# DirecTV Lease vs Buy Confusion



## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

I am considering getting another HR10-250 and decided to check out the lease vs buy options. There are many on-line retailers like Crutchfield, BestBuy and the like all selling HR10-250's for about $499. All say the equipment is mine and not a lease. 

On the other hand, DirecTV will lease me an HR10-250 for an up-front fee of $499, and a monthly lease of $4.95 plus the DVR monthly fee of $4.99. Right now I pay a monthly mirroring fee of $4.95 a month and the same DVR fee of $4.99 a month. In other words my out-of-pocket cost would be exactly the same if I buy or if lease. 

Then I checked to see if I could buy the HR-10-250 from Crutchfield and then activate it as my own equipment. I was told flatly by a DirecTV Customer Retention supervisor (employee nr U3613) that even if I "buy" the DVR from an authorized retailer, it would still be a lease as far as DirecTV was concerned. That I woulld be required to turn the HR10-250 over to DirecTV if I cancelled my DirecTV service.

Since this seemed to be unfair if not illegal, I contacted several on-line retailers about this. All said that they were selling the equipment not leasing it. I again spoke to DirecTV was was assured that existing subscribers could "own" the equipment they bought from retailers. That they could "ask" that the new equipment purchased from retailers be considered "subscriber owned" when it was activated.

Then I asked what if a new subscriber bought the same equipment from a retailer, could they activate it as owned. That question completly floored the customer retention specialist. She said the instructions were not written very well and that DirecTV might consider that a "lease."

Does anyone else have a better feel for who can and can not own DirecTV equipment?


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

I gotta say that I am floored that people are only 'NOW' coming to grips with the new lease plan. This has been widely discussed and bantered back and forth on this and similar sites (avs and others). It has been mentioned over and over that anyone who was thinking about upgrading or getting new equipment and wanted to own should act before 3/1 (gosh that's a whole 4 days ago). 

I know that if I was even thinking about getting D* equipment (and I wanted to own) I would have done so before the first of March. The leasing plan has been posted in full on many threads online (here and other forums).

Just like anything else - if you snooze you lose. Everyone around here for the past month or so was forewarned. 

I don't want to sound so direct, but this should have been thought of 4 days ago.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

That's not entirely true. The new plan has always stated that retailers could still sell units which would be owned by the customer. It's just that after 03/01 DTV would not be subsidizing the units retailers were selling.

As I understand it if I get a HR10 from DTV I pay $499 and lease. If I get one from a retailer and pay $799 I own it. Now, I think where the confusion is coming from is that retailers are still selling their units for $499. Maybe not all retailers have gotten the word they should be charging $799 or maybe the retailers are clearing their shelves. Bottom line is you can still purchase equipment is you wish.

In particular:


lee1203 said:


> 7. Q: What happens if I sell (not lease) my customer a DIRECTV system after 2/28/06?
> 
> A: While you are not prohibited from selling DIRECTV hardware at prices established by you, please be advised that after 2/28/06, you will not be eligible to receive any commissions or subsidies for sold receivers. Accordingly, you will be subject to chargebacks for any subsidies or commissions you may have received, including any amounts under the Buy-Down Program. Please also note that only leased receivers will be eligible for ODU/Multi-Switch Reimbursement and commission.


in this post.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

ScoB said:


> I gotta say that I am floored that people are only 'NOW' coming to grips with the new lease plan. This has been widely discussed and bantered back and forth on this and similar sites (avs and others). It has been mentioned over and over that anyone who was thinking about upgrading or getting new equipment and wanted to own should act before 3/1 (gosh that's a whole 4 days ago).
> 
> I know that if I was even thinking about getting D* equipment (and I wanted to own) I would have done so before the first of March. The leasing plan has been posted in full on many threads online (here and other forums).
> 
> ...


Your Right .... GET OVER IT PEOPLE !!!!


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

damondlt said:


> Your Right .... GET OVER IT PEOPLE !!!!


enuf said..........AMEN!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Not sure what's to get over. You can purchase or lease all DTV equipment. It's still a decision one can make.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Not sure what's to get over. You can purchase or lease all DTV equipment. It's still a decision one can make.


I'm willing to wager that retailers offering to sell D* IRDs will be few and far between once current stock runs out - Remember D* controls the distribution of ALL receivers now.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

From the Solid Signal website (http://www.solidsignal.com/dtv/dtv_lease_info.asp)

Take note of item #2:

For Existing DIRECTV Customers 
(1) DIRECTV® Receiver equipment purchased prior to 03/01/2006 are eligible to be activated as "non-leased" equipment and are not required to be returned to DIRECTV upon cancellation of service. Receiver(s) must be activated before 03/30/2006. 
(2) Any DIRECTV® Receiver purchased after 02/28/2006 will only be activated under DIRECTV®'s new equipment lease program. 
(3) Any DIRECTV® Receiver purchased before 02/28/2006 is not required to activated under DIRECTV®'s new equipment lease program. Therefore, you will own the purchased equipment. Receiver(s) must be activated before 03/30/2006. 
(3) Any DIRECTV® Receiver activation will require a 24-month subscription commitment. 
(4) Equipment protection plan will still be available to you for your non-leased equipment for only $5.99 / month.

As a separate information piece, today I wired up another room in my house and re-activated an older RCA receiver - no problem, no programming committment, not-as-a-lease ($4.99 mirroring fee as my other boxes).


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Ok, I'm not going to keep beating this. The original info posted from DTV states you can purchase equipment from retailers after 03/01. It's up to the retailer. Obviously what you listed from SS indicates they are not planning on selling DTV equipment but only leasing.

The OP mentioned he saw pricing of $499 at Crutchfield's and BB. You stated no one can purchase equipment after 03/01. I quoted part of a memo from DTV to retailers and provided the link to this memo on this forum that states customers may lease or purchase equipment. You posted a link from SS that they are only going to lease.

It is obvious you can purchase equipment if a retailer offers that option. That's all. The entire program seems to have been implemented very poorly by DTV. It does not appear the specifics have been communicated properly to DTV's retailers, to DTV's CSRs nor to retailer's CSRs. End result will be a decline in DTV's new subscriptions at least for a couple of months.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Ok, I'm not going to keep beating this.
> *Thank goodness.*
> 
> The original info posted from DTV states you can purchase equipment from retailers after 03/01. It's up to the retailer. *Correct.*
> ...


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## DonCorleone (Jan 29, 2006)

Yikes! What's with the attititude on the site all of a sudden? The guy was simply asking a question and while there was a lot discussed on the site, (a) it and D* were still making people ask a lot of questions due to a lack of clarity and (b) maybe the Woodman hadn't read that stuff yet.

This is supposed to be a forum to enourage conversation, ask questions, share information, etc. You don't need to bit the guy's head off.



ScoB said:


> I gotta say that I am floored that people are only 'NOW' coming to grips with the new lease plan. This has been widely discussed and bantered back and forth on this and similar sites (avs and others). It has been mentioned over and over that anyone who was thinking about upgrading or getting new equipment and wanted to own should act before 3/1 (gosh that's a whole 4 days ago).
> 
> I know that if I was even thinking about getting D* equipment (and I wanted to own) I would have done so before the first of March. The leasing plan has been posted in full on many threads online (here and other forums).
> 
> ...


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

DonCorleone said:


> Yikes! What's with the attititude on the site all of a sudden? The guy was simply asking a question and while there was a lot discussed on the site, (a) it and D* were still making people ask a lot of questions due to a lack of clarity and (b) maybe the Woodman hadn't read that stuff yet.
> 
> This is supposed to be a forum to enourage conversation, ask questions, share information, etc. You don't need to bit the guy's head off.


Sorry that you feel that way. I do however feel that OVERALL there is way too much whining and not enough in the way of people reading before posting (as you suggest).

BTW look at the BB and CC circulars in todays paper (or online). Both clearly say that they are leasing receivers, and that the receivers are the property of D* and must be returned when service is cancelled. I do believe it is time for peeps to get over it and move on. Like it or not, it's a lease plan for now. Those who wanted to purchase and keep the boxes had plenty of notice. This is not really biting of anyone's head, maybe it is a notice to be pro-active in the future and weigh out the options before it's too late.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

Furthermore, I am not making a judgement on whether purchase or lease is a better option but I do know the following:

You know what - $99 upfront for a MPEG4 state-of-the-art current model HD receiver (yes on a lease) is really not too bad - all things considered. Why it was only about 2 years ago I purchased a Hughes E86 for about $700, and then a little over a year ago I bought a Hughes HD HTL for another $700. Yeah I own them (they are in boxes in my garage now) - I upgraded to the H20 in January.

If I had the option of leasing those 2 older boxes and paid $99 each up front, and since the monthly fees are the same for purchase or lease, it would have saved me LOTS of money to lease. I could upgrade each box 7 times (at $99 each) for the same $700 I spent to purchase. The only reason that the prices to purchase were so low now is that D* was subsidizing the retailers - without those the prices would still be in the $400+ range.

If you pay the small upfront lease fees and then you can change out for new technolgy every couple of years, it really seems to be a pretty fair deal. Also, don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that people paid $1100 to purchase a HD-DVR. $499 for that same box now is a pretty good deal (just ask someone that paid the $1100). 

Also, the new lease plan includes receiver replacement if it goes bad.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

If I can still purchase, new or used, and activate a "owned" receiver, how is D* going to keep track of which receivers are "leased" and which are "owned" for activation eligibility?

I can foresee a huge problem in getting D* to activate a receiver as "owned" . Is D* going to keep track of serial numbers and designate as "owned" or "leased"?

Or will D* refuse to active receivers with a "owned" status after 3/30/06 which seems to be implied from the Solidsignal Equipment Lease Program Information?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> You stated no one can purchase equipment after 03/01.
> 
> 
> ScoB said:
> ...


Sorry, I misinterpreted this statement as you informing the OP it was too late to own equipment. I apologize.


Scob said:


> It has been mentioned over and over that anyone who was thinking about upgrading or getting new equipment and wanted to own should act before 3/1 (gosh that's a whole 4 days ago).


If this wasn't the point you were trying to make I guess I'm at a loss as to why you even continued this thread. My original post in this thread was to simply communicate to the OP that owning was still an option.

I also agree with DonCoreone's assessment. All the OP did was ask a question about what seems to be, a very confusing new program.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hiker said:


> If I can still purchase, new or used, and activate a "owned" receiver, how is D* going to keep track of which receivers are "leased" and which are "owned" for activation eligibility?
> 
> I can foresee a huge problem in getting D* to activate a receiver as "owned" . Is D* going to keep track of serial numbers and designate as "owned" or "leased"?
> 
> Or will D* refuse to active receivers with a "owned" status after 3/30/06 which seems to be implied from the Solidsignal Equipment Lease Program Information?


They already do track the RID, serial number and associated access card for each unit in the field. I'd guess the have added a lease/own flag to that same info. In another thread a member indicates he has spoke with DTV and received a clearer answer.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

OK, say I am a current D* sub, buy a new HR10-250 from eBay, install it myself and call D* to activate. Won't D* by default assume that it is "leased" and give me a hard time try to activate as "owned"?

It seems that to be fair, D* would need to designate new equipment by serial number as "leased" or "owned" *before* it is shipped to retailers and to force each retailer to be only a "lease" retailer or "owned" retailer.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

First off, DTV can give you a hard time about anything. :eek2: 

But I cannot see how they can attempt to "suck" units already sold back into inventory. I have two R10's sitting here unused. If I give one to my folks DTV has no right to confiscate the unit as their own. They do know which units have previously been activated in the system. The real question is if you purchased a unit off eBay and needed a new access card from DTV does that mean they now own your equipment. It's a mess.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

Yes, a mess. And how are the retailers going to ensure the IRDs obtained from them are activated as "leased" so they will get their commission from D*? I guess they will have to audit and track every IRD sold. Maybe they were doing something like that before 3/1 on "owned" IRDs.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

I sent a message to Best Buy asking if their web HR10-250 (http://tinyurl.com/cqv5m) is a sale or lease. Here is the verbatum answer:

"Bill,

I am Melanie with Best Buy Customer Care.

Thank you for contacting Best Buy regarding your interest in the DirecTV
Hr10-250 HD DVR.

I'm pleased to inform you that $499.99 is the outright sale price to the
buyer. There is no lease included in this product.

If you are interested in purchasing this item you can give us a call at 
1-888-Best Buy and we'd be happy to place that order for you.

Please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions or concerns. We 
look forward to your next visit to one of our stores or to 
www.BestBuy.com.

Sincerely,
Melanie
Best Buy Customer Care Team"

A supervisor at Crutchfield said exactly the same thing verbally. BB and Crutchfield are not fly-by-night retailers and obviousy know the conditions of their sale. It is DirecTV that seems to be confused about their own policy.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

If you have read the D* Leasing Executive Summary here, then it would appear that the intention is to go lease only. Since retailers will get commissions only for a lease will this mean HR10 will cost $1000 again even if D* will activate it as "owned"? It might take retailers another month or 2 before they realize that leasing is in their best interest.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

ScoB said:


> enuf said..........AMEN!


