# dish spam



## DanPFW (Sep 12, 2005)

I realize there is another thread about this, but it is still closed.

I recently sent a message to DISH tech support, and just got a response.

According to the response, most of their customers actually appreciate this practice, and that's why they do it! I'm not sure I believe most people appreciate the appearance of mysterious recording hogging their hard drives.

The other reason stated mentioned something in my customer residential agreement. I'll be looking for that tonight!

What really angers me about this is they put the same crap on both of my 501's, when 1 would be more than enough. At least give us a way to opt out of this garbage.

What happens if I have 40 hours of protected recordings? Do they start deleting?

Dan


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

As I posted on the other thread (I'll shorten it)...

The day Dish, without my permission, turns on either my 501 or 508 and records something I did not ask for is the day I forward part of my electric bill (prob about 5 cents worth LOL) to them and they had better pay for it or they will lose a customer.

It does not matter how little the wrong is... it's still wrong. Since I was never asked if I wanted this I wonder how Dish knows that most people like them turning on their machines in the middle of the night, using up peoples electric to record what amounts to a comercial.

These are not leased machines and I own them outright. Since dish finds the need in your setup to ask your permission for them to update the boxes programming by remote I wonder why they do not add this:

Do you authorize Dish to record crap on your hard drive in the middle of the night? Yes or No

If they can ask you for one they can ask for both.

So far neither of my machines have gotten the crap.

I'll let you know when I do.

-JB


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## honestbleeps (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm glad someone sees it from my perspective. Last time I checked the thread (I started it. it got closed), someone was telling me I shouldn't be annoyed, and I should "get a grip".

It's a matter of principle, folks. It's about the concept of "give an inch -- they'll take a mile".

If you don't complain about this - then they will expect you not to complain when they start recording one of these every week. Then they'll expect you not to complain when they're superimposing their own ads over the corner of a show you're watching. Then they'll expect you not to complain when they're querying your DVR to see what you've recorded, and start emailing or snail mailing you to try and sell you related products, DVD sets, etc.

Dish Network is not a TV station, and it is not google. It is supported by paying customers.

They've already taken away my damned Fox Sports Net and replaced it with a godawful Comcast Sports Net that's missing half the games I want to see. I don't need them feeding me ads first on my DVR, then superimposing them over my TV shows, then doing who knows what else....


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> The day Dish, without my permission, turns on either my 501 or 508 and records something I did not ask for is the day I forward part of my electric bill (prob about 5 cents worth LOL) to them and they had better pay for it or they will lose a customer.


How is this using your electricity? The DVR is always recording, even if it is just the buffer. Calm down man.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I remember recently when some people were mad that there was an HBO/SHO free preview weekend and Dish didn't tell them in advance about it... but if Dish drops advertising on the DVR to let them know of something upcoming, this is an invasion?

As I posted in the original, shut-down thread... the way I understand this is the DVR won't miss a timer event to record an advert, it only records those when you have nothing else set to record. And I believe it isn't in a protected mode by default, so you can delete it the same way you skip over any other commercials when watching.

The DVR is nice to skip past commercials... but knowing we do that makes it harder for companies and channels to charge for their advertising since we don't watch commercials... so the downloading of commercial programming is another way they can keep our bills cheaper.

I can delete an advert (deleted the one on my 501) just as easy as I can delete telemarketer messages from my voice mail, and throw away junk mail from my mailbox. In the scheme of things, this is pretty much a nit.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

The point is, you are already paying for the service, its not some free thing where you would expect ads. We will never see LOWER prices because they sold ad space, they will just raise their own revenues. I agree we have to stop this before it gets out of hand. See how people have reacted to the ads on this forum now. Thank goodness for Firefox and the RIP extension, I never have to see any of them, if I was forced to, I would go elsewhere, but at least this board is free, I am not paying over $100 a month for it, like I am for Dish to give me 20 watchable channels and 160 worthless pieces of crap.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Talk about craziness, this just isn't worth getting worked up over. Oh let's see, they recorded something on my DVR. I really don't feel like watching it, so I hit the Delete button, ok issue solved. I wish everyone advertised this way! Hell commercials every 10 or 15 mins during every show is more intrusive than an easily deleted promo on my DVR. It takes me longer to skip through those commercials than it takes to delete that promo. It all comes down to money of course and if advertisers aren't getting a return on their investment they need to find other ways where they do. And you better hope they find an effective way that involves tv. Otherwise if tv starts losing it's ad revenue every channel is going to have become a "premium channel" or go out of business. So bring on the DVR promos and give me the choice of which ones to watch and which ones to ignore!


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Bring it on, I would gladly pay for every single station I get, just like HBO, that way I would only have to pay for what I use and not the 160 channels I don't.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> The point is, you are already paying for the service, its not some free thing where you would expect ads. We will never see LOWER prices because they sold ad space, they will just raise their own revenues.


It is just as arguable that we are currently already seeing lower prices because they are selling ad space!

IF they were not selling the ad space, they would be charging us more money so they could make the same level of profit.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> Bring it on, I would gladly pay for every single station I get, just like HBO, that way I would only have to pay for what I use and not the 160 channels I don't.


Ok... so you watch HBO 24 hours a day every day of the year? You are paying to have HBO 24 hours a day 365 days a year.... so if you aren't watching it every single minute of every day, then you are paying for something you aren't using already!

If, for instance, you have a day job... and you sleep a little every day... you probably couldn't be watching TV for more than 12 hours a day give or take. So, if you watch HBO all 12 hours of every day you are still only getting 50% of what you are paying for, right?

And if you have any other channels that you aren't watching while watching HBO... then you are paying for those while you aren't using them too!

If we really dig into this "I don't want to pay for what I'm not watching" concept, it can be twisted however you want.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

HDMe, so what division of Dish do you work for? Me thinkst thou dost protest too much. Oh wait, you may be an advertiser. Your rational, if it can be called that, is like advice to a woman getting raped to "just lay back and enjoy it".

But better still, just PPV for every show watched. I bet in the end I would come out ahead. Like $.50 a show. I'd take that.


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## michaelL (Nov 30, 2004)

tsmacro said:


> Talk about craziness, this just isn't worth getting worked up over. Oh let's see, they recorded something on my DVR. I really don't feel like watching it, so I hit the Delete button, ok issue solved. I wish everyone advertised this way! Hell commercials every 10 or 15 mins during every show is more intrusive than an easily deleted promo on my DVR. It takes me longer to skip through those commercials than it takes to delete that promo. It all comes down to money of course and if advertisers aren't getting a return on their investment they need to find other ways where they do. And you better hope they find an effective way that involves tv. Otherwise if tv starts losing it's ad revenue every channel is going to have become a "premium channel" or go out of business. So bring on the DVR promos and give me the choice of which ones to watch and which ones to ignore!


This is exactly what people are complaining about. When TV (and commercials) first started, it was a "this program was brought to you by ...". Simple 30 second or 1 minute commercial. Now about 35% of the time is commercials (spread out every 5 to 10 minutes).

Going to movies. Originally there were no commercials. Then there was one commercial at the beginning. Now there is about 10 to 15 minutes of commercials at the beginning. In a few years I expect there will be commercials at the beginning and in the middle. 20 years from now, if things do not change, going to a movie will be the same as watching TV (with lots of commercials).

Right now it is not difficult to delete the one PVR commercial. What happens when there are 10 PVR commercials an hour. What happens when they force you to watch the PVR commercial before you can see your programs.

This is a very slippery slope...

(done ranting)
Mike


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

michaelL said:


> This is exactly what people are complaining about. When TV (and commercials) first started, it was a "this program was brought to you by ...". Simple 30 second or 1 minute commercial. Now about 35% of the time is commercials (spread out every 5 to 10 minutes).
> 
> Going to movies. Originally there were no commercials. Then there was one commercial at the beginning. Now there is about 10 to 15 minutes of commercials at the beginning. In a few years I expect there will be commercials at the beginning and in the middle. 20 years from now, if things do not change, going to a movie will be the same as watching TV (with lots of commercials).
> 
> ...


