# DIRECTV Satellite Discussion DLA-1 @95W



## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

Satellite DLA-1 Intelsat 30 / DIRECTV Latin America 1

Finally, the FCC has granted authorization. The launch date has been confirmed for Octuber 16th and here are some pictures...






Regards,

PS: Does someone know what CATR and CGMOI stand for?


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

egakagoc2xi said:


> Gary,
> 
> I'm pretty sure this is not the place, but there isn't a thread for the ISDLA1.
> 
> ...


What are we looking at? DIRECTV14?
Do we have a link?


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

damondlt said:


> What are we looking at? DIRECTV14?
> Do we have a link?


http://sslmda.com/html/satexp/isdla1_2.html


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

> *egakagoc2xi*
> 
> PS: Does someone know what CATR and CGMOI stand for?


CATR --- SS/L's "Compact Antenna Test Range"

CGMOI --- SS/L's "Center of Gravity Moment Of Inertia" process facility.

Not sure of the nature or necessity of the testing or process for the later.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

And maybe someone else can answer, why the FCC filed data and other media releases for ISDLA1 & 2 keep listing only 72 Ku transponders available for DLA service on each bird, when the count is actually 80? (80 + 1 if the special TCN channel is included).

Totals for Ku band payload:

32 24Mhz Pan-Regional tps.
48 36MHz Regional tps.
1 8MHz TCN tp.
-------------------------------
80 (81) 

Why are the oft- quoted Ku TPN listings 8 short this way?


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## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

HoTat2 said:


> And maybe someone else can answer, why the FCC filed data and other media releases for ISDLA1 & 2 keep listing only 72 Ku transponders available for DLA service on each bird, when the count is actually 80? (80 + 1 if the special TCN channel is included).
> 
> Totals for Ku band payload:
> 
> ...


Jejeje, I have 2 years with the same doubt xD


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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

This thread is dedicated to Directv Satellite DLA-1

which also referred to as: Intelsat 30 / Directv Latin America -1 / DLA-1 / IS30 / ISDLA1


The beam footprints for DLA-1 are available in Post #19 of the Beam Footprint Library thread in the Tips & Resources Forum.

At present the launch date is scheduled for October 16, 2014. It will have a profound impact for the Directv Panamericana Division which provides service to Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Uruguay and Venezuela. It also includes El Caribe entities Aruba and Curacao, Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago and Caribe Regional. Puerto Rico service has transitioned to US Domestic satellite resources.

This satellite will be followed in 2015 by IS31 / DLA-2, a second new satellite dedicated to Directv Latin America.

Both DLA-1 and DLA-2 will be co-located with the G3C satellite at 95 degrees West.


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## bcltoys (Feb 11, 2009)

Where will this bird be placed.


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## bcltoys (Feb 11, 2009)

Woop's I see 95 west. sorry


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Gary Toma said:


> This thread is dedicated to Directv Satellite DLA-1
> 
> which also referred to as: Intelsat 30 / Directv Latin America -1 / DLA-1 / IS30 / ISDLA1
> 
> ...


Gary, do you know how the EL Caribe entities receive HD?

Or did they ever receive any?

With HD having been long removed from Beam PR, do they only receive the handful (six presently) of HD channels on Beam Oeste?


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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Gary, do you know how the EL Caribe entities receive HD?
> 
> Or did they ever receive any?
> 
> With HD having been long removed from Beam PR, do they only receive the handful (six presently) of HD channels on Beam Oeste?


As I recall, the El Caribe area (not to include Puerto Rico) receives only those 6 HD channels on Beam Oeste. They do not receive Beam Sur, which could provide an additional 36 HD channels. El Caribe also receives only FOX, ABC and NBC and those only in SD.

Last time I looked into this, they received a CBS feed via WSEE (from Erie, PA, would you believe) also in SD. So you would have a weather person in the studio in Erie, PA, dressed in a short sleeved shirt, delivering the Caribbean weather forecast. After the broadcast, the weather person drives home through two feet of snow...

_Just checked and cannot find WSEE in the current Latin TPN Map. It would be great to hear from a local on this subject _


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## woj027 (Sep 3, 2007)

Great add for the Latin America fleet!


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> CATR --- SS/L's "Compact Antenna Test Range"
> 
> *CGMOI --- SS/L's "Center of Gravity Moment Of Inertia" process facility.*
> 
> Not sure of the nature or necessity of the testing or process for the later.


Determining the spacecraft Cg and moment of inertia and verifying that, as built, these characteristics fall within the design specification, are necessary for a number of reasons. First, it ensures that the launch vehicle will be able to maintain attitude control and stability during launch. Second, it ensures that once on-orbit, the spacecraft itself will be able to maintain attitude control during orbital maneuvers and operational activities.

Measurements can be done any number of ways - Cg can be figured with straightforward scales and measurements of the vehicle dimensions and simply determining the balance point. Moment of inertia is a somewhat more complicated concept - it boils down to the torque necessary to impart angular acceleration. This is important to know to calibrate control systems as well as to verify launch vehicle stability. Determining moment of inertia mathematically can be messy but doing it experimentally is pretty easy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia#Calculating_moment_of_inertia_about_an_axis

The catch is that the axis about with you're measuring may be arbitrary and may not line up with the physical axes of of the spacecraft. That's why the Cg measurements are so important.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> And maybe someone else can answer, why the FCC filed data and other media releases for ISDLA1 & 2 keep listing only 72 Ku transponders available for DLA service on each bird, when the count is actually 80? (80 + 1 if the special TCN channel is included).
> 
> Totals for Ku band payload:
> 
> ...


Haven't looked at the data but "spare" transponders interfer with the count.
Also Functional Transponders require UPLINK capability and thus can affect "count"

Doctor j


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## Luispr14 (Oct 25, 2008)

Hi Gary,since October 8 2013 the signal from WSEE/CBS is out for El Caribe area and also from Puerto Rico with at least for now no news as to when will get back the CBS feed either from WSEE or other CBS affiliate


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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

A new Latin TPN Map has been posted in the Transponder Maps thread. For the first time, we have some records of the coming PAN Networks 3 and 4, which will be provided by DLA-1. A projected, new, Network Decoder is provided as a first glimpse of the coming new capabilities.


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## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

Intelsat 30 / DLA-1: the Journey Begins







_By Jon Harborne, Senior Manager, Intelsat Spacecraft Program Office_
_First in a series from Intelsat team members overseeing the launch of Intelsat 30, which is hosting the DLA-1 payload for DirecTV Latin America._
I am pleased to report that Intelsat 30 arrived safe and sound at the launch base in French Guiana on Wednesday, 10 September. It was transported from SSL's manufacturing facility in Palo Alto, California by an Antonov-124, a Ukrainian plane with a large enough cargo bay to carry the satellite inside its shipping container (pictured).
Currently, the satellite is scheduled to launch on 16 October. Between now and then, there are many tasks to be completed to ensure the satellite is ready, literally, for lift-off. The first twelve days are taken up with checking that the spacecraft still performs flawlessly after its flight from California. To do this, we'll repeat the electrical functional tests that were conducted before the satellite was shipped, and also check that the propulsion system does not leak.
During the next seven days, Intelsat 30 will go to the fueling facility where its tanks will be filled with fuel and oxidizer. This is a hazardous operation with toxic chemicals and SSL's technicians are required to wear SCAPE suits to protect themselves during this process.
Intelsat 30 is scheduled to be launched on an Ariane V launch vehicle, along with another satellite, Arsat 1. A dual launch such as this brings with it some specific considerations, which I'll explain in my next post.

Source: http://www.intelsat.com/blog/intelsat-launches-blog/intelsat-30-dla-1-the-journey-begins


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## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

Preparations Continue for the Intelsat 30/DLA-1 Launch







_By Jon Harborne, Senior Manager, Intelsat Spacecraft Program Office_
_Second in a series from Intelsat team members overseeing the launch of Intelsat 30, which is hosting the DLA-1 payload for DirecTV Latin America._
Things here in French Guiana are proceeding as planned. Intelsat 30/DLA-1 (IS-30/DLA-1) has successfully completed electrical testing, the propulsion system checks are in process and preparation activities are underway for filling the propellant tanks.
Our co-passenger Arsat-1 has completed its electrical tests, and is on track for its fueling operations, and the launch vehicle is undergoing system validation checks in the BIL (French acronym for Batiment d'Intégration Lanceur).
After the tanks of IS-30/DLA-1 have been loaded with fuel and oxidizer, the focus of the campaign will shift to integration of the satellite and its co-passenger, Arsat-1, onto the Ariane V launch vehicle. IS-30/DLA-1 will ride in the upper position on the launch vehicle, separated from Arsat-1 by a structure known by the French acronym, SYLDA (Système de Lancement Double Ariane).
The integration will take place in a tall building known as the BAF (French acronym for Final Assembly Building). First, IS-30/DLA-1 will be attached on top of the SYLDA, then the rocket fairing will be placed over the satellite and SYLDA. It may sound simple, but this series of steps takes five days to complete and must be performed very carefully with cross-checks at every stage.
After the integration of IS-30/DLA-1 is complete, the satellite and its co-passenger will be attached to the launch vehicle. Arsat-1 will be attached first, and then the composite of IS-30/DLA-1, the SYLDA and fairing will be integrated on top. This will bring us up to a week before the launch date.
During the final days prior to the launch, we will be busy with a launch day "dress rehearsal," transfer of the rocket from the BAF to the launch pad, final preparations, fuelling of the rocket and then, the launch itself!
Pictured, Jon in front of the satellite as it was being unloaded at Cayenne Airport.

Source: http://www.intelsat.com/blog/intelsat-launches-blog/preparations-continue-for-the-intelsat-30dla-1-launch/


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

egakagoc2xi said:


> Satellite DLA-1 Intelsat 30 / DIRECTV Latin America 1
> 
> Finally, the FCC has granted authorization. The launch date has been confirmed for Octuber 16th and here are some pictures...


Some things never change.
The High Bays at SSL, Palo Alto, look exactly the same as they did 20 years ago.
Only the SATs look different.

BTW: they had to change their test range because they used to radiate the traffic on 101.
They now "bounce" off the walls of the high bay for their "compact" test range, and I bet the rush the hour traffic is healthier for it. :rolling:


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Some things never change.
> The High Bays at SSL, Palo Alto, look exactly the same as they did 20 years ago.
> Only the SATs look different.
> 
> ...


But I wonder how they do it, since I imagine any such antenna test range on earth would really be "compact" compared to the actual distances involved in earth-to-GSO orbits?

Do they take beam measurements at various points in the CATR downrange from the antennas under test and then through what I guess is mathematical modeling, extrapolate how the footprint will look on earth over 23, 000 mi. away?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> But I wonder how they do it, since I imagine any such antenna test range on earth would really be "compact" compared to the actual distances involved in earth-to-GSO orbits?
> 
> Do they take beam measurements at various points in the CATR downrange from the antennas under test and then through what I guess is mathematical modeling, extrapolate how the footprint will look on earth over 23, 000 mi. away?


