# Is Microsoft a Dying Brand?



## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

_*NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Consumers have turned their backs on Microsoft. A company that once symbolized the future is now living in the past.
*
Microsoft has been late to the game in crucial modern technologies like mobile, search, media, gaming and tablets. It has even fallen behind in Web browsing, a market it once ruled with an iron fist._

http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/27/technology/microsoft_pdc/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=T2


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

It's still alive and well here in this wonderful lab at oklahoma state


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

It seems more reasonable to assert the Microsoft has turned their backs on the customers rather than the other way around.

Technical innovation (acquisition) has all but been replaced with marketing and legal maneuvering.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

No, Microsoft is not a laggard.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

I think Steve Jobs penned that piece under an assumed name...


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

Actually, it was based on the recent blog post by MS's outgoing chief software architect.
http://ozzie.net/docs/dawn-of-a-new-day/


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I have no doubt that Microsoft's technologists are as brilliant as their competitors. Problem is they need a change at the top, IMHO. If he stays, Ballmer should just manage the legacy corporate products and should report to someone with more vision who's not afraid to cannibalize existing revenue streams by proactively introducing new products/platforms/applications that don't have to be Windows-centric.

AFAIK, the X-box and Mac Office are the only major Microsoft products that aren't part of the Windows "family". Just my .02.


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## kiknwing (Jun 24, 2009)

Obviously the reporter does not have a xbox 360. How can you call the current top selling gaming console in the U.S. as a lagging technology?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Innovation is in the eyes of the marketplace.


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## Shaqdan (Jan 24, 2009)

I don' think anyone bought Windows 7.

ps: sarcasm


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Steve said:


> AFAIK, the X-box and Mac Office are the only major Microsoft products that aren't part of the Windows "family". Just my .02.


Microsoft Dynamics is another, even though it is software. But it is not consumer based at all (it is a business CRM).


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## sum_random_dork (Aug 21, 2008)

I think it's far from dead, the Windows Phone seems to be sold out for most pre-orders (Best Buy etc). Xbox is still at the top of their game and will get a big push when Kinect launces next month. Maybe the traditional Microsoft that many people knew is no longer there, but they still dominate the market in computers.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

It's still strong in some areas, but on the consumer side, it's fairly weak. When it comes to marketing, they are no Apple. The iPod is ubiquitous. The common person (who may not even have one) knows of it. They don't know Zune.

They were late to the Internet as a whole. The only reason IE became dominant is because it was bundled with Windows. As more and more people got familiar with the net, other browsers became more popular.

It does seem on the consumer side, the strongest parts are Windows (because that's what you get when you order a PC generally) and XBox. The 360 issues have cost Microsoft a fortune though.

They've also lost a known figure. Bill Gates had name recognition, like Steve Jobs. Ballmer, outside the tech circles doesn't. Most regular people probably would still name Gates as running Microsoft. They've certainly never heard of Ray Ozzie, or over at Apple, Phil Schiller.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Microsoft. Weren't they a company that made operating systems for personal computers? And didn't they become the largest such company in the world because more personal computers use their OS? Is Wikipedia wrong when it says "As of October 2009, Windows had approximately 91% of the market share of the client operating systems for usage on the Internet."

Yeah, they're not really a company that's going to generate a lot of their revenue in the phone business. Yep, not so much revenue from "crucial modern technologies like mobile, search, media, gaming and tablets." But one has to wonder - of those millions of iPads, how many are being synced on PC's with a Windows OS?

By the way, just how many businesses are depending on installed Windows OS PC's with Microsoft Office? Not nearly as important to keeping the economy running as those "crucial modern technologies like mobile, search, media, gaming and tablets", but kind of important.

Microsoft a Dying Brand? Not really.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

I think the point that most are missing is that the world seems to be on the cusp of moving away from personal computers and towards more portable and personal devices.
I've only had my Android phone for a few months, but already it has stolen about 30% of face time from my PC.

MS can stay focused on PC's and x-Boxes if they want to, but that is definitely not where the market is headed.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Stuff I love about MS:
1. Zune - much nicer than the iPod
2. Zune PC software - 100x better tan iTunes
3. XBOX 360 acting as a game machine
4. XBOX 360 acting as a media server
5. Windows 7
6. IE 9
7. Office 2010
8. Microsoft Security Essentials
9. Microsoft Flight Simulator
10. MS doesn't have that Apple "I drink coffee at Starbucks,therefore I'm cool" vibe.
11. Windows is ready for corporate prime time.


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## kiknwing (Jun 24, 2009)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Stuff I love about MS:
> 1. Zune - much nicer than the iPod
> 2. Zune PC software - 100x better tan iTunes
> 3. XBOX 360 acting as a game machine
> ...


You forgot one, the zune pass. $14.99 a month for unlimited access to 3+ million songs plus 10 songs to keep permanently every month. Can't find a better legal deal in town. The only reason its not popular is because it does not have an i in front of it.

Microsoft may be slow to the party but when they show up, they come in style (Windows phone 7, Xbox).


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I think it's a matter of perception. Microsoft has allowed itself to become "the man" as opposed to the scrappy upstart. Sure, it's nice to be "the man" in the sense that "the man" controls the planet and the scrappy upstart only wishes he did. But I think, moving into the 2010s, that we will be in a post-desktop world and Microsoft has the perception of being a desktop company. They haven't had nearly the same level of success as other companies in the mobile space and while I think it's too early to close the book on them, it's more likely that someone else will dominate the consumer electronics of the 2010s the way Microsoft dominated the 1990s and 2000s.


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## kirthew (Sep 21, 2006)

I find this funny... that is was written by a network (CNN) that quickly was dominated by two rivals... and had to move towards a political side to be in the lime light again...

