# DirecTV's DVRs run into snags



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

"*The interface is not intuitive*"

By David Lieberman, USA TODAY

NEW YORK - DirecTV appears to have hit some speed bumps with the rollout of its new digital video recorder - one of the company's most important initiatives.

Following at least dozens of consumer complaints to the company and on Internet sites about sluggish and occasionally idiosyncratic performance, DirecTV on Tuesday upgraded the software for the second time since the DVR was introduced last month.

"Some things are not as intuitive as we thought, and we're polishing it," says DirecTV Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual. "It's the kind of thing we do for a living."

It's important for DirecTV, which is controlled by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp., to get things right: The new DVR - with software from Murdoch's NDS Group - will enable the No. 1 satellite company to offer video on demand and other services that it considers crucial to help it compete with cable.

*More...*


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## ZildjianB (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks for the article... it was a good read.



DirecTV Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual said:


> "If you're new to DVRs, you'll love this product"


That says it all to me. If you owned a TiVo prior to the R15 (especially SA Series2, like me), the R15 leaves a lot to be desired in its current state. He also seems to be conceeding that the 15% of D* customers that owned one of their previous DVRs have a good chance of *not* loving the new DVR.



> Others say that the DirecTV units failed to record shows they had scheduled.
> 
> DirecTV says it hasn't found that problem: "We do not have this bug in our system," Pontual says.


I hope he was joking. This just happened to me last night. Saw a movie was coming on in about a half hour, told the R15 to record it, canceled the previous recording when asked. The R15 never started recording the movie. I forced an update to 109A afterwards, but I doubt this will help.



> He adds that the new software download should make it easier to control the fast-forwarding. But it won't mimic a TiVo feature which goes back as much as a second when users stop fast-forwarding.
> 
> "Some people want it to stop where they press and not try to read their minds," Pontual says. "It's a choice."


I did notice a slight difference with FFWD early this morning... it almost seemed slower, but I do not really think that solves the problem. The automatic 'jump back' TiVo does it great. It helps compensate for the time taken to recognize the show on the screen and then press the play button. On the R15, I find that I can be ~15 seconds (or more) into the show by the time I hit play and the audio and video sync after a FFWD. Then begins the whole FFWD/RWD game described in the article to try to find the beginning.

EDIT:


> TiVo declined to comment.


TiVo has got to be loving this.


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## joecool1964 (Nov 20, 2005)

Nick said:


> "*The interface is not intuitive*"
> 
> By David Lieberman, USA TODAY
> 
> ...


According to this article DirecTV is not aware of inconsistent recording issues???  That's the been the worst problem I'm had, and obviously
others have experienced the same thing. Well, if nothing else, this article has (hopefully) gotten DirecTV's attention. Bad press is never a good thing...


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

"Some things are not as intuitive as we thought, and we're polishing it," 

"Others say that the DirecTV units failed to record shows they had scheduled.

DirecTV says it hasn't found that problem: "We do not have this bug in our system," Pontual says."


This is exactly the response I expected and was afraid of and why my previous posts are negative in nature. 

Blame the user for not being smart enough. I dont think intuition has anything to do with the caller-id breaking, or a 100 max limit on the "to-do" list or shows not recording. 

And to say that they haven't found the bug in their system is very telling, it is either a lie or they have not done any robust testing to replicate an obvious bug.


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## vlj9r (Nov 23, 2005)

"Others say that the DirecTV units failed to record shows they had scheduled.

DirecTV says it hasn't found that problem: "We do not have this bug in our system," Pontual says. "

I wonder what Directv evangelists are going to say about this. 

This is the worst possible bug for a DVR and it happened to me with my SeasonPass for American Chopper. It recorded all shows but the first run. My Direct Tivo unit recorded it just fine.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

vlj9r said:


> "Others say that the DirecTV units failed to record shows they had scheduled.
> 
> DirecTV says it hasn't found that problem: "We do not have this bug in our system," Pontual says. "
> 
> ...


We already know what the TIVO evangelists will say


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## mtchamp (Nov 24, 2005)

This national news proves the R15 is defective and a major mistake to introduce the R15 without first making sure it works. Anyone who comes along and suggests that a DirecTV customer should put up with this piece of junk while DirecTV gets it right over the next few years must be living in fantasy land. NDS has been suppling boxes to the UK version of DirecTV and they still don't have it right after more than 3 years.

DirecTV came to market knowing they had an inferior DVR when compared to TiVo. I as a DirecTV customer for more than 10 years am completely disappointed in the actions of this once great company. TiVo is available to DirecTV customers right now. It is very important that those of us with DVR knowledge and experience help others in this forum do the right thing. Do business with a DirecTV supplier who can guarantee you'll receive a TiVo R10. Don't order directly from DirecTV or you'll end up with an NDS R15 and become one of DirecTV's beta testers.

We should be recommending that new DirecTV customers not waste their time and money with new contracts on a piece of junk DVR known as the R15. It requires so much babysitting to try to be sure your programs get recorded and there still is no guarantee they will.

Can you call the R15 a DVR? Maybe, but it's certainly not a PVR (Personal Video Recorder) like TiVo. I wouldn't consider an NDS R15 over the TiVo brand R10 for one minute. I don't own an R15, I have 6 DirecTV DVR's with TiVo (R10 type) that work perfectly. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to family and friends or anyone for that matter. What would people think of me for recommending such a piece of junk when I know of the defects this device suffers from? Am I going to tell them to wait a few years until DirecTV gets it right. I have more good sense than that.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

mtchamp said:


> This national news proves the R15 is defective and a major mistake to introduce the R15 without first making sure it works. Anyone who comes along and suggests that a DirecTV customer should put up with this piece of junk while DirecTV gets it right over the next few years must be living in fantasy land. NDS has been suppling boxes to the UK version of DirecTV and they still don't have it right after more than 3 years.
> 
> DirecTV came to market knowing they had an inferior DVR when compared to TiVo. I as a DirecTV customer for more than 10 years am completely disappointed in the actions of this once great company. TiVo is available to DirecTV customers right now. It is very important that those of us with DVR knowledge and experience help others in this forum do the right thing. Do business with a DirecTV supplier who can guarantee you'll receive a TiVo R10. Don't order directly from DirecTV or you'll end up with an NDS R15 and become one of DirecTV's beta testers.
> 
> ...


