# Is anyone other than me thinking the R15 was a stop gap product?



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

As I learn more and more about the HR20 and from what I know about the R15, I'm beginning to think the R15 was a quick to market solution for DTV which they see as a throw away unit using throw away technology.

Take a look. The R15 was heavily based on the XTV product. Is very limited to it's capabilities and after 10 months on the market still does not function properly as a DVR.

On the other hand the HR20 was developed independently of the R15. No common code as we've been told. From posts he we see the R15 HD is a FAT32 based filesystem. The HR20 is Linux based. Many problems us R15 users have seen have been fixed on the HR20, plus limits have been increased.

So, a question to ponder. In SD land DTV went from the R10 to the R15. In the HD land DTV went from the HR10 to the HR20. Who, other than me, thinks the R15 was something DTV needed to come up with as their supply of R10s was running low? Who, other than me thinks the R15 will never work correctly and eventually a R20 will be released that is also Linux based like the HR20 using the HR20 code base? Who, other than me will be very pissed if this happens?

The last update the R15 received was 10D3 and that started release the beginning of August. Here we are in September and what do we have to expect for the R15? Is anyone still working on this old, outdated technology? What's the deal? We hear less and less from Earl as he's busy on the HR20 side with updates coming out weekly. But last I heard Earl knows nothing about any new update for the R15. Should we all send our R15's back to DTV and ask for a R10? Will we ever get another update for the R15 or will be all be upgrading to the R20 in the future?


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

I agree with you. I still never understood why D* wasted time and money with the R15. Instead, they should have kept the R10's around a bit longer and focused everything they had into getting the HR20 to market sooner with the fewest bugs and issues possible.


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## cybok0 (Jan 5, 2006)

I'm actually hopping for a new "R20" model, it seems to me that the R15 will never be capable of full dvr functionality. you said it all, the R15 HD is a FAT32 based filesystem. The HR20 is Linux based.

The TIVO units are Linux based and they are the cream of the crop.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

cybok0 said:


> I'm actually hopping for a new "R20" model, it seems to me that the R15 will never be capable of full dvr functionality. you said it all, the R15 HD is a FAT32 based filesystem. The HR20 is Linux based.
> 
> The TIVO units are Linux based and they are the cream of the crop.


But does D* really need to worry about making an R20? I mean technically the HR20 can be used as a SD DVR, it does have the outputs for it. Then when more and more channels go HD and a person upgrades to an HDTV, all they would have to do is flip a switch to output HD and not have to worry about getting a new box. This way D* could have one standardized DVR and work on making it the best one out there.

I don't know, just a thought.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Some people will never need the capacity and some people will not like the costs of a one size fits all DVR.

I don't think the R20 (an HR20 based solution) is coming anytime soon, since after the HR20 Earl said they'd be working on the Media Center and after that they'll probably be focusing on their next generation of receivers.


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## cybok0 (Jan 5, 2006)

theratpatrol said:


> But does D* really need to worry about making an R20? I mean technically the HR20 can be used as a SD DVR, it does have the outputs for it. Then when more and more channels go HD and a person upgrades to an HDTV, all they would have to do is flip a switch to output HD and not have to worry about getting a new box. This way D* could have one standardized DVR and work on making it the best one out there.
> 
> I don't know, just a thought.


It does make sense but the problem is the price. I cant afford 400 dollars for a dvr, I'm not going to get hi def for a long time.( I got a 32 inch Sony that does a fine job)
unlike a lot of people on this site I don't have a job that pays a lot of money to go out and drop a lot of money for hi def equipment.


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## Halo (Jan 13, 2006)

I was more optomistic a few months back. Not so much anymore.

A few things that concern me:
When the "Do You Want To Delete" bug was _fixed_ with the 10C8 update they did a pretty weird thing. Instead of fixing the bug they simply disabled the 'jump back' button that would trigger that bug. Why in the world would they do that????
That kludgy workaround doesn't exactly give me much confidence in the crew that works on the R15. They had half a freakin *year* to fix that glaring bug and all they can manage is to disable the 'jump back' button?

Now the whole issue with recordings locking up and going black screen. You can't *introduce* new bugs into an already buggy R15. That's going backwards.
The menus and guide response has clearly slowed with the last two updates. That was one of the bright spots of the R15.

Why ignore the glitchy and inconsistent 'jump back' button? C'mon. This is basic functionality here.

It's not all bad. Clear improvements have been made. My R15 usually does the job, just not without having to tolerate too many annoying issues that should have been fixed a long time ago.


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## klwillis (Apr 11, 2006)

I am waiting for my HR20 as we speak.
I will replace all my R15 units with the HR20.
When I learned the HR20 was based on Linux I immediately made the call to order it. The HR20 probably should also be used to replace the R15 connected to Standard Def TVs. The R15 is a unit that will never get better than it is now.
Oh yes I know the defenders of this unit say it has all the functionality of a tivo which in part I agree with. The but comes when you ask can you rely on this very poorly made and developed product to run problem free. Which shouldn't be that much to ask.

Keith


Wolffpack said:


> As I learn more and more about the HR20 and from what I know about the R15, I'm beginning to think the R15 was a quick to market solution for DTV which they see as a throw away unit using throw away technology.
> 
> Take a look. The R15 was heavily based on the XTV product. Is very limited to it's capabilities and after 10 months on the market still does not function properly as a DVR.
> 
> ...


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## cybok0 (Jan 5, 2006)

Halo said:


> I was more optomistic a few months back. Not so much anymore.
> 
> A few things that concern me:
> When the "Do You Want To Delete" bug was _fixed_ with the 10C8 update they did a pretty weird thing. Instead of fixing the bug they simply disabled the 'jump back' button that would trigger that bug. Why in the world would they do that????
> ...


The problem is were paying for a service that we shouldn't have all these problems.
The DTIVO doesn't have these problems. my first DTIVO was a Sony before the dual tuner capability and it *never* had problems like this R15.

my samsung DTivo is flawless. that's what I'm use to and *that's what I expect for service that I pay for.*:soapbox:


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## Slyster (May 17, 2005)

I am waiting for my HR20 as well.. HD is the future! Just go to any Best Buy or consumer electronics store.


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## MercurialIN (Jul 17, 2006)

I agree with you Wolffpack. I recently called D and asked some questions about the R15 I mentioned that I certainly hoped that they were not giving up on fixing the R 15 since the new HD DVR had come out. I was not exactly reassured that they hadn't given up on it. At that time I also expressed concern about upgrading to the new HD DVR from the HR10-250 in the future, fearing it would have the same problems the R 15 has and I was told that they are nothing alike. That the new HD DVR has very few if any bugs. I've heard this from two different D tech support people. I asked if I could replace the R 15 with the new DVR even though it would be on a SD TV and I was told only if I wanted to go to a retailer and pay about $400 for it. They would not send one out for a SD TV although they admitted that it would work with a SD television. Right now the HR 10 250 is the only reliable DVR I have. The new one may be great, but after the R 15 I am skittish about taking the chance. And even if I did trade in the 10-250 for the new HD DVR I would still be stuck with the R 15 on my SD set. So what would be the point. Like other posters to this thread I simply cannot afford to go out and purchase that new HD DVR to hook up to my standard defination TV. I really feel stuck with the R 15 and am running out of hope it will ever work as advertised by D. 

Yes I could go back to my owned R 10 but I lose 30 hours record time and the ability to record XM Satellite channels. And the caller ID feature and interactive channel. Although the caller ID feature has been dead for months now on the R 15 I still foolishly hope one day it will be fixed. Probably when "pigs fly" as they say. 

