# DIRECTV and Tivo to Launch new HD DVR in 2010



## Tom Robertson

DIRECTV and TiVo to Launch New HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service
Wednesday September 3, 7:00 am ET

EL SEGUNDO and ALVISO, Calif., Sept. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- DIRECTV, Inc. (Nasdaq: DTV - News), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO - News), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), announced today that they have extended their current agreement, which includes the development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo® service, as well as the extension of mutual intellectual property arrangements.

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Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.

DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.

"We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV. Together we brought the TiVo experience to millions of DIRECTV customers and now we look forward to launching a next generation product that uses TiVo's latest features to truly showcase DIRECTV's broad selection of high-definition programming -- all stitched together with the elegance of TiVo's renowned user experience," said Tom Rogers, TiVo's CEO and president. "This agreement demonstrates our continued embrace of mass distribution opportunities in cooperation with major multichannel operators who recognize the value of giving their customers a choice of compelling user experiences."

Like prior products developed by TiVo and DIRECTV, the new HD offering will be marketed and sold by DIRECTV nationally to its entire customer base as part of its growing portfolio of brand name video offerings. Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product.

"As the industry's content and technology leader, DIRECTV has a long-standing reputation for developing innovative, advanced products and services, including our highly successful series of DVRs and HD DVRs," said Chase Carey, president and CEO, DIRECTV, Inc. "We will continue to work with TiVo and make this new product available to all new and existing DIRECTV customers who may want to add TiVo on top of our industry leading experience."

DIRECTV and TiVo began their relationship in 2000 with the launch of the first DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service. In April 2006, the companies announced an extension of their commercial and advertising relationship and those commercial and advertising capabilities are further extended, and now include the new HD platform. DIRECTV and TiVo also recently deployed a software update to existing DIRECTV with TiVo boxes, which enables new features like DIRECTV's Remote Booking.

Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.

About DIRECTV, Inc.

DIRECTV, Inc. (NASDAQ: DTV - News), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, presents the finest television experience available to more than 17.1 million customers in the United States and is leading the HD revolution with more than 130 HD channels -- more quality HD channels than any other television provider. Each day, DIRECTV subscribers enjoy access to over 265 channels of 100% digital picture and sound, exclusive programming, industry-leading customer satisfaction (which has surpassed all national cable companies for eight years running) and superior technologies that include advanced DVR and HD-DVR services and the most state-of-the-art interactive sports packages available anywhere. For the most up-to-date information on DIRECTV, please visit directv.com.

About TiVo Inc

Founded in 1997, TiVo (NASDAQ: TIVO - News) pioneered a brand new category of products with the development of the first commercially available digital video recorder (DVR). Sold through leading consumer electronic retailers, TiVo has developed a brand which resonates boldly with consumers as providing a superior television experience. Through agreements with leading satellite and cable providers, TiVo also integrates its DVR service features into the set-top boxes of mass distributors. TiVo's DVR functionality and ease of use, with such features as Season Pass® recordings, WishList® searches, and TiVo KidZone, have elevated its popularity among consumers and have created a whole new way for viewers to watch television. With a continued investment in its patented technologies, TiVo is revolutionizing the way consumers watch and access home entertainment. Rapidly becoming the focal point of the digital living room, TiVo's DVR is at the center of experiencing new forms of content on the TV, such as broadband delivered video, music and photos. With innovative features such as TiVoToGo(TM) and online scheduling, TiVo is expanding the notion of consumers experiencing "TiVo, TV your way.®" The TiVo® service is also at the forefront of providing innovative marketing solutions for the television industry, including the Stop||Watch(TM) commercial and program rankings service, a unique platform for advertisers and media companies. The Company is based in Alviso, California.

TiVo, the TiVo logo, Season Pass, WishList, Swivel, Stop||Watch, TiVoToGo, and 'TiVo, TV your way.' are trademarks or registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

This release contains certain forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements relate to, among other things, the timing and nature of future development and distribution of DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service, the future availability of interactive advertising capabilities and future negotiations between TiVo and DIRECTV on other product initiatives. Forward-looking statements generally can be identified by the use of forward-looking terminology such as, "believe," "expect," "may," "will," "intend," "estimate," "continue," or similar expressions or the negative of those terms or expressions. Such statements involve risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to vary materially from those expressed in or indicated by the forward-looking statements. Factors that may cause actual results to differ materially include delays in development, competitive service offerings and lack of market acceptance, as well as the other potential factors described under "Risk Factors" in DIRECTV's public reports and TiVo's public reports, including each company's most recent Annual Report on Form 10-K and subsequent current and quarterly reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Each of DIRECTV and TiVo cautions you not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements, which reflect an analysis only and speak only as of the date hereof. Each of DIRECTV and TiVo disclaim any obligation to update these forward-looking statements.


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## Tom Robertson

And a Summary of the TiVo SEC filing: http://biz.yahoo.com/e/080903/tivo8-k.html


> Entry into a Material Definitive Agreement
> 
> ITEM 1.01. Entry into a Material Definitive Agreement.
> 
> On September 2, 2008, we entered into a new Amended & Restated Development Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc., which amends and restates, our prior Development Agreement with DIRECTV. The new agreement extends the expiration date of our agreement with DIRECTV from February 15, 2010 to February 15, 2015, with DIRECTV having the right to extend further until February 15, 2018, subject to limited exceptions. Under the terms of our non-exclusive agreement, TiVo will develop a new version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled high definition DVR platform. As part of this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. On an annual basis, we will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded up-front by DIRECTV subject to limited future fee credits.
> 
> DIRECTV is also obligated to annual marketing commitments, including significant cross-channel promotion of the high definition DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo. Further, the new agreement extends each party's covenant not to assert its patents against the other party with respect to each company's products and services deployed prior to the expiration of the agreement, subject to limited exceptions. In addition, going forward, DIRECTV is entitled to most favored customer terms as compared with other multi-channel video distributors in the United States to whom TiVo grants a license to distribute certain TiVo technology in the future. DIRECTV has the right to terminate the agreement in the event we are the subject of certain change of control transactions involving certain companies. We also have the right to terminate the agreement, including the patent covenant, if we are unable to deliver the product within a specified time period due to non-TiVo issues.
> 
> In addition, on September 2, 2008, we entered into a new Second Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc., which amends and restates, our prior Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV. Under this new agreement, we continue to have the right to sell advertising and audience research and measurement products in connection with DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service deployed prior to the effective date of this new agreement, and such rights will extend to new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo.
> 
> The foregoing description of our new Amended & Restated Development Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc. and our new Second Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc. is qualified in its entirety by reference to the provisions of those agreements that will be filed as exhibits with the Company's Form 10-Q for the fiscal quarter ended October 31, 2008.


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## raoul5788

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV and TiVo to Launch New HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service
> Wednesday September 3, 7:00 am ET
> 
> EL SEGUNDO and ALVISO, Calif., Sept. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- DIRECTV, Inc. (Nasdaq: DTV - News), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO - News), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), announced today that they have extended their current agreement, which includes the development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo® service, as well as the extension of mutual intellectual property arrangements.
> ....(rest of the press announcement removed, it's a long one...)


This is going to make a lot of Tivo owners very happy!


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## jcwest

Now the TIVO freaks will be jumping for joy today.


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## Jason Whiddon

Whoopee. Wheres my new hd


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## Steve Robertson

WOW this is great news


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## Incog-Neato

LOL, so much for all the naysayers.


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## paulman182

Even though I've had great results with my DirecTV designed DVRs, I can see from posts all over the web that this is a HUGE move for DirecTV. 

I wonder if they really will continue the HR series after the new TiVo becomes a stable platform. I have my doubts.


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## davring

Will the TIVO fanatics be able to wait an entire year? I can see polls, wish lists and people already lining up to buy. This will be fun to watch


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## Tom Robertson

This has awesome potential for DIRECTV users. DIRECTV will continue to have access to the TiVO portfolio of intellectual property, DIRECTV customers will have access to TiVO based DVRs and services, and we'll likely see even more cooler stuff in both DVR lines because of collaboration. Woohoo!

I'm sure the Shadow will be along soon to bring his signature phrase! 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Grydlok

Well we now know where the DLB will come from.


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## wilbur_the_goose

WOW - Just give us DLB!


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## wilbur_the_goose

wilbur_the_goose said:


> WOW - Just give us DLB!


I'm a big time HR20 fan, but TiVo rocks, and I will definitely switch back.


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## newsposter

i guess this prevents any lawsuits too 

So when's the preorder?


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## Jason Whiddon

Only way Ill try it is if it has built in OTA.


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## braven

This is good news. Good news indeed.


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## noursegod

I guess that just goes to show you... Never say never

On another note... I winder if this will be like the comcast deal where the Tivo software can be loaded onto the HR2x series DVRs....


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## joshjr

I wanted a TiVo DVR to begin with. I do happen to like the HR20 I have but would be very interested in getting my hands on a TiVo. The only thing I am wondering will be if the AM21 will work with it or if it will the tuners built into it.


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## bgottschalk

_"DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services."_

I certainly hope this is true.

I would hate to see the whole CE process and HR series just end and have us just handed a TIVO and told - here's what you get - it is what it is. What does this do to all the development happening on the HR series now and for the next 12 months?

Not sure what to really think of this news.


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## photostudent

Put me on the waiting list!


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## davemayo

I wonder if you will be able to ask Directv specifically to ship you one of these new DTivos, or whether this will be a retail only item.


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## Jason Whiddon

2nd half of 2009 huh, meh. Ill ask again, "wheres my new hd"


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## Tom Robertson

elwaylite said:


> 2nd half of 2009 huh, meh. Ill ask again, "wheres my new hd"


New HD sooner than the TiVO-based DVR...


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## markrubi

If it has DLB's which it should I see myself switching dvr's.  If it comes to the current dvr's I have then I will keep them. They will be perfect then in my eyes.


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## BlueSnake

Nothin', but nothin' but good news.

Even the biggest supporters of the HR series will have to admit this is good news. I have been wondering all along that after 2 years how can Directv still be developing this piece of electronics in a world where a 2 year old piece of electronic equipment is usually considered obsolete.


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## adamson

Oh God I almost fell off my chair...LMAO. This is the best news from Directv in some time and yay I will have HD next year. All I can say is wow!! Great news!!


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## dmurphy

I think this is excellent news.

I've had lots of DTiVo units over the years - from the Hughes GXCEBOT to the HR10-250 and everything inbetween. They were great, but we came to a point where the DVR+ platform offered more (MPEG-4, network connectivity, etc.) without 'hacking' the box.

Having said that - choice is good. I'd certainly welcome a new, MPEG4 capable DTiVo!

At this point, however, I wonder just why the heck DirecTV doesn't purchase TiVo outright.... that would make lots of sense to me.


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## Tom Robertson

BlueSnake said:


> Nothin', but nothin' but good news.
> 
> Even the biggest supporters of the HR series will have to admit this is good news. I have been wondering all along that after 2 years how can Directv still be developing this piece of electronics in a world where a 2 year old piece of electronic equipment is usually considered obsolete.


Ummm...Comcast's version has been under development for even longer 
Standalone TiVO's have been under development for how long? 

Yes, I see this a good news. More features, less mess (legal potential at least), some choice.

I know the DIRECTV DVR development team will continue to drive their innovations and features into the Plus line as well. So the products will only continue to get better and better. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Jason Whiddon

BlueSnake said:


> Nothin', but nothin' but good news.
> 
> Even the biggest supporters of the HR series will have to admit this is good news. I have been wondering all along that after 2 years how can Directv still be developing this piece of electronics in a world where a 2 year old piece of electronic equipment is usually considered obsolete.


I disagree with the biggest supporters comment.

I also disagree that the HR20 is obsolete. It does mpeg4, has ext hdd ability, does media sharing and just got 1080p/24. Oh sorry, i guess we have to have DLB 

All we need is more hardware saturating their time. We need one HDDVR that they should spend all their time perfecting and improving. I guess if its the tivo, fine, but lets not have 2 or 3 floating around


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## minorthr

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!! :eek2:


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## TimGoodwin

elwaylite said:


> Only way Ill try it is if it has built in OTA.


I'm with you there... even if it has DLB, I need OTA a lot more.


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## Tom Robertson

minorthr said:


> HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!! :eek2:


You should see a Dr. about that... :grin:


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## BlueSnake

Tom Robertson said:


> Ummm...Comcast's version has been under development for even longer
> Standalone TiVO's have been under development for how long?
> 
> Yes, I see this a good news. More features, less mess (legal potential at least), some choice.
> 
> I know the DIRECTV DVR development team will continue to drive their innovations and features into the Plus line as well. So the products will only continue to get better and better.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom,

Most of us on this forum consider ourselves cutting edgers. I don't know about you, but almost all of my electronic toys that are 2 or more years old are outdated or obsolete.

I have been satisfied with my HR DVRs, just not thrilled. I really think that the HR series has been a jack of all trades but master of none. More people would have been happier if it had just been a state of the art DVR, with all the features that people have come to expect from a DVR, ie.... DLB, that worked flawlessly, and less of the fluff.

It's like cell phones, it doesn't matter to me if it takes pictures, plays musics, receives TV, or what else they can make it do, if the call quality sucks.


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## MIAMI1683

I can't believe it. I could't be more disappointed in this announcement. I am left to wonder if the "Tivo" will be a waterd down version again


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## kevin1844

I hate to be 'that guy' but I don't know that I want to go back now. I really like my HR20. I switched from SD Tivo kicking and screaming. Then DirecTV made some changes. Now I can't stand watching TV in my bedroom where my DirecTivo is. The HR20 has so many intuitive features that Tivo doesn't. Why should I have to stop watching a recorded show in order to see whats on live TV? Why should I have to stop watching liveTV to see whats recorded? 

Sure DLB is huge but I don't know if I really care that much about it anymore. 
Hmm.... This might be too little too late for me.


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## Jason Whiddon

MIAMI1683 said:


> I can't believe it. I could't be more disappointed in this announcement. I am left to wonder if the "Tivo" will be a waterd down version again


I agree. Especially with a somewhat empty shiny new sat sitting in orbit.



kevin1844 said:


> I hate to be 'that guy' but I don't know that I want to go back now. I really like my HR20. I switched from SD Tivo kicking and screaming. Then DirecTV made some changes. Now I can't stand watching TV in my bedroom where my DirecTivo is. The HR20 has so many intuitive features that Tivo doesn't. Why should I have to stop watching a recorded show in order to see whats on live TV? Why should I have to stop watching liveTV to see whats recorded?
> 
> Sure DLB is huge but I don't know if I really care that much about it anymore.
> Hmm.... This might be too little too late for me.


Agree completely.


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## dodge boy

I just might have to get an HD TV now!!!!!! I left Tivo for the newer intereactive Plus DVRS but if this is going to have MRV Now, DLB and interactive, media share, DOD, etc that my R22 has + the Tivo interface, built in OTA, I may just move back.....


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## noursegod

> DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform.


This seems to hint that they will use the existing platform. After all, the "TiVo Service" is just the software. I would almost prefer one box with two software choices... I think from an R&D standpoint, D* would as well.


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## justlgi

noursegod said:


> This seems to hint that they will use the existing platform. After all, the "TiVo Service" is just the software. I would almost prefer one box with two software choices... I think from an R&D standpoint, D* would as well.


Exactly what I was thinking.

/not that there is anything wrong with that.


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## lovswr

paulman182 said:


> Even though I've had great results with my DirecTV designed DVRs, I can see from posts all over the web that this is a HUGE move for DirecTV.
> 
> I wonder if they really will continue the HR series after the new TiVo becomes a stable platform. I have my doubts.


This is what I want to know also. From a marketing stand point this is horrible. The Tivo brand is ubiquitous with the DVR & D* had finally gotten their own in house brand as just about established.

Now this.

They need to make all D* DVR's branded as Tivo or not. So will we get DLB & MRV on the new box? Will they continue to develop as fast as they have been on the old in house boxes. I hate it when companies basically change their strategies like this. It takes a lot of time (years) & money (millions to billions) to change branding like this.

Think New Coke fiasco (but of course on a mush smaller scale).


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## Starchy77

Not sure how to take this.... I waited on upgrading for a long time because I loved my Tivo's...... Finally had to make the switch in the last month or 2 so I could be ready for the NFL ST this year in HD. Now I have 3 HR2x's but would rather have the Tivos. I wonder if they will be compatible with each other if/when MRV ever rolls around. I know I can't afford another $900-$2000 to replace all of my HR units with Tivo's


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## katzeye

I appreciate my HR-20, it does the job well, but that said,OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG!. 
The one thing I was sad about when I went HD was having to put away my Tivo. I really love that device, it just works so elegantly and is a pleasant user experience. Combined with D* HD service, this will be a wicked combination!


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## johnp37

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I'm a big time HR20 fan, but TiVo rocks, and I will definitely switch back.


If it has OTA access I will drop the HRxx series like a bad habit, no question. I will request recovery kits and send them all back. If Directv won't send me the Tivo boxes I'll buy them outright retail. Happy with your HRxx boxes and not considering switching? Good for you. But I can't wait.


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## erosroadie

_DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services._

I loved TiVo and the HR10-250 when it came out (still use one), and as a sports fan I contend there is no substitute for its DLB. My two HR-2X boxes have been very good and the software in some areas is superior to the HR-10 TiVo system I have now. So it will be interesting to see what the "best of both worlds" will bring.

However, (if I read this correctly) I would be a bit concerned if there will be two hardware platforms offered simultaneously. My guess is that the technical support will get watered down for each if two different platforms are developed here. Further, if we get to choose which hardware we want, and one system is not selling well, will DirecTV drop it?

But, I could be wrong...


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## Jason Whiddon

noursegod said:


> This seems to hint that they will use the existing platform. After all, the "TiVo Service" is just the software. I would almost prefer one box with two software choices... I think from an R&D standpoint, D* would as well.


Interesting thought, would they keep the HR line and add a one time fee or something to install Tivo software to your existing dvr? Kinda like the Comcast model. Would prob be some BS monthly fee.

Then one would have to worry about the bugs. Id almost prefer a NEW box designed around the tivo software to slowly replace the HR line. More boxes, less support.


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## jefbal99

Did hell freeze over this morning?

All joking aside, props to DirecTV for getting this done.


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## lovswr

justlgi said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> /not that there is anything wrong with that.


Yes, but how long. the HR series uses totally different hardware than old D* Tivo branded boxes or the Tivo boxes of today. How long will it take them to port over this code? IMHO if they are going to go with Tivo for HD, them make *all* D* DVR's Tivo powered, bring back the peanut (updated of course) remote & everything else that being Tivo enabled entails.

Maintaining two code bases (essentially two different ways to kill the same bird) just seems wasteful & not very well thought out.


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## stblake10

I have a question, if not already asked. I have the D* TIVO box from "06" and was wondering if there are going to be any small group testing? If so, count me in.


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## Jason Whiddon

lovswr said:


> Yes, but how long. the HR series uses totally different hardware than old D* Tivo branded boxes or the Tivo boxes of today. How long will it take them to port over this code? IMHO if they are going to go with Tivo for HD, them make *all* D* DVR's Tivo powered, bring back the peanut (updated of course) remote & everything else that being Tivo enabled entails.
> 
> Maintaining two code bases (essentially two different ways to kill the same bird) just seems wasteful & not very well thought out.


I say if they are gonna do it, just let all the dvr's become Tivo units. Support the HR's until they are gone (which will take a long time).

I agree, we dont need a HR2X AND a HD Tivo.


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## Capmeister

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I'm a big time HR20 fan, but TiVo rocks, and I will definitely switch back.


I will try one when it comes out, but I'm happy with my HR2x's and I'm staying with them unless this new Tivo is super-fantastical.


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## Jason Whiddon

If you read the release from D*, i mean it spells it out.

New and current customers will get HR boxes, Tivos can be had as an "alternative" choice. I dont agree with this way, but I guess it is what it is.


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## mhayes70

Wow! :eek2: This is great news! We will have the best of both worlds. I will be looking forward to this.


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## noursegod

lovswr said:


> Yes, but how long. the HR series uses totally different hardware than old D* Tivo branded boxes or the Tivo boxes of today. How long will it take them to port over this code? IMHO if they are going to go with Tivo for HD, them make *all* D* DVR's Tivo powered, bring back the peanut (updated of course) remote & everything else that being Tivo enabled entails.
> 
> Maintaining two code bases (essentially two different ways to kill the same bird) just seems wasteful & not very well thought out.


I don't think offering customers more choices is ever a bad idea. Of course, this discussion is probably eerily similar to the discussions that occurred when D* announced the R15, just in reverse. I am really hoping that they are as committed to the HR2X line of DVRs as they say they are.

I think that each DVR could serve it own niche... I can see the HR2X line becoming more of a power user's DVR and the TiVo Service being more of a average consumer friendly box. Of course, I could be completely wrong.. Interesting times indeed.


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## MIAMI1683

Tom Robertson said:


> You should see a Dr. about that... :grin:


 Tom,

As we all know this could be "big" for D* in both a good and a bad way. I had the HR10-250's. I use the Hrxx now. The HRxx is more intuitive IMHO. The D* Tivo's were waterd down and "bulky" Why would D* do this now :nono2: . Thier product has come such a long way. What about the CE program...is that going to go away? Will the just d/l software to it and voils a Tivo interface is born.


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## fredandbetty

SWEET!!! sounds GREAT!!! Curious as heck now!!!


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## noursegod

elwaylite said:


> If you read the release from D*, i mean it spells it out.
> 
> New and current customers will get HR boxes, Tivos can be had as an "alternative" choice. I dont agree with this way, but I guess it is what it is.


The release does seem to emphasize customers having a choice


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## muzzymate

I had to check to make sure it wasn't April 1st!

While I've been very happy with the HR2x series, I've missed some of the great features of Tivo. Giving the customer a choice is a great move. Thanks DirecTV!


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## wilbur_the_goose

bgottschalk said:


> _"DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services."_
> 
> I certainly hope this is true.
> 
> I would hate to see the whole CE process and HR series just end and have us just handed a TIVO and told - here's what you get - it is what it is. What does this do to all the development happening on the HR series now and for the next 12 months?
> 
> Not sure what to really think of this news.


Hi - back when the first Philips DTiVo's came out, there was a very active beta program not unlike CE. TiVo was very much like the great D* engineers are today - eager to help and show off new features. I still remember beta testing the first time dual tuners were enabled.

That all ended when Hughes spun off DirecTV.


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## Mertzen

They better work without land lines.


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## Capmeister

Sounds to me like DirecTV is giving its Tivo customers what they wanted. Again, I find D* amazingly responsive to customer needs.


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## davemayo

MIAMI1683 said:


> Why would D* do this now :nono2: .
> 
> 
> 
> IMO they are doing this to get freedom under Tivo's patent portfolio. Tivo wants their software exposed to Directv customers, Directv wants to continue its license under Tivo's patents. Sounds like a quid pro quo to me.
Click to expand...


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## EricRobins

This announcement begs the question: WHY?

I understand the reason to "make nice" and make sure D* gets a broad license under the TiVo IP, but what advantage does this have for D*? Is it just another item that D* can bill monthly for?

Like so many people have said before, supporting this new (?) hardware when there are so many problems with the HR series is only going to lead to more problems. 

I have had TiVo-branded DVR's going back to '01 (having replaced my two SD-DTiVo's with HR20's and my HR10 with an HR21), and other than DLB and some stability issues, I really do not see any advantage for D* subscribers. If however, the new units include some of the "goodies" available to standalone TiVo users (MRV, etc.), this could be a significant advantage. (However, I do not see why these goodies could be implemented into the HR series units instead (maybe with the help of TiVo programmers?) and forgo the expected brier patch of issues.)


----------



## scuba_tim

So where's the First Look?? Ok, I'll be patient.

This does seem odd, and a little against DirecTV moving to a single standard format. Different models, software, etc just seems to make life harder for things like tech support. I can't always find a CSR that knows an HR20 has an OTA connection. Now there's going to be more boxes?

It's an interesting move for sure.


----------



## Sirshagg

Is it April 1 ALREADY?


----------



## LameLefty

Like many of you, I thought this was some kind of a joke.

After literally YEARS of the strong, semi-official pronouncements from those here who have Directv contacts that Tivo was on the way out, that the Plus and Plus HD DVR boxes were the sole, solitary platform of the future, this announcement comes as more than somewhat of a surprise.

I too am concerned with the future of the CE process and like many others, I am quite heavily emotionally invested in making the Plus and Plus HD boxes the best they can be. I've spent many hours logging bugs, downloading code on Friday nights (going back to Santa, whatever night that actually was on  ), etc. I would hate to see the value of these efforts deprecated just to placate the Cult of the DLB.

So just color me  for the day.


----------



## BubblePuppy

WOW! Gotta clean the coffee of my computer screen.
I wonder if this the "*Something better*" mentioned a few months ago in the chat room?
I just hope, in the Tiveo units, it will have the 90 minute buffers with the DLB. I've gotten to really like the long buffers.


----------



## dave29

MIAMI1683 said:


> Tom,
> 
> As we all know this could be "big" for D* in both a good and a bad way. I had the HR10-250's. I use the Hrxx now. The HRxx is more intuitive IMHO. The D* Tivo's were waterd down and "bulky" Why would D* do this now :nono2: . Thier product has come such a long way. What about the CE program...is that going to go away? Will the just d/l software to it and voils a Tivo interface is born.


that is exactly what i am worried about. i admit.... that i will most likely buy one when they come out(because i have to always have the new toy) but i dont want to see an end come to additional features for the hr2x series. also, im sure the UI will be totally different, that is something else i would like to avoid as well.


----------



## Tom Robertson

MIAMI1683 said:


> Tom,
> 
> As we all know this could be "big" for D* in both a good and a bad way. I had the HR10-250's. I use the Hrxx now. The HRxx is more intuitive IMHO. The D* Tivo's were waterd down and "bulky" Why would D* do this now :nono2: . Thier product has come such a long way. What about the CE program...is that going to go away? Will the just d/l software to it and voils a Tivo interface is born.


My guess, purely a guess as I had no advanced information about this, is that this will only be a good thing. DIRECTV's team has done an amazing job of innovating and building the HR2x family in a very short time. TiVo must have had the $$ scared out of them. 

So I have believe the new TiVo offerings won't be watered down in anyway (and will almost certainly be less expensive than the feature uplift charges TiVo has now.)

The question is... 

Will the TiVo versions have:

One Touch Record
Two Touch Series Links
Recording Defaults
Overlapping recordings on a single tuner
Single Sat. Tuner and dual OTA tuner configurations
Media Share
DLNA support

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## sorahl

I am very excited about being able to get a tivo based solution again. I have had 2 HR20's since the beginning and they have VERY MUCH gotten better..but I know i was still happier with the DirecTivo devices we had before we went HD. NOW....if we will get access to the new features of the tivo's


----------



## LarryFlowers

Looks like all of us who thought this would never happen were dead wrong.

Personally, I don't care, was never overly enamored of the TIVO interface and it has no features that interest me enough to move from my HR units that I am happy with.

That being said I am happy for the TIVO die hards who love their TIVO's. This should stop the rants...

However, we will now spend the next year listening to "when will it be ready" so I have a request: You TIVO fans have got what you wanted so how about NOT posting any anticipation threads for at least the next 6 months...


----------



## Tom Robertson

sorahl said:


> I am very excited about being able to get a tivo based solution again. I have had 2 HR20's since the beginning and they have VERY MUCH gotten better..but I know i was still happier with the DirecTivo devices we had before we went HD. NOW....if we will get access to the new features of the tivo's


The Press Release makes it pretty clear we'll get some or most of the new features of TiVo.

(But will the TiVo versions get all the new innovations of the HR2x?) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Lee L

This is excellent news. My first reaction was this is a sign of the Apocalypse and hell surely must be freezing over.
Then I saw posts like this:



noursegod said:


> I guess that just goes to show you... Never say never
> 
> On another note... I winder if this will be like the comcast deal where the Tivo software can be loaded onto the HR2x series DVRs....


Please to all that is good and holy let this not be the case. I am hoping against hope that we can finally have a box with the best of everything, including speedy operation and I fear the HR20 is not powerful enough, plus with all teh issues TiVO has had with teh COmcast retrofit software, I hope they start from scratch on this one.


----------



## Mark Holtz

This is indeed good news. Slight problem.... I still don't have a HDTV.

Still, can't wait to modify the hard drives and put in two 1.5 TB drives in there.


----------



## dmurphy

So, I think this just breathed a whole bunch more life into my DVR Lifetime subscription ;-)

That was probably the best $200 I ever spent ....


----------



## Smthkd

Finally they have :icon_kiss and made up!!!

:icon_da: :dance01: :welcome: :jumpingja :icon_bb: :sunsmile: :icon_band :jump3: :icon_da: :icon_peac :gott: :love1: 


Time to "Do the Dance!!!!" :dance:


----------



## Incog-Neato

I hope not. That has beem a total disaster (and years late).


noursegod said:


> I guess that just goes to show you... Never say never
> 
> On another note... I winder if this will be like the comcast deal where the Tivo software can be loaded onto the HR2x series DVRs....


----------



## Tom Robertson

LarryFlowers said:


> Looks like all of us who thought this would never happen were dead wrong.
> 
> Personally, I don't care, was never overly enamored of the TIVO interface and it has no features that interest me enough to move from my HR units that I am happy with.
> 
> That being said I am happy for the TIVO die hards who love their TIVO's. This should stop the rants...
> 
> However, we will now spend the next year listening to "when will it be ready" so I have a request: You TIVO fans have got what you wanted so how about NOT posting any anticipation threads for at least the next 6 months...


I never expected this day. Color me surprised. 

Since the press release says 2nd half of 2009, I might suggest the "when will it be ready" posts and threads shouldn't start for at least 9 months...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jebber

I know one thing, I won't be first in line to drop $800 on a new D HDTIVO. Not like the last time


----------



## dssturbo1

Mertzen said:


> They better work without land lines.


shouldnt be a problem there. My Directv HR10-250 HD Tivo worked 1289 days (between software upgrades) without a land line.


----------



## kevinwmsn

An anticipation thread will start in 3, 2, 1,.... wait there is already one  Maybe the Tivo could be the whole room DVR? I hope the interface will be faster than the HR10-250.


----------



## NickD

I am very interested in this news. I would most likely jump to a Tivo box. I enjoyed Tivo when I had it before. However the main thing that I miss from Tivo is DLB and wishlist. I hope that the new box is a nice blend of features from the 2 sets. I love the PIG, that is a nice feature. I also miss the guide options from the Tivo, it was nice to be able to look at what was on a channel for the next several hours without having to scroll through.

The real question is what will it cost??? Will it be a one time fee or a fee for the box and an additional fee for the Tivo service every month. Will people like me who have had the tivo service for a long time that has the fee for the first box only be grandfathered in??? Waiting to hear what the answers will be to some of these questions.


----------



## TMullenJr

Over the years, I have had Ultimate TV, Replay, Standalone Tivo, DirecTV w/ Tivo, R-15, R-16 and HR-20s.

Of them all, in my opinion Tivo was terrible and I really did not like it. I'm sure there will be changes to the new version, so hopefully it will be improved over the Tivos that I've seen in the past, but personally I'll stick with my HR-20s.

Plus, if they are saying the middle of 09, that means you'll be lucky if it shows up by 2010.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

"HOLY TIVO BATMAN!" :eek2:

"Yes Robin, coming soon.....DirecTivo."

Well I guess we all know what the "better then DLB" is now. 

Wow, I had to pinch myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming. Even though I've never had Tivo, this is great news for D*. I'm pretty sure Malone had something to do with, doesn't he own part of Tivo? Now that D* owns Replay TV, and if D* decides to buy Tivo, they'll have the DVR market locked down. Even better news for D*.



> The question is...
> 
> Will the TiVo versions have:
> One Touch Record
> Two Touch Series Links
> Recording Defaults
> Overlapping recordings on a single tuner
> Single Sat. Tuner and dual OTA tuner configurations
> Media Share
> DLNA support


Yes, it needs to have all of that plus
1TB hard drive
MRV
quad LB+quad PIP. PIP is a must have to keep in competition with E* and the cable companys

Can't wait to see what happens with this.


----------



## sacalait

Tom Robertson said:


> I never expected this day. Color me surprised.
> 
> Since the press release says 2nd half of 2009, I might suggest the "when will it be ready" posts and threads shouldn't start for at least 9 months...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Excellent idea, Tom :new_smili


----------



## Jason Whiddon

The two touch series links are a great thing. Something Dish's dvr needs.


----------



## turey22

i wont give up my hr20...i love that box. i even named it


----------



## Ken S

I don't believe they did this primarily because of the technology licensing issue. My guesses...

1. There are some executives at DirecTV and/or Liberty (and customers) that are unhappy with the HR2x development project. There have been some missteps by that group. The recent pullback of a national release may have been the final straw and the impetus for these talks. Perhaps an executive's kids or grandkids used the search function and pulled up some porn titles...we'll probably never know for sure.

2. Tivo has been struggling and was willing to drop its pricing/share of ongoing revenue with DirecTV to a price that made continuing HR2x development more costly.

3. The Tivo brand has value in the marketplace and the DirecTV marketing and sales folks believe it will help with sales/retention.

4. DirecTV/Liberty may have a deal to receive an ownership stake in Tivo and potentially an option to buy the company outright.

I'm not saying that the HR2x line is going to be dropped immediately...and DirecTV would never say that because they need to keep that group together at least until the Tivo unit is ready. Should Tivo have an acceptable unit in testing by mid 2009 I believe the HR2x group will be shrunk down to a small maintenance group.

For Tivo's part...this has to become priority #1. If they don't launch this unit successfully they may find themselves on the pink sheets and working out of a small warehouse.


----------



## sigma1914

I can't wait to see the price. lmao


----------



## greenwave

Interesting news. I was an early adopter of the HR20 and an eager participant in the early CEs as the device developed, but only because the OTA tuner on the Tivo HR10-250 was so bad that I was effectively deprived of HD locals. 

Now that the HR2x series are stable and growing in functionality, the only upside I could see would be DLB. But as we get older and busier, my wife and I find more and more that we simply don't have time for live TV, and watch just about everything now from the DVR, so I don't even find DLB all that necessary now (although it would be nice for sports). I think I am far more excited at the prospect of more HD channels than this.


----------



## sigma1914

Along with DLB, I hope they include the best feature....excessively long wait times while loading a simple menu.


----------



## Chris Blount

What an interesting turn of events. This should finally answer the prayers of those who never could quite part ways with Tivo.

I have to wonder though that when the Tivo DVR is finally released, how will it compare to the HR-XX line? Another year of CE's can place quite a dent in the value of Tivo.


----------



## wco81

Tom Robertson said:


> Will the TiVo versions have:
> 
> One Touch Record
> Two Touch Series Links
> Recording Defaults
> Overlapping recordings on a single tuner
> Single Sat. Tuner and dual OTA tuner configurations
> Media Share
> DLNA support
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yeah I have an old DTivo so maybe these things are no longer an issue but Tivo needs to improve the speed of the interface, especially recording one broadcast or setting up a season pass.

The other thing is being able to view the program guide while watching a recording.

The media options are nice to have but I'm more interested in performance and storage.

And are they going to make us lease this thing or be able to buy it?


----------



## Sixto

Wow.

The is great news for all things DirecTV.

For those that like/prefer the HR2x then they have a box they love.

For any and all that dislike the HR2x for any reason then they have the new TiVo box.

Great for customer retention and growth.

Best of both worlds.

Wow. Just wow.


----------



## dave29

i have never seen so many people viewing a thread...... 242 right now:eek2:


----------



## Stanley Kritzik

jebber said:


> I know one thing, I won't be first in line to drop $800 on a new D HDTIVO. Not like the last time


I went through four HR10-250s, because HDMI (or DVI) was broken. After the fourth, I just switched to component wiring. Also, with the Tivo, when I wanted to burn a DVD of a program, it disabled any output other than 480i. Yes, double buffering was very nice, as was the inclusion of OTA tuners. But, also, the hard drive was way, way too small.

In short, to get me (and, I assume, lots of us) back, the package is going to have to be outstanding. Right now, with the buffering exception, I really like my HR21 with the OTA add-on.

Stan


----------



## Grentz

Very neat, but very surprised as well.

I wonder how this will effect the overall simplification of things, are they going to have two different HD DVRs now? Kinda interesting since Directv was going for the making everything very similar and simple and now they are adding in more items.

Still very exciting though, but I am trying to stay a bit lo-key about it as it sounds like its gonna be quite awhile before we see anything in our living rooms


----------



## dave29

turey22 said:


> i wont give up my hr20...i love that box. i even named it


what's his name?:lol:


----------



## ironwood

What am I supposed to do with my 4 HD DVRs?


----------



## dave29

ironwood said:


> What am I supposed to do with my 4 HD DVRs?


keep them, like i am with my 5


----------



## turey22

will it be an owned unit???


----------



## turey22

dave29 said:


> what's his name?:lol:


its a her...rosie!


----------



## Doug Brott

davemayo said:


> MIAMI1683 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would D* do this now :nono2: .
> 
> 
> 
> IMO they are doing this to get freedom under Tivo's patent portfolio. Tivo wants their software exposed to Directv customers, Directv wants to continue its license under Tivo's patents. Sounds like a quid pro quo to me.
> 
> 
> 
> .. The Replay purchase did that .. I wish I knew what the financial details of the TiVo agreement ..
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> This has awesome potential for DIRECTV users.


It seems like the same thing was said when Comcast announced a similar arrangment and timeline several years ago.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ironwood said:


> What am I supposed to do with my 4 HD DVRs?


Watch them 

(For at least 12 months...)


----------



## DFDureiko

I was furious when I gave up my HR10 for the original HR20. 
Have I gotten used to the interface? or has the HRxx gotten that much better? I wonder why after getting the HRxx just right, this happens??? What is the point?
simply gaining market share over D*S?
Dan
HR20-100/w LaCie TwoBig 1TB eSATA, 32in Olevia - home
HR20-100 37in Sony-Motosat MLS5- RV


----------



## Grentz

turey22 said:


> will it be an owned unit???


Pretty doubtful with their new leasing system in full gear.

It will be interesting to see if Directv will be nice about upgrades or not, with the new leasing thing some have spent a lot on the current gen HD-DVRs that would just be lost if upgraded (since they are leased).

Hopefully Directv does not just drop (or really slow down) HR2x development when they get the Tivo based units close to market. They still have a lot of untapped potential IMO.


----------



## JohnSorTivo

Woo Hoo! I couldn't believe the title when I read it! I have 3 DVRs in the house, one of which was a switch from an HR10-250, begrudgingly, to an HR21. Everyday since the switch has been nothing but remorse. The only reason for my switching was to gain access to the new HD content.

Now, I'm faced with the dilemma of trying to hold out for my remaining HR10 and HDVR2 (SD DirecTivo) until the release of new DirecTivos. Given the choice and proper economics, I will definitely make the switch back.

For me, this news is Christmas in September. 

For those that ask "what's the point?" I'm know I'm not alone in saying that I've contemplated switching to an alternate provider, to follow my Tivo DVR service many times since DirecTV announced dropping of their previous agreement. For me, I am more loyal to my DVR provider than the company who distributes the TV signal. Ironically, DirecTV is the company who introduced me to Tivo many years back, and by subsequently taking it away from me, they have risked losing me as a customer.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> It seems like the same thing was said when Comcast announced a similar arrangment and timeline several years ago.


Thankfully DIRECTV has a real DVR line to keep TiVo on their toes this time...


----------



## Herdfan

I have to wonder how crow tastes? Sure are a lot of people eating some. 

With that said, it will be very interesting to see what the interface looks like and what features it will have. As is stands now, I like the HR2x interface/feature set better and would not go back. The one exception would be if the HR2x series does not have MRV by then and the TiVo does. I will not go back for DLB.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> I never expected this day. Color me surprised.
> 
> Since the press release says 2nd half of 2009, I might suggest the "when will it be ready" posts and threads shouldn't start for at least 9 months...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I did not expect this either ..


----------



## Sixto

Just re-read the press release ...

"Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service *for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*".

Looks like it's just a new software load for the HR2x. I wonder if it will be that simple.

Similar to what they did with cable. Just download the code you want.

Wow.


----------



## pfastfoot

OK, so if you're a TiVo fanboy, you're pinching yourself.

As for the HR fans, you have to think, given the state of TiVo finance problems (and DTV's positive situation), that DTV was able to negotiate this for a steal. Heck, TiVo needed this to survive.

There are too many choices out there for DTV to upset the loyal HR fan base just to appease TiVo fans. My guess (and yes, I'm being ridiculously hopeful) is that DTV subscribers will get the best of both worlds.

For me, I'm just excited to use this news to make Comcast subscribers feel even more stupid for signing up with that loser of a company. Comcastic my a$$!!!


----------



## harsh

greenwave said:


> Now that the HR2x series are stable and growing in functionality, the only upside I could see would be DLB.


If the product ever becomes available, it could put enormous pressure on DIRECTV to deliver a truly competitive DVR product instead of perpetually futzing with a Windows Media device.

The downside is that TiVo is all about pushing advertising these days.


----------



## turey22

Sixto said:


> Just re-read the press release ...
> 
> "Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service *for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*".
> 
> Looks like it's just a new software load for the HR2x. I wonder if it will be that simple.
> 
> Similar to what they did with cable. Just download the code you want.
> 
> Wow.


i didnt think they would get rid of the hr2X that easy.


----------



## Capmeister

I didn't expect this... but it also doesn't effect me really. I'll probably try the new box because I like doing that, but I'm also happy with my HR2x boxes. So while it's cool news, it's like Google's new browser. I'll try it, but I still have FireFox and like it.


----------



## texasbrit

Ken S said:


> I don't believe they did this primarily because of the technology licensing issue. My guesses...
> 
> 1. There are some executives at DirecTV and/or Liberty (and customers) that are unhappy with the HR2x development project. There have been some missteps by that group. The recent pullback of a national release may have been the final straw and the impetus for these talks. Perhaps an executive's kids or grandkids used the search function and pulled up some porn titles...we'll probably never know for sure.
> 
> 2. Tivo has been struggling and was willing to drop its pricing/share of ongoing revenue with DirecTV to a price that made continuing HR2x development more costly.
> 
> 3. The Tivo brand has value in the marketplace and the DirecTV marketing and sales folks believe it will help with sales/retention.
> 
> 4. DirecTV/Liberty may have a deal to receive an ownership stake in Tivo and potentially an option to buy the company outright.
> 
> I'm not saying that the HR2x line is going to be dropped immediately...and DirecTV would never say that because they need to keep that group together at least until the Tivo unit is ready. Should Tivo have an acceptable unit in testing by mid 2009 I believe the HR2x group will be shrunk down to a small maintenance group.
> 
> For Tivo's part...this has to become priority #1. If they don't launch this unit successfully they may find themselves on the pink sheets and working out of a small warehouse.


I tend to agree with most of what you are saying. 
If the plan is to allow TiVo to implement software on the existing HR2x hardware platform and create what might become mainstream product, then I would hope that the result is a "best of both worlds" product because there are many things about the HR2x that I would hate to lose, and, to be honest, very little about the TiVo software that I miss. And we know from the Comcast project that the dates announced in this sort of release can be very over-optimistic; I would like to be wrong but I think we might be talking about a much longer development period, I will be happy but surprised if this product is generally available much before mid-2010, based on previous track record. 
If it is going to be a new hardware box also, then IMHO you can forget 2009. 
And if not, whatever constraints the HR2x hardware imposes are going to be the same for TiVo as they are for the HR2x development team. 
If on the other hand this is just going to be a software option, probably at extra cost, it might easily go nowhere. There would have to be a very compelling reason for me to pay extra for different software on the same platform, and I think the Comcast/TiVo experience seems to support my view. And if TiVo screws it up, well as you say they might just as well pack their bags and go home.


----------



## tuff bob

5. DirecTV is finding it harder than they thought to swap out the remaining HD Tivos.


This is great news, I'm going to be first in line for the new box.


----------



## kevinturcotte

turey22 said:


> will it be an owned unit???


I'd assume you can purchase and own it, like you can with the current receivers, but you're going to pay much more for it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Herdfan said:


> I have to wonder how crow tastes? Sure are a lot of people eating some.
> 
> With that said, it will be very interesting to see what the interface looks like and what features it will have. As is stands now, I like the HR2x interface/feature set better and would not go back. The one exception would be if the HR2x series does not have MRV by then and the TiVo does. I will not go back for DLB.


Mine tastes like tough chicken.

Thankfully, I too can enjoy my HR2x today.


----------



## Sixto

If they really make it as simple as a software download to existing HR2x's then this is VERY interesting. Very.

Would save the investment in millions and millions of hardware.

Prefer Tivo, sure, no problem ... just download.

That certainly is one interpretation of the press release.


----------



## justlgi

Herdfan said:


> I have to wonder how crow tastes? Sure are a lot of people eating some.
> 
> With that said, it will be very interesting to see what the interface looks like and what features it will have. As is stands now, I like the HR2x interface/feature set better and would not go back. The one exception would be if the HR2x series does not have MRV by then and the TiVo does. I will not go back for DLB.


It is pretty fun to go back and read this now.


----------



## gregjones

WOW

I am at least as surprised as everyone else. As others mentioned, this brings up two questions: why did they do it and what will it mean.

I think the why is more complicated than most have pointed out. Tivo has a long-standing agreement with DirecTV. Before extending the agreement further, Tivo probably put pressure on to have a product offering. This is fairly normal in a number of industries. For instance, syndicated radio programming licenses often have a must-air clause. This means a station can't buy the local broadcast rights to a show and then refuse to air it. I would not be surprised if Tivo pushed for similar consideration to relicense the intellectual property. Not licensing that IP has landed Dish in court, where they have lost.

I think this fits in well with DirecTV's probable strategy over the last year: removing the reasons people would not subscribe to DirecTV. This is done by offering choices and contrasting yourself with the competition. Nobody knows how the Tivo vs Dish litigation will end, but DirecTV has protected itself against such claims. They have also made an option for people that want one of the features that the Tivo interface held closely: DLB, suggestions, more series links.

I think this will end up with more features being implemented into the HR2x series. I do not see this as a move to put new advanced features exclusively on the Tivo units. Some of the comments I have seen do require some perspective, though.

The idea that the Tivo software would require new hardware does not make sense. There are no missing components of hardware for the Tivo software to require that the HR2x does not provide. I can see no compelling reason to start a new line of hardware just to support new software. The disadvantages would far outweigh the advantages.

I agree that the HR2x should be the mainstream offering. The Tivo should be available upon request for users that require DLB, suggestions or more series links. I think they will position it as a premium offering, probably marketed in tandem with other premium offerings: MLB EI, NFL ST, etc.


----------



## lovswr

elwaylite said:


> I say if they are gonna do it, just let all the dvr's become Tivo units. Support the HR's until they are gone (which will take a long time).
> 
> I agree, we dont need a HR2X AND a HD Tivo.


This is for teh win 

Just one brand of DVR. Now the real question is, will the old Tivo programers be the ones writing the code, or the current in house employees.

I just hope that D* does not make us wait until the new Tivo harware arrives to get MRV or stop the current CE process.


----------



## falz

Excellent news! Ive had my HR20 for a year or less now, and still hate the guide interface. The guide that comes with original TiVo (that you could change the DirecTiVo guide to, NOT the "TV Guide" branded one" was a real winner, you could fit SO much more information on screen.

I've gotten used to not having dual buffers, but I'd love to have that back.


----------



## dave29

Sixto said:


> If they really make it as simple as a software download to existing HR2x's then this is VERY interesting. Very.
> 
> Would save the investment in millions and millions of hardware.
> 
> Prefer Tivo, sure, no problem ... just download.
> 
> That certainly is one interpretation of the press release.


agreed, and makes sense.


----------



## pfastfoot

"The company said in a document filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission that DirecTV has the right to extend the pact further until Feb. 15, 2018, subject to limited exceptions. 

Under the terms of the non-exclusive agreement, TiVo said it will develop a new version of its service for DirecTV's broadband-enabled high definition DVR platform. 

As part of this new agreement, DirecTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DVRs with TiVo service, the filing said."

This info is coming from DTV's SEC filing. Sounds like:

(1) the Tivo service will run on DTV's hardware; and
(2) it's gonna cost a lot extra to get that peanut remote!


----------



## codespy

Hmm.....Earl Bonovich leaves DBSTalk a couple months ago for DirecTV....Now a new TiVo HD DVR is being produced......Coincidence???

Looks like all those cash payments to Earl by us TiVo lovers finally paid off!!!

Thanks Earl!!!!!!!! You the Man!!!!!!


----------



## Ken S

Oh, I agree...no way DirecTV is going to orphan all of the HR2x devices out there anytime soon. Maybe a hardware expert here can speak to the differences between the current Tivo boxes and the HR2x...something tells me they're probably not all that different.

The HR2x hardware has been changing over the past two years...would it be that much of a shock for it to continue to do so...as long as they can maintain some sort of backward compatability?

Timelines...as I said...if Tivo doesn't get this done on time I think they'll be done. Now, whether they can survive as an individual entity at the revenue DirecTV is going to pay them this time around is another story.



texasbrit said:


> I tend to agree with most of what you are saying.
> If the plan is to allow TiVo to implement software on the existing HR2x hardware platform and create what might become mainstream product, then I would hope that the result is a "best of both worlds" product because there are many things about the HR2x that I would hate to lose, and, to be honest, very little about the TiVo software that I miss. And we know from the Comcast project that the dates announced in this sort of release can be very over-optimistic; I would like to be wrong but I think we might be talking about a much longer development period, I will be happy but surprised if this product is generally available much before mid-2010, based on previous track record.
> If it is going to be a new hardware box also, then IMHO you can forget 2009.
> And if not, whatever constraints the HR2x hardware imposes are going to be the same for TiVo as they are for the HR2x development team.
> If on the other hand this is just going to be a software option, probably at extra cost, it might easily go nowhere. There would have to be a very compelling reason for me to pay extra for different software on the same platform, and I think the Comcast/TiVo experience seems to support my view. And if TiVo screws it up, well as you say they might just as well pack their bags and go home.


----------



## gregjones

Ken S said:


> I don't believe they did this primarily because of the technology licensing issue. My guesses...
> 
> 1. There are some executives at DirecTV and/or Liberty (and customers) that are unhappy with the HR2x development project. There have been some missteps by that group. The recent pullback of a national release may have been the final straw and the impetus for these talks. Perhaps an executive's kids or grandkids used the search function and pulled up some porn titles...we'll probably never know for sure.
> 
> 2. Tivo has been struggling and was willing to drop its pricing/share of ongoing revenue with DirecTV to a price that made continuing HR2x development more costly.
> 
> 3. The Tivo brand has value in the marketplace and the DirecTV marketing and sales folks believe it will help with sales/retention.
> 
> 4. DirecTV/Liberty may have a deal to receive an ownership stake in Tivo and potentially an option to buy the company outright.
> 
> I'm not saying that the HR2x line is going to be dropped immediately...and DirecTV would never say that because they need to keep that group together at least until the Tivo unit is ready. Should Tivo have an acceptable unit in testing by mid 2009 I believe the HR2x group will be shrunk down to a small maintenance group.
> 
> For Tivo's part...this has to become priority #1. If they don't launch this unit successfully they may find themselves on the pink sheets and working out of a small warehouse.


Ken, I think you lost perspective on #1. I think they are tired of hearing customers that want a product with a Tivo sticker on it. If they struck the deal for the price they should have, then this was very cheap compared to other customer retention costs. If they can give the people what they have asked for and it is less expensive than losing them, it's a good idea. I think it has nothing to do with their happiness or discomfort with the HR2x development progress. The only reason not to do something in business is because it is not in your long-term financial interest.

It seems that the deal was cheap enough to meet the long-term goals of DirecTV.

As far as HR2x becoming a small maintenance group, I think that makes no sense at all. It is obvious that the press release indicates Tivo software on the HR2x platform. This is an also-ran, not a replacement.


----------



## bonscott87

I'm surprised but good news all around.

However I will not pay extra to have Tivo loaded on my DVRs. My DVRs are just fine for me and the Tivo versions would have to go way beyond with some key functionality for me to pay extra. To pay extra for a GUI is not worth it to me. Plus it would have to have all the key features of the DVR+ line that Tivo does not have. Plus there better not be any ads in Tivo Central and all over the place as on the Series 3's.

But good for people to have a choice.


----------



## dave29

pfastfoot said:


> "
> 
> This info is coming from DTV's SEC filing. Sounds like:
> 
> (1) the Tivo service will run on DTV's hardware; and
> (2) it's gonna cost a lot extra to get that peanut remote!


if the tivo switch is basically a software upgrade to the already existing directv line of hardware, then i am all for it. i just dont want to see the current line of hardware abandonded


----------



## katzeye

Sixto said:


> Just re-read the press release ...
> 
> "Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service *for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*".
> 
> Looks like it's just a new software load for the HR2x. I wonder if it will be that simple.
> 
> Similar to what they did with cable. Just download the code you want.
> 
> Wow.


That is what I was wondering. If they would be able to implement this on the HRXX series? It seems pretty wasteful (and expensive) to roll out an entire new box just for Tivo. Hasn't the Comcast/Tivo deal been done as a software update?
Maybe the comment about D* continuing to develop its products means that the boxes will be HRXX but the software will be Tivo.


----------



## Sixto

If this is as simple as a software download then this is very easy to implement. 

All of DirecTV's hardware plans would continue, and you'd just download the new TiVo code when it's ready.

This is a great marketing advantage for DirecTV. 

Everyone will be happy, especially if there is zero hardware investment for those with HR2x's already.


----------



## bonscott87

tuff bob said:


> 5. DirecTV is finding it harder than they thought to swap out the remaining HD Tivos.


Not a problem. There are less then 50K of them left, probably much less. The MPEG4 transition has been successful and they are still growing. So converting those that are left with HD Tivo's is such a small number that this announcement has nothing to do with it. It is much bigger issues then 50K of 18 million subs.


----------



## cdavis0720

I really find myself torn on this one. I guess it's a good thing for those that never felt comfortable with the HRxx boxes. Me, I still miss DLB but nothing else from the Tivo boxes. Overall I much prefer the HRxx interface and overall ease of use. I use Media Share on an almost daily basis. I just can't see myself spending any money what so ever to "upgrade" to a new Tivo box unless as others have said it includes the best of both worlds and adds features that I would like such as DLB, MRV while retaining the speed of the HRxx interface and Media Share. Hopefully D* will now be able to include DLB in their existing boxes without threat of breaking any patent laws. Hopefully they continue full steam ahead in the CE process and eventually add MRV. That would be the ideal turnout for me at least.


Either way I'm very happy for all those that are getting what they wanted in a new Tivo box for D*.


Carl


----------



## Herdfan

And they announced it the day before DISH's may be found in contempt for not shutting of the DVR's that infringe on the TiVo software.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Sounds like the DVR service is going up my guess would be 10.00 a month for service


----------



## gregjones

pfastfoot said:


> "The company said in a document filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission that DirecTV has the right to extend the pact further until Feb. 15, 2018, subject to limited exceptions.
> 
> Under the terms of the non-exclusive agreement, TiVo said it will develop a new version of its service for DirecTV's broadband-enabled high definition DVR platform.
> 
> As part of this new agreement, DirecTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DVRs with TiVo service, the filing said."
> 
> This info is coming from DTV's SEC filing. Sounds like:
> 
> (1) the Tivo service will run on DTV's hardware; and
> (2) it's gonna cost a lot extra to get that peanut remote!


It is going to cost DirecTV more per sub. How much that translates to in terms of consumer cost is completely up in the air. Do we know how much DirecTV paid Tivo under the previous agreement (per subscriber)?


----------



## Ken S

gregjones said:


> Ken, I think you lost perspective on #1. I think they are tired of hearing customers that want a product with a Tivo sticker on it. If they struck the deal for the price they should have, then this was very cheap compared to other customer retention costs. If they can give the people what they have asked for and it is less expensive than losing them, it's a good idea. I think it has nothing to do with their happiness or discomfort with the HR2x development progress. The only reason not to do something in business is because it is not in your long-term financial interest.
> 
> It seems that the deal was cheap enough to meet the long-term goals of DirecTV.
> 
> As far as HR2x becoming a small maintenance group, I think that makes no sense at all. It is obvious that the press release indicates Tivo software on the HR2x platform. This is an also-ran, not a replacement.


gregjones,

Nothing wrong with us disagreeing. I think the Tivo brand is important to them as you suggest, but I don't believe they're going to support two development groups after they're sure the Tivo solution works acceptably. As I said...no way they say that now...they can't afford to lose their developers until they are sure Tivo can deliver.


----------



## spartanstew

Shocked.

Received this info in my Email this morning as a bulletin from HDMagazine. I knew there'd already be a thread about it here, but didn't really expect 150 posts already.

Great news overall.



kevin1844 said:


> I hate to be 'that guy' but I don't know that I want to go back now. I really like my HR20. I switched from SD Tivo kicking and screaming. Then DirecTV made some changes. ........... The HR20 has so many intuitive features that Tivo doesn't. Why should I have to stop watching a recorded show in order to see whats on live TV? Why should I have to stop watching liveTV to see whats recorded?
> 
> Sure DLB is huge but I don't know if I really care that much about it anymore.
> Hmm.... This might be too little too late for me.


I agree fully with that. Even my wife prefers the HR2X DVR's now. We still have the tivo dolls laying around the house though.


----------



## qwsxz

Ken S said:


> Here's the Tivo 8K on the agreement for those interested...
> 
> As part of this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service.


This line scares my wallet.


----------



## bonscott87

Ken S said:


> In addition, going forward, DIRECTV is entitled to most favored customer terms as compared with other multi-channel video distributors in the United States to whom TiVo grants a license to distribute certain TiVo technology in the future. DIRECTV has the right to terminate the agreement in the event we are the subject of certain change of control transactions involving certain companies. We also have the right to terminate the agreement, including the patent covenant, if we are unable to deliver the product within a specified time period due to non-TiVo issues.


Translation: The Comcast Tivo has been a disaster and the Cox Tivo has never gotten off the ground so we are desperate and gave DirecTV the deal they wanted. 

It will be interesting to see if the Comcast/Cox Tivo will die off a slow death now.


----------



## barryb

*blink*

.. yup... I read that right.


----------



## gregjones

bonscott87 said:


> Not a problem. There are less then 50K of them left, probably much less. The MPEG4 transition has been successful and they are still growing. So converting those that are left with HD Tivo's is such a small number that this announcement has nothing to do with it. It is much bigger issues then 50K of 18 million subs.


I agree. I see no probable connection between the two. I think this has to do much more with cheap intellectual property, retention and customer acquisition. This becomes an insurance policy with some nice coupons attached.


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> Thankfully DIRECTV has a real DVR line to keep TiVo on their toes this time...


Judging by the interest this announcement has already created (both positive and negative), I think DIRECTV is playing from a position of weakness in the DVR game. DIRECTV has a product line that is far from satisfying the TiVotees and as was the case with Comcast, the promise of TiVo is seen as a win of epic proportions. Look how this thread has taken off.

Will it be able to deliver anything that the HR2x cannot (will DIRECTV's lack of DVR vision be exposed)?

Will all HR2x platforms be supported or will they be foresaken?

Is the R22 in the plan?

Will the chasm between the new HD DVR and the R1x and H2x series widen?

Another upside I hadn't contemplated is that many who were sitting on the fence on HD upgrades will find that availability of a TiVo inspired HD model will push them over the edge.

Interesting times indeed.


----------



## tlrowley

tuff bob said:


> This is great news, I'm going to be first in line for the new box.


Hey, you - no line jumping, the line forms *behind me* .


----------



## Ken S

gregjones said:


> It is going to cost DirecTV more per sub. How much that translates to in terms of consumer cost is completely up in the air. Do we know how much DirecTV paid Tivo under the previous agreement (per subscriber)?


gregjones,

Here ya go...

http://contracts.onecle.com/alpha/7319.shtml


----------



## gregjones

Steve Robertson said:


> Sounds like the DVR service is going up my guess would be 10.00 a month for service


I didn't read that into it at all. The filing said DirecTV would be paying more for the service, not that customers would. It also said nothing about DVR service cost on the current DVR line. I think, if anything, you will see TiVO service as a separate charge to replace DVR service on those boxes. Also, TiVO service might be per receiver instead of per household.

I do not see them changing the pricing structure for the existing HD DVR line.


----------



## dave29

i dont know why this was announced a year in advance as this may stop "some" people from subscribing to directv until then.......


----------



## Ken S

bonscott87 said:


> Translation: The Comcast Tivo has been a disaster and the Cox Tivo has never gotten off the ground so we are desperate and gave DirecTV the deal they wanted.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the Comcast/Cox Tivo will die off a slow death now.


bonscott87,

I agree with you there. Tivo HAD to do this deal and Liberty/DirecTV WANTED to do it.


----------



## Chaos

Of course, no one has said this yet in the thread, but I'm counting on $13.95 per month per box if you want the Tivo software on your HR2x. Tivo is in a pretty dire situation financially. They need maximum revenue, and I'm sure that Directv said, we'll charge the customer whatever you want for Tivo software and we'll take a cut of that.


----------



## wco81

Steve Robertson said:


> Sounds like the DVR service is going up my guess would be 10.00 a month for service


That will be a deal breaker.

They don't have a big edge in HDTV channel offerings over cable any more.

And they still don't have PBS.

If they're going to charge cable prices for DVR service, they're going to antagonize a lot of long-time customers.

I'm already paying $100 a month and that's only two premium channels and two DVRs.


----------



## minorthr

Where do I sign up for the field test


----------



## Ken S

dave29 said:


> i dont know why this was announced a year in advance as this may stop "some" people from subscribing to directv until then.......


Dave,

By law it had to be announced as it was big enough to trigger an 8K report by Tivo at the very least.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Post #2 has been created with this SEC filing summary: http://biz.yahoo.com/e/080903/tivo8-k.html


> Entry into a Material Definitive Agreement
> 
> ITEM 1.01. Entry into a Material Definitive Agreement.
> 
> On September 2, 2008, we entered into a new Amended & Restated Development Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc., which amends and restates, our prior Development Agreement with DIRECTV. The new agreement extends the expiration date of our agreement with DIRECTV from February 15, 2010 to February 15, 2015, with DIRECTV having the right to extend further until February 15, 2018, subject to limited exceptions. Under the terms of our non-exclusive agreement, TiVo will develop a new version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled high definition DVR platform. As part of this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. On an annual basis, we will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded up-front by DIRECTV subject to limited future fee credits.
> 
> DIRECTV is also obligated to annual marketing commitments, including significant cross-channel promotion of the high definition DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo. Further, the new agreement extends each party's covenant not to assert its patents against the other party with respect to each company's products and services deployed prior to the expiration of the agreement, subject to limited exceptions. In addition, going forward, DIRECTV is entitled to most favored customer terms as compared with other multi-channel video distributors in the United States to whom TiVo grants a license to distribute certain TiVo technology in the future. DIRECTV has the right to terminate the agreement in the event we are the subject of certain change of control transactions involving certain companies. We also have the right to terminate the agreement, including the patent covenant, if we are unable to deliver the product within a specified time period due to non-TiVo issues.
> 
> In addition, on September 2, 2008, we entered into a new Second Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc., which amends and restates, our prior Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV. Under this new agreement, we continue to have the right to sell advertising and audience research and measurement products in connection with DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service deployed prior to the effective date of this new agreement, and such rights will extend to new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo.
> 
> The foregoing description of our new Amended & Restated Development Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc. and our new Second Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc. is qualified in its entirety by reference to the provisions of those agreements that will be filed as exhibits with the Company's Form 10-Q for the fiscal quarter ended October 31, 2008.


----------



## tlrowley

dave29 said:


> i dont know why this was announced a year in advance as this may stop "some" people from subscribing to directv until then.......


Aren't the first batch of HR-20 contract extensions up now (Sept 2006 + 2 years)? Perhaps this is to keep folks from leaving for cable, now that they're not under contract?


----------



## Sixto

gregjones said:


> I didn't read that into it at all. The filing said DirecTV would be paying more for the service, not that customers would. It also said nothing about DVR service cost on the current DVR line. I think, if anything, you will see TiVO service as a separate charge to replace DVR service on those boxes. Also, TiVO service might be per receiver instead of per household.
> 
> I do not see them changing the pricing structure for the existing HD DVR line.


My guess is that the TiVo service will be an additional charge just like any other feature.

Thought the old deal was $1 per subscriber to TiVo. "Substantial" could be another $1 (100%) or more ...


----------



## dave29

Ken S said:


> Dave,
> 
> By law it had to be announced as it was big enough to trigger an 8K report by Tivo at the very least.


thanks ken, i wasnt aware of that. makes sense now


----------



## Tom Robertson

tlrowley said:


> Aren't the first batch of HR-20 contract extensions up now (Sept 2006 + 2 years)? Perhaps this is to keep folks from leaving for cable, now that they're not under contract?


Roughly, tho how many of us extended more than once for more HR20s?


----------



## ShawnL25

I have 2 HR20 and a brand new HR21 and you better believe that I will be switching at least one of them out for a new Tivo based system. Really like alot about the HR2x but there is nothing that compares to a fully functional Tivo. Heres hoping that's what we get!!


----------



## jediphish

This thread is already so long that I'm not sure if someone else has posted this, but I'll add my thoughts...

The HDirecTiVo and the HD DVR+ will eventually merge into a single unit - the best of BOTH WORLDS!!!!!

Not to start a big list - but I really like some of the HD DVR+ features: Window pane viewing of program while in menu or playlist for one is big for me.


----------



## gregjones

Sixto said:


> My guess is that the TiVo service will be an additional charge just like any other feature.
> 
> Thought the old deal was $1 per subscriber to TiVo. "Substantial" could be another $1 (100%) or more ...


And that was my point, Sixto. A substantial increase could still be low enough so as not to put a lot of price pressure out there. I fully expect anyone that gets the Tivo software to pay more, likely per receiver.


----------



## Doug Brott

tuff bob said:


> 5. DirecTV is finding it harder than they thought to swap out the remaining HD Tivos.
> 
> This is great news, I'm going to be first in line for the new box.


I seriously doubt that #5 (whether true or not) played any factor in the decision. The original install base of the HR10-250 was not that big and a significant number had already made the switch.


----------



## dave29

Tom Robertson said:


> Roughly, tho how many of us extended more than once for more HR20s?


i know i have 4 or 5 times


----------



## Doug Brott

justlgi said:


> It is pretty fun to go back and read this now.


 .. obviously something changed ..  .. and no, I did not expect this to happen.


----------



## gregjones

jediphish said:


> This thread is already so long that I'm not sure if someone else has posted this, but I'll add my thoughts...
> 
> The HDirecTiVo and the HD DVR+ will eventually merge into a single unit - the best of BOTH WORLDS!!!!!
> 
> Not to start a big list - but I really like some of the HD DVR+ features: Window pane viewing of program while in menu or playlist for one is big for me.


This is expressly what a number of us have pointed out will not happen. Some features will move across into the other platforms. "Best of both worlds" is extremely subjective. If they make many changes to the Tivo interface, it will become too unlike the old interface to be acceptable by the Tivo devotees. The features in each platform lead to their respective weaknesses. There is no way to get all of the good stuff without penalty.


----------



## Rakul

While most of me thinks Ken is right that they will not support two HD DVR product lines, given their own information saying that they wanted to cut down on the number of different receivers. Part of my still hopes this will lead to much better features on the HR2x's at least before they go away


----------



## spartanstew

harsh said:


> Judging by the interest this announcement has already created (both positive and negative), I think DIRECTV is playing from a position of weakness in the DVR game. DIRECTV has a product line that is far from satisfying the TiVotees


One has nothing to do with the other. Of course this thread would take off. It's great news for D*, no matter what your thoughts on tivo are. To assume that the interest in this thread is a direct result of peoples disappointment in the D* DVR is nonsense. Oh, and the D* product line is very satisfying to this tivotee. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have switched my last D*Tivo for an HR20, even though it's hooked up to a SD TV and didn't need to upgrade it.


----------



## Bob Coxner

noursegod said:


> I guess that just goes to show you... Never say never
> 
> On another note... I winder if this will be like the comcast deal where the Tivo software can be loaded onto the HR2x series DVRs....


You better hope not. It's 2+ years in and the Comcast experiment is a total disaster.


----------



## bozzaj

I've read through all the comments here and have a few of my own. First - Second half of 2009? When you look at how pretty much every other "advanced functionality" has slipped, I'll be very surprised if it actually makes that date. Cox Communications announced a Tivo-based box August 2006. My local Cox cable still does not have any plans to support those boxes. Looking further, I guess they started testing the boxes in New England March/April of this year. That's about 18-19 months later before testing. A total of 2 years and they still don't have it rolled out nationwide. In fact, the latest information I have locally is that they may move to a DVR solution where the storage (for recorded programs) is at the local CO, eliminating issues such as conflicts and number of streams. Customer equipment would just stream their shows to any box from their list of recorded programs similar to their OnDemand service. Privacy issues aside, this is a really interesting concept and they can do it since they own the cable infrastructure. 

Regardless, I was a big DTivo user and was ready to switch back to Cox cable when the Tivo version came out, but still no luck. The HRxx boxes are close right now, but I'd still be torn if Cox offered a Tivo solution right now. Why? Local HD and MRV mostly. I still don't have local HD despite it being announced for my area (Mobile/Pensacola) about 2 years ago as well. MRV was also announced by DirecTV at CES 2006 (or was it 2005?) and it's basically still a no show. As much as announcements sound really really cool, until the box (or software) is available, I treat such announcements from DirecTV (and others) as non-news. 

Now, assuming it *does* come out in the 2nd half of 2009, you really can't compare the current HRxx release with what may be available on that box. If you look at the past year for the HRxx, there have been a ton of changes. Who knows what the HRxx will look like in September of 2009. That's a whole year for the CE process. What if th HRxx gets true MRV (true as in streamed, not copied), more than 50 SL, and DLB. Frankly, if the HRxx gets streamed MRV before then, I'd have a hard time convincing myself that Tivo would be better. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong please!) that the Tivo transfers the data to the local box and doesn't just stream it through the network, I also don't think that it can MRV recording that are still being recorded. 

If I had the choice right now, I'd probably still choose Tivo, simply because I would be able to have more than 50 Season Passes, and I'd have *some* sort of MRV functionality. I'm constantly running into the 50 SL limit and it just seems silly that I have to have two boxes under one TV just to be able to keep off-season SLs on the list. The other choice is to try and remember to add them back on when the whole idea to have a SL/SP is to be able to forget about when shows are starting up again and to have the freedom to let the system do the remembering for you. 

Regardless, I'm excited simply because this may make DirecTV work harder to get some of those things to us before Tivo comes (back) around. Once the Tivo-solution is available, I'll compare both existing solutions and make my decision at that point. It just may be that Tivo's solution won't be as interesting at that point in time. If my locals become HD this month (again - until I see them I won't believe it), I'm willing to stick around and wait. With the Direct2PC software being beta tested now, I'm feeling a bit more confident that we'll see some sort of MRV solution between HRxx boxes fairly soon. With both of those items (for me), I think I may just run out of things to complain about - well except for the 50 SL Limit. DLB isn't all that important to me since I never watch anything live.


----------



## Kurgan

The new DirecTV HD TiVo unit will need all the features of the HR2x plus dual buffers, OTA input, multi-room viewing, and TiVo to Go (or whatever they're calling it now) for me to even think about switching.

Of course, it'll be funny if those features are on the HR2x by the time the TiVo comes out. Actually, that would be a good thing. Gives a good competitive edge to both devices and would probably keep them affordable while giving the subscribers a real choice.


----------



## tkrandall

qwsxz said:


> This line scares my wallet.


Doesn't TIVO only get something like $1/month from DirecTv under the old agreement?

In any case, reading between the lines it sounds like DirecTV will position the TIVO service as a higher priced DVR service offering. My guess is regular DVR service will still be $6 a month or so. Want TIVO? Then that will cost extra. Maybe $10 or $12/month?


----------



## DarinC

Wow, so THIS is what "something better" was. Didn't expect that. I'm pretty amazed at all the posts that think this is _bad_. What's not to like? To me, worst case, this is non-news. Whether or not this is _good_ news remains to be seen. Depends on how this is implemented. So far, the HR2x boxes haven't been as reliable as my TiVos were, and still are. And for good ol' DVR functionality, the TiVos win IMO (transport functions work smoother, conflict resolution is more predictable, etc.). BUT, if this is just going to be another feature set layered on top of the existing DVR (like suggestions, wishlists, etc.), then it seems like it won't solve any of the problems with the existing units. But if it's a different box (unlikely, IMHO), or a completely different OS, then that is very promising. Like others, I'm hopeful of a "best of both worlds", but I'm not yet going to get my hopes up for anything more than than an additional set of features, most likely with a price tag.


bonscott87 said:


> Originally Posted by tuff bob
> 5. DirecTV is finding it harder than they thought to swap out the remaining HD Tivos.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a problem. There are less then 50K of them left, probably much less. It is much bigger issues then 50K of 18 million subs.
Click to expand...

But it seems you are limiting your scope to HD units. There can still be a pretty big customer base out there with SD TiVos. Those of us with HD have been pretty much forced to upgrade to non-TiVo units. Not so with SD.


----------



## spartanstew

Sixto said:


> My guess is that the TiVo service will be an additional charge just like any other feature.
> 
> Thought the old deal was $1 per subscriber to TiVo. "Substantial" could be another $1 (100%) or more ...


This brings up an interesting situation. 9 years ago, I purchased a tivo lifetime subscription through D*. That eventually became a DVR lifetime subscription. If there's an extra cost for Tivo through D* and I (or others in this situation) decide to go back to the tivo platform, will are line item go back to tivo lifetime? Or will our DVR lifetime exempt us from additional tivo charges?


----------



## ebockelman

You can tell by looking at the statements that Tivo was in a much better bargaining position with this deal than they had been in the past. I really doubt that they felt that they NEEDED this. The Dish lawsuit has been going well for them, and while the Replay IP protects Directv a bit, the true protection has been from the existing Tivo deal. Extending it allows Directv to continue with many of the important features of the DVR+ platform.

All in all, I think it's a great deal for both companies, and a win for supporters of both platforms.


----------



## gregjones

Rakul said:


> While most of me thinks Ken is right that they will not support two HD DVR product lines, given their own information saying that they wanted to cut down on the number of different receivers. Part of my still hopes this will lead to much better features on the HR2x's at least before they go away


It is important to note that there are significant differences in the goals to reduce the number of hardware platforms versus the Tivo offering. First, it seems clear that the Tivo offering will be one of software, not hardware.

If the DirecTV developers have one internal codebase and one hardware platform, this still achieves significant savings. The DirecTV/Tivo team of developers will be separate but get paid separately. They will also work on a different timeline.

I do not think there is any reason to assume the HR2x is going anywhere.


----------



## dmurphy

Sixto said:


> My guess is that the TiVo service will be an additional charge just like any other feature.
> 
> Thought the old deal was $1 per subscriber to TiVo. "Substantial" could be another $1 (100%) or more ...


I'm curious how many subscribers have the DVR Lifetime subscription... I'm sure there's a larger percentage of us here at DBStalk than "in the wild", but even at that, I bet it's not "huge" ...

I'd be happy to have a modern DTiVo, and even happier if it's covered under my Lifetime fee. It should be - I wonder if there's any special clauses in this new agreement about it ...

Now, having said all that ... I really love my HR20. It's a great box. As far as I'm concerned, it's head-and-shoulders above the HR10-250. That thing was a dog.

I had a bunch of DTiVo's over the years, and my least favorite has always been the HR10. It was slow, buggy, and did I say slow?

I still have one GXCEBOT active on my account, and 4 DTiVo's sitting on a shelf in the basement....

My guess is that this is the end of the line for the R15/R16 series (not that we didn't expect that ...)

I'd guess that the R22/HR21/HR22 is the box that will get us to late '09 when we see the DTiVo device - whether that be a software upgrade for the existing hardware, or a new platform ...

If we could take the stability and advanced functions of the HR20 and merge them with the TiVo interface, that would really be fantastic. (and yes, I said stability... my HR20 is so much more stable than the HR10 ever was, it's not funny!)


----------



## bozzaj

bonscott87 said:


> It will be interesting to see if the Comcast/Cox Tivo will die off a slow death now.


I've toured the local Cox facilities (My business gets fiber-based IP Services from them), I saw their infrastructure for their OnDemand services. It was also hinted that they may be using those same systems for DVR services as well. With the recent announcement (allowing DVR data to be stored at the CO), I think the Tivo solution may disappear in favor of a better overall solution that most subscribers will love.


----------



## ebockelman

I think it's also important for people when they make their platform comparisons to compare apples to apples. A lot of people have been comparing HR2x to the HR10. The HR10 was slow and purposely feature crippled. The HR20 was released much later, when the components were significantly cheaper.

If you look at the Tivo S3 vs. the HR2x, you get a good idea of what the 2009 picture (allowing for the evolution of both platforms) will look like. By that time, features such as MRV will be common across the platforms. While Tivo has their own MRV (DLNA didn't exist back then), it would be cool if there was a DLNA client/server added, even as an HME app, so that they could do MRV to each other.


----------



## lovswr

Sixto said:


> Just re-read the press release ...
> 
> "Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service *for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*".
> 
> Looks like it's just a new software load for the HR2x. I wonder if it will be that simple.
> 
> Similar to what they did with cable. Just download the code you want.
> 
> Wow.


Good catch. I hope this is what happens, because in the market place driven society (& as my own CEO keeps telling us) "the brand" is what it is all about.

Could this signal a new direction in the (Tivo powered) CE process!


----------



## jimmyt

all this tivo goodness can be yours for the lease upgrade fee of $399.99.. lol


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

I wish I had bought TIVO stock last week


----------



## Bizarroterl

I am so there!


----------



## Ken S

bozzaj said:


> I've toured the local Cox facilities (My business gets fiber-based IP Services from them), I saw their infrastructure for their OnDemand services. It was also hinted that they may be using those same systems for DVR services as well. With the recent announcement (allowing DVR data to be stored at the CO), I think the Tivo solution may disappear in favor of a better overall solution that most subscribers will love.


Bozzaj,

Yes, especially with that recent cour decision. I see the cable companies moving to a virtual DVR of sorts. They already have the connection...it could reduce the cost of their DVRs by at least $100/unit when you consider not having to include HDs and the supporting functionality for them.

This is something DirecTV can't realistically offer...but, perhaps with Tivo, they can develop a great DVR with a feature set rich enough to compete with cable's offerings.


----------



## mattpol

DirecTV is finally realizing they couldn't get the DVR concept right on their own. Kudos to them for knowing that they need the pros back.


----------



## mogulman

Woohoo!!! I really like my HR20, but I will dump it like a sack of rocks if this becomes a reality!!! It would definitely keep me from switching to another service or OTA.


----------



## bozzaj

ebockelman said:


> If you look at the Tivo S3 vs. the HR2x, you get a good idea of what the 2009 picture (allowing for the evolution of both platforms) will look like. By that time, features such as MRV will be common across the platforms. While Tivo has their own MRV (DLNA didn't exist back then), it would be cool if there was a DLNA client/server added, even as an HME app, so that they could do MRV to each other.


This is an interesting note. I can see problems if customers find out they can't MRV between the different softwares. If the Tivo/current MRV solutions don't interoperate, it may cause some complaints.


----------



## tkrandall

The qutoes from the PR below are not clear on whether there will be a new box or not.....seems it might be.

_Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service *for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. *TiVo will develop the new HD DVR *for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.

*DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings* to both new and existing customers. *This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice *to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services._


----------



## SuperTech1

Competition is a good thing. As someone "shadowy" would say:

Bring it!


----------



## crawdad62

Sixto said:


> If this is as simple as a software download then this is very easy to implement.
> 
> All of DirecTV's hardware plans would continue, and you'd just download the new TiVo code when it's ready.
> 
> This is a great marketing advantage for DirecTV.
> 
> Everyone will be happy, especially if there is zero hardware investment for those with HR2x's already.


That would _*really*_ make this compelling. I'd probably opt for a new box if I had to but it would be nice (and I'm sure more people would give Tivo a whirl) if you can just update the OS of the box.

I left D* Tivo and went with fiber but along with lack of HD I really hated the SA8300 box. When I got D* hooked up again I found the HR21 to be not bad. Actually pretty decent. Even enough that I wouldn't jump at new hardware right away but if I can just update the box and be running Tivo software? You bet....... in a heartbeat.


----------



## rey_1178

Sixto said:


> If they really make it as simple as a software download to existing HR2x's then this is VERY interesting. Very.
> 
> Would save the investment in millions and millions of hardware.
> 
> Prefer Tivo, sure, no problem ... just download.
> 
> That certainly is one interpretation of the press release.


this is a good point. if i can't get dlb but i can get my hr21 to work flawlessly i would be very happy. include that with an HD GUI and we're good to go.


----------



## dave29

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I wish I had bought TIVO stock last week


i was thinking the same thing:lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Ken S said:


> bonscott87,
> 
> I agree with you there. Tivo HAD to do this deal and Liberty/DirecTV WANTED to do it.


 ... at the right price


----------



## cashoe

Wow, great news indeed!

Where do I sign up to be a tester for the HR3xx series?


----------



## stephenC

I wonder if Earl is working on this new project.


----------



## CCDMan

Kinda neat. I think the big deal is that D* is not going to be restricted in their innovation by patents held by others. They bought the Replay properties and now can also use Tivo properties and therefore have the potential to create an ideal machine. 

I also like the idea that they will continue the current HD DVRs and make the Tivo box the high end. They will feel less restricted by cost and may produce a better unit.

Now we can all hope they don't screw over this great opportunity.


----------



## bozzaj

Ken S said:


> Yes, especially with that recent cour decision. I see the cable companies moving to a virtual DVR of sorts. They already have the connection...it could reduce the cost of their DVRs by at least $100/unit when you consider not having to include HDs and the supporting functionality for them.
> 
> This is something DirecTV can't realistically offer...but, perhaps with Tivo, they can develop a great DVR with a feature set rich enough to compete with cable's offerings.


I think DirecTV will be perfectly capable of competing with the "Virtual DVR" once they have a home media solution, or at least fully working MRV. Cox is in bed with Scientific Atlanta, so most of their solutions come from there and I really don't think the SA folks are great interface programmers. Now that SA is owned by Cisco, I don't think that'll change at all.

DirecTV is getting better and better with their interface. Frankly, I hated the HRxx hardware when I first started using it. There were so many problems for me coming from DTivo hardware. Over time I've seen things get better and better. This new agreement may allow that interface to get even better. In fact, I think some things are much better with the HRxx over Tivo. I don't know if this has changed, but I think seeing the conflicts in the ToDo List (as items not being recorded) and being able to make a quick change right then and there is much better than the DTivo way of having to look in the History. On the opposite side, I think the HRxx wastes a ton of space that could be used for more information. For instance, having to look at each ToDo List item individually to see the original air date and then backing up to delete when they have all this extra space at the top of the list is a pain. At least with DTivo I could move from item to item in the list easier. The Guide seems to have a ton more wasted space as well. It would be nice if an HRxx connected via HD would have the option to use a smaller (and crisper) font. There would be tons of space to fit things!

A combination of both sides would produce an ultimate solution I think. Both sides have their good/bad and a combination of efforts would just be a big win for us.


----------



## rey_1178

Steve Robertson said:


> Sounds like the DVR service is going up my guess would be 10.00 a month for service


i wouldn't like that at all! :nono:


----------



## Sixto

How about one peanut remote for the HR2x with either software load?


----------



## noursegod

cashoe said:


> Wow, great news indeed!
> 
> Where do I sign up to be a tester for the HR3xx series?


I'm betting on an HR2x DirecTV+ HD DVR + Tivo Service


----------



## jmunick1

I think the TiVO DTV receivers have always lagged behind with software features where as with the HR20 you can choose to be cutting edge. Unless there are "just got to have" features with the TiVO I don't see the point anymore. You're choosing to go with a platform that has historically been left to sit a year or two between updates.


----------



## beavis

If it really is just a software download for the interface, I hope there's no esata issues.

Also, if it is just a software download, now that it has the TiVo interface, would a phone line/ethernet connection be required for updates...hmmm....


----------



## Steve

mattpol said:


> DirecTV is finally realizing they couldn't get the DVR concept right on their own. Kudos to them for knowing that they need the pros back.


I was a TiVo early-adopter and fan/loyalist from '99, when I got my first box, to March of '07, when I got my first HR-20 because I wanted to see the Yankee games in MPEG-4 HD. Over the years I've owned stand-alone TiVo's, Sat-T60's, HDVR2's and HR10's.

IMHO, the current HR2x platform is more feature-rich than any of those boxes, so unless there's some compelling "killer" feature advantage to switching back to the TiVo platform, I seriously doubt I'll pay a monthly premium over what I pay now, simply to switch back.

Just my .02. /steve


----------



## gregjones

Sixto said:


> How about one peanut remote for the HR2x with either software load?


Yeah, I really can't see the attraction of a different remote for the software load.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I would like to point out that the current RC series remotes will control previous-generation DirecTivos.


----------



## tony4d

I hate to say it, but maybe D* finally realized its very difficult to write good stable software. They've done a lot with the HR series dvrs, but let's be honest and call it what it is, stabilizing broken software from the beginning.

I'm not implying tivo is perfect by any means, but you have to admit that D* has had a hell of a time writing software for their dvrs.


----------



## ebockelman

jmunick1 said:


> I think the TiVO DTV receivers have always lagged behind with software features where as with the HR20 you can choose to be cutting edge. Unless there are "just got to have" features with the TiVO I don't see the point anymore. You're choosing to go with a platform that has historically been left to sit a year or two between updates.


Features like MRV and DLB? :lol:

In all seriousness, the Dtivos were behind, mostly due to purposeful crippling. Hopefully the new management at Directv won't request that with the new Dtivos.


----------



## gregjones

tony4d said:


> I hate to say it, but maybe D* finally realized its very difficult to write good stable software. They've done a lot with the HR series dvrs, but let's be honest and call it what it is, stabilizing broken software from the beginning.
> 
> I'm not implying tivo is perfect by any means, but you have to admit that D* has had a hell of a time writing software for their dvrs.


The great majority of HR2x users have seen a great amount of stability in the current product. This has been confirmed a number of times. The valid complaints are around specific features (DLB, suggestions) and design decisions (fewer series links, different guide).

A much better case could be made for manufacturing issues of the HR10-250 regarding its HDMI interface. This was not a no-confidence vote for the HR2x but a decision to offer the customers a separate interface.


----------



## tkrandall

the term "DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service" is used several times in this 8-K. Sounds like it may be deployed on a DTV platform.

_Form 8-K for TIVO INC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3-Sep-2008

Entry into a Material Definitive Agreement

ITEM 1.01. Entry into a Material Definitive Agreement. 
On September 2, 2008, we entered into a new Amended & Restated Development Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc., which amends and restates, our prior Development Agreement with DIRECTV. The new agreement extends the expiration date of our agreement with DIRECTV from February 15, 2010 to February 15, 2015, with DIRECTV having the right to extend further until February 15, 2018, subject to limited exceptions. Under the terms of our non-exclusive agreement, TiVo will develop a new version of the TiVo? service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled high definition DVR platform. As part of this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. On an annual basis, we will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded up-front by DIRECTV subject to limited future fee credits.

DIRECTV is also obligated to annual marketing commitments, including significant cross-channel promotion of the high definition DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo. Further, the new agreement extends each party's covenant not to assert its patents against the other party with respect to each company's products and services deployed prior to the expiration of the agreement, subject to limited exceptions. In addition, going forward, DIRECTV is entitled to most favored customer terms as compared with other multi-channel video distributors in the United States to whom TiVo grants a license to distribute certain TiVo technology in the future. DIRECTV has the right to terminate the agreement in the event we are the subject of certain change of control transactions involving certain companies. We also have the right to terminate the agreement, including the patent covenant, if we are unable to deliver the product within a specified time period due to non-TiVo issues.

In addition, on September 2, 2008, we entered into a new Second Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc., which amends and restates, our prior Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV. Under this new agreement, we continue to have the right to sell advertising and audience research and measurement products in connection with DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service deployed prior to the effective date of this new agreement, and such rights will extend to new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo.

The foregoing description of our new Amended & Restated Development Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc. and our new Second Amended & Restated Services Agreement with DIRECTV, Inc. is qualified in its entirety by reference to the provisions of those agreements that will be filed as exhibits with the Company's Form 10-Q for the fiscal quarter ended October 31, 2008._


----------



## FHSPSU67

If I could take the best of what's been said so far about the "best of both worlds" and trust that this would happen, I would be very happy. However, I've never seen the board and shareholders of any corporation happy supporting two different platforms that do basically the same thing (to the unknowing financial wizards). When money gets tight and it always does, it will be time to "rightsize", "consolidate" and "think outside the box". I can even see them taking the best of both groups of employees and telling them that they will now have the "excitement" of supporting both platforms.
Color me "Blue"


----------



## gregjones

ebockelman said:


> Features like MRV and DLB? :lol:
> 
> In all seriousness, the Dtivos were behind, mostly due to purposeful crippling. Hopefully the new management at Directv won't request that with the new Dtivos.


They were largely behind because of the numerous exploits used to hack the box. They ended up having to spend a great deal of time securing the software instead of implementing new features. The incredible hacker-friendliness of the HR10 was one of its biggest liabilities.


----------



## tony4d

gregjones said:


> The great majority of HR2x users have seen a great amount of stability in the current product. This has been confirmed a number of times. The valid complaints are around specific features (DLB, suggestions) and design decisions (fewer series links, different guide).
> 
> A much better case could be made for manufacturing issues of the HR10-250 regarding its HDMI interface. This was not a no-confidence vote for the HR2x but a decision to offer the customers a separate interface.


I didn't say the HR2 series dvrs weren't stable. I'm just saying they spent over a year stabilizing them. Most of that stability should have been there from the beginning in my opinion. BTW, guide tearing and slow remote response are still 2 very annoying issues that have gotten better over the years, but are still there none the less.


----------



## spectrumsp

This will be the way that D* finally deploys MRV! Hopefully the D*Tivo will be able to see the content on my HR2*'s...


----------



## flipptyfloppity

Can I apply the $200 I paid for lifetime TiVo service 5 years ago to this?


----------



## gregjones

spectrumsp said:


> This will be the way that D* finally deploys MRV! Hopefully the D*Tivo will be able to see the content on my HR2*'s...


Unlikely...

Read the CE threads and see that the majority of the components are already in testing.


----------



## pilotboy72

I had the DTivo before I got my HR21 and the ONLY reason I left was for hi-def content. I'm definitely a fan of the HR21 but the TiVo in my mind is and probably will always be the gold standard for DVRs. I'm very excited for this to be released.


----------



## davidfbfla

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You !!


----------



## Sirshagg

Chris Blount said:


> What an interesting turn of events. This should finally answer the prayers of those who never could quite part ways with Tivo.
> 
> I have to wonder though that when the Tivo DVR is finally released, how will it compare to the HR-XX line? Another year of CE's can place quite a dent in the value of Tivo.


That plus the considerable investment we have already made in purchasing (uh, leasing) multiple HRxx units already.


----------



## Doug Brott

tony4d said:


> I didn't say the HR2 series dvrs weren't stable. I'm just saying they spent over a year stabilizing them. Most of that stability should have been there from the beginning in my opinion. BTW, guide tearing and slow remote response are still 2 very annoying issues that have gotten better over the years, but are still there none the less.


Just a point of note .. my SAT-T60 TiVo had the worst remote response of any receiver I have ever owned .. That being said, I do believe it was specific to the Sony receiver as folks with the Philips never seemed to have that problem.


----------



## Doug Brott

flipptyfloppity said:


> Can I apply the $200 I paid for lifetime TiVo service 5 years ago to this?


There was no announced pricing .. so basically .. :shrug:


----------



## Sirshagg

dave29 said:


> i have never seen so many people viewing a thread...... 242 right now:eek2:


Back when D10 was about to go live I believe they had to turn that feature of the forum off. :lol:


----------



## VHS or Beta

> 2nd half of 2009


Translation: Thanksgiving/Christmas. Or 2010.


----------



## Curtis52

tkrandall said:


> the term "DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service" is used several times in this 8-K. Sounds like it may be deployed on a DTV platform.


 "DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service" is the official description of the current SD DirecTiVos. Nothing new there. I don't think TiVo was ever responsible for hardware manufacture. DTV contracted with Hughes, Samsung etc.


----------



## Doug Brott

gregjones said:


> They were largely behind because of the numerous exploits used to hack the box. They ended up having to spend a great deal of time securing the software instead of implementing new features. The incredible hacker-friendliness of the HR10 was one of its biggest liabilities.


You are correct .. In recent years, DIRECTV has been conservative with respect to Copyright concerns .. and allowing unrestricted access to content was a problem with the TiVo receivers.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sirshagg said:


> Back when D10 was about to go live I believe they had to turn that feature of the forum off. :lol:


We're on new servers now


----------



## smiddy

minorthr said:


> HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!! :eek2:


Yeah, what you said!  Mrs. Smiddy loved using the HR10-250, it took some time to get her used to the HR20-700 and HR21-200...now we're in for some potential termoil here if she hears about this.


----------



## paulman182

If they do what they say they are going to do in the press release, all this effort to get all DVR customers on similar software and same GUI is out the window.

I'll bet some HR2x programmers are feeling awfully frustrated right now.

Although using the HR2x platform with a TiVo download is an intrguing idea, some phrases in the press release certainly make it appear that there will be a separate TiVo box.


----------



## rahlquist

davemayo said:


> MIAMI1683 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would D* do this now :nono2: .
> 
> 
> 
> IMO they are doing this to get freedom under Tivo's patent portfolio. Tivo wants their software exposed to Directv customers, Directv wants to continue its license under Tivo's patents. Sounds like a quid pro quo to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I wonder which DB will wind up in future DVR now that Direct had purchased that new license?
> 
> Also wonder if the new DirecTivo will have Netflix and/or Amazon unbox etc.
> 
> Its going to be an interesting wait. Here is a good question will the Tivo unit be beta only through Tivo channels or will Cutting Edge play a role?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## groove93

Such great news!! Now I'm gonna drive home after work and expect a 5 million dollar check in the mail.

To be fair, there are features within the HR2X series that are great, if only the GUI was much more stable. With that said, the Simplicity and Stability of the Tivo interface are the Killer APPs for current converts. No longer is "time shift" the big attraction. 

For new comers to the DVR community it probably wouldn't matter what hits them first, Tivo, or Direct TV's interface, no matter what, it's all new to them.


If this means a price increase for service, for a extra three to 5 bucks, that's not breaking my wallet.


----------



## captain_video

I've got to admit, this is one announcement I never thought I'd see, at least not in my lifetime. Pass a helping of that crow my way. It will be interesting to see how this develops and what the final product will be. I'd be surprised if the new HD DVR with Tivo is a downloadable software update for the HRXX platform. Tivo has too many proprietary circuits built into their DVRs to do this effectively on another platform. They tried it with the Comcast DVRs and apparently that hasn't worked out too well for them. Then again, the HRxx DVRs seem to be a better DVR than either the Motorola or Scientific Atlanta offerings so we'll just have to wait and see.

I have no doubt that the Tivo DVRs will demand a much higher monthly premium than the DirecTV DVRs. DirecTV dropped Tivo because it wasn't making them enough money so rest assured they won't make the same mistake twice. No doubt the new Tivos will also be leased and not owned. That will make it interesting to see how the hacking community approaches the new platform. I'd be surprised if anyone would be willing to perform a PROM mod on a box they don't own.

I'm guessing the new Tivos will also have to include features not available on the HRXX series of DVRs in order to justify the higher cost. The average DirecTV subscriber couldn't care less what DVR they use as long as it records the latest episode of Survivor without fail. The diehard DVR users are the ones that will migrate to the new Tivo.

I look forward to the day the new Tivo is released, as I'm sure many of you do.


----------



## Lee L

dave29 said:


> i dont know why this was announced a year in advance as this may stop "some" people from subscribing to directv until then.......


Aside from the aforemntiond material impact stuff for SEC filing, it also could keep some people with DirecTV that are just now facing losing the HR10s or otherwise contemplating moving to cable with the HD TiVO and the new 2 way add on box for cable cards.



Herdfan said:


> With that said, it will be very interesting to see what the interface looks like and what features it will have. As is stands now, I like the HR2x interface/feature set better and would not go back. The one exception would be if the HR2x series does not have MRV by then and the TiVo does. I will not go back for DLB.


Personally, I will say that I do like the HR20 interface more than I thought once I got used to it. The features of the HR20 are also pretty good in many ways and I have pretty much given up any major love for my HR10s.

The one thing I do miss is recording reliability. Sure, I missed a few things using the HR10s due to guide data, but have missed many times more than that with the HR20. Plus, the whole mechanisim for checking history and To Do is easier on the TiVo platform. We are entering a new fall season and I know that DirecTV has put in some work regarding stability and recording, so maybe (hopefully) it is fixed. However, if I still miss things and the new TiVo software brings better reliablity I will have to consider it even if it is more costly.


----------



## Sirshagg

bonscott87 said:


> I'm surprised but good news all around.
> 
> However I will not pay extra to have Tivo loaded on my DVRs. My DVRs are just fine for me and the Tivo versions would have to go way beyond with some key functionality for me to pay extra. To pay extra for a GUI is not worth it to me. Plus it would have to have all the key features of the DVR+ line that Tivo does not have. Plus there better not be any ads in Tivo Central and all over the place as on the Series 3's.
> 
> But good for people to have a choice.


Like in the guide, oh wait


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> If this is as simple as a software download then this is very easy to implement.


Yeah, just ask Comcast. :sure:


----------



## boba

Is my HR10-250 worth anymore now? Seriously I hope that year passes rapidly.


----------



## Sirshagg

Steve Robertson said:


> Sounds like the DVR service is going up my guess would be 10.00 a month for service


I doubt it. Probably something more like "DVR Access" as a new tier of DVR service so they can stick it to the lifetime folks too.


----------



## jaywdetroit

woooo Hooooo


----------



## Reaper

I think that the best news is that there is language in the agreement to protect the parties from suing each other. If E* loses their case with TIVO, look for mass defections to D* (to be followed shortly by E* selling their satellite assets to D*. “Can you say ‘bandwidth’? I knew you could!”).

Having said that though, the original DIRECTV HD DVR with TIVO truly SUCKED. The guide was incredibly slow and each time you went to a menu you lost picture and sound. This unit even drove me to E* for a couple of years! IMHO the DIRECTV HD Plus DVR is a much better unit. Of course this is 8-9 years later so we'll see what TIVO’s new technology brings. 

I'd love me some PIP action like E*'s HD DVRs feature.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Let's just hope for a merging of softwares. While ARSL supposedly exists, the wish list for Tivo was much more intuitive and was better at following show changes.

While their at it, DTV needs to dump Tribune. Why is anyone still using Tribune for their guide? Off topic. Sorry.


----------



## dmurphy

captain_video said:


> I have no doubt that the Tivo DVRs will demand a much higher monthly premium than the DirecTV DVRs. DirecTV dropped Tivo because it wasn't making them enough money so rest assured they won't make the same mistake twice.


I wouldn't make that assumption. I don't think any of us were privvy to the actual discussions, but remember that DirecTV management and ownership were in a different time & place.

At the time, DirecTV's majority owner also owned a company that manufactured a line of DVRs. Keep that in mind ...


----------



## nikwax

great news! We had Tivo for years and (except for the part where it was really really slow to update the Season Passes) I really miss it compared to the HR700 we have now. 

Of course, the new Tivo will be bug free at launch ;-)


----------



## Sirshagg

Tom Robertson said:


> Post #2 has been created with this SEC filing summary: http://biz.yahoo.com/e/080903/tivo8-k.html


I'm all for bringing TiVo back but i'm just not getting what's in this for DirecTv. Their in-house DVR isn't THAT bad that they should _need_ this deal.


----------



## Sixto

Sirshagg said:


> Yeah, just ask Comcast. :sure:


One major difference. TiVo knows DirecTV very well.


----------



## fornold

According to this Reuters article TIVO is saying the fees/DVR that DirecTV will pay TIVO will be much higher than the previous agreement. It would be surprising if DirecTV didn't pass those costs on to the customer.

Reuters Article


----------



## belunos

Ok, now for my $.02

I've had nothing but problems with the HR line, and I've been through about 4 of them for various problems. So, I'm hoping they won't be trying to use the same hardware like they're doing with comcast.

Also, from some of the comments it sounds like people are feeling.. I dunno, betrayed? It doesn't make any sense, how does have choices mean bad things?


----------



## rahlquist

jediphish said:


> The HDirecTiVo and the HD DVR+ will eventually merge into a single unit - the best of BOTH WORLDS!!!!!


Dont downplay the Real purchase either. If a full blend of all 3 technology catalogs is possible this could be a show stopper.

Now if they could buy someone like popcorn.......


----------



## rahlquist

stephenC said:


> I wonder if Earl is working on this new project.


It would be nice to know anything about Earls involvement at this point.


----------



## Chip Moody

I've already got DirecTV - but now saying that my interest in getting an HR-xx for myself has waned would be an understatement. I'll stick with the stand-alone IRDs and outboard recording setup I've already got and wait a while longer for an HD recorder...

- Chip



dave29 said:


> i dont know why this was announced a year in advance as this may stop "some" people from subscribing to directv until then.......


----------



## Sirshagg

jimmyt said:


> all this tivo goodness can be yours for the lease upgrade fee of $399.99.. lol


:down: :down: :down:


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> How about one peanut remote for the HR2x with either software load?


I wouldn't even trade my Harmony remote for a Tivo peanut.


----------



## BubblePuppy

dave29 said:


> i dont know why this was announced a year in advance as this may stop "some" people from subscribing to directv until then.......


This sort of announcement killed the Osborne Computer Company. When the OCC announced that their next line of computers will also be IBM compatable people stopped buying the Osborne 1 in anticipation of the Osborne II and the cash dried up. Goodbye Osborne.


----------



## smiddy

While it is too early to tell, I suspect that the *Cutting Edge *program will likely be impacted by this announcement in ways we can only imagine.


----------



## psweig

I guess hell froze over.


----------



## Sirshagg

gregjones said:


> They were largely behind because of the numerous exploits used to hack the box. They ended up having to spend a great deal of time securing the software instead of implementing new features. The incredible hacker-friendliness of the HR10 was one of its biggest liabilities.


the chicken or the egg...

I believe the box was hacked becasue of the crippled features.


----------



## Sirshagg

spectrumsp said:


> This will be the way that D* finally deploys MRV! Hopefully the D*Tivo will be able to see the content on my HR2*'s...


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

I can't wait another year for MRV


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Yo D*!

Please, remember to include an OTA option. Whether internal, or add-on.


----------



## Araxen

Yes! I'm waiting with baited breath to ship my HR20-100 back to Directv and get my Tivo back!!!! YAY!!!!!


----------



## hyde76

Woo freaking hoo! It's about time.


----------



## ebockelman

Doug Brott said:


> You are correct .. In recent years, DIRECTV has been conservative with respect to Copyright concerns .. and allowing unrestricted access to content was a problem with the TiVo receivers.


Directv created the largest part of that problem.

The crippling of features such as MRV and HMO was a Directv decision. Most users hacked their boxes to enable things like MRV, and the extraction methods just came along with it.

Considering that the R10 was locked down well (requiring a hardware modification to hack it), the content security aspect was taken care of well before Directv dropped Tivo.


----------



## carlsbad_bolt_fan

psweig said:


> I guess hell froze over.


I was gonna say that! :hurah:


----------



## Doug Brott

rahlquist said:


> It would be nice to know anything about Earls involvement at this point.


At this time, I can tell you that Earl ...


Spoiler



works for DIREC*TV* .. and I'm happy for him ..


----------



## Tom Robertson

ebockelman said:


> Directv created the largest part of that problem.
> 
> The crippling of features such as MRV and HMO was a Directv decision. Most users hacked their boxes to enable things like MRV, and the extraction methods just came along with it.
> 
> Considering that the R10 was locked down well (requiring a hardware modification to hack it), the content security aspect was taken care of well before Directv dropped Tivo.


The fact the TiVo was easily hackable was a huge problem.

The crippling of MRV and HMO was likely a mutual decision (or more likely a stalemate.)


----------



## dmurphy

Doug Brott said:


> At this time, I can tell you that Earl ...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> works for DIREC*TV* .. and I'm happy for him ..


+1

As happy as I am to see that his career is going well, I'm happier that he has a beautiful baby girl in his life... she's a doll!

</OffTopic>


----------



## Sirshagg




----------



## LI-SVT

Where do I sign up?!


----------



## MercurialIN

I have such mixed emotions about this. At first I thought it must be a joke. Once I realized it was legit I was torn.

I really loved my two stand alone Tivos. When I switched to the HR 20 I really missed TiVo very much, but over time I have come to appreciate the HR 20 and now I'm not sure I'd want to switch.

I enjoy being a part of the CE program and take it very seriously and I would want to remain a part of that. That said, I still miss TiVo suggestions (I know most people hated that) and I miss DLB and I truly want to have MRV. If TiVo could offer that I would have to consider it if my HR 20-700 would die. But I definitely need OTA though and dual tuners. Wouldn't give up on screen Caller ID either.

Wouldn't want to give up Media Share either, although it's not worked correctly for me, in a very long time. I had paid the "lifetime" fee for both of my stand alone TiVo's back in 2001 but don't have any documentation of such so don't know if that would do me any good or not with the new HD TiVo.

Bottom line for me, best of both worlds would be to get the TiVo service on my HR 20-700. Thanks Directv for offering us a choice.


----------



## Doug Brott

MercurialIN said:


> Wouldn't give up on screen Caller ID either.


 .. that's one of my favorite features as well .. I always had to hack the TiVo box to get that one on ..


----------



## Tom Robertson

Oh, yeah. 30sec skip without hacking... Forgot about that one...


----------



## Alebob911

+1 Don't know which way it will go. 



smiddy said:


> While it is too early to tell, I suspect that the *Cutting Edge *program will likely be impacted by this announcement in ways we can only imagine.


----------



## Tom Robertson

CE Program won't go anywhere that I know of. Evolve, of course.


----------



## ebockelman

Tom Robertson said:


> Oh, yeah. 30sec skip without hacking... Forgot about that one...


Which boxes need hacked to support 30 second skip?


----------



## cdavis0720

This isn't supposed to be happening until late 2009 at best????? I predict this will be either number 1 or number 2 in longest threads ever.


Carl


----------



## BlueSnake

Sirshagg said:


> I'm all for bringing TiVo back but i'm just not getting what's in this for DirecTv. Their in-house DVR isn't THAT bad that they should _need_ this deal.


If I remember correctly, there are very few if any favorable reviews out there on the HR series of DVRs. I think that's what's probably in this for DirecTV.


----------



## mchaney

Let's hope the new Tivo box: (a) works: that would be an improvement over the super buggy HR2* series and (b) that it isn't so slow as to make it unusable like the HR10-250 was. The day I have to wait 20 minutes for the Tivo to update one season pass is the day I get my sledgehammer back out!

Mike


----------



## cdavis0720

BlueSnake said:


> If I remember correctly, there are very few if any favorable reviews out there on the HR series of DVRs. I think that's what's probably in this for DirecTV.


That's very true at least for the first 6 months of the HR series.... I don't know if that is AS true for the last 6 months.

Carl


----------



## Tom Robertson

ebockelman said:


> Which boxes need hacked to support 30 second skip?


All TiVos.

Doug reminds me that truly the HR2x requires an option to set SKIP mode, but that is a one-time backdoor. TiVos need a true hack or an every reboot backdoor for 30sec skip.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

It's about time that some hardware expert look inside a cable HD TiVo, an HR10, and an HR2x and compare the hardware.

Other then the tuner aspects, is there much different?

We know that the processors are the same.

What propriety hardware (other then tuner/SWM) is different?


----------



## JoeTheDragon

How about a multi-room TIVO with 4-5+ HD tuners + OTA. With mini boxes on each TV. And give it E-sata ports with A a drive not replace the build in drive while it is still running but not doing any things or a least spin down the build in disk.

You can keep the sd only boxs for people who don't want a DVR.

u-verse has multi-room but it can only do 2 HD and 2 SD.


----------



## jimbo713

Any shape or flavor of TiVo will lure those that left DirecTV that love TiVo back - and will be a viable, note worthy, customer focused option for new TiVo users down the road. DiercTV will see me come roaring back in late 2009!


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Sixto said:


> It's about time that some hardware expert look inside a cable HD TiVo, an HR10, and an HR2x and compare the hardware.
> 
> Other then the tuner aspects, is there much different?
> 
> We know that the processors are the same.
> 
> What propriety hardware (other then tuner/SWM) is different?


They use SATA disks the older ones may use IDE disks. How much ram and what is the cpu speed of the boxes?


----------



## Sirshagg

mchaney said:


> Let's hope the new Tivo box: (a) works: that would be an improvement over the super buggy HR2* series and (b) that it isn't so slow as to make it unusable like the HR10-250 was. The day I have to wait 20 minutes for the Tivo to update one season pass is the day I get my sledgehammer back out!
> 
> Mike


But with more than 50 Series links you probably wouldn't need to update the season passes a couple times a week.

If this is going to be TiVo software on the HR platform it will be interesting to see if they can break the 50 SL limit that DirecTv guys can't seem to.


----------



## Sixto

JoeTheDragon said:


> They use SATA disks the older ones may use IDE disks. How much ram and what is the cpu speed of the boxes?


New cable TiVo HD is SATA.


----------



## ebockelman

Tom Robertson said:


> All TiVos.
> 
> Doug reminds me that truly the HR2x requires an option to set SKIP mode, but that is a one-time backdoor. TiVos need a true hack or an every reboot backdoor for 30sec skip.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Meh. A remote macro gives it to you after a reboot. There are a number of important distinguishing features between the platforms, but I would hardly call that one of them.


----------



## rahlquist

Doug Brott said:


> .. that's one of my favorite features as well .. I always had to hack the TiVo box to get that one on ..


*gasp* what is this hacking of which you speak!?!?!


----------



## Tom Robertson

ebockelman said:


> Meh. A remote macro gives it to you after a reboot. There are a number of important distinguishing features between the platforms, but I would hardly call that one of them.


Show me where on the peanut one creates that macro and I'll concede your downgrade...


----------



## Sixto

The most significant question for any future chat, conference, trade show ...
Will the new TiVo software run on an existing HR20 or HR21?​Just need the answer to that one simple question.

Many, many other questions but please ask that one question exactly as stated.

If the answer is "yes" then DirecTV just pulled off an amazing announcement.

Everyone will be happy.

With one caveat ... that the TiVo software "performs" well ... speedwise.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> The most significant question for any future chat, conference, trade show ...
> Will the new TiVo service run on an existing HR20 or HR21?​Just need the answer to that one simple question.
> 
> Many, many other questions but please ask that one question exactly as stated.
> 
> If the answer is "yes" then DirecTV just pulled off an amazing announcement.
> 
> Everyone will be happy.
> 
> With one caveat ... that the TiVo software "performs" well ... speedwise.


I presume you also mean existing HR2x as in field upgradable too?


----------



## Seabow

I have a SD Tivo and the HR20.

I like the HR20 better. 

Everytime I have to reboot my Tivo (which is often) I have to reprogram the 30 sec skip feature. I hate it that I can't see tv programs while viewing a list or view the guide while watching a recording. The program guide is faster on the HR20. I like the 12 hr skip on the HR20 guide. I like the 4x speed on HR20.

And what's the obsession with DLB? All you need to do is record one show while watching another. Then use the back button to switch between shows. This method is better anyway, because the program is automatically paused on the recording. Switching between DLB on the Tivo, I have to constantly rewind. Plus with DLB, if you accidently press the wrong button (like another channel) then you lose the buffer. I prefer having a 90 minute buffer than two 30 minute ones.

Granted my Tivo is old, so maybe the new Tivo's will have better features, so I'll give the new one a try when it comes out. But I love my HR20 now.


----------



## ebockelman

Tom Robertson said:


> Show me where on the peanut one creates that macro and I'll concede your downgrade...


Touché. 

I can't assume everyone has a programmable remote. (Although I would guess that a high percentage of the readers of this forum do.)


----------



## jasonnerothin

I've been sticking with my Weaknees-moded Phillips-704 (TiVo-powered) alongside my H21 for almost a year now because we refused to give up the TiVO UI. I've been pounding the /thanks URL with TiVO requests and now it looks like we finally will get what we want.

It'd be nice if we don't have to pay to rent one, but that's another story...


----------



## Jhon69

Well I believe that choice is a good thing.But in no way should DirecTV get rid of their DVR+ line.Not to have their nads held hostage again.:sure: 

Fool me once,shame on you.Fool me twice shame on me.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Here's a good story..

I'm having lunch with my wife today, and I mention the late '09 TiVo reintroduction. 

She says, "Who cares - I really like the speed and usefulness of our DVR (2 HR20-700). 

I ask, "What do you miss most from tivo?

Answers, "That thing were could pause two live TV shows and switch back and forth"

She pauses and says, "When can we switch back to TiVo?"


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> I presume you also mean existing HR2x as in field upgradable too?


Yep. "Existing".

Let me re-phrase the question:Will the new TiVo software run on an existing HR20/HR21/HR22 and be field upgradeable?​A simple yes/no answer is fine.

If "yes" then this is amazing news and would not slow down any HD sales ...


----------



## kw2957

Tom Robertson said:


> CE Program won't go anywhere that I know of. Evolve, of course.


I hope this is the case, with as much commitment to CE'rs that we see now ( nearly every weekend).


----------



## Jhon69

We will see how much DirecTV subscribers love and want Tivo once they see the price!.:eek2:


----------



## turey22

guys chill out on the posting...i can only refresh so many times and read so much...you guys lost me back on page 3.


----------



## DarinC

Tom Robertson said:


> TiVos need a true hack or an every reboot backdoor for 30sec skip.


I don't see what the difference is. I had to enter a specific sequence of buttons on the remote to enable the 30 sec skip on my TiVos, and I have to do the same thing with the HR21s. Now, if the TiVos were as unstable as the HR21s, I could see where the reboot issue would be a problem (I don't think my HR21s have been up longer than a week or two at a time), but I'm not aware of my HR10 rebooting in the past year. In the 5+ years I've had TiVos, I think I've only re-enabled the skip a handful of times.

There are some things I like better in the HR21 (like the PIG), but the difference in enabling 30s skip is a complete non-issue to me.


----------



## spoonman

turey22 said:


> guys chill out on the posting...i can only refresh so many times and read so much...you guys lost me back on page 3.


I gave up after page 4 and just skipped to the end :grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

DarinC said:


> I don't see what the difference is. I had to enter a specific sequence of buttons on the remote to enable the 30 sec skip on my TiVos, and I have to do the same thing with the HR21s. Now, if the TiVos were as unstable as the HR21s, I could see where the reboot issue would be a problem (I don't think my HR21s have been up longer than a week or two at a time), but I'm not aware of my HR10 rebooting in the past year. In the 5+ years I've had TiVos, I think I've only re-enabled the skip a handful of times.
> 
> There are some things I like better in the HR21 (like the PIG), but the difference in enabling 30s skip is a complete non-issue to me.


The difference is the HR2x has 30s Slip out of the box and you only need to enter the backdoor once to make it 30s Skip.

TiVo's need a backdoor after every reboot or a more significant hack to make it permanent. (Not just a button sequence.)

I've had more power outages (and rolling blackouts when in CA) than you, obviously.  (And now with 10 DVRs, that would be a lot of button pushes.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mitchelljd

Capmeister said:


> Sounds to me like DirecTV is giving its Tivo customers what they wanted. Again, I find D* amazingly responsive to customer needs.


Responsive about 9 months slow. this should have been done a while back. Better late than never.

Guess the new owners of Directv realized that having choices is a good thing.

I will pickup a couple of the tivo boxes. hopefully they will be reasonably priced and have options for a 1 TB hard drive box. with Dual Live Buffers and same home network content sharing.

that would be terrific.


----------



## turey22

i dont know if its been asked but since with a tivo you need to have a phone like conected to it, to get the software will you need to do the same? or have to get "tivo" updates??? or will tivo just make the software and let us take it over after they make it and we will handle how to realse it?


----------



## ToddinVA

Woohoo!! This is fantastic news! I guess I'll keep my HR10-250 (along with my HR20) until this new one comes out. I assume DLB will make a comeback as well...   :joy: 

I wonder what BoltJames thinks of this?? :lol:


----------



## turey22

spoonman said:


> I gave up after page 4 and just skipped to the end :grin:


:lol: true story


----------



## turey22

watch it be something different than what you guys expect it to be, haha


----------



## MikeR7

I think they should make this new TIVO with quad buffers, DLB is so early 21st century.


----------



## rahlquist

Sixto said:


> If "yes" then this is amazing news and would not slow down any HD sales ...


Sixto, are you worried about the Osborne effect?


----------



## houskamp

turey22 said:


> watch it be something different than what you guys expect it to be, haha


That's what I'm thinking too... They've had trouble with the cable ones..
Hard to say what it will be like (and how long it will take in development)..
Would sure hate to start over where the HR20 was a few years ago..


----------



## Sixto

TiVo CEO speaking right now at Investor conference ...http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=331124​Listening right now ...

Wish I could ask a question!!!!


----------



## billsharpe

I would have jumped at this news a year ago, but my HR20-700 has been working just fine since the July national software release, so it's a ho-hum for now. :sleeping:

I, too, jumped to the last page after reading the first few messages.


----------



## Jhon69

turey22 said:


> guys chill out on the posting...i can only refresh so many times and read so much...you guys lost me back on page 3.


Didn't you get the memo?.How to Super Refresh?.:lol:


----------



## DarinC

Tom Robertson said:


> I've had more power outages (and rolling blackouts when in CA) than you, obviously.


I am shocked (and maybe even a little appalled!) that you don't use UPSs. :girlscrea


----------



## turey22

Jhon69 said:


> Didn't you get the memo?.How to Super Refresh?.:lol:


no, how do i do that???


----------



## bltx1

After reading the news this morning, I am very excited about having a Directv HD Tivo product. This was unexpected but it actually restores some of the confidence that I had in Directv when I subscribed ten years ago. For most of that time, I had Tivo DVRs and they worked great. The HR10-250 was slow, but I learned how to not tax its limited resources and life was good. My Tivo DVRs were reliable! But, content is king and I was forced to move to the HR20 for the new content and as of August, lost my HD DNS rendering my HR10s almost useless. 

I have HR21s to replace the HR10s and they have not even been as good as the HR20 I have (subtle but annoying differences except the failure to recover from rain fade which is very annoying). I mention this because I hope that Directv will choose a hardware platform that works reliably with Tivo software. This could also speed the DVR to market faster. (No repeat of the Comcast challenges). I have an S3 Tivo that performs flawlessly. I can't help but wonder if there are so many HRXX hardware platforms out there that this is also adding challenges to the code development. 

As my local cable company continues to add the HD channels that I am most interested in viewing, the choice to move to cable only with my Tivo S3 was looming. I will wait and watch...


----------



## Jhon69

turey22 said:


> no, how do i do that???


Just put that mouse pointer on the browser reload and click like crazy!!  .


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> TiVo CEO speaking right now at Investor conference ...http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=331124​Listening right now ...
> 
> Wish I could ask a question!!!!


Echostar money coming ... tomorrow new news ... mentioned $100M ...

Good quarter financially ...

Many new patents ...

Only caught last 20 minutes of presentation ... will go back and listen from the beggining ...

DirecTV announcement: ... delivery about a year away ... no financial info yet ...

"All the bells and whistles" ... "equally or more successful going forward" ...


----------



## gregjones

BubblePuppy said:


> This sort of announcement killed the Osborne Computer Company. When the OCC announced that their next line of computers will also be IBM compatable people stopped buying the Osborne 1 in anticipation of the Osborne II and the cash dried up. Goodbye Osborne.


These announcements are not frivolous and are required by the SEC.


----------



## Alan Gordon

I'm not going to lie... I think this is GREAT news!!

That being said, I'm not sure how much I truly care anymore...

The HR20 has been slowly getting better, and while there are many TiVo features I miss (especially considering it appears that the TiVo abilities in this new unit won't be scaled back like the HR10-250, and will be more like the EXCELLENT TiVo Series 3), there would be some HR20 features I miss just as much.

Barring bad reviews, high prices, etc., I can totally see me upgrading my HR10-250and SD-DVR to the new HD-TiVo, but I'll have to wait and see before I'll know what to do regarding my HR20.

~Alan


----------



## Doug Brott

DarinC said:


> I am shocked (and maybe even a little appalled!) that you don't use UPSs. :girlscrea


I can assure you that a UPS would never last through a rolling blackout  .. at least not the consumer price-friendly kind.


----------



## elbodude

This is great...until Dish buys Tivo. :lol:


----------



## Bushwacr

houskamp said:


> That's what I'm thinking too... They've had trouble with the cable ones..
> Hard to say what it will be like (and how long it will take in development)..
> Would sure hate to start over where the HR20 was a few years ago..


The cable ones were killed by cable. CC's never really worked one way and don't work interactively.

And cable decided to implement SDV (which is being reviewed as to legality by the FCC) which the cable companies knew would kill off Tivo use. SDV is probably the real nutcracker to its failure.

D* hopefully is a bit smarter.


----------



## LameLefty

Doug Brott said:


> I can assure you that a UPS would never last through a rolling blackout  .. at least not the consumer price-friendly kind.


But you can usually buy yourself enough time for a graceful shutdown if you happen to be home at the time. 

EDITED: Of course, that only really applies to equipment that CAN shut down (and not just turn off the status lights on the front. )


----------



## islesfan

WOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Of course, I'm still stuck with my HR20 and HR21 until I see the $ and the economy turns, but as soon as I need to replace a DVR it is great to know TiVo will be back!!!


----------



## jeffgus

MikeR7 said:


> I think they should make this new TIVO with quad buffers, DLB is so early 21st century.


I know everyone goes on and on about the DLB. I love that feature also, but the thing I also like about Tivo is the way it presents the channel schedule. I don't like the grid style because it can't display anything beyond a couple of hours. Tivo has the Tivo-ish (tabbed style) way of listing the shows hours in advance. This is great for movie channels that have long blocks of programming.

I don't know why Tivo even licensed the patent for the grid style. The Tivo style makes so much more sense to me.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

whoa.. I take one morning off and I miss 13 pages.. I'm on my lunch break and on my iPhone.. Can someone summorize for me?? :grin:


----------



## reweiss

If DirecTV can add the following functions from TiVo (now that they likely have the licensing to do so) and add them to the HR2x line, I will not have much use for the TiVo DVRs and will LOVE my HR2x DVRs:
-MRV
-DLB
-The ability to learn what I like to watch and fill up the hard drive with shows/movies I may be interested in. I know some people think this is a lame function, but on rainy weekends when I've watched all of the shows I recorded, it's nice to catch some reruns of shows I wouldn't normally record but would watch because it is better than what is currently on 'live tv'. 
-The TiVo popping sounds when you choose different functions (or allow us to choose our own sounds). (C'mon, admit it, you like the TiVo popping sounds too, don't you  )
-The better 'peanut' remote (it's easier to use, feels more comfortable and the TiVo DVRs seem to be more responsive to the remote).


----------



## scottjf8

So THIS is what Earl is working on at DTV?? 

Not sure I want one... when I go from my HR21 to my S2 TiVo, it feels archaic. Especially navigating menu's without watching a show, or moving things around in the Season Pass list to have it sit there for 5 minutes unable to do anything.


----------



## Jhon69

jeffgus said:


> I know everyone goes on and on about the DLB. I love that feature also, but the thing I also like about Tivo is the way it presents the channel schedule. I don't like the grid style because it can't display anything beyond a couple of hours. Tivo has the Tivo-ish (tabbed style) way of listing the shows hours in advance. This is great for movie channels that have long blocks of programming.
> 
> I don't know why Tivo even licensed the patent for the grid style. The Tivo style makes so much more sense to me.


The HRs and Rs do that too.Just highlight the channel(All the way to the left on the guide) and press info.


----------



## turey22

AirRocker said:


> whoa.. I take one morning off and I miss 13 pages.. I'm on my lunch break and on my iPhone.. Can someone summorize for me?? :grin:


CLIFFNOTES, thats what we need!


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Echostar money coming ... tomorrow new news ... mentioned $100M ...
> 
> Good quarter financially ...
> 
> Many new patents ...
> 
> Only caught last 20 minutes of presentation ... will go back and listen from the beggining ...
> 
> DirecTV announcement: ... delivery about a year away ... no financial info yet ...
> 
> "All the bells and whistles" ... "equally or more successful going forward" ...


Just listened to the beginning of the investor conference ... CEO Tom Rogers today ...

DVR's in 25M homes ... growing to 50m-60m ...

Broadband: DVR=Digital Video Retriever ... infinite choice ... swivel search ...

New deal with DirecTV ... was a terrific relationship ... was wonderful for both ... millions of subscribers ... best way to watch TV ... problem cured ... new deal ...

had great marriage ... now back ... new leading edge features for DirecTV ...

no other details ...


----------



## rahlquist

elbodude said:


> This is great...until Dish buys Tivo. :lol:


are you kidding, their stock is going down.


----------



## jeffgus

Jhon69 said:


> The HRs and Rs do that too.Just highlight the channel(All the way to the left on the guide) and press info.


Yes, I know about this function. As you know, it's not quite the same. For one thing, it is terribly slow.


----------



## Sixto

"I just checked in with TiVo. They will be using DirecTV hardware (not the TiVo HD platform as I had assumed). Who knows if it'll be available as a software "upgrade" for existing boxes or a separate box (as they've done in the past)."

"UPDATE TiVo has just clarified for me that the service will run on DirecTV hardware, not the TiVo HD hardware as I had assumed."

post by Dave Zatz in two other places ...


----------



## DarinC

Doug Brott said:


> I can assure you that a UPS would never last through a rolling blackout  .. at least not the consumer price-friendly kind.


Heh, well I don't even know what a "rolling" blackout is, so I guess it doesn't apply to my area.  But I do have a HUGE UPS (takes a 25 amp service). If I turn everything else off that is on it (TV, receiver, etc.) it will keep the DVRs, router, cable modem, and VoIP gateway running most of the day. In the 15 years I've been in this house, we've only had one outage that lasted more than 1 day (major storm that brought down lots of trees). I'm close to a sub-station... it's _extremely _rare to have an outage that lasts more than an hour.


----------



## Blitz68

Tivo's are brutally slow compared to DirecTV's boxes. :nono: 

Love my R's & HR's


----------



## Steve Robertson

I think that is great that it can run on the D* boxes can't wait to see what they are going to bring to the table. I just hope it is faster than the HD Tivo box I had before or I won't be interested


----------



## DarinC

Blitz68 said:


> Tivo's are brutally slow compared to DirecTV's boxes. :nono:


Which TiVos are you comparing to?


----------



## Sixto

Steve Robertson said:


> I think that is great that it can run on the D* boxes can't wait to see what they are going to bring to the table. I just hope it is faster than the HD Tivo box I had before or I won't be interested


Seems confirmed that it will run on DirecTV hardware.

Now just need to find out if it will run on existing DirecTV hardware (HR2x) that is installed today and be field upgradeable with a simple download.

A new option on the HR2x screen to "download and wipe for TiVo".

And an option on the TiVo to "download and wipe for non-TiVo".

Very interesting next 12 months ... Be nice to get the upgrade question answered very soon.


----------



## ShinerDraft

I skipped pages 4-15 so forgive me if I missed something..

I'm a pretty new DTV subscriber (February of this year) and switched over because of all the HD channels, HDPC20 anticipation and the improving features of the HR's.. This announcement makes me feel even better about my decision to switch to DTV.

I have nothing to base this on, but my gut is telling me that this offering will be a Tivo manufactured box that just has the keys to DTV's signal/protocols/content. I haven't been to the Tivo forums in a while, but I do know that they had a "Series 4" on their roadmap. Perhaps Tivo's goal is to make the S4 compatible with either CableCard or DTV. If this is the case, I'd suspect that the S4 would be *very* successful.

In this type of arrangement, Tivo would gain customers that like DTV's content offerings. DTV gains customers that love their Tivo interface.

DTV supports the hardware & software on their DVR's. Tivo supports the hardware & software on theirs. DTV provides content to both.

I like it. It sounds like a win for us.. (FINALLY!!)

With that said, I don't know for sure that I'll go with the Tivo package offered. I'm mostly happy with my HR's and I imagine that they'll have some new features in place long before these boxes are available. On the other side, Tivo has some really cool features on their S3. MRV, media portability, etc, etc.. The HDPC20 (if it ever sees the light of day) is also an attractive option. It's looking like there really are going to be nice options in about a year..


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> "I just checked in with TiVo. They will be using DirecTV hardware (not the TiVo HD platform as I had assumed). Who knows if it'll be available as a software "upgrade" for existing boxes or a separate box (as they've done in the past)."
> 
> "UPDATE TiVo has just clarified for me that the service will run on DirecTV hardware, not the TiVo HD hardware as I had assumed."
> 
> post by Dave Zatz in two other places ...


I'm not sure I like the "firmware upgrade" route. I'd much rather TiVo use a seperate box...

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm not sure I like the "firmware upgrade" route. I'd much rather TiVo use a seperate box...
> 
> ~Alan


We need a hardware expert to compare the two.

We have no idea if there is anything proprietary that would be missing from an HR2x that would benefit the TiVo software in a HR2x. We already know that they both use the same processor.


----------



## rahlquist

Sixto said:


> We need a hardware expert to compare the two.
> 
> We have no idea if there is anything proprietary that would be missing from an HR2x that would benefit the TiVo software in a HR2x. We already know that they both use the same processor.


Keep in mind even your quote from Dave doesn't explicitly say 'current' hardware.


----------



## mjbvideo

Thank you!! I switched from my beloved HD-Tivo 2 months ago and never ever had a more unreliable piece of crap as the HR21-100. I was ready to drop DTV but now that TIVO is making a comeback, I'm sticking around. I think this is a sure sign that the powers that be know they have crap with their current crop of in-house DVRs.


----------



## frederic1943

One thing I noticed in the release is these are probably going to cost a lot more per month. How much more will people be willing to pay for Tivo?

"As part of this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement.


----------



## tcusta00

AirRocker said:


> whoa.. I take one morning off and I miss 13 pages.. I'm on my lunch break and on my iPhone.. Can someone summorize for me?? :grin:


Yeah, not much here but conjecture, fan boys on both sides, and anticipation thread type stuff. Title pretty much says it all: DIRECTV and Tivo to Launch new HD DVR in 2H 2009


----------



## StephenT

I find it funny how many people don't want to go back to not having the menus overlay what they're watching. That's the one thing I hate about the HRx's. DLB I can take or leave, but I hate that I can't go into a menu and hide live TV. I record sports a lot as I have NFLST, MLBEI, and NHLCI. Nothing is worse than going to watch a game an hour in so you can skip commercials and seeing or hearing the score as you go in the menu to select it. I use to be able to push the menu button on the TiVo remote before I turned on the TV and know I wouldn't see the game in progress. Now I have to mute my receiver and try not to look in the top right corner in case the current tuner is the game.

I don't want them to take this feature away from so many people that like it, but D* and TiVo PLEASE make it an optional setting.

Also no one ever says what specifically they like about it. It's a DVR so why do you need live TV in the corner? Also why do you want to watch your recorded show in a small window in the corner or with a menu overlay? I'd rather do whatever I'm doing in the menu and go back to my show where I left off so I can concentrate on it and not a menu. I'm just curious.

I guess I could see it maybe being useful during live sports, but as I said I don't even watch that live. I know a lot of people do though.


----------



## ebockelman

frederic1943 said:


> One thing I noticed in the release is these are probably going to cost a lot more per month. How much more will people be willing to pay for Tivo?
> 
> "As part of this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement.


That only translates to a required higher subscriber cost if the cost Tivo charges Directv per subscriber is higher than the costs Directv allocates per subscriber in their in-house development efforts.


----------



## Matt9876

photostudent said:


> Put me on the waiting list!


 +1 Lifetimer needs Mpeg4 TiVo


----------



## Lee L

StephenT said:


> Also no one ever says what specifically they like about it. It's a DVR so why do you need live TV in the corner? Also why do you want to watch your recorded show in a small window in the corner or with a menu overlay? I'd rather do whatever I'm doing in the menu and go back to my show where I left off so I can concentrate on it and not a menu. I'm just curious.
> 
> I guess I could see it maybe being useful during live sports, but as I said I don't even watch that live. I know a lot of people do though.


I agree 100% with this. I do not like the Picture In Guide. Like the less friendly History and To Do options with the HR20, it seems that the DirecTV receivers were designed like standard Sat boxes which oh, by the way can record things whereas the TiVo was designed from the start to record and watch recordings and it shows through the entire product experience.


----------



## bakerfall

Sixto said:


> We need a hardware expert to compare the two.
> 
> We have no idea if there is anything proprietary that would be missing from an HR2x that would benefit the TiVo software in a HR2x. We already know that they both use the same processor.


I would say if they are able to put Comcast's Tivo software on those ****ty Moto boxes, that there isn't anything stopping them from doing so with the HR2X boxes


----------



## Steve Robertson

Sixto said:


> Seems confirmed that it will run on DirecTV hardware.
> 
> Now just need to find out if it will run on existing DirecTV hardware (HR2x) that is installed today and be field upgradeable with a simple download.
> 
> A new option on the HR2x screen to "download and wipe for TiVo".
> 
> And an option on the TiVo to "download and wipe for non-TiVo".
> 
> Very interesting next 12 months ... Be nice to get the upgrade question answered very soon.


Just think how much easier it would be if they can use the current boxes I think if it is at all possible this will be the route they will go.


----------



## nn8l

Ok. Now that I've read each and every post, (read yes, I'm a saint) I wonder if TiVo will get the channels I receive correct as they have in the past.

I told my wife about the news and she wants her TiVo back. When I asked why, she wasn't sure. She said maybe its just the 'popping' noise TiVo makes.

If they have DLB I hope they keep the 90 min. buffer. I like the DLB, but I think I like the 90 min. buffer more.


----------



## Steve Robertson

I bet Earl had something to do with this LOL


----------



## Sirshagg

Doug Brott said:


> I can assure you that a UPS would never last through a rolling blackout  .. at least not the consumer price-friendly kind.


Just the DVR without the TV and receiver should last a fairly good amount of time, but I'm not sure how long your rolling blackouts are.


----------



## StephenT

Lee L said:


> I agree 100% with this. I do not like the Picture In Guide. Like the less friendly History and To Do options with the HR20, it seems that the DirecTV receivers were designed like standard Sat boxes which oh, by the way can record things whereas the TiVo was designed from the start to record and watch recordings and it shows through the entire product experience.


A good way to put it. Picture in Guide makes TOTAL sense for non DVRs. There I fully understand its use.


----------



## gregjones

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm not sure I like the "firmware upgrade" route. I'd much rather TiVo use a seperate box...
> 
> ~Alan


And that is the best part of the plan, in my opinion. There are no physical requirements for one that don't exist in the other. This could be a considerable savings without a downside.


----------



## Sirshagg

jeffgus said:


> I know everyone goes on and on about the DLB. I love that feature also, but the thing I also like about Tivo is the way it presents the channel schedule. I don't like the grid style because it can't display anything beyond a couple of hours. Tivo has the Tivo-ish (tabbed style) way of listing the shows hours in advance. This is great for movie channels that have long blocks of programming.
> 
> I don't know why Tivo even licensed the patent for the grid style. The Tivo style makes so much more sense to me.


Oh YEAH!!!


----------



## dave29

Sixto said:


> Seems confirmed that it will run on DirecTV hardware.
> 
> Now just need to find out if it will run on existing DirecTV hardware (HR2x) that is installed today and be field upgradeable with a simple download.
> 
> A new option on the HR2x screen to "download and wipe for TiVo".
> 
> And an option on the TiVo to "download and wipe for non-TiVo".
> 
> Very interesting next 12 months ... Be nice to get the upgrade question answered very soon.


i hope that is the case because i would much rather have the hr2x UI that i have got used to in almost the last 2 years. i see the hr2x having alot more features(that are being worked on now) to be in use by then. i used to love tivo, until we got the hr2x to where it is today. im not knocking the tivo lovers, but i would much rather have what we have right now and thefeatures that are being worked on, than tivo. i just hope that directv does not give up on the current line of receivers.


----------



## Sirshagg

Jhon69 said:


> The HRs and Rs do that too.Just highlight the channel(All the way to the left on the guide) and press info.


Similiar, but nowhere near the same.


----------



## JohnSorTivo

gregjones said:


> And that is the best part of the plan, in my opinion. There are no physical requirements for one that don't exist in the other. This could be a considerable savings without a downside.


Downside for me is if a shared plaform means I don't get my peanut remote back.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Lee L said:


> it seems that the DirecTV receivers were designed like standard Sat boxes which oh, by the way can record things whereas the TiVo was designed from the start to record and watch recordings and it shows through the entire product experience.


BINGO!!

I am very vocal about the fact that my HR20 keeps getting better, but the above has ALWAYS bothered me about it.

~Alan


----------



## dave29

JohnSorTivo said:


> Downside for me is if a shared plaform means I don't get my peanut remote back.


buy a harmony 670


----------



## Jhon69

jeffgus said:


> Yes, I know about this function. As you know, it's not quite the same. For one thing, it is terribly slow.


My R15 and R22 is not slow maybe something is slowing it down in the HRs?


----------



## bakerfall

dave29 said:


> buy a harmony 670


There would be nothing preventing DirecTV from releasing a peanut remote that works with the HR2X.


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> A new option on the HR2x screen to "download and wipe for TiVo".


Move over 02468, here comes 468486


----------



## Chip Moody

I've never had a phone line plugged into my Tivo. USB -> Ethernet adapter - connects over my home's broadband internet connection.

- Chip



turey22 said:


> i dont know if its been asked but since with a tivo you need to have a phone like conected to it, to get the software will you need to do the same? or have to get "tivo" updates??? or will tivo just make the software and let us take it over after they make it and we will handle how to realse it?


----------



## Jhon69

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm not sure I like the "firmware upgrade" route. I'd much rather TiVo use a seperate box...
> 
> ~Alan


I agree!.Don't want to pay the higher cost DVR fee.  :eek2:


----------



## Alan Gordon

gregjones said:


> And that is the best part of the plan, in my opinion. There are no physical requirements for one that don't exist in the other. This could be a considerable savings without a downside.


Sure, and when you decide to download the TiVo firmware, DirecTV can send you a "peanut" remote and a TiVo sticker to stick on your HR2x.

The HR20s have internal OTA tuners, the HR21s do not. Sure, TiVo can make the TiVo platform work with the AM21, but personally, I'd prefer a separate box.

~Alan


----------



## turey22

i guess everyone is reading this thread.


----------



## turey22

come on guys we can def get 30 pages on this baby today! post your a$$ off!


----------



## wingrider01

dmurphy said:


> I wouldn't make that assumption. I don't think any of us were privvy to the actual discussions, but remember that DirecTV management and ownership were in a different time & place.
> 
> At the time, DirecTV's majority owner also owned a company that manufactured a line of DVRs. Keep that in mind ...


Interesting point in the PR -

"Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product."

This can indicate there will be a different pricing infrastructure for the TIVO based boxes


----------



## turey22

will they bring out a different model of receiver like an "hr24" and make that the tivo software base reciever or will they make every hddvr to use the same software??? if anyone knows?


----------



## turey22

tivo great company, good features but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo? just to have DLB...is it really that great? you can only watch one thing at a time anyways..


----------



## wingrider01

turey22 said:


> will they bring out a different model of receiver like an "hr24" and make that the tivo software base reciever or will they make every hddvr to use the same software??? if anyone knows?


All speculation right now - more information will probalby trickle out over the next 8 months or so, since it is mentioned the second half of 2009 for a tenative release


----------



## Sirshagg

turey22 said:


> come on guys we can def get 30 pages on this baby today! post your a$$ off!


Dude! I'd have to post *ALOT* to do that. :lol:


----------



## dave29

turey22 said:


> tivo great company, good features but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo? just to have DLB...is it really that great? you can only watch one thing at a time anyways..


NOT ME


----------



## turey22

dave29 said:


> NOT ME


can someone second that???


----------



## turey22

Sirshagg said:


> Dude! I'd have to post *ALOT* to do that. :lol:


we are halfway there...just 15 more to go. post about your dog if you have too.


----------



## dave29

turey22 said:


> can someone second that???


i thought i just seconded you


----------



## turey22

dave29 said:


> i thought i just seconded you


yeah your right...:lol:

does USC play that horrible Notre Dame school this year??


----------



## Jon W

Great news for the DBS community. More choice is good. I will be without contract in fall 09 and will strongly consider going back to DirecTV


----------



## Alan Gordon

turey22 said:


> tivo great company, good features but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo? just to have DLB...is it really that great? you can only watch one thing at a time anyways..


Who said all of us were interested in a TiVo because of DLB?

Personally, I have only missed DLB twice since I got my HR20 over a year ago.

~Alan


----------



## turey22

Alan Gordon said:


> Who said all of us were interested in a TiVo because of DLB?
> 
> Personally, I have only missed DLB twice since I got my HR20 over a year ago.
> 
> ~Alan


I never said everyone...i said "but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo?".


----------



## RichardL

All I want is a DVR that actually records what I tell it to.

Everything else is really secondary to that. Unfortunately my HR20 hasn't mastered that yet - hopefully by the end of 2009 we'll have at least one reliable solution!


----------



## generalpatton78

This is the greatest news since the wheel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Sirshagg

turey22 said:


> I never said everyone...i said "but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo?".


I _might_.


----------



## LameLefty

turey22 said:


> can someone second that???


I will. DLB isn't a big deal to me and never has been, even in football season. I watch and record one game, and surf the rest. Superfan features on the HR2x are MORE than an adequate replacement for me.


----------



## thegurujim

turey22 said:


> tivo great company, good features but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo? just to have DLB...is it really that great? you can only watch one thing at a time anyways..


I would. Both the HR21s I have suck. Since day one they reboot without warning. In the middle of recorded shows and during the daytime when we're gone.
They fail to fast forward on the first button press...the second button press...the third button press every once in a while. When they do decide to fast forward after this happens it actually goes frame by frame for 30 seconds then decides to catch up in a minute.

Both boxes repeatedly goes to a 721 error while the other is fine.

I've never had a problem with my SD Tivos....ever. I reluctantly got the HR21 boxes because we went HD.


----------



## labatt79

turey22 said:


> tivo great company, good features but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo? just to have DLB...is it really that great? you can only watch one thing at a time anyways..


Tough call for me. I originally had TiVo and loved it especially when I was forced to go with the HR20 because my H10-250 wasn't supported anymore, or at least so they said that was the case. The DLB was a great feature. Now that I have had my HR20 for almost a year now, I've gotten used to it's features. I just hope the new TiVo unit has online scheduling and VOD from DirecTV and the obviously the TiVo covited features like DLB.


----------



## Alan Gordon

turey22 said:


> I never said everyone...i said "but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo?".


I wasn't trying to imply that you were referring to "everyone" (though it did come out that way), I was simply saying that there are MANY features TiVo has over the HR20 that are of interest to some of us.

That being said, there are HR20 features I would miss with a TiVo.

~Alan


----------



## dave29

thegurujim said:


> I would. Both the HR21s I have suck. Since day one they reboot without warning. In the middle of recorded shows and during the daytime when we're gone.
> They fail to fast forward on the first button press...the second button press...the third button press every once in a while. When they do decide to fast forward after this happens it actually goes frame by frame for 30 seconds then decides to catch up in a minute.
> 
> Both boxes repeatedly goes to a 721 error while the other is fine.
> 
> I've never had a problem with my SD Tivos....ever. I reluctantly got the HR21 boxes because we went HD.


you must have bad receivers or a poor installation then and you should post that on this forum to try to find a solution to your problems. i have 5 hr2x's and have never had a missed recording or a problem that was the receivers fault.


----------



## labatt79

RichardL said:


> All I want is a DVR that actually records what I tell it to.


I second this along with the guide being accurate and not recording the same thing twice or repeats or not at all.


----------



## ejohnson

I will be interested to see how much more it costs / month. My guess is that it will be $10-15, and not part of the +DVR packages. 

And I bet the box doesn't get the rebates & special deals that the DTV boxes do. (provided that it is a different unit & not a software download)

They would not offer it if they were going to get the same money, and then have to pay Tivo a portion

I am happy enough with my HR20 to not pay extra for Tivo services.


----------



## labatt79

More detailed guide is what I mean.


----------



## VideoVeteran

Tom Robertson said:


> The fact the TiVo was easily hackable was a huge problem.
> 
> The crippling of MRV and HMO was likely a mutual decision (or more likely a stalemate.)


So what is going to change this time around to enable MRV? What about TivoToGo? I always heard it was the studios who held out to say no on MRV and TTG.

I was formerly a DirecTiVo user, and I look forward to having some of Tivo's latest features, but I'm not sure I'd pay very much extra for them. And what about transfering my lifetime Tivo subscription to a new box?


----------



## reweiss

nn8l said:


> Ok. Now that I've read each and every post, (read yes, I'm a saint) I wonder if TiVo will get the channels I receive correct as they have in the past.
> 
> I told my wife about the news and she wants her TiVo back. When I asked why, she wasn't sure. She said maybe its just the 'popping' noise TiVo makes.
> 
> If they have DLB I hope they keep the 90 min. buffer. I like the DLB, but I think I like the 90 min. buffer more.


How about DLB with 2 60 minute buffers? (That would make me happiest)


----------



## DarinC

turey22 said:


> tivo great company, good features but who really wants to give up the hr2X for a tivo? just to have DLB...is it really that great? you can only watch one thing at a time anyways..


I'd do it more to get the reliability and smooth operation back that I had with my TiVos. But whether or not this would do that is yet to be seen.


----------



## Sixto

Have said it numerous times today. They key is the existing install base.

There have been millions ... millions (!) ... of HR2x's rolled out in the past two years. 

There's been many millions of $ spent to convert everyone.

If the new Tivo software can be downloaded to the millions of existing HR2x's then this announcement is golden and provides DirecTV with options. No downside.

They could even evaluate in two years or so whether it's worth having dual software. If not, then they could easily just upgrade everyone to the TiVo software with the click of a switch. Only issue would be if you could keep recordings (this could be a major show stopper).

If not field upgradeable then you probably have a very messy two box strategy with different inventory, upgrade costs, truck rolls ... just very messy.


----------



## groove93

dave29 said:


> you must have bad receivers or a poor installation then and you should post that on this forum to try to find a solution to your problems. i have 5 hr2x's and have never had a missed recording or a problem that was the receivers fault.


Even with a badly aligned dish my R10 SD Tivo would run circles around my HR21.

On another note: If Direct TV decided to go strictly with a Tivo Interface and abandon the current GUI, how many would leave?


----------



## evan_s

I didn't expect this to come but I hope that it will end up being a good thing for everyone.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions but it does look like it will be tivo software running on DirecTV hardware. I don't know if it will be any HR2x or just some new model that has yet to be released but I don't think that it would be bad on an HR2x. I definitely expect MVR to be at least in CE stages by the time this comes out if not released already. Who knows what else the HR2x's will have added during that time frame.

The comcast/cox tivo has been pretty bad from what I've read but you've got an a lot more complicated situation. Motorola boxes with their firmware handled by motorola. OCAP software, basically a java like environment, running on that and then tivo running inside of that. Lots of layers and I believe the Tivo software has to run completely out of memory and use the HD format that already existed because it's suppose to allow you to upgrade to TIVO on the same box with out loosing the recordings. I expect they may not have as many limitations and companies to deal with in the DTV situation since dtv controls all the hardware and firmware. The DTV boxes also have a bit more powerful hardware from what I understand.

I do expect this to be a premium dvr offering like comcast/cox planned to do. I don't know if it will be a per box or per account fee. Depending on costs it could end up being pretty popular or something only the hard core tivo fans opt for.

It will also be interesting to see comparisons of the tivo and directv software running on the same boxes to see if some of the stabilities issues are really software or if they are being caused by other hardware issues instead either in the boxes or in the infrastructure at that location.


----------



## dave29

Sixto said:


> Have said it numerous times today. They key is the existing install base.
> 
> There have been millions ... millions (!) ... of HR2x's rolled out in the past two years.
> 
> There's been many millions of $ spent to convert everyone.
> 
> If the new Tivo software can be downloaded to the millions of existing HR2x's then this announcement is golden and provides DirecTV with options. No downside.
> 
> They could even evaluate in two years or so whether it's worth having dual software. If not, then they could easily just upgrade everyone to the TiVo software with the click of a switch. Only issue would be if you could keep recordings (this could be a major show stopper).
> 
> If not field upgradeable then you probably have a very messy two box strategy with different inventory, upgrade costs, truck rolls ... just very messy.


the only way i would want tivo software in my hr2x's is if the tivo software has DLB and MRV and we didnt have it yet. thats the only way...........


----------



## dave29

groove93 said:


> Even with a badly aligned dish my R10 SD Tivo would run circles around my HR21.
> 
> On another note: If Direct TV decided to go strictly with a Tivo Interface and abandon the current GUI, how many would leave?


sadly, i would leave for dish unless the features were outstanding(MRV, DLB, PIG,etc,etc)


----------



## bozzaj

Sixto said:


> Only issue would be if you could keep recordings (this could be a major show stopper).


I suspect, if done right, this would really be a non-issue. Both the DTivo and HRxx store the stream unmodified. Decryption is done after the fact. The only issue would be converting the database and perhaps dealing with a different filesystem.

Since database conversion has been done in the past (The DTivos had to go through this when going from 3.x to 6.x), that also shouldn't be tough. Filesystem would be the final issue, but they have year to work around that one!

Wasn't there some company the DirecTV was working with (or bought out) that had some new database technology?


----------



## Sixto

We're also living in a different world today then two years ago.

DirecTV has stated that everyone will get the same box going forward. One box for SD and HD.

With one box, one hardware platform, they'd only need the TiVo software on one architecture, which is the HR2x architecture.

Also, with DirecTV on Demand, TiVo already has a strategy to access sites all over the internet. They'd just now need to interface to the mature DirecTV backend that's been in place for almost a year now.


----------



## DarinC

bozzaj said:


> Both the DTivo and HRxx store the stream unmodified.


Then why can't an HR2x playback files on an eSATA drive that were recorded on a different HR2x?


----------



## Draconis

Well I'm shocked. :eek2:

I'm still going over the discussion but I found 2 related news articles.

New TiVo-powered DirecTV DVR coming in 2009

DirecTV, TiVo to offer new HD DVR to customers

Lets hope they worked in a way around the phone line limitation for software upgrades.

I am also going to say, it has finally happened&#8230;


----------



## bonscott87

Sirshagg said:


> I'm all for bringing TiVo back but i'm just not getting what's in this for DirecTv. Their in-house DVR isn't THAT bad that they should _need_ this deal.


Things we will never know.

But my guess is 2 things:
1) Threat that Dish will just buy Tivo or heavily invest as part of the patent settlement and DirecTV wanted to prevent that. This they feel would be worth more then having 1 GUI across all receivers.

2) Tivo finally came to their senses on cost. Most likely, as someone else pointed out earlier, DirecTV said "you know what, charge what you like and we'll pass it on to the customer and take a small cut". Thus Tivo could do a $5 or $10 a month surcharge, give DirecTV a buck plus whatever needed for support and take the rest. Thus the "significantly" higher fees Rogers talked about. DirecTV basically said "ok, if you think you're all that we'll just pass on your cost to the customer and we'll see how many subs we get". So long as DirecTV's higher support costs are covered then they probably don't care.


----------



## Sirshagg

DarinC said:


> Then why can't an HR2x playback files on an eSATA drive that were recorded on a different HR2x?


I seriously doubt that's a limitation of the hardware. More likely a software decision By DirecTv.


----------



## ATARI

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party here, but I was on vacation.

So let me add (for probably the 100th time), DLB, here I come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Also, with DirecTV on Demand, TiVo already has a strategy to access sites all over the internet. They'd just now need to interface to the mature DirecTV backend that's been in place for almost a year now.


Believe it or not (as I dislike YouTube), but I have used TiVo's YouTube service on my TiVo Series 3, and it works great.

Not to mention that with TiVo's experience working with the Comcast/Cox (or is it Charter) DVR boxes, they should be able to make DirecTV's interactive features work on these new boxes as well.

~Alan


----------



## rahlquist

Sirshagg said:


> I seriously doubt that's a limitation of the hardware. More likely a software decision By DirecTv.


+1 
I find it highly likely that you are 100% right. It is very easy to modify a tag on the file (similar to an id3 tag) showing what DVR it was recorded on. That way if you hook the drive up to another DVR it simply refuses to play. It does this out of simplicity. Example (if D* worked like E* and a recoding worked for every dvr on an an account), I record a football game as part of my sunday ticket, I then drag the drive over to my brothers house, call D* tell them he sold me the dvr, have it added to my account hook up the drive, and I am now sharing content.

The way D* does it eliminates overhead and problems like that. Record it on box X it plays on Box X. In the future if D* implements MRV it may involve stamping the file as part of Account X instead of Box X. And may be date stamped too to prevent you adding a receiver to your MRV setup and fishing the file over.


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## dennisj00

Haven't read all 17 pages yet, but this is great news!!

Where do I pre-order one and I hope it comes under the CE test base. I certainly volunteer!!


----------



## bozzaj

DarinC said:


> Then why can't an HR2x playback files on an eSATA drive that were recorded on a different HR2x?


Good question. I suspect it a software limitation. I doubt that the HRxx is double-encrypting the data stream. I also doubt that the HRxx is decrypting the data stream and re-encrypting with the box keys. Both would slow down storing the data considerably.

Now, it's possible that the filesystem is encrypted using the box keys, but that's a different story. Once the filesystem is accessible to the box via the box keys, the data would be the unmodified data stream ready to be decrypted.

Regardless, I'm obviously not 100% positive about the HRxx since I don't work for DirecTV, but they've been very careful with allowing content viewing across systems and hardware. I'm sure the Direct2PC product decrypts the data once it arrives at the PC. If not, someone could just put together a packet analyzer to extract the data. Again, I seriously doubt decryption then re-encryption would be done for those sessions. The data is already encrypted coming from the satellite.

It would be interesting to compare two eSATA drives recording the same single item. Would the entire drive data be different or just some key data at the beginning to give the system access to the rest of the drive?


----------



## RunnerFL

Tom Robertson said:


> The question is...
> 
> Will the TiVo versions have:
> 
> One Touch Record
> Two Touch Series Links
> Recording Defaults
> Overlapping recordings on a single tuner
> Single Sat. Tuner and dual OTA tuner configurations
> Media Share
> DLNA support
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You forgot:


Picture In Guide
Native Passthru
Cool Screen Saver
Require no phone line
Don't pay for a PPV until you start watching
DOD
eSATA Support

And I'm sure I forgot even more...


----------



## rahlquist

dennisj00 said:


> Haven't read all 17 pages yet, but this is great news!!
> 
> Where do I pre-order one and I hope it comes under the CE test base. I certainly volunteer!!


Agreed I am contemplating buying a second DVR just to test with if this becomes available for CE.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

groove93 said:


> Even with a badly aligned dish my R10 SD Tivo would run circles around my HR21.
> 
> On another note: If Direct TV decided to go strictly with a Tivo Interface and abandon the current GUI, how many would leave?


That's an interesting question you pose.

IF they did it today, no, I wouldn't change, because DirecTV has more of the content that is important to me in High Definition, and content is KING.

In two years, it's hard to say what the situation is going to be as far as the content carried by different providers.

If someone else had the content I wanted, and they switched to a TIVO interface and I had time to down a 6 pack everytime I want to rearrange my prioritizer (or whatever Tivo calls it).... I'll chuck the thing out the window.

Patience is not a virtue I possess, and I've grown accustomed to the speed at which my HR2x's do things. I had an old, old Hughes DirecTivo, and the thing was a slug. If I had to go back to that kind of speed..... I'll go elsewhere.


----------



## digitalfreak

Not all that excited here. I used to have an HR10-250 and really liked it. However, the HR-20 isn't that bad and I'm living without DLB, Thumbs Up/Down, etc.

I might be tempted to switch if it was an even-up switch for my two HR-20s, but I doubt that's gonna happen.


----------



## RunnerFL

turey22 said:


> will it be an owned unit???


Most likely leased.

There's no point in owning one since it will only be usable on DirecTV's system.


----------



## LameLefty

bozzaj said:


> Good question. I suspect it a software limitation. I doubt that the HRxx is double-encrypting the data stream. I also doubt that the HRxx is decrypting the data stream and re-encrypting with the box keys. Both would slow down storing the data considerably.


You wouldn't have to encrypt the entire file, just use a hashing algorithm like SHA to digitally sign the file with the box key (which may be something not even meant to be a key, but some internal fixed value the CPU can read and use). If the digital signature doesn't match the key used to sign the file, it won't play.


----------



## RunnerFL

Capmeister said:


> I didn't expect this... but it also doesn't effect me really. I'll probably try the new box because I like doing that, but I'm also happy with my HR2x boxes. So while it's cool news, it's like Google's new browser. I'll try it, but I still have FireFox and like it.


Same here, for both the DVR and browser.


----------



## shaun-ohio

cant wait, good bye hr20 !!!


----------



## bozzaj

LameLefty said:


> You wouldn't have to encrypt the entire file, just use a hashing algorithm like SHA to digitally sign the file with the box key (which may be something not even meant to be a key, but some internal fixed value the CPU can read and use). If the digital signature doesn't match the key used to sign the file, it won't play.


True, but SHA would only sign the file. The actual data stream is still the same data. They wouldn't be able to hash the entire file since you can't "reverse-hash" to get the data back.


----------



## marksman

sigma1914 said:


> I can't wait to see the price. lmao


$1999.99 with only a 3 year $39.99 a month commitment per receiver. If you are a good customer expect up to 10% off!


----------



## Sixto

Another update from Dave Zatz: "I'm getting conflicting info out of TiVo&#8230; they may not have decided on a hardware platform yet."

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/


----------



## turey22

I Wish We Had More Info!!!


----------



## Alan Gordon

One Touch Record *(Don't Care!)*
Two Touch Series Links *(Don't Care!)*
Recording Defaults *(I'll miss it, but not that important)*
Overlapping recordings on a single tuner *(I WOULD MISS THIS!)*
Single Sat. Tuner and dual OTA tuner configurations *(HUH?)*
Media Share *(TiVo has their own version on the stand-alones which works better than the DirecTV version... that being said, I could care less about Media Share)*
DLNA support *(Don't Care!)*
Picture In Guide *(You say that like it's a bad thing?)*
Native Passthru *(OK)*
Cool Screen Saver *(OK)*
Require no phone line *(Stand-Alone TiVos do not have this issue, hopefully the new DirecTV ones won't require this... and I see NO reason why DirecTV would feel the need to force this if the HR20s don't)*
Don't pay for a PPV until you start watching *(Nice, but I haven't ordered a PPV since the 90s)*
DOD *(Don't Care!)*
eSATA Support *(Stand-Alone TiVos have this, so hopefully the DirecTV version will as well)*

~Alan


----------



## bozzaj

Alan Gordon said:


> eSATA Support *(Stand-Alone TiVos have this, so hopefully the DirecTV version will as well)*


How does Tivo handle eSATA support? Is it in addition to the internal drive? Can it be moved from Tivo to Tivo? Just curious.


----------



## harsh

turey22 said:


> guys chill out on the posting...i can only refresh so many times and read so much...you guys lost me back on page 3.


Man up, you pansy.


----------



## RunnerFL

Alan Gordon said:


> Picture In Guide *(You say that like it's a bad thing?)*


It would be a bad thing, I LOVE the Picture In Guide.

It's really stupid to have to stop watching TV to setup a series link, check to do list, etc...


----------



## Doug Brott

LameLefty said:


> You wouldn't have to encrypt the entire file, just use a hashing algorithm like SHA to digitally sign the file with the box key (which may be something not even meant to be a key, but some internal fixed value the CPU can read and use). If the digital signature doesn't match the key used to sign the file, it won't play.





bozzaj said:


> True, but SHA would only sign the file. The actual data stream is still the same data. They wouldn't be able to hash the entire file since you can't "reverse-hash" to get the data back.


LameLefty is on the right track .. This is because recordings are designed to be limited to the original box that recorded it.


----------



## Alan Gordon

bozzaj said:


> How does Tivo handle eSATA support? Is it in addition to the internal drive? Can it be moved from Tivo to Tivo? Just curious.


Last I heard, it is *IN ADDITION *to the internal drive.

HOWEVER, I prefer it the way DirecTV handles it as the TiVo version is handicapped. For instance, if I had recorded "Prison Break" Monday night on my TiVo Series 3 with an eSATA drive, part of the program would have been recorded on the eSATA drive, and part on the internal drive. Power failure or the unhooking of the eSATA drive would result in the loss of said show.

In TiVo's defense, this was said to be at the request of the Cablecos (if I remember correctly), so since DirecTV does not do this with their DVRs, hopefully TiVo could do their eSATA setup like DirecTV does.

~Alan


----------



## smiddy

cdavis0720 said:


> This isn't supposed to be happening until late 2009 at best????? I predict this will be either number 1 or number 2 in longest threads ever.
> 
> Carl


Whoa, there is a prediction I'm betting will not come to pass. But, I'm a pessimist today.


----------



## burnside

Alan Gordon said:


> One Touch Record *(Don't Care!)*
> Two Touch Series Links *(Don't Care!)*
> Recording Defaults *(I'll miss it, but not that important)*
> Overlapping recordings on a single tuner *(I WOULD MISS THIS!)*
> Single Sat. Tuner and dual OTA tuner configurations *HUH?*
> Media Share *(TiVo has their own version on the stand-alones which works better than the DirecTV version... that being said, I could care less about Media Share)*
> DLNA support (Don't Care!)
> Picture In Guide *(You say that like it's a bad thing?)*
> Native Passthru *(OK)*
> Cool Screen Saver *(OK)*
> Require no phone line *(Stand-Alone TiVos do not have this issue, hopefully the new DirecTV ones won't require this... and I see NO reason why DirecTV would feel the need to force this if the HR20s don't)*
> Don't pay for a PPV until you start watching *(Nice, but I haven't ordered a PPV since the 90s)*
> DOD *(Don't Care!)*
> eSATA Support *(Stand-Alone TiVos have this, so hopefully the DirecTV version will as well)*
> 
> ~Alan


+1

DLB +1000000000000
and maybe MRV +100000000000


----------



## groove93

Now that I have a fully integrated system with multiple PCs attached along side my DVR, I can't see where Direct TV would Lock down certain features that I now use with the current HR2X platform. If they are, then I bet it would have something to do with "Patents" and "Hollywood", not Direct TV. (24 hour PPV and file sharing of content provided by D* come to mind)

My R10 SD box was locked down to the point where hardware modifications were needed as opposed to software enhancements, but it was not a big deal at the time for I had no home theater set up and networked PCs.


----------



## Alan Gordon

RunnerFL said:


> It would be a bad thing, I LOVE the Picture In Guide.
> 
> It's really stupid to have to stop watching TV to setup a series link, check to do list, etc...


I like the PIG as well, BUT I HATE the PIL.

That being said, I RARELY watch live TV, so stopping the program to perform a task does not matter to me.

~Alan


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> Man up, you pansy.


Man up?! Is that the same as Cowboy Up? Or how about Leaning Forward?


----------



## bozzaj

Doug Brott said:


> LameLefty is on the right track .. This is because recordings are designed to be limited to the original box that recorded it.


Correct - The point I was making was that the limitation (of moving an eSATA drive) is software-based. Digitally signing files is part of the software and that limit could be removed if needed.


----------



## groove93

RunnerFL said:


> It would be a bad thing, I LOVE the Picture In Guide.
> 
> It's really stupid to have to stop watching TV to setup a series link, check to do list, etc...


If my memory serves me, with Tivo, you still have the option to rewind after you're finished with what you were doing in the menu. So it's not like you missed something. The only time the stream stops is when you're either restarting your box, or you're running Diagnostics on the dish, phoneline, etc.

Just one of those things I've never complained about or even noticed.


----------



## LameLefty

Doug Brott said:


> LameLefty is on the right track .. This is because recordings are designed to be limited to the original box that recorded it.


Remember, too that public-key cryptography and digital signing via hashing functions are pretty quick. It's the brute-force cracking that takes so many cycles.


----------



## mightythor88

yeehaw! after all the dudes on here have been saying tivo will never make another directv dvr...awesome. 2nd half of 09...I hope its in time for 2009 Sunday Ticket!

I can finally dump Rupert Murdoch's POS DVR testing system that I have been forced to use this last year and get DLB back. I knew when Directv was sold this was a possibility, but I really wasnt holding my breathe. this is awesome. thanks directv!

I have thinking more and more about abandoning dtv...now they finally did something to keep me around.


----------



## daddywags

DLB amen and amen .Thank you dtv for listening to us dlb fanatics.


----------



## harsh

wingrider01 said:


> This can indicate there will be a different pricing infrastructure for the TIVO based boxes


The Reuters story linked to earlier confirms that the arrangement will be substantially more beneficial to TiVo than the previous agreements.


----------



## Alan Gordon

groove93 said:


> *If my memory serves me, with Tivo, you still have the option to rewind after you're finished with what you were doing in the menu*. So it's not like you missed something. The only time the stream stops is when you're either restarting your box, or you're running Diagnostics on the dish, phoneline, etc.
> 
> Just one of those things I've never complained about or even noticed.


You also have the option of pausing, and in the case of recorded programs, stopping!

~Alan


----------



## bobcamp1

Tom Robertson said:


> The difference is the HR2x has 30s Slip out of the box and you only need to enter the backdoor once to make it 30s Skip.
> 
> TiVo's need a backdoor after every reboot or a more significant hack to make it permanent. (Not just a button sequence.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Ummm... that's not true anymore with the standalone S2s or S3s. You just enter the backdoor code once and it remembers even if it's rebooted.

And if this is the reason someone does not get a DirecTivo, well, what else can I say?


----------



## bozzaj

LameLefty said:


> Remember, too that public-key cryptography and digital signing via hashing functions are pretty quick. It's the brute-force cracking that takes so many cycles.


True - but all of this is likely in the software. Even if it were hardware-based, keeping the recordings when switching to the Tivo software should still be a non-issue. All the Tivo software would need to do is have the functions available to pass the signature test. The final data stream would still be decrypted the same way since it comes from the same satellite.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> The Reuters story linked to earlier confirms that the arrangement will be substantially more beneficial to TiVo than the previous agreements.


Hey, Tom might have scooped Reuters on this one  In any event, it was close and independently corroborated via SEC filings today.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> Native Passthru *(OK)*


BTW, I just checked and my TiVo Series 3 has the Native feature. I thought it did, but wasn't sure since it's hooked up to a SDTV.

~Alan


----------



## ATARI

Whew!

Finally got caught up on all 444 posts.

Everybody, please stop posting now.


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> Then why can't an HR2x playback files on an eSATA drive that were recorded on a different HR2x?


There are several possibilities:

1. The HR2x is designed to recognize only its own drive.
2. They're using an encrypting filesystem
3. The data stream is indeed being hashed as it is recorded.


----------



## groove93

I would also like to add that the Peanut Remote is a great design. Time Shifting at your finger tips. The layout is perfect for the interface.

I thought it was just another case of "getting used to another remote", but this is simply not the case with the Peanut. The buttons are intentionally placed in areas where the "Killer App" functionality of the Tivo Interface shines through. It's simple, and it works.

Now this is coming from a Tivo convert who still has the habit of pressing on the center buttons and wonders why the menu pops up instead of the the program time shifting.

For people whose first experience is with the Direct TV GUI, I do not have an explanation or will ever be part of that experience.


----------



## Doug Brott

bozzaj said:


> True - but all of this is likely in the software. Even if it were hardware-based, keeping the recordings when switching to the Tivo software should still be a non-issue. All the Tivo software would need to do is have the functions available to pass the signature test. The final data stream would still be decrypted the same way since it comes from the same satellite.


Even if this were technically possible (and it might be) .. you shouldn't expect this to happen. I'm pretty sure that TiVo's and DIRECTV use different file systems for video storage .. at a minimum there would need to be a conversion .. not enough bang for the buck when said recordings could remain by simply keeping it as an HR2x instead of converting to a TiVo ..


----------



## harsh

dennisj00 said:


> Where do I pre-order one and I hope it comes under the CE test base. I certainly volunteer!!


As TiVo doesn't have a public alpha testing program, don't hold your breath. Remember this project is 100% TiVo.


----------



## undertaker67

will there be a charge every month for the tivo service


----------



## harsh

undertaker67 said:


> will there be a charge every month for the tivo service


Absolutely! The question that remains is whether it will be by account or by unit.


----------



## ATARI

harsh said:


> Absolutely! The question that remains is whether it will be by account or by unit.


And, of course, how much $$.


----------



## RunnerFL

groove93 said:


> If my memory serves me, with Tivo, you still have the option to rewind after you're finished with what you were doing in the menu. So it's not like you missed something. The only time the stream stops is when you're either restarting your box, or you're running Diagnostics on the dish, phoneline, etc.
> 
> Just one of those things I've never complained about or even noticed.


I'm not worried about missing something... I just don't like having to stop watching TV to perform tasks, which you have to do with TiVo, it makes no sense to do so. It's called making the most of your time.


----------



## harsh

ATARI said:


> And, of course, how much $$.


The Reuters article used the superlative "substantially" at least twice in reference to the amount of money that TiVo would be getting in comparison to the old arrangement. I'd be looking for monthly rates in the neighborhood of $14.95.

TiVo needs a much bigger contribution from DIRECTV as DIRECTV still represents more than 50% of the current TiVo receiver population.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

An interesting development.

Like marrying someone a second time again....it will be facinating to see if both sides have moved forward from "lessons learned" since their previous relationship.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> The Reuters article used the superlative "substantially" at least twice in reference to the amount of money that TiVo would be getting in comparison to the old arrangement. I'd be looking for monthly rates in the neighborhood of $14.95.
> 
> TiVo needs a much bigger contribution from DIRECTV as DIRECTV still represents more than 50% of the current TiVo receiver population.


"Substantially" is very relative.

If they're paying a $1 now, then $2 would be 100% more. Maybe 100% is substantial. It's all relative.


----------



## jdmac29

I purchased my hr20-700 right after it came out at Best buy in August 06 and never had a TIVO until last year I found a sd unit from CC and got it for my old tv. 
DLB was kinda nice but the hr20-700 was just faster and awhole lot better in June of 07. I sold the tivo unit for a hr21-700 for my other hdtv but I would like to have one of each for just the enjoyment of both software platforms. Hopefully with MRV coming they will be compatible by then.


----------



## mikela

The thing that will really seperate the tivo from directv's dvr will be the HMO. If D let's tivo use MRV, TivoToGo, Amazon unboxed, Utube, ect, That will probably fulfill most peoples expectations. I hope they do.


----------



## Lee L

RunnerFL said:


> I'm not worried about missing something... I just don't like having to stop watching TV to perform tasks, which you have to do with TiVo, it makes no sense to do so. It's called making the most of your time.


Here is teh way I make the most of my time. I never watch anything live, except sporting events**. That way I never have to watch commercials and I can watch a hour long show in under 45 minutes.

Is your way of making the most of your time better or more valid than mine? Why not allow us the simple choice of PIG Yes/No and we could all be happy. Instead, I have to be worried about turing my TV or even ending another show I was watching on at 8:55 and seeing who got voted out on Survior or who the killer is on Law and Order.

**and even then I will sometimes not get home in time to catch the beginning and pick it up maybe 30 minutes late.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

*DLB*


----------



## drew64

I did not read all the threads to this announcment but do you think they will bring back the live buffer. That was the best and I was sorry I had to give up my DTV TIVO when I got HD and I could not flop back and forth between shows and rewind if i missed something.


----------



## Doug Brott

drew64 said:


> I did not read all the threads to this announcment but do you think they will bring back the live buffer. That was the best and I was sorry I had to give up my DTV TIVO when I got HD and I could not flop back and forth between shows and rewind if i missed something.


Actually, there is a Live buffer on the HR2x system .. You are really referring to the oft-mentioned Dual Live Buffers (a.k.a. two of them).

Check out this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=118382


----------



## goillini

I can't wait to dump my HR21. I have had nothing but trouble with it! Bring on Tivo!


----------



## ziggy29

I wonder if future releases of HR-2x software may have additional code to enable TiVo services which are available to subscribers who pay the extra TiVo fee? 

All speculation, of course, but based on what I've read and the observations being made, this wouldn't seem to be out of the question if it's both (a) a premium service and (b) something that won't require a hardware upgrade. 

Obviously, if either of these two assumptions are wrong, then my speculation almost surely is, too.


----------



## rudeney

DarinC said:


> Then why can't an HR2x playback files on an eSATA drive that were recorded on a different HR2x?


Because D* doesn't want to allow it right now. There is no technological reason it can't work. There are many financial reasons not to allow it.

If you could move your eSATA drive among receivers, it might make it possible to move it among accounts and allow people to watch programs from services they did not subscribe to. For example, I could record Dexter onto an eSATA drive, then send it to you and you get to watch even though you don't subscribe to Showtime.

I am guessing this could be part of the delay for MRV, too. For example, I could set you up on my VPN so it would look like our HR2x's are on he same LAN and then you'd get to watch my content and vice-versa. Of course there are simple solutions to prevent this type of unauthorized sharing, but apparently putting them in place to give us these features isn't as important to the bottom line as, say, 1080p/24.


----------



## rudeney

LameLefty said:


> You wouldn't have to encrypt the entire file, just use a hashing algorithm like SHA to digitally sign the file with the box key (which may be something not even meant to be a key, but some internal fixed value the CPU can read and use). If the digital signature doesn't match the key used to sign the file, it won't play.


My understanding is that all thsi is handled via the access card.


----------



## n3ntj

Wow.. very interesting. I wonder if D* will allow HR-2x users to trade in their current IRDs for the new HD Tivo DVR's. Assuming the software and UI is worthwhile and offers DLB, I'll be first in line.


----------



## rudeney

harsh said:


> The Reuters story linked to earlier confirms that the arrangement will be substantially more beneficial to TiVo than the previous agreements.


That does not surprise me. With the demise of ATSC OTA broadcasts, D*, E* and most cable companies offering their own DVR's, TiVo has to be hurting. Unless a person is a die-hard TiVo fan, why go to the trouble of buying another STB and paying another service fee when you can get it in one-stop shopping from your satellite or cable provider.


----------



## glrush

I just made the leap to MPEG-4 and the new HD-DVR's. I do miss the suggestions and wishlists on my old HD10-250 as well as the DLB but that is about it. I still have the old unit for all the great stuff I have recorded and use of the OTA tuners and it was a great unit although a little flakey sometimes. Overall, I have been pretty happy so far and if Tivo comes out with a compelling reason to switch, I will. However, that compelling reason will not simply be that it says Tivo on the front and comes with a peanut remote. IMO, of course.


----------



## rahlquist

marksman said:


> $1999.99 with only a 3 year $39.99 a month commitment per receiver. If you are a good customer expect up to 10% off!


Ya know if people keep acting this excited pricing may very well be in that range...

 Haven't any of you ever haggled for something, they are getting you what you asked for, now you have to act like you just dont care!


----------



## Sixto

glrush said:


> I just made the leap to MPEG-4 and the new HD-DVR's. I do miss the suggestions and wishlists on my old HD10-250 as well as the DLB but that is about it. I still have the old unit for all the great stuff I have recorded and use of the OTA tuners and it was a great unit although a little flakey sometimes. Overall, I have been pretty happy so far and if Tivo comes out with a compelling reason to switch, I will. However, that compelling reason will not simply be that it says Tivo on the front and comes with a peanut remote. IMO, of course.


What's a DBSTalk *Gold* Member?


----------



## LameLefty

rudeney said:


> My understanding is that all thsi is handled via the access card.


I'm sure it is. That smart card has stuff going on inside to allow decryption of the stream in realtime. Without getting into hacking discussions (which are not allowed and which I'm not qualified to talk much about anyway) It would be no trouble to add digital signature features to tie recordings to a specific card/box (assuming that's not how its done already anyway).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I just have this strange, sneaking suspicion Earl will have the first of these...and will maybe be on the development team...it also makes alot of sense this would be the case based on his background to date.


----------



## Herdfan

Doug Brott said:


> not enough bang for the buck when said recordings could remain by simply keeping it as an HR2x instead of converting to a TiVo ..


Dual boot.:lol:


----------



## 66stang351

rudeney said:


> My understanding is that all thsi is handled via the access card.


Nope, recordings are dependant on receiver ID not access card. I had a DIRECTV engineer come out and swap a receiver and he swapped the access card from the old one to the new one. Recordings on the eSATA were not viewable using the same access card on a different receiver.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Sixto said:


> What's a DBSTalk *Gold* Member?


Yeah what is a Gold Member?


----------



## dtrell

elwaylite said:


> Whoopee. Wheres my new hd


+1


----------



## Sixto

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Yeah what is a Gold Member?


Can't tell whether he did something funky with his signature or there's some new Gold thingy.

sorry to go off topic but just noticed it ...


----------



## anubys

wow...almost 500 posts in one day...this is great news...I would be jumping for Joy even a year ago...but now I like the HR2x line enough that I'm -- and I can't believe I'm saying this -- not sure I will switch unless the new model blows me away...


----------



## glrush

Sixto said:


> What's a DBSTalk *Gold* Member?


Er, it's been so long I forgot 

Anyway, I have had DirecTV since September 1994; my account # is 5 digits. Maybe that is worth something !


----------



## Sixto

glrush said:


> Er, it's been so long I forgot
> 
> Anyway, I have had DirecTV since September 1994; my account # is 5 digits. Maybe that is worth something !


Cool.

Yep, just found this ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=33845&postcount=3

from 2002 ...


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Gold members are people who donated before the AVS merger.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Gold Membership was open to DBSTalkers before DBSTalk was part of the AVSForum family. It's no longer available to newer members.


----------



## rahlquist

Sixto said:


> Cool.
> 
> Yep, just found this ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=33845&postcount=3
> 
> from 2002 ...


Sheesh just link to something a non paying member cant see why dont you. 

Speaking of where is that link to pay?


----------



## Sixto

Stuart Sweet said:


> Gold Membership was open to DBSTalkers before DBSTalk was part of the AVSForum family. It's no longer available to newer members.


Cool. Very cool.

Thanks and sorry to go off topic ...


----------



## ITrot

So, when's the first Tivo cutting edge software being deployed?


----------



## Doug Brott

Herdfan said:


> Dual boot.:lol:


Hmmm .. 2 eSATAs .. 2 OSs? .. Interesting thought, but Bzzzzt :grin: .. I'd be really surprised if TiVo weren't under the same OS location restrictions as the HR2x team .. That would make dual boot a virtual impossibility ..


----------



## Tom Robertson

DarinC said:


> Heh, well I don't even know what a "rolling" blackout is, so I guess it doesn't apply to my area.  But I do have a HUGE UPS (takes a 25 amp service). If I turn everything else off that is on it (TV, receiver, etc.) it will keep the DVRs, router, cable modem, and VoIP gateway running most of the day. In the 15 years I've been in this house, we've only had one outage that lasted more than 1 day (major storm that brought down lots of trees). I'm close to a sub-station... it's _extremely _rare to have an outage that lasts more than an hour.


Rolling Blackouts are where the state power authority tells various zones of the state to shutdown power, often for an hour or two, during peak power usage. (very hot summer days.) I have 10 DVRs in 5 rooms. I'm not going to provide 10 UPSs that can keep all of them going for a day.  (I do have all of them on UPSs that will keep them going anywhere from 30 to 80 minutes.

Now I like in a land of ice, snow, and car accidents. Telephone poles and cars often leave neighborhoods without power for 3-4 hours. 


VideoVeteran said:


> So what is going to change this time around to enable MRV? What about TivoToGo? I always heard it was the studios who held out to say no on MRV and TTG.
> 
> I was formerly a DirecTiVo user, and I look forward to having some of Tivo's latest features, but I'm not sure I'd pay very much extra for them. And what about transfering my lifetime Tivo subscription to a new box?


The change this time around it TiVo is getting more money per unit. We don't know what new features this might enable.


JACKIEGAGA said:


> Yeah what is a Gold Member?


A Gold Member is someone who paid money to the site for a lifetime Club membership when those were still available. At this point we have options for 1 or 2 year memberships.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

rahlquist said:


> Sheesh just link to something a non paying member cant see why dont you.
> 
> Speaking of where is that link to pay?


http://www.dbstalk.com/payments.php


----------



## Doug Brott

ITrot said:


> So, when's the first Tivo cutting edge software being deployed?


I'll let you know if I hear anything ..


----------



## Tom Robertson

ITrot said:


> So, when's the first Tivo cutting edge software being deployed?


After the 2009 Packer Season.


----------



## Sixto

glrush said:


> Er, it's been so long I forgot
> 
> Anyway, I have had DirecTV since September 1994; my account # is 5 digits. Maybe that is worth something !


Big day! 1 more post and you've doubled your post count in 1 day ... over a 6 year period!


----------



## rahlquist

Sixto said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/payments.php


Thanks Sixto, figured after as many posts as I made this month I should contribute something other than fodder to the forum.

Now back on topic.

Oooooh a rack mount HR PRO with Tivo software, now that sounds dreamy.


----------



## JerseyBoy

Well totally ruin my day. The HR10-250(TiVo) was the worst product I have ever used in my life. Usually I get use to the differances in a new product after a while but for 2 years I cursed the TiVo everyday I used it. The day I need a new DVR and the only thing available from Directv is TiVo will be the day I go to Dish. Maybe with some luck by then Verizon will have FIOS in my area.


----------



## Tom Robertson

JerseyBoy said:


> Well totally ruin my day. The HR10-250(TiVo) was the worst product I have ever used in my life. Usually I get use to the differances in a new product after a while but for 2 years I cursed the TiVo everyday I used it. The day I need a new DVR and the only thing available from Directv is TiVo will be the day I go to Dish. Maybe with some luck by then Verizon will have FIOS in my area.


DIRECTV will continue to support the current DVR Plus lines as the primary products and continue to grow those lines. The DIRECTV TiVo units will not replace the Plus line anytime soon. (Official words.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> What's a DBSTalk *Gold* Member?





JACKIEGAGA said:


> Yeah what is a Gold Member?


IIRC, these are folks from the combination of two sites who had a life membership with that website and they were made *Gold Members* here.


----------



## CODE10

Very good news.


----------



## Sirshagg

ATARI said:


> Whew!
> 
> Finally got caught up on all 444 posts.
> 
> Everybody, please stop posting now.


Ok.

Darn, I did it again


----------



## Sirshagg

harsh said:


> Absolutely! The question that remains is whether it will be by account or by unit.


...and how much.


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> What's a DBSTalk *Gold* Member?


Yeah, what's that?


----------



## Sirshagg

rahlquist said:


> Sheesh just link to something a non paying member cant see why dont you.
> 
> Speaking of where is that link to pay?


http://www.dbstalk.com/payments.php


----------



## dhines

there was a time when this would have had me jumping for joy. that is not the case now. i am very very content with my HR2x HD DVR's. even if D* offers these for free, i doubt i will take them.


----------



## wesmills

WOW!

It looks like I will finally be upgrading to HD over satellite in 2H 2009.

My wife, kid and myself have all used versions of the HR boxes at other people's houses and we weren't impressed. We've stuck by our DirecTiVos and R10s which have served us well (my original one is now almost five years old, I think) and this news is awesome. We love the interface, WISHLISTS, suggestions (yes, we all three use TiVo suggestions), DLB (even the 9 year old knows what a DLB is and uses it extensively) and other features that only TiVo has had for a long time. Even if they don't bring all of the new features--I don't need YouTube on a TV--I will gladly pay extra for a box that lets me do exactly what I have now, but with HD.

Thanks DirecTV and TiVo!


----------



## archer75

If Direct sells new HD Tivo's next year I will come back. Without a doubt. I absolutely loved my Direct Tivo I had. I switched to Dish and while their DVR is good I still miss my Tivo.


----------



## Hornnumb2

kevin1844 said:


> I hate to be 'that guy' but I don't know that I want to go back now. I really like my HR20. I switched from SD Tivo kicking and screaming. Then DirecTV made some changes. Now I can't stand watching TV in my bedroom where my DirecTivo is. The HR20 has so many intuitive features that Tivo doesn't. Why should I have to stop watching a recorded show in order to see whats on live TV? Why should I have to stop watching liveTV to see whats recorded?
> 
> I hate the live window, when I turn my setup on and its in the middle of a recording and I see something in the show that runs the episode...


----------



## vurbano

bonscott87 said:


> I'm surprised but good news all around.
> 
> However I will not pay extra to have Tivo loaded on my DVRs.


I sure will if the boys at dealdatabase and etc figure it all out. I find archiving with an HR20 and external esata drives a romper room solution with absolutely no way to organize your files accross the drives. I never sold my old HR10-250 cant bear to part with it.


----------



## RunnerFL

Lee L said:


> Here is teh way I make the most of my time. I never watch anything live, except sporting events**. That way I never have to watch commercials and I can watch a hour long show in under 45 minutes.
> 
> Is your way of making the most of your time better or more valid than mine? Why not allow us the simple choice of PIG Yes/No and we could all be happy. Instead, I have to be worried about turing my TV or even ending another show I was watching on at 8:55 and seeing who got voted out on Survior or who the killer is on Law and Order.
> 
> **and even then I will sometimes not get home in time to catch the beginning and pick it up maybe 30 minutes late.


Ahhh, but you assume to know how I watch TV.

The only thing I watch live is NASCAR and NFL, everything else is a recording. There are a number of ways to get around seeing something you don't want to see.

My point, which no one seemed to get, is that I shouldn't have to stop watching a recording to setup a Series Link/Season Pass that I want. With Picture in Guide, Picture in List, whatever you want to call it, I don't have to!


----------



## spanishannouncetable

To all the naysayers on this board, I would like to say -









To all those who said that TiVo was going under -









To all those who thought that Dish Network should buyout the "failing" TiVo to avoid paying for their patent infringements -









All Hail TiVo !!!!!


----------



## Richierich

At least I will have DLB without having to switch over to my 2 HR10-250s with over 3 Gig of space on them to record my OTA HD!!!


----------



## jdspencer

I wonder if this new agreement will include any updates to HR10-250s. Yes, I know it can't decode MPEG4, but I'm sure there are a few things that could be upgraded.


----------



## Hemi

Happy Happy Joy Joy


----------



## Jeremy W

jdspencer said:


> I wonder if this new agreement will include any updates to HR10-250s.


DirecTV has always had an agreement with Tivo in place to provide updates to all of their receivers. I can't see why they would feel the need to do anything now, nothing with the HR10-250 has changed.


----------



## Sirshagg

archer75 said:



> If Direct sells new HD Tivo's next year I will come back. Without a doubt. I absolutely loved my Direct Tivo I had. I switched to Dish and while their DVR is good I still miss my Tivo.


but, but, but... the dish DVR is _better_ than TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

spanishannouncetable said:


> To all those who said that TiVo was going under


I'd say the Jury is still out on this one .. Certainly they've still got a pulse, but they continue to lose money .. The last two quarters had some profitability to them (first time ever for 2Q in a row I believe) .. Next Quarter TiVo is expecting a $7-9 Million loss .. They're a 10 year old company .. They've definitely got nine lives, though ..


----------



## Grentz

Doug Brott said:


> I'd say the Jury is still out on this one .. Certainly they've still got a pulse, but they continue to lose money .. The last two quarters had some profitability to them (first time ever for 2Q in a row I believe) .. Next Quarter TiVo is expecting a $7-9 Million loss .. They're a 10 year old company .. They've definitely got nine lives, though ..


It is amazing, with what a household name "Tivo" has become for every DVR system out there (kinda like Kleenex) and yet they still cannot make a profit, and have only made a profit a few very limited times in the past.

Amazes me. Something's just wrong there.


----------



## inkahauts

I can't wait... Here's my predictions of the chaos that will insue...

The good...

This will keep directv improving their boxes bringing them DLB, MRV and a multitude of other features...

Die hard Tivo people will finally dump cable when they realize they can get tivo on sat...

We will FINNALY be able to close all the DLB threads!!!

The Hilarious...
People will begin complaining when they realize that Tivo pricing will be almost identical to that of stand alone units... makeing them very expensive for nothing more than a different gui...

People will be Really mad when Tivo misses its launch date and doesn't start hitting shelves until sometime in late 2010...

People will wonder why there are still some features that are missing on the new box that the HR2's have... Things they consider "core DVR functions" missing from the new Tivos...

People will be furious because the unit will launch with as many bugs as the HR2 series had for the first 6 months of its life...

The Bad...

People will blame all the problems with the new Tivo units on Directv, yet in reality it will be all Tivo's fault, because they are the ones doing the development, and lets face it, when was the last time tivo came out with anything, first and on time... Oh wait... Never...


----------



## VLaslow

I've put a lot of time and money into my HRxx units. I liked Tivo a lot! But, I would think that DirecTV and TIVO will bring out a product whose price will keep me from considering it unless one of my current units die. And even then, it might not be worth it to get the TIVO.

I can only wait and see. However, I won't hold my breath.

And, Inkahauts has hit it on the head!!!


----------



## inkahauts

If they really want to do some amazing things... These new units need to have a minum 1 TB Hard drive space, plus be able to add on to that externally, and they need to have more than 2 tuners... maybe 2 Sat for just recording, 2 OTA (rec or watch) , and 2 sat for just live... With SWM capabilities, this shouldn't be all that hard, and if they use 2 drives inside the unit, this should actually be very easily accomplished... a 1TB for customer recording, and then a 300 gig for 2 hour DLB with movies now and showcases... 

Those capabilites would actually make me look at the things... But barring some incredibly intelligent design like that and a complete redisgn of the GUI so that it efficient, I won't be getting one...


----------



## RobertE

I can appreciate that some are giddy like a school kid that Tivo is coming back, but please lets keep things in check. 

This software and/or hardware, won't see the light of day for 9-15 months. Keep in mind how often does a company that deals with software/hardware on this level actually keep those targets? How about the Tivo Series 3?

For those that think that the little Tivo guy is going to come along and sprinkle magic Tivo dust on a DVR and it's going to have an epiphany and work beyond perfect, well... How well did those series 1s work, or series 2, the DTivos or even the S3 upon release? Oh, how the fanatics have such a short and selective memory.

Hate on the HR2x all you want, but one thing that it did do and it did well (weather you like it or not) was to unify the GUI across the DirecTv platform.

I've encountered countless people that have gotten upgrades from a Tivo to a R or HR2x and they have greatly enjoyed the fact that the remote, guide and menus are the same. No longer do they have to remember what button does what in each individual room. More importantly they don't have to keep reminding grandma that when in the living room you do X by doing Y, but in her room she needs to do X by doing Z.

I sincerely hope that whatever the gui they go with for this will closely match the current gui or the rumored '09 gui. A single unified gui across the current STBs is a must have from a usability and support standpoint.


----------



## Tom Robertson

RobertE said:


> ...
> Hate on the HR2x all you want, but one thing that it did do and it did well (weather you like it or not) was to unify the GUI across the DirecTv platform.
> 
> I've encountered countless people that have gotten upgrades from a Tivo to a R or HR2x and they have greatly enjoyed the fact that the remote, guide and menus are the same. No longer do they have to remember what button does what in each individual room. More importantly they don't have to keep reminding grandma that when in the living room you do X by doing Y, but in her room she needs to do X by doing Z....


Robert, isn't that what universal remotes are for? !rolling

(Sorry, just had to do it.)

Actually, very well written thoughts. Thanks.


----------



## rawilson

What a great day this has turned out to be!


----------



## RobertE

Tom Robertson said:


> Robert, isn't that what universal remotes are for? !rolling
> 
> (Sorry, just had to do it.)
> 
> Actually, very well written thoughts. Thanks.


A universal remote (unless it has macros) still doesn't get grandma to some places with the same key sequence. Try getting to same screen or area on a RCA DRD430, a Samsung SIR360 and a DTivo. All different. Different is bad, same is good.


----------



## marksman

Alan Gordon said:


> One Touch Record *(Don't Care!)*
> Two Touch Series Links *(Don't Care!)*





I find both these more useful than DLB, personally.


----------



## 2dogz

Grentz said:


> It is amazing, with what a household name "Tivo" has become for every DVR system out there (kinda like Kleenex) and yet they still cannot make a profit, and have only made a profit a few very limited times in the past.
> 
> Amazes me. Something's just wrong there.


Not really surprising. A lot of these tech companies put all the revenue back into the company. Never declare a profit, pay no taxes. Increases in the price of the stock keeps investors happy. Sun Microsystems is an example.

I hear 'tivo' used mostly as a verb, to tivo a show. More like 'xerox' as in xerox a memo for the boss. Vocabulary creep. Probably already in some dictionaries.


----------



## Sirshagg

Grentz said:


> It is amazing, with what a household name "Tivo" has become for every DVR system out there (kinda like Kleenex) and yet they still cannot make a profit, and have only made a profit a few very limited times in the past.
> 
> Amazes me. Something's just wrong there.


It's called significantly larger companies lifting their IP and gambling that even if taken to court they will make out better than licensing the IP in the first place.


----------



## rahlquist

RobertE said:


> For those that think that the little Tivo guy is going to come along and sprinkle magic Tivo dust on a DVR and it's going to have an epiphany and work beyond perfect, well... How well did those series 1s work, or series 2, the DTivos or even the S3 upon release? Oh, how the fanatics have such a short and selective memory.
> 
> Hate on the HR2x all you want, but one thing that it did do and it did well (weather you like it or not) was to unify the GUI across the DirecTv platform.


+1 I have to agree. I like the cuteness of the Tivo and hacability appealed to the hacker in me but those two alone arent worth jumping ship for. Now if the new DirecTivo brings all the new Series 3 features and the HR's are still struggling to get those same features working then I will seriously have to consider it.


----------



## jazzyd971fm

Wow I go to work this morning, get home this afternoon & find this thread with over 500+ posts. This news I didn't expect as I was pondering what to do with my SD Tivo. If this is a downloadable update/option then this is good news as this gives HR-2x customers(like me) a choice to or not to upgrade. Also I would surely guess there would be a new DirecTV/Tivo box with the new package in it. I have been lucky with both of my DVR's as they have been rock steady  The CE program will surely grow because of this; in the end hopefully this WILL be a good thing for all of us. Earl, if you had anything to do with this :goodjob:


----------



## Sixto

I've not touched a TiVo in a long time ... was a TiVo addict many moons ago ...

After all the hype today, decided to play around with a Series3 for about 30 minutes a little while ago ...

Wow ... was weird ... the HR2x is actually a great box! 

With the Series3 ...

Was very eery to have no sound and picture when looking thru the options and playlist ... had the Yankee game on in the background and couldn't wait to clear the screen to hear the game.

The remote felt weird ... I'm now actually accustomed to the DirecTV remote  ... geez, who would have ever thought ...

The menu's were somewhat slow ...

The guide looked old ... now so used to the DirecTV guide ...

Will be interesting in a year ...

The grass may not always be greener on the other side ...


----------



## lwilli201

Sorry if this has been covered but 14 pages is much to catchup on.

I do not think that Directv will be distributing these units. You will have to pay full price for them. It is unlikely that they will be in the lease program.

Also, the previous models required a telephone line for guide update. Will the new units require this? 

But I never thought this would happen.

I wonder what the folks over a Dish are thinking about this.


----------



## jal

Great news Directv! Can't wait to get a new HD Directivo! Can't wait to ship back my HR2X's!


----------



## DarinC

rudeney said:


> Because D* doesn't want to allow it right now. There is no technological reason it can't work. There are many financial reasons not to allow it.


Yes, I agree completely. I was simply pointing out that the HR2x and TiVos don't just dump the data on the drive as-is. They don't re-encode the content, but it is clearly encapsulated in some kind of security/encryption that prevents it from being completely open to any OS that trys to access it.


----------



## jeffloby

Who was the moderator on here that said you would never see this happen.


----------



## Sixto

jeffloby said:


> Who was the moderator on here that said you would never see this happen.


Most humans alive said this would never happen ...


----------



## Sixto

"The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement."


----------



## AZ_Engineer

All I can say is "I AM SOOOOO GLAD I WAITED". I've been a very satisfied HR10-250 user since they came out. I have two and we are total Tivo adicts. The only thing that will keep me from these units is if FIOS comes to Phx first...joe


----------



## groove93

RobertE said:


> I can appreciate that some are giddy like a school kid that Tivo is coming back, but please lets keep things in check.
> 
> This software and/or hardware, won't see the light of day for 9-15 months. Keep in mind how often does a company that deals with software/hardware on this level actually keep those targets? How about the Tivo Series 3?
> 
> For those that think that the little Tivo guy is going to come along and sprinkle magic Tivo dust on a DVR and it's going to have an epiphany and work beyond perfect, well... How well did those series 1s work, or series 2, the DTivos or even the S3 upon release? Oh, how the fanatics have such a short and selective memory.
> 
> Hate on the HR2x all you want, but one thing that it did do and it did well (weather you like it or not) was to unify the GUI across the DirecTv platform.
> 
> I've encountered countless people that have gotten upgrades from a Tivo to a R or HR2x and they have greatly enjoyed the fact that the remote, guide and menus are the same. No longer do they have to remember what button does what in each individual room. More importantly they don't have to keep reminding grandma that when in the living room you do X by doing Y, but in her room she needs to do X by doing Z.
> 
> I sincerely hope that whatever the gui they go with for this will closely match the current gui or the rumored '09 gui. A single unified gui across the current STBs is a must have from a usability and support standpoint.


So if the Tivo interface becomes a success and D* decides to use this platform for all of their hardware in the coming years, would you be upset?

With the amount of joyful glee found within this thread, if you ask me, this speaks volumes, and I'm reading alot of similar threads on other blogs and message boards as well. You gotta take the reaction into consideration. Obviously someone out there was listening.

Now the next step is to "reconvert" people with the new Tivo interface, or allow two platforms to live alongside eachother. If the option is to have two interfaces, I'm dropping the DTV's gui like a bad habit.

I have little experience with the HR10-250 (there's one set up at one of the schools I work for and it's as solid as my R10) so I don't know what the deal is with people having issues with it.

I want stablity, I can build a dedicated Media PC, buy an Xbox 360, or PS3 for all that other stuff.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> "The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement."


And you can bet that the Tivo DVR fee will be substantially higher than $5.99 per month, too.


----------



## jeffreydj

I have 3 three D* HD DVR's ... and I'll be getting me a HD MP4 Tivo as soon as they're available. I know not everyone agrees, but I loved my Tivo. Had one since the first gen in 1999 and finally had to shelf my last one in March. It was an incredibly sad day! lol.

I can't wait for my DLB and the Tivo Guide back!


----------



## Jeremy W

groove93 said:


> So if the Tivo interface becomes a success and D* decides to use this platform for all of their hardware in the coming years, would you be upset?


I can't speak for Robert E, but unless Tivo ditched some (most) of the UI paradigms they've clung to for 10 years, I would certainly be upset. Putting aside glitz and eye candy, Tivo's UI is *archaic* compared to the HR2x. You can't even look at the guide while you're watching a recording! It's completely asinine.


----------



## Rakul

> *UPDATE: *TiVo has just clarified for me that the service will run on DirecTV hardware, not the TiVo HD hardware as I had assumed.


I hadn't seen this update in the thread yet, found it as an update to a link posted in this thread previously:

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-09/new-hd-tivo-coming-to-directv/


----------



## groove93

Jeremy W said:


> I can't speak for Robert E, but unless Tivo ditched some (most) of the UI paradigms they've clung to for 10 years, I would certainly be upset. Putting aside glitz and eye candy, Tivo's UI is *archaic* compared to the HR2x. You can't even look at the guide while you're watching a recording! It's completely asinine.


All this talk about the gui being archaic is meaningless when the archaic interface is stable, reliable, dependable, and able to do it's job without worries.


----------



## Win Joy Jr

Jeremy W said:


> And you can bet that the Tivo DVR fee will be substantially higher than $5.99 per month, too.


But that was the plan a LONG time ago, when DirecTV was going to field both platforms. The baseline box was to be one price (or even free), and the TiVo box was going to be their "Premium" service...

Bring it on, I am returning to DirecTV this weekend, reactivating my 2 DirecTiVo's, and awaiting the new box!


----------



## Jeremy W

groove93 said:


> All this talk about the gui being archaic is meaningless when the archaic interface is stable, reliable, dependable, and able to do it's job without worries.


First of all, I wouldn't say it's meaningless unless the DVR is a complete pile of crap. Second of all, both of my HR2x DVRs are stable, reliable, dependable, and able to do their job without worries. So I'll take their more advanced interfaces over Tivo's archaic crap any day of the week.


----------



## jeffreydj

Jeremy W said:


> I can't speak for Robert E, but unless Tivo ditched some (most) of the UI paradigms they've clung to for 10 years, I would certainly be upset. Putting aside glitz and eye candy, Tivo's UI is *archaic* compared to the HR2x. You can't even look at the guide while you're watching a recording! It's completely asinine.


I could see the picture behind the guide -- but how in the world can a thumbnail -- even on a 50 inch be watchable WHILE READING GUIDE DATA? At least I could see most of a day in one click instead of scrolling to the right for a very long time to see even a few hours in advance. The Thumbnail means nothing to me while in the guide.


----------



## Jeremy W

Win Joy Jr said:


> But that was the plan a LONG time ago, when DirecTV was going to field both platforms. The baseline box was to be one price (or even free), and the TiVo box was going to be their "Premium" service...


That's fine, feel free to pay more for a box you consider to be superior. DirecTV is smart for allowing the fanatics to give them more money.


----------



## groove93

Jeremy W said:


> First of all, I wouldn't say it's meaningless unless the DVR is a complete pile of crap. Second of all, both of my HR2x DVRs are stable, reliable, dependable, and able to do their job without worries. So I'll take their more advanced interfaces over Tivo's archaic crap any day of the week.


If they are that reliable then why is this thread over 9 pages? 20 pages?


----------



## Win Joy Jr

jeffloby said:


> Who was the moderator on here that said you would never see this happen.


He was ADAMANT that it would NEVER happen...


----------



## Jeremy W

jeffreydj said:


> I could see the picture behind the guide -- but how in the world can a thumbnail -- even on a 50 inch be watchable WHILE READING GUIDE DATA? At least I could see most of a day in one click instead of scrolling to the right for a very long time to see even a few hours in advance. The Thumbnail means nothing to me while in the guide.


Fine, so you pause the recording while you're in the guide. Once you're done, exit out of the guide and hit play, and you're back where you left off. On the Tivo, you have to exit out of the guide, go back into the playlist, and then play your recording. It's not as seamless, and there are many times where I'd like to just have the recording continue on while I'm in the guide doing whatever I need to do. Tivo won't let me do that.


----------



## Jeremy W

groove93 said:


> If they are that reliable then why is this thread over 9 pages? 20 pages?


I fail to see how the length of this thread has anything at all to do with the reliability of DirecTV's DVRs.

If the Tivo is so great, then how come it's 72 degrees outside my house right now?


----------



## DarinC

RobertE said:


> Hate on the HR2x all you want, but one thing that it did do and it did well (weather you like it or not) was to unify the GUI across the DirecTv platform.


But why do I, as a customer, care about that? It's good if you happen to like that GUI, but if you don't, then you're stuck with no options beyond going to another provider.


----------



## mrowl

YES! I can't wait to switch back!

The HR2X is the biggest piece of junk that DirecTV has ever produced.


----------



## scottjf8

Win Joy Jr said:


> He was ADAMANT that it would NEVER happen...


What's your problem dude? You insist on bashing Earl here and at Tivocommunity? Does it just make you feel better go do a big "HA HA HA you were wrong!!!" ?

If so, glad you feel better about yourself.


----------



## groove93

Jeremy W said:


> I fail to see how the length of this thread has anything at all to do with the reliability of DirecTV's DVRs.
> 
> If the Tivo is so great, then how come it's 72 degrees outside my house right now?


DLB DLB

Great news

I want my Tivo Back

I'm dumping my HR2x

"when are they going to be released"

Thank you!!!!!

Hell Froze Over!!!!!!!!!

Who said Tivo would never come back to Direct TV?

I've had to read each of those responses atleast 5 to 10 times while reading this Novel of a thread.

People are reacting to this thread as if Moses Parted the Red Sea.


----------



## Sixto

Win Joy Jr said:


> He was ADAMANT that it would NEVER happen...


So what.

Move on ...


----------



## Win Joy Jr

Jeremy W said:


> That's fine, feel free to pay more for a box you consider to be superior. DirecTV is smart for allowing the fanatics to give them more money.


Yes, QUALITY does cost...


----------



## DarinC

lwilli201 said:


> Also, the previous models required a telephone line for guide update. Will the new units require this?


Not the DirecTV TiVos. The guide came via satellite, just like the HR2x. But they did need phone lines to authorize a software upgrade.


----------



## RobertE

DarinC said:


> Not the DirecTV TiVos. The guide came via satellite, just like the HR2x. But they did need phone lines to authorize a software upgrade.


And initial activation.


----------



## RobertE

DarinC said:


> But why do I, as a customer, care about that? It's good if you happen to like that GUI, but if you don't, then you're stuck with no options beyond going to another provider.


Because with a unified gui, the same button, or the same sequence gets you to the same place on each of the boxes around your house. Be it a SD box, a regular DVR, whatever. Makes it easy on the end user to not have to know multiple menu/guide structures for each and every tv in the house.


----------



## ub1934

* Yes , now we will get our DLB back !*


----------



## Win Joy Jr

Sixto said:


> So what.
> 
> Move on ...


The defacto position of this site, as expressed by the founders and moderators, was that "No Way In Hell Will DirecTV Return To TiVo!". People who brought up the subject were put down.

LEt it run its course...


----------



## RobertE

groove93 said:


> So if the Tivo interface becomes a success and D* decides to use this platform for all of their hardware in the coming years, would you be upset?
> 
> With the amount of joyful glee found within this thread, if you ask me, this speaks volumes, and I'm reading alot of similar threads on other blogs and message boards as well. You gotta take the reaction into consideration. Obviously someone out there was listening.
> 
> Now the next step is to "reconvert" people with the new Tivo interface, or allow two platforms to live alongside eachother. If the option is to have two interfaces, I'm dropping the DTV's gui like a bad habit.
> 
> I have little experience with the HR10-250 (there's one set up at one of the schools I work for and it's as solid as my R10) so I don't know what the deal is with people having issues with it.
> 
> I want stablity, I can build a dedicated Media PC, buy an Xbox 360, or PS3 for all that other stuff.


Will I be upset? Hard to say, we are at least a year, if not more from even seeing this thing. Who knows what it's going to look like. It may be like todays Tivos, it maybe be something that doesn't even resemble a Tivo today. I'll have to see it before I pass judgment.

With that said, I will be upset if the other current receivers at the time have a completely different gui. Now you've just doubled the learning curve for the customer.


----------



## vurbano

Jeremy W said:


> Fine, so you pause the recording while you're in the guide. Once you're done, exit out of the guide and hit play, and you're back where you left off. On the Tivo, you have to exit out of the guide, go back into the playlist, and then play your recording. It's not as seamless, and there are many times where I'd like to just have the recording continue on while I'm in the guide doing whatever I need to do. Tivo won't let me do that.


How do you know what this Tivo will do in 2009? Perhaps you should wait for the product to come out before evaluating it? trashing it now is asinine. Its likely to be the best thing on the market given the reputation of the old HR10-250.


----------



## DarinC

Jeremy W said:


> Second of all, both of my HR2x DVRs are stable, reliable, dependable, and able to do their job without worries.


That's great for you, but not everyone is so lucky.


> So I'll take their more advanced interfaces over Tivo's archaic crap any day of the week.


I don't even know what TiVo's current interface looks like. I simply know my old TiVos were more reliable, predictable, and enjoyable to use, and had features that I still miss. They were also slow, and in need of updating. Hopefully the last two issues will have improved in the past six years.


----------



## RobertE

vurbano said:


> How do you know what this Tivo will do in 2009? Perhaps you should wait for the product to come out before evaluating it? trashing it now is asinine. Its likely to be the best thing on the market given the reputation of the old HR10-250.


The Tivo Jihadists should follow that same advice. No one outside of Tivo/DirecTv have any idea what or how this thing will act/look. Pimping it as the second coming of <greater deity here> is just a tad bit premature.


----------



## mightythor88

the usual suspects are still hating on tivo I see. From what I can tell people who want tivo can have it and pay an extra fee for it and people who want hr2x's can have those. cant we all get along?! :grin: 

maybe this is the "what is better than dlb?" question answered.

some people may feel "duck flb" but it seems every quality dvr on the market has dlb and directv obviously realized that not having it available was putting them behind their competitors.

The acrimony on this site towards tivo has always been a little weird to me, but hey whatever gets you thru the day.

either way I am glad to see hell has frozen over and we have a choice going forward. I figured with the cable companies having to offer tru2way etc Directv is planning ahead knowing they will have to be made accessable by tivo anyway.


----------



## DarinC

RobertE said:


> Because with a unified gui, the same button, or the same sequence gets you to the same place on each of the boxes around your house. Be it a SD box, a regular DVR, whatever. Makes it easy on the end user to not have to know multiple menu/guide structures for each and every tv in the house.


I guess I never understood why someone would choose a non-DVR receiver.  But my SD TiVo and HD TiVo worked pretty much the same. I also don't have a problem switching between them and the HR21s, but I could see how a difference would bother some.


----------



## California King

Second half of 2009?!


----------



## mightythor88

Win Joy Jr said:


> The defacto position of this site, as expressed by the founders and moderators, was that "No Way In Hell Will DirecTV Return To TiVo!". People who brought up the subject were put down.
> 
> LEt it run its course...


i agree...I was one of those who would bring it up and was always shouted down by the tivo haters.

let the tivo people enjoy their day in the sun, it has been a long time coming!


----------



## Sixto

mightythor88 said:


> either way I am glad to see hell has frozen over and we have a choice going forward. I figured with the cable companies having to offer tru2way etc Directv is planning ahead knowing they will have to be made accessable by tivo anyway.


Yep ...

If you like Coke (HR2x) then you'll be happy ...

And if you prefer Pepsi (new DirecTiVo HD) then you'll be happy ...

And everyone's thirst will be satisfied ...

Long live DirecTV!


----------



## RobertE

DarinC said:


> I guess I never understood why someone would choose a non-DVR receiver.  But my SD TiVo and HD TiVo worked pretty much the same. I also don't have a problem switching between them and the HR21s, but I could see how a difference would bother some.


Me either, once you use a DVR, a non DVR is, well...a waste.

Anyway, my point is, a single gui is much, much easier for a family to use from my "teaching" experience.


----------



## General Custer

This is awesome news.

If done correctly, the CE process can go away. The only reason its needed is the HR was created in such a way that it was full of bugs. Directv needed help to get it fixed. It was rushed to market with missing features and they are still playing catch up.

Hopefully TIVO will roll out a complete non-beta system with all of its intended features intact and in working order.


----------



## Tom Robertson

RobertE said:


> A universal remote (unless it has macros) still doesn't get grandma to some places with the same key sequence. Try getting to same screen or area on a RCA DRD430, a Samsung SIR360 and a DTivo. All different. Different is bad, same is good.


Understand completely. Universal remotes was purely a goofy joke; UI is still about how to maneuver from point A to point B.

(And your original post is still well written.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Win Joy Jr

General Custer said:


> This is awesome news.
> 
> If done correctly, the CE process can go away. The only reason its needed is the HR was created in such a way that it was full of bugs. Directv needed help to get it fixed. It was rushed to market with missing features and they are still playing catch up.
> 
> Hopefully TIVO will roll out a complete non-beta system with all of its intended features intact and in working order.


Well, if the past is any indication, TiVo will run the Beta / Field Trials...


----------



## jbuch

jcwest said:


> Now the TIVO freaks will be jumping for joy today.


My wife heard me yell with excitement from the basement and thought I'd won some money or something.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jeffloby said:


> Who was the moderator on here that said you would never see this happen.


I was one. Based on the information I had from several sources, I did not expect this to happen for a very long time, where long approaches ever.


Win Joy Jr said:


> He was ADAMANT that it would NEVER happen...


Earl sources overlapped mine, so his sources are likely just as surprised as mine are today (or this week.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## vurbano

RobertE said:


> The Tivo Jihadists should follow that same advice. No one outside of Tivo/DirecTv have any idea what or how this thing will act/look. Pimping it as the second coming of <greater deity here> is just a tad bit premature.


If the new one can be modified as much as the old one then it is the second coming as far as I am concerned even if it has ALL of the faults of the old one. My HR21 would be gone in a flash and be replaced by the HD Tivo. CE updates are going to continue for how many years on the HR2x series? Its ridiculous IMO. Is D* just stringing us along? Are all of these features ever going to work? Are they ever going to go mainstream with Directv2PC? If all of this was planned for the HR2X series then it was a terrible plan. They should have gone with the HDTIVO FIRST and held back the release of the HR2X until it was ready IMO.


----------



## kevinwmsn

I hope they get new hardware. Would like one with 4-8 sat inputs(using SWM) and OTA capability with MRV(that would be a real whole house DVR)
Quad Live buffers would be good(2 is ok, but we need more for sports).
1TB or larger HD.

If they use the existing hardware
How about - being able to add the following:
record 3 things at once(2 sats, 1 OTA or 2 OTA 1 sat) (per manual)
bring on MRV(including the ability to watch shows on ps3/xbox360).
eliminate the 50 series link limit.
Add a power off option in the menu.
DLB would be good too.

It would be funny if they add Mpeg4 HD capability to HR10-250....

Didn't the HR10-250 when it came out had about as many issues at the hr20 when it came out?


----------



## Tom Robertson

General Custer said:


> This is awesome news.
> 
> If done correctly, the CE process can go away. The only reason its needed is the HR was created in such a way that it was full of bugs. Directv needed help to get it fixed. It was rushed to market with missing features and they are still playing catch up.
> 
> Hopefully TIVO will roll out a complete non-beta system with all of its intended features intact and in working order.


You are aware that TiVo has a beta program too? And has for a long time? Does that mean the TiVo was "full of bugs...Tivo needed help to get it fixed. It was rushed to market..."? 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

vurbano said:


> If the new one can be modified as much as the old one then it is the second coming as far as I am concerned even if it has ALL of the faults of the old one. My HR21 would be gone in a flash and be replaced by the HD Tivo. CE updates are going to continue for how many years on the HR2x series? Its ridiculous IMO. Is D* just stringing us along? Are all of these features ever going to work? Are they ever going to go mainstream with Directv2PC? If all of this was planned for the HR2X series then it was a terrible plan. They should have gone with the HDTIVO FIRST and held back the release of the HR2X until it was ready IMO.


I ask you the same question I asked General Custer: You are aware that TiVo has a beta program too? Their beta program has existed longer than the HR2x has? Does that mean TiVo has been stringing you along a lot longer? 

And I expect one of the requirements will be that the new TiVos are more secure than the older ones. But I've obviously been wrong about DIRECTV/TiVo's before. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## rahlquist

vurbano said:


> If the new one can be modified as much as the old one then it is the second coming as far as I am concerned even if it has ALL of the faults of the old one. My HR21 would be gone in a flash and be replaced by the HD Tivo. CE updates are going to continue for how many years on the HR2x series? Its ridiculous IMO. Is D* just stringing us along? Are all of these features ever going to work? Are they ever going to go mainstream with Directv2PC? If all of this was planned for the HR2X series then it was a terrible plan. They should have gone with the HDTIVO FIRST and held back the release of the HR2X until it was ready IMO.


I'm gonna break the cardinal rule and say that the release I am on works very well.

Both before CE and after CE the basic functionality of my HR has been perfect. YMMV.

I have never missed a recording, had a blank recording, though caller id has shown odd chars and the screen saver has come on while doing media share. Show stoppers, not at all.

If sources are right and the Tivo software will be engineered to run on the HR series then it stands to reason that D* should continue to develop and work out the bugs you and other complain about on the HR series, and they should add features that are already in the dev queue. If you go read the history you can read between the lines what has likely happened over the years. Tivo decided it needed more money, D* refused since they had just been bought and had access to the resources to build their own DVR (for better or worse). They parted ways, and only after D* was cut free from the corporate nepitisim that had bred the HR series are we now able to see a new DVR come from Tivo (also at this point Tivo is likely shall we say EAGERLY looking for any revenue possible even if its not the huge sums they wanted before).

My first DVR was the Samsung you see in my sig, still very useful, however, its at EOL and I eagerly await to replace it with whichever device serves me best, and for that only time will tell.


----------



## rahlquist

Win Joy Jr said:


> The defacto position of this site, as expressed by the founders and moderators, was that "No Way In Hell Will DirecTV Return To TiVo!". People who brought up the subject were put down.
> 
> LEt it run its course...


Course run, you said "I told you so." Lets let it go.


----------



## rahlquist

DarinC said:


> But why do I, as a customer, care about that? It's good if you happen to like that GUI, but if you don't, then you're stuck with no options beyond going to another provider.


One other reason comes to mind. Lower cost. If a unified GUI is used it lowers support training time, costs, and inaccuracies when helping customers. If the CSR dont have to have intimate knowledge of 6 different GUI they may have more time to train on other job aspects that would be more beneficial and would lead to a more consistent experience.

So yes it may look like an Edsel to you or some, but to D*, universal GUI looks like a prius.


----------



## kjnorman

Woo Hoo!

This is great news and one that will make my wife happy. She has never liked the directv boxes since we moved away from the HR10. It did not have a lot if features but boy did it just work well for what we wanted. 

The two HR2x are okay and have some nice functions but they are incomplete in the basics. The jump back from fast forward seams to be a lottery as to the timing, whereas we could nail the Tivo every time. The options on the HR2x search are more feature rich but the TiVo interface was easier to use and just more elegant/intuitive.

The TiVo's recording ability and time shifting smoothness is without peers.

Now if Directv and Tivo can merge the best of both boxes into one new box then this could be very exciting news.

Is it too soon to start a Directivo preorder thread?


----------



## gully_foyle

I wonder how big a disk you'll be able to fit in it at the end of 2009....


----------



## DarinC

rahlquist said:


> One other reason comes to mind. Lower cost. If a unified GUI is used it lowers support training time, costs, and inaccuracies when helping customers. If the CSR dont have to have intimate knowledge of 6 different GUI they may have more time to train on other job aspects that would be more beneficial and would lead to a more consistent experience.


Yes, I'm familiar with that argument, but honestly, I just don't believe it can make a major difference. I have an SD TiVo, an HD TiVo, and a couple HR21s. I have several different TVs, all of different brands. Various DVD players, computers with a couple different OSs, etc. etc. etc. If a consumer can keep their various products straight, I would think that someone who's job it was to support products could handle a few different flavors of them. It's not like they rattle this stuff off the top of their head, they have resources right in front of them.

Where I DO buy in to that philosophy is in development... being able to "copy/paste" code and design can certainly save time. But if you're outsourcing the development, it's moot.

But in the end, it doesn't matter. A company needs to decide what to offer to draw customers, and how to manage costs. If they believe offering TiVo will give them an edge in the marketplace, then additional cost may be justifiable.


----------



## Ken S

Tom Robertson said:


> I was one. Based on the information I had from several sources, I did not expect this to happen for a very long time, where long approaches ever.
> 
> Earl sources overlapped mine, so his sources are likely just as surprised as mine are today (or this week.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom,

My guess is that your sources were people close to the development of the HR2x. If they believed anything different than what they told you the HR2x would have been totally doomed. No quality developer is going to stay in that position or work the long hours necessary to make a system work if they know it's just a stop gap project.

