for the two legacy receivers, he said they should have sent them a long time ago.

But now everything is changing.

Before he left, he told me that what ever decision you make, they'll send you new receivers and a Dish if you stay with SD (311). Or if you decide to go with HD receivers/ and or DVR, they'll send a tech out to do the install with a new Dish as well.

He advised me to stay away from the 211k, that they have issues. He suggest that if they are pushing a 211 ask for a 211z.

Just in case, he went back to his truck, came back and handed me a Dish, arm and twin. He says you know how to hook it up yourself and generally they don't have a 40' ladder to go where I have it installed. He again said I probably won't need them because they'll send some one out to do the install anyway. The twin indicates 119 and 110.

He agrees, she's been paying for a package that was incomplete all these years. She was only receiving 119 and there is no way that the current dish on the roof would get both orbital with a LNBF single eye.


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## harsh

I disagree about the ViP211k.

The ViP211z is the one that has caused the most disappointment as there is stuff "missing" in comparison to the ViP211 and ViP211k. The OTA tuner omission will not go unnoticed.


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## thomasjk

harsh said:


> I disagree about the ViP211k.
> 
> The ViP211z is the one that has caused the most disappointment as there is stuff "missing" in comparison to the ViP211 and ViP211k. The OTA tuner omission will not go unnoticed.


You have to add the Hopper OTA module to a 211Z so you can receive OTA.


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## satcrazy

scooper said:


> Ok Assuming you receive Erie PA locals - you're answers aren't good. Both SD and HD locals are on 129 only.
> 
> Probably the thing to do would be to have a Dish 500 (for 119 and 110) and a larger than standard (say - a 24 or 30 inch ) dish for 129 on it's own mount. What you would use for LNBs and switches depends on what receivers you have. Using a VIP222 as your only - you can get by with a DishProPlus Twin for 110 and 119, and use a DishPro Single or Dual for 129. There is a port on the DPP twin for a wing dish (this is what your 129 dish would be), and the DPP Twin would suffice for switching. The best thing is that you could use a pole mount for 129 also. The 24 or 30 inch dish should provide better signal.
> 
> Also - if you haven't already - I'd get an OTA antenna for locals backup.
> 
> Scooper,
> Thanks for the reply.
> I will have to print this out and study it.
> 
> Yes, I have a antenna for local backup, put it up a few years back. I'd advise anyone who can to do this, it has come in handy more than a few times.


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## harsh

thomasjk said:


> You have to add the Hopper OTA module to a 211Z so you can receive OTA.


OTA modules cost money. The ViP211 and ViP211k don't require this additional $30+ investment.


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## mwdxer

So there still is the $40 fee for adding the HDD to the 211k? That I did not know. It is a one time fee so after that a subscriber can fill all of the HDD's they want and put them on the shelf. I know guys that do that now. Everything is saved in HD. But if the HDD dies, you lose a lot of material. If anything is really that important, I still burn to the disc, even though only in 480. But the 211k is one nice little receiver having the full HD, along with an added HDD, making it a DVR, and having that digital OTA tuner to receive the locals and they are added right along in the guide with the Dish locals including the OTA sub channels. Some of the local sub channel guides are missing, but the channel still scans in and I can record to a DVD or to the HDD if I want to. No additional DVR fees are nice too. I only pay for the programming. The receiver is not for everyone but really fits what I like.


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## shadough

I'm not aware that dish has stopped the $40 enabling fee. I paid the fee a couple yrs ago.

It sounds like you want to maintain your "Owned" status for the recvrs. Only way to do that is to purchase the rcvrs yourself. Also sounds like you want keep your 'grandfathered' status. Therefore you will not be able to upgrade to HD. And, yea there definitely is a DVR fee if you get a rcvr w/ an internal HD, I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned by any of your CSR's, or been brought up sooner in this thread. I'm not sure what the DVR fee is up to, is it $10???

So, my suggestion for you, goto: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=DISH211K&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base&gclid=CJHukpLtisQCFYVAaQody64AXQ
Purchase 2 vip211k rcvrs ($90 each), assuming you still want to maintain "OWNED" status. Otherewise, take the LEASED ones from dish, the advantage w/ LEASE is if they break, Dish will replace, Owned rcvrs if broken, you replace them. Which is why dish will only send you LEASED rcvrs.

While your on that site, purchase a dish500 dish an upgrade the dish yourself, w/ a DP twin LNB. Since you already have 2 rcvrs, that means you already have 2 cables coming down, those 2 cables can go right into the new dish, no switches required, an directly into the 211k's. Also, the 211k will take your OTA (Over The Air) ANT feed also, an incorporate both into your dish SAT rcvr. No longer will u need to tune to the local TV for Local channels, they'll be right there in your dish rcvr and still FOR FREE. If you still want DVR capability, you can also purchase external HD's for both rcvrs, or just 1 if u just want 1 of them to be able to DVR. Couple of requirments for EXT drives is that they are USB 2.0 an no larger that 2tb. I picked up a couple of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?gclid=CKKs5sLt470CFUoV7AodcwcAOA&Item=N82E16822136573&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-All+External+Hard+Drives-_-N82E16822136573&ef_id=UnmkUgAAAa-zsh0R:20140416012918:s (The 211's will still work fine on Western ARC: 119/110)

And again, as far I know, there is still a $40 enabling fee (one time fee) to allow you to turn the 211k's into DVRS, but that's a 1 time fee PER ACCOUNT, not per recvr, and you will NOT incur any monthly DVR fee w/ that. And the nice thing about going to all this trouble yourself: The only conversation you need to have w/ DISH is to deactivate your OLD rcvrs/activate your NEW rcvrs.

Oh yeah, the $7 fee for the 2nd rcvr would be there regardless of owned/leased. That fee is simply for the privledge of having a 2nd rcvr.


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## harsh

shadough said:


> I'm not aware that dish has stopped the $40 enabling fee.


The $40 DVR enabling fee is alive and well on the ViP211 receivers (and _only_ the ViP211s).


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## mwdxer

My owned 211k is still covered under the insurance through Dish, so if it fails, they will replace my receiver for free and it is still owned. That protects Dish as you will still be their customer. Otherwise, if your receiver fails and you did not want to buy a new one, you may want to switch to cable or Direct. The CSR told me that sometime ago. The owned receivers are not that common, so including them under their insurance is no big deal. Also it keeps their customers happy. I have always had good service with Dish. That is one reason I have stayed with them for the past 16 years.


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## thomasjk

harsh said:


> OTA modules cost money. The ViP211 and ViP211k don't require this additional $30+ investment.


I was responding to nuts post where he was told to ask for a 211z. I agree with you.


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## nuts

Here's how a Social Media Rep over at dish just summed it up.

Option #1
One DuoDVR ViP 722k receiver
$7/month DVR fee + $10.00/month HD Signal fee


Option #2.
Two Solo ViP 211k receivers
$7/month for second receiver + $10.00/month HD signal fee
If later one decides to add an external Harddrive to the 211k, pay a one time activation fee ($40).
The $40 fee as well is an account level fee so you would pay $40 once, no matter how many 211 receivers you have on the account hooked up to external hard drives. 211k is a one tuner DVR so if you are recording you cannot watch live.


You will never have more than one DVR fee per account no matter how many DVR receivers are on the account.

The single tuner side can be a little bit of a bummer, but when it is recording a show you can access other DVR recordings on the hard drive.
The 722 could get into that situation as well. If you are recoridng something on TV1 and someone is watching something else on TV2 you will be watching a DVR recording on TV1 or watching what is recording.

Some customers have posted that they got Dish to not charge them a $10 monthly HD signal fee. YMMV.


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## nuts

shadough said:


> I'm not aware that dish has stopped the $40 enabling fee. I paid the fee a couple yrs ago.
> 
> It sounds like you want to maintain your "Owned" status for the recvrs. Only way to do that is to purchase the rcvrs yourself. Also sounds like you want keep your 'grandfathered' status. Therefore you will not be able to upgrade to HD. And, yea there definitely is a DVR fee if you get a rcvr w/ an internal HD, I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned by any of your CSR's, or been brought up sooner in this thread. I'm not sure what the DVR fee is up to, is it $10???
> 
> So, my suggestion for you, goto: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=DISH211K&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base&gclid=CJHukpLtisQCFYVAaQody64AXQ
> Purchase 2 vip211k rcvrs ($90 each), assuming you still want to maintain "OWNED" status. Otherewise, take the LEASED ones from dish, the advantage w/ LEASE is if they break, Dish will replace, Owned rcvrs if broken, you replace them. Which is why dish will only send you LEASED rcvrs.
> 
> While your on that site, purchase a dish500 dish an upgrade the dish yourself, w/ a DP twin LNB. Since you already have 2 rcvrs, that means you already have 2 cables coming down, those 2 cables can go right into the new dish, no switches required, an directly into the 211k's. Also, the 211k will take your OTA (Over The Air) ANT feed also, an incorporate both into your dish SAT rcvr. No longer will u need to tune to the local TV for Local channels, they'll be right there in your dish rcvr and still FOR FREE. If you still want DVR capability, you can also purchase external HD's for both rcvrs, or just 1 if u just want 1 of them to be able to DVR. Couple of requirments for EXT drives is that they are USB 2.0 an no larger that 2tb. I picked up a couple of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?gclid=CKKs5sLt470CFUoV7AodcwcAOA&Item=N82E16822136573&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-All+External+Hard+Drives-_-N82E16822136573&ef_id=UnmkUgAAAa-zsh0R:20140416012918:s (The 211's will still work fine on Western ARC: 119/110)
> 
> And again, as far I know, there is still a $40 enabling fee (one time fee) to allow you to turn the 211k's into DVRS, but that's a 1 time fee PER ACCOUNT, not per recvr, and you will NOT incur any monthly DVR fee w/ that. And the nice thing about going to all this trouble yourself: The only conversation you need to have w/ DISH is to deactivate your OLD rcvrs/activate your NEW rcvrs.
> 
> Oh yeah, the $7 fee for the 2nd rcvr would be there regardless of owned/leased. That fee is simply for the privledge of having a 2nd rcvr.


As posted earlier, the driver of the Dish van handed me the reflector 20-1/2 x 22-1/4 (black), a DishPro Plus, the arm and screws. He didn't have a 40' ladder on the truck. Plus it was just miserable outside.
As you also mentioned, what I like about the DishPro Plus is that it has a built in DISH Pro Adaptor which will allow this switch to be used with any DISH Network receiver including older legacy equipment. If the weather clears up, I'll go up through the hatch and hook it up and see how it behaves with the 3700 and 2700 and see if I get the 110, which I should.
I realize that the 3700 and 2700 will be non functional by May. I'm just testing what he gave me.

The Dish system we have is not for me. I do not watch TV. It's my sister's setup and I appreciate all the feedback. I do realize it's her decision whether to go HD and or if she wants DVR. I'm just collecting all the necessary information about hardware and programming packages and then discuss them with her so we can move forward before May. I have not looked into Dish since 2008. So I'm playing catch up here with the hardware changes and packages.
One thing I hate is a Rep over the phone pushing a product they themselves no nothing about. As someone posted on another forum the Dish customers know more about the product than the CSRs. They are basically reading from a script. The less the customers know about the product they are being sold the better for the company.


