# Cheaters win again



## wilssm

The cheating Bill Bilicheck and the patriots look like they are gonna win again It goes to show that if you have enough money you can get away with anything. While I'm at it does anyone else think that phill simms and his butt buddy jim nance (do not deserve to get their names capalized.) are two of the most one sided brown nosing announcers in pro sports. The way phill sims talkes about Tom Brady you would think he is in love with him. I guess he just dreams his son could be a 10th as good as Brady.
Wilssm


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## John W

Hoping to knock off those *******s and the Cowboys in consecutive games January 20th and February 3rd.


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## ke3ju

wilssm said:


> The cheating Bill Bilicheck and the patriots look like they are gonna win again It goes to show that if you have enough money you can get away with anything. While I'm at it does anyone else think that phill simms and his butt buddy jim nance (do not deserve to get their names capalized.) are two of the most one sided brown nosing announcers in pro sports. The way phill sims talkes about Tom Brady you would think he is in love with him. I guess he just dreams his son could be a 10th as good as Brady.
> Wilssm


I didn't see any cheating going on...all I saw was Pittsburgh getting their a**es kicked. Looked like a pretty clean game to me...

Best Regards,
Ed


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## HDTivo4Prez

This game reminded me of 2005 season when the Steelers went to Indianapolis to play the Colts and got their asses handed to them on the scoreboard. For those that actually saw the game it was much closer then the final score. We all know what happen the next time the Steelers met the Colts in the playoffs....along the road to their SuperBowl XL win in Detroit. 

Although, the Patroits won on the scoreboard by 21 points. Those of you that saw the game can see that Patroits scored on two big trick plays. The Steelers actually move the ball up and down the field on the Patriots the entire game. A couple of potential scoring drives ended on 4th downs on the 1-yard line and about the 20-yard line. Therefore, take away the 2 big TD plays and it was a much closer game than the final score indicates.

I hope the Steelers meet the Patriots in the playoffs again. I like the chances of pulling off the victory. I guaratee they won't give up 2 big TDs again and Troy Polamalo in the lineup.


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## Steve Mehs

wilssm said:


> The cheating Bill Bilicheck and the patriots look like they are gonna win again It goes to show that if you have enough money you can get away with anything. While I'm at it does anyone else think that phill simms and his butt buddy jim nance (do not deserve to get their names capalized.) are two of the most one sided brown nosing announcers in pro sports. The way phill sims talkes about Tom Brady you would think he is in love with him. I guess he just dreams his son could be a 10th as good as Brady.
> Wilssm


Priceless! Your favorite team loses to the best team in the league by a considerable margin and you call it cheating. :lol:

No matter what you think, the fact is, THE 2007-2008 NE PATRIOTS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY!!! Other then a few plays early on the Steelers sucked throughout most of the game. On the way to 16-0. The Steelers couldn't even beat the Jets (who's only other wins came against the winless Fish), did you honestly think thy had a shot at the best team in history? I was a bit disappointed in the game. I would have liked it if the Pats had 21 more points or so just to really hammer it in to shut up that loud mouth prick who guaranteed a win. The frustration by Steelers players was pretty obvious, they were a classless act this evening and deserve to lose!


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## jimbo09

HDTivo4Prez said:


> This game reminded me of 2005 season when the Steelers went to Indianapolis to play the Colts and got their asses handed to them on the scoreboard. For those that actually saw the game it was much closer then the final score. We all know what happen the next time the Steelers met the Colts in the playoffs....along the road to their SuperBowl XL win in Detroit.
> 
> Although, the Patroits won on the scoreboard by 21 points. Those of you that saw the game can see that Patroits scored on two big trick plays. The Steelers actually move the ball up and down the field on the Patriots the entire game. A couple of potential scoring drives ended on 4th downs on the 1-yard line and about the 20-yard line. Therefore, take away the 2 big TD plays and it was a much closer game than the final score indicates.
> 
> I hope the Steelers meet the Patriots in the playoffs again. I like the chances of pulling off the victory. I guaratee they won't give up 2 big TDs again and Troy Polamalo in the lineup.


I actually saw the game, and I don't know what you mean by "take away those plays". Maybe the Pats score another way. I guess you take away enough plays and the Steelers win that game:lol: , or something crazy could have happened like, the Steelers could have made their own plays. Mr. Guarantee doesn't get burned all day, and I guess it might have been closer, but he did, and it wasn't very close at all...the scoreboard told the story. Keith Olbermann again called the highlights on this one ...showed the little jawjacking that Brady did with Anthony Smith...showed his little push on Tom and said, "that was the biggest hit Smith had all day."


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## 2Guysfootball

The Steelers lost. They got beat by what had (going into this season) been there offense go to play the Trick play 
There was No cheating!
A Idiot back up player for the Steelers said a stupid comment to get his name mention and went out and couldn't have looked worse in a game had he had one of his legs removed before the game.

Sims and Nace always kiss the ass of whoever is winning( it just happens the patriots are winning alot)


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## machavez00

Nick B. and friends have the champagne chilling for when the Dolphins get their only win of the season against the Pats


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## braven

ke3ju said:


> I didn't see any cheating going on...all I saw was Pittsburgh getting their a**es kicked. Looked like a pretty clean game to me...
> 
> Best Regards,
> Ed


You saw the same game I saw. I'm no Pat's fan, but I do enjoy a good Steeler beat down.


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## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> No matter what you think, the fact is, THE 2007-2008 NE PATRIOTS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY!!!


That's a stupid statement to make at this point in time. For one thing, simply being 13-0 doesn't make them the "best team in NFL history." Let's see them go 16-0 then undefeated through the Super Bowl, inclusive. Then maybe you're emotional statement might hold some water.


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## Steve Mehs

Lord Vader said:


> That's a stupid statement to make at this point in time. For one thing, simply being 13-0 doesn't make them the "best team in NFL history." Let's see them go 16-0 then undefeated through the Super Bowl, inclusive. Then maybe you're emotional statement might hold some water.


Stupid? Yeah right! Pats hater I guess? It's not just the record. It's the pure dominance the talent of the New England Patriots have displayed though out most of the season, and for those few close games, it's showing that they can play 60 minutes of football and get the job done. I don't know what you're smoking if you think they won't go 16-0, Dolphins, Jets and Giants, don't have a prayer.

The only water you'll need to hold is the tears from all the people jealous of the Patriots success and wish their team could be half as good as them

On the night of February 3rd, I'll bring this back up and rub it in as I repeat, THE 2007-2008 NE PATRIOTS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY!!!


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## braven

Steve Mehs said:


> Stupid? Yeah right! Pats hater I guess? It's not just the record. It's the pure dominance the talent of the New England Patriots have displayed though out most of the season, and for those few close games, it's showing that they can play 60 minutes of football and get the job done. I don't know what you're smoking if you think they won't go 16-0, Dolphins, Jets and Giants, don't have a prayer.
> 
> The only water you'll need to hold is the tears from all the people jealous of the Patriots success and wish their team could be half as good as them
> 
> On the night of February 3rd, *I'll bring this back up and rub it in* as I repeat, THE 2007-2008 NE PATRIOTS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY!!!


What, you rub it in? Naaaaah.


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## Steve Mehs

braven said:


> What, you rub it in? Naaaaah.


Got a problem with me, boy?


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## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> Stupid? Yeah right! Pats hater I guess?


Nope. You're wrong again. In fact, I'm a big AFC fan.

There's a reason why assumption begins with the letters "ass." 

Your original stupid statement remains just that--stupid.


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## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> Got a problem with me, boy?


Your posts indicate you are the one who's a boy--I'm guessing 14--so please, Mr. Pot, do be careful what you call Mr. Kettle.


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## Msguy

I am not a New England Patriots Fan. But I do like the way they play football and I love the way they are coached. Bill Belichick has them ready to play football every single week. They are clearly the best football team I have ever seen play up untill this point because I was not born yet in 1972 when Miami went Undefeated. My Bears in the 1985 Regular Season and 1986 Super Bowl Year were the best team I have ever seen take the field. And During those years they only started out at 12-0 before they lost that first game. So I can Truthfully say that Right now the best team with the best start i have ever seen is the 2007 New England Patriots. And I am a Bears Fan and I love the Bears But New England really has something very special going this year and I wish them best of luck the rest of the way this year and I hope they can pull it off.


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## Steve Mehs

> Your original stupid statement remains just that--stupid.


No it's not.



> Your posts indicate you are the one who's a boy--I'm guessing 14--so please, Mr. Pot, do be careful what you call Mr. Kettle.


By stating the obvious that makes me 14? Okay...

Feb 3rd, the NE patriots will get another Super Bowl ring. Ooooh I made a prediction, I must be 14 years old. You guys crack me up.


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## Msguy

I am glad that all of these players making predictions of getting wins are all not coming true. It makes them look like an Ass. Just like that Pittsburgh player made.


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## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> No it's not.


Sorry, it is, because the season's not yet over, and the postseason is even farther away. Your statement is as stupid as the Steelers player who "guaranteed" a win by his team.


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## Msguy

New England sure looks good. I don't see them losing to the Giants or the Jets or Miami. They will go 16-0


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## Steve Mehs

Lord Vader said:


> Sorry, it is, because the season's not yet over, and the postseason is even farther away. Your statement is as stupid as the Steelers player who "guaranteed" a win by his team.


Since I'm not an NFL player, and not really a Patriots fan, making predictions and guaranteeing victory means nothing coming from me. But none the less, going 19-0 in the regular season and post season for the Patriots is more realistic then having a team who lost to the Jets beat the said undefeated team. It's called confidence.

So do you have an issue with weathermen? I mean weathermen pretty much guarantee that it will rain/snow/whatever, and a lot of time that doesn't happen. Since todays not over and tomorrow is even father away a statement by a weatherman is as stupid as...well you know the rest.


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## John W

Steve Mehs said:


> THE 2007-2008 NE PATRIOTS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY!!!


Hows that running game doing? Best? My ass.


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## Steve Mehs

So. And their special teams isn't that great (not bad though) either but, but passing, receiving and defensive, you can't beat the Patriots.


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## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> So do you have an issue with weathermen? I mean weathermen pretty much guarantee that it will rain/snow/whatever, and a lot of time that doesn't happen. Since todays not over and tomorrow is even father away a statement by a weatherman is as stupid as...well you know the rest.


An illogical analogy.


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## Stewart Vernon

I'm a man!

I'm 40!

Ok, I'm not 40... but I couldn't resist the reference with the age-guessing going on


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## Stuart Sweet

No problem with a little friendly ribbing, but let's stop short of insulting each other, ok?


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## machavez00

Msguy said:


> New England sure looks good. I don't see them losing to the Giants or the Jets or Miami. They will go 16-0


It's Kismet that they lose to Miami. Nick and the boys have their rooms reserves for the big game


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## brownram

Although i am not a pats fan obviously, i cant help but be impressed with what they do on the field. And if they do run the table and win the super bowl. I would say that they would have to be mentioned as one of the greatest teams ever. BUT ITS NOT OVER YET. When my colts get healthy they will be able to hang with the pats. cant wait for the rematch. On a side note class act pulling most of the starters after the start of the 3rd quarter last night if it had been the pats Tom B. would have still been in there trying to run up the score


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## dirchm0628

wilssm said:


> The cheating Bill Bilicheck and the patriots look like they are gonna win again It goes to show that if you have enough money you can get away with anything. While I'm at it does anyone else think that phill simms and his butt buddy jim nance (do not deserve to get their names capalized.) are two of the most one sided brown nosing announcers in pro sports. The way phill sims talkes about Tom Brady you would think he is in love with him. I guess he just dreams his son could be a 10th as good as Brady.
> Wilssm


The only thing more obnoxious than the Pittsbugh Steelers are their fans.