I still can't get it to set up an auto record for my favorite NFL team, it will pick up one game and local talk shows about the team, while completely ignoring other regular season games. At least it did the same thing to tech support when they tried to set up the same auto record on their "test" R 15. 

I've been thinking some of the same things Wolffpack just stated. I really don't know whether to hang onto the R15 and hope, or cut my loses, send the R 15 back and go back to my R 10 and give up the additional stress. And although I was told I could upgrade the HR 10-250 to the new HD DVR again I've been afraid to do so for fear of giving up the only reliable DVR I currently have. I wish I knew what to do.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

I posted here a few weeks ago that I thought eventually DirecTV will go the way of cable companies and offer only one DVR, the HR20. Comcast and others only have one DVR and its a dual use SD/HD one. While this might be more expensive to swap out, it would be a lot easier on the CSR's and tech depts.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

klwillis said:


> I will replace all my R15 units with the HR20.


How about the people that cant afford or dont think paying ($1200 for me to switch all my DVR's) to switch ?

If you dont need HDTV, its so much easier and cheaper to just hook back up your DirecTiVos. They work BETTER than either the R-15 or HR20, have no limits, way less SP/SL problems and their stability and reliability have been proven over the years.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> But last I heard Earl knows nothing about any new update for the R15.


There has to be an update coming and he did say it would fix the things the last update broke. Instead of rushing a new update to the west coast as soon as the east coast gets the old one, they are finally taking their time. We all know their beta testing lacks so maybe they are either testing it more or adding more to it so its taking longer.

We need to remember that Earl is not DirecTV and only passes on what they allow him to. How many times have some here shot the messenger ? Earl doesn't really need to be here as much as many here know enough to help the new people.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Bobman said:


> There has to be an update coming and he did say it would fix the things the last update broke. Instead of rushing a new update to the west coast as soon as the east coast gets the old one, they are finally taking their time. We all know their beta testing lacks so maybe they are either testing it more or adding more to it so its taking longer.
> 
> We need to remember that Earl is not DirecTV and only passes on what they allow him to. How many times have some here shot the messenger ? Earl doesn't really need to be here as much as many here know enough to help the new people.




The R15 is still a key product for them. There is no replacement fo rthe R15 on the horizon. There is an update being worked on (not sure what 10D4 is yet though, maybe during the work week I'll find out).


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

Who figured out that the HR20 is linux based? If that's true that does bode well for the HR20. I"ve been using the R15 for a week now and I'm strongly considering deactiving it, putting it in my closet, and hooking up my spare directivo. I do like the guide and there are some neat features, but it isn't even close to being a reliable dvr.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Gotcha has been experimenting with larger HDs in his HR20. Looking at the partitions on the drive there's one Linux Swap Space partition and two ext2 partitions.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62741


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> Gotcha has been experimenting with larger HDs in his HR20. Looking at the partitions on the drive there's one Linux Swap Space partition and two ext2 partitions.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62741


That's cool. I'm very willing to bet part of the R15's problems stem from the fact it uses a FAT32 derivative (read not reliable with large files).


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## Halo (Jan 13, 2006)

Also, I was searching for info about the HR20 and found some info on a online resume.
This guy works for Pace and was/is on the HR20/Hr21 developement team.



> I was working on the Linux Kernel (base version 2.6.12), Linux Device Driver layer (including PCI) in kernel
> space/interrupt context and the streaming of audio visual data to and from the Hard Drive which included supporting
> 'Trick Modes'.
> The software was written in 'C'/'C++' and ran on integrated MIPS R5000/R3000 processors under the Linux Kernel.
> ...


It also reveals that the main processor is a BCM7038 (with a BCM7411 to handle mpeg4).


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

A stop gap product implies there was a gap that needed to be stopped. There was not. DTV had and still has a viable Tivo based DVR. Even with the end of the agreement with Tivo they could and did continue to deploy and support them, so there was no need for an interim product. If the R15 is replaced quickly, it'll be because it is failure, not because it intended to be replaced quickly.


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## nneptune (Mar 30, 2006)

klwillis said:


> I am waiting for my HR20 as we speak.
> I will replace all my R15 units with the HR20.
> When I learned the HR20 was based on Linux I immediately made the call to order it. The HR20 probably should also be used to replace the R15 connected to Standard Def TVs. The R15 is a unit that will never get better than it is now.
> Oh yes I know the defenders of this unit say it has all the functionality of a tivo which in part I agree with. The but comes when you ask can you rely on this very poorly made and developed product to run problem free. Which shouldn't be that much to ask.
> ...


Exactly. I've come to despise the R15. It's about as good as it will ever be. I'm awaiting the HR20 as well, and use the R15 as a doorstop.
Truly, though I really don't have the money for it, I'm considering eating the cost, dropping D* altogether, and going back to E* and their MPEG4 DVR.
I've only been with D* since Feb. and I'm NOT impressed!


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

R15 deactivated, and DSR7000 activated. Now I can at least say I've tried the R15, but honestly it's not worth my time. DTiVos work, that's the bottom line. The HR20 sounds very promising, but we'll be an all DTiVo house until it's feasible to replace them with HR20s.

It's actually quite amazing that it sounds like HR20s are based on the 2.6 Linux Kernel (tivo and many other linux based systems are still based on 2.4 kernel.) It should be a rock solid machine once it gets past its growing pains. I also am every eager to see what the networking features will give us.


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## bnm81002 (Oct 2, 2004)

wow after reading this thread, it makes me more and more to get the R10 from Directv since they are offering me the choice of either the R10 or R15, seems like the Tivo-based DVR's are the better choice for now, correct?


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

bnm81002 said:


> wow after reading this thread, it makes me more and more to get the R10 from Directv since they are offering me the choice of either the R10 or R15, seems like the Tivo-based DVR's are the better choice for now, correct?


Is this your only dvr, or are you just looking for a machine to play with? If it's going to be your only dvr, go with the R10! I got the free R15 just so I could try it out and it just isn't nearly as reliable as my DirecTiVos. The R15 may get better, but at this point it doesn't seem likely.


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## bnm81002 (Oct 2, 2004)

skaeight said:


> Is this your only dvr, or are you just looking for a machine to play with? If it's going to be your only dvr, go with the R10! I got the free R15 just so I could try it out and it just isn't nearly as reliable as my DirecTiVos. The R15 may get better, but at this point it doesn't seem likely.


no I have 2 of the Philips DTivo's, so the R10 or R15 is an extra DVR that Directv is offering it free to me, from the posts of many in here pertaining to the R15, I think the R10 is a better DVR to get for free


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

Well, oddly enough after getting my spare DSR7000 hooked up, I found it had a dead 2nd tuner (i think). So I guess I'll be reactivating my R15 tomorrow. This DSR7000 was one of those refurbs from Weaknees, and the problem is I bought it around 10 months ago, but never hooked it up, so I doubt they'd do much for me.

The problem with the tuner is weird. Only the odd transponders are dead, and I've swapped the cables around and found that the problem stays with tuner 2, so it definitely appears to be a bad tuner. It's too bad, I guess I should have hooked this thing up when I got it to check it out.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Bobman said:


> I posted here a few weeks ago that I thought eventually DirecTV will go the way of cable companies and offer only one DVR, the HR20.


I'm with you on this one. They'll go to just one DVR and keep their costs down and hopefully pass that savings on to us.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

skaeight said:


> Well, oddly enough after getting my spare DSR7000 hooked up, I found it had a dead 2nd tuner (i think). So I guess I'll be reactivating my R15 tomorrow. This DSR7000 was one of those refurbs from Weaknees, and the problem is I bought it around 10 months ago, but never hooked it up, so I doubt they'd do much for me.
> 
> The problem with the tuner is weird. Only the odd transponders are dead, and I've swapped the cables around and found that the problem stays with tuner 2, so it definitely appears to be a bad tuner. It's too bad, I guess I should have hooked this thing up when I got it to check it out.