Yep, point being is that creating and delivering entertainment to the masses costs money, lots of it. Some of that money comes out of our pockets directly, paying for cable, satellite, movie tickets, etc. However a majority of that cost is defrayed by advertisers. Without the advertising money we'd all be shelling out more money from our own pockets to feed our entertainment habits. In a world without the advertising money every channel we wanted to watch would probably have a price in line with the HBO's & Showtimes of the world. This would also probably lead to fewer choices as there would probably be channels that just couldn't survive. Advertising is often annoying, but sometimes they actually inform us of a product or service that we are actually interested in. And guess what? Companies are going to keep trying different ways to reach us consumers and increase in the areas that are successful for them. Also consider how many of us would have jobs if the places we work for didn't advertise. Consider ads evil if you must, but in our capitalist soceity they are a necessary evil. As far as i'm concerned i'll take any that are less intrusive than what we have now, that gives me more control over what I do and don't have to watch. Seems to me downloading them on my DVR is an improvement. Will Dish ever send us 10 an hour? I highly doubt it, unless they want to really hurt their business. Heck at this point the practice is still experimental, they've sent what one so far? And only to some of the subscribers and it was actually a preview for a networks upcoming season of shows, which to me makes perfect sense, I actually would've watched that one if they had sent it to me. As long as they don't interfere with the stuff I chose to record and they don't force me to watch them, i'm all for 'em! I promise i'll even watch the ones that interest me! I don't see anything to "nip in the bud here", i'd encourage it's development actually.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> HDMe, so what division of Dish do you work for? Me thinkst thou dost protest too much. Oh wait, you may be an advertiser. Your rational, if it can be called that, is like advice to a woman getting raped to "just lay back and enjoy it".


It's pretty shameful to equate your satellite/cable service to a violent act of rape... demonstrating a lack of understanding of what it must be like to be a true victim of such an act.

However, if you truly feel that you are being "raped" by your TV service provider... I suggest you cancel the service immediately. That would be the rational response to how bad you feel it seems.

I don't work for anything close to Dish Network... and I don't always agree with everything they do either. I just don't see getting worked up about a 30 min commercial that you can delete in about 5 seconds. More time has been spent here complaining about it than the actual disruption it caused.



ebaltz said:


> But better still, just PPV for every show watched. I bet in the end I would come out ahead. Like $.50 a show. I'd take that.


Sure, if it were 50 cents per show... you might... but no one could possibly believe in such a fairy land happy time place where you could watch any show you wanted for 50 cents.

I'm sure most employers would love to pay their workers 50 cents an hour too, but that won't happen.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

lakebum431 said:


> How is this using your electricity? The DVR is always recording, even if it is just the buffer. Calm down man.


Since when is it always recording?

The DVR's have two modes:

1. Standby (green light off - very little electricity used)
2. On (green light on and always recording)

If you leave your machine in #2 you'll burn that hard drive off real fast LOL - I know as I went through 2 501's before Dish told me not to leave them on 24/7 (I had thought you needed to leave them on if you had an overnight recording set)

So when they "turn on" your machine by remote to record their commercial they are most certainly using up electricity. Sure it's not alot but as I said before..... it's a principla for me and since I did not tell them it was ok to use up "my" electricity to record "their" commericials there will be a problem when I come home and discover they did this.

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

HDMe said:


> I remember recently when some people were mad that there was an HBO/SHO free preview weekend and Dish didn't tell them in advance about it... but if Dish drops advertising on the DVR to let them know of something upcoming, this is an invasion?
> 
> As I posted in the original, shut-down thread... the way I understand this is the DVR won't miss a timer event to record an advert, it only records those when you have nothing else set to record. And I believe it isn't in a protected mode by default, so you can delete it the same way you skip over any other commercials when watching.
> 
> ...


Good then give us an option to accept these comercials and then deduct $1 (or whatever) from our bill. For those that do not want the commericials they can pay extra then *smiles*

So if I pull the plug from the wall at night so they cannot record will they send me a bill for lost advertising ROTFL!

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

tsmacro said:


> Talk about craziness, this just isn't worth getting worked up over. Oh let's see, they recorded something on my DVR. I really don't feel like watching it, so I hit the Delete button, ok issue solved. I wish everyone advertised this way! Hell commercials every 10 or 15 mins during every show is more intrusive than an easily deleted promo on my DVR. It takes me longer to skip through those commercials than it takes to delete that promo. It all comes down to money of course and if advertisers aren't getting a return on their investment they need to find other ways where they do. And you better hope they find an effective way that involves tv. Otherwise if tv starts losing it's ad revenue every channel is going to have become a "premium channel" or go out of business. So bring on the DVR promos and give me the choice of which ones to watch and which ones to ignore!


Raise my darn bill another 50 cents a month if they need the revenue but keep the darn ads off of "my" equipment!

People just do not get it. If we allow this it will only get worse and worse until we are getting nightly crap ads recorded.

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

HDMe said:


> It is just as arguable that we are currently already seeing lower prices because they are selling ad space!
> 
> IF they were not selling the ad space, they would be charging us more money so they could make the same level of profit.


Since they just started this crap I'm sure any day not they will lower our bills right?

right?

-JB


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

I dont' buy into any of that advertising crap. Advertisers suck, they spend billions of dollars on it yearly. Where do you think that money comes from. The products we buy. Those on this thread who think it is all just a nice thing for us and it helps keep prices down etc... are idiots (sorry but it true), the companies that advertise spend billions and that raises the cost of everything we buy. And Dish will use the revenue it generates to do their own advertising and annoy others.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

tsmacro said:


> Yep, point being is that creating and delivering entertainment to the masses costs money, lots of it. Some of that money comes out of our pockets directly, paying for cable, satellite, movie tickets, etc. However a majority of that cost is defrayed by advertisers. Without the advertising money we'd all be shelling out more money from our own pockets to feed our entertainment habits. In a world without the advertising money every channel we wanted to watch would probably have a price in line with the HBO's & Showtimes of the world. This would also probably lead to fewer choices as there would probably be channels that just couldn't survive. Advertising is often annoying, but sometimes they actually inform us of a product or service that we are actually interested in. And guess what? Companies are going to keep trying different ways to reach us consumers and increase in the areas that are successful for them. Also consider how many of us would have jobs if the places we work for didn't advertise. Consider ads evil if you must, but in our capitalist soceity they are a necessary evil. As far as i'm concerned i'll take any that are less intrusive than what we have now, that gives me more control over what I do and don't have to watch. Seems to me downloading them on my DVR is an improvement. Will Dish ever send us 10 an hour? I highly doubt it, unless they want to really hurt their business. Heck at this point the practice is still experimental, they've sent what one so far? And only to some of the subscribers and it was actually a preview for a networks upcoming season of shows, which to me makes perfect sense, I actually would've watched that one if they had sent it to me. As long as they don't interfere with the stuff I chose to record and they don't force me to watch them, i'm all for 'em! I promise i'll even watch the ones that interest me! I don't see anything to "nip in the bud here", i'd encourage it's development actually.


Since this advertising just started apparently (not talking about the channel ads) I question how much revenue Dish is getting.

IMHO this is more a test to see if we will allow this. They are seeing what our reaction is and if most people allow this they will ramp it up to make some $$$.

Pay TV is about to implode IMHO. They cannot keep rasiing prices and adding new channels forever. Eventually people will say enough.

The day I am offered a service where I can pick my channels be it dish or cable is the day I jump ship. I'm sure many others feel the same and eventually some start up company will figure this out and offer this.

Right now we have an illegal (yes I said illegal!) practice of the programmers getting together and "forcing" a "take ALL my channels or you get none" approach to selling to the distributors. This is why we have no choice. I'm sure if Dish could sell us ala cart and make the same profit they would.

If "any" other company on the planet told you that you had to buy a group of dis-similar products just to get one you would take your business elsewhere. If you did not have a choice (no competition) this is where the government steps in to break up uncompetative practices.

We have no choice right now. None, zero, zilch!

Show me where I can go to have a choice in what programming I want to pay for? The only answer you can give is that I can cancel pay tv.

Pay TV, like other "optional" things are just that optional but let me ask you this then....

If the local phone companies all forced us to take $50+ packages and would not sell us basic "phone only" service would this be ok? After all why do we "need" a phone? The government stepped in and forced them to stop the anti-competative practices.

Why is the government not stepping in now? Because the public is not demanding it. Once the programmers piss off enough people you can sure as bet that there will be congressional hearings into the pay tv industry.

my 2 cents

-JB


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> Since when is it always recording?
> 
> The DVR's have two modes:
> 
> ...