Ya because Tivo was perfect and has all the features it has now from the second it hit the market. It never messes up and never has issues.

Oh and btw that was sarcasm. Tivo had and still has issues, while it is superior right now that could change over time.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Yep, I totally agree. This is what happens when you f*** with something thats not broke. There was absolutely nothing wrong with Tivo.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> Tivo had and still has issues, while it is superior right now that could change over time.


The tone of directv's statements in that article tells me different.

It is either PR spin or they seem to be unwilling to acknowlege the problems and lack of key features which doesn't give me hope that anything but the most obvious bugs will be fixed.


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

raott said:


> The tone of directv's statements in that article tells me different.
> 
> It is either PR spin or they seem to be unwilling to acknowlege the problems and lack of key features which doesn't give me hope that anything but the most obvious bugs will be fixed.





> Others say that the DirecTV units failed to record shows they had scheduled.
> DirecTV says it hasn't found that problem: "We do not have this bug in our system," Pontual says


It's got to be PR spin. They can't be that stupid. It's the most basic function of a dvr, and this machine can't do it correctly.



> "If you're new to DVRs, you'll love this product," he says.


That's just great. And what's going to happen when they try to foist this crappy software on the hr10-250 user base, as an "upgrade" path for receivers which many couldn't wait to purchase for $1000. Let's see, by that time there very well may be a standalone HD CC TiVo available, TiVo software available on Comcast supplied boxes, as well as HD DVD players. Why would I need or want DirecTV and it's inferior dvr?


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

Kanyon71 said:


> Ya because Tivo was perfect and has all the features it has now from the second it hit the market. It never messes up and never has issues.
> 
> Oh and btw that was sarcasm. Tivo had and still has issues, while it is superior right now that could change over time.


I have never seen anyone here claim that tivos are "perfect". But they are reliable, rarely missing what they should record, and rarely recording what they shouldn't. They also have additional features which have been taken away and were not even mentioned in the article. All this from the second they hit the market. Do tivos still have issues? Of course. Again, nothing in this world is "perfect". But these r15s have invented a whole new level of "imperfection".

When you have a product which works and you replace it with a product which doesn't, you'd better fix it quickly. It's not like they were starting from scratch. They've been selling dvrs for what, 5 years now? Reading this article, it seems to me that DirecTV is clueless about what they need to do.


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## EmployeeoftheMonth (Nov 18, 2005)

With these admissions of a substandard product release and us early users as their unwitting beta-testers, there is only one thing D* needs to do NOW to salvage their credibility is:

1. Waive the DVR service fee until ALL known issues are resolved.

2. Credit on a prorated basis the DVR fees (including ubscription fees) paid by the early "beta-testers".

3. A substantial freebie programing upgrade as part of their "oops, we're sorry."

Otherwise, Class Action Lawsuit.


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## EmployeeoftheMonth (Nov 18, 2005)

We as consumers have choices. There are other service providers. 

When a company fails to deliver promised services - then any contractual obligations on the part of the consumer are no longer enforceable. Breach of contract.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ad301 said:


> I have never seen anyone here claim that tivos are "perfect". But they are reliable, rarely missing what they should record, and rarely recording what they shouldn't. They also have additional features which have been taken away and were not even mentioned in the article. All this from the second they hit the market. Do tivos still have issues? Of course. Again, nothing in this world is "perfect". But these r15s have invented a whole new level of "imperfection".
> 
> When you have a product which works and you replace it with a product which doesn't, you'd better fix it quickly. It's not like they were starting from scratch. They've been selling dvrs for what, 5 years now? Reading this article, it seems to me that DirecTV is clueless about what they need to do.


I fully agree that if they ignore these problems they deserve whatever happens to them. If they don't fix things I for one know I will leave. I just get very tired of people making it out like Tivo is perfect. I have had multiple Tivo's for a very long time, now they have gotten better over time but they still have issues (Mine has missed a couple of things in the last 2 months). I haven't had anything missed witht he R-15 BUT I am very annoyed at it recording things I have told it not to. I seriously hope that this person was just out och with whats actually being worked on on this machine if not it's going to be a very long and bad road for them to travel.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Like bees to honey.:lol:


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## trish2 (Dec 20, 2005)

This may be wishful thinking, but maybe with the negative article on USA Today, D* will finally realize what a pile of trash the NDS dvr software really is and D* will renew the TiVo contract w/ full support of ALL ITS FEATURES along w/ the MS* iptv epg guide!! In addition, I hope D* customers rise up(perhaps a peaceful, organized protest @ the D* booth @ ces 2006) and demand the r15 be recalled!


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## LP30 (Feb 27, 2004)

Unfortunately DTV is following in the foot steps of Dish and is having the same results. I struggled through endless updates and unfulfilled promises with Dish DVR's for several years and things never reached the level of reliability of the Direct Tivo units I have now. I don't understand why DTV has made this choice. The money per subscriber to Tivo is miniscule. I won't go back to Dish. If I'm forced into these DVR plus units, I'll be heading to cable.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

trish2 said:


> This may be wishful thinking, but maybe with the negative article on USA Today, D* will finally realize what a pile of trash the NDS dvr software really is and D* will renew the TiVo contract w/ full support of ALL ITS FEATURES along w/ the MS* iptv epg guide!! In addition, I hope D* customers rise up(perhaps a peaceful, organized protest @ the D* booth @ ces 2006) and demand the r15 be recalled!