You sure said alot after enuf was said!


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

MikeW said:


> You sure said alot after enuf was said!


True, very true.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

Bill Wood said:


> I sent a message to Best Buy asking if their web HR10-250 (http://tinyurl.com/cqv5m) is a sale or lease. Here is the verbatum answer:
> 
> "Bill,
> 
> ...


Good Job BILL. If Best buy said you can still buy them,then you sure can. They would know. since the only Satellite they sell is Directv. Thats because you can only lease dish networks junk. ENOUGH SAID!!


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

Bill Wood said:


> I sent a message to Best Buy asking if their web HR10-250 (http://tinyurl.com/cqv5m) is a sale or lease. Here is the verbatum answer:
> 
> "Bill,
> 
> ...


DirecTV is not a fly-by-night company either, and last I looked in this forum alone there are 100's of stories of CSRs giving incorrect info. Why would BB or Crutchfields be any different - especially since their pricing matches exactly what the new upfront lease pricing is. I personally think they are incorrect - so if you can get them to sell it to you right now - buy it.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Hi everyone - glad I found this place - I might be able to help a little on this topic. I was in Best Buy store today to get some Monster cables - as usual I passed by the DirecTV area to see how they are figuring out all this new stuff. 

The video guy told me that they were still pretty confused about all the new policies, but the manager was asked to make a call to their region offices - and in fact they are only leasing (they are calling the money needed upfront an equipment usage charge). They are not selling this stuff anymore.

Requires 24 month promise, and return of receiver if you cancel.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

I did some more calling to find out from DirecTV what the real policy is. Here is my take on it after reading the Executive Summary and speaking with about ten DirecTV CSR supervisors.

There are many retailers who bought equipment under the old sales plan. Not all of these retailers will be staying with the new lease only plan. Those retailers can sell that equipment at any price they feel is fair. However, any new DirecTV equipment orders will be on the lease-only plan. 

These retailers are SELLING the old plan equipment and DirecTV will honor a request to activate that subscriber-owned equipment as owned equipment. This includes new subscribers who unknowingly buy new DirecTV equipment outright from a retailer who SELLS that equipment. 

So, if your want to BUY any of this "old-plan" equipment you can get it activated and keep the equipment because you own it. DirecTV wants everyone to lease equipment rather than buy it because they often gave equipment away to new subscribers who did not stick around for long and turned around and sold that "free" equipment on eBay. 

In my own case I paid top dollar for all of my DirecTV equipment starting in 1994 when it cost about $1500 just to get started. As DirecTV came out with new services I stayed on the bleeding edge paying hard-earned bucks for every piece of equipment including $1000+ for a new HR10-250. 

It makes no sense to pay DirecTV $499 for a leased HR10-250 when Crutchfield will sell be the same unit for the same price. If I get it from DirecTV they keep the unit. If I get it from Crutchfield, it is mine to keep and resell after I get the new leased MPEG4 HD-DVR.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hiker said:


> If I can still purchase, new or used, and activate a "owned" receiver, how is D* going to keep track of which receivers are "leased" and which are "owned" for activation eligibility?


Using a contrivance known as a database, they can keep track of serial numbers. You may already know that D* will treat anyone who owns (or otherwise obtains) a receiver with a balance on it very poorly. This is just one of the uses.


> Is D* going to keep track of serial numbers and designate as "owned" or "leased"?


They've been doing it since the very beginning!


> Or will D* refuse to active receivers with a "owned" status after 3/30/06 which seems to be implied from the Solidsignal Equipment Lease Program Information?


Not as long as the receiver doesn't have a balance owed.

I don't think anyone will argue that they terms are exceedingly vague. The key is that only D* knows for sure what they meant and seeking clarification from anyone else isn't going to get you very far.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

Some additional information from a Crutchfield supervisor today. She read me the Crutchfield instruction regarding the DirecTV lease-plan. The mandatory lease-only plan is for basic receivers not the "advanced" DirecTV products that Crutchfield offers. All DirecTV equipment sold by Crutchfield is on an outright sales basis, not lease. That policy remains in force. Other retailers who offer non-advanced DirecTV products after March 1 must do it on a lease basis.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Bill Wood said:


> Some additional information from a Crutchfield supervisor today. She read me the Crutchfield instruction regarding the DirecTV lease-plan. The mandatory lease-only plan is for basic receivers not the "advanced" DirecTV products that Crutchfield offers. All DirecTV equipment sold by Crutchfield in on an outright sales basis, not lease. That policy remains in force. Other retailers who offer non-advanced DirecTV products after March 1 must do it on a lease basis.


Hate to say it, but you sound obsessed. And according to your first post you are only considering getting this. How many calls would you make if you were really gonna go ahead and but it?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Bill Wood said:


> it is mine to keep and resell after I get the new leased MPEG4 HD-DVR.


The concern I have is what kind of upgrade offers on new equipment you might get being an owner versus a lessor. I can see D* offering lessors an incremental upgrade ($99?) while charging owners the full $499 to "buy in" in which case they get their $499 out of you anyway. There is more than one way to skin a customer.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

D*Fan said:


> Hate to say it, but you sound obsessed. And according to your first post you are only considering getting this. How many calls would you make if you were really gonna go ahead and but it?


I am less than enthusiastic about DirecTV's so-called lease plan. They want to charge people the street price as an equipment fee. If they were to use the same plan most cable companies use it would be fair. Unfortunately I am trapped because our local cable company (Time-Warner) has no plans to upgrade Barstow's 7000 subscriber system any time soon. No HD plans at all. DirecTV and Dish Network are my only options. No such thing as OTA in Barstow.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Bill Wood said:


> They want to charge people the street price as an equipment fee.


Street price is what you can buy it for this instant. You may no longer be able to "own" a unit for $499. For E*, the difference on an MPEG4 HD DVR between lease entry and buying is $400 (699-299; 5.56 years of lease fees). My guess is that some retailers will continue to sell receivers, but at a much higher price because they are no longer getting kickbacks.

Quoting catalog prices isn't the same thing as buying.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

D*Fan said:


> Hate to say it, but you sound obsessed. And according to your first post you are only considering getting this. How many calls would you make if you were really gonna go ahead and but it?


Not only that but since this DVR you are so interested in is not MPEG4 compatible, it ain't gonna have ANY resale value by mid-07 or so - since ALL the HD stuff will be migrated by then (or close to then) who would buy it anyhow?

Now that you found out you can buy it - are you going to?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

ScoB said:


> Not only that but since this DVR you are so interested in is not MPEG4 compatible, it ain't gonna have ANY resale value by mid-07 or so - since ALL the HD stuff will be migrated by then (or close to then) who would buy it anyhow?
> 
> Now that you found out you can buy it - are you going to?


Hey man - that's true - why would anyone with AT9 MPEG4 capability even want to get that old DVR technology when the new one is out in a matter of months. I think he just wanted to start a meaningless discussion - if you aren't gonna get it lease OR purchase - the cost is the same = ZERO. The day the new box comes out the older one will have little or no re-sale value anyway. Also, I think the new one will only be available by lease anyhow.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

ScoB said:


> Now that you found out you can buy it - are you going to?


You sold me on it! I ordered it from Crutchfield. Thanks for all the inputs.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

D*Fan said:


> Hey man - that's true - why would anyone with AT9 MPEG4 capability even want to get that old DVR technology when the new one is out in a matter of months. I think he just wanted to start a meaningless discussion - if you aren't gonna get it lease OR purchase - the cost is the same = ZERO. The day the new box comes out the older one will have little or no re-sale value anyway. Also, I think the new one will only be available by lease anyhow.


I pulled the trigger on a HR10 back in Dec. Back when there were deals for the getting. Net cost on mine was about $50. I'm in Phoenix and can get all HD stations OTA with a RS antenna sitting on top of my equipment stand. I'm not planning on any MPEG4 until more national HD channels are added or existing national HD channels are converted to MPEG4.

Given that, with the current lease program, if I were to get a HR10 today I would lease.

*EDIT: *Oh, I'll also have to disagree with your stance on the resale value an HR10 once the new HD DVR from DTV once it's released. Just watching eBay the values of old Series 2's DTivos and R10's has gone up due to the problems being experienced with the R15. Plus, everyone seems to forget the HR10 can function fine as a DVR with OTA HD signals and MPEG2 HD or SD DTV channels.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ScoB said:


> Not only that but since this DVR you are so interested in is not MPEG4 compatible, it ain't gonna have ANY resale value by mid-07 or so - since ALL the HD stuff will be migrated by then (or close to then) who would buy it anyhow?
> 
> Now that you found out you can buy it - are you going to?


Remember it is still a dual tuner OTA Tivo HD DVR. Plus it will still be able to record non MPEG4 channels. There is still a value even after the MPEG2 HD feeds are gone.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Exactly my thoughts, Wolffpack. Still capable of OTA and MPEG2 HD -and- SD. Definitely won't just become a doorstop, as some seem to think - not for me anyway.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> I pulled the trigger on a HR10 back in Dec. Back when there were deals for the getting. Net cost on mine was about $50. I'm in Phoenix and can get all HD stations OTA with a RS antenna sitting on top of my equipment stand. I'm not planning on any MPEG4 until more national HD channels are added or existing national HD channels are converted to MPEG4.
> 
> Given that, with the current lease program, if I were to get a HR10 today I would lease.
> 
> *EDIT: *Oh, I'll also have to disagree with your stance on the resale value an HR10 once the new HD DVR from DTV once it's released. Just watching eBay the values of old Series 2's DTivos and R10's has gone up due to the problems being experienced with the R15. Plus, everyone seems to forget the HR10 can function fine as a DVR with OTA HD signals and MPEG2 HD or SD DTV channels.


Guess what..........ALL of you are right. Because in this situation to each his (her) own - whatever suits you. As much as I try to imagine though, I can't think of why I would need more than 1 DVR in my house though.

Oh and BTW Bill Wood - glad I could be of help - you were a bit undecisive there for a while. LOL.

I just checked ebay - you're right, there is a R10 going for 29.99 in about an hour. http://electronics.search.ebay.com/R10_Consumer-Electronics_W0QQfromZR41QQsacatZ293


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ScoB said:


> Guess what..........ALL of you are right. Because in this situation to each his (her) own - whatever suits you. As much as I try to imagine though, I can't think of why I would need more than 1 DVR in my house though.


Yes, to each their own. Our family has 7 DVRs in our house. (We kinda went with the program that when a non-DVR receiver dies, it's just as cheap to replace it with an old DTivo). We have 5 HDVR2s, 1 HR10-250 and a R15 to test/play with. Each one other than the R15 have been expanded in space and are networked together with all HDVR2's being able to play shows from one another.



ScoB said:


> I just checked ebay - you're right, there is a R10 going for 29.99 in about an hour. http://electronics.search.ebay.com/R10_Consumer-Electronics_W0QQfromZR41QQsacatZ293


Either you just want to argue and get more face time here or you have no idea how to use eBay. I'm guessing you're looking for the face time.

The auction item you mentioned states:


> Auction is for a DirecTv unit that we could not test for we do not have the power cord it takes to test it. We have taken a photo of the cord that is needed to use to power it. We do not know the status of the unit. The receiver is in very good shape. Sorry but as usual the auction is for the unit only, no accessories are included. This means no remote, cable, cords, manual or anything else. These items can be found on eBay, and a lot of times the manual can be downloaded at Amazon.


...and has no bids.

Just below the item you spent the time to research and post is another R10, new in box, with all accessories plus access card, with a day remaining on the auction currently bid at $102.50. Now if you've every tried to purchase an older DTivo on eBay you should be aware the REAL bidding starts about 5 minutes before the auction ends.

I don't know ScoB. I thought you had enuf with this thread but you seem to want to keep adding useful information to it. Ah well, again, to each their own.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> That's not entirely true. The new plan has always stated that retailers could still sell units which would be owned by the customer. It's just that after 03/01 DTV would not be subsidizing the units retailers were selling.
> 
> As I understand it if I get a HR10 from DTV I pay $499 and lease. If I get one from a retailer and pay $799 I own it. Now, I think where the confusion is coming from is that retailers are still selling their units for $499. Maybe not all retailers have gotten the word they should be charging $799 or maybe the retailers are clearing their shelves. Bottom line is you can still purchase equipment is you wish.
> 
> ...


Guess it goes back to you inserting a wrong statement into this right from the beginning. I NEVER stated that you could not purchase, just that if it was me I would have done it before 3/1 and not have to put myself thru all of this BS. Even you r statement that retailers should be charging $799 is bogus. They can charge whatever they want if they sell something - own up to your mis-statements.

