# OTA Antennas



## WhoRu (Nov 27, 2008)

I live in an area where I don't receive locals from Direct TV (not even SD let alone HD). I applied for Distant Network service but was denied a waiver from my local NBC affiliate.

I'm looking into buying an antenna for OTA reception. The channels I would be trying to pull in have transmitters about 38 miles from me. (One is about 50 miles but also roughly 60 degrees off from the others.

It's a rural area with relatively flat terrain and no tall buildings except a two-story house next to me. The TVFool website rated my channels in the yellow and red categories.

I've been shopping Crutchfield and looking at the Channel Master 3010 and the Terk models, TV55, TV44, and HDTVs. I'd prefer not to put one of those huge antennas on my house for asthetic(spelling?) reasons.

Any advice? Experience? Recommendations?


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## krock918316 (Mar 5, 2007)

Try this one.....

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/terr/ULTRAtenna.html

I have the 8 bay version, and can pick up stations from over 50 miles.


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## Scott in FL (Mar 18, 2008)

Can't tell where Yooper is located, and if your stations are all UHF or a mix of UHF and VHF.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

If all your stations are UHF, I'm very happy with my Winegard 8-bay. You can add an optional preamp to really boost the signal: http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=HD-8800

Don't buy from winegard directly tho. You can find it for $50 including S&H elsewhere on the web. /steve

PS: I'm bitter, because while all my local stations are broadcasting their digital counterparts on UHF right now, on 2/17, a couple are moving back to their VHF frequencies, which means I've got to put up another antenna. Argggggh!!!!!! I believe they are ABC and CW.


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## Scott in FL (Mar 18, 2008)

The new Channel Master 8-bay UHF antenna has some decent gain on the VHF-Hi channels (7-13). I think it's now called the 4228HD. The gain above channel 19 isn't as good as the old version, but it might work for you if your VHF channels are in the high range.

Good luck. I really wish the US television broadcasters and the FCC would have used this opportunity to switch to UHF completely.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

WhoRu said:


> I'm looking into buying an antenna for OTA reception. The channels I would be trying to pull in have transmitters about 38 miles from me. (One is about 50 miles but also roughly 60 degrees off from the others.
> 
> I've been shopping Crutchfield and looking at the Channel Master 3010 and the Terk models, TV55, TV44, and HDTVs. I'd prefer not to put one of those huge antennas on my house for asthetic(spelling?) reasons.
> 
> Any advice? Experience? Recommendations?


Scratch the terks off your list.
Debase yourself of the notion " I'd prefer not to put one of those huge antennas on my house for asthetic(spelling?) reasons" - antennas were designed for outdoor freespace - and you are far enough away that you need all you can get.

Run and post a plot from www.tvfool.com so we can give some better advice. Running and posting both pre and post transition would help us a great deal. Maybe you DON'T need a big antenna if you don't need lower VHF. If you want the 50 mile station - consider a rotor for your outdoor antenna., or maybe one antenna dedicated to that one.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

I have the Channel Master 3010 and about the same milage away. I get the channels in between 55-70% signal strength. I plan on buying the Channel Master 3038 amplifier that is built for this antenna to boost the signal more. Im not sure how good it would work pulling your one in from 50 miles away. I guess it would probably get it fine thought cause I am pulling 2 stations analog from 85 miles away with it now. Good luck.


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## WhoRu (Nov 27, 2008)

From TVFOOL

Pre-Digital Only
call real virt ntw nm pwr path dist
WNMU 13.... 13.1...PBS...18.0...-72.8...2edge...39.8mi.... (yellow).
WLUC 35.... 6.1... NBC...-1.2...-92.1...2edge...38.6mi....(red).
WJMN 48.... 3.1.....CBS...-11.2..-102...2edge...52.2mi.....(gray).

Post- Digital Only

13...13.1..............18.2...-72.7...............................(yellow)
35....6.1................-1.3...-92.1...............................(red)
48....3.1................-11.5..-102.3............................(gray)
WBUP 10...10.1...ABC....-2.6....-93.5..2edge..39.8mi.......(red)

PBS,NBC, and ABC are all at 4 Degrees....CBS is at 62 Degrees

Thanks for all the input.

Just curious, why not theTerks?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

"Just curious, why not theTerks?" - Ever hear of Monster Cables ? - Well, Terk is much the same, except that Monster Cables work (just overpriced).

Now for your antenna - You need an antenna that is good for Upper VHF (channel 7-13) and UHF (14-69) . Terrain is NOT favorable (2nd Edge, LOW signal strength). 

I stand by my assertion - you want your antenna OUTDOORS and UP - 
Winegard (among others) has a new line of antennas out optimized for your type of situation - the HDP 769 series. The largest one of those may not be enough by itself - so you may need a good quality pre-amp as well. 

As for a source - I have been a satisfied customer of Solid Signal and Stark Electronics. Maybe you have a local shop as well. Don't scrimp on cable - some decent quality RG6 will be a must.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

WhoRu said:


> PBS,NBC, and ABC are all at 4 Degrees....CBS is at 62 Degrees


Looks like you're gonna need two antennas.  One VHF/UHF and one UHF for CBS. /steve


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

scooper said:


> "Just curious, why not theTerks?" - Ever hear of Monster Cables ? - Well, Terk is much the same, except that Monster Cables work (just overpriced).


