# Turner channels removed from Dish



## mexican-bum

Had my buddy (who has dish) just text me he lost cartoon network, looked it up and looks like a carriage dispute, surprised it wasn't posted here already. I wish dish luck, with all the cord cutters now days it is hard to justify carriage rate increases.



> _Our contract with Turner has expired and they have removed *CNN, Cartoon Network, Boomerang, CNN en Español, Headline News, truTV*, and *Turner Classic Movies* from DISH's channel lineup._
> _Currently, Turner is making unreasonable financial demands, and they have refused to extend the overall agreement. We are working around the clock to reach a fair and reasonable agreement with Turner. We have had a productive relationship with them for many years and are confident we can reach an agreement to restore these channels soon._


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## Don M

I could care less about the other channels on the list, but Turner Classic Movies is a must have.


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## Stewart Vernon

*Turner Networks Removes Channels from DISH as Contract Deadline Passes*

ENGLEWOOD, Colo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- DISH Network (NASDAQ: DISH) announced that Monday night Turner Networks removed Boomerang, Cartoon Network, CNN, CNN en Español, HLN, truTV and Turner Classic Movies from the DISH programming lineup. The two companies have been unable to negotiate the terms of a renewed distribution agreement, and Turner refused to extend the overall agreement.

"In the past year, DISH has successfully renewed agreements with many large content providers," said Warren Schlichting, DISH senior vice president of Programming. "As a result, we are confident that we have offered a deal to Turner that reflects an appropriate value for our customers."

"DISH has had a productive relationship with Turner Networks for many years," said Schlichting. "We regret the service disruption to our customers, and remain committed to reaching an agreement that promptly returns this content to DISH's programming lineup."

To learn more about these negotiations, visit www.DISHStandsForYou.com .

*About DISH*
DISH Network Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH), through its subsidiaries, provides approximately 14.053 million pay-TV subscribers, as of June 30, 2014, with the highest quality programming and technology with the most choices at the best value. Subscribers enjoy a high definition line-up with more than 200 national HD channels, the most international channels, and award-winning HD and DVR technology. DISH Network Corporation is a Fortune 250 company. Visit www.dish.com .


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## Stewart Vernon

Two weird things...

1. Weird that we didn't hear anything about this until it happened. I found out when I got the press release email... and I had been watching Cartoon Network not long before they shut it off but I missed when that happened.

2. Weird that it isn't all the Turner channels. For instance, TBS and TNT apparently aren't in dispute at the moment. I'm surprised they all aren't part of the same deal.


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## mwdxer

With the loss of CNN and TCM, people are not going to be happy. Unless Dish gets a fast deal with Turner, people will be jumping ship left and right. Not a good move for Dish. CNN is a main station. Right now Direct has a good deal to jump ship for $20 a month for 24 months. I don't know what is in the package, but not a bad deal. With the addition with the streaming I get from the Roku, I do not know how long I will stay with the $96 I spend a month with Dish. I never thought I would ever say that, but with the cost of satellite and cable TV going up, cord cutting is a thought. And I own my equipment. Dish better get this fixed soon.....


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## mwdxer

On the Roku site, it was announced that HBO is going to be selling their streaming service without a subscription on cable/Dish in 2015. CBS is looking into the same thing. Maybe Turner needs to offer a streaming service directly to the subs too.


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## John W

mwdxer said:


> With the loss of CNN and TCM, people are not going to be happy. Unless Dish gets a fast deal with Turner, people will be jumping ship left and right. Not a good move for Dish. CNN is a main station. Right now Direct has a good deal to jump ship for $20 a month for 24 months. I don't know what is in the package, but not a bad deal. With the addition with the streaming I get from the Roku, I do not know how long I will stay with the $96 I spend a month with Dish. I never thought I would ever say that, but with the cost of satellite and cable TV going up, cord cutting is a thought. And I own my equipment. Dish better get this fixed soon.....


CNN's ratings would not place it as a "main station".


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## WestDC

Remove them and walk away - Lets see how long it takes for CNN & TCM to feel the loss of additional eyeballs and revenue.


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## mwdxer

It's a two way street. Dish needs Turner and Turner needs Dish. Neither one wants to do without the other. CNN doesn't have the greatest ratings, but when a big story hits, viewers flock to CNN for the news. Few people are news fans, but CNN has done well through the years. They run a middle ground between MSNBC and FOX. One thing though in today's World , CNN streams, so CNN is available. TCM isn't streaming as yet. The only ad free movie channel that runs the classics. I never watch AMC any longer, not since they became commercial years ago. But I guess if people want the classics, pick up Netflix. We do have more choice today. More than 10 years ago.


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## mwdxer

I am sure it is greed on Turner's case as it is will the services as everyone wants more money. It will be interesting to watch this play out. I cannot believe this dispute will go on very long. Boomarang and the Cartoon Network are also pretty popular.


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## bluegras

does turner also own tbs and tnt also why are those ones not off also if a deal gets worked out i wonder if we can get those ondemand channels added.people are going to be upset over this.

Allen


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## James Long

TNT and TBS are sports networks ... probably renewed separately in the past to keep them on for sports.

I don't see CNN/Turner being off "forever". Something will be worked out.


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## bluegras

that is why i am wandering about i hope this gets worked out also


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## damondlt

mexican-bum said:


> surprised it wasn't posted here already. .


I'm not!
But Stewart did post a thread right after you. And after all it was the wee hours of the morning.
But I guess my question is why was there no previous notice?
I can't recall Directv or even my local Cable not notifying it's customers to be prepared.

That's just bad business. 
So people get to wake up and find out ?
Yeah that shouldn't piss too many customers off.


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## MysteryMan

Just more content provider greed.


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## Grandude

MysteryMan said:


> Just more content provider greed.


Ditto


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## tsmacro

MysteryMan said:


> Just more content provider greed.


Unfortunately it just seems that the companies who own the channels always automatically assume that when it's time for a new contract that means it's time for more money for them. It's hard to negotiate a good deal when that's their mindset going into the negotiations.


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## epokopac

James Long said:


> TNT and TBS are sports networks ... probably renewed separately in the past to keep them on for sports.
> 
> I don't see CNN/Turner being off "forever". Something will be worked out.


I seem to remember something in our local paper about Turner looking to layoff about 700 people. Sounds like they are going broke and need money.


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## Paul Secic

Don M said:


> I could care less about the other channels on the list, but Turner Classic Movies is a must have.


Me also. TCM is the best!


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## SayWhat?

I lost TCM when I downgraded packages, so not missing that one.

Once CNN et al went tabloid, I dropped them off my channel guide.

The only one of those listed above that I watch at all is TBS, and then only the early morning reruns of MWC. Since I'v probably seen each one of then 20 times or more, I can do without.


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## BillJ

I'll miss TCM but will anyone notice CNN is gone?


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## tsmacro

BillJ said:


> I'll miss TCM but will anyone notice CNN is gone?


Unfortunately yes, so far all the calls I've gotten have been regarding CNN, no other mention of any of the other channels yet.


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## jamelar

Instead of MSNBC, they should put AlJazeera on for the temporary CNN replacement!

And I believe giving in to Turner Broadcasting just for a quick resolution will hurt all of us in the long run. There's plenty of other channels to watch in the mean time.

To switch providers becuse of this or other disputes is very short sided IMO. Whoever your provider is, some contract will run out eventually.


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## toobs

More reasons to cut the cord.


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## garn9173

Won't miss any of them. Only time i've watched TruTV is during the NCAA tournament.


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## toobs

The battle of content providers and service providers are so tiring. Cut out the service provider and sell the content directly to the customer.


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## Stewart Vernon

I don't get what "cutting the cord" has to do with these contract disputes. IF you're someone thinking about cancelling pay-TV then you shouldn't care about these disputes because they aren't part of your decision. When you cut the cord you will lose ALL the channels... so if you're a cord-cutter considering taking that leap, however this dispute shakes out is not something that should be a factor to you.

I still think it's weird that we didn't hear anything, not even a rumble until the channels went dark. There was no "you're going to lose channels" or "Dish is evil and wants to drop us" adverts from either side leading up to this, which would lead you to think negotiations were going well until the last minute.

I'll miss Cartoon Network, so I hope this resolves sooner rather than later.


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## SayWhat?

Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't get what "cutting the cord" has to do with these contract disputes.


For me, it's about the delivery system. I like being able to flip channel and have a program guide. If I had the bandwidth and could have a functional, selectable guide (something like Titan TV) that would allow me to flip web channels, I'd do it. I've played with Roku and a few others and I'm having trouble getting used to the interfaces.

Windows Media Center had a good version before they dumped the Internet TV version.

Once I find something like that, adapted to the web, I'll be more ready to bail. At that point, I'll be making the decisions about what programming I subscribe to, not a bunch of suits stinking up a conference roof with their Cuban stogies. These negotiations are not in OUR best interests despite their attempts to sell us otherwise.

With ISPs improving (slowly) and the providers finally beginning to offer their content without the middlemen, it may be time to wonder if the days of the likes of Dish, Direct and the cable companies are numbered.

If I could pay Dish a small fee for their delivery system and then choose my own programming ........ yeah, not going there. But that's what we're headed for on the web. Pay the ISP for the delivery system, then choose programming.

These contract disputes only serve to make some of us more determined to cut out the middle man, one way or another.


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## mwdxer

I remember when Dish had the dispute with Fisher that had KATU Portland and KOMO Seattle (now sold), they wanted more money as Fisher was really hurting and KATU and KOMO were off Dish for 6 months! Sometimes neither side will budge. But the services want more money. They feel everything else goes up, so why not? But the subscriber does not have unlimited funds to buy programming. Cable or Satellite packages with most everything in them were $25 or so a month, not $100 or more. Maybe we do not need dozens of channels no one watches. Add to that we pay a lot more for the Sports channels. If those were all in a separate package our bills would be a lot less. I would not mind paying for a couple Sports channels in the package, if there were a couple and the price for those were the same as any other channel. Is ESPN really worth $6 or more a month? Should be be forced to pay that just to get other channels that are non sports in our package? Maybe the future being streaming is a good idea as we can buy what we want, plus there will be lots of free channels too. Dish is forced to package the channels the way the programmer wants, not the way the consumer wants them, so we pay threw the nose just to get what we want. Shaw in Canada has packages you can buy that have 5-7 channels and the viewer can buy which ones they want. They do pay for basics, but then can add on what other channels they want to pay for. I don't blame Dish for this, but something needs to change. Maybe we need a 3rd party that can okay price increases from the programmers, like a Utillity commissioner when electric or gas rates go up.


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## AntAltMike

When I was last familiar with bulk, free-to-guest commercial pricing, the Turner Networks pricing always incorporated discounts for a system carrying more of them, just as ESPN used to charge less to systems that carried their less popular ESPNews and Classic Sports, so there must be some rate complications caused by this partial dropping.


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## KyL416

SayWhat? said:


> With ISPs improving (slowly) and the providers finally beginning to offer their content without the middlemen, it may be time to wonder if the days of the likes of Dish, Direct and the cable companies are numbered.


It's only "improving" where the ISPs see it profitable to upgrade to fiber or the cable companies see it profitable to run the last mile. There's a huge chunk of the country stuck with 3mbps or less speeds, with no plans for the telephone company to upgrade, and their only option for faster speed is satellite with a high latency and low caps.



mwdxer said:


> Maybe we do not need dozens of channels no one watches.


Be careful what you wish for, in that world the channels with the highest rated programming survive, while the channels that carry the critically acclaimed and cult favorite shows will be the first to go. Check the ratings, unless you enjoy sports, Monday Night Raw, Honey Boo Boo, MTV's reality shows, SpongeBob and Family Guy reruns on TBS and Adult Swim, you'll be in for a disappointment.


> Shaw in Canada has packages you can buy that have 5-7 channels and the viewer can buy which ones they want. They do pay for basics


The CRTC regulates everything up there, including channel formats and package placement. What they call the "basics" are Category A stations, a set of channels that are mandatory for every provider to give including some news, sports, kids and entertainment channels. It's not like here where the bare minimum package is usually locals, public access and channels willing to pay to be carried.


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## Blowgun

BillJ said:


> I'll miss TCM but will anyone notice CNN is gone?


The only thing I will miss on CNN is Mike Rowe's _Somebody's Gotta Do It_. Other than that, watching any of the 24-hour news channels is like a drill to the head. I will especially not miss the caffeine induced on-screen graphics.


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## toobs

The current delivery system is like eating at a buffet. More shows that we ever need. We need a vending machine where we can choose what we want to watch.


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## bnewt

This game that Dish continues to play is so tiring.......Yes, I watch the channels, except Cartoon, especially TCM
If Dish was really doing this to help the consumer, that would be one thing, but everyone knows that their bill will increase every year........My salary does not increase every year. So they are substituting channels for the missing ones.........big deal.........if you are already paying for them, you are now paying for nothing.........would you go the Wal*Mart and pay the price of steak for any empty container..........


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## toobs

I also think that Dish is a bully. As a service provider, they are not the leader. Look what happen in the past with AMC and Dish caved in. Dish has some odd channels to make up what they are missing. At some point, their subscriber will leave.


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## Orion9

bnewt said:


> If Dish was really doing this to help the consumer, that would be one thing, but everyone knows that their bill will increase every year........


Your statement seems to imply that you think Dish always "wins" these things and that "winning" means Dish always pays the same as before. Chances are that even when Dish is happy with the outcome, the fees are often up - just not as much as the content provider originally requested.


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## Rduce

The channels that were removed are not even in the top 25 cable networks watched so while a few folks watch them they are clearly NOT must see tv. As for a person leaving DISH or DIRECT because of a carriage dispute, that is pretty short sighted. These days EVERY pay television provider is having disputes with some network ownership. I recall my first carriage dispute with my local cable company 25 years ago and it was my local NBC affiliate, just before the Super Bowl noless. There are no winners here and since I pulled the plug on DISH three months ago and became an OTA only household, television is not a necessity, it is a luxury that you can survive without. I have learned once again what books are and subscribe to Netflix. I can tell you I am alive and well without an $86 pay television bill every month.


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## txfeinbergs

This is the one thing that is keeping me from switching from DirecTV to Dish (and I want to switch). I still remember the AMC channel debacle last year and would have been really pissed without The Walking Dead. Charlie likes to fight his battles.


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## KyL416

txfeinbergs said:


> This is the one thing that is keeping me from switching from DirecTV to Dish (and I want to switch). I still remember the AMC channel debacle last year and would have been really pissed without The Walking Dead. Charlie likes to fight his battles.


EVERY provider has disputes, it's just gets more publicity when it happens to DirecTV and Dish since they're national providers, compared to a smaller regional provider like Suddenlink who's in the middle of a dispute with Viacom that's barely getting any coverage outside of small newsbites on business channels and sites that cover the media.


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## mwdxer

The cord cutter idea is okay, if you only want certain programming, but so far most cable/satellite channels are not available online. Several I watch are not. As long as the majority of the channels do not stream, the cord cutting idea for me is not viable. Now if all you want is OTA and a few news and movies services, the cord cuttimng idea is fine. The Roku is getting more and more channels, but unfortunately most are channels that are not on cable or satellite. NBC has a on demand on news items channel as well as CBS, but the networks does not stream and there is no real MSNBC available. KTLA does not stream their channel, but their news is avaiable on the computer, but not on the Roku. CNN is not on the Roku as yet, but for International news channels there are plenty. But cutting the cord is not an option for me as yet. Dish is supposed to enter into an agreement to stream some channels in 2015, but who knows what will be included? Move up another 10 years, maybe even 5 years, streaming and cutting the cord may be more viable. As much as I am unhappy over what has happened, I will stick with Dish. They have been good to me. Anyway, what other option do we have? Cable or Direct? Their rates go up, add to that they do have disputes over cost too. I like the Blockbuster package and the Super Stations. I cannot get those anywhere else. Even with the issues, Dish is still the best for me here. But I hope they get the issue solved as this is not good for either company, but I think may have more of an affect on Dish. If someone leaves, they may not return. CNN and TCM are pretty popular and few want to do without those channels. I feel Dish should have let us know earlier that this was a possibility, rather than just finding it out when we did. I am sure many woke up this morning, tuning on what they thought was CNN (#200) and finding MSNBC. It was probably quite a shock. I like MSNBC, but there is a difference. .


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## James Long

Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't get what "cutting the cord" has to do with these contract disputes.


I agree. If you want the content that CNN/Turner provides you are going to have to pay someone for it. That isn't pulling the plug - that is moving it to another socket.

If the channels go away and one doesn't miss the content then perhaps that could convince someone to take a closer look at what they actually watch - and where else they could get that content. And then find another socket.


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## shew

similar situation with me...I have uverse....and 5 years ago when uverse dropped the hallmark channels ....the old lady and other neighbors ranted and raved about it...now they don't miss it


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## nmetro

Another battle of 1% corporate greed that is putting everyone else, in the middle.

And cable providers wonder why people continue to drop the cord.

This dispute will end, eventually, like the others. But, will leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

As for the "substitute" channels, DISH could have at least provided the HD feeds. FXM for TCM; MGM HD would have been better. Discovery Family for Cartoon Network? Did not stick around to see what CNN and HN is showing. Finally, not sure why, but I still get TBS and TNT; and both in HD.

If this is a selective outage; it hits children and the elderly the most.

Oh yeah, when it is over, we will get another empty, insincere, "I'm sorry". The most overused phrase in corporate and politician lexicon.


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## tampa8

toobs said:


> I also think that Dish is a bully. As a service provider, they are not the leader. Look what happen in the past with AMC and Dish caved in. Dish has some odd channels to make up what they are missing. At some point, their subscriber will leave.


Where do you get your information from? Let me correct that - where do you get your wrong information from....
Dish paid 700 Million instead of 2.5 Billion just as starters. DISH also won having AMC available on Dish Anywhere, something AMC was not in favor of.


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## Willh

nmetro said:


> Another battle of 1% corporate greed that is putting everyone else, in the middle.
> 
> And cable providers wonder why people continue to drop the cord.
> 
> This dispute will end, eventually, like the others. But, will leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
> 
> As for the "substitute" channels, DISH could have at least provided the HD feeds. FXM for TCM; MGM HD would have been better. Discovery Family for Cartoon Network? Did not stick around to see what CNN and HN is showing. Finally, not sure why, but I still get TBS and TNT; and both in HD.
> 
> If this is a selective outage; it hits children and the elderly the most.
> 
> Oh yeah, when it is over, we will get another empty, insincere, "I'm sorry". The most overused phrase in corporate and politician lexicon.


thanks to this dispute, i am back on this site

anyway to explain what's on 200 and 202 as a "place holder" for CNN and HLN is MSNBC.

channels affected and replacement channels as place holders:
TCM- Ch 132 both HD and SD: FXM is filling the spot for now, FXM is not in HD on Dish and is only on channel 384 on the packages that it is on.

Boomerang- Ch. 175 & Cartoon Network/Adult Swim- East Coast Feed ch. 176 both HD and SD, West Coast Feed ch. 177 only SD: channel in place of 175 and 176 is Discovery Family (formerly The Hub), normally on Ch. 179 both HD and SD, while ch. 177 is just a channel with a screen with 6 channels which is Nickelodeon East, Disney Channel East, Nick Jr, Disney Jr, Nicktoons, and Baby 1st Tv, in which only Nickelodeon's channel.

CNN- ch. 200 Both HD and SD & HLN- Ch. 202 both SD and HD: both are now airing MSNBC, normally seen on ch. 209 in both SD and HD.

and finally, TruTV- ch. 242: Esquire Network has replaced TruTV, Esquire Network is normally on ch. 191 in both HD and SD.

and their's no HD feed on channels 132, 175, 176, 177, 200, 202 and 242. i don't know what's channel is CNN en Espanol is on and what's airing in place, as that's in the Spanish language packages only.

i wonder if TBS and TNT will have their contract expire in the next few weeks where they could be at risk of removal.


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## BobCulp

If Turner is broke, can we see CBS buying CNN
Nickelodeon could try to get cartoon network boomerang
Maybe DISH can put TCM with Sony MGM FXM in 380's.
Then TBS and TNT should try to get Tru TV in their group (If TRU still plans to air march madness 2015).


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## mwdxer

Wow! I just went to the Dish Facebook page. The number of people complaining about this..The list is endless. Many are threatening to cancel. I hope for everyone's sake, this issue gets resolved fast. I remember reading the complaints in the past over some channels, but nothing like this! These channels covers a large variety of programming, from the news fans, classic movie fans, and even the kids that watch cartoons. I feel sorry for all of the Dish reps that have to answer these postings by very irate customers. One of the biggest complaints noted was that Dish did not warn people that the drop of the channels was coming. No advanced warning. They just stut them off in the middle of the night. That has really ticked off people big time. Before this is over, Dish will be losing a lot of customers I am afraid. With this dispute there in no win win situation, even if they come to the table and resolve this soon. Add to that, on a pop up ad, Direct is offering a package for $20 a month for 24 months!


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## nmetro

AMC, IFC and Sundance went from commercial free movie channels to just another set of general cable channels. TCM deserves something better.

Yes, TCM's model does not make a great money, but then again, Turner owns the rights to most of the movies TCM shows. Pretty much all Warner, MGM, RKO, Paramount movies made before 1951 (pre wide screen, in other words). They also have an agreement with FOX, for older movies prior to 1951.They also have some rights to MGM and Warner movies made in the wide screen era. So, out of all the Turner channels, is is the least costly to run. Bomerang, which mostly consist of MGM, Hanna-Barbera and Warner cartoons, is probably the next least costliest to run. CNN/HN are the most expensive; because of having to pay salaries to reporters, live newwcasts, multiple news bureaus, etc. Also, CNN has been losing viewers, money and significance for years. If Turner is in trouble, getting rid of CNN/HN would be their best move.



BobCulp said:


> If Turner is broke, can we see CBS buying CNN
> Nickelodeon could try to get cartoon network boomerang
> Maybe AMC can get TCM.
> Then TBS and TNT should try to get Tru TV in their group (If TRU still plans to air march madness 2015).


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## Gloria_Chavez

shew said:


> similar situation with me...I have uverse....and 5 years ago when uverse dropped the hallmark channels ....the old lady and other neighbors ranted and raved about it...now they don't miss it


Precisely. And no one will miss ESPN when it gets dropped.

Well, the sports fanatics will. But that's just 20% of the subscriber base. And they will deal.


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## nmetro

Not surprising, out of the many channels out there, the Turner channels cover a larger spectrum of viewers. Movies, comedy, sports, news, cartoons. Many of these channels go back to the early days of cable TV. It all started with WTCG, channel 17, in Atlanta, when it was a Super Station, about 40 years ago. CNN and Cartoon Network go back to teh early 1980s. TCM, is the new kid on the block, as it signed on in the early 1990s, eventually replacing AMC for classic movies. These channels remain popular, because they never reverted to 24/7 reality programming. Also, innovation, like CNN, and Adult Swim, certainly helps.

By the way, TNT took over "Babylon 5" making it one of the first, non premium, cable channels to offer their own original programming, in the mid 1990s.

So, one hopes this dispute is settled quickly.

Finally, as we have seen, jumping from one provider to another does not accomplish much, because a dispute at one provider will eventually make it to another provider. DirecTV had theirs a couple years ago when all the Viacom channels were dropped. And DirecTV will be facing Turner when their contract is up. We, as subscribers, have toe xpect interruptions in programming as a fact of life, unfortunately.

But, what makes this really bad, is that we subscribers never see credits for when we lose channels, but see fee increases consistently. Issues that will never be solved by ala carte delivery, streaming or cutting the cord. Very few companies control all the content. This consolidation, will continue, until there are few providers of both content and delivery services.



mwdxer said:


> Wow! I just went to the Dish Facebook page. The number of people complaining about this..The list is endless. Many are threatening to cancel. I hope for everyone's sake, this issue gets resolved fast. I remember reading the complaints in the past over some channels, but nothing like this! These channels covers a large variety of programming, from the news fans, classic movie fans, and even the kids that watch cartoons. I feel sorry for all of the Dish reps that have to answer these postings by very irate customers. One of the biggest complaints noted was that Dish did not warn people that the drop of the channels was coming. No advanced warning. They just stut them off in the middle of the night. That has really ticked off people big time. Before this is over, Dish will be losing a lot of customers I am afraid. With this dispute there in no win win situation, even if they come to the table and resolve this soon. Add to that, on a pop up ad, Direct is offering a package for $20 a month for 24 months!


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## KyL416

Gloria_Chavez said:


> Precisely. And no one will miss ESPN when it gets dropped.
> 
> Well, the sports fanatics will. But that's just 20% of the subscriber base. And they will deal.


Are you seriously comparing not having Hallmark to not having ESPN? It's not like ESPN has some of the highest rated events on cable or anything... Losing all those commercial sports bar accounts who are paying way more per month than residential subscribers won't hurt at all either...

Not to mention Dish signed a LONG TERM deal with them, after DirecTV signs their renewal at the end of the year ESPN is pretty much set with all providers until 2021 when Comcast's contract is up for renewal.


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## Stewart Vernon

toobs said:


> The current delivery system is like eating at a buffet. More shows that we ever need. We need a vending machine where we can choose what we want to watch.


Your example is a better explanation of the opposite point of view than I suspect you meant it to be.

The buffet is one price for all you can eat and you can sample from everything... The vending machine has a limited selection and each individual item is priced much higher than it would be elsewhere. For the price of a handful of items from the vending machine you could have eaten at the buffet and had all the same stuff + the option to watch a lot more if you so desired.



tampa8 said:


> Where do you get your information from? Let me correct that - where do you get your wrong information from....
> Dish paid 700 Million instead of 2.5 Billion just as starters. DISH also won having AMC available on Dish Anywhere, something AMC was not in favor of.


Exactly. My recollection of the settlement on the AMC dispute was that no matter how we sliced it, Dish seemed to have come out WAY ahead... they saved money over the time of the court battles and in exchange for the settlement they won things, tangible things... and they got the carriage of the channels back before anything major was missed since the outage was over the summer rerun season.

As for Turner... their best channels (TNT and TBS) are not part of this... I miss Cartoon Network, though... and some surely miss CNN... but this will be settled sooner rather than later.


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## BobCulp

Saw this on Turner classic movies Facebook page.Unbelievable , Turner now blames Dish for pulling channels.


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## kucharsk

I wonder how confiscatory Turner's demands were…


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## BobCulp

I just heard that contracts with Dish and TBS, TNT have not yet expired. That explains why they are still on the air. If the Turner dispute becomes a long ordeal , chances are for TBS and TNT to be pulled. Now the big question is when does the TBS TNT contract end with Dish?


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## comizzou573

I am starting to find Dish pathetic, with a $2 dollar increase on monthly bill now going from 154 to 156 dollars a month. Dish always say they fight these dispute to pass on the saving to customer. I don't see any saving for us customers, if dish just keeps on raising its prices. Well with what is going on I bet dish will lose a ton customer, especially with the amount of people who watches CNN, trvtv, and HLN. After all american direct cease operations, dish shows it doesn't care about its distant network customers either. I am definitely thinking about switching over to directv.

Its amazing, I am guessing their is a ton of angry customers complaint to Dish, I been waiting for 2 hours now to be connected to an agent.


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## kucharsk

Pathetic? I commend them for trying to keep fees down rather than raise them as they'd need to if they gave into programmers' demands.