I've seen a lot of failed second tuners on TCF, but they've tended to be HDVR2 (which of course are supposed to be identical, so it may not be that they're more susceptible, but that they're just more popular and older, assuming it's something that happens with time).

My own HDVR2 has a bad second tuner (currently inactive with a few shows I still want to watch someday). My in-laws' HDVR2 also had a bad second tuner (they got it replaced with some 70-hour DTiVo, I forget the model). My failure wasn't as definite as yours--it was just pixelization on that tuner on certain channels. I could reproduce it at will on that tuner on those channels, so it wasn't the hard drive.


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

walters said:


> I've seen a lot of failed second tuners on TCF, but they've tended to be HDVR2 (which of course are supposed to be identical, so it may not be that they're more susceptible, but that they're just more popular and older, assuming it's something that happens with time).
> 
> My own HDVR2 has a bad second tuner (currently inactive with a few shows I still want to watch someday). My in-laws' HDVR2 also had a bad second tuner (they got it replaced with some 70-hour DTiVo, I forget the model). My failure wasn't as definite as yours--it was just pixelization on that tuner on certain channels. I could reproduce it at will on that tuner on those channels, so it wasn't the hard drive.


Yeah, I've seen lots of reports of dead second tuners as well. I wonder why it's always tuner 2 and not tuner 1? It's odd.

This makes me really want to root for either the R15 to get much better, or the HR20 to get much cheaper. I thought I had a spare I could plop inplace if one of my main receivers failed, but I was wrong. So it appears that I currently have my last two DirecTiVos  .


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> So, a question to ponder. In SD land DTV went from the R10 to the R15. In the HD land DTV went from the HR10 to the HR20. Who, other than me, thinks the R15 was something DTV needed to come up with as their supply of R10s was running low? Who, other than me thinks the R15 will never work correctly and eventually a R20 will be released that is also Linux based like the HR20 using the HR20 code base? Who, other than me will be very pissed if this happens?


I asked that in another thread (about the number differance). I didn't know if was because they are two different builds or if they were planing on releasing and R20 or they just wanted to keep the models off by 5 from now on so the CSR's don't get confused.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

I'm not sure what gap it would have been intended to stop, though. Some as recent as two days ago are getting new R10s from DirecTV:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315411


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

walters said:


> I'm not sure what gap it would have been intended to stop, though. Some as recent as two days ago are getting new R10s from DirecTV:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315411


But would they have been able to get their hands on the amount of new R10s equal to the number of R15s they's placed in customers hands?


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> But would they have been able to get their hands on the amount of new R10s equal to the number of R15s they's placed in customers hands?


Do you have any numbers? I'm trying to imagine what that number would have to be to justify designing, developing, manufacturing, distributing and supporting a new product just for a year or so.

Even counting the fact that they apparently saved A LOT of money by cutting corners on design, development, and testing  , it seems like they would not make that kind of investment.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ApK said:


> Do you have any numbers? I'm trying to imagine what that number would have to be to justify designing, developing, manufacturing, distributing and supporting a new product just for a year or so.
> 
> Even counting the fact that they apparently saved A LOT of money by cutting corners on design, development, and testing  , it seems like they would not make that kind of investment.


I don't think there was any justification to the decision other than "we have to dump Tivo". At the point the decision was made to develop the R15, DTV and Tivo didn't have their contract extension. In fact it could be due to the R15's problems that DTV entered into the extension.

I'd guess management was told they could start with the XTV unit and it would be a "slam dunk" getting the R15 up and running. The design/development team probably even got a promotion for the amount of $$$ they were going to save with the R15 over selling more R10s. Another example of faulty intelligence.


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## Slyster (May 17, 2005)

Besides the SL problem, I have grown to LOVE the R15! It surpasses the DISH522 I had (similar 2 tuner 100 hour DVR unit)... 

And with FINALLY finding the best remote.. I am loving it now.

(Universal Remote R7).... best out there.. I went through at least 6 remotes last week before finding this one.


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## cybok0 (Jan 5, 2006)

Slyster said:


> Besides the SL problem, I have grown to LOVE the R15! It surpasses the DISH522 I had (similar 2 tuner 100 hour DVR unit)...
> 
> And with FINALLY finding the best remote.. I am loving it now.
> 
> (Universal Remote R7).... best out there.. I went through at least 6 remotes last week before finding this one.


sure glad I never went to dish, they must have some pretty crappy equipment.:grin:


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

I have to believe there are lots of silent customers, like me, who really like the R15.

I have never had a Tivo, but I dislike the way the product seems to patronize the less-technical user...such terms as "Wishlist" and "Season Pass," even the cutesy name "Tivo" rub me the wrong way. Makes it sound more like a new-generation Gigapet than a serious piece of equipment.

But as I say, I've never had a Tivo, and only feel the need to post this because of the dozens of much-more-extreme R15 bashing messages. We all have our opinions!


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> I have to believe there are lots of silent customers, like me, who really like the R15.
> 
> I have never had a Tivo, but I dislike the way the product seems to patronize the less-technical user...such terms as "Wishlist" and "Season Pass," even the cutesy name "Tivo" rub me the wrong way. Makes it sound more like a new-generation Gigapet than a serious piece of equipment.
> 
> But as I say, I've never had a Tivo, and only feel the need to post this because of the dozens of much-more-extreme R15 bashing messages. We all have our opinions!


TiVo IS a serious piece of gear despite it's cutseyness. The fact that it IS used and loved by the non-techies goes to show that by and large it is NOT patronizing ...it is apparently speaking to it's audience in language they can understand. If anything, I'd think the geekiest users (which I consider myself to 
be) would feel the most patronized, but it's excellence in function outweighs that for me.

Earlier on in the R15's life, you didn't need to have used a Tivo to be bothered by it's more egregious failings. 
Now, the R-15 is, IMO, quite a usuable unit with just a handfull of annoyances that will hopfully be fixed soon(we won't go into the fact that they SHOULD have been fixed already).
Even my wife, who has been the more vocal of us in the house on prefering our Tivo, has now said she's gotten used to the R-15, and I should not make any special effort to try to replace it with an R-10.

We TiVo folk simply have the burden of knowing how good a DVR can be, and so even little failings or minor stupid design decisions on the R-15 are thrown into sharp relief.


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## profbobo (Jan 22, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> I have to believe there are lots of silent customers, like me, who really like the R15.


I think it works both ways. 

I think there are lots of people that really, really hate it and never sign up to post on a message board.

I was at a family reunion in Michigan a few weeks ago and my cousin from NC mentioned how much she hated her new DirecTV TiVo. She said it wasn't TiVo. It always locks up, won't record, WishLists suck, loss of buffer after a recorded show, etc. She isn't a techie. Her DirecTV TiVo hard drive died and DirecTV sent her a R15 to replace it. She absolutely hated it. I told her to call DirecTV retention and beg for a R10 before the NHL season starts.

I don't know if it's still the same, but the R15 was a useless POS when it came to Sports Subscriptions and WishLists. I stopped using the R15 in April.

Like you said, there are probably a lot of people that love it and never say a word. But I gotta believe there are at least an equal amount of those that hate it too.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

profbobo said:


> But I gotta believe there are at least an equal amount of those that hate it too.


I would disagree. People usually find these forum when they have problems.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ApK said:


> We TiVo folk simply have the burden of knowing how good a DVR can be, and so even little failings or minor stupid design decisions on the R-15 are thrown into sharp relief.