As far as Microsoft being in the past... they are releasing a device that requires nothing to use... the Kinetic is amazing... unlike the Playstation Move and the Wii... where you have to hold something to use... The Kinetic you just move your hands or your feet or you dance... you jump to jump... you lean to the left to turn... You put your hands into a fist and simulate driving... As a person that has actually used it... it blew me away... and not just me... it blew away everyone else that played with it...

The Playstation Move... was like holding a clunky controller that I could not get to work... The Wii... you flick your wrist to get motion... 

I think once Ballmer gets removed... Microsoft will all of a sudden become 'relavent' again in the eyes of CNNMoney.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

Yes microsoft is dying. Windows has lost market share over the past year. While Mac has hit double digits for the first time in more then 15 years.
according to the last market share report IDC says mac is 10.6 AND Gartner says 10.4%

You see to know where MS is going you have to know where they have been. MS only got to where they are by smoke and mirrors and lots of marketing. 
Windows came about due to a spineless sugar-water salesman, that gave away Apple's crown jewels to MS.
The reality is that Microsoft did steal from the Mac, but that the company had what amounted to a license from Apple to do so.

Microsoft shipped Windows on November 20 [1985], and two days later during Fall COMDEX (a huge industry trade show) in Las Vegas, Gates and Sculley signed a confidential, three-page agreement that granted Microsoft a "non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, nontransferable license to use these derivative works in present and future software programs, and to license them to and through third parties for use in their software programs." In other words, Apple got Microsoft's commitment to upgrade Word for Macintosh, delay Excel for Windows until October 1, 1986, plus an acknowledgement that "the visual displays in [Excel, Windows, Word, and Multiplan] are derivative works of the visual displays generated by Apple's Lisa and Macintosh graphic user interface programs." In other words, Microsoft got Apple's crown jewels, and Apple got shafted.

Apple thought that the above mentioned license covered Windows 1.0, and Windows 1.0 only, while Microsoft said "Nuh-uh." Apple sued Microsoft in 1988 when Windows 2.0.3 included things like icons (something Windows 1.0 lacked), and Microsoft's defense was that license agreement.

MS has copied their way to the top. But now they are slowly loosing that footing. Vista was a horrible dud. KIN was a failure, surface, and many more. They only got to where they are because 1 the head of Apple and guys in decision at Apple at the time windows came out laughed at it thought it was no threat and were not even going to bother trying to compete.
had they saw what windows was going to be they might have worked harder and of course SCully head of apple at the time thought that because the Mac was supperior he could market it for more then twice the original price that it was supposed to cost. At 2500 it made inroads but had it been priced closer to the original set price of 1500 then many things would have gone different.

But anyway i think MS is just not what they once were. Balmer is a salesman not a CEO. They do well in the enterprise market but even there slowly Apple is gaining ground. Will MS die? NO but i can bet in 10 years they will be about as revelent as IBM


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Marlin Guy said:


> I think the point that most are missing is that the world seems to be on the cusp of moving away from personal computers and towards more portable and personal devices.
> I've only had my Android phone for a few months, but already it has stolen about 30% of face time from my PC.
> 
> MS can stay focused on PC's and x-Boxes if they want to, but that is definitely not where the market is headed.


I don't know about the world. But many of us do use such devices more frequently than before. But they don't replace my computer. Convenience is fine, but I'm not going to keep books on my iPad or, if I had one, Android phone.

Everything has it's place.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

I'll always stay with Microsoft. There's no place like 127.0.0.1.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

phrelin said:


> Convenience is fine, but I'm not going to keep books on my iPad or, if I had one, Android phone.
> 
> Everything has it's place.


To the cloud.
If not yours, then certainly the books of your heirs will live there.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

ibooksrule said:


> ... plus an acknowledgement that "the visual displays in [Excel, Windows, Word, and Multiplan] are derivative works of the visual displays generated by Apple's Lisa and Macintosh graphic user interface programs." In other words, Microsoft got Apple's crown jewels, and Apple got shafted.
> 
> Apple thought that the above mentioned license covered Windows 1.0, and Windows 1.0 only, while Microsoft said "Nuh-uh." Apple sued Microsoft in 1988 when Windows 2.0.3 included things like icons (something Windows 1.0 lacked), and Microsoft's defense was that license agreement.
> 
> ...


It's not like Apple invented the GUI either, or things like the mouse. Vista had issues sure, but I don't know it qualifies as a dud. Windows ME was more of one, and not their first dud OS. Vista's issues were more third party problems than anything.

I don't see Apple making serious ground the Enterprise. How many real Enterprise level solutions does Apple make? The iPhone is becoming popular, but in reality it, without some fairly pricey third party solutions, pretty much sucks for Enterprise.

Microsoft as relevant as IBM in 10 years? That would mean that, in the PC industry, that they would completely exit the market. IBM, as far as I know, doesn't make desktops anymore. They sold the Thinkpad to Lenovo, and their hard drive business to Hitachi. Consumers and businesses are not going to switch over to Linux, Unix or Mac.

A Google/Apple smartphone or tablet/iPad will not completely replace the PC. Microsoft will still be relevant in 10 years.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

dpeters11 said:


> Vista had issues sure, but I don't know it qualifies as a dud.


When the first service pack replaces the kernel, yeah, it qualifies.:lol:


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Grentz said:


> Microsoft Dynamics is another, even though it is software. But it is not consumer based at all (it is a business CRM).


Even with the large and substantially overlapping family of acquired Dynamics products (not just CRM but ERP and other disciplines), the competitive products from above and below are putting a lot of competitive pressure on Microsoft. Especially in that CRM discipline, the database companies like SAP and Oracle are deeply entrenched and they don't require changing development platforms like some would change hairstyles.

Microsoft is coming across as somewhere in the middle and people right now are either buying the best or the cheapest and they don't offer either.