It will never be allowed to happen no matter how much we all complain. Rupert got mad at Tivo after wanting to buy them. So he took his ball and went home. So unless they sell to him I think sadly you will never see a new Tivo brought out or supported on DirecTV again. Probably about as much chance of that happening as UltimateTV coming back and ReplayTV coming out with a DirecTV box.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

LP30 said:


> Unfortunately DTV is following in the foot steps of Dish and is having the same results. I struggled through endless updates and unfulfilled promises with Dish DVR's for several years and things never reached the level of reliability of the Direct Tivo units I have now. I don't understand why DTV has made this choice. The money per subscriber to Tivo is miniscule. I won't go back to Dish. If I'm forced into these DVR plus units, I'll be heading to cable.


Ego, that's the reason. RM's Ego.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

Wow, from all the reactions on this thread it sounds like the R15 is total garbage. It must not work at all for some 80% of people with this defective unit.

As for me, I record approximately 22 shows per day -- 19 shows using series link, 1 using autorecord, and 1 to 2 per day by selecting a show from the guide. Since the guide info was updated/expanded on the weekend of 12/4, my R15 has recorded each and every show exactly as advertised. 

So why is my R15 working so well?
- I got lucky and received a machine that actually works? I doubt it.
- I am just smarter than the rest of you and know how to make it work? Hell no!
- I am not a power user who pushes the R15 past its limits? Maybe that's it since I don't have caller id and don't try to record only first run programs, and I don't worry about not having dual buffers since I get the same functionality by recording 2 shows at the same time....

What ever the reason, I just want it noted that the R15 does work fine for some of us.
-Eric


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Cripe, 22 a day? How ta heck do you watch those? That's at least 11 hours a day.


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## 2devnull (Sep 28, 2005)

wow, my 350 hr R-10 must be worth a lot now.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

zortapa said:


> As for me, I record approximately 22 shows per day -- 19 shows using series link, 1 using autorecord, and 1 to 2 per day by selecting a show from the guide. Since the guide info was updated/expanded on the weekend of 12/4, my R15 has recorded each and every show exactly as advertised.


Honest question: how are you doing that? By all accounts that should be impossible with the R15.

Let's say you have 19 series links that result in a recording a day, and 1 autorecord that results in a recording a day. You've filled your To Do List limit of 100 in 5 days. How is it letting you pick shows from the guide at this point?

Maybe I'm missing something (full disclosure: I don't have an R15 and base all this on posts read here and elsewhere).

Wolffpack: 22 shows per day is nothing. It seems too many people think you have to actually watch everything you record. If that were the case, we would never have needed to go beyond the 35-hour recorder IMO.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Maybe the update fixed the limit?


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> UltimateTV coming back


Gosh wouldn't that be nice. I've had UTV now for 3 years and never once had a problem with it. Never a reboot, never missed a recording, no limit on the number of shows you can record, nice simple design and user interface, and I have PIP.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

zortapa said:


> Wow, from all the reactions on this thread it sounds like the R15 is total garbage. It must not work at all for some 80% of people with this defective unit.
> 
> As for me, I record approximately 22 shows per day -- 19 shows using series link, 1 using autorecord, and 1 to 2 per day by selecting a show from the guide. Since the guide info was updated/expanded on the weekend of 12/4, my R15 has recorded each and every show exactly as advertised.
> 
> ...


ERIC i have about the same setup as you expect i've got about 25 shows using series links. Does it show that all the shows are going to record in the todo list or does it update at night an pull the correct shows for the next day?



walters said:


> Honest question: how are you doing that? By all accounts that should be impossible with the R15.
> 
> Let's say you have 19 series links that result in a recording a day, and 1 autorecord that results in a recording a day. You've filled your To Do List limit of 100 in 5 days. How is it letting you pick shows from the guide at this point?


WALTERS I should have the same thing that your talking about, but my To Do List never hits 100, it's got up to 89. Then again it doesn't show all the shows that should be record for the next two weeks. Example, SG1 has shows almost every on SCI-FI and so do Simpsons on fox but they both only show that they are going to record shows for the current day. All the other shows for the two weeks show that they are not going to record. But the next day the next days shows are showing to record. I think the last update before this one fixed it so it would hose the To Do List. The weird thing is that some times the recording show up as if i had set it up to only record that one show and others show up as series record symbol. The good thing is that I also haven't missed a show that i know of, but it really ticks me off because I have to check it every day to make sure it did update to record those shows for that day.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

It's pretty simple. While my R15 records approx 22 shows per day, we only watch 3 or 4 of them. I have 10 series links recording ~ 20 different childrens shows/episodes each day. This way when my children want to watch something, they can choose anything that is recorded. I also keep only 2 episodes of each, so most are being deleted instead of being watched. The other series links are for the shows that my wife and I watch, and those shows are usually aired/recorded just once a week. Finally, I have occasionally added other holiday shows or certain movies after reviewing the guide data or searching for something specific with Find By.

PLEASE NOTE THAT I DID NOT SAY THAT WE WATCHED ALL THESE SHOWS. 

So, in addition to giving my kids some choice in what they watch, I was also doing this to test the R15. For this reason, every evening after getting home I have been spending 10-15 minutes reviewing all the recording from that day to see if any had been skipped or only partially recorded. Since 12/4 everything has recorded as intended.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

walters said:


> Honest question: how are you doing that? By all accounts that should be impossible with the R15.
> 
> Let's say you have 19 series links that result in a recording a day, and 1 autorecord that results in a recording a day. You've filled your To Do List limit of 100 in 5 days. How is it letting you pick shows from the guide at this point?


I've never had a problem with the 100 limit in the To Do list. Each time something is recorded it is removed from the To Do list leaving room for something else to be added. It then seems that the R15 periodically (perhaps hourly?) scans the guide to see if something else that meets my selection criteria should be added to the list, and it does it.

