# Snooping on TIVO viewers. Can Dish do this?



## toddjb (May 7, 2002)

I was a little surprised to see the following CNN article regarding Tivo and its reporting of what people replayed during the superbowl;
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/02/03/television.tivo.reut/index.html



> ...This marks the third year that TiVo has released details of its second-by-second review of how Super Bowl viewers used their TiVo units...


So, on one hand, I think it is an invasion of privacy that you buy this hardware and pay for their monthly service and they then keep tabs on how you watch. Are Tivo viewers told this or can they opt out of the reporting??? This could obviously be used to see what you watch and target appropriate advertising.

Then, on the flip side, maybe this is a good argument for keeping DVRs "legal" even though consumers can skip through commercials. It can give marketers live consumer data.

Thoughts?


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## Maniacal1 (Apr 9, 2002)

This scare comes up every Super Bowl. 

Yes, this is covered in the TiVo manual. Yes, customers can opt out by calling TiVo.

All data that is gathered is anonymous. 

Yes, Dish can (and does) do the same thing.


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

On the contrary, Dish does *not* do the same thing. With a TiVO, when your unit calls to download the program guide updates, it also sends back usage statistic information (essentially a list of whatever your TiVO was used to watch). Dish does not have this data, since:

1) The programming guide is downloaded from satellite, so the receiver doesn't ever need to call Dish except to report PPV purchases or validate place of residency.

2) The act of receiving and tuning satellite channels is completely passive and one-way; the satellites do not know what channels are being watched, nor can they determine this (since there is nothing transmitted back into space).


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## toddjb (May 7, 2002)

Good points, Slordak. Thanks.


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## BrettStah (Feb 7, 2003)

DirecTivos do not call to download guide data... it also comes down via satellite. The standalone Tivos get data from phone calls (plus some late-night/early-morning special broadcasts on Discovery channel).

As previously stated, the data gathered and sent to Tivo is anonymous (except your ZIP code). You can apparently opt out with a phone call.


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

Slordak said:


> On the contrary, Dish does *not* do the same thing. With a TiVO, when your unit calls to download the program guide updates, it also sends back usage statistic information (essentially a list of whatever your TiVO was used to watch). Dish does not have this data, since:
> 
> 1) The programming guide is downloaded from satellite, so the receiver doesn't ever need to call Dish except to report PPV purchases or validate place of residency.
> 
> 2) The act of receiving and tuning satellite channels is completely passive and one-way; the satellites do not know what channels are being watched, nor can they determine this (since there is nothing transmitted back into space).


They'll get it the same way they get your PPV info.


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## rbyers (Jan 15, 2004)

On the other hand, why would you care.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Slordak said:


> On the contrary, Dish does *not* do the same thing. With a TiVO, when your unit calls to download the program guide updates, it also sends back usage statistic information (essentially a list of whatever your TiVO was used to watch). Dish does not have this data, since:
> 
> 1) The programming guide is downloaded from satellite, so the receiver doesn't ever need to call Dish except to report PPV purchases or validate place of residency.
> 
> 2) The act of receiving and tuning satellite channels is completely passive and one-way; the satellites do not know what channels are being watched, nor can they determine this (since there is nothing transmitted back into space).


There's no reason why Dish can't do the same thing. Why do you think they want the DVRs hooked up to a phone line? The PPVs are part of it, but they want to upload your viewing data.

Dennis


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> The standalone Tivos get data from phone calls (plus some late-night/early-morning special broadcasts on Discovery channel).


What exactly do those broadcasts send? They are crazy! A bunch of noise with text all over it, then a movie trailer.


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## HappyGoLucky (Jan 11, 2004)

Mike Richardson said:


> What exactly do those broadcasts send? They are crazy! A bunch of noise with text all over it, then a movie trailer.


The data is carried in the overscan signal which is part of every channel, even over-the-air broadcasts (and on cable). The same method is used by over-the-air channels to carry the time signal from PBS stations (that's how newer VCRs can set their own clocks), the Guide+ data is carried by many ABC stations, etc. You would not see anything on your TV screen when the data is being transmitted.