If Microsoft doesn't give up on the command ribbon metaphor, I predict they will marginalize themselves within five or six years.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

...and yet I know of at least 2 Fortune 500 companies that are spending hundreds of Millions using only the Microsoft platforms for various products...because it simply is the industry standard and the only one accepted in numerous business product communities. 

No chance in heck of Unix, Apple OS, or other platform being considered whatsoever in those arenas. People don't want to reinvent the wheel to have to totally re-train thousands of people in another technology, operating system, or platform. In addition, things like MS Web Services have been adopted by hundreds of companies I personally know of in my own business interactions, and that integration connectivity also won't be changing for some time into the future.

Love them or not - they have a strong foothold in corporate America, with the exception of any artsy-fartsy graphics-oriented industries where Apple plays more heavily.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Honestly, I haven't found a better solution than Exchange and Outlook for our email and calendaring systems. OpenOffice (or LibreOffice) isn't really an option to replace MS Office either. 

We're in the process of moving from Netware to an entirely MS/AD setup on our campus and except for a few growing pains, we're plenty happy with what we're getting, and that's not going to change anytime soon.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> People don't want to reinvent the wheel to have to totally re-train thousands of people in another technology, operating system, or platform. In addition, things like MS Web Services have been adopted by hundreds of companies I personally know of in my own business interactions, and that integration connectivity also won't be changing for some time into the future.


Given that just about everything Microsoft does represents a paradigm shift every couple versions to such an extent that nobody using the older version would recognize the current version, I'm betting that re-training is part of the program anyway.

Think of all the format changes and platform changes that have been required with ongoing versions that were substantially change for the sake of change. The changes required by court order are cardinal sins. Throwing consumptive technologies like ZIP compression and XML are not technological advances; they're just something that makes it harder to recover files. The new technologies create significant difficulties in sharing files with partner companies and provide proof that previous attempts at technologies were insufficient or outright failures.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

RasputinAXP said:


> Honestly, I haven't found a better solution than Exchange and Outlook for our email and calendaring systems.


They're out there. Many consider Lotus Notes with Lotus Domino a far superior solution. Exchange is the most cantankerous piece of technology I've ever seen. See more at "winmail.dat".

For the zero-budget minded, consider Thunderbird with Lightning that work with such time honored technologies as Courier (IMAP or SMTP/POP3) and FTP servers that come in the box with most complete Linux distros. These solutions don't require any special clients to work with most PDAs, iPods or smart phones.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

harsh said:


> They're out there. Many consider Lotus Notes with Lotus Domino a far superior solution. Exchange is the most cantankerous piece of technology I've ever seen. See more at "winmail.dat".
> 
> For the zero-budget minded, consider Thunderbird with Lightning that work with such time honored technologies as Courier (IMAP or SMTP/POP3) and FTP servers that come in the box with most complete Linux distros. These solutions don't require any special clients to work with most PDAs, iPods or smart phones.


Lotus? never. They can't pay us enough.

We used to run vanilla POP/IMAP services but we needed everything integrated, because the bosses said so. We ran Novell Groupwise for a while but that became untenable when they dropped the Mac client.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

Marlin Guy said:


> When the first service pack replaces the kernel, yeah, it qualifies.:lol:


By the thought process - any OS qualifies, you see the nice security hole in linux that was reported the 25th by US-CERT?


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

harsh said:


> They're out there. Many consider Lotus Notes with Lotus Domino a far superior solution. Exchange is the most cantankerous piece of technology I've ever seen. See more at "winmail.dat".
> 
> For the zero-budget minded, consider Thunderbird with Lightning that work with such time honored technologies as Courier (IMAP or SMTP/POP3) and FTP servers that come in the box with most complete Linux distros. These solutions don't require any special clients to work with most PDAs, iPods or smart phones.


What was the last version of Exchange you tried? 2007/2010 are light years ahead


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

wingrider01 said:


> What was the last version of Exchange you tried? 2007/2010 are light years ahead


I had to jump off when SharePoint came online.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

harsh said:


> They're out there. *Many consider Lotus Notes with Lotus Domino a far superior solution*. Exchange is the most cantankerous piece of technology I've ever seen. See more at "winmail.dat".


!rolling !rolling !rolling

Many who know little about enterprise software maybe...that pretty much sums up the hundreds of folks I know and their views of those products and how they work. Garbage with a capital G - operationally, ease of use, support, and reliability. Plllleeeeease.....


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

Since Apple has struck a deal with Unisys to help expand its corporate and government footprint I believe we will start seeing more macs in the enterprise. Bloomberg reported the other day that companies such as SAS, mercedes benz and wells Fargo among others have adopted the ipad already and many have adopted iphones. 

My mom works at a large hospital in Iowa and I know she said recreantly they adapted iphones for all the DRs which usually had BB before. Its a Dr owned hospital and i know they use unix for the hospital main frame. While they do use windows for the pc side but in time that will change too. But then what do you expect most of the pcs they have still use win 95 and win 98 only the IT people and a few of the DRs computers are win xp. Which is sad they are still using windows 95. A 10 yr old OS. My mom says its really slow but they have not decided what they want to upgrade to yet. 

The other hospital she worked at a few years ago they were the same way. But were slowly changing people over to newer computers and were giving managers and DRs choices as to what they wanted to use as long as it could connect to the mainframe. 

For enterprise if a decade old OS works they will keep it done matter if its as slow as molasses. 
What i meant about MS being as relevant as IBM is not that windows won't be around its that at one time IBM was big brother and was the biggest pc out there. MS may be there today but you can bet as time goes on there market share in the consumer space will decrease and it will become not a 89% vs 10% it will be more like 50/50. 

Did you just see Apple just beat ms in total revenue for the first time this last quarter by over 4 billion. I bet some chairs were thrown today at MS by balmer.