You are the icon that needed the face time and presented an inaccurate reflection of what was strictly an opinion. And you are a very insulting "I know more than you person". Seems you felt a real NEED to respond to every post I made for some reason.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

I guess i better sell my 3 old receivers while i can Before they really aren't worth a penny.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

damondlt said:


> I guess i better sell my 3 old receivers while i can Before they really aren't worth a penny.


I cannot see how used receivers would be viewed as DTV property. Depending on the receiver you have, it's still worth plenty. Note the R10 I mentioned above selling for $102.50. There is a demand for owning solid technology and solid software.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

FYI

I talked to D* last night and asked (just for kicks) about the new lease program and why I'd want to be on the lease program and she said they are confused with the lease program right now. She said the D* reps are confused and aren't sure how the lease works and stated that it was good that I bought my R15's and H10-250 before they switched to the lease program. This is just great, D*'s own people don't understand it.


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## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

The lease program as we currently understand makes no sense. You have to pay the same or more up front and then D* owns the equipment. There's no incentive to the customer, in fact there's incentive to leave. If they continue with this policy, they'll risk losing customers. I'd be gone to cable right now if I didn't have Adelphia, and not everyone has a crappy cable co. On the other hand, once there are D* tuner cards available for HTPC's (as announced by Microsoft recently), I won't be buying any equipment from D* as I'll be building my own. I look forward to that day and hope it doesn't take much more than a year. There's hope because a cablecard compliant TV tuner card is being released in a few months. The options are growing. But the lease program really is pretty ridiculous. It's not really a lease program at all. It's really just a policy change that says the customer doesn't own any new equipment they buy. The customer pays for it but D* owns it and let's the customer use it while they have service with D*. Pretty stupid policy.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

eengert said:


> The lease program as we currently understand makes no sense. You have to pay the same or more up front and then D* owns the equipment. There's no incentive to the customer, in fact there's incentive to leave. If they continue with this policy, they'll risk losing customers. I'd be gone to cable right now if I didn't have Adelphia, and not everyone has a crappy cable co. On the other hand, once there are D* tuner cards available for HTPC's (as announced by Microsoft recently), I won't be buying any equipment from D* as I'll be building my own. I look forward to that day and hope it doesn't take much more than a year. There's hope because a cablecard compliant TV tuner card is being released in a few months. The options are growing. But the lease program really is pretty ridiculous. It's not really a lease program at all. It's really just a policy change that says the customer doesn't own any new equipment they buy. The customer pays for it but D* owns it and let's the customer use it while they have service with D*. Pretty stupid policy.


OK - everyone feels differently about the lease program, it does have some advantages for some people. I guess my question for those who are truly anti-lease - Have any of you called or emailed DirecTV with your feelings? If not why not? Voicing them here is of course understood and of course discussion is great - but letting them know directly - that is the best way - let them know and to see how many complain and if it is a large percentage, that's how to make them want to change.

Personally, I do see some advantages with both types of business models. But my feeling is that just with most of everything else, the OVERWHELMING majority of customers don't care, most have switched from cable where they NEVER owned the decoder - most wouldn't see a difference. The peeps that visit and post on these boards care FAR MORE than the average Joe does. In fact, there are million of D* customers that will not ever know about this, some have the same round dish and receivers for years, they just pay their bill (which won't be changing for them) and go on.

For the majority of new customers it isn't that apparent either. They still will install up to 4 rooms for no charge, will also do 1 DVR at no charge, will also do 1 HD receiver at no charge - just the monthly program and lease for for add'l receivers.


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## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

ScoB said:


> OK - everyone feels differently about the lease program, it does have some advantages for some people. I guess my question for those who are truly anti-lease - Have any of you called or emailed DirecTV with your feelings? If not why not? Voicing them here is of course understood and of course discussion is great - but letting them know directly - that is the best way - let them know and to see how many complain and if it is a large percentage, that's how to make them want to change.
> 
> Personally, I do see some advantages with both types of business models. But my feeling is that just with most of everything else, the OVERWHELMING majority of customers don't care, most have switched from cable where they NEVER owned the decoder - most wouldn't see a difference. The peeps that visit and post on these boards care FAR MORE than the average Joe does. In fact, there are million of D* customers that will not ever know about this, some have the same round dish and receivers for years, they just pay their bill (which won't be changing for them) and go on.
> 
> For the majority of new customers it isn't that apparent either. They still will install up to 4 rooms for no charge, will also do 1 DVR at no charge, will also do 1 HD receiver at no charge - just the monthly program and lease for for add'l receivers.


The problem is that, at best, calling this a Lease Program is a misnomer. When you pay full price up front, that's not leasing. The whole point of leasing is to only pay for your usage and then you give back the product when you're done using it. What D* is apparently trying to do is have the best of both worlds for themselves. They are forcing the customer to pay full price up front yet not allowing the customer to own the equipment. So it's really not a lease program. All that really changed is who owns the box. Since D* owns it (even though you paid for it) they can't force you to pay for a service plan (I'm sure they would if they thought they could get away with that too) so they have to cover any repairs/maintenence.

So they either need to change their pricing structure to actually be a lease, or change the name of the program to something other than "Lease".

As to your other comments, it will indeed be relevant to anyone who wants a DVR. Whether it's a SD or HD DVR, you're paying full price yet not gaining ownership. If you think ownership isn't a big deal, you might not have ever used ebay. I'm not anti-lease, I just either want a true lease program with little to no up front cost followed by monthly payments, or if I have to pay full price I want to own it so I can sell it later to recoup my costs (which I frequently do and come out very well in the end).

I have also shared these thoughts with D* as best as I know how. Not sure what we can expect from that given that even the CSR's have no idea what the "Lease" program is supposed to be about. I'm not at a decision point yet since I currently own all my equipment (including and HR10-250). And as long as the upgrade path to the new HD DVR is free, I won't have much issue there either (although I will apparently lose ownership at that point). But if this is the policy that they still call a "lease" at the time when I want/need to buy a new HD DVR, it will probably cause me to leave D* for a company that has a true lease program or allows me to own the equipment that I pay full price for. But whether or not it affects me or anyone right now is irrelevant. It is still a nonsensical policy if it is truly meant to be a lease program.

Honestly, I've tried and can't see any advantage to this program they've started. What advantages are you thinking of? We don't even get out of the 2 year committment. The only thing I can see is that you don't have to pay for a protection plan (which I don't pay for anyway). And I've also heard that they're limiting you to adding one HD DVR per year to your account. What's that all about? It's just really strange to me because the whole policy seems so ridiculous. I don't see any compromises or exchange of benefits. All I can see is D* taking all the benefits and leaving the customer with nothing except free coverage on the equipment (which only makes sense if the customer doesn't own it).


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

eengert said:


> ... They are forcing the customer to pay full price up front yet not allowing the customer to own the equipment. ...


D* supposedly will still allow ownership, but once the current supply of receivers/DVRs is out of the pipeline, they will cost a lot more. Buy now if you want to own. D* sells the HR10 to own at $899, which is what I paid for my first one in Dec 2004.
You seem to imply that no lease deals have upfront cost. E* has upfront cost and so does housing and auto leasing.
I don't understand the limit of one HD DVR per year. Maybe if they were in short supply. E* has a limit on the new ViP622 HD DVR but I believe it's a supply problem. Or if D* was heavily subsidizing maybe they would want the limit, but at $499, doesn't seem so.


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## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

hiker said:


> D* supposedly will still allow ownership, but once the current supply of receivers/DVRs is out of the pipeline, they will cost a lot more. Buy now if you want to own. D* sells the HR10 to own at $899, which is what I paid for my first one in Dec 2004.
> You seem to imply that no lease deals have upfront cost. E* has upfront cost and so does housing and auto leasing.
> I don't understand the limit of one HD DVR per year. Maybe if they were in short supply. E* has a limit on the new ViP622 HD DVR but I believe it's a supply problem. Or if D* was heavily subsidizing maybe they would want the limit, but at $499, doesn't seem so.


I didn't mean to imply that lease deals have no up front costs, just that the up front costs should be substantially lower than full price. I've heard $499 to "lease" and $799 to own. A measley 35% percent price reduction doesn't qualify as a lease deal to me. Especially when it's not so much a reduction in the "lease" price as it is an increase in the buy to own price.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

There are no lease fees if you have only one receiver/DVR or if you have more than one the first is free. Additional ones have a $4.99/mo each charge like the prior mirror fee. By charging the initial $499 they are getting the lease fee upfront.
On most other lease plans there is heavy monthly cost.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

eengert said:


> I didn't mean to imply that lease deals have no up front costs, just that the up front costs should be substantially lower than full price. I've heard $499 to "lease" and $799 to own. A measley 35% percent price reduction doesn't qualify as a lease deal to me. Especially when it's not so much a reduction in the "lease" price as it is an increase in the buy to own price.


First of all the D* letter to retailers clearly states that should they desire to sell receivers, it can be at ANY price they choose.

Second, the $499 is not truly the 'full' price. These prices have long been subsidized to retailers by DirecTV. You are in fact only talking about the sales price under the previous subsidized model. The whole thing has changed.

As to the advantages, well in my case 2 years ago I bought a Hughes E86 for $700, last year I bought a HUGES HD HTL also for $700. Both are now in my garage collecting dust. If I could have 'leased' HD receivers back then for even $99 upfront, I could be replacing them 6 more times to cover my original purchase price for EACH one. That's right, getting new technology every few years with a small upfront payment.

IMO, thats an advantage.

As far as ebay, of course I am aware of ebay. I own all of my present D* stuff. I made sure to upgrade to H20 and AT9 before the lease model so that at least for the next 2-3 years I am set. I don't have to worry about this whole thing, and that goes back to my first post (#2) on this thread. If you come to these boards, and you wanted to own the stuff, they had the best rebates up to end February - free HD receivers, free SD DVRs, large rebates on the HD DVR.

I didn't know how the lease plan would work out, I had my questions, but I made sure I was set so that I didn't have to go through all of this myself.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

When I first learned about this lease plan I was deadset against it. Now after analyzing it, it is looking better.

The problem for me at first was the shock of the $499 upfront cost. But since there is no monthly lease fee, that amounts to little over $20/mo over 2 years. Maybe D* should give us that option, i.e., $20/mo and $0 upfront and heavier penalties for early cancellation. Also remember installation is free, something important to a lot of people.

But I think one of the big problems for D* is trying to reduce churn (subscriber turnover). So the big upfront cost maybe is aimed at this problem. It just might scare the hell out of some people but the monthly fee would to easier to stomach.


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## ravichopra (Mar 7, 2006)

hiker said:


> When I first learned about this lease plan I was deadset against it. Now after analyzing it, it is looking better.
> 
> The problem for me at first was the shock of the $499 upfront cost. But since there is no monthly lease fee, that amounts to little over $20/mo over 2 years. Maybe D* should give us that option, i.e., $20/mo and $0 upfront and heavier penalties for early cancellation. Also remember installation is free, something important to a lot of people.
> 
> But I think one of the big problems for D* is trying to reduce churn (subscriber turnover). So the big upfront cost maybe is aimed at this problem. It just might scare the hell out of some people but the monthly fee would to easier to stomach.


I think you've hit it on the head here. And I would agree that trying to reduce churn is a good strategy and goal that does not have to conflict with customer needs.

Unfortunately, what they've done is structure it in such a way so as to reduce consumer confidence in them.

I've been a D* user for 4 or so years now. Really like the serivce/quality/etc. Despite the fact I've been happy with them for all this time (and have had a MUCH better experience than I ever had with cable), I have serious qualms.

Consider - with a heavy $400 up-front "lease" fee for the box that they keep regardless of length of service, they have NO incentive to actually provide good service. "Not happy with how we treat you? What a shame, send us our box back and we'll keep your $$$$..." With cable, their monthly box-rental fee is reasonable on a monthly basis and gives me the option to tell them to get bent if they don't provide value for my money.

Consider - with the new lease plan I have really no idea what the upgrade path or costs will be when they release new technology. Nothing appears to be in writing to guarantee anything. With cable, if tech changes, I just change boxes and start paying whatever new monthly fee there might be.

I had the terrific timing to find out that local HD was available in my area on 3/1. Hoorah.

Now, where I'd been ready to plunk the money down to upgrade to D* HD/DVR service, I think I just might wait and see how TiVO Series 3 looks and find out if it'll work well with either Comcast or WOW (both HD cables available in my area).

I can't imagine my response is what D* is looking for. I also can't imagine why they couldn't have predicted it.

-Ravi


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## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

ScoB said:


> As to the advantages, well in my case 2 years ago I bought a Hughes E86 for $700, last year I bought a HUGES HD HTL also for $700. Both are now in my garage collecting dust. If I could have 'leased' HD receivers back then for even $99 upfront, I could be replacing them 6 more times to cover my original purchase price for EACH one. That's right, getting new technology every few years with a small upfront payment.
> 
> IMO, thats an advantage.