Everyone complains satellite TV/cable is too expensive, yet have issues when the companies try to keep costs down.

I wonder how angry these people would be if they kept Turner on but raised programming fees $5 - $10/month.


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## comizzou573

You sound like you work for Dish kucharsk, or did you invest 10k in dish stocks?

Maybe its an opportunity for charlie to get his news channels, charlie news network. Who needs cnn when we can watch how rich is dirtbag is, we can watch charlie news 24/7. If dish claims they won this dispute lower the damn monthly price down then.


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## James Long

We will never know the exact dollar amount that DISH saves their customers by fighting ... which means those predisposed to blaming DISH will always have that argument to pull out of he bag.

We do know (or at least we can if we look) that DISH has a low profit margin ... they are not making 20% per subscriber like other companies. They have also been able to keep the average revenue per subscriber down. Of course, those predisposed to not liking DISH will see low profits and low revenue as negatives - but as a DISH subscriber I completely understand where profit and revenue come from - the pockets of their subscribers.

DISH is not a non-profit or a not-for-profit ... so they do need to make some money and return some of the investment the stockholders have made in the company. But they don't seem to be going wild with higher profits and prices.

BTW: Personal attacks on billionaires are pointless. They have overcome reacting to schoolyard bully tactics and have become successful businessmen and women.


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## comizzou573

with these prices going up, we need to have freedom to what we want to watch, for instant we need to able to sub to whatever local stations we want, our hometown and plus one 1 addition out of market station from anywhere in the United States.


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## mwdxer

For this dispute to end quickly, one side will have to cave Icould guess. This could go on for sometime but everyone loses, Turner does, Dish does, and the subscriber does. I would not want to switch to Direct as first I own my Dish equipment, second I would lose the Super Stations, and Third, I would lose the Blockbuster package. Many of those channels are not on Direct's line up. I can stream CNN, if I want or watch a zillion news channels on the Roku. I do not have access to TCM, but I get a lot of old movies streaming on the Roku or I can get them on Netflix. That leaves Bomarang or Cartoon Network. I can wait on those as I have seen the old cartoons many times through the years. The other channels in the pack I never watch anyway.


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## James Long

comizzou573 said:


> with these prices going up, we need to have freedom to what we want to watch, for instant we need to able to sub to whatever local stations we want, our hometown and plus one 1 addition out of market station from anywhere in the United States.


Neither DISH nor Turner have the ability to make that wish come true ... write your congressman/woman. They are the ones writing the laws that control local channel delivery. And discuss your desire for expanded local channel coverage in an appropriate thread. This thread is about the dispute between DISH and CNN/Turner.


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## bnewt

James Long said:


> We will never know the exact dollar amount that DISH saves their customers by fighting ... which means those predisposed to blaming DISH will always have that argument to pull out of he bag.
> 
> We do know (or at least we can if we look) that DISH has a low profit margin ... they are not making 20% per subscriber like other companies. They have also been able to keep the average revenue per subscriber down. Of course, those predisposed to not liking DISH will see low profits and low revenue as negatives - but as a DISH subscriber I completely understand where profit and revenue come from - the pockets of their subscribers.
> 
> DISH is not a non-profit or a not-for-profit ... so they do need to make some money and return some of the investment the stockholders have made in the company. But they don't seem to be going wild with higher profits and prices.
> 
> BTW: Personal attacks on billionaires are pointless. They have overcome reacting to schoolyard bully tactics and have become successful businessmen and women.


I understand that any company must maintain profitability. My problem is that Dish seems to have more of these "disputes" than any other provider, all under the umbrella of keeping prices low...........IF they are so concerned about keeping prices low, how can they justify all of these "fees" they charge us every month


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## OinkinOregon

Instead of ranting and raving about this, go ahead and go to DirecTV and in a year you will be complaining again. But you will have your channels for that time, of course you may have to give up some of the channels you like now and will have to give up the superior technology that Dish always has over DirecTV. I am amazed at the vitriol that comes out every time there is a channel dispute.

To quote the great philosopher William Shatner - "Get a life!"


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## Orion9

bnewt said:


> I understand that any company must maintain profitability. My problem is that Dish seems to have more of these "disputes" than any other provider, all under the umbrella of keeping prices low...........IF they are so concerned about keeping prices low, how can they justify all of these "fees" they charge us every month


What fees are they charging you? We pay $54.99 for Dish plus $7.00 for DVR service. The only other thing on the bill is "HD for life" for which the fee is $0.00.

Someone else said their $154 bill went up $2. (I assume that's a TV/Internet/Phone bundle?) That's a bit below the rate of inflation so maybe they are effective at keeping prices down.


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## tampa8

bnewt said:


> That's an easy answer. In any business looking at one aspect will never give you the whole picture. For the cost aspect the question isn't fees, or package prices. It's the bottom line - how much does it cost. So what if DISH has fees, (So does Direct TV just as much) their total cost for most subscribers is less than others. Another way of putting it is each carrier has a business model Do you really think if DISH dropped some fees you wouldn't pay more for package prices or something else? You assume there is fat to be cut, but legal documents show there isn't much, In addition DISH more than most other carriers puts the money back into advancements, thus you get the Hopper, and the features introduced with it. That doesn't happen magically or overnight. Then there's the little thing called launching new satellites.
> 
> In the end it takes looking at the whole picture before judging one aspect. If you don't have to have the latest technology (Hopper) DISH is down right cheap for the equipment you get. The 722/612 and even 211 are to this day better than what many Cable companies give you.


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## Paul Secic

KyL416 said:


> It's only "improving" where the ISPs see it profitable to upgrade to fiber or the cable companies see it profitable to run the last mile. There's a huge chunk of the country stuck with 3mbps or less speeds, with no plans for the telephone company to upgrade, and their only option for faster speed is satellite with a high latency and low caps.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for, in that world the channels with the highest rated programming survive, while the channels that carry the critically acclaimed and cult favorite shows will be the first to go. Check the ratings, unless you enjoy sports, Monday Night Raw, Honey Boo Boo, MTV's reality shows, SpongeBob and Family Guy reruns on TBS and Adult Swim, you'll be in for a disappointment.
> The CRTC regulates everything up there, including channel formats and package placement. What they call the "basics" are Category A stations, a set of channels that are mandatory for every provider to give including some news, sports, kids and entertainment channels. It's not like here where the bare minimum package is usually locals, public access and channels willing to pay to be carried.


Honey Boo Boo?????


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## toobs

I was wondering if anyone contact Dish to see if they are giving any discounts for the lack of channels. My parents has Dish and they are wondering if Dish is doing anything for their customers from jumping ship.


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## mwdxer

I was thinking the same thing. Dish should offer sub's a discount, especially if this goes on for a while. A day or two probably makes little difference, but if this issue goes on for a week or more, we should get something.


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## tsmacro

shew said:


> similar situation with me...I have uverse....and 5 years ago when uverse dropped the hallmark channels ....the old lady and other neighbors ranted and raved about it...now they don't miss it


I can remember a few years back when something like this happened I'd get excited about it, but then I realized, wait a minute I've got hundreds of other channels to choose from plus way more on my DVR than I have time to watch already anyway. Guess what, a channel removes itself from my lineup because they want more money, oh well, don't care, I've got plenty of other options. Pretty much behooves the channels to keep themselves available so there's a chance they might get my eyeballs pointed in their direction sometimes. There's no channel that's irreplaceable, there's such a glut of options out there that I don't get why they'd risk letting customers forget about them. Wait they want me to switch providers, just to follow their sorry @$$? Yeah right, for what? Just to make sure they get more of my money in their pocket? Tell you what, they want me to watch their channel they better be making it as conveinant as possible for me to watch them, not make me work to try follow them, it's just truly not worth it.


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## Orion9

Yeah, someone mentioned the Fisher dispute going on for 6 months. I would have guessed it was more like 3 or 4 weeks, but googling confirms that it was actually 6 months. I guess the passage of time makes problems seem shorter/smaller. At the time (2008) we had some DVR timers set for them and watched them regularly. We removed those timers and created new ones. To this day we don't record/watch the local Fisher channel was much as we did before the dispute. Perhaps they got enough out of Dish to make up for the viewers and advertising revenue that they lost.

We now have 5 EHDs full of stuff. If a big dispute comes along that affects us (this one seems really minor) then we'll finally be able to clear out some space on those disks!


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## James Long

bnewt said:


> I understand that any company must maintain profitability. My problem is that Dish seems to have more of these "disputes" than any other provider, all under the umbrella of keeping prices low...........IF they are so concerned about keeping prices low, how can they justify all of these "fees" they charge us every month


Even with the fees DISH is not making much profit. I was not comparing advertised package prices before fees to other providers ... I was comparing the average revenue per subscriber ... which includes fees ... and their overall profit, which includes all of the ways they collect money.

They could cut fees ... but they would have to raise prices elsewhere to cover the loss. At least fees are (generally) usage based. One pays a fee for access to a valuable service. And one can reduce their fees by not subscribing to the extra services.

As far as "DISH has more disputes than anyone else" ... I have heard that stated so many times that people assume it is true whether or not it is true or not. Every provider has disputes ... every provider has had channels go dark because of disputes. Perhaps DISH's disputes are easier to remember ... or the reputation is driving a false perception.

DISH has managed to negotiate without losing channels ... with the big example being ABC/ESPN earlier this year. The channels continued with no hint of the end of contact passing - until the renewal was signed and new channels were added. Not every negotiation ends in a channel losing dispute. Yet the reputation lives on.


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## Dude111

Don M said:


> I could care less about the other channels on the list, but Turner Classic Movies is a must have.


I feel bad for your guys Don... The only one worth ANYTHING is TCM .... The others wanting MORE $$$$ FOR THE SAME CRAP is not good!! (Not surprising though)

If they made the quality BETTER it would be one thing but the sad truth is QUALITY KEEPS GETTING WORSE!! (And the prices keep going up for that worseness)

I wish you all the best luck getting @ least TCM back


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## Investered

As a MasTec-ian road warrior, I rely on whatever news provider the motel has to offer. I try to get caught up on world events using CNN, however all I see now is "DISH HD" on the screen. A news worthy event in itself. My first thought was a collusive suppression of the leftist just in time for the mid-terms. LOL. If the business world is trying to focus on customer satisfaction, it should first consider the effects of its own greed on the customers it is trying to satisfy. Just a thought.


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## KG4KBU

Al Jazeera america should be a good channel to watch while CNN is off dish also dish should add i24news english


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## mwdxer

There is always another answer. If someone wanted to I guess they could subscribe to both Dish and Direct or Dish and cable. That way, they probably would never miss anything. If either had a dispute, they could watch the missing channels on the other. I wonder if anyone has both Dish and Direct or Dish and Cable? If a person has money, affording it would be no biggie. I have Dish and Charter cable for the internet, but not their TV as I like Dish better, but it would be an easy fix if I wanted to spend an extra $30-$40 a month. There may be a cheap package that has CNN. But with the Roku and other news channels on Dish, plus my big dish, I get plenty of TV anyway.


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## mwdxer

i24 is great on the Roku.


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## Don M

Dude111 said:


> I feel bad for your guys Don... The only one worth ANYTHING is TCM .... The others wanting MORE $$$$ FOR THE SAME CRAP is not good!! (Not surprising though)
> 
> If they made the quality BETTER it would be one thing but the sad truth is QUALITY KEEPS GETTING WORSE!! (And the prices keep going up for that worseness)
> 
> I wish you all the best luck getting @ least TCM back


I have my fingers crossed, but with each passing day the outcome looks bleaker and bleaker. Some suggest getting my movies from other sources, but TCM shows movies that no other service offers. FOX Movie Channel offers the same type movies, but when they went to commercials I stopped watching, just as I did with AMC.


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## mwdxer

I would not look at it from a bleak point of view. I don't feel this dispute will go on very long, not the way people are leaving Dish left and right according to the Facebook page. I thought the complaints were bad last night. They get worse by the hour. The Dish people just are not replying to the customers questions, like why did Dish not give an earlier notice? and some people have called Dish (those poor CSR's) and demanded a discount on their bill. Dish said they could not do that, so they went to cable or Direct. These are the ones that have posted. How many have that didn't post? I am sure if this goes on very long, Dish will lose more than they gain. I am sure the phones at Direct and cable companies have been busy. especially with Direct offering a package for only $20 a month for the next 24 months. I'm not jumpping ship as even with the loss, I still have the majority of what I want, plus most of the rest I can find elsewhere. 
In the case of Fisher a few years back, I had OTA reception in analog (translator) and that worked out fine until is was resolved.


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## James Long

There are less people jumping ship than threatening. It is real easy to post nasty comments on Facebook and the rest of the Internet.


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## AntAltMike

I suspect that the "demand" for CNN is a lot like the demand for the Weather Channel. If you ask the general public to write down a list of cable channels they know about, they both will be on their lists. Of course, so will The Playboy Channel, even though none have ever seen it and I don't know if it even exists anymore.

Back when the Weather Channel left DirecTV I was responsible for the service of half a dozen hotel TV systems, and so I forewarned management that the Weather Channel would at least temporarily be replaced with Weather Plus or whatever and that they should have some response ready for their employees to provide, but they claim that not one guest called to complain at any property.

CNN will be a little more important to the 1% or fewer who regularly watch it, because their viewers probably do recognize the regular on-air personalities. All the hotels I service have CNN, Headline, Fox News and MSNBC on consecutive channels, so their guests would not have to surf much to find news, even if it isn't news they prefer.

Even though a lot of people like Turner Classic Movies, the nature of its demand is weak because its shows are old and not regularly scheduled. It has the appeal of a fortune cookie, or of the prize in a box of crackerjacks. Basically, if there is nothing important first run and you've seen the news, Turner Classic Movies is a good place for them to look to, "see what's on".

I stopped by a 400 site RV park yesterday where I service the DISH Network system, and the owner-manager, who micro-manages the property and nearly always knows immediately when he has any kind of channel problem, said he was not aware that he had lost those channels.


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## shadough

mwdxer said:


> There is always another answer. If someone wanted to I guess they could subscribe to both Dish and Direct or Dish and cable. That way, they probably would never miss anything. If either had a dispute, they could watch the missing channels on the other. I wonder if anyone has both Dish and Direct or Dish and Cable? If a person has money, affording it would be no biggie. I have Dish and Charter cable for the internet, but not their TV as I like Dish better, but it would be an easy fix if I wanted to spend an extra $30-$40 a month. There may be a cheap package that has CNN. But with the Roku and other news channels on Dish, plus my big dish, I get plenty of TV anyway.


For me, sort of/kind of. I have Dish, an also have 1 Directv box as well; Additionally I have access to Cable TV too, but at my parents house, bout a 10 min drive away. Don't have cableTV @home but do have Cox Internet.


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## Stewart Vernon

I have yet to see ANY evidence that Dish, DirecTV, or any other provider has lost significant subscribers during any of these disputes. As James said, it's easy to go online and rant... it's harder to make a choice and commit to it. Also, even if you bail on Dish and go to DirecTV or cable... then you come back to Dish when that company has their next dispute.

There is churn with all the providers every quarter... dispute or no dispute I've never seen evidence that the churn was significantly effected by any dispute.

Most people are oblivious to this... and the ones who notice, most of them aren't going to do anything but vent a bit and then play the waiting game. It's the same story time and again.

These disputes come and go.

It's like they used to say about defending against Barry Sanders on the football field... you were a fool if you tried to chase him around as he bobbed and weaved and spun and turned... stay where you are, take a defensible position and wait for him to come back your way eventually. You wear yourself out chasing this stuff... eventually the channels come back.


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## harsh

In this instance, most of the pundits (those that have an opinion and live to share it with everyone) say that Turner is the one that's going to get burned in this. DISH has demonstrated that bundling of the channels doesn't make them worth more and that's likely to cause somewhat of a shiver among the content originators who have spread their product so thin across so many channels.


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## mwdxer

With the intisement coming from Direct TV, it doesn't cost the sub anything to switch does it? Once their contract of 2 years is met, there is nothing keeping anyone from switching I wouldn't think. I have heard of people who switch back and forth looking for the best deal at the time. That would drive me nuts. I like stability.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> As far as "DISH has more disputes than anyone else" ... I have heard that stated so many times that people assume it is true whether or not it is true or not. Every provider has disputes ... every provider has had channels go dark because of disputes. Perhaps DISH's disputes are easier to remember ... or the reputation is driving a false perception.


Actually, that is true. Slightly over 50% of the blackouts have been on just 2 systems - TWC and Dish.

CBS had never had a blackout until TWC pulled the plug.

Now, this is the first Negotiation with Turner since they signed the brand new NBA HUGE $24 BILLION 9 YEAR Contract several weeks ago. As that deal averages $2.6B per year split between ESPN and Turner, it will force a cable bill increase of approximately $2 per month to cover it. This also means that this will probably not be a short blackout.

As such, I expect we will see MANY blackouts of Turner as contracts come due.

NOW, as CBS's contract with DISH expires in November, expect to see CBS go dark after the November Sweeps - right around Thanksgiving. And considering how CBS feels about getting $2 per sub retransmission - as well as feeling deceived by the Hopper just after the last contract, this one could be ugly as well.

All said, DISH could very easily have the NBA on TURNER blacked out AND NFL on CBS Blacked Out in December (I would point out that this would only happen in Markets with a CBS O&O - not a CBS Affiliate).

But all told, December will be VERY interesting for Dish Customers.


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## mwdxer

With CBS, nearly everyone has an OTA CBS station, so losing a network, most can get it OTA. Also CBS streams for $6.95 a month. It is their library going way back to the I Love Lucy days too. But TCM is hard to replace. CNN is available online.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

mwdxer said:


> With CBS, nearly everyone has an OTA CBS station, so losing a network, most can get it OTA. Also CBS streams for $6.95 a month. It is their library going way back to the I Love Lucy days too. But TCM is hard to replace. CNN is available online.


CBS All Access is $5.95 but the NFL football games are NOT included.

NBA Season games will also not be available on TBS.

That is where it is going to hit the fan.


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## tsmacro

First of all Dish hasn't lost TNT or TBS plus even if we had it's not like fans of any particular team are going to miss many games, they just do a few "showcase games" which means for most teams they'll be on TNT once or twice (if you're a big city team or one of the current power teams you might be on a few more times) but all the rest of the time fans of their NBA team will get to watch them on their local channel or regional sports net channel like they always do, so your average NBA fan would probably barely care even if TNT and TBS were gone. Now CBS being gone would defintely cause a little more hoopla, but to speculate on what may or may not happen there means absolutely nothing at this point. It was just a year ago when there were people saying that Dish was going to come crashing down and burn to ashes because of the Disney/ABC/ESPN contract and yet that all got handled w/out most Dish subscribers ever even knowing there was a negotiation going on.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

tsmacro said:


> First of all Dish hasn't lost TNT or TBS plus even if we had it's not like fans of any particular team are going to miss many games, they just do a few "showcase games" which means for most teams they'll be on TNT once or twice (if you're a big city team or one of the current power teams you might be on a few more times) but all the rest of the time fans of their NBA team will get to watch them on their local channel or regional sports net channel like they always do, so your average NBA fan would probably barely care even if TNT and TBS were gone. Now CBS being gone would defintely cause a little more hoopla, but to speculate on what may or may not happen there means absolutely nothing at this point. It was just a year ago when there were people saying that Dish was going to come crashing down and burn to ashes because of the Disney/ABC/ESPN contract and yet that all got handled w/out most Dish subscribers ever even knowing there was a negotiation going on.


Well, TNT and TBS are part of expiring deal. Dish took off all the others prior to contract expiration - but kept those one as they are the most watched....but those all go away at expiration anyway.

Disney was totally different than CBS with ESPN et al making 4-5 x the price CBS is getting now.

Dish has pissed off Moonves with the Hopper. He also wants $2 per sub.

Both these will be very expensive contracts for Charlie - and we all know how Charlie feels about that.

Enjoy the Hopper on CBS for the last month with it's auto commercial deletion....while you still can.


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## Paul Secic

mwdxer said:


> With the intisement coming from Direct TV, it doesn't cost the sub anything to switch does it? Once their contract of 2 years is met, there is nothing keeping anyone from switching I wouldn't think. I have heard of people who switch back and forth looking for the best deal at the time. That would drive me nuts. I like stability.


I just go with the flow when these dispute ochre. It's too much to trouble.


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## tsmacro

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Well, TNT and TBS are part of expiring deal. Dish took off all the others prior to contract expiration - but kept those one as they are the most watched....but those all go away at expiration anyway.
> 
> Disney was totally different than CBS with ESPN et al making 4-5 x the price CBS is getting now.
> 
> Dish has pissed off Moonves with the Hopper. He also wants $2 per sub.
> 
> Both these will be very expensive contracts for Charlie - and we all know how Charlie feels about that.
> 
> Enjoy the Hopper on CBS for the last month with it's auto commercial deletion....while you still can.


Dish didn't remove Turner's other channels "prior to contract expiration" if they had they'd be breaking a contract and could get taken to court for it. Turner didn't extend permission to Dish to continue to broadcast those channels after the contract expired and therefore Dish isn't currently allowed to rebroadcast them. Why it's just those channels and not TNT and TBS? I don't know, I'm not sure anyone who hasn't read the contract between those two companies would know. Possibly they signed one deal for their two big flagship channels and a seperate one for the rest of their stable of channels? Maybe Turner is doing the Carrot and Stick thing? Offering permission for Dish to continue to broadcast TNT and TBS as the carrot and witholding the others as the stick? Like I said I don't know, neither do you or likely anyone else here.
As for CBS like I said last year people were gearing up for this epic battle between Disney and Dish and they pointed to all this "bad blood" over the past few years as "proof" that it was going to get ugly and then it all ended up getting worked out with no real drama other than what people on the internet tried to whip up, which as usual amounted to nothing.


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## inkahauts

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Actually, that is true. Slightly over 50% of the blackouts have been on just 2 systems - TWC and Dish.
> 
> CBS had never had a blackout until TWC pulled the plug.
> 
> Now, this is the first Negotiation with Turner since they signed the brand new NBA HUGE $24 BILLION 9 YEAR Contract several weeks ago. As that deal averages $2.6B per year split between ESPN and Turner, it will force a cable bill increase of approximately $2 per month to cover it. This also means that this will probably not be a short blackout.
> 
> As such, I expect we will see MANY blackouts of Turner as contracts come due.
> 
> NOW, as CBS's contract with DISH expires in November, expect to see CBS go dark after the November Sweeps - right around Thanksgiving. And considering how CBS feels about getting $2 per sub retransmission - as well as feeling deceived by the Hopper just after the last contract, this one could be ugly as well.
> 
> All said, DISH could very easily have the NBA on TURNER blacked out AND NFL on CBS Blacked Out in December (I would point out that this would only happen in Markets with a CBS O&O - not a CBS Affiliate).
> 
> But all told, December will be VERY interesting for Dish Customers.


The majority of the NBA deal is ESPN and ABC, which already just renewed their deal with DIsh...

And NBATV is part of the TNT deal as I recall, since they run it for them, which add another channel that negotiations completely separately for carriage, or least it has....

I have ot wonder if this particular dispute is less about price for linear channels and more about all the digital rights...

And I bet CBS follows the ABC direction when it comes to Hopper. Just because because the head hates Hopper publicly doesn't mean its also not part of his negotiating tactic to get more concessions from Dish easier...

I think the reason TNT and TBS are done separately is because of history. I believe they where done together years ago, then the other family of channels slowly expanded and where done separately so as to not wait for the two main ones to need renewing to get the newer versions on...


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## mwdxer

I did not know the games are not streamed with an online subscription to CBS. There is a difference between what a sub gets via streaming and what they would ge from an OTA channel carried by Dish. I guess with CBS, the sub would have to get access to a local OTA station. But I would presume an antenna would do that. TBS/TNT is another possible hornets nest brewing down the pike. But I guess we have to live with these disputes in this day. However, years ago I do not remember disputes between programmers when it came to cable.


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## Orion9

Frankly, I wouldn't pay CBS $6/month for streaming even temporarily because I'd be afraid that that would convince them that their channel is actually _worth_ 6 bucks a month to people.

Better to go OTA, or even better, in my opinion, to just ignore the issue since we can never keep up with the DVR as it is. (If "the issue" even happens.)


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## tsmacro

So according to the following article TBS and TNT do have their own seperate deal from the rest of the Turner channels.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/randy-hall/2014/10/22/cnn-hln-dumped-dish-network-replaced-msnbc-programs


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## mwdxer

The only thing that CBS has to offer streaming, may be the library of their old classic TV shows from the past, but I do not know how much of that is streaming. But most have OTA CBS, as I did when ABC (Fisher) was dropped for 6 months. The only thing was than KATU's translator was in analog SD, which it still is. The last hold out on analog here on the Northern Oregon Coast. The rest of the translators are in digital HD. KATU will switch next year we have been told.But at least most of the networks are available to us, if Dish has a dispute in the future.
By the way, when these disputs happen, is it the programmer that drops Dish or does Dish drop the programmer? I would think the programmer would drop Dish, as Dish could in theory continue to run the programming until the dispute is resolved. Anyone know?


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## Mojo Jojo

I noticed Dish made the following channel changes:
132&385--MGM HD (&SD)
169&175--Nick Jr.
176&178--Nicktoons Network
200&209--Msnbc HD
201&215-Al Jazeera America
202&212-The Blaze


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## nmetro

Well, Al Jazeera America may get the visibility it always wanted.
MGM-HD, though not commercial free; it is an improvement over FXM
NIck Jr and Nicktoons adds more diversity to running Discovery Family on four channels
Not sure why Blaze, instead of something like CNBC, Bloomberg or even FOX News would have been a better choice. A good time to try out BBC World.

So, it looks like DISH and Turner are in a long term fight. For those who subscribe to lower tiers, they will get channels they did not have access to.

Out of all of this, the only channel that I miss is TCM. Fortunately, GetTV (OTA sub-channel) takes care of the void with classic movies; though the commercials can be annoying.



Mojo Jojo said:


> I noticed Dish made the following channel changes:
> 132&385--MGM HD (&SD)
> 169&175--Nick Jr.
> 176&178--Nicktoons Network
> 200&209--Msnbc HD
> 201&215-Al Jazeera America
> 202&212-The Blaze


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Actually, that is true. Slightly over 50% of the blackouts have been on just 2 systems - TWC and Dish.


Do you have a source? And why include TWC? Just to inflate the claim against DISH?


----------



## Dude111

James Long said:


> There are less people jumping ship than threatening. It is real easy to post nasty comments on Facebook and the rest of the Internet.


Yes well that doesnt accomplish much Im afraid James.... ACTION usually does


----------



## mwdxer

Do we really know how many people are leaving Dish?


----------



## mnassour

About five! :group: Given the dislike of certain groups for CNN, it actually may be *gaining* customers. What's interesting is that at one time this would have generated an explosion of talk and news. Now it's just......meh.


----------



## Paul Secic

nmetro said:


> Well, Al Jazeera America may get the visibility it always wanted.
> MGM-HD, though not commercial free; it is an improvement over FXM
> NIck Jr and Nicktoons adds more diversity to running Discovery Family on four channels
> Not sure why Blaze, instead of something like CNBC, Bloomberg or even FOX News would have been a better choice. A good time to try out BBC World.
> 
> So, it looks like DISH and Turner are in a long term fight. For those who subscribe to lower tiers, they will get channels they did not have access to.
> 
> Out of all of this, the only channel that I miss is TCM. Fortunately, GetTV (OTA sub-channel) takes care of the void with classic movies; though the commercials can be annoying.


