# New 622; Volume level different HD>SD



## Rotryrkt (Dec 11, 2004)

As you can see from my signature, I finally relented and upgraded from the 921. Wow, what a difference! I now know what I was missing. I have yet to install a HDMI to DVI cable and am operating with component output for now. Still, I am astounded by the better PQ and overall improved functionality. So far, it has been rock solid and reliable (one week's use).

The only "problem" I have noticed is a rather large increase in volume level when switching from a HD channel to a SD channel. It is no big deal, but I was just curious if anyone else notices this behavior? I notice it to a lesser degree on 
TV2, but it is there.


----------



## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

Rotryrkt said:


> The only "problem" I have noticed is a rather large increase in volume level when switching from a HD channel to a SD channel. It is no big deal, but I was just curious if anyone else notices this behavior? I notice it to a lesser degree on
> TV2, but it is there.


I've had this problem since the day I bought a Dolby Digital receiver, well before I ever had HDTV. Anything I watch in Dolby Digital I have to boost the receiver 6 - 10 dB to be the same level as anything PCM. As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with the the Dish receiver and everything to do with the AVR and the source material. I've had this issue with my DVD Player, my Dish 5000 receiver, my 501, my 721, my 921, my 942, and my 622. i.e. anything involved in DD.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Same here... consistently any DD (especially 5.1) is lower than any PCM channel, so I have to crank up the volume to achieve the same results.

That said, I do notice my CBS 5.1 is much louder than say ESPNHD or other 5.1 HD channels... so I don't have to crank my CBS up as much... so beyond the technology involved, there is a lack of consistency from the channel provider too.


----------



## Rotryrkt (Dec 11, 2004)

I have now noticed that the 9443 HD demo channel on 61.5 seems to be a bit louder than other HD channels at night when the fish tank is on. I just checked it this morning and it is down lower with all the other HD channels when they are running their promo video. 

I guess now that you mention it, I have noticed this before on the 921, just to a lesser degree. Apparrently, on the DD channels, it's something we'll have to live with.


----------



## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

Rob Glasser said:


> I've had this problem since the day I bought a Dolby Digital receiver, well before I ever had HDTV. Anything I watch in Dolby Digital I have to boost the receiver 6 - 10 dB to be the same level as anything PCM. As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with the the Dish receiver and everything to do with the AVR and the source material. I've had this issue with my DVD Player, my Dish 5000 receiver, my 501, my 721, my 921, my 942, and my 622. i.e. anything involved in DD.


I think this just has to do with the greater dynamic range of Dolby Digital vs analog sources. Set top boxes and other audio devices have the challenge of matching loudness for the different audio sources. I think the 6 db difference vs PCM is part of the Dolby Digital specification. I think my 622 receiver is close to spec in this regard.

My local Fox station broadcasts 'The Tube' an 80's like MTV station with current videos on an OTA digital subchannel. I wish they would fix their sound as it seems way too quiet.


----------



## pcbelize (Dec 15, 2003)

I beleive that a read that this is a dish software issue introduced when they switched to "M-peg 4". 

This has never happened on my 6000 and it didn't happen on 942 until shortly after the "switch". But my 622 has had it from day one.


----------



## Gilly (Apr 5, 2005)

This has always been the case with digital channels generally lower volume. I used to have D* and it was that way. Even a stand alone digital receiver that I have has this issue. Local digital OTA is lower volume than local analog OTA. So I believe it's from the source (broadcast). And the CBS affiliate is the greatest difference in volume between digital and anolog.


----------



## sdsanta (Feb 21, 2006)

Rotryrkt said:


> It is no big deal, but I was just curious if anyone else notices this behavior? I notice it to a lesser degree on
> TV2, but it is there.


It turned out to be a big deal for me a about a month ago. I live in an area of Southern California where the houses are close together. On a recent Saturday I came home and decided to watch something I had recorded in HD on my 622. Well I fell asleep before the show ended, and after it was over my 622 switched to the SD channel I had on prior to watching the recorded show. The resulting increase in volume didn't wake me, but the ringing doorbell did when the cops showed up because my loud TV was disturbing my neighbors!!


----------



## araghava (Aug 29, 2006)

I find there is a big difference in volume between the OTA HD and the dish HD for the same program. OTA Hd is much lower and i have to boost the volume.


----------



## Rovingbar (Jan 25, 2005)

I am really annoyed that on many 5.1 channels the vocal track is much lower than the music. I have to keep my finger on the volume button to turn up dialogue and turn down other sound effects. I've even tried boosting the center channel, but then most other channels are blaring dialogue and effects are muted. Argh.