You seem to be misunderstanding me. I'll say again that I'm not against leasing. In fact, I like the idea of leasing. But I don't consider what D* is doing "leasing". You talk about a $99 up front lease...that's exactly what I would consider a lease. I would then expect a monthly payment in the range of $10-$15. $499 up front is not a good lease deal, especially when just a month ago I bought the same unit for $399 and own it. I understand what is being said about paying up front and not having a monthly payment, but I don't consider that a lease at all. Besides, I don't think that's the case. As I (try) to read the lease agreement, it appears there is a $4.99 fee per month per unit. It's difficult to discern whether that applies to all units, or just the units above and beyond their arbitrary limits (total of 6 receivers including no more than 2 DVRs, 2 HD, and 1 HD DVR). If I read that correctly, it adds even more fuel to my fire. Sounds like either you can't have more than one HD DVR leased, or you have to pay $4.99 per month for each "extra" HD DVR. Ridiculous when added to an enormous up front cost. The whole idea of leasing, as I said earlier, is that you're only paying for it while you use it. The tradeoff for that advantage is that you don't get to own it. But, again, D* is charging the full price (and of course I understand your point about resale vs. "full" price, but I mean that I'm paying the same now or more than I was when I could buy to own) with no added benefits and I can no longer own the equipment. So my point continues to be that while, in theory, leasing has advantages that I like, I disagree that what D* is doing should be called leasing given the extremely high up front costs. The only thing that would change my mind on that is if they pro-rated the cost and refunded you when you turned in the equipment based on that. That would work out the same in the end. But since I don't believe they do that as part of their "lease", then I can't agree with calling it a lease and it has less benefits than owning at the same price.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

eengert said:


> You seem to be misunderstanding me.
> *No, I don't think so.*
> 
> I'll say again that I'm not against leasing. In fact, I like the idea of leasing.
> ...


*You are entitled to your opinions. 
When I turned in my leased car, they didn't refund my down paymemtn to me. But whether or not YOU agree with calling it a lease, it is INDEED BEING CALLED A LEASE by DirecTV.*


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## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

ScoB said:


> *You are entitled to your opinions.
> When I turned in my leased car, they didn't refund my down paymemtn to me. But whether or not YOU agree with calling it a lease, it is INDEED BEING CALLED A LEASE by DirecTV.*


Your comments don't seem very relevant to my points. I get the impression that you like being argumentative for the sake of having an argument, but you're not really responding to my points. Anyway, I've shared my concerns with this new policy and I think I'll end my involvement with this thread here.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

eengert said:


> Your comments don't seem very relevant to my points. I get the impression that you like being argumentative for the sake of having an argument, but you're not really responding to my points. Anyway, I've shared my concerns with this new policy and I think I'll end my involvement with this thread here.


Too many of your points are not accurate - but of course its not you that's argumentative.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

eengert said:


> Your comments don't seem very relevant to my points. I get the impression that you like being argumentative for the sake of having an argument, but you're not really responding to my points. Anyway, I've shared my concerns with this new policy and I think I'll end my involvement with this thread here.


Well - I just read both sides of this one - I'm leaning towards Sco. But if $99 upfront would be a lease to you, and $499 would not - what is the border?

I don't agree with all of his statements, but he did answer you point by point.

My bottom line - since you already own your stuff - what difference does it make to you anyhow? Seems like you just wanted to have this very type of argument.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I'm even going to leave this one alone.


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## ScoB (Dec 25, 2005)

Whatever - It is not really at all popular to take the side supporting D* - but I am just trying to look at it from their side and present what I believe would be their 'argument'. We all speculate, we really don't get any response directly back from D* or any of these companies. D* is the one making the multi-millions, they must be doing SOMETHING right. They have more subs than DISH don't they?

But from the bottom of my heart, this place has shown to me that no matter what D*, DISH, cable, etc do, there are just way too many people complaining. Everything from HD-Lite, to wanting EVERY imaginable channel (including ones that don't exist yet). It certainly would be great if all of this TV was free, if the equipment was free - but that also is never gonna be again. (I'm not talking about OTA). 

I know that if any of these providers asked us all to pay what it would cost them to get immediate the capacity to do EVERYTHING - now that would just cause even more complaints. 

There is absolutely no single provider that offers everything - we all choose who we have based on our own situations, most of us do have choices, none of them perfect for our tastes. Some peeps complain when new channels with sports are added, some can't get enough sports, etc.

But wolff - who cares if YOU leave this alone (I don't). Again you show that you believe your title - 'icon'. You mis-read my previous posts, and ended up blaming me for that. I answered yours and this other fellows sentence by sentence - not to be argumentative as you suggest - but rather because both of you don't seem to read entire sentences, you just read a couple of words and think you know it all.

But you win. I won't be back here. Too much whining - just like I said in post #2 of this thread. 

TaTa


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## dan8379 (Feb 13, 2006)

I guess one thing that makes D*'s lease structure different from a car lease is the percentage of the overall cost of the product that you have to put down up front. From what I've read the new HD-DVR will be $799 to purchase, or $499 to lease. That means that you have to put down 62% of the purchase price as a down payment. Most people wouldn't plunk down over $12,000 up front on a lease of a $20,000 car. I really think if they did a $200 up front (for the HD DVR) and even a $10/month lease fee people would be much happier. There would still be complaints, no doubt, but it would be much easier for a lot of people to swallow.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

dan8379 said:


> I guess one thing that makes D*'s lease structure different from a car lease is the percentage of the overall cost of the product that you have to put down up front. From what I've read the new HD-DVR will be $799 to purchase, or $499 to lease. That means that you have to put down 62% of the purchase price as a down payment. Most people wouldn't plunk down over $12,000 up front on a lease of a $20,000 car. I really think if they did a $200 up front (for the HD DVR) and even a $10/month lease fee people would be much happier. There would still be complaints, no doubt, but it would be much easier for a lot of people to swallow.


I agree with whoever made the comment that pricing (lease or purchase) will ultimately be determined by how many people say YES and how many people say no. Also, as stated, the OVERWHELMING majority of subscribers DO NOT visit sites like this and are really not educated as most of the people that do. DirecTV, like EVERY other for-profit company has the right to, made a strategic decision and the fact is - it can either fail miserably or suceeds tremendously - time will tell.

There has also been rampant conversation about how DirecTV will upgrade the current HD-DVR population. I have seen opinions all over the spectrum on this - from no additional upfront charges for current lease customers and so on. I'm willing to bet that if the upgrade charge is in fact reasonable, this uproar will disappear. From what I read, almost everyone here already owns their gear, they are not leasing, and are mostly worried about how the impending MPEG4 switchover will be handled and how this will affect them.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Read it and weep:

Just checked the BestBuy website - looks like they have finally realized that they are LEASING not selling - pasted below are the T&C taken directly off the website. Mentions both NEW & EXISTING customers.

DIRECTV Terms and Conditions

By placing this order you agree to the following terms and conditions:

• *YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT YOU HAVE NOT PURCHASED THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT, YOU DO NOT OWN THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT AND THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT MUST BE USED AND RETURNED TO DIRECTV STRICTLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS OF THE EQUIPMENT LEASE ADDENDUM AND THE DIRECTV CUSTOMER AGREEMENT. *
• PROGRAMMING AGREEMENT. Within 30 days of provision of DIRECTV equipment to you, you agree to activate any DIRECTV® TOTAL CHOICE® programming package (valued at $44.99 per mo. or above), or any DIRECTV PARA TODOS® programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo. or above); or any qualifying international services bundle, which bundle shall include either the DIRECTV® BASIC programming package (valued at $9.99 per mo.) or the DIRECTV PREFERRED CHOICE? programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo.) together with any WorldDirect? international-language service. In certain markets, programming and pricing may vary. 
• DVR service activation ($5.99/mo.) required for DVR and HD DVR leases. 
• PROGRAMMING AND PRICING SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME. 
• PROGRAMMING COMMITMENT. The programming package(s) must be maintained for a period of not less than (a) twelve (12) consecutive months (for accounts with only standard receiver(s)), or (b) twenty-four (24) consecutive months (for accounts with advanced product(s)/receiver(s)-digital video recorder (DVR), high definition receiver (HD) or high definition digital video recorder (HDDVR), including additional DIRECTV receiver(s)). After you have fulfilled your agreement to the required programming package(s), you are not obligated to continue your subscription to DIRECTV programming for any specific duration. *Current DIRECTV customers may activate additional receivers with their existing DIRECTV programming package.* THIS PROGRAMMING COMMITMENT IS SEPARATE AND DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER PROGRAMMING COMMITMENT YOU MAY HAVE MADE WITH DIRECTV AND IS FULLY ENFORCEABLE UNDER THESE TERMS. 
•* MONTHLY LEASE FEE*. For a new DIRECTV customer, you will be charged a monthly lease fee in the amount of $4.99 per 2nd and each additional receiver leased by you in your household. *For a current customer, you will be charged a monthly fee in the amount of $4.99 for each receiver leased *by you in your household, unless you replace all of your owned-equipment with leased equipment, in which case, the monthly lease fee will be waived for the 1st receiver. Applicable taxes will apply. LEASE FEE SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME. 
• CARE OF EQUIPMENT. You are responsible for the loss of or any damage to the DIRECTV equipment that you have leased from DIRECTV. You shall have no right to sell, give away, transfer, pledge, mortgage, remove, relocate, alter or tamper with the DIRECTV equipment at any time. DIRECTV PROVIDES YOU THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT AS IS, AND MAKES NO WARRANTY, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, REGARDING THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT PROVIDED TO YOU. ALL SUCH WARRANTIES INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ARE EXPRESSLY EXCLUDED. DIRECTV IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RELATING TO THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT PROVIDED TO YOU. In the event the DIRECTV equipment you have leased from DIRECTV does not operate, contact DIRECTV at 1-800-531-5000. 
• CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR FAILURE TO ACTIVATE PROGRAMMING OR SATISFY YOUR PROGRAMMING COMMITMENT. If you fail to activate your DIRECTV equipment within 30 days of DIRECTV's provision of the DIRECTV equipment to you, you agree that DIRECTV or an authorized DIRECTV Retailer may charge you a fee, as liquidated damages, of $150 for each receiver that is not activated. If you fail to maintain your minimum programming commitment, you agree that DIRECTV may charge you a prorated fee of up to $150 for standard receivers and up to $300 for advanced products/receivers (e.g. DVR, HD, HD DVR, etc.). 
• RETURN OF DIRECTV EQUIPMETNT. If you cancel your order prior to installation, we will issue a full refund. However, once your system is installed and activated, we do not accept returns or issue refunds. 
• After installation, if you cease to be DIRECTV's customer for any reason (whether voluntary or involuntary) or if you decide to disconnect/cancel/terminate your DVR service (if you are leasing a DVR Receiver), you must call DIRECTV within seven (7) days after the termination of your DIRECTV programming services or DVR service, as applicable, to (i) make arrangements for DIRECTV to pick up all of your DIRECTV equipment; or (ii) obtain information from DIRECTV necessary to arrange for a ground or air freight service to pick up and deliver all of your DIRECTV equipment to DIRECTV. You acknowledge that the DIRECTV equipment belongs to DIRECTV and the DIRECTV equipment, including the access card inserted into each receiver, must be returned to DIRECTV in good working order, normal wear and tear excepted. In the event that all of the DIRECTV equipment is not returned to DIRECTV within thirty (30) days of the termination of your DIRECTV programming services or is damaged when it is returned to DIRECTV, you agree to pay DIRECTV the sum of $55 per each DIRECTV standard receiver; $200 for each DIRECTV DVR Receiver; $240 for each DIRECTV HD Receiver; or $470 for each DIRECTV HD DVR Receiver that is not returned to DIRECTV or that is damaged when it is returned to DIRECTV as compensation for a portion of the expenses incurred by DIRECTV in establishing your account and providing you the DIRECTV equipment for your use. Visit DIRECTV.com or call 1-800- 531-5000 for details. 
• Your receiver must be continuously connected to a land-based phone line to activate certain sports programming and to allow pay per view ordering by remote control. 
• All ACH transactions are subject to settle the day after the order is placed. 
• ARBITRATION. You and DIRECTV agree that both parties will resolve any dispute arising under this Equipment Lease Addendum, the DIRECTV Customer Agreement or any other addendum thereto, or regarding your DIRECTV programming service, through binding arbitration as fully set forth in the DIRECTV Customer Agreement.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

HD Impatient - Do you have a link to the DirecTV Lease thingy on www.bestbuy.com? I can not find it and the people in the Best Buy On-line help section swear up and down that the HR10-250 they offer on the web page is a direct SALE not a lease. I know the stores have the lease thing going but what about the on-line stuff?

I was able to BUY a DirecTV HR10-250 online from NewEgg.com for $409.99. I made sure this was an outright sale before I completed the order. However I had one heck of a time getting DirecTV to activate it as MY equipment. It took the better part of two hours and talking to many different people at different levels. But, once a guy in the authorization card section found out that DirecTV would STILL activate equipment purchased after March 1, 2006, it was done.