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## BrettStah (Feb 7, 2003)

Mike Richardson said:


> What exactly do those broadcasts send? They are crazy! A bunch of noise with text all over it, then a movie trailer.


Tivo developed a way of encoding guide data for the "national" channels (data that's the same for everyone, like CNN, ESPN, HBO, etc.) and sending this data via a normal video signal. They can send a large bulk of data this way to a large bulk of their customers, by only paying for a single time block at infomercial rates. This reduces the amount of time they need to pay to send guide data via phone line. If your Tivo has gotten the Discovery channel guide data broadcast, then it only needs the guide data for the local channels. I do not know if DirecTivos use the guide data that is broadcast via the Discovery channel though.


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

Incidentally, you can "see" this data on the 721's. 

If you go into your guide, or another screen that moves the current channel window to the upper right, if you look along the top of the video playing, you'll see a bar of "static." 

That is the datastream (which includes Closed Captioning, etc... as well)


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## AppliedAggression (Aug 16, 2003)

Not a single Dish receiver HAS to be connected to a phone line. You get no nag screens, nothing. I'd imagine that most aren't plugged in. As far as this tivo thing goes, i think tivo is taking it a little too far. To know what channels ppl are watching, that's fine. But when you start knowing when they paused, what they replayed etc.. i wouldn't want anything getting that specific, anonymous or not.


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

dbronstein said:


> There's no reason why Dish can't do the same thing. Why do you think they want the DVRs hooked up to a phone line? The PPVs are part of it, but they want to upload your viewing data.
> 
> Dennis


I took my 508, which had never been connected to a phone line in the 6 months I owned it, and hooked it up to a phone line. I then told it to call Dish Network. It happily did so, and once connected, completed its operations within about 5 seconds. Do we seriously think the unit was storing 6 months worth of viewing data and sent it all over a 56k modem (which is less than 56k upstream, by the way) in a few seconds?

If it is sending them any type of data, its not with any real granularity, and its effectively optional, since many folks never have their units hooked up to a phone line at all.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

It would require sofisticated and elegant programming in the 510/50x series to enable Dish to gather this information. I'm positive that we are safe.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

dbronstein said:


> There's no reason why Dish can't do the same thing. Why do you think they want the DVRs hooked up to a phone line? The PPVs are part of it, but they want to upload your viewing data.
> 
> Dennis


Yes there is nothing stoping Dish from doing it, but currently they are not collecting this data. My understanding the reason for having the units connected is PPV and to avoid sharing accounts. From what I can tell and from what I know, Dish is not collecting data at this point. They dont have enough bandwidth in software development to implement this features. They can barely keep up with the current bucket of bugs and enhancements. I would have agree with Cyclone.

On a side note. My understanding is that Tivo sells this information.


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

Cyclone said:


> It would require sofisticated and elegant programming in the 510/50x series to enable Dish to gather this information. I'm positive that we are safe.


 :lol: Good one! 

- John...


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Yes there is nothing stoping Dish from doing it, but currently they are not collecting this data. My understanding the reason for having the units connected is PPV and to avoid sharing accounts. From what I can tell and from what I know, Dish is not collecting data at this point. They dont have enough bandwidth in software development to implement this features. They can barely keep up with the current bucket of bugs and enhancements. I would have agree with Cyclone.
> 
> On a side note. My understanding is that Tivo sells this information.


Right, they're not doing it right now, but there's no reason they won't in the future, especially on newer boxes. And they want to do it for the same reason Tivo does it - to sell the data. It's a goldmine of information for advertisers and TV networks.

Dennis


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

dbronstein said:


> Right, they're not doing it right now, but there's no reason they won't in the future, especially on newer boxes. And they want to do it for the same reason Tivo does it - to sell the data. It's a goldmine of information for advertisers and TV networks.
> 
> Dennis


I agree and if Dish was to do this sort of thing, I would expect them to tell there customers and give them an option to opt out similar to Tivo. Hiding this sort of behavior in the past has usually resulted in a PR nightmare.


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## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

Slordak said:


> On the contrary, Dish does *not* do the same thing.


Dish has explicitly stated in the past they do not do this, and I have seen no definitive indication otherwise. However, I have not personally seen enough confirmation to be completely convinced (or any, for that matter).

