# Photo Editing software suggestions



## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I'll be on vacation next week, and I'll be taking many still images with my Sony digital camera. I Want to get a full featured photo editing program so I can edit them when I get home. Right now I currently use MS Photo Editor,a basic program that comes with Office. Any suggestions? How's Adobe Photo Shop? (ps- Mark, dont say Adobe is evil, that wont help me  )


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Photo Shop is the standard, but a very expensive standard. I use a program from Jasc Software called Paint Shop Pro and am VERY pleased with the results and have never needed anything that it doesn't do. It can be had for under $100.00. Version 7 is current. You can download an eval copy on their website. http://jasc.com/


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## Maniacal1 (Apr 9, 2002)

Steve, Adobe has a stripped down edition of Photoshop called Photoshop Essentials. It sells for around $99. I've never used Photoshop, but they tell me the omitted features in Essentials are the ones used to prepare a document for press. 

Before I used Photoshop Essentials, I was using Microsoft's PictureIt. It's sells for about $40 and is very easy to use. It's also got a bunch of easy photo projects like calendars and business cards and the like. 

Sure, go on vacation just as mine is ending.  Have a great one! Where are you going?


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Avoid Photoshop Essentials, PSP, etc. Why? Because there's a better program for free - The GIMP 1.2 available at www.gimp.org . If you are running Windows the port is www.gimp.org/win32 to get the files, and the automatic installer is http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/gimp/ . There's a MacOS X port somewhere, but I don't know exactly where to find it and I figure you don't use MacOSX

As for Photoshop - Photoshop 7 is a great, but severely overpriced program.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Microsoft Office Photo Editor.


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## JBKing (Mar 23, 2002)

Regarding GIMP, this is from the Windows download page:



> Warnings
> The program(s) might crash unexpectedly or behave otherwise strangely. (But of course, so do many commercial programs on Windows.) The stability seems to depend a lot on the machine, display drivers, other software installed, and whatnot. Presumably the more memory you have, the better GIMP works. (For any real image work, I would say 128 megabytes is minimum.) Many people do find GIMP very useful. But it is not a Photoshop killer (for real Photoshop users, that is), Photoshop has lots of features that the GIMP lacks.


'nuff said?

BTW, I use PictureIt! - not bad, fairly cheap, and oh-so easy to use. Photoshop is nice, but overly complicated, IMO, for just basic photo editing.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Steve, Photoshop Elements. GIMP puts way too many windows on your desktop. Its much nicer than anything else. You can purchase Photoshop Elements at Fry's for about $50... Can't beat that.... 

Elements removes much of the complication from the full version of Photoshop, but teaches you how to use the full version when you are ready. Don't let anyone kid you. Photoshop IS the standard and will be for years to come. Why not get your foot in the door. GIMP has too many issues on windows (GUI problems) for me.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

James_F. You're best complaint about GIMP is that it has a better organized interface? I've heard better ones - like "not looking like Windows" and one of my favorites - "not having the little logo that says Micros**t" approves of it. Seriously, GIMP, including the Windows port is far better than anything except Photoshop. If you have GUI problems, try using the port of GTK+ 2.0. The ONLY GUI problem I have (still using 1.3) is that I have HydraVision (part of the ATI Catalyst driver package) set to make windows semi-transparent when dragging, and the actual image part of the GIMP window turns to a black box. A very minor thing. If you don't have the money for real Photoshop, get The GIMP. Heck, get the GIMP anyways - it has by far the most efficient compression of anything and is the best program for making small, clean web graphics. But I do use Photoshop a LOT also. But Photoshop Elements is just a waste of money - everything it has and more can be got for free. Same with Paint Shop Pro. BTW, the Windows port of GIMP is DARN STABLE. Never had a problem with the application crashing (I have had the occasional plugin fail, but not nearly as much in the newer ports). BTW, GIMP is not hard to use. If my 12 year old cousin has been using it for 2 years to make graphics for his webpage (and to mess up pictures of people. I never should have taught him how to use the iWarp plugin...) anybody can use it.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

But you can get Photoshop Elements for almost free. Why play around with GIMP when you can learn the best image editing software out there? I could see you saying that you don't get your money with Photoshop since most people don't know what the filters do, but Elements is a great introduction to a powerful image editing program. Learing GIMP does nothing for your resume. The only thing it has going for it is that its free. But you can get Elements for less than $50 at most places on the internet. Why not? I'm sure Steve would rather start messing with photos rather than learn a crappy LINUX interface...

Heck he can even get the education version (I think right?)....


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

"crappy LINUX interface"

Okay. You crossed a line with that statement. Take it back. And learn that's the normal X-Windows interface, not unique to Linux. The true Linux interface is a text prompt...


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

OK, I work with HP-UX and CDE all day. Believe me, I know how crappy it is.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Anyway, Windows puts all those tabs on the taskbar for the individual windows. Adobe and Macromedia don't....


