# Fox Regional Sports being dropped by YouTube TV



## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Always seems like Sinclair is the issue again!!
Hate to change providers.
So what exactly do we lose?

Email:

Providing our members with 85+ channels requires contracts that are periodically renegotiated with content owners. Earlier this year, we negotiated an extension with Sinclair to continue carrying FOX Regional Sports Networks through the regular seasons for baseball, basketball, and hockey. Unfortunately, now the seasons are over and that extension is expiring.
Starting Thursday, October 1, 2020, FOX Regional Sports Networks will no longer be available on YouTube TV, and you will no longer have access to any previous recordings from FOX Regional Sports Networks.
This was a difficult decision made after months of negotiations. We hope that we can bring FOX RSNs back in the future. Thank you for your membership as we work to make YouTube TV the best streaming experience.
Sincerely,
The YouTube TV team



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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

gio12 said:


> ... and you will no longer have access to any previous recordings from FOX Regional Sports Networks.


Cloud DVR anyone?


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

James Long said:


> Cloud DVR anyone?


Yep sucks. But DIRECTV or Att Now will cost me $183 to get a similar package. Double the price

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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

How much longer until Sinclair has a product that no one can afford to purchase?


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

gio12 said:


> Yep sucks. But DIRECTV or Att Now will cost me $183 to get a similar package. Double the price
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


What channels are important to you? I have solutions available if you are willing to use 2 TV streaming services 

*AT&T TV Now Max* ($80/mo) + *Sling TV Blue *($30/mo) + *Total TV Deal* ($20/mo) = $130/mo
The ultimate combo for the ultimate live TV streamer from your two favorite satellite TV providers!
HBO Max and Cinemax Included w/AT&T TV Now Max!
Epix Drive-In Included with Sling TV Blue!
Local channels with AT&T TV Now
Get the AirTV2, connect an antenna and integrate your locals into Sling TV
Cloud DVR
50 Hours / No expiry date for Sling TV Blue channels
500 Hours / 90 Day expiry for AT&T TV Now channels

Get A&E Networks, AMC Networks & Discovery with Sling TV
Get Disney with AT&T TV Now
Crown Media, Fox, FX Networks, NBCUniversal and ViacomCBS with both!
Get your Sinclair owned RSNs with AT&T TV Now
Get your national sports channels including MLB Network, NBA TV, NHL Network, NFL Network & NFL RedZone with Sling TV!
Get your college sports with AT&T TV Now and the elusive Pac-12 Network with Sling TV!
Behold all the soccer glory of beIN Sports on Sling TV!

*AT&T TV Now Max* ($80/mo) + *Philo *($20/mo) = $100/mo

Don't care for national pro sports just national, RSNs and college sports! 
Fill in the gaps of AT&T TV Now Max with Philo!

*Hulu Live TV *($55/mo) + *Sling TV Blue *($30/mo) + *Total TV Deal* ($20/mo) = $105/mo
HBO Max & Cinemax not included but Hulu is!
If you don't mind not being able to fast forward through commercials during your recordings and have a 50 hour cloud DVR on Hulu channels this is your cheapest option for all sports.

*Hulu Live TV *($55/mo) + *Philo *($20/mo) = $75/mo

If you just want the RSNs and to fill in Hulu's channel gaps then this is your low expensive option. 




Newshawk said:


> How much longer until Sinclair has a product that no one can afford to purchase?


Until AT&T's contract expires (that's the last one I remember being reached)


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I bet they planned this. Most leagues won’t start back up till probably January and maybe February. So why pay for the stations when nothings on right now. Heck they may not start back up till March.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

gio12 said:


> Yep sucks. But DIRECTV or Att Now will cost me $183 to get a similar package. Double the price
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Ummm.... Did you have all the possible add-ons with YouTube TV? The Premier package on AT&T TV Now is $183/mo (which is the non-promo rate on AT&T TV). The non-promo rate for Premier on DirecTV is $197/mo for 1 Genie HD-DVR (each additional TV is $7/mo/mini)

The most equivalent package on AT&T's video services to YouTube TV would be Xtra. (Granted the regular price is still double but not that high.) This is the current pricing and new customer offers available. 

AT&T TV Now Xtra
$124/mo + sales tax 
No RSN
Cancel Anytime
1 month free of HBO Max (new customers only)
Get Showtime today and get your first month on them (new customers only)
3 concurrent streams included
500 Cloud DVR / 90 Day Expiry

AT&T TV Xtra
24 month contract required
1 AT&T TV device included (can use other streaming devices)
Months 1-12 $74.99/mo
Months 13+ $124/mo
RSN Fee up to $8.49 applies
$100 Reward Card
HBO Max Included for 1 Year
3 Months of Cinemax, Starz, Showtime, Epix Included

3 concurrent streams included
500 Cloud DVR / 90 Day Expiry


DirecTV Xtra
24 month contract required
1 Genie HD-DVR Included
Each additional TV is $7/mo/mini
Months 1-12 $79.99/mo
Months 13+ $131/mo
RSN Fee up to $9.99 applies
$100 Reward Card
HBO Max Included for 1 Year
3 Months of Cinemax, Starz, Showtime, Epix Included

2020 NFL Sunday Ticket Max Included


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

inkahauts said:


> I bet they planned this. Most leagues won't start back up till probably January and maybe February. So why pay for the stations when nothings on right now. Heck they may not start back up till March.