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## mwdxer

The 211k with the OTA tuner, is really dual tuner, but there is only the one tuner with the dish channels, the other OTA.


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## shadough

yea, I was going to point that out also, that w/ the 211k (and Ive had mine for almost 3 yrs, never a problem) you've got 1 SAT tuner, 1 OTA tuner, so you can record Off-air while watching a SAT channel, or vice versa. The same can be done on the 722k: with the 722k you would need to also purchase the internal OTA Module which can be had for as lil as $35, an that would give you 2 OTA tuners, in additions to the 2 SAT tuners, record upto 4 things at once, or if split to 2 location (DUAL mode) each location would have 1 SAT tuner an 1 OTA tuner. I myself have a 722k, in addition to my 211k, as well as a 922k. I'm on my 3rd 922k, but original 211 an 722. I've got the external drive for the 211, as well as an external for the 722/922 that can be moved to either one. I almost maxed out my external (1tb) but have since 'caught up' an free up some space. BUT, the NCAA tourney is coming up, an that's gonna eat up some drive space. hrm. need to get busy an burn more stuff to dvd. Lesson learned: Spring for the 2 tb


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## david_jr

I would definitely look into getting free HD if that is what your sister wants. It requires Auto Pay, which is you giving them a credit card number and they charge your card every month automatically. For me that is worth $10 month savings for HD. Last I knew they were still doing this although not sure if it is free for life or free for two years. If she's got HD TVs she would be better served with HD, SD is abysmal in my opinion.


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## shadough

Only problem w/ that is they will also upgrade her TV package to include locals, which will entail an additional $5 a month fee. Being in a grandfathered package, she is paying $5 less than what we pay and an HD upgrade would negate grandfathered status.

Back to this threads subject at hand, posted a few pages back, someone got a 512 for their 510. Nice upgrade. Would consider that an upgrade since the 512 has 2 tuners an not 1. Would that entail an additional tuner fee? Or does upgrading from a 510 to 512 remain the same? fee wise. Since the 512 is a solo rcvr an doesn't have the 2 room functionally of its sister rcvrs (522/625), I would think it would NOT raise your SAT bill for the 2nd tuner charge, as dish now bills per tuner and not per rcvr like they did a few yrs back. Of course if its the only rcvr on the account, the point is moot. Just curious. I was thinking of swapping my 510 for the 625 but I might consider the 512 as an alternative.


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## nuts

Thanks guys. 
More show and rain. unreal.
I was just discussing with her all the options.

In reference to the grandfather package, the last CSR I had spoken with said she will note that if we opt for a DuoDVR Vip 722k or 211k, the current grandfathered package will stay the same price wise. I think I may have recorded that conversation. But I'm waiting for the next CSR to say the CSR I was speaking with made a mistake by saying that. Even though she made a notation of it in our account.

A former Dish customer over a Dish said he had them drop the $10 HD fee even without having autopay. YMMV.

I just installed the Dish reflector ond the DPPro Twin... made the necessary adjustments, and now the 3700 and 2700 sees both 119 and 110.
I know it's a waste to do it now. Fingers were frozen, but I just wanted to do.

If she decides to stay with SD and we get two 311, then the setup on the roof is fine now.

If she decides on HD, then the two 211k may be the best option. No new wiring from what I understand. What I didn't like about having the DuoDVR Vip 722k, that would require drilling another hole or making the existing hole in one of the windows to connect one tv on the fist floor to the second tv on the second floor. 

Question on the OTA tuner in the 211k.
If having any HD receiver means by default the customer will be paying for a package with local channels. Doesn't that mean that all HD boxes are equip for it handle locals with the dish channels.

Looking at a googled image of the rear on the 211k, I see the input for the OTA from the regular antenna.
So if one has a 211k and they are paying for locals by default, what's the advantage of having the OTA input on the 211k?
If you're paying for local channels with Dish, aren't those channels being carried through the same sat input along with all other channels?

I can see where if someone had a grandfathered package as an example, went out and purchased a 211k and was using it's second OTA tuner to connect to the regular antenna. Then i can see where it was a win win situation for having that box. You wouldn't have to kill the dish to get back on the TV tuner to watch your local channels.


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## James Long

DISH only carries the main feed of most OTA channels. If there are subchannels in a market you would not receive them via DISH. But with an OTA tuner, you would receive the main channel and sub channels of any station you can receive with your OTA antenna.

The following are the stations carried by DISH vis aatellite in the NYC market:
*New York, NY*
2-00 WCBS NEW YORK, NY (CBS) - 8101 SD 119° 20 *A* 6301 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
3-00 WJLP - 8121 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6309 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
4-00 WNBC NEW YORK, NY (NBC) - 8102 SD 119° 20 *A* 6302 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
5-00 WNYW NEW YORK, NY (FOX) - 8103 SD 119° 20 *A* 6303 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
7-00 WABC NEW YORK, NY (ABC) - 8100 SD 119° 20 *A* 6300 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
9-00 WWOR SECAUCUS, NJ (MYTV) - 8105 SD 119° 20 *A* 6307 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
11-00 WPIX NEW YORK, NY (CW) - 8104 SD 119° 20 *A* 6304 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
13-00 WNET NEWARK, NJ (PBS) - 8106 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6306 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
21-00 WLIW GARDEN CITY, NY (PBS) - 8112 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6317 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
31-00 WPXN NEW YORK, NY (ION) - 8120 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6319 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
39-00 AZNY NEW YORK, NY (Azteca) - 8118 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 8118 SD 61.5° 24s2 *A*
41-00 WXTV PATERSON, NJ (UNIVISION) - 8108 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6308 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
42-00 WZME BRIDGEPORT, CT - 8119 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 8119 SD 61.5° 22s2 *A*
47-00 WNJU LINDEN, NJ (TELEMUNDO) - 8109 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6316 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
55-00 WLNY RIVERHEAD, NY - 8107 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6314 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
58-00 WNJB NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ (PBS) - 8113 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6313 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
63-00 WMBC NEWTON, NJ - 8115 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 8115 SD 61.5° 24s2 *A*
66-00 WNYJ WEST MILFORD, NJ - 8117 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 8117 SD 61.5° 24s2 *A*
67-00 WFTY SMITHTOWN, NY (TELEFUTURA) - 8110 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6315 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*

(For other markets visit http://uplink.jameslong.name/locallist.html )

If you watch a channel or sub-channel that is not on that list you will need to use an antenna - just like you are doing today. Which is actually not a bad idea. You are accustomed to receiving satellite channels on the DISH receiver and local channels directly on the TV or through a converter box. You can continue to do that.

If you are having trouble receiving any of the channels above subscribing via satellite would help.


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## harsh

mwdxer said:


> My owned 211k is still covered under the insurance through Dish, so if it fails, they will replace my receiver for free and it is still owned.


Of course for the money you're dropping on the insurance plan, you could buy a new one every ten months and recycle the old one. You could have two leased boxes for the less money.


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## nuts

James Long said:


> DISH only carries the main feed of most OTA channels. If there are subchannels in a market you would not receive them via DISH. But with an OTA tuner, you would receive the main channel and sub channels of any station you can receive with your OTA antenna.
> 
> The following are the stations carried by DISH vis aatellite in the NYC market:
> *New York, NY*
> 2-00 WCBS NEW YORK, NY (CBS) - 8101 SD 119° 20 *A* 6301 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 3-00 WJLP - 8121 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6309 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 4-00 WNBC NEW YORK, NY (NBC) - 8102 SD 119° 20 *A* 6302 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 5-00 WNYW NEW YORK, NY (FOX) - 8103 SD 119° 20 *A* 6303 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 7-00 WABC NEW YORK, NY (ABC) - 8100 SD 119° 20 *A* 6300 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 9-00 WWOR SECAUCUS, NJ (MYTV) - 8105 SD 119° 20 *A* 6307 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 11-00 WPIX NEW YORK, NY (CW) - 8104 SD 119° 20 *A* 6304 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 13-00 WNET NEWARK, NJ (PBS) - 8106 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6306 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 21-00 WLIW GARDEN CITY, NY (PBS) - 8112 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6317 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 31-00 WPXN NEW YORK, NY (ION) - 8120 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6319 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 39-00 AZNY NEW YORK, NY (Azteca) - 8118 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 8118 SD 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 41-00 WXTV PATERSON, NJ (UNIVISION) - 8108 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6308 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 42-00 WZME BRIDGEPORT, CT - 8119 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 8119 SD 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 47-00 WNJU LINDEN, NJ (TELEMUNDO) - 8109 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6316 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 55-00 WLNY RIVERHEAD, NY - 8107 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6314 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 58-00 WNJB NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ (PBS) - 8113 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6313 *HD* 61.5° 22s2 *A*
> 63-00 WMBC NEWTON, NJ - 8115 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 8115 SD 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 66-00 WNYJ WEST MILFORD, NJ - 8117 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 8117 SD 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 67-00 WFTY SMITHTOWN, NY (TELEFUTURA) - 8110 SD 110° 20s4 *A* 6315 *HD* 61.5° 24s2 *A*
> 
> (For other markets visit http://uplink.jameslong.name/locallist.html )
> 
> If you watch a channel or sub-channel that is not on that list you will need to use an antenna - just like you are doing today. Which is actually not a bad idea. You are accustomed to receiving satellite channels on the DISH receiver and local channels directly on the TV or through a converter box. You can continue to do that.
> 
> If you are having trouble receiving any of the channels above subscribing via satellite would help.


Thanks James.
Funny you should mention the subchannels. We have three TVs. Two are hooked up to the Dish with the 3700 and 2700 models. Both of which have Sat In and TV In on the back. So we have the Dish feed going into the 3700 and 2700 as well as feed from the OTA antenna. To watch the Dish channels, we just turn on the Dish receiver. To watch the local channels, just turn off the Dish receiver.

The other TV is just connect to the OTA antenna. After I had swapped out the Dish reflector and the DP Twin, and made the necessary rescanning, all worked fine on the two Dish boxes. We are getting 119 and 110 now. All of a sudden I was informed that on the third TV which has nothing to do with Dish, they can't get I love Lucy. Huh? The Dish antenna and the regular OTA antenna are at opposite ends of the roof. I explained that I did not touch the other antenna. Anyway I just did an Autotuning on the LG and all is good. There's DTV 2-1 WCBS-HD and DTV 2-2 Decades with I love Lucy. Coincidence? Weather?

So the 211K excluding being a much newer tech box, has the same two inputs as the two legacy we have. One for SAT IN and the other for TV Antenna IN.


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## shadough

It may have the same inputs, but it has 1 major difference. On your legacy recvrs, the ANT input is simply a "PASS-THRU" input, which explains why the OTA passes thru it once you turn OFF the rcvr. On the 211, its an actual input as the recvr has its own Off Air tuner. I am not sure if it will "PASS-THRU" the ANT signal once turned off. some1 else will hafta chime in on that, my hunch is it wont but I haven't tried it myself.

As to your question, What is the point of getting Local broadcast stations from the SAT: on the 211 for example, the benefit would be the ability to record American Idol on FOX and Big bang theory on CBS at the SAME time. or watch 1, record the other. on the 722k its the ability to record something on ABC/FOX/CBS & NBC all at the same time. With only 2 sat tuners, you wouldnt be able to do that. (Course "the Hopper" rcvr has that ability/feature all ready built into it). Another advantage is if your OTA signal is having low signal issues, you can always switch over to the SAT channel, and vice-versa, when the SAT signal is blocked by snow/rain, watch the OTA channel. So as you can see, there is definitely a benefit to have both, in your sis's case however, the benefit may not be worth the extra $5 a month fee.