Here's an example. Every time I look at my To Do list there are between 88 and 96 items in it. It has never included 100 items. Suppose it has 95 items and I decide to add a new series link for a show like, say, Blues Clues, that is aired 3 or 4 times per day. At the most basic level this is like adding at least 3x14=42 new items to my ToDo list. But the R15 does not do that, it just adds a couple of the episodes that will air in the next day. When I check back a couple hours later, I find that more Blues Clues episodes have been added to my To Do list for the next few days. I am not sure how it does this, but I suspect that it may remove some SL episodes that were already in the TODO list that had been scheduled to record more than a week into the future. (Heck, they really did not need to be taking up those spaces yet!)

This is not a problem because as time advances and various shows are recorded and removed from my ToDo list, then the R15 automatically updates the list by re-adding the shows that previously had been removed to make room for the Blues Clues episodes. In other words, just because a future SL episode is not currently in the To Do list does not necessarily mean that it will not be recorded. It might have been temporarily removed to make room for some other program that will air sooner. Or, when the TO DO list is nearly full, the R15 may simply need to wait until it is closer to air-time before the show can be added to the To Do list. Thus, with one exception I do not worry about my ToDo list more than 48 hours into the future. The lone exception is for one-time recordings that, I suspect, must continuously remain in the ToDo list.

The bottom line is that the R15 is adept at managing the dynamic scheduling challenges that I have programmed. Perhaps it's just dumb luck, but it works for me.

-Eric


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

zortapa, thanks for your reports, they are very informative. Please continue to keep us posted on how your series links perform.

I take issue with one thing. The idea that it's acceptable to be able see scheduled events for only the next 48 hours seems to me to be too limiting. There are many instances where it is useful to be able to see all todos for as far as the guide data extends. Just prior to a weeklong trip away from home is one example. These limits, 25-50-100, need to be removed.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

ad310: Your points regarding my 48 hour threshhold and the 25-50-100 limits are well taken, especially since I am leaving tomorrow for a week. 

Let me clarify my point a little further. I, personally, do not care to spend my time scrolling through my TODO list for more than a couple days in the future. Because there is a 100 program limit in the TODO list, and because I have a lot of SLs with multiple episodes being recorded each day, beyond this point I have noticed that some episodes might not be in the ToDo list at one time but that they are then added to the list at a later time. What's important to me is that the programs that are to be recorded in the near term are in the ToDo list, and they always are. Thus, I do not worry about looking too far into the future.

Regarding the 100 episode limit for the ToDo list, I was wondering how I would manage if it were, say, 500 or 1000 episodes. Assume that my 10 childrens SLs are all for shows that air 3 unique episodes each day. This is not the case, but it is plausible. Now, if the ToDo list were larger, then these 10 SLs would take up 10 x 3 x 14 = 420 slots. Would it really be necessary to show me all of this in the ToDo list? No thank you! 

With the current 100 item limit the R15 only lists a portion of each of these SLs, which is sufficient for me; although I fully recognize that many on this list want to have full control of and disclosure from their machines. The only time this limit would be detrimental is if it prevented me from adding a new recording, but this has not happened to me..... yet.


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

I don't see why there is such a big fuss... the R15 lets DirecTV customers have the same kinds of fun that users of the newest Dish DVRs are having - they have become part of the "Great DVR Adventure Club" aka "The @#&^& Thing Did It Again Club" - exciting, isn't it? Until now, the DirecTivo owners seldom had an opportunity to grouse about problems in online forums - that was a priviledge that was for Dish DVR users, but the R15 has changed that.

And... to be topical: Isn't everything today about fairness and equality? Why should customers with one DBS service get a more reliable and/or feature-rich DVR (the DirecTivos) than customers of the other DBS service?


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## bedavis007 (Dec 23, 2005)

I had my R-15 just over 24 hours before I called them to send me a shipping label to take it back. Everything about it was counter-intuitive and user-unfriendly. It was unreliable and poorly designed. To avoid patent lawsuits they went out of their way to NOT be TiVo, but TiVo had alot of things right. I got it essentially for free by recommitting, but I went back to my Hughes/TiVo 35 hour box. I sent an e-mail to customer service asking for a TiVo box, and as a $125/month customer since 1999, I'm hoping I get a response, otherwise I'm going to move to another service.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

toad57 said:


> I don't see why there is such a big fuss... the R15 lets DirecTV customers have the same kinds of fun that users of the newest Dish DVRs are having - they have become part of the "Great DVR Adventure Club" aka "The @#&^& Thing Did It Again Club" - exciting, isn't it? Until now, the DirecTivo owners seldom had an opportunity to grouse about problems in online forums - that was a priviledge that was for Dish DVR users, but the R15 has changed that.
> 
> And... to be topical: Isn't everything today about fairness and equality? Why should customers with one DBS service get a more reliable and/or feature-rich DVR (the DirecTivos) than customers of the other DBS service?


Well put Toad.

It's about time to level the playing field between the two DBS providers. DTV has taken a huge step forward with discarding the DTivos in favor of Rupert's own NDS boxes. After all, those Tivo folks were receiving huge amounts of $$ from DTV for every box sold.

I'm just guessing now, Rupert must have has some vision in which he made the decision to release his own DVR.....as lacking as it is.

Oh, but then again, we have to keep in mind that this entire exercise in NDS/DTV releasing their own DVR could simply be a result of Tivo telling Rupert they will not sell out to him. Humm.

Toad, you are correct we are all now in the "Great DVR Adventure Club". Well, other than those of use that still have our DTivos and refuse to give them up.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bedavis007 said:


> I had my R-15 just over 24 hours before I called them to send me a shipping label to take it back. Everything about it was counter-intuitive and user-unfriendly. It was unreliable and poorly designed. To avoid patent lawsuits they went out of their way to NOT be TiVo, but TiVo had alot of things right. I got it essentially for free by recommitting, but I went back to my Hughes/TiVo 35 hour box. I sent an e-mail to customer service asking for a TiVo box, and as a $125/month customer since 1999, I'm hoping I get a response, otherwise I'm going to move to another service.


