# Liberty Media takes over DirecTV



## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Any have any idea wheter Liberty Media might reignite a DirecTV and TIVO relationship? Seems the old DirecTV model (pre-Murdoch) had much better, at least reliable, DVR and other receiver platforms for customers. Any hope for a renewed DirecTIVO offering?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

No one knows what will happen until it happens. I would make a guess that it's going to be pretty low on the priority list though. Having the whole box in their control in the end makes for a better business decision. If anything came out of it with TiVo I would think that it would be a purchase of them by DTV and I don't really know if that will ever happen.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> No one knows what will happen until it happens. I would make a guess that it's going to be pretty low on the priority list though. Having the whole box in their control in the end makes for a better business decision.


I would ask the owners of the current Murdoch endorsed receivers whether they think the current direction D* has been headed will be good business in the end.

"Control" can be a self deluding pursuit. Perhaps D* should rememebr the old adage: the harder you squeeze, the more the sand falls between your fingers.


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

Tops on the list should be delivering true HD to their subscribers. And then more HD. I would also hope that they take a look at the comments here and on other forums about the non-TiVo DVR and take them seriously.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jdspencer said:


> Tops on the list should be delivering true HD to their subscribers. And then more HD. I would also hope that they take a look at the comments here and on other forums about the non-TiVo DVR and take them seriously.


As for the "true" HD... That is just a technological limitation right now.
Once the new SATs are launched, and the existing MPEG-2 HD's are converted to MPEG4..
"True" HD, will be there.

And by definition of how the Internet has defined "HD-Lite"; DirecTV is offering "True" HD on their MPEG-4 offerings.

As for the second part:

Yes, I do hope they look at the comments and evaluate them correctly...
As do I hope everyone does... the new HR20, is not as bad as a lot of people paint it out to be...

And as the months have gone on, more and more people are realizing that... that wow... maybe, just maybe, "TiVo" is not the end-all-be-all


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## mikhu (Oct 10, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And as the months have gone on, more and more people are realizing that... that wow... maybe, just maybe, "TiVo" is not the end-all-be-all


I realized that the FIRST time I turned on my HR10!!


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

tkrandall said:


> I would ask the owners of the current Murdoch endorsed receivers whether they think the current direction D* has been headed will be good business in the end.
> 
> "Control" can be a self deluding pursuit. Perhaps D* should rememebr the old adage: the harder you squeeze, the more the sand falls between your fingers.


Think what you want, DTV controls the software on their newer DVRs. They don't have to pay Tivo any per box fee for the new boxes, they add or don't add features they want or don't want.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the "true" HD... That is just a technological limitation right now.
> Once the new SATs are launched, and the existing MPEG-2 HD's are converted to MPEG4..
> "True" HD, will be there.


Not so fast. The *Capacity* for True HD will be there. Whether or not D* will see fit to provide it is another story.

Remember, D* execs are on record with saying D* provides the "highest quality" HD PQ available without qualifiers. The first step toward fixing a problem is admitting the problem.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> Not so fast. The *Capacity* for True HD will be there. Whether or not D* will see fit to provide it is another story.
> 
> Remember, D* execs are on record with saying D* provides the "highest quality" HD PQ available without qualifiers. The first step toward fixing a problem is admitting the problem.


True.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As do I hope everyone does... the new HR20, is not as bad as a lot of people paint it out to be...
> 
> And as the months have gone on, more and more people are realizing that... that wow... maybe, just maybe, "TiVo" is not the end-all-be-all


That's it. You are hereby ordered to relinquish your membership at TCF and surrender your User Title of "A TiVo Junkie". You are out of the club.  

I do have to agree the HR20 is not nearly as bad as I expected it to be. Of course, given the problems the R15 had it is understandble how myself and many others could be hesitant to accept D*'s in-house DVR.

And I agree the HR10 is not the E-A-B-A. However, I will have to say it would have been a very nice place to start. I think TiVo management was too stubborn and greedy to let the partnership be everything it could be.

Is the HR20 as reliable as my HR10's? Not yet. Will it be? I think so at some point. Will it have all the features the HR10 has (think DLB)? Probably not, but it will have some neat features the TiVo didn't so it is probably a tradeoff.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I really do need to change my "motto" at TCF...


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Herdfan said:


> Not so fast. The *Capacity* for True HD will be there. Whether or not D* will see fit to provide it is another story.
> 
> Remember, D* execs are on record with saying D* provides the "highest quality" HD PQ available without qualifiers. The first step toward fixing a problem is admitting the problem.


So far with the MPEG4 locals they are. At least in markets that have the new encoders the MPEG4 locals are virtually the same as OTA. So there is plenty of hope that DirecTV will provide "full" HD with the new sats. They don't have a reason not too as they won't have bandwidth limitations. But we'll see what actually happens...


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> Think what you want, DTV controls the software on their newer DVRs. They don't have to pay Tivo any per box fee for the new boxes, they add or don't add features they want or don't want.


And fix or don't fix bugs they want or don't want.


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## untouchable (Jun 24, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> Not so fast. The *Capacity* for True HD will be there. Whether or not D* will see fit to provide it is another story.
> 
> Remember, D* execs are on record with saying D* provides the "highest quality" HD PQ available without qualifiers.


and Time Warner says that you will never lose your picture when it rains or storms, but guess what?? you do lose it...wait, D* should start countering their lawsuit and take them to court over their commercials...if they won, the could get better HD


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

walters said:


> And fix or don't fix bugs they want or don't want.


I think that goes for most companies though


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## spaceghostinME (Aug 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And as the months have gone on, more and more people are realizing that... that wow... maybe, just maybe, "TiVo" is not the end-all-be-all


I've owned (or leased  ) 3 different DVRs now - UltimateTV, DirecTiVo, and the R15, and the best of the bunch is still the UltimateTV. It did pretty much everything the others do, but it did it faster and more efficiently. The UI made more sense and in general just did things better... I wish that it hadn't gone away... (P.S. Don't tell Microsoft, I don't want them getting a big head...  )


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Everyone has heard the phrase "tree huggers". Everytime I surf the other forum all I can think of is the phrase "TIVO Huggers". It's a good product, good brand, good company, all that good stuff, I have nothing bad to say about TIVO ...but damn.... it's just a DVR. not the holly grail.


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## jediphish (Dec 4, 2005)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Everyone has heard the phrase "tree huggers". Everytime I surf the other forum all I can think of is the phrase "TIVO huggers". It's a good product, good brand, good company, all that good stuff, I have nothing bad to say about TIVO ...but damn.... it's just a DVR. not the holly grail.