They've won one superbowl in the last thirty years and their right back in the "glory years". The only reason the Steelers won that year is because they didn't face NE in the playoffs.


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## Stuart Sweet

machavez00 said:


> It's Kismet that they lose to Miami. Nick and the boys have their rooms reserves for the big game


I sure hope they don't lose to Miami. They're my least favorite team of all time. If they'd had John Elway they would be my least favorite group of anything anywhere. I do not know why I have such venom for that man.


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## Carl Spock

I don't care if you like them or not, the Patriots are damn impressive this season.

If the Packers are fortunate enough to make it to the Superbowl and they face the Patriots, I think our best bet is faith in Favre and the power of prayer.


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## Stuart Sweet

I sincerely hope for a Pats v. Packers Superbowl... aka the moderator smackdown (Shadow vs. Tibber)


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## Steve Mehs

Lord Vader said:


> An illogical analogy.


Only because you know I'm right. That's okay you don't have to admit it, I know I am.

Again I'll be back on 2/3/08 when the Patriots are 19-0.


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## Lord Vader

Stuart Sweet said:


> No problem with a little friendly ribbing, but let's stop short of insulting each other, ok?


Just what do you think a Dark Lord of the Sith is for, huh? !Devil_lol


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## djlong

It shows what kind of observer is making the comments when they say that the only reason New England wins is because of "cheating" as opposed to having Randy Moss blow through two defenders and be so open for Tom Brady that he looks more like a center-fielder than a football player.

It's being ignorant to the fact tha tyou still have to *execute* even if you know exactly what's coming. It's in having enough talent that you CAN execute your own plans.

If anything, there's a completely different reason I would hate New England if I were not a Pats fan. There's one aspect that would frustrate me MORE than 'cheating' would because there's no rule against it - no penalty to be assessed. What is this? It's the fact that players are willing to take HUGE pay cuts in order to play for the Patriots. They want a ring and see New England as the place to get it. Randy Moss signed for ONE THIRD his previous salary - leaving six million dollars a year on the table! THAT give New England the salary cap room to maneuver for the trades they want to make - look at Wes Walker!

I remember the 70s and 80s when the shoe was on the other foot and you couldn't pay people enough to come to Boston to play for the Red Sox or the Patriots. Boston had a reputation as a racist city and a place you just didn't want to be.

The tide has most certainly turned.


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## machavez00

Stuart Sweet said:


> I sure hope they don't lose to Miami. They're my least favorite team of all time. If they'd had John Elway they would be my least favorite group of anything anywhere. I do not know why I have such venom for that man.


"I don't want to play where it's cold and it snows"
John Elway was alleged to say when he refused to sign with the Baltimore Colts


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## Stewart Vernon

Personally I think what was most offensive about the cheating (and please it was cheating since it was knowing violation of a rule and they were penalized for doing so)... was really that their talent this year is so far beyond needing to cheat in that way.

That said, I find it most interesting that the "spygate" cheating gets so much more press than Harrison's suspension for drug violation. "Spygate" may or may not have ever affected a game, but taking illegal drugs is both cheating and illegal... so that one offends me more.

And before anyone thinks I am a Patriots hater... I hated finding out that my Carolina Panthers who almost beat the Pats a few years back in the Superbowl was made up of a team that included many drug users... also think less of Sean Merriman since his drug violation last year... and the list goes on and on across the league.

That said, I still don't root for New England to lose. I was rooting for Indy to win when they played... not rooting against the Pats, just rooting for the Colts. I'll root for the Packers if they play the Pats in the Superbowl... but if it is the Cowboys vs the Pats, I'll most likely root for the Pats.


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## OneOfOne

wilssm said:


> The cheating Bill Bilicheck and the patriots look like they are gonna win again It goes to show that if you have enough money you can get away with anything. While I'm at it does anyone else think that phill simms and his butt buddy jim nance (do not deserve to get their names capalized.) are two of the most one sided brown nosing announcers in pro sports. The way phill sims talkes about Tom Brady you would think he is in love with him. I guess he just dreams his son could be a 10th as good as Brady.
> Wilssm


ok moron get over it. the patriots own your team. yes they beat them again. yes youre a worthless crying steeler fan. as if there is any other kind. your team isnt that good so be happy your division sucks. you wont be in the playoffs very long this season. and tell your toast safety I guarantee it.


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## OneOfOne

machavez00 said:


> "I don't want to play where it's cold and it snows"
> John Elway was alleged to say when he refused to sign with the Baltimore Colts


elway didnt want to play for the colts because of the owner bob irsay. the weather had nothing to do with it.


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## OneOfOne

HDMe said:


> Personally I think what was most offensive about the cheating (and please it was cheating since it was knowing violation of a rule and they were penalized for doing so)... was really that their talent this year is so far beyond needing to cheat in that way.
> 
> That said, I find it most interesting that the "spygate" cheating gets so much more press than Harrison's suspension for drug violation. "Spygate" may or may not have ever affected a game, but taking illegal drugs is both cheating and illegal... so that one offends me more.
> 
> And before anyone thinks I am a Patriots hater... I hated finding out that my Carolina Panthers who almost beat the Pats a few years back in the Superbowl was made up of a team that included many drug users... also think less of Sean Merriman since his drug violation last year... and the list goes on and on across the league.
> 
> That said, I still don't root for New England to lose. I was rooting for Indy to win when they played... not rooting against the Pats, just rooting for the Colts. I'll root for the Packers if they play the Pats in the Superbowl... but if it is the Cowboys vs the Pats, I'll most likely root for the Pats.


are you aware of harrisons injury history recently and the lack of time left in his career? he didnt take hgh to cheat. he took it to get back to playing faster than normal. not legal im sure but a great display of desire if you ask me.

anyone who knows anything about the history of the nfl knows this camera matter is a joke. every team tries to get the upper hand with film and video and plenty of coaches have admitted it. with all the cameras around for the playoffs and from nfl films, why is there no evidence of this supposed cheating? its because there is no cheating. the only people who bring it up are the types of conspiracy loons who think things like the government set up 9/11. the internet give voice to these people. its a free country but let 'spygate' go.


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## OneOfOne

djlong said:


> It shows what kind of observer is making the comments when they say that the only reason New England wins is because of "cheating" as opposed to having Randy Moss blow through two defenders and be so open for Tom Brady that he looks more like a center-fielder than a football player.
> 
> It's being ignorant to the fact tha tyou still have to *execute* even if you know exactly what's coming. It's in having enough talent that you CAN execute your own plans.
> 
> If anything, there's a completely different reason I would hate New England if I were not a Pats fan. There's one aspect that would frustrate me MORE than 'cheating' would because there's no rule against it - no penalty to be assessed. What is this? It's the fact that players are willing to take HUGE pay cuts in order to play for the Patriots. They want a ring and see New England as the place to get it. Randy Moss signed for ONE THIRD his previous salary - leaving six million dollars a year on the table! THAT give New England the salary cap room to maneuver for the trades they want to make - look at Wes Walker!
> 
> I remember the 70s and 80s when the shoe was on the other foot and you couldn't pay people enough to come to Boston to play for the Red Sox or the Patriots. Boston had a reputation as a racist city and a place you just didn't want to be.
> 
> The tide has most certainly turned.


boston is still a racist city. moss is going to get his cash next year you can believe that. I hope its from the patriots. I think players want to play for the patriots because they want to win. for themselves. but I dont care.


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## purtman

Steve Mehs said:


> Priceless! Your favorite team loses to the best team in the league by a considerable margin and you call it cheating. :lol:
> 
> No matter what you think, the fact is, THE 2007-2008 NE PATRIOTS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY!!! Other then a few plays early on the Steelers sucked throughout most of the game. On the way to 16-0. The Steelers couldn't even beat the Jets (who's only other wins came against the winless Fish), did you honestly think thy had a shot at the best team in history? I was a bit disappointed in the game. I would have liked it if the Pats had 21 more points or so just to really hammer it in to shut up that loud mouth prick who guaranteed a win. The frustration by Steelers players was pretty obvious, they were a classless act this evening and deserve to lose!


No, I don't think they had a shot against "the best team in history". Many of the Patriots weren't alive when the Steelers were ruling the roost in the mid-to-late 70s.

I'm not a Steelers' fan, but the first comment did not say that the win was by "cheating". Secondly, please learn the difference between "fact" and "opinion".

The only reason the Pats are unbeaten is because of a blown call on Gaffney's TD at the end of the game against the Ravens. He didn't have possession (the ball can not be in the midst of switching from hand to hand to be ruled in possession).


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## Stewart Vernon

OneOfOne said:


> are you aware of harrisons injury history recently and the lack of time left in his career? he didnt take hgh to cheat. he took it to get back to playing faster than normal. not legal im sure but a great display of desire if you ask me.


I agree there are different levels, regarding drug use. There are players that take the enhancers to be better than they would ever be otherwise. There are also players that take drugs to heal faster and get back on the field. Especially in the latter case, and perhaps Harrison's motivation, I blame the teams and the league for creating an atmosphere where players feel the need to do that to themselves to get back on the field.

There's playing hurt, and playing injured even... and there's dedication to craft... but there's also endangering yourself and taking unnecessary risks. I always go back to Lyle Alzaido (I know I butchered spelling his name) and how sad it was seeing him in his last months dying of health problems directly related to having taken steroids in his playing days.


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## Steve Mehs

purtman said:


> No, I don't think they had a shot against "the best team in history". Many of the Patriots weren't alive when the Steelers were ruling the roost in the mid-to-late 70s.
> 
> I'm not a Steelers' fan, but the first comment did not say that the win was by "cheating". Secondly, please learn the difference between "fact" and "opinion".
> 
> The only reason the Pats are unbeaten is because of a blown call on Gaffney's TD at the end of the game against the Ravens. He didn't have possession (the ball can not be in the midst of switching from hand to hand to be ruled in possession).


 You're still around I see

Fact: The 2007-2008 New England Patriots are the best team in NFL history
Fact: When in doubt always blame the officials


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## jodyguercio

1) How would the Pats of this year stack up against the Ravens of 2000? Defense wins championships and the Pats dont have much of one

2) The 1985 Chicago Bears?

Lets answer those two questions before we go crowning anyone anything.


Yea Yea I know my avi is the Texans and yes I am a Texans fan and a proud one at that.7-7 with two to play and still a slim shot at the playoffs, heres hoping


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## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> Correction--*Opinion*: The 2007-2008 New England Patriots are the best team in NFL history


There, I had to make a minor correction to your obviously incorrect post. You're welcome, of course.


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## Steve Mehs

Lord Vader said:


> There, I had to make a minor correction to your obviously incorrect post. You're welcome, of course.


 Whatever dude. Only thing that's incorrect is the notion the Pats will not be the greatest team of all time.