The short answer is they're only doing a functional test. The antenna patterns are done before mating to the SAT at another location.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Update:

Intelsat 30/DLA-1 continues to move forth to launch on schedule. If fact so well they can afford some recreational downtime for the launch teams involved.



> Intelsat 30/DLA-1 Teams Come Together
> 
> By Jon Harborne, Senior Manager, Intelsat Spacecraft Program Office
> 
> ...


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

Why do some of those reflectors look bent?
Is this a fake picture?
Meaning, like a model version?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Probably not fully deploy that time when the shot been taken.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Probably not fully deploy that time when the shot been taken.


The problem there P. Smith is the FCC docs. for IS30/DLA-1 list a total of 6 reflector type antennas for the satellite which are all for the Ku band payload and only 4 are stated as "deployable." The other two are stated as "fixed" in position and do not deploy after launch.

These appear to be the 6 seen in the photo taken at the CATR. And compared with other photos where the deployable antennas are in stowed position for launch, it appears the four larger undistorted reflectors are the deployable ones, whereas the fixed ones are the somewhat bent looking ones as damondIt points out.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Update:
IS30/DLA-1 now fully fueled and attachment to the payload adapter (called "First Mate") successfully done.
Everything still on schedule for the Oct. 16 launch.



> Intelsat 30/DLA-1 Flight Mate: Check!
> 
> _By Todd Schilb, Program Manager, Space Systems Acquisition_
> _Fourth in a series from Intelsat team members overseeing the launch of Intelsat 30, which is hosting the DLA-1 payload for DirecTV Latin America._
> ...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> Everything still on schedule for the Oct. 16 launch.


Is it common to still have a sizeable launch window (111 minutes) this close to launch?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> Is it common to still have a sizeable launch window (111 minutes) this close to launch?


Where are you getting this 111 minute window from?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

I guess another technical note that should have been posted for IS30/DLA-1;

A 30 day STA request from 10/25/2014 - 11/24/14 was filed with the FCC by Intelsat back on 9/22/2014 for in orbit testing ("IOT") of IS30/DLA-1's Ku band payload at 132° WL using a 14.3m Ku band dish antenna at their uplink facility in Hagerstown, Md., (Specifically at their "Mountainside Teleport" http://www.intelsat.com/teleport/mountainside-teleport/) and granted on 10/6/2014.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr031b.hts?q_set=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number/%3D/SESSTA2014092200744&prepare=&column=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

View attachment 25450


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> Where are you getting this 111 minute window from?


From Salo's schedule.

Actually, it is a 51 minute window on his schedule. Someone else's schedule had the window at 20:00 to 21:51.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Encapsulation (under the fairing) and attachment to the SYLDA .... ....



> Encapsulating Intelsat 30/DLA-1 for Its Journey into Space
> _By Todd Schilb, Program Manager, Space Systems Acquisition_
> _Fifth in a series from Intelsat team members overseeing the launch of Intelsat 30, which is hosting the DLA-1 payload for DirecTV Latin America._
> The campaign continues to proceed without interruptions or delays, and in this phase, the build-up of the "stack" continues with transferring the satellite to the SYLDA (the Système de Lancement Double Ariane) structure (pictured) and encapsulating it under the fairing. This will be the last time IS-30 will be seen by human eyes on Earth. After more than three years of designing and building, this satellite is now ready to do its job. It's now up to the rocket to get us into transfer orbit where we will continue our journey to our final orbital location.
> ...


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## woj027 (Sep 3, 2007)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACDKdqBD3YQ


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Noce video! Thanks


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

For a nice summation of the main relevant activities and technicalities regarding the preparation and upcoming launch of flight VA220 for IS30/DLA-1 and the companion ArSat-1. Download the "Launch Kit" here;

View attachment 25486


To help those of us who are not rocket scientists follow along anyway ... 

EDIT Addendum: Again the numbers of transponders for IS30/DLA-1 listed in this document make no sense.

There's the oft-quoted strange 72 figure for the Ku band, where the transponder layout in the FCC docs. show 80.

And now "10 C-band" are stated where the FCC docs. have only 4.

But an otherwise good document for everything else that I can see.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Mission Update:
Flight VA220 carrying IS30/DLA-1 and ArSat-1 given final OK for launch Thursday.
http://www.arianespace.com/news-mission-update/2014/1224.asp
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> The fifth Arianespace Ariane 5 flight in 2014 has been given the "go" for its liftoff on Thursday following today's successful launch readiness review, conducted at the Spaceport in French Guiana.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

There's that 1:51 launch window again just hours before launch.

Salo revised his schedule accordingly.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> There's that 1:51 launch window again just hours before launch.
> 
> Salo revised his schedule accordingly.


Though for some reason the mission countdown clock on Intelsat's web-site is going almost 3 hours past the start of that 1:51 launch window beginning at 5:00 PM EST tomorrow.

Not sure what's up with that.

http://www.intelsat.com/infrastructure/satellites-and-coverage-maps/upcoming-launches/intelsat-30dla-1/


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Mission update:

Ariane 5 with payload now moved out to launch pad ELA-3. Picture shows it during the process of approaching the pad riding on it's giant "Mobile Launch Table."

All systems still go for launch on schedule tomorrow.

Ariane 5 is moved to the launch zone for Arianespace's fifth heavy-lift flight in 2014








The heavy-lift Ariane 5 with its Intelsat 30 and ARSAT-1 payloads approaches the Spaceport's ELA-3 launch zone during today's rollout.

*October 15, 2014 - Ariane Flight VA220*
The workhorse Ariane 5 for tomorrow's Arianespace mission from French Guiana is now ready for liftoff following its rollout to the Spaceport's ELA-3 launch complex.
Riding atop a mobile launch table, Ariane 5 was transferred earlier today from the Spaceport's Final Assembly Building - where this vehicle received its dual-satellite payload. With the rollout now completed, the final countdown will begin for an October 16 liftoff at the start of a 1-hour, 51-minute launch window opening at 6:00 p.m. local time in French Guiana.
This fifth Ariane 5 mission in 2014 has an estimated payload performance of 10,000 kg., which includes a combined total of approximately 9,300 kg. for the two passengers - Intelsat 30, hosting the DLA-1 payload, and ARSAT-1 - as well as the launcher's SYLDA dual-passenger dispenser system and satellite integration hardware.
Riding as the upper passenger in Ariane 5's payload arrangement is Intelsat 30, which will be released at approximately 27 minutes into the flight. This spacecraft was built by SSL (Space Systems/Loral) for Intelsat and will operate from an orbital position of 95 deg. West - from which it is to greatly expand direct-to-home entertainment offerings in Latin America, as well as provide backup and restoration services.
ARSAT-1 - the first geostationary satellite built in Argentina, produced by INVAP for ARSAT (Empresa Argentina de Soluciones Satelitales Sociedad Anonima) - will be deployed from Ariane 5's lower passenger position at approximately 33 minutes after liftoff. From an orbital position of 71.8 deg. West, ARSAT-1 will deliver a wide range of telecommunications, data transmission, telephone and television services across all of Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Paraguay.
Tomorrow's mission is designated VA220 in Arianespace's launcher family numbering system, signifying the 220th flight of an Ariane family vehicle since 1979. 
http://www.arianespace.com/news-mission-update/2014/1226.asp


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Final installment from Intelsat blog for IS30/DLA-1 from the launch team at Arianespace in Guiana;

Reports much the same as the previous post.

Intelsat 30/DLA-1 Ready for Liftoff!







_By Todd Schilb, Program Manager, Space Systems Acquisition_
_Sixth in a series from Intelsat team members overseeing the launch of Intelsat 30, which is hosting the DLA-1 payload for DirecTV Latin America._
This is the final blog installment for the Intelsat 30 launch campaign. We have completed the final launch readiness review and all systems are ready to go for a launch attempt at the opening of the launch window at 21:00 UTC on 16 October 2014.
Here you can see the launch vehicle mounted on top of the launch table rolling out to the launch pad - this is about 2,500 metric tons of hardware moving down a railroad track.
Thanks for checking out the launch blog for Intelsat 30, and be sure to tune into the launch broadcast to view the launch live.

- See more at: http://www.intelsat.com/blog/intelsat-launches-blog/intelsat-30dla-1-ready-for-liftoff/#sthash.jXT2og0u.dpuf


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

harsh said:


> Is it common to still have a sizeable launch window (111 minutes) this close to launch?


Yes. T-Zero time, considered alone, is independent of the length of the window.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

LameLefty said:


> Yes. T-Zero time, considered alone, is independent of the length of the window.


I assume the launch window is what allows them to hold the countdown at 3 minutes or whatever while they check on something and then resume the countdown where they left off? So long as the hold doesn't exceed the length of the launch window, they're fine?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> I assume the launch window is what allows them to hold the countdown at 3 minutes or whatever while they check on something and then resume the countdown where they left off? So long as the hold doesn't exceed the length of the launch window, they're fine?


Yeah, in general something to that effect;

From my understanding, launch windows for commercial satellite launches like this anyway, is the time allotted for the launch to properly and safely take place due to possible variances in the countdown from things like technical glitches, weather conditions, availability of ground resources, down range air and ground clearance, availability of lighting (if needed) etc.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

And very important "safe corridor" to payloads and second stage of the vehicle from ground to destination.


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

The broadcast for the launch is on 9551 and starts at 4pm EDT.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

alnielsen said:


> The broadcast for the launch is on 9551 and starts at 4pm EDT.


Nice ...

I'm mildly surprised DIRECTV is even bothering to openly broadcast it here in the states considering that this satellite is only relevant to their Latin American service.

Anyway, also for those interested and not near their TVs, as a reminder the webcast from Arianespace for the launch is here;

http://www.arianespace.tv/

Begins at about 4:45 PM EST about 15 min before the opening of the launch window at 5:00 PM EST.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

alnielsen said:


> The broadcast for the launch is on 9551 and starts at *4pm EDT*.


Appears to be at 4:30 PM EST


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

alnielsen said:


> The broadcast for the launch is on 9551 and starts at 4pm EDT.


I am getting 721 on this channel.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

peds48 said:


> I am getting 721 on this channel.


Same here ....

Guess DIRECTV isn't going to let regular subs. see after all ....


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> Same here ....
> 
> Guess DIRECTV isn't going to let regular subs. see after all ....


Does the broadcast starts at 5, or is the take off at five? I am not getting any feed from the live webcast


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

On to the PC to watch the web-cast then



peds48 said:


> Does the broadcast starts at 5, or is the take off at five? I am not getting any feed from the live webcast


The web-cast is supposed to start at 4:45 PM which is 15 min. before the 1 hr. and 15 min launch window begins at at 5:00 EST


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

It's on now ...


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> It's on now ...


Thanks! Watching now


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm not getting either Directv 9551 or Arianespace streams.

edit: I've now got the internet stream.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Oh well ... in a hold at T-7 sec. right before the beginning of the "automated sequence" due to what looks like weather problems


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

It should be a spectacular night launch now.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wonder what the status board "no-go" red light on the IS30/DLA-1 satellite is about?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Not to jinx this, but if things go sour, (weather) can they cancel the launch?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

NM T-6


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

Countdown Resumed
I guess it will go now.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Yep, here we go ...