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## John79605

My 211k passes the antenna signals to the tv when turned off. When turned on the tv can be tuned to channel 3 for watching Dish. Much like a vcr in days of yore.


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## nuts

shadough said:


> It may have the same inputs, but it has 1 major difference. On your legacy recvrs, the ANT input is simply a "PASS-THRU" input, which explains why the OTA passes thru it once you turn OFF the rcvr. On the 211, its an actual input as the recvr has its own Off Air tuner. I am not sure if it will "PASS-THRU" the ANT signal once turned off. some1 else will hafta chime in on that, my hunch is it wont but I haven't tried it myself.
> 
> As to your question, What is the point of getting Local broadcast stations from the SAT: on the 211 for example, the benefit would be the ability to record American Idol on FOX and Big bang theory on CBS at the SAME time. or watch 1, record the other. on the 722k its the ability to record something on ABC/FOX/CBS & NBC all at the same time. With only 2 sat tuners, you wouldnt be able to do that. (Course "the Hopper" rcvr has that ability/feature all ready built into it). Another advantage is if your OTA signal is having low signal issues, you can always switch over to the SAT channel, and vice-versa, when the SAT signal is blocked by snow/rain, watch the OTA channel. So as you can see, there is definitely a benefit to have both, in your sis's case however, the benefit may not be worth the extra $5 a month fee.


Thanks Shadough. I'll pass this information on.


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## nuts

John79605 said:


> My 211k passes the antenna signals to the tv when turned off. When turned on the tv can be tuned to channel 3 for watching Dish. Much like a vcr in days of yore.


Which is exactly how we have the 3700 and 2700 hooked up for the past 15 years.
Set TV to ch. 3; Turn Dish receiver (3700 or 2700) on; Get Dish channels.
Turn Dish 3700 receiver off; get local TV channels.

So is the 211k a "pass-thru" for OTA TV? Which seems like its no different from the legacy 3700 and 2700, except for it being a more modern receiver that handles HD and the ability to add DVR capability.


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## shadough

Apparently so, it will pass thru the signal just like your Legacy rcvrs do, but it also will translate the signal an add those channels into the SAT rcvr and GUIDE.


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## 4bama

OK, I'm in the Birmingham, Al. DMA and one that got the notification that my 508 would not work after May 31.

I called and Dish sent a tech out to change out my 508...I asked for a 512 since it would work with my existing 508 UHF remotes...(I have 5 SD TV's around my house fed via a distribution amp from the 508 SD coax), my one HD TV is connected to my 622 and the only HD set I want, or need.

When the tech attempted to install the 512 Dish told him that would not work...that he had to install a 612 instead AND switch me to the Eastern Arc...(I was on Western Arc with 110, 119 and 129 sats).

Well, that was all completed and now I don't get my Birmingham locals in SD, just HD, and that HD picture looks terrible on my SD TV's.

He installed a 1000.2 which scans in 61.5 and 72 and uses 2 DPP.2 EA switches. The 77 sat does not scan in. (I think a 1000.4 is needed for this installation).

My question is what satellite is the Birmingham SD locals on in the Eastern Arc...or do I lose them by switching to the Eastern Arc? If they are on the 77 satellite then don't I need the 1000.4 dish?

To top that off my 5 UHF remotes from my 508 will not work with the 612....the Tech opened every receiver box he has and finally got 5 UHF remotes that will work with the 612...

Anyway, do I lose my Birmingham SD locals, or do I need 77 to get them..

Thanks..


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## RBA

You lose SD. But the question is why do your locals in HD look bad when down converted to SD? I have a 612 with a home distribution system, channel 3 looks good on my SD TVs.

Your not missing anything on 77, I think the only thing left is Spanish programming if you subscribe to it.


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## harsh

4bama said:


> Well, that was all completed and now I don't get my Birmingham locals in SD, just HD, and that HD picture looks terrible on my SD TV's.


You might try switching the ViP612 output mode back and forth between HD and SD. My ViP622 did a good job of downconverting.


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## 4bama

harsh said:


> You might try switching the ViP612 output mode back and forth between HD and SD. My ViP622 did a good job of downconverting.


Is there a menu option to switch the 612 back and forth between HD and SD? I don't see that.. I don't have any HD outputs connected on the 612...only the coax output set for channel 4.

The 612 down-converts the HD locals OK but leaves a bar at the top and bottom of the picture...I switch it to "Full zoom" mode and it slightly over-fills the screen...only two modes for watching an HD channel on a SD TV is "Normal" and "Full Zoom".

Channels that are available in both HD and SD, like TWC, look good when I tune the SD feed...so "Full Zoom" is my best option for watching HD channels on SD TV's...

I thought (or hope) that my SD locals would be switched from existing 110 to 62 or 72 like the current 129 HD locals are being switched to 62...


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## shadough

You would need a 2nd dish aimed at 110 I suspect (haven't checked but I'm guessing your locals in SD are on that bird), then you'd need a multiswitch to integrate 61/72/110. The 512 would of only worked on western ARC I do believe, even the rcvr u got would of worked on Western ARC, so that was BS. Now wiring on the otherhand might of been the issue. Not sure what kind of wiring you had in place, or what kind of LNB was on your dish, but if only 1 cable was ran to the 508, a 2nd would be needed for the 512 to work completely, or an LNB that was DishProPlus. Hell it would of worked fine on only 1 tuner, I think the 512 is billed as a rcvr that CAN be used as either a 2 tuner or 1 tuner rcvr, if I'm remembering the manual as I read it correctly. I'm sure the tech only had Eastern ARC equipment and just wanted to get you on E. ARC. Most likely he took off your old dish an put the new 1 on it, so you'd need to purchase an install a dish300, like this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=02&p=KIT-500DUAL&d=DISH-Network-DISH300-Satellite-Antenna-with-Legacy-Dual-Ouput-LNBF-(LEGDUAL)&c=DISH Network Dishes&sku= Course they're out of stock. A dish 500 would work also, an then a multiswitch, depending on your setup, a DP34, DPP44. to combined the 3 orbital locations.


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## harsh

4bama said:


> The 612 down-converts the HD locals OK but leaves a bar at the top and bottom of the picture...I switch it to "Full zoom" mode and it slightly over-fills the screen...only two modes for watching an HD channel on a SD TV is "Normal" and "Full Zoom".


I gather that you're trying to zoom the 16x9 image to fill the SD screen. I recommend you not go there as you're lopping off more than 1/3rd of the picture.

AFAIK, there are no SD counterparts of HD channels on the EA.

The output format is in the setup menu. You choose from 480, 720 and 1080 modes.


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## shadough

Pressing the * button I think, changes the orientation of the image, from stretch to partial zoom, zoom, etc. I think its the * button, whatever button is under the #7 key on the remote


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## 4bama

shadough said:


> You would need a 2nd dish aimed at 110 I suspect (haven't checked but I'm guessing your locals in SD are on that bird), then you'd need a multiswitch to integrate 61/72/110. The 512 would of only worked on western ARC I do believe, even the rcvr u got would of worked on Western ARC, so that was BS.


Well, I tried that approach with Dish, telling them I wanted a 512 because I did not need, nor want, HD channels on that receiver and to leave me on the Western Arc.

That's when they revealed the "rest of the story", aka Paul Harvey, and told me that I had to be switched to the Eastern Arc because Birmingham HD channels on 129 were not going to be available after May 31st, but on 61...and that would mean my 622 would lose all HD locals then if I stayed on the Western Arc.

So, unless Dish moves my local SD channels from 110 to 61, or 72/77, I'm stuck with what I got...


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## harsh

shadough said:


> Pressing the * button I think, changes the orientation of the image, from stretch to partial zoom, zoom, etc. I think its the * button, whatever button is under the #7 key on the remote


The asterisk button isn't what I was talking about. That just tinkers with the scaling on a channel by channel basis.


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## 4bama

harsh said:


> AFAIK, there are no SD counterparts of HD channels on the EA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AFAIK, there are no SD counterparts of HD channels on the EA.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's not true...like I said, TWC is a good example...The HD feed for 214 is on 72, the SD feed for TWC is on 61.5...both are channel 214. If I select he SD 214 from 61.5 the picture is perfect in normal mode for a 4x3 display...the HD feed on 72 has the black bar at top and bottom...
Click to expand...


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## 4bama

harsh said:


> The asterisk button isn't what I was talking about. That just tinkers with the scaling on a channel by channel basis.


Just below the "Select" button on the 612 UHF remote is 4 buttons, colored from left to right as Red, Green, Yellow and Blue..

The Blue button toggles SD (Coax Output TV-1) from "Normal" to "Full Zoom"...the Yellow button toggles HD from "Normal" to "Full Zoom".

The Red and Green buttons have no effect on format for the coax output for TV-1 (which I use) so I assume they will do the same thing for TV-2 if used...

The asterisk button does the same thing.


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## scooper

#1 - Dish is not putting *ANY* SD locals on Eastern Arc if there is an HD feed available - the only SD locals you will get on Eastern arc are channels that are not available in HD . If you want to get the Birmingham SD locals on 119/110 (you need to check which ones they're on), you can put up a wing dish to get them. I'm doing exactly that (Raleigh SD locals are on 110). You should be able to put up that wing dish and hook it to an input feed on the EA LNB put there for that purpose (assuming no more receivers than there are outputs on that LNB).

#2 - Viewing the HD locals - on a non-hd set - you will normally see them in Letterbox (top and bottom black with picture in between them). If you can find a setting called ZOOM , that wlll fill the vertical space at the expense of cutting off the sides of the 16x9 picture (which is what dish did for your SD locals). You may find that you need to get a separate modulator that feeds from the SD outputs to make this work. www.smarthome.com used to have lots of them, I haven't looked lately. Maybe getting a convertor from component to composite video plus a modulator would do what you're looking for - said convertors used to be available at www.svideo.com .

#3 - I'm suprised that you find the video quality of the HD Locals to be inferior to the SD version. On my HD TV there is a distinct advantage to the HD, and on the SD TV's it is still at least equal. Of course, the SD local does fill the SD TV screen while the HD one is in letterbox. I guess you need to define "horrible" to give the rest of us something to compare to.

#4 - Only certain DMAs need a 1000.4 dish for 77 - Birmingham is not one of those.

#5 - Instead of a 612, you probably would have been better off with a 622/722/722K that has an SD TV2 output port to connect your SD TV's to. My VIP222K (which is the same as a 722K without the Hard drive ) works pretty well on the SD output.

#6 - if the output on the 612 on the HD locals looks squeezed horizontally, try pushing the "*" until it is in "Stretch" mode to restore the proper proportions. - edit - or - you can try setting the HDTV settings on the 612 to "480i" and aspect ratio 4x3#2


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## david_jr

nuts said:


> Which is exactly how we have the 3700 and 2700 hooked up for the past 15 years.
> Set TV to ch. 3; Turn Dish receiver (3700 or 2700) on; Get Dish channels.
> Turn Dish 3700 receiver off; get local TV channels.
> 
> So is the 211k a "pass-thru" for OTA TV? Which seems like its no different from the legacy 3700 and 2700, except for it being a more modern receiver that handles HD and the ability to add DVR capability.