Call DTV and ask for customer retention. Or...go out to ebay and find a trusted and true DTIvo series 2 unit. Buy that and go with that until it doesn't work any more. Find an R10, HDVR2, SD-dvr40 or other models. Stay away from the R15's. No rebates but you can depend on the unit to record what you tell it to record and you also get the 30 second skip....once you enter the codes on the remote.

Or....get an R15 and plege your future DVR experiences to DTV and the fact they will a) acknowledge they have problems and b) fix those.


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## mtchamp (Nov 24, 2005)

The best advice for new and existing customers of DirecTV who are new to DVR or already have a TiVo is to be very careful not to enter into another 2 year commitment without knowing you'll be receiving a TiVo DVR. So buy it in a store or order it from a reseller who can guarantee you a TiVo.

There is a major electronics trade show coming in the first week of January called CES (Consumer Electronics Show) in Las Vegas. You could also wait until this is over and see what the new CableCard multi-stream dual-tuner HD TiVo standalones have to offer plus what Comcast will be doing with TiVo. Many other things could be announced that will help you decide if it's worth another 2 year commitment with DirecTV for a R15 DVR that is inferior or even a DirecTV TiVo DVR, that as great as it is, DirecTV no longer wants to update it with the latest TiVo software.

If you are into DVR and you don't want to be stuck with a R15 or a crippled TiVo from DirecTV and a new 2 year commitment and want the best DVR available in 2006, you don't have much of a wait to find out what's coming. Two to three weeks and all will be revealed.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

zortapa said:


> ad310: Your points regarding my 48 hour threshhold and the 25-50-100 limits are well taken, especially since I am leaving tomorrow for a week.
> 
> Let me clarify my point a little further. I, personally, do not care to spend my time scrolling through my TODO list for more than a couple days in the future. Because there is a 100 program limit in the TODO list, and because I have a lot of SLs with multiple episodes being recorded each day, beyond this point I have noticed that some episodes might not be in the ToDo list at one time but that they are then added to the list at a later time. What's important to me is that the programs that are to be recorded in the near term are in the ToDo list, and they always are. Thus, I do not worry about looking too far into the future.
> 
> ...


I understand this is good for you zortapa, but besides what ad310 pointed out about vacations, I also have an issue with not being able to look at the next week and resolve any conflicts. With the way this has been working and only showing what it's going to record in the next 24 hrs, I have to watch it every night to make sure that what i want to see will record because conflicts might not show up until that night. It's not like this is an unreasonable request the UTV and i think the tivo did it, why the heck did they limit the todo list to 100? It's nice that they found a fix so the todo list fill up but this is not a good fix to only be able to see what's really happening in the next 24hrs.

The other thing i noticed is it does use the ~28 rule. It took me a minute to figure it out but it wasn't showing that it was going to record some shows in the 24hr time period, but then i remember that the show had already been recorded and erased. It was just different then the UTV did it. The UTV showed that the show was scheduled to record but when it came time to record it wouldn't record it and would put a note in history that it was recorded because the program had previously been recorded.

BTW what is the 25 limit ad310 was talking about? I know the 50 series and 100 todo.


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

mtchamp said:


> If you are into DVR and you don't want to be stuck with a R15 or a crippled TiVo from DirecTV and a new 2 year commitment and want the best DVR available in 2006, you don't have much of a wait to find out what's coming. Two to three weeks and all will be revealed.


Yes, it should be very interesting. I've basically given up on DirecTV at this point, as far as the NDS line of dvrs goes. Even if they eventually fix all the bugs, there's still the matter of the comparatively limited feature-set, which I find unworkable for my particular needs. I'm pinning all my hopes on the HMC. Hopefully the software on those boxes will be far more capable than the NDS software. If not and luckily for me, in my area there are alternatives to DirecTV.


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> BTW what is the 25 limit ad310 was talking about? I know the 50 series and 100 todo.


There's a limit of 25 on the number of recent finds. After 25, they scroll off when you do a new find. There is no way to save finds indefinitely except by making them auto-recording, which introduces many other problems.

(BTW, it's ad301, not 310. AD are my initials, and 301 is a special number to me.)


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

ad301 said:


> There's a limit of 25 on the number of recent finds. After 25, they scroll off when you do a new find. There is no way to save finds indefinitely except by making them auto-recording, which introduces many other problems.
> 
> (BTW, it's ad301, not 310. AD are my initials, and 301 is a special number to me.)


Sorry my bad ad301, it's early and i'm stuck at work. I'm still trying to wake up. God i hate working Christmas Eve.


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Sorry my bad ad301, it's early and i'm stuck at work. I'm still trying to wake up. God i hate working Christmas Eve.


No problem.


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## bedavis007 (Dec 23, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Call DTV and ask for customer retention. Or...go out to ebay and find a trusted and true DTIvo series 2 unit. Buy that and go with that until it doesn't work any more. Find an R10, HDVR2, SD-dvr40 or other models. Stay away from the R15's. No rebates but you can depend on the unit to record what you tell it to record and you also get the 30 second skip....once you enter the codes on the remote.
> 
> Or....get an R15 and plege your future DVR experiences to DTV and the fact they will a) acknowledge they have problems and b) fix those.


I e-mailed DTV CS and reminded them that I was a $1,500 a year customer (more for the first 5 years when I orderd the NFL pkg). I got a nice e-mail back from them that same night saying that they would have someone call me next week to resolve the problem. In my e-mail I basically told them that I wanted a TiVo box or I'm going to Comcast. I already have high-speed net in my home from Comcast, and I already got a quote for virtually the same channels/features at the same price. I'd love to stay with DTV but this has really soured me on their service.


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

zortapa said:


> Regarding the 100 episode limit for the ToDo list, I was wondering how I would manage if it were, say, 500 or 1000 episodes. Assume that my 10 childrens SLs are all for shows that air 3 unique episodes each day. This is not the case, but it is plausible. Now, if the ToDo list were larger, then these 10 SLs would take up 10 x 3 x 14 = 420 slots. Would it really be necessary to show me all of this in the ToDo list? No thank you!