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## kiknwing (Jun 24, 2009)

ibooksrule said:


> ...
> Did you just see Apple just beat ms in total revenue for the first time this last quarter by over 4 billion. I bet some chairs were thrown today at MS by balmer.


I would take higher profit then revenue any day. 
Apple net profit: $4.31 billion
Microsoft net profit: $5.41 billion


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

"kiknwing" said:


> I would take higher profit then revenue any day.
> Apple net profit: $4.31 billion
> Microsoft net profit: $5.41 billion


Microsoft's bread and butter is software, with low manufacturing costs (packaging and DVDs, if not downloaded outright).

So OF COURSE their margins are higher than a company whose main product is hardware!

And Yes, profits are what count, not margin. However, it's not just any old profit, it's FUTURE profit expectations. That's what a market cap represents, and the market expects Apple's future profit stream to be more valuable than Microsoft's. Also how long before Apple's profit exceeds Microsoft's?
I would bet within 4 months Apple becomes the most valuable company by market cap. Right now they are not far away from it. At current growth they will surpass exon.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

ibooksrule said:


> Microsoft's bread and butter is software, with low manufacturing costs (packaging and DVDs, if not downloaded outright).
> 
> So OF COURSE their margins are higher than a company whose main product is hardware!
> 
> ...


You've got to be kidding. Exxon is your comparison?

Apple's future profit stream is going to come from what - people buying slightly better iPods, iPads, iPhones and Apple TV units? The market is already saturating with tablets, smart phones, a internet TV units including theirs. To keep producing profits at that level they will have to produce the next big gadget ahead of anyone else.

Yes, my wife and I are a PC family who bought a couple of iPads. As I've stated in threads here repeatedly, it does what it does very well. It isn't a computer, which is essential to our personal economic well-being.

Here's the curve as noted in a Reuters article:


> Microsoft Corp beat Wall Street's expectations with a 51 percent jump in quarterly profit, as higher sales of its flagship Windows and Office software knocked down fears Apple Inc's iPad would take a bite out of its main business.


I hope that Apple continues to be very successful. But fundamentally we have to start recognizing that Microsoft, Apple and Exxon each find success in different markets. I'm not going to judge Exxon's success or failure if some fool in their organization has them come out with a smart phone that doesn't sell. And I feel the same way about Microsoft.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

Apple according to what they have said they have other things on the horizon.
MS main claim to better profit is because previously VISTA was a failure. While Win 7 has done better but as more and more people buy Macs at some point MS has to either come up with something different or fail. They cant go any higher with windows and office. So unless they come up with something better which is hard to say as they are not a hardware company and they are not known to exactly have the latest hot thing. Xbox 360 yes but they also lost billions on it in order to make it successful. While Nintendo made money from the get go on the Wii. 

The issue i have with MS is they dont innovate. They seem to be more concerned with getting people to upgrade office and windows rather then R&D to find out some new gadget or something to compete with. As we saw with KIN and ZUNE they did not really go anywhere. Even Bing has not only came at a loss to their business partner Yahoo rather then taking share away from the one they wanted Google. 

I dont like Google while i like using Google search i also use others. But i do not like that Google keeps way to much info on people. 
I have no problem with MS if they would just do something on their own. I have always hated that they took advantage of the contract with Apple and stole the OS. Of course they lied to get the contract. But then i have to blame Apple too because they were idiots to think Ms would not take advantage of this.

I think APple should have switched to Intel years ago because it would have helped them in their sales further back. I also find windows such a pain. And yes i have used every major version of win even win 3.1. Mac Os just seems to get better and better. Win 7 is much better then it has been but still underneath it still has many flaws. 1 is they cant break free from the legacy code. They need to do what Apple did and do a complete rewrite and leave the old behind.

Will MS do that? I think on the consumer side they would more so but enterprise they dont want to upset anyone. May steve Balmer remain CEO forever


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Zune didn't go anywhere?
Let's see - They have Zune HD, you can rent movies for the Zune, Zune Pass, Zune on Windows 7 Phone.

EVERYBODY I've showed my Zune to likes them better than their beloved iPods. 

Plus, the Zune PC software is light years ahead of iTunes (worst piece of junk I've used since Prodigy)

Get real...


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

harsh said:


> I had to jump off when SharePoint came online.


So that would be exchange 5.5 or 2000 maybe 2003 - no comparision anymore


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## kiknwing (Jun 24, 2009)

ibooksrule said:


> The issue i have with MS is they dont innovate. They seem to be more concerned with getting people to upgrade office and windows rather then R&D to find out some new gadget or something to compete with. As we saw with KIN and ZUNE they did not really go anywhere. Even Bing has not only came at a loss to their business partner Yahoo rather then taking share away from the one they wanted Google.


Here is an example of how MS innovates. They provide developers the best tools around: Visual Studio. Nothing is close to that development power on any platform. So just because the innovation is not right in front of you, it does not mean that nothing is being done. They give the innovation power to the developer. You may not like google but that is where the competition is for both apple and microsoft. Take chrome for example, it pushed both microsoft and apple to make their browsers better. Or even better is android, made microsoft re-design their mobile OS making it better and it gave steve jobs something to compete with. Windows 7 phone IMO is the best operating system right now and that's because it integrates all of microsofts key areas: Office, Zune, Xbox. No other phone has something close to that.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Zune didn't go anywhere?
> Let's see - They have Zune HD, you can rent movies for the Zune, Zune Pass, Zune on Windows 7 Phone.
> 
> EVERYBODY I've showed my Zune to likes them better than their beloved iPods.
> ...