Keep in mind that a modulated signal on channel 3 is NOT HD. If you upgrade to HD you will need the HDMI connection to get HD.


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## scooper

That's true (and would make having a dual output DVR like the 622/722/722k more desireable ), but nuts is using the 612 to feed 5 SD TVs like he was doing with his 508. His HDTV has it's own 622.


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## 4bama

scooper said:


> That's true (and would make having a dual output DVR like the 622/722/722k more desireable ), but nuts is using the 612 to feed 5 SD TVs like he was doing with his 508. His HDTV has it's own 622.


I'm only using the 612 because Dish refused my request to install a 512....later told me that I would lose Birmingham locals with a 512 because I also had to be switched to the Eastern Arc, which of course, does not carry the SD locals. And that I could not stay on the Western Arc because the Birmingham HD channels would be lost on 129 later this year.

The HD locals look OK on a SD set in letterbox format...but "Full Zoom" is the only other option and that degrades the picture quality....it's still watchable and that's the option I use now...The channels that are dual transmitted or SD only look perfect on my SD sets with no formatting needed..so I'll live with my HD locals in full zoom mode...


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## RBA

The full zoom mode is your reason for SD degradation your stretching the information to fill the screen.


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## david_jr

scooper said:


> That's true (and would make having a dual output DVR like the 622/722/722k more desireable ), but nuts is using the 612 to feed 5 SD TVs like he was doing with his 508. His HDTV has it's own 622.


That is 4bama using a 612 to service 5 SD TV's. Nuts asked about using modulated signal from a 211K in conjunction with OTA on channel 3. I wanted him to know that a modulated signal from 211K would be SD so if he is upgrading (last I could tell he wasn't 100% sure) to HD he would need HDMI for HD signal from 211K. Yes these threads do get confusing.


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## jfree417

I also got a notice saying that my receiver was outdated and my satellite needed to be adjusted. I have a 512, and now I'm seeing here that people are receiving this same receiver as a new replacement. I questioned Dish about the 512, and was told it was not 4mb and I needed a 612. I am in one of the cities listed that needs the satellite adjusted. I am wondering if others are being sent 512's as replacements and if so, why mine is obselete all of a sudden. It is also still listed on the Dish website as a available receiver.


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## James Long

DISH wants you on Eastern Arc ... which will free up space on Western Arc for other channels.


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## scooper

What a alot of the Johnny come lately's don't realize is that Dish is doing 2 things here

#1 - the old/ obsolete SD receivers (QPSK) need to be replaced .
#1A - IF the market is going to be on the Western Arc - swapping for an SD receiver (that is 8PSK capable) can be an option. This is probably going to be for markets west of the mississippi

#2 -If the market is going to have HD stations on EASTERN Arc, It's looking like Dish is requiring any HD households to go all HD on Eastern Arc . Birmingham AL probably fell into this.


Keep in mind that Dish WILL NOT generally allow accounts to have split or dual arcs. This also got Birmingham - can't do 110/119 SD along with HD on Eastern Arc

Also for newbies - if you have questions - we need to know which TV market you receive. Something generic like "Michigan" is just about useless. We don't need to know your address (for those of you concerned about your privacy) but we do need to know what TV market (Detroit ? ) you get. This will also have the benefit of helping us to put together the overall picture to help others who come asking for help and understanding.


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## jfree417

It's Lansing MI. I currently use a 722 for my home. That is not the issue. I use a 512 in the basement on a SD TV. They want me to buy a 612 for $200 or lease it for $7 a month. I will buy one on EBay for $100 if I have to. I just don't get why that model is being sent to some people as a replacement, and they are telling me I can't use mine.


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## Stewart Vernon

jfree417 said:


> It's Lansing MI. I currently use a 722 for my home. That is not the issue. I use a 512 in the basement on a SD TV. They want me to buy a 612 for $200 or lease it for $7 a month. I will buy one on EBay for $100 if I have to. I just don't get why that model is being sent to some people as a replacement, and they are telling me I can't use mine.


I'm not sure you understood what the others were saying.

Lots of older SD receivers are being "obsoleted" by Dish... but at the same time, Dish is moving some people from western to eastern arc. The eastern arc requires the ViP or more recent receivers.

So... people who are staying with western arc can get a 512 and be fine with the changes that are coming to the western arc... but if they are going to only have your local channels on eastern arc after May, then they can't give you a 512 or let you keep a 512 after May. One of two things would happen... you would be on western arc, and the 512 would work BUT you would lose your local channels! OR they move you to eastern arc, you'd keep your local channels, BUT your 512 would not work anymore.

I don't know which markets are moving west-to-east in terms of locals... but from the sounds of your situation, you must be one of those customers... which explains why they are telling you that the 512 will soon not be something you will want to have.


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## david_jr

jfree417 said:


> It's Lansing MI. I currently use a 722 for my home. That is not the issue. I use a 512 in the basement on a SD TV. They want me to buy a 612 for $200 or lease it for $7 a month. I will buy one on EBay for $100 if I have to. I just don't get why that model is being sent to some people as a replacement, and they are telling me I can't use mine.


You should not have to purchase if they are requiring the change. I would contact a DIRT (Dish Internet Response Team) member on this site and have them check it for you or play CSR roulette until you get the upgrade free. If Dish is forcing the upgrade they always upgrade you for free. Is the 612 the receiver they offered or did you ask for an upgrade from a VIP211K possibly? If you are moving to EA and it sounds like you are you will need all VIP equipment or above (Hopper system) to be compatible with the EA. EA is all MPEG4 only.


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## jfree417

They said since we own the receiver being phased out, we don't qualify for the free upgrade to the 612. I've talked to 3 different customer service people and the price has dropped from $249 to $199 to purchase, or $7 a month to lease. They are not charging to adjust the angle of my satellite. I've been with dish for 15 years, you'd think they would just upgrade my equipment at no charge since it's them making it required.Oh well, maybe i6f I keep calling, the price will keep going down.Thanks for all your advice!


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## mwdxer

I did not buy directly from Dish when I got the 211k. I got it from Dish Depot. They had a good sale on the 211k at the time. You might check them out.


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## harsh

nuts said:


> I'm still trying to get some verification as to the replacement receivers for customers that own their legacy receivers. Will they be listed as leased or just a direct swap out. She did say there is no charge for the receivers. So why even bother listing them as leased.


In my experience, the replacements of owned boxes are owned. If you upgrade, you get leased boxes.

I recently did a Dish'n-It-Up to a Hopper w/Sling and they asked for my owned ViP622 in return even though the Hopper is leased.


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## scooper

Jfree - again - you have HD on 1 receiver => Dish will have HD only on Eastern Arc for your market => can't have Dual or split arcs (rules out the 512). However - since Dish is requiring the upgrade - they should provide it free to you for the equipment upgrade.


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## jfree417

Thanks for the info, I understand why I can't use the 512 now. However, they are not replacing my receiver for free and give the reason as because we own it. To add insult to injury, they want $249 for a 612. I found it on Dish Depot (thanks to a previous post who recommended them) for $99. I have to say it makes me pretty unhappy that they are ripping me off by not replacing a working receiver and then trying to gouge me to buy a new one. Perhaps I should think on other TV options out there


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## david_jr

All the more reason to contact a DIRT rep on this site. They are more knowledgeable than any first line CSR you will talk to on the phone. This is the first I have heard of Dish not replacing owned equipment for free when they are forcing the change. BTW $249 is WAY TOO much for a VIP612 and you will need your black tape on the front to keep the blue light from keeping you awake at night.


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## Stewart Vernon

There might be other reasons IF Dish insists on paying for the upgrade. Sometimes account/credit status comes into play in these upgrades as to who gets what offered to them.


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## jfree417

I've been a customer for 10 years, never had a late payment, and have a credit score over 800. That's what makes the whole thing so offensive.


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## Stewart Vernon

The other thing that determines offers... is the amount of your monthly bill. Fair or not, I think Dish tends to give better offers to people with higher monthly bills over time. Also, another factor can be how long it has been since your last upgrade.

Some people get an upgrade, then 6 months or a year into that want another upgrade... and I think Dish charges more for those than it would someone 2 years or more since their last upgrade offer.


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## Blowgun

Having the protection plan, and having it for awhile, may also play a roll.


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## RBA

jfree417 said:


> I've been a customer for 10 years, never had a late payment, and have a credit score over 800. That's what makes the whole thing so offensive.


You have a 512 receiver that by DISH's way of thinking is a single output receiver so the VIP 211 is probably considered the free replacement. The 612 though it is the High Definition version of a 512 may be considered by DISH to be an upgrade. If you buy a VIP612 for $100 and have to add a $100 service call to realign your existing dish how is it cheaper than the $199 DISH wants to charge you. The DISH price includes the EA dish.


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## Jim5506

If Dish is converting service for you to eastern arc, they should give you a free upgrade from the 512 to the 612 since it is the only other dual tuner single output receiver that Dish has.

Contact one of the DIRT members that lurk here and see if they can either get you a better deal or explain why you can't get a good deal.

The 211 is a downgrade from the 512 (probably cost you about $100 to make it a DVR) as far as it has no built in recording capability ($40 plus you buy an EHD) and it only has one satellite tuner while your 512 has 2 - press those two issues to whomever you contact, two sat tuners and DVR, that is what you expect to have after the conversion.


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## jfree417

We have the replacement plan thru dish for $8 a month. Have not had a upgrade in 3 years, and the 612 is the only option they offered me to replace the 512. They are not charging me to realign the satellite, just for the new receiver. Contacted DIRT, have not heard back from them in 48 hours.


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## jfree417

Is it possible to move my dvr recordings from the 512 to the 612? I have a ton of stuff I'd like to save.


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## Stewart Vernon

No... your recordings on your 512 will go away with your 512 unless you went through the arduous task of manually archiving them yourself (if you have a DVD-recorder for instance).


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## jfree417

I figured that would be the case. This just keeps getting more annoying.


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## mwdxer

Yes, I do that. When I record something to the HDD, if I want to keep it, I copy it to a DVD. It is only SD, but the Toshiba has the good Component inputs, not HDMI (only out), but still the best you can do with SD. It works for me. But of course, with any recording, it is only as good as the source. It is not hard to do, if you copy a program at the time and don't let them stack up. Then it does take a lot of extra time.


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## legak

lurking , and saw the post by " nuts" , have a 2700, 3700, 301 each purchased never leased, one installed in the house, one the shop, one in garage appartment for mom. They do not inter-connect.. Three free standing systems . HD locals provided OTA, Approx install was 96-97, no phone to any of them. 200 channel package, no movies, or ad-ons, never upgraded at my request. All have Dish 500 antennas , sw 21 's, and look at 119 and 110 . No interest in recording, or HD from sat. Locals off bird are present on 2-69, they are duplicated from 8300 to 8313 in the guide. I want to call them, they say we will ship you three new units at no charge and you can put them in yourself. This is metro Atlanta area. What's wrong with this picture ? Thanks


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## jfree417

After a week of battle, they have agreed to lease me the new receiver for free. They insist on sending a tech out to install it. Whatever, a monkey could do it, but I guess they need to realign the sat anyway.