This decision was made at far higher levels probably by folks that are much more comfortable at looking at spreadsheets and marketing reports than sql queries and variable strings.

I hope that the developers are smart enough, for their own sake, to know it may be time to start looking because I would find it very, very hard to believe that DirecTV is going to continue to develop and support two separate DVR operating systems in the long run...there is no financial benefit to doing so.


----------



## Chaos

My first DVR was UltimateTV. I loved it because it could record two things at once while the DirecTIVOs could only do one (at the time). Then the DTivos could and I embraced them even though they didn't have all of the features of the UltimateTV (UltimateTV was discontinued). Then I got the HR10-250. I loved having access to the DVR functions for HD programming, but it was unusable for recording HD reliably - stutters, audio dropouts, etc through many, many "national release" software versions. So, it became a standard def DVR with a big hard drive. Finally, the HR2 series came out. As a pretty heavy duty Tivo user (5 in the house), I held off for 6 months until we started getting close to MPEG4 channels. I finally made the jump to HR2x in May of 2007 and it records beautifully and now (with 4 in the house), I record virtually everything in high def.

As long as we don't lose the HR2x interface as an option, I'm glad that those who want the Tivo interface will be able to have it. I'm not interested. With the extra money they'll be paying for it, it won't affect my costs. It's win-win for everyone.


----------



## Tom Robertson

GUI support costs vary by the industry. Remember the cable/satellite to the home industry deals with people of ALL technical abilities. With 17M customers, small changes that reduce the number of support calls, save LOTS of money very, very fast.

Contrast that to an advanced AV receiver. Generally only more technically minded people buy one. And are able to read the manual _and_ understand it.  A common GUI isn't nearly as important to us.

I can easily see where a common GUI saves time on call because the CSRs already know the most basic answers, training $$, script $$, etc. It all adds up at that size.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mhayes70

Win Joy Jr said:


> He was ADAMANT that it would NEVER happen...


You guys need to understand that things happen and things do change. About every corporation out there will say this or that will never happen and then years down the road something changes and they reverse there decision. That has happened several times where I work. I was one that thought Tivo was dead with Directv and also said it would never come back. But, things change and Tivo will be back. So, please move on and lets discuss the advantages and disadvantages and have some healthy debate on this news.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ken S said:


> Tom,
> 
> My guess is that your sources were people close to the development of the HR2x. If they believed anything different than what they told you the HR2x would have been totally doomed. No quality developer is going to stay in that position or work the long hours necessary to make a system work if they know it's just a stop gap project.
> 
> This decision was made at far higher levels probably by folks that are much more comfortable at looking at spreadsheets and marketing reports than sql queries and variable strings.
> 
> I hope that the developers are smart enough, for their own sake, to know it may be time to start looking because I would find it very, very hard to believe that DirecTV is going to continue to develop and support two separate DVR operating systems in the long run...there is no financial benefit to doing so.


Many of my contacts are in development, obviously. 

And the primary focus of DIRECTV's DVR line will continue to be the DVR Plus. This announcement just gives DIRECTV customers options. The developers are still a great team, doing a great job.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## davidjplatt

Until we actually see specs on the new TiVo hardware platform (or that the HR2x will be the platform) it's really a moot point.

Hopefully by 2009 it will have at least a 1TB drive and a much faster processor with more memory.

Remember - DirecTV basically crippled the TiVo - TiVo didn't cripple it. I would hope the new TiVo would have MRV, DirecTV on Demand, external hard drive/archive capability, etc.

The cool thing is the TiVo interface is still the best around - yes, there are some features on the HR2x that are neat but that doesn't mean they can't be put on the TiVo also.


----------



## DarinC

Ken S said:


> Tom,
> 
> My guess is that your sources were people close to the development of the HR2x. If they believed anything different than what they told you the HR2x would have been totally doomed.


It's also quite possible that this is a relatively recent decision. I have no doubt that Tom's sources were correct during the Murdoch regime. But with Liberty now controlling things, the rules may have changed completely. After having time to evaluate everything, they may have wondered why NOT offer TiVo? Two years later, there are still customers unhappy with the HR2x, and there is still a portion of the market that loves TiVo.


----------



## mhayes70

Tom Robertson said:


> And the primary focus of DIRECTV's DVR line will continue to be the DVR Plus. This announcement just gives DIRECTV customers options. The developers are still a great team, doing a great job.


Very true! I had a Tivo way back when and liked it alot. But, I do love my HR series DVR's and I think it has a great future with all of it's new possibilities.


----------



## rudeney

66stang351 said:


> Nope, recordings are dependant on receiver ID not access card. I had a DIRECTV engineer come out and swap a receiver and he swapped the access card from the old one to the new one. Recordings on the eSATA were not viewable using the same access card on a different receiver.


You are correct - the eSATA is tied to the receiver ID, but the actual decoding of the protected data stream is done in the access card.


----------



## Win Joy Jr

I'll get off my soapbox. TiVo is back with DirecTV, and it is a good thing...


----------



## jeffloby

I am honest in saying that I like my HR20's better than the H10-250 I had. This is just my opinion. I love all the things DirecTV has done with the HR20's. I don't think I would switch back.

PS: Tom Robertson, I appreciate every thing you and the other moderators do for us. Thank you


----------



## Tom Robertson

jeffloby said:


> I am honest in saying that I like my HR20's better than the H10-250 I had. This is just my opinion. I love all the things DirecTV has done with the HR20's. I don't think I would switch back.
> 
> PS: Tom Robertson, I appreciate every thing you and the other moderators do for us. Thank you


On behalf of the whole team, you and all the DBStalk'ers of every DVR religion are welcome.


----------



## mightythor88

its funny how people are saying to move on, when it is the 1st day of the news.

if this was a week from now, ok. But day 1 people are going to be excited, esp when so many people on this site said tivo would"never" make another directv dvr and we were told to get with the hr2x's or "good luck" with another provider.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Win Joy Jr said:


> I'll get off my soapbox. TiVo is back with DirecTV, and it is a good thing...


Yes, I think it is a good thing. Collaboration and innovation, especially when it gives customers options, is a very powerful thing.


----------



## Tom Robertson

mightythor88 said:


> its funny how people are saying to move on, when it is the 1st day of the news.
> 
> if this was a week from now, ok. But day 1 people are going to be excited, esp when so many people on this site said tivo would"never" make another directv dvr and we were told to get with the hr2x's or "good luck" with another provider.


I'd love to joke about this post, but I don't want to imply anything other than jocularity. So insert implied mischevious, but well intentioned, comment here.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Well, I finally got a chance to catch up with this thread... (well, most of it anyway :grin... 

This is a huge surprise to me... I guess options are good though... and I'm happy for all of you die-hard Tivo fans out there... But I'm happy with what I have...


----------



## jhart05

I love TiVo. Getting used to the DVR on these R22s thou.

If I had my choice I'd take TiVo.

I hope this ends up not being just for the HD receivers but they also do something for the SD users.

Course by the time this comes out maybe I'll have HD anyway.


----------



## rudeney

DarinC said:


> Yes, I agree completely. I was simply pointing out that the HR2x and TiVos don't just dump the data on the drive as-is. They don't re-encode the content, but it is clearly encapsulated in some kind of security/encryption that prevents it from being completely open to any OS that trys to access it.


Darin, while no one but D* (and possibly TiVo) know for sure, but there is a tremendous amount of evidence that the data recorded to the DVR's hard drive is actually the un-decoded signal straight from the satellite. It has to run through the access card to be decoded. As for tying it to a specific receiver, it appears to be on the receiver ID and not the access card ID. That is based on the fact that subs who have had to replace access cards have still been able to view eSATA shows on that same receiver. My educated guess is that shows aren't actually "encoded" with the receiver ID, but maybe the recording receiver ID is simply stored as "header" information and the DVR software won't allow playback of another receiver's shows. In other words, with a single line of code being changed, eSATA would be completely portable.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Yep ...
> 
> If you like Coke (HR2x) then you'll be happy ...
> 
> And if you prefer Pepsi (new DirecTiVo HD) then you'll be happy ...
> 
> And everyone's thirst will be satisfied ...
> 
> Long live DirecTV!


Well said Sixto!

I simply do not understand people's "fervor" for either DVR.

I LOVE TiVo, and do not understand people's dislike for it, but by the same token, the HR20 is a VERY nice DVR and I don't understand people's dislike of it. I admit that I do currently prefer the TiVo features/interface over the DirecTV+ feature set/GUI, but DirecTV has done A LOT to close the gap since I first got mine, and there are one or two features the HR20 has that I like that TiVo doesn't have.

I am excited by this news, but I still don't know what I'll have come next Fall/Winter.

~Alan


----------



## joannel

Wow!! I never really thought that this would ever happen. I can't wait until this happens. I'm looking forward to getting back my beloved DLB...I never did master the pseudo DLB by recording one program and pausing another etc..Yippee!!!


----------



## Alan Gordon

Oh yeah, I don't get the Moderator Hate, I've disagreed with Earl (and Tom, and others) on MANY occasions (particularly Earl), but they were just going by what they were told.

I personally think closing the book on any future possibility is a little "naive", but on a message board, future possibilities can sometimes get people's hopes up when there is (often) no, or very little reason to have hope... which was the case with the DirecTV/TiVo relationship.

~Alan


----------



## rudeney

Tom Robertson said:


> I was one. Based on the information I had from several sources, I did not expect this to happen for a very long time, where long approaches ever.
> 
> Earl sources overlapped mine, so his sources are likely just as surprised as mine are today (or this week.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You know, if I had a dollar for every time a company reevaluated its decisions and went back on it's "word" that it would "never" do "that", well, then I'd own D* and I'd be putting my efforts into DLB, MRV, and 99.999% reliability and stability by the end of the month.

Seriously, people change their minds. Corporate decisions are made by people, so what's the big deal here? D* and TiVo both revisited their past decisions and, as surprising as it may seem, came to the conclusion that they were both better off working together again. Really, it's no big deal.


----------



## Ken S

DarinC said:


> It's also quite possible that this is a relatively recent decision. I have no doubt that Tom's sources were correct during the Murdoch regime. But with Liberty now controlling things, the rules may have changed completely. After having time to evaluate everything, they may have wondered why NOT offer TiVo? Two years later, there are still customers unhappy with the HR2x, and there is still a portion of the market that loves TiVo.


I've seen decisions bigger than this made because the wrong person gets ticked off. I wasn't kidding when I said it could have been something like someone's grandkid or kid seeing an adult title, a wife getting a blank recording, etc. that got this ball rolling very quickly.


----------



## RobertE

Ken S said:


> I've seen decisions bigger than this made because the wrong person gets ticked off. I wasn't kidding when I said it could have been something like someone's grandkid or kid seeing an adult title, a wife getting a blank recording, etc. that got this ball rolling very quickly.


And that ball can (in theory) be stopped just as quickly as well.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ken S said:


> I've seen decisions bigger than this made because the wrong person gets ticked off. I wasn't kidding when I said it could have been something like someone's grandkid or kid seeing an adult title, a wife getting a blank recording, etc. that got this ball rolling very quickly.


Indeed, these things do happen. I too have seen and read about stuff like this.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## spartanstew

I'm disappointed in you people. When I left the house this morning at 9:30 and there were 150 posts already, I told my wife there'd be over 1000 posts by the time I logged back on at 9:30pm. Nope. Get with it people. Now, after spending the last hour catching up, a few comments.



lwilli201 said:


> Sorry if this has been covered but 14 pages is much to catchup on.


I'm not necessarily picking on you willi, yours is just one of probably 75 posts like this. With such a big announcement and so many thoughts and information in this thread, how could people NOT read the whole thread before posting? It makes no sense. As if the posters thoughts were so much more important than the other hundreds of thoughts. Not to mention the fact that the thread would probably be half as big if people read it and didn't keep posting the same thing over and over. Heck, there's what 3 pictures of Hell freezing over, 10 comments about wondering if EArl was behind this (with the requisite LOL), etc. Reading, it's fundamental.



groove93 said:


> If they are that reliable then why is this thread over 9 pages? 20 pages?


As was mentioned (a few times), one has nothing to do with the other. Even those of us that love the HR2X's, think this is good news and would comment.



mightythor88 said:


> the usual suspects are still hating on tivo I see.


Another example of someone that hasn't read the thread. There are many members that like the D* DVR's that have expressed that this is a good thing. None of them have "hated" on tivo. However, there have been MANY D* "haters" that have taken this opportunity to bash D*, D* DVR's, and D*'s programmers.



mightythor88 said:


> i agree...I was one of those who would bring it up and was always shouted down by the tivo haters.


Yes, many people said this would never happen (including me). Do you know why? Because they thought this would never happen, based on the information they had. You really think it was because of tivo "hate" or they were trying to shout down YOU? That's a pretty egocentric point of view, isn't it? What did you expect them to do? Say, "yes, I'm sure it'll happen" just to placate you even though they thought differently?

Just because people have different thoughts/views/information than you, doesn't mean they're out to get you.

As I said this morning, this is a good thing for D*. I don't think I'll go back, much to the chagrin of the tivo dolls laying around the house. When I told my wife about this today over dinner, she didn't even care and she was the biggest tivotee I ever met (including a tivo dude on her car antenna and a tivo sticker on her rear window). She loves the features of the D* DVR's. You never know though, maybe we'll experiment and decide to go back. Only time will tell.


----------



## Alan Gordon

spartanstew said:


> Another example of someone that hasn't read the thread. There are many members that like the D* DVR's that have expressed that this is a good thing. *None of them have "hated" on tivo.* However, there have been MANY D* "haters" that have taken this opportunity to bash D*, D* DVR's, and D*'s programmers.





Jeremy W said:


> Putting aside glitz and eye candy, Tivo's UI is *archaic* compared to the HR2x. You can't even look at the guide while you're watching a recording! It's completely asinine.





Jeremy W said:


> First of all, I wouldn't say it's meaningless unless the DVR is a complete pile of crap. Second of all, both of my HR2x DVRs are stable, reliable, dependable, and able to do their job without worries. So I'll take their more advanced interfaces over *Tivo's archaic crap* any day of the week.


Just two examples off the top of my head! 



spartanstew said:


> Yes, many people said this would never happen (including me). Do you know why? Because they thought this would never happen, based on the information they had.


Not to fuel the flames as I really don't see why it's a big deal, but saying something will never happen, and that one does not believe it will happen is two different things.

~Alan


----------



## michaelp95

There's no place like TIVO, there's no place like TIVO.........


----------



## Alan Gordon

Ken S said:


> I've seen decisions bigger than this made because the wrong person gets ticked off. I wasn't kidding when I said it could have been something like *someone's grandkid or kid seeing an adult title*, a wife getting a blank recording, etc. that got this ball rolling very quickly.





Tom Robertson said:


> Indeed, these things do happen. I too have seen and read about stuff like this.


I want to state that this is NOT a insult towards the DirecTV+ DVRs, but rather a compliment to TiVo.

I don't have kids in the household, so it's not an issue for me, but TiVo KidZone is GREAT! TiVo REALLY should market it better for people with kids...

~Alan


----------



## rahlquist

rudeney said:


> You know, if I had a dollar for every time a company reevaluated its decisions and went back on it's "word" that it would "never" do "that", well, then I'd own D* and I'd be putting my efforts into DLB, MRV, and 99.999% reliability and stability by the end of the month.


+1 Never* carries the same weight as Unlimited*


----------



## Sixto

Been a busy day for Tivo. Just announced a 1TB Tivo ... http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/09/04/tivo-hd-xl-dvr-150-hours-of-hd-recording-599-99-available-no/

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-09/tivo-hd-xl-unveiled-1tb-of-storage/​


----------



## spartanstew

Alan Gordon said:


> Just two examples off the top of my head!


And those examples weren't a response to something else?


----------



## Draconis

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, I think it is a good thing. Collaboration and innovation, especially when it gives customers options, is a very powerful thing.


The thing I think will be most interesting will be the competition between the HR20/21 developers and the TiVo developers.

You know that the TiVo developers want the customers to buy TiVo DVR's, and the DIRECTV developers will want customers to buy HR20/21 Etc. DVRs.

I'm thinking this is going to be a good thing, and that we are going to see quite a few new features/patches come from this competition.

The other thing I'm wondering about is if this is going to drive some software updates for the existing TiVo units.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

DirecTiVo


----------



## Que

/me comes home from work, checks new post on dbstalk.com...

There a new thread on here from today with 620 post.. in..*ONE DAY*?? Over 20,586 views...25 pages long.. What can cause this much attention??? OMG!

"DIRECTV and Tivo to Launch new HD DVR in 2H 2009"!!!

/me does the happy dance!!

Wait! They done this before... maybe I should wait until it is out. Ah what the hell /does the happy dance.. and they said it WOULD NEVER HAPPEN GO SOMEWHERE else if you don't like it.

Michael Corleone: Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in. (for at least another 15 months then they will cancel the Tivo thing )


----------



## AEPZ

OMG! I'm just catching up. 

After working soooo hard to convince the wife to move off of Tivo and explaining why it would never come back I find myself eating my own words. While I enjoy the HR20's and 21 in my possesion. I can very easily picture a scenario where the wife tells me its Tivo or else. Like all good obidient husbands I will give in, cheaper to keep her and all of that.

My love of the HR series comes from participating in the CE program and trying to achieve parity with what Tivo has been delivering. The hope was DTV with the Replay acquisition would aggressively move to supersede Tivo. 

That hasn't happended. I know that I will be switching back, its not an if but a when. The only variable is how much will DTV demand from Tivo in terms of crippiling features/capabilities.

Then again I just signed up for Comcast HSI, so who knows...

Sorry HR DVR team, but if Mommy isn't happy nobody's happy....


----------



## Tom Robertson

We can always hope that in the next 12 months before the TiVo is out, Mama will be happy with the HR2x.


----------



## Alan Gordon

spartanstew said:


> And those examples weren't a response to something else?


Does it matter?

Look, over the years I have read MANY put-downs of TiVo by MULTIPLE posters here. I have also read MANY put-downs of the HR2x series by MULTIPLE posters here. I don't understand WHY people feel the need to do either?

If you like the HR2x series better, then you're good as you currently have one and come next year, you won't feel the need/desire to spend extra to get a TiVo. If someone prefers TiVo, it should not affect your preference for the HR2x.

If you like the TiVo software better, than you're good as you will (most likely) have that choice next year. If someone prefers the HR2x series to TiVo, more power to them.

At this time, I still prefer the TiVo functions over the HR2x series. By the time the TiVo DVR comes out next year, I may prefer the HR2x series. Either way, I'm glad I have a choice now! 

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

vurbano said:


> How do you know what this Tivo will do in 2009? Perhaps you should wait for the product to come out before evaluating it? trashing it now is asinine. Its likely to be the best thing on the market given the reputation of the old HR10-250.


I think that it is completely fair to take into account 10 years of history related to a company's UI philosophy. Especially when their current products still hold on to it. Tivo has kept so many things exactly the same since the beginning, why is it wrong to assume that these things won't change in the next year? As far as I'm concerned, it's foolish to believe that they will.


----------



## spartanstew

Alan Gordon said:


> Does it matter?


Yes, it matters.

If you look at the original post I quoted, it stated "the usual suspects are still hating on tivo I see".

That's simply not the case. There are those that bash D* and then IN RESPONSE to that other members point out that tivo isn't perfect either (in their opinion). That's totally different than the blanket statement that "people are hating on tivo".

Maybe you don't see the difference, but if go back and look at the whole thread, I can almost guarantee you that you'll find 10 posts bashing D* and their DVR for every 1 post that says anything negative about tivo.

I so agree with you that neither should take place, but for someone to jump in the thread and simply state that the "tivo haters" are back at it, is flat out wrong.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Guys, lets talk DBS, DIRECTV, and TiVo. Not each other or each other's intent.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Brennok

wow just finished the thread. I for one can't wait. 

For the most part the features that people rave about on the H2Xs are the things that annoyed me about the DTV DVRs. I never had the H2X but I finally called to cancel my R15 since I could never get used to it after a year and when I did use it I had problems. 

Along the same lines, the things people hate on Tivo are the things I like. Before I turn on my TV, the first thing I do is hit the Tivo button so I am not at risk of ruining the end of a show I am recording. I also like the fact I can browse through everything without seeing live TV since I am always recording something. I like the fact my Tivo easily handles 125+ season passes per Tivo without skipping a beat. 

I definitely hope we get such features as MRV and the HMO. I do hope they continue to offer such features as soft padding which they just introduced on the DTivo with version 6.4. Personally this may be what it takes to make me make the jump to HD.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom Robertson said:


> Guys, lets talk DBS, DIRECTV, and TiVo. Not each other or each other's intent.


Agreed! 

~Alan


----------



## HDinMA

raoul5788 said:


> This is going to make a lot of Tivo owners very happy!


And the folks who just "upgraded" for "free" from the H10-250 box to HR21/22 quite angry.


----------



## Jeremy W

HDinMA said:


> And the folks who just "upgraded" for "free" from the H10-250 box to HR21/22 quite angry.


Yeah, I'm sure having all of those HD channels for at least a year is just awful.


----------



## Doug Brott

Alan Gordon said:


> Oh yeah, I don't get the Moderator Hate, I've disagreed with Earl (and Tom, and others) on MANY occasions (particularly Earl), but they were just going by what they were told.
> 
> I personally think closing the book on any future possibility is a little "naive", but on a message board, future possibilities can sometimes get people's hopes up when there is (often) no, or very little reason to have hope... which was the case with the DirecTV/TiVo relationship.
> 
> ~Alan


That is a very accurate description .. If you'd have asked me last night, I would have said .. not going to happen .. today, obviously, things have changed.


----------



## Geekzilla

I am thinking that this is one project that could be ready ahead of schedule. TiVo has a bunch of experience running DirecTiVo systems going back to DSR6000 days. Whether it runs on an HR2x or a new box might not make a major difference since both hardware platforms would presumably be somewhat similar. I think I read somewhere that S3 and HR2x utilize the same CPU. 

The difference between the platforms is all about functionality to me. The reality is that the CE programs are guiding the HR2x to the functionality that a properly hacked DirecTiVo has had for about the last 5 years, such as MRV & Directv2pc. I must say I am grateful for the new openness in allowing the public to participate in CE's. Whichever system gives me the flexibility to legally use the data as I see fit will be the solution I end up with.


----------



## Jeremy W

Geekzilla said:


> I am thinking that this is one project that could be ready ahead of schedule.


Tivo has never done anything ahead of schedule. Don't get your hopes up.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Geekzilla said:


> I am thinking that this is one project that could be ready ahead of schedule. TiVo has a bunch of experience running DirecTiVo systems going back to DSR6000 days. Whether it runs on an HR2x or a new box might not make a major difference since both hardware platforms would presumably be somewhat similar. I think I read somewhere that S3 and HR2x utilize the same CPU.
> 
> The difference between the platforms is all about functionality to me. The reality is that the CE programs are guiding the HR2x to the functionality that a properly hacked DirecTiVo has had for about the last 5 years, such as MRV & Directv2pc. I must say I am grateful for the new openness in allowing the public to participate in CE's. Whichever system gives me the flexibility to legally use the data as I see fit will be the solution I end up with.


One of the questions I have is what DIRECTV innovations will be required of the new DIRECTiVos:
1) DIRECTV2PC support (including DLNA)?
2) GameLounge?
3) Interactive features for NFL ST and Mix Channels?
4) Widgets?
5) Media Share similar to the HR2x?

If all these need to be supported and therefore ported to the TiVo middleware, then 12 months could be a very tight fit.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

Certainly remember that nothing has been done yet .. This is an agreement, and even if work did start today (doubtful) A year to put this together is a very short time ..


----------



## xtc

I don't see how they can charge an entirely different rate if you want the TiVo software service.

Right Now, I have one HR20 and two DirecTiVo's. I pay 1 DVR service fee on my bill. And that covers the DirecTV interface for my HR20 and the TiVo interface for my 2 TiVos. So if I'm paying one fee for multiple software/interfaces now, how are they gonna change that?


----------



## Geekzilla

Tom Robertson said:


> One of the questions I have is what DIRECTV innovations will be required of the new DIRECTiVos:
> 1) DIRECTV2PC support (including DLNA)?
> 2) GameLounge?
> 3) Interactive features for NFL ST and Mix Channels?
> 4) Widgets?
> 5) Media Share similar to the HR2x?
> 
> If all these need to be supported and therefore ported to the TiVo middleware, then 12 months could be a very tight fit.


I will be completely satisfied when the following are implemented:
1) DIRECTV2PC support (including DLNA)?
6) MRV which allows physically moving shows between dvr's, not just streaming
5) Media Share similar to the HR2x? - this is slightly less important to me personally

This feels like it could happen soon on the HR2x, as the parts are there, but then again I have felt that way for a long time. I wish we would see full functionality on either platform in delivering Directv content throughout my house before they start branching out in other areas. I also have a Popcornhour and have this same criticism. They keep adding non-core functionality like torrent clients and usenet clients, while they were having video issues (mostly resolved recently) and their UI is completely lacking.


----------



## Alan Gordon

BTW, I thought people might be interested in seeing pictures of the Comcast TiVo GUI...

EngadgetHD

~Alan


----------



## Doug Brott

xtc said:


> I don't see how they can charge an entirely different rate if you want the TiVo software service.
> 
> Right Now, I have one HR20 and two DirecTiVo's. I pay 1 DVR service fee on my bill. And that covers the DirecTV interface for my HR20 and the TiVo interface for my 2 TiVos. So if I'm paying one fee for multiple software/interfaces now, how are they gonna change that?


pretty simple .. they change their price sheets .. However, we don't know much about anything yet .. It's just been announced today (or yesterday for most of you ).


----------



## Doug Brott

Geekzilla said:


> 6) MRV which allows physically moving shows between dvr's, not just streaming


This is doubtful .. streaming is the likely solution, but we'll have to wait for actual implementation to know with more certainty.


----------



## Groundhog45

We used the R10 for years but my HR10 died after about 6 months (motherboard failure) and DirecTV sent me an HR20 (my second) and I've been very satisfied with the new systems since then. I guess I've been lucky in that I've had very few of the problems with the HR2x's that many folks have reported. It probably is good to have both systems available for the customers who want them. I will probably stick with the HRs unless the new Tivo proves to be much better.


----------



## HDinMA

raoul5788 said:


> This is going to make a lot of Tivo owners very happy!





elwaylite said:


> If you read the release from D*, i mean it spells it out.
> 
> New and current customers will get HR boxes, Tivos can be had as an "alternative" choice. I dont agree with this way, but I guess it is what it is.


I think it's the same way of thinking that produced the "AM21". Namely, a way to get some customers what they want, for a fee of course. I was able to get the AM21 thrown in with my "free" "upgrade" from the HR10-250 to an HR21-100 and the CSR even asked if I needed any more of them. LOL! I would have just used the ATSC tuner built into my TV, but this integrates nicely with the D* menu and allows for recording what I deem a superior quality transmission.

This is so surreal .. the tech was literally over on Tuesday to make the switch I had been avoiding for years ... the very day the D*/TiVo olive branch is FINALLY announced.. I was all set to bid adu to TiVo and it's wonderful animated TV thingy and then this. ARGH!

So far I *do* like some of the added features of the HR series DVRs and they have really cleaned up the UI and made it much FASTER since its inception. But as many here have noted, options like DLB are just so handy for avid sports fans.


----------



## HDinMA

Jeremy W said:


> Yeah, I'm sure having all of those HD channels for at least a year is just awful.


Not awful, but how many can one actually watch?

I was fine with mpeg2 TiVo without HD Disney et al. lol


----------



## HDinMA

Doug Brott said:


> That is a very accurate description .. If you'd have asked me last night, I would have said .. not going to happen .. today, obviously, things have changed.


It's like the Sirius/XM "merger" that was supposed to be consummated about two and half years ago and here we are today with two systems.

These things are so SLOW to come to fruition and we get stuck buying crap that's not really what we want in the meantime.


----------



## paulman182

xtc said:


> I don't see how they can charge an entirely different rate if you want the TiVo software service.
> 
> Right Now, I have one HR20 and two DirecTiVo's. I pay 1 DVR service fee on my bill. And that covers the DirecTV interface for my HR20 and the TiVo interface for my 2 TiVos. So if I'm paying one fee for multiple software/interfaces now, how are they gonna change that?


Even though the SEC documents state that DirecTV will be paying TiVo substantially more per customer, DirecTV could "eat" the increase and make it up by luring many TiVo fans into the subscriber base who otherwise would go elsewhere.

Not that they will--I expect there will be a fee added for the new DirecTV TiVo. But no one really knows for sure.


----------



## wingrider01

HDinMA said:


> Not awful, but how many can one actually watch?
> 
> I was fine with mpeg2 TiVo without HD Disney et al. lol


no kids huh? Wife tends to watcvh a number of them, I personnel record off of 6 of them during a normal week, wife probably the same amount, kids probably more.

can't get exicited over this, don;t care for the TIVO GUI at all (yes I still have HR10's and SD Directivos running). Would rather see a tight integration to a media center box over anything, woukd love to junk all my directv dvr's and go through the HTPC that I have running

Also suspect the new Directivo unit is going to more tightly locked down for hacks


----------



## rahlquist

Tom Robertson said:


> One of the questions I have is what DIRECTV innovations will be required of the new DIRECTiVos:
> 1) DIRECTV2PC support (including DLNA)?
> 2) GameLounge?
> 3) Interactive features for NFL ST and Mix Channels?
> 4) Widgets?
> 5) Media Share similar to the HR2x?
> 
> If all these need to be supported and therefore ported to the TiVo middleware, then 12 months could be a very tight fit.


Possibly, but with the presumption that similar linux kernel are involved and similar functional libraries (after all didnt D* have access to the Tivo patent library and code when building the HR series) then if everything goes right it could be easy as well. Cause lets face it;

1, and 5, are for the most part backend code providing the functionality with a little code to build the menus, so more backend and less gui. Also Tivo brings its own functions to the mix here and if push comes to shove and there isnt enough firmware space and assuming the HRx cant execute code from the hard drive, which implementation would you prefer?
2 appears to myself to be a module or executable running on top of the guide, quite possibly very little to port assuming the majority of function libraries stay the same
3 not sure but doesnt Tivo offer interactivity? this would likely be more of a backend change again to the content.
4 umm while I think widgets are neat, they could be the first casualty if flash space is needed

Just my thoughts/opinions.


----------



## wingrider01

xtc said:


> I don't see how they can charge an entirely different rate if you want the TiVo software service.
> 
> Right Now, I have one HR20 and two DirecTiVo's. I pay 1 DVR service fee on my bill. And that covers the DirecTV interface for my HR20 and the TiVo interface for my 2 TiVos. So if I'm paying one fee for multiple software/interfaces now, how are they gonna change that?


easy



Item code 000 directv dvr service 5.99


Item code 001 Tivo dvr service surcharge 5.00


Item code 002 Directv DVR Mirror/lease 4.99


Item code 003 Tivo DVR Mirror/lease surcharge 3.99

They know exactly what equipment is connected to your account, each has a unique item number, so the surcharges are easy to keep track of and add. Again the press release stated it would be an option to the Directv units and that the pricing structure will be published when the units come to market in the second half of 2009


----------



## rahlquist

Alan Gordon said:


> BTW, I thought people might be interested in seeing pictures of the Comcast TiVo GUI...
> 
> EngadgetHD


Thanks Alan, seems the Tivo interface for comcast closely mimics the Tivo and DirecTivo interfaces (not surprising). Although I slightly miss that interface the blasted font size is horrid, especially in the Season Pass Manager List. I'd hope font size would be a configuration option as well as the ability to turn off the help text but I doubt that will be the case.


----------



## gregjones

HDinMA said:


> It's like the Sirius/XM "merger" that was supposed to be consummated about two and half years ago and here we are today with two systems.
> 
> These things are so SLOW to come to fruition and we get stuck buying crap that's not really what we want in the meantime.


This is not a development problem, but a problem with the FCC not bothering to approve it for nearly 18 months. It is somewhat hard for a company to work as one group when they cannot get federal permission to be one group.


----------



## tpm1999

Directv simply needs to implement 2 easy features to prevent people from
Switching to TiVo.

1. A working "channels I get" ...which was promised at launch over 2 years ago.
2. DLB

If they don't implement them...I and many others will probably switch


----------



## mjbvideo

tpm1999 said:


> Directv simply needs to implement 2 easy features to prevent people from
> Switching to TiVo.
> 
> 1. A working "channels I get" ...which was promised at launch over 2 years ago.
> 2. DLB
> 
> If they don't implement them...I and many others will probably switch


and ...
3. A working device that doesn't require RBR every 24 to 36 hours.

Their software design engineers need to stop working on new features and focus on reliability. They also need to do a much better job testing the software before releasing it. Perhaps there is so much variation in the quality of the hardware where the software works on some units but not on others. So they may need to tighten up the component specifications for the hardware in order to reduce the variation.


----------



## Que

Alan Gordon said:


> BTW, I thought people might be interested in seeing pictures of the Comcast TiVo GUI...
> 
> EngadgetHD
> 
> ~Alan


Nice! Thanks for the link. Just change, Comcast to DirecTV and they are done.


----------



## MIMOTech

Another Change! Not going to do it again, no way. Every time they do that it cost me money. Why didn't they just stick with Tivo in the first place. Now it will be an extra cost item. UG!!!


----------



## Capmeister

tpm1999 said:


> Directv simply needs to implement 2 easy features to prevent people from
> Switching to TiVo.
> 
> 1. A working "channels I get" ...which was promised at launch over 2 years ago.
> 2. DLB
> 
> If they don't implement them...I and many others will probably switch


Maybe they'd like you to switch. They take back your DVR, and give it to a new sub, and give you a Tivo one, with a new 2 year contract.


----------



## tpm1999

Capmeister said:


> Maybe they'd like you to switch. They take back your DVR, and give it to a new sub, and give you a Tivo one, with a new 2 year contract.


Probably true....one of my Hr20 sold to me for full price was a refurb. Might as well gift these DLB less wonders back to D*


----------



## Richierich

I just hope that the processor is fast enough this time around and they don't get cheap about selecting one that is adequate.

DLB, DLB, DLB!!!! YEAH TIVO!!!

Thanks DIRECTV for getting back on track and giving us what we want!!!


----------



## loudo

I can't really get to excited about this. I hated the guide on my old HR10-250. I like the current format of the HR20 guide, much better. The duel buffer feature was nice though. The only thing I see coming out of this will be a price increase, as they will have to support 2 different DVR systems.

I originally didn't think it was a good idea when they switched from TIVO to their own system, when they came out with the HR20, but I have gotten used to it and like it better than the TIVO HR10.

Just my $.02.


----------



## tlrowley

tpm1999 said:


> Directv simply needs to implement 2 easy features to prevent people from
> Switching to TiVo.
> 
> 1. A working "channels I get" ...which was promised at launch over 2 years ago.
> 2. DLB
> 
> If they don't implement them...I and many others will probably switch





mjbvideo said:


> and ...
> 3. A working device that doesn't require RBR every 24 to 36 hours.
> 
> Their software design engineers need to stop working on new features and focus on reliability. They also need to do a much better job testing the software before releasing it. Perhaps there is so much variation in the quality of the hardware where the software works on some units but not on others. So they may need to tighten up the component specifications for the hardware in order to reduce the variation.


4. a working ToDo list that understands programs have been padded - missed a program last night that was on the todo list when I checked 'cos I forgot I padded the tennis.

5. a working History list that says something useful, not just "this showing is over"

Is is 2H2009 yet?


----------



## Notme53

*WOW! Is this a record for a thread or what??? Toss me in with those that are excited about getting DLB back!!! :righton: *


----------



## kiwiquest

Put me down for one that thinks this is a great move by Directv. I just wish that they had continued their relationship this whole time.


----------



## ebockelman

Tom Robertson said:


> One of the questions I have is what DIRECTV innovations will be required of the new DIRECTiVos:
> 1) DIRECTV2PC support (including DLNA)?
> 2) GameLounge?
> 3) Interactive features for NFL ST and Mix Channels?
> 4) Widgets?
> 5) Media Share similar to the HR2x?
> 
> If all these need to be supported and therefore ported to the TiVo middleware, then 12 months could be a very tight fit.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


They may not reinvent the wheel on these. Tivo created ways to do much of the same functionality long before some of the standards existed.

1. Viewing on PC can be done with Tivo-to-Go
2. HME-based games
3. This would be new
4. Again, can be done with HME
5. Already doable via TivoDesktop. (And it supports on-the-fly transcoding.)

So we will need to see if Tivo just brings their standards over, or tries to add some of Directv's implementation components on top. I would love to see the new unit take advantage of Directv's interactive capabilities on top of HME so that you get the best of both worlds.

I hope Directv doesn't do a lot of neutering of Tivo's feature set. I would assume some things will go, like Amazon Unbox, but I really want to see Tivo-To-Go (and Come-Back), MRV, and the HMO features.


----------



## djlong

Well, if I can't have the Windows Media Center-controlled HDPC20, I'll take this.

Either way, the clock is ticking on my Dish Network experience.


----------



## bakerfall

The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced it's going to be a software download for HR20s. They've proven it can be done with the inferior Comcast boxes, and integrated Comcast features into the GUI, so it makes the most sense. Can you imagine the nightmare that it would be dealing with, potentially, millions of D* HR2X users that want their TiVo back? 

From a cost, support and logistical standpoint the only thing that makes sense is an update for existing hardware. We also know that Tivo is getting more $$ per user with this contract, which could suggest the software solution, if they were getting no $$ from hardware then they would need to get more for software.

Give me tivo software, a peanut remote and mrv and I'll pay for it. I do not, however, want to pay to replace the three HR2X that I have purchased. I have a feeling I'm not alone.


----------



## nn8l

How do we know for sure the new units will have DLB? And yes.... I know past TiVo units have had it.


----------



## bakerfall

nn8l said:


> How do we know for sure the new units will have DLB? And yes.... I know past TiVo units have had it.


It's part of the Tivo software so they would have to actually remove it. Even the Comcastivo software has dual tuners. I'd say this is pretty much a given.


----------



## nn8l

I think it will be there too, but what if its a h/w issue with the HR2x units and they use the HR2x to run the TiVo s/w? Besides, I was post #666, so the devil made me do it.


----------



## bakerfall

nn8l said:


> I think it will be there too, but what if its a h/w issue with the HR2x units and they use the HR2x to run the TiVo s/w? Besides, I was post #666, so the devil made me do it.


It's not a HW issue. The HR has 2 tuners, it can use them both while recording, it just doesn't use it when not recording. I see no real reason tivo software couldn't use both.


----------



## harsh

mjbvideo said:


> and ...
> 3. A working device that doesn't require RBR every 24 to 36 hours.


Nah, the DIRECTV apologists have taken care of that by repeatedly pointing out that subsequent HR10 software releases have rendered the HD DirecTiVo a veritable cornucopia of bugs. Together with DIRECTV's HR2x offering, they've effectively lowered DVR reliability expectations.


----------



## harsh

nn8l said:


> How do we know for sure the new units will have DLB? And yes.... I know past TiVo units have had it.


As do all current non-DIRECTV TiVo units. DLB shows no sign of going away unless the HR2x hardware platform truly can't handle it.


----------



## spartanstew

Tom Robertson said:


> Guys, lets talk DBS, DIRECTV, and TiVo. Not each other or each other's intent.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom





harsh said:


> Nah, the DIRECTV apologists have taken care of that by repeatedly pointing out that subsequent HR10 software releases have rendered the HD DirecTiVo a veritable cornucopia of bugs. Together with DIRECTV's HR2x offering, they've effectively lowered DVR reliability expectations.


Can't you give it a rest for once day?


----------



## ATARI

Que said:


> Nice! Thanks for the link. Just change, Comcast to DirecTV and they are done.


Very nice.


----------



## ATARI

Notme53 said:


> *WOW! Is this a record for a thread or what??? Toss me in with those that are excited about getting DLB back!!! :righton: *


There are a lot of us


----------



## ATARI

OK, I'm all caught up again.

Please stop posting.


----------



## rook

> DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. On an annual basis, we will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded up-front by DIRECTV subject to limited future fee credits.


Fraking legal speak.... WTF does this mean?

I currently own a HDVR2 and a HR20, so If I upgrade the HDVR2 to the new HD Directivo, would I still just pay the "DVR" fee, or are they going to hit me with a $12.99 a month Tivo fee?

Rook


----------



## spartanstew

Nobody knows rook, and probably won't know until sometime next year.


----------



## DarinC

Ken S said:


> I've seen decisions bigger than this made because the wrong person gets ticked off. I wasn't kidding when I said it could have been something like someone's grandkid or kid seeing an adult title, a wife getting a blank recording, etc. that got this ball rolling very quickly.


Also, I'm a bit suspicious about the timing... interesting that it happened at a time when all the die-hard TiVo fans are essentially being forced off the TiVo platform for HD viewing. There were many hold-outs that just didn't want to give up their TiVos, and the impending shut-off of MPEG2 HD is forcing them. That HAD to increase the "bring back TiVo" complaints, and based on posts I've read here, some have even cancelled DirecTV because they weren't happy with the HR2x. There was a small disgruntled, but relatively quiet beast that was awakened several months ago when they started pushing customers to the HR2x. That, combined with new ownership and a desperate TiVo, and it's not as surprising as it may first seem.


----------



## richlife

rook said:


> Fraking legal speak.... WTF does this mean?
> 
> I currently own a HDVR2 and a HR20, so If I upgrade the HDVR2 to the new HD Directivo, would I still just pay the "DVR" fee, or are they going to hit me with a $12.99 a month Tivo fee?
> 
> Rook


I'm betting you'll pay a fee of at least $10 -- no thanks. And I'd be surprised if a new install of the Tivo HD DVR will be "free".


----------



## jungleland

question..


If you have multiple tivo's through out the house. Do you still only pay the monthly fee once, or is each fee per box?


----------



## spartanstew

jungleland, are you asking about current tivo's? Or current directivo's? Or the future HD directivo's that nobody knows about?


----------



## Tom Robertson

ebockelman said:


> They may not reinvent the wheel on these. Tivo created ways to do much of the same functionality long before some of the standards existed.
> 
> 1. Viewing on PC can be done with Tivo-to-Go
> 2. HME-based games
> 3. This would be new
> 4. Again, can be done with HME
> 5. Already doable via TivoDesktop. (And it supports on-the-fly transcoding.)
> 
> So we will need to see if Tivo just brings their standards over, or tries to add some of Directv's implementation components on top. I would love to see the new unit take advantage of Directv's interactive capabilities on top of HME so that you get the best of both worlds.
> 
> I hope Directv doesn't do a lot of neutering of Tivo's feature set. I would assume some things will go, like Amazon Unbox, but I really want to see Tivo-To-Go (and Come-Back), MRV, and the HMO features.


Since the two companies are happy again and DIRECTV will be paying higher fees, and the press release indicate more features this time, I'm expecting that provided TiVo can satisfy the content providers with security, all the TiVo features will be somehow available.

Perhaps that is what will take 12 months, securing the feature set.

Perhaps it will be integrating the DIRECTV features and securing the feature set.

We shall see what features will be and what features won't.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Chaos

Tom, you keep missing DoD on that list of must haves for the new tivo platform.


----------



## generalpatton78

I highly recommend people don't judge the tivo service based on the HR10-250 shortfalls. That box missed allot of updates tivo rolled out and it came out in a major transition period, Every other Tivo I have owned was faster and they are a top notch product. What we have to hope happens is a better back and forth with Directv on feature implementations and this time I'm sure the new hardware will be beefed up for more speed. The question is are we talking about a software download for this or buying a $500 bux. Personally I'll just be glad to have the 50SL limit gone by going with tivo and have clipping back. I really like the HR20 interactive featured but they don't make up for the two problems listed. I'll probably get a upgrade to SWM and run both boxes by each other.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Chaos said:


> Tom, you keep missing DoD on that list of must haves for the new tivo platform.


Right you are. Thanks, I did miss that one.

(I'd love to dodge and say, "but I knew Comcast's TiVos have it", yet I'd be fibbing. I truly hadn't thought of that yesterday.) 

Thanks again,
Tom


----------



## amorse2183

I've noticed in some online articles that TIVO announced and displayed a dvr with THX certification. Will the upcoming model for DirecTV also be THX certified? It really doesn't matter much as it seems to be more of a good housekeeping seal of approval than a real advantage, but I would still be tempted to pick one up if it will be certified.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think it's a little too early to start that discussion. I'm going to merge this into the current thread on the subject.


----------



## upgrade lately?

BlueSnake said:


> Nothin', but nothin' but good news.
> 
> Even the biggest supporters of the HR series will have to admit this is good news. I have been wondering all along that after 2 years how can Directv still be developing this piece of electronics in a world where a 2 year old piece of electronic equipment is usually considered obsolete.


I agree 100% with everything you said!


----------



## loudo

I hope they can still provide the great interactive coverage of events like they have done this year with the Olympics and Major Golf Tournaments. Their Olympics interactive pages were great.


----------



## GregM5

Wow, that is really great news!

I wonder if D* will honor the "lifetime" tivo subscription we paid for way back when... actually, we are still using one of the HR10-250 Tivo's we purchased so I guess they will.


----------



## Jhon69

rook said:


> Fraking legal speak.... WTF does this mean?
> 
> I currently own a HDVR2 and a HR20, so If I upgrade the HDVR2 to the new HD Directivo, would I still just pay the "DVR" fee, or are they going to hit me with a $12.99 a month Tivo fee?
> 
> Rook


The posted article said it would be higher price TBA.


----------



## PRT940

This is excellent news. I will definitely replace my HR20-700 boxes with TiVo boxes as soon as possible. I think the HR20 boxes are competent boxes, but I'll go back to TiVo just to get DLB.


----------



## NoOTA

My Dtivo still working just fine and my HR21-100 STILL has lip sync issues and audio skips etc. Wife STILL notices that the HR21 is NOT as easy for her to use as the DTivo and the HR21 pauses and locks up where out DTivo never did. I will DEFINITELY be getting one of those shiny new DtivoHD units next year. Even if it is more $$/month, it is worth it for us. (ease of use, DLB, AUDIO that just works)

NoOTA


----------



## Sixto

I wonder ...

1) Take the latest-and-greatest TiVo HD software (also used in the new TiVo HD XL announced today) and convert/port to run on the HR20/HR21/HR22 hardware? (port all TiVo features to DirecTV hardware)

or

2) Take the complete TiVo HD hardware/software and add the DirecTV tuner/SWM support? (replace cablecards with satellite tuners/SWM - this is a new box highly tuned)

And do they take code from the old HR10-250 to help ease the port? (Satellite tuner support, other? ...)

And do they take code from the HR2x to help ease the port? (DirecTV2PC/Interactive features, other?)

I wonder if option#1 can really get all the features or is #2 needed to do it right.


----------



## Mindhaz

Has anyone seen this:

http://www.betanews.com/article/TiVo_debuts_a_supersized_1_Terabyte_HD_DVR/1220461488

Is this BS or did Tivo just drop a bomb?


----------



## rahlquist

Sixto said:


> I wonder if option#1 can really get all the features or is #2 needed to do it right.


Sixto, I have the same questions myself. It would be wonderful if we knew but unfortunately I doubt we will even get a hint till its release time


----------



## gregjones

I love how so many people are convinced they will switch from their HR2x boxes without any idea of the features on the future Tivo. I wouldn't be that trusting with a DVD player I use once a month, let alone something I use everyday.

I loved my first Tivo (a Sony SD DirecTivo). It is to this day one of the best technology investments I ever made. I also love the HR2x that I use currently. If, at some point, I feel that the Tivo software is again the best choice for me, I will use it. That determination is, at best, a year away and very likely 18 months. 

As far as this being the demise of the HR2x software, that makes no sense whatsoever. A lot has changed since the HR10 was put on the market. DirecTV has a long-term, financially sound plan to consolidate its hardware and software platforms. This makes sense from every angle and there is no reason to argue with it.

The Tivo relationship before was not perfect. It was plagued by delays integrating DirecTV and Tivo features in the special build for these receivers. DirecTV fixed this by building their own development team. Why would they throw this away?

This is a simple matter of Tivo needing a broad audience for their software. DirecTV likely got an extremely favorable licensing arrangement. This provides a competitive advantage over Dish (who will soon be in contempt of court). This provides a retention strategy for those devoted to Tivo. And it requires no changes to the (by all objective financial measures) successful HR2x line.

Say what you want about the HR2x series, it is much more widely distributed and used than the HR10 ever was. It is bringing in money hand over fist for DirecTV in additional DVR fees, DOD PPV purchases, Movies Now purchases, etc.

This is the result of a company needing a deal and DirecTV finding it cheap enough to bite. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's great: not caring what it does, when it will show up, how much it will cost. It is a very different market than it was when the HR10-250 was released.


----------



## gregjones

Sixto said:


> I wonder ...
> 
> 1) Take the latest-and-greatest TiVo HD software (also used in the new TiVo HD XL announced today) and convert/port to run on the HR20/HR21/HR22 hardware? (port all TiVo features to DirecTV hardware)
> 
> or
> 
> 2) Take the complete TiVo HD hardware/software and add the DirecTV tuner/SWM support? (replace cablecards with satellite tuners/SWM - this is a new box highly tuned)
> 
> And do they take code from the old HR10-250 to help ease the port? (Satellite tuner support, other? ...)
> 
> And do they take code from the HR2x to help ease the port? (DirecTV2PC/Interactive features, other?)
> 
> I wonder if option#1 can really get all the features or is #2 needed to do it right.


As someone who designs software for a living, starting at #1 makes much more sense. There should be few significant hardware changes, most of which are at the driver level.


----------



## Mindhaz

Mindhaz said:


> Has anyone seen this:
> 
> http://www.betanews.com/article/TiVo_debuts_a_supersized_1_Terabyte_HD_DVR/1220461488
> 
> Is this BS or did Tivo just drop a bomb?


Upon further review... I noticed that this is just a regular CC device... shouldn't put TB, DirecTv, and Tivo in the same artice. Gets me too excited.


----------



## cowboys2002

It is too early to speculate when this device will come to market and at what pricepoint.

I am curious to find out how many of the "Tivo or bust" supporters are willing to actually pay money for the box and the services and not demand "free" or heavily discounted boxes.

I still have 3 SD Directivo's and 1 HD DVR HR21 that works fine. As I intergrate more HDTV's into my home, I will look at the best options available and go from there.


----------



## Doug Brott

PRT940 said:


> This is excellent news. I will definitely replace my HR20-700 boxes with TiVo boxes as soon as possible. I think the HR20 boxes are competent boxes, but I'll go back to TiVo just to get DLB.


What would you do if you didn't have to?


----------



## Sixto

gregjones said:


> As someone who designs software for a living, starting at #1 makes much more sense. There should be few significant hardware changes, most of which are at the driver level.


Yep, option #1 would be paradise for all concerned (if it performed well), while option #2 would be a customer sat (upgrade) nightmare.

Just curious whether #1 can provide the same end result as #2.

The key is a "total" port with every TiVo bell and whistle with the latest-and-greatest software build running on the bare bones HR2x hardware (if possible).


----------



## tpm1999

Doug Brott said:


> What would you do if you didn't have to?


Meaning that DLB is coming to the HR2x boxes? If so, many of us would stay. If not...


----------



## Sixto

Love to be a fly on the wall when the lead TiVo architect/guru is in the room, he/she understands all the technical details of a fully dissected HR20/HR21, and gives an opinion on how possible it is to take the current TiVo HD software and make it run on an HR20/HR21.

Man, I'd love to hear the full technical explanation. This is before any and all HR2x software features need to be added. Just the current TiVo software load on an HR2x.

Personally, I'm very comfortable with the HR2x, have four of them, work great, but very interested in this from a technical point-of-view.


----------



## NoOTA

gregjones said:


> ... It was plagued by delays integrating DirecTV and Tivo features in the special build for these receivers. DirecTV fixed this by building their own development team. Why would they throw this away?


Why, because it has been 2 years and the reliability of the HR is maybe JUST up to the Tivo level. Opps, I'm still having audio problems on some channels. With 2 years of development, and new versions every couple weeks, it costs DTV $$$. Plus in the beginning the sware was so bad (blank recordings, audio problems, etc.) CSR were just thowing reburbs at customers to get them to stop complaining. Again costs $$$$. (I'm on my second unit as the first had audio skips on Fox AI feed. New one did the same exact thing. DUH! it is software not hardware. I didn't press for a new one because I'm sure THAT one would probably do the same thing. So we just live with it and ***** about what a piece of %^T*&&* the HR is compared to the DTivo.)

I look forward to a DRV that just plain works again and for me that day will come with the DTivoHD unit next year.

NoOTA


----------



## bonscott87

Interesting how there are so many people all excited and yet in the poll about how much you would pay the majority would pay nothing extra. I think we all know there will be some sort of surcharge for Tivo ala Comcast so if DirecTV does indeed charge more for Tivo and most won't pay it then what happens then?


----------



## Doug Brott

Mindhaz said:


> Has anyone seen this:
> 
> http://www.betanews.com/article/TiVo_debuts_a_supersized_1_Terabyte_HD_DVR/1220461488
> 
> Is this BS or did Tivo just drop a bomb?





Mindhaz said:


> Upon further review... I noticed that this is just a regular CC device... shouldn't put TB, DirecTv, and Tivo in the same artice. Gets me too excited.


Yes, this is a standalone TiVo and has nothing to do with DIRECTV ..


----------



## Alan Gordon

amorse2183 said:


> I've noticed in some online articles that TIVO announced and displayed a dvr with THX certification. Will the upcoming model for DirecTV also be THX certified? It really doesn't matter much as it seems to be more of a good housekeeping seal of approval than a real advantage, but I would still be tempted to pick one up if it will be certified.


The TiVo Series 3 (HD DVR) is THX as well. While I admit that the TiVo Series 3 is faster than my HR10-250 (heck, faster than my HR20 as well), I'm really not sure there is much of an advantage in the THX seal in this case... and one MAJOR downside: PRICE!!

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

tpm1999 said:


> Directv simply needs to implement 2 easy features to prevent people from Switching to TiVo.
> 
> 1. A working "channels I get" ...which was promised at launch over 2 years ago.
> 2. DLB
> 
> If they don't implement them...I and many others will probably switch


I think you might want to change "prevent people" to "prevent *some* people". While I wouldn't mind having it back, I've rarely missed DLB, and while I disagree with the lack of use of CIG in regard to searches, these aren't really reasons why I would be interested in switching back to TiVo.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> Interesting how there are so many people all excited and yet in the poll about how much you would pay the majority would pay nothing extra. I think we all know there will be some sort of surcharge for Tivo ala Comcast so if DirecTV does indeed charge more for Tivo and most won't pay it then what happens then?


Personal opinion: If the current TiVo software can a) really be ported to an HR20 that was installed in 2006, and b) it performs as well (or better) then a regular TiVo HD or TiVo HD XL bought today, and c) they figure out a way to port or use existing TiVo code to gain the benefit of all of the latest-and-greatest features from the existing HR2x software load (Interactive features, DOD, Media Share, Game Lounge) ... then I'd guess that there will be one DirecTV software platform in 3-4 years ...

Just an opinion. And you need a), b), and c). If not, then just as the press release states, there may be a "primary" platform, and TiVo is just another option.


----------



## Doug Brott

NoOTA said:


> ... With 2 years of development, and new versions every couple weeks ...


Let's at least get the facts straight .. 
The most recent National Release was started over 6 weeks ago as of this post.

*Year One: 23 Firmware Releases*

09/01/2006 - 0x0be
09/16/2006 - 0x0cc
09/26/2006 - 0x0d1
10/03/2006 - 0x0d8
10/10/2006 - 0x0dc
10/19/2006 - 0x0e3
11/07/2006 - 0x0eb
11/13/2006 - 0x0ef
11/20/2006 - 0x0f6
11/22/2006 - 0x0fa
12/05/2006 - 0x104
12/13/2006 - 0x108
12/18/2006 - 0x10b
01/13/2007 - 0x119
01/19/2007 - 0x11b
02/01/2007 - 0x120
02/10/2007 - 0x12a
02/28/2007 - 0x134
03/20/2007 - 0x13e
03/29/2007 - 0x145
05/16/2007 - 0x15c
06/08/2007 - 0x168
07/18/2007 - 0x17e
*Year Two: 10 Firmware Releases*

08/21/2007 - 0x18a
10/23/2007 - 0x1b4
11/07/2007 - 0x1be
01/09/2008 - 0x1ea
02/12/2008 - 0x1fe
04/22/2008 - 0x22b
05/07/2008 - 0x22d
06/12/2008 - 0x235
07/01/2008 - 0x251
07/16/2008 - 0x254/0x255


----------



## bakerfall

Sixto said:


> Love to be a fly on the wall when the lead TiVo architect/guru is in the room, he/she understands all the technical details of a fully dissected HR20/HR21, and gives an opinion on how possible it is to take the current TiVo HD software and make it run on an HR20/HR21.
> 
> Man, I'd love to hear the full technical explanation. This is before any and all HR2x software features need to be added. Just the current TiVo software load on an HR2x.
> 
> Personally, I'm very comfortable with the HR2x, have four of them, work great, but very interested in this from a technical point-of-view.


I would say it's unlikely that they will take the Tivo HD software and port it exactly. Even if the features are all there, DirecTV will want VOD and other D* features integrated. I think it's much more likely that we will get a somewhat modified Tivo OS, maybe more akin to the old DirecTivos then the new ComcasTivos in regards to amount of changes, but modified none the less.

From a hardware standpoint, I doubt it will matter. Yes, the HR2X might be using different tuners, decoders, etc that will require different drivers (as previously mentioned), but it's still just tuners, decoders, hard drives, network cards, etc. The mere fact that the HR2X can do what it's doing now, shows that it's hardware is capable. Any bugs and issues with the box are a result of the D* OS and wouldn't translate to a completely different OS because of the hardware.


----------



## Lee L

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I just have this strange, sneaking suspicion Earl will have the first of these...and will maybe be on the development team...it also makes alot of sense this would be the case based on his background to date.


I keep seeing people post this. Not sure why it would be the case since it has been confirmed that Earl works at DirecTV and not TiVo who will be doing this and running it through their own longstanding beta program I am sure. If people want to somehow get in on a potential beta, they should update their beta program at www.tivo.com just like every other TiVo beta ever.



RunnerFL said:


> Ahhh, but you assume to know how I watch TV.
> 
> The only thing I watch live is NASCAR and NFL, everything else is a recording. There are a number of ways to get around seeing something you don't want to see.
> 
> My point, which no one seemed to get, is that I shouldn't have to stop watching a recording to setup a Series Link/Season Pass that I want. With Picture in Guide, Picture in List, whatever you want to call it, I don't have to!


If you actually read my post you will see I assumed nothing and pointed out that asimple place in the config menu to allow Picture in guide to be on or off would satisfy both of us. Instead, you seem to be in favor of only one of us being happy.



rahlquist said:


> I have never missed a recording, had a blank recording, though caller id has shown odd chars and the screen saver has come on while doing media share. Show stoppers, not at all.


If this is the case, you are truly lucky and I am very happy for you, but even DirecTV has acknowleged several issues with this unit including the missed recordings and blank recordings, so they are definitely real and affect a non-trivial number of people.


----------



## rahlquist

bakerfall said:


> From a hardware standpoint, I doubt it will matter.


On the hardware I will agree with one caveat and thats if RAM is as fast and as much as in the Series 3 then I would say its all cake. If the HR has significantly less then the portage may be a little hairier but in the end Tivo would benefit from tigher code too.


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> What would you do if you didn't have to?


AW Doug! You teaser you! :sure:   :grin:


----------



## bakerfall

rahlquist said:


> On the hardware I will agree with one caveat and thats if RAM is as fast and as much as in the Series 3 then I would say its all cake. If the HR has significantly less then the portage may be a little hairier but in the end Tivo would benefit from tigher code too.


Agreed. It really can't be a straight port, though. Much of the under the hood stuff will be completely different with a sat box then a cable one.


----------



## rahlquist

Lee L said:


> I keep seeing people post this. Not sure why it would be the case since it has been confirmed that Earl works at DirecTV and not TiVo who will be doing this and running it through their own longstanding beta program


Perhaps Tivo will work it that way, perhaps beta will be through CE? Too soo to tell? but if its getting ported to the HR series I cant see why it wouldn't eventually once stable make it to CE, prior to going national. Keep in mind the CE program has apparently been very much a success for D* and it came after the parting of the ways with Tivo, so perhaps Tivo will want to benefit from the new testbed as well.



> If this is the case, you are truly lucky and I am very happy for you, but even DirecTV has acknowleged several issues with this unit including the missed recordings and blank recordings, so they are definitely real and affect a non-trivial number of people.


Agreed, never claimed to be the norm although I have seen at least one poster stabilize their HR by installing a UPS and others stabilize by taking their DVR off LAN's. So maybe not 100% of the issues are D* issues, or perhaps the HR need more bulletproofing, all depends on the POV.


----------



## rahlquist

Doug Brott said:


> What would you do if you didn't have to?


Would have to figure out how the heck to buy devs at both Tivo and D* beers? A group Paypal account maybe?


----------



## Jhon69

bonscott87 said:


> Interesting how there are so many people all excited and yet in the poll about how much you would pay the majority would pay nothing extra. I think we all know there will be some sort of surcharge for Tivo ala Comcast so if DirecTV does indeed charge more for Tivo and most won't pay it then what happens then?


I believe the idea here is to give DirecTV subscribers a choice which is always a good thing. And for DirecTV not to put all their DVR eggs in one basket like before.


----------



## BlueSnake

This was interesting news yesterday. I just can't believe that something at least a year away and with very few, if any details, is still being talked about this much today.


----------



## bakerfall

BlueSnake said:


> This was interesting news yesterday. I just can't believe that something at least a year away and with very few, if any details, is still being talked about this much today.


You must be new here


----------



## LlamaLarry

Hey, where the heck was I that I missed this yesterday?  Just when I was looking into ditching the HR10's and throwing away all the serial cables I built. 

Where do I sign up for the beta of the new units and the HR2* testing?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> I wonder ...
> 
> 1) Take the latest-and-greatest TiVo HD software (also used in the new TiVo HD XL announced today) and convert/port to run on the HR20/HR21/HR22 hardware? (port all TiVo features to DirecTV hardware)
> 
> or
> 
> 2) Take the complete TiVo HD hardware/software and add the DirecTV tuner/SWM support? (replace cablecards with satellite tuners/SWM - this is a new box highly tuned)
> 
> And do they take code from the old HR10-250 to help ease the port? (Satellite tuner support, other? ...)
> 
> And do they take code from the HR2x to help ease the port? (DirecTV2PC/Interactive features, other?)
> 
> I wonder if option#1 can really get all the features or is #2 needed to do it right.


I've said this before, and others have commented on it, but I still think DirecTV needs to tell TiVo, we're going with OUR DVRs, but if you want to work with us, you can create your own boxes, sell them, and provide support for them.

That's just my opinion, nothing to get your panties in a bunch over...

~Alan


----------



## dlt4

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I'm a big time HR20 fan, but TiVo rocks, and I will definitely switch back.


Ditto!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

LlamaLarry said:


> Hey, where the heck was I that I missed this yesterday?  Just when I was looking into ditching the HR10's and throwing away all the serial cables I built.
> 
> Where do I sign up for the beta of the new units and the HR2* testing?


Yesterday the line for signing up was already around the block. Today it's passed the restaurant called "Eats" at the edge of town.

Remember to bring your camping gear...the line will be in place for a very long time. (like 10-12 months...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## tiger2005

Jhon69 said:


> I believe the idea here is to give DirecTV subscribers a choice which is always a good thing. And for DirecTV not to put all their DVR eggs in one basket like before.


Plus, I'm sure TiVo's demands lessened CONSIDERABLY because a LARGE majority of their customers came from DirecTV and I'm sure a lot were disappearing as they moved up to HD. All-in-all its a good move for both sides and its a huge win for customers because they now have a choice. My only concerns are pricing and how the pricing will be different among equipment and the subscription fees.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> What would you do if you didn't have to?


If the HR2x had no stability issues and DLB, I'd probably opt for it over a device that'll take 2 years to reach maturity after it's intro.


----------



## Alan Gordon

rahlquist said:


> Thanks Alan, seems the Tivo interface for comcast closely mimics the Tivo and DirecTivo interfaces (not surprising). Although I slightly miss that interface the blasted font size is horrid, especially in the Season Pass Manager List. I'd hope font size would be a configuration option as well as the ability to turn off the help text but I doubt that will be the case.





Que said:


> Nice! Thanks for the link. Just change, Comcast to DirecTV and they are done.


I'm not sure you're both seeing what I'm seeing?

The links I posted showed a VERY (IMO) MODIFIED TiVo GUI.

For one thing, the general GUI showed a less "cutesy" (to use a term bandied about for TiVo's GUI) look. For another, did anybody notice the PIG, not to mention PIJAE (Picture In Just About Everything)? How about the look of the guide? It showed a look different from both the DirecTV style TiVo guide (and not just the PIG) and the Grid style guide on TiVo Stand-Alones? Did you check out the TiVo "peanut" remote from Comcast? How about those additional buttons?

~Alan


----------



## bakerfall

Alan Gordon said:


> I've said this before, and others have commented on it, but I still think DirecTV needs to tell TiVo, we're going with OUR DVRs, but if you want to work with us, you can create your own boxes, sell them, and provide support for them.
> 
> That's just my opinion, nothing to get your panties in a bunch over...
> 
> ~Alan


I just don't see it. DirecTV has spent quite a bit of effort bringing all the hardware in house and I think they are going to stick with that model. Regardless, hasn't that already been confirmed? It could be a new D* box, and not the HR-2X, I just think that would be a big mistake and completely unnecessary.


----------



## Alan Gordon

bakerfall said:


> I just don't see it. DirecTV has spent quite a bit of effort bringing all the hardware in house and I think they are going to stick with that model.


It depends on how you look at it. DirecTV has MULTIPLE manufacturers for their boxes. The only thing DirecTV did was bring their software/firmware "in house" and brand all the boxes DirecTV. If TiVo is doing the software for this new model, the only thing "in house" about it would be the brand name, and I don't see why the box couldn't be called a "DirecTV" STB ala the HR10-250?



bakerfall said:


> Regardless, hasn't that already been confirmed?


As I said, it's just my opinion, so confirmation doesn't really matter one way or the other. 

~Alan


----------



## DarinC

bonscott87 said:


> Interesting how there are so many people all excited and yet in the poll about how much you would pay the majority would pay nothing extra.


Interesting, I look at that poll and walk away with a completely different perspective. I see that over 1/3 would pay _extra_, just to have TiVo on their DVR. To me, that's fairly decent penetration. Is that any worse than most other services they offer? Look at how many people clamor to get more HBO channels. If it was announced that DirecTV would be offering all the other HBO channels, then a poll was started asking how much additional (over the current HBO fee) they'd pay to get those channels, do you think it'd be over 1/3? Do things like Sunday Ticket, Extra Innings, etc., get that kind of penetration?

You can easily make the argument that DirecTV is already charging extra for DVR service, and we shouldn't have to pay an _additional _fee to get those features. Many have already made that argument, and voted that they wouldn't pay any premium. Yet despite that valid argument, over 1/3 would pay extra to get "TiVo" (whatever that actually means) vs. the "standard" DVR service they currently have. To me, that seems fairly significant.


----------



## rahlquist

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm not sure you're both seeing what I'm seeing?
> 
> The links I posted showed a VERY (IMO) MODIFIED TiVo GUI.


Oh its differnet from my DirecTivo no doubt about it and yes I did note the PIG. The image I was talking about was http://www.engadgethd.com/photos/comcast-tivo-in-pictures/609725/ To me thats a freakin horrid waste of screen. Its time the GUI folks realize, we arent all on 19" sets. Proportional screens should be possible on HD DVR.


----------



## EricRobins

I had multiple TiVo-branded IRDs and swapped them all for HR2x units in the past year. While I agree that TiVo units are significantly superior than many other DVRs (I have also used Comcast and TWC units), other than a few software capabilities, I really see little advantage to a TiVo-branded D* DVR over the HR2x.

Can we list the additional features we would want out of a TiVo-branded unit _*that is not already in the works for the HR2x???*_

What I am afraid of is that D* disables certain features of the HR2x, e.g., DoD, 30 sec skip, MediaShare, and tells us that we have to "upgrade" to the TiVo-branded unit *for an extra "significant" fee* to access these features.

At the end of the day, I think all of you that are hell-bent on being one of the first users of the new unit are really not thinking. How can you know (1) the feature set, (2) the pricing or (3) what the HR2x will have at that time?

I really see no advantage for D* in this, unless of course, even after paying TiVo the "significant" fees, D* gets to keep a "significant" portion to themselves, i.e., more than enough to offset the additional support issues.


----------



## adam1115

Sixto said:


> I've not touched a TiVo in a long time ... was a TiVo addict many moons ago ...
> 
> After all the hype today, decided to play around with a Series3 for about 30 minutes a little while ago ...
> 
> Wow ... was weird ... the HR2x is actually a great box!
> 
> With the Series3 ...
> 
> Was very eery to have no sound and picture when looking thru the options and playlist ... had the Yankee game on in the background and couldn't wait to clear the screen to hear the game.
> 
> The remote felt weird ... I'm now actually accustomed to the DirecTV remote  ... geez, who would have ever thought ...
> 
> The menu's were somewhat slow ...
> 
> The guide looked old ... now so used to the DirecTV guide ...
> 
> Will be interesting in a year ...
> 
> The grass may not always be greener on the other side ...


There are the fluff features... Youtube, rhapsody, etc.

The absolute biggest thing that prevented me from going to the HR2x is parental controls. KidZone is absolutely bulletproof. I can hand my kids the remote and not worry one bit.



RobertE said:


> This software and/or hardware, won't see the light of day for 9-15 months. Keep in mind how often does a company that deals with software/hardware on this level actually keep those targets? How about the Tivo Series 3?


Perfect timing for my Series 3 3 year prepaid to expire...



AZ_Engineer said:


> All I can say is "I AM SOOOOO GLAD I WAITED". I've been a very satisfied HR10-250 user since they came out. I have two and we are total Tivo adicts. The only thing that will keep me from these units is if FIOS comes to Phx first...joe


Glad you waited? Likely the only reason this is coming to light is because of the people who DIDN'T wait. Those of use who were long time DirecTV subs and cancelled, telling them we wanted our TiVo's and were switching to cable.

If everyone just took their HR2x quietly or kept using their HR10, they would never have incentive to do this.


----------



## Hemi

Jeremy W said:


> Fine, so you pause the recording while you're in the guide. Once you're done, exit out of the guide and hit play, and you're back where you left off. On the Tivo, you have to exit out of the guide, go back into the playlist, and then play your recording. It's not as seamless, and there are many times where I'd like to just have the recording continue on while I'm in the guide doing whatever I need to do. Tivo won't let me do that.


Sorry for the delay but with TiVo there is a much faster way to accomplish your goal. From a recording, hit the Guide button, that pauses the recording and brings you to live TV and the Guide. When you are done with the Guide, hit the back (left) arrow and it takes you to the recording coverscreen, hit play and it takes you to where you left off in the recording.

Dan


----------



## Doug Brott

EricRobins said:


> What I am afraid of is that D* disables certain features of the HR2x, e.g., DoD, 30 sec skip, MediaShare, and tells us that we have to "upgrade" to the TiVo-branded unit *for an extra "significant" fee* to access these features.


No need to be afraid ..


----------



## Bushwacr

Alan Gordon said:


> I've said this before, and others have commented on it, but I still think DirecTV needs to tell TiVo, we're going with OUR DVRs, but if you want to work with us, you can create your own boxes, sell them, and provide support for them.
> 
> ~Alan


This is what I'm hoping for ..... a new Tivo box that can access D* signals and be supported by Tivo. If nothing else I'd be able to transfer my lifetime onto it. That would be sweet.


----------



## Bushwacr

EricRobins said:


> I really see no advantage for D* in this, unless of course, even after paying TiVo the "significant" fees, D* gets to keep a "significant" portion to themselves, i.e., more than enough to offset the additional support issues.


As I see it, it takes a piece out of cable subs who subscribe just to get to use a Tivo box be it the TivoHD or S3. There's a very unhappy group who would love to leave the cable companies and the CC and SDV debacle behind and get D* programming with Tivo DVR.

I don't see where D* has support issues if Tivo sells the box.


----------



## Alan Gordon

rahlquist said:


> Oh its differnet from my DirecTivo no doubt about it and yes I did note the PIG. The image I was talking about was http://www.engadgethd.com/photos/comcast-tivo-in-pictures/609725/ To me thats a freakin horrid waste of screen. Its time the GUI folks realize, we arent all on 19" sets. Proportional screens should be possible on HD DVR.


Yeah, I understood your point on the wasted screen space. As someone who works in graphic design, I see lots of wasted space on both the TiVo GUI and DirecTV+ GUI... which is not to say that the GUI should be CRAMMED full of information, or the fonts be too small for someone on a 19" or smaller TV, but rather making better use of the screen space they have. That being said, neither one rarely bothers me.

I was mainly commenting on your first comment (that the GUI closely mimics the TiVo and DirecTiVo interfaces), as I disagreed.... which leads me to the conclusion (since TiVo RARELY makes changes to their GUI) that some choices may have been made due to hardware limitations, but others (PIG) may have been made due to Comcast's insistance, and given that DirecTV is in a seat of power (ala Comcast) compared to TiVo, I see no reason why DirecTV couldn't get TiVo to alter CERTAIN SHARED GUI functions to more closely resemble DirecTV's current GUI, or their new one coming out next year... to keep something of the "consistency" between GUIs people keep referring to here.



adam1115 said:


> Perfect timing for my Series 3 3 year prepaid to expire...


My 3 year prepaid expires 3Q of next year. We'll see! 

~Alan


----------



## Syzygy

Bushwacr said:


> This is what I'm hoping for ..... a new Tivo box that can access D* signals and be supported by Tivo. If nothing else I'd be able to transfer my lifetime onto it. That would be sweet.


I doubt that you'd be able to transfer your lifetime onto it.

When I ordered my HR10-250 for $900 in April 2004 (but didn't receive it until August) I was not able to transfer my SA TiVo's lifetime subscription (grandfathered since August 1999) to the HR10. I still have the lifetime subscription, though, so I really hope you're right.


----------



## BruceS

Jeremy W said:


> I think that it is completely fair to take into account 10 years of history related to a company's UI philosophy. Especially when their current products still hold on to it. Tivo has kept so many things exactly the same since the beginning, why is it wrong to assume that these things won't change in the next year? As far as I'm concerned, it's foolish to believe that they will.


Why is it supposed to be so bad for Tivo to maintain a consistent interface across all their receivers and so wonderful for DirecTV to be trying to implement a consistent interface over all their receivers.


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> Yesterday the line for signing up was already around the block. Today it's passed the restaurant called "Eats" at the edge of town.
> 
> Remember to bring your camping gear...the line will be in place for a very long time. (like 10-12 months...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Will porta potties be provided, or should I pack some Depends?


----------



## Bushwacr

Syzygy said:


> I doubt that you'd be able to transfer your lifetime onto it.
> 
> When I ordered my HR10-250 for $900 in April 2004 (but didn't receive it until August) I was not able to transfer my SA TiVo's lifetime subscription (grandfathered since August 1999) to the HR10. I still have the lifetime subscription, though, so I really hope you're right.


That's why I'm hoping for a Tivo SA box similar to the TivoHD; then You can transfer the 1999 lifetime; I have one of those too.


----------



## hdthebest

Will you need a new Box or will there be a softward upgrade on our current boxes?


----------



## Tom Robertson

ATARI said:


> Will porta potties be provided, or should I pack some Depends?


Given the surprise of this announcement, I'd suggest the Depends for no. The feature set of the line is just as set as the feature set of the DIRECTV-TiVo


----------



## spartanstew

hdthebest said:


> Will you need a new Box or will there be a softward upgrade on our current boxes?


The answers you seek are within this thread.


----------



## Tom Robertson

spartanstew said:


> The answers you seek are within this thread.


Now that is mean.  There are no answers in this thread cuz no one knows those answers this far out. Not even DIRECTV. (I asked.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jjcaudle

bgottschalk said:


> _"DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services."_
> 
> I certainly hope this is true.
> 
> I would hate to see the whole CE process and HR series just end and have us just handed a TIVO and told - here's what you get - it is what it is. What does this do to all the development happening on the HR series now and for the next 12 months?
> 
> Not sure what to really think of this news.


As a TivoHd and Series 3 owner, I would think most Directv subscribers would look forward to a Tivo software option, and if you are lucky, they will replace those counterintuitive remotes with a Tivo Style Remote like comcast has done on their Motorola boxes with Tivo Software. If we get the tuning resolver I don't thin there is any way I would go back to D*. Its nice not to lose tv for 24-48 hours in a snowstorm.


----------



## generalpatton78

I think some of us need to remember this doesn't need to be a fight over what is *better* because we will have both options. The HR2X units have came along way but the SL50 limit and lack of clipping (where a program runs to 8:01pm and the clipping feature lets you to still record a show that starts at 8:00pm) is big enough for me to pick up or download Tivo. I know my family will be happy about the news. BTW I think Tivo is actually getting paid more this time around.


----------



## lguvenoz

I will be very curious to hear what rumors start up come early next year. I'm sure there will be a lot of them....


----------



## bwaldron

generalpatton78 said:


> I think some of us need to remember this doesn't need to be a fight over what is *better* because we will have both options.


Absolutely right.


----------



## dbmaven

lguvenoz said:


> I will be very curious to hear what rumors start up come early next year. I'm sure there will be a lot of them....


Next YEAR?? Roflmao!! :lol: I doubt we'll have to wait that long....

For this to make any sense, there has to be something in it for both TiVO and DirecTV. Both have done/have access to significant market research studies, no doubt. TiVO *needs* DirecTV as a client - they've been bleeding since DirecTV walked away - a trickle at first, which turned into a flood. Frankly, I'm surprised it will take them a year to get this to market - because it may well be too late.

DirecTV gets lots more out of this arrangement. They get to woo back people who would never have left if they'd continued to offer a TiVO based alternative. They get to KEEP a number of subs who like TiVOs and are frustrated with HR2x's. All of that means increased/continued revenue that would otherwise be inaccessible/lost.

There are no doubt technical 'sharing' advantages to this for both companies.

Probably a win/win for both companies - and consumer choice - that's always a great thing.


----------



## rahlquist

lguvenoz said:


> I will be very curious to hear what rumors start up come early next year. I'm sure there will be a lot of them....


Just make sure you share them LOL so we can all get a chuckle and Doug will have something to chase!


----------



## celticpride

I predict that directv will add DLB to the hr 200s long before the tivo hd box is released!


----------



## CUDAHY

I guess there'll be nothing but speculation from now till next spring. How soon will they allow people to sign up ahead of time for the initial release? I expect to be paying an extra $5 a month even though I'm a lifetime Tivo subscriber; no problem. 
I also expect to send the DirectvHDR I got free in January back in exchange plus maybe $100. I just hope my 10-250 that I kept connected when I got the DirectvHD hold out another year.


----------



## Jeremy W

BruceS said:


> Why is it supposed to be so bad for Tivo to maintain a consistent interface across all their receivers and so wonderful for DirecTV to be trying to implement a consistent interface over all their receivers.


I have no problem with Tivo trying to be consistent, I just think that they are consistantly bad.


----------



## DarinC

Jeremy W said:


> I have no problem with Tivo trying to be consistent, I just think that they are consistantly bad.


You can say what you want about the GUI design... at least they record your shows consistently.


----------



## loudo

DarinC said:


> You can say what you want about the GUI design... at least they record your shows consistently.


I had more problems with recordings, when I had my HR10-250s, than I have had with my HR20s running CEs.


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> If it was announced that DirecTV would be offering all the other HBO channels, then a poll was started asking how much additional (over the current HBO fee) they'd pay to get those channels, do you think it'd be over 1/3?


HBO and Cinemax are bad examples because both are already relatively poor values with respect to dollars per channel as compared with industry norms. The DIRECTV DVR Service Fee is well below industry norms now and increasing the fee would bring it more in line.

From the TiVo SEC filing, it is clear that DIRECTV is going to have to pay considerably more to TiVo going forward. It isn't a matter of choice. [strike]In fact, I might go as far as to suggest that existing DirecTiVo customers may be subject to the new TiVo DVR fee schedule.[/strike]

The filing also indicates that DIRECTV will be required to spend some of their advertising time on promoting the DirecTiVo brand so it will cost them there too.


----------



## Dusty

harsh said:


> HBO and Cinemax are bad examples because both are already relatively poor values with respect to dollars per channel as compared with industry norms. The DIRECTV DVR Service Fee is well below industry norms now and increasing the fee would bring it more in line.
> 
> From the TiVo SEC filing, it is clear that DIRECTV is going to have to pay considerably more to TiVo going forward. It isn't a matter of choice. In fact, I might go as far as to suggest that existing DirecTiVo customers may be subject to the new TiVo DVR fee schedule.
> 
> The filing also indicates that DIRECTV will be required to spend some of their advertising time on promoting the DirecTiVo brand so it will cost them there too.


Actually, "considerably more" is not that horrible. They used to pay $1 per customer (not per DVR). That is going up to $1.50. I don't necessarily think D* has to raise the price for that amount. Not that they won't.


----------



## Dusty

dbmaven said:


> Next YEAR?? Roflmao!! :lol: I doubt we'll have to wait that long....
> 
> For this to make any sense, there has to be something in it for both TiVO and DirecTV. Both have done/have access to significant market research studies, no doubt. TiVO *needs* DirecTV as a client - they've been bleeding since DirecTV walked away - a trickle at first, which turned into a flood. Frankly, I'm surprised it will take them a year to get this to market - because it may well be too late.
> 
> DirecTV gets lots more out of this arrangement. They get to woo back people who would never have left if they'd continued to offer a TiVO based alternative. They get to KEEP a number of subs who like TiVOs and are frustrated with HR2x's. All of that means increased/continued revenue that would otherwise be inaccessible/lost.
> 
> There are no doubt technical 'sharing' advantages to this for both companies.
> 
> Probably a win/win for both companies - and consumer choice - that's always a great thing.


I think you miss what D* gets out of this. Tivo agreed not to challenge D*'s DVR patent like they did Dish's. I know how Tivo* fans think. I was one, too. But I think you overestimate Tivo's drawing power. I don't think Tivo is as important as more HD channels to D*.

I will be happy to switch to Tivo next year if there is no significant cost increase. I am not unhappy with HR2x, except the lack of MRV.


----------



## harsh

celticpride said:


> I predict that directv will add DLB to the hr 200s long before the tivo hd box is released!


Given DIRECTV's hemming and hawing about DLB's interference with their plans for the HR2x, I predict that you're wrong.

The pressure to add the features that TiVo manages to implement that DIRECTV hasn't already figured out will be crushing. Then again, they'll probably cop to protecting their premium service by not implementing it in the DIRECTV software.

This deal with either advance the technology through competition or one or the other will wither; TiVo due to price or DIRECTV due to failure to robustly implement important DVR features. Given that the TiVo DVR feature set is substantially a superset of the DIRECTV feature set, I wouldn't bet against TiVo.


----------



## Bergthold

This is going to be awesome!


----------



## harsh

Dusty said:


> Actually, "considerably more" is not that horrible. They used to pay $1 per customer (not per DVR). That is going up to $1.50.


Evidence?

The sense I get from their use of the term "substantial" is a number much higher than 50% more.


----------



## Bushwacr

Dusty said:


> I think you miss what D* gets out of this. Tivo agreed not to challenge D*'s DVR patent like they did Dish's. I know how Tivo* fans think. I was one, too. But I think you overestimate Tivo's drawing power. I don't think Tivo is as important as more HD channels to D*.
> 
> .. snipped


The real question is what's important to customers. I think the "We have a gazillion HD channels and you don't Nyah nyah" competition has run its course. Everyone has lots of HD now.

Now the competition is simple elegant delivery in the consumer household and beyond.

Tivo has a good rep and can be useful to D* certainly with potential cable defectors who want Tivo (and there are lots). D* has content and NO CCs and NO SDV which is good for Tivo.

This should be a win/win. I hope this is the oft rumored S4.


----------



## jazzyd971fm

harsh said:


> Evidence?
> 
> Saw this in USA Today this morning http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm


----------



## houskamp

has directv ever charged less than 4.99 for something?


----------



## rahlquist

jazzyd971fm said:


> harsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence?
> 
> Saw this in USA Today this morning http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Wow good find!
Click to expand...


----------



## Dusty

harsh said:


> Evidence?
> 
> The sense I get from their use of the term "substantial" is a number much higher than 50% more.


It is on USA Today, the paper copy I am holding now at the waiting room of the Honda dealership.

It's not my computer. I can't post a link.


----------



## Sixto

jazzyd971fm said:


> harsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence?
> 
> Saw this in USA Today this morning http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> Two key peices of info in that link. 54% of 3.6M DVR's are still with DirecTV. That's 2M TiVo DirecTV DVR's still running. Big number (if true).
> 
> And the $1.50 per subscriber number which seems to be a guesstimate.
Click to expand...


----------



## harsh

Dusty said:


> But I think you overestimate Tivo's drawing power. I don't think Tivo is as important as more HD channels to D*.


Apparently D* thinks they may have underestimated TiVo's drawing power. They could have continued under the current agreement until 2010 but they chose to extend half way through the current contract until 2015 with an option to 2018. Surely this wasn't to protect current DirecTiVo users (although it may be more of an admission to using TiVo patented technology).


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> I have no problem with Tivo trying to be consistent, I just think that they are consistantly bad.





DarinC said:


> You can say what you want about the GUI design... at least they record your shows consistently.


I personally find TiVo's GUI superior to the DirecTV+ GUI, but outside of a CE from last year (I think it was last year), I don't believe I've ever had the HR20 not record my shows consistently. Maybe I'm just lucky...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> And the $1.50 per subscriber number which seems to be a guesstimate.


Yes, TiVo collected $1 from a $4.99 (now $5.99) fee, and assuming DirecTV does not want to give up the added revenue, I'm assuming $8 per account (best case scenario).

~Alan


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> jazzyd971fm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two key peices of info in that link. 54% of 3.6M DVR's are still with DirecTV. That's 2M TiVo DirecTV DVR's still running. Big number (if true).
> 
> 
> 
> This "non-owned" number probably includes any Comcast or Cox DVRs with TiVo software, but it seems consistent with previous TiVo filings.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bushwacr

Dusty said:


> It is on USA Today, the paper copy I am holding now at the waiting room of the Honda dealership.
> 
> It's not my computer. I can't post a link.


You stole someone's computer to post this!! That's a real trooper.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> This "non-owned" number probably includes any Comcast or Cox DVRs with TiVo software, but it seems consistent with previous TiVo filings.


Article says 2M today, was 3M. Took 2+ years to transition one million boxes. One-at-a-time takes a loooong time.


----------



## Bushwacr

harsh said:


> Evidence?
> 
> The sense I get from their use of the term "substantial" is a number much higher than 50% more.


Accounting speak ........

It's either:
The same 
Insignificant
Minor
Significant
Or substantial
Or will bankrupt us, see Note x.

Depends on the attorney and accountant in the room and has nothing to do with dollars ........


----------



## TerpEE93

Can't wait, I miss my HR10-250...
But please, please, PLEASE do it right:
-- DLB = YES
-- OTA = YES


----------



## RandCfilm

houskamp said:


> has directv ever charged less than 4.99 for something?


Currently there is still the $3.99 SD PPV


----------



## Monty23

Where do I sign up ???????


----------



## Monty23

Finally my most missed feature will be back (DLB) !!


----------



## RandCfilm

Sixto said:


> jazzyd971fm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two key peices of info in that link. 54% of 3.6M DVR's are still with DirecTV. That's 2M TiVo DirecTV DVR's still running. Big number (if true).
> 
> And the $1.50 per subscriber number which seems to be a guesstimate.
> 
> 
> 
> The key verbage is "and save the satellite giant from a potentially punishing patent-infringement lawsuit." It is not about the number of subscribers DirecTV could loose, it is the cost of litigation and possible damages. DirecTV is saving themselves millions of dollars in litigation fees and possible 100's of millions in damages if infringements were to be found. It is called smart business, let TiVo make a unit for the MPEG4 HD stream, save the company 100's of millions of dollars in the process. DirecTV is out no money for production, and if people stay with the new TiVo HD unit so be it. TiVo is the real one benefiting from this agreement. But DirecTV did not come to an agreement with TiVo because people were saying that they would leave DirecTV because they did not have an HD TiVo, it was simple cash management.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rocko62580

Here is another cool feature that Tivo has that will hopefully be brought back. The 28 day rule doesn't record dupilcate shows, so you don't waste your hard drive space, or your time watching something you already saw 27 days ago!

Yippe!


----------



## nc88keyz

3 things. 

1. This is the reason Earl left us ....Tivo wanted him back after converting. 
2. Assuming this will be ported to the HR2x series....I will be looking for 5 Peanuts coming to my door within 12 months ...Long Live Tivo!!!!
3. Dave you rock!!! Thanks for giving us a choice. You are the best.


----------



## parkerdt

I'll take two today! I like my HR20, but I LOVED my DirecTivos! The Tivo interface is just more polished and more intuitive, IMO.

Great news!

Dave


----------



## NOLANSKI

Sales are down at work...I'm worried about my job....I have nothing but children to help me..... and I have ARD.....BUT this......THIS is great news.....I'm smiling:hurah: 

My wife will be happy too!


----------



## Alan Gordon

RandCfilm said:


> The key verbage is "and save the satellite giant from a potentially punishing patent-infringement lawsuit." It is not about the number of subscribers DirecTV could loose, it is the cost of litigation and possible damages. DirecTV is saving themselves millions of dollars in litigation fees and possible 100's of millions in damages if infringements were to be found. It is called smart business, let TiVo make a unit for the MPEG4 HD stream, save the company 100's of millions of dollars in the process. DirecTV is out no money for production, and if people stay with the new TiVo HD unit so be it. *TiVo is the real one benefiting from this agreement. *But DirecTV did not come to an agreement with TiVo because people were saying that they would leave DirecTV because they did not have an HD TiVo, it was simple cash management.


I don't think Sixto was to trying to imply otherwise... just stating that there may be some subscribers out there with DirecTV who might prefer a "*UNIFIED*" GUI across their household.

I would seriously question anyone who claimed TiVo wasn't the real one benefitting from this (other than the patent issue you brought up).

~Alan


----------



## Rocko62580

rahlquist said:


> jazzyd971fm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow good find!
> 
> 
> 
> Nice
Click to expand...


----------



## parkerdt

Tivo certainly benefits. No question.

But so do I, because our family of 4 got used to the Tivo interface over several DriecTivos, and are not really impressed with the HR20 from a human factors standpoint. I won't have 3 women *****ing at me any more!


----------



## bonscott87

jazzyd971fm said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> Two key peices of info in that link. 54% of 3.6M DVR's are still with DirecTV. That's 2M TiVo DirecTV DVR's still running. Big number (if true).


Nothing new to those numbers. Tivo publishes them every quarter with their financial statement. Last quarter Tivo contunued to lose DirecTV subs *AND* their stand alone subs. They have been steadily shrinking for some time. They NEEDED this deal in a bad way. DirecTV only needed it to keep from being sued for the next decade. They don't need this deal to keep subs from leaving, they are growing in record numbers without Tivo as it is.


----------



## wirelessbk

I read where DirecTV will charge more for Tivo Service versus a DirecTV DVR. Will everyone be willing to pay extra to use the Tivo Software?

Source: Article on the front page of the Money section in today's USA Today.

DirecTV will charge a higher fee for TiVo than for it's own DVR. But, "I wouldn't frame this as a premium product," Chang says. "It's an alternative product for which there are higher costs to deliver."


----------



## Alan Gordon

parkerdt said:


> Tivo certainly benefits. No question.
> 
> But so do I, because our family of 4 got used to the Tivo interface over several DriecTivos, and are not really impressed with the HR20 from a human factors standpoint. I won't have 3 women *****ing at me any more!


Hey, I hear you! I was concerned over the day when my Mom and Grandmother needed a new receiver, DirecTV added LIL (SD or HD), or they wanted to upgrade to HD as my Mom doesn't care much for the HR20 and my Grandmother LOVES TiVo's search functions.

~Alan


----------



## loudo

wirelessbk said:


> Will everyone be willing to pay extra to use the TiVo Software?
> "


The answer to that question will depend on what features the unit offers, as compared to the current DirecTV DVR series. Another determining factor will be, "What improvements are made from the old HR10-250 TIVO units".


----------



## Kojo62

I'm kinda "meh" on the new DirecTiVo box itself ... which surprises even me.

I'd always been a huge TiVo fan ever since I first started using one years ago. But in the past year, since switching to the Plus HD DVR, I've learned to love its interface.

I didn't realize how much in fact until I resuscitated the dead DirecTiVo in my bedroom last week with a new hard drive, and I've been irritated by all the limitations in its interface compared to the HR20 downstairs ever since. It's fine for a secondary room, but I'm just not looking forward to going back to TiVo's OS as my primary media room rig.

To me, the HR20's lack of DLB is my only real complaint by comparison (a _big_ complaint, to be sure). But it has otherwise spoiled me in many ways that I did not even realize.

However, I would definitely say that having a choice of both systems is a major win for all D* customers. So on that level, this is unquestionably good consumer news.


----------



## wirelessbk

Kojo62 said:


> I'm kinda "meh" on the new DirecTiVo box itself ... which surprises even me.
> 
> I'd always been a huge TiVo fan ever since I first started using one years ago. But in the past year, since switching to the Plus HD DVR, I've learned to love its interface.
> 
> I didn't realize how much in fact until I resuscitated the dead DirecTiVo in my bedroom last week with a new hard drive, and I've been irritated by all the limitations in its interface compared to the HR20 downstairs ever since. It's fine for a secondary room, but I'm just not looking forward to going back to TiVo's OS as my primary media room rig.
> 
> To me, the HR20's lack of DLB is my only real complaint by comparison (a _big_ complaint, to be sure). But it has otherwise spoiled me in many ways that I did not even realize.
> 
> However, I would definitely say that having a choice of both systems is a major win for all D* customers. So on that level, this is unquestionably good consumer news.


This captures my thoughts as well. I have grown to like the HRxx platform after using TiVo for many years. I like the fact that some development can cross platforms.

In the end, choice is good and I hope this partnership will benefit both platforms moving forward.


----------



## spartanstew

Dusty said:


> Actually, "considerably more" is not that horrible. They used to pay $1 per customer (not per DVR). That is going up to $1.50. I don't necessarily think D* has to raise the price for that amount. Not that they won't.





harsh said:


> Evidence?
> 
> The sense I get from their use of the term "substantial" is a number much higher than 50% more.





jazzyd971fm said:


> Saw this in USA Today this morning http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm


Standard harsh... Comes in with bravado, challenging differing opinions and asking for proof. Of course, when the proof comes, he never responds back. :lol:


----------



## dennisj00

I haven't counted but 'DLB' has probably been mentioned more in this thread than the DLB thread! (at least in fewer days)

I just hope this doesn't mean we're waiting another 12- 18 months for DLB on the HR2x . . . not sure I can make it.


----------



## Chuck W

Kojo62 said:


> I'm kinda "meh" on the new DirecTiVo box itself ... which surprises even me.
> 
> I'd always been a huge TiVo fan ever since I first started using one years ago. But in the past year, since switching to the Plus HD DVR, I've learned to love its interface.
> 
> I didn't realize how much in fact until I resuscitated the dead DirecTiVo in my bedroom last week with a new hard drive, and I've been irritated by all the limitations in its interface compared to the HR20 downstairs ever since. It's fine for a secondary room, but I'm just not looking forward to going back to TiVo's OS as my primary media room rig.
> 
> To me, the HR20's lack of DLB is my only real complaint by comparison (a _big_ complaint, to be sure). But it has otherwise spoiled me in many ways that I did not even realize.
> 
> However, I would definitely say that having a choice of both systems is a major win for all D* customers. So on that level, this is unquestionably good consumer news.


I'm the exact opposite. I've been using the HR20 for over a year now and I still hate it, even more so than when I got it. Yes, it has features, but the bottom line is feature do not make a great device. What fails on the HR20 is basic functions like channel changing. Trying to just change channels sometimes just becomes painful. It it slow to display channel headers and the picture, at time. Sometimes it stalls on a digit when entering a channel, thus you tend to press it again, thinking it missed a number, only to then have it suddenly continue and add TWO of that digit to the screen and thus a wrong channel. And yes, of course I still to this day completely miss DLB and have note grown away from it one bit. To the contrary, the longer I go without, the more I want it back.

Directv made the HR20 too bloated with features that just bogs the box down too much for my tastes. If the new Tivo box shows the speed of the old box and has DLB, I will be near the front of the line for it.


----------



## HDinMA

wingrider01 said:


> no kids huh? Wife tends to watcvh a number of them, I personnel record off of 6 of them during a normal week, wife probably the same amount, kids probably more.
> 
> can't get exicited over this, don;t care for the TIVO GUI at all (yes I still have HR10's and SD Directivos running). Would rather see a tight integration to a media center box over anything, woukd love to junk all my directv dvr's and go through the HTPC that I have running
> 
> Also suspect the new Directivo unit is going to more tightly locked down for hacks


Actually, I have a wife and two kids but they don't really care about HD over SD, if you can believe it. In my family I am alone in my infatuation with HD. lol

So far I like that the HR21/22 GUI's latest software is faster and seems to have undergone some nice visual improvements since its inception.

And as long as we are discussing DLB, I will throw in that 90 minutes is an awesome increase over the 30 I got form my HR10-250 on the first buffer. One thing that always annoyed me about TiVo is that accidentally bumping the channel to antoher would lose the buffer. This has happened enough to warrant a confirmation message, I think (I would say after 15 minutes of buffering would suffice).


----------



## HDinMA

gregjones said:


> This is not a development problem, but a problem with the FCC not bothering to approve it for nearly 18 months. It is somewhat hard for a company to work as one group when they cannot get federal permission to be one group.


Figures.

And this is the same reason why I was forced to switch receivers in the first place - Federal regulations that prevent me from getting DNS East Coast locals now that the HD locals are availble (not to mention MPEG2 going away).


----------



## rahvin

bonscott87 said:


> Nothing new to those numbers. Tivo publishes them every quarter with their financial statement. Last quarter Tivo contunued to lose DirecTV subs *AND* their stand alone subs. They have been steadily shrinking for some time. They NEEDED this deal in a bad way. DirecTV only needed it to keep from being sued for the next decade. They don't need this deal to keep subs from leaving, they are growing in record numbers without Tivo as it is.


DirecTV was already protected permanently from Lawsuit by Tivo. When they purchased the remains of ReplayTV from Denon-Marantz they purchased the ReplayTV patents and cross-patent sharing arrangement that Tivo and ReplayTV did to settle their lawsuits against each other. That cross license agreement they purchased bought them PERMANENT protection from Tivo and most importantly made it so they were the ONLY provider protected from Tivo's patents. I suspected at the time that it meant that DTV had decided they were never going to license Tivo again, otherwise why spend the 7 million to buy software you will never use.

Then of course Liberty Media bought DirecTV. At the time I posted that much like Liberty Media's other ventures and cost cutting they would can their own DVR development and re-purchase the Tivo Software and just pass the cost on the customer. After much trouble in completing the DirecTV acquisition Liberty media finally consummated the acquisition this year after a year waiting for the various agency approvals. Low and behold a few months after finally taking control Liberty announces that Tivo will be available again and extends the agreement till 2015 even with Tivo demanding "substantially" more money per DVR.

I suspect that within the next 6months many of the DirecTV developers working on the current DVR software will get fired and all development on the in house software will stop and it will move into strictly maintenance mode. This will happen right around the time that Tivo is made available again. Liberty will likely wait to see how the redeployment of Tivo goes and keep the current software as the low end introductory software and up sell the Tivo software to every customer they can. As time goes on the Tivo software will continue to improve and the current DVR software will continue to stagnate as a result of the development being suspended.

This is just my prediction, but Liberty isn't hard to predict because of how aggressive they are about maximizing return. They fired all the reporters at the LA Times after buying it even though the paper was making 200million a year in profit just cause it was cheaper to get all their news from the AP, Reuters and other sources. Having seen numerous interviews with the CEO it's apparent they know that when you are in a media business it's cheaper to outsource secondary aspects of the business. DVR software is one of those areas that is doesn't make sense to do in house development. DTV spent over a year just getting their software stable. They still probably field hundreds of support calls over issues that are rock stable in the Tivo software. Sure they control the DVR more and their branding is more prominent but I'm willing to bet the new agreement gives them much more ability to rebrand the interface to DTV rather than Tivo. All that cost them is a hike in the fee paid to Tivo which they promptly pass right on to the customer.

The fact is Liberty media isn't the control freak that News Corp is when it comes to control over every aspect of the business. This means they run the numbers and make sure it makes financial sense to develop their own software and they likely ran those numbers and realized they can sell the TIVO software and keep 60% of the DVR fee, or they can develop their own DVR software and spend all of the DVR fee on the development. In that simple financial comparison is the answer. Liberty Media has only ever cared about the bottom line. We'll see if my prediction is right, but I was right about the relicense of Tivo I predicted when Liberty bought DTV. Now we just need to wait for Evan to tell us the development staff is getting laid off.


----------



## Sixto

rahvin said:


> DirecTV was already protected permanently from Lawsuit by Tivo...


You've made two very interesting posts.


----------



## Maruuk

Is this going to be basically just the new Tivo HD XL in an MPEG-4 D*-friendly version?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maruuk said:


> Is this going to be basically just the new Tivo HD XL in an MPEG-4 D*-friendly version?


Possibly. Too much time between now and then to be sure.


----------



## babzog

Wow... wow!

I'm wanting to get my hands on an HR (for free, of course) for the fall, but I wonder if it's wroth waiting another year for a tivo?


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'm rarely a wait and see kinda guy. If I have the opportunity now, I take it now. 

Then take the TiVo opportunity (if you want one) next year.


----------



## Sixto

The latest: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6651945#post6651945


----------



## generalpatton78

babzog said:


> Wow... wow!
> 
> I'm wanting to get my hands on an HR (for free, of course) for the fall, but I wonder if it's wroth waiting another year for a tivo?


Even as I Tivo fan I have to say get a Hr2x box now. I've seen to many product delays to wait for something scheduled to be a year away. Plus if your going to wait a year on a new HD Tivo then that would be half of your commitment peroid right there.

On another subject I think it's way to early and with to little information to start guessing on pricing. One thing I did think of is the DVR fee situation for current DTivo users. When we DTivo users added HR2x boxes they added a new "DVR Fee" to our accounts to turn on the HR2x DVR ablities. We are only charged a 4.99 fee for all our DVRs but Directv has to have the two seperate DVR fees in their system so both DVR types work. It would be sweet to be grandfathered with this fee system.


----------



## tpm1999

Looks like the tivocommunity site will soon be as important as they were before. Business question, why would directv continue to develop DVRs when they can have tivo do it for them for free?


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## Tom Robertson

tpm1999 said:


> Looks like the tivocommunity site will soon be as important as they were before. Business question, why would directv continue to develop DVRs when they can have tivo do it for them for free?


Choice.

(Who says it's free, btw? It ain't by any means.) 

Cheers,
Tom


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## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> It ain't by any means.


Have you seen some indication that it is going to cost DIRECTV?


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## aphex

Is this what Earl is involved in now?


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> Have you seen some indication that it is going to cost DIRECTV?


Aside from the SEC filings and the USA today article you mean?


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## Jeremy W

aphex said:


> Is this what Earl is involved in now?


Earl is working for DirecTV, not Tivo.


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## inkahauts

tpm1999 said:


> Looks like the tivocommunity site will soon be as important as they were before. Business question, why would directv continue to develop DVRs when they can have tivo do it for them for free?


Tivo is going to cost more... And Directv has already said that they are heading to only HD capable DVR machines... so I am guessing part of the reason they are bringing in tivo is so that they can say they will offer the customers 2 choices... Theirs or Tivo...


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## LOBO2999

I hope they lets us with lifetime ,move it to the new Tivos.


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## wingrider01

DarinC said:


> You can say what you want about the GUI design... at least they record your shows consistently.


Had lots more issues with the HR10's I had/have with not recording shows and locking up then what I have had with the HR2X series.


----------



## wingrider01

wirelessbk said:


> I read where DirecTV will charge more for Tivo Service versus a DirecTV DVR. Will everyone be willing to pay extra to use the Tivo Software?
> 
> Source: Article on the front page of the Money section in today's USA Today.
> 
> DirecTV will charge a higher fee for TiVo than for it's own DVR. But, "I wouldn't frame this as a premium product," Chang says. "It's an alternative product for which there are higher costs to deliver."


Not here, would switch back if it reduced my cost but no way if it raised it. Only thing I would consider paying more for is a true direct connect to a HTPC unit that does not involve USB ports


----------



## HoTat2

wingrider01 said:


> Had lots more issues with the HR10's I had/have with not recording shows and locking up then what I have had with the HR2X series.


Yes, I was also about to write that unless the new HD DTIVO fees are going to be appreciably higher than the current HR21/22 series I didn't see how this agreement could benefit the current HR series given that I find TIVO to be superior code writers of DVR software than DirecTV. But now that I think about it, this was for the TIVO SD units in comparison to DirecTV's first foray into the DVR business with the R15's debut. However DirecTV's SD units have matured a great deal since then and are essentially stable boxes now, and while the HD HR series has certainly had it's problems the HD DTIVO HR10-250 was a quirky box too.

So maybe we should not assume the premiere of the new HD DTIVO next year is going to automatically spell doom for the HR series units.

Anyhow, if I were to guess, the new HD DTIVO box will largely be a digital satellite version of their current series 3 digital cable ready HD DVR. So does anyone know how well this unit has performed since it's development? Has it experienced similar problems that the HRs series has undergone with DirecTV?


----------



## HoTat2

HDinMA said:


> ...And as long as we are discussing DLB, I will throw in that 90 minutes is an awesome increase over the 30 I got form my HR10-250 on the first buffer. One thing that always annoyed me about TiVo is that accidentally bumping the channel to antoher would lose the buffer. This has happened enough to warrant a confirmation message, I think (I would say after 15 minutes of buffering would suffice).


Yep, this just happened to me recently last Saturday evening when I was watching "Extreme Home Makeovers" on TV Land on about a 45 minute delay with my HR21. Then I accidentally hit the channel change button while handling the remote to try and zip through a commercial and "poof," no more show.  And I never got to see new home they built for the economically disadvantaged family in that episode. 

That was one of the biggest and helpful features for buffering live TV I miss most about the old ReplayTV DVRs, which neither TIVO or the DirecTV HR series included in their units. If you were watching a program on delay via the live buffer, and were to press the channel change button on the remote either intentionally or through accident, you would get a pop-up warning message that stated you needed to press the "select" button to continue or go live first in order to make the change. This saved me on many occasions when I would accidently bump the channel change button while reaching, handling, or sometimes even sitting on the ReplayTV remote.

So unless it was a patent infringement problem it has annoyed me to no end that TIVO and DirecTV overlooked the inclusion of this important safety feature for the LB.


----------



## lguvenoz

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, I was also about to write that unless the new HD DTIVO fees are going to be appreciably higher than the current HR21/22 series I didn't see how this agreement could benefit the current HR series given that I find TIVO to be superior code writers of DVR software than DirecTV. But now that I think about it, this was for the TIVO SD units in comparison to DirecTV's first foray into the DVR business with the R15's debut. However DirecTV's SD units have matured a great deal since then and are essentially stable boxes now, and while the HD HR series has certainly had it's problems the HD DTIVO HR10-250 was a quirky box too.
> 
> So maybe we should not assume the premiere of the new HD DTIVO next year is going to automatically spell doom for the HR series units.
> 
> Anyhow, if I were to guess, the new HD DTIVO box will largely be a digital satellite version of their current series 3 digital cable ready HD DVR. So does anyone know how well this unit has performed since it's development? Has it experienced similar problems that the HRs series has undergone with DirecTV?


I have a friend with a fully loaded Series 3 box. He has a few complaints:

1. The whole CableCard thing is a fiasco. When he added the second card to his box it took the cable company nearly an entire day to get it working. Hopefully nothing like this would ever plague a DirecTV implementation.
2. He has some grips about performance and capacity. Part of me says though that these are typical. Most, if not all, of us always think we need more storage, and that it could be faster.
3. Cost!!! He was pretty early onto the Series 3 bandwagon, and paid through the nose to get his box. I hope DirecTV and Tivo are not setting the bar at the HR10-250 price point.

Overall he likes it pretty well. Nothing other than those issues.

I think the new box will probably be a big hit, but if I had to guess I would say that folks should expect a $75-100 premium for the box over the HR units, and that the monthly fee will probably be $9.99 or so. I also would not be surprised to see DirecTV demand that certain features be disabled just as they did with the old ones.


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> Aside from the SEC filings and the USA today article you mean?


Those articles supported that the monthly price was going to increase, but your inference was that there would be some sort of up-front development cost to DIRECTV.

I can't imagine that TiVo could afford to foot the bill.


----------



## EricRobins

rahvin said:


> DirecTV was already protected permanently from Lawsuit by Tivo. When they purchased the remains of ReplayTV from Denon-Marantz they purchased the ReplayTV patents and cross-patent sharing arrangement that Tivo and ReplayTV did to settle their lawsuits against each other. That cross license agreement they purchased bought them PERMANENT protection from Tivo and most importantly made it so they were the ONLY provider protected from Tivo's patents. I suspected at the time that it meant that DTV had decided they were never going to license Tivo again, otherwise why spend the 7 million to buy software you will never use.


How do you know any of this? Have you ever heard of a "change in control" clause in a patent license? Its pretty common.

Have you actually read the ENTIRE license agreement Replay had with TiVo? Have you read any of the agreements D* had with TiVo?

I would also suspect that any of the "protections" are far from PERMANENT. However, I have not seen any of these agreements, and any idea I may have is merely a guess.

This paragraph from the USA Today article confuses me:



> As part of the deal, TiVo agreed not to challenge DirecTV's DVR patents the way it has with EchoStar. In 2006, a Texas jury found that DVRs from the owner of the Dish Network violated TiVo patents.


Did the author mean to say that TiVo agreed not to assert is patents against D*s DVRs? Does D* even own any patents relating to DVRs? Did TiVo challenge E*'s patents or DVRs? Gotta love ignorant lay people discussing legal issues!

(BTW, I don't just play a patent attorney on TV.)


----------



## harsh

HoTat2 said:


> However DirecTV's SD units have matured a great deal since then and are essentially stable boxes now, and while the HD HR series has certainly had it's problems the HD DTIVO HR10-250 was a quirky box too.


This is consistent with a product with a feature set that is conservative enough that the bugs can be starved out as opposed to being provided with new material to thrive on.


----------



## harsh

rahvin said:


> DirecTV was already protected permanently from Lawsuit by Tivo.


Clearly this isn't the case as their previous peace treaty was to expire on February 15, 2010. The new non-litigation agreement has been extended to February 15, 2015 with an option to extend to 2018.

I don't think it has been established that TiVo and Replay ever really settled their respective IP issues. The theory was that continued litigation would kill both of them.


----------



## Ken S

harsh said:


> Those articles supported that the monthly price was going to increase, but your inference was that there would be some sort of up-front development cost to DIRECTV.
> 
> I can't imagine that TiVo could afford to foot the bill.


harsh,

Read the SEC filing. It's clear that DirecTV is picking up some of the development tab. The payments are in the form of the minimums they have agreed to and for direct payment for certain development.


----------



## DFDureiko

didn't they charge a per box TiVo Fee before, ie if you had two TiVo's you paid 5.99 x 2 per month, wheras with the HR, you pay one flat "dvr" fee?
Dan


----------



## bakerfall

DFDureiko said:


> didn't they charge a per box TiVo Fee before, ie if you had two TiVo's you paid 5.99 x 2 per month, wheras with the HR, you pay one flat "dvr" fee?
> Dan


Nope, it was $4.99 DVR fee for the house


----------



## Ned C

This announcement is as big as Brett Favre coming back...YA YA and more YA>>>


----------



## Bushwacr

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, I was also about to write that unless the new HD DTIVO fees are going to be appreciably higher than the current HR21/22 series I didn't see how this agreement could benefit the current HR series given that I find TIVO to be superior code writers of DVR software than DirecTV. But now that I think about it, this was for the TIVO SD units in comparison to DirecTV's first foray into the DVR business with the R15's debut. However DirecTV's SD units have matured a great deal since then and are essentially stable boxes now, and while the HD HR series has certainly had it's problems the HD DTIVO HR10-250 was a quirky box too.
> 
> So maybe we should not assume the premiere of the new HD DTIVO next year is going to automatically spell doom for the HR series units.
> 
> Anyhow, if I were to guess, the new HD DTIVO box will largely be a digital satellite version of their current series 3 digital cable ready HD DVR. So does anyone know how well this unit has performed since it's development? Has it experienced similar problems that the HRs series has undergone with DirecTV?


Well, the S3 is no longer Tivo's current line; I think it's now the Tivo HD and its big brother the HD XL.

I think the majority of the issues with them all have been related to the Cablecard debacle and recently the SDV debacle. The FCC is reviewing the legality of SDV.

I think the S2 line has the majority of issues.


----------



## DrummerBoy523

Bushwacr said:


> You stole someone's computer to post this!! That's a real trooper.


quite a generalization! maybe just maybe the Honda dealer has free computer access?? you think?


----------



## BruceS

DrummerBoy523 said:


> quite a generalization! maybe just maybe the Honda dealer has free computer access?? you think?


He can certainly do it with any cellphone that has web access.

I have posted to this site using my iPhone 3G.


----------



## wingrider01

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, I was also about to write that unless the new HD DTIVO fees are going to be appreciably higher than the current HR21/22 series I didn't see how this agreement could benefit the current HR series given that I find TIVO to be superior code writers of DVR software than DirecTV. But now that I think about it, this was for the TIVO SD units in comparison to DirecTV's first foray into the DVR business with the R15's debut. However DirecTV's SD units have matured a great deal since then and are essentially stable boxes now, and while the HD HR series has certainly had it's problems the HD DTIVO HR10-250 was a quirky box too.
> 
> So maybe we should not assume the premiere of the new HD DTIVO next year is going to automatically spell doom for the HR series units.
> 
> Anyhow, if I were to guess, the new HD DTIVO box will largely be a digital satellite version of their current series 3 digital cable ready HD DVR. So does anyone know how well this unit has performed since it's development? Has it experienced similar problems that the HRs series has undergone with DirecTV?


As I have mentioned, would rather dump both the directv tivo based units and HR2X units that I have in use and go to a true HTPC without the hokey sadly limited USB interface. have a very nice QUAD Core VMC box with 3 Tuner's and a 15 drive external ESATA enclosure running right now.

Given the statement in the press release, your comment of "So maybe we should not assume the premiere of the new HD DTIVO next year is going to automatically spell doom for the HR series units." is off base as of right now, since it specificly states that their line will continue to be the primary unit and the upcoming TIVO based units will be offered as a alternative to their units, it also infers that they will be a different pricing structure if you as a new user or a current users requests the TIVO based units. Then again this is all speculation based on what the press release stated


----------



## Bushwacr

DrummerBoy523 said:


> quite a generalization! maybe just maybe the Honda dealer has free computer access?? you think?


It was a frikkin' joke. Don't get a heart attack.

Of course they public access ....... geesh.


----------



## jkrell

My jaw dropped when I saw this. Just as I am getting used to a TiVo-free life, this news drops. I love TiVo. Not only for its ease of use and stability, but for its hackability. So a key issue for me is whether it will be hackable as other DTiVos have been in the past. If so, the option of being able to record MPEG-4 HD content and transfer it to my iPod is just too much to pass up.

The DirecTV DVRs, at least for me, have been at least as frustrating as the old HD DTiVo was. The old TiVo would freeze up, miss recordings, etc. I have two HR20s and one of them needs to be restarted about once a month, as we will turn it on to find it completely unresponsive and with a black screen. The other one has had every variety of audio problems in playing back recorded HD content. Often, it will require a restart but that's impossible if it is recording at the time -- which leaves you stuck with unwatchable content until reboot.

I'll welcome TiVo back into the mix, especially if these are not "crippled" TiVos, like the old ones were for a long time (the PR makes it sound like they will have all TiVo functionality). The keys for me are *DLB* which I only use during football season and *MRV*. Are people not psyched about the prospect of MRV? I will admit that I grew tired of this long thread around page 2 or 3 -- I have to see a doctor about my ADD, I know -- but no one seems to be too excited that the new HD TiVo will possibly support MRV.

We still have two SD DTiVos and we use MRV _all the time_. I would pay for this upgrade without a doubt just to have DLB and MRV.

I'll probably wait until they start making some kind of replacement offer, or shift my HR20s to TVs we don't watch as much and get the new HD TiVo for my theater and my wife's retreat.

All in all, I am excited as two of my favorite products -- TiVo and DirecTV -- are friends again. What a nice surprise.


----------



## DarinC

jkrell said:


> So a key issue for me is whether it will be hackable as other DTiVos have been in the past. If so, the option of being able to record MPEG-4 HD content and transfer it to my iPod is just too much to pass up.


It's too early to know a lot of the details, but you can pretty much guarantee that it won't be nearly as hackable as the older DirecTiVos.


----------



## NickIndy

minorthr said:


> HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!! :eek2:


Uh yeah....I thought I felt a chill.....


----------



## NickIndy

kevin1844 said:


> The HR20 has so many intuitive features that Tivo doesn't. Why should I have to stop watching a recorded show in order to see whats on live TV? Why should I have to stop watching liveTV to see whats recorded?


You haven't used a non-DirecTV TiVo in a while. The Comcast version handles this the same as the HR20 does. I would assume the new version DirecTV is taking part in will do the same. Give it a chance.


----------



## spartanstew

DrummerBoy523 said:


> quite a generalization! maybe just maybe the Honda dealer has free computer access?? you think?


ZOOM


----------



## Alan Gordon

HoTat2 said:


> Anyhow, if I were to guess, the new HD DTIVO box will largely be a digital satellite version of their current series 3 digital cable ready HD DVR. So does anyone know how well this unit has performed since it's development? Has it experienced similar problems that the HRs series has undergone with DirecTV?


I've had the TiVo Series 3 now for over a year (I could have sworn it was two years, and said so earlier in this thread, but apparently I was counting my SD Stand-Alone TiVo in the amount of years)... which means I got it less than a year from inception, but it's been NOTHING BUT stable for me.

To put it in perspective, most of my experience with the DirecTiVos have been NOTHING BUT stable, but a couple of years back, the DirecTiVos started having "hiccups" (where the unit resetted itself in the middle of watching something) which led many to believe that DirecTV was "sabotaging" the TiVos to get people to move to the DirecTV+ DVRs. The "conspiracy theory" has been shot down MANY times by people by the fact that TiVo is the one writing the code. DirecTV and TiVo earlier this year offered a update to DirecTiVo's, but as I have "topless" (not quite naked) DSL, I do not have the current firmware, so I can't comment as to whether or not this "bug" has been fixed. Either way, my DirecTiVo's are nowhere NEAR as stable as my TiVo Series 3.

I would make comparisons to the HR20 in regards to stability, speed, and the like, but considering I'm consistently running a CE on my HR20 and I'm always running a NR on the TiVo Series 3... I don't think any comparisons by me would be fair to DirecTV.

~Alan


----------



## harsh

Ken S said:


> Read the SEC filing. It's clear that DirecTV is picking up some of the development tab. The payments are in the form of the minimums they have agreed to and for direct payment for certain development.


The minimums don't kick in until 2010 which is after the product is scheduled to debut. This would seem to leave all initial development costs (other than the "excess development work") in TiVo's lap.

Without knowing the relative value of the minimums, it is hard to tell what kind of funding they will bring. The fact that the minimums will increase as time goes on suggests that the initial ones are relatively low. Again, this doesn't support that DIRECTV is helping out with the initial development costs.

The language about deferring funding for "mutually agreed development" and "excess development work" are bewildering to me.



TiVo SEC filing said:


> The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. On an annual basis, we will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded up-front by DIRECTV subject to limited future fee credits.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Bushwacr said:


> Well, the S3 is no longer Tivo's current line; I think it's now the Tivo HD and its big brother the HD XL.
> 
> I think the majority of the issues with them all have been related to the Cablecard debacle and recently the SDV debacle. The FCC is reviewing the legality of SDV.
> 
> I think the S2 line has the majority of issues.


While you are correct in that the majority of the issues (in fact, the only issues I know of) are the CableCard and SDV debacle, I want to elaborate on your first paragraph.

You're correct in that the S3 is no longer in TiVo's lineup, but to my knowledge, the TiVo HD and it's big brother, the HD XL are the same software as the S3, just without some of the bells and whistles.

For instance, the TiVo Series 3 had a LCD display on the outside of the box (if the unit was on, the program title would be displayed on the outside of the box (neato keen, BTW), THX certification, 250gb hard drive, backlit remote,

However, the TiVo HD (TiVo's current BUDGET HD DVR) has a cheaper looking external appearence, NO THX certification, 160gb hard drive, standard stand-alone TiVo remote (not backlit).

The TiVo HD XL will add a 1tb drive and backlit TiVo remote, but will basically be the TiVo HD (which is basically the TiVo Series 3 sans bells and whistles).

~Alan


----------



## TigerDriver

I've never understood why D* wanted to be in the software business anyhow, because, IMHO, they're not very good at it. Similarly, Tivo can't compete in the hardware business, because their small size makes it difficult for them to build hardware cheaply. 

So, here's what my crystal ball tells me. As you may know, Tivo sued Echostar for patent (# 6233389) and won its claim in the Washing D.C., circuit. A day or so ago, Echostar lost its appeal. This means that Echostar's last chance is the US Supreme court, which almost certainly won't accept the case. It's worth noting that Echostar's claimed "work-around" of the Tivo patent was also held to be infringing. 

As soon as the Supreme court refuses the case, Tivo holds all the cards wrt to DVR technology. Since a patent is a legal monopoly, Tivo can charge what it wants for licenses--or even chose not to license at all. D* has just extended its 5-year licensing agreement with Tivo so it's out of Tivo's cross-hairs for another five years. It's worth noting that the new 5-year licensing agreement was a pro-forma option in the older agreement--but the new agreement contains no such option. So, after five more years, D* will be in violation.

My prediction: as soon as the Tivo based harware is ready, D* will announce its acquistion of Tivo, Inc. IMHO, this has been a no-brainer for some time because of Tivo's 800MM market cap--D* could have had Tivo for very little premium over its share price. However, now that Tivo's patent has been upheld, the price won't be so cheap, but Tivo will still be strategically necessary for D*. (Assuming D* and Dish don't get into a bidding war.)

The question is whether D* buys Tivo just for its patents. In other words, will D* disband Tivo's product development altogether and shut down Tivo's business. Or will it integrate the software technology and name recognition ("Tivo" is now a recognized verb in most new dictionaries). My money is on the latter. All the DVRs will revert to the "DirecTV powered by Tivo," marketing scheme.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Ken S said:


> I've seen decisions bigger than this made because the wrong person gets ticked off. I wasn't kidding when I said it could have been something like someone's grandkid or kid seeing an adult title, a wife getting a blank recording, etc. that got this ball rolling very quickly.


I've seen it too Ken, but there also had to be a rational Business driver to push for such an astounding change in direction. The development team has been working on the product for over 2 (nearly 3?) years now and has made progress. Some new features have been released, but maybe their milestones have slipped for other features deemed critical when compared to the competition. ReplayTV assets were added (not sure about the engineers), but yet issues remained. Now we have a punting situation back to a partner that was given the golden boot years ago. Is it desperation? Unknown, but the 9th plane of the netherworld doesn't freeze over unless something is driving it. An effort towards customer retention?

Regardless of the reason, the wife instantly became excited with the news after swearing off DirecTV due to her frustrations with the HR-2x. As soon as our contract expired, she wanted to give up all of her glorious sports subscriptions and go elsewhere. Now, the path is uncertain. So far, it's a Marketing win in our house.


----------



## Jhon69

TigerDriver said:


> I've never understood why D* wanted to be in the software business anyhow, because, IMHO, they're not very good at it. Similarly, Tivo can't compete in the hardware business, because their small size makes it difficult for them to build hardware cheaply.
> 
> My prediction: when the Tivo based harware is ready, D* will simply acquire Tivo, Inc. (Tivo market cap 800MM; D* market cap 30B). The two brands will promply merge and all DVR equipment will be shipped with Tivo software.


Two words.Rupert Murdoch.

Who has NewsCorp and NDS(a DVR company).:sure:

But now we have John Malone.

Who has Liberty Media(Starz!) and who wants to consolidate DirecTV to sell!.


----------



## gregjones

Offering Tivo as an alternative software load on the current HR2x series does not signify anything in regards to the current DVR development team. We have heard for years that some of the Tivo devotees would buy anything as long as it had that brand name on it. DirecTV obviously had a deal so cheap they were willing to decide to call their bluff.

There is no objective reason to call the HR2x series less successful than the HR10-250. Compare the number of models activated (before the MPEG2 swap). Consider the number of DVR households pre-HR2x versus now. I'm a Tivo fan, but it would be best not to make grand assertions based on nothing but personal preference.

When someone shows up with definitive information regarding Tivo software replacing the HR2x current software instead of being an additional offering, it will be worth discussing.


----------



## TigerDriver

Jhon69 said:


> Two words.Rupert Murdoch.
> 
> Who has NewsCorp and NDS(a DVR company).:sure:
> 
> But now we have John Malone.
> 
> Who has Liberty Media(Starz!) and who wants to consolidate DirecTV to sell!.


I essentially rewrote my post with some analysis of my hypothesis. Please re-read it here.


----------



## mightythor88

i was watching the "America's Game" of the Giants and Eli mentioned tivoing the games while watching NFL ST on his bye week.

It was the Mannings who got this ball rollin'. That is one powerful family! :lol:


----------



## HoTat2

Alan Gordon said:


> I've had the TiVo Series 3 now for over a year (I could have sworn it was two years, and said so earlier in this thread, but apparently I was counting my SD Stand-Alone TiVo in the amount of years)... which means I got it less than a year from inception, but it's been NOTHING BUT stable for me.
> 
> To put it in perspective, most of my experience with the DirecTiVos have been NOTHING BUT stable, but a couple of years back, the DirecTiVos started having "hiccups" (where the unit resetted itself in the middle of watching something) which led many to believe that DirecTV was "sabotaging" the TiVos to get people to move to the DirecTV+ DVRs. The "conspiracy theory" has been shot down MANY times by people by the fact that TiVo is the one writing the code. DirecTV and TiVo earlier this year offered a update to DirecTiVo's, but as I have "topless" (not quite naked) DSL, I do not have the current firmware, so I can't comment as to whether or not this "bug" has been fixed. Either way, my DirecTiVo's are nowhere NEAR as stable as my TiVo Series 3.
> 
> I would make comparisons to the HR20 in regards to stability, speed, and the like, but considering I'm consistently running a CE on my HR20 and I'm always running a NR on the TiVo Series 3... I don't think any comparisons by me would be fair to DirecTV.
> 
> ~Alan


OK thanks Alan and others;

So I take it TIVO has done a lot better writing code and what have you for a HD DVR since the days of the rather quirky finicky HR10-250 in their series 3/TIVO HD/and TIVO HD XL?

BTW, is it still only a 30 min. live buffer and no picture in guide feature on those units?


----------



## JonW

Wow, great news assuming TiVo can come up with a solid, reliable box that scoops up all the programs we want to see. I wouldn't mind seeing thumbs up, thumbs down and TiVo favorites again.

I just hope there isn't an additional TiVo fee beyond the DVR fee.

Of course maybe by then DirecTv will have worked out all the bugs in the HR20 and it'll be a reliable means to record programs. Hah!

My only experience with TiVo was the "finicky" HR10-250 and it was about 20x more reliable than the HR20, up until the point the HD died and I had to upgrade to the HR20.


----------



## BHYDE-1

I just saw this message, and I am thrilled.

For the past year, our family has used the DirecTV HR-20 and HR-21 - along with a Tivo Series 3 (because we kept Comcast, since DirecTV doesn't yet carry public television in HD, and, living in Connecticut, my wife and I wanted our beloved UConn women Huskies in HD during basketball season).

We always end up using the Tivo for any programming on both DirecTV and Comcast just because of the greater ease of use.

The HR series HD-DVRs do have some neat interactive features in their sports programming, but overall we both vastly prefer the Tivo, for both its more easily used software and the better remote.

So again, thank you to the new management at DirecTV, thank you, thank you.

We'll line up to buy the new HD DTivos.


----------



## nc88keyz

This is one I havent seen yet. 

I will give up my HR20s for Tivos or go TSD if thats what it takes to get the following feature that Directv missed the boat on. 

0-9 IR assignability. 

Yes for those of us with 4 DVRS connected into AV distribution systems and need one remote without buying IR remote routers. 

Dont you all remember this on tivo????


----------



## harsh

nc88keyz said:


> Yes for those of us with 4 DVRS connected into AV distribution systems and need one remote without buying IR remote routers.


Could you explain how this assignability feature would answer this problem?


----------



## Tom Robertson

nc88keyz said:


> This is one I havent seen yet.
> 
> I will give up my HR20s for Tivos or go TSD if thats what it takes to get the following feature that Directv missed the boat on.
> 
> 0-9 IR assignability.
> 
> Yes for those of us with 4 DVRS connected into AV distribution systems and need one remote without buying IR remote routers.
> 
> Dont you all remember this on tivo????


True...tho I use the RID and RF giving 999,999 unique IDs 

That said, I do wish the HR2x family allowed IR and RF simultaneously.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Alan Gordon

HoTat2 said:


> OK thanks Alan and others;
> 
> So I take it TIVO has done a lot better writing code and what have you for a HD DVR since the days of the rather quirky finicky HR10-250 in their series 3/TIVO HD/and TIVO HD XL?


Depends on how you look at it. I also have a Series 2 Stand-Alone unit, and I find it to be superior (feature, speed, and reliability wise) to the DirecTiVos (SD & HD). Comparing the TiVo Series 3 to the Series 2, I'd say it's about equal in speed and reliability to the Series 2, but adds additional features. Compared to the HR10-250, I'd say it's quite a bit superior.



HoTat2 said:


> BTW, is it still only a 30 min. live buffer and no picture in guide feature on those units?


I'm about 97% sure it's still only a 30 minute buffer, but I'm not positive as I RARELY watch live programming. As for PIG, the stand-alone TiVos do not have it, but the Comcast TiVo software does.

BTW, for those interested, the Summer update to my TiVo Series 3 included the ability to view the guide while watching a recorded program, the ability to play or delete an entire folder, the ability to jump forward or backward 24 hours in the guide, search for call sign, the ability to review rated programs, and the ability to toggle CC on and off easier! 

~Alan


----------



## jdspencer

It has been conjectured that the wording of the marriage announcement implies that the HR20/21 could get a TiVo update. Now that would solve the problem of subs from having to buy/lease new units. 

Possible?

Sorry if this was already mentioned, I didn't go through all pages of this thread.


----------



## poppin_fresh

Put me in the "glad to hear it" camp.

I had a Tivo Series 2 DVR for a couple years before I was forced to alternative equipment. I can honestly say that I have missed the Tivo since the first minute it was gone. My current DVR is difficult to use (my parents would never figure it out) and lacks some of the functionality my Tivo had 4 years ago. If I could get Tivo back, in HD, I would sign up tomorrow.


----------



## jhollan2

This is wonderful! I cant wait to go back to more than 50 "wishlist" items, suggested shows and DLB!!! Since Tivo already has MRV capabilities this is looking up! But I dont know if I can wait a whole year...


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## nc88keyz

will be here before you know it.


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## Sixto

"In fact, the DVR hardware will be produced by DirecTV. TiVo's Denney said, "We're working closely with them on the design, but it's their hardware and the TiVo software." http://www.toptechnews.com/news/story.xhtml?story_id=010000WX5TVK​Still not clear whether it's "new" hardware but seems likely based on "we're working closely with them on the design"


----------



## Jeremy W

Definitely new hardware. The HR2x is designed for the HR2x software, not Tivo software. They aren't going to try and shoehorn their stuff into it, and I'm sure DirecTV doesn't want them to either.


----------



## Doug Brott

nc88keyz said:


> will be here before you know it.


Optomistic, are we? I'd put more money on the over than the under myself.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Doug Brott said:


> Optomistic, are we? I'd put more money on the over than the under myself.


I think he was referring to the fact that time flies... and not about whether or not the hardware will make the timeframe mentioned.

~Alan


----------



## nc88keyz

Time does seem to fly as we get older, but yes I think directv will underpromise and over deliver on this one.


----------



## Tom Robertson

nc88keyz said:


> Time does seem to fly as we get older, but yes I think [strike]directv[/strike] will underpromise and over deliver on this one.


The correct operative word here is TiVo. Not DIRECTV.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## rahlquist

Tom Robertson said:


> The correct operative word here is TiVo. Not DIRECTV.


But surely D* will have to sign off on it.


----------



## Alan Gordon

nc88keyz said:


> Time does seem to fly as we get older, but yes I think directv will underpromise and over deliver on this one.


If TiVo uses seperate hardware for the box, I believe we are talking about different circumstances than the original DirecTiVos, the HR10-250, the TiVo Series 3, and the ComcasTiVo.

When they did the original DirecTiVo, TiVo had to deal with combining a satellite receiver with their TiVo service, modifying their GUI (both in look, and in feature differences), then it took some time afterwards to get dual tuners working right. By the time they got to the HR10-250, they kind of had to start over a bit due to the differences in complexity. The TiVo Series 3 had an advantage over the previous receivers as they could draw upon the technology of the HR10-250, and the feature set of previous Stand-Alone TiVos, but they had to deal with the mess that is the CableCard... which probably caused A LOT of delays (which apparently is the norm when dealing with CableLabs), and the ComcasTiVo was probably something of a nightmare to try get working with already deployed boxes, "dumbing down" the GUI, and getting VOD working right.

The main issue with getting a new HD DirecTiVo will be what we don't know.

I would ask how much of the TiVo feature-set will be ported over to the new HD DirecTiVo... we know KidZone (I've said it before, I'll say it again, why they don't promote this more to parents I don't know) and Universal Swivel Switch, but they should port over VERY easily. I wouldn't be surprised if DirecTV wanted TiVo to disable the links to Amazon Unbox titles on USS and instead link to PPV, and VOD PPV, but that should be more of a database issue. I can understand if DirecTV wanted TiVo to disable TiVo-To-Go and (some) TiVo Desktop functions, though I wonder if DirecTV could write it into the contract somehow that TiVo would be liable for any "infringements" should copyright holders get upset.

No, I think the issue will most likely be how much of the DirecTV feature-set will be ported over to the new HD DirecTiVo. As Tom has said before, SWM is more of a hardware thing, so I see no reason why this wouldn't be easy, and since the KA satellites and MPEG4 decoding is as well, the main issue to me would be the interactive features. Given DirecTV's promotion of Sunday Ticket's interactive features, Nascar HotPass, US Open features, GameLounge, etc, I can see DirecTV demanding support of their Interactive Features. There are also other features from DirecTV that they may desire for TiVo to support, but since some of these features are of a CE nature, I'll leave it out of this thread.

Now, I'm not saying that the new HD DirecTiVo will be early, I'm not even saying that it won't be released on December 31, 2009, but I do expect them deliver in 2H 2009, regardless of how foolish it may make me appear.

~Alan


----------



## Tom Robertson

rahlquist said:


> But surely D* will have to sign off on it.


Absolutely. But they aren't promising nor developing to a delivery time. TiVo is.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ashtonian

lovswr said:


> This is what I want to know also. From a marketing stand point this is horrible. The Tivo brand is ubiquitous with the DVR & D* had finally gotten their own in house brand as just about established.
> 
> Now this.
> 
> They need to make all D* DVR's branded as Tivo or not. So will we get DLB & MRV on the new box? Will they continue to develop as fast as they have been on the old in house boxes. I hate it when companies basically change their strategies like this. It takes a lot of time (years) & money (millions to billions) to change branding like this.
> 
> Think New Coke fiasco (but of course on a mush smaller scale).


Pick one...

MRV	Machine Readable Visa (immigration)
MRV Magnetic Resonance Venogram
MRV	Maintenance Requirements - Valves
MRV	Mammalian Orthoreovirus
MRV	Maneuvering Reentry Vehicle
MRV	Marketing Relationship/Value
MRV	Mineralnye Vody (Russia)
MRV	Miniature Reconnaissance Vehicle
MRV	Minimum Remaining Value
MRV	Minor Rule Violation (finance)
MRV	Mission Role Vehicle
MRV	Monitoring Reporting and Verification
MRV	Most-Recently Visited
MRV	Multi Radio Van
MRV	Multi-Radio Vehicle
MRV	Multi-Role Vessel
MRV	Multiple Room Viewing (Tivo)
MRV	Multiple/Missile Reentry Vehicle
MRV	Multipurpose Recreational Vehicle

then tell me which one you mean  oh there it is 3rd from bottom

avoiding acronyms when I can


----------



## texasbrit

Jeremy W said:


> Definitely new hardware. The HR2x is designed for the HR2x software, not Tivo software. They aren't going to try and shoehorn their stuff into it, and I'm sure DirecTV doesn't want them to either.


Yes, apparently it will be new hardware. This could be good news, because technology has moved on since the HR2x was designed, maybe we can have a faster processor and more memory for example, giving better performance. Of course the HR2x series could have new hardware by then also.
On the other hand, developing a new hardware AND software platform on the schedule that has been announced is a massive task.


----------



## bakerfall

If it is going to be new hardware, they are creating a massive set of problems for the HR users that are going to want this. People are either gong to be very discruntled because of having to pay for new boxes, or D* is going to eat a lot of hardware costs appeasing those customers. It will be interesting.


----------



## mikela

I think the real debate between D and Tivo is going to be weather or not to have all the Home Media Options that the tivo box currently has. If D allows it, it will without a doubt be the best DVR on the planet.


----------



## Lee L

texasbrit said:


> Yes, apparently it will be new hardware. This could be good news, because technology has moved on since the HR2x was designed, maybe we can have a faster processor and more memory for example, giving better performance. Of course the HR2x series could have new hardware by then also.
> *On the other hand, developing a new hardware AND software platform on the schedule that has been announced is a massive task.*


Unless DIrecTV is already working on something that can be adapted or is just far enough into the deisgn stage to have a head start but still allow TiVo time to write software for it. Or they could have already been working with TiVo and the announcement is only coming out now.


----------



## Sixto

mikela said:


> I think the real debate between D and Tivo is going to be weather or not to have all the Home Media Options that the tivo box currently has. If D allows it, it will without a doubt be the best DVR on the planet.


Had the opportunity to spend more time with a Series3 this morning ... the HMO is so nice ... the Photo's app is instant (in HD) ... the Music app is slick ... was playing around with the guide (two options TiVo guide and GRID guide) ... while year's ago I used the TiVo guide, the new GRID guide has proportional fonts, 8 channels per screen ... bounced back-and-forth between the two tuners (DLB), had forgotten how slick that was ... missing PiG is not good ... the youtube stuff is cool, was quick, can play any youtube video ... TiVo remote (the cool glo version) was instantaneous ...

and I'm what some would consider a HR2x fanboy ...

if they actually take most (if not all) of the current TiVo code and release on hardware at least as quick as the two year old Series3 hardware ... we should have an interesting late-2009 / early 2010 debate ...

In the meantime, the HR2x gets better each day ... will be an interesting horse race ...


----------



## Diana C

Seems to me, if I remember the Series 3 dissections that were done on TCF correctly, that the Series 3 hardware and software was highly modularized. IOW, the hardware stuff, as has been noted previously, should be easy to handle by simply popping in SWM capable satelllite tuners in place of the cablecard slots.

Likewise, all the software features are easily switched on and off (always were, but the ease of hacking them made it somewhat pointless - I've had MRV on my DirecTiVos for years now). The new systems are far more hacking resistant thanks to ROM loading of code (not many people will go to the trouble of changing a surface mounted chip).

As far as I can see, the only non-trivial issue facing a port is reintegration of the CAS technology and access card reader, and changes to the grid-based guide to look more like the standard DirecTV guide format.

I haven't read all 35 pages of this thread, so if I missed it, I apologize, but the one thing that jumped out at me was the comment in TiVo's SEC filing that referred to "substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo"...I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the monthly fee for HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo is higher than the current DVR fee.


----------



## wingrider01

Titan25 said:


> Seems to me, if I remember the Series 3 dissections that were done on TCF correctly, that the Series 3 hardware and software was highly modularized. IOW, the hardware stuff, as has been noted previously, should be easy to handle by simply popping in SWM capable satelllite tuners in place of the cablecard slots.
> 
> Likewise, all the software features are easily switched on and off (always were, but the ease of hacking them made it somewhat pointless - I've had MRV on my DirecTiVos for years now). The new systems are far more hacking resistant thanks to ROM loading of code (not many people will go to the trouble of changing a surface mounted chip).
> 
> As far as I can see, the only non-trivial issue facing a port is reintegration of the CAS technology and access card reader, and changes to the grid-based guide to look more like the standard DirecTV guide format.
> 
> I haven't read all 35 pages of this thread, so if I missed it, I apologize, but the one thing that jumped out at me was the comment in TiVo's SEC filing that referred to "substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo"...I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the monthly fee for HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo is higher than the current DVR fee.


Given the statement of concerning pricing on the alternate unit, chances are there will be a surcharge for the use of the new box. Will hazard some guesses that the monthly lease fee for the TIVO based unit will be 1 or 2 dollars higher that that of a HR2X box to cover the additional costs incurred. Or possiblely a 2 or 3 dollar surcharge in the DVR fee for those that have the TIVO based units on the account

Don't really think this will be a release layed down on top of a exiting platform, lean more towards a completely different set of hardware considering the directv unit wil still be the primary one supplied and the tive based unit will be an alternative choice of hardware.


----------



## harsh

Jeremy W said:


> Definitely new hardware. The HR2x is designed for the HR2x software, not Tivo software. They aren't going to try and shoehorn their stuff into it, and I'm sure DirecTV doesn't want them to either.


Hardware is typically not developed around software. It is the software that is developed around the hardware because software is flexible and hardware most certainly isn't.


DIRECTV TiVo press release said:


> Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo(R) service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform.


This sounds more like software for the existing hardware (although it doesn't let out that there might be enhancements).

Can you think of anything hardware-wise that TiVo receivers offer that the HR2x wouldn't be able to do in its current form?


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Absolutely. But they aren't promising nor developing to a delivery time. TiVo is.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Then based on their track record, don't expect this until 2010 at the earliest. After all, remember how long it took them to finally release their HD standalone unit for cable? And when they did, it was somwhere near a grand, which they eventually were forced to lower.


----------



## Sixto

Lord Vader said:


> Then based on their track record, don't expect this until 2010 at the earliest. After all, remember how long it took them to finally release their HD standalone unit for cable? And when they did, it was somwhere near a grand, which they eventually were forced to lower.


You take a Series 3 box and add DirecTV satellite tuners which they've already done before. Yep, you now have MPEG4 and SWM but this is not hard. They might even have a prototype by CES. If they really wanted to, DirecTV enable a Series3 (as-is), this is not hard.

Now the hard part may be adding all the HR2x specific stuff (DOD, Interative, ...).

Or if they want the TiVo code on HR2x hardware. That may take quite a bit of time.

Put the Series3 team with the team that has previous experience with DirecTV. Geez, they got 2 million boxes running today with access card code and satellite tuner code.

This is not hard if done right.


----------



## dbmaven

rahvin said:


> DirecTV was already protected permanently from Lawsuit by Tivo. When they purchased the remains of ReplayTV from Denon-Marantz they purchased the ReplayTV patents and cross-patent sharing arrangement that Tivo and ReplayTV did to settle their lawsuits against each other. That cross license agreement they purchased bought them PERMANENT protection from Tivo and most importantly made it so they were the ONLY provider protected from Tivo's patents. I suspected at the time that it meant that DTV had decided they were never going to license Tivo again, otherwise why spend the 7 million to buy software you will never use.


That appears to be a subject of considerable debate.

A pretty good analysis of the situation from December 2007 can be found at TechnologyInnovator.

Now that the appeals court has ruled in favor of TiVO (in the Dish case) it makes things even more interesting. And the timing of this (DirecTV) announcment only adds to that.

I'd love to see the actual wording in this new agreement between DirecTV and TiVO. It would not surprise me one bit to find that there's some sort of escape clause or poison pill (or both) that gets activated should another company acquire control of TiVO. And given that DirecTV has already purchased ReplayTV (and although the timeline is short, hasn't appeared to do anything with it to this point) - the possibility raised at the end of the linked article is most intriguing:


> Another option of course is for DirecTV to buy TiVo, and unify the intellectual property with ReplayTV, and hold the world to ransom on all the DVR patents.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Lord Vader said:


> Then based on their track record, don't expect this until 2010 at the earliest. After all, remember how long it took them to finally release their HD standalone unit for cable? And when they did, it was somwhere near a grand, which they eventually were forced to lower.


With the TiVo Series 3 (the HD stand-alone unit you're referring to), they had to deal with using CableCards, and above all else, they had to deal with CableLabs. Now, I'm not saying that this is what took them so long to release the TiVo Series 3, but you can bet your sweet bippy that it took up a good portion of the time. Read any story involving technology and CableLabs, and I'll bet you see a track record of that technology being slow in getting released.

As for the price, I got my TiVo Series 3 for $399 (after $200 rebate) less than a year after release. DirecTV wanted to charge me $299 just to LEASE the HR20, so while I agree with you that it was high, it's not like it was astronomically higher.

Out of curiosity, does anyone remember what DirecTV was charging for the HR20 when it came out to the people that wanted to buy instead of lease?

~Alan


----------



## bonscott87

Sixto said:


> You take a Series 3 box and add DirecTV satellite tuners which they've already done before. Yep, you now have MPEG4 and SWM but this is not hard. They might even have a prototype by CES. If they really wanted to, DirecTV enable a Series3 (as-is), this is not hard.
> 
> Now the hard part may be adding all the HR2x specific stuff (DOD, Interative, ...).
> 
> Or if they want the TiVo code on HR2x hardware. That may take quite a bit of time.
> 
> Put the Series3 team with the team that has previous experience with DirecTV. Geez, they got 2 million boxes running today with access card code and satellite tuner code.
> 
> This is not hard if done right.


Welllll, we *could* say the exact same thing about Tivo putting their software on the Comcast boxes. And that was delayed at least a year, maybe two, and still doesn't work right. It's not all that hard, is it?


----------



## ironwood

Those new TIVOs are better be faster than their previous models. I still have an old TIVO and I tell ya that thing is a dinosaurus comparing to DVR. Very annoying how slow it is.


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> Welllll, we *could* say the exact same thing about Tivo putting their software on the Comcast boxes. And that was delayed at least a year, maybe two, and still doesn't work right. It's not all that hard, is it?


Not true. 

All reading here and elsewhere says the complete opposite. That's why I commented the way I did.

TiVo had zero experience with Comcast.

TiVo had zero experience with the Motorola hardware.

TiVo had zero experience with OCAP. Lots of special things needed to be done.

From reading about it, it's was a totally different and much more difficult situation.

Taking the existing Series3 box (which has been out for 2+ years) and adding satellite tuners (which they have experience with for 5+ years) might not be very hard at all.

And yes, they need to add all the DirecTV HR2x requirements which will take a while. A long while.

But getting the base TiVo Series3 code working could be very easy to do.

This is only if TiVo is allowed to use hardware equivalent (or better) then the Series3.

Yep, a chance that this may be a disaster, but maybe a much higher chance that this might be a huge success.

Time will tell ...


----------



## Alan Gordon

bonscott87 said:


> Welllll, we *could* say the exact same thing about Tivo putting their software on the Comcast boxes. And that was delayed at least a year, maybe two, and still doesn't work right. It's not all that hard, is it?


Actually, I would think that putting the TiVo software on the Comcast boxes would be extremely hard. I would think that putting the TiVo software on the HR2x boxes would be hard as well, but less so that the Comcast boxes.

I mean, seriously, have you SEEN some of these boxes they're installing this software in... and if you view the GUI pictures I linked to earlier in this thread of the ComcasTiVo, you'll see that they "dumbed" down the GUI... most likely to be less memory intensive. Add in the fact that they had to work with CableLabs (again), I'm somewhat surprised ComcasTiVo is out now, and works as well as it does.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> Actually, I would think that putting the TiVo software on the Comcast boxes would be extremely hard. I would think that putting the TiVo software on the HR2x boxes would be hard as well, but less so that the Comcast boxes.
> 
> I mean, seriously, have you SEEN some of these boxes they're installing this software in... and if you view the GUI pictures I linked to earlier in this thread of the ComcasTiVo, you'll see that they "dumbed" down the GUI... most likely to be less memory intensive. Add in the fact that they had to work with CableLabs (again), I'm somewhat surprised ComcasTiVo is out now, and works as well as it does.
> 
> ~Alan


Alan,

It appears that you have both an HR2x and Series3 in production every day.

If that Series3 stayed exactly as-is, all the some functions, but all the content was from DirecTV (satellite tuners) and you had the HR2x interactive features, and Amazon Unbox was replaced with DirecTV-on-Demand ...

What would be your thoughts?


----------



## harsh

For future reference, Unbox is out. Amazon renamed the product to the very catchy _Amazon Video on Demand_.


Amazon VoD said:


> Where's Unbox?
> 
> We've got a new look and a new name: Amazon Video On Demand. Now you can instantly watch TV shows and movies online as well as download to your Unbox player and TiVo. Access your previous purchases using Your Video Library.


----------



## wesmills

Anecdote: I called DirecTV today to active a HR10-250 (OTA HD is still better than 0 HD), and the rep mentioned--before I had any chance to ask--these quotes: "We will be introducing a brand new DirecTV HD DVR with TiVo in the coming months." I answered positively, and she said, "yeah, we're very excited about TiVo coming back." What's interesting is she really did sound excited; not TiVoCommunity excited, but still happy nonetheless. Whether she was just trying real hard (I was activating a TiVo unit, after all) or it was genuine, I'll never know. Oh, and when I said that I hadn't changed to HD because I wanted TiVo, she replied "We've heard that often, and I've gotten it on a few support calls." (She answered the phone as "DirecTV technical support.")

Still a good sign. The unit's already being promoted to existing subs when reasonable. Here's hoping it's sooner than later.


----------



## rahlquist

wesmills said:


> Anecdote: I called DirecTV today to active a HR10-250 (OTA HD is still better than 0 HD), and the rep mentioned--before I had any chance to ask--these quotes: "We will be introducing a brand new DirecTV HD DVR with TiVo in the coming months."
> 
> Still a good sign. The unit's already being promoted to existing subs when reasonable. Here's hoping it's sooner than later.


Hmm they shouldn't be pimping it yet, I am sure they are already getting calls requesting it.


----------



## mp11

Is it possible this new Tivo will be out sooner than most people think? Maybe both teams have been working on it *before* the official word? Would be a nice surprise.


----------



## rahlquist

mp11 said:


> Is it possible this new Tivo will be out sooner than most people think? Maybe both teams have been working on it *before* the official word? Would be a nice surprise.


Not likely I think, since deals like this require SEC filings and thats likely the only reason we heard early.


----------



## Maruuk

This is great news. Can't wait to chuck my HR21 off a cliff.


----------



## Sixto

Was once involved with a similar situation where a "secondary" product was brought to market to fill a gap. Certain customers loved the "secondary" solution.

It died after about a year.

The development team for the "secondary" solution was always excited to add new features but mostly were denied because upper management never wanted to hurt the marketing of the "primary" product.

Eventually the development team for the "secondary" solution got totally disgusted, mostly quit, and the product eventually went away.

Be interesting in the future when TiVo has some new cool wiz-bang feature and they're told "no" because they're not the golden "primary" product.

Maybe never happen but I've lived it and you're looking over your shoulder every day.

It only works if TiVo is given free reign to develop the best solution and only gets limited by something that obviously would hurt DirecTV.

We'll see ...


----------



## StephenT

Sixto said:


> Alan,
> 
> It appears that you have both an HR2x and Series3 in production every day.
> 
> If that Series3 stayed exactly as-is, all the some functions, but all the content was from DirecTV (satellite tuners) and you had the HR2x interactive features, and Amazon Unbox was replaced with DirecTV-on-Demand ...
> 
> What would be your thoughts?


I also have an HR21 and a TiVo HD (for OTA only) in use everyday. A D* capable receiver with the TiVo HD software would make me do the dance of joy.


----------



## mp11

Maruuk said:


> This is great news. Can't wait to chuck my HR21 off a cliff.


I would take my HR21 and it's illegitimate companion the AM21, place them on my driveway, pull up a chair and have my wife slowly...ever so slowly, drive my truck over them. Ahhhh the extasy of it.


----------



## DarinC

Sixto said:


> The development team for the "secondary" solution was always excited to add new features but mostly were denied because upper management never wanted to hurt the marketing of the "primary" product.


Sounds kind of like the relationship between TiVo and DirecTV the first time, except TiVo _was_ the primary product.


----------



## wingrider01

mp11 said:


> I would take my HR21 and it's illegitimate companion the AM21, place them on my driveway, pull up a chair and have my wife slowly...ever so slowly, drive my truck over them. Ahhhh the extasy of it.


Before or after your write them the check to pay for the unit you destroyed?


----------



## mp11

wingrider01 said:


> Before or after your write them the check to pay for the unit you destroyed?


It was a joke. Sheesh! :grin:


----------



## stogie5150

mp11 said:


> It was a joke. Sheesh! :grin:


At one point I would have gladly paid for my HR20 if I could have put a .44 Magnum hole right in the middle of it AND got to mail it back.:lol:

TIVO coming back could not be better news for this household. I said, and, more importantly, she-who-pays-the-bills said, the *ONLY* way Directv enters the house again is through a TIVO. 

I would be MORE than satisifed if it was JUST a HD DVR. No bells and whistles, just a solid, reliable DVR that I don't have to watch like a hawk in case it misses something.
Just this last week I got to use a SD DTIVO again while I was evacuated due to Gustav, and I quickly realized why I was SO unhappy with the HR20. :nono:

THIS is what Directv had to do to get me, once a 11 year sub who left due to the HR20 debacle, to even consider returning. And to their credit, incredibly, they listened. Only question is:

*WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG, DIRECTV?*


----------



## Lord Vader

Alan Gordon said:


> With the TiVo Series 3 (the HD stand-alone unit you're referring to), they had to deal with using CableCards, and above all else, they had to deal with CableLabs. Now, I'm not saying that this is what took them so long to release the TiVo Series 3, but you can bet your sweet bippy that it took up a good portion of the time. Read any story involving technology and CableLabs, and I'll bet you see a track record of that technology being slow in getting released.
> 
> As for the price, I got my TiVo Series 3 for $399 (after $200 rebate) less than a year after release. DirecTV wanted to charge me $299 just to LEASE the HR20, so while I agree with you that it was high, it's not like it was astronomically higher.
> 
> Out of curiosity, does anyone remember what DirecTV was charging for the HR20 when it came out to the people that wanted to buy instead of lease?
> 
> ~Alan


While you may have paid that little for it, I did find info that confirmed what I thought: those things were selling for $799 when they were first introduced (some places were a little higher, some a little lower).


----------



## turey22

all i hope for is for you guys NOT to be diappointed when it comes out...not just because its going to be tivo software it doesnt mean it will be just like all the other tivo's. i might get one just to have one to try it out but i, like some, like my hr20-700. When it comes out, if it does when planned, i hope, i hope it has MRV.


----------



## turey22

stogie5150 said:


> At one point I would have gladly paid for my HR20 if I could have put a .44 Magnum hole right in the middle of it AND got to mail it back.:lol:
> 
> TIVO coming back could not be better news for this household. I said, and, more importantly, she-who-pays-the-bills said, the *ONLY* way Directv enters the house again is through a TIVO.
> 
> I would be MORE than satisifed if it was JUST a HD DVR. No bells and whistles, just a solid, reliable DVR that I don't have to watch like a hawk in case it misses something.
> Just this last week I got to use a SD DTIVO again while I was evacuated due to Gustav, and I quickly realized why I was SO unhappy with the HR20. :nono:
> 
> THIS is what Directv had to do to get me, once a 11 year sub who left due to the HR20 debacle, to even consider returning. And to their credit, incredibly, they listened. Only question is:
> 
> *WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG, DIRECTV?*


"she who pays the bills" haha


----------



## mstbone67a

Holy crap batman!! This is exciting.. just got a second LCD in the house and man I love my tivo-directv SD receivers and had this slow HR21 If only they fixed the software menu's etc it wouldnt be so dang bad.. and DLB!! duh..


----------



## mp11

stogie5150 said:


> THIS is what Directv had to do to get me, once a 11 year sub who left due to the HR20 debacle, to even consider returning.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in the same boat ur in. The last year has been nothing but a nightmare. And I understand that some people have no problems with it. But my experience with the HR series has been horrible. My contract ends next summer, and this news couldn't have come at a better time. To show how desparate I was, my plans were to leave Directv and switch to cable! And the main reason was for Tivo. However...this new Tivo must have OTA tuner or it's a no go for me.
Click to expand...


----------



## NFLnut

:joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy:

Well .. obviously after 37+ pages, I am late to the "party," but after two years of dealing with the mumblin', stumblin' , and bumblin' HR20, I couldn't be HAPPIER!!

I hope this DVR incorporates some of the "promising" features .. like being able to view "Now Playing" and set up a recording without leaving Live TV or the recording you're watching, and maybe even DoD, Media Share, etc .. but UNLIKE the HR20, it WILL ACTUALLY WORK!!

.. but dittos on the OTA tuner .. it **MUST** have OTA! I live in heavy-rain country, and for the occasions where I get rain fade INCLUDING HURRICANES I absolutely MUST HAVE OTA!!

Also .. LET'S GET RID OF THE LEASING NONSENSE! I prefer to buy my DirecTiVo as I have in the past! I don't want to pay for them FOREVER, and when I own them, I can rip their little guts apart and add a new hard drive when the internal drive goes bad (which I've had to do many times over the last 8 years of owning TiVos).


----------



## rgreenpc

MY wish list would be -
2 OTA tuners and
Shared recordings (so I could have 2 of these and have them share recordings from the other box)


----------



## turey22

WHY doesnt the ota signal go out during a storm?


----------



## mp11

turey22 said:


> WHY doesnt the ota signal go out during a storm?


Because it receives off of an antenna...not a rain susceptible dish.

Hopefully Directv and Tivo dont let this feature slip by.


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## MrDad0330

Well, now I have a delima. When I purchase my new Samsung 52" LCD HDTV this week, I was going to purchase a HR22-100 at BB. Now knowing a TIVO unit may be coming out in 2009, I may just purchase a H series for my living room Olevia and move my HR20-100 into my family room where we will do most of our watching. I can live without the DVR in the living room for the time being and save $100. When the "D" Tivo comes out, I would go for it. I miss my Tivo's vs the HR-100 but in all honesty, my HR has been solid for me since I got it in June 2007. But the Tivo platform I prefer and DLB.


----------



## MrDad0330

One other thing, I got rid of my land line phone. This is not an issue for my HR20 as i have it connected on line...BUT, will the new series Tivo have that capability or will it require a phone line? Also, are the H series non dvr units that "D" sells able to connect via the internet like the HR series?


----------



## NFLnut

mp11 said:


> Because it receives off of an antenna...not a rain suseptible dish.
> 
> Hopefully Directv and Tivo dont let this feature slip by.


Is there any belief that it WON'T?


----------



## photostudent

turey22 said:


> WHY doesnt the ota signal go out during a storm?


Local Transmitters are much more powerful and thousands of miles closer!


----------



## Lord Vader

It's also a different type of signal, which is why it can go through walls and buildings. Satellite signals cannot.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Lord Vader said:


> While you may have paid that little for it, I did find info that confirmed what I thought: those things were selling for $799 when they were first introduced (some places were a little higher, some a little lower).


This is true, my point was simply that deals could eventually be had on it. Granted, the $399 deals were only made a couple of times, but $599 isn't too far from what DirecTV wanted to charge people for BUYING the HR20.

Of course, all this is kind of pointless as I'm not disagreeing that the TiVo Series 3 was overpriced.

~Alan


----------



## qprhooligan

Sweet, I love Tivo, hate DTV DVR's.


----------



## adam1115

texasbrit said:


> Yes, apparently it will be new hardware. This could be good news, because technology has moved on since the HR2x was designed, maybe we can have a faster processor and more memory for example, giving better performance. Of course the HR2x series could have new hardware by then also.
> On the other hand, developing a new hardware AND software platform on the schedule that has been announced is a massive task.


They already have a hardware platform. A good percentage of the engineering on the hardware side AND software is developed.

They've also designed the previous generation TiVo's, so they know the basics of the satellite side too.

They start with a TiVo HD, build in sat tuners.

I'm not saying it's easy, but they aren't starting with a blank slate either...


----------



## wesmills

turey22 said:


> all i hope for is for you guys NOT to be diappointed when it comes out...not just because its going to be tivo software it doesnt mean it will be just like all the other tivo's. i might get one just to have one to try it out but i, like some, like my hr20-700. When it comes out, if it does when planned, i hope, i hope it has MRV.


Honestly, if this new unit is exactly the same as the HR10-250, but with SWM and MPEG4 capability, I'd go out and buy three right now. Anything else, from my point of view, will be icing on the cake (and I have every hope there will be _lots_ of icing on this cake).


----------



## turey22

wesmills said:


> Honestly, if this new unit is exactly the same as the HR10-250, but with SWM and MPEG4 capability, I'd go out and buy three right now. Anything else, from my point of view, will be icing on the cake (and I have every hope there will be _lots_ of icing on this cake).


I love cake ha


----------



## wesmills

turey22 said:


> I love cake ha


My favorite kind of cake: Instant Cake, with HD toppings.

OOPS, I've said too much! :eek2:

:lol: :hurah:


----------



## dieseladdict

I can't wait for the new TiVo. I'll be in line to trade in one of my HR20s for a TiVo based DVR. 

My old ones are dead and I still miss them.


----------



## turey22

No really instant cake isnt that bad...I've never had a HR10-250 so i really dont know how good that reciever was but i have a R10 and i liked the HR20 better so far...maybe if it was in hd i would like it better


----------



## harsh

adam1115 said:


> They already have a hardware platform.


Who is "they"? The press release states in no uncertain terms that the unit will be based on "DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform". DIRECTV hasn't been able to prove that it can do all of the things that a TiVo is expected to do so at the very least, they've got to figure out how to make things like MRV and DLB a reality.


> A good percentage of the engineering on the hardware side AND software is developed.


There is absolutely no indication that the software is anywhere along in the process.


> They've also designed the previous generation TiVo's, so they know the basics of the satellite side too.


Again, who is this "they" that you speak so highly of? DIRECTV isn't going to be of much help as their involvement in the HR10 was probably limited at best and TiVo hasn't necessarily kept all of the resources that they once had when they were doing the HR10. Look how long the subsequent HR10 updates have taken to get out and how much damage they've done.


> They start with a TiVo HD, build in sat tuners.


That's is not what the press release said. It didn't say much, but it did contraindicate what you're asserting.


> I'm not saying it's easy, but they aren't starting with a blank slate either...


Unless TiVo has been working on developing for the HR2x platform for a while already, they're absolutely starting with a clean slate with respect to the software to connect the HR2x hardware and low-level code to their user experience.


----------



## gregjones

harsh said:


> ...they're absolutely starting with a clean slate with respect to the software to connect the HR2x hardware and low-level code to their user experience.


I would agree with the rest, but not this part. The great majority of the code that separates the Tivo software from the HR2x software is largely hardware-independent. From a programming standpoint, the HR2x platform is not so drastically different from the HR10 hardware. The parts that are different is more than likely where you will see specific knowledge transfer from DirecTV to Tivo on this. The hardware differences are small enough to be handled by rewriting the low-level libraries (or getting them from DirecTV). The actual user-interface (what makes a Tivo a Tivo) has almost nothing to do with the hardware on which it is run.

I expect the front-end code to be largely reusable. I expect the back-end changes to be helped by transfer of knowledge. The database management piece in the middle could be almost unchanged.


----------



## Jhon69

stogie5150 said:


> At one point I would have gladly paid for my HR20 if I could have put a .44 Magnum hole right in the middle of it AND got to mail it back.:lol:
> 
> TIVO coming back could not be better news for this household. I said, and, more importantly, she-who-pays-the-bills said, the *ONLY* way Directv enters the house again is through a TIVO.
> 
> I would be MORE than satisifed if it was JUST a HD DVR. No bells and whistles, just a solid, reliable DVR that I don't have to watch like a hawk in case it misses something.
> Just this last week I got to use a SD DTIVO again while I was evacuated due to Gustav, and I quickly realized why I was SO unhappy with the HR20. :nono:
> 
> THIS is what Directv had to do to get me, once a 11 year sub who left due to the HR20 debacle, to even consider returning. And to their credit, incredibly, they listened. Only question is:
> 
> *WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG, DIRECTV?*


Well there was this guy named Rupert.


----------



## Maruuk

The difference between Tivo engineers working with a clean slate and those Watney's-sucking dole-grabbing ex-Lucas Electrics Brit malingerers who screwed up the D* product is the difference between Apple and Microshaft. One delights, works and is intuitive. The other bites, is full of jerks, and is effluent-ive.


----------



## sattec

isn't there a lawsuit pending between e* and tivo? and isn't a possible resolution to the lawsuit is for e* to buy tivo?


----------



## Jhon69

DarinC said:


> Sounds kind of like the relationship between TiVo and DirecTV the first time, except TiVo _was_ the primary product.


Exactly!.And that should be the main reason DirecTV should offer 2 type of DVRs.The DVR+ and DirecTivo.:sure:


----------



## wingrider01

Maruuk said:


> The difference between Tivo engineers working with a clean slate and those Watney's-sucking dole-grabbing ex-Lucas Electrics Brit malingerers who screwed up the D* product is the difference between Apple and Microshaft. One delights, works and is intuitive. The other bites, is full of jerks, and is effluent-ive.


can you explain this is something closer to real language, not really sure what you are trying to rant about


----------



## dheiskel

I miss dual live buffers, however I think both the standard def tivo's and the old high def tivo's had at least two serious hardware deficiencies. And I think the DirecTV user interface is actually better than Tivo's.

1. My HR21 is significantly quieter than either tivo. I have modified my tivo's with non stock fans and rubber hard drive mounts to get them as quiet as the HR 21!

2. I use the USB based RS232 interface to the HR21 to control it without having to use an IR flasher, I kind of doubt that Tivo will support this, since they have never had this feature on any other hardware. If tivo offers control via TCP/IP that would be fine, but you had to hack your tivo to do this on the directv versions.

3. I hated the original user interface on the HR20/HR21 however the latest is actually quite good, and in some respects better than Tivo's, with the one glaring exception of dual live buffer(s).

Finally I always felt the Tivo's were a little under powered in the CPU department. If they are going to charge a premium for a DirecTV Tivo it should have enough cpu horsepower to make the user interface very snappy. The Tivo boot time was always very slooooooooow, hopefully a faster cpu might make the boot time better also.


----------



## turey22

Maruuk said:


> The difference between Tivo engineers working with a clean slate and those Watney's-sucking dole-grabbing ex-Lucas Electrics Brit malingerers who screwed up the D* product is the difference between Apple and Microshaft. One delights, works and is intuitive. The other bites, is full of jerks, and is effluent-ive.


Harsh :nono2:


----------



## timlinca

I am so freaking happy at this news I joined the forum just to say so. No more blank recordings, no more recordings starting late due to clock issues, no more losing guide data for 1/3 my channels...

Although I have both an HR10 and an HR21, I forced myself to use the HR21 all last season as my main recorder relying on it to catch all of the shows. It worked fairly well but did suffer from the above listed problems more than it should.

So, when it comes out, I'm in. I'll send back my "free" HR21, thank them very much for letting me use it for a year, and pay them whatever they want for the new TiVo...

Tim


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Alan,
> 
> It appears that you have both an HR2x and Series3 in production every day.
> 
> If that Series3 stayed exactly as-is, all the some functions, but all the content was from DirecTV (satellite tuners) and you had the HR2x interactive features, and Amazon Unbox was replaced with DirecTV-on-Demand ...
> 
> What would be your thoughts?


If your "hypothetical" TiVo box was available now, and I had a choice between it and the HR20-700, I'd choose the "hypothetical" box... NO QUESTION! Of course, I'd most likely have to wait until the first of the year due to budget concerns, BUT since we're talking hypotheticals, I could "hypothetically" win the lottery, and then money wouldn't be an issue.  

Of course, I'd honestly take the Series 3 without the interactive features and DirecTV-On-Demand as I really don't use either. DirecTV's most inventive uses for the Interactive Features (at this time) have been for sports-based uses, and I'm not really a sports fan, and GameLounge which I've only played a few times during Freeviews as I'm not paying $5 a month for GameLounge when I have a PS3 with games with better graphics, better sound, and a computer where I can play many of the games on GameLounge free... heck, my TiVo Series 3 has some games on it free. DirecTV-On-Demand is a cool feature and all, but I've had DirecTV-On-Demand for years, they just call it a DVR instead of DirecTV-On-Demand. I admit that the service would be quite useful for people who have conflicting recordings, but the majority of DOD channels are cable channels who have a tendency to repeat airings multiple times during the week, and since I use my HR20 for HD viewing (rarely use it for SD viewing), I'd much rather wait and record it on the channel in HD versus downloading it in HD on my 3mbps. I would be HIGHLY interested in NBC-On-Demand since they are less apt to re-air programming than the cable channels, BUT the charges make me lose interest in it. Now, I understand there are people out there who USE and LOVE these features, and I hope (and assume given DirecTV's push of these features) that the TiVo will have them, I'm simply stating that they mean very little to me.

THAT BEING SAID, I'm not sure what my plans for the new DirecTiVo HD will be as there is still too much left unknown. For instance:


*PRICING:* We know it's going to more expensive, but how much? Will the hardware be leased or purchased? How much for it purchased/leased? How much will the monthly fee be? Will the increase in fee be per account, or per DVR?


*FEATURES (HARDWARE):* Some of the GREATEST things DirecTV has come up with in the last few years are the use of KA satellites, SWM, and eSATA hookups, and the ability to forego the phone line. We know that the TiVo will obviously be compatible with the KA satellites (and MPEG4 of course), but what about SWM? Considering that DirecTV will be supporting these boxes, I suspect it will, but I'll still be waiting for confirmation. TiVo Series 3 supports eSATA hookups for additional storage as does the HR2x series, so I'm assuming that DirecTV won't force TiVo to do away with this feature, but (as I said previously) I'm not happy with the way TiVo supports the eSATA hookup. It's been a while since I checked on it, so perhaps TiVo has changed the way their eSATA hookup works, but last I checked, I didn't care for it. If I remember correctly (no one quote me on this), CableLabs is responsible for forcing TiVo to support eSATA in that way, so hopefully DirecTV will allow TiVo to use eSATA like DirecTV does. Given that the TiVo Series 3 (and other TiVo stand-alones) can use the network to connect instead of a phone line and that DirecTV currently allows this on their HR2x series, I'm hoping that DirecTV won't force TiVo to disable this feature on the new DirecTiVo HD. I also like the RF Remote feature on the HR2x, but my experience with it hasn't been that hot. It works great in the same room, and fine in a couple of other rooms away, but if I go in one room (probably about 15 feet away from the HR20) and close the door (and it's a cheap door), the RF remote doesn't work very well. Go a little farther in the house and it doesn't work at all. Comparing that to my Uncle's RF remote that he used to have with his BUD (Big Ugly Dish) system where he could go WAY OUT in his yard and the remote would STILL work like a charm, or the Blu-ray remote that comes with my PS3 (which uses Bluetooth), and the RF feature is kind of a let-down.


*FEATURES (SOFTWARE):* THIS IS THE GREAT UNKNOWN! As I said above, a DirecTiVo HD with the feature set of the TiVo Series 3 (as it stands today)against the HR20 (as it stands today) isn't a contest. A DirecTiVo HD with the feature set of the TiVo Series 3 a year from now vs. the HR20 with the feature set of a year from now, I don't know.

As it stands today, the only features I would miss from my HR20 is the ability to set overlapping recordings on a single tuner, see conflicts in the To Do List, Recording Defaults, and Bookmarks. I briefly had Caller ID after I got my HR20 and that was nice, but after we got "Topless" DSL, Caller ID isn't necessary. I like the PIG, but that really isn't a big deal to me as I rarely watch live TV, but given TiVo's inclusion of PIG in the ComcasTiVo, it's possible DirecTV could get TiVo to do a MODIFIED DirecTV guide in which PIG is there. Hopefully, if DirecTV gets TiVo to offer a PIL (*P*icture-*I*n-Play*L*ist), or other screens, they will offer an option to turn it off (for those of us who HATE PIL). On the other hand, there are MANY features that my HR10-250 (and SD DirecTiVos) had that I miss every time I use my HR20, and even more features my TiVo Series 3 has that my HR20 lacks. Many of them I've mentioned over and over, so I won't get into that here.

However, what tomorrow will bring, I don't know. DirecTV has improved the HR20 so much from it's release to the time I got it, and from the time I got it, to today, and they are still going at it, so by this time next year, I might prefer the feature-set of the HR20. That being said, as I posted earlier in this thread, TiVo recently updated my TiVo Series 3 with their Summer Update. New features/enhancements included some things the HR20 already did, so it's possible that TiVo could do some of the features I like about the HR20 ("conflicts" in the To Do List would be easy, as would "Recording Defaults", and given that some studios are doing the "Bookmark" feature for Blu-ray, I would imagine this could eventually make it's way to TiVo as well).


*NONSENSICAL RAMBLINGS:* While not really a influence on my decision either way, I did want to state something. While the LCD screen on my TiVo Series 3 is VERY cool, I actually prefer the exterior look of the HR2x series. I like the gloss look of the TiVo Series 3 over the plastic look of my HR20, but doesn't some of the HR2x series have a glossy exterior? Besides, given that TiVo has now moved to the TiVo HD exterior design, I STRONGLY prefer the look of the HR2x series. Since DirecTV is intending on marketing these boxes, hopefully DirecTV will keep the general look of their HD DVR boxes with only the addition of a "DirecTV Central" button and a TiVo logo.

While I'm not a "hater" of the DirecTV remote (other than my RF issues mentioned above), I would enjoy getting the old "Peanut" back. Since TiVo is positioning their service as a premium, perhaps they will offer a variation of the TiVo Series 3/TiVo HD XL remote (backlit, and they shifted a couple of buttons around) as I like it a LOT. It's got a nice heft to it, I like the position of some of the buttons compared to other TiVo remotes. All they need to do is add a red, green, blue and yellow button to it (similar to the addition of buttons to the ComcasTiVo remote) and it's good to go. Of course, if they wanted to add RF or Bluetooth capabilities to it, I'm fine with that as well! 

As I said above though, I'm still not sure what my choice will be, but as far as I'm concerned, the TiVo announcement put DirecTV on notice that they are on a countdown until the release of the DirecTiVo HD to keep me on the DirecTV+ GUI and they better bring their "A" game as it's their game to win, and TiVo's to lose. That may seem "harsh" (not the poster, the word), but I'm not rooting for either one. If the threat of competition lights a fire under DirecTV's butt to fix some of the issues I have with the HR2x and surpass them, I'll GLADLY accept the cheaper priced service.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

NFLnut said:


> Is there any belief that it WON'T?


Since TiVo is marketing the DirecTiVo HD as a "PREMIUM" product, hopefully they have enough sense to realize that OTA is being treated (these days) as a "PREMIUM" feature and include it.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

harsh said:


> Who is "they"? The press release states in no uncertain terms that the unit will be based on "DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform".





Press Release said:


> Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform.


Good point!

However, word has it (from other sites) that TiVo, most likely wanting to steer clear of potential ComcasTiVo debacles, are wanting to develop the new DirecTiVo HD on new hardware.

I also note this line from the press release:



Press Release said:


> announced today that they have extended their current agreement, *which includes the development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR* featuring the TiVo® service, as well as the extension of mutual intellectual property arrangements.


That implies, to me, new hardware, but maybe I'm misunderstanding that.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> great post ..


Excellent thoughtful post.

Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly compare.


----------



## adam1115

harsh said:


> Who is "they"?


TiVo.



harsh said:


> The press release states in no uncertain terms that the unit will be based on "DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform". That's is not what the press release said. It didn't say much, but it did contraindicate what you're asserting.Unless TiVo has been working on developing for the HR2x platform for a while already, they're absolutely starting with a clean slate with respect to the software to connect the HR2x hardware and low-level code to their user experience.


I don't buy it. The press release is vague and a marketing piece.

I really doubt TiVo is going to try and shoehorn their software into an HR20.

I could be wrong and hope I'm not.


----------



## Doug Brott

Alan Gordon said:


> That implies, to me, new hardware, but maybe I'm misunderstanding that.


My understanding is that TiVo will be using the HR2x platform .. we should know more in 12 to 18 months ..


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> My understanding is that TiVo will be using the HR2x platform .. we should know more in 12 to 18 months ..


My guess is we'll possibly know by CES which hardware they're using ...

Something may slip out ... Geez, they better know by CES if they're using HR2x hardware or not ... 4 months from now ...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Excellent thoughtful post.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly compare.


I meant to do it yesterday, but time flies...



Doug Brott said:


> My understanding is that TiVo will be using the HR2x platform .. we should know more in 12 to 18 months ..


Potentially disappointing news if true...

... and certainly does make the 2H 2009 estimate to be overly-ambitious.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

If I was in charge ... get the team in the room ... and here's the goal ... go get em ... 

Keep Existing TiVo HD features:

Same or better performance then TiVo HD XL
Dual-Live-Buffers (DLB)
Multi-Room-Viewing (MRV) for both SD and HD
Tivo-to-Go (TTG) for both SD and HD (with free TiVo Desktop software) to laptops/iPod/Mac/PSP
Home Media Option (HMO) with Photos (in HD), Music, and Video (with free TiVo Desktop software)
Internet based Music, Photos / Video (Picassa, Photobucket, One True Media, Rhapsody, Live365, Podcaster, ...)
KidZone
Universal Swivel Search
Wishlist Search
TiVo Suggestions
You Tube (be able to search and view any You Tube Video)
Choice of "Tivo" guide or "Grid" guide
eSATA support
TiVo Wireless Support
Ability of remote to power on/off both TV and Home Theater Receiver with one press
That's all the existing stuff that works 100% today.

Then add the DirecTV necessary support:

Satellite dual tuner support
MPEG4 HD
SWM
Dish guided setup
And then the critical DirecTV features:

DirecTV-on-Demand (DoD)
Interactive capabilities
New Tivo Peanut Remote with Red, Green, Yellow, Blue buttons
1080p Support (for movies)
Take the Tivo HD XL box, add the satellite tuner experience from the HR10, add SWM support, and get DoD and interactive done ... within 12 months.

Go get em ... 

And in the meantime, enjoy the robust HR2x (it's been rock solid here!) ...

Good battle ahead ...


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> My understanding is that TiVo will be using the HR2x platform .. we should know more in 12 to 18 months ..


Yea that's what I get from Tom's post.That DirecTV and Tivo will work on the DVR+'s.

But then it states Tivo will be bringing out another HDDVR.Which does it really matter?.I mean the agreement is until 2015 with an option until 2018.But then in another article it said that DirecTV was keeping the DVR+s and Tivo would design another DirecTivo which is close to the same statement.

Does this mean Tivo will be sending us a little Tivoman to stick on the front of our DVR+s?.


----------



## RobertE

It's entirely possible that they (Tivo) will put together software for the HR2x series and work with DirecTv on a whole home DVR built from the ground up.

Before anyone laughs, lets keep things in perspective.

All the fanboy talk about the return of the Tivo interface, DLB and the hackability of the DTivos comming back are premature. Whatever we end up with may have all of that, we may end up with none of it. So for those crowing about the return of Tivo, be careful of putting that cart in front of that horse.


----------



## TigerDriver

Alan Gordon said:


> Now, I'm not saying that the new HD DirecTiVo will be early, I'm not even saying that it won't be released on December 31, 2009, but I do expect them deliver in 2H 2009, regardless of how foolish it may make me appear.
> ~Alan


I agree. Tivo has worked with both DirecTV and Comcast--vastly different hardware beasts. If the Tivo software team learned anything from these experiences, it is the necessity for a good HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer). Likewise, we can hope that D* hardware has a robust, rich API (Application Programming Interface).

If both of these are true, a good team should be able to get most current Tivo functionality running on the D* hardware platform *very* quickly. Back-hauling it with D* requirements will take much longer.


----------



## mp11

Alan Gordon said:


> Since TiVo is marketing the DirecTiVo HD as a "PREMIUM" product, hopefully they have enough sense to realize that OTA is being treated (these days) as a "PREMIUM" feature and include it.
> 
> ~Alan


Absolutely.


----------



## gregjones

Alan Gordon said:


> I meant to do it yesterday, but time flies...
> 
> Potentially disappointing news if true...
> 
> ... and certainly does make the 2H 2009 estimate to be overly-ambitious.
> 
> ~Alan


Please explain which hardware attributes are available on the Series 3 that are not available on the HR2x hardware. I have seen this concern repeatedly but we do not have a side-by-side comparison of the hardware involved.

Keep in mind that I am asking only about hardware, not about any software features.


----------



## Sixto

gregjones said:


> Please explain which hardware attributes are available on the Series 3 that are not available on the HR2x hardware. I have seen this concern repeatedly but we do not have a side-by-side comparison of the hardware involved.
> 
> Keep in mind that I am asking only about hardware, not about any software features.


For those hardware inclined, here's the internals of a TiVo HD:http://www.gizmolovers.com/a-review-of-the-tivo-hd-digital-media-recorder/​Lots of chip info mid-way thru the page.

The HR21 also uses the Broadcom BCM7401.


----------



## waynenm

I too have not posted in a while. This is worth it. It's a good thing. Dual Buffers are just a small part of the better, smoother, more elegant Tivo interface for me. I'm still using my old SD DirecTivo, although one tuner's been shot for years. And, I agree with others here that the Tivo is pretty freakin' noisy compared to the HR series. I'm elated that D* customers will have a new HD Tivo. Yeah!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> If I was in charge ... get the team in the room ... and here's the goal ... go get em ...
> 
> Keep Existing TiVo HD features:
> Same or better performance then TiVo HD XL
> Dual-Live-Buffers (DLB)
> Multi-Room-Viewing (MRV) for both SD and HD
> Tivo-to-Go (TTG) for both SD and HD (with free TiVo Desktop software) to laptops/iPod/Mac/PSP
> Home Media Option (HMO) with Photos (in HD), Music, and Video (with free TiVo Desktop software)
> Internet based Music, Photos / Video (Picassa, Photobucket, One True Media, Rhapsody, Live365, Podcaster, ...)
> KidZone
> Universal Swivel Search
> Wishlist Search
> TiVo Suggestions
> You Tube (be able to search and view any You Tube Video)
> Choice of "Tivo" guide or "Grid" guide
> eSATA support
> TiVo Wireless Support
> Ability of remote to power on/off both TV and Home Theater Receiver with one press
> That's all the existing stuff that works 100% today.
> 
> Then add the DirecTV necessary support:
> Satellite dual tuner support
> MPEG4 HD
> SWM
> Dish guided setup
> And then the critical DirecTV features:
> DirecTV-on-Demand (DoD)
> Interactive capabilities
> New Tivo Peanut Remote with Red, Green, Yellow, Blue buttons
> 1080p Support (for movies)
> Take the Tivo HD XL box, add the satellite tuner experience from the HR10, add SWM support, and get DoD and interactive done ... within 12 months.
> 
> Go get em ...
> 
> And in the meantime, enjoy the robust HR2x (it's been rock solid here!) ...
> 
> Good battle ahead ...


Don't forget side by side HD PIP.


----------



## jfb2002

I bailed on DTV after eight years earlier this year because of the HR20. I _detested_ that thing. I switched to cable (which sucks on toast) but my two Tivo HDs have never given me any trouble. Combine the Tivo software with DirecTV's service and picture quality, and I'm back in a flash.

When I cancelled my service, the customer retention people were apologetic and understanding when I told them that I was leaving because I couldn't get a modern Tivo.

I have a feeling that this is a prelude to a DirecTV acquisition of Tivo, and I fervently hope that this is a new box, not a software update to existing hardware -- by the time the boxes will be spec'd out, commodity prices for the hardware will be significantly lower than they are now, and I hope Tivo takes that opportunity to give us a bigger, badder machine.


----------



## Alan Gordon

gregjones said:


> Please explain which hardware attributes are available on the Series 3 that are not available on the HR2x hardware. I have seen this concern repeatedly but we do not have a side-by-side comparison of the hardware involved.
> 
> Keep in mind that I am asking only about hardware, not about any software features.


Other than ATSC tuners on HR21s and up, not a clue!! 

In fact, the HR2x series HD DVRs could be more technologically advanced than the TiVo Series 3, and the ability to "port" the TiVo software over to the HR2x HD DVRs, if done right could be a good thing, but I'm more concerned about the delay in getting it right.

As people have mentioned, the ComcasTiVo took a lot of time to become available (it's still not available everywhere), and it's still (from what I hear) "buggy". I've said before, and I'll say it again, I imagine a GREAT deal of that delay (and "buggyness") is most likely due to to trying to get the TiVo software to work on some of those older machines... which SHOULDN'T be as much of an issue with the much newer HR20s, BUT I'm still a bigger fan of building a machine from the ground up.

~Alan


----------



## kramer

wingrider01 said:


> can you explain this is something closer to real language, not really sure what you are trying to rant about


HR2X suck and are less than what they replaced HR10.


----------



## Sixto

gregjones said:


> Please explain which hardware attributes are available on the Series 3 that are not available on the HR2x hardware. I have seen this concern repeatedly but we do not have a side-by-side comparison of the hardware involved.
> 
> Keep in mind that I am asking only about hardware, not about any software features.


TiVo HD is:

Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders *(Same as HR21, not HR20)*
256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)* (Think HR2x is also 256MB per old post from P Smith)*
160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS SATA hard drive *(300GB+ in HR2x)*
2x ATI Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators (for tuners) *(satellite in HR2x)*
2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs *(?)*
1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC w/ dedicated 32MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x NANYA NT5DS8M16FS-5T) *(?)*
CableCard interface
2x [email protected] encoders

Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller *(? in HR2x)*
Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA *(? in HR2x)*
A/V Outputs: HDMI, Component, S-video, composite; optical digital, stereo *(Same)*
10/100Mbps Ethernet *(Same)*
2x USB *(Same)*


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> TiVo HD is:
> 
> Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders *(Same as HR21, not HR20)*
> 256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)* (Think HR2x is also 256MB per old post from P Smith)*
> 160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS SATA hard drive *(300GB+ in HR2x)*
> 2x ATI Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators (for tuners) *(satellite in HR2x)*
> 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs *(?)*
> 1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC w/ dedicated 32MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x NANYA NT5DS8M16FS-5T) *(?)*
> CableCard interface
> 2x [email protected] encoders
> 
> Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller *(? in HR2x)*
> Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA *(? in HR2x)*
> A/V Outputs: HDMI, Component, S-video, composite; optical digital, stereo *(Same)*
> 10/100Mbps Ethernet *(Same)*
> 2x USB *(Same)*


Admittedly, I'm still confused by half of this, but I do understand enough to appreciate the trouble posting this, Sixto! This will indeed come in handy in discussions...

However, I do have to ask... where are the ATSC tuners listed?

~Alan


----------



## Jhon69

theratpatrol said:


> Don't forget side by side HD PIP.


For that you will need 2 DirecTivos.  :lol:


----------



## harsh

Alan Gordon said:


> where are the ATSC tuners listed?


Also handled by the ATI chips.


----------



## 94SupraTT

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV and TiVo to Launch New HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service
> Wednesday September 3, 7:00 am ET
> 
> EL SEGUNDO and ALVISO, Calif., Sept. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- DIRECTV, Inc. (Nasdaq: DTV - News), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO - News), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), announced today that they have extended their current agreement, which includes the development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo® service, as well as the extension of mutual intellectual property arrangements.
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.
> 
> DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.
> 
> "We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV. Together we brought the TiVo experience to millions of DIRECTV customers and now we look forward to launching a next generation product that uses TiVo's latest features to truly showcase DIRECTV's broad selection of high-definition programming -- all stitched together with the elegance of TiVo's renowned user experience," said Tom Rogers, TiVo's CEO and president. "This agreement demonstrates our continued embrace of mass distribution opportunities in cooperation with major multichannel operators who recognize the value of giving their customers a choice of compelling user experiences."
> 
> Like prior products developed by TiVo and DIRECTV, the new HD offering will be marketed and sold by DIRECTV nationally to its entire customer base as part of its growing portfolio of brand name video offerings. Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product.
> 
> "As the industry's content and technology leader, DIRECTV has a long-standing reputation for developing innovative, advanced products and services, including our highly successful series of DVRs and HD DVRs," said Chase Carey, president and CEO, DIRECTV, Inc. "We will continue to work with TiVo and make this new product available to all new and existing DIRECTV customers who may want to add TiVo on top of our industry leading experience."
> 
> DIRECTV and TiVo began their relationship in 2000 with the launch of the first DIRECTV DVR with TiVo service. In April 2006, the companies announced an extension of their commercial and advertising relationship and those commercial and advertising capabilities are further extended, and now include the new HD platform. DIRECTV and TiVo also recently deployed a software update to existing DIRECTV with TiVo boxes, which enables new features like DIRECTV's Remote Booking.
> 
> Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.
> 
> About DIRECTV, Inc.
> 
> DIRECTV, Inc. (NASDAQ: DTV - News), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, presents the finest television experience available to more than 17.1 million customers in the United States and is leading the HD revolution with more than 130 HD channels -- more quality HD channels than any other television provider. Each day, DIRECTV subscribers enjoy access to over 265 channels of 100% digital picture and sound, exclusive programming, industry-leading customer satisfaction (which has surpassed all national cable companies for eight years running) and superior technologies that include advanced DVR and HD-DVR services and the most state-of-the-art interactive sports packages available anywhere. For the most up-to-date information on DIRECTV, please visit directv.com.
> 
> About TiVo Inc
> 
> Founded in 1997, TiVo (NASDAQ: TIVO - News) pioneered a brand new category of products with the development of the first commercially available digital video recorder (DVR). Sold through leading consumer electronic retailers, TiVo has developed a brand which resonates boldly with consumers as providing a superior television experience. Through agreements with leading satellite and cable providers, TiVo also integrates its DVR service features into the set-top boxes of mass distributors. TiVo's DVR functionality and ease of use, with such features as Season Pass® recordings, WishList® searches, and TiVo KidZone, have elevated its popularity among consumers and have created a whole new way for viewers to watch television. With a continued investment in its patented technologies, TiVo is revolutionizing the way consumers watch and access home entertainment. Rapidly becoming the focal point of the digital living room, TiVo's DVR is at the center of experiencing new forms of content on the TV, such as broadband delivered video, music and photos. With innovative features such as TiVoToGo(TM) and online scheduling, TiVo is expanding the notion of consumers experiencing "TiVo, TV your way.®" The TiVo® service is also at the forefront of providing innovative marketing solutions for the television industry, including the Stop||Watch(TM) commercial and program rankings service, a unique platform for advertisers and media companies. The Company is based in Alviso, California.
> 
> TiVo, the TiVo logo, Season Pass, WishList, Swivel, Stop||Watch, TiVoToGo, and 'TiVo, TV your way.' are trademarks or registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.
> 
> This release contains certain forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements relate to, among other things, the timing and nature of future development and distribution of DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service, the future availability of interactive advertising capabilities and future negotiations between TiVo and DIRECTV on other product initiatives. Forward-looking statements generally can be identified by the use of forward-looking terminology such as, "believe," "expect," "may," "will," "intend," "estimate," "continue," or similar expressions or the negative of those terms or expressions. Such statements involve risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to vary materially from those expressed in or indicated by the forward-looking statements. Factors that may cause actual results to differ materially include delays in development, competitive service offerings and lack of market acceptance, as well as the other potential factors described under "Risk Factors" in DIRECTV's public reports and TiVo's public reports, including each company's most recent Annual Report on Form 10-K and subsequent current and quarterly reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Each of DIRECTV and TiVo cautions you not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements, which reflect an analysis only and speak only as of the date hereof. Each of DIRECTV and TiVo disclaim any obligation to update these forward-looking statements.


I think I just shed a tear. My Bears won and now this. :lol:


----------



## wingrider01

kramer said:


> HR2X suck and are less than what they replaced HR10.


Not what I got out of it - as far as which one sucked - matter of opinion.


----------



## tthunder38

Jhon69 said:


> For that you will need 2 DirecTivos.  :lol:


Not really. You already have two tuners......just make them both available at the same time.


----------



## Hdhead

Is this unit in Beta testing yet?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

No... and I would not expect to see anything real on this device for at least 12 months.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Jhon69 said:


> For that you will need 2 DirecTivos.  :lol:





tthunder38 said:


> Not really. You already have two tuners......just make them both available at the same time.


Exactly. E* has side by side PIP. I hope they seriously consider having it on the new Tivo.


----------



## Lee L

You know, after re-reading the PR, there is a line that says "This new box..." Leads me to beleive it iwll be anew piece of equipment.


----------



## Doug Brott

wingrider01 said:


> Not what I got out of it - as far as which one sucked - matter of opinion.


Me either and I had trouble getting all the HD I wanted out of the HR10 .. which has been sitting in my closet for over a year now ..


----------



## Doug Brott

tthunder38 said:


> Not really. You already have two tuners......just make them both available at the same time.


The DirecTiVo doesn't even make all outputs available at the same time ..


----------



## ATARI

If the TiVo software does use the HR2x hardware platform, I sure hope there is a CE type program that we can sign up for.


----------



## belunos

I'm hoping this will be based on the new standalone tivo:

https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxdetails.do?boxName=tivohdxl&boxsku=R65800

I guess the only thing that would be nice is the very large hd.. everything else new in it is really cable related (switched video, ondemand, etc)


----------



## OneHump

I was one of the first with an HR21, after "upgrading" from an HR10. I think the fact that I had little choice in the matter resigned me to jumping onto the "HR21 is great" bandwagon.

Last night, after struggling with the clunky HR21 interface, my wife said "I miss my Tivo". I told her that I would have a look at future plans. I fired up Google this morning and found this announcement.

Now that Tivo is back, I have to say that the HR21 has been little more than tolerable. It remains clunky, unpolished and with an interface that can't approach that of the HDVR2 or HR10. Omissions aside, there are some interesting features, but nothing notable Tivo hasn't already done. 

All I can say is WOOHOOO! ... oh, and I can't wait to take my HR21 out into the street and smash it with a sledgehammer, burn it and throw it off a bridge.


----------



## Jhon69

OneHump said:


> I was one of the first with an HR21, after "upgrading" from an HR10. I think the fact that I had little choice in the matter resigned me to jumping onto the "HR21 is great" bandwagon.
> 
> Last night, after struggling with the clunky HR21 interface, my wife said "I miss my Tivo". I told her that I would have a look at future plans. I fired up Google this morning and found this announcement.
> 
> Now that Tivo is back, I have to say that the HR21 has been little more than tolerable. It remains clunky, unpolished and with an interface that can't approach that of the HDVR2 or HR10. Omissions aside, there are some interesting features, but nothing notable Tivo hasn't already done.
> 
> All I can say is WOOHOOO! ... oh, and I can't wait to take my HR21 out into the street and smash it with a sledgehammer, burn it and throw it off a bridge.


Tell us how you really feel!.:eek2:


----------



## jjohns

I wonder if your two year lease is up, if you'll be able to trade in your hr2x for the Tivo?


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> The DirecTiVo doesn't even make all outputs available at the same time ..


Does it really matter what the old DirecTiVos could or couldn't do?


----------



## harsh

jjohns said:


> I wonder if your two year lease is up, if you'll be able to trade in your hr2x for the Tivo?


Unlikely unless there is a technology shift at DIRECTV that forces a change. They may allow you to buy up, but don't expect a straight across trade.


----------



## harsh

belunos said:


> I'm hoping this will be based on the new standalone tivo:
> 
> https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxdetails.do?boxName=tivohdxl&boxsku=R65800


The press release clearly states that the new box will be based on the DIRECTV HD DVR platform. That means _not_ based on any TiVo hardware (current or past) for those who didn't make it past the first paragraph of the press release.


----------



## Doug Brott

OneHump said:


> ... Now that Tivo is back ...


Uh, "back" means that in 12 - 18 months from the announcement a few days ago, so TiVo's not back yet. It's not even 100% clear what the hardware will look like, let alone the software ..


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I must agree with my friend Doug here. How many pieces of vaporware have been announced with flashy press releases and even prototypes, only to have them disappear? I can even think of two or three other high-profile DIRECTV products that never got to customers' hands.


----------



## HarleyD

So this is I'm guessing the "something better" than DLB we've been speculating about?

I've grown accustomed to the HR2x interface and that stuff. I don't have a problem there but I have continued to miss the DLB feature. Assuming that TiVO doesn't gut that from the coming HD DirecTiVO I will be very glad to have that available again and the HR20 may be headed for the Master Bedroom a year from now.


----------



## allenn

How sweet it is! Now a dvr that will work. I was thinking of moving to AT&T U-verse, but the tivo hd dvr will keep me at D*. I have two am21's and hr21-700's. The am21's work great. I wish I could say that about the hr21's.


----------



## HarleyD

harsh said:


> The press release clearly states that the new box will be based on the DIRECTV HD DVR platform. That means _not_ based on any TiVo hardware (current or past) for those who didn't make it past the first paragraph of the press release.


So what are tha chances that we could force a download of the TiVo software onto our existing HR2x platform?

That would be even sweeter.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Slightly higher than zero.


----------



## BubblePuppy

HarleyD said:


> So what are tha chances that we could force a download of the TiVo software onto our existing HR2x platform?
> 
> That would be even sweeter.





> DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This *new TiVo box *will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services


It will be Tive box not a software/firmware upgraded HR2xx.


----------



## Sixto

Seems like TiVo needs DirecTV, really needs DirecTV.

The DirecTV "new" relationship is a major highlight on their web-site: http://www.tivo.com/

One click on news and it's a big graphic.

And the CEO discussed DirecTV during the investor conference last week.

And DirecTV CSR's seem to now be mentioning it.

Sure seems like it's happening someday ... may be a while of course ...

And with DirecTV, they don't have to deal with OCAP and Cablecards ...

And the HR21 hardware and TiVo HD hardware use the same Broadcom processor (BCM7401) ...

And the two million existing DirecTivo's already have mastered the satellite access (yep, and now need SWM and MPEG4) ...

Man, sure seems like this is happening and has a very good chance of success ... especially, especially if it's new hardware.

We'll just wait and see ...

Being a HR2x diehard, fanboy, whatever ... I'm going to give this box a chance.

Only goodness can come of it ... whether it's a great new DirecTV Tivo HD box or just a great better HR2x to compete ... only goodness!


----------



## gregjones

BubblePuppy said:


> it will be Tive box not a software/firmware upgraded HR2xx.


And that is exactly the opposite conclusion from a number of well-read members here. There is no particular reason to use a different box. Sixto posted the specs. How different is the HR2x hardware from what Tivo would spec for the same purpose?

If there are no missing crucial pieces, it would be negligent to startup manufacture of separate hardware lines. The OTA tuner is really fairly straightforward in its function within a DVR. I see very little issue integrating the AM21 into the mix. The difficult code has very little to do with tuners. The code that makes the difference has nothing to do with hardware (scheduling, conflict resolution, prioritization, GUI).

EDIT: The dealbreakers might be the Broadcom chip (if they were different), the amount of memory (if the HR2x had less) or a slow hard drive controller. If those problems don't exist, you have a very similar setup. From Sixto's data, those are all equivalent on both boxes.


----------



## Doug Brott

HarleyD said:


> So this is I'm guessing the "something better" than DLB we've been speculating about?


Your guess would be wrong ..


----------



## HoTat2

Stuart Sweet said:


> I must agree with my friend Doug here. How many pieces of vaporware have been announced with flashy press releases and even prototypes, only to have them disappear? I can even think of two or three other high-profile DIRECTV products that never got to customers' hands.


Well that's certainly true, but given TIVO's so-so financial situation talked about earlier in this thread, can TIVO really afford to allow this big opportunity to access the market of DirecTV's huge subscriber base to fall by the wayside? That is of course, for everything within TIVO's power to deliver the product.


----------



## jaxfan

jaxfan said:


> It aint coming (on the current HRxx boxes anyway). History tells us so. They may add it to the next gen of receivers, but not the current ones.
> 
> ......
> 
> The only way to get the 'for future use' or 'something better is coming' is to wait until the next generation of receivers.


Well, I just got back in town after being away for a week and see that D* and Tivo will be releasing new receivers. I will bet the house that they will have DLB. Not to say I told you so, but I stand by my comments from earlier. I will have a HR21 for sale once the new Tivo's come out.


----------



## Lee L

Sixto said:


> Seems like TiVo needs DirecTV, really needs DirecTV.
> 
> The DirecTV "new" relationship is a major highlight on their web-site: http://www.tivo.com/
> 
> One click on news and it's a big graphic.


Right now, the new TiVo relationship is on the front page of DirecTV.com so I doubt you can infer who needs who more or less from it.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> The press release clearly states that the new box will be based on the DIRECTV HD DVR platform. That means _not_ based on any TiVo hardware (current or past) for those who didn't make it past the first paragraph of the press release.


At this point, I'm not sure I'd extrapolate too much from the press release beyond the fact that there is a renewed contract, and they intend to introduce _something_ new using TiVo technology. The "DirecTV HD DVR platform" could simply be referring to a list of specs that DirecTV requires, like dvb-s2, a specific aesthetic design, etc. Like most of the other boxes, the HR10-250 was built by a third party, and both DirecTV and TiVo wee involved in the design. You could say it was part of the "DirecTV DVR platform", yet most would consider it a TiVo.

There's a new choice coming, and choice is generally good. Based on TiVo's past, (and DirecTV's), I'm betting this is going to be a great choice. But I wouldn't spend a lot of energy trying to extract specific details from that press release. I'm actually more interested in who wrote the code than whether it's considered TiVo or DirecTV hardware. IMHO, one is much better than the other at writing DVR code.


----------



## HoTat2

gregjones said:


> And that is exactly the opposite conclusion from a number of well-read members here. There is no particular reason to use a different box. Sixto posted the specs. How different is the HR2x hardware from what Tivo would spec for the same purpose?
> 
> If there are no missing crucial pieces, it would be negligent to startup manufacture of separate hardware lines. The OTA tuner is really fairly straightforward in its function within a DVR. I see very little issue integrating the AM21 into the mix. The difficult code has very little to do with tuners. The code that makes the difference has nothing to do with hardware (scheduling, conflict resolution, prioritization, GUI).
> 
> EDIT: The dealbreakers might be the Broadcom chip (if they were different), the amount of memory (if the HR2x had less) or a slow hard drive controller. If those problems don't exist, you have a very similar setup. From Sixto's data, those are all equivalent on both boxes.


Or maybe DirecTV could simply change the cabinet design, with the familiar TIVO logo stamped in a lower conner somewhere as usual, to give people the illusion they really have something new hardware-wise. Since software is not tangible you'd be surprised what such trivial physical changes can do for peoples psyche to get them to think they really have something new or original.


----------



## Sixto

Lee L said:


> Right now, the new TiVo relationship is on the front page of DirecTV.com so I doubt you can infer who needs who more or less from it.


Yep, wasn't referring to "more". Just commenting on the commitment of TiVo referenced.

Interesting times ahead ...


----------



## SlimyPizza

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyD 
So this is I'm guessing the "something better" than DLB we've been speculating about?



Doug Brott said:


> Your guess would be wrong ..


Why do you say that?


----------



## rahlquist

Stuart Sweet said:


> Slightly higher than zero.


OH please tell me your speaking binary to us Shadow! :lol:


----------



## loudo

Doug Brott said:


> The DirecTiVo doesn't even make all outputs available at the same time ..


That is right Doug, I forgot about that. It is an important feature to me, as I feed the component video and analog audio from my HR20's to other TV sets in the house, and the HDMI output to my HDTV, next to the receiver.


----------



## Sixto

loudo said:


> That is right Doug, I forgot about that. It is an important feature to me, as I feed the component video and analog audio from my HR20's to other TV sets in the house, and the HDMI output to my HDTV, next to the receiver.


Series3/Tivo HD do dual output today ...


----------



## ATARI

Surely it is possible that D* is already working on the specs for the next generation hardware (HR3x), and now instead of putting their software on it, they will use TiVo.


----------



## sunking

gregjones said:


> And that is exactly the opposite conclusion from a number of well-read members here. There is no particular reason to use a different box. Sixto posted the specs. How different is the HR2x hardware from what Tivo would spec for the same purpose?
> 
> If there are no missing crucial pieces, it would be negligent to startup manufacture of separate hardware lines. The OTA tuner is really fairly straightforward in its function within a DVR. I see very little issue integrating the AM21 into the mix. The difficult code has very little to do with tuners. The code that makes the difference has nothing to do with hardware (scheduling, conflict resolution, prioritization, GUI).
> 
> EDIT: The dealbreakers might be the Broadcom chip (if they were different), the amount of memory (if the HR2x had less) or a slow hard drive controller. If those problems don't exist, you have a very similar setup. From Sixto's data, those are all equivalent on both boxes.


Well, depending on how much you believe or dont believe in the power of branding the deal breaker could be as simple as the fact that there is no 'Tivo' sticker on the front of the hr20. If you don't think branding is important then stop and listen to how many people universally call their DVR a TIVO whether it is or isn't. It's like Coke and soda. I always end up saying 'pepsi is fine' when I order a soda as Coke in a resturant. I don't know whether this is the case or not, maybe they will be fine with it. Just throwing out one more thing to consider. This may have more to do with lawyers and marketing than hardware at all.


----------



## Maruuk

After my OTA recordings yesterday resulted in an immediate DO YOU WANT TO DELETE OR NOT? window and would only return to that window after I selected NO rendering my Niners game USELESS...

ANYTHING would be an improvement over the HR21. I'll mail D* the crushed pieces of my HR21 after I run it through my Steve Buscemi autographed Bear Cat chipper. Dear D*: your receiver is a pile. So I converted into the appropriate format for you. No thanks necessary.

I will be first in line for the Tivo unit WHATEVER they put in it. NOTHING could be as big a POS as the current toy-grade insult to the consumer.


----------



## Sixto

ATARI said:


> Surely it is possible that D* is already working on the specs for the next generation hardware (HR3x), and now instead of putting their software on it, they will use TiVo.


Or both.


----------



## mikewolf13

Doug Brott said:


> Your guess would be wrong ..


Clearly, this implies you know exactly what "something better" is.

a) Is it still coming?
b) when? (vagueness is good...i.e. not for at least x months)
c) Will DLB lovers likely find it "better"

Can't blame me for asking...


----------



## mikewolf13

Stuart Sweet said:


> Slightly higher than zero.


and slightly less than one?


----------



## bonscott87

sunking said:


> I always end up saying 'pepsi is fine' when I order a soda as Coke in a resturant.


Last time I was in Atlanta I was asked what kind of Coke I wanted. I was  and she said, what kind, you know 7-up, Sprite, Pepsi, Coca Cola, :lol:

Everyone I know with a DVR calls their DVR a Tivo. Only one actually has a Tivo, all have cable DVRs or Dish DVR or DirecTV DVRs. Even after pointing out that they really don't have a Tivo they still call it a Tivo because DVR=Tivo. That isn't going to change anytime soon. I'd expect this premium offering from DirecTV will be a niche product only assuming they still give people their DVR by default. But it will make a few thousands happy.


----------



## tonyd79

Lee L said:


> Right now, the new TiVo relationship is on the front page of DirecTV.com so I doubt you can infer who needs who more or less from it.


You mean on the list of news releases? Yup, displaced the very important news about hurricane recovery of signal.

See, that is just the latest press releases listed in order.

Meanwhile, on the rotating billboard with BIG graphics, we have a very important ad to go paperless billing and to buy an NFL remote.

Wow! They must really need to push NFL remotes!


----------



## loudo

tonyd79 said:


> Meanwhile, on the rotating billboard with BIG graphics, we have a very important ad to go paperless billing and to buy an NFL remote.
> 
> Wow! They must really need to push NFL remotes!


Wonder how the NFL DirecTV remotes will work with the new TIVO receiver. Remember the HR10-250 had it's own TIVO remote, nothing like a DirecTV remote.


----------



## tonyd79

loudo said:


> Wonder how the NFL DirecTV remotes will work with the new TIVO receiver. Remember the HR10-250 had it's own TIVO remote, nothing like a DirecTV remote.


Probably depends on if they put it on the DirecTV box or not.

But, personally, I don't really care.


----------



## DarinC

bonscott87 said:


> Last time I was in Atlanta I was asked what kind of Coke I wanted. I was  and she said, what kind, you know 7-up, Sprite, Pepsi, Coca Cola, :lol:
> 
> Everyone I know with a DVR calls their DVR a Tivo.


But everyone I know in Atlanta calls their DVR a DVR. Unless it's a TiVo.


----------



## mp11

Maruuk said:


> NOTHING could be as big a POS as the current toy-grade insult to the consumer.
> 
> 
> 
> Couldnt agree more on that as I sit here trying to get my AM21(because D* chose not to include OTA tuner in my HR21), to FF pressing the FF button numerous times before it kicks in.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sirshagg

mp11 said:


> Maruuk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Couldnt agree more on that as I sit here trying to get my AM21(because D* chose not to include OTA tuner in my HR21), to FF pressing the FF button numerous times before it kicks in.
> 
> 
> 
> That's an insult to many fine lead based toys. :lol:
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

bonscott87 said:


> Everyone I know with a DVR calls their DVR a Tivo. Only one actually has a Tivo, all have cable DVRs or Dish DVR or DirecTV DVRs. Even after pointing out that they really don't have a Tivo they still call it a Tivo because DVR=Tivo.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear it all the time myself. Thus the power of an exceptional brand name.
Click to expand...


----------



## xIsamuTM

So... tivo vs DVR is kinda like a Coke vs Pepsi vs RC and so own... no real difference, just comes down to what you prefer?


----------



## loudo

xIsamuTM said:


> So... tivo vs DVR is kinda like a Coke vs Pepsi vs RC and so own... no real difference, just comes down to what you prefer?


More so, what features each one has.


----------



## HoTat2

xIsamuTM said:


> So... tivo vs DVR is kinda like a Coke vs Pepsi vs RC and so own... no real difference, just comes down to what you prefer?


Oh... not at all, while there is always some subjectivism in ones personal choice, there are definitely qualitative differences between DVRs. Its just that because of TIVO's pioneering efforts and dominance in the field of DVR technology. This causes people to popularly associate any DVR today with a TIVO it seems.


----------



## SlimyPizza

bonscott87 said:


> Last time I was in Atlanta I was asked what kind of Coke I wanted. I was  and she said, what kind, you know 7-up, Sprite, Pepsi, Coca Cola, :lol:


Sorry, but I seriously doubt that. You can make your point about DVRs but don't make stuff up. Thanks.


----------



## Jeremy W

SlimyPizza said:


> Sorry, but I seriously doubt that. You can make your point about DVRs but don't make stuff up. Thanks.


You're from Georgia, and you don't know about that? I thought it was a pretty well-known fact.


----------



## SlimyPizza

Jeremy W said:


> You're from Georgia, and you don't know about that? I thought it was a pretty well-known fact.


That's not a fact. Knock it off.


----------



## Jeremy W

SlimyPizza said:


> That's not a fact. Knock it off.


It's not a fact that some people in Atlanta refer to any type of soda as Coke? Why don't you knock it off? You're not only arguing over something stupid, but you're wrong too.


----------



## tkrandall

Lifelong Georgia resident here, and many of us "locals" typically use the word "coke" in a generic sense, like soda, pop, or soft drink are used elsewhere. 

"You wanna Coke?"
"Sure"
"OK, I've got Coke, Sprite, Dr. Pepper...."

But we digress. Now back on topic of the Tivo news.......


----------



## Jeremy W

tkrandall said:


> Lifelong Georgia resident here, and many of us "locals" typically use the word "coke" in a generic sense, like soda, pop, or soft drink are used elsewhere.


LIAR!


----------



## rahlquist

tkrandall said:


> Lifelong Georgia resident here, and many of us "locals" typically use the word "coke" in a generic sense, like soda, pop, or soft drink are used elsewhere.
> 
> "You wanna Coke?"
> "Sure"
> "OK, I've got Coke, Sprite, Dr. Pepper...."
> 
> But we digress. Now back on topic of the Tivo news.......


We did the same in California :lol:


----------



## mp11

Must be a Georgia thing...in most of the world, you ask for a Coke... and thats what you get.


----------



## DarinC

Well, to be honest, I can't say that I ever run into the "what flavor of Coke" thing either. I know it at least _used_ to be common, and maybe it still is in the burbs. But I can't say that I ever remember being asked to clarify when I ask for a Coke. There may be some that still say they HAD a coke, referring to a soft drink in general rather than a specific type. But obviously, if someone is ordering a coke, and doesn't specify a flavor, they must mean the cola flavor. Otherwise they should have specified a flavor... why answer the question with an anser that requires a further question? That'd be like saying "I'll have a sandwich". Do you expect the server to pick what kind for you?


----------



## RobertE

!pepsi! <---Not a Coke. :lol:


----------



## mhayes70

How did this get from a Tivo discussion to a soda discussion???? :lol:


----------



## loudo

mhayes70 said:


> How did this get from a Tivo discussion to a soda discussion???? :lol:


I once spilled a Coke, on my TIVO HR10-250. !rolling


----------



## Maruuk

Tell me about the multiple presses, especially on OTA AM21 recordings! Push...nothing...push...nothing nothing. Push........INSANE JUMBLE FREAKOUT.

This is a unit which is constantly on overload, thus it stacks up inputs, makes them stand in line while the processor wrings its hands dealing with other messes. Then it runs them all at the same time in a panic. Reedickless.

Never once had that problem with a Tivo box in 10 years. In fact, never had one problem with a Tivo box. Button presses are responded to INSTANTLY. No delay, no stack up, no panic freakouts. You command, it obeys NOW, not later.

Welcome, conquering Tivoans! Save us from these barbarian hordes!


----------



## Jeremy W

Maruuk said:


> Never once had that problem with a Tivo box in 10 years. In fact, never had one problem with a Tivo box. Button presses are responded to INSTANTLY. No delay, no stack up, no panic freakouts. You command, it obeys NOW, not later.


Lucky you. I've had that problem many times on my SD Tivo.


----------



## houskamp

mhayes70 said:


> How did this get from a Tivo discussion to a soda discussion???? :lol:


You mean "pop"? :lol:


----------



## xIsamuTM

wow... you normally only see thread derailment like this only in web comic message boards.


----------



## dennisj00

I'm from NC and if you say 'Coke' you will get 'Pepsi' because that's what the restaurant has.

If you say DVR you get a puzzled look because they know they have 'TIVO' even though they have whatever DVR their cable company (there's about 3 or 4 close within our circle of friends) provide -- and nobody really has a Tivo!

And if you say DLB -- - you really get a puzzled look!


----------



## kramer

xIsamuTM said:


> wow... you normally only see thread derailment like this only in web comic message boards.


+1
D* Fan Boys are trying there hardest!


----------



## Jeremy W

kramer said:


> D* Fan Boys are trying there hardest!


To do what?


----------



## xIsamuTM

Y'know, I've gotten to just saying "cola" when going out. I don't know if its a Colorado (read as "uptight neuvo-riche sprouteating hippie") thing or what, but you say Coke when they serve pepsi, you'd get your testies ripped off by the waitress. so it's just "Cherry-cola" or "Diet Cola" to avoid getting a snippy burger-drone.


----------



## NickD

I catch myself saying Tivo all of the time, because that is what I started out with. I do correct myself and then say DVR'ing, but it ust does not sound right.

As far as the soda thing goes, I prefer Pepsi but when I go out I say I'll have a Pepsi, Coke or whatever you have. I usually get some kind of cola in a glass.


----------



## paulman182

Actually, it points out the _lack of_ importance in branding when everything is a Coke, or a Kleenex, or a TiVo.

If we call it "brand" but either don't know or don't care whether we get "brand," then the branding is irrelevant.


----------



## raott

Stuart Sweet said:


> I must agree with my friend Doug here. How many pieces of vaporware have been announced with flashy press releases and even prototypes, only to have them disappear? I can even think of two or three other high-profile DIRECTV products that never got to customers' hands.


It triggered an SEC filling. It's not your standard CES D* vaporware.

I know the arrival of a Tivo HD box is much to the chagrin of many here, but its coming.


----------



## wingrider01

raott said:


> It triggered an SEC filling. It's not your standard CES D* vaporware.
> 
> I know the arrival of a Tivo HD box is much to the chagrin of many here, but its coming.


Until a physical unit hits the streets - it is vaporware, have seen many devices that triggered a SEC filing never make it from the design board to a physical unit over the years. The device can hit "technical snags" that could delay it for years.


----------



## DarinC

Maruuk said:


> This is a unit which is constantly on overload, thus it stacks up inputs, makes them stand in line while the processor wrings its hands dealing with other messes. Then it runs them all at the same time in a panic. Reedickless.
> 
> Never once had that problem with a Tivo box in 10 years.


In all fairness, I've had that happen with my TiVos. As much as I liked them, speed was NOT their forte'. But then again, they ceased to be able to phone home about 4 years ago when I switched to VoIP... my understanding is that later updates improved speed substantially.

But despite their slowness, they did _eventually_ do what they were supposed to do. No missed recordings, no lockups, and no spontaneous reboots, unlike my brief experience with my HR21s. Crossing my fingers that the new TiVo retains the previous unit's reliability, with updated speed and features.


----------



## raott

wingrider01 said:


> The device can hit "technical snags" that could delay it for years.


Its a DVR, not an atom splitter.

I'm sensing people here starting to get antsy about a new Tivo HD. I believe that is for a couple of reasons.

First, IMO, it signals an end to the DVR+ line, I know many will disagree with that, but I really do not see D* supporting two entirely different product lines. It makes zero sense to do that. I'll bet the same people that will argue D* is going to support two product lines in the long run, are the same ones who insisted for years that Tivo was never coming back.

Second, if the first happens, it takes alot of people here out of the D* loop and makes this site much less relevant. No more CEs and no more "insider knowlege". There seems to be alot of protectionism and burying heads in the sand going on as well as what appears to be rooting against Tivo coming back.


----------



## tthunder38

Doug Brott said:


> The DirecTiVo doesn't even make all outputs available at the same time ..


I don't really know about that but i do know that the old (ancient by todays standards) RCA Ultimate TV allowed you to watch both tuners at the same time. The remote that came with the receiver even has a PIP button to turn it on. Has a swap button to flip the screens too! How do I know this? Because I use it every night when I go home. I have also had a couple of Tivo units and D*/Tivo would do well to look at the feature this "old" box has and incorporate some of them along with the ease of use in to the new HD box.


----------



## mp11

NickD said:


> I catch myself saying Tivo all of the time, because that is what I started out with. I do correct myself and then say DVR'ing, but it ust does not sound right.
> 
> 
> 
> Well thank goodness we'll get to say "Tivo" again, and be correct.
Click to expand...


----------



## ATARI

When I go to a restaurant to order a syrupy caffinated drink, I don't say "Give me a Coke", I say "Give me a DEW!!!". 

And if they don't have Dew, then I get water, because Mello Yellow != Dew.