Very well put. I agree 100%. DTV replaced a solid, dependable and feature rich DVR with something that.....was not. For someone like me with 7 DTivos and 1 R15 I appreciate the Tivo dependability and features.


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## bnm81002 (Oct 2, 2004)

did the R15 come out not that long after when the R10 came out? I think when there was no agreement at the time between Tivo and Directv of extending their contract, since it was due to expire in the year 2007, I think, that D* didn't want to risk losing any support from Tivo concerning D* Tivo-based DVR's that they decided that they needed a DVR unit for replacing those Tivo-based DVR's that they rushed the R15 DVR's too quickly out to the customers hence there were so many problems with the R15's but there are now more software updates to the R15's to help fix those problems, basically I'm saying that D* had to have a DVR for customers in the case of if Tivo and D* didn't extend their contract, so the R15 DVR were a rush job IMO


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bnm81002 said:


> did the R15 come out not that long after when the R10 came out? I think when there was no agreement at the time between Tivo and Directv of extending their contract, since it was due to expire in the year 2007, I think, that D* didn't want to risk losing any support from Tivo concerning D* Tivo-based DVR's that they decided that they needed a DVR unit for replacing those Tivo-based DVR's that they rushed the R15 DVR's too quickly out to the customers hence there were so many problems with the R15's but there are now more software updates to the R15's to help fix those problems, basically I'm saying that D* had to have a DVR for customers in the case of if Tivo and D* didn't extend their contract, so the R15 DVR were a rush job IMO


I honestly believe that in the back smoke filled rooms of DTV when the R15 was approved they planned on replacing every DTivo unit in service with the R15 before that old contract ran out basically telling Tivo to go screw themselves. I believe that was the plan that was sold to management and the plan management bought into. In the end they found out the true story and as a result, new contract with Tivo until 2010.

At least I hope the flunkies that proposed this plan and those that accepted this plan are now working elsewhere.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> At least I hope the flunkies that proposed this plan and those that accepted this plan are now working elsewhere.


They might have been working else where all the time. It might not have been D*'s idea in the first place.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> At least I hope the flunkies that proposed this plan and those that accepted this plan are now working elsewhere.


I suspect those who proposed it were anything but flunkies. Most flunkies have brains:lol:

Carl


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

In my opinion, no, I don't think the R15 was a stop-gap. I think that DTV wanted more flexibility in determining their architecture. And they probably wanted a consistent architecture. I think the adopted the R15 architecture and didn't see any real problems with it until it got rolled out and used heavily. I DO think there are some fundamental design problems - which is why I think things like the limits on the to do list, and the limited info you get back, and the first run/repeat issues are still there. I don't think they're simple fixes - I believe they would require more of an overhaul.

I don't go along with the folks that think it won't get any better. I don't buy that. To me this is a s/w issue - and I think the s/w may need to be redesigned. Whether DTV chooses to do that or not, well we'll have to see. With the customer base that DTV stands to lose if they don't make marked improvements, they would be stupid to NOT make the changes. I just think that they approached the bug fixes in a logical way. Start with the obvious ones - the ones that affect stability. It appears that they've come a long way with that. Next are the ones that are affected by underlying design problems (first run/repeat, e.g.), and I think they're starting to do some of that. Then you work on enhancements that are nice-to-haves (dual live tuners, e.g.).

In all of this, I find it interesting that the blame for getting rid of Tivo falls totally to DTV. I don't know much of the culture of Tivo, but it could very well be that Tivo is the PIA to deal with. If you have a partnership where the partner is being too demanding, you sometimes have to cut them loose when the contract ends. If Tivo is completely inflexible in integrating the changes that DTV would like to see in the architecture (not saying they are - I really don't know), then DTV would be forced to either comprimise and stay with Tivo, and be tied to their architecture, or cut Tivo loose. One analogy that comes to mind is the Disney/Pixar arrangement (before the buy-out, that is). Pixar was a great source of revenue for Disney, but they made some pretty tough demands on Disney for both future pictures, and they wanted to renegotiate on PAST pictures.

It could very well be the case that DTV wanted to move in a certain direction and that Tivo wouldn't oblige. I really don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

jpl said:


> I don't go along with the folks that think it won't get any better. I don't buy that. To me this is a s/w issue


I agree  with most of what you said BUT how long should people have to wait to get a stable reliable no limits DVR ? Its coming close to a year of upgrades already. It has certainly been improved since last Nov but still has a long way to go.

I am a big R-15 supporter and still might end up sending back one of my R-15's as I can't trust it to 99% record what I want. It does work and I check the TDL daily but that doesnt stop the partial recordings for no reason, box locks up overnight and misses all your shows, etc... I have never had those problems on my R-10.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Bobman said:


> I agree  with most of what you said BUT how long should people have to wait to get a stable reliable no limits DVR ? Its coming close to a year of upgrades already. It has certainly been improved since last Nov but still has a long way to go.
> 
> I am a big R-15 supporter and still might end up sending back one of my R-15's as I can't trust it to 99% record what I want. It does work and I check the TDL daily but that doesnt stop the partial recordings for no reason, box locks up overnight and misses all your shows, etc... I have never had those problems on my R-10.


That's a very good question. And one that DTV needs to be mindful of (how long people should have to wait). If you get a sense that the company isn't responding to your problems, then you lose confidence in the product and the company and almost nothing will turn that around. I think for most people (me included) the R15 is just fine. I really hope they get some of the annoying things fixed (the day they fix the first run/repeat issue I'll be doing backflips... and trust me you really don't want to see that ). Overall, I like the system. I like the functionality. And if they get it to be more reliable and more flexible (getting rid of the limits, e.g.) I think they would have an awesome DVR. As it is, I actually DO prefer it to my old Tivo. I didn't at first, but I really got to like the functionality of this thing.

Going back to your question, the timing is critical. They need to turn some of these fixes around quickly.


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I honestly believe that in the back smoke filled rooms of DTV when the R15 was approved they planned on replacing every DTivo unit in service with the R15 before that old contract ran out basically telling Tivo to go screw themselves. I believe that was the plan that was sold to management and the plan management bought into. In the end they found out the true story and as a result, new contract with Tivo until 2010.
> 
> At least I hope the flunkies that proposed this plan and those that accepted this plan are now working elsewhere.


At this stage, any device designed for use in the SD domain is a 'Stop Gap' device. HD technolgy is has exited the 'High-end' user phase and is rapidly gaining market share in the main stream arena. So naturally, when D* was presented with the need to replace the SD TiVo devices quickly (which were custom versions of a standalone TiVo device customized for D* use) they needed to do so by recycling existing peices such as the XTV based code. And since the SD devices are now entering the declining phase of their life cycle, they could not justify engineering a ground up replacement.

On a side note, the only reason I have an R15 is because I sufferred the dreaded "2nd Tuner Failure" on my DR39 DTivo box. I like the additional space and some of the shorter menu features, but like the rest, sorely miss the performance of the best peice of video gear I have ever owned, the dearly departed DR39. :nono2:

Have you noticed that most of D* newest promotions are centered around the HD packages...


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## bearymore (Sep 1, 2006)

ApK said:


> TiVo IS a serious piece of gear despite it's cutseyness. The fact that it IS used and loved by the non-techies goes to show that by and large it is NOT patronizing ...it is apparently speaking to it's audience in language they can understand. If anything, I'd think the geekiest users (which I consider myself to
> be) would feel the most patronized, but it's excellence in function outweighs that for me.