What's to manage? If you don't care to look at the todo list, you certainly don't have to. But why shouldn't you be able to, if you wanted to? Not able to see what's scheduled 3 days from now? No thank you!

Just for kicks, to satisfy my curiousity, I ran a little test on my r10. Using find by title>age appropriate>children I was able to quickly find 11 series with many episodes each day. I set season passes for those 11 (I was going to do 10 but lost count) setting each to save 2 episodes and record all including duplicates. This took me about 20 minutes. At that point I looked at the todo list, and there were 63 pages x 7 items per page = 441 programs, scheduled out to 1/5. It takes 15 seconds to scroll through the entire list, if you want to. The main point is that after adding 11 season passes in a short period of time, all the scheduled recordings are instantly apparent, if you care to see the list. There is no guessing about what may be recorded three days from now or 12 days from now, it shows you. IMHO, we should expect the same level of performance and utility from the r15.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

AD301, Thanks for the test. Your results are very interesting. 

For series links, I do not care to have to wade through all those children's shows sitting in my ToDo list when I scan through it to see what is scheduled to record. Furthermore, I, personally, don't think that it is necessary to see 14 days worth of programs that are in any SL/SP. I would be happy with having just the next 3 episodes shown in my ToDo list since the R15 SL algorithm works fine.

Also, I suspect that there are some others who are not happy with the arbitrary 14 day cutoff either. From their perspective, since this is an SL/SP, why not list ALL the upcoming episodes for the coming season, month, year, forever? Isn't that what they actually programmed?

Granted, for SLs it does make sense that some artibrary cutoff is used. You and other Tivo aficionados seem to like the 14 day cutoff, presumably because it is consistent with the guide info. I don't think this is necessary, and the 100 program limit as implemented on the R15 works for me. But it is clear that we have different preferences for how this information is displayed, and perhaps DTv can give us an option that allows us to make this choice. [NOTE TO DTV: Let us select the size of the ToDo list: (100, 500, complete)].

Finally, let me point out that I would be very concerned with the 100 program limit if it actually affected what I could/could not program. For example, if I happened to select 100 individual programs to record, then I would NOT be able to add any more programs, and I would be VERY unhappy with this arbitrary limit. Fortunately, this is not the case and thus far this 100 program limit has not prevented me from adding any recordings on my R15.

-Eric

P.S. Your little test did show me one place where the R10 clearly is superior to the R15. While it took you just 15 seconds to scroll through your entire ToDo list of over 450 programs, my R15 sometimes hangs when I try to scroll through just 90 items!!!!! :nono2:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

As for the 14 day "limit"... That is just a defacto arbitrary number, that balances between performance and practicallity.

Networks have been known to change their line-ups "hours" before air time... Changes do happen. If you have seen the performance of the TiVo boxes, could you imagine what the guide data or scheduler would be like if you added another week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks into the data pool...

It would slow down even more so then it is now.

The 50 AutoRecord and 100 todo list, *IS* an issue that DirecTV is working on to correct, and I would expect it to be in the next software release.


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## mya23rd (Dec 11, 2005)

I’m not surprised at all by both the DVR problems and the response by DTV. I still don’t fully understand why DTV decided to drop Tivo. I mean I understand that they want total control of the platform and want to make some changes but I’m sure they could have done much of this in cooperation with Tivo. I mean Tivo does have an incentive to keep DTV happy. The thing that bothers me is that I think for several reasons DTV made tis move because of money. Of course they are a commercial enterprise but I think they might be trying to cut corners. Firstly, they did not like paying out monthly fees to Tivo, but that could have been negotiated or worked out. Secondly, the fact that DTV is using another Murdoch company, NDS, is also troubling because I think it causes a tendency to offer a cheaper product that is not necessarily the best product for customers. Sure its great for Newscorp but what does it do for all the happy Tivo customers who now have to deal with this new DVR.

I would have never imagined dropping DTV but now I am seriously considering it. As indicated by the DTV official’s response, its gonna take a long time before they work out all the kinks, let alone acknowledge they have kinks to be worked out in the first place. I don’t want to deal with all the issues that are going to have to be worked out in the coming years, and who knows if they will ever get it right.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

mya23rd said:


> I'm not surprised at all by both the DVR problems and the response by DTV. I still don't fully understand why DTV decided to drop Tivo. I mean I understand that they want total control of the platform and want to make some changes but I'm sure they could have done much of this in cooperation with Tivo. I mean Tivo does have an incentive to keep DTV happy. The thing that bothers me is that I think for several reasons DTV made tis move because of money. Of course they are a commercial enterprise but I think they might be trying to cut corners. Firstly, they did not like paying out monthly fees to Tivo, but that could have been negotiated or worked out. Secondly, the fact that DTV is using another Murdoch company, NDS, is also troubling because I think it causes a tendency to offer a cheaper product that is not necessarily the best product for customers. Sure its great for Newscorp but what does it do for all the happy Tivo customers who now have to deal with this new DVR.
> 
> I would have never imagined dropping DTV but now I am seriously considering it. As indicated by the DTV official's response, its gonna take a long time before they work out all the kinks, let alone acknowledge they have kinks to be worked out in the first place. I don't want to deal with all the issues that are going to have to be worked out in the coming years, and who knows if they will ever get it right.


I'm sure there are many factors on why they dropped Tivo, but none of us will probably ever know the real reason.

Now where did you see DirecTV say that it's going to take a long time to fix the issues found?

I definately don't like the fact that there are some issues they aren't saying they see, I hope it's just someone wasn't informed before they had to do the press conference. The people I would like to hear from are the developers I would like ot know what they think the issues are.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> I'm sure there are many factors on why they dropped Tivo, but none of us will probably ever know the real reason.
> 
> Now where did you see DirecTV say that it's going to take a long time to fix the issues found?
> 
> I definately don't like the fact that there are some issues they aren't saying they see, I hope it's just someone wasn't informed before they had to do the press conference. The people I would like to hear from are the developers I would like ot know what they think the issues are.