> Defense wins championships and the Pats dont have much of one


The Patriots defense is ranked 4th in the league and they have given up an average of 17 PPG. Care to recant that statement?


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## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> Only thing that's correct is the notion the Pats will not be the greatest team of all time.


_Edited to reflect another correction._

There. Had to correct what I'm sure is another typo.


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## Richard King

Play nice, boys. :lol:


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## Lord Vader

We are. It's the Christmas season, and in the spirit of giving and assistance, we're just assisting someone in need.


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## Steve Mehs

When it comes to sports there is no playing nice. Pride, trash talk, face painting, it's all a part of it. Like I said, I'm not a Patriots fan, they are the division rivals of my Bills, but I know a great team when I see it. Am I jealous of the Patriots and what they have. Hell yeah! But that doesn’t mean I wish them anything but the best. The team has so much talent, and talent that clicks well together and they are so dominate. They deserve to go 19-0.


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## Lord Vader

Great team, yes, but the "best team in NFL history"? No way. Not yet. One cannot be "best" at anything until one has completed the overall job and possesses overall statistics to support the completed job. It is too soon to label them as "best."


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## Stewart Vernon

They can't be the "best in history" until they win the Superbowl, so really any talk before that is premature. In fact, they could still lose 2 games this year, by resting, and then run the table to win in the playoffs and still should be in consideration for "best" in my book... since we've only had one undefeated team in the NFL history, going lossless can't be the only criteria.

Hard to rank best offense and best defense of today vs yesterday teams... because in the totality of things, you have to also realize that a lot of the teams the Pats have beaten this year were just not that good. Last year's Pats might have fared as good with this year's schedule based on how bad their own division (aside from Buffalo) has sank.

The Ravens of Superbowl fame had a great defense, but practically no offense. Personally, I feel like this year's Pats could score enough to outscore those Ravens eventually. Remember those Ravens' offense sometimes turned the ball over too. But we can't know since we can't play the game.


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## jodyguercio

Steve Mehs said:


> Whatever dude. Only thing that's incorrect is the notion the Pats will not be the greatest team of all time.
> 
> The Patriots defense is ranked 4th in the league and they have given up an average of 17 PPG. Care to recant that statement?


No not at all.....I stated an OPINION. I dont think they have a defense...so what if they are ranked fourth, the Steelers were ranked either 1st or 2nd in the league in defense going into that game and they got TORCHED.


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## Steve Mehs

:lol: All of you who are too blind to see make me laugh. It's comical the excuses you all make, keep denying it ladies, 51 more days until I rub it all bad at you.


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## JM Anthony

Seahawks are going to take it all and Hillary will be our next President. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

John


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## Ryan

>>Since I’m...not really a Patriots fan,

Oh, thank you...

I started reading this thread backwards and was really surprised you were in the NE camp, being in Western NY and all. We lived in Rochester for three years - right towards the end of the Bills zenith (I listened to the Frank Reich led playoff comeback on the radio in good ole' Brockport...as the game was a non-sellout-blackout on TV!!!) - and the Bills ever since have been a favorite of mine. I found it hard to believe you'd be a Pats fan.

But acknowledging their superiority in coaching, attitude and talent doesn't always mean you're jumping on their bandwagon...

The Pats certainly have their vulnerabilities, but ever since that AFC championship in Pittsburgh when Tom Brady was knocked out, and the Pats still held on, they have carried themselves like were men amongst boys. I think the attitude alone has won them a couple games.


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## Steve Mehs

I'm a newly found Bills fan after about 10 years of not being one. I started off with the Cowboys as soon as I discovered football back in '89 or '90, then became a Bills fan for a year or two, then moved on to the Titans when they moved from Houston and as of a few weeks ago, I did something I never thought I'd do, root for the Bills..again. I've followed the Bills forever, just not as a fan. I really do like Trent Edwards, the guy has a lot of potential and has talent. While not the entire reason, I've picked my favorite teams on QBs, Aikman, Steve McNair and now Edwards. I could not stand Kelly, Todd Collins was a disappointment, Rob Johnson wore that bandana a little too light, the Magic Midget was good, but there was something about him I didn't like, Drew Bledsoe was a washed up hasbeen (I should say neverwas) and JP Loserman, 1) He sucks 2) He sounds like a 12 year old school girl. Edwards is more collective and better at making decisions and I hope next year he can be a valuable leader for the team, something the Bills have lacked.

Throughout the years I‘ve also supported teams that I thought had what it takes and a deserving, during the Marcus Allan years, I wasn’t a Chiefs fan but I wanted to see them do good. Not a Jets fan either, but I did root for them when they had Testaverde and Curtis ‘My Favorite’ Martin.

But no amount of genius coaching, talent or crack could get me to want to see the Dolphins win a game. While I have switched favorite teams three times in 18 years, I hated the Fins since I was 4, and that's one thing that will never change.


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## purtman

Steve Mehs said:


> You're still around I see
> 
> Fact: The 2007-2008 New England Patriots are the best team in NFL history
> Fact: When in doubt always blame the officials


:lol. yeah, once in a while. There are some real garbage mouths on here that have pushed me away. When people start using the off-color language, it usually means they can't come up with the correct word in English. Have a great holiday. Are you going to the Sabres' outdoor game? I'd love to check that out. I hope NHL Network broadcasts it.


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## jimbo09

jodyguercio said:


> 1) How would the Pats of this year stack up against the Ravens of 2000? Defense wins championships and the Pats dont have much of one
> 
> 2) The 1985 Chicago Bears?
> 
> Lets answer those two questions before we go crowning anyone anything.
> 
> Yea Yea I know my avi is the Texans and yes I am a Texans fan and a proud one at that.7-7 with two to play and still a slim shot at the playoffs, heres hoping


The '85 Bears, with their 46 defense...designed to stop the run and hurry the passer, would probably lose to the Pats about as bad as they lost to Miami that year. It would almost be like they were playing a team from the future


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## djlong

You would also have to adjust the player SIZES if you're comparing eras. The Steelers of the 1970s wouldn't make the practice squad of the Dolphins this year because even the smallest player outweighs them by dozens of pounds and towers over them.

It's like trying to say that the 1927 Yankees would have beaten the Big Red Machine of '75 or the late 90s Yankee teams. Different era, different parks, different training methods and that's BEFORE any talk of steroids. Did Babe Ruth ever SEE a knuckleball?


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## Steve Mehs

purtman said:


> :lol. yeah, once in a while. There are some real garbage mouths on here that have pushed me away. When people start using the off-color language, it usually means they can't come up with the correct word in English. Have a great holiday. Are you going to the Sabres' outdoor game? I'd love to check that out. I hope NHL Network broadcasts it.


No, I can come up with the correct English word, but what difference is a word if the meaning is the same. No, unfortunately I won't be at the Winter Classic, but I'll be at the Arena watching the game on the Jumbotron. The game will be on NBC so everyone can watch, I can't wait. Merry Christmas to you too as well.


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## purtman

Steve Mehs said:


> No, I can come up with the correct English word, but what difference is a word if the meaning is the same. No, unfortunately I won't be at the Winter Classic, but I'll be at the Arena watching the game on the Jumbotron. The game will be on NBC so everyone can watch, I can't wait. Merry Christmas to you too as well.


The difference Steve is that it's very offensive to many. I'm amazed at how many people will be careful about what they say in front of their kids but will say it when they're not around. It's call "hypocrisy".

Too bad you can't catch the game in person, but having the crowd at the arena is still pretty cool.


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## purtman

djlong said:


> You would also have to adjust the player SIZES if you're comparing eras. The Steelers of the 1970s wouldn't make the practice squad of the Dolphins this year because even the smallest player outweighs them by dozens of pounds and towers over them.
> 
> It's like trying to say that the 1927 Yankees would have beaten the Big Red Machine of '75 or the late 90s Yankee teams. Different era, different parks, different training methods and that's BEFORE any talk of steroids. Did Babe Ruth ever SEE a knuckleball?


I'm not sure when the knuckleball came around, but he did have to ride in trains to get everywhere. Talk about not getting any sleep. If he played today, he'd still be great.

To say that the Steelers of the 1970s wouldn't make the practice squad of this year's Dolphins' team is one of the funniest lines of all time. Joey Porter wouldn't start over anybody on the Steelers' LB crew of Andy Russell, Jack Ham, and Jack Lambert. Bradshaw would start at QB and Swann and Stallworth would be the starting wide receivers. Who on the Dolphins' defensive line would start over LC Greenwood, Furness, Greene, and Holmes? NOBODY. Who would have started in the defensive backfield over Mel Blount or Donnie Shell? NOBODY.

It's probably the other way around. A few of today's Dolphins could have made the old Steelers' teams, but not many.


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## Steve Mehs

Pittsburgh lost against Jacksonville seconds ago, how dare they, the Jags cheated!!!! :lol:

NE Pats 14-0


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## Stuart Sweet

Well said and particularly appropriate given the Mitchell Report to say that there is a big difference between teams of yore and teams today.


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## jodyguercio

djlong said:


> You would also have to adjust the player SIZES if you're comparing eras. The Steelers of the 1970s wouldn't make the practice squad of the Dolphins this year because even the smallest player outweighs them by dozens of pounds and towers over them.
> 
> It's like trying to say that the 1927 Yankees would have beaten the Big Red Machine of '75 or the late 90s Yankee teams. Different era, different parks, different training methods and that's BEFORE any talk of steroids. Did Babe Ruth ever SEE a knuckleball?


And that proves the point that calling ANY team in ANY sport the greatest team ever......it cant be done because teams from back in the day or teams yet to come could be better. The greatest team this year label can be justified (barely)considering the almighty one didnt throw ONE thats right ONE touchdown pass yesterady against the JETS.


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## Stuart Sweet

Well said, jodyguercio. 

Of course a win is a win, and in the end one team won. To reduce the team to an abstraction though, to say they are the best ever... makes little sense. Even given that I am a Patriots fan and enjoying the season, comparing them to any other team in the past would be impossible.


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## jodyguercio

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well said, jodyguercio.
> 
> Of course a win is a win, and in the end one team won. To reduce the team to an abstraction though, to say they are the best ever... makes little sense. Even given that I am a Patriots fan and enjoying the season, comparing them to any other team in the past would be impossible.


Or a team that might come for that matter.


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## Steve Mehs

15 down, 4 more to go.


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## Lord Vader

For the Patriots to beat the Dolphins by such a relatively small margin just shows that they're not as good as people think. Plus, a powder puff schedule doesn't hurt them, either.


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## Steve Mehs

Geeze you people complain about the Pats running up the score in the first half of the season and now the score isn't high enough?  What an F'ing joke! Powder puff schedule? Dallas, Indy, Pittsburgh all top notch teams this season. Keep it up ladies, keep it up, you make me laugh at how asinine this all is.


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## Stewart Vernon

Lord Vader said:


> For the Patriots to beat the Dolphins by such a relatively small margin just shows that they're not as good as people think.


I'm neither a Pats supporter nor a hater... but, this logic always confuses me.

When they were "running up the score" on people, the media and some other teams were complaining about that. So now if they only win 28-7 then that somehow indicates they must not be that good after all?

This bothers me most with college football, where teams are voted into "championships" based on margin of victory sometimes, yet are also chided for running up the score. But it still happens in the pros, and I'm amazed how one week it is bad to run up the score and the next week it is bad if you don't.