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Lift off!!!


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## DBSSTEPHEN (Oct 13, 2009)

What is that satellite for


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

DBSSTEPHEN said:


> What is that satellite for
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Mostly for DIRECTV Latin America;

Largely replacing and expanding the services of the old satellite there Galaxy 3C at 95W.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

P Smith said:


> And very important "safe corridor" to payloads and second stage of the vehicle from ground to destination.


That's a consideration but it's not a very constraining one. If it was, you couldn't ever have a continuous window - you'd have to have pauses and gaps throughout the window as multiple satellites passed through your so-called "safe corridor."

Rather, the biggest reasons to have specific launch windows for comsats is range availability - you can only clear downrange airspace and navigable waters for limited lengths of time, and your down-range tracking assets may not be available except inasmuch as you make sure the tracking stations are manned and ready, tracking aircraft or ships are positioned, you have time booked/arranged on high-capacity communications networks to relay that data back to the launch and spacecraft control centers, etc. Also, your launch team can only stay ready for a certain amount of time before they begin to lose their edge and need downtime.

A secondary reason is launch vehicle or GSE-related. Vehicle propellants are often cryogenic (at least the oxidizer) and LOX continually boiling off as the temperature rises in the tanks. That LOX escapes from pressure relief valves as gaseous oxygen, so LOX must be replenished. Launch complexes can only maintain that kind of flow for limited periods before they have to replenish the ground tanks. Further, the gaseous oxygen that escapes during tanking and launch preps is cold - that leads to ice condensation on the vehicle and extended low temps in and around the vent valves and such. Some components of the launcher and/or GSE may have limited cold-soak times and have to be allowed to warm back up. Those components may have to be inspected after the temperature cycle before the next launch attempt. Many times payloads are supplied with conditioned purge gases such as cool, dry N2 - again, the capacity of the ground systems to supply those purge gases continuously during the count and any hold times is limited by GSE.

And so on, and so on, and so on ...


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Are the TLE data reports available yet for Intelsat 30??
I have used Space-Track in the past but can't find any reports on yesterday's launch.

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

doctor j said:


> Are the TLE data reports available yet for Intelsat 30??
> I have used Space-Track in the past but can't find any reports on yesterday's launch.
> 
> Doctor j


I'm pretty sure it's one of these four most recent listed under celestrak;s (updated daily) "Launches in Last 30 Days" category http://www.celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/tle-new.txt.

But the problem is as you can see, they don't label the TLEs here by the name of the satellite. Only the international designator "2014-062A, B, C, and D."

So which one refers to IS30/DLA-1 and the others ArSat-1 or parts of the launcher, I don't know right now. At least at this early phase.

2014-062A
1 40271U 14062A 14289.95629022 -.00000524 00000-0 00000+0 0 33
2 40271 5.8684 180.4529 7273414 175.8483 31.2704 2.30104409 00

2014-062B
1 40272U 14062B 14289.95883551 -.00000533 00000-0 00000+0 0 22
2 40272 5.8528 180.3612 7275138 176.4139 32.9780 2.27367739 05

2014-062C
1 40273U 14062C 14289.96112388 -.00001258 10989-5 00000+0 0 13
2 40273 5.9845 177.7593 7276106 178.2991 35.5110 2.31610664 08

2014-062D
1 40274U 14062D 14289.96473029 -.00000524 00000-0 00000+0 0 19
2 40274 6.0286 177.7359 7278488 178.6362 38.1782 2.29656085 09


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Thank you.
I found these a bit ago and have j-sat images of the orbit but have forgotten how to get images into posts.
Haven't post any pix since D-12
What format for image?and how to post?
Doesn't seem obvious to me and can't find any help files on 'NEW" site

Doctor j


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

I suspect A and B are the payloads.
C and D may be the "2nd" stages.
Right now all 4 orbits are essentally the same
Doctor j


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Images of 4 "pieces" of yesterday's Arianspace launch.

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

doctor j said:


> I suspect A and B are the payloads.
> C and D may be the "2nd" stages.
> Right now all 4 orbits are essentally the same
> Doctor j


Yeah;

That's essentially what I'm thinking as well.

A and B are most likely the satellites (maybe A is IS30?) and C and D are likely from the launcher's upper stage and the SYLDA payload dispenser.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Anyone know how to turn OFF the "cone" in jsat tracker??
Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

So as not to be dogmatic since I can't be 100% certain yet, I'll still post all four of the most recent TLEs associated with the launch of IS30/DLA-1. But I really believe "2014-062A" (in red) is the satellite we're interested in since the "A" letter designation is used on all other Intelsat birds (whenever they contain a letter) in GEO listed by celestrak.

So keep your eye on it especially.

EDIT Note: While possibly foot in mouth, I see SatBeams is reporting that "2014-062B" is IS30/DLA-1. I'm not so sure though since SB has the NORAD catalog numbers reversed with 40271U as 2014-062B whereas celestrak has it as 2014-062A.

Therefore, I think SB has it wrong and still believe 2014-062A is actually IS30/DLA-1 and 2014-062B is ArSat-1.

*2014-062A*
*1 40271U 14062A 14290.71933376 -.00000536 00000-0 00000+0 0 65
2 40271 5.9509 178.4209 7281867 178.4961 296.6184 2.27821857 19*

2014-062B
1 40272U 14062B 14290.72543779 -.00000535 00000-0 00000+0 0 59
2 40272 5.9465 178.4166 7282075 178.5205 302.3804 2.28122903 18

2014-062C
1 40273U 14062C 14290.73869068 -.00000533 00000-0 00000+0 0 40
2 40273 6.0058 176.5669 7279556 180.3037 314.0810 2.28363568 11

2014-062D
1 40274U 14062D 14290.77369395 -.00000535 00000-0 00000+0 0 45
2 40274 5.9466 178.2965 7279839 178.6471 341.7439 2.27975221 15


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Just FYI, and not that Space-Trak is very vigilant in enforcing it, but the user agreement for obtaining TLE's states that you can use them for your own purposes but won't repost them (not sure what kind of sense that makes, but hey, it's the government ...). 

Anyway, NORAD/Space Command convention has been to generally designate the primary payload of a particular launch with the "A." Sometimes they get it wrong initially and later correct it.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

LameLefty said:


> Just FYI, and not that Space-Trak is very vigilant in enforcing it, but the user agreement for obtaining TLE's states that you can use them for your own purposes but won't repost them (not sure what kind of sense that makes, but hey, it's the government ...).


OK, well if the mods. warn me to stop then I will.

But I have to say regularly re-posting TLEs here on the board after a satellite launch has been a pretty common thing for a long time now of course ...


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> OK, well if the mods. warn me to stop then I will.
> 
> But I have to say regularly re-posting TLEs here on the board after a satellite launch has been a pretty common thing for a long time now of course ...


Yeah, I know; I probably did it myself more than once during the D10 and D11 days. They get posted all over the 'net. I'm just pointing out what Space-Trak says as a friendly FYI, just in case you're worried about it. I don't do it anymore, but that's me. YMMV.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Thought this would be an informative piece for the non-specialists (like most of us here  ) posted recently on the Intelsat blog summarizing the events following IS30/DLA-1's launch for the layman.

And even the professional might find it somewhat enlightening as well, at least as to how Intelsat does these things specifically.

Three Questions about a Satellite Launch Answered







_On the afternoon of the launch of the Intelsat 30 satellite, Jon Harborne, Senior Manager, Intelsat Spacecraft Program Office, answers some frequently asked questions about what happens during and just after the launch._
*Who controls the satellite when it's launched?*
It's a carefully choreographed sequence. First, the SSL (manufacturing) team in Kourou powers up the satellite 10 hours before launch and gets everything configured. Then, Arianespace (the launcher) starts the launch day countdown and loads the rocket with liquid oxygen and hydrogen. After that, if everything is looking good, the launch base goes into the final countdown phase and launches the rocket.
Once the boosters are ignited, the rocket takes off under the control of its flight computers, and climbs and accelerates for about 28 minutes before releasing the satellite. Then at the Intelsat Launch Control Center in Long Beach, Ca. (pictured), we watch for telemetry from one of our downrange ground stations. When we get a good signal we send commands to configure the satellite for the next phase: orbit-raising.
*What happens when the satellite is released from the rocket?*
The Ariane 5 rocket releases the satellite into a transfer orbit, which is an elliptical orbit that just clears the atmosphere at 240 km above the earth on its nearest approach (perigee), and goes out as far as about 36,000 km at its farthest point (apogee). In the orbit-raising phase, the controllers use the satellite's own propulsion system to boost the orbit to a circular path above the equator, with an altitude of just under 36,000 km. This is known as the geostationary orbit because in this orbit, satellites orbit the earth at the same rate as the earth rotates, and therefore appear to be stationary when viewed from the earth. This makes it easier for Intelsat to track them with a ground antenna pointing to a fixed point along the geostationary arc.
*How long does it take to get the satellite on orbit?*
Firing the satellite's main thruster when the satellite is at its apogee has the effect of raising the perigee, and by doing this four or five times, the perigee is raised to the same altitude as the apogee, resulting in a circular orbit. In the case of Intelsat 30, it is expected to take about eight days to accomplish the orbit raising.

- See more at: http://www.intelsat.com/blog/intelsat-launches-blog/three-questions-about-a-satellite-launch-answered/#sthash.Cw1VJPe4.dpuf


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

No new TLE since Friday evening.
Above suggested it might only take 8 days to get to Geostationary orbit.
Doesn't appear that any manuvers have started yet.
Impatient, I AM

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

doctor j said:


> No new TLE since Friday evening.
> Above suggested it might only take 8 days to get to Geostationary orbit.
> Doesn't appear that any manuvers have started yet.
> Impatient, I AM
> ...


There's been an update since Friday for 2014-062B I notice, which I think is ArSat-1.

2014-062B
1 40272U 14062B 14292.76788265 -.00000438 00000-0 00000+0 0 69
2 40272 5.9436 177.7575 7277451 180.0175 179.6537 2.28112632 69

But nothing for the other three, in particular 2014-062A which I'm pretty sure is IS30/DLA-1. So I just didn't bother to post anything.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Yes, I'm aware.
I've checked space track Q4 hours with no joy!!
I did see in one of the Arianespace blogs that Intelesat 30 was 2014-062A

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Yeah...

Just noticed the Russian "Zarya" website listing the COSPAR number as "2014-062A" as well.