----------



## rahlquist

raott said:


> First, IMO, it signals an end to the DVR+ line, I know many will disagree with that, but I really do not see D* supporting two entirely different product lines. It makes zero sense to do that. I'll bet the same people that will argue D* is going to support two product lines in the long run, are the same ones who insisted for years that Tivo was never coming back.


It is possible they will sunset the line, but that wont happen for years, you're talking about millions of piece of functioning hardware that D* likely wasn't planning on depreciating over a 3-5 year cycle more like a 7-8. Remember one of the reasons there was a second product line created was to release the Tivo stranglehold on D* and show them that D* can go on without them fairly ok. (not counting the obvious corporate nepotism) So yes its possible the HRx series will begin to atrophy with release of the next tivo unit, but that wont be an end for D* dont forget their recent slides that show by 2010 they want a home media server.



> Second, if the first happens, it takes alot of people here out of the D* loop and makes this site much less relevant. No more CEs and no more "insider knowlege". There seems to be alot of protectionism and burying heads in the sand going on as well as what appears to be rooting against Tivo coming back.


:shrug: If they retire the HR series they will likely continue to support and update it for at least 2-4 years afterward to help them offset the cost of replacing all that hardware.

I think what you're gonna see here is the same as anything, you have Tivo fans and you have a few Tivo haters and quite a few middle of the road waiting for the next 18 months to see what happens. Until the box or software materializes though this board has a functional place in the CE program. Even in the event that say

Tivo releases in 8 months
D* decides to kill the HR line
D* terminates CE program
Tivo runs its own closed beta

The board will still be relevant, may not as high trafficked on friday and sat night but its still got a lot of good members who have good knowledge.


----------



## James Long

An early look at the design for the new DirecTV TiVo project shows that it will not have DLB. I understand it was removed as an unneeded feature that not everyone used. Not something needed on a next generation DVR.


Just kidding ... I have no clue if the next DirecTV Tivo will have DLB or not. This early in the design anything anyone says is all a guess.


----------



## tthunder38

James Long said:


> An early look at the design for the new DirecTV TiVo project shows that it will not have DLB. I understand it was removed as an unneeded feature that not everyone used. Not something needed on a next generation DVR.
> 
> Just kidding ... I have no clue if the next DirecTV Tivo will have DLB or not. This early in the design anything anyone says is all a guess.


I predict the new Tivo box will be fully self supporting for all viewers and their viewing habits, regardless of what they may be....I even heard through the grapevine that the thing is gonna make 3D projections directly into any open space that may be in your viewing room. This projection is gonna be so realistic you're gonna have to be careful not to get hit from any flying debris when the NASCAR guys wreck right there in your own living room!!!! YOU WON'T EVEN NEED A HDTV!!!! It'll be even better than going to a theater. The sound system will also be included and will literaly shake the paint off the sheetrock if its older than three years.

Yes sir.....gonna be better that DLB alrighty!


----------



## EricRobins

Anyone else believe this thread has outlived its usefulness???

When we get more info, e.g., features or pricing, we can discuss that, but these posts have really denigrated into Coke vs. Pepsi, c'mon.


----------



## DarinC

EricRobins said:


> Anyone else believe this thread has outlived its usefulness???


It's very easy to tell when threads outlive their usefullness. People stop posting to them.


----------



## Doug Brott

Maruuk said:


> Never once had that problem with a Tivo box in 10 years. In fact, never had one problem with a Tivo box. Button presses are responded to INSTANTLY. No delay, no stack up, no panic freakouts. You command, it obeys NOW, not later.


You must not have had an SAT-T60 .. I had this problem constantly ..


----------



## Doug Brott

tthunder38 said:


> I don't really know about that but i do know that the old (ancient by todays standards) RCA Ultimate TV allowed you to watch both tuners at the same time. The remote that came with the receiver even has a PIP button to turn it on. Has a swap button to flip the screens too! How do I know this? Because I use it every night when I go home. I have also had a couple of Tivo units and D*/Tivo would do well to look at the feature this "old" box has and incorporate some of them along with the ease of use in to the new HD box.


Someone did note that it was now available with TiVo's newest STB .. and your RCA Ultimate TV STB may very well have done this, but I assure you the older (even HR10-250) STB's did not do this ..


----------



## Doug Brott

raott said:


> Its a DVR, not an atom splitter.
> 
> I'm sensing people here starting to get antsy about a new Tivo HD. I believe that is for a couple of reasons.
> 
> First, IMO, it signals an end to the DVR+ line, I know many will disagree with that, but I really do not see D* supporting two entirely different product lines. It makes zero sense to do that. I'll bet the same people that will argue D* is going to support two product lines in the long run, are the same ones who insisted for years that Tivo was never coming back.


A couple of things .. yes, I was surprised at the announcement and this is because I had heard at all levels of the DIRECTV organization that it would not happen. Clearly something changed since the announcement was indeed made. Understandably, I was not told about this before the announcement, either.

Secondly, DIRECTV has always supported multiple product lines .. So there is no reason to think this announcement would change that.



raott said:


> Second, if the first happens, it takes alot of people here out of the D* loop and makes this site much less relevant. No more CEs and no more "insider knowlege". There seems to be alot of protectionism and burying heads in the sand going on as well as what appears to be rooting against Tivo coming back.


The "insider knowledge" that you speak of is a way for everyone to get information. Protectionism is when you hear nothing at all, and I do believe that folks can find and abundance of information here at DBSTalk .. it's unfortunate that you do not feel the same way.

As for TiVo? Bring it on .. Today it is vaporware .. Will it be 12 months from today? :shrug: My belief is that it will be, yes .. I think the MPEG4 TiVo will be available on the last day of Q1 2010 .. just so that it can be said that it only slipped one quarter (right now they are saying EOY 2009).


----------



## Doug Brott

EricRobins said:


> Anyone else believe this thread has outlived its usefulness???
> 
> When we get more info, e.g., features or pricing, we can discuss that, but these posts have really denigrated into Coke vs. Pepsi, c'mon.












This thread stays .. Our aim is to keep one monster thread on this topic much the same as the DLB thread and the D10, D11 and D12 threads in the General 
Forum.. There may be the occasional situation where additional threads are warranted, but for the most part news / discussion will be housed here.


----------



## tuff bob

It shouldn't be that hard to port to the HR2x platform, although DirecTV is apparently flouting the GPL, its pretty clear the box is running linux much like the Tivo software, so the hard work of creating the hardware drivers is already done.


----------



## wingrider01

raott said:


> Its a DVR, not an atom splitter.
> 
> I'm sensing people here starting to get antsy about a new Tivo HD. I believe that is for a couple of reasons.
> 
> First, IMO, it signals an end to the DVR+ line, I know many will disagree with that, but I really do not see D* supporting two entirely different product lines. It makes zero sense to do that. I'll bet the same people that will argue D* is going to support two product lines in the long run, are the same ones who insisted for years that Tivo was never coming back.
> 
> Second, if the first happens, it takes alot of people here out of the D* loop and makes this site much less relevant. No more CEs and no more "insider knowlege". There seems to be alot of protectionism and burying heads in the sand going on as well as what appears to be rooting against Tivo coming back.


really? If I recall correctly the Hr10 was delayed, not to mention the cable software was also. Might not be rocket science, but there is a lot more involved then what people are assuming.

Why no more CE's? what exactly makes you say that? The Directv DVR is still going to be their primary unit, the TIVO based unit will by available to users as a alternate. don;t understand why you are figuring that teh TIVo based unit will be the only one, the press release specificly states that it will not be the primary unit and will only be available as a alternate. Suspect there will be a delay here also, given track records

Don't care if TIVo come back or not, would rather see a 100 percent integration with HTPC's then another single use box.


----------



## wingrider01

Doug Brott said:


> As for TiVo? Bring it on .. Today it is vaporware .. Will it be 12 months from today? :shrug: My belief is that it will be, yes .. I think the MPEG4 TiVo will be available on the last day of Q1 2010 .. just so that it can be said that it only slipped one quarter (right now they are saying EOY 2009).


Actually would be 2 quarters, since technically the original Press Release stated the "second half of 2009" starts on July 1 2009. Or did it already slip to EOY 2009?


----------



## tonyd79

Doug Brott said:


> You must not have had an SAT-T60 .. I had this problem constantly ..


Or an HR10 or a current HD Tivo. None of them respond instantly. In fact, that is WHY the thing makes a noise. To tell you it is doing something.

I love the mythology about Tivo.


----------



## tonyd79

rahlquist said:


> Tivo releases in 8 months
> D* decides to kill the HR line
> D* terminates CE program
> Tivo runs its own closed beta


That would tick me off.

Tivo is very slow in developing new functionality.

Look how much DirecTV has added in about two years. Tivo takes two years to add one or two new features.

A big part of it is that they are so closed with development and testing.

And the HR series has caught up and passed Tivo in many ways. What could be the condition in another two years? Tivo is slowly adding bolt-ons that don't integrate well while DVR+ is developing an integrated platform full of bells and whistles.

Going to a Tivo only platform would be big step back in many ways.


----------



## Alan Gordon

tonyd79 said:


> Or an HR10 or a current HD Tivo. *None of them respond instantly.* In fact, that is WHY the thing makes a noise. To tell you it is doing something.
> 
> I love the mythology about Tivo.


My TiVo Series 3 is as fast, sometimes faster than my HR20-700.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

tonyd79 said:


> That would tick me off.
> 
> *Tivo is very slow in developing new functionality.*
> 
> Look how much DirecTV has added in about two years. Tivo takes two years to add one or two new features.
> 
> A big part of it is that they are so closed with development and testing.
> 
> And the HR series has caught up and passed Tivo in many ways. What could be the condition in another two years? Tivo is slowly adding bolt-ons that don't integrate well while DVR+ is developing an integrated platform full of bells and whistles.
> 
> Going to a Tivo only platform would be big step back in many ways.


How much more functionality does a TiVo need? I can think of maybe three or four features/enhancements that a TiVo could use that a HR2x has, but I can think of MANY features that DirecTV has yet to or will never add to the HR20-700.

I'm not saying this to insult the HR2x as it's been very reliable for me, and I'm somewhat pleased with it, but rather to point out that TiVo's been around a lot longer than the HR2x series, so it's only natural for DirecTV to have to play some amount of "catch-up".

~Alan


----------



## Doug Brott

wingrider01 said:


> Actually would be 2 quarters, since technically the original Press Release stated the "second half of 2009" starts on July 1 2009. Or did it already slip to EOY 2009?


Second half end on 12/31/2009  .. since when does ANY company make it by day one of their announced period.


----------



## mikewolf13

tonyd79 said:


> Going to a Tivo only platform would be big step back in many ways.


A Welcome step back to me....

I will reserve judgement but my experience with the DVR+ was so dissapointing, I may come back to DTV..but I won't be an early adopter....

3 years after the R15..and they still are hit and miss..still can't tell when "channels i recieve" and stil can't go over 50 series.

hopefully this joint venture works very well...whether this improves or replaces the DVR+ line is to be seen, but I am sure it won't be worse...and probably won't need 3 years to "catch up and pass" the DVR+ line

Now how long it actually takes to come out...well.......I set the Over under July 2010.....


----------



## DarinC

tonyd79 said:


> Tivo is very slow in developing new functionality.
> 
> Look how much DirecTV has added in about two years.


Perhaps it's because there's not nearly as much left to add to a TiVo. They've had MRV, TiVo to go, etc., for a LONG time. If DirecTV had stuck with TiVo, and released TiVo features on the DirecTV boxes as TiVo was releasing them, we would have had many the major features that people are _still _clammoring for on the HR2x several years ago.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

DIRECTV's TiVo receivers never had MRV, Tivo-to-go, or other advanced features without hacking.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> DIRECTV's TiVo receivers never had MRV, Tivo-to-go, or other advanced features without hacking.


Does the HR2x have MRV or TiVo-To-Go?

~Alan


----------



## tonyd79

DarinC said:


> Perhaps it's because there's not nearly as much left to add to a TiVo. They've had MRV, TiVo to go, etc., for a LONG time. If DirecTV had stuck with TiVo, and released TiVo features on the DirecTV boxes as TiVo was releasing them, we would have had many the major features that people are _still _clammoring for on the HR2x several years ago.


Tivo was *always* slow with added functionality and very secretive with it as well. I don't like their development model compared to the DirecTV one.

Also, the added functionality that they have put in the Tivo in the last five years feels bolted on. The interface for swivel search is nothing like the rest of the interface and now my HD Tivo does a new trick. The sound blanks out while the guide populates.

Even bug fixes take 6 to 9 months to get out. And Tivo has had tons of bugs over the years.

I think their development cycle is slow because they limit the testing.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Alan Gordon said:


> Does the HR2x have MRV or TiVo-To-Go?
> 
> ~Alan


Ask me again before the second half of 2009.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Ask me again before the second half of 2009.




My point was simply that the reason why those features were available only by "hacking" was because DirecTV wanted them disabled... so it's not really TiVo's fault that you couldn't get those features outside of hacking... as they've had them (and other features) on the SA's for years.

If not for that, the DirecTiVo's would have beat the HR2x series by YEARS.

~Alan


----------



## DarinC

Stuart Sweet said:


> DIRECTV's TiVo receivers never had MRV, Tivo-to-go, or other advanced features without hacking.


Which is why I said if DirecTV had added the features as TiVo was releasing them. Or even reasonably soon afterwards. If you participated in the TiVo forums back when the TiVos were DirecTV's DVRs, and there were TiVo reps participating, you could always tell by their carefully worded responses that the issue was not getting the features on the DirecTV boxes, it was getting DirecTV to allow it.



tonyd79 said:


> Tivo was *always* slow with added functionality and very secretive with it as well.


But the fact remains that the biggest features that are frequently requested for the HR2x are available on TiVo, and have been for years.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

...and are you saying that you believe things have changed so much and now DIRECTV would allow those features in a new TiVo-based DVR?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> ...and are you saying that you believe things have changed so much and now DIRECTV would allow those features in a new TiVo-based DVR?


Are you saying that DirecTV won't allow TiVo to offer features on the new DirecTiVos that the DirecTV+ line will have?

~Alan


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I am saying that you know no more than what was said in the press release, and neither do I. Should this DVR reach market, and should we all survive the first uses of the large hadron collider, then we shall see.


----------



## Doug Brott

I'm not sure what features will or won't be available on the TiVo .. I do doubt that the new TiVos will be quite as hackable as the earlier ones, though. Content protection would be the main reason for that.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am saying that you know no more than what was said in the press release, and neither do I. Should this DVR reach market, and should we all survive the first uses of the large hadron collider, then we shall see.


Exactly! But when comparing the TiVo service/features/GUI to the HR2x series, we all have to remember that the software/firmware of the previous DirecTiVo isn't necessarrily comparable to the upcoming DirecTiVo HD... just like the HR2x series isn't comparable to the HR2x series a year from now.



Doug Brott said:


> I'm not sure what features will or won't be available on the TiVo .. I do doubt that the new TiVos will be quite as hackable as the earlier ones, though. Content protection would be the main reason for that.


While I still miss the old days of "owned" units where internal hard drives could be upgraded (instead of eSATA), I don't see why "hacks" would be all that neccessary if TiVo is allowed to update the new DirecTiVos with the features available for SAs.

~Alan


----------



## DarinC

Stuart Sweet said:


> ...and are you saying that you believe things have changed so much and now DIRECTV would allow those features in a new TiVo-based DVR?


I definitely believe the new TiVos won't be as hackable. Also, the disparity of features between the SA TiVos and DirecTiVos seemed to peak around the time that DirecTV was developing their own DVR, which might not be completely conicidental. So the reasons for being so tight with them may be reduced. I also don't see the point of releasing an alternate product with a premium price tag if they're going to restrict them down to similar features of the "basic" offering. Of course, only time will tell.


----------



## loudo

James Long said:


> An early look at the design for the new DirecTV TiVo project shows that it will not have DLB. I understand it was removed as an unneeded feature that not everyone used. Not something needed on a next generation DVR.
> 
> Just kidding ... I have no clue if the next DirecTV Tivo will have DLB or not. This early in the design anything anyone says is all a guess.


This early in the game, features of the new unit, are just a twinkle in the designers eyes. :whatdidid


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am saying that you know no more than what was said in the press release, and neither do I. Should this DVR reach market, and should we all survive the first uses of the large hadron collider, then we shall see.


It could all end up in a big black hole....:lol:

If not...pencil me in to author another First Look.


----------



## Alan Gordon

DarinC said:


> Also, the disparity of features between the SA TiVos and DirecTiVos seemed to peak around the time that DirecTV was developing their own DVR, which might not be completely conicidental. So the reasons for being so tight with them may be reduced.


Are you sure about this Darin? I could have sworn that TiVo had been "held back" for quite some time before Rupert decided to go "in-house"?



DarinC said:


> I also don't see the point of releasing an alternate product with a premium price tag if they're going to restrict them down to similar features of the "basic" offering. Of course, only time will tell.


I don't believe the "premium price tag" was DirecTV's idea. As for similar features of as the "basic" offering, if TiVo is restricted to the same functions as the older DirecTiVos, the HR2x series might actually have a SUPERIOR feature set by EOY 2009.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

A simple click to www.directv.com ...

First headline highlight ... "The product will support the* latest* TiVo and DIRECTV features and services ..."

We'll all wait and see what "*latest*" means ...

top headline ... word for word ... DirecTV front page ...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> A simple click to www.directv.com ...
> 
> First headline highlight ... "The product will support the* latest* TiVo and DIRECTV features and services ..."
> 
> We'll all wait and see what "*latest*" means ...
> 
> top headline ... word for word ...


But... what about the OLDER features like MRV and TTG? 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> But... what about the OLDER features like MRV and TTG?
> 
> ~Alan


To me ... "latest" is all that's in Series3 9.4 ... 

To repeat ...

Keep Existing TiVo HD features:

Same or better performance then TiVo HD XL
Dual-Live-Buffers (DLB)
Multi-Room-Viewing (MRV) for both SD and HD
Tivo-to-Go (TTG) for both SD and HD (with free TiVo Desktop software) to laptops/iPod/Mac/PSP
Home Media Option (HMO) with Photos (in HD), Music, and Video (with free TiVo Desktop software)
Internet based Music, Photos / Video (Picassa, Photobucket, One True Media, Rhapsody, Live365, Podcaster, ...)
KidZone
Universal Swivel Search
Wishlist Search
TiVo Suggestions
You Tube (be able to search and view any You Tube Video)
Choice of "Tivo" guide or "Grid" guide (overlay during "live TV" or a recording)
eSATA support
TiVo Wireless Support
Ability of remote to power on/off both TV and Home Theater Receiver with one press
That's all the existing stuff that works 100% today.

Then add the DirecTV necessary support:

Satellite dual tuner support
MPEG4 HD
SWM
Dish guided setup
And then the critical DirecTV features:

DirecTV-on-Demand (DoD)
Interactive capabilities
New Tivo Peanut Remote with Red, Green, Yellow, Blue buttons
1080p Support (for movies)


----------



## DarinC

Alan Gordon said:


> Are you sure about this Darin? I could have sworn that TiVo had been "held back" for quite some time before Rupert decided to go "in-house"?


No, I just remember that being my perception at the time. I agree that they were "held back" for quite a while, but it mostly just seemed like a really long delay. It seemed like the really big ones didn't happen until after the HR10 was released, then not much later we learn they are working on their own boxes. But that was a long time ago, and my memory ain't great, which is why I used "seemed". 



> I don't believe the "premium price tag" was DirecTV's idea. As for similar features of as the "basic" offering, if TiVo is restricted to the same functions as the older DirecTiVos, the HR2x series might actually have a SUPERIOR feature set by EOY 2009.


But that's my point... if the TiVos end up not being a tangible upgrade over the HR2x, why would _either_ of them, regardless of who's idea it was, even bother going forward with this under the premise of being a premium option? If they were to charge a premium for a product that is <= the standard option, it seems like even typing up the press release would be a waste of time.


----------



## Alan Gordon

DarinC said:


> But that's my point... if the TiVos end up not being a tangible upgrade over the HR2x, why would _either_ of them, regardless of who's idea it was, even bother going forward with this under the premise of being a premium option? If they were to charge a premium for a product that is <= the standard option, it seems like even typing up the press release would be a waste of time.


Make NO mistake. I am a TiVo "fan". It just fits my needs darn near perfect.

Make NO mistake. I am NOT a HR20 "hater". I have "issues" with the HR20... some of which has been worked on, some of which have improved, some of which will most likely be improved, and some of which, I seriously doubt will come light. That being said, it's been a pretty stable unit for me.

However, even as a TiVo "fan", I have to admit that there is a certain amount of "hubris" associated with the company these days... main thing being the fees. Perhaps TiVo might feel there are enough TiVo fans out there who would take a "neutered" TiVo over a HR2x or a Cableco DVR.

~Alan


----------



## wesmills

raott said:


> Its a DVR, not an atom splitter.


Good point. This entire discussion is moot because the world ends on Wednesday, anyway.



raott said:


> I'm sensing people here starting to get antsy about a new Tivo HD. I believe that is for a couple of reasons.
> 
> First, IMO, it signals an end to the DVR+ line, I know many will disagree with that, but I really do not see D* supporting two entirely different product lines. It makes zero sense to do that. I'll bet the same people that will argue D* is going to support two product lines in the long run, are the same ones who insisted for years that Tivo was never coming back.
> 
> Second, if the first happens, it takes alot of people here out of the D* loop and makes this site much less relevant. No more CEs and no more "insider knowlege". There seems to be alot of protectionism and burying heads in the sand going on as well as what appears to be rooting against Tivo coming back.


I'm not so sure you're correct here. DirecTV still technically supports three DVR product lines: DirecTiVos, DirecTV Plus DVRs and UltimateTV. The latter just got a software update last year, even though it's been abandoned in the wilderness for at least the past three. I can still call for tech support on a UTV.

Nor do I think that the majority of the "TiVo bashing" (again, I don't think it's bashing; this is a personal preference, like PC vs. Mac) here is borne out of jealousy or paranoia over losing the CE program. Frankly, that sort of speculation is the hallmark of uninformed forums everywhere. Could it happen? Sure. In fact, it is the most likely outcome if your prediction comes true.

Will it happen? I doubt it (but I've been wrong before). Unless DirecTV buys TiVo--which will ruin the latter company for the "hackers" lickety-split--there will be the need to keep some form of development up and going for the HR2x boxes. This is doubly so if the TiVo option is positioned as a higher-cost premium choice, because the HR2x boxes will still need to be developed and supported for those who don't purchase TiVo.


----------



## Alan Gordon

wesmills said:


> Good point. This entire discussion is moot because the world ends on Wednesday, anyway.


So... what you're saying is that all this discussion is hypothetical as the DirecTiVo HD will never come out, the HR2x will never get DLB, unlimited Series Links, or MRV, and DirecTV will never offer locals (SD or HD) to my area... and above all else, the Coke (Sprite) I drink tonight will be my last?

Oh well, at least I won't have to pay the bills anymore... 

~Alan


----------



## Richierich

What exactly is "SWIVEL SEARCH"???


----------



## Alan Gordon

richierich said:


> What exactly is "SWIVEL SEARCH"???


Universal Swivel Search

~Alan


----------



## EricRobins

Doug Brott said:


> This thread stays .. Our aim is to keep one monster thread on this topic much the same as the DLB thread and the D10, D11 and D12 threads in the General
> Forum.. There may be the occasional situation where additional threads are warranted, but for the most part news / discussion will be housed here.


Thats my point. There is no NEWS and all this discussion is merely TiVo lovers/haters and mere speculation.


----------



## harsh

wingrider01 said:


> Why no more CE's? what exactly makes you say that?


Since when has TiVo done anything that looked like the CE process? Are they hosting a forum somewhere?


> The Directv DVR is still going to be their primary unit, the TIVO based unit will by available to users as a alternate.


If TiVo makes a go of it, the DIRECTV effort will likely play second fiddle to all but the most die-hard DIRECTV apologists that have been spending the last two years trying to convince everyone that the HR2x platform is so much better than the HR10.

It was one thing to go on and on about the features missing from the HR10, but it will be an entirely different discussion when the HR2x faithful have to mount an argument against an up-to-date TiVo unit with ostensibly the same hardware.


----------



## Alan Gordon

EricRobins said:


> Thats my point. There is no NEWS and all this discussion is merely TiVo lovers/haters and mere speculation.


Yes, BUT if this thread wasn't here, the TiVo lovers/haters would have speculation threads all over the place.

~Alan


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> Since when has TiVo done anything that looked like the CE process?


Well, certainly not the same as the CE program, but they have participated at the tivocommunity forums, and they have had beta testers there. Obviously not nearly as public as the CE program though.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> Since when has TiVo done anything that looked like the CE process? Are they hosting a forum somewhere?If TiVo makes a go of it, the DIRECTV effort will likely play second fiddle to all but the most die-hard DIRECTV apologists that have been spending the last two years trying to convince everyone that the HR2x platform is so much better than the HR10.
> 
> It was one thing to go on and on about the features missing from the HR10, but it will be an entirely different discussion when the HR2x faithful have to mount an argument against an up-to-date TiVo unit with ostensibly the same hardware.


Hmmm .. you could also argue that a larger number of people have already invested both time and money to move to the HR2x platform (many having never used TiVo, BTW) .. what would be the reason for switching if they have to invest even more time and money ..

Yes, some will change, but you are assuming that it will be in droves .. I suspect a year from now people will have to think long and hard about whether or not they want to move to a TiVo enabled platform.


----------



## Doug Brott

Alan Gordon said:


> Yes, BUT if this thread wasn't here, the TiVo lovers/haters would have speculation threads all over the place.
> 
> ~Alan


 which is my point


----------



## DarinC

Doug Brott said:


> I suspect a year from now people will have to think long and hard about whether or not they want to move to a TiVo enabled platform.


I had a good experience with my TiVos. So far, my HR2x experience has been bumpy. Even still, it's no where near an automatic for me. We have yet to see what the TiVo product will be, whether or not it will improve on the reliability issues, and most importantly, what it will cost. Personally, I think TiVo has a great product. But it's still just TV. There IS a limit to what I will spend on it. In fact, it should be much less than what I already AM spending on it. :sure:


----------



## ATARI

I am not a TiVo fanboi.

But I do like my DLB and well thought-out UI.

So, if there was an MPEG4 DirecTiVo today, I would get one.

But, of course, things may change by this time next year.


----------



## Lee L

EricRobins said:


> Thats my point. There is no NEWS and all this discussion is merely TiVo lovers/haters and mere speculation.


When there is news, I am sure one of the mods will post it for all to see. Now, If you just skip this thread altogether, you will no longer be bothered by it.

THe fact that it is still getting tons of posts by definition means it has not run its course.


----------



## Sixto

Challenge #1 for TiVo ...

Want to get some momentum ... 

Want to get some confidence in "2nd Half 2009" ... 

Then ...

Have a prototype running at 2009 CES ...

On January 8th ... have a box in the TiVo booth running version 9.4 (or later) ... with total HD content from the DirecTV D10/D11 Satellites ...

No DoD, no interactive, nothing special ... just what's in 9.4 fully functional with DirecTV HD content ...

Then we'd be cooking with some gas ...

May be impossible ... but you gotta have big time goals to do big time things!


----------



## tthunder38

Doug Brott said:


> Someone did note that it was now available with TiVo's newest STB .. and your RCA Ultimate TV STB may very well have done this, but I assure you the older (even HR10-250) STB's did not do this ..


I realize and agree with that.....and therein lies my gripe. I've been through 
D-10's, R-15's, HR-10's and now have two HR20's that have two tuners but you can only view one at a time. I've had UTV for 8-10 yrs and just assumed when I upgraded that what I considered to be a basic feature would be included. But for whatever reason thats not the case.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Challenge #1 for TiVo ...
> 
> Want to get some momentum ...
> 
> Want to get some confidence in "2nd Half 2009" ...
> 
> Then ...
> 
> Have a prototype running at 2009 CES ...
> 
> On January 8th ... have a box in the TiVo booth running version 9.4 (or later) ... with total HD content from the DirecTV D10/D11 Satellites ...
> 
> No DoD, no interactive, nothing special ... just what's in 9.4 fully functional with DirecTV HD content ...
> 
> Then we'd be cooking with some gas ...
> 
> May be impossible ... but you gotta have big time goals to do big time things!


One more point ...

And you really want to get some press ... (!)

Have two boxes , a laptop, networked with an internet connection ... and show DLB, MRV, TTG, and HMO ...

January 8th, 2009 
2009 International CES
Booth: North Hall Meeting Rooms N201, N202, N203, N205

Challenge issued ...


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, some will change, but you are assuming that it will be in droves .. I suspect a year from now people will have to think long and hard about whether or not they want to move to a TiVo enabled platform.


If TiVo delivers on what is expected of a modern TiVo, it will indeed be a mass exodus. Unless DIRECTV cuts a fat hog by gouging their customers TiVo-style, the price difference will not be a consideration.

If, OTOH, TiVo delivers the way that they delivered for Comcast and Cox, the HR2x idolizers have absolutely nothing to fear.

I suppose the upshot of this is that if TiVo fails to deliver for DIRECTV, TiVo will likely cease to exist as we know it as nobody will want to partner with them for DVR software. Let's be realistic: the _promise_ of partnering with MCVPs is what's keeping TiVo alive. At some point they will realize that the unresolved litigation isn't bringing them any monies and they will be forced to retreat as they did previously with Replay and hope for sunnier days.


----------



## Sixto

I must be the only dope who thinks this is easy ... 

Geez, take 9.4 today, running Linux, in production, on the Broadcom BCM7401 processor. You got it running just fine today. Geez, it's been running for two years.

Take the DirecTV access card technology and satellite tuners you have today. Running on two million boxes today (!) for years.

Put the two together by January 8th.

Nothing special, no new functions, leave out SWM if you want. Forget about tuning MPEG4 trickplay.

This can't be that hard.

Offer a Christmas bonus to the team. You got 3 and a half months!


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> I must be the only dope who thinks this is easy ...


I've tried to temper my expectations with the knowledge that DIRECTV hasn't been able to pull off many of the key features in the over two years that they've been tilting at the windmill.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> I've tried to temper my expectations with the knowledge that DIRECTV hasn't been able to pull off many of the key features in the over two years that they've been tilting at the windmill.


Nothing new here.

No new invention required for a prototype.

Take existing 9.4 and existing access card and satellite tuner support.

Ok, you gotta tweak some stuff, maybe different drivers.

January 8th ... put on a big show!


----------



## LarryD

Finally they are giving up on this amaturish crap they have been trying to make work and going back to the experts!


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> If TiVo delivers on what is expected of a modern TiVo, it will indeed be a mass exodus. Unless DIRECTV cuts a fat hog by gouging their customers TiVo-style, the price difference will not be a consideration.


Price is the BIGGEST consideration .. I guarantee you this. Just as an example, I was in Fry's just 2 days back and a Father/Daughter was tag-teaming the display .. not looking for a specific brand of Hard Disk Drive, but the cheapest 500GB HDD they could find. I'm not even going to claim that their thought process was smart, but the fact is most people look at the price and make their decision based on that alone ..

So, HD DVR sitting in my living room already for $x or go through the change process for $x + $y? Ask anyone on the street .. even mention TiVo .. It's gotta be worth it to make the change.

I think many of us here would agree that it will be a minimum of $5/account extra plus a fee to get the receiver. What does TiVo charge per-receiver for the HD box now? Perhaps the new model is $10/receiver or $15/receiver .. Is this unreasonable?

Just don't be surprised if the mass exodus doesn't happen ..

How many HR2x systems will you be removing from your account when the TiVo becomes available?


----------



## kramer

Doug Brott said:


> How many HR2x systems will you be removing from your account when the TiVo becomes available?


Two


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> Price is the BIGGEST consideration .. I guarantee you this. Just as an example, I was in Fry's just 2 days back and a Father/Daughter was tag-teaming the display .. not looking for a specific brand of Hard Disk Drive, but the cheapest 500GB HDD they could find. I'm not even going to claim that their thought process was smart, but the fact is most people look at the price and make their decision based on that alone ..
> 
> So, HD DVR sitting in my living room already for $x or go through the change process for $x + $y? Ask anyone on the street .. even mention TiVo .. It's gotta be worth it to make the change.
> 
> I think many of us here would agree that it will be a minimum of $5/account extra plus a fee to get the receiver. What does TiVo charge per-receiver for the HD box now? Perhaps the new model is $10/receiver or $15/receiver .. Is this unreasonable?
> 
> Just don't be surprised if the mass exodus doesn't happen ..
> 
> How many HR2x systems will you be removing from your account when the TiVo becomes available?


Doug,

I agree.

It seems that it all depends on how the HR2x hardware compares to the Series3 hardware. Just hardware to hardware, chip to chip.

If a thorough technical evaluation results in the HR2x hardware being at least as good a performer as the Series3 then the chances for wild success goes up dramatically.

If a new box is required, there still may be success, but a mass exodus ain't happening.

It may happen over time, but certainly not in the short term.

Interesting balance they need to deal with. Create a "new" box that performs great but has big upfront investment (and less mass appeal). Or have a version for the HR2x hardware that has zero upfront $ but maybe doesn't perform as well.

Saw a mention that the HR2x hardware is "close" to the TiVo HD "reference design". Not sure how true.

I'm sure the experts will know soon enough ...

For me personally, lovin the HR2x, but always hungry to give something new a whirl.

January 8th ... come on TiVo ...

Ok, will give TiVo an out, they can cover up the box so we don't see what hardware it is, just show 9.4 with full content from D10/D11 in the CES booth ...


----------



## JerseyBoy

Doug Brott said:


> How many HR2x systems will you be removing from your account when the TiVo becomes available?


NONE!!!!
I would pay up to $20 a month NOT to have TiVo


----------



## DarinC

kramer said:


> Two


+1 (as in two, also. Not three)



JerseyBoy said:


> NONE!!!!
> I would pay up to $20 a month NOT to have TiVo


Awsome! I'll tell you what. You pay me $20/month, and you can keep your HR2x. I'll turn that around to fund my upgrade to TiVos. One of my HR2x's is owned... I'll even GIVE you that box as long as you agree to a 2yr committment of sending me $20/month. Everybody wins.


----------



## mp11

Sixto said:


> This can't be that hard.
> 
> Offer a Christmas bonus to the team. You got 3 and a half months!


Hell, you got me sold!


----------



## mp11

DarinC said:


> +1 (as in two, also. Not three)
> 
> Awsome! I'll tell you what. You pay me $20/month, and you can keep your HR2x. I'll turn that around to fund my upgrade to TiVos. One of my HR2x's is owned... I'll even GIVE you that box as long as you agree to a 2yr committment of sending me $20/month. Everybody wins.


I was just thinking the same thing.


----------



## JerseyBoy

DarinC said:


> +1 (as in two, also. Not three)
> 
> Awsome! I'll tell you what. You pay me $20/month, and you can keep your HR2x. I'll turn that around to fund my upgrade to TiVos. One of my HR2x's is owned... I'll even GIVE you that box as long as you agree to a 2yr committment of sending me $20/month. Everybody wins.


You missed the point. Why pay extra when you don't get anything for it. All you get by having TiVo is being able to say you Tivo'd it instead of correctly saying you recorded it. To be correct that is not all you get you also get, you also get a whole new set up bugs and an inferior user interface.


----------



## mp11

JerseyBoy said:


> You missed the point. Why pay extra when you don't get anything for it. All you get by having TiVo is being able to say you Tivo'd it instead of correctly saying you recorded it. To be correct that is not all you get you also get, you also get a whole new set up bugs and an inferior user interface.


I think you dont have a clue about Tivo. Inform yourself *before* you make comments like these.


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> Price is the BIGGEST consideration .. I guarantee you this. Just as an example, I was in Fry's just 2 days back and a Father/Daughter was tag-teaming the display .. not looking for a specific brand of Hard Disk Drive, but the cheapest 500GB HDD they could find. I'm not even going to claim that their thought process was smart, but the fact is most people look at the price and make their decision based on that alone ..
> 
> So, HD DVR sitting in my living room already for $x or go through the change process for $x + $y? Ask anyone on the street .. even mention TiVo .. It's gotta be worth it to make the change.
> 
> I think many of us here would agree that it will be a minimum of $5/account extra plus a fee to get the receiver. What does TiVo charge per-receiver for the HD box now? Perhaps the new model is $10/receiver or $15/receiver .. Is this unreasonable?
> 
> Just don't be surprised if the mass exodus doesn't happen ..
> 
> How many HR2x systems will you be removing from your account when the TiVo becomes available?


Exactly.

Mass exodus...from where? Maybe 5-10K fanatics on this and other forums? In the first 3 months of availability I could see maybe 50K units sold. By end of 2009, beginning 2010 how many SD DirecTivo users that don't already have HD will there be? 1 million left? Maybe? That's your audience that may get the new HD DirecTivo HD unit.

Once again, to the general public all DVRs are Tivo.

So here will be the sign up procedure for new subs or those subs upgrading to HD: 
DirecTV: We have 2 HD DVR options for you. There is the standard HD DVR that costs X (nor more monthly for a current sub replacing an SD unti). We also have the Tivo powered DVR that will cost an extra $5/$10 a month and perhaps even X more up front.
Joe Subscriber: Hmmm, well give me the regular HD DVR that's cheaper, I don't want to spend that extra. Maybe later

Only the chosen few who actually know the difference will seriously think about going with the upcharge, I guarantee you that one. That's not to say anything bad here, great there is a choice. But to expect millions upon million to all of a sudden dump a DVR they've had for a while and works just fine for them is plain silly. Only the fanatics on these forums that just can't live without Tivo will be jumping on the bandwagon. Most subs will be "wait and see", assuming they even know there is a choice, and when they see there is an extra cost for the Tivo over what they have now most will balk. Heck, if someone is so upset with the DirecTV DVR they have now what makes you think they will pay *more* to try a different one from DirecTV, the company they are already upset with because of a bumb DVR? I'd bet they'll leave for cable or Dish before they do that.

Anyway...the new HD DirecTivo will be a niche product. By end of 2011, assuming it's out on time, I'd see perhaps half a million DirecTV subs with one, maybe a full million if there is a huge marketing push. Compare to probably nearly 10 million (if not much more) with the HR20/21/22/3x (already millions out there).


----------



## Alan Gordon

JerseyBoy said:


> You missed the point. Why pay extra when you don't get anything for it. All you get by having TiVo is being able to say you Tivo'd it instead of correctly saying you recorded it. To be correct that is not all you get you also get, you also get a whole new set up bugs and an inferior user interface.


I'm not really sure why I'm replying to this as it's obvious you have your own set of feelings, BUT I get A LOT more from my TiVo Series (heck, even my HR10-250) than I do my HR20... aside from more HD channels (which is why I have the HR20 to begin with).

As for TiVo having the "inferior user interface", that would be a matter of opinion. I personally would trade the HR20 GUI for the TiVo in a flash... heck, I'd probably even pay a dollar or two extra to get the TiVo GUI over the HR20 GUI. THAT BEING SAID, I very well could prefer the GUI DirecTV intends to offer next year better than the TiVo GUI... I just don't know... yet.

~Alan


----------



## bonscott87

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm not really sure why I'm replying to this as it's obvious you have your own set of feelings, BUT I get A LOT more from my TiVo Series (heck, even my HR10-250) than I do my HR20... aside from more HD channels (which is why I have the HR20 to begin with).
> 
> As for TiVo having the "inferior user interface", that would be a matter of opinion. I personally would trade the HR20 GUI for the TiVo in a flash... heck, I'd probably even pay a dollar or two extra to get the TiVo GUI over the HR20 GUI. THAT BEING SAID, I very well could prefer the GUI DirecTV intends to offer next year better than the TiVo GUI... I just don't know... yet.
> 
> ~Alan


Good points. GUI aside it will come down to what features the units have. If the new Tivo unit has more features I want and the upcharge is worth it to get those features then I'll be all over it. But if the cost isn't worth it to me then I'll stick with what I have. I don't care what the GUI is one way or another. I'll go back to Tivo if the features make it worth it. That simple.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

bonscott87 said:


> Good points. GUI aside it will come down to what features the units have. If the new Tivo unit has more features I want and the upcharge is worth it to get those features then I'll be all over it. But if the cost isn't worth it to me then I'll stick with what I have. I don't care what the GUI is one way or another. I'll go back to Tivo if the features make it worth it. That simple.


I agree completely with you and Doug on this one.

It's all about the money. I don't care one lick what the brand is. And, frankly, I don't really give a whole lot of thought to how "intuitive" the GUI is.

There are probably some things that the Tivo GUI handles more gracefully. There are some that the DirecTV GUI handles more gracefully.

GUI alone won't sell me one way or another.

Also.... IMHO, I just don't see the TIVO interface having "more features" than the DirecTV one will. I envision a collaborative effort which should improve both platforms. And *if* the features are comparable between the two machines, I don't see a mass exodus occurring.


----------



## Sixto

Don't give a hoot about the GUI. 

Now ... DLB, MRV, TTG, true swift HMO, You Tube access, onetruemedia, Podcaster, KidZone for those that care, and I might give it a whirl ... maybe the HR2x will have the same by then and then won't care about TiVo. 

Either way we get it all (hopefully).


----------



## DarinC

JerseyBoy said:


> You missed the point. Why pay extra when you don't get anything for it. All you get by having TiVo is being able to say you Tivo'd it instead of correctly saying you recorded it. To be correct that is not all you get you also get, you also get a whole new set up bugs and an inferior user interface.


Apparently I missed the thread that revealed that not only are the details of the new TiVo already out, but it's already been confirmed that they are actually now significantly worse than they were several years ago.


----------



## JerseyBoy

mp11 said:


> I think you dont have a clue about Tivo. Inform yourself *before* you make comments like these.


After using ReplayTV for several years I got a hr10-250 because I wanted an HD DVR. Used it for 2 years and cursed it every day because it was such an inferior DVR compared to the ReplayTV. The HR2x was a huge improvement over the hr10 and when it has MRV it will be as good as ReplayTV. So if you think I am not inform about TiVo then you are the one who is clueless.


----------



## Alan Gordon

JerseyBoy said:


> After using ReplayTV for several years I got a hr10-250 because I wanted an HD DVR. Used it for 2 years and cursed it every day because it was such an inferior DVR compared to the ReplayTV. The HR2x was a huge improvement over the hr10 and when it has MRV it will be as good as ReplayTV. So if you think I am not inform about TiVo then you are the one who is clueless.


Aren't we all cluless?!

Look guys, it's a personal preference, nothing else. I'm very upfront about my preference for TiVo over the HR20 (never used ReplayTV) and I'm still amazed at the people who think the HR2x is better, but I realize that not everybody is the same.

Maybe it's a good time to remember that... 

~Alan


----------



## HawkEye19

Could someone please do me a favor and tell me why the two of the moderators have no "moderation" when it comes to their obvious love for the HR2x series, and distinct dislike for anything having to do with Tivo? To me, it is never a good sign when the moderators have an slant to their posts. I will also reference a fawing review/update of the HR2x series posted a couple of months back that read rather like a Direct TV press release.


----------



## Phil21

JerseyBoy said:


> After using ReplayTV for several years I got a hr10-250 because I wanted an HD DVR. Used it for 2 years and cursed it every day because it was such an inferior DVR compared to the ReplayTV. The HR2x was a huge improvement over the hr10 and when it has MRV it will be as good as ReplayTV. So if you think I am not inform about TiVo then you are the one who is clueless.


Really? Interesting. I would peg "record the shows I tell it to" as more or less the #1 feature of a DVR. After that, it's user preference.

Since the HRXX series completely fails at the whole "recording stuff reliably" thing, it is FAR inferior to the HR10-250 these units replaced.

If you haven't had issues with the blank/black recording, then you are simply lucky at this point. You will!

If these units reliably recorded stuff, I would agree - personal preference. Tivo certainly has some better features, but then again, so does the HRXX series.

In the end though, for me, the reliability of my tivo units is something I *very* sorely miss. KNOWING that my show was being recorded while I worked late, was much better than the current hoping I do now.

I also do miss the "suggestions" functionality of Tivo, even if rarely used. That is about the only real thing I miss other than you know, my shows being there when I want to watch them.


----------



## Doug Brott

HawkEye19 said:


> Could someone please do me a favor and tell me why the two of the moderators have no "moderation" when it comes to their obvious love for the HR2x series, and distinct dislike for anything having to do with Tivo? To me, it is never a good sign when the moderators have an slant to their posts. I will also reference a fawing review/update of the HR2x series posted a couple of months back that read rather like a Direct TV press release.


If it's any consolation, I still have an SAT-T60 Standard Definition active on my account and it gets used daily ..

We encourage everyone to voice their opinions here .. and that includes the moderators .. There are a number of guidelines that we follow on this site and regardless of how you feel about my opinions, I think you'll find that we are fair in allowing others to voice their opinions.

Now, since this is a thread about TiVo and not a thread about Doug Brott .. I think it's time to get :backtotop .. otherwise moderation duties will, in fact take over.


----------



## JerseyBoy

Phil21 said:


> Really? Interesting. I would peg "record the shows I tell it to" as more or less the #1 feature of a DVR. After that, it's user preference.
> 
> Since the HRXX series completely fails at the whole "recording stuff reliably" thing, it is FAR inferior to the HR10-250 these units replaced.
> 
> If you haven't had issues with the blank/black recording, then you are simply lucky at this point. You will!
> 
> If these units reliably recorded stuff, I would agree - personal preference. Tivo certainly has some better features, but then again, so does the HRXX series.
> 
> In the end though, for me, the reliability of my tivo units is something I *very* sorely miss. KNOWING that my show was being recorded while I worked late, was much better than the current hoping I do now.
> 
> I also do miss the "suggestions" functionality of Tivo, even if rarely used. That is about the only real thing I miss other than you know, my shows being there when I want to watch them.


I have had the complete opposite experience. The hr10 frequently did not record shows I wanted when I used the first run only (or whatever they called that feature) setting on a season pass. I have 2 HR2x untis and both are close to the limit of 50 on the series links with most set to first run and I don't recall ever missing a recording. For me the HR2x has been way more reliable than the HR10 (TiVo)


----------



## wesmills

Sharkie_Fan said:


> It's all about the money.


That seems to be a recurring theme.

Why does it have to be "all about the money?" If cost is truly the bottom-line option, then why hasn't everyone jumped ship to Dish Network or basic cable? Generally, DirecTV is more expensive than the other options, yet they seem to be doing well for themselves, even to Dish's detriment. Cost is not the final arbiter, nor should it be (look where it got us with air travel).

If the TiVo service is superior, marketed well and gets good word of mouth (note that those last two are almost out of TiVo's hands), I believe it will take off, especially considering that a lot of people who have had issues with the HR2x series are generally the "tech geek" for their family or friends and are in a position to recommend this new unit to those people.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> Price is the BIGGEST consideration .. I guarantee you this.


Given the public statement from TiVo about the DIRECTV cost difference being all of $0.50 cents initially, only greed would make the new unit substantially more expensive. I'm guessing more than a few would be willing to pay an extra dollar or so to find out what this TiVo thing is all about.


----------



## generalpatton78

harsh said:


> Since when has TiVo done anything that looked like the CE process? Are they hosting a forum somewhere?


Actually yes it is private but a testing forum non the less and yes I have been on it before.



harsh said:


> If TiVo delivers on what is expected of a modern TiVo, it will indeed be a mass exodus. Unless DIRECTV cuts a fat hog by gouging their customers TiVo-style, the price difference will not be a consideration.
> 
> If, OTOH, TiVo delivers the way that they delivered for Comcast and Cox, the HR2x idolizers have absolutely nothing to fear.
> 
> I suppose the upshot of this is that if TiVo fails to deliver for DIRECTV, TiVo will likely cease to exist as we know it as nobody will want to partner with them for DVR software. Let's be realistic: the _promise_ of partnering with MCVPs is what's keeping TiVo alive. At some point they will realize that the unresolved litigation isn't bringing them any monies and they will be forced to retreat as they did previously with Replay and hope for sunnier days.


Ahhhh a Dish lovers fantasy thanks for sharing.:hurah: 



Doug Brott said:


> Price is the BIGGEST consideration .. I guarantee you this. Just as an example, I was in Fry's just 2 days back and a Father/Daughter was tag-teaming the display .. not looking for a specific brand of Hard Disk Drive, but the cheapest 500GB HDD they could find. I'm not even going to claim that their thought process was smart, but the fact is most people look at the price and make their decision based on that alone ..
> 
> So, HD DVR sitting in my living room already for $x or go through the change process for $x + $y? Ask anyone on the street .. even mention TiVo .. It's gotta be worth it to make the change.
> 
> I think many of us here would agree that it will be a minimum of $5/account extra plus a fee to get the receiver. What does TiVo charge per-receiver for the HD box now? Perhaps the new model is $10/receiver or $15/receiver .. Is this unreasonable?
> 
> Just don't be surprised if the mass exodus doesn't happen ..
> 
> How many HR2x systems will you be removing from your account when the TiVo becomes available?


I don't care how many they sell because I just care I can finally get a MPEG4 Directv Tivo!! I'd be happy for the most part with my HR10-250 if it had Mpeg 4 support. I mean a 50SL just doesn't cut it for me on the HR2x. On the other hand I love DOD now that some real HD has been added (Showtime has been great), but I expect Amazon Unbox to be replaced with DOD .


----------



## Brennok

JerseyBoy said:


> I have had the complete opposite experience. The hr10 frequently did not record shows I wanted when I used the first run only (or whatever they called that feature) setting on a season pass. I have 2 HR2x untis and both are close to the limit of 50 on the series links with most set to first run and I don't recall ever missing a recording. For me the HR2x has been way more reliable than the HR10 (TiVo)


I must say in all my years with Tivo I have never missed a recording that wasn't due to my fault such as having season passes in the wrong order or due to the network supplying the wrong guide data. The only time I have ever had a missed recording that wasn't because of having my passes in the wrong order was due to a show being pre-empted and pushed back a week at the last minute where the networks didn't update the guide information in time. I am curious to hear why your HR10 missed the recordings since the Tivo tells you.

Personally for me just having a limit of 50 series links shows the HR2X is designed around watching live TV with the ability to record versus watching what you want to watch when you want to watch it. In my house 50 shows wouldn't cover primetime.


----------



## RCY

bonscott87 said:


> ... By end of 2009, beginning 2010 how many SD DirecTivo users that don't already have HD will there be? ....


Don't know the total number, but if my SD DTivos hold out, and the HR2x remains in its current state, I do know one.  (Caveat: I already have a HTPC with OTA HD capability, so I can get by.)

If one of my SD DVRs dies, then I'll have to make a decision based on the available options at that future time. I've been with D* for 10+ years now and would like to stay. I don't give a rip about the TIVO interface, but DLB and rock solid stability are pretty important in that decision making process. If that comes in a HR2x box with D* software, great. If it's TIVO, fine. If D* can't manage that with either by then, it'll be time to move on.


----------



## Jhon69

loudo said:


> Wonder how the NFL DirecTV remotes will work with the new TIVO receiver. Remember the HR10-250 had it's own TIVO remote, nothing like a DirecTV remote.


Yea my first observation of the DirecTivo's "peanut" remote is,"Did they make this thing for munchkins"!.:nono2:

Ans yes DirecTV white remotes(Mine is the RC64RB) works just fine with my HR10-250 once you find the right code that Edmund(The Remote Master) posted in the DirecTivo Forum(Legacy).


----------



## Flyrx7

I think that no matter what, there should still only be (1) DVR subscription per account. Tivo can make their premium on the price of the unit alone.
If that were the case, I'd get one of each and compare them side by side.
Now if D* wants to charge seperately for each DVR type, then something isn't quite square. That will show that somewhere along the line, D* has an ulterior motive (which I'm still not convinced they don't have anyway).

If Tivo agreed to getting only what the market will bear for their software service or hardware, then they had better shine or D* will end up just buying them out in the long run. 

Now, if the HR2* still doesn't have DLB/MRV/working Mediashare/etc., by then, and their software remains buggy, then it will be a whole different ballgame. 
I'm thinking that the HD DVR engineering team at D* was just given an ultimatum.....get the HR2* units up to spec and make them the best DVR available. If they don't do that, they'll soon be looking for other employment.
Unless D* has already admitted defeat and will soon go the way of Tivo for good. Who knows?

As far as the DBStalk site bias' towards anything D* does, I believe it comes from the whole CE beta tester program. They have a vested interest and feel like part of the solution. While I think the program is great ( I have not participated however), it almost admits to D*'s own shortcomings in their DVR development. On the other hand, it opens the door for some great user base ideas (free of charge, BTW). You can draw your own conclusions.

At any rate, it's a long way out before anything will become of this anyway, so I'll check back in in about 9 months.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Phil21

DirecTV's CE program here is great. It shows that at least *part* of the company "gets it". That program is one of the large reasons I simply did not dump DirecTV when they ditched Tivo to begin with. I saw that maybe, just perhaps, they were changing their anti-customer trends and turning things around.

Jury is still out in my book. I see good things, but then the bad things.

I still will probably take quite some time to get over DirecTV purposefully crippling the DTivo units simply to try to lock revenue streams/keep "content" providers happy. I was one of the folks who did hack a bunch of DirecTivo's to enable MRV and such - which absolutely was *awesome* (at the time, lived in a dorm-complex sort of arrangement, and had about 7 other folks to network our Tivo's together with.. Anything you wanted to watch any time was usually to be found somewhere).

It seems they are on the "right track" with the HR2x series, but my user experience has not been stellar. If yours is good, then great! The units would be awesome (for me) if they were anywhere close to reliable. The steady stream of features is great as well, but stability and features should not be mutually exclusive.

Basically their development of the HR2x program is by far and away better than any other DVR setup than Tivo that I've had any experience with. However, that really isn't saying too much. When your competition is the horrible trash Comcast and other cable companies push out the door.. Lets just say the bar isn't set very high.

So.. I see the Tivo announcement possibly as a "back to DirecTV when it just worked great" option for me. Time will tell, however. Who knows, the new unit may completely suck. I will judge it when it gets here!

This is coming from a subscriber that has been active since about 1998 - at no time other than recently with my HR2x issues have I even considered ditching. I do miss DirecTV from "back in the day" when they were so much smaller and the new kid on the block, the current customer service cannot even hold a candle to what they once were. If customers such as myself are considering leaving due to their current DVR platform, I'm sure others are as well - so that may explain the Tivo thing.

Sorry, it's 3am here and I'm rambling 

-Phil


----------



## paulman182

There are a lot of subscribers, and more coming on board all the time, to whom "TiVo" is just a word. I've never seen one in operation.

Out of those people, it will take a lot of persuasion to get them to switch if the HR2x system they have is working properly.

A lot of them may not even know that they don't already have a "TiVo" due to the way that word is becoming generic.

I might get one because I am a "hardware" kinda guy and like trying new things. But I have no reason to yearn for it as a replacement for anything.


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> Secondly, DIRECTV has always supported multiple product lines .. So there is no reason to think this announcement would change that.


What I meant was, they will not be selling and marketing two separate product lines of DVRs in the long run. It is too expensive and creates too much customer confusion in the marketplace. IMO, in two years, there will be one brand of DVR being sold by D* and it will be a Tivo (that is not speaking as some kind of Tivo fanatic - I actually prefer the HR2x)



Doug Brott said:


> The "insider knowledge" that you speak of is a way for everyone to get information. Protectionism is when you hear nothing at all, and I do believe that folks can find and abundance of information here at DBSTalk .. it's unfortunate that you do not feel the same way.


You are mischaracterizing what I said about "protectionism". I simply meant I believe the level of negativity and skepticism regarding the Tivo announcement are derived from members here being "protective" of the HR2X series - since, with the HR2x series, they get to participate in CEs and mods get inside info. All of that would very likely cease if D* went Tivo as the only receiver they will sell in the future (which I firmly believe they intend to do).

I never once said you cannot find an abundance of information at this site so nothing is "unfortunate".


----------



## alwayscool

I am estatic that D* finally made peace with TIVO! My wife was very happy when I told her about the new HD TIVO. She's a diehard TIVO lover, and I would have to pry my old HR10-250 from her cold dead hands. LOL. I wish Earl was here because I used to argue with him about TIVO vs. the new HR20-700. By the way, I miss you Earl and wish you luck and prosperity in your new job, etc...


----------



## DarinC

JerseyBoy said:


> For me the HR2x has been way more reliable than the HR10 (TiVo)


Then I suggest you stick with it. Those of us who have not had the same luck as you (or anywhere near it) will be anxiously awaiting to see what the new TiVo is.


----------



## DarinC

RCY said:


> I don't give a rip about the TIVO interface, but DLB and rock solid stability are pretty important in that decision making process. If that comes in a HR2x box with D* software, great. If it's TIVO, fine. If D* can't manage that with either by then, it'll be time to move on.


Agreed. In fact, there are actually some things about the HR2x _interface _that I prefer. But in the end, if it spontaneously reboots while I'm using it, or locks up, or doesn't record something I expected it to without any good reason for not doing so, then it could rub my feet while it's booting and I still would trade it in for the good ol' reliable TiVo.



paulman182 said:


> A lot of them may not even know that they don't already have a "TiVo" due to the way that word is becoming generic.


I'm still skeptical that there's a significant portion of the public that has a DVR that doesn't realize that TiVo is a _brand_ of DVRs. But even if true, if/when DirecTV starts marketing the new TiVo, I would expect there'd be a list of features that would enable the layman to see what the difference is. It would have to be a pretty bad marketing strategy to just say "or you can get this box over hear with the little TiVo guy on the front for $xx more".


----------



## mp11

Phil21 said:


> I do miss DirecTV from "back in the day" when they were so much smaller and the new kid on the block, the current customer service cannot even hold a candle to what they once were. If customers such as myself are considering leaving due to their current DVR platform, I'm sure others are as well - so that may explain the Tivo thing.
> 
> Sorry, it's 3am here and I'm rambling
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe...but it's a good rambling. Those were Directv's "humble" beginnings. I first came on board in '96 and things just seemed alot less hectic...less "big dog" back then. But this new Tivo deal may just change my mind about the way things are today. Time will tell.
Click to expand...


----------



## DarinC

Maybe we should just consider the Newscorp period "the dark years".


----------



## StephenT

Brennok said:


> I must say in all my years with Tivo I have never missed a recording that wasn't due to my fault such as having season passes in the wrong order or due to the network supplying the wrong guide data. The only time I have ever had a missed recording that wasn't because of having my passes in the wrong order was due to a show being pre-empted and pushed back a week at the last minute where the networks didn't update the guide information in time. I am curious to hear why your HR10 missed the recordings since the Tivo tells you.
> 
> Personally for me just having a limit of 50 series links shows the HR2X is designed around watching live TV with the ability to record versus watching what you want to watch when you want to watch it. In my house 50 shows wouldn't cover primetime.


Agreed. Missed recordings on the HR10 were due to bad guide data or conflicts. If it missed a first run recording it was because the guide data said it was a rerun (never happened to me but certainly possible) or there was a conflict or no signal. Like I said I never had the miss a first run episode issue, but there was the problem of shows not being labeled as reruns so you'd get all of them over and over (like the daily show or the simpsons in syndication on my local FOX affiliate). That's just bad guide data not bad software.

Here's where the recording history on a TiVo is something I miss. If an episode was in the To Do List at any point in time, and then dropped from it, it would be in the history with the reason it was dropped. If you missed a recording you knew why and it was due to the software doing something it was supposed to do.


----------



## bonscott87

wesmills said:


> That seems to be a recurring theme.
> 
> Why does it have to be "all about the money?" If cost is truly the bottom-line option, then why hasn't everyone jumped ship to Dish Network or basic cable? Generally, DirecTV is more expensive than the other options, yet they seem to be doing well for themselves, even to Dish's detriment. Cost is not the final arbiter, nor should it be (look where it got us with air travel).


Content is #1. Then cost. Then customer support. Then some other stuff. Then the GUI of the DVR bringing up the rear for most people (sure not you but we're not talking about you or me).

Besides, not a single cable company around here is cheaper then DirecTV and Dish is only cheaper by what, 5 bucks or so? Cost is nearly the same all around these days so content becomes the overall #1 reason to choose a provider. DVR isn't a consideration and people will take whatever they are given. Most, if given a choice of $X or $X+$Y will take just $X unless they really see an advantage to $X+$Y. And that will all depend if DirecTV really pushes the Tivo platform and want to point out any advantages it may have. That will be the interesting thing.


----------



## Richierich

I wonder if the New TIVO will support OTA???

If so I will swap out my HR10-250s for the new one in a Heartbeat!!!

I still love having my HR10-250s because I get ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc, via OTA with very little rainfade if any and 90% of my recording is from those stations so I can record those events from those channels and then use my HR21-700s to record the other MPEG-4 stuff and that gives me about 2.5 TB of space per each Home Entertainment System.


----------



## Doug Brott

richierich said:


> I wonder if the New TIVO will support OTA???
> 
> If so I will swap out my HR10-250s for the new one in a Heartbeat!!!
> 
> I still love having my HR10-250s because I get ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc, via OTA with very little rainfade if any and 90% of my recording is from those stations so I can record those events from those channels and then use my HR21-700s to record the other MPEG-4 stuff and that gives me about 2.5 TB of space per each Home Entertainment System.


If you're already happy with the HR10-250, you may not even need to swap out. It wouldn't surprise me at all if TiVo support OTA using the same AM21 hardware that DIRECTV now uses.


----------



## djlong

My Dishplayer 7200 must feel like it's under seige. Either the HDPC20 or the forthcoming DirecTivo will be replacing it.


----------



## mgp777

As an owner of both I am thrilled Tivo is back in the mix. I find it unbelievable that my HR20-100 can't properly sync audio and video.


----------



## mp11

Doug Brott said:


> It wouldn't surprise me at all if TiVo support OTA using the same AM21 hardware that DIRECTV now uses.


OMG dont even think it! Only thing worse than the HR21 is the AM21 What a backwards way of doing things. Sheesh!


----------



## Lee L

djlong said:


> My Dishplayer 7200 must feel like it's under seige. Either the HDPC20 or the forthcoming DirecTivo will be replacing it.


What, do you have the last 7200 still running? THat thing was cool though. Most people freaked out if they were over and I puased or skipped back in 1999 or 2000. I honestly can;t remember when I got it but it was right after the 7200 came out and they activated the PVR features on the 7100. For a while, it made the HR20 look like the most stable machine ever made, but once they finally got the software working (actually it was one guy IIRC, Matt something at the WebTV group), it was a nice piece of machinery. Just slap a new drive in and it would download the software and reformat automatically. How big of a drive do you have in there?


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

wesmills said:


> That seems to be a recurring theme.
> 
> Why does it have to be "all about the money?" If cost is truly the bottom-line option, then why hasn't everyone jumped ship to Dish Network or basic cable? Generally, DirecTV is more expensive than the other options, yet they seem to be doing well for themselves, even to Dish's detriment. Cost is not the final arbiter, nor should it be (look where it got us with air travel).
> 
> If the TiVo service is superior, marketed well and gets good word of mouth (note that those last two are almost out of TiVo's hands), I believe it will take off, especially considering that a lot of people who have had issues with the HR2x series are generally the "tech geek" for their family or friends and are in a position to recommend this new unit to those people.


It's not just about _HOW MUCH_ money... but how much value I get for my money.

Why have people remained with DirecTV over other options? Because the value for the money is greater than the others. Cable around here just plain blows. DISH hasn't had the channels that I "need". So my 'bang for the buck' was with DirecTV.

Why is money THE factor when it comes to the new Tivo box?... Easy - my HR2x's perform the way they should, without fail (knock on wood). So, when the new Tivo comes out, I have to decide if the premium being charged brings me anything extra, and if the extra is worth the money.

Obviously, there are those who haven't had the same experience as I have. For them, money may not be the final determining factor. But I've long contended that the people with major problems are far outnumbered by those of us who have no problems. Clearly, I don't have numbers to back that up, just my general feeling after spending two years with this product and immersed in this forum... If my feeling is right, the mass exodus that's been predicted is probably NOT going to happen, simply because for us, it comes down to the dollars and cents of switching platforms.


----------



## Phil21

I think sharkie has to be right.. Anything else wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, even though it is somewhat hard for me to believe. There must be more users of the HR2x platform who have no issues, than those that have severe problems.

But man, the evidence I have is almost completely the opposite. Since I work in a technical field, almost everyone I know is an "early adopter" of some form - and almost everyone runs DirecTV.

Every single person I know that has a HR2x unit, has had the blank/black screen recording issue. This is about a dozen folks, with hugely varying installations varying from self-installed, installer-done, no multiswitch, cascading multiswitches, MDU's, etc. Out of all of these varying users, they have ALL reported at least one occurrence of the blank recording thing. This is ignoring all the other "pesky" annoyances, which happen on any DVR platform but do add up.

2 of these highly technical folks have simply dumped directv directly due to the HR2x platform. These are the types that don't care so much about the technical end, just the final product. If it works, they'd be right back - but if not, goodbye and have fun wasting your time.

I think the most frustrating thing is DirecTV *refuses* to acknowledge there is an issue, and that they are aware of it. Simply doing this, would largely placate me to a huge degree. When I have a decent sample size from people with hugely varying installation setups and market locations with the same problem, do NOT insult my intelligence and tell me 'we've never heard of this before! you are the only one!" when a simple internet search shows it being well-documented and well-reported.

That is why the Tivo announcement, in my opinion, is so huge. For these users that have been having problems, it's a light at the end of the tunnel. They simply have lost faith after over a year of DirecTV telling them there is no problem - they do not believe a fix will ever come to be, and DirecTV simply doesn't care. Them "going back" to Tivo is somewhat of a vindication for them - "see I told you so!" sort of thing.

I'm actually no Tivo fanboy. I hated the slowness of the Tivo platform, which was inexcusable. And they certainly had other issues. However, they got the basics correct - and Tivo was my first love.

As others have said, I think the release date of this new Tivo box will be the make it or break it time for many of us. If they fix the HR2x issues for us by then? Great! I'll likely stick with it. If they don't, and the Tivo units turn out to be reliable? Great! I'll switch to Tivo. If neither holds true, DirecTV stops being the best value for the money and we'll reluctantly move elsewhere.

That is, at least, how I stand.

-Phil


----------



## mp11

richierich said:


> I wonder if the New TIVO will support OTA???
> 
> 
> 
> It's the only way I'll be on board. No OTA tuner(I'd be amazed if it didnt)...no deal for me.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ken S

Phil21 said:


> I think sharkie has to be right.. Anything else wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, even though it is somewhat hard for me to believe. There must be more users of the HR2x platform who have no issues, than those that have severe problems.
> 
> But man, the evidence I have is almost completely the opposite. Since I work in a technical field, almost everyone I know is an "early adopter" of some form - and almost everyone runs DirecTV.
> 
> Every single person I know that has a HR2x unit, has had the blank/black screen recording issue. This is about a dozen folks, with hugely varying installations varying from self-installed, installer-done, no multiswitch, cascading multiswitches, MDU's, etc. Out of all of these varying users, they have ALL reported at least one occurrence of the blank recording thing. This is ignoring all the other "pesky" annoyances, which happen on any DVR platform but do add up.
> 
> 2 of these highly technical folks have simply dumped directv directly due to the HR2x platform. These are the types that don't care so much about the technical end, just the final product. If it works, they'd be right back - but if not, goodbye and have fun wasting your time.
> 
> I think the most frustrating thing is DirecTV *refuses* to acknowledge there is an issue, and that they are aware of it. Simply doing this, would largely placate me to a huge degree. When I have a decent sample size from people with hugely varying installation setups and market locations with the same problem, do NOT insult my intelligence and tell me 'we've never heard of this before! you are the only one!" when a simple internet search shows it being well-documented and well-reported.
> 
> That is why the Tivo announcement, in my opinion, is so huge. For these users that have been having problems, it's a light at the end of the tunnel. They simply have lost faith after over a year of DirecTV telling them there is no problem - they do not believe a fix will ever come to be, and DirecTV simply doesn't care. Them "going back" to Tivo is somewhat of a vindication for them - "see I told you so!" sort of thing.
> 
> I'm actually no Tivo fanboy. I hated the slowness of the Tivo platform, which was inexcusable. And they certainly had other issues. However, they got the basics correct - and Tivo was my first love.
> 
> As others have said, I think the release date of this new Tivo box will be the make it or break it time for many of us. If they fix the HR2x issues for us by then? Great! I'll likely stick with it. If they don't, and the Tivo units turn out to be reliable? Great! I'll switch to Tivo. If neither holds true, DirecTV stops being the best value for the money and we'll reluctantly move elsewhere.
> 
> That is, at least, how I stand.
> 
> -Phil


I know the mods disagree with me on this, but I think the Tivo release or thereabouts is make it or break it for the HR2x dev project. If the HR2x is still problematic and Tivo actually delivers a quality product (no sure thing by any means) than my guess is the HR2x software development stops and goes into maintenance mode at best.
It would be interesting to see if DirecTV/Liberty has an option piece to the agreement and how big a piece of Tivo they may be able to purchase if so.


----------



## raott

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Why is money THE factor when it comes to the new Tivo box?... Easy - my HR2x's perform the way they should, without fail (knock on wood). So, when the new Tivo comes out, I have to decide if the premium being charged brings me anything extra, and if the extra is worth the money.
> 
> Obviously, there are those who haven't had the same experience as I have. For them, money may not be the final determining factor. But I've long contended that the people with major problems are far outnumbered by those of us who have no problems. Clearly, I don't have numbers to back that up, just my general feeling after spending two years with this product and immersed in this forum... If my feeling is right, the mass exodus that's been predicted is probably NOT going to happen, simply because for us, it comes down to the dollars and cents of switching platforms.


You are making two, IMO, incorrect assumptions. First, you are assuming there will be some sort of a premium for Tivo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen nothing that indicates there will be a premium.

Second, you are assuming that there will even be an option or choice of either the HR2x or Tivo. I don't believe there will be. I believe the announcement is a signal that the HR2x will eventually be discontinued and that new subscribers will have only one choice - Tivo. The exodus will come through churn and new subscribers.

The HR2x diehards disagree with that, I'm sure, but D* is not going to have multiple active HD DVR platforms being sold at the same time, its too expensive, too confusing and too difficult to support.


----------



## mp11

Phil21 said:


> But man, the evidence I have is almost completely the opposite. Since I work in a technical field, almost everyone I know is an "early adopter" of some form - and almost everyone runs DirecTV.
> 
> Every single person I know that has a HR2x unit, has had the blank/black screen recording issue. This is about a dozen folks, with hugely varying installations varying from self-installed, installer-done, no multiswitch, cascading multiswitches, MDU's, etc. Out of all of these varying users, they have ALL reported at least one occurrence of the blank recording thing. This is ignoring all the other "pesky" annoyances, which happen on any DVR platform but do add up.
> 
> 2 of these highly technical folks have simply dumped directv directly due to the HR2x platform. These are the types that don't care so much about the technical end, just the final product. If it works, they'd be right back - but if not, goodbye and have fun wasting your time.
> 
> I think the most frustrating thing is DirecTV *refuses* to acknowledge there is an issue, and that they are aware of it. Simply doing this, would largely placate me to a huge degree. When I have a decent sample size from people with hugely varying installation setups and market locations with the same problem, do NOT insult my intelligence and tell me 'we've never heard of this before! you are the only one!" when a simple internet search shows it being well-documented and well-reported.
> 
> That is why the Tivo announcement, in my opinion, is so huge. For these users that have been having problems, it's a light at the end of the tunnel. They simply have lost faith after over a year of DirecTV telling them there is no problem - they do not believe a fix will ever come to be, and DirecTV simply doesn't care. Them "going back" to Tivo is somewhat of a vindication for them - "see I told you so!" sort of thing.
> 
> I'm actually no Tivo fanboy. I hated the slowness of the Tivo platform, which was inexcusable. And they certainly had other issues. However, they got the basics correct - and Tivo was my first love.
> 
> As others have said, I think the release date of this new Tivo box will be the make it or break it time for many of us. If they fix the HR2x issues for us by then? Great! I'll likely stick with it. If they don't, and the Tivo units turn out to be reliable? Great! I'll switch to Tivo. If neither holds true, DirecTV stops being the best value for the money and we'll reluctantly move elsewhere.
> 
> That is, at least, how I stand.
> 
> -Phil


Well said. And those are my sentiments exactly. I may be wrong about this but this is how I see it. Its been stated more than once that basically...Tivo *NEEDS* Directv to survive. Although that may be overstated, Tivo will definately benefit from this. However, there is no way I'll ever believe Directv is extending a "friendly hand" to Tivo out of the goodness of thier hearts. It's my belief that Directv is in it for a reason. And that reason is thier HR2* series debacle. I would be curious to see the churn rate since they turned out the HR series. Ofcourse that may not be know til the 2 year contracts are over. As I mentioned on an earlier post, another year on my contract and Directv was history for me. Personally my wish would be to have a full blown Series 3 w/ satellite tuner instead of a half-breed Tivo. But who knows, if Directv gives Tivo enough leeway, I may be very satisfied.


----------



## wingrider01

Ken S said:


> I know the mods disagree with me on this, but I think the Tivo release or thereabouts is make it or break it for the HR2x dev project. If the HR2x is still problematic and Tivo actually delivers a quality product (no sure thing by any means) than my guess is the HR2x software development stops and goes into maintenance mode at best.
> It would be interesting to see if DirecTV/Liberty has an option piece to the agreement and how big a piece of Tivo they may be able to purchase if so.


So what you are claiming is that the press release that was put out by Directv is nothing but a smoke screen for going back to a single TIVO unit? Wouild love to see the validation for that theory


----------



## GregNico

Old Replay TV user here (Direct TV owns their rights or at least some of them) 
after reading the thread I finally have to put in my wish since this TIVO thing will be changing operation of DVR's in the future 
-- My install includes both HD satellites systems--
Direct TV (down to 4 HD DVR-HR-20's) had 9 DVR's sent 5 SD DVR's back when I added 
DishTV (HD only ultimate package) with HD DVR 722 & a 222 these both give me PIP and can share with all my TV via the coax system wired in the house to go all my TV's including the replays and the screen on the treadmill (for free)
--Anyways -- what I miss most about Replay TV is the skip to (xx) to any part of the recording instantly
like a 3 hr football game I could skip to the 45 min mark 1:37 min or any time (xx) entered after the skip button
even better yet would be to include the commercial skip (automatically gets you to the next part of the program no matter how long the break was)


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

raott said:


> You are making two, IMO, incorrect assumptions. First, you are assuming there will be some sort of a premium for Tivo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen nothing that indicates there will be a premium.
> 
> Second, you are assuming that there will even be an option or choice of either the HR2x or Tivo. I don't believe there will be. I believe the announcement is a signal that the HR2x will eventually be discontinued and that new subscribers will have only one choice - Tivo. The exodus will come through churn and new subscribers.
> 
> The HR2x diehards disagree with that, I'm sure, but D* is not going to have multiple active HD DVR platforms being sold at the same time, its too expensive, too confusing and too difficult to support.





> DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.


You're going to be able to "add" Tivo. They're not going to do it for free. It's not spelled out, but it's not a huge leap to assume that there will be a fee. DirecTV is out to make money, and if they can charge you more, they will.

The press release also stated that specific consumer pricing and packages would be announced with the launch of the product. Again seeming to suggest something "special" to go with the Tivos.



raott said:


> Second, you are assuming that there will even be an option or choice of either the HR2x or Tivo. I don't believe there will be. I believe the announcement is a signal that the HR2x will eventually be discontinued and that new subscribers will have only one choice - Tivo. The exodus will come through churn and new subscribers.


Everything we KNOW today suggest that the option will exist, and the press release would suggest that there will be a premium for the option.

I can't say that it WON'T happen... but what little we know about the project suggests a comcast like solution, where the TIVO option is an addon to the existing receivers.

Even if you're right that the HR2x is going to be replaced by TIVO, it won't be on day 1 of the Tivo release. For at least some period of time there will be an option... and I'm betting that the Tivo option is going to cost more. How much more, and in what way (upfront or month to month) remains to be seen....


----------



## generalpatton78

mp11 said:


> Well said. And those are my sentiments exactly. I may be wrong about this but this is how I see it. Its been stated more than once that basically...Tivo *NEEDS* Directv to survive. Although that may be overstated, Tivo will definately benefit from this. However, there is no way I'll ever believe Directv is extending a "friendly hand" to Tivo out of the goodness of thier hearts. It's my belief that Directv is in it for a reason. And that reason is thier HR2* series debacle. I would be curious to see the churn rate since they turned out the HR series. Ofcourse that may not be know til the 2 year contracts are over. As I mentioned on an earlier post, another year on my contract and Directv was history for me. Personally my wish would be to have a full blown Series 3 w/ satellite tuner instead of a half-breed Tivo. But who knows, if Directv gives Tivo enough leeway, I may be very satisfied.


Guys lets not go crazy here. First D* churn numbers have been VERY VERY low the last few reports. I think a big thing we are missing is I feel this happened as a direct result of Murdoch selling to Malone. I think this decision came from the very top (Malone) this time and that's why none of the normal Directv sources knew about it. I also don't think the DVR+ model line is going anywhere. Directv wants to be viewed as the BEST in the industry and recruit high quality subscribers. So far it seems this strategy has worked out well for them. This move to add tivo again as a premium service alternative is simply another piece in that strategy. As some have noticed we Tivo fans are very dedicated.


----------



## Doug Brott

Ken S said:


> I know the mods disagree with me on this, but I think the Tivo release or thereabouts is make it or break it for the HR2x dev project. If the HR2x is still problematic and Tivo actually delivers a quality product (no sure thing by any means) than my guess is the HR2x software development stops and goes into maintenance mode at best.
> It would be interesting to see if DirecTV/Liberty has an option piece to the agreement and how big a piece of Tivo they may be able to purchase if so.


I do disagree because what you suggest doesn't go along with the information that I have from speaking with a number of different people ..


----------



## Doug Brott

raott said:


> The HR2x diehards disagree with that, I'm sure, but D* is not going to have multiple active HD DVR platforms being sold at the same time, its too expensive, too confusing and too difficult to support.


From my understanding, the hardware will pretty much be the same thing ..


----------



## Doug Brott

generalpatton78 said:


> Guys lets not go crazy here. First D* churn numbers have been VERY VERY low the last few reports. I think a big thing we are missing is I feel this happened as a direct result of Murdoch selling to Malone. I think this decision came from the very top (Malone) this time and that's why none of the normal Directv sources knew about it. I also don't think the DVR+ model line is going anywhere. Directv wants to be viewed as the BEST in the industry and recruit high quality subscribers. So far it seems this strategy has worked out well for them. This move to add tivo again as a premium service alternative is simply another piece in that strategy. As some have noticed we Tivo fans are very dedicated.


I don't know this to be true, but it's as good a theory as any ..


----------



## HarryD

It's about time....


----------



## t_h

Doug Brott said:


> I do disagree because what you suggest doesn't go along with the information that I have from speaking with a number of different people ..


Having been a senior manager in a very large company, if I were considering such a decision, I'd make sure all the folks you'd be likely to talk to were told that their jobs were safe and nothing would change for them anytime soon.

It'd be pretty stupid to do otherwise. You'd have a mass exodus, "who cares, we're going to be replaced" performance from the people who dont leave and no product for over a year.

Whatever Directv has planned or is thinking at the macro level, its very unlikely to have been communicated as anything other than "staying the course, adding an option" to everyone south of the executive team and their direct reports.

Having said all that, its obvious that Directv felt they had a problem that needed to be solved or an opportunity to improve revenues by making a change in strategy. We can guess all day at what that is, but it'd just be a guess and rank and file employee/manager comments wouldnt change that.

I dont see a huge revenue advantage to a tivo option. People wont buy more PPV's or more premium channels or more sports packages if they have a tivo. What it does is keep subscribers who want tivo, gains back lost subscribers who left because of the loss of the tivo option, and brings on subscribers who would have gone to another option if tivo was unavailable.

On the tivo side...anyone who hasnt realized that tivo wants to be "the thing", with content provided directly to the box over the internet and get rid of the cable/satellite guys hasnt been paying attention. That option just hasnt developed in price and availability as quickly as they'd like, so they've had to keep smiling and nodding to the cable and satellite companies.

You can trust that if people could order a season of a show for $2, any sporting event for $8-10 and any movie for $2-3, all deliverable over an internet connection...that tivo would bundle that up and bypass all of these guys as fast as they humanly could.

As far as what Directv will do? Offer both, let the users choose, if one of the options is hard and expensive to support and advance and the other isnt, and customers go to the cheaper and easier one, they'll phase out the one that 'loses'. As the posts I've read above suggest, some people might still be watching those 'loser' boxes 8 years from now, so not really much of a need to get too excited.

So far I see millions of directv subscribers who wont give up their tivo, dont like having had to give up their tivo, or who left directv to continue on with tivo. I'm not sure you'd get millions of people who would say that they'd give up directv if the HR option was going to be phased out in favor of a current tivo implementation.


----------



## Sixto

t_h said:


> Having been a senior manager in a very large company, if I were considering such a decision, I'd make sure all the folks you'd be likely to talk to were told that their jobs were safe and nothing would change for them anytime soon ...


Very true. Been near very similar situations.

You just don't know and the folks involved honestly, candidly may not know yet.

It was 100.000% no-TiVo. Now there's TiVo. That changed. Anything can change.

Anything is possible, but it will depend on product robustness, product acceptance, and a thorough financial analysis after maturity and acceptance.


----------



## nc88keyz

Doug Brott said:


> If you're already happy with the HR10-250, you may not even need to swap out. It wouldn't surprise me at all if TiVo support OTA using the same AM21 hardware that DIRECTV now uses.


This will look fantastic on top of the HR21,22,23 boxes.

Makes perfect sense using the AM21s since are HR2x series will be all powered by Tivo in the end *wink* *wink*


----------



## carl6

t_h said:


> So far I see millions of directv subscribers who wont give up their tivo, dont like having had to give up their tivo, or who left directv to continue on with tivo. I'm not sure you'd get millions of people who would say that they'd give up directv if the HR option was going to be phased out in favor of a current tivo implementation.


I would suspect your first number might be in the thousands or tens of thousands, certainly not millions (who won't give up their tivo).

And I most certainly would be extremelly dissapointed if the HR option were phased out in favor of a current tivo implementation. I've owned and used tivo, and I overwhelmingly prefer the HR2x series. I could leave DirecTV over being forced back into Tivo, really.

Carl


----------



## loudo

t_h said:


> So far I see millions of directv subscribers who wont give up their tivo, dont like having had to give up their tivo, or who left directv to continue on with tivo. I'm not sure you'd get millions of people who would say that they'd give up directv if the HR option was going to be phased out in favor of a current tivo implementation.


Most DirecTV customers, and I don't mean ones who are in this forum, don't even have a clue if they are using a TIVO device or not. All they know is the fact that when they want to record a program they hit the record button on their DirecTV remote to record their programs in their DirecTV DVR.

There are the die hard TIVO lovers that only want TIVO, but many of us really don't care if it is a DirecTV/TIVO device or a 100% DirecTV device, as long as it gives us all of the features we want. There were features in my TIVO HR10-250 that I liked (double buffer for one) and there was those that I hated (Guide Menu for one). The same goes for the features of my HR20.


----------



## t_h

Perhaps I have the wrong information, but I had read in some of the analyst briefs that there were still approximately 3M directv subscribers who still had a directv with tivo based product and would not upgrade to a non tivo directv HD offering.

Along with approximately 1.5M subscribers who had already abandoned directv or stated that they planned to do so shortly due to the lack of a tivo option.

Those are pretty big numbers. Which makes sense. Directv obviously wouldnt have fired this salvo if they didnt really need to. Big support costs, customer confusion at point of entry and on signing up a new subscriber, no big revenue opportunity. If the vast majority of customers dont care if its a tivo and are no more inclined to sign up or upgrade without it, you simply dont do it.

You do something like this to obtain, retain and upgrade customers. You dont do something like this for tens of thousands of prospects. You do it for millions. Many millions.


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> I do disagree because what you suggest doesn't go along with the information that I have from speaking with a number of different people ..


And unless you can post that information here it doesn't do this thread any service at all, it's all hearsay.
Not to throw bones, but someones once said that Tivo and D* wouldn't happen again. Ever. That info was wrong too.

Information from D* on this will all likely come after the fact, as anything else before the release will be too top secret or just more subterfuge anyway.

I'll believe it when I see it. Whatever IT is.

Frank


----------



## Brennok

loudo said:


> Most DirecTV customers, and I don't mean ones who are in this forum, don't even have a clue if they are using a TIVO device or not. All they know is the fact that when they want to record a program they hit the record button on their DirecTV remote to record their programs in their DirecTV DVR.
> 
> There are the die hard TIVO lovers that only want TIVO, but many of us really don't care if it is a DirecTV/TIVO device or a 100% DirecTV device, as long as it gives us all of the features we want. There were features in my TIVO HR10-250 that I liked (double buffer for one) and there was those that I hated (Guide Menu for one). The same goes for the features of my HR20.


I would agree with you but also mention that I think the two different boxes are targeted at completely different viewing styles. For example you complain about the Guide Menu on the Tivo. Personally I can't remember the last time I ever used the guide menu and for a very big reason. With Tivo I rarely if ever watch live tv. Really the only time I ever use it is if I am just browsing the movie stations for background noise while I do something else.

To me Tivo was designed to record your shows so you never have to even watch live tv while the HRX seem to be designed around improving your live tv experience. With my Tivo the first thing I do when I turn on the tv is check my Now Playing List. I don't even check what is on TV currently because I know I already set recordings for anything I might want to watch.

Obviously you have people that do both on both machines, but I would say the majority of those who like the HR over the Tivo are people who prefer watching live tv including people who record games and such so they can jump in 15-30 mins after the start of the program. I would say Tivo people record the shows they like so they can watch what they want when they want and forget about live TV.


----------



## Flyrx7

Brennok said:


> To me Tivo was designed to record your shows so you never have to even watch live tv while the HRX seem to be designed around improving your live tv experience.


In my opinion you are 180 degrees out. If what you say were the case then the HR2* units would have DLB and not the other way around.
DLB is an obvious live TV enhancement, not a recorded TV enhancement.

Just my opinion however.

Right now, without any concrete evidence either way, this whole debate is bacically one group of fanboys against another group of fanboys.
I really wonder if this discussion can carry itself for an entire year until something actually comes out. Until then it's just more speculation without any substance. 
Again, just my opinion.


----------



## Brennok

Flyrx7 said:


> In my opinion you are 180 degrees out. If what you say were the case then the HR2* units would have DLB and not the other way around.
> DLB is an obvious live TV enhancement, not a recorded TV enhancement.
> 
> Just my opinion however.
> 
> Right now, without any concrete evidence either way, this whole debate is bacically one group of fanboys against another group of fanboys.
> I really wonder if this discussion can carry itself for an entire year until something actually comes out. Until then it's just more speculation without any substance.
> Again, just my opinion.


Sorry I always forget about the DLB which techinically should be on every DVR for the reason you state. I think for the most part that is it unless you can think of another feature I am missing since I will admit my use of any of DTv's DVRs is slim these days. The one thing that sticks out in my mind is Tivo's menu system is setup to avoid seeing what you are recording while DTV's isn't as far as I remember.

Having a 50 series link tells me they don't expect people to want to record that many shows. 50 shows doesn't even cover primetime for my house, then again 50 shows doesn't cover my parents individually either.

Just my opinion, but I wholeheartedly agree it is all speculation in the end.


----------



## mitchelljd

im looking forward towards tivo coming back to directv. im watching in my bedroom right now on my tivo dtv sdtv sony box. 

my biggest reasons for liking it, 
1- you can setup more season passes than the hr2x series. 
2- you can transfer content between different boxes in the same house
3- you can backup to computer, and burn to disc things you want to keep that way, even on a mac. 

there are lots of reasons to love tivo, lets hope directv doesn't disable it like they did the earlier ones.


----------



## wingrider01

HarryD said:


> It's about time....


It's About Space
It's about 2 men of the human race......


----------



## paulman182

Phil21 said:


> Every single person I know that has a HR2x unit, has had the blank/black screen recording issue. This is about a dozen folks, with hugely varying installations varying from self-installed, installer-done, no multiswitch, cascading multiswitches, MDU's, etc. Out of all of these varying users, they have ALL reported at least one occurrence of the blank recording thing.


Well, I have to admit, I have had ONE blank screen recording among the hundreds of recordings spread over two HR20s over the last two years.

If ONE such recording is a reason to cheer the Tivo announcement, then I guess I should be cheering, but I really don't see it that way.

I'm glad for the renewed partnership and may end up owning a new DirecTV TiVo myself, but I don't see a NEED for one at my house.


----------



## loudo

mitchelljd said:


> im looking forward towards tivo coming back to directv. im watching in my bedroom right now on my tivo dtv sdtv sony box.
> 
> my biggest reasons for liking it,
> 1- you can setup more season passes than the hr2x series.
> 2- you can transfer content between different boxes in the same house
> 3- you can backup to computer, and burn to disc things you want to keep that way, even on a mac.
> 
> there are lots of reasons to love tivo, lets hope directv doesn't disable it like they did the earlier ones.


Yes, the main thing we must all remember, the new DirecTV/TIVO boxes may or may not have the same features as the stand alone TIVO boxes or the older HR10-250 DVRs. Until they announce the boxes and their features we are all just assuming what they will or won't have.


----------



## JayB

loudo said:


> Yes, the main thing we must all remember, the new DirecTV/TIVO boxes may or may not have the same features as the stand alone TIVO boxes or the older HR10-250 DVRs. Until they announce the boxes and their features we are all just assuming what they will or won't have.


Yup, that's true, but if I get more season passes and I get multi-room, I'm in.


----------



## Sixto

Be interesting to watch a recording without a slingbox ...
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080911/nyth049.html?.v=101​If it's supported on DirecTV.

Nice future ahead ... lots of questions ...


----------



## loudo

Sixto said:


> Be interesting to watch a recording without a slingbox ...http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080911/nyth049.html?.v=101​If it's supported on DirecTV.
> 
> Nice future ahead ... lots of questions ...


I love my Sling Box, when I am on the road, but being able to do the same thing direct from the receiver, would be great.


----------



## Ken S

wingrider01 said:


> So what you are claiming is that the press release that was put out by Directv is nothing but a smoke screen for going back to a single TIVO unit? Wouild love to see the validation for that theory


Yes and no.

1. They are at least a year away from a new DVR. Can't turn off the HR2x stuff right now.

2. There is no guarantee that Tivo will deliver on time...or at all. They have a long history of late releases. Certainly can't shut down development until its done.

3. They have a development team in place. Making an announcement that they're switching over in a year means the only work done in that team will be on resumes.

4. If the Tivo unit is released and does work there's a decent shot that Liberty/DirecTV might just buy the whole company. If you bail on your own development before then you give the other side greater leverage/bargaining powder.

I guess time will tell...but if I were in the HR2x dev team I'd be looking. Because no matter how you twist this...the announcement certainly wasn't a vote of confidence.

Am I certain of this happening? No...but having watched DirecTV for several years as an investor and customer I really doubt they're going to support two systems and in reality two dev teams.


----------



## Ken S

Doug Brott said:


> I do disagree because what you suggest doesn't go along with the information that I have from speaking with a number of different people ..


Doug,

I understand that. I would be shocked if they were telling you anything different. However, that decision may not have been communicated or even made yet...that doesn't mean it won't be.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Ken S said:


> Doug,
> 
> I understand that. I would be shocked if they were telling you anything different. However, that decision may not have been communicated or *even made yet*...that doesn't mean it won't be.


I think you hit the nail on the head right there. I don't think even DirecTV would make the decision to abandon the HR2x series without knowing what they have with the Tivo box.

In 12 or 18 months, or whenever the TIVO comes out.... *IF* it performs well, *AND*, if someone with some decision making power at DirecTV is unhappy with the state of the HR2x at that point.... then maybe things change _again_.

But I don't think that's a decision that can be made today, given that the Tivo doesn't even exist.


----------



## wingrider01

Ken S said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> 1. They are at least a year away from a new DVR. Can't turn off the HR2x stuff right now.
> 
> 2. There is no guarantee that Tivo will deliver on time...or at all. They have a long history of late releases. Certainly can't shut down development until its done.
> 
> 3. They have a development team in place. Making an announcement that they're switching over in a year means the only work done in that team will be on resumes.
> 
> 4. If the Tivo unit is released and does work there's a decent shot that Liberty/DirecTV might just buy the whole company. If you bail on your own development before then you give the other side greater leverage/bargaining powder.
> 
> I guess time will tell...but if I were in the HR2x dev team I'd be looking. Because no matter how you twist this...the announcement certainly wasn't a vote of confidence.
> 
> Am I certain of this happening? No...but having watched DirecTV for several years as an investor and customer I really doubt they're going to support two systems and in reality two dev teams.


All speculation - personally would prefer a full interface to HDPC boxes and get rid of both flavors of DVR's.

Personally I lean towards the idea of them keeping the HR2x's series for a normal pricing structure and letting the end user add the new TIVO based box for additional costs up front and surcharges for the monthly reoccurring. lot better ROI and recoup of whatever costs are incurred for striking the deal


----------



## djlong

Lee L said:


> What, do you have the last 7200 still running? THat thing was cool though. Most people freaked out if they were over and I puased or skipped back in 1999 or 2000. I honestly can;t remember when I got it but it was right after the 7200 came out and they activated the PVR features on the 7100. For a while, it made the HR20 look like the most stable machine ever made, but once they finally got the software working (actually it was one guy IIRC, Matt something at the WebTV group), it was a nice piece of machinery. Just slap a new drive in and it would download the software and reformat automatically. How big of a drive do you have in there?


I put a 160GB drive in even though it would only recognize the first 137GB or so. This is my 2nd 7200 - the first one being knocked out by lightning a few years ago. nice simple interface but not having 2 tuners has had me envious of others for a while.


----------



## Ken S

wingrider01 said:


> All speculation - personally would prefer a full interface to HDPC boxes and get rid of both flavors of DVR's.
> 
> Personally I lean towards the idea of them keeping the HR2x's series for a normal pricing structure and letting the end user add the new TIVO based box for additional costs up front and surcharges for the monthly reoccurring. lot better ROI and recoup of whatever costs are incurred for striking the deal


Except that to sell enough to cover those costs would mean the HR2X line wasn't necessary anyway.

When you say it's all speculation...what were you expecting? I'd pull out secret memos from Chase Carey to Tom Robertson detailing the whole plan? Of course, it's speculation. It was all speculation before this happened. Some speculated it would never happen (even some at DirecTV)...others said it might/would happen. That's part of what a forum like this is about.


----------



## groove93

I will bet you that the Tivo interface will not be as handicapped as some are speculating. If E* can incorporate features such as Slingbox and Sling Catcher features into their DVRs, then I don't see why D* would not want to incorporate similar features in their new platform.

I am fully confident that D* and Tivo will make a platform with Tivo's latest/current features that the current HRxx platform has yet to implement.

I will also bet that this new DVR will be expensive, however I would not be surprised if people would come out to buy them, primarily current and former D*Tivo users, just for the interface and its reputation as a reliable platform.


----------



## bonscott87

t_h said:


> Perhaps I have the wrong information, but I had read in some of the analyst briefs that there were still approximately 3M directv subscribers who still had a directv with tivo based product and would not upgrade to a non tivo directv HD offering.
> 
> Along with approximately 1.5M subscribers who had already abandoned directv or stated that they planned to do so shortly due to the lack of a tivo option.


Have no idea where you are getting your numbers.

First off, there are (according to Tivo as of July 31st, 2nd quarter earnings call) there were less then 1.9 million DirecTivo subscriptions left and dropping by nearly 200K (and increasing) a quarter. Assuming those number hold there may be only around 1 million DirecTivo subs by the time this new HD DirecTivo box makes the market and that assumes end of 2009. And in that 1.9 million Tivo also counts all their Comcast Tivo subs as they don't separate out DirecTV any more. So it's probably more like 1.8 or 1.7 million I'd guess.

And guess what, most of us on this very forum count in that number. Heck, I have an HR20 and an HR21 but I still have an old SD DirecTivo on the account. Thus I count in that 1.9 million.

And I have no idea where you get the idea that these subs "refuse" to get the HD DirecTV DVR. Nearly 200K a quarter get deactivated but that doesn't mean they are leaving. Yet DirecTV's churn numbers are at historic lows and they keep on growing. So the leap you make in that statement doesn't really jive with the bottom line.

And now nearly half of all DirecTV subs (8 million) either have HD and/or DVR. So you can speculate that most people get a DVR and on the low side you can say at least 5-6 million of DirecTV 18 million have the DirecTV DVR, under 1.9 have a DirecTivo and many of those subs cross so the DirecTV DVR numbers are probably higher. R15's have been off commitment going on 2 years now. And the first HR20 subs have been coming off commitment for a couple months now. Yet churn is down, sub growth up.

What it all means to this thread I don't know but there are the numbers.

So to me DirecTV doesn't need Tivo at all, they could have kept going their own way. The only reason they do anything is for *money*. This deal most likely is more to keep access to the Tivo patents and keep from being sued in the meantime. And I guess why not let Tivo put out a new Tivo box so long as it doesn't cost DirecTV anything in the end. Maybe they'll make a bit of money to boot.


----------



## Doug Brott

Ken S said:


> Doug,
> 
> I understand that. I would be shocked if they were telling you anything different. However, that decision may not have been communicated or even made yet...that doesn't mean it won't be.












_Sorry Ken, couldn't resist _


----------



## gregjones

Ken S said:


> Except that to sell enough to cover those costs would mean the HR2X line wasn't necessary anyway.
> 
> When you say it's all speculation...what were you expecting? I'd pull out secret memos from Chase Carey to Tom Robertson detailing the whole plan? Of course, it's speculation. It was all speculation before this happened. Some speculated it would never happen (even some at DirecTV)...others said it might/would happen. That's part of what a forum like this is about.


Yes, but the speculation isn't particularly obvious. Has Comcast killed all other DVRs now that they have a Tivo option? Because if it is so obvious that no company would support two, they should have by now.

It is just as likely to think that DirecTV got a good deal from Tivo to get a vocal minority of users off their back. If they got the chance to have a press release announcing a Tivo box at some point in the future without much cost to them, what is the harm? Let's see, it doesn't interfere with the status quo and it calms down a group of current customers.

DirecTV already had a single third-party vendor for DVRs at one point. They abandoned it. While a return to a Tivo-only world is possible, at this point it is not at all likely. Even if it happens, it will be a number of years down the road.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> _Sorry Ken, couldn't resist _


Are your sources the same ones that said there was not going to be a HD DirectTivo?  I'm sure they're telling you the truth as they currently understand it to be. Maybe corporate has other plans they aren't disclosing to the troops. Not sure why Ken's supposition is considered so outrageous...not saying it's true, but certainly not worthy of ridicule.


----------



## Doug Brott

RCY said:


> Are your sources the same ones that said there was not going to be a HD DirectTivo?  I'm sure they're telling you the truth as they currently understand it to be. Maybe corporate has other plans they aren't disclosing to the troops. Not sure why Ken's supposition is considered so outrageous...not saying it's true, but certainly not worthy of ridicule.


I'm sure Ken's cool with it  .. Clearly the two of us disagree on this matter ..


----------



## carl6

mitchelljd said:


> im looking forward towards tivo coming back to directv. im watching in my bedroom right now on my tivo dtv sdtv sony box.
> 
> my biggest reasons for liking it,
> 1- you can setup more season passes than the hr2x series.
> 2- you can transfer content between different boxes in the same house
> 3- you can backup to computer, and burn to disc things you want to keep that way, even on a mac.
> 
> there are lots of reasons to love tivo, lets hope directv doesn't disable it like they did the earlier ones.


We have absolutely no idea what the new DirecTivo unit might or might not offer. Of the three you list, my guess would be:

1. Probable.
2. HR series will have MRV long before the new box shows up. Actual transfering of content (moving files) won't happen.
3. Not going to happen due to copy protection and industry requirements.

Carl


----------



## Ken S

Doug Brott said:


> _Sorry Ken, couldn't resist _


Let me guess...someone at DirecTV leaked you their new design for install trucks?


----------



## Ken S

gregjones said:


> Yes, but the speculation isn't particularly obvious. Has Comcast killed all other DVRs now that they have a Tivo option? Because if it is so obvious that no company would support two, they should have by now.
> 
> It is just as likely to think that DirecTV got a good deal from Tivo to get a vocal minority of users off their back. If they got the chance to have a press release announcing a Tivo box at some point in the future without much cost to them, what is the harm? Let's see, it doesn't interfere with the status quo and it calms down a group of current customers.
> 
> DirecTV already had a single third-party vendor for DVRs at one point. They abandoned it. While a return to a Tivo-only world is possible, at this point it is not at all likely. Even if it happens, it will be a number of years down the road.


gregjones,

I'll stand by my prediction. We'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## Ken S

Doug Brott said:


> I'm sure Ken's cool with it  .. Clearly the two of us disagree on this matter ..


I'm absolutely fine with it...this is all about entertainment isn't it?

If I'm wrong I hope reminds me of it...and I'll make sure and do the same.

Of course a year from now we may be talking about why DirecTV isn't offering a DVR with virtual unlimited storage space.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Ouch! Zing! Boom!

But seriously. 

What we have is one press release. We know more about creatures who lived 65 million years ago than we know about what will happen 18 months from now. 

For all anyone knows, this could end up to be total vaporware, or DIRECTV could start using more Tivo-patented features in its HR2x DVRs, or buy the company completely and brand all their DVRs as Tivos, even if they really aren't.

On the other hand, it's also possible that this could produce a device that is so superior to anything in the market now, so stable, simple and yet powerful, that there will be nothing to compete in any provider market. It's possible that even I, who hasn't missed my TiVo a single minute since upgrading to an HR20-700 in September, 2006... will be so blown away that I won't hesitate to replace every DVR in my home with new ones. 

{Possibilities for the future} == ∞.
{Knowledge of the future} == 0.

I think that says it all.


----------



## gregjones

RCY said:


> Are your sources the same ones that said there was not going to be a HD DirectTivo?  I'm sure they're telling you the truth as they currently understand it to be. Maybe corporate has other plans they aren't disclosing to the troops. Not sure why Ken's supposition is considered so outrageous...not saying it's true, but certainly not worthy of ridicule.


This was a left-field announcement that nobody saw coming. This seems to be due to the fact that Tivo offered terms significantly different than they had before. All evidence points to this being the case.

Many of us said it would never happen. We should have said it will never happen unless Tivo pretty much gives it away. It appears they did.

The ridicule is mostly around the assumption by many that the new deal for Tivo spells the pending demise of the HR2x development. There is no reason to assume this and quite a lot of reasons to assume this is not the case.


----------



## ATARI

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think that says it all.


Then might as well close the thread. 

In which case there will be www.NewTiVo4DirecTV.com within a week.


----------



## Ken S

gregjones said:


> The ridicule is mostly around the assumption by many that the new deal for Tivo spells the pending demise of the HR2x development. There is no reason to assume this and quite a lot of reasons to assume this is not the case.


There is plenty of reason to see this as a distinct possibility. You don't agree that's fine. I don't agree with your reasoning.

What has changed since Tivo was dumped by DirecTV...hmm...I know the controlling stake in DirecTV changed. That may have had as much to do with this as anything.

Or maybe not.

Hey...anyone want to buy the Brott/Sweet globe I found?










and one more because it's almost 5 and I've spent the better part of the day on a conference call.


----------



## Ken S

gregjones said:


> This was a left-field announcement that nobody saw coming. This seems to be due to the fact that Tivo offered terms significantly different than they had before. All evidence points to this being the case.
> 
> Many of us said it would never happen. We should have said it will never happen unless Tivo pretty much gives it away. It appears they did.
> 
> The ridicule is mostly around the assumption by many that the new deal for Tivo spells the pending demise of the HR2x development. There is no reason to assume this and quite a lot of reasons to assume this is not the case.


gregjones,

I'm not sure on that. The release seemed to indicate that Tivo was going to be making more this time around. Of course, that could be puffery as much as the stuff about them keeping the existing line of receivers.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Ken S said:


> There is plenty of reason to see this as a distinct possibility. You don't agree that's fine. I don't agree with your reasoning.
> 
> What has changed since Tivo was dumped by DirecTV...hmm...I know the controlling stake in DirecTV changed. That may have had as much to do with this as anything.
> 
> Or maybe not.
> 
> Hey...anyone want to buy the Brott/Sweet globe I found?


Bang, zoom, zoink! Oh, my friend Ken is sharp as a microtome blade today. I consider myself properly dressed down. Forgive me, as I'm not as witty as you. I can simply say...



> There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
> Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
> -WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE / Hamlet Act 1. Scene V abt. 1601


----------



## Ken S

Stuart Sweet said:


> Bang, zoom, zoink! Oh, my friend Ken is sharp as a microtome blade today. I consider myself properly dressed down. Forgive me, as I'm not as witty as you. I can simply say...


Whoa...Shakespeare! I love it...

This wasn't big Bill, but may apply

"Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is."

Doug and Stuart...just to be certain...this is all done in good fun...no offense whatsoever is intended.


----------



## mp11

Stuart Sweet said:


> What we have is one press release.
> 
> 
> 
> A second press release may clear up alot of things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For all anyone knows, this could end up to be total vaporware, or DIRECTV could start using more Tivo-patented features in its HR2x DVRs, or buy the company completely and brand all their DVRs as Tivos, even if they really aren't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And if that's the case, then I'll move on as planned...on to where I *will* get a Tivo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, it's also possible that this could produce a device that is so superior to anything in the market now, so stable, simple and yet powerful, that there will be nothing to compete in any provider market.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Boy does that sound good! Stuart you're a poet. You tell good stories.
Click to expand...


----------



## t_h

bonscott87 said:


> So to me DirecTV doesn't need Tivo at all, they could have kept going their own way.


Apparently not. If they could, they would have. This entails considerable risk and considerable expense. Obviously they anticipate a significant loss of business or a significant upside to this that will offset the risk and cost.



> The only reason they do anything is for *money*.


There ya go. You're getting it.



> This deal most likely is more to keep access to the Tivo patents and keep from being sued in the meantime.


Directv could have simply paid royalties to tivo and gotten all of that, with no customer confusion, no risk, and probably quite a bit lower cost.



> And I guess why not let Tivo put out a new Tivo box so long as it doesn't cost DirecTV anything in the end.


Do you have any inkling of how much it would cost just to train the installers and customer service people, the ill will created in the HR development and marketing teams, etc?

As far as Directv just swooping up Tivo, I dont think they want to be bought. In fact, I think their business model suggests that Comcast and Directv will go away in 5-8 years.


----------



## CJTE

DIRECTV and Tivo to Launch new HD DVR in 2H 2009 
I Believe

DirecTVs primary motive for the re-partnership with Tivo was to subdue possible future legal complications. Making all the tivo owners happy, just a nice plus.

DirecTV told us that they were severing ties, and therefore thats we believed, and thats why the Moderators here told everyone not to expect this.

I have NO idea about OTA capabilities, but I would like to assume it will have built in tuners.

The HDDVR line is far from obsolete. While some of your hardware may be older, its constantly getting new software/features (upgrades).

The Tivo box will once again be designed and developed by... Tivo!
I cant comment much on weather features will be watered down, but if there are features disabled/removed, remember it may not necesarily be the choice of DirecTV, but rather, Tivo not including those features.

It *will* cost more to own/lease a Tivo.

The HD Tivo will be an alternative choice for customers, and there will be a cost to that choice.

The code for the Tivo unit, as with before, will be maintained by Tivo. While the DirecTV-based units are being devved in-house (versus NDS)

Offering customers more choices is never a bad idea. BUT, it may be more confusing, atleast, for a little while.



Mertzen said:


> They better work without land lines.


That one made me :lol:
Tivos have to call home to Tivo (unless you hack them), whether they have to *call*, we'll have to wait and find out.



Tom Robertson said:


> The question is...
> 
> Will the TiVo versions have:
> 
> One Touch Record
> Two Touch Series Links
> Recording Defaults
> Overlapping recordings on a single tuner
> Single Sat. Tuner and dual OTA tuner configurations
> Media Share
> DLNA support


Strong points. None of which I can answer, at the current second. We'll have to wait and see.

Thats all for now folks. If the mods don't delete this I'll continue manana. (Sorry guys)


----------



## bakerfall

DirecTivos did not need to call home to work, they just gave you annoying messages if you didn't.


----------



## CJTE

bakerfall said:


> DirecTivos did not need to call home to work, they just gave you annoying messages if you didn't.


If you havent "activated your dvr service" error 86
You *Have* to call home.

If you reformat, you *have* to phone home.

AFAIK, the tivo box really will be a seperate box. Under Tivo control. And not Tivo software on a DirecTV receiver.

And having a tivo box/software WILL COST MORE
Higher lease fee/dvr service or whatever they call it.


----------



## bakerfall

CJTE said:


> If you havent "activated your dvr service" error 86
> You *Have* to call home.
> 
> If you reformat, you *have* to phone home.
> 
> AFAIK, the tivo box really will be a seperate box. Under Tivo control. And not Tivo software on a DirecTV receiver.
> 
> And having a tivo box/software WILL COST MORE
> Higher lease fee/dvr service or whatever they call it.


I meant to function.

And I don't understand the as far as i know comment, no one knows. It was actually stated that it would run on DirecTV hardware, but no one knows for sure. Either way, it will cost more.


----------



## mjbvideo

It's the failure of their in-house software development that led them to go crawling back to TIVO. They know they have a bad product line - for whatever reason, and it's probably cheaper for them to going back to the outsourcing scheme with TIVO.


----------



## gregjones

mjbvideo said:


> It's the failure of their in-house software development that led them to go crawling back to TIVO. They know they have a bad product line - for whatever reason, and it's probably cheaper for them to going back to the outsourcing scheme with TIVO.


You haven't read the last five of six pages have you? The consensus is that DirecTV's deal was centered around intellectual property and the DVR product offering was a side effect.

I am happy for the Tivo fans out there, I really am. But there's a huge difference in being happy about the choice versus assuming this is a no-confidence vote for the HR2x team. For the 1000th time, look at the numbers. The HR2x has been one of the most successful series of hardware in DirecTV history. It far eclipses the number of HD DirecTivos out there.

I understand the tendency to associate one thing with the other, but there is no compelling reason to make this jump. Be happy to have a choice in the future and leave it at that.


----------



## mercator1

I just switched to Dish because moving to DirecTV meant I was losing the Tivo I have had with them for over a decade. I like the Dish DVR, but I preferred the Tivo software. I think I'll let them get the bugs out and then switch back.


----------



## Doug Brott

mercator1 said:


> I just switched to Dish because moving to DirecTV meant I was losing the Tivo I have had with them for over a decade. I like the Dish DVR, but I preferred the Tivo software. I think I'll let them get the bugs out and then switch back.


You know, I understand liking TiVo .. but DIRECTV still has TiVo (albeit SD and OTA-HD only) .. switching to DISH .. you're guaranteed to not have TiVo :shrug:


----------



## Sixto

Why did the DirecTV TiVo deal get announced?

If you love the HR2x (or neutral), you pick from and post:

A legal isssue. DirecTV wanted to be free from legal issues through 2018
Murduch forced TiVo out, and with Malone DirecTV can remain the premier TV provider by providing their customers with another choice, of which the cost will just be passed onto those customers that prefer the choice. All is well with the HR2x product line.

If you love TiVo (or neutral), you pick from and post:

The HR2x is a problem child, and DirecTV needs TiVo to retain and attract new customers.
DirecTV has grown tired of hearing the request for TiVo and needs the new box to satisfy their customers.
It's financially better to outsource to TiVo and have DirecTV focus on the TV content business.
We should just make it easy and you select pro-HR2x, or pro-TiVo, or Neutral and a random number generator selects from above! 

The net ... any of the above ... and we may never know the real answer ...

If I had more time, could expand the list above based on the 1200+ posts and develop the automatic post program ...


----------



## Phil21

As fun as conjecture is, I'll certainly look forward to the final product.

Choice is always a good thing. As previously mentioned, all I really want is a reliable DVR. If that requirement is satisfied I'm a happy camper, no matter how it is provided to me! The only other huge feature that I'd be willing to switch to one platform for another would be MRV - sorely lacking on any DirecTV equipment currently.

So, give me a *reliable* DVR and MRV.. and I will love you long time 

The side bonus to this is my parents will probably not be upgrading to HD until around the time this unit comes out. So far, they know that if they get a new TV they "give up their Tivo" and to them, that is a fate worse than death. Even after attempting to explain how they get very similar features in another product. This will certainly allow for a much less painful upgrade for them, and consequently for myself due to much fewer "tech support" calls where I want to slam my forehead into my desk repeatedly


----------



## generalpatton78

CJTE said:


> If you havent "activated your dvr service" error 86
> You *Have* to call home.
> 
> If you reformat, you *have* to phone home.


I'm sure it will be able to use a ethernet port.


CJTE said:


> AFAIK, the tivo box really will be a seperate box. Under Tivo control. And not Tivo software on a DirecTV receiver.
> 
> And having a tivo box/software WILL COST MORE
> Higher lease fee/dvr service or whatever they call it.


Where are you getting your info? You make it sound like this is a Series 3 box with just Directv tuners and cards instead of Cable. I'm sure tivo is making the software and I hope they have more control this time around but I don't expect these boxes to have the same feature set as the stand alones. A prime expample is MRV to the PC. I don't think Directv lets tivo touch that with a 10 foot pole on the new box. I also don't think Amazon Unbox will be part of the deal. I think DOD replaces that if we are lucky.

Personally I just want and will be happy beyond belief if we get a Tivo that does what the HR10-250 did plus

a) Runs as fast as the stand alone tivos
b)Works with DOD
c)MRV would be HUGE

that's it !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## raott

gregjones said:


> I am happy for the Tivo fans out there, I really am. But there's a huge difference in being happy about the choice versus assuming this is a no-confidence vote for the HR2x team. For the 1000th time, look at the numbers. The HR2x has been one of the most successful series of hardware in DirecTV history. It far eclipses the number of HD DirecTivos out there.


Huh? The HR2x series the only choice if you want D* (unless you go to something like ebay). So, for the 100th time, the vast numbers of HR2x's that are out there, does not even remotely correlate to "success".


----------



## wingrider01

Ken S said:


> Except that to sell enough to cover those costs would mean the HR2X line wasn't necessary anyway.
> 
> When you say it's all speculation...what were you expecting? I'd pull out secret memos from Chase Carey to Tom Robertson detailing the whole plan? Of course, it's speculation. It was all speculation before this happened. Some speculated it would never happen (even some at DirecTV)...others said it might/would happen. That's part of what a forum like this is about.


But if you look at the non-validated poll that was posted here, the majority of people would not be willing to pay anything more for the unit. Ergo the speculation there could be that if they do release the unit, if there is any additional charge then then a limited number would be willing to incure the extra costs to have a TIVO based unit in their home.

/rofl only thing that can be pretty well predicted in this whole discussion will be that if the unit is not available early second quarter 2009 as mentioned, then their will be an abundance of new threads all with the same line of screaming where is the promised unit...


----------



## wingrider01

mjbvideo said:


> It's the failure of their in-house software development that led them to go crawling back to TIVO. They know they have a bad product line - for whatever reason, and it's probably cheaper for them to going back to the outsourcing scheme with TIVO.


err what failure? Sorry, matter of opinion here, right now the currect software on the HR2x's are a lot more stable then what you think. The issues are being resolved on the units.

/rofl "crawling back to TIVO" thanks needed that.considering the quarterly reports that are given in regards to subscriber retention and new subscribers this can pretty well be disproven.


----------



## MX727

Doug Brott said:


> You know, I understand liking TiVo .. but DIRECTV still has TiVo (albeit SD and OTA-HD only) .. switching to DISH .. you're guaranteed to not have TiVo :shrug:


But, he got DLB and MRV.

I don't care what the name is on the box as long as it has the features I want and it is stable.

I was ready to leave, but this announcement was just in time. I didn't really want to have to switch. I figure with this announcement we will get DLB sooner rather than later.

Especially since Stuart and you have seemed to become more coy in your discussion of DLB.


----------



## rahlquist

generalpatton78 said:


> Where are you getting your info? You make it sound like this is a Series 3 box with just Directv tuners and cards instead of Cable.


This is something I have been asking for/suggesting for a while.

Our TV is the HID (human interface device)

Our DVR is the recording and/or playback device

A tuner is a tuner. Be it SAT, Cable, IPTV, or PC.

Tivo should be making DVR in cookie cutter fashion which (internally) accept any standardized HD or SD Video source similar to cable card. That way it seriously would limit their R&D cost for each new venture.

X Company wants Tivo for its customers, fine, here are the specs for the video out, here are the specs for the Tivo control over the tuner, and here are the specs for guide content.

This way Tivo could build a rock solid DVR engine, and do nothing but develop that. D* and E* and Comcast etc would simply pay Tivo the fees, provide them with hardware tuners and away we go.


----------



## gregjones

rahlquist said:


> This is something I have been asking for/suggesting for a while.
> 
> Our TV is the HID (human interface device)
> 
> Our DVR is the recording and/or playback device
> 
> A tuner is a tuner. Be it SAT, Cable, IPTV, or PC.
> 
> Tivo should be making DVR in cookie cutter fashion which (internally) accept any standardized HD or SD Video source similar to cable card. That way it seriously would limit their R&D cost for each new venture.
> 
> X Company wants Tivo for its customers, fine, here are the specs for the video out, here are the specs for the Tivo control over the tuner, and here are the specs for guide content.
> 
> This way Tivo could build a rock solid DVR engine, and do nothing but develop that. D* and E* and Comcast etc would simply pay Tivo the fees, provide them with hardware tuners and away we go.


This is the design of MythTV: frontend and backend with tuners. Keep in mind that MythTV was designed to be able to have those on separate boxes fairly early on in the product.


----------



## generalpatton78

rahlquist said:


> This is something I have been asking for/suggesting for a while.
> 
> Our TV is the HID (human interface device)
> 
> Our DVR is the recording and/or playback device
> 
> A tuner is a tuner. Be it SAT, Cable, IPTV, or PC.
> 
> Tivo should be making DVR in cookie cutter fashion which (internally) accept any standardized HD or SD Video source similar to cable card. That way it seriously would limit their R&D cost for each new venture.
> 
> X Company wants Tivo for its customers, fine, here are the specs for the video out, here are the specs for the Tivo control over the tuner, and here are the specs for guide content.
> 
> This way Tivo could build a rock solid DVR engine, and do nothing but develop that. D* and E* and Comcast etc would simply pay Tivo the fees, provide them with hardware tuners and away we go.


The problem is D* and cable companies don't want to give tivo that control. Just look at the Cable Card 2.0 fight. Then you have SDV and cable is luckily feeling so much pressure they are building the SDV tuner box for tivo and other devices. While the Sat companies will fight like tooth and nail to never let a cable card type tech ever happen to them. They certainly don't want you to be able to switch services and not have to worry about hardware costs. The only hope we have is if the MPAA losses the analog hole fight and Tivo introduces a stand alone tivo that can record HD from component.


----------



## HarleyD

gregjones said:


> You haven't read the last five of six pages have you? The consensus is that DirecTV's deal was centered around intellectual property and the DVR product offering was a side effect.
> 
> I am happy for the Tivo fans out there, I really am. But there's a huge difference in being happy about the choice versus assuming this is a no-confidence vote for the HR2x team. For the 1000th time, look at the numbers. *The HR2x has been one of the most successful series of hardware in DirecTV history. It far eclipses the number of HD DirecTivos out there.*
> I understand the tendency to associate one thing with the other, but there is no compelling reason to make this jump. Be happy to have a choice in the future and leave it at that.


I'm not slamming the HR2X products. My HR20 has served me adequately for over 18 months.

However with regard to the implication that being a more successful series of hardware makes it a superior product, in fairness the HR2X line owes a great deal (if not most) of that success to the proliferation of HD content on DirecTV and the point in time when it was introduced.

HD was bleeding edge, extremely pricey and the content very limited during the HR10's product life. I don't think you can reasonably assume that the HR2X would have been as successful as it has been within a comparable environment.

It's apples and oranges.


----------



## RCY

MX727 said:


> But, he got DLB and MRV.
> 
> I don't care what the name is on the box as long as it has the features I want and it is stable.


Perfect summary. I can certainly understand some attractiveness to the 722 for those reasons. But the last time I experienced the Dish UI and remote (for a simple receiver, not a DVR) it was dreadful. My brief experience with the HR2x interface led me to believe it was far superior.

But DLB and stability...sounds like a plan to me. MRV would certainly be icing on that cake. As far as a new DTivo inspires a bit of competition between the two teams to push the products to be better, I'm all for it.


----------



## rahlquist

generalpatton78 said:


> The problem is D* and cable companies don't want to give tivo that control. Just look at the Cable Card 2.0 fight. Then you have SDV and cable is luckily feeling so much pressure they are building the SDV tuner box for tivo and other devices. While the Sat companies will fight like tooth and nail to never let a cable card type tech ever happen to them. They certainly don't want you to be able to switch services and not have to worry about hardware costs. The only hope we have is if the MPAA losses the analog hole fight and Tivo introduces a stand alone tivo that can record HD from component.


I agree with you 100%. Its also likely something the wouldn't want to happen due to consumer perception. If it ever came to pass all D* and anyone else providing programming would become is just the connection. Perceived value would lessen IMHO.


----------



## gregjones

HarleyD said:


> I'm not slamming the HR2X products. My HR20 has served me adequately for over 18 months.
> 
> However with regard to the implication that being a more successful series of hardware makes it a superior product, in fairness the HR2X line owes a great deal (if not most) of that success to the proliferation of HD content on DirecTV and the point in time when it was introduced.
> 
> HD was bleeding edge, extremely pricey and the content very limited during the HR10's product life. I don't think you can reasonably assume that the HR2X would have been as successful as it has been within a comparable environment.
> 
> It's apples and oranges.


I am not arguing for it being superior. I am arguing that it has been a financial success for DirecTV. I am not assuming it would have been more or less successful than any other piece of equipment not offered at the time. My point is that companies are generally hesitant to kill a product that has been a consistently good source of revenue. By the very objective measures of numbers activated, DVR fees associated with those units and new subscribers with those units as primary receivers, DirecTV would be hard-pressed not to call it a successful product.

This is somewhat like watching a critically acclaimed movie. It may have a devoted fan base and be exceptionally well-made. Generally the studio is most concerned with its ability to make money. Many great films lost money. Many horrible films were very profitable. DirecTV has specific goals for a DVR: increase associated fees, attract subscribers, retain subscribers. Winning design awards makes for nice press releases, but doesn't directly impact the three real goals.


----------



## bonscott87

t_h said:


> Directv could have simply paid royalties to tivo and gotten all of that, with no customer confusion, no risk, and probably quite a bit lower cost.


I won't address all your points as others have done a good job since last I was on. But please, it's a whole lot cheaper to extend an agreement and let Tivo put out a new boxs then to spend billions in litigation and potentially lose more millions/billions if you lose (just ask Dish). If the new Tivo box is a hit or makes a bunch of money it's a bonus.


----------



## RCY

bonscott87 said:


> I won't address all your points as others have done a good job since last I was on. But please, it's a whole lot cheaper to extend an agreement and let Tivo put out a new boxs then to spend billions in litigation and potentially lose more millions/billions if you lose (just ask Dish). If the new Tivo box is a hit or makes a bunch of money it's a bonus.


I've heard this point made a couple of times, and I don't quite understand it.

What particular patents or intellectual property does TIVO hold that makes it so scary to an entity over 30 times it's size? (0.8 Billion market cap for TIVO, 30.6Billion market cap for DirectTV per Yahoo Finance)

Dish (Echostar) with a market cap of "only" 2.5 Billion is much more of a peer with TIVO than D* is.

Billions in litigation? At a 50% premium to current market value, it would only take D* around 1.2 Billion to buy TIVO outright. D* made 7 times that in profit last year.


----------



## Ken S

bonscott87 said:


> I won't address all your points as others have done a good job since last I was on. But please, it's a whole lot cheaper to extend an agreement and let Tivo put out a new boxs then to spend billions in litigation and potentially lose more millions/billions if you lose (just ask Dish). If the new Tivo box is a hit or makes a bunch of money it's a bonus.


Billions on litigation...come on. I guess you figure their lawyers are going to require tanks and fighter jets?


----------



## gregjones

Ken S said:


> Billions on litigation...come on. I guess you figure their lawyers are going to require tanks and fighter jets?


...just lots of shovels when it gets deep, lol


----------



## DarinC

Ken S said:


> Billions on litigation...come on. I guess you figure their lawyers are going to require tanks and fighter jets?


Only in the Michael Bay version.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DarinC said:


> Only in the Michael Bay version.


!rolling !rolling !rolling

Yeah...and he'll be whining all the way to the Bank.


----------



## CJTE

I was trying to keep a seperate thread to answer all of the questions throughout the 48+ pages of this thread.

Guess that didn't work out.


----------



## CJTE

generalpatton78 said:


> I'm sure it will be able to use a ethernet port.


Im betting so as well



generalpatton78 said:


> Where are you getting your info?


DirecTV



generalpatton78 said:


> You make it sound like this is a Series 3 box with just Directv tuners and cards instead of Cable. I'm sure tivo is making the software and I hope they have more control this time around but I don't expect these boxes to have the same feature set as the stand alones. A prime expample is MRV to the PC. I don't think Directv lets tivo touch that with a 10 foot pole on the new box. I also don't think Amazon Unbox will be part of the deal. I think DOD replaces that if we are lucky.


Based on what I've seen, read, and researched, I'm expecting something similar to a Series 3 box. 
Its quite clear Tivo will make the software. Whats not-so-clear is how people expect it to run on DirecTVs (current) receivers. Its not like a CE where you download it for 10 minutes and you're good. The tivo software is a whole different operating system.
FWIW, I don't expect these boxes to have all of the features of the Series 3 boxes either. MRV would be dependent upon how far along DirecTV is, if DirecTV is ready to release it, they'll tell Tivo what the parameters are.
DOD most likely will replace Amazon Unbox, but I think DOD will come as a software upgrade after the box rolls.



generalpatton78 said:


> Personally I just want and will be happy beyond belief if we get a Tivo that does what the HR10-250 did plus
> 
> a) Runs as fast as the stand alone tivos
> b)Works with DOD
> c)MRV would be HUGE
> 
> that's it !!!!!!!!!!


Tivos run fast? :lol:
Personally, I'm hoping for the same thing, that this new unit will run much quicker.
DOD, like I said, is very possible.
I strongly doubt that the Tivo will be DirecTV's flagship for MRV. Even though the Tivo already has the capability, Im betting DirecTV will want to use that as a selling point of their own units (not to mention, like I said, that the Tivos will undoubtedly cost more monthly to run).


----------



## Doug Brott

CJTE said:


> Whats not-so-clear is how people expect it to run on DirecTVs (current) receivers. Its not like a CE where you download it for 10 minutes and you're good.


That is the indication that I'm hearing at this point and seems to been buoyed by the comments in the press release.



CJTE said:


> The tivo software is a whole different operating system.


Yeah .. so? .. that just means that all of the drivers need to be worked out so that it runs on the existing hardware .. not that it can't be done.


----------



## wingrider01

Ken S said:


> Billions on litigation...come on. I guess you figure their lawyers are going to require tanks and fighter jets?


It more then likely be taken all the way up to to supreme court - that is not going to be cheap. Armies of lawyers, gaggles of Lawyer assistants, reams of Legal Aids, hundreds of secretaries, thousands of starbucks Latte Grande's, Judges, court costs, jury costs, years of delay.

Wonder if Dish deciding to fight the last court decision will have any fallout?


----------



## wingrider01

CJTE said:


> The tivo software is a whole different operating system.


Would it not be more accurate to say a whole different application, from what I recall the OS is/was one of the flavors of linux, the TIVO was just a application installed in it, same with the HR2X's.

which makes it interesting point - are they both written for the same flavor of Linux?


----------



## Ken S

wingrider01 said:


> It more then likely be taken all the way up to to supreme court - that is not going to be cheap. Armies of lawyers, gaggles of Lawyer assistants, reams of Legal Aids, hundreds of secretaries, thousands of starbucks Latte Grande's, Judges, court costs, jury costs, years of delay.
> 
> Wonder if Dish deciding to fight the last court decision will have any fallout?


Yes, the Supreme Court jury costs add up.


----------



## bonscott87

Sorry, yea, billions is overstating it. But hundreds of millions is not out of the question easily. And a judgement against DirecTV could easily cross a billion, depends how much it's found they infringe. You can bet Dish has spent at least half a billion already on lawyers and judgement costs and they aren't done yet.

Or they sign an agreement as they just did for what I would gather is much cheaper and keeps both companies out of court. Work together on a "premium" Tivo product that Tivo desperately needs to do (and thus DirecTV finally got the terms they wanted) and even if the number of new HD DirecTivo boxes stays under a million (a good bet, at least for a long while, unless it really blows away the DirecTV DVR and the extra costs isn't too much the average user will go for it) so long as it at least makes a little bit of money or at least pays for the extra support costs then it's a win-win all around.

And don't think what was brought up earlier about it would just be easier to buy Tivo hasn't crossed DirecTV's mind. Charlie could decide to do just that and be done with all this infringing stuff. Thus again DirecTV protects their own interest by heading that off at the pass. And I'm sure there are clauses in the contracts that state is Dish or another competitor were to buy Tivo that DirecTV comes out rosey in the end. 

There are many reasons to do this deal that have nothing to do with bringing a new box to market. I think the new HD DirecTivo is just a side project to the big picture. Either way, a win for the hard core and a win for DirecTV as a company and a BIG win for Tivo as a company. And a c#$# block of Charlie and Dish.


----------



## CJTE

Doug Brott said:


> Yeah .. so? .. that just means that all of the drivers need to be worked out so that it runs on the existing hardware .. not that it can't be done.


1) I doubt DirecTV would throw Tivo a few of their HDDVRs and just say 'make it work'
2) Differences in hardware will actually give the units different abilities/feature sets, thereby making it a choice.
3) If it were an operating system available for download, customers would need a means to download it, without corruption, and DirecTV would need a way to track it, _and_ know what boxes were running it, so they could charge the nominal fee. Add that some form of security would have to be laid down in order to keep anyone from downloading it.
It actually sounds more like an expense, and hassle, to deal with, then having a whole seperate unit.



wingrider01 said:


> Would it not be more accurate to say a whole different application, from what I recall the OS is/was one of the flavors of linux, the TIVO was just a application installed in it, same with the HR2X's.
> 
> which makes it interesting point - are they both written for the same flavor of Linux?


Tivo sits on a flavor of NIX, but right now I cant remember which.
DirecTV runs proprietary software, and if they are running *NIX then they haven't been forced to produce a GPL, meaning they probably haven't changed anything.


----------



## CJTE

Doug Brott said:


> That is the indication that I'm hearing at this point and seems to been buoyed by the comments in the press release.


Ask DirecTV if they will give you an official word :lol:
If you're talking about the *comment* in the press release "development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo® service,"
It clearly states, developing, new HD DIRECTV DVR, (running) TiVo® service.
So it says service, and not software, thats because the Tivo software is actually part of a service provided by Tivo, but its planned to be devved onto a *new* box.
My assumption is that the new box will be a Tivo branded box.
Maybe DirecTV will make it and tell Tivo to make their software fit.
My *Point* is that I strongly doubt you'll see Tivo software running on an HR20.

"Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009."

DirecTV and Tivo will work together to dev Tivo software that will fit on DirecTVs broadband-enabled HDDVR platform. So they'll work together on software that'll fit on internet-capable boxes, therefore, landline calls probably wont be a problem 

It'll support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services. Meaning DoD and DLB are probably good to go. (OK so DLB is actually really old, but its Tivos).

TiVo will develop the new HD DVR. I dont know about you, but it doesnt say service there, it stops with HD DVR, which to me, means the box and all, with DirecTVs assistance regarding the software.

The only iffy comment I could find was
"and such rights will extend to new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo."
Where the wording makes it sound like the DVRs will be devved by DirecTV, and the service/software will be devved by Tivo. But taking a second look at that made me realize, the DVRs will in fact be USED with DirecTV, but will be developed by Tivo.

Atleast, that's my take on it guys & gals. Like I said, I Believe


----------



## Jhon69

CJTE said:


> Ask DirecTV if they will give you an official word :lol:
> If you're talking about the *comment* in the press release "development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo® service,"
> It clearly states, developing, new HD DIRECTV DVR, (running) TiVo® service.
> So it says service, and not software, thats because the Tivo software is actually part of a service provided by Tivo, but its planned to be devved onto a *new* box.
> My assumption is that the new box will be a Tivo branded box.
> Maybe DirecTV will make it and tell Tivo to make their software fit.
> My *Point* is that I strongly doubt you'll see Tivo software running on an HR20.
> 
> "Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009."
> 
> DirecTV and Tivo will work together to dev Tivo software that will fit on DirecTVs broadband-enabled HDDVR platform. So they'll work together on software that'll fit on internet-capable boxes, therefore, landline calls probably wont be a problem
> 
> It'll support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services. Meaning DoD and DLB are probably good to go. (OK so DLB is actually really old, but its Tivos).
> 
> TiVo will develop the new HD DVR. I dont know about you, but it doesnt say service there, it stops with HD DVR, which to me, means the box and all, with DirecTVs assistance regarding the software.
> 
> The only iffy comment I could find was
> "and such rights will extend to new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service to be developed by TiVo."
> Where the wording makes it sound like the DVRs will be devved by DirecTV, and the service/software will be devved by Tivo. But taking a second look at that made me realize, the DVRs will in fact be USED with DirecTV, but will be developed by Tivo.
> 
> Atleast, that's my take on it guys & gals. Like I said, I Believe


Now you did read what you wrote? right?.In one statement you suggest that you believe you will never see Tivo software in an HR20?.

Then you quote the article that Tivo and DirecTV will work together to enable a Tivo version software in DirecTV's HD DVR broadband based platform?

So it would seem to me that it just might be possible to see Tivo's software in the HR20.Hmmm...could be if we are to believe everything we read.


----------



## Doug Brott

CJTE said:


> My assumption ...


This says it all .. you're welcome to believe what I've stated or "believe" your own assumptions .. It could go either way as TiVo moves through the process, but ..


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> This says it all .. you're welcome to believe what I've stated or "believe" your own assumptions .. It could go either way as TiVo moves through the process, but ..


Oops! Sorry missed that.My Bad. :sure: :new_color :dozey:


----------



## wingrider01

Ken S said:


> Yes, the Supreme Court jury costs add up.


You do realize in our court system that there are a number of courts that have to be gone through before it hits the supreme court - those 12.00 a day costs really add up 
fast.

Would be funny if a temporary cease and desist court order was issued until the court case is resolved.


----------



## Ken S

wingrider01 said:


> You do realize in our court system that there are a number of courts that have to be gone through before it hits the supreme court - those 12.00 a day costs really add up
> fast.
> 
> Would be funny if a temporary cease and desist court order was issued until the court case is resolved.


You're being facetious I hope.


----------



## CJTE

Jhon69 said:


> Now you did read what you wrote? right?.In one statement you suggest that you believe you will never see Tivo software in an HR20?.
> 
> Then you quote the article that Tivo and DirecTV will work together to enable a Tivo version software in DirecTV's HD DVR broadband based platform?
> 
> So it would seem to me that it just might be possible to see Tivo's software in the HR20.Hmmm...could be if we are to believe everything we read.


Just because the software will be on DirecTV's HD DVR broadband-enabled platform, doesnt mean it'll be on any product thats currently out, or a product thats Developed by DirecTV. It'll be a product that fits into their HDDVR line. And I beleive I commented that exclusively, as a matter-of-fact, I did.
"DirecTV and Tivo will work together to dev Tivo software that will fit on DirecTVs broadband-enabled HDDVR platform. *So they'll work together on software that'll fit on internet-capable boxes*, therefore, landline calls probably wont be a problem"


----------



## CJTE

Doug Brott said:


> This says it all .. you're welcome to believe what I've stated or "believe" your own assumptions .. It could go either way as TiVo moves through the process, but ..


Im not saying your wrong.
I'm saying that what you've taken from the press release/etc and what I've taken from the press release is different.

I cant post my source from DirecTV, just as much as you, Tom, or anyone else couldnt, but I can quote the press release and show how I'm reading it. If you or anyone else choose to read it differently, than so-be-it.


----------



## RCY

All this conspiracy and subterfuge talk is great fun, but I really think Occam's Razor applies here. (Simplest answer is probably the truth)

D* sees a substantial pool of subscribers (TIVO lovers) who they want to tap into. The easiest way to get them is to provide a TIVO alternative. TIVO invests the development $$, and D* collects profit on each TIVO box in use by D* customers. TIVO takes all the risk and upfront cost, and D* collects on the back end. Seems like a good business decision to me.


----------



## spartanstew

RCY said:


> All this conspiracy and subterfuge talk is great fun, but I really think Occam's Razor applies here. (Simplest answer is probably the truth)
> 
> D* sees a substantial pool of subscribers (TIVO lovers) who they want to tap into. The easiest way to get them is to provide a TIVO alternative. TIVO invests the development $$, and D* collects profit on each TIVO box in use by D* customers. TIVO takes all the risk and upfront cost, and D* collects on the back end. Seems like a good business decision to me.




1. Ockham's razor is about solutions to problems. Not answers to questions.
2. Regardless, your "answer" isn't very simple.


----------



## harsh

RCY said:


> TIVO takes all the risk and upfront cost, and D* collects on the back end. Seems like a good business decision to me.


While I agree that TiVo takes all the risks up front, the D* contribution is on an accelerating scale from 2010 forward which will shift at least some of the burden towards them.


----------



## RCY

spartanstew said:


> 1. Ockham's razor is about solutions to problems. Not answers to questions.
> 2. Regardless, your "answer" isn't very simple.


1. The definition I found: Occam's razor - This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." If you don't see an application to explaining D* purposes in signing an agreement with TIVO, you're welcome to that interpretation.

2. Let me be more concise: D* did it to make money on TIVO lovers.


----------



## RCY

harsh said:


> While I agree that TiVo takes all the risks up front, the D* contribution is on an accelerating scale from 2010 forward which will shift at least some of the burden towards them.


I missed that in the agreement. Could you explain?


----------



## harsh

RCY said:


> I missed that in the agreement. Could you explain?


Please read post #2 in this thread.


----------



## RCY

harsh said:


> Please read post #2 in this thread.


I assume you're referring to the following:

"The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement."

I take this to mean that the fees D* charges for the HD Dtivo to their suscribers will increase, and D* will pass some of the increase along to TIVO.


----------



## harsh

RCY said:


> I take this to mean that the fees D* charges for the HD Dtivo by their suscribers will increase, and D* will pass some of the increase along to TIVO.


No. What it means is that D* starts paying $1.50 per new DirecTiVo household instead of the current $1 now and then in 2010, regardless of how many have subscribed to TiVo service, there is a substantially higher monthly minimum payment required.

The next paragraph speaks to D* having to reinstate their TiVo marketing push which will also cost money.

TiVo is developing the software to run on the HR2x "platform" and with some important exceptions, they are footing the bill.


----------



## RCY

harsh said:


> No. What it means is that D* starts paying $1.50 per new DirecTiVo household instead of the current $1 now and then in 2010, regardless of how many have subscribed to TiVo service, there is a substantially higher monthly minimum payment required.
> 
> The next paragraph speaks to D* having to reinstate their TiVo marketing push which will also cost money.
> 
> TiVo is developing the software to run on the HR2x "platform" and with some important exceptions, they are footing the bill.


Point taken on the advertising. The advertising is certainly on D* as you say. However, I see all other fees flowing straight to the subscribers.


----------



## wingrider01

Ken S said:


> You're being facetious I hope.


Given that the combined intelligence of the supreme courts in some of the states are that of a kumquat (my apologies to the kumquats of the world) - no one really knows.

reference the latest ruling from the Virginia Supreme Court concerning the Anti-Spam law and the nations most obnoxious and prolific spammer

"The Virginia law "is unconstitutionally overbroad on its face because it prohibits the anonymous transmission of all unsolicited bulk e-mails, including those containing political, religious or other speech protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution," Justice G. Steven Agee wrote."

So I leave it up to you to determine if the statement has any possiblity


----------



## wingrider01

harsh said:


> No. What it means is that D* starts paying $1.50 per new DirecTiVo household instead of the current $1 now and then in 2010, regardless of how many have subscribed to TiVo service, there is a substantially higher monthly minimum payment required.
> 
> The next paragraph speaks to D* having to reinstate their TiVo marketing push which will also cost money.
> 
> TiVo is developing the software to run on the HR2x "platform" and with some important exceptions, they are footing the bill.


In the same release they also reference that there is going to be a different pricing structure for the TIVO based units also (which had not been developed - so it appears that those adopters of the new box will help subsidize the cost of the new box


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect these units will be competitively priced and competitively designed in terms of features. That would eb the only reason to even engage Tivo for any kind of re-introduction.


----------



## harsh

wingrider01 said:


> In the same release they also reference that there is going to be a different pricing structure for the TIVO based units also (which had not been developed - so it appears that those adopters of the new box will help subsidize the cost of the new box


There is no such evidence that the end users will have to bear substantial additional costs. With the exception of D* specified capabilities and enhancements, TiVo is apparently fronting the costs.


----------



## harsh

RCY said:


> However, I see all other fees flowing straight to the subscribers.


The fees are made clear in the SEC filing: an additional $0.50 per household that uses the new software.


----------



## wingrider01

harsh said:


> There is no such evidence that the end users will have to bear substantial additional costs. With the exception of D* specified capabilities and enhancements, TiVo is apparently fronting the costs.


There is no evidience that it will not, there is a line in the press release that states the pricing structure for this has not been determined as of yet. Which can indicate that there could be a different price point for the TIVO based unit.

From the presee release -

"Like prior products developed by TiVo and DIRECTV, the new HD offering will be marketed and sold by DIRECTV nationally to its entire customer base as part of its growing portfolio of brand name video offerings. Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product."

Sure seems to indicate that there will be a surcharge for the units. Then again this is all speculation from a different pricing structure to the ETA of the box actually hitting the streets, only the furture will tell -

In addition that same release states that the Directv units will continue to be offered as the primary units to new and existing subscription with the option of going for a TIVO based unit as an alternative - again, in personal expierence have never seen "options" be given way free. Time will tell though. we will see in about a 9 months to a year down the road


----------



## Jhon69

CJTE said:


> Just because the software will be on DirecTV's HD DVR broadband-enabled platform, doesnt mean it'll be on any product thats currently out, or a product thats Developed by DirecTV. It'll be a product that fits into their HDDVR line. And I beleive I commented that exclusively, as a matter-of-fact, I did.
> "DirecTV and Tivo will work together to dev Tivo software that will fit on DirecTVs broadband-enabled HDDVR platform. *So they'll work together on software that'll fit on internet-capable boxes*, therefore, landline calls probably wont be a problem"


So the HRxxs and R22 isn't considered internet capable?.


----------



## MX727

Substantial can have a lot of meanings.

If there are 3 million Tivo DVR's, a 50 cent charge for each is substantial in total (1,500,000), but not much to individual users.

So, first we need to figure out what they are talking about before we start freaking out that it's going to be a $10 up-charge per household. 

BTW, $30,000,000 per month would qualify as substantial. 

If you guys all think that is what Tivo is going to be getting, you might want to invest in their stock, as I think their annual reports are really going to be amazing.


----------



## Jack_Skellington

Up until today, I didn't really have a reason to make that statement. Now I do. I used and SD TiVo (Hughes HDVR2) for 5+ years, and it NEVER missed a single recording. Well tonight this HR-21 just missed two recordings for no reason at all. The stupid thing is, the guide and to do list both say the two shows are recording. Yet I go in the playlist, and neither recording shows there. The two shows I was attempting to record are "Fringe" on FOX, and "True Blood" on HBO. I was actually wondering if I would have reason to go back to TiVo next year, but now I definitely do have a reason. TiVo is so much more reliable than this crappy DVR. I just hope there are no delays putting out the new TiVo. I will be waiting and hoping this HR-21 doesn't miss any more recordings.


----------



## davring

Jack_Skellington said:


> Well tonight this HR-21 just missed two recordings for no reason at all.
> 
> There was a reason for it not to record. More information is necessary to try and determine why. Are both tuners showing signal strenght?
> 
> And Welcome to DBSTalk!


----------



## Jack_Skellington

You're right, there is a reason. The reason is the HR-21 is not a reliabe DVR. There is excellent signal strengh on both tuners. I'm using a new dish setup that was installed with the HR-21 a couple of months ago. There's no reason for a weak signal.

Luckily I set my series link for "True Blood" on HBO East, so I set it to record on HBO West later. I just hope it will actually record this time. As for "Fringe" I'm out of luck and need to try to catch it online now. So can't wait to get TiVo back next year.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm merging this discussion with the other discussion of the upcoming DIRECTV-Tivo.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jack_Skellington said:


> You're right, there is a reason. The reason is the HR-21 is not a reliabe DVR. There is excellent signal strengh on both tuners. I'm using a new dish setup that was installed with the HR-21 a couple of months ago. There's no reason for a weak signal.
> 
> Luckily I set my series link for "True Blood" on HBO East, so I set it to record on HBO West later. I just hope it will actually record this time. As for "Fringe" I'm out of luck and need to try to catch it online now. So can't wait to get TiVo back next year.


The Fringe is a repeat of the Season Premiere from last week .. so if you set "First Run" then you would not have gotten tonight's episode.


----------



## Jack_Skellington

Doug Brott said:


> The Fringe is a repeat of the Season Premiere from last week .. so if you set "First Run" then you would not have gotten tonight's episode.


Nope that's not it. I missed the Series Premiere, and had heard they were repeating it this Sunday. I didn't set a series link. I just set a one time recording of that specific showtime tonight. The HR-21 just decided it wasn't going to record it, even thought it said it was. In fact the stupid thing is still showing "Fringe" and "True Blood" in the To Do List for 7:00 PM.


----------



## harsh

wingrider01 said:


> There is no evidience that it will not, there is a line in the press release that states the pricing structure for this has not been determined as of yet.


That's where the TiVo SEC filing comes into play. Read it carefully.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> That's where the TiVo SEC filing comes into play. Read it carefully.


By saying that they have not determined pricing tells me that they haven't decided HOW much more to charge for the Tivos, not if they will charge more...


----------



## wingrider01

harsh said:


> The fees are made clear in the SEC filing: an additional $0.50 per household that uses the new software.


Isn't that the increase in cost that Directv has to pay Tivo? Have never seen any company not pass on that fee increase + a profit margin increase.


----------



## MX727

wingrider01 said:


> Isn't that the increase in cost that Directv has to pay Tivo? Have never seen any company not pass on that fee increase + a profit margin increase.


This presumes that D* has made this move just for the current customers. If, instead, they want to attract more customers from E* and cable who are familiar with TiVo, it may not fit into their plan if they charge more than the 50 cents for the service.


----------



## Syzygy

Jack_Skellington said:


> ... the HR-21 is not a reliable DVR. ... Luckily I set my series link for "True Blood" on HBO East, so I set it to record on HBO West later. I just hope it will actually record this time. As for "Fringe" I'm out of luck and need to try to catch it online now. So can't wait to get TiVo back next year.


Please don't believe that your experience is typical. You should make sure you get a replacement HR21. (If they want to make you pay, then I suggest getting a service contract and waiting a month.)

I've been a TiVo lover for 9 years and an HR21-100 user (and hater) for a month. Even with all my HR21's faults, I haven't noticed it failing to record a show that I've requested. *I know that others have*, and it may be the software after all, but still... why not see if it's the box?


----------



## spartanstew

Jack_Skellington said:


> Well tonight this HR-21 just missed two recordings for no reason at all.


Two month of flawless service and one night where it didn't record and you're willing to throw it all in (and go on a mini tirade)? If that was everyone's attitude, tivo would have been dead long ago.



Jack_Skellington said:


> In fact the stupid thing is still showing "Fringe" and "True Blood" in the To Do List for 7:00 PM.


How are you accessing your To Do List for events in the past?


----------



## Lee L

Well, if the past shows are still in there, it is a problem that has happened to a few people before. It has happened to me as well. I have even seen shows marked "Yesterday" in the TO DO. A Reboot will fix it, but of course, the shows are not there.


And Syzygy, just because you have not had a problem, does not mean they do not exist. Even DirecTV admits the box can screw up and not record things it is supposed to, otherwise, why do they have fixes for things like "stability" anmd recording robustness" in their software releases. I am willing beleive that there are people who have never had a problem, why marginalize your opinion by not beleiving or admitting that some people do?


----------



## boxster99t

spartanstew said:


> Two month of flawless service and one night where it didn't record and you're willing to throw it all in (and go on a mini tirade)? If that was everyone's attitude, tivo would have been dead long ago.
> 
> Tivo would have nothing to fear because like the original poster, I have never had my DirectvTivos miss a show either. But my HR21 has done it once or twice since I got it in March.
> 
> I can tell you that when I have an open tuner, I generally have my remaining standard definition DirectvTivo (a modified DSR 7000) record shows I really like just in case the HR 21 hiccups and doesn't.
> 
> Will this new Tivo be as reliable as the old ones? I don't know but I hope so. While I am generally satisfied with the HR 21, my plans to get a second and retire my DSR 7000 are on hold. I probably will wait to see what the second half of 2009 brings now.


----------



## bonscott87

boxster99t said:


> Tivo would have nothing to fear because like the original poster, I have never had my DirectvTivos miss a show either. But my HR21 has done it once or twice since I got it in March.
> 
> I can tell you that when I have an open tuner, I generally have my remaining standard definition DirectvTivo (a modified DSR 7000) record shows I really like just in case the HR 21 hiccups and doesn't.


But so now you are doing the same thing by saying "my XXXX hasn't had any problems so obviously they are all perfect and this stupid DirecTV XXXX is junk"

How one forgets a decade of Tivo problems documented at the Tivo Community Forum. DirecTivo's and Tivo in general have had all sorts of problems over the years and still do. You didn't, awesome. But how is your experience any different then people that have had no problems with their HR20/21 despite the fact it does have problems for others?

Come on people. Tivo had and has problems. HR20/21 had and has problems.
Tivo is not the second coming and the perfect DVR. It's just not. And neither is the DirecTV DVRs.
Who cares if *you* have had a perfect Tivo. That means nothing about the product as a whole or what a future product might be.

Period, end of story.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Sorry if this has already been covered, I can't really read through 1200+ posts .

What exactly is the point of this? That question is coming from a Tivo whore. I kept my HR10-250 til the last possible second and hated the HR20 just cuz it wasn't a Tivo.

But I'm wondering what the point of getting back in bed with Tivo is? DTV has spent a ton of money developing and deploying the HR20/HR21 DVRs. Sure it has bugs and its missing DLB and MRV for those that still are waiting for that.

Is DTV going to drop the HR2x platform? I'm sure its cheaper to license the Tivo platform then to develop a DVR in house.

I can see them doing a "standard HiDef DVR" + a "super duper networkable HiDef DVR", but then, I'd pick one platform and have the standard one be a feature subset. Having 2 completely different platforms? DTV support can barely handle this one.


----------



## Syzygy

Lee L said:


> ... Syzygy, just because you have not had a problem, does not mean they do not exist. Even DirecTV admits the box can screw up and not record things it is supposed to, otherwise, why do they have fixes for things like "stability" anmd recording robustness" in their software releases. I am willing beleive that there are people who have never had a problem, why marginalize your opinion by not beleiving or admitting that some people do?


Evidently, you didn't read my whole post. I clearly wrote, "*I know that others have" *[noticed it failing to record a show]. Why were you so quick to jump to an erroneous conclusion rather than reading the rest of my post?

As for fixes for things like "stability" -- that's a pet peeve of mine. As a software debugger and fixer, I would never have gotten away with telling my boss or even my co-workers that I had been working on the "stability" or "robustness" of the product without any further explanation. But that's all we users are entitled to know?


----------



## jdspencer

Has anyone heard the status of "better than DLB"?

Could this new DVR be it?


----------



## Syzygy

SledgeHammer said:


> Sorry if this has already been covered, I can't really read through 1200+ posts .
> 
> What exactly is the point of this? That question is coming from a Tivo whore. I kept my HR10-250 til the last possible second and hated the HR20 just cuz it wasn't a Tivo.
> 
> But I'm wondering what the point of getting back in bed with Tivo is? DTV has spent a ton of money developing and deploying the HR20/HR21 DVRs. Sure it has bugs and its missing DLB and MRV for those that still are waiting for that.
> 
> Is DTV going to drop the HR2x platform? I'm sure its cheaper to license the TiVo platform then to develop a DVR in house.
> 
> I can see them doing a "standard HiDef DVR" + a "super duper networkable HiDef DVR", but then, I'd pick one platform and have the standard one be a feature subset. Having 2 completely different platforms? DTV support can barely handle this one.


I totally agree, and I think you just might have answered your own question. The point, it seems to me, is to stop the internal bleeding that comes from having to support and trying to fix a hopelessly screwed-up project. As you suggest, license the Tivo platform and forget about the in-house DVR (after a suitable grace period).

After all this [needless] expenditure of time and money, evidently the parent company still thinks it makes sense to can the "DVR+" in favor of TiVo's "++DVR". To me, that shows how badly the HR2x software has failed -- and how little promise is seen in the possiblility of its being saved.

Software designers and writers understand very well that any large piece of code eventually reaches a point where it can no longer be fixed without breaking something else. That point is reached sooner if (1) the language is C or a variant thereof, (2) the design was flawed from the start, necessitating sweeping changes or kludgy workarounds, and/or (3) some of the programmers are incompetent.

BTW, I'm a TiVo whore too. I too kept my HR10-250 until the last possible moment, and I still hate the stupidity of my HR21. Furthermore, I still have my trusty SD-DTiVo. My wife wouldn't consider relinquishing it, and now I won't either -- even though it serves a 30" glass widescreen HDTV.


----------



## spartanstew

SledgeHammer said:


> Sorry if this has already been covered, I can't really read through 1200+ posts .
> 
> What exactly is the point of this? That question is coming from a Tivo whore. I kept my HR10-250 til the last possible second and hated the HR20 just cuz it wasn't a Tivo.
> 
> But I'm wondering what the point of getting back in bed with Tivo is? DTV has spent a ton of money developing and deploying the HR20/HR21 DVRs. Sure it has bugs and its missing DLB and MRV for those that still are waiting for that.
> 
> Is DTV going to drop the HR2x platform? I'm sure its cheaper to license the Tivo platform then to develop a DVR in house.
> 
> I can see them doing a "standard HiDef DVR" + a "super duper networkable HiDef DVR", but then, I'd pick one platform and have the standard one be a feature subset. Having 2 completely different platforms? DTV support can barely handle this one.


Well, it'll take 1200 posts to answer those questions. Nobody really knows for sure the whys or hows. If you want to get some ideas of what people THINK, you'll need to read all the posts.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Syzygy said:


> Software designers and writers understand very well that any large piece of code eventually reaches a point where it can no longer be fixed without breaking something else. That point is reached sooner if (1) the language is C or a variant thereof, (2) the design was flawed from the start, necessitating sweeping changes or kludgy workarounds, and/or (3) some of the programmers are incompetent.
> 
> BTW, I'm a TiVo whore too. I too kept my HR10-250 until the last possible moment, and I still hate the stupidity of my HR21. Furthermore, I still have my trusty SD-DTiVo. My wife wouldn't consider relinquishing it, and now I won't either -- even though it serves a 30" glass widescreen HDTV.


I'm in software and I have to disagree. When C and especially C++ was "en-vouge", programmers were a lot more clever and understood the theory behind things. With C# and .NET that is no longer the case. Everything is over engineered and nobody understands the theory behind things, nobody cares about performance anymore, etc. In fact, I mentioned performance issues to my manager about our software and was pretty much told to f*ck off and quit wasting time. "Performance improvements do not generate revenue" is what I was told. Another problem is that a lot of stuff is written overseas (India, Chile, etc) where programmers are not as skilled. The way they are taught over there (and my company has the same problem since we outsource 50% of our dev to India) is to crank out code as fast as humanly possible, ship it, THEN start testing and debugging.

Anyways #1, being a Tivo whore myself, I will admit that I find the live video window much more valuable then I did DLB. I used DLB *ALOT*. But the live video window in the guides & menus is a way more practical feature. Of course, having both is ideal, but between the two, I'll take the live video window.

I really don't think the HR20 is that bad of a platform, but I'd rather they stablize the platform rather then add eye candy features first.

Anyways #2, the only thing that can kill a project is when the developers stop caring. Thats kind of where we are at my company (and my last company as well).

Hard to say if thats the atmosphere at DTV.


----------



## harsh

SledgeHammer said:


> But I'm wondering what the point of getting back in bed with Tivo is? DTV has spent a ton of money developing and deploying the HR20/HR21 DVRs. Sure it has bugs and its missing DLB and MRV for those that still are waiting for that.


This week's winner for answering your own question in the same paragraph.

The supposition is that TiVo will succeed where DIRECTV has failed: to deliver a DVR that works reliably with all of the features that a DVR should have. DIRECTV seems to be trying to reinvent the SlingCatcher and TiVo knows a thing or two about DVRs.

No workarounds, no excuses.

DIRECTV is sustaining a heapin' helpin' of whoop-ass over the state of their HR2x series and this appears to be one way that they can address the issue. If TiVo is successful, DIRECTV and TiVo both win. If TiVo fails, DIRECTV doesn't look quite as inept (but gets slammed for betting the farm on a platform that apparently isn't up to the task).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say "heapin' helpin' of whoop-ass". That is a gross exaggeration of the effect that forum posters have on a company that size. 

Colorful, countrified prose it may be, but not a fair characterization of the state of DIRECTV's PR.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Wasn't the problem "back then" when we had Tivo that Tivo wanted to add all these features to the DTV DVRs and DirecTV kept telling them no? By the end of its run, the HR10-250 was primitive compared to the Standalone Tivos that Tivo had full control over.

Still, as good as Tivo is, they are still in a horrible financial situation which is odd. Had they not gotten this DTV deal, they'd be dead in a few years (didn't they also get a Cox deal?).


----------



## SledgeHammer

harsh said:


> This week's winner for answering your own question in the same paragraph.
> 
> The supposition is that TiVo will succeed where DIRECTV has failed: to deliver a DVR that works reliably with all of the features that a DVR should have. DIRECTV seems to be trying to reinvent the SlingCatcher and TiVo knows a thing or two about DVRs.
> 
> No workarounds, no excuses.
> 
> DIRECTV is sustaining a heapin' helpin' of whoop-ass over the state of their HR2x series and this appears to be one way that they can address the issue. If TiVo is successful, DIRECTV and TiVo both win. If TiVo fails, DIRECTV doesn't look quite as inept (but gets slammed for betting the farm on a platform that apparently isn't up to the task).


The Tivo had bugs too, the core features were pretty reliable though. The thing that made Tivo popular was that it was open to people hacking it and adding features, writing scripts, etc. That will not be the case this time around.


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> Wasn't the problem "back then" when we had Tivo that Tivo wanted to add all these features to the DTV DVRs and DirecTV kept telling them no? By the end of its run, the HR10-250 was primitive compared to the Standalone Tivos that Tivo had full control over.
> 
> Still, as good as Tivo is, they are still in a horrible financial situation which is odd. Had they not gotten this DTV deal, they'd be dead in a few years (didn't they also get a Cox deal?).


Not really .. TiVo wanted more money to add these features ..


----------



## wingrider01

harsh said:


> This week's winner for answering your own question in the same paragraph.
> 
> The supposition is that TiVo will succeed where DIRECTV has failed: to deliver a DVR that works reliably with all of the features that a DVR should have. DIRECTV seems to be trying to reinvent the SlingCatcher and TiVo knows a thing or two about DVRs.
> 
> No workarounds, no excuses.
> 
> DIRECTV is sustaining a heapin' helpin' of whoop-ass over the state of their HR2x series and this appears to be one way that they can address the issue. If TiVo is successful, DIRECTV and TiVo both win. If TiVo fails, DIRECTV doesn't look quite as inept (but gets slammed for betting the farm on a platform that apparently isn't up to the task).


given the issues I had with the HR10 - they did not have it then. have had a lot less issue with the later releases of the software for the HR2X series.

Go back to posts on the when the hr10 was just being released, made the issue that occurred with the HR2X series a walk in the park.

It boils down to opinion, bottom line. Got so sick and tired of the screams from the kids and wifwe about the Tivo restating in the middle of a show that when they finally replaced one of them I took it out to the field and dropped a couple of rounds of 00 buck in it, they explode nicely when this happens. Still have a couple of tivo based units in use, but in all cases they are secondary use boxes, only used if absolutely required.

Differnce of opinion here - I doubt that Directv is "betting the farm on the Tivo" since it is stated in their press release that their units will still be primary and the new tivo units will be offered as a alternate.


----------



## Flyrx7

This thread is like watching a train wreck in slow motion......I don't want to watch, but I can't seem to turn away either.

Are we really just going to theorize and pontificate for an entire year on this subject, speculating on one little press release?

:new_popco


----------



## SledgeHammer

Flyrx7 said:


> This thread is like watching a train wreck in slow motion......I don't want to watch, but I can't seem to turn away either.
> 
> Are we really just going to theorize and pontificate for an entire year on this subject, speculating on one little press release?
> 
> :new_popco


This suprises you? I guess you've never been in the CE forum where every Friday morning for the past year plus a mod just has to create a "CE anticipation thread" that gets filled with either "MRV - BRING IT!" or "DLB - BRING IT!" posts . Thats even more absurd then this thread.


----------



## mp11

davring said:


> Jack_Skellington said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well tonight this HR-21 just missed two recordings for no reason at all.
> 
> There was a reason for it not to record. More information is necessary to try and determine why.
> 
> 
> 
> More information wont necessarily help in determining the random acts the HR series is capable of delivering. Its just the nature of the beast. It is known to do things beyond explanation.
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

harsh said:


> a heapin' helpin' of whoop-ass
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

Flyrx7 said:


> Are we really just going to theorize and pontificate for an entire year on this subject, speculating on one little press release?
> 
> :new_popco


Why not? Its the biggest topic to come along in a very long time. Eat your popcorn.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> This week's winner for answering your own question in the same paragraph.
> 
> The supposition is that TiVo will succeed where DIRECTV has failed: to deliver a DVR that works reliably with all of the features that a DVR should have. DIRECTV seems to be trying to reinvent the SlingCatcher and TiVo knows a thing or two about DVRs.
> 
> No workarounds, no excuses.
> 
> DIRECTV is sustaining a heapin' helpin' of whoop-ass over the state of their HR2x series and this appears to be one way that they can address the issue. If TiVo is successful, DIRECTV and TiVo both win. If TiVo fails, DIRECTV doesn't look quite as inept (but gets slammed for betting the farm on a platform that apparently isn't up to the task).


Directv is bringing back Tivo for one reason... Additional revenue streams... They will charge a premium for the new Tivos, anyone who thinks they won't is nuts... Look at their hardware path they set out last year. They wanted to go to one piece of hardware. Thats a bad idea if you ask me. You need at least 2, (HR2x types, and a central Media box with clients type) so you can have an entry level price point to get any customers in, and then something that you position as a higher end piece, even if it isn't. Some customers always ask for whats best, and to them, most of the time, that means what costs more...



Doug Brott said:


> Not really .. TiVo wanted more money to add these features ..


And now they are going to be getting the more money on the new ones, so everyones happy!


----------



## loudo

If the new TIVO receiver isn't any better than the TIVO HR10-250 was, maybe the question should be, "How much will they pay us to migrate over to the new unit?" 

Sorry, but I like the HR-2X series.:gott: Except for the double buffer the HR10-250 had.


----------



## mp11

loudo said:


> If the new TIVO receiver isn't any better than the TIVO HR10-250 was, maybe the question should be, "How much will they pay us to migrate over to the new unit?"
> 
> Sorry, but I like the HR-2X series.:gott: Except for the double buffer the HR10-250 had.


The HR10-250 is now considered old school. Think more in terms of the Tivo Series 3 and Tivo HD. Why would they go backwards?


----------



## MX727

loudo said:


> If the new TIVO receiver isn't any better than the TIVO HR10-250 was, maybe the question should be, "How much will they pay us to migrate over to the new unit?"
> 
> Sorry, but I like the HR-2X series.:gott: Except for the double buffer the HR10-250 had.


Interesting take on the HR10-250. I just got my HR22 set up and still have the HR10 running next to it. Both boxes have the latest software from D*. In spite of what many refer to concerning the faster speed of the HR2* series, the HR10 is much faster at simple tasks, such as changing channels. Additionally, when pausing tonights football game at the same point, the HR10 has noticeably better resolution with both boxes set for 1080i.

I do like having more HD channels on the HR22, and with my setup now, I still have DLB from the HR10 for sports.


----------



## Jack_Skellington

spartanstew said:


> Two month of flawless service and one night where it didn't record and you're willing to throw it all in (and go on a mini tirade)? If that was everyone's attitude, tivo would have been dead long ago.
> 
> How are you accessing your To Do List for events in the past?


Absolutely I'm willing to throw it in. The main function of a DVR is to RECORD!!!! If it doesn't do that reliably, it is an utter failure. Like I said in my first post, I was a TiVo user for 5+ years. Do you know how many recordings my TiVo missed in that time? ZERO!!!! That's right, not a single missed recording in 5+ years. That's what I call a reliable DVR.

Guess what? I came home from work to find that this piece of junk DVR missed an entire days worth of recordings now. I am trying yet another reboot of this stupid thing to hope that it will stop missing recordings. The new HD TiVo can't come soon enough for me.


----------



## inkahauts

Jack_Skellington said:


> Absolutely I'm willing to throw it in. The main function of a DVR is to RECORD!!!! If it doesn't do that reliably, it is an utter failure. Like I said in my first post, I was a TiVo user for 5+ years. Do you know how many recordings my TiVo missed in that time? ZERO!!!! That's right, not a single missed recording in 5+ years. That's what I call a reliable DVR.
> 
> Guess what? I came home from work to find that this piece of junk DVR missed an entire days worth of recordings now. I am trying yet another reboot of this stupid thing to hope that it will stop missing recordings. The new HD TiVo can't come soon enough for me.


I missed recordings with my tivo, and in the last 18 months, my HR10-250 has missed more recordings than all 5 of my HR2x's... 3 to 2... so I think I'll take my HR2xs....


----------



## inkahauts

MX727 said:


> Interesting take on the HR10-250. I just got my HR22 set up and still have the HR10 running next to it. Both boxes have the latest software from D*. In spite of what many refer to concerning the faster speed of the HR2* series, the HR10 is much faster at simple tasks, such as changing channels. Additionally, when pausing tonights football game at the same point, the HR10 has noticeably better resolution with both boxes set for 1080i.
> 
> I do like having more HD channels on the HR22, and with my setup now, I still have DLB from the HR10 for sports.


Interesting... What channel are you watching the game on on the HR22... And assuming you have them plugged into different inputs on your tv, have you checked all the settings for each imput? Because you should definetly see a difference in ESPN on 74 vs. 206... The channels in the 70's are not as well compressed and don't have the same amount of detail, and there is a huge difference on my tv... The HR10 is great for OTA, but no better than my HR2 for me..


----------



## spartanstew

Jack_Skellington said:


> Absolutely I'm willing to throw it in. The main function of a DVR is to RECORD!!!! If it doesn't do that reliably, it is an utter failure. Like I said in my first post, I was a TiVo user for 5+ years. Do you know how many recordings my TiVo missed in that time? ZERO!!!! That's right, not a single missed recording in 5+ years. That's what I call a reliable DVR.
> 
> Guess what? I came home from work to find that this piece of junk DVR missed an entire days worth of recordings now. I am trying yet another reboot of this stupid thing to hope that it will stop missing recordings. The new HD TiVo can't come soon enough for me.


Funny how you didn't address either of my two main points. TiVo's might have been perfect for you, but they weren't for everyone. If everyone threw out their DVR after the first instances of missed recordings, TiVo wouldn't be in existence (then what would you do?). For the record, I didn't miss many recordings on my TiVo (maybe 20 in 7 years) and haven't missed any on either of my 3 HR2X's. Even so, I certainly wouldn't let a DVR get me upset. I can't wait to watch you explode when the new units with tivo have some issues. That'll be fun.

Here's the second thing you ignored: How are you accessing your todo list for events in the past?


----------



## harsh

Stuart Sweet said:


> Colorful, countrified prose it may be, but not a fair characterization of the state of DIRECTV's PR.


I was speaking only of the buzz surrounding the HR2x DVR. If you read customer reviews a BB (all within two weeks old) and amazon.com, you'll get the idea that there are some problems (whether real or perceived). If there weren't a few major problems, it wouldn't be such a polarizing issue.


----------



## MX727

inkahauts said:


> Interesting... What channel are you watching the game on on the HR22... And assuming you have them plugged into different inputs on your tv, have you checked all the settings for each imput? Because you should definetly see a difference in ESPN on 74 vs. 206... The channels in the 70's are not as well compressed and don't have the same amount of detail, and there is a huge difference on my tv... The HR10 is great for OTA, but no better than my HR2 for me..


They were both on 73. I'll try the HR22 on 206. I just noticed more detail in the field and on the jerseys.

The OTA issue is pretty big. While I get the main locals on the HR22, I don't get the subs, and for the two PBS outlets and the other 3 independents, I lose nearly 10 HD locals. Sure, I can get the AM-21, but it is apparent that D* didn't consider all the sub channels when they elected to remove the OTA. I would venture that almost every single DMA has missing HD channels without OTA, which means just about everyone could use the AM-21.


----------



## inkahauts

MX727 said:


> They were both on 73. I'll try the HR22 on 206. I just noticed more detail in the field and on the jerseys.
> 
> The OTA issue is pretty big. While I get the main locals on the HR22, I don't get the subs, and for the two PBS outlets and the other 3 independents, I lose nearly 10 HD locals. Sure, I can get the AM-21, but it is apparent that D* didn't consider all the sub channels when they elected to remove the OTA. I would venture that almost every single DMA has missing HD channels without OTA, which means just about everyone could use the AM-21.


Very few people care about the sub channels as a hole... I say this because very few people understand them anyway. The AM-21 has, from what people who have one say, a better tuner than the HR20's with it built in, so actually, I'd say they did a good thing all in all by leaving it out. With that said, If I where you, I'd probably keep my HR10-250 up and running just for subchannels... If you watch them a lot. It is entirely possible by the way, that your locals will look better off of sat than OTA if your stations use a lot of subchannels, and Directv gets a fiber feed from the station, rather than grabbing it OTA... And the Sat channels on an HR22 for your locals will take less Hard Drive than OTA signals. When the new Tivos come out, I expect them to function picture quality wise, identically to the HR2X's.... At some point, I have a feeling we will see hardware capable of converting everythign to any 1080P/X format... I wouldn't be surprised if that hits on Directv DVRs shortly before the new Tivos come out with it as well...


----------



## Ken S

inkahauts said:


> Very few people care about the sub channels as a hole... I say this because very few people understand them anyway. The AM-21 has, from what people who have one say, a better tuner than the HR20's with it built in, so actually, I'd say they did a good thing all in all by leaving it out. With that said, If I where you, I'd probably keep my HR10-250 up and running just for subchannels... If you watch them a lot. It is entirely possible by the way, that your locals will look better off of sat than OTA if your stations use a lot of subchannels, and Directv gets a fiber feed from the station, rather than grabbing it OTA... And the Sat channels on an HR22 for your locals will take less Hard Drive than OTA signals. When the new Tivos come out, I expect them to function picture quality wise, identically to the HR2X's.... At some point, I have a feeling we will see hardware capable of converting everythign to any 1080P/X format... I wouldn't be surprised if that hits on Directv DVRs shortly before the new Tivos come out with it as well...


Very few people care about the subchannels now because few know of them. Come next year and many people are receiving them with OTA or cable and things may be different. There is every reason to believe that local channels will being programming the subs more and more in an effort to raise viewership.


----------



## Jack_Skellington

spartanstew said:


> Funny how you didn't address either of my two main points. TiVo's might have been perfect for you, but they weren't for everyone. If everyone threw out their DVR after the first instances of missed recordings, TiVo wouldn't be in existence (then what would you do?). For the record, I didn't miss many recordings on my TiVo (maybe 20 in 7 years) and haven't missed any on either of my 3 HR2X's. Even so, I certainly wouldn't let a DVR get me upset. I can't wait to watch you explode when the new units with tivo have some issues. That'll be fun.
> 
> Here's the second thing you ignored: How are you accessing your todo list for events in the past?


I wasn't doing anything special to see the events in the past. They were just showing in the To Do List on their own.

I am not ignoring anything. I am simply sharing my experiences. With the experiences I've had, I much prefer TiVo to DirecTV's DVR. The reliability issue alone is enough for me to say that. However there are many features I miss from the TiVo that I can't wait to have back. Such as DLB, WishLists (way better searches than the HR-21), Suggestions, TiVo Live Guide, and no picture in list.


----------



## ATARI

Flyrx7 said:


> This thread is like watching a train wreck in slow motion......I don't want to watch, but I can't seem to turn away either.
> 
> Are we really just going to theorize and pontificate for an entire year on this subject, speculating on one little press release?
> 
> :new_popco


YES!


----------



## Doug Brott

Jack_Skellington said:


> ... However there are many features I miss from the TiVo that I can't wait to have back. Such as DLB, WishLists (way better searches than the HR-21), Suggestions, TiVo Live Guide, and no picture in list.


-) Nothing to say about DLB at this time
-) WishLists .. You can use AutoRecord which has a unique boolean search feature
-) Suggestions .. You probably won't see this, but you never know
-) TiVo Live Guide - Not sure here, but I haven't heard anything
-) PIG - While I actually would prefer a way to turn it off .. a straw poll here seemed to indicate that > 75% of folks want it to always be on .. Can't fight the numbers .. besides, from all indications, there would be a PIG in any new TiVo anyway. (PIG = Picture in Graphics)


----------



## Lee L

My experience with the HR10 was that I did miss a few recordings and I remember reading others that did as well. However, I experience many more missed recordings with the HR2x receivers. Another key differrence is that when the HR10 would screw up it was almost always related to guide data and almost always would affect multiple people with the same show at the same time, etc. You can go check threads at TCF to confirm this. You could count on the fact that if something showed up in the TO DO list, it would show up watchable in the Now Playing list or you would have a reason why in Hostory, somethign the HR2x has still not quite mastered.


The HR20 does have guide data issue that affect many people, but what it also has are random lockups and other glitches like blank or gray recordings on a scale not seen with the HR10 series. 

In fact, the HR10 was very reliable until DirecTV changed their data stream which caused lockups.


----------



## ATARI

MX727 said:


> Interesting take on the HR10-250. I just got my HR22 set up and still have the HR10 running next to it. Both boxes have the latest software from D*. In spite of what many refer to concerning the faster speed of the HR2* series, the HR10 is much faster at simple tasks, such as changing channels. Additionally, when pausing tonights football game at the same point, the HR10 has noticeably better resolution with both boxes set for 1080i.
> 
> I do like having more HD channels on the HR22, and with my setup now, I still have DLB from the HR10 for sports.


The best of both worlds.

Now if D* can just put it all together in one box...


----------



## bonscott87

MX727 said:


> They were both on 73. I'll try the HR22 on 206. I just noticed more detail in the field and on the jerseys.


Why are you still watching the channels in the 70s? They were replaced with MPEG4 versions almost 2 months ago now and they are MUCH better in terms of picture quality. Plus the 70s will but shut down soon enough.


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:
 

> -) PIG - While I actually would prefer a way to turn it off .. a straw poll here seemed to indicate that > 75% of folks want it to always be on .. Can't fight the numbers .. besides, from all indications, there would be a PIG in any new TiVo anyway. (PIG = Picture in Graphics)


If I had to bet on one thing to be in this new HD DirecTivo it would be a PIG. Why? Because practically every receiver and DVR on the planet has the PIG, it's a standard feature, except the Tivo. Plus the Comcast Tivo has it. Thus one would expect that to continue on the new DirecTivo.

Love it or hate it, the PIG is considered a standard feature by pretty much everyone.


----------



## harsh

bonscott87 said:


> Why are you still watching the channels in the 70s? They were replaced with MPEG4 versions almost 2 months ago now and they are MUCH better in terms of picture quality.


Many are noting problems that look a lot like the encoders aren't able to keep up on 206. That's why they are watching 73.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> Many are noting problems that look a lot like the encoders aren't able to keep up on 206. That's why they are watching 73.


huh? Where have you seen that?


----------



## paulman182

bonscott87 said:


> If I had to bet on one thing to be in this new HD DirecTivo it would be a PIG. Why? Because practically every receiver and DVR on the planet has the PIG, it's a standard feature, except the Tivo. Plus the Comcast Tivo has it. Thus one would expect that to continue on the new DirecTivo.
> 
> Love it or hate it, the PIG is considered a standard feature by pretty much everyone.


And since we really know nothing about the design of the upcoming DirecTiVo, right now it's a PIG in a POKE!:lol:


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> huh? Where have you seen that?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138227&highlight=ESPN+206


----------



## tonyd79

harsh said:


> Many are noting problems that look a lot like the encoders aren't able to keep up on 206. That's why they are watching 73.


I see those problems but they are just minor hiccups every few minutes compared to consistent worse PQ on the MPEG2 channels, so I don't mind them.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> Many are noting problems that look a lot like the encoders aren't able to keep up on 206. That's why they are watching 73.





harsh said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138227&highlight=ESPN+206


Ah .. so this was an idea that you put forth in the other thread that started this line of thinking .. I get it now.

Nonetheless, an MPEG-4 TiVo would still be subject to the same artifacts .. I've not seen this when I've watched ESPN so I doubt it's as widespread as you make it out to be.

Do you even have an HR2x?


----------



## Citivas

Jack_Skellington said:


> I wasn't doing anything special to see the events in the past. They were just showing in the To Do List on their own.


I assume you mean the History sub-screen under the To Do list. They don't appear in the regular to-do list. Nonetheless, the history feature is very useful...


----------



## tkrandall

inkahauts said:


> It is entirely possible by the way, that your locals will look better off of sat than OTA if your stations use a lot of subchannels, and Directv gets a fiber feed from the station, rather than grabbing it OTA...


A couple of questions on that point.

1) How many markets/stations does DirecTV actually use a "fiber" feed versus a OTA pickup? Maybe major stations in major markets like Atlanta?

2) Even if the station provides a fiber feed, what is to say the fiber feed is not the same post-compressed-for-the-sub channel(s) version? Would the station even want to allow a higher quality version going out than they provide OTA? Are they allowed to by their network agreements?


----------



## MX727

bonscott87 said:


> Why are you still watching the channels in the 70s? They were replaced with MPEG4 versions almost 2 months ago now and they are MUCH better in terms of picture quality. Plus the 70s will but shut down soon enough.


You missed the part where I said I just got the HR22 setup. Yesterday. Have to watch the 70s on the HR10. After I read inkhauts reply, I deleted the 70s from the HR22's.


----------



## Jhon69

paulman182 said:


> And since we really know nothing about the design of the upcoming DirecTiVo, right now it's a PIG in a POKE!:lol:


All we can do now is dream...Hmmm.......

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2329290,00.asp


----------



## Steve Robertson

What do people think of them offering a 4 tuner solution along with 1080p?


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve Robertson said:


> What do people think of them offering a 4 tuner solution along with 1080p?


With QLB?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Hey, as long as we're making stuff up, how about 8 168-hour buffers so you can rewind to anything on those 8 channels up to a week back? Hey, it's your pipe dream, I'm just hitching a ride :lol:


----------



## 430970

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hey, as long as we're making stuff up, how about 8 168-hour buffers so you can rewind to anything on those 8 channels up to a week back? Hey, it's your pipe dream, I'm just hitching a ride :lol:


At some point you're basically talking about everything becoming "on demand". I view DVRs as either a stop-gap solution, or something that will end up with so much disk space + tuners that it will basically function as "on demand" for most people.

There are still occasions when a third tuner would be useful for me. I've never been in a situation yet where I'd need a fourth, but why not. 4 tuners, couple of terabytes of disk (or maybe 10TB since that'll be $100 in a few years) and some MRV and you've got your whole-house on-demand viewing platform.

I'd much rather have one mega-DVR and a bunch of diskless viewing receivers than a bunch of DVRs


----------



## wingrider01

jcricket said:


> At some point you're basically talking about everything becoming "on demand". I view DVRs as either a stop-gap solution, or something that will end up with so much disk space + tuners that it will basically function as "on demand" for most people.
> 
> There are still occasions when a third tuner would be useful for me. I've never been in a situation yet where I'd need a fourth, but why not. 4 tuners, couple of terabytes of disk (or maybe 10TB since that'll be $100 in a few years) and some MRV and you've got your whole-house on-demand viewing platform.
> 
> I'd much rather have one mega-DVR and a bunch of diskless viewing receivers than a bunch of DVRs


You have just described my HDPC, but only have 3 tuners - no more slots for a 4th


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hey, as long as we're making stuff up, how about 8 168-hour buffers so you can rewind to anything on those 8 channels up to a week back? Hey, it's your pipe dream, I'm just hitching a ride :lol:


Will this be in the next frimware release?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yeah, it will be downloaded into your R10 overnight. Make sure you have the phone line plugged in. (we need a smiley around here for sarcasm)


----------



## dennisj00

jcricket said:


> I'd much rather have one mega-DVR and a bunch of diskless viewing receivers than a bunch of DVRs


The problem with the mega-DVR is you either pay through the nose for redundancy (for TV shows?) or one day it's gone!

For TV shows, I'd rather have multiple DVRs with MRV that I can move (YES) or stream (ugh) programs between units.


----------



## tlrowley

Lee L said:


> You could count on the fact that if something showed up in the TO DO list, it would show up watchable in the Now Playing list or you would have a reason why in History, somethign the HR2x has still not quite mastered.


This is what sums up my feelings, exactly. I can't count on something that shows up in my HR2x ToDo list actually recording, nor can I find a useful reason why it didn't record. I'm not talking about black/grey recordings, either. There is an on-going bug with adding padding to the end of a recording doesn't show up as a conflict in the ToDo list. Then, when the program that was listed as going to be recorded isn't recorded, the only entry in the history is "this showing is over". No hints as to why it didn't record - that's left as an exercise for the viewer. The history on the HR2x is absolutely useless, IMO.

I can deal with the UI differences, and I really do like the 2-button-press recordings, but I hate the lack of DLB, and don't get me started on the 50 SL limit.

I have a series 3 Tivo simply for OTA, which constitutes most of our viewing. I also have an HR10 still in use. They're not perfect, but they don't tick me off nearly as much as the HR20/HR21 that I use for MPEG-4.


----------



## slma0092

Doug Brott said:


> -) Nothing to say about DLB at this time
> -) WishLists .. You can use AutoRecord which has a unique search[/URL] feature
> -) Suggestions .. You probably won't see this, but you never know
> -) TiVo Live Guide - Not sure here, but I haven't heard anything
> -) PIG - While I actually would prefer a way to turn it off .. a straw poll here seemed to indicate that > 75% of folks want it to always be on .. Can't fight the numbers .. besides, from all indications, there would be a PIG in any new TiVo anyway. (PIG = Picture in Graphics)


-) WishLists are superior & easier to do for the majority

-) IF we do not see Suggestions in this new Tivo, then this is a neutered machine, as WishLists, Suggestions & DLB are what seperates Tivo from the HR-2x

Where the HR-2x is a hard drive based VCR, Tivo having those 3 FEATURES makes it more than a hard drive VCR because saves info nicely & Suggestions gives you little suprises that record stuff based on what you rate.

ALSO - BUILT-IN - DUAL OTA TUNERS .................................................... THE LATEST GENERATION .... NOT OLD ONES THEY PICK UP FOR PENNIES

IF DIRECTV (with the EX-MOD influence neuters it) then it proves the customers means nothing & they will just give us half a machine, not a full one.


----------



## Doug Brott

slma0092 said:


> IF DIRECTV (with the EX-MOD influence neuters it) then it proves the customers means nothing & they will just give us half a machine, not a full one.


Uh .. Earl works for DIRECTV .. TiVo will be developing the software for the TiVo receiver .. I'm not sure how your comment applies.


----------



## Doug Brott

slma0092 said:


> ALSO - BUILT-IN - DUAL OTA TUNERS .................................................... THE LATEST GENERATION .... NOT OLD ONES THEY PICK UP FOR PENNIES


This is unlikely as the most likely thing to happen is that TiVo will use the HR2x platform and the TiVo software .. which means for OTA, the most likely scenario will be the AM21. We'll know more whenever the details start trickling out.


----------



## mp11

slma0092 said:


> -)
> ALSO - BUILT-IN - DUAL OTA TUNERS .................................................... THE LATEST GENERATION .... NOT OLD ONES THEY PICK UP FOR PENNIES
> 
> Ditto. No OTA...no dice for me. And no...the AM21 is *NOT* the OTA answer. I know from personal experience what kind of performance comes out of the AM21.  If they're gonna fix this thing, then lets do it right!


----------



## 430970

dennisj00 said:


> The problem with the mega-DVR is you either pay through the nose for redundancy (for TV shows?) or one day it's gone!
> 
> For TV shows, I'd rather have multiple DVRs with MRV that I can move (YES) or stream (ugh) programs between units.


It's still gone in most situations with your multiple DVR situation. If you're recording the same thing everywhere (not necessary with MRV, but still people might do it) you might get redundancy, but otherwise you lose a piece of your recordings if one DVR fails. Plus you've introduced more hard drives throughout the house, etc.

You only "pay through the nose" now because mega hard drives aren't that cheap. We're rapidly approaching the point where you'll be able to get a couple of terabytes for under $100. How hard would it be to throw in some pretty basic RAID (mirroring only). Two 1 TB drives in a RAID configuration, and then no-hard drive remote receivers (cheaper for the mfr) with MRV/streaming would work great for pretty much anyone (except those of us here, who would insist on a petabyte of storage with mirroring and striping).

Again, the other option is the network-based DVR. Where there's a cloud-DVR at your TV provider where all your recordings go, and they handle the redundancy, like any data center does. Or everything is simply on-demand after it's shown.


----------



## Sixto

Hmm. You guys still discussing this stuff ... 

Be back at CES ... 01/08/09 ...


----------



## andunn27

I really didn't feel like reading through the 50 some pages of this thread... Does anyone know if Tivo will either continue to support their SD Directivo's with future software updates (I know the latest update was 6.4a) or release a new SD Tivo?


----------



## inkahauts

andunn27 said:


> I really didn't feel like reading through the 50 some pages of this thread... Does anyone know if Tivo will either continue to support their SD Directivo's with future software updates (I know the latest update was 6.4a) or release a new SD Tivo?


You will not see Directv ever release an SD Tivo again... In all likely hood, you will never see Directv release a non HD box ever again period... Even the new R22 is rumored to be upgradeable to HD....

Software updates? Yeah, you could see a few here and there, but don't ever expect them to have all the features of a standalone, much less the new DTivo that will be coming out in a few eons...


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> I've not seen this when I've watched ESPN so I doubt it's as widespread as you make it out to be.


Clearly the problem exists and its impact is not negible.

There are at least four threads here at DBSTalk over the past few weeks specifically about the ESPN MPEG4 issue.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=139705&highlight=espn+206

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138227&highlight=espn+206

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138671&highlight=espn+206

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138164&highlight=espn+206

You are correct that this has nothing to do with TiVo, but it question came up.


----------



## carl6

slma0092 said:


> IF we do not see Suggestions in this new Tivo, then this is a neutered machine, as WishLists, Suggestions & DLB are what seperates Tivo from the HR-2x


Turning suggestions off was the very first thing I did when I got a Tivo. Most useless function in the world. Wishlists to me are no more or less functional than what the HR2x offers. On those two points I'll agree to respect your opinion if you will do the same in reverse.

DLB - no one knows if that will, or will not, be present on the new DirecTivo. I've seen well founded speculation both ways.

Bottom line is, until the product is released, I would not expect to see, or not see, any particular feature or capability.

Carl


----------



## Flyrx7

If there isn't DLB on the Tivo, I'll give up the whole thing. After all, what's a Tivo without DLB. Seriously....if Directv doesn't come out with DLB, w/ or w/o Tivo, then I'm giving up TV altogether. Nothing on anymore anyway but new versions of old stuff.

Hard to believe I spend what I do for what I get.......


----------



## Lee L

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hey, as long as we're making stuff up, how about 8 168-hour buffers so you can rewind to anything on those 8 channels up to a week back? Hey, it's your pipe dream, I'm just hitching a ride :lol:


The original DishPlayer actually had a paragraph in the manual warning that even though the current channel would be buffered and you could rewind, that all the other channels continued as normal and could not be rewound.


----------



## Jack_Skellington

Citivas said:


> I assume you mean the History sub-screen under the To Do list. They don't appear in the regular to-do list. Nonetheless, the history feature is very useful...


No, not the history. The programs were showing in the To Do List. I know the difference between the To Do List and history.



slma0092 said:


> -) WishLists are superior & easier to do for the majority
> 
> -) IF we do not see Suggestions in this new Tivo, then this is a neutered machine, as WishLists, Suggestions & DLB are what seperates Tivo from the HR-2x


Yes, you are right. My Auto Record Wishlists on my TiVo were much better at recording programs than the searches on the HR-21. The biggest reason for that, is I was able to manually edit the Channels I Receive list on the TiVo in order for it to only search the channels I wanted it to. I shouldn't have to program codes that can only be found online into my searches to try get the same results.


----------



## loudo

Sixto said:


> Hmm. You guys still discussing this stuff ...
> 
> Be back at CES ... 01/08/09 ...


I am anxious to hear what will come out of CES, in January. Should be interesting.


----------



## loudo

harsh said:


> Clearly the problem exists and its impact is not negible.
> 
> There are at least four threads here at DBSTalk over the past few weeks specifically about the ESPN MPEG4 issue.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=139705&highlight=espn+206
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138227&highlight=espn+206
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138671&highlight=espn+206
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138164&highlight=espn+206
> 
> You are correct that this has nothing to do with TiVo, but it question came up.


I wonder if it has anything to do with individual dish alignment. I have watched ESPN a lot in the past few weeks and never noticed any problems.


----------



## DarinC

mp11 said:


> And no...the AM21 is *NOT* the OTA answer. I know from personal experience what kind of performance comes out of the AM21.


I don't follow you here. While I agree that the AM21 is a kludgy solution, I certainly don't have any problems with its performance. I get better signals with it than I do with the tuners in my HR10 (though both are acceptable).


----------



## carl6

Jack_Skellington said:


> The biggest reason for that, is I was able to manually edit the Channels I Receive list on the TiVo in order for it to only search the channels I wanted it to.


Yes, that would be a very nice feature indeed.


----------



## Jhon69

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yeah, it will be downloaded into your R10 overnight. Make sure you have the phone line plugged in. (we need a smiley around here for sarcasm)


I thought this was it. or or:up_to_som


----------



## Jhon69

Yes, you are right. My Auto Record Wishlists on my TiVo were much better at recording programs than the searches on the HR-21. The biggest reason for that, is I was able to manually edit the Channels I Receive list on the TiVo in order for it to only search the channels I wanted it to. I shouldn't have to program codes that can only be found online into my searches to try get the same results.[/QUOTE]

Yes I do enjoy this on my HR10-250.


----------



## mp11

DarinC said:


> I don't follow you here. While I agree that the AM21 is a kludgy solution, I certainly don't have any problems with its performance. I get better signals with it than I do with the tuners in my HR10 (though both are acceptable).


Its been documented many times about how sluggish the AM21 is. Bottom line is people dont want an extra box with extra cables in the mix when its not necessary. The AM21 is a crude step backwards IMHO.


----------



## DarinC

I understand the extra box issue, it the "sluggishness" that I don't understand. It's just a tuner. I haven't noticed any channel changing issues with it. If you're talking about playback sluggishness, that should be a problem with the HR21, not the AM21.


----------



## mp11

DarinC said:


> I understand the extra box issue, it the "sluggishness" that I don't understand. It's just a tuner. I haven't noticed any channel changing issues with it. If you're talking about playback sluggishness, that should be a problem with the HR21, not the AM21.


Well one of the problems is FFing a prerecorded OTA program. Pressing the button numerous times before it engages. I've seen it take 25-30 seconds to get to "3". Doesnt happen on satellite channels. Hence why I believe its the AM21 as many others also believe.


----------



## DarinC

mp11 said:


> Well one of the problems is FFing a prerecorded OTA program. Pressing the button numerous times before it engages. I've seen it take 25-30 seconds to get to "3". Doesnt happen on satellite channels. Hence why I believe its the AM21 as many others also believe.


I'm not suggesting the problem doesn't exist, just that it seems much more likely that the problem is with the HR21. If the channel was properly tuned, and the MPEG stream made it intact to the HR21 (which it apparently did if you can play it back) that sounds more like a problem with the HR21.


----------



## Juanus

I personally like the HR-21. Sure it has its quirks, but so did the Tivo boxes. People seem to have selective memory when it comes to some of the problems that those Tivo boxes had.

I do have to say that I do like how the Tivo formatted the Live Guide better. the rest of it is just accepting change. Thats my two cents. (pun intended)


----------



## bonscott87

DarinC said:


> I'm not suggesting the problem doesn't exist, just that it seems much more likely that the problem is with the HR21. If the channel was properly tuned, and the MPEG stream made it intact to the HR21 (which it apparently did if you can play it back) that sounds more like a problem with the HR21.


I would have to agree since the AM21 has nothing to do with playback of a recording, OTA or otherwise. You can completely unplug the AM21 and play back any recorded OTA programs.


----------



## mp11

OK I guess I just dont understand why it does that only on OTA recorded programs. Guess I meed to call Directv.


----------



## Phil21

IIRC...

OTA programs take up much more space on the drive. This is due to it needing internal encoding, vs. using the direct streams off of DirecTV. Also, it's likely mpeg2 at a higher bitrate than directv's usual HD broadcasts?

Sorry.. kind of talking off the cuff, but back when I was looking into this in the HDTivo days it was something akin to that.

May explain why only OTA programs are "slow" - simply more data is being read on the hard drive vs. the other stuff.

I know my non-HD DVR's are leaps and bounds faster than my HD DVR's - the non-HD DVR's are what I think a DVR "should be" for speed  I chalk it up to the much higher cpu and I/O requirements of HD.


----------



## Doug Brott

Phil21 said:


> OTA programs take up much more space on the drive. This is due to it needing internal encoding, vs. using the direct streams off of DirecTV. Also, it's likely mpeg2 at a higher bitrate than directv's usual HD broadcasts?


MPEG4 compresses better than MPEG2 .. The HR21 does no encoding or transcoding of the data streams, just stores either the Sat MPEG2, Sat MPEG4 or OTA MPEG2 directly to the HDD. I would assume that the new TiVo would do the same as there is no benefit to doing it any other way.

But yes, Sat MPEG4 HD takes up less HDD than OTA MPEG2 HD.


----------



## Phil21

Thanks Doug  Makes complete sense.

I believe I was thinking of the old tivo's that would do OTA SD perhaps for the "encodes" stuff? Either that or my memory is completely shot!


----------



## inkahauts

mp11 said:


> slma0092 said:
> 
> 
> 
> -)
> ALSO - BUILT-IN - DUAL OTA TUNERS .................................................... THE LATEST GENERATION .... NOT OLD ONES THEY PICK UP FOR PENNIES
> 
> Ditto. No OTA...no dice for me. And no...the AM21 is *NOT* the OTA answer. I know from personal experience what kind of performance comes out of the AM21.  If they're gonna fix this thing, then lets do it right!
> 
> 
> 
> I actually like it that way... I'd rather keep them separate, because they are better tuners when on the outside
> 
> 
> 
> Flyrx7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there isn't DLB on the Tivo, I'll give up the whole thing. After all, what's a Tivo without DLB. Seriously....if Directv doesn't come out with DLB, w/ or w/o Tivo, then I'm giving up TV altogether. Nothing on anymore anyway but new versions of old stuff.
> 
> Hard to believe I spend what I do for what I get.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Curios... How did you survive before DVR's? VCR's? How many of those had DLB? And how much did you spend to get your first VCR, and what was the quality of picture and channels it got, and so on compared with ANY DVR today? Seriously, chuck the whole thing because it doesn't have DLB?
> 
> 
> 
> Jack_Skellington said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you are right. My Auto Record Wishlists on my TiVo were much better at recording programs than the searches on the HR-21. The biggest reason for that, is I was able to manually edit the Channels I Receive list on the TiVo in order for it to only search the channels I wanted it to. I shouldn't have to program codes that can only be found online into my searches to try get the same results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The HR2 is far superior for me... but thats because I use boolean search words, which by the way, allow me to go one step above and beyond CIG and select which channel I prefer my sports teams to be recorded on... However, I agree.. the gui needs to be changed so that anyone can use it, and I'm sure at some point they will...
Click to expand...


----------



## loudo

If the new DirecTV/TIVO unit had a built in OTA tuner, even as a option, that would win me over.


----------



## CJTE

Jhon69 said:


> CJTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because the software will be on DirecTV's HD DVR broadband-enabled platform, doesnt mean it'll be on any product thats currently out, or a product thats Developed by DirecTV. It'll be a product that fits into their HDDVR line. And I beleive I commented that exclusively, as a matter-of-fact, I did.
> "DirecTV and Tivo will work together to dev Tivo software that will fit on DirecTVs broadband-enabled HDDVR platform. *So they'll work together on software that'll fit on internet-capable boxes*, therefore, landline calls probably wont be a problem"
> 
> 
> 
> So the HRxxs and R22 isn't considered internet capable?.
Click to expand...

Not what I said. I said that the Tivo software will be on boxes that are internet capable as well. Thats what the statement says.


----------



## harsh

CJTE said:


> Not what I said. I said that the Tivo software will be on boxes that are internet capable as well. Thats what the statement says.


Read the statement carefully.


DIRECTV PR said:


> Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo(R) service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform.


The key word being "DIRECTV's" (possessive) indicating that it will be DIRECTV's platform, not TiVo's or anyone else's.


----------



## DarinC

inkahauts said:


> However, I agree.. the gui needs to be changed so that anyone can use it, and I'm sure at some point they will...


When it comes to the HR2x, everyone keeps saying "one day....". The thing has been out for two years. For many CE products, two years is EOL. How much time do they need to get this up to the level TiVo was five years ago?



harsh said:


> The key word being "DIRECTV's" (possessive) indicating that it will be DIRECTV's platform, not TiVo's or anyone else's.


I think many are taking that far too literally. It may very well end up on the exact same hardware as the current HR2x products. But I don't believe the word "platform" _necessarily _describes any specific piece of hardware. The current HR2x line comprises several different configurations by several different manufacturers. TiVo _could_ roll out a whole new box that still meets certain specs for "DirecTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform."

Everything I've read indicates that at the point of that press release, there were still many unknowns as to what exactly the new TiVo will be. "Platform" _can_ be a fairly generic term. Seems kind of fruitless to try to decipher meaning from phrases that may be worded vaguely specifically because not everything is finalized yet .


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> The current HR2x line comprises several different configurations by several different manufacturers. TiVo _could_ roll out a whole new box that still meets certain specs for "DirecTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform."


I predict that you're wrong. You use the term "line" instead of "platform".

You have to take the sentence as a whole and in context with the rest of the release that speaks to a non-exclusive agreement. The non-exclusive part tells us that DIRECTV isn't limited to using the TiVo software. It isn't reasonable to assume that DIRECTV is going to allow TiVo to independently offer their own DIRECTV HD DVR.

Can you imagine the hairball if TiVo tried to support a DIRECTV receiver along with all of the things that might be wrong outside of the receiver itself?


----------



## Jhon69

Sure hope that Tivo uses the "Down Arrow" to switch tuners on the New DirecTivo.


----------



## rahlquist

Jhon69 said:


> Sure hope that Tivo uses the "Down Arrow" to switch tuners on the New DirecTivo.


+1 I soo miss that function. Of course it will have more meaning if DLB comes with it


----------



## Flyrx7

Flyrx7 said:


> If there isn't DLB on the Tivo, I'll give up the whole thing. After all, what's a Tivo without DLB. Seriously....if Directv doesn't come out with DLB, w/ or w/o Tivo, then I'm giving up TV altogether. Nothing on anymore anyway but new versions of old stuff.
> Hard to believe I spend what I do for what I get.......





inkahauts said:


> Curios... How did you survive before DVR's? VCR's? How many of those had DLB? And how much did you spend to get your first VCR, and what was the quality of picture and channels it got, and so on compared with ANY DVR today? Seriously, chuck the whole thing because it doesn't have DLB?


How about if you were told you had to start using your cassette deck again instead of CD's?. How did you survive before the internet? Now that you have it, could you go back to life without it?
I'm just saying that having been across that fence and tried the greener grass......

As far as chucking the whole thing, it's a culmination of points for me. Missing features, buggy equipment, high price "pay-to-view TV" (and I still have to pay for commercials) and the lack of good content to watch makes me re-think the whole thing, that's all. At least with DLB it seemed like I was able to watch twice as much TV for the same price. That increased the perceived value for me.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> It isn't reasonable to assume that DIRECTV is going to allow TiVo to independently offer their own DIRECTV HD DVR.


Again, these things aren't made by DirecTV, and they aren't made by TiVo. They are made by third parties to certain specs. Perhaps it will be the HR2x with TiVo software, or perhaps it will be a different box built to specs determined by both DirecTV and TiVo. And maybe it will, or won't, be restricted to using TiVo software. You can't reliably determine these details from the press release.


----------



## Richierich

Obviously if Directv liked everything that their HRxxs were doing than there wouldn't be a need for this new Tivo/Directv Venture. So they want the Tivo Software but to align with their Directv Platform to be able to offer things that we get now but using the better Tivo Software along with Tivo's enhanced features.

Better for both Tivo & Directv now that Rupert is out of the mix!!!


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> You can't reliably determine these details from the press release.


But you can safely rule out a whole lot of the conjecture that continues to take place.


----------



## Jhon69

rahlquist said:


> +1 I soo miss that function. Of course it will have more meaning if DLB comes with it


Correct which my HR10-250 has and you can use the live tv button or down arrow button to change tuners.While what I've read on the Tivo S3's is you can only use the live tv button.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> But you can safely rule out a whole lot of the conjecture that continues to take place.


Um, yeah, that was my whole point.


----------



## inkahauts

richierich said:


> Obviously if Directv liked everything that their HRxxs were doing than there wouldn't be a need for this new Tivo/Directv Venture.


Unfortunately thats just not true... If it was, Bose would not exist. Sometimes looks are important to people (GUI), and not everyone is attracted to the same things, and sometimes people choose things based solely on ascetics and perception, and not at all on fact or features... or, once again, Bose would not exists...
:nono2:


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> I predict that you're wrong. You use the term "line" instead of "platform".
> 
> You have to take the sentence as a whole and in context with the rest of the release that speaks to a non-exclusive agreement. The non-exclusive part tells us that DIRECTV isn't limited to using the TiVo software. It isn't reasonable to assume that DIRECTV is going to allow TiVo to independently offer their own DIRECTV HD DVR.
> 
> Can you imagine the hairball if TiVo tried to support a DIRECTV receiver along with all of the things that might be wrong outside of the receiver itself?


You mean Tivo would fail again, as usual? Yeah, I could see that... 

From a marketing standpoint, they would be better to offer the Tivo as a software upgrade on all MPEG-4 boxes, including HR20-700s, and newer... And no reason to think they won't try it...


----------



## WillieWildcat

The HR21-700 I have isn't a bad box.....but I will exchange it for a Tivo box as soon as they are available.

The menu for the HR is not all that intuitive and you gotta love the "Peanut".


----------



## harsh

inkahauts said:


> From a marketing standpoint, they would be better to offer the Tivo as a software upgrade on all MPEG-4 boxes, including HR20-700s, and newer... And no reason to think they won't try it...


From a marketing standpoint, they need to make the software available to as many DIRECTV subscribers as possible. I foresee TiVo going after the most populous DVRs first and working their way down the food chain.

I think I could even be convinced to give consideration to a TiVo style GUI for the H2x if the DVR one turns out well. It would doubtless make the whole MRV thing a lot more seamless (assuming they can figure out how to do MRV for non-DVRs).


----------



## blong579

if it doesnt raise my bill ever month and the new box doesnt cost more than my house ill buy it. i just glad dtv finally listened to the customers


----------



## Dmtalon

I'm not reading 56 pages, and I'm sure this has been said.

Build me a modern Directivo(HD) and I will buy two!!! While I won't say I *hate* the HR20 I LOVE Tivo and miss using it on my main TV.

I miss how strong and accurate the searching was without having to learn a second language. TTOO MMUCH WWORK for it to not always even work (for me at least)...


----------



## Sixto

"TiVo and DIRECTV together again!":http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html​


----------



## Budget_HT

Sixto said:


> "TiVo and DIRECTV together again!":http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html​


Thanks, I just signed up!

Years ago I was a beta tester for the activation of the second tuner in the original DirecTiVo boxes. Mine happened to be a Sony SAT-T60 (which we are still using today, along with a pair of HR10-250's).

I would love to have a chance to beta test the new DirecTV HD TiVo.

So far, I have chosen not to acquire an HR2x series HD DVR, in part because the vast majority of our HD viewing/recording is on the local channels we receive OTA. In fact, I had DirecTV shut off ALL digital satellite channels since they were charging me for more channels than I could receive without purchasing their newer, non-TiVo HD DVRs.


----------



## inkahauts

DarinC said:


> When it comes to the HR2x, everyone keeps saying "one day....". The thing has been out for two years. For many CE products, two years is EOL. How much time do they need to get this up to the level TiVo was five years ago?


How long did it take tivo to get there? If you want to play the development speed game, you'll loose. These things are maturing way faster than Tivo did.... Heck it took tivo ages just to get both tuners activated for Directv... and that was the ONLY big change over the first couple years...

And EOL is about hardware issues usually, not software. Software is constantly evolving, and I think its safe to say that the HR2X's software is evolving before our eyes and faster than most anything else out there that I see in the CE world. Look at how often Microsoft puts out new operating systems... Just because they haven't added one feature you like or refined one thing doesn't mean they aren't working on several others... I hear you on your complaint of their order of priorities, but we don't know their reasoning, so I can't really comment on that either way... Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Directv is waiting to deal with making Searches easier to use until next spring, when they will hopefully be looking at developing a new GUI that shows up in HD...



Flyrx7 said:


> How about if you were told you had to start using your cassette deck again instead of CD's?. How did you survive before the internet? Now that you have it, could you go back to life without it?
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


Ah, that's not even close to the same thing.... A better argument would have been one cd or multi disc players... to which I would say, whatever, it still sounds better than tape... My content is still Great! And I can simply change discs myself...

I survived just fine without the internet... Heck, I survived fine without a pager or cell phone too... Again, not the same thing... But I could easily go back to life without those things. They don't define me... But again, missing DLB is not the same thing.... Thats just going overboard...


----------



## kwsmithphoto

Haven't been here for a while so the first I heard of this was a message on one of my DVR-80 (RCA DirecTivo) on the SD TV in the guest room about an hour ago. There's an HR20-700 in the living room hooked up to a 46" plasma too, but I use them both for different things. One of the main things my SD Tivo's do is serve as a backup for when the HR20 screws up, which it does quite a bit.

Anyway, this is awesome news to me!

There are things I prefer about the HR20 interface but I mostly prefer the Tivo interface. And the program guide service is vastly superior, it provides more information, and is updated more reliably than DTV's.

As for hardware/software reliability, no contest at all. The SD Tivo's are much better at tracking shows when they switch to different channels and.or time slots,, a task that the HR20 has serious issues with. Case in point, Indy Car Racing, which is broadcast on either ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, or ESPN Classic. Sometimes they change that at the last minute too, but the Tivo service picks it up everytime. The HR20 has to be told to record the series on each channel they're broadcast on, even though the title is identical. Very annoying and it doesn't always work.

But most importantly, my RCA Tivo's are 1000 times more reliable then the HR20 is. I can learn how to workaround interface issue but I can't learn how to watch a show that didn't record, or learn how to imagine what happened during the 10 second blank spots it creates in perfect weather sometimes. The HR20 has gotten better but it's still unreliable. I went through 3 of them in the first few weeks I had one before I found one that was usable.

Still, I have to reboot it once a week or it will get very, very bad. The only time I reboot the Tivo boxes is when there's a power outage - the power company does it for me!

So...assuming what their combined efforts create is as good as what I'm used to, I'm very excited about it! Ideally it will have the better features of the HR20 like one button instant record and delete, combined with the better features of the Tivo software and programming data (and dual live buffers). Since they have 9 months to work on it I'm pretty confident they'll get it right straight out of the gate. Could be wrong, but I'm an optimist.

BTW, my guess is that the DTV engineers just ran into a brick wall and are unable to make their DVR's any better than they already are. Fortunately they woke up and smelled the coffee (and checked their support and development costs), then decided that making nice with Tivo would both be good for their customers and good for their bottom line.


----------



## mp11

inkahauts said:


> How long did it take tivo to get there? If you want to play the development speed game, you'll loose. These things are maturing way faster than Tivo did.... Heck it took tivo ages just to get both tuners activated for Directv... and that was the ONLY big change over the first couple years...
> 
> 
> 
> But at least Tivo got it right. Lets face it, Directv doesnt know how to build a good DVR.
Click to expand...


----------



## JayB

inkahauts said:


> Sometimes looks are important to people (GUI), and not everyone is attracted to the same things, and sometimes people choose things based solely on ascetics and perception, and not at all on fact or features...
> :nono2:


But the GUI is far more than "ascetics and perception" in many cases and most certainly with the TiVo software. IMO, the TiVo GUI, while certainly more attractive is also much, much easier to use. It has a design elegance that isn't found in the D* software and simply makes the learning curve lower and the day to day use much less of a chore (or in some cases, challenge) than the software in our current crop of DVRs from D*. After all, there's nothing that says that something can't be both pretty and useful.


----------



## loudo

mp11 said:


> inkahauts said:
> 
> 
> 
> But at least Tivo got it right. Lets face it, Directv doesnt know how to build a good DVR.
> 
> 
> 
> Besides the double buffer, I like my HR20 much better than my TIVO HR10-250. I hated that horrible HR10 guide. I had a lot more problems with my HR10 than I have had with either of my HR20s. But, before I draw an opinion I will see what features new product has and how well it works.
Click to expand...


----------



## DarinC

Sixto said:


> "TiVo and DIRECTV together again!":http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html​


Interesting, the wording on THAT page makes it sound like a new box.


----------



## Lee L

DarinC said:


> Interesting, the wording on THAT page makes it sound like a new box.


Considerin g that the DirecTV press release also says iut will be a new box, I am not sure how this would be news.



DirecTV Press Release said:


> DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. *This new TiVo box* will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.


----------



## DarinC

Lee L said:


> Considerin g that the DirecTV press release also says iut will be a new box, I am not sure how this would be news.


It's not. Just pointing it out because some seem to be interpreting the initial press release as a software upgrade to existing boxes.


----------



## Doug Brott

DarinC said:


> Interesting, the wording on THAT page makes it sound like a new box.


From everything I've heard, the new TiVo software will be on an HR2x of some sort


----------



## beejpowers

WAIT!
Has anybody asked this question?
If TiVo ports software onto the HR2x boxes, will everyone get a little TiVoGuy sticker to put on their boxes?:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## dmurphy

beejpowers said:


> WAIT!
> Has anybody asked this question?
> If TiVo ports software onto the HR2x boxes, will everyone get a little TiVoGuy sticker to put on their boxes?:lol: :lol: :lol:


Good, I need a new plush TiVo - mine got lost when we moved ...

Having said all that ... I just reconnected one of our old DTiVo's ....

Anywho - since playing with the DTiVo again, I have to say it feels very clunky to me. I think the interface is prettier, but less functional than the DVR+ line. Adding Season Passes? MUCH harder on the TiVo. I really, really miss the two-clicks-from-the-guide. I miss the PIG. I miss the Interactive channels. I miss program descriptions in the top-level "Now Playing" list. I miss the 'Disk % Used' bar. I miss MoviesNow. I miss dash-dash to delete. I miss deleting entire folders. I miss CE's. I miss '02468'. What I had to do in order to get to the newest DTiVo software was unholy.

I actually miss quite a lot from the DVR+ series.

I think the DVR+ has a lot going for it. It's had some incredible progress over the last 2 years or so; I think the CE program has a lot to do with that.

The DTiVo-HDGen2MPEG4DVRPlusHardwarePlatform that's coming is great -- I'm all for choice... but I just don't think I can give up all the gains I've gotten from the DVR+ series.

Unless something unbelievably drastic changes in the new generation of DTiVo's, I just don't see it edging out the DVR+ for me.

(Never thought I'd say that!)


----------



## Flyrx7

inkahauts said:


> How long did it take tivo to get there? If you want to play the development speed game, you'll loose. These things are maturing way faster than Tivo did.... Heck it took tivo ages just to get both tuners activated for Directv... and that was the ONLY big change over the first couple years...


That argument isn't really comparing apples to apples.
While what you say may be true, Tivo were the pioneers, so they paved the trail for others like D* by defining what a DVR should be, or at least where to start. Not to mention that was ages ago now. Moore's law (may not directly apply here, but you get the idea) states that processing power will double every 18 months. That obviously drives technology and hardware too, so D* has the benefit of much better technology now then Tivo did then. You are comparing the latest of the DVR evolution to one of the earliest. That's not too unlike comparing a caveman and modern man building a fire. We have the better tools now to do it.
Now if D* and Tivo were hitting the market at the same time, with there own technologies then I'd buy your argument.

Directv has much deeper pockets than Tivo too, yet they're having such a hard time developing a "robust" and "stable" DVR. Money is a very good tool, but I don't think they are using it right. If Tivo had the same tool to work with.....

What you don't really see is what Tivo has been doing lately. I still bet that when the box comes out, if it's not handcuffed by D* directly, it will likely outperform the D* boxes. 10 to 1 says that D* will purposely handicap the Tivo, maybe only slightly, but enough. We'll see.



Flyrx7 said:


> How about if you were told you had to start using your cassette deck again instead of CD's?. How did you survive before the internet? Now that you have it, could you go back to life without it?...





inkahauts said:


> Ah, that's not even close to the same thing.... A better argument would have been one cd or multi disc players... to which I would say, whatever, it still sounds better than tape... My content is still Great! And I can simply change discs myself...
> 
> I survived just fine without the internet... Heck, I survived fine without a pager or cell phone too... Again, not the same thing... But I could easily go back to life without those things. They don't define me... But again, missing DLB is not the same thing.... Thats just going overboard...


I wasn't try to put DLB on the same level of importance necessarily as the internet and CD's, just pointing out that once you've tried something and liked it, used it for a year or better, would you get by without it. Maybe I used the wrong analogy, but the point remains that DLB is a basic function of many (most) DVR's, is a pioneering advancement in TV watching, and if the Tivo box doesn't come out with it, then the fix is in and something is not at all square with the universe. That's all I'm saying.

Note to mods....I'm not trying to make this another DLB debate, I know where you guys stand on that, but this is about Tivo, and last I checked, they do DLB.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## psweig

I'm sure that Hughes, RCA, Samsung, etc.. will be happy to hear that TIVO makes a better DVR.


----------



## Flyrx7

It appears that people are comparing the HR2* Plus DVR to the HR10 Tivo. That argument belongs in another thread. :beatdeadhorse: 

Sure, the HR2* shows some great advancements and may be better than the HR10 Tivo from a couple years ago, but an Mpeg4 HR10 is not what I'm expecting from this. 

The new Tivo unit will be a definite evolution from the HR10. The processor will be faster, the chipset will be better, the software will be more refined. Why would you think it's just going to be a Mpeg4 HR10? If that's all they have planned then it will be a major bust and this thread will be a major waste of bandwidth (not that it isn't already).

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Doug Brott

beejpowers said:


> WAIT!
> Has anybody asked this question?
> If TiVo ports software onto the HR2x boxes, will everyone get a little TiVoGuy sticker to put on their boxes?:lol: :lol: :lol:


DIRECTV is not getting out of the DVR business .. In fact, the DIRECTV's DVR will remain the primary focus for DIRECTV.

Now some of my personal thoughts ..

While it may be possible, I have my doubts about any HR2x receiver being field upgradable. The file system structures are different between TiVo and HR2x firmwares so converting one to the other would be very tough .. If the bootloader has to be modified, then it's a virtual non-starter for field upgrades .. losing programs is one thing, but completely bricking a receiver is something else altogether.


----------



## Lee L

Doug Brott said:


> ..
> 
> While it may be possible, I have my doubts about any HR2x receiver being field upgradable. The file system structures are different between TiVo and HR2x firmwares so converting one to the other would be very tough .. If the bootloader has to be modified, then it's a virtual non-starter for field upgrades .. losing programs is one thing, but completely bricking a receiver is something else altogether.


Hey, it never stopped Time Warner from loading up the Passport (or whatver the new SW is called) on their DVRs and bricking tons of them.  From what I have read it is not as good as what it replaced and probably several times worse than any DirecTV DVR ever has been.


----------



## bonscott87

inkahauts said:


> Unfortunately thats just not true... If it was, Bose would not exist. Sometimes looks are important to people (GUI), and not everyone is attracted to the same things, and sometimes people choose things based solely on ascetics and perception, and not at all on fact or features... or, once again, Bose would not exists...
> :nono2:


However you are wrong in some ways. If the actual Tivo GUI were all that important to the mass public then Tivo wouldn't have less then 10% of the DVR market and shrinking every quarter (including their own stand alones). As has been pointed out I don't know how many times, to the general public *every* DVR is "a Tivo". It's a verb, it's a generic name for DVR. Yes, there is a small hard core group of people that will use nothing else, but that isn't enough. This is Tivo's last gasp with the Comcast Tivo a disaster and their stand alone business keeps shrinking. DirecTV is tossing Tivo a bone because they see a way to make money on it after they finally got the terms they wanted. Nothing more.


----------



## Jhon69

ADVERTISEMENT
Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.

DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.


I needed to go back to the original announcement.While before I believed different this states the way it's going to be.The DirecTV DVR+ will continue on it's course of developement with a new DirecTivo in 2009.I would guess anything could be subject to change without notice.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jhon69 said:


> ADVERTISEMENT
> Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.
> 
> DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.
> 
> I needed to go back to the original announcement.While before I believed different this states the way it's going to be.The DirecTV DVR+ will continue on it's course of developement with a new DirecTivo in 2009.I would guess anything could be subject to change without notice.


Yes, folks that have TiVo's are getting this same message on their receivers this week.


----------



## loudo

Flyrx7 said:


> It appears that people are comparing the HR2* Plus DVR to the HR10 Tivo. That argument belongs in another thread. :beatdeadhorse:


I can't speak for everyone who commented, but my mentioning it was to get the point across that I will be OK with it, if the new TIVO box is improved over the TIVO HR10-250.


----------



## wingrider01

mp11 said:


> inkahauts said:
> 
> 
> 
> But at least Tivo got it right. Lets face it, Directv doesnt know how to build a good DVR.
> 
> 
> 
> 90 percent of the cases that is opinion. Sorry but the current loadout on my HR2X boxes are a lot mroe stable and usable then what is on the HR10's and older SD Tivo boxes that I have on my account.
> 
> Yes there are problems with the HR2X boxes, but there where and still are tons of issues with the HR10 boxes also, but everyone tends to try and gloss over those
Click to expand...


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, folks that have TiVo's are getting this same message on their receivers this week.


Yea my message on mine only talks about the new DirecTivo in 2009.