When I "turn on" my 942 or 625 from standby, I can always rewind 1 hour of whatever channel it happened to be on. Standby does NOT stop the perpetual recording process. Anyway, good hardrives can record constantly for years. Prior to Dish, I had 2 tivos recording constantly for 4 years without losing the hardrive.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

jrb531 said:


> Since this advertising just started apparently (not talking about the channel ads) I question how much revenue Dish is getting.
> 
> IMHO this is more a test to see if we will allow this. They are seeing what our reaction is and if most people allow this they will ramp it up to make some $$$.
> 
> ...


Beautifully said and totally correct. I don't understand why something isn't done. We should start demanding a la carte, and the government to force providers to offer it that way. And for those boo hooers who claim some small channels will go away, good, if no one watches them then why are they on anyway. Why should I pay for that crap. Its like social welfare for TV.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Rant mode on:

What a bunch of whiners. Remarks like they are just testing us to see if we will permit it are laughable. Dish has been sending these since DVR's were introduced. They do it so infrequently that the forums get these rediculas posts each time. It does not take away any from your recording time, it will not inturrupt your recording of a program. Who cares. Just delete it if you want. No one is forcing you to watch it, it is not in anyway a privacy issue, and our agreement to receive programming allows for it. By the way, even if you own the equipment, you don't own the programming or the way progamming is delivered to you. Of all the the things to complain about, this isn't even on the list.

Rant mode off.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> Raise my darn bill another 50 cents a month if they need the revenue but keep the darn ads off of "my" equipment!
> 
> People just do not get it. If we allow this it will only get worse and worse until we are getting nightly crap ads recorded.
> 
> -JB


Fine they can raise your bill 50 cents. Personally i'll take the easily deleted nightly "crap add" and keep my 50 cents, maybe i'll go spend it on what they're advertising.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> I dont' buy into any of that advertising crap. Advertisers suck, they spend billions of dollars on it yearly. Where do you think that money comes from. The products we buy. Those on this thread who think it is all just a nice thing for us and it helps keep prices down etc... are idiots (sorry but it true), the companies that advertise spend billions and that raises the cost of everything we buy. And Dish will use the revenue it generates to do their own advertising and annoy others.


I suppose the alternative is the companies could just not advertise at all, then no one would know they exist or about their products and they'd go out of business. I don't know about you but I know if the company I work for didn't advertise i'd be out of work. I'm sorry but i'm not buying into the whole "ads are evil" thing. I really have no clue why people get worked up over them to begin with. Firstly you can choose to ignore them if you want, if you decide to watch you decide whether or not you care about what they're telling you. It's not like anyone is forcing you watch them in the first place or forcing you to buy any of the products or services they offer. As long as you have a brain in your head and aren't some easily led automaton ads really really pose no threat to you. And sure maybe additional ad revenue for Dish doesn't lead to immediately lower bills for us, but I can guarantee that if they were hurting for add revenue we'd definitely see higher bills.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

tampa8 said:


> Rant mode on:
> 
> What a bunch of whiners. Remarks like they are just testing us to see if we will permit it are laughable. Dish has been sending these since DVR's were introduced. They do it so infrequently that the forums get these rediculas posts each time. It does not take away any from your recording time, it will not inturrupt your recording of a program. Who cares. Just delete it if you want. No one is forcing you to watch it, it is not in anyway a privacy issue, and our agreement to receive programming allows for it. By the way, even if you own the equipment, you don't own the programming or the way progamming is delivered to you. Of all the the things to complain about, this isn't even on the list.
> 
> Rant mode off.


It does seem there are some people out there who don't have any real problems so they create stuff to b!tch about. All I can figure is they are so bored in life they feel the need to create some artificial drama. :lol:


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

My company made 11 million last year and speant $0 on advertising. Non. We show up at a couple of trade shows. We sell because people who use it tell others about it.

I would challenge anyone to go a day without be hit with a single ad, they are intrusive, they are everywhere, and it only gets worse and will continue to until people complain enough or stop supporting companies who continue to inject it into more and more areas. No I will hand it to Dish, they gave us a DVR and I don't watch TV commercials any more because of it. So I am thankful for that. And thankfully my RIP for Firefox allows me to browse the internet without seeing ads and popups. See people got sick and tired of seeing them and someone made a browser and extensions that allow you to ignore them. More of that kind of stuff would be great.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> Since this advertising just started apparently (not talking about the channel ads) I question how much revenue Dish is getting.
> 
> IMHO this is more a test to see if we will allow this. They are seeing what our reaction is and if most people allow this they will ramp it up to make some $$$.
> 
> ...


That is a helluva rant. And after reading I understand you'd prefer to have the choice of ala carte. I have no problem with that, seems to a relevant enough beef to me. However it doesn't seem to have anything to with what I said. Unless I missed something, which is possible.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> My company made 11 million last year and speant $0 on advertising. Non. We show up at a couple of trade shows. We sell because people who use it tell others about it.


Maybe if your company spent a few bucks on advertising they would have made 20 million.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> My company made 11 million last year and speant $0 on advertising. Non. We show up at a couple of trade shows. We sell because people who use it tell others about it.
> 
> I would challenge anyone to go a day without be hit with a single ad, they are intrusive, they are everywhere, and it only gets worse and will continue to until people complain enough or stop supporting companies who continue to inject it into more and more areas. No I will hand it to Dish, they gave us a DVR and I don't watch TV commercials any more because of it. So I am thankful for that. And thankfully my RIP for Firefox allows me to browse the internet without seeing ads and popups. See people got sick and tired of seeing them and someone made a browser and extensions that allow you to ignore them. More of that kind of stuff would be great.


Well i'm sure your company works into its budget the cost of those trade shows. Other companies take their budgets and buy ads. You just spend your advertising bugets in different ways. Sure your way is less intrusive and I applaud you for that. However as nice as it would be not every company, for that matter not most probably, could follow your business plan and make it work for them. The truth of the matter is that when most companies advertise thier revenue increases from additional sales and this creates more jobs and they get bigger. Like I said ads aren't evil by definition, a lot of peoples livelihood depends on them. The fact that I have a brain allows me to tune out those that don't interest me. So no big deal as far as i'm concerned. And I do prefer less intrusive advertising and would take into account that when I chose who I do business with. So for example i'd give more consideration to ads that show up on my DVR that gives me the choice of whether I watch them or not.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> My company made 11 million last year and speant $0 on advertising. Non. We show up at a couple of trade shows. We sell because people who use it tell others about it.


Think about what you just wrote for a second...

Firstly, the trade show, setup cost + employees to be there + samples + whatever, has a cost to your company... and that is how they are choosing to spend their advertising dollars.

Second... the trade show itself must be advertising to promote its existence otherwise people/companies wouldn't know to go there and see stuff! So, they are advertising the trade show... and what they charge you for a setup fee includes cost for that advertising... so your company, in essence, is paying the trade show to advertise for them!

Thus... your company is spending advertising dollars after all. Just spending it in a different way, and at a more targetted audience.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

HDMe, of yeah you must be right, you seem to know everything, your arguments are always trying to compare apples and oranges. What part of $0 don't you understand. We don't setup and spend money at them, we attend them and people find us. But that is where we get a client or two. Most come via word of mouth. The point is if we had to spend money on advertising to sell our product then we would have to charge more for the product. That is the point of all of this. Advertsing cost money, big money and raises the cost of everything we buy, not lower it.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> HDMe, of yeah you must be right, you seem to know everything, your arguments are always trying to compare apples and oranges. What part of $0 don't you understand. We don't setup and spend money at them, we attend them and people find us. But that is where we get a client or two. Most come via word of mouth. The point is if we had to spend money on advertising to sell our product then we would have to charge more for the product. That is the point of all of this. Advertsing cost money, big money and raises the cost of everything we buy, not lower it.


Someone has never taken Business 101. A properly constructed advertising campaign should always bring in more $$ in increased revenues than the campaign costs. If this was not the case than there would be no such thing as advertising. How does a net increase in revenues result in increased charges to the consumer????