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## Lord Vader

HDMe said:


> I'm neither a Pats supporter nor a hater... but, this logic always confuses me.


I know. I posted it just to tick Steve off, and it looks like I've succeeded. Ahhh...I love it!


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## Stewart Vernon

Lord Vader said:


> I know. I posted it just to tick Steve off, and it looks like I've succeeded. Ahhh...I love it!


In that case... well played, well played


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## Steve Mehs

Lord Vader said:


> I know. I posted it just to tick Steve off, and it looks like I've succeeded. Ahhh...I love it!


Please, I have better things to be pissed off about that what you metal midgets post on an internet message board. Like I said I find this all comical.


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## Lord Vader

HDMe said:


> *In that case... well played, well played *


Of course. Quicker, more seductive the Dark Side is.


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## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> Please, I have better things to be pissed off about that what you metal midgets post on an internet message board. Like I said I find this all comical.


About as comical as your statement that New England is the best team of all time and forever more until the end of time...blah, blah, blah.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Steve Mehs said:


> Please, I have better things to be pissed off about that what you metal midgets post on an internet message board. Like I said I find this all comical.


Why are you mad at metal midgets? And just what is a metal midget?


----------



## Lord Vader

Hey! You leave his sister out of this!


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Don't worry the NY GIANTS will beat them on sat.


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## Stewart Vernon

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Don't worry the NY GIANTS will beat them on sat.


As I said, I'm neither a hater nor a supporter of the Pats... but I have to believe they could leave half the team in New England and still beat the Giants. Especially when you consider the Giants clinched playoffs today and can't improve their seeding next week... so they are best served by sitting most of their players that have injuries.


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## Steve Mehs

HDMe said:


> Why are you mad at metal midgets? And just what is a metal midget?


What's his face over there doesn't know the difference between your and you're, so I'm allowed a typo now and then.



> About as comical as your statement that New England is the best team of all time and forever more until the end of time...blah, blah, blah.


Yep, blah, blah, blah, that's all I get out of you, between the nonsense postings that have nothing to do with anything just to divert the subject.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Steve Mehs said:


> What's his face over there doesn't know the difference between your and you're, so I'm allowed a typo now and then.


Whew!

For a second there I was thinking maybe the metal midgets were something from Puppetmaster!


----------



## Lord Vader

Just to whom is he referring when he brings up the "your" and "you're" reference?

And the Giants will beat the Pats? I highly doubt it. I'm sure Shula's hoping for it, though.


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## tsmacro

HDMe said:


> And just what is a metal midget?


Isn't that the little guy that used to perform w/ Kid Rock? 

Oh and for an on topic response, if Peyton couldn't beat the Pats, I doubt his little bros chances are very good. I guess it mostly depends on which team rests which players for how long. Of course this doesn't mean I won't be rooting for the Giants next week and loving it if they do pull off the upset!


----------



## Lord Vader

Considering just how fixed the NFL is, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Giants beat the Pats.


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## brownram

Colts Beat Pats 31 To 24 In Afc Championship Game Pats End The Season 17-1


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## DawgLink

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Don't worry the NY GIANTS will beat them on sat.












Not a chance the Giants win this weekend


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## djlong

"How fixed the NFL is"????


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## Lord Vader

The NFL is more fixed than Bob Barker's animals.


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## purtman

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Don't worry the NY GIANTS will beat them on sat.


+++++1

Could you imagine Brady trying to outrun LT? How about the killshots Leonard Marshall or Carl "Killer" Banks would have put on them? Ask Andre Reed about how he felt after playing the Giants? He said he "never hurt so much" after playing the Giants in the 1991 Super Bowl. I have no doubt that the '86 Giants would have kicked the snot out of the Pats!


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## purtman

Steve Mehs said:


> What's his face over there doesn't know the difference between your and you're, so I'm allowed a typo now and then.
> 
> Yep, blah, blah, blah, that's all I get out of you, between the nonsense postings that have nothing to do with anything just to divert the subject.


"now and then"? You may want to review your previous posts. :lol


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## Steve Mehs

Go a head, I don't care, because I don't give a flying F. Ohhh my language!


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## twistedT

Spy Gate?!?!?!.......... A big deal made of nothing, the tapes were for the next games, not the one being played. A shady practice at best..... but as you can tell, it doesn't make any difference!! :biggrin: As for the defense, when you have a big lead, no need to waste energy.  As for being the best..... One pass from Brady to Moss Saturday could set Three NFL ALL TIME SCOREING RECORDS.... Need I say more?


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## Lord Vader

Oh, it's more serious than that, twisted. While I don't believe it's the end of the world, I do believe that Coach Belch would sell his mother to win. The guy's a mean, crooked scumbag.


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## twistedT

Bill is an extremely passionate coach, but I don't think he'd sell his mommy for a win!! :lol: Saturdays game is going to feel like a superbowl game for me and millions of Pats fans!! I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed..... just following the Path to Perfection, I hope.


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## Stewart Vernon

twistedT said:


> One pass from Brady to Moss Saturday could set Three NFL ALL TIME SCOREING RECORDS.... Need I say more?


That's not actually correct.

They need one TD to break the all-time TD record for a season (they are tied right now).

Brady needs TWO TD passes to break the TD record, one will tie him with Peyton Manning.

Moss needs TWO TD catches to break the TD record, one will tie him with Jerry Rice.

I will be surprised if they don't get 1 TD pass to break that record. I will also be surprised if Brady doesn't pass Manning... but I wouldn't be surprised if Moss doesn't get his. Not for lack of trying, but because it is hard to get multiple TD catches in the same game and while New England will likely try to make it happen, the defense could always double-cover Moss and essentially prevent that.

I'll be surprised if the Giants win... really really surprised.. but not surprised if some of the records don't fall.


----------



## twistedT

HDMe said:


> That's not actually correct.
> 
> They need one TD to break the all-time TD record for a season (they are tied right now).
> 
> Brady needs TWO TD passes to break the TD record, one will tie him with Peyton Manning.
> 
> Moss needs TWO TD catches to break the TD record, one will tie him with Jerry Rice.
> 
> I will be surprised if they don't get 1 TD pass to break that record. I will also be surprised if Brady doesn't pass Manning... but I wouldn't be surprised if Moss doesn't get his. Not for lack of trying, but because it is hard to get multiple TD catches in the same game and while New England will likely try to make it happen, the defense could always double-cover Moss and essentially prevent that.
> 
> I'll be surprised if the Giants win... really really surprised.. but not surprised if some of the records don't fall.


OOOPS  My bad, thats what I get for trying to remember things when I have been drinking! :lol: I meant after the second Moss TD! :biggrin:


----------



## purtman

I grew up in New England. I only knew a very, very small handful of Patriots' fans until they won a Super Bowl. Pats' fans are as fair-weather as Cowdungs' fans and that's pretty bad.


----------



## DCSholtis

Just goes to show that cheating DOES always win......Did you guys see that Rick Neuheisel is the new coach of UCLA?!! :lol: Wow dude drags BOTH Colorado and Washington down the crapper and yet gets another crack at a college job. Errrrrr sorry for the momentary thread hijack guy.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

DCSholtis said:


> Just goes to show that cheating DOES always win......Did you guys see that Rick Neuheisel is the new coach of UCLA?!! :lol: Wow dude drags BOTH Colorado and Washington down the crapper and yet gets another crack at a college job. Errrrrr sorry for the momentary thread hijack guy.


Not to go all racial and political... but when I see retreads get new jobs, especially retreads that have a semi-proven track record of failure... I start to gain more appreciation and understanding of why minorities are questioning hiring practices of college and pro coaches. You have black guys not even getting interviews who may or may not be good candidates, meanwhile re-hiring guys that you actually have a resume that seems to indicate they lose more than they win. Not sure why you wouldn't roll the dice on an unknown minority candidate who seems to understand the game over a white guy who has to some extent shown how he does not understand the game.


----------



## phat78boy

HDMe said:


> Not to go all racial and political... but when I see retreads get new jobs, especially retreads that have a semi-proven track record of failure... I start to gain more appreciation and understanding of why minorities are questioning hiring practices of college and pro coaches. You have black guys not even getting interviews who may or may not be good candidates, meanwhile re-hiring guys that you actually have a resume that seems to indicate they lose more than they win. Not sure why you wouldn't roll the dice on an unknown minority candidate who seems to understand the game over a white guy who has to some extent shown how he does not understand the game.


Exactly. Hiring practices are very sketchy at best.

Its all who you know, not really what you know.


----------



## twistedT

purtman said:


> I grew up in New England. I only knew a very, very small handful of Patriots' fans until they won a Super Bowl. Pats' fans are as fair-weather as Cowdungs' fans and that's pretty bad.


I grew up in New England and I am still here, I've known at least 20 Patriot fans(at minimum, more like 100 +) that have been pasionate fans even when we where losing. We Always stuck with the Pats thru think and thin. Robert Kraft was one of us, he was a fan before he was an owner, and now it shows!!! The Patriots have all of New England behind them... We are the heart and strength of this Country, New England is where it all started. How can you not love America's team??


----------



## phat78boy

twistedT said:


> I grew up in New England and I am still here, I've known at least 20 Patriot fans(at minimum, more like 100 +) that have been pasionate fans even when we where losing. We Always stuck with the Pats thru think and thin. Robert Kraft was one of us, he was a fan before he was an owner, and now it shows!!! The Patriots have all of New England behind them... We are the heart and strength of this Country, New England is where it all started. How can you not love America's team??


Because they got caught cheating. Funny how winning changes peoples morals.


----------



## twistedT

phat78boy said:


> Because they got caught cheating. Funny how winning changes peoples morals.


Ok, they technically didn't even get a chance to cheat. They were going to use the footage to study the Jets to find out what plays they were using in certian situations. If they were sign stealing during the game why take a camera, why not just radio it over? I hope they weren't studying the signs and using them in the next game, but who knows for sure. I would hope that teams change their signs around each game. Its funny how the Jets got caught doing the same thing the game before and noone really cares. Even Eric Mansquealler said it is common pratice for NFL teams to tape the games..... OH WELL...... doesn't matter anyways, not "cheating" any more and still lining them up and knocking them DOWN!!!


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## djlong

phat78boy: How come all the other teams aren't considered cheaters? After all, they all get caught for holding, off-sides, pass-interference, etc, etc - the referee assesses penalty and they go on playing. Players get reviewed by the league for things the refs don't see all the time and are fined by the league.

Sounds like whining from people who can't deal with a dominant team in the 'age of parity'.


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## mike558

purtman said:


> I grew up in New England. I only knew a very, very small handful of Patriots' fans until they won a Super Bowl. Pats' fans are as fair-weather as Cowdungs' fans and that's pretty bad.


You should have met a few people when you grew up in New England... 
I won't argue that the Pats have been or ever will be more popular then the Red Sox, but to say New Englanders weren't Pats fans prior to 2001 is asinine.

I've grown up a Pats fan. I've sat through the pain of the Victor Kiam era. I was loyal during the Rod Rust / Dick Macpherson days. I had a "squish the fish" shirt. I remember watching in pain as the fridge rumbled into the end zone. 
I owned Hannah and Grogan jerseys. 
And all that time I watched, I was never by myself. There were always bars full of Pats fans sitting watching and hoping that one day the Pats would put it together.