Hey Doug!.Do you think the older DirecTivos will maybe get Swivel Search and Kid Zone?.I have been waiting for a upgrade to use the DVR scheduler on my HR10-250.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jhon69 said:


> Hey Doug!.Do you think the older DirecTivos will maybe get Swivel Search and Kid Zone?.I have been waiting for a upgrade to use the DVR scheduler on my HR10-250.


Sadly, one of the things that really torqued me with TiVo is that they quickly obsoleted my SAT-T60 .. I don't know the answer to your question, but my pessimistic response would be "I doubt it."


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> Sadly, one of the things that really torqued me with TiVo is that they quickly obsoleted my SAT-T60 .. I don't know the answer to your question, but my pessimistic response would be "I doubt it."


Doug check out this thread reply by litzdog.

http://forums.directv.com/pe/action/forums/displaysinglethread?rootPostID=10416538


----------



## Doug Brott

Jhon69 said:


> Doug check out this thread reply by litzdog.
> 
> http://forums.directv.com/pe/action/forums/displaysinglethread?rootPostID=10416538


Sorry, let me be more clear .. They froze the feature set of the SAT-T60 .. and moved on to bigger and better things (Series 2). Heck, I don't even think all of the Series 1 boxes were treated the same .. I still have one SAT-T60 in use .. My HR10-250 is sitting in the closet unused.


----------



## Guest

I have three HR20/21 HD DVRs, as well as two HD Tivo HR10-250 DVRs. 
(one of the the HR10-250 is dead) 

All five of them are still active on my account, which means I'm paying 5 bucks
a months for each of them.(except the primary one, of course)

if I call DirecTV now, they'll just replace the dead HR10-250 with a HR21.

what if I just keep it active on my account and wait until next year? will they
replace it with the new HD Tivo DVR once it's release? (yes, I know it's supposed
to be second half of '09)


----------



## Guest

I have three HR20/21s.

How much do you think DirecTV will charge next year if I want to swap all three
HR20/21s for the new HD Tivo DVR next year?

$100 each, $200 each, or free?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'd say it would be a long shot. Nothing has been said about upgrading people for free. In the meantime you would page $150 or so in mirroring fees. 

This thread is being merged into the other TiVo thread.


----------



## evan_s

No idea at this point. We aren't even sure if it will require a new box or if it will be a download on existing boxes. Probably got at least 6 months before anyone can even come close to answering this question.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

"at least"... that's a good way of putting it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> "at least"... that's a good way of putting it.


...or........most likely no chance in heck any earlier than 6 months... 

I wouldn't expect it until late 2009...


----------



## harsh

Dmtalon said:


> TTOO MMUCH WWORK for it to not always even work (for me at least)...


I heard a rumor that the other option was doing it in XML.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> While it may be possible, I have my doubts about any HR2x receiver being field upgradable.


I disagree.


> The file system structures are different between TiVo and HR2x firmwares so converting one to the other would be very tough.


Most *nix style filesystems are fully interchangeable. Each has something that it is better suited to, but they are still functionally equivalent.


> If the bootloader has to be modified, then it's a virtual non-starter for field upgrades.


The bootstrap goes to NVRAM and looks for code to execute. Once in NVRAM, you can do whatever you want including looking somewhere else (ie. USB or other mass storage).


> losing programs is one thing, but completely bricking a receiver is something else altogether.


I think you'll find that giving up a few recorded programs is a price that many are willing to pay in hopes of not missing any future programs and being able to get the functionality that the TiVo experience promises.


----------



## inkahauts

bonscott87 said:


> However you are wrong in some ways. If the actual Tivo GUI were all that important to the mass public then Tivo wouldn't have less then 10% of the DVR market and shrinking every quarter (including their own stand alones). As has been pointed out I don't know how many times, to the general public *every* DVR is "a Tivo". It's a verb, it's a generic name for DVR. Yes, there is a small hard core group of people that will use nothing else, but that isn't enough. This is Tivo's last gasp with the Comcast Tivo a disaster and their stand alone business keeps shrinking. DirecTV is tossing Tivo a bone because they see a way to make money on it after they finally got the terms they wanted. Nothing more.


Huh? Actually, what you are saying is confirming my point... (did you see what I was responding too? Someone said Directv was bringing back tivo because they decided their units weren't good enough? Not right at all) Sometimes better doesn't cut it, and people want something they perceive is better... Hence some people are convinced Tivo is better, even though its inferior IMO, and that's one of the main reasons its still alive. I actually don't think its that important to many people overall... But to a few die hards, its everything... And if they can make some more money off of them, then its the smart business thing to do. I am not a Tivo fan... But I think its a smart move for Directv from a buisness standpoint.


----------



## bonscott87

inkahauts said:


> Huh? Actually, what you are saying is confirming my point... (did you see what I was responding too? Someone said Directv was bringing back tivo because they decided their units weren't good enough? Not right at all) Sometimes better doesn't cut it, and people want something they perceive is better... Hence some people are convinced Tivo is better, even though its inferior IMO, and that's one of the main reasons its still alive. I actually don't think its that important to many people overall... But to a few die hards, its everything... And if they can make some more money off of them, then its the smart business thing to do. I am not a Tivo fan... But I think its a smart move for Directv from a buisness standpoint.


Okey dokey, then we agree.


----------



## inkahauts

wingrider01 said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 90 percent of the cases that is opinion. Sorry but the current loadout on my HR2X boxes are a lot mroe stable and usable then what is on the HR10's and older SD Tivo boxes that I have on my account.
> 
> Yes there are problems with the HR2X boxes, but there where and still are tons of issues with the HR10 boxes also, but everyone tends to try and gloss over those
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get my quote? It seems altered in some way... I don't think tivo has a good gui at all, and if I had said that in any way, it would have been dripping with sarcasm.. I think Tivo gui does nothing more than insult my intelligence...
> 
> I've also posted that I have more problems with my HR10 than my HR20's...
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

wingrider01 said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 90 percent of the cases that is opinion. Sorry but the current loadout on my HR2X boxes are a lot mroe stable and usable then what is on the HR10's and older SD Tivo boxes that I have on my account.
> 
> Yes there are problems with the HR2X boxes, but there where and still are tons of issues with the HR10 boxes also, but everyone tends to try and gloss over those
> 
> 
> 
> You're comparing Directv's latest with one of Tivo oldest? You do realize that Tivo has made a box or two since those days?
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

inkahauts said:


> wingrider01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get my quote? It seems altered in some way...
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## loudo

mp11 said:


> wingrider01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're comparing Directv's latest with one of Tivo oldest? You do realize that Tivo has made a box or two since those days?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, their own under their name, but not for someone else.
Click to expand...


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> I think you'll find that giving up a few recorded programs is a price that many are willing to pay in hopes of not missing any future programs and being able to get the functionality that the TiVo experience promises.


Hey, I didn't say it was impossible .. I do think that even in a best case scenario recordings would be lost .. I do think it is doubtful that it will be field upgradeable because of everything that could go wrong .. But certainly it is possible.


----------



## dennisj00

Doug Brott said:


> Hey, I didn't say it was impossible .. I do think that even in a best case scenario recordings would be lost .. I do think it is doubtful that it will be field upgradeable because of everything that could go wrong .. But certainly it is possible.


I'll buy another HR2x just to test the Tivo software.


----------



## wingrider01

loudo said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, their own under their name, but not for someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Might want to quote correclty, I never said that and never will
Click to expand...


----------



## loudo

wingrider01 said:


> loudo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Might want to quote correclty, I never said that and never will
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, my bad.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jhon69

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'd say it would be a long shot. Nothing has been said about upgrading people for free. In the meantime you would page $150 or so in mirroring fees.
> 
> This thread is being merged into the other TiVo thread.


DirecTV subscribers can dream can't they?.


----------



## CJTE

harsh said:


> Read the statement carefully.The key word being "DIRECTV's" (possessive) indicating that it will be DIRECTV's platform, not TiVo's or anyone else's.


And that's where I'm banging heads with everyone. (EDIT: Except DarinC, apparently, as Ive gone back and read the last 2 pages)

"TiVo(R) service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform."

Platform doesn't mean one of their current, or future, pieces of hardware. It means it will be in-line with the rest of the platform, carry similar features, look similar. It does NOT mean, its going to be an HR20,21, etc.

Not for the HD DVR. For the HD DVR *plat form*


----------



## CJTE

Doug Brott said:


> Hey, I didn't say it was impossible .. I do think that even in a best case scenario recordings would be lost .. I do think it is doubtful that it will be field upgradeable because of everything that could go wrong .. But certainly it is possible.


Now how come when I question the ability of someone being able to "download the Tivo software onto their HR20, etc" is it no big deal? But 10 pages later you're saying you think its highly unlikely?


----------



## Doug Brott

CJTE said:


> Now how come when I question the ability of someone being able to "download the Tivo software onto their HR20, etc" is it no big deal? But 10 pages later you're saying you think its highly unlikely?


You'll have to refresh my memory on that one ..


----------



## Jhon69

CJTE said:


> And that's where I'm banging heads with everyone. (EDIT: Except DarinC, apparently, as Ive gone back and read the last 2 pages)
> 
> "TiVo(R) service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform."
> 
> Platform doesn't mean one of their current, or future, pieces of hardware. It means it will be in-line with the rest of the platform, carry similar features, look similar. It does NOT mean, its going to be an HR20,21, etc.
> 
> Not for the HD DVR. For the HD DVR *plat form*


Correct sorry if I gave you a headache.

I now agree with you 100%.This thread is so long I needed to go back to page1 as to read the original article.There it states DirecTV's DVR+ will continue it's development, with a new HD DirecTivo coming in late 2009.

My HR10-250 also received a message and it only talked about the new HD DirecTivo.So for me that confirms it.:sure:


----------



## shal

Guess I'm really late to the party, but I'll throw in my "Whoo-Hoo!" as well.:icon_da: 

I guess I'm just a little weird though: a TiVo partisan that doesn't give a hoot about DLB, I so seldom watch anything live anymore. ;-)

Despite having two HDTV's in my house for the last year and three-quarters, I've been holding onto my SD DirecTiVos while waiting for FIOS to make it to my house so that I can have HD TiVo (mountains prevent much OTA for me). That's how turned off to the D* DVR I was over a year ago when I had a brief fling with a few R15s. My DVR40 (RCA DirecTiVo) failed. Never did get an R15 to work properly, so I replaced the hard drive in my DVR40 (it's now a DVR250  ). Returned the last R15 and never looked back.

I see from this thread I made the right choice: I have over 75 Season passes on the DVR250, and three kids means I absolutely need the Recording History page so I know what happened when I don't get my show. Usually it was a kid that wouldn't let the tuner switch channels. With the R15 I could never know why it decided not to record my program that day, and that was unbearably frustrating. If they'd ever bothered to fix that one broken feature I might have been talked into putting up with only 50 Series links. Maybe. 

Or maybe the recording history in D* DVRs can't be fixed because the software itself has no idea what it is doing or why. :nono2: A DVR is first and foremost a recorder -- if it can't do that reliably it is of no use to me. If after failure I can't figure out why and correct the problem, that is unforgivable. Outside of user error, power failures and the occasional programming change (and the one worn-out hard drive) my SD DirecTiVos never let me down.

The other factor, seldom mentioned in this thread, is the TiVo guide data itself. The additional level of detail provided by TiVo means that I've enjoyed many movies, specials, and other programs that I'd never have known about otherwise. That's because I have a long list of Wishlist items watching for specific actors, directors and keywords. I don't auto-record them, but once a week I look through the list of upcoming showings and set a recording for the ones that interest me. As far as I could tell, the DirecTV guide data had very little extra info in it beyond a brief synopsis.

So, rant aside, now I'm thinking maybe I'll order an HD upgrade soon. As long as I can talk them out of any hardware commitment, or at least let me transfer it, I may be willing to lease a D* DVR as an interim solution (with the DVR250 still running as backstop for missed programs).


----------



## SilvrDrgn

I'm late on seeing the new for this one as well, but yes .... WOO HOO!

I have an HR20-100 right now, and I think it's crap compared to my standard definition DirecTivo (Philips DSR6000R)! A while ago, I made the mistake of trying out the DirecTV "DVR Scheduler" functionality on their web site. It screwed up the entire To-Do List in the HR20-100. Plus, I could not erase all the Record Series entries to re-input them. Once I deleted them all, some of them would automatically come back into the list at random, and they would be numbered randomly. The list would be numbered like 1, 1, 2, 4, 6. Calling DirecTV was no help, which was no surprise. The only thing they offered was to do a complete reset and delete everything. What a joke!

Tivo is so much better than DirecTV's own DVR implementation! I will definitely be getting the HD Tivo version when it's available in 2009!

By the way, are any hacks available for the HR20-100 ?? Trying to see if I can fix some of its annoying issues. I've done some searching, but have come up empty.


----------



## Lee L

SilvrDrgn, your problem has happened to others. If you do a standard reboot, it should fix itself. Go to the Menu--->Parental, Fav and Setup--> Setup, then the reset menu. Select Restart Recorder and you should be good to go.


----------



## trainman

shal said:


> ...I have a long list of Wishlist items watching for specific actors, directors and keywords. I don't auto-record them, but once a week I look through the list of upcoming showings and set a recording for the ones that interest me.


Yep, the fact that you can't do this (easily) on the HR2x is, seriously, the biggest reason I'm awaiting the new TiVo.

But DLB would come in handy while I'm watching football, so I hope the TiVo shows up in time for next year's NFL Sunday Ticket season.


----------



## mp11

Not sure if this is old news or not, but I just got off the phone with D* customer service about problems with my HR21, and I decided to ask him a few questions about the new Tivo. Well he didnt know too much about it right now, but what he did say with certainty, is that *it will be an owned unit.* No lease. So, is this a good thing or a bad thing? And wouldn't that eliminate a 2 year contract?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Let me be perfectly clear: there is no way a CSR would know that. No one knows that yet, I'm pretty sure. With due respect, any CSR who tells you what any unreleased receiver will or won't do is working from the same rumor and speculation as the posters in this thread.


----------



## rahlquist

mp11 said:


> Not sure if this is old news or not, but I just got off the phone with D* customer service about problems with my HR21, and I decided to ask him a few questions about the new Tivo. Well he didnt know too much about it right now, but what he did say with certainty, is that *it will be an owned unit.* No lease. So, is this a good thing or a bad thing? And wouldn't that eliminate a 2 year contract?


The only certainty out of the convo you had with that CSR is they were talking about policies and procedures that haven't even begun to be thought out. I wouldn't ask a CSR about a new Tivo unit until after they are released then they may have a chance at having been trained to answer your questions. Prior to that you are getting rumors. Of course if youre a believer in the million monkeys rule sooner or later something they say may be right.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but they JUST announced the hardware the CSR have NO chance to know anything more about them than you do.


----------



## Ken S

mp11 said:


> Not sure if this is old news or not, but I just got off the phone with D* customer service about problems with my HR21, and I decided to ask him a few questions about the new Tivo. Well he didnt know too much about it right now, but what he did say with certainty, is that *it will be an owned unit.* No lease. So, is this a good thing or a bad thing? And wouldn't that eliminate a 2 year contract?


They were probably applying what they know about the OLD DirecTivo units to your question.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That would be a logical presumption. I think it's funny how our members speak so disrespectfully of CSRs and their level of knowledge, up until the time a CSR says something they want to hear, and then it is quickly elevated to incontrovertible fact. 

I know quite a few DIRECTV CSRs and they are excellent people, but not a one of them can predict the future with certainty.


----------



## mp11

OK guys dont shoot me I'm only the messenger. :lol:



Ken S said:


> They were probably applying what they know about the OLD DirecTivo units to your question.


Good point. And that indeed may be the only thing known ahead of time. Maybe its a preordained issue when the deal was struck. Or maybe as some have so kindly illuded to, as BS.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

...mp11, the shot was not aimed at you so much as it was a shotgun blast aimed that the flittering affections of the DBSTalk.com populace. No insult was meant to you.


----------



## mp11

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think it's funny how our members speak so disrespectfully of CSRs and their level of knowledge, up until the time a CSR says something they want to hear, and then it is quickly elevated to incontrovertible fact.
> 
> When have I ever spoken disrespectfully about a CSR? Show me.


----------



## harsh

mp11 said:


> When have I ever spoken disrespectfully about a CSR?


Again, this isn't about you. It is about the legions that preceded you (and the legions that will follow) about how CSRs are the lowest element of the food chain.

Like many other things, DIRECTV doesn't seem to have enough control over the situation to prevent people from making stuff up but if you're a CSR and you're constantly bombarded with questions you aren't trained to answer, I suppose that occasionally they feel compelled to make some sort of plausible statement.


----------



## rahlquist

mp11 said:


> When have I ever spoken disrespectfully about a CSR? Show me.


I think Stuart was generalizing, not aiming at you. He is sayign a lot of folks treat the CSR's word as pure trash until its what they want to hear then it becomes Gospel.


----------



## mp11

harsh said:


> It is about the legions that preceded you (and the legions that will follow) about how CSRs are the lowest element of the food chain.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand your point...IF I had been one of those.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose that occasionally they feel compelled to make some sort of plausible statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This guy didnt sound "compelled" to say anything. He wasnt a kid. He could have said he didnt know anything.
> 
> But listen guys...all is good.
Click to expand...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

To be completely clear, I've offered a private apology to mp11 and now I offer a public one. I state here for the record that I have no evidence of his ever having been one to disparage a CSR.


----------



## mp11

Stuart Sweet said:


> To be completely clear, I've offered a private apology to mp11 and now I offer a public one. I state here for the record that I have no evidence of his ever having been one to disparage a CSR.


You're a good person Stuart. As I stated in private, an appology wasnt necessary. Maybe we should move on.


----------



## shal

mp11 said:


> ... *it will be an owned unit.* No lease. So, is this a good thing or a bad thing? And wouldn't that eliminate a 2 year contract?


I'd call it a good thing if it were offered for sale. And if it were also sold by third parties you might be able to get some kind of terms from the seller, should you have wanted a lease. And yes, either way I'd expect there to be no commitment to D* with a purchased unit (that's how it used to work).

But given D*'s current all lease, no self-install, business practice I'll join the skeptics on that particular tid-bit. We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## rahlquist

shal said:


> But given D*'s current all lease, no self-install, business practice I'll join the skeptics on that particular tid-bit. We'll have to wait and see.


Self installs aren't ruled out. And self upgrades are encouraged using their new web site ordered drop shipped hardware.


----------



## Jhon69

shal said:


> I'd call it a good thing if it were offered for sale. And if it were also sold by third parties you might be able to get some kind of terms from the seller, should you have wanted a lease. And yes, either way I'd expect there to be no commitment to D* with a purchased unit (that's how it used to work).
> 
> But given D*'s current all lease, no self-install, business practice I'll join the skeptics on that particular tid-bit. We'll have to wait and see.


Well I would have to say that I would lease the new HD DirecTivo.Because unfortunately you have the select few out there that think"I own it, I can experiment with it".:up_to_som :nono2:


----------



## shal

Jhon69 said:


> Because unfortunately you have the select few out there that think"I own it, I can experiment with it".:up_to_som :nono2:


Eh? What's wrong with taking your toys apart? Learning how to put them back together again is great experience. 
http://makezine.com/about/

Or did I misunderstand you?


----------



## Jhon69

shal said:


> Eh? What's wrong with taking your toys apart? Learning how to put them back together again is great experience.
> http://makezine.com/about/
> 
> Or did I misunderstand you?


Don't know I was trying to avoid the word"hack".


----------



## shal

Jhon69 said:


> Don't know I was trying to avoid the word"hack".


Hack is not a dirty word (don't let the four-letter length fool you!). Alas, it has passed into common usage as a synonym for "black-hat" activity -- hacking for nefarious/illegal purposes.

I'm old-school enough to think that my property is my property. If I destroy it that's my own loss. When I opened up my DVR40 to replace its dead hard drive it was long out of warranty so I had little to lose, but the cost of the new drive, in attempting a DIY repair. I got lucky -- the old drive was apparently the only thing wrong and I've enjoyed my "DVR250" for over a year since. But in my vocabulary that's a simple repair job, not a "hack".

For those that actually did "hack" their DirecTiVos -- modifying, adding or enabling software in a supposedly closed system -- I say more power to them. I'd rather see D* and TiVo embrace the tinkering enthusiasts, the way iRobot and some other companies have. Publish an API, set up a mechanism for self-published add-ons and extensions in the manner of some software products. It would be cool -- but now I'm heading way off-topic for this thread...


----------



## wingrider01

shal said:


> Hack is not a dirty word (don't let the four-letter length fool you!). Alas, it has passed into common usage as a synonym for "black-hat" activity -- hacking for nefarious/illegal purposes.
> 
> I'm old-school enough to think that my property is my property. If I destroy it that's my own loss. When I opened up my DVR40 to replace its dead hard drive it was long out of warranty so I had little to lose, but the cost of the new drive, in attempting a DIY repair. I got lucky -- the old drive was apparently the only thing wrong and I've enjoyed my "DVR250" for over a year since. But in my vocabulary that's a simple repair job, not a "hack".
> 
> For those that actually did "hack" their DirecTiVos -- modifying, adding or enabling software in a supposedly closed system -- I say more power to them. I'd rather see D* and TiVo embrace the tinkering enthusiasts, the way iRobot and some other companies have. Publish an API, set up a mechanism for self-published add-ons and extensions in the manner of some software products. It would be cool -- but now I'm heading way off-topic for this thread...


True, but the thing to realize is that very few of the new HR2X's are "your" units, you are leasing them, suspect the same will be true for the Tivo based units when they are released. Also suspect they will be more imprevious to non-validated end user modifications and prevention of software upgrades to the unit


----------



## shal

wingrider01 said:


> True, but the thing to realize is that very few of the new HR2X's are "your" units, you are leasing them...


Agreed about leased units. My comments were all in favor of having a purchase option, even if relatively few customers choose that option.

The comment reported a few posts back by mp11, that all HD DirecTiVos would be purchased, seems unlikely to me -- but we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## rudeney

shal said:


> I'm old-school enough to think that my property is my property.


Unfortunately, electronics are no longer just hardware that can be freely bought and sold and modified. Hardware has become a transport vessel of intellectual property and that opens up a whole new world of laws and regulations.


----------



## wingrider01

shal said:


> Agreed about leased units. My comments were all in favor of having a purchase option, even if relatively few customers choose that option.
> 
> The comment reported a few posts back by mp11, that all HD DirecTiVos would be purchased, seems unlikely to me -- but we'll just have to wait and see.


There is a HR2X series that you can purchase outright think it sells for around 500, so if they do sell them, I would expect the price to be really close to that.


----------



## shal

rudeney said:


> Unfortunately, electronics are no longer just hardware that can be freely bought and sold and modified. Hardware has become a transport vessel of intellectual property and that opens up a whole new world of laws and regulations.


I'm not advocating theft of intellectual property. A book too can be a vessel of intellectual property, yet I may freely highlight sections, cross out sections, add marginal notes, or otherwise modify it for my own enjoyment and/or education.

The IP rights restrict me from selling or otherwise distributing duplicates or derivative works to others, and that's ok. Patent rights in the hardware likewise restrict what I can do commercially with duplicates of the object, or of certain parts of it. I don't mind playing by the rules; in hoping for a purchase option I'm just asking to be let into a playground with a fair set of rules.


----------



## ehilbert1

I don't know if anyone asked this or not(I really didn't want to read through 50 some pages) is there any chance we could record 4 shows at once? My sister has AT&T Uverse and her DVR is great. She should have MLV within the next month or so. I know I know alot of people hate AT&T and this is D* forum. I'm just asking if there is a chance. I'm sticking with D* regardless.


----------



## Brennok

ehilbert1 said:


> I don't know if anyone asked this or not(I really didn't want to read through 50 some pages) is there any chance we could record 4 shows at once? My sister has AT&T Uverse and her DVR is great. She should have MLV within the next month or so. I know I know alot of people hate AT&T and this is D* forum. I'm just asking if there is a chance. I'm sticking with D* regardless.


There are no specs on the new Tivo yet but considering Tivo has yet to put out a 4 tuner box the signs point to no. Also it would be one less box fee to pay if they offered a Tivo with 4 tuners. P

ersonally I would love it or would also willingly accept a Tivo that I can choose to network and use the other Tivos to resolve conflicts. Say for example you have 4 Tivos and you could choose Tivo A and Tivo B to share season passes and Tivo C and Tivo D to share season passes to resolve any conflicts.


----------



## 1999cobra

On the phone with Tivo rep yesterday - FYI, software download was considered, Tivo box 2 tuners, somewhere around December projected availability, box somewhere around $650 ... 

Believe it or not - I don't care ... 

I'll keep my HR22 and my HR20's thank you, Tivo...


----------



## kiljoy

Brennok said:


> There are no specs on the new Tivo yet but considering Tivo has yet to put out a 4 tuner box the signs point to no. Also it would be one less box fee to pay if they offered a Tivo with 4 tuners. P
> 
> ersonally I would love it or would also willingly accept a Tivo that I can choose to network and use the other Tivos to resolve conflicts. Say for example you have 4 Tivos and you could choose Tivo A and Tivo B to share season passes and Tivo C and Tivo D to share season passes to resolve any conflicts.


Off topic and moving further off topic, but the Nero LiquidTV software package for HTPCs is a four-tuner TiVo that's networkable. Obviously you can't share season pass duties among units, and CableLabs being what it is and the HDPC-20 being what it is you're limited to ATSC OTA and one set-top box downrezzed, but it does technically meet your requirement of being a four-tuner TiVo.

Tony


----------



## loudo

1999cobra said:


> On the phone with Tivo rep yesterday - FYI, software download was considered, Tivo box 2 tuners, somewhere around December projected availability, box somewhere around $650 ...


This was from the original DirecTV press release: *TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009. 
*Maybe he meant December of next year.


----------



## 1999cobra

loudo said:


> This was from the original DirecTV press release: *TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.
> *Maybe he meant December of next year.


I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear - December 09 ...


----------



## Brennok

kiljoy said:


> Off topic and moving further off topic, but the Nero LiquidTV software package for HTPCs is a four-tuner TiVo that's networkable. Obviously you can't share season pass duties among units, and CableLabs being what it is and the HDPC-20 being what it is you're limited to ATSC OTA and one set-top box downrezzed, but it does technically meet your requirement of being a four-tuner TiVo.
> 
> Tony


With 4 tuners I wouldn't need it to share season pass duty, but unfortunately from everything I have read there is no way to hook it up to a directv source. I can't remember if they don't make DTV tuner cards for the pc or if they are just so rare that it is cheaper just to buy two Tivos.



1999cobra said:


> On the phone with Tivo rep yesterday - FYI, software download was considered, Tivo box 2 tuners, somewhere around December projected availability, box somewhere around $650 ...
> 
> Believe it or not - I don't care ...
> 
> I'll keep my HR22 and my HR20's thank you, Tivo...


I really think if the Tivo rep is correct they will need to come down in price which will probably happen eventually, but I think anything higher than 499.99 initially will be out pricing themselves. I know at 499 I would definitely think of picking up 2 but at 650 I will probably hold off until I see prices drop or Directv offers some type of deal on them with commitment assuming that happens.


----------



## kiljoy

Brennok said:


> With 4 tuners I wouldn't need it to share season pass duty, but unfortunately from everything I have read there is no way to hook it up to a directv source. I can't remember if they don't make DTV tuner cards for the pc or if they are just so rare that it is cheaper just to buy two Tivos.


It can control _one_ DirecTV source via IR blaster, but must take a down-rezzed signal in so no HD. Now if the HDPC-20 ever comes out, well, that changes everything.

Tony


----------



## apastuszak

I'm a huge fan of th DirecTivo boxes. I was truly disappointed when DirecTV broke their deal with Tivo. I'm very glad a new deal has been struck and a high-def Tivo based DVR is coming out.

Are other planning to upgrade?


----------



## luckydob

um, after the debacle that was today with their line of DVR's I'm guessing a few more people will be looking at the Tivo units when they are available.


----------



## 1999cobra

You don't think Tivo boxes have problems ....:uglyhamme


----------



## spartanstew

There's no way to know that if what happened today happened next year, that the new D*Tivo's wouldn't be effected too.


----------



## Drewg5

HR + DLB = :beatdeadhorse: 
TiVo + DLB = :dance07: 

Personally I would like to see a hybrid between the two.. Than again if the wife gets her way the HR20 and all DirecTv branded + non TiVo DVR's would be gone.


----------



## MX727

1999cobra said:


> You don't think Tivo boxes have problems ....:uglyhamme


Five years with DirecTivo, two of those with the HR10: 1 missed recording

3 weeks with HR22: 2 missed recordings, 8 RBR. Then we had today.

Not even a comparision.


----------



## inkahauts

apastuszak said:


> I'm a huge fan of th DirecTivo boxes. I was truly disappointed when DirecTV broke their deal with Tivo. I'm very glad a new deal has been struck and a high-def Tivo based DVR is coming out.
> 
> Are other planning to upgrade?


I will not replace all my units with tivo... if they want to give me one extra unit for free, ill take it, but otherwise, no thanks.... they don't have enough intuitive features, like one touch record... they have a long way to go before I could even consider Tivo being in the same class as a HR2x... some people think its all about DLB... I think its all about PIG, one touch, single line guide and other things... and I wonder how many people will still be clamoring for a tivo when DLB and MRV rollls out on the HR2x's... I'm guessing only the biggest die hard tivo fans...


----------



## wingrider01

MX727 said:


> Five years with DirecTivo, two of those with the HR10: 1 missed recording
> 
> 3 weeks with HR22: 2 missed recordings, 8 RBR. Then we had today.
> 
> Not even a comparision.


12+ years with Directv (7/96)
multitude of restarts, lost recordings, short recordings with the HR10, thousands of screams from the family because the hr10 automagicly restarted
2 years with the HR 20 = 99 percent less screams of anguish
Owned HR10 meeting Mr & Mr's Wesson on the back 40 = a great feeling


----------



## bidger

luckydob said:


> um, after the debacle that was today with their line of DVR's I'm guessing a few more people will be looking at the Tivo units when they are available.


I have twice found my HR10 in a comatose state, no display, unresponsive to remote commands and front panel buttons, and requiring a plug pull to revive. Sorry to break it to you, but no DVR is bullet-proof.


----------



## say-what

luckydob said:


> um, after the debacle that was today with their line of DVR's I'm guessing a few more people will be looking at the Tivo units when they are available.


How quickly people forget the problems the DirecTIVO's had because of bad guide data back in 2006 - lockups, reboots, missed recordings and then the problems caused by some of the TIVO updates around that time also.....


----------



## 1999cobra

I was there and I remember exactly that in 2006 it was a F'ing nightmare - 

But these Idiots want to forget - or else they just didn't live through it ...

Hey let them spend +$650 for a Tivo - watching TV must be their lives and if that's the case I suppose it's money well spent -


----------



## bonscott87

luckydob said:


> um, after the debacle that was today with their line of DVR's I'm guessing a few more people will be looking at the Tivo units when they are available.


Since the problem yesterday had nothing to do specifically with the HR2x's I don't think it really matters.


----------



## Bizarroterl

I have 2 HR20 receivers and one DirecTivo. Every time I use the DirecTivo I'm impressed with the design. If it were faster and did HD I'd dump the HR20s in a heartbeat.


The only question about the new Tivo is when and how quick can the HR20s be swapped out.


----------



## ATARI

bonscott87 said:


> Since the problem yesterday had nothing to do specifically with the HR2x's I don't think it really matters.


Yet only HR2x were affected.

Hmmm...


----------



## RCY

ATARI said:


> Yet only HR2x were affected.
> 
> Hmmm...


Can't speak to the HR2x boxes, but I had no problem with my SD Dtivos...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

ATARI said:


> Yet only HR2x were affected.
> 
> Hmmm...


This isn't the right thread for that discussion, I'm sure you all have plenty of other things to discuss :lol:

I can't believe I'm saying this in this particular thread...

:backtotop


----------



## bonscott87

ATARI said:


> Yet only HR2x were affected.
> 
> Hmmm...


My H21 was also effected. Not a DVR.


----------



## apastuszak

1999cobra said:


> You don't think Tivo boxes have problems ....:uglyhamme


I had an R10 for 2 years without any issue, other than 2 spontaneous reboots.

Andy


----------



## ATARI

bonscott87 said:


> My H21 was also effected. Not a DVR.


Apparently you missed Stuart's post?

BTW -- my H20 was not affected (not a DVR)


----------



## CJTE

Doug Brott said:


> You'll have to refresh my memory on that one ..
> 
> 
> CJTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now how come when I question the ability of someone being able to "download the Tivo software onto their HR20, etc" is it no big deal? But 10 pages later you're saying you think its highly unlikely?
Click to expand...

Mehh, I thought there were more posts/alternative dialog, but I didnt see it just now when I skimmed through.



Doug Brott said:


> CJTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whats not-so-clear is how people expect it to run on DirecTVs (current) receivers. Its not like a CE where you download it for 10 minutes and you're good. The tivo software is a whole different operating system.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah .. so? .. that just means that all of the drivers need to be worked out so that it runs on the existing hardware .. not that it can't be done.
Click to expand...




CJTE said:


> 3) If it were an operating system available for download, customers would need a means to download it, without corruption, and DirecTV would need a way to track it, _and_ know what boxes were running it, so they could charge the nominal fee. Add that some form of security would have to be laid down in order to keep anyone from downloading it.
> It actually sounds more like an expense, and hassle, to deal with, then having a whole seperate unit.


----------



## adam1115

MX727 said:


> Five years with DirecTivo, two of those with the HR10: 1 missed recording
> 
> 3 weeks with HR22: 2 missed recordings, 8 RBR. Then we had today.
> 
> Not even a comparision.


Not missing recordings sure, but I remember about 4 months of audio dropouts and pops that made it not worth even using....


----------



## LlamaLarry

adam1115 said:


> Not missing recordings sure, but I remember about 4 months of audio dropouts and pops that made it not worth even using....


What made them stop? A software update, change in equipment on your end, stopped using optical?


----------



## tas3986

I have hr10's and a new hr21. The HR10's have a much better user interface. (At least, my wife understands it !! She is having trouble with the HR21.)

The only feature of the HR21 that is better, is the use of NNOT, CCHAN,...., advanced keyword search items. 

I hope that the new system goes back to the old menu system, and please, do not come up with yet another remote control !:grin:


----------



## inkahauts

tas3986 said:


> I have hr10's and a new hr21. The HR10's have a much better user interface. (At least, my wife understands it !! She is having trouble with the HR21.)
> 
> The only feature of the HR21 that is better, is the use of NNOT, CCHAN,...., advanced keyword search items.
> 
> I hope that the new system goes back to the old menu system, and please, do not come up with yet another remote control !:grin:


Have you ever owend a non Tivo DVR before? If not, I think as time goes on, you'll adjust and find that the HR is actually far more flexible and easy to use, like one touch recordings... You have to just use it for a while, and in 6 months, you'll never want to go back to the tivo gui... Tivo has trained people to think they have to be spoon feed and treated like every time they use their dvrs is the first time they are ever using a dvr.. Trust me, you'll get past that... You should read this thread... they will help you a lot in using the HR2xs... Theres even a link to a tivo to HR survival guide...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72648


----------



## loudo

tas3986 said:


> I have hr10's and a new hr21. The HR10's have a much better user interface. (At least, my wife understands it !! She is having trouble with the HR21.)
> 
> The only feature of the HR21 that is better, is the use of NNOT, CCHAN,...., advanced keyword search items.
> 
> I hope that the new system goes back to the old menu system, and please, do not come up with yet another remote control !:grin:


I don't ever want to see another Guide with the horrible looks of the HR10-250.


----------



## 1999cobra

If you want to see bad guide menus look at Comcasts junk ... 

As far as Tivo and D* DVR's I'll stick with D* won't cost me an extra fee every month and I won't have to shell out $650 on an initial buy in ...


----------



## kiljoy

inkahauts said:


> Have you ever owend a non Tivo DVR before? If not, I think as time goes on, you'll adjust and find that the HR is actually far more flexible and easy to use, *like one touch recordings*... You have to just use it for a while, and in 6 months, you'll never want to go back to the tivo gui... Tivo has trained people to think they have to be spoon feed and treated like every time they use their dvrs is the first time they are ever using a dvr.. Trust me, you'll get past that... You should read this thread... they will help you a lot in using the HR2xs... Theres even a link to a tivo to HR survival guide...
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72648


Maybe it's because I don't have an HR2x, but I just don't understand what this means. You mean like when you're in the guide and you press the record button to record a series (as in not just that showing, but set up a SL, one press of the record button on a show in the guide records it on the TiVo so there's no difference there)? Why would I want to ever use the guide on a DVR? I only see the guide maybe once or twice a year right now. (And I guess because I'm a TiVo fanboy, I should point out that grid-style guides are awful in my opinion.)

Tony


----------



## 1999cobra

kiljoy said:


> Maybe it's because I don't have an HR2x, but I just don't understand what this means. You mean like when you're in the guide and you press the record button to record a series (as in not just that showing, but set up a SL, one press of the record button on a show in the guide records it on the TiVo so there's no difference there)? Why would I want to ever use the guide on a DVR? I only see the guide maybe once or twice a year right now. (And I guess because I'm a TiVo fanboy, I should point out that grid-style guides are awful in my opinion.)
> 
> Tony


As one that has had and still have three Tivo units (two still sitting on a shelf in my basement) and have, and have had D* DVR's and currently have these three in service as I type HR20-700, HR21-200, HR22-100 - I think I can speak with a little more authority than you when I say: "There isn't that much difference between a Tivo and a D* DVR to warrant the extra money spent for and to keep the Tivo service"

I have also been an uninterrupted customer of D* since 1995 ... I have run in conjunction with D* Comcast cable and can say with authority that Comcast service, and equipment is PURE unadulterated JUNK ...


----------



## Brennok

1999cobra said:


> As one that has had and still have three Tivo units (two still sitting on a shelf in my basement) and have, and have had D* DVR's and currently have these three in service as I type HR20-700, HR21-200, HR22-100 - I think I can speak with a little more authority than you when I say: "There isn't that much difference between a Tivo and a D* DVR to warrant the extra money spent for and to keep the Tivo service"


As someone who has 3 R15s which are no longer active, I also don't understand why one touch recording is such a big deal. Again I think it comes down to how you utilize a DVR. As someone who timeshifts everything, I have no use for one touch recording since I am never watching live tv and as a result never using the guide.

I know eventually they are supposed to go away but as long as the D* DVR has a limit of 50 shows any extra cost imho balances out since for every 50 shows you want to record you need an additional DVR. Now if they do away with the limit before the Tivo rolls out as people keep predicting then obviously this will go back more to personal preference, but for now as long as their is a limit and you want to record more than 50 series you have to pay extra.


----------



## paulman182

I know this question will seem silly to you guys, but I've never had anything but R15s and HR2xs. How do you guys select the show you want to record without bringing the guide up on the screen? How is it done?


----------



## kiljoy

paulman182 said:


> I know this question will seem silly to you guys, but I've never had anything but R15s and HR2xs. How do you guys select the show you want to record without bringing the guide up on the screen? How is it done?


You just search for it and create the season pass. If you just want a particular showing, I guess you could go to the guide, use the feature that allows you to center the guide at the time/date/channel of your choosing, highlight the show, and then press the record button.

Edit: Since I don't know how the HR2x searches, I'll describe the TiVo way. You can search two ways, via Title or Wishlist. For the purposes of this, I'm describing the Title. You go the Find Program screen and there's a box on the left with all the letters. You highlight and select one (no triple tap, which is a great idea BTW) and on the right everything in only the channels you receive that begins with that letter appear in alphabetical order. Select the next letter and the search narrows, and so on. Once you see your show to the right, use the right arrow to move the program list and hit select and you're taken to the Season Pass configuration screen.

Wishlists allow you to specify genre (optionally) or actor, director, etc. and then a keyword. It then allows you again to only search the channels you receive for content containing that word and either auto-record it or just compile the data for you to search through. I only use this for following a sports team.

I never go to live TV ever, and I never hit the guide button unless it's a rare program that I don't have any idea what the guide data would show (like, say, the presidential debates).

I know what I want to see and haven't watched live TV since 2000 so all I do is go to the guide and set up a season pass and configure the features the way I want.

Tony


----------



## kiljoy

1999cobra said:


> As one that has had and still have three Tivo units (two still sitting on a shelf in my basement) and have, and have had D* DVR's and currently have these three in service as I type HR20-700, HR21-200, HR22-100 - I think I can speak with a little more authority than you when I say: "There isn't that much difference between a Tivo and a D* DVR to warrant the extra money spent for and to keep the Tivo service"
> 
> I have also been an uninterrupted customer of D* since 1995 ... I have run in conjunction with D* Comcast cable and can say with authority that Comcast service, and equipment is PURE unadulterated JUNK ...


Figured I should reply to this post separately.

All I wanted to know is what "one touch recording" is, since I can't think of a situation where I'd want or need any way to set up a recording that I don't already have and yet it's always cited as one of the things the HR2x does so much better than TiVo. If the answer to that question is, "STOP BASHING THE D* DVR ITS SO MUCH BETTER THAN TIVO GOD STOP ASKING" then okay, that sounds like a hell of a feature!

Oh, and yes, I've read the TiVo Owner's FAQ and it still isn't clear. How does it work and why is it an advantage?

I've been an uninterrupted DirecTV customer since 1997 so I'm sure your two years on me will definitely inform your response to a neophyte such as myself.

Tony


----------



## paulman182

Thank you, Tony, for your response.

I would prefer the HR2x method as I do often use the guide. I seldom record series TV, almost all movies, and I use either a magazine or the on-screen guide itself to tell me what is going to be on when.


----------



## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> Figured I should reply to this post separately.
> 
> All I wanted to know is what "one touch recording" is, since I can't think of a situation where I'd want or need any way to set up a recording that I don't already have and yet it's always cited as one of the things the HR2x does so much better than TiVo.


If you're in the guide or any of the various search screens you simply hit the record button once and it's setup to record. Push the record button twice and it's a season pass. And you're done. That's it.

On a Tivo it's much more convulted by selecting this and selecting that and please wait and please wait and selecting something else.

So I can go to the guide on the HR2x, hit Info say on HBO channel number and get the entire guide data for just HBO up. Then I can quickly record a dozen movies in under a minute for the next 2 weeks. On a Tivo that would take you forever to do.

Sure, if you don't ever set things to record then maybe you have no use for it. But one touch record is a feature of pretty much every single DVR out there except Tivo so it's something users come to expect. And while I don't personally use the guide that often or setup new things to record much other then when new series come up it sure is nice to do it in one or two keypresses. 

Not saying either is good or bad but I much prefer one button press to multiple and please waits.


----------



## paulman182

One-touch recording is very convenient for those of us who do use the guide, as you simply highlight a program in the guide, push "R" once to record that episode, or push "R" twice to set up a link for the whole series.

EDIT: Oops, looks like Scott beat me to the answer!


----------



## kiljoy

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I'm guessing there's a way to configure your default Season Pas-- uh, Series Links so that when you double-press record you're automatically choosing how many you're keeping, whether you want All or First Run, etc.? If so, you're right, for the channel surfer that is a pretty cool feature. I wouldn't use it, but I can definitely see why for some viewing patterns it's well-liked.

Thanks again.

Tony


----------



## t_h

kiljoy said:


> How does it work and why is it an advantage?


It works like this: your 3 year old picks up the remote control and plays with the buttons for 60 seconds and manages to add 25 recordings and series links to your dvr.

Or while trying to press the play button on the remote in the dark, you inadvertently record the show or create a series link for it, and then have to press 10 buttons to try and undo it and get back to your recording.

If you're lucky, while you're fumbling around you've also stabbed the 'list' or 'active' button or one of the other closely bunched buttons and launched yourself into some other completely different place than where you wanted to be.

Its really quite convenient.

The good news is that later in the day, your 3 year old will probably hit the '-' button a bunch of times and delete some of the shows he put on to record earlier, and some of the other pesky content.

This prevents you from running out of disk space from all the inadvertently added recordings and series links.

So its a very well thought out remote layout combined with no-confirmation single keystroke engineering that produces a considerably better product.


----------



## psweig

t_h said:


> It works like this: your 3 year old picks up the remote control and plays with the buttons for 60 seconds and manages to add 25 recordings and series links to your dvr.
> 
> Or while trying to press the play button on the remote in the dark, you inadvertently record the show or create a series link for it, and then have to press 10 buttons to try and undo it and get back to your recording.
> 
> If you're lucky, while you're fumbling around you've also stabbed the 'list' or 'active' button or one of the other closely bunched buttons and launched yourself into some other completely different place than where you wanted to be.
> 
> Its really quite convenient.
> 
> The good news is that later in the day, your 3 year old will probably hit the '-' button a bunch of times and delete some of the shows he put on to record earlier, and some of the other pesky content.
> 
> This prevents you from running out of disk space from all the inadvertently added recordings and series links.
> 
> So its a very well thought out remote layout combined with no-confirmation single keystroke engineering that produces a considerably better product.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Bushwacr

paulman182 said:


> One-touch recording is very convenient for those of us who do use the guide, as you simply highlight a program in the guide, push "R" once to record that episode, or push "R" twice to set up a link for the whole series.
> 
> EDIT: Oops, looks like Scott beat me to the answer!


I'm confused, must be because I don't hate Tivo.

But how does this differ from being in the Tivo guide and hitting the Big red button on the remote with the big R ? Is the objection and disgust with the Tivo method because of the confirmation which requires the exertion of a second button press?

Just curious not trying to start a hoorah; it's hard to believe the fanatical fervor over the one touch concept.

Although the season pass two press is a nice feature. I'll have to program that in.


----------



## 1999cobra

Another option would be (if you have networking) is to log onto the D* web site and simply do it all right from your wireless laptop and send the instructions to any one of your DVR's located throughout your house ...:eek2: Actually, you can do it with any wired or wireless device from anywhere in the World as long as you have access to the Web ...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Just a quick note... just because this off-topic thread is being allowed in this forum does not mean that you have a license to bash each other. Please be polite.


----------



## evan_s

kiljoy said:


> Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I'm guessing there's a way to configure your default Season Pas-- uh, Series Links so that when you double-press record you're automatically choosing how many you're keeping, whether you want All or First Run, etc.? If so, you're right, for the channel surfer that is a pretty cool feature. I wouldn't use it, but I can definitely see why for some viewing patterns it's well-liked.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Tony


Yes there are default settings for your series links that are used when you do a double press Record to setup a series link. It's also used when you schedule a SL recording via the website.

Additionally if you accidentally create a recording or series link just hit the record button again and it will delete it. Pretty straight forward.

As far as leaving your remote laying around and your child doing weird things that can happen with any device that doesn't have a lock on it and is not a failing of the device.


----------



## bonscott87

Bushwacr said:


> I'm confused, must be because I don't hate Tivo.
> 
> But how does this differ from being in the Tivo guide and hitting the Big red button on the remote with the big R ? Is the objection and disgust with the Tivo method because of the confirmation which requires the exertion of a second button press?
> 
> Just curious not trying to start a hoorah; it's hard to believe the fanatical fervor over the one touch concept.
> 
> Although the season pass two press is a nice feature. I'll have to program that in.


Tivo doesn't work that way. If you hit the record button you'll get a "bonk" tell you that you can't do that (you can though hit the record button on something you're currently watching, but you can't setup a season pass without going thru the menus). You have to actually hit select to select the show. All video and audio now go away and a menu is presented. You must then select at least a couple more options (or more if you're wanted to set up a season pass). And many times you get "please wait" (in particular with a new season pass) while it hangs for 30 seconds or a few minutes while adding it to your To Do list. Meanwhile you just sit there and stare at "please wait". My wife complains to no end about this whenever she uses our old DirecTivo we still have hooked up.

Or on the HR2x I can hit the record button once (or twice) and be done with it in 2 seconds, all the while never losing the program I was watching.

Needless to say I'd much rather have the HR2x way of doing things.


----------



## Shades228

Both systems are good and both are just opinion based when saying what is better when it comes to operating the unit. Both systems are easy to use it's just personal preference.


----------



## Bushwacr

bonscott87 said:


> Tivo doesn't work that way. If you hit the record button you'll get a "bonk" tell you that you can't do that ..........
> 
> Balance of response snipped as not germane to post.


Well I went to TV,

hit big green button to turn on TV (I hope this doesn't add to the count but it seemed necessary to the test),

hit Guide button, picked random show 2 hours out (Ya gotta do that dontcha?) and decided to record this future pick in the guide so I .........

hit Red Button with Big R, screen came up confirming the recording and TV went back to guide.

I got no bonk ........ and it let me do it. (I hope it's a good show)

I already agreed the season pass setup was better and I'd have to reprogram the remote so that part was unnecessary.


----------



## Shades228

Bushwacr said:


> Well I went to TV,
> 
> hit big green button to turn on TV (I hope this doesn't add to the count but it seemed necessary to the test),
> 
> hit Guide button, picked random show 2 hours out (Ya gotta do that dontcha?) and decided to record this future pick in the guide so I .........
> 
> hit Red Button with Big R, screen came up confirming the recording and TV went back to guide.
> 
> I got no bonk ........ and it let me do it. (I hope it's a good show)
> 
> I already agreed the season pass setup was better and I'd have to reprogram the remote so that part was unnecessary.


You went to record a show that you were not watching. if you want to record the show you're current watching you have to use a menu.

So to test what they're arguing about you would have to just turn the TV and DVR on then hit the red button on a show that's on which is not already being recorded.


----------



## Bushwacr

Shades228 said:


> You went to record a show that you were not watching. if you want to record the show you're current watching you have to use a menu.
> 
> So to test what they're arguing about you would have to just turn the TV and DVR on then hit the red button on a show that's on which is not already being recorded.


I thought they were arguing the finer points of recording "from the guide"? Why would I be in the guide or waste my effort going to the guide if I'm watching a show?

So,

I had TV on and had no need to hit green button ............ (saving valuable button push and harnessing my energy for the task to come)

Hit red button with big R ..............

Confirm screen came up ........ (where's my menu? I wanted a menu)

Yep I had to hit another button to confirm ............ (how will I ever get that 3 seconds back into my life?). 

YOU ARE CORRECT !!! I'm suing Tivo immediately.

Let's all hope that our world leaders don't catch wind of this ...... could have dire consequences. 

At least I can count on having a hotsy totsy glow remote and not having PIG.


----------



## Bushwacr

Shades228 said:


> Both systems are good and both are just opinion based when saying what is better when it comes to operating the unit. Both systems are easy to use it's just personal preference.


You're being too reasonable ........... grab a shovel or a pitchfork, you can't have both.

j/k


----------



## Shades228

Bushwacr said:


> You're being too reasonable ........... grab a shovel or a pitchfork, you can't have both.
> 
> j/k


What is this blasphemy? Have you never seen a spork?


----------



## Shades228

Bushwacr said:


> I thought they were arguing the finer points of recording "from the guide"? Why would I be in the guide or waste my effort going to the guide if I'm watching a show?


Because then people couldn't be arguing about TiVo vs DVR. It's not whether something makes sense it's whether you can make an argument out of it!


----------



## Bushwacr

Shades228 said:


> What is this blasphemy? Have you never seen a spork?


You mean those funky little plastic spoons with tines? I guess this means you are a fan of some other DVR magic represented by sporks?

Perhaps you are using the newly released Tivo software and need a different weapon?

You have really muddied up the water ...................


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Over the next 6-9 months...there will certainly be alot of speculation as to just how this new unit is set up and configured.

For the Tivo fans....waiting will be tough, but entertaining as the guessing game of "what's in the unit" continues.

Since this is a partnership agreement reserected from a past relationship, and both companies have their own expectations on the acceptance of the DirecTV customer market.....I anticipate the new unit will reflect a bit of the old and perhaps a bit of the new, in terms of hardware contents and User Interface.

Alot has happened since the days of the original DirecTV/Tivobox (hardware cost reductions, larger hard drives, new technology alltogether on the audio and video fronts, etc.).

While I am admittedly anything but a Tivo fan, and have used the HR10-250 in the past wiht mixed results, I can also respect and understand how excitement will build next year as a release date is forthcoming.


----------



## Bushwacr

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Over the next 6-9 months...there will certainly be alot of speculation as to just how this new unit is set up and configured.
> 
> For the Tivo fans....waiting will be tough, but entertaining as the guessing game of "what's in the unit" continues.
> 
> Since this is a partnership agreement reserected from a past relationship, and both companies have their own expectations on the acceptance of the DirecTV customer market.....I anticipate the new unit will reflect a bit of the old and perhaps a bit of the new, in terms of hardware contents and User Interface.
> 
> Alot has happened since the days of the original DirecTV/Tivobox (hardware cost reductions, larger hard drives, new technology alltogether on the audio and video fronts, etc.).
> 
> While I am admittedly anything but a Tivo fan, and have used the HR10-250 in the past wiht mixed results, I can also respect and understand how excitement will build next year as a release date is forthcoming.


You gotta run for office ......... that was beautiful. Are you a spork guy?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Bushwacr said:


> You gotta run for office ......... that was beautiful. Are you a spork guy?


Thanks...I'm trying to hone my politically-correct skills (and they needed honing). :eek2: :lol:

As one who travels around on planes alot...I have adapted to sporkism...

There...now I invented a new word...


----------



## Bushwacr

hdtvfan0001 said:


> As one who travels around on planes alot...I have adapted to sporkism...
> 
> There...now I invented a new word...


They're great unless you get tomato soup or broth ...... :lol:


----------



## rsblaski

Alan Gordon said:


> I've said this before, and others have commented on it, but I still think DirecTV needs to tell TiVo, we're going with OUR DVRs, but if you want to work with us, you can create your own boxes, sell them, and provide support for them.
> 
> That's just my opinion, nothing to get your panties in a bunch over...
> 
> ~Alan


I'm only less than half way through this thread, but from what I have read so far, this hits the nail on the head as far as my thoughts go. I think the only thing that will keep improvements coming in the HR2x series is if the development and support of the two products are completely separate...i.e. D* would continue developement of features for the HR2x series and Tivo would develop features for the D*Tivo. Perhaps I will find answers to my following concerns as I trudge through the rest of the thread.
If D* treats the Tivo version of the dvr as a "premium" level of service/hardware, it would only make sense that any additional improvements or features would stop being developed for the HR2x series. Otherwise, why offer a "premium" product at all? I get a bad feeling that the path the HR2x series is on will slowly come to a halt, and that D* will only address reliability issues in any new software updates. I fear that to get all of the things we as a group are hoping for such as MRV will only be available (for a not trivial cost) on the "premium" DirecTivo. If as some have speculated, the only differences will be in the gui and some small issues such as no PIL or PIG, along with the DLB, I can't see how these would be enough incentive to pay a monthly, or even a one time premium.
I'll look forward to seeing if any of these thoughts are addressed when I reach the end of the thread.


----------



## rsblaski

kiljoy said:


> Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I'm guessing there's a way to configure your default Season Pas-- uh, Series Links so that when you double-press record you're automatically choosing how many you're keeping, whether you want All or First Run, etc.? If so, you're right, for the channel surfer that is a pretty cool feature. I wouldn't use it, but I can definitely see why for some viewing patterns it's well-liked.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Tony


Correct. You can set up the default parameters for your recordings, such as KID (Keep until I delete), number of episodes to keep (for series links), and whether to pad the beginning or end of the recordings. I find the one touch recording (2 touch for series links) to be convenient when I catch a promo for a new show or series. I simply go into the guide, go to the date and time of the new program and press the (R)ecord button once or twice and forget about it until the show turns up in my play list. BTW, getting to a specific date and time is also easy. When in the guide, simply press the yellow button and a menu option allows you to go to the date and time you want.


----------



## kiljoy

rsblaski said:


> Correct. You can set up the default parameters for your recordings, such as KID (Keep until I delete), number of episodes to keep (for series links), and whether to pad the beginning or end of the recordings. I find the one touch recording (2 touch for series links) to be convenient when I catch a promo for a new show or series. I simply go into the guide, go to the date and time of the new program and press the (R)ecord button once or twice and forget about it until the show turns up in my play list. BTW, getting to a specific date and time is also easy. When in the guide, simply press the yellow button and a menu option allows you to go to the date and time you want.


While I still can't imagine ever being in the guide to do that, it does sound convenient if you're a surfer. I think Triple Tap in the search input screen is a much more useful timesaver if I had to rate though.

Tony


----------



## Doug Brott

rsblaski said:


> I get a bad feeling that the path the HR2x series is on will slowly come to a halt, and that D* will only address reliability issues in any new software updates. I fear that to get all of the things we as a group are hoping for such as MRV will only be available (for a not trivial cost) on the "premium" DirecTivo.


I have no such bad feeling or fear ..


----------



## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> While I still can't imagine ever being in the guide to do that, it does sound convenient if you're a surfer. I think Triple Tap in the search input screen is a much more useful timesaver if I had to rate though.
> 
> Tony


Don't need to be a surfer. I'll often see promo's for new programs when watching something recorded and I'll pull up the guide and go schedule it right then and there, while either letting the commercials continue, catch up to the show and hit pause or if I don't care that much about it let the program run in the PIG while I do it. I did that just over the weekend when I was watching Chuck recorded from the previous Monday and they had a promo for the new Christian Slater show which I had forgotten to set to record. So I simply pulled up the guide right then and there and scheduled the new show with a double press of the record button. No fuss, no muss series link set to my default preferences (including padding).


----------



## trainman

bonscott87 said:


> I'll often see promo's for new programs when watching something recorded and I'll pull up the guide and go schedule it right then and there...


TiVo's iPreview functionality allows for setting up a show to record straight from a promo, without having to muck around with the guide -- although it depends on the network putting iPreview data into their promos. (I don't know how many are doing that at present, but back when I had TiVo up until earlier this year, a fair amount of networks actually did.)


----------



## Richierich

Also, a little TIP that alot of people don't know about it that when you are in the GUIDE you can TOGGLE over to the left where the channel is and then hit the INFO Button and it will list all of the programs for that channel and then you can just PAGE DOWN to see what is coming on for that channel.

I like that Function since it doesn't have a Guide like my HR10-250s has where I can see all of the show for a certain channel, for instance if I am looking for Golf I can go to Channel 2, if not there look at Channel 5, etc. So the Info Button does about the same thing just takes a little longer for it to work or to populate the list.


----------



## rsblaski

trainman said:


> TiVo's iPreview functionality allows for setting up a show to record straight from a promo, without having to muck around with the guide -- although it depends on the network putting iPreview data into their promos. (I don't know how many are doing that at present, but back when I had TiVo up until earlier this year, a fair amount of networks actually did.)


That is one feature I liked about the HR10-250. But it was really seldom used by the broadcasters at the time. If TiVo still has that feature and the networks are using it more, that is something I would like to see again.


----------



## bonscott87

trainman said:


> TiVo's iPreview functionality allows for setting up a show to record straight from a promo, without having to muck around with the guide -- although it depends on the network putting iPreview data into their promos. (I don't know how many are doing that at present, but back when I had TiVo up until earlier this year, a fair amount of networks actually did.)


Yes, that is all nice and all but when pretty much nobody uses it then it doesn't do me a whole lot of good, does it?  In the 8 years I've owned a Tivo I think I've seen that feature come up a total of 10 times. Maybe. And most of those were for commercials (record a BMW demo commercial or something).


----------



## adam1115

LlamaLarry said:


> What made them stop? A software update, change in equipment on your end, stopped using optical?


What made them stop? Me switching to a Series 3 and canceling directv.

I gather from the forums they eventually fixed it with a software update....


----------



## kiljoy

bonscott87 said:


> Yes, that is all nice and all but when pretty much nobody uses it then it doesn't do me a whole lot of good, does it?  In the 8 years I've owned a Tivo I think I've seen that feature come up a total of 10 times. Maybe. And most of those were for commercials (record a BMW demo commercial or something).


If you've seen it ten times you've seen it more than me in my eight years of TiVo use. Pretty cool when you can use it, but in reality no network uses it consistently enough to call it a feature worth mentioning.

Tony


----------



## NickD

kiljoy said:


> If you've seen it ten times you've seen it more than me in my eight years of TiVo use. Pretty cool when you can use it, but in reality no network uses it consistently enough to call it a feature worth mentioning.
> 
> Tony


There have been plenty of times I wished for that feature, especially now when you have to wait for the show to actually be in the guide before you can set it.


----------



## Syzygy

NickD said:


> There have been plenty of times I wished for that feature, especially now when you have to wait for the show to actually be in the guide before you can set it.


If iPreview ever referred to a show that was more than 11 days out, you wouldn't be able to schedule it. You'd have to wait, just the same as if there had been no iPreview icon to click on.


----------



## NickD

Syzygy said:


> If iPreview ever referred to a show that was more than 11 days out, you wouldn't be able to schedule it. You'd have to wait, just the same as if there had been no iPreview icon to click on.


But at least with tivo I could set a wishlist for the show if I was unable to use the feature.


----------



## xtc

Can someone tell me real quick, has it been confirmed whether this new TiVo will just be a firmware update/upgrade to the current HR2x units or will this be a whole new TiVo Unit altogether?


----------



## Doug Brott

xtc said:


> Can someone tell me real quick, has it been confirmed whether this new TiVo will just be a firmware update/upgrade to the current HR2x units or will this be a whole new TiVo Unit altogether?


I can tell you that I do not know the answer .. My suspicion is that the answer will be "no, it will not be made field upgradeable" because there have to be modifications to the boot loader and that is something that would be more reliable in a controlled environment.

There may be a unit at some point that could go both ways .. but it would have some sort of new boot loader that doesn't exist on any of the hardware that we have.


----------



## jdspencer

I haven't plowed through this entire thread, but was wondering if the new unit will have the selection to use the TiVo style guide? Yeah, I know that guide style wasn't too well liked, but I prefer it on my HR10.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

jdspencer said:


> I haven't plowed through this entire thread, but was wondering if the new unit will have the selection to use the TiVo style guide? Yeah, I know that guide style wasn't too well liked, but I prefer it on my HR10.


If I had to guess I would say yes because the old units do but we don't have any information about the unit yet.


----------



## Richierich

This will definitely be a NEW DIRECTIVO DVR because they are now back in a position to move forward with what they should have done before but they were under a different mentality and ownership!!!

Once lawsuits are resolved things can go forward!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

richierich said:


> This will definitely be a NEW DIRECTIVO DVR because they are now back in a position to move forward with what they should have done before but they were under a different mentality and ownership!!!
> 
> Once lawsuits are resolved things can go forward!!!


Well it won't be the HR10-250 because there is no MPEG4 decoder .. so, yeah, it has to be a different box if they want to get HD :shrug: ..


----------



## xtc

Doug Brott said:


> Well it won't be the HR10-250 because there is no MPEG4 decoder .. so, yeah, it has to be a different box if they want to get HD :shrug: ..


not if it's just a software update to the current HR2x series. I was just wondering if there has been anything official announced about new hardware or the lack there of, and it looks like nothing has been said yet officially.


----------



## bonscott87

xtc said:


> not if it's just a software update to the current HR2x series. I was just wondering if there has been anything official announced about new hardware or the lack there of, and it looks like nothing has been said yet officially.


There has been nothing official about anything. Just that press release a couple months ago now. DirecTV has not even talked about the Tivo deal in the last couple financial calls they have had. 3rd quarter call is in a week or so, perhaps they will mention something then. Right now Tivo is the only one talking about it.


----------



## xtc

bonscott87 said:


> There has been nothing official about anything. Just that press release a couple months ago now. DirecTV has not even talked about the Tivo deal in the last couple financial calls they have had. 3rd quarter call is in a week or so, perhaps they will mention something then. Right now Tivo is the only one talking about it.


Then why doesn't TiVo say anything? I can't believe they can't give away something as general as whether it will be new hardware or a software update that's gonna make this happen.


----------



## Doug Brott

xtc said:


> Then why doesn't TiVo say anything? I can't believe they can't give away something as general as whether it will be new hardware or a software update that's gonna make this happen.


From the Press Release (which is all we have):


> Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform.


My guess is that this will NOT be field upgradable, but will perhaps be the same hardware.


----------



## inkahauts

Doug Brott said:


> From the Press Release (which is all we have):
> 
> My guess is that this will NOT be field upgradable, but will perhaps be the same hardware.


Your probably right, but it would be really good for them if they could make it so that it could simply be downloaded to all HR2x's and their future versions...

Of course, that is also what tivo is trying to do with cable boxes across the country that they can't seem to get right... :nono2:


----------



## wingrider01

inkahauts said:


> Your probably right, but it would be really good for them if they could make it so that it could simply be downloaded to all HR2x's and their future versions...
> 
> Of course, that is also what tivo is trying to do with cable boxes across the country that they can't seem to get right... :nono2:


From the same press release it states that the new tivo box will be a seperate offering and hints at a different price structure. The HR2X box and software does not appear to be going away so why mess with this?


----------



## jjohns

It can not come soon enough.


----------



## Doug Brott

jjohns said:


> It can not come soon enough.


I don't even think it will be on time .. There is plenty of TV between now and TiVo.


----------



## bonscott87

xtc said:


> Then why doesn't TiVo say anything? I can't believe they can't give away something as general as whether it will be new hardware or a software update that's gonna make this happen.


Who knows? They may not even know themselves yet. Perhaps they are testing right now to see if they can put it on the HR2x hardware and if that fails roll with a new receiver? Or for competitive reasons they don't want to reveal details. Rarely when these kinds of things are announced are their technical details because either they just don't know or they don't want to reveal it. Nothing new here.

And, usually the "big reveal" of the technical details is saved up for CES. CES is the first week or so of January so assuming they have an actual product to show (and they better if they plan to launch by end of 2009) then you'll see it at CES.


----------



## mcurrens

Doug Brott said:


> I don't even think it will be on time .. There is plenty of TV between now and TiVo.


Yes, hundreds of missed recordings between now and Tivo.


----------



## LarryFlowers

mcurrens said:


> Yes, hundreds of missed recordings between now and Tivo.


If you are missing recordings, I suggest you detail your system and your problems for assistance.

Over 80 weekly recordings spread between 2 HR series units...

Not one missed recording in the last 10 months.


----------



## loudo

jjohns said:


> It can not come soon enough.


I wouldn't be in any big hurry. Like any new equipment, it will take a while until all the bugs, found after the release, are worked out.


----------



## Doug Brott

mcurrens said:


> Yes, hundreds of missed recordings between now and Tivo.


not at my house .. If you are having this problem, then something must be wrong.


----------



## ATARI

loudo said:


> I wouldn't be in any big hurry. Like any new equipment, it will take a while until all the bugs, found after the release, are worked out.


Agreed.

Never get version 1.0 of anything.


----------



## CUDAHY

I bought the 10-250 when it first came out and have been very happy with it. I wonder if the new HD tivos will be will first be made available to current 10-250 subscribers?


----------



## Doug Brott

CUDAHY said:


> I bought the 10-250 when it first came out and have been very happy with it. I wonder if the new HD tivos will be will first be made available to current 10-250 subscribers?


Uh, not likely .. There's been a deal going on for a while to switch to an HR2x .. I would count on these deals lasting until next year.

The cost of the TiVo nor any associated TiVo Service has been announced. I suspect that it will be a non-zero fee, likely $5 and possibly per-receiver .. but, well, that's just me guessing.


----------



## mcurrens

Doug Brott said:


> not at my house .. If you are having this problem, then something must be wrong.


How many do you lose everytime they do an upgrade and lock up the DVR?

I lose about 10...


----------



## Doug Brott

mcurrens said:


> How many do you lose everytime they do an upgrade and lock up the DVR?
> 
> I lose about 10...


Well, that has happened one time and in a perfect world will never happen again .. but as for how many I lost? That would be zero across 4 different HR2x systems.

Please, let's continue this discussion, but if you do want to continue start a new thread. This is the TiVo thread ..

:backtotop


----------



## bonscott87

Yep, start a new thread so you can get some help. No missed programs over 2 years.

And pls don't think Tivo is the promised land. There are still posts nearly daily on the Tivo Community about someone having canceled recordings, blank recordings, short recordings and just plain didn't record it. So just like most people have no troubles with the HR2x but some do, the same is true for the Tivo's, most have no problems but some do.


----------



## Richierich

My 2 HR10-250s have never had blank recordings or missed recordings unless it was because of a conflict.


----------



## StephenT

This was posted over at tivocommunity on the 15th:



> New HD DTV/TiVo will be a NEW device
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I heard Tom Rogers say during a recent investors conference that the newly announced HD DTV/TiVo product will be a new device. Specifically, it will NOT be an optional software download onto the DTV DVR+ devices (like it is with the Comcast/Motorola deal). He was specifically asked this question, and he said that they put considerable thought into it and both DTV and TiVo decided an entirely new device would make it to market more quickly.
> 
> I have the link to the webcast replay where you can here it for yourself. I hesitate to post it as it is stock related. If given permission from a moderator, I will do so.
> 
> I thought this was useful information because it would dissuade me from getting DTV service now, with the expense of installing multiple HR-2X units (I would be replacing 5 standalone TiVo units), thinking that I could just "convert" those to TiVo DVRs when the new DTV/TiVo service starts next year. With this news, I will just wait and evaluate the new DTV/TiVo devices when they are released to the market.
> 
> Still, considering the delays involved with the Comcast rollout, I think DTV and TiVo made the right decision on this.


For getting to market quicker and based on the issues with Comcast I agree this is a good call. I just wish he had posted the link.

Here's the thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=406725

It's post #24.


----------



## loudo

Never lost one on either of my HR20s. Opps!! sorry, I did loose one when we lost power in the middle of a recording, but I guess having a TIVO driven unit wouldn't have made a difference in that case anyway.

I am sure we will hear something on the partnership on the third quarter report, on November 6th.


----------



## Albie

loudo said:


> I wouldn't be in any big hurry. Like any new equipment, it will take a while until all the bugs, found after the release, are worked out.


Absolutely! I find it humorous how some people seem to think this thing will be rock solid on rollout or at least much better then the HR series boxes are now.

I will be interested to see how well TIVO handles the decoding on single/simultaneous MPEG2 and MPEG4 streams, especially mixed combinations of the two.


----------



## jjohns

I would trade a new Gremlin for an old Corvette.


----------



## Albie

I also wonder if this thing will ship close to on time. I imagine a very good portion of their programming talent is still busy trying to smooth out the Comcast service and to my knowlege there hasn't even been a sighting of the Cox cable project. It would seem logical that they would be under the gun to complete the terms of those contracts before expending too many resource for the D* project.


----------



## Albie

jjohns said:


> I would trade a new Gremlin for an old Corvette.


Maybe so, but is the old Corvette compatible with the new streets/roads/tracks? And is the new Corvette going to perform the same as the old one?


----------



## bdcottle

I’ve always suspected it would be a new box. I know I would not want to develop software for a 4 year old box.


----------



## Doug Brott

StephenT said:


> This was posted over at tivocommunity on the 15th:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=406725


Yes, I've seen that post ..


----------



## StephenT

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, I've seen that post ..


Anyone find the webcast?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Albie said:


> I also wonder if this thing will ship close to on time. I imagine a very good portion of their programming talent is still busy trying to smooth out the Comcast service and to my knowlege there hasn't even been a sighting of the Cox cable project. It would seem logical that they would be under the gun to complete the terms of those contracts before expending too many resource for the D* project.


I think that's a very valid question. I'd be very surprised to see it on time.


----------



## RCY

Albie said:


> I also wonder if this thing will ship close to on time. I imagine a very good portion of their programming talent is still busy trying to smooth out the Comcast service and to my knowlege there hasn't even been a sighting of the Cox cable project. It would seem logical that they would be under the gun to complete the terms of those contracts before expending too many resource for the D* project.


No hard data, but I'm guessing the potential customer base for their D* device would dwarf any individual cable company device. I suspect they'll give lots of attention to their D* box. JMHO, YMMV, etc, etc.


----------



## RCY

While I might like the DLB that TIVO would bring to the table, I'm not likely going to spend extra $$ for a "premium" DVR. If D* can't provide a HD DVR with the functionality and stability I'm looking for, I'm not coming up with an extra $10 a month to get one.

And the points made about not jumping on a new HD DTivo are all valid. I never buy a Microsoft product until SP2 or SP3 come out for that OS. I don't care how good TIVO thinks this new box will be, there will be growing pains.


----------



## kaa1954

Ok, the CEO from TIVO was on CNBC yesterday & he mentioned the DirecTV deal...that is all he said.
But what was really interesting is that TIVO has signed on as a partner of NETFLIX. NETLIX access will now be included in new TIVO units. Will it be included in the new DirecTV box...??


----------



## bodlfed66

RCY you beat me to it. I love my hr2x's. I really want my dlb back but paying for the premium upgrade tivo box and the service is crazy. There is nothiing better on my old hr10's than my hr2x's............ except dlb. That is alot of jack for one feature.


----------



## bodlfed66

Hey shadow 18000 posts. Dude.


----------



## Richard Chalk

Doug Brott said:


> Uh, not likely .. There's been a deal going on for a while to switch to an HR2x .. I would count on these deals lasting until next year.
> 
> The cost of the TiVo nor any associated TiVo Service has been announced. I suspect that it will be a non-zero fee, likely $5 and possibly per-receiver .. but, well, that's just me guessing.


We currently pay a fee for DVR Service. If the Tivo replaces the HR20, wouldn't the Tivo fee replace the DVR service fee? Surely we wouldn't be expected to pay both????


----------



## WillieWildcat

Richard Chalk said:


> We currently pay a fee for DVR Service. If the Tivo replaces the HR20, wouldn't the Tivo fee replace the DVR service fee? Surely we wouldn't be expected to pay both????


I personally am tired of getting fee'd to death.


----------



## bonscott87

Richard Chalk said:


> We currently pay a fee for DVR Service. If the Tivo replaces the HR20, wouldn't the Tivo fee replace the DVR service fee? Surely we wouldn't be expected to pay both????


There will be an upcharge for the "premium" HD Tivo. Just like Comcast, you pay extra if you want Tivo, DVR fee doesn't cover it.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

bonscott87 said:


> There will be an upcharge for the "premium" HD Tivo. Just like Comcast, you pay extra if you want Tivo, DVR fee doesn't cover it.


Are you sure?

The DVR fee was included when I had Total Choice Plus, using my TiVo HR10-250.

The DVR fee is currently grandfathered, with Premier, and I'm still using the HR10-250.


----------



## Jhon69

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> The DVR fee was included when I had Total Choice Plus, using my TiVo HR10-250.
> 
> The DVR fee is currently grandfathered, with Premier, and I'm still using the HR10-250.


http://biz.yahoo.com/e/080903/tivo8-k.html


----------



## inkahauts

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> The DVR fee was included when I had Total Choice Plus, using my TiVo HR10-250.
> 
> The DVR fee is currently grandfathered, with Premier, and I'm still using the HR10-250.


Yes... the new units will operate under a different agreement than the old ones do... one of the main sticking points to getting the deal done I would think... Tivo wants to make more money, but there was no way Directv was going to take it out of their pockets for no reason... I suspect that the new units will follow in the path of the stand alone units... so much for the first, and dimenishing price for each there after... Say 8 bucks a month in addition to the regular dvr fee...


----------



## wingrider01

richierich said:


> My 2 HR10-250s have never had blank recordings or missed recordings unless it was because of a conflict.


Start playing the lottery regularly then, you are one of the lucky few that never had issues with the HR10


----------



## Richierich

kaa1954 said:


> Ok, the CEO from TIVO was on CNBC yesterday & he mentioned the DirecTV deal...that is all he said.
> But what was really interesting is that TIVO has signed on as a partner of NETFLIX. NETLIX access will now be included in new TIVO units. Will it be included in the new DirecTV box...??


This is because DVDs will be no longer in a very short period of time because everything is going in the direction of VIDEO ON DEMAND!!! You will not use a media source such as DVD but instead you will DOWNLOAD viewable content to your hard drive, pay a fee for a period of time and be done with it!!!


----------



## Richierich

wingrider01 said:


> Start playing the lottery regularly then, you are one of the lucky few that never had issues with the HR10


I have had an awful lot of luck with my HR10-250s except that I have had 2 hard drives die and that caused an awful lot of pain losing all those recordings.

So I added a DS3RPRO e-SATA External RAID Enclosure running RAID 1 so I won't have a problem in the future when one of my 2 hard drives fails in that enclosure. Just pull the drive out put a new one in run it so it can mirror itself again and then back to running in a normal mode!!!


----------



## bonscott87

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> The DVR fee was included when I had Total Choice Plus, using my TiVo HR10-250.
> 
> The DVR fee is currently grandfathered, with Premier, and I'm still using the HR10-250.


As already pointed out, I'm sure because that's exactly what DirecTV and Tivo said in the press releases. It is a *premium* product that will cost extra to get, just like Comcast. Take our DVR or you can have the Tivo for X bucks more. Of course, things may change, it's *at least* a year out from being available, probably longer. A lot can change between now and then, including ownership change for DirecTV which may want to can Tivo again. You just never know.


----------



## Doug Brott

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> The DVR fee was included when I had Total Choice Plus, using my TiVo HR10-250.
> 
> The DVR fee is currently grandfathered, with Premier, and I'm still using the HR10-250.


I'll never say never, but this is a new deal with TiVo .. The previous business model didn't work well to keep both DIRECTV and TiVo happy so I'd be a bit surprised if the new deal called for the same arrangement. I think that it is highly likely that the TiVo's will require an upcharge .. I just have no clue what that might be. Theoretically, TiVo will want it to at least be similar to their current standalone business model so that they can maximize their profits. In that situation, there is a per-receiver fee. It wouldn't surprise me to see a $5 TiVo fee per receiver.

That being said, I don't believe anyone official has come close to announcing any pricing for this product which, at last check, doesn't exist yet.


----------



## Richierich

I would expect to see a $5 Fee which is no Big Deal to me for a brand new MPEG-4 DVR with the latest Bells & Whistle from both Directv & TIVO!!!


----------



## t_h

Doug Brott said:


> this product which, at last check, doesn't exist yet.


I guess the good question is "Which is better, a product that doesnt exist and doesnt crash, freeze or fail to record your programs...or a product that does exist and does all of those things?" :lol:


----------



## nc88keyz

richierich said:


> I would expect to see a $5 Fee which is no Big Deal to me for a brand new MPEG-4 DVR with the latest Bells & Whistle from both Directv & TIVO!!!


I expect i will remain with the HR2x if it comes to this. We are already paying mirroring fees for over 7 boxes in the house.

add that +5 to each reciever plus the DVR fee and its not worth it.

XBMC is to the free-loader as Tivo is to Apple-TV is to the DRM-lover

Also since more than likely directv will control the OS options. You are again getting watered down tivo in Mpg4......

Time will tell. We will all be excited. Some will jump. Some will be extactic with the HR2x series by this time.

Its all about choices.


----------



## Crypter

richierich said:


> This is because DVDs will be no longer in a very short period of time because everything is going in the direction of VIDEO ON DEMAND!!! You will not use a media source such as DVD but instead you will DOWNLOAD viewable content to your hard drive, pay a fee for a period of time and be done with it!!!


Sorry but I have MAJOR problems with paying for movie downloads that I can only watch for a period of time. Physical media will always have it's place, although I will agree that some people will buy in to the whole video download thing. I for one (being a huge home theater enthusiast) will always want to physically own a copy of the movies I love and re-watch. Not to mention that it is not very feasible for movie downloads to even come close to the audio/video quality of Blu-Ray.


----------



## Syzygy

nc88keyz said:


> I expect i will remain with the HR2x if it comes to this... Some will be *ecstatic* with the HR2x series by this time [when the MPEG4 TiVo arrives].


Yeah, sure, some will be *ecstatic.* Well, maybe those few who don't do any searching (let alone autorecording)... and who also don't mind that slo-mo is so user-grouchy as to be unusable, and all trick-play buttons respond so slowly that in order to pause at a particular frame you must anticipate it by several frames.

I could go on, but typing this is depressing me.


----------



## Syzygy

*Albie*, you might not want to wait very long to revise your signature:

Grammar Primer (Yes, I am that d**k)

Lose - to misplace - e.g. Did D* just lose a satellite?
Loose - not tight - e.g. Is that coax connection loose?

Next weeks homonyms- Their and There 

*Lose *and *Loose *aren't homonyms.

In linguistics, a *homonym *is one of a group of words that share the same pronunciation but have different meanings, and are usually spelled the same. [from Wikipedia]

I don't know what to call words like Lose and Loose that are pronounced differently _and _spelled differently -- except a little tiny bit confusing .

Loose _hisses_, while lose _buzzes_.


----------



## LOCODUDE

Syzygy said:


> *Albie*, you might not want to wait very long to revise your signature:
> 
> Grammar Primer (Yes, I am that d**k)
> 
> Lose - to misplace - e.g. Did D* just lose a satellite?
> Loose - not tight - e.g. Is that coax connection loose?
> 
> Next weeks homonyms- Their and There
> 
> *Lose *and *Loose *aren't homonyms.
> 
> In linguistics, a *homonym *is one of a group of words that share the same pronunciation but have different meanings, and are usually spelled the same. I don't know what to call words like Lose and Loose that are pronounced differently _and _spelled differently -- except a little tiny bit confusing .
> 
> Loose _hisses_, while lose _buzzes_.


:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:


----------



## Albie

Syzygy said:


> *Albie*, you might not want to wait very long to revise your signature:
> 
> Grammar Primer (Yes, I am that d**k)
> 
> Lose - to misplace - e.g. Did D* just lose a satellite?
> Loose - not tight - e.g. Is that coax connection loose?
> 
> Next weeks homonyms- Their and There
> 
> *Lose *and *Loose *aren't homonyms.
> 
> In linguistics, a *homonym *is one of a group of words that share the same pronunciation but have different meanings, and are usually spelled the same. I don't know what to call words like Lose and Loose that are pronounced differently _and _spelled differently -- except a little tiny bit confusing .
> 
> Loose _hisses_, while lose _buzzes_.


You are correct. Thank you!
The actual term is homophone. Signature updated.


----------



## Nugget

Albie said:


> Lose - to misplace - e.g. Did D* just lose a satellite?
> Loose - not tight - e.g. Is that coax connection loose?


What do you expect? This is just an online message board. Nobody here is going to win the pullet surprise for their posts. Errors like mispeling "lose" as "loose" are pardon parcel with people who learn the language through talking and not through reading.

I could of made that same mistake if I hadn't learned these words through reading. Sadly, people who don't read just can't cut the muster. Alot of people would just assume watch a movie instead of read a book and it shows in there writing. For all intensive purposes these people are only exposed to new words by hearing them and they never know the proper spelling -- It's simple cause and affect. The whole concept really peeked my interest a few months ago and I found that there are lots of web sights that explain this issue in great detail.

I've come to turns with it, but the sad thing is that these loosers look like idiots. It's a doggy dog world out there and they're selling themselves short. One mispeled post to the internet and -- walla -- the whole world knows they don't read books. I don't mean that there dumb persay, just that there probably illiterate. You might think that this is all just a mute point but I prefer to air on the side of caution. I had a piffany about this and realized that learning to spell words is a right of passage that we all should go through as children. Supposably If you don't read and skip that important step you'll never be a bonified grammar nazi like me.

What can I say? People who can't spell "lose" just demonstrate that ignorance is blitz.


----------



## David MacLeod

ROTFLMAO !!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Albie said:


> You are correct. Thank you!
> The actual term is homophone. Signature updated.


Well now I can sleep well tonight. 

In the mean time...the speculation on the new device continues...


----------



## BattleScott

Nugget said:


> What do you expect? This is just an online message board. Nobody here is going to win the pullet surprise for their posts. Errors like mispeling "lose" as "loose" are pardon parcel with people who learn the language through talking and not through reading.
> 
> I could of made that same mistake if I hadn't learned these words through reading. Sadly, people who don't read just can't cut the muster. Alot of people would just assume watch a movie instead of read a book and it shows in there writing. For all intensive purposes these people are only exposed to new words by hearing them and they never know the proper spelling -- It's simple cause and affect. The whole concept really peeked my interest a few months ago and I found that there are lots of web sights that explain this issue in great detail.
> 
> I've come to turns with it, but the sad thing is that these loosers look like idiots. It's a doggy dog world out there and they're selling themselves short. One mispeled post to the internet and -- walla -- the whole world knows they don't read books. I don't mean that there dumb persay, just that there probably illiterate. You might think that this is all just a mute point but I prefer to air on the side of caution. I had a piffany about this and realized that learning to spell words is a right of passage that we all should go through as children. Supposably If you don't read and skip that important step you'll never be a bonified grammar nazi like me.
> 
> What can I say? People who can't spell "lose" just demonstrate that ignorance is blitz.


:lol: post of the century :lol:

butcept technically, "it's a moo point. like a cow's opinion, it doesnt matter."
- _joey tribbiani_


----------



## kanderna

Nugget said:


> What do you expect? This is just an online message board. Nobody here is going to win the pullet surprise for their posts. Errors like mispeling "lose" as "loose" are pardon parcel with people who learn the language through talking and not through reading.
> 
> I could of made that same mistake if I hadn't learned these words through reading. Sadly, people who don't read just can't cut the muster. Alot of people would just assume watch a movie instead of read a book and it shows in there writing. For all intensive purposes these people are only exposed to new words by hearing them and they never know the proper spelling -- It's simple cause and affect. The whole concept really peeked my interest a few months ago and I found that there are lots of web sights that explain this issue in great detail.
> 
> I've come to turns with it, but the sad thing is that these loosers look like idiots. It's a doggy dog world out there and they're selling themselves short. One mispeled post to the internet and -- walla -- the whole world knows they don't read books. I don't mean that there dumb persay, just that there probably illiterate. You might think that this is all just a mute point but I prefer to air on the side of caution. I had a piffany about this and realized that learning to spell words is a right of passage that we all should go through as children. Supposably If you don't read and skip that important step you'll never be a bonified grammar nazi like me.
> 
> What can I say? People who can't spell "lose" just demonstrate that ignorance is blitz.


Just awesome. As I began to read, I thought to myself, "I need to reply and include 'intensive purposes' and 'supposably,' but you've got me covered! :lol:


----------



## Nugget

kanderna said:


> Just awesome. As I began to read, I thought to myself, "I need to reply and include 'intensive purposes' and 'supposably,' but you've got me covered! :lol:


In retrospect, the post could have used some more apostrophe's.


----------



## ATARI

Irregardless to these grammar posts, let's get back to TiVo posting.


----------



## Lord Vader

"Irregardless"??? Please don't make me ban you.


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> "Irregardless"??? Please don't make me ban you.


Let's please get :backtotop .. If there is any banning to do it certainly won't be done by Lord Vader


----------



## Syzygy

Albie said:


> You are correct. Thank you!
> The actual term is homophone. Signature updated.


Sorry to have to report this, Albie, but your sig still needs work  :

A *homophone* is a word that is pronounced the same as another word but differs in meaning. The words may be spelled the same, such as rose (flower) and rose (past tense of "rise"), or differently, such as carat, caret, and carrot, or _two_ and _too_, or "know" and "no". A homophone is a type of homonym, although sometimes _homonym_ is used to refer only to homophones that have the same spelling but different meanings. [from Wikipedia]

By the way, and irregardless, I loved loved _love'd_ Nugget's post. LOL * 10!


----------



## br408408

I wonder when the new Tivo will come out......how much it will cost....if they ever let us have MRV, will it be able to connect to the HR2x DVR's.....oh wait, my bad for going OT, this is the spelling and grammar thread.


----------



## ccsoftball7

br408408 said:


> oh wait, my bad for going OT, this is the spelling and grammar thread.


Know...this aunt a spellin' oar grammer thred.


----------



## NOLANSKI

wingrider01 said:


> Start playing the lottery regularly then, you are one of the lucky few that never had issues with the HR10


Seriously wingrider, I had the 250 for at least 2 years posted and lurked in the related forums during that time. Sure the 250 had it's issues but they pale in comparison to the HR20X-XXX series. I never read about person after person going through one, two, or sometimes more units to get a satisfactory one with the 250s.

The HR20X-XXX series are poorly executed CE electronics as far as reliability is concerned.

They are a POC......JMTC and my expereince.


----------



## bonscott87

NOLANSKI said:


> I never read about person after person going through one, two, or sometimes more units to get a satisfactory one with the 250s.


Methinks you should go thru the Tivo archives again when the HR10 was first released.  Many went thru 2/3/4 units just to get a working HDMI port.


----------



## wingrider01

NOLANSKI said:


> Seriously wingrider, I had the 250 for at least 2 years posted and lurked in the related forums during that time. Sure the 250 had it's issues but they pale in comparison to the HR20X-XXX series. I never read about person after person going through one, two, or sometimes more units to get a satisfactory one with the 250s.
> 
> The HR20X-XXX series are poorly executed CE electronics as far as reliability is concerned.
> 
> They are a POC......JMTC and my expereince.


Go back through the archives, here and at the tivo forum, they sent me 5 before I got one that was semi-stable, never did get one that the HDMI port worked right. Still on my first Directv units. Near the end of the HR10's I got so sick and tired of hearing my kids and wife scream I was about ready to swithc to Dish or cable.


----------



## Richierich

I have 2 HR10-250s and I NEVER had a problem with either one's HDMI port but I remember alot of people did have bad ports or they went bad later. I still have my HR10-250s and don't plan on getting rid of them as I will always use them to receive OTA (CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, PBS, etc.) and record those programs on those channels in MPEG-2 HD and then use the HR21-700s & HR20-700 to record everything else in MPEG-4. That way I have 4 tuners downstairs and 6 tuners upstairs and lots of space as each HR10-250 has at least 1 TB of space.

I will keep them until Directv says that I can replace them free of charge with the new MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR slated to come out in September '09!!!


----------



## Guest

here's what I currently have in my home: (as of today)

three DVR80(SD Tivo)
two HR20s
two HR21s
one HR10-250(HD Tivo) working 
one HR20-250(HD Tivo) non-working, power on, but no lights/picture/nothing

All of the above DVRs are active on my account.

What's the best way to ensure that DirecTV will replace all of them with the
new Tivo HD DVR in 2009? (free of charge, of course)


----------



## ATARI

quietmouse said:


> What's the best way to ensure that DirecTV will replace all of them with the
> new Tivo HD DVR in 2009? (free of charge, of course)


:lol: Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## Sixto

ATARI said:


> :lol: Thanks for the laugh.


yep, i was going to sarcastically reply with "prayer" or "get a job with DirecTV and request employee discount" but decided to not post ... oh, maybe i just did


----------



## NOLANSKI

Ok I stand corrected, I did base my post on my own experience and what I read at the time in those threads. I don't remember reading anything about multiple returns from individuals. Or maybe I overlooked them as a few isolated cases.

I'm having the same type of issues with the HR20 series that Wingrider was having. I was disappointed that the Tivo was phased out because it was for us an excellent unit.


----------



## Doug Brott

quietmouse said:


> here's what I currently have in my home: (as of today)
> 
> three DVR80(SD Tivo)
> two HR20s
> two HR21s
> one HR10-250(HD Tivo) working
> one HR20-250(HD Tivo) non-working, power on, but no lights/picture/nothing
> 
> All of the above DVRs are active on my account.
> 
> What's the best way to ensure that DirecTV will replace all of them with the
> new Tivo HD DVR in 2009? (free of charge, of course)


The product is 12 months out at best and I'd say more like 16 months out .. It's safe to say there is no information about pricing yet, but I also think it's safe to answer you question with the phrase "the is no way."


----------



## dhhaines

Sixto said:


> yep, i was going to sarcastically reply with "prayer" or "get a job with DirecTV and request employee discount" but decided to not post ... oh, maybe i just did


 Actually I thought he was joking..... but I guess not. :grin:


----------



## Sixto

As long as 1) TiVo has the resources to work on the project, and 2) TiVo is committed to the project, and 3) DirecTV is committed to the project ... then I can't imagine why they can't be shipping a product by 9/30/2009.

Only time will tell.

Heck, if I was TiVo, I'd want to show a prototype at CES in January. They've already had 2 months!

For 9/30/2009, I'd bet on the under. Otherwise, one of the three points above is not true.

They announced on 9/3/2008, they have years of experience with DirecTV, if they can't ship a product within a year then the resources should be tasked elsewhere.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> As long as 1) TiVo has the resources to work on the project, and 2) TiVo is committed to the project, and 3) DirecTV is committed to the project ... then I can't imagine why they can't be shipping a product by 9/30/2009.


Given TiVo's past history I would not be nearly as optimistic. I would take 2H2009 to be EOY2009 .. and even then I think they will slip by one quarter to EO1Q2010.


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> Given TiVo's past history I would not be nearly as optimistic. I would take 2H2009 to be EOY2009 .. and even then I think they will slip by one quarter to EO1Q2010.


Then I guess you have the over 

Be an interesting next 10 months and 3 weeks. And they already have a 2+ month start.

All in fun ... as we watch the HR2x advance ...


----------



## dminches

If there was a charge for "premier TiVo" do you think that those of us who purchased lifetime TiVo for $250 way back (boy was that a great deal) would be grandfathered? After all, it is still just TiVo.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Not sure, but I would argue with them if I had the lifetime service.


----------



## SilvrDrgn

dminches said:


> If there was a charge for "premier TiVo" do you think that those of us who purchased lifetime TiVo for $250 way back (boy was that a great deal) would be grandfathered? After all, it is still just TiVo.


No. It's in the contract terms that lifetime service means lifetime of the unit. Meaning the life of the unit that you bought it for. Also, it is not transferrable to a new unit whether or not your current lifetime service unit is dead. So, if the unit you bought lifetime service for dies completely and cannot be revived, its lifetime service is over. Thus, you'll be forced into purchasing lifetime service again if you want it.


----------



## bonscott87

SilvrDrgn said:


> No. It's in the contract terms that lifetime service means lifetime of the unit. Meaning the life of the unit that you bought it for. Also, it is not transferrable to a new unit whether or not your current lifetime service unit is dead. So, if the unit you bought lifetime service for dies completely and cannot be revived, its lifetime service is over. Thus, you'll be forced into purchasing lifetime service again if you want it.


Lifetime service on DirecTivo's are on the *account* not on the *unit* like it is on the stand alones. That was changed many years ago and still is the case. So those that still have it, it covers the DVR free for all receivers on the account, even HR2x's, and even if you no longer have a DirecTivo.

As to the question, I doubt that the lifetime will cover it. Why? Because of this:

Lifetime will cover the DVR fee as it does today. This new DirecTivo unit will have an *additional* upcharge ala the Comcast Tivo's. Thus the lifetime service isn't going to cover that, but it will continue to cover the DVR fee.


----------



## dminches

SilvrDrgn said:


> No. It's in the contract terms that lifetime service means lifetime of the unit. Meaning the life of the unit that you bought it for. Also, it is not transferrable to a new unit whether or not your current lifetime service unit is dead. So, if the unit you bought lifetime service for dies completely and cannot be revived, its lifetime service is over. Thus, you'll be forced into purchasing lifetime service again if you want it.


Not true. I have long since dumped my original Sony T-60 and still have my lifetime service. I haven't paid anything for DVR service since the original $250.


----------



## SilvrDrgn

dminches said:


> Not true. I have long since dumped my original Sony T-60 and still have my lifetime service. I haven't paid anything for DVR service since the original $250.


Hhhmmm..... that's news to me. Wonder when they changed it because it was the way I stated when I signed up with DirecTV many moons ago.


----------



## Sartori

quietmouse said:


> here's what I currently have in my home: (as of today)
> 
> three DVR80(SD Tivo)
> two HR20s
> two HR21s
> one HR10-250(HD Tivo) working
> one HR20-250(HD Tivo) non-working, power on, but no lights/picture/nothing
> 
> All of the above DVRs are active on my account.
> 
> What's the best way to ensure that DirecTV will replace all of them with the
> new Tivo HD DVR in 2009? (free of charge, of course)


Good Lord Man, how do you keep track of all the programming on all those.....


----------



## Sirshagg

quietmouse said:


> here's what I currently have in my home: (as of today)
> 
> three DVR80(SD Tivo)
> two HR20s
> two HR21s
> one HR10-250(HD Tivo) working
> *one HR20-250(HD Tivo) non-working, power on, but no lights/picture/nothing*
> 
> All of the above DVRs are active on my account.
> 
> What's the best way to ensure that DirecTV will replace all of them with the
> new Tivo HD DVR in 2009? (free of charge, of course)


:scratch:


----------



## dminches

SilvrDrgn said:


> Hhhmmm..... that's news to me. Wonder when they changed it because it was the way I stated when I signed up with DirecTV many moons ago.


The original TiVo agreement discusses DVR service. I don't think it specifies TiVo. Thus, as long as you maintain DVR service you are covered under the lifetime agreement.


----------



## Doug Brott

SilvrDrgn said:


> Hhhmmm..... that's news to me. Wonder when they changed it because it was the way I stated when I signed up with DirecTV many moons ago.





dminches said:


> The original TiVo agreement discusses DVR service. I don't think it specifies TiVo. Thus, as long as you maintain DVR service you are covered under the lifetime agreement.


When DIRECTiVo's where first introduced, the Lifetime was tied to the receiver .. not too long after that, Lifetime became tied to the account, not the receiver.

I do believe that the following is also true:


You cannot purchase Lifetime DVR service today
Once you lose Lifetime DVR service, there is no way to get it back
If you purchase a package that includes DVR service, you lose Lifetime DVR service
You lose Lifetime DVR service is you remove all TiVos

(I'm not 100% sure on the last point above)

I also believe there are some folks that have lost Lifetime DVR Service by changing packages even when Lifetime DVR service should have been retained .. So, just like all grandfathered programs, if/when you change your programming, you need to be very careful that you retain your Lifetime DVR Service unless you are willing to forgo this service.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> When DIRECTiVo's where first introduced, the Lifetime was tied to the receiver .. not too long after that, Lifetime became tied to the account, not the receiver.
> 
> I do believe that the following is also true:
> 
> 
> You cannot purchase Lifetime DVR service today
> Once you lose Lifetime DVR service, there is no way to get it back
> If you purchase a package that includes DVR service, you lose Lifetime DVR service
> You lose Lifetime DVR service is you remove all TiVos
> 
> (I'm not 100% sure on the last point above)
> 
> I also believe there are some folks that have lost Lifetime DVR Service by changing packages even when Lifetime DVR service should have been retained .. So, just like all grandfathered programs, if/when you change your programming, you need to be very careful that you retain your Lifetime DVR Service unless you are willing to forgo this service.


Maybe it's just me, and I don't mean to stir the pot, but doesn't *Lifetime* kinda imply you can't lose it? :scratchin

Otherwise it just "yours until *we* decide when your Lifetime ends".

Of course my father-in-law won tires for life and they calculated that to be six sets. 

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

The thing to be sure of whenever dealing with "Lifetime" purchases, is that it's usually the lifetime of the product, not the person.
Carefully read the contract before assuming one or the other.


----------



## Doug Brott

A nice person at DIRECTV corrected me, so I am going to list the corrections to my earlier post:



Doug Brott said:


> I do believe that the following is also true:



You cannot purchase Lifetime DVR service today
*This is true*
Once you lose Lifetime DVR service, there is no way to get it back
*You can, but it is difficult. It could take a lot of effort and patience to get it back on the account.*
If you purchase a package that includes DVR service, you lose Lifetime DVR service
*Again, this is not completely true. You can retain Lifetime DVR Service, but you need to verify the transition from "old" to "new" is handled correctly*
You lose Lifetime DVR service is you remove all TiVos
*I completely blew this one  .. As long as you have one DVR on your account, Lifetime DVR service will remain*


----------



## dmurphy

Doug Brott said:


> Once you lose Lifetime DVR service, there is no way to get it back
> *You can, but it is difficult. It could take a lot of effort and patience to get it back on the account.*


Can I just say .... "+1"?

My 'primary' receiver failed about a year ago... in the process of promoting another receiver to primary, the CSR had to "rebuild" my account. As part of this, my Lifetime DVR dropped off and disappeared.

It took 3 months of nagging and explaining to get it back .... most CSRs don't know anything about the Lifetime DVR package... it was withdrawn, oh, 6 or 7 years ago, and as such, most CSRs weren't there at the time.

I ask everyone - if you're in a similar situation, please, _be patient_! Explain yourself clearly, and most of all make sure you know the month when you originally purchased the Lifetime DVR.... they can verify it by looking at your old bills (yes, they go back that far.) They will find someone who can add it back - but it's not necessarily easy. Keep in mind that we're dealing with something from an era gone by and as such, it can take a while to reinstate ... All I ask is that you don't yell at/berate/belittle/etc. the CSRs. It's really not their fault!

Keeping that date (January '02 for me) written down somewhere will help a lot - it can help definitively prove that you did pay for the service.


----------



## Sirshagg

Doug Brott said:


> Once you lose Lifetime DVR service, there is no way to get it back
> *You can, but it is difficult. It could take a lot of effort and patience to get it back on the account.*


I'm still amazed that I got this problem solved with a single email to DirecTv customer service.


----------



## inkahauts

I'll bet the the new tivo does NOT fully apply, that you will have to have the DVR service for $5 and some new Premium Tivo Charge which will be on each Tivo unit... So lifetime DVR service will not completely cover the dvr fees of the next dvrs... Tivo figured out long ago they can't survive on lifetime service fees, and they need a lot more income from Directv subs to make it worth there while as well...


----------



## NickIndy

Ok...so I know that nobody actually knows the answer to this one. But...speculate for me. Do you think when the new TiVo is released that we'll actually have MRV? I'm just thinking that since a stand alone TiVo has been able to do this for ages now that maybe it'll actually happen. They release announcing the product made it sound like it wouldn't be a crippled TiVo.


----------



## Jhon69

NickIndy said:


> Ok...so I know that nobody actually knows the answer to this one. But...speculate for me. Do you think when the new TiVo is released that we'll actually have MRV? I'm just thinking that since a stand alone TiVo has been able to do this for ages now that maybe it'll actually happen. They release announcing the product made it sound like it wouldn't be a crippled TiVo.


The new DirecTivo will have the features that Tivo wants it to have.


----------



## NickIndy

Jhon69 said:


> The new DirecTivo will have the features that Tivo wants it to have.


Yeah...that's what I'm hoping. I'm also hoping that means that I won't be able to tell the difference between using that and a stand alone TiVo HD....except of course for the DirecTV logo plastered everywhere.


----------



## Jhon69

NickIndy said:


> Yeah...that's what I'm hoping. I'm also hoping that means that I won't be able to tell the difference between using that and a stand alone TiVo HD....except of course for the DirecTV logo plastered everywhere.


Just guessing here.If Tivo allows all the features in the new DirecTivos who will buy the stand alones?.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jhon69 said:


> Just guessing here.If Tivo allows all the features in the new DirecTivos who will buy the stand alones?.


The many of us that can't stand Tivo. 

Had the old H10....vowed never again.


----------



## Jhon69

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The many of us that can't stand Tivo.
> 
> Had the old H10....vowed never again.


Don't like Tivo.Then you will have the DVR+. 

Choice is good!.


----------



## NickIndy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The many of us that can't stand Tivo.
> 
> Had the old H10....vowed never again.


I hated the H10 also. So I went to cable and bought a S3. Then when cable went to SDV and I couldn't use the S3 I came back. There was no comparison! The stand alone TiVo was far superior. Anyone who has used a recent TiVo product knows the very real differences between that and the Tivo that Directv was offering. So I'm hoping that this time around D* won't insist on limiting the features and allow TiVo to do their thing.

I also don't think TiVo would be reluctant to enable all of the features because their stand alone product isn't compatible with satellite systems. So the two products will be going after different markets.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

NickIndy said:


> I hated the H10 also. So I went to cable and bought a S3. Then when cable went to SDV and I couldn't use the S3 I came back. There was no comparison! The stand alone TiVo was far superior. Anyone who has used a recent TiVo product knows the very real differences between that and the Tivo that Directv was offering. So I'm hoping that this time around D* won't insist on limiting the features and allow TiVo to do their thing.
> 
> I also don't think TiVo would be reluctant to enable all of the features because their stand alone product isn't compatible with satellite systems. So the two products will be going after different markets.


Agree, agree, and agree again.


----------



## veryoldschool

Jhon69 said:


> Don't like Tivo.Then you will have the DVR+.
> 
> Choice is good!.


And "the Tivo MRV" will need to be compatible with what MRV is going on with the DVR+ units, when it comes.


----------



## Jhon69

veryoldschool said:


> And "the Tivo MRV" will need to be compatible with what MRV is going on with the DVR+ units, when it comes.


If Tivo and DirecTV agree I'm sure it will.


----------



## veryoldschool

Jhon69 said:


> If Tivo and DirecTV agree I'm sure it will.


Tivo would be "stupid" not to agree to a MRV that will be in place before their "new" DirecTV Tivo. Tivo will have to follow the DirecTV MRV system, or be left out.


----------



## houskamp

Do any of the tivos do streaming mrv? or is this another thing that will be a 1st for them?


----------



## inkahauts

NickIndy said:


> I hated the H10 also. So I went to cable and bought a S3. Then when cable went to SDV and I couldn't use the S3 I came back. There was no comparison! The stand alone TiVo was far superior. Anyone who has used a recent TiVo product knows the very real differences between that and the Tivo that Directv was offering. So I'm hoping that this time around D* won't insist on limiting the features and allow TiVo to do their thing.
> 
> I also don't think TiVo would be reluctant to enable all of the features because their stand alone product isn't compatible with satellite systems. So the two products will be going after different markets.


Ah, that wasn't because Directv didn't want those features.. between Tivo wanting more money that would have come directly from Directv's pockets, and hollywood said hell no to all those tivo features because they wouldn't protect any of their content.. they don't want people to make digital copies and hand it to everyone, which is what tivo would have been doing...


----------



## wingrider01

Jhon69 said:


> The new DirecTivo will have the features that Tivo wants it to have.


/rofl you have that backwards - it will have what directv wants the unit to have. directv is in the corporate drivers seat not tivo


----------



## hdtvfan0001

wingrider01 said:


> /rofl you have that backwards - it will have what directv wants the unit to have. directv is in the corporate drivers seat not tivo


Uh.......yes....


----------



## jal

Anyone hear any new news on the progress of this unit and a more specific release date?


----------



## LarryFlowers

jal said:


> Anyone hear any new news on the progress of this unit and a more specific release date?


Does the term "Vaporware" mean anything to you? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jal said:


> Anyone hear any new news on the progress of this unit and a more specific release date?


The last word was the 2nd half of 2009. I'd be surprised to see anything before 4Q 2009.


----------



## ATARI

I will be pleasantly surprised if it ships by 12-31-2009. And even if it does, I'll let others be the early adopters. So I don't plan on getting one until mid-2010.


----------



## Richierich

Larry, I think the Term Is VAPORWARE!!! As in VAPOR or an ethereal product that exists only in the mind of the beholder!!!


----------



## LarryFlowers

richierich said:


> Larry, I think the Term Is VAPORWARE!!! As in VAPOR or an ethereal product that exists only in the mind of the beholder!!!


Thanks... edited as necessary:lol: :lol:


----------



## loudo

As January approaches, the announcement anticipations are building for CES 2009. What will be announced this year?? 
http://www.rossross.net/Site/Resources/CE/Ces/CES2009.htm :jumpingja


----------



## johnp37

loudo said:


> As January approaches, the announcement anticipations are building for CES 2009. What will be announced this year??
> http://www.rossross.net/Site/Resources/CE/Ces/CES2009.htm :jumpingja


 Given the worsening economy who will be able to afford anything except the greedy scum benefitting fron the bailout. I'll be happy to be able to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. CES 2009 announcements? Are you kidding?


----------



## JayB

johnp37 said:


> Given the worsening economy who will be able to afford anything except the greedy scum benefitting fron the bailout. I'll be happy to be able to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. CES 2009 announcements? Are you kidding?


Many occupations that aren't "greedy scum" aren't effected by economic downturns - some jobs need to be done no matter what. Garbage still needs to be picked up, buses still need to run, electric poles still need to be repaired, etc. Just because some of us probably won't be very effected and are interested in buying new toys doesn't make us "greedy scum" - it makes us greedy *lucky* scum!


----------



## Jhon69

ATARI said:



> I will be pleasantly surprised if it ships by 12-31-2009. And even if it does, I'll let others be the early adopters. So I don't plan on getting one until mid-2010.


That's around my schedule too.Hope to see changes on my HR10-250 too.Have already seen some changes done on the HR10-250 with 6.4a.


----------



## Richierich

I am one of those "greedy *lucky* scumbags and I will be one of the first to get this puppy so stay tuned and I will let you know how it works!!!


----------



## CUDAHY

I'm still optimistic about a next summer release. The announcement didn't come till 8 months after Malone took over Directv; I'm guessing Tivo knew what was coming for a number of months before the announcement and has been working on it full time for the past 9 months.


----------



## wingrider01

jal said:


> Anyone hear any new news on the progress of this unit and a more specific release date?


and the crystal ball says - ask this question again in the 4th quarter of 2009.

have not seen anything else other then the specualtiona, rumors and the original information


----------



## jjohns

As DirecTV and TIVO team up for this new box, I sure hope that they put out talking points that clearly describe what parts of the receiver are being developed by DirecTV and what parts are being developed by TIVO.

One will need to know what part is being developed by DirecTV - so one will know which part to praise and say is "working fllawlessly".

As opposed to what part is being developed by TIVO - so one will know which part to rip, ridicule and claim conspiracy.


----------



## Flyrx7

jjohns said:


> As DirecTV and TIVO team up for this new box, I sure hope that they put out talking points that clearly describe what parts of the receiver are being developed by DirecTV and what parts are being developed by TIVO.


A question I have is, what are the chances that the Tivo unit will be a part of the CE program and/or if there will be a public focus group at some point to help in feature development?


----------



## raott

Flyrx7 said:


> A question I have is, what are the chances that the Tivo unit will be a part of the CE program and/or if there will be a public focus group at some point to help in feature development?


As far as the CE program here, IMO, next to none, which is a good part of the reason you see such disdain among many on this site for the new Tivo product.


----------



## dhhaines

raott said:


> As far as the CE program here, IMO, next to none, which is a good part of the reason you see such disdain among many on this site for the new Tivo product.


 Actually my disdain for the new TIVO product is the fact that the last 4 TIVO's that I've had, both Directivos and stand alones, have had to be replaced within 3 months due to harddrive failure. I could care less whether it has a CE program or not, they just haven't had a good track record for me.


----------



## Doug Brott

jjohns said:


> As DirecTV and TIVO team up for this new box, I sure hope that they put out talking points that clearly describe what parts of the receiver are being developed by DirecTV and what parts are being developed by TIVO.
> 
> One will need to know what part is being developed by DirecTV - so one will know which part to praise and say is "working fllawlessly".
> 
> As opposed to what part is being developed by TIVO - so one will know which part to rip, ridicule and claim conspiracy.


That one's easy .. pretty much all of it is being developed by TiVo .. So they can have all of the praise or all of the ridicule.


----------



## veryoldschool

Doug Brott said:


> That one's easy .. pretty much all of it is being developed by TiVo .. So they can have all of the praise or all of the ridicule.


Now you know that when something doesn't work, it will be blamed on DirecTV, since Tivo always works perfectly.


----------



## Doug Brott

raott said:


> As far as the CE program here, IMO, next to none, which is a good part of the reason you see such disdain among many on this site for the new Tivo product.


!rolling .. yeah, that's it


----------



## Stuart Sweet

No, I have other reasons for my disdain :lol:


----------



## dhhaines

veryoldschool said:


> Now you know that when something doesn't work, it will be blamed on DirecTV, since Tivo always works perfectly.


 Of course they do!!!  And the little guy is so cute too! :sure:


----------



## xIsamuTM

someone find and post that one robot chicken vid where that one guy dies watching tivo.


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> !rolling .. yeah, that's it


I have no problem standing by my statement. I have no vested interest in either Tivo nor D*.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

loudo said:


> As January approaches, the announcement anticipations are building for CES 2009. What will be announced this year??
> http://www.rossross.net/Site/Resources/CE/Ces/CES2009.htm :jumpingja


I suspect it will be much lower key than in past years...but...some of us are still planning to be there....


----------



## Jhon69

jjohns said:


> As DirecTV and TIVO team up for this new box, I sure hope that they put out talking points that clearly describe what parts of the receiver are being developed by DirecTV and what parts are being developed by TIVO.
> 
> One will need to know what part is being developed by DirecTV - so one will know which part to praise and say is "working fllawlessly".
> 
> As opposed to what part is being developed by TIVO - so one will know which part to rip, ridicule and claim conspiracy.


If you have a DirecTivo you will find that information in system info,if not Tivo lists their features at www.tivo.com .


----------



## Jhon69

Flyrx7 said:


> A question I have is, what are the chances that the Tivo unit will be a part of the CE program and/or if there will be a public focus group at some point to help in feature development?


On Tivo's website there is a section you can sign up to be a beta tester,but it also says there you can't be another company's beta tester.:eek2:

But in case that doesn't apply to DirecTV my HR10-250 is at their service.


----------



## Flyrx7

Jhon69 said:


> On Tivo's website there is a section you can sign up to be a beta tester,but it also says there you can't be another company's beta tester.:eek2:
> 
> But in case that doesn't apply to DirecTV my HR10-250 is at their service.


I looked but didn't see anything. How about a link?

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Jhon69

Flyrx7 said:


> I looked but didn't see anything. How about a link?
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


https://fieldtrials.tivo.com/signup/default.html


----------



## jjohns

Well, I finally found the correct thread regarding future Tivo D* products, so I'll ask again.

When the Tivo-D* hd dvr finally gets here, does anyonw know what - if any - will be the new place for it's technical discussions? Like right now, this forum covers D* and Tivo guys cover Tivo, but where will be the place for technical advice/discussion when the new Tivo-D* box comes on line some time in '09?


----------



## ATARI

jjohns said:


> Well, I finally found the correct thread regarding future Tivo D* products, so I'll ask again.
> 
> When the Tivo-D* hd dvr finally gets here, does anyonw know what - if any - will be the new place for it's technical discussions? Like right now, this forum covers D* and Tivo guys cover Tivo, but where will be the place for technical advice/discussion when the new Tivo-D* box comes on line some time in '09?


It will be discussed here and www.tivocommunity.com (as well as several other places as well).


----------



## johnp37

jjohns said:


> Well, I finally found the correct thread regarding future Tivo D* products, so I'll ask again.
> 
> When the Tivo-D* hd dvr finally gets here, does anyonw know what - if any - will be the new place for it's technical discussions? Like right now, this forum covers D* and Tivo guys cover Tivo, but where will be the place for technical advice/discussion when the new Tivo-D* box comes on line some time in '09?


Good question. Anyone.....anyone..... Bueller....?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

When the new product arrives, you can count on DBSTALK to be your source for news and information, just as with other DIRECTV hardware.


----------



## Doug Brott

This product is still a ways out .. I'll see if I can get more information @ CES in January .. but I don't expect to see anything for over a year from now. TiVo's own announcement gives them until the end of 2009 as it is.


----------



## hc74ch

Doug Brott said:


> This product is still a ways out .. I'll see if I can get more information @ CES in January .. but I don't expect to see anything for over a year from now. TiVo's own announcement gives them until the end of 2009 as it is.


the reason of the late 2009 time frame is not because as has been spun here tivo being slow to adapt, it is because

usb 3.0 - will be part of the system and will not be out till late 2009

the new hdmi standard - will be included and will not be available till late 2009

so please stop bashing tivo because your free rides are ending


----------



## tcusta00

[email protected] said:


> the reason of the late 2009 time frame is not because as has been spun here tivo being slow to adapt, it is because
> 
> usb 3.0 will be apart of the system and will not be out till late 2009
> 
> the new hdmi standard will be included and will not be available till late 2009
> 
> so please stop bashing tivo bacause your free ides are ending


:welcome_s to DBSTalk!!

Interesting theories you have about the reasons for those timelines. Could very well be.

What "free rides" are you referring to?


----------



## hc74ch

tcusta00 said:


> :welcome_s to DBSTalk!!
> 
> Interesting theories you have about the reasons for those timelines. Could very well be.
> 
> What "free rides" are you referring to?


theories, they are not it is simply logical thinking, why release the new tivo with old standards that will not be usable for "advanced" stuff for the next 3 years.

from all i have read here, since you have be an official beta tester with tivo and cant test others products, alot of the "toys" got by CE is going away as it relates to tivo and many do not like that and i feel has slanted their opinions in a non-fact based manner.

bottom line, is liberty / whoever ends up owning directv should just buy tivo and buy some of the "bells and whistles" from NDS and retire the PLUS line

and let the CE be done by people here as then it would be tivo and directv combined


----------



## RaceTripper

tcusta00 said:


> What "free rides" are you referring to?


+1 on that. The statement makes no sense to me. If there's something free until D*TIVO I want in on it.


----------



## Sixto

[email protected] said:


> the reason of the late 2009 time frame is not because as has been spun here tivo being slow to adapt, it is because
> 
> usb 3.0 - will be part of the system and will not be out till late 2009
> 
> the new hdmi standard - will be included and will not be available till late 2009
> 
> so please stop bashing tivo because your free rides are ending


Welcome to DBSTalk!

Be interesting to hear what else is included? TTG?

Or better way to ask ... what's in the current TiVoHD or TiVoHD XL box that will not be included in the DirecTV box?

You seem connected so all/any info would be welcome.


----------



## tcusta00

[email protected] said:


> theories, they are not it is simply logical thinking, why release the new tivo with old standards that will not be usable for "advanced" stuff for the next 3 years.
> 
> from all i have read here, since you have be an official beta tester with tivo and cant test others products, alot of the "toys" got by CE is going away as it relates to tivo and many do not like that and i feel has slanted their opinions in a non-fact based manner.
> 
> bottom line, is liberty / whoever ends up owning directv should just buy tivo and buy some of the "bells and whistles" from NDS and retire the PLUS line
> 
> and let the CE be done by people here as then it would be tivo and directv combined


Oh, okay, gotcha. Time will tell I suppose.


----------



## hc74ch

Sixto said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk!
> 
> Be interesting to hear what else is included? TTG?
> 
> Or better way to ask ... what's in the current TiVoHD or TiVoHD XL box that will not be included in the DirecTV box?
> 
> You seem connected so all/any info would be welcome.


no not connected, just using logic, i mean tivo in their hd boxes likes to have the "standards" so it just makes sense they wait till the new standards for hdmi and usb be ready before they release their directv box


----------



## Sixto

[email protected] said:


> theories, they are not it is simply logical thinking, why release the new tivo with old standards that will not be usable for "advanced" stuff for the next 3 years.


"logical thinking" may not match reality ... oh, well ... thought you had some inside source ...


----------



## evan_s

[email protected] said:


> the reason of the late 2009 time frame is not because as has been spun here tivo being slow to adapt, it is because
> 
> usb 3.0 - will be part of the system and will not be out till late 2009
> 
> the new hdmi standard - will be included and will not be available till late 2009
> 
> so please stop bashing tivo because your free rides are ending


1) it hasn't been confirmed that this will be dedicated Tivo hardware. In fact the confirmations have been the exact opposite. It will be a software layer that runs on top of the current receivers or possibly updated versions of them much like the comcast Tivo software running on the Motorola DVRs.

2) What makes USB 3.0 and the new HDMI spec so important to this new receiver that they would not release the receiver until these new specs could be included?


----------



## hc74ch

evan_s said:


> 1) it hasn't been confirmed that this will be dedicated Tivo hardware. In fact the confirmations have been the exact opposite. It will be a software layer that runs on top of the current receivers or possibly updated versions of them much like the comcast Tivo software running on the Motorola DVRs.
> 
> 2) What makes USB 3.0 and the new HDMI spec so important to this new receiver that they would not release the receiver until these new specs could be included?


the only reason they will have a version that goes on top of the current boxes is because would you imagine the waiting line to get a whole new box with tivo? it would be long

their will be a new box and also a way to run it over most of the hd dvrs of directv, ONLY to to stave off supply issues and to not piss everyone off at once that the plus line is being phased out

in this economy to liberty and if another party owns directv (unless they get smart and buy tivo) makes no $$ long term to have the plus line but in short term they add tivo on top of the plus so they not piss off the many customers who have the plus and do not want another box yet


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If the Comcast "experience" is any indication...look for DirecTV hardware (from a 3rd party manufacturer) to be running TIVO software. That would allow the autonomy that both companies tend to prefer, while "partnering" for a deliverable product. Pure speculation, or maybe an educated guess...


----------



## Sixto

Makes much sense to have one "new" box (HR24?) that can run both the current firmware and the TiVo firmware. Pure speculation.


----------



## JoshFink

dhhaines said:


> Actually my disdain for the new TIVO product is the fact that the last 4 TIVO's that I've had, both Directivos and stand alones, have had to be replaced within 3 months due to harddrive failure. I could care less whether it has a CE program or not, they just haven't had a good track record for me.


Wow, bad luck.. I still have 3 Series 1 DirecTivo's that are running strong.

Josh


----------



## evan_s

[email protected] said:


> the only reason they will have a version that goes on top of the current boxes is because would you imagine the waiting line to get a whole new box with tivo? it would be long
> 
> their will be a new box and also a way to run it over most of the hd dvrs of directv, ONLY to to stave off supply issues and to not piss everyone off at once that the plus line is being phased out


This thought process seems contradictory. If it runs on existing hardware not to piss everyone off what makes the "new Tivo" box different than the existing hardware? Can't be very much or customers with existing boxes would still be "pissed off" at getting stuck with a second rate boxes with less features etc. If the new Tivo box is functionally equivalent to the old boxes running the new Tivo software what is the point of it? It wouldn't surprise me if we had an HR24 by the time the Tivo software comes out but I don't think the 2 have to be related. I expect DirecTV to do that either way to continue incorporating newer chips and more optimized designs to continue decreasing the cost of the boxes.



> in this economy to liberty and if another party owns directv (unless they get smart and buy tivo) makes no $$ long term to have the plus line but in short term they add tivo on top of the plus so they not piss off the many customers who have the plus and do not want another box yet


I think it makes perfect sense for a Sat company that is very dependent on the receivers and DVRs to deliver their service to have direct control over both the software and hardware they need to use to be able to ensure the features and functionality they want on their time table. The original press release gives no indication that this would replace the Plus line and their current DVR software. It indicated that it would be more like the Comcast situation where it's a premium service for people who want the Tivo features and are willing to pay extra for it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

JoshFink said:


> Wow, bad luck.. I still have 3 Series 1 DirecTivo's that are running strong.
> 
> Josh


I had a similar experience of Tivobox "issues", and know of at least 3 other folks who also did....so it may not have been just about "luck"...

Perhaps they'll do a better job this time around than the HR10.


----------



## Richierich

evan_s said:


> I think it makes perfect sense for a Sat company that is very dependent on the receivers and DVRs to deliver their service to have direct control over both the software and hardware they need to use to be able to ensure the features and functionality they want on their time table. The original press release gives no indication that this would replace the Plus line and their current DVR software.
> 
> It indicated that it would be more like the Comcast situation where it's a premium service for people who want the Tivo features and are willing to pay extra for it.


There are an awful lot of TIVO customers out there who aren't satisfied and want DLB, etc. so why not partner up again with TIVO and offer a Premium DIRECTIVO DVR for those willing to pay extra for it so that they can have the Features that they want. Makes sense to me but we will have to wait to see just what FEATURES the new MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO will indeed have!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> There are an awful lot of TIVO customers out there who aren't satisfied and want DLB, etc. so why not partner up again with TIVO and offer a Premium DIRECTIVO DVR for those willing to pay extra for it so that they can have the Features that they want. Makes sense to me but we will have to wait to see just what FEATURES the new MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO will indeed have!!!


Agree with all those points.


----------



## Tom Robertson

richierich said:


> There are an awful lot of TIVO customers out there who aren't satisfied and want DLB, etc. so why not partner up again with TIVO and offer a Premium DIRECTIVO DVR for those willing to pay extra for it so that they can have the Features that they want. Makes sense to me but we will have to wait to see just what FEATURES the new MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO will indeed have!!!


? Isn't that exactly what DIRECTV and TiVo have announced? A premium DVR, based upon TiVo software (and features) that will cost more (in some form), etc?

Some details are yet to come, such as what exact hardware and what pricing, but in theory that is what is coming, I thought.

Now... who's pricing model will be used? (ie how close to TiVo's huge monthly bill will it be?)


----------



## RCY

richierich said:


> There are an awful lot of TIVO customers out there who aren't satisfied and want DLB, etc. so why not partner up again with TIVO and offer a Premium DIRECTIVO DVR for those willing to pay extra for it so that they can have the Features that they want. Makes sense to me but we will have to wait to see just what FEATURES the new MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO will indeed have!!!


Or maybe D* could actually add DLB to the HR2x. I'm already spending $$ with D* every month for a SD DVR. If I'm going to take on a new 2-year comittment *and* extra money for HD *and* $199 for a leased HD DVR, DLB is a pretty close to a must.

I can't see spending another $5 - 15 a month for a capability Dish already has in their "stock" HD DVR.


----------



## Lee L

Personally, I love TiVo, but due to the long history of sitting on a box that was way behind the times hardware wise and making more and more of them, I am not too sure you can say with any certainty that they are holding hte box due to any imprived hardware spec. In fact, if those specs are not out until later this year, there is no way any piece of electronics would be using them untill well into 2010. Heck, TiVo went ahead with the first series 3 even though M Cable cards were already comeing out when it was released.


----------



## Crypter

RCY said:


> Or maybe D* could actually add DLB to the HR2x. I'm already spending $$ with D* every month for a SD DVR. If I'm going to take on a new 2-year comittment *and* extra money for HD *and* $199 for a leased HD DVR, DLB is a pretty close to a must.
> 
> I can't see spending another $5 - 15 a month for a capability Dish already has in their "stock" HD DVR.


You will get used to not having DLB, it is not really that big a deal. I do not even remember life with DLB (from my Tivo days). It's a "nice" feature but too many people on here make a bigger deal out of it than it is. Besides the HR series has tons of other features that most DVR's don't have.

Let me also add, that once MRV is up and running on the HR boxes it will be very hard to convince me to switch. Unless TIVO also offers MRV and compatibility with the HR series boxes. Otherwise I have to upgrade 4 HDDVR's??


----------



## Doug Brott

Folks .. I know there is some overlap here, but if we're going to concentrate on DLB .. let's please move on over to the _What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?_ thread.

Thank You.


----------



## bonscott87

Wow, bringing the thread back from the dead.  Guess it needs to be updated with the following info:

1) Tivo announced at the Citi conference that it will be mid-2010 before release at the earliest. So it's been "delayed". But then most of us didn't expect it out until 2010 anyway.
2) Tivo did not show it at CES and refused to even comment on anything with DirecTV, after months of not being able to stop talking about it. So something even further wrong has happened, either problems with the build/hardware or financial issues or whatnot.

So at the least it's at least a year to year and a half from release. At worse it could be delayed or even canceled. Weird that Tivo refused to even talk about the product. DirecTV of course has never said a peep about it since the press release last summer.

So it's a long way off either way.


----------



## Doug Brott

Crypter said:


> Let me also add, that once MRV is up and running on the HR boxes it will be very hard to convince me to switch. Unless TIVO also offers MRV and compatibility with the HR series boxes. Otherwise I have to upgrade 4 HDDVR's??


Agreed .. and now availability in 2009 is in complete jeopardy ..


----------



## Doug Brott

bonscott87 said:


> 2) Tivo did not show it at CES and refused to even comment on anything with DirecTV, after months of not being able to stop talking about it. So something even further wrong has happened, either problems with the build/hardware or financial issues or whatnot.


This would be my prognosis as well .. I did get a report back on the status and the official word on the new DIRECTIVO .. "No Comment"


----------



## Bushwacr

Tom Robertson said:


> ? Isn't that exactly what DIRECTV and TiVo have announced? A premium DVR, based upon TiVo software (and features) that will cost more (in some form), etc?
> 
> Some details are yet to come, such as what exact hardware and what pricing, but in theory that is what is coming, I thought.
> 
> Now... who's pricing model will be used? (ie how close to TiVo's huge monthly bill will it be?)


What Monthly bills do you speak of?

I got two and don't pay a dime.


----------



## Richierich

Tom Robertson said:


> ? Isn't that exactly what DIRECTV and TiVo have announced? A premium DVR, based upon TiVo software (and features) that will cost more (in some form), etc?
> 
> Some details are yet to come, such as what exact hardware and what pricing, but in theory that is what is coming, I thought.
> 
> Now... who's pricing model will be used? (ie how close to TiVo's huge monthly bill will it be?)


That is what I was trying to point out that Directv may be addressing the concerns of it's customers that wasnt Tivo software and DLB with MPEG-4 capabilities and maybe 2 90 minute buffers so I am theorizing that maybe we are headed down that path even though we have no clue what the box will look like or contain.

Will it have DLB?

Will it have 90 minute buffers?

We do know that it will be on the Directv Platform whatever that means and entails.

I just installed an HR23-700 yesterday and I am very happy with it as it is FAST and works great but it doesn't have any recordings on it yet so it should be FAST at this point.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Bushwacr said:


> What Monthly bills do you speak of?
> 
> I got two and don't pay a dime.


So you paid the lifetime at some point for one if not both. The last time I looked, the lifetime cost was about 36 months of service, not transferable, and far more than the DVR fee I don't pay for DIRECTV (Still grandfathered.) (Granted, I do have a mirroring or lease fee, but I don't for a moment expect that will go away on the DIRECTiVos...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Bushwacr

Tom Robertson said:


> So you paid the lifetime at some point for one if not both. The last time I looked, the lifetime cost was about 36 months of service, not transferable, and far more than the DVR fee I don't pay for DIRECTV (Still grandfathered.) (Granted, I do have a mirroring or lease fee, but I don't for a moment expect that will go away on the DIRECTiVos...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Lifetime at $199 per unit; and transferable. What honks me off is there is nothing left to transfer it to.:lol:

The last time I called D* to add an HD DVR they quoted an uptick of $20/month.

Regards


----------



## RCY

DLB and TIVO are closely connected _*because*_ D* because did not provide the functionality for the HR2x series. Discussion of the new TIVO will lead to DLB discussion and discussion of DLB leads to the new TIVO offering.


----------



## RCY

Crypter said:


> You will get used to not having DLB, it is not really that big a deal. I do not even remember life with DLB (from my Tivo days). It's a "nice" feature but too many people on here make a bigger deal out of it than it is. Besides the HR series has tons of other features that most DVR's don't have.
> 
> Let me also add, that once MRV is up and running on the HR boxes it will be very hard to convince me to switch. Unless TIVO also offers MRV and compatibility with the HR series boxes. Otherwise I have to upgrade 4 HDDVR's??


I'm glad you don't want that feature. Since I'm the one ponying up the $$, I'll make my own judgement. My point was simply that if I'm already paying for DVR functionality, I'm not paying extra for a TIVO-based solution.

MRV is a nice-to-have, but I've gotten used to not having it.


----------



## Syzygy

evan_s said:


> 1) It hasn't been confirmed that this will be dedicated Tivo hardware. In fact the confirmations have been the exact opposite. It will be a software layer that runs on top of the current receivers or possibly updated versions of them much like the comcast Tivo software running on the Motorola DVRs...


I think that's bassackwards. Indications are that it'll be a new box. Anyway, the existing HR2* boxes are so underpowered that they can't run even the current UI with acceptable response times. TiVo software would place more demands on an already overworked CPU.

Some have said people won't like the idea of the Plus line being phased out. But judging from the lack of any bug fixes in the last couple of months, and the lack of any new features that won't generate revenue for D*, the Plus line has already reached the end of its life. It has stopped evolving. The CE versions offer no incentive to try them.


----------



## Crypter

It would also be nice to have a networked prioritizer. So that I can maintain a single prioritizer and the networked DVR's will schedule the recordings automatically on the first available Tuner on any of the connected DVR's. Since I have 4 networked HDDVR's I would like access to all 8 tuners from a single box and would like to be able to schedule recordings on all 8 tuners. Then access the recordings/tuners from any of the networked boxes. 

That would be ideal.


----------



## CUDAHY

Haven't seen any verification of a delay in the new DirecTivo HD. Also there doesn't seem to be any indication yet whether it'll be a software update or new hardware. The fact that Directv and Tivo are both refusing to comment on it is not encouraging but may not mean anything. The only thing that seems "logical" is that if it's a software update it will probably be out this year; If it's a new box it probably won't be.


----------



## evan_s

Syzygy said:


> I think that's bassackwards. Indications are that it'll be a new box. Anyway, the existing HR2* boxes are so underpowered that they can't run even the current UI with acceptable response times. TiVo software would place more demands on an already overworked CPU.
> 
> Some have said people won't like the idea of the Plus line being phased out. But judging from the lack of any bug fixes in the last couple of months, and the lack of any new features that won't generate revenue for D*, the Plus line has already reached the end of its life. It has stopped evolving. The CE versions offer no incentive to try them.


Your evaluation of the HR2x's hardware aside that doesn't change the fact that the current indications are that it will be software that will runs on the standard DirecTV hardware and not specific tivo hardware.

From the second post which is the SEC filing.


> Under the terms of our non-exclusive agreement, TiVo will develop a new version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled high definition DVR platform.


FYI- the Tivo Series 3 and the Tivo hd both use the same Broadcom chips that the HR20 and HR21/21 respectively so it's rather hard to say they are underpowered.


----------



## Doug Brott

CUDAHY said:


> Haven't seen any verification of a delay in the new DirecTivo HD. Also there doesn't seem to be any indication yet whether it'll be a software update or new hardware. The fact that Directv and Tivo are both refusing to comment on it is not encouraging but may not mean anything. The only thing that seems "logical" is that if it's a software update it will probably be out this year; If it's a new box it probably won't be.


The official word @ CES 2009 was "No Comment"

Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) used the term "Next Year" relating to when the DIRECTIVO during the Citi Global conference on January 7, 2009.

You are correct that there was no official announcement delaying the project, but short of being in neon, it looks pretty clear that there is a delay (or worse .. it could get axed).


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Some have said people won't like the idea of the Plus line being phased out. But judging from *the lack of any bug fixes in the last couple of months*, and the lack of any new features that won't generate revenue for D*, the Plus line has already reached the end of its life. It has stopped evolving. The CE versions offer no incentive to try them.


Curious why you say "the lack of any bug fixes in the last couple of months."

Update on 12/17/2008 - http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147735

Update on 11/6/2008 (just over 2 months back) - http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=144593

In any event, DIRECTV is continually improving the HR2x .. but since I've strayed I'll point out that it's time to get :backtotop


----------



## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> Curious why you say "the lack of any bug fixes in the last couple of months."


Sorry, Doug, to continue OT... this is my last response on this subject, tho.

I'm glad you agree that the update on 11/6/2008 was over 2 months ago.

The 0x2AF release, about a month ago, contained these new features:
• QuickTune (useless if you don't surf channels)
• New HD logos (who cares)
• New background screen for music channels (who cares)
• Advanced Remote Support for up to 8 remote controls (I don't care)

... and these "improvements":
• Faster Guide Scrolling (still slow)
• Support for more 1080p TV models (useful only if you buy VOD stuff)
• In QuickMenu, the "Caller ID & Msgs" is now "Caller ID" (trivial)
• In QuickMenu, the "Customer Care & Help" is now "Customer Care & Msgs" (trivial)
• Option to set the number of tuners in non-SWM setups (whazzat? Just one tuner?)
• Pop-up warning if software failure necessitates a system reboot

I hope that covers the "why".


----------



## Lord Vader

Syzygy said:


> Sorry, Doug, to continue OT... this is my last response on this subject, tho.
> 
> I'm glad you agree that the update on 11/6/2008 was over 2 months ago.
> 
> The 0x2AF release, about a month ago, contained these new features:
> • QuickTune (useless if you don't surf channels)
> • New HD logos (who cares)
> • New background screen for music channels (who cares)
> • Advanced Remote Support for up to 8 remote controls (I don't care)


While most of those new features might seem trivial to you, I can assure you that one in particular is a BIG and welcome addition to a LOT of people who have two or more receivers, and that's a majority of us.


----------



## harsh

Crypter said:


> Besides the HR series has tons of other features that most DVR's don't have.


I think that the hope is that TiVo will bring a consumer friendly and polished implementation of most of sought after DVR features (DLB, MRV, flexible multiple drive support, maybe even suggestions) to DIRECTV customers where DIRECTV seems content to focus on features that don't contribute a great deal to the DIRECTV viewing (and reviewing) experience.


----------



## kramer

Crypter said:


> You will get used to not having DLB, it is not really that big a deal. I do not even remember life with DLB (from my Tivo days). It's a "nice" feature but too many people on here make a bigger deal out of it than it is. Besides the HR series has tons of other features that most DVR's don't have.
> 
> Let me also add, that once MRV is up and running on the HR boxes it will be very hard to convince me to switch. Unless TIVO also offers MRV and compatibility with the HR series boxes. Otherwise I have to upgrade 4 HDDVR's??


Maybe for you but not for the rest of us, get off your high horse on what is a big deal to the rest of us.

MRV has been promised for along time and wants it comes along in the next year the HRXX will still be for behind in features.


----------



## kramer

bonscott87 said:


> Wow, bringing the thread back from the dead.  ./QUOTE]
> 
> Yes since E* announced a DVR that one ups D* at CES why do you think this thread would not come back to life since this is the only thread mods will allow to post Tivo stuff! Oh yeah and the Tivo is the only way that D* can compete since HRXX is not the answer. Sorry all you CE'ers but the HRXX after two and a half years it still is not ready for prime time.
> 
> Yes I know I will get flamed but get tired of the fan boys on this thread; mine's perfect, never missed a recording, DLB sucks and my favorite " you must have a bad box"
> 
> Sorry all just letting off steam since I come here for information just like everyone else.


----------



## harsh

kramer said:


> MRV has been promised for along time and wants it comes along in the next year the HRXX will still be for behind in features.


Could you offer a link to the promise of MRV?


----------



## Doug Brott

kramer said:


> Sorry all you [*Yahoos**] but the HRXX after two and a half years it still is not ready for prime time.


Speak for yourself .. I've been happy with my HD local for the past two and a half years and the 15 or so months of national HDs

Now, that being said .. this thread is about the TiVo, right?

* - *Yahoos* is my word, not the OPs


----------



## kramer

harsh said:


> Could you offer a link to the promise of MRV?


Nothing more than what you have already read on this board but since this is the only outlet of information of D*, one would think it would come or D* will go out of business.


----------



## kramer

Doug Brott said:


> Speak for yourself .. I've been happy with my HD local for the past two and a half years and the 15 or so months of national HDs
> 
> Now, that being said .. this thread is about the TiVo, right?
> 
> * - *Yahoos* is my word, not the OPs


Doug - Yes it is about Tivo on this thread and was only pointing out that after 2 1/2 years HRXX still lacks features that where available before it came out not to point out the advancement in the DVR world.

Sorry if I cam across in another way.


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> The official word @ CES 2009 was "No Comment"
> 
> Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) used the term "Next Year" relating to when the DIRECTIVO during the Citi Global conference on January 7, 2009.
> 
> You are correct that there was no official announcement delaying the project, but short of being in neon, it looks pretty clear that there is a delay (or worse .. it could get axed).


Why?.You don't think DirecTV is the only one with NDA's in place do you?.

Sure am glad DirecTV told us about the HR23 before it came out?

If it turns to vaporware then John Malone's name is Charlie.:sure:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> The official word @ CES 2009 was "No Comment"
> 
> Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) used the term "Next Year" relating to when the DIRECTIVO during the Citi Global conference on January 7, 2009.
> 
> You are correct that there was no official announcement delaying the project, but short of being in neon, it looks pretty clear that there is a delay (or worse .. it could get axed).


Slow economy...check...

TIVO typically delivers later than first announced.....check...

No "urgency" on this project really, so while it's a nice idea, perhaps it's lower on the "list of to-do's"...check...

Delivery now in 2010....no surprise...

So we can continue to speculate away now knowing its a year or more into the future...


----------



## poppo

kramer said:


> Sorry all you CE'ers but the HRXX after two and a half years it still is not ready for prime time.
> 
> Yes I know I will get flamed but get tired of the fan boys on this thread; mine's perfect, never missed a recording, DLB sucks and my favorite " you must have a bad box"


Well, what can I say is I have 3 HR20s that have never missed a recording, I don't care about DLB, and if yours is is not at least twice as fast as the HR-10 (which I also had 3) then 'you must have a bad box' .:lol:


----------



## rahlquist

Jhon69 said:


> Sure am glad DirecTV told us about the HR23 before it came out?


Me too I loved the first look

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=144256


----------



## bonscott87

Jhon69 said:


> Sure am glad DirecTV told us about the HR23 before it came out?


Riiiiight. Somehow I don't think a company needs to have a press release or talk about for every minor hardware revision they have. There is probably an HR24 getting ready as we speak.

But anything major, any major change usually gets talked about in investor meetings and such. DirecTV has talked a lot about their future hardware platform including their whole home platform. But not a peep about Tivo.


----------



## bonscott87

kramer said:


> Yes since E* announced a DVR that one ups D*


LOL. I think many people would say that E* DVRs have been "one up" on DirecTV for quite some time. So does that make them "two up" now?

Frankly E* being thought of as "ahead" in the DVR space technically is certainly nothing new and a widely held by many.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jhon69 said:


> Why?.You don't think DirecTV is the only one with NDA's in place do you?.


huh? TiVo already announced their product 4 months back .. It's not like it's a secret. A "No comment" is not a good thing here. It could mean that the product has actually been canceled .. It is almost certainly delayed regardless.

Also TiVo's CEO specifically said "Next Year" either as a slip or a way to purposefully set expectations. It's 2010 now .. The only way this is seen in 2009 at all is via some sort of "first look" from someone. Personally I'm not holding my breath on this one.



Jhon69 said:


> Sure am glad DirecTV told us about the HR23 before it came out?


You mean the First Look we posted 6 weeks before these things started to become common?



Jhon69 said:


> If it turns to vaporware then John Malone's name is Charlie.:sure:


Surely you mean Tom Rogers and not John Malone .. This is a TiVo product.

John Malone is Liberty's Chairman - Greg Maffei is CEO
Chase Carey is DIRECTV's CEO


----------



## Richierich

Well, I am glad about this addition, "Advanced Remote Support for up to 8 remote controls". I just used it yesterday and it works great.

And I am not a FanBoy but I am liking this HR23-700 alot and if I can just get MRV I will be THRILLED until I have a chance to get the new MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO if it has DLB, MRV, and all of the other TIVO goodies or will it be a slimmed down version with an inadequate Processor.

Who knows but I will wait and see!


----------



## Sixto

A new hardware base (HR24?) with newer Broadcom processor (BCM7400B/BCM7335/BCM7420?) that double/triples the performance (DMIPS) with any specific chips that TiVo might need would be a good start.

Make the box the standard box for both the DirecTV firmware and the TiVo firmware.

Have the TiVo code provide EVERY feature that the TiVoHD currently provides, except for anything that is a major conflict with DirecTV's business model. MRV, TTG and TiVo Desktop support a must.

Include any new 2009 TiVo feature, such as the new TiVo Search (and TiVo HD GUI?).

Include the major DirecTV features (MPEG4, SWM, DOD, Online Scheduling, Interactive, ...).

Provide all of the above and it will get a serious look here. Otherwise, not relevant.


----------



## Doug Brott

Don't forget the newfangled pizza ordering system


----------



## Richierich

God, I just LOVE PIZZA!!! :lol:

Especially with a Glass Of Good Wine!!!


----------



## Jhon69

bonscott87 said:


> Riiiiight. Somehow I don't think a company needs to have a press release or talk about for every minor hardware revision they have. There is probably an HR24 getting ready as we speak.
> 
> But anything major, any major change usually gets talked about in investor meetings and such. DirecTV has talked a lot about their future hardware platform including their whole home platform. But not a peep about Tivo.


That's basically what I meant.DirecTV does testing behind closed doors so why not Tivo?.


----------



## say-what

Jhon69 said:


> That's basically what I meant.DirecTV does testing behind closed doors so why not Tivo?.


I'm sure TIVO does, but companies don't usually go "no comment" about a highly touted new product they've announced. At the very least you get a non-commital confirmation that they're working on it.


----------



## Jhon69

say-what said:


> I'm sure TIVO does, but companies don't usually go "no comment" about a highly touted new product they've announced. At the very least you get a non-commital confirmation that they're working on it.


So gloom and doom it is.

knowing how tight John Malone is and Charlie too.Hey maybe there is a 922 in DirecTV's future.


----------



## rawilson

I've suffered through almost a year and a half with my HR20....still watch more TV on my old SD Tivo unit. If they don't have a Tivo based solution (or at least DLB) when my 2 years are up, I'm gone.


----------



## Syzygy

Sixto said:


> A new hardware base (HR24?) with newer Broadcom processor (BCM7400B/BCM7335/BCM7420?) that double/triples the performance (DMIPS) with any specific chips that TiVo might need would be a good start.


Yeah! That's what I was thinking!



> _Make the box the standard box for both the DirecTV firmware and the TiVo firmware.
> 
> Have the TiVo code provide EVERY feature that the TiVoHD currently provides, except for anything that is a major conflict with *DirecTV's business model*..._


No, no, no! Don't accept searches that always include VOD and channels you don't get. Don't accept autorecords that sometimes record dead air (or is it dead space?).


----------



## Doug Brott

Regardless of what the box is, I do expect it to work for both TiVo and DIRECTV firmwares .. There really is no reason for TiVo to get back into the hardware business .. Heck, even DIRECTV isn't in the hardware business per se, they outsource to Audiovox, Samsung and Pace to name a few.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Regardless of what the box is, I do expect it to work for both TiVo and DIRECTV firmwares .. There really is no reason for TiVo to get back into the hardware business .. Heck, even DIRECTV isn't in the hardware business per se, they outsource to Audiovox, Samsung and Pace to name a few.


That's what I'd anticipate too....oops.....


----------



## harsh

kramer said:


> Nothing more than what you have already read on this board but since this is the only outlet of information of D*, one would think it would come or D* will go out of business.


DIRECTV's fortunes do not hinge on MRV.

They _haven't_ promised MRV but they seem to be making some small steps towards that goal as part of their relatively public testing program.

Even when they do get MRV up and running, only a relatively small minority of DIRECTV's customers (those with an HD DVR and at least one other HD box) will be able to use it.


----------



## runner26

Gimme, gimme, gimme. I can't get rid of this HRxx crap fast enough!!!!!!!! I had tivo based receivers for five years and zero problems. With the HRxx junk it has turned tv viewing into an on going CHORE! I live in terror of the next "update".


----------



## RaceTripper

rawilson said:


> I've suffered through almost a year and a half with my HR20....still watch more TV on my old SD Tivo unit. If they don't have a Tivo based solution (or at least DLB) when my 2 years are up, I'm gone.


I'm of similar sentiment. I've been a customer for 10+ years. At the end of this year my commitment is up. If there isn't a compelling upgrade to my three HR20/HR1 receivers that I can get cheap or free, then I plan to try something else. Maybe Dish, maybe just AppleTV/Netflix streaming, maybe nothing. In any case, I don't want to continue paying what I do for old tech.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

runner26 said:


> Gimme, gimme, gimme. I can't get rid of this HRxx crap fast enough!!!!!!!! I had tivo based receivers for five years and zero problems. With the HRxx junk it has turned tv viewer into an on going CHORE! I live in terror of the next "update".


Somebody needs to lay off those extra cups of coffee each morning....:lol:


----------



## loudo

What ever they do is fine with me, but I hope they stick with the current DirecTV guide. My TIVO unit was OK, I didn't have many problems with it and don't have many with my HRXX units, but the TIVO guide was horrible.


----------



## bonscott87

So if you want every feature that Tivo HD has, does that mean you want ads plastered all over the place like Tivo Central as well?


----------



## Richierich

harsh said:


> DIRECTV's fortunes do not hinge on MRV.
> 
> They _haven't_ promised MRV but they seem to be making some small steps towards that goal as part of their relatively public testing program.
> 
> Even when they do get MRV up and running, only a relatively small minority of DIRECTV's customers (those with an HD DVR and at least one other HD box) will be able to use it.


You forgot to add the fact that how many people will be able to successfully Network their DVRs or to be willing to do so at a very sizeable expense for alot of people in order to enjoy MRV!!!


----------



## Chad Dyess

This time last year my DirecTV DVR's were so unstable I'd say I couldn't wait to switch back to Tivo. Now that they seem to have worked out the kinks, I don't think I'll pony up the extra dough to buy a new Tivo then pay whatever subscription fee they'll charge.


----------



## kiwiquest

I must say that with the announcement of Tivo and DirecTV putting out a new Directivo (months ago)....I was totally pumped, and i was waiting with eager anticipation to see something from Tivo or Dtv around the CES time, maybe a prototype. And now we are hearing nothing at all??? It would be the right thing to do to at least let your customers know what is going on....will there be a unit out in 2009? 2010? ever?? The lack of communication is a PR nightmare, with Dish releasing all kinds of cool and innovative new hardware.


----------



## bonscott87

kiwiquest said:


> I must say that with the announcement of Tivo and DirecTV putting out a new Directivo (months ago)....I was totally pumped, and i was waiting with eager anticipation to see something from Tivo or Dtv around the CES time, maybe a prototype. And now we are hearing nothing at all??? It would be the right thing to do to at least let your customers know what is going on....will there be a unit out in 2009? 2010? ever?? The lack of communication is a PR nightmare, with Dish releasing all kinds of cool and innovative new hardware.


While not an official press release or anything Tivo did state at the Citi conference that it was delayed until 2010. And Tivo has talked it up a lot in various investor and business calls over the fall and winter. But their silence now is certainly not a good sign.

DirecTV has never said a thing about this deal other then the initial press release, it's pretty obvious they don't really care about it one way or another about it and it's up to Tivo to deliver.

People get waaaaaaayyy too excited and into little press releases like this. I've learned my lesson many times over the years with many companies to never trust a press release. I *never* make decisions based on press releases. It's only vaporware until it's actually available. Even hardware actually shown at a CES ends up being vaporware half the time.


----------



## groove93

One must also take into account the fact that when we asked of a possible re-marriage of Tivo and D*, we were repeatedly told, "When Hell Freezes Over". So, when the announcement of the contrary arrives, you get a rather large thread such as this one.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

When I'd see a prototype built and reviewed, then perhaps I'd start to "believe"...


----------



## m4p

I never had a Tivo based DVR before. Then yesterday my sister gave me her Directv Tivo based DVR (a Huges DVR40) which I installed in the bedroom. I have an HR20-700 in the living room, which was my first foray into DVR's. 

I have to say that the HR20 seems so much more polished, easier to record shows, etc., more responsive, etc. Other than have DLB, I don't see any reason to go with Tivo. In fact, for now I like my HR20's SLB because it's 90 minutes whereas the buffers in the DVR40 are only 30 minutes. Still would love to have DLB in the HR20, but I've been wishing that for 2 years now. Anyway, just wanted to give my opinion here.


----------



## Doug Brott

groove93 said:


> One must also take into account the fact that when we asked of a possible re-marriage of Tivo and D*, we were repeatedly told, "When Hell Freezes Over". So, when the announcement of the contrary arrives, you get a rather large thread such as this one.


Which believe it or not was true at the time .. well, the business climate changed and what seemed impossible changed to .. maybe. Especially since even TiVo has gone from touting their new DVR to "no comment."


----------



## Doug Brott

m4p said:


> I never had a Tivo based DVR before. Then yesterday my sister gave me her Directv Tivo based DVR (a Huges DVR40) which I installed in the bedroom. I have an HR20-700 in the living room, which was my first foray into DVR's.
> 
> I have to say that the HR20 seems so much more polished, easier to record shows, etc., more responsive, etc. Other than have DLB, I don't see any reason to go with Tivo. In fact, for now I like my HR20's SLB because it's 90 minutes whereas the buffers in the DVR40 are only 30 minutes. Still would love to have DLB in the HR20, but I've been wishing that for 2 years now. Anyway, just wanted to give my opinion here.


This may end up being the sentiment of many people .. including those that had TiVo.


----------



## LOCODUDE

Well for what it is worth " I want to believe"........


----------



## kramer

m4p said:


> I never had a Tivo based DVR before. Then yesterday my sister gave me her Directv Tivo based DVR (a Huges DVR40) which I installed in the bedroom. I have an HR20-700 in the living room, which was my first foray into DVR's.
> 
> I have to say that the HR20 seems so much more polished, easier to record shows, etc., more responsive, etc. Other than have DLB, I don't see any reason to go with Tivo. In fact, for now I like my HR20's SLB because it's 90 minutes whereas the buffers in the DVR40 are only 30 minutes. Still would love to have DLB in the HR20, but I've been wishing that for 2 years now. Anyway, just wanted to give my opinion here.


Your comparing a 7 year device to a current model and your wonder why it is more polished?


----------



## Tom Robertson

kramer said:


> Your comparing a 7 year device to a current model and your wonder why it is more polished?


Very likely the DIRECTiVo is fairly current with software polish. Or it wouldn't work on the current guide data. 

(Granted, it might not have swivel search.)


----------



## kramer

harsh said:


> DIRECTV's fortunes do not hinge on MRV.
> 
> They _haven't_ promised MRV but they seem to be making some small steps towards that goal as part of their relatively public testing program.
> 
> Even when they do get MRV up and running, only a relatively small minority of DIRECTV's customers (those with an HD DVR and at least one other HD box) will be able to use it.


Did not say D* fortunes hinged on MRV but the do need to stay competitive with competition.

In at this time they are starting to fall behind not only HD content but DVR is falling short.


----------



## Tom Robertson

kramer said:


> Did not say D* fortunes hinged on MRV but the do need to stay competitive with competition.
> 
> In at this time they are starting to fall behind not only HD content but DVR is falling short.


I rather disagree. DIRECTV is catching up very rapidly with DVRs that have been out much longer. And adding new features, fresher UIs, and simpler to use generally.

We have every sign MRV is coming soon and along the way we have Media Share, and DIRECTV2PC HD playback coming. In fact, DLNA compliant clients can stream from HR2x today. (Unfortunately, none of the DLNA clients are compliant with the optional copy protection piece.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> This may end up being the sentiment of many people .. including those that had TiVo.


The only way that DirecTV can bury the DirecTivo memory is to put DLB on the HRxx/R22 series and to repair the basic functions to the DVR that many are still having issues with.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jhon69 said:


> The only way that DirecTV can bury the DirecTivo memory is to put DLB on the HRxx/R22 series and to repair the basic functions to the DVR that many are still having issues with.


Oh, there will be folks that want the TiVo no matter what. That is clear just from the discussion here. I'm more talking about the bigger picture. Many folks will have never even seen the TiVo let alone used it. To them, the HR2x IS a TiVo even though it's not.

In other cases, if there is an upcharge for TiVo then they may simply stick with the HR2x.


----------



## prospero63

Tom Robertson said:


> I rather disagree. DIRECTV is catching up very rapidly with DVRs that have been out much longer. And adding new features, fresher UIs, and simpler to use generally.
> 
> We have every sign MRV is coming soon and along the way we have Media Share, and DIRECTV2PC HD playback coming. In fact, DLNA compliant clients can stream from HR2x today. (Unfortunately, none of the DLNA clients are compliant with the optional copy protection piece.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I guess I find it ironic that in one paragraph you state that DirecTV is catching up, then proceed to list vaporware (MRV) and all sorts of "coming soon" features. And yes, until MRV is out of testing and functional on all units, it's vaporware. Same with DLB. And how long have folks been waiting for both? 2 years? 3? 4? It hardly counts as "catching up" when a company shows up 2-4 years later with functionality that the competition has had for years. While DirecTV is busy playing catch-up (and based on the lead times it takes for new features, they seem to really like that role), their competition is innovating. One of the many reasons that DirecTV is ranking lower in customer satisfaction than their competition...


----------



## nickff

Having owned both a TiVo S3 and an Directv HR DVR, I must say I don't miss the S3. The only feature I wish I still had is the deleted folder. So basic, but yet...

Just be glad you don't have to use ComCrap's Moto DVRs.


----------



## vikingguy

I am bummed that the tivo has been delayed to 2010 but not suprised. I just wish direct would get its DVR right so I don't need a tivo. I just get tired of these crappy updates were I miss most of my recordings. I just wish I could refuse updates if my DVR is working just fine. I see no reason to update unless MRV or DLB goes live if my DVR is rock solid which it was till this last update.


----------



## wingrider01

hdtvfan0001 said:


> When I'd see a prototype built and reviewed, then perhaps I'd start to "believe"...


Need to alter that - when the first unit rolls off the production line and the product is in the end users hands then believe it. Given the the recent death of the pc hardware version of the directv reciever this conidtional acceptance is light years more accurate then just seeing a prototype


----------



## bonscott87

prospero63 said:


> And yes, until MRV is out of testing and functional on all units, it's vaporware.


Whatever you say. I've been using MRV for a couple months now. 



> Same with DLB.


DirecTV has stated that DLB isn't coming. Anyone waiting around for DLB is frankly fooling themselves at this point. But hey, you never know. But go to the large DLB thread to discuss that.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

prospero63 said:


> ...until MRV is out of testing and functional on all units, it's vaporware.


Perhaps the more accurate term would have been "betaware"...


bonscott87 said:


> Whatever you say. I've been using MRV for a couple months now.


Mainstream access to MRV is not all that far away...


----------



## Doug Brott

prospero63 said:


> One of the many reasons that DirecTV is ranking lower in customer satisfaction than their competition...


Any links to that? Everything I've seen has DIRECTV on top ..


----------



## FireDog

I loved my Tivo but since I switched to Vonage have not been able to use it. I hope the D-Tivo will work with Vonage or I will have to stay with my HR21.


----------



## RaceTripper

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Mainstream access to MRV is not all that far away...


The biggest thing I care about is MRV for my two HR20s and HR21, but I don't think I'll go with TIVO if it's a premium service over what I have now.

When my current commitment is up, if there are no really compelling upgrades from where I am now I may try something else. DISH has a HD only subscription I might go for. At this point the only thing I watch that isn't on an HD channel is Top Gear on BBC and MSNBC, and the latter will be HD in a couple months.


----------



## loudo

RaceTripper said:


> When my current commitment is up, if there are no really compelling upgrades from where I am now I may try something else. DISH has a HD only subscription I might go for. At this point the only thing I watch that isn't on an HD channel is Top Gear on BBC and MSNBC, and the latter will be HD in a couple months.


Just curious, what upgrades would you be looking for?


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> Just curious, what upgrades would you be looking for?


Not necessarily in order. Some ideas.

MRV as I mentioned.
Better lipsynch between HDMI and coax/optical audio
Improved video quality.
Faster processing/response times is a big one. Features mean nothing if I give up using them because they are too slow. 
Netflix streaming would be nice (understand that's not entirely up to D*)
More 1080p content.
A real desktop scheduler, not the sorry excuse for the crappy webapp that's on their website.
iPod integration
Better search and scheduling.
Better/official support for expanded capacity (instead of dealing with the magic eSATA combinations that work).
Built-in Wireless N.
A scalar that's better than the one in my TV.

Something really great I haven't thought of. Something visionary!


----------



## Lord Vader

FireDog said:


> I loved my Tivo but since I switched to Vonage have not been able to use it. I hope the D-Tivo will work with Vonage or I will have to stay with my HR21.


I switched to Vonage in February 2006 and have never had one problem with my DTIVOs working with Vonage.


----------



## Tom Robertson

prospero63 said:


> I guess I find it ironic that in one paragraph you state that DirecTV is catching up, then proceed to list vaporware (MRV) and all sorts of "coming soon" features. And yes, until MRV is out of testing and functional on all units, it's vaporware. Same with DLB. And how long have folks been waiting for both? 2 years? 3? 4? It hardly counts as "catching up" when a company shows up 2-4 years later with functionality that the competition has had for years. While DirecTV is busy playing catch-up (and based on the lead times it takes for new features, they seem to really like that role), their competition is innovating. One of the many reasons that DirecTV is ranking lower in customer satisfaction than their competition...


Oh how we've forgotten the history of the term vaporware. 

Vaporware used to be things that were floated as marketing balloons. Items that potential for never seeing the light of day.

Now you (and a few others) are applying the term to active projects that have a very public path of successes (including necessary components that are already nationally released to all HR2x units).

The path to MRV is: 1) make a client (or a server); 2) make a server (or a client) ; 3) Marry the two together with a GUI. DIRECTV has #1 done--Media Share. All HR2x can support displaying media as a client using a upcoming standard, DLNA.

All HR2x can also serve media. Granted, the DIRECTV client is now in large-scale beta testing, the server can connect to any fully DLNA compliant client. (Unfortunately, the majority of clients don't support the copy protection part of DLNA, so DIRECTV is taking care of that too.)

(By the way... at this point does any other shipping DVR have the ability to serve DLNA in national release?) Dish has talked about it for 12 months since last year's CES. Is it launched yet?

So, looking at my path to MRV we see a couple things: 1) DIRECTV is actively working on it. 2) Using public standards, not proprietary technologies. 3) DIRECTV is clearly very close to a full product. The heavy lifting is done, do you think it is really vaporware at this point? 4) You have been told and know that it is in public testing here. This is not vaporware.

Therefore, yes I think DIRECTV is very quickly catching up to people who've been shipping their own DVR software for many years. They've innovated the UI for simpler use. They've developed side products along the way, some the others don't have.

Dish has announced products that haven't shipped today. That I expect will ship, btw. I don't call their products vaporware, but you should at least be consistent, I should think. 

Is DIRECTV fully caught up? Noper. But I do think they are catching up very quickly. Leading in some areas, catching up in others.

(I am glad Dish is an active competitor. We all benefit from improvements and the competition.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

RaceTripper said:


> Not necessarily in order. Some ideas.
> 
> *MRV as I mentioned.*
> Better lipsynch between HDMI and coax/optical audio
> *Improved video quality.*
> *Faster processing/response times* is a big one. Features mean nothing if I give up using them because they are too slow.
> Netflix streaming would be nice (understand that's not entirely up to D*)
> *More 1080p content.*
> A real desktop scheduler, not the sorry excuse for the crappy webapp that's on their website.
> *iPod integration*
> Better search and scheduling.
> Better/official support for expanded capacity (instead of dealing with the magic eSATA combinations that work).
> Built-in Wireless N.
> A scalar that's better than the one in my TV.
> 
> Something really great I haven't thought of. Something visionary!


Your list for me ...

MRV is on the way.
New Broadcom chip to double/triple performance which probably also helps the video.
More 1080p is probably on the horizon.
The need for more advanced eSATA probably isn't necessary with 1TB now $100. Future boxes will probably have 750GB or 1TB standard.
And DirecTV2Go.

And I'd add a true "pro" remote with tactile feedback.

Add all of the above and the HR2x is golden. (for me)

*Edit:* Oh, and a "cool" HD GUI would be nice too!


----------



## loudo

RaceTripper said:


> Not necessarily in order. Some ideas.
> Netflix streaming would be nice (understand that's not entirely up to D*)


 As DirecTV offers their own PPV movies, I don't see this a very likely feature.


RaceTripper said:


> A real desktop scheduler, not the sorry excuse for the crappy webapp that's on their website.


 I don't think what they have is that bad. I have been using the current system a lot with no problem.


RaceTripper said:


> Built-in Wireless N.


For the few that would be used, I couldn't see them going through the expense to add it to a unit. Kind of like the reason they removed the OTA tuners, not enough people were using them, and keep the cost of the units down.

Many of the items you listed are good ideas, if they are not listed in the HRXX Wish List already, you should ask for them to be added. I think as time goes on all satellite and cable boxes will do things that will amaze us. There are a lot if things that can be done and added, but part of the process are the big questions. 
1. Is it worth the amount of money to research, develop and initiate the feature?
2. How many will use the feature, once it is placed in the unit? 
3. Can the feature be added via software, or will it require a hardware change?


----------



## spartanstew

RaceTripper said:


> Not necessarily in order. Some ideas.
> 
> MRV as I mentioned.
> Better lipsynch between HDMI and coax/optical audio
> *Improved video quality.*
> Faster processing/response times is a big one. Features mean nothing if I give up using them because they are too slow.
> *Netflix streaming would be nice* (understand that's not entirely up to D*)
> More 1080p content.
> A real desktop scheduler, not the sorry excuse for the crappy webapp that's on their website.
> iPod integration
> Better search and scheduling.
> Better/official support for expanded capacity (instead of dealing with the magic eSATA combinations that work).
> Built-in Wireless N.
> A scalar that's better than the one in my TV.
> 
> Something really great I haven't thought of. Something visionary!


Those seem to be contradictory.


----------



## RaceTripper

spartanstew said:


> Those seem to be contradictory.


You really think so? Are you claiming that to do Netflix then all other video processing would have to be the same quality, and couldn't be better. That seems very odd. My XBox doesn't have that limitation. It would be sad if D* engineers think in such narrow terms.


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> As DirecTV offers their own PPV movies, I don't see this a very likely feature.


Why not? XBox 360 has that very distribution model. You can rent PPV and you can stream Netflix.



loudo said:


> I don't think what they have is that bad. I have been using the current system a lot with no problem.


I disagree. The usability of the web scheduler is terrible. Unless you know what show you want to schedule, when it is on, and on what channel, it's really difficult to use...well useless actually. There is no search facility, and it is too slow and clunky for ad hoc browsing.



loudo said:


> For the few that would be used, I couldn't see them going through the expense to add it to a unit. Kind of like the reason they removed the OTA tuners, not enough people were using them, and keep the cost of the units down.


Everything is going wireless. The trend is towards an ethernet wire from your modem to a broadband router, and everything else in the home as a wireless device. I'm already there, but that's what will be mainstream sooner than you might think. I'd say within a year or so, devices with wireless and no ethernet will be more in use than devices with ethernet and no wireless.


----------



## LarryFlowers

Actually, supporting N in the HR's would be a waste of money. A new wireless HD system is going through "standards" committees arguement now. Known as WHDI, it will quite probably be the wireless HD transmission method of the very near future. Hopefully, it will be an improvement over current wireless options, none of which works as well as they would like you to think. I have yet to see any wireless standard A thru N that works consistently, works well, and isn't a PIA.



RaceTripper said:


> Everything is going wireless. The trend is towards an ethernet wire from your modem to a broadband router, and everything else in the home as a wireless device. I'm already there, but that's what will be mainstream sooner than you might think. I'd say within a year or so, devices with wireless and no ethernet will be more in use than devices with ethernet and no wireless.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK, I'm confused... y'all have one thread in which you can talk about TiVo without me shutting it immediately, and you want to talk about wireless networking?


----------



## loudo

RaceTripper said:


> Everything is going wireless. The trend is towards an ethernet wire from your modem to a broadband router, and everything else in the home as a wireless device. I'm already there, but that's what will be mainstream sooner than you might think. I'd say within a year or so, devices with wireless and no ethernet will be more in use than devices with ethernet and no wireless.


I tried wireless, but after problem after problem, I ended up wiring my house with Cat6. Hard wire worked better and I don't have anymore network problems with any of my DirecTV, Slingbox or XBox 360 equipment. Also, many newer homes are coming wired for network and many older homes are having it put in.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

See my previous post.


----------



## loudo

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK, I'm confused... y'all have one thread in which you can talk about TiVo without me shutting it immediately, and you want to talk about wireless networking?


Sorry Stuart, lost my head and forgot where I was at. No more wireless. :grin:


----------



## spartanstew

RaceTripper said:


> You really think so?


Yep.


RaceTripper said:


> Are you claiming that to do Netflix then all other video processing would have to be the same quality, and couldn't be better.


Nope.


RaceTripper said:


> That seems very odd.


That would be odd.


RaceTripper said:


> My XBox doesn't have that limitation.


Not sure what that has to do with this thread, but OK.


RaceTripper said:


> It would be sad if D* engineers think in such narrow terms.


Sad is a very unusual word to use there, but you're welcome to whatever emotion you choose.


----------



## MycroftHolmes

Ok. I'm fairly new here but I'd like to chime in on the TiVo Question. I have been a DirecTV subscriber for about 6 years and TiVo is what brought me to DirecTV. That being said my desire for HD finally overcame my bias toward TiVo and I broke down and upgraded.

I've had the new box for about 2 months and for the most part I've been pleasantly surprised. As it has been said many times here there are things that I like better about my HR21 and things that I miss about my TiVo. There are several things I like better, but I'm sure you all know the virtues of the HR21. These are the things I miss about the TiVo:

Consistency – Yes it was slow to do things like making a new season pass and reordering the priorities, but I'd gladly have a 10 minute reprioritization back to avoid the randomly slow everyday functions. The bottom line is that it may have been consistently slow but it was consistent.

More than 50 season passes – This is also big for me. I know 50 sounds like a lot to some people, but I need more than 50 for several reasons. First I have 5 people in my house, each with different interest, that averages out to only 10 season passes each. Second, after 6 or so years with TiVo I got into the habit of season passing everything that I enjoy. I don't watch it all, but I like the fact that I have many different choices when I sit down to watch TV. I also have some wish lists with things that I don't really expect to see but it's nice when they show up. For example I like old Abbot & Costello movies. On my TiVo I had a low priority wishlist for "Abbot, Bud" and I'd get an Abbot & Costello movie every few months. Do I need these these shows? No. But it became a part of the way I used my TV and I miss it.

Search – One of the things I really enjoyed was "Browsing the video store" on my TiVo. I would search for shows, select "Movie" as the category and "0" as the search term and I could scroll through an alphabetical list of movies that were on in the next two weeks. I've tried several times to figure out a way to do this on the HR21, but I can't find any easy way. I've tried a keyword search, but the list I get back is practically useless. It sorts in time order and shows duplicates. This ends up showing me the same 5 PPV movies over and over (and that's after I wadte through the pages and pages of On Demand listings.) Which brings me to the last thing...

Limiting Searches to Channels I care about – I understand that the channels I receive problem is being worked on, but I presume that once it's fixed, searches will still include PPV. I'd like to be able remove these from my searches. I don't buy PPV and I don't want PPV cluttering up my search results.

Again, for the most part I like my new DVR but if the opportunity comes along I'll trade it in to get my TiVo back.


----------



## evan_s

MycroftHolmes said:


> imiting Searches to Channels I care about - I understand that the channels I receive problem is being worked on, but I presume that once it's fixed, searches will still include PPV. I'd like to be able remove these from my searches. I don't buy PPV and I don't want PPV cluttering up my search results.


Unfortunately I don't think CIG working will do anything for this issue. My understanding is it doesn't limit the search results because they want you to see things you can't get as a tool to try and get you to upgrade your package. I can understand this point of view even if I don't agree with it. The saddest part is they don't even filter out the stuff you have no way of getting like the distant network feeds.


----------



## gully_foyle

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK, I'm confused... y'all have one thread in which you can talk about TiVo without me shutting it immediately, and you want to talk about wireless networking?


And here I am looking for TiVo stuff and it's about "what the HR2x does that's like TiVo." Aren't there, oh, 10,000 threads for talking about the HR2x?


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> New Broadcom chip to double/triple performance which probably also helps the video.


Broadcom announcing a new chip isn't going to scare the demons out of your HR2x.


> The need for more advanced eSATA probably isn't necessary with 1TB now $100. Future boxes will probably have 750GB or 1TB standard.


For many that still won't be enough.


> And DirecTV2Go.


Announced three years ago at CES, it doesn't seem any further along today as it was back then. DIRECTV2GO seems to be a poster child for vaporware.


----------



## Doug Brott

kcmurphy88 said:


> And here I am looking for TiVo stuff and it's about "what the HR2x does that's like TiVo." Aren't there, oh, 10,000 threads for talking about the HR2x?


Once a new TiVo exists .. then we can talk .. right now, the TiVo stuff stays here.


----------



## ATARI

harsh said:


> DIRECTV2GO seems to be a poster child for vaporware.


Actually "Duke Nukem Forever" is the poster child for vaporware.


----------



## loudo

harsh said:


> DIRECTV2GO seems to be a poster child for vaporware.


I think that is what they have for sale today called "Sat Go".
http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P5100008&footernavtype=-1


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Broadcom announcing a new chip isn't going to scare the demons out of your HR2x.


Three Broadcom follow-on chips already announced, all with at least double the performance. The VIP922 uses one of them. I'd take any of the three in an HR24.


harsh said:


> For many that still won't be enough.


1TB will be enough for a VERY large percentage of the DirecTV install base.


harsh said:


> Announced three years ago at CES, it doesn't seem any further along today as it was back then. DIRECTV2GO seems to be a poster child for vaporware.


Still hopeful that it will be eventually worked out. TiVo does not seem to have any DRM issues today with TTG.


----------



## Spoonie

I'm not excited about the prospect of TIVO.

Will the New D* Tivo box:

1) Switch away from live TV just because you want to see the recorded program list?

2) Switch away from a recorded program just because you want to view the guide?

3) Not allow you to watch or listen to TV while running setup, or setting up a manual recording? (not even a little TV box in the corner?)

4) Display "please wait" for an excessive amount of time while confirming a recording? All while not displaying any picture or sound? 

5) While viewing the recorded program list, will it not display a small TV picture in the corner. Will it only just show the list and nothing else?

If the new D* Tivo receiver does any one of the above (maybe with the exception of 5) then they can keep it. I have a HR10-250 and it does all the annoying crap listed above. And by reading some of the replies here, the most recent version of TIVO does that same crap. There’s also plenty of other crap that the TIVO did or didn’t do that I’m not even going to mention.

Anyone who’s interested in an HR10-250 stop by my house and I’ll give it to you free of charge. That thing is Awful.

I replaced my HR10-250 with an HR20. While the HR20 didn’t do any of the annoying crap above, it doesn’t have DLB and has a look and feel of a product from 10 years ago (remote included).

I’ve been with D* since 1996. The new Dish Networks HD-DVR’s look promising. D* need to step it up fast.


----------



## JTWestside

Spoonie said:


> I'm not excited about the prospect of TIVO.
> 
> I have a HR10-250 and it does all the annoying crap listed above. And by reading some of the replies here, the most recent version of TIVO does that same crap.


Why would the directv not have the live TV box when the comcast Tivo does?


----------



## t_h

JTWestside said:


> Why would the directv not have the live TV box when the comcast Tivo does?


The comcast "tivo" is just the comcast box with comcasts s/w with a little bit of tivo user interface on top.

The Tivo HD doesnt have the picture-in-guide or picture-in-list, which is the worst 'feature' of the HR series. I've had more than a half dozen football games ruined for me because I turned the tv on and couldnt accurately make the game in progress stop and be minimized. I tried every workaround offered and none of them worked reliably because the HR doesnt respond to every remote button press reliably.

I also usually end up stabbing the pause button so I dont have something chattering away at me while i'm looking for a new show to watch or setting up a recording.

So I guess one mans boon is another mans bane...


----------



## Spoonie

JTWestside said:


> Why would the directv not have the live TV box when the comcast Tivo does?


Thanks.

That isn't a D* Tivo that you are displaying. When D* and Tivo were together we didn't have that functionality. And what about the other stuff that I've mentioned?


----------



## JTWestside

Spoonie said:


> Thanks.
> 
> That isn't a D* Tivo that you are displaying. When D* and Tivo were together we didn't have that functionality. And what about the other stuff that I've mentioned?


What about it? I don't really know any more than you do, what I do know is that you want to compare something that was released in 2004 with something that hasn't been released yet. I'm just looking at what I have available which is what they've done with the COMCAST box. So it is possible that they will have the things you've mentioned.

I'm pretty sure TiVo is going to know what is expected of them. Maybe they won't hit every one of YOUR demands. Maybe we'll all cry you a river if they don't. If you believe those "in the know" around here the HR isn't going anywhere so you're safe. Of course if you believed them there wouldn't have ever been a new TiVo to begin with.


----------



## judson_west

I can't imagine that DirecTV would just dust off the 5+ year old HR10, repackage it with MPEG4 stuff, and say here you go - the new HD DirecTiVo. It is probably more likely that there will be a DirecTV branded box with TiVo software inside. And that TiVo software features will resemble what is currently available from TiVo on other platforms - including standalone. You could ask that wasn't the way it was so why should it be that way now? And I would respond, why would they do a deal with TiVo if they weren't going to market a product with a modern feature set?


----------



## Spoonie

JTWestside said:


> What about it? I don't really know any more than you do, what I do know is that you want to compare something that was released in 2004 with something that hasn't been released yet.


I wasn't really comparing. I was inquiring about current TIVOs to see if they have improved.



JTWestside said:


> I'm pretty sure TiVo is going to know what is expected of them. Maybe they won't hit every one of YOUR demands.


My Demands? Would you want a DVR to behave in the manner that I described in the original post?



JTWestside said:


> Maybe we'll all cry you a river if they don't. If you believe those "in the know" around here the HR isn't going anywhere so you're safe.


I'm not happy with the HR either.


----------



## JTWestside

judson_west said:


> why would they do a deal with TiVo if they weren't going to market a product with a modern feature set?


BINGO. Also, if the plan was just to use the old stuff we would probably alread have the 'new' one.

TiVo lost most of its subscriber base when it lost the DIRECTV deal. I trust they are going to at least *try* and gain some of those people back with a killer app.


----------



## kiljoy

Sixto said:


> The need for more advanced eSATA probably isn't necessary with 1TB now $100. Future boxes will probably have 750GB or 1TB standard.


And if a 1TB is $100 and TiVos allow you to "marry" eSATA drives to it (as the S3 and HD do), then you're $100 away from _doubling_ your storage space rather than _replacing_ it as the HR2x platform does.

No matter how you look at it, the official and supported eSATA expandability of both TiVo and Dish's offering is superior to the ad hoc unofficial and unsupported solution HR2x owners have now.

Tony


----------



## RaceTripper

kiljoy said:


> And if a 1TB is $100 and TiVos allow you to "marry" eSATA drives to it (as the S3 and HD do), then you're $100 away from _doubling_ your storage space rather than _replacing_ it as the HR2x platform does.
> 
> No matter how you look at it, the official and supported eSATA expandability of both TiVo and Dish's offering is superior to the ad hoc unofficial and unsupported solution HR2x owners have now.


Thanks. That was my thinking exactly, before my point was dismissed as unnecessary.

The expansion support for the HR2x is flakey and inflexible. IMHO, it really stinks and there is no good reason for that. I had to spend $150+ to put together an Antec MX-1 + 1 TB WD drive when I have a perfectly good 750GB Seagate FAP that won't work with a HR21.


----------



## frederic1943

judson_west said:


> I can't imagine that DirecTV would just dust off the 5+ year old HR10, repackage it with MPEG4 stuff, and say here you go -


I don't believe DirecTV has anything to do with the new TiVo other than giving TiVo permission to build a receiver that will work with DirecTV. In the news release it said "DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. This new TiVo box will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services." It will probably run you $10 to $15 dollars a month added to your DirecTV bill which will go to TiVo.


----------



## t_h

frederic1943 said:


> It will probably run you $10 to $15 dollars a month added to your DirecTV bill which will go to TiVo.


Good luck with that. While tivo lovers might bite it off, the average DVR customer will take the $5 one first and try it out, and probably find that it meets their low expectations and needs and wont know what they're missing.

This is why tivo doesnt have 20M subs right now. Between the box and subscriber fees, it takes a hell of a sell to get someone who has never had one to go out and buy one.


----------



## kramer

frederic1943 said:


> It will probably run you $10 to $15 dollars a month added to your DirecTV bill which will go to TiVo.


Not saying your wrong but how did you come up with that dollar amount?


----------



## t_h

Probably because tivo charges $12.95 for each new sub and $9.95 for each additional box in the same household.


----------



## harsh

frederic1943 said:


> I don't believe DirecTV has anything to do with the new TiVo other than giving TiVo permission to build a receiver that will work with DirecTV.


If you believe that, I would advocate that you re-read all the available press about the deal. The specifics that were given were that the new TiVo powered receiver would be based on the DIRECTV HD DVR "platform". This ranges all the way from a new, very similar but more powerful DVR to the TiVo software running on the current HR2x machines. It does not leave a very wide opening for a ground-up hardware effort from TiVo as you seem to be suggesting.


----------



## newsposter

id pay 12.95 for the hr10 to have the same features it does now, plus add the speed and other features of the hr20. Well worth it! 

i just hope the new tivo has more than 50 passes! if directv puts that limitation on them then it will be a sad day


----------



## loudo

t_h said:


> Probably because tivo charges $12.95 for each new sub and $9.95 for each additional box in the same household.


Way to much money for what little you get from it. Over twice what we currently pay for a DVR fee, not worth it.


----------



## RaceTripper

t_h said:


> Good luck with that. While tivo lovers might bite it off, the average DVR customer will take the $5 one first and try it out, and probably find that it meets their low expectations and needs and wont know what they're missing.
> 
> This is why tivo doesnt have 20M subs right now. Between the box and subscriber fees, it takes a hell of a sell to get someone who has never had one to go out and buy one.


I'm a 10 yr. D* subscriber. If they add $10-15 on top of what I have just to add TIVO, I doubt I'll bite. I'm already planning to look at options when my commitment ends (including just what's free). A TIVO surcharge is just as likely to drive me to something else.


----------



## Doug Brott

newsposter said:


> id pay 12.95 for the hr10 to have the same features it does now, plus add the speed and other features of the hr20. Well worth it!
> 
> i just hope the new tivo has more than 50 passes! if directv puts that limitation on them then it will be a sad day


Why would it be DIRECTV's limitation if it's Tivo's software?


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Why would it be DIRECTV's limitation if it's Tivo's software?


I think the way to look at the limitation using the current DirecTiVo model is, since D* is paying TiVo only $0.89/mo., D*'s TiVo subs only get limited features compared to the standalone TiVo subs.

It is likely the new DirecTiVo will not materialize reading between the lines, but if it does happen some day, the model will be the same, D* pays maybe $1.25/mo, D* TiVo subs will not have to pay $12.95/mo., but also will not get the same rich features.


----------



## bakerfall

The 50 season pass limit is an issue with the D* DVR OS, not a decision they've made. You can have over 50 on old D* Tivos and I would almost guarantee you'll be able to have them on the new ones.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I think the way to look at the limitation using the current DirecTiVo model is, since D* is paying TiVo only $0.89/mo., D*'s TiVo subs only get limited features compared to the standalone TiVo subs.
> 
> It is likely the new DirecTiVo will not materialize reading between the lines, but if it does happen some day, the model will be the same, D* pays maybe $1.25/mo, D* TiVo subs will not have to pay $12.95/mo., but also will not get the same rich features.


I do believe this will be the same hardware as the HR2x .. either in it's present for or maybe as a new box. But still, the TiVo would be TiVo. If they fall down with their offering it will be TiVo falling short.


----------



## Albie

jacmyoung said:


> I think the way to look at the limitation using the current DirecTiVo model is, since D* is paying TiVo only $0.89/mo., D*'s TiVo subs only get limited features compared to the standalone TiVo subs.
> 
> It is likely the new DirecTiVo will not materialize reading between the lines, but if it does happen some day, the model will be the same, D* pays maybe $1.25/mo, D* TiVo subs will not have to pay $12.95/mo., but also will not get the same rich features.


TIVO has already stated the deal is for "significantly more" than the current deal so I would imagine more in the $5+ per month range. If so I can easily see D* charging at least double what we pay now for DVR service to have the TIVO experience.


----------



## t_h

I wouldnt see much reason to develop an entirely new hardware platform. The hd tivo has some things in common with the directv HR.

Tivo could either add a pair of directv tuners, access card and mpeg4 hw to their hd tivo and retrofit the software to handle those, or just use the HR20 and do approximately the same software retrofit. Seems like a whole lot less work to do the latter with about the same results.

The series 4 tivo is supposed to have hardware mpeg4 capabilities, so the software to do that piece of it is probably already done. Tivo has prior code to handle access cards and directv tuners, although only SD.

Seems the path of least resistance is a tivo s/w image for the HR. Whether it could be field upgraded or only sold as a complete package is a mystery.

But if its going to be $10-12 per home or $8-10 a box, it doesnt matter, it'll fall on its face. If I really wanted the tivo experience and faced that sort of price structure, I'd buy an HD tivo with lifetime, hook it up to cable and be done with it for 6-8 years.


----------



## Sir_Q

Albie said:


> TIVO has already stated the deal is for "significantly more" than the current deal so I would imagine more in the $5+ per month range. If so I can easily see D* charging at least double what we pay now for DVR service to have the TIVO experience.


Wonder what they would do with us few that still have Lifetime DVR still on our accounts.


----------



## Richierich

Well, if it has 4 Tuners and MPEG-4 with the TIVO Bells and Whistles such as Swivel Search and on a Directv Platform with DLB and it costs me $10 a month, where do I sign up???


----------



## Jhon69

Sir_Q said:


> Wonder what they would do with us few that still have Lifetime DVR still on our accounts.


I would guess your Lifetime would continue through DirecTV's DVR+'s DVR plan.But would change under the new HD DirecTivo's plan which will cost more(Just a guess).


----------



## JTWestside

1. TiVo wants to be out of hardware. Why do you think they want to win the patent thing with E* so bad? It's so they can hold licensing fees over every one else. So don't expect new tivo hardware. The press releases already mentioned in this thread are clear it will run on existing hardware as well.

http://www.multichannel.com/blog/The_Satellite_Dish/10728-The_Fight_Rages_On.php



> TiVo would rather be licensing its technology and be out of the hardware business altogether. And without this important patent it would not have much to stand on and offer and would possibly be the demise of the DVR Company as we know it today.


2. Don't expect 10-15 dollars a month for the TiVo box. If DIRECTV thought they could get that they would be charging it for the HR. Just look around here the HR IS the greatest thing since sliced bread (right?) so they should be able to charge a premium.  If anything it will be a $1 or so, or nothing will be passed on(to the customer) and it will all be on the back end and DIRECTV will just phase out their development all together when the TiVo is successful.


----------



## Richierich

I figure there will be an Upfront Charge for the Initial Lease of the Directivo unit and probably a $5 charge per month per unit.


----------



## ATARI

richierich said:


> I figure there will be an Upfront Charge for the Initial Lease of the Directivo unit and probably a $5 charge per month per unit.


+1


----------



## newsposter

Doug Brott said:


> Why would it be DIRECTV's limitation if it's Tivo's software?


I assumed directv told tivo what they can and cannot do. If that's not that case, fantastic. We will have VOD on demand on the tivo with broadband, faster speed, and all the other things the HR20 does well but on our beloved tivo machines with unlimited SP, dual buffers and hopefully they will bring back the tivo animation (tivo 0 on T60). :joy:



t_h said:


> But if its going to be $10-12 per home or $8-10 a box, it doesnt matter, it'll fall on its face. If I really wanted the tivo experience and faced that sort of price structure, I'd buy an HD tivo with lifetime, hook it up to cable and be done with it for 6-8 years.


you are a fortunate one to have great cable PQ. Many of us have sucky cable systems. I ran my side by side with directv for a month when i got it at first. directv won by a longshot!


----------



## Richierich

DIRECTV is running the show as regards to this New MPEG-4 DVR and TIVO is just supplying their software on top of Directv's Platform as has been stated in their Press Release about this collaboration.


----------



## Lee L

I have posted this before, but the Press release makes mention of a "new box". We can argue as much as we want about what the whole thing means, but based on the DirecTV press release, there is not enough info to determine with any certainty whether the box will be a DirecTV Piece of Hardware like the HR 20-23 series that can also run TiVo software or if it will be a TiVo produced box like the HR10-250.

(Bold is my emphasis)



DirecTV Press Release said:


> DIRECTV will continue to develop and offer its own portfolio of industry leading set top boxes as primary offerings to both new and existing customers. *This new TiVo box* will be offered as an alternative choice to those DIRECTV customers who would like to add TiVo to a full line up of DIRECTV services.


----------



## t_h

newsposter said:


> you are a fortunate one to have great cable PQ. Many of us have sucky cable systems. I ran my side by side with directv for a month when i got it at first. directv won by a longshot!


I cant say that its great, and I wouldnt run them side by side. All I can say is that the cable HD picture my dad gets looks a lot better than SD. Minus the audio gleeps and blurps, the gray screens, the lockups and the twice weekly reboots. I might be willing to trade off some PQ for reliability.


----------



## JTWestside

Lee L said:


> I have posted this before, but the Press release makes mention of a "new box". We can argue as much as we want about what the whole thing means, but based on the DirecTV press release, there is not enough info to determine with any certainty whether the box will be a DirecTV Piece of Hardware like the HR 20-23 series that can also run TiVo software or if it will be a TiVo produced box like the HR10-250.
> 
> (Bold is my emphasis)


You are correct. However, with the fact that TiVo as a company is moving towards a model of developing software and not boxes, and with the fact that this is the model that they are using with other providers (COMCAST) A sane person would hypothesize that they would put their software on the DIRECTV box.



> Under the terms of the non--exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service *for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*.


----------



## Doug Brott

Lee L said:


> I have posted this before, but the Press release makes mention of a "new box". We can argue as much as we want about what the whole thing means, but based on the DirecTV press release, there is not enough info to determine with any certainty whether the box will be a DirecTV Piece of Hardware like the HR 20-23 series that can also run TiVo software or if it will be a TiVo produced box like the HR10-250.


It will be DIRECTV hardware ..


----------



## Doug Brott

richierich said:


> I figure there will be an Upfront Charge for the Initial Lease of the Directivo unit and probably a $5 charge per month per unit.


This is in the ballpark of what I would expect to be the case, but really, we don't know anything at this point. Heck, the whole project could end up getting scrubbed based on the information we have at this point.


----------



## Doug Brott

JTWestside said:


> 1. TiVo wants to be out of hardware. Why do you think they want to win the patent thing with E* so bad? It's so they can hold licensing fees over every one else. So don't expect new tivo hardware. The press releases already mentioned in this thread are clear it will run on existing hardware as well.


DIRECTV and TiVo already cross-license technology. Remember, DIRECTV now own all of the Replay TV Patents putting it in a much better position than some of the other vendors (including Echostar).



JTWestside said:


> 2. Don't expect 10-15 dollars a month for the TiVo box. If DIRECTV thought they could get that they would be charging it for the HR. Just look around here the HR IS the greatest thing since sliced bread (right?) so they should be able to charge a premium.  If anything it will be a $1 or so, or nothing will be passed on(to the customer) and it will all be on the back end and DIRECTV will just phase out their development all together when the TiVo is successful.


Even if the HR is considered "barely good enough" by someone, I imagine it would take a lot for many folks to move to TiVo for $10-15/month. If the economics mean that TiVo has to charge that much more for their DVR, then they probably should just stop now as I doubt they'll get enough subscribers to make it worthwhile. I do believe there will be an upcharge, but it will have to be reasonable. The problem is that I think you will find that the HR would win out in many cases even if the price were zero .. as the price goes above zero, the number of TiVo wins goes down.


----------



## RaceTripper

Doug Brott said:


> Even if the HR is considered "barely good enough" by someone, I imagine it would take a lot for many folks to move to TiVo for $10-15/month. If the economics mean that TiVo has to charge that much more for their DVR, then they probably should just stop now as I doubt they'll get enough subscribers to make it worthwhile. I do believe there will be an upcharge, but it will have to be reasonable. The problem is that I think you will find that the HR would win out in many cases even if the price were zero .. as the price goes above zero, the number of TiVo wins goes down.


I'm in that camp. All this is a discretionary expense, and this is a time when people are not increasing their budgets for that. While I would love to see improvements over the current HRs if it costs me more I'm not likely to go for it, and doesn't matter if the extra expense is "worth it." Most people in this economic climate will stand pat with what is good enough. If D* wants to do Tivo as a premium service over the current HR service, they are going to need to find something to make it highly compelling over the normal offering, something that is more than just satisfying the Tivo fans.


----------



## Curtis0620

RaceTripper said:


> I'm in that camp. All this is a discretionary expense, and this is a time when people are increasing their budgets for that. While I would love to see improvements over the current HRs if it costs me more I'm not likely to go for it, and doesn't matter if the extra expense is "worth it." Most people in this economic climate will stand pat with what is good enough. If D* wants to do Tivo as a premium service over the current HR service, they are going to need to find something to make it highly compelling over the normal offering, something that is more than just satisfying the Tivo fans.


Have you looked at the current TiVo features? DLB is worth it alone.


----------



## jjohns

Got to agree with you there. Based on the 137,210 (and counting) views regarding dual live buffers, I believe the HR would be the Titanic here.


----------



## t_h

A box I can count on 99.9% of the time to record and playback my shows without adding extra drama and comedy, and is responsive to the remote control is about the only great feature that I need and am not getting right now.


----------



## RaceTripper

Curtis0620 said:


> Have you looked at the current TiVo features? DLB is worth it alone.


You missed my point evidently. Whizz bang features don't matter right now. People are worried about their jobs, and aren't looking to increase their D* bill. I'm reasonably comfortable and my job is pretty safe, but I'm more likely to do without D* altogether (and put the money in savings) than to increase my bill.

D* won't make a premium Tivo DVR service successful by just selling it to the Tivo fans.

I don't have to look at current Tivo features. I don't really care much about DLB. I care about MRV, but won't pay extra for it.


----------



## Syzygy

Spoonie said:


> My Demands? Would you want a DVR to behave in the manner that I described in the original post? To wit:
> 
> 1) Switch away from live TV to view the recorded program list
> 2) Switch away from a recorded program to view the guide
> 3) Not yammer at you while you're running setup, etc.
> 4) Display "please wait" for an excessive amount of time
> 5) Same as 1, reworded


Yes, yes, yes, no, yes.

Here's hoping any new TiVo has an option to defeat any "picture-in-whatever" so-called "feature".


----------



## JTWestside

I think *Doug Brott* has it right all the way around here. The fact is that TiVo isn't going to kill itself by over pricing the thing. I miss DLB as much as the next guy (probably more than him actually) but this thing is going to have to have more than that and more than what the HR20 offers to get anything more than a couple of bucks from me. And I'm not worried about loosing my job. Unfortunately that's not the case with a large portion of the country right now so you tell me what that means for the pricing.

As for what the agreement DIRECTV already has, as well as the purchased intellectual property of REPLAY and what that means. I guess that remains to be seen. However I can say that I'm not worried about my job because I'm in the business working for a company that outsources business functions to save money and I can tell you that when it comes to dollars and cents if DIRECTV can get development done cheaper buy letting TiVo do it they should (and probably will).


----------



## JTWestside

Not to get off topic but ... what ever happened to BETTER THAN DLB?


----------



## texasbrit

I guess we just have to wait and see. My decision will be based on (1) what does it offer over the then-current available products (remember we are talking about some time in 2010 here) and (2) how much will it cost.
I am one of the people who basically do not have any real problems with the HR2x DVRs - I have an HR20-700, an HR20-100 and an HR21-200. . They are a bit slow (maybe we will get a faster processor before 2010) but I have not had a missed recording as long as I can remember, and I have had a total of two lockups in the last 18 months. I just set up my series links and then watch the recorded programming. OTA works well, VOD works fine, all the other basic features of the system work the way they are supposed to.
I don't really care about DLB because like many DVR owners I virtually never watch live TV. And I would be very unhappy to see DLB if I lost my 90-minute live buffer as a result, because that's something I do use.
Unless the TiVo offers me some great new capability I can't see me being willing to pay anything much for the new TiVo box. I don't know how many million DirecTV DVR users there will be by the time the TiVo box is released but I suspect only a very small percentage of them will care. It is going to take some very careful pricing to make the TiVo product successful alongside whatever other box DirecTV is offering in 2010.


----------



## Curtis0620

RaceTripper said:


> You missed my point evidently. Whizz bang features don't matter right now. People are worried about their jobs, and aren't looking to increase their D* bill. I'm reasonably comfortable and my job is pretty safe, but I'm more likely to do without D* altogether (and put the money in savings) than to increase my bill.
> 
> D* won't make a premium Tivo DVR service successful by just selling it to the Tivo fans.
> 
> I don't have to look at current Tivo features. I don't really care much about DLB. I care about MRV, but won't pay extra for it.


Sure, why buy a BMW when you are happy with your Kia.


----------



## Crypter

This thread is such a waste of time. 

I will be VERY surprised if we EVER see a new DirecTivo box. That press release was probably just propaganda to try and sell more subscriptions. IMO


----------



## jjohns

In 2010, if the users look back two years into the HRxx archives and see that they are experiencing the exact same problems they had in 2008, like we can now look back two years and see we are experiencing the exact same problems as in 2006 – I would suggest that some might have reason to exit the HRxx ship.


----------



## Jhon69

Curtis0620 said:


> Sure, why buy a BMW when you are happy with your Kia.


Because the BMW might be twice as good as the KIA?.


----------



## Doug Brott

jjohns said:


> In 2010, if the users look back two years into the HRxx archives and see that they are experiencing the exact same problems they had in 2008, like we can now look back two years and see we are experiencing the exact same problems as in 2006 - I would suggest that some might have reason to exit the HRxx ship.


Of course some people will switch to the new TiVo .. If that weren't the case, then why even make it?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jjohns said:


> In 2010, if the users look back two years into the HRxx archives and see that they are experiencing the exact same problems they had in 2008, like we can now look back two years and see we are experiencing the exact same problems as in 2006 - I would suggest that some might have reason to exit the HRxx ship.


It seems to me....

If you look back 10 years at TiVo's history, and see that we are still having some of the same problems that were had 10 years ago....

But I guess that is too logical.

I'll admit I wasn't there ten years ago. I remember tivocommunity.com had a monstrously long thread about six years ago asking where certain advanced features were. I guess you're right, things don't change


----------



## RaceTripper

Curtis0620 said:


> Sure, why buy a BMW when you are happy with your Kia.


:lol: I got rid of my BMW M3 last September in exchange for a MINI John Cooper Works.

I am happy with my MINI.


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> Of course some people will switch to the new TiVo .. If that weren't the case, then why even make it?


Thought it was reported that DirecTV thought it wasn't worth the money to fight a lawsuit.:eek2:
But I also know there will be subscribers that believe the DirecTivo will be better.
But if the new DirecTivo does not have PIG,one button record,2 90 minute live buffers,First Air Date when you just press More Info,be able to go all the way to the left and press Info to bring up a programming list for that channel while your still in the grid guide,hard drive space meter(I know there are more important features to others,but these are mine because they are missing on my HR10-250) a new DirecTivo will not interest me.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> It seems to me....
> 
> If you look back 10 years at TiVo's history, and see that we are still having some of the same problems that were had 10 years ago....
> 
> But I guess that is too logical.
> 
> I'll admit I wasn't there ten years ago. I remember tivocommunity.com had a monstrously long thread about six years ago asking where certain advanced features were. I guess you're right, things don't change


I know one owner who has never missed their Tivobox...


----------



## Doug Brott

Jhon69 said:


> Thought it was reported that DirecTV thought it wasn't worth the money to fight a lawsuit.:eek2:


Except DIRECTV and TiVo already have cross-licensing agreements in place through 2018


----------



## Lord Vader

Now how's that going to work when the world is going to end on December 21, 2012?!?


----------



## loudo

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I know one owner who has never missed their Tivobox...


I can remember one incident with the TIVO HR10-250's, that lasted for about a week, when scheduled recordings were not recording and boxes were randomly re-booting. My wife won't let me forget about that, when her soaps didn't get recorded.


----------



## t_h

I remember that too. It was when Directv changed the guide data stream and neither their own boxes nor the Directv tivo boxes could handle the data. Lockups, missed recordings and all sorts of hilarity ensued until they put the data stream back and sent new software updates. It still didnt quite work as reliably as it once had after the update and the switch back.

The persistent problems with that new guide data stream was what led to Directv assuring me that this was a tivo problem and that all my problems would go away if I switched to their HR's.

Considering that in the last year that I've lost more recordings and had more receiver problems with two HR20-100's than I had with a half dozen tivo products over 8 years, that wasnt exactly the result I got.


----------



## kramer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I know one owner who has never missed their Tivobox...


One to many, guess D fan boy's win:hurah:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> Now how's that going to work when the world is going to end on December 21, 2012?!?


I hear the Tivo unit is being released 12/22/12...


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> I can remember one incident with the TIVO HR10-250's, that lasted for about a week, when scheduled recordings were not recording and boxes were randomly re-booting. My wife won't let me forget about that, when her soaps didn't get recorded.


I remember that, because it's when I got D* to give me two HR20s to replace my HR10s. I knew MPEG4 and the end of DirecTivo was coming, and I got impatient with all the Tivo guide problems. It's also when they rolled out a Tivo software upgrade that didn't go well (can't remember what the problems were). I ended up selling my HR10s on Craigslist for $250 each. One was leased but D* didn't want it back. CS even converted it to owned for me so I could sell it.


----------



## Syzygy

loudo said:


> I can remember one incident with the TIVO HR10-250's, that lasted for about a week, when scheduled recordings were not recording and boxes were randomly re-booting. My wife won't let me forget about that, when her soaps didn't get recorded.





t_h said:


> I remember that too. It was when Directv changed the guide data stream and neither their own boxes nor the Directv tivo boxes could handle the data. Lockups, missed recordings and all sorts of hilarity ensued until they put the data stream back and sent new software updates. It still didn't quite work as reliably as it once had after the update and the switch back.
> 
> The persistent problems with that new guide data stream was what led to Directv assuring me that this was a tivo problem and that all my problems would go away if I switched to their HR's...





RaceTripper said:


> I remember that, because it's when I got D* to give me two HR20s to replace my HR10s. I knew MPEG4 and the end of DirecTivo was coming, and I got impatient with all the Tivo guide problems. It's also when they rolled out a Tivo software upgrade that didn't go well... I ended up selling my HR10s...


I was almost certain, back then, that D* was using their data stream to sabotage the HR10. Or maybe they just didn't care what effect their changes had on TiVo units.

Anyway, I'm glad I stuck with the HR10. Now I have an HR21 too, and the old TiVo box still gives me the more satisfying experience by far. And I do (try to) use all the features of the HR21; it's just that a lot of them don't work very well. The HR2x frustrates one at every turn.


----------



## prospero63

bonscott87 said:


> Whatever you say. I've been using MRV for a couple months now.


Really? Between two HD-DVR units? You must be one of the special "wink, wink" people that always imply some great feature or function, provide absolutely no details and wink to emphasize the point...


----------



## prospero63

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps the more accurate term would have been "betaware"...


Nah, it's vaporware. Crippleware vaporware. Till it's 100% supported by DirecTV and runs on all units, not just a single client unit, it's not a product. I mean how long have folks been asking for it? 2 years? 3? It really takes that long to deliver?



> Mainstream access to MRV is not all that far away...


I'll believe it when I see it. The wishlist v3 (which I would assume means there was a v1 and v2) dates to Aug 2007. I suspect MRV has been on the wishlist since at least then. 1.5 years, and still not delivered? Really?


----------



## prospero63

Doug Brott said:


> Any links to that? Everything I've seen has DIRECTV on top ..


Absolutely. As I stated in this thread I pointed out the same JD Power Customer satisfaction survey that DirecTV themselves referenced for years while they were at the top. AT&T and FIOS both rate higher, region to region and overall. Whether anyone wants to admit it, those are the facts. Using the same survey that DirecTV referenced for years, they are no longer "on top".


----------



## prospero63

Tom Robertson said:


> Oh how we've forgotten the history of the term vaporware.
> 
> Vaporware used to be things that were floated as marketing balloons. Items that potential for never seeing the light of day.
> 
> Now you (and a few others) are applying the term to active projects that have a very public path of successes (including necessary components that are already nationally released to all HR2x units).


I'm not forgetting history at all. Vaporware isn't simply "never seeing the light of day". It's also failing to appear after either the stated or a reasonable amount of time. Now, I don't know how long it took anyone else to get their MRV solutions out, but the time that DirecTV has taken meets my definition of "beyond a reasonable amount of time".



> The path to MRV is: 1) make a client (or a server); 2) make a server (or a client) ; 3) Marry the two together with a GUI. DIRECTV has #1 done--Media Share. All HR2x can support displaying media as a client using a upcoming standard, DLNA.


Can as in "in the future they will be able to" or can as in "can do it right now today".



> All HR2x can also serve media. Granted, the DIRECTV client is now in large-scale beta testing, the server can connect to any fully DLNA compliant client. (Unfortunately, the majority of clients don't support the copy protection part of DLNA, so DIRECTV is taking care of that too.)


It's hardly what I call large-scale beta testing. They don't even, that I know of, support it between two HD-DVR boxes.



> (By the way... at this point does any other shipping DVR have the ability to serve DLNA in national release?) Dish has talked about it for 12 months since last year's CES. Is it launched yet?


Dunno. Contrary to opinion, I'm not a Dish customer or employee. I don't know what they can do, but honestly I don't care. Aside from the logical fallacy aspect (two wrongs make a right), I'm interested in DirecTV doing things. DirecTV improving their product offerings. I couldn't care less what Dish does or doesn't do, because they don't get a penny from me.



> So, looking at my path to MRV we see a couple things: 1) DIRECTV is actively working on it. 2) Using public standards, not proprietary technologies. 3) DIRECTV is clearly very close to a full product. The heavy lifting is done, do you think it is really vaporware at this point? 4) You have been told and know that it is in public testing here. This is not vaporware.


1) Actively working on something doesn't make it not vaporware. 2) Who cares if they use public standards or proprietary standards? It also bears no relevance on whether it's vaporware. 3) Very close doesn't make it a product. It makes it... vaporware. 4) Yes, if you have a single type of tuner you can test it. That makes it vaporware that is being tested. DirecTV could kill it today, never release it, and all the testing done is irrelevant. This has taken so long, it's vaporware till released.



> Therefore, yes I think DIRECTV is very quickly catching up to people who've been shipping their own DVR software for many years. They've innovated the UI for simpler use. They've developed side products along the way, some the others don't have.


UI and side products just muddy the waters. We aren't discussing them, we are discussing MRV.



> Dish has announced products that haven't shipped today. That I expect will ship, btw. I don't call their products vaporware, but you should at least be consistent, I should think.


I swear, the Dish envy on the forum is hilarious. I don't follow dish, but if they have products that have been desired by their customers as long as MRV has been, and they have been working on it for as long as DirecTV has, and they still haven't released it, have made no public roadmap statements and no one (who doesn't post a "really, really soon" wink, wink post) actually knows when it's actually going to be a supported product, then you bet, it's what I call vaporware.



> Is DIRECTV fully caught up? Noper. But I do think they are catching up very quickly. Leading in some areas, catching up in others.


I still have to disagree with quickly. It's turtle speed.



> (I am glad Dish is an active competitor. We all benefit from improvements and the competition.)


Kind of. We (DirecTV subscribers) benefit from them innovating, not catching up to the competition. We benefit from them producing features the other companies don't have. It's hard to be an innovator when you are always playing catch up though. Kind of like the old analogy that it's hard to score points when you are always playing defense...



> Cheers,
> Tom


Likewise. Thanks! :goodjob:


----------



## Doug Brott

prospero63 said:


> I'm not forgetting history at all. Vaporware isn't simply "never seeing the light of day". It's also failing to appear after either the stated or a reasonable amount of time. Now, I don't know how long it took anyone else to get their MRV solutions out, but the time that DirecTV has taken meets my definition of "beyond a reasonable amount of time".


So when MRV becomes available what will it not be there (a.k.a. vaporware) simply because it materialized "beyond a reasonable amount of time?" That doesn't even make sense.



prospero63 said:


> It's hardly what I call large-scale beta testing. They don't even, that I know of, support it between two HD-DVR boxes.


This is DIRECTV2PC .. http://www.directv.com/directv2pc


----------



## prospero63

Doug Brott said:


> I do believe this will be the same hardware as the HR2x .. either in it's present for or maybe as a new box. But still, the TiVo would be TiVo. If they fall down with their offering it will be TiVo falling short.


Barring some legal reason for it, I agree ([DBSTalk]holy crap, did Wes just agree with Doug???!?![/DBSTalk]. 

I'm also of the opinion (hope?) that it's just another receiver in your monthly fee. I never had to pay special for my TIVO's. I don't see a reason to pay more for future ones.


----------



## prospero63

JTWestside said:


> Not to get off topic but ... what ever happened to BETTER THAN DLB?


Well, it's damned sure not vaporware (duck and cover, duck and cover)


----------



## prospero63

Doug Brott said:


> So when MRV becomes available what will it not be there (a.k.a. vaporware) simply because it materialized "beyond a reasonable amount of time?" That doesn't even make sense.


Ya, I've tried reading that sentence a few times and I don't understand it either.

Vaporware doesn't mean that something never materialized. That's certainly one aspect, but it's not the only aspect. If you want to think of it the way I think you are, it's more "it was vaporware for a long time. Now it's a real product". Natural (or I guess in this case unnatural) evolution through the software lifecycle.

Heck, I guess I can concede that since it is in beta (as limited and crippled as it is), it's at least beta. Maybe vaporbeta(tm). I might need to wikipedia that there term. :lol:



> This is DIRECTV2PC .. http://www.directv.com/directv2pc


So that's considered MRV? Streaming to a PC? That's a stretch IMO. Marketing at it's best...


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> Except DIRECTV and TiVo already have cross-licensing agreements in place through 2018


What I read was 2015 with an option to 2018.

That was one of the reasons cited for the agreement.It's posted here somewhere I'll find it.:sure:

Here's one.
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-09/new-hd-tivo-coming-to-directv/
And another:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm


----------



## Jhon69

Lord Vader said:


> Now how's that going to work when the world is going to end on December 21, 2012?!?


Nah.Nostradamus said 3797.:sure:


----------



## Doug Brott

Doug Brott said:


> Of course some people will switch to the new TiVo .. If that weren't the case, then why even make it?





Jhon69 said:


> Thought it was reported that DirecTV thought it wasn't worth the money to fight a lawsuit.:eek2:
> But I also know there will be subscribers that believe the DirecTivo will be better.
> But if the new DirecTivo does not have PIG,one button record,2 90 minute live buffers,First Air Date when you just press More Info,be able to go all the way to the left and press Info to bring up a programming list for that channel while your still in the grid guide,hard drive space meter(I know there are more important features to others,but these are mine because they are missing on my HR10-250) a new DirecTivo will not interest me.





Doug Brott said:


> Except DIRECTV and TiVo already have cross-licensing agreements in place through 2018





Jhon69 said:


> What I read was 2015 with an option to 2018.
> 
> That was one of the reasons cited for the agreement.It's posted here somewhere I'll find it.:sure:
> 
> Here's one.
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-09/new-hd-tivo-coming-to-directv/
> And another:
> http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm


So in response to me saying that some people would switch to the new TiVo you say "Thought it was reported that DirecTV thought it wasn't worth the money to fight a lawsuit." So you that is why they signed the agreement? Well duh!? That was my point. I realize the 2015 w/option for 2018, but I'm sure that option will be exercised unless something is dramatically different in 6 years.

I don't understand why some people wanting to switch to TiVo has anything to do with whether or not DIRECTV wants to fight a lawsuit (which won't happen anyway since DIRECTV & TiVo signed an agreement). That's the part I'm confused about.


----------



## Doug Brott

prospero63 said:


> Ya, I've tried reading that sentence a few times and I don't understand it either.


Nice backhand :grin:



prospero63 said:


> Vaporware doesn't mean that something never materialized. That's certainly one aspect, but it's not the only aspect. If you want to think of it the way I think you are, it's more "it was vaporware for a long time. Now it's a real product". Natural (or I guess in this case unnatural) evolution through the software lifecycle.


Sure, fine multi-room viewing is vaporware just like the TiVo (point of this thread). Wanna bet on which of those two products stops being vaporware first? Or on which of those two products is most likely to never see the light of day? Which, BTW, is what I believe to be the most accepted definition of vaporware - something which never sees the light of day.



prospero63 said:


> So [DIRECTV2PC is] considered MRV? Streaming to a PC? That's a stretch IMO. Marketing at it's best...


In the sense that DIRECTV2PC shows that the MRV server functionality works, yes. So there is something today .. available by downloading a program from DIRECTV .. to show you that the server side of MRV is currently ready and able. Tom also pointed out that via MediaShare the client side of MRV is also working. The piece that is missing (making this vaporware in your mind) is the GUI that connects the client piece to the server piece within the receiver. Once that part is tested and functional .. MRV will be ready for release.


----------



## Albie

prospero63 said:


> Barring some legal reason for it, I agree ([DBSTalk]holy crap, did Wes just agree with Doug???!?![/DBSTalk].
> 
> I'm also of the opinion (hope?) that it's just another receiver in your monthly fee. I never had to pay special for my TIVO's. I don't see a reason to pay more for future ones.


I think your hope is going to be bashed somewhat when (if) the new D*Tivo see the light of day

"However, DirecTV will pay a "*substantially higher*" monthly fee for homes that use the new TiVo-DirecTV HD DVR than it pays for older TiVo-DirecTV DVRs, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The deal also gives DirecTV the option to extend the agreement for another three years to February 2018."

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep/04/business/fi-dtv4


----------



## Crypter

I would be willing to bet lots of money that we do NOT get a new DirecTivo HD DVR in the next 3 years. If ever.


----------



## Doug Brott

Crypter said:


> I would be willing to bet lots of money that we do NOT get a new DirecTivo HD DVR in the next 3 years. If ever.


I'm not ready to make that bet myself at this point, but I'm much more willing now than I was last September.


----------



## evan_s

prospero63 said:


> I'm not forgetting history at all. Vaporware isn't simply "never seeing the light of day". It's also failing to appear after either the stated or a reasonable amount of time. Now, I don't know how long it took anyone else to get their MRV solutions out, but the time that DirecTV has taken meets my definition of "beyond a reasonable amount of time".


From Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware


> Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product. The term implies unwarranted optimism, an as yet unannounced abandonment of a project, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility. However, most vaporware would not be considered a hoax since the makers have a genuine intention to create their product, even if it ultimately never materializes. Products with unspecified release dates or long development times that outwardly demonstrate regular, verifiable progress in production are not normally labelled vaporware.


You are right that it does include a concept of a reasonable amount of time. It how ever wouldn't seem to apply to MRV from DirecTV since as far as I can remember and find searching for it DirecTV has never promised MRV or set a date. The closest thing I know of is the references to the Whole Home DVR in their financial reports but that is still to come as being set at 2009/2010. Obviously folks around here know they are working on it but that doesn't make it into vaporware. That makes it into something that under active development.


----------



## bonscott87

prospero63 said:


> Really? Between two HD-DVR units? You must be one of the special "wink, wink" people that always imply some great feature or function, provide absolutely no details and wink to emphasize the point...


Ummmm, it's in testing right now with the non DVR units. See the CE forum for details. It gets expanded to more receivers as time goes on. Believe what you want...


----------



## prospero63

Doug Brott said:


> Sure, fine multi-room viewing is vaporware just like the TiVo (point of this thread). Wanna bet on which of those two products stops being vaporware first? Or on which of those two products is most likely to never see the light of day? Which, BTW, is what I believe to be the most accepted definition of vaporware - something which never sees the light of day.


I'd hope that MRV happens first. I'd guess the TIVO never see's the light of day. Yes, that's definitely a definition of vaporware, but team fortress 2 was vaporware for what, 10 years, then bam.



> In the sense that DIRECTV2PC shows that the MRV server functionality works, yes. So there is something today .. available by downloading a program from DIRECTV .. to show you that the server side of MRV is currently ready and able. Tom also pointed out that via MediaShare the client side of MRV is also working. The piece that is missing (making this vaporware in your mind) is the GUI that connects the client piece to the server piece within the receiver. Once that part is tested and functional .. MRV will be ready for release.


I don't disagree. But given the DirecTV track record of things like eSATA drives (sure you can do it, it's not supported), I'm not willing to call it a product or a solution until its

1) Generally available
2) Functional across systems (not in two very specialized circumstances)
3) Fully supported

Till all 3 of those happen, MRV doesn't exist as a product. It exists as a potential product.


----------



## prospero63

Albie said:


> I think your hope is going to be bashed somewhat when (if) the new D*Tivo see the light of day
> 
> "However, DirecTV will pay a "*substantially higher*" monthly fee for homes that use the new TiVo-DirecTV HD DVR than it pays for older TiVo-DirecTV DVRs, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The deal also gives DirecTV the option to extend the agreement for another three years to February 2018."
> 
> http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep/04/business/fi-dtv4


Not very surprising. DirecTV has so many customers willing to bend over to take rate hikes while at the same time using FUD of "if you want XYZ they will charge us more" for reasons why they haven't made progress on new features and functionality, I can't say it surprises me in the slightest that they will want to charge more for the product. It's the same logic that places a premium cost on HD when HD is now in the majority of households (if I read an article last night correctly) and should be considered "normal" broadcast, not premium broadcast.


----------



## prospero63

evan_s said:


> From Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
> 
> You are right that it does include a concept of a reasonable amount of time. It how ever wouldn't seem to apply to MRV from DirecTV since as far as I can remember and find searching for it DirecTV has never promised MRV or set a date. The closest thing I know of is the references to the Whole Home DVR in their financial reports but that is still to come as being set at 2009/2010. Obviously folks around here know they are working on it but that doesn't make it into vaporware. That makes it into something that under active development.


DirecTV hardly ever promises anything. They do the whole open implication, wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing.

Team Fortress 2 was under active development too. That doesn't make it any less vaporware for a good chunk of those 9 or 10 years...


----------



## prospero63

bonscott87 said:


> Ummmm, it's in testing right now with the non DVR units. See the CE forum for details. It gets expanded to more receivers as time goes on. Believe what you want...


I know it is. That's why I have called out HD-DVR's every time I have posted. I don't believe what I want, I believe what I see. I don't see MRV between any receiver someone is running. I don't even see it between any current generation receiver. Till I do, it's future product at best, and given the amount of time it's been talked about, vaporware at worst. I mean for all the work done, it could still never see the light of day.


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> So in response to me saying that some people would switch to the new TiVo you say "Thought it was reported that DirecTV thought it wasn't worth the money to fight a lawsuit." So you that is why they signed the agreement? Well duh!? That was my point. I realize the 2015 w/option for 2018, but I'm sure that option will be exercised unless something is dramatically different in 6 years.
> 
> I don't understand why some people wanting to switch to TiVo has anything to do with whether or not DIRECTV wants to fight a lawsuit (which won't happen anyway since DIRECTV & TiVo signed an agreement). That's the part I'm confused about.


Sorry Doug the way I read your posts that's why I replied the way I did if I was wrong I apologize.

There should be no confusion if DirecTV felt they wanted to completely get rid of Tivo,DirecTV would have not resigned with them period and DirecTV would have expected to fight a lawsuit with Tivo after.:sure:

But because of some demand from DirecTV's subscribers DirecTV decided to resign protecting DirecTV's DVR+ from a lawsuit with Tivo and give Tivo the ability to reproduce their HD DirecTivo which I believe is a very smart move by DirecTV to give their subscribers a choice.


----------



## Crypter

Jhon69 said:


> Sorry Doug the way I read your posts that's why I replied the way I did if I was wrong I apologize.
> 
> There should be no confusion if DirecTV felt they wanted to completely get rid of Tivo,DirecTV would have not resigned with them period and DirecTV would have expected to fight a lawsuit with Tivo after.:sure:
> 
> But because of some demand from DirecTV's subscribers DirecTV decided to resign protecting DirecTV's DVR+ from a lawsuit with Tivo and give Tivo the ability to reproduce their HD DirecTivo which I believe is a very smart move by DirecTV to give their subscribers a choice.


or maybe DirecTV signed an greement with Tivo as a sort of PAY-OFF to Tivo so that there would be no lawsuit. DirecTV has poured a lot of time and money into their own HD-DVR and I just DO NOT see them releasing a TIVO HD-DVR. At least not without a HUGE premium.

Personally I do NOT think we will ever see a new Direc-Tivo HD-DVR. That is just my opinion though.