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## harsh

legak said:


> What's wrong with this picture ?


None of the receivers will work come the end of May.

I have a hard time imagining that anyone that has three dishes is all that "metro".


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## scooper

LegalK - my guess on the receivers you would get would be the 311 - single tuner SD non-DVR receiver. If they ship you VIP211's instead - even better. Take out the old ones, install the new ones, call Dish to have the new ones activated and the old ones de-activated - recycle/trash the old ones. I'm guessing that Atlanta is one of the markets that has HD locals on both East and West.


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## david_jr

Word has it they are trying to eliminate dual arc markets. Might want to take the free upgrade to HD receivers and try to get free HD with auto pay. If you're watching HD locals you might be interested in HD sat too once you see it hard to go back to SD for most people.


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## scooper

There is "no way" I can receive 129 - OTOH - there are other people in the Raleigh Durham market who currently can't see Eastern Arc. Several years ago, I recall reading on here that the Raleigh market had one of the highest DBS penetrations in the country - something like 25% of all TV households had Dish or DirectTv. We were one of the first with locals at all.


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## Stewart Vernon

Interesting... I've lived in a few different places (two different homes in Raleigh and now in Kittrell) and I'm pretty sure I had an equally good shot at western arc or eastern arc. I was originally on western arc but had 61.5 when that's where all the HD was... then I was moved to 129 when our Raleigh LiLs in HD first went up on the 118.7 location... later they were moved off that and put onto the proper east/west arcs... and so the next time I moved I was put on eastern arc and again on eastern arc when I moved last year.

I could see possibilities of having trees in the way in some of the rural areas... but other than that I thought both arcs were pretty solid in NC.


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## scooper

It's a tree issue for me on 129 - 119 and 110 are fine. The trees are A - too tall B - too close C - on my neighbor's lot. Eastern Arc is no problem .


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## nuts

Hi guys,
Haven't checked back in a while. We had opted for two Vip211k receivers. What arrived just says Model 211 (silver body). The rep I had spoken with said Dish will send out 211k. I'm avoiding the 211z. Is there a Vip211 version still around.


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## shadough

http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/141472-vip211-vs-vip211k/


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## nuts

shadough said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/141472-vip211-vs-vip211k/


Thanks shadough. I had stumbled across that thread before posting here. Since it was dated from 2009, I was trying to avoid misinformation. So then I gather that the 211 and the 211k are exactly the same unit, except for size and speculation of the "k" version running cooler?

I was consumed with other tasks and they (Dish) called. My sister passed the call on to me. We decided to go with the 211k losing the grandfather package. I pointed out that I don't need locals from Dish and from what I gather on this thread, their locals are subpar to the free locals I get in NYC, with sub channels included.
The rep applied a few discounts for a couple of months and I asked for HD for life. free without autopay.

What I'm curious about is the OTA tuner. I guess I can make up for sub channels by connecting my antenna to the box.

Also I asked the rep (not that I was expecting an accurate answer, but decided to ask anyway) are they pointing the reflector to the Eastern Arc in NYC for HD. Silence. I've yet to see any Dish reflector around here pointing eastward. As I drive around three of the Boroughs all the dishes are still pointing West. So I'm asking myself if we (NYC customers) are getting our HD on the Western Arc.

I think someone here had responded that possibly NYC customers will be getting HD from the Eastern Arc.

With the current programming package we have and the Showtime add on, some of the channels say HD. So I figured that these channels are being broadcast in SD and HD. Since we still have/had the legacy receivers and no subscription to HD there was no way to test.

I guess I'll find out once I hook up one of the 211 that they sent. Prior to posting here I had called DISH to point out that they sent me Vip211, but it was agreed that they will send me Vip211k. They are suppose to call back. Should I insist on having these 211 switch out for the 211k.

Also a tech is scheduled to show up here with a DuoDVR ViP 722k. I have no idea what that's about. All I had said to the rep was that with a DuoDVR ViP 722k, I would have to drill another hole through the window sill to connect the other TV to the room with the DuoDVR ViP 722k. Apparently she decided to send some tech out with a DuoDVR ViP 722k to go over what I just said. If we decide on the DuoDVR ViP 722k, then I can ship back the two 211.


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## scooper

Nuts - we've heard that about NYC as well (Eastern Arc for HD). However, with the exception of a lack of HD programming, your HD receivers will work with the Dish500 you were using before. I'd be on Dish about getting you a DishHD dish setup ASAP, even if that means a change to Eastern Arc. You're not going to lose any channels going EA (well, SD versions of locals that are available in HD). If you can aim a dish, you can even use your current Dish500 as an interim EA dish (yes, I HAVE done this - signal strength isn't great but it will work in a pinch).


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## shadough

Keep in mind w/ a VIP722K, you will be billed a monthly DVR FEE. With the 211's u can get an external HD and use them as DVRs without a monthly DVR FEE. The built-in OTA ANT in the 211 will basically just ADD all of the local channels your ANT can see, as well as all the SUB channels, integrate them nicely into your guide and viewable thru the recvr. so for example, CBS-2 will have Sat ch 2, OTA cha 2.01, and any subchannels 2.02, 03 etc.

To get HD channels, at the very least you'd need a 2nd dish aimed at either 129 or 72. (an then of course a switch to incorporate all the orbitals) or a 1k.x dish for either WA or EA. There are a couple of HD channels on 110/119 but less than 10 I would say. As to drilling a new hole in the window sill, not necessary. With a new dish ProPlus LNB, only 1 line is needed to each rcvr, even if its a DUAL TUNER rcvr such as the 722k. And even that 1 line can be used to back feed the "second room" feed from a 722k to another room. I'd let the installer mess w/ that unless u've got a good handle on the use of diplexers/triplexers/seperators.


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## nuts

Thank you scooper and shadough. I finally found some time this evening and was googling for some information, but it looks like shadough has answered what I needed to know.

A little background, we have dish from 1999 because here in Brooklyn, NYC, cable wasn't available and it was pre FIOS. The neighborhood is changing and FIOS is still not available for the houses at the end of the block.

My dad ordered the Dish package in 1999 and I installed everything. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, in 2008, I realized that for the programming package they had, only orbital 119 was being picked up. Apparently my dad had added the showtime component, and two or three channels from that component was on orbital 110.

I did my homework and realized that I needed a Twin LNBF and a new reflector. What we have/had was a single eye LNBF and a reflector that measured 18". There is no marking on it to say Dish 300. But I guess that's what it is or older.

Anyway I contacted Dish back in 2008 and explained the situation. I even had to brief their tech support as to what I needed interns of a DP34 switch and DP Adapters for the two legacy receivers (2700 & 3700) if it wasn't a DishPro Plus Twin LNBF. They said they would send out what I needed, since I Installed everything myself. But I never received them. I was consumed with other issues and forgot about it.

I generally don't watch TV, the setup was for my dad and sister. I'm more of a computer junkie.
The setup has two cables from the LNBF, one leading to a bedroom. Hole was drilled in the window sill. The other leads to the living room. Hole was drilled in the window sill. The bedroom now has a Samsung LCD 32" 720p and the living room is still connected to the Sony 36" XBR SD with a converter box. That one was what my dad enjoyed watching. My mom now watches another Samsung LCD 32" 720p in the dining room that's solely connected to the antenna on the roof. She enjoys just watching locals. Doesn't seem to be interested in watching satellite TV.

Since my sister is still paying the additional $7/month for the other box, and no one is watching it, I feel that it's a waste of money. Yes, I was just about to hook that Dish box up to the other Samsung 32" that my mom watches.

At this point the 36" Sony XBR (300 lbs) is just taking up space. I was planning on picking up a 55" 1080p on Black Friday. But until I can make arrangements to get rid of that 36" Sony (it's in mint condition), I held off.

Even though, we opted for two solo Vip 211 (k), I feel that the Samsungs will benefit from the HD signal. Yes, I know some people like to say that 1080p is HD. But 720p is still HD for a 32" and they see the difference with local HD broadcast from the antenna on the roof. Or DVD viewing.

As I mentioned a month back, while I was cleaning snow from the sidewalk, a Dish van was passing by, I struck up a conversation with the driver and he handed me a DishPro Plus Twin LNBF and a reflector. This reflector is black and measures 22-1/4 x 20-1/2. I don't see any marking on it to tell me what model it is, but it was said to me that it's the latest reflector, possibly a 1000.x.

Two days later after some of the snow melted, in freezing temperature, I swapped out the old legacy reflector and single eye LNBF for the new black reflector and DishPro Plus Twin LNBF. I went into setup and re-scanned (2700 & 3700 receivers) and for the past month she has been receiving 119 and 110. I did this because I just wanted to see if it would work even though things will be swapped out eventually.

I stored the old 18" reflector and single eye LNBF in the garage.

I haven't hooked up any of the two 211 that was sent to me. I had called and requested 211k. But after searching, I see that they are probably the same, except for size (211 and 211k). My thought was that if I were to hook up one of the 211 and had it activated, with the current black reflector and the DishPro Plus Twin LNBF, would i be able to see 129? I know i would probably need a triple eye. But also, I think there are some HD on 119 and 110, would we be able to get those now in HD?

In reference to having a 722k as an alternative, shadough, are you saying that there is no need to drill another hole in the window sill of the room that would have the 722k, because they can back feed it to through the second cable, if the two cables are utilized as before. Or just have a diplexer/triplexer/separator setup outside/inside the window of the room where the 772k would be placed?

Again, I'm trying to get a handle on how the 722k placed in a room, with a cable that leads to the reflector on the roof, communicates with the second TV in another room. My understanding from the reps on the phone was that, the existing cable from the other TV (room) that went back to the LNBF on the roof, would now have to be connected directly to the 722k instead. Thus having to drill a second hole to receive that cable or make the existing hole bigger and feed it along side the other RG-6 that the 722k would be connected to the reflector. But it sounds like you're saying my current set up of two cables, one from each room that leads to the reflector/ DishPro Plus Twin LNBF on the roof can be utilized that way to communicate with the second TV via the reflector/ DishPro Plus Twin LNBF. Or having a splitter/separator/diplex/triplex placed outside/inside the window of the room where the 722k would be, and have the connection/communication done that way. 

I explained to my sister the differences between the ViP211 and the ViP722k. It would make sense if she was interested in recording shows. We still have two VCRs hooked up to the Samsung and the Sony that have the legacy receivers. But she told me she hasn't used them for some time.

Again, with this upgrade, I'm trying to be practical and move forward at the same time. The 311s seem like they will be phased out soon. I get the feeling that all Dish customers will be required to have an HD capable receiver, even though they may still have an SD TV.


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## david_jr

You will be hard pressed to get 129 if you live near NYC. You mention you don't see reflectors pointing east to NYC, but HD on EA will actually be just about due south from you. If you have not done so I would recommend going to Dishpointer.com. Put in your address and click multi LNB setup and select the EA dish for 61.5, 72 & 77. That will tell you exactly what way you have to point from your location. You can even move the cursor around and put it over your house. You do not need 77 satellite as there is very little on it except for a few locals in CONUS and some international stuff so you just want to point to 61.5 and 72.7 most likely.