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> HDMe, of yeah you must be right, you seem to know everything, your arguments are always trying to compare apples and oranges. What part of $0 don't you understand. We don't setup and spend money at them, we attend them and people find us. But that is where we get a client or two. Most come via word of mouth. The point is if we had to spend money on advertising to sell our product then we would have to charge more for the product. That is the point of all of this. Advertsing cost money, big money and raises the cost of everything we buy, not lower it.


Somehow I doubt our economy would survive if we all had jobs where people had to go to trade shows and find another person who's attending that show so we can get what we want. Sounds like more work than i'd want to do just to buy something. It's great that it works for you, but like I said before it won't work for most of us. Sure advertising costs money, but for most companies it would cost more money not to advertise, in other words they'd go out of business. Then those people working there would be out of work and they wouldn't be able to afford to attend the trade show you're at and find you. Believe me you might think the world would be a better place for you if there was no advertising, but I think you'd probably be surprised on how it would adversely affect your standard of living.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

No we have a cool new trade show which is called the internet. You can find out anything you want on there, you don't need an ad to tell you about something. Only idiots sit around and wait for something to show up on TV to realize the "need" it or realise the "want" it.

So lets all just put ads on our foreheads and on our houses and everywhere we possibly can, what a wonderful world it would be. More ads, the better, ads everywhere, how great that would be, and those that complained could be told "just ignore them, its easy." Those same people probably told their neighbors in 1938 Germany to just go along, its all for the good of country, it will make life better. We'll be better off. 

I guess that business 101 class isn't too valuable since my 10 person company made $11million last year. I think I will pass on your education.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> No we have a cool new trade show which is called the internet. You can find out anything you want on there, you don't need an ad to tell you about something. Only idiots sit around and wait for something to show up on TV to realize the "need" it or realise the "want" it.
> 
> So lets all just put ads on our foreheads and on our houses and everywhere we possibly can, what a wonderful world it would be. More ads, the better, ads everywhere, how great that would be, and those that complained could be told "just ignore them, its easy." Those same people probably told their neighbors in 1938 Germany to just go along, its all for the good of country, it will make life better. We'll be better off.
> 
> I guess that business 101 class isn't too valuable since my 10 person company made $11million last year. I think I will pass on your education.


The point was, if your 10 person company had spent maybe 1 million in advertising, you may have ended up with $20 million last year. BTW, if you really believe advertising is analogous to Nazi Germany, you need to increase your medication.


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

Doesn't Business 101 say that the customer is always right. Regardless of the outcome. This is one of the main problems with businesses in the world today. They, the business think they are always right and not the customer. This is also another reason I filed a complaint with the better business bureau and the FCC about this practice on my product. Yes it is my 510, I paid for it. I do unplug it every night from the wall so I do not receive unwanted advertising. Also if you stop and think about it. What you received was not a advertisement, but a complete 30 min TV show. Advertising is one thing, but a complete TV show is something else. I will probably reach the point were I will just put the 510 in the closet and drag out the old VCR and a 2700 and hook them up to do my recordings once again. I pay for my programing, not DISH Network. I do not subscribe or pay for advertising or the download of complete shows I don't watch or did not want to watch. Big business needs to take a few lumps to realize this. If enough of us complain to the FCC and the Better Business Bureau were Dish is located, we will be heard. So instead of just ranting and raving, go ahead and go to the web sites for these sites and fill out a report. You will be heard. Dish does have to answer the complaints from the Better Business Bureau. Try it and see.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

Dave said:


> Doesn't Business 101 say that the customer is always right. Regardless of the outcome. This is one of the main problems with businesses in the world today. They, the business think they are always right and not the customer. This is also another reason I filed a complaint with the better business bureau and the FCC about this practice on my product. Yes it is my 510, I paid for it. I do unplug it every night from the wall so I do not receive unwanted advertising. Also if you stop and think about it. What you received was not a advertisement, but a complete 30 min TV show. Advertising is one thing, but a complete TV show is something else. I will probably reach the point were I will just put the 510 in the closet and drag out the old VCR and a 2700 and hook them up to do my recordings once again. I pay for my programing, not DISH Network. I do not subscribe or pay for advertising or the download of complete shows I don't watch or did not want to watch. Big business needs to take a few lumps to realize this. If enough of us complain to the FCC and the Better Business Bureau were Dish is located, we will be heard. So instead of just ranting and raving, go ahead and go to the web sites for these sites and fill out a report. You will be heard. Dish does have to answer the complaints from the Better Business Bureau. Try it and see.


You seem to believe you have some kind of Constitutional right to satellite programming. You do not. Dish is a company composed of investors. The company is responsible to the investors to make a profit. The business model for this is to invest huge sums in Satellites and pay large sums to providers of content 
so as to provide a service for which the consumer will pay. Hopefully the revenues from the consumer will be greater than the costs of the Satellites and programming (and other overhead expenses) thus providing a profit. Through trial and error, the company will discover the pricing points at which they maximize profits.

It is very possible the profit margin is not adequate or even negative. Where else can the company go for additional revenues? You guessed it (well, probably you didn't), selling some ad space. This extra revenue could be just enough to keep you in business without bothering the great majority of your customers.

Believe it or not, the Satellite companies are not rolling in dough from excess profits. Just ask VOOM and Primestar.

Bottom line, Get a life.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> No we have a cool new trade show which is called the internet. You can find out anything you want on there, you don't need an ad to tell you about something.


So how does the internet trade show work? You hope people search for you? How do new customers know you have a Web site unless you advertise in some way? And doesn't the Web site cost money? And the internet connection? Those are advertising dollars at work.

Do you send customers unsolicited emails to tell them about your Web site? That's advertising too... and if unsolicited (i.e. junk mail or DVR commercials) then might customers not complain about that too?

I'm just saying that there are costs of business, including advertising... and many ways to spend money to advertise that aren't just a commercial. Employees attending a trade show, for instance, aren't available to do work otherwise for the company if needed so that too is a cost of advertising. If you have a sales department, or a salesperson, then you are spending money on advertising whether you call it that or not.

Some advertising seems superfluous to me... Like do I need to see beer commercials and Pepsi commercials during every ball game to know those beverages exist? No, I don't think so... but they keep spending the money. Other products that are new, or improved in some way, or a new company need to advertise so people know they are out there.

To twist and reverse this... You say your company made 11 million last year... this means you have something that you sell to other people for a price. In this case, you are like the satellite provider, providing something at a cost for your customers.

Ok... so, maybe your customers wish they didn't have to pay so much for your product. They keep paying, because right now they don't have a better choice... but they will "jump" as soon as they do. Perhaps advertising would bring you more customers/business and thus accomplish two things:

1. You could lose some customers and not hurt the business because you have more customers due to advertising!
2. You could charge less for your product because you have more customers... and charging less might entice even more customers!

The US economy works in not-so-mysterious ways!


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

LtMunst said:


> You seem to believe you have some kind of Constitutional right to satellite programming. You do not. Dish is a company composed of investors. The company is responsible to the investors to make a profit. The business model for this is to invest huge sums in Satellites and pay large sums to providers of content
> so as to provide a service for which the consumer will pay. Hopefully the revenues from the consumer will be greater than the costs of the Satellites and programming (and other overhead expenses) thus providing a profit. Through trial and error, the company will discover the pricing points at which they maximize profits.
> 
> It is very possible the profit margin is not adequate or even negative. Where else can the company go for additional revenues? You guessed it (well, probably you didn't), selling some ad space. This extra revenue could be just enough to keep you in business without bothering the great majority of your customers.
> ...


Do we have a constitutional right to a telephone?

If not then why did the government step in and break up the anti-competative practices?

If you say yes then what makes a phone somehow "needed" over pay tv?

Last time I checked the government stepped in when "any" area of business became anti-competative to the point of manipulating their area of business in order to eliminate competition.

What competiton to the "programmers" have right now?

The "distributors" compete (Dish, Direct TV, Cable) but the programmers have no competition right now.

When did people forget that a wrong is still a wrong no matter how small the wrong may be?

How do you feel about phone ads? Like solicitors calling you on the phone advertizing things? Why do we have a do not call list?

Where do I have the option of telling dish that I do not want their crappy ads? You see if you give me the option to opt out of the free ads that so many see to want LOL then I'm all for it.

Take away my choice and you gain yourself a fight no matter how small others may find it.