+1

Terk = Overpriced/Under-performance


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Steve said:


> Looks like you're gonna need two antennas.  One VHF/UHF and one UHF for CBS. /steve


If he goes this route - he'll need a Channel 48 Jointenna


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## WhoRu (Nov 27, 2008)

I think I'll just get New York DNS for CBS and concentrate on the others that are all at the same orientation.

Thank You for all of the information everyone. I will take all of your recommendations to heart, research a little more and come up with a plan.

One more question popped into my head today as I was out snowblowing for the umpteenth time this winter. How would these antennas hold up under 8 or 10 inches of heavy wet snow and/or 40mph winds?

Happy New Year!


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

WhoRu said:


> I think I'll just get New York DNS for CBS and concentrate on the others that are all at the same orientation.
> 
> Thank You for all of the information everyone. I will take all of your recommendations to heart, research a little more and come up with a plan.
> 
> ...


Have you ever seen 10" of snow on the element of an antenna? The dia. is too small for much wet snow to build up on and being round there isn't much surface area to sit on. Your mast might be the weakest link when talking wind failures.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

WhoRu said:


> Just curious, why not theTerks?


Terks are overpriced, underperforming antennas. Why do so many retailers push 'em? They have an obscene profit margin.


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## ozonedan (Dec 27, 2005)

joshjr said:


> I have the Channel Master 3010 and about the same milage away. I get the channels in between 55-70% signal strength. I plan on buying the Channel Master 3038 amplifier that is built for this antenna to boost the signal more. Im not sure how good it would work pulling your one in from 50 miles away. I guess it would probably get it fine thought cause I am pulling 2 stations analog from 85 miles away with it now. Good luck.


I'm using a Channel Master 4228 antenna. It's a 3ft x 3ft square mesh. If I turn the antenna South toward Miami, I can pick up all the Miami stations. Miami is about 65 miles away. I am not using any amplification.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

ozonedan said:


> I'm using a Channel Master 4228 antenna. It's a 3ft x 3ft square mesh. If I turn the antenna South toward Miami, I can pick up all the Miami stations. Miami is about 65 miles away. I am not using any amplification.


Yeah well try pointing it towards Miami, Oklahoma and then let me know how it goes lol. I live in Miami, Oklahoma.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

If you're in Miami, *Oklahoma*, you need to be pointing it _*away*_ from there, if you want to pick up any TV.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

ozonedan said:


> I'm using a Channel Master 4228 antenna. It's a 3ft x 3ft square mesh. If I turn the antenna South toward Miami, I can pick up all the Miami stations. Miami is about 65 miles away. I am not using any amplification.


Hopefully all your stations will stay UHF after 2/17.

I just double-checked at antennaweb.org, and now I see that 3 of mine are going to switch their UHF digital feeds over to their current VHF assignments! As I noted above, my Winegard 8-bay, similar to your 4228, is only UHF. /steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I just tried it for my address, and unless I'm missing something, it doesn't show the post 2/17 digital channel assignments, which may change for some of your stations. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.  You'll need to know this to determine what type of antenna to buy (UHF only, or UHF/VHF).

antennaweb.org shows both in the results.

/steve


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

Steve said:


> ... my Winegard 8-bay, similar to your 4228, is only UHF. /steve


The 4228 (at least the old model made in the US) works pretty well for VHF channels 7 thru 13. I am getting channels 9, 10 & 13 with mine just fine. The towers range from 45 to 70 miles away.

Not sure about the winegard 8bay.

You can check your city's final channel assignments at:
http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Steve said:


> I just tried it for my address, and unless I'm missing something, it doesn't show the post 2/17 digital channel assignments, which may change for some of your stations. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.  You'll need to know this to determine what type of antenna to buy (UHF only, or UHF/VHF).
> 
> antennaweb.org shows both in the results.
> 
> /steve


There's 2 different reports at tvfool.com - pre transition and POST Transition. Go try it again.... and look just a little lower...


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

scooper said:


> There's 2 different reports at tvfool.com - pre transition and POST Transition. Go try it again.... and look just a little lower...


Thanks. I missed that clicking the POST radio button actually changed the image below. I thought it only allowed you to select it for downloading and viewing outside the browser.

I guess I was expecting it to work more along the lines of antennaweb.org, where pre- and post- are combined onto one results chart. /steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

arxaw said:


> The 4228 (at least the old model made in the US) works pretty well for VHF channels 7 thru 13. I am getting channels 9, 10 & 13 with mine just fine. The towers range from 45 to 70 miles away.
> 
> Not sure about the winegard 8bay.
> 
> ...


Maybe there's hope for me too, then, because like yours, mine is also _technically _spec'd as UHF-only. I would only need to receive 7-13 as well. 7 is a key one, tho. That's ABC in my area. /steve


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## Scott in FL (Mar 18, 2008)

arxaw said:


> The 4228 (at least the old model made in the US) works pretty well for VHF channels 7 thru 13.