Comcast waited until the very last minute to reach a deal for Marquee Sports Network. COVID-19 hit at just the right time for Comcast to continue delaying negotiations until it was time for the shortened MLB season.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Its hard to break down packages and say what important to me.

I had DIRECTV Premier before if I remember.

YouTube TV and Philo was how I started. Then YT added, Comedy, CMT, TV Land and Paramount, so I has good.
Only channel I miss was History.

Hulu Live would work but I lose CMT and CC. Guess could add Philo back. I have Peacock for Paramount (Yellowstone.)

I only care about Fox Regional during Football Season.

ATT&T some packages would work under $100 but not ACC Network.

Trying to stay under $100. Not worth it for me and nice to have Red Zone with YTTV.

Tired of Sinclair.

I hope and sure they will work some out again. So We will see


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I would not expect to see Sinclair on any of the disputed systems until they have something worth showing.
Extending the YouTube contract to the end of the seasons was probably a mistake on their part. RSNs without active sports are not RSNs.

"Something worth showing" could be the local Sinclair channels (for systems that carry them) or the next major sports season.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

James Long said:


> I would not expect to see Sinclair on any of the disputed systems until they have something worth showing.
> Extending the YouTube contract to the end of the seasons was probably a mistake on their part. RSNs without active sports are not RSNs.
> 
> "Something worth showing" could be the local Sinclair channels (for systems that carry them) or the next major sports season.


 Still have some CFB on those Fox RSNs


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## TV_Guy (Nov 16, 2007)

Hoping I get YES back on YTTV when Sinclair decides to price their RSNs within reason. I would imagine Sinclair is under financial pressure considering how many services have dropped their RSNs.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

gio12 said:


> Its hard to break down packages and say what important to me.
> 
> I had DIRECTV Premier before if I remember.
> 
> ...


Ah okay I see. Yeah to equal YTTV in channel count you don't need Premier on any AT&T service. Xtra is the most comparable package on their services if you want all the channels in a single service.

Sounds like AT&T TV Now Max would fit most of your needs. If you did want something like History or AMC you could always get Philo in addition to AT&T TV Now Max for them.

AT&T TV Now Max ($80/mo)
*Has ACC Network, Comedy Central, CMT, Paramount & TV Land.*
*Has* *Fox Sports RSNs *& Local Channels 
HBO Max and Cinemax Included
Includes linear HBO & Cinemax channels plus HBO on Demand & Cinemax On Demand from the AT&T TV app.
HBO Max may interest you because they have the exclusive streaming rights to some of the more recent Comedy Central shows like _South Park_ (new episodes added 24 hours after their debut on Comedy Central) and _Awkwafina is Nora From Queens_. 
Two of Comedy Central's scripted comedies (_South Side_ and _The Other Two_) are moving to HBO Max as Max Originals in 2021. Those two shows won't have their second seasons on Comedy Central. 
HBO Max will also be getting more of Comedy Central's back catalog on a non-exclusive basis in the future. 

Other College Sports Channels: Big Ten Network, CBS Sports Network, ESPN U, SEC Network
National Sports Channels: ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNews, Fox Sports 1, Fox Sports 2, Golf Channel, NBC Sports Network, Olympic Channel, Tennis Channel
Other ViacomCBS Channels: BET, MTV, Nickelodeon, Nick Jr., VH1
Disney (non-sports) Channels: Disney, Disney Jr., Disney XD, Freeform
Channels acquired from old Fox: FX, FXX, FXM, National Geographic, Nat Geo Wild

NBCUniversal Channels: Bravo, CNBC, CNBC World, E!, Oxygen, Syfy, Universal Kids, USA
WarnerMedia Channels: Boomerang, Cartoon Network/Adult Swim, CNN, HLN, TCM, TBS, TNT TruTV
Other Channels: Hallmark, Cheddar, AccuWeather, Revolt

AT&T TV Now Max does not include any channels from A+E Networks (owners of History), AMC Networks and Discovery so if you want those channels you would have to add Philo for $20/mo more. That would put you right at $100/mo before tax.

While this is pushing your budget to the maximum (if you add on Philo to fill the gaps) you get a better overall Cloud DVR included with AT&T TV Now. 