----------



## bonscott87

Crypter said:


> or maybe DirecTV signed an greement with Tivo as a sort of PAY-OFF to Tivo so that there would be no lawsuit. DirecTV has poured a lot of time and money into their own HD-DVR and I just DO NOT see them releasing a TIVO HD-DVR. At least not without a HUGE premium.
> 
> Personally I do NOT think we will ever see a new Direc-Tivo HD-DVR. That is just my opinion though.


Basically my take on the Tivo deal has always been similar to this:

1) Keeps Tivo from suing them. Even if DirecTV could win due to their Replay patents it still would cost a lot
2) They tossed in "hey, if you think you can make a great DVR for us and you think people will pay a premium for it then have at it. But it must work on our infrastructure and offer all the features our current DVR does (interactive, etc.)"

So frankly (plus what I've seen in what Tivo has talked about) I think it's all in Tivo's court to bring this new HD DirecTivo to market and DirecTV frankly doesn't care much either way. If Tivo is successful then they (DirecTV) makes money on it and if Tivo fails at the project DirecTV is no worse off then they are today (which is doing pretty darn good).


----------



## Tom Robertson

prospero63 said:


> I know it is. That's why I have called out HD-DVR's every time I have posted. I don't believe what I want, I believe what I see. I don't see MRV between any receiver someone is running. I don't even see it between any current generation receiver. Till I do, it's future product at best, and given the amount of time it's been talked about, vaporware at worst. I mean for all the work done, it could still never see the light of day.


You do not believe what you see. You disbelieve what you see. You are choosing to deny the existence of solid evidence and at the same time apply your own definitions to suit your agenda:
1) MRV is vaporware even tho it does not even begin to meet the definition as it hasn't been announced.
2) MRV isn't happening. Since you can't see the evidence of its coming.
3) MRV is eSATA part II. Even tho DIRECTV did not announce eSATA, did wink wink it won't be expanded anytime soon. Again, you also refuse to see the brick wall in front of you.
4) eSATA is vaporware even tho it does work on ALL HD DVR+ platforms.

So, now that we know you will continue to make your choices, I'll go back to topic. DIRECTiVo has been delayed, has been announced, therefore is vaporware until it ships. But wait--it really isn't vaporware as it hasn't passed its projected born on date. I don't call that vaporware, either. (Even with the apparent delay we have before us.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

bonscott87 said:


> So frankly (plus what I've seen in what Tivo has talked about) I think it's all in Tivo's court to bring this new HD DirecTivo to market and DirecTV frankly doesn't care much either way. If Tivo is successful then they (DirecTV) makes money on it and if Tivo fails at the project DirecTV is no worse off then they are today (which is doing pretty darn good).


This is my understanding of what is happening ..


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> So, now that we know you will continue to make your choices, I'll go back to topic. DIRECTiVo has been delayed, has been announced, therefore is vaporware until it ships. But wait--it really isn't vaporware as it hasn't passed its projected born on date. I don't call that vaporware, either. (Even with the apparent delay we have before us.)


Technically TiVo has until 12/31/09 to meet their original deadline (as you noted) .. The CEO already mentioning a delay (not a real announcement) does not bode well for meeting that date, though.


----------



## Doug Brott

Please continue the MRV discussions here. Please continue the TiVo discussion here in this thread.


----------



## kramer

Doug Brott said:


> This is my understanding of what is happening ..


But things do change and hopefully E* announcement may have done this since it is maybe 2 to 3 times better than HRXX.


----------



## bonscott87

kramer said:


> But things do change and hopefully E* announcement may have done this since it is maybe 2 to 3 times better than HRXX.


Even if true that only matters to the less then 1% that know or care about such things. Joe Sixpack will not know nor care about such features, he only cares about channels and price. Thus why Tivo once owned the market now has less then 5% of the market. The general public doesn't see the advantage, assuming there is any.


----------



## t_h

I think its more fair to say that the general public wont spend the sort of up front money it takes to become a tivo subscriber without having seen it in actual use.

It took me quite a while to pony up $399 for my first series 1 and $150 for the lifetime service and I was a rich dude. About four months later I owned 5 of them.


----------



## Budget_HT

t_h said:


> ...Tivo has prior code to handle access cards and directv tuners, although only SD...


Works fine for HD in my HR10-250 DirecTV HD TiVo, not limited to "only SD."


----------



## kramer

bonscott87 said:


> Even if true that only matters to the less then 1% that know or care about such things. Joe Sixpack will not know nor care about such features, he only cares about channels and price. Thus why Tivo once owned the market now has less then 5% of the market. The general public doesn't see the advantage, assuming there is any.


So what you are saying is that D* is playing the numbers game and why have a better product when you can still have customers. WOW this sounds like cable industry!

Can only disagree because if Joe sixpacks buddy can do it and sixpack can not he or she will change. That is what is called competition and makes this country the best on the planet.

My point still stands in that if D* does not have a product that can compete with other providers product not just the HRXX than they will fail.

This is my point that someone at D* might understand this and change there mind from the original agreement since the HRXX keeps falling short and soon will be no longer in the same ball park as the competition.

I for one run out of my agreement in August and would change in a heartbeat since the HD leader is no longer and I do not subscribe to ST anymore.


----------



## bonscott87

kramer said:


> So what you are saying is that D* is playing the numbers game and why have a better product when you can still have customers. WOW this sounds like cable industry!
> 
> Can only disagree because if Joe sixpacks buddy can do it and sixpack can not he or she will change. That is what is called competition and makes this country the best on the planet.
> 
> My point still stands in that if D* does not have a product that can compete with other providers product not just the HRXX than they will fail.
> 
> This is my point that someone at D* might understand this and change there mind from the original agreement since the HRXX keeps falling short and soon will be no longer in the same ball park as the competition.
> 
> I for one run out of my agreement in August and would change in a heartbeat since the HD leader is no longer and I do not subscribe to ST anymore.


Perhaps there are many that think the HR2x is actually better then Tivo, you never know.

Look, the facts are this: The general public thinks that all DVRs are Tivo. Most of my friends now have a DVR of one sort or another. Only one has an actual real Tivo. Every single one of them calls their DVR a Tivo. And most of these are "techie" people no less.

So when the real Tivo comes along and wants to offer them a Tivo box that costs X amount up front and costs extra per month most people say "well I already have a Tivo, I don't need that".

If the "quality" of a receiver was any indication of keeping a subscriber, 25+ million cable DVRs subs would have left cable years ago. But they don't. Because the crappy cable DVR does what they want...records their shows and they can play them back. That's all they want. It's just a digital VCR to them.

Certainly I'm not claiming that DirecTVs DVRs are in the same class as a cable DVR nor cllaiming they are better or worse then a Tivo. Only each individual can decide that. But it's *very* obvious that neither Dish nor DirecTV, nor Fios nor cable need Tivo for anything. Tivo's stand alone sub numbers continue to decline, their Comcast Tivo has been a failure and now the new DirecTV agreement is in trouble. Face the fact that the general public just doesn't care about Tivo.

Again, I hope that DirecTV has a Tivo option. It will hopefully shut up a few diehards that cry and moan about Tivo all day every day. But DirecTV doesn't need Tivo at all to survive, far from it. Thinking otherwise is just plain goofy.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bonscott87 said:


> Perhaps there are many that think the HR2x is actually better then Tivo, you never know....
> 
> Look, the facts are this:


I'd have to agree with every single facet of your post.

Some folks have a lust for Tivo, some folks certainly don't.

If and when they release a new Tivobox...great....those folks will likely be happy.

The majority of users - the rest - will move on just as well too.

Ther reality of the release of this unit is *not* any kind of salvation, game-winner, or end-all technology.

It's an alternative...nothing more....nothing less...


----------



## Sixto

My HR2x Wishlist:

Upgrade to a newer (faster) Broadcom processor. Hopefully with 2x-3x the performance.
Performance similar to H2x. The faster the better.

New "Pro" remote with tactile feedback and concurrent home theatre receiver on/off.
Similar to the TiVo Glo Remote which has crisp tactile feedback for every press and also supports the power on/off of the HR2x, TV, and Home Theatre Receiver all with one press of the power on/off button.

Multi-Room-Viewing (MRV)
Already in development. Would also like the ability to copy/move a recording from one HR2x to another HR2x within the same home/account for archival purposes (safe keeping).

HD GUI
A crisp clear full-screen HD Graphical User Inferface (GUI) for all on-screen functions.

DirecTV2GO
Ability to copy a recording to a PC and watch with Windows Media Player (WMP) and allow transfer to an iPOD. Should perform similarly to TiVo-To-Go (TTG).

High performance HD Photo Application
Similar to the TiVoHD Photo application where PC folders can be browsed, thumbnails shown, and photos selected individually for HD display. Performance is critical. Need performance similar (or better) then the TiVoHD Photo application.

Ability to move eSATA drive from one HR2x to another HR2x within the same home/account
To be used when replacing a defective HR2x or when swapping two HR2x's from one room to another within the same home. This is critical so that data is not lost when an HR2x fails for a reason other then a hard drive failure.

Dual-Live-Buffers (DLB)
Similar to TiVoHD DLB. No longer a significant high priority for this home but it would be nice.

My DirecTV TiVoHD Wishlist:

Assuming that the box will at least support the following DirecTV HR2x features:
MPEG4
SWM
Access to DirecTV-On-Demand (DOD) library
Remote DVR Scheduling
Interactive features

*Must include* the following existing TiVoHD features
MRV
TiVo Desktop with support for TiVo-to-Go (TTG), Music, and HD Photos
DLB
TiVo Search
Would be nice to have existing broadband features: Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, CinemaNow, Home Movie Sharing, Rhapsody, Photobucket/Picasa.
Others may require KidZone and WishList but not needed here.

TV Picture during all on-screen functions (this may be mandatory).
Newer Broadcom processor with double/triple the performance (similar to HR2x Wishlist above).
HD GUI (similar to HR2x Wishlist above).


----------



## psweig

Sixto said:


> My HR2x Wishlist:
> 
> Upgrade to a newer (faster) Broadcom processor. Hopefully with 2x-3x the performance.
> Performance similar to H2x. The faster the better.
> 
> New "Pro" remote with tactile feedback and concurrent home theatre receiver on/off.
> Similar to the TiVo Glo Remote which has crisp tactile feedback for every press and also supports the power on/off of the HR2x, TV, and Home Theatre Receiver all with one press of the power on/off button.
> 
> Multi-Room-Viewing (MRV)
> Already in development. Would also like the ability to copy/move a recording from one HR2x to another HR2x within the same home/account for archival purposes (safe keeping).
> 
> HD GUI
> A crisp clear full-screen HD Graphical User Inferface (GUI) for all on-screen functions.
> 
> DirecTV2GO
> Ability to copy a recording to a PC and watch with Windows Media Player (WMP) and allow transfer to an iPOD. Should perform similarly to TiVo-To-Go (TTG).
> 
> High performance HD Photo Application
> Similar to the TiVoHD Photo application where PC folders can be browsed, thumbnails shown, and photos selected individually for HD display. Performance is critical. Need performance similar (or better) then the TiVoHD Photo application.
> 
> Ability to move eSATA drive from one HR2x to another HR2x within the same home/account
> To be used when replacing a defective HR2x or when swapping two HR2x's from one room to another within the same home. This is critical so that data is not lost when an HR2x fails for a reason other then a hard drive failure.
> 
> Dual-Live-Buffers (DLB)
> Similar to TiVoHD DLB. No longer a significant high priority for this home but it would be nice.
> 
> My DirecTV TiVoHD Wishlist:
> 
> Assuming that the box will at least support the following DirecTV HR2x features:
> MPEG4
> SWM
> Access to DirecTV-On-Demand (DOD) library
> Remote DVR Scheduling
> Interactive features
> 
> *Must include* the following existing TiVoHD features
> MRV
> TiVo Desktop with support for TiVo-to-Go (TTG), Music, and HD Photos
> DLB
> TiVo Search
> Would be nice to have existing Netflix, Amazon, and YouTube access.
> 
> TV Picture during all on-screen functions (this may be mandatory).
> Newer Broadcom processor with double/triple the performance (similar to HR2x Wishlist above).
> HD GUI (similar to HR2x Wishlist above).


Deserves repetition.


----------



## davel

Tom Robertson said:


> I actually think DIRECTV knows exactly how they will do the GUI part of HR to HR MRV. (But I have not seen it so I'm just going on "How DIRECTV works".)
> 
> Remember, DIRECTV uses a well known strategy for writing code: small changes. Well tested. Then move on to the next small change. Hence the 3 phases of MRV: Client, Sever, together. Only together will be two phases (at least in testing) H21/22/23 first then HR2x to HR2x. Sure, I'd like to see them have done HR2x first but then again I don't fit their normal customer model at all.  So I can wait. (Only by watching lots of HD.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Seriously? The HR platform was total crap when it came out. It was not even Microsoft standard of 90% complete and 10% service packs. If it is so well tested, why did my HR-20's drop CCHD from the guide and not pick up the new sportsman channel? I agree with the vaporware part of this thread. I'll believe it when I see it. The only reason people moved off of their tivo's was because we had directv and couldn't get the mp4 HD channels. Tivo already has MRV, DLB, tivo to go, remote recording, netflix, etc.

Why did tivo have it? Because their OS was hackable and therefore people developed on it and they adopted the hacks. DTV is more of the parents telling the kids what to do.

I get tired of the fan boys of DTV and their "process". The only reason I have 3 HR-20's is because I want HD and there was no MRV for the last 2 years. I would gladly trade my 3 units for the current Tivo technology without loss of channels.

Being an IT guy, their PM is total crap. What have they delivered? Media share? Well kind of, no trick play unless you have VIIV. Stable platform? Yes after 2 years. Glitch free audio and video? No. Constant Video and audio sync? No. DLB? No, but a crappy work around. MRV? No. Esata? Not really, why would I add a drive to REPLACE my internal drive? If I plug in a drive I want it to add to the storage capacity, else I will replace the internal HD. DTV2PC (tivo to go just not as good)? No, yes it works but only supports on monitor. If I have to occupy my only monitor with the show, I will take my laptop infornt of the TV.

The only thing I like better than the tivo is the internal drive replacement process (which is poo-pood here)

They never have a plan or state when they will deliver.

And BTW, want to see media share with trick play? Look no further than the Xbox360 and netflix. That is over internet and with accounts and queues and what not. Implement it like that without the account and queues, and I am happy.


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## newsposter

some people think tivos are like cell phones...getting cheaper every year and packing all these features  I just want all existing hdtivo and hr20 features in one machine. Then i'd be happy


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## Sixto

newsposter said:


> some people think tivos are like cell phones...getting cheaper every year and packing all these features  I just want all existing hdtivo and hr20 features in one machine. Then i'd be happy


and add the newest Broadcom processor to give the box the performance it needs ... and an HD GUI would be a nice addition. Other then that we said the same thing.


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## spidey

davel said:


> Seriously? The HR platform was total crap when it came out. It was not even Microsoft standard of 90% complete and 10% service packs. If it is so well tested, why did my HR-20's drop CCHD from the guide and not pick up the new sportsman channel? I agree with the vaporware part of this thread. I'll believe it when I see it. The only reason people moved off of their tivo's was because we had directv and couldn't get the mp4 HD channels. Tivo already has MRV, DLB, tivo to go, remote from recording, netflix, etc.


I have had the HR20 since it first came out and I have to totally disagree with the HR20 was crap statement. Yes some people had major issues but from my experience no way was it like early releases from Microsoft.

This forum and response from DTV have made the entire experience worthwhile, ask your friends on cable if they have similar facilities for discussion and early testing etc.


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## hdtvfan0001

davel said:


> Seriously? The HR platform was total crap when it came out.


Two HR20-700 units and 2 years of use later...I can testify that your statement is *totally false*. 

Yes, they underwent changes, updates, and improvements over time, but that can *also be said *for any DVR model that DirecTV, Dish, and the cable folks issue to their users....

Your assessment and repeated use of the description "crap" is clearly bogus and out of line. If that's your opinion, fine, but its an opinion of no more or less value than the many who disagree.


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## veryoldschool

You got to love a free speech forum [please]. While I may not agree with a posting, I shouldn't "rip them a new one", but "simply" post my opinion too.
Total piece of..., I don't think so, but [again] that's only my opinion.


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## tfederov

I do trick play with media share and my videos just fine.


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## Steve

tfederov said:


> I do trick play with media share and my videos just fine.


Probably because you're one of the 12 Viiv users on this forum.  For the rest of us TVersity or WMP users, watching videos is a dicey proposition. Often I'll get half-way through a 45 minute AVI file, only to have the HR drop the connection (on my hardwired 100mpbs network). Once that happens, there's no way to FF to the point I left off... I have to restart from the beginning (and pray I'll get through the whole thing the next time). Something as basic as a recording starting on one of the sat tuners is enough to cause a media sharing problem.

If DirecTV wants to get media sharing right, IMHO, they need to nuke the current implementation and start from scratch, especially the UI. They should either license and embed a multimedia player and playlist app inside the HR2x and simply stream files to it (like some DVD players do it), or like FiosTV, they should write their own server app for the PC that allows for end-to-end control over the shared content.

Just my .02. /steve


----------



## davel

tfederov said:


> I do trick play with media share and my videos just fine.


Right, and I am about to spend $400 on a board and proc and ram and put Vista 32 bit on when I have 7 perfectly good AMD machines in the house running Vista 64, server 2008 64, server 2003 64, so I can do trick play.

I ask everyone this, if DTV offered a current tivo with all of the mp4 HD channels for a free swap of the HR-x, how many of you wouldn't be first in line. I know I would.


----------



## davel

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Two HR20-700 units and 2 years of use later...I can testify that your statement is *totally false*.
> 
> Yes, they underwent changes, updates, and improvements over time, but that can *also be said *for any DVR model that DirecTV, Dish, and the cable folks issue to their users....
> 
> Your assessment and repeated use of the description "crap" is clearly bogus and out of line. If that's your opinion, fine, but its an opinion of no more or less value than the many who disagree.


Considering they reinvented the wheel because they refused to pay Tivo prices and offered a DVR that was far inferior compared to the tivo's that we all gave up, my assessment is correct. To this day the prioritizer still isn't as good as Tivo was in 2001. How hard is it to record a show that is on once then later record a show that is on multiple times. If both shows can be recorded, it shouldn't matter what order they are in.

When I got my first HD DVR I hit down and nothing happened. Years later, down still doesn't do anything despite thousands of posts and numerous complaints. Yet up gives me a quick favorites, guess favorites is a priority and DLB is not. I did see maybe one post here about favorites.


----------



## vikingguy

I don't care about a ton of features. Give me a Hr10-250 with MPEG4 support and MRV and I am happy as hell. All I want is a DVR that is rock solid stable with MRV. Also I hope once the DVR is rock stable they don't update it every other week like direct tv does with the HRxx series. I am willing to pay up to 20 dollars more a month to get that rock solid DVR. If Tivo wants to charge its regular fee on each DVR then I will be forced to stay with my buggy un reliable HR20.

Those with out issues with the HRxx series I envy you because I am reaching the boiling point on my buggy HR20. I am sick of having to RBR it almost every single day to avoid 771 errors and instant keep or delete bug.


----------



## veryoldschool

vikingguy said:


> I don't care about a ton of features. Give me a Hr10-250 with MPEG4 support and MRV and I am happy as hell. All I want is a DVR that is rock solid stable with MRV. Also I hope once the DVR is rock stable they don't update it every other week like direct tv does with the HRxx series. I am willing to pay up to 20 dollars more a month to get that rock solid DVR. If Tivo wants to charge its regular fee on each DVR then I will be forced to stay with my buggy un reliable HR20.
> 
> Those with out issues with the HRxx series I envy you because I am reaching the boiling point on my buggy HR20. I am sick of having to RBR it almost every single day to avoid 771 errors and instant keep or delete bug.


If any of my three DVRs did this, they would have been replaced a long time ago. Two years ago, I had this with mine, but a software update [Feb/Mar '07] solved this and since then it would seem to be a hardware defect causing it now.


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## loudo

vikingguy said:


> Also I hope once the DVR is rock stable they don't update it every other week like direct tv does with the HRxx series.


If you get updates every other week, you must get special updates the rest of us are not getting. My last NR, on my non CE HR20, was 12/23.


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## Richierich

davel said:


> I ask everyone this, if DTV offered a current tivo with all of the mp4 HD channels for a free swap of the HR-x, how many of you wouldn't be first in line. I know I would.


Depends on whether it is DirecTiVo Lite or will it have alot of the Bells & Whistles we have come to love plus the Best of Directv's Current Platform enhanced with the TIVO software.


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## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> If you get updates every other week, you must get special updates the rest of us are not getting. My last NR, on my non CE HR20, was 12/23.


Yeah, I thought that statement sounded odd. I don't get updates very often at all, and the last was over a month ago.


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## vikingguy

veryoldschool said:


> If any of my three DVRs did this, they would have been replaced a long time ago. Two years ago, I had this with mine, but a software update [Feb/Mar '07] solved this and since then it would seem to be a hardware defect causing it now.


I would love to replace it but I don't want a HR21-22-23 because of the AM21 issues. Most of my recordings are OTA so that must come first. I will look at replacing my buggy HR20 when they solve all the issues with the am21. Now if direct TV could get me a HR20 I would be game for a swap but since they can't guarantee anything I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can either deal with buggy OTA and pay 50 dollars for that privilege or deal with resetting my receiver every day and hope the signal strength on tuner 1 can hold out 10 hours till prime time TV is done. I am holding out hope that the next software release will put my DVR back were it was before this last update when my issues started.


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## Richierich

RaceTripper said:


> Yeah, I thought that statement sounded odd. I don't get updates very often at all, and the last was over a month ago.


Have you tried forcing a Software Update?

My last Software Update or NR Download was on Jan. 14, 2009.


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## Steve

I just want a kick-ass TV recording and watching appliance.

I'd gladly trade the ACTIVE CHANNEL, MEDIA SHARE, DIRECTV2PC, WIDGETS, NETWORK SERVICES and yes, even MRV, for the ability to record a third simultaneous program via OTA (like the Dish DVR's can), and some enhanced SEARCH, SCHEDULING and AUTORECORDING. DLB and VOD would be welcome bonuses.

MRV would be nice, but for the # of times I might use it, I can live without it... especially if I can record 3 simultaneous shows on one box. That takes away the primary reason I might use it. That's just me tho, I realize others really want this feature. /steve


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## Richierich

There is a way to do that. Buy 2 HR2X DVRs and then you will have 4 Tuners and 100 Series Links and lots of space, I just love it.


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## JTWestside

davel said:


> Seriously? The HR platform was total crap when it came out. It was not even Microsoft standard of 90% complete and 10% service packs. ...


Oh boy, you are so right. And just because of that you've hit a raw nerve with the fan-boy posse and you will be flogged appropriately!

Don't worry there are exponentially more people who agree with you than not, they've just been run off by the same drone of "my HR has been perfect for 100 years and I love it" that you're going to get now. The truth is in most cases DIRECTV has the most channels (and a contract) and that's why we're here.


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## Steve

richierich said:


> There is a way to do that. Buy 2 HR2X DVRs and then you will have 4 Tuners and 100 Series Links and lots of space, I just love it.


I'm afraid that only addresses the tuner problem.

I'm hopeful DirecTV takes a long hard look at the promise of the 922 and delivers a comparable product: 5 simultaneous recordings (including 1 VOD), 1TB internal storage, enhanced search, and web control and remote viewing via LAN and WAN. Now that's a TV recording and watching machine, IMHO... at least on paper. Whether or not they can deliver it remains to be seen. At least they're trying, tho. /steve


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## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> I'm afraid that only addresses the tuner problem.
> 
> I'm hopeful DirecTV takes a long hard look at the promise of the 922 and delivers a comparable product: 5 simultaneous recordings (including 1 VOD), 1TB internal storage, enhanced search, web control and remote viewing via LAN and WAN. Now that's a TV recording and watching machine, IMHO... at least on paper. Whether or not they can deliver it remains to be seen. At least they're trying, tho. /steve


My H30 HD DVR test unit is certainly far superior...:lol:


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## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My H30 HD DVR test unit is certainly far superior...:lol:


Hey, they deliver 3 tuners right now. And the Sling stuff is a proven commodity loved by many on here.  /steve


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## veryoldschool

vikingguy said:


> I would love to replace it but I don't want a HR21-22-23 because of the AM21 issues.


Again you have me 
I have an AM21 and it works great. It's a much better tuner than what's in my HR20.


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## Richierich

Yes, just what are the AM21 Issues as mine works GREAT!!!

Did I miss something somewhere when I wasn't tuned in???


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## Doug Brott

vikingguy said:


> Also I hope once the [TiVo] is rock stable they don't update it *every other week* like direct tv does with the HRxx series.


I'm not sure how your Calendar works, but the last national release was December 17, 2008 which was over 1 month ago.


----------



## loudo

JTWestside said:


> Don't worry there are exponentially more people who agree with you than not, they've just been run off by the same drone of "my HR has been perfect for 100 years and I love it" that you're going to get now. The truth is in most cases DIRECTV has the most channels (and a contract) and that's why we're here.


I can only speak for myself, but when the changed my HR10-250 out for my HR20-700, I was a little reluctant to get rid of the TIVO unit. But that went away when I saw how much faster the HR20 responded and the big improvement over the old TIVO guide and menu. I do miss the DLB, but have learned to live with it. It would be nice to see it in a DirecTV unit.

I understand a few people have had problems with their units, but when you figure out the millions of units out there, it is about the average of any electronic product. You have to remember, you hear more about the units that go bad here because many do not come here until their unit starts to act up. Then a few of theml come here just to flame the unit, instead of looking for a solution. Then you have the DISH fan boys that come over here and flame the DirecTV units, and yes, I am sure that there are the DirecTv fab boys that do the same on the DISH threads.


----------



## Steve

richierich said:


> Yes, just what are the AM21 Issues as mine works GREAT!!!
> 
> Did I miss something somewhere when I wasn't tuned in???


They did clear up the severe AM21 trickplay problems a couple of months ago. Now the only lingering issue, AFAIK, is the overall performance hit on the boxes they are connected to. *RandCfilm *has been running some timing tests here and in the last two CE discussion threads, including the current one. /steve


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## kramer

Keep on drinking the cool aid bonsacott and HDTVFAN but the rest us are holding out.:nono2:


----------



## Doug Brott

kramer said:


> Keep on drinking the cool aid bonsacott and HDTVFAN but the rest us are holding out.:nono2:


The last official announcement has the TiVo coming out in the second half of 2009 .. some may want that to be July, but reality would say December (regardless of who makes the announcement). The CEO has already pushed that into 2010 through a less formal comment. It's not been declared dead yet .. but, the odds have gone up that it will be declared dead.


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## hdtvfan0001

kramer said:


> Keep on drinking the cool aid bonsacott and HDTVFAN but the rest us are holding out.:nono2:


Haven't had a drop of Koolaid in 35+ years....

But they also make Tivo-flavored ya know...

In any case....we'll all look with some form of curiosity if and when it's released, whether some just have a passing interest, or those who seem to have a lust for it.


----------



## Crypter

vikingguy said:


> I would love to replace it but I don't want a HR21-22-23 because of the AM21 issues. Most of my recordings are OTA so that must come first. I will look at replacing my buggy HR20 when they solve all the issues with the am21. Now if direct TV could get me a HR20 I would be game for a swap but since they can't guarantee anything I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can either deal with buggy OTA and pay 50 dollars for that privilege or deal with resetting my receiver every day and hope the signal strength on tuner 1 can hold out 10 hours till prime time TV is done. I am holding out hope that the next software release will put my DVR back were it was before this last update when my issues started.


What issues are you talking about?

I have 2 HR20's, an HR21 + AM21, and an HR22 + AM21 and from my experience so far I actually get more reliable and stronger signal on the 2 HR's with the AM21's. I have had ZERO issues with my AM21's.


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## vikingguy

Crypter said:


> What issues are you talking about?
> 
> I have 2 HR20's, an HR21 + AM21, and an HR22 + AM21 and from my experience so far I actually get more reliable and stronger signal on the 2 HR's with the AM21's. I have had ZERO issues with my AM21's.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1963527&postcount=181

This issue is enough to scare me off the AM-21. Right now 90% of my recording are OTA. Any sort of hick up in OTA is unacceptable.


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## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> The last official announcement has the TiVo coming out in the second half of 2009 .. some may want that to be July, but reality would say December (regardless of who makes the announcement). The CEO has already pushed that into 2010 through a less formal comment. It's not been declared dead yet .. but, the odds have gone up that it will be declared dead.


Or did it get pushed back for CES2010?.Or because of a bad economy they decided to push the Tivo software on the HRs?.The plot thickens.

If it was me I would take the best features from Tivo,Replay,NDS,and DirecTV and turn out one awesome HDDVR software and use the HRs and R22s.


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## wingrider01

davel said:


> I ask everyone this, if DTV offered a current tivo with all of the mp4 HD channels for a free swap of the HR-x, how many of you wouldn't be first in line. I know I would.


No thank you please it only makes me sneeze, don't need another HR10 series SDT in my house again


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## Steve

Steve said:


> They did clear up the severe AM21 trickplay problems a couple of months ago. Now the only lingering issue, AFAIK, is the overall performance hit on the boxes they are connected to. *RandCfilm *has been running some timing tests here and in the last two CE discussion threads, including the current one. /steve


Ya. *Vikinguy's* post made me realize I had forgotten I was still seeing the jagged transitions to and from commercials (and within shows like _24_ that have fades to and from black) before I "decommissioned" my Hr21/AM21/750GB combo prior to Christmas, because of extremely sluggish performance. If you follow *Vikinguy's* links, it takes you to an excellent video of the issue here. /steve


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## Capmeister

Steve, I've not experienced that on any of mine. 

As for the Tivo, I'd get one to have around and test, but honestly the only thing I miss is being able to scan at 1x and still see CC.


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## Crypter

Steve said:


> Ya. *Vikinguy's* post made me realize I had forgotten I was still seeing the jagged transitions to and from commercials (and within shows like _24_ that have fades to and from black) were still there before I "decommissioned" my Hr21/AM21/750GB combo prior to Christmas because of extremely sluggish performance. If you follow *Vikinguy's* links, it takes you to an excellent video of the issue here. /steve





vikingguy said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1963527&postcount=181
> 
> This issue is enough to scare me off the AM-21. Right now 90% of my recording are OTA. Any sort of hick up in OTA is unacceptable.


Well maybe that is bad luck. I record TONS of OTA stuff because all my wife's shows and most of my shows come from OTA so I have never noticed this at all on either of my AM21 setups. I never watch commercials so maybe I just have not noticed it. But to be honest I could care less if it only happens during commercials.

I have had no problems at all. But I have only owned my AM21's for about a month. Hopefully it stays this way for me.

*KNOCKS ON WOOD*


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## Steve

Crypter said:


> [...]But to be honest I could care less if it only happens during commercials. [...]


You're right. It's not a huge issue, and I'm sure many folks don't notice it, especially those who aren't anal like me about resuming play right before the end of the commercial. :lol: If I miss it, I'll hit REPLAY to get me to the point of the transition.

As you can see from the video, tho, it can happen during the show, if there's a fade to (or from) a solid color. Here's a screen grab I made 2-3 months ago that shows it as well.

I guess the bottom line is if it doesn't happen with HR20 OTA, the hope is the AM21 OTA can be tweaked so it doesn't happen there either. /steve


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## trainman

Doug Brott said:


> The CEO has already pushed that into 2010 through a less formal comment.


I'm not as convinced as you seem to be that an informal comment of "next year," made in early January 2009, definitively means "2010"...given how long it takes many people to start writing the correct year on their checks.


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## jimb726

trainman said:


> I'm not as convinced as you seem to be that an informal comment of "next year," made in early January 2009, definitively means "2010"...given how long it takes many people to start writing the correct year on their checks.


How many of them are CEO's of a company who has a bunch to lose or gain based on said product?


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## Doug Brott

trainman said:


> I'm not as convinced as you seem to be that an informal comment of "next year," made in early January 2009, definitively means "2010"...given how long it takes many people to start writing the correct year on their checks.


Feel free to think that way .. It may have been off the cuff, as I didn't hear the exact phrasing .. but it sure is a comment that turned some eyebrows and little (if anything) has been done to squash those remarks. Don't forget the "no comment" @ CES on a product that was announced over 3 months earlier.

Both of these happened around the same time and don't shine a positive light on things.


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## Tom Robertson

Steve said:


> Probably because you're one of the 12 Viiv users on this forum.  For the rest of us TVersity or WMP users, watching videos is a dicey proposition. Often I'll get half-way through a 45 minute AVI file, only to have the HR drop the connection (on my hardwired 100mpbs network). Once that happens, there's no way to FF to the point I left off... I have to restart from the beginning (and pray I'll get through the whole thing the next time). Something as basic as a recording starting on one of the sat tuners is enough to cause a media sharing problem.
> 
> If DirecTV wants to get media sharing right, IMHO, they need to nuke the current implementation and start from scratch, especially the UI. They should either license and embed a multimedia player and playlist app inside the HR2x and simply stream files to it (like some DVD players do it), or like FiosTV, they should write their own server app for the PC that allows for end-to-end control over the shared content.
> 
> Just my .02. /steve


Steve, sounds like a server problem on your end. I serve mpg files to my DVRs without fail, at least 4 times a week, sometimes 4 times a night. The only times I have any problems are when my server has a momentary issue with other processes and a performance tuneup corrected that. (and gave me a faster running computer.) 

Happy Chinese New Year!
Tom


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## bonscott87

trainman said:


> I'm not as convinced as you seem to be that an informal comment of "next year," made in early January 2009, definitively means "2010"...given how long it takes many people to start writing the correct year on their checks.


Seeing as they didn't show anything at CES and refused to even comment on the product after not being able to stop talking about it for months certainly doesn't bode well. I don't know how anyone can ignore the signs.


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## bonscott87

jimb726 said:


> How many of them are CEO's of a company who has a bunch to lose or gain based on said product?


No kidding. If he was mistaken about saying 2010 there would have been an immediate press release correcting him to save the stock from possibly being effected. Tivo did not correct his comment and then at CES they refused to talk about it at all. I don't get how people can put their heads in the sand and ignore the signs.


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## Steve

Tom Robertson said:


> Steve, sounds like a server problem on your end. I serve mpg files to my DVRs without fail, at least 4 times a week, sometimes 4 times a night. The only times I have any problems are when my server has a momentary issue with other processes and a performance tuneup corrected that.


Which server are you running on your PC?

It also happens often when a recording starts on the HR2x I'm streaming to, so I know that the HR2x is to blame in some instances.



> Happy Chinese New Year!


Back atcha!  Year of the Ox, if I'm not mistaken. /steve


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## Tom Robertson

I'm using WMP on XP and Vista. Everything is transcoded in advance.

And so far, I've yet to have a problem when an HR20 starts a recording during streaming.

So the plot thickens.


----------



## Steve

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm using WMP on XP and Vista. Everything is transcoded in advance.
> 
> And so far, I've yet to have a problem when an HR20 starts a recording during streaming.
> 
> So the plot thickens.


I'll try switching to WMP (XP SP3) from TVersity. One issue I have with WMP is that changes to the libraries are not immediately reflected on the HR2x. Do you know a way to force a refresh? TIA. /steve


----------



## Tom Robertson

What I do is pull up windows media player and browse the library. That seems to affect a change very quickly.

Happy Bubble Wrap Appreciation Day!
Tom


----------



## Steve

Tom Robertson said:


> What I do is pull up windows media player and browse the library. That seems to affect a change very quickly.


Thanks, but no luck. I also stopped and restarted WMP a couple of times, rebooted the PC and the H20-200, and unplugged and replugged the H20 network cable, all to no avail.

For whatever reason, the H20-200 is stubbornly caching the old WMP library entries and won't show the new ones. /steve


----------



## dave2323

Steve said:


> Ya. *Vikinguy's* post made me realize I had forgotten I was still seeing the jagged transitions to and from commercials (and within shows like _24_ that have fades to and from black) before I "decommissioned" my Hr21/AM21/750GB combo prior to Christmas, because of extremely sluggish performance. If you follow *Vikinguy's* links, it takes you to an excellent video of the issue here. /steve


Yeah, I've seen that too. I've had a 23/AM21 for a few weeks now. Noticed it one night last week during a recorded Law and Order. Doesn't happen all the time though. Not a big deal except sometimes I'd swear I'm missing a small chunk of the program.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> Don't forget the "no comment" @ CES on a product that was announced over 3 months earlier.


By the same token, D* announcements at CES haven't been a very accurate indicator of what is coming (or not).


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> By the same token, D* announcements at CES haven't been a very accurate indicator of what is coming (or not).


Oh come on .. The AM21 and DIRECTV2PC from last year made the cut, but the HDPC-20 did not. We also saw the HR21Pro which was introduced @ CES 2008. It wasn't until later in 2008 that the HDPC-20 became an un-reality.

TiVo went from touting the next big thing with DIRECTV to actively shutting up about it .. something's fishy there.

Now as for accuracy of comments @ CES .. Since much of the stuff is forward looking you certainly have to take some comments with a grain of salt. It may or may not be true. The point about TiVo saying "No Comment" is that they aren't even far enough along to show a mock-up of the product and to say "it's coming" which would have been a LOT more indicative of a positive even if they were shading the truth.

So to answer your statement .. Yes, both DIRECTV's and TiVo's participation and how they handle themselves is indicative of what is to come.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> Oh come on .. The AM21 and DIRECTV2PC from last year made the cut, but the HDPC-20 did not.


Of these, which generated the most excitement?


> We also saw the HR21Pro which was introduced @ CES 2008.


Which absolutely shriveled in comparison to the previously announced "Pro" DVR.


> It wasn't until later in 2008 that the HDPC-20 became an un-reality.


Not so much an unreality as being relegated to the back burner if you believe the DIRECTV speech.

DIRECTV2Go was a big deal as was satellite delivered VOD on the R15. D*'s direct competitor managed to pull off both with seemingly little effort.

If you're going to announce something really cool, you should deliver it. If it is going to be a partial effort like Media Share that requires a crash course in networking and TCP/IP, don't bother.


----------



## jacmyoung

My speculation was that the timing of the new DirecTiVo project announcement was very interesting that it was made more as a jab at E*, rather a whole-hearted commitment by D*.

At the time of the press release, TiVo and E* was in a heated debate in the court as how to calculate the additional damages E* needed to pay TiVo during the stay of the injunction. TiVo argued that the rate should have been increased from $1.20 to $2.50.

It was at that time the new DirecTivo agreement news was released, and mostly quoted by TiVo as how the new agreement would have a higher fee paid by D* than the old $0.89/mo.

Now please understand it was only my speculation. It made a big impression on me of the timing of it all which had let me to think maybe this whole new agreement was for show.

Of course the fact after the news release D* never mentioned it again, and TiVo is now not saying anything about it as well, seem to point to that direction.

Again no proof, only speculation.


----------



## jal

If anyone reading this truly has information about the status of the new HD Directivo, many of us would appreciate hearing about it. I'm still looking forward to getting it.


----------



## jimb726

jal said:


> If anyone reading this truly has information about the status of the new HD Directivo, many of us would appreciate hearing about it. I'm still looking forward to getting it.


I would venture to guess that the fact that there is no "true" information out there, is the reason this thread has 1,950 posts in it. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Of these, which generated the most excitement?


Actually, it was the AM21, in terms of posts here.


> Which absolutely shriveled in comparison to the previously announced "Pro" DVR. Not so much an unreality as being relegated to the back burner if you believe the DIRECTV speech.


The PRO DVR was intended to be a "niche product", and yet was still released as announced.


> If you're going to announce something really cool, you should deliver it. If it is going to be a partial effort like Media Share that requires a crash course in networking and TCP/IP, don't bother.


Apparently you do not understand the concept or intent of the CES show or comparible "announcement" venues.

The vast majority of "new" technology at these shows, as well as those announced in press releases there, are at various stages of development, mostly as "prototypes".

As such, a number of them never see the light of day in production - its commonplace for that....which is why they are announced as "planned new products" and not "soon to be delivered new products". They are similar to concept cars at an auto show - which often do not see the light of day either.

In some cases, from the time of concept to actual production can be a year or more...and alot can happen in that amount of time, including a change of priorities, lack of budget funding, new competitor products being released, and other factors which require a "re-thinking" of the plans.

Products far enough along to be pre-production are announced as such, and end up in the marketplace.

As for the DirecTV/Tivo plans...those are at the earliest of stages...so again...alot can happen. We may very well see an interesting new product released some time later in 2009 - early 2010, or not.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> If you're going to announce something really cool, you should deliver it. If it is going to be a partial effort like Media Share that requires a crash course in networking and TCP/IP, don't bother.


Apparently you don't understand how it works .. DIRECTV's announced products @ CES 2008 was an indication of their direction. TiVo announced a product in September and then chose to say "no comment" @ CES 2009 .. that too is an indication of their direction.

Apparently you want to bring the word "accurate" into play with respect to DIRECTV .. which, BTW, I never said. Quite the contrary, some of DIRECTV's announcements didn't turn into real products. So yeah, by the same token DIRECTV's CES announcement are "indicators" but not necessarily "accurate indicators."


----------



## jjohns

Man, can this site get any more pro-directv??


----------



## loudo

jjohns said:


> Man, can this site get any more pro-directv??


After all, you are on the DirecTV section of DBSTalk.com.


----------



## jjohns

Discussing the issues of the D* products versus any type of D* criticism makes you automatically and E* lover – thus a dressing down – sure gets tiresome.

For Pete’s sake, it’s just a box.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> My speculation was that the timing of the new DirecTiVo project announcement was very interesting that it was made more as a jab at E*, rather a whole-hearted commitment by D*.
> 
> At the time of the press release, TiVo and E* was in a heated debate in the court as how to calculate the additional damages E* needed to pay TiVo during the stay of the injunction. TiVo argued that the rate should have been increased from $1.20 to $2.50.
> 
> It was at that time the new DirecTivo agreement news was released, and mostly quoted by TiVo as how the new agreement would have a higher fee paid by D* than the old $0.89/mo.
> 
> Now please understand it was only my speculation. It made a big impression on me of the timing of it all which had let me to think maybe this whole new agreement was for show.
> 
> Of course the fact after the news release D* never mentioned it again, and TiVo is now not saying anything about it as well, seem to point to that direction.
> 
> Again no proof, only speculation.


The only proof is that Tivo signed another agreement with DirecTV(unless you want to speculate about that too.) which means no lawsuit!.


----------



## Jhon69

jjohns said:


> Discussing the issues of the D* products versus any type of D* criticism makes you automatically and E* lover - thus a dressing down - sure gets tiresome.
> 
> For Pete's sake, it's just a box.


No it's more for me and DirecTV!.That light circle compels me to Love It!!.:love1::heart:


----------



## Jhon69

loudo said:


> After all, you are on the DirecTV section of DBSTalk.com.


:thats:!rolling:rotfl::yesman:


----------



## jacmyoung

Jhon69 said:


> The only proof is that Tivo signed another agreement with DirecTV(unless you want to speculate about that too.) which means no lawsuit!.


You seem to imply that the new agreement was to avoid any potential lawsuit from TiVo? If so you can understand why D* is not too eager to implement it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Like so many other things in life, there probably wasn't just "one" reason DIRECTV signed the agreement. The press announcement did indicate one part of the reasons was to avoid potential litigation.

And since DIRECTV mentioned a premium revenue stream, I'm pretty sure that litigation avoidance wasn't the only reason... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I believe that the new HD DVR box with Tivo's partnership can work...but in this economy....I'm equally sure that its rollout roadmap and value proposition are worthy of (and undergoing) ongoing re-assessments by both parties.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> You seem to imply that the new agreement was to avoid any potential lawsuit from TiVo? If so you can understand why D* is not too eager to implement it.


Implement what?.The new DirecTivo?.That's supposed to be designed and maintained by Tivo,just like my HR10-250 is.

And the HRs and Rs are safe from litigation.


----------



## Jhon69

Tom Robertson said:


> Like so many other things in life, there probably wasn't just "one" reason DIRECTV signed the agreement. The press announcement did indicate one part of the reasons was to avoid potential litigation.
> 
> And since DIRECTV mentioned a premium revenue stream, I'm pretty sure that litigation avoidance wasn't the only reason...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Here's another article that verifies that also.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm

I believe that the reasons are John Malone likes Tivo,so does AT&T.Rupert did not.


----------



## t_h

Doug Brott said:


> Apparently you don't understand how it works .. DIRECTV's announced products @ CES 2008 was an indication of their direction. TiVo announced a product in September and then chose to say "no comment" @ CES 2009 .. that too is an indication of their direction.


Or it means something completely different, since it "works" more than one way...

Perhaps Directv started getting concerned about cannibalization of their sales by people who decided to wait until the tivo product became available. So by mutual agreement the tivo guys were to keep it on the down low until there is an actual product close to being available.

In old school marketing, its called "Osborning" yourself.

My bet is the conversion rate of SD Directivo users dropped to near zero, and the new HR subs coming from non DVR or SA tivo bases also tapered off, as people decided to wait a little while and see what the new product looks like.


----------



## Richierich

So. t_h, how long did you work for the CIA??? OSBORNING???

Have you read "LEGACY OF SECRECY" by WALDRON???


----------



## jacmyoung

Jhon69 said:


> Implement what?.The new DirecTivo?.That's supposed to be designed and maintained by Tivo,just like my HR10-250 is.
> 
> And the HRs and Rs are safe from litigation.


Implement what? To make it happen.

The hardware is supposed to be manufactured by D* and subsidized by D*, TiVo would just collect their $1.50 fee from D*, yes they would do the R&D and support but still it would be no real investment from TiVo.

BTW, the "another article" you cited was pretty much the press release on 9/3, one day before the 9/4 TiVo v. E* hearing in which TiVo argued they should be rewarded a higher royalty fee, coincidence?

D* should not be very concerned about any lawsuit from TiVo since D* owns ReplayTV now. And when the TiVo v. E* case ends in a no contempt, is when I think the final nail will be on this new DirecTiVo project because D* will have absolutely no fear at all.


----------



## t_h

richierich said:


> So. t_h, how long did you work for the CIA??? OSBORNING???
> 
> Have you read "LEGACY OF SECRECY" by WALDRON???


Nah, I was just a marketing guy for a really big company.

In the early 1980's a fellow named Adam Osborne created what was arguably the first "portable" computer, the portable also being arguable since I remember hauling one through airports for about six months. Shortly after releasing his "Osborne 1" he told everyone about its successor, the Osborne 2, and how great it was going to be.

Everyone was impressed. So impressed they didnt buy the 1 and waited for the 2. Osborne went out of business before he could get it out the door.

So marketing 101 involves avoiding doing and saying the sorts of things that cannibalize your current sales because you made an impressive announcement about future products.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> Implement what? To make it happen.
> 
> The hardware is supposed to be manufactured by D* and subsidized by D*, TiVo would just collect their $1.50 fee from D*, yes they would do the R&D and support but still it would be no real investment from TiVo.
> 
> BTW, the "another article" you cited was pretty much the press release on 9/3, one day before the 9/4 TiVo v. E* hearing in which TiVo argued they should be rewarded a higher royalty fee, coincidence?
> 
> D* should not be very concerned about any lawsuit from TiVo since D* owns ReplayTV now. And when the TiVo v. E* case ends in a no contempt, is when I think the final nail will be on this new DirecTiVo project because D* will have absolutely no fear at all.


Well I wish Charlie luck,think he's going to need it.

So it seems your trying to insinuate that the only reason DirecTV resigned with Tivo was to avoid litigation?.As Tom said I think that is only part of it too with the other part being to offer DirecTV subscribers a choice plus maybe other things that DirecTV and Tivo won't talk about now.:sure:


----------



## jacmyoung

Jhon69 said:


> Well I wish Charlie luck,think he's going to need it.
> 
> So it seems your trying to insinuate that the only reason DirecTV resigned with Tivo was to avoid litigation?.As Tom said I think that is only part of it too with the other part being to offer DirecTV subscribers a choice plus maybe other things that DirecTV and Tivo won't talk about now.:sure:


No it was you who seemed to imply the only reason was to avoid being sued by TiVo, Tom said there was another reason, though I doubt this other reason is very much on D*'s mind right now.


----------



## jacmyoung

t_h said:


> Nah, I was just a marketing guy for a really big company.
> 
> In the early 1980's a fellow named Adam Osborne created what was arguably the first "portable" computer, the portable also being arguable since I remember hauling one through airports for about six months. Shortly after releasing his "Osborne 1" he told everyone about its successor, the Osborne 2, and how great it was going to be.
> 
> Everyone was impressed. So impressed they didnt buy the 1 and waited for the 2. Osborne went out of business before he could get it out the door.
> 
> So marketing 101 involves avoiding doing and saying the sorts of things that cannibalize your current sales because you made an impressive announcement about future products.


Of course for this analogy to apply one must first assume D* is dying in such a fast rate that only the new DirecTiVo "NOW!" would save them.

But the reality is the opposite D* has been enjoying suprisingly healthy growth with its own DVRs while switching its TiVo subs to its own brand of DVRs, TiVo on the other hand was projected to lose another 750k subs in two years, that is out of their meager 3.6 million from a few months ago. And consider that in 2007 TiVo had 4.6 (?) million subs.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> No it was you who seemed to imply the only reason was to avoid being sued by TiVo, Tom said there was another reason, though I doubt this other reason is very much on D*'s mind right now.


The Premium unit, ie the DVR with TiVo inside likely isn't on DIRECTV's mind very much yet, still a bit too early.

I suspect there are a few status phone calls, updated timelines, etc. in anticipation of the actual launch preparations that will start as the unit is closer to reality.

Both companies' investors conference calls will be the things to watch for the next 9 months. If we don't hear anything in the next 3 quarterly calls, especially TiVo's, then things are likely very much delayed as TiVo won't be able to forecast sales without a mention (I should think.)

But all this is so future...


----------



## Sixto

11/25/2008 (TiVo CEO to Analysts):"We also recently announced a new agreement with DirecTV, a partner with which we have had a very successful history. Expected in the second half of next year, DirecTV will market a version of TiVo built on DirecTV's broadband enabled HD DVR platform, allowing DirecTV customers to use a TiVo DVR with all of DirecTV's high definition programming. The agreement also reestablishes DirecTV as a key national marketing and distribution partner for TiVo. Financially speaking, the per-subscriber fees we receive from DirecTV with respect to the new platform are substantially higher than those under the existing deal, which when combined with a significant national marketing commitment from DirecTV, presents an attractive growth opportunity for TiVo ... which we think will pay substantial fruit starting next year."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/108039-tivo-f3q09-qtr-end-10-31-08-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1​12/10/2008 (SEC Filing):"On September 3, 2008, the Company extended its current agreement with DIRECTV for the development, marketing, and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service. Under the terms of this non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with a goal, but not a contractual obligation, to launch in the second half of calendar year 2009. DIRECTV, upon deployment of high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service, is entitled to recoup, over time, a portion of certain development fees through a reduction in certain subscription fees. The new agreement also extends the mutual covenant not to sue with respect to each company's products and services throughout the term of the new agreement."

"Under this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo (when and if the new version of the TiVo service is deployed) than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. The Company will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded by DIRECTV."

http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-08-251359​01/07/2009 (at Citi Conference): "Next year". (To be fair, the TiVo CEO may have been referring to 2009 despite the fact that he was speaking in 2009.)​Early January 2009 (at CES): "No comment".​Late January 2009 (Derrick Nueman with TiVo investor relations):"Our goal remains to have the DirecTV TiVo available in the second half of 2009."​Let's see what they say late February ...


----------



## Doug Brott

Thanks Sixto .. Hadn't heard the last comment yet, but it's good to see TiVo is finally doing some damage control.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> No it was you who seemed to imply the only reason was to avoid being sued by TiVo, Tom said there was another reason, though I doubt this other reason is very much on D*'s mind right now.


Actually it was a DirecTV executive vice president.

you can read it again if you like.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm

So for one I am very glad of the decisions made by DirecTV concerning this issue.


----------



## HDinMA

What are the chances D* will allow folks to migrate _back_ to Tivo after all but forcing them to give up their beloved HR10-250 MPEG2 receivers to get the HR2* MPEG4 ones? 

My guess is ... it will come *at a price*.


----------



## wingrider01

HDinMA said:


> What are the chances D* will allow folks to migrate _back_ to Tivo after all but forcing them to give up their beloved HR10-250 MPEG2 receivers to get the HR2* MPEG4 ones?
> 
> My guess is ... it will come *at a price*.


everything comes at a price - TANSTAAFL, business 101


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> [...]"Under this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo (when and if the new version of the TiVo service is deployed) than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service."[...]


This line alone makes me wonder why TiVo isn't working 24/7 to get this product out ASAP. What other irons could TiVo have in the fire that are potentially more lucrative than recapturing the lost DirecTV HR10 subscriber revenues?

If I was a TiVo shareholder, I'd certainly be asking that question. Makes me think there's more to the story than we're hearing publicly.

Just my .02. /steve


----------



## dodge boy

I've had both and I honestly prefer the DirecTv interface, aside from DLB the old TiVo didn't do anything else that the D* units do unless you hacked them.


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> What other irons could TiVo have in the fire that are potentially more lucrative than recapturing the lost DirecTV HR10 subscriber revenues?


Because there are a lot more opportunities in the cable television marketplace and they are working feverishly on SDV?

TiVo would seem to make a whole lot more money per unit servicing their standalone machines.


----------



## jacmyoung

Jhon69 said:


> Actually it was a DirecTV executive vice president.
> 
> you can read it again if you like.
> http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2008-09-03-tivo-directv_N.htm
> 
> So for one I am very glad of the decisions made by DirecTV concerning this issue.


My point was D* should no longer be concerned about this issue.


----------



## jacmyoung

harsh said:


> Because there are a lot more opportunities in the cable television marketplace and they are working feverishly on SDV?
> 
> TiVo would seem to make a whole lot more money per unit servicing their standalone machines.


And also:



> ...with a goal, but not a contractual obligation, to launch in the second half of calendar year 2009...


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> Because there are a lot more opportunities in the cable television marketplace and they are working feverishly on SDV?
> 
> TiVo would seem to make a whole lot more money per unit servicing their standalone machines.


Perhaps, but in 2007, DirecTV customers still accounted for 2/3 of the TiVo subscriber base world-wide. Not sure how many of those lost DirecTiVo subscriptions have been replaced by new Comcast subs. /steve


----------



## Albie

Steve said:


> This line alone makes me wonder why TiVo isn't working 24/7 to get this product out ASAP. What other irons could TiVo have in the fire that are potentially more lucrative than recapturing the lost DirecTV HR10 subscriber revenues?
> 
> If I was a TiVo shareholder, I'd certainly be asking that question. Makes me think there's more to the story than we're hearing publicly.
> 
> Just my .02. /steve


Possibly because they are contractually obligated to get the Comcast and Cox projects to production. As far as I can tell they seem to be nowhere close on either. Comcast is still limited to New England customers and Cox has not seen even limited rollout.


----------



## Flyrx7

So, I'm curious about a couple things.
- Just how involved is NDS with the current software of the HR units, are they still behind the patches and new features in the CE process or is the software under Liberty Media's purview now? 
- If it's still NDS, how does that relationship work with Tivo?
- If NDS isn't supplying the current software, who is?

Frank


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> Perhaps, but in 2007, DirecTV customers still accounted for 2/3 of the TiVo subscriber base world-wide. Not sure how many of those lost DirecTiVo subscriptions have been replaced by new Comcast subs. /steve


I think the most important point was TiVo's real cash cow comes from serving their own "standalone" subs, where they can charge $13/mo. instead of $1.00 or less.

The other point is, it does not matter what TiVo feels like, rather what D* feels like, because D* is under no contractual obligation to do it.

I don't know much about the Comcast and Cox agreements, are Comcast and Cox "contractually obligated" to provide TiVo services?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

NDS is not involved at all in the development of DIRECTV HD DVRs. All that work is done by DIRECTV engineers in the USA.

It's also worth mentioning that DIRECTV is its own entity and while it is, to a certain extent, wise to acknowledge the wishes of its majority shareholders, it is wrong to characterize it as "Liberty Media's purview." It is DIRECTV's purview, I do not believe I have met one employee of Liberty Media.


----------



## Flyrx7

Stuart Sweet said:


> NDS is not involved at all in the development of DIRECTV HD DVRs. All that work is done by DIRECTV engineers in the USA.


Based on the following statement, at what point did the original software from NDS get purged and D*'s get implemented then?

"Under Murdoch, the DirecTV DVRs were powered by software from NDS, a company that he controls."

Or did D* have to use NDS as a build platform? Trying not to stray too far OT, but am trying to get a glimpse behind the curtain here, and maybe explain some software issues.

Frank


----------



## Albie

Stuart Sweet said:


> NDS is not involved at all in the development of DIRECTV HD DVRs. All that work is done by DIRECTV engineers in the USA.


To further what Stuart said, the only DVR boxes NDS software runs/ran on were the R15/R16 series.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> I think the most important point was TiVo's real cash cow comes from serving their own "standalone" subs, where they can charge $13/mo. instead of $1.00 or less.


Can't remember the source, but back in 2007, I remember reading that the majority of the non-DirecTV subs were "lifetime" customers. Not sure if majority meant 51% or 90%, but at most, only 1/6 of the TiVo subcribers may have been "high-paying" standalones, at that time.

Regardless, TiVo's subscription revenues for the quarter ended 1/31/07 were $53,543,000. For the quarter ended 10/31/08, they were $47,676,000. That's an average loss of $240,000 in subscription revenues per month for at least two years, the majority of which loss is probably due to DirecTV HD DVR attrition. And I suspect a good part of the remaining $47 million in revenue is still attributable to SD DirecTiVo's.

/steve


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> Can't remember the source, but back in 2007, I remember reading that the majority of the non-DirecTV subs were "lifetime" customers. Not sure if majority meant 51% or 90%, but at most, only 1/6 of the TiVo subcribers may have been "high-paying" standalones, at that time.
> 
> Regardless, TiVo's subscription revenues for the quarter ended 1/31/07 were $53,543,000. For the quarter ended 10/31/08, they were $47,676,000. That's an average loss of $240,000 in subscription revenues per month for at least two years, the majority of which loss is probably due to DirecTV HD DVR attrition. And I suspect a good part of the remaining $47 million in revenue is still attributable to SD DirecTiVo's.
> 
> /steve


Good points on both, I forgot about the "lifetime" aspect of it.

On the second point, many of the SD TiVo's will be dumped soon if they are OTA only, if you know what I mean.

TiVo is in trouble, not D*, and if even TiVo cannot "comment" on something so crucial to their livelihood, one has to think it is because D* has been giving them the run around.


----------



## bonscott87

Flyrx7 said:


> Based on the following statement, at what point did the original software from NDS get purged and D*'s get implemented then?
> 
> "Under Murdoch, the DirecTV DVRs were powered by software from NDS, a company that he controls."
> 
> Or did D* have to use NDS as a build platform? Trying not to stray too far OT, but am trying to get a glimpse behind the curtain here, and maybe explain some software issues.
> 
> Frank


As someone else just posted NDS only did the R15/16 (which has been replaced with the R22 now). NDS stopped doing the DVRs long before Liberty took over from Murdoch. Going on 3 years now.


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> Thanks Sixto .. Hadn't heard the last comment yet, but it's good to see TiVo is finally doing some damage control.


I wouldn't call it that. The only place I've seen this is someone on the Tivo forum posted that he emailed Tivo public relations who then responded and said their goal was to release it in 2009. I'd hardly call that any kind of official announcement. But I'm sure it's actually "true", they hope to still release it this year. But if they don't have a prototype or have it in beta yet then it's really not looking good.

My expectation is that if the Tivo CEO had really made a mistake in his statement that Tivo would have corrected it. But they didn't and now they won't even talk about it at CES.

Who knows what's really going on. :alterhase


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> My expectation is that if the Tivo CEO had really made a mistake in his statement that Tivo would have corrected it. But they didn't and now they won't even talk about it at CES.
> 
> Who knows what's really going on. :alterhase


We should have a fairly good idea after the next analyst call late February.

They made a big deal about it on the November call.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> We should have a fairly good idea after the next analyst call late February.
> 
> They made a big deal about it on the November call.


Agreed.

Also, by then...updated status information (internal) will be available to them.


----------



## ATARI

Well let's close this thread until then.

<ducks>


----------



## Tom Robertson

ATARI said:


> Well let's close this thread until then.
> 
> <ducks>


No, we'll just put your ability to read and post in this thread on hold until then. The good news is you will be able to see that people are posting, just not any of the posts... 

(Just kidding... but we do have some new cool tools...)


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> (Just kidding... but we do have some new cool tools...)


Indeed.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> Good points on both, I forgot about the "lifetime" aspect of it.
> 
> On the second point, many of the SD TiVo's will be dumped soon if they are OTA only, if you know what I mean.
> 
> TiVo is in trouble, not D*, and if even TiVo cannot "comment" on something so crucial to their livelihood, one has to think it is because D* has been giving them the run around.


Tivo in trouble?.I hear Dish has become Tivo's best source of income.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> No, we'll just put your ability to read and post in this thread on hold until then. The good news is you will be able to see that people are posting, just not any of the posts...
> 
> (Just kidding... but we do have some new cool tools...)


You should have told me that, I would have shut up in a hurry


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> No, we'll just put your ability to read and post in this thread on hold until then. The good news is you will be able to see that people are posting, just not any of the posts...
> 
> (Just kidding... but we do have some new cool tools...)


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooo!!!!


----------



## m4p

kramer said:


> Your comparing a 7 year device to a current model and your wonder why it is more polished?


Had no idea my Huges DVR40 was that old. My sister gave it to me and said she had it for a couple years. Of course you do have a point, even if it was only 2 years old, in this day and age, it would be considered outdated.


----------



## ghfiii

Tom Robertson said:


> Very likely the DIRECTiVo is fairly current with software polish. Or it wouldn't work on the current guide data.
> 
> (Granted, it might not have swivel search.)


According to this link at TIVO's site: www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html

It will include swivel search 

Hurry, hurry, hurry I want this box!:grin:


----------



## DMG

This may not be the right thread to post this on but I find one thing quite amusing these days. One of the big boasts that many fans of the HR2x series had about how much better it is than the HD DirecTivo was how much faster it was.

It has been a year since I used my HR10-250 but if memory serves, it was cracker jack fast at the things I did most every day: navigate the guide, scan the list of recorded shows, and playing back those shows. The pain was when you scheduled season passes or, god forbid, re-ordered your season passes. Then you should go take a long hot shower. But for the things I did all the time it was really great.

Well these days with the current software I find my HR21 to be slow at everything. Bringing up onscreen menus is pokey, sometimes to the point where I'm wondering if the remote is being sensed. The guide is really slow to come up. Deleting shows takes quite a while and you don't even get any feedback once you hit the "Delete Now" button so you aren't sure whether it got that and is working or not.

OF COURSE we need to see the new DirecTivo before concluding what it actually is but I see no reason that things will be a lot different performance-wise than with the HR10. Right now, just that would be a relief but I am looking forward to the Tivo goodies that I miss.

I hope they hit their 2009 target. Even early 2010 wouldn't be too much of a disappointment if they deliver the goods. Heck, *anytime* in 2010 will be great if they deliver what we are hoping for.


----------



## Doug Brott

DMG said:


> I hope they hit their 2009 target. Even early 2010 wouldn't be too much of a disappointment if they deliver the goods. Heck, *anytime* in 2010 will be great if they deliver what we are hoping for.


The current schedule show second half of 2009 .. even an optimist should think of that as "late 2009" since the second half of 2009 starts in just 5 months. When the TiVo was announced in September 2008, I said then that I wouldn't expect to see it for one quarter after that which would mean March 2010 .. That seems the more likely scenario at this point based on what has happened in the past month. However, those same events seemed to open up the possibility that there would not be a new TiVo.

We only know what we know and the best guess I can offer is 12+ months from now before we'll see this thing. Maybe a demonstration @ CES 2010 will be available.


----------



## Sixto

if there's a decided tone difference during the next analyst call, as compared to the November call, then we'll have official proof that all is not well ...

personally, with the announce first week in September, I thought for sure there'd be big press 4 months later at CES ... was zilch ...

but then again, the market tanked in the process ... so all bets *off* for now ... including my bet with Doug for 9/30/2009 ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> if there's a decided tone difference during the next analyst call, as compared to the November call, then we'll have official proof that all is not well ...
> 
> personally, with the announce first week in September, I thought for sure there'd be big press 4 months later at CES ... was zilch ...
> 
> but then again, the market tanked in the process ... so all bets *off* for now ... including by bet with Doug for 9/30/2009 ...


I agree, and that's the way I see things at this time too.


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> The current schedule show second half of 2009 .. even an optimist should think of that as "late 2009" since the second half of 2009 starts in just 5 months. When the TiVo was announced in September 2008, I said then that I wouldn't expect to see it for one quarter after that which would mean March 2010 .. That seems the more likely scenario at this point based on what has happened in the past month. However, those same events seemed to open up the possibility that there would not be a new TiVo.
> 
> We only know what we know and the best guess I can offer is 12+ months from now before we'll see this thing. Maybe a demonstration @ CES 2010 will be available.


Well (a deep subject) say it's the economy's in the crapper that's making this a impossibility(a new HD DirecTivo box).Then I would bring out an option to have the new HD DirecTivo software downloaded to your HDDVR+.I'm sure Tivo would need an upgrade fee with a higher DVR fee.But if you already have the HDDVR+ box.I think this could be a possibility and option.


----------



## veryoldschool

Jhon69 said:


> Well (a deep subject) say it's the economy's in the crapper that's making this a impossibility(a new HD DirecTivo box).Then I would bring out an option to have the new HD DirecTivo software downloaded to your HDDVR+.I'm sure Tivo would need an upgrade fee with a higher DVR fee.But if you already have the HDDVR+ box.I think this could be a possibility and option.


From what I've read, the boot loader won't do this.
Imagine trying to load Mac OS... on a intel platform [without the BIOS] :nono:


----------



## Jhon69

veryoldschool said:


> From what I've read, the boot loader won't do this.
> Imagine trying to load Mac OS... on a intel platform [without the BIOS] :nono:


Can't imagine(your going above my head.:sure.Thought both were based on Linux?.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Without getting really complicated, the older method TiVo used to update and boot its software was not adequate for the HR2x family. But that method could be changed by the TiVo guys, I'm sure.

The bigger issue is the hardware level device drivers need to be mated with the TiVo software. That might not be so trivial.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## veryoldschool

Jhon69 said:


> Can't imagine(your going above my head.:sure.Thought both were based on Linux?.


 Picture this: "if" a Tivo update could be done, it wouldn't be a "field upgrade", so they would need to "come this way" from DirecTV.


----------



## jacmyoung

And of course the question is not whether TiVo wants to do this, we know they want it badly, but does D* want to do it?

D* is under no contractual obligation to do it, and has yet make a single mention of it since the very first press release on 9/3/08.

And BTW, that 9/3/08 press release was mostly quoted by TiVo, one day before TiVo was to go into the courtroom to ask for a higher damage pay from Echostar--D*'s direct competitor.

It is not difficult to read between the lines here.


----------



## Steve

Actually, according to TiVo, the new software should run on the current HR2x hardware platform. Their October earnings press release stated:_ "[...] With the new deal, DIRECTV will begin marketing a version of the TiVo service that is built on DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. [...]" _

Whether or not it will be download-able via sat remains to be seen. That said, perhaps since the HR's can be network-connected, there's a little more flexibility on software delivery than in the past. /steve


----------



## Sixto

if i was TiVo, I'd be all over this. that is, if my partner was also into it.

a tivo box on directv is their best shot at an integrated robust solution.

the analog TiVo is a dead end.

the current TiVo digital/HD box needs cablecards and a tuning adapter, and is kludgey and is reluctantly supported by cable companies.

the tru2way box is somewhere in the future and again may not be liked by the cable companies.

the comcast box still needs much work. it's based on a totally new and not very efficient base.

so we're back to directv, where they can create a solid software base on solid hardware, and they've been totally successful with directv and the satellite infrastructure in the past.

just seems so easy. that is, if their partner is actually into it. which right now doesn't seem like a sure thing, which may be causing the issue.

and in the meantime, the hr2x can get better and better each day. and the general public may not care once the new TiVo box comes out, if it ever comes out.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> Actually, according to TiVo, the new software should run on the current HR2x hardware platform. Their October earnings press release stated:_ "[...] With the new deal, DIRECTV will begin marketing a version of the TiVo service that is built on DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. [...]" _
> 
> Whether or not it will be download-able via sat remains to be seen. That said, perhaps since the HR's can be network-connected, there's a little more flexibility on software delivery than in the past. /steve


Here's a thought...

Maybe the joint new box will be the means to get it and all the HR DVRs with the same (new UI) firmware later this year...including the new anticipated "look and feel"....hmmmm...


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> Actually, according to TiVo, the new software should run on the current HR2x hardware platform. Their October earnings press release stated:_ "[...] With the new deal, DIRECTV will begin marketing a version of the TiVo service that is built on DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. [...]" _
> 
> Whether or not it will be download-able via sat remains to be seen. That said, perhaps since the HR's can be network-connected, there's a little more flexibility on software delivery than in the past. /steve


What's not clear is whether or not that "broadband-enabled HD DVR" is a current model or some future iteration.


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> _ "[...] With the new deal, DIRECTV will begin marketing a version of the TiVo service that is built on DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. [...]" _...


Sounded just like the new DirecTiVo MPEG4 HD DVR to me.

I can say this, if my four HR2Xs can be turned into the new DirecTiVo boxes, provided they do not raise the fees much at all, they can have my money for a long time. Though I have serious doubt about that, very serious doubt.


----------



## Budget_HT

Doug Brott said:


> What's not clear is whether or not that "broadband-enabled HD DVR" is a current model or some future iteration.


Or perhaps "platform" is bigger than a single hardware device and refers to the whole "broadband-enabled HD DVR infrastructure." including everything in the signal path and support path that makes the HD DVR service work, which could support more than one specific type of receiver/DVR hardware.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Budget_HT said:


> Or perhaps "platform" is bigger than a single hardware device and refers to the whole "broadband-enabled HD DVR infrastructure." including everything in the signal path and support path that makes the HD DVR service work, which could support more than one specific type of receiver/DVR hardware.


...or driven by a single, standard firmware "platform"...


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> What's not clear is whether or not that "broadband-enabled HD DVR" is a current model or some future iteration.


Very true. But TiVo has already built an HD DVR on this generation of hardware.

The current standalone TiVo HD XL uses the same BCM7038/7411 chipset as the HR20, and the less expensive TiVo HD uses the same BCM7401 as the HR21 (and probably the HR22 and HR23, but I don't know know this for a fact). /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Budget_HT said:


> Or perhaps "platform" is bigger than a single hardware device and refers to the whole "broadband-enabled HD DVR infrastructure." including everything in the signal path and support path that makes the HD DVR service work, which could support more than one specific type of receiver/DVR hardware.


You're certainly free to think how you like .. but I know where my bets will be placed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> You're certainly free to think how you like .. but I know where my bets will be placed.


This is typically the point where the Kenny Rogers music starts up...

(Ya gotta know when to hold em... )


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> You're certainly free to think how you like .. but I know where my bets will be placed.


The only way I may give such wishful thinking some serious thought is if the E* 922 sells well, D* might rethink its approach and let TiVo work on its current HR2X lines to respond to the competition, without the capital expenses of manufacturing a new box.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> The only way I may give such wishful thinking some serious thought is if the E* 922 sells well, D* might rethink its approach and let TiVo work on its current HR2X lines to respond to the competition.


Interesting...

...that's of course, assuming the 922 sees the light of day in production, as opposed to its current prototype status.


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Interesting...
> 
> ...that's of course, assuming the 922 sees the light of day in production, as opposed to its current prototype status.


Maybe we should all root for the 922 to do well as soon as possible?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Maybe we should all root for the 922 to do well as soon as possible?


Me thinks you're in the wrong part of DBSTalk....


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> You're certainly free to think how you like .. but I know where my bets will be placed.


Yes, you must KNOW WHEN to HOLD THEM and KNOW WHEN to FOLD THEM!!! Great Kenny Rogers song and he sang it here at the Amphitheater in good ole Peachtree City, Ga. :lol:


----------



## David Ortiz

I'd like to know if I should hold on to my TiVo HD with lifetime service in light of this news, or just get rid of it. I had an HR10-250, which I swapped for an HR21-200, because of the MPEG-4 HD channels. I acquired the TiVo HD because I watch a lot of free TV, and routinely record more than 2 things at once.

Not knowing whether the new "DirecTiVo" will be new hardware or just new software has me unsure what to do. Do I hold on to the TiVo HD in case I can "upgrade" at a lower price from it to a newer box? Will the lifetime service be transferable? Perhaps to free lifetime TiVo software on DIRECTV's HD DVRs?


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Me thinks you're in the wrong part of DBSTalk....


Me thinks deep down you agree with me


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> Yes, you must KNOW WHEN to HOLD THEM and KNOW WHEN to FOLD THEM!!! Great Kenny Rogers song and he sang it here at the Amphitheater in good ole Peachtree City, Ga. :lol:


The question is, who do you suggest to fold now, Doug or budget_HT?


----------



## Richierich

Gosh, I would have to go with DOUG! But I think we will see the New DIRECTIVO in June 2010 based on my past experiences of waiting to be the First Person in USA to Buy and Activate an HR10-250 with DIRECTV!


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> The only way I may give such wishful thinking some serious thought is if the E* 922 sells well, D* might rethink its approach and let TiVo work on its current HR2X lines to respond to the competition, without the capital expenses of manufacturing a new box.


I would think Tom Rodgers would like to buy one.


----------



## ToddinVA

ghfiii said:


> According to this link at TIVO's site: www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html
> 
> It will include swivel search
> 
> Hurry, hurry, hurry I want this box!:grin:


I'd rather have their new HD beta search...


----------



## Doug Brott

David Ortiz said:


> I'd like to know if I should hold on to my TiVo HD with lifetime service in light of this news, or just get rid of it. I had an HR10-250, which I swapped for an HR21-200, because of the MPEG-4 HD channels. I acquired the TiVo HD because I watch a lot of free TV, and routinely record more than 2 things at once.
> 
> Not knowing whether the new "DirecTiVo" will be new hardware or just new software has me unsure what to do. Do I hold on to the TiVo HD in case I can "upgrade" at a lower price from it to a newer box? Will the lifetime service be transferable? Perhaps to free lifetime TiVo software on DIRECTV's HD DVRs?


If you keep any DVR with DIRECTV (TiVo or otherwise), your "lifetime" service should stay intact. Lifetime stays with your account, not any DVR on the account. But if you remove all DVRs or cancel the service, I believe lifetime goes away as well.


----------



## marksman

bakerfall said:


> The 50 season pass limit is an issue with the D* DVR OS, not a decision they've made. You can have over 50 on old D* Tivos and I would almost guarantee you'll be able to have them on the new ones.


Yeah and you could spend 3 hours between changes in programs on the tivo with those extended lists.

The reason why D* limits it to 50 is because it is an overhead nightmare to manage more than that. I know I had a tivo with 168 season passes on it. It became worthless at that point as making any changes could take 10 + minutes to recover any kind of response.

And since the TiVos I had did not allow you to actually watch tv and control the box, you would essentially have to write off a day of tv to manage a large season pass list.

I am a bit shocked by people saying the latest tivo brand tivos still don't let you watch tv when managing the unit. That is crazy.

Of course TiVo has always had some weird logic in their business. They would never add a space remaining meter because they thought it would be too confusing. Seriously.... I was a big a TiVo fan as every existed. I was there when the first ones came out and put down my $700 plus dollars for a 14 hour unit.. but the company has made so many mistakes over the years it is not even funny.

The best move I ever made was when I stepped up from an hr10 to an hr20.

And for the record I don't get the DLB thing at all. I still don't comprehend why such a large number of people want this, and can't understand how people are essentially mis-using their HR20s that this is some kind of massive feature they need.

I am intrigued by the prospect of a new directivo. I have a stack of tivos and directivos in the corner. I decommissioned my last tivo about 2 months ago. I have 7 or 8 of them. Don't miss any of them at this point and time.

If I had to choose who i wanted to make the DVR I will be using 5 years from now, DirecTV or TiVo, I would choose DirecTV.

Then again, let us see what TiVo can do if and when they come back to the directv world.


----------



## Steve

marksman said:


> The reason why D* limits it to 50 is because it is an overhead nightmare to manage more than that. I know I had a tivo with 168 season passes on it. It became worthless at that point as making any changes could take 10 + minutes to recover any kind of response.


I too shelled out $700 in 1999 for my first 14 hour TiVo, and there was no bigger TiVo critic than me all those years I used them. But in all fairness, they licked their scheduler problems almost 2 years ago. With the 6.x release for the HR10, it took 15-30 seconds to reprioritize 35-40 Season's Passes, down from 10-15 minutes before that! And that was on a now 5 year-old motherboard design, running with a slower CPU and less memory than the current HR2x platform.



> I am a bit shocked by people saying the latest tivo brand tivos still don't let you watch tv when managing the unit. That is crazy.


I'm among those that wish we could disable PIG/PIL on the HR2x's. We're almost constantly recording something, and everytime I bring up the GUIDE or MENU I have to hit PAUSE to prevent show or score spoilers.

Just my .02. /steve


----------



## tonypitt

Steve said:


> I'm among those that wish we could disable PIG/PIL on the HR2x's. We're almost constantly recording something, and everytime I bring up the GUIDE or MENU I have to hit PAUSE to prevent show or score spoilers.
> Just my .02.


I totally agree with that. I hate it when I have 2 football games recording simultaneously and I want to start watching after the broadcast has begun. It's miserable to try to start watching one without PiP letting me know what the score is.

The only time I ever find PiP useful is when I'm watching something that I don't really care that much about and I want to 'shell out' and set up a new recording. If I could turn off that functionality, I would.

On the Tivo vs. DirecTV DVR debate, having been a Tivo devotee and evangelist for years, I moved to DirecTV DVRs within the past 3 months. So far the only 2 things I miss are Wish Lists and Suggestions. I know a lot of people hated them, but I often found interesting shows I'd never have known about before because my Tivo picked it up as a suggestion. I wish that DirecTV would come up with some alternative to this--even if it were some kind of online application that ran apart from the DVR.


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> If you keep any DVR with DIRECTV (TiVo or otherwise), your "lifetime" service should stay intact. Lifetime stays with your account, not any DVR on the account. But if you remove all DVRs or cancel the service, I believe lifetime goes away as well.


However I think he said he had lifetime on a stand alone Tivo HD. If so then that for sure is not transferable to DirecTV. The only lifetime that is available on DirecTV is if you are grandfathered with it from many years ago. It hasn't been offered in many years.


----------



## Steve

tonypitt said:


> [...]So far the only 2 things I miss are Wish Lists and Suggestions. I know a lot of people hated them, but I often found interesting shows I'd never have known about before because my Tivo picked it up as a suggestion. I wish that DirecTV would come up with some alternative to this--even if it were some kind of online application that ran apart from the DVR.


Might want to check out this recent thread. There are ways to simulate the Wish List functionality on the HR2x, some more powerful than what TiVo used to offer (I'm not sure how TiVo has changed over the past 24 months). /steve


----------



## RandCfilm

Steve said:


> [...]I'm among those that wish we could disable PIG/PIL on the HR2x's. We're almost constantly recording something, and everytime I bring up the GUIDE or MENU I have to hit PAUSE to prevent show or score spoilers.
> 
> Just my .02. /steve


Here is where a specific channel for recorded shows would be useful, like the UTV. Channel 1020 was for My Shows, when you were finished or stopped a recording you were returned to this channel. No need to worry about spoilers because there was nothing on except for the recordings list. This might also speed up the issues with the HR21-2-3 with deletion times, transition times in and out of recordings since there would be no video to switch from or to.


----------



## Flyrx7

Or maybe if you know you're recording two games you could use the mute button just prior to ending a previous recording, and if you find yourself peeking anyway, you can use the pause button too. We can even call it a workaround.

I for one like being able to watch/listen to programming when in the guide. That was one of the few things that I didn't like about Tivo. An option would be better though for those that find it an issue, but I'd hate it if it turns out like the Tivo of old. Maybe they can come up with something similar to mute for the eyes, like a "black screen video mute" button. Just remember you heard it from me first!

Frank


----------



## Steve

Flyrx7 said:


> Or maybe if you know you're recording two games you could use the mute button just prior to ending a previous recording, and if you find yourself peeking anyway, you can use the pause button too. We can even call it a workaround.
> 
> I for one like being able to watch/listen to programming when in the guide. That was one of the few things that I didn't like about Tivo. An option would be better though for those that find it an issue, but I'd hate it if it turns out like the Tivo of old. Maybe they can come up with something similar to mute for the eyes, like a "black screen video mute" button. Just remember you heard it from me first!


I totally understand how some may like PIG/PIL. That's why our Wish List request asks that display be an option.

The default can be "on", and those of us who don't want to see it can change our preference to "off". I know were probably not going to get more GUIDE data in return for that now empty space, so if DirecTV wanted to stick an ad there, that would be OK with me... but only in that case! :lol: /steve


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> 12/10/2008 (SEC Filing) ...http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-08-251359​


hadn't really studied the filing ... search on "TE Solution" ... the entire DirecTV/TiVo agreement is online at the link ... some interesting stuff in there ...


----------



## harsh

Even more interesting is the discussion of the Reno and Provo models.

There's a whooooole lot of redacted information including the drop-dead date on TiVo delivery.

See also the section regarding Subscriber Commitment.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Even more interesting is the discussion of the Reno and Provo models.
> 
> There's a whooooole lot of redacted information including the drop-dead date on TiVo delivery.
> 
> See also the section regarding Subscriber Commitment.


yep, alot of good stuff in there ... prototype, hardware platforms, futures, development fees ... much redacted stuff but very interesting ...


----------



## t_h

Two key pieces that popped out at me right away. One is that it wont be a new box, but a software delivery on the existing Directv hardware. Second is that while a "substantially higher" fee will be charged for the tivo service per box, that may be partly or entirely deferred by directv and used in the future for development costs of next generation products.

So my read is that this will be an option on the current HR's, but perhaps not field upgradeable, and that the scary words "substantially higher fees" may not translate into a huge customer cost increase but may be escrowed by directv and paid to tivo for a future s/w release.

I'll read it in more detail tomorrow and give more analysis. I'm too dang busy watching tv shows right now


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

"Substantially higher fees" I would translate as the standard TiVo monthly service fee. I have no evidence to back it up, but it makes sense.


----------



## marksman

Steve said:


> I'm among those that wish we could disable PIG/PIL on the HR2x's. We're almost constantly recording something, and everytime I bring up the GUIDE or MENU I have to hit PAUSE to prevent show or score spoilers.
> 
> Just my .02. /steve


I am constantly recording stuff too. For those brief times when know a sporting event is on or something I don't want to be spoiled, I simply hit mute first. Even on y 65 " living room tv I can avoid looking at the PIP box. Most of the time I am watching stuff though,, thus what I am watching is up in the play box and not what I am recording. If Im done watching something I might pause it when I walk away so I am in control when i come back.

I could never imagine turning off the PIG stuff though. Not being able to actually watch tv when you are working on stuff is just backwards. The device is supposed to help you watch tv, not a green screen. That is the one thing that always bugged me about my tivos. Having my tivo not let me watch tv.

It is pretty easy to work around the pig when you want to avoid something. It is impossible, short of having a second tv next to your tv, to watch tv while you search, look at the guide, manage lists, and the rest if you have it turned off.

I don't want to spend time in front of my tv interacting with my tv but not actually watching tv. I consider that to be wasted time. I have plenty of stuff to watch and a lot of programs work fine in the smaller box while you do other things.

I still can't fathom why anyone would want to turn it off


----------



## Jhon69

harsh said:


> Even more interesting is the discussion of the Reno and Provo models.
> 
> There's a whooooole lot of redacted information including the drop-dead date on TiVo delivery.
> 
> See also the section regarding Subscriber Commitment.


What I read in the Tivo financial statement it looks like Tivo is going to do 3 models of DirecTivos?.
http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-08-251359


----------



## Sixto

Jhon69 said:


> What I read in the Tivo financial statement it looks like Tivo is going to do 3 models of DirecTivos?.
> http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-08-251359


that's the entire agreement including the previous models. the "TE Solution" is the latest ...


----------



## Jhon69

Sixto said:


> that's the entire agreement including the previous models. the "TE Solution" is the latest ...


Wonder if TE stands for"The Echostar" Solution.


----------



## Jhon69

Sixto said:


> that's the entire agreement including the previous models. the "TE Solution" is the latest ...


Hope that means Tivo will "update" my HR10-250.


----------



## t_h

marksman said:


> I still can't fathom why anyone would want to turn it off


My tv's both take a few seconds to come on, and dont respond to the mute as fast as I'd like.

If I'm in the program list, I'm probably about to put another show on, so the one thats currently on isnt interesting.

If I'm in the guide or in the menu picking something, I'm usually too distracted by what i'm doing to watch a show at the same time. In fact the noise from the PIG is a distraction and I'll usually pause it.

After having a bunch of football games ruined by the lack of any sure fire way to turn the tv on without having a PIG/PIL picture blabbing out the score, I have a very fathomable reason to turn it off. If the remote control response was fast and predictable, which it isnt on the HR's, I might have a shot at it.

But I'd just as soon turn the thing off since its useless to me at best and a huge annoyance at worst.


----------



## Sixto

some tidbits from http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-08-251359

DIRECTV will/shall:have no obligation to support TiVo with third party information contained within the Platform Documentation

otherwise use commercially reasonable efforts to obtain any required third party consents promptly after the Restatement Effective Date

use commercially reasonable efforts to ensure that DIRECTV vendors with technology or intellectual property that is required for TiVo to develop the TE Solution enter into commercially reasonable agreements with TiVo (or DIRECTV) to provide TiVo (or DIRECTV and its contractors) with reasonable cooperation and support along with any technology or licenses required for the TE Solution

will discuss and negotiate in good faith a workaround that enables TiVo to complete the TE Solution without such vendor's cooperation, support, technology or licenses

use commercially reasonably efforts to notify TiVo as promptly as practicable after it confirms that a material change to the information delivered to TiVo in the Preliminary Hardware Documentation has occurred

provide TiVo with Platform Documentation for the applicable New Platform and provide such other technical information as is reasonably necessary for TiVo to develop and initiate a PCR (or respond to a PCR initiated by DIRECTV) to port the TE Software to such New Platform

provide TiVo access to a project manager and such technical and other information as is reasonably necessary to complete a preliminary version of the TE Solution Statement of Work

provide TiVo with relevant Platform Documentation for the [*] and [*] for such model suitable for development

authorize all relevant DIRECTV vendor(s) (but not more than one manufacturer selected by TiVo at any time) to provide TiVo with such Platform Documentation in such vendor's possession

provide such Platform Documentation to TiVo promptly after the Restatement Effective Date

continue to undertake reasonable efforts to obtain consents

notify TiVo upon DIRECTV TE Acceptance

provide TiVo with access to [*] information regarding any New Platforms (as defined below) as set forth below in this Section 2.11(b).

under no obligation to provide additional information or assistance regarding New Platforms (unless otherwise set forth in this Agreement or as mutually agreed in a PCR), and TiVo will treat all information provided under this Section 2.11(b) as Confidential Information under this Agreement.

provide TiVo with access to any Preliminary Hardware Documentation (as defined below) for New Platforms then available to DIRECTV

provide TiVo with the Preliminary Hardware Documentation for each New Platform when it becomes available.

provide TiVo with Preliminary Hardware Documentation for the DIRECTV DVR Model [*] (or, if there is no DIRECTV Model [*] , the successor to DIRECTV DVR Model [*] ) no later than [*]

have no obligation to provide TiVo with information or explanations regarding the Preliminary Hardware Documentation, or to authorize DIRECTV's vendors to do so, and TiVo acknowledges that DIRECTV does not intend to devote resources to discussion of the Preliminary Hardware Documentation.​TE Solution Development Fees:In consideration of TiVo's development of the TE Solution and any other TiVo Technology under Sections 2.10 or 2.11, TiVo will invoice DIRECTV, and DIRECTV shall pay to TiVo within [*] of such invoice, development fees (" TE Development Fees ") in the aggregate amounts, and according to the payment schedules, set forth in the TE Solution Statement of Work and any PCR related to the TE Solution executed by the Parties; provided, however , that any TE Development Fees payable by DIRECTV to TiVo as of a particular date will be offset by any available Development Credit (as set forth in Section 3.14) as of such date, TiVo's invoice will show the available Development Credit, and DIRECTV shall remit a payment statement to TiVo within [*] of the date of invoice showing the amount of Development Credit applied to such invoice and the remaining amount of TE Development Fees due, if any, and will concurrently pay any such remaining amount.​


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## Sixto

the net ... TiVo gets documentation and a DirecTV project manager ... not exactly a major "joint" effort


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> the net ... TiVo gets documentation and a DirecTV project manager ... not exactly a major "joint" effort


...and typical to almost any common project....


----------



## Tom Robertson

The joint is the parts where DIRECTV has to make all the specifications, documentations, and then _changes to their infrastructure _to support the new methods for software download and data upload.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> The joint is the parts where DIRECTV has to make all the specifications, documentations, and then _changes to their infrastructure _to support the new methods for software download and data upload.


yep, comment was somewhat tongue in cheek ... lots of stuff will need to be handled ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The framework to execute the project is all there indeed.

All it takes now is the continued commitment of both parties.


----------



## BattleScott

I predict the new unit will begin EFTs no later than [*]/[*]/20[*]...


----------



## harsh

Jhon69 said:


> Hope that means Tivo will "update" my HR10-250.


It kinda sounds like it. Then again, without HD satellite service, I'm not sure how enticing it will be.


----------



## wingrider01

Jhon69 said:


> Hope that means Tivo will "update" my HR10-250.


won't happen, unit does not have the hardware capablities to handle MPEG4


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## Draconis

Jhon69 said:


> Hope that means Tivo will "update" my HR10-250.


I highly doubt it, the HR10-250 does not have a MPEG-4 decoder chipset and does not have the hardware to recognize the Ka/Ku dish.


----------



## Tom Robertson

It sounds like the legacy DIRECTV-TiVo receivers will get an update. Obviously not a hardware update, the SD one's won't get HD and the HD one's will continue to only get OTA. So I'm presuming newer features as the hardware will support. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Richierich

As long as I can use my HR10-250s as backup and to record OTA I am Good To Go!!!


----------



## loudo

Jhon69 said:


> Hope that means Tivo will "update" my HR10-250.


Not sure if it would do much good, as the HR10-250 isn't MPG4 capable.


----------



## t_h

At least you could still get all the newer tivo features, access to netflix and whatnot, get SD directv channels and if you live in the right place, all your locals in HD.


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## jacmyoung

I don't know if people are serious about this but how can they charge a "significantly higher fee" if all they do is add a few more features on the existing TiVo DVRs that are becoming obsolete soon?


----------



## Jhon69

loudo said:


> Not sure if it would do much good, as the HR10-250 isn't MPG4 capable.


Sure it will I'm SD only.

Thanks Tom.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know if people are serious about this but how can they charge a "significantly higher fee" if all they do is add a few more features on the existing TiVo DVRs that are becoming obsolete soon?


Not suppose to only on the new HD DirecTivo.

The older HD DirecTivos won't be obsolete in quite awhile they make great SDDVRs.:sure:


----------



## frederic1943

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know if people are serious about this but how can they charge a "significantly higher fee" if all they do is add a few more features on the existing TiVo DVRs that are becoming obsolete soon?


From The TiVo quarterly report
"Under this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo (when and if the new version of the TiVo service is deployed) than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service."
So the HR10-250s charge won't change


----------



## dodge boy

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know if people are serious about this but how can they charge a "significantly higher fee" if all they do is add a few more features on the existing TiVo DVRs that are becoming obsolete soon?


Nice, Tivo will still get their $12.00/month fee, and D* will get their $6.00/month DVR fee.... I for one will not put one of these in my house.


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## Steve

dodge boy said:


> Nice, Tivo will still get their $12.00/month fee, and D* will get their $6.00/month DVR fee.... I for one will not put one of these in my house.


DirecTV will pay TiVo a higher fee for subscriber households that use the new boxes. How much of that DirecTV might pass along to it's customers is up to them.

I'm sure we're not talking anything like the fee TiVo charges standalone subscribers. Probably more on the order of 2x-3x what they now pay TiVo per household per month. I'm guessing at most $5 per month per account, about 1/2 the current DirecTV DVR fee per account.

/steve


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## jacmyoung

frederic1943 said:


> From The TiVo quarterly report
> "Under this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo (when and if the new version of the TiVo service is deployed) than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service."
> So the HR10-250s charge won't change


That was my point, TiVo described only one plan, to develop a "new" MPEG4 DirecTiVo DVR box, based on the current D* DVR structure, therefore will charge a much higher fee.

Some of you wish to take that one further, reading between the lines that this plan also includes install such "new" DVR platform onto the old DirecTiVo DVRs with no fee increase. Nowhere in TiVo's statement alluded to such plan. In fact many had pointed out that the old DirrecTiVo DVRs cannot be part of the plan because they are obsolete.

But if you say the old DirecTiVo DVRs can still do SD, yes but who cares? The obsolete Toshiba HD DVD players can still do SD and some HD DVD movies, is anyone buying?


----------



## Richierich

Jhon69 said:


> Not suppose to only on the new HD DirecTivo.
> 
> The older HD DirecTivos won't be obsolete in quite awhile they make great SDDVRs.:sure:


Also, if you have OTA then you can Record HD OTA on your local channels which for me is ABC, FOX, NBC, CBS, along with PBS, etc. and that may be 70% of what I watch and alot of other people included and then you have the SD channels so it will not be OBSOLETE but it will just not be MPEG-4 capable nor will it pick up HDNET, UHD, etc. which will be moved to MPEG-4 channels.


----------



## trainman

From an article about TiVo, Inc. in today's L.A. Times:



> Four years ago, the Alviso, Calif., company was on deathwatch, having lost a crucial partnership to provide recorders for DirecTV Group Inc.'s satellite TV customers....
> 
> And the relationship with DirecTV, which is now managed by cable mogul John Malone's Liberty Media Corp., is back on track. TiVo has a contract to provide DVRs for the satellite TV company's subscribers starting in the second half of this year.


Yes, it doesn't literally say the DVRs are coming in the second half of this year, and, yes, although Tom "Next Year" Rogers is quoted in the article, he's not directly quoted on the DirecTV deal.


----------



## jacmyoung

trainman said:


> From an article about TiVo, Inc. in today's L.A. Times:
> 
> Yes, it doesn't literally say the DVRs are coming in the second half of this year, and, yes, although Tom "Next Year" Rogers is quoted in the article, he's not directly quoted on the DirecTV deal.


Yes all we hear is this one-sided drum beating by TiVo, you don't hear anything from DirecTV, or even Comcast and Cox.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> Yes all we hear is this one-sided drum beating by TiVo, you don't hear anything from DirecTV, or even Comcast and Cox.


Which is suppose to suggest?.


----------



## Steve

Jhon69 said:


> Which is suppose to suggest?.


That was just a "puff" piece. Notice the reporter didn't include any quotes from TiVo partners. Either he tried and got "no comments", or didn't try at all. I suspect the latter, because if he got a no comment, it would have been mentioned in the article, to show he at least tried to offer a balanced view.

I'm disappointed a newspaper with the reputation of the LA Times would run such a piece. Just my .02. /steve


----------



## bonscott87

t_h said:


> access to netflix and whatnot


I get Netflix right now on my DirecTV DVR. Same for Hulu, CBS, YouTube and so forth.


----------



## Lee L

bonscott87 said:


> I get Netflix right now on my DirecTV DVR. Same for Hulu, CBS, YouTube and so forth.


Well, doing it with third party programs is one thing. Having it naitively in the box so that the masses can do it (and therefore can be touted as a feature) is another.


----------



## Doug Brott

trainman said:


> From an article about TiVo, Inc. in today's L.A. Times:
> 
> Yes, it doesn't literally say the DVRs are coming in the second half of this year, and, yes, although Tom "Next Year" Rogers is quoted in the article, he's not directly quoted on the DirecTV deal.


The press release says "launch in the second half of 2009." I'm sticking with my original estimate of ~3/31/2010.


----------



## mcl77

this may have been answered, but is there any chance of one of these future HD DVRs to come equipped with a wireless internet card built in??


----------



## Doug Brott

mcl77 said:


> this may have been answered, but is there any chance of one of these future HD DVRs to come equipped with a wireless internet card built in??


The answer is unknown, but IMHO is unlikely. An external wireless adapter can be used and can be replaced if there are problems without replacing the entire receiver (thus losing programs, etc.).


----------



## Steve

mcl77 said:


> this may have been answered, but is there any chance of one of these future HD DVRs to come equipped with a wireless internet card built in??


We had a recent discussion about the pros and cons of your idea here. /steve


----------



## Tom Robertson

mcl77 said:


> this may have been answered, but is there any chance of one of these future HD DVRs to come equipped with a wireless internet card built in??


I think you're more likely to see a wireless HDMI first. But that has to become an industry standard, a solid standard before we'll see that.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## frederic1943

One thing I was wondering about is how the new boxes will be marketed. 
Does anyone know whether the TiVo boxes will be leased boxes like the HR2Xs or will they be an owned box like the HR10-250s for $600-$700. 
If the boxes are to be ordered through DirecTV I'd expect them to be leased. If they have to be ordered through TiVo they'll probably need to be bought.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> The answer is unknown, but IMHO is unlikely. An external wireless adapter can be used and can be replaced if there are problems without replacing the entire receiver (thus losing programs, etc.).


Many of us have that exact setup...works well and does the job.


Tom Robertson said:


> I think you're more likely to see a wireless HDMI first. But that has to become an industry standard, a solid standard before we'll see that.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Actually....we saw a number of manufacturers touting "wireless HD" at the CES this year - based on exactly what Tom is describing. Some of these devices...HDTV's, Blu Ray players, Digital Amps, etc...were pretty impressive.


----------



## Tom Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Actually....we saw a number of manufacturers touting "wireless HD" at the CES this year - based on exactly what Tom is describing. Some of these devices...HDTV's, Blu Ray players, Digital Amps, etc...were pretty impressive.


The good news is I've seen them the previous two CESs. The bad news, I saw them at the two previous CESs and they still don't have a true standard yet.

That said, I do think they are getting much closer to reality.


----------



## RaceTripper

For what it's worth a retention CSR at D* told me the TIVO boxes will be available by the end of the year. Not that they really know, but they are saying it.

The announced price hikes got me to thinking about service and what I want. The DISH ViP 922 coming out seems very compelling and the service would cost me about the same as I pay with D*, so I called to discuss canceling service after 10 years of subscribing. 

I got some concessions for the next year but told them I'm not committing to anything since the service is still not very compelling anymore; i.e. the hardware and software is dated and lackluster.


----------



## Jhon69

RaceTripper said:


> For what it's worth a retention CSR at D* told me the TIVO boxes will be available by the end of the year. Not that they really know, but they are saying it.
> 
> The announced price hikes got me to thinking about service and what I want. The DISH ViP 922 coming out seems very compelling and the service would cost me about the same as I pay with D*, so I called to discuss canceling service after 10 years of subscribing.
> 
> I got some concessions for the next year but told them I'm not committing to anything since the service is still not very compelling anymore; i.e. the hardware and software is dated and lackluster.


Well I had a Retenton CSR tell me DirecTV never had the DVR fee included in the Premier package.

Just as long as you realize both DirecTV and Dish have a different selection of channels.While some are the same, others are not and may never be.So what some may say is a better DVR is negated by lack of programming.

I'm looking forward to the new HD DirecTivo.


----------



## RaceTripper

Jhon69 said:


> ...Just as long as you realize both DirecTV and Dish have a different selection of channels.While some are the same, others are not and may never be.So what some may say is a better DVR is negated by lack of programming....


The only thing I saw missing from DISH that I'd want is Speed HD, but that's no longer a deal breaker since Speed has such a miniscule amount of worthwhile programming anymore, and the little they have that's good can be found on the internet. I didn't notice anything else significant that's missing, although I haven't done a channel for channel comparison.

Anyway, since I've now reduced my D* bill for a while I may just wait to see if they really do the new TIVO. If it's competitive with the DISH 922 then I might stay.


----------



## Lord Vader

Jhon69 said:


> I'm looking forward to the new HD DirecTivo.


As long as you can remain patient. The new HD TIVOs are *at least* a year away.


----------



## wingrider01

RaceTripper said:


> The only thing I saw missing from DISH that I'd want is Speed HD, but that's no longer a deal breaker since Speed has such a miniscule amount of worthwhile programming anymore, and the little they have that's good can be found on the internet. I didn't notice anything else significant that's missing, although I haven't done a channel for channel comparison.
> 
> Anyway, since I've now reduced my D* bill for a while I may just wait to see if they really do the new TIVO. If it's competitive with the DISH 922 then I might stay.


Don;t forget Dish just replaced Smithsonian HD with the Crime and Investigation Network HD


----------



## psweig

Jhon69 said:


> Well I had a Retenton CSR tell me DirecTV never had the DVR fee included in the Premier package.
> 
> Just as long as you realize both DirecTV and Dish have a different selection of channels.While some are the same, others are not and may never be.So what some may say is a better DVR is negated by lack of programming.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the new HD DirecTivo.


Your CSR is playing with words. It wasn't called "premier"; it was called something else that I am trying to remember, but it was the same package. The DVR fee was included.


----------



## Jhon69

psweig said:


> Your CSR is playing with words. It wasn't called "premier"; it was called something else that I am trying to remember, but it was the same package. The DVR fee was included.


You might be thinking of Total Choice Premier as it was known in 2005.


----------



## Jhon69

Lord Vader said:


> As long as you can remain patient. The new HD TIVOs are *at least* a year away.


As I'm not HD yet my HR10-250 helps ease the pain.

I also run the R22 on the same TV,I can see the pluses and minuses on both systems.


----------



## RaceTripper

Jhon69 said:


> You might be thinking of Total Choice Premier as it was known in 2005.


I still have Total Choice Plus. It works out to be $3/mon cheaper than with the current packages.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RaceTripper said:


> I still have Total Choice Plus. It works out to be $3/mon cheaper than with the current packages.


Likewise here.


Lord Vader said:


> As long as you can remain patient. The new HD TIVOs are *at least* a year away.


That remains to be seen...but its also not out of the realm of possibilities...


----------



## gimp

frederic1943 said:


> One thing I was wondering about is how the new boxes will be marketed.
> Does anyone know whether the TiVo boxes will be leased boxes like the HR2Xs or will they be an owned box like the HR10-250s for $600-$700.
> If the boxes are to be ordered through DirecTV I'd expect them to be leased. If they have to be ordered through TiVo they'll probably need to be bought.


The HR10-250 was designed under contract by TiVo for DirecTV. It was DirecTV's in every way: manufacture, distribution, support and monthly service. DirecTV "licensed" the TiVo software and pays TiVo a fee for each box in service. I am quite certain the next HD DirecTiVo box will follow the same model, except this time they will be leased like the HR2x series.


----------



## bonscott87

DirecTV conference call today. Let's see if they totally ignore Tivo once again or actually say something about it. I think if they ignore it again you can pretty much bank that a release this year is on very shaky ground.


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> DirecTV conference call today. Let's see if they totally ignore Tivo once again or actually say something about it. I think if they ignore it again you can pretty much bank that a release this year is on very shaky ground.


btw, the TiVo earnings release isn't until 3/2/2009 so it will be a while before we hear from TiVo.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bonscott87 said:


> DirecTV conference call today. Let's see if they totally ignore Tivo once again or actually say something about it. I think if they ignore it again you can pretty much bank that a release this year is on very shaky ground.


It was purely a financial report.

Nothing strategic mentioned in the posted notes.


----------



## Steve

I thought the call was at 2PM EST? /steve


----------



## bonscott87

Yep, starting right now. Yes, it is mainly financial results but they do take Q&A and often they will get future outlook questions. I would think Tivo coming back would effect their bottom line in some way.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, starting right now. Yes, it is mainly financial results but they do take Q&A and often they will get future outlook questions. I would think Tivo coming back would effect their bottom line in some way.


I thought the earlier information was coming from the call - obviously not.

There is a new thread on the call content that Bonscott is reporting/blogging.


----------



## bonscott87

No mention of Tivo by either DirecTV or from the questions.


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> No mention of Tivo by either DirecTV or from the questions.


you did a GREAT job with the blog.


----------



## Sartori

I'm sticking with my HR21 Pro's, beats the Tivo hands down......


----------



## mikela

They only beat the current tivo box D is using. If you put a S3 or HD tivo on directv service that would be the ultimate box. I have a bad feeling that D will not allow tivo to carry over all of it's bells and whistles. If that's true then what's the point?


----------



## Richierich

Our bonscott87 is a BLOGGER!!!

Where's the Link?


----------



## Steve

mikela said:


> They only beat the current tivo box D is using. If you put a S3 or HD tivo on directv service that would be the ultimate box. I have a bad feeling that D will not allow tivo to carry over all of it's bells and whistles. If that's true then what's the point?


Depends what bells and whistles you're looking for. E.g., I personally have no need for ACTIVE features, Widgets or DirecTV2PC.

My "dream" DVR would have four simultaneous tuners, hold at least 3 weeks of GUIDE data and offer sophisticated (Google-like) SEARCH/AUTORECORD capability.

Web access for searching and scheduling recordings using a keyboard would be nice. VOD and MRV as well, but none of these three features would be mandatory.

Just my .02. YMMV.  /steve


----------



## Richierich

Steve said:


> Depends what bells and whistles you're looking for. E.g., I personally have no need for ACTIVE features, Widgets or DirecTV2PC.
> 
> My "dream" DVR would have four simultaneous tuners, hold at least 3 weeks of GUIDE data and offer sophisticated (Google-like) SEARCH/AUTORECORD capability.
> Just my .02. YMMV.  /steve


I've got that with my HR21-700/HR23-700 connected to my 55" Samsung LCD with 4 Tuners, 100 Series Links and 3000 Gigabytes of Storage Space and if one DVR fails to Record my Golf I have it Recorded on the other one.

Ain't Life Like A Box Of Chocolates???

You just NEVER KNOW what you are going to get!!!:lol:


----------



## wingrider01

richierich said:


> I've got that with my HR21-700/HR23-700 connected to my 55" Samsung LCD with 4 Tuners, 100 Series Links and 3000 Gigabytes of Storage Space and if one DVR fails to Record my Golf I have it Recorded on the other one.
> 
> Ain't Life Like A Box Of Chocolates???
> 
> You just NEVER KNOW what you are going to get!!!:lol:


Now if they would just give me dual tuners on a PCI express 2.0 card that I can plug 3 of them in my Media Server and distribute video to every TV in the house from my rack system. I doubt this will ever come about but we can but wish.


----------



## loudo

richierich said:


> I've got that with my HR21-700/HR23-700 connected to my 55" Samsung LCD with 4 Tuners, 100 Series Links and 3000 Gigabytes of Storage Space and if one DVR fails to Record my Golf I have it Recorded on the other one.


That is as cool as a hole in one. :hurah:


----------



## Tom Robertson

richierich said:


> Our bonscott87 is a BLOGGER!!!
> 
> Where's the Link?


On the front page of DBStalk.com


----------



## dodge boy

I volunteer to field test one of these bad boys.....


----------



## Tom Robertson

dodge boy said:


> I volunteer to field test one of these bad boys.....


This thread has over 2,000 posts. The line started before this thread did. The end of the line is way, way over there. ------------->

Keep going, you ain't even close yet......

Just a whole lot further.....

Ok, you might want to rent a plane to get to it....


----------



## gimp

wingrider01 said:


> Now if they would just give me dual tuners on a PCI express 2.0 card that I can plug 3 of them in my Media Server and distribute video to every TV in the house from my rack system. I doubt this will ever come about but we can but wish.


Done!


----------



## ejjames

(Taps Tom on shoulder)..."Hey! How've you been? It's so great to see you! You don't mind if I just cut in behind you, do you? Great, thanks a bunch!


----------



## Tom Robertson

ejjames said:


> (Taps Tom on shoulder)..."Hey! How've you been? It's so great to see you! You don't mind if I just cut in behind you, do you? Great, thanks a bunch!


Let's put it this way...Season tickets to Packers games are easier to get. God is #11,387 on the waiting list (this year) and even He can't get a break.


----------



## ntwrkd

You can sign up for updates on the TiVo site. May be a long time before you get any info by the latest news however.....
http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html


----------



## dodge boy

Tom Robertson said:


> This thread has over 2,000 posts. The line started before this thread did. The end of the line is way, way over there. ------------->
> Keep going, you ain't even close yet......
> Just a whole lot further.....
> Ok, you might want to rent a plane to get to it....


Looks like alot of people left the line for a potty break... 

I hope this thing works for all the TiVo fans (it will) I really do prefer the interface of the DirecTv untis. If D* incorporates that into the Tivo and puts some Tivo like things in the D* units they will have great DVRs IMHO.


----------



## wingrider01

gimp said:


> Done!


Funny don't see anything about Directv feed to them. can buy those for a dime a dozen already.


----------



## gimp

Sorry, thought you were talking about ota...



wingrider01 said:


> Funny don't see anything about Directv feed to them. can buy those for a dime a dozen already.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Tom Robertson said:


> Let's put it this way...Season tickets to Packers games are easier to get. God is #11,387 on the waiting list (this year) and even He can't get a break.


Yeah, but for the Tivo, God is #14,893...right after me:sure:


----------



## Richierich

Why would anyone want to go to a Packers Game now that they have lost their QB??? That is 3 Question Marks!!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ntwrkd said:


> You can sign up for updates on the TiVo site. May be a long time before you get any info by the latest news however.....
> http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html


Thanks for the link. 

That's pretty cool.

Mike


----------



## Brandon428

Nice,I just signed up myself.


----------



## Tom Robertson

richierich said:


> Why would anyone want to go to a Packers Game now that they have lost their QB??? That is 3 Question Marks!!!


I'll go 

Went last year too.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Tom Robertson said:


> I'll go
> 
> Went last year too.


Do you have a popup that tells you anytime the Packers are mentioned? 

Mike


----------



## kanderna

Tom Robertson said:


> I'll go
> 
> Went last year too.


The Green Bay Packers? I didn't realize they still had a team! :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

kanderna said:


> The Green Bay Packers? I didn't realize they still had a team! :lol:


yes they do. It's Detroit that no longer does...


----------



## kanderna

Tom Robertson said:


> yes they do. It's Detroit that no longer does...


Aaahhhh... OK. So hard to tell without John Madden spouting off each week!


----------



## Steve Rhodes

jcwest said:


> Now the TIVO freaks will be jumping for joy today.


I had TiVo for a long time and still have a couple in my house. It was fun when it was only thing out there.

Now, I LOOOOOOVE my HR20s, and would have to be paid to go back to what I now realize the miserable TiVo in contrast.


----------



## Que

Steve Rhodes said:


> I had TiVo for a long time and still have a couple in my house. It was fun when it was only thing out there.
> 
> Now, I LOOOOOOVE my HR20s, and would have to be paid to go back to what I now realize the miserable TiVo in contrast.


How do you even know, when it is NOT EVEN OUT. If your happy with what you have great but, there is a lot of us who are not happy. This gives them one last option with D*.


----------



## ATARI

richierich said:


> Why would anyone want to go to a Packers Game now that they have lost their QB??? That is 3 Question Marks!!!


Actually they have a very fine QB. And Rodgers did a better job than #4 did last season. If the Packers can just get a pass rush, we'll be in the running for the playoffs this year.


----------



## Jhon69

Que said:


> How do you even know, when it is NOT EVEN OUT. If your happy with what you have great but, there is a lot of us who are not happy. This gives them one last option with D*.


Guess it's easier to make a decision when you don't have nothing to compare it to.You would believe by reading these posts that there is some type of competition between the two which there is not as D* will offer both HDDVRs.

The real fun will be when D* subscribers can compare the two then that will be an interesting read.

As for myself there are things I like and dislike on each DVR.:sure:


----------



## bonscott87

Jhon69 said:


> The real fun will be when D* subscribers can compare the two then that will be an interesting read.
> 
> As for myself there are things I like and dislike on each DVR.:sure:


Very true. The only problem is that other then the fanboys, the general public isn't going to pay extra for "Tivo". Especially when they already think they have a Tivo.


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve Rhodes said:


> I had TiVo for a long time and still have a couple in my house. It was fun when it was only thing out there.
> 
> Now, I LOOOOOOVE my HR20s, and would have to be paid to go back to what I now realize the miserable TiVo in contrast.





Que said:


> How do you even know, when it is NOT EVEN OUT. If your happy with what you have great but, there is a lot of us who are not happy. This gives them one last option with D*.


Que, I could say the same thing to you .. and in truth there is no "option" yet and it hasn't been proven that TiVo will deliver.


----------



## jollyroger0020

Doug Brott said:


> Que, I could say the same thing to you .. and in truth there is no "option" yet and it hasn't been proven that TiVo will deliver.


Tivo will come through only if DirecTV does not try and stop their progress


----------



## Doug Brott

[email protected] said:


> Tivo will come through only if DirecTV does not try and stop their progress


Ha .. I almost wrote that in my post .. Of course it will be DIRECTV's fault if TiVo doesn't get the job done


----------



## jollyroger0020

Doug Brott said:


> Ha .. I almost wrote that in my post .. Of course it will be DIRECTV's fault if TiVo doesn't get the job done


Yes it would be DirecTV's fault because if they ( like they did with the R10 & H10 ) force Tivo to not be allowed to include their full feature set & if they throw smoke and mirror tech things at them to delay the receiver


----------



## Richierich

TIVO and DIRECTV sign a Contract to deliver what DIRECTV wants as specified in the contract. If they want less that what TIVO has in other companies products than so be it because that is what Directv is paying for. If Directv wants all the Bells & Whistles then it will be delivered to them. If Directv limits the amount of Bells & Whistles from TIVO then that is not TIVOs doings as it is Directvs direction.

It is a Contractual Obligation based on what Directv's Platform Requirements and Requests that dictates contractually what TIVO says it can and has to deliver.


----------



## groundrush

So is there any news on how to be a beta tester? I have beta tested plenty of times for stand-alone TiVo's but never for DirecTiVo.


----------



## Tom Robertson

[email protected] said:


> Yes it would be DirecTV's fault because if they ( like they did with the R10 & H10 ) force Tivo to not be allowed to include their full feature set & if they throw smoke and mirror tech things at them to delay the receiver


So were you at the bargaining tables that you _know_ who did what and didn't allow what? (And for what fees?) 

This was not and is not a trivial business relationship. Both parties had/have their business goals to meet. Even tho I have some information I can't share, the best I really could say anyway is the relationship was strained and is now better. I do not know what happened.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

groundrush said:


> So is there any news on how to be a beta tester? I have beta tested plenty of times for stand-alone TiVo's but never for DirecTiVo.


My post above is still the most accurate information we have at this time. A long wait is my best guess, since end of the year is still a long way off.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## t_h

The genesis of this seems pretty straightforward.

Directv contracted with tivo for recording products when tivo was small, and they were willing to take a portion of a $5 a month service fee to get 5 million customers with no sales, marketing or support effort on their behalf.

Years later when tivo got bigger and felt cockier, they wanted more money. Directv said no. Tivo decided they wouldnt extend newer software versions with more features without it, since they were up to charging $13 a month for standalones. I imagine they were salivating at the idea of getting ten bucks a month per directv sub. But directv probably figured their customers wouldnt pay that much, and they'd get subscriber defection to dish or comcast.

Years go by...directv makes its own product and its good enough. Tivo is still waiting for direct internet delivery of content that would let them bypass the directv's and comcasts, and its not here yet. They're bleeding money. Maybe directv sort of wants a tivo product back in their portfolio. So tivo will knock it out and charge extra. If its too much extra, nobody will buy it. If thats the case, not much exposure for directv.

Tivo needs to do something. Either offer content direct from the provider via the internet, bypassing the cable/sat intermediaries...or join back up with them if thats not going to happen in a timely manner.

I can tell you for certain that being the living room hub fed directly by internet based content was tivos intention all along. It just took a lot longer than they thought.


----------



## jollyroger0020

t_h said:


> The genesis of this seems pretty straightforward.
> 
> Directv contracted with tivo for recording products when tivo was small, and they were willing to take a portion of a $5 a month service fee to get 5 million customers with no sales, marketing or support effort on their behalf.
> 
> Years later when tivo got bigger and felt cockier, they wanted more money. Directv said no. Tivo decided they wouldnt extend newer software versions with more features without it, since they were up to charging $13 a month for standalones. I imagine they were salivating at the idea of getting ten bucks a month per directv sub. But directv probably figured their customers wouldnt pay that much, and they'd get subscriber defection to dish or comcast.
> 
> Years go by...directv makes its own product and its good enough. Tivo is still waiting for direct internet delivery of content that would let them bypass the directv's and comcasts, and its not here yet. They're bleeding money. Maybe directv sort of wants a tivo product back in their portfolio. So tivo will knock it out and charge extra. If its too much extra, nobody will buy it. If thats the case, not much exposure for directv.
> 
> Tivo needs to do something. Either offer content direct from the provider via the internet, bypassing the cable/sat intermediaries...or join back up with them if thats not going to happen in a timely manner.
> 
> I can tell you for certain that being the living room hub fed directly by internet based content was tivos intention all along. It just took a lot longer than they thought.


that statement is wrong on so many levels it would take a book to list it all


----------



## Jhon69

bonscott87 said:


> Very true. The only problem is that other then the fanboys, the general public isn't going to pay extra for "Tivo". Especially when they already think they have a Tivo.


I would not believe the general public is that naive.They would definately see the difference when they try to "swap tuners".


----------



## loudo

Jhon69 said:


> I would not believe the general public is that naive.They would definately see the difference when they try to "swap tuners".


Most users don't have a clue of how many tuners they have, or what other features are available from other receivers, as long as the ones in their unit work. Many of us here know a lot about them, but the majority of the general public only cares that their unit records what they ask it to, and plays it back when asked to. To most people the words DVR and TIVO are the same thing.

As a matter of fact, I have heard sales people, selling HR2X units, refer to them as DirecTV TIVO units, when talking to customers about them.


----------



## GregLee

loudo said:


> As a matter of fact, I have heard sales people, selling HR2X units, refer to them as DirecTV TIVO units, when talking to customers about them.


So? "TiVo" is a verb meaning "to record (as a television program) with a DVR"[*], so a DirecTV TiVo would be a device made by DirecTV for TiVoing. It's just English.

[*] See http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/TiVo.


----------



## t_h

[email protected] said:


> that statement is wrong on so many levels it would take a book to list it all


I always take JollyRogers very seriously.
:sure:


----------



## Tom Robertson

There exists a fairly large number of DLB users who would likely consider TiVo for that reason--if that difference actually occurs. But I'm not sure how many people would "pay" a TiVo uplift for that reason.

If the uplift is per household, that would be one thing. But if it is per receiver and more than $2 or $3, I might just get another HR2x and have PIP, DLB, more tuners, and more storage. 

It will be interesting to watch. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

GregLee said:


> So? "TiVo" is a verb meaning "to record (as a television program) with a DVR"[*], so a DirecTV TiVo would be a device made by DirecTV for TiVoing. It's just English.
> 
> [*] See http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/TiVo.


I suspect TiVo is working to maintain their name, lest they lose it like thermos did. This will be another interesting thing to watch over the years. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jhon69

loudo said:


> Most users don't have a clue of how many tuners they have, or what other features are available from other receivers, as long as the ones in their unit work. Many of us here know a lot about them, but the majority of the general public only cares that their unit records what they ask it to, and plays it back when asked to. To most people the words DVR and TIVO are the same thing.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I have heard sales people, selling HR2X units, refer to them as DirecTV TIVO units, when talking to customers about them.


I base my answers on my two technically challenged friends and both of them asked me when we were discussing DirecTV's HDDVR+ HR2xs(they both have DirecTivos) the swapping tuners issue without me telling them.

What is the argument here anyways?.DirecTV is bringing back the DirecTivo.Some may not like it,But at least DirecTV had the sense to be more constructive with Tivo than Dish.

You may not like Tivo but it always surprises me when HD subscriber's request a DirecTivo feature.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

I would certainly pay a few bucks more for TiVo if that means DLB and the TiVo interface. DLB is one of the main reasons I have not upgraded mine. I know the workaround but that doesn't fit for me. Now if my tuner 2 is really going dead, I'll have no choice.


----------



## Jhon69

Tom Robertson said:


> There exists a fairly large number of DLB users who would likely consider TiVo for that reason--if that difference actually occurs. But I'm not sure how many people would "pay" a TiVo uplift for that reason.
> 
> If the uplift is per household, that would be one thing. But if it is per receiver and more than $2 or $3, I might just get another HR2x and have PIP, DLB, more tuners, and more storage.
> 
> It will be interesting to watch.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Now why would you suggest such a thing(per DVR)?.I know if we would see that we would probably see it with the other DVRs only cheaper.Which in a way would not surprise me as John Malone seems to have a Charlie attitude.

Can you use a DVR with the record feature disabled?.That's what I'm looking at if D* ever goes with that(per DVR) or back to a standard receiver.


----------



## wingrider01

[email protected] said:


> Tivo will come through only if DirecTV does not try and stop their progress


like comcast?


----------



## jacmyoung

Jhon69 said:


> ...What is the argument here anyways?.DirecTV is bringing back the DirecTivo...


I think the argument has been: will they really?


----------



## loudo

Jhon69 said:


> You may not like Tivo but it always surprises me when HD subscriber's request a DirecTivo feature.


I really won't make my decision, as to like or dislike, until I see the unit, if it ever becomes a reality. I will have to weigh the features and cost to see if it is worth it. Trying to compare a talked about new unit, to the old HR10-250 is not very practical as I am sure there will be many improvements and features over the older design of the HR10-250.

For right now, other than the lack of a DLB, I am happy with my HR20 units.


----------



## Curtis0620

jacmyoung said:


> I think the argument has been: will they really?


After they finished raking DISH over the coals, the answer will obviously be yes.


----------



## ATARI

Tallgntlmn said:


> I would certainly pay a few bucks more for TiVo if that means DLB and the TiVo interface. DLB is one of the main reasons I have not upgraded mine. I know the workaround but that doesn't fit for me. Now if my tuner 2 is really going dead, I'll have no choice.


I would really like to upgrade my H20 to a recording unit, but with D*Tivos less than a year away (hopefully), I think I'll wait instead of buying an HR2x.


----------



## Doug Brott

Curtis0620 said:


> After they finished raking DISH over the coals, the answer will obviously be yes.


Actually .. It's not that obvious. As others have pointed out the March TiVo earnings call will be the next big indicator. So far indications are that things will be delayed with the possibility of it not happening entering the picture.

Certainly the last announcement is that there will be a new TiVo by EOY .. well, technically the 2nd half of 2009, but let's be honest .. how many companies make the front end of a range that wide?

I've stated all along that we won't see it before end of Q1 2010 .. I still believe that, but .. after CES and Tom Rogers' comments in early January .. a hint of "is it really going to happen?" is now in the picture.

Bottom line .. there's no way that it's "obvious" TiVo will make this a reality.


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> I would really like to upgrade my H20 to a recording unit, but with D*Tivos less than a year away (hopefully), I think I'll wait instead of buying an HR2x.


There may come a point where you will consider an H21 or H23


----------



## Eric5676

Tom Robertson said:


> There exists a fairly large number of DLB users who would likely consider TiVo for that reason--if that difference actually occurs. But I'm not sure how many people would "pay" a TiVo uplift for that reason.
> 
> If the uplift is per household, that would be one thing. But if it is per receiver and more than $2 or $3, I might just get another HR2x and have PIP, DLB, more tuners, and more storage.
> 
> It will be interesting to watch.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Quick, dumb question: The HD DVR machines have two tuners correct? If so, do they allow for any kind of PIP or split screen use at all? Is there any way to do that with DirecTV? I wouldn't mind having that kind of feature although it's not a deal maker or breaker either way.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Welcome to the forums, Eric5676! :welcome_s

The short answer is no, the DIRECTV HD DVRs do not do PIP.

The longer answer is that Dish can with a very similar chipset, so perhaps it might someday be available, but we've heard no whispers of such. Don't plan on it might be the safest answer. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Doug Brott said:


> There may come a point where you will consider an H21 or H23


That point has come for me for two reasons. My second tuner appears to have issues on my D-TiVo and the picture on Comcast is hard to watch due to what I see as macroblocking. I could never watch that picture long term. No DLB will be tough but not worrying about which tuner the recording is happening on will be a relief.


----------



## Eric5676

Tom Robertson said:


> Welcome to the forums, Eric5676! :welcome_s


Thanks. 

I've lurked for a LONG time and I really appreciate you guys.



> The short answer is no, the DIRECTV HD DVRs do not do PIP.


D'oh!



> The longer answer is that Dish can with a very similar chipset, so perhaps it might someday be available, but we've heard no whispers of such. Don't plan on it might be the safest answer.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I suspected as much.


----------



## jacmyoung

Curtis0620 said:


> After they finished raking DISH over the coals, the answer will obviously be yes.


Are you saying if TiVo fails to "rake" DISH the new DirecTiVo will not happen? Even I would not say that for sure


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Welcome to the forums, Eric5676! :welcome_s
> 
> The short answer is no, the DIRECTV HD DVRs do not do PIP.
> 
> The longer answer is that Dish can with a very similar chipset, so perhaps it might someday be available, but we've heard no whispers of such. Don't plan on it might be the safest answer.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Actually DISH VIP622, 722 and the upcoming 922 HD DVRs do PIP and split screens just fine.


----------



## ddobson

Tom Robertson said:


> There exists a fairly large number of DLB users who would likely consider TiVo for that reason--if that difference actually occurs. But I'm not sure how many people would "pay" a TiVo uplift for that reason.
> 
> If the uplift is per household, that would be one thing. But if it is per receiver and more than $2 or $3, I might just get another HR2x and have PIP, DLB, more tuners, and more storage.
> 
> It will be interesting to watch.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I agree with this so much Tom. After having 4 D-Tivo's for 2 years and then in the spring of 08, moving, going to HD and swapping all old units for the DirecTV units, I would have gladly paid an extra $10 a month for TIVO. But the D units have come a long way in a year and I have gotten used to them. They're only a couple of features away from at least making me satisfied.

I am interested to see what the new D-Tivo brings but not at too much of a cost unless there are a LOT of new features!


----------



## bbanks69

davring said:


> Will the TIVO fanatics be able to wait an entire year? I can see polls, wish lists and people already lining up to buy. This will be fun to watch


I am waiting in line now, I can't wait, i hate the D*tv DVR's


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> I suspect TiVo is working to maintain their name, lest they lose it like thermos did. This will be another interesting thing to watch over the years.


This presumes that TiVo can make a go of changing to a lawsuit based revenue stream. Thus far, the money comes in fits and spurts.


----------



## harsh

jacmyoung said:


> Are you saying if TiVo fails to "rake" DISH the new DirecTiVo will not happen?


DISH has a veritable bottomless war chest and Charlie lives for this kind of thing.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

harsh said:


> This presumes that TiVo can make a go of changing to a lawsuit based revenue stream. Thus far, the money comes in fits and spurts.


Ummmm....yeah.....


----------



## DarinC

Tom Robertson said:


> There exists a fairly large number of DLB users who would likely consider TiVo for that reason--if that difference actually occurs. But I'm not sure how many people would "pay" a TiVo uplift for that reason.


There are a lot of features that would make me willing to pay a small premium for a TiVo... DLB, suggestions, more pro-active conflict notification, and most importantly: a history of greater reliability in *my* experience compared to what I've experienced so far with my HR21s. But the silence on the product is odd... if I were TiVo, I would consider this a critical project. This market is constantly evolving, they don't really have the luxury of time.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> Actually DISH VIP622, 722 and the upcoming 922 HD DVRs do PIP and split screens just fine.


Yep and it remains to be seen if Tivo plans to go after those DVRs next because if the workaround is ruled invalid they will be next you can count on that.


----------



## Jhon69

harsh said:


> DISH has a veritable bottomless war chest and Charlie lives for this kind of thing.


I use to have a dog like that.Had alot more spine than sense.

Thank God DirecTV isn't like that!.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> This presumes that TiVo can make a go of changing to a lawsuit based revenue stream. Thus far, the money comes in fits and spurts.


Actually maintaining your name is far less expensive and more fruitful by using careful advertising.

First are ads in the writer's and copywriter's magazines reminding people the correct terminology.

Second are to build the brand with general populous marketing campaigns.

The big trick that TiVo needs to answer is "What is recording on a DVR going to be known as?" If they build that campaign, they can build their own brand and protect it too.

Only rarely would you need to get litigious for the most extreme cases. Simple lawyer letters go a long way.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> DISH has a veritable bottomless war chest and Charlie lives for this kind of thing.


I suspect in today's economy...Charlie is seeing the bottom clearly these days. 

With a shrinking customer base....he may be able to weather the storm...or may not.

In any case....the Tivobox is in the same boat...it may surface in the next 9-12 months...or it may be delayed....or who knows....

Most conventional business theories and historical practices are not in play these days...ask any COO or CFO. That would mean a 50/50 odds chart on the new Tivobox seeing the light of day in production is probably the most realistic.


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect in today's economy...Charlie is seeing the bottom clearly these days. ...


He just "raked in" about $200M from the Sirius deal from Malone


----------



## Jhon69

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect in today's economy...Charlie is seeing the bottom clearly these days.
> 
> With a shrinking customer base....he may be able to weather the storm...or may not.
> 
> In any case....the Tivobox is in the same boat...it may surface in the next 9-12 months...or it may be delayed....or who knows....
> 
> Most conventional business theories and historical practices are not in play these days...ask any COO or CFO. That would mean a 50/50 odds chart on the new Tivobox seeing the light of day in production is probably the most realistic.


Think it all depends if Charlie has to sign over that $200 million check he got from John Malone to Tom Rogers.

In a perfect situation we should see a new HD DirecTivo,in a bad economy maybe just put the DirecTivo software in certain HDDVR+ models(just a guess).


----------



## Mark L

Is there a prototype picture of any sorts?

I searched, but couldn't find anything.


----------



## joshjr

logan2575 said:


> Is there a prototype picture of any sorts?
> 
> I searched, but couldn't find anything.


I called Tivo last week I think and the lady said that they were just starting to build it and they did not know any peticulars yet such as I asked if it was going to have duel live buffers, how many tuners it would have, etc. Now Im not saying I take a CS rep at her word but she obviously had not heard any updates on it. Hard to believe this thread was started 5 months ago and there is not really any more updates on it which is why I called Tivo myself but thats the way it goes I guess. Time will tell.

In my opinion if they are smart then they will make it with duel live buffers, ablility to record HD content and the ability to record at least 3 shows at one with a very decent size hard drive. If they do that then the sales in my opinion would go through the roof. Why wouldnt everyone want one?


----------



## jacmyoung

joshjr said:


> ...Why wouldnt everyone want one?


Because if they charge $599 upfront and $10/mo. there after?


----------



## joshjr

jacmyoung said:


> Because if they charge $599 upfront and $10/mo. there after?


If its a superior product then people would still flock to it. My thing is that I am currently under contract for 17 more months I think. That being said it should be around the time the new deal is struck with Sunday Ticket. Without knowing what will happen for sure I can not jump on the Tivo bandwagon and get one that extends my contract for 2 years so I am very interested to see what it will offer but also probably gonna wait to see if I have to jump ship from D* if for some reason NFL Sunday Ticket is offered elsewhere.


----------



## harsh

logan2575 said:


> Is there a prototype picture of any sorts?


We don't know for certain that it will represent a new device at all. It may just be a replacement software load for an existing hardware piece. There has been some mention of having the TiVo logo on the equipment but that might be handled with a sticker.

In this instance, hardware mock-ups aren't very telling.


----------



## spartanstew

jacmyoung said:


> Actually DISH VIP622, 722 and the upcoming 922 HD DVRs do PIP and split screens just fine.


Actually, that's what Tom said.


----------



## andunn27

harsh said:


> We don't know for certain that it will represent a new device at all. It may just be a replacement software load for an existing hardware piece. There has been some mention of having the TiVo logo on the equipment but that might be handled with a sticker.
> 
> In this instance, hardware mock-ups aren't very telling.


If it was a software update say on an existing Directv box do you think they would also send a Tivo remote or program the software to use with Directv's remote?


----------



## bonscott87

> Originally Posted by jacmyoung View Post
> Because if they charge $599 upfront and $10/mo. there after?





joshjr said:


> If its a superior product then people would still flock to it.


Well, that would be a totally wrong statement. Some people would flock and only the most devout Tivo devotees with money would do so. Time and time again it's been pointed out that the general public, those not on these forums, are just fine with the crappy cable or telco DVR they have and it's free. They are also even more impressed with the Dish or DirecTV DVRs which are nearly free and actually cheaper once you factor in lower monthly bills. Meanwhile stand alone Tivo subs continue to drop. People outside the few on these forums are not going to pay a large premium for the Tivo product. History tells us this. Why would it be any different now? But then this was covered a few dozen pages ago in this thread.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> Because if they charge $599 upfront and $10/mo. there after?


I seriously doubt the hardware will be any more expensive than a DirecTV box.

Their October earnings press release stated: "[...] With the new deal, DIRECTV will begin marketing a version of the TiVo service that is built on DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. [...]"

So the new DirecTiVo software will run on a box that also runs the current HD DVR software. Whether that's an existing HR20/21/22/23 or an "HR2-come" remains to be seen. /steve


----------



## joshjr

bonscott87 said:


> Well, that would be a totally wrong statement. Some people would flock and only the most devout Tivo devotees with money would do so. Time and time again it's been pointed out that the general public, those not on these forums, are just fine with the crappy cable or telco DVR they have and it's free. They are also even more impressed with the Dish or DirecTV DVRs which are nearly free and actually cheaper once you factor in lower monthly bills. Meanwhile stand alone Tivo subs continue to drop. People outside the few on these forums are not going to pay a large premium for the Tivo product. History tells us this. Why would it be any different now? But then this was covered a few dozen pages ago in this thread.


Im not really saying I dont agree with that. Im just betting that if people really knew the differences and knew that it was a superior product that alot of people would be willing to buy. Whats really kills it now is the lease and contract. With the economy bad people are less app to pay top dollar for a DVR. Its the future though so its gonna happen eventually. I guess I see your point though as far as making a superior product for now. That being said didnt I just read not to long ago about a new Dish DVR that records 4 things at once? Obviously there is still a market to create better DVR's for even if that means paying more for the hardware.


----------



## Doug Brott

andunn27 said:


> If it was a software update say on an existing Directv box do you think they would also send a Tivo remote or program the software to use with Directv's remote?


I believe that it will be very unlikely that any existing DIRECTV box will be field upgradable. That being said, I see no reason why it couldn't be the same box .. just that the actual load would need to be in-house to insure that the receiver was not bricked in the process.


----------



## Max Mike

joshjr said:


> If its a superior product then people would still flock to it.


If by flock you mean a handful then yes.

Not at $600. A $600 DVR would not only have to be a superior but have a massively improved feature set to justify that price over the $200 HR-2X even for techies who have to have the latest. Have we learned nothing from Blu-Ray.

$600 is a price guaranteed to produce a failure.


----------



## Jhon69

Max Mike said:


> If by flock you mean a handful then yes.
> 
> Not at $600. A $600 DVR would not only have to be a superior but have a massively improved feature set to justify that price over the $200 HR-2X even for techies who have to have the latest. Have we learned nothing from Blu-Ray.
> 
> $600 is a price guaranteed to produce a failure.


Well that price is what the Tivo XL is now.It has a 1TB HDD.

I would believe that DirecTV will have Tivo manufacture a HDDVR with a smaller HDD to keep the prices lower say $299. that's what the regular Tivo HDDVR is now.Those that want more recording capacity can get an external HDD addition.


----------



## Steve

joshjr said:


> [...] Obviously there is still a market to create better DVR's for even if that means paying more for the hardware.





Max Mike said:


> [...] A $600 DVR would not only have to be a superior but have a massively improved feature set to justify that price over the $200 HR-2X even for techies who have to have the latest. Have we learned nothing from Blu-Ray.[...]





Jhon69 said:


> [...] I would believe that DirecTV will have Tivo manufacture a HDDVR with a smaller HDD to keep the prices lower say $299.[...]


Like it says above, the DirecTiVo software will run on the same box as an existing DirecTV broadband-enabled HD DVR, so the hardware cost should be the same. The only question in my mind is what the monthly TiVo service upcharge will be. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> Like it says above, the DirecTiVo software will run on the same box as an existing DirecTV broadband-enabled HD DVR, so the hardware cost should be the same. The only question in my mind is what the monthly TiVo service upcharge will be. /steve


My thoughts exactly and that upcharge could range from zero to up to $10/receiver .. most likely it's somewhere in between, just guessing I'd say either $5 additional per account (TiVo fee on top of DVR fee) .. BUT .. it's possible it could be $5/receiver. All really depends on how much TiVo wants in their coffers.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> .. most likely it's somewhere in between, just guessing I'd say either $5 additional per account (TiVo fee on top of DVR fee) .. BUT .. it's possible it could be $5/receiver.


I agree. I'm thinking a $4.95-$9.95 per month "TiVo" account-based service charge would not be unreasonable. Hopefully closer to $4.95.  /steve


----------



## bbanks69

I am ready to change my two SD DVR's for two HD DVR's. my question to this group is if I payed the $400.00 to change to HD now, and then the tivos came out,would I have to return the two HD DVR's, and Purchase the new boxes as well, in other words I would be paying twice.

I am trying to see if it would be better for me to suffer through with what i have until tivo is released>

And with the 18" round dish, will I need to have my dish changed out to go to HD?

Help Please, Thanks


----------



## NickIndy

loudo said:


> As a matter of fact, I have heard sales people, selling HR2X units, refer to them as DirecTV TIVO units, when talking to customers about them.


I think TiVo should explore this revenue stream. Just like Coke has done in the past to restaurants that served Pepsi when the customer asked for Coke. They should be going out and getting money out of Best Buy and other stores that try to sell other DVRs by calling them TiVo. I'm thinking this copyright infringement is fairly wide spread.


----------



## NickIndy

Doug Brott said:


> Bottom line .. there's no way that it's "obvious" TiVo will make this a reality.


My 2 year commitment is over 2/2010. If it's not out by then or coming out soon I'm going to dust off the S3 TiVo and go back to cable with the tuning adapter. My local cable company is quickly gaining on D* HD channels, especially the ones I actually watch.


----------



## bonscott87

joshjr said:


> Im not really saying I dont agree with that. Im just betting that if people really knew the differences and knew that it was a superior product that alot of people would be willing to buy. Whats really kills it now is the lease and contract. With the economy bad people are less app to pay top dollar for a DVR. Its the future though so its gonna happen eventually. I guess I see your point though as far as making a superior product for now. That being said didnt I just read not to long ago about a new Dish DVR that records 4 things at once? Obviously there is still a market to create better DVR's for even if that means paying more for the hardware.


So what has been Tivo's problem all these good years until recently? 

Seriously, Tivo's market share has been dropping like a rock for years, being better isn't really in most people's equation. People are just looking to replace their VCR and frankly any old crappy cable DVR can do that.

And the marketplace over the years is riddled what "superior" products that have failed. Beta was better then VHS but VHS won out because of lower price.

Look, I'm not saying that DirecTV shouldn't have a Tivo option, I mean, what do I care, choices are always good. But to think that Tivo is now going to take the world by storm with this product, even after the recession is over is frankly really stretching it. The masses just aren't going to pay extra and frankly, you think DirecTV is going to allow marketing that says the new DirecTivo is so worth the upcharge and thus it suggests their own DVRs are crap? I highly doubt that will happen unless DirecTV goes "all in" with Tivo and dumps their own line.


----------



## Doug Brott

bbanks69 said:


> I am ready to change my two SD DVR's for two HD DVR's. my question to this group is if I payed the $400.00 to change to HD now, and then the tivos came out,would I have to return the two HD DVR's, and Purchase the new boxes as well, in other words I would be paying twice.
> 
> I am trying to see if it would be better for me to suffer through with what i have until tivo is released>
> 
> And with the 18" round dish, will I need to have my dish changed out to go to HD?
> 
> Help Please, Thanks


Who knows .. you might be able to work something out or you might not be able to work something out .. My guess is that it will be tough, but it's just a guess.

As for suffering through? Nobody knows when or if the TiVo will be available .. I'm not even sure that TiVo knows at this point .. The press release announcing this new TiVo stated second half of 2009 .. but the most recent news has been "no comment." You can take that for what it's worth.


----------



## t_h

I suspect tivo has been quiet about it for this very reason. Directv doesnt want their customers standing around waiting another year or so for the tivo. It wants them to make a decision right now with the products currently available.


----------



## Tom Robertson

t_h said:


> I suspect tivo has been quiet about it for this very reason. Directv doesnt want their customers standing around waiting another year or so for the tivo. It wants them to make a decision right now with the products currently available.


Quiet is one thing. Silent at investors conferences is quite another.

Then again, the analysts ain't asking either...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Steve

Tom Robertson said:


> Quiet is one thing. Silent at investors conferences is quite another.


DirecTV was silent, but TiVo brought it up at their last conference on 11/26. 

Come to think of it, there should be another TiVo analyst briefing right about now, no? For the quarter ending January 31? /steve


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> DirecTV was silent, but TiVo brought it up at their last conference on 11/26.
> 
> Come to think of it, there should be another TiVo analyst briefing right about now, no? For the quarter ending Jamuary 31? /steve


March 2nd, 2pm I believe is the time. I plan to listen in for any tidbits.


----------



## Doug Brott

Apparently .. The next earnings announcement from TIVO is expected the week of March 2, 2009.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> March 2nd, 2pm I believe is the time. I plan to listen in for any tidbits.





Doug Brott said:


> Apparently .. The next earnings announcement from TIVO is expected the week of March 2, 2009.


Excellent news. I'd be shocked if they weren't asked for a DirecTV progress report, especially since they made a point of talking about it at the last update. /steve


----------



## Max Mike

Jhon69 said:


> Well that price is what the Tivo XL is now.It has a 1TB HDD.
> 
> I would believe that DirecTV will have Tivo manufacture a HDDVR with a smaller HDD to keep the prices lower say $299. that's what the regular Tivo HDDVR is now.Those that want more recording capacity can get an external HDD addition.


Yea that is the price of the Tivo XL and $299 for the regular Tivo HDDVR... AND Tivo has lost 20% of its subscriber base in the last two years.


----------



## CJTE

Steve said:


> Like it says
> 
> 
> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt the hardware will be any more expensive than a DirecTV box.
> 
> Their October earnings press release stated: "[...] With the new deal, DIRECTV will begin marketing a version of the TiVo service that is built on DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. [...]"
> 
> So the new DirecTiVo software will run on a box that also runs the current HD DVR software. Whether that's an existing HR20/21/22/23 or an "HR2-come" remains to be seen. /steve
> 
> 
> 
> , the DirecTiVo software will run on the same box as an existing DirecTV broadband-enabled HD DVR, so the hardware cost should be the same.
Click to expand...

Im going to troll in real quick 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1791038#post1791038


----------



## Ken_F

Tom Robertson said:


> The longer answer is that Dish can with a very similar chipset, so perhaps it might someday be available, but we've heard no whispers of such. Don't plan on it might be the safest answer.


The DirecTV HR21/HR22/HR23 all use the same Broadcom SoC as the Dish Network ViP612. It's not capable of PIP because it only has one decoder.

The only DirecTV design directly comparable to the Dish ViP622/ViP722 was the HR20, which was discontinued long ago.



Max Mike said:


> Yea that is the price of the Tivo XL and $299 for the regular Tivo HDDVR... AND Tivo has lost 20% of its subscriber base in the last two years.


 The TivoHD sells for $250 online, and is currently available from Sears for $199. It is based on the same Broadcom CPU as the HR21/HR22/HR23, but has a smaller hard drive (160GB), 2x AMD ATSC/QAM demodulators, 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs, and a VIXS XCode 2115 IC with a CableCard interface and 2x NTSC encoders. Strip out all the CableCard and analog junk and the core platform isn't that different from the HR2x.


----------



## Steve

CJTE said:


> Im going to troll in real quick
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1791038#post1791038


I think the gist of your September post referenced above can be summed up in this sentence from it: _"My *Point* is that I strongly doubt you'll see Tivo software running on an HR20."_

You could very well be right. It could be an HR99 for all we know, but based on this statement by TiVo on November 26: _"[...] With the new deal, DIRECTV will begin marketing a version of the TiVo service that is built on DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. [...]"_, it sounds to me like whichever box it turns out to be, it will be one capable of running either the DirecTV or TiVo application. Just my .02, though. Others may interpret it differently.

Maybe some more details will come to light next week in the TiVo conference call.

/steve


----------



## Steve

Ken_F said:


> The TivoHD sells for $250 online, and is currently available from Sears for $199. It is based on the same Broadcom CPU as the HR21/HR22/HR23, but has a smaller hard drive (160GB), 2x AMD ATSC/QAM demodulators, 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs, and a VIXS XCode 2115 IC with a CableCard interface and 2x NTSC encoders. Strip out all the CableCard and analog junk and the core platform isn't that different from the HR2x.


Sounds like the TiVoHD is the equivalent of an HR21, but with the HR20's built-in OTA. Even more support for the idea that the new DirecTiVo application can be written for the HR2x hardware. /steve


----------



## t_h

Tom Robertson said:


> Quiet is one thing. Silent at investors conferences is quite another.


Eh, tivo had to announce so they can keep investors lined up. They're talking about it to the investor folks. Directv is keeping quiet. Nothing in it for them until they've got a product to sell. Maybe having it on the horizon freezes some current directv customers from going elsewhere to get their tivo fix. Otherwise they'd just as soon get you from cable or dish to directv on an HR, or upgrade you from an old SD receiver to an HR. Now.


----------



## harsh

andunn27 said:


> If it was a software update say on an existing Directv box do you think they would also send a Tivo remote or program the software to use with Directv's remote?


What type of remote they use is of very little consequence at this point in time. I personally like the idea of the more flexible DIRECTV remote when applied to a full-on home theater setup. Built-in RF doesn't hurt for those times when you don't want to get out from under the blanket.


----------



## CJTE

Steve said:


> I think the gist of your September post referenced above can be summed up in this sentence from it: _"My *Point* is that I strongly doubt you'll see Tivo software running on an HR20."_
> 
> You could very well be right. It could be an HR99 for all we know, but based on this statement by TiVo on November 26: _"[...] With the new deal, DIRECTV will begin marketing a version of the TiVo service that is built on DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. [...]"_, it sounds to me like whichever box it turns out to be, it will be one capable of running either the DirecTV or TiVo application. Just my .02, though. Others may interpret it differently.
> 
> Maybe some more details will come to light next week in the TiVo conference call.
> 
> /steve


Thats why I made sure to mention that I was trolling 
See. I understand your view-point, based on what Tivo said. Unfortunately, I can stretch that (though I doubt it) to fit my statement too.
Platform could be DirecTVs physical hardware, or it could be the specs/features. What you're saying (and if I wasnt being a jerk what I'd be going along with) is that it is DirecTVs hardware. What I can stretch that out to say is that its going to be a box with the same feature sets (Active page, DirecTV2PC, and who knows what else).

This is something I would like to drop and agree to disagree. I see your viewpoint entirely, and you may/may not see mine, but until we get more information bickering (and im not accusing you of bickering) isn't gonna do anything. Thanks for acknowledging my troll


----------



## Jhon69

andunn27 said:


> If it was a software update say on an existing Directv box do you think they would also send a Tivo remote or program the software to use with Directv's remote?


My RC64RB DirecTV remote control works with my HR10-250(HD DirecTivo).

It's not the remote that so much matters,it's getting the correct code from the Remote Master-Edmund.:sure:


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> ...Maybe some more details will come to light next week in the TiVo conference call.
> 
> /steve


At this point, I would check out D*'s future conference calls, rather TiVo's calls, for possible answer.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> At this point, I would check out D*'s future conference calls, rather TiVo's calls, for possible answer.


We've done that that past two earnings calls and other press conferences .. so far nothing .. why should we expect next time to be different? :shrug:

TiVo's earnings call next week is probably the next real shot at any news .. If you're looking for the new DIRECTiVo to become a real product you better hope that it's mentioned during this call. If TiVo goes "no comment" again .. well, that will not be good.


----------



## Jhon69

joshjr said:


> I called Tivo last week I think and the lady said that they were just starting to build it and they did not know any peticulars yet such as I asked if it was going to have duel live buffers, how many tuners it would have, etc. Now Im not saying I take a CS rep at her word but she obviously had not heard any updates on it. Hard to believe this thread was started 5 months ago and there is not really any more updates on it which is why I called Tivo myself but thats the way it goes I guess. Time will tell.
> 
> In my opinion if they are smart then they will make it with duel live buffers, ablility to record HD content and the ability to record at least 3 shows at one with a very decent size hard drive. If they do that then the sales in my opinion would go through the roof. Why wouldnt everyone want one?


Decided to bring this post forward in case some readers missed it.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jhon69 said:


> Decided to bring this post forward in case some readers missed it.


Why? The TiVo CSR probably gets information the same way we do.

The fact that it's "no comment" in-house as well doesn't make this project any more likely.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> At this point, I would check out D*'s future conference calls, rather TiVo's calls, for possible answer.





Doug Brott said:


> We've done that that past two earnings calls and other press conferences .. so far nothing .. why should we expect next time to be different? :shrug:


Agree with Doug. I think *t_h's *comment below is "right on the money" as to why DirecTV is keeping silent on the issue, and why TiVo needs to talk about it next week. If they don't, as Doug says, their silence will speak volumes. /steve



t_h said:


> Eh, tivo had to announce so they can keep investors lined up. They're talking about it to the investor folks. Directv is keeping quiet. Nothing in it for them until they've got a product to sell. Maybe having it on the horizon freezes some current directv customers from going elsewhere to get their tivo fix. Otherwise they'd just as soon get you from cable or dish to directv on an HR, or upgrade you from an old SD receiver to an HR. Now.


----------



## Shades228

Tivo is becoming more of a niche product as time goes on. Most people can live without it but would like some of the features they currently have. It's not overly surprising that D* doesn't really talk about it because I really don't think they feel it's going to be something that will draw a huge amount of subscribers just because of it.

Tivo will talk more about it because it means a lot more to them then it does D*. It will start adding subs again to Tivo which they have been constantly losing ever since D* started with their own platform. 

With that said if Tivo doesn't plan on launching it until Q4 they probably won't talk much about it if at all until their Q3 call so they don't seem like they're putting all their eggs in this basket.


----------



## bonscott87

Shades228 said:


> With that said if Tivo doesn't plan on launching it until Q4 they probably won't talk much about it if at all until their Q3 call so they don't seem like they're putting all their eggs in this basket.


Well, that didn't stop them from talking it up a lot at their last 2 quarterly calls. 

Then the silence suddenly happened with "no comment" and a no show at CES. If it's coming yet this year you can bet they will talk about it on Monday, especially if their stand alone sub numbers dropped yet again and Comcast uptake continues to disappoint. They have to give the stock holders some hope and not bail.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect not much more will be said until they are perhaps within a 90-day window to launch.....


----------



## Jhon69

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect not much more will be said until they are perhaps within a 90-day window to launch.....


Or if we can get Doug to drive over there and peek in their window?.


----------



## bonscott87

Here I was all ready to listen to the webcast of the call and it's 2pm "pacific" time, not eastern. Uggggggg.


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> Here I was all ready to listen to the webcast of the call and it's 2pm "pacific" time, not eastern. Uggggggg.


yep, T minus 3.

We should know today what the deal is, either way.


----------



## bbanks69

I assume u all talking about Tivos podcat, how can i listen to this


----------



## Steve

bbanks69 said:


> I assume u all talking about Tivos podcat, how can i listen to this


I think you can hear it by registering here. /steve


----------



## Sixto

3/2/2009: "Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR will include popular TiVo broadband features, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base on day-one of the launch. We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers. Now, as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition programming, they will have the option to choose the TiVo experience to help them truly get the most out of their high definition viewing experience."

http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=368436


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> 3/2/2009: "Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR will include popular TiVo broadband features, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base on day-one of the launch. We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers. Now, as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition programming, they will have the option to choose the TiVo experience to help them truly get the most out of their high definition viewing experience."
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=368436


But no date for launch?


----------



## DarinC

Sixto said:


> Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR will include popular TiVo broadband features, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base on day-one of the launch.


Interesting couple of sentences. Although you can't read too much into these things, the first one makes it sound like a new box, and the second one makes it sound like software that can be downloaded onto existing hardware.


----------



## MattDing

Good to hear. :biggthump

Thanks for the info, Sixto.


----------



## Sixto

ATARI said:


> But no date for launch?


1. that's the official earnings press release.

2. next is the conference call in a little while.

3. and then they'll be the official SEC filing this week.

little by little ...


----------



## Sixto

DarinC said:


> Interesting couple of sentences. Although you can't read too much into these things, the first one makes it sound like a new box, and the second one makes it sound like software that can be downloaded onto existing hardware.


it may just be a reference to the fact that any DirecTV subscriber will be able to order the new box on day-1 of the launch. time will tell ...


----------



## Steve

DarinC said:


> Interesting couple of sentences. Although you can't read too much into these things, the first one makes it sound like a new box, and the second one makes it sound like software that can be downloaded onto existing hardware.


Given what we know from their November comments, I interpret that statement to mean "new" as a TiVo product offering, but not necessarily new hardware.

/steve


----------



## Steve

What's interesting are the numbers filed with the SEC. In spite of new subs from their Comcast deal, *monthly service revenues have declined 14%* from the same quarter last year. They also sold 34% less hardware and _"TiVo-Owned subscription gross additions for the fourth quarter were approximately 59,000, compared to 109,000 gross additions for the year-ago period."_

I would think getting those lost DirecTV subs back on the balance sheet is job #1 at TiVo. If it wasn't, and I was a TiVo shareholder, I'd be very upset. /steve


----------



## Sixto

3/2/2009 - Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) ... opening comments ... read the exact same words from the press release ... no reference to a date (yet).


----------



## bonscott87

Sixto said:


> 3/2/2009 - Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) ... opening comments ... read the exact same words from the press release ... no reference to a date (yet).


Which means it's obviously delayed I'd think. See if anyone asks for specifics. Prior to this they were talking dates all the time. Now not even the vague "2nd half 09".

I just got on the call and can only listen for another 10 minutes or so but hopefully others are.


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> Which means it's obviously delayed I'd think. See if anyone asks for specifics. Prior to this they were talking dates all the time. Now not even the vague "2nd half 09".
> 
> I just got on the call and can only listen for another 10 minutes or so but hopefully others are.


no problem ... i'll be on for entire call ...


----------



## Sixto

Tom Roger's opening comments (20 mins) complete ... no other reference to DirecTV.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Just mentioned churn for D* users. Sounds like they want to start to stop that. At least that's how I heard it. 

And one could read into the statement "continue to lose D* subscriptions until D* releases our hardware." as being it's going to happen. Who knows. I just wanna know when already.


----------



## Sixto

"continue to see DirecTV churn, and will continue to see DirecTV churn until new box" ... remarks concluded. Q&A starting!


----------



## Sixto

Q: legal costs ...

A: periods of spiking legal $ ... echostar hearings in q1 ... significant costs ... future benefit $ if they win again ...


----------



## Sixto

Q: channel ... direct? retail?

A: not much change online/retail ... online 30% ... circuit city effect ... increase with best buy ... bundle with TV ... HD theme ... happy with comcast ... *focused on DirecTV "later part of the year"*


----------



## Sixto

Q: Cox trials (timing of rollout)? ... Stopwatch details (revenue detail)?

A: Cox rollout 1st half 2009 ... 100,000 TiVo homes in StopWatch (Nielson is only 4,000 homes), TiVo 25x, great strides with research community.


----------



## Sixto

that's it ... no more questions!


----------



## Sixto

only 4 analyst questions. "tough weather day" he said.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

...so it seems "later in 2009" is still alive and well and kicking...or at least it's their story, and they're sticking to it...


----------



## Sixto

In summary ... there were 3 references to DirecTV.

1) during the opening remarks, the CEO read the script that was included in the press release referenced above.

2) during the opening remarks, the CFO referenced the DirecTV churn as continuing until the new DirecTV relationship.

3) during the Q&A, a reference was made by the CEO to DirecTV "later in the year".

That's it.

If someone would have asked about DirecTV, he would have answered.

They specifically asked about the EchoStar litigation and the Cox rollout and he was crisp.

There were only 4 questions.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Thanks, Sixto and others, for the liveblog!


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> 3/2/2009: "Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR will include popular TiVo broadband features, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base on day-one of the launch. We have had a very successful history with DIRECTV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers. Now, as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition programming, they will have the option to choose the TiVo experience to help them truly get the most out of their high definition viewing experience."
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=368436


I missed the whole call due to work .. That being said, from comments here, the bulk of what TiVo said can likely be rolled up in the comments above.

So being available "Day One" indicates to me that the hardware is not an issue .. I still expect this to be loaded onto existing (or future) versions of DIRECTV's HR2x receivers. These comments also seem to suggest that you can get the TiVo upgrade on an existing receiver in your house .. but it does not specifically say that and it also goes on to say "as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition programming, they will have the option to choose the TiVo experience" which is more in line with what I fully expect the case to be .. that the TiVo software will only be loaded in-house .. I do think updates for TiVo will be field loadable just like DIRECTV firmware updates.

Bottom line, it sounds like the product is still in the works so we can safely say that it's not dead yet. However, next year seems the more likely target date since they've pulled back from the "2H 2009" remarks in last September's press release.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...so it seems "later in 2009" is still alive and well and kicking...or at least it's their story, and they're sticking to it...


certainly didn't make a big deal about DirecTV.

very much played up the cable progress and the cable partnerships announced today.

talked alot about the IP litigation progress.

talked highly of the progress with Comcast and the bundling and lowering of the cable fee, and progress in new england and chicago.

answered the cox question.

certainly wasn't ready to make any big directv predictions.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> 3) during the Q&A, a reference was made by the CEO to DirecTV "later in the year".


I'm just reading your comments, so I may have it all wrong .. but it seems that "focused on DIRECTV later in the year" was what TiVo would be doing .. as in putting more Engineering resources on the project at that time .. not that that's when it will be available.

But again .. maybe I'm misinterpreting things here.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

I wish I could say it was a direct quote, but I believe it was said as "we will continue to lose DirecTV subscriptions until DirecTV releases the product."

To me that sounds eerily like what RIM said about the Blackberry Bold and AT&T taking forever to release it. IMHO, it will be delayed and Tivo will blame D* and D* will blame Tivo.


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> I'm just reading your comments, so I may have it all wrong .. but it seems that "focused on DIRECTV later in the year" was what TiVo would be doing .. as in putting more Engineering resources on the project at that time .. not that that's when it will be available.
> 
> But again .. maybe I'm misinterpreting things here.


Rogers was answering a question about the channel. retail vs online. talked about Comcast, Best Buy, Circuit City, and then during the response to the question ...

the exact quote from Tom Rogers:"... and the DirecTV situation obviously is one that we're focused on for the later part of the year ..."​


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> I'm just reading your comments, so I may have it all wrong .. but it seems that "focused on DIRECTV later in the year" was what TiVo would be doing .. as in putting more Engineering resources on the project at that time .. not that that's when it will be available.
> 
> But again .. maybe I'm misinterpreting things here.


That's the way I took it. The transcript will be on seeking alpha within a day or so, we can get the exact wording from that. But from what I heard it sounded just like what you said, focusing on DirecTV later in the year meaning getting going on the product then, not a release date.

Being that at the last couple calls they've been specific on timeline and now since the beginning of the year it's gotten pretty gray. Being this is an analyst call to me that means that it's delayed from initial estimates and won't have an impact on financials this year. But like you said, "it's not dead yet Jim".


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> That's the way I took it. The transcript will be on seeking alpha within a day or so, we can get the exact wording from that. But from what I heard it sounded just like what you said, focusing on DirecTV later in the year meaning getting going on the product then, not a release date.
> 
> Being that at the last couple calls they've been specific on timeline and now since the beginning of the year it's gotten pretty gray. Being this is an analyst call to me that means that it's delayed from initial estimates and won't have an impact on financials this year. But like you said, "it's not dead yet Jim".


i really took it more as when the DirecTV rollout will occur because he had just finished talking about the Comcast rollout ... i took it more as the impact of DirecTV will not hit until later in the year ...

again, the exact quote was "... and the DirecTV situation obviously is one that we're focused on for the later part of the year ..."

with the context being that he was talking about rollouts and progress within the different channels, but it's tough to be exactly sure.

All we needed was one simple question: when will the DirecTV box be available for shipment. very simple. ah well ...


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> again, the exact quote was "... and the DirecTV situation obviously is one that we're focused on for the later part of the year ..."


This could possible be a reaffirmation of "2H 2009" .. I'll still stick with my original estimate of 3/31/2010


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Sixto said:


> All we needed was one simple question: when will the DirecTV box be available for shipment. very simple. ah well ...


This was a call where I longed for the old days when Cramer would call in and give the officers hell. It would have been nice to have that simple answer. I just want to know when it's going to be out. It was obvious to me that Atlanta is not a focus for the Comcast rollout so I guess I'm stuck with the D* DVR until it happens.


----------



## Sixto

and Rogers also speaks tomorrow at the Deutsche Bank Securities Media and Telecommunications Conference ...


----------



## Sixto

Tallgntlmn said:


> This was a call where I longed for the old days when Cramer would call in and give the officers hell. It would have been nice to have that simple answer.


yep, there were only 5 analysts selected ... 4 asked questions, and one was asleep when they called on him so they jumped to the next analyst ... and the call ended early with no more questions ... Rogers did reference the "bad weather day" when there weren't any more questions ...


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> This was a call where I longed for the old days when Cramer would call in and give the officers hell. It would have been nice to have that simple answer. I just want to know when it's going to be out. It was obvious to me that Atlanta is not a focus for the Comcast rollout so I guess I'm stuck with the D* DVR until it happens.


Ya. Just finished listening to it myself, and as *Sixto *said, had he been asked a DirecTV question, I'm pretty sure he would have answered it. In fact, he referenced DirecTV partly in response to a question he didn't need to. I thought by doing so, he was inviting a DirecTV follow-up, but nobody took the bait. /steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> I thought by doing so, he was inviting a DirecTV follow-up, but nobody took the bait. /steve


I heard it as well and feel the same way. Too bad the analysts dropped the ball on that one considering DirecTV didn't say anything about TiVo in their call according to other posts here.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> This could possible be a reaffirmation of "2H 2009" .. I'll still stick with my original estimate of 3/31/2010


That's what I'm expecting...seeing it at CES 2010 and then a public release about 90 days later.


----------



## jacmyoung

TiVo was mainly talking about trying to get the DirecTiVo SD subs to move on to the new DirecTiVo HD box in the future, it seemed.

The DirecTiVo HD subs will not wait so long, they don't even have much HD to watch right now.


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's what I'm expecting...seeing it at CES 2010 and then a public release about 90 days later.


With the economy as it is right now, I don't know, there might not even be a CES 2010, or Vegas for that matter.


----------



## Sixto

transcript up: http://seekingalpha.com/article/123687-tivo-inc-q4-2009-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1

weird ... directv parts missing


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> transcript up: http://seekingalpha.com/article/123687-tivo-inc-q4-2009-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1
> 
> weird ... directv parts missing


The audio is still available, but you've already accurately quoted it here. No need for the transcription, IMHO.

Hopefully he'll get more questions at the _Deutsche Bank _conference today. /steve


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> transcript up: http://seekingalpha.com/article/123687-tivo-inc-q4-2009-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1
> 
> weird ... directv parts missing


If this happens again today, that may be a sign.


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's what I'm expecting...seeing it at CES 2010 and then a public release about 90 days later.


If it is going to be a new hardware platform (which I believe it will be), then this is a likely scenario.

However, if it is a software update to HR hardware, then we would see it by the end of 2009.

So the question I wish the TiVo folks would answer, is will it be new hardware or not? That would go a long ways in answering the timing question IMHO.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> transcript up: http://seekingalpha.com/article/123687-tivo-inc-q4-2009-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1
> 
> weird ... directv parts missing


Here's the Comcast part of Mr. Rogers' answer, including 5 seconds of DirecTV at the end. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If this happens again today, that may be a sign.


The project is clearly not dead .. while there was very little information, there was enough to squash the idea that TiVo had abandoned the project.


----------



## Steve

ATARI said:


> So the question I wish the TiVo folks would answer, is will it be new hardware or not? That would go a long ways in answering the timing question IMHO.


The DirecTV HR21/22/23 use the same basic CPU and similar hardware architecture to the current TiVoHD box, so it's not much of a stretch to believe that this is probably just a software effort on TiVo's part.

Given that porting work probably started several months ago, if it's not already in beta, I wouldn't be surprised to see it in beta by late spring of this year. Just my .02.

Does anyone remember how HR10 beta customers were selected? Was that done through TiVo or DirecTV?

/steve


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Hopefully he'll get more questions at the _Deutsche Bank _conference today. /steve


2:55 pm EST according to Tivo's website.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> 2:55 pm EST according to Tivo's website.


Looks like if you painlessly register here, you may not only hear audio, but see a slide show as well. /steve


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Looks like if you painlessly register here, you may not only hear audio, but see a slide show as well. /steve


Yea, I always fill in junk for those registrations. There weren't any slides for the DirecTV presentation that just ended, although I missed the first half. But yea, if there are slides they should stream.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> The project is clearly not dead .. while there was very little information, there was enough to squash the idea that TiVo had abandoned the project.


But has D* abandoned the project? D* has no obligation to fulfill this agreement.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> But has D* abandoned the project? D* has no obligation to fulfill this agreement.


Why would DirecTV even consider walking away from this agreement where they have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain?

It gives them another weapon in their customer acquistion/retention arsenal, and costs them essentially nothing, because I'm sure the TiVo upcharge will be passed along to the customer.

/steve


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> But has D* abandoned the project? D* has no obligation to fulfill this agreement.


Actually DIRECTV is contractually obligated to spend money regardless. So it probably helps them to offset those costs to have a working premium receiver. 

Mostly, DIRECTV's involvement from what I recall is to provide specifications, modify the data stream to allow TiVo featured data, and work out a suitable secure software download that doesn't require phone lines. Most of this should be a no brainer for both parties, I think. (But I very easily could be missing something.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bonscott87

Tivo conference is up...just Tom talking about Tivo (no surprise there). I'll only post something if I hear something on DirecTV.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> But has D* abandoned the project? D* has no obligation to fulfill this agreement.





Tom Robertson said:


> Actually DIRECTV is contractually obligated to spend money regardless. So it probably helps them to offset those costs to have a working premium receiver.
> 
> Mostly, DIRECTV's involvement from what I recall is to provide specifications, modify the data stream to allow TiVo featured data, and work out a suitable secure software download that doesn't require phone lines. Most of this should be a no brainer for both parties, I think. (But I very easily could be missing something.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yup .. Tom's got it. Basically DIRECTV will provide some services (which should be easily providable) .. But TiVo is on the hook for making it a reality.


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> Tivo conference is up...just Tom talking about Tivo (no surprise there). I'll only post something if I hear something on DirecTV.


me too.


----------



## Sixto

not one mention of DirecTV during opening remarks. EchoStar litigation, SeaChange, Alticast, Comcast, ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. Tom's got it. Basically DIRECTV will provide some services (which should be easily providable) .. But TiVo is on the hook for making it a reality.


...apparently they are not *worried* about anything at this point....


----------



## Sixto

at least a mention of DirecTV ... "DirecTV can light up all markets at once"

we need someone to stand up in the audience and ask the simple question!!!!!


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> at least a mention of DirecTV ... "DirecTV can light up all markets at once"
> 
> we need someone to stand up in the audience and ask the simple question!!!!!


Ya. Tho I have a feeling there are not too many D* customers in yesterday's and today's respective audiences, so this deal is not a burning question outside this forum! :lol: /steve


----------



## bonscott87

Yea, no questions on DirecTV at all. Maybe they are blinded by Tivo's stock going up today.


----------



## Sixto

Netflix thru TiVo ... "terrific" ... "usage growing nicely" ...


----------



## Sixto

"85% of new TiVo HD are getting broadband connected" ...


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Ya. Tho I have a feeling there are not too many D* customers in yesterday's and today's respective audiences, so this deal is not a burning question outside this forum! :lol: /steve


Well, it should be for Tivo's long term viability and these are financial guys. But maybe with Tivo *finally* turning a profit the DirecTV isn't seen as quite as important by the street.


----------



## Steve

Rogers says their biggest cause of churn-out is single-tuner TiVo users upgrading to HDTV and their Cable or Sat operator offering them a comprehensive HD DVR package before TiVo has a chance to get back to them. /steve


----------



## Sixto

another day ... another end to a CEO presentation ... only the one reference to DirecTV above ... no questions about DirecTV ... much, much talk of EchoStar litigation and cable ...


----------



## bonscott87

And it's done. I was pretty surprised with no mention of DirecTV with as much as Tivo talked it up last fall. I just don't get the change and why even Tivo isn't talking much about it now. Seems weird. But like said before, it's not canceled and still on the books.


----------



## Doug Brott

Nothing on the new HD DIRECTiVo ..


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> their Cable or Sat operator offering them a comprehensive HD DVR package before TiVo has a chance to get back to them.


Like we D* customers have a choice? It's the D* DVR, no DVR or cable with TiVo. We'd be better off if some PC maker made a dual tuner PCI-E card that tuned satellite.

Even if TiVo could get back to me, they don't offer what I need. Dammit, why couldn't someone just ask the question?


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Nothing on the new HD DIRECTiVo ..


Nope. Just TiVo's focus on what Rogers sees as the inevitable paradigm shift the 30-second TV commercial is going to need to go through, once there are 50-60 million DVR's in homes in a couple of years.

He thinks the TV ad industry isn't yet facing what the newspaper and music industries are facing now, but believes it's coming.

/steve


----------



## Sixto

Tallgntlmn said:


> Dammit, why couldn't someone just ask the question?


He's a good speaker ... he answers all questions very nicely ... he spoke for 35 minutes ... he talked for many minutes about EchoStar ... there were questions about EchoStar ... he was happy with the cable penetration ... he got questions about cable ... fluid discussion ... they asked about future revenue streams ... he talked about the ratings analysis again ... talked about everything ... future is bright ... not one single reference to DirecTV other then when he was comparing a cable roll-out to DirecTV where cable is market-by-market and DirecTV is national all at once ... other then that ... re: DirecTV ... zip, nada, nothing.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

I heard it. I was waiting patiently for someone to ask. All they had to ask was something like "you see churn in your DirecTV subscribers, what is the timeline to stop that," or something along those lines. The only thing we know is that DirecTV is still on their radar as a revenue stream. 

The commercial thing threw me a bit. Is he contemplating putting more ads on the unit? Do the HR2x receivers have ads on the guide and the "press thumbs up for more" thing?


----------



## Steve

Just listened to Chase Carey's presentation at the same conference earlier in the day. At the end of his presentation, there was not a single question from the audience!

Just questions from the moderator, and he was more interested in financials and shareholder value type questions... SAC, ARPU, South America, cash flow and the current and future relationship with Liberty.

They also talked about the NFL deal, and Chase said when the time comes to renew, he has a maximum value in mind for NFL content, and if he loses exclusivity, DirecTV is prepared to compete on it's own merits. /steve


----------



## DarinC

Steve said:


> if he loses exclusivity, DirecTV is prepared to compete on it's own merits. /steve


Is that something we're supposed to believe, or the NFL?


----------



## Jhon69

Tallgntlmn said:


> Like we D* customers have a choice? It's the D* DVR, no DVR or cable with TiVo. We'd be better off if some PC maker made a dual tuner PCI-E card that tuned satellite.
> 
> Even if TiVo could get back to me, they don't offer what I need. Dammit, why couldn't someone just ask the question?


I think you answered your own question.


----------



## Jhon69

Tallgntlmn said:


> I heard it. I was waiting patiently for someone to ask. All they had to ask was something like "you see churn in your DirecTV subscribers, what is the timeline to stop that," or something along those lines. The only thing we know is that DirecTV is still on their radar as a revenue stream.
> 
> The commercial thing threw me a bit. Is he contemplating putting more ads on the unit? Do the HR2x receivers have ads on the guide and the "press thumbs up for more" thing?


The HR2xs and R22s have ads in the guide.No the HR2xs and R22s don't have Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down.


----------



## Sixto

From Dave Zatz: "I gave one of my TiVo contacts a call to dig deeper. Specifically, I'm interested in learning more about the hardware platform, who's providing it, and if they're resetting expectations regarding the possibility of a 2009 launch. Unfortunately, TiVo remains tight lipped and I came away with no new or additional info." http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-03/the-day-in-tivo/


----------



## Lee L

Well, if Zatz can't pull any info out of then, they are trying to keep it a secret for sure.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. Tom's got it. Basically DIRECTV will provide some services (which should be easily providable) .. But TiVo is on the hook for making it a reality.


True, but D* is not "on the hook" for anything, they are not obligated to do anything.

As I said before, and this is of course only my speculation, the timing of that agreement annoucement was very interesting, it was the day before TiVo and E* were to go into that courtroom to fight over whether E* was in contempt, and *how much more money E* owes TiVo*, and the new agreement made a point of the *significantly higher fee* on the proposed new DirecTiVo, and guess what, next day in the courtroom, the TiVo lawyers argued E* must pay a *much higher royalty fee* when calculating the additional damages.

Of course nothing came out of that hearing. Who knows, maybe D* never was serious about it, just wanted to help give its competitor (E*) some more bitter pills to swallow, nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> From Dave Zatz: "I gave one of my TiVo contacts a call to dig deeper. Specifically, I'm interested in learning more about the hardware platform, who's providing it, and if they're resetting expectations regarding the possibility of a 2009 launch. Unfortunately, TiVo remains tight lipped and I came away with no new or additional info." http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-03/the-day-in-tivo/


The more I think about this, it's not surprising to me at all. It would make perfect sense that, as part of the deal, DirecTV insisted on a TiVo "gag order" regarding the new DirecTiVo timelines. Why? For exactly the reason posted earlier in this thread:



t_h said:


> [...] Directv doesnt want their customers standing around waiting another year or so for the tivo. It wants them to make a decision right now with the products currently available.


Just my .02. /steve


----------



## harsh

jacmyoung said:


> True, but D* is not "on the hook" for anything, they are not obligated to do anything.


You need to re-read the redacted agreement again. There are indeed some obligations on DIRECTV's side.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Steve, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Maybe nothing's been said because there's nothing to say. Nothing promising or exciting, anyway. I know that a lot of folks in this forum (myself included) would love to hear "we're finishing up build 0135 and working through video driver issues with the XLS0165" but that doesn't make for headlines.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> Steve, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Maybe nothing's been said because there's nothing to say. Nothing promising or exciting, anyway. I know that a lot of folks in this forum (myself included) would love to hear "we're finishing up build 0135 and working through video driver issues with the XLS0165" but that doesn't make for headlines.


Yup. You could be absolutely right. I would just find it hard to believe that the folks at TiVo are not working furiously to get this product out the door, because so many proven millions of dollars of subscriber revenue hang in the balance.

And of course this all assumes that DirecTV is cooperating, but I see no reason for them not to. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by adding another subscriber acquisition lure to their portfolio. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> True, but D* is not "on the hook" for anything, they are not obligated to do anything.
> 
> As I said before, and this is of course only my speculation, the timing of that agreement annoucement was very interesting, it was the day before TiVo and E* were to go into that courtroom to fight over whether E* was in contempt, and *how much more money E* owes TiVo*, and the new agreement made a point of the *significantly higher fee* on the proposed new DirecTiVo, and guess what, next day in the courtroom, the TiVo lawyers argued E* must pay a *much higher royalty fee* when calculating the additional damages.
> 
> Of course nothing came out of that hearing. Who knows, maybe D* never was serious about it, just wanted to help give its competitor (E*) some more bitter pills to swallow, nothing wrong with that.





harsh said:


> You need to re-read the redacted agreement again. There are indeed some obligations on DIRECTV's side.


Agreed .. DIRECTV doesn't have the bulk of the work, but DIRECTV does have some obligations.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> Steve, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Maybe nothing's been said because there's nothing to say. Nothing promising or exciting, anyway. I know that a lot of folks in this forum (myself included) would love to hear "we're finishing up build 0135 and working through video driver issues with the XLS0165" but that doesn't make for headlines.


But it does, especially for TiVo while they continue to lose D* accounts en masse.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Agreed .. DIRECTV doesn't have the bulk of the work, but DIRECTV does have some obligations.


Technically yes, but when a "disclaimer" is put at the end that D* is not obligated to fulfill this agreement, there is nothing TiVo can do if D* decided to do nothing.

When "we reserve the right to refuse service without advance notice" is put in an agreement, people do not automatically assume they will refuse the service, just that in the event they do, people cannot go after them to say hey you are obligated to provide that service to us.


----------



## Elephanthead

Ah yes the DTV special contract, here is the contract you are bound, we on the other hand can change the terms whenever we want. Oh by the way, you are committed before you even see the contract, OKTHNKSBAI. I love DTV, I just wish they weren't so slimy. I wish ATT U verse didn't suck so badly. Oh well I am looking forward to DTIVO and or a PC tuner.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Technically yes, but when a "disclaimer" is put at the end that D* is not obligated to fulfill this agreement, there is nothing TiVo can do if D* decided to do nothing.
> 
> When "we reserve the right to refuse service without advance notice" is put in an agreement, people do not automatically assume they will refuse the service, just that in the event they do, people cannot go after them to say hey you are obligated to provide that service to us.


Apparently you are selectively reading these comments from the SEC filing .. It doesn't exactly say that "DIRECTV is not obligated to fulfull this agreement." Either state the facts correctly or don't state them as if they are facts.

What it says is DIRECTV is "under no obligation to provide additional information or assistance regarding New Platforms." Very different than your comments and very much in line with TiVo is on the hook .. However, it in no way means that DIRECTV has zero obligations.

Basically, DIRECTV has to (in good faith) provide TiVo with a receiver for the TiVo software, support for getting the TiVo software onto the receiver and money for the effort. But if you think about it, that's common sense .. how else could TiVo complete their task of porting the firmware to DIRECTV's platform? :shrug:



Sixto said:


> some tidbits from http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-08-251359
> 
> DIRECTV will/shall:have no obligation to support TiVo with third party information contained within the Platform Documentation
> 
> otherwise use commercially reasonable efforts to obtain any required third party consents promptly after the Restatement Effective Date
> 
> use commercially reasonable efforts to ensure that DIRECTV vendors with technology or intellectual property that is required for TiVo to develop the TE Solution enter into commercially reasonable agreements with TiVo (or DIRECTV) to provide TiVo (or DIRECTV and its contractors) with reasonable cooperation and support along with any technology or licenses required for the TE Solution
> 
> will discuss and negotiate in good faith a workaround that enables TiVo to complete the TE Solution without such vendor's cooperation, support, technology or licenses
> 
> use commercially reasonably efforts to notify TiVo as promptly as practicable after it confirms that a material change to the information delivered to TiVo in the Preliminary Hardware Documentation has occurred
> 
> provide TiVo with Platform Documentation for the applicable New Platform and provide such other technical information as is reasonably necessary for TiVo to develop and initiate a PCR (or respond to a PCR initiated by DIRECTV) to port the TE Software to such New Platform
> 
> provide TiVo access to a project manager and such technical and other information as is reasonably necessary to complete a preliminary version of the TE Solution Statement of Work
> 
> provide TiVo with relevant Platform Documentation for the [*] and [*] for such model suitable for development
> 
> authorize all relevant DIRECTV vendor(s) (but not more than one manufacturer selected by TiVo at any time) to provide TiVo with such Platform Documentation in such vendor's possession
> 
> provide such Platform Documentation to TiVo promptly after the Restatement Effective Date
> 
> continue to undertake reasonable efforts to obtain consents
> 
> notify TiVo upon DIRECTV TE Acceptance
> 
> provide TiVo with access to [*] information regarding any New Platforms (as defined below) as set forth below in this Section 2.11(b).
> 
> under no obligation to provide additional information or assistance regarding New Platforms (unless otherwise set forth in this Agreement or as mutually agreed in a PCR), and TiVo will treat all information provided under this Section 2.11(b) as Confidential Information under this Agreement.
> 
> provide TiVo with access to any Preliminary Hardware Documentation (as defined below) for New Platforms then available to DIRECTV
> 
> provide TiVo with the Preliminary Hardware Documentation for each New Platform when it becomes available.
> 
> provide TiVo with Preliminary Hardware Documentation for the DIRECTV DVR Model [*] (or, if there is no DIRECTV Model [*] , the successor to DIRECTV DVR Model [*] ) no later than [*]
> 
> have no obligation to provide TiVo with information or explanations regarding the Preliminary Hardware Documentation, or to authorize DIRECTV's vendors to do so, and TiVo acknowledges that DIRECTV does not intend to devote resources to discussion of the Preliminary Hardware Documentation.​TE Solution Development Fees:In consideration of TiVo's development of the TE Solution and any other TiVo Technology under Sections 2.10 or 2.11, TiVo will invoice DIRECTV, and DIRECTV shall pay to TiVo within [*] of such invoice, development fees (" TE Development Fees ") in the aggregate amounts, and according to the payment schedules, set forth in the TE Solution Statement of Work and any PCR related to the TE Solution executed by the Parties; provided, however , that any TE Development Fees payable by DIRECTV to TiVo as of a particular date will be offset by any available Development Credit (as set forth in Section 3.14) as of such date, TiVo's invoice will show the available Development Credit, and DIRECTV shall remit a payment statement to TiVo within [*] of the date of invoice showing the amount of Development Credit applied to such invoice and the remaining amount of TE Development Fees due, if any, and will concurrently pay any such remaining amount.​


----------



## jacmyoung

> have no obligation to support TiVo with third party information contained within the Platform Documentation&#8230;
> 
> under no obligation to provide additional information or assistance regarding New Platforms&#8230;
> 
> have no obligation to provide TiVo with information or explanations regarding the Preliminary Hardware Documentation, or to authorize DIRECTV's vendors to do so, and TiVo acknowledges that DIRECTV does not intend to devote resources to discussion of the Preliminary Hardware Documentation.


Sounded a lot like a "one sided love" affair than something of mutual interest to me


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Sounded a lot like a "one sided love" affair than something of mutual interest to me


Excerpting these three clauses is very disingenuous. DIRECTV ain't obligated to talk about the documentation the hardware vendors supply. In other words, DIRECTV isn't going to do TiVo's work for them.

That small excerpt leaves off all the things (and money!) DIRECTV _is_ required to put into the project.

Some of those requirements are mutual interest: making data stream changes, specifications for the project, etc.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Sounded a lot like a "one sided love" affair than something of mutual interest to me





Tom Robertson said:


> Excerpting these three clauses is very disingenuous. DIRECTV ain't obligated to talk about the documentation the hardware vendors supply. In other words, DIRECTV isn't going to do TiVo's work for them.
> 
> That small excerpt leaves off all the things (and money!) DIRECTV _is_ required to put into the project.
> 
> Some of those requirements are mutual interest: making data stream changes, specifications for the project, etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Plus, and I must reiterate this point .. jacmyoung, you said "DIRECTV is not obligated to fulfill this agreement." Your excerpt does not say that.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Plus, and I must reiterate this point .. jacmyoung, you said "DIRECTV is not obligated to fulfill this agreement." Your excerpt does not say that.


While technically not so, but in the context of what we are hearing (and not hearing from D*), and the timing of the news release on 9/3/08, to take the situation as a whole, it is my speculation that D* might just use those excerpts to say hey we have decided not to support this project, because we have evaluated the current market conditions and have decided to terminate some "significant capital projects" for 09 and this is one of them.

I am only putting it bluntly.

Of course I can be easily proven wrong if D* comes out next day and tells us how much they have advanced on this project with TiVo.

I just do not care about what TiVo is saying, not at the level TiVo is saying anyway.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I am only putting it bluntly.


As you have a right to do .. Thank you for stating this as speculation rather than fact because, IMHO, your speculation doesn't line up with the facts.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> While technically not so, but in the context of what we are hearing (and not hearing from D*), and the timing of the news release on 9/3/08, to take the situation as a whole, it is my speculation that D* might just use those excerpts to say hey we have decided not to support this project, because we have evaluated the current market conditions and have decided to terminate some "significant capital projects" for 09 and this is one of them.
> 
> I am only putting it bluntly.
> 
> Of course I can be easily proven wrong if D* comes out next day and tells us how much they have advanced on this project with TiVo.
> 
> I just do not care about what TiVo is saying, not at the level TiVo is saying anyway.


Those are not the "weasel clauses" you think they are. They can't let DIRECTV out of the project; only extra support for the documentation of the hardware.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Of course I can be easily proven wrong if D* comes out next day and tells us how much they have advanced on this project with TiVo.
> 
> I just do not care about what TiVo is saying, not at the level TiVo is saying anyway.


We're likely not to hear anything else from DIRECTV until there is a real product. DIRECTV is providing necessary support to TiVo (contractual obligation) but it's TiVo doing the work. With TiVo remaining somewhat mum on the topic, clearly we're not going to see anything tomorrow.

I still postulate that Rogers' "focus on DIRECTV" comments relate to unleashing more Engineering resources towards the completion of the new DIRECTiVo. If TiVo can turn it around quickly, then perhaps 2009 is still a possibility. My expectation is still end of Q1 2010 .. has been since the announcement last September.

The only hitch in that so far was the lack of discussion by TiVo this past January, but I believe we are past that point now.


----------



## Sixto

haven't read through the SEC filing in several weeks but it seemed that after the project plan was finalized, that DirecTV was to provide TiVo with the "new" hardware platform. it always seemed that it would be the HR24 (or some future platform).

quite possible that the follow-on has been delayed. they did announce that capital projects had been cut. and now maybe the TiVo project is somewhat delayed as a result.

there certainly was the impression from the SEC filing that a new platform is being created and both the current HR2x and future TiVo software would run on the same future platform.


----------



## Sixto

my 2 cents ...

there will be a new DirecTV HD TiVo box. (again confirmed in this week's press release).

it probably will be later then originally expected. (assumed because the press release obviously contains no timeframe, whereas the previous announcement had a clear target date).

the HR2x continues to be enhanced.

we now wait. and patience is a virtue.

the economy is not in good shape.

many people are losing their jobs.

many people are losing their homes.

we're not sure where bottom is with the stock market and many people have half of the life savings that they had 6 months ago.

so the rumored delay of the new DirecTV HD TiVo box may not be so important in the bigger scheme of things ...


----------



## jacmyoung

Or there can be another scenario, where it has been speculated that the new TiVo software might just be working on the existing HR platform, and D* indeed had fulfilled their obligations by providing the needed documentation and platform, and that HR platform did not work out well.

Not possible? How long have we complained about the HR's sluggish response?

Now in a normal economic condition, D* might say hey we'll invest in a more robust new HR platform so to help TiVo to implement all the advanced DVR features, but not now, because we are cutting back on the "capital projects" in 09, so at this time this is all we are able to provide.

The possibility is there, and who can really predict what might happen tomorrow in the current economic conditions?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Or there can be another scenario, where it has been speculated that the new TiVo software might just be working on the existing HR platform, and D* indeed had fulfilled their obligations by providing the needed documentation and platform, and that HR platform did not work out well.


Sounds to me like you are in fantasy land wishfully thinking that TiVo won't deliver. Sorry the evidence is no longer there. The chance of it "not happening" was much greater when TiVo refused to comment about it in January. Now that they've reaffirmed that it's on the roadmap it doesn't make sense to suggest that it's not.

I won't be switching to TiVo even if they do deliver .. but I'm not blind to the facts that we do have.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Sounds to me like you are in fantasy land wishfully thinking that TiVo won't deliver. Sorry the evidence is no longer there. The chance of it "not happening" was much greater when TiVo refused to comment about it in January. Now that they've reaffirmed that it's on the roadmap it doesn't make sense to suggest that it's not.
> 
> I won't be switching to TiVo even if they do deliver .. but I'm not blind to the facts that we do have.


I can say just about the same about you though

How about we wait till some time next year to find out? I will be the first to eat crow when it is in front of me.


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> I won't be switching to TiVo even if they do deliver ..


I'm still interested in giving the new Tivo box a test drive. Be interesting to see what they develop.

The HR2x has been fine but it will be fun to compare and contrast.

Not sure I could ever go back to not having the picture in guide.

But if the new TiVo box runs on a Broadcom processor 2x/3x the speed of the current box, if the TiVo Glo tactile remote is fully supported, if TiVo MRV works like it currently does for cable and lets you move any recording from box to box within the home, if the GUI is an HD GUI, if TiVo2Go is enabled and works like it does with cable and lets you transfer any recording to your laptop and iPod, if DLB is fully supported like the HR10, if all of the TiVo Desktop apps are supported especially the HD Photo App, and if all the broadband features are supported including NetFlix ... well, then it might be an interesting analysis.

If it's July, or December, or next March ... no problem ... HR2x is fine in the interim.


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> If it's July, or December, or next March ... no problem ... HR2x is fine in the interim.


My belief has always been December '09.

Time will tell.

And if the HR2x get DLB by then, I won't even care.


----------



## Ken_F

Sixto said:


> I'm still interested in giving the new Tivo box a test drive. Be interesting to see what they develop.
> 
> The HR2x has been fine but it will be fun to compare and contrast.
> 
> Not sure I could ever go back to not having the picture in guide.
> 
> But if the new TiVo box runs on a Broadcom processor 2x/3x the speed of the current box, if the TiVo Glo tactile remote is fully supported, if TiVo MRV works like it currently does for cable and lets you move any recording from box to box within the home, if the GUI is an HD GUI, if TiVo2Go is enabled and works like it does with cable and lets you transfer any recording to your laptop and iPod, if DLB is fully supported like the HR10, if all of the TiVo Desktop apps are supported especially the HD Photo App, and if all the broadband features are supported including NetFlix ... well, then it might be an interesting analysis.


I suspect DirecTV will have a new platform next fall for both the NDS software and the TiVo software, based on a faster SoC like the Broadcom BCM7335 (link).

With regard to DirecTiVo functionality, TiVo did say the following last week:


> Additionally, we continue to work on our new Direct TV HD DVR. The
> new HD DVR will include many popular Tivo broadband features and will
> be immediately accessible to Direct TV's entire national customer base
> on day one of the launch. We have a very successful history with Direct
> TV and those subscribers are some of our most loyal customers.
> Now, as these customers look to upgrade from standard definition
> programming, they will have the option to choose the Tivo experience so
> they can get the most out of their Hi-def viewing experience.


----------



## clintreeves84

Doug, the quote you quoted from jacmyoung was interpreted wrong, he was in that post not saying Directv is abandoning the project, what he meant is, sice the HR series is a failure, can not handle DLB (because of hardware and how the software would bog the system down) and it can not (for same reason) can not have over 50 series links - (the current HR hardware platform is not suitable for Tivo to simply implement its software because the Directv HR2X series can not handle the advanced Tivo software)

when Directv has the HR24 or HR30 - (whatever it will be called) with the newer chipsets and better hardware, THAT is what is holding up the Tivo software, because you can not put any software on hardware that can not handle it (software too taxing for the current hardware) - (because TIVO software needs basic hardware that can handle having DLB & over 50 series links / Season Passes)

Tivo is waiting for the newest DirecTV HDDVR before it tests/implements/etc

ALSO, with DirecTV wanting to save money in this economy, you can bet within 1 year they will pick either the in-house or TIVO to be their exclusive DVR, to save $$$$ - ( and before you say this barely costing DirecTV anything, that is true somewhat, BUT having 1 platform (although having to phase it in as you replace the PLus line will cost $$) in the long run will save them even more $$$



jacmyoung said:


> Or there can be another scenario, where it has been speculated that the new TiVo software might just be working on the existing HR platform, and D* indeed had fulfilled their obligations by providing the needed documentation and platform, and that HR platform did not work out well.


________



Doug Brott said:


> Sounds to me like you are in fantasy land wishfully thinking that TiVo won't deliver. Sorry the evidence is no longer there. The chance of it "not happening" was much greater when TiVo refused to comment about it in January. Now that they've reaffirmed that it's on the roadmap it doesn't make sense to suggest that it's not.
> 
> I won't be switching to TiVo even if they do deliver .. but I'm not blind to the facts that we do have.


----------



## Steve

Ken_F said:


> I suspect DirecTV will have a new platform next fall for both the NDS software and the TiVo software, based on a faster SoC like the Broadcom BCM7335 (link).





clintreeves84 said:


> (the current HR hardware platform is not suitable for Tivo to simply implement its software because the Directv HR2X series can not handle the advanced Tivo software)


The current TiVo HdXL box runs on the same Broadcom CPU as the HR20's, and the current TiVo HD box runs on the same Broadcom CPU as the DirecTV HR21/22/23's. You can look it up. 

Not to mention the fact that the DirecTiVo HR10-250 6.x software runs on a slower DirecTV box, with less memory than the HR2x, and it handles both OTA and SAT HD processing without a hiccup.

Lastly, the Cox/Comcast TiVo software ports are running as *middleware* _on top_ of existing software on those boxes.

Bottom line, lack of available horsepower is not an issue in this situation. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

clintreeves84 said:


> ALSO, with DirecTV wanting to save money in this economy, you can bet within 1 year they will pcik either the in-house or TIVO to be their exclusive DVR, to save $$$$


Wanna bet on this one?


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Wanna bet on this one?


The only thing I am not willing to bet on is what any of those CEO's are saying today, if they are all telling the whole truth they should be all out of job by now.


----------



## NickIndy

ATARI said:


> My belief has always been December '09.


Absolutely what I'm thinking as well. If this ends up being new hardware, it will definitely be out for the Christmas shopping season (late November/early December). If it is a software only solution, I would expect it maybe earlier since it is being coded for already existing and well known hardware and TiVo should have the basic DirecTV compatibility out of the way because of the previous HDTivo.


----------



## harsh

jacmyoung said:


> Sounded a lot like a "one sided love" affair than something of mutual interest to me


You have to put clauses like this in there to keep the partner from asking your people questions when the documentation contains the answers that they need. This can also help prevent accidental sharing of IP.


----------



## harsh

Ken_F said:


> I suspect DirecTV will have a new platform next fall for both the NDS software and the TiVo software, based on a faster SoC like the Broadcom BCM7335 (link).


We would probably all do well not to mention NDS in the same breath as the Plus HD DVR. It may be based on elements of the NDS software but popular thinking is that it was not developed by NDS.


----------



## harsh

clintreeves84 said:


> ALSO, with DirecTV wanting to save money in this economy, you can bet within 1 year they will pick either the in-house or TIVO to be their exclusive DVR, to save $$$$ - ( and before you say this barely costing DirecTV anything, that is true somewhat, BUT having 1 platform (although having to phase it in as you replace the PLus line will cost $$) in the long run will save them even more $$$


I find this line of reasoning to be wrong on a number of levels:

1. It is quite unlikely that TiVo can get this new platform up and running to everyone's satisfaction by this time next year. They might not even get it released by this time next year.

2. The CSRs are getting reasonably familiar with the scripts surrounding the HR2x as well as some of its most popular faults. TiVo would almost certainly bring new faults and just as likely do away with the faults that are a result of bad DIRECTV decisions (I'm thinking of the grossly underpowered database engine).

3. The new TiVo project is probably more a function of keeping the TiVo patent lawyers off of DIRECTV's back. I suspect that if they didn't need protection from that, they wouldn't have done this new deal to create a revenue source for TiVo at the likely expense of one of their own.


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> It is quite unlikely that TiVo can get this new platform up and running to everyone's satisfaction by this time next year. They might not even get it released by this time next year.


Considering the HR21/TivoXL hardware platforms are so similar and it's been almost 6 months since the agreement was announced, I wouldn't be surprised if they've got it up and running in alpha form already.

I heard Rogers say publicly on Tuesday that the primary source of "churn-out" for TiVo monthly subs was customers ready to switch from SD to HD and being offered an "all-in-one" non-TiVo HD DVR solution from their current provider. Unless there's some hidden agenda on either company's side that we're not privy to, why would TiVo not want to get this product out the door ASAP? There are $10's of millions of subscriber revenue at stake here.



harsh said:


> [...] they wouldn't have done this new deal to create a revenue source for TiVo at the likely expense of one of their own. [...]


If the TiVo monthly upcharge is passed along to the subscriber (a la Comcast, who I believe charges an extra $2-$3 month for TiVo service), how does this impact DirecTV's revenue stream? If anything, it adds some more $80-$100/month subs that might never have signed-up with DirecTV because they couldn't get HD TiVo, or who might have otherwise left DirecTV because they lost TiVo HD service (and possibly DLB's). And it doesn't cost them a single, currently-satisfied HR2x customer. /steve


----------



## wesmills

Steve said:


> If the TiVo monthly upcharge is passed along to the subscriber (a la Comcast, who I believe charges an extra $2-$3 month for TiVo service), how does this impact DirecTV's revenue stream? If anything, it adds some more $80-$100/month subs that might never have signed-up with DirecTV because they couldn't get HD TiVo, or who might have otherwise left DirecTV because they lost TiVo HD service (and possibly DLB's). And it doesn't cost them a single, currently-satisfied HR2x customer. /steve


I'm in this last group, though it's to TiVo's benefit: Assuming DirecTV doesn't have anything to show and "coming very soon" by July--which I doubt they will--I'm going to FiOS TV with a flotilla of TiVo HD units. Yeah, it's expensive in the short term but at least I'll own the units and can cut all the way back to regular OTA if necessary. Plus, I'll get to stick with a platform I know and that we really enjoy.


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> Considering the HR21/TivoXL hardware platforms are so similar and it's been almost 6 months since the agreement was announced, I wouldn't be surprised if they've got it up and running in alpha form already.
> 
> I heard Rogers say publicly on Tuesday that the primary source of "churn-out" for TiVo monthly subs was customers ready to switch from SD to HD and being offered an "all-in-one" non-TiVo HD DVR solution from their current provider. Unless there's some hidden agenda on either company's side that we're not privy to, why would TiVo not want to get this product out the door ASAP? There are $10's of millions of subscriber revenue at stake here.


I don't think he or anyone is saying TiVo does not want this project ASAP, the question is whether DirecTV cares.



> If the TiVo monthly upcharge is passed along to the subscriber (a la Comcast, who I believe charges an extra $2-$3 month for TiVo service), how does this impact DirecTV's revenue stream? If anything, it adds some more $80-$100/month subs that might never have signed-up with DirecTV because they couldn't get HD TiVo, or who might have otherwise left DirecTV because they lost TiVo HD service (and possibly DLB's). And it doesn't cost them a single, currently-satisfied HR2x customer. /steve


If DirecTV starts to charge $2-3 more for their TiVo DVRs (some said more like $5-10), while some people will be willing to go for it just because they are TiVo fans, most will tend to go somewhere else.

It is a judgment call, if DirecTV based on its own numbers has determined most of those DirecTiVo HD subs had not left D*, rather switched to the HR DVRs, then there is little concern that a new TiVo HD box is necessary to stop the churn.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> If DirecTV starts to charge $2-3 more for their TiVo DVRs (some said more like $5-10), while some people will be willing to go for it just because they are TiVo fans, most will tend to go somewhere else.


And pay $300-$500 retail for a single TiVo box and $15/month or more to TiVo program listings, on top of what they're already paying their cable operator monthly? That makes no financial sense if you're already a DirecTV customer. /steve


----------



## loudo

Steve said:


> And pay $300-$500 retail for a single TiVo box and $15/month or more to TiVo program listings, on top of what they're already paying their cable operator monthly? That makes no financial sense if you're already a DirecTV customer. /steve


With the current economy, people are cutting back their programing to save money. With that thought, I can't see many people dishing out that kind of upfront and monthly costs, when their current receiver works fine.


----------



## Steve

loudo said:


> With the current economy, people are cutting back their programing to save money. With that thought, I can't see many people dishing out that kind of upfront and monthly costs, when their current receiver works fine.


Exactly. If they can just download the TiVo software to an existing HR box for an add'l $2-$3 per month, like they can apparently do with Comcast, that's a potentially more affordable proposition. /steve


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> Considering the HR21/TivoXL hardware platforms are so similar and it's been almost 6 months since the agreement was announced, I wouldn't be surprised if they've got it up and running in alpha form already.


While the processing equipment is decidedly similar, the TiVo will not be a Series 3 family device. It will be a DIRECTV HR2x family device (if not an off-the-shelf HR2x).

What you're suggesting is akin to saying that someone who is proficient in doing software for Intel based Linux machines should find no difficulty porting their software to OS-X.


----------



## DarinC

Steve said:


> ... or who might have otherwise left DirecTV because they lost TiVo HD service (and possibly DLB's).


... or who might have given DirecTV's DVR a chance, since they had to due to the shift to MPEG4, but were subsequently sorely dissapointed, increasingly frustrated, and looking for something to make them a happy DirecTV customer again before just giving up and going all netflix and streaming. :dozey:


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> What you're suggesting is akin to saying that someone who is proficient in doing software for Intel based Linux machines should find no difficulty porting their software to OS-X.


Yes, especially since OS-X runs on Intel x86 as well, just like both the TiVoXL's and HR21's run on BCM7401's. It shouldn't be anywhere near as difficult as starting from scratch, and they've already had 6 months to work on it. /steve


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> Yes, especially since OS-X runs on Intel x86 as well, just like both the TiVoXL's and HR21's run on BCM7401's. It shouldn't be anywhere near as difficult as starting from scratch, and they've already had 6 months to work on it. /steve


yep, seems like the main components are mostly the same and TiVo certainly has familiarity with the overall satellite input, guide data ...

the first complexity is what hardware components does TiVo need that are not in the HR2x today. the TiVo HD box does have some custom TiVo chips onboard. Either the future HR2x gets those chips or TiVo codes around it. It's not clear how significant this is.

the second area is getting the basics to work, mostly just getting MPEG4 and SWM to work. all the basic satellite stuff they know well, but MPEG4 and SWM is brand new.

the third area is to get the basic functions to work well. again, since most of the components are similar it just seems like they need those custom chips dealt with and MPEG4/SWM working and then fine tune the overall TiVo software to work optimally.

the last area is all the new stuff. DirecTV on Demand. Interactive features. DVR scheduling (which already worked on HR10) ...

the wildcard seems to be the custom chips. maybe they need to wait for the new hardware build before they can get moving rapidly.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> the wildcard seems to be the custom chips. maybe they need to wait for the new hardware build before they can get moving rapidly.


You could very well be right, but if they were able to piggy-back their software on top of the Comcast/Cox boxes, I wonder about the need for any custom chips. If they program for the existing box's MPEG-4/SWM/networking/SAT/OTA hardware, I'm not sure what other dedicated silicon is required.

Has DirecTV announce a new box? Because based on the SEC filing, it sounds like DirecTV already delivered hardware specifications to TiVo, at the time of last year's agreement. The filing does speak to DirecTV being on the hook for "new platform" documentation, but I (perhaps optimistically ) read that as giving TiVo advance specs and time to additionally port to any new boxes that may be coming out down the road.

/steve


----------



## Steve

FWIW, from the TiVoHD Q&A, found here:

_*# How does the TivoHD compare to the old DirecTiVo hardware?*

The original DirecTiVos were based on 166MHz processors with 64-128MB RAM and EIDE hard drives. The TivoHD has 256MB RAM with a SATA hard drive, and it uses the same 300MHz Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU found in the latest DirecTV HR21/HR22/HR23 and Dish Network ViP612 DVRs.

With the latest 11.0b software, the TivoHD is noticeably more responsive than the old DirecTiVos. Although improved over the old DirecTiVos, guide scrolling performance is still not comparable to the latest Dish Network ViP622/ViP722 satellite DVRs._


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> You could very well be right, but if they were able to piggy-back their software on top of the Comcast/Cox boxes, I wonder about the need for any custom chips. Why not just use the existing box's MPEG-4 and (in the case of DirecTV) SWM capability?
> 
> Has DirecTV announce a new box? Because based on the SEC filing, it sounds like DirecTV already delivered hardware specifications to TiVo, at the time of last year's agreement. The filing does speak to DirecTV being on the hook for "new platform" documentation, but I read that as giving TiVo advance specs and time to additionally port to any new boxes that may be coming out down the road.
> 
> /steve


yep, they did Comcast without the custom chips but that was totally different hardware and they needed to run on top of a different software layer. this is much easier and they'll run on the native hardware. may be nice to have some of custom TiVo chips to help performance but maybe not. HR10 had a few chips with TiVo on them.

yep, they'll use the native MPEG4 and SWM, they just need to write the "new" code.

yep, it didn't seem like the "specs" was the problem. they need a hardware prototype box to use as the alpha box.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> yep, it didn't seem like the "specs" was the problem. they need a hardware prototype box to use as the alpha box.


Ya, but I'm reading into the agreement that the first MPEG-4 DirecTiVo will be HR21-based, specs already delivered back in September, but DirecTiVo agrees to provide specs for future, yet to be delivered, boxes so TiVo s/w is ready to go as they roll those boxes out. That said, I could be reading too much into the agreement.  /steve


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> And pay $300-$500 retail for a single TiVo box and $15/month or more to TiVo program listings, on top of what they're already paying their cable operator monthly? That makes no financial sense if you're already a DirecTV customer. /steve


But who is? How many of the D* HD DVR subs would consider paying $300 to $500 and another $15/mo. for a TiVo service?

Do you see people buying standalone TiVo DVRs these days?

We are talking about folks who can get several HD DVRs from D* for $99/ea, and pay only $5/mo. for all of them, why would they want to pay another $300 and $3 to $10/mo. for some new D* TiVo box?

Some serious TiVo fans maybe, but not a regular D* sub.


----------



## Ken_F

harsh said:


> While the processing equipment is decidedly similar, the TiVo will not be a Series 3 family device. It will be a DIRECTV HR2x family device (if not an off-the-shelf HR2x).
> 
> What you're suggesting is akin to saying that someone who is proficient in doing software for Intel based Linux machines should find no difficulty porting their software to OS-X.


The DirecTV HR2x aren't running Linux? The TivoHD runs Linux v2.4.20.



Sixto said:


> the TiVo HD box does have some custom TiVo chips onboard. Either the future HR2x gets those chips or TiVo codes around it. It's not clear how significant this is.


I'm not aware of any custom chips in the TivoHD, unless you're referring to the Xilinx FPGA and the PROM, both of which are off-the-shelf parts with TiVo code on them.


----------



## Doug Brott

Ken_F said:


> The DirecTV HR2x aren't running Linux? The TivoHD runs Linux v2.4.20.


Uh .. OK. :sure:


----------



## Sixto

Ken_F said:


> I'm not aware of any custom chips in the TivoHD, unless you're referring to the Xilinx FPGA and the PROM, both of which are off-the-shelf parts with TiVo code on them.


interesting.

was just referring to a long ago visual inspection of the inside of a Series3 and HR10. there were chips with the TiVo logo on them. If you think that those chips are just generic chips that can easily be avoided in the new DirecTV box then we have an even easier solution.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> But who is? How many of the D* HD DVR subs would consider paying $300 to $500 and another $15/mo. for a TiVo service?
> 
> Do you see people buying standalone TiVo DVRs these days?
> 
> We are talking about folks who can get several HD DVRs from D* for $99/ea, and pay only $5/mo. for all of them, why would they want to pay another $300 and $3 to $10/mo. for some new D* TiVo box?
> 
> Some serious TiVo fans maybe, but not a regular D* sub.


Please carefully re-read your post and my response to it so we can keep the discussion coherent. I was responding to your statement:



jacmyoung said:


> If DirecTV starts to charge $2-3 more for their TiVo DVRs (some said more like $5-10), while some people will be willing to go for it just because they are TiVo fans, most will tend to go somewhere else.


I am talking about $2-$3 month on top of the current DirecTV bill, and no add'l equipment charges.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Steve said:


> Ya, but I'm reading into the agreement that the first MPEG-4 DirecTiVo will be HR21-based, specs already delivered back in September, but DirecTiVo agrees to provide specs for future, yet to be delivered, boxes so TiVo s/w is ready to go as they roll those boxes out. That said, I could be reading too much into the agreement.  /steve


I agree that it will probably be based on an existing platform but I suspect it might be the HR23-700.

We do know there are hardware differences even though we don't know what they are.

The first looks came out in November so the hardware for the HR23 had to be pretty much set in stone by the time the agreement was made.

Mike


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> interesting.
> 
> was just referring to a long ago visual inspection of the inside of a Series3 and HR10. there were chips with the TiVo logo on them. If you think that those chips are just generic chips that can easily be avoided in the new DirecTV box then we have an even easier solution.


Here are the TiVo HD hardware specs:

Detailed Specifications

 Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 decoders
 _(Same CPU as the DirecTV HR21/22/23 and Dish Network ViP612 DVRs)_
 256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)
 160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS (standard TivoHD); 1TB Western Digital WD10EVVS (TivoHD XL)
 2x MicroTune MT2131 tuners
 2x AMD Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators
 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs
 1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC w/ dedicated 32MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x NANYA NT5DS8M16FS-5T)
 CableCard interface
 2x [email protected] encoders

 Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller
 Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA
 2x CableCard slots
 A/V Inputs: 1x antenna coax, 1x cable coax (both split internally)
 A/V Outputs: HDMI, component, s-video, composite, optical digital, stereo
 10/100Mbps Ethernet
 RJ45 phone jack
 eSATA
 2x USB
 TiVo IR remote
 16.5"W x 12.625"D x 3.375"H
 9.0 lbs


----------



## Steve

MicroBeta said:


> I agree that it will probably be based on an existing platform but I suspect it might be the HR23-700.
> 
> We do know there are hardware differences even though we don't know what they are.
> 
> The first looks came out in November so the hardware for the HR23 had to be pretty much set in stone by the time the agreement was made.


Good point! Or even an HR22. I wondered why the need to bring out either, if they were functionally identical to the HR21 and just had a larger drive (and in the case of the HR23, built-in BBC's). /steve

*EDIT:* We don't know for sure if the HR22/23's use the same BCM7401 as the HR21 or the TiVo HD, but it's a pretty good assumption that they do.


----------



## ATARI

Steve said:


> Good point! Or even an HR22. I wondered why the need to bring out either, if they were functionally identical to the HR21 and just had a larger drive (and in the case of the HR23, built-in BBC's). /steve
> 
> *EDIT:* We don't know for sure if the HR22/23's use the same BCM7401 as the HR21 or the TiVo HD, but it's a pretty good assumption that they do.


Could someone find out and post?

Also, for comparison, what do DISH 722s have?


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> yep, it didn't seem like the "specs" was the problem. they need a hardware prototype box to use as the alpha box.


Hopefully before the hardware goes alpha, there would be sometype of software emulator that they could start coding with?

I just know where I work, we test against the emulator first, as the hardware seems to lag behind a few weeks.


----------



## Ken_F

jacmyoung said:


> But who is? How many of the D* HD DVR subs would consider paying $300 to $500 and another $15/mo. for a TiVo service?
> 
> We are talking about folks who can get several HD DVRs from D* for $99/ea, and pay only $5/mo. for all of them, why would they want to pay another $300 and $3 to $10/mo. for some new D* TiVo box?


 Where is this $300 to $500 coming from? Sears is selling the TivoHD for $199 and Amazon.com is selling it for $250.

The BOM for the DirecTiVo will be significantly less than the TivoHD, assuming it uses the same hardware in the HR23. I don't think there's *any chance* that it sells for more than $200. If it is subsidized by DirecTV with a two-year commitment, like the HR23, then it could be offered for $99.

To get from the TivoHD to the HR23, TiVo would:

*subtract* 2x MicroTune MT2131 tuners
*subtract* 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs (supports analog channels)
*subtract* 2x AMD Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators (used for cable and OTA)
*subtract* 1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC (2x [email protected] encoders with integrated CableCard interface)
*subtract* 1x 32MB DDR400 SDRAM bank for VIXS Xcode
*subtract* 1x Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller (used to support two simultaneous SATA ports)
*subtract* 2x CableCard POD slots
*subtract* PCB

*add* 1x BCM4501 (single chip, dual-tuner satellite receiver with integrated CMOS tuners)
*add* 1x BCM5325 (ethernet switch for second ethernet port)
*add* 16MB EEPROM (assuming TiVo stores their software on flash like DirecTV)
*add* 1x card reader
*add* 40% smaller PCB


----------



## Ken_F

ATARI said:


> Could someone find out and post?
> 
> Also, for comparison, what do DISH 722s have?


The HR22 uses the BCM7401. As far as I know, so does the HR23, though I haven't opened one.

The Dish ViP622/722 use the same dual-chip design as the DirecTV HR20 and discontinued TiVo Series3.


----------



## Doug Brott

presumably and HR23 type receiver for the TiVo software, don't forget the AM21. I don't see any reason why TiVo would not want that addition as well.


----------



## Steve

ATARI said:


> Hopefully before the hardware goes alpha, there would be sometype of software emulator that they could start coding with?
> 
> I just know where I work, we test against the emulator first, as the hardware seems to lag behind a few weeks.


In case you missed, see this post for a different take on what might be happening.  /steve


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> presumably and HR23 type receiver for the TiVo software, don't forget the AM21. I don't see any reason why TiVo would not want that addition as well.


yep, i should have added that AM21 reference earlier.

so it's a TiVo HD code base ... plus multiple years of experience gained on the HR10 ... all running on the HR23/HR24(?) hardware ... with "new" developed code for MPEG4/SWM/AM21 ... plus at least support for DoD, Interactive, and DVR Scheduler.

before the economy challenges, I would have thought that by now they would easily have had the base code running MPEG4 right now just fine on an HR2x. it's been a full 6 months. then spend months getting SWM, AM21 and all the rest running.


----------



## Steve

ATARI said:


> Could someone find out and post?
> 
> Also, for comparison, what do DISH 722s have?


Whoever posted those TiVo HD specs I re-posted seemed to think the 22/23 were BCM7401-based, but I don't know what their source was.

I believe the 722 is based on the BCM7038/7412 chipset. The 7412 is an upgraded version of the MPEG-4 decoder used in the HR20-700 and TiVo Series 3, which is BCM7038/7411-based.

Note: The BCM7401 combines the CPU and decoder into one chip. /steve


----------



## Ken_F

Sixto said:


> before the economy challenges, I would have thought that by now they would easily have had the base code running MPEG4 right now just fine on an HR2x. it's been a full 6 months. then spend months getting SWM, AM21 and all the rest running.


Note the TivoHD code base already supports MPEG4 and VC1. This support was added with the 11.0 software released in December.

Netflix's SD/HD streaming uses VC1 and the TivoHD can now play MP4 files natively without transcoding.


----------



## Sixto

Ken_F said:


> Note the TivoHD code base already supports MPEG4 and VC1. This support was added with the 11.0 software released in December.
> 
> Netflix's SD/HD streaming uses VC1 and the TivoHD can now play MP4 files natively without transcoding.


even more reason why it should already be running in the lab!


----------



## Sixto

would love to play with the base right now ... minus support for the AM21, DoD, and Interactive which they could push off to 2010 ...

TiVo HD functionality on DirecTV with Tivo Glo remote, with cable-like MRV, with TiVo2Go, with DLB, with full TiVo Desktop 2.7 support, all simply running with MPEG4/SWM ... would be a great box to play with for the next 9 months ... they could save the bells and whistles for later ...

and add picture-in-guide and an HD GUI and that wouldn't be so bad a box ... 

and I am now what they call an HR2x fanboy ... but the TiVo box above would be intriguing! 

P.S. was previously a TiVo fanboy ... allegiances change quickly when one technology is cooler then the previous technology


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> yep, i should have added that AM21 reference earlier.
> 
> so it's a TiVo HD code base ... plus multiple years of experience gained on the HR10 ... all running on the HR23/HR24(?) hardware ... with "new" developed code for MPEG4/SWM/AM21 ... plus at least support for DoD, Interactive, and DVR Scheduler.
> 
> before the economy challenges, I would have thought that by now they would easily have had the base code running MPEG4 right now just fine on an HR2x. it's been a full 6 months. then spend months getting SWM, AM21 and all the rest running.


let's not forget DLB!!


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> would love to play with the base right now ... minus support for the AM21, DoD, and Interactive which they could push off to 2010 ...
> 
> TiVo HD functionality on DirecTV with Tivo Glo remote, with cable-like MRV, with TiVo2Go, with DLB, with full TiVo Desktop 2.7 support, all simply running with MPEG4/SWM ... would be a great box to play with for the next 9 months ... they could save the bells and whistles for later ...
> 
> and add picture-in-guide and an HD GUI and that wouldn't be so bad a box ...
> 
> and I am now what they call an HR2x fanboy ... but the TiVo box above would be intriguing!
> 
> P.S. was previously a TiVo fanboy ... allegiances change quickly when one technology is cooler then the previous technology


I should have kept reading...


----------



## Steve

ATARI said:


> let's not forget DLB!!


Well since it's gonna be based on HR2x hardware... no DLB's for you! :lol: /steve

(JOKING!!!!!!)


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> Please carefully re-read your post and my response to it so we can keep the discussion coherent. I was responding to your statement:
> 
> I am talking about $2-$3 month on top of the current DirecTV bill, and no add'l equipment charges.


You somehow believe while traditionally D* charges at least $99/ea for their HRs, often times more, that when the new DirecTiVo HD DVR is out people may get it without upfront cost?


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> You somehow believe while traditionally D* charges at least $99/ea for their HRs, often times more, that when the new DirecTiVo HD DVR is out people may get it without upfront cost?


Methinks Steve was saying you'd get the TiVo version for the same hardware cost as the HR2x version. No additional hardware costs "above" the normal hardware costs.

I could see a small uplift charge for the "hardware" but not a whole lot.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Ken_F said:


> ...I don't think there's *any chance* that it sells for more than $200. If it is subsidized by DirecTV with a two-year commitment, like the HR23, then it could be offered for $99...


If you believe the new DirecTiVo HD DVR will cost less than the current HR DVRs, I will be one of the first inline to get one

But I am not holding my breadth. I would think at least $299 upfront with a contract, maybe $5/mo. extra monthly fee.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> You somehow believe while traditionally D* charges at least $99/ea for their HRs, often times more, that when the new DirecTiVo HD DVR is out people may get it without upfront cost?


It is going to be based on a shipping DirecTV HD DVR platform, so there's no justification for DirecTV to charge more for the hardware because it's running one s/w vs. the other.

Of course they could arbirtrarily charge more for the hardware if they wanted, but (a) DirecTV doesn't typically nickle and dime folks like some other companies who will remain nameless and (b) it seems to me like doing so would not be in the "spirit" of the TiVo agreement, which speaks only to TiVo receiving higher service revenues than previous D*/TiVo agreements. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If you believe the new DirecTiVo HD DVR will cost less than the current HR DVRs, I will be one of the first inline to get one
> 
> But I am not holding my breadth. I would think at least $299 upfront with a contract, maybe $5/mo. extra monthly fee.


You can get HR2x @ Costco .. off the shelf for $169 (lease fee of course). Many folks have reported $99 from DIRECTV directly and the standard pricing is $199. If the hardware is indeed the same what makes you think that $299 up front even makes sense? Are you suggesting that there will be a $100 upcharge in the lease fee because it is TiVo?


----------



## Tallgntlmn

I know I'll probably go down in flames for this one, but what is the point of having one without DLB? Isn't that the major functionality that D* took from us when they split with TiVo when Murdoch took over? I'm not sure but from what I can tell that is the MAJOR difference between my D-TiVo and the HR2x.