So, DirecTV CSR's do not know about this policy, but It does exist. DirecTV has no way to prevent retailers from selling DirecTV equipment at any price they feel is fair. There is still a lot of equipment in the retail pipelines that is being SOLD. DirecTV will activate that equipment, but the subscriber needs to know the policy.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Bill Wood said:


> HD Impatient - Do you have a link to the DirecTV Lease thingy on www.bestbuy.com? I can not find it and the people in the Best Buy On-line help section swear up and down that the HR10-250 they offer on the web page is a direct SALE not a lease. I know the stores have the lease thing going but what about the on-line stuff?
> 
> I was able to BUY a DirecTV HR10-250 online from NewEgg.com for $409.99. I made sure this was an outright sale before I completed the order. However I had one heck of a time getting DirecTV to activate it as MY equipment. It took the better part of two hours and talking to many different people at different levels. But, once a guy in the authorization card section found out that DirecTV would STILL activate equipment purchased after March 1, 2006, it was done.
> 
> So, DirecTV CSR's do not know about this policy, but It does exist. DirecTV has no way to prevent retailers from selling DirecTV equipment at any price they feel is fair. There is still a lot of equipment in the retail pipelines that is being SOLD. DirecTV will activate that equipment, but the subscriber needs to know the policy.


here's the link - then click on terms and conditions:

http://bestbuydtv.getconnected.com/existing_customer.asp


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Hey Bill Wood - answer if you kindly will this hypothetical question...

Suppose later on this year when the new H20-250 (if that's the correct model) MPEG4 HD DVR is released, DirecTV says:

1) Subs leasing the H10-250 can upgrade for free or a nominal fee to the new box

2) Subs that acquired boxes after 3/1/06 and INSISTED that they wanted to own not lease will NOT get a break (trade-in credits or nominal upgrade cost) - at least unless they return the old equipment and accept the new lease terms

They certainly can't be happy that people are trying to get around their new policies. Doubtful that a person that insists on keeping the older box can get anywhere near the same deal as a lease customer that must return the DVR, or a purchased customer also willing to give it back - don't you agree?

This could all lead to you (and others) having to get yet another HD DVR shortly in order to capture MPEG4.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

HDImpatient said:


> Hey Bill Wood - answer if you kindly will this hypothetical question...
> 
> Suppose later on this year when the new H20-250 (if that's the correct model) MPEG4 HD DVR is released, DirecTV says:
> 
> ...


Are we now inventing our own policies for DTV? If so, how about:

3) If you already owned a HR10-250 prior to the creation of this lease program and that unit was purchased on a Wednesday, we owe you two units of equal or greater value.

I understand your point, but let's not get too far out there. If someone wants to own, cripe, how's that hurt you?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Are we now inventing our own policies for DTV? If so, how about:
> 
> 3) If you already owned a HR10-250 prior to the creation of this lease program and that unit was purchased on a Wednesday, we owe you two units of equal or greater value.
> 
> I understand your point, but let's not get too far out there. If someone wants to own, cripe, how's that hurt you?


Doesn't hurt me at all (matter of fact I do own). But before I let you get in a fight with me also (from what I see at the top of this thread you also threw your two cents in on another post not directed to you and started an argument), I'll end this - gee whiz, for a person that has openly stated many opinions, sorry you were offended that I was asking for one. I see a lot of people around here asking others what they think. Seems like you don't mind at all responding and putting down others on on your terms (even when it is NOT you who was asked a question).

I just wanted to know if Bill would be put-off if they decide to treat lease customers different than purchase customers. Part of the original lease letter stated that one reason for the change was upgrade possiblilities and things like that. I think that it is a very distinct possibility that upgrades for people leasing will be handled differently.

My big question to YOU - since I was asking Bill Wood - and you decided to respond - why was it hurting you? I hope all see now that is is you is argumentative to new members. Damn, I only joined this week and you butted in on 2 people and were very rude.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

HDImpatient said:


> I just wanted to know if Bill would be put-off if they decide to treat lease customers different than purchase customers. Part of the original lease letter stated that one reason for the change was upgrade possiblilities and things like that. I think that it is a very distinct possibility that upgrades for people leasing will be handled differently.


I wonder what they do with people who own and who have the protection plan. More so what they do when they run out of units to replace yours with. Will they still swap them for a like model or tell you sorry you have to lease on from us since we no longer have that one instock to swap it out with. Hopefully it won't happen but I can see it happening.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I wonder what they do with people who own and who have the protection plan. More so what they do when they run out of units to replace yours with. Will they still swap them for a like model or tell you sorry you have to lease on from us since we no longer have that one instock to swap it out with. Hopefully it won't happen but I can see it happening.


If it continues like in the past, they say right upfront when you call that they don't have to swap for an IDENTICAL unit, but a unit (new or reconditioned) that has at least all of the same features. I can't see that this would ever be a problem for them.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I wonder what they do with people who own and who have the protection plan.


I would hope that the protection plan included in the new pricing scheme.


> More so what they do when they run out of units to replace yours with.


I would imagine that when they run out of serviceable DTiVos, you'll get a non-TiVo.


> Will they still swap them for a like model or tell you sorry you have to lease on from us since we no longer have that one instock to swap it out with.


Has it been established that there is a difference in monthly rates between owned and leased receivers?


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I wonder what they do with people who own and who have the protection plan. More so what they do when they run out of units to replace yours with. Will they still swap them for a like model or tell you sorry you have to lease on from us since we no longer have that one instock to swap it out with. Hopefully it won't happen but I can see it happening.


I wondered the same thing but I don't think they have the right to change us over from "owned" to "leased" just because we get a defective replacement under the protection plan. I also found it odd that they reduced the protection plan charge from $7.99/mo for those of us with HD or DVR equipment down to $5.99/mo.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

harsh said:


> ... Has it been established that there is a difference in monthly rates between owned and leased receivers?


The net effect is there is no difference in the monthly charge for leased vs owned or a mix of the two. See thread here for a copy of terms and condition with an example.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

HDImpatient said:


> here's the link - then click on terms and conditions:
> 
> http://bestbuydtv.getconnected.com/existing_customer.asp


As best I can tell your link is to a Best Buy store web site and not www.bestbuy.com Nowhere on bestbuy.com is there a similar policy either linked or in their own terms and conditions.

According to the people who handle the online stuff the stores and www.bestbuy.com have different policies. On-line sells DirecTV advanced products, such as the HR10-250, outright. The stores only lease DirecTV equipment.

As to your other question, I doubt I will get DirecTV's new non-TiVo HD DVR under any circumstances. I am in the LA DMA and expect to use my DirecTV TiVo DVR's for at least another two years. Maybe by then DirecTV will have introduced something better than a MPEG4 HD version of the really bad R15!

The HR10-250 might be slow and a little temperamental, but it is the Best HD DVR out there.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Bill Wood said:


> The HR10-250 might be slow and a little temperamental, but it is the Best HD DVR out there.


Agreed. Boy an upgrade to 6.2 sure would help the "slow" side of that problem.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

No, actually that link is for and from the on-line website. Do you not see the link entitled 'Buy Now'?

Another way to access it directly from www.bestbuy.com is as follows. On the bestbuy website, click on electronics, click on DirecTV, click on new customers, click on link on that page that says 'Current Customer'? learn more..., and there you go you get the same link for the T&C.

You know what? I don't think YOU are wrong, I do think the people you spoke to at BB customer service are wrong (gee what a suprise).

As far as the other - I was trying to get your opinion on how you would feel if DirecTV offers a different upggrade policy for its lease and non-lease customers. Your opinion shouldn't matter if its not about YOU. This really might be the way that they eventually migrate everyone to the lease plan over time.


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## Robert L (Dec 13, 2005)

So, what happens with people that has a extended warranty from somewhere like CC? I've had to turn two 10-250's back in for exchange in the past. The way CC always handles it is to just totally refund the purchased, then basically resell it again, and the warranty starts back over. So if it was a 3 year warranty, once its turned back in, it all starts back over. 

It doesn't make much sense too me the way they do that, but thats the way they did it, both times. That means if within the next 1.5 years my HR-10-250 goes out, and I exchange it, when I call directv they will try to make it a lease. 

Of course its not going to work with me, and I probably could get it changed since I'd just cancel if Directv didn't. Actually I'm wondering now how CC will handle that extended warranty, since they always wanted to reset it and start over. I assume they wouldn't even have a extended warrantly available now. 

Well, I don't like the lease program at all. There is nothing about it I like and while its not affecting me at all now, at somepoint in time it will. I'm only interested in HD DVR boxes, and I will not pay them $400 for something I will never own. Just like its been stated everywhere, thats not really a lease, considering the percent up front they want. Also it doesn't cost them $800 to make the thing, I know why they claim that but there is noway. 

No, I cannot give you a link or anything else, but I've been involved with consumer electronics enough to know that they just don't. Sure, they have start up costs and R&R, but nobody made them jump off and design their own mess. But its still not costing $800 to make it. Sure, the current lease plan with bring them in more money, thats for sure. But, thats going too far for me to be very interested anymore. 

I can see people not saying much that are just getting the SD stuff, but I really do think any new subscriber would back off after hearing how that lease works. Its always been my understanding that one of the reasons people went to satelllite dishes is to get away from a cable company lease. 

Now in some ways its worse with Directv than cable. Thats my opinion of course. No doubt cable is much better than the past, but the way most have dragged their feet with the software part of the DVR'S, they are screwing up a chance to really take back some of the people they lost. Of course lots go back anyway. 

I'll be interested in the new Series 3 HD tivo, it it ever exists and works. I would rather pay a 3 year lease type thing they released a few days ago, than deal with Directv or a cable DVR. If Tivo don't go crazy with the montly fee, I will probably go with that and a cable card. At least after 3 years or whatever time one picks, the box belongs to me and the fee per month will go back to the service fee. 

Its would cost me right now $15 a month for a SA8300HD, and I would want 3. So for me I would just pay the difference, if Tivo actually comes out with something, and cables cards work like they should. No doubt the HD picture is better on TWC in my area, than directv. Also Verzion is laying their fiber all around my house, but I doubt it comes online for a good while yet. 

I've been with satellite since the beginning of C-band and with Directv around 12 years. All that time my montly bill has been around $135. Lately though, lots of things they are doing just bothers me, while in the past it didn't. I'm not going to agree to another 2 yrs, even though if I did, it wouldn't stop me from leaving. 

I've always liked Directv over Dish. I didn't like the C-band equipment Charlie used way back in the 80's, and I didn't like what he uses for the small dish. Thats just my opinion. But since Directv wants to basically do the same thing, that means I'm not liking them very much anymore. Charlie has amused me with what he was able to do, but having a rather large C-band based dealer network really helped him in the beginning.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

You are surely 100% correct that is doesn't cost $800 to manufacture the HD DVR. I know in my own business I don't sell things for what I pay for them, do you? If these companies could not make a return and their investment, upfront monies laid out for new satellites, new technology, infrastructure, etc. - they wouldn't survive. Do you really think that they should not make a profit? 

Don't you remember that not too long ago Echostar was ready to sell out to DirecTV? Can you only imagine the pricing and the packages if one of these companies became a monopoly?

Just as the landscape has changed in the past two years (I purchased HD receviers for $700, others purchased HD DVR for $1100), it will surely be different in 2 more years. I also am not affected today by the change, but 2 years from now is when I also expect to get in play. 

New subs are not really affected at all by the lease plan (unless they don't want to committ to 2 years. However remember that the cancellation fee is pro-rated - the only people who would pay $300 are those cancelling in the first month - AND THAT IS FAIR. They come and install a new dish, they come and wire your house - if you cancel the first month TOO BAD. I wouldn't want that kind of person as a customer either.


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## Robert L (Dec 13, 2005)

No, I don't expect anyone to sell at or under cost. Even though people don't seem to mind when things are dumped in the USA that way, putting some out of business. 

The reason I said what I did about their hd-dvr is, I keep reading in different places that the buy price is cost, and the lease price is under. Thats crazy and the cost is under the least upfront price. Directv is suppose to be making most of their money on the programming anyway. But they can attempt to charge whatever they like of course. They didn't even build much equipment for many years. 

New Subs that want a hd-dvr will be affected and maybe that will go over ok or maybe it won't. I've never had a problem with the committment but I do with 2 years. Anyway, I understand what they're doing, it just don't really appeal to me. I've never called them for a discount and never received one. I paid the full price for the HR10-250's I have an its very unlikely I'll even want what they replace it with. 

I also thought they were in competition with cable but I guess its just Dish. I know cable will just love this new lease plan, the way they twist things up advertising. 

I'm not a Tivo lover but it works and records when its suppose too. Why that is so complicated for some other companies to built is kind of weird. 