Jeff


----------



## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

Rovingbar said:


> I am really annoyed that on many 5.1 channels the vocal track is much lower than the music. I have to keep my finger on the volume button to turn up dialogue and turn down other sound effects. I've even tried boosting the center channel, but then most other channels are blaring dialogue and effects are muted. Argh.
> 
> Jeff


That happens a lot when the station engineers forget to throw a switch. I have called then several times and once they throw this switch, it's back to normal. This has nothing to do with the 622.


----------



## Larry Caldwell (Apr 4, 2005)

Rovingbar said:


> I am really annoyed that on many 5.1 channels the vocal track is much lower than the music. I have to keep my finger on the volume button to turn up dialogue and turn down other sound effects. I've even tried boosting the center channel, but then most other channels are blaring dialogue and effects are muted. Argh.
> 
> Jeff


Dolby Digital has a higher dynamic range than an analog signal. To accommodate the range, the base digital amplitude is 3 dB below the base analog amplitude. The decibel scale is logarithmic, and 3 dB represents half as much energy. When you turn the quiet passages up to normal listening levels, the loud passages are supposed to blow you back in your seat. It's part of the home theater experience.

Another way of looking at it is the volume control on analog programming sets the average sound level, while the volume control on digital programming sets the maximum sound level. A spaceship exploding would sound about the same volume with either digital or analog inputs. It's the quiet stuff that plays quieter in digital.

I keep my finger on the volume control when I am watching digital programming late at night. With a THX certified receiver and good speakers, some movies will bounce everybody in the house out of bed! Sometimes I use a good set of wireless headphones.


----------



## Rovingbar (Jan 25, 2005)

Larry Caldwell said:


> Dolby Digital has a higher dynamic range than an analog signal. To accommodate the range, the base digital amplitude is 3 dB below the base analog amplitude.


Yah, well I'd be happy if it was only 3dB. I usually have to move the master volume 8-10 dB to be able to hear dialogue. Then most of the sound effects (even background music) are loud but tolerable... until the big blasts. We only have problems with one or two shows, most programs are fine.

Jeff


----------



## Rovingbar (Jan 25, 2005)

Yiks, I just started watching a recording of Boston Legal that had no voice track. Yep, I jacked the audio up very loud and there was no voices on any channel. I could hear ambient sound on each of our 6 speakers (6.1 setup) so it is not a loose wire. I tried several decoding modes (Standard Dolby EX, some advanced surround sound modes) but I did not try the sterio output. The really interesting moment came when during the show there was a TV news report. When the TV was on screen, the news dialogue was muted, when the TV was off screen, the news dialog was audible at normal volume on the right surround speaker. The last 15 minutes of the show seem to be back to normal volume. All this tells me that it is probably what lujan mentioned about a station tech with a wrong setting somewhere.

Oh yah, this was also complicated by the recent SW download. The recording happened on the old rev. Since this rev seemed to affect audio issues, it seems possible that this recording was somehow affected.


Affected recording: Boston Leagal - Dallas, Channel 8, WFAA - HD Locals from Sat - recorded on 9/26
Audio receiver - Pioneer VSX812 - optical input
Vip622 - L363 during record - L365 during playback

Jeff


----------



## dishbacker (Jun 15, 2004)

Rovinbar, note that WFAA has had issues with this before. I remember at least twice last season where the first 5-10 minutes of Desperate Housewives had no audio and then it started working after a break. As for that Boston Legal episode, the audio was out on both OTA as well as WFAA-HD via Dish. It worked fine on 8400 (WFAA SD) as well as OTA analog (my parents called me with the same question).


On the sound level front, I have something interesting to add. I just got my 622 and last night I was watching ESPN NFL Primetime on both my 622 and 942, both via RCA audio cables to my Sony RP HDTV. The 622 audio was a good 6-10db louder than the 942, no changes at all, just a change of my TV inputs from one box to another. I had to turn down the volume after the switch because it was noticably louder. My 942 has gotten worse with every software update in that the HD channels get softer and softer. So, IMHO, stating that the audio levels is not a software issue doesn't seem to hold water... unless the 942 and 622 handle the audio streams that much differently.


----------



## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

Rovingbar said:


> Yiks, I just started watching a recording of Boston Legal that had no voice track. Yep, I jacked the audio up very loud and there was no voices on any channel. I could hear ambient sound on each of our 6 speakers (6.1 setup) so it is not a loose wire. I tried several decoding modes (Standard Dolby EX, some advanced surround sound modes) but I did not try the sterio output. The really interesting moment came when during the show there was a TV news report. When the TV was on screen, the news dialogue was muted, when the TV was off screen, the news dialog was audible at normal volume on the right surround speaker. The last 15 minutes of the show seem to be back to normal volume. All this tells me that it is probably what lujan mentioned about a station tech with a wrong setting somewhere.
> 
> Oh yah, this was also complicated by the recent SW download. The recording happened on the old rev. Since this rev seemed to affect audio issues, it seems possible that this recording was somehow affected.
> 
> ...


