# Is it my hardware, software, or installation??



## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

I have a relatively new installation (installed July 4) and I am having an intermittant problem for which I've found a workaround. I'll occasionally lose satellite signal (don't we all) and am able to get it back by accessing the "point dish" screen








and choose "tuner input." I then manually change from 1 to 2 or vice versa and the signal strenght jumps and I regain my program.

Is this a function that should be performed automatically by my 622? Is it the result of a switch malfunction, incorrect dish orientation, or some other problem? My dish is planted in an area with some obstructions and it has a long cable run to the house (a situation that I can't change). So this may be the problem or a contributor to it. I have maintained the $6/month dish service contract but I don't want to call them out if the answer is that I need to sell my house and buy one with a better open view of the satellite. However, if this is indicitive of an equipment malfunction then I need to get it fixed.

Is this need to manually switch tuners normal??


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## gsarjeant (Sep 15, 2006)

lbeck said:


> Is this need to manually switch tuners normal??


I'm not sure what the cause of this is, but I've had the 622 for a month and have never had to do this, so I'm reasonably sure that it isn't normal.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Absolutely, definitely not normal operation. If you normally have a signal strength in the 90s (as your picture shows) on the transponder that you're losing signal, then most likely your 622 has a tuner that isn't functioning correctly. 

If the transponder(s) on which the channels are located that you're losing are much lower in signal strength, then your dish is misaligned, and needs to be adjusted. 

When you say long cable run, how long? Do you have switch somewhere in the run? What kind of switch, and where is it located (ie how far from dish and 622)?


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

> If you normally have a signal strength in the 90s (as your picture shows)


Sorry for the misleading picture. This is a screen capture from the PDF file shown in the manual on p114. I included it to be sure that readers knew what function I was accessing and changing. Actually, my signal strength is generally in the 70s. When I lose picture I still have signal but it generally is in the 40s and "not locked." After manually switching the tuner inout it jumps back to the 70s.

My cable run is 300 feet or so. This is to get to a location that has a clearer look at the satellite, but still looking through the tops of some trees. Unfortunately, I don't have an ideal site.

My thinking is that the "system" (the switch, the receiver, or the software) should have the ability to "sense" where the strongest signal is and use that tuner input. Another possibility is that I need to change the settings on my 622. In other words, it may now be locked into using e.g., Tuner 1, whereas if I have the unit set differently (e.g., to "dual mode") then maybe it finds the strongest signal. I hate to pay for a service call just to learn something that I missed in the Users Guide or informatin that I can get from this forum.

Thanks for your help.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

With a 300' cable run, now I really need to know if you have a switch and where it's located. 300' is about twice the maximum cable run for dishpro installs. Almost certainly your signal loss is caused by that, rather than anything else.

Two immediate things to do: Make absolutely sure that your dish is as peaked as physically possible. You need to be getting absolute maximum signal. Then, your cable run really needs to be RG-11 cable as opposed to RG-6 to cut down on the signal loss you're getting over the 300 feet.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

Thanks, Mark.

And my 300ft may actually be conservative (it may be further). Interesting that RG 11 provides less signal loss. Isn't that smaller cable than RG6? I always thought that bigger is better (e.g., for electricity current loss). I may go out and buy a roll of RG11. That's something that I can do if it will boost my signal appreciably.

I think that the dish is peaked as much as it can be. I was present when it was professionally installed and the technician worked a long time to get max signal.

So I guess that you're thinking that low signal strength may be the reason for the less potent tuner being selected?


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

The 622's dual tuners are both used at the same time. It's not that it uses one or the other based on signal strength. In dual mode, TV1 uses tuner 1 and TV2 uses tuner 2 in simple terms. When you display the point dish screen and change the tuner, that is just changing the tuner used for the signal strength display. It really has nothing to do with continuing to use that tuner when you return to watching TV.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

> When you display the point dish screen and change the tuner, that is just changing the tuner used for the signal strength display. It really has nothing to do with continuing to use that tuner when you return to watching TV.


Not so in my case. Unless something else is going on concurrently.

When I change the tuner number as described and the signal strength goes up, I switch back to live TV and I have a picture. I've even played around by switching the tuner to the other choice. The signal strength drops and I lose picture/sound.

Apparently you have sufficient signal strength on both of your tuner inputs so that you don't experience this problem.