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

James. That can make it EASIER to use. Personally one of my big dislikes towards Photoshop is the crappy interface...


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

But it is industry standard. Even you can't ignore that. Tell me that if you wouldn't want to learn how to use Photoshop to edit images... Do it with a strait face! Everyone who know anything about photo editing has the program.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Okay. I wouldn't see any difference. It takes less than 15 mins to go from knowing one to the other. And Photoshop Elements doesn't have all the good features of the real thing. If he's willing to buy the real thing - by all means get it. But elements is a waste of money. Plus, you should have the GIMP around anyways to compress web graphics because if you know how to use it it lets you tweak JPEG and PNG compression better than anything else, and it makes the smallest GIFs... Of course you should have Photoshop, I have Photoshop 7 and I use it a lot. But I also use the GIMP a lot, know both well, and can tell you for editing some snapshots without spending a fortune, the GIMP is the best program around. I spend a lot of my income on computer software (plus I get some packages as gifts from rich people I know), as software is just as important as hardware. I'm not dissing on Photoshop at all, but I feel I can fairly say Elements is a total waste.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Well we are getting no where. Elements does 90% of what Photoshop does. No CMYK or Pantone seperation, but who uses that? What does GIMP do that Elements can't do? (For the average user) We are talking photo manipulation here, not production of web graphics or director movies. You don't want too much compression of digital images or you will lose quality (I know you know that so lets not argue that point).


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

hopefully, ego will not get in the way of good advice and information at these forums:

Photo Retouching forum:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1006
Photo PC Tools Forum:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1004
Photo Mac Tools Forum:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1017

An interesting Paint Shop Pro site:
http://www.pinoy7.com/
I am sure there are similar sites for most good programs.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Sane advice, now that is going to get us nowhere... :lol:


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> now that is going to get us nowhere


and not nearly as fun. :lol:


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Not too much James. You want NONE. I mean, you have to use JPEG in the camera but you should convert to PNG or TIFF when you get home and do all editing like that. Then convert back to the HIGHEST QUAILTY, SMALLEST SUBSAMPLE JPEG possible before you burn to a CD to take down to the local photo lab to get prints (or if you're uploading to somewhere like Ofoto or Shutterfly you might have to compress a little more. Here in Kalispell one of the local labs does a better job, uses Agfa Prestige paper (my favorite paper) and only charges 10 cents more a print (for a total of 59 cents). And there's no upload hassle - you just take in a CD with the images.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Right.... That is why I said compression setting are useless to him. Stay with TIFF and JPEG why posting on email or web. PNG is not supported by enough applications yet.... I'll agree its a great format, but as long as Microsoft doesn't support it in IE, then I couldn't recomend anyone using it.

This is why Photoshop Elements is good enough... Its a great way to get a taste of Photoshop without spending the money...


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

MICROSOFT DOES SUPPORT 8-bit and 24-bit PNG, making it more than competitive with GIF. They DO NOT support 32-bit PNG (like I use) in the WINDOWS version of their browser - they DO SUPPORT IT in the MacOS and WebTV browsers.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Don't yell.... Why use an 8-bit or 24-bit PNG?


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Because 24-bit PNG is the ONLY lossless 24bit format that works on the web (JPEG is lossy in all forms, GIF is only 8 bit indexed)

Because 8-bit PNGs are generally smaller than GIFs with the same palette and there are no legal issues with using them, unlike with GIFs (see www.burnallgifs.org ).


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

I use Edlin or vi for my Photo Editor. But it is a pain to change all those 1s and 0s just to change a color


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

But TIFF is a much better format for photos... If I'm sending one to a friend, I use jpg because they are familar with it. You can't get stuck up here Mark...


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

I hear that a lot James (TIFF is better for photos). I've never understood why. Both TIFF and PNG support full 32-bit graphics and are completely lossless. The only difference is PNG files are usually much smaller. All my CDs of photos are either in the JPEG at the settings the camera used with no edits. Or are JPEG with all quality settings (including subsample, etc) at the highest (I use these for taking in to get prints), or are PNG (my high quality archive CDs of the edited images).

I'm sorry TIFF - but I see no place for you in my world. I just don't need ya baby girl.

As for GIF - DIE GIF DIE!!!


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

TIFF is more universal. More software supports TIFF than any other. YES, most photo editing software released in the last few years supports PNG, but TIFF is universal. Hard Drives are cheap, so why add trouble with PNG? If you can survive without tiff, then go ahead, but for most people TIFF is a better solution...


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

"Hard Drives are cheap"

Hard drives are cheap but DVD-Rs are not. I don't have DVD-R, so I must use the smallest, well established lossless format to save space (I would use STiNg but given only one very expensive Photoshop plugin can open it, I wouldn't use it for an archival format...).