Here are the VHF-Hi specs for the new 4228HD:

CHANNEL	GAIN BEAMWIDTH, F/B	
7 4.6 dB	30deg, 10dB	
9 5.3 dB	72deg, 6dB
11 4.7 dB	136deg, 7dB	
13 3.4 dB	74deg, 9dB

Gain is referenced to a tuned dipole.
Beamwidth is 3 dB down points.

Not bad for VHF-Hi channels. Unfortunately, the new 4228HD has less gain above channel 19.


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## ozonedan (Dec 27, 2005)

joshjr said:


> Yeah well try pointing it towards Miami, Oklahoma and then let me know how it goes lol. I live in Miami, Oklahoma.


I was only pointing out the distance that I am receiving a good signal. I know you don't live in Miami, Florida!


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## Pepster (Oct 29, 2008)

Steve said:


> Maybe there's hope for me too, then, because like yours, mine is also _technically _spec'd as UHF-only. I would only need to receive 7-13 as well. 7 is a key one, tho. That's ABC in my area. /steve


I'm looking at that table. What does flash-cut mean? In addition to that question, I live in an apartment building on the first floor. I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I have an indoor OTA. I having problems picking up some of the stations in my area. I'm wondering if all of the stations in my area sending digital signals putting them out at full power already, or will they be able to increase power after the transition occurs to improve chances of picking up their signal.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Flashcut - sudden changeover.

As it relates to the DTV transition - 
2359 channel 11 signs off analog
0000 channel 11 signs on digital (actual RF channels)


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

Scott in FL said:


> Here are the VHF-Hi specs for the new 4228HD:
> CHANNEL	GAIN BEAMWIDTH, F/B
> 7 4.6 dB	30deg, 10dB
> 9 5.3 dB	72deg, 6dB
> ...


Interesting, where did you get these numbers?



Pepster said:


> I'm looking at that table. What does flash-cut mean?
> 
> In addition to that question,...I'm wondering if all of the stations in my area sending digital signals putting them out at full power already


 In this case, Flash Cut means they are shutting down analog on a particular frequency and reusing the frequency for digital.

If power increases are planned for stations in your town, they should be listed in the info at the rabbitears link I posted.


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## Scott in FL (Mar 18, 2008)

arxaw said:


> Interesting, where did you get these numbers?


I sent an e-mail to Channel Master and they replied.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

I was hoping someone besides CM had test results.


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## danallen (Aug 21, 2007)

I too have been denied for NBC for four times. I have an OTA mounted rooftop with pre-amp, amp and channel master rotor. Due to the terrian here in Staunton, VA, located in the Shenandoah Valley I am in fact an unserved household by NBC. Way too many mountains and valleys for the signal path to cross. Direct has sent yet another waiver request and if denied again, I requested from my local NBC station a waiver appeal just in case I need to pursue it yet again. I guess my point is, even with an OTA you might not get NBC. Keep bugging them and prove your point-you are an unserved household from all of their programs- the FCC does not like that.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

danallen said:


> I too have been denied for NBC for four times. I have an OTA mounted rooftop with pre-amp, amp and channel master rotor. Due to the terrian here in Staunton, VA, located in the Shenandoah Valley I am in fact an unserved household by NBC. Way too many mountains and valleys for the signal path to cross. Direct has sent yet another waiver request and if denied again, I requested from my local NBC station a waiver appeal just in case I need to pursue it yet again. I guess my point is, even with an OTA you might not get NBC. Keep bugging them and prove your point-you are an unserved household from all of their programs- the FCC does not like that.


Not sure if you are after SD locals or HD locals but here is what you can do. D* can send you paperwork for a site survey test. D* & the affiliate will agree on a tester and they will come out to test the signal strength in your yard. No here is where it gets interesting. It does not cost you anything to have them test for SD signal strength. If you qualify for DNS due to signal strength then the affiliate will pay for the test and D* has the approval to grant the waiver.

If its HD locals you are wanting then you still have to go through the proper channels but you are reaponsible for paying for the test. It is my understanding that test can be anywhere from $200-800. Then it would work the same way as the other. If the test proves you dont get a strong enough signal then you will be granted the HD DNS feed. Good luck with it and let us know how it turns out.


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## WhoRu (Nov 27, 2008)

joshjr said:


> Not sure if you are after SD locals or HD locals but here is what you can do. D* can send you paperwork for a site survey test. D* & the affiliate will agree on a tester and they will come out to test the signal strength in your yard. No here is where it gets interesting. It does not cost you anything to have them test for SD signal strength. If you qualify for DNS due to signal strength then the affiliate will pay for the test and D* has the approval to grant the waiver.
> 
> If you qualify the affiliate pays for the test.
> 
> Who pays if you don't qualify due to signal strength?


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

WhoRu said:


> joshjr said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if you are after SD locals or HD locals but here is what you can do. D* can send you paperwork for a site survey test. D* & the affiliate will agree on a tester and they will come out to test the signal strength in your yard. No here is where it gets interesting. It does not cost you anything to have them test for SD signal strength. If you qualify for DNS due to signal strength then the affiliate will pay for the test and D* has the approval to grant the waiver.
> ...


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