All the have to do is put a little checkbox in the menu (like they do for other things) that say: Ads or no ads then everyone is happy.

And BTW, on the 501/508 when you power it off you "do" turn off the hard drive.
How do I know this.... when I turn the machine back on I see a little note on the display telling me to wait while the hard drive spins up 

-JB


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

JB, right one again!


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Dave said:


> Doesn't Business 101 say that the customer is always right. Regardless of the outcome. This is one of the main problems with businesses in the world today. They, the business think they are always right and not the customer. This is also another reason I filed a complaint with the better business bureau and the FCC about this practice on my product. Yes it is my 510, I paid for it. I do unplug it every night from the wall so I do not receive unwanted advertising. Also if you stop and think about it. What you received was not a advertisement, but a complete 30 min TV show. Advertising is one thing, but a complete TV show is something else. I will probably reach the point were I will just put the 510 in the closet and drag out the old VCR and a 2700 and hook them up to do my recordings once again. I pay for my programing, not DISH Network. I do not subscribe or pay for advertising or the download of complete shows I don't watch or did not want to watch. Big business needs to take a few lumps to realize this. If enough of us complain to the FCC and the Better Business Bureau were Dish is located, we will be heard. So instead of just ranting and raving, go ahead and go to the web sites for these sites and fill out a report. You will be heard. Dish does have to answer the complaints from the Better Business Bureau. Try it and see.


Well i'm a customer too and I wish they had sent me the 1/2 hour infomercial on the fall season of new shows on was it (NBC?), I think I would've enjoyed it. I wish they'd send me that kind of stuff more often or in my case at least once, I think it's a cool way of doing business and advertising. So here we are both customers with very different opinions can we both be "right"? And if we are how does Dish deal with us? I mean to make you happy they can't ever send you anything to check out or you contact attorney generals, the FCC and such. Meanwhile by not sending it to me they've got a disappointed customer so they lose again. So do they take the time, effort & cost to try to individualize how they deal with all 11.5 million of us so we're all happy? Well I suppose in a perfect world they would, but they'd probably drive themselves out of business if they had to go to that extent to make us all happy. So, they try different different things and see how the majority of us respond and how it affects their bottom line. So is the customer always right? No because with all the customers they have out there there's no way to make us all happy. But what the majority of your customers want is right. Because obviously I disagree with you I hope Dish does decide to do more of this kind of things. I guess we'll see who Dish decides is "right".


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

If a customer is able to call up and have certain programing added or removed, shouldn't the same customer have the option to call and say turn off the infomercial for my account? I mean they do it all day long for all there customers adding and canceling different programing and channels on just that customers receiver. Perhaps they should make this option available for turning off downloads to said customers DVR's. Just another thought on the matter. Who knows maybe they will do this one day for all there customers.


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## Racerx (Dec 5, 2004)

"According to the response, most of their customers actually appreciate this practice, and that's why they do it! I'm not sure I believe most people appreciate the appearance of mysterious recording hogging their hard drives."

You certainly do not expect a crook to not lie, do you? I'm sorry I left D*. These guys, and their crappy products are a joke, and I'm getting out as soon as my year is up. They can have their junky DVR reciever back, since it wouldn't even make an effective paperweight.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> Do we have a constitutional right to a telephone?
> 
> If not then why did the government step in and break up the anti-competative practices?
> 
> ...


This analogy is not valid. The goverment broke up Ma Bell because there was no alternative. A telephone is "needed" for emergency communications. Peoples lives often depend on making that 911 call. Last I checked you could not call the police, fire department, or ambulance from your cable TV. As for TV competition, at a minimum you currently have (local cable, local OTA, Dish, Direct, C-band, soon Fiber, etc, etc...) BTW, what did you mean by programmers not having competition??? Guess the Nielsen ratings aren't need anymore then.


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## michaelL (Nov 30, 2004)

LtMunst said:


> This analogy is not valid. The goverment broke up Ma Bell because there was no alternative. A telephone is "needed" for emergency communications. Peoples lives often depend on making that 911 call. Last I checked you could not call the police, fire department, or ambulance from your cable TV. As for TV competition, at a minimum you currently have (local cable, local OTA, Dish, Direct, C-band, soon Fiber, etc, etc...) BTW, what did you mean by programmers not having competition??? Guess the Nielsen ratings aren't need anymore then.


Didn't the feds step in when Dish tried to buy DirectTV? Doesn't the fed step in on a regular basis for cable. Didn't the feds step in to allow Dish/DirectTV to broadcast local channels...

Mike


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

At my local Sam's Club... they sell cases of Pepsi, Mountain Dew, etc... and a case (24 cans) costs you about $9.00... It's a good deal.

But, sometimes I want 12 cans of Pepsi and 12 cans of Mountain Dew... not 24 of each. The cans are packages as six-packs... but Sam's forces you to buy 24 of them at a time! They put up signs that say "no mixing of drinks, cases must be bought complete".

Why doesn't the government step in and prevent this illegal practice?

I hope the sarcasm above isn't lost on anyone!


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Well Mr. Apples and Oranges comparison genius. The difference with your example is that Costco has competitors, I can go to Target or Safeway or 1000 other stores and find one that sells Pepsi in the quantities I would like. Or step outside the store and buy them in single cans from the machine. Well you might say, Pepsi forces its distributors to only sell them in packs of 24 (which of course isn't true), so you can only buy them in this size and Costco's hands are tied I gather this is the argument about the ESPNs of the world "forcing" Dish and DTV and cable providers to sell only ESPN packs and not individual channels. The difference is that if I can't find Pepsi in the quantity I want there is always Coke (which is better anyway). And Coke probably sells their product in a quantity I want, and if they don't Diet Rite does, and if they don't RC does, and if they don't one of another 100+ soft drink companies will. There is enough competition that will allow me to find what I want in the quantity I want for the price I want. But as of now, Dish and Direct TV have their hands tied in that there aren't multiple ESPNs in the world yet. If some other sports programming network came around and offered a better deal with quality programming and offered providers single channel deals then that would probably win out and ESPN would have to capitulate and we would all benefit.

So give your analogies a rest.


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## odie (Jan 14, 2004)

Does any one know what channel it was recorded from? The reason I ask is that I have a 508 and did not get this promo. I am thinking it was on ch 101 which I have locked and hidden on my 508. If that is the reason I did not get it then it might be a solution to this problem. I have never recvd any type of promo from E* ever so either they dont want me to get it or it was on a ch that I locked.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Good question, do they record it from a channel or just download it somehow outside of the channel listings?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> Well Mr. Apples and Oranges comparison genius. The difference with your example is that Costco has competitors, I can go to Target or Safeway or 1000 other stores and find one that sells Pepsi in the quantities I would like. Or step outside the store and buy them in single cans from the machine. Well you might say, Pepsi forces its distributors to only sell them in packs of 24 (which of course isn't true), so you can only buy them in this size and Costco's hands are tied I gather this is the argument about the ESPNs of the world "forcing" Dish and DTV and cable providers to sell only ESPN packs and not individual channels. The difference is that if I can't find Pepsi in the quantity I want there is always Coke (which is better anyway). And Coke probably sells their product in a quantity I want, and if they don't Diet Rite does, and if they don't RC does, and if they don't one of another 100+ soft drink companies will. There is enough competition that will allow me to find what I want in the quantity I want for the price I want. But as of now, Dish and Direct TV have their hands tied in that there aren't multiple ESPNs in the world yet. If some other sports programming network came around and offered a better deal with quality programming and offered providers single channel deals then that would probably win out and ESPN would have to capitulate and we would all benefit.
> 
> So give your analogies a rest.


Who said anything about Costco's?

But anyway... Since you're so unhappy with your service... why do you pay for it?

If I was as unhappy as you sound, I would cancel my service immediately. Someone else pointed out that C-band offers a la carte, so maybe that would be a better choice for you too?

In business, competition only happens when people want another option. If enough people really don't like the Dish/DirecTV/C-band/Cable market then you could all band together, vote with your wallets, and a new competitor who caters to your desires may step forward.

But unless and until you show you are willing to vote with your wallet... why would any company take a risk at failure in starting an a la carte business?