I've used Tivo since before Directivo's existed. I finally went to the R15 when my series 1 Directivo crapped out after about 4 years and Directv offered me a free R15. As a relatively geeky guy, I was put off by Tivo's cutesyness before I actually got the machine. When I started using it, it was the cutesyness itself that impressed me. It made the machine absolutely intuitive. Unless you were into hacking and secret codes, nothing was hidden -- if you wanted to do something it was obvious how to do it. I don't think I ever had to look at the manual. The remote control should win some kind of design reward. It is utterly simple and easy to use. Unlike the R15's, which I frequently turn off when I mean to do a 30 second skip, the important buttons were big and easy to find. The people at Tivo had useability as their first priority. Using a DVR shouldn't be like controlling Linux from the command line.

Ironically, considering the complaints about the R15 I've seen, it could be considered geek friendly. Its very lack of intuitiveness screams that it was designed by engineers without consulting anybody trained in human factors. As for its quality, I'll wait and see -- I've had it for less than a week. After the first day I was ready to send it back, but I must say it's been growing on me. It certainly has a number of features my Series 1 Directivo lacked.


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## nneptune (Mar 30, 2006)

cybok0 said:


> sure glad I never went to dish, they must have some pretty crappy equipment.:grin:


No. At this point their equipment is superior.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

nneptune said:


> No. At this point their equipment is superior.


Oh, yeah, sure. :barf:


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

bearymore said:


> I've used Tivo since before Directivo's existed. I finally went to the R15 when my series 1 Directivo crapped out after about 4 years and Directv offered me a free R15. As a relatively geeky guy, I was put off by Tivo's cutesyness before I actually got the machine. When I started using it, it was the cutesyness itself that impressed me. It made the machine absolutely intuitive. Unless you were into hacking and secret codes, nothing was hidden -- if you wanted to do something it was obvious how to do it. I don't think I ever had to look at the manual. The remote control should win some kind of design reward. It is utterly simple and easy to use. Unlike the R15's, which I frequently turn off when I mean to do a 30 second skip, the important buttons were big and easy to find. The people at Tivo had useability as their first priority. Using a DVR shouldn't be like controlling Linux from the command line.
> 
> Ironically, considering the complaints about the R15 I've seen, it could be considered geek friendly. Its very lack of intuitiveness screams that it was designed by engineers without consulting anybody trained in human factors. As for its quality, I'll wait and see -- I've had it for less than a week. After the first day I was ready to send it back, but I must say it's been growing on me. It certainly has a number of features my Series 1 Directivo lacked.


I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. Tivo is very intuitive. It's clear that they gave alot of thought to the human interaction. The R15 is more functional, in my opinion - it gives you more features - but is more difficult to grasp. The special buttons on the remote still astound me -- and the inconsistency between screens is equally baffling (e.g., why can't I use '--' to get rid of stuff on my todo list when I CAN to get rid of stuff on my VOD list?). I also found that Tivo spent more time considering how things "looked" (e.g. the colors, fonts, et. al.). While that is superficial, it DOES make the menus easier to read, and it makes things easier to find.

Still, as I've stated elsewhere, when all is said and done, I actually prefer (now that I've gotten used to it) the functionality on the R15 over my old Tivo. It has its issues, and I really wish they would fix some of the bugs it has, but I find it more functional. I think Tivo won hands-down on the DVR side of the equation (all the functionality associated with things like setting up a Season Pass), but for some basic receiver functionality, and in terms of how things are integrated (the seamlessness between live tv and the DVR side, e.g.) I really prefer the R15. If they could just get it really stable... they would have an awesome product.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

jpl said:


> I really prefer the R15. If they could just get it really stable... they would have an awesome product.


I agree.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

I see a lot of posts here about how Tivo is so intuitive, but from the few times I have used friends' DirecTivos, I wouldn't agree. The interface does not seem any more intuitive than the R15, and several often used and important functions seem considerably worse (like the lack of easy record from the program guide, the lack of an indication of which programs are set to record in the program guide, and no indication of the amount of disk space remaining).

That said, the R15 interface could stand some improvement (such as consistency in some functions, and easier access to some functions like setting record defaults).


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

jpl said:


> The special buttons on the remote still astound me -- and the inconsistency between screens is equally baffling (e.g., why can't I use '--' to get rid of stuff on my todo list when I CAN to get rid of stuff on my VOD list?).


I fully agree with that. Why doesn't -- work everywhere, why doesn't R) record on some list but does on others, why can't you mark and delete in the todo list but you can every less? I'll give them credit that they finally made the episode list appear if you select a show from MYVOD, it use to be blank, so it's getting better. Just wish it would happen faster.


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## TheTooleMan (Apr 9, 2006)

Of course it's a stop-gap product. I'm sure that a mandate from way up the corporate ladder came down saying they had to get rid of the TiVo units and stop paying those royalties. Their agreement ended on some arbitrarily-set date, and that was the driving force. Whether the hardware was ready or not, it had to roll out.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Upstream said:


> I see a lot of posts here about how Tivo is so intuitive, but from the few times I have used friends' DirecTivos, I wouldn't agree. The interface does not seem any more intuitive than the R15, and several often used and important functions seem considerably worse (like the lack of easy record from the program guide, the lack of an indication of which programs are set to record in the program guide, and no indication of the amount of disk space remaining).
> 
> That said, the R15 interface could stand some improvement (such as consistency in some functions, and easier access to some functions like setting record defaults).


By using any DVR a "few times" you won't like the feel. I like Tivo's UI because you have a clear starting point (the menu) and from there all you have to do is use the ARROW or SELECT buttons to get anywhere. None of this trying to remember which button to press....oh, am I suppose to press the LEFT ARROW button or the EXIT button or the BACK button. No color coded buttons that perform one function in this screen and don't work in another screen. None of these TABS in some screens that I'm sure some folks don't even know are there.

As far as easy record from the guide you press the REC button and it asks if you want to record this show or you can select more options and setup a SP or view upcoming showings.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I like Tivo's UI because you have a clear starting point (the menu)


Its all just personal preference. The R-15 UI is very simple if you ask me. You want to see your programs, press list. You want to see all the different choices, press menu. You want Interactive content, press Active. Your in a screen and want to go back and not exit, press back, to exit completely press exit. With TiVo doing anything requires multiple presses as you always have to go to the menu first.

Maybe not as dumbed down as TiVo but I am not sure whats so hard about it. Everything else is spelled right out on the screen just like the DirecTiVos.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Upstream said:


> I see a lot of posts here about how Tivo is so intuitive, but from the few times I have used friends' DirecTivos, I wouldn't agree. The interface does not seem any more intuitive than the R15, and several often used and important functions seem considerably worse (like the lack of easy record from the program guide, the lack of an indication of which programs are set to record in the program guide, and no indication of the amount of disk space remaining).
> 
> That said, the R15 interface could stand some improvement (such as consistency in some functions, and easier access to some functions like setting record defaults).


I would agree with you on those features. They go back to that seamless integration that I was referring to. The guide, in those cases, tie back to the features of the DVR, which is very nice.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

TheTooleMan said:


> Of course it's a stop-gap product. I'm sure that a mandate from way up the corporate ladder came down saying they had to get rid of the TiVo units and stop paying those royalties. Their agreement ended on some arbitrarily-set date, and that was the driving force. Whether the hardware was ready or not, it had to roll out.


I agree with your premise that it was rushed to market due to dumping TiVo, but that doesn't necessarily make it a stop gap product. They could have honestly set out to build a superior (or satisfactory) product, and just failed.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Bobman said:


> You want to see all the different choices, press menu.


Not quite. You get different items in the menu depending on what screen you started from. For example, if I wanted to do a little housekeeping and delete some programs, I have to first go to MyVod before I can bring up Mark & Delete.