Try this, Chuck:

1. go to the point dish screen and switch between the 2 tuner inputs
2. see if there is a marked difference in signal strength between the 2 and that both are fairly stable. You may need to switch transponders.
3. write or remember the signal strength, then exit the menu and watch live TV
4. return to the point dish screen and compare the signal strength to what you changed it to. It should remain as changed.
5. now switch to the other tuner input and return to step 4.

Showing that the signal stays as changed should confirm that it DOES have something to do with continuing to use that tuner when you return to watching TV


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

So early in the day and I already learned something. Thanks for enlightening me. I thought TV1 output always used tuner 1 (and the OTA tuner) and TV2 output always used tuner 2 but with the point dish screen it does appear you can change that. Now I wonder why (if tuners can be switched between outputs) the TV2 output can't use the OTA tuner.

Any how, I assume you have a sinlgle coax in that long run so I don't understand why one tuner would get a stronger signal than the other unless 1) its a problem with the switch or seperator or 2) its a problem with the tuner.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

> I assume you have a sinlgle coax in that long run so I don't understand why one tuner would get a stronger signal than the other unless 1) its a problem with the switch or seperator or 2) its a problem with the tuner.


You are correct about the sigle coax. Is it possible/better to have two? I see that the back of the 622 has inputs for sat1 and sat2. Does the switch have 2 outputs, or are 2 connections on the receiver available in case you have 2 dishes?

If a good fix is to plant 2 RG11 coax lines with separate switch/receiver lines then I can do that. I don't want to install another dish.

On the other hand, if I have a problem with the switch/separator/tuner then I need to have Dish exchange whatever is broken.


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

One coax should be fine. My comment was that a single coax would rule out one being bad and one being good.

The 622 must have a coax feed plugged into both tuner inputs. That can be done with outputs of a switch or with a seperator connected to the single coax.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

Yeah, I was going by the picture of the back of the unit as presented in the owners guide. I do recall now that they plugged in two inputs after a splitter.

It may be time to call Dish and explain my problem. Sometimes you get a good technician that can walk you through the problem as you are working with the remote in one hand and the phone in the other. But I have gotten some dingos that seem to be proficient with only the most rudimentary of problems (are you sure that your receiver is plugged in? - etc.).

I appreciate your help.

I'll still appreciate a response from anyone who may have experienced the same problem and did or didn't get it fixed. I'm still confused over why the 622 doesn't automatically select the strongest signal.

Maybe it's as you say - there shouldn't be a strongest signal.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

I learned a while back that TV1 didn't always use Tuner 1 by disconnecting the Tuner 2 coax and having TV1 complain. It surprised me.

There will always be "some" loss using a separator to feed both tuner inputs - it just usually isn't significant. Although you need both connected for normal operation, it would be instructive to remove the separator and connect the single coax into each tuner and just compare signal strength. If 1 & 2 are a lot closer w/o the separator, they are pretty cheap to see if it is that particular one. If Tuner 2 is a lot lower with a direct cable connect, you wouldn't see any improvement with two coax runs.

Afterthought: You could also replace/swap the short piece of coax between tuner 2 and the separator.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

> it would be instructive to remove the separator and connect the single coax into each tuner and just compare signal strength


Good idea. I'll try that over the weekend and report back. That should eliminate the question of a faulty splitter. If the strength remains different by a direct connect to sat1/sat2 then I will presume that the problem is inside the receiver.

I should have thought of that. Thanks for helping me think through the problem.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

I tried connecting the incoming single coax (before the separator) directly to the tuner and got no signal at all. Then I tried reversing the leads from the separator (i.e., rotating it 180 degrees and hooking up what was tuner 2 out to tuner 1 in) and found that one leg was indeed stronger than the other.

I called Dish and the technician said that the separator is more than a splitter and that is why I don't get a signal from the direct coax hookup. 

Dish is sending me a new separator to try.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

No need to do anything until you get another separator. But if that doesn't fix it, once the receiver completes a switch check and finds a DPP switch on TV1 and that a separator is installed (sending DPP commands on tuner 1 connection changes received signal on tuner 2 connection), you probably need to do a switch check with a direct connection to test. That's speculation - I'm still legacy LNBs.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

Got a new separator from Dish and tuner 2 did increase from about 74 to about 79. Tuner 1 remains at about 91. So was my separator bad?? I still don't know whether the problem, if there is one, is with my receiver. If the new separator showed 91/91 then I'd be satisfied that I had a separator problem.