It's just the Leader of the Pack. The word "Tivo" has virtually replaced "record" in the modern lexicon. I have so many friends with POS cable-co DVRs who frequently say the "Tivoed" something. I remind them that they didn't Tivo sh1te. And, you have to remember that for A LONG TIME, the HR10-250 was the only consumer DVR available that could record HD. Tivo should have been more agressive in negotiating with DirecTV. As sad as it is to say, when the HR10 goes, I'm afraid so does TiVo as a company. Sort of like Netscape, WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3 and others, who when the giants of industry decided they wanted to take over, lost out in the battle for market share.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And as the months have gone on, more and more people are realizing that... that wow... maybe, just maybe, "TiVo" is not the end-all-be-all


The more I use the HR20 and the more I find I can rely on it, the more I find TiVo to be just a bit overrated. OK, maybe when you first get a DVR you need a bit of hand holding, but after 6 years I don't need that. I'm at a point where I'm ready to see other options and, to this point, I'm enjoying using the HR20.


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## Allen Noland (Apr 23, 2002)

I just saw on CNBC where Liberty Media and News Corp have worked out a deal to take over DirecTV. Looks like Liberty will swap its stake in News Corp for News Corps stake in DirecTV.

Here is the story.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Saw that also, plus it's on a number of news web sites. Should be interesting to see how Malone handles the company going forward.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

News Corp. swaps DirecTV with Liberty


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Allen beat you to it, http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=74025


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Official Press Release from DirecTV:
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=944688&highlight=


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## alexrodriguez (Dec 6, 2006)

Sure hope they bring back the TiVo relationship.

Alex


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

alexrodriguez said:


> Sure hope they bring back the TiVo relationship.
> 
> Alex


I wouldn't count on it.

Here is a thread where we have hashed it out a bit
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73630&highlight=Liberty+Tivo


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## myselfalso (Jan 26, 2006)

What does this mean for Fox Sports Pittsburgh then?


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

This deal is not for better service, more HD, better quality. It is about making money. Consolidation of power by the big players. That is all. All be can hope for is that this new controlling company does not try to squeeze every cent of profit possible out of D* at the expence of all the improvements we would like to see.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Isn't that what all "stock swaps" are about, is $$
Considering this one, also appears to be able to "skirt" past taxes and everything.


The "leadership" of DirecTV doesn't appear to be changing...
But what is changing, is that those people may now get different answers to the requests of what they want to do with DirecTV


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

lwilli201 said:


> This deal is not for better service, more HD, better quality. It is about making money. Consolidation of power by the big players. That is all. All be can hope for is that this new controlling company does not try to squeeze every cent of profit possible out of D* at the expence of all the improvements we would like to see.


Well, Malone's past doesn't give me nuch hope for improvements. I hope I'm wrong, though.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

Colorado will now be home to both DBS companies!!


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## untouchable (Jun 24, 2006)

I wouldn't speak so fast...D* headquarters is still in El Segundo, Ca. I don't think they will up and move it...Yes one of their broadcast centers and a few other vital operations are in Colorado, but I wouldn't look for all of it to get moved to Colorado.


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## NoGoSlo (Nov 6, 2006)

I am a true Tivo hugger. I was an early adopter when it first came out, using it with cable and then DirecTV. I was an early purchaser of the integrated DirecTV/Tivo boxes and still have one in the motorhome and one in the spare bedroom. 

My wife and I would switch back to Tivo in an instant. I love some of the features on the HR20, but its reliability sucks, even with the latest downloads. We have missed many recordings, including the Survivor Reunion even though it was on the "to do" list and had an "R" on the guide. We have had to do a RBR almost once a week.

And, as for "true" HD on the MPEG4's, they still lose the audio on a regular basis, although I understand this is a satellite issue, not an HR20 issue.


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

alexrodriguez said:


> Sure hope they bring back the TiVo relationship.
> 
> Alex


I think that could only EVER happen if Tivo is bought by Liberty.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

So News Corp no longer had anything to do with D*? I wonder what this will mean for the Fox news and sports networks they have now?


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## marlen (Sep 2, 2006)

Phil T said:


> Colorado will now be home to both DBS companies!!


That should make merger negotiations easier....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

theratpatrol said:


> So News Corp no longer had anything to do with D*? I wonder what this will mean for the Fox news and sports networks they have now?


Nothing will change, until it is approved by their shareholders and regulatory officials.

What it means in the long run... probably nothing much... Fox News is still a very popular channel that will need to be carried, an the FSN's are still the main RSN's in most area's.


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## minnow (Apr 26, 2002)

theratpatrol said:


> So News Corp no longer had anything to do with D*? I wonder what this will mean for the Fox news and sports networks they have now?


More importantly, the plans next year for new satellites for improved HD content. A new owner could have new plans for that funding(like keeping it !)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

minnow said:


> More importantly, the plans next year for new satellites for improved HD content. A new owner could have new plans for that funding(like keeping it !)


If those Sat's don't go up, you can flat out kiss DirecTV good-bye.
Those SAT's are fundemental to their future as a HD Content provider
It is the only thing right now, that is keeping them in anyone's consideration as a HD Content provider

Besides... they have already shelled out $$$$$$$$ for them, all that is really left is the last round of tests and launching them.

Change of "ownership", doens't necessarily mean a change of direction.

DirecTV is still going to be "run" by the same people, at least for now.


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## flipper2006 (Oct 2, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Isn't that what all "stock swaps" are about, is $$
> Considering this one, also appears to be able to "skirt" past taxes and everything.
> 
> The "leadership" of DirecTV doesn't appear to be changing...
> But what is changing, is that those people may now get different answers to the requests of what they want to do with DirecTV


Well at least if all development stopped today, at least the HR20 works 'good' and has OTA/Music. (worst case scenario).


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## alexrodriguez (Dec 6, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nothing will change, until it is approved by their shareholders and regulatory officials.
> 
> What it means in the long run... probably nothing much... Fox News is still a very popular channel that will need to be carried, an the FSN's are still the main RSN's in most area's.


The day (if ever) they drop Fox News is the day I drop them.

Alex


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## alexrodriguez (Dec 6, 2006)

marlen said:


> That should make merger negotiations easier....


They should buy out XM radio and share the birds $$$.

Alex


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

jedi-phish said:


> It's just the Leader of the Pack. The word "Tivo" has virtually replaced "record" in the modern lexicon. I have so many friends with POS cable-co DVRs who frequently say the "Tivoed" something. I remind them that they didn't Tivo sh1te. And, you have to remember that for A LONG TIME, the HR10-250 was the only consumer DVR available that could record HD. Tivo should have been more agressive in negotiating with DirecTV. As sad as it is to say, when the HR10 goes, I'm afraid so does TiVo as a company. Sort of like Netscape, WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3 and others, who when the giants of industry decided they wanted to take over, lost out in the battle for market share.


Like "I need to XEROX this" as oppsoed to "I need to copy this".

Q-TIP
BAND-AID
SPAM

These are along the same lines. These are branded items.
Way off topic, sorry. I won't let it happen again.


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## wpbond69 (Nov 29, 2005)

The next rumor is that now Liberty might sell D* to AT&T.

Also, I've mentioned before, Liberty owns Starz/Encore. If they keep D*, expect them to increase the relationship between D* and Starz/Encore. Starz might be the main pay network offered for promotions, and Starz HD would probably be added quickly. Also if the Encore HD's are added/revived, then they would also find a home on D*.