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> I know I'll probably go down in flames for this one, but what is the point of having one without DLB? Isn't that the major functionality that D* took from us when they split with TiVo when Murdoch took over? I'm not sure but from what I can tell that is the MAJOR difference between my D-TiVo and the HR2x.


If you're responding to my post, I was JOKING!!!!

I agree. The expectation is that it would have DLB's, just like all the other DirecTiVo's. It would be shocking to me if they delivered one without this capability. /steve


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> You can get HR2x @ Costco .. off the shelf for $169 (lease fee of course). Many folks have reported $99 from DIRECTV directly and the standard pricing is $199. If the hardware is indeed the same what makes you think that $299 up front even makes sense? Are you suggesting that there will be a $100 upcharge in the lease fee because it is TiVo?


Becaue anything new must be truely new to have any competitive edge, take the 922 as an example. A company does not develope a new advanced item just to be like the old ones, and as a result the initial cost is always much higher for the folks to be on the cutting edge.

Think about it, even you has put the earliest date a year from now, do people seriously think at that time DVR built just like the four year old HR DVR will have much appeal? Even D* had said that by 2010 they will come up with a new DVR server that can support multiple client MRV.

That "new" TiVo better do as good or better than that new DVR server or the 922, else it is no wonder why D* is not mentioning it.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Becaue anything new must be truely new to have any competitive edge, take the 922 as an example. A company does not develope a new advanced item just to be like the old ones, and as a result the initial cost is always much higher for the folks to be on the cutting edge.
> 
> Think about it, even you has put the earliest date a year from now, do people seriously think at that time DVR built just like the four year old HR DVR will have much appeal? Even D* had said that by 2010 they will come up with a new DVR server that can support multiple client MRV.


If there is an entirely new DIRECTV platform that supports the HR2x and TiVo, there is a chance you are correct. But will anyone pay $299 for the next round of receivers or expect that the next round cost the same as this time. There would probably need to be a WHOLE lot of extra stuff in any new design to make it worthwhile to move to a higher price and I just don't see that happening yet.

For TiVo to actually make this happen, the really need to be using something that they can get their hands on today. The logical assumption is the HR23 but it is only an assumption. If it's an HR23 .. again, why would it cost more a year from now than it does today?

I think your assumption that the hardware will be much better than what we have today is flawed.



> That "new" TiVo better do as good or better than that new DVR server or the 922, else it is no wonder why D* is not mentioning it.


Perhaps, but the 922 is on DISH Network .. thus requiring a service change to take advantage.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> [...] do people seriously think at that time DVR built just like the four year old HR DVR will have much appeal? [...]


I'd sign-up for an MPEG-4 HR10-250 right now, with the same capabilities as the current HR10, sans networking or any other bells or whistles. /steve


----------



## Sixto

they'll be a new box ... it will most likely run on the next iteration of the HR2x hardware ...

gotta believe that it will be priced the same or lower then today's $199.

that's the *easy* part ...

the real question and real wagers should be ....

will the new TiVo have a new faster broadcom processor ... i say YES.

will it support the TiVo Glo remote ... i say YES (yahoo if it supports 1 button on/off of TV and A/V receiver at the same time).

will it support the currently available TiVo MRV, where a recording can be moved from box to box within the home ... i say YES (but I cross my fingers).

will it have an HD GUI ... i want YES but expect NO.

will it support TiVo2GO ... i want YES but expect NO. This will cause me to be extremely ticked off because the TiVo HD box easily supports this today for all cable programming. Today, you can easily move recordings to a laptop or iPOD for travel.

will it support DLB ... of course .. will be a YES for sure.

will it allow all of the music, video, and photo capabilities of TiVo Desktop 2.7 ... i say YES (hopefully).

will it support NetFlix ... my guess is NO but maybe we'll be surprised with a YES.

will it support picture-in-guide ... my guess is NO but maybe we'll be surprised with a YES. (the Comcast box has picture-in-guide).

if the answer is YES to everything above then the new TiVo will be a serious contender.

for each NO, the odds of mass appeal decrease.


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> I'd sign-up for an MPEG-4 HR10-250 right now, with the same capabilities as the current HR10, sans networking or any other bells or whistles. /steve


Then you are already asking for much more than what we actually have now Imagine a year from now, are you sure you would not want more, if for example everyone is talking about the 922 features?


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> If there is an entirely new DIRECTV platform that supports the HR2x and TiVo, there is a chance you are correct. But will anyone pay $299 for the next round of receivers or expect that the next round cost the same as this time. There would probably need to be a WHOLE lot of extra stuff in any new design to make it worthwhile to move to a higher price and I just don't see that happening yet.
> 
> For TiVo to actually make this happen, the really need to be using something that they can get their hands on today. The logical assumption is the HR23 but it is only an assumption. If it's an HR23 .. again, why would it cost more a year from now than it does today?
> 
> I think your assumption that the hardware will be much better than what we have today is flawed.
> 
> Perhaps, but the 922 is on DISH Network .. thus requiring a service change to take advantage.


That is the point, if the new DVR will not come to life until over a year from now, does it even make sense to make it only like the 4-year-old DVR we have?

I don't know, I personally have rarely see a product slated to be available over a year from now and called "new", not only that, will cost "significantly more" per month, to not to have many new features and new power.


----------



## TMar

If they are an option then fine, but the day they phase out D*'s boxes and the only other choice is Tivo I'll cancel my service. Had Tivo and hated it, got a Replay and loved them. D*'s boxes are the closest thing to a Replay, which was the best DVR interface ever made.


----------



## bonscott87

Sixto said:


> will it support the currently available TiVo MRV, where a recording can be moved from box to box within the home ... i say YES (but I cross my fingers).


I say highly unlikely. It has been stated that this new DirecTivo will work with the current DirecTV networking infrastructure. Thus it will support whatever the DirecTV MRV is. DirecTV would certainly want *all* their receivers to talk to each other, Tivo or not.



> will it have an HD GUI ... i want YES but expect NO.


Maybe.



> will it support TiVo2GO ... i want YES but expect NO. This will cause me to be extremely ticked off because the TiVo HD box easily supports this today for all cable programming. Today, you can easily move recordings to a laptop or iPOD for travel.


I say NO. Again, not part of the DirecTV infrastructure.



> will it support DLB ... of course .. will be a YES for sure.


I'd say most likely YES.



> will it allow all of the music, video, and photo capabilities of TiVo Desktop 2.7 ... i say YES (hopefully).


I say NO. Once again Tivo desktop is not part of the DirecTV infrastructure. I'm sure it will support the DirecTV media share and VOD though.



> will it support NetFlix ... my guess is NO but maybe we'll be surprised with a YES.


NO. Not unless DirecTV supports it. Besides, it's easy enough to get Netflix to the DirecTV DVRs today so probably not.



> will it support picture-in-guide ... my guess is NO but maybe we'll be surprised with a YES. (the Comcast box has picture-in-guide).


YES. Virtually every single set top box out there from cable, fiber and sat has picture in guide. The Tivo's, until the Comcast box, were the only ones that didn't do it.



> if the answer is YES to everything above then the new TiVo will be a serious contender.
> 
> for each NO, the odds of mass appeal decrease.


Well, the odds of mass appeal are low anyway no matter how many "YES" you have. The general user will be confused by any feature set comparison and if it costs more, even just $5, they will just go with whatever is cheapest. That has been the case for 10 years and won't change any time soon.


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> Well, the odds of mass appeal are low anyway no matter how many "YES" you have. The general user will be confused by any feature set comparison and if it costs more, even just $5, they will just go with whatever is cheapest. That has been the case for 10 years and won't change any time soon.


If NO to TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go, TiVo Desktop, and Netflix then "yawn" and the port is a waste of time.


----------



## t_h

It'd be pretty ridiculous for them to cut off many of the Tivo features or to charge an exhorbitant price for it. Why even bother making something that nobody will buy?

If its a hacked off product at a stupid price, I'll just buy a Tivo HD and hook it up to cable. So would a lot of other people.


----------



## vikingguy

Sixto said:


> If NO to TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go, TiVo Desktop, and Netflix then "yawn" and the port is a waste of time.


I agree if I am going to pay extra I want all the TIVO features. Now if the pricing is the same I can live with stripped down features for reliability of the TIVO software.


----------



## Jhon69

TMar said:


> If they are an option then fine, but the day they phase out D*'s boxes and the only other choice is Tivo I'll cancel my service. Had Tivo and hated it, got a Replay and loved them. D*'s boxes are the closest thing to a Replay, which was the best DVR interface ever made.


DirecTV will offer both HDDVRs.


----------



## Ken_F

jacmyoung said:


> That is the point, if the new DVR will not come to life until over a year from now, does it even make sense to make it only like the 4-year-old DVR we have?
> 
> I don't know, I personally have rarely see a product slated to be available over a year from now and called "new", not only that, will cost "significantly more" per month, to not to have many new features and new power.


Each year, technology improves to provide greater capability / functionality at an equal or lower price. There's no reason to expect the next iteration of the DirecTV DVR platform to be any different. Dish Network and DirecTV order their parts from the same distributors.

The Broadcom BCM7405 is now shipping in volume. The BCM7405 is an enhanced version of the BCM7401/BCM7403 with:


 Dual-core 400MHz MIPS32e rated at 1100 DMIPS
vs BCM7401's single-core 300MHz MIPS32e rated at 450 DMIPS

 DDR2-800 memory controller
vs BCM7401's DDR400 memory controller

 Secondary decoder for PIP display
vs BCM7401's single decoder

 Improved 2D graphics performance

 Dual SATA interfaces
vs BCM7401's single SATA interface

 Dual ethernet MACs with integrated PHY
vs BCM7401's single ethernet MAC

 HDMI 1.3
vs BCM7401's HDMI 1.1

 Decoder support for DIVX 3.x/4.x/5.x/6.x

 Support for Adobe Flash Lite 3.0 software
Volume pricing on this part is comparable to the price of the BCM7401 in early 2008. The first shipping product to incorporate this chip is the 2Wire MediaPoint Player, also known as the Blockbuster STB. It's priced at $99 with $50 worth of free movies.

All of Broadcom's BCM74xx SoCs are backward compatible, for the most part. Some issues are to be expected, but that's why these SoCs sample well before they ever show up in a shipping DVR.

Don't be surprised to see this SoC in the Dish ViP921...and the next version of the DirecTV DVR platform.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> If NO to TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go, TiVo Desktop, and Netflix then "yawn" and the port is a waste of time.





t_h said:


> It'd be pretty ridiculous for them to cut off many of the Tivo features or to charge an exhorbitant price for it. Why even bother making something that nobody will buy?
> 
> If its a hacked off product at a stupid price, I'll just buy a Tivo HD and hook it up to cable. So would a lot of other people.





vikingguy said:


> I agree if I am going to pay extra I want all the TIVO features. Now if the pricing is the same I can live with stripped down features for reliability of the TIVO software.


Perhaps, just perhaps some of these features will actually be improved by the DIRECTV and TiVo relationship.

Mind you I do not have any whispers on this project, but I can guess out loud sometimes.

I think Bonscott87's analysis is, as always, very good. I wonder tho if TiVo might be willing to change some of their features, improving them to the DIRECTV infrastructure, i.e. DLNA. That would make TiVo's products better, fit within the DIRECTV infrastructure, and make more of the features available to warrant the premium price (that some might be willing to pay)?

Thinking out loud,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Ken_F said:


> Each year, technology improves to provide greater capability / functionality at an equal or lower price ...


you're a good guy Ken_F ... very informative posts ... good stuff ... gotta remember to save your posts ... very nice


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Perhaps, just perhaps some of these features will actually be improved by the DIRECTV and TiVo relationship.


IMHO ... TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go, TiVo Desktop (Music/Video/Photo), and TiVo Netflix are A+ right now ... IMHO.

Add the TiVo Glo, HD GUI, DLB, all on a BCM7405 processor and you have a hot box.

This all from a HR2x convert/believer. 

I'd trade away DLNA to allow recording movement (TiVo MRV). TiVo2Go is just flawless, you can take any recording on the road with you (awesome for long flights). TiVo Desktop is flawless and easy to use for Joe/Jane Doe (the photo app is a family favorite). And according to Tom Rogers the NetFlix app is getting rave reviews. The TiVo Glo remote is also a family favorite with tactile feedback and concurrent TV & A/V On/Off. And the return of DLB would be a favorite as well. DLB would have been a major savior tonight to catch the last 5 minutes of Idol that ran late.

And would need most ALL of the above or I'm not sure I'd switch.

Again, IMHO.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> If you're responding to my post, I was JOKING!!!!


Oh I know man. I was seemingly asking if we'd get a full TiVo or a hack job like the old D-TiVo where the only obviou thing it has over the HR2x is DLB. I would get it just for that. Remember back when the D-TiVo came out, virtually no one had DVRs. Now you'd be hard pressed to find a cable system without them and lord knows Dish and D* have them. 


Sixto said:


> If NO to TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go, TiVo Desktop, and Netflix then "yawn" and the port is a waste of time.


Exacta-mundo. At that point it's about fulfilling contracts and nothing more.


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> It shouldn't be anywhere near as difficult as starting from scratch, and they've already had 6 months to work on it. /steve


Are we talking about the same TiVo that has been working feverishly on a cable DVR for going on three years?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

harsh said:


> Are we talking about the same TiVo that has been working feverishly on a cable DVR for going on three years?


Unless you know of another TiVo, then yes it's the very same TiVo.


----------



## wingrider01

Steve said:


> It is going to be based on a shipping DirecTV HD DVR platform, so there's no justification for DirecTV to charge more for the hardware because it's running one s/w vs. the other.
> 
> Of course they could arbirtrarily charge more for the hardware if they wanted, but (a) DirecTV doesn't typically nickle and dime folks like some other companies who will remain nameless and (b) it seems to me like doing so would not be in the "spirit" of the TiVo agreement, which speaks only to TiVo receiving higher service revenues than previous D*/TiVo agreements. /steve


The justification would be the additional work and coding required to push updates to specific boxes, since the TIVO overlay is touted as a premium service and the stock HR2X code will be the standard service and will still be the primaryt device sent out unless the end user specificly requests a TIVO software based unit.


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> Are we talking about the same TiVo that has been working feverishly on a cable DVR for going on three years?


If you've never programmed, you may not be aware of the degree of difficulty difference between a port vs. a complete Java/middleware re-write from scratch offering the same TiVo functionality and experience. /steve


----------



## jacmyoung

Ken_F said:


> Each year, technology improves to provide greater capability / functionality at an equal or lower price. There's no reason to expect the next iteration of the DirecTV DVR platform to be any different. Dish Network and DirecTV order their parts from the same distributors.
> 
> The Broadcom BCM7405 is now shipping in volume. The BCM7405 is an enhanced version of the BCM7401/BCM7403 with:
> 
> 
> Dual-core 400MHz MIPS32e rated at 1100 DMIPS
> vs BCM7401's single-core 300MHz MIPS32e rated at 450 DMIPS
> 
> DDR2-800 memory controller
> vs BCM7401's DDR400 memory controller
> 
> Secondary decoder for PIP display
> vs BCM7401's single decoder
> 
> Improved 2D graphics performance
> 
> Dual SATA interfaces
> vs BCM7401's single SATA interface
> 
> Dual ethernet MACs with integrated PHY
> vs BCM7401's single ethernet MAC
> 
> HDMI 1.3
> vs BCM7401's HDMI 1.1
> 
> Decoder support for DIVX 3.x/4.x/5.x/6.x
> 
> Support for Adobe Flash Lite 3.0 software
> Volume pricing on this part is comparable to the price of the BCM7401 in early 2008. The first shipping product to incorporate this chip is the 2Wire MediaPoint Player, also known as the Blockbuster STB. It's priced at $99 with $50 worth of free movies.
> 
> All of Broadcom's BCM74xx SoCs are backward compatible, for the most part. Some issues are to be expected, but that's why these SoCs sample well before they ever show up in a shipping DVR.
> 
> Don't be surprised to see this SoC in the Dish ViP921...and the next version of the DirecTV DVR platform.


You can say all you want, I only need to point out one thing, TiVo made a big point of the "significant higher fees" DirecTV must pay TiVo for such new DVR.

In today's financial world, logic is the last thing one might rely on. Not to mention that all your above items are speculation, is there official confirmation that the new HDDVR will use exactly the same hardware as the 4-year-old HRs?

I can come up with five things already without even much thinking, to make it more appealing yet cost more, a much much bigger harddrive, many more tuners than just two, something similar to Sling built in for remote internet playing, built in coax to ethernet, and built in wireless network capability with equally high speed capacity so no hard-wiring is necessary, please don't tell me you don't care for those.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> You can say all you want, I only need to point out one thing, TiVo made a big point of the "significant higher fees" DirecTV must pay TiVo for such new DVR.


TiVo only made $1/per sub the first time around .. $5/per sub would actually constitute "significantly higher fees" and is in line with what we've been suggesting.



jacmyoung said:


> In today's financial world, logic is the last thing one might rely on. Not to mention that all your above items are speculation, is there official confirmation that the new HDDVR will use exactly the same hardware as the 4-year-old HRs?
> 
> I can come up with five things already without even much thinking, to make it more appealing yet cost more, a much much bigger harddrive, many more tuners than just two, something similar to Sling built in for remote internet playing, built in coax to ethernet, and built in wireless network capability with equally high speed capacity so no hard-wiring is necessary, please don't tell me you don't care for those.


Bigger HDD? The HR23-700 already has 500GB .. Maybe next round will be larger, but maybe not .. That's still 100 hours of MPEG4 HD (more if TiVo reserves less than 100GB)

More tuners .. won't happen

Sling .. won't happen

Coax to Ethernet .. unknown

built in wireless .. won't happen


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> You can say all you want, I only need to point out one thing, TiVo made a big point of the "significant higher fees" DirecTV must pay TiVo for such new DVR.


The TiVo fees are monthly subscriber fees and have nothing to do with the hardware, which DirecTV is footing the bill for.

Speaking for myself, I wish you would please try to constructively contribute to this thread, like *Ken F*, instead of seeding it with unsubstantiated theories or misinformation, apparently intended to provoke responses. /steve


----------



## Steve

Ken_F said:


> Don't be surprised to see this SoC in the Dish ViP921...and the next version of the DirecTV DVR platform.


Actually, I'm guessing Dish went the whole 9-yards with the 922 and is actually using the top of the line BCM7420. I say this, because I believe it's the only chip that has "low RF" support, which is how they may be able to provide 2-way communication with the new remote, which can store back-ups of certain system setup information.

Based on what I could find on the web, none of the other BCM CPU's of this type seem to offer this capability. /steve


----------



## harsh

wingrider01 said:


> The justification would be the additional work and coding required to push updates to specific boxes, since the TIVO overlay is touted as a premium service and the stock HR2X code will be the standard service and will still be the primaryt device sent out unless the end user specificly requests a TIVO software based unit.


TiVo's code is their own and as long as it doesn't clash with DIRECTV's update protocol, they're golden. I suppose that it might even be Internet based in an effort to get users to make other TiVo services available. DIRECTV must juggle nine or more versions currently.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo only made $1/per sub the first time around .. $5/per sub would actually constitute "significantly higher fees" and is in line with what we've been suggesting.
> 
> Bigger HDD? The HR23-700 already has 500GB .. Maybe next round will be larger, but maybe not .. That's still 100 hours of MPEG4 HD (more if TiVo reserves less than 100GB)
> 
> More tuners .. won't happen
> 
> Sling .. won't happen
> 
> Coax to Ethernet .. unknown
> 
> built in wireless .. won't happen


$1 is about how much D* pays TiVo for the current DirecTiVo DVRs which D* is dropping them like flies.

I don't think the fee for the new DVR will be $5, maybe $2, but if it is indeed $5, I think D* will charge the sub more than $5, maybe up to $10.

How many people will be willing to pay another $5 to $10/mo. if as you said none of the above will happen?

If I were DirecTV, I would seriously reconsider this plan.

Again, one must think one year from now. Are you sure a 2TB drive will not be helpful so all the Netflix HD movies can be automatically downloaded?


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> I say this, because I believe it's the only chip that has "low RF" support, which is how they may be able to provide 2-way communication with the new remote, which can store back-ups of certain system setup information.


The existing HD DVRs from both DIRECTV and DISH Network support RF remotes and all DISH Network receivers support IR blasting so why would this be significantly different?

I wouldn't go so far as to characterize the communications as being bidirectional as the only time the receiver yells at the remote is to transmit new programming.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> $1 is about how much D* pays TiVo for the current DirecTiVo DVRs which D* is dropping them like flies.
> 
> I don't think the fee for the new DVR will be $5, maybe $2, but if it is indeed $5, I think D* will charge the sub more than $5, maybe up to $10.
> 
> How many people will be willing to pay another $5 to $10/mo. if as you said none of the above will happen?


beats me .. I won't be one of those people



> If I were DirecTV, I would seriously reconsider this plan.


Why? DIRECTV still gets the sub and the lease fee on the hardware? TiVo is footing the bill for the other stuff (except for marketing). It seems to me there will be relatively little risk from DIRECTV's side .. besides, they've already agreed at this point. It's not like DIRECTV can come back at say "oops."



> Again, one must think one year from now. Are you sure a 2TB drive will not be helpful so all the Netflix HD movies can be automatically downloaded?


Again, I hedged on the HDD, but I still believe that most people will be 100% satisfied with the 100-hour 500GB HDD which certainly must cost a lot less than the brand new 2TB HDDs that are available.


----------



## Curtis0620

jacmyoung said:


> $1 is about how much D* pays TiVo for the current DirecTiVo DVRs which D* is dropping them like flies.
> 
> I don't think the fee for the new DVR will be $5, maybe $2, but if it is indeed $5, I think D* will charge the sub more than $5, maybe up to $10.
> 
> How many people will be willing to pay another $5 to $10/mo. if as you said none of the above will happen?
> 
> If I were DirecTV, I would seriously reconsider this plan.
> 
> Again, one must think one year from now. Are you sure a 2TB drive will not be helpful so all the Netflix HD movies can be automatically downloaded?


DISH will shortly be paying TiVo at least $2 per DVR (after the judge rules in favor of TiVo).


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to characterize the communications as being bidirectional as the only time the receiver yells at the remote is to transmit new programming.


What!? You say "the receiver yells at the remote" (as in communicates) and clearly the remote talks to the receiver. Yet in the same sentence you don't call this two-way communication bidirectional? Isn't that the definition of bidirectional? It doesn't matter if it's 1 bit or a million bits .. if it goes both ways it goes both ways :scratchin.


----------



## Doug Brott

Curtis0620 said:


> DISH will shortly be paying TiVo at least $2 per DVR (after the judge rules in favor of TiVo).


*<MOD HAT>*

Curtis, this is not directed just at you, but at everyone ..

This thread is about the DIRECTiVo .. There will be no discussion of the TiVo v. Echostar case in this thread .. If there are any posts on the Court Case, they will be deleted.

If you would like to discuss the the TiVo v. Echostar case, please use the appropriate thread in the DISH forums:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=152587

Thank You

*</Mod Hat>*


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> What!? You say "the receiver yells at the remote" (as in communicates) and clearly the remote talks to the receiver. Yet in the same sentence you don't call this two-way communication bidirectional? Isn't that the definition of bidirectional? It doesn't matter if it's 1 bit or a million bits .. if it goes both ways it goes both ways :scratchin.


Maybe that's how it works with the Dish receivers...but not the Direct ones...


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> What!? You say "the receiver yells at the remote" (as in communicates) and clearly the remote talks to the receiver. Yet in the same sentence you don't call this two-way communication bidirectional? Isn't that the definition of bidirectional? It doesn't matter if it's 1 bit or a million bits .. if it goes both ways it goes both ways :scratchin.


Plus I could swear I read somewhere that the Dish remote could also back up your "timers" (their name for Series Links/Season's Passes), but for the life of me I can't find it. It could have been a report from someone at CES, but since it's not mentioned in the press release, maybe I just misunderstood what I thought I read. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> Plus I could swear I read somewhere that the Dish remote could also back up your "timers" (their name for Series Links/Season's Passes), but for the life of me I can't find it. It could have been a report from someone at CES, but since it's not mentioned in the press release, maybe I just misunderstood what I read. /steve


Yes .. the new 922 will store this and I believe all of your setting on the remote so that if you have to send back your receiver, the new one will read these settings a go back to the way you expect it (sans any recorded programming of course).


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> beats me .. I won't be one of those people...


But if you yourself do not see much point in this plan, why is it that DirecTV may not think the same, that this plan does not make much sense, at least not worth the extra $5 D* must pay TiVo?

A lot of what had been speculated by those who love TiVo is based on the mentality that TiVo is the center of the universe, that the mere "TiVo" name on the box is worth the extra $13/mo. for a standalone TiVo or $5 to $10/mo. on a DirecTiVo.

The question is does DirecTV think the same? Evidence do not support it. DirecTV has been converting DirecTiVo subs to their own HR subs in such a pace that by the same time next year there might not be many DirecTiVo accounts left to even give a damn.

So the logical question is, then why did D* make that agreement? Why bother?

One of the main reasons is to avoid being sued by TiVo, this is not even implied, rather clearly stated in the very agreement itself.

And of course again the timing of the press release, the complete silence after that, I will simply not repeat myself.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> But if you yourself do not see much point in this plan, why is it that DirecTV may not think the same, that this plan does not make much sense, at least not worth the extra $5 D* must pay TiVo?
> 
> A lot of what had been speculated by those who love TiVo is based on the mentality that TiVo is the center of the universe, that the mere "TiVo" name on the box is worth the extra $13/mo. for a standalone TiVo or $5 to $10/mo. on a DirecTiVo.
> 
> The question is does DirecTV think the same? Evidence do not support it. DirecTV has been converting DirecTiVo subs to their own HR subs in such a pace that by the same time next year there might not be many DirecTiVo accounts left to even give a damn.


Hey, don't make me out to be more important than I am .. Just because I'm not going to get a TiVo doesn't mean no one will. Personally I don't think a lot of people will, but there will be those that really want a new TiVo. Many of those will want it for free but likely won't get it for that price. In truth we don't know how much it will cost but the general speculation is that there will be a $5/sub above and beyond any other fees that would apply. TiVo may receive up to 100% of this upcharge as in reality it's just a pass-through charge and DIRECTV still gets the programming fees from the subscriber.



> So the logical question is, then why did D* make that agreement? Why bother?
> 
> One of the main reasons is to avoid being sued by TiVo, this is not even implied, rather clearly stated in the very agreement itself.
> 
> And of course again the timing of the press release, the complete silence after that, I will simply not repeat myself.


You could very well be right .. DIRECTV may have simply made this agreement to keep the TiVo/DIRECTV cross-licensing agreements in check ..

BTW, the cross-licensing also implies that DIRECTV will not sue TiVo either so it works both ways. It was a negotiated agreement and this is one of the items that came out of that negotiation.

I still say the risk is small for DIRECTV .. It give people a choice and DIRECTV still gets the programming fees and lease fees on the receiver. TiVo is taking the greater risk by committing their Engineering resources to the port. It may or may not pay off for them.


----------



## bonscott87

Tallgntlmn said:


> At that point it's about fulfilling contracts and nothing more.


That's all I think it is anyway.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> ...BTW, the cross-licensing also implies that DIRECTV will not sue TiVo either so it works both ways. ...


I don't see any reason why D* will bother to sue TiVo, it cost a lot just to sue. D* does not rely on TiVo to do business.

The same cannot be said the other way around at all.


----------



## wingrider01

Steve said:


> The TiVo fees are monthly subscriber fees and have nothing to do with the hardware, which DirecTV is footing the bill for.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I wish you would please try to constructively contribute to this thread, like *Ken F*, instead of seeding it with unsubstantiated theories or misinformation, apparently intended to provoke responses. /steve


Sorry, if you believe that Directv is going to foot the additional cost of the TIVO fees without passing them on to the end users, I have a piece of land in arizona with ocean front property and a bridge I will sell you. That would be stupid business practices and the stock holders would pitch a fit.

What would be even stupider is if they try to pass the increased costs onto the general user that does not want nor desire the TIVO interface. as mentioned in the original release, the TIVO based unit will be considered a premium service and will be charged as such, default dvr will be the Directv software based unit. The original release stated that the Directv based box will be the standard shipped to new customers.


----------



## Curtis0620

Doug Brott said:


> *<MOD HAT>*
> 
> Curtis, this is not directed just at you, but at everyone ..
> 
> This thread is about the DIRECTiVo .. There will be no discussion of the TiVo v. Echostar case in this thread .. If there are any posts on the Court Case, they will be deleted.
> 
> If you would like to discuss the the TiVo v. Echostar case, please use the appropriate thread in the DISH forums:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=152587
> 
> Thank You
> 
> *</Mod Hat>*


Sorry, I for one would welcome a new HD DirecTiVo. Was always more user friendly for the non-tech types.


----------



## bonscott87

jacmyoung said:


> But if you yourself do not see much point in this plan, why is it that DirecTV may not think the same, that this plan does not make much sense, at least not worth the extra $5 D* must pay TiVo?
> 
> A lot of what had been speculated by those who love TiVo is based on the mentality that TiVo is the center of the universe, that the mere "TiVo" name on the box is worth the extra $13/mo. for a standalone TiVo or $5 to $10/mo. on a DirecTiVo.
> 
> The question is does DirecTV think the same? Evidence do not support it. DirecTV has been converting DirecTiVo subs to their own HR subs in such a pace that by the same time next year there might not be many DirecTiVo accounts left to even give a damn.
> 
> So the logical question is, then why did D* make that agreement? Why bother?
> 
> One of the main reasons is to avoid being sued by TiVo, this is not even implied, rather clearly stated in the very agreement itself.
> 
> And of course again the timing of the press release, the complete silence after that, I will simply not repeat myself.


I'm sure DirecTV thinks the same because the facts have backed it up over the past half decade. People, the general public, the "unwashed masses" do not see any value in Tivo as a brand, at least not enough to pay more. Certainly some do, but most do not. Thus why Tivo once owned the DVR market, now they have less then 10% of the market and shrinking by the day.

So why bother doing the agreement? Cheaper (for both) to have the agreement then it is to fight a lawsuit, even if they were to win it. And as mentioned there is very little risk on the part of DirecTV here. DirecTV, in my opinion, finally said to Tivo "ok fine, you think Tivo is all that then we'll give you the subscriber fee you want, but we're going to pass it all on to the customer with a little extra for ourselves of course. Now prove you are the best." If this new DirecTivo is a hit it's a win for DirecTV and Tivo. If it's a failure or just mediocre on the uptake then it's no skin off DirecTV's back, they keep from being sued for another decade along with more subs paying $80+ a month and it's a loss for Tivo (although anything is better then they have now which is nothing but declining subs).

This whole deal is basically a win all around for DirecTV no matter if they sell 5 million boxes or 500 boxes. The risk is all on Tivo here and they now have their chance to prove that people will indeed pay more for the Tivo brand. History has shown that people in general will not and I personally believe there will be some interest, perhaps a small success, but in general it's not going to take over the world unless DirecTV decides to abandon their own DVR plans such as the whole home DVR server and such.

As for why DirecTV has been silent, the reason is above. DirecTV frankly doesn't care that much about it at this time. They've got bigger things to work on and their DVR is a success with over 40% of the subs now having one, pushing 50% they said the last conference call. Churn is down, sub numbers are up. DirecTV hasn't offered a Tivo product *in years* and people have not left in droves because of it. Plus this past quarter had record sub growth despite being the first quarter that the first HR20 subs came off commitments. 2-3 times more people have their branded DVR now then ever had the DirecTivo.

All that said competition is good and I hope Tivo can come out with a product and the economy doesn't kill the project. But history and the facts are just not on the side of the people that think Tivo is somehow going to "save" DirecTV with this receiver or somehow overtake the in house DVR. Just not going to happen. But having an option is always good for the consumer, usually.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I don't see any reason why D* will bother to sue TiVo, it cost a lot just to sue. D* does not rely on TiVo to do business.
> 
> The same cannot be said the other way around at all.


DIRECTV has always been very conservative with respect to DRM .. I don't see this arrangement as being any different in concept. Basically DIRECTV has acknowledged that TiVo has some licensing rights in this area and as it turns out, TiVo has acknowledged that DIRECTV has some licensing rights in this area (via Replay Patents) .. they negotiated a contract for cross-licensing so that neither party had to worry about litigation .. DIRECTV still has low risk .. meaning if the TiVo project either succeeds or fails, DIRECTV isn't really exposed .. yet as part of the arrangement, DIRECTV doesn't have to worry about getting sued by TiVo.


----------



## Steve

wingrider01 said:


> Sorry, if you believe that Directv is going to foot the additional cost of the TIVO fees without passing them on to the end users, I have a piece of land in arizona with ocean front property and a bridge I will sell you. That would be stupid business practices and the stock holders would pitch a fit.


You missed my point. We were talking about hardware, not monthly TiVo software service fees, which I agree should be passed on to the users who elect TiVo service. *TiVo has agreed to port their software to a standard Direct DVR broadband box that would otherwise be shipping with DirecTV software on it, so there are no added hardware costs for DirecTV to pass along. */steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

I can say I will be first in line for a TiVo depending on the feature set. If I get DLB but lose the other cool stuff the HR has, probably not. If I do not get DLB, DEFINITELY not. If I get Netflix, DLB, and media sharing, where do I sign up? It depends on a lot of things but the combination of feature sets is what will make my decision, not only the fee that may or may not be attached.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tallgntlmn said:


> I can say I will be first in line for a TiVo depending on the feature set. If I get DLB but lose the other cool stuff the HR has, probably not. If I do not get DLB, DEFINITELY not. If I get Netflix, DLB, and media sharing, where do I sign up? It depends on a lot of things but the combination of feature sets is what will make my decision, not only the fee that may or may not be attached.


What would you choose if DLB were to show up on the HR2x before the TiVo became available?


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> [...] If I get Netflix, DLB, and media sharing, where do I sign up? [...]





Doug Brott said:


> What would you choose if DLB were to show up on the HR2x before the TiVo became available?


And in case you missed, are you aware you can get Netflix on the HR2x today, via media sharing and Playon? If you already have a Netflix account that offers on-line downloads, you can get a free 30-day trial of the Playon software here. After that, the app is $40. /steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Doug Brott said:


> What would you choose if DLB were to show up on the HR2x before the TiVo became available?


Well, hmmm. Since that's the feature I want, it would have to have something more. Maybe like TiVo2Go where I can burn to DVD or put on my CrackBerry. I highly doubt D* would implement that though. 


Steve said:


> And in case you missed, are you aware you can get Netflix on the HR2x today, via media sharing


I had no idea. Thanks for that info. Does Playon allow DD5.1 to be heard? I am still learning about the HR2x. Granted the one missing feature has me slighted against it.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tallgntlmn said:


> Well, hmmm. Since that's the feature I want, it would have to have something more. Maybe like TiVo2Go where I can burn to DVD or put on my CrackBerry. I highly doubt D* would implement that though.


Huh? TiVo2Go and burn to DVD aren't remotely related to DLB :scratchin


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Huh? TiVo2Go and burn to DVD aren't remotely related to DLB :scratchin


I could be wrong, but I think he's saying if DLB were available on the HR's, than it would take even more advanced features, like TiVo2Go, to make him want to switch from an HR.  /steve


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> Does Playon allow DD5.1 to be heard? I am still learning about the HR2x. Granted the one missing feature has me slighted against it.


I don't use it myself, but lots of Playon discussion here. /steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> I could be wrong, but I think he's saying if DLB were available on the HR's, than it would take even more advanced features, like TiVo2Go, to make him want to switch from an HR.  /steve


Yes, that is what I meant to say. If DLB came tomorrow, then something more advanced and cooler than anything the HR2x's have now would be needed on the TiVo receiver to make me switch and possibly pay more.


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> What would you choose if DLB were to show up on the HR2x before the TiVo became available?


Come on we all know that will never ever happen


----------



## ChrisMinCT

I'll be looking to replace my HR20s this fall. They'll be 3 years old, and that's when I look to replace. For me, given the extrordinarily frustrating last 2.5 years I've had with D* DVRs and 6 years of great experience with DirecTivos before that, its a pretty simple choice. But I will compare price and features before pulling the trigger. But my default is simple - Tivo makes DVRs. D* provides TV service. Use each vendor for what they do to make money, because that's where their respective resources will be deployed and that's what they will invest in moving forward.


----------



## Ken_F

Steve said:


> Actually, I'm guessing Dish went the whole 9-yards with the 922 and is actually using the top of the line BCM7420. I say this, because I believe it's the only chip that has "low RF" support, which is how they may be able to provide 2-way communication with the new remote, which can store back-ups of certain system setup information.
> 
> Based on what I could find on the web, none of the other BCM CPU's of this type seem to offer this capability. /steve


The ViP922 won't use the BCM7410 or BCM7420 if it ships this spring or summer, as announced by Dish Network. The BCM7410 and BCM7420 are 45nm chips and won't be produced in bulk until this fall, at the earliest. I was told not to expect those SoCs in any product this year.

I suggested the BCM7405 because it and the BCM7400 are the only next-generation parts from Broadcom that are actually shipping in volume *today*. If Dish Network plans to offer the ViP722 this spring, then they've got to start assembling the units fairly soon, if not already.

There's also the remote possibility that Dish Network could abandon the Broadcom platform, which is linked to the TiVo infringement suit. Many were surprised to find that Dish Network used the low-cost STMicroelectronics STi7109 in the DTVPal DVR. Coincidentally, STMicroelectronics recently began shipping the STM7200, which is one of the very few alternatives to the BCM7400/BCM7405.


----------



## Sixto

Ken_F said:


> The ViP922 won't use the BCM7410 or BCM7420 if it ships this spring or summer, as announced by Dish Network. The BCM7410 and BCM7420 are 45nm chips and won't be produced in bulk until this fall, at the earliest. I was told not to expect those SoCs in any product this year.
> 
> I suggested the BCM7405 because it and the BCM7400 are the only next-generation parts from Broadcom that are actually shipping in volume *today*. If Dish Network plans to offer the ViP722 this spring, then they've got to start assembling the units fairly soon, if not already.
> 
> There's also the remote possibility that Dish Network could abandon the Broadcom platform, which is linked to the TiVo infringement suit. Many were surprised to find that Dish Network used the low-cost STMicroelectronics STi7109 in the DTVPal DVR. Coincidentally, STMicroelectronics recently began shipping the STM7200, which is one of the very few alternatives to the BCM7400/BCM7405.


just one great post after another ... cool stuff. thx!


----------



## loudo

I never cared for the TIVO :up: or :down:. Don't miss it on my HR20-700.


----------



## Sixto

TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go, and TiVo Desktop (Music/Video/Photos) have all been released and available for quite some time and very mature features. Actually, they seem fairly idiot proof and rock solid.

For TiVo MRV ... is the concern DRM? ... or just the TiVo/HR2x interoperability. Having TiVo just talk to other TiVo's seems fine. Now, if in addition they'd also support DLNA then rolling that out in phase-2 seems fine. Why would DirecTV be concerned with moving recordings around the home when TiVo and the cable industry are not concerned today?

For TiVo2Go ... again, is the concern DRM? ... then why isn't it a concern in the cable environment. TiVo not only provides a simple application to move the recordings but they also provide the tools to convert the recordings for playback on many popular mobile products like the iPod and PSP. When heading out on a trip, you can move a 1-hour SD recording to a laptop in less then 10 minutes. 

For TiVo Desktop (Music/Video/Photos) ... I've seen very non-technical folks setup the Desktop app in minutes to share media. No need to worry about any third party products. It's simple, free, and works well. As I've mention before, especially appreciate the photo application. It's in HD and is super quick.

Would be VERY disappointed if these 3 features are missing from the DirecTV implementation.

P.S. While I'm a diehard DirecTV and HR2x supporter, I continue to have a networked TiVo Series3 attached to basic cable and very familiar with TiVo2Go and TiVo Desktop. Use TiVo2Go before every trip and Tivo Desktop for all photo viewing in the home theater.

Edit: And yes, I've thought long and hard about disconnecting that cable service, those cablecards, and that $12.95/month TiVo charge but can't live without TiVo2Go ... and it's also a good backup in case there's ever a satellite glitch. So being selfish here, a new DirecTV TiVo that supports TiVo2Go would actually save this household $. Only need one!


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Sixto said:


> Would be VERY disappointed if these 3 features are missing from the DirecTV implementation.


Unfortunately there is already precedent for them not being put in. The old D-TiVo's that were Series 2 are that. A friend of mine has a Series 2 SA and she asked me once "why don't you just move the show to your computer like I do?" I had to tell her "because D* neutered that functionality out of mine." They did it before, what's to say they won't again? Sorry to be the negative one. That's just how I see it.


----------



## Sixto

Tallgntlmn said:


> Unfortunately there is already precedent for them not being put in.


yes, fully expecting worst case.

real simple today ... if I ever want a recording to carry around, that's what the Series3 is for. If it's on cable, it can be made mobile ... laptop, iPod, or Blackberry. works flawlessly.


----------



## ATARI

loudo said:


> I never cared for the TIVO :up: or :down:. Don't miss it on my HR20-700.


That was the first thing I disabled.


----------



## Doug Brott

loudo said:


> I never cared for the TIVO :up: or :down:. Don't miss it on my HR20-700.


What are you suggesting?


----------



## loudo

Doug Brott said:


> What are you suggesting?


Just noting that it was a feature on the HR10-250 that I didn't care for, it messed things up more than it helped, and if it is not on the new unit it won't bother me. :nono2:


----------



## spunkyvision

> Just noting that it was a feature on the HR10-250 that I didn't care for, it messed things up more than it helped, and if it is not on the new unit it won't bother me


Loudo: Doug was making a funny. The Thumbs up and down were for "suggestions".


----------



## loudo

spunkyvision said:


> Loudo: Doug was making a funny. The Thumbs up and down were for "suggestions".


:gott: OK, it is late in the day, been working on here for about 9 hours, it flew right over my head.


----------



## Doug Brott

.. Sorry loudo .. just having some fun ..


----------



## DarinC

But FWIW, suggestions are one of the things I miss. :biggthump


----------



## bonscott87

Ugggg. Turning off suggestions was the first thing I did on any new Tivo unit I had. Hated that feature, sure glad you could turn it off.


----------



## jdspencer

I also turned off the automatic recording of suggestions, but I'd still look at the list to see if there was anything I might want to schedule.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bonscott87 said:


> Ugggg. Turning off suggestions was the first thing I did on any new Tivo unit I had. Hated that feature, sure glad you could turn it off.


That is the only TiVo feature that I actually hated. 

Mike


----------



## Tom Robertson

I turned it off right away, and then I looked once every 6 months or so, when I remembered. Always thought it was a cool feature, but obviously not something I relied upon heavily.

My feeling is that all features (that don't get in the way of "my features") are good for someone.


----------



## t_h

I always liked suggestions and could never figure out why they bothered people. They only took up space that wasnt in use by your recordings, it never recorded one with priority over your scheduled recordings or while you were watching live tv, and it made a heck of a free space indicator. When your suggestion list started getting small, it was time to delete some old crap.

Plus out of 10-20 suggestions, at least 1 or 2 were things I'd like to watch but hadnt known about, and half of the rest were at least decent for "cruise control" watching when you want to watch something with one eye open and the brain shut off.


----------



## bonscott87

t_h said:


> I always liked suggestions and could never figure out why they bothered people. They only took up space that wasnt in use by your recordings, it never recorded one with priority over your scheduled recordings or while you were watching live tv, and it made a heck of a free space indicator. When your suggestion list started getting small, it was time to delete some old crap.
> 
> Plus out of 10-20 suggestions, at least 1 or 2 were things I'd like to watch but hadnt known about, and half of the rest were at least decent for "cruise control" watching when you want to watch something with one eye open and the brain shut off.


They bothered me because it cluttered up my playlist. I hated that. And if I'm watched everything to the point that I just FFW thru something to just have something on then the TV goes off and I do something else.  I guess I just don't watch that much TV.


----------



## Sixto

same here. always turn off suggestions. and the boop sound.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> same here. always turn off suggestions. and the boop sound.


I actually _liked_ the "boop" sound... medium volume, IIRC.

Different strokes...  /steve


----------



## t_h

I liked the boop sound too. It let you know that the dang thing got your remote button push. You dont have to sit there for 4-5 seconds and see if it got it, then push it again half the time when it didnt. 

Hey Scott, you must have had an old tivo. The suggestions all go into one folder at the bottom of the playlist in the versions from 2003 on.

If you dont want to watch tv, what the heck do ya need a dvr for?!? :lol:

I used to just triple thumbs up a bunch of stuff on the food network, hgtv, and discovery. Interesting stuff but nothing I want recorded on a dedicated or consistent basis.


----------



## bidger

t_h said:


> If you dont want to watch tv, what the heck do ya need a dvr for?!? :lol:


I have DVRs because I do love TV. It's just that I'm more than capable of scheduling more than enough recordings to watch and I don't need TiVo guessing what I might like.

And I'm another who turns off the TiVo sound effects. Too much cartoonish crap IMO.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> DIRECTV has always been very conservative with respect to DRM .. I don't see this arrangement as being any different in concept. Basically DIRECTV has acknowledged that TiVo has some licensing rights in this area and as it turns out, TiVo has acknowledged that DIRECTV has some licensing rights in this area (via Replay Patents) .. they negotiated a contract for cross-licensing so that neither party had to worry about litigation .. DIRECTV still has low risk .. meaning if the TiVo project either succeeds or fails, DIRECTV isn't really exposed .. yet as part of the arrangement, DIRECTV doesn't have to worry about getting sued by TiVo.


If one of the main reasons for this agreement was to avoid been sued by TiVo, and if D* now has concluded that it is less likely TiVo can sue them anymore, then there is one more big reason why D* may not be so interested in this project.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> If one of the main reasons for this agreement was to avoid been sued by TiVo, and if D* now has concluded that it is less likely TiVo can sue them anymore, then there is one more big reason why D* may not be so interested in this project.


Why are you so interested in finding every possible way DIRECTV might back out of this deal? It has become very clear you very much want to find ways out. To the point of practically blaming a failure on Chase Carey getting a cold this winter. Or Tom Rogers forgetting to set his clocks ahead this weekend.

Yes, strange things could, in theory, stop this deal. But the likelihood that Tom Rogers' clock would be a part of this equation is no smaller than your scenarios.

Now, you have made it clear, you don't apply logic to your scenarios:


jacmyoung said:


> ...
> In today's financial world, logic is the last thing one might rely on. ...


I tend to think DIRECTV and TiVo made a deal they both want. So I tend to further think both parties will work toward their parts of the bargain.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ToddinVA

bidger said:


> I have DVRs because I do love TV. It's just that I'm more than capable of scheduling more than enough recordings to watch and I don't need TiVo guessing what I might like.
> 
> And I'm another who turns off the TiVo sound effects. Too much cartoonish crap IMO.


I turned off the sound effects the first day I had TiVo, nearly 10 years ago...

As for suggestions, I've always liked them. They aren't perfect, but it means there's always something to watch and sometimes it comes up with things you didn't know about.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If one of the main reasons for this agreement was to avoid been sued by TiVo, and if D* now has concluded that it is less likely TiVo can sue them anymore, then there is one more big reason why D* may not be so interested in this project.


Look at it this way .. both DIRECTV and TiVo made their beds .. now they must lie in it.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Why are you so interested in finding every possible way DIRECTV might back out of this deal? It has become very clear you very much want to find ways out. To the point of practically blaming a failure on Chase Carey getting a cold this winter. Or Tom Rogers forgetting to set his clocks ahead this weekend.
> 
> Yes, strange things could, in theory, stop this deal. But the likelihood that Tom Rogers' clock would be a part of this equation is no smaller than your scenarios.
> 
> Now, you have made it clear, you don't apply logic to your scenarios: I tend to think DIRECTV and TiVo made a deal they both want. So I tend to further think both parties will work toward their parts of the bargain.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Now again I can ask you the same question, why are so many TiVo fans so much want to believe that D* will honor the deal, when all indications point to the opposite?

Did D* make any effort to slow down the conversion from DirecTiVo to their HRs? Did D* make one mention of this new deal ever since the initial press release which the timing was very much a suspect?

As far as whether I like to see the new DirecTiVo, I have already said, if it will cost the same as the HRs, I would be one of the first try to get one, did that seem someone who wish it will not come true?

But I do not live in fantasy or wishful thinking


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> Now again I can ask you the same question, why are so many TiVo fans so much want to believe that D* will honor the deal, when all indications point to the opposite?
> 
> Did D* make any effort to slow down the conversion from DirecTiVo to their HRs? Did D* make one mention of this new deal ever since the initial press release which the timing was very much a suspect?
> 
> As far as whether I like to see the new DirecTiVo, I have already said, if it will cost the same as the HRs, I would be one of the first try to get one, did that seem someone who wish it will not come true?
> 
> But I do not live in fantasy or wishful thinking


I've been reading you posts throughout this thread.

Why won't DirecTV honor this contract?

Perhaps you could list your reasons for this so I, and others, may better understand you position.

What are the indications that DirecTV will not honor the contract with TiVo?

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Now again I can ask you the same question, why are so many TiVo fans so much want to believe that D* will honor the deal, when all indications point to the opposite?


Uh .. It's not "TiVo fans" that want to believe that DIRECTV will honor the deal (a.k.a .. legally binding contract) .. it's anyone with common sense. That's what a contract means.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Uh .. It's not "TiVo fans" that want to believe that DIRECTV will honor the deal (a.k.a .. legally binding contract) .. it's anyone with common sense. That's what a contract means.


We will just have to wait and see.

While we are waiting, please allow me to point out a few things:

Back in 01/08 I discovered a new DirecTV sub deal with AAA, which not only saved many an additional $240, but also allowed them to combine all the D* promos available in one order, and allowed them to order two HD DVRs for $99/ea. I am sure had that did not happen, many would have said that deal was some kind of wishful thinking. I am happy to say that so many benefited from that deal.

About the same time last year, I also speculated that by the second half of 2008 D* would begin to offer free HD DVR, at the time almost everyone made fun at me, saying I was nuts to think that way, why in the world D* would give people their HD DVRs for free? What happened?

There is still an on-going debate as whether the HRs will be made server/client in the D* MRV plan, I again am ridiculed for saying it is likely HR/HR MRV may not happen. We will see.

And of course this one. I do not pretend I will always be correct, but I do not speculate for speculation sake, and do not live in fantasy.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> We will just have to wait and see.


A "new" DirecTV TiVo HD box was announced September 2008.

There's now a press release from March 2009 stating "we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR".

During the recent analyst call, the CEO stated "later this year".

At least for now, they continue the development.

As with most things with the current economy, anything can change, and those that correctly predict something today may not be correct tomorrow.

The only thing that matters is the end result. We now wait ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> A "new" DirecTV TiVo HD box was announced September 2008.
> 
> There's now a press release from March 2009 stating "we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR".
> 
> During the recent analyst call, the CEO stated "later this year".
> 
> At least for now, they continue the development.
> 
> As with most things with the current economy, anything can change, and those that correctly predict something today may not be correct tomorrow.
> 
> The only thing that matters is the end result. We now wait ...


A good summary of the current state of affairs.

We're now in wait and see mode....


----------



## Syzygy

ToddinVA said:


> I turned off the sound effects the first day I had TiVo, nearly 10 years ago...
> 
> As for suggestions, I've always liked them. They aren't perfect, but it means there's always something to watch and sometimes it comes up with things you didn't know about.


Ditto! I could've written that post myself.

Plus (as others have said, sorta) suggestions are a poor man's Free Space Indicator.


----------



## DarinC

bidger said:


> It's just that I'm more than capable of scheduling more than enough recordings to watch and I don't need TiVo guessing what I might like.


Personally, I'd rather not have to spend time looking for things I might like and having to schedule them. There are a lot of shows I like on the various Discovery type networks that are one-offs as opposed to a series. It's nice to be able to have a list of shows you might potentially like to choose from, as opposed to having to always scan through the schedule. But I could see how suggestions wouldn't be as useful for someone who tended to watch the same list of shows.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DarinC said:


> Personally, I'd rather not have to spend time looking for things I might like and having to schedule them. There are a lot of shows I like on the various Discovery type networks that are one-offs as opposed to a series. It's nice to be able to have a list of shows you might potentially like to choose from, as opposed to having to always scan through the schedule. But I could see how suggestions wouldn't be as useful for someone who tended to watch the same list of shows.


DarinC,

An excellent example of different things for different people. And also describes how sometimes I would like to surf some items from a suggestion list and many times just go with my current program schedule. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

I have created a couple ARSLs for my mom that work like tivo suggestions for her on her hr20 so that she has stuff to watch when my dad watches GUY stuff in the den... It works great.. I never get calls about not having shows to watch...

There are always workarounds..


----------



## bbanks69

I am still unsure, how I will come out if I change to HD today, how I will come out 'next year' when I want to go with TIVO. 

To start with, if i purchase an HR22 from Best Buy, will I own it, or will I still be leasing, it? 

If I am purchasing it, and it will be mines to do with as I please, then couldn't I sell it on eBay or something if I go with Tivo?


----------



## Tom Robertson

bbanks69 said:


> I am still unsure, how I will come out if I change to HD today, how I will come out 'next year' when I want to go with TIVO.
> 
> To start with, if i purchase an HR22 from Best Buy, will I own it, or will I still be leasing, it?
> 
> If I am purchasing it, and it will be mines to do with as I please, then couldn't I sell it on eBay or something if I go with Tivo?


If you acquire from BestBuy, Costco, etc. you will be leasing. And likely not getting the best deal you might get from DIRECTV.

If you want to own, the easiest way is thru DIRECTV, tho you can own an HR21-Pro through several online resellers. That is the only "owned" unit generally available.

Another consideration is leasing now gets you started. Then in 6 months or so, you likely will qualify for another inexpensive upgrade to add to your collection.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bbanks69

Tom Robertson said:


> If you acquire from BestBuy, Costco, etc. you will be leasing. And likely not getting the best deal you might get from DIRECTV.
> 
> If you want to own, the easiest way is thru DIRECTV, tho you can own an HR21-Pro through several online resellers. That is the only "owned" unit generally available.
> 
> Another consideration is leasing now gets you started. Then in 6 months or so, you likely will qualify for another inexpensive upgrade to add to your collection.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Tom, you are a wealth of information. I think I am going to see what i can find the HR21-Pro on the net for. depending on cost I think this will be my first choice, other than that, i would have to go with your last suggestion and hope in six months, I can get an inexpensive upgrade. crossing my fingers.

and Thanks again
Bill


----------



## Mike Bertelson

So Jacmyoung, I guess you don't want to answer my question.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2023456#post2023456

Mike


----------



## ATARI

jacmyoung said:


> We will just have to wait and see.
> 
> While we are waiting, please allow me to point out a few things:
> 
> Back in 01/08 I discovered a new DirecTV sub deal with AAA, which not only saved many an additional $240, but also allowed them to combine all the D* promos available in one order, and allowed them to order two HD DVRs for $99/ea. I am sure had that did not happen, many would have said that deal was some kind of wishful thinking. I am happy to say that so many benefited from that deal.
> 
> About the same time last year, I also speculated that by the second half of 2008 D* would begin to offer free HD DVR, at the time almost everyone made fun at me, saying I was nuts to think that way, why in the world D* would give people their HD DVRs for free? What happened?
> 
> There is still an on-going debate as whether the HRs will be made server/client in the D* MRV plan, I again am ridiculed for saying it is likely HR/HR MRV may not happen. We will see.
> 
> And of course this one. I do not pretend I will always be correct, but I do not speculate for speculation sake, and do not live in fantasy.


Just curious -- what is your prognostication for DLB?


----------



## jacmyoung

ATARI said:


> Just curious -- what is your prognostication for DLB?


I never cared for it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ATARI said:


> Just curious -- what is your prognostication for DLB?


I can plainly state that DLB will happen--at least if TiVo delivers. 

As to other forms of DLB as in the HR2x plus line... I reiterate that "something better than DLB is coming."

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> I can plainly state that DLB will happen--at least if TiVo delivers. ...


Deliver on the 4-year-old HR platform?


----------



## bbanks69

Tom Robertson said:


> I can plainly state that DLB will happen--at least if TiVo delivers.
> 
> As to other forms of DLB as in the HR2x plus line... I reiterate that "something better than DLB is coming."
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom, you are teasing us now, because now everyone wants to know, what is better than DLB, but I guess some things we have to just wait and see, bbbuuuttt, how long do we have to wait

Bill


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Because it is a strawman argument, I never said D* will not honor the contract, but there are many ways to walk away from a contract without any implication. Things happen all the time, things fall apart all the time.


Indeed, they do. Why to you look for all the reasons they might fall apart? Especially in the deepest corners of the contract for why "DIRECTV would back out"? When it would be in DIRECTV's interest to keep the agreement?

(And then manipulate those corners in ways to make your strawman arguments?)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Deliver on the 4-year-old HR platform?


Ah there is the question. 

My "trivial" expectation is that the 4-year-old HR platform will continue to advance (definitely a well DUH! statement). 

Will the TiVo code run on the HR20? HR21? HR22? HR23? I do not know. It should be able.

As for DIRECTV delivering DLB on the HR2x, all I can say is we proved more than 2 years ago that it is very capable of the dataflow and cpu requirements. Well that and "something better than DLB" will be delivered.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bbanks69 said:


> Tom, you are teasing us now, because now everyone wants to know, what is better than DLB, but I guess some things we have to just wait and see, bbbuuuttt, how long do we have to wait
> 
> Bill


You must realize DIRECTV teases us too. 

They have a tremendous sense of humor...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> Just curious -- what is your prognostication for DLB?





jacmyoung said:


> Because it is a strawman argument, I never said D* will not honor the contract, but there are many ways to walk away from a contract without any implication. Things happen all the time, things fall apart all the time.


This doesn't seem to be an answer to the question :scratchin


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> This doesn't seem to be an answer to the question :scratchin


But then neither is Tom's! :lol:


bbanks69 said:


> Tom, you are teasing us now, because now everyone wants to know, what is better than DLB, but I guess some things we have to just wait and see, bbbuuuttt, *how long do we have to wait*





Tom Robertson said:


> You must realize DIRECTV teases us too.
> They have a tremendous sense of humor...


----------



## Sixto

re: "better".

you'd think that a home run is "better" then a double.

you'd think that a touchdown is "better" then a field goal.

and you'd debate forever when football is "better" then baseball (or the opposite).

geez, been debating whether the HR2x is better then TiVo for almost 3 years now. 

some things are objective and some are subjective.

hopefully "better then DLB" allows you to at least get to that second buffer (to lean more towards objective), but maybe it's "better" in a different way.

otherwise, there may be some debate. 

and there may be some debate as to whether a touchdown or home run is really "better". may be totally dependent on the context of the game. keep the pitcher on the ropes and pitching from the stretch with the double. or kick the quick field goal quickly rather then drive for the touchdown because you need the ball again. 

be interesting to see how "better" plays out ...


----------



## t_h

TLB.

Or DLB220, 221, whatever it takes.


----------



## loudo

Tom Robertson said:


> Ah there is the question.
> Will the TiVo code run on the HR20? HR21? HR22? HR23? I do not know. It should be able.


There seems to be an endless list of features that can be developed and added to any software driven piece of hardware. Just like our computers, you can reload a new operating system and wow, look at all the new features.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> This doesn't seem to be an answer to the question :scratchin


You are right, correction below:



MicroBeta said:


> So Jacmyoung, I guess you don't want to answer my question.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2023456#post2023456
> 
> Mike


Because it is a strawman argument, I never said D* will not honor the contract, but there are many ways to walk away from a contract without any implication. Things happen all the time, things fall apart all the time.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> ...Well that and "something better than DLB" will be delivered.


Are you saying the current HRs will deliver something soon and better than the future DirecTiVo will deliver a year from now?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I never said D* will not honor the contract, but there are many ways to walk away from a contract without any implication. Things happen all the time, things fall apart all the time.


If this is so, then please excuse the rest of us for questioning why you would make the following comment .. 



jacmyoung said:


> Now again I can ask you the same question, why are so many TiVo fans so much want to believe that D* will honor the deal, when all indications point to the opposite?


----------



## Tom Robertson

MicroBeta said:


> jacmyoung said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now again I can ask you the same question, why are so many TiVo fans so much want to believe that D* will honor the deal, when all indications point to the opposite?
> 
> Did D* make any effort to slow down the conversion from DirecTiVo to their HRs? Did D* make one mention of this new deal ever since the initial press release which the timing was very much a suspect?
> 
> As far as whether I like to see the new DirecTiVo, I have already said, if it will cost the same as the HRs, I would be one of the first try to get one, did that seem someone who wish it will not come true?
> 
> But I do not live in fantasy or wishful thinking
> 
> 
> 
> I've been reading you posts throughout this thread.
> 
> Why won't DirecTV honor this contract?
> 
> Perhaps you could list your reasons for this so I, and others, may better understand you position.
> 
> What are the indications that DirecTV will not honor the contract with TiVo?
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...




jacmyoung said:


> Because it is a strawman argument, I never said D* will not honor the contract, but there are many ways to walk away from a contract without any implication. Things happen all the time, things fall apart all the time.


I can hear Don Adams as Maxwell Smart now: "The old 'Strawman Argument' trick." 

Actually, Mike's questions are not strawman. Your posts, including this last one, have formed an impression that you feel DIRECTV will desire to, attempt to, and otherwise break out of the contract or project. You've listed many points as to how it might be done.

So Mike is asking for clarifications and your reasoning. That is not a strawman.

Of course you can ignore this request or put up your own strawman argument if you chuse. (Or the "this is a strawman argument" trick.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> You are right, correction below:
> 
> Because it is a strawman argument, I never said D* will not honor the contract, but there are many ways to walk away from a contract without any implication. Things happen all the time, things fall apart all the time.


 I don't understand what your talking about. It has nothing to do with my question.

You said&#8230;


jacmyoung said:


> <snip>*&#8230;so many TiVo fans so much want to believe that D* will honor the deal, when all indications point to the opposite?*
> <snip>


All I asked was what are the "indications point to the opposite".

I know you never said DirecTV will walk away. You said there were indications and I just wanted to know what they were.

I wasn't asking for interpretation of what you think. I was simply asking for the facts you said were indications of why DirecTV will walk away from this deal.

You went so far as to chastise "TiVo fans" for believing that DirecTV would honor a binding contract.

You said you knew by the indications given by DirecTV that they wouldn't honor the contract.

Look, I was really interested in understanding all of this. You said a bunch of stuff that made me think I missed or didn't understand something. Nothing more nothing less.

So what are they? Do you or do you not know of some phantom "indications"?

Or are you just blowing smoke, in which case you have nothing meaningful to contribute to this discussion and I can ignore you?

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

Well my sincere apology for mis-speaking, no I did not mean D* will not honor the contract, rather that D* had not shown any interest in seeing this new DirecTiVo come to reality, the deal that the new D*TiVo should be, a new DVR that is indeed new by the 2010 standards.

And a year from now, the new DVR will not likely be based on some 4-year-old HR platform, there will be no obligation on D*'s part to help provide a new platform so that TiVo may port its new features to it to make it worth paying another $5 to $10/mo. for.

Most people here are insisting the new D*TIVO will be based on the same HR platform, will not be hard to develop, nor will it cost more. The reason you all try to limit it is precisely because we all realize D* made no meaningful commitment in this agreement. It will be easy for D* to be out of it because it is unrealistic to expect that a new TiVo DVR sometime in 2010 will be just based on some 4-year-old DVR hardware platform.

But since D* is not obligated to offer anything more than that, either that new DVR will not worth the so called "significant higher fee", or if really to be "new" to deserve that higher fee, there is no obligation on the D* part to fulfill it.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> I can plainly state that DLB will happen--at least if TiVo delivers.
> 
> As to other forms of DLB as in the HR2x plus line... I reiterate that "something better than DLB is coming."
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


And Tom, I will again use your own quote to drive through my point.

If as you implied, our HR DVRs may soon get some feature that will be better than the new TiVo will be able to offer sometime in 2010, what is the point of having that new TiVo that will cost significantly more each month one year from now?


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Well my sincere apology for mis-speaking, no I did not mean D* will not honor the contract, rather that D* had not shown any interest in seeing this new DirecTiVo come to reality, the deal that the new D*TiVo should be, a new DVR that is indeed new by the 2010 standards.
> 
> And a year from now, the new DVR will not likely be based on some 4-year-old HR platform, there will be no obligation on D*'s part to help provide a new platform so that TiVo may port its new features to it to make it worth paying another $5 to $10/mo. for.
> 
> Most people here are insisting the new D*TIVO will be based on the same HR platform, will not be hard to develop, nor will it cost more. The reason you all try to limit it is precisely because we all realize D* made no meaningful commitment in this agreement. It will be easy for D* to be out of it because it is unrealistic to expect that a new TiVo DVR sometime in 2010 will be just based on some 4-year-old DVR hardware platform.
> 
> But since D* is not obligated to offer anything more than that, either that new DVR will not worth the so called "significant higher fee", or if really to be "new" to deserve that higher fee, there is no obligation on the D* part to fulfill it.


Again, you need to reiterate the basis for your feelings or opinion that "rather that D* had not shown any interest in seeing this new DirecTiVo come to reality" and your basis for "the deal that the new D*TiVo should be, a new DVR that is indeed new by the 2010 standards."

Do you realize that DIRECTV has already announced they will be making new DVRs in their conference calls? I gotta think these are the models DIRECTV will also use for the DIRECTV-TiVo unit. No extra effort on DIRECTVs part to fulfill the contractual obligation. (Remember... they _are _obligated by contract.)

And the reason I don't expect higher hardware costs is I expect hardware prices to fall. With the new model it will have "more stuff" but at next year's prices "more stuff" will be the same as today's prices for today's DVRs. 

Now, I could see a small one-time "fee" for the TiVo software. Nothing big, perhaps $15-$50. ($25 is a good price point.) Or DIRECTV might only do this via the monthly fee increase they have announced.

Lastly, most people are saying it will be an extension of the current platform, but not the current HR20/1/2 models. Perhaps, though I don't think so, it might be based on the HR23 model. I'm expecting the DIRECTV-TiVo to be on a new box that is the next step in the HR2x evolution.

That said, I do believe TiVo could just as easily port their code to some members of the existing HR2x family and indeed might be doing so as a development platform--but not a release platform. That is speculation on my part, but reasonable in that the broadcom family are relatively similar just like the Intel family is.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken_F

jacmyoung said:


> If as you implied, our HR DVRs may soon get some feature that will be better than the new TiVo will be able to offer sometime in 2010, what is the point of having that new TiVo that will cost significantly more each month one year from now?


Where are you getting the information that it will cost significantly more?

While it is more costly to maintain two separate DVR platforms at the same price, I don't think there is any evidence to support your suggestion that TiVo service will cost an extra $5-10/mo. In fact, I would be *very surprised* if TiVo did not have a provision in the contract limiting the service premium to $1/mo or less. I think it is very likely that the TiVo contract allows for no monthly premium, but some capped upfront premium, such an extra $50 for the *same* DirecTV DVR hardware running TiVo software.

As for why DirecTV would offer TiVo service at their cost, or even a small cost to them, consider that this is the alternative to paying a license fee on _every_ DVR sold. TiVo places a clear value on their technology, as we've seen in the Echostar case. I do not buy the argument that TiVo would just give it away for free in exchange for the ability to offer another DirecTiVo at a significant premium, which would have little chance for success. That makes no business sense for them.


----------



## Sixto

based on normal business practices ...

DirecTV & TiVo: you develop a new business relationship ... you announce it via a press release (they did).

DirecTV: you announce Q4 and Q1 earnings and you're doing great ... you say nothing about this future deal again because you don't need to ... your earnings are growing, your subscriber base is growing ... don't mention TiVo again because why put any doubt in any subscriber's mind ... have them keep buying what you have on the truck today ... especially when you want HR10-to-HR2x swaps NOW to shut down MPEG2 HD ... this is a basic business practice for most major corporations.

TiVo: you announce Q4 and Q1 earnings and you're subscriber base is going down ... you are finally making a profit ... you did well with the EchoStar legal win so you talk about it ... you're rolling out Comcast and you talk about that ... and you have a plan to reduce the DirecTV churn but it's 6-12 months away so you talk about that last.

Have seen many situations over the years where a company totally ignores a future product because the current product needs to drive growth in the current quarter.


----------



## Steve

Ken_F said:


> Where are you getting the information that it will cost significantly more? [...]


Actually, it was from a December SEC TiVo filing:

_"Under this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo (when and if the new version of the TiVo service is deployed) than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. The Company will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded by DIRECTV."

_That said, "substantial" is a relative term. The current agreement calls for DirecTV to pay TiVo about $1/month per DirecTiVo subscriber household, so even an increase to $1.50 or $2.00 per month would represent a "substantial" (50%-100%) increase, wouldn't it? /steve


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Again, you need to reiterate the basis for your feelings or opinion that "rather that D* had not shown any interest in seeing this new DirecTiVo come to reality"


I have shown such basis over and over, that so far there is no indication that D* is interested to even make a single mentioning of such project, and at the very same time, D* is coverting its old DirecTiVo subs to its own HRs at the same pace, if not at a faster pace.



> and your basis for "the deal that the new D*TiVo should be, a new DVR that is indeed new by the 2010 standards."


That is common sense really. The reason that most of you must take the proposition that the "new" DVR does not need to be any "newer" is because you have to, D* made little or no meaningful commitment in this agreement for you to be hopeful a truly "new" DVR will be offered.

Otherwise, I am sure everyone will be speculating all the "new" features and "new" found power in that "new" DVR, which by somewhat a consensus will be out sometime next year if we are lucky. Otherwise I can only conclude that most TiVo fans don't want progress, only to have some old things to remain happy. Are you willing to accept that accusation?



> Do you realize that DIRECTV has already announced they will be making new DVRs in their conference calls? I gotta think these are the models DIRECTV will also use for the DIRECTV-TiVo unit. No extra effort on DIRECTVs part to fulfill the contractual obligation. (Remember... they _are _obligated by contract.)


Of course I do, and what D* had said in those conference calls had strenghtened my belief that D* is focused on making their own new DVRs, namely that new DVR server which will support multiple clients.



> And the reason I don't expect higher hardware costs is I expect hardware prices to fall. With the new model it will have "more stuff" but at next year's prices "more stuff" will be the same as today's prices for today's DVRs.


But how much will the old platform (our HR DVRs and their new features) cost a year from now? Must use the same time line for comparision.



> Now, I could see a small one-time "fee" for the TiVo software. Nothing big, perhaps $15-$50. ($25 is a good price point.) Or DIRECTV might only do this via the monthly fee increase they have announced.
> 
> Lastly, most people are saying it will be an extension of the current platform, but not the current HR20/1/2 models. Perhaps, though I don't think so, it might be based on the HR23 model. I'm expecting the DIRECTV-TiVo to be on a new box that is the next step in the HR2x evolution.
> 
> That said, I do believe TiVo could just as easily port their code to some members of the existing HR2x family and indeed might be doing so as a development platform--but not a release platform. That is speculation on my part, but reasonable in that the broadcom family are relatively similar just like the Intel family is.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Again it goes back to the common sense approach, all indications are, if this new DVR will come true a year from now, it better offers some good number of new features and new power, in order to be an attractive piece of hardware/software, and not to be compared to the old DirecTiVos, but with all the new gears people are to expect from D* themselves, and from all other vendors, *a year from now*, to be worth the extra fees.

The question is, is D* obligated to help TiVo to reach that level next year?

Was Comcast obligated to help TiVo three years ago? They had their agreement. How has it turned out so far?

BTW, you have not responded to my other question, the "better than DLB" one


----------



## bonscott87

Tom Robertson said:


> Lastly, most people are saying it will be an extension of the current platform, but not the current HR20/1/2 models. Perhaps, though I don't think so, it might be based on the HR23 model. I'm expecting the DIRECTV-TiVo to be on a new box that is the next step in the HR2x evolution.


I would fully expect this to be a new box. An "HR30" if you will. It will come preloaded with the DirecTV DVR software and the customer has the option to load the Tivo software on it for an extra fee (one time, monthly or both). I don't think the Tivo software will be available on the current HR2x series. Why? Because it's already 3-4 year old design and we know from the latest DirecTV conference calls that they are already working on the next gen platform for 2010. Thus it would make perfect sense to have Tivo be an option on this next gen platform, not the current HR2x platform which will start to be phased out over the next couple years.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

I want to be able to pause the local news, watch SportsCenter till commercial pause it, and go back to the local news. Rinse and repeat. No recording one and watching the other. Just do it live. That's what I want. 

What could be better? Yes, that is the question. Thinking a bit deeper, better would be if I fat finger the channel button and turn it off SportsCenter to ESPN-News then go back to SportsCenter and be able to recover my buffer. I hate when I fat finger the channel and lose the buffer. That sucks big time. Though not as much as watching without a DVR.

From what I can gather I just described DLB and something that doesn't exist. So what could be better than DLB for me?

It looks like I will be going HR2x because I just rewired the system here and still have tuner 2 issues on my D-TiVo. I really wanted to wait until the new one but it appears I cannot now.


----------



## Steve

Bonscott87 said:


> I would fully expect this to be a new box. An "HR30" if you will. It will come preloaded with the DirecTV DVR software and the customer has the option to load the Tivo software on it for an extra fee (one time, monthly or both). I don't think the Tivo software will be available on the current HR2x series. Why? Because it's already 3-4 year old design and we know from the latest DirecTV conference calls that they are already working on the next gen platform for 2010. Thus it would make perfect sense to have Tivo be an option on this next gen platform, not the current HR2x platform which will start to be phased out over the next couple years.


I respectfully disagree. 

TiVo's Rogers said publicly last week they were shooting for end of '09 for DirecTV deployment.
I don't see DirecTV introducing two new DVR solutions at the same time.
TiVo doesn't need "advanced" hardware. All the current TiVo features run on the TiVoHD and TiVoHD XL, which are same generation and CPU as the HR21.
/steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> Again, you need to reiterate the basis for your feelings or opinion that "rather that D* had not shown any interest in seeing this new DirecTiVo come to reality" and your basis for "the deal that the new D*TiVo should be, a new DVR that is indeed new by the 2010 standards."





jacmyoung said:


> I have shown such basis over and over, that so far there is no indication that D* is interested to even make a single mentioning of such project, and at the very same time, D* is coverting its old DirecTiVo subs to its own HRs at the same pace, if not at a faster pace.


I wouldn't go so far as to say "over and over." Your only indication is:



> DIRECTV had not shown any interest in seeing this new DirecTiVo come to reality


At this point, DIRECTV is or has handed over documents to TiVo and made or will make any modifications necessary to support the use, installation and maintenance of the TiVo firmware. This is all behind the scenes so there is no reason we would see this.

Outwardly, as Sixto suggests, DIRECTV is probably more interested in helping to churn those DIRECTiVo and HD DIRECTiVo users onto their own platform. That means money now to DIRECTV. As a result, any "TiVo" announcement or "interest" could have the affect of lowering DIRECTV's revenues now as some folks wait until later this year or next year to upgrade their service.

Bottom line is that it is in DIRECTV's interest to be quiet regardless of whether the new HD DIRECTiVo happens or not. Saying that "DIRECTV had not shown any interest" is not really a sufficient basis to conclude that we will not be "seeing this new DirecTiVo come to reality," IMHO.


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> TiVo's Rogers said publicly last week they were shooting for end of '09 for DirecTV deployment.


Just for clarity, wasn't the actually comment "later this year?" The press release (from last September) said 2H 2009. Aren't those the "official" word?


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> and your basis for "the deal that the new D*TiVo should be, a new DVR that is indeed new by the 2010 standards."





jacmyoung said:


> That is common sense really. The reason that most of you must take the proposition that the "new" DVR does not need to be any "newer" is because you have to, D* made little or no meaningful commitment in this agreement for you to be hopeful a truly "new" DVR will be offered.
> 
> Otherwise, I am sure everyone will be speculating all the "new" features and "new" found power in that "new" DVR, which by somewhat a consensus will be out sometime next year if we are lucky. Otherwise I can only conclude that most TiVo fans don't want progress, only to have some old things to remain happy. Are you willing to accept that accusation?


This is fine. You are more than welcome to have this opinion .. but I'm doubtful that DIRECTV will have a completely new ultra-wizbang new receiver for TiVo.

Personally, I see no reason why the current HR2x receiver couldn't be used. It plays MPEG, MPEG4 and OTA. I believe the whole point (for TiVo and TiVo fans) is to get the TiVo firmware back to DIRECTV. Will it include every feature? That's hard to say ..

The "move to other DVR" MRV approach brings up DRM issues .. This might be a problem for DIRECTV as DIRECTV has shown time and time again that they want to take a very conservative approach towards DRM. The good news is that DIRECTV plans to have their own MRV implementation .. TiVo really can piggyback on that and still offer the solution.

Netflix is another one of those extras that could be problematic because DIRECTV offers their own On Demand selection. Would it really make sense for DIRECTV to offer a competitor space on their system? I don't know the answer to that .. On the surface it seems like this would be problematic, but you never know.

TiVo2Go .. who knows :shrug: .. I'll go back to DIRECTV's conservative approach to DRM .. That's a likely indicator of whether or not we'll see that feature.

In any event, I certainly wouldn't call it "common sense" that the hardware will be significantly different than the 4-year old HR2x platform.


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> That said, "substantial" is a relative term. The current agreement calls for DirecTV to pay TiVo about $1/month per DirecTiVo subscriber household, so even an increase to $1.50 or $2.00 per month would represent a "substantial" (50%-100%) increase, wouldn't it?


The way that I read this is that no matter how few nextgen DirecTiVo [I can't remember what the nickname is] subscribers DIRECTV has, they will have to pay a flat-rate minimum dollar figure per month.

I believe this is an important distinction when everyone seems to be arguing over per unit or per household pricing. *If* DIRECTV's cost is based on an escalating minimum commitment, they would certainly be motivated to help in any way they could to allow their customers to pay higher rates as soon as possible to defray these costs.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> In any event, I certainly wouldn't call it "common sense" that the hardware will be significantly different than the 4-year old HR2x platform.


The HR20-700 was shipped a little less than 29 months ago to the public. Is this typical for a development cycle?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Again it goes back to the common sense approach, all indications are, if this new DVR will come true a year from now, it better offers some good number of new features and new power, in order to be an attractive piece of hardware/software, and not to be compared to the old DirecTiVos, but with all the new gears people are to expect from D* themselves, and from all other vendors, *a year from now*, to be worth the extra fees.


See my previous post .. I disagree that it is "common sense." In fact, the only real indication that we have is that "DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo(R) service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform."



> The question is, is D* obligated to help TiVo to reach that level next year?


As indicated in the SEC Filing, DIRECTV has obligations to help TiVo make this product a reality. As for whether or not it is a success? That's up to the market.



> Was Comcast obligated to help TiVo three years ago? They had their agreement. How has it turned out so far?


This is part of the reason many of us have suggested that the project will not be completed in the time frame that TiVo and DIRECTV have announced.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> The way that I read this is that no matter how few nextgen DirecTiVo [I can't remember what the nickname is] subscribers DIRECTV has, they will have to pay a flat-rate minimum dollar figure per month.
> 
> I believe this is an important distinction when everyone seems to be arguing over per unit or per household pricing. *If* DIRECTV's cost is based on an escalating minimum commitment, they would certainly be motivated to help in any way they could to allow their customers to pay higher rates as soon as possible to defray these costs.


Considering the entire industry works on a per-subscriber basis, I'd find it hard to believe that either DIRECTV or TiVo would agree to a flat-rate fee. What if the TiVo were to take off and become the hottest thing since Barbie was introduced. Then all of a sudden, TiVo looks stupid for asking for what would be a fraction of what it was actually worth.

On the other hand, if the TiVo is a dud and never takes off, DIRECTV looks stupid for spending so much money on this.

Nah, I'm sure there will be some per-subscriber formula to this.


----------



## Doug Brott

Doug Brott said:


> In any event, I certainly wouldn't call it "common sense" that the hardware will be significantly different than the 4-year old HR2x platform.





harsh said:


> The HR20-700 was shipped a little less than 29 months ago to the public. Is this typical for a development cycle?


The HR23 uses wide-band tuners .. I certainly expect this to be true of any hardware that the TiVo runs on. The drive may be bigger, but at what point does it really matter for making a sale.

In the end, perhaps my definition of "significantly different" is not the same as yours.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> Considering the entire industry works on a per-subscriber basis, I'd find it hard to believe that either DIRECTV or TiVo would agree to a flat-rate fee.


I was suggesting that there would be a flat-rate _minimum_. This would be a safety net for TiVo if the per-unit charges didn't bring enough revenue.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> In the end, perhaps my definition of "significantly different" is not the same as yours.


I've been a supporter of the idea that the TiVo software will run on existing hardware from the beginning. I was just wondering where you got your four year old platform claim since it has only been fully implemented for a little over two years.


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> The way that I read this is that no matter how few nextgen DirecTiVo [I can't remember what the nickname is] subscribers DIRECTV has, they will have to pay a flat-rate minimum dollar figure per month.
> 
> I believe this is an important distinction when everyone seems to be arguing over per unit or per household pricing. *If* DIRECTV's cost is based on an escalating minimum commitment, they would certainly be motivated to help in any way they could to allow their customers to pay higher rates as soon as possible to defray these costs.


The last DirecTiVo/TiVo agreement was per subscriber household and also called for a minimum monthly commitment from DirecTV if the subscriber revenues fell below a certain amount, so this is nothing new.

Note that in both agreements, TiVo is committed to allocating a portion of that commitment towards development costs, so in essence, the minimum commitment is in lieu of DirecTV partially financing the project if it turns out not to be profitable for TiVo based on subscriber acquistion alone. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> I've been a supporter of the idea that the TiVo software will run on existing hardware from the beginning. I was just wondering where you got your four year old platform claim since it has only been fully implemented for a little over two years.


That's not my number .. I was responding to this command .. It's a stretch as the first HR2x was released August 2006 and the TiVo will be release (in my estimation) Q1 2010 .. 2010 - 2006 == 4 years  ..



jacmyoung said:


> And a year from now, the new DVR will not likely be based on some 4-year-old HR platform, there will be no obligation on D*'s part to help provide a new platform so that TiVo may port its new features to it to make it worth paying another $5 to $10/mo. for.


The HR23 was released in the past year and since I expect any TiVo to be based on the HR23 (or it's follow up) the time difference is closer to 18-24 months (when TiVo finally gets released) than 4-years.


----------



## bonscott87

harsh said:


> I was just wondering where you got your four year old platform claim since it has only been fully implemented for a little over two years.


Well, the first HR20s were shipping in July 2006 to the LA market. That's nearly 3 years now. You gotta know it was in testing long before that since they wanted it launced at the end of 2005 but had delays. So yes, the platform specs and original hardware are already 4 years old.

The only advances so far is the HR21 removed the OTA tuners, the HR22 has a larger hard drive and the HR23 has the wideband tuners built in. But other then that it's the same 4 year old "platform". By the time the Tivo is ready to go it'll be nearly a 5 year old platform and near end of life (as evidenced by DirecTV doing a new platform in 2010).

I'm not saying they won't allow the ability to load Tivo on the current generation platform, but it would surprise me.


----------



## Doug Brott

Scott,

You should at least calculate between general availability dates. If you're going to back-date the DIRECTV due to development time it's only fair to do the same on the TiVo product .


----------



## Steve

I think Windows 7 is an example of how, after a certain point, the hardware specs become irrelevant to the application. It's actually running better on my 4 year old laptop than XP, so sometimes it's all about the software.

Another example was the jump from TiVo 3.x to TiVo 6.x on the HR10. A revamped database improved scheduler performance by an order of magnitude, some 3-4 years after the initial hardware was designed.

/steve


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> A revamped database improved scheduler performance by an order of magnitude, some 3-4 years after the initial hardware was designed.


I'm still of a mind that they could make a whole lot more of the HR2x series if they revamped its database engine.


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> Scott,
> 
> You should at least calculate between general availability dates. If you're going to back-date the DIRECTV due to development time it's only fair to do the same on the TiVo product .


Fair enough.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> ...
> 
> TiVo2Go .. who knows :shrug: .. I'll go back to DIRECTV's conservative approach to DRM .. That's a likely indicator of whether or not we'll see that feature.
> 
> ...


No biggie. Worst case, I could always just get a D* HD reciever, capture the component out onto my HTPC and let BeyondTV ShowSqueeze create my mobile device video. I already use this method to port my HD OTA content to my Nokia 770 Internet Tablet.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I have shown such basis over and over, that so far there is no indication that D* is interested to even make a single mentioning of such project, and at the very same time, D* is coverting its old DirecTiVo subs to its own HRs at the same pace, if not at a faster pace.


That is a strawman answer. Or not answer. 
And a "Well Duh!" answer at that.

Of course DIRECTV is going to sell everything they can everyday. Of course they won't mention another product that doesn't exist and eat into sales of products that do exist.

That is common sense really. 


jacmyoung said:


> That is common sense really. The reason that most of you must take the proposition that the "new" DVR does not need to be any "newer" is because you have to, D* made little or no meaningful commitment in this agreement for you to be hopeful a truly "new" DVR will be offered.
> 
> Otherwise, I am sure everyone will be speculating all the "new" features and "new" found power in that "new" DVR, which by somewhat a consensus will be out sometime next year if we are lucky. Otherwise I can only conclude that most TiVo fans don't want progress, only to have some old things to remain happy. Are you willing to accept that accusation?


Nope. Not if you're accusing me. 

I think most DIRECTV-TiVo fans would be happy with a nearly full TiVo feature set that overlaps well with the DIRECTV feature sets (MRV, mediashare, etc.) I don't expect any new hardware features will make a difference.

And any new hardware will be used by DIRECTV for the HR plus line as well as the TiVo line. That has been mentioned by both the agreement and public statements. So there is no need to speculate about the hardware being dual duty. (And this minimizes the DIRECTV required involvement.)


jacmyoung said:


> Of course I do, and what D* had said in those conference calls had strenghtened my belief that D* is focused on making their own new DVRs, namely that new DVR server which will support multiple clients.


Business 101 is make a good product. Business 301 is to create multiple products cover multiple market segments with competing products.

Yes, DIRECTV will continue to aggressively market their existing product. (Well Duh!) Once the "competing" product, the DIRECTV TiVo unit, is ready DIRECTV will market both. But not before.


jacmyoung said:


> But how much will the old platform (our HR DVRs and their new features) cost a year from now? Must use the same time line for comparision.


My guess is that the current HR2x family will be slightly less expensive and the new hardware will be about today's price. At the mass manufacturing level, a 320gb hard drive and 500gb hard drive are the same price right now. The newer has dropped to the same price as the older.


jacmyoung said:


> Again it goes back to the common sense approach, all indications are, if this new DVR will come true a year from now, it better offers some good number of new features and new power, in order to be an attractive piece of hardware/software, and not to be compared to the old DirecTiVos, but with all the new gears people are to expect from D* themselves, and from all other vendors, *a year from now*, to be worth the extra fees.


There you go again with the "all indicators are" strawman without defining the indicators you "see". What I see, aside from more tuners and/or a faster network connection, is the features will come from software. Not from hardware.


jacmyoung said:


> The question is, is D* obligated to help TiVo to reach that level next year?
> 
> Was Comcast obligated to help TiVo three years ago? They had their agreement. How has it turned out so far?


I have not seen the Comcast contract in any form. So I don't know if Comcast was obligated. But Comcast has not backed out of the project as you imply DIRECTV is going to.

I do know DIRECTV is obligated, that the effort DIRECTV is obligated to provide is a combination of $$, simple technology changes, and a set of specifications. DIRECTV's part is relatively simple.


jacmyoung said:


> BTW, you have not responded to my other question, the "better than DLB" one


Actually I have. I said "all I can say" and that is all I can say. You likely know by now that we are not permitted to say everything we are told or surmise. So we do the best we can. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> I'm still of a mind that they could make a whole lot more of the HR2x series if they revamped its database engine.


It's been 9 months, 2 weeks and 3 days since this announcement that DirecTV licensed the _McObject's eXtremeDB Fusion Database_.

Whether or not it's already been integrated is unknown to me. I have seen some improvements in SEARCH and scheduling performance lately, especially in the area of AUTORECORDS, but nothing like a TiVo 3.x to 6.x leap in performance. That said, I'm not sure if the HR2x was starting out as "behind" as TiVo, because they use a different approach to scheduling (background) vs. TiVo's showing you the results of your actions in real-time, which I prefer.

/steve


----------



## bbanks69

Years ago I had a dvr that I paid for. The dVR could only record about 25 hours of SD, but it was Tivo and i loved it.D* was offering a Dvr for 100.00 dollars for a new DVR with 100 hours of recordings. I did not know that it was not Tivo until they took my Purchased box. I thought that it was not a big deal until I realized all of the features that I loved were gone. One of witch was DLB. I thought that I was just doing something wrong, so I called D* and was told that that was only with the Tivo box, and of course, i could not get a new one. I was pissed but had to live with it because i liked D* better than cable.

I then later found this site and leaned a lot. the first thing that i learned was that I no longer owned my equipment. I don't think that if i want to purchase more service from a company, i should first have to purchase new equipment from said company. and then I do not even get to choose the equipment that I will receive. at the time i did not know about HD dvr's, and once I found out about them I would have to pay again to get one. I am hoping that my system breaks and then hopefully, they will deal with me on upgrading to a HD system..

So to paraphrase, I don't think it is free when i am paying for the service every month. and why would i have to pay up front for a piece of equipment, when in the end, I have to give the equipment back And I cant call and say, hey D*, for my money, could I get a HR23 (that I am more informed of now becaulse of this site) because they are going to tell me that I get what I get.

And if I am reading correctly if I go and get the dvr that i want, then I will have to pay for installation.

So for me to get back to the Tivo that I started with, and get hd, i will have to wait another year. I did not know about the Tivo and i was just going to just upgrade to a HD DVR. Then DBSTalks threw a wrench in there and told me about the Tivo coming back, and i want Tivo so i called D*. I was told that if I wanted HD now, I would have to pay the upfront cost now, and when Tivo is released, I would have to turn that box in and pay up front for the Tivo box.

I love D*, but this is driving me crazy. why cant they just have one box, and you pay for the features that you want. and then after lets say 3-4 years, you can get an upgrade to new hardware, kind of like a pc. you can upgrade all that you want with software, but at some point you need a hardware upgrade.

I upgrade to get a larger HDD, because I could not just get a larger HDD
Now I want to upgrade to HD, but I have to get a new system. 
if i get the HD box, then when Tivo comes back, i have to get another hardware upgrade.

enough with the hardwar upgrades, cant we do some of these things with software updates, or is the technology not there?

can anyone tell me the cheapest route to go and still get HD now, and then get tivo when it comes out. thanking any suggestions in advance.

Bill


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> ... I said "all I can say" and that is all I can say. You likely know by now that we are not permitted to say everything we are told or surmise. So we do the best we can.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


My question is, if our current HRs will soon have some features that are "better than" the features that the new DirecTiVo will have one year from now, what does that tell you about the prospect of the "new DirecTiVo"?

The above question does not attempt to ask you to reveal anything more than you have to say about the details you are not allowed to say, I am only asking for your opinion in a general term.

I digress on all other points.


----------



## Doug Brott

bbanks69 said:


> enough with the hardwar upgrades, cant we do some of these things with software updates, or is the technology not there?


If you get the DIRECTV HD DVR, you do not then later have to get the TiVo .. You will have the choice if the plan of record turns into reality. But the HR2x will continue to work once the TiVo is available.



> can anyone tell me the cheapest route to go and still get HD now, and then get tivo when it comes out. thanking any suggestions in advance.


If you know you want both HD and TiVo, then your cheapest route will certainly be to just wait for the TiVo to become available. "purchasing" the box is now really leasing it. Many cable companies charge $15/box per month. DIRECTV charges much less per month, but collects a larger fee at the beginning. So your "purchase" is just that a fee that you are paying up front. The TiVo will almost certainly fall into the same category.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> Well my sincere apology for mis-speaking, no I did not mean D* will not honor the contract, rather that D* had not shown any interest in seeing this new DirecTiVo come to reality, the deal that the new D*TiVo should be, a new DVR that is indeed new by the 2010 standards.
> 
> And a year from now, the new DVR will not likely be based on some 4-year-old HR platform, there will be no obligation on D*'s part to help provide a new platform so that TiVo may port its new features to it to make it worth paying another $5 to $10/mo. for.
> 
> Most people here are insisting the new D*TIVO will be based on the same HR platform, will not be hard to develop, nor will it cost more. The reason you all try to limit it is precisely because we all realize D* made no meaningful commitment in this agreement. It will be easy for D* to be out of it because it is unrealistic to expect that a new TiVo DVR sometime in 2010 will be just based on some 4-year-old DVR hardware platform.
> 
> But since D* is not obligated to offer anything more than that, either that new DVR will not worth the so called "significant higher fee", or if really to be "new" to deserve that higher fee, there is no obligation on the D* part to fulfill it.


 Fair enough.

However, I have to disagree. IMHO the very fact that last September DirecTV entered into a new agreement with TiVo is DirecTV showing interest.

Heck, it's only been six months since the agreement so I'm not sure there's been any indication of DirecTV having a lack of interest.

The fact that they negotiated and came to an agreement is the very definition of showing interest&#8230;.at least in my eyes for all that's worth anyway. :grin:

As for the new DVR not being based on the HR platform, I'm not sure I can agree with that one either.

TiVo stated in their Dec 10th Quarterly Report...



> On September 3, 2008, we extended our current agreement with DIRECTV for the development, marketing, and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service. Under the terms of this non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with a goal of launching in the second half of calendar year 2009.





> We have agreed to work with DIRECTV to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with a goal of launching and being promoted by DIRECTV in the second half of calendar year 2009.


http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-08-251359

You can see it in these two paragraphs and there are several more throughout.

Besides, none of us can say what's in the HR23. All we know for sure is there are some hardware differences from the earlier HR2x's.

Until we have definitive information as to the chip sets in the HR23, not even you can count it out as either the first HD DirecTiVo or at least the platform upon which it'll be built.

For me this is the most telling quote for the Quarterly Report.



> We face risks in connection with our amended development and services agreements with DIRECTV for the development and deployment of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service.
> 
> We may encounter delays in development under our new agreement with DIRECTV . Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with our goal, but not a contractual obligation, to launch in the second half of calendar year 2009. *We face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product. If we are unable to successfully develop this new broadband-enabled HD DVR with TiVo service for deployment by DIRECTV, we would not be able to acquire new subscribers from DIRECTV under these new agreements and our business could be harmed.


TiVo is supplying software *for* DirecTVs HD DVR. This indicates that TiVo isn't developing a hardware platform but instead using hardware supplied to them.

This is speculation on my part but I take this to mean they are going to attempt to port/write software for existing hardware. Whether it's the HR23 or what ever is the next step, I believe the hardware is being supplied to TiVo by Pace/Thompson/Samsung/LG etc. Although I tend to think it will probably be only one of these manufacturers.

Since we have no direct evidence of what the platform will be we can only go on what we have. For me, taking into account all the info I can find, DirecTV is supplying TiVo with the platform and TiVo has to provide the code.

Speculation on my part? Yes but it's the only conclusion that makes sense to me.

That is unless someone has any information with which to base another opinion. :grin:

Mike


----------



## spartanstew

Tallgntlmn said:


> I want to be able to pause the local news, watch SportsCenter till commercial pause it, and go back to the local news. Rinse and repeat.


I do that exact same thing every night on my HR21. Except, I don't have to hit pause OR play after swapping tuners. Just have to hit the previous button every time I want to switch: the pause and play are automatically done. In your particular instance, the "workaround" is better than DLB.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> My question is, if our current HRs will soon have some features that are "better than" the features that the new DirecTiVo will have one year from now, what does that tell you about the prospect of the "new DirecTiVo"?
> 
> The above question does not attempt to ask you to reveal anything more than you have to say about the details you are not allowed to say, I am only asking for your opinion in a general term.
> 
> I digress on all other points.


It tells me that DIRECTV is willing to have multiple products of similar nature that aim for slightly different market segments. Today you can get an SD DVR or an HD DVR. Next year you can get an HD DVR with DIRECTV software or an HD DVR with TiVo software.

And DIRECTV is committed and obligated to go after the whole higher end market, so it makes sense to represent a larger market share that will be looking for the TiVo brand name as well as the normal HD DVR Plus line.

And yes, the better than "DLB" is expected for the entire HR2x line.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> ...And yes, the better than "DLB" is expected for the entire HR2x line.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Unfortunately you did not really answer my question. My question is, what do you think of *the prospect of* the new TiVo DVR *one year from now*, if, as you have implied, the current D*'s own HR lines will soon have *better features* than the "new TiVo DVRs" *might have one year from now,* when taking into the consideration that the new TiVo to be available one year from now will incur "significantly higher fees"?

What do you think of "the prospect"?


----------



## wingrider01

Steve said:


> TiVo's Rogers said publicly last week they were shooting for end of '09 for DirecTV deployment.
> 
> /steve





Doug Brott said:


> Just for clarity, wasn't the actually comment "later this year?" The press release (from last September) said 2H 2009. Aren't those the "official" word?


Thought the comment made was more along the lines of "focused on DirecTV "later part of the year"" not that it would be deployed then


----------



## Steve

wingrider01 said:


> Thought the comment made was more along the lines of "focused on DirecTV "later part of the year"" not that it would be deployed then


I listened to the audio and thought the context in which he said it was implying we'd see it in the later part of this year, but you could be right. /steve


----------



## erosroadie

harsh said:


> I've been a supporter of the idea that the TiVo software will run on existing hardware from the beginning. I was just wondering where you got your four year old platform claim since it has only been fully implemented for a little over two years.


Had a DirecTV rep at Sam's Club yesterday claim that there will be a new HR23 coming out in 3-4 months that will run on the TiVo platform....


----------



## Steve

erosroadie said:


> Had a DirecTV rep at Sam's Club yesterday claim that there will be a new HR23 coming out in 3-4 months that will run on the TiVo platform....


I believe the HR23 part. 3-4 months too soon, tho, based on Rogers' recent comments (at least the way I interpret them). /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

erosroadie said:


> Had a DirecTV rep at Sam's Club yesterday claim that there will be a new HR23 coming out in 3-4 months that will run on the TiVo platform....


I see the rep is joining in our speculation 

I'm sure that 3-4 months is too early ..


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Unfortunately you did not really answer my question. My question is, what do you think of *the prospect of* the new TiVo DVR *one year from now*, if, as you have implied, the current D*'s own HR lines will soon have *better features* than the "new TiVo DVRs" *might have one year from now,* when taking into the consideration that the new TiVo to be available one year from now will incur "significantly higher fees"?
> 
> What do you think of "the prospect"?


The "significantly higher fees" are what DIRECTV pays TiVo. There has been no indication whatsoever what the customer fee will be. The customer will likely pay anywhere from zero to $10/receiver or account. My guess (purely a guess) is that it will be a $5/account upcharge. Meaning a TiVo subscriber would pay standard rates + HD fee + DVR fee + TiVo fee .. someone that uses the HR2x would only pay the DVR fee.

Now to more easily market it, the DVR fee + TiVo fee may simply be $11/account instead of $6/account.

How successful will the TiVo be? Personally, I think it will have some success, but I do not think that it will be remotely close to the HR2x in terms of sales/use .. But those folks that are staunch TiVo fans will have an option to return to DIRECTV or upgrade to HD service.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> I see the rep is joining in our speculation
> 
> I'm sure that 3-4 months is too early ..


Too early for the HR23? Maybe not.

Too early for the new DirecTiVo? Maybe.

If what he said is true from a D* rep, then yes this could be the first confirmation I have ever heard from D*.

Will the HR23 be the same "new whole house DVR" D* was talking about they are working on for release in 2010?


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> [...]But those folks that are staunch TiVo fans will have an option to return to DIRECTV or upgrade to HD service.


FWIW, there were almost 2.9 million DirecTiVo users in 2006. (See page 348 of this Google book excerpt.)

At the time, DirecTV subs represented almost 2/3 (*!*) of all TiVo subscribers. That's why I believe an MPEG-4 DirecTiVo has to be job #1 inside TiVo headquarters. Just my .02. /steve


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> The "significantly higher fees" are what DIRECTV pays TiVo. There has been no indication whatsoever what the customer fee will be. The customer will likely pay anywhere from zero to $10/receiver or account. My guess (purely a guess) is that it will be a $5/account upcharge. Meaning a TiVo subscriber would pay standard rates + HD fee + DVR fee + TiVo fee .. someone that uses the HR2x would only pay the DVR fee.
> 
> Now to more easily market it, the DVR fee + TiVo fee may simply be $11/account instead of $6/account.
> 
> How successful will the TiVo be? Personally, I think it will have some success, but I do not think that it will be remotely close to the HR2x in terms of sales/use .. But those folks that are staunch TiVo fans will have an option to return to DIRECTV or upgrade to HD service.


If you believe D* may swallow the "significantly higher fee" just so a small number of TiVo users can be satisfied, then I think it is fair to say D* will also evaluate how this sub base will be a year from now.

We know from TiVo's own numbers, their sub base had gone from 2007's 4.4 million, to the current 3.3 million, apparently most TiVo subs are just like you and me, who do not pay for TiVo for the sake of that TiVo label.


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> FWIW, there were almost 2.8 million DirecTiVo users in 2006. (See page 348 of this Google book excerpt.) /steve


How many are today?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Too early for the HR23? Maybe not.
> 
> Too early for the new DirecTiVo? Maybe.


Uh, the HR23 is already out .. The HR23 with TiVo? Definitely not out and won't be out in 3-4 months and may not even be on the HR23.



> If what he said is true from a D* rep, then yes this could be the first confirmation I have ever heard from D*.


:shrug: .. whatever  ..



> Will the HR23 be the same "new whole house DVR" D* was talking about they are working on for release in 2010?


I don't think anyone here can answer this question .. the best answer is probably "maybe, but unlikely."


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If you believe D* may swallow the "significantly higher fee" just so a small number of TiVo users can be satisfied, then I think it is fair to say D* will also evaluate how this sub base will be a year from now.
> 
> We know from TiVo's own numbers, their sub base had gone from 2007's 4.4 million, to the current 3.3 million, apparently most TiVo subs are just like you and me, who do not pay for TiVo for the sake of that TiVo label.


The old fee was $1/account .. personally I believe that $5/account is significantly higher especially since the $1/account used to come from DIRECTV's cut .. I'm saying the $5/account will be extra and will be a pass-thru charge. It won't cost DIRECTV a penny under my scenario as all costs will be passed to the customer ..


----------



## DarinC

jacmyoung said:


> We know from TiVo's own numbers, their sub base had gone from 2007's 4.4 million, to the current 3.3 million, apparently most TiVo subs are just like you and me, who do not pay for TiVo for the sake of that TiVo label.


I don't quite understand what you are trying to extrapolate from that. If I'm not mistaken, TiVo is a premium (extra $$) if you're a Comcast customer (and certainly a premium if you are applying a generic TiVo to another service). There currently isn't an option to pay a premium if you're a DirecTV customer, but the current TiVo offering on DirecTV is essentially dead, and the TiVo subscriber numbers are dwindling as a result. All of that is the state of the agreements in place with the two largest providers, not really an indication of "choice" by the customers. This poll indicates about 40% of DBSTalk respondents would be willing to pay a premium for TiVo service on DirecTV.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Steve said:


> [...]
> 
> At the time, DirecTV subs represented almost 2/3 (*!*) of all TiVo subscribers. That's why I believe an MPEG-4 DirecTiVo has to be job #1 inside TiVo headquarters. Just my .02. /steve


I so agree with you on this one.

Since they stated in their Quarterly Report...



> *We face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product*


This leads me to believe that they are working on an existing DirecTV platform(whether or not we've seen it is another story) and as such they have to be putting their full force into overcoming those obstacles.

Mike


----------



## CorpITGuy

MicroBeta said:


> This leads me to believe that they are working on an existing DirecTV platform(whether or not we've seen it is another story) and as such they have to be putting their full force into overcoming those obstacles.


That does make sense, doesn't it? I can't wait. Well, I guess I can. I'll have to wait. 

I might pay $3-5 per receiver to get the TiVO software/service... but then again, the software from D* on my HR22-100 just keeps getting better. I may not care when they finally get the TiVO software developed. :shrug:


----------



## Steve

Ya. Here's the full text of the "cover their butt" statement in the December SEC report. Good news is they *did not* see the need to repeat these cautionary words in the March SEC report, issued just last week. /steve

_"*We face risks in connection with our amended development and services agreements with DIRECTV for the development and deployment of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service.*
We may encounter delays in development under our new agreement with DIRECTV . Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with our goal, but not a contractual obligation, to launch in the second half of calendar year 2009. We face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product. If we are unable to successfully develop this new broadband-enabled HD DVR with TiVo service for deployment by DIRECTV, we would not be able to acquire new subscribers from DIRECTV under these new agreements and our business could be harmed."_


----------



## wingrider01

jacmyoung said:


> Too early for the HR23? Maybe not.
> 
> Too early for the new DirecTiVo? Maybe.
> 
> If what he said is true from a D* rep, then yes this could be the first confirmation I have ever heard from D*.
> 
> Will the HR23 be the same "new whole house DVR" D* was talking about they are working on for release in 2010?


If he/she was anything like the Directv "reps" they put in the local stores here I am surprised they even knew what TIVO is. Unless you get some different type of rep, they are sales weasels only and have no idea of tech. One swore up and down that the H21 was a dvr the last time they where at the local retailer


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Uh, the HR23 is already out .. The HR23 with TiVo? Definitely not out and won't be out in 3-4 months and may not even be on the HR23.


Is the HR23 substantially the same as the current HRXXs?



> :shrug: .. whatever  ..


What did you mean, that my above statement was wrong or what?



> I don't think anyone here can answer this question .. the best answer is probably "maybe, but unlikely."


If you can answer my first question above, then I think you should be able to answer this question.


----------



## jacmyoung

wingrider01 said:


> If he/she was anything like the Directv "reps" they put in the local stores here I am surprised they even knew what TIVO is. Unless you get some different type of rep, they are sales weasels only and have no idea of tech. One swore up and down that the H21 was a dvr the last time they where at the local retailer


That is why I said "if true"


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> ...It won't cost DIRECTV a penny under my scenario as all costs will be passed to the customer ..


And how would that make you feel, when you, as most D* DVR subs do not see the need to have a TiVo DVR, the HRs are just fine for most of us?


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> Ya. Here's the full text of the "cover their butt" statement in the December SEC report. Good news is they *did not* see the need to repeat these cautionary words in the March SEC report, issued just last week. /steve
> 
> _"*We face risks in connection with our amended development and services agreements with DIRECTV for the development and deployment of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service.*
> We may encounter delays in development under our new agreement with DIRECTV . Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with our goal, but not a contractual obligation, to launch in the second half of calendar year 2009. We face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product. If we are unable to successfully develop this new broadband-enabled HD DVR with TiVo service for deployment by DIRECTV, we would not be able to acquire new subscribers from DIRECTV under these new agreements and our business could be harmed."_


This TiVo's statement sure did not say if they are *prevented* from delivering this new product, D* would have failed to fulfill their obligations, did they?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> And how would that make you feel, when you, as most D* DVR subs do not see the need to have a TiVo DVR, the HRs are just fine for most of us?


Why would I care? And since when has it mattered to you how I feel?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Is the HR23 substantially the same as the current HRXXs?


Yes



> What did you mean, that my above statement was wrong or what?


I didn't think your comment needed a reply .. "If what he said is true from a D* rep, then yes this could be the first confirmation I have ever heard from D*." .. It seems clear to me that the rep was trying to make a sale and either didn't have real information (making it up) or was confused about what has been announced.



> If you can answer my first question above, then I think you should be able to answer this question.


No it cannot be answered .. Theoretically a collection of HR2x using collaborative scheduling could be equivalent to a big whole-home DVR .. I don't think anyone here knows which it will be. So my original answer is quite relevant .. "maybe, but unlikely."


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> This TiVo's statement sure did not say if they are *prevented* from delivering this new product, D* would have failed to fulfill their obligations, did they?


Yes .. TiVo has obligations as well .. If TiVo doesn't bring the product to Market how is that necessarily any indication of whether or not DIRECTV fulfilled their obligations? .. Duh!

But don't worry, if TiVo fails to deliver there will be plenty of folks that lay the blame on DIRECTV.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Tom Robertson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...And yes, the better than "DLB" is expected for the entire HR2x line.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately you did not really answer my question. My question is, what do you think of *the prospect of* the new TiVo DVR *one year from now*, if, as you have implied, the current D*'s own HR lines will soon have *better features* than the "new TiVo DVRs" *might have one year from now,* when taking into the consideration that the new TiVo to be available one year from now will incur "significantly higher fees"?
> 
> What do you think of "the prospect"?
Click to expand...

If you are going to quote me, at least read the whole post from which you excerpt. 


Tom Robertson said:


> *It tells me that DIRECTV is willing to have multiple products of similar nature that aim for slightly different market segments. Today you can get an SD DVR or an HD DVR. Next year you can get an HD DVR with DIRECTV software or an HD DVR with TiVo software. *
> 
> And DIRECTV is committed and obligated to go after the whole higher end market, so it makes sense to represent a larger market share that will be looking for the TiVo brand name as well as the normal HD DVR Plus line.
> 
> And yes, the better than "DLB" is expected for the entire HR2x line.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Yes


Thank you!



> I didn't think your comment needed a reply .. "If what he said is true from a D* rep, then yes this could be the first confirmation I have ever heard from D*." .. It seems clear to me that the rep was trying to make a sale and either didn't have real information (making it up) or was confused about what has been announced.


That is definitely a better answer than that "whatever" Even better than what I had tried to speculate what that rep was saying. Basically you are saying he did not know what he was talking about.



> No it cannot be answered .. Theoretically a collection of HR2x using collaborative scheduling could be equivalent to a big whole-home DVR .. I don't think anyone here knows which it will be. So my original answer is quite relevant .. "maybe, but unlikely."


The new DVR server D* had been saying in 2010 will be a new one that can support multiple clients in a server/clients MRV setting, not the same as the current HR/H MRV as it seems evident the current single HR cannot serve more than one H box at a time.

If the HR23 is substantially the same as the current old HRs, yes, one can speculate that the HR23 is not likely that new DVR server D* was talking about in 2010.


----------



## spartanstew

MicroBeta said:


> Or are you just blowing smoke, in which case you have nothing meaningful to contribute to this discussion and I can ignore you?


Ding, ding. We have a winner.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> If you are going to quote me, at least read the whole post from which you excerpt.


That is because my question was only related to your first quote, not the later quote.

You seemed to say from the first quote that our current HR lines will receive something better than "DLB" soon, the same "DLB" that the NEW TiVo might try to have one year from now.

My question was, if our own existing HR lines can get a "better" feature soon, and the NEW TiVo will only possibly have that feature one year from now, what that single statement make you fell about the prospect of the new TiVo one year from now.

All the other quotes you said did not address my single question. I know D* is trying to have many choices for its subs, I did not ask you that, we all know that.

But as you have implied, our very own existing HR lines will get some better features soon, than that new TiVo might get one year from now, I will answer the question for you if you do not feel like it.

No, it does not speak well for that new TiVo box which D* will have to pay a "significantly higher fee" to deploy one year from now.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> The new DVR server D* had been saying in 2010 will be a new one that can support multiple clients in a server/clients MRV setting, not the same as the current HR/H MRV as it seems evident the current single HR cannot serve more than one H box at a time.


Using the beta version as a definitive source for what the released version will look like could lead to incorrect results.



> If the HR23 is substantially the same as the current old HRs, yes, one can speculate that the HR23 is not likely that new DVR server D* was talking about in 2010.


Not necessarily as software is a powerful tool that you seem to want to neglect. A collaborative system would scale much better in terms of both cost and performance. DIRECTV does, after all, still have to sell these things and a super-mongo box with a super-mongo price might not go over well with the general populace.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Yes .. TiVo has obligations as well .. If TiVo doesn't bring the product to Market how is that necessarily any indication of whether or not DIRECTV fulfilled their obligations? .. Duh!
> 
> But don't worry, if TiVo fails to deliver there will be plenty of folks that lay the blame on DIRECTV.


Of course TiVo can fail, but if so do you believe TiVo will have not fulfilled its own obligations? If so what will be the consequences of that?

What if D* fails? Can you then insist D* will have not fulfilled its own obligations? If so, what will be the consequences of that?

What TiVo is saying, the project can fail, and if so, they are not pointing fingers to one party or the other, or both. This agreement does not guarantee that it will succeed.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Using the beta version as a definitive source for what the released version will look like could lead to incorrect results.
> 
> Not necessarily as software is a powerful tool that you seem to want to neglect. A collaborative system would scale much better in terms of both cost and performance. DIRECTV does, after all, still have to sell these things and a super-mongo box with a super-mongo price might not go over well with the general populace.


Agree with you on both, which is why when one speculate, one does not say "definitely", rather "likely" or not.


----------



## Tom Robertson

If the DIRECTV-TiVo _only_ adds DLB "above" the current HR2x, then your surmise is possible--sorta...

Yet, there are some of us who feel the HR2x already has some features better than the TiVo family. But until the HR2x has ALL the features of the TiVo, there always will be someone who values the TiVos more. (Right now that would include DLB, TiVo-MRV, TiVo2Go, the TiVo-Desktop, suggestions, yahoo scheduling, swivel search, etc.) [personal opinion, I'd be happy for any of these features, but only DLB is a personal favorite of mine--that I have a workaround for that only costs $5/month with more tuners and more storage space...]

Then there is the whole user-interface question. There are some people who like the TiVo interface much better. Or philosophy. Or something intangible. They are very strong and appreciative fans of the TiVos.

I'm happy for them, that DIRECTV is supplying that need. That will lead to an innovative competition that will benefit everyone--and they still can stay with DIRECTV! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> If the DIRECTV-TiVo _only_ adds DLB "above" the current HR2x, then your surmise is possible--sorta...
> 
> Yet, there are some of us who feel the HR2x already has some features better than the TiVo family. But until the HR2x has ALL the features of the TiVo, there always will be someone who values the TiVos more. (Right now that would include DLB, TiVo-MRV, TiVo2Go, the TiVo-Desktop, suggestions, yahoo scheduling, swivel search, etc.) [personal opinion, I'd be happy for any of these features, but only DLB is a personal favorite of mine--that I have a workaround for that only costs $5/month with more tuners and more storage space...]
> 
> Then there is the whole user-interface question. There are some people who like the TiVo interface much better. Or philosophy. Or something intangible. They are very strong and appreciative fans of the TiVos.
> 
> I'm happy for them, that DIRECTV is supplying that need. That will lead to an innovative competition that will benefit everyone--and they still can stay with DIRECTV!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I agree.

I was only using that single statement as an example of why many many others may see no point of having that new TiVo, if our own HR lines can continue to improve, especially if you consider the possibility that all of us might have to pay for that "significantly higher fee" for D* to keep that group of TiVo folks happy.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

To each his (or her) own. So long as TiVo's idea of progress is popping ads up when you press pause (a feature they were actually *bragging about* at CES) I'll stay with my HR23, thanks.

To paraphrase Mr. Young above, I may see no point of having that new TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Of course TiVo can fail, but if so do you believe TiVo will have not fulfilled its own obligations? If so what will be the consequences of that?
> 
> What if D* fails? Can you then insist D* will have not fulfilled its own obligations? If so, what will be the consequences of that?
> 
> What TiVo is saying, the project can fail, and if so, they are not pointing fingers to one party or the other, or both. This agreement does not guarantee that it will succeed.


Each will have consequences .. Remember Patents are probably the root of this issue. I haven't seen the contract and probably never will .. but in the event TiVo fails then the consequence is "they don't get any money from DIRECTV." In the event DIRECTV fails (causing TiVo to fail) there is probably a clause which would cost DIRECTV .. perhaps a lot. It could be as strong as converting all HR2x installed to licensed receivers (meaning a per-receiver or per-subscriber fee for those to TiVo) or it could be a simple payment of some amount of money.

Either way, it's like any contract .. you either do what you say you are going to do or suffer the consequence of not doing it. The consequence is almost certainly much, much worse than doing what you originally agreed to.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> ...but in the event TiVo fails then the consequence is "they don't get any money from DIRECTV." In the event DIRECTV fails (causing TiVo to fail) there is probably a clause which would cost DIRECTV .. perhaps a lot. It could be as strong as converting all HR2x installed to licensed receivers (meaning a per-receiver or per-subscriber fee for those to TiVo) or it could be a simple payment of some amount of money...


That sure sounded like a very one-sided contract, almost sounded like some kind of settlement agreement after TiVo winning a big patent lawsuit against D* already


----------



## bbanks69

jacmyoung said:


> Thank you!
> 
> HR cannot serve more than one H box at a time.


are you all saying that if I have an HR in one room, and an H in the other, i can watch a show off of the HR on the H,

My question is, can I schedule a show on the HR, from the H, and then later watch it?


----------



## Tom Robertson

bbanks69 said:


> are you all saying that if I have an HR in one room, and an H in the other, i can watch a show off of the HR on the H,
> 
> My question is, can I schedule a show on the HR, from the H, and then later watch it?


Yes, you can watch on the HR and another show delivered from the HR on the H.

We expect remote scheduling from the H will be a required feature of the whole home DVR concept, tho we do not have any details yet.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bbanks69

Tom Robertson said:


> [personal opinion, I'd be happy for any of these features, but only DLB is a personal favorite of mine--that I have a workaround for that only costs $5/month with more tuners and more storage space...]
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom are you saying that you have a work around for the DLB right NOW, please Enlighten me if I am hearing you correctly, Thanks

Bill


----------



## Jhon69

bbanks69 said:


> Tom are you saying that you have a work around for the DLB right NOW, please Enlighten me if I am hearing you correctly, Thanks
> 
> Bill


You run 2 HDDVRs on one HDTV.:sure:


----------



## Tom Robertson

bbanks69 said:


> Tom are you saying that you have a work around for the DLB right NOW, please Enlighten me if I am hearing you correctly, Thanks
> 
> Bill


During the NFL season, 3 DVRs, one medium sized screen (65") and two computer monitors (21"). Dual Pictures Outside Picture with 6 tuners, 1TB (or more) recording space and lots of wire in the back 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bbanks69

Doug Brott said:


> Each will have consequences .. Remember Patents are probably the root of this issue. I haven't seen the contract and probably never will .. but in the event TiVo fails then the consequence is "they don't get any money from DIRECTV." In the event DIRECTV fails (causing TiVo to fail) there is probably a clause which would cost DIRECTV .. perhaps a lot. It could be as strong as converting all HR2x installed to licensed receivers (meaning a per-receiver or per-subscriber fee for those to TiVo) or it could be a simple payment of some amount of money.
> 
> Either way, it's like any contract .. you either do what you say you are going to do or suffer the consequence of not doing it. The consequence is almost certainly much, much worse than doing what you originally agreed to.


Does any one know, how long Tivo's patents have before all of the features are open game for all, D*, D*h, and cable?


----------



## Jhon69

bbanks69 said:


> Does any one know, how long Tivo's patents have before all of the features are open game for all, D*, D*h, and cable?


Well DirecTV resigned with Tivo till 2015 with an option till 2018 other than that no clue.


----------



## bbanks69

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, you can watch on the HR and another show delivered from the HR on the H.
> 
> We expect remote scheduling from the H will be a required feature of the whole home DVR concept, tho we do not have any details yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


tom since I can not schedule shows on the H, can I serve to another HR, so that i have the best of both worlds.

and I am sorry if some of my questions have already been answered, but this site has such a wealth of information, I am trying to catch up, but it will not take long.

I used to be, and still am, a pc junkie, now I am a Video, specifically a d* Junkie.

None of this would have happened if my SO did not purchase an XBox recently, and although I am not into gaming, the Medea sharing has just got me going crazy with the sharing concept, I want it all. this is a big deal for me, because I am just a techie at heart. Thanks for your help Tom *"The Man"*


----------



## Tom Robertson

bbanks69, I'm going to point you to this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=153336

It should have all your questions discussed (not answered yet, but at least discussed.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken_F

bbanks69 said:


> Does any one know, how long Tivo's patents have before all of the features are open game for all, D*, D*h, and cable?


Most of TiVo's patents expire between 2015 and 2020. The time warp patent expires in 2018.

The length of DirecTV's contract is not a coincidence.


----------



## bbanks69

Jhon69 said:


> You run 2 HDDVRs on one HDTV.:sure:





Tom Robertson said:


> During the NFL season, 3 DVRs, one medium sized screen (65") and two computer monitors (21"). Dual Pictures Outside Picture with 6 tuners, 1TB (or more) recording space and lots of wire in the back
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Damn, sorry for the languge, but, How do you control all of this equipment, remote wise? seems like a lot of pausing and continuing.


----------



## bbanks69

Tom Robertson said:


> bbanks69, I'm going to point you to this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=153336
> 
> It should have all your questions discussed (not answered yet, but at least discussed.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thank you so much again Tom


----------



## bbanks69

Ken_F said:


> Most of TiVo's patents expire between 2015 and 2020. The time warp patent expires in 2018.
> 
> The length of DirecTV's contract is not a coincidence.


I see why Tivo is such a big deal to the MEDIA giants, that is a long time


----------



## Tom Robertson

bbanks69 said:


> Damn, sorry for the languge, but, How do you control all of this equipment, remote wise? seems like a lot of pausing and continuing.


I don't pause, I let it go  (I don't believe in watching football time shifted.)

But I have 2 Packer remotes which helps. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bbanks69

bbanks69 said:


> Thank you so much again Tom





Tom Robertson said:


> bbanks69, I'm going to point you to this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=153336
> 
> It should have all your questions discussed (not answered yet, but at least discussed.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Now I am reading the posts for the site you sent me to, this site is crazy, how do you keep up, i thought that I was getting good info, know i realize that I am not going to get a lot of sleep. but thanks for pointing me to the other threads.


----------



## Doug Brott

Probably time to get :backtotop ..


----------



## bbanks69

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't pause, I let it go  (I don't believe in watching football time shifted.)
> 
> But I have 2 Packer remotes which helps.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I really liked you, up until now, Packers, let me back up, I'm a Ram's fan, go figure..................


----------



## bbanks69

Doug Brott said:


> Probably time to get :backtotop ..


Sorry Doug, thanks for keepeing me in line, because the topic is what i come here for. but can I say, this all is so COOL.


----------



## Jhon69

Ken_F said:


> Most of TiVo's patents expire between 2015 and 2020. The time warp patent expires in 2018.
> 
> The length of DirecTV's contract is not a coincidence.


So does that mean after that time Tivo cannot reapply the patent(s)?


----------



## HDinMA

Has anyone signed up for the news emails?

http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html

I am looking for the latest info on the new receiver. Has anyone heard when it will be available and perhaps what it will cost? What about functionality? Anything??


----------



## kiljoy

Tom Robertson said:


> If the DIRECTV-TiVo _only_ adds DLB "above" the current HR2x, then your surmise is possible--sorta...
> 
> Yet, there are some of us who feel the HR2x already has some features better than the TiVo family. But until the HR2x has ALL the features of the TiVo, there always will be someone who values the TiVos more. (Right now that would include DLB, TiVo-MRV, TiVo2Go, the TiVo-Desktop, suggestions, yahoo scheduling, swivel search, etc.) [personal opinion, I'd be happy for any of these features, but only DLB is a personal favorite of mine--that I have a workaround for that only costs $5/month with more tuners and more storage space...]
> 
> Then there is the whole user-interface question. There are some people who like the TiVo interface much better. Or philosophy. Or something intangible. They are very strong and appreciative fans of the TiVos.
> 
> I'm happy for them, that DIRECTV is supplying that need. That will lead to an innovative competition that will benefit everyone--and they still can stay with DIRECTV!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


This is a pretty good outlook and I think one that even we TiVo zealots can get behind. The fact that I'll have a choice when this box comes out has made me a lot more forgiving on the HR2x's flaws. Right now I'm in a situation where one of my SD TiVos has died and the other has become unreliable (due to a failing LNB I can't get to until winter is over when I'll replace the dish with a slimline). While I'm going to hold off upgrading to HD until more details are firmed up with the new box, now I'm no longer dreading having to forsake TiVo to do so knowing that if worse comes to worst and I have to go the HR2x route that I'll be married to it.

It's obvious from reading these boards that the HR2x series has some pretty nifty features that I might even like after some time spent with them. My biggest worry has always been that I'd be jumping ship with no hope of returning. That made me bitter even before the jump because I had to give up something I love for something that only _may_ be better so I wasn't willing to acknowledge the positives that could be realized for doing so. Now that I know I'll be able to see what TiVo zealots say about the new box on the TiVoCommunity and what the HR2x backers say about it here once it comes out, I can be confident in my decision.

And above all, I can now be sure I'm sticking with DirecTV who have been very good to me.

Tony


----------



## jacmyoung

kiljoy said:


> ... Now that I know I'll be able to see what TiVo zealots say about the new box on the TiVoCommunity and what the HR2x backers say about it here once it comes out, I can be confident in my decision...


There are plenty of "TiVo zealots" commenting on the new TiVo here too so you don't really need to read from two sources

But I agree another good indication of how real this new TiVo is may be judged by how much can "TiVo zealots" say about it, here or in the TiVo Community.


----------



## harsh

Jhon69 said:


> So does that mean after that time Tivo cannot reapply the patent(s)?


You can only invent something once.


----------



## Jhon69

harsh said:


> You can only invent something once.


I'm talking about to keep the patent(s) protected from others using it without compensation.


----------



## trainman

Jhon69 said:


> I'm talking about to keep the patent(s) protected from others using it without compensation.


Patents can't be renewed -- that's why, for example, there are so many "generic" medications available at your local pharmacy.

But by 2018, TiVo may well have come up with some exciting new must-have functionality that they can take out another patent on. (Of course, DirecTV's HRxx developers could do the same thing...or the programmers working on any other DVR...)


----------



## jacmyoung

Actually patent protection can be extended, but you are right there has to be some very good justifications or new invention involved.


----------



## dcborn61

FYI, called today to cancel DirecTV in favor of FiOS I had installed yesterday. I mentioned that one of the factors in the cancellation was the current DVR and that I was very happy with the DirecTivos.

She offered to suspend my account for 6 months, as she said the new DirecTivos should be coming out in September or October.

Told her I would definitely consider switching back when they come out, but I'd bet a fair amount her estimate on the timing is optimistic.


----------



## Doug Brott

You know, September or October fits the time line that TiVo has suggested, but if that happens .. I will be shocked.


----------



## Steve

dcborn61 said:


> [...]I'd bet a fair amount her estimate on the timing is optimistic.


I know I'm alone in thinking this, but given what's at stake for TiVo here, I'd bet that fall of this year is the latest they'd like to deliver.

Otherwise, once the remaining MPEG-2 channels go away, HR10 HD subscribers without OTA are going to have no choice except to switch to HR2x's, or to leave DirecTV for a more expensive cablecard-TiVoHD solution. /steve


----------



## johnp37

Doug Brott said:


> You know, September or October fits the time line that TiVo has suggested, but if that happens .. I will be shocked.


My own personal opinion for what it's worth is we will not be seeing these until sometime in Q1 of 2010 if even then. Sorry to rain on everybody's parade. I just hope there is thorough R&D and QC before release, something that was not done with the first gen. HRxx back in '06. Directv's attitude then was get it out the door, any problems we'll fix with a wagonload of software fixes which is exactly what happened.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> Otherwise, once the remaining MPEG-2 channels go away, HR10 HD subscribers without OTA are going to have no choice except to switch to HR2x's, or to leave DirecTV for a more expensive cablecard-TiVoHD solution. /steve


More expensive by about $50 upfront. I think last time I checked Newegg had the Series 3 for $249. Granted, the cable bill will likely be more than D*. But at least there is no commitment and you can eBay the Series 3 as soon as D* releases the new TiVo based receiver. I thought about that route, but Comcast's picture has so much macroblocking that I cannot watch it. It annoys me. I was telling my buddy how bad that picture looked and he could not see what I was seeing, that lucky guy.


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> More expensive by about $50 upfront.


Actually, I think you can buy the TiVoHD's for $199 in some places. That said, I've seen several posts by folks who are getting HR2x deals from DirecTV for $99. I suspect when the next DirecTiVo does come out, there will probably be a "special offer" for folks who want to upgrade their HR10's.

If you leave DirecTV for TiVo, on top of your cable package cost, you'll have to pay a monthly $13/fee to TiVo for each box you want listings for, plus the cablecard rental costs. If you need two cards for 2-tuner recording capability, that's probably going to be another $4/month. So you'll have a potential $17/month per TiVo cost above and beyond what you'll pay the cableco. /steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> Actually, I think you can buy the TiVoHD's for $199 in some places. That said, I've seen several posts by folks who are getting HR2x deals from DirecTV for $99.


Yeah, I think TiVo now has refurbs for $199. D* offered me a deal to upgrade that's "better than that." Last night I missed 41 minutes of a show because it was recording on my bad tuner. I am very tempted to take the offer. Yes, the lack of DLB is making me hesitant. If they would just add that...but I digress. The whole thing last night bothered me. I was rather upset that I didn't make sure the focus was on tuner 2 before I left yesterday. I wanted so bad to hold out for the new TiVo-based receiver. That doesn't seem plausible now.


Steve said:


> If you leave DirecTV fo TiVo, on top of your cable package cost, you'll have to pay a monthly $13/fee to TiVo for each box you want listings for, plus the cablecard rental costs. So you'll have a potential $17/month per TiVo cost. /steve


When I looked into it (before I knew for sure the Comcast picture was crap), the TiVo fee and CableCard (dual tuner) fee would have been $15-ish. For 6 months, cable would save me about $30 on TV and internet but after that it would actually raise my costs by about $25. And that's not counting the acquisition cost of the TiVo.


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Otherwise, once the remaining MPEG-2 channels go away, HR10 HD subscribers without OTA are going to have no choice except to switch to HR2x's, or to leave DirecTV for a more expensive cablecard-TiVoHD solution. /steve


I highly doubt that is a concern of Tivo's. There were at it's peak only 250K HR10's out there and by now there are probably well under 50K left, probably 25K and most of those subs probably have at least one MPEG4 DVR as well. Drop in the bucket for anyone really. What Tivo wants to do is "save" the remaining million or so SD DirecTivo users and give them a Tivo upgrade path that stays with DirecTV. At least that is what the CEO said in their conference call.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> I highly doubt that is a concern of Tivo's. There were at it's peak only 250K HR10's out there and by now there are probably well under 50K left, probably 25K and most of those subs probably have at least one MPEG4 DVR as well. Drop in the bucket for anyone really. What Tivo wants to do is "save" the remaining million or so SD DirecTivo users and give them a Tivo upgrade path that stays with DirecTV. At least that is what the CEO said in their conference call.


Excellent point. I forgot about the "SD-Nation"! 

Another reason for TiVo to get cracking, because with the price of HD displays continuing to drop, many of those users are going to itching for HD sooner rather than later. 50" plasmas can now be purchased, delivered and installed for around $1000! /steve


----------



## vicmeldrew

this is me and if i dont get a dvr with dlb - tivo or D type i will be leaving D all together


----------



## Doug Brott

vicmeldrew said:


> this is me and if i dont get a dvr with dlb - tivo or D type i will be leaving D all together


OK .. Thanks for letting us know.


----------



## Doug Brott

johnp37 said:


> My own personal opinion for what it's worth is we will not be seeing these until sometime in Q1 of 2010 if even then.


This is my expectation as well .. given TiVo's past history and the lack of any visible progress at this point.


----------



## Jhon69

For those that think Tivo will take forever to bring out their new HD DirecTivo because of past experiences just remember the game is now changed.Before DirecTV did not have the option they have now(their own in house HDDVR).So Tivo knows the clock is ticking and any delay will result in a possible lost subscriber to the DirecTivo premium service.

The same holds true for the DirecTV DVR+.If DirecTV wants to keep those certain subscribers with their DVR+ DVR service there are those that they will need to bring out that"something better" now to get them!.


----------



## Flyrx7

Good point, as that is in line with my thinking too. Break out the "something better" already and I won't switch to Tivo when it comes, but delay it past the Tivo launch and no telling what will happen.

Actually, upon further reflection, it will speak volumes if D* is unable/unwilling to release the "something better" before the Tivo launch. I can only imagine how many people would stay at that point. If they can't then I could only imagine that it's because they are unable, not unwilling.


----------



## Brennok

Steve said:


> Excellent point. I forgot about the "SD-Nation"!
> 
> Another reason for TiVo to get cracking, because with the price of HD displays continuing to drop, many of those users are going to itching for HD sooner rather than later. 50" plasmas can now be purchased, delivered and installed for around $1000! /steve


I am definitely in SD-Nation along with my mother and my father. Between the three of us we actively use 9 SD Directivos. After playing with the Directv DVR, the R-15, there was no chance I was going to upgrade either of them since I would be supplying the tech support like usual and I didn't feel comfortable using the DVR much less trying to walk them through something over the phone.

I am ready to make the HD jump especially with the horrible center cuts now on SD. For example I was watching Medium from 3/6 and the best was one scene where the parents were talking while laying in opposite ends of the bed and both of their heads were cut off the entire scene. Originally I was holding off until everything I watches was broadcast in HD then I was planning on switching to FIOS since no HD Tivo, but with the HD Tivo announcement I figure I will slowly upgrade the house one TV and Tivo at a time. I can only hope by then everything is pretty much HD so no more stupid HD fee, yeah right.


----------



## Steve

Brennok said:


> I am definitely in SD-Nation along with my mother and my father. Between the three of us we actively use 9 SD Directivos. After playing with the Directv DVR, the R-15, there was no chance I was going to upgrade either of them since I would be supplying the tech support like usual and I didn't feel comfortable using the DVR much less trying to walk them through something over the phone.
> 
> I am ready to make the HD jump especially with the horrible center cuts now on SD. For example I was watching Medium from 3/6 and the best was one scene where the parents were talking while laying in opposite ends of the bed and both of their heads were cut off the entire scene. Originally I was holding off until everything I watches was broadcast in HD then I was planning on switching to FIOS since no HD Tivo, but with the HD Tivo announcement I figure I will slowly upgrade the house one TV and Tivo at a time. I can only hope by then everything is pretty much HD so no more stupid HD fee, yeah right.


So you're an example of how this deal helps DirecTV as well. Sounds like if you didn't know TiVo was on the horizon, you and your parents would have already bolted, costing DirecTV 2 subs. Instead, you're still paying them each month and when they most likely offer you an upgrade deal, they'll get two more 2-year commitments. I wonder how many other subs are holding out same as you?

Someone over in the TiVo forums posted this today in the MPEG-4 DirecTiVo thread. *I have no idea if there's any truth to it:* _"I was told if you try to close out your DirecTV account for issues with your old TiVo DVR they put you on a waiting list of sorts for the new release.."_

/steve


----------



## Brennok

Steve said:


> So you're an example of how this deal helps DirecTV as well. Sounds like if you didn't know TiVo was on the horizon, you and your parents would have already bolted, costing DirecTV 2 subs. Instead, you're still paying them each month and when they most likely offer you an upgrade deal, they'll get two more 2-year commitments. I wonder how many other subs are holding out same as you?
> 
> Someone over in the TiVo forums posted this today in the MPEG-4 DirecTiVo thread. *I have no idea if there's any truth to it:* _"I was told if you try to close out your DirecTV account for issues with your old TiVo DVR they put you on a waiting list of sorts for the new release.."_
> 
> /steve


I knew as soon as every one did and was definitely glad to hear it. I had been debating on what to do since whatever I did my parents would follow. Owning multiple Directivos and having distant SD locals is the main factor for me staying. I know of at least 5 other subs waiting for the HD Directivo who haven't upgraded. I also know a couple people who recently moved and decided to go with Fios so they could get a Tivo until Directv rolled out the new Tivo.


----------



## andunn27

I have an SD DirecTivo. Am I hoping Directv offers me some kind of upgrade option when the new HD tivo is released? Sure, but if not it's not that big of a deal to me. I will buy one if it comes down to it.


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## Tallgntlmn

I would count myself as part of the SD Nation too. However, D* is about to get me as a convert because I have a broken D-TiVo and it wouldn't make sense to fix it. My initial plan was to hold out until the TiVo based receiver comes out. But with Tuner 2 going out in my SD-DVR40, I have no choice but D* upgrade or Comcast with TiVo. The (IMHO) horribleness of Comcast's picture and upfront costs of the HD-TiVo have been a deciding factor. I am still trying to figure out if I can hold out. I don't think I can. 

But you can make a bet as sure as death and taxes that unless D* adds DLB (or whatever Tom calls "better")to the HR2x before TiVo comes out, I will be one of the first in line for one of the TiVo based receivers.


----------



## Jhon69

Tallgntlmn said:


> I would count myself as part of the SD Nation too. However, D* is about to get me as a convert because I have a broken D-TiVo and it wouldn't make sense to fix it. My initial plan was to hold out until the TiVo based receiver comes out. But with Tuner 2 going out in my SD-DVR40, I have no choice but D* upgrade or Comcast with TiVo. The (IMHO) horribleness of Comcast's picture and upfront costs of the HD-TiVo have been a deciding factor. I am still trying to figure out if I can hold out. I don't think I can.
> 
> But you can make a bet as sure as death and taxes that unless D* adds DLB (or whatever Tom calls "better")to the HR2x before TiVo comes out, I will be one of the first in line for one of the TiVo based receivers.


There have been HR10-250s for sell on Ebay(Check the receiver ID with DirecTV before purchase) and pay DirecTV $20. for a new access card and you should be able to wait.:sure:


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Jhon69 said:


> There have been HR10-250s for sell on Ebay(Check the receiver ID with DirecTV before purchase) and pay DirecTV $20. for a new access card and you should be able to wait.:sure:


Had not thought of that. I did look at HR21's on there but not this one. If it works with the 18" dish, and I imagine it does, then I will look into it. Then I could hold out for sure.


----------



## jacmyoung

bonscott87 said:


> I highly doubt that is a concern of Tivo's. There were at it's peak only 250K HR10's out there and by now there are probably well under 50K left, probably 25K and most of those subs probably have at least one MPEG4 DVR as well. Drop in the bucket for anyone really. What Tivo wants to do is "save" the remaining million or so SD DirecTivo users and give them a Tivo upgrade path that stays with DirecTV. At least that is what the CEO said in their conference call.


Exactly what I read from Rogers as well. They should have already written off the DirecTiVo MPEG2 HD subs.

But I just learned each TiVo standalone box cost $13/mo. not per household? I thought E*'s $7 + $6/mo. was outrageous but at least the first box's $7 is waived and you an save some on the second DVR fee too.

This makes D* HD DVR fees look like a charity give away. Hope I did not give D* any idea


----------



## Jhon69

Tallgntlmn said:


> Had not thought of that. I did look at HR21's on there but not this one. If it works with the 18" dish, and I imagine it does, then I will look into it. Then I could hold out for sure.


I like mine.

Yes I just reset it up.The HR10-250 can setup for Round Dish-1 sat./Oval-2 sats./Oval-3 sats.:sure:


----------



## wingrider01

Jhon69 said:


> There have been HR10-250s for sell on Ebay(Check the receiver ID with DirecTV before purchase) and pay DirecTV $20. for a new access card and you should be able to wait.:sure:


Remember will only be OTA for HD over the next few months, the current MPEG2 channels are being turned off


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> I would count myself as part of the SD Nation too. However, D* is about to get me as a convert because I have a broken D-TiVo and it wouldn't make sense to fix it. My initial plan was to hold out until the TiVo based receiver comes out. But with Tuner 2 going out in my SD-DVR40, I have no choice but D* upgrade or Comcast with TiVo. [...]


Just out of curiosity, I wonder what the DirecTV CSR's are scripted to say about the timing of the new DirecTiVo, if you told them that unless they send another TiVo you're gonna switch providers? Have you called them? /steve


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## Que

wingrider01 said:


> Remember will only be OTA for HD over the next few months, the current MPEG2 channels are being turned off


Just the MPEG2 HD channels?? I want to keep my HR10-250, mostly only watch OTA HD anyways. I don't have HD Access. So I can still watch my other SD channels and OTA HD. Nothing will change for me. Right??


----------



## Steve

Que said:


> [...] So I can still watch my other SD channels and OTA HD. Nothing will change for me. Right??


Correct on MPEG-2 SD. And I would assume if not paying the HD access fee isn't stopping you from receiving OTA HD now, that won't change in the future. /steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

wingrider01 said:


> Remember will only be OTA for HD over the next few months, the current MPEG2 channels are being turned off


Yeah, at the moment the HD is not the most important aspect. I am still in SD world and the reason I would want the HD DVR is for the added features that the SD does not have. Not necessarily the HD part yet. 


Steve said:


> Just out of curiosity, I wonder what the DirecTV CSR's are scripted to say about the timing of the new DirecTiVo, if you told them that unless they send another TiVo you're gonna switch providers? Have you called them? /steve


That's a good question. I have not called them with that angle. I did call them and say "my receiver appears to be dead and I need to find out my options." One CSR, said in so many words "you gotta do what you gotta do" when I balked at the $199 cost of the HR2x and said I was going to go to Comcast. Another CSR mentioned that I am eligible for a quite attractive upgrade when the same question was posed. I have to call them again at the very least to upgrade. I will try the TiVo question.


----------



## Jhon69

Tallgntlmn said:


> Yeah, at the moment the HD is not the most important aspect. I am still in SD world and the reason I would want the HD DVR is for the added features that the SD does not have. Not necessarily the HD part yet.
> That's a good question. I have not called them with that angle. I did call them and say "my receiver appears to be dead and I need to find out my options." One CSR, said in so many words "you gotta do what you gotta do" when I balked at the $199 cost of the HR2x and said I was going to go to Comcast. Another CSR mentioned that I am eligible for a quite attractive upgrade when the same question was posed. I have to call them again at the very least to upgrade. I will try the TiVo question.


Think DirecTV will tell you"We don't have one......yet"!.

That's why if you can't live without your DirecTivo it makes sense to pickup a used HR10-250 until the new one comes out.

If you can live without it you would go with the HR2x for HD or the R22 for SD.


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> [...] That's a good question. I have not called them with that angle. [...]


Be great if you could fill us in when you do call. Their response to when you can expect to get another DirecTiVo would tell us what dates the CSR's have been given, if any.

Who knows, if you tell them you're wiling to wait, they may offer you a free HR2x swap in the interim.  /steve


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## sadmaker

love TIVOs stability, love HRxx's interface.


----------



## Ken_F

I mentioned this in the Dish Network forum, but it may be worth mentioning here, since we've made references to it before:



Ken_F said:


> FCC photos (link) confirm that the Dish Network ViP922 is based on the Broadcom BCM7400 SoC.
> 
> The BCM7400 is the first of Broadcom's next-generation DVR CPUs. It's rated at 1000 DMIPs, compared to 450 DMIPS for the BCM7038 and BCM7401 SoCs used in the ViP622/ViP722 and ViP612 (and DirecTV HR21/22).


I still expect the next-generation DirecTV Plus DVR platform to use the BCM7405 if it ships this fall.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> Be great if you could fill us in when you do call. Their response to when you can expect to get another DirecTiVo would tell us what dates the CSR's have been given, if any.
> 
> Who knows, if you tell them you're wiling to wait, they may offer you a free HR2x swap in the interim.  /steve


I will update when I call, but this part may be interesting to some. I caught a couple D* installers today at Arby's (driving D* vans). I asked them about what I had planned to do for my mounting the Slimline. If you read the installation forum, you'll understand that part. I told them I wanted to know if it would work because "I just want to make it as easy as possible for you or whoever because I know you don't get paid jack for upgrades." They asked if I used to be an installer and said "yeah, we cringe when we see upgrades." LOL! I also asked them what receivers they bring. They stated the HR21 is all they have in their warehouse in Atlanta. The van was chalk full of them. I think they are silver and I don't want a silver box.

I said I don't want to give up my D-TiVo because of DLB, which naturally got us on the subject of TiVo. They volunteered that a new TiVo based receiver is coming out. I asked if they knew when the TiVo box was coming out because my tuner is dying and I need a new one. Of course I take this with a grain of salt, but their words were "this summer." I said in a shocked voice "this summer?" (because it contradicts everything here). And they said "this summer" again. To which I replied "thanks guys, I hope you're right."


----------



## Steve

Ken_F said:


> I mentioned this in the Dish Network forum, but it may be worth mentioning here, since we've made references to it before:
> 
> I still expect the next-generation DirecTV Plus DVR platform to use the BCM7405 if it ships this fall.


The 7405 offers built-in DiVX support. Wouldn't it be nice if we could actually use trickplay when viewing networked video files? There'd be no need to transcode either. /steve


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## joed32

HR21s are black.


----------



## NickIndy

Tallgntlmn said:


> Of course I take this with a grain of salt, but their words were "this summer."


I hope they're right. I know everybody else here is skeptical, but TiVo clearly has an incentive to get this box out sooner rather than later. They aren't going to publicly announce such an ambitious date in order to lessen the newsworthiness of any potential delays. When it's ready I think it'll be sprung on us quickly. Just my 2¢.


----------



## NickIndy

Tallgntlmn said:


> Had not thought of that. I did look at HR21's on there but not this one. If it works with the 18" dish, and I imagine it does, then I will look into it. Then I could hold out for sure.


I've got one sitting unused in the basement. Original box even.....


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## bonscott87

Tallgntlmn said:


> I said I don't want to give up my D-TiVo because of DLB, which naturally got us on the subject of TiVo. They volunteered that a new TiVo based receiver is coming out. I asked if they knew when the TiVo box was coming out because my tuner is dying and I need a new one. Of course I take this with a grain of salt, but their words were "this summer." I said in a shocked voice "this summer?" (because it contradicts everything here). And they said "this summer" again. To which I replied "thanks guys, I hope you're right."


They are as clueless about these things as CSRs are. Plus it totally goes against what the CEO of Tivo just said a couple weeks ago which was that they hoped to stem the losses of DirecTV subs by the end of the year (i.e. a new box). So they *hope* to have something out by the end of the year. Certainly no where near summer. Heck, it's not even in beta yet.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

joed32 said:


> HR21s are black.


That's a good thing since I have such disdain for silver components. Well, I would mind so much if it were Krell, Rotel, or Classe equipment. LOL!


bonscott87 said:


> They are as clueless about these things as CSRs are. Plus it totally goes against what the CEO of Tivo just said a couple weeks ago which was that they hoped to stem the losses of DirecTV subs by the end of the year (i.e. a new box). So they *hope* to have something out by the end of the year. Certainly no where near summer. Heck, it's not even in beta yet.


Which is why I took what they said with a grain of salt. My main objective talking to them was to find out if they thought my rigged up design would work with a Slimline.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> [...] Heck, it's not even in beta yet.


Unless my source was mistaken, I was told the HR10 had no public beta.

If so, since the new D*/TiVo agreement is now 6 months old and the HR21 and TiVOHD boxes are so similar, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn there was a private beta going on as we speak. Mr. Rogers may have simply been "under-promising" in his recent remarks. Always a good idea, IMO, especially when it comes to the SEC! 

Just my .02. I know I'm in the minority with this opinion. :lol: /steve


----------



## t_h

Indeed. There could be 500 alpha/beta test boxes running already, for all we know.

Tivo has quite a few employees, many of which are or at least were directv subs. They could be testing it. There is also a significant group of public and private tivo beta testers that have had arrangements with tivo for a very long time.

I guess we wont know until much later in the process, but given the amount of speculation that certain information vacuums cause, its as plausible as any other wild guess.


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Unless my source was mistaken, I was told the HR10 had no public beta.
> 
> If so, since the new D*/TiVo agreement is now 6 months old and the HR21 and TiVOHD boxes are so similar, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn there was a private beta going on as we speak. Mr. Rogers may have simply been "under-promising" in his recent remarks. Always a good idea, IMO, especially when it comes to the SEC!
> 
> Just my .02. I know I'm in the minority with this opinion. :lol: /steve


Of course Tivo put up a pretty public "sign up for the beta" page just hours after the original announcement. Methinks there will be one.  If there was a beta going on right now there would certainly be rumors of it all over the place.


----------



## Sixto

bonscott87 said:


> If there was a beta going on right now there would certainly be rumors of it all over the place.


agree. no way there's any significant testing going on right now. the usual insiders can't get any info.


----------



## bidger

sadmaker said:


> love TIVOs stability, love HRxx's interface.


Interesting.

I've been one of those who always thought TiVo was a stable platform and have kept my HR10 for over-the-air HD shows. That stability pretty much went out the door about a month ago when, thanks to the delay of the digital transition, the HR10 no longer seems to know which frequency my digital stations are on. For example, it's looking for the local NBS affiliate @ 18-1 freq. 18 since apparently the data provided by Tribune Media has jumped the gun and believes this channel has eliminated it's analog feed, it hasn't, and is using that freq. for digital. A scan shows the correct freq., 2, and provides a duplicate 18-1, but with no Guide data. When I've tried to schedule a manual recording on that channel, it reverts to the incorrect channel @ freq. 18 and nothing records.

Because I'd dedicated the HR10 to OTA recording, I'd removed the feed from the HR20, but it occurred to me today to give it a spin, connected it, and did the setup. The HR20 displays 18-1 feq. 2 with the Guide data! I setup SNL to record and _The Office_. So, while I wait for TiVo to sort out their issues with a 3rd party, I'm using the HR20 to do something I was counting on the TiVo to do. Said reliability takes a hit.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> Of course Tivo put up a pretty public "sign up for the beta" page just hours after the original announcement. Methinks there will be one.  If there was a beta going on right now there would certainly be rumors of it all over the place.


Different landscape now, since unlike back then (December '03), there are HR2x's available. Wouldn't surprise me if DirecTV made a "gag order" part of the new agreement, to keep folks upgrading to HD at the same pace as prior to the announcement. Just my .02. /steve


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## t_h

I've participated in invite-only betas of tivo products. There was a protected forum for discussing the products and problems identified on a private web site run by tivo. There was a gag order, if you talked about it you'd never participate in another beta. You only got in if another current regular early tester recommended you.

Some of the stuff I tested I worked with for months before there was a public beta. Nobody knew a dang thing about it outside of that beta group.

If such a beta was being run in this manner by tivo (rather than directv) I would anticipate the source selection and insiders would be from a user base that was favorable to tivo.

They'll be looking to retain and gain tivo subs, not convert HR subs. At $200-something or more a box, a higher monthly fee and another two year commitment, I cant see too many HR users converting unless they're tivo die hards. So I dont think they'd be looking for friendly testers here.

Speaking from my own perspective, I'd rather buy HD tivo's with cable cards. Still a lot of money out of pocket, but I own them and can sell them in a couple of years to buy the newer models, if I choose. I can also open the dang thing up and stick a disk drive in it or replace a fan. Or buy a big antenna and cut the wire altogether.

There is no way in the world I'm signing up for another 2 year commit with ANY service provider.


----------



## t_h

bidger said:


> So, while I wait for TiVo to sort out their issues with a 3rd party, I'm using the HR20 to do something I was counting on the TiVo to do. Said reliability takes a hit.


Odd. Tivo and directv both use tribune for channel arrangements and guide data.

Try rerunning guided setup on the HR10 and checking the channel lineup you get during GS. May be that you missed the new channel arrangement or channel changes as they went along.


----------



## bidger

t_h said:


> Try rerunning guided setup on the HR10 and checking the channel lineup you get during GS. May be that you missed the new channel arrangement or channel changes as they went along.


With the HR10 one only needs to Clear Previously Scanned Off-Air Channels, then do a rescan. I watched it the last time and when the TiVo finds digital channels on a frequency, a little circled check mark appears below for a brief second. I saw the check @ freq. 2, where the NBC affiliate is, nothing @ 18, and a check @ 30, where the local PBS is. But, the TiVo insists that NBC is @ freq. 18. Tuning to that channel just gets a Searching for signal message.

I've always felt that the actual scan for digital off-air stations was a strength, but it seems the HR10 isn't willing to believe what it actually sees and gives preference to the erroneous Guide data it receives.


----------



## t_h

Hmmm...never had an hr10 but I thought they had a guided setup routine. That should download the latest OTA channel lineup for your area, which may be different than the one it has now, which would be why the guide data doesnt match up for the channels.

You can go to www.zap2it.com, put in your zip code and pick 'local broadcast (antenna)' and that will show you the channel mappings and guide data that tribune is distributing.

If thats wrong, report it to tribune here
http://www.zap2it.com/services/site/zap-feedback,0,6935396.story

If its correct there, then directv is bungling up the data.


----------



## Sixto

was toying around with the series3 tonight (rarely touch it).

the new HD tivo search (beta) and youtube is actually pretty cool. you can find nearly any youtube video in seconds and plays nicely. also the HD search is fairly slick. 

when they talk about supporting "the popular broadband features", would think these features would be included.

don't have a netflix account to play with but feature was there. along with amazon.

but was kind of annoying to not have picture-in-guide during all of the experimenting. not sure I could ever go back to no picture-in-guide.

and just LOVE using that tactile feel tivo glo remote. so smooth.

latest v11b software is also very responsive. would fly on a BCM7405.


----------



## newsposter

bidger said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I've been one of those who always thought TiVo was a stable platform and have kept my HR10 for over-the-air HD shows. That stability pretty much went out the door about a month ago when,


i just lost 10-1 philly..it thinks its 35 from NJ...funny..but not..
thankfully manual recordings of a 'second' 10-1 in the guide work but there's no data there !


----------



## Brennok

Sixto said:


> was toying around with the series3 tonight (rarely touch it).


I have been researching the Tivo HD for a friend and also my parents who are thinking of switching to Fios. I must say it is severely tempting to make the switch especially with no news from Tivo or Directv on the new unit. I think if I didn't currently have E/W feeds on SD it would be a no brainer for me.


----------



## Jhon69

Brennok said:


> I have been researching the Tivo HD for a friend and also my parents who are thinking of switching to Fios. I must say it is severely tempting to make the switch especially with no news from Tivo or Directv on the new unit. I think if I didn't currently have E/W feeds on SD it would be a no brainer for me.


Did you miss the latest report?.

http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-09-42533


----------



## djrobx

> Speaking from my own perspective, I'd rather buy HD tivo's with cable card


TiVo series 3 is great, but those monster service fees are a killer. Then you gotta rent two CableCARDS. For us in Time Warner Los Angeles that's $2.75 for the first card and $4.75 for each additional card.

So this means you gotta buy the box, spend ~$12/month on TiVo fees, then another $7.50 in fees to Time Warner. And after all that's done you don't have access to VOD/PPV. Oh and ordering digital cable without the cable box seems to screw up your eligibility for "bundle" packages.

I'm honestly not a big fan of "owning" pricey boxes either. They're rarely worth what you paid for them when you're done with them. The only reason the SA TiVo's I've purchased in the past have any value is because of the lifetime service plans. Oh how I miss the good old days of $199 for lifetime. This is of course if they didn't die before I could sell them. With TiVo's warranty if it craps out after 90 days you're on the hook for labor charges and even more after that.

Again, they're VERY nice. I even bought one for my mom as a gift. But for us it's definitely been a costly sucker. For these premium fees we're paying there are way too many ads all over the UI. DirecTV's DVRs are a deal, comparatively. Back in the day of SD SA TiVos and DirecTV TiVos, it was the same sort of deal. The integrated DirecTV TiVo was the clear way to go especially if you wanted more than one box.

Its good to see TiVo is finally making some money. Maybe they can afford to dial back some of these service rates. Maybe a cheaper broadband-only service that doesn't require TiVo to buy dialin access.


----------



## Brennok

Jhon69 said:


> Did you miss the latest report?.
> 
> http://investor.tivo.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-09-42533


Well I meant to say no new news since that still doesn't give us any real info other than they are working on it.


----------



## Steve

Brennok said:


> Well I meant to say no new news since that still doesn't give us any real info other than they are working on it.


And that's probably all we're gonna hear, until they're ready to start taking pre-orders. As *t_h* posted here:



t_h said:


> I've participated in invite-only betas of tivo products. There was a protected forum for discussing the products and problems identified on a private web site run by tivo. There was a gag order, if you talked about it you'd never participate in another beta. [...]


/steve


----------



## t_h

djrobx said:


> TiVo series 3 is great, but those monster service fees are a killer. Then you gotta rent two CableCARDS. For us in Time Warner Los Angeles that's $2.75 for the first card and $4.75 for each additional card.


M-cards are available in most areas of the country. First m-card in most areas is free, second one is ~2.50-4.00 depending on the local rate structure.



> So this means you gotta buy the box, spend ~$12/month on TiVo fees, then another $7.50 in fees to Time Warner.


If you're a live subscriber with any history with tivo, lifetime is $299 rather than $399. I have had a bunch of old series 1's with lifetime on them and they gave me the discounted rate on the tivo HD. On that unit that I got my dad, the m-card was free and the lifetime was $299. So, $500 up front ($199 for the tivo) and thats it.



> Oh and ordering digital cable without the cable box seems to screw up your eligibility for "bundle" packages.


Not here, so must be region dependent. Any cable package, even analog, gives you a package discount. Where I live, cable internet is $58. Getting basic analog cable for $8 gives me the HSI for $42. Better pricing packages do require a digital subscription, but there is no stipulation to having to have a box.



> I'm honestly not a big fan of "owning" pricey boxes either. They're rarely worth what you paid for them when you're done with them.


I used the heck out of my series 1's and got almost everything I paid for them and the lifetime back on ebay after 4+ years of heavy use.

Way better than paying a bunch of money for a leased box and then getting nothing for them at the end. And you can open it up, stick your own disk drive in there, put a faster, quieter fan, spray paint it safety orange. Whatever you want. Its your box.



> This is of course if they didn't die before I could sell them. With TiVo's warranty if it craps out after 90 days you're on the hook for labor charges and even more after that.


I had six series 1's. Two had disk problems in their first month and were replaced at n/c. Four were still running with no problems four years later when I sold them. Two are still in use, almost 8 years later. I've replaced fans @ ~$5 each, put larger and larger hard drives in them, and replaced one power supply for about $15. Easier to fix than most PC's.

Honestly, after hearing all the horror stories, I feared the cable/cablecard thing and thought the cable HD offerings would be lame. But my dad knows his tivo and I couldnt get him off of it to another DVR, so we took a spin with the tivo HD. Install went fine, took a few minutes to get the cable card working, and the HD channel picture quality is nice. Looking at the channel lineup, the only ones we watch that they didnt have in HD were all the kids animation channels like sprout and noggin. BFD...

This is the problem directv will face with some of the user base thats still on the old directivo platforms or went to the HR and dont like it. If they charge another big up front fee and a big monthly fee for leased boxes, along with another 2 year commit, I'd just as soon buy my own tivo's, go to cable, probably pay a little more up front and a little more per month, and be done with it. The tivo platform on cable is pretty stable. I'm guessing the directv tivo platform will need 3-9 months to get the bugs worked out of it once it launches.

Thats too long.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> Just out of curiosity, I wonder what the DirecTV CSR's are scripted to say about the timing of the new DirecTiVo, if you told them that unless they send another TiVo you're gonna switch providers? Have you called them?


Just talked to them. This is an approximate quote: "We don't have a timeline for the TiVo yet, but I wouldn't expect it until early next year some time."

Again, that is paraphrased. She did make it very clear that it is not expected until next year.


----------



## Tom_S

Tallgntlmn said:


> Just talked to them. This is an approximate quote: "We don't have a timeline for the TiVo yet, but I wouldn't expect it until early next year some time."
> 
> Again, that is paraphrased. She did make it very clear that it is not expected until next year.


Judging from TiVo's past history of delays, I would not expect it in 2009. They must have the slowest coders in the world.


----------



## t_h

True, speed isnt their virtue. On the other hand the box tends to actually record 99.9% of your shows correctly 99.9% of the time, and they've rarely had to reboot all the tivo's in the middle of the day to apply code fixes to screwed up firmware updates.

In fact, I dont think they've ever had to do that.

So maybe slow and easy wins the race in the long run.


----------



## keenan

t_h said:


> True, speed isnt their virtue. On the other hand the box tends to actually record 99.9% of your shows correctly 99.9% of the time, and they've rarely had to reboot all the tivo's in the middle of the day to apply code fixes to screwed up firmware updates.
> 
> In fact, I dont think they've ever had to do that.
> 
> So maybe slow and easy wins the race in the long run.


I'd venture to say that when it comes to software/firmware that is the best way to go. We as users nowadays have become very complacent with accepting sub-standard quality in so many things and software/firmware is one of the biggest abusers of that complacency.

In my experience TiVo usually has about 2 major updates per year(HD capable boxes), but the box is near bullet-proof when those updates are applied. TiVo also has extensive beta-testing programs on many different aspects of the service all year long. Individual beta programs run from a few months to several and then are slowly merged into a release candidate which is also tested and then limited released, then every sub finally gets updated.

DirecTV on the other hand seems to take a more brute force approach, pushing out software/firmware "before it's time" while continuing to work out the bugs while subs are dealing with them as well.

Different approaches, but I like the TiVo style better, even if features do take longer to be rolled out.


----------



## Brennok

keenan said:


> Different approaches, but I like the TiVo style better, even if features do take longer to be rolled out.


I like Tivo's style better but that is only after I have it lol. Up till then I could definitely go with Directv's style of just get it out there.

I hate waiting especially when nothing comes out to tide you over. It is like seeing a trailer for the big summer blockbuster 2 years from now.


----------



## Jhon69

t_h said:


> True, speed isnt their virtue. On the other hand the box tends to actually record 99.9% of your shows correctly 99.9% of the time, and they've rarely had to reboot all the tivo's in the middle of the day to apply code fixes to screwed up firmware updates.
> 
> In fact, I dont think they've ever had to do that.
> 
> So maybe slow and easy wins the race in the long run.


My HR10-250 did a RBR by itself and this was not the same time the HR2xs and R22s did.

Since I activated 6.4a I did a clear and delete and all my channel logos that my HR10-250 had are now gone.But with 6.3f I could do a clear and delete with no problems.Also having other issues with my HR10-250 but recording the right program hasn't been one of my issues.

Reset receiver today got some channel logos back in guide.


----------



## Booster!

I called DirecTv today to inquire about getting another HD DVR (HR21 or whatever the current flavor is..) - the rep told me if I wait until "next month", the new Tivo DVR would be available.. ?? 

Nevertheless, I told him I would wait...


----------



## loudo

Booster! said:


> I called DirecTv today to inquire about getting another HD DVR (HR21 or whatever the current flavor is..) - the rep told me if I wait until "next month", the new Tivo DVR would be available.. ??
> 
> Nevertheless, I told him I would wait...


You should have asked what was the model of the new unit. I haven't heard of any new units being released. Just the one of this discussion, scheduled for later this year?? 
:welcome_s


----------



## johnp37

Booster! said:


> I called DirecTv today to inquire about getting another HD DVR (HR21 or whatever the current flavor is..) - the rep told me if I wait until "next month", the new Tivo DVR would be available.. ??
> 
> Nevertheless, I told him I would wait...


 Don't hold your breath. Another classic example of a misinformed CSR. UNLESS he was referring to the HR23. AS far as THE TIVO dvr is concerned, I hold out no hope until Q1 2010 realistically. :nono2:


----------



## Steve

I'm still betting September/October '09 timeframe. That will be exactly a year from the announcement. I honestly believe it's at least in alpha test as we speak, so even a summer '09 release wouldn't surprise me.

I know... I"m nuts! :lol: /steve


----------



## Booster!

I asked about the model - he couldn't tell me anything about it, but that it was the new "Tivo" model. It seemed like he was kinda was urging me to wait as if it was something cool. Who knows. I've never actually had a DTV rep tell me anything I hadn't seen on here for months. (This was a level 2/cust. relations/retentions person tho..)

...you'd think if it was that close to market, we'd have pictures on the net, press stuff, marketing, etc....


----------



## bonscott87

Booster! said:


> I asked about the model - he couldn't tell me anything about it, but that it was the new "Tivo" model. It seemed like he was kinda was urging me to wait as if it was something cool. Who knows. I've never actually had a DTV rep tell me anything I hadn't seen on here for months. (This was a level 2/cust. relations/retentions person tho..)
> 
> ...you'd think if it was that close to market, we'd have pictures on the net, press stuff, marketing, etc....


Yea, well, he's wrong. The Tivo CEO himself has stated end of year, they hope. So unless he misspoke...


----------



## Tom Robertson

bonscott87 said:


> Yea, well, he's wrong. The Tivo CEO himself has stated end of year, they hope. So unless he misspoke...


Talk about under-promise and over-deliver


----------



## Steve

Tom Robertson said:


> Talk about under-promise and over-deliver


Thanks to Sarbanes-Oxley and the SEC, that's a good practice for CEO's of publicly traded companies these days.  /steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

The summer date would go along with what a couple random installers told me. But the CSR I spoke with on Friday said no timeline and probably not until next year. The one I placed my order with yesterday intimated the same thought. I asked in context of "can i upgrade to the TiVo based unit that is coming out even though I am upgrading now? I know I'll want my dual live buffers back."

Yeah, I finally broke down and ordered a HR2x. My broken tuner probably screwed up another recording tonight because I forgot to focus the second tuner. GRRRR. Almost makes me wish my install was Tuesday instead of next Tuesday.


----------



## Que

Jhon69 said:


> https://fieldtrials.tivo.com/signup/default.html


If this thing is going to be out later this year. We should be hearing about it right? People getting in the beta....any info?


----------



## loudo

Que said:


> If this thing is going to be out later this year. We should be hearing about it right? People getting in the beta....any info?


The question is: Will the beta testing be done by DirecTV or TIVO? As the original press release stated, "DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform."


----------



## Steve

loudo said:


> The question is: Will the beta testing be done by DirecTV or TIVO? As he original press release stated, "DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform."


I recently spent some time combing through the TiVo Community Forum archives to see what folks were talking about prior to the release of the HR10-250, and there wasn't so much as a "peep" about beta testing after the 2003 announcement and prior to the 2004 HR10-250 "pre-order" threads! TiVo and/or DirecTV really kept a tight lid on whatever beta testing was being conducted. /steve


----------



## Richierich

The Beta Testing will be done by TIVO and I signed up but I haven't heard Jack and I was hoping that I would be selected because with my experience I would make an excellent tester.

Oh well I missed the boat again it seems.


----------



## sunking

richierich said:


> The Beta Testing will be done by TIVO and I signed up but I haven't heard Jack and I was hoping that I would be selected because with my experience I would make an excellent tester.
> 
> Oh well I missed the boat again it seems.


Same here, I watch TV up to 20 hours a day and enjoy, news, sports, music and even the infomercials! Oh, and I'm ambedextrous with the remote.

Am I over qualified maybe? :grin:


----------



## nyelton

sunking said:


> up to 20 hours a day


"Up to"? There's your problem, you said up to 20 hours, so tivo figured that meant you watched about 90 minutes per day.


----------



## Jhon69

Que said:


> If this thing is going to be out later this year. We should be hearing about it right? People getting in the beta....any info?


Your kidding right?.Even if they are they are under a NDA(Non Disclosure Agreement).


----------



## bonscott87

Jhon69 said:


> Your kidding right?.Even if they are they are under a NDA(Non Disclosure Agreement).


I think it's a different world then in 2004 during HR10-250 beta testing. There is so much Internet chatter between tons of blogs, facebook, twitter and so forth it will leak out. I can't see how it can't leak out that at least testing is going on, even if no details.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> I think it's a different world then in 2004 during HR10-250 beta testing. There is so much Internet chatter between tons of blogs, facebook, twitter and so forth it will leak out. I can't see how it can't leak out that at least testing is going on, even if no details.


The Tivo archive ending 6/30/04 that I was searching had *172,959* threads and *1,869,115* posts, so I'd respectfully disagree.

Same for the TiVOHD and TiVOHDXL over 2 years later. Apparently well-kept secrets. /steve


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> The Tivo archive ending 6/30/04 that I was searching had *172,959* threads and *1,869,115* posts, so I'd respectfully disagree.


Well, the Tivo board is pretty well moderated in that sort of thing. I remember the old DirecTivo beta's and as soon as a stray post about the beta got into the main forum it was immediately nixed. However, everyone knew there was a beta going on.



> Same for the TiVOHD and TiVOHDXL over 2 years later. Apparently well-kept secrets. /steve


Hmmmm. I remember seeing blog posts about those products long before they were released. It was at least known they existed. With Twitter now all it takes is one quick tweet and it's all over the place. Nobody in today's world can keep anything that locked down forever. But DirecTV has been pretty good keeping a lid on hardware beta's in the CE program from getting out so maybe it can be done.

Plus the fact Tivo needs to keep their stock up and any positive progress on the beta would go a long way in doing that.

Anyway, I'm just saying...I could be wrong.


----------



## Tom_S

keenan said:


> DirecTV on the other hand seems to take a more brute force approach, pushing out software/firmware "before it's time" while continuing to work out the bugs while subs are dealing with them as well.


With the latest HD boxes it is true they forced them out before they were fully baked. Previously all DirecTV boxes were rock-solid and DishNetwork was the one everybody cried about.

In fairness the programmers were under significant time pressure. In fact it must have been hell in the programming department. They had multi-billion dollar satellite and infrastructure setup and absolutely positively HAD to have these boxes on the market. Did they work 100%, absolutely not, but at the time 95-98% was enough.

Now, here comes TiVo and they have the luxury of time on their hands, relatively speaking, and if their box comes out working great it's gonna be "look how good their programmers are". Some may say, well DirecTV had 2 plus years to get it right, true, however it is MUCH harder to fix something already out in the wild then fix the problems in the lab.

I'm just sayin...


----------



## sunking

Tom_S said:


> With the latest HD boxes it is true they forced them out before they were fully baked. Previously all DirecTV boxes were rock-solid and DishNetwork was the one everybody cried about.
> 
> In fairness the programmers were under significant time pressure. In fact it must have been hell in the programming department. They had multi-billion dollar satellite and infrastructure setup and absolutely positively HAD to have these boxes on the market. Did they work 100%, absolutely not, but at the time 95-98% was enough.
> 
> Now, here comes TiVo and they have the luxury of time on their hands, relatively speaking, and if their box comes out working great it's gonna be "look how good their programmers are". Some may say, well DirecTV had 2 plus years to get it right, true, however it is MUCH harder to fix something already out in the wild then fix the problems in the lab.
> 
> I'm just sayin...


I half, well more than half really, agree with you. I've always said the HRs were rushed into production to meet satellite deadlines, thus lots of corner were cut making it a bear to work with now for them (ie: I still believe this was the nail in DLBs coffin. Simply didnt have time to design it correctly). Strangely I often get lambasted for this position by the fanboys who never doubt a single Directv position.

I do hold faith in the tivo being a much better product at release than directv had to offer, but not so much because they don't have a firm deadline. It'll be a better product because it is their business and they simply do it better than Directv. They have many years experience and certainly aren't reinventing the wheel. I'm actually a little surprised Directv even agreed to this as I think the product will far exceed anything Directv has to offer. Unfortunately I think that there will be some sort of extra per month for the tivo that exceeds the $10 dvr fee. Just the fact that you'll be able to do netflix/blockbuster from it is a big blow to the HR series, and PPV as a whole (assuming you have a decent net connection).


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> The Tivo archive ending 6/30/04 that I was searching had *172,959* threads and *1,869,115* posts, so I'd respectfully disagree.
> 
> Same for the TiVOHD and TiVOHDXL over 2 years later. Apparently well-kept secrets. /steve


The only beta testing I remember is being able to get the firmware early .. Just do a look up of TiVolutionary and beta in the pre-2001 time frame and you'll probably get a few hits.

I actually don't remember anyone every talking about a hardware beta so either it was a well kept secret or maybe it was limited to in-house participants at the time.


----------



## keenan

In my experience, TiVo keeps a pretty tight leash on their beta testing, I've participated in several and rarely ever saw any mention of the testing in online forums, only when the release candidate is trickled out does the features of that testing appear in public forums.

Hardware would be a little different, and there might be some "noise" online about it, but even there, there's still NDA's to keep a lid on things.


----------



## DarinC

Jhon69 said:


> My HR10-250 did a RBR by itself


Interesting. My HR10-250 doesn't even have a RB. :grin:


----------



## Jhon69

DarinC said:


> Interesting. My HR10-250 doesn't even have a RB. :grin:


Mine either I meant rebooted by itself,my bad.


----------



## mp11

t_h said:


> Speaking from my own perspective, I'd rather buy HD tivo's with cable cards. Still a lot of money out of pocket, but I own them and can sell them in a couple of years to buy the newer models, if I choose. I can also open the dang thing up and stick a disk drive in it or replace a fan. Or buy a big antenna and cut the wire altogether.
> 
> There is no way in the world I'm signing up for another 2 year commit with ANY service provider
> 
> 
> 
> Thats exactly what I'm thinking. I would be hard pressed to enter another 2 year contract, especially since this (with my current HR20/21), has been the longest 2 years of my life!
Click to expand...


----------



## andunn27

I also would buy one outright to avoid another 2 year agreement if they are going to sell an actual box.


----------



## TBlazer07

In my opinion, a new DTV TiVo won't have this feature just for the reason you state. Why would DirecTV allow something that would kill off their (lousy, overpriced, 24hr only use) PPV? In the end, DirecTV controls what features will/won't be available.


sunking said:


> Just the fact that you'll be able to do netflix/blockbuster from it is a big blow to the HR series, and PPV as a whole (assuming you have a decent net connection).


----------



## alwayscool

sunking said:


> Same here, I watch TV up to 20 hours a day and enjoy, news, sports, music and even the infomercials! Oh, and I'm ambedextrous with the remote.
> 
> Am I over qualified maybe? :grin:


u need to shut the TV off and go outside and enjoy life, lol


----------



## bonscott87

andunn27 said:


> I also would buy one outright to avoid another 2 year agreement if they are going to sell an actual box.


Why? When you do the math so long as you stay at least 6 months you'd come out ahead with leasing and canceling paying the ETF.

Having said all that I very much doubt there will be a buy option any more then there is for the current HR2x's. You can buy it if you call DirecTV directly and want to pay $400+ for it. You pay the same monthly fee no matter if it's owned or leased so you save no money there. Or you can go with $99 to free to lease it and pay what's left of the ETF if you need to leave early. You'll save money by leasing.

But hey, whatever makes you feel better.


----------



## nyelton

bonscott87 said:


> Why? When you do the math so long as you stay at least 6 months you'd come out ahead with leasing and canceling paying the ETF.


That's not exactly true. You may have spent the same amount of money either way, but if you cancel at that break-even point, you've got nothing to show for it if you had leased. If you bought instead, you would at least still own the receiver, which presumably still has some resale value.

Frankly I don't see why there should be a contract required for a leased receiver. DTV is not out a whole lot if you cancel your service--perhaps shipping and reconditioning costs, but you did pay them money up front for the box, and in the end they still get the receiver back and can send it right on out the door to another customer.

Now if they had to pay an installer to go out, or you're getting a discount on programming prices up front, I can see why there would be an ETF. But when we're only talking about adding a leased receiver, I think it's just another excuse to lock you in so they don't have to worry about providing good customer service or keeping you satisfied as a customer.


----------



## dreadlk

I find this whole Tivo/Directv thing to be very strange from a business standpoint. Why would Directv want to even get involved with Tivo again? If D* gives customers a choice between HR2X and a Tivo box, you can bet that almost 95% will chose the Tivo, just based on reputation alone, so directv would in fact be handing over there whole DVR back operation to Tivo and all the HR2x receivers would become scrap in 2-3 years.

Dont get me wrong I like Tivo, but I am just wondering whats in this for Directv and why would they go down this road. If they believe that the HR2x will never work properly and will always have these bugs, then that could be a good reason but it really does not sound right considering that they keep coming out with New models every 6 months.


----------



## Doug Brott

dreadlk said:


> I find this whole Tivo/Directv thing to be very strange from a business standpoint. Why would Directv want to even get involved with Tivo again? If D* gives customers a choice between HR2X and a Tivo box, you can bet that almost 95% will chose the Tivo, just based on reputation alone, so directv would in fact be handing over there whole DVR back operation to Tivo and all the HR2x receivers would become scrap in 2-3 years.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I like Tivo, but I am just wondering whats in this for Directv and why would they go down this road. If they believe that the HR2x will never work properly and will always have these bugs, then that could be a good reason but it really does not sound right considering that they keep coming out with New models every 6 months.


TiVo provides no content, just the recorder software. Even in this arrangement, DIRECTV owns the program distribution rights (monthly subscription) and the hardware distribution rights (another monthy subscription). If having TiVo brings more customers to the table, what has DIRECTV lost? While I disagree with your 95% number above, regardless of the percentage, DIRECTV still maintains 100% of the customer base.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dreadlk said:


> If D* gives customers a choice between HR2X and a Tivo box, you can bet that almost 95% will chose the Tivo, just based on reputation alone,


....I suspect no where near that %.

In fact where Tivo is available, it rarely approaches 50%, even when discounts are applied, such as cerain cable providers. The added costs for Tivo, as well as some folks preferences going another direction, assures 95% will never be reached.


----------



## keenan

dreadlk said:


> I find this whole Tivo/Directv thing to be very strange from a business standpoint. Why would Directv want to even get involved with Tivo again? If D* gives customers a choice between HR2X and a Tivo box, you can bet that almost 95% will chose the Tivo, just based on reputation alone, so directv would in fact be handing over there whole DVR back operation to Tivo and all the HR2x receivers would become scrap in 2-3 years.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I like Tivo, but I am just wondering whats in this for Directv and why would they go down this road. If they believe that the HR2x will never work properly and will always have these bugs, then that could be a good reason but it really does not sound right considering that they keep coming out with New models every 6 months.


The TiVo option will almost certainly be more expensive than DirecTV's normal DVR so I really doubt you'll see a 95% uptake on it. DirecTV also knows that there's many current subs(SD) and potentially new subs(both SD and HD) that given the option of using a TiVo would be more inclined to stay and/or move to DirecTV.

DirecTV already has the largest selection of HD channels, has the best sports packages, has image quality generally on par with the best of cable, adding TiVo to the mix makes DirecTV a very compelling product, having the best of, or equal to, any other provider out there.

Regarding the new DirecTV DVR's every 6 mos or so, I don't believe it's quite that frequent, but even so, that sort of says to me that they are not happy with what they have, in other words, the buggy machines are why they keep coming out with newer models.

A TiVo DVR will never replace the D* DVR, but I know many, myself included, that will leap at the first opportunity to dump the D* DVR in favor of a TiVo designed unit.


----------



## Araxen

I have $1000 set aside just waiting for the day this comes out. I can't wait for it to be released and to ship my D* HD DVR back to D*.


----------



## dennisj00

The models of HR2x are 'different' enough to be different (both by number and manufacturer), but offer the same features and functionality so they're really not different models.


----------



## HarryD

Araxen said:


> I have $1000 set aside just waiting for the day this comes out. I can't wait for it to be released and to ship my D* HD DVR back to D*.


A grand?? Jeez... is that the leased price??


----------



## Tom Robertson

HarryD said:


> A grand?? Jeez... is that the leased price??


No one knows yet. I'm hoping his grand could turn into a couple purchased or several leased units. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Steve

HarryD said:


> A grand?? Jeez... is that the leased price??


That's what the HR10-250 early adopters (like me) paid back in the day, when the box was one of a kind. Those costs dropped dramatically over time.

The new DirecTiVo software will be running on the same hardware platform as whatever the simultaneously shipping DirectTV HD DVR software is running on, so the lease/buy prices should be comparable, IMHO, especially since TiVo is doing all the work, and not DirecTV. No add'l costs to re-coup.

Speculation is TiVo users will pay an add'l monthly household "TiVo" fee on top of the standard fees. So perhaps HD DVR fee is $9.95, but HD DVR with TiVo service is $14.95.

/steve


----------



## keenan

HarryD said:


> A grand?? Jeez... is that the leased price??


$1000 was the original HR10-250 price, I seriously doubt a new TiVo/DirecTV DVR will be anywhere near that, new cable/OTA HD TiVo's are around $250-$500.


----------



## keenan

Steve said:


> That's what the HR10-250 early adopters (like me) paid back in the day, when the box was one of a kind. Those costs dropped dramatically over time.
> 
> The new DirecTiVo software will be running on the same hardware platform as whatever the simultaneously shipping DirectTV HD DVR software is running on, so the lease/buy prices should be comparable, IMHO, especially since TiVo is doing all the work, and not DirecTV.
> 
> Speculation is TiVo users will pay an add'l monthly household "TiVo" fee on top of the standard fees.
> 
> /steve


Is this a known fact?


----------



## Tom Robertson

keenan said:


> Is this a known fact?


That is what DIRECTV, TiVo, and the contract all have said. Tho until it arrives at the shipping dock, who knows?


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo provides no content, just the recorder software. Even in this arrangement, DIRECTV owns the program distribution rights (monthly subscription) and the hardware distribution rights (another monthy subscription). If having TiVo brings more customers to the table, what has DIRECTV lost? While I disagree with your 95% number above, regardless of the percentage, DIRECTV still maintains 100% of the customer base.


Exactly. It's a win/win.

DirecTV hangs on to customers upgrading to HD from TiVo SD boxes they otherwise might have lost. They also pick up new customers who "must" have TiVo at all costs and were considering cable for that reason.

If TiVo manages to win over just 5%-10% of the 18 million world-wide DirecTV customer base, at a $5 per month per household "TiVo" fee, that represents between $50+ million and $100+ million in annual revenues for TiVo.

/steve


----------



## Mike Bertelson

keenan said:


> Is this a known fact?


It can certainly be argued that it's fact..

IMHO it is the most likely senerio and here is my opinion as to why. 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2024773#post2024773

Mike


----------



## keenan

Tom Robertson said:


> That is what DIRECTV, TiVo, and the contract all have said. Tho until it arrives at the shipping dock, who knows?





MicroBeta said:


> It can certainly be argued that it's fact..
> 
> IMHO it is the most likely senerio and here is my opinion as to why.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2024773#post2024773
> 
> Mike


Well, that's depressing, it took TiVo and Motorola what seemed like decades to get that marriage to market, and from what I understand, it ain't all that and a bag chips either.


----------



## Richierich

Some people will not want to pay the Extra Front End Cost of obtaining an MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR plus the Extra Added Monthly Fee just to have some of the Bells & Whistles and Functionality of a TIVO!!!

I will buy it or lease it or whatever if it is NOT TIVO LITE!!!


----------



## jasonblair

Besides "DLB," which everyone says is a huge deal, but I've rarely thought twice about, what other reason would there be for me to pony up extra $ for TiVo?


----------



## Richierich

Because you like the TIVO GUI & Functionality and are probably used to it and they do have a few Bells & Whistles that D* doesn't have yet so if you have the monetary resources and have liked TIVO then why not?


----------



## loudo

dreadlk said:


> If D* gives customers a choice between HR2X and a Tivo box, you can bet that almost 95% will chose the Tivo, just based on reputation alone, so directv would in fact be handing over there whole DVR back operation to Tivo and all the HR2x receivers would become scrap in 2-3 years.


The majority of DirecTV customer don't have a clue about who is involved with making their DVRs and could care less if they have a TIVO driven unit or not. All they want to see is that their DVR records and plays back the programs they want.

Most of us here know the difference, but the average customer doesn't know or care. The determining factors will be the initial lease price of the unit, which unit cost less per month for the same programing and how much sales people push toward getting people to lease one unit or the other.


----------



## Jhon69

dreadlk said:


> I find this whole Tivo/Directv thing to be very strange from a business standpoint. Why would Directv want to even get involved with Tivo again? If D* gives customers a choice between HR2X and a Tivo box, you can bet that almost 95% will chose the Tivo, just based on reputation alone, so directv would in fact be handing over there whole DVR back operation to Tivo and all the HR2x receivers would become scrap in 2-3 years.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I like Tivo, but I am just wondering whats in this for Directv and why would they go down this road. If they believe that the HR2x will never work properly and will always have these bugs, then that could be a good reason but it really does not sound right considering that they keep coming out with New models every 6 months.


From a business standpoint I find this decision extremely well thought out and give kudos to DirecTV.First resigning Tivo takes away the "lawsuit issue" and second it gives DirecTV HD subscribers a choice and we all know choice is always a good thing.:sure:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jasonblair said:


> Besides "DLB," which everyone says is a huge deal, but I've rarely thought twice about, what other reason would there be for me to pony up extra $ for TiVo?


I would take a lot more then DLB to get me to pay the up front costs and an extra monthly fee.

Bells and whistles would have to pretty phenomenal for me to pony up a couple a hundred bucks.

AAMOF I'm not sure I can thing of any features that would worth the expense and trouble to switch.

I guess at this point in time, and speaking only for myself, I can't think of a reason to switch....and I say switch because I don't think it's an upgrade....at least not yet. :grin:

I'll keep an open mind... 

Mike


----------



## Sixto

MicroBeta said:


> Bells and whistles would have to pretty phenomenal for me to pony up a couple a hundred bucks.


how about an HD GUI, TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go (for laptops/iPods), DLB, TiVo Desktop (Video/Photo/Music), Tactile TiVo Glo Remote, NetFlix, Amazon, Blockbuster, TiVo Search, KidsZone ... and all running on a Broadcom BCM7405 processor with 3x the performance. With support for MPEG4, SWM, DVR Scheduling and AM21.

Very unlikely to have all the above. Probably very unlikely to even have most of the above. But if they did ...


----------



## harsh

keenan said:


> Well, that's depressing, it took TiVo and Motorola what seemed like decades to get that marriage to market, and from what I understand, it ain't all that and a bag chips either.


By some accounts, it turned out to be a bag of buffalo chips.

It must be noted that the existing software for the Moto DVRs left a whole lot to be desired and the TiVo software may actually be a relative triumph; just as many suspect the TiVo software will be over the existing DIRECTV effort.


----------



## mp11

dreadlk said:


> I find this whole Tivo/Directv thing to be very strange from a business standpoint. Why would Directv want to even get involved with Tivo again?
> 
> 
> 
> Good question. I'll bet it's not to extend a helping hand to Tivo. With Directv (and any company for that matter), it's all about $$$. Plus they know they have a substandard product in the HR series. They are also smart enough to know Tivo sets the standard by which all DVRs are measured. If you notice, people call *any* brand a "Tivo"...even if its not one.
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

Steve said:


> Exactly. It's a win/win.
> 
> DirecTV hangs on to customers upgrading to HD from TiVo SD boxes they otherwise might have lost. They also pick up new customers who "must" have TiVo at all costs and were considering cable for that reason.
> 
> 
> 
> They also may hold on to customers that might otherwise abandon Directv due to poor or even nightmarish experiences with the HR series. I'm one.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jhon69

jasonblair said:


> Besides "DLB," which everyone says is a huge deal, but I've rarely thought twice about, what other reason would there be for me to pony up extra $ for TiVo?


Well I can only speak from using the HR10-250.It gives you a choice of a grid guide or list guide in the list guide you can go backwards aways to see if you missed your program a good feature.It gives you a choice of 3 different banners,a deleted recording recovery folder and everyone's favorite who likes the DirecTivo DLB.There are other features that others like too but so far those are a few of mine.The bad no picture in the guide, no one button record,and no easy access to see the first air date(it takes 3 button presses).


----------



## mp11

Sixto said:


> how about an HD GUI, TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go (for laptops/iPods), DLB, TiVo Desktop (Video/Photo/Music), Tactile TiVo Glo Remote, NetFlix, Amazon, Blockbuster, TiVo Search, KidsZone ... and all running on a Broadcom BCM7405 processor with 3x the performance. With support for MPEG4, SWM, DVR Scheduling and AM21.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait wait! You're making my head spin!  With all that...life would be good.
Click to expand...


----------



## bbanks69

MicroBeta said:


> I would take a lot more then DLB to get me to pay the up front costs and an extra monthly fee.
> 
> Bells and whistles would have to pretty phenomenal for me to pony up a couple a hundred bucks.
> 
> AAMOF I'm not sure I can thing of any features that would worth the expense and trouble to switch.
> 
> I guess at this point in time, and speaking only for myself, I can't think of a reason to switch....and I say switch because I don't think it's an upgrade....at least not yet. :grin:
> 
> I'll keep an open mind...
> 
> Mike


I just have SD dvr's,, so it will be an upgrade for me, and since i do not have an HD Dvr, my biggest cost will be the extra cost for the Tivo service. I want to change to hd, but i am trying to wait for the tivo. either way, i am going to have to pay for which ever hd box i get.


----------



## keenan

harsh said:


> By some accounts, it turned out to be a bag of buffalo chips.
> 
> It must be noted that the existing software for the Moto DVRs left a whole lot to be desired and the TiVo software may actually be a relative triumph; just as many suspect the TiVo software will be over the existing DIRECTV effort.


Yes, the Motorola hardware is crap to begin with, what did that loony from Alaska say, like putting lipstick on a pig? 

I suspect that HR2x-based TiVo unit will leave much to be desired as far as previous and current TiVo users go. Something as innocuous as maintaining consistent menu navigation speed seems to be insurmountable for the HR2X design.


----------



## Jhon69

loudo said:


> The majority of DirecTV customer don't have a clue about who is involved with making their DVRs and could care less if they have a TIVO driven unit or not. All they want to see is that their DVR records and plays back the programs they want.
> 
> Most of us here know the difference, but the average customer doesn't know or care. The determining factors will be the initial lease price of the unit, which unit cost less per month for the same programing and how much sales people push toward getting people to lease one unit or the other.


You would be surprised when I told alot of my friends(non techies,but love football) about DirecTV's new HDDVR+ they all asked about"swapping tuners".

And I had to tell them.....NOooooooooo!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> how about an HD GUI, TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go (for laptops/iPods), DLB, TiVo Desktop (Video/Photo/Music), Tactile TiVo Glo Remote, NetFlix, Amazon, Blockbuster, TiVo Search, KidsZone ... and all running on a Broadcom BCM7405 processor with 3x the performance. With support for MPEG4, SWM, DVR Scheduling and AM21.
> 
> Very unlikely to have all the above. Probably very unlikely to even have most of the above. But if they did ...


Let's assume it all exists execpt the BCM7405.

HD GUI - I believe the HR2x will be getting HD GUI.
TiVo MRV - How would this be any different from DirecTV MRV?
TiVo2Go (for laptops/iPods) - DirecTV2PC; I know it doesn't allow for transfer of the files but I don't need that ability.
TiVo Desktop (Video/Photo/Music) - How is different from DirecTV media share which works great for me.
Tactile TiVo Glo Remote - I use a programmable remote anyway so not an issue.
NetFlix - I have BluRay and BDLive.
Amazon, Blockbuster - I don't have a clue why I would need these on my DVR. I'm sitting here watching TV on my laptop so why? :scratchin
TiVo Search - I only use search once and a while and while I liked my DirecTiVo search, I don't miss it.
KidsZone - Might be good but my daughter is 20 so for me it's not an issue.
BCM7405 - If so then it will likely be in the current DVR+. IMO, based on what I've read, TiVo will code for DirecTV's current platform.

I have MPEG4, SWM, DVR Scheduling, and AM21 now (actually I just got rid of my AM21) and again it will be on the what ever is the current DVR+ platform so there goes the hardware advantage.

Mike


----------



## Jhon69

Sixto said:


> how about an HD GUI, TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go (for laptops/iPods), DLB, TiVo Desktop (Video/Photo/Music), Tactile TiVo Glo Remote, NetFlix, Amazon, Blockbuster, TiVo Search, KidsZone ... and all running on a Broadcom BCM7405 processor with 3x the performance. With support for MPEG4, SWM, DVR Scheduling and AM21.
> 
> Very unlikely to have all the above. Probably very unlikely to even have most of the above. But if they did ...


You have to remember"Suggestions" as there are some who like an intuitive HDDVR that will record on it's own your likes and not record your dislikes.


----------



## Doug Brott

keenan said:


> Yes, the Motorola hardware is crap to begin with, what did that loony from Alaska say, like putting lipstick on a pig?
> 
> I suspect that HR2x-based TiVo unit will leave much to be desired as far as previous and current TiVo users go. Something as innocuous as maintaining consistent menu navigation speed seems to be insurmountable for the HR2X design.


I believe TiVo already has one product based on the same chipset as the HR2x .. I suspect that the HR2x hardware will do just fine in terms of performance once the TiVo software is delivered.


----------



## keenan

Doug Brott said:


> I believe TiVo already has one product based on the same chipset as the HR2x .. I suspect that the HR2x hardware will do just fine in terms of performance once the TiVo software is delivered.


I hope so, although a single chip, albeit an important one, does not a DVR make.


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> how about an HD GUI, TiVo MRV, TiVo2Go (for laptops/iPods), DLB, TiVo Desktop (Video/Photo/Music), Tactile TiVo Glo Remote, NetFlix, Amazon, Blockbuster, TiVo Search, KidsZone ... and all running on a Broadcom BCM7405 processor with 3x the performance. With support for MPEG4, SWM, DVR Scheduling and AM21.
> 
> Very unlikely to have all the above. Probably very unlikely to even have most of the above. But if they did ...


You had me at Tactile TiVo Glo Remote


----------



## Steve

keenan said:


> I hope so, although a single chip, albeit an important one, does not a DVR make.


Well actually it does.  The other chips (network, tuners, a/v output circuitry, disk controller, etc.) are all pretty much interchangeable and auxilliary to the BCM7401 CPU/decoder chip, which is the "heart and brains" of the existing HR21/22/23 and TiVoHD DVR's.

Here's how Broadcom describes it:

*BCM7401 - AVC/MPEG-2/VC-1 HD PVR Digital Video for Cable, Satellite, and IP Set-Top Boxes*
_The BCM7401 is a high-definition satellite, cable, and IP set-top box DVR solution offering integrated AVC (H.264/MPEG-4 Part 10), MPEG-2, and VC-1 video decoding technology. It combines a data transport processor, high-definition AVC/MPEG-2/VC-1 video decoder, advanced-audio decoder, 2D graphics processing, high-quality video scaling and motion adaptive deinterlacing, six video DACs, stereo high-fidelity audio DACs, a MIPS32/MIPS16e™ class CPU, and a peripheral control unit providing a variety of set-top box control functions._

/steve


----------



## Richierich

How do you know that the HR23 uses the BCM7401 Chipset? 

I thought you would have to remove the heatsinks to get to the chipset in order to determine which one it is? 

Does anyone know for sure or are we just guessing that it is the BCM7401 chipset?


----------



## mjbvideo

I long for Tivo. Anytime I use my old HR10-250 in the basement it reminds how good things were. My HR21-100 is a bugfest while the Tivo still works - fast remote response, clean interface, never has issues, etc. Of course the Tivo can't pick up any of the HD channels I like but I didn't have any choice but to upgrade to the HR21. So I will pay the extra bucks to have a reliable DVR. I can't wait for the return of the mighty Tivo to Directv!


----------



## Steve

richierich said:


> How do you know that the HR23 uses the BCM7401 Chipset?
> 
> I thought you would have to remove the heatsinks to get to the chipset in order to determine which one it is?
> 
> Does anyone know for sure or are we just guessing that it is the BCM7401 chipset?


This *TiVoHD* overview claims it does, though I can't vouch for the author's credentials:

*Detailed Specifications* _Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 decoders (Same CPU as the DirecTV HR21/22/23 and Dish ViP612 DVRs)._
I think it's also pretty obvious from the similar HR23 GUIDE speed timing tests that the HR21/22/23 are all using a similar CPU. /steve


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect the new HD TivoBox will be, in essense, and H23-looking device with new guts that include a new processor, larger drive, and perhaps new video chip...not to mention a totally new DirecTV-only User Interface.

Ok....its a guess, but as good as anyone else's...


----------



## LarryFlowers

136,425 posts in a thread about vaporware. I sincerely hope that TIVO enthusiasts get a new unit to satisfy them, but in the economic climate we are in right now... thie thread title should be modified to "2010".


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LarryFlowers said:


> 136,425 posts in a thread about vaporware. I sincerely hope that TIVO enthusiasts get a new unit to satisfy them, but in the economic climate we are in right now... thie thread title should be modified to "2010".


I suspect you are correct on all counts...but ya never know....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2048828#post2048828


----------



## Steve

LarryFlowers said:


> 136,425 posts in a thread about vaporware. I sincerely hope that TIVO enthusiasts get a new unit to satisfy them, but in the economic climate we are in right now... thie thread title should be modified to "2010".


For the $$$ reasons I stated here, I gotta believe Rogers is cracking the whip over there. I still think this box will ship Q4 '09, if not sooner. September wouldn't surprise me. /steve


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Steve said:


> For the $$$ reasons I stated here, I gotta believe Rogers is cracking the whip over there. I still think this box will ship Q4 '09, if not sooner. September wouldn't surprise me. /steve


I like that theory. It makes good business sense for both companies and is the most likely idea I've heard so far. 

Mike


----------



## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect the new HD TivoBox will be, in essense, and H23-looking device with new guts that include a new processor, larger drive, and perhaps new video chip...not to mention a totally new DirecTV-only User Interface.
> 
> Ok....its a guess, but as good as anyone else's...


Based on the TCF threads, the TiVoHD apparently runs fine on the same BCM 7401 as the HR21, so not sure why they need a more powerful CPU to get the product out the door.

I really don't see DirecTV simply introducing another HR with a faster CPU and (a) driving up their manufacturing costs and (b) running the risk of upsetting the rest of the user-base, who may now feel disadvantaged that they have a "slower" unit. From a marketing or cost standpoint, it just doesn't make sense for them to do so, unless it will have special new features, like the VIP 922, or it's the "whole home" DVR solution Chase keeps talking about. /steve


----------



## erosroadie

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect the new HD TivoBox will be, in essense, and H23-looking device with new guts that include a new processor, larger drive, and perhaps new video chip...not to mention a totally new DirecTV-only User Interface.
> 
> Ok....its a guess, but as good as anyone else's...


Ahhh...but will it have the "peanut" remote, PAUSE in the middle of the control button array (unlike the D* DVR's PLAY), a true, separate slow-mo button and, of course (drum roll please...) Dual Live Buffers???:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Steve said:


> Based on the TCF threads, the TiVoHD apparently runs fine on the same BCM 7401 as the HR21, so not sure why they need a more powerful CPU to get the product out the door.
> 
> I really don't see DirecTV simply introducing another HR with a faster CPU and (a) driving up their manufacturing costs and (b) running the risk of upsetting the rest of the user-base, who may now feel disadvantaged they have a "slower" unit. From a marketing or cost standpoint, it just doesn't make sense them to do so, unless it will have special new features, like the VIP 922, or it's the "whole home" DVR solution Chase keeps talking about. /steve


I completely agree with this assessment. It just makes sense to me.

Further, as I explained in this link, I blieve that TiVo is going to code for an existing DVR (HR2x) which are all on the BCM 7401.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2024773#post2024773

My 2¢ FWIW. 

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

erosroadie said:


> Ahhh...but will it have the "peanut" remote, PAUSE in the middle of the control button array (unlike the D* DVR's PLAY), a true, separate slow-mo button and, of course (drum roll please...) Dual Live Buffers???:beatdeadhorse:


It may/probably will have DLB(IMHO), but since I believe it will be on an existing platform(see my previous post) it will use the RCxx series remotes...e.g. RC64.

Mike


----------



## bonscott87

dreadlk said:


> I find this whole Tivo/Directv thing to be very strange from a business standpoint. Why would Directv want to even get involved with Tivo again? If D* gives customers a choice between HR2X and a Tivo box, you can bet that almost 95% will chose the Tivo, just based on reputation alone, so directv would in fact be handing over there whole DVR back operation to Tivo and all the HR2x receivers would become scrap in 2-3 years.


LOL. And you get that number from where? :lol:

Step into reality a little bit where all DVRs are Tivo to people. Just about every single friend of mine that has a DVR (which is about all of them nowadays) from various providers like cable, Dish and DirecTV all call their DVR a "Tivo". 95% of them do not actually have a Tivo (and the couple that do are DirecTV subs with an SD DirecTivo still in service). You try to explain to them that they don't actually have a real Tivo and you just get a blank scare. I gave up trying to explain it.

What you will see is this: "You want me to pay $5 a month more for a Tivo, I thought I already had a Tivo.  "

Believe me, there will certainly be some uptake on the new Tivo unit but it will most certainly be minor compared to main DirecTV DVR offering. History and facts tell us this. I mean, anybody with cable can get a real Tivo. Yet most don't and they are just fine with their crappy cable DVR.

But I guess we'll find out over the next couple years, assuming it actually comes out.


----------



## bidger

bonscott87 said:


> Step into reality a little bit where all DVRs are Tivo to people. Just about every single friend of mine that has a DVR (which is about all of them nowadays) from various providers like cable, Dish and DirecTV all call their DVR a "Tivo". 95% of them do not actually have a Tivo (and the couple that do are DirecTV subs with an SD DirecTivo still in service). You try to explain to them that they don't actually have a real Tivo and you just get a blank scare. I gave up trying to explain it.


Confirm. I worked in electronics retail and when I got to the subject of DVRs, people would tell me, "I already have a TiVo". When I'd quiz them about TiVo features I'd discover they had a DVR from Cable, DISH Network, or DIRECTV. To them it was a "TiVo".

I did come across those who were fervent about TiVo, but it wasn't as many who "thought" they had a TiVo.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

bonscott87 said:


> What you will see is this: "You want me to pay $5 a month more for a Tivo, I thought I already had a Tivo.


That's why they can't come out with a crippled TiVo interface. They will have to differentiate it if they want to charge more. I will do it regardless if it has real DLB.

But for my friends? They may do it if they find out they can move shows onto their iPhones or CrackBerries. A buddy of mine travels a lot and has an iPhone. I'm sure he'd love to load his recorded shows on it so he could watch while on a plane or in a hotel room. I would love to be able to put all my shows on my CrackBerry so I can watch them when I am away from home.

You are correct though, most people think a DVR is a TiVo just like they think a BizHub is a Xerox.


----------



## Tom_S

dreadlk said:


> I find this whole Tivo/Directv thing to be very strange from a business standpoint. Why would Directv want to even get involved with Tivo again? If D* gives customers a choice between HR2X and a Tivo box, you can bet that almost 95% will chose the Tivo, just based on reputation alone, so directv would in fact be handing over there whole DVR back operation to Tivo and all the HR2x receivers would become scrap in 2-3 years.


Not me. I've had TiVo and don't see it as some do. It's a DVR, no better than the competition IMO. I'll stick with the HR series.


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> That's why they can't come out with a crippled TiVo interface. [...]


I'm sure it will be as fully-featured as DirecTV will will allow. Not sure what the cost will be, but even at $5/month per household, every 1% of the world-wide DirecTV customer base TiVo can acquire is worth over $10,000,000 a year... virtually pure profit. /steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> I'm sure it will be as fully-featured as DirecTV will will allow.


And you know what that likely means. Something like we had before.

I was just saying to make it "worth it" to those who are not in this thread, it will have to differentiate itself. Ordinary Moe's who think an ordinary DVR is a TiVo won't care if it has nothing extra. I will get it just for DLB but it would be nice if it had TiVo2Go at the very least.


----------



## kiljoy

I sincerely doubt this. TiVo is very protective of its remotes. When the original DTiVo units came out, TiVo was insistent that they retain a yellow pause button that MUST be located in the center of the shuttle controls, a red and a green thumb button, and that that shuttle controls be under thumb naturally. I had SAT T-60s (God, I loved that remote, still the best I've ever used), and from what I understand it was quite an undertaking to make Sony conform to TiVo's requirements while still being unique.

Here is an article about TiVo's philosophy toward remote design. Given their feelings on it, I'd bet confidently that we will have a TiVo peanut in the box.

Tony


----------



## bonscott87

Tallgntlmn said:


> And you know what that likely means. Something like we had before.
> 
> I was just saying to make it "worth it" to those who are not in this thread, it will have to differentiate itself. Ordinary Moe's who think an ordinary DVR is a TiVo won't care if it has nothing extra. I will get it just for DLB but it would be nice if it had TiVo2Go at the very least.


Agreed. But I *highly* doubt it will have Tivo2Go or the Tivo MRV/Tivo media share thing. Why? It was already stated in the press release that this new Tivo will be built on *the DirecTV media/networked platform*. Thus it will use the DirecTV MRV, the DirecTV media share and whatever version DirecTV has for the "2Go" feature, if any.

Now certainly specs may change before release but I think people are really setting themselves up for disappointment if they are planning on this box to have a lot of Tivo unique features in terms of connectivity.
Suggestions, DLB and Tivo Wishlists? Probably.
Tivo MRV, 2Go and media share? Probably not.


----------



## Jhon69

kiljoy said:


> I sincerely doubt this. TiVo is very protective of its remotes. When the original DTiVo units came out, TiVo was insistent that they retain a yellow pause button that MUST be located in the center of the shuttle controls, a red and a green thumb button, and that that shuttle controls be under thumb naturally. I had SAT T-60s (God, I loved that remote, still the best I've ever used), and from what I understand it was quite an undertaking to make Sony conform to TiVo's requirements while still being unique.
> 
> Here is an article about TiVo's philosophy toward remote design. Given their feelings on it, I'd bet confidently that we will have a TiVo peanut in the box.
> 
> Tony


And I will still use DirecTV's RC64RB which for me is the better remote control(I have both).Just think whoever designed Tivo's remote had very small fingers.


----------



## trainman

MicroBeta said:


> TiVo MRV - How would this be any different from DirecTV MRV?


It's been around for years on the standalone TiVos, so I "trust" it a little more than the DirecTV version (which, admittedly, I have no experience with).



> TiVo2Go (for laptops/iPods) - DirecTV2PC; I know it doesn't allow for transfer of the files but I don't need that ability.


Fine, but what I personally need would be DirecTV2Mac. There is a Mac solution for TiVo2Go already.



> TiVo Desktop (Video/Photo/Music) - How is different from DirecTV media share which works great for me.


All I can say is that it doesn't work particularly well for me -- nowhere near as well as TiVo Desktop worked for me when I had a standalone TiVo years ago. (Of course, this might be another Mac issue, since that's not officially supported by DirecTV.)



> TiVo Search - I only use search once and a while and while I liked my DirecTiVo search, I don't miss it.


And this is a good example of why it's a good thing that DirecTV is going to be allowing their subscribers the _choice_ of TiVo. The search is the _number one_ thing I miss about the TiVo interface. I would pay extra _solely for TiVo search_ -- that's because, aside from the HD programming, since I've switched to the HR series DVR, I've felt that I'm not getting the full value from my DirecTV subscription because it's not as easy for me to discover shows I might like.


----------



## cmtar

is there thing that has been released about this, specs, what it looks like, gui, what it will do etc or is this just 111pgs of talking about it lol


----------



## Mike Bertelson

trainman said:


> It's been around for years on the standalone TiVos, so I "trust" it a little more than the DirecTV version (which, admittedly, I have no experience with).


Granted the DirecTV version has yet to be proven or even seen by the general public so you have a point. :grin: 


> Fine, but what I personally need would be DirecTV2Mac. There is a Mac solution for TiVo2Go already.


I don't think it will have a Mac version anytime soon....then again I could be wrong. :shrug:


> All I can say is that it doesn't work particularly well for me -- nowhere near as well as TiVo Desktop worked for me when I had a standalone TiVo years ago. (Of course, this might be another Mac issue, since that's not officially supported by DirecTV.)


Might be related to Mac I guess so again you have a point. :grin: 


> And this is a good example of why it's a good thing that DirecTV is going to be allowing their subscribers the _choice_ of TiVo. The search is the _number one_ thing I miss about the TiVo interface. I would pay extra _solely for TiVo search_ -- that's because, aside from the HD programming, since I've switched to the HR series DVR, I've felt that I'm not getting the full value from my DirecTV subscription because it's not as easy for me to discover shows I might like.


I've always wondered this, what does the TiVo search have that DirecTV's doesn't?

In the end, since I believe it will be based on an existing DirecTV platform, TiVo will have to conform, at least in some part, to how the DVR+ line operates.

Previously, the DirecTiVo wasn't in direct competition with DirecTV's other DVRs. I suspect this will put some restrictions on what it can do. Of course I've been known to be wrong before. 

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

cmtar said:


> is there thing that has been released about this, specs, what it looks like, gui, what it will do etc or is this just 111pgs of talking about it lol


Just 69 pages(I have 40 posts per page) of talking about it. :lol:

It is a discussion forum after all. :grin:


----------



## Tom_S

Steve said:


> I'm sure it will be as fully-featured as DirecTV will will allow. Not sure what the cost will be, but even at $5/month per household, every 1% of the world-wide DirecTV customer base TiVo can acquire is worth over $10,000,000 a year... virtually pure profit. /steve


What kind of math is that! With about 18 million subscribers if 1% convert(which is ALOT!) that would give you 180,000 TiVo subscribers. At $5 each you are looking at $900,000 total. That is a big if on that 1% number as well and far shy of 10 million.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom_S said:


> What kind of math is that! With about 18 million subscribers if 1% convert(which is ALOT!) that would give you 180,000 TiVo subscribers. At $5 each you are looking at $900,000 total. That is a big if on that 1% number as well and far shy of 10 million.


Don't forget to multiply by 12


----------



## Lee L

Burn!


----------



## Steve

If I'm not mistaken, TiVO MRV is really more like DirecTV On Demand. I.e., you start a file copy from one box to another and then begin local playback of the copy. That probably won't work on the DirecTV platform, because of the way DirecTV encryption works. /steve


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Don't forget to multiply by 12


And that TiVo's fiscal year 2009 Net Income was a whopping $109 million (including proceeds from the Echostar lawsuit, if I'm not mistaken). So any new revenues from DirecTV subscribers will dramatically improve their bottom line. /steve


----------



## mp11

bonscott87 said:


> Now certainly specs may change before release but I think people are really setting themselves up for disappointment if they are planning on this box to have a lot of Tivo unique features in terms of connectivity.
> Tivo MRV, 2Go and media share? Probably not
> 
> 
> 
> My contract expires in Sept. What this new DirecTivo comes with will weigh heavily on my decision to stay with Directv. Why would it not have MRV and T2Go? Lets put it this way, Directv wants this Tivo to be a success...but not too much as to make their product look....well like it does. If it has no MRV, no T2Go = no go for me.
Click to expand...


----------



## Steve

mp11 said:


> My contract expires in Sept. What this new DirecTivo comes with will weigh heavily on my decision to stay with Directv. Why would it not have MRV and T2Go? Lets put it this way, Directv wants this Tivo to be a success...but not too much as to make their product look....well like it does. If it has no MRV, no T2Go = no go for me.


May not have TiVo's MRV for the reasons I stated above. As far as other services, FWIW on March 2, Tom Rogers said: _"Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR *will include popular TiVo broadband features*, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base on day-one of the launch."_

That could easily mean just "some" selected broadband features, however. /steve


----------



## bonscott87

mp11 said:


> Why would it not have MRV and T2Go? Lets put it this way, Directv wants this Tivo to be a success...but not too much as to make their product look....well like it does. If it has no MRV, no T2Go = no go for me.


It will, but it will be *DirecTV's* version. Again, the press release stated that it will be built to run *on DirecTV's platform*. Why would they implimnet Tivo MRV which wouldn't talk with or could be used on the DirecTV DVRs? The whole point is interoperability across the entire DirecTV platform, including the new Tivo. Using Tivo MRV would be completely against that. As for T2Go. No way DirecTV will allow it. They are very much protective of keeping programs within their own network and not able to get out. Always have been. And again, they have and are working on their own solution. Thus it will use whatever DirecTV has for a 2Go product.

Will it have other online stuff like Netflix and Amazon VOD? Could very well be. Depends if DirecTV sees it as competition for their VOD.

I certainly could be wrong but only pointing out the obvious based on what we know.


----------



## mp11

Steve said:


> May not have TiVo's MRV for the reasons I stated above. As far as other services, FWIW on March 2, Tom Rogers said: _"Additionally, we continue to work on our new DIRECTV HD DVR. The new HD DVR *will include popular TiVo broadband features*, and will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base on day-one of the launch."_
> 
> That could easily mean just "some" selected broadband features, however. /steve


Time will tell. Hope it happens soon. I talked to a Directv CSR a couple of hours ago about issues with my HR21. I told her that when my contract is over, I was leaving Directv. I brought up the upcoming new Tivo( because I could see she wouldn't), and that it may get me to stay. She metioned "late summer". Ofcourse she may have said that for my benefit.  But its not the first time I'd heard that timeline. So who knows.

I really would like to stay with Directv, but if I choose cable it would be nice to have a full blown 100% Tivo.


----------



## mp11

bonscott87 said:


> It will, but it will be *DirecTV's* version. Again, the press release stated that it will be built to run *on DirecTV's platform*. Why would they implimnet Tivo MRV which wouldn't talk with or could be used on the DirecTV DVRs? The whole point is interoperability across the entire DirecTV platform, including the new Tivo. Using Tivo MRV would be completely against that. As for T2Go. No way DirecTV will allow it. They are very much protective of keeping programs within their own network and not able to get out. Always have been. And again, they have and are working on their own solution. Thus it will use whatever DirecTV has for a 2Go product.
> 
> Will it have other online stuff like Netflix and Amazon VOD? Could very well be. Depends if DirecTV sees it as competition for their VOD.
> 
> I certainly could be wrong but only pointing out the obvious based on what we know.


Makes alot of sense Scott. Thats probably how its gonna play out.


----------



## Sixto

* TiVo MRV - easy for TiVo to implement. maybe very easy. 
* DirecTV MRV - may take months to implement.
TiVo MRV copies the recording and uses the basic robust TiVo TrickPlay. DirecTV MRV would require a newly designed DLNA compliant environment. Gotta believe that could take months-and-months to implement correctly. Agree that it may be needed to interoperate but it's going to take a major coding effort while TiVo MRV may come with minimal to no effort.

*TiVo2Go - while I agree it probably won't be supported, if they don't have it I may no longer be interested. It works GREAT. And if TiVo can get CableLabs to agree to it for HD, why can't satellite recordings be allowed. DirecTV have stronger HD protection needs then cable? Maybe so. I thought CableLabs was strict.

* TiVo Desktop - while I'm a huge HR2x supporter, man I just find the TiVo Desktop solution to be so much easier and rock solid. and quick. you can browse through dozens of photo folders on a remote PC effortlessly. And it's so easy for mom/pop users to setup. So easy, lightning quick, and robust.

* TiVo Search - I was referring to the TiVo Search Beta, not the regular search. It's in HD and way cool.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> * TiVo MRV - easy for TiVo to implement. maybe very easy.
> * DirecTV MRV - may take months to implement.
> TiVo MRV copies the recording and uses the basic robust TiVo TrickPlay. DirecTV MRV would require a newly designed DLNA compliant environment. Gotta believe that could take months-and-months to implement correctly. Agree that it may be needed to interoperate but it's going to take a major coding effort while TiVo MRV may come with minimal to no effort.


They'd have to get around the D* encryption schemes that prevent copies from playing back on boxes other than the one that recorded them, unless DirecTV allows them to be decrypted/re-encrypted to the new box. /steve


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> They'd have to get around the D* encryption schemes that prevent copies from playing back on boxes other than the one that recorded them. /steve


figured that would be part of the minimal effort part where they change the key used or just replace the key when MRV copying the recording to the 2nd box. how hard can that be. certainly easier then writing an entirely new DLNA compliant MRV Trickplay environment. That would be major work.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> figured that would be part of the minimal effort part where they change the key used or just replace the key when MRV copying the recording to the 2nd box. how hard can that be. certainly easier then writing an entirely new DLNA compliant MRV Trickplay environment. That would be major work.


But based on past history and DIRECTV's conservative approach towards DRM .. I think you know where the copy/play MRV is headed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> But based on past history and DIRECTV's conservative approach towards DRM .. I think you know where the copy/play MRV is headed.


I'd tend to agree that's one wheel that won't get drastically re-invented.


----------



## spartanstew

mp11 said:


> She metioned "late summer". Ofcourse she may have said that for my benefit.  But its not the first time I'd heard that timeline. So who knows.


Not the first time I've heard it either, but late summer 2010 is probably closer to the truth.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

I've heard late summer from a couple random installers at Arby's getting lunch. I've also heard not until next year from a CSR. And the installer yesterday had no idea at all they were getting back together.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> But based on past history and DIRECTV's conservative approach towards DRM .. I think you know where the copy/play MRV is headed.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'd tend to agree that's one wheel that won't get drastically re-invented.


Rounder is not always better. 

DMR is not going to go away....no matter how I wish for it. 

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tallgntlmn said:


> I've heard late summer from a couple random installers at Arby's getting lunch.


Well there ya have it....a solid, reliable bit of news. :lol:


----------



## Tallgntlmn

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Well there ya have it....a solid, reliable bit of news. :lol:


Yeah, no doubt, huh?


----------



## dreadlk

Most people, 99% have no idea what a HR21 or HR23 is even my friends who have HR21's don't know thats what it's called, but they all have heard the name Tivo and heard good things about it. So if a CSR comes on the phone and says would you like a Tivo or an HR23 for your living room? What do you think 95% of the people will say?



hdtvfan0001 said:


> ....I suspect no where near that %.
> 
> In fact where Tivo is available, it rarely approaches 50%, even when discounts are applied, such as cerain cable providers. The added costs for Tivo, as well as some folks preferences going another direction, assures 95% will never be reached.


----------



## dreadlk

I understand Doug but Tivo holding the cards/Patents for all of Directv's future DVR's is not a place I would want to be in if I was Directv. This is going to be History repeating itself



Doug Brott said:


> TiVo provides no content, just the recorder software. Even in this arrangement, DIRECTV owns the program distribution rights (monthly subscription) and the hardware distribution rights (another monthy subscription). If having TiVo brings more customers to the table, what has DIRECTV lost? While I disagree with your 95% number above, regardless of the percentage, DIRECTV still maintains 100% of the customer base.


----------



## dreadlk

I would also get a Tivo box and im pretty sure that almost everyone here that has been having 771's, reboots and missed recordings would be going Tivo and the die hard Hr2X lovers would get one just out of curiousity.

BTW I don't think they have changed the HR20 model 3 times because they are not happy with the performance, at least I hope they have not done it for that reason, because the HR20 seems to be more reliable and faster than the HR23 so they would be moving backwards  My take is that they are constantly trying to see how cheapley they can make an HR2x and still have reasonable performance.



keenan said:


> The TiVo option will almost certainly be more expensive than DirecTV's normal DVR so I really doubt you'll see a 95% uptake on it. DirecTV also knows that there's many current subs(SD) and potentially new subs(both SD and HD) that given the option of using a TiVo would be more inclined to stay and/or move to DirecTV.
> 
> DirecTV already has the largest selection of HD channels, has the best sports packages, has image quality generally on par with the best of cable, adding TiVo to the mix makes DirecTV a very compelling product, having the best of, or equal to, any other provider out there.
> 
> Regarding the new DirecTV DVR's every 6 mos or so, I don't believe it's quite that frequent, but even so, that sort of says to me that they are not happy with what they have, in other words, the buggy machines are why they keep coming out with newer models.
> 
> A TiVo DVR will never replace the D* DVR, but I know many, myself included, that will leap at the first opportunity to dump the D* DVR in favor of a TiVo designed unit.


----------



## loudo

dreadlk said:


> I would also get a Tivo box and im pretty sure that almost everyone here that has been having 771's, reboots and missed recordings would be going Tivo and the die hard rest would get one just out of curiousity.


I can remember some of your above mentioned problems occurring when I had my HR10-250 TIVO receiver. What makes you think they won't happen with a TIVO unit?

I will look at the unit, its features, the lease price, the extra monthly cost over my current DVR cost, before I make a decision if I want to change. It will take a lot to get me away from my HR20-700s, I don't really want to have to buy any AM-21 add on receivers, to be able to get my OTA channels, that DirecTV doesn't offer.