Kind of a "You are doing a great job Brownie" (Katrina Reference) comment?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> Kind of a "You are doing a great job Brownie" (Katrina Reference) comment?


I personally think the whole thing was a pissing match of ego's where the losers in this are the consumers. I honestly would prefer that they have the Tivo andthe R15 and make them all play nicely together. THAT would be the best of both worlds in my eyes.


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

Kanyon71 said:


> I personally think the whole thing was a pissing match of ego's where the losers in this are the consumers. I honestly would prefer that they have the Tivo andthe R15 and make them all play nicely together. THAT would be the best of both worlds in my eyes.


I agree with this. I especially agree that this would have been best in the HD side of things, where they are now rolling out HD LIL into market after market, with no mpeg4 HD dvr in sight.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

This goes back to my thoughts that if TIVO had been able to contract to have their DTivo boxes put out there for "free" like the R15 is, they would have collected now in that DTV would not have allowed the breakup to occur once they cornered the market.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> The 50 AutoRecord and 100 todo list, *IS* an issue that DirecTV is working on to correct, and I would expect it to be in the next software release.


Earl, where did you get that info that they are fixing it from? When i called a week and a half ago they said they were not aware of it and from other post that i've seen they have said they get the same response when they talk to the DVR tech's as well. That would be great if they did take care of it soon.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Earl, where did you get that info that they are fixing it from? When i called a week and a half ago they said they were not aware of it and from other post that i've seen they have said they get the same response when they talk to the DVR tech's as well. That would be great if they did take care of it soon.


I wish I could say... really do... but it kinda like one of those "protect the source" type deals. I just know for certain... without hesitation... that DirecTV is aware of the limitation, and they are working on a correction.

It is just one of those corrections that has a chain reaction affect.... You know increase the later to say 500... well then performance get's dinged here and there... So it is just not a simple go in change a variable and recompile.

As of last discussion with this person, there was not an ETA for it... but is definently a priority for them to get corrected.

As most of you know from my history, when I think something is a rumor... I usually put a cavet on the statement. This is one is a close as you can get to a fact without a public release from DirecTV... IMHO.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> I wish I could say... really do... but it kinda like one of those "protect the source" type deals. I just know for certain... without hesitation... that DirecTV is aware of the limitation, and they are working on a correction.
> 
> It is just one of those corrections that has a chain reaction affect.... You know increase the later to say 500... well then performance get's dinged here and there... So it is just not a simple go in change a variable and recompile.
> 
> ...


That's cool, i understand not giving up your source. I had assumed I had missed a post that someone had talked to D* and gotten a confirmation from them. I never thought the answer would be a direct contact. I'm just glad that someone up there is aware of the fact (unlike the DVR tech's). As long as they fix this and i'm able to see all my shows that will record for the next 2 weeks and be able to put in the my 64 series record I be a happy camper. Thanks for the info Earl.


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> I wish I could say... really do... but it kinda like one of those "protect the source" type deals. I just know for certain... without hesitation... that DirecTV is aware of the limitation, and they are working on a correction.
> 
> It is just one of those corrections that has a chain reaction affect.... You know increase the later to say 500... well then performance get's dinged here and there... So it is just not a simple go in change a variable and recompile.
> 
> ...


Thanks Earl for the update. Could you ask your source if the 30 second skip is even discussed as a potential enhancement? I realize this is a backdoor hack on Tivo to appease content providers but is it so taboo that it will never see the light of day on the R15 or R20?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tall1 said:


> Thanks Earl for the update. Could you ask your source if the 30 second skip is even discussed as a potential enhancement? I realize this is a backdoor hack on Tivo to appease content providers but is it so taboo that it will never see the light of day on the R15 or R20?


I have asked, and the reply was that "something" was in the works... but couldn't elaborate much more then that... As we all know... the providers really really don't like that we can skip commercials that easily.

So that one I would move a little more closer to the rumor side of things, until more of the details are hashed out about it.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> I personally think the whole thing was a pissing match of ego's where the losers in this are the consumers. I honestly would prefer that they have the Tivo andthe R15 and make them all play nicely together. THAT would be the best of both worlds in my eyes.


I agree too. The Tivo contract expires in 2007, maybe D* will realize the mistake they are making over the next year or so and will go back or continue the contract with Tivo. *yeah right*


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

theratpatrol said:


> I agree too. The Tivo contract expires in 2007, maybe D* will realize the mistake they are making over the next year or so and will go back or continue the contract with Tivo. *yeah right*


That or Tivo goes under and during the process all source code is released under the GNU/GPL.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> That or Tivo goes under and during the process all source code is released under the GNU/GPL.


OR Tivo starts to go under when they file bankruptcy, but at the last minute Rupert buys it.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

theratpatrol said:


> OR Tivo starts to go under when they file bankruptcy, but at the last minute Rupert buys it.


Yea, that's it. He'd buy it and as a last "up yours gesture" he'd seal all the source in a bank fault somewhere so no one will ever find it.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Yea, that's it. He'd buy it and as a last "up yours gesture" he'd seal all the source in a bank fault somewhere so no one will ever find it.


Honestly I don't see Tivo going away. They own FAR too many patents that if they can be upheld are worth a lot of money. I wouldn't mind someone big buying Tivo (maybe Apple) but if DirecTV or Comcast got ahold of them Tivo as we know it would be a goner.


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> I have asked, and the reply was that "something" was in the works... but couldn't elaborate much more then that... As we all know... the providers really really don't like that we can skip commercials that easily.
> 
> So that one I would move a little more closer to the rumor side of things, until more of the details are hashed out about it.


I hope they actually come up with a 30 second skip for their future DVRs. I've gotten pretty used to it, particularly for football. And eventually, if TIVO gets their pricing structure in order (say 5.99 a month for a SA Tivo) you'd see some of the "masses" keeping D* and opting for TIVO as their DVR.

The diehards will keep their DTIVOs. (And I probably will as well, until wide adoption of HD. I do like the 30 second skip.)