Some stuff is intuitive, like MyVOD, others are not. BTW, if it's called MyVOD why is the remote button labeled List instead of MyVod? Does it do anything else?


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Wolffpack -- but if the user interface is intuitive, it is intuitive the first time I use it.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

qwerty said:


> Not quite. You get different items in the menu depending on what screen you started from. For example, if I wanted to do a little housekeeping and delete some programs, I have to first go to MyVod before I can bring up Mark & Delete.
> 
> Some stuff is intuitive, like MyVOD, others are not. BTW, if it's called MyVOD why is the remote button labeled List instead of MyVod? Does it do anything else?


That stuff ticks me off. My best example is the "hidden" menu for setting SL's defaults. You'd think that be in settings, no it's not. You have to go into a recording or a SL's and then go to the recording tab and then hit the quick menu to set the SL's defualt settigns.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> That stuff ticks me off. My best example is the "hidden" menu for setting SL's defaults. You'd think that be in settings, no it's not. You have to go into a recording or a SL's and then go to the recording tab and then hit the quick menu to set the SL's defualt settigns.


That's what I was referring to when I compared the intuitiveness of Tivo to the R15. There are times when I sit there and think "ok, I need to change the guide to a specific date/time... now how do I do that again?" With Tivo, I hit the DirecTV button, no matter where I am, and I know I'm going to get to where I need to go from there. Once you learn all the hidden functionality of the R15 it's really cool. With the Tivo, I don't think I used the manual beyond a cursory glance to see what the unit could do. With the R15 I spent the first couple days with the manual (as useless as it is) in my lap learning to navigate the unit. Once I got the hang of it, I really liked it (I really like the context-sensitive quick menu, e.g.). Still there are some functions that I need to sit and think about to remember how I need to get there.

You hit one of my peeves, btw - managing your SLs. There should be an option off one of the main menus to manage my SLs.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

I guess i'm just one of the ones who never really liked the Tivo interface, it is "cute" but too cartoony for me. I also am not super thrilled with the R15 interface either, I think it's too utilitarian and in some fashions cryptic. I would like a nice combination of them, I liked at least the screen shots of the Moxi software that I saw but never used it. Does anyone know what the new UI thats supposed to be out in 07 for DTV is supposed to look like?


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Speaking of intutive, how do you get to the menu for your SL defaults?


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## pentium101 (Nov 19, 2005)

Bobman said:


> Its all just personal preference. The R-15 UI is very simple if you ask me.


To be fair, I hope that your post was comparing the DTivo and not the SA Tivo units to the R15.


> You want to see your programs, press list.


You do the same on a DTivo.


> You want to see all the different choices, press menu.


Same on the DTivo. The Directv button at the top of the remote is the menu button.


> You want Interactive content, press Active.


R15 wins here. No Active button on the DTivo.


> Your in a screen and want to go back and not exit, press back, to exit completely press exit.


No back button on the DTivo. Instead you use the multi-arrow button. You press the exit button to exit the menus and return to viewing live tv.


> With TiVo doing anything requires multiple presses as you always have to go to the menu first.


Not true. To view the Guide or the Now Playing List only requires 1 button to be pressed.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> My best example is the "hidden" menu for setting SL's defaults.


If you think about it, its right where it needs to be if you ask me.

The SL recording options only show when your in the SL and recording for a show. Seems very logical to me. No need to have options on top of options in screens where they serve no purpose.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

jpl said:


> I need to change the guide to a specific date/time... now how do I do that again?"


Just look at the screens and read whats there. When in the guide, at the bottom, it says press this to do this and press that to do that. Many other screens work likewise.

The DirecTiVo guide is no different. I remember when the R-10 came out with folders, turned off for some stupid reason, it took some many days and even having to ask others how to turn them on. The answer was right there on the screen, people just need to stop look and read.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

jpl said:


> That's what I was referring to when I compared the intuitiveness of Tivo to the R15. There are times when I sit there and think "ok, I need to change the guide to a specific date/time... now how do I do that again?" With Tivo, I hit the DirecTV button, no matter where I am, and I know I'm going to get to where I need to go from there. Once you learn all the hidden functionality of the R15 it's really cool. With the Tivo, I don't think I used the manual beyond a cursory glance to see what the unit could do. With the R15 I spent the first couple days with the manual (as useless as it is) in my lap learning to navigate the unit. Once I got the hang of it, I really liked it (I really like the context-sensitive quick menu, e.g.). Still there are some functions that I need to sit and think about to remember how I need to get there.
> 
> You hit one of my peeves, btw - managing your SLs. There should be an option off one of the main menus to manage my SLs.


That date/time thing ticks me off too. Coming from the UTV and the R15 being so simialar I keep thinking that since Search is in the QM when your on the main screen that Search by date/time should be there too (and open up the guide for you). The UTV had it in both the guide QM and the QM on the main screen. I know where to go but I think others who get the R15 would think that search for date/time would be with search on the main QM.



Clint Lamor said:


> I guess i'm just one of the ones who never really liked the Tivo interface, it is "cute" but too cartoony for me.


I fully agree. To Mac like.



qwerty said:


> Speaking of intutive, how do you get to the menu for your SL defaults?


That's what I was talking about in my post up there. You have to go into the the SL screen on any show (doesn't have to be one you have setup) then tab over to the SL options. Then hit menu and one of the options is for defaults.



Bobman said:


> If you think about it, its right where it needs to be if you ask me.
> 
> The SL recording options only show when your in the SL and recording for a show. Seems very logical to me. No need to have options on top of options in screens where they serve no purpose.


I half agree with you. It makes sense that it would be grouped with the SL's options but it doesn't make sense that it's hidden in the QM at that point. Even if they had a message that told you to look in the QM or had a button to press that said SL's defaults on that tab. I think the UTV and Tivo have all there defaults in one central place like the settings screen. One the R15 you most of the defualts there so I would think it would be access to it there too.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

I'm frankly not even sure TiVo has changeable defaults (we're talking about things like keep at most, repeats/first-run, etc., right?) I've never seen it. I've also never felt like I needed it. I almost always setup a SP without thinking about the settings. There are a few exceptions (my throwaway shows and the kids' shows) where I set Keep At Most low for space reasons.


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## anopro (Sep 13, 2006)

We have had the R-15 for 1 week now and must say we like this UI much better that TIVO’s. So fast to set up a SL find your program in the guide and press record twice so simple, Want to delete more than one thing just check it off and bam all gone or better yet dash dash on VOD and gone so simple and fast. Never lose focus of what’s playing with picture in guide means I can surf the guide with out missing any action. And this thing is a lot faster than the R-10 at everything 

I guess why we like the R-15 UI so much is it’s a lot like Ultimate TV’s UI and that was probably the best DVR ever put out IMHO. Microsoft finally got something right the first time and they drop it go figure.

Now the R-15 has a few of bugs but they seem to be working pretty hard at it, lot’s of software updates so we’ll see if they can fix most of them.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

anopro said:


> We have had the R-15 for 1 week now...And this thing is a lot faster than the R-10 at everything


Just give it more time.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Bobman said:


> Just look at the screens and read whats there. When in the guide, at the bottom, it says press this to do this and press that to do that. Many other screens work likewise.
> 
> The DirecTiVo guide is no different. I remember when the R-10 came out with folders, turned off for some stupid reason, it took some many days and even having to ask others how to turn them on. The answer was right there on the screen, people just need to stop look and read.