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Thanks for the suggestions guys, interestring debate too 

My camera can take pictures in the TIFF format, only problem is since there uncompressed I can only fit ~15/CD in 1200X1600 Fine mode. I did have Paint Shop Pro on my old PC, but had to uninstall it when I got Office 97 it since I was running out of HD space. I looked into MS Picture It a while ago, but I decided if I was going to go with MS I would get Photo Draw, but now thats RIP. Hows Macromedia Fireworks for photo editing?

PS- I'm taking a road trip to Boston, Ma


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Macromedia Fireworks is for web graphics, not good for photo editing. Try out the GIMP at least. If you don't like it, what have you lost? The time it takes to download 15MB. It's better than anything else except Photoshop, and it's free.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

I have a copy of fireworks that I got with Director. Not too bad. Its not really a photo editing tool like Photoshop is. If you have it, why not just try it. You can download Fireworks, Photoshop and others as trial and give it a go... That way you don't waste your money on something that you don't care for...

PhotoImpact by Ulead isn't too bad. My brother likes it.

http://www.ulead.com/pi/runme.htm

Or just use eBAY and find a older copy of Photohop 4 or 5. Then you can just upgrade it to 7 for only $125....

http://search.ebay.com/search/searc...=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=Photoshop+5


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Mark, how much do you like GIMP? :shrug:


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mark _
> *"Hard Drives are cheap"
> 
> Hard drives are cheap but DVD-Rs are not. I don't have DVD-R, so I must use the smallest, well established lossless format to save space (I would use STiNg but given only one very expensive Photoshop plugin can open it, I wouldn't use it for an archival format...). *


Why bother with DVD-Rs? I store all my images on Firewire drives... I have 8 40 gig firewire drives that cost much less than a DVD burner. DVD-Rs don't have a standard yet. I wouldn't store any important data on them. Its like the old optical drives, I have my thesis on one, but no drive to get it off of... 

IDE hard drives are so cheap that you don't need to archive them off on bad media....


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Ive had Fireworks MX for a while now but never used it, thats why I asked.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Just use The GIMP and if you don't find it does enough - upgrade to REAL Photoshop. I don't see why James is so opposed to it - it's free, so it hurts nothing to try it out.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

I'm not opposed to him trying it out. Just because its free doesn't mean that its the best tool...


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Well I got it! Adobe Photo Shop 7. I bought it off a friend for $50, who bought it at a computer show for $90. Sure beats the $600 MSRP.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Cool, Photoshop is the way to go... Will you sell it to me for $20?


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

WOW Steve! Great deal. Given it was $90 originally however, I'd carefully look at the box and everything to make sure it's legit.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Didnt come in a box just the jewel case, anyhow it works well. Not the best deal at a computer show Ive seen, like I said in another thread I got MS Office 97 Pro, also $600, for $60 at a computer show. At these prices Im willing to take a shot, no different then buying off Ebay I suppose. This program called Image Ready was also installed. I havent had time to play around with the software yet, I leave in 5 hours so I probably wont use it until I come back.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

You can call Adobe and they'll tell you. You can also find out when you try and upgrade it. Happened to my friend who bought one on eBay. Tried to put the number in and the upgrade told him to call a number. He did and Adobe told him he had a pirated copy. Find out now or find out later... Adobe did give him a discount on a legit product for leading them to the pirates...


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I recently bought Corel Draw 9 from a close out software outfit for under $10. I registered it when it arrived, so I assume it was legit. It came with only a slip case to hold the disc and no manuals. I ended up buying a couple of aftermarket books on the product and all seems well with it.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

When you upgrade, you'll find out. If you don't upgrade, they it doesn't matter....


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I talleyed up all the pictures I took over the past 5 days and transfered them from the 3" CD-Rs to a 4" CD-R. A grand total of 281 pics, all in 1600X1200 Fine rez. Most of them came out quite well, (especially considering this is the first time I used a digital cam for something other them goofing around.) Some of them, are way too dark, the flash didnt seem to help much in the aquarium. Lighting was great for seeing in person but not for pictures. I'm going to post a bunch of pics online, unedited. And then as I get time Adobe will get quite a work out.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Sounds cool. Its amazing at what you can correct with Photoshop!


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Well, during the Tech Chat this evening we had a serious thunderstorm roll through. I figured I would use this opportunity to attempt some lightning shots (VERY challenging). Here's the best one of the 420 pictures that I shot over the space of an hour or so (ah, the joys of digital cameras). Excuse how bright this shot is. It is a one second exposure taken at about 10:30PM.

http://www.pbase.com/image/3814190/large

Feel free to download it and play with it in your new software.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

WOW! That looks increadable! Sunset pic also looks great! Richard, I think we're getting that storm up here now  Lots of thunder, lightning and rain fade.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I was amazed that during the storm I only lost television for about 5 seconds (during the chat), while Starband was down for about a half an hour. It really let loose (not lose) for a while.  Made for at least one good picture though.


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