Though it says "Designation and Catalog number are subject to confirmation" I think it's pretty safe at this point to exclude the other three pieces of the launch now and just post the TLE's and other related info. pertaining to just that one.

http://www.zarya.info/Diaries/Launches/Launches.php?year=2014


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Movement!
TLE 9 shows almost cicular orbir.
.3 degree inclination
Eccentricity .097
Located at 121 Longitude


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

doctor j said:


> Movement!
> TLE 9 shows almost cicular orbir.
> .3 degree inclination
> Eccentricity .097
> Located at 121 Longitude


Wow, was up all morning constantly checking celestrak for updates all to no avail;

Then just as I need to take a break away from the PC for the restroom and to make a cup of joe, the TLE for 2014-062A updates. lol

*2014-062A
1 40271U 14062A 14293.90231368 -.00000109 00000-0 00000+0 0 90
2 40271 0.3071 193.6032 0970352 162.1854 190.3627 1.15194671 85*

Wonder why TLEs 7 and 8 were not posted?

Anyhow, looks like the orbit raising may indeed reach GEO in about the 8 days as stated in the article. Though it does need to be moved over to 132 degrees west for IOT as stated in the filed STA.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Also, just now Space-Track. org has labeled 2014-062A as Intelsat 30

Doctor j


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

TLE 7 and 8

Sat B,C,D

0 ARSAT 1_7
1 40272U 14062B

0 ARIANE 5 R/B_5
1 40273U 14063C

0 ARIANE 5 DEB (SYLDA)_5
1 40274U 14062D

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

New TLE;

INTELSAT 30 (IS-30)
1 40271U 14062A 14294.32139309 -.00000100 00000-0 00000+0 0 102
2 40271 0.1688 194.7888 0325418 150.1927 359.0835 1.05029782 98

Orbit becoming even more equatorial, circular, and geostationay with inclination down to .1688 degrees, eccentricity to .0325, and mean revolution down to 1.050 revs/day


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

New TLE #11;

Not much change than previous.

*INTELSAT 30 (IS-30)*

*1 40271U 14062A 14295.22591506 -.00000129 00000-0 00000+0 0 115
2 40271 0.1684 194.6173 0324296 150.4660 341.0606 1.05049042 98*

Continuing toward GEO target of 35,786 km at 132° W.L. (for IOT) with approx. equal apogee/perigee of course.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

The Linux visualization program I'm using, GNOME Predict, places DLA-1 at -136W and about 570Km below the Clarke Belt so it should still be moving a bit.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

At 136 W longitude with sl eastward movement as circularization is nearing completion.
eccentricity down to .0324
inclination .168
Apogee x Perigee = 35824 vs 33173 KM

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

New TLE #12

INTELSAT 30 (IS-30)
1 40271U 14062A 14295.75408249 -.00000145 00000-0 00000+0 0 123
2 40271 0.1714 192.7057 0325056 152.4523 180.7148 1.05043707 100

No changes of significance, though for some reason inclination and eccentricity read a tad higher.

Apogee x perigee by the http://www.satellite-calculations.com/TLETracker/SatTracker.htm site reads from 35828 km x 33171 km.

Though I suppose I need to find a new satellite tracker program as this one extrapolating from the epoch of this TLE reads the satellite's current longitude at the time of my post as ~125W. Well past the understood IOT slot of 132W.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There is probably an update that we are not seeing yet ... based on the last TLE (12):

Epoch Wed Oct 22 14:05:52 EDT
Time elapsed since epoch: 15:34:54 (Calculations done at epoch unless noted)

Apogee 35828.37 Perigee 33170.86 Gap 2657.51 Average 1286.82 below Nominal

Satellite Longitude 136.7086 West (at Epoch)
Satellite Longitude 27.0261 East (at 05:40:47 EDT Thursday using this TLE)
Target Longitude 132 West +/-0.05
The satellite reached the target on Wednesday @ 8:56p EDT following the TLE shown.

Average Driftrate 16.5253 deg/day East


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Satellite Longitude 27.0261 East (at 05:40:47 EDT Thursday using this TLE)


That can't be right. Almost three hours later it is at 120W and still moving east.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> That can't be right. *Almost three hours later it is at 120W and still moving east.*


Oh ...

Then maybe the online calculator I used wasn't wrong about the longitude of the satellite being at 125W at the time of my previous post.

But I don't understand why Intelsat drifted it past the 132W IOT slot? 

Their 30 day STA for IOT and subsequent drifting over to the operational slot at 95.05W was granted to begin on 10/25 which seem to be right on schedule with the 136W position of the satellite doctor j posted yesterday.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> But I don't understand why Intelsat drifted it past the 132W IOT slot?


I don't get that either, but they may have dropped it into place with a subsequent burn that they haven't released a TLE for yet.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> I don't get that either, but they may have dropped it into place with a subsequent burn that they haven't released a TLE for yet.


After some more thought, this is my thinking as well (just wish my mind weren't slowing down these days  ).

As James said there must be a or some missing TLE(s) probably showing a stop at 132W in GEO now, And the satellite calculation programs are merely continuing to extrapolate where the satellite would have been had the orbital parameters of the last TLE (i.e. #12) not changed.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

As I recall, when a satellite is nearing its destination, there is a series of small adjustments and TLEs aren't released for these changes. When the satellite is stabilized, we'll get another TLE.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

TLE 13
Almost parked
Doctor j


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

10 INTELSAT 30_13
Lon 132.3246° W
Lat 0.0730° N
Alt (km) 35 463.670
Azm 241.6°
Elv 28.1°
RA 20h 34m 17s
Decl -5° 07' 29"
Range (km) 38 456.159
RRt (km/s) -0.009
Vel (km/s) 3.093
Direction Ascending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 342.1° (242)
TA 341.9°
Orbit # 12
Name 0 INTELSAT 30_13
NORAD # 40271
COSPAR designator 2014-062-A 
Epoch (UTC) 2014-10-23 18:11:41
Orbit # at Epoch 11
Inclination 0.072
RA of A. Node 267.862
Eccentricity 0.0045091
Argument of Perigee 64.494
Revs per day 1.00783761
Period 23h 48m 48s (1428.80 min)
Semi-major axis 42 022 km
Perigee x Apogee 35 454 x 35 833 km
BStar (drag term) 0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly 197.964
Propagation model SDP4
Element number / age 13 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS N/A
Diameters N/A
Satellite group N/A


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

bakers12 said:


> As I recall, when a satellite is nearing its destination, there is a series of small adjustments and TLEs aren't released for these changes. When the satellite is stabilized, we'll get another TLE.





doctor j said:


> TLE 13
> Almost parked
> Doctor j


Yep.

TLEs are released publicly for informational/educational purpose, not because we have some inherent right to know. I say that to remind folks not to get too stressed, worried or unduly concerned when there's a gap in a new elset or if the satellite seems (*) to be doing something that it shouldn't (i.e., overshooting or undershooting its target longitude).

To understand gaps or delays in releasing updated data, it helps to know how the element sets are created in the first place. The data released by Space-Trak can be derived from direct observation (optical, IR, radio Doppler or radar), tracking data provided by the satellite operator themselves based on inertial measurement, stellar observation, or 3D GPS measurements all made on-board the spacecraft and returned by telemetry, or some combination. Sometimes, there are delays between one type of observation and another, or errors in between the two which must be interpolated or otherwise harmonized/corrected for, and sometimes there are simply times when data cannot be collected in a timely manner because tracking assets have higher-priority targets to track and update.

(*) Based on projections from an outdated element set, as shown by consumer/hobbyist amateur tracking software.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> As James said there must be a or some missing TLE(s) probably showing a stop at 132W in GEO now, And the satellite calculation programs are merely continuing to extrapolate where the satellite would have been had the orbital parameters of the last TLE (i.e. #12) not changed.


The older the TLE the less reliable it is for predicting current location. The only location given is for the epoch ... the time stated for the TLE. The further one gets away from the epoch the less one can trust any prediction - especially during launch and initial positioning of the satellite.

TLE 13 doesn't show a stop ... but it certainly slowed down its movement. Based on TLE 13, the satellite will reach the target on Saturday @ 2:18a EDT. But there will certainly be more TLEs released before the satellite "stops" at 132.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

TLE 14
Still a bit of movement by simulation tracking but CLOSE:

Name 0 INTELSAT 30_14
NORAD # 40271
COSPAR designator 2014-062-A 
Epoch (UTC) 2014-10-24 05:21:54
Orbit # at Epoch 11
Inclination 0.068
RA of A. Node 260.653
Eccentricity 0.0046112
Argument of Perigee 71.408
Revs per day 1.00798373
Period 23h 48m 35s (1428.58 min)
Semi-major axis 42 018 km
Perigee x Apogee 35 446 x 35 833 km
BStar (drag term) 0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly 7.162
Propagation model SDP4
Element number / age 14 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS N/A
Diameters N/A
Satellite group N/A

10 INTELSAT 30_14
Lon 132.7922° W
Lat 0.0224° S
Alt (km) 35 725.210
Azm 243.8°
Elv 25.7°
RA 05h 32m 54s
Decl -5° 11' 31"
Range (km) 38 943.541
RRt (km/s) 0.013
Vel (km/s) 3.074
Direction Descending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 116.6° (83)
TA 117.1°
Orbit # 11

Doctor j


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> The older the TLE the less reliable it is for predicting current location. The only location given is for the epoch ... the time stated for the TLE.


I don't think that's an fair assessment of what a TLE represents. The TLE is a model, not a data point. It is representative of the orbit until something is done physically to change the orbit.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

LameLefty said:


> (*) Based on projections from an outdated element set, as shown by consumer/hobbyist amateur tracking software.


To suggest that the TLE interpretation software available to the consumer/hobbyist is any less accurate than software that more technical people might use is elitist snobbery. TLEs are a straightforward mathematical model and as you're so fond of pointing out, they are derived from observations.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> I don't think that's an fair assessment of what a TLE represents. The TLE is a model, not a data point. It is representative of the orbit until something is done physically to change the orbit.


I thought the actual mathematical "model" were things like "SGP," "SGP4," "SDP4," "SGP8," "SDP8" ect. the various satellite calculation programs base their computations upon. Then when combined when input with the TLE data sets compute a satellite's position and speed at at any given point in it's orbit.

But whatever the case, I agree that AIUI an aging TLE is not the cause of inaccuracy in the predicted orbit results of a program as long as the orbit doesn't change since it's epoch. But the inaccuracies come from the accumulated errors of the programs themselves as they continue to extrapolate further away from that TLE's epoch.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

TLE 15 published
Only slight changes.
Still no "parked"

Doctor j


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

harsh said:


> I don't think that's an fair assessment of what a TLE represents. The TLE is a model, not a data point. It is representative of the orbit until something is done physically to change the orbit.


A TLE is a snapshot based on data as of a specific point in time. It is not a model. It's BASED on a model. But if you took time to actually learn the underlying mathematics (or just read HoTat2's post  ) you'd know that. Again, you're much better served to stick with what you KNOW not what you can regurgitate from a Google search.



harsh said:


> To suggest that the TLE interpretation software available to the consumer/hobbyist is any less accurate than software that more technical people might use is elitist snobbery.


Uh, no. It's not "elite snobbery." Real satellite operation pros generally use STK, usually with all the bells and whistles. It's both more accurate and FAR more capable than stuff downloaded from an open-source repository, or even things purchased.