----------



## loudo

dreadlk said:


> So if a CSR comes on the phone and says would you like a Tivo or an HR23 for your living room? What do you think 95% of the people will say?


How much extra is it going to cost me, compared to the HR23????


----------



## Steve

loudo said:


> How much extra is it going to cost me, compared to the HR23????


Exactly. And the next question will be, "What do I get for the extra money?"  /steve


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> [...]* TiVo Search - I was referring to the TiVo Search Beta, not the regular search. It's in HD and way cool.


Check these out for more on search:

Cue this one to 2:50:


----------



## Doug Brott

dreadlk said:


> I understand Doug but Tivo holding the cards/Patents for all of Directv's future DVR's is not a place I would want to be in if I was Directv. This is going to be History repeating itself


There are agreements already through 2018 .. and isn't that about the time the Patents expire? :scratchin

Either way, Certainly not something I'd be worried about if I were DIRECTV. Clearly TiVo and DIRECTV has already shown an ability to keep some relationship over the years.


----------



## mp11

Tallgntlmn said:


> And the installer yesterday had no idea at all they were getting back together
> 
> 
> 
> Makes you wonder if Directv ever put out a memo of the news to it's own employees. :sure:
Click to expand...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dreadlk said:


> Most people, 99% have no idea what a HR21 or HR23 is even my friends who have HR21's don't know thats what it's called, but they all have heard the name Tivo and heard good things about it. So if a CSR comes on the phone and says would you like a Tivo or an HR23 for your living room? What do you think 95% of the people will say?


*"Which one costs less?" *


----------



## mp11

Steve said:


> Check these out for more on search:
> 
> Cue this one to 2:50:


Awesome! Those are the features that will send me to cable and TivoHD.


----------



## sigma1914

Steve said:


> Exactly. And the next question will be, "What do I get for the extra money?"  /steve


Annoying "features" that were able to be turned off like, Suggestions & that damn Tivo-bubblepop-ish menu sound. All that, plus a pretty green progress bar and waiting 2+ minutes for your Series Link to accept the command!


----------



## sigma1914

mp11 said:


> Awesome! Those are the features that will send me to cable and TivoHD.


Just because it orders a search by popularity? I'd never go to cable for that...or for Tivo.


----------



## dreadlk

Thats way ahead of the HR2x my only worry is how buggy is it? I am really tired of being a Beta tester, and Tivo 3 looks like it's on the bleeding edge of Technology.



Steve said:


> Check these out for more on search:
> 
> Cue this one to 2:50:


----------



## mp11

sigma1914 said:


> Just because it orders a search by popularity? I'd never go to cable for that...or for Tivo.


OK HR20 guy, I was mostly refering to UTUBE and Netflix. Or did you even notice those?  You are I wont live long enough to see Directv feature those.


----------



## dreadlk

Nice to have but I think I would agree, Alphabetical might be better.

BTW now Tivo has more patents to use.



sigma1914 said:


> Just because it orders a search by popularity? I'd never go to cable for that...or for Tivo.


----------



## dreadlk

If it's a question of $100 or $200 more it's not even a factor for me at this point! I have spent so much already that the now it's all about what works and what will record properly.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> *"Which one costs less?" *


----------



## sigma1914

mp11 said:


> OK HR20 guy, I was mostly refering to UTUBE and Netflix. Or did you even notice those?


I have a computer and BR player for those. Sorry I don't drool over Tivo like so many.


----------



## dreadlk

I thought those where very cool also. My only concern is that HD movies must take days to stream in even on a fairly fast connection.



mp11 said:


> OK HR20 guy, I was mostly refering to UTUBE and Netflix. Or did you even notice those?  You are I wont live long enough to see Directv feature those.


----------



## bonscott87

mp11 said:


> Awesome! Those are the features that will send me to cable and TivoHD.


Not me. On the rare occasion that I actually do a search no way I want it by "popularity". Please. Order it alphabetical. I *hate* things that order by popularity because I can't find anything! Only if I could actually turn off that "feature" would I even use a search on a DVR that did that. Honestly, if it couldn't be that would be reason #1 to never get a Tivo again for me.


----------



## Brennok

All this talk about the new Directivo possibly not having features like Tivo To Go and MRV is depressing. Without these features, I will definitely be kicking myself for not going with Fios+Tivo earlier.

Another advantage with TTG is the ability to backup all your recordings, well ones that aren't flagged, to a home media server. This means only upgrading the hard drives on the server to make sure you have enough space and also then the ability to call up any show from the server for centralized browsing. 

Another big advantage with Tivo is more than 50 season passes. This has always been the deal killer for me when it came to the DTV DVRs. If they had had this I may have given them more of a chance but with this limit I have no reason to try. It would take me 4 DVRs to every Tivo I currently run. 

Netflix on the Tivo will be nice since we only have a 360 in one room.


----------



## loudo

Brennok said:


> All this talk about the new Directivo possibly not having features like Tivo To Go and MRV is depressing. Without these features, I will definitely be kicking myself for not going with Fios+Tivo earlier.


There is really nothing to get discouraged about. Nothing has been officially announced about what features the unit will or will not have. Everything here is just speculation, and hopes for features. Unless something leaks out from the developers, we probably won't know until it is released.


----------



## AZ_Engineer

Tom_S said:


> What kind of math is that! With about 18 million subscribers if 1% convert(which is ALOT!) that would give you 180,000 TiVo subscribers. At $5 each you are looking at $900,000 total. That is a big if on that 1% number as well and far shy of 10 million.


I was in this industry a few years ago. I am fairly certain that the first deal for Tivo was $1 a month from DirectTV.

Also, each channel DirectTV carries is individually licensed. There are all kinds of restrictions in these licenses, and most now contain clauses that do not allow DirectTV to deploy boxes that will allow the content to be moved off the box, (Tivo to go type stuff). The content owners and channels have a strange sense of what their content is worth. I was in meetings where content owners (studios) we looking for technology that would require a pay for every play in PVRs.

If DirectTV does a Tivo (and I hope they do as I prefer it to the HR21s in my house now), I would be shocked to see it support MRV and Tivo to go. I am hopeful, but sadly pessimistic.


----------



## mitchelljd

For the new Directv, i'd really hate its features to be limited.
I know it is all speculation, but i'd want a full feature set

1- unlimited subscriptions
2- option to add extra internal hard drive, to augment current one & add capacity
3- tivo 2 go
4- allow transfer to programs like Toast for mac, so you can back them up to disc.
5- Blockbuster for Tivo. would love to do video rental from the tivo box
6- Netflix VOD access
7- Amazon VOD access
8- networked tivo's. allow multiple tivo's on a home network to share programming and watch on different tv's. ie if your living room has LOST, allow you to access it from your bedroom. 
9- program remotely

If directv cripples the Tivo, what is the point? we want the best in leading technology, hell we are going to pay for it!! 

otherwise, i'd start demanding to legislators that Directv and Dish need to start offering the functionality to tru-2way cards that would work with satellite tv provider. 

hey, if Cable companies need to play by those rules, why not satellite companies?????


----------



## Doug Brott

AZ_Engineer said:


> If DirectTV does a Tivo (and I hope they do as I prefer it to the HR21s in my house now), I would be shocked to see it support MRV and Tivo to go. I am hopeful, but sadly pessimistic.


As long as either can be "streaming" vs. "copying" then I'd say it's got a shot at being OK. But anything that involves copying content from one location to another .. yeah, I suspect that will get nixed regardless of how much the consumer wants it.


----------



## Doug Brott

mitchelljd said:


> For the new Directv, i'd really hate its features to be limited.
> I know it is all speculation, but i'd want a full feature set
> 
> 1- unlimited subscriptions


:scratchin



> 2- option to add extra internal hard drive, to augment current one & add capacity


I'd be surprised to see this, actually.



> 3- tivo 2 go


My speculation .. not gonna happen



> 4- allow transfer to programs like Toast for mac, so you can back them up to disc.


ditto .. Don't see this happening



> 5- Blockbuster for Tivo. would love to do video rental from the tivo box


I'd say this probably primarily depends on TiVo, but I have zero information to tell you either way.



> 6- Netflix VOD access
> 7- Amazon VOD access


ditto .. don't see why this couldn't be an option as long as DIRECTV VOD and PPV are also available.



> 8- networked tivo's. allow multiple tivo's on a home network to share programming and watch on different tv's. ie if your living room has LOST, allow you to access it from your bedroom.


I expect this to happen .. plus, I'll go one farther and suggest that this should happen between TiVo and DIRECTV receivers .. why not as long as the protocol is the same.



> 9- program remotely


This might happen, but you can't do that today on the HR2x so .. who knows.



> If directv cripples the Tivo, what is the point? we want the best in leading technology, hell we are going to pay for it!!


What if TiVo wants to extra money for the "cool" features. Should DIRECTV pay? Will you pay? It's not always DIRECTV's fault here.



> otherwise, i'd start demanding to legislators that Directv and Dish need to start offering the functionality to tru-2way cards that would work with satellite tv provider.
> 
> hey, if Cable companies need to play by those rules, why not satellite companies?????


Hey .. Good luck with that ..


----------



## keenan

Doug Brott said:


> :scratchin


I believe he's referring to that idiotic 50 season pass limit, or whatever it is DirecTV calls them. That is one of the most annoying things about the HR2X series.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> Not me. On the rare occasion that I actually do a search no way I want it by "popularity". Please. Order it alphabetical. I *hate* things that order by popularity because I can't find anything! Only if I could actually turn off that "feature" would I even use a search on a DVR that did that. Honestly, if it couldn't be that would be reason #1 to never get a Tivo again for me.


There were a couple of other CES demo videos I didn't link to that showed that you can choose alpha sort order instead. Just search "TiVo search" on youtube. /steve


----------



## kiljoy

Thanks for those videos, Steve. I hadn't seen TiVo's new search in person and I couldn't imagine how it could've been better. Obviously I was wrong, because that's exactly what I want in a DVR.

I never understood the obsession with being able to create a Season Pass from the guide on the HR2x because having only used TiVo I maybe only ever look at the guide once a year. To me, an intuitive, functional search feature is far more valuable. I doubt I've ever manually entered a channel number on the TiVos I've used since 1999 now that I think about it, it'd be lunacy to have to start learning what channel things are on since I've been free of that for a decade now.

Tony


----------



## Tallgntlmn

kiljoy said:


> I doubt I've ever manually entered a channel number on the TiVos I've used since 1999 now that I think about it, it'd be lunacy to have to start learning what channel things are on since I've been free of that for a decade now.


Wow in regards to never putting in a channel by number. My typical routine on Sunday's in the fall is pushing 709 <enter>, 704 <enter>, down arrow, 700 <enter>, 706 <enter> all in my half asleep football stupor of the 3rd quarter variety. Obviously that sequence speaks to the ONE feature that the new receiver MUST have. You must know what it is from that sequence.

I don't think I've really used the search feature too often. Other than to find certain shows I've heard about or to set up recordings, anyway. The guide on the other hand, hit it every evening looking for something to watch.


----------



## mp11

mitchelljd said:


> If directv cripples the Tivo, what is the point? we want the best in leading technology
> 
> 
> 
> From what alot of people have said here, that wont happen with this upcoming Tivo, the only way to get that will be with a "true" Tivo.
Click to expand...


----------



## Steve

kiljoy said:


> Thanks for those videos, Steve. I hadn't seen TiVo's new search in person and I couldn't imagine how it could've been better. Obviously I was wrong, because that's exactly what I want in a DVR.


I think the search is very cool as well. Very responsive and I like the way the suggestions flow across the top of the screen, rather than actually get recorded. Nice use of the expansive HD playing field, IMO.

That said, I guess a lot of folks are cognizant of the title, day and time for the shows they want to record, or perhaps use the GUIDE much the same way they'd look at tonight's show listings in the daily paper. I say this because according to this poll, 70% of 176 respondents go to the GUIDE first when it comes time to schedule a recording. /steve


----------



## texasbrit

kiljoy said:


> I never understood the obsession with being able to create a Season Pass from the guide on the HR2x because having only used TiVo I maybe only ever look at the guide once a year. To me, an intuitive, functional search feature is far more valuable. I doubt I've ever manually entered a channel number on the TiVos I've used since 1999 now that I think about it, it'd be lunacy to have to start learning what channel things are on since I've been free of that for a decade now.
> 
> Tony


Interesting. I do not often use a search, most of my series links are set up though the guide. And I do use channel number entry (although I have a Pronto and just select a channel icon) because I sometimes just want to see "what's on" a particular channel, or I want to watch the news on local TV, or CNN etc


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> As long as either can be "streaming" vs. "copying" then I'd say it's got a shot at being OK. But anything that involves copying content from one location to another .. yeah, I suspect that will get nixed regardless of how much the consumer wants it.


I want to put my recordings onto my netbook (or internet tablet, or cellphone) and take it on vacation or business travel. I don't see how streaming works for that. Considering the audience for this potential HD TIVO is the hardened TIVO fan (or non-fans of the HR2x), I don't see how D* is going to generate interest in a box that is no different than the HR2x except for the UI.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

RCY said:


> I want to put my recordings onto my netbook (or internet tablet, or cellphone) and take it on vacation or business travel. I don't see how streaming works for that. Considering the audience for this potential HD TIVO is the hardened TIVO fan (or non-fans of the HR2x), I don't see how D* is going to generate interest in a box that is no different than the HR2x except for the UI.


I think the restriction it DRM.

I know others seem to ignore it but DirecTV is complying with it and, in my estimation, this will extend to TiVo.

That isn't to say there won't be other unique TiVo features but I don't think this will be one of them.

However, I've been wrong before....:grin:

Mike


----------



## Steve

I agree with Mike's and Doug's observations about DirectTV's DRM. That said, I wonder why DirecTV feels they have to be more strict than TiVo and Dish, among others? TiVo's been providing "local copy" MRV for a while now, and AFAIK, Dish has always allowed archiving and moving files from one box to another.

None of the content providers seem to be objecting to those implementations, so I'm not sure why D* feels compelled to hold themselves to a higher standard. Just my .02. /steve


----------



## ATARI

Steve said:


> I agree with Mike's and Doug's observations about DirectTV's DRM. That said, I wonder why DirecTV feels they have to be more strict than TiVo and Dish, among others? TiVo's been providing "local copy" MRV for a while now, and AFAIK, Dish has always allowed archiving and moving files from one box to another.
> 
> None of the content providers seem to be objecting to those implementations, so I'm not sure why D* feels compelled to hold themselves to a higher standard. Just my .02. /steve


I'm sure if you could dig deep enough, you would find the answer to be $.


----------



## keenan

ATARI said:


> I'm sure if you could dig deep enough, you would find the answer to be $.


The content all comes from the same providers, and I can't imagine DirecTV would have any less clout than TiVo when it came to off-device use licensing.

I think DirecTV's real issue with it is their heavy internal encryption rather than any licensing problem, getting non-D* devices to deal with that encryption seems to be the likely problem. With their PC playback app they even have some sort of screen-cap lockout, that's getting pretty picky.


----------



## Steve

keenan said:


> The content all comes from the same providers, and I can't imagine DirecTV would have any less clout than TiVo when it came to off-device use licensing.
> 
> I think DirecTV's real issue with it is their heavy internal encryption rather than any licensing problem, getting non-D* devices to deal with that encryption seems to be the likely problem. With their PC playback app they even have some sort of screen-cap lockout, that's getting pretty picky.


Well they do deal with it for their own MRV. They apparently decrypt the file on the host machine and re-encrypt it on the way out to the client box. I guess the question is, will they let TiVo have access to the keys to do the same? If so, TiVo's "local copy MRV" could be implemented, at least in theory. /steve


----------



## keenan

Steve said:


> Well they do deal with it for their own MRV. They apparently decrypt the file on the host machine and re-encrypt it on the way out to the client box. I guess the question is, will they let TiVo have access to the keys to do the same? If so, TiVo's "local copy MRV" could be implemented, at least in theory. /steve


MRV with current D* boxes and a TiVo/D* box shouldn't be a problem I would think, I was thinking more along the lines of viewing your D* content on an iPod for example. TiVo's TiVoDesktop app allows for this sort usage, of course that's only with TiVo "manufactured" machines, having that sort of versatility with DirecTV would be nice.


----------



## Jhon69

Well I for one cannot see the new HD DirecTivo being throttled down when it comes to what features it will have reasons:

The new HD DirecTivo will be marketed as a "Premium" service HDDVR and the DVR fee will reflect that it is a "Premium" service HDDVR.While before the services on the older HD DirecTivos are throttled down,but so is the DVR fee price.


----------



## RCY

MicroBeta said:


> I think the restriction it DRM.
> 
> I know others seem to ignore it but DirecTV is complying with it and, in my estimation, this will extend to TiVo.
> 
> That isn't to say there won't be other unique TiVo features but I don't think this will be one of them.
> 
> However, I've been wrong before....:grin:
> 
> Mike


I'm not asking for a perfect MPEG-4 copy of the original, I just want a compressed version that will look ok on a mobile device. Currently for my OTA I use BeyondTV Showsqueeze to compress my MPEG-2 HD recordings to 400x224 at 30fps. Looks fine on a small screen, but there's no danger of anyone wanting to see that on their 50" plasma. My last business trip I had 10 hours in airports or on airplanes waiting, and it was nice to have something to watch. I'd love to have a reason to step up to a D* HD DVR, really. TivoToGo (mobile capability) and DLB are big ones for me.

All this means is that if I decide to stay with D* and move to HD, I'll buy a Happaugue HD PVR and capture the component out on my HTPC with BeyondTV and showsqueeze it. The original may not as clean as the pristine MPEG-4, but pretty close. Probably won't be able to tell the difference on a mobile device. The irony is that D* will have caused me to make a much higher quality copy than I would have otherwise needed.


----------



## Christopher Gould

RCY said:


> I'm not asking for a perfect MPEG-4 copy of the original, I just want a compressed version that will look ok on a mobile device. Currently for my OTA I use BeyondTV Showsqueeze to compress my MPEG-2 HD recordings to 400x224 at 30fps. Looks fine on a small screen, but there's no danger of anyone wanting to see that on their 50" plasma. My last business trip I had 10 hours in airports or on airplanes waiting, and it was nice to have something to watch. I'd love to have a reason to step up to a D* HD DVR, really. TivoToGo (mobile capability) and DLB are big ones for me.
> 
> All this means is that if I decide to stay with D* and move to HD, I'll buy a Happaugue HD PVR and capture the component out on my HTPC with BeyondTV and showsqueeze it. The original may not as clean as the pristine MPEG-4, but pretty close. Probably won't be able to tell the difference on a mobile device. The irony is that D* will have caused me to make a much higher quality copy than I would have otherwise needed.


i don't know if this would work for you, but yo might look at it

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSi...ideo/Studio+Family/Instant+Video+Recorder.htm


----------



## Shades228

Tivo is making their software interface Java based for cable box's. I wouldn't be surprised if the HR series could run it already. I'd stay tuned about their software coming out. TiVo is already trying to get out of the manufacturing business and just into the software support business. If they can create an application that's universal across all video providers it would be a huge win for them.


----------



## RCY

Christopher Gould said:


> i don't know if this would work for you, but yo might look at it
> 
> http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSi...ideo/Studio+Family/Instant+Video+Recorder.htm


Thanks for the suggestion, but if I have to capture the video already, I might as well port it into the application I already have setup to manage my HTPC recordings. And save $5 a month for DVR service, and whatever the upcharge for the handicapped HD TIVO would be.

What should happen is that the D* DVR should be able to do this task for me in the background (like BeyondTV) and allow me to hook up a usb drive or mobile device and download the file directly. (like, well, you know.) It's a non-starter to have to set up a capture device and playback hours of video to capture and compress.

D* can lead or get out of the way. They've chosen to get out of the way.


----------



## bobnielsen

Per Tivo's latest 10-K filing, Tivo is now saying 2010:

"We have agreed to work with DIRECTV to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform which we expect to launch to consumers in calendar year 2010."


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> Per Tivo's latest 10-K filing, Tivo is now saying 2010:
> 
> "We have agreed to work with DIRECTV to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform which we expect to launch to consumers in calendar year 2010."


thanks for the heads up. been checking their site every day for that 10-K. last years wasn't until 4/15. thx!


----------



## Sixto

As of January 31, 2009, we had approximately 1.7 million subscriptions through this relationship. In the fiscal year ended January 31, 2009, we reported $22.9 million of DIRECTV-related revenues.

Under the terms of this non-exclusive arrangement, TiVo expects to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV’s broadband-enabled HD DVR for a launch to consumers as soon as possible in calendar year 2010.

Under this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo (when and if the new version of the TiVo service is deployed) than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. The Company will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded by DIRECTV. DIRECTV also has certain additional annual obligations to market and promote the new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo Service once it has launched.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> thanks for the heads up. been checking their site every day for that 10-K. last years wasn't until 4/15. thx!


Yup. That's what it says. The reason given is: _"[...]DIRECTV will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD platform described in the Significant Relationships section of Item 1. [...]"_

Anyone know what that "new HD platform" is? Sounds like TiVo could be ready earlier, but that DirecTV may be holding up the introduction to coincide with their own marketing plans. /steve

*EDIT: Just read the 10k. They're actually referencing the new DirecTiVo's, and not a new DirecTV non-TiVo DVR, which I misread into that statement.*


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

bobnielsen said:


> Per Tivo's latest 10-K filing, Tivo is now saying 2010:
> 
> "We have agreed to work with DIRECTV to develop a version of the *TiVo service* for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform which we expect to launch to consumers in calendar year 2010."


So it's not dead


----------



## hdtvfan0001

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> So it's not dead


Rumors of its early demise were premature.


----------



## Steve

Well, so much for my gut feeling that these new boxes were gonna be ready by fall, 2009. 

Interesting that even with just 1.7 million DirecTiVo subs remaining as of January 2009, DirecTV still accounts for almost 10% of TiVo's revenues. /steve


----------



## jdspencer

It looks to me like they are waiting for the next satellite (D12) to be launched.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> the sad part (for me) is the hint that we may not see an HR2x follow-on until 2010. OMG.
> 
> while the new TiVo sounded interesting, was being realistic that it won't contain any of the really cool stuff (TiVo2Go, ...) but we'd definitely have an HR24/HR30 in Q3 to replace the 3-year-old HR20's.
> 
> geez, if we need to wait until 2010 for a BCM7405 equipped HR2x then that's a bummer. ruin the day bummer (if true).


forget this post. SMILE!

the actual wording is:However, we expect continued losses in our installed base of MSOs/Broadcasters subscriptions as DIRECTV will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD platform described in the Significant Relationships section of Item 1.​will interpret this as "HD platform" refers to the TiVo HD platform.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> forget this post. SMILE!
> 
> the actual wording is:However, we expect continued losses in our installed base of MSOs/Broadcasters subscriptions as DIRECTV will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD platform described in the Significant Relationships section of Item 1.​will interpret this as "HD platform" refers to the TiVo HD platform.


Agree. See my "edit" above. /s


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> Agree. See my "edit" above. /s


yep, happy day again.

still hoping for new HR2x BCM7405 (or equivalent) in 2009.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> yep, happy day again.
> 
> still hoping for new HR2x BCM7405 (or equivalent) in 2009.


Curious why you think they might ship a more expensive box without introducing new (non-HR21/22/23) features to go along with it?

Or are you guessing it will be the "whole-home" box? /steve


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Here's the pdf.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-sec

Mike


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> Curious why you think they might ship a more expensive box without introducing new (non-HR21/22/23) features to go along with it?
> 
> Or are you guessing it will be the "whole-home" box? /steve


with the HR2x being mostly a 2005/2006 design, expecting a 2008/2009 refresh. been mentioned previously that the BCM7405 wasn't much cost difference. they may also need to introduce some other under-the-hood hardware possibly to enable SWM MRV (just guessing).


----------



## keenan

Has anyone found this section?



> in the Significant Relationships section of Item 1


----------



## harsh

jdspencer said:


> It looks to me like they are waiting for the next satellite (D12) to be launched.


TiVo isn't constrained by the launch of any satellites. They need to get their DirecTiVo customers into the new unit so they can partake of the "significantly higher" revenues that it will represent for TiVo.


----------



## harsh

keenan said:


> Has anyone found this section?


http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com...7510-78750&type=sect&dcn=0001193125-09-071887


----------



## bonscott87

LOL. Haven't many of us been saying 2010 since the start? When has Tivo delivered anything on time? 

Anyway, it does confirm it's "not dead yet Jim". The delay could be anything from a Tivo issue of having more problems with DirecTV hardware then they anticipated to a delay in DirecTV getting the new platform up and running to the point they can get Tivo reference hardware to work with.

I think it also pretty much guarantee's that this will be a brand new box, HR30 if you will, that can run either DirecTV DVR+ or Tivo on it, customer's choice (with an upcharge for Tivo of course). Which is probably a good thing since the HR2x series will be pushing 4 years old by the time this comes out. 

Also due in 2010 per DirecTV's last couple calls is their new home server. So 2010 should be a big year in hardware upgrades and changeover.


----------



## keenan

harsh said:


> http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com...7510-78750&type=sect&dcn=0001193125-09-071887


Thanks.


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> Under the terms of this non-exclusive arrangement, TiVo expects to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR for a launch to consumers as soon as possible in calendar year 2010.
> DIRECTV also has certain additional annual obligations to market and promote the new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo Service once it has launched.


To me this sounds like D* hardware running TiVo software.

And hoping to launch it in Q1 2010.


----------



## Flyrx7

Sounds to me like a delay in the hardware is what's holding this up. It also sounds like the Tivo service won't be available on any current equipment. At least they said it won't happen this year, instead of stringing us along. Now that my commitment is up I'm not so sure I can wait another year for DLB. 

I think we can finally put a fork in this thread.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> LOL. Haven't many of us been saying 2010 since the start? When has Tivo delivered anything on time?
> [...]


If this delay isn't somehow being caused by DirecTV, I'd be really ticked-off if I was a TiVo shareholder. The missed opportunity cost of waiting is huge, IMHO, since rightly or wrongly, the June digital transition is going to push a lot of folks who haven't already done so to finally upgrade to HD.

If I'm right, many SD DirecTiVo users will either finally upgrade to HD DVR's, or leave DirecTV altogether. Just my .02. /steve


----------



## Flyrx7

Steve said:


> If this delay isn't somehow being caused by DirecTV, I'd be really ticked-off if I was a TiVo shareholder. Just my .02. /steve


Who else would it be? It's been said that the Tivo software will not be offered until the new hardware is ready. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure D* is responsible for the hardware part of the equation.


----------



## smiddy

Steve said:


> If this delay isn't somehow being caused by DirecTV, I'd be really ticked-off if I was a TiVo shareholder. The missed opportunity cost of waiting is huge, IMHO, since rightly or wrongly, the June digital transition is going to push a lot of folks who haven't already done so to finally upgrade to HD.
> 
> If I'm right, many SD DirecTiVo users will either finally upgrade to HD DVR's, or leave DirecTV altogether. Just my .02. /steve


The perfect strategy if you ask me.


----------



## Steve

Flyrx7 said:


> Who else would it be? It's been said that the Tivo software will not be offered until the new hardware is ready.[...]


The current TiVoHD software runs on the same basic hardware/CPU configuration as the HR2x's, so there's no reason a version could not come out today, nor does the deal explicitly stipulate that TiVo must wait for a new platform. *Deal here.*

If TiVo is aware of what DirecTV's next generation hardware platform will be and decided to wait, that's another story. If so, I think they're missing an opportunity. /steve


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> If TiVo is aware of what DirecTV's next generation hardware platform will be and decided to wait, that's another story. If so, I think there missing an opportunity. /steve


I suspect there will be a few hardware changes (not major, likely storage) and then only the custom DirecTV Tivo code. That too, may have a few "unique" tweaks to it.

All in all, nothing that precludes them from a late 2009 delivery....but signs seem to point to 1Q 2010.


----------



## Steve

Steve said:


> If this delay isn't somehow being caused by DirecTV, I'd be really ticked-off if I was a TiVo shareholder. The missed opportunity cost of waiting is huge, IMHO, since rightly or wrongly, the June digital transition is going to push a lot of folks who haven't already done so to finally upgrade to HD.
> 
> If I'm right, many SD DirecTiVo users will either finally upgrade to HD DVR's, or leave DirecTV altogether. Just my .02. /steve





smiddy said:


> The perfect strategy if you ask me.


You mean leave DirecTV? Because if they wanted to upgrade to Direct HD boxes, they've had over 2 years to do so. /steve


----------



## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> [...] All in all, nothing that precludes them from a late 2009 delivery....but signs seem to point to 1Q 2010.


Ya. Since they explicitly said "calendar year 2010" in their SEC filing yesterday, I'm not sure they could release it earlier even if it turns out they're able to, for fear of being accused of manipulating news about the stock.

I defer to others who know more about reporting rules and regs to set me straight on how the SEC feels about positive "surprises". /steve


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> You mean leave DirecTV? Because if they wanted to upgrade to Direct HD boxes, they've had over 2 years to do so. /steve


I thought about leaving. But when I compared Comcast + TiVo, it would cost more. To me, the crappy Comcast picture, DLB and the other features were not worth the extra $20 per month it would have been after 6 months.

I was waiting because of the lack of DLB on the D* DVR's. And now unless DLB is added (or the something better) before the TiVo based receiver, I will be switching to that new receiver when it comes out. I just hope it has some of the more advanced features we see on the current Series 3.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Flyrx7 said:


> Who else would it be? It's been said that the Tivo software will not be offered until the new hardware is ready. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure D* is responsible for the hardware part of the equation.


I'm pretty sure we know it will be on a DirecTV platform.

I think the delay is due to trying to get their software to run on boxes made by different manufactures.

I detailed my basis for believing it's a DirecTV platform here

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2024773#post2024773

This is from that original post.



> We face risks in connection with our amended development and services agreements with DIRECTV for the development and deployment of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service.
> 
> We may encounter delays in development under our new agreement with DIRECTV . Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with our goal, but not a contractual obligation, to launch in the second half of calendar year 2009. *We face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product. If we are unable to successfully develop this new broadband-enabled HD DVR with TiVo service for deployment by DIRECTV, we would not be able to acquire new subscribers from DIRECTV under these new agreements and our business could be harmed.


This is similar to the latest filing (page 21 of the Word Doc format)...



> We may encounter delays in development under our new agreement with DIRECTV . Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform to deliver the new HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service to DIRECTV for a launch to consumers as soon as possible in calendar year 2010. *We may face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product. If we are unable to successfully develop this new broadband-enabled HD DVR with TiVo service for deployment by DIRECTV, we would not be able to acquire new subscribers from DIRECTV under these new agreements and our business could be harmed.


I still think it's based on the current platform which all use the BCM7401. Further, would DirecTV want a DirecTiVo with better hardware and performance then the DVR+ line? I'm not so sure. :scratchin

Although it would be nice to see some new hardware. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> Who else would it be? It's been said that the Tivo software will not be offered until the new hardware is ready. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure D* is responsible for the hardware part of the equation.


Where exactly has it been said that "TiVo software will not be offered until the new hardware is ready?"


----------



## compnurd

Wouldnt it HAVE to be new or differernt Hardware? Otherwise everyone would have to have Tivo service. How would they distinguish which HRx has it and which has the horrible direct tv interface


----------



## loudo

compnurd said:


> Wouldnt it HAVE to be new or differernt Hardware? Otherwise everyone would have to have Tivo service. How would they distinguish which HRx has it and which has the horrible direct tv interface


Don't see why it couldn't be done with the correct design. It could be something like HR25a would have regular DirecTV software, and HR25b could have TIVO software. Just like a computer, you can run the same computer on Windows XP or Vista operating systems.


----------



## harsh

compnurd said:


> Wouldnt it HAVE to be new or differernt Hardware?


The only "new hardware" mentioned in the redacted report was some sort of TiVo branding on the front of the unit; perhaps a sticker.

To date there hasn't been much solid evidence to suggest that it will be substantially different hardware-wise from the HR2x. Just because DIRECTV hasn't been able to pull it off doesn't mean that TiVo can't. Mac OS didn't used to run on Intel hardware and now it is difficult to distinguish the hardware.


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> The only "new hardware" mentioned in the redacted report was some sort of TiVo branding on the front of the unit; perhaps a sticker.
> 
> To date there hasn't been much solid evidence to suggest that it will be substantially different hardware-wise from the HR2x. *Just because DIRECTV hasn't been able to pull it off doesn't mean that TiVo can't.* Mac OS didn't used to run on Intel hardware and now it is difficult to distinguish the hardware.


You got me there. What is it that DirecTV hasn't been able to pull-off? /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> Just because DIRECTV hasn't been able to pull it off doesn't mean that TiVo can't.





Steve said:


> You got me there. What is it that DirecTV hasn't been able to pull-off?


I'd have to agree with Steve here. I actually have 4 different HR2x systems and personally I think they work great.


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> You got me there. What is it that DirecTV hasn't been able to pull-off?


Obviously they haven't been able to pull off eliminating any interest in a TiVo-powered product for one.

Some others (the apologists will attest that these are either in process, not desirable or they've never experienced problems with them):

1. CIG
2. DLB
3. Fully functional MRV
4. Ability to scan for OTA channels
5. DIRECTV2Go
6. Fully functional media player
7. Anything else that has been on the wish list or workarounds list for more than n months.

Obviously this list is not all inclusive, but I offer it as an example of why DIRECTV customers may be keenly interested in a TiVo solution to their problems.


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> Obviously they haven't been able to pull off eliminating any interest in a TiVo-powered product for one.


So what TiVo-powered product are you using instead? /steve


----------



## loudo

harsh said:


> Obviously they haven't been able to pull off eliminating any interest in a TiVo-powered product for one.


From what I remember from their press release about it, they were working *with* TIVO to create a unit, so why would they be trying to eliminate interest in a TIVO/DirecTV unit?

With the money TIVO is making from the DISH lawsuit, TIVO will have plenty of money for R&D of the new unit.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> I'd have to agree with Steve here. I actually have 4 different HR2x systems and personally I think they work great.


I have 5 friends that have HR2x DVRs. 3 think it works great, and 2 have lots of problems. All are average Joes who would never frequent a internet message board. Even the two that have the HR2x that think its terrible still have it because they're used to cable, and they're used to cable treatment.

Just thought I'd add my anecdotal information too.


----------



## Steve

loudo said:


> From what I remember from their press release about it, they were working *with* TIVO to create a unit, so why would they be trying to eliminate interest in a TIVO/DirecTV unit?
> 
> With the money TIVO is making from the DISH lawsuit, TIVO will have plenty of money for R&D of the new unit.


Actually, if you check out the terms of the deal, DirecTV is actually underwriting a portion of the R&D, which they'll get back in the form of reduced monthly payments to TiVo if certain subscription levels are reached.

This reinforces the notion that DirecTV sees an advantage to having another HD DVR product in it's arsenal, for customer acquisition or retention. /steve


----------



## RCY

Steve said:


> So what TiVo-powered product are you using instead? /steve


I know you didn't ask me, but a lot of us are still using SD Tivos. I don't really care about the interface, but in order to re-up for 2 years, I want a HD DVR that is at least as useful as my HTPC for OTA. Or that at least has key functions. (like DLB or mobile device support)


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> Where exactly has it been said that "TiVo software will not be offered until the new hardware is ready?"


From the 10k report.

According to the report, I take this statement to mean the previous HR10-250 unit or any other "new" Tivo hdw......

"During the fiscal year ended *January 31, 2009*, ........The loss of MSOs/Broadcaster subscriptions is a result of DIRECTV not currently deploying new TiVo boxes."

Two paragraphs later contains the quote I read as D* won't release the new Tivo unit until the new HD platform is launched...

"In this fiscal year ending *January 31, 2010*, ....... However, we expect continued losses in our installed base of MSOs/Broadcasters subscriptions as DIRECTV *will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD platform* described in the Significant Relationships section of Item 1."

Maybe I misunderstand that statement, but "New HD Platform" doesn't necessarily mean the "New HD Platform with Tivo", otherwise I think it would have said that.

To me, this is the platform they are talking about.....

"TiVo expects to develop a version of the TiVo service for *DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR*...."

Platform is the box, and the statement says it will be a "new HD platform".

I extrapolated from there to mean that any Tivo service will be on a new platform, but only when that platform is ready.

Just my take anyway.

Frank


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> I know you didn't ask me, but a lot of us are still using SD Tivos. [...]


Actually I was trying to good naturedly needle *harsh*, because I know he is a Dish user. It's one thing if we DirecTV users knock the product...  /steve


----------



## Steve

Flyrx7 said:


> Maybe I misunderstand that statement, but "New HD Platform" doesn't necessarily mean the "New HD Platform with Tivo", otherwise I think it would have said that.


That's exactly what it means. I had to read it twice myself, but the "new HD Platform with TiVo" is how they generally describe the new software product they are developing to run on DirecTV broadband-enabled hardware. It becomes clearer if you wade through this.

Additionally, here are excerpts from the 12/10 "10-Q". Note that in both cases they refer to "DirecTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform", and not a future product to be developed:

_"On September 3, 2008, the Company extended its current agreement with DIRECTV for the development, marketing, and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service. Under the terms of this non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with a goal, but not a contractual obligation, to launch in the second half of calendar year 2009. DIRECTV, upon deployment of high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service, is entitled to recoup, over time, a portion of certain development fees through a reduction in certain subscription fees. The new agreement also extends the mutual covenant not to sue with respect to each company's products and services throughout the term of the new agreement."_

_"*We face risks in connection with our amended development and services agreements with DIRECTV for the development and deployment of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service.*

We may encounter delays in development under our new agreement with DIRECTV. Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform with our goal, but not a contractual obligation, to launch in the second half of calendar year 2009. We face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product. If we are unable to successfully develop this new broadband-enabled HD DVR with TiVo service for deployment by DIRECTV, we would not be able to acquire new subscribers from DIRECTV under these new agreements and our business could be harmed."_

/steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> "In this fiscal year ending *January 31, 2010*, ....... However, we expect continued losses in our installed base of MSOs/Broadcasters subscriptions as DIRECTV *will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD platform* described in the Significant Relationships section of Item 1."





Steve said:


> That's exactly what it means. I had to read it twice myself, but the "new HD Platform with TiVo" is how they generally describe the new software product they are developing to run on DirecTV broadband-enabled hardware.


Steve's right here ..

Essentially what that statement is saying is that:

(1) DIRECTV is not currently selling any DIRECTV receiver with TiVo service .. This would include the old SD version as well as the old HD version (HR10-250).

(2) The "new HD platform" is the new TiVo service.

(3) The new TiVo is not yet available.


----------



## dennisj00

Just another opinion, but I really don't think the people affected by the June transition (the ones that weren't ready in Feb and probably won't be ready in June) won't be a lot of HD subscribers to anyone. They either don't watch enough TV to care or don't have enough money to convert.


----------



## mp11

RCY said:


> I know you didn't ask me, but a lot of us are still using SD Tivos. I don't really care about the interface, but in order to re-up for 2 years, I want a HD DVR that is at least as useful as my HTPC for OTA.
> 
> 
> 
> Well if I have the choice to re-up locked into another 2 year contract to get a watered down Tivo as opposed to *no contract *with a full blown TivoHD with all the bells and whistles as well as Netflix, YouTube etc., I choose the later. Cable companies(mine in particular) have a really improved thier picture quality in the last few years, as well as prices have dropped considerably... comparable to Directv actually. Is the pic quality as good as Directv? Probably not, but pretty close. Had this new DirecTivo come out when originally stated, I would have tried it. But I will not wait another year with this "underacheiving" HR2* series.
Click to expand...


----------



## Spanky_Partain

harsh said:


> Obviously they haven't been able to pull off eliminating any interest in a TiVo-powered product for one.
> 
> Some others (the apologists will attest that these are either in process, not desirable or they've never experienced problems with them):
> 
> 1. CIG
> 2. DLB
> 3. Fully functional MRV
> 4. Ability to scan for OTA channels
> 5. DIRECTV2Go
> 6. Fully functional media player
> 7. Anything else that has been on the wish list or workarounds list for more than n months.
> 
> Obviously this list is not all inclusive, but I offer it as an example of why DIRECTV customers may be keenly interested in a TiVo solution to their problems.


Are you saying Tivo offers all these things?


----------



## Steve

dennisj00 said:


> Just another opinion, but I really don't think the people affected by the June transition (the ones that weren't ready in Feb and probably won't be ready in June) won't be a lot of HD subscribers to anyone. [...]


You're probably right for the vast majority who haven't yet upgraded.

I do think the transition event itself may cause some small % to finally "pull the trigger", for whatever the reason. It may just be a reminder to some that they're not yet HD, and maybe they need to find out what all the fuss is about!  /steve


----------



## Flyrx7

Steve said:


> That's exactly what it means. I had to read it twice myself, but the "new HD Platform with TiVo" is how they generally describe the new software product they are developing to run on DirecTV broadband-enabled hardware.


I don't read it like that at all.

Nowhere yet have I seen it called "new HD Platform with TiVo". Do a cntrl-F search for "new HD Platform with TiVo" in the 10k report. You won't find it.

It's always
*"HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service"* or

*"DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform"*

Two completely seperate things.

Nowhere have I seen "platform" and "tivo" together describing such a "Tivo Platform". It's Tivo for D*'s platform, not a Tivo Platform.

Probably just semantics, but what else is there to talk about until 2010?

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Steve

Flyrx7 said:


> I don't read it like that at all.
> 
> Nowhere yet have I seen it called "new HD Platform with TiVo". It's always
> *"HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service"* or
> 
> *DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*
> 
> Two completely seperate things.
> 
> Nowhere have I seen "platform" and "tivo" together describing such a "Tivo Platform". It's Tivo for D*'s platform, not a Tivo Platform.
> 
> Probably just semantics, but what else is there to talk about until 2010?
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


You're right. We have to talk about something! :lol:

I know a lot of folks on here would love to see the TiVo come out on a more robust hardware platform than the HR21/22/23, so you might want to look at the "recitals" section of the amended DirecTV/TiVo agreement. Depending on how you interpret it, it may support your argument.

They refer to "Reno" and "Provo" receivers. Looks to me like "Reno" refers to already-released DirecTiVo products and "Provo" to what's coming. Note that they use these nicknames to describe the complete (h/w and s/w) product, not just the hardware.

They also talk about a "two-chip" receiver, which could be the HR20 (which, like the TiVo Series 3, uses a BCM7038/BCM7411 chipset, instead of the single BCM7401 chip used in the HR21/22/23). They also make it sound like whatever new "Provo" software they develop will also be an upgrade for the "Reno" boxes.

Very confusing. My eyes glaze over trying to read it.  /steve


----------



## Flyrx7

Steve said:


> They refer to "Reno" and "Provo" receivers. Looks to me like "Reno" refers to already-released DirecTiVo products and "Provo" to what's coming. Note that they use these nicknames to describe the complete (h/w and s/w) product, not just the hardware.
> 
> They also make it sound like whatever new "Provo" software they develop will also be an upgrade for the "Reno" boxes.
> 
> Very confusing. My eyes glaze over trying to read it.  /steve


Truly....It gives me a headache. Very descriptive yet vague at the same time.

I do like the idea of a potential upgade of the new Tivo service to my "reno" receiver via download. Will that mean mpeg4 on my HR10-250? Hmmm.


----------



## Steve

Flyrx7 said:


> [...]Will that mean mpeg4 on my HR10-250? Hmmm.


I doubt that.  Not enough horsepower or memory to decode MPEG-4 without a dedicated processor. /steve


----------



## Steve

Flyrx7 said:


> [...] I do like the idea of a potential upgade of the new Tivo service to my "reno" receiver via download. [...]


What is interesting about that declaration in the agreement is that TiVo must feel the Reno boxes have sufficient horsepower to run whatever new software they're coming out with for the Provo's.

Given the Reno (HR10-250) boxes are running 166 mhz CPU's with 64-128mb of memory, it looks like the existing HR2x platform (300 mhz, 256mb or more) has more than enough horsepower for what they're developing. /steve


----------



## jacmyoung

We know D* had talked about a new DVR to be available in 2010, described as an MRV DVR that will support client units. Otherwise D* has been totally silent on any other new hardware platform developement.

Based on what TiVo is saying, the delay of the new TiVo DVR was caused by D*, because D* would not make the new TiVo box available until D*'s own new HD platform is ready.

Reading between the lines, D* does not want to see the new TiVo box out unless their own new MRV DVR is ready. If this is true, the reason maybe D* does not want to have only one option for its subs and be forced to pay TiVo that "significantly higher fee."

So this new TiVo DVR's future is dependent on when D* will make their own new DVR available, only then both of them will be out. To me it becomes a matter of trying to guess usually how fast D* rolled out an all-new hardware as they said they would.

Of course all this only came out of TiVo's end, D* is still silent. But at least if TiVo is telling the whole truth, we can try to guess by finding out what is the progress on that new D* MRV DVR.


----------



## harsh

Spanky_Partain said:


> Are you saying Tivo offers all these things?


All items except perhaps the last. For item 6 (DIRECTV2Go) you would kindly substitute TiVo2Go.


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> So what TiVo-powered product are you using instead?


If you believe TiVo, the DishDVR 508.


----------



## erickufrin

Weak!

Tivo is losing big money every day this new product is not on the market! :nono2:

I was "waiting" for Tivo to come out with its new box before adding another HD box to my home. Well forget it.

By the time this hits the market the DTV branded boxes will be able to do everything tivo can do. No reason to spend more or wait forever.


----------



## jacmyoung

erickufrin said:


> Weak!
> 
> Tivo is losing big money every day this new product is not on the market! :nono2:...


TiVo isn't losing money rather making some profit, but that is because they are not adding any new subs so their cost of SAC is very low right now.

But TiVo is losing subs that is for sure, at an ever faster pace. I agree by this time next year, it might be too late, and D* apparently is in no hurry to help.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> TiVo isn't losing money rather making some profit, but that is because they are not adding any new subs so their cost of SAC is very low right now.
> 
> But TiVo is losing subs that is for sure, at an ever faster pace. I agree by this time next year, it might be too late, and D* apparently is in no hurry to help.


TiVo is losing "opportunity money" everyday. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Halo

The Directv HR2X receivers that I own have this really cool feature.

Press button..... nothing happens.
Press button again.... nothing happens.
Press button a third time... wait.... then watch all 3 button presses register (3 flashes).

Will the Tivo have this cool feature? I'm not sure I could enjoy TV without it.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> TiVo is losing "opportunity money" everyday.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The reason? How about D* is trying not to pay it

Even by TiVo's own account, the new D*TiVo could have been available soon, but D* would not let it happen until D*'s own new DVR platform DVRs are available to D*'s own subs.

Apparently there is not much TiVo can do. It does not strike me as D* has much obligation to roll out the new D*TiVo, what do you think?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> The reason? How about D* is trying not to pay it
> 
> Even by TiVo's own account, the new D*TiVo could have been available soon, but D* would not let it happen until D*'s own new DVR platform DVRs are available to D*'s own subs.
> 
> Apparently there is not much TiVo can do. It does not strike me as D* has much obligation to roll out the new D*TiVo, what do you think?


A couple of people have said this now.

Where exactly does it say we're waiting until DirecTv releases a new platform?

The way I read it (and already posted why) TiVo is working on software for an existing DirecTV platform.

Now I suspect this would be the HR23. It has the BCM7401 (uses the same firmware as all the other HR2x's) but is different from the other HR2x's.

We still don't know what other capabilities the HR23 has that isn't in the previous models (other then broadband tuners).

I think, if anything, the HR23 is the new platform.

I guess that would make those that believe it will be an existing receiver and those that believe it will be a new platform, both correct. :grin:

Mike


----------



## mp11

Halo said:


> The Directv HR2X receivers that I own have this really cool feature.
> 
> Press button..... nothing happens.
> Press button again.... nothing happens.
> Press button a third time... wait.... then watch all 3 button presses register (3 flashes).
> 
> Will the Tivo have this cool feature? I'm not sure I could enjoy TV without it.


That IS cool. Although my favorite HR21 feature that I absolutely love, is having to do a reset twice a week.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

mp11 said:


> That IS cool. Although my favorite HR21 feature that I absolutely love, is having to do a reset twice a week.


That is *very* unusual. You should never have to reset so there is obviously something wrong with your system. I have HR2x's and never have to reset them.

You should start a thread and see if we can't help you figure it out.

BTW, these post are way off topic and we need to steer back....

:backtotop

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> A couple of people have said this now.
> 
> Where exactly does it say we're waiting until DirecTv releases a new platform?
> 
> The way I read it (and already posted why) TiVo is working on software for an existing DirecTV platform.
> 
> Now I suspect this would be the HR23. It has the BCM7401 (uses the same firmware as all the other HR2x's) but is different from the other HR2x's.
> 
> We still don't know what other capabilities the HR23 has that isn't in the previous models (other then broadband tuners).
> 
> I think, if anything, the HR23 is the new platform.
> 
> I guess that would make those that believe it will be an existing receiver and those that believe it will be a new platform, both correct. :grin:
> 
> Mike


According to Doug, correct me if I am wrong, the HR23 is not the new platform. Besides, there is no reason to believe HR23 will not be out until 2010, that is just too far off, and yet TiVo said themselves the new D*TiVo will not be out until 2010, when the D* new platform is out.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> According to Doug, correct me if I am wrong, the HR23 is not the new platform. Besides, there is no reason to believe HR23 will not be out until 2010, that is just too far off, and yet TiVo said themselves the new D*TiVo will not be out until 2010, when the D* new platform is out.


The HR23-700 is out now. I believe Doug hasn't specified either way...but I could be wrong. :grin:

TiVo said, both in previous and current documents, that the delay would be, in part, due to working with multiple suppliers (other reasons too). IMO all the issues are related to current conditions with current hardware and not to some future system.



> We may encounter delays in development under our new agreement with DIRECTV . Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform to deliver the new HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service to DIRECTV for a launch to consumers as soon as possible in calendar year 2010. *We may face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product. If we are unable to successfully develop this new broadband-enabled HD DVR with TiVo service for deployment by DIRECTV, we would not be able to acquire new subscribers from DIRECTV under these new agreements and our business could be harmed.


Mike


----------



## Spanky_Partain

harsh said:


> All items except perhaps the last. For item 6 (DIRECTV2Go) you would kindly substitute TiVo2Go.


That is awesome. Do you have the TiVo2Go?


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> The HR23-700 is out now. I believe Doug hasn't specified either way...but I could be wrong. :grin:
> 
> TiVo said, both in previous and current documents, that the delay would be, in part, due to working with multiple suppliers (other reasons too). IMO all the issues are related to current conditions with current hardware and not to some future system.
> 
> Mike


If the HR23 is already out, do you think it is a new platform or not? I think not.

What does the term "DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform " mean? To me it means that new generation D* MRV DVR server D* had mentioned to be available in 2010.

And what does this mean: "We may face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product."

That means even the 2010 time frame is not ensured, there can be further delay or the thing may not even come out.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> If the HR23 is already out, do you think it is a new platform or not? I think not.
> 
> What does the term "DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform " mean? To me it means that new generation D* MRV DVR server D* had mentioned to be available in 2010.
> 
> And what does this mean: "We may face significant technological, third party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for *DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform*, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product."
> 
> That means even the 2010 time frame is not ensured, there can be further delay or the thing may not even come out.


Ok good point. 

One could argue that the whole HR2x series are broadband-enabled HD DVRs, the HR23 in particular.

They all have broadband network capabilities. The HR23 has wideband tuners.

IOW, I don't think that a "broadband-enabled HD DVR" is necessarily any different from the current HR2x line.

Could the HR23, with a larger hard drive, be a whole house HD/MRV server? I think so.

You tell me. What could "broadband-enabled HD DVR" mean that would indicate it's a new platform and couldn't be the current HR23?

At any rate, IMHO, if it is a new system it won't be a whole new generation but another step in the current line. It's one of the reasons I think it will be based on the HR23. Hey, it's all just a guess. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Draconis

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> So it's not dead


I highly doubted it would be. It's coming, it's only a matter of time.


----------



## bonscott87

I've said it before but most likely what will happen is that there is a new receiver in the works, an HR30 if you will. It will be built from the ground up with the ability to have either Tivo or DirecTV DVR+.

We already know that DirecTV is working on a new receiver and certainly a new server architecture for 2010 per recent conference calls. The current HR2x series is already getting long in the tooth and set to be replaced anyway. Why would Tivo (or DirecTV) want to put their software on hardware that is soon getting replaced? 

Maybe that's what they were going to do at first but doesn't make much sense at this point, get on the new platform so you have some future.

As for Tivo, I found more interesting that they are down to 1.7 million DirecTivo's in service. With many customers having multiple there may only be just over a million people left with a DirecTivo on their account. A year from now this may be down to half a million easy. Meanwhile there are nearly 9 million DirecTV customers with HD and/or DVRs with record low churn and over 50% uptake on these advanced products. Tivo certainly has a huge uphill battle to be sure to have a success with this new product.


----------



## Christopher Gould

Since we are talking about a new D* HD dvr. Whats the chance we will see D* doing a system like XStreamHD using Spaceway 2 as a spotbeamed delivery system. In the XstreamHD receiver you could have 2 hard drives 1 TB each. You could use one for the dvr the other for the satellite recieved movies.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bonscott87 said:


> I've said it before but most likely what will happen is that there is a new receiver in the works, an HR30 if you will. It will be built from the ground up with the ability to have either Tivo or DirecTV DVR+.
> 
> We already know that DirecTV is working on a new receiver and certainly a new server architecture for 2010 per recent conference calls. The current HR2x series is already getting long in the tooth and set to be replaced anyway. Why would Tivo (or DirecTV) want to put their software on hardware that is soon getting replaced?
> 
> Maybe that's what they were going to do at first but doesn't make much sense at this point, get on the new platform so you have some future.
> 
> As for Tivo, I found more interesting that they are down to 1.7 million DirecTivo's in service. With many customers having multiple there may only be just over a million people left with a DirecTivo on their account. A year from now this may be down to half a million easy. Meanwhile there are nearly 9 million DirecTV customers with HD and/or DVRs with record low churn and over 50% uptake on these advanced products. Tivo certainly has a huge uphill battle to be sure to have a success with this new product.


My only problem with this theory is that it originally was slated to release in the second half of 2009.

At the time the HR23 was still not released (first looks in the beginning of Nov '08).

I would believe that the HR23-700 will have it's -100/-200 counter-parts and they haven't been released yet.

Now I ask myself, would DirecTV want the first of the next generation flagship HD-DVRs to be a DirecTiVo followed by the DirecTV version.

IMO...

YES - Only if they are getting out of the DVR business. Further since the HR23 isn't even in the retail chain yet (I don't think) how would releasing a -100 or -200 model, followed by a new flagship HD-DVR, followed by a DirecTiVo version of the new model fit into a time line.

NO - If they want to have a single HD line with either the DirecTV or the DirecTiVo software.

One could argue that the fact that the HR23 seems to be stalled could be an indication that the HR2x is a dead line and that we'll see a next gen DVR later this year.

If that's the case why go through the trouble of field testing the HR23, releasing it, and installing it for new subs when there are plenty of HR21/HR22s available?

I think there is more to the HR23 then meets the eye but I have nothing to back that up. 

Mike


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Christopher Gould said:


> Since we are talking about a new D* HD dvr. Whats the chance we will see D* doing a system like XStreamHD using Spaceway 2 as a spotbeamed delivery system. In the XstreamHD receiver you could have 2 hard drives 1 TB each. You could use one for the dvr the other for the satellite recieved movies.


how about a full home dvr 4-5 tuners. WIFI and gig-e. no video out Can feed older hr2X and h2X systems and mini boxes at the tv's.


----------



## loudo

JoeTheDragon said:


> how about a full home dvr 4-5 tuners. WIFI and gig-e. no video out Can feed older hr2X and h2X systems and mini boxes at the tv's.


Don't think you will ever see WIFI in a unit, not that much demand for it. Just like why they removed the OTA tuners from the newer HR2Xs and went to the AM21, which made me an unhappy camper.


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> Don't think you will ever see WIFI in a unit, not that much demand for it.


That is something I disagree with. The last two HT devices I've purchased have builtin WIFI (PS3 and Apple TV). The trend in home networking is towards more wireless capability.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

loudo said:


> Don't think you will ever see WIFI in a unit, not that much demand for it. Just like why they removed the OTA tuners from the newer HR2Xs and went to the AM21, which made me an unhappy camper.





RaceTripper said:


> That is something I disagree with. The last two HT devices I've purchased have builtin WIFI (PS3 and Apple TV). The trend in home networking is towards more wireless capability.


I have to agree with RaceTripper here.

I know friends who aren't connected and can't get VOD because it's too hard to connect the cable and get it working.

WiFi will make it much eaiser for more people to get connected. That's a revenu stream for DirecTV that they would like to increase and a WiFi box could increase $.

Just a guess.

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> ...Could the HR23, with a larger hard drive, be a whole house HD/MRV server? I think so.
> 
> You tell me. What could "broadband-enabled HD DVR" mean that would indicate it's a new platform and couldn't be the current HR23?...


Because the current HR lines cannot serve more than one client H box at the same time in the current MRV arrangment, and because D* said in 2010 they will roll out a new generation of MRV DVRs that will be able to support multiple clients.


----------



## Brennok

I would gladly give up WiFi built in for more than 2 tuners. Then again I would happily consider building a HTPC if Directv offered dual tuner cards with no limit to how many you could run on a single PC with either Tivo software or Directv DVR software for those who prefer it over Tivo. 

All I know is I am tired of maintaining multiple Tivo boxes season pass managers. Then again I record an insane amount of TV.


----------



## loudo

RaceTripper said:


> That is something I disagree with. The last two HT devices I've purchased have builtin WIFI (PS3 and Apple TV). The trend in home networking is towards more wireless capability.


My reasoning for saying that is many of the newer built homes are being built with hard wired networks and many other people are retrofitting their current homes for hard wired networks, which are more secure and faster, than wireless. There may be instances where wireless is needed, but it will decrease as time goes on, and more and more homes are hard wired.


----------



## groove93

Wifi is a big selling point. We're beginning to see next-gen Blu Ray players, and Media Streaming Devices with Wifi Built-in. Networking yes, but add wifi, and you have an attention grabber. I'd say any device not having Wifi as a standard within the next two generations, is a waste of money. There's no excuse for not having it by that point.


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> My reasoning for saying that is many of the newer built homes are being built with hard wired networks and many other people are retrofitting their current homes for hard wired networks, which are more secure and faster, than wireless. Their may be instances where wireless is needed, but it will decrease as time goes on, and more and more homes are hard wired.


What's the evidence for your claim. I'm skeptical that it's true.

In my neighborhood I've seen the number of WiFi access points blossom. I see more and more wireless networks pop up all the time. So I observe the opposite of your claim holding true. That, and the fact that more and more devices are including wireless support.

Bottom line is I would not be surprised to see the next generation of D* hardware include 802.11n support. Even now, the current HR2x models have wizard-based support for adding and configuring the Linksys WGA600N wireless adapter (which I use).


----------



## loudo

RaceTripper said:


> What's the evidence for your claim. I'm skeptical that it's true.


I never said it was true, my original statement was my own opinion that I didn't think we would see it as more and more newer homes are being constructed with hard cat 5 or 6 wiring and many older ones are being retrofitted with home networks, and as more and more have hard wired system the demand for WIFI goes down.

Given the choice I would rather have my devices hard wired for speed and security. I used to have a lot of wireless and now the only thing I have left is my laptop, but that WIFI only gets used when I am traveling. At home it gets plugged into the hard wired network and the wireless portion of my home network is disabled.

But like others have said, the new TIVO unit may come out with wireless, making many happy.


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> I never said it was true, my original statement was my own opinion that I didn't think we would see it as more and more newer homes are being constructed with hard cat 5 or 6 wiring and many older ones are being retrofitted with home networks, and as more and more have hard wired system the demand for WIFI goes down.
> 
> Given the choice I would rather have my devices hard wired for speed and security. I used to have a lot of wireless and now the only thing I have left is my laptop, but that WIFI only gets used when I am traveling. At home it gets plugged into the hard wired network and the wireless portion of my home network is disabled.
> 
> But like others have said, the new TIVO unit may come out with wireless, making many happy.


I was not asking about evidence pointing to whether future units will have wireless. That I realize is your opinion. I am questioning your claim about retrofitting homes with ethernet. I personally know of no one that has retrofitted a home for CAT5/6 in recent years, but I know of plenty of people who have mostly abandoned wired ethernet in the home for wireless.

I will bet a dollar to a donut that the number of people abandoning existing network wiring in the home for the convenience of wireless exceeds the number of people retrofitting homes to add wired networking.


----------



## Brennok

RaceTripper said:


> What's the evidence for your claim. I'm skeptical that it's true.


I am seeing the same thing. My friend who just built his house had everything hard wired and he is in no way a techie. One of the girls at work who is buying one of those cookie cutter houses just found out that every room comes wired. Another friend of mine just finished wiring his old house and we are about to start on mine. After we wire mine, I think we are going to do my parents houses.

Obviously this isn't the case everywhere but I definitely think it is much more common to have at least one ethernet jack in every room of a new home.

Also just because you see more and more wireless networks doesn't necessarily mean the homes are less wired. For example Fios only gives out wireless routers now for installs whether you need wired or wireless.

There just aren't as many wired routers out there for home use as there are wireless and the ones that are aren't significantly cheaper than buying a wireless router. Just going to Newegg shows 10 wired routers as opposed to 100 wireless. Of those 10 only 5 are consumer grade costing less than $100 while 80 of the 100 wireless cost less than $100.


----------



## RaceTripper

Brennok said:


> I am seeing the same thing. My friend who just built his house had everything hard wired and he is in no way a techie.....


Sure, I see the sense of wiring a home if you're building it new. I would do that too. It's pretty standard and doesn't add much cost. But rewiring an existing home to add it is another thing.

I think a more meaningful statistic to look at is who really uses all that wiring in favor of wireless in those new home, versus the other way. Laptops and other mobile devices are far more common now -- and I think laptop sales outnumber desktop sales these days. People with laptops in the home are more inclined to use wireless. If I move into a new home, I would certainly use some of the ethernet (for printers I have and the XBox 360), but will still be mostly wireless.


----------



## loudo

RaceTripper said:


> Sure, I see the sense of wiring a home if you're building it new. I would do that too. It's pretty standard and doesn't add much cost. But rewiring an existing home to add it is another thing.


It may be common to the area you live in, as it was stated above by Brennok. I know I retrofitted my house and have helped several others to do the same.

We better get back on topic before we get yelled at. :backtotop


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> We better get back on topic before we get yelled at. :backtotop


Agree (and agree to disagree  ).


----------



## bonscott87

MicroBeta said:


> My only problem with this theory is that it originally was slated to release in the second half of 2009.


Well, I think that was simply Tivo trying to save face and pump up the stock more then anything.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> According to Doug, correct me if I am wrong, the HR23 is not the new platform. Besides, there is no reason to believe HR23 will not be out until 2010, that is just too far off, and yet TiVo said themselves the new D*TiVo will not be out until 2010, when the D* new platform is out.


Uh .. better find that quote because I don't believe I have ever made a comment either way ..


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Because the current HR lines cannot serve more than one client H box at the same time in the current MRV arrangment, and because D* said in 2010 they will roll out a new generation of MRV DVRs that will be able to support multiple clients.


MRV is not currently available as a product from DIRECTV, so any characterization of it's capabilities is moot.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> MRV is not currently available as a product from DIRECTV, so any characterization of it's capabilities is moot.


The most you can say is, not allowed, but not moot.

If just because a tested function is not available to the general public yet, makes it moot, 1/2 of this forum should be moot Therefore any discussions about the new D*TiVo's capabilities should be moot as well.


----------



## Jhon69

bonscott87 said:


> Well, I think that was simply Tivo trying to save face and pump up the stock more then anything.


Any hurry to bring out the new HD DirecTivo(if any) probably ended when Tivo received that big check from Dish.


----------



## mp11

Jhon69 said:


> Any hurry to bring out the new HD DirecTivo(if any) probably ended when Tivo received that big check from Dish.


Directv applied the brakes concerning this deal. As its been stated several times, why would they want a superior DVR to come out before their own new DVR?  For the same reason they wont allow Tivo to furnish many of the features their standalone Tivo brings. Its been 9 months or so since the news of these collaboration, and I still cant believe Directv did it. I think the HR2* series has had alot more problems than they ever let on. Customer disatifaction is a *BIG* motivator.


----------



## loudo

mp11 said:


> Directv applied the brakes concerning this deal. As its been stated several times, why would they want a superior DVR to come out before their own new DVR?


 Have you seen what would make it superior? I haven't seen anything about any features it will have.



mp11 said:


> I think the HR2* series has had alot more problems than they ever let on. Customer disatifaction is a *BIG* motivator.


I can't see where the HR2X series receivers have had any worse problems than any other satellite or Cable DVR. I know my neighbors who have cable DVRs are always complaining about the problems with them. I know when I read the DISH threads I see problems listed there also. Yes, some people have had problems, as when you look at the millions of them out there, there are bound to be a few with problems.

Knock on wood, but my 2 HR20's haven't missed a beat.


----------



## hahler2

Ok I'm a little confused with this announcement. Does this mean that in 2010 there will be a software update that will convert all HD DVR's to Tivo software? If so will this be mandatory or optional?


----------



## Doug Brott

mp11 said:


> Directv applied the brakes concerning this deal. As its been stated several times, why would they want a superior DVR to come out before their own new DVR?


Because you said so? If you look back in the history of this thread .. I (along with others) predicted this would be the case just after the initial release came out. It's just what TiVo has done and apparently continues to do .. go back into the history of TiVo and these will be the results you will find.


----------



## jacmyoung

mp11 said:


> ... why would they want a superior DVR to come out before their own new DVR? ...


I would ask this question, why would they pay TiVo a "significantly higher fee" when they can do a great job to increase their own sub count using their own DVRs?


----------



## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> I would ask this question, why would they pay TiVo a "significantly higher fee" when they can do a great job to increase their own sub count using their own DVRs?


Because the customers will pay it not them. If you have the option of a DVR service for $6 a mo but want Tivo then you're choosing to pay the premium. It will be an option any customer has not one that Directv makes.

As for the delay everyone knew it would happen if you look at the track records. If you followed TiVo the last 6 months they've been talking about their new java based software to run on any "cable" box rather then specific hardware for each carrier. It would obviously make sense for them to incorporate this into the DirecTV model. Chances are they know how it runs on current equipment and figure the next generation equipment will work better. Of course this is all speculation they could actually make a hardware specific device for DirecTV if that's what the contract says. TiVo however is trying to get out of the hardware business and just goto software design support model.


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## TBlazer07

They will be willing to pay TiVo a "significanly higher fee" because you can be sure they will charge those who want the TiVo software a "significantly higher fee." They can easily charge a "per-DVR" fee for each TiVo if they so choose on top of the single DVR monthly fee. I'm sure they have "a plan" to re-coup that "significantly higher fee." 


jacmyoung said:


> I would ask this question, why would they pay TiVo a "significantly higher fee" when they can do a great job to increase their own sub count using their own DVRs?


----------



## bbanks69

I have been wondering, why is it that D* does not have DLB, is it because their programmers can not program it, or does Tivo have a patent on this. I have not seen a thread to this matter, but I do not believe that D* can not Program it if they had a choice.

but I can say that DLB is a determining factor for me.

Bill


----------



## Tom Robertson

bbanks69 said:


> I have been wondering, why is it that D* does not have DLB, is it because their programmers can not program it, or does Tivo have a patent on this. I have not seen a thread to this matter, but I do not believe that D* can not Program it if they had a choice.
> 
> but I can say that DLB is a determining factor for me.
> 
> Bill


Actually DLB is a neither. TiVo does not have a patent (and DIRECTV has licensed their patents anyway) and DIRECTV can program DLB. They have chosen to work on something better instead. (Check the DLB threads, lots of discussion about both these concepts.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Shades228 said:


> Because the customers will pay it not them. If you have the option of a DVR service for $6 a mo but want Tivo then you're choosing to pay the premium. It will be an option any customer has not one that Directv makes.


But D* may not want to pay TiVo a significantly higher fee then pass it on to its customers. At one point many TiVo folks insisted the new D*TiVo would not cost much more than the D*'s own DVRs.



> As for the delay everyone knew it would happen if you look at the track records. If you followed TiVo the last 6 months they've been talking about their new java based software to run on any "cable" box rather then specific hardware for each carrier. It would obviously make sense for them to incorporate this into the DirecTV model. Chances are they know how it runs on current equipment and figure the next generation equipment will work better. Of course this is all speculation they could actually make a hardware specific device for DirecTV if that's what the contract says. TiVo however is trying to get out of the hardware business and just goto software design support model.


You can speculate all you want, all I know is TiVo said so themselves that the reason for the delay was they would have to wait for D* to make that new platform ready in 2010.


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## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> You can speculate all you want, all I know is TiVo said so themselves that the reason for the delay was they would have to wait for D* to make that new platform ready in 2010.


Please cite your source as I simply do not believe this comment.


----------



## adavidw

Steve said:


> I know a lot of folks on here would love to see the TiVo come out on a more robust hardware platform than the HR21/22/23, so you might want to look at the "recitals" section of the amended DirecTV/TiVo agreement. Depending on how you interpret it, it may support your argument.
> 
> They refer to "Reno" and "Provo" receivers. Looks to me like "Reno" refers to already-released DirecTiVo products and "Provo" to what's coming. Note that they use these nicknames to describe the complete (h/w and s/w) product, not just the hardware.
> 
> They also talk about a "two-chip" receiver, which could be the HR20 (which, like the TiVo Series 3, uses a BCM7038/BCM7411 chipset, instead of the single BCM7401 chip used in the HR21/22/23). They also make it sound like whatever new "Provo" software they develop will also be an upgrade for the "Reno" boxes.


Reno was the codename for the 1st DirecTV combo box. Provo was the codename for the Series 2 DirecTV box. The two-chip receiver was a lower-cost version of the Series2 that DirecTV had the option to get. I don't think that was ever done (unless that's what became the R10). This is spelled out in Article 1. These references have been in the agreement since the beginning and haven't changed since it was restated.

The new box is referred to as the "DirecTV TE Receiver" in the agreement, although it doesn't mention what TE means. "TiVo Enhanced"? "Terribly Exciting"?


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## Steve

adavidw said:


> [...]These references have been in the agreement since the beginning and haven't changed since it was restated.
> 
> The new box is referred to as the "DirecTV TE Receiver" in the agreement, although it doesn't mention what TE means. "TiVo Enhanced"? "Terribly Exciting"?


Thanks for pointing that out. Without having the old agreement in hand, it's hard to tell which box is which! /steve


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## wingrider01

jacmyoung said:


> But D* may not want to pay TiVo a significantly higher fee then pass it on to its customers. At one point many TiVo folks insisted the new D*TiVo would not cost much more than the D*'s own DVRs.
> 
> You can speculate all you want, all I know is TiVo said so themselves that the reason for the delay was they would have to wait for D* to make that new platform ready in 2010.


When this comes, you can bet that any additional cost required for the new box will be passed on to the customer. To start with the cost per unit to Tivo needs to be passed on to the end user, this in itself is an additional cost that will not be incurred on those that retain the HR2X series with Directv software, only those end users that insist on the Tivo based software will cause the charge to be added.

Those of us that prefer the Directv box should not have to support the ones that are insisting on a Tivo software based box, any and all charges that are incurred should be passed on to those that want to utilize the features (plus the required profit margin factor).


----------



## Mike Bertelson

mp11 said:


> Directv applied the brakes concerning this deal. As its been stated several times, why would they want a superior DVR to come out before their own new DVR?  For the same reason they wont allow Tivo to furnish many of the features their standalone Tivo brings.


 Can you cite a source for DirecTV applying the brakes?

In the _seven_ months since the agreement I certainly can't find any indication that DirecTV is stalling TiVo.

IMO the delays are exactly what TiVo said they are. TiVo is trying to get software to run a platform they weren't in on designing and that have slight differences due to different manufacturers.

Further, I think there are specific feature sets and maybe even a timetable in which to release them...but that's just a guess. 

At any rate, I don't see anything unusual in the time line.

Do you know of something about how long this is taking that is out of the ordinary for TiVo or DirecTV?



> Its been 9 months or so since the news of these collaboration, and I still cant believe Directv did it. *I think the HR2* series has had alot more problems than they ever let on. *Customer disatifaction is a *BIG* motivator.


It's pretty much a guarantee that all the problems there are with HR2x have been seen here so I don't think there's anything DirecTV is hiding.

If you're talking about numbers of people with problems, well I have 4 friends with HR2x's so 5 including myself.

Out of those five only one of has had a problem. His HR20-700 never worked right. Now he has an HR22 and no more problems (they also did an alignment and replaced some connectors, IMHO that's what fixed the problem not the replacement receiver but I digress). My point is I don't think the majority of people have these kinds of problems.

As far as the DirecTiVo getting to market, I don't think customer dissatisfaction has anything to do with it...but I've be wrong before. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Steve

MicroBeta said:


> Can you cite a source for DirecTV applying the brakes?
> 
> In the _seven_ months since the agreement I certainly can't find any indication that DirecTV is stalling TiVo. [...]


Agree. I don't think DirecTV is pleased about the delay at all. One of the reasons they made this deal (and are funding part or all of the development) has to be for the D* acquisition/retention folks, who want the product to reach the small % of current or yet to be acquired customers for whom TiVo is the answer, no matter what the question.

It's the same principal as an application developer writing a Mac version of their software to reach the 9% of customers who won't use a PC. Or like the Yankees acquiring another high-priced free agent they may not need. If that player puts fannies in the seats, it's ultimately worth the money to them.

Every day that goes by with no new HD DirecTiVo is a day D* risks losing another SD DirecTiVo customer to cable or FIOS, or misses picking-up a customer from their competitors because they can't offer them a product they want.

To think that DirecTV now feels threatened by a deal they didn't have to make in the first place and have decided to sabotage it as a result is absurd, IMHO. /steve


----------



## mp11

loudo said:


> Have you seen what would make it superior? I haven't seen anything about any features it will have.
> 
> 
> 
> GUI, ease of operation, all the features mentioned in a previous post that Tivo available. I'll add one more that wasnt listed...an actual slow motion feature that inexplicably Directv chose to leave out. (great in NFL season)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't see where the HR2X series receivers have had any worse problems than any other satellite or Cable DVR.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Directv itself has admitted there are "above average issues" with the HR series. No, I dont have a link to that article of about a year ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know my neighbors who have cable DVRs are always complaining about the problems with them. I know when I read the DISH threads I see problems listed there also. Yes, some people have had problems, as when you look at the millions of them out there, there are bound to be a few with problems.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Knock on wood, but my 2 HR20's haven't missed a beat.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying the Tivo is perfect. They also have issues. But far more stable the the HR series in general. There are alot of good HR2*s and you happened upon one. My personal experience with them has been bad. 2 hard drive failures and a third, tech support really didnt know what the problem was. 3 replacements in 8 months. :nono2: My current hr21 has to be reset on average, twice a week.


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## hdtvfan0001

Well....I see we have some heading modification to now reflect some of the sentiments here as to a date....


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> It's the same principal as an application developer writing a Mac version of their software to reach the 9% of customers who won't use a PC. Or like the Yankees acquiring another high-priced free agent they may not need. If that player puts fannies in the seats, it's ultimately worth the money to them.


 Or the web designer who has to design a site for Firefox/Safari/Opera as well. They should be doing that anyway though. Now, nothing can help the Yankees more than winning. More high priced free agents won't do a thing if they can't beat Boston and Tampa Bay. 


Steve said:


> Every day that goes by with no new HD DirecTiVo is a day D* risks losing another SD DirecTiVo customer to cable or FIOS, or misses picking-up a customer from their competitors because they can't offer them a product they want.


Aside from the loud minority, how can someone quantify those who would not move from TiVo? As it's been said somewhere else in this thread, most people think a DVR is a TiVo. I think the risk is there if they insist on the $199 fee for the HR2x. If I was required to pay that, I would have given a more serious look to cable. But in the end D* kept me by making the up-front cost of a HR2x a non-factor.


----------



## Steve

Tallgntlmn said:


> [...] Aside from the loud minority, how can someone quantify those who would not move from TiVo? [...]


You can't easily, but we know there is a segment of those folks out there. Most cableco's today provide their own DVR's and even so, TiVo continues to post $40-$50 million in subscription revenues each quarter and over $41 million in hardware revenue 3 fiscal years in a row, so there are folks that believe the TiVo service is worth the premium. /steve


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## mp11

Steve said:


> You can't easily, but we know there is a segment of those folks out there. Most cableco's today provide their own DVR's and even so, TiVo continues to post $40-$50 million in subscription revenues each quarter and over $41 million in hardware revenue 3 fiscal years in a row, so there are folks that believe the TiVo service is worth the premium. /steve


Sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way here comparing Tivo to HR2*s, but take it from someone who has both. The HR21 doesnt even come close to the Tivo. But thats just my opinion.


----------



## wingrider01

mp11 said:


> I'm not saying the Tivo is perfect. They also have issues. But far more stable the the HR series in general. There are alot of good HR2*s and you happened upon one. My personal experience with them has been bad. 2 hard drive failures and a third, tech support really didnt know what the problem was. 3 replacements in 8 months. :nono2: My current hr21 has to be reset on average, twice a week.


Again, it is inherint to the user, have had tons more problems with the still connected TIVO units then I have had with the HR2X series units. The number of reboots required on the HR2X boxes I have installed and 1/3 the number required for the HD/SD TIVO units that I still have hooked up(and I have only 2 of them compared to 4 HR2X's). Using the same HR2X boxes that where installed coming on 2 year ago.


----------



## Doug Brott

mp11 said:


> Sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way here comparing Tivo to HR2*s, but take it from someone who has both. The HR21 doesnt even come close to the Tivo. But thats just my opinion.


I've had both .. I've had both at the same time. Heck, I've still got one now that I rarely use. Each time I do I find it difficult to navigate now. I'm much more comfortable with the HR2x. We're all entitled to our opinion .. Besides, DIRECTV will have both platforms, so we should both be happy, right?


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Steve said:


> You can't easily, but we know there is a segment of those folks out there. Most cableco's today provide their own DVR's and even so, TiVo continues to post $40-$50 million in subscription revenues each quarter and over $41 million in hardware revenue 3 fiscal years in a row, so there are folks that believe the TiVo service is worth the premium. /steve


One of my friends is one of them. At first she said "that's stupid, I can't understand why you'd want such a thing" in regard to the TiVo. She got a Series 3 and loves it. She got it after seeing my D-TiVo in action on shows like 24 and American Idol. She is the type that the cableco hates. She subscribes to basic cable and uses a TiVo. There are probably a lot like her. No desire for digital cable and still want a DVR. 


mp11 said:


> take it from someone who has both. The HR21 doesnt even come close to the Tivo. But thats just my opinion.


I wholeheartedly agree. I haven't had my HR22 for a week yet and the slowness of the guide is driving me up the wall. When I push a button, I want to see the result, not wait. The fact that I have to record something to have DLB doesn't annoy me as much as I thought it would but it still does.


----------



## loudo

mp11 said:


> Sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way here comparing Tivo to HR2*s, but take it from someone who has both. The HR21 doesnt even come close to the Tivo. But thats just my opinion.


I have had both also, but if the new unit has the same features as the old HR10-250, I will definitely keep my HR20's. I personally hated the guide, and the thumbs up/down was a pain. But, of course the HR10-250 is old technology and I look for improvements when the new unit comes out.

At this time, I just can't see anyone saying they would switch to the TIVO unit, without even knowing what features are planned for it, or the additional costs. I know when it comes out I will evaluate it before I draw any conclusion. Unit and additional monthly costs will figure into my evaluation, as well as features.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I've had both .. I've had both at the same time. Heck, I've still got one now that I rarely use. Each time I do I find it difficult to navigate now. I'm much more comfortable with the HR2x. We're all entitled to our opinion .. Besides, DIRECTV will have both platforms, so we should both be happy, right?


One would think so....even those who want to pay more for the Tivobox platform.


----------



## mp11

Doug Brott said:


> I've had both .. I've had both at the same time. Heck, I've still got one now that I rarely use. Each time I do I find it difficult to navigate now. I'm much more comfortable with the HR2x. We're all entitled to our opinion .. Besides, DIRECTV will have both platforms, so we should both be happy, right?


Although I wasnt really talking about a DirecTivo, I was refering to the new standalone TivoHD...2 different animals.  And yes...we all should be happy. Some *VERY* happy.


----------



## Tom_S

Tallgntlmn said:


> I haven't had my HR22 for a week yet and the slowness of the guide is driving me up the wall. When I push a button, I want to see the result, not wait. The fact that I have to record something to have DLB doesn't annoy me as much as I thought it would but it still does.


Yeah the HR22 is slow. I often call it TiVo-Slow due to the how slow TiVo always was. Now the HR20-700 I have is real quick. From bringing up the guide, to browsing the list, to setting recordings. Not sure why the HR22 is so slow. But I still would not go back to TiVo. Especially for more money, it just does not give ME any added value.


----------



## DarinC

loudo said:


> I personally hated the guide, and the thumbs up/down was a pain.


There were two styles of guides you could choose from: Tivo, and a grid style that is very similar to what the HR2x uses now. And the thumbs was an optional feature you didn't have to use (personally I liked suggestions, but many don't). But regardless of your preference, how could having options be considered a negative?


----------



## Jhon69

adavidw said:


> Reno was the codename for the 1st DirecTV combo box. Provo was the codename for the Series 2 DirecTV box. The two-chip receiver was a lower-cost version of the Series2 that DirecTV had the option to get. I don't think that was ever done (unless that's what became the R10). This is spelled out in Article 1. These references have been in the agreement since the beginning and haven't changed since it was restated.
> 
> The new box is referred to as the "DirecTV TE Receiver" in the agreement, although it doesn't mention what TE means. "TiVo Enhanced"? "Terribly Exciting"?


Think it stands for"Tivo Echostar" that would be ironic.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

adavidw said:


> The new box is referred to as the "DirecTV TE Receiver" in the agreement, although it doesn't mention what TE means. "TiVo Enhanced"?


I suspect its that one...


----------



## RCY

Steve said:


> To think that DirecTV now feels threatened by a deal they didn't have to make in the first place and have decided to sabotage it as a result is absurd, IMHO. /steve


Not absurd, if D*'s whole purpose was to buy off a TIVO lawsuit that precedent shows TIVO can win. (TIVO v. Dish) Is it likely? Maybe not, but it is far from absurd.


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> Not absurd, if D*'s whole purpose was to buy off a TIVO lawsuit that precedent shows TIVO can win. (TIVO v. Dish) Is it likely? Maybe not, but it is far from absurd.


Apples and oranges, IMHO. The new box and the lawsuit are two different concepts that aren't tied to each other.

DirecTV acquired Replay last year, which already had a mutual non-litigation agreement with TiVo. So either the agreement holds, or both DirecTV and TiVo are free to sue each other. In either case, I'm pretty sure TiVo would not want to open that can of worms. /steve


----------



## RCY

Steve said:


> Apples and oranges, IMHO. The new box and the lawsuit are two different concepts that aren't tied to each other.
> 
> DirecTV acquired Replay last year, which already had a mutual non-litigation agreement with TiVo.


IMO, its far from certain that specific contractual obligations between Replay and D* gives D* global protection from all future litigation with Tivo.



Steve said:


> So either the agreement holds, or both DirecTV and TiVo are free to sue each other. In either case, I'm pretty sure TiVo would not want to open that can of worms. /steve


Is there anything in the agreement that specifies when D* has to provide the hardware platform to Tivo? Or the board support package? I haven't heard of any.


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> IMO, its far from certain that specific contractual obligations between Replay and D* gives D* global protection from all future litigation with Tivo.


Yes. And that's why I said the agreement either holds or it doesn't, in which case they are free to sue each other.



> Is there anything in the agreement that specifies when D* has to provide the hardware platform to Tivo? Or the board support package? I haven't heard of any. Pretty hard to litigate.


I was responding to your point about the patents, not the delivery of a new box.

If TiVo decided to sue DirecTV over patents, and DirecTV decided to countersue that TiVo was violating the Replay patents, I see that as a very expensive no-win for TiVo, based on past Replay/TiVo history. And it could jeopardize their claims over Echostar and others they may sue in the future, if any of their own patents are found to be invalid. /steve


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> Is there anything in the agreement that specifies when D* has to provide the hardware platform to Tivo? Or the board support package? I haven't heard of any.


Taking this question on face value, I see no requirement in the agreement for DirecTV to deliver a "new" hardware platform to TiVo. The way I see it, there's a difference between newly-developed hardware, and existing hardware that may simply be new to TiVo, which I personally believe is the current HR2x platform, given the TiVoHD product is running on basically the same box.

I personally don't think DirecTV is going to "refresh" the current h/w platform simply to run the current HR2x application. It's going to take some new functionality, much like the VIP 922 promises to Dish users, to justify a new hardware design, IMHO. In D*'s case, it will probably be the whole home DVR solution. Just my .02. /steve


----------



## RCY

Steve said:


> ...
> 
> If TiVo decided to sue DirecTV over patents, and DirecTV decided to countersue that TiVo was violating the Replay patents, I see that as a very expensive no-win for TiVo, based on past Replay/TiVo history. And it could jeopardize their claims over Echostar and others they may sue in the future, if any of their own patents are found to be invalid. /steve


The only legal precedent I'm aware of here is TIVO's victory against Dish. I would expect if D* had a strong case that Replay patents were violated that they would have rushed in to claim their piece of the pie from Dish as well.

I just don't think it's clear that D* gets a free pass because of Replay patents. And I think that's definetly part of the reason they cut this agreement with TIVO. And I'm sure you disagree.


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> The only legal precedent I'm aware of here is TIVO's victory against Dish.[...]


Sonic Blue (Replay) and TiVo sued each other over various patents in 2001, but ultimately decided to drop the cases in return for mutual future immunity.



RCY said:


> And I'm sure you disagree.


Well we agree about that! :lol: /steve


----------



## RCY

Steve said:


> Sonic Blue (Replay) and TiVo sued each other over various patents in 2001, but ultimately decided to drop the cases in return for mutual future immunity.


And why didn't Replay (D*) pursue litigation against Dish to protect their patent rights? Particularly since TIVO won?


----------



## Doug Brott

RCY said:


> And why didn't Replay (D*) pursue litigation against Dish to protect their patent rights? Particularly since TIVO won?


You never know what will happen in a litigation landscape. DIRECTV probably could sue over certain Patents, but being right doesn't necessarily mean it's beneficial to pursue that route.

Besides, I don't think the TiVo/Echostar litigation has been completed yet.

Either way, TiVo and DIRECTV had since agreed to continued non-litigation arrangements. These aren't tied to anything specific to DIRECTV's holding of the Replay Patents. Remember, DIRECTV picked up those Patents for $36 million. The intent may have been solely as a leverage against TiVo (I don't know). In which case, it's the cost of doing business and DIRECTV has moved on knowing that they are fully within their legal rights to continue.

The fact that DIRECTV and TiVo have negotiated what each believe to be an equitable agreement is a good thing.


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> And why didn't Replay (D*) pursue litigation against Dish to protect their patent rights? Particularly since TIVO won?


I'm not sure why. They may have been out of business by then. I also remember them being embroiled in another big lawsuit with the broadcast industry, over their "commercial skip" technology. Could be they were distracted by that before they effectively went under, when they were sold (at least once) to a company outside the US that tried to keep the product alive as a PC app, IIRC. /steve


----------



## bonscott87

RCY said:


> I just don't think it's clear that D* gets a free pass because of Replay patents. And I think that's definetly part of the reason they cut this agreement with TIVO. And I'm sure you disagree.


Well, DirecTV gets a "free pass" because their contract with Tivo includes a no sue clause. And that agreement runs until 2018....when Tivo's patents expire. Imagine that. 

That is the real reason for the whole agreement. A new HD DirecTivo is simply a side thing that both can make money on. It is a win-win all around for DirecTV even if this new box fails. It's a big lose to Tivo if it fails. DirecTV has nothing to lose really.

And once those patents expire DirecTV can tell Tivo to pound sand forever and Tivo won't be able to do anything about it. Assuming Tivo is still around 9 years from now that is. :lol:


----------



## bonscott87

Ads during pausing: http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/06/tivo-update-brings-pause-menu-ads-to-series3-and-tivo-hd-owners/

:eek2: :nono2:


----------



## RCY

bonscott87 said:


> Well, DirecTV gets a "free pass" because their contract with Tivo includes a no sue clause. And that agreement runs until 2018....when Tivo's patents expire. Imagine that.
> 
> That is the real reason for the whole agreement. A new HD DirecTivo is simply a side thing that both can make money on. It is a win-win all around for DirecTV even if this new box fails. It's a big lose to Tivo if it fails. DirecTV has nothing to lose really.
> 
> And once those patents expire DirecTV can tell Tivo to pound sand forever and Tivo won't be able to do anything about it. Assuming Tivo is still around 9 years from now that is. :lol:


Exactly.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> You never know what will happen in a litigation landscape. DIRECTV probably could sue over certain Patents, but being right doesn't necessarily mean it's beneficial to pursue that route.


I agree with you there. I never saw DirecTV's acquisition of the Replay patents as a strategy to monetize them. I simply viewed them as a shield against a potential TiVo lawsuit after the 2010 deal ran out. Apparently the SonicBlue patents have merit. They were strong enough to get TiVo to back-off their 2001 lawsuit. /steve


----------



## Brennok

hdtvfan0001 said:


> One would think so....even those who want to pay more for the Tivobox platform.


As long as we, Tivo fans, don't get screwed again by missing features and DTV doesn't try to royally screw the people who want Tivo with outrageous costs. Most scenarios I see, the 6 households which I can think of off the top of my head who are currently waiting go with the Tivo box. The real question will it be with or without Directv.

Most of the people I know will be willing to pay for the box assuming they own it unless it is a small upgrade fee. Most will be willing to pay a little extra as far as a monthly fee as long as it is cheaper than the average Tivo subscription fee. Once you get into Tivo sub fees and costs similar to retail Tivo boxes it becomes cheaper to go with Fios which all of us have access to. Some of the people won't mind some of the missing features but others won't do that especially since it is believed Tivo will be extra on DTV. Again at that point Fios becomes a more attractive option. I can only think of one person who in the end will stick with DTV and that is due to Sunday Ticket. Then again they don't have HD and wouldn't care about the missing features of Tivo.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Brennok said:


> As long as we, Tivo fans, don't get screwed again by missing features and DTV doesn't try to royally screw the people who want Tivo with outrageous costs. Most scenarios I see, the 6 households which I can think of off the top of my head who are currently waiting go with the Tivo box. The real question will it be with or without Directv.
> 
> Most of the people I know will be willing to pay for the box assuming they own it unless it is a small upgrade fee.


...and I can testify I know of at least 14 households with DirecTV and HD DVRs, none of which care for, nor want Tivo, period. I suspect neither of our experiences represent the overall population.

The new Tivobox will have a moderate monthly "surcharge" of some sort to ultimately pay the Tivo service fee, and likely, Tivo and DirecTV will somehow work out subsidizing a reasonable cost for the unit itself, making it affordable to those who want it.

For those who like Tivo, I suspect they will pay the nominal monthly fee and be pleased. For those who could care less and/or don't want Tivo...we'll live happily ever after without it. Everyone will "win". How about that!


----------



## RD in Fla

What I don't understand is why a consumer can't like both the HR DVRs and the DirecTiVo platform? I have both and I am a fan of both even though one of my HR20-700's continues to get 771 messages. Once the TiVo box is available I will probably lease/buy one or more and be happy with both platforms. Its all about what one is used to IMO, however, from my experiences the WAF is higher for the TiVo.


----------



## Brennok

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and I can testify I know of at least 14 households with DirecTV and HD DVRs, none of which care for, nor want Tivo, period. I suspect neither of our experiences represent the overall population.


Oh I agree completely. I was just trying to point out why some users may end up not being happy with the Tivo who originally wanted it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

RD in Fla said:


> What I don't understand is why a consumer can't like both the HR DVRs and the DirecTiVo platform? I have both and I am a fan of both even though one of my HR20-700's continues to get 771 messages. Once the TiVo box is available I will probably lease/buy one or more and be happy with both platforms. Its all about what one is used to IMO, however, from my experiences the WAF is higher for the TiVo.


You most certainly can be agnostic about the two choices and be welcomed here. :welcome_s


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Brennok said:


> Oh I agree completely. I was just trying to point out why some users may end up not being happy with the Tivo who originally wanted it.


That's a good point. We really won't know the final details on the final version until shortly before its release...so most of the discussion and information to date is speculation.

If they get it right with its first release, there will likely be alot of happy Tivo fans out there.


----------



## mp11

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If they get it right with its first release, there will likely be alot of happy Tivo fans out there.


I agree. Enable the features most wanted. MRV, *2GO, and DLB. Hopefully all of these will make the cut. But dont hold your breath.


----------



## bbanks69

Doug Brott said:


> Please cite your source as I simply do not believe this comment.





hdtvfan0001 said:
 

> ...and I can testify I know of at least 14 households with DirecTV and HD DVRs, none of which care for, nor want Tivo, period. I suspect neither of our experiences represent the overall population.
> 
> The new Tivobox will have a moderate monthly "surcharge" of some sort to ultimately pay the Tivo service fee, and likely, Tivo and DirecTV will somehow work out subsidizing a reasonable cost for the unit itself, making it affordable to those who want it.
> 
> For those who like Tivo, I suspect they will pay the nominal monthly fee and be pleased. For those who could care less and/or don't want Tivo...we'll live happily ever after without it. Everyone will "win". How about that!


Everyone has their own choices, mines I want Tivo because of DLB, but if D* comes on board, I won't need to pay more for the Tivo unit. So for me, the first one with DLB is the system for me.


----------



## bbanks69

Tom Robertson said:


> You most certainly can be agnostic about the two choices and be welcomed here. :welcome_s


Thanks for taking me to school Tom, I just learned a new word, and since I like to know everything, I had to go look it up.


----------



## finaldiet

An IT friend of mine has been having a LOT of problems with his HR21 and called retention yesterday. The person finally agreed to send a new unit. Friend said he needed OTA and asked for an HR20. Retention said he would send him a new HR20-700 or new TIVO DTV unit. I told him they don't have a new Tivo unit yet, but in future. He swears that is what retention told him. I told him to call me if he gets a Tivo unit, which I doubt!


----------



## Tallgntlmn

bbanks69 said:


> So for me, the first one with DLB is the system for me.


Same here. That is the one feature I miss from my old D-TiVo. Of course if the new TiVo is exponentially faster than the HR22 I have, that will be a factor too.

And before someone goes there: I have no faith in the "something better than DLB" because it has never been detailed and nothing that I can see that has been speculated is "better" than DLB.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

mp11 said:


> I agree. Enable the features most wanted. *MRV, *2GO, and DLB*. Hopefully all of these will make the cut. But dont hold your breath.


Without these features, I couldn't see paying extra. The rest is just interface.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> Without these features, I couldn't see paying extra. The rest is just interface.


True.....

...assuming, or course, that those features would be unique to the new Tivo unit...


----------



## Doug Brott

finaldiet said:


> An IT friend of mine has been having a LOT of problems with his HR21 and called retention yesterday. The person finally agreed to send a new unit. Friend said he needed OTA and asked for an HR20. Retention said he would send him a new HR20-700 or new TIVO DTV unit. I told him they don't have a new Tivo unit yet, but in future. He swears that is what retention told him. I told him to call me if he gets a Tivo unit, which I doubt!


Whether he was told this or not, I do not know. However, TiVo has already stated that the receiver will not be available until 2010.


----------



## mp11

finaldiet said:


> Retention said he would send him a *new HR20-700 *or *new TIVO DTV *unit.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind retention is just that. To retain customers. To keep them happy, and yes in some cases to tell them what they want to hear. Actually he misinformed your friend twice. 1- Directv stopped shipping out HR20s months ago(even as replacements), 2-we all know the story on the new Directivo.
Click to expand...


----------



## finaldiet

Yes. That is what I told him. Not till later in year or 1st quarter 2010.


----------



## Richierich

mp11 said:


> finaldiet said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind retention is just that. To retain customers. To keep them happy, and yes in some cases to tell them what they want to hear. Actually he misinformed your friend twice. 1- Directv stopped shipping out HR20s months ago(even as replacements), 2-we all know the story on the new Directivo.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you are WRONG about Directv shipping out HR20s as I got 2 HR20-100 units 2 weeks ago and specifically stated that I did not want an HR20 Unit but got 2 units even though I told them I didn't want an HR20 as a Replacement DVR. So they are still shipping out the HR20 units.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sandy

Tallgntlmn said:


> Same here. That is the one feature I miss from my old D-TiVo. Of course if the new TiVo is exponentially faster than the HR22 I have, that will be a factor too.
> 
> And before someone goes there: I have no faith in the "something better than DLB" because it has never been detailed and nothing that I can see that has been speculated is "better" than DLB.


Add me to this list. I will go with the platform that has DLB.


----------



## loudo

richierich said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you are WRONG about Directv shipping out HR20s as I got 2 HR20-100 units 2 weeks ago and specifically stated that I did not want an HR20 Unit but got 2 units even though I told them I didn't want an HR20 as a Replacement DVR. So they are still shipping out the HR20 units.
> 
> 
> 
> That is good, if you want OTA, without a separate piece of hardware.
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

richierich said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you are WRONG about Directv shipping out HR20s as I got 2 HR20-100 units 2 weeks ago and specifically stated that I did not want an HR20 Unit but got 2 units even though I told them I didn't want an HR20 as a Replacement DVR. So they are still shipping out the HR20 units.
> 
> 
> 
> That I find amazing considering they're on the HR23 now. I know many customers that have begged for the HR20(including myself) because of the OTA tuner and each time was told by Directv they were no longer available. And that was back in the Fall of '08. You in turn tell them you dont want one and you get one. :nono2: Maybe people turning in their older HR20 units and you were unlucky enough to get them. :lol:
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

loudo said:


> richierich said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is good, if you want OTA, without a separate piece of hardware.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. But I guess he doesnt need the OTA feature.
Click to expand...


----------



## celticpride

will the directv HD tivo have what the current cable hdtivo has? netflix,amazon downloads ,jaman, and you tube? that would be awesome! if not i might just switch to fios or else get one of the new panasonic plasma hdtvs that has some of these features.


----------



## mp11

celticpride said:


> will the directv HD tivo have what the current cable hdtivo has? netflix,amazon downloads ,jaman, and you tube? that would be awesome! if not i might just switch to fios or else get one of the new panasonic plasma hdtvs that has some of these features.


No way! Thats why I made the switch. BTW dont forget about Blockbuster also, coming soon!


----------



## Richierich

Not Only That but I called them up and COMPLAINED because I thought they were a Piece Of Crap according to some posts I have read and I believe RICH454 didn't like it but that may have been related to External eSATA Problems but I was hoping for an HR22 or HR23 but I told them I had OTA Antenna so maybe that is why I got the HR20-100s. I didn't even realize that they had OTA!!!

I got LUCKY and didn't even know it!!!


----------



## loudo

celticpride said:


> will the directv HD tivo have what the current cable hdtivo has? netflix,amazon downloads ,jaman, and you tube? that would be awesome! if not i might just switch to fios or else get one of the new panasonic plasma hdtvs that has some of these features.


No features or announcements, about the physical unit, have been announced yet. We are all awaiting to see what the new TIVO unit will bring to the table, for features.


----------



## loudo

mp11 said:


> No way! Thats why I made the switch. BTW dont forget about Blockbuster also, coming soon!


After the articles in today's papers They may not be doing anything soon. 
http://www.nbcaugusta.com/news/georgia/42562307.html


----------



## Terry K

One other issue that comes to mind is the MPEG4 conversion (aka the 72.5 markets) Has it occurred to anyone this may well be a MPEG4 only box? 

As I recall, those are to be done by next year and that may be something holding D* back from wanting to deploy a new hardware. 

Why would D* want to support a satellite they're getting rid of?


----------



## DarinC

I'm not sure I follow you. They would still need MPEG2 capability for national SD channels, as well as SD LIL channels in most other markets, and OTA (assuming it has OTA capability).


----------



## Steve

Terry K said:


> One other issue that comes to mind is the MPEG4 conversion (aka the 72.5 markets) Has it occurred to anyone this may well be a MPEG4 only box?


Assuming it will be based on a Broadcom 74xx chip, like the TiVoHD and the HR2x, those chips decode both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Yup .. MPEG2 will not be going away any time soon. There's really no reason to move the SD channels to MPEG4 (on the whole) because there are still plenty of SD only receivers out there. All of those receivers would have to be updated if the MPEG2 was completely shut off.


----------



## Jhon69

richierich said:


> mp11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you are WRONG about Directv shipping out HR20s as I got 2 HR20-100 units 2 weeks ago and specifically stated that I did not want an HR20 Unit but got 2 units even though I told them I didn't want an HR20 as a Replacement DVR. So they are still shipping out the HR20 units.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you need to call DirecTV and tell them"I don't want a new HD DirecTivo"!.
Click to expand...


----------



## bbanks69

celticpride said:


> will the directv HD tivo have what the current cable hdtivo has? netflix,amazon downloads ,jaman, and you tube? that would be awesome! if not i might just switch to fios or else get one of the new panasonic plasma hdtvs that has some of these features.


everyone seems to have options except me, I can not get Fios in St. louis, Mo. I get Dish, Direct, or Charter


----------



## bbanks69

Jhon69 said:


> richierich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now you need to call DirecTV and tell them"I don't want a new HD DirecTivo"!.
> 
> 
> 
> now that is a good one Jhon, opps rich, I need the same call in my name. :hurah:
Click to expand...


----------



## mp11

bbanks69 said:


> everyone seems to have options except me, I can not get Fios in St. louis, Mo. I get Dish, Direct, or Charter


Sounds like 3 options to me.


----------



## bbanks69

mp11 said:


> Sounds like 3 options to me.


you know what, you are right, I guess I just want all options, I want it all, *Even DLB*


----------



## wingrider01

bbanks69 said:


> you know what, you are right, I guess I just want all options, I want it all, *Even DLB*


4th option now in a lot of new places, AT&T just turned up Uverse in a lot of St. Louis city locations in the last few weeks. Have the phone and uncapped 18 Meg internet connection being installed on the 15th. Gonna tell charter to take a walk on their capped internet connection. Best thing about it is I am paying the exact same amout for the 18meg that I am paying for the 10 meg with their "no cable TV surcharge" for internet connection


----------



## DarinC

bbanks69 said:


> I guess I just want all options, I want it all, *Even DLB*


The irony is, you are with the only major provider who's current DVRs _don't_ have DLB.


----------



## Steve

DarinC said:


> The irony is, you are with the only major provider who's current DVRs _don't_ have DLB.


Well, technically, there are still 1.6-1.7 million DirecTiVo subs, but your point is well taken!  /steve


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DarinC said:


> The irony is, you are with the only major provider who's current DVRs _don't_ have DLB.


Perhaps the demand for this is not as great as advocates imagine...as if it were, we'd likely see it. Perhaps it will come with the new HD Tivobox, and that issue can finally be laid to rest.


----------



## DarinC

Steve said:


> Well, technically, there are still 1.6-1.7 million DirecTiVo subs, but your point is well taken!  /steve


Yes, I'm one of them. I had to be careful to include that "current" disclaimer. 



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps the demand for this is not as great as advocates imagine...as if it were, we'd likely see it. Perhaps it will come with the new HD Tivobox, and that issue can finally be laid to rest.


I'm not sure we can determine demand by the fact that people are doing without it. I would expect many people who are doing without are like me... they got a DirecTV designed box because they had to, not because they didn't care about DLB. In my case, it was because it was the only way to continue to get HD. I didn't switch until they started making the calls about MPEG2 HD going away. It wasn't until after I got the HR21s that I found out they didn't have DLB. It's kind of funny now looking back to when I first got them, and searching everywhere to find out how to switch tuners. :bang :sure:

Others may be locked into a term, may be waiting for "something better", maybe waiting for the new TiVo, or may simply not want to switch to another provider just because of DLB - perhaps DLB is important to them, but other factors outweigh it.


----------



## mp11

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps the demand for this is not as great as advocates imagine...as if it were, we'd likely see it. Perhaps it will come with the new HD Tivobox, and that issue can finally be laid to rest.


Well DLB is certainly not something everyone would use. Just us freaks that like watching 2 football games at once. :lol: I suppose its really tailor made for live events.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mp11 said:


> Well DLB is certainly not something everyone would use. Just us freaks that like watching 2 football games at once. :lol: I suppose its really tailor made for live events.


I suspect you are correct, in terms of the potential dmand for the capability.

Despite my experience doing alot of what you do and never missing this feature, it is clear there is a market for it.


----------



## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps the demand for this is not as great as advocates imagine...as if it were, we'd likely see it. Perhaps it will come with the new HD Tivobox, and that issue can finally be laid to rest.





mp11 said:


> Well DLB is certainly not something everyone would use. Just us freaks that like watching 2 football games at once. :lol: I suppose its really tailor made for live events.


Looks like up to 1750 users here might consider switching, if they had an opportunity to.  At $5/month per household, that's $100k in annual revenue for TiVo right there.

And imagine, those 1750 represent a fractional percentage of 18,000,000 D* subscribers world-wide. Extrapolate their desires out to the entire user base, and we're talking potentially big #'s, assuming an extra $60/year add'l was not too much for an average subscriber to bear. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Folks .. please do not turn this thread into a discussion about DLB. Thank You

:backtotop


----------



## mccoady

I'm one of the sd DTivo users who can't wait for the new HDTivo to arrive I will be one of the first ones to sign up as long as the monthly rate isn't significantly higher. I'm not willing to give up DLB's, List guide, no Season Pass limit and Tivo's Search functions so as long as I get these anything they want to include from Tivo's HD's will be all gravy to me.

Yes I'm missing out on Sat HD which kills me but I still watch OTA local HD channels so it's a compromise for the time being.

Just a note, my son who is blind also has a sd DTivo (plus a Tivo HD) and if it wasn't for Tivo's "Sound Effects" would have a much harder time using a dvr to record and watch/listen to programs. The sound effects which annoy some but can be turned off give him confirmation of commands.


----------



## sigma1914

mccoady said:


> Just a note, my son who is blind also has a sd DTivo (plus a Tivo HD) and if it wasn't for Tivo's "Sound Effects" would have a much harder time using a dvr to record and watch/listen to programs. The sound effects which annoy some but can be turned off give him confirmation of commands.


I have to ask...Is he totally blind? How can he know what he is recording/setting up to record?


----------



## loudo

mccoady said:


> I'm one of the sd DTivo users who can't wait for the new HDTivo to arrive I will be one of the first ones to sign up as long as the monthly rate isn't significantly higher. I'm not willing to give up DLB's, List guide, no Season Pass limit and Tivo's Search functions so as long as I get these anything they want to include from Tivo's HD's will be all gravy to me.


How do you know that these features will even exist in the new DirecTV TIVO unit? They haven't announced anything about what features the unit will have.


----------



## mp11

loudo said:


> How do you know that these features will even exist in the new DirecTV TIVO unit? They haven't announced anything about what features the unit will have.


Good point. Although most people seem to think that this new unit wont have near the features the standalone Tivo has. Especially the broadband features. However maybe Directv will let Tivo trickle in DLB, as that is what so many seem to want. But I would have to assume there will be something else. OTA tuners with scan feature would be good.


----------



## bbanks69

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect you are correct, in terms of the potential dmand for the capability.
> 
> Despite my experience doing alot of what you do and never missing this feature, it is clear there is a market for it.


DLB is not a big deal until you have it, and then loose it, I just thought that it was a feature on all dvr's with 2 tuners, and then my tivo went out and i was sent a r15 with a larger hard drive. I called D* to find out how to change tuners, and found out that I could not, and I also found out that I could not get another Tivo, even with a smaller HD


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bbanks69 said:


> DLB is not a big deal until you have it, and then loose it, I just thought that it was a feature on all dvr's with 2 tuners, and then my tivo went out and i was sent a r15 with a larger hard drive. I called D* to find out how to change tuners, and found out that I could not, and I also found out that I could not get another Tivo, even with a smaller HD


Makes perfect sense.


----------



## loudo

mp11 said:


> OTA tuners with scan feature would be good.


That alone would be a seller to me. I am hanging onto my HR20s until they die, but OTA tuners could get me thinking in the line of the TIVO receiver. It will be interesting to see what features they do come out with, but I just can't see anyone saying they will jump into one at this time, not knowing what features it will have or how much it will cost.


----------



## loudo

bbanks69 said:


> DLB is not a big deal until you have it, and then loose it,


Had it in the HR10-250, it was a nice feature, but I have learned to live without it.


----------



## Drew2k

Doug Brott said:


> Folks .. please do not turn this thread into a discussion about DLB. Thank You
> 
> :backtotop


Sounds good ...


----------



## mccoady

sigma1914 said:


> I have to ask...Is he totally blind? How can he know what he is recording/setting up to record?


Yeah pretty much he can see lights and shadows but that's about it if he sets right in front of his 50" tv (the bigger the better for him) he can make out movement. I set up his Season Passes for him but he has memorized a huge amount of sat channel numbers so he can go there and record a show when it's starting if needed. He cycles through the play list to find a show but having folders has helped him out alot.



loudo said:


> How do you know that these features will even exist in the new DirecTV TIVO unit? They haven't announced anything about what features the unit will have.


I don't know but those that I mentioned are pretty much standard basic features on the sd DTivo's nothing fancy, (and we haven't gotten new features in I don't know how long) if it didn't include them I wouldn't even call it a Tivo. I almost forgot I would also miss the Deleted folder hopefully it will be included, again just a basic sd feature.


----------



## FlBillsfan

Doug Brott said:


> Folks .. please do not turn this thread into a discussion about DLB. Thank You
> 
> :backtotop


Why not? DLB is a FEATURE on TIVO that Direct TV does not offer on their units. I think it is very germane to the discussion. I for one REALLY MISS DLB.


----------



## FlBillsfan

mp11 said:


> Well DLB is certainly not something everyone would use. Just us freaks that like watching 2 football games at once. :lol: I suppose its really tailor made for live events.


While DLB is GREAT for Football, Baseball etc, it is also great for channel surfing. It is nice to be able to surf while a commercial is on & go back to the program you were watching without missing anything.


----------



## wingrider01

bbanks69 said:


> DLB is not a big deal until you have it, and then loose it, I just thought that it was a feature on all dvr's with 2 tuners, and then my tivo went out and i was sent a r15 with a larger hard drive. I called D* to find out how to change tuners, and found out that I could not, and I also found out that I could not get another Tivo, even with a smaller HD


Had it - Multiple HR10's and Panasonic's Directivo untis
Lost it - hr2X
Did not care when I had it
Did not care when I lost it
Still do not care if it is there or not there


----------



## harsh

loudo said:


> How do you know that these features will even exist in the new DirecTV TIVO unit? They haven't announced anything about what features the unit will have.


The press release refers to the latest TiVo features and services.


Joint press release said:


> The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone.


----------



## Doug Brott

Doug Brott said:


> Folks .. please do not turn this thread into a discussion about DLB. Thank You
> 
> :backtotop





FlBillsfan said:


> Why not? DLB is a FEATURE on TIVO that Direct TV does not offer on their units. I think it is very germane to the discussion. I for one REALLY MISS DLB.


Because there is already a thread for discussing DLB .. here:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=118382

Sure, bring it up as a feature you want, but if the discussion is about DLB more so than the TiVo .. please take it over there. DLB is not the main part of the discussion in this thread and I will not allow this thread to turn into another DLB thread. Sorry.


----------



## JLucPicard

Doug Brott said:


> Because there is already a thread for discussing DLB .. here:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=118382
> 
> Sure, bring it up as a feature you want, but if the discussion is about DLB more so than the TiVo .. please take it over there. DLB is not the main part of the discussion in this thread and I will not allow this thread to turn into another DLB thread. Sorry.


I'm with you there, Doug! :righton:


----------



## Jhon69

bbanks69 said:


> DLB is not a big deal until you have it, and then loose it, I just thought that it was a feature on all dvr's with 2 tuners, and then my tivo went out and i was sent a r15 with a larger hard drive. I called D* to find out how to change tuners, and found out that I could not, and I also found out that I could not get another Tivo, even with a smaller HD


Don't know if you know but you can get a used DirecTivo off of Ebay(always check receiver ID # with DirecTV before purchase).I got a used HR10-250,had to pay $20. for a new access card.DirecTV still supports the older DirecTivos.


----------



## loudo

Jhon69 said:


> Don't know if you know but you can get a used DirecTivo off of Ebay(always check receiver ID # with DirecTV before purchase).I got a used HR10-250,had to pay $20. for a new access card.DirecTV still supports the older DirecTivos.


The only problem is, it is an HD unit, but only gets a handful of HD MPG-2 channels. Got two in my closet, that can be used for boat anchors.


----------



## Jhon69

loudo said:


> The only problem is, it is an HD unit, but only gets a handful of HD MPG-2 channels. Got two in my closet, that can be used for boat anchors.


For those wanting the MPEG4 HD channels yes,but for those that want SD programming(or an OTA tuner) the older HD DirecTivos will work good for years to come.


----------



## whitepelican

loudo said:


> The only problem is, it is an HD unit, but only gets a handful of HD MPG-2 channels. Got two in my closet, that can be used for boat anchors.


I'll take those boat anchors off your hands for you.


----------



## TBlazer07

I saw how cheap they were going for on eBay so I recently took my 2 and sold them on eBay for parts rather then units. It took a while but eventially all the parts sold.

I sold the power supplies, HDMI cards, hard-drives & remotes and got more then I ever could selling them as a unit plus the parts were much easier to pack and ship. Ended up netting average around $100 for each HR10 and was left with the chassis and motherboard which I probably could have sold as well but just junked them. 



loudo said:


> The only problem is, it is an HD unit, but only gets a handful of HD MPG-2 channels. Got two in my closet, that can be used for boat anchors.


----------



## Richierich

loudo said:


> The only problem is, it is an HD unit, but only gets a handful of HD MPG-2 channels. Got two in my closet, that can be used for boat anchors.


If you have an OTA Antenna connected you can view Fox, CBS, ABC, NBC, PBS, etc. here in Atlanta all in Glorious HD for FREE!!! I have 2 HR10-250s hooked up and they still are working fine. I also have ESPN.


----------



## loudo

richierich said:


> If you have an OTA Antenna connected you can view Fox, CBS, ABC, NBC, PBS, etc. here in Atlanta all in Glorious HD for FREE!!! I have 2 HR10-250s hooked up and they still are working fine. I also have ESPN.


I know, I have been using my 2 old Hughes E8 DirecTV receivers for OTA tuners. Just after I posted the above message one of them died and I had to use one of the HR20-250s, for OTA on one of my older HDTV sets, without a tuner. Down to one now. Went from a boat anchor to an OTA receiver.


----------



## mitchelljd

does anyone know anything about the new Directv HD Tivo boxes?? 

when i was on the phone yesterday with Directv, the rep sounded like there was an announcement and release coming shortly, maybe even within the month regarding new HD Tivo for Directv. She even said she watched a short promo video on it.


----------



## bonscott87

mitchelljd said:


> does anyone know anything about the new Directv HD Tivo boxes??
> 
> when i was on the phone yesterday with Directv, the rep sounded like there was an announcement and release coming shortly, maybe even within the month regarding new HD Tivo for Directv. She even said she watched a short promo video on it.


As has been stated a few times there is nothing known about it's specs other then the press release last summer.

Tivo officially said last week it's delayed until sometime in 2010. The CSR you talked with is clueless like usual.


----------



## Flyrx7

mitchelljd said:


> does anyone know anything about the new Directv HD Tivo boxes??
> 
> when i was on the phone yesterday with Directv, the rep sounded like there was an announcement and release coming shortly, maybe even within the month regarding new HD Tivo for Directv. She even said she watched a short promo video on it.


See what they are willing to put in writing. Bet you won't get anything. 
Apparently it's an acceptable practice for d* CSR's to lie. I even think it's a standard practice. It has been documented here widely that they lie, or are given misinformation from their superiors to pass on to the public. A very shameful practice if you ask me. 
If they aren't out and out lying it's still shameful to constantly pass on bad information like they do.


----------



## johnp37

Flyrx7 said:


> See what they are willing to put in writing. Bet you won't get anything.
> Apparently it's an acceptable practice for d* CSR's to lie. I even think it's a standard practice. It has been documented here widely that they lie, or are given misinformation from their superiors to pass on to the public. A very shameful practice if you ask me.
> If they aren't out and out lying it's still shameful to constantly pass on bad information like they do.


 I absolutely agree. My own personal experience had to do with the availability of HR23s for retail. I got a phone call from a rep about 6 weeks ago in response to an e-mail I sent to D* about that. She insisted that HR23s were in beta testing and nobody was getting any, not even new customers. That call came several days after my original e-mail. You mean to tell me in that span of time correct, accurate information could not be obtained? How's that for misinformation. It may not be in black and white in the CSR training manual but the word comes down from management: this is what you tell subscribers. More times than not I have been put on hold bcause a CSR couldn't give me an answer. Yet we are told here by the voices of reason that this shameful practice is the exception rather than the rule.


----------



## bonscott87

I'll say this, and it's from my experience working 2 years on a help desk way back when and still do 2nd/3rd level support to this day. 

None of what I say is an excuse for poor customer service, but it is what it is at pretty much every company.

The front line CSRs are poorly trained, overworked and underpaid. They are tossed into the fire, burnt out in less then 6 months (if that) spit out and recycled in with new blood. Your first 3 months on the job you don't know anything. You're just trying to figure it out. There is rarely any training, if ever. Memo's come out but you certainly don't have time to read any of them because the phone never stops ringing and there are 30 calls in queue at a 20 minute hold time. If you stop taking calls to read memo's and email then you're fired yet if you don't know all the updates from the memo's you're in trouble. Yep, typical catch 22 on a help desk. About the time you might start getting the hang of it you either quit cause you're totally burned out and you'll make just as much with less stress at WalMart or you get promoted off the front line cause you made it that far.

Thus vary rarely are you going to find a front line CSR with a whole lot of deep knowledge because they are rarely there long enough to learn it.

Misinformation and poor training? You betcha.
Out and out lying on purpose? Doubtful. Unless you're 30 minutes late for lunch and you're willing to say anything to get off the phone, you might say whatever the user wants to hear. It happens. 

Again, no excuse to be sure. But let's not start accusing people of lying all the time just to lie. Doesn't make any sense once you know what really goes on behind the scenes. But it could happen for whatever reason, buy lying just to lie for malice, I doubt that.


----------



## Flyrx7

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the CSR's are likely just the victims of circumstance regarding the misinformation. I believe it's a corporate mandate to feed them the bad info to relay to the public as the higher ups deem fit. Which is to say they use it as a tool to maintain subs at any costs, whether that means stretching the truth or not. 
The CSR's are just saying what they're told to say, for the most part, but someone is giving them the talking points. That's what gets me. 

Now, if the Tivo comes out this month I'll reconsider my opinion.


----------



## Que

mitchelljd said:


> does anyone know anything about the new Directv HD Tivo boxes??
> 
> when i was on the phone yesterday with Directv, the rep sounded like there was an announcement and release coming shortly, maybe even within the month regarding new HD Tivo for Directv. She even said she watched a short promo video on it.


I'm surprise, if there is a video that it's not leaked yet.


----------



## JLucPicard

It would take one ballsy DirecTV employee to leak an internal video, unless they felt releasing that video was more important to them than their job.

Not only that, but I would imagine those training videos aren't just put in the hands of all of the employees, but presented in a group meeting setting.

I highly doubt that such a video (of the new HD TiVo product) even exists at this point, as I don't think the unit even exists in a relatively finished form yet.


----------



## Jhon69

Que said:


> I'm surprise, if there is a video that it's not leaked yet.


The same thing could be said about DirecTV's new DVR+'s HDDVR products.


----------



## ATARI

JLucPicard said:


> It would take one ballsy DirecTV employee to leak an internal video, unless they felt releasing that video was more important to them than their job.
> 
> Not only that, but I would imagine those training videos aren't just put in the hands of all of the employees, but presented in a group meeting setting.
> 
> I highly doubt that such a video (of the new HD TiVo product) even exists at this point, as I don't think the unit even exists in a relatively finished form yet.


Probably just a PowerPoint presentation at this point with some mocked-up TiVo screenshots.


----------



## countryboy24

why do they need to waist money on new HR's when they have R22's that can do the same with the proper software


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect the consequences of any NDA in employee or business partner contracts will control any potential "leakage".


----------



## Jhon69

countryboy24 said:


> why do they need to waist money on new HR's when they have R22's that can do the same with the proper software


Because it makes more cents to avoid possible litigation(which is a waste of money) and do something more constructive with it like resigning with Tivo and keep supporting the older DirecTivos and to come out with a new HD DirecTivo for those that would like a choice between HDDVRs.The new HD DirecTivo will have Tivo supported software and a higher DVR fee because it will be a Premium service HDDVR.While the DirecTV HDDVR+ will remain as the cheaper DVR fee option.

The R22s even if authorized for HD only has a 320GB HDD same as the HR21.
The HR22/23 has a 500 GB HDD,also the HR23 has wideband tuners so it does not need BBCs connected.:welcome_s


----------



## Mike Bertelson

countryboy24 said:


> why do they need to waist money on new HR's when they have R22's that can do the same with the proper software


I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

The R22 can do the same as what? The R22 uses the same firmware version as the HR2x's.

IMHO, this partnership between DirecTV and TiVo is a benefit to both companies. Hardware and features for the whole industry will continue to advance and DirecTV needs to stay competitive.

I think this will work but that's just me. Only time will tell. :grin:

BTW, Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

Mike


----------



## bonscott87

Of course the *real* reason for the deal is to extend the "no sue" clause until 2018...the year Tivo loses exclusivity on it's patents. A new receiver, if they get it out, is just icing on the cake. Funny how that works out.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> Of course the *real* reason for the deal is to extend the "no sue" clause until 2018...the year Tivo loses exclusivity on it's patents. A new receiver, if they get it out, is just icing on the cake. Funny how that works out.


Sure as heck didn't hurt.

DirecTV probably could have successfully used the threat of counter-suing over the REPLAY patents as insurance against future TiVo suits, and I suspect that's why they originally made the REPLAY deal.

I guess after some consideration of the matter, tho, Mr. Malone's folks saw the new HD DVR as a no-lose proposition, and by extending the existing deal they put any talk of patent issues to bed as well, effectively killing two birds with one stone.

Not that I'm worried, but is there a way TiVo can modify the patents at all to "extend" their life? I know nothing about the legal issues surrounding this stuff, but I thought I read somewhere that in some cases, the original patent holders are able to modify them in such a way that it extends the life. /steve


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bonscott87 said:


> Of course the *real* reason for the deal is to extend the "no sue" clause until 2018...the year Tivo loses exclusivity on it's patents. A new receiver, if they get it out, is just icing on the cake. Funny how that works out.


I agree.

It's another reason I think the deal will go through. If nobody delivers and the box is never released the agreement goes out the window taking the "no sue" clause with it. 

I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## Shades228

MicroBeta said:


> I agree.
> 
> It's another reason I think the deal will go through. If nobody delivers and the box is never released the agreement goes out the window taking the "no sue" clause with it.
> 
> I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


I don't see how this is correct. Having the option of doing so and choosing not to wouldn't break an agreement. If TiVo just decided it wasn't worth it DirecTV has no control over it and would just say you can do it whenever you want to. I really don't think DirecTV cares either way. If/when it happens they gain another selling point and offer a service that some people will want. If it doesn't happen they're obviously happy with how their equipment plan is going along.


----------



## Shades228

Steve said:


> Sure as heck didn't hurt.
> 
> DirecTV probably could have successfully used the threat of counter-suing over the REPLAY patents as insurance against future TiVo suits, and I suspect that's why they originally made the REPLAY deal.
> 
> I guess after some consideration of the matter, tho, Mr. Malone's folks saw the new HD DVR as a no-lose proposition, and by extending the existing deal they put any talk of patent issues to bed as well, effectively killing two birds with one stone.
> 
> Not that I'm worried, but is there a way TiVo can modify the patents at all to "extend" their life? I know nothing about the legal issues surrounding this stuff, but I thought I read somewhere that in some cases, the original patent holders are able to modify them in such a way that it extends the life. /steve


I'm not a patent lawyer nor am I any kind of a lawyer but I understand that for a patent to be done again a significant change must be made and a new patent is created. I did a paper on it years ago so things could have obviously changed since then.


----------



## harsh

Shades228 said:


> I'm not a patent lawyer nor am I any kind of a lawyer but I understand that for a patent to be done again a significant change must be made and a new patent is created.


Extending a patent is possible in very rare cases but creating a new patent that is the same as an old patent is not supposed to happen.


----------



## superleo

Steve said:


> The current TiVoHD software runs on the same basic hardware/CPU configuration as the HR2x's, so there's no reason a version could not come out today, nor does the deal explicitly stipulate that TiVo must wait for a new platform. *Deal here.*
> 
> If TiVo is aware of what DirecTV's next generation hardware platform will be and decided to wait, that's another story. If so, I think they're missing an opportunity. /steve


Not 100% sure, but isn't TivoHD MPEG2 vs. DirecTv MP4? So even if the plataform are very similar there are major differences.


----------



## Steve

superleo said:


> Not 100% sure, but isn't TivoHD MPEG2 vs. DirecTv MP4? So even if the plataform are very similar there are major differences.


Both boxes are capable of either, thanks to the BCM7401 CPU/DECODER they have in common. It offers both MPEG-2 and AVC (MPEG-4) decoding. /steve


----------



## Jhon69

Steve said:


> Sure as heck didn't hurt.
> 
> DirecTV probably could have successfully used the threat of counter-suing over the REPLAY patents as insurance against future TiVo suits, and I suspect that's why they originally made the REPLAY deal.
> 
> I guess after some consideration of the matter, tho, Mr. Malone's folks saw the new HD DVR as a no-lose proposition, and by extending the existing deal they put any talk of patent issues to bed as well, effectively killing two birds with one stone.
> 
> Not that I'm worried, but is there a way TiVo can modify the patents at all to "extend" their life? I know nothing about the legal issues surrounding this stuff, but I thought I read somewhere that in some cases, the original patent holders are able to modify them in such a way that it extends the life. /steve


Wonder if bringing back Tivo helped bring AT&T over to DirecTV,cause they used to have an AT&T Tivo DVR before,just like DirecTV did.


----------



## djrobx

Jhon69 said:


> Wonder if bringing back Tivo helped bring AT&T over to DirecTV,cause they used to have an AT&T Tivo DVR before,just like DirecTV did.


Unlikely. That was AT&T Broadband, a separate unit from the AT&T phone company. AT&T Broadband was later bought by Comcast. Meanwhile, the TV/Phone/Cellular/U-verse services we have now are mostly a brainchild of SBC who bought AT&T and renamed themselves to "at&t". So despite the naming similarity, the two couldn't be less related!


----------



## Que

Not that you can't get on demand HD from D*. Looks like TiVo also wants some of it.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2345713,00.asp

TiVo, Roku, Amazon Parter for HD Video on Demand



> TiVo owners just got another way of acquiring high-definition movies and TV shows. TiVo announced on Tuesday its new partnership with Amazon.com, which lets TiVo subscribers download HD videos from the Amazon Video on Demand service right to their DVRs.
> 
> Episodes of current TV shows will be available for purchase on both platforms for $2.99; recently released movies will be available to rent for $3.99-$4.99. Many of the titles support Dolby Digital 5.1 audio, for use with living-room surround-sound setups.


I don't know if they will make it on D* TiVo but, it would be nice to have both.


----------



## dorfd1

will it have mpeg4 tuning?


----------



## pfp

There won't be any mpeg2 HD on DirecTV by the time it comes out so I'd say - definitely.


----------



## Jeigh

DirecTV's now saying on their Twitter feed that the new DirecTiVo will be out by end of this year:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1652402513


----------



## Drew2k

Jeigh said:


> DirecTV's now saying on their Twitter feed that the new DirecTiVo will be out by end of this year:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1652402513


Actually, it says, "@bradbarrish The new TiVo HD is scheduled to be out by the end of the year."


----------



## Jhon69

dorfd1 said:


> will it have mpeg4 tuning?


I would guess it would be both MPEG2 and MPEG4.


----------



## nyelton

djrobx said:


> Meanwhile, the TV/Phone/Cellular/U-verse services we have now are mostly a brainchild of SBC who bought AT&T and renamed themselves to "at&t". So despite the naming similarity, the two couldn't be less related!


Don't forget that SBC is the old Southwestern Bell Corporation, which was formerly a subsidiary of AT&T.


----------



## bonscott87

Drew2k said:


> Actually, it says, "@bradbarrish The new TiVo HD is scheduled to be out by the end of the year."


Yea. Like a CSR that is manning the DirecTV Twitter account has some inside info that conflicts with what Tivo submitted to the SEC and what the CEO has stated, that it will be out in 2010.

If you pay attention at all to the DirecTV Twitter feed there is often misinformation and just plain wrong info that is given out. Clueless CSR strikes again.


----------



## bonscott87

bonscott87 said:


> Yea. Like a CSR that is manning the DirecTV Twitter account has some inside info that conflicts with what Tivo submitted to the SEC and what the CEO has stated, that it will be out in 2010.
> 
> If you pay attention at all to the DirecTV Twitter feed there is often misinformation and just plain wrong info that is given out. Clueless CSR strikes again.


Yep, they just corrected themselves on Twitter, pointing people to the Tivo SEC filing which states 2010. LOL.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jhon69 said:


> I would guess it would be both MPEG2 and MPEG4.


I doubt that there will be any MPEG2 to be decoded by then.

Is there any national MPEG2 now? I don't think so.

Mike


----------



## RaceTripper

MicroBeta said:


> I doubt that there will be any MPEG2 to be decoded by then.
> 
> Is there any national MPEG2 now? I don't think so.


My thoughts as well.


----------



## Doug Brott

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, they just corrected themselves on Twitter, pointing people to the Tivo SEC filing which states 2010. LOL.


Just saw that myself .. The TiVo information should be the most accurate that we currently have.


----------



## Steve

MicroBeta said:


> I doubt that there will be any MPEG2 to be decoded by then.
> 
> Is there any national MPEG2 now? I don't think so.
> 
> Mike


You'll need MPEG-2 for SD. The Broadcom decoders do both anyway, so not really an issue. /steve


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Steve said:


> You'll need MPEG-2 for SD. The Broadcom decoders do both anyway, so not really an issue. /steve


Forgot about SD. 

Mike


----------



## evan_s

Steve said:


> You'll need MPEG-2 for SD. The Broadcom decoders do both anyway, so not really an issue. /steve


For anything that can handle MPEG-4 including Mpeg 2 support is pretty trivial. If you look at the broadcom specs I'm sure it handles mpeg 1 even but I doubt anyone actually uses that for anything.


----------



## celticpride

I would like to see the new directv hd dvr be able to receive you tube.


----------



## whitepelican

MicroBeta said:


> Is there any national MPEG2 now? I don't think so.


HBOH 70
ES2H 72
ESPH 73
TNTH 75
HDTH 76
HDN 79
CBSe 80
NBCe 82
ABCe 86
FOXe 88


----------



## RaceTripper

whitepelican said:


> HBOH 70
> ES2H 72
> ESPH 73
> TNTH 75
> HDTH 76
> HDN 79
> CBSe 80
> NBCe 82
> ABCe 86
> FOXe 88


These all have MPEG4 equivalents. Aren't they being phased out?


----------



## dennisj00

celticpride said:


> I would like to see the new directv hd dvr be able to receive you tube.


The EXISTING HR2x family can get youtube videos through the latest TVersity and MediaShare. . .

Back to topic.


----------



## bonscott87

bonscott87 said:


> Yea. Like a CSR that is manning the DirecTV Twitter account has some inside info that conflicts with what Tivo submitted to the SEC and what the CEO has stated, that it will be out in 2010.
> 
> If you pay attention at all to the DirecTV Twitter feed there is often misinformation and just plain wrong info that is given out. Clueless CSR strikes again.


I do want to apologize for the "clueless CSR" remark. I'm sure the CSRs manning the Twitter feed try hard. BUT having said that, they really need to be well informed on the latest happenings and should browse the various forums for latest news because whatever they are trained on or are given as info, as we well know, isn't good enough. Twitter is *VERY* visible these days and things go viral very fast (just as Domino's) so they need to be more careful and informed when using this medium.


----------



## Lee L

RaceTripper said:


> These all have MPEG4 equivalents. Aren't they being phased out?


As another poster said, the SD channels are still MPEG 2 and probably will be for many years. Even if they phased all the HD MPEG2 out it would still need to decode it.


----------



## bonscott87

dennisj00 said:


> The EXISTING HR2x family can get youtube videos through the latest TVersity and MediaShare. . .
> 
> Back to topic.


Yep, been doing YouTube on my DirecTV reciever for a couple years now.  Also available thru PlayOn and other media extenders.

But yea, back to topic.


----------



## RaceTripper

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, been doing YouTube on my DirecTV reciever for a couple years now.  Also available thru PlayOn and other media extenders.
> 
> But yea, back to topic.


But that's not available to everyone with a HR2x.


----------



## loudo

RaceTripper said:


> But that's not available to everyone with a HR2x.


It is available to anyone who has a home network and the ability to download TVersity or any other extender software, that can send You Tube to the HR2X. But, I will say most You Tube video is pretty poor quality when viewing it on large screen HDTVs.


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> It is available to anyone who has a home network and the ability to download TVersity or any other extender software, that can send You Tube to the HR2X. But, I will say most You Tube video is pretty poor quality when viewing it on large screen HDTVs.


From what I can tell, that's only for Windows users.

Doesn't matter for me. I have an Apple TV with Boxee and Hulu.


----------



## loudo

RaceTripper said:


> From what I can tell, that's only for Windows users.
> 
> Doesn't matter for me. I have an Apple TV with Boxee and Hulu.


Ok, I forgot TVersity is Windows only. Forgot about you Apple guys. :nono2:


----------



## RaceTripper

loudo said:


> Ok, I forgot TVersity is Windows only. Forgot about you Apple guys. :nono2:


Ditto for the DirecTV stuff (Direc2PC)...it's Windows only.


----------



## bonscott87

RaceTripper said:


> From what I can tell, that's only for Windows users.
> 
> Doesn't matter for me. I have an Apple TV with Boxee and Hulu.


Mac guys have gotten some of this to work. Not sure about YouTube and Hulu but there are a few programs out there.

This is where the Windows platform certainly shines. Someone will create an app for just about anything.


----------



## RaceTripper

bonscott87 said:


> Mac guys have gotten some of this to work. Not sure about YouTube and Hulu but there are a few programs out there.
> 
> *This is where the Windows platform certainly shines*. Someone will create an app for just about anything.


Well, I've used both Windows and Mac (as well as Linux, Solaris, etc) for many years as a software engineer, and I can assure you I have yet to find any shiny bits anywhere in Windows. 

Anyway, I'm not going to try and make it work. The DirecTV harware is such an abysmal underpoerformer, I don't want to cause it any more stress. It can't even handle what it has. :nono2: Chances are Apple will improve the AppleTV hardware before DirecTV does.


----------



## qazzaq7007

RaceTripper said:


> Well, I've used both Windows and Mac (as well as Linux, Solaris, etc) for many years as a software engineer, and I can assure you I have yet to find any shiny bits anywhere in Windows.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not going to try and make it work. The DirecTV harware is such an abysmal underpoerformer, I don't want to cause it any more stress. It can't even handle what it has. :nono2: Chances are Apple will improve the AppleTV hardware before DirecTV does.


I think they are waiting for the HDMI 1.4 specs

also why is this thread in a general DIRECTV FORUM ??????

should be in a dvr forum


----------



## RaceTripper

qazzaq7007 said:


> I think they are waiting for the HDMI 1.4 specs
> 
> also why is this thread in a general DIRECTV FORUM ??????
> 
> should be in a dvr forum


Given that D* has now stated the HD TIVO is delayed into 2010, I doubt I'll ever see it. I will likely jump to DISH before then. I'm pretty fed up with DirectTVs slow hardware, as well as the inability to share recordings across devices.

The HR21 is so bad my wife keeps thinking the battery on the remote is dead when she uses it.


----------



## scottchez

Reboot the HR21 once a week and never use the external USB OTA turner and it will run real fast.


----------



## RaceTripper

scottchez said:


> Reboot the HR21 once a week and never use the external USB OTA turner and it will run real fast.


I don't even use a OTA tuner. It just always runs slow, reboot or not. I had even called to cancel and ask how to return my HR2x units and they took $20/mon off for me to stay without commitment & promised new units by years end, so I stayed for a while. But my patience is running thin now.

As I sit here now with the HR21 on, it just did another one of it's audio "briiip" sounds that all my HR2x boxes have been doing in unison for years, with no fix in sight.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

scottchez said:


> Reboot the HR21 once a week and never use the external USB OTA turner and it will run real fast.


Not good advice...they track reboots. No need to do this with a correctly-operating device.


RaceTripper said:


> As I sit here now with the HR21 on, it just did another one of it's audio "briiip" sounds that all my HR2x boxes have been doing in unison for years, with no fix in sight.


There is another thread on this topic - the problem *may be *with your local station's broadcast of national network content - you may want to chart which stations have the issue, and then contact your local affiliate's engineering department to report it.

If there are other ongoing such problems, the unit may need replacement.


----------



## Ken S

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not good advice...they track reboots. No need to do this with a correctly-operating device.
> 
> There is another thread on this topic - the problem *may be *with your local station's broadcast of national network content - you may want to chart which stations have the issue, and then contact your local affiliate's engineering department to report it.
> 
> If there are other ongoing such problems, the unit may need replacement.


What's wrong with rebooting? Who cares if they track them? If that's what is necessary to keep a unit running well then go ahead. If DirecTV realizes that's what people have to do maybe they'll fix the issue.

Here we reboot every receiver at least once every three weeks to help prevent issues.

CE folks...do it far more often than that

....

On to the main topic...I think the delay really says something about Tivo. If the DirecTV relationship is important to them this unit should have been done quickly. I guess there's a few possible reasons for the delay...everything from inept development team/management to more important projects than working with DirecTV.


----------



## bonscott87

RaceTripper said:


> Given that D* has now stated the HD TIVO is delayed into 2010, I doubt I'll ever see it.


Actually it's Tivo that has stated there will be a delay. They filed it with the SEC a couple months ago. But that's just semantics really, it's delayed. Could be delayed even more, who knows.



> as well as the inability to share recordings across devices.


Soon actually.


----------



## bonscott87

Ken S said:


> On to the main topic...I think the delay really says something about Tivo. If the DirecTV relationship is important to them this unit should have been done quickly. I guess there's a few possible reasons for the delay...everything from inept development team/management to more important projects than working with DirecTV.


Agreed. Unless the delay was due to hardware development being delayed (DirecTV issue), Tivo *really* dropped the ball here. Their goal they have stated several times was to "save" the DirecTivo subs, stop the bleeding, but by the time they get it out now there won't be many left to save. And if the cost is significantly higher as all indications are, they won't pick up that many new subs either other then the real diehards. Choice is always good, but Tivo is quickly losing, if not already lost, any type of big impact they could have made with this new receiver.


----------



## RaceTripper

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not good advice...they track reboots. No need to do this with a correctly-operating device.
> 
> There is another thread on this topic - the problem *may be *with your local station's broadcast of national network content - you may want to chart which stations have the issue, and then contact your local affiliate's engineering department to report it.
> 
> If there are other ongoing such problems, the unit may need replacement.


Why should I give a rat's ass if D* "tracks" when I reboot. If they don't like it, they can fix the damn thing. 

The audio problem is *not* with my local broadcaster because I get it with all kinds of non-local stations. The one I mentioned earlier today was on MSNBC. I'm not charting anything. If it remains unfixed, it's just another reason for me to drop them.


----------



## RaceTripper

bonscott87 said:


> Actually it's Tivo that has stated there will be a delay. They filed it with the SEC a couple months ago. But that's just semantics really, it's delayed. Could be delayed even more, who knows.


It's really pretty much irrelevant to me why it's delayed. I don't care. The result is exactly the same: it's vapor.



bonscott87 said:


> Soon actually.


Right.  I've been hearing that for so long, I've given up on it. More vapor.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RaceTripper said:


> Why should I give a rat's ass if D* "tracks" when I reboot. If they don't like it, they can fix the damn thing.


That *WAS* my point...if it needs frequent reboots....get it replaced. The fact that they track it (why you should care) is that those records help support the fact that you are having problems, which most people would think is a good thing...


> The audio problem is *not* with my local broadcaster because I get it with all kinds of non-local stations. The one I mentioned earlier today was on MSNBC. I'm not charting anything. If it remains unfixed, it's just another reason for me to drop them.


The purpose of asking if it was isolated to your local stations was just that - to see if it *IS* just on those stations. You've answered that, so again....its further evidence you may have a defective unit that needs replacing.

Getting that done should eliminate your frustration and problems.

As for getting back on track with this thread...

We now know that the new Tivobox isn't happening until 1Q 2010 or so at the soonest, so we can resume anticipating what might be contained in that unit. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


----------



## RaceTripper

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That *WAS* my point...if it needs frequent reboots....get it replaced. The fact that they track it (why you should care) is that those records help support the fact that you are having problems, which most people would think is a good thing...
> 
> The purpose of asking if it was isolated to your local stations was just that - to see if it *IS* just on those stations. You've answered that, so again....its further evidence you may have a defective unit that needs replacing.
> 
> Getting that done should eliminate your frustration and problems.


The audio problem happens simultaneously on the HR21 and two HR20s. It's been like that as long as I've had them. Once a level 2 tech support person stated it was a known problem, and that they would contact me when they had a fix. That was two years ago. I never heard back from them.

I tried to get it replaced sometime ago. I don't have the D* Protection plan (had it and D* didn't honor it anyway, so I demanded my money back and canceled). They wanted to charge me for a service tech to come to my home. No thanks.

Look, I've been with D* for 10+ years. For most of that time they were great, and clearly the best. But in the last several years they have dropped the ball. Quality has gone down, and technical innovation has stagnated.

I am hugely skeptical about the whole TIVO thing, and it's starting to sound like I'll have to pay a premium for it anyway.


----------



## joed32

RaceTripper said:


> The audio problem happens simultaneously on the HR21 and two HR20s. It's been like that as long as I've had them. Once a level 2 tech support person stated it was a known problem, and that they would contact me when they had a fix. That was two years ago. I never heard back from them.
> 
> I tried to get it replaced sometime ago. I don't have the D* Protection plan (had it and D* didn't honor it anyway, so I demanded my money back and canceled). They wanted to charge me for a service tech to come to my home. No thanks.
> 
> Look, I've been with D* for 10+ years. For most of that time they were great, and clearly the best. But in the last several years they have dropped the ball. Quality has gone down, and technical innovation has stagnated.
> 
> I am hugely skeptical about the whole TIVO thing, and it's starting to sound like I'll have to pay a premium for it anyway.


I'm pretty sure you can count on that.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RaceTripper said:


> But in the last several years they have dropped the ball. Quality has gone down, and technical innovation has stagnated.


I'm not sure either one of us is qualified to make that kind of general statement. Perhaps your experience leads you to feel that way - my experiences are not at all the same - very, very few issues at all here. 


> I am hugely skeptical about the whole TIVO thing, and it's starting to sound like I'll have to pay a premium for it anyway.


It is pretty widely thought that a premium fee of some sort ($5.99/month, for example) will be invoked (much like any other TIVO product with any other provider).


----------



## qazzaq7007

bonscott87 said:


> Agreed. Unless the delay was due to hardware development being delayed (DirecTV issue), Tivo *really* dropped the ball here. Their goal they have stated several times was to "save" the DirecTivo subs, stop the bleeding, but by the time they get it out now there won't be many left to save. And if the cost is significantly higher as all indications are, they won't pick up that many new subs either other then the real diehards. Choice is always good, but Tivo is quickly losing, if not already lost, any type of big impact they could have made with this new receiver.


It is common knowledge that the TIVO was delayed by DIRECTV NOT TIVO

this is because they want it mainly on the whole house solution plus they are waiting for USB 3.0 & HDMI 1.4

so finally the box has more than a 1 year usefulness cycle (in other words is not obsolete as soon as it is released) since these two new standards are coming out for 2010 and will be around for 5 years or so.


----------



## RobertE

qazzaq7007 said:


> It is common knowledge that the TIVO was delayed by DIRECTV NOT TIVO
> 
> this is because they want it mainly on the whole house solution plus they are waiting for USB 3.0 & HDMI 1.4
> 
> so finally the box has more than a 1 year usefulness cycle (in other words is not obsolete as soon as it is released) since these two new standards are coming out for 2010 and will be around for 5 years or so.


Please provide a link to support your "claims".


----------



## Drew2k

RobertE said:


> qazzaq7007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is common knowledge that the TIVO was delayed by DIRECTV NOT TIVO
> 
> this is because they want it mainly on the whole house solution plus they are waiting for USB 3.0 & HDMI 1.4
> 
> so finally the box has more than a 1 year usefulness cycle (in other words is not obsolete as soon as it is released) since these two new standards are coming out for 2010 and will be around for 5 years or so.
> 
> 
> 
> Please provide a link to support your "claims".
Click to expand...

Thank you ... I was going to ask the same. I first learned of a delay from reports on the TiVo SEC filing, and then in a quarterly call DIRECTV repeated the informatino about the TiVo delay. I've seen nothing on Engadget or even Swanni that DIRECTV is the cause of the delay ...


----------



## Steve

I always assumed the new DirecTiVo was just going to be a port of the TiVoHD software to the HR2x hardware, but based on public comments Chase Carey made the other day... that the new DirecTiVo would not be a "different experience", TiVo could instead be writing a software layer that co-exists with the existing HR2x software, similar to what they did with Comcast and Cox. All speculation on my part, but if this is true, TiVo _could _ conceivably be waiting for DirecTV to finalize any new features they're planning on rolling out in the near future.

Otherwise, if it could have just been a port to the existing platform, they really dropped the ball! So maybe there are reasons for the delay out of TiVo's control that we just don't know about. /steve


----------



## Flyrx7

Maybe as soon as MRV and DLB get ironed out they'll slap a Tivo sticker on it and charge another $6. Perhaps current testing is actually Tivo SW beta. 
I mean as long as we're speculating....


----------



## litzdog911

qazzaq7007 said:


> It is common knowledge that the TIVO was delayed by DIRECTV NOT TIVO
> 
> this is because they want it mainly on the whole house solution plus they are waiting for USB 3.0 & HDMI 1.4
> 
> so finally the box has more than a 1 year usefulness cycle (in other words is not obsolete as soon as it is released) since these two new standards are coming out for 2010 and will be around for 5 years or so.


"Common knowledge"? Really? What the heck are you talking about? This is Tivo's game to play. There's no reason why DirecTV would want to "force" any sort of delay.


----------



## bidger

Lot of recent activity for a thread that had been dormant for a month. Still no TiVo box though.


----------



## ATARI

litzdog911 said:


> "Common knowledge"? Really? What the heck are you talking about? This is Tivo's game to play. There's no reason why DirecTV would want to "force" any sort of delay.


+1


----------



## bonscott87

RaceTripper said:


> Right.  I've been hearing that for so long, I've given up on it. More vapor.


Perhaps you should stop by the CE forums more often.


----------



## RaceTripper

bonscott87 said:


> Perhaps you should stop by the CE forums more often.


But I'm not interested in dealing with CE releases, or being a paying beta tester, or having to plan time around software release windows, and so on. I just want something that works without having to work at it, or risking that it goes wrong and ends up with hell to pay when my wife can't watch her shows and recordings.


----------



## qazzaq7007

litzdog911 said:


> "Common knowledge"? Really? What the heck are you talking about? This is Tivo's game to play. There's no reason why DirecTV would want to "force" any sort of delay.


it is called "common sense" a quality i see is rarely used here.

You currently have HR23's and below with hdm1 1.1 or etc and usb 2.0 on them

when the TIVO was first announced it was thought USB 3.0 and HDM1 1.4 would be coming out by the announced 2009 launch of the new TIVO

when that was not shown to happen DIRECTV had no choice to delay the project as why would you release your new flagship DVR & Whole House solution with very old tech (these TIVO's and whole house represent their most expensive investment and products ever) and within a year have to put new boxes out with the major new hdmi and usb (this is different than the small tech changes that happen)

as I said THINK


----------



## litzdog911

I highly doubt that USB 3.0 or HDMI 1.4 have anything to do with any delays. But you're certainly entitled to THINK whatever you like


----------



## Drew2k

RaceTripper said:


> But I'm not interested in dealing with CE releases, or being a paying beta tester, or having to plan time around software release windows, and so on. I just want something that works without having to work at it, or risking that it goes wrong and ends up with hell to pay when my wife can't watch her shows and recordings.


Your previous post indicated that you believed it was vaporware, but you were invited to visit the CE forum where you would have learned that it does indeed exist, and is currently being tested. That's far from vaporware. I can not think of one feature that was not in the final week of a CE release that did not also make it into a national release, so without a doubt, all you have to do is wait for CE testing to finish and you'll have MRV (ability to share media across devices) this year. It's not vaporware, it's on the way to you, courtesy of DIRECTV and all the great testing of DBSTalk CE'ers ...


----------



## RaceTripper

Drew2k said:


> Your previous post indicated that you believed it was vaporware, but you were invited to visit the CE forum where you would have learned that it does indeed exist, and is currently being tested. That's far from vaporware. I can not think of one feature that was not in the final week of a CE release that did not also make it into a national release, so without a doubt, all you have to do is wait for CE testing to finish and you'll have MRV (ability to share media across devices) this year. It's not vaporware, it's on the way to you, courtesy of DIRECTV and all the great testing of DBSTalk CE'ers ...


It may be in CE, but I've been hearing for a pretty long time it's RSN, and yet none of it has materialized outside of testing. To me it is vapor until it's in a national release. I've seen no guarantees from DirecTV or even a public announcement that it will be made available. Until it is on my box, the semantics of it being or not being vaporware don't really matter.


----------



## Drew2k

RaceTripper said:


> It may be in CE, but I've been hearing for a pretty long time *it's RSN*, and yet none of it has materialized outside of testing. To me it is vapor until it's in a national release. I've seen no guarantees from DirecTV or even a public announcement that it will be made available. Until it is on my box, the semantics of it being or not being vaporware don't really matter.


RSN? Regional Sports Network? 

True - those who consider features or services as "vaporware" will not be satisifed even with evidence that proves it exists, as they only care about when they can have it. That is your right, but please do consider as you explore options other than DIRECTV that it will be a feature that DIRECTV is actively working on and members of this forum are publicly testing for delivery to you this year. Good luck, and with no malice intended, I hope you will be pleasantly surprised sometime this year.


----------



## jacmyoung

litzdog911 said:


> ... There's no reason why DirecTV would want to "force" any sort of delay.


I can think of one, not to "force" any delay, but simply not so interested in rolling out the new TiVo DVR at all.

We know D* is working hard on their own DVRs, adding a lot of new functions mostly in the CE programs, that has to cost some R&D money. Why try so hard if the new TiVo DVR is to provide similar functionalities and mostly done by TiVo?

Maybe because D* does not like the idea of paying TiVo "a significantly higher monthly fee" and instead likes to focus on its own DVR development.

I know some say but what if those TiVo fans are willing to pay the extra $6? The question is not whether there are those who will pay the extra $6, but how many, and at what mass threshold will it make D* willing to spend the manufacturing and marketing dollars on such effort.

I don't think TiVo is trying to blow it, just that there is nothing TiVo can do if D* is not providing the necessary hardware and R&D support for them to do it.

Logic tells me if this project gets delayed, it is likely that D* does not care to move it quickly, not TiVo.


----------



## harsh

Given that DIRECTV and TiVo have been using USB on a surprisingly limited basis, I'm not sure what meat dish SuperSpeed USB might bring to the vegetarian potluck.

Given that HDMI 1.4 was announced just four days ago, it will be years before anyone even tries to figure out what it might be used for in terms of home entertainment.


----------



## NickD

harsh said:


> Given that HDMI 1.4 was announced just four days ago, it will be years before anyone even tries to figure out what it might be used for in terms of home entertainment.


And how many people are really going to upgrade their entire systems to handle the new HDMI or USB. My receiver does HDMI 1.3 but none of my other equipment does. I am not going to replace what I have for a marginal improvement over something that I may not even notice a difference with.


----------



## RaceTripper

Drew2k said:


> RSN? Regional Sports Network?
> 
> True - those who consider features or services as "vaporware" will not be satisifed even with evidence that proves it exists, as they only care about when they can have it. That is your right, but please do consider as you explore options other than DIRECTV that it will be a feature that DIRECTV is actively working on and members of this forum are publicly testing for delivery to you this year. Good luck, and with no malice intended, I hope you will be pleasantly surprised sometime this year.


RSN = Real Soon Now

I'm old enough to know that no matter how real something seems, until it is a production release there are no guarantees it'll ever see the light of day. I'm in the software industry and there have been many, many instances of things that were in beta test and even reasonably mature and close to production quality that never made it to release, for various reasons.

It wouldn't shock me at all if DirecTV abruptly and suddenly abandoned stuff in CE, e.g. as a result of recession budget-tightening, maybe even to shift to a single focus of working on HD TIVO. I could easily see them freeze the HR2x feature set and abandon further development to save money.

I doubt you know for a fact the CE stuff will be released. That DirecTV is actively working on it is still no guarantee. I hope you are correct, and it will be released before I decide on something else, but I don't think it's fact that it will.


----------



## Movieman

jacmyoung said:


> We know D* is working hard on their own DVRs, adding a lot of new functions mostly in the CE programs, that has to cost some R&D money. Why try so hard if the new TiVo DVR is to provide similar functionalities and mostly done by TiVo?


I have been following this thread and this is probably the closest to making sense of why the delay. Other than giving consumers the option of a Tivo box or in-house DVR, seems that the DVR, with future updates could run most if not all services run on a Tivo. I was doing a lot of reading online on Tivo's services and such and find myself not needing their box with what I already have.

I think its more of an issue for those that already have Tivo wanting to keep Tivo-like services. If I can get my HD-DVR to do everything I have read that Tivo could do then I wont buy Tivo since I wasn't charged for the STB and the package includes HD and DVR. We will see what they come up with. Interesting to follow.


----------



## Movieman

RaceTripper said:


> RSN = Real Soon Now
> 
> I'm old enough to know that no matter how real something seems, until it is a production release there are no guarantees it'll ever see the light of day. I'm in the software industry and there have been many, many instances of things that were in beta test and even reasonably mature and close to production quality that never made it to release, for various reasons.
> 
> It wouldn't shock me at all if DirecTV abruptly and suddenly abandoned stuff in CE, e.g. as a result of recession budget-tightening, maybe even to shift to a single focus of working on HD TIVO. I could easily see them freeze the HR2x feature set and abandon further development to save money.
> 
> I doubt you know for a fact the CE stuff will be released. That DirecTV is actively working on it is still no guarantee. I hope you are correct, and it will be released before I decide on something else, but I don't think it's fact that it will.


I must have been posting while you were typing this. In recession time it might make more sense to abandon Tivo for now than having 1000+ forum members testing CE at no cost other than code to Directv. But again I could be very wrong. In house sometimes is cheaper and sometimes outsourcing to the guy that is ready to implement the services your looking for is cheaper. All depends on how much R&D is really costing with the board members testing and retesting much more than I have seen in any company.


----------



## RaceTripper

Movieman said:


> I must have been posting while you were typing this. In recession time it might make more sense to abandon Tivo for now than having 1000+ forum members testing CE at no cost other than code to Directv. But again I could be very wrong. In house sometimes is cheaper and sometimes outsourcing to the guy that is ready to implement the services your looking for is cheaper. All depends on how much R&D is really costing with the board members testing and retesting much more than I have seen in any company.


I agree that it's something that might go go either way (if anything like that were to happen). My whole point was nothing more than to say that just because a company is actively working on something and has people testing it, is still no guarantee that it will become a general release. Sometimes companies make decisions to abandon projects in ways that make no sense to external observers.


----------



## Doug Brott

Folks, this thread is about the TiVo, not CE .. let's keep it that way.


----------



## inkahauts

Um, after reading the last few posts, I feel the need to mention, Directv isn't doing anything with Tivo... Tivo is spending the money to make the Tivo software that will land in Directv boxes... So Tivo platform spending for Directv is zero.. Tivo will get there money back when people start paying the monthly fees to Tivo after the box is released, and Tivo's new units will cost a premium in addition to Directv's DVR fees... 

Unless something ridiculously drastic happens, I don't see Directv stopping work on their HR line of boxes, because if they did, they would not be able to meet the goals they have outlined for stockholders for the last 2 years... Saying that Directv will freeze their systems now and then hope Tivo bails them out is like saying Microsoft is going to freeze their R&D and wait for Apple to release software for windows based pc's.....

There will always be someone who would rather have a tivo unit instead of a directv one, even if the Directv one does everything and more than the Tivo.. Its GUI is different, and for some reason, some people like it better....


----------



## Ken S

inkahauts said:


> Um, after reading the last few posts, I feel the need to mention, Directv isn't doing anything with Tivo... Tivo is spending the money to make the Tivo software that will land in Directv boxes... So Tivo platform spending for Directv is zero.. Tivo will get there money back when people start paying the monthly fees to Tivo after the box is released, and Tivo's new units will cost a premium in addition to Directv's DVR fees...
> 
> Unless something ridiculously drastic happens, I don't see Directv stopping work on their HR line of boxes, because if they did, they would not be able to meet the goals they have outlined for stockholders for the last 2 years... Saying that Directv will freeze their systems now and then hope Tivo bails them out is like saying Microsoft is going to freeze their R&D and wait for Apple to release software for windows based pc's.....
> 
> There will always be someone who would rather have a tivo unit instead of a directv one, even if the Directv one does everything and more than the Tivo.. Its GUI is different, and for some reason, some people like it better....


Ink,

That's not quite correct. It's been a while since I read the Tivo/DirecTV agreement (it was in Tivo's SEC filing). DirecTV is putting some resources into the development and also has certain minimum revenue numbers that must be met or they have to pay some sort of additional payment to Tivo. DirecTV is invested in the new Tivo box.


----------



## jacmyoung

Ken S said:


> ...putting some resources into the development


Remember reading that, but not this:



> and also has certain minimum revenue numbers that must be met or they have to pay some sort of additional payment to Tivo...


----------



## bonscott87

RaceTripper said:


> It may be in CE, but I've been hearing for a pretty long time it's RSN, and yet none of it has materialized outside of testing. To me it is vapor until it's in a national release. I've seen no guarantees from DirecTV or even a public announcement that it will be made available. Until it is on my box, the semantics of it being or not being vaporware don't really matter.


Ok, couple things. It's only been in testing for a month or so.

Second, Chase, the CEO of DirecTV, has stated a few times recently, including their recent investor call that MRV was coming by year's end and it was a stepping stone technology for the whole home DVR server next year.

So yea, it has been publicly announced that MRV is to be released by the end of the year and we are now seeing the testing for that begin.

Heck, MRV has actually been available on non DVR receivers in CE since last fall.

I guess if you want to call that vaporware be my guest. But it's here, it's in testing and it coming your way when that testing is completed, end of year is the official timeline. Ignore as you wish. I was merely pointing you to the CE forum for more information, you don't have to participate to educate yourself. 

EDIT: I missed Doug's post. Feel free to edit or delete my post as needed but I will say nothing more about CE. Race has been directed to the CE forum for more information more then once, up to him to follow the advice.


----------



## evan_s

qazzaq7007 said:


> it is called "common sense" a quality i see is rarely used here.
> 
> You currently have HR23's and below with hdm1 1.1 or etc and usb 2.0 on them
> 
> when the TIVO was first announced it was thought USB 3.0 and HDM1 1.4 would be coming out by the announced 2009 launch of the new TIVO
> 
> when that was not shown to happen DIRECTV had no choice to delay the project as why would you release your new flagship DVR & Whole House solution with very old tech (these TIVO's and whole house represent their most expensive investment and products ever) and within a year have to put new boxes out with the major new hdmi and usb (this is different than the small tech changes that happen)
> 
> as I said THINK


This really doesn't make any sense at all.

What potential benefit does either of those new standards provide for a HD DVR?

E-sata and usb 2.0 area already fast enough for external Hds.

Hdmi 1.4? The only one that even seems applicable is the addition of the networking stuff but most definitely not critical to the product. More to the point the current DVRs aren't even HDMI 1.3 compatible and they don't really need to be. The older specs already cover their needs.

Even assuming that the Tivo will be a new box, which i don't think is correct, I see no reason to delay the product for new standards that won't impact the functionality of the product at all. In the end HDMI 1.4 and usb 3 would just be feature check boxes for uninformed buyers that assume higher must mean better.


----------



## dreadlk

I cant possibly see any reason why Directv would be interested in having a Tivo version come out before d* has gotten the HR2X series perfected. If a Tivo unit came out today and it was more reliable than the HR2x it would make Directv look like a bunch of idiots! Idiots who have spent 3 Years, millions of dollars and had thousands of Beta Testers and could not make a reliable product! My suspision is that a TIVO unit will come out as soon as Directv feels there own HR2X is superior and reliable.


----------



## johnp37

Superior AND reliable? And I'll be the next Pope. LOL


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The general information is that it will be a DirecTV box running Tivo firmware/software. Collaberation on the hardware will happen, but these are the roles and responsibilities for the 2010 unit.


----------



## Doug Brott

dreadlk said:


> I cant possibly see any reason why Directv would be interested in having a Tivo version come out before d* has gotten the HR2X series perfected. If a Tivo unit came out today and it was more reliable than the HR2x it would make Directv look like a bunch of idiots! Idiots who have spent 3 Years, millions of dollars and had thousands of Beta Testers and could not make a reliable product! My suspision is that a TIVO unit will come out as soon as Directv feels there own HR2X is superior and reliable.


It's in TiVo's hands to succeed or fail .. The agreement has been signed, it's not like DIRECTV's keeping TiVo from completing their task. DIRECTV get's the "sale" either way since they provide.


----------



## RCY

TIVO can fail on their own, but they cannot succeed without D*'s help. Any embedded software development project will fail without a good board support package, RTOS and hardware interface documentation. That is all D* proprietary info given at D*'s discretion. Will the TIVO developers get the same software development kit the HR2x team does? I would hope so, but maybe D* will hold some proprietary info back. Fortunately, D* also sells the final product, so I think it is in their interests for TIVO to succeed.


----------



## harsh

RCY said:


> That is all D* proprietary info given at D*'s discretion. Will the TIVO developers get the same software development kit the HR2x team does? I would hope so, but maybe D* will hold some proprietary info back.


If you look back a ways, you may find a link to a heavily redacted version of the TiVo agreement with DIRECTV. DIRECTV plays a significant part in the agreement even with many of the words missing.

I think it is in DIRECTV's best interest not to violate the terms of the agreement as a critical feature of the agreement is the non-litigation terms.

Obviously it isn't like TiVo doesn't know their way around the chipset as the TiVo machines have many key components in common.


----------



## RCY

harsh said:


> If you look back a ways, you may find a link to a heavily redacted version of the TiVo agreement with DIRECTV. DIRECTV plays a significant part in the agreement even with many of the words missing.
> 
> I think it is in DIRECTV's best interest not to violate the terms of the agreement as a critical feature of the agreement is the non-litigation terms.
> 
> Obviously it isn't like TiVo doesn't know their way around the chipset as the TiVo machines have many key components in common.


As I had said before, I do think D* will try to support this effort.

There are many day-to-day situations that arise that fall outside of contractual wording. I've been in some disagreements with BSP suppliers about what they were "required" to provide. Contracts are important, but not all that is needed.

As far as chipsets are concerned, you can develop a different BSP, lay a different RTOS on top and come up with an entirely different development environment for the same chipsets. I don't know anything about who developed the boards, board support packages or RTOS in the TIVOs or HR2x. They could be very similar. Or not.


----------



## jacmyoung

RCY said:


> ...*A* Fortunately, D* also sells the final product, *B* so I think it is in their interests for TIVO to succeed.


I don't necessarily think A automatically leads to B in this case.

If D* were interested in having TiVo succeed, they would not have been working so hard to switch the D* TiVo subs to their own DVRs.



harsh said:


> ...as a critical feature of the agreement is the non-litigation terms...


I think it depends on the assessment of the likelihood of the litigation and the chance for winning and losing in the litigation, such assessment changes over time.


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> I don't necessarily think A automatically leads to B in this case.
> 
> If D* were interested in having TiVo succeed, they would not have been working so hard to switch the D* TiVo subs to their own DVRs.
> 
> I think it depends on the assessment of the likelihood of the litigation and the chance for winning and losing in the litigation, such assessment changes over time.


Why? Tivo does not have out the new HD DirecTivo yet so which HDDVR should DirecTV offer their HD subscribers?.

Well let's see Tivo so far has received 104 million from Dish and resigned an agreement with DirecTV.Looks like it's Tivo:2,Others:none so far.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> I don't necessarily think A automatically leads to B in this case.
> 
> If D* were interested in having TiVo succeed, they would not have been working so hard to switch the D* TiVo subs to their own DVRs.
> 
> I think it depends on the assessment of the likelihood of the litigation and the chance for winning and losing in the litigation, such assessment changes over time.


You seem to imply that DirecTV has no intention to go through with the deal. Do I understand you correctly?

If so, for me this makes no sense what so ever.

Why go through all the work and expense to hammer out a deal in they aren't going to honor it. To avoid litigation?

DirecTV and TiVo already have an agreement in place for not to sue over patent issues so what does this new agreement do that's different?

Mike


----------



## loudo

jacmyoung said:


> If D* were interested in having TiVo succeed, they would not have been working so hard to switch the D* TiVo subs to their own DVRs.


They were switching customers over to their own unit because when they started moving all of the HD services from MPG2 to MPG4, the older TIVO HR10-250, could not receive MPG4. As they no longer had an agreement with TIVO, and no new MPG4 TIVO receivers were being developed, the switchover was to replace outdated equipment. The switch was needed, for customers to continue receiving their HD programing.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

loudo said:


> They were switching customers over to their own unit because when they started moving all of the HD services from MPG2 to MPG4, the older TIVO HR10-250, could not receive MPG4. As they no longer had an agreement with TIVO, and no new MPG4 TIVO receivers were being developed, the switchover was to replace outdated equipment. The switch was needed, for customers to continue receiving their HD programing.


I think they started switching was because they decided to go in house for DVR hardware & software.

IIRC, DirecTV didn't go in house for hardware/software because of a lack of agreement with TiVo but rather the other way around. They wanted to go in house so they didn't renew their agreement with TiVo.

TiVo could have built an MPEG4 HD/DVR but wasn't asked to.

I could be wrong....but I don't think so. :grin:

Mike


----------



## ATARI

MicroBeta said:


> TiVo could have built an MPEG4 HD/DVR but wasn't asked to.


You are correct.


----------



## jacmyoung

Jhon69 said:


> Why? Tivo does not have out the new HD DirecTivo yet so which HDDVR should DirecTV offer their HD subscribers?.


Just proved my point, if D* were interested in TiVo's success, at least they would first show some interest in their own D*TiVo success, for example by telling those subs look we are working hard on the new TiVo DVRs for you guys.

You do not hear any words from D* other than hey why don't you just switch to our own DVRs? Does that sound like D* is interested in TiVo's success?


----------



## jacmyoung

loudo said:


> They were switching customers over to their own unit because when they started moving all of the HD services from MPG2 to MPG4, the older TIVO HR10-250, could not receive MPG4. As they no longer had an agreement with TIVO, and no new MPG4 TIVO receivers were being developed, the switchover was to replace outdated equipment. The switch was needed, for customers to continue receiving their HD programing.


For the sake of TiVo's success, D* could of course not have switched over those MPEG2 HD channels, and let them stay for a while for the sake of those D*TiVo subs, but they did not, again not a behavior that demonstrated that D* was interested in TiVo's success.


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> You seem to imply that DirecTV has no intention to go through with the deal. Do I understand you correctly?


"Not interested" is a better phrase.



> Why go through all the work and expense to hammer out a deal in they aren't going to honor it. To avoid litigation?
> 
> DirecTV and TiVo already have an agreement in place for not to sue over patent issues so what does this new agreement do that's different?
> 
> Mike


Of course there was interest on the D* part to retain those loyal D*TiVo subs, but if D* in the process sees less and less need to go through the hassle to retain those subs, for example when they saw those D*TiVo subs had no difficulties switching to D*'s own DVRs, then over time there might be less interest on D*'s part to get the new unit out as initially planned.


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> ...TiVo could have built an MPEG4 HD/DVR but wasn't asked to...


In all of the TiVo's license agreements, whether with D*, Comcast...no one asked them to build the hardware for them. In fact TiVo made a point of such arrangement, saves them all the manufacturing expenses.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Another, simpler explanation is that DIRECTV doesn't promote things before they are ready.

And the transition to MPEG4 has been underway long before this contract was initiated. 

Was there a time when DIRECTV "wasn't interested" in TiVo's future? Well... that is probably hard to say--they have always maintained a relationship with them, paid fees, and continued contracts. That said, obviously they stopped using TiVo's set top boxes for awhile. 

Is DIRECTV more committed to TiVo now? I sure think so. They could have signed a basic contract extension, but instead worked toward this agreement with more fees and requirements of DIRECTV for a product I think they think will help them. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> In all of the TiVo's license agreements, whether with D*, Comcast...no one asked them to build the hardware for them. In fact TiVo made a point of such arrangement, saves them all the manufacturing expenses.


That is the current TiVo arrangement. Previously they were in the hardware business.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> That is the current TiVo arrangement. Previously they were in the hardware business.


And they still are, but hardware business has not been associated with such licensing agreement model. My point was, it was not unusual for D* not to "ask" TiVo to build the hardware for them as part of the licensing agreement.

Whether D* is more committed to TiVo or not we can agree to disagree.


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> "Not interested" is a better phrase.
> 
> Of course there was interest on the D* part to retain those loyal D*TiVo subs, but if D* in the process sees less and less need to go through the hassle to retain those subs, for example when they saw those D*TiVo subs had no difficulties switching to D*'s own DVRs, then over time there might be less interest on D*'s part to get the new unit out as initially planned.


Directv has a history of NOT advertising something in any way until its actually working, unless its a broad stroke kind of thing.. The last time they did any marketing, and it was only a little in store stuff, for a piece of hardware before it came out, it was the SRHD-500, the first HD receiver with an integrated OTA tuner with the regular sat guide.. And it was 9 months late on delivery, so I can see why you won't hear a peep out of Directv till it actually hits.. Plus in this economy, spending money on advertising something that you don't even have a firm date on is stupid.. Plus, why would you advertise it now and take away possible sales of current units because people may hold off rather than get anything.. It is far more logical for Directv to keep everything on the back burner, like they do with everything else, from a marketing standpoint until something actually hits...


----------



## inkahauts

Ken S said:


> Ink,
> 
> That's not quite correct. It's been a while since I read the Tivo/DirecTV agreement (it was in Tivo's SEC filing). DirecTV is putting some resources into the development and also has certain minimum revenue numbers that must be met or they have to pay some sort of additional payment to Tivo. DirecTV is invested in the new Tivo box.


I don't think Directv is spending a dime until its time to market tivo on this new product.. Because any new hardware they create for it will also be for their platform, so they'd be spending the money on it anyway...


----------



## Jhon69

jacmyoung said:


> Just proved my point, if D* were interested in TiVo's success, at least they would first show some interest in their own D*TiVo success, for example by telling those subs look we are working hard on the new TiVo DVRs for you guys.
> 
> You do not hear any words from D* other than hey why don't you just switch to our own DVRs? Does that sound like D* is interested in TiVo's success?


Again I have to ask this question"Which HDDVR should DirecTV tell it's HD subscriber's to get"?.After all at this time there is only one the DirecTV HDDVR+.

It seems like you are suggesting DirecTV does not want to work with Tivo even though DirecTV signed an agreement with Tivo.That DirecTV is going to try and back out of their agreement with Tivo.I for one hope that's definitely not the case just look how Tivo is mopping the floor with Dish!.Tivo:2 Dish:0.:kickbutt:

DirecTV you made the right decision!.:goodjob:


----------



## Ken S

inkahauts said:


> I don't think Directv is spending a dime until its time to market tivo on this new product.. Because any new hardware they create for it will also be for their platform, so they'd be spending the money on it anyway...


It depends on what you mean by spending money. I would guess they have some employees partially/fully dedicated to the Tivo project. Employees generally get paid and usually it's more than a dime.


----------



## wingrider01

Jhon69 said:


> Again I have to ask this question"Which HDDVR should DirecTV tell it's HD subscriber's to get"?.After all at this time there is only one the DirecTV HDDVR+.
> 
> It seems like you are suggesting DirecTV does not want to work with Tivo even though DirecTV signed an agreement with Tivo.That DirecTV is going to try and back out of their agreement with Tivo.I for one hope that's definitely not the case just look how Tivo is mopping the floor with Dish!.Tivo:2 Dish:0.:kickbutt:
> 
> DirecTV you made the right decision!.:goodjob:


Curious on your meaning of "After all at this time there is only one the DirecTV HDDVR+" - where do you see only 1 Directv DVR

If you look back of the thread and the various press releases you will see that the Directv DVR will be the standard offering, the other unit will be available when requested and more then likely have an additional surcharge on it

>>>>>
Like prior products developed by TiVo and DIRECTV, the new HD offering will be marketed and sold by DIRECTV nationally to its entire customer base as part of its growing portfolio of brand name video offerings. Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product.

"As the industry's content and technology leader, DIRECTV has a long-standing reputation for developing innovative, advanced products and services, including our highly successful series of DVRs and HD DVRs," said Chase Carey, president and CEO, DIRECTV, Inc. "We will continue to work with TiVo and make this new product available to all new and existing DIRECTV customers who may want to add TiVo on top of our industry leading experience."
<<<<<


----------



## ATARI

wingrider01 said:


> where do you see only 1 Directv DVR
> QUOTE]
> 
> If you want an HD DVR from D*, then your only 'choice' is an HR series.


----------



## Jhon69

wingrider01 said:


> Curious on your meaning of "After all at this time there is only one the DirecTV HDDVR+" - where do you see only 1 Directv DVR
> 
> If you look back of the thread and the various press releases you will see that the Directv DVR will be the standard offering, the other unit will be available when requested and more then likely have an additional surcharge on it
> 
> >>>>>
> Like prior products developed by TiVo and DIRECTV, the new HD offering will be marketed and sold by DIRECTV nationally to its entire customer base as part of its growing portfolio of brand name video offerings. Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product.
> 
> "As the industry's content and technology leader, DIRECTV has a long-standing reputation for developing innovative, advanced products and services, including our highly successful series of DVRs and HD DVRs," said Chase Carey, president and CEO, DIRECTV, Inc. "We will continue to work with TiVo and make this new product available to all new and existing DIRECTV customers who may want to add TiVo on top of our industry leading experience."
> <<<<<


As of today 6-3-2009 if you want DirecTV's MPEG4 HD channels you would have to get DirecTV's HDDVR+ HR2x.Then in the first half of 2010 the new MPEG4 HD DirecTivo is supposed to be available.


----------



## wingrider01

Jhon69 said:


> As of today 6-3-2009 if you want DirecTV's MPEG4 HD channels you would have to get DirecTV's HDDVR+ HR2x.Then in the first half of 2010 the new MPEG4 HD DirecTivo is supposed to be available.


figured - but there are more then 1 HR2X

Currently have

2 - HR20
1 - HR21

and hopefully soon a HR23

Those are 3 distinct models, not 1

The Tivo unit is a non-issue here, it has nothing that I need or that I don't already have on the HR2x's that is even remotely worthwhile


----------



## wingrider01

ATARI said:


> wingrider01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> where do you see only 1 Directv DVR
> QUOTE]
> 
> If you want an HD DVR from D*, then your only 'choice' is an HR series.
> 
> 
> 
> but as mentioned, there are 3 distinct models, kind of like saying if you want a car - get a ford, they are all cars so they are the same thing with no differences
Click to expand...


----------



## anubys

wingrider01 said:


> but as mentioned, there are 3 distinct models, kind of like saying if you want a car - get a ford, they are all cars so they are the same thing with no differences


well, that's a little disingenuous...the choices really are a Mustang, and Mustang with a red stripe, and a Mustang with a moon roof...


----------



## ATARI

wingrider01 said:


> ATARI said:
> 
> 
> 
> but as mentioned, there are 3 distinct models, kind of like saying if you want a car - get a ford, they are all cars so they are the same thing with no differences
> 
> 
> 
> They are different revs of the same model.
> 
> More like a 2007 Mustang, a 2008 Mustang and a 2009 Mustang.
Click to expand...


----------



## anubys

ATARI said:


> They are different revs of the same model.
> 
> More like a 2007 Mustang, a 2008 Mustang and a 2009 Mustang.


I'll go with that...software-wise, there's hardly any difference...and they took out something with the 08 model (OTA tuners), so it's actually worse...

for all intents and purposes, from a user point of view, they are pretty much identical...


----------



## Richierich

I heard from a Senior Directv CSR that the NEW MPEG-4 Directivo unit would have 4 tuners which really BLEW me away and would be Great if it is True!!!


----------



## mburns

richierich said:


> I heard from a Senior Directv CSR that the NEW MPEG-4 Directivo unit would have 4 tuners which really BLEW me away and would be Great if it is True!!!


ya, pro 2 sat tuners and 2 atsc tuners


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect it will be several months before we get some *reliable* information on the content in the new HD Tivobox.

Right now, its all speculation. Somehow, they're going to have to have something in there that justifies having to pay for any added Tivo fee.


----------



## RaceTripper

anubys said:


> I'll go with that...software-wise, there's hardly any difference...and they took out something with the 08 model (OTA tuners), so it's actually worse...
> 
> for all intents and purposes, from a user point of view, they are pretty much identical...


Not to mention they don't really even represent a choice. Call up D* to order one, and you get what they give you. You can't specify the exact model.


----------



## bonscott87

wingrider01 said:


> but as mentioned, there are 3 distinct models, kind of like saying if you want a car - get a ford, they are all cars so they are the same thing with no differences


Others have made better analogies. The software is the same on all models. There are only minor hardware differences.

HR20 - The original
HR21 = HR20 without OTA tuners
HR22 = HR21 with larger hard drive
HR23 = HR22 with built in BBCs

That's pretty much it!


----------



## loudo

mburns said:


> ya, pro 2 sat tuners and 2 atsc tuners


That would be nice, give us our OTA tuners back.
OK, just a dream.


----------



## Richierich

Yes with 2 OTA Tuners I could Record 4 programs at the same time. I can still do that with my 2 DVRs in my den but it would just be easier.


----------



## wingrider01

ATARI said:


> wingrider01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are different revs of the same model.
> 
> More like a 2007 Mustang, a 2008 Mustang and a 2009 Mustang.
> 
> 
> 
> still 3 distinct units, ask the tax man
Click to expand...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Seems like every analogy has its weaknesses. Let us move back to the DIRECTV TiVo in 2010 topic. :backtotop

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

mburns said:


> ya, pro 2 sat tuners and 2 atsc tuners


Um, you have 4 tuners now if you have an HR20 or another HR2x with an AM21.... Just as the HR10-250 did... Now if they had said it would record 4 different channels at the same time, that would be different.. I think the next gen platform from Directv will have at least 4 sat tuners built in, (if it was me, I'd make it 8 and then just add clients for the whole home, 8 a good number based on swm) and that platform would also be available for Tivo software.. but thats just my wild guess...


----------



## Movieman

This is the reason I have been holding out in having to purchase another HR2x. The first one was given to me as part of the package but the next one will cost me $$$. If they can make a STB with more than 2 tuners regardless if its from Tivo or not that would really take care of everything for me. During the Fall Season too many programs are competing for the same time slots.


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## gregjones

There is no reason to believe that any TIVO offering would have the ability to record more than two broadcast streams (non-VOD) at once. We have four tuners now. You can record any two of them at once. To do more would be a significant hardware as well as software change.


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## osetivo

> The Tivo unit is a non-issue here, it has nothing that I need or that I don't already have on the HR2x's that is even remotely worthwhile


I'm glad that people are happy with their DTV DVRs, but my entire family can't wait to go back to DirecTiVo boxes, even if they continue to lack all of the features of the standalone TiVo's or DTV DVRs. My familiy's admittedly subjective overall "user experience" with various SD & HD DirecTiVos over the past 9 years has been much better than that of the HR23-700s.

I just couldn't stand the lack of MPEG2 HD channels any longer.

My only hope is that there are no further delays.


----------



## mikela

The only way i see tivo making a successful re-entry into the directv market is if it comes with all the bells and whistles like MRV, transfering video to PC and vise versa, video on demand, ect. Maybe it will bring something new into the mix of features like being able to schedule recordings between multiple tivo's to avoid recording conficts.


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## CCarncross

mikela said:


> *transferring video to PC, and vise versa*, video on demand, ect. Maybe it will bring something new into the mix of features like being able to schedule recordings between multiple tivo's to avoid recording conficts.


I don't believe in this digital day and age you will see any front line commercial devices developed that will allow that anymore. Too many in Washington to lobby against it.


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## Movieman

gregjones said:


> There is no reason to believe that any TIVO offering would have the ability to record more than two broadcast streams (non-VOD) at once. We have four tuners now. You can record any two of them at once. To do more would be a significant hardware as well as software change.


I would hope that they do decide to do it. U-verse gives this as an option. Although I know the program is not great but it would, for me, make my full tv experience perfect.

I'm not sure what you mean by "we have 4 tuners now". Unless you have 2 DVR's which is what I want to avoid. I don't personally like the idea of having to pay for something that is leased.


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## Christopher Gould

Movieman said:


> I would hope that they do decide to do it. U-verse gives this as an option. Although I know the program is not great but it would, for me, make my full tv experience perfect.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "we have 4 tuners now". Unless you have 2 DVR's which is what I want to avoid. I don't personally like the idea of having to pay for something that is leased.


i beleive he means 2 sat tuners and 2 OTA tuners. you can only record 2 in in combo.


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## Richard Chalk

Movieman said:


> I don't personally like the idea of having to pay for something that is leased.


This is a misconception. The up-front cost is a way of ofsetting the lease cost. If you look at most car/truck leases, for example, there will be an initial cash payment, and then a monthly charge for the lease.

If you look at it from the supplier's point of view, it is a way of avoiding getting behind on depreciation. If there were no up-front payment, and, say, $7.00 per month instead of $5.00, then if the customer cancels after a few months, the machine would be worth less, but the cost recovery would be almost nothing. Even after the cancellation charge, it would probably still be a loss on their books. If they get $200 up front, then it is probably about break-even.


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## bonscott87

Richard Chalk said:


> This is a misconception. The up-front cost is a way of ofsetting the lease cost.


Yep.

And the difference with cable is this:
DirecTV - $0 to $199 up front, $5 a month (only if it's not your primary reciever, otherwise no monthly cost)
Cable - Usually $0 up front, $15-$20 a month

Doesn't take long for cable to cost you a whole lot more and you just keep on paying it forever. I'd much rather pay a bit up front and keep my long term monthly and total cost much lower.


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## bonscott87

Movieman said:


> I would hope that they do decide to do it. U-verse gives this as an option. Although I know the program is not great but it would, for me, make my full tv experience perfect.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "we have 4 tuners now". Unless you have 2 DVR's which is what I want to avoid. I don't personally like the idea of having to pay for something that is leased.


We'll most likely have the 4 tuners in one box with the ability to record 4 at once in the upcoming DirecTV Home Media Server (whole home DVR) due in 2010. Every indication so far on the new Tivo is that this will simply be a regular HD DVR (like the HR2x) and the user will get the choice of the DirecTV interface or Tivo (for an upcharge). So unless the home media server has the Tivo UI...


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## mkstretch

I hope Directv will not lock out all the great Tivo features they offer, like Tivotogo. Being able to transfer your recorded shows to your PC or portable media device I think is a key feature considering all the iPod and laptop users.


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## wingrider01

mkstretch said:


> I hope Directv will not lock out all the great Tivo features they offer, like Tivotogo. Being able to transfer your recorded shows to your PC or portable media device I think is a key feature considering all the iPod and laptop users.


Given DRM - do not think there is a good chance of this happening.


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## tkrandall

bonscott87 said:


> We'll most likely have the 4 tuners in one box with the ability to record 4 at once in the upcoming DirecTV Home Media Server (whole home DVR) due in 2010.


So many interesting things to ponder about the whole house DVR concept. How many tuners (your suggestion is 4), how many simultaneous outputs, etc.

I have 2 DirecTivos and one HR20. The way we record and use dual live buffers, we often have 6 tuners fully active.


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## gregjones

Movieman said:


> I would hope that they do decide to do it. U-verse gives this as an option. Although I know the program is not great but it would, for me, make my full tv experience perfect.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "we have 4 tuners now". Unless you have 2 DVR's which is what I want to avoid. I don't personally like the idea of having to pay for something that is leased.


The HR20 series has 2 satellite tuners and 2 OTA tuners. The other HR series DVRs have the ability to add 2 OTA tuners. Though only two can records simultaneously, 4 tuners is a real option today.

I personally think that the cost-justification on adding additional tuners to any off-the-shelf DVR would be a losing proposition. With MRV features, additional satellite tuners utilized from additional DVRs would become a much less pressing problem. Then you would simply have all DVR tuners (satellite tuners) in the house available for recording. To me, this is more attractive than a stack of DVRs in one place or a costly limited distribution super mega tuner box.

This equipment is affordable because of the number of units shipped. Throwing a lot of bells and whistles (like built-in wireless, extra tuners) will add to the cost to all customers when many would not use them. This would drive down the demand for the units and maintain prices at a high level. I'd rather have two commodity pieces of hardware in wide distribution than one that had limited distribution at more than twice the price.


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## gregjones

For the record, I would have an easy way to resolve a lot of the scheduling conflicts requiring more than two tuners if the networks were available via VOD.


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## bonscott87

mkstretch said:


> I hope Directv will not lock out all the great Tivo features they offer, like Tivotogo. Being able to transfer your recorded shows to your PC or portable media device I think is a key feature considering all the iPod and laptop users.


I would agree that this will never happen due to DRM. The thing you must remember is that it has been stated that this new HD DirecTivo will be built on the *DirecTV multimedia platform*. Thus it will use DirecTV technology such as their MRV and if connection to the PC is possible it would use the DirecTV2PC application. The Tivo versions of this would not be used. So unless they do an about face on what they have announced nobody should be counting on the Tivo versions of any of the DirecTV features to be on this box.


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## gregjones

bonscott87 said:


> I would agree that this will never happen due to DRM. The thing you must remember is that it has been stated that this new HD DirecTivo will be built on the *DirecTV multimedia platform*. Thus it will use DirecTV technology such as their MRV and if connection to the PC is possible it would use the DirecTV2PC application. The Tivo versions of this would not be used. So unless they do an about face on what they have announced nobody should be counting on the Tivo versions of any of the DirecTV features to be on this box.


Platform generally refers to a set of hardware specifications. I take it to mean that it will use DirecTV's hardware specifications, but the software will be different (or there would be no point in the choice).

I believe that MRV (which is a product almost entirely composed of software) would not be the DirecTV offering, if present. I think that all discussions of features (TIVO or DirecTV) that will be present on this box are guesses. The UI is different. The content restrictions may be significantly different. Where a standalone TIVO box is using a channel in the clear, this is not the case for the DirecTV platform. It is DirecTV's hardware to be used, giving them (and their content providers) considerable leverage on how that content is delivered to the user.

In short, the openness of walking off with a log of copyrighted material is probably a thing of the past. You can't pay a PPV fee and get a digital copy of a movie forever. Don't expect to put it on an archive either.


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## tkrandall

Maybe it's just me, but I like the idea of separate DVR boxes with 2 tuners (2 OTA and 2 SAT) and buffers available at any time for each and every TV. 

Now, being able to network among them and/or have all of them save to a common esata hard drive in a central location - those would be attractive features.


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## Jhon69

It will be interesting to see what is offered in the new HD DirecTivo as it has been stated the HDDVR fee will be more than $6. because the new HD DirecTivo is to be marketed as a Premium HDDVR service.


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## Movieman

gregjones said:


> The HR20 series has 2 satellite tuners and 2 OTA tuners. The other HR series DVRs have the ability to add 2 OTA tuners. Though only two can records simultaneously, 4 tuners is a real option today.
> 
> I personally think that the cost-justification on adding additional tuners to any off-the-shelf DVR would be a losing proposition. With MRV features, additional satellite tuners utilized from additional DVRs would become a much less pressing problem. Then you would simply have all DVR tuners (satellite tuners) in the house available for recording. To me, this is more attractive than a stack of DVRs in one place or a costly limited distribution super mega tuner box.
> 
> This equipment is affordable because of the number of units shipped. Throwing a lot of bells and whistles (like built-in wireless, extra tuners) will add to the cost to all customers when many would not use them. This would drive down the demand for the units and maintain prices at a high level. I'd rather have two commodity pieces of hardware in wide distribution than one that had limited distribution at more than twice the price.


If it wasn't a demand then U-verse wouldn't be selling as much as it is where the DVR is no charge. I could be wrong and it simply a nitch market.



gregjones said:


> For the record, I would have an easy way to resolve a lot of the scheduling conflicts requiring more than two tuners if the networks were available via VOD.


This i agree 100%. When I had cable I didn't have much of a problem cause I could get the shows after they aired. I think most networks are online so that is one way to do it but I like watching them the same night just without the commercials.


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## JoeTheDragon

bonscott87 said:


> Yep.
> 
> And the difference with cable is this:
> DirecTV - $0 to $199 up front, $5 a month (only if it's not your primary reciever, otherwise no monthly cost)
> Cable - Usually $0 up front, $15-$20 a month
> 
> Doesn't take long for cable to cost you a whole lot more and you just keep on paying it forever. I'd much rather pay a bit up front and keep my long term monthly and total cost much lower.


comcast makes you pay about $15 per HD or DVR up front even if you pick it up on your own and there other prices are higher then direct as well.


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## jaywdetroit

FWIW: http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html


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## dodge boy

jaywdetroit said:


> FWIW: http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html


I went there and it said my email address was already signed up... :lol:


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## Mike Bertelson

jaywdetroit said:


> FWIW: http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/directv-signup.html





dodge boy said:


> I went there and it said my email address was already signed up... :lol:


That's been around for a while.

Someone finds it and posts it.

I just wish something would come of it.

Mike


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## my1423

I think some are missing the new features already out and the direction they are trying to go. I dont know of if tivo will be involved or not but this is the direction D* is already going and i dont think tivo is needed. Maybe they want them purely for software rights ect but the hardware is not needed!

SWM 8 tuners one cable plus legacy ports. Swm lnb capable of 2 8 tuner output. Mrv, one main box then cheap Ethernet sling boxes with power line adapters. Eventually years from now Ethernet and wireless will all be integrated into the tv for internet so no other equipment then the dish.

As for now you will soon see one 8 tuner HD box with expandable drive room for the living room (the new whole home system), and cheap up to 7 or 8 expansion units with NO WIRES for the rest of the house all capable of full controll over the main unit. All about simplifying the install and eliminating equipment. If you need another unit you dont need any install. Just plug it in and hook it to the tv. The main unit may eventually not even be in the house and have no tv hookup. Think about it. A power cord extending to the antenna witch has a black box on it. Thats the full install. All other units all feed via power line Ethernet or built in wireless. 

What does D* get out of this? 
Standardized install, 
Cheap, 
Less service calls,
Little or no liability,
Smaller workforce,
Apartment installs a breeze,
No wires!
Install like cable so all tvs can have service with no added equipment.
Lots more.


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## ATARI

The whole new TiVo DVR thing may be a moot point for me if D* rolls out DLB on a national release this year (as seems likely).

In which case, I'll deactivate my H20, move my HR20 in it's place and buy a new HR23 for the living room.


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## Flyrx7

Yep,

Count me as one waiting to see what the NR version of DLB turns out to be as well. With any luck the receiver will have some speed and reduced pixelation glitches too, otherwise the Tivo unit will still be worth investigating.


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## Movieman

Tonight is a prime example on the tuner issue. Every Sunday I have 2 programs set to record. Tonight I found 2 additional shows that I would like to record but cant because of the time conflict. I searched VOD and not one of the programs is an option. Granted I could wait for 2 of them to show up on the networks website tomorrow but would be nice to be able to record all tonight and then watch them all tonight without commercials before bed. I really hope Directv either in-house or through Tivo works on this. As the Fall season comes around this is going to become more of a problem for my viewing experience. I only record 3 days of the week and all the shows are competing in the same time slot. I'm just lucky that my wife's shows dont conflict with mine otherwise I wouldnt be able to see anything.


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## joed32

That's why a lot of us have multiple DVRs. After the initial expense it's only $5 per month.


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## gregjones

Movieman said:


> Tonight is a prime example on the tuner issue. Every Sunday I have 2 programs set to record. Tonight I found 2 additional shows that I would like to record but cant because of the time conflict. I searched VOD and not one of the programs is an option. Granted I could wait for 2 of them to show up on the networks website tomorrow but would be nice to be able to record all tonight and then watch them all tonight without commercials before bed. I really hope Directv either in-house or through Tivo works on this. As the Fall season comes around this is going to become more of a problem for my viewing experience. I only record 3 days of the week and all the shows are competing in the same time slot. I'm just lucky that my wife's shows dont conflict with mine otherwise I wouldnt be able to see anything.


If any of them are cable shows, they are likely run throughout the week. Most cable networks show the popular shows repeatedly. I generally only worry about conflicts if the shows are all broacast network shows.

Broadcast network shows get higher priority settings so they get recorded the first (and often only) time. Cable shows get lower priority because all of the ones I watch get repeated.


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## Swami

The interesting question posed was by a poster wondering why DirecTV would want to get involved with TIVO again.

This question is best answered by reversing it: Why did DirecTV ever sever its relationship with TIVO when (especially at the time) TIVO was the most technologically advanced DVR on the market? 

The answer is simple. Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. purchased DirecTV in 2003. Some time later News Corp. became associated with NDS Group, a maker of specialized video equipment, including a DVR which competes with TIVO. By terminating its agreement with TIVO, News Corp. was able to throw 100% of its DVR business to its subsidiary NDS. 

In 2006 News Corp. sold its interest in DirecTV to a group associated with Liberty Media, which has no hardware affiliate associated with DVR's.

The true question, then, is: Why would Liberty Media (DirecTV) patronize a second-rate product that is owned by a competitor and could theoretically leave DirecTV high and dry whenever it wanted to?


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## Shades228

gregjones said:


> If any of them are cable shows, they are likely run throughout the week. Most cable networks show the popular shows repeatedly. I generally only worry about conflicts if the shows are all broacast network shows.
> 
> Broadcast network shows get higher priority settings so they get recorded the first (and often only) time. Cable shows get lower priority because all of the ones I watch get repeated.


Time for another DVR.


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## Sixto

Swami said:


> The true question, then, is: Why would Liberty Media (DirecTV) patronize a second-rate product that is owned by a competitor and could theoretically leave DirecTV high and dry whenever it wanted to?


The HR2x was totally developed in-house with no linkage to NDS (other then the access card technology).


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## veryoldschool

Sixto said:


> The HR2x was totally developed in-house with no linkage to NDS (other then the access card technology).


 Don't let "facts" get in the way of a good rant/agenda posting, please. :lol:


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## Syzygy

Swami said:


> • Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. purchased DirecTV in 2003.
> • Some time later News Corp. became associated with NDS Group, maker of a DVR competing with TiVo.
> • News Corp. terminated TiVo agreement, intending to give 100% of its DVR business to NDS.
> • In 2006 News Corp. sold its interest in DirecTV to ... Liberty Media, which has no [interest in making] DVRs.


Thank you, Swami. Excellent history lesson!


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## Doug Brott

Swami said:


> The interesting question posed was by a poster wondering why DirecTV would want to get involved with TIVO again.
> 
> This question is best answered by reversing it: Why did DirecTV ever sever its relationship with TIVO when (especially at the time) TIVO was the most technologically advanced DVR on the market?
> 
> The answer is simple. Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. purchased DirecTV in 2003. Some time later News Corp. became associated with NDS Group, a maker of specialized video equipment, including a DVR which competes with TIVO. By terminating its agreement with TIVO, News Corp. was able to throw 100% of its DVR business to its subsidiary NDS.
> 
> In 2006 News Corp. sold its interest in DirecTV to a group associated with Liberty Media, which has no hardware affiliate associated with DVR's.
> 
> The true question, then, is: Why would Liberty Media (DirecTV) patronize a second-rate product that is owned by a competitor and could theoretically leave DirecTV high and dry whenever it wanted to?


So what is the "second-rate product that is owned by a competitor?" Last I checked, software development was in-house, so the only "competitor" here is TiVo's new hardware platform.

As for "terminating it's agreement with TiVo." If you recall, TiVo and DIRECTV have maintained a continuous relationship all along and continue to do so today. Perhaps this simple answer is .. DIRECTV took on the cost of creating their own in-house development team because it was going to cost a lot more to pay TiVo than for DIRECTV to do it themselves. I doubt there is any conspiracy here.


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## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Thank you, Swami. Excellent history lesson!


even if it's not entirely accurate


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## Movieman

Sixto said:


> The HR2x was totally developed in-house with no linkage to NDS (other then the access card technology).


When i read that history I got confused. I thought NDS was just the smart card side of the business.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Movieman said:


> When i read that history I got confused. I thought NDS was just the smart card side of the business.


It was for a long time, then NDS was the software author for all new receivers, now it is a legacy software for a few of the receivers. The HR2x, R22, H21/23 do not use NDS code as the base software.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> ... DIRECTV took on the cost of creating their own in-house development team because it was going to cost a lot more to pay TiVo than for DIRECTV to do it themselves. I doubt there is any conspiracy here.


Who said there was a conspiracy? As I read it, it was just standard business practice, disregarding (of course) the wishes and needs of the customer in order to try to save a few pennies (per month, per customer). (But I think they hurt themselves, on balance.)


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> (But I think they hurt themselves, on balance.)


If you use number of installed units as a basis, I suspect that DIRECTV is now higher than the peak for TiVo units. I don't have raw data, so this is just a guess. Either way, I would disagree. On balance, I think they are better off in the route that they have chosen.


----------



## Syzygy

One reason I think they hurt themselves is that it may be costing D* an unexpectedly large amount of their money to replace defective units. Before you can say it, I'll admit that that might be only wishful thinking on my part.


----------



## wingrider01

Syzygy said:


> One reason I think they hurt themselves is that it may be costing D* an unexpectedly large amount of their money to replace defective units. Before you can say it, I'll admit that that might be only wishful thinking on my part.


All of the HR2X units that I have running have been running for a couple of years, the only defective units I have replaced recently are the ones based on the old TIVO software


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## Steve

wingrider01 said:


> All of the HR2X units that I have running have been running for a couple of years, the only defective units I have replaced recently are the ones based on the old TIVO software


I assume the TiVo's pre-date the HR2x's, so that failure rate could also be explained by the age of the hardware.

I don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that one or more of the companies building the HR2x's also built the DirecTiVo's, and that the "build quality" was pretty comparable.


----------



## msmith

wingrider01 said:


> All of the HR2X units that I have running have been running for a couple of years, the only defective units I have replaced recently are the ones based on the old TIVO software


I'll offset this anecdote. I've had an HR10-250 run for at least 4 years. I've had two different HR2x boxes suffer hard drive failure (a 3rd is still fine 2 years later) - one after only 6 months.


----------



## Bizarroterl

I have a DirecTivo that's so old I can't even remember when I got it (10years ago?). Never had a problem.


----------



## veryoldschool

Steve said:


> I assume the TiVo's pre-date the HR2x's, so that failure rate could also be explained by the age of the hardware.
> 
> I don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that one or more of the companies building the HR2x's also built the DirecTiVo's, and that the "build quality" was pretty comparable.


There was a TiVo inspection [failure] tag once found inside a "made in Mexico" HR20.
Build quality has seen its ups & downs, but mostly as the production moved to Asia.
The only "apples to apples" comparison should be with current builds.


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## veryoldschool

Bizarroterl said:


> I have a DirecTivo that's so old I can't even remember when I got it (10years ago?). Never had a problem.


 I could say the something about my Sony TVs. Those that I got in the '70s & '80s, lasted longer than those in the '90s & '00s, which only shows how manufacturing processes have changed, even from the same company.


----------



## gregjones

Swami said:


> The interesting question posed was by a poster wondering why DirecTV would want to get involved with TIVO again.
> 
> This question is best answered by reversing it: Why did DirecTV ever sever its relationship with TIVO when (especially at the time) TIVO was the most technologically advanced DVR on the market?
> 
> The answer is simple. Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. purchased DirecTV in 2003. Some time later News Corp. became associated with NDS Group, a maker of specialized video equipment, including a DVR which competes with TIVO. By terminating its agreement with TIVO, News Corp. was able to throw 100% of its DVR business to its subsidiary NDS.
> 
> In 2006 News Corp. sold its interest in DirecTV to a group associated with Liberty Media, which has no hardware affiliate associated with DVR's.
> 
> The true question, then, is: Why would Liberty Media (DirecTV) patronize a second-rate product that is owned by a competitor and could theoretically leave DirecTV high and dry whenever it wanted to?


You are overlooking the TiVO ownership of a number of DVR-related patents. As TiVO control the ability of any provider to use some functionality, it would appear to be beneficial to deal with them.


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## wingrider01

Steve said:


> I assume the TiVo's pre-date the HR2x's, so that failure rate could also be explained by the age of the hardware.
> 
> I don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that one or more of the companies building the HR2x's also built the DirecTiVo's, and that the "build quality" was pretty comparable.


Would have to check back on the shipping papers, went through 4 or 5 HR10's when they where new and the only game on the block, still have the first HR20 they shipped me to replace the HR10 when it failed the last time and that was right after the HR20's where introduced.


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## Syzygy

Steve said:


> I assume the TiVo's pre-date the HR2x's, so that failure rate could also be explained by the age of the hardware.
> 
> I don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that one or more of the companies building the HR2x's also built the DirecTiVo's, and that *the "build quality" was pretty comparable*.


Maybe so, maybe no... but what about the fact that the HR2x's are designed to be made as cheaply as possible, and with less-capable parts, especially the newest models? (I'm going to also assume that the parts now being specified for HR2x's are more likely to fail.)


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## Shades228

More manufacturers made TiVo's then HR series. The R10 was the only DirecTV branded Tivo before that they were all still labeled by the manufacturer.


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## wingrider01

Syzygy said:


> Maybe so, maybe no... but what about the fact that the HR2x's are designed to be made as cheaply as possible, and with less-capable parts, especially the newest models? (I'm going to also assume that the parts now being specified for HR2x's are more likely to fail.)


what you are alluding to sounds like normal manufacturing in todays day and age. Minimum cost of build to maximize profits.

Funny thing though, personal expierence has shown I had more failures of the HR10 then I had of the HR2X's in the same exact environment - whole house generator with highend server UPS on the home theatre.


----------



## Steve

Syzygy said:


> Maybe so, maybe no... but what about the fact that the HR2x's are designed to be made as cheaply as possible, and with less-capable parts, especially the newest models? (I'm going to also assume that the parts now being specified for HR2x's are more likely to fail.)


I could be wrong, but I'd be comfortable betting that 95% of returns on either the DirecTiVo's or HR2x's are attributable to hard disk failure, and not the mobo components. Maybe as high as 99% if the unit fails after 3-4 months of trouble-free use.


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## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> I could be wrong, but I'd be comfortable betting that 95% of returns on either the DirecTiVo's or HR2x's are attributable to hard disk failure, and not the mobo components. Maybe as high as 99% if the unit fails after 3-4 months of trouble-free use.


Except for those fried by a nearby lightning strike or similar event


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## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Except for those fried by a nearby lightning strike or similar event


Point taken! Good news is we're past the days of kids jamming things inside the VCR.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> If you use number of installed units as a basis, I suspect that DIRECTV is now higher than the peak for TiVo units. I don't have raw data, so this is just a guess.


I suspect that if you look at the TiVo financial reports you could get a pretty good idea of what the remaining DirecTiVo population is and then add a few hundred for SA TiVo users. I don't think there's much reason to speculate with your heart when you can divine numbers from the published data.


----------



## Drew2k

harsh said:


> I suspect that if you look at the TiVo financial reports you could get a pretty good idea of what the remaining DirecTiVo population is and then add a few hundred for SA TiVo users. I don't think there's much reason *to speculate with your heart* when you can divine numbers from the published data.


I didn't think he was doing that ... he said he was guessing. Do you have data that refutes his guess?


----------



## bonscott87

harsh said:


> I suspect that if you look at the TiVo financial reports you could get a pretty good idea of what the remaining DirecTiVo population is and then add a few hundred for SA TiVo users. I don't think there's much reason to speculate with your heart when you can divine numbers from the published data.


Well, DirecTV has stated in a few of their recent conference calls that now over 60% of their entire customer base has an HD and or DVR. Now sure there are a few non DVRs in that count but I think you can assume well over 8 million people with HR2x of some sort.

DirecTivo at their peak had about 4 million and it's down well under 2 million last number I saw (about a year ago when Tivo stopped breaking out DirecTV numbers). Safe bet it under 1.5 million today, probably less.


----------



## Sixto

8/26/2009: "Lastly, the new DIRECTV TiVo HD DVR remains on track for its rollout and, as we stated previously, once launched, it will be immediately accessible to DIRECTV's entire national customer base."http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1324788&highlight=​Today's conference call:http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-EventDetails&EventId=2372342​Also, TiVo Files Complaints for Patent Infringement Against AT&T and Verizon Communications in United States District Court, Eastern District of Texas; Seeking Damages and Injunction.http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1324787&highlight=​Should have transcript soon ...


----------



## Doug Brott

Interesting news on the infringement cases .. Makes DIRECTV's continuing agreements with TiVo look even better.


----------



## DarinC

Doug Brott said:


> Syzygy said:
> 
> 
> 
> (But I think they hurt themselves, on balance.)
> 
> 
> 
> If you use number of installed units as a basis, I suspect that DIRECTV is now higher than the peak for TiVo units. I don't have raw data, so this is just a guess. Either way, I would disagree. On balance, I think they are better off in the route that they have chosen.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that they now have more HR units than they ever had TiVo units. But I don't think you can really infer anything from that. There's nothing to suggest they wouldn't have as many or more TiVo units if they had stuck with them. I would bet that ALL the carriers have many more DVR units now than they had four years ago. DVRs are MUCH more common now with customers than they were then. DirecTV also has a lot more customers now than they did then. Probably partially due to their dominance in HD over the past couple years. Furthermore, many of us have been forced off of TiVo for HD service, since the TiVos were pre-MPEG4 units.

It's kind of like saying Ford has more 2007 models on the road than 1997 models. That doesn't _necessarily _mean the 2007 models are more reliable. I tend to agree with Syzygy. I genuinely think that customer satisfaction was much higher with the TiVo units than it has been with the HR2x series. I remember back during the TiVo days, there were many comments that DirecTV _wanted _their customers to have TiVos, because they knew that once the customers got them, they loved them. I'm quite sure there were references to the fact that they had much lower churn with the TiVo customers than non-DVR homes. I'd be surprised if current HR2x customers didn't have _higher _churn than non-DVR homes.


----------



## houskamp

DarinC said:


> I have no doubt that they now have more HR units than they ever had TiVo units. But I don't think you can really infer anything from that. There's nothing to suggest they wouldn't have as many or more TiVo units if they had stuck with them. I would bet that ALL the carriers have many more DVR units now than they had four years ago. DVRs are MUCH more common now with customers than they were then. DirecTV also has a lot more customers now than they did then. Probably partially due to their dominance in HD over the past couple years. Furthermore, many of us have been forced off of TiVo for HD service, since the TiVos were pre-MPEG4 units.
> 
> It's kind of like saying Ford has more 2007 models on the road than 1997 models. That doesn't _necessarily _mean the 2007 models are more reliable. I tend to agree with Syzygy. I genuinely think that customer satisfaction was much higher with the TiVo units than it has been with the HR2x series.* I remember back during the TiVo days, there were many comments that DirecTV wanted their customers to have TiVos, because they knew that once the customers got them, they loved them. I'm quite sure there were references to the fact that they had much lower churn with the TiVo customers than non-DVR homes.* I'd be surprised if current HR2x customers didn't have _higher _churn than non-DVR homes.


 by your same logic might it have been because people liked ANY DVR they could get better than no dvr? at that time there was only one dvr..

oh, does anyone else find it strange that there hasn't been a peep about this new dvr? seems to have been awfull quite on that front..


----------



## BattleScott

Doug Brott said:


> Interesting news on the infringement cases .. Makes DIRECTV's continuing agreements with TiVo look even better.


Also very interesting that shortly after extending their agreement and both sides agreeing not to pursue such patent infringement actions on each other, DirecTV introduces arguably the most desired and long requested feature not present in their own line of DVRs from their inception.


----------



## DarinC

houskamp said:


> by your same logic might it have been because people liked ANY DVR they could get better than no dvr? at that time there was only one dvr..


Yes, I would say most would. But there wasn't just _one _DVR. Dish had a DVR, Comcast had a DVR, etc. People didn't stick with DirecTV because they had *a* DVR. They had a DVR they liked. If all they wanted was any DVR, they could get that anywhere. I remember when DirecTV was was at a definite disadvantage compared to Dish for HD. Everyone complained because DirecTV had to downrez HD. But people didn't like the Dish hardware. At that point in time, it was pretty well known that DirecTV had the best hardware. Personally, I think at best they're on par now.

The point remains that the DirecTiVos were an attribute for DirecTV. I feel the satisfaction level for the HR2x is _much _more mixed. There are still carriers that have less impressive hardware, but I don't feel DirecTV is the leader in this area they once were. They have plenty of features, just not always the right ones, and not always with the best reliability or performance.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Will D* even have light drv with 1 tuner. Small or no HD, maybe just a ram disk system. Just to have a small live buffer, a VOD download buffer, and a network buffer at the box?

useing the network off of a full dvr or the online vod system.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DarinC said:


> I have no doubt that they now have more HR units than they ever had TiVo units. But I don't think you can really infer anything from that. There's nothing to suggest they wouldn't have as many or more TiVo units if they had stuck with them. I would bet that ALL the carriers have many more DVR units now than they had four years ago. DVRs are MUCH more common now with customers than they were then. DirecTV also has a lot more customers now than they did then. Probably partially due to their dominance in HD over the past couple years. Furthermore, many of us have been forced off of TiVo for HD service, since the TiVos were pre-MPEG4 units.
> 
> It's kind of like saying Ford has more 2007 models on the road than 1997 models. That doesn't _necessarily _mean the 2007 models are more reliable. I tend to agree with Syzygy. I genuinely think that customer satisfaction was much higher with the TiVo units than it has been with the HR2x series. I remember back during the TiVo days, there were many comments that DirecTV _wanted _their customers to have TiVos, because they knew that once the customers got them, they loved them. I'm quite sure there were references to the fact that they had much lower churn with the TiVo customers than non-DVR homes. I'd be surprised if current HR2x customers didn't have _higher _churn than non-DVR homes.


Darin, I think you have a very good analysis of the "Big Picture".

All in all, the new release of the TiVo for DIRECTV will be an interesting event. Either it will be an interesting non-event or an interesting study. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

BattleScott said:


> Also very interesting that shortly after extending their agreement and both sides agreeing not to pursue such patent infringement actions on each other, DirecTV introduces arguably the most desired and long requested feature not present in their own line of DVRs from their inception.


I think your case would be stronger if the timing were closer... 

As you likely know, DLB or Double Play was not a patented item, so that one small detail in and of itself wasn't part of the equation.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> Also very interesting that shortly after extending their agreement and both sides agreeing not to pursue such patent infringement actions on each other, DirecTV introduces arguably the most desired and long requested feature not present in their own line of DVRs from their inception.


The agreement was re-upped almost exactly 1 year ago as you note was an extension to an existing agreement. It's highly doubtful there is any coorelation there.


----------



## BattleScott

Tom Robertson said:


> I think your case would be stronger if the timing were closer...


Roughly 6 months from the agreement extension to the first appearance of a "Tuner Swap" function in a CE release. Timing sounds just about right to me.



Tom Robertson said:


> As you likely know, DLB or Double Play was not a patented item, so that one small detail in and of itself wasn't part of the equation.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Perhaps not "DLB" in and of itself, but the use of a physical "buffer" for the purpose of "time-shifting" video content certainly is. So any type of buffering functionality would certainly come dangerously close to that concept, especially in the eyes of a patent attourney trying to make sure no infringement claims might be upheld.



Doug Brott said:


> The agreement was re-upped almost exactly 1 year ago as you note was an extension to an existing agreement. It's highly doubtful there is any coorelation there.


The agreement was much more that just a simple extension. It included the new HDDVR announcement as well as the agreement by both sides not to seek patent infringement action against each other for features included in their respective DVR products.


----------



## harsh

bonscott87 said:


> Well, DirecTV has stated in a few of their recent conference calls that now over 60% of their entire customer base has an HD and or DVR.


The 60% figure was a percentage of new subscribers, not the entire user base. IIRC, the percentage of advanced technology devices hasn't topped 50% yet and it is likely that a good deal of those installations include SD DVRs (both DIRECTV and DirecTiVo). Then there are the die-hard HR10 users.

TiVo doesn't appear to have detailed the subscription numbers for the various MSOs in the recent earnings release. It may be in there somewhere, but I haven't found it yet. Given that there are more than 1.46 million non-TiVo subscriptions, I'd guess that DIRECTV accounts for at least half of them.


----------



## bobcamp1

BattleScott said:


> Perhaps not "DLB" in and of itself, but the use of a physical "buffer" for the purpose of "time-shifting" video content certainly is. So any type of buffering functionality would certainly come dangerously close to that concept, especially in the eyes of a patent attourney trying to make sure no infringement claims might be upheld.


The main functionality of the single buffer probably infringes. Dual buffers has nothing to do with it.

I can't find the patent that claims DLB. Perhaps this was part of the original agreement between D* and Tivo where D* agreed originally to not implement them. Maybe the new agreement changed that.

Does anyone know for sure who (if anyone) owns this patent?


----------



## BattleScott

bobcamp1 said:


> The main functionality of the single buffer probably infringes. Dual buffers has nothing to do with it.
> 
> I can't find the patent that claims DLB. Perhaps this was part of the original agreement between D* and Tivo where D* agreed originally to not implement them. Maybe the new agreement changed that.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure who (if anyone) owns this patent?


That is my point exactly. Here is the timeline as I see it my head:
(which admittedly can be a scary place:eek2

- DirecTV decides that the TiVo relationship is no longer desirable.

- DirecTV begins work on their own "branded" line of DVRs.

- DirecTV monitors TiVo vs. Echostar proceedings carefully.

- DirecTV makes concerted efforts to guarantee that their inhouse DVRs are "different" enough to avoid potential similar litigation.

- A conscious decison is made to omit the "DLB" functionality from the HR-Series of DVRs as a way to help keep them "distinquishable" from TiVo systems.

- DirecTV releases the +Plus Series of SD and HD DVRs.

- Almost immediately, the "where's the DLB function?" question is raised.

- For several years the DLB functionality is the most widely sought and hotly debated topic in all of DirecTV forumland. DirecTV is seemingly indifferent to the public demand for this feature.

- DirecTV changes ownership and a new agreement is signed between DirecTV and TiVO that, among other things, allows each side to freely utilize each others intellectual properties without fear of litigation.

- Approximately 6 months later "DLB", the most asked for and passionately desired function missing from the DirecTV branded DVRs, makes it's debut in a CE release for the DirecTV HR series of DVRs.

Coincidence, I think not...


----------



## Razorback747

If anyone ever comes up with a way to convert HR10-250s to MPEG4 I'll be the first to send mine off. I'll give my HR21-100 to my parents. The large size of the osd and the sloooow speed matches them perfectly.


----------



## Steve

BattleScott said:


> That is my point exactly. Here is the timeline as I see it my head:
> (which admittedly can be a scary place:eek2
> 
> - DirecTV decides that the TiVo relationship is no longer desirable.
> 
> - DirecTV begins work on their own "branded" line of DVRs.
> 
> - DirecTV monitors TiVo vs. Echostar proceedings carefully.
> 
> - DirecTV makes concerted efforts to guarantee that their inhouse DVRs are "different" enough to avoid potential similar litigation.
> 
> - A conscious decison is made to omit the "DLB" functionality from the HR-Series of DVRs as a way to help keep them "distinquishable" from TiVo systems.
> 
> - DirecTV releases the +Plus Series of SD and HD DVRs.
> 
> - Almost immediately, the "where's the DLB function?" question is raised.
> 
> - For several years the DLB functionality is the most widely sought and hotly debated topic in all of DirecTV forumland. DirecTV is seemingly indifferent to the public demand for this feature.
> 
> - DirecTV changes ownership and a new agreement is signed between DirecTV and TiVO that, among other things, allows each side to freely utilize each others intellectual properties without fear of litigation.
> 
> - Approximately 6 months later "DLB", the most asked for and passionately desired function missing from the DirecTV branded DVRs, makes it's debut in a CE release for the DirecTV HR series of DVRs.
> 
> Coincidence, I think not...


You could be right, but AUTOCORRECT, another of the patents in question re: AT&T and Verizon, was implemented by DirecTV about 2 years go, way prior to Liberty taking over. I think the right to emulate what TiVo claims is their IP was part of the first agreement that ran through 2010, so DLB's could have been implemented as well back then, if DirecTV chose to do so.

*7,493,015 B1 ("Automatic Playback Overshoot Correction System")
*


----------



## Tom Robertson

BattleScott said:


> That is my point exactly. Here is the timeline as I see it my head:
> (which admittedly can be a scary place:eek2
> 
> - DirecTV decides that the TiVo relationship is no longer desirable.
> 
> - DirecTV begins work on their own "branded" line of DVRs.
> 
> - DirecTV monitors TiVo vs. Echostar proceedings carefully.
> 
> - DirecTV makes concerted efforts to guarantee that their inhouse DVRs are "different" enough to avoid potential similar litigation.
> 
> - A conscious decison is made to omit the "DLB" functionality from the HR-Series of DVRs as a way to help keep them "distinquishable" from TiVo systems.
> 
> - DirecTV releases the +Plus Series of SD and HD DVRs.
> 
> - Almost immediately, the "where's the DLB function?" question is raised.
> 
> - For several years the DLB functionality is the most widely sought and hotly debated topic in all of DirecTV forumland. DirecTV is seemingly indifferent to the public demand for this feature.
> 
> - DirecTV changes ownership and a new agreement is signed between DirecTV and TiVO that, among other things, allows each side to freely utilize each others intellectual properties without fear of litigation.
> 
> - Approximately 6 months later "DLB", the most asked for and passionately desired function missing from the DirecTV branded DVRs, makes it's debut in a CE release for the DirecTV HR series of DVRs.
> 
> Coincidence, I think not...


Alas, your information is lacking some key points, which I can't be the one to divulge. Therefore your analysis is not quite accurate either. 

You might consider reviewing the hints in the DLB threads going back more than 2 years. 

Also re-consider the effect of purchasing Replay and _their patent portfolio with the "don't sue each other agreements". _ 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> Roughly 6 months from the agreement extension to the first appearance of a "Tuner Swap" function in a CE release. Timing sounds just about right to me.


Try almost exactly 1 year since the agreement extension was announced:
Sept 03, 2008 - DIRECTV and TiVo to Launch New HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service
Could be the agreement was inked during this same week last year, but certainly the extension wasn't roughly 6 months ago. DoublePlay is just hitting the streets now and while it has taken a long time to come to fruition, it's always been on the table.



