# Antenna Problem (like almost pregnant)



## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

I just put up a ChannelMaster CM 4228 in place of my older long range antenna for HD reception, but I continue to have the same problem I had before. I can't receive channels coming from the east, but no problems with those coming from the west. Replacing the old antenna has brought me a much stronger signal for the channels I get.

I live in NC midway on a line between Raleigh (32 mi. to towers) and Greensboro (42 mi. from towers). I get all the Greensboro stations that are anywhere near the axis of the antenna reception and also the two stations north and south of me (8 and 18 miles). I even get the strong Greensboro stations from the BACK side of the antenna when pointed at Raleigh. But I can only get one of the 6 - 8 stations I should get from Raleigh. One of those that I don't get is WRAL which is one of the strongest in the region. 

With the old antenna, I could get all the analog stations on both sides with no problems. The problem I'm having here is with the digital stations (all in the UHF range). All of this is with the antenna connected directly to my Sony -- I have the same problem if I connect via the HR20 antenna input.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I've checked the connections and removed (temporarily) the surge protector without change. Is it possible hat a short in a connector could block some channels (those east of mag north? :<) and not others?

BTW, many years ago, my wife was diagnosed as being "almost pregnant"! Never really knew what the problem was, but the results were "slightly positive". My daughter was born about 8 months later. This problem seems analogous: I "almost" get great OTA reception.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

What's your zip code???


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> What's your zip code???


27312

May I ask why that matters?


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

I'm not sure it's total success, but after re-routing the antenna cable to get a direct connection antenna to tv, I still had the same problem. Before posting I had checked the cable and connectors and found them to be good, but at this point I decided to cut off and replace the oldest connector. About half of the missing stations now show up. Tomorrow I'll pull the antenna down again and replace the other end hoping for the best. Then I'll probably add an amplifier so that I can try to insert a splitter and run to both tv and HR20.

So if you're missing OTA stations check or replace those connectors -- they may be filtering or blocking some frequencies.

Is there some way I can get this thread closed?


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

With some diligent rooftop work and meticulous adjustments of the antenna directions, I finally can receive the rest of those stations. The signals are so weak that a lock can't be secured which is why I had trouble finding them until the connector fix and the fine tuning. 

Now if I could just understand why three 1000MW stations 32 miles to the east are so weak they won't lock while three 1000MW stations 42 miles to the west come in so strong I can get them with the BACK side of my directional antenna! My HR20 will actually play the western stations while the eastern will not show up at all (only my Sony's tuner can detect them).

My thanks to veryoldschool, coffey77 and hasan who provided assistance with this.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

richlife said:


> With some diligent rooftop work and meticulous adjustments of the antenna directions, I finally can receive the rest of those stations. The signals are so weak that a lock can't be secured which is why I had trouble finding them until the connector fix and the fine tuning.
> 
> Now if I could just understand why three 1000MW stations 32 miles to the east are so weak they won't lock while three 1000MW stations 42 miles to the west come in so strong I can get them with the BACK side of my directional antenna! My HR20 will actually play the western stations while the eastern will not show up at all (only my Sony's tuner can detect them).
> 
> My thanks to veryoldschool, coffey77 and hasan who provided assistance with this.


The signal off the front (if it is indeed off the front) may be too strong for the HR20, see my notes below. One additional note:

The front of a yagi or log periodic antenna:

Elements decrease in width from back to front. Longer elements are in the back, shorter elements are in the front. As I recall the 4228 is a UHF only screen reflector.

In a "screen reflector" type antenna, the screen is the BACK, the side the elements mount on is the FRONT.

The reason the person asked for you zip, was to look up the recommended antenna for your zip code on antennaweb.org.

Here is the info from my PM reply:

Hi Rich,

I read the thread. Let's look at a few things:

0. Are you SURE you have it pointed the right way? It's very easy to point the antenna backwards. If the antenna uses a reflecting screen, the screen side is the BACK of the antenna, the side the elements or bow ties are mounted is the FRONT side. You can't receive signals off the front and the back (optimally) at the same time. If the stations you are trying to get are in different directions, you are going to have a problem. (unless you are just lucky...sometimes signals off the back are good enough, but not often unless you are really close.)