Dish should have put Blockbuster rather than MGM HD.


----------



## AntAltMike

Paul Secic said:


> Dish should have put Blockbuster rather than MGM HD.


I remember back more than a decade ago, when DISH was having flaky, intermittent problems with their DVR that they were reluctant to acknowledge, they "accidentally" enabled HBO on the suspect units, and so a lot of DVR owners wouldn't send them in for exchange for fear of losing the HBO that they had accidentally gained free access to. Of course, once DISH came up with a software revision that stabilized those DVRs, the free HBO went away.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

mwdxer said:


> Do we really know how many people are leaving Dish?


Nope... and we never will. The closest you can get is to look at the quarterly churn whenever those numbers come out and compare to previous quarters or the same quarter in the previous year and see if you can extrapolate any difference during the quarters where a dispute was in progress.

But I've never seen anyone be able to concretely find proof that any of these disputes ever significantly affects the churn that happens at all of these providers on a regular basis.

Sure, some folk will call up and even say "I'm cancelling because you lost CNN" but the reality might be that customer was looking for an excuse to cancel anyway and without the dispute he might have been looking for a new customer deal at DirecTV or cable anyway.


----------



## damondlt

I think the proof is the fact that dish has been dancing around the same subscriber rate.
When you ask people about Dish Network, the first response I've encountered numerous times was "don't they drop channels all the time"

So I do think these disputes make the overall subscriber rate flat line.

But again only my opinion, but there is a reason they aren't stealing massive customers from Directv or even cable for that matter.


----------



## mwdxer

Direct does have more Sports, so that is probably one reason many flock to Direct. Isn't Direct generally more expensive than Dish and also does not carry a lot of channels in the Blockbuster pacage that Dish has? People with kids like the Disney mux and when Dish lost Disney HD, some complained, but I cannot imagine kids carring if the picture was in HD or not. But people like to complain about something. I am sure some are unhappy, especially with the loss on TCM. I watch CNN sometimes, but with MSNBC, AlJ, and other channels now, CNN is less important. There is no perfect provider out there.


----------



## lparsons21

The RSNs have no value to me. Give me golf and boxing and I'm good to go for sports.

But the loss of the Turner channels, the increase in packages because of the increases in the Premiums has got me thinking and looking. I generally keep the T250 w/SHO & HBO which has been OK. But I've been looking at my recordings and timers and I'm seeing damned few set for anything on either SHO or HBO.

Right now I'm actually at T200 primarily because of BBCA. Thinking very seriously about dropping back to the T120 w/o RSNs and let the Premiums punt most of the time. Maybe an occasional month to binge record when a really good series shows up. Pick up the only show that is mandatory on BBCA, Doctor Who, with a rental or just buy the season.



Sent from my Surface with Windows 8 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## mwdxer

I have thought about going down to a smaller package. I think the lowest that I could get MSNBC would be T200, as anything less does not have that inclused. I wonder how long Dish will continue carrying the Super Stations? With Dish the only carrier that has been around here, I wonder if the contract and licensing will be renewed? I how so, but since Dish is not offereing the channel to new subs, I have thought about it.


----------



## tampa8

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Well, TNT and TBS are part of expiring deal. Dish took off all the others prior to contract expiration - but kept those one as they are the most watched....


Where did you get that from? The contract ended Turner decided to pull the programming. TNT and TBS are not part of that contract.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

damondlt said:


> I think the proof is the fact that dish has been dancing around the same subscriber rate.
> When you ask people about Dish Network, the first response I've encountered numerous times was "don't they drop channels all the time"
> 
> So I do think these disputes make the overall subscriber rate flat line.
> 
> But again only my opinion, but there is a reason they aren't stealing massive customers from Directv or even cable for that matter.


That's not even close to proof.

DirecTV and cable aren't exactly taking customers from Dish either.

Look at the churn from all the major providers when they give their quarterly reports... every company is losing large numbers, but sometimes they gain about as much as they lose and stay relatively flat.

There is just no concrete indicator anywhere that demonstrates that these disputes have had any significant impact in the bottom line for any company involved in the dispute.


----------



## Mojo Jojo

mwdxer said:


> I have thought about going down to a smaller package. I think the lowest that I could get MSNBC would be T200, as anything less does not have that inclused. I wonder how long Dish will continue carrying the Super Stations? With Dish the only carrier that has been around here, I wonder if the contract and licensing will be renewed? I how so, but since Dish is not offereing the channel to new subs, I have thought about it.


I keep seeing members post about MSNBC being in AT200, but I thought it was added a while back to AT120. I know it is in the Welcome Pack (SD only except for now with the Turner dispute)


----------



## James Long

damondlt said:


> But again only my opinion, but there is a reason they aren't stealing massive customers from Directv or even cable for that matter.


The days of massive customer increases are over. Unless, of course, one redefines massive as "any number greater than DISH".


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

tampa8 said:


> Where did you get that from? The contract ended Turner decided to pull the programming. TNT and TBS are not part of that contract.


Nope, the contract does not expire until end of November. Dish is doing this preemptively according to several sources.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

Stewart Vernon said:


> There is just no concrete indicator anywhere that demonstrates that these disputes have had any significant impact in the bottom line for any company involved in the dispute.


Search for quotes from TWC about how badly they were hurt by CBS blackout. It caused significant defection in the markets involved (LA, NYC etc).


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

tsmacro said:


> Dish didn't remove Turner's other channels "prior to contract expiration" if they had they'd be breaking a contract and could get taken to court for it.


Check your sources.

Technically, Dish can pull whatever channel they want as long as they pay for it through the end of the contract.

Anyway, Court to Charlie is like the Briar Patch for Burr Rabbit.

And actually, I would not call it a contract. The Contract expired and there have been 2 extensions while trying to work a deal. That extension expires next Month.

Dish is using the lesser viewed channels to try and force Turner to their Terms with least amount of damage....but Turner will not come down, as they cannot, especially after the Sports Rights they have agreed to over the past 2 years.

Just like TWC pulled CBS last year even though CBS gave them an extension, Dish is doing the same thing to try and force an extension....just like TWC thought they would do. BTW, up until that point CBS had NEVER pulled their signal during re-transmission disputes. But considering everything, including how badly TWC was hurt by their own admission, I expect Moonves will come guns blazing at Dish.

Regardless, we will know for sure by 12/01. Besides, what do i know. I am just Some Random Idiot.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> Do you have a source? And why include TWC? Just to inflate the claim against DISH?


Actually I did not have to include TWC, but the number I remembered was that Dish and TWC were responsible for over 50% of the disruptions.

That is correct.

But Dish alone was responsible for over 50% of the disruptions.

"Since 2012, nearly 90% of programming disputes involve only Time Warner Cable, DirecTV or Dish Network. Dish alone is responsible for over 50% of these viewer service disruptions."

http://tvfreedom.org/news-release-020314.php


----------



## damondlt

Stewart Vernon said:


> That's not even close to proof.
> 
> DirecTV and cable aren't exactly taking customers from Dish either.
> 
> Look at the churn from all the major providers when they give their quarterly reports... every company is losing large numbers, but sometimes they gain about as much as they lose and stay relatively flat.
> 
> There is just no concrete indicator anywhere that demonstrates that these disputes have had any significant impact in the bottom line for any company involved in the dispute.


See, I don't agree, directv has a 6 million customer lead
Why do you think that is?
It's obviously not a cheaper sevice.
Channel drops don't help that number.
Huge Unserved sports markets like NY DMA's don't help. Also from a channel dispute .

And let's go right for the price difference from Dish and directv.
Directv has billions invested in sports, dish doesn't carry a fraction of major sports.
But yet, I can only muster up $10 savings per month over directv.

So yes their lack of and drops have taken a toll on their subscriber counts.

And it's going to get worse.


----------



## tampa8

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Nope, the contract does not expire until end of November. Dish is doing this preemptively according to several sources.


You are wrong, period. Get a link that says that the channels now not on DISH are not yet expired. I continue to be amazed by some.

"Turner Broadcasting, which licenses the channels for distribution to subscription services, pulled the channels from Dish's lineup *upon the expiration of its current deal* with the satellite service after the two companies were unable to negotiate renewed distribution terms."

http://www.cnet.com/news/dish-loses-channels-in-contract-dispute-with-turner-broadcasting/


----------



## tampa8

damondlt said:


> See, I don't agree, directv has a 6 million customer lead
> Why do you think that is?
> It's obviously not a cheaper sevice.
> Channel drops don't help that number.
> Huge Unserved sports markets like NY DMA's don't help. Also from a channel dispute .
> 
> And let's go right for the price difference from Dish and directv.
> Directv has billions invested in sports, dish doesn't carry a fraction of major sports.
> But yet, I can only muster up $10 savings per month over directv.
> 
> So yes their lack of and drops have taken a toll on their subscriber counts.
> 
> And it's going to get worse.


Wow so much to comment on, I'll take two things. First, please tell me the sports Direct TV has that DISH does not, and the sports DISH has that Direct TV does not. There is no huge difference either way. Direct TV has the NFL package but for the most part you pay extra for that, it isn't free, in fact partly why Direct TV generally costs more even if you don't get that package. As it happens DISH has college sports Direct TV does not.

Second, a $10 savings a month, $120 a year is a decent savings. I don't know what you expect. but it's apparently unrealistic. In the equation is equipment. If DISH didn't invest money (BIG money) into equipment technology maybe there would be even a bigger savings. Even their older receivers are better than what many Cable operators are still using.

And third (ok I lied, three things) DISH made an informed decision that Charlie actually explained at the time concerning the NY RSN's. They are the most costly, and looking at their subscriber count there, and knowing generally how many would drop DISH with no RSN's there, how many would stay, and how many they probably won't get no matter what , it was better financially to simply not carry them. And by the way, Direct TV does not carry every RSN.


----------



## damondlt

Sports directv has, MLB packs, NFL st.
The 2 most viewed sports in America.
Just because you say , wow , doesn't mean you have anymore clue than the next guy.
Because fact is you don't know if there has been a decline or if there hasn't been. 
$120 per year isn't enough to go without , MSG, MSG Plus , YES SNY, Missing HD premiums., And now the never ending dropped channels disputes.

DIRECTV puts out far more money for programming than Dish, and $120 a year is the best they can do? 
Well I guess when you have to payout lawsuits on a yearly basis for millions you can't afford to give your customer a bigger discount.

Sorry I'd rather have options than $120 per year savings. 

If you think having 50% of all providers channels disputes doesn't put a hurt on over all potential subscribers , you are blind.


----------



## Paul Secic

lparsons21 said:


> The RSNs have no value to me. Give me golf and boxing and I'm good to go for sports.
> 
> But the loss of the Turner channels, the increase in packages because of the increases in the Premiums has got me thinking and looking. I generally keep the T250 w/SHO & HBO which has been OK. But I've been looking at my recordings and timers and I'm seeing damned few set for anything on either SHO or HBO.
> 
> Right now I'm actually at T200 primarily because of BBCA. Thinking very seriously about dropping back to the T120 w/o RSNs and let the Premiums punt most of the time. Maybe an occasional month to binge record when a really good series shows up. Pick up the only show that is mandatory on BBCA, Doctor Who, with a rental or just buy the season.
> 
> Sent from my Surface with Windows 8 Pro using Tapatalk


I thought you with DirecTV..


----------



## Orion9

damondlt said:


> When you ask people about Dish Network, the first response I've encountered numerous times was "don't they drop channels all the time"


That has _never_ come up when I have talked to anyone about Dish.

Anyway, since you suggested looked for TWC quotes, I googled around and found:



> Conflicts between TV programmers and cable and satellite operators have become common. In September, a struggle between DirecTV and one of the nation's largest broadcasters, Raycom Media, led to a seven-day blackout of popular Raycom stations in the South and Midwest. Time Warner Cable customers went a month last year without CBS stations in a particular thorny dispute.
> 
> "It seems like these disputes are getting uglier and uglier," said Derek Baine, a cable analyst with consulting firm SNL Kagan.
> Pay-TV operators have been pushing back on programmers' demands for higher fees to carry their channels. These distributors - including Dish, DirecTV and Time Warner Cable - are trying to manage programming costs because they fear losing customers, who increasingly complain of rising monthly bills.





> At the same time, media companies such as Turner 's parent, Time Warner, have been looking for additional revenue to grow earnings and cover higher programming costs, particularly for sports. This month Turner struck a new nine-year, $11 billion agreement with the National Basketball Association after agreeing to pay fees to the NBA that were more than double the current level.





> Baine noted that the Dish-Turner talks broke down less than a week after Time Warner executives promised Wall Street that it would achieve growth through double-digit affiliate fee increases. He also said that major distributors like Comcast, Time Warner Cable, AT&T and DirecTV are planning to merge, which could help them gain an upper hand in negotiations with programmers.





> Turner and Dish have been struggling to reach an agreement for several months. The contract was set to expire in July, but Turner extended the deadline several times because the negotiations seemed to have been progressing - until they stalled Monday, according to one person close to the talks, who asked not to be identified discussing internal matters.





> Wall Street shrugged off the dispute because analysts expect the impasse to be settled fairly quickly. What's more, one analyst said viewers have other options for news and cartoons.
> Time Warner's stock fell 47 cents to $77.22 a share. Dish's stock climbed $1.96 to $60.66.


And it's hardly just Dish:



> More worrisome to investors has been an action taken by Suddenlink Communications, the seventh-largest cable operator in the U.S. with 1.4 million customers. The company decided in late September to dump Viacom Inc. channels, including Comedy Central, MTV and Nickelodeon, when the two sides failed to agree on a new deal.
> 
> Suddenlink said the Viacom channels were no longer must-haves. The move demonstrated that cable operators might be emboldened to shed lower performing channels.





> Fox says that DirecTV is threatening to pull the plug on its national and regional cable networks on Nov. 1 unless a new carriage fee agreement can be reached.
> 
> In a statement on a site set up by the satellite provider, DirecTV CEO Mike White says that Fox parent News Corp. "has demanded that DirecTV customers pay nearly 40% more for the same channels they already received. If a new deal is not reached, we will be forced to suspend the channels as early as Nov. 1."


(The DirecTV quote is in the past.)

Interestingly, as I attempted to google comments about cable/sat dropping channels, I found significantly more pages about people dropping cable/sat with cost being the number one reason. So with comments found on the internet as my metric (and yes there is a certain amount of sarcasm in that) it appears Dish is wise to control its costs.


----------



## damondlt

Did you read this?
http://tvfreedom.org/news-release-020314.php

No one said it was just dish!!!
But 50% of all disputes is Dish Network.


----------



## harsh

Paul Secic said:


> Dish should have put Blockbuster rather than MGM HD.


Blockbuster (the channel) isn't a substitute for the missing Turner channels. That would be silly.


----------



## harsh

damondlt said:


> Did you read this?
> http://tvfreedom.org/news-release-020314.php
> 
> No one said it was just dish!!!
> But 50% of all disputes is Dish Network.


DIRECTV has had quite a few more dispute-related "outages" than DISH this year. It probably comes from being on different renewal cycles.


----------



## Orion9

damondlt said:


> Did you read this?
> http://tvfreedom.org/news-release-020314.php


Well that's a website from "the other side" - a bunch of local OTA broadcasters who don't think that sat/cable companies pay them enough. So while I would expect them to disagree with cable/sat companies, I wouldn't go to them for a balanced/unbiased statistics. Have you noticed for example, that it gives lots of stats about pay TV revenues without doing the same for the broadcasters? Also never mentions how much of that revenue is profit etc. I would be happy to think that Dish might be more aggressive in keeping these costs low, but I wouldn't tend to believe that if the only claim comes from that site.

By the way, did you notice that directly below the part you quoted it says:



> Today, 99% of carriage-related disputes are resolved through good faith negotiations, without service disruption to consumers.


In short, if the site is true, we consumers are only being exposed to the tip of the tip of the iceberg in terms of all the disputes going on.


----------



## Orion9

By the way, the TVfreedom site also asserts that cable/sat companies are paying way too much to cable channels with low ratings and not enough for broadcasters which, according to that site, have much higher ratings. So it would seem that they would be on the side of Dish in this dispute.


----------



## James Long

damondlt said:


> See, I don't agree, directv has a 6 million customer lead
> Why do you think that is?


DirecTV started with over a million DBS customer lead ... and had an over 3 million customer lead in 2005.

To assume any one reason for that lead is folly. There are a combination of reasons why people choose one provider over another.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> "Since 2012, nearly 90% of programming disputes involve only Time Warner Cable, DirecTV or Dish Network. Dish alone is responsible for over 50% of these viewer service disruptions."
> 
> http://tvfreedom.org/news-release-020314.php


That site is not referring to cable channels such as CNN/Turner, it is referring to broadcast channels that are carried via retransmission consent laws. Guess who is paying for that website? An organization that believes paying $4-$5 per month in retransmission fees for locals is no problem for pay TV subscribers.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Nope, the contract does not expire until end of November. Dish is doing this preemptively according to several sources.


OK ... now you are accusing DISH Network of lying. It would be fairly simple for CNN/Turner to put out a correction that stated that the contract has not ended. Where is it?

The contract ended, DISH no longer has permission to carry the channels that are not being carried. The contract for TBS and TNT is separate.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/21/media/turner-dish-network-dispute/


----------



## James Long

damondlt said:


> Well I guess when you have to payout lawsuits on a yearly basis for millions you can't afford to give your customer a bigger discount.


Look at the profit margins and tell me that DirecTV making ~$20 per subscriber per month is giving their customers a bigger discount than DISH. 

But congratulations on hitting most of the stereotypical "why DISH is bad" touchstones in your post.


----------



## lparsons21

Paul Secic said:


> I thought you with DirecTV..


I have both now.


----------



## inkahauts

lparsons21 said:


> The RSNs have no value to me. Give me golf and boxing and I'm good to go for sports.
> 
> But the loss of the Turner channels, the increase in packages because of the increases in the Premiums has got me thinking and looking. I generally keep the T250 w/SHO & HBO which has been OK. But I've been looking at my recordings and timers and I'm seeing damned few set for anything on either SHO or HBO.
> 
> Right now I'm actually at T200 primarily because of BBCA. Thinking very seriously about dropping back to the T120 w/o RSNs and let the Premiums punt most of the time. Maybe an occasional month to binge record when a really good series shows up. Pick up the only show that is mandatory on BBCA, Doctor Who, with a rental or just buy the season.
> 
> Sent from my Surface with Windows 8 Pro using Tapatalk


At what point is it cheaper to have Netflix than a premium? And if you know someone else with HBO and you keep show and share each other's logins.... Which evidently HBO at least is fine with.... Just things I have long pondered.


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## mwdxer

My complaint with Netflix is they only stream a small percentage of their DVD library. At getting a disc at a time, many movies and TV series are not available for streaming. I do not know why either.


----------



## inkahauts

mwdxer said:


> My complaint with Netflix is they only stream a small percentage of their DVD library. At getting a disc at a time, many movies and TV series are not available for streaming. I do not know why either.


Contracts. Most contracts don't allow them for streaming, they only allow to have them rent DVDs, companies want to much money or have other contracts in place for streaming already.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## KyL416

DVD rights and digital streaming rights are not the same, the DVD library is just a rental thing, they have to make seperate deals to get the streaming rights along with the royalties that come with it. In some cases a premium channel like HBO, Showtime or Starz or another service like Hulu, Amazon, iTunes or Vudu might have the exclusive streaming rights. If a 3rd party like Time Life or Shout Factory created the DVDs they usually don't have the digital rights so Netflix needs to deal directly with the studio or producers. Then of course you got some things where music rights come into play, especially for some TV shows.


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## lparsons21

inkahauts said:


> At what point is it cheaper to have Netflix than a premium? And if you know someone else with HBO and you keep show and share each other's logins.... Which evidently HBO at least is fine with.... Just things I have long pondered.


If it was about the movies, then the premiums have all become pretty blah. Only advantage with movies that the premiums have is that you get to see them sooner. Most will show up on Netflix and most that don't will show up on non-premium channels at some point.

So IMO, the point of the premium is the original shows and for me, the boxing. Other than the boxing, you can sub to HBO, Starz and Max for a month and do VOD on Dish.

So I'm down to 'do I really need or care about seeing the show earlier?', and if so, how much is that worth?

Sent from my 23-n010 using Tapatalk


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## Cable Lover

I know I'm in the minority here, but I've watched "The Blaze" much more then I've ever watched CNN. Good riddance.


----------



## tsmacro

What a la Carte Has to Do With the Dish Network-Turner Broadcasting Dispute. From fool.com:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/10/24/what-a-la-carte-cable-has-to-do-with-the-dish-netw.aspx


----------



## Jaspear

Cable Lover said:


> I know I'm in the minority here, but I've watched "The Blaze" much more then I've ever watched CNN. Good riddance.


A minority of two. The Blaze in HD would be nice.


----------



## Jaspear

tsmacro said:


> What a la Carte Has to Do With the Dish Network-Turner Broadcasting Dispute. From fool.com:
> 
> http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/10/24/what-a-la-carte-cable-has-to-do-with-the-dish-netw.aspx


From the fool.com article:



> CBS is using its service as leverage even though it just launched.
> 
> If you think you'll pay less than your current cable bill by cutting the cord and subscribing to a few over-the-top services, the CBS announcement was probably a rude awakening. CBS is charging subscribers $6 per month for a channel they could otherwise get free with some rabbit ears.


Charging high rates to watch an otherwise free service using the new paradigm, while squeezing every last cent out of the old paradigm. I like it! 

And here I thought it was all about more compensation for that outrageous deal they did for the NBA rights. Or maybe, that too. Might as well pile on when you've got the opportunity.


----------



## acostapimps

Dish and Directv will always have disputes with content providers when retransmission fees keep rising, how would you like it if your utility bills kept raising prices with no explanation? Would you quit paying and have them shut off your service? Or would you just accept it and pay without the risk of cutting you off?

that's just the name of this game unfortunately have to play, Of course you can always cancel and pay ETF if on contract unlike you're utility bills but Dish or Directv or any provider don't have that option without p---ing off customers and stockholders

So we can all easily say don't need CNN or whatever so that they could keep my bill low, but not the other several million subs think like you do, but those channels will return because neither want to lose, it's just a question of when


----------



## jsk

I watch one show on CNN and was able to see almost all of it online. No big loss for me. I can go to Fox, Al Jeezra America via Dish or CNN International and a variety of other International news networks via my Roku (Nowhere TV App) for breaking news. 

I never watch the other networks involved. I would miss Conan a little if TBS were involved, but much of his shows are on his web site (and on my Roku). 

As far as i am concerned, Dish can drop them all together and i would be fine. Years ago, I would have been outraged if CNN was dropped; now, its just a small inconvenience. I find myself disappointed with the constant stream of "experts" arguing and the lack of facts on Fox, CNN, and MSNBC. 

I don't know how the networks can keep lowering the quality and charging more. These disputes just remind me of how I could save $75+/month.


----------



## acostapimps

See there we go right there not everybody have streaming devices or even have the luxury to have internet
and some might have caps they can't go over, the same goes with OTA.


----------



## tigerwillow1

Jaspear said:


> A minority of two. The Blaze in HD would be nice.


Make it three for The Blaze over CNN.


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## James Long

Fortunately DISH has the other news channels to fall back on ... and they will have CNN again soon enough (as well as the other channels not being mentioned here).

Personally, I've been enjoying the 24 hour coverage of CNN lately, with several hours of CNN International in the overnight hours. While they certainly have "magazine" shows they focus on human interest stories generally missing from the repeated rehash of the 24 hour news cycle.


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## mwdxer

Direct TV started first and had an edge on the customer count before Dish was launched. That does help.


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## mwdxer

Thanks for the info. It sounds unless the rules change to make streaming more friendly in the future, renting a DVD is probably the best all around. I was quite surprised that the Netflix library of strreaming is so small.


----------



## AntAltMike

mwdxer said:


> Direct TV started first and had an edge on the customer count before Dish was launched. That does help.


It seems to me that DirecTV has maintained a constant differential of about 6 million subscribers for about a decade or so.

Back when I used to be more involved in residential installations and was more aware or subscriber levels, I was always amazed that DISH seemed to stay "even" with DirecTV in growth, because just about any cable TV subscriber I spoke to who was considering switching to satellite knew the name DirecTV, but few knew the name DISH, and a lot of people thought that DirecTV was just a generic name for small dish satellite.


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## mwdxer

For me, comparing Direct with Dish, I find in general channels, Dish has more than Direct. I am not a sports fan, so that is not an interest. TWC in KC offers more news channels than Dish, CNNI as well as BBC World. Some cable or Fibre companies may offer more than Dish, but since we only have Charter here, Dish is still the best.


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## pjunk

I have been with Dish for many years and seen my bill increase every year sometimes 2 times a year and now with several of our family's favorite channels gone and reading the posts and seeing that Direct TV is offering a good deal to join I may just do that I am so sick of hearing Charlie from Dish saying things are too high I think people should leave Dish and go elsewhere also I think Dish should offer everyone some type of a refund on there next months bill for the channels that were lost replacing them with channels we ALL READY HAVE is stupid having the same show on 3 channels because Dish can get their S**T together is plain dumb. I also agree with some of the posts that if these places would let you pick your own channels for a monthly service fee that would be great so you are not paying for channels you don't watch but fat chance cheap Charlie from Dish would do that he living high off the hog on our dime. I hope they can work out a deal so we can get those channels back its got to be give and take on both sides but it is always the middle people consumers who get it in the end, this won't be the first and it won't be the last that Dish shafted all of us. I think it is time to take a stand against Dish !!!!!


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## lparsons21

While switching can and does make sense now and then, if you are expecting D* to be substantially different you are in for a rude awakening.

D* and E* are neither shy about raising rates and more recently, both are more willing to let contracts go to pulling stations. Same with cable.

And BTW, we are not in the middle, we are at the shi**y end of the stick!! 

Sent from my Surface with Windows 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## mwdxer

Do you think the BOD at Echostar is doing without their Turner channels? Maybe or maybe not. With the money, they can afford to get them elsewhere while this dispute is going on. Money talks. But again, we have that choice to stay with any company out there. But remember as stated here several times, there is no perfect company. Direct has their issues too, as well as cable.


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## Stewart Vernon

On the news tangent...

I would watch more Blaze and Al Jazeera America if they would pick up HD feeds of those channels. Now, during the CNN/Turner dispute would be a great time to do that and pick up new viewers too.

I know Blaze has HD content on the Web... I don't know if anyone carries them in HD. Al Jazeera is particularly frustrating because Dish runs promos ALL the time for that channel in HD... but then Dish doesn't carry the HD feed so you tune in and are disappointed the channel doesn't look as good as the promos made it seem.

I can't believe this dispute will go on too long because it has to be hurting Turner more than Dish. I've missed a couple of things off Cartoon Network, but not much else... and even though I watch CNN sometimes, I have lots of options to get news on TV and the Internet so it's not the game-changer it might have been say 10+ years ago.