> Perhaps not "DLB" in and of itself, but the use of a physical "buffer" for the purpose of "time-shifting" video content certainly is. So any type of buffering functionality would certainly come dangerously close to that concept, especially in the eyes of a patent attourney trying to make sure no infringement claims might be upheld.


Except DIRECTV (via Replay) has same said Patent. Both TiVo and Replay introduced similar Patents at virtually the same time.



> The agreement was much more that just a simple extension. It included the new HDDVR announcement as well as the agreement by both sides not to seek patent infringement action against each other for features included in their respective DVR products.


Yes, it included the announcement of TiVo on the HD DVR platform. A little cooperation on both sides, each with some leverage against the other regarding licensing. DIRECTV puts little effort in and gets subs who want TiVo. TiVo does all of the work and gets additional sales from DIRECTV subs who want TiVo. Potentially a win-win, but TiVo needs volume sales to make it a win-win. DIRECTV likely benefits at a much lower volume of takers.


----------



## Doug Brott

Razorback747 said:


> If anyone ever comes up with a way to convert HR10-250s to MPEG4 I'll be the first to send mine off. I'll give my HR21-100 to my parents. The large size of the osd and the sloooow speed matches them perfectly.


Not going to happen.


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> You could be right, but AUTOCORRECT, another of the patents in question re: AT&T and Verizon, was implemented by DirecTV about 2 years go, way prior to Liberty taking over. I think the right to emulate what TiVo claims is their IP was part of the first agreement that ran through 2010, so DLB's could have been implemented as well back then, if DirecTV chose to do so.
> 
> *7,493,015 B1 ("Automatic Playback Overshoot Correction System")
> *


Correct. It is my understanding the original agreements (which was extended last September) included access to all Patented features.


----------



## ATARI

Razorback747 said:


> If anyone ever comes up with a way to convert HR10-250s to MPEG4 I'll be the first to send mine off. I'll give my HR21-100 to my parents. The large size of the osd and the sloooow speed matches them perfectly.


You'd need a soldering iron and an MPEG-4 capable chipset.

Should be a nice weekend project.


----------



## HRJustin

ATARI said:


> You'd need a soldering iron and an MPEG-4 capable chipset.
> 
> Should be a nice weekend project.


Then figure out how to get the tivo software to even see that chip and find the KA satellites. :lol:


----------



## BattleScott

Doug Brott said:


> Try almost exactly 1 year since the agreement extension was announced:
> Sept 03, 2008 - DIRECTV and TiVo to Launch New HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service
> Could be the agreement was inked during this same week last year, but certainly the extension wasn't roughly 6 months ago. DoublePlay is just hitting the streets now and while it has taken a long time to come to fruition, it's always been on the table.


I said roughly 6 months from the signing of the agreement in September of 08, to the first appearance of the function in a CE relase by April of 09. 
Always been on the table, yet never done. Apparently for some "cloak and dagger" reason that was just too sensitive for public consumption.



Doug Brott said:


> Except DIRECTV (via Replay) has same said Patent. Both TiVo and Replay introduced similar Patents at virtually the same time.


DirecTV did not aquire ReplayTV until long after the introduction of their branded DVRs so that would not have been a factor in the pre-release decision making. Furhtermore, it was pretty much known that their sole interest in ReplayTV was for the patents they held as a security against action from TiVO. Why would they need that if there were not areas of concern?


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> I said roughly 6 months from the signing of the agreement in September of 08, to the first appearance of the function in a CE relase by April of 09.
> Always been on the table, yet never done. Apparently for some "cloak and dagger" reason that was just too sensitive for public consumption.


Yup .. typically companies don't disclose trade secrets, this is no different. Just because it didn't happen in the timetable you wanted does not mean that it's ever left the table.



> DirecTV did not aquire ReplayTV until long after the introduction of their branded DVRs so that would not have been a factor in the pre-release decision making. Furhtermore, it was pretty much known that their sole interest in ReplayTV was for the patents they held as a security against action from TiVO. Why would they need that if there were not areas of concern?


Sure, I think we can all agree that DIRECTV's acquisition of the patents was a strategic move. As we can see with the year-old announcement, it apparently paid off, did it not?

As for areas of concern? DIRECTV had an agreement that already ran through 2010 (I think). DIRECTV was looking towards post-2010.

Oh, and for the record. There isn't a DLB Patent on the books anywhere that I am aware of. The correlation of DLB & the agreement doesn't even come into play.


----------



## BattleScott

Tom Robertson said:


> Alas, your information is lacking some key points, which I can't be the one to divulge. Therefore your analysis is not quite accurate either.


So you have nothing to disprove anything I contend. I doubt my general "analysis" is too far off the mark.



Tom Robertson said:


> You might consider reviewing the hints in the DLB threads going back more than 2 years.


I have reviewed the thread several times. There is nothing of any substance there. The same people who were "in the know" about the inner-workings of the design and decision making process also told us that there would never be another TiVo based receiver.



Tom Robertson said:


> Also re-consider the effect of purchasing Replay and _their patent portfolio with the "don't sue each other agreements". _
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


As stated above, that aquisition was after the fact and would not have had any bearing on the initial design process of the HR series and likely would not have been enough to let them feel safe in adding any questionable features.


----------



## Steve

BattleScott said:


> As stated above, that aquisition was after the fact and would not have had any bearing on the initial design process of the HR series and likely would not have been enough to let them feel safe in adding any questionable features [...]


... except for adding TiVo's patented AUTOCORRECTION in 2007, prior to acquiring the REPLAY patents.


----------



## BattleScott

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. typically companies don't disclose trade secrets, this is no different. Just because it didn't happen in the timetable you wanted does not mean that it's ever left the table.
> 
> *Nope, not even to forum board moderators. Never said it was "off the table", just "never done" for reasons unknown. You may think you know what those are, but I doubt it.
> I don't understand what you mean by "time table I wanted". Are you disputing the 6 month period between agreement extension and CE release?*
> 
> Sure, I think we can all agree that DIRECTV's acquisition of the patents was a strategic move. As we can see with the year-old announcement, it apparently paid off, did it not?
> 
> *What does this have to do with anything I'm talking about? *
> 
> As for areas of concern? DIRECTV had an agreement that already ran through 2010 (I think). DIRECTV was looking towards post-2010.
> 
> *The agreement through 2010 was for support of the TiVo based receivers. There was nothing in that agreement preventing TiVo from coming after DirecTV for infringement after it was over. The "extension" added the "no-litigation" clauses.*
> 
> Oh, and for the record. There isn't a DLB Patent on the books anywhere that I am aware of. The correlation of DLB & the agreement doesn't even come into play.
> *
> This has been discussed already. Dual Buffers is not the issue or the patented process. "Buffering" for the purpose of "time-shifting" is.*


*
Bold/Italic responses by me.*


----------



## Razorback747

ATARI said:


> You'd need a soldering iron and an MPEG-4 capable chipset.
> 
> Should be a nice weekend project.


I'd also need a lot more brains. How about a separate stripped down sports edition HR20. No MRV or online stuff. One with a slo-mo button that works. Maybe FF & RW buttons that actually do something when you press them and a progress bar that doesn't cover 1/5 the screen.


----------



## tthunder38

Razorback747 said:


> I'd also need a lot more brains. How about a separate stripped down sports edition HR20. No MRV or online stuff. One with a slo-mo button that works. Maybe FF & RW buttons that actually do something when you press them and a progress bar that doesn't cover 1/5 the screen.


Amen to that Razorback! And a big War Eagle to ya!


----------



## bobcamp1

Razorback747 said:


> I'd also need a lot more brains. How about a separate stripped down sports edition HR20. No MRV or online stuff. One with a slo-mo button that works. Maybe FF & RW buttons that actually do something when you press them and a progress bar that doesn't cover 1/5 the screen.


Well, the progress bar WAS patented by Tivo....


----------



## Tom Robertson

BattleScott said:


> *The agreement through 2010 was for support of the TiVo based receivers. There was nothing in that agreement preventing TiVo from coming after DirecTV for infringement after it was over. The "extension" added the "no-litigation" clauses.
> *


Since I can be held for the things I can't say, I'm presuming you are willing to prove the things you do say. Kindly show your homework on this statement... 

(And there are 3 claims above. Show homework for all 3.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobcamp1

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, and for the record. There isn't a DLB Patent on the books anywhere that I am aware of. The correlation of DLB & the agreement doesn't even come into play.


Well, it could have been part of the original D*/Tivo agreement, like the Treaty of Algeron. I don't think the Romulans were worried about the Federation violating their cloaking patents, and neither was the Federation. Even though an entire fleet of lawyers is very scary! The Romulans wanted to keep their superiority over the Federation, and the Federation didn't want a war so they agreed.

However, the Klingons use cloaking technology because THEIR agreement with the Romulans allows it. Probably because the Klingons were more powerful at the time than the Federation, or the Klingons had something the Romulans wanted in exchange.

So D* has evolved from the Federation into Klingons via the ReplayTV IPR. And Tivo is Romulan. And Star Trek analogies can solve everything.


----------



## gregjones

BattleScott said:


> Also very interesting that shortly after extending their agreement and both sides agreeing not to pursue such patent infringement actions on each other, DirecTV introduces arguably the most desired and long requested feature not present in their own line of DVRs from their inception.


I agree and pointed it out in another thread.


----------



## loudo

ATARI said:


> You'd need a soldering iron and an MPEG-4 capable chipset.
> 
> Should be a nice weekend project.


While he is at it, he needs to make a change to the looks of the guide. :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> Also very interesting that shortly after extending their agreement and both sides agreeing not to pursue such patent infringement actions on each other, DirecTV introduces arguably the most desired and long requested feature not present in their own line of DVRs from their inception.





BattleScott said:


> Doug Brott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and for the record. There isn't a DLB Patent on the books anywhere that I am aware of. The correlation of DLB & the agreement doesn't even come into play.
> 
> 
> 
> This has been discussed already. Dual Buffers is not the issue or the patented process. "Buffering" for the purpose of "time-shifting" is.
Click to expand...

Actually, I thought that was the whole point of your original argument.

The original agreements gave DIRECTV access to TiVo's Patent library .. All of them, not just the ones DIRECTV chose to implement. The 2008 agreement extended that agreement through 2018. The first agreement with TiVo allowed TiVo to create hardware (DirecTiVo variants and HR10-250), the second agreement kept the non-litigation clause (as far as I can tell), but did not give TiVo access to build hardware for DIRECTV service. The most recent agreement added back the ability for TiVo to build hardware for DIRECTV service.

If you look back, the timing of the previous agreement is about the same time the HR2x was started .. Hmmmm .. now that's probably related and almost certainly due to the dollars involved in that negotiation. Fast Forward to 2008 and DIRECTV is even bigger than before and TiVo is now a shell of itself (in comparison to the first time around). TiVo's back in and (in theory) both DIRECTV and TiVo are happy campers.

So, there really hasn't been a time when DIRECTV didn't have access to the Patents. DIRECTV is one of the few players that has licensed the technology from TiVo. DIRECTV snapped up Replay which helped solidify DIRECTV's position at the negotiating table. Cost DIRECTV $36-Million. Even if DIRECTV never uses a single Patent from that portfolio, it provided sufficient leverage against TiVo as many of the Patents overlap.

So, I guess I don't get it. You originally argued that it was interesting DLB appeared right after the agreement from Sept '08, but tossed that aside and instead arguing that buffering one tuner is why they made the agreement ..

Well, duh! That's what I've been saying as well. But the signing of the agreement had nothing to do with DLB.


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> Since I can be held for the things I can't say, I'm presuming you are willing to prove the things you do say. Kindly show your homework on this statement...
> 
> (And there are 3 claims above. Show homework for all 3.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


If you PM me what you know, I promise not to hold you


----------



## Razorback747

loudo said:


> While he is at it, he needs to make a change to the looks of the guide. :lol:


I use the List Guide on the HR10-250 to find shows to record then go down and set them up on the HR21. It's actually faster and less aggravating that way.


----------



## bonscott87

Razorback747 said:


> I use the List Guide on the HR10-250 to find shows to record then go down and set them up on the HR21. It's actually faster and less aggravating that way.


Ummmmm, ok. Yea, it's faster that way. :lol:

In the HR21 guide have you highlighted the channel number and hit the info button? You can then one touch record very quickly dozens of programs on that channel for the next 2 weeks. MUCH faster then anything you can on a Tivo.

But different strokes for different folks I guess...


----------



## wingrider01

Razorback747 said:


> If anyone ever comes up with a way to convert HR10-250s to MPEG4 I'll be the first to send mine off. I'll give my HR21-100 to my parents. The large size of the osd and the sloooow speed matches them perfectly.


They have, it's called junk it and get a MPEG4 capable box


----------



## Razorback747

bonscott87 said:


> Ummmmm, ok. Yea, it's faster that way. :lol:
> 
> In the HR21 guide have you highlighted the channel number and hit the info button? You can then one touch record very quickly dozens of programs on that channel for the next 2 weeks. MUCH faster then anything you can on a Tivo.
> 
> But different strokes for different folks I guess...


I am familiar with the sequence you are talking about, and the blue "please wait" display that goes with it. If you go to two or three different channels and scan the next twelve hours or so the Tivo is much faster. I know the channels that will probably have something on I want to record and just want to scan them quickly. Don't get me wrong there are some nice things about the D unit like one touch record and quick tune. But the Tivo puts more information on each screen and any screen change or scroll takes forever. And for watching sports the thing is terrible. At least on mine.


----------



## Sixto

The transcript from yesterday's earnings call (8/26/2009):http://seekingalpha.com/article/158...-end-7-31-09-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1​


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> The transcript from yesterday's earnings call (8/26/2009):http://seekingalpha.com/article/158...-end-7-31-09-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1​


Based on that link it seems the DVR is on track for release but it doesn't give a time frame so I guess we'll have to go with what ever we have....1st quarter 2010? was that it.

Thanks for the link Sixto.

Mike


----------



## BattleScott

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, I thought that was the whole point of your original argument.


No, my argument has always been the same. I contend that DirecTV chose not to include a DLB function in the branded DVR line due to fear of potential infringement claims by TiVO of their "Time Warp" patents, not of any specific "DLB" patent. I do not now, nor have I ever stated that I believe that "DLB" is a patented item. I merely suggest that it is a function that is very closely related to that "Time Warp" patent and as such, DirecTV was not willing to take more risk than needed.



Doug Brott said:


> The original agreements gave DIRECTV access to TiVo's Patent library .. All of them, not just the ones DIRECTV chose to implement. The 2008 agreement extended that agreement through 2018. The first agreement with TiVo allowed TiVo to create hardware (DirecTiVo variants and HR10-250), the second agreement kept the non-litigation clause (as far as I can tell), but did not give TiVo access to build hardware for DIRECTV service. The most recent agreement added back the ability for TiVo to build hardware for DIRECTV service.
> 
> If you look back, the timing of the previous agreement is about the same time the HR2x was started .. Hmmmm .. now that's probably related and almost certainly due to the dollars involved in that negotiation. Fast Forward to 2008 and DIRECTV is even bigger than before and TiVo is now a shell of itself (in comparison to the first time around). TiVo's back in and (in theory) both DIRECTV and TiVo are happy campers.
> 
> So, there really hasn't been a time when DIRECTV didn't have access to the Patents. DIRECTV is one of the few players that has licensed the technology from TiVo. DIRECTV snapped up Replay which helped solidify DIRECTV's position at the negotiating table. Cost DIRECTV $36-Million. Even if DIRECTV never uses a single Patent from that portfolio, it provided sufficient leverage against TiVo as many of the Patents overlap.


This is not something I am aware of, and if true, obviously would place my theory in doubt. However, I have never seen anything that indicated DirecTV had licensed any TiVo IP for use in their branded products. I am only aware of the initial generic "non-litigation clauses" introduced in the extension of 2007 after the TiVo supplier agreement ran out. I interpreted this agreement as more of a mutual truce regarding "existing" functionality only, not a license to utilize any and all TiVo IP. Once this agreement was replaced with the current, more "friendly partnership", I believe that a more favorable climate for mutual exchange of IP was created, leading to the ability for DirecTV to feel comfortable in implementing a true, dual tuner, "buffering", DLB solution. 
As for the ReplayTV purchase, that would only seem to make sense if DirecTV DID NOT have access to the TiVO library. Why would they need leverage if they already had usage rights?



Doug Brott said:


> So, I guess I don't get it. You originally argued that it was interesting DLB appeared right after the agreement from Sept '08, but tossed that aside and instead arguing that buffering one tuner is why they made the agreement ..
> Well, duh! That's what I've been saying as well. But the signing of the agreement had nothing to do with DLB.


Again, not so at all. I only argue that the reason DLB was not included from the start, was based on a fear of infringement on the buffering process laid out in the "Time Warp" patent and the desire to not appear "too similar". Remember that the initial design decisions would have been made prior to any IP agreements with TiVO, regardless of what the agreements contained. These decisions would also very likely been based on the expectations of a potentially hostile reaction from TiVO over the decision to drop as their DVR technology supplier. I believe that the DirecTV design utilizing the direct disk access and not a "temporary buffer" as specifically called out in the TiVO patent is what kept the original design "sufficiently different" and therefore a much safer approach in their minds. In my opinion, it was only the latest "re-partnering" agreement that gave them the comfort level they needed to finally implement the DLB functionality.

That is really all I have to say. I can't really summarize my position any more thoroughly. So if after reading it, you still don't think it is a viable possibility, that's fine, I don't really expect you to. But for me, if we are to believe that DirecTV was aware of the popularity of this feature, then this is the only rational explanation I can come up with as to why it was not included initially, and why we have not seen it until now. Otherwise, the explanation is that they simply dropped the ball and it has taken this long to implement the most asked for feature.

That's really all I have to say other than we will just have to agree to disagree and for myself, I promise to never "instigate" this discussion again...


----------



## DarinC

Razorback747 said:


> Don't get me wrong there are some nice things about the D unit ...


I've been fairly vocal about my disapointment with the HR2x units, but I will agree with that point: there _are _some features on the HR2x I like. It's just that IMO, from an overall usability, reliability, and performance aspect, the HR2x is sub-par for _real _day to day use. It would be nice if the upcoming TiVo unit for DirecTV merged the best of both, but I'll be happy if it's just a TiVo. My biggest concern, however, is that although I haven't really followed this thread completley, I know there was some conjecture that it might just be a TiVo feature set on top of the existing HR2x boxes. If that's the case, I'm not convinced the existing hardware has the HP to provide the performance we'd really like to see. And is this going to be a _complete _software/firmware rewrite by TiVo, or is it going to be TiVo functionality added via software on top of an underlying DirecTV written OS? There's still a lot left to be seen to determine how much premium I'm willing to pay for it.


----------



## lee78221

From Tivocommunity.com



bkdtv said:


> On CNBC this morning, Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) said the new DirecTiVo was "on track for early 2010." [Source]


Thanks bkdtv.


----------



## dhines

anyone care to translate all this bickering to english? will the DLB be coming to the D* DVR's?


----------



## lee78221

dhines said:


> anyone care to translate all this bickering to english? will the DLB be coming to the D* DVR's?


Yes, it's in the process of rolling out.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=163484


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> That's really all I have to say other than we will just have to agree to disagree and for myself, I promise to never "instigate" this discussion again...


healthy debate is always good .. nothing wrong here ..


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> This is not something I am aware of, and if true, obviously would place my theory in doubt. However, I have never seen anything that indicated DirecTV had licensed any TiVo IP for use in their branded products.


It is my understanding that this is true, yes. Something I learned about 2½ years back, months before I even became a mod here.


----------



## Tom Robertson

BattleScott said:


> ...
> This is not something I am aware of, and if true, obviously would place my theory in doubt. However, I have never seen anything that indicated DirecTV had licensed any TiVo IP for use in their branded products. I am only aware of the initial generic "non-litigation clauses" introduced in the extension of 2007 after the TiVo supplier agreement ran out. I interpreted this agreement as more of a mutual truce regarding "existing" functionality only, not a license to utilize any and all TiVo IP. Once this agreement was replaced with the current, more "friendly partnership", I believe that a more favorable climate for mutual exchange of IP was created, leading to the ability for DirecTV to feel comfortable in implementing a true, dual tuner, "buffering", DLB solution.


Unless you have seen the whole of the contracts or know people who have, it can be dangerous to assume too much based on what little is publicly released. 


BattleScott said:


> As for the ReplayTV purchase, that would only seem to make sense if DirecTV DID NOT have access to the TiVO library. Why would they need leverage if they already had usage rights?


I've wondered that too. And it wasn't until you asked this that a thought popped up.

Perhaps (and this is truly guessing on my part, no hints here), DIRECTV picked up the rights as a straightforward IP protection play (actually that part isn't so much a guess as that is what Chase himself basically told me.) Perhaps as DIRECTV continued to talk with TiVo about opportunities, the RePlay purchase gave DIRECTV a bit of leverage to work out the current new deal that was more balanced as wins for both companies?

Could it be that now that TiVo had a "weakened" position, they negotiated what I suspect is a good deal all around rather than trying to be too pricey?

Now, I admit, I could be way off. Perhaps other forces combined lead both companies to find (what I think/hope) is a great deal. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

Tom Robertson said:


> Unless you have seen the whole of the contracts or know people who have, it can be dangerous to assume too much based on what little is publicly released. I've wondered that too. And it wasn't until you asked this that a thought popped up.
> 
> Perhaps (and this is truly guessing on my part, no hints here), DIRECTV picked up the rights as a straightforward IP protection play (actually that part isn't so much a guess as that is what Chase himself basically told me.) Perhaps as DIRECTV continued to talk with TiVo about opportunities, the RePlay purchase gave DIRECTV a bit of leverage to work out the current new deal that was more balanced as wins for both companies?
> 
> Could it be that now that TiVo had a "weakened" position, they negotiated what I suspect is a good deal all around rather than trying to be too pricey?
> 
> Now, I admit, I could be way off. Perhaps other forces combined lead both companies to find (what I think/hope) is a great deal.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I hope they also did it tot get some off their capability and GUI setups into our systems! n Its amazing, Repalytv is by far the best dvr ever made, even with 5 year old software compared to any dvr out today, including all Tivos, but so few people know that. Everyone always thinks Tivo is the end all.. Goes to show you what Marketing and money mean in this world. Ir replaytv had money early on, there would be no Tivo today, because it would not have been able to compete.


----------



## kiljoy

I've had my old DVR-80s switched out for HR22s now for a month and I still have to say that as soon as the TiVo unit comes out I'm switching--though not for the reasons I would've guessed.

My apprehension mostly stemmed from the incorrect belief that the HR2x would be unreliable so in prepping the house for HD I made sure that I'd have a spec install. Everything from 3GHz barrels in the wallplates to all-new coax and only DirecTV-approved equipment from dish to boxes. I can say that thus far the HR22s have operated as designed (with one exception: the main one does not respond to remote commands for about ten minutes after going to it. I can use the front panel and the remote functions will come back, but I have to wait. It's probably due to having the ethernet hooked up, but the other has no issues.)

Still, even though it's a capable box in a lot of ways, the reason I can't wait to switch is that it doesn't embrace its "DVR-ness" like a TiVo does. TiVo changed the way I consume television. Never watching live, never using the guide (ever), never worrying about whether something will record, and never babysitting. The DirecTV DVR is a very good DVR, but it's not something that will change how you do things. I'm now expected to know when something's on and on what channel. Search isn't as good and doesn't do wishlists as simply (though the true test will be during UK basketball season). The worst problem is one I didn't expect: I miss Suggestions. I liked having my TiVo always full of stuff I'd probably want to see. Now, since I don't have time to peruse the guide for stuff my DVR sits mostly empty, and the list-style guide is useless for looking for something I might want to see later or might not want to see at all.

I don't want to knock the HR2x though, it's a powerful unit that is obviously being continuously improved and is easily something I'd recommend to others if their needs fit. What I want though isn't a really good recording device, what I want is something that grows to personalize itself to my tastes. The TiVo units do this well, that's why they got the fanbase they did. I'm glad I've used the HR2x, but more importantly I'm glad that I won't have to for very long.

Tony


----------



## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> Still, even though it's a capable box in a lot of ways, the reason I can't wait to switch is that it doesn't embrace its "DVR-ness" like a TiVo does. TiVo changed the way I consume television. Never watching live, never using the guide (ever), never worrying about whether something will record, and never babysitting.


I don't ever watch live TV, rarely use the guide, never worry about if something to record and never babysit either of my HR2x units. What problems are you having that cause you to have to do these things? Perhaps because you're still trying to do things "the Tivo way". I went thru this after using Tivo's for 6 years and then going to the HR20. It will pass. 



> The DirecTV DVR is a very good DVR, but it's not something that will change how you do things. I'm now expected to know when something's on and on what channel.


Why is that? I've got dozens of season passes just like I did on Tivo and I have no idea what day or time any of the shows are on. Nothing any different with the HR2x.



> Search isn't as good and doesn't do wishlists as simply (though the true test will be during UK basketball season).


Depends on what you want to search on. I've got an autorecord search that snags all Red Wings games just fine.



> The worst problem is one I didn't expect: I miss Suggestions. I liked having my TiVo always full of stuff I'd probably want to see. Now, since I don't have time to peruse the guide for stuff my DVR sits mostly empty, and the list-style guide is useless for looking for something I might want to see later or might not want to see at all.


Well, I know suggestions was the first thing I turned off on any Tivo unit I've ever owned. It was one of the most annoying things. But others like yourself liked it, nothing wrong with that. Both my HR2x's usually sit nearly 80% full all the time. I've got so much to watch I don't have the time to do it all.

Perhaps start a new thread with your concerns you listed here and we can help you use your HR2x better. There is certainly an adjustment coming from Tivo, I had one.


----------



## Syzygy

BattleScott said:


> ... I believe that a more favorable climate for mutual exchange of IP was created, leading to the ability for DirecTV to feel comfortable in implementing a *true*, dual tuner, "buffering", DLB solution....


I can accept everything you've said as a likely sequence of events at DirecTV. But please, _please_ don't call DoublePlay a *true* dual tuner DLB solution. It would be such *if* the background buffer were always there, as it is with TiVos. When using a TiVo, you can press the down arrow or LiveTV at any time to switch to the live buffer attached to the alternate tuner, and find up to a half hour of buffered material. That's the *only* thing I want to do with the down arrow. (I don't want to watch two events simultaneously, switching back and forth between them.)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This isn't really the place for a DLB discussion but... I have not seen anything like an IEEE or ISO paper on DLB so in their absence I don't think it's fair to say that DoublePlay isn't DLB. You can say that DIRECTV's DoublePlay has some features that TiVo doesn't, and vice versa. However, to crown one the true and only holder of the DLB crown, I think that's misleading. 

DIRECTV DVRs are not TiVo, and TiVo is not a DIRECTV DVR. The feature sets overlap but both have unique features. Some people will like one, some will like the other. Is that so hard to admit?


----------



## Syzygy

inkahauts said:


> ... If ReplayTV had money early on, there would be no TiVo today, because it would not have been able to compete.


Early on, ReplayTV had sound and picture quality that was inferior to TiVo's, they didn't support Closed Captioning at all, and ReplayTV's failure rate was higher. These are some of the reasons why, in August 1999, I chose TiVo.

ReplayTV is fondly remembered for its Commercial Skip feature, which got it into a lot of legal hot water and may have led to its demise.


----------



## Richierich

inkahauts said:


> Everyone always thinks Tivo is the end all.. Goes to show you what Marketing and Money mean in this world.


I don't AGREE with you about the Marketing and Money Aspect of this argument because I bought TiVo because of it's Simplicity, Great Functionality and it Actually Works without your having to be a Technical Electronic Gadget Guru!!!

Because it worked so well and so easily is why a lot of people especially women like it so much and hate to part with it. It has nothing at all to do with Marketing and Money but Functionality and Ease Of Use.


----------



## David Ortiz

Syzygy said:


> Early on, ReplayTV had sound and picture quality that was inferior to TiVo's, they didn't support Closed Captioning at all, and ReplayTV's failure rate was higher. These are some of the reasons why, in August 1999, I chose TiVo.
> 
> ReplayTV is fondly remembered for its Commercial Skip feature, which got it into a lot of legal hot water and may have led to its demise.


My first DVR was a Replay unit and I got it because its highest quality was better than TiVo's. What attracted me to TiVo finally was that the units that worked with DIRECTV recorded the raw stream, so there was no degradation.


----------



## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> Early on, ReplayTV had sound and picture quality that was inferior to TiVo's, they didn't support Closed Captioning at all, and ReplayTV's failure rate was higher. These are some of the reasons why, in August 1999, I chose TiVo.
> 
> ReplayTV is fondly remembered for its Commercial Skip feature, which got it into a lot of legal hot water and may have led to its demise.


Commercial skip came years after its introduction, and was the one thing that started to bring them back after already losing market share to tivo...

Replaytv had the exact same settings for quality that Tivo did, and was very hi quality. The only place it was different is if you where hooking it up to Directv units vs the Directv Tivos. Those however, did not come until after Tivo and Replay had been out for a while. As for CC, I don't recall that really being an issue. And I'd love to see your proof on the higher failure rate, seeing I sold both Tivo and Replaytvs starting the day they came out, and we had basically the same amount of each have issues.. And my Replaytvs still work today....


----------



## inkahauts

richierich said:


> I don't AGREE with you about the Marketing and Money Aspect of this argument because I bought TiVo because of it's Simplicity, Great Functionality and it Actually Works without your having to be a Technical Electronic Gadget Guru!!!
> 
> Because it worked so well and so easily is why a lot of people especially women like it so much and hate to part with it. It has nothing at all to do with Marketing and Money but Functionality and Ease Of Use.


Have you ever owned a replaytv?


----------



## Razorback747

Quote:
Search isn't as good and doesn't do wishlists as simply (though the true test will be during UK basketball season).

Depends on what you want to search on. I've got an autorecord search that snags all Red Wings games just fine.

Do you also get a bunch of channels you don't receive in the search?


----------



## bonscott87

Razorback747 said:


> Do you also get a bunch of channels you don't receive in the search?


No. I limit the search to a range of channels. Easy as pie with the CCHAN operator. In some cases CCHAN won't work but for most that I've seen it works just fine and makes the complaint about channels you don't receive moot. Just depends on what you're recording and on what channels.

For my Red Wings I do CCHAN 604 664 which will catch any games on Vs. and my RSN and RSN alternate. Only thing it won't get is my local channel which has maybe 2 games a year. I'll do those manually.


----------



## dhines

lee78221 said:


> Yes, it's in the process of rolling out.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=163484


outstanding . . . . thanks.


----------



## Syzygy

inkahauts said:


> As for CC, I don't recall that really being an issue. And I'd love to see your proof on the higher failure rate, seeing I sold both Tivo and Replaytvs starting the day they came out, and we had basically the same amount of each have issues.. And my Replaytvs still work today....


It's really true: ReplayTV didn't support Closed Captioning at all, at least in 1999.

As for your having sold both TiVo and ReplayTV starting the day they came out, I wonder how that could be. For the first few months, in the spring and summer of 1999, TiVos could be obtained only directly from TiVo Inc. (which is where I had to buy my 14-hour SA TiVo, for $500).


----------



## kiljoy

bonscott87 said:


> I don't ever watch live TV, rarely use the guide, never worry about if something to record and never babysit either of my HR2x units. What problems are you having that cause you to have to do these things? Perhaps because you're still trying to do things "the Tivo way". I went thru this after using Tivo's for 6 years and then going to the HR20. It will pass.


Right now the "babysitting" is mostly due to there not being new things I want to watch. I don't consume a lot of television, really. So right now just to have something to turn on I have to set up a lot of Series Links that I don't have interest in recording all the time. I don't think I ever had more than 20 Season Passes before, and this season I can only think of maybe ten things I really care about seeing.


> Why is that? I've got dozens of season passes just like I did on Tivo and I have no idea what day or time any of the shows are on. Nothing any different with the HR2x.


I think it's because of the fact that again, nothing is first-run, so in order to fill space I have to troll through the guide. The guide to me is extremely frustrating.


> Depends on what you want to search on. I've got an autorecord search that snags all Red Wings games just fine.


I've heard the autorecords on sports in particular are pretty good on the HR2x and I'm excited to see it in action. This was one area where I could never leave TiVo to its own devices. UK only plays in four (maybe five now with HD) places: Fox Sports South prior to conference play, Fox Sports Cincinnati during conference play, CBS, and ESPN. I don't get FSS HD in my package but do get FSCin HD. I've set up a boolean string for it, once the season starts I'll tweak. As I said, though, I think this is where the HR2x will really shine.


> Well, I know suggestions was the first thing I turned off on any Tivo unit I've ever owned. It was one of the most annoying things. But others like yourself liked it, nothing wrong with that. Both my HR2x's usually sit nearly 80% full all the time. I've got so much to watch I don't have the time to do it all.


I never filled my DVR-80s, I'm not going to get close on my HR22s. There are probably only ten things I want to watch this season that I can think of off the top of my head (House, Stargate:Universe, Office, Earl, Community, Better Off Ted, Simpsons, American Dad, Family Guy, & UK basketball) so I really benefit from the suggestions filling up space. I watch my "must-see" TV right away, so unless there's a repository of things to watch, I'm stuck with nothing.

TDS and TCR I record but seldom watch, so it was nice to not have to set up something for Futurama, the older Stargates, the Star Treks, stuff that I can't really think of but when I need to eat a pizza I might want to have on to pass the time.


> Perhaps start a new thread with your concerns you listed here and we can help you use your HR2x better. There is certainly an adjustment coming from Tivo, I had one.


Nah, I lurked for a long while and was active asking questions for a while after that. I knew what I was getting into. Like I said, I think it's a great device. I'd easily recommend it to people who like to tinker and have a lot of arcane features. I think it's especially good for the couch potato or the surfer, much better than TiVo in fact. But it's not something I'd recommend to my mother and it really doesn't fit my lifestyle that well. Still, I really like it and I think side-by-side with a TiVo device it really makes going with DirecTV for HD a no-brainer for anyone with the ability to get it.

Tony


----------



## StephenT

bonscott87 said:


> No. I limit the search to a range of channels. Easy as pie with the CCHAN operator. In some cases CCHAN won't work but for most that I've seen it works just fine and makes the complaint about channels you don't receive moot. Just depends on what you're recording and on what channels.
> 
> For my Red Wings I do CCHAN 604 664 which will catch any games on Vs. and my RSN and RSN alternate. Only thing it won't get is my local channel which has maybe 2 games a year. I'll do those manually.


This may be off topic, but you and kiljoy may find this interesting.

When I'm looking to record sports (Pens and Steelers in my case) I set up a search on each channel individually with the CCHAN feature. So in the case of the Pens, one for FSN Pittsburgh, one for VS, one for NHL Network, and one for DC's Comcast SportsNet because I live in that area and when the Pens play the Caps it will be blacked out on all but that channel (I have NHLCI). So I have four separate Pens searches ranked in the prioritizer with the possibly blacked out channels ranked lower (CSN is ranked highest because if the Pens are on it I have to watch it there).

If the same game is on multiple channels, it will only record one. It usually is the highest priority search, but I think it sometimes depends on which channel gets the game in its guide data first. Regardless the game will be found by the blackout search thing if it tries to record a blacked out channel. I guess technically I could record the FSN and VS only since they show every game, and if they are blacked out it will jump to NHLN or CSN on its own.

The individual channel thing prevents me from having a range in the RSN's or 700 NHLCI channels that will not insure I get the home team coverage. If I force it to FSNP I can't ever accidentally record the away team's broadcast.

The CCHAN search feature is the one thing on the HRs I like over my old TiVo. Sure my one channel search takes a little time to set up, but once it's done, it's flawless.

Oh I also add the LIVE tag so it doesn't record reruns of the games on the RSNs.


----------



## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> I never filled my DVR-80s, I'm not going to get close on my HR22s. There are probably only ten things I want to watch this season that I can think of off the top of my head (House, Stargate:Universe, Office, Earl, Community, Better Off Ted, Simpsons, American Dad, Family Guy, & UK basketball) so I really benefit from the suggestions filling up space. I watch my "must-see" TV right away, so unless there's a repository of things to watch, I'm stuck with nothing.


Couple suggestions for you:
1) If there are favorite actors or keywords you might like you can set up autorecords for those. Might run into the channels i get thing with these though unless you limit the channel range.

2) Have you tried the online guide? You can rate programs there and it will give you suggestions of programs you might like, kinda like at Netflix. You can then choose things to record on your DVR right there on the web site. So if you're board at work surf this and set a bunch of things that interest you to record. I know it's not the same thing but I find it much better then Tivo suggestions ever were for me. Then again Tivo suggestions were always terrible for me thus why I turned them off. But it might help fill the gap for you somewhat.

Good luck!


----------



## bonscott87

StephenT said:


> This may be off topic, but you and kiljoy may find this interesting.
> 
> When I'm looking to record sports (Pens and Steelers in my case) I set up a search on each channel individually with the CCHAN feature. So in the case of the Pens, one for FSN Pittsburgh, one for VS, one for NHL Network, and one for DC's Comcast SportsNet because I live in that area and when the Pens play the Caps it will be blacked out on all but that channel (I have NHLCI). So I have four separate Pens searches ranked in the prioritizer with the possibly blacked out channels ranked lower (CSN is ranked highest because if the Pens are on it I have to watch it there).
> 
> If the same game is on multiple channels, it will only record one. It usually is the highest priority search, but I think it sometimes depends on which channel gets the game in its guide data first. Regardless the game will be found by the blackout search thing if it tries to record a blacked out channel. I guess technically I could record the FSN and VS only since they show every game, and if they are blacked out it will jump to NHLN or CSN on its own.
> 
> The individual channel thing prevents me from having a range in the RSN's or 700 NHLCI channels that will not insure I get the home team coverage. If I force it to FSNP I can't ever accidentally record the away team's broadcast.
> 
> The CCHAN search feature is the one thing on the HRs I like over my old TiVo. Sure my one channel search takes a little time to set up, but once it's done, it's flawless.
> 
> Oh I also add the LIVE tag so it doesn't record reruns of the games on the RSNs.


I do much of the same thing. They key to a good sports search is to know your guide data well for the teams you're trying to record.

My search is this:

AALL RED WINGS LIVE NNOT POST CCHAN 603 664

Note the Red Wings pre and post games shows are called "Red Wings Live". So this search grabs all live games, ignores the reruns. Also snags the pre game show BUT ignores the post game show which I don't want. Also will pick up Vs. and my RSN. Since games on never on both I don't have to worry about separate searches for different channels.

In fact I often just use this as a "saved search" and not an autorecord. Once every two weeks I just run the search and one touch record the games I want. This also then reminds me when the games are on.  Works great.


----------



## Nicholsen

"AALL RED WINGS LIVE NNOT POST CCHAN 603 664"

Scott, I hope you intended your post to be funny.

The HRxx still can't figure out what channels it receives (after 2 years of purported software "upgrades") and you suggest we should all master a special boolean search language (on a remote control with no letter keys no less) in order to do a simple programming search to watch hockey. :lol:

We could all program our requests in machine language or assembler as well, but we don't, for good reasons.

It seems there is no flaw in the HRxx boxes you aren't willing to overlook as "no big deal." Maybe your standards for electronics are just really low. Personally, I look forward to having a product that actually works.


----------



## Bizarroterl

Nicholsen said:


> "AALL RED WINGS LIVE NNOT POST CCHAN 603 664"
> 
> Scott, I hope you intended your post to be funny.
> 
> The HRxx still can't figure out what channels it receives (after 2 years of purported software "upgrades") and you suggest we should all master a special boolean search language (on a remote control with no letter keys no less) in order to do a simple programming search to watch hockey. :lol:
> 
> We could all program our requests in machine language or assembler as well, but we don't, for good reasons.
> 
> It seems there is no flaw in the HRxx boxes you aren't willing to overlook as "no big deal." Maybe your standards for electronics are just really low. Personally, I look forward to having a product that actually works.


Based on how Directv has set this as a priority we should see the fix any millenia now.


----------



## Steve

Nicholsen said:


> Personally, I look forward to having a product that actually works.


I think Scott's SEARCH proves the device works. 

Your point is well-taken, tho. To enable an average, non-technical user to construct AUTORECORDS of that specificity, a simpler and more intuitive SEARCH front end or wizard needs to be in place.


----------



## Syzygy

Nicholsen said:


> ... It seems there is no flaw in the HRxx boxes you [bonscott87] aren't willing to overlook as "no big deal."


Agreed.


----------



## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> It's really true: ReplayTV didn't support Closed Captioning at all, at least in 1999.
> 
> As for your having sold both TiVo and ReplayTV starting the day they came out, I wonder how that could be. For the first few months, in the spring and summer of 1999, TiVos could be obtained only directly from TiVo Inc. (which is where I had to buy my 14-hour SA TiVo, for $500).


Replaytv was in stores first. Tivo followed shortly there after, and I was at one of the first retailers to carry them. I worked for Good Guys back then. We always got new products ahead of some of the competition, because we where known for better educating the custoerms and up selling. Circut City got them shortly after we did.... That was so long ago, I do not recall if they where available for a short time from Tvio before they hit our shelves, they may have been, but as soon as they where launched to retailers, we had them. We also had DIrectivos as soon as they hit retailer as well.. Not sure why your nitpicking on a month or two of direct sales... I was there for the start.

And I think we can all agree, that all units from Tivo and Replaytv changed dramatically between 1999 and 2002... The first three years saw lots of changes and advancements in firmwares on both sides.. Heck, tivo didn't even have dual tuners in Directvivos for many many months after they first hit the markets. So Not having CC on the first release is not at all surprising.. I will check latter on today on my old Replaytv ( I need to get ready to use it! I have an uncle who needs a DVR.. And it will be perfect for his situation)

Its unfortunate you never actually owned a ReplayTV... There search system and the way they allowed you to create recordings and "wishlists" was so much better than anything I have used to this day... Amazing considering that was 9 years ago that system was first introduced, and is still more than viable against todays machines. About the only thing Tivo has for searching that I really like is swivel search.. That is cool, and I hope others get it soon...

Check out this thread to see some of the gui setup from a RepalyTV... (This is not a first generation system, however, the search mechanism is basically the same as the first gen units.. The Playlist area is similar, but more advanced... Still about 5 years old at this point)


----------



## inkahauts

bonscott87 said:


> Couple suggestions for you:
> 1) If there are favorite actors or keywords you might like you can set up autorecords for those. Might run into the channels i get thing with these though unless you limit the channel range.


I actually created multiple Boolean searches for ARSLs for my mom on one of her machine, and it records all kinds of movies for her that she likes to watch... I basically set them to ALL MOVIES HDTV CCHAN xxx xxx & ...........

and then used the cat and sub cat to narrow down the genres.. It works fantastic, and is better than tivo suggestions for her because it is a more specific scope, and she ends up with fat less stuff where you are left scratching your head...


----------



## Razorback747

Nicholsen said:


> "AALL RED WINGS LIVE NNOT POST CCHAN 603 664"
> 
> Scott, I hope you intended your post to be funny.
> 
> The HRxx still can't figure out what channels it receives (after 2 years of purported software "upgrades") and you suggest we should all master a special boolean search language (on a remote control with no letter keys no less) in order to do a simple programming search to watch hockey. :lol:
> 
> We could all program our requests in machine language or assembler as well, but we don't, for good reasons.
> 
> It seems there is no flaw in the HRxx boxes you aren't willing to overlook as "no big deal." Maybe your standards for electronics are just really low. Personally, I look forward to having a product that actually works.


Well put
I think "Channels I Get" is working exactly as they want.
A constant reminder of the channels you could *purchase*.


----------



## Nicholsen

Steve said:


> I think Scott's SEARCH proves the device works.
> 
> Your point is well-taken, tho. To enable an average, non-technical user to construct AUTORECORDS of that specificity, a simpler and more intuitive SEARCH front end or wizard needs to be in place.


I must tip my hat to the logic of your post.

I may sometimes be wrong, but I am never in doubt.


----------



## celticpride

when i bought my 1st directv tivo back in 1999,in the fall i got mine for $99.00 at circuit city,my wife loved it so much ,she had me go back the next day and buy one for the tv in our bed room while they were on sale. at the time of purchase the tivos only had 1 tuner activated,and like the CC salesman promised, the 2nd tuner was activated a week later,the picture was so clear and being able to record on 2 tuners was a godsend!!. i cant wait for the D* tivos to arrive! about 2 weeks ago i decided i wanted to watch ,reruns of everybody loves raymond so i did a search on my HR22-100 using the actors last name romano,under all catagories and the only thing my dvr found was ice age! plus i recorded 6 episodes of the closer on tnt and it deleted 3 of the episides the next day even though i still had 68% space avaiable. so even though the D* dvrs have improved some ,they still need some fine tuning.


----------



## inkahauts

Razorback747 said:


> Well put
> I think "Channels I Get" is working exactly as they want.
> A constant reminder of the channels you could *purchase*.


I disagree... They have searches set to use all channels.. ARSL and guide use CIG.. I think they want CIG to work right, but search terms will never use it.. that is by design, obviously...


----------



## Syzygy

inkahauts said:


> I disagree... They have searches set to use all channels.. ARSL and guide use CIG...


The use of the term ARSL (what _is_ that?) is misleading. Autorecordings based on searches do *not* use CIG. And a _CCHAN <first> <last> _clause at the end of a search expression works only when desired channels are contiguous. Counterexample: MGMHD, which most of us don't get, is in the middle of a series of interesting channels that we _do_ get.


----------



## DogLover

Syzygy said:


> The use of the term ARSL (what _is_ that?) is misleading. Autorecordings based on searches do *not* use CIG. And a _CCHAN <first> <last> _clause at the end of a search expression works only when desired channels are contiguous. Counterexample: MGMHD, which most of us don't get, is in the middle of a series of interesting channels that we _do_ get.


Actually Autorecordings based on searches (ARSL or autorecord series link) *do* use CIG.


----------



## Syzygy

Oops, sorry, *inkahauts *and *DogLover*. I completely forgot that CIG is an almost completely useless pile of channels, some of which you don't really get and some of which are PPV and VOD channels. But I'm still going to test the assertion that ARSLs use CIG. Be back soon.

[edit] Well, I'm back. You guys are right, Autorecordings based on searches *do *use CIG. That's the "good" news. The bad news is that CIG includes CIDG, PPV & VOD. Autorecordings include CIDG & PPV but not (thankfully) VOD.

I Autorecorded the keyword DUPLICITY and had the PPV movie (ch 128) added to my To Do List. Of course I quickly cancelled the entire Autorecord request.


----------



## Razorback747

I'm simple minded. When I look for a sports event I just want to see the channels I am getting now. If I want to go to "All Channels" to see if there is a sports package or something I want to buy I can do so. Seems like a simple request to me.


----------



## Sixto

DirecTV FCC Comments related to TiVo:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7020036848​
The referenced TiVo Filing:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7019933919​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Related to TiVo:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7020036848​


The "soon" statement / reference to the Tivo-based unit was "interesting"...

But then...that's a popular term.


----------



## kevinwmsn

soon is our favorite word on this site.


----------



## Brennok

Hmm that link isn't working for me. It just keeps trying to download a cgi file.

EDIT: NVM worked in IE for me. Not sure why Firefox is trying to download it.


----------



## lee78221

Sixto said:


> Related to TiVo:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7020036848​


The filing is in response to comments filed by TiVo, Inc.

Can anyone help me find Tivos filing?


----------



## jfalkingham

this may be helpful

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/csrptpg.html


----------



## Sixto

lee78221 said:


> The filing is in response to comments filed by TiVo, Inc.
> 
> Can anyone help me find Tivos filing?


The referenced TiVo Filing:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7019933919​


----------



## lee78221

jfalkingham said:


> this may be helpful
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/csrptpg.html





Sixto said:


> The referenced TiVo Filing:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7019933919​


Thanks both of you for the help.:goodjob:


----------



## Shades228

Well thsoe filings clearly indicate a new box will be out so it appears I was wrong as of now. We'll see if they also have the software solution for existing receivers or not when it launches.


----------



## lee78221

I wondering(Looking at Tivo filings) why they would bring DBS into their cable fight. If they're trying to rebuild their relationship with DirecTV couldn't this be seen as stepping on DirecTVs toes?


----------



## Shades228

lee78221 said:


> I wondering(Looking at Tivo filings) why they would bring DBS into their cable fight. If they're trying to rebuild their relationship with DirecTV couldn't this be seen at stepping on DirecTVs toes?


I would guess that they are trying to show that the business model can work effectively if done correctly.


----------



## lee78221

Shades228 said:


> I would guess that they are trying to show that the business model can work effectively if done correctly.


And which business model would that be?


----------



## Earlyadopt

I just don't want it to have any of the ads that my Tivo Series II currently has.


----------



## inkahauts

Earlyadopt said:


> I just don't want it to have any of the ads that my Tivo Series II currently has.


Then I'm betting you shouldn't get one...


----------



## trainman

Earlyadopt said:


> I just don't want it to have any of the ads that my Tivo Series II currently has.


The DirecTiVo units always had fewer ads than the standalones, but never zero. The ads seen on the DirecTiVos were various advertiser-supported Showcases (easy enough to ignore) and one "gold star" item on the main menu (harder to ignore).

Only time will tell if, and by how much, DirecTV's agreement with TiVo limits advertising on the new DirecTiVos.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

All I can tell you is that the few times I've played with a standalone TiVo in the last couple of years I've been amazed by the ad content. I know I've said it before but I just am not going to buy a pizza with my remote.


----------



## RCY

Sixto said:


> DirecTV FCC Comments related to TiVo:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7020036848​
> The referenced TiVo Filing:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7019933919​


The FCC should mandate that all DBS companies provide CableCard support.

I'd like to see many companies (DirectTv, Echostar/Dish, Moxi, Tivo, etc.) be able to offer DVRs that work on any cable/dbs setup. For DBS customers (including me a D* sub) this would mean more competition in the DVR arena, which would be good for everyone.


----------



## BattleScott

RCY said:


> The FCC should mandate that all DBS companies provide CableCard support.
> 
> I'd like to see many companies (DirectTv, Echostar/Dish, Moxi, Tivo, etc.) be able to offer DVRs that work on any cable/dbs setup. For DBS customers (including me a D* sub) this would mean more competition in the DVR arena, which would be good for everyone.


If cable and DBS used the same distribution methods, then that might work, but a typical DBS receiver in not capable of tuning digital cable frequencies and visa-versa. 
For that to work, the devices would have to be built to function in multiple system environments making them much more expensive to start with.


----------



## Steve

BattleScott said:


> If cable and DBS used the same distribution methods, then that might work, but a typical DBS receiver in not capable of tuning digital cable frequencies and visa-versa.
> For that to work, the devices would have to be built to function in multiple system environments making them much more expensive to start with.


Exactly. Same with IP-delivered content, like U-verse.

Sounds to me like TiVo is lobbying the FCC to make their lives easier by forcing distributors to adapt unsuited technologies to the Cablecard paradigm, instead of engineering new boxes that work with the different distribution technologies, like the DirecTiVo's.


----------



## RCY

Steve said:


> Exactly. Same with IP-delivered content, like U-verse.
> 
> Sounds to me like TiVo is lobbying the FCC to make their lives easier by forcing distributors to adapt unsuited technologies to the Cablecard paradigm, instead of engineering new boxes that work with the different distribution technologies, like the DirecTiVo's.


And it would make the lives of consumers easier by offering them multiple choices of DVR instead of whatever Dish or DirectTV decides to allow to be developed on their proprietary platforms.


----------



## RCY

BattleScott said:


> If cable and DBS used the same distribution methods, then that might work, but a typical DBS receiver in not capable of tuning digital cable frequencies and visa-versa.
> For that to work, the devices would have to be built to function in multiple system environments making them much more expensive to start with.


No doubt this is a "next-generation" kind of device. But if you give DBS companies a free pass, it'll never happen. Start planning a solution.

I realize I'm dreaming and it will never happen. But it's my dream.


----------



## RCY

Steve said:


> Exactly. Same with IP-delivered content, like U-verse.
> 
> Sounds to me like TiVo is lobbying the FCC to make their lives easier by forcing distributors to adapt unsuited technologies to the Cablecard paradigm, instead of engineering new boxes that work with the different distribution technologies, like the DirecTiVo's.


And it sounds like to me that DirectTv is looking to keep control of competition in its DVR business.

What Tivo is proposing invites Moxi and other DVR makers to the party as well.


----------



## gregjones

CableCard was pushed through because in most localities, the cable company has a monopoly. This presented an issue with the cable company dictating all of the hardware. Dish and DirecTV are not monopolies and therefore represent a different model entirely.


----------



## RCY

gregjones said:


> CableCard was pushed through because in most localities, the cable company has a monopoly. This presented an issue with the cable company dictating all of the hardware. Dish and DirecTV are not monopolies and therefore represent a different model entirely.


Very, very few cable customers are limited to cable as their only choice. Most have DirectTv, Dish, Uverse, FIOS, etc. as an option.

The FCC should be looking out for the interests of consumers. To me, more choice in the DVR market would be good for consumers.


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> And it sounds like to me that DirectTv is looking to keep control of competition in its DVR business.


By working with TiVo again now, as they have in the past? If the new DirecTiVo is not going to be a different box, it will at least be a DVR UI choice for DirecTV subscribers.

All I'm saying is that in regard to Cablecard, I don't believe TiVo's motives are entirely altruistic. If it was up to them, I'm sure they would like to be the only consumer choice in town, which is perfectly understandable. In the meantime, if program delivery technology changes, they should adapt their boxes rather than try to bog down new delivery technologies by forcing backward compatibility with out of date standards. Just my .02.


----------



## RCY

Steve said:


> ...
> All I'm saying is that in regard to Cablecard, I don't believe TiVo's motives are entirely altruistic. If it was up to them, I'm sure they would like to be the only consumer choice in town, which is perfectly understandable...


I agree completely, Tivo's motives are not pure. But wouldn't you agree that a company like Moxi would have the same opportunity to enter the market if Tivo gets what they asked for? In fact, wouldn't it allow DirectTV to come up with an HR2x that would work with any cable service?


----------



## gregjones

RCY said:


> Very, very few cable customers are limited to cable as their only choice. Most have DirectTv, Dish, Uverse, FIOS, etc. as an option.
> 
> The FCC should be looking out for the interests of consumers. To me, more choice in the DVR market would be good for consumers.


Very few cable customers in your market, perhaps. The majority of users still reside in single-provider areas. You cannot compare satellite hardware to cable hardware. TVs come with a plug for cable. They do not arrive with a plug for satellite reception.


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> I agree completely, Tivo's motives are not pure. But wouldn't you agree that a company like Moxi would have the same opportunity to enter the market if Tivo gets what they asked for? In fact, wouldn't it allow DirectTV to come up with an HR2x that would work with any cable service?


I agree conceptually. I still think the burden is on TiVo and Moxi to adapt to any new digital programming distribution paradigms.

By TiVo's logic, the FCC mandate to convert to ATSC should have included a provision that NTSC signals be made available as well, so that VCR's and DVR's with analog tuners could continue to operate.


----------



## RCY

gregjones said:


> Very few cable customers in your market, perhaps. The majority of users still reside in single-provider areas. You cannot compare satellite hardware to cable hardware. TVs come with a plug for cable. They do not arrive with a plug for satellite reception.


I have a DVR for cable, it hooks up to a RG6 cable leading to a cable company. I have a DVR for Direct TV, it hooks up to a RG6 cable leading to DirectTv. Cable is run on Utility poles (or underground), Direct TV is run from a sat dish.

Both DVRs are hooked up to TVs via HDMI, component or composite.


----------



## Steve

RCY said:


> I have a DVR for cable, it hooks up to a RG6 cable leading to a cable company. I have a DVR for Direct TV, it hooks up to a RG6 cable leading to DirectTv. Cable is run on Utility poles (or underground), Direct TV is run from a sat dish.


The cable is not the issue. It's the signal that rides on that cable that is incompatible. That same cable can deliver many different technologies: QAM/CABLE, IP, SATELLITE, ATSC, NTSC, etc. The HD TiVo's only speak QAM/CABLE and ATSC, AFAIK.


----------



## bbanks69

Steve said:


> The cable is not the issue. It's the signal that rides on that cable that is incompatible. That same cable can deliver many different technologies: QAM/CABLE, IP, SATELLITE, ATSC, NTSC, etc. The HD TiVo's only speak QAM/CABLE and ATSC, AFAIK.


Just curious, what type of signal does satellite produce, I know that my tv can hook up directly to a cable and get the lower end channels, but i can not hook up to a cable wire directly to my tv with Sat. and get any channel


----------



## bbanks69

One thing about cable, well charter which is the only cable in town in St. Louis, is they have one DVR rather u have hd or not, but D* has so many different dvr, it is mind bogling.


----------



## Steve

bbanks69 said:


> Just curious, what type of signal does satellite produce, I know that my tv can hook up directly to a cable and get the lower end channels, but i can not hook up to a cable wire directly to my tv with Sat. and get any channel


That's because your TV's tuner is expecting analog NTSC TV signals in the VHF (2-13) frequency range, the type of signals that are no longer being broadcast OTA since the digital transition. If you're still able to tune them without a box, I'm guessing it's probably because your cable company is still converting those channels to analog and sending them out to you.

Satellite is delivering a digital signal that is only compatible with the tuner and decoder found in the DirecTV or Dish receiver. I'm pretty sure each company uses a proprietary system, though I can't be sure about that. I'll defer to those who know more about sat transmission technology.


----------



## bbanks69

Steve said:


> That's because your TV's tuner is expecting analog NTSC TV signals in the VHF (2-13) frequency range, the type of signals that are no longer being broadcast OTA since the digital transition. If you're still able to tune them without a box, I'm guessing it's probably because your cable company is still converting those channels to analog and sending them out to you.
> 
> Satellite is delivering a digital signal that is only compatible with the tuner and decoder found in the DirecTV or Dish receiver. I'm pretty sure each company uses a proprietary system, though I can't be sure about that. I'll defer to those who know more about sat transmission technology.


I have not checked since the changeover, so i guess we all need some type of converter until the tv's catch up to digital technology


----------



## JLucPicard

Seems to me that most cable companies are required by the localities they serve to provide a low-cost alternative, which is why you can get basic service straight from the cable without a converter box.

I have no problem with DirecTV using technology to provide their product that doesn't allow just anyone to receive their signal (their PRODUCT) with just any equipment. My interests as a consumer are served just fine, thank you, without having some government bureaucracy deciding a company should change the way they do business to have to provide some "one size fits all" piece of hardware.


----------



## bonscott87

bbanks69 said:


> I have not checked since the changeover, so i guess we all need some type of converter until the tv's catch up to digital technology


Your TV will get channels without a tuner box in one of two cases:

1) If you have a digital tuner in your TV (most do) then you'd get OTA digital signals
2) Clear QAM channels from the cable company. Simply non encrypted channels. VERY few of these exist on any cable company.

You need tuner boxes with Satellite and cable and FIOS and Uverse because the signal is encrypted in one of various technologies as noted above. The tuner box needs to decrypt it to a signal your TV can understand.


----------



## Volunteer

Anybody know whether the new Tivo box coming with support SWM?


----------



## harsh

Volunteer said:


> Anybody know whether the new Tivo box coming with support SWM?


The hardware does and it is very likely that the software will too. SWM is relatively fundamental to DIRECTV's announced plans (although not the end-all for MDU).


----------



## DCSholtis

I was on D*s Twitter page which noted that Tivo now had a sign-up page which directed to the following URL:
http://www.tivo.com/dvr-products/tivo-partners/tivo-directv/directv-signup.html



> It's official! TiVo and DIRECTV have renewed their partnership, which means a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the Emmy® award-winning TiVo service is expected to launch to support satellite customers in 2010.
> 
> New and current DIRECTV satellite service customers will have the option to enjoy a next-generation HD Digital Video Recorder - sold and distributed by DIRECTV - that supports both DIRECTV's incredible High-Definition programming and the TiVo service, including features like Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone.
> 
> Want to stay up-to-date on developments? Sign up here and we'll keep you in the loop.


Sorry if it had been posted before.


----------



## HiDuck

It will be interesting to see how this gets priced out for use. With the original DirecTivo it was monthly but we lost out on features the stand alones had. I would be game for a lifetime subscription for full content on the new unit....TiVo to Go and Netflix for starters


----------



## Syzygy

The one feature the stand alones had that I missed the most in the HD D*TiVo was the Leonard Maltin star ratings for movies. Apparently D* thought it would be best if we believed all movies were the same.


----------



## Lee L

DCSholtis said:


> I was on D*s Twitter page which noted that Tivo now had a sign-up page which directed to the following URL:
> http://www.tivo.com/dvr-products/tivo-partners/tivo-directv/directv-signup.html
> 
> Sorry if it had been posted before.


Interesting, more mentions of a new box.


----------



## Doug Brott

Lee L said:


> Interesting, more mentions of a new box.


Yup, so far all of the news has been consistently "early 2010." This hasn't changed since the April time frame and is pretty much in line with TiVo's past history of delivering ~ 1 qtr late (the original announcement said 2nd half of 2009).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Just out of curiosity, what would you say "early" means? First Quarter? Before July 1?


----------



## trainman

Syzygy said:


> The one feature the stand alones had that I missed the most in the HD D*TiVo was the Leonard Maltin star ratings for movies. Apparently D* thought it would be best if we believed all movies were the same.


I believe that's a difference between the guide data feed DirecTV gets from Tribune Media Services (and passes along to all their receivers) versus the guide data feed that TiVo gets from Tribune (and passes along to standalone TiVos), rather than something that was "turned off" in the DirecTV version of the TiVo software.

DirecTV doesn't want people to know how bad some of their pay-per-view movies are.


----------



## Drew2k

Stuart Sweet said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you say "early" means? First Quarter? Before July 1?


With DIRECTV or any tech company for that matter, I think announcements with vague delivery dates always need to be taken with a grain of salt, so "early 2010" could mean anywhere from January 1 to June 30 to me ...


----------



## bonscott87

DCSholtis said:


> I was on D*s Twitter page which noted that Tivo now had a sign-up page which directed to the following URL:
> http://www.tivo.com/dvr-products/tivo-partners/tivo-directv/directv-signup.html
> 
> Sorry if it had been posted before.


Yep, Tivo put that up over a year ago when they first announced the new box.


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you say "early" means? First Quarter? Before July 1?


I vaguely remember a reference to Q1, but that may have just been me talking to myself rolleyes. However, I'm certain that "early 2010" is applicable based on every report that I've heard. Now, it's always possible those reports could turn out to be wrong and that things could slip again, but up to this point I haven't heard anything to suggest that it will.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, Tivo put that up over a year ago when they first announced the new box.


I signed up for it months ago, but have yet to get an e-mail with any updated news.


----------



## Tubaman-Z

Stuart Sweet said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you say "early" means? First Quarter? Before July 1?


The use of "early" tends to lead me down a mental path of early, mid, and late. So for me early would be sometime during the 1st 4 months.


----------



## Syzygy

Steve said:


> I signed up months ago, but have yet to get an e-mail with any updated news.


Same here. Signed up for MPEG4 TiVo updates at http://www.tivo.com/dvr-products/tivo-partners/tivo-directv/directv-signup.html months ago, no emails.


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> I signed up for it months ago, but have yet to get an e-mail with any updated news.


That would be because there hasn't been any. 

Besides, you honestly think you'll get info from Tivo via an email before it will be all over the net including this forum?  There is no need for such mailing lists anymore in the world of Twitter, blogs and forums.


----------



## Lee L

bonscott87 said:


> That would be because there hasn't been any.
> 
> Besides, you honestly think you'll get info from Tivo via an email before it will be all over the net including this forum?  There is no need for such mailing lists anymore in the world of Twitter, blogs and forums.


Well, they have to send it to at least one person.


----------



## Sixto

From 9/9/2009 TiVo SEC 10-Q Filling:Due to uncertainties over the ultimate profit margin on the development work, the Company recognizes revenues and costs for the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR based on a zero profit model, which results in the recognition of equal amounts of revenues and costs. During the six months ended July 31, 2009, the Company recognized $3.2 million in technology revenues and $3.2 million in cost of technology revenues related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR.​
From 9/9/2009 10am ET Kaufman Brothers Investor Conference, TiVo CEO DirecTV comments :"early next year"​


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> From 9/9/2009 TiVo SEC 10-Q Filling:Due to uncertainties over the ultimate profit margin on the development work, the Company recognizes revenues and costs for the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR based on a zero profit model, which results in the recognition of equal amounts of revenues and costs. During the six months ended July 31, 2009, the Company recognized $3.2 million in technology revenues and $3.2 million in cost of technology revenues related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR.​
> From 9/9/2009 10am ET Kaufman Brothers Investor Conference, TiVo CEO DirecTV comments :"early next year"​


Ahhh;

Could someone translate the corporate financial language here? Why exactly is TIVO basing the development of the TIVO based DirecTV HD-DVR on a "$0 profit model?"


----------



## HoTat2

Wait;

Never mind, after carefully rereading I think understand what their saying...


----------



## Sixto

Seemed like development was $3.2M over past 6 months (if reading this correctly).

Here's the full document:http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...maXBhZ2U9NjUwNzgyOSZhdHRhY2g9T04mc1hCUkw9MQ==​


----------



## nc88keyz

Because AT&T will not endorse development for Directv Tivo 2.0


God help us all .....if it goes down like that.


----------



## am7crew

Ill be so happy if/when this comes out. Ill replace all my HR22's.


----------



## waynenm

It seems that many of us, including me, will spend the upfront money to get out of the D* loop of hardware in order to get back to Tivo. As much as I enjoy the CE stuff, I still believe that Tivo's interface is just plain better. Sure, it has room to grow. But D* has always been playing catch-up. It will be most interesting to see how important the HR series becomes to D* when Tivo is back in the mix. I'm *so* ready for it!


----------



## Syzygy

HoTat2 said:


> Wait... Never mind, after carefully rereading I think understand what they're saying.


Well, I don't. Why a "zero profit model"?


----------



## wingrider01

waynenm said:


> It seems that many of us, including me, will spend the upfront money to get out of the D* loop of hardware in order to get back to Tivo. As much as I enjoy the CE stuff, I still believe that Tivo's interface is just plain better. Sure, it has room to grow. But D* has always been playing catch-up. It will be most interesting to see how important the HR series becomes to D* when Tivo is back in the mix. I'm *so* ready for it!


Don;t forget to take into account that there maybe a monthly reoccurring premium cost for this move over and above the initial lease acquistition payment - this is implied in the original press release


----------



## kiljoy

TiVo's been on the zero profit model for a while, and I say this as a huge fan.

Tony


----------



## Shades228

wingrider01 said:


> Don;t forget to take into account that there maybe a monthly reoccurring premium cost for this move over and above the initial lease acquistition payment - this is implied in the original press release


I'm betting they go to a per box dvr fee rather than a per subscriber.


----------



## JLucPicard

How cool would it be if the Lifetime Service from previous DirecTiVo's still applied to the new one? I'm guessing it will be more like a per-TiVo enabled DVR surcharge anyway, like Shades228 said. That could wind up being the go/no go factor for me as I'm not an "If it's TiVo, I have to have it" person.

At any rate, I'm certainly not gonna sweat it for a LONG time yet.


----------



## Shades228

nc88keyz said:


> Because AT&T will not endorse development for Directv Tivo 2.0
> 
> God help us all .....if it goes down like that.


Actually this argument would only lead to ATT buying DirecTV so that they become immune. Other than that ATT has no say over what DirecTV does with other parties.


----------



## wingrider01

Shades228 said:


> I'm betting they go to a per box dvr fee rather than a per subscriber.


Agree, HR2X pay a per montht charge for each box, the implied statement is that the Tivo software boxes would pay a premium per month charge per box - aka lease cost


----------



## wingrider01

JLucPicard said:


> How cool would it be if the Lifetime Service from previous DirecTiVo's still applied to the new one? I'm guessing it will be more like a per-TiVo enabled DVR surcharge anyway, like Shades228 said. That could wind up being the go/no go factor for me as I'm not an "If it's TiVo, I have to have it" person.
> 
> At any rate, I'm certainly not gonna sweat it for a LONG time yet.


aka the per month lease charge foe each box - I agree here


----------



## nc88keyz

If it replaces the $5 sub fee per directtv box now I would be ok with that move. Even a $7 a box, Its worth $10 MRC (5 DVRS)


----------



## Shades228

nc88keyz said:


> If it replaces the $5 sub fee per directtv box now I would be ok with that move. Even a $7 a box, Its worth $10 MRC (5 DVRS)


It will not replace the fee no matter what. The current model is dvr charge per account. For TiVo I'm guessing it will be per $X per TiVo box active on the account.

So $5 a mo per additional receiver and the TiVo fee per month per TiVo.


----------



## nc88keyz

It will never find its way into our home unfortunately at the current sub rate it charges x 5 boxes. 

I have faith in dtivo and their relationship with directv though. I think they will make it entising for us.


could make it similar to xm radio pricing. maybe 9.95 for 1st and 2.99 for each additional box. at that rate though. I cant pay 22 for tivo when HR20s work and do much the same. For the added benefits of series 3 and amazon, netflix whatever they offer it will not replace my htpc with xbmc ever in the living room. So it might be just for the hard core tivo lovers at that point. 

I love tivo and still have an HR10-250 active for OTA basically. It works well for that but I dont know how i feel about shelling out 15-20 more for tivo that i had the first time for $5 dvr fee 

Yes i know tivo has to make money too. Interesting to see how it will all play out including equipment costs.


----------



## harsh

kiljoy said:


> TiVo's been on the zero profit model for a while, and I say this as a huge fan.


On paper, TiVo has been operating on negative profit for the most part.


----------



## Shades228

harsh said:


> On paper, TiVo has been operating on negative profit for the most part.


They make good money off of law suits seems pretty profitible to me.


----------



## wingrider01

nc88keyz said:


> It will never find its way into our home unfortunately at the current sub rate it charges x 5 boxes.
> 
> I have faith in dtivo and their relationship with directv though. I think they will make it entising for us.
> 
> could make it similar to xm radio pricing. maybe 9.95 for 1st and 2.99 for each additional box. at that rate though. I cant pay 22 for tivo when HR20s work and do much the same. For the added benefits of series 3 and amazon, netflix whatever they offer it will not replace my htpc with xbmc ever in the living room. So it might be just for the hard core tivo lovers at that point.
> 
> I love tivo and still have an HR10-250 active for OTA basically. It works well for that but I dont know how i feel about shelling out 15-20 more for tivo that i had the first time for $5 dvr fee
> 
> Yes i know tivo has to make money too. Interesting to see how it will all play out including equipment costs.


You can be certain that you will pay a per month charge on each DVR, be it lease payment or mirror charge. That is the current pricing model that Directv has used for years. Do not see it changing becasue of the proposed release of new Tivo software. This was true back when the HR10 was the only HD game in town and is true now that the HR2X is the game. Given the owrding of the press release they will more then likely be a premium monthly reoccuring surcharge on the Tivo software.

TIVO has 0 sayso in making something enticing to Directv customers, unless they want to take it upon themselves to mail the TIVO users a monthly rebate check for every DVR unit theey have loaded with the TIVO software. TIVO needs directv, directv does not need tivo


----------



## Yoda-DBSguy

Shades228 said:


> They make good money off of law suits seems pretty profitible to me.


Well lets be frank here. It's only profitable if they actually collect. They have made absolutely $0 off of the law suits thus far. Actually that's not entirely true as they have gone further into debt bringing the case to court with the legal expenses.

Sure they have won judgements, but with all the appeals that means nothing to their bottom line at this point.

A judgement is only worth the paper it's written on. It's overcomming the multiple appeal process(s) then actually collecting on what is owed that will be the hardest hurdle to overcome. If and when they ever collect it may be a cash infusion; but they shouldn't be counting on it. :grin:


----------



## Shades228

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> Well lets be frank here. It's only profitable if they actually collect. They have made absolutely $0 off of the law suits thus far. Actually that's not entirely true as they have gone further into debt bringing the case to court with the legal expenses.
> 
> Sure they have won judgements, but with all the appeals that means nothing to their bottom line at this point.
> 
> A judgement is only worth the paper it's written on. It's overcomming the multiple appeal process(s) then actually collecting on what is owed that will be the hardest hurdle to overcome. If and when they ever collect it may be a cash infusion; but they shouldn't be counting on it. :grin:


Echostar already made a payment to them. Until it's overturned in any capacity they still made money.


----------



## ATARI

Shades228 said:


> Echostar already made a payment to them. Until it's overturned in any capacity they still made money.


I was not aware that Echostar made a payment. Could you link to a news item?


----------



## Steve

ATARI said:


> I was not aware that Echostar made a payment. Could you link to a news item?


See page 53 of this 10k (pdf p.59) Looks like they received $100 million last October.


----------



## Shades228

ATARI said:


> I was not aware that Echostar made a payment. Could you link to a news item?


It was awhile ago if I'm remembering correctly. It was the money set aside in the escro account. I could search the other thread about this issue and see if I'm remembering correctly or not.


----------



## Syzygy

Steve said:


> See page 53 of this 10k (pdf p.59) Looks like they received $100 million last October.


Do you mean the paragraph at the bottom of p.53 that begins with *"Universal Shelf Registration Statement"*? It's where I found "$100,000,000". I don't know how to read the jargon.

Never mind, I found $104.6 million received in October 2008 from EchoStar in the *first *paragraph on the same page.


----------



## Steve

Syzygy said:


> Do you mean the paragraph at the bottom of p.53 that begins with *"Universal Shelf Registration Statement"*? It's where I found "$100,00,000". I don't know how to read the jargon.


See below.


----------



## Syzygy

Great! I wonder how you scraped that thumbnail? The pdf seems to be protected.


----------



## Steve

Syzygy said:


> Great! I wonder how you scraped that thumbnail? The pdf seems to be protected.


Windows 7 has a neat "snipping tool" built-in.


----------



## Syzygy

Ha! I see. I'm still using Windows 5 (aka XP). But I do have HyperSnap, bought years ago.


----------



## harsh

Syzygy said:


> Ha! I see. I'm still using Windows 5 (aka XP). But I do have HyperSnap, bought years ago.


XP is version 5.1.

Microsoft Windows 2000 [Version 5.00.xxxx]

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.xxxx]


----------



## wingrider01

nc88keyz said:


> If it replaces the $5 sub fee per directtv box now I would be ok with that move. Even a $7 a box, Its worth $10 MRC (5 DVRS)


the HR2X will hav MRV before the Tivo comes out of vaporware - and until it is available to the masses it is still vaporware


----------



## tvradio00

wingrider01 said:


> the HR2X will hav MRV before the Tivo comes out of vaporware - and until it is available to the masses it is still vaporware


It is not vaporware they are simply waiting on USB 3.0 & HDMI 1.4


----------



## Steve

tvradio00 said:


> It is not vaporware they are simply waiting on USB 3.0 & HDMI 1.4


Could be, but only if DirecTV is planning to offer those features on a new box first. Based on public comments made by TiVo's CEO a few months ago, the TiVo code will ride on top of the HR2x code as middleware, similar to the Comcast TiVo implementation. If so, my guess is we probably won't be seeing the new TiVo "layer" until a stable HR2x MRV release is out, probably in early 2010.


----------



## Syzygy

Steve said:


> Could be, but only if DirecTV is planning to offer those features on a new box first. Based on public comments made by TiVo's CEO a few months ago, the TiVo code will ride on top of the HR2x code as middleware, similar to the Comcast TiVo implementation. If so, my guess is we probably won't be seeing the new TiVo "layer" until a stable HR2x MRV release is out, probably in early 2010.


Ouch! Please say it ain't so! Help, somebody! Correct this impression.

TiVo code riding on top of HR2x code as middleware would be a kludge, and a disaster. I believe TiVo code riding on top of Comcast code was a disaster as well.

For starters, the kernel in the HR2x code can't keep time accurately (it gets small intervals wrong), nor can it handle input from a remote (interrupts) without dropping some keypresses.


----------



## Steve

Syzygy said:


> Ouch! Please say it ain't so! Help, somebody! Correct this impression.


Wish I could provide a link to where I read that, but I've been unable to find it, so I may have to retract that statement until I find my source. Or perhaps someone else knows for sure, one way or the other.

What lends some credence to the idea there's a s/w dependency is the fact that if it was going to be a separate box, then the existing HR2x platform should have been a relatively easy port for TiVo. (The HR2x mobo design and chipset is very similar to the TiVoHD mobo design and chipset.) The fact that it's now a year past the announcement and no news leaking at all that there's an alpha or beta test taking place leads me to believe they're waiting on something, given that TiVo continues to hemorrhage DirecTV monthly subscription revenues, as more and more SD DirecTiVo's and HR10's are replaced by HR2x's every day.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

tvradio00 said:


> It is not vaporware they are simply waiting on USB 3.0 & HDMI 1.4


USB 3.0? e-sata is better and does not come with the high cpu load.


----------



## ATARI

Steve said:


> See below.


Cool.

Thanks.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Syzygy said:


> Ouch! Please say it ain't so! Help, somebody! Correct this impression.
> 
> TiVo code riding on top of HR2x code as middleware would be a kludge, and a disaster. I believe TiVo code riding on top of Comcast code was a disaster as well.
> 
> For starters, the kernel in the HR2x code can't keep time accurately (it gets small intervals wrong), nor can it handle input from a remote (interrupts) without dropping some keypresses.


The hardware will be the same that DIRECTV is and/or will be using. We don't know if all the HR2x will run the new TiVo code or just select newer models.

But the entire software stack will be TiVo's configuration (with some drivers, modules, authentication bits from the manufacturers and NDS as required.)

So DIRECTV's kernel likely won't be present--aside from they both will use Linux as the kernel anyway. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Syzygy

Tom Robertson said:


> *The hardware will be the same that DIRECTV is and/or will be using.* We don't know if all the HR2x will run the new TiVo code or just select newer models.
> 
> But the entire software stack will be TiVo's configuration (with some drivers, modules, authentication bits from the manufacturers and NDS as required.)
> 
> So DIRECTV's kernel likely won't be present--aside from they both will use Linux as the kernel anyway.  -- Tom


Thanx for providing your insight, Tom. I'm relieved.

I hope you'll be able to provide (eventually?) a little more clarity on whether the hardware will be what DirecTV *is* using or *will be* using. Naturally, I hope it's the latter.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Syzygy said:


> Thanx for providing your insight, Tom. I'm relieved.
> 
> I hope you'll be able to provide (eventually?) a little more clarity on whether the hardware will be what DirecTV *is* using or *will be* using. Naturally, I hope it's the latter.


I'm sure I will be--but by then it will be likely obvious to all of us. (In other words, I might not have any advanced warning on the matter.) 

Actually the best source might be from TiVo's investor conferences and SEC filings. DBStalk'ers have done a great job combing thru them for hints. Thanks gang!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Syzygy

Tom Robertson said:


> ... the entire software stack will be TiVo's configuration (with some drivers, modules, authentication bits from the manufacturers *and NDS* as required.) -- Tom


Actually, that NDS part is sorta scary. Authentication bits from NDS, no problem. Drivers or other modules from NDS, _eeek!_

Go Vikings!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Syzygy said:


> Actually, that NDS part is sorta scary. Authentication bits from NDS, no problem. Drivers or other modules from NDS, _eeek!_
> 
> Go Vikings!


The modules from NDS are part of the authentication bits from NDS. Most of the drivers and modules I refer to are from the hardware and chip manufacturers. Modules that control the video and decoder chips for the middleware and OS. Generally small but very important code bits that make things work. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Syzygy

Thanks for alleviating the _eeek _factor, Tom.

Now here's a question that you (or anyone on this forum) might not be able to answer yet: Is TiVo Inc having any effect on the design of D*'s yet-to-come DVR boxes? Any input from TiVo engineers?

Go Vikings!


----------



## johnp37

Get rid of that idiotic rotating blue ring. Really annoying!


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Tom Robertson said:


> The hardware will be the same that DIRECTV is and/or will be using. We don't know if all the HR2x will run the new TiVo code or just select newer models.
> 
> But the entire software stack will be TiVo's configuration (with some drivers, modules, authentication bits from the manufacturers and NDS as required.)
> 
> So DIRECTV's kernel likely won't be present--aside from they both will use Linux as the kernel anyway.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


but will all other Direct tv stuff be in there. Like all the red button stuff, mix channels, MRV, VOD, all the direct tv network stuff.


----------



## wingrider01

tvradio00 said:


> It is not vaporware they are simply waiting on USB 3.0 & HDMI 1.4


really - got some proof on this statement - until it hits the streets no matter what it is "waiting for" it is blue smoke and mirrors


----------



## loudo

johnp37 said:


> Get rid of that idiotic rotating blue ring. Really annoying!


Just shut it off you it bothers you.


----------



## Lee L

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually the best source might be from TiVo's investor conferences and SEC filings. DBStalk'ers have done a great job combing thru them for hints. Thanks gang!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


And each and every public statement from either company mentions the words "new box" or "new DVR" somewhere. I have no doubt that the box will be something that can either run DirecTV software or TiVO software. I am not conviced in any way that the TiVo software will run on anything that is currently available to DirecTV regular customers, like the current HR20-23 series.


----------



## ATARI

Lee L said:


> And each and every public statement from either company mentions the words "new box" or "new DVR" somewhere. I have no doubt that the box will be something that can either run DirecTV software or TiVO software. I am not conviced in any way that the TiVo software will run on anything that is currently available to DirecTV regular customers, like the current HR20-23 series.


And thus the HR3x series will be launched.

(Just my hunch)


----------



## ToddD

ATARI said:


> And thus the HR3x series will be launched.
> 
> (Just my hunch)


Like this?


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

ToddD said:


> Like this?


I was thinking that earlier when i posted the link to the original picture... We can dream, right?


----------



## Brennok

of course according to Ben those were empty boxes.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Brennok said:


> of course according to Ben those were empty boxes.


This is true... but so are most production-ready concept cars


----------



## ATARI

ToddD said:


> Like this?


Post some specs (just make stuff up).

Thanks!


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

ATARI said:


> Post some specs (just make stuff up).
> 
> Thanks!


Here's the specs I got from the brother-in-law of the third cousin of the guy at the 7-11 three blocks down from my cousin's aunt thrice removed:

DirecTiVo HR30-700

1.5 TB Hard Drive
Intel Core i7 Extreme @ 3.33 GHz
2 GB RAM
ATI Radeon HD 4200 Graphics (1 GB dedicated RAM)
HDMI 1.4 support
Gigabit Ehthernet w/ Passthrough
802.11n WiFi
1080p/24
RF backlit remote w/ VoiceCommand™
TiVo Software 10 (Interface design by Apple)
iPod dock with support for full HD video passthrough
MultiRoom Streaming to Thin Clients for TVs and PCs
Support for SWM-16
Place Shift technology to watch your DVR on the go from your iPod, iPhone, Blackberry, or any internet connected computer
It makes toast.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

dirtyblueshirt said:


> Here's the specs I got from the brother-in-law of the third cousin of the guy at the 7-11 three blocks down from my cousin's aunt thrice removed:
> 
> DirecTiVo HR30-700
> 
> 1.5 TB Hard Drive
> Intel Core i7 Extreme @ 3.33 GHz
> 2 GB RAM
> ATI Radeon HD 4200 Graphics (1 GB dedicated RAM)
> HDMI 1.4 support
> Gigabit Ehthernet w/ Passthrough
> 802.11n WiFi
> 1080p/24
> RF backlit remote w/ VoiceCommand™
> TiVo Software 10 (Interface design by Apple)
> iPod dock with support for full HD video passthrough
> MultiRoom Streaming to Thin Clients for TVs and PCs
> Support for SWM-16
> Place Shift technology to watch your DVR on the go from your iPod, iPhone, Blackberry, or any internet connected computer
> It makes toast.


Intel Core i7 Extreme @ 3.33 GHz + 4200 ati seems to be very over the top for a drv with helper video chips that do a lot of the work.

1.5tb sounds nice.

many people don't have the upload for watching your DVR on the go from your iPod, iPhone, Blackberry, or any internet connected computer may in SD but not HD.

LAN yes 1m upload not likely to be full hd.


----------



## dsw2112

dirtyblueshirt said:


> It makes toast.
> [/LIST]


:rolling:


----------



## oldfantom

dirtyblueshirt said:


> [*]It makes toast.
> [/LIST]


If it can't slice my bagels, I am going to FIOS. 
:sure:


----------



## ATARI

TiVo Software 10 (Interface design by Apple)

This is a nice touch. 

I'll take two!!


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

oldfantom said:


> If it can't slice my bagels, I am going to FIOS.
> :sure:


That feature will initially be available to CE Members, since it's buggy (right now it only slices onion bagels. Support for other flavors is expected in Q2 2013...)


----------



## wingrider01

dirtyblueshirt said:


> That feature will initially be available to CE Members, since it's buggy (right now it only slices onion bagels. Support for other flavors is expected in Q2 2013...)


Who wants to take bets that this will be taken as a fact


----------



## Doug Brott

Lee L said:


> And each and every public statement from either company mentions the words "new box" or "new DVR" somewhere. I have no doubt that the box will be something that can either run DirecTV software or TiVO software. I am not conviced in any way that the TiVo software will run on anything that is currently available to DirecTV regular customers, like the current HR20-23 series.


Being hopeful is often nice, but not always accurate.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Being hopeful is often nice, but not always accurate.


+1. The current gen TiVoHD's run on boxes with the same CPU and architecture as the HR21/22/23's, and the TiVo Series 3 runs on the equivalent of the HR20 design. The main difference between the platforms is sat tuner vs. cablecard tuner capability... not CPU, decoder or memory, which are identical.

So if what Tom said is correct, and there will be a new TiVo kernel, I'm willing to bet a steak dinner that the new s/w will be available as an option for current customers, without the need for an equipment swap.

Now there may be a new box coming out anyway, but not because it was needed for TiVo, IMHO.


----------



## waynenm

Steve said:


> +1. The current gen TiVoHD's run on boxes with the same CPU and architecture as the HR21/22/23's, and the TiVo Series 3 runs on the equivalent of the HR20 design. The main difference between the platforms is sat tuner vs. cablecard tuner capability... not CPU, decoder or memory, which are identical.
> 
> So if what Tom said is correct, and there will be a new TiVo kernel, I'm willing to bet a steak dinner that the new s/w will be available as an option for current customers, without the need for an equipment swap.
> 
> Now there may be a new box coming out anyway, but not because it was needed for TiVo, IMHO.


Wouldn't this be an amazing thing to happen? Yeah!


----------



## Shades228

Doug Brott said:


> Being hopeful is often nice, but not always accurate.


We can be hopeful and accurate "soon".


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> So if what Tom said is correct, and there will be a new TiVo kernel, I'm willing to bet a steak dinner that the new s/w will be available as an option for current customers, without the need for an equipment swap.


Not saying it won't happen, but this would be a surprise to me ...


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> Not saying it won't happen, but this would be a surprise to me ...


Me too.

It's a much easier assumption to believe that the new TiVo code will only be designed for the new hardware. Clean. Easy. One hardware base.

We've seen over the past few years that the HR2x platform all have slight differences (especially the -100!) ... and these slight differences have caused much coding to deal with each individual box.

I'd hate to see the TiVo designers/coders saddled with the need to make the code run on all of the old HR2x's.

Again, it's probably very doable, but just start with a clean slate and move forward.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Not saying it won't happen, but this would be a surprise to me ...


Hmmm. Well if so, then it's not because the current gen h/w is _incapable_ of handling the s/w... h/w's almost identical to TiVo's. Could be they make a conscious decision to only offer it on a new box then. That means it will be more costly to do all the swaps, tho. Be interesting to see what finally happens.

One thing we do know for sure, from the 9/08 TiVo/DirecTV agreement, is that it will be running on the DirecTV DVR platform, so whatever box it is should be capable of running either s/w.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I try to be honest in my dealings here so I'll reiterate that I have no contacts at TiVo Inc and therefore there's no reason to expect that I know more than anyone else. 

If I had to guess, I think it would likely be a middle ground. 

-I do not expect that TiVo software will be available for download. 

-I do think it will work on a receiver currently being made because if TiVo had to wait for the next generation hardware to come out they would be perpetually behind. 

-I expect the new TiVo to be based on one variant of the HR2x family. Some of you might not like this but TiVo has had experience working with Thomson/Audiovox/RCA, makers of the HR22-100. They collaborated on the R10-100. 

So, in my opinion, I would think this would all add up to a piece of hardware identical to an HR22-100 but set up from the factory with TiVo software.


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## ATARI

Stuart Sweet said:


> I try to be honest in my dealings here so I'll reiterate that I have no contacts at TiVo Inc and therefore there's no reason to expect that I know more than anyone else.
> 
> If I had to guess, I think it would likely be a middle ground.
> 
> -I do not expect that TiVo software will be available for download.
> 
> -I do think it will work on a receiver currently being made because if TiVo had to wait for the next generation hardware to come out they would be perpetually behind.
> 
> -I expect the new TiVo to be based on one variant of the HR2x family. Some of you might not like this but TiVo has had experience working with Thomson/Audiovox/RCA, makers of the HR22-100. They collaborated on the R10-100.
> 
> So, in my opinion, I would think this would all add up to a piece of hardware identical to an HR22-100 but set up from the factory with TiVo software.


A well thought out reasoning.

Time will tell.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> So, in my opinion, I would think this would all add up to a piece of hardware identical to an HR22-100 but set up from the factory with TiVo software.


That's a good theory. There may not be a way to overwrite the current HR2x s/w via a download, but settling on one model addresses *Sixto's * good points about maintaining multiple versions.


----------



## Sixto

Very interesting conjecture here. 

Prior to reading the past few posts, I was 100% convinced that the new TiVo code would only be available on a next generation receiver, but as always, some very thought provoking posts here.

It just seemed like it made better sense to cut the cord, move on, and use the new platform, because then you'd have plenty of horsepower and not need to deal with any legacy baggage. I also thought the TiVo delay into 2010 might be somewhat related to the need to wait for the new receiver. (yep, it can also just have to do with the development timeline).

With all of the software improvements with the current HR2x, not sure I'd ever switch, but it's always interesting to play ... compare ... contrast ... it will be interesting ... especially if TiVo supports most every existing Series3 feature and adds picture-in-guide and an HD GUI.


----------



## Sixto

Listening now to: TIVO INC at Goldman Sachs Communacopia Conference New York (Replay) 09/15/09 at 12:00 p.m. ET

Discussion was moderated and CEO Tom Rogers was asked questions ...

Trends:
- Access to anything at anytime, not just regular TV
- Commercial avoidance, the issue that the industry wants to avoid (more and more prevalent). TiVo provides advertising inventory, advertising solutions, TV measurements (TiVo 5 products) very important (Nielson ratings archaic - written diaries)

Top priority - More subscribers: DirecTV (he mentioned DirecTV first) "early next year", old partnership was great and expects the same ... Comcast (TiVo pure software) ... Best Buy new relationship (retail very important).

Investment case for TiVo (main points): Litigation (doing very well, full value of TiVo IP), near term distribution (DirecTV - early next year),

Competition: Microsoft/Apple? Others?: "great question". TiVo is "google of the TV". TiVo understands how people watch TV. Audience measurement business is key. Looking at how people want to watch TV. TiVo is unique in integrating non-TV into one interface.

Attitude towards M&A: "all for M&A". no debt. $250M cash now. more cash later: $400M. looking at companies that can help: audience research. r&d very important. can get much done quickly.

Being acquired?: can't answer the question. fascinating that a number of companies feel that TiVo is important. big ecosystem. interest growing.

Any content any time? Online video?: TiVo role to let consumer decide. Try to provide all. Download, stream. All means of delivery as can be provided.

Network DVR competition?: too much focus. long way to go due to legal. remote control response / trickplay may be slow and long way off. ambition is there but will take a while.

Litigation/Dish?: awarded another 200M+, contempt of court. awaiting November. remain confident. no new cash yet. have old cash.

Use of cash?: m&a, r&d, dividend/stock buyback. Strong IP. grow company.

AT&T/Verizon litigation?: confidence from Dish led to new litigation. clear that no new business relationship was going to happen with AT&T and Verizon which led to litigation as only option. Wanted a business relationship like DirecTV, Comcast, Best Buy but wasn't available.

When DirecTV: "early next year". haven't been catching new HDTV homes when they switch to HD. 

Economy?: slight Q2 improvement. amazed that economy really hasn't affected much. consumer electronics has done fairly well.

5 years from now?: constant new features. never ending. new features coming (soon).

TV the way of the iPhone?: open apps? 3rd party apps. TV may follow.


----------



## Sixto

The two most interesting things about Rogers chat was that 1) he mentioned or hinted at DirecTV more then usual, and 2) it was very clear that they sued AT&T and Verizon because they weren't interested in a TiVo "business relationship" like the #1 satellite provider, #1 cable company, and #1 electronics retailer. Interesting choice of words.

Looking back at all the recent analyst briefings and conferences, today he referred to DirecTV the most. Said "early next year" more then once.

Also just noticed the additional line in the 10-Q: "Technology revenues for the three and six months ended July 31, 2009 increase $2.0 million, as compared to the same prior year periods primarily due to higher volume of work for DIRECTV. "


----------



## dbsdave

At least he didn't say "soon "


----------



## Stuart Sweet

> - Commercial avoidance, the issue that the industry wants to avoid (more and more prevalent). TiVo provides advertising inventory, advertising solutions, TV measurements (TiVo 5 products) very important (Nielson ratings archaic - written diaries)


Here is where I am sure TiVo is going in the wrong direction. By trying to accommodate the advertisers when it's clear that the will of the people is fewer ads and less-invasive advertising, they're sure to reach a point where they alienate the base.

I am certain that given any sort of choice at all, the vast majority of folks will eschew any device that adds additional advertising to programs. The only defense of STB-added advertising is "it's not that bad" and "they have to advertise somehow."

More to the point, if STB-based advertising becomes the norm not the exception, I expect the same arc as banner and pop-up ads took in the last ten years... the user will be overloaded, then technology will exist to suppress most of it, followed by a period where expectations for the ads are low and they are placed more discreetly.

The industry should learn from history with pop-up ads and skip straight to the "more discreetly" stage, and if TiVo wants to lead the charge into pervasive STB-based advertising, they'll likely lose subs left and right.


----------



## bonscott87

Sixto said:


> 2) it was very clear that they sued AT&T and Verizon because they weren't interested in a TiVo "business relationship" like the #1 satellite provider, #1 cable company, and #1 electronics retailer. Interesting choice of words.


That is sooooo funny. It's like the mob coming to your store saying "you will buy protection or else". AT&T and Verizon told Tivo to pound sand and thus Tivo sues them. Good stuff. :lol:


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Listening now to: TIVO INC at Goldman Sachs Communacopia Conference New York (Replay) 09/15/09 at 12:00 p.m. ET
> 
> Discussion was moderated and CEO Tom Rogers was asked questions ...
> 
> Trends:
> - Access to anything at anytime, not just regular TV
> - Commercial avoidance, the issue that the industry wants to avoid (more and more prevalent). *TiVo provides advertising inventory, advertising solutions, TV measurements (TiVo 5 products) very important (Nielson ratings archaic - written diaries*)...


And in addition to what Stewart points out in this advertisement area, I assume by this statement TIVO will most likely continue its system of monitoring DVR usage in the new HD DTIVO. A system which I have always disdained.

Yes I'm more than aware of TIVO's historic assurances of strict anonymity in this collection process, but I have still hated it nevertheless and feel it should be optional if anything. At least I have to give credit to DirecTV and other DVR suppliers in this area. Whatever other flaws their DVRs may have, there is no sublime spying of your viewing habits going on as with TIVO.


----------



## Steve

HoTat2 said:


> [...] At least I have to give credit to DirecTV and other DVR suppliers in this area. Whatever other flaws their DVRs may have, there is no sublime spying of your viewing habits going on as with TIVO.


FWIW, the current privacy statement advises that we can contact DirecTV directly to disable sharing of anonymous viewing stats. This is probably there because of the DirecTiVo's still in use and may apply to the new TiVo's when they come out. I'm not sure if the HR2x's "phone home" with this viewing info as well:

_*I. Types of Information we collect and how we collect it*

[...]

"Anonymous Viewing Information" means information about use of your DIRECTV Receiver that is not associated with or linked to your Account Information. Your DIRECTV Receiver regularly sends Anonymous Viewing Information to us. This information allows us to know, for example, that a customer from a particular city watched a show, but we cannot associate those viewing choices with you. You may request that we block the collection of Anonymous Viewing Information from your DIRECTV Receiver as described in Section IV below.

[...]

Even though Anonymous Viewing Information does not include any Account Information whatsoever, you may request that we block the collection of such information from your DIRECTV Receiver.

[...]

If you prefer that we not share your Customer Information with affiliated companies or third parties for their marketing purposes, please call (1-800-531-5000), email (directv.com/email) or mail us (DIRECTV Privacy Policy, P.O. Box 6550, Greenwood Village, CO, 80155-6550)._


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## oldfantom

D* has a couple of places (Web and On Screen App) that will tell me what people are watching nation wide and locally. They are not guessing. D* monitors your viewing. How, I do not know. But it is a certainty they do. While I am all for privacy, the "sublime spying" is good for us in the long run in some aspects. It helps to make decisions about what and how we watch programming in a much more accurate and timely fashion than Nielson does. Better data saves shows that have good next day viewing numbers. All that said, the downside to this data collection method, is that it is data without context. No demographics. 

However, if you watch Eureka, you see the future of free television and advertising. Last year they had ads for Degree, this year Subaru embedded in the content. The long and short of "free television" is that someone has to pay for the content and they need to know how much that content is worth.


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## HoTat2

Steve said:


> FWIW, the current privacy statement advises that we can contact DirecTV directly to disable sharing of anonymous viewing stats. This is probably there because of the DirecTiVo's still in use and may apply to the new TiVo's when they come out. I'm not sure if the HR2x's "phone home" with this viewing info as well:
> 
> _*I. Types of Information we collect and how we collect it*
> 
> [...]
> 
> "Anonymous Viewing Information" means information about use of your DIRECTV Receiver that is not associated with or linked to your Account Information. Your DIRECTV Receiver regularly sends Anonymous Viewing Information to us. This information allows us to know, for example, that a customer from a particular city watched a show, but we cannot associate those viewing choices with you. You may request that we block the collection of Anonymous Viewing Information from your DIRECTV Receiver as described in Section IV below.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Even though Anonymous Viewing Information does not include any Account Information whatsoever, you may request that we block the collection of such information from your DIRECTV Receiver.
> 
> [...]
> 
> If you prefer that we not share your Customer Information with affiliated companies or third parties for their marketing purposes, please call (1-800-531-5000), email (directv.com/email) or mail us (DIRECTV Privacy Policy, P.O. Box 6550, Greenwood Village, CO, 80155-6550)._


Great!

Thanks for this, I will call DirecTV (clueless CSRs permitting) about this as I still have two legacy SD DTIVO's in use which I would definitely like to disable this feature on.

And the new HD DTIVO is back on my wish list with the hope other of TIVO's annoyances will be rectified in the new model as well. No PIG, only a 30 min. live buffer, no incon(s) in the guide to denote upcoming recordings, etc.


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## DarinC

FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, there has _always_ been an option to opt out of the TiVo data collection. Personally, I like it... that's part of how suggestions finds shows you may like (comparing your viewing habits with those of others with similar viewing habbits). I'm not sure why anyone would object to anonymous viewing reporting, but if it does, just opt out of it.


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## mikela

Does anyone know if D will let tivo use all of it's bells and whistles like tivo2go and MRV? That would be sweet.


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## Sixto

mikela said:


> Does anyone know if D will let tivo use all of it's bells and whistles like tivo2go and MRV? That would be sweet.


Not public information. Some features more likely, some features less likely. Been much speculation in this thread since 9/3/2008. We wait.


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## HoTat2

DarinC said:


> FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, there has _always_ been an option to opt out of the TiVo data collection. Personally, I like it... that's part of how suggestions finds shows you may like (comparing your viewing habits with those of others with similar viewing habbits). I'm not sure why anyone would object to anonymous viewing reporting, but if it does, just opt out of it.


Oh well...

Maybe I will just stay within the program after all. That is unless you have to contact TIVO about opting-out of the anonymous viewing reporting, DirecTV CS was totally clueless about this feature much less how to block it.


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## Sixto

I was under the impression that both TiVo and the HR2x collect data. No difference. They may collect different data, but thought they both do it. And there's the opt out option described earlier.


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## bonscott87

All you gotta do is log into your account online and turn off the data collection if you'd like. It's an option in your account setup. At least it used to be. No need to talk to a CSR.


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## HoTat2

bonscott87 said:


> All you gotta do is log into your account online and turn off the data collection if you'd like. It's an option in your account setup. At least it used to be. No need to talk to a CSR.


Thanks!

Got it, didn't even know that it was there right on my account after all this time.


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## kiljoy

Maybe you'd care to explain what it is you find objectionable about anonymous data collection of your viewing habits? I genuinely don't understand. My parents feel the same way but can't give any logical reason for feeling the way they do.

It seems to me that if it plays a constructive role in building your suggestion list, gets reported back to networks about what shows are popular (and how popular, given that things watched sooner are probably more anticipated), and shows when things are kept and rewatched, that there are only benefits to you personally. More shows like what you enjoy both being made and being suggested, greater popularity for the shows you enjoy, and greater effort made to tailor the DVR experience to the way you're using your device are all things that jump out immediately to me.

What are the downsides?

Tony


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## Shades228

Big brother is out to get you.


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## gfranzen

I can hardley wait for the TIVO box. As an OS writer for the last 30 years, I find the DTV box to be an insult. The performance is total crap. The software is devoid of any concurrency. Just today I was seeing multiple second response to guide activities like scrolling down a list of channels. Clearly the DTV box was off doing something else.


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## BattleScott

kiljoy said:


> Maybe you'd care to explain what it is you find objectionable about anonymous data collection of your viewing habits? I genuinely don't understand. My parents feel the same way but can't give any logical reason for feeling the way they do.
> 
> It seems to me that if it plays a constructive role in building your suggestion list, gets reported back to networks about what shows are popular (and how popular, given that things watched sooner are probably more anticipated), and shows when things are kept and rewatched, that there are only benefits to you personally. More shows like what you enjoy both being made and being suggested, greater popularity for the shows you enjoy, and greater effort made to tailor the DVR experience to the way you're using your device are all things that jump out immediately to me.
> 
> What are the downsides?
> 
> Tony


For myself, it's a general belief that the "anonymous" data collection practices when given the right financial incentive, or by negligence will become not so anonymous and lead to more wonderful things like SPAM email, telemarketing and identity theft.


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## shmengie

how will that work?

while i think i will always have a beef with the (lack of) speed of my hr21, i think d* has made a strong effort to fix bugs and add features. i like my hr21.

but...

i will always have a place in my heart for tivo. you never forget your first dvr. 

so, i'm sure that when the tivo unit gets released, i will want to at least TRY it out, right? i'm sure there will be reviews and early adopters, and that will be helpful. but, do you think d* will offer something like a fine-you-want-to-try-the-tivo-unit?-fine-we'll-send-you-one-to-try-for-30-days-just-send-us-back-the-one-you-don't-want-and-you-pay-all-the-shipping kinda thing?

no, i know they wont. but, we all know there will be a lot of interest in the new tivo box. i guess folks will just pay the upgrade/leasing fees and shipping and hope for the best and hope they don't have to send it back and do the same thing again to get their hr unit back?

of course, we are talking about tivo, so it's hard to imagine that it won't be a winner.

eh, i guess i'm just thinking out loud. well, as loud as my keyboard, anyways.


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## oldfantom

BattleScott said:


> For myself, it's a general belief that the "anonymous" data collection practices when given the right financial incentive, or by negligence will become not so anonymous and lead to more wonderful things like SPAM email, telemarketing and identity theft.


The right financial incentive for SPAM, telemarketing and ID Theft is not realistic. D* may share with partners, but that has nothing to do with viewing and frankly, the trend is away from this practice as it is worse PR than it is worth to sell data.

A hacker getting in and stealing your data. Maybe, but you are more likely to be a victim because you ate out or went shopping at TJ Max.

A general queasy feeling because you are a 40 year old who likes to watch Teen Titans on Boomerang. I get that, really, I do.


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## hdtvfan0001

gfranzen said:


> I can hardley wait for the TIVO box. As an OS writer for the last 30 years, I find the DTV box to be an insult. The performance is total crap. The software is devoid of any concurrency. Just today I was seeing multiple second response to guide activities like scrolling down a list of channels. Clearly the DTV box was off doing something else.


You have plenty of wait left....there is no specific deliver timeline on a Tivo-based unit except "2010" some time. There's a whole thread discussing it already.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138443

As for one who also had the previous Tivobox...I totally disagree with your statements.

The reason there were thousands of hacks of the older units was that Tivo's OS had tons of holes in it, and also failed to meet market needs by itself...so a whole cottage industry of fixes, changes, and add-ons grew.

The reason Tivo was peppier on some functions was that it simply did less. There were also plenty of lockups, reboots, and slowness on some functions there as well.

If you indeed are an OS writer as you say, then you must realize that the Tivo OS had been designed to serve the least common demoninator of users - put simply - its dumbed down with a graphical presentation that even a beginner can use. While that was a positive in terms of acceptance by some folks 5-6 years ago....now that DVRs have been our a number of years, the bar has been raised for expectations by users beyond the overly-simplified Tivo approach from the past.

Furthermore, with the advent of MRV in the DirecTV units, along with a number of other newer network-based capabilities....any Tivo-based unit would have to ramp up its past capabilities and user interface from the past to compete toe-to-toe. That may very well happen.

Since we don't know what the next Tivo-based box will be....only time will tell if it meets the marketplace expectations. The HRx DirecTV HD DVRS are the standard by which any comparisons will be made. Other than a Tivo "look and feel", I suspect the actual capabilities within the new unit's OS itself will likely be more similar than different.

Tivo is not the "end all" that some make it out to be. It meets a market segment need, but in the end...the OS has always had a history of its own shortcomings.


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## Sixto

Within a few seconds of getting the details of the new TiVo box, will look for the following:

Is it running natively on the hardware and does the new hardware have a new fast Broadcom processor?
Is it a Series3 for DirecTV or some restricted handcuffed TiVo? (this is VERY important)
Is the MRV ... DLNA MRV or Series3 MRV?
Is the latest and greatest TiVo Desktop (w/Music/Video/Photo) supported? 2Go?
Does it support PIG? HD GUI?
There are many features and functions to look for, but that's the first I will look for and I assume that the box will support: DoD, MPEG4, SWM, AM21, Interactive features, TiVo Glo Remote.


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## jacksonm30354

BattleScott said:


> For myself, it's a general belief that the "anonymous" data collection practices when given the right financial incentive, or by negligence will become not so anonymous and lead to more wonderful things like SPAM email, telemarketing and identity theft.





oldfantom said:


> The right financial incentive for SPAM, telemarketing and ID Theft is not realistic. D* may share with partners, but that has nothing to do with viewing and frankly, the trend is away from this practice as it is worse PR than it is worth to sell data.
> 
> A hacker getting in and stealing your data. Maybe, but you are more likely to be a victim because you ate out or went shopping at TJ Max.
> 
> A general queasy feeling because you are a 40 year old who likes to watch Teen Titans on Boomerang. I get that, really, I do.


If it's anonymous it has no account information associated with it. The flag on you account just sets your DVR to allow it to send data to the data warehouse. The data sent from the DVR has no personal or account information associated with it (otherwise it's not anonymous). So even if a hacker got in, the data would not be traceable back to you. So you can't get SPAM turning on the flag and you won't get mail or calls from telemarketers.

I for one think it would be great if all satellite and cable boxes did this. It would do away with or give competition to the nielsen ratings by having the actually viewership of shows. It might help lesser viewed shows get a more accurate tally and may help keep them from cancellation.


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## kymikes

Sixto said:


> Within a few seconds of getting the details of the new TiVo box, will look for the following:
> 
> Is it running natively on the hardware and does the new hardware have a new fast Broadcom processor?
> Is it a Series3 for DirecTV or some restricted handcuffed TiVo? (this is VERY important)
> Is the MRV ... DLNA MRV or Series3 MRV?
> Is the latest and greatest TiVo Desktop (w/Music/Video/Photo) supported? 2Go?
> Does it support PIG? HD GUI?
> There are many features and functions to look for, but that's the first I will look for and I assume that the box will support: DoD, MPEG4, SWM, AM21, Interactive features, TiVo Glo Remote.


And these last few posts indicate the 'flaw' in these 'new TIVO' threads. We don't have any credible view of the hardware and OS base for this new machine and so many posters are driven to believe their personal expectations will be met. Sixto makes the excellent observation that until we have a much clearer view of the the 'foundation' of the new box, all the rest of this speculation is just speculation, often driven by the desires of the individuals doing the speculation. On the other hand, it is a great vehicle to improve some folks post counts. Just my views.


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## dsw2112

jacksonm30354 said:


> If it's anonymous it has no account information associated with it. The flag on you account just sets your DVR to allow it to send data to the data warehouse. The data sent from the DVR has no personal or account information associated with it (otherwise it's not anonymous). So even if a hacker got in, the data would not be traceable back to you. So you can't get SPAM turning on the flag and you won't get mail or calls from telemarketers.
> 
> I for one think it would be great if all satellite and cable boxes did this. It would do away with or give competition to the nielsen ratings by having the actually viewership of shows. It might help lesser viewed shows get a more accurate tally and may help keep them from cancellation.


The data collection doesn't bother me one way or the other, but I just want to point out that the MLB drug testing years ago was anonymous and the results are sealed under court order. Neither has prevented info from seeing the light of day...


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## oldfantom

jacksonm30354 said:


> It would do away with or give competition to the nielsen ratings by having the actually viewership of shows. It might help lesser viewed shows get a more accurate tally and may help keep them from cancellation.


It can't do away with Nielson until it finds a way to know your demographics. TIVO can't know you age, gender or race. Nielson does. Advertisers want that or else they are going to start buying time for ED pills on the wrong darn shows.


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## hdtvfan0001

kymikes said:


> And these last few posts indicate the 'flaw' in these 'new TIVO' threads. We don't have any credible view of the hardware and OS base for this new machine and so many posters are driven to believe their personal expectations will be met. Sixto makes the excellent observation that until we have a much clearer view of the the 'foundation' of the new box, all the rest of this speculation is just speculation, often driven by the desires of the individuals doing the speculation.


Yes indeed....and worse yet....every few days....another person seems to bypass any attempt at searching for this main thread, and instead launches yet another in the continuing saga of pro-Tivo rants.

From those repeated actions....it would seem that since they can only operate a Tivo device, they are incapable of using something so readily complex as a search function.


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## trainman

hdtvfan0001 said:


> From those repeated actions....it would seem that since they can only operate a Tivo device, they are incapable of using something so readily complex as a search function.


Ironic, because the TiVo search is much better than the one on the DirecTV DVRs.


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## hdtvfan0001

trainman said:


> Ironic, because the TiVo search is much better than the one on the DirecTV DVRs.


A matter of opinion.

My HR10-250 used to enjoy locking up during searches.


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## Syzygy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...it would seem that since [pro-Tivo people] can only operate a Tivo device, they are incapable of using something so readily complex as a [vBulletin] search function.


Agreed, you have to be above average to use the HR2x to its fullest. You gotta have the patience of Job to put up with the extremely sluggish UI; you have to be a Keyword Autorecord wizard to get around the 50-SL limit; and, starting with the 0x032C release, you have to spend many hours diagnosing and working around the fact that Keyword Autorecords now record all reruns even though you specify First Run Only.

That's just for starters, of course; the ways D* has of consuming the user's time are manifold.


----------



## loudo

trainman said:


> Ironic, because the TiVo search is much better than the one on the DirecTV DVRs.


But the HR10-250 guide display was horrible. But, we can't compare an old outdated piece of equipment (HR10-250) to a new piece of equipment that hasn't even come out yet. I really liked my TIVO HR10-250, until I got used to the HR20-700, which after about 2 weeks of use, I preferred.


----------



## Syzygy

loudo said:


> But the HR10-250 guide display was horrible. But, we can't compare an old outdated piece of equipment (HR10-250) to a new piece of equipment that hasn't even come out yet. I really liked my TIVO HR10-250, until I got used to the HR20-700, which after about 2 weeks of use, I preferred.


That "old outdated" HR10-250 is superior in many ways to the HR2x, and the more they "enhance" the latter (at the same time introducing new bugs and bringing back old ones) the better the HR10-250 looks. If only it could receive MPEG-4. (BTW, I don't use the Guide; I use the HR10-250's incredibly valuable lists.)

As I've said, the HR2x is way past the point where it became unmaintainable.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Very common behavior in software projects. Alternating between performance and features. We're likely going to see new performance enhancements in the future; based on how these things often go.

Every once in awhile a project will have a home run. A new feature that also improves performance--just by installing a new engine under the hood to support the feature--and has a side effect of speading things up. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Syzygy

Tom Robertson said:


> Very common behavior in software projects. Alternating between performance and features.


That makes me think you didn't get the gist of my post. Please re-read it. Also, there's no "alternating" when performance steadily gets worse.

What's "very common behavior in software projects" is the descent into unmaintainability because of too many jerry-rigged "improvements."


----------



## HoTat2

Syzygy said:


> That "old outdated" HR10-250 is superior in many ways to the HR2x, and the more they "enhance" the latter (at the same time introducing new bugs and bringing back old ones) the better the HR10-250 looks. If only it could receive MPEG-4. (BTW, I don't use the Guide; I use the HR10-250's incredibly valuable lists.)
> 
> As I've said, the HR2x is way past the point where it became unmaintainable.


But if memory serves me, the HR10-250 nevertheless had it's fair share of complaints about flakey behavior from posters. And was not nearly as stable as the SD model.

Not the least of which was the prohibitive initial price tag of $1000.00.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Syzygy said:


> That makes me think you didn't get the gist of my post. Please re-read it. Also, there's no "alternating" when performance steadily gets worse.
> 
> What's "very common behavior in software projects" is the descent into unmaintainability because of too many jerry-rigged "improvements."


Which post?

The unmaintainability point comes in the later stages . The HR2x is still in early stages of development where the alternating happens.

And in the early stages they don't have to be kludges or jerry-rigged improvements. At this point the architects can get solid usage and performance data to indicate which modules need either re-write or re-architecting. A database engine can be pulled and replaced with better performing one.

A database can be re-indexed or re-tabled to greatly improve the UI. Scheduling priorities can be changed to shift performance appropriately from low priority to UI activities.

There are still lots of things to be done as the software starts to mature. Properly architected, these changes are hardly jerry-rigs, but healthy maturing.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Syzygy

Tom Robertson said:


> ... A database can be re-indexed or re-tabled to greatly improve the UI. Scheduling priorities can be changed to shift performance appropriately from low priority to UI activities.


Both would be welcome.

But they've had rights to a presumably better database for many months now; when is it going to get used? (To hull with re-indexing and re-tabling.)

And we've all been waiting to see much more priority given to incoming keypresses and to the internal micro-clock. For many months. But interrupt handling is worse now, with 0x034C, than it has ever been.


----------



## Richierich

Syzygy said:


> And we've all been waiting to see much more priority given to incoming keypresses and to the internal micro-clock. For many months. But interrupt handling is worse now, with 0x034C, than it has ever been.


I have to hit the Guide Button to bring up the Guide and then Enter the Channel Number and then Press Enter to ensure that I will go to the Right Channel!!!

What A Bummer!!! This should be fairly easy to fix as I was a computer programmer for 35 years and this ain't that hard a fix.

TiVo had to do it after they had degradation problems and I guess Directv doesn't remember that situation and how it was resolved or doesn't have the programmers that TiVo has or had to fix this problem.

It was simply a matter of RESTRUCTURING AND REORGANIZING the DATABASE and the way that it was INDEXED!!!


----------



## Nicholsen

Syzygy said:


> Agreed, you have to be above average to use the HR2x to its fullest. You gotta have the patience of Job to put up with the extremely sluggish UI; you have to be a Keyword Autorecord wizard to get around the 50-SL limit; and, starting with the 0x032C release, you have to spend many hours diagnosing and working around the fact that Keyword Autorecords now record all reruns even though you specify First Run Only.
> 
> That's just for starters, of course; the ways D* has of consuming the user's time are manifold.


+1

I don't want to read a user manual for a DVR. Good design should make that unnecessary.

The response to the remote on my HR21 also remains slow and unpredictable, which makes it unpleasant to use. There have been complaints about this forever. It sometimes gets better or worse, depending on the flavor of the current NR, but it never seems to get fixed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> Agreed, you have to be above average to use the HR2x to its fullest. You gotta have the patience of Job to put up with the extremely sluggish UI; you have to be a Keyword Autorecord wizard to get around the 50-SL limit; and, starting with the 0x032C release, you have to spend many hours diagnosing and working around the fact that Keyword Autorecords now record all reruns even though you specify First Run Only.


I guess since my 10 year old grandson has no problems using the HRx series units at all - including trickplay....he must be above average compared to the typical Tivo user. 

As for your *claims* of a sluggish UI.....!rolling!rolling!rolling


----------



## rey_1178

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess since my 10 year old grandson has no problems using the HRx series units at all - including trickplay....he must be above average compared to the typical Tivo user.
> 
> As for your *claims* of a sluggish UI.....!rolling!rolling!rolling


well yes the GUI can be sluggish at times. it's a common complaint. have gone through it myself but it'll continue to improve.  and for sure there are worse GUI's out there


----------



## JLucPicard

Every time the conversation turns to "The HR2x's are sluggish and slow" and "TiVo is the best unit on the planet", I can't help but harken back to the good old days when I dreaded setting Season Passes on my HR10-250 and having to make sure I had PLENTY of time to kill waiting for many, many *minutes* (not seconds) for the SP to set and get control of the unit back. What a joy that WASN'T!!!


----------



## Syzygy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess since my 10 year old grandson has no problems using the HRx series units at all - including trickplay....he must be above average compared to the typical Tivo user.


So, your grandson has no problems using HR2x trickplay. Therefore he's using the HR2x to its fullest.


----------



## Syzygy

rey_1178 said:


> well yes the GUI can be sluggish at times. it's a common complaint. have gone through it myself but it'll continue to improve.  and for sure there are worse GUI's out there


Well, that's fine, then. We'll let the HR2x off the hook and say it's a good little box if someone can find a worse GUI out there somewhere. :grin:


----------



## Syzygy

JLucPicard said:


> Every time the conversation turns to "The HR2x's are sluggish and slow" and "TiVo is the best unit on the planet", I can't help but harken back to the good old days when I dreaded setting Season Passes on my HR10-250 and having to make sure I had PLENTY of time to kill waiting for many, many *minutes* (not seconds) for the SP to set and get control of the unit back. What a joy that WASN'T!!!


That's _one_ thing that's slow on a TiVo. But at least everything works.

The HR2x has a lot of things that are slow, plus a lot of things that just plain don't work. And I see hardly any improvement being made in either category. Actually, it's getting slower. Also, it's working worse -- and I didn't think that was possible.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> So, your grandson has no problems using HR2x trickplay. Therefore he's using the HR2x to its fullest.


He said he's available for lessons for those of you who need them.


----------



## Nicholsen

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :
> 
> As for your *claims* of a sluggish UI.....!rolling!rolling!rolling


:lol::lol::lol:

I think this is funny, but probably not in the way you intended. Perhaps you should have just said written "YOU LIE!" in bold at the top of your post. 

Let's try to have a conversation based in reality. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Do a board search on "slow" and get back to me on how many hits your get.

My HR21 is slow, and prone to brief lock-ups that impair the response to the remote. You can push the buttons, but its mind is elsewhere. Others report similar problems.

I don't really care how slow the HD TiVo was under version 3x of the software back in "The Day." To their credit, TiVo fixed that problem and the 6.3f TiVo software has been working really well on my box for several years. When are we going to see a fix providing similar "snappy" response to the remote on the HR2x?

I will be honest, I anticipate version 1.0 of the new TiVo software will likely have a few serious bugs. I also anticipate they will be diligent in getting bug fixes out the door.

In the meantime I would like my HR2x fixed.


----------



## Just Ask

hdtvfan0001 said:


> He said he's available for lessons for those of you who need them.


Can I get in on those lessons? LOL

But, Seriously...is there a link to a list of trick play "tricks"? I have searched several times before and never found a single comprehensive trick play FAQ.

Maybe what I really need a lesson in is how to search?]:lol::lol::lol:

Thanks in advance...


----------



## loudo

Syzygy said:


> The HR2x has a lot of things that are slow, plus a lot of things that just plain don't work.


What features does your unit have that don't work? I have two HR20-700s that work just fine. The screens are a little slow when I have the unit in "native" mode, but all my features function fine. 
My HR10-250s features worked fine and I didn't care for the guide, but I can remember loosing recorded programing and one period where the unit would not record scheduled programs for almost an entire week.


----------



## wingrider01

richierich said:


> I have to hit the Guide Button to bring up the Guide and then Enter the Channel Number and then Press Enter to ensure that I will go to the Right Channel!!!
> 
> What A Bummer!!! This should be fairly easy to fix as I was a computer programmer for 35 years and this ain't that hard a fix.
> 
> TiVo had to do it after they had degradation problems and I guess Directv doesn't remember that situation and how it was resolved or doesn't have the programmers that TiVo has or had to fix this problem.
> 
> It was simply a matter of RESTRUCTURING AND REORGANIZING the DATABASE and the way that it was INDEXED!!!


Up until I used the HR10, I had always wondered where the UI programmers that did Windows 3.0, 3.10 and 3.11 went to, after using the HR10 I found out - TIVO hired them.


----------



## wingrider01

hdtvfan0001 said:


> He said he's available for lessons for those of you who need them.


If he is not, my eight year old for lessons will do it, price point should be about 250.00 US a hour for Basic 101 instructions on how to use the HR2X boxes


----------



## chris vesuvio

JLucPicard said:


> Every time the conversation turns to "The HR2x's are sluggish and slow" and "TiVo is the best unit on the planet", I can't help but harken back to the good old days when I dreaded setting Season Passes on my HR10-250 and having to make sure I had PLENTY of time to kill waiting for many, many *minutes* (not seconds) for the SP to set and get control of the unit back. What a joy that WASN'T!!!


AMEN to that brother!!!

You might as well stop everything and go fix a sandwich and come back laaaater.....


----------



## Steve

JLucPicard said:


> Every time the conversation turns to "The HR2x's are sluggish and slow" and "TiVo is the best unit on the planet", I can't help but harken back to the good old days when I dreaded setting Season Passes on my HR10-250 and having to make sure I had PLENTY of time to kill waiting for many, many *minutes* (not seconds) for the SP to set and get control of the unit back. What a joy that WASN'T!!!


Something TiVo finally addressed with the version 6.x update. Re-prioritizing my 35+ Season's Pass list went from literally minutes (under version 3.x) to seconds. I thought that was a remarkable piece of re-programming, given the 166mhz processor and limited memory available in those old HR10-250's.

One of my biggest complaints about the HR2x platform is that, unlike the TiVo, after making changes to the PRIORITIZER, or adding new SL's or AUTORECORDS, the TO DO LIST doesn't immediately update with all showings in the current GUIDE data. You sometimes have to check TO DO days after to make sure changes you think you've made have registered. I'm hopeful DirecTV is working on this as we speak.


----------



## Syzygy

loudo said:


> What features does your unit have that don't work? I have two HR20-700s that work just fine...


Funny you should ask!  I just happen to have a recent list on this forum that I update from time to time:

*A compendium of HR2x software problems*


----------



## loudo

Syzygy said:


> Funny you should ask!  I just happen to have a recent list on this forum that I update from time to time:
> 
> *A compendium of HR2x software problems*


Looking over your list. I don't see many things that *DON'T* work, but I do see many features you would like to see, that other units may have that the HR2X units don't have, or features that you would like to see improved on.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Nicholsen said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> I think this is funny, but probably not in the way you intended. Perhaps you should have just said written "YOU LIE!" in bold at the top of your post.


Everyone can spot a naysayer a mile away....there are 3 of you in this thread...and all have scored big on people's ignore lists.

You guys just can't stand the fact that the HR2x series DVRs are better than anything Tivo, and that people just don't see things in your "nothing works right" fantasy world.

Congrats.

Talk to the hand.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Folks, let's keep it civil. I'm cranky and would love an excuse to close this thread


----------



## pfp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You guys just can't stand the fact that the HR2x series DVRs are better than anything Tivo


Excuse me!
I don't think so.

A few years back I would have run to a Tivo if they had an mpeg4 version. Today the HR2x has gotten good enough that I *probably* wouldn't throw away the $$$ I have invested in them to switch to Tivo.

If I were starting from scratch I would most likely go with a Tivo vs the HR2x (the only reason I can't say definitely is because we have not seen the Tivo yet).

In my opinion Tivo just gets it and generally makes a better, easier to use product.


----------



## Sixto

DirecTiVo HD 2.0 = Series 3 + PIG + HD GUI = Cool

DirecTiVo HD 2.0 = Series 3 - Lots of Stuff = Not so Cool

Will wait to see the real comparison.


----------



## rey_1178

Syzygy said:


> Well, that's fine, then. We'll let the HR2x off the hook and say it's a good little box if someone can find a worse GUI out there somewhere. :grin:


----------



## pfp

Syzygy said:


> Well, that's fine, then. We'll let the HR2x off the hook and say it's a good little box if someone can find a worse GUI out there somewhere. :grin:


Easy - SA 8300. 
No contest there whatsoever!


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

pfp said:


> Easy - SA 8300.
> No contest there whatsoever!


How about the first-gen TV Guide menus off the Motorola DCT-2000 boxes where you could only see 30 minutes of guide data at a time?


----------



## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> Well, that's fine, then. We'll let the HR2x off the hook and say it's a good little box if someone can find a worse GUI out there somewhere. :grin:


And thats why you and i will never agree.. The gui on the tivo is AWFUL for me.. Looks like a 5 years olds toy or something, and it treats me like a kid too.. I hate that. The HR is far more intuitive and easier to navigate, and doesn't treat me like I'm an idiot.

Tivo has ONE thing I like better,and its marginal at best (swivel search) They have a huge amount of work to do before I'd ever consider them on par.. I am very much looking forward to seing it in action in a few months though. I think its great to have 2 platforms out.... Lots of people will prefer Tivo, more will prefer HR, but there will never be a consensus for just one or the other... SO I applaud Directv for trying to satisfy everyone by creating options!


----------



## Lord Vader

Stuart Sweet said:


> Folks, let's keep it civil. I'm cranky and would love an excuse to close this thread


Ah, the Dark Side I feel in you. Good, good!

!Devil_lol


----------



## kiljoy

What I like about the TiVo GUI is the fact that the functions I want are front and center and the extemporaneous features I don't need and don't use are put into the background. I don't mind the DirecTV interface too much, but I do find that certain things seem to just be not where I want them and I think a lot of that is due to feature creep and desire to maintain commonality with their non-DVR line.

That's kind of what I meant when I said that the HR2x's didn't embrace their DVR-ness. With the TiVo, you sit down, hit the TiVo or List button (god I loved that List button) and you picked a show and watched. The list didn't feel cluttered, it was easy to organize, and it was straightforward whereas I feel like the HR2x is throwing too much data at me poorly. For instance, the show synopses are terrible unless you go to the main info screen so why limit what I can see in the list by showing it to me? I know others like the PIG (I hate it), but again I don't want to see what's on right now--_that's why I bought a DVR!_ Show me a better listing of my recordings!

That being said, the HR2x has a lot of great features that are buried and unintuitive. I just don't see DirecTV ever engineering a UI that isn't very similar to a nonDVR. I can see why some prefer this, and I can even see why inkahauts dislikes the TiVo UI, but I think if the price for elegance and simplicity is fewer features, it's one that I'm willing to pay.

Tony


----------



## wingrider01

Syzygy said:


> Well, that's fine, then. We'll let the HR2x off the hook and say it's a good little box if someone can find a worse GUI out there somewhere. :grin:


easy. TIVO units:hurah:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Syzygy said:


> Funny you should ask!  I just happen to have a recent list on this forum that I update from time to time:
> 
> *A compendium of HR2x software problems*


Have you updated it since receiving the latest NR?

MIke


----------



## Steve

inkahauts said:


> [...]Lots of people will prefer Tivo, more will prefer HR, but there will never be a consensus for just one or the other... SO I applaud Directv for trying to satisfy everyone by creating options!


Precisely. Let's enjoy this thread for what it is... a TiVo "anticipation" thread and stop accusing folks of being biased, because guess what? The new MPEG-4 Sat TiVo will be an exclusive DirecTV product too. Feature comparisons will be inevitable, but there's no reason they can't be discussed in an objective manner.


----------



## Lee L

kiljoy said:


> What I like about the TiVo GUI is the fact that the functions I want are front and center and the extemporaneous features I don't need and don't use are put into the background. I don't mind the DirecTV interface too much, but I do find that certain things seem to just be not where I want them and I think a lot of that is due to feature creep and desire to maintain commonality with their non-DVR line.
> 
> That's kind of what I meant when I said that the HR2x's didn't embrace their DVR-ness. With the TiVo, you sit down, hit the TiVo or List button (god I loved that List button) and you picked a show and watched. The list didn't feel cluttered, it was easy to organize, and it was straightforward whereas I feel like the HR2x is throwing too much data at me poorly. For instance, the show synopses are terrible unless you go to the main info screen so why limit what I can see in the list by showing it to me? I know others like the PIG (I hate it), but again I don't want to see what's on right now--_that's why I bought a DVR!_ Show me a better listing of my recordings!
> 
> That being said, the HR2x has a lot of great features that are buried and unintuitive. I just don't see DirecTV ever engineering a UI that isn't very similar to a nonDVR. I can see why some prefer this, and I can even see why inkahauts dislikes the TiVo UI, but I think if the price for elegance and simplicity is fewer features, it's one that I'm willing to pay.
> 
> Tony


Exactly. I have thought many times that the DirecTV HR2x line seems like a reciever designed by people who are used to designing boxes meant to watch live TV and oh by the way they added DVR onto that. TiVo was written from the ground up to watch recorded things and the live TV operation is almost an add on, just because the hardware was already in the box anyway.

Much of the various opinions on the boxes comes from this major distinction and how the boxes jive with how people watch TV themselves.

TiVo had its issues and so does the HR2x line. Neither is perfect and anyone saying that one is 100% without question better than the other is being pretty closed minded to the facts. I did think the TiVO was a little cartoonish in its GUI, but the layout of the menu there seemed to make sense to me as to what was where. I have no problem operating the HR20s I have, but the menu design is not that intuitive, IMO.

Also, I think the one major advantage on TiVo is the handling of iffy guide data. It was better back in the day when TiVo actually went through the crap given out by Tribune and made it better, but even being fed the same exact data set, the TiVos seem to have fewer issues than the HR20. DirecTV has improved this, but it is not equal to TiVo just yet.

Now, on the other hand, it does seem like the HR20s are a little quicker with last minute guide changes, probably because of their roots as live TV boxes. The TiVo did not check for updates as often as it seems like the HR20 does and sometimes things liek presidential addresses and such seem to cause fewer problems for me now.

At any rate, I will definitely check out the TiVo system when it is available, but at least with the improvemnts DirecTV has made over the last few years I no longer feel like I *have* to change.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Lee L said:


> Exactly. I have thought many times that the DirecTV HR2x line seems like a reciever designed by people who are used to designing boxes meant to watch live TV and oh by the way they added DVR onto that. TiVo was written from the ground up to watch recorded things and the live TV operation is almost an add on, just because the hardware was already in the box anyway.
> 
> Much of the various opinions on the boxes comes from this major distinction and how the boxes jive with how people watch TV themselves.
> 
> TiVo had its issues and so does the HR2x line. Neither is perfect and anyone saying that one is 100% without question better than the other is being pretty closed minded to the facts. I did think the TiVO was a little cartoonish in its GUI, but the layout of the menu there seemed to make sense to me as to what was where. I have no problem operating the HR20s I have, but the menu design is not that intuitive, IMO.
> 
> Also, I think the one major advantage on TiVo is the handling of iffy guide data. It was better back in the day when TiVo actually went through the crap given out by Tribune and made it better, but even being fed the same exact data set, the TiVos seem to have fewer issues than the HR20. DirecTV has improved this, but it is not equal to TiVo just yet.
> 
> Now, on the other hand, it does seem like the HR20s are a little quicker with last minute guide changes, probably because of their roots as live TV boxes. The TiVo did not check for updates as often as it seems like the HR20 does and sometimes things liek presidential addresses and such seem to cause fewer problems for me now.
> 
> At any rate, I will definitely check out the TiVo system when it is available, but at least with the improvemnts DirecTV has made over the last few years I no longer feel like I *have* to change.


Also tivo started before the cable and sat dvrs when out there.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lee L said:


> TiVo had its issues and so does the HR2x line. Neither is perfect and anyone saying that one is 100% without question better than the other is being pretty closed minded to the facts. I did think the TiVO was a little cartoonish in its GUI, but the layout of the menu there seemed to make sense to me as to what was where. I have no problem operating the HR20s I have, but the menu design is not that intuitive, IMO.


Good points.


----------



## gregjones

Syzygy said:


> But they've had rights to a presumably better database for many months now; when is it going to get used?


And this is where you lose credibility. How many months should it take to completely replace a database engine in a consumer product distributed to millions of paying customers?

Some of us have our day jobs designing software for real people in the real world, where their money is in play. If you wrote (other than freelancing or blogging) about any actively developed OS, you should know that the central performance bottleneck with any possibility of improvement is the database. It is also the riskiest replacement because all DVR functions are dependent in one way or another. Other tasks (recording, decoding, etc.) are for the most part hardware driven at a constant rate.

And, by the way, I have yet to have my HR20 miss a single recording unless there was a physical reason for it. No, I don't expect it to be able to get perfect reception as a hurricane is passing overhead. Yes, I do actually look at the prioritizer and make sure *I* told it the right thing to do. I had a TiVo and loved it at the time. But I moved on. Right now, this TiVo can be viewed as perfect because it cannot yet fail in the real world. So how about we quit comparing a product in use in millions of homes with one that has yet to exist.


----------



## gregjones

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess since my 10 year old grandson has no problems using the HRx series units at all - including trickplay....he must be above average compared to the typical Tivo user.
> 
> As for your *claims* of a sluggish UI.....!rolling!rolling!rolling


My 5-year-old is phenomenal with the DVR. I do not let her watch that much TV, but when she is allowed she can use the DVR as well as many adults (better than most). The parental controls work flawlessly and she can skip through the short segments between the main shows.

It doesn't require a manual. It requires deciding what to do instead of assuming all DVRs are TiVos. Folks that never used a different DVR don't assume that they all have TiVo's eccentricities, or Scientific Atlanta's, or Motorola's.


----------



## gregjones

Steve said:


> Something TiVo finally addressed with the version 6.x update. Re-prioritizing my 35+ Season's Pass list went from literally minutes (under version 3.x) to seconds. I thought that was a remarkable piece of re-programming, given the 166mhz processor and limited memory available in those old HR10-250's.
> 
> One of my biggest complaints about the HR2x platform is that, unlike the TiVo, after making changes to the PRIORITIZER, or adding new SL's or AUTORECORDS, the TO DO LIST doesn't immediately update with all showings in the current GUIDE data. You sometimes have to check TO DO days after to make sure changes you think you've made have registered. I'm hopeful DirecTV is working on this as we speak.


You can wait for it to update before letting you do anything else (and complain that it is slow) or you can let it do these changes in the background and get response back (and complain that it didn't update the list immediately). I prefer the second, by far. You cannot have both.


----------



## gregjones

pfp said:


> Easy - SA 8300.
> No contest there whatsoever!


The only variation in just how bad a DVR this is depends on which software version you run. The best software for the SA8300 is horrible. The worst should be criminal.

Those actually do fail to record shows that are clearly labeled. Prioritization is almost a side effect and the interface actually *IS* as bad as the fanboys claim the HR2x or TiVo is (according to the cult to which they belong). I had one of these during the brief time period when it was the only way to record HD in my area. It was almost worse than having nothing at all.


----------



## gregjones

kiljoy said:


> I just don't see DirecTV ever engineering a UI that isn't very similar to a nonDVR.


Agree or disagree, they have a fairly compelling reason for this. When the interface for the HR2x was designed, most people didn't have DVRs. Most had never even seen one. TiVo has one set of products: DVRs. DirecTV was aiming to make people with non-DVRs feel at home. They wanted them to feel that DVR was an extra feature on their familiar boxes. DirecTV wanted people to transition from a DirecTV receiver to a DirecTV DVR and not see a huge change in interaction. This is appropriate for growing a customer base without a huge learning curve.

Many that liked the TiVo interface hate the approach. But there were many more customers that had never owned a DVR but had a DirecTV receiver than there were TiVo or DirecTiVo owners. They went for the larger audience. The folks on the forum here are largely early adopters of technology. We are specifically NOT the target audience.


----------



## Steve

gregjones said:


> You can wait for it to update before letting you do anything else (and complain that it is slow) or you can let it do these changes in the background and get response back (and complain that it didn't update the list immediately).


When a user makes a change, I believe the normal expectation is to see the result of the change immediately, and not to have to come back to the unit hours or days later to see if their re-prioritizing, e.g., had the intended results.



> I prefer the second, by far. You cannot have both.


You can have both. The HR10-250 6.x update proved TO DO can be updated quickly with a similar amount of raw GUIDE data on a box with 1/2 the CPU speed and 1/4 of the on-board memory. IIRC, re-prioritizing 35 season's passes took about 15-30 seconds to completely update TO DO. _(Perhaps those who still have an HR10-250 can confirm this is still the case.)_

All this said, I am pretty sure DirecTV is working on this, because I have noticed an improvement in the speed of some updates to the TO DO list, but not all. E.g., scheduling new SL's or AUTORECORDS now immediately populates a solid week of shows (though not all).

Conflict resolution is still problematic tho. Shifting shows around in the prioritizer to resolve conflicts still provides no immediate feedback in TO DO, as far as I can see.


----------



## Syzygy

MicroBeta said:


> Have you updated it [*A compendium of HR2x software problems*] since receiving the latest NR?


Not yet. I'm not sure which of those items have been fixed/improved. I do know one item I _should_ change...

Old: • History list gives incorrect reasons for a show's cancellation or deletion
New: • History list gives _incomplete or cryptic_ reasons for a show's cancellation or deletion

... and I should add on old issue:

• History list doesn't tell what date/time a show was deleted

It would be helpful if others, like yourself, would report fixes by adding to that thread, or challenge me to retest any of the items on my list.


----------



## Doug Brott

Nicholsen said:


> I will be honest, I anticipate version 1.0 of the new TiVo software will likely have a few serious bugs. I also anticipate they will be diligent in getting bug fixes out the door.


I anticipate this as well, but I also anticipate blame to be directed @ DIRECTV. We just need to remember that this project is basically TiVo's project with blessing from DIRECTV (and technical help where applicable). If it starts out on the wrong foot, it won't be because of DIRECTV. Granted if the issue is in the delivery of the receivers, then that will be DIRECTVs fault as DIRECTV will be handling distribution (according to the announcements we've seen).

If there is a technical problem with how the receiver works (non-hardware issue), then that's all on TiVo .. but I'm sure DIRECTV will get the blame.


----------



## Syzygy

Syzygy said:


> *But they've had rights to a presumably better database for many months now; when is it going to get used?* (To hull with re-indexing and re-tabling.)
> 
> And we've all been waiting to see much more priority given to incoming keypresses and to the internal micro-clock. For many months. But interrupt handling is worse now, with 0x034C, than it has ever been.





gregjones said:


> And this is where you lose credibility. How many months should it take to completely replace a database engine in a consumer product distributed to millions of paying customers?
> 
> Some of us have our day jobs designing software for real people in the real world, where their money is in play...


I'm a retired programmer with a lot of experience in GUI and database design and implementation. I realize how difficult it is to switch database engines. I haven't complained until now about the non-appearance of any news about D*'s new database engine; but it's been almost a year. Frankly , I'm beginning to think it's never going to happen.


> And, by the way, I have yet to have my HR20 miss a single recording unless there was a physical reason for it.


Once, last spring, I just happened to see in the Guide that a new ep of _Lost_ wasn't being recorded. Naturally I suspected I had goofed, so I pressed the Record key to see what conflicts it would reveal. Lo and behold, there were none, and a belated and truncated recording commenced. There was no show that had overflowed a minute or two into the current hour, I had not changed anything for at least a day before that, and the weather was clear. (Who knows how many times my HR21 has gotten away with skipping a recording because I wasn't on guard all the time?)


> So how about we quit comparing a product in use in millions of homes with one that has yet to exist.


I'm comparing the current HR2x to what it could (and should) be.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

All I can say in response to your post is, absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. How are you so sure that the new database technology isn't already there?


----------



## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> I anticipate [that the new TiVo software will likely have a few serious bugs] as well, but I also anticipate blame to be directed @ DIRECTV. We just need to remember that this project is basically TiVo's project with blessing from DIRECTV (and technical help where applicable). If it starts out on the wrong foot, it won't be because of DIRECTV. Granted if the issue is in the delivery of the receivers, then that will be DIRECTVs fault as DIRECTV will be handling distribution (according to the announcements we've seen).
> 
> If there is a technical problem with how the receiver works (non-hardware issue), then that's all on TiVo .. but I'm sure DIRECTV will get the blame.


Your view, and the fact that you repeated "DIRECTV will get the blame," reaffirms for all to see how closely allied (should I say wedded?) you are to DirecTV.

I, for one, would never imagine that anyone but TiVo is responsible for any defects in its software. I think no TiVoholic would, and I think you show a touch of paranoia when you predict that they'll blame D*. (I hope and expect that TiVo, not D*, will maintain the software and won't be subject to D*-imposed bottlenecks like having to get approval for technical changes.)

I realize that in the past people have accused D* of sabotaging the HR10-250 by changing the Guide data. Personally, I subscribe to Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

One thing I will blame D* for, if it happens: Any pollution of search results with unwanted channels or VOD programs. Especially: If there's no user-controlled CIG list, it'll be because of the D* marketers.


----------



## gregjones

Steve said:


> You can have both. The HR10-250 6.x update proved TO DO can be updated quickly with a similar amount of raw GUIDE data on a box with 1/2 the CPU speed and 1/4 of the on-board memory. IIRC, re-prioritizing 35 season's passes took about 15-30 seconds to completely update TO DO.


No, you can wait (for a short time or longer) to get feedback or return to what you were doing and have it performed in the background. TiVo chose to make you wait and see feedback. They then optimized the process so you waited for a shorter period of time. This is still not both.


----------



## Syzygy

Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can say in response to your post is, absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. How are you so sure that the new database technology isn't already there?


What are you saying, that they've _sneaked_ the new database engine in and called it "Under the hood"?

I think not and I hope not, because the 50-SL limit remains, and the UI is more sluggish now.


----------



## gregjones

Syzygy said:


> Your view, and the fact that you repeated "DIRECTV will get the blame," reaffirms for all to see how closely allied (should I say wedded?) you are to DirecTV.
> 
> I, for one, would never imagine that anyone but TiVo is responsible for any defects in its software. I think no TiVoholic would, and I think you show a touch of paranoia when you predict that they'll blame D*. (I hope and expect that TiVo, not D*, will maintain the software and won't be subject to D*-imposed bottlenecks like having to get approval for technical changes.)
> 
> I realize that in the past people have accused D* of sabotaging the HR10-250 by changing the Guide data. Personally, I subscribe to Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
> 
> One thing I will blame D* for, if it happens: Any pollution of search results with unwanted channels or VOD programs. Especially: If there's no user-controlled CIG list, it'll be because of the D* marketers.


As objectively as I can put this, many ignore TiVo's role in the previous DVR. TiVo wrote software that left an uncomfortable number of security holes. DirecTV seems to have made demands that some features (that would expose them to litigation) not be implemented on the DirecTiVo boxes. While the standalone TiVo boxes had a number of new features not on DirecTiVo boxes, DirecTV was blamed for holding up the updates. A number of these features would not have gotten by any mainstream management group in America. DirecTV was blamed by consumers over and over for these "failings."

Regarding search results, you may need to look at TiVo again. The TiVo software has a significant number of ad locations sprinkled throughout. I would not consider them a champion against forceful marketing.


----------



## gregjones

Syzygy said:


> What are you saying, that they've _sneaked_ the new database engine in and called it "Under the hood"?
> 
> I think not and I hope not, because the 50-SL limit remains, and the UI is more sluggish now.


Or they may have looked into it and found that in a production environment it was a bad fit. Maybe in further testing it failed to produce a significant improvement. Maybe it did not work well with other background processes.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> I anticipate this as well, but I also anticipate blame to be directed @ DIRECTV. We just need to remember that this project is basically TiVo's project with blessing from DIRECTV (and technical help where applicable). If it starts out on the wrong foot, it won't be because of DIRECTV. Granted if the issue is in the delivery of the receivers, then that will be DIRECTVs fault as DIRECTV will be handling distribution (according to the announcements we've seen).
> 
> If there is a technical problem with how the receiver works (non-hardware issue), then that's all on TiVo .. but I'm sure DIRECTV will get the blame.


D* supplies the board support package for the HR2x hardware platform. If D* had let Tivo bring their own hardware platform to the party, I would have agreed with your statement. It would be all on Tivo at that point. But since this is going onto a D* HR2x platform, D* is supplying the hardware and the hardware interface.

I completely agree that Tivo can mess this up on their own. But Tivo is dependent on D*'s BSP. D* can't be absolved in advance for all problems.


----------



## ffemtreed

gregjones said:


> As objectively as I can put this, many ignore TiVo's role in the previous DVR. TiVo wrote software that left an uncomfortable number of security holes. DirecTV seems to have made demands that some features (that would expose them to litigation) not be implemented on the DirecTiVo boxes. While the standalone TiVo boxes had a number of new features not on DirecTiVo boxes, DirecTV was blamed for holding up the updates. A number of these features would not have gotten by any mainstream management group in America. DirecTV was blamed by consumers over and over for these "failings."
> 
> Regarding search results, you may need to look at TiVo again. The TiVo software has a significant number of ad locations sprinkled throughout. I would not consider them a champion against forceful marketing.


Why is DTV the only provider who restricts these additional features of TIVO? Sorry, DTV loses out on this one. If it was such a liability other companies would have been getting sued by now.


----------



## Steve

gregjones said:


> [...]They then optimized the process so you waited for a shorter period of time. This is still not both.


In theory, correct. But hair-splitting, in this case, IMHO.  Waiting 15-30 seconds for TO DO to completely update is virtually real-time, when compared to hours or days later. That's what I'd like to see and what I think most folks intuitively expect. Make a change, see the result of that change.


----------



## joed32

RCY said:


> D* supplies the board support package for the HR2x hardware platform. If D* had let Tivo bring their own hardware platform to the party, I would have agreed with your statement. It would be all on Tivo at that point. But since this is going onto a D* HR2x platform, D* is supplying the hardware and the hardware interface.
> 
> I completely agree that Tivo can mess this up on their own. But Tivo is dependent on D*'s BSP. D* can't be absolved in advance for all problems.


Are you sure that it is going onto an HR2x platform or is it speculation. It may well be true but I haven't seen it announced yet.


----------



## Syzygy

gregjones said:


> As objectively as I can put this, many ignore TiVo's role in the previous DVR. TiVo wrote software that left an uncomfortable number of security holes. DirecTV seems to have made demands that some features (that would expose them to litigation) not be implemented on the DirecTiVo boxes. While the standalone TiVo boxes had a number of new features not on DirecTiVo boxes, DirecTV was blamed for holding up the updates. A number of these features would not have gotten by any mainstream management group in America. DirecTV was blamed by consumers over and over for these "failings."


Examples? (I'm in the dark here.)
• TiVo wrote software that left an uncomfortable number of security holes?
• A number of these [standalone TiVo boxes' new] features would not have gotten by any mainstream management group?

I do know of a great feature on the _old_ standalone TiVo box that D* killed on the HR10-250: Leonard Maltin's star ratings for movies. I can't imagine any reason for removing this feature, other than wishing to hide how awful some movies are (especially on the premium channels). By me, that's another thing that can be blamed on those evil marketers.


----------



## kymikes

RCY said:


> D* supplies the board support package for the HR2x hardware platform. If D* had let Tivo bring their own hardware platform to the party, I would have agreed with your statement. It would be all on Tivo at that point. But since this is going onto a D* HR2x platform, D* is supplying the hardware and the hardware interface.
> 
> I completely agree that Tivo can mess this up on their own. But Tivo is dependent on D*'s BSP. D* can't be absolved in advance for all problems.


I guess my question is why we need a spirited debate about who is "at fault" on a box that hasn't even had it's base hardware and features described, much less implemented. Come on guys, play nice!


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Your view, and the fact that you repeated "DIRECTV will get the blame," reaffirms for all to see how closely allied (should I say wedded?) you are to DirecTV.


You watch  .. On this I hope I am wrong, though. I'll be pleasantly surprised if blame (or praise) is appropriately placed.

I am not wedded to DIRECTV, but make no bones about it. I like the HR2x platform just as much as you like the TiVo platform. You say it like my ties to DIRECTV are a bad thing. I'd like to think that many people here benefit from the relationship .. even those folks that prefer TiVo.


----------



## Syzygy

Steve said:


> When a user makes a change, I believe the normal expectation is to see the result of the change immediately, and not to have to come back to the unit hours or days later to see if their re-prioritizing, e.g., had the intended results.
> 
> You can have both [pretty quick updating of the To Do List *and* no waiting until rescheduling is complete]. The HR10-250 6.x update proved TO DO can be updated quickly with a similar amount of raw GUIDE data on a box with 1/2 the CPU speed and 1/4 of the on-board memory. IIRC, re-prioritizing 35 season passes took about 15-30 seconds to completely update TO DO. *(Perhaps those who still have an HR10-250 can confirm this is still the case.)*
> 
> All this said, I am pretty sure DirecTV is working on this, because I have noticed an improvement in the speed of some updates to the TO DO list, but not all...


I still use an HR10-250. I agree that it takes only 15-30 seconds to return control to you _if you make only one or two changes_. But I often make between 3 and 10 changes at a time (partly because I expect to have to wait) and then it takes 1-3 minutes for "Please Wait" to go away. (I also have about 35 SPs on this box.)

BTW, I hate it when I accidentally press, say, Right when I meant to go in some other direction -- so easy to do with the peanut -- and I have to wait before I can resume reprioritizing.

Playing devil's advocate for just a bit: I'm not certain that TiVo ever managed to completely update the entire To Do List all the way out (11-13 days) _right away_ because I never checked that far out.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Syzygy said:


> What are you saying, that they've _sneaked_ the new database engine in and called it "Under the hood"?
> 
> I think not and I hope not, because the 50-SL limit remains, and the UI is more sluggish now.


If those are your only criteria for determining if there's been a massive overhaul of the database... perhaps you need to reassess.


----------



## Steve

Syzygy said:


> I still use an HR10-250. I agree that it takes only 15-30 seconds to return control to you _if you make only one or two changes_. But I often make between 3 and 10 changes at a time (partly because I expect to have to wait) and then it takes 1-3 minutes for "Please Wait" to go away. (I also have about 35 SPs on this box.)


Thanks for checking. I do remember that even changing one show's priorities could take a good 5 minutes or more under the 3.x s/w though and was delighted when it took under half a minute in 6.x. I remember thinking at the time it was an "order of magnitude" (10x or more) improvement.


Syzygy said:


> Playing devil's advocate for just a bit: I'm not certain that TiVo ever managed to completely update the entire To Do List all the way out (11-13 days) _right away_ because I never checked that far out.


Unless something's changed since May of '07 when I switched to HR2x's, if you check now, you'll see that the HR10 does as complete an update as the current GUIDE data will allow.


----------



## Syzygy

kymikes said:


> I guess my question is why we need a spirited debate about who is "at fault" on a box that hasn't even had it's base hardware and features described, much less implemented. Come on guys, play nice!


Well, Doug started it!


----------



## Doug Brott

RCY said:


> D* supplies the board support package for the HR2x hardware platform. If D* had let Tivo bring their own hardware platform to the party, I would have agreed with your statement. It would be all on Tivo at that point. But since this is going onto a D* HR2x platform, D* is supplying the hardware and the hardware interface.
> 
> I completely agree that Tivo can mess this up on their own. But Tivo is dependent on D*'s BSP. D* can't be absolved in advance for all problems.


Nice try, but if TiVo brought their own hardware DIRECTV would be blamed for not providing enough information to make it work .. Since my relationship is with DIRECTV, I do know that DIRECTV is doing their part in this. As for TiVo? I can't really say. If anyone from TiVo contacts me I'd be happy to discuss the current progress with them.


----------



## RCY

joed32 said:


> Are you sure that it is going onto an HR2x platform or is it speculation. It may well be true but I haven't seen it announced yet.


As I understand it, DirectTV will be supplying the hardware. Whether HR2x, HR3x, or HRxx, it will be a DirectTV platform. But I don't think anyone here really knows for sure.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

As a matter of fact, I'll say publicly that I've tried to make inroads at TiVo Inc. and was soundly rebuked.


----------



## Doug Brott

kymikes said:


> I guess my question is why we need a spirited debate about who is "at fault" on a box that hasn't even had it's base hardware and features described, much less implemented. Come on guys, play nice!





Syzygy said:


> Well, Doug started it!


Fair 'nuff ..


----------



## Syzygy

Stuart Sweet said:


> If those are your only criteria for determining if there's been a massive overhaul of the database... perhaps you need to reassess.


I think "the 50-SL limit remains, and the UI is more sluggish" are pretty darn good criteria. C'mon, dish! What are _your_ criteria?


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> Nice try, but if TiVo brought their own hardware DIRECTV would be blamed for not providing enough information to make it work


What try? You're saying the hardware interface support D* gives Tivo makes no difference?



Doug Brott said:


> .. Since my relationship is with DIRECTV, I do know that DIRECTV is doing their part in this. As for TiVo? I can't really say. If anyone from TiVo contacts me I'd be happy to discuss the current progress with them.


I have no relationship with either, so I don't have any dog in the fight. I can say from experience that if the BSP support is lacking, your application will suffer. Doesn't give Tivo a free pass. Personally, I find their interface a bit cartoonish, and I have no intention of paying extra for a DTivo over my DVR fee.


----------



## Doug Brott

RCY said:


> What try? You're saying the hardware interface support D* gives Tivo makes no difference?


No, it does make a difference and I'm sure that IF the new TiVo doesn't work well out of the gate that there will be a lot of finger pointing (in the forums) for this very reason.


----------



## Syzygy

RCY said:


> D* supplies the board support package for the HR2x hardware platform. If D* had let Tivo bring their own hardware platform to the party, I would have agreed with your statement. It would be all on Tivo at that point. But since this is going onto a D* HR2x platform, D* is supplying the hardware and the hardware interface...


But earlier in this thread: 


Tom Robertson said:


> The hardware will be the same that DirecTV is and/or will be using. We don't know if all the HR2x will run the new TiVo code or just select newer models.
> 
> But the entire software stack will be TiVo's configuration (with some [bits of code for] authentication from the manufacturers and NDS as required.)
> 
> So DirecTV's kernel likely won't be present--aside from they both will use Linux as the kernel anyway.


The [bits of code for] edit comes out of follow-up questions from me and Tom's replies.

Please try to reconcile these seemingly incompatible statements.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I believe it's simply "wait and see" time.

Tivo isn't at all the "end all" that some make it out to be, but on the other hand, some folks simply like that platform, which is OK too.

Stuart said it best:


Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can say in response to your post is, absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.


Somewhere in the first half of 2010, we'll likely see the first appearance of a new Tivo-based HD DVR from DirecTV.

For those who are Tivo-loyalists...this will likely make them happy, and reflect the next generation of that line of DVR. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. If it is like almost any other piece of electronics, the first cut will have some flaws....but that is to be expected.

Since DirecTV and Tivo are collaberating together on this - both have a vested interest in making it a success.

For the many other HD DVR users who are now used to and enjoy the HR DVR platform, we'll likely ocntinue to see advances in that technology as well.

So in the end....everyone ends up with a DVR experience to quench their viewing pallet.

No losers in this - only differences in what satisfies their taste.


----------



## veryoldschool

No matter how much/many posts I read about this, it always seems to come down to a "Ford verses Chevy", or "Apple verses PC" or...
I too have read that the Tivo will be software loaded on DirecTV hardware. The two won't be interchangeable due to the bootloader, so we won't see a Tivo "upgrade" to receivers in the field.
This seems to equate to Apple writing software for a PC platform.
"I'd guess" Tivo fans will blame DirecTV for anything wrong, as they love Tivo and therefore "it must be DirecTV" that caused it [as Apple fans would blame the PC].


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Syzygy said:


> But earlier in this thread:
> 
> The [bits of code for] edit comes out of follow-up questions from me and Tom's replies.
> 
> Please try to reconcile these seemingly incompatible statements.


I'm not quite sure what there is to reconcile. What I get out of both statements as well as what's been said publicly is that the hardware and all the drivers for that hardware will be supplied _through_ DIRECTV. I say "through" because there are off-the-shelf device drivers as well as the Linux kernel itself. These items are not written by DIRECTV but are expected to be supplied by DIRECTV to TiVo Inc.

Also I would expect DIRECTV to provide the routines for decrypting the programming that comes from the satellite.

Everything that runs at the user level is expected to be coded by TiVo Inc. and DIRECTV will not be responsible for any of that.


----------



## Shades228

Syzygy said:


> I think "the 50-SL limit remains, and the UI is more sluggish" are pretty darn good criteria. C'mon, dish! What are _your_ criteria?


More then 50 SL is a waste to more people, than not, so this isn't a system flaw it's just something you don't like.

Slugish UI is again opinion. Everyone wants everything to be faster when it comes to technology. New people who get new cell phones all the time complain that it's not much faster than the previous one. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Will there always be someone who wants it to be faster? Yes, but I wouldn't say that it's a crippled system that is as bad as you are saying.

Hopefully though the TiVo comes out and is all you want it to be.


----------



## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> What I like about the TiVo GUI is the fact that the functions I want are front and center and the extemporaneous features I don't need and don't use are put into the background.


At least for me the HR2x UI is pretty self explanatory. Hit the Menu button and it's all right there, just like the Tivo menu. Maybe I'm just used to it.



> That's kind of what I meant when I said that the HR2x's didn't embrace their DVR-ness. With the TiVo, you sit down, hit the TiVo or List button (god I loved that List button) and you picked a show and watched. The list didn't feel cluttered, it was easy to organize, and it was straightforward whereas I feel like the HR2x is throwing too much data at me poorly.


I'm confused by this. Just like a Tivo on the HR2x you sit down and hit the List button and all your recorded programs are right there. Just like Tivo. I don't know what's cluttered or disorganized about it since the playlist looks exactly like the Tivo playlist to me. Lists out my programs, in folders as needed, sorted by most recent record date. Just like I did on a Tivo. Maybe Tivo has more sort options that you use that the HR2x doesn't, maybe that's what I'm missing.


----------



## gregjones

ffemtreed said:


> Why is DTV the only provider who restricts these additional features of TIVO? Sorry, DTV loses out on this one. If it was such a liability other companies would have been getting sued by now.


The same reason DirecTV is the only provider not constantly in court.


----------



## gregjones

Steve said:


> In theory, correct. But hair-splitting, in this case, IMHO.  Waiting 15-30 seconds for TO DO to completely update is virtually real-time, when compared to hours or days later. That's what I'd like to see and what I think most folks intuitively expect. Make a change, see the result of that change.


Then you miss the beginning of the program you were planning to watch by 15-30 seconds. The primary purpose is to see the content. Keeping the user from the content, in my opinion, is counterproductive.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

> ffemtreed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is DTV the only provider who restricts these additional features of TIVO? Sorry, DTV loses out on this one. If it was such a liability other companies would have been getting sued by now.
> 
> 
> 
> The same reason DirecTV is the only provider not constantly in court.
Click to expand...

bingo...


----------



## gregjones

Syzygy said:


> Examples? (I'm in the dark here.)
> • TiVo wrote software that left an uncomfortable number of security holes?
> • A number of these [standalone TiVo boxes' new] features would not have gotten by any mainstream management group?
> 
> I do know of a great feature on the _old_ standalone TiVo box that D* killed on the HR10-250: Leonard Maltin's star ratings for movies. I can't imagine any reason for removing this feature, other than wishing to hide how awful some movies are (especially on the premium channels). By me, that's another thing that can be blamed on those evil marketers.


Look at the number of "add-ons" for the old TiVo boxes. These were unauthorized software that often aimed to circumvent the rights management in place on the box. The standalone TiVos had tons of these features that were allowed to coexist with later software releases. The DirecTV units didn't get later software releases on the same timeline, possibly in an attempt to close these holes.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think you're right, Mr. Jones, and of course we're all speculating... but my speculation is that none of these third-party modifications will work with the new DIRECTV TiVo.


----------



## Steve

gregjones said:


> Then you miss the beginning of the program you were planning to watch by 15-30 seconds. The primary purpose is to see the content. Keeping the user from the content, in my opinion, is counterproductive.


Guess we'll agree to disagree, then.  To me, having to check and re-check TODO hours and days later to see if the changes I made "took" seems counterproductive... especially if my changes created an issue I wasn't aware of, and one of my shows didn't record!


----------



## cartrivision

Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can say in response to your post is, absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. How are you so sure that the new database technology isn't already there?


Unfortunately, I'm with Stuart. I have long suspected that the new database engine is already in there.

I think that the new database engine went in earlier this year, coincident with the performance of the HR2x performance taking a very sudden and notoriously huge turn for the worse.

I think that earlier this year after one very notable software release where playlist item deletes suddenly started taking 30 seconds or longer to complete and other things on the HR2xs became sluggishly slow... that was the day that the new database engine was unleashed on us. Despite the tweaking that has improved things from that initial huge drop in performance, it now seems that benefits of switching to the new engine do not and will not include an increase in performance.... because many months later, performance is still significantly worse than it was before that suspected database engine switch.


----------



## Doug Brott

bonscott87 said:


> I'm confused by this. Just like a Tivo on the HR2x you sit down and hit the List button and all your recorded programs are right there. Just like Tivo. I don't know what's cluttered or disorganized about it since the playlist looks exactly like the Tivo playlist to me. Lists out my programs, in folders as needed, sorted by most recent record date. Just like I did on a Tivo. Maybe Tivo has more sort options that you use that the HR2x doesn't, maybe that's what I'm missing.


The only difference that I recall is that TiVo returns to the same position on the list whereas the HR2x always starts at the top of the list.


----------



## cartrivision

Doug Brott said:


> The only difference that I recall is that TiVo returns to the same position on the list whereas the HR2x always starts at the top of the list.


That seemingly little difference is actually a really big difference for me between Tivo and the HR2x.

Returning to the top of the playlist when exiting out of playback mode makes very little sense. In that situation, I almost always find myself scrolling back to where I last was in the playlist, which can be a real PITA with the very large merged "all" playlists under MRV. If I was ten pages down in a playlist before I started playing something, there is a good reason for that.... I wasn't interested in playing anything in the first ten pages of the playlist at this time, so why am I returned back to the top of the playlist ten pages away from what I had just previously paged down to get to an area in the playlist that I _was_ interested in.

It's little details like that that Tivo did very well and that DirecTV seems to be completely unaware of and completely unwilling (or without the resources) to fix after they did it "wrong" in the first place.


----------



## Syzygy

cartrivision said:


> ... I think that the new database engine went in earlier this year, coincident with the performance of the HR2x performance taking a very sudden and notoriously huge turn for the worse.
> 
> I think that earlier this year after one very notable software release where playlist item deletes suddenly started taking 30 seconds or longer to complete and other things on the HR2xs became sluggishly slow... that was the day that the new database engine was unleashed on us. Despite the tweaking that has improved things from that initial huge drop in performance, it now seems that benefits of switching to the new engine do not and will not include an increase in performance.... because many months later, performance is still significantly worse than it was before that suspected database engine switch.


This is a _very_ depressing theory. If it were fact, it would suggest massive incompetence on D*'s part, from whoever decided to make the database-engine switch -- presumably after seeing preliminary *dis*improvement -- all the way down to the lowliest coder (like I was once ). Even though I often bash all those people collectively, I'd really hate to think they were _that_ abysmally clueless.


----------



## MarkEHansen

I have an HR23-700 and when I'm finished viewing a program from the play list, I press <stop>, which takes me back to the play list with the current program still highlighted.

I can then just press <delete> (the red button I think - I have it mapped on my universal remote) and the recording is deleted.

Perhaps it works differently if you play a recording to the end, but I just never get that far. The recording is always longer than the program and when the program is done, I <stop> then <delete>.

I'm always left in the list at the same position I started (although after I delete the entry, it highlights the next entry in the list - which isn't necessarily the most appropriate).


----------



## Drew2k

If I were to move to the "new" DIRECTV TiVo box, it would have to address a few things I hate about it, and incorporate some DIRECTV DVR*Plus features that I love into it ...

I had the HDVR2 and the HR10-250 and have always hated the TiVo peanut remote. It's symmetrical shape made it too easy to be holding it in the dark with the wrong end pointing at the receiver. Hated it.

I also hated that on the TiVo if you recorded the live buffer and stopped the recording, you lost the buffer. I love that this doesn't happen with DIRECTV. 

I also hated that if you were surfing on one tuner and happened to pass a channel that was on the other tuner, the TiVo swapped tuners without telling you and you ended up losing the channel you were buffering. I'm loving that DIRECTV doesn't do that - I can even have the same channel on both tuners if I wanted to...

I hated TiVo suggestions and thumbs and the boop-boop sounds. Easy enough to turn them off, so I guess I should really complain about this, but why not.

I hated that if I wanted to manage my TiVo season passes or To Do List or run a search, I couldn't continue to watch live TV or a program from the playlist. I love that the DVR*Plus allows this.

I hated that the TiVo buffer was 30 minutes - DIRECTV's is 90.

There were a couple of things I favored on the TiVo:

I loved the TiVo shortcuts to get to search and the To Do List and Season Pass manager, and hope someday to have a similar set of shortcuts on the DIRECTV line.

I loved that the TiVo Wishlist screen had an option to run all searches at once and show the top 10 matches from EACH saved search on a single screen. I again wish DIRECTV could do something similar.

I also regularly used the TiVo List Guide and wish DIRECTV would make it faster to use their "List" guide (scroll left int he guide and press INFO), and from that result screen allow quick changes to the next channel (RED and GREEN maybe?)

The only other thing that TiVo does that I wish DIRECTV would do is update the Info Banner to show channel information about the alternate tuner. TiVo does this and lets the user swap tuners directly from the Info Banner.

But overall, I still wouldn't trade the current HR2x for any HD TiVo until I know the full feature set and have my "hates" addressed.


----------



## cartrivision

Syzygy said:


> This is a _very_ depressing theory. If it were fact, it would suggest massive incompetence on D*'s part, from whoever decided to make the database-engine switch -- presumably after seeing preliminary *dis*improvement -- all the way down to the lowliest coder (like I was once ). Even though I often bash all those people collectively, I'd really hate to think they were _that_ abysmally clueless.


If you look at the initial press release from DirecTV and the database company, it talked more about the database product enabling a common code base to be used on both disk based and diskless hardware, rather than any great performance improvements that the new database software would provide... talk about performance improvement came mostly from the speculation of posters in this forum as I reall... but if that new database system is the reason why we have actually suffered the significant decrease in performance that has occurred compared to how it was a year or more ago, then at the very least, there was not a proper level engineering expertise employed when evaluating and implementing such a change.


----------



## cartrivision

MarkEHansen said:


> I have an HR23-700 and when I'm finished viewing a program from the play list, I press <stop>, which takes me back to the play list with the current program still highlighted.
> 
> I can then just press <delete> (the red button I think - I have it mapped on my universal remote) and the recording is deleted.
> 
> Perhaps it works differently if you play a recording to the end, but I just never get that far. The recording is always longer than the program and when the program is done, I <stop> then <delete>.
> 
> I'm always left in the list at the same position I started (although after I delete the entry, it highlights the next entry in the list - which isn't necessarily the most appropriate).


I'll have to try that. I never use the stop button, I always use the EXIT button, but even if the stop button returns to the previous position in the playlist where the current playback was initiated, that only partially solves the problem at hand. Pressing LIST during playback should also return you to that same last position, as should selecting delete/don't delete when playback stops because it was played until the end of the recording.


----------



## Nicholsen

My HR21-100 failed to record Oz on the 101 last night because ...

"a broadcast update did not arrive in time. (13)" 

My box remains sluggish, now it is missing a series recording (again).

This is unsatisfactory. :nono2:

These are the kind of problems the TiVo did not present. It recorded dependably. Number one thing I look for in a DVR.


----------



## wingrider01

Nicholsen said:


> My HR21-100 failed to record Oz on the 101 last night because ...
> 
> "a broadcast update did not arrive in time. (13)"
> 
> My box remains sluggish, now it is missing a series recording (again).
> 
> This is unsatisfactory. :nono2:
> 
> These are the kind of problems the TiVo did not present. It recorded dependably. Number one thing I look for in a DVR.


Sorry, not everyone expiernces what you state, had so many issues with the TIVOS that the kids and wife where overjoyed when the two main died a horrible death and where replaced by the HR2X boxes, the last tive unit I have is out in the garage hooked up to a 16 in SD tv to supply noise when I am working on restoring my Norton.


----------



## Lee L

cartrivision said:


> I'll have to try that. I never use the stop button, I always use the EXIT button, but even if the stop button returns to the previous position in the playlist where the current playback was initiated, that only partially solves the problem at hand. Pressing LIST during playback should also return you to that same last position, as should selecting delete/don't delete when playback stops because it was played until the end of the recording.


Exactly, it sould perform the same way all the time.


----------



## kiljoy

bonscott87 said:


> At least for me the HR2x UI is pretty self explanatory. Hit the Menu button and it's all right there, just like the Tivo menu. Maybe I'm just used to it.


It's _all_ right there, which is what I'm saying. I don't want it _all_, I want to just go to the DVR stuff.

But you're right about just being used to what we're used to.



> I'm confused by this. Just like a Tivo on the HR2x you sit down and hit the List button and all your recorded programs are right there. Just like Tivo. I don't know what's cluttered or disorganized about it since the playlist looks exactly like the Tivo playlist to me. Lists out my programs, in folders as needed, sorted by most recent record date. Just like I did on a Tivo. Maybe Tivo has more sort options that you use that the HR2x doesn't, maybe that's what I'm missing.


But it's not _just_ a listing of programs, which is my whole point. It's a listing of the first programs, a useless synopsis of whatever's highlighted, tabs that seem to serve no purpose, and a display of whatever is on live TV. With all of that, I'm left with five (or six, can't remember) lines of data that I want, two lines of data that I don't want, one line of tabs I don't need, and a display of something that I'm trying to stop watching _which was the whole point of accessing this screen in the first place!_ I do like how the HR2x UI expands the folders without going to separate screen, but it sucks at the same time because there's not enough room for actual listings to make the folder expansion a worthwhile exercise.

It's more than just the list screen, that was just an easy target.


gregjones said:


> kiljoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't see DirecTV ever engineering a UI that isn't very similar to a nonDVR.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree or disagree, they have a fairly compelling reason for this. When the interface for the HR2x was designed, most people didn't have DVRs. Most had never even seen one. TiVo has one set of products: DVRs. DirecTV was aiming to make people with non-DVRs feel at home. They wanted them to feel that DVR was an extra feature on their familiar boxes. DirecTV wanted people to transition from a DirecTV receiver to a DirecTV DVR and not see a huge change in interaction. This is appropriate for growing a customer base without a huge learning curve.
> 
> Many that liked the TiVo interface hate the approach. But there were many more customers that had never owned a DVR but had a DirecTV receiver than there were TiVo or DirecTiVo owners. They went for the larger audience. The folks on the forum here are largely early adopters of technology. We are specifically NOT the target audience.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt their logic for choosing to have commonality with their nonDVRs and in fact I'd say given the vast differences between the way one uses a set-top box versus a DVR DirecTV has done a wonderful job in making the UI of both functional. It's obviously the right thing to do in their position and given the breadth of their product line, and they've done an exemplary job marrying two disparate UIs.

I want something that's a DVR first and foremost, though. I want my UI to be geared first toward pushing the recording and playback options to the center. There was another post a few pages back by Lee L who summed it up nicely:


Lee L said:


> Exactly. I have thought many times that the DirecTV HR2x line seems like a reciever designed by people who are used to designing boxes meant to watch live TV and oh by the way they added DVR onto that. TiVo was written from the ground up to watch recorded things and the live TV operation is almost an add on, just because the hardware was already in the box anyway.
> 
> Much of the various opinions on the boxes comes from this major distinction and how the boxes jive with how people watch TV themselves.


I can count the number of times I've watched live TV in the last decade on my fingers so it's obvious which approach I prefer. If I was a channel-surfer or couch potato, though, I would heavily prefer the HR2x as it's a much better device for someone who wants to watch live TV. It's not even close.

Tony


----------



## kiljoy

cartrivision said:


> I'll have to try that. I never use the stop button, I always use the EXIT button, but even if the stop button returns to the previous position in the playlist where the current playback was initiated, that only partially solves the problem at hand. Pressing LIST during playback should also return you to that same last position, as should selecting delete/don't delete when playback stops because it was played until the end of the recording.


This reminds me of a question.

Why doesn't the HR2x do the TiVo thing where if it's in the final minutes of the recording when you hit anything taking you out of the show, it asks you if you want to keep or delete the show? It's really irritating to me to hit List, Stop, or Exit (and Exit shouldn't do anything during playback but I digress) to watch another show when one's almost done and then I have to manually delete the program I just finished? Even if just Stop called up the keep or delete dialog I'd be happy. Am I doing something wrong?

Tony


----------



## Steve

kiljoy said:


> Why doesn't the HR2x do the TiVo thing where if it's in the final minutes of the recording when you hit anything taking you out of the show, it asks you if you want to keep or delete the show? [...] Am I doing something wrong?


No. It's been on our Wish List for a while:

*Show "Delete / Don't Delete" popup when pressing EXIT in the last few minutes of a recording.*


----------



## Syzygy

kiljoy said:


> Am I doing something wrong?


OK, I'll say it even though the answer's implied in your question:

No, the *box* is doing something wrong. And by something, I mean more than 5 dozen things.  Please see:

*A compendium of HR2x software problems*

(And that list doesn't even include pure _wishes _like the one above.)


----------



## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> But it's not _just_ a listing of programs, which is my whole point. It's a listing of the first programs, a useless synopsis of whatever's highlighted, tabs that seem to serve no purpose, and a display of whatever is on live TV.


 So the Tivo doesn't show a synopsis of the highlighted program? I thought it did, but it's been a few years. In that case then to me (and my wife especially) the HR2x is far superior to the Tivo in the Playlist as with the program synopsis this makes it very easy to know what the episode actually is. My wife uses this all the time to tell which of her 30 CSI reruns she wants to watch. If that wasn't there she (and I) would be very frustrated.

And the PIG (live TV in the corner) is actually preferred for many people including us. Not so useful in the Playlist but very useful elsewhere. Very nice to keep watching a recorded hockey game and surf the guide or do searches, I HATE that Tivo makes you stop everything to do something as simple as search the guide. I did that just this past weekend, was watching a recorded game and remembered I saw it was a free Starz weekend so I pulled up the guide and searched for any movies to record. All the while the hockey game keeps going and I don't waste any time. Very nice.

I do agree that there should be an option to turn it off though.



> I can count the number of times I've watched live TV in the last decade on my fingers so it's obvious which approach I prefer. If I was a channel-surfer or couch potato, though, I would heavily prefer the HR2x as it's a much better device for someone who wants to watch live TV. It's not even close.


You and other have said this before and I just don't understand it. We never, ever watch Live TV other then Sunday Ticket. Everything is our recordings. First thing we do when we sit down is hit the list button and choose something. I just don't understand this notion that the HR2x is better or only good as a live TV watching receiver. It's just not the case. HR2x is no different then all those years we used Tivo.


----------



## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> This reminds me of a question.
> 
> Why doesn't the HR2x do the TiVo thing where if it's in the final minutes of the recording when you hit anything taking you out of the show, it asks you if you want to keep or delete the show? It's really irritating to me to hit List, Stop, or Exit (and Exit shouldn't do anything during playback but I digress) to watch another show when one's almost done and then I have to manually delete the program I just finished? Even if just Stop called up the keep or delete dialog I'd be happy. Am I doing something wrong?
> 
> Tony


Hmmmm, I just hit stop and choose Delete. Not that hard. Wife hits FFW until the Delete/Keep dialog comes up. Either way it's only 2 keypresses. Not much different then Tivo in terms of time or keypresses, just different.


----------



## Richierich

kiljoy said:


> Even if just Stop called up the keep or delete dialog I'd be happy. Am I doing something wrong?
> Tony


When I am watching a Recording, I just hit the Stop Button and it takes me back to a Menu where I can Select Delete or Resume or Done or whatever so I just Select Delete and I am done. Doesn't your HR2X DVR work the same way?


----------



## Syzygy

bonscott87 said:


> ... Wife hits FFW until the Delete/Keep dialog comes up. Either way it's only 2 keypresses...


Typically, someone who uses FF to get to the end presses it more than once. Plus, I find that I usually have to press it 5 or 6 times to get up to FFx3, because the HR21 ignores lots of keypresses.


----------



## kiljoy

bonscott87 said:


> So the Tivo doesn't show a synopsis of the highlighted program? I thought it did, but it's been a few years. In that case then to me (and my wife especially) the HR2x is far superior to the Tivo in the Playlist as with the program synopsis this makes it very easy to know what the episode actually is. My wife uses this all the time to tell which of her 30 CSI reruns she wants to watch. If that wasn't there she (and I) would be very frustrated.


No, the TiVo just shows the ep title. As for the synopsis being useful, let me share this:


My DVR said:


> Stargate Atlantis
> 
> "Progeny" Science Fiction. (2006) Joe Flanigan, Torri Higginson, Rainbow Sun Francks. *A thriving civilization.* High-def, CC, Series. [LB]


That's useless. Worse than useless, actually, as the space could be better used to show more of the programs in the list. Selecting the program gives a somewhat better description, but then my question remains--Why give me the useless description if I have to go into the detailed screen to find out anything?

Episode title alone is more than enough, though maybe the truncated program descriptions for the CSIs is better than those for the Stargates.  Also, if you need the detailed descriptions, the TiVo did let you go into the program detail screen and see the full synopsis and then use Chan + & - to go up and down the list of programs staying in the detail screen. I've found I never really needed the synopsis since I was either watching first run shows and was going to watch it regardless, or I was watching reruns and would be wanting to see as many details (and spoilers) as possible to choose which ep to see. In either case the truncated synopsis is useless.



bonscott87 said:


> And the PIG (live TV in the corner) is actually preferred for many people including us. Not so useful in the Playlist but very useful elsewhere. Very nice to keep watching a recorded hockey game and surf the guide or do searches, I HATE that Tivo makes you stop everything to do something as simple as search the guide. I did that just this past weekend, was watching a recorded game and remembered I saw it was a free Starz weekend so I pulled up the guide and searched for any movies to record. All the while the hockey game keeps going and I don't waste any time. Very nice.
> 
> I do agree that there should be an option to turn it off though.


PIG in the corner is useful in some screens, but obviously not the playlist. And the TiVo guide was transparent and overlaid the screen while showing only Live TV behind. I don't understand why I'd want to see what's playing while in the guide. Why am I going to the guide if I'm watching something? 
I will add that when I watch something, I _watch something_, none of this split attention nonsense. I prefer fewer distractions while navigating menus, and you prefer more distractions while watching shows, I don't think there's anything wrong with either approach. Obviously an option would make us both happy, although I'd want to actually use the real estate freed up by not having it.



bonscott87 said:


> You and other have said this before and I just don't understand it. We never, ever watch Live TV other then Sunday Ticket. Everything is our recordings. First thing we do when we sit down is hit the list button and choose something. I just don't understand this notion that the HR2x is better or only good as a live TV watching receiver. It's just not the case. HR2x is no different then all those years we used Tivo.


The HR2x is a _great_ live TV machine. Quicktune, two 90 minute DLBs (now), a nice little miniguide, all of these are really slick ways to enhance channel-surfing that TiVo lacks. The fact that you can schedule recordings (even for series) in the guide quickly and easily is also something I'd say is uniquely suited to the channel-surfer as I can't imagine why someone who only watches recordings would ever think to use the guide. It's a feature that would really only come in handy if you were browsing the guide because you didn't know what you wanted to see before you started, i.e. a channel-surfer.

I'm not saying you can't use the HR2x and the TiVo UIs in the same way, obviouisly you can, but I think it's apparent by their respective designs the way the architects of both intended people to use them. I also don't feel it's a stretch to say some ways of consuming television are better suited to one over the other, so it's a good thing we'll each have a choice to suit our preferred habits. 

Tony


----------



## kiljoy

bonscott87 said:


> Hmmmm, I just hit stop and choose Delete. Not that hard. Wife hits FFW until the Delete/Keep dialog comes up. Either way it's only 2 keypresses. Not much different then Tivo in terms of time or keypresses, just different.


Hit Stop (1)
Scroll to Delete (3)
Hit Select (1)
Hit Select for "Delete Now" (1)

Seems like it's six keypresses that way.

Alternately:

Hit List (1)
Scroll to show (??? Let's say it's the top show and not in a folder so 0)
Hit Red button (1)
Hit Select to confirm delete (1)

That's three and only if you don't have to scroll and open a folder, which isn't the case too often.

No matter what, it's far more than one keypress to go to List and one to confirm delete. (Edit: I checked, it defaults to Delete so 2 keypresses the TiVo way.)



richierich said:


> When I am watching a Recording, I just hit the Stop Button and it takes me back to a Menu where I can Select Delete or Resume or Done or whatever so I just Select Delete and I am done. Doesn't your HR2X DVR work the same way?


The TiVo just calls up a box in the last few minutes of a recording that says Delete or Keep so there's only two keypresses, not the six that your method uses. Thought I'd edit this in for clarity.

Tony


----------



## Mike Bertelson

kiljoy said:


> Hit Stop (1)
> Scroll to Delete (3)
> Hit Select (1)
> Hit Select for "Delete Now" (1)
> 
> Seems like it's six keypresses that way.
> 
> Alternately:
> 
> Hit List (1)
> Scroll to show (??? Let's say it's the top show and not in a folder so 0)
> Hit Red button (1)
> Hit Select to confirm delete (1)
> 
> That's three and only if you don't have to scroll and open a folder, which isn't the case too often.
> 
> No matter what, it's far more than one keypress to go to List and one to confirm delete. (Edit: I checked, it defaults to Delete so 2 keypresses the TiVo way.)
> 
> The TiVo just calls up a box in the last few minutes of a recording that says Delete or Keep so there's only two keypresses, not the six that your method uses. Thought I'd edit this in for clarity.
> 
> Tony


I'm not exactly sure how bonscott87 does it but I hit exit and double press the "-" button so that's three presses not six...I'm just sayin' :grin:

And what I'm deleting is quite often not at the top of the list. 

Mike


----------



## kiljoy

Now that's not a bad solution. Minus is in a crappy location on my Harmony, but there's no reason a macro can't be made.

Tony


----------



## Steve

I hit LEFT ARROW when I want to EXIT/DELETE a recording. Brings me to the same menu as STOP, but since my finger is already on the ARROW/SELECT part of the keypad, it seems quicker to scroll to DELETE and OK it.

This method only works if you haven't brought up any other GUI screens during playback, which is usually the case for me.

I wouldn't mind seeing RED bring up the KEEP/DELETE pop-up during playback, but I'm not sure if it's always available.


----------



## kiljoy

It wouldn't even be so bad if delete weren't the fourth option on the screen. I mean, are there really three things that people want to do more than delete a show they've watched?

Tony


----------



## Drew2k

kiljoy said:


> It wouldn't even be so bad if delete weren't the fourth option on the screen. I mean, are there really three things that people want to do more than delete a show they've watched?
> 
> Tony


I don't get why you think that's bad, when DIRECTV provides multiple ways to delete. Let me count the ways...

(1) Play a program and wait until the end is reached naturally or SKIP/SLIP/FFW to the end and choose DELETE at the prompt that appears (same as on TiVo)

(2) Press RED on the title in the Playlist and press SELECT at the prompt (2 keystrokes; it's been awhile but I believe this is the equivalent of hitting CLEAR on TiVo)

(3) Press DASH-DASH on the title and watch it disappear without confirmation prompt (2 keystrokes)

(4) Press SELECT on the title and scroll down to DELETE, choose DELETE at the prompt (multiple keystrokes - I didn't count them because I would never do this because there are far easier ways to delete, as noted above)


----------



## MarkEHansen

kiljoy said:


> Hit Stop (1)
> Scroll to Delete (3)
> Hit Select (1)
> Hit Select for "Delete Now" (1)
> 
> Seems like it's six keypresses that way.


Huh?

As I posted earlier, I'm using a DirecTV HR23-700. When I'm finished with a recorded show, I press the <stop> button. This takes me back to the Now Playing list with the current show still selected. I then hit the <delete> (I think this is the red button, but I don't remember for sure) and the program is deleted.

Two key presses. Never more than two.

Note that I play the recorded program by highlighting the program in the now playing list, and pressing <play>. I think things may work differently if you highlight the program and press , then whatever.

Perhaps it's different on your DirecTV DVR, but I can't imagine why it would be.


----------



## whitepelican

Drew2k said:


> (1) Play a program and wait until the end is reached naturally or SKIP/SLIP/FFW to the end and choose DELETE at the prompt that appears (same as on TiVo)


Not the same as Tivo, as has already been pointed out. Tivo is smart enough to bring up the prompt anytime you stop playing a program with less than 5 minutes remaining.



Drew2k said:


> (2) Press RED on the title in the Playlist and press SELECT at the prompt (2 keystrokes; it's been awhile but I believe this is the equivalent of hitting CLEAR on TiVo)


Not the same as Tivo, either. Tivo is a single button press of CLEAR. No confirmation prompt is necessary, because you can still retrieve the program out of the "Recently Deleted" folder if necessary.



Drew2k said:


> (3) Press DASH-DASH on the title and watch it disappear without confirmation prompt (2 keystrokes)


This wouldn't really be necessary either if they would just implement the "Recently Deleted" folder as in Tivo. One button press of RED would take care of it.



Drew2k said:


> (4) Press SELECT on the title and scroll down to DELETE, choose DELETE at the prompt (multiple keystrokes - I didn't count them because I would never do this because there are far easier ways to delete, as noted above)


This is the long way around on the Tivo as well. And, oddly enough, is the way I use most often. I believe it is still a few button presses less on the Tivo, though. Select the show, arrow down twice, and then hit SELECT again.


----------



## Shades228

While speed can be subjective to the user I decided to do some tests. Now I never have more then 13-15 SL's active at one time. When a show ends for the year I delete the SL. I do this because I don't like scrolling through things in menu's that aren't relevant at the time and I've had shows like Bones where the ID changed and the old SL didn't pick it up the next year.

So far most of the complaints have been from people who also hate the 50 SL list. Everyone's TV viewing is their life style but I'm thinking that most people are not watching all the shows that they have SL's setup for. If speed was that much of an issue there would be more complaints from people calling in and over the internet than there are. This means that DirecTV has obviously done well for most users. The ouliers appear to be the heavy users. So I would recommend to some that you go through and delete SL's that may not be relevant.

I have only ever missed a recording, mentioned above, and I also never check my to do list because of that so I can't comment on to do list not populating because it has no impact to me.

My response on the HD DVR is very good and the only real delay issue I have is because I use RF.

I know this is OT but this thread keeps jumping back and forth.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Shades228 said:


> My response on the HD DVR is very good and the only real delay issue I have is because I use RF.
> 
> I know this is OT but this thread keeps jumping back and forth.


Not to worry....the thread has already migrated from discussing and speculating about a new HD DVR in 2010 to...57 flavors of GUI design and redesign....and which button(s) should be pushed....and......Tivo is great / Tivo sucks....


----------



## veryoldschool

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not to worry....the thread has already migrated [to]......Tivo is great / Tivo sucks....


Which they all seem to end up.


----------



## wingrider01

Syzygy said:


> OK, I'll say it even though the answer's implied in your question:
> 
> No, the *box* is doing something wrong. And by something, I mean more than 5 dozen things.  Please see:
> 
> *A compendium of HR2x software problems*
> 
> (And that list doesn't even include pure _wishes _like the one above.)


the majority of those look more like desires and not software problems, just becasue something does not work the way you want it to, it is not a software problem


----------



## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> The fact that you can schedule recordings (even for series) in the guide quickly and easily is also something I'd say is uniquely suited to the channel-surfer as I can't imagine why someone who only watches recordings would ever think to use the guide. It's a feature that would really only come in handy if you were browsing the guide because you didn't know what you wanted to see before you started, i.e. a channel-surfer.


Huh? So how exactly do you schedule recordings? Sure I can search but let's take the new fall season.

During the NFL pre-game show I hit the guide (and I can still follow what they are saying because of the PIG). Changed the date to be Monday 8pm and went to my local CBS station. All the locals are on the screen at once. Hit the record button on anything new that looks interesting or I want to record. Scroll over a bit to get a peak at 10pm.

Hit green button twice to go ahead 24 hours. Do the same.
Green button twice to get to Wednesday.

Rinse repeat and in less then a couple minutes I just scheduled a bunch of new fall shows to record MUCH faster then anyone could do using the search.

Or say I want to see what's up on a movie channel the next 2 weeks. Guide, left arrow to highlight said movie channel's number, hit info. Entire guide for movie channel is now up. Quickly scroll thru the list and record a dozen movies in less the a minute.

Just a couple examples but using the guide is very quick and effective to schedule recordings and watching live TV has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Richierich

I use the Guide and then go to a certain channel such as The History Channel and then hit the Info Button and see everything that is scheduled for the next 10 days or so and Record what I want to see later.

I then do it for the History International Channel, etc. and I am in no way a Channel Surfer but I use it to find things that I like and want to record.

TiVo used to have a Guide that would show you the Upcoming Shows so if I was looking for Golf at 4:00 P.M. I would move to that time and then start at Channel 2, then Channel 5 and very quickly I could find out where the Golf Event was without having to look it up in the newspaper.


----------



## Steve

richierich said:


> [...]TiVo used to have a Guide that would show you the Upcoming Shows so if I was looking for Golf at 4:00 P.M. I would move to that time and then start at Channel 2, then Channel 5 and very quickly I could find out where the Golf Event was without having to look it up in the newspaper.


I still long for that TiVo-style GUIDE. I loved it.


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## loudo

Steve said:


> I still long for that TiVo-style GUIDE. I loved it.


That one is not to bad. better than the one on the HR10-250.


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## Richierich

That is the Guide on the HR10-250. There were two different versions and you must have picked the other one which I did not like.

This version let you see what was coming on for the next 3 or 4 hours so you could easily see what was coming on for the Four Major Networks or whatever.

I Just LOVED that GUIDE!!! Very USER Friendly!!!


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## Steve

richierich said:


> That is the Guide on the HR10-250. There were two different versions and you must have picked the other one which I did not like.


Correct. The other HR10-250 GUIDE choice looked something like this:








​
Both pictures I posted are the GUIDE choices for the TiVoHD, BTW. They came from this thread, over at TCF.


----------



## loudo

richierich said:


> That is the Guide on the HR10-250. There were two different versions and you must have picked the other one which I did not like.
> 
> This version let you see what was coming on for the next 3 or 4 hours so you could easily see what was coming on for the Four Major Networks or whatever.
> 
> I Just LOVED that GUIDE!!! Very USER Friendly!!!


Never realized there was another one to choose from. No wonder I hated it when others loved it.


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## Drew2k

whitepelican said:


> Not the same as Tivo, as has already been pointed out. Tivo is smart enough to bring up the prompt anytime you stop playing a program with less than 5 minutes remaining.


Ick! Horrible! Who wants to be looking at a prompt when there are still 5 minutes of the program to be played??? :nono2:



> Not the same as Tivo, either. Tivo is a single button press of CLEAR. No confirmation prompt is necessary, because you can still retrieve the program out of the "Recently Deleted" folder if necessary.


But it was the original TiVo implementation before Recently Deleted was introduced.



> This wouldn't really be necessary either if they would just implement the "Recently Deleted" folder as in Tivo. One button press of RED would take care of it.


I would love to have a recently deleted folder, but even using RED it's only two keystrokes: RED then SELECT, as the DELETE NOW item is highlighted when used this way.



> This is the long way around on the Tivo as well. And, oddly enough, is the way I use most often. I believe it is still a few button presses less on the Tivo, though. Select the show, arrow down twice, and then hit SELECT again.


I still prefer the DIRECTV way, as I have choices.

I also forget method five:

(5) Choose YELLOW > Mark and Delete and then press SELECT on multiple titles, and choose the option to DELETE NOW, and you can delete 1 to dozens of titles in batch mode.


----------



## pfp

Steve said:


> I still long for that TiVo-style GUIDE. I loved it.


I LOVED this guide! One of the things I miss the most. _(yes I know about the lame HR2x version, if you could even call it that)_


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## Shades228

That is the only thing I miss from TiVo is that guide, but it's not enough to just make me switch.


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## kiljoy

bonscott87 said:


> Huh? So how exactly do you schedule recordings? Sure I can search but let's take the new fall season.
> 
> During the NFL pre-game show I hit the guide (and I can still follow what they are saying because of the PIG). Changed the date to be Monday 8pm and went to my local CBS station. All the locals are on the screen at once. Hit the record button on anything new that looks interesting or I want to record.


I know what I want to record long before I know what channel it's going to be on. Actually, I don't have a clue what networks air most of the stuff I watch. I do know the _names_ of the shows I watch.



Drew2k said:


> Ick! Horrible! Who wants to be looking at a prompt when there are still 5 minutes of the program to be played???


There isn't a prompt throughout the last five minutes, the prompt appears if you exit a program with less than five minutes remaining. Because, you know, that makes sense and your concept doesn't.

Tony


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## Drew2k

kiljoy said:


> There isn't a prompt throughout the last five minutes, the prompt appears if you exit a program with less than five minutes remaining. Because, you know, that makes sense and your concept doesn't.
> 
> Tony


I'll tell you, it's been years since I've used TiVo and you can see I clearly have forgotten how it works, which underscores that I don't miss it at all. I've got five different ways to delete a program on the HR2x. Life's good for me. Hopefully you'll find what you need and be as content.


----------



## whitepelican

Drew2k said:


> I'll tell you, it's been years since I've used TiVo and you can see I clearly have forgotten how it works, which underscores that I don't miss it at all. I've got five different ways to delete a program on the HR2x. Life's good for me. Hopefully you'll find what you need and be as content.


The fact that you don't remember how much simpler it was with Tivo, doesn't make it any less so. Two of the biggest complaints I heard from my wife when we used the HR2x boxes was that it didn't prompt to delete when you stopped playing a show and that you always had to start back at the top of the list. Those are two pretty big items from the standpoint of user-friendliness, especially if you have added a large drive and have a very long list of recorded shows.


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## Stuart Sweet

To each his own... I never cared for the list guide on TiVo and used it very infrequently. I also never liked how the guide completely covered up the program underneath it making it unwatchable.


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## whitepelican

Steve said:


> Correct. The other HR10-250 GUIDE choice looked something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Both pictures I posted are the GUIDE choices for the TiVoHD, BTW. They came from this thread, over at TCF.


The other thing that is amazing about both of the Tivo guides compared to the HR2x guide is that even from the earliest Series 1 SD Tivos they were able to fit so much more information (especially more rows of channels) on the guide. And that's using what has been called here a "cartoonish" interface.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:



> To each his own... I never cared for the list guide on TiVo and used it very infrequently. I also never liked how the guide completely covered up the program underneath it making it unwatchable.


True. To each his own, but I appreciated the fact that TiVo gave us a guide-style option.

I was at my son's house yesterday, playing with his FiOS DVR. They have set-up options for GUIDE style, PIG on/off and # seconds for REPLAY/ADVANCE (defaults are 10/30). I was impressed! Bad news is only a 160GB hard drive. D'oh!


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## Stuart Sweet

I guess all that time spent programming the preferences list for the FIOS DVR would have been better spent negotiating a good price for 500GB hard drives


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## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> I guess all that time spent programming the preferences list for the FIOS DVR would have been better spent negotiating a good price for 500GB hard drives


:lol:


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## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> To each his own... I never cared for the list guide on TiVo and used it very infrequently. I also never liked how the guide completely covered up the program underneath it making it unwatchable.


Agree.

The primary difference these days is that many users now have years of DVR experience...so the bar of expectations has been raised beyond the TIVO classic over-simplified user interface.

Saying the HR2x series DVRs are too complicated is simply a gross misrepresentation of the facts. It is intuitive (if you take the time to learn it like anything else new).

While I was using some levity in make an earlier point about my 10-year-old grandson having no problem using HR2x HD DVRs, there was also alot of truth behind it. If he can use it without any problems....


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## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It is intuitive (if you take the time to learn it like anything else new).


Are you sure you wanted to make that statement?


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## MarkEHansen

whitepelican said:


> The fact that you don't remember how much simpler it was with Tivo, doesn't make it any less so. Two of the biggest complaints I heard from my wife when we used the HR2x boxes was that it didn't prompt to delete when you stopped playing a show and that you always had to start back at the top of the list. Those are two pretty big items from the standpoint of user-friendliness, especially if you have added a large drive and have a very long list of recorded shows.


Hmmm, I never have to start back at the top of the list. When I finish a show, I am returned to the list in the same place with the show selected (so it's ready to delete).

I'm using an HR23-700.


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## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> Are you sure you wanted to make that statement? :lol:


 Only to those where its applicable. :lol:


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## Steve

> hdtvfan0001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is intuitive (if you take the time to learn it like anything else new).
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure you wanted to make that statement?
> 
> 
> hdtvfan0001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only to those where its applicable. :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

 Actually to me, "intuitive" means that no learning curve is required.

*Intuitive:* _automatic, without requiring conscious thought;_


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## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> Actually to me, "intuitive" means that no learning curve is required.
> 
> *Intuitive:* _automatic, without requiring conscious thought;_


For some...even "intuitive" requires some learning the first time.


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## Steve

MarkEHansen said:


> Hmmm, I never have to start back at the top of the list. When I finish a show, I am returned to the list in the same place with the show selected (so it's ready to delete).
> 
> I'm using an HR23-700.


Ya. It's inconsistent. If you just visit the LIST to check or delete a show, e.g., the _next_ time you return to the LIST, you're back at the top.

Doug ran a poll a while back, and 57% wished it would remember the last position visited.


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## bonscott87

kiljoy said:


> I know what I want to record long before I know what channel it's going to be on. Actually, I don't have a clue what networks air most of the stuff I watch. I do know the _names_ of the shows I watch.


So you search for everything then? That's ok, but does take longer then using the guide. But maybe not if you really don't know that Fringe is on Fox or whatnot. I don't know what day or time a lot of shows are on but I do know what network at least. 

But my point was simply that you and others seem to think that the guide is only used by people that watch a lot of Live TV or surf. That is far from the truth. Yes, the HR2x series is live TV friendly, but by no means is it the main function or is it "un"friendly to those that don't watch live TV a lot (or ever) despite the fact you may think so.


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## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> Doug ran a poll a while back, and 57% wished it would remember the last position visited.


Which would make it *more* intuitive.


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## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Which would make it *more* intuitive.


Agreed, cause I'm in the 57%.


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## Drew2k

whitepelican said:


> The fact that you don't remember how much simpler it was with Tivo, doesn't make it any less so.


You obviously have better eyes than I do, because I can't find where I said that it was not simpler with TiVo. I said I didn't miss TiVo. That's a fact.



> Two of the biggest complaints I heard from my wife when we used the HR2x boxes was that it didn't prompt to delete *when you stopped playing a show* and that you always had to start back at the top of the list.


How do you stop the show? If I press STOP I'm returned to the playlist with the program I was just playing still highlighted. Then I can press RED. I have a hard time seeing how that is complicated... If you want to stop a CD or DVD, you press STOP. It's no different on the HR2x.



> Those are two pretty big items from the standpoint of user-friendliness, especially if you have added a large drive and have a very long list of recorded shows.


Again, it goes to how you stopped the playback... Hitting STOP always works for me and takes me to that title in the playlist. :shrug:


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## Lee L

THe main difference is that with the TiVo system, it did not matter how you stopped playing a program. It always kept you where you wanted to be.


----------



## Drew2k

Lee L said:


> THe main difference is that with the TiVo system, it did not matter how you stopped playing a program. It always kept you where you wanted to be.


That's really a matter of perspective and personal preference, to be sure. With TiVo I had no way but the way it was programmed. With DIRECTV I have options. If I'm watching a program two-thirds of the way down in the Playlist and I see the recording light come on, I can simply hit LIST and I'm at the top and can immediately see what is recording. With TiVo, I'd have to scroll. I prefer the DIRECTV way as I can choose when and how I look at the list. Pressing STOP keeps me on the show I was playing, pressing LIST takes me to the top - that really works for me.


----------



## trainman

Syzygy said:


> I do know of a great feature on the _old_ standalone TiVo box that D* killed on the HR10-250: Leonard Maltin's star ratings for movies. I can't imagine any reason for removing this feature, other than wishing to hide how awful some movies are (especially on the premium channels). By me, that's another thing that can be blamed on those evil marketers.


As far as I know, those Leonard Maltin star ratings aren't specifically a TiVo software feature; they're something Tribune Media Services makes available as part of their program listings. And for whatever reason, TiVo Inc. provides them in the data that gets passed along to their standalone units, but DirecTV does not provide them in the data that it passes along to its receivers. It's theoretically possible that it's a cost issue (I'm not sure whether or not TMS charges extra for a feed that includes the Maltin ratings), but it's also theoretically possible that it's as you said above, that DirecTV doesn't want people to see low star ratings for their PPVs and premium channels.


----------



## MarkEHansen

Lee L said:


> THe main difference is that with the TiVo system, it did not matter how you stopped playing a program. It always kept you where you wanted to be.


So ... if pressing <stop> takes you where you want to go but pressing <exit> does not, why aren't you pressing <stop>?


----------



## Syzygy

Steve said:


> Ya. It's inconsistent. If you just visit the LIST to check or delete a show, e.g., the _next_ time you return to the LIST, you're back at the top.
> 
> Doug ran a poll a while back, and 57% wished it would remember the last position visited.


Only 57%? (It's 58% since I just now voted. ) That suggests that these polls are worthless. Those 52 people in the minority (out of 124 voters) may not have imagined there _was_ a better way, never having experienced the "other side".


----------



## Syzygy

Lee L said:


> THe main difference is that with the TiVo system, it did not matter how you stopped playing a program. It always kept you where you wanted to be.


Not exactly true. (I guess you meant "where you wanted to be" _in the list_. But...)

I'm sorry to have to point this out (being a TiVo fan) but the HR10-250 has a bug: If you pause while watching the last 5 minutes of a recording and then exit by any means, your TiVo _forgets where you were_ in the recording. You have to start at the beginning again.

The bug was introduced on the HR10-250 in one of the 6.3 updates and has never been addressed there; I don't know whether the problem showed up on other TiVos.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think that we'd all be better off if we just went back to this:


----------



## whitepelican

Drew2k said:


> How do you stop the show? If I press STOP I'm returned to the playlist with the program I was just playing still highlighted. Then I can press RED. I have a hard time seeing how that is complicated... If you want to stop a CD or DVD, you press STOP. It's no different on the HR2x.


It's not complicated, it's just _more_ complicated than a Tivo. Which is exactly my point. It makes a difference _how_ you stop watching a recording as to what behavior to expect out of it. I'm not sure I ever knew there was a STOP button on the DirecTV remote. Seems like a waste of a button. Tivo remotes don't have or need a STOP button.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

A Ferrari is more complicated than a Chevy and that does not stop me from wanting one.


----------



## veryoldschool

Stuart Sweet said:


> A Ferrari is more complicated than a Chevy and that does not stop me from wanting one.


And I thought you were a bugatti man.


----------



## Syzygy

trainman said:


> As far as I know, those Leonard Maltin star ratings aren't specifically a TiVo software feature; they're something Tribune Media Services makes available as part of their program listings...
> 
> I'm not sure whether or not TMS charges extra for a feed that includes the Maltin ratings...


Thanks for adding that detail. I knew the ratings came from TMS but left that out.

Does anyone know if TMS charges extra for the star ratings?


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Thanks for adding that detail. I knew the ratings came from TMS but left that out.
> 
> Does anyone know if TMS charges extra for the star ratings?


TMS is like any other company .. I have to believe they charge for each and every add-on.

TMS is of course a clearinghouse for program schedule information. As far as I know every service provider uses them because it just doesn't make sense to have multiple outlets for something like this.


----------



## whitepelican

Stuart Sweet said:


> A Ferrari is more complicated than a Chevy and that does not stop me from wanting one.


Oh, brother. The HR2x is the Ferrari of DVRs!!!


----------



## Drew2k

whitepelican said:


> It's not complicated, it's just _more_ complicated than a Tivo. Which is exactly my point. It makes a difference _how_ you stop watching a recording as to what behavior to expect out of it. I'm not sure I ever knew there was a STOP button on the DirecTV remote. Seems like a waste of a button. Tivo remotes don't have or need a STOP button.


Well I'm glad I was able to point out the button with a square on it directly above the PLAY button on the white DIRECTV remote then! 

I'm still curious how you stopped playing a progam all this time though..... Did you press EXIT to return to Live TV? Then of course you'd have to press LIST and scroll to find that program in the playlist.

Start using STOP and see if that changes anything for you ...


----------



## ATARI

whitepelican said:


> Oh, brother. The HR2x is the Ferrari of DVRs!!!


I love car analogies.

So here's my take: TiVo -- cute, like a VW bug; HR20 -- good features, usable, but not very attractive, like a minivan; HR30 -- great specs, fast and sexy, like a Porsche.

(I can dream)


----------



## bonscott87

whitepelican said:


> I'm not sure I ever knew there was a STOP button on the DirecTV remote. Seems like a waste of a button. Tivo remotes don't have or need a STOP button.


LOL. When we got our first Tivo back in 2000 the lack of a Stop button was very annoying and still was. One of the first things my wife said when we got our first HR2x was she loved the fact there was a stop button.

Different strokes I guess.


----------



## whitepelican

Drew2k said:


> Start using STOP and see if that changes anything for you ...


It's too late for me. I've been HR2x free for some time now.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> LOL. When we got our first Tivo back in 2000 the lack of a Stop button was very annoying and still was. One of the first things my wife said when we got our first HR2x was she loved the fact there was a stop button.


FWIW, the TiVo didn't need a STOP button, because it had a dedicated LIVE button to take you back to live TV, Exactly what STOP on a VCR used to do, the appliance the TiVo's originally replaced.

As you know, DirecTV has changed the function of the STOP button into a two-step process. It stops playback, but doesn't immediately take you back to LIVE TV. Instead, it takes you to the recording's option menu.


----------



## Lee L

MarkEHansen said:


> So ... if pressing <stop> takes you where you want to go but pressing <exit> does not, why aren't you pressing <stop>?


Because if I press stop I am suddenly looking at the Picture in graphics, which is most likely playing some show I am recording to watch later. Most of the time this is not really a huge problem, but kind of sucks if it happens to be aroun 5 minutes till or somethign and you see some crucial point.


----------



## DogLover

Lee L said:


> Because if I press stop I am suddenly looking at the Picture in graphics, which is most likely playing some show I am recording to watch later. Most of the time this is not really a huge problem, but kind of sucks if it happens to be aroun 5 minutes till or somethign and you see some crucial point.


But exit will take you to live TV, which will be a full screen version of the same thing. It still seems like stop is better. (It would be easier to ignore a small box than a full screen. Though, admittedly, sometimes both are hard to ignore.)

You might also try the left arrow or back button. It will go back to the list if you haven't been elsewhere since you started the recording. The list will have the recording in the PIG, so you won't spoil anything.


----------



## MarkEHansen

Lee L said:


> Because if I press stop I am suddenly looking at the Picture in graphics, which is most likely playing some show I am recording to watch later. Most of the time this is not really a huge problem, but kind of sucks if it happens to be aroun 5 minutes till or somethign and you see some crucial point.


So? How do you *not* get that?

I do know what you mean, but more often than not, I'm happing that the Live channel is visible/audible while in the menus/guides, etc., so I just go with it.

However, you *were* talking about getting back to the list of recorded shows after finishing watching one of the recordings, and that you weren't taken back to the location in the list where your show was, right?

I think I'm just missing what you're talking about, so I'll back out of this one. Sorry.


----------



## Steve

MarkEHansen said:


> So? How do you *not* get that?


I do LEFT, DELETE, PAUSE, LIST. Works as long as I haven't gone anywhere else while watching playback.


----------



## veryoldschool

Steve said:


> I do LEFT, DELETE, PAUSE, LIST. Works as long as I haven't gone anywhere else while watching playback.


[OK, I'll bite]
So why can't it just go to where I think I want to be? 
Why must I push any buttons?
Now that would be "intuitive".


----------



## cartrivision

Steve said:


> FWIW, the TiVo didn't need a STOP button, because it had a dedicated LIVE button to take you back to live TV, Exactly what STOP on a VCR used to do, the appliance the TiVo's originally replaced.
> 
> As you know, DirecTV has changed the function of the STOP button into a two-step process. It stops playback, but doesn't immediately take you back to LIVE TV. Instead, it takes you to the recording's option menu.


Now if they would only give us a way to get back to the position in the playlist where we were when the playback was started, instead on making us start back at the top of the playlist and scroll through page after page to get back to where we left off. The BACK button will _sometimes_ get you there from the recording's option menu, but only if you haven't done anything else within the GUI since you were last looking at the playlist.

What should happen is selecting LIST while playing back a recording or while on that recording's option menu should always take you to that recording's location within the playlist, and it should only take you to the top of the list when you the are not playing a recording or when you are on the recording's option menu.

Either that, or do like Tivo does and always return you to the last place that you were at in the playlist, and let the skip button be used to jump to the top of the list when that's where you want to be.

The bottom line is that the current implementation of always going to the top of the playlist is the thing that I would do least often if I had total control of what it did.... so that's the worst possible implementation.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

veryoldschool said:


> [OK, I'll bite]
> So why can't it just go to where I think I want to be?
> Why must I push any buttons?
> Now that would be "intuitive".


Vulcan Mind Meld or ESP Automated Services.


----------



## Sixto

With all the back-and-forth here about which is better, figured I'd jot down what I preferred with each platform, having both the HR2x and Series3.

HR2x: Picture-in-Guide, % used, Quicktune, Caller-ID, Series link shows number of upcoming episodes, CE Program.

Series3: 2Go, remote control on/off for A/V receiver, undelete, TiVo Desktop for Music/Photo's, remembers last place in LIST, MRV does copy, remote control button response, DLB always on, Search seems more extensive, Broadband (Amazon/Netflix/Youtube).

Did prefer the Guide on the Series3, but have grown to like the HR2x Guide. Same with the remote, loved the tactile TiVo Glo Remote, but now the R64 is fine.

Would assume that MPEG4, SWM, DoD, and Interactive (including Mix) will be supported on both. At least hope so.

Edit: Just played with Series3 and removed single button record from HR2x list above. On the Series3, hitting record in the guide brings up a menu which allows a single recording or season pass, which is fine.


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## Drew2k

Steve said:


> As you know, DirecTV has changed the function of the STOP button into a two-step process. It stops playback, but doesn't immediately take you back to LIVE TV. Instead, it takes you to the recording's option menu.


Not quite complete Steve, as it's not as if DIRECTV doesn't have a one-step means to get back to live TV. Akin to the TiVo LIVE button, pressing EXIT will stop playback and return the user to live TV, so the option is there.

Pressing STOP does what it's supposed to: stops playback and takes the user to the Playlist with that program highlighted.


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## Drew2k

cartrivision said:


> Now if they would only give us a way to get back to the position in the playlist where we were when the playback was started, instead on making us start back at the top of the playlist and scroll through page after page to get back to where we left off.


Pressing STOP while playing a program will return to the position where you left off, and pressing LIST takes you to the top.

I provided an example up above, but I'll expand to say that this is a smart implementation. If I'm playing back a program 40 items down in the list and I see the recording light is on and I want to know what's currently recording, I don't want to page up through the playlist multiple times. I'm very happy to just press LIST and be right at the top (using a list sorted by date).

I don't want to return to the last place in the Playlist when I hit LIST, so the current implementation is the best possible implementation for me.


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## Steve

Drew2k said:


> Pressing STOP does what it's supposed to: stops playback and takes the user to the Playlist with that program highlighted.


Always? E.g., I just hit STOP during an MRV playback and it took me to the "resume, start over, etc." menu.

EDIT: Same for local playback. STOP took me to the "resume, etc." screen. Running CE here, tho.


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## Drew2k

Steve said:


> Always? E.g., I just hit STOP during an MRV playback and it took me to the "resume, start over, etc." menu.
> 
> EDIT: Same for local playback. STOP took me to the "resume, etc." screen.


I don't use the sub-menus. When I press PLAY on a title in the Playlist and then press STOP, yes, I'm back on the title.


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## Steve

Drew2k said:


> Not quite complete Steve, as it's not as if DIRECTV doesn't have a one-step means to get back to live TV. Akin to the TiVo LIVE button, pressing EXIT will stop playback and return the user to live TV, so the option is there.


I agree. I was just commenting on Scott's post as to why TiVo didn't have a STOP button. Because LIVE replicated what STOP on a VCR used to do, there was no need for one.


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## Steve

Drew2k said:


> I don't use the sub-menus. When I press PLAY on a title in the Playlist and then press STOP, yes, I'm back on the title.


Ya learn something new every day. I had no idea that was possible.


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## Drew2k

Steve said:


> Ya learn something new every day. I had no idea that was possible.


Since it appears the intent is to return the user to their position in the list when playing from the top-level of the playlist and STOP is used, I'd say that it's a bug that the user is not returned to that position when using the sub-menu to play the program...


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## Steve

Drew2k said:


> Since it appears the intent is to return the user to their position in the list when playing from the top-level of the playlist and STOP is used, I'd say that it's a bug that the user is not returned to that position when using the sub-menu to play the program...


Could be. I'd have to think about that. I sometimes _want _to go to the sub-menu, and not the LIST.

I just tried PLAY from the PLAYLIST and then LEFT ARROW to STOP (like I do when I PLAY from the sub-menu). It took me back to LIST, but didn't stop the recording. Would be cool if it did, IMHO.


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## Drew2k

Steve said:


> Could be. I'd have to think about that. I sometimes _want _to go to the sub-menu and not the list.
> 
> I just tried PLAY from the PLAYLIST and then LEFT ARROW to STOP (like I do when I PLAY from the sub-menu). It took me back to LIST, but didn't stop the recording. Would be cool if it did, IMHO.


Well I think this makes sense: If you play from the sub-menu and press STOP, you should be returned to the sub-menu of that title, and when you select Done from that screen you should be returned to the same title in the playlist. However, if you had selected Delete from the sub-menu, then you should be returned to the playlist at the position of the title above (or below) the one you were just playing.

(I only ever use the sub-menu of a title to read the full description, and even if I'm going to play it, I always press LEFT to return to the playlist and play it from there.)


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## Steve

Drew2k said:


> Well I think this makes sense: If you play from the sub-menu and press STOP, you should be returned to the sub-menu of that title, and when you select Done from that screen you should be returned to the same title in the playlist. However, if you had selected Delete from the sub-menu, then you should be returned to the playlist at the position of the title above (or below) the one you were just playing.


Agree. I just tried that on an MRV title, and that's how it worked. Both "done" and "delete" returned me to that section of the LIST.


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## JLucPicard

Drew2k said:


> Pressing STOP does what it's supposed to: stops playback and takes the user to the Playlist with that program highlighted.


S-l-i-g-h-t adjustment to that statement. If I start watching a program I had already recorded and another one or two programs start recording while I'm watching, if I press STOP it takes me to that point in the playlist, but the program that is highlighted is one or two positions up from the program I was watching as if the playlist shifted positions to accommodate the new program(s) being recorded since I started playing that program.

I actually wound up accidentally deleting a program group with about 12 episodes of a show I hadn't watched yet because of this. I was watching a movie, a different program had recorded (start to finish, not an episode of the program I had 12 episodes of) while I was watching, when the credits started rolling at the end of the movie I was watching I hit STOP, RED button, DELETE NOW and when it took a while for the delete to occur I wondered if things were locking up. Delete finished, the movie I had watched was still in the list and the group of 12 eps of that other show were gone.

When I had hit stop, it took me back to the playlist, but instead of the movie I had just watched being the highlighted program, it had shifted the "highlighted program" up one spot and parked on the group with the 12 unwatched eps in it. When I deleted I was just assuming it was the movie being deleted and wasn't paying attention. Yup, killed that whole group of shows I hadn't watched yet. Kinda sucked, but there were so many there because it was very low priority on my "watch" list. Freed up a LOT of space for new programs, though!!! :lol:


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## Lee L

MarkEHansen said:


> So? How do you *not* get that?
> 
> I do know what you mean, but more often than not, I'm happing that the Live channel is visible/audible while in the menus/guides, etc., so I just go with it.
> 
> However, you *were* talking about getting back to the list of recorded shows after finishing watching one of the recordings, and that you weren't taken back to the location in the list where your show was, right?
> 
> I think I'm just missing what you're talking about, so I'll back out of this one. Sorry.


WE just pause the end of whatever show we were watching, then go in and select the next show. At the end of that show, while we are in teh guide selecting the next one, we will usaually delete whatever show we watched first and so on. Just a giant PITA to workaround the stupid PIG but whatever.


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## trainman

Doug Brott said:


> TMS is of course a clearinghouse for program schedule information. As far as I know every service provider uses them because it just doesn't make sense to have multiple outlets for something like this.


TMS does have a competitor in providing electronic TV listings data: Rovi, formerly known as Macrovision, under the TV Guide brand, which they acquired a couple years ago. (They've since sold off the print magazine and the channel, to concentrate solely on TV Guide's electronic data.)

I know some cable companies use TV Guide as their provider, and there's a TV Guide service that's built into some TVs and other devices. Before I had DirecTV, I got TV Guide data on my Adelphia Cable set-top box; don't know if things have changed now that they're Time Warner in this area.

I had a standalone TiVo back then; since the set-top box's info bar showed up due to the channel change at the beginning of every recording, I always had the chance to compare the TMS and the TV Guide data. The TMS data on the TiVo was noticeably more accurate than the TV Guide data on the set-top box, even though it was only updated once a day by a dial-in call to TiVo, rather than (theoretically) continuously by my cable operator.


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## Sixto

Gonna be away for a few days so just TiVo2Go'ed a few season premieres to the laptop to possibly watch in high-quality while away. While it may seem unlikely for the new DirecTV TiVo box to support TiVo2Go, it would be awesome if it does, just a fabulous feature.

Current Series3 is just for backup (loss of dish signal), TiVo2Go, and TiVo Desktop for photo viewing for family events. Still most likely will prefer the next generation HR2x over the new TiVo, but TiVo2Go support would remove the need for the Series3. 

Yes, do have a slingbox, but the TiVo2Go video quality is excellent, and no need for internet connection (plane/train/...). Awesome feature.


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## mikela

That's exactly what I have been trying to say in my tivo2go thread.


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## RCY

The ability to take recorded programs on a mobile device is great. Fortunately, I can receive OTA in addition to my D* and can use my HTPC to offload my recorded TV to a Nokia 770. I caught up on Sarah Conner Chronicles on my last business trip.


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