I agree with you on some of this. I like the idea of the Zune Pass, and iTunes is horrible. But honestly, I don't think many people have a Zune compared to an iPod/iPhone. At one point, I believe they had about 9% of the market compared to 63% for Apple. So in that sense, it really didn't go anywhere.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

dpeters11 said:


> I agree with you on some of this. I like the idea of the Zune Pass, and iTunes is horrible. But honestly, I don't think many people have a Zune compared to an iPod/iPhone. At one point, I believe they had about 9% of the market compared to 63% for Apple. So in that sense, it really didn't go anywhere.


That's the problem with emulating rather than innovating.
MS has slipped into a rut of letting others prove the market and then jumping in and trying to catch the wave after it's already gone by.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

Marlin Guy said:


> _*NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Consumers have turned their backs on Microsoft. A company that once symbolized the future is now living in the past.
> *
> Microsoft has been late to the game in crucial modern technologies like mobile, search, media, gaming and tablets. It has even fallen behind in Web browsing, a market it once ruled with an iron fist._
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/27/technology/microsoft_pdc/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=T2


Being the first out the door with a new product is not always the wisest thing to do. Second generations products are often ten times better.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

I can't see anything from Apple in my future. I work on computers every day. The only Apple products that I know of in the family are a regular Ipod and a Nano, Why? Because my brother won them in drawings at his union hall meetings. I run Win7 Pro at home, XP Pro at work.

My PCs I am always reconfiguring them, Home and work. I have a Lian-Li Aluminium case. IT has had many processors and motherboards from a Athlon 700Mhz through P4, Athon Dual core and up. I'm not a fan of anything where you have to start over everytime you need/want more performance. Working with Video is my hobby. The more speed the faster it gets done. My I7 920 isn't fast enough for me, it was what I could afford.

IMHO a phone should do one thing, Phone calls. A camera should take photos. A movie camera should take videos, etc.

I don't see Apple taking over. Microsoft will keep working until they get it right.

Access was also the name of a communications program from Microsoft, meant to compete with ProComm and other programs. This proved a failure and was dropped. Years later, Microsoft reused the name for its database software.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

Microsoft zune sucks. Why would someone want a zune over an iPod? Nrver heard anyone say oh wow i want a zune. 
The zune you say is integrated with all that stuff well what do you think the iPod does? My ipod and iPhone are integrated with all things. Plus when I go to the gym i can plug in my iPod to the equipment and it will allow me to watch videos on the larger screen or control my iPod through it plus i cN record all my workout data. 
I have yet to see Anyone with a zune. That is why Target quit selling them. Zune was an after thought. After apple had success with the iPod touch. 

Microsoft does not innovate. They follow everyone else. The win 7 phone is horrible. Why would anyone want an interface where half the word is cut off on the phone? Its basically the same interface as the kin. 
I always love when people say oh i showed my windows pc to a Mac user and they loved it or I showed my zune to an iPod user and they loved it. Thats just crazy. People buy an ipod because they want an iPod. Because of the all the apps games and so forth. Just like nintendo said it is not Microsoft they are worried about damaging their game sales its Apple that has eroded their game sales thus far. They buy mac to be virus free and to have something that just works and works well. 
If building your own pc is worth having to put up with windows and all its problems then go ahead.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

"TBoneit" said:


> I can't see anything from Apple in my future. I work on computers every day. The only Apple products that I know of in the family are a regular Ipod and a Nano, Why? Because my brother won them in drawings at his union hall meetings. I run Win7 Pro at home, XP Pro at work.
> 
> My PCs I am always reconfiguring them, Home and work. I have a Lian-Li Aluminium case. IT has had many processors and motherboards from a Athlon 700Mhz through P4, Athon Dual core and up. I'm not a fan of anything where you have to start over everytime you need/want more performance. Working with Video is my hobby. The more speed the faster it gets done. My I7 920 isn't fast enough for me, it was what I could afford.
> 
> ...


I do agree with you on the camera thing although here are many times i find myself somewhere without a camera and i have wanted to take a pic. Thhe other night for instance i was at the back to the future 25th anniversary event and when i came out of the movie they had the delorian out front you could take a pictu with and sure i did not have a camera and i was able to get someone to snap me with it on my iphone.

Yea thats the issue while Apple is out there making tons of money and doing it right microsoft is falling behind all the time. Now its not just apple they have to compete with its Google and microsoft is loosing ground all the time. Do you think that they would ever have thought the day that not only eould they lose the smart phone battle to Apple but that their mp3 player meant to beat the ipod failed. I mean failed because yes it did. They have not had an update to the original hd in over a year. There are very few apps for it. I mean why would you buy one? If you just want something to listen to music on get a cheap player or a ipod shuffle or nano. Or sandisk. Why a zune?

At any rate microsoft is only where they are buy pure dumb luck. Had the original guy who was supposed to show up and help IBM get into the pc market therre would be no windows today. Had steve jobs never been kicked out of apple he would never had allowed microsoft to have access to the guy features in the mac which would have hurt windows. 
Had john scully not priced the original Mac at over 1500 higher then they were originally going to sell it at it eould have been a bigger success and then thereby microsoft had a harder time getting sales.

They have never had the failures they have had in the last 5 years. Xbox, xbox 360 while sold well lost them billions to do so, zune, kin, vista.

Each his own in the end but in 5 years we will come back and see.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Vista made them money hand over fist. The 360's been profitable for years, and is an even greater success in terms of raw mindshare and publicity.

I think maybe it's time to close this thread, because honestly if anyone thinks Microsoft is going anywhere in 5 years, they've got a healthy disregard for facts.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

RasputinAXP said:


> Vista made them money hand over fist. The 360's been profitable for years, and is an even greater success in terms of raw mindshare and publicity.
> 
> I think maybe it's time to close this thread, because honestly if anyone thinks Microsoft is going anywhere in 5 years, they've got a healthy disregard for facts.


Yup.