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## PCampbell

pjunk said:


> I have been with Dish for many years and seen my bill increase every year sometimes 2 times a year and now with several of our family's favorite channels gone and reading the posts and seeing that Direct TV is offering a good deal to join I may just do that I am so sick of hearing Charlie from Dish saying things are too high I think people should leave Dish and go elsewhere also I think Dish should offer everyone some type of a refund on there next months bill for the channels that were lost replacing them with channels we ALL READY HAVE is stupid having the same show on 3 channels because Dish can get their S**T together is plain dumb. I also agree with some of the posts that if these places would let you pick your own channels for a monthly service fee that would be great so you are not paying for channels you don't watch but fat chance cheap Charlie from Dish would do that he living high off the hog on our dime. I hope they can work out a deal so we can get those channels back its got to be give and take on both sides but it is always the middle people consumers who get it in the end, this won't be the first and it won't be the last that Dish shafted all of us. I think it is time to take a stand against Dish !!!!!


 I am with Directv and it is good for me but if you jump from Dish you may find the same channels droped when there contract is up. To me it just makes no sense to jump just a over a temporary channel dispute.


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## tsmacro

PCampbell said:


> I am with Directv and it is good for me but if you jump from Dish you may find the same channels droped when there contract is up. To me it just makes no sense to jump just a over a temporary channel dispute.


Pretty much anyone that switches due to a dispute is just telling the company that owns the channel that it's ok to raise the bill.


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## maartena

acostapimps said:


> Dish and Directv will always have disputes with content providers when retransmission fees keep rising, how would you like it if your utility bills kept raising prices with no explanation? Would you quit paying and have them shut off your service? Or would you just accept it and pay without the risk of cutting you off?
> 
> that's just the name of this game unfortunately have to play, Of course you can always cancel and pay ETF if on contract unlike you're utility bills but Dish or Directv or any provider don't have that option without p---ing off customers and stockholders
> 
> So we can all easily say don't need CNN or whatever so that they could keep my bill low, but not the other several million subs think like you do, but those channels will return because neither want to lose, it's just a question of when


You specfically name DirecTV and Dish, but of course ALL television channel carriers suffer from these disputes. TWC, Comcast, U-Verse, FIOS, Charter, etc, etc.... But it is getting ridiculous. 10 years ago there was no such thing as a blackout as a result from a dispute, they just always managed to get a deal done at the 11th hour. In recent years however we have had a large number of blackouts because of disputes. Viacom is currently blacked out on Suddenlink, and was gone for like 5 weeks from DirecTV in 2012 before they finally made a deal, and I think DirecTV probably got the better deal there, because Viacom could not afford to keep telling their advertisers that the loss of 20 million potential customers was only temporary.

But it is getting ridiculous. Here in the Los Angeles market, I cancelled DirecTV earlier this year after DirecTV announced that they would raise my rates by $5 AGAIN, after just raising them $5 in 2013 too. The cause of the $5 raise can be directly atributed in DirecTV making a deal with TWC Sportsnet for the NBA Lakers, which ended up costing them close to $4 a subscriber. DirecTV and all other carriers have not yet made a deal for the TWC Sportsnet channel that carries the Dodgers, which is another $4 per subscriber.

These deals from Turner don't add up to THAT much, and I don;t know how much Turner is charging for these channels, but all disputes start to add up. And in the end, we the consumers are footing the bill.

I used to be a DirecTV subscriber, and really big on HD channel additions, always posting on this forum about DirecTV tech stuff, etc, etc.... but repeated $5 bill increases every year for 4 years really had me thinking twice about why I still had the service. Me and my wife decided that what was offered in programming on a paid television service, simply wasn't worth it anymore. I removed the dish from its mounting pole on the roof, and replaced it with an outdoor aerial antenna I bought for $40 at home depot. I used the exact same cable, and plugged the cable into my 2 televisions and into my media server where I can record television channels, and changed over to free OTA type television.

I get about 15 HD channels, 60 SD channels (it counts up to 132 channels, but a portion of that are doubles from HD). Of that there are about 12 HD channels in English, and 30 or so SD channels in English, the rest being Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, Tagalog, and various other languages. I receive all the major networks in full HD: ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CW, MyNetworkTV, ION, PBS, and added to that are several locals in HD, such as KCAL9, KDOC, and a few others. And there are a whole range of sub channels with classic TV shows.

The rest? Netflix and Amazon Prime. Especially Amazon Prime seems to add more recent TV shows at an alarming pace, a show I follow called "under the dome" is only about 3 weeks behind broadcast.

Anyways, to make a long story short.... it is these kinds of disputes that make me happy that I cancelled subscription TV altogether. It's not for everyone, but I am not a person that needs to turn on the TV every morning before work, and turn it on within half an hour of coming home from work.... It requires a little bit of a different mindset, instead of "Lets see what's on (the DVR) tonight" you have to change your mindset to "what do you want to watch tonight", and you will have to give it some thought. It's often a lot easier to just let the DVR determine what you watch, as I will need to think about when series seasons renew, and check to see when those seasons finally appear on a streaming service. I am at least 6 months to a year behind on many TV series, but we don't mind.... it's not like we go to work the next morning and really talk about "who shot JR" anymore, TV has become a lot more fluid with the DVR, and I believe that complete, full on-demand is the next step in television.

The only kicker? Sports. Sports is hard-coded to subscription television with expensive broadcast contracts, and there is no way to get live sports through a streaming service. Okay, that is actually not true, as there are MLB and NHL streaming packages, but they are designed in such a way they do not allow the LOCAL team (on your billing zipcode) to be streamed. So in the end, the decission came down to saving $1,000 a year in costs (I had a $115 DirecTV bill, and went down to less then $25 a month for several streaming services) and keeping my local sports teams.

Well, the $1,000 won. Now if I want to watch a Ducks game (the only team I really miss) I will have to either go to the game myself (stadium is 10 minutes away) or go to a local sports bar and have a pint. (Or, find an illegal stream which is very easy to do, but low quality). I just accepted that for what it is, but not everyone is prepared to let go of their local sports teams. If you are a Football fan, you still can get a large portion of games through OTA stations, but I am not. 

Anyways, going on for way too long.... I am siding with Dish (and any carrier) in these kinds of disputes, but in the end, I simply grew sick and tired that we get to pay the bill. So I cut the service, and am pretty happy that I did.


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## tampa8

damondlt said:


> Sports directv has, MLB packs, NFL st.
> The 2 most viewed sports in America.
> Just because you say , wow , doesn't mean you have anymore clue than the next guy.
> Because fact is you don't know if there has been a decline or if there hasn't been.
> $120 per year isn't enough to go without , MSG, MSG Plus , YES SNY, Missing HD premiums., And now the never ending dropped channels disputes.
> 
> DIRECTV puts out far more money for programming than Dish, and $120 a year is the best they can do?
> Well I guess when you have to payout lawsuits on a yearly basis for millions you can't afford to give your customer a bigger discount.
> 
> Sorry I'd rather have options than $120 per year savings.
> 
> If you think having 50% of all providers channels disputes doesn't put a hurt on over all potential subscribers , you are blind.


Those are not sports DISH does not have, they packages of those sports. That is a very important distinction. I watch every Red Sox game all year on DISH, I watch every Patriots game on DISH. As for NFL Sunday ticket, NO ONE ELSE HAS
IT, in case you didn't notice. In the case of MLB, their package is actually way better to get from them directly online, for use anywhere, with a Roku, computer, tablet, etc... and with many advanced features. So having DISH has NO impact on me getting that package.

As for the NY RSN's, DUH - if they are important to someone of course you wouldn't get DISH, the fact however is there are plenty of subscribers in NY who don't care, again those that do have already left DISH, and none of the other millions of subscribers can get the pro sports teams on those RSN's so no one else cares.
Your assertion that DISH has a fraction of the sports is ludicrous, and btw as I said they have some college sports Direct does not.


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## satcrazy

Really, isn't the bottom line here "how much is my bill going to increase?"

Anyone know?

One poster speculated 2$ a month? [ that seems high]

MGM HD is OK, but the commercials suck [ TCM had none, one of my go to stations when all the constant commercials get to me] I've come to like epix drive in for this reason, lol.

If this drags on longer than a week, how about offering blockbuster in it's place? Dish could credit current subs to blockbuster until this resolves. How many stations does this affect, 6 or 7?

It would be a good faith gesture from Dish.


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## tampa8

Nothing official, there are some rumblings based on changes made in the uplink report that a deal may have been reached. Again, nothing at all official.


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## James Long

maartena said:


> 10 years ago there was no such thing as a blackout as a result from a dispute, they just always managed to get a deal done at the 11th hour.


IIRC DISH dropped some ABC/ESPN channels back in 2002 (12 years ago) due to a dispute. Part of the dispute back then was ABC Family ... which went from a religious owned family channel to Fox owned to ABC owned. DISH had contracted for the original family channel ... not one that played overflow/rehash content from Disney.

The vast majority of channel deals are made without interruption. Hopefully this one will remain short.


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## James Long

tampa8 said:


> Nothing official, there are some rumblings based on changes made in the uplink report that a deal may have been reached. Again, nothing at all official.


DISH took away the "free preview" flags on the real channel number of five channels being used for fill ... but there has been no change on the channels lost.

The website update today was:
"Our discussions with Turner continue. We've had a productive relationship with Turner for many years and we remain confident that we can reach an agreement to restore these channels."
http://dishstandsforyou.com/


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## mwdxer

At least there is talk about it ending. That is a good sign, but bepending on what the two sides can be okay with.


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## maartena

satcrazy said:


> Really, isn't the bottom line here "how much is my bill going to increase?"
> 
> Anyone know?


Typically no carrier discloses the negotiated amount. Also keep in mind that this dispute is quite public because no deal was made, and as James mentioned many deals are made way ahead of any potential deadline and therefore aren't hitting the media very hard.

DirecTV had been increasing my bill steadily by about $5 a year since 2010 and in February 2014 (after my bill was yet again increased, this time no doubt to pay for the $4 TWC Sportsnet Lakers channel) I finally had enough of it and cancelled my account. Haven't missed it one day, but then, I wasn't afraid to give up sports.


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## acostapimps

maartena said:


> Anyways, to make a long story short....


That sure don't seem short to me :biggrin: 
But you're right prices are getting ridiculously high to say the least, and pretty soon that bubble will burst for many subs
if it hasn't already, 

Although OTA is a nice way to save all that money, people want to DVR their shows, and I know people can get Tivo's for OTA recording but many aren't willing to pay those high prices and pay Tivo monthly fees, much less that extremely high lifetime service 

Just so wouldn't pay monthly, and not everybody can stream online either for reasons I already mentioned
although many with faster high speed internet can with no caps, but that will change sooner or later

So that leaves with pay TV as their only option for some.


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## mwdxer

A person could always buy a DVD recorder with a hard drive and that way, save their OTA shows to that. Of course unless a persn wanted to buy more than one, they would be stuck to record as a single tuner. Weren't the old TIVOs, you could record on the hard drive freely, but if you wanted the guide, you would have to pay? Like the Tivo 1. I see newer Tivo's at Goodwill from time to time, but I doubt a person could use one without a subscrption . I know nothing about them, not ever having any. I also see old Dish and Direct receivers at Goodwill from time to time.


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## satcrazy

maartena said:


> Typically no carrier discloses the negotiated amount. Also keep in mind that this dispute is quite public because no deal was made, and as James mentioned many deals are made way ahead of any potential deadline and therefore aren't hitting the media very hard.
> 
> DirecTV had been increasing my bill steadily by about $5 a year since 2010 and in February 2014 (after my bill was yet again increased, this time no doubt to pay for the $4 TWC Sportsnet Lakers channel) I finally had enough of it and cancelled my account. Haven't missed it one day, but then, I wasn't afraid to give up sports.


So, what are you doing for TV watching?

I do applaud you for walking away.

With the exception of PBS [ speaking for myself] there is very little on the locals the I find worth my time.

Even if I drop pay tv and up my internet speed, I feed 2 TV's, sometimes 3. That may not work for all 3.

Something has to give, however.

My income, [ retired] like many, has not kept up with inflation, and with yearly increases, and declining quality, the internet looks more inviting.

I think the decline in quality is what got me. That, and the never ending commercials.


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## david_jr

acostapimps said:


> That sure don't seem short to me :biggrin:
> But you're right prices are getting ridiculously high to say the least, and pretty soon that bubble will burst for many subs
> if it hasn't already,
> 
> Although OTA is a nice way to save all that money, people want to DVR their shows, and I know people can get Tivo's for OTA recording but many aren't willing to pay those high prices and pay Tivo monthly fees, much less that extremely high lifetime service
> 
> Just so wouldn't pay monthly, and not everybody can stream online either for reasons I already mentioned
> although many with faster high speed internet can with no caps, but that will change sooner or later
> 
> So that leaves with pay TV as their only option for some.


To add to your point, many in the satellite community are rural customers. For instance here there is no cable, high speed internet is DSL only 3.0 mbps for $50 p/month or double the bill for 7.0, and OTA even with separate UHF & VHF antennas mounted high and tweaked to death is not reliable enough for my wife's standards (she has no tolerance for momentary signal loss messages during her shows). If times get hard enough and the bill keeps going up we will obviously have to consider at least reductions in our service to start, but our alternatives, other than reductions, being rural are limited. Switching service from one you are happy with to save money is only a temporary fix and, if you think about it, does add to the overall cost of the service for someone if not us all.


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## mwdxer

Like here on the Oregon/ Washington Coasts we do have a few choices. but Cable Internet beats them all for $50 a month I get speeds of 60-66. DSL is not available here but people get about 4 or 5 with DSL on average in the county where available. There is satellite but with all out our windy stormy weather in the Fall into the Spring, heavy rains and all, there were be times with no service. Thank goodness for cable, but as mentioned above, there are still many areas without cable. I have a friend in South California up in the mountains out of San Bernardino that is very rural and there is no DSL or cable. He gets high speed from satellite, but there is little stormy weather in So Cal, so it works for him. He gets speeds up to 15, but he is limited. If he uses more than the alloted amount, he pays plenty. Between 12-5 AM I believe it is unlimited then, so being retired he is able to stay up all night to download movies, he otherwise wouldn't do. Here OTA we get more than most rural areas, as most of the Portland TV stations wants OTA coverage, so we do get ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS, and MYTV. ABC is still analog but will switch to digital next Summer. So with sub channels and all, the OTA viewer would get about a dozen channels. But again, we are lucky most of the TV stations put these translators in and all are owned by the stations themselves and are maintained. If one goes off, then all we do is call and it is back up in a day or two. Believe me with all of our Pacific storms, they are off at times, but generally very short periods. I love all of the streaming I get on the Roku, but again everyone does not have good access to high speed internet.


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## Willh

i posted on the other forum site with the reason for the dispute still not resolved:



> here's what the few holdups of why no deal yet (just my opinion, not real news)
> 1. NuTV, dish's new internet TV service that will be launched soon.
> 2. Time Warner wants more money to pay for the new NBA deal for TNT.
> 3. Time Warner/Turner is trying to bundle CNN, TCM, HLN, Boomerang, Cartoon Network/Adult Swim, TruTV and CNN en Espanol which are gone for now on Dish with the remaining Turner networks of TNT and TBS, as according to some sites, the TBS/TNT contract is set to expire soon too.
> 4. talks with the negotiators on both sides broke down for now.
> 
> again, just my opinions and not the actual facts, but i'm sure some will agree with me


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## acostapimps

mwdxer said:


> Like here on the Oregon/ Washington Coasts we do have a few choices. but Cable Internet beats them all for $50 a month I get speeds of 60-66. DSL is not available here but people get about 4 or 5 with DSL on average in the county where available. There is satellite but with all out our windy stormy weather in the Fall into the Spring, heavy rains and all, there were be times with no service. Thank goodness for cable, but as mentioned above, there are still many areas without cable. I have a friend in South California up in the mountains out of San Bernardino that is very rural and there is no DSL or cable. He gets high speed from satellite, but there is little stormy weather in So Cal, so it works for him. He gets speeds up to 15, but he is limited. If he uses more than the alloted amount, he pays plenty. Between 12-5 AM I believe it is unlimited then, so being retired he is able to stay up all night to download movies, he otherwise wouldn't do. Here OTA we get more than most rural areas, as most of the Portland TV stations wants OTA coverage, so we do get ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS, and MYTV. ABC is still analog but will switch to digital next Summer. So with sub channels and all, the OTA viewer would get about a dozen channels. But again, we are lucky most of the TV stations put these translators in and all are owned by the stations themselves and are maintained. If one goes off, then all we do is call and it is back up in a day or two. Believe me with all of our Pacific storms, they are off at times, but generally very short periods. I love all of the streaming I get on the Roku, but again everyone does not have good access to high speed internet.


I guess you made my point in details, but luckily I live in the city and could receive several locals and nearby state locals as well
with a outdoor antenna, Roku is an alternative here, but it isn't a cord cutting device IMO, although it is for those that don't have cable or sat or won't even consider it, but do have sufficient high speed internet.

But if HBO and CBS are planning for streaming plus NBA without cable or sat subscription that could change some people's mind to cord cut.


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## mwdxer

Roku does have a lot of interesting channels, not available elsewhere. I have Dish, so I can get Epix on the Roku. I don't have HBO on Dish anyway. But the Roku is a nice addition to other programming, especially all of the International channels that are free.


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## nmetro

A week has gone by since the Turner channels were dropped from DISH. So far, nothing from DISH or Turner update wise.

Contract disputes, and dropping channels, then restoring them again; has gotten old. But, as these continue, more subscribers get sick of it and find alternatives. OTA subchannels provide a nice niche for the missing Turner channels, for example

Qubo - Cartoon Network and Bommerang
ThisTV, Bounce and GetTv - Turner Classic Movies (Though there are commercials), but they do show movies in letterbox.
7 News 24 - KMGH Denver has a 24 hour news channels replace CNN and HN
Ion Life and Escape - replace TruTV more steered towards women; some movies
V-Me - PBS children's programming during the day, educational shoes in the evening
9 News Weather Plus - 24 hour weather from Weather Nation
COZI, Antenna, MeTV - Classic TV
GritTV - movies, in letterbox, directed towards male viewers (not in Denver yet)

All told, Denver has nearly 60 primary and secondary OTA channels. And new ones keep signing on.

Throw in a Roku, Apple, Google or Amazon, and one can easily bid DISH, DirecTV or one's cable company good bye. Especially when ESPN offers all its channels via live stream, and well as BTN. If Turner does this for TCM, then who needs satellite or cable? OTA is free, then pay $40 or $50/month for what I watch outside of OTA; In a couple years I will have 1GB internet fro $50 a month; $25/month cheaper than Comcast, and city owned. 

So, let Turner, Viacom, the networks, Disney, NBCUniversal, play their contract dispute, and greed, games, because the paradigm of getting content form cable or satellite will go the way of analog TV. As are their bundles of worthless reality TV channels. The problem is that those who run the media companies have a 1950s mindset and only recently discovered that the internet will be their downfall; probably too late.


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## Don M

James Long said:


> DISH took away the "free preview" flags on the real channel number of five channels being used for fill ... but there has been no change on the channels lost.
> 
> The website update today was:
> "Our discussions with Turner continue. We've had a productive relationship with Turner for many years and we remain confident that we can reach an agreement to restore these channels."
> http://dishstandsforyou.com/


I hope this is resolved soon. I have already missed several movies I wanted to see on TCM. If DISH also loses TNT I will have to seriously consider finding another provider. I have been very happy with DISH since I have been a subscriber. I pay for a whole lot more channels than I actually ever watch, but that is my choice. However, there are certain channels that are *must* have for my wife and I. Among them are TCM and TNT. I would really like to see ala carte selections for programming, but doubt that will ever happen in my lifetime.


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## satcrazy

So, the hold up in part is more $ for basketball on TNT? Really?

Here we go again, with "paying more" for sports.

I used to watch TNT, but anymore, reruns [ like "smallville"] prevail. Boring.

I can get news online or locally, bye bye news stations.

PBS has children's programming every morning.

I used to watch truetv, but that programming got crappy as well.

discID much better for anyone into that.


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## inkahauts

satcrazy said:


> So, the hold up in part is more $ for basketball on TNT? Really?
> 
> Here we go again, with "paying more" for sports.
> 
> I used to watch TNT, but anymore, reruns [ like "smallville"] prevail. Boring.
> 
> I can get news online or locally, bye bye news stations.
> 
> PBS has children's programming every morning.
> 
> I used to watch truetv, but that programming got crappy as well.
> 
> discID much better for anyone into that.


No. Actually some would say it has nothing to do with sports since none of the channels pulled have sports.

And any increase that has been asked for was asked for initially ages ago. They don't start negotiating a couple weeks in advance. At least id hope not. Usually it's months.

I think turner wants more money period and dish doesn't want to give them more. I bet dish wants streaming rights like they got from Disney too.


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## James Long

inkahauts said:


> No. Actually some would say it has nothing to do with sports since none of the channels pulled have sports.


The theory is that Turner is holding out on the channels that have expired as part of a plan to bundle them with TBS and TNT.

The bigger issue is "over the top" distribution ... DISH wants to sell channels in streaming only packages. Plus there are the usual price issues.


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## mwdxer

Here it is nearly November 1st and the channels are still gone. I watched a bit of CNN on their stream today. I wonder how long the channels will be gone from Dish?
One poster mentioned that for a DSL speed of 3, they are getting $50 a month? That seems expensive as that is what I am paying for the Cable internet at 60-66. In the county, DSL is available in some places, but not here. They have a good deal at $24.95 a month and then it goes to $39.95 a month in a few years. However the person has to bundle with their expensive long distance phone plan, so the bill can be as much as cable or more. I do bundle with Charter Cable with phone, but it is $20 a month for unlimited long distance in the US and Canada. Century Link had me on measured service. I went to Charter last year.


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## Orion9

This thread wasn't even started until Oct 20 so Nov 1 isn't very long. Note that according to some text I quoted earlier "The contract was set to expire in July, but Turner extended the deadline several times because the negotiations seemed to have been progressing". Assuming that quote from the LA Times is accurate, then the current round of negotiations is probably 5 to 12 months old already. Sometimes they wrap up quickly, sometimes they don't.


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## comizzou573

If Dish really cares about their customer they will make a deal. Dish is always disputing every single contract there is. Directv has disputed contracts in the past but not as much as Dish. I am waiting for the day to come when dish files for bankruptcy.


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## inkahauts

comizzou573 said:


> If Dish really cares about their customer they will make a deal. Dish is always disputing every single contract there is. Directv has disputed contracts in the past but not as much as Dish. I am waiting for the day to come when dish files for bankruptcy.


One I doubt they are anywhere near that point.. And two, I hope not. We all need the competition.


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## mwdxer

I doubt Dish is going bankrupt. There are millions of subs who probably could care less about the dispute. I know a couple that had not even noticed the channels were missing until I told them, as they are big sports fans and watch the premium movie channels. They never watch any of the missing channels. For news, the locals, the little they watch that. David's comment about the news, it is all too depressing and there is nothing he can do about it. They do not watch old classic movies either. They have no kids, so they could care less about Cartoons.


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## joetex

Not stressing over this dispute with Turner but to give some overall perspective: Started with Dish in 1999 and at that time we had the New York RSNs (including the Yankees who were then on MSG before YES), we had distant networks and even had some sports on the superstations (Some Dodgers on KTLA, some Rockies on KWGN). We even paid extra for religious channels on the Dish via Sky Angel, which no longer exists in its prior form.

Now slowly but surely, we are getting less. No more New York RSNs, no more distant nets, the super stations hardly show any sports, Turner Classic and Cloo are gone as well. No more Sky Angel on Dish. Not that I blame Dish, matter of fact, I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically support their efforts to stand strong in the face of demands from the NY RSNs, including YES, even though I am a die sports fan from NY. I am glad that my hard-earned money isn't going to RSNs to pay for broadcasting rights and subsidize inflated contracts to the athletes. I just wonder where the consumer stands in all of this. I am rooting for DTV, Dish and Verizon to stand tough in the dispute with the Dodgers and Time Warner. Still, it seems we are getting less and paying more and that we are fast approaching the tipping point for cable and satellite TV when compared with online TV supplemented by an OTA antenna,

Just venting I guess.


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## mwdxer

Although we have lost Distant locals and some other channels through the years, we have also gained a ton of new channels. If I remember in 1999, we had 100+ channels and now over 300+. For Sports fans, there are many new channels in the regular packages, plus the Blockbuster pak of all of those movie channels, many ad free for $10 a month. Nothing stays the same, channels come and go. Back in 1985 when I installed my big dish (which I still use), channels came and went. I remember several like Spotlight, Odyssey, etc. For the money, we still get a lot of great programming. I don't feel we are getting less, but we are not getting all of the same channels that we got in 1999, but many new ones too are there. The bills are higher, but with the advent of so many new channels, the packages carry many more channels, so the prices are higher. Add to that the programmers want more money too. Are we paying the same for anything in today's World, the same price we paid 15 years ago. One big change is OTA TV, where many get a lot more channels FTA with the digital age. But along with that, the more distant viewers lost their OTA in many places too, as digital just does not carry like analog. There is good and bad in everything.


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## Paul Secic

I bought an OTA for my TV so I could METV but it didn't work. I returned it. Bummer.


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## maartena

comizzou573 said:


> If Dish really cares about their customer they will make a deal. Dish is always disputing every single contract there is. Directv has disputed contracts in the past but not as much as Dish. I am waiting for the day to come when dish files for bankruptcy.


DirecTV was without all Viacom channels for about 6 weeks. And there were other disputes as well, they just ended a dispute with Raycom that owned 43 local stations.

All carriers suffer from these disputes. Changing carrier is not really going to help, the next dispute is simply just around the corner....


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## maartena

acostapimps said:


> That sure don't seem short to me :biggrin:
> But you're right prices are getting ridiculously high to say the least, and pretty soon that bubble will burst for many subs
> if it hasn't already,
> 
> Although OTA is a nice way to save all that money, people want to DVR their shows, and I know people can get Tivo's for OTA recording but many aren't willing to pay those high prices and pay Tivo monthly fees, much less that extremely high lifetime service
> 
> Just so wouldn't pay monthly, and not everybody can stream online either for reasons I already mentioned
> although many with faster high speed internet can with no caps, but that will change sooner or later
> 
> So that leaves with pay TV as their only option for some.


I have a media server in the house. I already had a TV card with one tuner, which was enough for me, but you can buy cards with 4 or 6 tuners if you want, although a 2 tuner card for about $100 is probably adequate for OTA because there are less channels.

There are no monthly fees, and by using something like XBMC or Windows 8.1 Metro or Windows 7 MediaCenter, you can get a good looking interface and with a $30 media center remote you are all set.

Playing video in 1080p doesn't need high-end hardware anymore either, if you have a 5-year old laptop that you are retiring, you can convert it into your media center for less then $200 to buy a TV card, a media-center remote, and maybe a big hard drive in a USB 2.0 case (3.0 is not needed for 1080p) if you require a lot of space.

Even if you have to invest the $500 or so to build your own media center PC with budget components (again, media center PC's do not require huge hardware, unless you are also going to use it as a steam game machine or something), you will have paid for everything in 6 months of Dish bills, and there are NO monthly fees to record anything.

Best of all: The recorded television will not be encrypted, so you can take it anywhere, on most any device, and play it anywhere without problems. I recently took a trip to Europe, and loaded my laptop up with recorded television from the week before.