Say all you want about your feelings towards the Patriots. You can hate Belicheck. You can cry about spygate. Just don't try to make up crap about Pats fans being bandwagon fans.

The only thing worse than telling me Pats fans are bandwagon fans would be to blame Cleveland fans for Art Modell's moving the old Browns to Baltimore.


----------



## phat78boy

twistedT said:


> Ok, they technically didn't even get a chance to cheat. They were going to use the footage to study the Jets to find out what plays they were using in certian situations. If they were sign stealing during the game why take a camera, why not just radio it over? I hope they weren't studying the signs and using them in the next game, but who knows for sure. I would hope that teams change their signs around each game. Its funny how the Jets got caught doing the same thing the game before and noone really cares. Even Eric Mansquealler said it is common pratice for NFL teams to tape the games..... OH WELL...... doesn't matter anyways, not "cheating" any more and still lining them up and knocking them DOWN!!!


Lol. Fan is of course short for fanatic. They were using signs recorded from previous games. They would also use signs from the first half of the game for the second half. While it is common place to record games, the NFL is very strict on camera angles. They even warned them before the start of this season about the camera angles they are allowed to have. To me that makes it even worse.

I am not saying what they did was not a great and historic feat. What I am saying is that I can not jump all over a team knowing that they thoroughly endorse cheating and tried to continue doing it even when warned. The fact they did even when warned tells me it helps a lot more then people let on.

I still say it is a very large coincidence that the fist team to go undeafeated is the fist team to get caught cheating.


----------



## phat78boy

djlong said:


> phat78boy: How come all the other teams aren't considered cheaters? After all, they all get caught for holding, off-sides, pass-interference, etc, etc - the referee assesses penalty and they go on playing. Players get reviewed by the league for things the refs don't see all the time and are fined by the league.
> 
> Sounds like whining from people who can't deal with a dominant team in the 'age of parity'.


What you are speaking of is the built in "fairness" of human officiating. Its well known that not every call gets made and sometimes the home team gets more calls then the visiting team. I still say no one call will loose you the game.

What makes the way they were cheating so bad is they knew what was coming. Any chess players here? If you know what move is coming from your opponent, aren't you 100 times more likely to win?

I believe football is one in the same. Every defense has a whole. The trick is to not only to disguise your defense but to put them in the correct spot to defend the offense. If you give a good quarterback the exact defense that he will be facing, he will be 10 times more likely to win.

He will be able to get rid of the ball much quicker because he no longer has to "look" for the whole, he knows where it is. The defensive line never has chance to get to the quarter back and the DB's, while lined up in the correct positions, have an inherent flaw in every defense.

Not very hard for good quarterback at all.


----------



## djlong

mike558 said:


> I've grown up a Pats fan. I've sat through the pain of the Victor Kiam era. I was loyal during the Rod Rust / Dick Macpherson days. I had a "squish the fish" shirt. I remember watching in pain as the fridge rumbled into the end zone.


I remember Sam "Bam" Cunningham, Jim Plunkett, "Roughing The Passer", Randy Vataha, Daryl Stingley and so many more..

Somewhere in my collection of old casettes, I have the "Squish The Fish" parody song played on WAAF - done to the tune of Pete Townshend's "Face The Face". If I *ever* find it I *have* to make an MP3 of it, complete with the intro of one of the Pats at the rally in Boston saying "....I just wanna say one thing.. We're goin down there and gonna RIP their FACES off!!"


----------



## barryr

As I understand the facts:

-it is against league rules to film or videotape the opponent's defensive signals from a camera on the sidelines
-last season the Patriots were caught doing so at Green Bay and told to stop with no penalty
-during the preseason the NFL office sent a letter to every head coach and GM re-stating the rule and reminding teams that this form of signal-stealing would not be tolerated (of course there are plenty of other ways to steal signals, some of which are just fine)

And yet despite this, the Patriots felt that they were not bound to abide by the rule. I am left with three conclusions:

1. It is amazing, astonishing, staggering that the Patriots were not forced to forfeit the first Jets game. If they hadn't been caught before, if there hadn't been a letter from the league, maybe OK, it's the first time, but given their malicious flaunting of a very specific rule which clearly gives them an in-game advantage, they should have been forced to forfeit the game. So my friends and I (OK, not a major force, but it feels good) consider the Patriots to be 15-1 for this regular season.

2. The punishment given the Patriots is laughable and ludicrous. So they don't have to spend BIG money on a risky high-round draft choice; they can do what they did last off-season and instead spend the big money on proven-NFL-talented free agents. Loss of a draft choice is a laugher. And a big money fine? What coach in the NFL wouldn't give up a YEAR's salary to win the Super Bowl? 

3. Why should we assume that the Patriots, based on the filming violations, adhere to ANY rules intended to balance the competitive playing field?

Why does anyone assume that they're not bugging the visiting locker room at Foxboro?

Why does anyone assume that they're not tapping into the opposing OFFENSIVE play calling radio at Foxboro, or even screwing with the reliability of the opponent's radio equipment?

Why should we believe that in the customary exchange of game tapes, the same tech wizards who collate the defensive signal stealing with called plays are not judiciously excising, at Belichek or whomever's direction, things they don't want the opponent to see on the video tape?

If you start with the belief that rules mean nothing to the Patriots organization, and the belief that the likelihood and magnitude of punishment for this kind of cheating is a wet-noodle-to-the-wrist, then this list can become incredibly long, and the NFL's "investigation" was futile, lame and offensive.

So Pats and your fans, enjoy your fabulous season, and know that many of us who invest time, energy and emotion into the NFL will always respect your team's talent and question its sportsmanship. And even a 19-0 Super Bowl season will not make us believers in a team that so disgustingly disrespects the League.


----------



## SatelliteJim

And what makes you think that your own Chargers or any of the rest of the NFL doesn't do the same thing. Because they haven't been caught? If the Pats objective was to find out things they could use against the Jets or any other team, don't you think they'd be more clandestine in their efforts. And why try and cheat to beat the Jets. They would've beat them anyway. Why not use that method to gain an advantage over say, the Steelers, or the Cowboys, or even the Giants who gave them quite a battle. Too many people riding their high horse over this.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I take both sides of the argument at the same time.

The Patriots were guilty of cheating, and were caught in the act of violating a rule. I tire of people who want to deny that.

The Patriots were punished by the league for their offense, through fines and a draft pick. I similarly tire of people who think they were not punished.

That really should be the end of the discussion. Rule violated, caught, punished. Done deal.

Who knows how many other teams/coaches may or may not be guilty of similar or other rules violations. All I ever ask/expect is that when caught cheating the person/team/coach admits to it and accepts the due punishment for the crime. Then after paying the penalty we all move forward. I see no point in beating the dead horse repeatedly really.


----------



## phat78boy

SatelliteJim said:


> And what makes you think that your own Chargers or any of the rest of the NFL doesn't do the same thing. Because they haven't been caught? If the Pats objective was to find out things they could use against the Jets or any other team, don't you think they'd be more clandestine in their efforts. And why try and cheat to beat the Jets. They would've beat them anyway. Why not use that method to gain an advantage over say, the Steelers, or the Cowboys, or even the Giants who gave them quite a battle. Too many people riding their high horse over this.


The answer is as simple as it is sick sometimes. Coaches like Belichick are so caught up in winning, they don't care how. I'm not saying he is the only one, not by far. The problem is those that are actually really good at it, last a very long time. He wouldn't care if it was the Dolphins.

For those that haven't read the "full investigation", he had tape on everything. He had a library of tapes for every coach he had played against. Not just head coaches, assistants and assistant's assistants. When it was "turned in", I believe they said it went back 5 years. So on top of game film, he had a tape for every coach on the sideline for the whole game. Anyone who thinks this knowledge isn't useful is severly mistaken. He knew every nuiance of every coach during every game for 5 years. His attention to detail is legendary and I would assume this was part of it.

I don't see how Pats fans are not disgusted by this. I understand he is winning, but where does one draw the line? I mean using most Pats fans view on this, they should also behind Mike Vick 100 percent. I mean, he won, so whats the big deal right?


----------



## phat78boy

HDMe said:


> I take both sides of the argument at the same time.
> 
> The Patriots were guilty of cheating, and were caught in the act of violating a rule. I tire of people who want to deny that.
> 
> The Patriots were punished by the league for their offense, through fines and a draft pick. I similarly tire of people who think they were not punished.
> 
> That really should be the end of the discussion. Rule violated, caught, punished. Done deal.
> 
> Who knows how many other teams/coaches may or may not be guilty of similar or other rules violations. All I ever ask/expect is that when caught cheating the person/team/coach admits to it and accepts the due punishment for the crime. Then after paying the penalty we all move forward. I see no point in beating the dead horse repeatedly really.


My issue is two fold. I think if this was say, the Raiders. They would have been thrown under the bus. Regardless, they were punished.

My other issue is they went undefeated the year they get caught. Like knowing Barry Bonds used steriods, I can't consider them/him the best. Even if the numbers are there and support it.


----------



## mike558

phat78boy said:


> My other issue is they went undefeated the year they get caught. Like knowing Barry Bonds used steriods, I can't consider them/him the best. Even if the numbers are there and support it.


I might agree with that if they were caught later in the season. They were caught in week 1. They played the rest of the season under extreme scrutiny. They beat SD, Indy, Pitt, Dal, & NYG after week 1. All of those teams are playoff bound, and all were beaten without the spy cams.

As a Pats fan, should I be disgusted as because of Bellicheck. Simply put, no. I was upset when it happened. It bothered me that the teams image was tarnished, but Bellicheck issued an apology to the fans, Kraft, and the Patriots organization. I am willing to accept the apology and move on. Should something else happen, I don't think I will be as forgiving regardless of his coaching record.


----------



## phat78boy

mike558 said:


> I might agree with that if they were caught later in the season. They were caught in week 1. They played the rest of the season under extreme scrutiny. They beat SD, Indy, Pitt, Dal, & NYG after week 1. All of those teams are playoff bound, and all were beaten without the spy cams.
> 
> As a Pats fan, should I be disgusted as because of Bellicheck. Simply put, no. I was upset when it happened. It bothered me that the teams image was tarnished, but Bellicheck issued an apology to the fans, Kraft, and the Patriots organization. I am willing to accept the apology and move on. Should something else happen, I don't think I will be as forgiving regardless of his coaching record.


While I would agree if this was first time thing, they had 5+ years of video footage. To me thats more then enough to use to your advantage. I'm not asking Pats fans to be disgusted, just don't be upset a lot of us don't see your team in the same light.


----------



## djlong

Every football player from Pee-Wee level on up knows that "holding" is illegal. This rule is in effect and players are repeatedly reminded of the illegality of this year after year as they rise through the ranks. Therefore, anyone who has not learned by the time they make the pros should be forced to forfeit the game for the team they are playing on if they get caught "holding". In the case of more serious infractions, such as pass interference or unsportsmanlike conduct, teams should lose their franchise for the repeated, willful and blatant disregard for the rules!

[sarcasm off]

Give me a break!