For the example I gave, you actually get to it by hitting menu in the guide. I wasn't in the guide, and I kept hitting menu, and I kept trying to figure out which option it was "I know I've gotten there before... why can't I find it now?" When you have context-sensitive menus, it CAN get a little confusing finding stuff. But I agree, when you get used to it, it's very powerful. For functions that I don't use very often, I have to think about what I need to do... I never really had to do that with my Tivo. Personally, I LIKE the functionality of the R15 better.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

I don't mind context-sensitive menus, but I wish the unit would display menu trees so you could see how to get to the context-sensitive menu from the root menu. (Of course that also implies that the unit has logical menu trees, and no stand-alone options which can't be reached from the root menu.)


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

I agree bread crumb trails are very nice to have that way you know you can always get back to a certain place very easily. The R15 menus where designed by programmers and for better or worse you can tell that.



Upstream said:


> I don't mind context-sensitive menus, but I wish the unit would display menu trees so you could see how to get to the context-sensitive menu from the root menu. (Of course that also implies that the unit has logical menu trees, and no stand-alone options which can't be reached from the root menu.)


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

walters said:


> I'm frankly not even sure TiVo has changeable defaults (we're talking about things like keep at most, repeats/first-run, etc., right?) I've never seen it. I've also never felt like I needed it. I almost always setup a SP without thinking about the settings. There are a few exceptions (my throwaway shows and the kids' shows) where I set Keep At Most low for space reasons.


Yeah that's what I was talking about. I do the same thing with the SL's it's just annoying that the ones that I see up the most I want to be keep all. But you can't choose that the default only goes up to 5 not all, so I have to go into almost every SL's that I make and change it. The quickness of the R)) is lost to me since I have to edit every SL's I ever make. The 1% of the time that I setup kids shows it works great. I hope when they fix that they give us an option also for keep 10. I really would put the kids shows at 10 if it was an option and everything else at all.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Upstream said:


> I don't mind context-sensitive menus, but I wish the unit would display menu trees so you could see how to get to the context-sensitive menu from the root menu. (Of course that also implies that the unit has logical menu trees, and no stand-alone options which can't be reached from the root menu.)


Or at least included in the manual.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Or at least included in the manual.


The manual is pretty worthless. It is basically generic and has to be since they keep changing features with each software upgrade. The fact that the manual is generic and features change seems to indicate that that there is not really a preconceived design for the R15, and DTV is sort of fudging it as they go.


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

Maby D* wanted to get away from TIVO because TIVO has been hacked. Maby they were afraid of people taking content off of the hard drive and distributing it. This could get them in to hot water with their providers.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

LI-SVT said:


> Maby D* wanted to get away from TIVO because TIVO has been hacked. Maby they were afraid of people taking content off of the hard drive and distributing it. This could get them in to hot water with their providers.


I doubt that's the case. If pirating of content was that much of a deal there would be controls in place to prevent the new units from recording to a DVD. Pirating doesn't have to be digital only, burning a show from the R15 to DVD is still pirating.

Tivo and DTV had their own little marriage that ended up the same as many do, a nasty breakup and then a civil agreement until the kids have grown up (DTivos are no more) which now is scheduled for 2010.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> Tivo and DTV had their own little marriage that ended up the same as many do, a nasty breakup and then a civil agreement until the kids have grown up (DTivos are no more) which now is scheduled for 2010.


Just curious, what happens in 2010, will the Tivo's be shut off and will Tivo (how about T* for Tivo?) sue D* like they did E*, or will there be another contract extension?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

There's only one way to know.... T* sue D*? rattle...rattle...rattle

Magic 8 Ball.

Well there ya go. First "Concentrate and ask again".
Second rattle "Outlook not so good".


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## pentium101 (Nov 19, 2005)

Wow the magic 8 ball.

Now that's a blast from the past. :lol:


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I doubt that's the case. If pirating of content was that much of a deal there would be controls in place to prevent the new units from recording to a DVD. Pirating doesn't have to be digital only, burning a show from the R15 to DVD is still pirating.
> 
> I agree with your idea but it is a little contrary to the way things are. The idea behind DRM is to prevent digital to digital duplication. Yes I can copy a show from my DVR to VHS or DVD, but only with a 480i analouge connection. My first post eluded to the fact that hackers are one step away from being able to rip data from a TIVO unit and distribute it digitaly. The whole lease vs own issue is related also. If DirecTv owns the DVR and the user illegally distruvits its contents DirecTv probally has greater leway in comming down on that subscriber. In the end your thoughts on the R15 are probably spot on. The R15 was suposed to provide subscribers with the same features as TIVO at a lower cost to DirecTv. Too bad the R15 just doesn't work.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

I don't see it as an issue. D* made a box for viewing subscribed content. It didn't facilitate the distribution of that content (other than the D* network). They didn't make the box with the capability of extracting the digital content. It would not be reasonable to hold them liable if someone were to hack the software or hardware to make it capable.

I found a website that showed me how to pull the drive from my old Dish PVR 510, and using freeware, extract the video to my PC. Many even modded that unit with removable drive bays for that purpose. I don't recall seeing any lawsuits against Dish for that.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

The DirecTivo and the R15 use the same exact conditional access. NDS's VideoGuard. 

Has that been hacked yet, I don't think so! So people may be able to extract the content, but how are they going to view it without an access card?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

jonaswan2 said:


> The DirecTivo and the R15 use the same exact conditional access. NDS's VideoGuard.
> 
> Has that been hacked yet, I don't think so! So people may be able to extract the content, but how are they going to view it without an access card?


Without getting too far into this subject, the access card controls the SAT signal thus preventing theft of the signal. Once content is stored on a box extraction and viewing are outside the control of the access card technology.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Without getting too far into this subject, the access card controls the SAT signal thus preventing theft of the signal. Once content is stored on a box extraction and viewing are outside the control of the access card technology.


But isn't the content stored on the disked STILL encrypted or does only the R15 work that way?


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

jonaswan2 said:


> But isn't the content stored on the disked STILL encrypted or does only the R15 work that way?


It's encrypted, but it's encrypted by a TiVo process, which can be easily disabled (must be done before recording) in all but the R10. The R10 requires a hardware modification to do this.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

They installed my free R15 last week. I have two D10s and an RCA-39 DirecTivo. The R-15 went in to my bedroom. We had torential rains (really biblical  ) so I had to wait until the next day to force a download of the latest software. Since the download, I have had no problems. I find it very easy to use but different than the DirecTivo unit. Some things seem more intutive others; not so much. Kind of like the feeling I get when I have been driving my car and then have to drive my wife's car. Things are a little different, but not so much that I can't drive it.

I have a number of SLs set up over the coming week with the new fall season. 

BTW, this set of forums have been extremely helpful. Now if they can only get the CallerID working on my D10s


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Without getting too far into this subject, the access card controls the SAT signal thus preventing theft of the signal. Once content is stored on a box extraction and viewing are outside the control of the access card technology.


The reports of swapping hard drives between R15's seem to contradict that. You can see the recordings made on the other box, but can't view them.

I guess it could be something else specific to the box. The way I see it, though, is that the hardware decodes using a key on the card. It's to bad that no one that swapped the drives also swapped the cards to check. Of course, when they marry the card to the box they could send a new key.

That's my theory anyway!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

qwerty said:


> The reports of swapping hard drives between R15's seem to contradict that. You can see the recordings made on the other box, but can't view them.
> 
> I guess it could be something else specific to the box. The way I see it, though, is that the hardware decodes using a key on the card. It's to bad that no one that swapped the drives also swapped the cards to check. Of course, when they marry the card to the box they could send a new key.
> 
> That's my theory anyway!


I wasn't referring to the R15. If you swap drives between unhacked Tivo units you will get an Error 51 which is basically the same issue. I'm referring to the fact that on Tivos you can simply turn off encryption so that recordings are stored unencrypted on the HD, thus nothing to do with the access card.