AT&T TV Now's Cloud DVR has 500 Hours of storage compared to Hulu + Live TV's base 50 Hours of storage
You can fast forward through commercials with AT&T TV Now's Cloud DVR. With Hulu + Live TV you need to upgrade to their Enhanced DVR add-on for this feature.
AT&T TV Now comes with 3 concurrent streams, Hulu + Live TV has 2 concurrent streams. To get unlimited streams in home on Hulu+Live TV you need to add their Unlimited Screens add-on.
You can get a bundle of Hulu's Enhanced DVR + Unlimited Screens for an additional $14.99/mo. If you just want say Enhanced DVR or Unlimited Screens only they are $9.99/mo/ea. The Enhanced DVR add-on increases your storage to 200 Hours (still 300 hours less than what AT&T TV Now is offering.)
If you get Hulu Live TV plus the Enhanced DVR + Unlimited Screens bundle add-on the cost is $69.98/mo (which is only $10.02 less than AT&T TV Now Max) if you add Philo to this it would be $89.98/mo. 
So if you can afford the extra $10.02/mo your best value option would be AT&T TV Now Max ($80/mo) + Philo ($20) which puts you right at $100/mo. While this is pushing your budget it would give you access to the most content for the money and the better Cloud DVR.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

techguy88 said:


> Ah okay I see. Yeah to equal YTTV in channel count you don't need Premier on any AT&T service. Xtra is the most comparable package on their services if you want all the channels in a single service.
> 
> Sounds like AT&T TV Now Max would fit most of your needs. If you did want something like History or AMC you could always get Philo in addition to AT&T TV Now Max for them.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Will look again.
Was soo happy to leave AT&T but...

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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

James Long said:


> I would not expect to see Sinclair on any of the disputed systems until they have something worth showing.
> Extending the YouTube contract to the end of the seasons was probably a mistake on their part. RSNs without active sports are not RSNs.
> 
> "Something worth showing" could be the local Sinclair channels (for systems that carry them) or the next major sports season.


With Dish FuboTV and YouTube TV that have access to Sinclair's locals but not the Sinclair RSNs I feel the next step Sinclair will take is to bundle the RSNs with the Locals. This is what Sinclair did to both Charter Spectrum & AT&T when their agreement for the local channels were ending.

AT&T already had a long term agreement for the Fox Sports RSNs in place under "Old Fox" but if AT&T didn't agree to Sinclair's demand of voiding that contract, bundling all their RSNs with the Local's agreement AT&T would have lost the more valuable locals.

I don't think Comcast had their Locals or RSNs come up for agreement they essentially delayed negotiations for Marquee until the Cubs actually had games.

So I think Sinclair is just biding their time until the contracts for their more valuable local channels come up for renewal on those services.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

techguy88 said:


> Ah okay I see. Yeah to equal YTTV in channel count you don't need Premier on any AT&T service. Xtra is the most comparable package on their services if you want all the channels in a single service.
> 
> Sounds like AT&T TV Now Max would fit most of your needs. If you did want something like History or AMC you could always get Philo in addition to AT&T TV Now Max for them.
> 
> ...


Unless I am blind, no ACC network on Max
















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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

gio12 said:


> Thanks. Will look again.
> Was soo happy to leave AT&T but...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Your welcome. I think there might be a lot of people that feel that way lol. However AT&T TV Now has become the king of RSNs there is no denying that. Dodger, Nuggets, Avalanche, Rapids & Mammoth fans have no choice in services right now. AT&T TV Now is the only "cord cutter" streaming service offering Spectrum SportsNet LA (Dodgers) and Altitude (for the rest). Altitude also has college games as well in their region.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

gio12 said:


> Unless I am blind, no ACC network on Max
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On that first image they are using the abbreviation that would show up on a DirecTV receiver instead of the full channel name for some reason "ACCHD" that means ACC Network HD.

The full channel list isn't completely updated for the Plus & Max packages but if you look on the home page you see this (yellow circle added by me in MS Paint):










I can also confirm AT&T TV Now Max does in fact have ACC Network because when I got a beta Osprey box off eBay earlier this year to test out (before the national launch of AT&T TV) I used AT&T TV Now's Max package to test it out and I had the ACC Network in addition to Fox Sports Ohio, Fox Sports Cincinnati and SportsTime Ohio (the first two in full HD mind you!)


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

Also I now see why you thought you needed Premier. ACC Network is available in *Max*, Choice, Xtra, Ultimate and Premier on AT&T TV Now. Their channel lineup is wrong when it says ACC Network (ACCHD) is Premier only. Another error is they have A Wealth of Entertainment (AWE) listed twice.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

@gio12 I was able to activate my old account for a free 7 day trial you have no worries Max does indeed have ACC Network here is a screenshot from the guide from my Chrome browser.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

gio12 said:


> Unless I am blind, no ACC network on Max
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dont know what page your looking at but shows up fine for me


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

compnurd said:


> dont know what page your looking at but shows up fine for me
> 
> View attachment 30935


If you click the "See All Channels +" link under the Premiums section an in frame page appears. For Plus & Max ACC Network is completely absent. It should appear alphabetically above AccuWeather with a check under the Max column but it does not.

When you click "Other Packages" then "See All Channels +" you just see "ACCNHD" but the check is only under Premier.

Which is incorrect because AT&T TV Now's "Other Packages" are meant to mirror the AT&T TV Featured Packages in their entirety. The only reason AT&T TV Now offers Optimo Mas - Premier is to provide a no contract and no RSN Fee option. If you go to the AT&T TV channel lineup it shows "ACCNHD" (ACC Network HD) in Choice - Premier which is correct for both AT&T TV and AT&T TV Now. (Here is a PDF of AT&T TV's packages which are referred to "Other Packages" on AT&T TV Now which is correct for both services.)

The only time you see ACC Network included with Max is on the homepage with all the channel logos. However it is there and included with Max.


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## espaeth (Oct 14, 2003)

It's ridiculous that ATT TV Now is still restricted for DVR functions on the live channels. You can only pause for around 2 minutes, you can't rewind, and you can't fast forward after pausing.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

espaeth said:


> It's ridiculous that ATT TV Now is still restricted for DVR functions on the live channels. You can only pause for around 2 minutes, you can't rewind, and you can't fast forward after pausing.


what? Forget that


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm not too bothered by the loss of the "FOX" RSNs... I actually wonder why they are still called "FOX" when they are no longer owned and operated by FOX... but that aside... I'm in NC, so ACC country. I really only care about college football and basketball and then I watch the NBA and NFL for pro sports. With the advent of the sports networks (I have ACC, SEC, and Big Ten on YouTube TV) that covers my college fix for everything not on ESPN or the OTA networks... NFL is covered by having OTA, ESPN, and NFL Network... NBA is mostly covered by ABC/ESPN/TNT... Maybe there would be a game or two on the RSN? I don't know... oh, and they have NBATV too... I can't imagine I'll be missing much by not having the RSN.

Prior to the launch of ACC Network, there were games that popped up on the RSN every week... but I think those days are gone. Everything that they couldn't sell to a bigger network, goes on ACC I think.

As for not dropping the price with the loss of RSNs... Normally I'd agree... we should get a price cut... but I can't imagine they were paying much for these RSNs... so would we even get $1 drop on the bill? I doubt it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stewart Vernon said:


> As for not dropping the price with the loss of RSNs... Normally I'd agree... we should get a price cut... but I can't imagine they were paying much for these RSNs... so would we even get $1 drop on the bill? I doubt it.


Based on other providers ... DIRECTV charges an ever increasing RSN fee. I can't say that it is specifically due to Sinclair RSNs, but having a $9.13 fee where Marquee and NBC Sports Chicago are the only RSNs in Choice leads me to believe RSNs are expensive. DISH introduced an up to $3 RSN fee this year (which they are not charging in areas without RSNs). DISH did not reduce prices when dropping Sinclair and other RSNs.

The providers like to complain about the high price of sports and they tell their customers that sports are the reason for high prices but has any provider lowered their price when dropping sports?


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I'm not too bothered by the loss of the "FOX" RSNs... I actually wonder why they are still called "FOX" when they are no longer owned and operated by FOX... but that aside... I'm in NC, so ACC country. I really only care about college football and basketball and then I watch the NBA and NFL for pro sports. With the advent of the sports networks (I have ACC, SEC, and Big Ten on YouTube TV) that covers my college fix for everything not on ESPN or the OTA networks... NFL is covered by having OTA, ESPN, and NFL Network... NBA is mostly covered by ABC/ESPN/TNT... Maybe there would be a game or two on the RSN? I don't know... oh, and they have NBATV too... I can't imagine I'll be missing much by not having the RSN.
> 
> Prior to the launch of ACC Network, there were games that popped up on the RSN every week... but I think those days are gone. Everything that they couldn't sell to a bigger network, goes on ACC I think.
> 
> As for not dropping the price with the loss of RSNs... Normally I'd agree... we should get a price cut... but I can't imagine they were paying much for these RSNs... so would we even get $1 drop on the bill? I doubt it.


yeah, ACC here too. I think with the ACC Network now, I will relay less on the FOX RSNs for me games []_[]


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## espaeth (Oct 14, 2003)

So basically there are 3 streaming options that remain if you still need the FOX (Sinclair) RSNs:

- Hulu Live
- ATT TV NOW
- ATT TV

Hulu Live has the stupid "home network" restrictions that prevent you from using any TV-attached device to stream outside of your registered home network. Not an issue now since I'm not traveling during the pandemic, but being able to pack a Roku stick to watch when traveling is a nice feature in general. Worse yet, regular Hulu lets you watch anywhere, but as soon as you enable Live TV on your account it prevents you from watching anything Hulu (Live or Catalog) on a TV-connected device anywhere off your home network. The final dagger for Hulu Live: DVR recordings don't have a "start from beginning" option, so if you want to record a game, be prepared to scrub your way back to the beginning and catch a ton of spoilers if the game is still in progress.

ATT TV NOW can only pause live TV for a couple minutes, and no FF/RW outside of DVR recordings. 

ATT TV allows trickplay on live streams, but only if you use their box. So if you want to go this route, now you need another stupid box and remote for every TV you want trickplay options on, plus you have a 24 month contract, plus you have to pay the RSN fee on top of the package fee that has them.

Time for sports leagues to figure out another way to package their coverage, because this is a dumpster fire.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

espaeth said:


> So basically there are 3 streaming options that remain if you still need the FOX (Sinclair) RSNs:
> 
> - Hulu Live
> - ATT TV NOW
> ...


I agree with you this is a big dumpster fire lol

However to clarify, if someone wanted AT&T TV Now and wanted an AT&T TV device a lot of people are selling beta Osprey boxes on eBay for $50-$80 used but with the new updated remote. This is cheaper than AT&T's price for new AT&T TV devices which are $120 per device for AT&T TV customers. If you have AT&T TV Now (Plus or Max) and use your account with Osprey/AT&T TV devices the user has full access to all features just like an AT&T TV customer.

I have tested the Osprey/AT&T TV device extensively with an AT&T TV Now account using the Max ($80/mo) package. I can RW live programming then FW up to the live point including sports. Essentially I can do everything that @lparsons21 can do who has an AT&T TV device direct from AT&T with AT&T TV Entertainment.

If you are using AT&T TV / AT&T TV Now on another device like Apple TV, Fire TV or Roku you can set the program to record then after 30-45 seconds go into your Cloud DVR and watch the program from there. That enables RW/FW during the program.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

espaeth said:


> So basically there are 3 streaming options that remain if you still need the FOX (Sinclair) RSNs:
> 
> - Hulu Live
> - ATT TV NOW
> ...


In other words DIRECTV still kicks streaming's butt for sports. And based on what your saying about live tv and trickplay and so forth, also streaming DVRs from those companies.


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## espaeth (Oct 14, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> In other words DIRECTV still kicks streaming's butt for sports. And based on what your saying about live tv and trickplay and so forth, also streaming DVRs from those companies.


I guess it all depends what you want out of a service.

If you need the Sinclair RSNs and functional trickplay, then yeah, maybe DIRECTV is the best option going.

For sports in general, it's a service that I have to use proprietary boxes, only at my house, only on the TVs I pay to hook up, and I have to settle for video quality that's worse that what's offered by streaming services including ATT's own ATT TV. Oh, wait, I guess DIRECTV does have that janky app that will let me stream on a mobile device at a resolution that looks like the world is struggling to make it through some kind of pixel famine. Maybe. If the app works.

YoutubeTV includes options like being able to show or hide scores for games in the guide, or block live channel thumbnails if teams you select are playing so that you don't see any spoilers. For most sports now, they offer a feature called "catch up to live with key plays" where they use sport-specific metadata to index key points in the video timeline, and they'll step through a series of highlights all the way up to being joined live to a game in progress.

A few streaming companies are doing interesting things to add useful features to the viewing experience, just not the ones who are currently willing to submit to Sinclair's ransom demands.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

inkahauts said:


> In other words DIRECTV still kicks streaming's butt for sports. And based on what your saying about live tv and trickplay and so forth, also streaming DVRs from those companies.


A Cloud DVR from any company is never a true substitute for true hardware DVR however that again is based on what an individual values. Also when the dollar amount begins to outweigh what one will spend it is easier to adapt to a Cloud DVR over a hardware DVR. If you are the one that values a hardware based DVR in all its glory then a traditional TV provider is the only way to get all the features in one.

Hulu + Live TV is great when your at home but just like @espaeth mentioned it is not great if you are out of the home. AT&T TV Now is better for in and out of home scenarios as it will allow you full access to your channel lineup as long as you are located within the same market as your billing address. The only limitation AT&T TV Now has is if you travel out of market you can't view locals/RSNs in another market but you can access everything else.

AT&T TV Now's 90 second buffer and trick-play limitations can be overcome by simply setting the Cloud DVR to record the event in question (for good measure w/sports I would also set it to record the program after the sport event ends.) After about 1 minute you can start the in-progress recording of your game which then gives you full trick-play options such as skipping back/forward 15 seconds or RW/FW. When you select the game to watch via the Cloud DVR it will automatically put you at the start. The entire game will be available in the buffer since it is recording it. Depending on the individual that can be either a minor or major issue.

However for someone wanting to save money I would never recommend a traditional pay-TV provider unless they want the NFL Sunday Ticket.

For the price of D*'s Xtra ($131/mo regular price for 1 TV & Genie HD-DVR) one could get AT&T TV Now Max ($80) & Sling TV Blue ($30) + Total TV Deal ($20) for $130/mo and watch their programming on 3 to 6 TVs (6 TVs is achieved if the channel is on both AT&T TV Now & Sling TV)

This would give you all the major cable networks (except for Animal Planet), locals (AT&T TV Now), RSNs (AT&T TV Now), College Sports (AT&T TV Now, Sling TV for Pac-12), the majority of national sports (Both) and all the pro sports + NFL RedZone (Sling TV Blue + Total TV Deal.) AT&T TV Now Max also gives you HBO Max & Cinemax which would be an additional $27.99/mo on D*.

Depending on what one needs you can mix and match the streamers to still be cheaper than D* and even cable companies.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> In other words DIRECTV still kicks streaming's butt for sports. And based on what your saying about live tv and trickplay and so forth, also streaming DVRs from those companies.


Over double the price and antiquated boxes and ability to lose recordings. Yep, all have negatives. Ohm plus that dumb dish with rain fafe, wires through my house, divers that fail....


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

Are you able to watch networks on the ATTTV box "out of market"? 
Can I take the box with me and receive locals from where I am?
Can I use a VPN and receive different locals?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

espaeth said:


> I guess it all depends what you want out of a service.
> 
> If you need the Sinclair RSNs and functional trickplay, then yeah, maybe DIRECTV is the best option going.
> 
> ...


Where has it ever been stated or proven ATT TV Now has less video quality then ATT TV?

we get you have a hard on for YTTV


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

I WANT MORE said:


> Are you able to watch networks on the ATTTV box "out of market"?
> Can I take the box with me and receive locals from where I am?
> Can I use a VPN and receive different locals?


Yes and Yes


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

gio12 said:


> Over double the price and antiquated boxes and ability to lose recordings. Yep, all have negatives. Ohm plus that dumb dish with rain fafe, wires through my house, divers that fail....


Doesn't change the fact that from a programming perspective it is better


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

compnurd said:


> Doesn't change the fact that from a programming perspective it is better


Agree at a much higher cost. YTTV will add channels back fast enough IMO. Had DIRECTV for 20 yrs and AT&T destroyed them.

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## espaeth (Oct 14, 2003)

compnurd said:


> Where has it ever been stated or proven ATT TV Now has less video quality then ATT TV?


They use exactly the same streams.

My statement was that ATT's streaming products offer superior video quality to their satellite product. (With the exception of "streaming" in the DIRECTV app for satellite subscribers, which tops out at something like 360p resolution.)


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

compnurd said:


> Doesn't change the fact that from a programming perspective it is better


That is a personal opinion from someone who likes sports a lot. Other than sports and the convenience of cable/sat, there is no real difference in programming available.

In these days of little original programming at all via cable/sat, it makes little sense to pay big bucks to get it IMO. I can watch incessant reruns for a lot less with streaming!


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

espaeth said:


> They use exactly the same streams.
> 
> My statement was that ATT's streaming products offer superior video quality to their satellite product. (With the exception of "streaming" in the DIRECTV app for satellite subscribers, which tops out at something like 360p resolution.)


I would disagree with that first statement entirely. I and a lot of others feel Directv is still a tad sharper then there streaming. And as someone who has had both I would confirm that And the directv app also has not streamed at 360p in quite a long time. PQ on the app is just as good as the ATT app


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## mjwagner (Oct 8, 2005)

compnurd said:


> I would disagree with that first statement entirely. I and a lot of others feel Directv is still a tad sharper then there streaming. And as someone who has had both I would confirm that And the directv app also has not streamed at 360p in quite a long time. PQ on the app is just as good as the ATT app


YTTV streaming quality is very good. It's been years since I ditched D so can't compare currently but YTTV has most (I haven't checked them all so can't say all) cable channels now in 1920x1080 60 fps. Many (again I haven't checked them all) of the broadcast channels are now also in 1920x1080 60 fps, I think only not depending on the feed that YTTV is getting. Bit rates vary but seem to be very good as well.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

mjwagner said:


> YTTV streaming quality is very good. It's been years since I ditched D so can't compare currently but YTTV has most (I haven't checked them all so can't say all) cable channels now in 1920x1080 60 fps. Many (again I haven't checked them all) of the broadcast channels are now also in 1920x1080 60 fps, I think only not depending on the feed that YTTV is getting. Bit rates vary but seem to be very good as well.


YTTV does have good quality. However ATT TV is still known for having higher bitrates I could care less the resolution they are broadcasting in. The bitrate is the meat of the picture


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## mjwagner (Oct 8, 2005)

compnurd said:


> YTTV does have good quality. However ATT TV is still known for having higher bitrates I could care less the resolution they are broadcasting in. The bitrate is the meat of the picture


Dunno, maybe ATT TV is better, too many negatives about the service for me, for me to want to try it, but I'm using large high end displays (LGOLED65B7A and a Optoma UHZ65 4k HDR laser projector) and I find the picture quality of YTTV excellent, IMO. I suppose that's all that's important...


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

mjwagner said:


> Dunno, maybe ATT TV is better, too many negatives about the service for me, for me to want to try it, but I'm using large high end displays (LGOLED65B7A and a Optoma UHZ65 4k HDR laser projector) and I find the picture quality of YTTV excellent, IMO. I suppose that's all that's important...


I've had YTTV and now have ATT TV, got to give a slight nod to ATT TV though it isn't a huge difference and certainly not enough to make it a deciding factor.


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## espaeth (Oct 14, 2003)

lparsons21 said:


> I've had YTTV and now have ATT TV, got to give a slight nod to ATT TV though it isn't a huge difference and certainly not enough to make it a deciding factor.


If your top priority is video quality, I'd absolutely rank ATT TV streaming over YoutubeTV. For the 1080i channels in particular, the processing that ATT TV does leaves no combing artifacts from deinterlacing into 1080p. The same can't be said for YoutubeTV.

ATT TV is basically DIRECTV over the Internet with better video quality and a lower functionality DVR. It's tricky to put specific numbers behind it because DIRECTV uses variable compression for their satellite feeds, but when I look at packet captures I gathered from Ethernet MRV off my old HR44 (Feb 2019 when I still had the service) and compare them to bitrates with ATT TV (Feb 2019, and also Aug 2020 when I checked again), the streaming product had a consistently higher bitrate.

What I personally find compelling about YoutubeTV is that it's a different spin on how to organize network content. Pick your shows, and it automatically builds a Netflix-like catalog of seasons and episodes of anything you want to watch. If you want a traditional TV experience, you'll hate that. If you're accustomed to catalog services like Prime Video, Netflix, or Hulu then it starts to fit into that approach better. They're also tapping into existing metadata to offer things no other TV service has done so far like indexing your recordings with key plays and highlights in near real time.

That said, I almost never launch YTTV. The only thing I'm watching on it now is F1 Racing on the weekend. I watched the NHL playoffs using the NHL app so I could watch the Canadian broadcasts and have video processing that is artifact and stutter free. I watched the Tour de France on NBC Sports Gold to have the entire race going commercial free while I was working. For network TV shows we watch them all commercial free on Hulu, CBS:AA, Disney+ (Nat Geo), HBO Max, or Peacock. I watch PBS programming in the PBS app. If I want to watch live local channels, I have the Channels app on the Apple TVs and a HD Homerun setup that gets all our local channels.

That's why the ATT box is a poor fit for me personally - it's a box tailored to a service I would use the least often. 90% of our watch time is in commercial free catalog content viewing.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

espaeth said:


> If your top priority is video quality, I'd absolutely rank ATT TV streaming over YoutubeTV. For the 1080i channels in particular, the processing that ATT TV does leaves no combing artifacts from deinterlacing into 1080p. The same can't be said for YoutubeTV.
> 
> ATT TV is basically DIRECTV over the Internet with better video quality and a lower functionality DVR. It's tricky to put specific numbers behind it because DIRECTV uses variable compression for their satellite feeds, but when I look at packet captures I gathered from Ethernet MRV off my old HR44 (Feb 2019 when I still had the service) and compare them to bitrates with ATT TV (Feb 2019, and also Aug 2020 when I checked again), the streaming product had a consistently higher bitrate.
> 
> ...


There is 3 things ATT TV needs IMO to be equal to its cousin. And I know 1 of these isn't coming anytime soon.

NFL Network
4K Live channels 
Series Recordings Manager for the DVR


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

compnurd said:


> There is 3 things ATT TV needs IMO to be equal to its cousin. And I know 1 of these isn't coming anytime soon.
> 
> NFL Network
> 4K Live channels
> Series Recordings Manager for the DVR


Yeah, NFL Network probably isn't gonna happen until the larger relationship between AT&T and the NFL regarding NFL Sunday Ticket gets settled.

But I did think we'd see 4K live channels by now on AT&T TV, as the previous CEO mentioned 4K content on a few different occasions, and of course the box supports it. (Or, more specifically, I figured we'd see certain HD channels auto-switch to 4K or 4K HDR for certain programs, such as live sports, and then auto-switch back to HD afterward.) Should be easy for AT&T to stream live 4K and 4K HDR. Heck, the much smaller Fubo TV does a lot of it.

As for a series recording manager, yeah, that's one of the things that's keeping me from moving my elderly parents onto AT&T TV. I'm afraid they'd be a little lost without that. Shouldn't be a difficult feature to add but who knows, maybe AT&T doesn't think it's necessary.


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## ThaPhenom (Aug 21, 2006)

Do any of the streaming providers provide an out of market RSN Sports Pack? Outside of that, do any providers have it other than DirecTV?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

ThaPhenom said:


> Do any of the streaming providers provide an out of market RSN Sports Pack? Outside of that, do any providers have it other than DirecTV?


No and No


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

People talking about bitrates... I have seen bitrates as high as 70Mbps on my YouTube TV feed with the Nerd-stats enabled. That surprised me. I didn't think anything approached that on streaming, certainly not for HD... I haven't heard people mention that even for 4K streaming. I'll add, that is just when I've been watching Live channels. The DVR stuff or On Demand stuff doesn't usually get that high for me whenever I check.


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## espaeth (Oct 14, 2003)

Stewart Vernon said:


> People talking about bitrates... I have seen bitrates as high as 70Mbps on my YouTube TV feed with the Nerd-stats enabled.


Stats for nerds doesn't show the active stream bitrate, unfortunately. You actually have to pull the video stream headers to get the defined peak bitrate, and you can use network captures or browser / emulator developer tools to observe the average bitrate. Stats for nerds shows the player's estimation for throughput based on download rates on each video segment that the client is fetching. This is useful information for support teams if you open a ticket, because it would tend to suggest the best quality the client should be able to achieve.

Streaming starts with presenting a manifest of available "streams" (streaming isn't really streaming. It's just downloading 2-6 second clips of video/audio and playing them back gapless), usually in M3U format. This will have a "menu" of playlists at different resolutions and with different audio qualities that have links to the actual video and audio files. Each stream option is tagged with a bandwidth rate that represents the minimum download rate the client needs to achieve to be able to play back that collection of files without interruption. The video player is constantly evaluating the performance of the video segment downloads as it fills the buffer, and will either pick a higher or lower bitrate option to keep filling the buffer if network conditions change.

Here's what that "menu" looked like for DTVN a few years ago: Paste2.org - Viewing Paste BtOh8Uk2

This is for Game of Thrones via Amazon Prime channels, where they had a stream available for bandwidth exceeding 15mbps that was better than even HBO Go/NOW's direct streams: Paste2.org - Viewing Paste f5cvYXtp


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

espaeth said:


> This is for Game of Thrones via Amazon Prime channels, where they had a stream available for bandwidth exceeding 15mbps that was better than even HBO Go/NOW's direct streams: Paste2.org - Viewing Paste f5cvYXtp


This is a bit tangential, but have you streamed anything via the HBO Max app? HBO has definitely upper their bitrates, at least for some stuff, versus what they used to do in the old Go/Now apps. (And that's not just my eyes talking, one of the top guys at HBO Max said as much in an interview I read back in the summer.)

Watching via my Apple TV 4K box (which does a good job upscaling high-quality HD), there have been several times while watching recent HBO Originals like Perry Mason and The Third Day where I thought it looked just as good as 4K from Netflix, Prime Video or Hulu. That said, I do want actual 4K -- and HDR! -- from HBO Max. It's supposedly coming...


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## espaeth (Oct 14, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> This is a bit tangential, but have you streamed anything via the HBO Max app? HBO has definitely upper their bitrates, at least for some stuff, versus what they used to do in the old Go/Now apps. (And that's not just my eyes talking, one of the top guys at HBO Max said as much in an interview I read back in the summer.)


I have, and I've noticed the same thing.

I just fired up XCode and it looks like bitrates are indeed up from the HBO Go/NOW days. I can't see the main manifest file for some reason (I'll do a packet capture later, I guess), but I am able to pull the m3u8s for each stream that gets picked up. Here's the top bitrate from Last Week Tonight as of 10/22/2020:


```
http://hls3.pro11.akm.cdn.hbomax.com/videos/PRO11/e5/gov2/hbo/promo/PROM997474/v1/video/23.98p/r0/vid10/prog_index.m3u8
#EXTM3U
#EXT-X-VERSION:3
## Created with Unified Streaming Platform(version=1.9.5)
#EXT-X-MEDIA-SEQUENCE:0
#EXT-X-PLAYLIST-TYPE:VOD
#EXT-X-INDEPENDENT-SEGMENTS
#EXT-X-TARGETDURATION:6
#EXTINF:6.006, no desc
v10_0.ts
#EXTINF:6.006, no desc
v10_1.ts
#EXTINF:6.006, no desc
v10_2.ts
#EXTINF:6.006, no desc
v10_3.ts
#EXTINF:6.006, no desc
v10_4.ts
#EXTINF:1.001, no desc
v10_5.ts
#EXT-X-ENDLIST
#USP-X-MEDIA:BANDWIDTH=10995000,AVERAGE-BANDWIDTH=8432000,TYPE=VIDEO,GROUP-ID="video_23.98_10",NAME="video",AUTOSELECT=YES,CODECS="avc1.640028",RESOLUTION=1920x1080,FRAME-RATE=23.976
```
So nearly 11mbps as a peak bitrate is indeed a pretty substantial upgrade under HBO Max.


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