# 211 HD quality if poor



## mstar

Hi 
I upgraded from a Dish 311 to VIP211 and upgraded the wiring and dish to HD. I did not have a an HD TV at the time but now do.
I am very disappointed in the quality of HD Tv,

I have made sure the box was set to 1080i, I have tried both HDMI cable and component and see similar defects.
I am set to HD stations not SD. I have tested Bluray and the TVs display sharp images.
I have tried 4 different brands of 32" 1080p and 720p TVs
Quantum, Sceptre, Vizio,RCA


All that say 1080i look blury, or pixelated close up faces look blochy.graphicy
I am disappointed in what they call HD. 
Is this the the best Dish gets? I understand different channels broadcast different qualities but I do not know how any one can say this is HD quality. 
I also see interlace lines on various feeds and commercials that appear if something moves. 

If you knwo how to fix this or what to have Dish do about it, let me know. I wil tell you I thnk my images looked shaper on my old 480 tv. 
Any help is appreciated


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## Mike.H_DISHNetwork

mstar said:


> Hi
> I upgraded from a Dish 311 to VIP211 and upgraded the wiring and dish to HD. I did not have a an HD TV at the time but now do.
> I am very disappointed in the quality of HD Tv,
> 
> I have made sure the box was set to 1080i, I have tried both HDMI cable and component and see similar defects.
> I am set to HD stations not SD. I have tested Bluray and the TVs display sharp images.
> I have tried 4 different brands of 32" 1080p and 720p TVs
> Quantum, Sceptre, Vizio,RCA
> 
> All that say 1080i look blury, or pixelated close up faces look blochy.graphicy
> I am disappointed in what they call HD.
> Is this the the best Dish gets? I understand different channels broadcast different qualities but I do not know how any one can say this is HD quality.
> I also see interlace lines on various feeds and commercials that appear if something moves.
> 
> If you knwo how to fix this or what to have Dish do about it, let me know. I wil tell you I thnk my images looked shaper on my old 480 tv.
> Any help is appreciated


Mstar, with the VIP211 receiver set at 1080i and the aspect ratio set at 16x9. Since you're getting a good picture with the Blu-ray player use that HDMI cable for the receiver to see if you get a better picture. If you have any further questions please PM me.


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## VDP07

Make sure, using the "format" button on your remote, that your HD channels are not stretched or zoomed.


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## mstar

Yes all 3 TVs are on Normal
So Dish installer was here today and he brought a 211K where as the other s are 211s, I notice a SMALL increase in clarity.

But by now means do I feel Dish HD is clear ,sharp and superior to SD. Colors pop more , graphics and non moving images are fine but I see a blur to faces and then whe it comes to smaller faces say in a show like THE VIEW, the faces can be pixelated or blotchy. 

As I said, the 211K is a little better so having Dish swap the 211s which I only had running 1 month. The tech went into the menu and said my signal is great .
He even added stuff the other installer did not. He changed the barrels in the wall connections to the Hi frequency ones put a ground block in. Not that it improved quality.

I do not know what the quality should be from Dish, Maybe I should never have thought it would be sharp like blu ray but I thought it would have to be better than this. The further away you are I think it is only an illusion of qualit due to the brighter colors, and higher contrast Stand 3 feat and if you ask me my laptop looks clearer. 

It would be one thing if it was the pixelation but another to have that and a slight blur to the image. I wish I had someone else with DISH HD so I could go and see if theirs is the same or not. Then I might know if there is something still wrong with the install or if that is the best it can get.


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## Stewart Vernon

How close do you sit to your TV?

If I sit within a foot of my 60" TV, the HD looks horrible... as it should at that range. IF I walk back 6-8 feet I reach the sweet spot where the image is still large but very sharp.

Blu-rays are going to be potentially better for most things, assuming high-quality encoding on the Blu-rays and good source material... but I'm quite happy with my Dish HD when viewed from the reasonable viewing distance.

Since you said "close up faces look blurry" it makes me think perhaps you are too close to the screen.


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## Jim5506

I have 3 211s and they all have very sharp excellent HD pictures.

Change the HD setting back to 480p then reboot the receiver and then change it back to 1080i, I have heard of instances where the chip was "stuck" in the default 480p setting even when it was changed and that sometimes bumps it out of 480p.