You can start talking about forfeits and other kinds of penalties like that when a situation like Jack Tatum vs Daryl Stingley results in a lifetime ban (which, for the record, didn't even result in a penalty, though now leading a hit with your helmet will cost you 15 yards)


----------



## Stewart Vernon

djlong said:


> Every football player from Pee-Wee level on up knows that "holding" is illegal. This rule is in effect and players are repeatedly reminded of the illegality of this year after year as they rise through the ranks. Therefore, anyone who has not learned by the time they make the pros should be forced to forfeit the game for the team they are playing on if they get caught "holding". In the case of more serious infractions, such as pass interference or unsportsmanlike conduct, teams should lose their franchise for the repeated, willful and blatant disregard for the rules!
> 
> [sarcasm off]
> 
> Give me a break!


Well said. I find it interesting sometimes where people will draw the line as far as where they get angered by a transgression.

I admit that my personal opinion of the coach and organization did change after this year's scandal, and I think it is fair that I have a different opinion from this point forward... but that is both the beginning and end of it. Unless someone can come forward and say they were similarly cheating in other games this season, I don't see what that instance (already punished) has to do with the rest of this season.

I think, however, it may be a fair discussion to ask how this affected the Pats last season or the one before that and so on before they were caught... but I don't see how this season can be questioned.


----------



## brownram

we all cant have a organization with high moral standards and professional excellence like the colts


----------



## vankai

brownram said:


> we all cant have a organization with high moral standards and professional excellence like the colts


San Antonio Spurs !!!!!


----------



## phat78boy

See, IMHO, them getting caught during the season did not give any teams a chance to change signs and playbooks. While this might seem easy, once you start the season there is very little done to signs and playbooks. The whole off season is spent memorizing very large playbook and all the corresponding signs. With that, if they had years worth of footage, most teams would take their chance or try to hide signs better then have a whole team re-learn these items. 

Thats why I have less admiration for this record and this team. Even cheating, I'm sure its very hard to go 16-0 and I give them some credit for that. Everytime I see them hit wide open receivers in "must catch" situations, I wonder though.


----------



## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> No matter what you think, the fact is, THE 2007-2008 NE PATRIOTS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY!!!


You were saying...?

*WRONG!*


----------



## tsmacro

....the Patriots go from being "one the best teams of all time" to the second best team this year.


----------



## EXTREMUM

tsmacro said:


> ....the Patriots go from being "one the best teams of all time" to the second best team this year.


Nonetheless, they turned out to be the biggest sore losers in history. The coach and offensive line had a lot of nerve leave the game, before it was even over.

:nono2:


----------



## mxd

WOO HOO--Congrats GIANTS!!!!


----------



## mxd

EXTREMUM said:


> Nonetheless, they turned out to be the biggest sore losers in history. The coach and offensive line had a lot of nerve to head to the lockers, before the game was even over.
> 
> :nono2:


Yeah, another example of Belichik's arrogance!


----------



## ccr1958

EXTREMUM said:


> Nonetheless, they turned out to be the biggest sore losers in history. The coach and offensive line had a lot of nerve to head to the lockers, before the game was even over.
> 
> :nono2:


yes that was unacceptable.....hope they get fined


----------



## Lord Vader

Poetic justice, or true justice? Especially in light of the revelation that they cheated against the Rams a few Super Bowls back.

After today's mediocre-at-best performance, the Patriots cannot even be ranked as "one of" the best teams of all time.


----------



## tsmacro

ccr1958 said:


> yes that was unacceptable.....hope they get fined


Well personally I think the whole "will they go undefeated" thing should've never even happened, they should've had to forfeit that game where they were caught cheating. Oh well none of it matters now anyway, another Manning is MVP, two years two brothers, there's your story!


----------



## tsmacro

Lord Vader said:


> Poetic justice, or true justice? Especially in light of the revelation that they cheated against the Rams a few Super Bowls back.
> 
> After today's mediocre-at-best performance, the Patriots cannot even be ranked as "one of" the best teams of all time.


At best they could be considered the 43rd best team of all time, you couldn't rank them ahead of any Superbowl winner.


----------



## Gonesouth

Lord Vader said:


> You were saying...?
> 
> *WRONG!*


Agree! The better team won tonight but the best team this year still goes to the pats.

I will not take the win away from the Giants. One of the better games that I can remember. Thank you D* for giving me the game in HD tonight.

To all you Giant fans. :gott: :bowdown:


----------



## fluffybear

At least now, we won't have people calling for an * to be placed behind the Patriots perfect record due to 'spygate'


----------



## Lord Vader

Gonesouth said:


> Agree! The better team won tonight but the best team this year still goes to the pats.
> 
> I will not take the win away from the Giants. One of the better games that I can remember. Thank you D* for giving me the game in HD tonight.
> 
> To all you Giant fans. :gott: :bowdown:


The best team wins the Super Bowl. Period. The Giants beat the Pats. The Giants are the best team. That is irrefutable and undeniable.


----------



## Gonesouth

Lord Vader said:


> The best team wins the Super Bowl. Period. The Giants beat the Pats. The Giants are the best team. That is irrefutable and undeniable.


I do not believe that for a minute. I just can not wrap my mind around that one. I already give you the win and the championship and the better team one tonight. The best team of the season? Nope.:nono:


----------



## Lord Vader

Sorry, but the facts speak otherwise, and you cannot say 2+2=5 when it clearly doesn't. If the Patriots were the best team they would have beaten the Giants. They didn't. Therefore, they are not the best team.

BTW, I'm not a Giants fan nor a Giants supporter.


----------



## vankai

We will see the Eli near-sack turned into the Tyree reception pinned to his helmet for years to come. That was an amazing play.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

EXTREMUM said:


> Nonetheless, they turned out to be the biggest sore losers in history. The coach and offensive line had a lot of nerve leave the game, before it was even over.
> 
> :nono2:


I knew someone was going to say something about that. Did you actually watch the game?

Belichick went over to the Giants sideline and shook hands with Coughlin and they talked for a few minutes. At this point he thought the game was over, and even with 1 second on the clock it really was over.

It isn't like he sulked off mad and hid... He went over and congratulated the Giants as winners and then he went into the tunnel.

Randy Moss even sounded classy too in the postgame press conference. He said the better team won, and that the Giants played with more intensity than they did. Same for Belichik in postgame, he too said the Giants made plays when they needed them, his team didn't.

Unless someone else is seeing stuff that I didn't.. I haven't heard one Patriot say anything but crediting the Giants for winning.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The very first thing Belichick did was thank the Refs, then continue as HDMe indicates. Lots of confusion in that last bit, was there or wasn't time left. The important thing is he did the classy thing thanking and congratulating the right people. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Tom Robertson said:


> The very first thing Belichick did was thank the Refs, then continue as HDMe indicates. Lots of confusion in that last bit, was there or wasn't time left. The important thing is he did the classy thing thanking and congratulating the right people.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I don't know about that. The referee was right there breaking up the hug between Belichick and Coughlin telling them there was time on the clock.

He knew damn well there was time on the clock when he left the field and went down the tunnel, confusion or not.

Yes, he made his way across and congratulated Coughlin, but I think you need to stand there and watch the snap before you leave the field - even if you're 3/4 of the way there when you stop to watch. The last play of the game shouldn't go off with the opposing coach and half the team already in the locker room.

Moss had the good sense to stop and stand on the sidelines to watch the last play. Belichick should have done the same.


----------



## Lord Vader

Belch is a classless and dishonest, arrogant thug. He deserved to lose.


----------



## EXTREMUM

HDMe said:


> I knew someone was going to say something about that. Did you actually watch the game?


Yes, it's also DVR'd. You care to see the replay? I'll even post it in HD. :lol:



> Belichick went over to the Giants sideline and shook hands with Coughlin and they talked for a few minutes. At this point he thought the game was over, and even with 1 second on the clock it really was over.
> 
> It isn't like he sulked off mad and hid... He went over and congratulated the Giants as winners and then he went into the tunnel.
> 
> Randy Moss even sounded classy too in the postgame press conference. He said the better team won, and that the Giants played with more intensity than they did. Same for Belichik in postgame, he too said the Giants made plays when they needed them, his team didn't.
> 
> Unless someone else is seeing stuff that I didn't.. I haven't heard one Patriot say anything but crediting the Giants for winning.


You're missing the point - THE GAME WAS NOT OVER! Having left the game before it was over, is a cowardess thing to do, during the Super Bowl. :nono2:


----------



## EXTREMUM

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Moss had the good sense to stop and stand on the sidelines to watch the last play. Belichick should have done the same.


Amen.


----------



## dirchm0628

Lord Vader said:


> The best team wins the Super Bowl. Period. The Giants beat the Pats. The Giants are the best team. That is irrefutable and undeniable.


Then by using your logic of a superbowl team is the best team...... Then Dilfer, Willims, Rypen and Brad Johnson are better quarterbacks than Marino too???

This is just another example of the NFL lining everything up for the mannings. I heard their next commercial they are actually licking Oreos off each others ..............


----------



## EXTREMUM

dirchm0628 said:


> is just another example of the NFL lining everything up for the mannings. I heard their next commercial they are actually licking Oreos off each others ..............


I already saw that commercial - strange, beyond comprehension. :nono:

Anyway, I predict Eli is going to get massive endorsement deals, after tonight. After a four years of struggling with the press and team, it's finally his time to shine.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

dirchm0628 said:


> Then by using your logic of a superbowl team is the best team...... Then Dilfer, Willims, Rypen and Brad Johnson are better quarterbacks than Marino too???
> 
> This is just another example of the NFL lining everything up for the mannings. I heard their next commercial they are actually licking Oreos off each others ..............


No one said that the Giants were superior at every position. Simply that they were a better TEAM. It's a collective greatness that doesn't necessarily mean that each player is the greatest player at his position.

I agree that the Giants are the better TEAM. They had a better season - they won the Super Bowl. Frankly, all the accomplishments the Patriots had during the regular season add up to a big pile of dung, in my book. They lost the Super Bowl. Their season, IMHO, is a failure.

The Giants dominated every phase of the game tonight. They made Tom Brady look like Trent Dilfer. Randy Moss was an after thought.

As to your last comment, I just dont understand. How did the NFL line everythign up for the Mannings? Unless I'm missing someone, Roger Gooddell and the rest of the NFL brass didn't have anything to do with the game that was played on the field.

And, to be honest, I think you could make a much better argument for the NFL setting everything up for Brady and the Patriots, given spygate and the pretty lax punishment doled out after all that. And after what appears, now, to have been a pretty half cocked investigation.

Despite all that, Brady and company couldn't pull this one off. They got beat by a better team.


----------



## Lord Vader

dirchm0628 said:


> Then by using your logic of a superbowl team is the best team...... Then Dilfer, Willims, Rypen and Brad Johnson are better quarterbacks than Marino too???


A faulty and illogical analogy.


----------



## EXTREMUM

tsmacro said:


> ...another Manning is MVP, two years two brothers, there's your story!


Next year, they go face-to-face.


----------



## FireMedic8039

For the Cheatriots...


----------



## FireMedic8039

And my Fins are still....