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## pentium101 (Nov 19, 2005)

Well, I have just seen this link posted on another site about the HR20:

http://audiovideo.consumerelectronicsnet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=69091

This seems to be another plus for the HR20 camp. It does seem like Wolffpack was right all along in thinking along the lines that the R15 is the "Windows ME" of D* dvr's.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

pentium101 said:


> Well, I have just seen this link posted on another site about the HR20:
> 
> http://audiovideo.consumerelectronicsnet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=69091
> 
> This seems to be another plus for the HR20 camp. It does seem like Wolffpack was right all along in thinking along the lines that the R15 is the "Windows ME" of D* dvr's.


And the kicker is that I doubt us R15 users will ever see that functionality. Time will tell.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

I dont care for or want anything like that. If I want to see pictures on my TV, I connect my VideoCam, camera or digital media card. I can also take them to others houses and show them too.


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## DishSatUser (Aug 28, 2006)

Just noticed this other thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65490 about a third manufacturer of the R15, RCA.

If more manufacturers are jumping into the game, this seems to be an indicator that this may be a longer term product than a simple stop gap? Let's hope the software gets better with more manufacturers getting into the fray.


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## pentium101 (Nov 19, 2005)

Bobman said:


> I dont care for or want anything like that. If I want to see pictures on my TV, I connect my VideoCam, camera or digital media card. I can also take them to others houses and show them too.


Are you saying that for $299 (maybe $199 or less with lease trade-in) you wouldn't want a unit that can record in SD and HD, can record more programming, has dual live buffers, and is fully functional with all of its dvr features?

This is of course assuming that everything stated above were to happen. 

I would gladly spend a little more money for a unit that actually worked rather than to hold on to a unit that I received free and continually disappointed with.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

pentium101 said:


> Are you saying that


I dont plan to upgrade at all unless its free, I will never pay anything for any receivers. Both my R-15's were free. I think the leasing program is a big rip off and am not about to pay a penny for any equipment ever UNLESS I will own it.

My one R-15 works great except for the SL repeat issue and my other one only has a problem now and then. I dont know why others are having so many issues and I feel bad as I know what they are going through as I have been there but mine are working.

I am confident that the R-15 problems will be worked out and whatever is added to the HR20 will also be done to the R-15 if the hardware supports it.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

DishSatUser said:


> seems to be an indicator that this may be a longer term product than a simple stop gap?


You beat me to it !!!    

I was just talking about that last night when a couple friends were over. We were thinking the same as you. Why after approx. a year, release another newer R-15 if it's going to be phased out soon or replaced with a newer model after 2 years like some claimed ?

The only reason might be the older R-15's are flawed in the hardware and they will start pushing the newer 100 model only but I dont think thats the case.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Bobman said:


> I think the leasing program is a big rip off and am not about to pay a penny for any equipment ever UNLESS I will own it.


Amen, brother!


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## pentium101 (Nov 19, 2005)

Bobman said:


> I was just talking about that last night when a couple friends were over. We were thinking the same as you. Why after approx. a year, release another newer R-15 if it's going to be phased out soon or replaced with a newer model after 2 years like some claimed ?


A *new* manufacturer of these units doesn't necessarily ensure this products longevity.

Actually, RCA made units for D* in the past. They were making the DRD420/480, UTV, and the Dtivo DVR40/80 just to name a few. So I would expect RCA to also start making the full line of receivers being offered by D*.



> I think the leasing program is a big rip off and am not about to pay a penny for any equipment ever UNLESS I will own it.


I don't agree with the leasing problem being a big rip off. If you have ever had cable, you would know that they only allow you to lease their equipment. I don't like the service commitment that comes along with D*'s leasing program, but otherwise I can see some benefits to the program.

I do agree with your point on spending money on a unit. If I spend money on a receiver, I better own it and not have someone tell me later on that I have to surrender it or else pay a fee.


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## cybok0 (Jan 5, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> And the kicker is that I doubt us R15 users will ever see that functionality. Time will tell.


I feel the only way well see functions from the HR20 in R15 land is to switch to an HR20.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

pentium101 said:


> I don't agree with the leasing problem being a big rip off. If you have ever had cable, you would know that they only allow you to lease their equipment.


True but they dont charge you $300 upfront. In my area the cost is $9.95 a month for one HD dual tuner DVR, which BTW will be offering the Tivo software by years end or so they say, and with DirecTV that would be $300 plus $5.99 a month.

I would much rather pay the extra $4 a month for the cable DVR with no upfront cost as it would take me over 6 years at that rate to make it worth while to pay $300 up front to DirecTV.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Bobman, aren't you the one who alerted us to the free R15 promotion? Thanks again for that, but I am surprised they would make you pay $300 for an HR20.

I know you have an "its-gotta-be-free" outlook, but with programming and bill credits, my HR20/AT9 cost only $39. That's not too far from free. Have you called DTV and haggled?


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

paulman182 said:


> Bobman, aren't you the one who alerted us to the free R15 promotion? Thanks again for that, but I am surprised they would make you pay $300 for an HR20.
> 
> I know you have an "its-gotta-be-free" outlook, but with programming and bill credits, my HR20/AT9 cost only $39. That's not too far from free. Have you called DTV and haggled?


Is $39 possible if you don't have a HR10? It seems like most of the people getting that price are people who bought into the first HD DVR at a much higher price and are getting a special upgrade price.


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## cybok0 (Jan 5, 2006)

skaeight said:


> Is $39 possible if you don't have a HR10? It seems like most of the people getting that price are people who bought into the first HD DVR at a much higher price and are getting a special upgrade price.


yeah if i could trade one of my R15 for a HR20 and even pay up to $100 I probably do that.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Skaeight, I've posted my story about three or four times in different threads here.

Quick version is, I emailed them, saying I'd like to get into HD but the price on the HR20 was too steep. They called and left a message on my answering machine with a phone number--that number was Retention.

Called CSR on a Wednesday, she quoted $199, said it was not available in my area yet, and to call back in a couple of weeks. I called the following Sunday, and got the price knocked down to $99, then to $39 with programming credits.

You can look in the "what kind of deals you got from DTV" thread to see what they've done for me since I signed up in July. In my opinion, it's pretty spectacular.
I've got a pretty big package, however, if that matters--Total Choice Premier, Sunday Ticket, Superfan, and the Protection Plan, with 3 DVRs and 1 regular receiver.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> Bobman, aren't you the one who alerted us to the free R15 promotion? Thanks again for that, but I am surprised they would make you pay $300 for an HR20


I think it was because I got the 2 free R-15's over the past year that I am not qualified for any other updates. I did call and try.

If you already have HDTV or are a new user, they have a few cheap upgrade offers.


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## pentium101 (Nov 19, 2005)

Bobman said:


> True but they dont charge you $300 upfront. In my area the cost is $9.95 a month for one HD dual tuner DVR, which BTW will be offering the Tivo software by years end or so they say, and with DirecTV that would be $300 plus $5.99 a month.
> 
> I would much rather pay the extra $4 a month for the cable DVR with no upfront cost as it would take me over 6 years at that rate to make it worth while to pay $300 up front to DirecTV.


I completely agree with you. I guess that I keep forgetting about the upfront cost with D*'s leasing program.

I don't agree with paying an upfront cost and not truly owning the equipment. If they would supply the equipment for free and then charge a leasing fee, I can see a benefit to that.

When I had cancelled my cable a few years ago, I had no problem with giving them back their box. Of course, there was never any upfront cost to getting the decoder and that's the way D* should do it.


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