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## KyL416

Yeah prior to the debut of the split arcs, the standard for NYC HD was 110+119 and a seperate dish pointed at 61.5. If I'm reading James's listing correctly, for NYC the HD locals are only available via 61.5.


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## Michael P

"NW PA" is probably Erie. They used to be on 105 or 121 back in the day. If satcrazy loses his locals on EA then he is not in a true "either/or" region. I'm right next door in the Cleveland DMA, that one is truly and either/or region.


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## James Long

KyL416 said:


> Yeah prior to the debut of the split arcs, the standard for NYC HD was 110+119 and a seperate dish pointed at 61.5. If I'm reading James's listing correctly, for NYC the HD locals are only available via 61.5.


Correct ... NYC HD locals are Eastern Arc only.


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## nuts

david_jr said:


> You will be hard pressed to get 129 if you live near NYC. You mention you don't see reflectors pointing east to NYC, but HD on EA will actually be just about due south from you. If you have not done so I would recommend going to Dishpointer.com. Put in your address and click multi LNB setup and select the EA dish for 61.5, 72 & 77. That will tell you exactly what way you have to point from your location. You can even move the cursor around and put it over your house. You do not need 77 satellite as there is very little on it except for a few locals in CONUS and some international stuff so you just want to point to 61.5 and 72.7 most likely.


Dave, I just did it. Typed in my address and selected multi LNB. Here's what was displayed:
Most Popular Satellites in US (flag)
1. 119W DIRECTV 7S | ECHOSTAR 14 | ECHOSTAR 7
2. 110W DIRECTV 5 (TEMPO 1) | ECHOSTAR 10 | ECHOSTAR 11
3. 97W GALAXY 19 (G-19)
4. 61.5W ECHOSTAR 12 (RAINBOW 1) | ECHOSTAR 16 | ECHOSTAR 3
5. 91W GALAXY 17 (G-17)

I then selected #4 (61.5W ECHOSTAR 12 (RAINBOW 1) | ECHOSTAR 16 | ECHOSTAR 3)
and the line pointed due south of where I currently have it for (119/110).

Again, with all the push for upgrading their customers, I've yet to see any Dish on rooftops and apartment buildings here in Brooklyn, aimed eastward. I thought from several of the comments here that for customers in NYC area (five boroughs) that for them to get HD, they will be directed to the Eastern Arc. I've yet to see any Dish pointing in that direction.
One thing, I find myself looking at roofs and apartment buildings more in the last month than in 35+ years and I'm amazed how many reflectors I see. Unreal. That includes Direct TV and DISH.
Cable was the big thing in NYC for years and 20 years ago Fiber was already hitting Long Island and Manhattan, for obvious reasons. But there were some areas of the boroughs that didn't have cable, thus why we have Dish. But I didn't expect Satellite TV to be this popular in a major metro area as NY. If it's about content, then I'm out of the loop. As I mentioned, I haven't watch TV in over 12 years or so. Last TV show I saw during is original run was Seinfeld and before that was Cheers.

These days my access for info is the internet.


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## nuts

James Long said:


> Correct ... NYC HD locals are Eastern Arc only.


Hi James. So SD locals in NYC are still on the 119/110?
I'm wondering if most DISH customers in NYC are either pulling their locals from their antenna on their roofs and feeding it through the OTA tuner if they have a newer receiver and not bothering to have their DISH aimed at the EA, even though they may be paying for a program that has locals included. Or if they don't have an antenna, just settling for the SD locals through DISH, if SD locals are still on 119/110.

Again, I primarily see most, if not all, reflectors (500; 1000.x etc) in Brooklyn and Queens still aiming at the 119/110.


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## scooper

For the time being, yes, just about all SD locals are on 119/110 (some are on 129 - see Erie PA apparently).


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## nuts

scooper said:


> For the time being, yes, just about all SD locals are on 119/110 (some are on 129 - see Erie PA apparently).


The reason I'm curious is that in the last few weeks on this forum I've learn a lot about Dish packages and newer Sats. But some of the neighbors I engage in brief conversation about Dish and the upgrade doesn't seem to know what they have, what they are paying for etc.
To me it's like paying for a full tank of gas, yet you were given a half a tank and no one bothers to look at the gauge and ask questions.

May 31 st. is the deadline. So I'm asking myself, our house can't possibly be the only house in all of Brooklyn (or for that matter NYC) that has legacy receivers and requires an upgrade. Yet I see on roof tops and apartment buildings, reflectors labeled (500, Dish HD etc). So these people must have newer receivers for the pass couple of years and paying for the latest package, with locals included and possibly HD, so why are the majority of these dishes (reflectors) still aimed in the direction of 119/110. What am I missing here.

Some people like to boast how they have the latest and greatest receivers for HD and DVR etc etc, and paying for a package that has locals and paying for HD (if they weren't lucky to have it tossed in for free with or without autopay), yet the reflector on their house is aimed in the same direction as my sister's who's on a grandfather package with legacy receivers from 1999.

I've seen situations where people just don't know, or understand or ashamed to just ask and end up getting ripped off on buying any product. Probably the #1 scenario is when buying a new car.

Just dealing with the reps on the phone, they don't seem to have a clue other than just trying to push a product at any cost. One gets more information from forums like this.

I would imagine that many of these customers around NYC have had full HD receivers for the past couple of years, and if so are paying for a package that includes HD, so wouldn't they have benefited by having their reflectors on the EA. Unless I misunderstood the availability of EA for NYC customers. But that still wouldn't make sense...why would Dish charge its customers for something they can't deliver at this time.


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## KyL416

The May 31st deadline is just for receiver swaps for those who still have QPSK receivers.

The other deadline isn't until later this year, however NYC isn't on the list of markets for conversion, so SD locals will still be available for those on the western arc. The migration is for markets that will lose locals completely if they remain on the western arc:
http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/214566-satellite-changes-coming-may-31st-2015/#entry3297553


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## James Long

If they still have the old two eye "Dish 500" chances are that they are only paying for SD service and are getting what they are paying for. Or they could have cancelled service a long time ago and not removed the dishes. It is hard to say without interviewing each person with a dish.

I am in an Eastern Arc market and we have had HD locals for several years off of Eastern Arc yet I still see a lot of obsolete dishes aimed west. I have not knocked on doors to see if the owners are still customers.


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## david_jr

nuts said:


> Dave, I just did it. Typed in my address and selected multi LNB. Here's what was displayed:
> Most Popular Satellites in US (flag)
> 1. 119W DIRECTV 7S | ECHOSTAR 14 | ECHOSTAR 7
> 2. 110W DIRECTV 5 (TEMPO 1) | ECHOSTAR 10 | ECHOSTAR 11
> 3. 97W GALAXY 19 (G-19)
> 4. 61.5W ECHOSTAR 12 (RAINBOW 1) | ECHOSTAR 16 | ECHOSTAR 3
> 5. 91W GALAXY 17 (G-17)
> 
> I then selected #4 (61.5W ECHOSTAR 12 (RAINBOW 1) | ECHOSTAR 16 | ECHOSTAR 3)
> and the line pointed due south of where I currently have it for (119/110).
> 
> Again, with all the push for upgrading their customers, I've yet to see any Dish on rooftops and apartment buildings here in Brooklyn, aimed eastward. I thought from several of the comments here that for customers in NYC area (five boroughs) that for them to get HD, they will be directed to the Eastern Arc. I've yet to see any Dish pointing in that direction.
> One thing, I find myself looking at roofs and apartment buildings more in the last month than in 35+ years and I'm amazed how many reflectors I see. Unreal. That includes Direct TV and DISH.
> Cable was the big thing in NYC for years and 20 years ago Fiber was already hitting Long Island and Manhattan, for obvious reasons. But there were some areas of the boroughs that didn't have cable, thus why we have Dish. But I didn't expect Satellite TV to be this popular in a major metro area as NY. If it's about content, then I'm out of the loop. As I mentioned, I haven't watch TV in over 12 years or so. Last TV show I saw during is original run was Seinfeld and before that was Cheers.
> 
> These days my access for info is the internet.
> 
> Don't select # 4. Click Multi LNB setup, then click the down arrow and select Dish 1000.4 (61.5W, 72.7W, 77W). Yes from NYC area this should be just about due south. I still see a lot of the old dishes around here in my travels. Many of them I suspect are people who never went hi-def (it does happen) and others have given up the service and never removed the dish. Most of the HD dishes I see are black, but mine is gray and was installed by a Dish Network tech. I started with a Dish 300 that I installed and have had Dish 500, Super Dish and now EA 1000.4. Mine points almost exactly due south and I am just to the northeast of you about 150 or so miles. 61.5 would have your locals, but 72.7 carries most of the national HD channels. Like you said you want to get what you're paying for even if you don't watch all of it. Even if you have antenna for locals, its nice to have it on dish too as they back each other up.


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## shadough

Yea, I would say theres quite a few SAT dishs that are just 'abandonded' an those ppl just switched back to cable. I see a lot of those myself. Heck I even offered to remove the old dishes for several ppl. It's also possible those customers have ignored the warnings an will come home on June 1st to no signal.

To answer the question about the 722K, you would use the 1 feed coming from the dish to receiver an behind the recvr install the separator, an connect both SAT inputs, then the TV2 output would be 'di-plexed' into the same single wire feed coming down from the dish, then diplex'd out @the dish using the 2nd wire that goes from the dish to the sisters room, thus allowing the TV2 feed from the 722 to your sisters room. Most 722's come w/a triplexer which is both a diplexer an separator, then u would only need an additional diplexer @the dish where the 2nd cable goes to your sisters room. So as you can see, it can be a lil complicated but do-able.

As far as E.ARC goes, don't think of it as EA, more like SA or Southern ARC as in NYC the dishes will be aimed roughly due South.

Back in '99 the Dish in use was the Dish300. I believe it was a year later when the Dish500 was introduced and all subscribers were encouraged to 'upgrade'.


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## naz

my question is , are they removing nyc locals in sd from 119 ???


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## KyL416

naz said:


> my question is , are they removing nyc locals in sd from 119 ???


NYC isn't on the list of markets to be migrated, so SD locals will still be available on 119.

The migration is only for the markets listed in this post that will lose their locals if they don't convert to the eastern arc by the end of the year:
http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/214566-satellite-changes-coming-may-31st-2015/#entry3297553

Those affected should get multiple messages via e-mail, phone, mail, bill insert, among other things long before it happens.


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## James Long

KyL416 said:


> NYC isn't on the list of markets to be migrated, so SD locals will still be available on 119.


South Bend (Indiana) is also not on the list posted ... yet DISH is pushing for a re-aim to Eastern Arc. South Bend has a similar setup with SD on WA and HD on EA.


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## scooper

Has there been any news on this lately ?


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## James Long

No big changes on the satellites yet ... still watching for any moves/changes.


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## harsh

scooper said:


> Has there been any news on this lately ?


We'll find out on Monday (at the earliest) when those who have been ignoring the repeated reminders start to get hit.


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## inkahauts

I hope dish sticks to their date and actually starts shutting stuff down. I hate when anyone keeps extending needlessly for the few people who always ignore these kinds of warnings...

Plus I'm curios to see how much this will help them with adding new channels or maybe even say deliver 4k like DIRECTV does today where it's all pushed content at the moment.