But who knows Directv might make some changes that will change my mind. I'm not dropping them for now but within the next year its very possible I will.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

HDImpatient said:


> No, actually that link is for and from the on-line website. Do you not see the link entitled 'Buy Now'?
> 
> Another way to access it directly from www.bestbuy.com is as follows. On the bestbuy website, click on electronics, click on DirecTV, click on new customers, click on link on that page that says 'Current Customer'? learn more..., and there you go you get the same link for the T&C.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, there still is no link to "learn more" on any of these pages I went through to buy an HR10-250. Check these links out:

BestBuy DirecTV page: http://tinyurl.com/l5fq5
Existing Customer Shop Now page: http://tinyurl.com/jueoh
Best Buy Hr10-250 page: http://tinyurl.com/amcja
There is no "Learn More" or any other link that has the DirecTV terms and conditions that are here: http://bestbuydtv.getconnected.com/existing_customer.asp

Then call the bestbuy.com CSR's at 1-888-500-3855 and ask them if the HR10-250 is an outright sale item. Again, I worked my way up through different bestbuy.com supervisors and they still say that buying this product through is an outright sale, not a lease. That bestbuy.com has different policies than the thirdparty site on bestbuydtv.getconnected.com It is a different company!


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Bill Wood said:


> Believe it or not, there still is no link to "learn more" on any of these pages I went through to buy an HR10-250. Check these links out:
> 
> BestBuy DirecTV page: http://tinyurl.com/l5fq5
> Existing Customer Shop Now page: http://tinyurl.com/jueoh
> ...


I can't believe that you could not find the terms and conditions at the llink:
http://bestbuydtv.getconnected.com/existing_customer.asp. When you get to this page, you will see a link on the left entitled terms and conditions. Just click on that. Also, you can plainly read that this site is BestBuy.com


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

The site in your link is getconnected.com. whois for getconnected.com returns the following:


```
Registrant: 
  Inc.  GetConnected 
     Computer Software Development & Apps 
     77 N Washington St 
     Suite 9000 
     Boston  MA 02114 
     US 
     Domain Name: GETCONNECTED.COM 
     Administrative Contact: 
        Inc.  GetConnected [email protected]
 
        Computer Software Development & Apps 
        77 N Washington St 
        Suite 9000 
        Boston  MA 02114 
        US 
        (617) 878-4400 fax: 617-878-4579 
     Technical Contact: 
        [email protected]
 
        Navisite 
        2720 Zanker Rd 
        San Jose  CA 95134 
        US 
        408-965-9600 fax: 123 123 1234 
     Record expires on 15-Oct-2008. 
     Record created on 18-Apr-1995.
```
whois for bestbuy.com returns:


```
Registrant: 
  Bestbuy Enterprise Services  Inc. 
     7601 Penn Avenue South 
     Richfield  MN 55423 
     US 
     Domain Name: BESTBUY.COM 
     Administrative Contact: 
        Bestbuy Enterprise Services  [email][email protected][/email]
 
        7601 Penn Avenue South 
        Richfield  MN 55423 
        US 
        612 291 1000 
     Technical Contact: 
        Bestbuy Enterprise Services  [email][email protected][/email]
 
        7601 Penn Avenue South 
        Richfield  MN 55423 
        US 
        612 291 1000 
     Record expires on 04-Mar-2007. 
     Record created on 03-Mar-1994.
```
At face value those do not seem to be the same organization to me.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

HDImpatient said:


> I can't believe that you could not find the terms and conditions at the llink:
> http://bestbuydtv.getconnected.com/existing_customer.asp. When you get to this page, you will see a link on the left entitled terms and conditions. Just click on that. Also, you can plainly read that this site is BestBuy.com


Good catch Wolffpack. Looks like a phishing site to me. Be careful! :eek2:

You try to do anything and it asks for New Customer Verification and wants your personal info including SS number.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

hiker said:


> Good catch Wolffpack. Looks like a phishing site to me. Be careful! :eek2:
> 
> You try to do anything and it asks for New Customer Verification and wants your personal info including SS number.


On closer inspection you guys caught NOTHING. Both of you are on the wrong track - first lets go back to the BestBuy homepage - www.bestbuy.com

Put your mouse on the electronics tab, you will get a drop down menu - click on DirecTV.

Now you have 2 choices - new customers or existing customers - click on new customers. Click on the learn more link near the bottom where it says Current Customer - and there you are. Now how do either of you explain it?

Oh - and BTW. It also says on this page clearly that a company named GetConnected hosts and operates the DirecTV System section of the BestBuy website. Still not believing?

All you have to do is go to the website for GetConnected http://www.getconnected.com/
And instead of passing incorrect info you would see that this is indeed a reputable company doing business for MANY broadband and internet companies - Oh, I also looked on Hoovers (hope you know what that is) and GetConnected is certainly a reputable company.

Also, the whois wolff posted is accurate - it lists the correct information for GetConnected (as it should).

Looks legit to me - what do you guys think now?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

hiker said:


> Good catch Wolffpack. Looks like a phishing site to me. Be careful! :eek2:
> 
> You try to do anything and it asks for New Customer Verification and wants your personal info including SS number.


hiker - I also wanted to let peeps know that any NEW customer for DirecTV is asked upfront for personal info and SS number for a credit check. You DO NOT have to give it, it is optional - but you would have to give them a security deposit instead. And if you go back to the page you were describing, there is a link next to where it asks for SSN and clearly tells you that giving it is OPTIONAL (and the rest of the baloney about the deposit).


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

It seems to be legit. You can't be too careful.
I would not do business with any company whose web site asks for a SS number online whether optional or not.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

hiker said:


> It seems to be legit. You can't be too careful.
> I would not do business with any company whose web site asks for a SS number online.


Guess you have never done an on-line app for a credit card, or mortgage or really so many many things. They ALL ask for a SSN these days.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

HDImpatient said:


> Guess you have never done an on-line app for a credit card, or mortgage or really so many many things. They ALL ask for a SSN these days.


LMAO - go to www.directv and make believe you are placing a new customer order. Guess what they ask for - that's right you got it.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

That's a red flag to me and a good way to get your identity stolen. I think it might even be illegal. Never done it and never will.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

HDImpatient said:


> Guess you have never done an on-line app for a credit card, or mortgage or really so many many things. They ALL ask for a SSN these days.


That's right, I have never done an on-line app for a credit card, or mortgage, or really so many many things. I would NEVER provide my SSN on-line. I'm even very hesitant to use on-line access to existing accounts I have. The limited on-line business I do is restricted to a single credit card that is used for nothing else, and none of my other cards are used on-line.

Maybe in another five or ten years computer security will reach a level of marginally acceptable. It certainly isn't there now.

Carl


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

carl6 said:


> That's right, I have never done an on-line app for a credit card, or mortgage, or really so many many things. I would NEVER provide my SSN on-line. I'm even very hesitant to use on-line access to existing accounts I have. The limited on-line business I do is restricted to a single credit card that is used for nothing else, and none of my other cards are used on-line.
> 
> Maybe in another five or ten years computer security will reach a level of marginally acceptable. It certainly isn't there now.
> 
> Carl


True. However, even when you go to the retail store to activate DirecTV - they take your info (including SSN) - then THEY send it over the internet. Not much different is it?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

HDImpatient said:


> True. However, even when you go to the retail store to activate DirecTV - they take your info (including SSN) - then THEY send it over the internet. Not much different is it?


They may use the Internet and if so they will have a VPN wrapped around it. But for secure info such as that they may also use Fame Relay or Point to Point connections to their vendors. Suffice to say BB, CC and DTV don't send info such as this in clear text and know exactly who they are sending it to. No worry about phishing.


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

hiker said:


> That's a red flag to me and a good way to get your identity stolen. I think it might even be illegal. Never done it and never will.


This is silly paranoia. You sound like an old lady. 99.999% of identity theft occurs by USPS mail theft.


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## vurbano (May 15, 2004)

Bill Wood said:


> I sent a message to Best Buy asking if their web HR10-250 (http://tinyurl.com/cqv5m) is a sale or lease. Here is the verbatum answer:
> 
> "Bill,
> 
> ...


Hmm all the sale Ads this Sunday said "LEASE"


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

And the BB website now informs us that it is a lease also as HDImpatient has pointed out. Another sad case of uniformed CSRs. Get everything in writing is a good policy but in this case even the email is wrong.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

hiker said:


> And the BB website now informs us that it is a lease also as HDImpatient has pointed out. Another sad case of uniformed CSRs. Get everything in writing is a good policy but in this case even the email is wrong.


Seems in EVERY company the CSR's are the last to know things.

Also, since for over a year now DirecTV has controlled the distribution of receivers, you just gotta believe that it is LEASE ONLY going forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah - there are going to be exceptions in the short run (stores that make a mistake or maybe are planning to stop being a D* dealer) - or if a person who has been a long-time sub makes a stink and calls 20 different people (we see that example already). The new dealer agreement letter CLEARLY says if a dealer does not agree to the lease deal they will be terminated.

But as for the masses - accept it for now.......it is lease. That is what they want for now, that is what they think will reduce churn, that is what they think will help their bottom line. The people predicting a quick demise of this are dreaming. I am not saying that it will NEVER change, I am saying that IMO it is at least 6-12 months before they will make a major change if their numbers are not on target. Remember they had a MAJOR sales push (big rebates) the last Q of '05 into Feb of '06.

Again, for me it doesn't matter. I upgraded to MPEG4 in January, I own ALL of my stuff (I actually have 4 old receivers in my garage). I made sure that since I wanted to own that I was set before 3/01. I really don't know why anyone that was going to get additional stuff and wanted to own would have waited until this month to act.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

vurbano said:


> Hmm all the sale Ads this Sunday said "LEASE"


If you are a new DirecTV customer the www.bestbuy.com web site directs you to their third-party vendor getconnected.com. They have DIFFERENT policies when it comes to "leasing" DirecTV equipment. Best Buy stores also use getconnected.com to handle NEW DirecTV customers.

If you click on Existing Customers Shop Now on the www.bestbuy.com web site your will NOT have to lease DirecTV equipment purchased on line. You will not be asked for your SSN nor will have to give up your first born to get the equipment.

The draconian lease provisions on the getconnected.com web site do NOT apply to DirecTV equipment purchased on line from bestbuy.com. Please understand that DirecTV can not dictate what www.best.buy.com SELLS their DirecTV equipment for.

www.crutchfield.com also SELLS the HR10-250 for $499 outright. They do not require a DirecTV lease either. newegg.SELLS the HR10-250 for $409. I bought one and had it activated as MY equipment last week.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

Thanks Bill Wood, I think you cleared up the confusion, for me anyway. Maybe the BB CSR was right after all, she just didn't mention anything about it being for existing customers only. I wonder if you can buy to own in the store or only online?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Bill - I know you don't want to hear it, but I called getconnected - they handle ALL DirecTV orders both at the store and online to both new AND existing customers. As I thought, they told me that there was some initial confusion with all of the changes - and that shortly when you click on existing customer it will open the same type of page as the new customers - and that it will certainly be a lease agreement going forward. 

Anyhow, no real need to argue, if a retailer wants to sell you some receivers, they CAN - no argument there. But rest assured, that by the time the HR20 comes out NO retailers will be selling it unless the whole lease model is modified - if they haven't signed the new dealer agreement - they won't be getting boxes to sell. 

I think the best track for all in this discussion is to agree that it appears a couple of retailers are still selling the boxes - the next step though is getting D* to agree to activate them as owned - BTW, did you also have to re-committ for 24 more months to activate your new DVR?

Let's see what the landscape is like in 4-6 weeks, I predict lease only by then.


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## Fl_Gulfer (Apr 28, 2005)

Well I received a reply to a email I sent the Florida Attorney General about the sale of the HR10-250 the last 6 months and the great deals they were offering to its customers, And stating that they would upgrade the receivers to the new mpeg4 ones when they come out for free or little money, Then switching to Lease only this month.
The letter stated that they were investigating DirecTV and would let me know.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

I tried an experiment on the BB website and went through purchase of a HR10-250 up until the final approval. Never did getconnected.com show up and lease did not appear either. Someone else try it.


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## Fl_Gulfer (Apr 28, 2005)

All you have to do Is when you acctivate the box tell D that its a purchased box not a lease.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

hiker said:


> I tried an experiment on the BB website and went through purchase of a HR10-250 up until the final approval. Never did getconnected.com show up and lease did not appear either. Someone else try it.


I guess you didn't read my last thread. You are correct FOR NOW.

I'm done with this - I'll be back in 3-4 weeks to see if its straightened out one way or the other by then.

Since I ain't looking for anything new right now - why go back and forth?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Hey Bill Wood - have you gone on to the BestBuy website recently? I was right, and it didn't take as long as I thought it would for them to correct the website and make the change to lease for existing customers.

It's only a short matter of time for all the current retailers to have lease only.


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## Riot Nrrrd™ (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi folks ...

Newbie here, long-time AVS'er.

I stumbled upon this thread as the result of a Google search and signed up to post this.