My mediacenter PC? An old Core2Duo PC, with Windows 7, 2 GB of RAM and 250 GB hard drive (my media server has 4 TB and sits in my office). I will likely upgrade it to Windows 8.1 soon, but even with those measly specs, it is performing perfectly for video playback. All it is running is XMBC, and/or VLC, and/or a Browser for web based television, and I use a wireless mouse and keyboard (and a media center remote) on the coffee table to control it.


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## lparsons21

I pick up my locals via OTA if the sat goes south, otherwise I just don't bother.
For my other media, I have 2 things I use, both running on my day-to-day desktop that I also use for other things.

1. Playon. I just have streaming because it works well for me, but they have an add-on called PlayLater which allows for recording, and I have the HD add to it also. I don't have a need for the recording part, but it is nice to have HD.

2. ITunes. Primarily for my AppleTV, but also supports my iPad.

I like that on the HWS (and the Hopper w/o sling), I can watch the PlayOn 'Channels' in HD from the Home Media selection in menu. Works fine but doesn't do any trick play at all. Just pause. If you go away and come back, it always starts from the beginning. That's not horrible, it just is.

The channels I use it for are Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu (and plus if I have it), CW. The rest are useless to me.

I use the AppleTV for the iTunes library as well as Netflix and at odd times, some of the other selections.


Sent from my Surface with Windows 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## mwdxer

Depending on how far a person is from the OTA station. Here in Clatsop County OR, some people have tried OTA antennas without luck, but moving the antenna to a different location can make a huge difference. So far no METV OTA here as the ABC station is yet to go dignal. Next Summer METV as well as Get TV will be OTA here.


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## mwdxer

On another note, I read that it looks like another dispute will be brewing soon between Click Cable in Seattle and KOMO TV. They had one the last time the new contracts were signed and it looks like KOMO will want more money again. It does not look like these disputes are going away.


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## Reggie3

At my health club I noticed that the tv that normally carries CNN is now MSNBC. I wonder if there will be a spike in the ratings for MSNBC because of CNN not being available.


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## mwdxer

Fox News has had higher ratings than CNN in the past few years, you may be right with MSNBC at #200, it may be a nice hike in MSNBC ratings. It could not hurt, so someone may benefit by all of this.


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## James Long

I have noticed that the cross channel ads for Al Jazeera are listing both 201 and 215 as channel numbers.


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## hootowls

We've been with Dish since 1996 and have seen a lot of changes, for sure. Our first programming package was America's Top 40 - so quaint now! This current spat is really tough though with the loss of TCM. Recordings on the DVR will suffice for a time but a hard choice will need to be made if this goes on indefinitely. The hard copy monthly TCM programming guide showing up in the mail just rubs salt in the wound.


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## mwdxer

I really doubt the Turner spat will go on too long. Both are losing a lot every day.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

mwdxer said:


> Fox News has had higher ratings than CNN in the past few years, you may be right with MSNBC at #200, it may be a nice hike in MSNBC ratings. It could not hurt, so someone may benefit by all of this.


MSNBC has beaten CNN for the last several months in the ratings, but CNN+MSNBC still do not equal the ratings for Fox NEws.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

mwdxer said:


> I really doubt the Turner spat will go on too long. Both are losing a lot every day.


It's about to get worse:

Dish is already locked in a contract standoff with Time Warner Inc's Turner Broadcasting and has removed several of its channels including CNN and the Cartoon Network. The two sides continue to talk, according to a person with knowledge with the Dish-Turner talks.

The person said both Dish and Turner were making progress on price and hashing out details over Dish's streaming video service before the blackout on Oct. 21. The sticking point involved Turner's other two networks, TNT and TBS, which are under separate contracts, the person said.

*Negotiations about TNT and TBS are expected to start in a couple of weeks.*

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N0SP3ML20141102?irpc=932

And this is where the BIG MONEY increases are coming from.......


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## fudpucker

I started with Directv back in 1995. My wife got it for me when we moved from Texas to Michigan so we could get the NBA League Pass so I could watch my Rockets. Cost quite a bit to get started, as I recall. We've had satellite TV ever since, mostly Directv,, a move to Dish back in 2009, and moved to Directv this year solely for Sunday Ticket.

We had a lot less channels back years ago, but the bill was a LOT less. And when we talk about "300 channels" - well, take out all the religious channels and shopping channels, etc. and there really aren't all that many new channels. While I subscribe to a package that costs me over $100 per month (once my discounts expire in a year) because there are a couple of "must have" channels that are only in that package, our primary "favorites" guide only has about 30 channels in it. but i am paying a lot more than I did years ago when there were fewer channels.

I don't believe for a minute that Charlie is trying to look out of us, the subscribers. I think he is purely out to protect his profit margins. Which, frankly, is his obligation as the CEO of a publicly traded company: his #1 priority is to make his shareholders happy.


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## tsmacro

fudpucker said:


> I don't believe for a minute that Charlie is trying to look out of us, the subscribers. I think he is purely out to protect his profit margins. Which, frankly, is his obligation as the CEO of a publicly traded company: his #1 priority is to make his shareholders happy.


Well he's kinda looking out for the customer in the sense that he's smart enough to realize that a lot of his customers are grumbling about the high monthly bill and knows every time he has to pay more to a channel provider the bills have to go up again and therefore make his customers even less happy with Dish. Sure his reasons are primarily to protect the profitability of his company but the best way to do that is to try to make your customers happy.


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## RAD

Charlie doesn't seem to have any problems when it comes to raising a monthly fee every now and then. Sorry, just appears two faces when Dish, DIRECTV, telco's and cable companies tell me how they're fighting programmers to keep our rates low but don't have any problems raising fees for their services like STB's or cable modem rentals.


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## Stewart Vernon

It has been repeated how slim Dish's profit margins are... I'm not going to defend any big company, and that includes Dish... but consider the obvious. People that work for Dish want raises... so the price of the service is going to go up over time. If they pay all the channels a raise in fee each time, then they go up some more too... and all that gets passed to you the consumer. So, anytime Dish can cut their costs it means less increase for you.

Note, it doesn't mean NO increase... but it definitely means less of an increase.

Plus... all the Dish customers that have jobs want raises too... so you're asking your boss to pay you more for the work you're already doing... you know that impacts the rest of the company when you get a raise, and if they sell a product then you caused that product to raise in price... so it's all connected.

Some people act like this stuff happens in a vacuum or something.


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## RAD

Stewart, I agree basically with what you're saying. It's just that folks at the content providers also want to see raises. So it's OK for Dish, or whomever, to raise fees that they charge to cover increased costs but when a content provider asks for more money that's not OK?

The big piece of information that's missing from the argument is exactly how much are content providers asking for and what new things is Dish looking from them? Unless you're an executive at either company nobody really knows so there's no real good way to place the blame for who's at fault in these things.


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## lparsons21

Here's the problem for Turner. They don't have much in the contract that is up right now to negotiate over. Most of the channels in that contract have shrinking market share and have competition with nearly identical content to some others

TCM is the only channel with possibly increased value. The others have reduced value because of their poor showings in market share.

But the time it is taking is all about waiting for TBS/TNT contracts to come up. These two channels have value, possibly some increased value. Turner has no leverage until this contract expires. That's when the real battle starts.

If you don't think so, just look at the real lack of shrieking over the loss of the Turner channels that are gone now. A thundering silence outside of here and other forums that cuss and discuss these things. In the general scheme of things this is as much a non-event as I can imagine.


Sent from my Surface with Windows 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Orion9

RAD said:


> Stewart, I agree basically with what you're saying. It's just that folks at the content providers also want to see raises. So it's OK for Dish, or whomever, to raise fees that they charge to cover increased costs but when a content provider asks for more money that's not OK?


I don't know exactly what you mean by "OK" and "not OK", but it's perfectly reasonable for Dish to not carry a channel if the channel's price is too high and it's perfectly reasonable for someone to stop subscribing to Dish if the price is too high. Each buyer gets to make their own evaluation.

Every manufacturer or service provider tries to get a good price. Even my small one-man business changes suppliers when I find a better deal. You notice this with media providers because channels/networks do a good job of making themselves into big brand name semi-monopolies whereas someone can change flash memory manufacturers 6 times in a year and no one notices.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

Stewart Vernon said:


> It has been repeated how slim Dish's profit margins are... I'm not going to defend any big company, and that includes Dish... but consider the obvious. People that work for Dish want raises... so the price of the service is going to go up over time. If they pay all the channels a raise in fee each time, then they go up some more too... and all that gets passed to you the consumer. So, anytime Dish can cut their costs it means less increase for you.
> 
> Note, it doesn't mean NO increase... but it definitely means less of an increase.
> 
> Plus... all the Dish customers that have jobs want raises too... so you're asking your boss to pay you more for the work you're already doing... you know that impacts the rest of the company when you get a raise, and if they sell a product then you caused that product to raise in price... so it's all connected.
> 
> Some people act like this stuff happens in a vacuum or something.


Dish's cash flow is roughly 25%.

It would probably be closer to cable's 42% if Charlie quit paying for all his high priced court follies.

I subbed to Dish for local access only for multiple years. 2 years ago it was $10 a month. Last year it went to $16. They increased in October to $22.

Dish currently (TODAY) pays CBS 52 CENTS for re-transmission.

Mind telling me how that increase is justified?


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## SomeRandomIdiot

lparsons21 said:


> Here's the problem for Turner. They don't have much in the contract that is up right now to negotiate over. Most of the channels in that contract have shrinking market share and have competition with nearly identical content to some others
> 
> TCM is the only channel with possibly increased value. The others have reduced value because of their poor showings in market share.
> 
> But the time it is taking is all about waiting for TBS/TNT contracts to come up. These two channels have value, possibly some increased value. Turner has no leverage until this contract expires. That's when the real battle starts.
> 
> If you don't think so, just look at the real lack of shrieking over the loss of the Turner channels that are gone now. A thundering silence outside of here and other forums that cuss and discuss these things. In the general scheme of things this is as much a non-event as I can imagine.
> 
> Sent from my Surface with Windows 8 Pro using Tapatalk


Charlie called Turner removal a "non-event" in today's conference call.


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## lparsons21

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Charlie called Turner removal a "non-event" in today's conference call.


And he's correct at this point in time. That changes when TBS/TNT come into the picture. Those 2 channels have clout and market share.


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## tampa8

RAD said:


> Charlie doesn't seem to have any problems when it comes to raising a monthly fee every now and then. Sorry, just appears two faces when Dish, DIRECTV, telco's and cable companies tell me how they're fighting programmers to keep our rates low but don't have any problems raising fees for their services like STB's or cable modem rentals.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


Poor and old argument. Even if no programmers raised their rates, other factors would likely make DISH have to charge more, but not as much more. Don't Electric and heating bills go up? Transportation costs, labor costs,possibly rent costs, and on and on..... And what about channels that were added this year? Think those were free?


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## tampa8

lparsons21 said:


> And he's correct at this point in time. That changes when TBS/TNT come into the picture. Those 2 channels have clout and market share.


Oh yes, two of the most watched Cable channels.....


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## RAD

tampa8 said:


> Poor and old argument. Even if no programmers raised their rates, other factors would likely make DISH have to charge more, but not as much more. Don't Electric and heating bills go up? Transportation costs, labor costs,possibly rent costs, and on and on..... And what about channels that were added this year? Think those were free?


So then why is it OK for for all those other rate increases but if a content provider says they want more money for their product that's bad. Their electric and heating bills go up. Their transportation, labor, rent, technology costs go up but they're not allowed to ask for more? 
Hey, I agree that unless no costs go up and nobody's getting any raises then yes costs are going to go up. Just don't understand the double standard where when Dish or DIRECTV raise a fee there's a minor amount of b*tching that goes on but when a content provider channels(s) go black because they want an increase then it's those greedy so and so's, how dare they ask for more money.


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## James Long

Stewart Vernon said:


> It has been repeated how slim Dish's profit margins are...





SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Dish's cash flow is roughly 25%.


Cash flow is not profit margin.
Last year (2013) DISH made $4.79 per month per subscriber on an average $80.37 revenue per subscriber.
Their profit worked out to be 5.95% of the average subscriber's bill.

If you think that is excessive feel free to cancel DISH and go to a company like DirecTV.
Last year (2013) DirecTV only made $18.29 per month per subscriber on an average $102.18 revenue per subscriber.
Their profit worked out to be 17.9% of the average subscriber's bill.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> It would probably be closer to cable's 42% if Charlie quit paying for all his high priced court follies.


Funny man. Feel free to research and post how much of DISH's expenses go to legal issues. There have been years where they have taken a major hit over litigation (such as the failed merger with DirecTV and the Tivo decision). Otherwise, "court follies" are not a major part of DISH's spending.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> I subbed to Dish for local access only for multiple years. 2 years ago it was $10 a month. Last year it went to $16. They increased in October to $22.
> 
> Dish currently (TODAY) pays CBS 52 CENTS for re-transmission.
> 
> Mind telling me how that increase is justified?


CBS is not the only channel you receive ... so add some money to the pot to pay other local broadcasters. Then add some money to pay for backhauling your local stations to an uplink site and sending those signals to the satellite. Then add some money to lease or buy satellites. Then add some money for the CSRs and infrastructure at DISH (there are costs to having you as a customer). DISH was probably losing money at $10 per month ... but it is a good "foot in the door" to entice you to subscribe to more channels. The price now includes some profit.


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## Orion9

RAD said:


> Just don't understand the double standard where when Dish or DIRECTV raise a fee there's a minor amount of b*tching that goes on but when a content provider channels(s) go black because they want an increase then it's those greedy so and so's, how dare they ask for more money.


Strange. I've seen many people complaining about Dish and DirecTV prices and many people say they switched between them to get new subscriber discounts, or called and complained and got discounts etc. Or "cut the cord". There's a guy in this thread who already switched to OTA. There's one guy who called and complained and got a discount and then he started talking about how he was going to walk as soon as the discount ended. Oddly enough the discount was called a "loyalty credit".


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## James Long

RAD said:


> So then why is it OK for for all those other rate increases but if a content provider says they want more money for their product that's bad. Their electric and heating bills go up. Their transportation, labor, rent, technology costs go up but they're not allowed to ask for more?


They can ask for more ... but should the content providers expect more? In some cases channels have lost value due to changing programming - yet the owners want an increase at contract time. There is also an issue of how much of an increase each channel deserves. 3% per year? 7%? 10%? A channel with dwindling advertising revenue may want to make up the difference through monthly subscribers. Everybody wants more money.

There is middle ground ... DISH and their content providers will find it. But saying DISH cannot refuse to pay whatever is demanded of them is just as bad as saying content providers can't ask for more. Neither statement is true. Contracts are negotiated, not dictated.


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## Orion9

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> I subbed to Dish for local access only for multiple years. 2 years ago it was $10 a month. Last year it went to $16. They increased in October to $22.
> 
> Dish currently (TODAY) pays CBS 52 CENTS for re-transmission.
> 
> Mind telling me how that increase is justified?


"justified" hmmm... I guess my first semi-flippant answer is that if most customers continue to pay it, then it's "justified".

For a slightly more thoughtful answer, I guess I'll have to go with "not enough information" but here are some thoughts. Back in the 1982 I considered our local cable co's "lifeline cable" package. It was just locals. They didn't advertise it. They didn't want to offer it. They sold it by direct request because the local government that licensed them made them do it. It was $9. According to an inflation calculator that works out to about $21.39 in 2013. (I was surprised.) Back then I don't believe there were any retrans fees.

Doing a little googling, I found someone who said he was paying $13.60 in 2006 which would be ~$16 today. However, I think that was analog and he might also being paying a box rental fee now.

So I don't know if that "justifies" anything but given that the cable companies don't seem to want to sell these packages, and I'm not sure that anyone is forcing Dish to, maybe $22 is what it takes to make it interesting to them.

Also, I know from experience that customer support/overhead costs is often just as much for small customers as larger ones so there is often a point at which there are customers that you really don't need or want. At best sometimes you keep going with them hoping for something better in the future.

There was a time that I was averaging about $0.16/month for long distance phone service. That went on for about a decade and then another company bought them and tacked on a minimum $7 fee to the bill. An increase of 4375%! On the other hand it was still cheaper than what I was paying the previous LD supplier 10 years earlier.

I don't see this package listed on Dish's website so perhaps they don't enjoy this option either. Plus there are often special deals, promotions, loyalty discounts, new customer discounts etc. so I'm not even sure if the original $10 was the "normal" price.

Oh and if every channel in the AT120 had a 52 cent fee, that would amount to more than AT120 sells for. And speaking of "justified" I'm not quite sure how a commercial station justifies asking for money to air its advertising to more people.  (Actually I can think of an "argument" or two that they'd make but that's different than a "justification".)

So, just some thoughts, no real conclusion. I'd say look at your options and go with what's best for you.


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## KyL416

Orion9 said:


> Back in the 1982 I considered our local cable co's "lifeline cable" package. It was just locals. They didn't advertise it. They didn't want to offer it. They sold it by direct request because the local government that licensed them made them do it. It was $9. According to an inflation calculator that works out to about $21.39 in 2013. (I was surprised.) Back then I don't believe there were any retrans fees.


Oddly enough, the basic package on cable goes for about $25 now. Except it now includes things like public access, free religious channels, shopping channels paying your provider, C-SPAN, a local/state government channel, maybe a local news channel run by your cable operator and in some cases former superstations like WGN America and TBS.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> Cash flow is not profit margin.
> Last year (2013) DISH made $4.79 per month per subscriber on an average $80.37 revenue per subscriber.
> Their profit worked out to be 5.95% of the average subscriber's bill.
> 
> If you think that is excessive feel free to cancel DISH and go to a company like DirecTV.
> Last year (2013) DirecTV only made $18.29 per month per subscriber on an average $102.18 revenue per subscriber.
> Their profit worked out to be 17.9% of the average subscriber's bill.
> 
> Funny man. Feel free to research and post how much of DISH's expenses go to legal issues. There have been years where they have taken a major hit over litigation (such as the failed merger with DirecTV and the Tivo decision). Otherwise, "court follies" are not a major part of DISH's spending.
> 
> CBS is not the only channel you receive ... so add some money to the pot to pay other local broadcasters. Then add some money to pay for backhauling your local stations to an uplink site and sending those signals to the satellite. Then add some money to lease or buy satellites. Then add some money for the CSRs and infrastructure at DISH (there are costs to having you as a customer). DISH was probably losing money at $10 per month ... but it is a good "foot in the door" to entice you to subscribe to more channels. The price now includes some profit.


Well, you do know that the reason Dish makes so little is because of the way debt was handled in the past - all falling back on the shoulders of Charlie.

You would also be well advised to see how debt was divided when Charlie spun out his satellite operation from the DBS business.

You also forgot other lawsuits, such as the Voom lawsuit, the DNS lawsuit etc.

As for yours and Orion's response, Dish has never given me an install, receiver a service call or anything else. There were no introductory rates, specials etc. And Bank of America Bill Pay sent them their money every month on the same day, so no CSR interaction was required.

Bottom line, in 24 months, Dish increased the cost 120%, while paying CBS .52 cents TODAY (when the average MVPD pays CBS .86 today).

CBS has the biggest ratings, so the others were most likely lower - however, even if .52 cents x 4 for the big 4, that is still only around $2 per month.

So please, do not try and justify a 120% increase - and if Dish is making so little off it's revenue, Charlie has only to look at himself for running up debt for years so he could take over Lightsquare and other frequencies with that money, instead of paying it off.

BTW, they actually make more than $22 off me, as they of course give me the Shopping Channels and charge QVC/HSN etc for delivering it to me.


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## Athlon646464

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Charlie called Turner removal a "non-event" in today's conference call.


*Update: **Dish Network's Charlie Ergen Calls Loss Of CNN And Turner Nets A "Non-Event"*

(deadline.com/) - Dish Network Chairman Charlie Ergen was in rare form today in his quarterly earnings conference call with analysts and media - especially when asked about his battle with Time Warner's Turner Broadcasting. All of its channels except for TBS and TNT went dark on the No. 2 satellite company on October 21 as a result of a contract dispute. And Ergen says he's prepared to dig in his heels, including doing without CNN which he says is "not a top 10 network anymore. Unless they find the Malaysian plane."...

Full Story Here


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## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> You also forgot other lawsuits, such as the Voom lawsuit, the DNS lawsuit etc.


Not forgotten ... just not relevant. This is not a "list every DISH lawsuit and historical problem" thread. I gave two examples where there were write offs in the quarterly reports. If you would like to compile a complete list and start an "I hate DISH" thread that is your responsibility.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As for yours and Orion's response, Dish has never given me an install, receiver a service call or anything else. There were no introductory rates, specials etc. And Bank of America Bill Pay sent them their money every month on the same day, so no CSR interaction was required.


Use it or not, they were there. No subscriber can sign up for a "no customer service" account. Everyone pays a share of the costs. Acting like your unique example is the way DISH treats all subscribers (a 120% increase for nothing) is deceptive.

That is why I use averages. What the average DISH subscriber pays. Whet the average profit per subscriber is. Not some special case that applies only to few customers.

The bottom line is that your mind was made up before you raised the scenario ... no matter how the costs were explained to you or by who you decided before posting that there is no justification for DISH's actions. Piling on the stereotypical "I hate DISH" complaints such as lawsuits and misstating profits just shows that you were not looking for conversation. You were looking to make a rhetorical potshot at DISH. 



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> BTW, they actually make more than $22 off me, as they of course give me the Shopping Channels and charge QVC/HSN etc for delivering it to me.


No. You are choosing to ignore the costs of DISH providing your service. Perhaps you think everyone else is paying DISH's costs and your payments are pure profit? An honest look at the situation would share the fixed costs across all of their subscribers ... including you.


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## nmetro

This article is pretty sobering, as this dispute will probably run the length of the Viacom dispute that occurred DirecTV.

I do agree CNN is a "has been". 24 News is available from many internet sources; for free; it wasn't that when in the early 1980s when CNN first signed on. Out of the Turner channels it is the costliest to run. Just like ESPN is the costliest for Disney. But, to hold the least expensive channels hostage, to get a higher price for a channel does not win contests with subscribers. In teh scheme of things CNN is not worth paying more for.

Migrating to another carrier is a crap shoot. If Turner returns to DISH, then Turner will do the same with DiecTV, Comcast, et. al. We saw that with CBS and Warner Cable last year; and now, DISH is the next target.

Dropped channels, without getting any credit for them, has become the norm. The carriers claim they are protecting their subscriber, but are they really? They know subscribers jump between carriers; more and more caused by disputes. Unfortunately, for the carriers, consumers are increasingly "cutting the cord". Internet and OTA options are now a viable option.

Mr. Ergen's comments does not help matters and are relics of the 1990s; the pre-digital OTA era.


----------



## shew

nmetro said:


> This article is pretty sobering, as this dispute will probably run the length of the Viacom dispute that occurred DirecTV.
> 
> I do agree CNN is a "has been". 24 News is available from many internet sources; for free; it wasn't that when in the early 1980s when CNN first signed on. Out of the Turner channels it is the costliest to run. Just like ESPN is the costliest for Disney. But, to hold the least expensive channels hostage, to get a higher price for a channel does not win contests with subscribers. In teh scheme of things CNN is not worth paying more for.
> 
> Migrating to another carrier is a crap shoot. If Turner returns to DISH, then Turner will do the same with DiecTV, Comcast, et. al. We saw that with CBS and Warner Cable last year; and now, DISH is the next target.
> 
> Dropped channels, without getting any credit for them, has become the norm. The carriers claim they are protecting their subscriber, but are they really? They know subscribers jump between carriers; more and more caused by disputes. Unfortunately, for the carriers, consumers are increasingly "cutting the cord". Internet and OTA options are now a viable option.
> 
> Mr. Ergen's comments does not help matters and are relics of the 1990s; the pre-digital OTA era.
> 
> I have uverse and in 2010 we lost the hallmark and hallmark movie channel....here we are 2014 still no hallmark channels...but i never watched it so i don't miss it


----------



## tsmacro

Well it was election night last night and if there was any time CNN was going to be missed that was it. I don't seem to be hearing any uproar but to be fair the way that the elections were going last night most people who were tuned in for that kind of news were more likely to be watching Fox News anyway.


----------



## Orion9

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Mind telling me how that increase is justified?





SomeRandomIdiot said:


> So please, do not try and justify


Make up your mind! 

OK admittedly, that's why I quoted "justified" in my response. It's a vague hurdle for people on a web forum, and because the hurdle is vague, it's likely to move to keep the "justification" from happening. But hopefully you could hear some of the ideas and explanations even if you don't accept them as "justifications". Anyway, I wish you luck with your next TV provider.

Hopefully RAD has been reading this sub-thread, as he seemed to be under the impression that people never complain about Dish price increases and yet here is such a complaint right in the same thread.


----------



## RAD

Orion9 said:


> Hopefully RAD has been reading this sub-thread, as he seemed to be under the impression that people never complain about Dish price increases and yet here is such a complaint right in the same thread.


Yes, they complain when prices raise for programming but when there's a Dish impossed fee increase, like they did with the Hopper/Sling recently, not so much of an uprising.


----------



## Orion9

RAD said:


> Yes, they complain when prices raise for programming but when there's a Dish impossed fee increase, like they did with the Hopper/Sling recently, not so much of an uprising.


Well I don't have a Hopper/Sling myself but if they raised the price and there wasn't much complaint, perhaps that means that the people who have them are satisfied, even at the new price. Perhaps the price of that particular option was previously a little low compared to the price/performance ratios of the other options?

Just some ideas. Comparing how people react to the price of entertainment vs hardware is probably a tricky business in any case.


----------



## nmetro

By the way, if DISH is looking to fill Turner slots, or when other providers force a channel drop, maybe they should visit channels like:

Antenna (More recent classic TV)
MeTV (Class TV)
GetTV (classic movies)
ThisTV (Movies more recent)
Bounce (Moveis to black/Hispanic audiences0
Grit TV (movies to Male audience)
Escape (Movies/Series to female audience)
COZI (60s and 70s classic TV)
Qubo (Cartoons)
Decades (starts 1Q 2015) (Programming by decade going back to the 1950s)
ION Life (Movies, series)
V-Me (PBS Instructional)
RetroTV (Classic TV)
Heroes & Icons TV (Superhero programming)
Movies! (classic movies)

Many of these are better than what is is provided from Turner, Viacom and NBC Universal.

Yes, there is getting the retrans rights from broadcasters, but for all we know it would be cheaper to uplink these channels. And, instantly get them to subscribers who live in marketys where these services are not provided.


----------



## dennispap

HERE IS WHAT TURNER HAS TO SAY...

"While there were clearly deal points to get done, they were not the type you would usually go dark over. So it is still unclear to us exactly what this dispute is about. We've been told our networks were taken down because we would not move an expiration date later in the year."

"We've had a long-term relationship with Dish that has been good for both of us. That's one of the reasons we agreed to multiple extensions during this negotiation process and have worked diligently to address their issues. We stayed at the table even after Dish removed our networks from their service and we're hopeful we can get a deal done in the near future."

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/turner-says-its-disappointed-bewildered-dish-assault/2014-11-05?utm_medium=nl&utm_source=internal


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> That site is not referring to cable channels such as CNN/Turner, it is referring to broadcast channels that are carried via retransmission consent laws. Guess who is paying for that website? An organization that believes paying $4-$5 per month in retransmission fees for locals is no problem for pay TV subscribers.
> 
> OK ... now you are accusing DISH Network of lying. It would be fairly simple for CNN/Turner to put out a correction that stated that the contract has not ended. Where is it?
> 
> The contract ended, DISH no longer has permission to carry the channels that are not being carried. The contract for TBS and TNT is separate.
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/21/media/turner-dish-network-dispute/


As I stated days earlier from this post, the contract HAD EXPIRED.....and 2 extensions were given while negotiating.