I remember all the folks who said Dish/DirecTV/Cable sucked at HD and how they wish someone would offer more... then Cablevision started Voom... and look what happened there. It was more expensive than the competitors and it didn't last long. Sure, some channels survived and now we all have access to them at a cheaper rate because they are being offered by Dish who can sell them to us at $5 for the whole package, instead of the $30+ it cost for Voom by itself when it tried to be a stand alone company.

Here we have a real-world example of how people really don't want to pay more for just the channels they say they want.

Like they say every election... exercise your right to vote! Pay only for what you deem worthy of your hard earned money.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

odie said:


> Does any one know what channel it was recorded from? The reason I ask is that I have a 508 and did not get this promo. I am thinking it was on ch 101 which I have locked and hidden on my 508.


It is normally on CH101 in the early morning hours. I've only received it once in the 18 months or so that I have had a 501. They don't hit everyone at once.

JL


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## greatwhitenorth (Jul 18, 2005)

Most of the new DVR's download a movie just after the first software download at installation, about how to use a DVR. I believe this channel is is up somewhere in the 9000 range, although I can't find it on my 522. I didn't get the Program Preview either, probably because locals aren't available in my area.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

greatwhitenorth said:


> Most of the new DVR's download a movie just after the first software download at installation, about how to use a DVR. I believe this channel is is up somewhere in the 9000 range, although I can't find it on my 522. I didn't get the Program Preview either, probably because locals aren't available in my area.


That would be channel 9945. But that's not the 'spam' being complained about in this thread.

JL


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

michaelL said:


> Didn't the feds step in when Dish tried to buy DirectTV? Doesn't the fed step in on a regular basis for cable. Didn't the feds step in to allow Dish/DirectTV to broadcast local channels...
> 
> Mike


The Feds step in when they see one company potentially gaining too much marketshare. Since the Feds are clearly not declaring any of the Sats/Cable companies illegal monopolies at this point, why do we think they would try to enforce anti-competition claims against Dish for adding ads to a DVR? These stretches of logic have gone beyond silly.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

OK, for those who got this "spam" recording what model(s) DVR got the recording? I have a 921 and have not seen it.


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> Since when is it always recording?
> 
> The DVR's have two modes:
> 
> ...


More bad advice froma CSR. It records in standby mode. If you don't believe that shut it down for 30 minutes or so then try to rewind. It will rewind from the current point---not when you turned it off.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Geronimo said:


> More bad advice froma CSR. It records in standby mode. If you don't believe that shut it down for 30 minutes or so then try to rewind. It will rewind from the current point---not when you turned it off.


Would you like to rephrase that?

The receiver will turn itself on for DVR events and turn itself off at the end of the event.
If the receiver is on the rewind buffer is constantly being stored. If one changes channels or turns off the receiver the rewind buffer is erased. If you leave the receiver on while not watching TV the receiver will continue to spin the drive and buffer.

The power usage between a standby receiver and a running receiver is negligable. The only additional power being used is that to spin the drive. Very minor and since the power supply is running 24/7 probably not even measurable. If people are going to sweat things that small they probably shouldn't watch TV. 

JL


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

James Long said:


> Would you like to rephrase that?
> 
> The receiver will turn itself on for DVR events and turn itself off at the end of the event.
> If the receiver is on the rewind buffer is constantly being stored. If one changes channels or turns off the receiver the rewind buffer is erased. If you leave the receiver on while not watching TV the receiver will continue to spin the drive and buffer.
> ...


That is your opinion. Care to post your power supply findings?

The power used to spin a hard drive is a ton more than just in standby mode in which a tiny amount of power is used to maintain the system.

I don't care if the power usage is 1 cent... it's "my" 1 cent and not Dish's and until I authorize them to use up "my" power on "my" equipment then Dish had better not do it.

The post saying that they record in standby mode is pure and utter BS. I do not question that the CS rep said that but it is physically impossible to record to a hard drive that is not moving 

Call 10 CS reps and you will get 5 diff answers 

Either way "you" can choose to allow this intrusion. One of the main reasons I have a PVR is to avoid watching commercials. One of the main reason I pay for TV is to avoid watching commercials. If DIsh wants to institute two pricing plans - one with and one without commericials then fine by me.

Until that happens I'll pass on the commericials and the day Dish sends me one is the day I leave dish. I have other options and no matter how many times others tell me I should just grin and bear it "still" does not make it right.

THIS IS WRONG NO MATTER HOW SMALL THE WRONG!

Now stop trying to tell others how wonderful it is that Dish sends us commericials without us asking for them.

-JB


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> Either way "you" can choose to allow this intrusion. One of the main reasons I have a PVR is to avoid watching commercials. One of the main reason I pay for TV is to avoid watching commercials. If DIsh wants to institute two pricing plans - one with and one without commericials then fine by me.
> -JB


There is precedent for this type of pricing. I subscribe to Live365 online radio. You can listen for free if you don't mind the pop-ups and the commercials between songs.
If you pony up $4 a month, all the ads disappear.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jrb531 said:


> That is your opinion. Care to post your power supply findings?


You have not posted verifiable facts - don't ask for them.


jrb531 said:


> The power used to spin a hard drive is a ton more than just in standby mode in which a tiny amount of power is used to maintain the system.?


Odd. I pay for electricity by the kilowatt-hour, not the ton. Are you buying coal and running your own power plant and, if so, is it really a ton?


jrb531 said:


> The post saying that they record in standby mode is pure and utter BS. I do not question that the CS rep said that but it is physically impossible to record to a hard drive that is not moving


You are not understanding what the CS said. Given:
1) you have a DVR event scheduled in your timers menu
2) your receiver is turned OFF (in standby) at the time the event will begin
3) your receiver is still connected to AC power (not unplugged to "save power")
4) your receiver is still connected to a properly aimed satellite dish
THAT RECORDING WILL OCCUR

The receiver WILL record scheduled DVR events even if left in standby - no different than if you left it on 24/7. It will also record the special Dish Messages this thread is about if in standby and your receiver is targeted. Your receiver will turn off at the end of the recording (unless you show your presence by controlling the receiver).


jrb531 said:


> One of the main reasons I have a PVR is to avoid watching commercials. One of the main reason I pay for TV is to avoid watching commercials.


My receiver allowed me to delete the commercial. I was not forced to watch it. Were you?


jrb531 said:


> Now stop trying to tell others how wonderful it is that Dish sends us commericials without us asking for them.


I never said it was wonderful. Please don't use lies to attempt to make your points.

JL


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> I don't care if the power usage is 1 cent... it's "my" 1 cent and not Dish's and until I authorize them to use up "my" power on "my" equipment then Dish had better not do it.


Well, you did authorize them to use up your power.
Please read the contract that you signed with dish.

If you don't have it handy, here is a link
Dish Residential Customer Agreement 
read section 4.C


> DISH Network reserves the right to alter software in your DISH Network receiver, and *provide content to PVR products*


You said they could do this. So why are you complaining?


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> THIS IS WRONG NO MATTER HOW SMALL THE WRONG!
> 
> -JB


You're right it is wrong, personally I think it's not fair that some people got this and I didn't, I feel slighted.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

tsmacro said:


> You're right it is wrong, personally I think it's not fair that some people got this and I didn't, I feel slighted.


I did not get any ads either! I heard that I missed some good footage of Nikki Cox and her ample cleavage. Dish, where is my Nikki Cox??? :lol:


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

I'm still shocked at how many people these days find no issue with a company getting paid to "push" advertsing onto equipment we own. They are basically turning on our equipment by remote in order to record something they are getting paid for without asking first.

To each their own. Some people love commercials. People at work talk about some stupid commericial they saw the night before and good for them. Myself, well I do not care for them and want no part of them. I tolerate them on free TV because I know that is how the program is paid for. When I am paying for equipment and a large monthly fee then I reserve the right to skip the commericials, not watch them when I cannot skip them or, in this case, NOT have them remotely turn on "my" equipment to record a commericial.

Sure I can just delete it
Sure the electric only cost but a few pennies
Sure some may like the commercial

but you know what?

It's still wrong and there is nothing to prevent Dish from asking our permission first like they do in the setup menu when they ask if they are allowed to update our boxes unattended.

Why do they feel the need to ask about updates yet they feel they can record some 30 min infomercial without our permission.

How can anyone defend this. I guess they reason they feel they can get away with this are the very reason a few of us are getting flack for pointing our how wrong Dish is by doing this. Prob the same people who defend the programmers forcing large packages on us or the ones who tell us how great it is that we have so many channels even though we don't watch the vast majority of them yet are forced to pay for them.

-JB


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I own my home answering machine, and the phone it is connected to... I pay for monthly phone service... and yet people that I don't want to talk to keep calling and leaving messages on my machine! This takes electricity that I don't want to use, and prevents other people that I do want to talk to from calling while those people are on the phone.

Sure, there is a "Do not call" list I can be on to prevent telemarketers from calling... but what about people who dial the wrong number and leave messages? Or people who look my number up in the directory and call me? I don't want to pay for that intrusion either!

Ok, I feel silly now... so I'll stop.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Thanks again Mr. Apples and Oranges (aka HDMe). Another oh-so-helpful comparison. NOT.

Plus you can add call-block for numbers not in a white list so you don't have this. Plus, what is an answering machine? Do you really have one of those still? You mean you don't use the service that comes with your phone that stores messages offsite? 

The point again is not whether there are other annoying things that happen in life, the point is that they are annoying, we want choices to limit them and freedom from idiots who think unsolicted stuff is cool and everyone should just site back and accept it. That is why call blocking was invented, that is why SPAM filters were invented. We want all of it stopped and we want control over anything that comes into our house. We want annoyances gone or control over them.

So now start coming up with your next lame comparison.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> you can add call-block for numbers not in a white list so you don't have this. Plus, what is an answering machine? Do you really have one of those still? You mean you don't use the service that comes with your phone that stores messages offsite?
> 
> The point again is not whether there are other annoying things that happen in life, the point is that they are annoying, we want choices to limit them and freedom from idiots who think unsolicted stuff is cool and everyone should just site back and accept it. That is why call blocking was invented, that is why SPAM filters were invented. We want all of it stopped and we want control over anything that comes into our house. We want annoyances gone or control over them.


I dunno, I just have a hard time buying into your supposed level of outrage over this. All the things you mention I personally consider such minor annoyances that they're not worth getting excited about. I like to think of it as keeping things in their proper perspective. I guess i'm just going to have to accept the fact that we see this issue in two very different ways. Because what you seem to define as "wrong" just doesn't match mine. For example I would think it to be wrong to call someone an "idiot" just because they had a different opinion than mine. However Dish sending me a preview of upcoming new shows on during this fall season that I have a choice of watching or not, isn't wrong as far as i'm concerned. But anyway, I hope you have fun telling Dish to take a flying leap if they ever send you one of their promos/commercials/infomercials/or whatever they are. You do seem to be building yourself up to thoroughly enjoy your righteous indignation for the day it happens. Personally I still just wish they gave me the opportunity to check it out.


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> I'm still shocked at how many people these days find no issue with a company getting paid to "push" advertsing onto equipment we own. They are basically turning on our equipment by remote in order to record something they are getting paid for without asking first.


They DID ASK and YOU SAID YES!

Read the user agreement that everyone signs the day they sign up with dish
Dish Residential Customer Agreement  
Section 4.C


> DISH Network reserves the right to alter software in your DISH Network receiver, and provide content to PVR products


Everyone signed this agreement and agreed to let dish do this. You have nothing to complain about.

If you still don't like it, please see section 3.B


> You have the right to cancel your Service for any reason at any time by notifying us via telephone or in writing at the phone number or address set forth on page 1, above


And please, don't say that you signed an earlier version of the agreement. There are provisions in the earlier agreements that allow dish to modify the agreement and the means by which they have notified you of those changes.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

tsmacro said:


> I dunno, I just have a hard time buying into your supposed level of outrage over this. All the things you mention I personally consider such minor annoyances that they're not worth getting excited about. I like to think of it as keeping things in their proper perspective. I guess i'm just going to have to accept the fact that we see this issue in two very different ways. Because what you seem to define as "wrong" just doesn't match mine. For example I would think it to be wrong to call someone an "idiot" just because they had a different opinion than mine. However Dish sending me a preview of upcoming new shows on during this fall season that I have a choice of watching or not, isn't wrong as far as i'm concerned. But anyway, I hope you have fun telling Dish to take a flying leap if they ever send you one of their promos/commercials/infomercials/or whatever they are. You do seem to be building yourself up to thoroughly enjoy your righteous indignation for the day it happens. Personally I still just wish they gave me the opportunity to check it out.


I've noticed a trend with some people... on this forum and in the real world... that seem to enjoy complaining about things, and then doing nothing to change their situation. Like paying for something they say they don't like, but continuing to pay and continuing to complain when it would be so easy to remedy the situation themselves.

To each their own is what I usually say... and for some I guess complaining is more fun than being happy. Personally, I find complaining to be way too stressful so when I find myself in a situation that causes the kind of grief expressed here, I run high-tail away from the source of the stress!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> Plus, what is an answering machine? Do you really have one of those still? You mean you don't use the service that comes with your phone that stores messages offsite?


Same problem, different location... if I were paying for a service to hold phone calls for me elsewhere, then if people called and left unwanted messages it would just be another place for me to check and delete them.



ebaltz said:


> The point again is not whether there are other annoying things that happen in life, the point is that they are annoying, we want choices to limit them and freedom from idiots who think unsolicted stuff is cool and everyone should just site back and accept it. That is why call blocking was invented, that is why SPAM filters were invented. We want all of it stopped and we want control over anything that comes into our house. We want annoyances gone or control over them.
> 
> So now start coming up with your next lame comparison.


Actually the point really is... why are you complaining here? If you truly feel so seriously (and a few others that agree with you)... then tell Dish. Write them a letter, call them on the phone... and ask or demand that they change their policies for you or you will go elsewhere.

Maybe they will change for you at your request... but instead of asking them, you are complaining here which is the one place guaranteed not to be where change can be made to the agreement you signed with Dish!

Or... maybe they will say "no, sir you agreed to this"... and then you can leave Dish for another service and see if they will serve you better.

But to continually post/whine about something that most agree is trivial in the scheme of things... and not talk directly to the folks who might be able to help you... and to seemingly love complaining AND paying for the right to do so... that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

You're either happy or you aren't... express your unhappiness to Dish and see if they will help you. If they won't, then you can choose to stay or choose to leave. Seems fairly simple to me.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

Every street has one of those houses that the kids know to stay away from. You know, the one where if a kid cuts across the lawn, someone is running outside screaming to "stay off my property or I'll call the cops!" My bet is that a couple of people on this thread probably live in that house.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

LtMunst said:


> Every street has one of those houses that the kids know to stay away from. You know, the one where if a kid cuts across the lawn, someone is running outside screaming to "stay off my property or I'll call the cops!" My bet is that a couple of people on this thread probably live in that house.


Kids playing on the lawn and being kids.... NP.

Some kids doing it for the sole purpose to annoy then I take offense.

You see if this was some innocent "oops" or one time thing (lets hope it is) then I am very understanding. In fact I have always been very tolerant of the Dish PVR's and all the little glitches they have had over the years. Never complaining about them or saying D* PVR's are better or Tivo or whatnot.

But to be this is a corperate decision to force, not a 2 mins ad (heck that would still be wrong LOL) but some 30 min infomercial without asking.

To the person telling me to read the fine print. I don't give a rat's backside what the fine print says. It's still wrong. If they printed in the fine print the following:

"Dish reserves the right to disable your PVR or force you to not skip over recorded commericials"

How would you feel about that?

You see the reason that have to ask your permission before they send new programming to the PVR's is that some of us own our PVR's and they have to ask permission before they modify "our" hardware.

I see it the same way. Before you turn on "my" PVR and record some stupid 30 min commericial you had better ask for permission first and no fine print takes away my right of control over my equipment.

I wonder if this is why both my 501 and 508 did not get the commericial. I wonder if people who own their PVR's got a pass?

I'm sure that there has to be some legal different between those that "rent" their PVR's vs those that own them?

-JB


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> To the person telling me to read the fine print. I don't give a rat's backside what the fine print says. It's still wrong. If they printed in the fine print the following:
> 
> "Dish reserves the right to disable your PVR or force you to not skip over recorded commericials"
> 
> ...


The Networks that provide the programming you love so much get the bulk of their revenue from commercials. Without those commercials, network programming would die. You love to get on your moral high horse regarding the way Dish wronged you, but you have no problem demanding the right to skip thru the commercials that make your programs possible. Do we all do it? Of course. Is it wrong? Probably. Be careful what you wish for. If all the "wrongs" in this relationship are righted, you will lose your ability to skip commercials (and it won't be wrong, it will just suck).


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

Alright lets try another way to explain this. This is out and out S P A M. Also your DVR contains a hard drive which this program is recorded to. So perhaps if enough of us call the FCC and complain, and call it illegal under the SPAM act Dish will listen. Some of you are saying and laughing at that this guy. But it is a computer and under the SPAM act they can not do this. Unless you all just want the Government to open the door to all the SPAMMERS, and then you won't be able to have this discussion with out all the popups. So we are just suppose to except some SPAM because it is going to your TV's hard drive and not your computers?


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Yeah its like Dell having the right to download ads or something to my computer whenever they feel like, taking up my harddrive space and turning my computer on and off. How many people would stand for that?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Dave said:


> Alright lets try another way to explain this. This is out and out S P A M. Also your DVR contains a hard drive which this program is recorded to. So perhaps if enough of us call the FCC and complain, and call it illegal under the SPAM act Dish will listen. Some of you are saying and laughing at that this guy. But it is a computer and under the SPAM act they can not do this. Unless you all just want the Government to open the door to all the SPAMMERS, and then you won't be able to have this discussion with out all the popups. So we are just suppose to except some SPAM because it is going to your TV's hard drive and not your computers?


This is a discussion forum, and for us posters a free one at that. Someone posts something, and many people respond... and discussion happens. That means very likely differing opinions on things and differing reactions to things that bother one person but not another.

Ultimately, all that is accomplished here is discussion.

Now, for those who are truly annoyed by the DVR recording... posting here in this forum and complaining about the "evil empire" doesn't do much good. Some of us have suggested contacting Dish... others have suggested contacting the FCC or a lawyer or the BBB if they truly feel something illegal has happened.

But, at the end of the day... some folks seem to want to just complain, and then when the rest of us don't support their side... we are said to be "sitting back and taking it". Quite the reverse is true actually. We aren't bothered by this, so we have nothing to complain about. The folks that are complaining are the ones sitting and doing nothing, instead of as you suggest actually trying to do something about the injustice they feel has been done to them.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> Yeah its like Dell having the right to download ads or something to my computer whenever they feel like, taking up my harddrive space and turning my computer on and off. How many people would stand for that?


That depends... When you bought your Dell computer, did you agree to a service contract that allowed them to do that?

As many folks have pointed out... it is quite clear in the contract with Dish for DVRs that you are agreeing to allow them to download things to the DVR.

If you don't read the fine print, that's no one's fault but your own. If you read it later, and don't like it... then you can always cancel the service. I don't think anyone is forcing people to be a Dish customer, are they?


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

Dave said:


> Alright lets try another way to explain this. This is out and out S P A M. Also your DVR contains a hard drive which this program is recorded to. So perhaps if enough of us call the FCC and complain, and call it illegal under the SPAM act Dish will listen. Some of you are saying and laughing at that this guy. But it is a computer and under the SPAM act they can not do this. Unless you all just want the Government to open the door to all the SPAMMERS, and then you won't be able to have this discussion with out all the popups. So we are just suppose to except some SPAM because it is going to your TV's hard drive and not your computers?


Please, trying to apply to Can-Spam act to this is a serious stretch. That applies to E-mail accounts which this is not. Regardless, the act allows for Ads/solicitations from companies which you currently have a business relationship with.

This is really silly now. Let's see. Maybe the FBI can do a RICO investigation. Since the Ads use small amounts of extra electricity, perhaps we can use the Patriot act since our energy supplies fall under National Security. 

This equipment is totally proprietary to Dish. Though some may own their receivers, they knew when they bought it that they could ONLY be used with Dish Network Service. Subscribing to this service required that the customer agree to Dish's terms. As shown clearly in previous posts, placing ads on a subscriber's DVR is within the terms of the agreement. Go ahead and send your letters to the FCC. They will get you Nowhere. It is Not spam, nor is it a breach of contract.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Its not a matter of "what's in the small print" I am not saying I am going to drop my service or start a law suit or anything. I am just stating a point I think many people will agree with, unsolicited stuff, not matter the source or form, sucks, and consumers should seek to eliminate as much of it as possible by any means necessary. Maybe I should start a poll.

I did, see the general Dish DVR forum.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> Its not a matter of "what's in the small print" I am not saying I am going to drop my service or start a law suit or anything. I am just stating a point I think many people will agree with, unsolicited stuff, not matter the source or form, sucks, and consumers should seek to eliminate as much of it as possible by any means necessary. Maybe I should start a poll.
> 
> I did, see the general Dish DVR forum.


Now this is reasonable. I agree that this might bother some people who should let Dish know how they feel. There are people who do not mind or maybe even like getting the occasional ad. A poll would be interesting. I just think all the talk of Suits, breaking Federal Laws, complaining to the FCC etc, etc. was too much.


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

Dave said:


> Alright lets try another way to explain this. This is out and out S P A M.


It is never spam when you have agreed to receive it. And we all have agreed...


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

LtMunst said:


> This equipment is totally proprietary to Dish. Though some may own their receivers, they knew when they bought it that they could ONLY be used with Dish Network Service.


This actually brings up a topic I've thought about... I own one receiver, and lease another. But, neither receiver can be used for anything but Dish network... so I started wondering what exactly the benefits of ownership are anyway?

I own one, and logically I don't know why! Since owning it means I'd likely have to pay more to upgrade in the future vs a leased receiver... and if I ever leave Dish, it will become a fancy doorstop!


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

As I asked before:

If dish can add a checkbox to the PVR setup screen that says:

"Do you want us to automatically download new updates to your reciever without asking?"

why can't they add:

"Do you want us to download informational programs to your PVR's?"

They already do the first one so why not ask us? I'll even go so far as to tell them to leave this checked to the "yes download crap to my PVR" and let the seemingly "tiny" minority who oppose spam to find the setting in the setup menu and turn it off.

Seem like a fair and reasonable compromise?

-JB


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jrb531 said:


> why can't they add:
> 
> "Do you want us to download informational programs to your PVR's?"


Other than the "spam" being service driven instead of receiver driven, the quick answer is:
They don't want to.​
The user agreements allow them to do this, they are very infrequent and the messages are very targeted. This isn't a "everyone who has a DVR" message download. In essence, if the targeted receivers are not doing anything better (such as being used for viewing or recording other content) the system says "go record this feed for a few minutes".

As for software updates, they also only tie up the receiver during "down" time but they are more of an interruption as they CANNOT be stopped once the process has begun (without risking damage) and require a reboot at the end of the process.

And software updates hit ALL receivers at one time or another - much more often than E* sends out DVR messages.

BTW: If this really concerns you don't get a 625. That one will preload movies whether you buy them or not as part of the new VOD service. 

JL


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> BTW: If this really concerns you don't get a 625. That one will preload movies whether you buy them or not as part of the new VOD service.


Oh man... Now you did it! I can see the blood vessels bursting on a few foreheads now


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## Dish Product Consumer (Sep 24, 2005)

Big Bob said:


> They DID ASK and YOU SAID YES!
> 
> Read the user agreement that everyone signs the day they sign up with dish


I never signed anything. I bought my equipment in the store and installed it myself. Yes, the equipment was still "free" (credited over ~18 months). When the $99 DVR was ordered, they insisted on installing themselves. I insisted that they do not. My insistence trumped their insistence. When the Spam show downloaded itself, I insisted that they cancel and refund my Dish Equipmement protection thingy for $6/month (or whatever). They did. Reason being: if they abuse my equipment they can fix and replace it for free. They do.

When they no longer want my business, they can let me know. When I no longer want their service, I'll let them know. Everything (*EVERYTHING*) in the meantime is negotiable.

Smart consumers demand more and pay less. Dumb consumers demand less and pay more. I choose to be a smart consumer. Dish treads on dangerous ground when they mess with the smart consumer's business. I sought out their signal in sky rather than have some cable monkey just jack into my house.

Thank you to DanPFW and honestbleeps for initiating and continuing these posts. None of us has many posts here as I suspect there is better use of time than becoming Dish fanatics.


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