I have found an on-line retailer that will sell me - as an "owned", not "leased" - a brand-new HR10-250 for $395.

What I see in the DirecTV Lease Terms from the SolidSignal link is that D* will only activate these units as "owned" if you (a) do it before tomorrow night (3/30); *and* (b) you purchased the unit before 2/28. Obviously I can't qualify based on the latter - and the vendor said they could not ship overnight, so I can't even get the unit here in time to get it into the system before 3/30, no matter what the purchase date is.

On the other hand, I believe that Bill Wood has posted much earlier in the thread that he bought his unit from Crutchfield as an "owned" unit after March 1st, and was successful (albeit via going through hoops) at getting D* to add his new HR10-250 as an "owned" unit. (Admittedly, he was successful at doing this before 3/30. After tomorrow, who knows what'll happen?)

Given this, is there _any_ sense in my rushing this purchase right now? I was thinking that maybe if I had _purchased_ it by 3/30 that I could feign ignorance when contacting D* to activate it and say that I was unaware that my "to own" purchase would be "re-po'ed" by DirecTV :sure:

(I currently use a Sony SAT-HD300 STB and am very satisfied with it, modulo the lack of DVR capability.)

EDIT: The on-line retailer just sent me the following: "_the 2/28 deadline was strictly for the rebate that expired then. Just BUY NOW and you own it. Moreover the so-called "mandate" is strictly for new subscribers, who have no choice but a lease starting 3/1._". My reading of the T's & C's from the Solid Signal link wasn't that it was specific to new subscribers only (or only applied to "non-premium" equipment, as Bill Wood noted). What's the real deal here?!?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

This one has gone around and around. Riot if I could own a HR10 for $395 and didn't already have way more DTivos than my wife thinks we need, and I had verification from the retailer that I would own it, I'd go for it.

I believe the common points here are that DTV stopped the incentives for retailers to "sell" DVRs with subsidies (AKA kickbacks) from DTV. DTV has also stated that customers can either lease or purchase but purchasing will be much more expensive.

Given that, it a retailer makes the decision to sell an HR10 well below his cost as a loss leader, that's the retailers decision, as far as I can tell. Retailers do that with different products. I have yet to see anything from DTV that says you cannot purchase a receiver/DVR after xx/xx/xx. If someone else has that quote or link, I'd like to take a look.


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## Riot Nrrrd™ (Mar 29, 2006)

The retailer has provided me information that it is, indeed, a "purchase to own". So that's all good on that side.

What I'm worried about is what happens when I call D* and say "I'd like to deactivate my Sony SAT-HD300 and replace it with this brand-spanking new HR10-250.". Are they going to say "Sure, we'll do that - but we now p0wn y0ur b0x" and declare it to be "leased" from _their_ standpoint, or is there someway I can get them to put it on as an "owned" box, given that the retailer categorizes it that way? The wording on the T's & C's on the Solid Signal site made it look to me like there was no way, under any circumstances, that you could get your box registered (no matter who from or how you obtained it or when) as anything but "leased" equipment after March 30th. I would love to be proven wrong, or find the magic strongarm technique Bill Wood employed to get his newer-than-March-1st purchase into the system as "owned" equipment.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Riot Nrrrd™ said:


> The retailer has provided me information that it is, indeed, a "purchase to own". So that's all good on that side.
> 
> What I'm worried about is what happens when I call D* and say "I'd like to deactivate my Sony SAT-HD300 and replace it with this brand-spanking new HR10-250.". Are they going to say "Sure, we'll do that - but we now p0wn y0ur b0x" and declare it to be "leased" from _their_ standpoint, or is there someway I can get them to put it on as an "owned" box, given that the retailer categorizes it that way? The wording on the T's & C's on the Solid Signal site made it look to me like there was no way, under any circumstances, that you could get your box registered (no matter who from or how you obtained it or when) as anything but "leased" equipment after March 30th. I would love to be proven wrong, or find the magic strongarm technique Bill Wood employed to get his newer-than-March-1st purchase into the system as "owned" equipment.


You can bet they will activate it as leased based on other posts here. Then, once you go to the Card Activation (or whatever it's called), you will explain to the CSR that the retailer you purchased this from told you it was not a lease and it was a purchase for $395, their folks they will finally say ok you own it. Then you will check back in a few days or after you receive you next statement and it will be lease again. And you'll start over again. Some have gone through this and it will take followup on you part.

From the sound of it you're worried about Solid Signal's T&Cs but your getting this elsewhere. Correct? If so, what do SS's T&Cs have to do with your purchase? SS doesn't speak for DTV and I have yet to see anything from DTV that states after March 31st no one in the universe will be able to purchase DTV equipment.

If you're not up to it, then pay whatever they're asking as lease.


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## Riot Nrrrd™ (Mar 29, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> You can bet they will activate it as leased based on other posts here. Then, once you go to the Card Activation (or whatever it's called), you will explain to the CSR that the retailer you purchased this from told you it was not a lease and it was a purchase for $395, their folks they will finally say ok you own it. Then you will check back in a few days or after you receive you next statement and it will be lease again. And you'll start over again. Some have gone through this and it will take followup on you part.


Ugh ... that sounds pretty frustrating. :nono2:



> From the sound of it you're worried about Solid Signal's T&Cs but your getting this elsewhere. Correct?


Correct.



> If so, what do SS's T&Cs have to do with your purchase? SS doesn't speak for DTV and I have yet to see anything from DTV that states after March 31st no one in the universe will be able to purchase DTV equipment.


It was my impression reading the DirecTV T&C's on the SolidSignal site that those were _DirecTV's_ T&C's in general now (under the new "lease law"), not SolidSignal's specifically. No?

I'm specifically referring to SolidSignal's DTV lease info page (www dot solidsignal dot com/dtv/dtv_lease_info.asp - I can't post URLs yet since I haven't hit 5 posts  ), in the box labeled "_For *Existing* DIRECTV Customers_", clause (2):


```
Any DIRECTV® Receiver purchased after 02/28/2006 will only be activated under DIRECTV®'s new equipment lease program.
```
I suppose there's a chance my retailer has not signed this "DirecTV Customer Equipment Lease" program that kicked in on March 1st, but they trumpet being an authorized DirecTV dealer, so I'd find that a bit hard to believe.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

All I can say is you're not going through SS so don't worry about anything they have on their site.

If you would like more comfort call DTV and ask to speak to some one that can tell you if you own or lease the equipment you're buying. My guess is you will at least get out of the first line of CSRs and then make your way up the food chain. Then let them know the retailer is telling you that this is a purchase not a lease.

Other than that, ask the retailer if you purchase this unit, and DTV will not let you own it, can you return it. If the retailer says yes, you should be good to go buddy!!!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Riot Nrrrd™ said:


> I suppose there's a chance my retailer has not signed this "DirecTV Customer Equipment Lease" program that kicked in on March 1st, but they trumpet being an authorized DirecTV dealer, so I'd find that a bit hard to believe.


Since Solid Signal doesn't make D* policy, I'm not sure I'd hang my hat on what they post; even if it is claimed to be a direct quote.

Rather than asking around to people who spend their idle hours rumor mongering and speculating, I called D* and they said that if the vendor said I "owned" the receiver, it was so. They also said that I may see the "lease fee" item show up on the bill but I should consider it an advanced equipment fee.

My question is whether you're willing to commit that kind of money to a device that is likely to be rendered "brained" in less than two years. Is there some hope that they will be useful after the 2007 shutoff date (and assuming TiVo Inc. lasts that long)?


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## Riot Nrrrd™ (Mar 29, 2006)

harsh said:


> Since Solid Signal doesn't make D* policy, I'm not sure I'd hang my hat on what they post; even if it is claimed to be a direct quote.


True, but it sure looks like a direct quote from DirecTV, not something of their own.



> Rather than asking around to people who spend their idle hours rumor mongering and speculating, I called D*






> My question is whether you're willing to commit that kind of money to a device that is likely to be rendered "brained" in less than two years. Is there some hope that they will be useful after the 2007 shutoff date (and assuming TiVo Inc. lasts that long)?


My theory is this - I'm in LA, so I expect that the MPEG-2 HD locals (which are, after all, also 1/2 of the "national" feeds) will stick around here longer than most everyplace else, so I'm likely to get a bit longer use out of an HR10-250 than most (right?). Also, my Sony SAT-HD300 STB seems to still fetch pretty decent prices on eBay so if I got rid of that as well, it would offset a decent chunk of the $395 price.

If I had any hopes that the HR20-250 was "just around the corner", I'd wait - but I've waited long enough already as it is - I've been living without _any_ DVR capability for well over 2 1/2 years now (that I've had the SAT-HD300 and my DirecTV setup), and well, I'm kinda getting tired of being taunted by all my TiVo-owning friends :lol:


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

harsh said:


> My question is whether you're willing to commit that kind of money to a device that is likely to be rendered "brained" in less than two years. Is there some hope that they will be useful after the 2007 shutoff date (and assuming TiVo Inc. lasts that long)?


Harsh,

You're taking the approach that DTV will be turning off all DTivos by the end of the current Tivo contract? Do you know the terms of the contract? Have you read the contract? Maybe 2007 is the end of DTV being able to deploy any new DTivo units.

If you do have the language of the DTV/Tivo contract please let us in on that info. It doubt it states all existing DTV Tivo units will stop working in 2007.

I don't have the contract in front of me either. But I'm guessing (as I always do) that 2007 is when DTV stops selling/leasing Tivo units.

DTV would have to do one hell of a job bringing their DVR up to snuff and then replacing millions of Tivos with their own DVR by then. Not likely. Come 2007/2008 these DTivos will still be running. That's not some hope. That's just plain fact if DTV wants to remain in business.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Riot Nrrrd™ said:


> My theory is this - I'm in LA, so I expect that the MPEG-2 HD locals (which are, after all, also 1/2 of the "national" feeds) will stick around here longer than most everyplace else, so I'm likely to get a bit longer use out of an HR10-250 than most (right?).


What kind of OTA signals can you get? Even when DTV goes to MPEG4 here in Phoenix I don't need it. I've got all stations OTA right now.

Even if DTV shuts down the HR10 in 2007, I still have a HD Tivo OTA receiver with dual tuners. Works for me.


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## Riot Nrrrd™ (Mar 29, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> What kind of OTA signals can you get? Even when DTV goes to MPEG4 here in Phoenix I don't need it. I've got all stations OTA right now.
> 
> Even if DTV shuts down the HR10 in 2007, I still have a HD Tivo OTA receiver with dual tuners. Works for me.


Crappy, unfortunately.

I live at the far east end of the San Fernando Valley, which means I'm _right up_ against the Foothills and therefore under the flight path of the OTA signals streaming off of Mt. Wilson to the east. I'm lucky to get 3 stations in at best - and this is with a top-of-the-line Blake JBX21 aerial, even. And the only one of those 3 that I can get which isn't already on D*'s 81-89 range is KCAL channel 9.1. 

While I've pondered trying to gang 2 Blakes together (horizontally stacked) and adding a pre-amp, I think it's probably a case of throwing good money after bad. I simply live in a really lousy place for OTA reception in LA, alas. <_*Sigh*_>

(I'd love to know what all the towers are that are on the top of the nearby Foothills above Sunland/Tujunga/La Crescenta, and why the heck the LA TV stations can't repeat their digital signals over to this closer-to-me secondary peak and have them beamed down to us po' directionally-challenged folk in the east end of The Valley from there. Oh well.)

Anyway - so yeah, from that angle, me buying an HR10-250 now isn't the best idea. I guess I was figuring if I got ~ $195 for my immaculate condition SAT-HD300, the HR10-250 would only set me back $200 out of pocket, and if I got a year's worth of use out of it, that'd suit me fine, I reckon.

I still can't decide whether I should pull the trigger on it, though


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Riot Nrrrd™ said:


> Crappy, unfortunately.
> 
> I live at the far east end of the San Fernando Valley, which means I'm _right up_ against the Foothills and therefore under the flight path of the OTA signals streaming off of Mt. Wilson to the east. I'm lucky to get 3 stations in at best - and this is with a top-of-the-line Blake JBX21 aerial, even. And the only one of those 3 that I can get which isn't already on D*'s 81-89 range is KCAL channel 9.1.
> 
> ...


Have you looked at www.antennaweb.org to see where your towers are and in which direction?


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## Riot Nrrrd™ (Mar 29, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Have you looked at www.antennaweb.org to see where your towers are and in which direction?


Yep - had the Blake installed professionally (same guy did my D* dish install at the same time), signal strengths checked, the whole nine yards. Almost all of the LA signals come from Mt. Wilson, and there's a hill between me and the top of Mt. Wilson. No direct line of sight, no way for the signals to reach me directly, ergo limited OTA reception. (I suppose adding a pre-amp wouldn't hurt, but I'm not sure what good it'd do, to be honest.)

Anyway, I'm veering OT - I think I'll call D* and make sure if I "own" the HR10-250 that they'll let me add it as owned, even if it's after 3/30/06. (Then I just have to worry about the fact that I don't have a land line ... )


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> You're taking the approach that DTV will be turning off all DTivos by the end of the current Tivo contract?


I'm assuming that DirecTV will discontinue making the TiVo guide data available. It is my belief that without the guide data, a DirecTiVo is practically useless.


> Do you know the terms of the contract? Have you read the contract?


No. I would imagine that this is not public information


> Maybe 2007 is the end of DTV being able to deploy any new DTivo units.


Maybe... maybe not. It depends on how "end of relationship" is interpreted. Usually this represents a complete dissolution as opposed to "I want a divorce, but you can continue to cook and clean for me".


> If you do have the language of the DTV/Tivo contract please let us in on that info. It doubt it states all existing DTV Tivo units will stop working in 2007.


I have no idea. That is why I asked the question.


> I don't have the contract in front of me either. But I'm guessing (as I always do) that 2007 is when DTV stops selling/leasing Tivo units.


I'm sure they won't "stop" until there is no more demand for them. I'm assuming that the only real "relationship" that TiVo has with D* is the use of the logo and guide data. I'm guessing that TiVo isn't just taking the logo and going to Comcast.


> DTV would have to do one hell of a job bringing their DVR up to snuff and then replacing millions of Tivos with their own DVR by then. Not likely. Come 2007/2008 these DTivos will still be running. That's not some hope. That's just plain fact if DTV wants to remain in business.


Your personal needs and desires aren't what drives DirecTV's business model. To assure everyone that they will do the right thing by you is to assure us that you do indeed have an inside track. Where do you get off giving a guarantee of future service? Do you personally oversee the business plan of DirecTV? Can you also promise that TiVo is actually going be around in 2008?

Don't take me to the woodshed for asking questions when you're the one who is making promises about the future.

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen; it just doesn't appear likely. It seems to me that the best a DirecTiVo user could hope for is that TiVo offers service direct (via phone connection) to DirecTiVo owners for whatever TiVo's monthly going rate is at the time. If this were the case, those with a bunch of receivers (I've seen people brag about as many as five = $40.75/month at today's rates) would certainly provide a much needed financial boost to TiVo, Inc.

Then again, for all I know, DirecTV may have a new contract to use the TiVo guide data and nothing will change. I suppose they could also offer a software update that will convert the DirecTiVo units to something that is no longer TiVo...


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Bill Wood - no comment?

I am sure you have visited the BB website lately.


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## jimmymiko (Nov 19, 2005)

"If you want a stock box, you should lease. Leasing does not get you free replacements if the box malfunctions, but you can get upgrades to newer units down the road.

At bottom, it really doesn't matter whether you lease or buy...but if you lease, you will get a new dish and installation included."


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

jimmymiko said:


> "If you want a stock box, you should lease. Leasing does not get you free replacements if the box malfunctions, but you can get upgrades to newer units down the road.
> 
> At bottom, it really doesn't matter whether you lease or buy...but if you lease, you will get a new dish and installation included."


Do you have to pay for those "new upgrades" down the road?


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## jimmymiko (Nov 19, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Do you have to pay for those "new upgrades" down the road?


Don't shoot the messenger, I am just quoting....

I have no idea but from what I can tell nobody knows the answer to that.

I just bought an H10-250 and I will be leasing with the $489 upfront cost. Pretty stupid I know but since it is the only entertainment my wife and I frequently enjoy it was worth the money for me. Hopefully I won't be disappointed. As for the lease vs. buy, I am not going to be hacking my tivo and it won't do me any good if I dump DIRECTV. Because of this it is the best choice for me. I also feel I may have a better chance to get an upgrade for little or no cost in the future with leasing.

I just guess it depends on your situation if you want to buy or lease.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

jimmymiko said:


> Don't shoot the messenger, I am just quoting....
> 
> I have no idea but from what I can tell nobody knows the answer to that.
> 
> ...


jimmy,

No not pointed towards you. I do know you were quoting an organization that has been questioned on their reliability. I'm betting their lease model includes charging an upfront cost for every unit, even if they re-lease the same physical unit over and over.

When a company charges $489, in your case for a lease, and also makes you commit to two years of service, best to expect them to keep doing the same.


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## jimmymiko (Nov 19, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> jimmy,
> 
> No not pointed towards you. I do know you were quoting an organization that has been questioned on their reliability. I'm betting their lease model includes charging an upfront cost for every unit, even if they re-lease the same physical unit over and over.
> 
> When a company charges $489, in your case for a lease, and also makes you commit to two years of service, best to expect them to keep doing the same.


Probably but I will try to stay optimistic.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Hey Bill Wood - I find it amazing how you refuse to answer any posts in YOUR thread.

BTW - newegg.com NO LONGER sells (or leases) ANY DirecTV products. Obviously they have sold out their old stock. BB only leases stuff now, care to chime in again?


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

HDImpatient said:


> Hey Bill Wood - I find it amazing how you refuse to answer any posts in YOUR thread.
> 
> BTW - newegg.com NO LONGER sells (or leases) ANY DirecTV products. Obviously they have sold out their old stock. BB only leases stuff now, care to chime in again?


Are you sure about that? Check this link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16882150003 In stock. Limited to 20 to a customer.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Bill Wood said:


> Check this link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16882150003 In stock. Limited to 20 to a customer.


Note the customer reviews by BPZ06 and the one below his indicates that they thought they were buying but it turned out to be a lease. The NewEgg ad mentions nothing about it other than calling the packaging "Retail" and noting that you must be a DirecTV subscriber.

I'm betting that this NewEgg offer is going to turn out to be a bad deal within the next three or four months. I'm seriously concerned about not being allowed an upgrade until the 24 month commitment is over.

I still have high confidence that the HR20 will be a much lower lease entry price and it will be considerably more future proof.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Bill Wood said:


> Are you sure about that? Check this link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16882150003 In stock. Limited to 20 to a customer.


On the date it was posted it was 100% accurate, I am sure of that, and if you have been reading there were many many similar posts.

BTW, you didn't respond to the part about you being wrong about BestBuy. Why is that? Read your posts from back in April from this thread - or beter yet, if you like I'll just post quotes.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

HDImpatient,

While I find your input informative, could you please take your feud with Bill to PM rather than dealing with it in the public threads? I know I run the risk of raising your ire toward me, but that's not what I'm trying to do. It just seems that any time Bill does post, you bring up the "didn't respond" thing.

Thanks.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

JLucPicard said:


> HDImpatient,
> 
> While I find your input informative, could you please take your feud with Bill to PM rather than dealing with it in the public threads? I know I run the risk of raising your ire toward me, but that's not what I'm trying to do. It just seems that any time Bill does post, you bring up the "didn't respond" thing.
> 
> Thanks.


I can assure you Bill has posted a great number of times without any comment by me. That being said - I have no interest in communicating with him any longer anyhow. Thanks for your input though.


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

No need to keep re-hashing what appears to be a "dead subject". The thread needs to get back to "Topic" or it's "Closing" is imminent.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

Newegg had run out of stock and removed from web site. They now have more stock.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=303298


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## RalphArch (Jul 28, 2006)

Lease question for a newbie / service protection plan. I don't really understand what happens if the equipment I am leasing fails.

The service protectiom plan indicates I will get it fixed no charge - understand that part; but if I don't get the plan what is the status of this equipment? I have a two-year commitment to the service but not to the particular equipment. Just send it back? - with hopefully no charge? And order whatever replacement I want at the current prices for leasing? 

Or just drop down in service level with that reduced fees and hopefully no further fees on the failed equipment?

So it seems to me the service plan is worth little except avoiding an initial lease charge fee.

Is my understanding correct?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I don't have a good answer for you Ralph. If you're leasing why do you need the protection plan? If your leased unit goes bad it should be replaced under the lease. Yet as I understand it DTV charges leased folks and owned folks the same amount for the protection plan.

Personally I see some sort of law suite coming out of this yet to be totally defined lease structure DTV implemented. Many folks are getting screwed.


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## RalphArch (Jul 28, 2006)

Sort of got a similar answer for the call I got yesterday from DirectTV to see if all was well with the service. CSR said good question but had to go ask someone else for the answer and I never got a clear response as to what I would be getting for the extra fee (relative to just leasing w/o plan). I knew any necessary service calls would be covered versus the $30 or so fee - but I couldn't imagine its that likely that I would need a visit after the initial setup.

If it was clear what you are getting and the value was clear I might consider signing up - but when the reps aren't even clear on the situation -


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

My understanding of the leased equipment is that only the receiver/DVR is covered for problems. Strictly the unit (IRD) itself. Under the protection plan, everything is covered from the dish all the way down to the remote. If you lease and there is a problem with the dish or cabling or multi-switch, it will cost you for a service call and any of those pieces that need repair or, more likely in this case, replacement.

Under the protection plan, a problem with the dish, etc, would be covered at no additional charge - including the service call.

Kind of like getting a service contract at BB or CC on an air conditioner, for instance. If nothing goes wrong then it might seem like a waste of money. If there are problems, however, it could save a lot of money in the long run.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

JLucPicard said:


> My understanding of the leased equipment is that only the receiver/DVR is covered for problems. Strictly the unit (IRD) itself. Under the protection plan, everything is covered from the dish all the way down to the remote. If you lease and there is a problem with the dish or cabling or multi-switch, it will cost you for a service call and any of those pieces that need repair or, more likely in this case, replacement.
> 
> Under the protection plan, a problem with the dish, etc, would be covered at no additional charge - including the service call.
> 
> Kind of like getting a service contract at BB or CC on an air conditioner, for instance. If nothing goes wrong then it might seem like a waste of money. If there are problems, however, it could save a lot of money in the long run.


But if you're leasing and have problems with a receiver, why would you have to pay for a service call until DTV determines the problem is with your dish and or multi-switch? Plus, if I'm a new customer since March 1st, then my dish, multi-switch and receivers are all leased. Why should I have to pay any type of protection plan in that instance? Bottom line here is that DTV didn't do their homework and hasn't educated their CSRs at all as far a leasing goes. Seems they want all of the benefits of a lease program, but none of the costs.

"Welcome to our lease program where you pay up front for the equipment you don't own and sign a 2 year agreement to stay with us. Oh, but if you don't want us to charge you to repair the equipment you're using but we own, you may want to consider paying us an additional $5.99/mo." Strange.


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## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> "Welcome to our lease program where you pay up front for the equipment you don't own and sign a 2 year agreement to stay with us. Oh, but if you don't want us to charge you to repair the equipment you're using but we own, you may want to consider paying us an additional $5.99/mo." Strange.


Well put!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I suspect that for lease subscribers it covers the non-hardware related portions: free or limited cost on-site visits, free shipping and priority support access. The fact that lease subscribers pay the same amount and get "less" coverage is somebody's idea of marketing genius. Of course we're assuming that the protection plan still offers an extended warranty on purchased equipment.


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

Yes it does, and don't forget that you own the dish, wiring and any multiswitches needed to distribute the sat signal. That's a lot of expensive equipment that may have to be replaced sooner or later.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Newshawk said:


> Yes it does, and don't forget that you own the dish, wiring and any multiswitches needed to distribute the sat signal. That's a lot of expensive equipment that may have to be replaced sooner or later.


Do you own the dish and switches if you're a new subscriber since March 1st?


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Do you own the dish and switches if you're a new subscriber since March 1st?


Yes. That is one rational for hitting you with the $150-$300 if you leave before the commitment is up. Any problems with that stuff and you have to negotate with DTV for a low cost fix, or pay what they ask -- or more likely, just fix it yourself.

The boxes are the only items leased. All the rest is still "yours." Just like if you upgrade to MPEG4, they don't want your (old) dish back. If you ask them to take it they will, but that is just the installer taking out the trash for you and not part of the lease program.


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## tomcat11 (Aug 5, 2006)

I purchased an H20 receiver from an on-line retailer in July. They advertised "own your own equipment" No lease agreement. Unfortunately I was unaware of this and other message boards at the time therfore unaware of the change to the lease only deal that D*was converting to. I activated it a couple of weeks ago with no problem. Now I have to wonder if my status is owned or leased?

My Question is having not asked to be owner activated can D* tell from my serial number or access card mumber if this is the old equipment with "no balance due" and therfore automatically set me up as owner activated?


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

tomcat11 said:


> I purchased an H20 receiver from an on-line retailer in July. They advertised "own your own equipment" No lease agreement. Unfortunately I was unaware of this and other message boards at the time therfore unaware of the change to the lease only deal that D*was converting to. I activated it a couple of weeks ago with no problem. Now I have to wonder if my status is owned or leased?
> 
> My Question is having not asked to be owner activated can D* tell from my serial number or access card mumber if this is the old equipment with "no balance due" and therfore automatically set me up as owner activated?


No, by default they will set you up as leased. You may want to call DirecTV now.


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