----------



## Stewart Vernon

EXTREMUM said:


> Yes, it's also DVR'd. You care to see the replay? I'll even post it in HD. :lol:
> 
> You're missing the point - THE GAME WAS NOT OVER! Having left the game before it was over, is a cowardess thing to do, during the Super Bowl. :nono2:


You know... before the Super Bowl today... I watched UNC play Florida St in basketball on FSN South. Game went into overtime, where UNC built a 10 pt lead. As the clock was ticking down the last 7 seconds, you could plainly see the head coaches begin shaking hands in the background and walking off the court. Meanwhile the clock was still running, the game was not over, and I think the UNC guy may have even travelled with the ball in that final 1 second tick.

So... by the definition implied here, both of those coaches were classless too because they were shaking hands before the game was technically over?

I honestly have never heard anyone stretch so far to make something out of nothing. The coach of the losing team shook hands with the opposing coach, and after the game I heard every single Patriot player congratulate the Giants for the win. Brady, Moss, Harrison, Belichick, and everyone who was asked said the Giants were the better team and made more plays in the game.

But I did hear a couple of Giants rubbing it into the Patriots... one even said their new motto was "18-1"..... so I'm trying to figure out who was being classless?


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

HDMe said:


> You know... before the Super Bowl today... I watched UNC play Florida St in basketball on FSN South. Game went into overtime, where UNC built a 10 pt lead. As the clock was ticking down the last 7 seconds, you could plainly see the head coaches begin shaking hands in the background and walking off the court. Meanwhile the clock was still running, the game was not over, and I think the UNC guy may have even travelled with the ball in that final 1 second tick.
> 
> So... by the definition implied here, both of those coaches were classless too because they were shaking hands before the game was technically over?
> 
> I honestly have never heard anyone stretch so far to make something out of nothing. The coach of the losing team shook hands with the opposing coach, and after the game I heard every single Patriot player congratulate the Giants for the win. Brady, Moss, Harrison, Belichick, and everyone who was asked said the Giants were the better team and made more plays in the game.
> 
> But I did hear a couple of Giants rubbing it into the Patriots... one even said their new motto was "18-1"..... so I'm trying to figure out who was being classless?


IN your scenario, the clock is still running. In the SuperBowl last night, the clock is not running, one more play has to be run. THe ball has to be snapped and the QB has to take the snap and kneel down. Yes the game is pretty much over, but the possibility exists for them to fumble that snap and if the Patriots recover they have a chance at another "Music City Miracle"... Granted it's a long shot, and the Patriots have pretty much conceded defeat, but the possibility, however slim, exists.

In your basketball game, the game is over, the winning team has the ball and they're standing around while the clock runs out.. .the coaches begin their post game congratulations early.

The Patriots had to put 11 players on the field, and didn't have a head coach out there to orchestrate it. THe players are left scrambling to find 11 guys to go out there.

And every member of the Patriots team stayed out there and watched the last play - including Randy Moss, who frankly I think is the most selfish player in the NFL.

I don't think it was "classless", but Belichick certainly should have known better... It was bush league.

And if the Giants said their new motto is 18-1, that's just as bush league. I hadn't heard that, but you said you did, and I think that it's just as bad as Belichick walking off early.

And, lets be honest about the situation. Belichick has a history of this kind of behaviour... If this was the first time he'd done somethign that someone thought was "bush league", he'd probably get a pass. BUt it's not the first time. Or even the second.


----------



## bidger

Sharkie_Fan said:


> And if the Giants said their new motto is 18-1, that's just as bush league.


Since that was their mission, which they accomplished, why is that "bush league"?


----------



## Lord Vader

*Article: He's a loser.*


----------



## tcusta00

FireMedic8039 said:


> And my Fins are still....


:gott:


----------



## tcusta00

FireMedic8039 said:


> And my Fins are still....


...but 18-1 is still better than 16-0, imho.


----------



## Ken S

tcusta00 said:


> ...but 18-1 is still better than 16-0, imho.


I'm by no means a Dolphins fan, but winning the Super Bowl is far better than losing the Super Bowl. The Patriots lost the single most important game of the season...they had a good season...but came up short of the entire reason that NFL teams compete.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Ken S said:


> I'm by no means a Dolphins fan, but winning the Super Bowl is far better than losing the Super Bowl. The Patriots lost the single most important game of the season...they had a good season...but came up short of the entire reason that NFL teams compete.


Only one team each year wins THE final game.

The dolphins did it in 72 after not having lost at any point previous.

The Patriots failed to win the final game.

In my book, 16-0 is better than 18-1 every day and twice on (Super Bowl) SUnday.


----------



## Lord Vader

So where is Steve Mehs? Eerily silent, isn't the braggard?


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Lord Vader said:


> So where is Steve Mehs? Eerily silent, isn't the braggard?


Probably off somewhere drowning his sorrows! :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't denial one of the stages of grief? 

Yup...



> *elisabeth kübler-ross - five stages of grief*
> 
> *kubler-ross model for death and bereavement counselling, personal change and trauma*
> 
> Dr Elisabeth Kübler-Ross pioneered methods in the support and counselling of personal trauma, grief and grieving.
> 
> Her ideas, notably the five stages of grief model (*denial*, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance), are also transferable to personal change and emotional upset resulting from factors other than death and dying.


Looks like Steve's in stage 1 right now.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think we'll be arguing for decades over whether the Pats or the Dolphins had a better season. To me, perfect is perfect. Imperfect is imperfect. I am NOT NOT NOT a Miami fan but they had a perfect run. 

Unfortunately the Pats did not.


----------



## tcusta00

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think we'll be arguing for decades over whether the Pats or the Dolphins had a better season. To me, perfect is perfect. Imperfect is imperfect. I am NOT NOT NOT a Miami fan but they had a perfect run.
> 
> Unfortunately the Pats did not.


But come on guys, 16-0 regular season is amazing. 18-0 up to the superbowl is awesome. So they choked in one game.:crying_sa


----------



## Lord Vader

Yeah, the biggest game of the year!


----------



## SDizzle

I think you can ask ANY player on the Patriots team if they would rather have lost the final regular season game to the Giants, but beat them in the Super Bowl, would they take it?? And they would all say HELL YES!!! Hey, 18-1 but winning the Super Bowl is a WHOLE lot different than 18-1 but losing the Super Bowl. All NFL teams shoot to win the Super Bowl as their #1 priority every year. 18-0 into the Super Bowl means squat!

Congrats to the 72 Fins who still get to gloat:lol: :lol:


----------



## SDizzle

tcusta00 said:


> But come on guys, 16-0 regular season is amazing. 18-0 up to the superbowl is awesome. So they choked in one game.:crying_sa


I would have rather choked in week 17 vs. the Giants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## phat78boy

tcusta00 said:


> ...but 18-1 is still better than 16-0, imho.


They are the only 18-1 team to not win the superbowl. So they can't even feel special in an 18-1 record.

Not sure how losing when it counts is better then going undefeated.


----------



## EXTREMUM

SDizzle said:


> I would have rather choked in week 17 vs. the Giants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


...and appropriately left the field, AFTER the game was over.


----------



## EXTREMUM

Here's my thoughts on the game...

I think the points spread was very inaccurate. Especially, after seeing how well the Giants performed in Week 17, and throughout the playoffs. The bookies across the country and Vegas must be facing bancruptcy, after the biggest upset in football history.


----------



## SDizzle

EXTREMUM said:


> Here's my thoughts on the game...
> 
> I think the points spread was very inaccurate. Especially, after seeing how well the Giants performed in Week 17, and throughout the playoffs. The bookies across the country and Vegas must be facing bancruptcy, after the biggest upset in football history.


I agree 100%!!!! How do you have such a LARGE point spread given the momentum the Giants had, and the performance 1 month ago against this same team?? And to be honest, the Patriots DID NOT look great in the playoffs when you compare them to their regular season performance. And Bellichick leaving with his team with time on the clock was a slap in the NFL's and the Giants' face!!! He's a punk. And if you watched his postgame interview, he proved once again he was a punk.


----------



## EXTREMUM

SDizzle said:


> I agree 100%!!!! How do you have such a LARGE point spread given the momentum the Giants had, and the performance 1 month ago against this same team?? And to be honest, the Patriots DID NOT look great in the playoffs when you compare them to their regular season performance. And Bellichick leaving with his team with time on the clock was a slap in the NFL's and the Giants' face!!! He's a punk. And if you watched his postgame interview, he proved once again he was a punk.


My first indicator of their progressing success, was when they beat my favorite team (Dallas Cowboys), whom they lost to twice in a row, during the regular season. This is one time I do believe in miracles, and that someone or something was looking after this team, to the very end. Nonetheless, their tremendous winning streak on the road (now a NFL record), was simply amazing.


----------



## EXTREMUM

Lord Vader said:


> *Article: He's a loser.*


Spot on!


----------



## SDizzle

Not that it matters to Bellichick......as he was fined $500K after week 1, but I would suspect there will be a fine handed down by the NFL for leaving early! So, this will now be 2 NY teams that he disrespected, and will be fined for:lol:


----------



## EXTREMUM

SDizzle said:


> Not that it matters to Bellichick......as he was fined $500K after week 1...


Whoa, what happened in Week 1?

I'm neither a fan of NE, NY, nor Indy, but after the two Manning brothers getting MVPs back-to-back, I would enjoy seeing them both go at it, next year.


----------



## SDizzle

EXTREMUM said:


> Whoa, what happened in Week 1?
> 
> I'm neither a fan of NE, NY, nor Indy, but after the two Manning brothers getting MVPs back-to-back, I would enjoy seeing them both go at it, next year.


What will Daddy do?!? He'll root for Peyton under his breath:lol: :lol:


----------



## Steve Mehs

Lord Vader said:


> So where is Steve Mehs? Eerily silent, isn't the braggard?


I do work you know and have to be back up in 5 hours. The Patriots played an awful game and deserved to lose. Their entire post season play was less then impressive, but they managed to win two of those games. Again, as I said many times, I am NOT a Patriots fan, I like a few players and the coach, having the Pats lose the Super Bowl means only one thing to me, the '72 Tunas still have a place in the history book. I will root for any team that challenges that feat except for the present days Dolphins and the Ponies.

I do feel bad for the Patriots, with under two minutes left it looked like the Patriots would be remembered for something extraordinary, now the 2007-2008 Patriots will be remembered as the team the choked and hold no relevance. But that's football. I'm a firm believer in finishing, and the Patriots couldn't finish, the game or the season, therefore have no business even being considered one of the top teams and no business winning.

In someways I'm glad they lost, nice slap to Boston sports.


----------



## Steve Mehs

Just saw this on XMFan, pretty funny.

http://www.xmfan.com/viewtopic.php?t=89252


----------



## Stewart Vernon

SDizzle said:


> I agree 100%!!!! How do you have such a LARGE point spread given the momentum the Giants had, and the performance 1 month ago against this same team?? And to be honest, the Patriots DID NOT look great in the playoffs when you compare them to their regular season performance. And Bellichick leaving with his team with time on the clock was a slap in the NFL's and the Giants' face!!! He's a punk. And if you watched his postgame interview, he proved once again he was a punk.


The Vegas points spread has virtually nothing to do with expected performance. The points spread is intended to promote equivalent betting on BOTH sides such that in the end, no matter who wins the game, the "house" wins.

So... a large point spread was designed to get more bets placed on the Giants, figuring more people would be betting on the Patriots. Be honest... even the most die-hard Giants fans would be hard-pressed to put a large sum of cash down against the Patriots before the game.