But once again, you missed my point, which wasn't to knock hobbyist software (a lot of which is just fine for our purposes and a lot more accessible than STK) - rather, it was to point out that the TLE's available to the public are NOT the data satellite operators use to drive their own birds; they may use the data for other objects as part of their overall planning purposes - especially for objects in stable configurations and orbits which haven't changed significantly in weeks, months or years - but they do not use Space Command's "best guess" TLEs that are being release and discussed here to plan maneuvers and get status updates on their own spacecraft.. Instead, they'll use their own internal data (probably with something like STK and a real-time command/control software module interfaced to it).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> I don't think that's an fair assessment of what a TLE represents.


I agree that is your opinion - and disagree with your conclusion. The location at epoch is trivial given an accurate TLE. The location after epoch is a prediction based on the assumption that nothing changed. Assuming where a satellite is works OK for us amateurs. The professionals are not looking at TLEs to see where their satellites are. They know better.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

LameLefty said:


> A TLE is a snapshot based on data as of a specific point in time. It is not a model.


A TLE represents the non-variable parameters of a mathematical function that represents a dynamic model. It is derived from measurements but the only variable is time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_model

The model should be valid until some external influence (a burn) changes the non-variable parameters.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> The professionals are not looking at TLEs to see where their satellites are. They know better.


I don't disagree with this.

What I disagree with is your assertion that a TLE is only valid for an instant. If that were the case, they would simply give Euclidean or more likely polar coordinates and a simple vector to describe direction and speed.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

doctor j said:


> TLE 15 published
> Only slight changes.
> Still no "parked"
> 
> Doctor j


Since the 30 day STA for IOT and then transfer to it's actual licensed slot at 95.05W officially begins today. I wonder if the next TLE will show it parked?


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

harsh said:


> A TLE represents the non-variable parameters of a mathematical function that represents a dynamic model. It is derived from measurements but the only variable is time.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_model
> 
> The model should be valid until some external influence (a burn) changes the non-variable parameters.


Challenge: explain "non-variable", "parameter," "mathematical function" and "dynamic model." Without using a computer, based on your own education. 

And here's a hint to get you started: that definition is misleading you; the TLE isn't the "dynamic model" - the mathematical function is the dynamic model. But I'm sure you knew that already, right? You should've learned it in undergraduate orbital dynamics or spacecraft operations class. You did take those, right? After all, you sure do Google a good game ...


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

harsh said:


> I don't disagree with this.
> 
> What I disagree with is your assertion that a TLE is *only valid for an instant*. If that were the case, they would simply give Euclidean or more likely polar coordinates and a simple vector to describe direction and speed.


Once again, you're conflating concepts you apparently don't fully grasp.

A TLE represents a snapshot of an orbit; it is is a set of parameters that, when used with the corresponding mathematical model, depicts - to more or less accuracy, depending on any number of factors - the "best approximation" of an object's orbit AS OF THAT INSTANT. That mathematical model may be propagated forward in time to predict the location and the velocity of that object at some arbitrary future time, but again - only to a more or less accurate degree, depending on any number of factors.

Please, leave space navigation, satellite design, launch and operations to those who actually know what they're talking about. Correcting your misstatements, mistakes and outright errors provides us all with hours of amusement, but it does clutter up these threads.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> What I disagree with is your assertion that a TLE is only valid for an instant.


The TLE does not tell you what changed after the epoch ... which makes it more unreliable every instant that passes after the epoch. There could have been a controlled burn or total system failure. You won't know anything has changed until a new TLE is published.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> The TLE does not tell you what changed after the epoch ... which makes it more unreliable every instant that passes after the epoch. There could have been a controlled burn or total system failure. You won't know anything has changed until a new TLE is published.


The assumption is that nothing other than time changed. If the TLE shows movement, we know it isn't parked and won't be parked until another burn has happened.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

LameLefty said:


> Please, leave space navigation, satellite design, launch and operations to those who actually know what they're talking about. Correcting your misstatements, mistakes and outright errors provides us all with hours of amusement, but it does clutter up these threads.


The people that do all of these things don't live in an exclusive bubble that you seem to insist exists. We are all subject to the same laws of physics.

You're not generally correcting or improving anyone's understanding, only working overtime in an attempt to cast mine as incorrect.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

LameLefty said:


> Challenge: explain "non-variable", "parameter," "mathematical function" and "dynamic model."


The non-variable parameters of a TLE are the external inputs (burns). Absent these parameters, the orbit is reasonably well described by the TLE until a subsequent burn.

The magic of what I'm trying to do is that I'm not talking down to the audience or any particular member of it.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> The people that do all of these things don't live in an exclusive bubble that you seem to insist exists. We are all subject to the same laws of physics.
> 
> You're not generally correcting or improving anyone's understanding, only working overtime in an attempt to cast mine as incorrect.


He is improving the understanding of others, by pointing out where and how you're (as usual) wrong.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> The magic of what I'm trying to do is that I'm not talking down to the audience or any particular member of it.


I don't feel LameLefty is "talking down to the audience". He knows way more about this than I do, so I'm happy to listen to him. You may have slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that doesn't mean you know as much about this as he does.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> The assumption is that nothing other than time changed.


And as you have already agreed ... the people actually controlling the satellite are not working on assumptions.

TLEs available to the public are a fun way for us to see the characteristics of movement at each epoch. Don't take the fun out of it with false assumptions. The last available TLE (#15) is now over 53 hours old.

01 Thu Oct 16 18:57:03 EDT
02 Thu Oct 16 18:57:03 EDT
03 Thu Oct 16 18:57:03 EDT
04 Fri Oct 17 07:24:41 EDT
05 Fri Oct 17 10:38:24 EDT
06 Fri Oct 17 13:15:50 EDT - Driftrate 228.1713 deg/day East - Inclination 5.9509
07 Sun Oct 19 06:15:57 EDT - Driftrate 192.3722 deg/day East - Inclination 3.0928
08 Mon Oct 20 13:29:38 EDT - Longitude 179.1517 West (at Epoch) Driftrate 131.0083 deg/day East - Inclination 1.6043
09 Mon Oct 20 17:39:19 EDT - Longitude 168.9015 West (at Epoch) Driftrate 47.8362 deg/day East - Inclination 0.3071
10 Tue Oct 21 03:42:48 EDT
11 Wed Oct 22 01:25:19 EDT
12 Wed Oct 22 14:05:52 EDT - Longitude 136.7086 West (at Epoch) Driftrate 16.5253 deg/day East - Inclination 0.1714
13 Thu Oct 23 14:11:41 EDT - Longitude 134.7611 West (at Epoch) Driftrate 1.8351 deg/day East - Inclination 0.0723
[Note: Longitude 120.1167 West if you were still assuming TLE 12 at 14:14:41 on Thursday. When did the change occur? TLEs do not tell us that!]
14 Fri Oct 24 01:21:54 EDT
15 Fri Oct 24 07:24:21 EDT - Longitude 133.0399 West (at Epoch) Driftrate 1.9092 deg/day East - Inclination 0.0707

One can assume the satellite reached the target on Friday @ 8:28p EDT following the last TLE known. Or one can assume, as you suggest, that the satellite is still moving east at 1.9092 deg/day (as reported in the latest known TLE). I believe the first assumption is safer ... but we won't know until we see TLE #16 and #17, etc etc etc.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

LameLefty said:


> Please, leave space navigation, satellite design, launch and operations to those who actually know what they're talking about.


LameLefty does in fact have degrees and working experience in this field. He actually is a "rocket scientist" (among other things). I think it's great that we can benefit from his knowledge and first hand experience in this area.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> He is improving the understanding of others, by pointing out where and how you're (as usual) wrong.


Absent an understandable explanation of what the facts are, it isn't bettering anyone's (your's or mine) understanding.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> Absent an understandable explanation of what the facts are, it isn't bettering anyone's (your's or mine) understanding.


The explanation was understandable ... Now, lets get back to discussing the satellite launch and positioning instead of your personal lack of understanding.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

TLE 16 -> Parked 

1INTELSAT_30
Lon 132.0834° W
Lat 0.0604° S
Alt (km) 35 869.370
Azm 324.9°
Elv -38.5°
RA 11h 07m 20s
Decl -6° 23' 48"
Range (km) 45 924.890
RRt (km/s) 0.003
Vel (km/s) 3.069
Direction Descending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 154.4° (109)
TA 154.5°
Orbit # 15

Name INTELSAT_30
NORAD # 40271
COSPAR designator 2014-062-A 
Epoch (UTC) 2014-10-27 00:57:52
Orbit # at Epoch 14
Inclination 0.041
RA of A. Node 265.659
Eccentricity 0.0020749
Argument of Perigee 109.101
Revs per day 1.00256337
Period 23h 56m 19s (1436.32 min)
Semi-major axis 42 169 km
Perigee x Apogee 35 703 x 35 878 km
BStar (drag term) 0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly 262.915
Propagation model SDP4
Element number / age 16 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS N/A
Diameters N/A
Satellite group N/A

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

doctor j said:


> TLE 16 -> Parked
> 
> ... Doctor j


Now two days into the FCC approved STA period for testing and drifting over to the licensed slot, I would have hoped so by now ...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

That is real fast it seems.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

That's the beauty of an equatorial launch. Getting to GSO is quicker.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

An interesting aside is that there is NO reported movement of ARSAT 1

Doctor j


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

doctor j said:


> An interesting aside is that there is NO reported movement of ARSAT 1
> 
> Doctor j


DOA ? :eek2:


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

With the large number and way the Argentine contingent was celebrating at the GSC to the successful separation of Arsat -1 from the booster. I don't think the country's psyche could take the loss of their first satellite.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

doctor j said:


> An interesting aside is that there is NO reported movement of ARSAT 1


Argentina's 1st satellite reaches permanent orbit

Arsat-1, the first made-in-Argentina telecommunications satellite, completed over the weekend the last of five apogee maneuver firings that put it into its definitive geostationary orbit, operator Arsat told Efe Monday.

The 3-ton satellite, with a projected lifespan of 15 years, now orbits at an altitude of 35,736 kilometers and will support telephone, television and data transmissions in Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Paraguay.

Though in its permanent orbit, Arsat-1 is not yet operational, as the process of deploying solar panels and extending the antenna will take a few months, sources at Arsat said.

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/10/27/argentina-1st-satellite-reaches-permanent-orbit/


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Phew! What's a relief!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

doctor j said:


> An interesting aside is that there is NO reported movement of ARSAT 1


Going 9 days without an update does seem unusual but it also seems odd that the powers that be issued 6 TLEs in the 24 hours since Dr J declared DLA-1 parked. It may also be notable that even today, neither satellite has been added to the geo.txt TLE list (though it is understandable for ARSAT 1 given the stale TLE data).


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Phew! What's a relief!


I'll bet Orbital Sciences wish they could say the same about their failed Antares launch yesterday ....


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> Going 9 days without an update does seem unusual but it also seems odd that the powers that be issued 6 TLEs in the 24 hours since Dr J declared DLA-1 parked.