First of all, my units dial Dish several times *a day*. I don't know what they're doing. I could find out, but have better things to do with my time and don't really care that much. Maybe somebody has bothered to put a scope on the line to see what's going on and has reported in some backwater forum.

Secondly, the way things work in the U S of A, you do whatever the heck you want until you get caught. Why on earth *wouldn't* E* do this when there's money to be made? Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but if you think E* is any different from the majority of big American companies run by over-achievers like Charlie Ergen, then you've probably been living in a cave for the last few years.

Above statements not the opinion of dbstalk.com, naturally. And maybe E* doesn't do this (is that a monkey I feel trying to fly out of my ... ? nah, just gas).

x


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## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

Cyclone said:


> It would require sofisticated and elegant programming in the 510/50x series to enable Dish to gather this information. I'm positive that we are safe.


That is the first convincing argument that E* receivers don't do this. I concede. 

x


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

Seriously, if Dish would give me some form of credit, say $9.99/month, I would happily allow them to (anonymously) track what I am watching, what I'm recording, and similar type of information. I don't mind them collecting and selling this information as long as I benefit in some way.


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

Heh. If you think Dish could sell what you watch for more than $10/month, then I think you're severely over-estimating how much an advertiser would pay per customer to know that you watched Janet's boob 7 times... 

- John...


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

I'm not saying that's a realistic number, I'm just saying that for a reasonable cash incentive, I would be happy to generate and report the type of data they are interested in


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## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

Slordak said:


> I'm not saying that's a realistic number, I'm just saying that for a reasonable cash incentive, I would be happy to generate and report the type of data they are interested in


What does Nielsen pay to hook one of their boxes to your TV? Probably not much, but it should be comparable, no?

x


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

What phone line? 

I don't even have a phone line. Why would I want one? That is so-o-o 20th century. 
My phone, laptop and TV are all wireless. Isn't everyone's?


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Not when you're in an area where 56K is one the fastest internet connections around and in an area on the boarder of cellular reception 

I'm not really concearned about the tracking, this all reminds me of the Pentium 3 identification number thing of a few years ago. I'd rather be a statistic for not watching reality based tv shows, then not be a statistic at all. If some company can make money knowing I watch crime dramas, NFL Football, and heavy metal based music video programs, more power to them.


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## tuna12 (Sep 26, 2002)

By Alyce Lomax 
February 5, 2004 
Is there a whole new meaning to the term "boob tube"? TiVo (Nasdaq: TIVO) tattled earlier this week that the Super Bowl's halftime show received twice as many viewers as the game itself.

If that news blip got you thinking, the rest of the story fell into place late Wednesday, when the company said it has signed an agreement with national ratings service provider Nielsen to market information to the television industry. TiVo, a Motley Fool Stock Advisor pick, said it will receive an undisclosed licensing fee from Nielsen. Privacy proponents will be relieved to know that the company will only track TiVo loyalists who "opt in."

The power of TiVo was evident in its post-Super Bowl announcement. According to the company, the Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction" incident caused "viewership [to spike] up to 180 percent as hundreds of thousands of households used TiVo's unique capabilities to pause and replay live television to view the incident again and again." Again and again, eh? Given the controversial nature of what happened, it's not too surprising, but it is a strong example of TiVo's power to track what viewers want to see.

The relationship between TiVo and Nielsen is not a new one. Back in Sept. 2002, Wired reported that the companies were conducting experiments to collect viewer data through their devices. Now, rumor has given way to a much more concrete deal, as well as an answer to one important piece of speculation. Namely, the idea of the death of advertising has been bandied about since TiVo's birth. But in addressing advertisers, the deal shows that maybe it's not the idea of skipped ads, but the ads that don't get skipped that advertisers need to think about.

(Several denizens of the TiVo discussion board have already been speculating about the Nielsen/TiVo connection before Wednesday's announcement. In fact, FrappuccinoFuel had already tuned right into the power of tracking popular ads.)