Office 2007 and now 2010 have been selling beyond original forecasts, and WIN7 has been selling very well and proven to be one of the best OS's that Microsoft has produced to date. Any forecast of their demise is a gross lack of reality.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Drucifer said:


> Second generations products are often ten times better.


As the iPod has so aptly demonstrated, technological superiority is no match for mindshare.

As with the Mac, if there isn't a comprehensive range of of software to go with, there's little point to all of the technology.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

kiknwing said:


> They give the innovation power to the developer.


If the developer has all this power to enable programmers, why do they (the programmers and Microsoft themselves) produce such awful software? Visual studio exists largely to make up for serious deficiencies in the conventional tools.

I think the users of Delphi might disagree about what enables programmers to be great.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

Vista was still a failure in terms of allot of things. It was a blunder and ms took allot of heat. Sure ms will be around what they are doing depends if Balmer is running the show or a real CEO. 

Look at what happened to Apple in the 90s without a real CEO. Now Steve came back and they are growing and turning record profits and hardware people want. 

I never understand people and defending ms they are an evil Corp and if I had to live using medicore software that was subject to hundreds of thousands of viruses and didn't work right half the time I'd die. 

For the xbox In July of 2007, Microsoft publicly acknowledged the so-called "Red Ring of Death" issue and took a corresponding financial hit of more than $1 billion to fix it. Prior to that acknowledgement, Takahashi reports that Microsoft had taken returns on 1.2 million of the roughly 11.6 million shipped Xbox 360s. However, the problems responsible for that return rate had been around since before the console hit shelves. At the time, 68 of every 100 Xbox 360s made by Microsoft's Chinese manufacturing partners were coming off the line nonfunctional. Worse still, when the first batch of the system's three-core CPUs rolled off the line, only 16 percent worked.

I
The Wii is the top selling hardware. The xbox shows higher only when you look at total shipments which some have accused ms of channel stuffing


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Actually the Zune gets fantastic reviews for the main purpose it (and iPods) was meant to serve - a music player. I have a Touch and can tell you that, particulalry with a set of high-quality headphones, the Zune sounds better as I have tested them side by side. It is true the Zune lacks the "I have an iPod so I'm cool" factor and doesn't connect to every thing from tredmills to toasters so it lacks some key things an iPod can do, but audio performance is superior.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

This topic reminded me of a blog my buddy sent me. It's from 2008, but it's still has some great humor about Apple fanboys. Warning: There is some foul language. http://koew.net/307



> *What do you got against the fanboys?*
> 
> Nothing and everything at all. I'm tired of hearing them blabbering about ohh-how-great Apple is. I don't care and that's why I get annoyed when they (fanboys) try to push it unto you with great force and sweating excitation.
> 
> I've seen a lot of people wearing the *Think Different *t-shirts, and I've one thing and one thing only to say to you: Yes, I do think different. That's why I don't go around advertising for a company that makes zombies out of customers.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

"bobukcat" said:


> Actually the Zune gets fantastic reviews for the main purpose it (and iPods) was meant to serve - a music player. I have a Touch and can tell you that, particulalry with a set of high-quality headphones, the Zune sounds better as I have tested them side by side. It is true the Zune lacks the "I have an iPod so I'm cool" factor and doesn't connect to every thing from tredmills to toasters so it lacks some key things an iPod can do, but audio performance is superior.


You might be right i don't know i use my ear buds with mine. Actually I use an iPhone as my iPod at the gym because then I have my phone in case the baby-sitter calls which she usually does when she can't figure out how to work the tv or something.

But I could care less about the best audio quality. Now for my home surround that is different but just for listening when at the gym or on a plane I just want some music. I like the whole iTunes iPod iPad iPhone Eco system as well. 
And I'm not saying some things MS does doesn't get good reviews heck apple when the Mac os came out had awesome reviews it was light years ahead of dos but reviews don't always turn to market share.

Also I have to say yea MS will survive because to many people don't know Mac is different I have people I know who think it's just a name of a computer like Sony or HP. That and I know many people and this is really sad that think because they use an HP or Dell at work they go buy that brand because they think they won't know how to use a Sony or some generic pc. I tried to help 1 guy understand that but he said no I don't have time to learn a new Windows and new computer so he bought the same model Dell he uses at work. 
So yes for that factor because people just are not that smart sometimes ms will continue to be around.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

"sigma1914" said:


> This topic reminded me of a blog my buddy sent me. It's from 2008, but it's still has some great humor about Apple fanboys. Warning: There is some foul language. http://koew.net/307


No zombies here I love my Mac it looks nice it works great I have never had an issue with it. Ms guys are worse you go around trying to make fun of apple yet people love apple products. More windows people use apple products then you think. 
Apple products are always sleek and sexy and people always love how they look. I know more people who know what an iPad is who don't know the first thing about computers. Apple makes great products. Why is wrong with loving a computer. I know people who swear by BMW or some other brand yet no one calls them zombies?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

ibooksrule said:


> No zombies here I love my Mac it looks nice it works great I have never had an issue with it. Ms guys are worse you go around trying to make fun of apple yet people love apple products. More windows people use apple products then you think.
> Apple products are always sleek and sexy and people always love how they look. I know more people who know what an iPad is who don't know the first thing about computers. Apple makes great products. Why is wrong with loving a computer. I know people who swear by BMW or some other brand yet no one calls them zombies?


:lol: You just reinforced that site's rant. :lol:


> What do you got against the fanboys?
> 
> Nothing and everything at all. I'm tired of hearing them blabbering about ohh-how-great Apple is. I don't care and that's why I get annoyed when they (fanboys) try to push it unto you with great force and sweating excitation.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

The new Macbook Air is an underpowered, overpriced piece of crap.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

RasputinAXP said:


> The new Macbook Air is an underpowered, overpriced piece of crap.