Of course adding these will probably have to wait for the new satellites, unless they are so eager they bump something else.


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## jfalkingham (Dec 6, 2005)

Liberty will keep the current subscription base in place. That is ther revenue cow, and if you cancel they'll keep giving the sweet deals to maintain status quo. Innovation? Not likely given the track record of Liberty, cash flow preservation is key (as it should be) however without innovation and heavy investment they will not be the long term solution.

Ilove my Tivo's and will not use a DirecTV DVR until they fix the issues I experienced when I had an R15 for 2 weeks. I like the prices, more affordable than cable when I want a DVR on each tv, and less overall hassle. But......

I went to get DTV installed for my mom as a Christmas gift. I went over her house installed the new LCD tv, waited for installers (1 hour outside of the 4 hour window), could not get a line of sight, so I said thanks and called Comcast. They gave me a date the following week, a 3 hour window, showed up during that time and in under 30 mins had HD going great on her new TV.The DVR is just as good as the R15 (a little more responsive to the FF/Rew imo) and the on demand was outstanding. TONS of free content that is actually good, like the movie collection, etc. 

Their pricing is sill out of control when it comes to multiple TV's, but they do have a better overall product experience, IMO. FiOS seems to have the best of both worlds, content and price. How DirecTV will compete in that space is an interesting topic.


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## FLWingNut (Nov 19, 2005)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Like "I need to XEROX this" as oppsoed to "I need to copy this".
> 
> Q-TIP
> BAND-AID
> ...


Or "Tivo.":hurah:

My wife used to work for Xerox; the company was serious about "protecting their trademark," trying to get people to say "photocopy" instead of Xeroxing. Coke is another example.


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

theratpatrol said:


> So News Corp no longer had anything to do with D*? I wonder what this will mean for the Fox news and sports networks they have now?


Absolutely nothing.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

I wouldn't wonder about the established properties like Fox Sports or Fox News Channel, but some of the ones that they have launched on the back of DirecTv like Fox Reality channel, and I think another on or so (Don't they have a deal to show video gaming tournaments backed by their IGN web property?)

I would suspect those would be more vulnerable, but I also suspect there was probably some potential coverage consideration giving for a period of time as part of the swap, of course that is baseless speculation on my part.

By the way, I will be getting my first H20 next week. I have had a TiVo since the first came out, and I presently have 5 active TiVo boxes and 3 inactive ones. Looking forward to getting the H20. I used to be a huge TiVo zealot, but in hindsight almost all of the real value in TiVo for me existed when the box first came out. In terms of what they provided for me, short of dual-tuners on a DirectTivo, very little of what they have done has improved the experience much at all. So I give them huge credit and an A++ for the initial TiVo implementation, but I give them a D- for their growth, upgrade, maintenance and features path since then.


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

marksman said:


> ...
> By the way, I will be getting my first H20 next week. I have had a TiVo since the first came out, and I presently have 5 active TiVo boxes and 3 inactive ones. Looking forward to getting the H20. I used to be a huge TiVo zealot, but in hindsight almost all of the real value in TiVo for me existed when the box first came out. In terms of what they provided for me, short of dual-tuners on a DirectTivo, very little of what they have done has improved the experience much at all. So I give them huge credit and an A++ for the initial TiVo implementation, but I give them a D- for their growth, upgrade, maintenance and features path since then.


I suspect that you mean the HR20. The H20 is a non-DVR HD receiver


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## adam1115 (Dec 16, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I wouldn't count on it.
> 
> Here is a thread where we have hashed it out a bit
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73630&highlight=Liberty+Tivo


Uhm,  that's THIS thread....


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

The latest interviews with Malone have him emphasizing research and additions dealing with Internet access via satellite. Gossip indicates a possible relationship with Wildblue to start.

WB apparently offers technical improvements over HughesNet/DirecWay -- on paper -- though their CSR's have a reputation somewhat akin to your friendly neighborhood loan shark.

Of course, the gamer crowd is always screwed because of latency.


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## mocciat (Oct 17, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Like "I need to XEROX this" as oppsoed to "I need to copy this".
> 
> Q-TIP
> BAND-AID
> ...


Kleenex


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

mocciat said:


> Kleenex


Scotch Tape.

Why is Spam on that list? Because of it's use as a term for bulk email? That's not the same thing. If people started calling all canned meat Spam, then THAT would be the same thing.....wow...WAY off topic....


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the "true" HD... That is just a technological limitation right now.
> Once the new SATs are launched, and the existing MPEG-2 HD's are converted to MPEG4..
> "True" HD, will be there.
> 
> ...


OTOH DirecTV and DIshnetwork with their MPEG4 have added a re-encoding step to an already encoded MPEG2 video stream. Thus no matter the resolution it cannot be quite as good as if they had just taken the OTA video and distributed it. Plus I'm not real sure that the current crop of encoders are as good as they will eventually become. In part due to being a early work out the bugs design and the fact that they have to work at realtime speed. No taking the 2 hour video and taking 8 hours to encode using multiple passes to get the best quality.

On the Tivo I use a standalone Series 1 (Lifetime sub) and some of the features that many Tivo'ites rave about were the first I turned off when I got it years ago. Including activating the 30 second skip vs fast forwarding through commercials and suggestions and the dang noises. Plus speed, But as my first DVR I did lifetime it and I still use it with basic cable for overflow.

I'll go one step further, I've always preferred to go through the guide once a week and pick what to record vs Tivo's season passes. My one recurring timer is the 11Pm news on WCBS in NYC.

Going back to true HD and I do not know the answer to this question either, if anyone does know?

Is it true HD if it isn't MPEG2? Or does the HD Specs allow MPEG4? IOWs would the tuner in my TV tune a HD Channel in MPEG4 and decode it?

Cheers


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

ApK said:


> Scotch Tape.
> 
> Why is Spam on that list? Because of it's use as a term for bulk email? That's not the same thing. If people started calling all canned meat Spam, then THAT would be the same thing.....wow...WAY off topic....


Honestly I'm not sure why I listed SPAM. It probably popped into my head because of junk mail. You're right though, it shouldn't have been included.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

I was born in raised in the home of SPAM, Austin Minnesota. And in fact my Dad worked for 31 years at Hormel in their factory. He didn't make SPAM, but did de-bone Cure 81 hams, which I think is probably Hormel's second most know brand.


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## amazingthinkingcommonsens (Dec 25, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> No one knows what will happen until it happens. I would make a guess that it's going to be pretty low on the priority list though. Having the whole box in their control in the end makes for a better business decision. If anything came out of it with TiVo I would think that it would be a purchase of them by DTV and I don't really know if that will ever happen.


O YEAH, WHAT COMPANY WOULD WANT TO OWN THE DEVICE THAT IN EVERYONES MIND = DVR .......

THAT WOULD GIVE THEM A FOOT IN THEIR COMPETITORS HOUSE ( CABLE)

YEA ...... AMAZES ME HOW STUPID THESE BILLION DOLLAR PEOPLE HAVE NO BRAINS ON HOW TO DO THINGS

I WOULD BUY TIVO IN A HOT SECOND, CAUSE THEN YOU ARE ON THE INSIDE OF YOUR COMPETITOR AND COULD SIPHON OFF CUSTOMERS FROM THEM


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## amazingthinkingcommonsens (Dec 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the "true" HD... That is just a technological limitation right now.
> Once the new SATs are launched, and the existing MPEG-2 HD's are converted to MPEG4..
> "True" HD, will be there.
> 
> ...


A NIGHT B4 XMAS, AND ALL THE SHILLS WERE NESTLED WITH THE FREE GOODIES THAT BUY THEIR OPINIONS (AND THOUGHTS OF MORE) DANCING IN THEIR HEADS.......................................

NOW ON TO THE REAL MEAT...

O YEAH, WHO WOULD WANT FULL GUIDE DATA SO WE COULD SEE ALL WHO IN SHOW......

WHO WOULD WANT SAVED SEARCHES, SO WE CAN SAVE A STEP AND NOT HAVE REDO SEARCHES ALL TIME ....

YOUR BIAS AND LACK OF STATING COMMON SENSE FLOORS ME


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

ApK said:


> Scotch Tape.
> 
> Why is Spam on that list? Because of it's use as a term for bulk email? That's not the same thing. If people started calling all canned meat Spam, then THAT would be the same thing.....wow...WAY off topic....


I would probably use 'SPAM' to refer to any 'Canned Meat-like Substance', although, I really can't think of any others. 
Actually, when you think about about it, "SPAM' has an unfair advantage in the canned meat-like substance market. Congress needs to address this! Where is Specter...  

- sorry, couldn't help it...


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

BattleScott said:


> I would probably use 'SPAM' to refer to any 'Canned Meat-like Substance', although, I really can't think of any others.
> Actually, when you think about about it, "SPAM' has an unfair advantage in the canned meat-like substance market. Congress needs to address this! Where is Specter...
> 
> - sorry, couldn't help it...


I think Armour Star brand used to have a competitor... IIRC, it went by the name "Treat". Can anyone help with this?


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

It's "Treet", and apparently is still available. It differs from Spam by using chicken and pork, rather than ham and pork http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treet.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Several brands of Corned Beef out there, also.


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## TheKnobber (Dec 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the "true" HD... That is just a technological limitation right now.
> Once the new SATs are launched, and the existing MPEG-2 HD's are converted to MPEG4..
> "True" HD, will be there.
> 
> ...


Earl, you are a valued contributor to this list, so its even more painful to read such comments from you. Its pretty clear that you lack the ability to be impartial when it comes to TiVo/DirecTV debates.

The HR-20 is not what it should be. Look at all the postings about unplayable recordings and missed recordings. Not to mention all of the various bugs that still continue to plaque the device, months after initial release and after many patches.

Many people on this list are techies, and as such are used to software downloads, hard resets, and spending time debugging problems. I assure you that is not the demographic of the average DirecTV customer. The true test of a product is when my Mom (who is 60) can use the device and not have any problems. The HR-20 is in no way close to that (necessary) level of reliability and ease of use. It has the potential to be a decent DVR, but I get the sense that the management, developers and QA teams are either understaffed, overwhelmed, or not experienced enough to produce the extremely high quality of product necessary. As someone who spent 20 years developing and managing high tech teams, its clear to me that something is not right there.When you have forums filled with users posting problems and venting its pretty clear that there are serious issues.

All of us tend to selectively weight information to align with our beliefs and needs. You see this during polling of political debates, where each side feels like its candidate won the debate. I think its important to understand those hidden biases when evaluating data and responding. While I too may have such a bias it seems clear to me that you do as well. Sometimes just recognizing that can help in understanding and evaluating things more impartially.


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## weaselfest (Dec 29, 2006)

having worked for TCI cable during John Malone's tenure as CEO, I am nervous about the future of D*. This is the guy that tried to drop MTV, Comedy Central , VH-1, WGN, amoungst others, from cable lineups starving for upgrades.
Acceptable subscriber losses for increased profit margin, Mr. Bottomline. Any deal that gets his company out of it's tax obligations.
If you think Charlie Ergen is a tough nut to deal with, wait until you get a load of this guy. He didn't get the nickname of Darth Vader for nothing.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

While some people feel that Mr. Malone will be bad for DirecTV.I will look forward to his stay with interest because I consider the Starz/Encore programming one of the best values on DirecTV.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

I am kind of puzzled by all the tivo lovers and comparing to hr20. Don't get me wrong, I loved my tivo too, but I got a broken in version, only about 18 monts ago-- if that -- when I jumped on the bandwagon.

My understanding is that tivo, when it was first launched, was also a POS, with nightmarish behavior and like any firmware driven device, had to be fixed, improved, updated etc until it was a smooth operator.

HR20 is a pretty new device I beleive. I for one think it probably should not have been released until they did a formal beta test on it with maybe 1000 people across the country. But marketing is what drives companies. 

But people speak of tivo like it was the holy grail, and from what I understand it experienced many many problems at its launch as well. ANd I even hear they have an HD version now and its got lots of problems. So maybe I am missing something here, but seems time is what the HR20 needs, just like tivo did when it was born.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

HolmesCo said:


> But people speak of tivo like it was the holy grail, and from what I understand it experienced many many problems at its launch as well. ANd I even hear they have an HD version now and its got lots of problems. So maybe I am missing something here, but seems time is what the HR20 needs, just like tivo did when it was born.


The question is not what these two DVRs where like when introduced but more centers around the fact that when Tivo was young, the DVR industry was also young. There were few DVRs out there and no real standard to base a DVR on. Today there are standards and accepted functionality (Tivo and UTV to name a couple). Bugs aside. Even if the HR20 worked perfectly as designed, it is still lacking some important functionality that DTVs previous DVRs included. UTV and Tivo set the bar to DVRs and the HR20 came in under stand bar....again, bugs aside.

Given that, I doubt we'd see any rekindling of a DTV/Tivo relationship despite who owns DTV.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Wolffpack said:


> Even if the HR20 worked perfectly as designed, it is still lacking some important functionality that DTVs previous DVRs included. UTV and Tivo set the bar to DVRs and the HR20 came in under stand bar....again, bugs aside.


Besides the dual buffer feature, what are the other important functionality that the D* Tivo's (not the UTV since D* pulled the plug on them a number of years before Tivo) had that the HR20 doesn't? I'm not talking about a box that's been hacked (I notice in your sig you've been a busy beaver) but a non-modified box.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> The question is not what these two DVRs where like when introduced but more centers around the fact that when Tivo was young, the DVR industry was also young. There were few DVRs out there and no real standard to base a DVR on. Today there are standards and accepted functionality (Tivo and UTV to name a couple). Bugs aside. Even if the HR20 worked perfectly as designed, it is still lacking some important functionality that DTVs previous DVRs included. UTV and Tivo set the bar to DVRs and the HR20 came in under stand bar....again, bugs aside.
> 
> Given that, I doubt we'd see any rekindling of a DTV/Tivo relationship despite who owns DTV.


Yes that certainly makes good sense. I am painfully aware of things lacking in the hr20 that I miss with the tivo, first and foremeost of course being the DLB. I was frankly astonished when I got the box and found out it didn't have these. It never occurred to me it would be that way. Who designs a box with two inputs but no ability to switch between those inputs and keep the other one live, retaining its data. Baffles me.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

RAD said:


> Besides the dual buffer feature, what are the other important functionality that the D* Tivo's (not the UTV since D* pulled the plug on them a number of years before Tivo) had that the HR20 doesn't? I'm not talking about a box that's been hacked (I notice in your sig you've been a busy beaver) but a non-modified box.


As I don't have a HR20, I will compare a stock DTivo functionality with the DVR+ unit I have which is the R15 (not much different than the HR20). What is the R15 lacking?

As you mentioned, dual live buffers;
Dynamic guide options that provide guide filters for channels showing particular types of shows at the current time (for example, selecting Movies shows only channels showing movies right now);
Guide data needing to be reloaded every time the unit is reset;
Channels I receive not being correct and not being editable;
History screen that actually tells you something useful;
30 second skip versus slip (yes, this is available on Tivos without a hack);
Lacking guide data....original air date is missing;
Lacking guide data....only the first 3 actors names are stored versus Tivo's guide with up to 6 or more actors (effects autorecords based on actors);
Lacking guide data....writers information is missing;
Limit of 50 Series Links;
Limit of 100 To do list items;
Limit of 50 History items;
Not allowing Series Links to be edited if episodes don't appear in the To Do List;
Not allowing Series Links to be setup for the same show on different channels;
Setting Keep at most to 1-5 or all without the option of 10 (5 is too little, all is too many);
Search logic that requires "the" or "a" be entered in a title;
To do list logic that populates only minutes before a program is to record;
and Keep At Most/Keep Until I Delete logic that makes no sense (this has been discussed many times before).
Even if the R15 had no bugs, these items I've listed (and I'm sure I've missed some) are deficiencies in the unit based on tasks that previous DVRs (like Tivo) performed. Some of these items hold more importance than others, but these are functions that any DTV customer with a DVR prior to the DVR+ line were accustom to and are now lacking.

Now, if you'd like me to add to this list the bugs, I can do that also but I'm sure that's been beaten like a dead horse.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

RAD said:


> Besides the dual buffer feature, what are the other important functionality that the D* Tivo's (not the UTV since D* pulled the plug on them a number of years before Tivo) had that the HR20 doesn't? I'm not talking about a box that's been hacked (I notice in your sig you've been a busy beaver) but a non-modified box.


Not to pick but I thought it was MS that pulled the UTV plug not DTV?


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Wolffpack said:


> As I don't have a HR20, I will compare a stock DTivo functionality with the DVR+ unit I have which is the R15 (not much different than the HR20). What is the R15 lacking?
> 
> As you mentioned, dual live buffers;
> Dynamic guide options that provide guide filters for channels showing particular types of shows at the current time (for example, selecting Movies shows only channels showing movies right now);
> ...


I guess your definition of important is way different then mine. While a number of the items you have in your important list I would classify in the nice to have list, and some you listed even the Tivo didn't do, like guide data needing to be reloaded.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

jedi-phish said:


> Tivo should have been more agressive in negotiating with DirecTV. As sad as it is to say, when the HR10 goes, I'm afraid so does TiVo as a company.


From what I've been reading on some other forums, Tivo is now negotiating with Comcast and are in test to download their software to the Comcast Motorola Cable DVR boxes. They expect this to happen nationally sometime in 2007.

Naturally, there will be an additional cost to Comcast subscribers, who I believe number significantly higher than DirecTV subscribers. So, Tivo, as a company, may not be gone as quickly as you think.

I would hope that DTV would take a look at what Comcast is doing and possibly make the same offer to HR-20 subscribers... and also bring back ALL the local HD channels, not just the -1 programming.


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## Ken Massingale (Nov 30, 2006)

Ed Campbell said:


> The latest interviews with Malone have him emphasizing research and additions dealing with Internet access via satellite. Gossip indicates a possible relationship with Wildblue to start.
> 
> WB apparently offers technical improvements over HughesNet/DirecWay -- on paper -- though their CSR's have a reputation somewhat akin to your friendly neighborhood loan shark.
> 
> Of course, the gamer crowd is always screwed because of latency.


Liberty has been a major investor in Wildblue since day 1 and recently increased it's investment, http://wildblue.com/company/doPressReleaseDetailsAction.do?pressReleaseID=14

http://wildblue.com/company/doPressReleaseDetailsAction.do?pressReleaseID=34
We've used Wildblue for 18 months and their first tier support are about as capable as those at other support centers.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

RAD said:


> I guess your definition of important is way different then mine. While a number of the items you have in your important list I would classify in the nice to have list, and some you listed even the Tivo didn't do, like guide data needing to be reloaded.


Regardless of what individuals view as important, those items were left out of DTVs next generation of DVRs (DVR+) as compared to Tivos.

Tivos do not loose their guide data during a reset/reboot. Immediately after a reset you have complete access to the amount of guide data the Tivo had prior to the reset.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Wolffpack said:


> Tivos do not loose their guide data during a reset/reboot. Immediately after a reset you have complete access to the amount of guide data the Tivo had prior to the reset.


Then I guess mine were broken since after a reboot I didn't have the 14 days worth of guide data available.

Plus, just because something was available on a prior version of a product doesn't mean that it needs/should be included in the next. Have you noticed that car makers, for example, drop items from prior model years that just aren't important anymore, such as key locks on the passenger door or cigarette lighers or ash trays? PC makers do the same thing, it's hard to find a PC or laptop that comes with a floppy drive anymore.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Just going by memory here, but as best I remember if I choose the "Restart" option or unplug and re-plug my DTiVo units, once they are back to the menu screens, guide data is still populated as it was before.

If I run through a full blown "Guided set-up" again, guide data needs the time to repopulate.


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

No, the guide data is flushed as part of a simple reset ("Restart the Recorder"). If it wasn't how would you fix the "To Be Announced" problem where all channels have that OSD? It's just that with TiVo, it only takes 30 minutes for the guide to fully fill in. It takes 24 hours to do the same on the R15.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> Regardless of what individuals view as important, those items were left out of DTVs next generation of DVRs (DVR+) as compared to Tivos.
> 
> Tivos do not loose their guide data during a reset/reboot. Immediately after a reset you have complete access to the amount of guide data the Tivo had prior to the reset.


FYI that a good number of those issues you listed above have been addressed in the HR20.

From what I remember of my DirecTivo's (SD versions only), whenever it was rebooted it took a good day or so for all the guide data to fill up. The first day or two was available pretty much right away though. So not too much different (from the HR20 anyway, I don't have the R15).


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## AnonomissX (Jun 29, 2006)

Both the DirectvTivo and the R15 drop all guide info when rebooted or lose power. However time to repopulate the full guide?

Tivo: 20-30 minutes
R15: 24 hours

This is because the Tivo stores the info on the hardrrive, but the R15 stores it in RAM...Of all the features vs bugs this is the one I hate the most on the R15, since you cant set up recordings by searching for programs up to 24 hrs later...I don't have that kind of time to wait!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I just rebooted one of my HDVR2s. Immediately after it came up the todo list was completely populated through 1/10 with all program names and info. A search for Seinfeld shows all episode info through 1/9. So please explain to me what part of the guide is lost on Tivos during a reset. What am I missing?

There were no "To be announced".

*EDIT: I even spent time paging through the guide and browsing out to 1/06 and all of the guide data is there.*


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> FYI that a good number of those issues you listed above have been addressed in the HR20.


That's what I'm figuring out but there are still glaring design differences between the units.



bonscott87 said:


> From what I remember of my DirecTivo's (SD versions only), whenever it was rebooted it took a good day or so for all the guide data to fill up. The first day or two was available pretty much right away though. So not too much different (from the HR20 anyway, I don't have the R15).


That's just not the way my DTivo units have ever worked. See my notes from the post above this.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

RAD said:


> Then I guess mine were broken since after a reboot I didn't have the 14 days worth of guide data available.
> 
> Plus, just because something was available on a prior version of a product doesn't mean that it needs/should be included in the next. Have you noticed that car makers, for example, drop items from prior model years that just aren't important anymore, such as key locks on the passenger door or cigarette lighers or ash trays? PC makers do the same thing, it's hard to find a PC or laptop that comes with a floppy drive anymore.


Then I guess yours were broken, the DTivo units I have keep the full guide data.

Eliminating something that is no longer needed isn't at all what I was getting at. I don't see any of the items I mentioned above as being "obsolete" such as floppy drives. As far as cigarette lighters go, those were made an option on some vehicles for a short period of time and then were added back on to most all vehicles currently being sold other than the real economy models. Are you suggesting the DVR+ is an economy model and we should just not expect it to have the same features as it's predicesor?

We are getting this thread OT but I would welcome the continuation of this discussion in it's own thread. For this one we should get back to discussing Liberty.


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## AnonomissX (Jun 29, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Then I guess yours were broken, the DTivo units I have keep the full guide data.
> 
> Eliminating something that is no longer needed isn't at all what I was getting at. I don't see any of the items I mentioned above as being "obsolete" such as floppy drives. As far as cigarette lighters go, those were made an option on some vehicles for a short period of time and then were added back on to most all vehicles currently being sold other than the real economy models. Are you suggesting the DVR+ is an economy model and we should just not expect it to have the same features as it's predicesor?
> 
> We are getting this thread OT but I would welcome the continuation of this discussion in it's own thread. For this one we should get back to discussing Liberty.


No, Wolffpack, yours must be magical:lol:

What is happening is the guide data loads MUCH faster into the Tivo then the R15 after a reset/unplug. It loads the national channels first, the locals post last in my experience. Also, that last minute chug waiting for it to let you into the guide after it reaches 100% data from the satellite? Its RESETTING UP THE GUIDE CHANNELS FOR YOU.

With all due respect, I was right the first time.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

AnonomissX said:


> No, Wolffpack, yours must be magical:lol:
> 
> What is happening is the guide data loads MUCH faster into the Tivo then the R15 after a reset/unplug. It loads the national channels first, the locals post last in my experience. Also, that last minute chug waiting for it to let you into the guide after it reaches 100% data from the satellite? Its RESETTING UP THE GUIDE CHANNELS FOR YOU.
> 
> With all due respect, I was right the first time.


So what you're saying is that during the time in which the progress bar is increasing from 0-100% the Tivo can fill it's guide. Yet the R15 goes through that same process and can't complete it's guide for another 24-48 hours? That's even more glaring as a feature that the designers of the R15/HR20 messed up on.


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## AnonomissX (Jun 29, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So what you're saying is that during the time in which the progress bar is increasing from 0-100% the Tivo can fill it's guide. Yet the R15 goes through that same process and can't complete it's guide for another 24-48 hours? That's even more glaring as a feature that the designers of the R15/HR20 messed up on.


Its not COMPLETELY filled, but you get a days worth...then within 20-30 minutes, the full 14 day guide fills in for the Tivo.

A full 24 hours for the same details on the R15? GLARING is the word


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> I just rebooted one of my HDVR2s. Immediately after it came up the todo list was completely populated through 1/10 with all program names and info. A search for Seinfeld shows all episode info through 1/9. So please explain to me what part of the guide is lost on Tivos during a reset. What am I missing?
> 
> There were no "To be announced".
> 
> *EDIT: I even spent time paging through the guide and browsing out to 1/06 and all of the guide data is there.*


If you had no data and Tivo had to DL the data it could take up to 24 hours for the guide data to be reconstructed once again. If you had it though it didn't lose it on a reboot. I do agree with you thought that this would be a nice addition to the R15 and HR20, even though it's not a huge deal for me. I don't do much major searching for shows multiple days out after a reboot. Having the 24 hours of needed data right away holds me over I would say at least 98% of the time.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

AnonomissX said:


> Its not COMPLETELY filled, but you get a days worth...then within 20-30 minutes, the full 14 day guide fills in for the Tivo.
> 
> A full 24 hours for the same details on the R15? GLARING is the word


I booted two DTivos now. Each time as soon as live TV came on I went into the Todo list and searched for a particular show. The TDL was full and the guide contained show data through 01/10. That was not 20-30 minutes.

Why is it you think it works this way when just today I've done this on two DTivo units and the guide data was complete?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> If you had no data and Tivo had to DL the data it could take up to 24 hours for the guide data to be reconstructed once again. If you had it though it didn't lose it on a reboot. I do agree with you thought that this would be a nice addition to the R15 and HR20, even though it's not a huge deal for me. I don't do much major searching for shows multiple days out after a reboot. Having the 24 hours of needed data right away holds me over I would say at least 98% of the time.


I understand and agree that if you do a Program data/TDL delete on a Tivo you loose all of the guide data and it takes at least 24 hours to repopulate. The disagreement AnonomissX and I are having is that on a simple reboot Tivos don't loose guide data, that when it comes up the guide is complete and AnonomissX states this is not true.


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## adam1115 (Dec 16, 2003)

HolmesCo said:


> I am kind of puzzled by all the tivo lovers and comparing to hr20. Don't get me wrong, I loved my tivo too, but I got a broken in version, only about 18 monts ago-- if that -- when I jumped on the bandwagon.
> 
> My understanding is that tivo, when it was first launched, was also a POS, with nightmarish behavior and like any firmware driven device, had to be fixed, improved, updated etc until it was a smooth operator.
> 
> ...


Well, sure, TiVo experienced bugs and problems in the beginnings. But they've worked them out.

I think most of the people frustrated with the new DVR's are in the category of "if it aint broke, don't fix it!"

DirecTV scrapped the successful and highly relieable TiVo DVR's to completely start from scratch, introducing GOBS of problems that they didn't have previously. Why should the end users have to endure a whole round of bug fixes and unreliable DVR's every time the provider decides to re-engineer things that don't need to be re-engineered..?

I hear weekly from my parents (who have never used a TiVo) about major issues they have with their R15, and how pissed they are that I recommended them to DirecTV...


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## HDSeeker (Dec 22, 2006)

I hate to admit it, but I had a Tivo and then I got the HR-20.
I am really trying to justify the new unit.
The truth is everyone is trying to justify it because the past is the past, and we all need to move on.
But, every time I go upstairs and turn on the old Tivo, it just feels right.
It's just not because I got use to using the Tivo, its just a far superior unit hands down.
the whole interface is much more user friendly.
But life goes on.
If the Tivo and the HR-20 were both females.
I would say the HR-20 has the best body,
but I would marry the Tivo for her IQ.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

So you'd love your HR10 but sleep with the HR20? :lol:


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> [*]Limit of 50 Series Links;
> [*]Limit of 100 To do list items;
> [*]Not allowing Series Links to be edited if episodes don't appear in the To Do List;
> [*]Not allowing Series Links to be setup for the same show on different channels;
> [*]To do list logic that populates only minutes before a program is to record;


the above are 100% dealbreakers for us.

you must be joking...someone, please correct him! I'd have to leave directv if that unit was my only option. For example, with all yesterday's shows/marathons, I think i had a ton in the history as not being recording (dups etc) and if I couldnt look out at least until next weekend, I'd be in big trouble. (50 is insane) It almost sounds like you have to babysit that unit more closely than an infant. We are power users with huge SP lists on both units. And some shows are on 2 different channels. IF you can't sit down on a sunday and spend 15 minutes looking at history for the upcoming week to resolve conflicts or mistakes on our part, we'd be very frustrated.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Wow ... this thread really wandered off-topic quite a few times, didn't it? 

I really have nothing new to add to the discussion, but to say that I'm hopeful that DirecTV under Malone could open discussions with TiVo to port it to an MPEG4 platform, and maybe add several features that non-TiVo receivers have (like interactive, caller-id, pip, etc.)

A guy can hope, eh?


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## hfhlt004 (Nov 19, 2005)

Hey guys, you seem to be laboring over a moot point. Direct is not going back to HDTivo. So why all the comparisons? It seems the decision remains, you either stay with Directv or not.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

hfhlt004 said:


> Hey guys, you seem to be laboring over a moot point. Direct is not going back to HDTivo. So why all the comparisons? It seems the decision remains, you either stay with Directv or not.


Never say never. DirecTV has hinted at (and even announced) things that have not happened, so why can't things happen that have not been announced or even hinted at?


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Wow! 96 posts prior to mine and only about 5 or 6 of them actually discussed the original main topic. 

Now, on the topic of Tivos vs. other DVRs, many of you seem to be missing what really sets them apart from all other DVRs on the planet. I'm talking about the ability to add features over and above what comes with a stock unit. A Tivo is a hacker's dream machine and nothing else even comes close in this category. The sky's pretty much the limit when it comes to adding more recording capacity. Some DVRs may allow you to upgrade their drives but generally have certain limitations.

If you are just looking for a box that will record your favorite shows when you tell it then there are lots of DVRs that will do that for you (or at least most of the time). Tivo has been around longer than everyone except maybe ReplayTV so their software is more mature and bug-free than others. In that respect, even a stock Tivo will work better than most other DVRs and is more reliable.

I have no incentive to get an HR20 at the moment since my HDTivos currently receive at least as many HDTV channels as the HR20 or H20. OTOH, since I currently record mostly OTA HDTV channels I'm in the process of building a HTPC which would eliminate the need for any DTV-based DVR if everything works as advertised. I haven't read too many comparisons of HTPC timeshifting software vs. Tivo or any other mainstream DVR so I'll have to wait and see how well it works.


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## jjcaudle (Sep 29, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the "true" HD... That is just a technological limitation right now.
> Once the new SATs are launched, and the existing MPEG-2 HD's are converted to MPEG4..
> "True" HD, will be there.
> 
> ...


I have left D* for cox cable and the Tivo System 3. No problem with cable cards and no clunky D* DVRs. Of course we don't have Comcast here in Fairfax like everyone else in the DC area. Very happy with cable. They came and took the dish down and gave me half price for a year. and if I don't like them FIOS is coming as competition.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Aside from Rupert's desire to use his own(owned) NDS platform, why did D* "need" to switch away from the TIVO offering? In what way was the previous D*/TIVO relationship not a good one for DTV to have continued?


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

There was some discussion about this over at TCF, but the amount of chatter about DirecTV has very much died down over there ...

Here's what I posted when news broke that the agreement was reached between Liberty and News Corp.:


> Regarding HD: I wouldn't be upset if we got Starz HD sooner than later, but at what cost? Can they add another HD channel NOW without overcompressing other channels? Or what channel would have to be dropped to do it?
> 
> Regarding DVR platforms, I see three options under Malone:
> 
> ...


Earl followed up with this:


> There is option 2b
> 
> Renegotiate with TiVo, and allow them to develop a DirecTV compatible DVR (similar to the original relationship with TiVo and Microsfot UTV)
> 
> While still doing their own DVR


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

I hope that Liberty brings back TIVO, they get more hd networks. 

and let customers link their DVR's at home, so you can watch multiple programs regardless of which machine recorded it.

also, DONT disable HDTV outputs that allow us to backup programs we want to things like Blu-Ray discs


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

mitchelljd said:


> I hope that Liberty brings back TIVO, they get more hd networks.
> 
> and let customers link their DVR's at home, so you can watch multiple programs regardless of which machine recorded it.
> 
> also, DONT disable HDTV outputs that allow us to backup programs we want to things like Blu-Ray discs


I couldn't agree more.


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## traderfjp (Dec 25, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I couldn't agree more.


My last Tivo HD DVR was very frustrating. It worked very slow. Tivo engineers designed this box with too little memory. The SD Tivo boxes all work great that I have. The new HR-20 HD DVR is having some growing pains but also has some nice features my old Tico HD DVR doesn't have. For example this new box is very speedy, I can hook up an external hard drive which is a huge plus, there are folders, saved searches, a picture to watch when you're in the guide OTA support and a back lit remote which I just received. It has bigger buttons and works great. There were a few things I liked better with Tivo but I think there are pluses and minuses to each system and we shouldn't overlook the good in the HR-20.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

untouchable said:


> and Time Warner says that you will never lose your picture when it rains or storms, but guess what?? you do lose it...wait, D* should start countering their lawsuit and take them to court over their commercials...if they won, the could get better HD


The cable companies like to point to rain fade as a problem with satellite. What they fail to mention is that rain fade is self-correcting and usually last only a few minutes at most. If your cable goes out, which is not an uncommon occurrence (even when there isn't a storm), it is likely to be out for days, not minutes. And it won't necessarily clear up on its own - usually you'll have to call the cable company. Most people who have had cable TV are familiar with the typical response from the cable company when they report an outage or service problem. It goes something like "We'll send someone out there the first of next week".


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the "true" HD... That is just a technological limitation right now.
> Once the new SATs are launched, and the existing MPEG-2 HD's are converted to MPEG4..
> "True" HD, will be there.
> 
> ...


I'm puzzled by the comments about PQ and not having "true HD". Since I went to HD a few weeks ago with a new 46" LCD, I've been amazed at how good the picture quality is. I read a lot of stuff about how HDTVs are optimized to look good in the store, but it has looked just as good in my living room. Both the MPEG-4 locals and the premium channels look great - in fact, it's hard to watch anything in SD any more.

I agree with Earl's comments about the HR20 as well - it has a lot of bugs, but it isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be. It certainly beats having to watch everything live. The black screen bug is the worst of the problems, since it causes missed recordings. If they fix that, I can live with having to reset the DVR occasionally.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> I'm puzzled by the comments about PQ and not having "true HD". Since I went to HD a few weeks ago with a new 46" LCD, I've been amazed at how good the picture quality is. I read a lot of stuff about how HDTVs are optimized to look good in the store, but it has looked just as good in my living room. Both the MPEG-4 locals and the premium channels look great - in fact, it's hard to watch anything in SD any more.
> 
> I agree with Earl's comments about the HR20 as well - it has a lot of bugs, but it isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be. It certainly beats having to watch everything live. The black screen bug is the worst of the problems, since it causes missed recordings. If they fix that, I can live with having to reset the DVR occasionally.


I agree. I heard for weeks about how average the picture quality was but 2 months into my HD service and I couldn't be happier with my service and 46 inch Sony HDTV.

I get 3x better pictures then before


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## dgordo (Aug 29, 2004)

Did see HD 2,3 or 5 years ago? If you did you would not be happy with the current picture quality.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

dgordo said:


> Did see HD 2,3 or 5 years ago? If you did you would not be happy with the current picture quality.


2, 3, or 5 years ago...
Is before a lot of the $$$ factors really started to go into play.

You where looking at $30k Plasmas... $5k-$10k for a display device.

And usually material that was pre-recorded, tweaked for the OPTIMAL picture quality... to get people to drop that kind of money on those display devices.

Now... you are running into... We want MORE HD... MORE HD... but the infrastructure (which cost $$$), hasn't caught up yet.


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## dgordo (Aug 29, 2004)

I agree with everything you said Earl. That doesnt change the fact that picture quality has gone down.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

dgordo said:


> I agree with everything you said Earl. That doesnt change the fact that picture quality has gone down.


No... you are right...

I guess I am just getting tired of reading complaints about the HD quality.
When nothing can be done about it, until there is more bandwith... or you drop some of the channels.

Even in it's current form... it is still better then the SD alternatives.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2007)

I only saw it in stores 2, 3, or 5 years ago, but I don't remember it looking any better than what I'm seeing now. It's hard to believe anyone could be unhappy with the HD picture quality on DirecTV. If they add new channels as planned and the picture quality stays as good as it is now, I'll be happy.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Even in it's current form... it is still better then the SD alternatives.


Don't say that to the folks that can't stand TNT-HD's "stretch o vision", they prefer to watch the SD channel:sure:


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

RAD said:


> Don't say that to the folks that can't stand TNT-HD's "stretch o vision", they prefer to watch the SD channel:sure:


It's more that we prefer to watch a show in it's original format and don't appreciate any broadcaster taking artistic license with a show and not letting the customer adjust the picture. I prefer watching X-Files on TNT in HD but I'd rather TNT broadcast it in 4:3 and let the viewer "stretch" it if he or she wishes.


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

wneilson82 said:


> I agree. I heard for weeks about how average the picture quality was but 2 months into my HD service and I couldn't be happier with my service and 46 inch Sony HDTV.
> 
> I get 3x better pictures then before


There are certaily certain programs where we notice the difference. We have the H20. Fox's presentation of the NCAA Football championship was outstanding. However, there are certain shows (even on Discovery HD) where you notice a difference in the faces and other items. Sometimes it's spectacular and other times so-so.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

Honestly, I never watched a single game on TV until a few months back.

I bought my HDTV 2 months ago and then got D*

Going from my last TV to my current HDTV is like night/day

I am very happy...if it gets better...fantastic


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## dgordo (Aug 29, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> No... you are right...
> 
> I guess I am just getting tired of reading complaints about the HD quality.
> When nothing can be done about it, until there is more bandwith... or you drop some of the channels.
> ...


I agree, nothing can be done about it at this point and complaining is pointless. I also get tired of reading posts that infer that my tv is bad or I need glasses or there is something wrong with the setup of my tv because I think the Hd qualit has gone down hill. It has, that is just a fact. You dont see any longtime subscribers saying how great the HD quality is now.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

RAD said:


> Then I guess mine were broken since after a reboot I didn't have the 14 days worth of guide data available.
> 
> Plus, just because something was available on a prior version of a product doesn't mean that it needs/should be included in the next. Have you noticed that car makers, for example, drop items from prior model years that just aren't important anymore, such as key locks on the passenger door or cigarette lighers or ash trays? PC makers do the same thing, it's hard to find a PC or laptop that comes with a floppy drive anymore.


Whats a floppy drive??


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Paul Secic said:


> Whats a floppy drive??


In the older computers (like mine) there is a small slot that you insert a rectangle
shaped plastic card.You can then store programs or information on the card.This
was the way it was done before CD's.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Jhon69 said:


> In the older computers (like mine) there is a small slot that you insert a rectangle
> shaped plastic card.You can then store programs or information on the card.This
> was the way it was done before CD's.


He was making a back handed remark about my spelling error, floopy vs. floppy.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Paul Secic said:


> Whats a floppy drive??


A condition now treatable with Viagra.


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## cbeckner80 (Apr 19, 2006)

I guess I'm just too old and/or blind. I think the HD is great on 42" AKIA HDTV.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

cbeckner80 said:


> I guess I'm just too old and/or blind. I think the HD is great on 42" AKIA HDTV.


HD looks great on my two HD Pannys, too. Like you, I am personally happy with it, but I understand the theory behind the numbers and defer to those who have more experience than I. The HD in my home has always come from D*, and only in the past few months.

I do know that the Blu-Ray DVD I saw in a store provided the most breathtaking picture I have ever seen. Of course, that's real 1080p (I guess,) something that may never be broadcast.

Still, when the bandwidth is there, I hope D* will use some of it for increased quality, whether I can see the difference or not. (I think we both will, once we have something to compare.)


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