My 211s are almost as good a picture as my 722k, a little bit behind my Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, there has got to be something wrong somewhere.

How large is your display and how close are you to it?

Even at close range 2-3 ft on my Sony projector @ 7 ft diag on the wall, the picture is always as clear as could be expected and from 10 ft away it's like watching through a window.

Are you using the same input on the TV for the Blu-Ray as you do for the 211 HDMI? Some TVs have discrete input settings.

Did the tech check the signal levels to make sure you weren't on the lower range of signal strength? There should be no blockiness or blotchiness on faces.

1080i WILL show interlace lines, but you have to really look closely to see them, just because it is interlaced, not progressive.


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## mstar

Thanks for the suggestions.
These are 32" Tvs so one/
The 480 to 1080 technique did not change anything but worth a try.

Yes I tried the HDMI in all the ports to be sure it was not a HDMI issue and even component. 
The tech did say my signal is very good.
He could see what I was saying but it seemed to bother him less than me. 

Yes I am looking at the tv within 2 feet and can see it.
Maybe some can exlain WHY it would not look sharp up close?

So then HD is an illusion only obtained by high contrast, bright colors and distance? But then why does a blu ray look better than the Dish service at the same distance? 

And why would the tech, who was standing a l couple feet back from me, say he saw it but that there was nothing he could suggest?


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## Stewart Vernon

If you are sitting 2 feet from the screen, almost anything is going to have flaws.

The Blu-rays will look better because they have higher bitrates and less compression than the Dish OR OTA broadcasts.

But sitting 2 feet from the screen you should be able to see some flaws in some Blu-rays as well on a 32" screen.

Remember, the highest resolution we are talking here is 1920x1080... I sit about 1.5-2 ft. from my 24" computer monitor but if I had a 32" computer monitor I would need to back up at least another foot or two so as not to see blockiness even with high-quality pictures.

I saw a calculation somewhere that recommends a viewing distance of roughly 1.5-2x the diagonal measure of your HDTV.

So... a 32" HDTV would be roughly 48-64" or 4-6 ft away.


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## mstar

Hi
I should have pointed out even at 4-6 feet I can see defects. That is why stood closer to determine what I was seeing.

I just do not know how to describe it and not sure why the tech did not think there was anything to do about it. 

I also wonder if the 211 211K does worse than 722? If so why?

Is it possible that the new TVs I picked up just are not high enough quality in how they filter and process?

What channel is known to have the best quality that I can check if it is just hte broadcasts. I see the issue very evident on all moring stations 2-13
But even CNN has a slight blur and some pixelation during movement. 

It has been very hard to tell what the quality of my service/hook up is without knowing what each station and each commerical is really broadcasting at.
And no matter if you have a 720p TV, if you hit the info button it will say 1080i 
Some are saying thier signal is SHARP near blue ray. I am saying that day time tv like Doctor OZ, the morning shows and night time news are probably the worst viewing. 

I think some are fooled since if you get a graphic up it has a sharpter look but look at the faces and movement and I see all sorts of problems and a blur that was not there on the old 480p tv even when flipping between SD HD which had no change except format. 
So I am not seeing why I upgraded to HD if this is as good as it gets

BTW I should point out I am on the Easter Arc so wonder if other areas could be a reason and would be good to hear from Easter Arc folks in North NJ.


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## altidude

Could it be a noise reduction feature in your TV? I've played around with noise reduction on my TV and I didn't like the result so I turned it off. I saw a lot of what you're describing above with noise reduction on.

My 211k looks great in 1080i HD on a Vizio 32 inch in normal mode, no noise reduction applied.

In my specific case the 211k equipped TV looks much better than the 722k equipped TV but it's the TV, not the receiver, making the difference so it's not really a good comparison. I still have an older 52" RPTV on the 722k setup and the 211k is a newer 32" LCD TV.


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## mstar

Thanks for the input.
I turned off all noise and mpeg noise reduction and played with itand did not really see any difference when on or off on all the TVs.
This is frustrating. Would photos, if I cna get them help?


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## Stewart Vernon

Photos might help... at least they would help if they are accurate for us to see if what you are seeing is what we normally see.