But it's so pretty & thin...and a Mac! :lol:


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

RasputinAXP said:


> The new Macbook Air is an underpowered, overpriced piece of crap.





sigma1914 said:


> But it's so pretty & thin...and a Mac! :lol:


True! Even Steve Jobs would've hated it at the beginning of the year!

http://gizmodo.com/5669701/a-note-from-january-steve-jobs-to-october-steve-jobs


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

RasputinAXP said:


> True! Even Steve Jobs would've hated it at the beginning of the year!
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/5669701/a-note-from-january-steve-jobs-to-october-steve-jobs


So, his new $999 to $1,599 Macbook Airs are not better at anything, they're just cheap? :lol::lol:


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## Mikemok1981 (Jul 9, 2009)

Have you guys seen the new Macbook Clear? It will revolutionize the world with its magic.

satiritron.com


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

"RasputinAXP" said:


> True! Even Steve Jobs would've hated it at the beginning of the year!
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/5669701/a-note-from-january-steve-jobs-to-october-steve-jobs


It not under powered people love it. Have you not seen reviews everywhere. If it's underpowered what the heck is a netbook and all the crappy pc laptops running Amd and cheap intel processors. At least the MacBook air is not integrated graphics.

You use your junk I'll use my Mac. I'm not pushing you to use a Mac if you want to use a virus malware infected junk pile by all means go ahead. I have used windows before it's a pain to use. I never like using an os made by one company while i have to get hardware from someone else. Your always going to find better support and better compaitablity when the same company makes thehardware and software


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

ibooksrule said:


> ...I have used windows before it's a pain to use...


Yeah, moving a mouse and clicking is such a pain.  Thank God that Jesus errr I mean Jobs has alleviated that pain. Oh, wait...you mean I have to move a mouse and click with a Mac too? Well, at least I'll pay more to do it.


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## Mikemok1981 (Jul 9, 2009)

ibooksrule said:


> No zombies here I love my Mac it looks nice it works great I have never had an issue with it. *Ms guys are worse you go around trying to make fun of apple yet people love apple products*. More windows people use apple products then you think.
> Apple products are always sleek and sexy and people always love how they look. I know more people who know what an iPad is who don't know the first thing about computers. Apple makes great products. Why is wrong with loving a computer. I know people who swear by BMW or some other brand yet no one calls them zombies?


So when Mac people make fun of MS people its ok because what you're really doing is enlightening them?

Honestly I think fanboys on both sides are going the wrong way about it. Use a product because its good and it operates the way you want. Not because its sleek and sexy, or because everyone else uses it. Windows 7 is a good product, Snow Leopard is a good product. The difference between the two is marginal. It all comes down useability and preference.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

ibooksrule said:


> It not under powered people love it. Have you not seen reviews everywhere. If it's underpowered what the heck is a netbook and all the crappy pc laptops running Amd and cheap intel processors. At least the MacBook air is not integrated graphics.
> 
> You use your junk I'll use my Mac. I'm not pushing you to use a Mac if you want to use a virus malware infected junk pile by all means go ahead. I have used windows before it's a pain to use. I never like using an os made by one company while i have to get hardware from someone else. Your always going to find better support and better compaitablity when the same company makes thehardware and software


Again, you're not actually up on the technical side of what's going on, so I'll further enlighten you.

The new MacBook Air is still running a Core 2 Duo processor. Nearly all of the other manufacturers have transitioned their laptops to the i3/5/7 line of processors, which is the current generation.

In addition, you have to choose right off the bat: 2 or 4GB of RAM? It's hard-soldered into the motherboard. No way to upgrade it after you've chosen. In my experience even 2GB of RAM isn't enough on 10.5.

The other netbooks that use pretty solid Intel Atom dual cores start at around $299, not $999.

Seriously, why are you even trying to have this fight? You're better off grabbing a nice 10" netbook with a dual core atom and making a Hackintosh out of it.

Oh, but you don't care about anything but the design and the Kool-Aid they slip into your package. Never mind.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

sigma1914 said:


> So, his new $999 to $1,599 Macbook Airs are not better at anything, they're just cheap? :lol::lol:


Does it come with a fold-able screen?


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

"RasputinAXP" said:


> Again, you're not actually up on the technical side of what's going on, so I'll further enlighten you.
> 
> The new MacBook Air is still running a Core 2 Duo processor. Nearly all of the other manufacturers have transitioned their laptops to the i3/5/7 line of processors, which is the current generation.
> 
> ...


Why would i want to use a netbook. I want something that comes with Mac installed why would I want a junky looking netbook? If I wanted to hack it then why buy it? 
I think the MacBook air has issues yes but it's not for everyone either. I would not use it but I think it would be great for my mom.

I like a computer to look nice it shows that effort went into making it why is wrong with that? 
Why make fun of someone because unlike you we don't want to settle for rn in the mill computer we want something that looks like someone actually put effort into the design.

And yes windows is harder to use. Always has been win7 is just a nicer looking graphics but otherwise it's still windows. Saying all you do is click a mouse is not all there is to it.

What is with the kook aid thing? I never got that look apple makes some awesome products they also screw up sometimes. And when they do many people myself included are there to let them know hey this is messed up


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

ibooksrule said:


> At any rate microsoft is only where they are buy pure dumb luck.


I'll agree that luck had something to do with Microsoft when they started, but they didn't get to where they are now based on just luck. I'm pretty sure they'll still be around in five years.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

ibooksrule - Thanks for sharing your ideas, but I'm really not sure what you're trying to express.