Dish decided to pull the channels they pulled, even though they were allowed to keep them on via the extensions.

Turner has now done what you wanted on 10/27.....issued the statement confirming that Dish did this as a surprise to them because they would not give Dish an extension on the TBS/TNT contract as well which was expiring later this year.

And then Charlie "Speaking to investors Tuesday, Dish said TNT and Turner will likely come down soon, as well."

I'll expect an apology from you and tampa8, as it can be seen in retrospect I was correct.


----------



## mwdxer

Does anyone know when the TBS/TNT contract comes up to renew? Later this year I have read, well there isn't much of the year left. By the way, some viewers have been able to mirror apps on their android devices and stream CNN on their Roku or watch CNN off the internet. There are also many other sources for electrion coverage. MSNBC and FOX had it, so the coverage was available even though CNN was not on Dish.
But it looks like this dispute will be around for a long time.....How many subs will be dropping Dish, who knows? I don't see the 12,000 lost in the last quarter to be a biggie with the total subs Dish has and who knows how many come and go on the regular basis. The people I know that went off Dish or Direct have been because of the cost. They watch OTA now and sub to Netflix.


----------



## lparsons21

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As I stated days earlier from this post, the contract HAD EXPIRED.....and 2 extensions were given while negotiating.
> 
> Dish decided to pull the channels they pulled, even though they were allowed to keep them on via the extensions.
> 
> Turner has now done what you wanted on 10/27.....issued the statement confirming that Dish did this as a surprise to them because they would not give Dish an extension on the TBS/TNT contract as well which was expiring later this year.
> 
> And then Charlie "Speaking to investors Tuesday, Dish said TNT and Turner will likely come down soon, as well."
> 
> I'll expect an apology from you and tampa8, as it can be seen in retrospect I was correct.


Well, that is certainly one way to look at it. But the reality is that both sides will tell the story they want us to hear. How truthful or complete those stories might be is certainly in question imo.


----------



## tampa8

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As I stated days earlier from this post, the contract HAD EXPIRED.....and 2 extensions were given while negotiating.
> 
> Dish decided to pull the channels they pulled, even though they were allowed to keep them on via the extensions.
> 
> Turner has now done what you wanted on 10/27.....issued the statement confirming that Dish did this as a surprise to them because they would not give Dish an extension on the TBS/TNT contract as well which was expiring later this year.
> 
> And then Charlie "Speaking to investors Tuesday, Dish said TNT and Turner will likely come down soon, as well."
> 
> I'll expect an apology from you and tampa8, as it can be seen in retrospect I was correct.


My answer is about the same as above, you choose to believe Turner.
After the extensions and DISH wanting all the channels to be in one contract Turner would not agree and it is they who no longer gave DISH permission to have the channels. Charlie has used that term before - "taking down" meaning we would not come to an agreement for what was being asked, and the channels were taken down. But he means taken down because Turner would not allow them to remain. He further means DISH is prepared to not have the channels if an agreement can not be reached that DISH thinks is fair.
I would have to believe Turner told DISH, "oh no, go ahead keep the channels even though negotiations have broken off." And that DISH said, "oh no, we don't want them." DISH did in fact do that once, with AMC but that was a personal thing and I among others said DISH was wrong to do it that way. So I am not blind to that possibility, but I don't see that here.

This is very different, there is no animosity by DISH, it's all business. I don't see them taking down Turner channels if Turner is saying you can keep them.


----------



## James Long

RAD said:


> Yes, they complain when prices raise for programming but when there's a Dish impossed fee increase, like they did with the Hopper/Sling recently, not so much of an uprising.


Wasn't that raise for new customers/upgrades only? The people who had the equipment before the slight increase were not affected. Grandfathering goes a long way toward appeasing people. Those not affected may complain over the principle of the matter (such as DirecTV subscribers complaining about DISH increases and vice versa) but the complaints generally come from the people who actually have to pay more.


----------



## RAD

James Long said:


> Wasn't that raise for new customers/upgrades only? The people who had the equipment before the slight increase were not affected. Grandfathering goes a long way toward appeasing people. Those not affected may complain over the principle of the matter (such as DirecTV subscribers complaining about DISH increases and vice versa) but the complaints generally come from the people who actually have to pay more.


IIRC Dish didn't grandfather the monthly lease change on folks that get a Hopper with Sling, when it was the same as the original Hopper, they got hit with an increase.

And I'm not complaining about any price increase Dish does, could care less. I was only commenting that there seems to be a lot more outrage about content provider increases while when Dish increases fees not so much.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As I stated days earlier from this post, the contract HAD EXPIRED.....and 2 extensions were given while negotiating.
> 
> Dish decided to pull the channels they pulled, even though they were allowed to keep them on via the extensions.
> 
> Turner has now done what you wanted on 10/27.....issued the statement confirming that Dish did this as a surprise to them because they would not give Dish an extension on the TBS/TNT contract as well which was expiring later this year.
> 
> And then Charlie "Speaking to investors Tuesday, Dish said TNT and Turner will likely come down soon, as well."[/size]
> 
> I'll expect an apology from you and tampa8, as it can be seen in retrospect I was correct.[/size]


No ... I stated that the contract had expired. Turner stated that the contract had expired. It seems everyone agrees that the contract had expired. My statements remain correct.

There were extensions ... the extensions expired. Turner said: "We've been told our networks were taken down because we would not move an expiration date later in the year."

So did they expect DISH to carry the stations without a contract or extension of the expiration date? Without a carriage contract it is foolish to carry channels. Carriage without a contract leads to the courtroom.

If Turner wanted their channels to remain on DISH they should have agreed to move the expiration date or agreed to the new contract. They say themselves that the negotiations were not that far apart. But Turner would not move the date.


----------



## James Long

RAD said:


> I was only commenting that there seems to be a lot more outrage about content provider increases while when Dish increases fees not so much.


The big change a few years ago lit up the forums ... $20 receiver fees, even for owned receivers. It makes the Hopper fees look cheap.


----------



## BurgEnder

I get most of those OTA now. If I weren't such a sports fan, I'd be completely OTA by now.


----------



## KG4KBU

They can also add blue highways tv, i24 news, France 24, or BBC world


----------



## mwdxer

If this is the case that Dish removed the Turner channels, I am not happy to hear that. What would be wrong in letting them run until a new contract could be done? The longer this goes on, the more subs Direct TV or Cable will get. I am getting calls from Charter Cable now trying to get me to switch. I have Charter for high speed, but I do not need their TV service. TCM is the only one of the mix I miss at all.


----------



## inkahauts

James Long said:


> .......
> 
> So did they expect DISH to carry the stations without a contract or extension of the expiration date? Without a carriage contract it is foolish to carry channels. Carriage without a contract leads to the courtroom .......


No it doesn't. In fact it almost never does. In fact can you name one time when it did? Directv carried HBO for months if not over a year with no contract. Whenever they do that they agree to just keep paying the same while they are moving along negotiations.

Heck dish did just that with Disney earlier this year! This is dish trying to strong arm turner sooner to a better deal before they can use tnt too.

While i completely disagree with this tacit that dish is using I get it and hope they get what they are after price wise. But since they just went ages without a contract from Disney and didn't need to resort to this kind of thing I don't get why they think they need to for turner. I'll bet turner never would have yanked tnt off their air. Such a joke the way Charlie is going about this.


----------



## James Long

inkahauts said:


> No it doesn't. In fact it almost never does. In fact can you name one time when it did? Directv carried HBO for months if not over a year with no contract. Whenever they do that they agree to just keep paying the same while they are moving along negotiations.


Try reading what you quoted:


James Long said:


> .......
> So did they expect DISH to carry the stations without a contract or extension of the expiration date? Without a carriage contract it is foolish to carry channels. Carriage without a contract leads to the courtroom .......


In the cases you mentioned DirecTV and DISH had an extension. In the case with Turner, Turner claims DISH wanted an extension of the date. Why Turner did not agree to an extension is not explained.

And if you want an example of carrying stations without a contract leading to court look back to when DISH added ESPNEWS, Disney Channel, ABC Family and Disney XD in 2008. DISH added the channels in HD without a contract or other permission. It ended up in court. When the court case was resolved DISH lost and the court awarded damages against DISH for carrying the HD channels. All is well now thanks to this year's contract, but carrying channels without permission is not a good idea.

Read the whole post. Thanks!


----------



## inkahauts

No, they didn't have an extension in writing from anything i have ever read.... they just said extend paying the way you do now.. no contract in place...

But that is arbitrary to the point the way I read the statements from dish and turner....

What I read sounds like turner didn't say they would extend right now the window for negotiating for tnt, so they pulled the plug on the other channels in retaliation for not being given an extension for tnt and tbs that have not even expired yet. That is classes really, but then so many stations are beyond classes, like the weather channel... so i guess Charlie figures why not play with the same tactics.

And its classesless because its rude to his customers when he could have those channels on while negotiating still and not have the rates go up for now... and now his customers are paying the same for less so Charlie can save a few bucks to put towards a rate increase that he will eventually agree too...


----------



## James Long

inkahauts said:


> No, they didn't have an extension in writing from anything i have ever read.... they just said extend paying the way you do now.. no contract in place...


Verbal contracts/agreements are only worth the paper they are written on. It should be simple to get the verbal agreement in writing ... if both parties (including Turner) are willing.



inkahauts said:


> What I read sounds like turner didn't say they would extend right now the window for negotiating for tnt, so they pulled the plug on the other channels in retaliation for not being given an extension for tnt and tbs that have not even expired yet.


If you have a first hand source for what you read (not someone who said someone said via a chain of blogs and websites) I'd be interested in reading that too. It isn't spelled out that clearly in the quoted article.


----------



## James Long

inkahauts said:


> and now his customers are paying the same for less so Charlie can save a few bucks to put towards a rate increase that he will eventually agree too...


"According to Marci Ryvicker, a Wells Fargo Securities analyst, Dish pays about $265 million a year for the blacked out channels, or about $1.57 per subscriber. If the channels were dark on in Dish's 14.1 million homes for a year, it would cut Time Warner's earnings by about 1 percent."

http://www.fiercecable.com/story/ergen-digging-his-heels-now-expendable-cnn-report-says/2014-10-22


----------



## harsh

RAD said:


> So then why is it OK for for all those other rate increases but if a content provider says they want more money for their product that's bad.


It becomes okay when the appeal of the content drops to a point (presumably because spending on good content has gone away) that the channels have little value.

When you can comfortably say that half of the channels in a suite have little appeal, the content people need to start offing channels, not asking for more money. Viacom needs to learn this lesson sooner than later.


----------



## lparsons21

harsh said:


> It becomes okay when the appeal of the content drops to a point (presumably because spending on good content has gone away) that the channels have little value.
> 
> When you can comfortably say that half of the channels in a suite have little appeal, the content people need to start offing channels, not asking for more money. Viacom needs to learn this lesson sooner than later.


As does Turner.

It appears that they actually do realize that without TBS/TNT being in the mix, the other channels have little interest or clout in the market. IMO, without TBS/TNT in the mix, Turner should be getting LESS for the rest since they bring little to the table, and certainly no increased value.


----------



## nmetro

I think the viewers who like TCM, Cartoon Network, Adult Swim, CNN and Boomerang may disagree with this assessment. Only HN and TruTV are the real busts here.

History, H2, Discover, National Geographic, The Learning Channel, and a number of others, have become nothing more than "reality channels"

A&E went from what was CBS Cable to Arts to Art&Entertainment to nothing more than reruns and reality. When it started it was Classical Concerts, Opera and the like.

SyFy, went from classic Science Fiction to mostly reality, D movies and a few series worth watching. Chiller is actually much better.

he list goes on. But, for the few channels in the Turner package they are much better than what Viacom, NBC Universal, and FOX offer.



lparsons21 said:


> As does Turner.
> 
> It appears that they actually do realize that without TBS/TNT being in the mix, the other channels have little interest or clout in the market. IMO, without TBS/TNT in the mix, Turner should be getting LESS for the rest since they bring little to the table, and certainly no increased value.


----------



## fudpucker

At the end of the day, well, year (2013) Dish brought in $13.9 Billion, up from $13.2 Billion in 2012. Their net income from that was about $807 Million, up from $637 Million in 2012. That's a pretty nice net income. Profit margins for Dish vary, with some highs and lows being outliers for specific accounting issues in those months, but most months they range from about 6 - 8%. That's pretty good. It's about the same as Toyota, Apple, which is considered a profit machine, is around 20%. G.E. is also considered a nice earner when you are building portfolios, they are around 7% to 9%. Target, on the other hand, runs around 2 to 4%. Nike does pretty well, they are slightly above Dish at around 8-8% on average.


----------



## Orion9

Speaking of profit machines, back when the affordable care act kicked in, it put a 20% profit max on health insurance companies and made that retroactive to the previous year. As a result, my insurance company was forced to send me a check for about 18% of that years' premiums. So back then at least, you could make 38% in the health insurance business. I wonder how other forms of insurance stack up. My guess would be that the extended warranty business is highly profitable.

Back when I was in the semiconductor business, we targeted 10%, and sometimes when the economy was roaring, we beat that by quite a bit.


----------



## lparsons21

nmetro said:


> I think the viewers who like TCM, Cartoon Network, Adult Swim, CNN and Boomerang may disagree with this assessment. Only HN and TruTV are the real busts here.


I'm sure the viewers of those channels would disagree with me. But in the grand scheme of things they have small viewership, which should mean they are worth less.

Of course the most likely scenario is that they will all return at some point in time, at a higher price, which means a higher sat bill. And just as 'of course', the viewers of those channels will most likely be here complaining about how the cost is getting out of hand.

Every year or thereabouts, it is wash-rinse-repeat, just like clockwork.

Like many others here, I am looking seriously at my sat bill and trying to decide if subbing to T200 is worth the price just to get AMC for Doctor Who primarily as an example.

Looking at other channels, especially premiums really makes me wonder how dumb it seems to pay that much for the very few shows/events they offer.


----------



## Orion9

lparsons21 said:


> Like many others here, I am looking seriously at my sat bill and trying to decide if subbing to T200 is worth the price just to get AMC for Doctor Who primarily as an example.


Our decision was AT120 and Doctor Who on Blu-rays. If you've been a fan of Doctor Who since the old days, Doctor Who on Blu-rays sounds almost like a contradiction in terms but it's great!


----------



## satcrazy

nmetro said:


> I think the viewers who like TCM, Cartoon Network, Adult Swim, CNN and Boomerang may disagree with this assessment. Only HN and TruTV are the real busts here.
> 
> History, H2, Discover, National Geographic, The Learning Channel, and a number of others, have become nothing more than "reality channels"
> 
> A&E went from what was CBS Cable to Arts to Art&Entertainment to nothing more than reruns and reality. When it started it was Classical Concerts, Opera and the like.
> 
> SyFy, went from classic Science Fiction to mostly reality, D movies and a few series worth watching. Chiller is actually much better.
> 
> he list goes on. But, for the few channels in the Turner package they are much better than what Viacom, NBC Universal, and FOX offer.


FX has stepped up their game,and surpasses anything tbs or tnt [ in most cases] has to offer.[ I don't do roundball...]

Nat geo and nat geo wild is more often than not more interesting than other content offered.

Just my 2 cents

As a side note, TBS edits the movies they show way too much for content, whereas IFC never does. That's a deal breaker for me.


----------



## epokopac

"Like many others here, I am looking seriously at my sat bill and trying to decide if subbing to T200 is worth the price just to get AMC for Doctor Who primarily as an example."

BBC America for Doctor Who; AMC for The Walking Dead.


----------



## lparsons21

What can I say, I'm old and forget a lot!! 


Sent from my Surface with Windows 8 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## harsh

lparsons21 said:


> As does Turner.


I used Viacom as I figured I'd get less push-back from the cartoon crowd.

I would also point out that Charlie's posturing is an oft-used technique during negotiations to show the other side how relatively unimportant they are.


----------



## harsh

nmetro said:


> History, H2, Discover, National Geographic, The Learning Channel, and a number of others, have become nothing more than "reality channels"


I take exception to having H2 in this list. It is where most of History's better programming has migrated to. It may not be awesome, but it is orders of magnitude better than History.


----------



## satcrazy

I could be wrong, but it seems to me there's a lot less angry people with the Turner channel dispute than there were with the AMC contract.

I'm glad Dish settled that one, but Turner's?

I don't really miss it, well maybe TCM just a little.


----------



## bluegras

i really hope these disputes get settiled i am getting tried of this fighting i know my bill will be going up in feb i understand that.


----------



## Chihuahua

The only loss to me is *Turner Classic Movies*.


----------



## camo

Any chance directv will drop Turner also? I'm all in if they do.


----------



## comizzou573

This dispute is annoying, the transponders are all missed up for hawaii. The hd channels are coming in on 200 and now i have to go to 5000 range to instead just typing 200 just to go to cnn hd.


----------



## fudpucker

camo said:


> Any chance directv will drop Turner also? I'm all in if they do.


No discussions about Directv dropping them.


----------



## nmetro

+1



Chihuahua said:


> The only loss to me is *Turner Classic Movies*.


----------



## mwdxer

Who knows if Direct will have an issue with Turner, but it depends on how much Direct is willing to pay.


----------



## acostapimps

camo said:


> Any chance directv will drop Turner also? I'm all in if they do.


No but AMC probably but contract won't end until end of the year, even though they already gave the heads up to customers with on screen message.

But they'll probably have a deal reached by then.


----------



## James Long

comizzou573 said:


> This dispute is annoying, the transponders are all missed up for hawaii. The hd channels are coming in on 200 and now i have to go to 5000 range to instead just typing 200 just to go to cnn hd.


CNN is not currently carried on DISH, in SD or HD. What are you seeing? Does it have the MSNBC logo in the corner?


----------



## Willh

update from Dish on the Dish Stands For You site that was posted at 5:28 PM on Friday:


> We sincerely appreciate your loyalty - thank you for staying with us as we work to reach a fair and reasonable agreement with Turner.


----------



## Paul Secic

harsh said:


> I take exception to having H2 in this list. It is where most of History's better programming has migrated to. It may not be awesome, but it is orders of magnitude better than History.


I like History Channel.


----------



## Dude111

Don M said:


> I hope this is resolved soon


Yes if the networks will back down on wanting MORE MONEY for crap IM SURE IT WILL!!!!!!

I dont blame Dish,DirecTV,time warner,etc..... for dropping these networks when the quality of programming is aweful YET THE PRICE KEEPS GOING UP!!

Does anyone blame them??


----------



## MikeInSeattle

Turner Classic Movies is the only one of these that matters to me. It is a part of my viewing every bit as much as HBO and the rest of the pay channels, and I would pay to see it. CNN and the other "news" channels are a joke. The kids' stuff isn't for me, but that's just me..

Each side can blame the other and we can take sides and achieve nothing. All that is going on here is we get screwed for profit. If screwing us weren't profitable, they wouldn't be doing it.

I'm exploring my digital cable options, Streaming options with Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, et al, appear to be the future and I anticipate being able to get value equal to or better than Dish from those options + OTA, And it will be a great pleasure to turn off Dish after 15 years. And I won't have to put up with their bundling all the shopping channels and "news" channels, and all the other garbage that I never watch with the little bit that I do watch.

If Dish and Turner gave a crap about us, they would make a deal. Now. There isn't a better lesson than this one that business is not on your side. They are their side and they don't care about you one little bit. Period.

And if you want to be able to get your streaming choices in the future and not those of some walking and talking POS like we have in front of us now, support net neutrality. We are better off putting our efforts there. Let Dish go its merry way.


----------



## Wilf

FWIW, CBS now has a streaming news channel which is free (with ads). At present, it seems to be a bit classier than the other news channels.


----------



## fudpucker

I wonder how many channels the average Dish and Directv viewer actually watches? My package with Dish and now Directv is around 200 channels, but if I make a "Favorites" with just the channels I actually watch, it is 44. Of those, about 10 are sports channels - the various ESPNs (I watch ESPNu now that it is in HD on DTV) and Fox Sports channel and NBC sports and my regionals. And of the 44, I included probably 10 or more that I only watch once in a while, as in when nothing is on the other channels and I'm just browsing. And some of those are all the home improvement channels my wife watches.

But if I was able to buy a la carte, my package would include 50 channels at the absolute most.


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## Orion9

MikeInSeattle said:


> If Dish and Turner gave a crap about us, they would make a deal. Now. There isn't a better lesson than this one that business is not on your side.


What deal? $1000/month/subscriber? $0.05/month/subscriber? You're saying any deal whatsoever means "they" (both of them?) care about us?



MikeInSeattle said:


> And it will be a great pleasure to turn off Dish after 15 years.


Should Dish _still_ care about you?


----------



## satcrazy

fudpucker said:


> I wonder how many channels the average Dish and Directv viewer actually watches? My package with Dish and now Directv is around 200 channels, but if I make a "Favorites" with just the channels I actually watch, it is 44. Of those, about 10 are sports channels - the various ESPNs (I watch ESPNu now that it is in HD on DTV) and Fox Sports channel and NBC sports and my regionals. And of the 44, I included probably 10 or more that I only watch once in a while, as in when nothing is on the other channels and I'm just browsing. And some of those are all the home improvement channels my wife watches.
> 
> But if I was able to buy a la carte, my package would include 50 channels at the absolute most.


 Well, as all the mods will tell you, ala carte is ala out of the question.

I average less than 50 [ in my fav list] and I sub the 250 package. I rarely go outside my list.

That appears to be 1/5th of the package.

They've got you, no matter what.

if you're going to tell me to jump ship, that's not an option right now as my internet speed is crap. It may change in the future.


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## tampa8

MikeInSeattle said:


> Turner Classic Movies is the only one of these that matters to me. It is a part of my viewing every bit as much as HBO and the rest of the pay channels, and I would pay to see it. CNN and the other "news" channels are a joke. The kids' stuff isn't for me, but that's just me..
> 
> Each side can blame the other and we can take sides and achieve nothing. All that is going on here is we get screwed for profit. If screwing us weren't profitable, they wouldn't be doing it.
> 
> I'm exploring my digital cable options, Streaming options with Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, et al, appear to be the future and I anticipate being able to get value equal to or better than Dish from those options + OTA, And it will be a great pleasure to turn off Dish after 15 years. And I won't have to put up with their bundling all the shopping channels and "news" channels, and all the other garbage that I never watch with the little bit that I do watch.
> 
> If Dish and Turner gave a crap about us, they would make a deal. Now. There isn't a better lesson than this one that business is not on your side. They are their side and they don't care about you one little bit. Period.
> 
> And if you want to be able to get your streaming choices in the future and not those of some walking and talking POS like we have in front of us now, support net neutrality. We are better off putting our efforts there. Let Dish go its merry way.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Lmao. Profit is what allows you to watch most anything you do on TV. And Lmao even more that you feel it should be resolved now, and having the dispute is somehow evidence neither cares. You complain about cost, but want this settled no matter the cost? Really?
> Btw the shopping channels pay to be on DISH, as do some other channels. You should be glad they are there.
> 
> This is an honest dispute that needs to be played out. Turner spent big dollars to add sports, that and generally higher costs for everything they want an increase. DISH feels (And for this point they are correct) the channels in the contract especially CNN and HLN have lost hundreds of thousands of viewers and don't fee they should pay (apparently) whatever is being asked.


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## comizzou573

James Long said:


> CNN is not currently carried on DISH, in SD or HD. What are you seeing? Does it have the MSNBC logo in the corner?


Yes when CNN was available, it carried in both SD and HD.


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## James Long

comizzou573 said:


> This dispute is annoying, the transponders are all missed up for hawaii. The hd channels are coming in on 200 and now i have to go to 5000 range to instead just typing 200 just to go to cnn hd.





comizzou573 said:


> Yes when CNN was available, it carried in both SD and HD.


Just to be clear ... you are not currently getting CNN in HD or SD.

Channel 200 "CNEWS" is showing MSNBC's HD and SD feeds, with an EPG stating "CNN was removed by Turner".
This applies to channel 200 (SD) and channel 9436 (HD mapped to 200) ... these two channels are in free preview.
MSNBC as "CNEWS" is also on 4470, 4928 and 5029 in Puerto Rico and 5551 in Alaska/Hawaii. The Peurto Rico and Alaska/Hawaii feeds are not in free preview.

You should be able to get "CNEWS" on channel 200 (SD or HD mapped down) regardless of location. The feed is MSNBC.

BTW: Al Jazeera America is in free preview on channel 201, The Blaze is in free preview on channel 202. The regular channel numbers (215 and 212) are not in free preview. DISH has also placed the ConUS (not PR/AK/HI) feed of MSNBC HD in free preview.


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## mwdxer

Interesting, some complain about Dish losing CNN and TCM and want to jump ship. However, many also do not want to pay more for their channels. There is no way to have both. Turner sure is not going to drop their prices, unless they are totally forced to do so and Dish does not want to spend so much more and have to raise the prices to the consumer. So we wait it out.


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## comizzou573

James Long said:


> Just to be clear ... you are not currently getting CNN in HD or SD.
> 
> Channel 200 "CNEWS" is showing MSNBC's HD and SD feeds, with an EPG stating "CNN was removed by Turner".
> This applies to channel 200 (SD) and channel 9436 (HD mapped to 200) ... these two channels are in free preview.
> MSNBC as "CNEWS" is also on 4470, 4928 and 5029 in Puerto Rico and 5551 in Alaska/Hawaii. The Peurto Rico and Alaska/Hawaii feeds are not in free preview.
> 
> You should be able to get "CNEWS" on channel 200 (SD or HD mapped down) regardless of location. The feed is MSNBC.
> 
> BTW: Al Jazeera America is in free preview on channel 201, The Blaze is in free preview on channel 202. The regular channel numbers (215 and 212) are not in free preview. DISH has also placed the ConUS (not PR/AK/HI) feed of MSNBC HD in free preview.


If I goto channel 200 HD, it redirects me to 200 SD. In order for me to goto 200 HD, I have to go to channel 5551. Before the dispute I could just go to channel 200 HD, these 5551-5556 are new channels showing since the dispute began with turner. Is this temporary until the dispute is over?


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## James Long

satcrazy said:


> Well, as all the mods will tell you, ala carte is ala out of the question.


Just to be clear, we are sharing our own opinion of a la carte ... not speaking as moderators ... when we speak about the issue.


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## James Long

comizzou573 said:


> If I goto channel 200 HD, it redirects me to 200 SD. In order for me to goto 200 HD, I have to go to channel 5551. Before the dispute I could just go to channel 200 HD, these 5551-5556 are new channels showing since the dispute began with turner. Is this temporary until the dispute is over?


Odd ... the 5551-5559 channels have mapdowns. Perhaps having 9436 in preview without any regional flags is confusing your receiver. Your selection of 200 is going to 9436 ... which is not visible on your dish so your receiver jumps to the SD version.

Does selecting 209 have the same behavior (selecting the SD instead of the HD)?


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## comizzou573

Same thing with 209, I have go to 5498 for msnbc hd. This all started since the dispute.


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## James Long

It sounds like having the ConUS channels in preview but not regionally blocked is messing things up.