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## satcrazy

Jim5506 said:


> I have 3 211s and they all have very sharp excellent HD pictures.
> 
> Change the HD setting back to 480p then reboot the receiver and then change it back to 1080i, I have heard of instances where the chip was "stuck" in the default 480p setting even when it was changed and that sometimes bumps it out of 480p.
> 
> My 211s are almost as good a picture as my 722k, a little bit behind my Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, there has got to be something wrong somewhere.
> 
> How large is your display and how close are you to it?
> 
> Even at close range 2-3 ft on my Sony projector @ 7 ft diag on the wall, the picture is always as clear as could be expected and from 10 ft away it's like watching through a window.
> 
> Are you using the same input on the TV for the Blu-Ray as you do for the 211 HDMI? Some TVs have discrete input settings.
> 
> Did the tech check the signal levels to make sure you weren't on the lower range of signal strength? There should be no blockiness or blotchiness on faces.
> 
> 1080i WILL show interlace lines, but you have to really look closely to see them, just because it is interlaced, not progressive.


Signal strength can cause "blotchy" faces? Interesting. I notice that every so often on SD broadcasts. What do you consider decent signal strength? [ so I have something to go by] I'm on west arc.

thanks


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## gtal98

mstar said:


> I see the issue very evident on all moring stations 2-13
> But even CNN has a slight blur and some pixelation during movement


For the sake of comparisons only use the nationally broadcast channels (105 and higher). Everyone has different local channels which can all output different levels of quality. The methods Dish uses to uplink the local channels in each market varies with different results as well.

What brand of TV do you have? I am inclined to think it's something in your TV settings. Have you tried changing the output resolution to 720p? Maybe your TV doesn't do well with interlaced signals? (Blu-ray would be 1080p)


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## tampa8

Just to clarify-
When you switch the receiver to 480, do a hard reset - pull the plug. After about 2 minutes plug it back in and when it is ready switch back to 1080I.

When formatting was mentioned I think you responded that the TV was formatted correctly. What was meant, is the Dish receiver formatted correctly....

Hope you find what is wrong, because unless you sit way too close as with virtually any carrier, the picture should look good. 
Signal strength plays no role in clarity for a digital receiver, other than it could freeze or briefly freeze the picture.


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## Rduce

I have a 211K connected to a 32" LG and the picture is amazing! Perhaps the problem is with the low end sets you are trying to use it with??


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## davejacobson

Pixelation during fast motion? Sounds like a cheap tv to me that cant keep up.Don't compare shows on the networks especially during the day.A lot of those show are still in SD even if you are on a HD channel.Just because it says HD in the corner doesn't mean the show is HD.SD on some LCD sets look bad. The pic can be blurry and cartoon like in SD. Test pix on the national news channels, while their not always 100% HD on all the storys the live news broadcasters are.


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## mstar

This is frustrating. Dish should not list it as an HD station if it is not HD quality. PERIOD! All the morining talk shows are low quality. During wide shots you can really see it. close up maybe 10 feet bac you think it is sharp but move in a little and see it is blurry. I do a little photography so know what is in focus and what is not.

I do not feel it is acceptable to say not to compare day time network TV since that is then wasting half my subscription for crap that looks much better in 480 on a 480 tv. Why did I bother upgrading?

Is it the quality of the TVs? Well if I only had ONE TV that is one thing but to see it on ALL 4 tvs tried, one has to wonder.

The fact it IS on network news and CNN as well. The wider the shot the more degraded the faces. So much for HD quality. 

Over the weekend I thought the quality magicially improved. Now download a calibration Blu ray (think it was AVS) so thought that helped. I did the remaining 3 TVs I am testing. 
Even CBS Sunday morning had a better quality so thought maybe Dish flipped a switch or the calibration helped hide the errors
. But come Monday, the morning shows all suffer in quality. Oh graphics overlayed looked sharp and maybe why some are being tricked to think the image is sharp. But look at the faces please or the motions.

Now I understand that the Sceptre and the Quantum are lower quality but they had hundreds of positive reviews. 
is RCA and Vizio considered low end? The RCA does do a tad better but the defects are still there. Someone mentioned LG but not the model and assume not all LG are made equal, right?