So the odds are stacked to encourage betting... IF more people bet on the Giants than the Patriots, then the odds would eventually slant the other way by gametime. That's how betting works basically.


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## jazzyd971fm

EXTREMUM said:


> Whoa, what happened in Week 1?
> 
> The spygate incident:nono:
> 
> Congrats to the New York Giants !!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Has anyone heard from Tiki Barber ????? Had to work this morning.


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## Ken S

EXTREMUM said:


> Here's my thoughts on the game...
> 
> I think the points spread was very inaccurate. Especially, after seeing how well the Giants performed in Week 17, and throughout the playoffs. The bookies across the country and Vegas must be facing bancruptcy, after the biggest upset in football history.


Smart bookies don't bet on games. The point spread is set to keep the money on both sides as even as possible. Bookies live off that nice little 10% vig.


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## Ken S

I see all this talk about the Patriots choking. I thought that was hardly the case. Giants outplayed them...especially their defensive front seven. They shut down Maroney and Faulk and had Brady under pressure all game. If anything the Patriots got out-coached...they weren't ready for the Giants defenses.


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## Stewart Vernon

Ken S said:


> I see all this talk about the Patriots choking. I thought that was hardly the case. Giants outplayed them...especially their defensive front seven. They shut down Maroney and Faulk and had Brady under pressure all game. If anything the Patriots got out-coached...they weren't ready for the Giants defenses.


You obviously watched the same game that I did! I don't know what game some other folks watched.

I saw a Giants team defense that played out of its mind good... and an offense that made all the necessary plays to get down the field to win.

I didn't see any Pats mistakes. I didn't see any missed penalties or bad ref calls. I didn't see any choking. I just saw a good team play better than a great team. The Pats were a great team this year. The Giants became a great team in the playoffs. If we started the season over again right now, the Giants might go on a big win streak and the Pats might lose a couple.

As they say... "that's why they play the games"...


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## Sharkie_Fan

HDMe said:


> You obviously watched the same game that I did! I don't know what game some other folks watched.
> 
> I saw a Giants team defense that played out of its mind good... and an offense that made all the necessary plays to get down the field to win.
> 
> I didn't see any Pats mistakes. I didn't see any missed penalties or bad ref calls. I didn't see any choking. I just saw a good team play better than a great team. The Pats were a great team this year. The Giants became a great team in the playoffs. If we started the season over again right now, the Giants might go on a big win streak and the Pats might lose a couple.
> 
> As they say... "that's why they play the games"...


I saw a couple of mistakes. Small ones. Not the kind that would turn a game, probably. Brady missed a few passes that he usually connects on... overthrew some guys, under threw some others.

But, credit the Giants for some of that. I heard on the radio that the Giants hit Brady 22 times - not including the 5 times they sacked him. Between the bum ankle - which I think is worse than anyone let on - and the relentless Giants pass rush, it's not surprising there were some misthrown balls.

I thought the two biggest mistakes, in my eyes, belong to Belickick. First off, going for it on 4th and 13 instead of taking the 3 points proves to be a big decision now. But I think in the heat of the game, that's sort of a slap in the face of the Giants, who up till that point had really handled the Patriots. For him to take the attitude that "we don't need 3 points right now"... bad choice.

And second... With 35 seconds left and timeouts to spare, why were the Patriots trying to get an 80+ yard touchdown throw? If you can pick up 20 at a pop 3 times you can at least give yourself a chance to tie the game. It'd be a LONG field goal, but sitting on your own 20 having not gained any yardage, you can't even attempt the field goal.

Hindsight is 20/20, and it's easy to point out the little mistakes now, but I agree with you guys - I didn't sit there last night and think that the Patriots were giving that game away. The Giants took that game away. They played out of their minds and deserved that victory.


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## vankai

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I thought the two biggest mistakes, in my eyes, belong to Belickick. First off, going for it on 4th and 13 instead of taking the 3 points proves to be a big decision now. But I think in the heat of the game, that's sort of a slap in the face of the Giants, who up till that point had really handled the Patriots. For him to take the attitude that "we don't need 3 points right now"... bad choice.
> 
> And second... With 35 seconds left and timeouts to spare, why were the Patriots trying to get an 80+ yard touchdown throw? If you can pick up 20 at a pop 3 times you can at least give yourself a chance to tie the game. It'd be a LONG field goal, but sitting on your own 20 having not gained any yardage, you can't even attempt the field goal.


Agreed, going on 4th at that time proved to be costly. As for the ~70 yard throw <damn, I didn't know Brady had that in him, bum ankle or not>, I betcha there were a lot of Giants fans that swallowed their popcorn. It had me at the edge of my seat.

What I'm curious about is if Beli could have challenged the fumble that was clearly recovered by the Pats, then clearly touched/downed by a Giants player, then clearly stolen in the 'not so much of a dog pile'? I believed that happened in the second quarter right after the Pats scored and was at the Giants ~30.

Also, I personally would have given MVP to Tyree on his helmet catch alone.

Regardless, the Giants are the Super Bowl XLII Champions, and will be 50 years from now. O yeah, the 72 Dolphins were the big winners yesterday too.


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## Sharkie_Fan

vankai said:


> Agreed, going on 4th at that time proved to be costly. As for the ~70 yard throw <damn, I didn't know Brady had that in him, bum ankle or not>, I betcha there were a lot of Giants fans that swallowed their popcorn. It had me at the edge of my seat.
> 
> What I'm curious about is if Beli could have challenged the fumble that was clearly recovered by the Pats, then clearly touched/downed by a Giants player, then clearly stolen in the 'not so much of a dog pile'? I believed that happened in the second quarter right after the Pats scored and was at the Giants ~30.
> 
> Also, I personally would have given MVP to Tyree on his helmet catch alone.
> 
> Regardless, the Giants are the Super Bowl XLII Champions, and will be 50 years from now. O yeah, the 72 Dolphins were the big winners yesterday too.


Good question on the fumble. It did seem pretty clear that the Patriots player had recovered, then the Giants player somehow wriggled underneath him and stole the ball away.

I personally thought the MVP could have gone to any one of the front 4 on the Giants defense. Justin Tuck, I believe, had 2 sacks and forced a fumble. He played like a possessed man. That the Giants could harass Brady rushing, for the most part, just 4 was remarkable.

The Eagles and the Ravens both managed to harass Brady a little, but they did it with a variety of looks and blitzes. The Giants managed more pressure with less rushers.

They were talking about this on the radio today, and this year, more than any other year ever, people will be talking about the losing team. usually the losing team is forgotten a few years later... Of the 49ers 5 Super Bowls, right off the top of my head, I could tell you they beat the Broncos and the Chargers. The Bengals were in there as well, because that's the game Tim Krumrie (I believe) broke his leg. The other two don't come so easily.

This game though, for years to come, people will remember that the Giants are the Super Bowl Champions, and they upended the 18-0 New England Patriots. Every time one of the records from this year comes up (50 TDs thrown, 23 TD receptions, 7 million points scored, etc), it will be follwed by "but they failed to win the Super Bowl". It's the kind of loss that is going to stick with those Patriots players for a LONG time.


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## Stewart Vernon

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I thought the two biggest mistakes, in my eyes, belong to Belickick. First off, going for it on 4th and 13 instead of taking the 3 points proves to be a big decision now. But I think in the heat of the game, that's sort of a slap in the face of the Giants, who up till that point had really handled the Patriots. For him to take the attitude that "we don't need 3 points right now"... bad choice.


I semi-agree with you here. I think going for that 4th down play actually was more about lack of confidence in their FG kicker. I think if they had Vinatieri from years past, they kick that FG no 2nd thoughts. But this kicker, that was just barely inside his range.

So I agree about it being a bad decision, but I think the bad decision was actually made a couple of years ago when they let Vinatieri go. This might prove to be the first time one of their player/personnel decisions actually backfired on them.



Sharkie_Fan said:


> And second... With 35 seconds left and timeouts to spare, why were the Patriots trying to get an 80+ yard touchdown throw? If you can pick up 20 at a pop 3 times you can at least give yourself a chance to tie the game. It'd be a LONG field goal, but sitting on your own 20 having not gained any yardage, you can't even attempt the field goal.


In hindsight, I grant you that as well. If he connects on that bomb OR if they get a pass interference call (I'm not saying they should have, but that's exactly the kind of play where sometimes refs get whistle happy)... then it is genius. But that play kind of forced them to do it again, since it took a lot of time off.

Honestly, across the league, I see a lot of teams not doing proper end-of-game short-time management in my opinion. I'm not a pro, but it does seem that some teams are doing worse at those situations than in years past.


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## Sharkie_Fan

HDMe said:


> Honestly, across the league, I see a lot of teams not doing proper end-of-game short-time management in my opinion. I'm not a pro, but it does seem that some teams are doing worse at those situations than in years past.


It very well could have been lack of confidence in the kicker that caused them to go for it on 4th. It would have been a 49 yarder, I believe... Either way, in hindsight, that is a HUGE 3 points.

And I agree completely with the clock management. Mike Nolan of the 49ers is quite possibly the WORST in the NFL at clock management. I think in general coaches in the NFL overlook some of the "small stuff" like end of game clock management.

I don't completely fault Belichick for the end of the game clock management. *I* think that trying to take some shorter stuff to get 50 or 60 yards and kick a long field goal would have been a better play.. *BUT*... there were only 35 seconds left - if Belichick decided there just wasn't enough time to try and take some shorter shots I could certainly understand why he would decide to play it the way he did.


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## Gonesouth

OK folks. I am a Green Bay fan and really did not care who won the game. Giants won the big one and can call themselves the champs. We can forget all the other games the Pats played this year.:nono2: 

Manning the MVP for chucking the ball up in the air. If you think anything else but luck on that play you are fooling yourself.:nono2: 

My hats off to the Giants for winning and I look forward to next season when the Pats still get a first round pick.:lol: 

Go Pack Go!


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## Ken S

Gonesouth said:


> OK folks. I am a Green Bay fan and really did not care who won the game. Giants won the big one and can call themselves the champs. We can forget all the other games the Pats played this year.:nono2:
> 
> Manning the MVP for chucking the ball up in the air. If you think anything else but luck on that play you are fooling yourself.:nono2:
> 
> My hats off to the Giants for winning and I look forward to next season when the Pats still get a first round pick.:lol:
> 
> Go Pack Go!


Any Packer fan should appreciate that play by Manning...it's not like Brett Favre hasn't done it about 100 times himself.


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## Stewart Vernon

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't completely fault Belichick for the end of the game clock management. *I* think that trying to take some shorter stuff to get 50 or 60 yards and kick a long field goal would have been a better play.. *BUT*... there were only 35 seconds left - if Belichick decided there just wasn't enough time to try and take some shorter shots I could certainly understand why he would decide to play it the way he did.


The interesting weird thing here is... back in Week 17, Manning had a 42-second TD drive at the end of the first half against New England... so all things considered, 35-seconds to get into FG range should be doable. Heck, even I thought for sure they would somehow pull it out of the fire and get down there to tie it.

Plaxico's 23-17 score was looking very possible at that point... imagining the Pats getting the tie at 17 and going into overtime, and maybe the Giants winning on a long TD play or a kickoff return in OT. But it never happened...


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