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## comizzou573

I have a hopper w/sling, and this issue started to occur since the Turner dispute been going on. I have the everything pack, before when I used to go to 200 HD it would go there without any problems. Now everytime I enter 200 HD goes 200 SD, and the source channel for 200 HD is showing on the program guide as well which is channel 5551.

It doesn't only do this for that channel now it does this for any source channel showing in the 5000s and 9000s range in Hawaii on the 129 sat. I did a check switch, system status check, and everything is all good. I just can`t goto 200 HD anymore (transponder 4 sat 129). I have to enter 5551 (transponder 4 sat 129) to watch that channel in HD now. This is really annoying me, I even called the retailers in my area I confirmed that they are using a hopper as well. I asked them to look at their receiver and channel 5551 is not showing in their guide at all they said.


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## nmetro

CBS CEO speaks about DISH dispute with Turner, and the potential fro CBS following suit.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/leslie-moonves-discusses-dish-carriage-747777

Looks like CBS owned and operated stations could go 1 December, if DIsh and CBS doesn't reach an agreement.


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## mwdxer

Funny, I checked both 200 and 209 and both MSNBC spots are in HD. I have the 211k receiver. Is it only on some receivers then. I don't see any issue here.


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## comizzou573

For me I have to go to channel 5551 HD, I can't go to channel 200 HD. If I goto 200 HD it says "signal loss on HD channel, tuning to SD equivalent."


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## comizzou573

So I finally found what transponder 200 HD is showing on my receiver. I did this by going to dish anywhere and tuning to channel 200 HD. I then went to my tv to join the tuner 3, and had enough time to go check the signal strength, before the "signal loss on HD channel, tuning to SD equivalent. Channel 200 HD is coming in on sat 129 tp 13, can anyone confirm this on receiver? Thanks everyone for their support btw : )


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## James Long

comizzou573 said:


> So I finally found what transponder 200 HD is showing on my receiver. I did this by going to dish anywhere and tuning to channel 200 HD. I then went to my tv to join the tuner 3, and had enough time to go check the signal strength, before the "signal loss on HD channel, tuning to SD equivalent. Channel 200 HD is coming in on sat 129 tp 13, can anyone confirm this on receiver? Thanks everyone for their support btw : )


Yep ... your receiver is attempting to tune the "free preview" version of 200 HD (9436). Since you can't see that transponder in Hawaii (the footprint is ConUS) your receiver falls back to the SD version. DISH needs to add the regional encoding to the free preview channels so your receiver does not see them.

When not in free preview this is not a problem as people in AK/HI/PR are not authorized to see 9436. But placing the channel in free preview opens the channel to all. Including people who cannot receive that ConUS signal.


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## comizzou573

Thanks James, I appreciate. I was looking on your website those, I didnt see a transponder 13 for 129 those?


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## nmetro

Latest on the Turner - Dish Dispute:

According to this, Turner wants more for CNN:

http://www.ibtimes.com/dish-network-vs-turner-broadcasting-dispute-hinges-cnn-value-cable-news-1722725

And Dish is not willing to pay more for a channel that is losing ratings.

But, DIsh may have the upper hand in this, according to the article, because CNN is a shell of its former self.

Sort of like Weather Channels and DirectTV dispute, where The Weather Channels is also a shell of its former self and wanted more money to carry it. DirecTVs answer, Weather Nation for a while.

So, in this case, Turner pulled 6 popular or semi-popular channels to get more for CNN. Why? It costs more money to pay talking heads than to run cartoons, movies and syndicated programming.

The article says they are "negotiating" and subscribers are "frustrated". Meanwhile, CNN lost 14 million potential subscribers, while this goes into its third week.


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## James Long

nmetro said:


> Sort of like Weather Channels and DirectTV dispute, where The Weather Channels is also a shell of its former self and wanted more money to carry it. DirecTVs answer, Weather Nation for a while.


Does CNN have a corporate friend like Hilton to come in and convince DISH to restore CNN and other Turner channels?

IIRC DirecTV was done with negotiating with TWC (especially with the public attacks and FCC complaints TWC launched against DirecTV after their channel was replaced). But Hilton wanting TWC in their hotels and resorts put pressure on DirecTV to restore the channel lest they lose a major corporate account.

In many ways TWC and CNN are the same ... they are both decades old original cable channels that go back to a time where TWC was the one and only weather channel and CNN was the one and only cable news network. They are virtually the Xerox and Band-Aid of television channels. Sure people Xerox documents on Ricoh or Canon copiers (and other brands) and use many brands of adhesive bandages - but when looking for weather or news TWC and CNN are the go to channels.

Both channels have a following among people who do not normally watch cable weather or news. People who watch Fox News or MSNBC all the time are likely to keep that habit when news breaks (and if they are disappointed in the coverage then look for another channel). But people who do not watch the news all the time spike CNN's ratings every time news breaks. CNN has a large following among people who do not watch the news.

What would a cable or satellite system be without TWC? Or CNN? Or ESPN? Some channels are simply expected to be there.

DISH and Turner will work out their differences ... but for now the "experiment" continues. DISH is a company that doesn't carry CNN. Since most people (including DISH and Turner) see that as temporary we don't know if not carrying CNN long term would make a difference or not. But it is an interesting question about the marketplace and the state of the industry when it comes to certain channels being "must have" channels.


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## James Long

nmetro said:


> The article says they are "negotiating" and subscribers are "frustrated". Meanwhile, CNN lost 14 million potential subscribers, while this goes into its third week.


*CNN ratings plummet to historic low in primetime slot*

CNN's ratings hit a record low Monday night during the vaunted 9 p.m. slot once held by legendary Larry King. Not only did the network come in fourth among the cable news channels, it had its lowest number of viewers in nearly a quarter of a century.

During Monday's second live hour of Anderson Cooper's show AC360, CNN drew 181,000 total viewers, of whom 53,000 were in the all-important 25- to 54-year-old demographic, according to Nielsen.

That makes the primetime slot "the lowest for the time period since at least Oct. 1, 1991," TV Newser noted, which is "as far back as Nielsen electronic records go."

http://rt.com/usa/204975-cnn-ratings-plummet-ac360/

[Note: This article may be read as biased as it is published by RT (Russia Today) and promotes RT as the new home of Larry King.]


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## satcrazy

nmetro said:


> Latest on the Turner - Dish Dispute:
> 
> According to this, Turner wants more for CNN:
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/dish-network-vs-turner-broadcasting-dispute-hinges-cnn-value-cable-news-1722725
> 
> And Dish is not willing to pay more for a channel that is losing ratings.
> 
> But, DIsh may have the upper hand in this, according to the article, because CNN is a shell of its former self.
> 
> Sort of like Weather Channels and DirectTV dispute, where The Weather Channels is also a shell of its former self and wanted more money to carry it. DirecTVs answer, Weather Nation for a while.
> 
> So, in this case, Turner pulled 6 popular or semi-popular channels to get more for CNN. Why? It costs more money to pay talking heads than to run cartoons, movies and syndicated programming.
> 
> The article says they are "negotiating" and subscribers are "frustrated". Meanwhile, CNN lost 14 million potential subscribers, while this goes into its third week.


I remember reading a lot of posts during the Direct/TWC dispute, people were fed up with the reality show venue TWC had gone to, and were getting accustomed to "Weather nation", and liking it.

I could be mistaken, but TWC indicated it would put less emphasis on reality programming and more on the actual weather.

Ah, promises, promises. It sure doesn't look different to me.

Does Direct still carry weather nation? I wonder how many people stuck with WN even after TWC was re-instated?

Why doesn't examples like this and ratings drop shake up a channel's venue? Not all people are sheeple.


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## AntAltMike

James Long said:


> *CNN ratings plummet to historic low in primetime slot*
> 
> CNN's ratings hit a record low Monday night during the vaunted 9 p.m. slot once held by legendary Larry King.
> 
> [Note: This article may be read as biased as it is published by RT (Russia Today) and promotes RT as the new home of Larry King.]


Heeeeeers Larry!


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## AntAltMike

I went searching for Russia Today's Nielsen ratings, but was stymied by a spate of links to three and four year old articles commenting that while Russia Today leads the sub-BBC pack of foreign new channels, all their ratings were below the measurability threshold, but now it looks like Russia Today's, "babes bashing capitalism" strategy is working.

This article from late January says that Russia Today was drawing 6.5 times what Al Jazeera was, and since I had seen numbers of 17,000 viewers for Al Jazeera last November and 14,000 recently, then 6.5 times that range gets Russia Today over 100,000 on the average, meaning that the new Larry King show may well be cutting substantially into CNN's 9:00 PM viewership.

[background=#ffffff][/background]

MEDIA
Foreign News Channels Drawing U.S. Viewers
Haider Rizyi

*NEW YORK, 29 Jan (IPS) - Television viewers in the United States seeking international news are starting to switch over to foreign channels to learn what is happening in the outside world, media watchers here say. *

"They are comparable to CNN," said Steve Randall, about television news channels such as Russia Today, Al Jazeera, CCTV of China, and the Press TV of Iran, which are now being watched by millions of people in the United States via cable and dish networks.

According to a survey by Nielsen Media Research, many people in Washington, DC now turn to Al Jazeera, Deutsche Welle, France 24, Euronews, and China Central Television to get their foreign news.

However, Russia Today easily led the pack, with a daily audience over 6.5 times bigger than that of Al Jazeera English, the second most popular source of TV news among foreign broadcasters in the U.S. after BBC... (more: http://ipsnorthamerica.net/news.php?idnews=2815


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## KyL416

satcrazy said:


> Does Direct still carry weather nation? I wonder how many people stuck with WN even after TWC was re-instated?


Yes WeatherNation is still available on channel 361. Also after it returned TWC was demoted to Choice and higher while people with Select and Entertainment only get WeatherNation.


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## mwdxer

The Russia Today Documentry Channel is a good one. I wish Dish carried that. It also is in English. There are so many English News and Entertainment channels out there from around the World. Most stream or are FTA with a big dish. I wonder if we have them, what the CNN ratings would be then? France 24, DWTV(Germany), Sky News (UK), Euro News (Belguim), NHK (Japan), Arirang (Korea), Press News (Iran), to name a few.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I thought I remembered hearing that a couple of years ago CNN had let go a bunch of investigative reporters... I might be imagining this, but I swear I read it... in relation to the HBO show "The Newsroom" because they hired some of those reporters to help them with their show... because it made for the funny aside that a fake news drama on HBO was hiring more investigative reporters than a real news channel!

I say this not to provoke a political discussion... but as anecdotal evidence of why CNN is no longer the leader in cable/satellite news it once was... and hence why I can't side with Turner wanting more money for it when clearly they aren't willing to put the money into the channel themselves!


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## nmetro

DISH does carry RT, on channel 290. I do not know what package it is in, but I have AT250.



mwdxer said:


> The Russia Today Documentry Channel is a good one. I wish Dish carried that. It also is in English. There are so many English News and Entertainment channels out there from around the World. Most stream or are FTA with a big dish. I wonder if we have them, what the CNN ratings would be then? France 24, DWTV(Germany), Sky News (UK), Euro News (Belguim), NHK (Japan), Arirang (Korea), Press News (Iran), to name a few.


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## KyL416

RT and the RT Documentary Channel are different channels.


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## James Long

Stewart Vernon said:


> I thought I remembered hearing that a couple of years ago CNN had let go a bunch of investigative reporters...


CNN laid off about 40 journalists in January ... probably more before and after. I would not class them all as investigative reporters. Many of them were stringers. The concept was that CNN could get the news from viewer videos and other sources and didn't need so many people on the permanent payroll.



Stewart Vernon said:


> ... it made for the funny aside that a fake news drama on HBO was hiring more investigative reporters than a real news channel!


Ask Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert how well fake news works in today's world.


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## maartena

All three American "news" channels are no longer news channels. They are political propaganda machines for whatever political side they represent. My gym has Dish for their TV's so they only show Fox News and MSNBC, and I swear while I was working out this morning, Fox was reporting on how Obamacare was evil for 20 minutes straight, and MSNBC was reporting strategies for Obama facing a Republican congress. Meanwhile, at the very same time, Fox Business News was trying to explain the public how Obama's immigration strategy was flawed.

I listen to my own music while at the gym, but always watch the closed-captions for the news networks.... and it's the same every day, and I go, and i go at different times throughout the day.

CNN once was a news channel, instrumental in bringing international news. They had boots on the ground during the first gulf war in Baghdad, which was unprecedented. We all watched in awe while Peter Arnett reported from his hotel balcony while anti-aircraft fire was firing on US war planes. Sure, if there is something BIG going on they will still be there, but reporting the news..... really has become 2nd to broadcasting political propaganda.

If you want proper news, you'll have to find it for yourself online. Because on television, it is all coloured red or blue.


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## dough_boy747

who needs themm give me METV LOL>* :grin: *


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## acostapimps

Even though I don't watch CNN unless it's a major breaking news, I'm glad they got rid of Piers Morgan
especially when he debated with a passion about gun control to gun supporters, It was annoying hearing him talk over every guest
Only thing useful he did on CNN was the coverage of Princess Kate's wedding which was minimal at best

Larry King's absence is the demise of CNN, that and also political bias and tabloid unnecessary news.


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## MysteryMan

acostapimps said:


> Even though I don't watch CNN unless it's a major breaking news, I'm glad they got rid of Piers Morgan
> especially when he debated with a passion about gun control to gun supporters, It was annoying hearing him talk over every guest
> Only thing useful he did on CNN was the coverage of Princess Kate's wedding which was minimal at best
> 
> Larry King's absence is the demise of CNN, that and also political bias and tabloid unnecessary news.


CNN's demise came when they changed from simply reporting the news to sensationalizing the news.


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## satcrazy

KyL416 said:


> Yes WeatherNation is still available on channel 361. Also after it returned TWC was demoted to Choice and higher while people with Select and Entertainment only get WeatherNation.


Interesting.

Perhaps Dish should do the same with this dispute.

Include in a high end package that fewer sub to.


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## James Long

MysteryMan said:


> CNN's demise came when they changed from simply reporting the news to sensationalizing the news.


Sensationalizing was CNN's response to their demise. They went from being the only one for cable news to having competition. As the competition worked to beat CNN the competition began to infuse their news with sensational coverage. CNN's reaction was to join them ... turning HLN into E! and CNN into yet another shouting match news channel.


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## AntAltMike

Back in the 1980s, one Boston TV station hired two old time, highly respected TV newsmen, John Henning and John Hines, and gave them the evening news slot with the promo, "All the news without the song and dance". They bombed. The audience prefers the song and dance and views accordingly. WUSA in Washington, DC just got rid of Gordon Peterson, who some of you may remember as the host of Inside Washington, which itself went off the air last year because no one wanted to sponsor a show that hardly anyone watched.

I miss Camp Geraldo, where he tried to make it seem like bombs were dropping all around him while they were a hundred miles away. "Look at me! You can watch in hopes of seeing me getting blown up, just like you used to watch me during hurricanes to see if I got blow out to sea!" Hard to imagine that Geraldo and Tom Snyder got to be seen as mainstream journalists, not because they changed but because the world did.


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## nmetro

I remember when CNN first signed on, in 1980. I thought to myself, how will they fill time with news? Back when they signed on, WINS, in New York, had been all news format for about 15 years. The WINS motto "Give us 22 minutes, we'll give you the world". And, yes it took about 22 minutes, with commercials, to report on news, sports and weather. So, a 24x7 news channel; yeah right. Headline News, came a few years later, and promoted themselves as a TV version of something like WINS. CNN and HN were just that news. Once in a while news specials, but news around the clock.

That was 34 years ago; today CNN and HN are shells of their former selves. HN became a reality channel. CNN morphed into a FOX News and MSNBC, but with no real political direction. But, creating news where there wasn't any.

Case in point. Back in mid October, I was in St. Paul and staying at a hotel. On the guest floors they had CNN closed captioned. During that week, was the height of the Ebola news. I could swear it was like being in one of thsoe SyFy Channel Saturday night movies, because each time I took the elevator, you could see captions like epidemic, pandemic, Ebola spreading, can it happen here?, etc. In other words, CNN was looking more like one of those fictional news channels in a movie.

CNN lost all its credibility.

I also remember when ESPN signed on in 1979, 24 hour sports? In those days, the sports report was something the TV stations ran, after the weather, for two minutes. WINS would just give New York team scores, and when their next game was and that was about it. They managed to find sports, that they could get, this is how I got introduced to Australian Rules Football, Union rugby and League Rugby. They even managed to get All Day (50 Over) Cricket matches. And, in the fall, the Canadian Football league. No one ever thought ESPN would last. Well, they went the opposite of CNN, and are now a world sports station powerhouse.

So, which is worth $5 a month CNN or ESPN (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN News, ESPNU)?

By the way WINS to this day still reports the news; next April it will be their 50th anniversary. Before they went "all news, all the time"; they were at top 40 rock & roll station in New York City. They switched because of declining ratings and FM.

Thus, CNN needs to returns to its roots or convert, dare I say it, to a reality channel ala The Weather Channel. Irony, it was Turner who started The Weather Channel, and we've seen what that has become.


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## AntAltMike

In fairness to CNN, when Headlines News went "magazine" with Nancy Grace, back around 2005, their ratings immediately roughly doubled from 200,000 to 400,000., and she could pull even with MSNBC or CNN whenever something really bad happened to a young white female.

I remember Bill O"Reilly boasting that his show would never do stories on Jon Benet Ramsey, but Nancy kept cutting into his ratings with those stories. He still outdrew her, but all of a sudden on certain nights his edge was only 2 to 1 instead of 3 to one, and so his bosses made him do a full hour on that story and then small daily updates after that.

ESPN is where most of us first learned what "grinders" were on America's Cup yachts.


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## James Long

nmetro said:


> Thus, CNN needs to returns to its roots or convert, dare I say it, to a reality channel ala The Weather Channel.


With the addition of Bourdain, Rowe and Ling they seem to be doing that ... although as I have mentioned before, those are "human interest" news magazines. Reality with integrity? Can it be done?

CNN also does the news more than any other channel. For the past few months weekday overnights have been live simulcasting CNN International. Other networks have gone to replays of prime time news and infomercials.

It being the middle of the night there are less segments with people shouting at each other.



nmetro said:


> Irony, it was Turner who started The Weather Channel, and we've seen what that has become.


Not Turner. TWC was started by Landmark Communications.



AntAltMike said:


> In fairness to CNN, when Headlines News went "magazine" with Nancy Grace, back around 2005, their ratings immediately roughly doubled from 200,000 to 400,000., and she could pull even with MSNBC or CNN whenever something really bad happened to a young white female.


When CNN converted HLN prime time to Nancy Grace style programs I stopped watching the channel. So subtract me and everyone else who wanted to go "around the world in 30 minutes" and add in people who buy the National Enquirer and other fine publications.


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## Gloria_Chavez

Will be interesting to see what happens when carriage agreements for TBS and TNT lapse at the end of the year.

Turner will try to package all six together.

And Ergen may just say, no thanks.


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## djlong

What's worse is that sensationalism plays to the exact demographics that the advertisers are willing to pay for - people who are susceptible enough to the "shiny things" that they'll go out and buy whatever crap they see on TV.


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## Paul Secic

dough_boy747 said:


> who needs themm give me METV LOL>* :grin: *


I used to liked CNN.


----------



## fudpucker

What were the recent numbers for CNN on primetime? I seem to remember it being some crazy low number, like 168,000 viewers for a primetime hour. If you only have 168,000 viewers, can you afford to cut off about 14 million potential viewers on Dish?


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## Jaspear

James Long said:


> Sensationalizing was CNN's response to their demise. They went from being the only one for cable news to having competition. As the competition worked to beat CNN the competition began to infuse their news with sensational coverage. CNN's reaction was to join them ... turning HLN into E! and CNN into yet another shouting match news channel.


Crossfire on CNN was the original shouting match.


----------



## Jaspear

AntAltMike said:


> I remember Bill O"Reilly boasting that his show would never do stories on Jon Benet Ramsey, but Nancy kept cutting into his ratings with those stories. He still outdrew her, but all of a sudden on certain nights his edge was only 2 to 1 instead of 3 to one, and so his bosses made him do a full hour on that story and then small daily updates after that.


I remember that. Thank god I had a Tivo and could jump though those Jon Benet/ Natalee Holloway blocks. It seemed endless.


----------



## Jaspear

James Long said:


> With the addition of Bourdain, Rowe and Ling they seem to be doing that ... although as I have mentioned before, those are "human interest" news magazines. Reality with integrity? Can it be done?


Bourdain, Rowe and Ling right in the middle of prime time on the west coast. That tells me everything I need to know about their 'commitment' to live news.


----------



## James Long

Jaspear said:


> Crossfire on CNN was the original shouting match.


It was on for a limited time (not every broadcast hour). Today's shouting match on other channels doesn't seem to end.



Jaspear said:


> Bourdain, Rowe and Ling right in the middle of prime time on the west coast. That tells me everything I need to know about their 'commitment' to live news.


Trying to be all things to all people may be part of their problem. But tune in at Midnight PT and tell me what you see on the news networks. On CNN it would be CNN International. Having that staff in house makes them available if there is news overnight (even during the magazine hours ... which can be pre-empted).


----------



## AntAltMike

Jaspear said:


> ...those Jon Benet/ Natalee Holloway blocks...seemed endless.


How many times did we see the same clip of Natalee Holloway turning the wrong way while marching with the parade flag? A hundred? A thousand? It reminded me of the opening of the Gomer Pile show where Gomer turns the wrong way during the marching drill.


----------



## Chihuahua

nmetro said:


> I remember when CNN first signed on, in 1980. I thought to myself, how will they fill time with news? Back when they signed on, WINS, in New York, had been all news format for about 15 years. The WINS motto "Give us 22 minutes, we'll give you the world". And, yes it took about 22 minutes, with commercials, to report on news, sports and weather. So, a 24x7 news channel; yeah right. Headline News, came a few years later, and promoted themselves as a TV version of something like WINS. CNN and HN were just that news. Once in a while news specials, but news around the clock.
> 
> That was 34 years ago; today CNN and HN are shells of their former selves. HN became a reality channel. CNN morphed into a FOX News and MSNBC, but with no real political direction. But, creating news where there wasn't any.
> 
> Case in point. Back in mid October, I was in St. Paul and staying at a hotel. On the guest floors they had CNN closed captioned. During that week, was the height of the Ebola news. I could swear it was like being in one of thsoe SyFy Channel Saturday night movies, because each time I took the elevator, you could see captions like epidemic, pandemic, Ebola spreading, can it happen here?, etc. In other words, CNN was looking more like one of those fictional news channels in a movie.
> 
> CNN lost all its credibility.
> 
> I also remember when ESPN signed on in 1979, 24 hour sports? In those days, the sports report was something the TV stations ran, after the weather, for two minutes. WINS would just give New York team scores, and when their next game was and that was about it. They managed to find sports, that they could get, this is how I got introduced to Australian Rules Football, Union rugby and League Rugby. They even managed to get All Day (50 Over) Cricket matches. And, in the fall, the Canadian Football league. No one ever thought ESPN would last. Well, they went the opposite of CNN, and are now a world sports station powerhouse.
> 
> So, which is worth $5 a month CNN or ESPN (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN News, ESPNU)?
> 
> By the way WINS to this day still reports the news; next April it will be their 50th anniversary. Before they went "all news, all the time"; they were at top 40 rock & roll station in New York City. They switched because of declining ratings and FM.
> 
> Thus, CNN needs to returns to its roots or convert, dare I say it, to a reality channel ala The Weather Channel. Irony, it was Turner who started The Weather Channel, and we've seen what that has become.


Of course the slogan of the old Satellite News Channel (1982-83), a joint venture of ABC and Group W, was "Give us 18 minutes, we'll give you the world." And that network aired live newscasts, 24/7. If only we had that type of news network today.


----------



## acostapimps

I'll say this on CNN I did see actual news during primetime today
Then I flipped to Fox News and all I saw was Bill O'reilly kept arguing about god knows what
Then I tuned to MSNBC and nothing but sarcastic news about what Republicans did the day before

You be the judge, but as soon as someone from either party said something kind of drastic, or gave some form of opinion
then that's where CNN's Sensationalism rear it's ugly head as Breaking News.


----------



## AntAltMike

Like a lot of people, I have never understood why so much of the "news audience" chooses to watch shows that affirm that the person or persons that they just knew were SOBs are, in fact, SOBs. But then, I do realize why such viewers are a more valuable audience than I am. It is because once I "have" the day's news (pre-internet era, anyway), I change the channel. Back half a dozen or more years ago, when CNN was still trying to deny that Fox News was blowing its doors off, they pointed out that when they ran their early evening, two hour block of news, with stories presented live but repeated each half hour, while they only got about 600,000 viewers at time, they were getting over a million and a half "unique viewers" in that interval, whereas the Fox News audience hung in for hour after hour. Surely, nearly everyone who watched Hannity and Liberal to be Determined (that was actually the name of that show when it was in development) had already watched O'Reilly prior to that, so an advertiser that was more interested in getting his message to as many viewers as possible, rather than repeatedly drilling it into the heads of the same few, might discount the value of the larger Fox audience due to its lack of uniqueness, but eventually, the Fox News ratings swamped CNN by so much that CNN was no longer even seen as Fox News's opponent in the Nielsen evening news "match race".


----------



## Orion9

I remember someone being interviewed (on local news perhaps) and he said something that was blatantly incorrect and as the interviewer pressed for where he got that information he said it was "From Fox News, which is the only news channel I can stand to watch."

"news I can stand" is an interesting phenomenon. Sometimes I think they should bring back the fairness doctrine so people are exposed to news they can't stand, at least some of the time.


----------



## satcrazy

Now that AJ news has been on for awhile,what is everyone's take on it?

I told myself I wouldn't be watching it, but, is it a better venue than most? [ I do not watch much news unless something dramatic occurs]

Programs like Nancy grace make me cringe. Who wants to hear opinionated shouting?


----------



## James Long

satcrazy said:


> Who wants to hear opinionated shouting?


Check the ratings. Opinionated shouting is usually near the top. Ill informed opinionated shouting is very popular.


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## nmetro

This pretty much tells the story about how removal from DISH is affecting the Turner channels ratings:

http://www.ibtimes.com/dish-turner-war-has-many-casualties-adult-swim-cnn-take-ratings-hit-subscribers-grow-1724145


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## Stewart Vernon

When I'm in the mood to be entertained, the shouting people shows can be fun...

But, generally, when I want to see news... I'm wanting to see things that I don't already know! Because that is the very definition of "news" isn't it? That it be "new"... I don't need to watch a show that tells me stuff I already know OR affirms my opinion so that I feel good about myself for being "right" about something.

Whenever I tune to the news it is usually because I'm interested in seeing what is new in the world OR wanting the latest info about a current event that I know is happening.

This basically means I'm often disappointed in all the news channels at one time or another.


----------



## mwdxer

We have a lot more choices for news and news programming today. CNN was it in the 80s, but we have so many different choices. Add in streaming and the list is long.


----------



## mwdxer

I have read that Charlie may permanently drop Turner channels, unless Turner comes to the table with a resonable amount. The ratings are down on most of their channels.


----------



## satcrazy

James Long said:


> Check the ratings. Opinionated shouting is usually near the top. Ill informed opinionated shouting is very popular.


I must be getting old.

I live in the inner city where shouting, and noise of various natures are the norm. [ yes, fireworks and gunfire included] I have never embraced any of it.