TLE updates for "stationary" satellites are not unheard of. 



harsh said:


> It may also be notable that even today, neither satellite has been added to the geo.txt TLE list (though it is understandable for ARSAT 1 given the stale TLE data).


I have TLE #10 at Tue Oct 28 16:27:50 EDT. Not too old.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> TLE updates for "stationary" satellites are not unheard of.


Occasional maintenance updates yes. A flurry of updates, not so much.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> Occasional maintenance updates yes. A flurry of updates, not so much.


Don't worry about it. The satellite is right where DirecTV wants it to be for testing.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

harsh said:


> Occasional maintenance updates yes. A flurry of updates, not so much.


So now you're an expert in Space-Track's procedures and public information releases? Is there NOTHING you don't know about spacecraft design, launch, and operations? Thanks for setting us all straight.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

doctor j said:


> An interesting aside is that there is NO reported movement of ARSAT 1
> 
> Doctor j


As might be expected
Several TLE's released on ARSAT 1 and it is "PARKED" in a Geostationary Orbit at 79.4 degrees w

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

James Long said:


> Don't worry about it. The satellite is right where DirecTV wants it to be for testing.


Or perhaps it's right where Intelsat wants it to be....

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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

doctor j said:


> As might be expected
> Several TLE's released on ARSAT 1 and it is "PARKED" in a Geostationary Orbit at 79.4 degrees w


Two TLEs in the last three days is hardly an abundance.

Are you seeing TLEs after 11 perchance? TLE 11 places ARSAT 1 at 79.9W as type.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It would be best to stick to one conspiracy theory ... "too many TLEs - there must be something wrong" or "not enough TLEs - there must be something wrong". The only thing the theories have in common is the wild ass guess that "there must be something wrong" when there is no evidence that there is anything wrong at all.

Both satellites launched successfully. Their owners are happy. There is no reason to try to stir up false rumors.

Keep calm and watch for updates.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> It would be best to stick to one conspiracy theory ... "too many TLEs - there must be something wrong" or "not enough TLEs - there must be something wrong".


You're the only one that has broached the "there must be something wrong" theory. I was headed down the path of "it must not have been truly parked if there's a bunch of subsequent TLEs in rapid succession".


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

LameLefty said:


> So now you're an expert in Space-Track's procedures and public information releases? Is there NOTHING you don't know about spacecraft design, launch, and operations? Thanks for setting us all straight.


He's preparing his FUD for D14 and D15's launches. I'm sure he'll suggest more than a few times that "something may be wrong with the satellite" or "Directv isn't following what they told the FCC they would" or that sort of thing, doing whatever he can to smear Directv until his "concerns" are shown to be groundless as usual.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Interesting article on the Intelsat blog from a "Mohinder Guru," their Senior Program Manager for Space Systems Acquisition describing the recent process of IS30's deployment and adjustment of its four main dish reflectors.

http://www.intelsat.com/blog/intelsat-launches-blog/deploying-a-satellites-reflectors-ready-for-service/

Man, .... even just for the single process of deploying these dishes the complexity involved is such you can indeed see why they call it "rocket science" .... 

Over my head ....


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Pyro-bolts still usable method of holding and releasing heavy deployable parts...


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Interesting blog post describing the IOT process going on for IS30

Testing Underway on Intelsat 30 Antenna
VA220 Decollage ariane 5 le 16/10/2014

In this blog post, Dan Heil, Senior Program Manager, Space Systems Acquisition, explains the start of the In-Orbit Test phase of the Intelsat 30 satellite that was launched into orbit recently.

"The Intelsat 30 satellite has now been eased into a temporary orbital location at 132 degrees West Longitude with the last of four small trim maneuver burns.
With its arrival at 132 WL, IS-30 has entered the next phase of the mission - payload testing or "IOT," an acronym for In-Orbit Test. This set of tests replicates testing performed during the building of the spacecraft and confirms the status and quality of each of the communications channels on the spacecraft. The Ku-band and C-band payload equipment, including more than 328 electronic units, has been turned on in preparation for the testing.
A team of controllers, ground station staff and satellite engineers has assembled in Intelsat's Tysons Corner, Va. satellite control center and Mountainside, Md. earth station for testing 24 hours a day for 15 days. Tests include a "quick look" on a few channels prior to "antenna cut" testing.
We take a quick look at the channels to make sure we have all of the test equipment set up correctly to allow for good antenna cuts. Antenna cuts are measurements taken of the antenna patterns as we rotate the spacecraft that are analogous to cutting through a cake and looking at the cross section.
In this case, we are figuratively rotating the cake (satellite) along the cut line and measuring the height of the cake (the RF power) from a fixed point (the ground station). We want to see that the pattern (the outside shape of the cake) matches the designed/measured pattern from when the antenna was tested at SSL.
The team will be measuring the satellite's transmit and receive antenna over several days, then the data will be analyzed."

- See more at: http://www.intelsat.com/blog/intelsat-launches-blog/testing-underway-on-intelsat-30-antenna/#sthash.dw8QZyJK.dpuf

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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Very interesting. So it does test for weeks it seems no matter what.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

yeah, weeks, not months ... if they will not do some experimental tests what definitely would take months


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> yeah, weeks, not months ... if they will not do some experimental tests what definitely would take months


Well, ...Intelsat hasn't filed any STAs for anything further than the original 30 day one from 10/25 to 11/24 for IOT and drifting to 95.05W. So we'll see ...

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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Did anyone else notice that TLE 35 places Intelsat 30 on the move? At the time of this post, it shows at 124.59W.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> Did anyone else notice that TLE 35 places Intelsat 30 on the move? At the time of this post, it shows at 124.59W.


Well ... their 30 day STA which ends on the 24th includes time for both testing AND moving. So I guess IOT has completed and they're now drifting it (eastward of course) over to its operational slot of 95.05W. Everything maybe running a little ahead of schedule I suppose.

Anyone got the altitude of the satellite at this point? Should be somewhat less than GEO for an eastward drift.

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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

INTELSAT 30_38
Lon 114.5257° W
Lat 0.0357° S
Alt (km) 35 479.090
Azm 223.6°
Elv 41.0°
RA 14h 27m 50s
Decl -5° 23' 55"
Range (km) 37 394.800
RRt (km/s) -0.002
Vel (km/s) 3.086
Direction Ascending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 358.6° (254)
TA 358.6°
Orbit # 31


Name: INTELSAT 30_38
NORAD # 40271
COSPAR designator 2014-062-A 
Epoch (UTC) 2014-11-12 20:20:26
Orbit # at Epoch 31
Inclination 0.032
RA of A. Node 262.017
Eccentricity 0.0002387
Argument of Perigee 320.186
Revs per day 1.01340359
Period 23h 40m 57s (1420.95 min)
Semi-major axis 41 868 km
Perigee x Apogee 35 480 x 35 500 km
BStar (drag term) 0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly 16.685
Propagation model SDP4
Element number / age 38 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS N/A
Diameters N/A
Satellite group N/A

IN 5 DAYS:

INTELSAT 30_38
Lon 95.2740° W
Lat 0.0182° S
Alt (km) 35 479.920
Azm 195.1°
Elv 49.9°
RA 16h 19m 14s
Decl -5° 28' 22"
Range (km) 36 770.353
RRt (km/s) -0.001
Vel (km/s) 3.086
Direction Ascending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 23.8° (17)
TA 23.8°
Orbit # 37

TLE 38 has it at 95 in 5 days

Doctor j


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

TLE #42 shows it still moving.
Should close in on 95 today
Hopefully the next few TLE's will confirm on station status

Doctor j


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Showing at 95.88W this morning. Still TLE 42.

The altitude (35482) is still pretty low so I'm thinking it is moving at a pretty good clip or we're about to see that a change or two have happened.


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## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

Now is at 94.98....obviously, something has happened xD


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

95W is a rather busy place (with Galaxy 3C and Spaceway 3 already there) so they probably have to do some cautious maneuvering to drop it in.

You'll notice that the longitude has moved a little off the Equator as well.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

At 91.15W according to TLE 45 and still headed East although the altitude has risen to 35601km (35787km is average for a Geo satellite).


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Rather than "cautious maneuvering", they're probably using the different different orbital speeds that result from different altitudes to minimize fuel usage for insertion. As opposed to doing a burn using fuel X to get to speed Y, allowing momentum to carry it into position, then doing another burn using fuel X to cancel out speed Y.

I'll bet they have software that accounts for the movement of all the other satellites in the area, and takes as input the number of days you are willing to wait to get into position and plots a minimum fuel usage path to arrive there.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Since they seem to be slotting the satellite in between two satellites that are pretty darn close together (.08 degrees), it appears from TLE 46 that they are powering it into position. Of course it is still .05 off the Equator.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

.08 degrees is almost 20 miles apart. It isn't all that close.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> .08 degrees is almost 20 miles apart. It isn't all that close.


Given the tolerances someone posted earlier, it may be closer (or further) than that.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

TLE #47 at 94.9
Still a little motion but just about home

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Latest Intelsat blog article recapping entire mission.

"Intelsat 30 Goes to Work"

Intelsat 30, hosting the DLA-1 payload for DirecTV Latin America, was launched on 16 October, and has started service at its location of 95° West. Jean-Luc Froeliger, Vice President, Satellite Operations and Engineering, discussed the five-and-a-half week journey from lift-off to service.

Tell us about the launch of IS-30. The space voyage of IS-30 began on 16 October in Kourou, French Guiana after a 45-minute delay due to weather and a spacecraft status issue that was resolved in record time. After a smooth 30-minute ride on the Ariane 5 launch vehicle, the satellite separated over the Indian Ocean at an altitude of about 1,000 kilometers. What happened after separation? Separation is when the work of the launch vehicle provider (Arianespace) ends and when the Intelsat Satellite Operations and Engineering staff takes over. First, we had the initial "Acquisition of Signal," or "AOS," which is the initial reception of live data from the satellite. AOS occurred about 10 minutes after separation, with the signal captured by a ground station in Hassan, India. For about 10 days, a team of approximately 35 Intelsat and Space System Loral engineers gathered in our Launch Control Center in Long Beach, California to maneuver the satellite to geostationary orbit at 36,000 kilometers altitude. During that phase, we deployed the solar arrays, confirming that the satellite will generate enough power to operate its mission. Next were the Apogee Maneuvers, a series of propulsion firings to raise the satellite to geostationary altitude. The next critical event was the deployment of the East and West antennas, also called "reflectors." The deployments had to occur at specific times during the day when the thermal conditions on the reflectors were optimal. Deployment of the four reflectors was accomplished successfully on 23 October. What happened next? During the two weeks following reflector deployments, Intelsat performed In Orbit Tests to check the various functions of the satellite. Then, beginning 8 November at the completion of the In Orbit Tests, the satellite was drifted from its test location at 132°W to its final orbital location at 95°W. The satellite arrived at its final orbital location on 19 November. The one month journey from launch to in service readiness (16 October to 19 November) was one of the shortest ever, thanks to the hard work and dedication of a many Intelsat employees. What is the take away of the IS-30 journey to 95°W? The satellite journey from launch to service is always an exciting time for our staff. The IS-30 journey was one of the smoothest we have experienced in years. All operations were performed as planned, the satellite behaved as expected or better, and the flight crew was on top of its game throughout the mission.










http://www.intelsat.com/blog/intelsat-launches-blog/intelsat-30-goes-to-work/

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Reading that,I'm more inclined to think: long IOT's period of D1x sats does hiding unpublising experiments.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Reading that,I'm more inclined to think: long IOT's period of D1x sats does hiding unpublising experiments.