Is it normal to have > 10 points difference between the 2 tuner inputs?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

No it's not normal. Have you replaced the short little cable that connects the separator to tuner 2? It's starting to sound to me like a cable connector problem, which would cause a signal strength loss for just one tuner, if it's that cable.


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## JerryEl (Oct 10, 2006)

Way back I had a similar problem with a long cable run when I had DTV. One higher up tech suggested I use a small satellite signal amp which I found online and it did the trick. HOWEVER! He did say it was at my own risk since it would void the warrantee. 

I only used it about a month because I poisoned a tree (deed restrictions on cutting trees) which allowed me to move the dish close to the house when it died and I could legally cut it down. :glasses: 

I still have it (if I can find it) if you want it, I believe it is dual feed in/out and self-powered.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

> Have you replaced the short little cable that connects the separator to tuner 2?


Yes. This is one of the first things that I eliminated by switching the 2 legs of short cable. The tuner discrepancy did not change (same tuner was low with switched cable)


> I still have it (if I can find it) if you want it


Thanks Jerry. Actually, I tried the amplifier route as a recommendation from a series of posts this past summer just after getting my 622. It didn't help much. Maybe yours is a different type (mine was Radio Shack). If you really want to get rid of it PM me with the details and maybe I can try it.


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## redbird (May 9, 2005)

It's normal for the output from the separator to be a little weaker on sat2 because it is from the upper frequency band. The higher the frequency, the higher the signal losses in the coax.


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

Explain further if you can. I was of the impression that the separator split the incoming signal to two identical tuners in the receiver. I wasn't aware that it sent different frequencies to the 2 tuners or that the tuners were somehow different.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

redbird said:


> It's normal for the output from the separator to be a little weaker on sat2 because it is from the upper frequency band. The higher the frequency, the higher the signal losses in the coax.


I don't believe that this is correct. The separator isn't a standard splitter. And, if you're using coax swept test to 2 GHZ or above, you won't have a problem with coax losses unless you're using cable runs longer than about 150 feet.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

The normal legacy frequency of 950-1450 MHz only carriers either Odd or Even transponders. DishPro carries both Odd and Even by also using 1650-2150 MHz. DishProPlus (and the separator) uses the lower range to carry some satellite's Odd / Even to tuner 1 and the higher frequency range to carry either Odd / Even from the satellite needed by tuner 2.

The higher frequency range will have more loss than the lower frequency range. Testing a coax to X GHz doesn't make the loss at 2 GHz the same as at 1 GHz. I don't think redbird meant the separator caused problems or the tuners were different. Just that there would be a lower signal number on tuner 2. I'm legacy, but if you use a separator, pick some satellite and transponder and compare the signal strength using Tuner 1 and Tuner 2, I wouldn't expect a huge difference, but the 600 MHz difference in frequencies may display a lower signal number. It is even possible the receiver is smart enough to have both tuners use the lower range when they need the same sat and transponder, but it would seem easier to program to have a range dedicated to each tuner.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Thanks CABill. I stand corrected. But, even with the separator in the line on mine, my tuner 1 and 2 signal levels are the same on the transponders that I checked.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

Measured signal levels on the tuners will always beat specualtion from a Legacy only guy!!


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## lbeck (Jun 27, 2006)

Just to bring closure to this thread....

I never was able to solve the observed difference in signal strength from the 2 legs of the splitter. However, reception on both tuners was acceptable 99% of the time, so I haven't worried more about it... Until last week.

I lost signal altogether for about 12 hours, then after checking all connections I called tech service. A few hours after making the appointment, the signal returned so I cancelled. Then it went out for several hours a day or so later, so I called for service again, and this time kept the appointment (even though the signal did return again). The technician surmised that I had a bad place in my long cable run, which I thought may be the case since I've had a few accidental cuts/repairs and the cable run is ~20 years old (used to go to an old 12 ft. dish). I also explained the problem of different signal strength on the 2 legs of the splitter. He suggested a new cable run and did it with a coax doublet (2 cables and a ground) and hooked a separate coax to each 622 input.

Not only did that solve my immedite problem, but my signal strength jumped to 91 on each leg. It had been about 80 on the strong leg and as low as 50 on the weak leg, depending on which transponder was selected.

I still can't explain why the splitter (which is more than a splitter) would deliver different strength, or at least what appeared to be different (maybe something was going on in the receiver) but getting separate feeds solved the problem.


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