I refuse to tune into programs that feature shouting as their venue. Nancy grace isn't the only one. There are some morning programs [ like springer] that feel like an assault to the senses. People must lead very dull, sad lives to find this garbage entertaining. [ no offense, Stewart]

I wonder what age group this appeals to?

Oh, at the risk of sounding like I live under a rock, what is Adult Swim? [ what channel?]


----------



## KyL416

> Oh, at the risk of sounding like I live under a rock, what is Adult Swim? [ what channel?]


It's Cartoon Network's overnight block, for ratings purposes they consider it a seperate channel because of the different audiences. Nickelodeon and Nick at Nite does the same thing. (Basically the daily average for kids would be lower if they include the ratings during Adult Swim, and the daily average for adults would be lower if they include the ratings during kids programming)


----------



## nmetro

Turner may be putting themselves out of business. By pulling the channels, from DISH, they made their position worse. With the exception of TCM, advertisers are not going to be happy that their ads are not being seen in 14 million homes. If this continues, and involves TNT and TBS, advertisers may go somewhere else. No advertiser; no channels. Too bad, TCM was a very good channel for classic, uncut, uninterrupted movies. As I like classic movies, I personally would pay $5 - $10 a month ala carte for this channel. The rest, CNN/HN, I have many sources, Tru, Why bother? TBS, I have Comedy central, TNT I have A&E, Cartoon Network/Bommerang, classic cartoons are available from multiple sources and Disney/Nickelodeon. So, out of all of this, TCM is the best of the Turner lot and truly unique. MGM HD has been a very poor substitute, as has FXM. Even on TCMs worse days, it is better than these two channels.

Too bad TCm does not let people pay for streaming; one can only get it if they subscribe to a cable or satellite service according to the "Watch TCM" web site. They also cut off DISH customers from that web stream,as well, by the way.

Oh yeah, 29 days and DISH/Turner are still acting like spoiled rich brats and spiting their customers in the process.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

satcrazy said:


> I refuse to tune into programs that feature shouting as their venue. Nancy grace isn't the only one. There are some morning programs [ like springer] that feel like an assault to the senses. People must lead very dull, sad lives to find this garbage entertaining. [ no offense, Stewart]


None taken... I usually don't... but sometimes they can be entertaining in the same way that wrestling or other fake confrontation programs are.

I prefer actual news, when I have the option, though... which can include reasoned conversation and disagreement as long as all parties are informed and respect each other's time and participation.


----------



## acostapimps

Imagine if CNN did a segment against Dish for not caring for its customers or did some form of short documentary about how bad it's Dish.

I would say that's desperation
but I don't want to give them ideas. 

While Fox News would thank Dish for removing CNN. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

nmetro said:


> Turner may be putting themselves out of business. By pulling the channels, from DISH, they made their position worse. With the exception of TCM, advertisers are not going to be happy that their ads are not being seen in 14 million homes. If this continues, and involves TNT and TBS, advertisers may go somewhere else. No advertiser; no channels. Too bad, TCM was a very good channel for classic, uncut, uninterrupted movies. As I like classic movies, I personally would pay $5 - $10 a month ala carte for this channel. The rest, CNN/HN, I have many sources, Tru, Why bother? TBS, I have Comedy central, TNT I have A&E, Cartoon Network/Bommerang, classic cartoons are available from multiple sources and Disney/Nickelodeon. So, out of all of this, TCM is the best of the Turner lot and truly unique. MGM HD has been a very poor substitute, as has FXM. Even on TCMs worse days, it is better than these two channels.
> 
> Too bad TCm does not let people pay for streaming; one can only get it if they subscribe to a cable or satellite service according to the "Watch TCM" web site. They also cut off DISH customers from that web stream,as well, by the way.
> 
> Oh yeah, 29 days and DISH/Turner are still acting like spoiled rich brats and spiting their customers in the process.


But did they? It sounds more like dish said see ya since you won't do what we want. So it's really both of them not one or the other.


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## mwdxer

Yes, I do wish we could pay directly for streaming. HBO and CBS will be doing this. Maybe in time, if the consumer wants a channel, it will be available for streaming, but something tells me,some will take a long time.


----------



## Wilf

mwdxer said:


> Yes, I do wish we could pay directly for streaming. HBO and CBS will be doing this. Maybe in time, if the consumer wants a channel, it will be available for streaming, but something tells me,some will take a long time.


It's getting there. Public TV is mostly there, local CBS stations in select areas (for too a high a fee), and CBSN streaming which is a free, CNN-like channel.


----------



## Orion9

Yeah if ABC and NBC follow CBS's lead, then I'll be able to watch all the channels I could watch in 1962 only for $18 instead of free. (And with even more commercials per hour.) Oh boy! I can't wait!


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## nmetro

Not only are DISH and Turner far apart, TBS and TNT could go on 5 December, 2014:

http://deadline.com/2014/11/turner-warn-tnt-tbs-blackout-dish-network-1201288316/

As for CBS, if it goes, Showtime and CBS Sports Network will go with it.

And CBS could pull the Viacom card, meaning even more dropped channels. Of course Tiem-Warner could do the same with HBO and Cinemax (Speculation).

Well, at least we still will have Disney, NBC Universal, and FOX owned channels; for now.


----------



## mwdxer

If we lose too many channel, subscribers will start jumping ship and Dish will lose out too. No one wins then.


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## satcrazy

posted by nmetro:
"So, out of all of this, TCM is the best of the Turner lot and truly unique. MGM HD has been a very poor substitute, as has FXM. Even on TCMs worse days, it is better than these two channels."

+1

Maybe Turner is betting on this as CNN is not the big dog it once was.

How ironic if true.

A channel that is devoted to purely classic movies trumphs reality, nba, and reruns.

Are the programmers paying attention?

They should be.


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## Stewart Vernon

Saw a commercial on TNT today... saying "Dish has already dropped channels and may drop more soon... so switch to someone else."

I always question the intelligence of running these kinds of ads. So... IF TNT does a deal with Dish, will TNT try and get those customers back? If not, and I know they won't, then TNT is costing Dish money while trying to ask Dish to pay even more money.

IF TNT is successful and all the customers who want TNT go elsewhere and leave Dish... then why would Dish negotiate to bring the channels back?  They wouldn't... because they would already have lost any incentive to do so...

So, TNT has to hope no large amount of customers actually leave Dish during the dispute as it costs TNT negotiating power in the long run.

Stupid negotiating tactics never end.


----------



## nmetro

Programmer do, they have been systematically been adding OTA digital sub-channels. There are well over 30 of these channels now available; all free with an OTA antenna. Not every market has these channels, but the larger to mid size ones do.

One of the reason cable started was to provide variety, in addition to clear up analog signals. Before cable, large markets like New York and La had thriving independent channels. There have been times I thought, there was more on the 7 VHF channels, that New York had in the 1960s, then what is available on 200 channels of cable.

The pendulum is swinging back. While there is a dearth of sports, there are a number of movies, recent and older programming and the like available. All for the cost of an antenna. Go here and see what I mean: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php

So, as the programming and cable executive play greed games; broadcasters are under cutting them. MeTV is the most popular of these sub-channels. A channels of shows from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.

So it is ironic that Ted Turner took WTCG (Channel 17 Atlanta), and made it the first super station. Over 40 years later, things have come back full circle. OTA, digital sub-channels and streaming options, will satisfy most TV viewers. Once ESPN, Fox Sports, BTN, Pac12, SEC Network and the like embrace this market, it will change the programming paradigm completely. By the way, if you look at the La market, for example, you will see channels like Showtime being sent OTA, as a subscription service. This technology has existed for over 30 years, but now being able to do it with HD and multiple channels could be a good model fro sports and premium movie services. It failed, because of the advent of cable, and one channels costing over $20 a month. Channels 67/68 (new York Area), were once used for this purpose.

The more Turner and Warner push this, the better chance their channels will end up on the dust bin of history. With the exception of TCM, whose revenue comes from DVDs, and owning a huge movie library, they other channels are being hit hard by less viewers and lower revenue. Effectively, Turner is killing themselves.



satcrazy said:


> posted by nmetro:
> "So, out of all of this, TCM is the best of the Turner lot and truly unique. MGM HD has been a very poor substitute, as has FXM. Even on TCMs worse days, it is better than these two channels."
> 
> +1
> 
> Maybe Turner is betting on this as CNN is not the big dog it once was.
> 
> How ironic if true.
> 
> A channel that is devoted to purely classic movies trumphs reality, nba, and reruns.
> 
> Are the programmers paying attention?
> 
> They should be.


----------



## James Long

nmetro said:


> So, as the programming and cable executive play greed games; broadcasters are under cutting them.


Hopefully it is DIFFERENT broadcasters or one might think it to be two faced.

Many broadcasters and their networks are part of the "greed games". Charging satellite and cable as much as they possibly can for retransmission of their free OTA signals. $1 or $2 per month per subscriber is their goal (until they get it and start asking for $5 per month). Multimillion dollar corporations acting as if getting $1 from each cable and satellite provider is make or break and practically claiming that cable and satellite is stealing their signal by retransmitting it (reaching more homes and more potential viewers for their advertising).

Some of the broadcasters who air Antenna TV, MeTV and the other new networks are the same large corporations we hear about when their contracts come up for renewal with DISH or DirecTV. These are not altruistic broadcasters seeking to entertain people in their market ... these broadcasters are businesses trying to make a buck off every viewer.

Perhaps driving viewers off of DISH or DirecTV or to a lesser extent cable and on to OTA is part of their plan to get people to watch their OTA subchannels. (Cable may carry the sub-channels depending on the market.)

As far as Turner goes, they are watching their place in the market shrink while their costs continue to rise. There is no endowment for their stations ... they must make money. It is a personal opinion whether or not their profit level represents "greed" or just staying in business. The same personal opinion comes into play when it comes to DISH and the other rebroadcasters.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> As far as Turner goes, they are watching their place in the market shrink while their costs continue to rise. There is no endowment for their stations ... they must make money. It is a personal opinion whether or not their profit level represents "greed" or just staying in business. The same personal opinion comes into play when it comes to DISH and the other rebroadcasters.


It isn't Turner or CBS that is seeing their market shrink.

Dish CEO Joe Clayton said during the Nov 4th earnings call the loss of the eight Turner channels wasn't having much of an impact on its subscriber base, but that could change if TNT and TBS go dark as well.

"TNT and TBS would cause a major hiccup,"

Dish chairman Charlie Ergen on the same call said while losing the additional Turner channels would most likely have a negative impact on subscriber growth

The CFO commented last week at an investors conference Dish could NOT live without CBS, TNT or TBS.

Imagine going into a War where you have already announced you are going to lose?!?! Great Strategy!!!!!

Dick Parsons (former Chairman of Time Warner) was interviewed on Bloomberg Monday afternoon and said TWC took Dick Parsons (former Chairman of Time Warner) was interviewed on Bloomberg Monday afternoon and said to look at how TWC had their head handed to them during a 30 day CBS blackout. And that Charlie was going to lose this one.

http://www.businessweek.com/videos/2014-11-18/dick-parsons-charlie-ergen-is-going-to-lose-cbs-fight

Speaking of which, I only get local channels from Dish.

The bill 2 1/2 years ago was $10 a month.

About 2 years ago it went to $16.95 a month (did Broadcasters get a $7 raise from Dish?)

My current bill just hit.....$28 and change.

So Charlie is complaining about paying CBS $2?

Charlie is stealing CBS's $2 (and more) and has been for years.


----------



## mwdxer

METV is the most popular Classic TV sub channel? I wonder where Antenna TV comes in? That is one I would love to have, but no OTA translator runs them here.


----------



## AntAltMike

mwdxer said:


> METV is the most popular Classic TV sub channel? I wonder where Antenna TV comes in? That is one I would love to have, but no OTA translator runs them here.


Antenna TV has more stale stuff on it. Bewitched, I Dream of Genie, George Burns and Gracie Allen. Jimmy Walker as JJ, or was it JJ Walker as Jimmy?

MeTV has the Colombo package even though CoziTV has the other Mystery Movies. The problem with The Mystery Movies is that there just weren't enough episodes of any but Comombo to sustain a regular viewing spot for any length of time.

Judy is still a babe on Lost in Space, but a woefully underutilized one. After the first year, that show became, "Doctor Smith, Lost in Space", featuring Will Robinson and the Robot trying to get him out of trouble.

I'm disappointed to observe that The Streets of San Fransisco doesn't hold up well.


----------



## bnewt

to me, as the consumer, it boils down to getting what I am paying for. I do not want substituted items that I am already paying for. why do I want to pay twice for the same thing


----------



## satcrazy

James Long said:


> Hopefully it is DIFFERENT broadcasters or one might think it to be two faced.
> 
> Many broadcasters and their networks are part of the "greed games". Charging satellite and cable as much as they possibly can for retransmission of their free OTA signals. $1 or $2 per month per subscriber is their goal (until they get it and start asking for $5 per month). Multimillion dollar corporations acting as if getting $1 from each cable and satellite provider is make or break and practically claiming that cable and satellite is stealing their signal by retransmitting it (reaching more homes and more potential viewers for their advertising).
> 
> Some of the broadcasters who air Antenna TV, MeTV and the other new networks are the same large corporations we hear about when their contracts come up for renewal with DISH or DirecTV. These are not altruistic broadcasters seeking to entertain people in their market ... these broadcasters are businesses trying to make a buck off every viewer.
> 
> Perhaps driving viewers off of DISH or DirecTV or to a lesser extent cable and on to OTA is part of their plan to get people to watch their OTA subchannels. (Cable may carry the sub-channels depending on the market.)
> 
> As far as Turner goes, they are watching their place in the market shrink while their costs continue to rise. There is no endowment for their stations ... they must make money. It is a personal opinion whether or not their profit level represents "greed" or just staying in business. The same personal opinion comes into play when it comes to DISH and the other rebroadcasters.


James,

Someone posted earlier that the NBA wants more money for their games. [ played on TNT] hence, part of the increase.

Most people are already choking on ESPN pricing, now they have to swallow this? As I posted before, TNT has been playing an extrordinary amount of reruns of "charmed"" smallville"," Bones", etc..... and I don't see much in the way of new programming. As a matter of fact, they cancelled some good ones last year, Southland, [ highly rated] among them.

If they are banking on NBA games to pick up the slack, count me out. These channels want more $ for less effort, typical corporate greed. If they are watching their place in the market shrink, it is of their own doing.

As I've said before, I'm glad Dish settled with AMC, the programming has improved [ IMO] on AMC, IFC [ IFC doesn't edit their stuff, kudo's to them] and especially Sundance. I watch these more now than before the dispute as they have stepped up their game.

Unless Turner comes up with better programming, I won't miss it.

As an afterthought, why don't they rerun some of the [good] programs they cut, and not at 4AM either.

Oh, yeah, IMO, TBS is a joke. They edit their stuff to the extreme, in between the endless commercials. I don't even bother with TBS anymore.


----------



## satcrazy

AntAltMike said:


> Antenna TV has more stale stuff on it. Bewitched, I Dream of Genie, George Burns and Gracie Allen. Jimmy Walker as JJ, or was it JJ Walker as Jimmy?
> 
> MeTV has the Colombo package even though CoziTV has the other Mystery Movies. The problem with The Mystery Movies is that there just weren't enough episodes of any but Comombo to sustain a regular viewing spot for any length of time.
> 
> Judy is still a babe on Lost in Space, but a woefully underutilized one. After the first year, that show became, "Doctor Smith, Lost in Space", featuring Will Robinson and the Robot trying to get him out of trouble.
> 
> I'm disappointed to observe that The Streets of San Fransisco doesn't hold up well.


I'm betting people here could come up with a bunch of programming that would fit into "mystery Movies" besides Colombo. How about Mannix?

I loved "streets." why doesn't it hold up?


----------



## Paul Secic

Chihuahua said:


> Of course the slogan of the old Satellite News Channel (1982-83), a joint venture of ABC and Group W, was "Give us 18 minutes, we'll give you the world." And that network aired live newscasts, 24/7. If only we had that type of news network today.


I remember Satellite News Channel. I also remember UPI News but they just had still photos with a man talking.


----------



## Athlon646464

*Update: **Dish Network may dump TNT and TBS, too, after CNN, TruTV and Adult Swim*

(radiotvtalk.blog.ajc.com) - The ugly battle between Dish Network and Turner Broadcasting rages on and could get even worse. If the two sides can't resolve their differences, TNT and TBS could be off the air as early as December 5th for 14 million Dish households nationwide or one-eighth of its potential audience....

Full Story Here









Dish Network subscribers could potentially lose access to hit TNT shows such as "Rizzoli & Isles" if the two sides can't come an agreement on a new contract by Dec. 5. CREDIT: TNT


----------



## OinkinOregon

Stick to your guns Charlie. Turner can go, it would not hurt my feelings one bit. Have not missed one of those channels and will not miss TNT or TBS.


----------



## SayWhat?

mwdxer said:


> METV is the most popular Classic TV sub channel? I wonder where Antenna TV comes in? That is one I would love to have, but no OTA translator runs them here.


Look at RTV.

'Who you say?'

Exactly. They were one of the better ones for a while, but they've all by faded away. Now Cozi is as good as any of them. Problem is, they all want to run the same old shows while there are hundreds of old shows out there that aren't getting run. ('Branded' anyone?)

There are enough old shows that each channel could run different shows and they would all be popular.


----------



## SayWhat?

Athlon646464 said:


> Dish Network subscribers could potentially lose access to hit TNT shows such as "Rizzoli & Isles" if the two sides can't come an agreement on a new contract by Dec. 5.


Angie's a doll, but I can't stand that show.


----------



## AntAltMike

SayWhat? said:


> Look at RTV.
> 
> 'Who you say?'
> 
> Exactly. They were one of the better ones for a while, but they've all by faded away.


RTV wound up losing most of their most desirable programming to the other channels when the rightsholders they were getting it from entered into other subchannel partnerships in which they had ownership stakes.


----------



## AntAltMike

satcrazy said:


> I'm betting people here could come up with a bunch of programming that would fit into "Mystery Movies" besides Colombo. How about Mannix?
> 
> I loved "streets." why doesn't it hold up?


Its ratings prove it didn't. It did great in syndication in the late 1970s and early 1980s, back before Phil and Oprah took over the mid-afternoon time slots. Now, however, we expect more sophisticated approaches to crime solving, and of course, in that era, common people "respected authority" and so when police told them to do things or not do things or answer questions, they nearly always complied, which seems strange to us today.

"Mystery Movies" aren't just any movie that entails a mystery. They were part of "Wheel" format TV programming that typically ran every third or fourth week. McMillian and Wife (40 episodes), McCloud (45) and later, Hec Ramsey (11) were part of such a rotation, as were Banicek (17) and even Quincy. The Bold Ones featured The Lawyers (28 episodes), the New Doctors (45), the Senator (8) and the Protectors (7), so in syndication, they get burned out in short order, even if they are spotted on the weekends.

Mannix was the original mainstay of TV Land, but the thing is, once the audience finally got Mannixed out, there is no new, receptive market if they try to run them again. On Mannix and Adam-12, they hold flashlights like flashlights and guns like guns. That must seem odd to a generation of people who don't realize how much one's opposable thumb can help in aiming a flashlight, or how much more accurately one can shoot if they stand up straight and look down the sights of a gun held parallel to the ground and extended perpendicular to them.


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## camo

Is dish dropping sub rates also? If they ever go a la carte I'm going back over.


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## satcrazy

AAM wrote:

"On Mannix and Adam-12, they hold flashlights like flashlights and guns like guns. That must seem odd to a generation of people who don't realize how much one's opposable thumb can help in aiming a flashlight, or how much more accurately one can shoot if they stand up straight and look down the sights of a gun held parallel to the ground and extended perpendicular to them."

How right you are.

That made me laugh out loud.


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## satcrazy

AntAltMike said:


> RTV wound up losing most of their most desirable programming to the other channels when the rightsholders they were getting it from entered into other subchannel partnerships in which they had ownership stakes.


Wouldn't a contract have taken care of this for awhile?


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## mwdxer

I have no idea how many viewers nationwide are into the old TV shows, but I know of several that would love to see more of them. Unfortunately, the majority of these channels are only available if there is an OTA station carrying them on a sub channel. In rare occasions, Dish or Direct will carry one in a new markets, like in the case of KVOS Bellington WA that runs METV as their main channel, but many viewers never get to see those channels. Even if they live in a metro area where the sub channel is available, they do not have an OTA antenna. They have Dish or Direct. Cable has the edge as they are able to carry most of the sub channels that are worthwhile. Apparantly Dish or Direct do not have that luxury as if they carry one sub channel, they will have to carry them all I have read and licensing is not the same for satellite as it is for cable. So, we are stuck in not getting most of those great sub channels. Here on the Oregon Coast, Charter Cable does carry a few sub channels like THIS TV. But so far they are not carrying METV or Antenna TV, which Portland cable carries. I love Dish, but if Charter ever gets to the point where they add all of the great sub channels the Portland stations have, then, I may jump ship. But so far nothing new from Charter Cable. But I would also have to weigh the other options. I may keep Dish and cut down to a smaller package and get basic cable for the sub channels. I already have Charter for internet and phone, so adding cable would be easy. But again so far, no Antenna TV is available to us. I even have my big dish as I get several OTA sub channels on that, but not Antenna TV. I could care less about Turner, except TCM. TBS & TNT, I donot care about them either. Like most of us, we pay through the nose for the majority of channels we never watch. but we are forced to buy a larger package to get the few channels we do watch.


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## AntAltMike

satcrazy said:


> Wouldn't a contract have taken care of this for awhile?


It did. The subchannel ventures that sprung up did so in coordination with the expiration of the syndication contracts of older programming. Basically, by joining in these "new" networks, they were simply leaving out a middleman.

RTV eventually wound up with its Rodgers Communications Canadian programming but little else. I used to "update" the Wikipedia page listing current affiliates, but I stopped doing that a couple of years ago. I think most RTV affiliates are low powered stations.

CoziTV had been running hour long dramas from the 1960s in the wee hours of the morning, like The Name of the Game, which was also a wheel or umbrella series, but those did so poorly that they now run The Cisco Kid and Hopalong Cassidy. Incredibly, the Cisco kid was shot in color back when there was no color TV transmission because its producers were forward thinking and figured that if they absorbed that extra cost, they'd have a superior syndication product in the future, but the production quality of that show was so bad that by the 1960s, people would rather watch good black and white reruns rather than horrible color ones. No one shoots guns out of people's hands better than Cisco and Pancho.


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## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> It isn't Turner or CBS that is seeing their market shrink.


Please read:


nmetro said:


> This pretty much tells the story about how removal from DISH is affecting the Turner channels ratings:
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/dish-turner-war-has-many-casualties-adult-swim-cnn-take-ratings-hit-subscribers-grow-1724145


*Dish-Turner War Has Many Casualties: Adult Swim, CNN Take Ratings Hit As Subscribers Grow Frustrated*

Ratings are down as much as 18 percent on some Turner-owned channels since they disappeared from Dish Network 25 days ago amid a contract dispute over programming costs. And unfortunately for Turner -- and for viewers -- there is no end in sight to the standoff.

Numbers from the article:
Adult Swim: 1.3 million weekly primetime viewers down to 1.1 million.
TruTV: 418,000 weekly down to 320,000 weekly primetime viewers.

These channels are not growing like gangbusters ... practically stagnant ... and now they take a hit because Turner cannot agree to the deal with DISH Network.


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## nmetro

Coming this spring is the Decades channel which will run shows, by Decade starting in the 1950s and will do a different decade per day. A new sub-channel that will carry CBS programming, among sources. Some planned shows now run on MeTV, Antenna, COZI, not sure if they will all move to Decades or be shown in both locations. Iniitially Decades will be available to CBS owned and operated stations, and expand from there.



SayWhat? said:


> \\\Look at RTV.
> 
> 'Who you say?'
> 
> Exactly. They were one of the better ones for a while, but they've all by faded away. Now Cozi is as good as any of them. Problem is, they all want to run the same old shows while there are hundreds of old shows out there that aren't getting run. ('Branded' anyone?)
> 
> There are enough old shows that each channel could run different shows and they would all be popular.


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## nmetro

I saw one article last week, that CNN, at 9 PM, has just over 131,000 viewers. I think it was in the Hollywood reporter or La Times.

Turner, if anything, is putting themselves out of business.



James Long said:


> Please read:
> *Dish-Turner War Has Many Casualties: Adult Swim, CNN Take Ratings Hit As Subscribers Grow Frustrated*
> 
> Ratings are down as much as 18 percent on some Turner-owned channels since they disappeared from Dish Network 25 days ago amid a contract dispute over programming costs. And unfortunately for Turner -- and for viewers -- there is no end in sight to the standoff.
> 
> Numbers from the article:
> Adult Swim: 1.3 million weekly primetime viewers down to 1.1 million.
> TruTV: 418,000 weekly down to 320,000 weekly primetime viewers.
> 
> These channels are not growing like gangbusters ... practically stagnant ... and now they take a hit because Turner cannot agree to the deal with DISH Network.


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## RunnerFL

Adult Swim isn't a channel, it's just what they call night time on Comedy Central.


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## Don M

OinkinOregon said:


> Stick to your guns Charlie. Turner can go, it would not hurt my feelings one bit. Have not missed one of those channels and will not miss TNT or TBS.


I miss TCM and will certainly miss TNT. I don't watch any of the other channels in question, but I am sure there are those who do. There are many channels that I get from DISH, not because I want or need tham, but because we don't have ala carte programming options. I could care less about the NBA. I like major league baseball and NFL football. I also watch some college football. My point is that just because I don't like a channel doesn't mean others don't. Watch what you like and let me do the same. A word to DISH...DO NOT lose TNT!!!


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## James Long

RunnerFL said:


> Adult Swim isn't a channel, it's just what they call night time on Comedy Central.


Cartoon Network.


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## Grandude

SayWhat? said:


> Angie's a doll, but I can't stand that show.


I agree. That show is just silly.


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## RunnerFL

James Long said:


> Cartoon Network.


Yeah, I knew it started with a C. lol


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## Paul Secic

Don M said:


> I miss TCM and will certainly miss TNT. I don't watch any of the other channels in question, but I am sure there are those who do. There are many channels that I get from DISH, not because I want or need tham, but because we don't have ala carte programming options. I could care less about the NBA. I like major league baseball and NFL football. I also watch some college football. My point is that just because I don't like a channel doesn't mean others don't. Watch what you like and let me do the same. A word to DISH...DO NOT lose TNT!!!


http://www.multichannel.com/news/programming/tcm-slates-mike-nichols-salute-dec-6/385769


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## nmetro

While we are at TCM Movie Schedules, This is December:

http://www.tcm.com/schedule/monthly.html?sdate=2014-12-01

And this is this month:

http://www.tcm.com/schedule/monthly.html

Good, classic movies between Thanksgiving and New Years Day.


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## nmetro

They're back!

http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/215248-turner-networks-back-on-dish/


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## nmetro

DISH, Turner Reach Agreement

More info here:

http://www.thewrap.com/dish-turner-reach-agreement-to-restore-cnn-other-channels/


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## inkahauts

Interesting.


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## Stewart Vernon

_Closing the thread since the channels are back..._

_Discussion can continue in the new thread:_

*Turner Networks Back on Dish*


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