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## shadough

I tried to get my 510 DVR swapped out, to no avail. The CSR's not only told me I had to re-up another 2 yr commitment but that I had to also do the same for my 322 recvr. All I wanted was to upgrade my 510 to a 512 an get rid of my 322 (off the account), and was told that would not be possible. Either upgrade both or upgrade none. I went with none.

I'm almost anxiously awaiting the day when Superstations go away completely, so I can de-activate my account.


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## scooper

inkahauts said:


> I hope dish sticks to their date and actually starts shutting stuff down. I hate when anyone keeps extending needlessly for the few people who always ignore these kinds of warnings...
> 
> Plus I'm curios to see how much this will help them with adding new channels or maybe even say deliver 4k like DIRECTV does today where it's all pushed content at the moment.


I wouldn't count on 4K on anything but VOD / PPV for a good long while/


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## harsh

inkahauts said:


> Plus I'm curios to see how much this will help them with adding new channels or maybe even say deliver 4k like DIRECTV does today where it's all pushed content at the moment.


Replacing QPSK with 8PSK isn't a paradigm shift.

I don't think very many really want what DIRECTV is offering today in terms of UHD content and delivery. You have to be pretty hard core.


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## scooper

shadough said:


> I tried to get my 510 DVR swapped out, to no avail. The CSR's not only told me I had to re-up another 2 yr commitment but that I had to also do the same for my 322 recvr. All I wanted was to upgrade my 510 to a 512 an get rid of my 322 (off the account), and was told that would not be possible. Either upgrade both or upgrade none. I went with none.
> 
> I'm almost anxiously awaiting the day when Superstations go away completely, so I can de-activate my account.


Where are you ? The 322 should be fine if your market will still be on WA. And you should be play CSR roulette on that new 2 year commitment.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> Replacing QPSK with 8PSK isn't a paradigm shift.


Eliminating QPSK isn't doing nothing. DISH already has an "all 8PSK" Eastern Arc (one QPSK transponder with a few free channels). Eliminating receivers that can't do 8PSK from the Western Arc will allow DISH to go "all 8PSK" on both arcs. It is a major step.



harsh said:


> I don't think very many really want what DIRECTV is offering today in terms of UHD content and delivery. You have to be pretty hard core.


What DirecTV offers today is more that what DISH offers ... but the goal is to offer more than what is offered today. The 4K Joey is coming to improve DISH's offerings. It is not all about today ... it is about the future.


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## BobCulp

OFFLINE shadough

Icon










Registered
728 posts
Joined: Dec 31, 2006

Posted Yesterday, 06:12 PM

I'm almost anxiously awaiting the day when Superstations go away completely, so I can de-activate my account.

*Edited by shadough, Yesterday, 06:13 PM.*

I am looking at those channels now:
239 WGN America
238 WWOR My 9
236 WSBK My 38
235 KWGN 
234 WPIX
233 KTLA

My 722K receivers still work and I still see the channels from 110 , 119, and 129.


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## James Long

BobCulp said:


> I am looking at those channels now:
> 239 WGN America
> 238 WWOR My 9
> 236 WSBK My 38
> 235 KWGN
> 234 WPIX
> 233 KTLA
> 
> My 722K receivers still work and I still see the channels from 110 , 119, and 129.


WGN America is not a superstation ... the rest are. They are no longer offered to customers but if one has the superstations one can keep them.


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## damondlt

Satelliteguys is reporting, June 10th is when the channels will start to switch to 8psk


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## James Long

DISH has the following temporary channels on 119 ...

6908 / 6926 Fox News (119° 6)

6904 Discovery Channel (119° 8)
6911 / 6930 TNT (119° 8)
6923 E! Entertainment TV (119° 8)

6900 / 6918 Bravo (119° 10)
6913 Univision (119° 10)

6905 / 6924 ESPN (119° 11)
6906 / 6925 ESPN 2 (119° 11)

6907 FX (119° 12)

6901 / 6919 Comedy Central (119° 13)
6902 / 6920 CNBC (119° 13)
6910 / 6929 TBS (119° 13)
6914 / 6931 USA Network (119° 13)
6928 MSNBC (119° 13)

6909 NFL Network (119° 16)
6912 Cartoon Channel (119° 16)

6922 CSN Bay Area (119° 17)

6933 WGN America (119° 18)

6903 / 6921 CNN (119° 19)

6915 / 6932 WCBS NEW YORK, NY (CBS) (119° 20)
6916 / 6934 WNBC NEW YORK, NY (NBC) (119° 20)
6917 / 6935 WNYW NEW YORK, NY (FOX) (119° 20)
6927 KTLA LOS ANGELES, CA (CW) (119° 20)

These might be a hint as to the first channels to move.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Eliminating receivers that can't do 8PSK from the Western Arc will allow DISH to go "all 8PSK" on both arcs. It is a major step.


An important milestone, yes. A major increase in WA bandwidth, not so much. That comes with next transition to MPEG4.


> What DirecTV offers today is more that what DISH offers ... but the goal is to offer more than what is offered today. The 4K Joey is coming to improve DISH's offerings. It is not all about today ... it is about the future.


Capable hardware and satellite capacity is not an offering; it is an assurance that the company will be ready if and when the time comes. Delivering a broad selection of compelling UHD content at a competitive price is what matters and neither satcaster is doing that.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> An important milestone, yes. A major increase in WA bandwidth, not so much. That comes with next transition to MPEG4.


Opening up room for forty (or more) HD channels on 119 - about the same on 110.
The 8PSK conversion alone (MPEG2 on 8PSK instead of MPEG2 on QPSK) is enough to make Eastern Arc the bottleneck for bandwidth.

Room for 70+ HD channels isn't a major increase?



harsh said:


> Capable hardware and satellite capacity is not an offering; it is an assurance that the company will be ready if and when the time comes. Delivering a broad selection of compelling UHD content at a competitive price is what matters and neither satcaster is doing that.


It is a good beginning. The content will come. It is a chicken and egg situation. The equipment and content will come together.


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## Lawrence49

I'm in west Texas on the WA, and I dunno if my receiver is a 501, 510, or what.....but it gets the HD format on all channels. 
I'd like to see Dish go to a carousel available channel menu and allow me to pick and choose which channels I am going to pay
for watching each month. I already pay $129/month for the Top 250 with Encore......and I don't see where Dish is cheaper
than DirecTV. Of all those channels, I watch maybe 30.....the rest are in packages of sports and other things I'm not interested in
at all.....yet I pay for them every month. 

And when I went to Dish, years ago, they had a channel that showed a camera pointing back at the Earth from the
satellite......whatever happened to that? 

Lawrence49


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## inkahauts

James Long said:


> Opening up room for forty (or more) HD channels on 119 - about the same on 110.
> The 8PSK conversion alone (MPEG2 on 8PSK instead of MPEG2 on QPSK) is enough to make Eastern Arc the bottleneck for bandwidth.
> 
> Room for 70+ HD channels isn't a major increase?
> 
> It is a good beginning. The content will come. It is a chicken and egg situation. The equipment and content will come together.


That's an entire satellite worth!!!!

And I would be surprised if dish used a transponder for pushing out 4k movies like DIRECTV does.


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## James Long

Lawrence49 said:


> I'm in west Texas on the WA, and I dunno if my receiver is a 501, 510, or what.....but it gets the HD format on all channels.


If it gets HD it isn't a 500 series. Those are SD only. You should be able to see the receiver type by pressing the MENU button twice on your remote (cancel to exit).



Lawrence49 said:


> I'd like to see Dish go to a carousel available channel menu and allow me to pick and choose which channels I am going to pay
> for watching each month.


That is called "a la carte" and has practically no chance of occurring. Most programmers that create the channels refuse to sell their content a la carte - and they are big enough to tell DISH to deliver the channel to 4 million/9 million/14 million subscribers or not be able to carry it at all.



Lawrence49 said:


> And when I went to Dish, years ago, they had a channel that showed a camera pointing back at the Earth from the
> satellite......whatever happened to that?


The source of that channel was a camera on the satellite. The picture was returned to Earth via a special feed provided under temporary authority from the FCC. The authority expired. It was an interesting channel.


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## damondlt

inkahauts said:


> That's an entire satellite worth!!!!
> 
> And I would be surprised if dish used a transponder for pushing out 4k movies like DIRECTV does.


What are they going to do to increase capacity on Eastern arc?


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## inkahauts

I don't know but I think, and James will know for sure, that the east has more space than west right now and this may make the west catch up and surpass the east. Don't know.


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## inkahauts

I have no clue how their rsns and such and part time need stack up either. Maybe they need more space for eastern than western or vice versa overall.


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## James Long

inkahauts said:


> I don't know but I think, and James will know for sure, that the east has more space than west right now and this may make the west catch up and surpass the east. Don't know.


I don't know how DISH will solve the problem at Eastern Arc. But as stated above, once the 8PSK conversion is complete the Eastern Arc will be the one with the bandwidth crunch.


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## Stewart Vernon

How much of a difference will there be, after all the changes, from west to east? I mean if there are around 70 potential HD channel spots available on west after all the shuffling, what is there on east for comparison? I've lost track recently since it didn't matter until the stuff on western arc happens.


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## James Long

Raw data ...
DISH has 62 licensed transponders on 61.5 and 72 (Eastern Arc for those without 77). There are two additional transponders that DISH can use for temporary programming (DISH uses them for internal test channels). 15 transponders are used for spots. So roughly 47 Eastern Arc transponders for ConUS channels.

DISH has 82 licensed transponders on 119-110-129. 31 transponders are used for spots leaving 51 transponders open for ConUS channels. If everything was equal (and it won't be soon) there are four additional transponders available on Western Arc.

In the interim ...
QPSK MPEG2 SD occupies 15 ConUS transponders on 119, 14 at 110 and one at 129. 30 transponders.
A typical DISH 8PSK transponder carries 23% more bits than a typical QPSK transponder.
30 full transponders becomes 24 transponders ... six transponders freed up.

CORRECTING THE "70 CHANNELS" MENTIONED ABOVE. I missed a step in the math. Make that 27 HD channels after everything on 119 is converted to 8PSK and around 50 when all QPSK is gone. DISH has around 175 HD feeds on the system ... the conversion to 8PSK MPEG2 SD opens up space for a 15% increase in HD.


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## inkahauts

Ok so just spitballing but what if they switch their two test transponders to the west. Then they have 49 out west and 49 out east.... Gains two transponders out east and they leveled off the west where the east is...

Or is that too neat and clean an idea?


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## James Long

The two test transponders are not licensed to DISH. The FCC allows DISH to use them under special temporary authority. DISH cannot put any services on them for customers unless the customers are warned that the content of those two transponders could go away.

Pre-Voom DISH used the transponders for something expendable (they only had 11 licensed transponders plus six borrowed from SkyAngel). When Voom HD launched DISH lost the channels and Voom put channels on there with the appropriate disclaimer. When the Voom HD service failed DISH bought their satellite and licenses ... but the two temporary transponders remained "unassigned".


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## inkahauts

Awh, interesting.. I wonder if they would be comfortable using them for part time rsns and alt channels.. I mean who else is ever goign to use them? In fact who owns them and why don;t they just try and buy them, if possible... Interesting... 