1. The 4228 is a good antenna.

2. Are the stations you can get off the front or the back of the 4228? It is a uni-directinal antenna with good gain, so it would not be unheard of that you would get signals off the front,but not the back.

3. What is your terrain like? Are you trying to go over big hills or mountains in the direction that you are having problems with?

4. If the problem is that you can't receive channels in the direction the antenna is pointed, you might have TOO STRONG a signal. The HR20 is real picky. Go to your favorite radio shack store and buy a variable attenuator. It is quite cheap. It will have two F connectors, in and out. Put the attenuator between your antenna feed to the HR20 and the HR20 antenna input. Start with lots of attenuation, increase it a 1/4 turn at a time (assuming one full turn from max attenuation to minimum attenuation). Note the signal level ...keep increasing it until either the signal drops out, or you don't get a further increase. (Don't forget to buy a short jumper cable so you can insert the attenuator, btw)

5. If replacing that connector actually improved signals as you describe, I would be worried about the feedline itself. How long has that feedline been out there exposed to weather? Perhaps you got water in the feedline at some point (due to poor sealing of the end at the antenna...it should be waterproofed, not just have a boot over it....you can use RTV silicon sealant over the connection, once you have it screwed on...it takes several hours for it to dry) Once water has ingressed to the cable, it is never going to be good again.

Now, on to the Sony TV itself

How strong are the signals on the Sony that you can't receive on the HR20? Either in % or "x" bars out of 10, if that's how they display it?

How strong are the signals on the Sony that you can receive?

How strong are the signals that you can receive on the HR20?

Try taking the cable feeding the Sony on a station that it is receiving and connecting it directly to the HR20..

Once you give me some feedback, we'll go further.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Rich,

I plugged your zip code into antennaweb.org and I suggest you do the same. Use "multi-story" for your location...it will give better results. Once you have it up on the screen, we can discuss specifically what stations you are trying to get and what the requirements/chances are.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

Rich - my suggestion is to head to the Seattle OTA thread on AVS Forum and leave a post for Dan Kurtz (AKA Dan the Antenna Man). He's a very good professional installer who can give you sage advice for getting the most from your OTA reception. I live in a multipath jungle (why else would I live on "Forest Drive") and he got me good reception.

I have a CM 7775 amplifier that I ended up not needing. PM me if you're interested.

John


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

Question: On the analog side, do you have any multi-phasing (ghosting or picture "shimmer") issues with any of the stations? Multi-phasing will kill a digital signal and make it appear weak. I had a similar issue using rabbit ears. The fix was actually to put the telescoping elements DOWN to get LESS signal. It is counterintuitive, but it works!

See ya
Tony


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

Thanks for the input. 

Hasan, I used antennaweb.org and came up with the CM4228 (8-bay whatever it said). 
TNGTony, my analogs don't really show ghosting -- particularly on the key stations I'm missing. 
JM Anthony, thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Got some pretty good help here  too. Based on PMs from veryoldschool and hasan, I think I need to replace cable and go from there. 

Since my wife is from the mountains of NC, I consider this area as flatland. I'm at the very edge of the NC Piedmont (which is softly rolling hills) near the crest of one of the higher hills. Raleigh is lower on on the edge of the coastal plain (-300 ft) while Greensboro is higher in the Piedmont (+300 ft). To me (and especially with the input I've received), the problem appears to be related to connectivity. If anything the Raleigh side might be overdriven but that not what's happening since the symptoms are consistent with over driving. 

Full summary of this situation editted from PMs:
A list of area stations is below. An * is in front of those which are still a problem, but that needs more explanation (I'll do that below). 