If true, then I don't see how such secrecy would past muster with the FCC. When filing STA authorization requests for IOT the applicant has to make some mention of any additional testing or experiments unrelated to the primary one(s) stated in the requests as well, which are to take place during the authorization period.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

The article says that DLA-1 had two weeks of IOT. Directv has scheduled 30 days for D14, which has more bands and a whole bunch of spot beams, so twice the testing time doesn't seem unreasonable.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I could bet DTV will ask an extension of IOT D14/D15 ...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

They only filed the STA for the 30 day IOT a week ago today. If they felt like they needed longer, they would have filed for a 45 or 60 day STA.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> They only filed the STA for the 30 day IOT a week ago today. If they felt like they needed longer, they would have filed for a 45 or 60 day STA.


As I said, it probably isn't a good idea to put a lot of weight in the deadlines established in the filings. It would be a recent record to get it done on that timeline.

Such is not to suggest that it isn't possible (especially if they aren't going to use the spot beams right away) just not supported by history.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> As I said, it probably isn't a good idea to put a lot of weight in the deadlines established in the filings. It would be a recent record to get it done on that timeline.
> 
> Such is not to suggest that it isn't possible (especially if they aren't going to use the spot beams right away) just not supported by history.


Then they have to file for extensions to the original STA in such cases where more time is needed.

They also need a legitimate reason for the extension which shows no sign of it due to any sloppiness, incompetence, or dragging of feet.

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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

Time for the banging of foreheads on your desk:

The Latin folks have just had their receivers freshly updated, resulting in whole new Signal Strength displays. Based upon screen photos, here is what the new Network Decoder looks like.


note the display chart attached is only for Colombia - other Northen area countries may be different and certainly Southern area countries are expected to be very different. 
there is much conjecture that each country will have a unique TPN presentation, that is to be seen
updates for other ciountries are forthcoming as screen photos are provided
a new twist in the game: from the same Network, we now have very different SAT ant TPN presentations for SD devices as compared to HD devices - hence two charts
PanR2, for example, presents different TPNs to SD devices than it does to HD devices
for the SD presentations, PanR2 is referred to as Net 1; PanR1 is referred to as Net 0. For the HD presentations, no 'Net' reference is provided
notice that PanR1 for SD devices is a single display that melds signal strength displays for TPNs from two different satellites - another new twist
yes, the PanR2 presentation for HD devices is weird - showing four rows of six TPNs each
the signal strength values shown are 'for real' values
a new Net "SUR" has appeared, providing TPNs 41 to 64 (DLA1, Net 3) -- not to be confused with the now-departed 'beam sur'
a new Net "NORTE" has appeared, providing TPNs 65 to 72 (DLA1, Net 4)

Stay tuned in - Don't Turn That Dial....

**edit 1/10 - see an updated Decoder in post #174**


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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

Additional Information: Argentina

We now have SignalStrength Presentation photos from Argentina. The Network and TPN presentations are precisely the same as we see in Colombia. It may be that the Network Decoder in the previous post will suffice for all Panamericana countries and areas. While the display could be the same, the signal strengths and "n/a" entries will not be consistent.

Of interest in the Argentine photos, we have 8 TPNs in the range of 41 to 88 which have signal strength values in the high 90's. This could be our very first indication that DLA1 has a heartbeat.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Yeah Gary;

Confusing indeed in some ways, yet makes sense in others from what I see.

It is logical for the "Pan-Regional 1" beam xpndrs (16 occupying 11.450 - 11.7 Ghz) from IS-30 to replace the old beam Oeste. And the "Pan-Regional 2" beam ones (16 from 11.95 - 12.2 Ghz) to replace the former Beam Sur since they have virtually the same frequency ranges. Though the "source" in the chart for them should be saying "DLA-1" solely or as a contributor along with G3C.

And it appears the new Beam Sur and Norte refer to IS30's xpndrs of "Regional" (note not "Pan-Regional") Beams 3 and 4 for Sur focused on the southern part of S.A. And Beams 1 and 2 for Norte aimed at the northern half, each with 24 xpndrs.

So to summarize;

Net 0 - Pan-Regional 1
Net 1 - Pan-Regional 2
Net 2 - formally Beam PR - defunct 
Net 3 - Regional Beams 3/4 or Beam Sur
Net 4 - Regional Beams 1/2 or Beam Norte

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Gary Toma said:


> ...
> 
> Of interest in the Argentine photos, we have 8 TPNs in the range of 41 to 88 which have signal strength values in the high 90's. This could be our very first indication that DLA1 has a heartbeat.


As well as the fact that the Pan-Regional 1 and 2 xpndrs must be coming wholly or at least in part from DLA-1 too since G3C's equivalent xpndrs are not so titled. Nor does G3C have 16 xpndrs in the same frequency range as does Pan-Regional 2, but only 12 which were formally used by the old Beam Sur.

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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

Here is another guess at the Latin Network Decoder. At this moment, we are just trying to make sense of the new Latin Signal Strength displays.

So -- a deduction using reverse Polish logic: 
In the PanR1 and PanR2 Networks, we have different TPN presentations for SD receivers as opposed to HD receivers. Comparing TPNs, the MPEG2-Only receivers are unable to receive 9 TPNs that are available to the HD (MPEG4) receivers. These 9 TPNs are most logically providing MPEG4 data that the SD receivers cannot digest. And the next leap of faith: one might suspect that it is DLA1 providing these 9 MPEG4 TPNs, while G3C is continuing to provide the MPEG2 signals.

Going forward, G3C may stay in business, or TPN by TPN it may be migrated to DLA1. We will have to wait and see.


EDIT: 2/10/15
The attachment has been removed. See the most current Latin TPN Map for the most current and most accurate information.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

You can see what G3C tpns are MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 at http://www.lyngsat.com/Galaxy-3C.html. They don't have IS30/DLA-1 data yet, unfortunately.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Gary Toma said:


> .....
> 
> Of interest in the Argentine photos, we have 8 TPNs in the range of 41 to 88 which have signal strength values in the high 90's. This could be our very first indication that DLA1 has a heartbeat.


Gary, are all these 8 active xpndrs in the 41-88 channel range for the Argentine display specifically in the 41-64 channel part of it, or the new "Beam Sur" (i.e. Net 3)?

Since it is in Argentina or the south of the continent. ...

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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Gary, are all these 8 active xpndrs in the 41-88 channel range for the Argentine display specifically in the 41-64 channel part of it, or the new "Beam Sur" (i.e. Net 3)?
> 
> Since it is in Argentina or the south of the continent. ...
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


There are six in Net 3, SUR:
TPN 53, 54, 55, 56, 58, 60

There are two in Net 4, NORTE:
TPN 65, 68

The signal strength values are strong: one at 91 and 7 at 95 or higher. At this moment, all the other TPN values from 41 to 88 are zero; there are no N/A entries.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Gary Toma said:


> There are six in Net 3, SUR:
> TPN 53, 54, 55, 56, 58, 60
> 
> There are two in Net 4, NORTE:
> ...


Oh well, Thanks anyway

Sign ....

Back to the drawing board I guess as those last two transponder readings from Net 4 sort of blows a hole in my theory. That NORTE might be for the "North" portion of SA and refers to the 24 36 MHz wide transponders transmitted on Regional Beam 1 or 2.

And SUR was for "South" portion of SA and are the 24 36 MHz wide xpndrs transmitted on Regional Beam 3 or 4.

But if that's the case then why is Argentina which is well in the south of the continent receiving strong xpndr signals from Beam NORTE?


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## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

I have a different theory...

Those 2 TP from the north are the same from the south, I mean their equivalent.

Remember that both network 4 and 5 have the same configuration on the TP.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

egakagoc2xi said:


> I have a different theory...
> 
> Those 2 TP from the north are the same from the south, I mean their equivalent.
> 
> Remember that both network 4 and 5 have the same configuration on the TP.


What is Network 5?

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## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

I made that mistake before...

I meant fifth xD 

Network 3 and 4


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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

The TPN Map thread has updated data as DLA1 is coming alive !


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

egakagoc2xi said:


> I made that mistake before...
> 
> I meant fifth xD
> 
> Network 3 and 4


Yeah ...

After some thought on the way channels are appearing on DLA-1, I wonder if its something to the effect of Network 3 or Sur is xpndrs 41-52 occupying the new Ku-lo band between 10.950-11.2 GHz and xpndrs 53-64 on the Ku-hi band between 11.7-11.95 GHz

These two 12 xpndr groups (for a total of 24) is then in some way apportioned over two regional downlink beams labeled numbers 3 and 4 boresighted on southern portions of S.A.

Norte or Network 4 seems to be reversed with its higher number of 12 xpndrs, 77-88 converted down from their uplink to the Ku-lo band of 10.950-11.2 GHz. And the lower 12 xpndr numbers 65-76 are on the Ku-hi band between 11.7-11.95 Ghz.

And these two 12 xpndr groups (or 24 in total) are distributed over regional beams 1 and 2 aimed at northern portions of S.A. and parts of the Caribbean near adjacent to the continent.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

And to add to this;

If my assumptions are correct here, then based on the listings of active xpndrs with programming in the latest release of the LA TPN maps, the new Ku low band (10.950-11.2 GHz) available to Sur and Norte are not in use yet. Nor do there appear to be any channels in testing yet on those xpndrs (41-52 for Sur, 77-88 for Norte) under the hybrid tab.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

UPDATE:

After being very gratefully provided more definitive imformation on this. I find my speculations posted earlier here about DLA-1's regional xpndrs to be accurate.

Xpndrs 53-64 of beams Sur and 65-76 of beams Norte downlink within the conventional Ku band of 11.7-11.95 GHz. 

And while unused at this rime, xpndrs 41-52 of Sur and 77-88 of Norte downlink in the new (for DLA) extended Ku band range of 10.950-11.2 GHz.

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"the conventional *US* Ku band of 11.7-11.95 GHz" - in whole world useable Ku band is 10.7-12.75 GHz


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> "the conventional *US* Ku band of 11.7-11.95 GHz" - in whole world useable Ku band is 10.7-12.75 GHz


Yeah, but then it's very contextually dependent when speaking of band names which leads to confusion at times.

Just like while yours may refer to the entire downlink Ku band. It's frequently divided into the "extended" Ku band usually from 10.7-11.7 GHz. The very popular "standard" Ku band from 11.7-12.2 GHz. And then the BSS or broadcast portion of the Ku band from 12.2-12.7 (or sometimes 12.75) GHz. All three portions many times loosely referred to simply as the "Ku band."