Personally, I abhor the Mac OS. All glitz and little real horsepower. I know that I'd never run a company on Macs (we'll let those Marketing folks use them because, well, they're Marketing people  )


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

"wilbur_the_goose" said:


> ibooksrule - Thanks for sharing your ideas, but I'm really not sure what you're trying to express.
> 
> Personally, I abhor the Mac OS. All glitz and little real horsepower. I know that I'd never run a company on Macs (we'll let those Marketing folks use them because, well, they're Marketing people  )


I have much more power then windows because I don't have malware and virus protection bogging down my system. That and I'm running the same processor and everything you would be other then Mac runs much leaner then windows. 
Houbara no idea what your talking about if you think macs have no horsepower. Where do you think windows comes from? That and windows has so much legacy code still in there that it is so bloated.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

ibooksrule said:


> I have much more power then windows because I don't have malware and virus protection bogging down my system. That and I'm running the same processor and everything you would be other then Mac runs much leaner then windows.
> Houbara no idea what your talking about if you think macs have no horsepower. Where do you think windows comes from? That and windows has so much legacy code still in there that it is so bloated.


I'm having a problem engaging you in this latest discussion. I have an iPad. I use the Kindle App because I think iBooks is a weak and generally expensive offering.

But I'll try. Many in my family use macs. They have sufficient horsepower and seem like fine computers. I can't use them because much of the software we use requires a Windows environment. I also don't use them as they generally cost 50% more than comparable PC's.

Windows does have its problems.

But you advocate iBooks?:grin:


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

phrelin said:


> I'm having a problem engaging you in this latest discussion. I have an iPad. I use the Kindle App because I think iBooks is a weak and generally expensive offering.
> 
> But I'll try. Many in my family use macs. They have sufficient horsepower and seem like fine computers. I can't use them because much of the software we use requires a Windows environment. I also don't use them as they generally cost 50% more than comparable PC's.
> 
> ...


Ibook was the computer i had at the time when i started on this site. the ibook is no longer and since the switch to intel is now called Macbook and then the Macbook pro.

I have heard the price thing over and over and it fails to warrant anything. With the general upkeep, virus software, malware software and then monthly updates for the software and time spent keeping the computer working Mac becomes so much cheaper. And you cant compare a Dell to a Mac. Dell makes no money and like some PC companies they are just getting by. I bet they would love to have 50 billion in the bank like Apple.

But when you make cheap knock off hardware for pennies and you try to compete in the sub $1000 range you dont make money.
I have seen comparisons showing Macs are no more expensive then most PCs when you add in the added cost and so forth and compare against the same range.

at any rate i dont care if it cost more to know that my computer is secure it does everything i could want it to do and it does it with style and ease and it works like i think it should not backwords and i can get more done then heck yes its worth every dime. PLus as someone pointed out Dell and some of the other PC companies cant keep this up selling computers for pennies on the dollar above what it cost them to make. At some point something has to give.

I have yet to find anything i cant run on the mac. Back when it was a PowerPC yes but now i can run windows software better and faster then most PCs because i dont have to worry about all the bloated extras that normally bog down PCs.

As we see every quarter Apple is increasing their marketshare and microsoft is not. Some people seem to think they must use windows to stay afloat but more and more are finding ways around it and moving towards Macs.
Hey everyone has their preference if we did not it would be a very boring world everyone would work at Burger King and we would all have the exact same house, car and everything.

But when you say Macs dont have horsepower my quad core imac is as fast as anything in the PC market. And it takes up much less space on my desk. The Mac Pro is used by tons of movie companies running FCP. Infact Final CUt Pro is the standard in movie making. While some still use other brands of software Apple has made a name for itself in that industry.

Many companies use Unix as thier servers and hmm what is the MAC OS run on top of? Unix. Unix is still the most secure OS out there.

At any rate i know how PCs work. I have a mother in law and her fiance have a dell laptop. And they are always calling me saying its running slow or its doing this or that and many times its the virus program slowing things down or it got some virus or worm or something. Nothing major yet. It ran decent at first but the longer they have it the slower it seems to run. Besides the fact the same 15in laptop they have from dell weighs more and is much bulkier then my Macbook Pro unibody.

But hey keep up using your windows keep MS in business because competition is good. it keeps everyone working harder. Although i think Apple does the more this is what people will want and makes it (ipod, ipad) where MS plays catch up with win 7 Phones that are missing more features then the original iphone did. They did plays for sure and it didnt do well so they did the zune. The zune has not sold well and again it was an after thought.

I hate that. Oh and i cant stand Balmer. He is like an iddiot on stage and jumps around looking like a monkeyboy. His interviews are all over the place and sometimes im thinking what did he just say? Steve Jobs is a showman he gets on stage and he has that something about him that people even outside of Apple even Apple haters admit steve jobs is a showman and is great on stage. Bill gates is much better still a thief but at least a better talker.

I think part of MS issues is their marketing. They have had so many failed marketing commericals lately its not even funny. Then they run out and copy almost identical floor plan to the Apple stores and say look what we did. Theyn they open ones right across the mall or down the corridor from an Apple store. Its like Ok Apple did it this way so we should do it as well and we will have success.

Anyway i got way of subject here so sorry about that.
I think i made the point i wanted and will leave it at that.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Microsoft a Dying Brand?

iLaugh.


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## Mikemok1981 (Jul 9, 2009)

ibooksrule said:


> Oh and i cant stand Balmer. He is like an iddiot on stage and jumps around looking like a monkeyboy. His interviews are all over the place and sometimes im thinking what did he just say?


If this is the only reason you hate Ballmer then you havent been paying enough attention. I actually like Microsoft products but this guy is running the place into the ground. He cans the most innovative people and perpetually stays behind the curve. And projects that could be a front runner in new fields he holds back, Im looking at you Microsoft Courier.

From the way you describe him I think you've only seen that stupid youtube video of him at the Microsoft keynote, or the one about the best Ballmer moments. Do some research, you'll either hate him more or love him more for looking like he's intentionally trying to scuttle Microsoft.

Bring Gates back please.


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