I was asked if I'm sure the antenna is pointed properly: yes, the antenna direction is spot on. Consistent with the compass settings although since I know exactly where I wanted to point I never checked the actual bearings -- interesting that all the stations I'm having problems with are at 107 and 108 degrees (and I suspect 108 is a typo for 107). 

The cable is actually in perfect condition except the the connectors that I replaced -- no kinks and no staples used but Hasan suggested I consider the cable suspect internally due to the bad connection -- and it is 10+ years old. Replacing connectors "found" some of the stations. Or maybe I should say all of them. Today I spent some more time trying to find why I can't the the five marked by *. By incremental (very tight) adjustments and examining the signal strength of each station with my Sony's tuner, I found that the three with one * can be detected but not reliably locked. The signal is fluctuating from 30s to 60s on the Sony's signal detector -- approx. 60 appears to be cutoff for a lock (as 40 is on the HR20). I can't detect a digital signal at all from the two stations with **, but I do get their analog UHF signal. This is probably because they have about 60% of the power of the others. 

Other than cable, none of this seems to explain why I can get stations from the west with the same power (about 1000KW) with very strong signals (approaching 100%) and those from the east which are 10 miles closer just won't come in. I checked the frequecies of all these stations (except the **) and while they are relatively high (683, 701 and 707 MHz) the two stations I receive best are at 695 and 743 MHz. The only other major topological differences around here are that Jordan Lake (more than a mile across) is also east of me about 4 miles away while west it's more hilly.

Assuming that I've resolved the real problems I see several options since I'll need a stronger signal before the HR20 tuner can receive these stations. 
1 - I could buy more and better cable. Not sure that would help enough to overcome the 30% drop I see in 5, 11 and 50.x but seems the best starting point now. 
2 - I can buy a pre-amp (Channel Master 4777) and put it in-line. (Costs are mounting, domestic bliss not so much :<(.
3 - I can try to gang the the two antennas I have. Again, basee on what veryoldschool suggested I'll use two condensors, equal lengths of cable and a "splitter" to "join" the signals. 

So that's where I am now. thanks, Rich

yellow - uhf WUVC-DT 40.1 UNI FAYETTEVILLE NC 164° 18.5 38
violet - uhf WGHP-DT 8.1 FOX HIGH POINT NC 283° 41.2 35
yellow - uhf WMYV-DT 48.1 MNT GREENSBORO NC 289° 40.6 33 
yell - uhf WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM NC 289° 40.6 29 
yellow - uhf WFMY-DT 2.1 CBS GREENSBORO NC 289° 41.6 51 
blue - uhf WLXI-DT 61.1 TBN GREENSBORO NC 289° 40.6 43 
violet - uhf WGPX-DT 16.1 i BURLINGTON NC 326° 45.5 14
yellow - uhf WUNC-DT 4.1 PBS CHAPEL HILL NC 346° 8.1 59
Antennaweb:
WUNC-DT 4.1 PBS CHAPEL HILLNC 8° 7.1 59
WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM NC 289° 37.5 29
WFMY-DT 2.1 CBS GREENSBORO NC 289° 38.5 51
** WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 107° 36.4 55
WUVC-DT 40.1 UNI FAYETTEVILLE NC 156° 20.3 38
* WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 107° 36.4 49
* WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 107° 36.4 53
WMYV-DT 48.1 MNT GREENSBORO NC 289° 37.5 33
** WLFL-DT 22.1 CW RALEIGH NC 107° 36.4 57
WRDC-DT 28.1 MNT DURHAM NC 107° 36.4 27
* WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 108° 36.2 52
WLXI-DT 61.1 TBN GREENSBORO NC 289° 37.5 43
WGHP-DT 8.1 FOX HIGH POINT NC 283° 38.0 35


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

BTW, though I got great input from the PMs, I think I approched that the wrong way. I should have simply asked for attention to this thread (as I did with Hasan) so that the info would get shared. I tended to think of it as being unique to my situation and now I doubt that.

So I've tried to bring it home here since despite having part of the problem resolved I still don't have complete resolution. thanks again


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