And thanks for killing my simple idea.. !rolling


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## James Long

inkahauts said:


> Awh, interesting.. I wonder if they would be comfortable using them for part time rsns and alt channels.. I mean who else is ever goign to use them? In fact who owns them and why don;t they just try and buy them, if possible... Interesting...


DISH has tried to get the transponders assigned to them but the FCC is leaving them open for a potential new entrant to the DBS market. Not that there is a new entrant on the horizon or anyone who can do much with two transponders ... but the FCC looks at DISH with 80 licensed US DBS transponders and DirecTV with 46 licensed US DBS transponders and doesn't feel the need to give DISH two more.

DISH managed to get the assignment changed so the two unassigned transponders are #1 and #2 instead of #23 and #24 ... that makes it easier for DISH to operate their satellite at 61.5 with spotbeams on transponders 17 to 32. But permanent licensing is not on the horizon.


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## zippyfrog

James Long said:


> DISH has the following temporary channels on 119 ...
> 
> 6908 / 6926 Fox News (119° 6)
> 
> 6904 Discovery Channel (119° 8)
> 6911 / 6930 TNT (119° 8)
> 6923 E! Entertainment TV (119° 8)
> 
> 6900 / 6918 Bravo (119° 10)
> 6913 Univision (119° 10)
> 
> 6905 / 6924 ESPN (119° 11)
> 6906 / 6925 ESPN 2 (119° 11)
> 
> 6907 FX (119° 12)
> 
> 6901 / 6919 Comedy Central (119° 13)
> 6902 / 6920 CNBC (119° 13)
> 6910 / 6929 TBS (119° 13)
> 6914 / 6931 USA Network (119° 13)
> 6928 MSNBC (119° 13)
> 
> 6909 NFL Network (119° 16)
> 6912 Cartoon Channel (119° 16)
> 
> 6922 CSN Bay Area (119° 17)
> 
> 6933 WGN America (119° 18)
> 
> 6903 / 6921 CNN (119° 19)
> 
> 6915 / 6932 WCBS NEW YORK, NY (CBS) (119° 20)
> 6916 / 6934 WNBC NEW YORK, NY (NBC) (119° 20)
> 6917 / 6935 WNYW NEW YORK, NY (FOX) (119° 20)
> 6927 KTLA LOS ANGELES, CA (CW) (119° 20)
> 
> These might be a hint as to the first channels to move.


James - are transponders able to have QPSK and 8PSK channels concurrently? I thought the entire transponder had to be 8PSK or QPSK.

If a transponder can only be one type at a time, what would be your guess on what they would convert first? Do you think TP 19 would be the first to convert since it looks like CNN and HLN are the only two channels on that transponder? I know this is pure speculation - wasn't sure if there was something else you can see it your data that would lead to have a prediction.


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## James Long

zippyfrog said:


> James - are transponders able to have QPSK and 8PSK channels concurrently? I thought the entire transponder had to be 8PSK or QPSK.


The channels are not 8PSK or QPSK ... the transponders are 8PSK or QPSK (the entire transponder using one modulation. The channels themselves are MPEG2 or MPEG4 (MPEG2 SD for the Western Arc).



zippyfrog said:


> If a transponder can only be one type at a time, what would be your guess on what they would convert first? Do you think TP 19 would be the first to convert since it looks like CNN and HLN are the only two channels on that transponder? I know this is pure speculation - wasn't sure if there was something else you can see it your data that would lead to have a prediction.


There are additional channels on each transponder ... that list only shows the temporary channels (and there have been a few more added).

What I expect is DISH will flag the normal channel numbers in a way that will hide them from QPSK only receivers. (DISH used such a flag in the past for MPEG2 on 8PSK transponders ... it should work even if the channels are really on QPSK transponders.) Then the 6900 series channels will be opened up flagged as normal MPEG2. The effect will be that on older QPSK only receivers the normal channels will disappear while on 8PSK receivers they will remain available.

Customers who have not upgraded will still be able to watch the channels via the 6900 channels ... but it will serve as their final warning that yes, you will absolutely lose service if you do not update your receivers (and repoint your dish - if needed).

I do not know which channels or transponders will go first ... I will report what changes when it changes through the Uplink Activity threads. But I expect that we will not see real changes to 8PSK immediately. (That is my educated guess.)


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## Stewart Vernon

That makes sense... although, once they make the first wave of switches... unless they have space and plan on doing those "temp" 6900 versions for everything... they will not really need to keep doing that after channels have already gone away from view at some point.

I would think maybe they do the soft push at first, like you say... then at some point there is a hard cut with the first groups of channels they transition... and then no more soft push, channels will just keep disappearing on a weekly basis and customers will have to call and ask "wha hoppen?"


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## scooper

With the recievers able to do downconverting of HD to SD, there is really no reason on Eastern Arc to have any SD channels (except where the content provider does not offer an HD version). You can't say that about Western Arc until all SD receivers are gone (including the 8PSK ones). There are 19 transponders available on 77, but I don't know if they are visible to all Eastern Arc customers, nor what they can be used for . I believe none of them are spotbeams, but just how far north is the footprint ?


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## James Long

scooper said:


> With the recievers able to do downconverting of HD to SD, there is really no reason on Eastern Arc to have any SD channels (except where the content provider does not offer an HD version). You can't say that about Western Arc until all SD receivers are gone (including the 8PSK ones). There are 19 transponders available on 77, but I don't know if they are visible to all Eastern Arc customers, nor what they can be used for . I believe none of them are spotbeams, but just how far north is the footprint ?


QuetzSat 1 does better than the Echostar sats did at providing a footprint to the US (the Echostar sats were not designed for 77). You are correct ... there are no spotbeams.

DISH has been using a smaller LNB on Eastern Arc that does not see 77. If they opened 77 up to regular channels (more than locals and Latino) DISH would need to replace the smaller LNBs they have been deploying. (The Latino channels have recently been added to 61.5 ... making them available to people without 77.)

At some point DISH Mexico may need more QuetzSat 1 transponders. Filling 77 with US services would block improving DISH Mexico services.

SD duplicates on Eastern Arc are a mystery ... it seems like they shouldn't be needed. One assumption is that there are contractual limitations that prohibit their removal (DISH has agreed to carry the SD and HD feeds). Rewrite the contract where DISH can deliver the SD *or* HD feed and the SD feeds can be contractually removed.

The other reason to keep SD dublicates is fallback. Currently when a HD channel is unavailable (due to weather or other problems) the receivers will fall back to the SD channel. SD is better than no channel. It is nice having a backup. But when needed, space for more HD would be more useful than backup.


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## zippyfrog

James Long said:


> DISH has tried to get the transponders assigned to them but the FCC is leaving them open for a potential new entrant to the DBS market. Not that there is a new entrant on the horizon or anyone who can do much with two transponders ... but the FCC looks at DISH with 80 licensed US DBS transponders and DirecTV with 46 licensed US DBS transponders and doesn't feel the need to give DISH two more.
> 
> DISH managed to get the assignment changed so the two unassigned transponders are #1 and #2 instead of #23 and #24 ... that makes it easier for DISH to operate their satellite at 61.5 with spotbeams on transponders 17 to 32. But permanent licensing is not on the horizon.


James - does DirecTV use transponder space differently than Dish? For Dish to have 80 and DirecTV 46 - that is a huge difference. Yet on one of your other posts at http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/185998-directv-dish-network-hd-channel-lineup-comparison/DirecTV has 209 full time HD channels and Dish only has 151. Dish almost has twice the number of transponders but almost 60 less full time HD channels?


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## James Long

zippyfrog said:


> James - does DirecTV use transponder space differently than Dish? For Dish to have 80 and DirecTV 46 - that is a huge difference. Yet on one of your other posts at http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/185998-directv-dish-network-hd-channel-lineup-comparison/DirecTV has 209 full time HD channels and Dish only has 151. Dish almost has twice the number of transponders but almost 60 less full time HD channels?


DirecTV uses a completely separate set of Ka satellites for HD. Their DBS satellites are used for SD channels (with a few minor exceptions).


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## mwdxer

Direct uses KA satellites for their HD? Isn't there a lot of rain fade using 18 gHz?


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## inkahauts

And also DIRECTV only needs one channel for conus broadcasts. Dish needs two one for east and one for west for a fair amount of their channels so they need more capacity to offer the same amount of channels.


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## KyL416

zippyfrog said:


> James - does DirecTV use transponder space differently than Dish? For Dish to have 80 and DirecTV 46 - that is a huge difference.


DirecTV isn't operating two seperate arcs where all the national content has to be mirrored at two locations. If Dish didn't have seperate arcs they'd have room for a LOT more channels, but the problem is with that wide of a range to cover (from 61 to 129), you'd have a higher risk of line of site issues with at least one of those slots depending on where the trees are on their property and how low some of the satellites are in the sky.

As for rain fade, if the installer properly peaked your signals the difference is very minimal. i.e. for me if HD goes out because of rain, by the time I switch to the SD feed it goes out less than a minute later too.


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## James Long

One should also read posts in context ... the 80 vs 46 is for US DBS licenses. DISH has access to 88 additional transponders that are licensed to Mexico (77 slot) and Canada (72.7 and 129 slots). 168 vs 46 for all DBS licenses - in practice 62 EA *or* 82 WA transponders needed for most customers (select EA customers need 77 for their locals, international channel customers need 118).

The "80 vs 46" answer was given to answer the question of why the FCC would not simply hand over the final two transponder licenses to DISH. The FCC looks at US licensed transponders. The FCC would also look at the US licensed transponders DISH does not use at 148 (I believe most of the 148 slot licenses have been lost at this point).


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## James Long

BTW: This is the "NEWS" channel placed throughout the guide for subscribers who need to update their equipment or re-aim their dish. Why DISH has these channels on Eastern Arc as well as Western Arc is beyond me, but apparently customers who have ignored all of the cards, letters and emails can see this on several temporary channels:








(Channels 125, 148, 204, 306 and 864)


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Why DISH has these channels on Eastern Arc as well as Western Arc is beyond me, but apparently customers who have ignored all of the cards, letters and emails can see this on several temporary channels:


Consider that a few WA customers (and more than a few EA customers) may still be running a 61.5W wing dish so they can continue to run their apparently priceless SD receivers.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> Consider that a few WA customers (and more than a few EA customers) may still be running a 61.5W wing dish so they can continue to run their apparently priceless SD receivers.


The "NEWS" channels are on 110 and 61.5. It would take a really old odd setup for a viewer to have 119 and 61.5 and not 110. The channels that one would have had on 61.5 were moved off a long time ago.

DISH should have placed the channels on 119 since that seems to be the first target of channels to convert. The really old installations with just a Dish 300 aimed at 119 are not going to see the channels on 110 or 61.5. If DISH is, as you theorize, attempting to catch old odd setups the common thread in every setup needing upgrade would be reception of 119.


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## SeaBeagle

I do. I'm t have any of those channels available,


Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


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## James Long

SeaBeagle said:


> I do. I'm t have any of those channels available,


If you don't see the channels don't worry about it. The channels are for people who need to make the change. I believe we have already covered your situation and you did not need to make the change.


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## SeaBeagle

James Long said:


> If you don't see the channels don't worry about it. The channels are for people who need to make the change. I believe we have already covered your situation and you did not need to make the change.


I will remember that now.

Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


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## James Long

Channel changes have begun ... please see the new thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/218223-satellite-changes-8psk-sd/


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