The Vizio was a 720p LED E series and $100 more and it had the same problems as well as terrible viewing angles. 

If you have recommendations on what I can find at Walmart in up to a 42" to try . so I can return it. (my walmart has to open every box anyway and send it back to the manufacturer , even if you did not open it and had all seals, since someone returned rocks last year. So I have no issue TESTING a TV) 32" is what I need to fit in my cabinet .

I really did not think I needed 120 hz to watch the Today show but it seems some are thinking that is what is needed. 

Thanks for the continued help.


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## mstar

Oh as for the photos I tried a few ways but the digital camera picks up the screen information for lack of a better way to describe it. Either lines or boxes. do not know if you call that a filter but there is some overlay that wil show up when the camera shoots the screen, even with the image frozen with the freeze button.

So I do not know how to shoot an LCD screen to show you as the eye sees it. 
Any advice on that is appreciated.

I have two 211k coming they say today to swap for the 211. The one I had I had to give to my tenant to use so was not using that.

It would be very disappointing to find that all the network shows are going to suffer. Didnt Dish used to provide a non local feed for shows on a higher channel number? I cant not find them if there are there and different. If they are just copies of the local feeds than are you saying NY feeds are garbage during the day and evening news?

Any Northern NJ folks out there willing to let me see your feed or test a TV?


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## Stewart Vernon

Without seeing what you are talking about it is going to be very difficult to diagnose much further. It's hard to say if you have a problem, or poor HDTVs (are you sure they are HDTVs by the way? There are some EDTVs that were sold in the smaller screen sizes).

Seeing what you are seeing might trigger someone to suggest something we haven't yet. Short of that, if your TVs and receiver are setup correctly and the cables are good and you are sitting at least a few feet away... then it seems like all should be well.

You could make sure you are in "Normal" and not a zoomed mode. You might need to check your TV settings as well as the "*" mode button on the Dish remote to make sure all your devices are not doing any kind of zooming.


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## Rduce

mstar said:


> This is frustrating. Dish should not list it as an HD station if it is not HD quality. PERIOD! All the morining talk shows are low quality. During wide shots you can really see it. close up maybe 10 feet bac you think it is sharp but move in a little and see it is blurry. I do a little photography so know what is in focus and what is not.
> 
> I do not feel it is acceptable to say not to compare day time network TV since that is then wasting half my subscription for crap that looks much better in 480 on a 480 tv. Why did I bother upgrading?
> 
> Is it the quality of the TVs? Well if I only had ONE TV that is one thing but to see it on ALL 4 tvs tried, one has to wonder.
> 
> The fact it IS on network news and CNN as well. The wider the shot the more degraded the faces. So much for HD quality.
> 
> Over the weekend I thought the quality magicially improved. Now download a calibration Blu ray (think it was AVS) so thought that helped. I did the remaining 3 TVs I am testing.
> Even CBS Sunday morning had a better quality so thought maybe Dish flipped a switch or the calibration helped hide the errors
> . But come Monday, the morning shows all suffer in quality. Oh graphics overlayed looked sharp and maybe why some are being tricked to think the image is sharp. But look at the faces please or the motions.
> 
> Now I understand that the Sceptre and the Quantum are lower quality but they had hundreds of positive reviews.
> is RCA and Vizio considered low end? The RCA does do a tad better but the defects are still there. Someone mentioned LG but not the model and assume not all LG are made equal, right?
> 
> The Vizio was a 720p LED E series and $100 more and it had the same problems as well as terrible viewing angles.
> 
> If you have recommendations on what I can find at Walmart in up to a 42" to try . so I can return it. (my walmart has to open every box anyway and send it back to the manufacturer , even if you did not open it and had all seals, since someone returned rocks last year. So I have no issue TESTING a TV) 32" is what I need to fit in my cabinet .
> 
> I really did not think I needed 120 hz to watch the Today show but it seems some are thinking that is what is needed.
> 
> Thanks for the continued help.


Sceptre LCD TVs are typically amongst the lowest priced on the market for models of comparable size and features, which translates to low end. Quantum is about the same.

Vizio is in the same general league, however, has stepped up their quality control as of late and has positioned themselves to be the number 1 seller of LCD televisions in the United States. Yet, their products are still considered substandard against the likes of Sony, