# DVDs play as near HD quality on HD DVD?



## MarkGSportsNut

Hi -

I have a Mits 57" DLP HDTV which I love. Currently I have a Sony DVD player that is at least 7 years old connected as well as a Xbox 360 (via component not HDMI). I'm told the Xbox 360 DVD player will upconvert better then my old Sony DVD player (true or false)?

If I purchase a HD DVD player (not the one for the 360) but say a Toshiba HD-A3 and use HDMI I've heard it will play the older DVDs near HD quality? Will I see a significant difference playing it on a HD DVD player versus the Xbox 360 DVD (non- HD) player?

My logic is this. I know about the Bluray vs HD DVD format wars and Bluray has the edge with recent announcements. The HD DVD players are being discounted big time with offers of 10 free HD DVDs. My collection is mostly kids movies and not very many adult movies. Anything new would be kids movies and I would still buy on DVD versus HD DVD since my other DVD players in the house, car, laptop, other family members and friends, etc are all DVD players (I think that is the biggest challenge the industry has because people want to use the DVDs they purchase to play in more then one player). 

Right now I'm looking to see if an HD DVD player would play DVDs at a higher quality. If not or not a significant difference over the Xbox DVD then I'll wait. I figure in 2-4 years once this settles out and if it is Bluray then I can get one at that time plus upgrade my Surround Sound (Digital Dolby 5.1) system which is 7 years old also.

Mark


----------



## Toolfriend

My Toshiba HD-A2 plays DVD at very near HD-DVD quality. The HD-DVD/Blu Ray wars go on but if HD-DVD were to lose as it appears may happen with only two studios supporting the format and even Microsoft now neutral. I would still be happy with my HD-DVD player for viewing DVD. It is that good to me.


----------



## MarkGSportsNut

Toolfriend said:


> My Toshiba HD-A2 plays DVD at very near HD-DVD quality. The HD-DVD/Blu Ray wars go on but if HD-DVD were to lose as it appears may happen with only two studios supporting the format and even Microsoft now neutral. I would still be happy with my HD-DVD player for viewing DVD. It is that good to me.


So I would see a significant difference playing DVD on a HD-DVD player then what I have today playing DVD on my Xbox 360 DVD (Non-HDVD) player?


----------



## DCSholtis

MarkGSportsNut said:


> So I would see a significant difference playing DVD on a HD-DVD player then what I have today playing DVD on my Xbox 360 DVD (Non-HDVD) player?


I don't know if I would call the difference "significant" but yes you will see better picture quality. Depending on your TV it will be upconverted to either 720p or 1080p. The PQ will never be as good as it would be if you had either an HD DVD or Blu Ray player of course.


----------



## MarkGSportsNut

DCSholtis said:


> I don't know if I would call the difference "significant" but yes you will see better picture quality. Depending on your TV it will be upconverted to either 720p or 1080p. The PQ will never be as good as it would be if you had either an HD DVD or Blu Ray player of course.


TV is 1080p. When I play a DVD using the Xbox 360 the TV says it is 480i.

I'm assuming Bluray would play the DVD near HD quality as well as the HD-DVD player. The deals for Bluray are just not as cheap (player plus 10 free HD DVDs for $149 with free shipping).


----------



## PTravel

Standard definition DVDs are 720 pixels x 480 pixels, or a total of 345,600. High-def is 1920 x 1080, or 2,073,600 (or 1280 x 720, for 921,600 pixels). Standard definition DVDs are not, and can never be, "near HD." Upscaling DVD players (or stand-alone scalers) interpolate the missing pixels, producing a smooth and clear picture, but they cannot supply detail that is simply not there.


----------



## Carl Spock

^ Exactly. Upscaling is better than not upscaling but it still isn't HD.

Forget just the resolution aspect. It also isn't the colors. It isn't the black level. It isn't the freedom from noise.

It's not near HD.


----------



## gazzie4

You can not up convert over component cables even with the xbox HD DVD player due to copyright protection. Only through HDMI. Your xbox 360 will upconvert if you use that with the HDMI, if you do not have the HDMI, and want to upconvert, you can buy the HD-A3 HD DVD player right now at Compusa.com for $139. Of course at this point you would be better off getting a blu ray player. Since everyone seems to be jumping ship to Blu Ray now.


----------



## gazzie4

You could also just get a DVD player for $60 or so that upconverts to 1080p. But as stated it must be hooked up through the HDMI to do so.


----------



## MarkGSportsNut

gazzie4 said:


> You can not up convert over component cables even with the xbox HD DVD player due to copyright protection. Only through HDMI. Your xbox 360 will upconvert if you use that with the HDMI, if you do not have the HDMI, and want to upconvert, you can buy the HD-A3 HD DVD player right now at Compusa.com for $139. Of course at this point you would be better off getting a blu ray player. Since everyone seems to be jumping ship to Blu Ray now.


What I'm basically asking is if I buy the HD-A3 HD DVD player will I get any better PQ or Sound playing regular DVDs then I do today using my Xbox 360 Non-HD DVD player via component or my 7 year old Sony DVD player via RCA cables?
The HD DVD player would be connected to my 1080p via HDMI and my 7 year old Surround Sound (Dolby 5.1) via optical.

Another question would be whether for extra $50 is the A30 going to buy me anything over the A3? Doesn't sound like it from what I have read.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MarkGSportsNut said:


> What I'm basically asking is if I buy the HD-A3 HD DVD player will I get any better PQ or Sound playing regular DVDs then I do today using my Xbox 360 Non-HD DVD player via component or my 7 year old Sony DVD player via RCA cables?


Absolutely! 


> Another question would be whether for extra $50 is the A30 going to buy me anything over the A3? Doesn't sound like it from what I have read.


You'll be able to play HD DVD's, which are real HD video and sound and even better than your basic need. In addition, audio CD's sound fantastic with the A3.


----------



## HIPAR

I have seen reference to some newer SD DVDs being rigged to prohibit upscaling. Does anyone know about this or is it just FUD?

--- CHAS


----------



## Cholly

HIPAR said:


> I have seen reference to some newer SD DVDs being rigged to prohibit upscaling. Does anyone know about this or is it just FUD?
> 
> --- CHAS


I've yet to see any that prevent upscaling. That doesn't mean that it won't happen. I'd be inclined to think that this problem might exist with Disney, Fox or Sony movies if any. That being said, I've tried a few recent fox movies with no problem. Haven't tried Pirates of the Caribbean at World's End yet.


----------



## gazzie4

They wont really prevent upscaling, you may have been hearing about some not being able to be upscaled without HDMI plugged in. Some movies without copy protection will upscale without HDMI, but only with certain players. 

the A30 is better than the A3 witht he 1080p and is also only $179 currently at Compusa


----------



## PTravel

MarkGSportsNut said:


> What I'm basically asking is if I buy the HD-A3 HD DVD player will I get any better PQ or Sound playing regular DVDs then I do today using my Xbox 360 Non-HD DVD player via component or my 7 year old Sony DVD player via RCA cables?


Definitely -- without question.



HIPAR said:


> I have seen reference to some newer SD DVDs being rigged to prohibit upscaling. Does anyone know about this or is it just FUD?
> 
> --- CHAS


I don't believe there is a flag in the DVD spec that prevents upscaling. However, even if it does, it's meaningless -- virtually all HD televisions can upscale. It's called different things on different televisions -- "full screen" "wide" "theater wide" etc. -- but it's upscaling. The only question is whether they do it as well as the DVD player.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

PTravel said:


> I don't believe there is a flag in the DVD spec that prevents upscaling.


For standard DVDs, I don't think it is so much a specific flag as it is the already-existent copy protection. Copy-protected DVDs are detected by the upscaling player and it will not upscale over component. There is supposed to be specific flag/tagging detection for HD DVD and Blu ray, but I'm not aware of any media yet that has this set for testing purposes to verify.



PTravel said:


> However, even if it does, it's meaningless -- virtually all HD televisions can upscale. It's called different things on different televisions -- "full screen" "wide" "theater wide" etc. -- but it's upscaling. The only question is whether they do it as well as the DVD player.


And this is true. In my case, I do have some DVDs that will upscale via component... but when I play them on my HDTV and let them upscale, they do not look any better to me than non-upscaled (i.e. my TV does the upscaling instead of the player). I've also compared with my father's HDTV that is connected via HDMI and see no difference in the upscaling there either... so in my case I have an HDTV that is as good at upscaling as my HD DVD player is.. so no worries for me about not being able to upscale via component.


----------



## MarkGSportsNut

gazzie4 said:


> the A30 is better than the A3 with the 1080p and is also only $179 currently at Compusa


I had read that the A30 doesn't handle 1080p well and some tvs can't perform the 1080p/24 (not sure if mine does) so save the dough and go with the A3?


----------



## Cholly

PTravel said:


> Definitely -- without question.
> 
> I don't believe there is a flag in the DVD spec that prevents upscaling. However, even if it does, it's meaningless -- virtually all HD televisions can upscale. It's called different things on different televisions -- "full screen" "wide" "theater wide" etc. -- but it's upscaling. The only question is whether they do it as well as the DVD player.


No -- that's not upscaling, it's changing the aspect ratio. Upscaling is the process of matching pixel count of a non-high definition DVD to the pixel count of a high def picture:
http://hometheater.about.com/od/hometheaterglossary/g/upscalingdef.htm
http://www.virginmedia.com/digital/digitalhome/advancedguides/upscalingdvdplayers.php


----------



## PTravel

Cholly said:


> No -- that's not upscaling, it's changing the aspect ratio. Upscaling is the process of matching pixel count of a non-high definition DVD to the pixel count of a high def picture:
> http://hometheater.about.com/od/hometheaterglossary/g/upscalingdef.htm
> http://www.virginmedia.com/digital/digitalhome/advancedguides/upscalingdvdplayers.php


I'm sorry, but you're misunderstanding what you read. Digital HDTVs have a fixed number of pixels -- anything that doesn't match the native resolution of the television must be scaled. When you vary the aspect of the image, the television is performing scaling. For example, I have a non-scaling DVD player that I bought in China (so I can play Region 6 DVDs). It doesn't have HDMI, but does have component output. It puts out 480p (it's a progressive scan machine) that appears as a 16:9 image, but centered in the middle of the screen with black borders all around. My TV (a Toshiba Regza) has a variety of options under the Aspect menu, some of which will scale the image so that it fills the screen in the correct aspect ratio.

Scaling is not specific to DVDs. I frequently have the television scale standard-definition letter-boxed broadcasts from my DirecTV DVR.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

PTravel said:


> Digital HDTVs have a fixed number of pixels


One minor nit here... There are still a lot of folks (myself included) with rear-projection CRT HDTVs, as well as some folks who bought regular tube HDTVs in smaller screen sizes. We do not have fixed pixels on our screens in the same way that LCD, DLP, Plasma, etc. have a fixed grid of pixels.


----------



## PTravel

HDMe said:


> One minor nit here... There are still a lot of folks (myself included) with rear-projection CRT HDTVs, as well as some folks who bought regular tube HDTVs in smaller screen sizes. We do not have fixed pixels on our screens in the same way that LCD, DLP, Plasma, etc. have a fixed grid of pixels.


You're correct, of course, and I thought about qualifying analog vs. digital HDTVs. CRTs, of course, have a fixed number of scan lines but some (particularly front projectors) have an adjustable aspect ratio and I thought it would get too complicated. After all, who still has a CRT?


----------



## MarkGSportsNut

So the A3 doesn't provide much of an upgrade over the A3 for the extra $50. No improved upscaling versus the A3? and it has issues with 1080p from what I have read (plus I'm not sure I can do 1080p/24) plus I'll have mostly SD-DVDs anyway.


----------



## Cholly

PTravel said:


> I'm sorry, but you're misunderstanding what you read. Digital HDTVs have a fixed number of pixels -- anything that doesn't match the native resolution of the television must be scaled. When you vary the aspect of the image, the television is performing scaling. For example, I have a non-scaling DVD player that I bought in China (so I can play Region 6 DVDs). It doesn't have HDMI, but does have component output. It puts out 480p (it's a progressive scan machine) that appears as a 16:9 image, but centered in the middle of the screen with black borders all around. My TV (a Toshiba Regza) has a variety of options under the Aspect menu, some of which will scale the image so that it fills the screen in the correct aspect ratio.
> 
> Scaling is not specific to DVDs. I frequently have the television scale standard-definition letter-boxed broadcasts from my DirecTV DVR.


In rereading my post, I see I used the wrong terms. What i meant to say is "the matching of the pixel count of a non-high definition *signal* to the pixel count of an HDTV. The point I was trying to make is this: simply expanding a picture (as zooming) to fill a screen is technically not upscaling. Upscaling requires the use of algorithms to map a 480i or 480p signal to a 720p, 1080i or 1080p screen.


----------



## HIPAR

Well, no matter what you call it you need to add lines to make a 480 line picture fill up a 720 line picture. You need to come up with 240 lines that aren't there in effect simulating a 720P picture from a 480 source. 

How would one do this? A simple solution might be to just double up on a line every so often. That will get the vertical aspect ratio correct but I don't think it would be the best solution for simulating a higher definition image. So I agree some algorithm that modifies the source line pixels while filling in the new lines is in order. Perhaps that's what a good up-conversion chip does. 

Then we need to do the same kind of thing for the horizontal pixels along with the problem of converting to 1080 I/P.

I'd lose a lot of sleep if the boss assigned me to solve this problem!

--- CHAS


----------



## GrumpyBear

HIPAR said:


> I have seen reference to some newer SD DVDs being rigged to prohibit upscaling. Does anyone know about this or is it just FUD?
> 
> --- CHAS


As somebody that posted about the upscaling issue, after "rereading" the article, its more of a problem with upscaling DvD's over Component, not that studio's are allowing for upscaling period. For my part it was a misread on an article, and reading to much into other peoples posts. I hate "FUD" myself.

Makes you wonder if they want to put a stop to the cheaper machines, that upscale via Component, and get people to buy newer machines that are either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. As the quaility of Picture of upscaled DvD's is good enough for most Avg Joe's.


----------



## PTravel

Cholly said:


> In rereading my post, I see I used the wrong terms. What i meant to say is "the matching of the pixel count of a non-high definition *signal* to the pixel count of an HDTV. The point I was trying to make is this: simply expanding a picture (as zooming) to fill a screen is technically not upscaling. Upscaling requires the use of algorithms to map a 480i or 480p signal to a 720p, 1080i or 1080p screen.


As someone else noted, whatever you call it, it's still scaling. The only question is the complexity (and accuracy) of the algorithm that determines what will go in those "in between" pixels.


----------



## PTravel

GrumpyBear said:


> As somebody that posted about the upscaling issue, after "rereading" the article, its more of a problem with upscaling DvD's over Component, not that studio's are allowing for upscaling period. For my part it was a misread on an article, and reading to much into other peoples posts. I hate "FUD" myself.
> 
> Makes you wonder if they want to put a stop to the cheaper machines, that upscale via Component, and get people to buy newer machines that are either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. As the quaility of Picture of upscaled DvD's is good enough for most Avg Joe's.


I think there's some confusion, here.

The concern studios have with component is that it doesn't contain integrated copy protection, whereas HDMI (at least the latest spec) does. The studio's "solution" is to limit scaling over component so that people won't make copies of content. They can prevent HD copying over HDMI by setting one of several flags that limit what can be done with the video -- all HDMI-compliant devices are required to recognize these flags and respond accordingly.,


----------



## Cholly

PTravel said:


> As someone else noted, whatever you call it, it's still scaling. The only question is the complexity (and accuracy) of the algorithm that determines what will go in those "in between" pixels.


Let's put this to bed  -- With raster based displays, you don't use scalers. With pixel based displays, zooming, etc. arguably does require the use of scaling logic of some sort. However, when we talk of upscaling, we are referring to the conversion of a lower definition picture signal to a higher definition one (as, for example, converting a 480i signal to 720p -- the format (4:3 or letterboxed) is unchanged. Do we agree?


----------



## machavez00

here is someone's comparison test
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/3/512241#3135557


> Last week I gave a subjective ranking on the upconversion performance of three HD players including the 1.8 updated PS3. To a get a more objective handle on these rankings I ordered the HQV Benchmark DVD...
> 
> http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm
> 
> ... and again put the three players to the test. The objective tests just confirmed the validity of my subjective rankings with the following total scores:
> 
> 1. Toshiba HD-XA2 - 130 (out of a possible 130)
> 2. Toshiba HD-A1 - 116
> 3. PS3 with 1.8 Update - 91


----------



## bobukcat

machavez00 said:


> here is someone's comparison test
> http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/3/512241#3135557


That one was also kind of old (June) and tested build 1.8 for PS3, which is now up to 2.10. I'm not stating that 2.1 makes it a better upsacling DVD player, because I don't know, but that it 3 revs of s/w ago and seeing as how it improved dramatically from 1.7 to 1.8 it seems reasonable to suspect some additional improvements have been made in the latest revisions as well.


----------



## MarkGSportsNut

Btw - It was confirmed in another forum that the A30/35 has a better upscaling chip then the A3. Also sounds like 1080p/60 is still a problem with the A30 but 1080p/24 works fine.


----------



## jhillestad

Well I have a PS3 and a Toshiba HD-A3 and can tell you flat out that the Toshiba does a way better job upscaling my standard dvd's... I also have a samsung dvd recorder that upscales better than the PS3. I love the PS3 for blu ray and its awesome avchd abilities but if you just looking for a great dvd player to upscale your stuff by all mean get the Toshiba hd-a3 at Amazon or wherever... I paid $128 shipped.. I believe they are at $125 with 7 free HD discs.

checkout: (not my comparison but its interesting...)
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37130

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HD-A3...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1201246208&sr=8-1

OR for you 1080p die hard mavens:

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HD-A3...2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1201246239&sr=8-2

I do prefer blu ray over hd dvd for the sole reason of avchd camera support built right into blu ray... but for $125 who cares grab a player and enjoy. but like I said I have noticed the upscaler on the ps3 just isnt that great.... and when hd dvd's are fire sale'd for 99 cents you will have a player so its all good!

If you do look into buying a blu ray player get a ps3 - for the money it does soooo much more than just play movies.... if you have a avchd camera it will play your m2ts files natively and on the ps3's hard drive as well as on a standard cheap dvd-r in glorious HD.....


----------