Then in the context of the new DLA LNBF, the downlink from 10.95-11.2 GHz is considered the Ku-lo band and the range from 11.450-12.2 GHz the Ku-hi band.

As I said, very contextually based and confusing.

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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

I've been retired for a while, but when I was working in the aerospace industry, we always referred to the frequencies between 8.2 and 12.4 GHz as X band. Ku band was from 12.4-18.0, K band from 18.0-26.0 and Ka band from 26 to 40 GHz. These were based on the bandwidth of various waveguide sizes, but I guess that is old-school nomenclature.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Time brought new definitions


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

bobnielsen said:


> I've been retired for a while, but when I was working in the aerospace industry, we always referred to the frequencies between 8.2 and 12.4 GHz as X band. Ku band was from 12.4-18.0, K band from 18.0-26.0 and Ka band from 26 to 40 GHz. These were based on the bandwidth of various waveguide sizes, but I guess that is old-school nomenclature.


Those were actually the IEEE (we called it the IRE then) band designations for that portion of the microwave spectrum I was taught in college back in the early '80s as well.

Though we much more frequently used the ITU band designators ... HF/VHF/UHF/SHF/EHF

This is why I could never quite see how DIRECTV and other services claim of "Ka band" (meaning "K above") operation completely fits since only the uplink side really falls in the Ka band proper. Both downlink sub-bands are actually in the lower "K band" range.

Unless Ka just refers to the uplink side of the service.

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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Launch VA223 has been given a launch window of 21:35 to 22:37 (zulu) on May 20th.


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## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

harsh said:


> Launch VA223 has been given a launch window of 21:35 to 22:37 (zulu) on May 20th.


DLA-2?

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

egakagoc2xi said:


> DLA-2?
> 
> Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


No, that launch window is for the upcoming DIRECTV-15 (along with SKYMex-1).

Harsh posted in the wrong thread ....

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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> Harsh posted in the wrong thread ....


Whoopsie!


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## ganjero (Nov 8, 2015)

Is there a way to catch these birds (DLA-1 and DLA-2) from FL? Thanks


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

ganjero said:


> Is there a way to catch these bird (DLA-1 and DLA-2) from FL? Thanks


Well DLA-2 (IS-31) hasn't even been launched yet;

But for DLA-1, particularly with the standard 24 in. dish used down south, perhaps some of the xpndrs you may be able to receive off their beam edges such as the Pan-Regional 1&2 sets of xpndrs.

But the new Regional beam xpndrs of Norte and Sur are doubtful as they are mainly focused on the northern and southern halves of S.A.

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## ganjero (Nov 8, 2015)

HoTat2 said:


> Well DLA-2 (IS-31) hasn't even been launched yet;
> 
> But for DLA-1, particularly with the standard 24 in. dish used down south, perhaps some of the xpndrs you may be able to receive off their beam edges such as the Pan-Regional 1&2 sets of xpndrs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply.....Would a 48in dish give me better signal than a 36in when trying to catch these?

Thaks


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

yes - bigger is better, it will collect more enrgy,
but be sure your LNBF's and bigger dish's F/D factor are the same


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

ganjero said:


> Thanks for the reply.....Would a 48in dish give me better signal than a 36in when trying to catch these?
> 
> Thaks


Any news ? How's your bigger dish performing ? How many tpns/channels you got now?


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## Ivanem23 (Aug 25, 2015)

Testing Network 4 

Enviado desde mi XT1068 mediante Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Ivanem23 said:


> Testing Network 4
> 
> Enviado desde mi XT1068 mediante Tapatalk


What about "Testing Network 4?"

(which are Regional x'pndrs comprising "Beam Norte" if IIRC) ...

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## Ivanem23 (Aug 25, 2015)

Colombia. Deco HD DVR LHR22

































SD Decoder L14




























Enviado desde mi XT1068 mediante Tapatalk


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

That's great info
I hope our team can use it.
Thank you

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Thanks for these as well ...

Ever since the loss of our invaluable LA correspondent egakagoc2xi, haven't had much info. from DLA.

Still puzzled what the XPNDR readings from Beam SUR (Net. 3) are about with you being well north up in Columbia covered only by NORTE (Net. 4).

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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

Ivanem23,

Thank you very much for the Signal Strength screen shots. With your receiver in Barranquilla, I too, am at a loss to explain how you are getting such a great signal from Beam Sur. A few months ago, our colleague in Cartagena could not receive anything from Beam Sur.

If you go to the Beam Footprints for DLA-1, remember they crossed up the beam naming convention: So Beam Norte, Logical Network 4, is labeled as Beam Footprints R3xx. And Beam Sur, Logical Network 3, is labeled as Beam Footprints R4xx. Two engineering departments apparently didn't talk to each other. Yes, very confusing.

We are working to get an accurate -and regular- data input for DLA once again.


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## egakagoc2xi (Jul 1, 2010)

HoTat2 said:


> Thanks for these as well ...
> 
> Ever since the loss of our invaluable LA correspondent egakagoc2xi, haven't had much info. from DLA.
> 
> ...


I've been traveling as crazy....

But it seems I will be going to Argentina and Colombia by the end of September or mid October...I will get data from DLA.

I also know I'm in debt with SkyMx Data

Regards,

Enviado desde mi iPad utilizando Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

egakagoc2xi said:


> I've been traveling as crazy....
> 
> But it seems I will be going to Argentina and Colombia by the end of September or mid October...I will get data from DLA.
> 
> ...


Hey, great to hear from you ...

And look forward to the DLA updates ...

Since you've been with Sky Mex. for a long time now, any chance you know specifically how that new dual-stacked 76/79W LNBF for the service operates?

The only example photos we have of it's installation show it's two outputs connected to the 13/18 + 22KHz tone generating inputs of a DIRECTV SWiM-8 module which is rather nonsensical for how such LNBFs of that type normally operate.

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## Ivanem23 (Aug 25, 2015)

Hello they sending hot I greet

I attach photos of the last movements of the network 4 (North) in Directv Latin America

SD Colombia (Decodificador L14/100)










Decodificador HD DVR LHR26/100 Colombia










Decodificador HD DVR Uruguay 









HD DVR Uruguay Red 4








HD DVR LHR26/100 COLOMBIA RED 4


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Ivanem23 said:


> Hello they sending hot I greet
> 
> I attach photos of the last movements of the network 4 (North) in Directv Latin America
> 
> ...


Thanks for these uploads ...

As I said, we don't get much news of the lastest from DLA since the loss of our correspondent "egakagoc2xi."

Strange how the Pan-regional 1 beam now list "17" TPNs, which I guess may explain why the Regional beam Norte is now at only "23" with TPN 88 now reading "N/A."

Has Norte's regional TPN 88 been reassigned to the Pan-regional 1 group or something?

While difficult to see in the photo, there appears to be an unlabeled signal level showing in the first slot of a sixth signal level row on the Pan-regional 1 screen, but only for Uruguay.

The Pan-regional 1 screen for Columbia however doesn't show this, and has only 16 TPNs on the first two of five signal level rows.

Strange ....

I wonder if Sur is now at 23 TPNs as well, with one of its TPNs moved to Pan-regional 2 group .

And of course, unless it's just some kind of spurious response on Norte's screen since Sur use the same frequencies and rely on geographical separation to avoid mutual interference. I still don't understand why you get any signal levels on the Norte screen in Uruguay which is well to the south within Regional beam Sur's footprint.

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## Ivanem23 (Aug 25, 2015)

Hello good afternoon
I bring this line up of how they are organized HD Directv LA Colombia, I am a little limited the scan I have made with a very basic software that I facilitate and I teach to use a friend, I leave to see that transponders are using For HD and network distribution in this segment, my decoder is a LHR26 / 100 using LNB (new for DLA1 and 2) wnc 10.95-11.2ghz 11.46-12.2ghz using 60cm antenna
in the line up missing two channels PPV HD (1402 and 1404) that are not available this day because they are active channels for the MLB Extra Innings, which allows us to understand that regional networks do not have enough space for The channels for this are forced to remove the PPV channels
























North Network Test Channels Transponders 80 and 81


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Ivanem23 said:


> in the line up missing two channels PPV HD (1402 and 1404) that are not available this day because they are active channels for the MLB Extra Innings, which allows us to understand that regional networks do not have enough space for The channels for this are forced to remove the PPV channels


That is how they manage them in the US too. It doesn't make sense to devote full time slots to part time sports channels like MLBEI, so they manage the need for such channels by adding/removing PPV slots as required.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Ivanem23 said:


> Hello good afternoon
> I bring this line up of how they are organized HD Directv LA Colombia, I am a little limited the scan I have made with a very basic software that I facilitate and I teach to use a friend, I leave to see that transponders are using For HD and network distribution in this segment, my decoder is a LHR26 / 100 using LNB (new for DLA1 and 2) wnc 10.95-11.2ghz 11.46-12.2ghz using 60cm antenna
> in the line up missing two channels PPV HD (1402 and 1404) that are not available this day because they are active channels for the MLB Extra Innings, which allows us to understand that regional networks do not have enough space for The channels for this are forced to remove the PPV channels
> 
> ...


Thanks again for the info ...

Still I see little to nothing going on yet with the new extended Ku band 10.95 - 11.2 GHz used by regional tps. 77 - 88 for Beam Norte (Net. 4).

And don't know about Beam Sur (Net. 3) tps. 41 - 52, but would assume pretty much the same level of inactivity.

But I guess why bother if there is still a lot of capacity on the 11.7 - 11.95 GHz band regional tps. 65 - 76 for Norte and 53 - 64 for Sur?

Plus any real late subs. who haven't yet converted to the new SF6-LA LNB can still receive virtually all programming with the old SF4-LA. I guess

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Also don't understand the discrepancy between the MPEG2 L14 reading levels on tps. 73, 75, and 80 for Norte.

And the MPEG 2/4 L26 showing levels on 74 and 79 with zeros for 73, 75, and 80.

Unless possibly the L14 was in a different location than the L26 when these readings were photographed and therefore each were under a different regional downlink beam for Norte.

(Reminder Note: According to the FCC docs. both Networks Norte and Sur are comprised of up to 24 regional tps. distributed over two overlapping downlink beams. Pair 1/2 and 3/4 respectively.

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## Ivanem23 (Aug 25, 2015)

HoTat2 said:


> Also don't understand the discrepancy between the MPEG2 L14 reading levels on tps. 73, 75, and 80 for Norte.
> 
> And the MPEG 2/4 L26 showing levels on 74 and 79 with zeros for 73, 75, and 80.
> 
> ...


It is something that I him demonstrated to my friend egakagoc2xi, they have Me mad with the behavior of these TPN, Now well from 2014 that I throw the DLA1 we have not had changes or significant advances in the networks, alone up to the arrival of the DLA2 they started reflecting changes in TPN's tables, Case opposite to SKY MEXICO that alone they spent 2 months of the launch of the SKM1 and already they were adding great content of channels HD


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