Same thing happened on L&O Friday night on NBC (first 40 minutes no center channel) and Cold Case on CBS (intermittently throughout broadcast), LA locals via sat (don't have ota). I have optical to A/V receiver and rca composite to a dvd recorder. Experienced same audio problem on both types of connection. L365 during record and playback.


----------



## gnm313-1 (Apr 24, 2005)

I have fixed this problem in my setup by adding a center channel. Apparently, the networks are transmitting the voices to the center channel via DD5.1. When you switch to a non-DD commercial or channel, whammo you get blasted because you have to had your volume up higher to hear the voices on your front channels. I used to constantly have to raise and lower the volume. I haven't played with my volume at all since adding the center channel.


----------



## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

gnm313 said:


> I have fixed this problem in my setup by adding a center channel. Apparently, the networks are transmitting the voices to the center channel via DD5.1. When you switch to a non-DD commercial or channel, whammo you get blasted because you have to had your volume up higher to hear the voices on your front channels. I used to constantly have to raise and lower the volume. I haven't played with my volume at all since adding the center channel.


I don't know what you mean by "adding a center channel." Adding a center channel to what? You don't have a center channel when your using the TVs audio?


----------



## William (Oct 28, 2006)

Actually it is a combination of things that make DD play (and appear) at a lower level. DD reference level is about 4dB lower and the increase in dynamic range case it to seem like even more. Here is a paper that gives some of the tech details of DD sound levels.


----------



## gnm313-1 (Apr 24, 2005)

lujan said:


> I don't know what you mean by "adding a center channel." Adding a center channel to what? You don't have a center channel when your using the TVs audio?


How many speakers does your TV have? DD5.1 is capable of reproducing 5 different sound sources. If your TV only has 2 speakers, it can only give you Stereo (Front Channel). I am speaking of optical audio out of the 622 to a receiver capable of DD5.1


----------



## Rovingbar (Jan 25, 2005)

gnm313 said:


> I have fixed this problem in my setup by adding a center channel.


I've had almost the exact opposite experience! I have a 6.1 setup, and I've been considering going back to sterio. (Not really.) Sometimes it just seems like too much bother when switching between stations. I have no problems with DVDs, it is just sometimes on some stations the dialogue (in the center channel) is very quiet.


----------



## gnm313-1 (Apr 24, 2005)

Rovingbar said:


> I've had almost the exact opposite experience! I have a 6.1 setup, and I've been considering going back to sterio. (Not really.) Sometimes it just seems like too much bother when switching between stations. I have no problems with DVDs, it is just sometimes on some stations the dialogue (in the center channel) is very quiet.


Interesting. My center channel is the most active now. I take it you are using the optical output of the 622?


----------



## Rovingbar (Jan 25, 2005)

Yes, optical out. I've tried adjusting the center channel volume, but show-to-show variation gets me. I've ended up just calibrating all the speakers (using my trusty SPL meter) to the same level. My setup is fine for DVDs and about 80% of TV shows. Its just 4-5 shows per week where the audio effects dround out the dialogue, and it is very annoying.


----------



## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

Rovingbar said:


> Yes, optical out. I've tried adjusting the center channel volume, but show-to-show variation gets me. I've ended up just calibrating all the speakers (using my trusty SPL meter) to the same level. My setup is fine for DVDs and about 80% of TV shows. Its just 4-5 shows per week where the audio effects dround out the dialogue, and it is very annoying.


I agree. I don't understand the thinking of the producers of the shows that cover up the dialog with excess background noise.


----------



## gnm313-1 (Apr 24, 2005)

Rovingbar said:


> Yes, optical out. I've tried adjusting the center channel volume, but show-to-show variation gets me. I've ended up just calibrating all the speakers (using my trusty SPL meter) to the same level. My setup is fine for DVDs and about 80% of TV shows. Its just 4-5 shows per week where the audio effects dround out the dialogue, and it is very annoying.


That is a different problem, but I have had that problem too. Nothing you can do about that one. That is the network's inability to transmit DD correctly. It only happened to me once and I think I just switched to the SD channel to get around it. Not much you can do if you are recording and playing back later.


----------



## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

Mixing for multi-channel sound is still something that is having to be "learned" for what works on the tele. The sound engs have been doing it for years for movies but it is still fairly new for TV shows. So there will be a lot of foul ups on what it should sound like until they have gotten used to the home theater atmosphere.


----------