The announcement opens a lot of doors to speculation and ideas. Will networks such as General Electric's NBC (NYSE: GE) or Time Warner's (NYSE: TWX) cable stations go nuts for this opportunity? What about big-time advertisers such as Procter & Gamble (NYSE: PG), Anheuser-Busch (NYSE: BUD), or McDonald's (NYSE: MCD)? If they could find out what works and what doesn't, wouldn't they be "lovin' it"?

It's pretty interesting stuff, even though it may not change the competitive or financial outlook surrounding TiVo right now. If the privacy aspects don't add a little "fear factor" into viewers, it's an interesting new use for the machine.

Alyce Lomax does not own shares of TiVo, nor does she own a TiVo, though she knows some TiVo junkies and wishes she had one of her own. She welcomes your feedback via email.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Legal Information. ©1995-2004 The Motley Fool. All rights reserved.

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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

If my data was going to Nielsen, I would definitely opt in. I want the shows I watch to get good ratings so they'll stay on the air, and if I could do that by letting Dish sell my viewing data to Nielsen, I'd jump at the chance.

Dennis


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## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

tuna12 said:


> [...] TiVo's power to track what viewers want to see.


Indeed. In spite of the huge righteous outcry about the foulness of the deed, you can bet that all TV producers have taken note of the attraction of such titillating moments. Expect to see more - much, much more - of the same. Charlie's Angels wasn't a hit because of the erudite dialog ...

Nevertheless, I suppose that in some households, viewers were not pleased to learn that their "viewing habits" were made known to Homeland Security .. er .. Nielsen.

x


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

dbronstein said:


> If my data was going to Nielsen, I would definitely opt in. I want the shows I watch to get good ratings so they'll stay on the air, and if I could do that by letting Dish sell my viewing data to Nielsen, I'd jump at the chance.
> 
> Dennis


TiVo signed a pact with Nielsen on Wednesday. " Under the pact, the two companies will provide information on DVR use and viewing patterns to clients in the television and advertising industry, using a sample of TiVo's more than 1 million subscribers."

http://money.cnn.com/2004/02/04/technology/tivo_nielsen.reut/

I think that it is just a matter of time before DISH does this too (collects and sells viewing patterns from their DVR users). This is another revenue stream that they won't be able to overlook.


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## unix-guy (Jan 26, 2004)

AppliedAggression said:


> Not a single Dish receiver HAS to be connected to a phone line. You get no nag screens, nothing. I'd imagine that most aren't plugged in. As far as this tivo thing goes, i think tivo is taking it a little too far. To know what channels ppl are watching, that's fine. But when you start knowing when they paused, what they replayed etc.. i wouldn't want anything getting that specific, anonymous or not.


That is not true. I have a 522 and it will eventually complain if it is not able to get a dial-tone and tell you it needs to be connected to a phone line. I actually discovered a problem with my phone connection because of that.

Additionally, you get to pay an extra $5/month if you do not keep it constantly connected... 

Kevin


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## Tyralak (Jan 24, 2004)

Slordak said:


> I took my 508, which had never been connected to a phone line in the 6 months I owned it, and hooked it up to a phone line. I then told it to call Dish Network. It happily did so, and once connected, completed its operations within about 5 seconds. Do we seriously think the unit was storing 6 months worth of viewing data and sent it all over a 56k modem (which is less than 56k upstream, by the way) in a few seconds?
> 
> If it is sending them any type of data, its not with any real granularity, and its effectively optional, since many folks never have their units hooked up to a phone line at all.


That's exactly the point I was thinking of. The reciever would have to have the ABILITY to do so, and would have to store, process, and send all that data to Dish, who would then have to process it all. Seems like too much trouble to go to.


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## Tyralak (Jan 24, 2004)

Cyclone said:


> It would require sofisticated and elegant programming in the 510/50x series to enable Dish to gather this information. I'm positive that we are safe.


ROFLMAO!!!!!!!! That's pretty good.


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## Tyralak (Jan 24, 2004)

dbronstein said:


> If my data was going to Nielsen, I would definitely opt in. I want the shows I watch to get good ratings so they'll stay on the air, and if I could do that by letting Dish sell my viewing data to Nielsen, I'd jump at the chance.
> 
> Dennis


I would LOVE for Neilsen to put one of their boxes in my house. That way I could help keep the ratings for "Entrerprise" up.


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