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## nabsltd (Nov 18, 2005)

walters said:


> Wolffpack: 22 shows per day is nothing. It seems too many people think you have to actually watch everything you record.


So, then, since the R15 has been known to often record partial shows as well as audio and video dropout, how does _zortapa_ know that every recording is correct (as he implies) unless he watches them all (and not just fast-forwards through them)?


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

nabsltd said:


> So, then, since the R15 has been known to often record partial shows as well as audio and video dropout, how does _zortapa_ know that every recording is correct (as he implies) unless he watches them all (and not just fast-forwards through them)?


You are correct that I did not want each and every minute of each and every show that I recorded because I was not assessing video and audio dropout. I was just testing to see that each and every recording began and ended at the programmed times. During the several weeks that I was testing my recordings, I did the following:

- I selected each recorded program from the MyVOD list.
- I confirmed that the R15 reported the correct recording length.
- I started playing each program from the beginning to make sure it started at the correct time.
- I jumped to the end of each program to make sure that the recording ended at the correct time.

For each and every recording, the program started at the correct time, ended at the correct time, and was the correct length. Consequently, I concluded that each and every program recorded exactly as scheduled/programmed. The video and audio dropout that you mention are not related to the scheduled recording of programs and, thus, are not relevant to my assessments.

-Eric


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

I too have had very few problems with the new R-15. I am now up to 50 SL's and besides many duplicate recordings :> I am confident that I am not missing anything. I am not 100% sure as I used to check my history and to do list daily but I stopped recently. I do know all my main shows are always there.


Bobman


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

There is an interesting comparison of various antennas here. Can't speak for it's accuracy but as I said, interesting.


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## hdAddict (Jan 10, 2006)

OK, let me get this straight. I have no experience in DVR's but talked to DTV today about ordering DTV DVR. Ran into a snag and started researching. Found many problems on a number of forums. So, some have suggested to get a TVio R10 as it "works". If one does this, will DTV "activate" the unit? How long could it be used on the DTV system? I'm at the point of questioning whether or not to even consider a DVR. Any help/advice appreciated.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

You can still buy, and activate, R10's, however you might have to go online to find one.
-
The general consensus of forum posts is that DirecTV will support the TiVo based DVR's for quite a while to come - years - but you should not expect to see any updates to the TiVo based units.
-
The R15, as you have observed, has some problems. DirecTV is reported to be working on those and is expected to have an update in the near future (weeks). This is the platform to pick going forward with DirecTV, and many are using the R15 without problem right now (myself included).
-
Your choice on which way you go, but I would not hesitate to get a dvr now - you will enjoy the capabilities. 
-
Carl


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## hdAddict (Jan 10, 2006)

Thanks Carl. May just order one tomorrow. Now to decide whether to buy multi-switch or just get a second dish!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

As your screen name is "hdAddict" I'm guessing you may be referring to HD DTivos. In that case you do not want an R10 or R15. The only HD DVR DitecTV offers is the Tivo based HR10-250. I have one and recommend them. The next generation HD DVR from DTV will not be Tivo based and is to be released "mid 2006" according to DTV.

Just make sure you know what you want before calling DTV. Currently DTV will provide either an R15 (SD - NonTivo) or an HR10-250 (HD - Tivo). If you want an SD Tivo based unit (R10) you would have to pick one up locally or look to VE or another online dealer.


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## mbrey (Jan 2, 2006)

hdAddict said:


> OK, let me get this straight. I have no experience in DVR's but talked to DTV today about ordering DTV DVR. Ran into a snag and started researching. Found many problems on a number of forums. So, some have suggested to get a TVio R10 as it "works". If one does this, will DTV "activate" the unit? How long could it be used on the DTV system? I'm at the point of questioning whether or not to even consider a DVR. Any help/advice appreciated.


I too have an R15 with very few problems. The workaround for the slow remote response is simple and flawless. Further (aside from the First Run only not working and recording everything) I am convinced that the occasional missing of a Series Link program that has been reported by some is the result of a specific series of keystrokes when setting up the record, but I haven't figured that one out yet! 

Mike


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

hdAddict said:


> Thanks Carl. May just order one tomorrow. Now to decide whether to buy multi-switch or just get a second dish!


As Wolffpack noted (good catch), if you are looking for HD service or dvr it certainly impacts what you do.
-
With regard to dish or multi-switch, for SD service toss a coin on second dish or multiswitch. However, if you are going HD, you want to look at the new 5-LNB dish, and if you need a multiswitch, there is only one that DirecTV currently specs for use with that dish (it's a 6x8, with two of the six inputs being flexports for additional dishes). If you are going HD, you will probably need a new dish anyway. You can still use the old one to feed SD receivers.
-
Carl


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

mbrey said:


> The workaround for the slow remote response is simple and flawless.


Reminds me of, "They're Real and they're spectacular !" So, pray tell, how does this workaround work?


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## mbrey (Jan 2, 2006)

tall1 said:


> Reminds me of, "They're Real and they're spectacular !" So, pray tell, how does this workaround work?


Here goes:

The #1 complaint I've read here about the slow remote response is the aggravating way that the R15 drops out of the FF or RW functions. For some reason the response to the PLAY button is slow. That's a fact. Don't know why it is that way, but it is.

Simple Solution: I have trained myself to stop the unit by pressing the PAUSE button instead. That response time is instant and will stop you exactly at where you're looking NOW, not 8-20 seconds from now. THEN press Play. Works every time. BTW - this also solved pretty much ALL my audio-sync on playback issues too. Try it you'll like it! :lol:

I posted this at the DTV forum and someone else pointed out that the 8 sec back button also works just as quickly.


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## nabsltd (Nov 18, 2005)

zortapa said:


> For each and every recording, the program started at the correct time, ended at the correct time, and was the correct length.


OK, so what you know for sure is that it seemed to record the start and end correctly, and the UI said the total length was right, but it's possible there were missing parts in the middle. This is unlikely, but it has happened to some people.


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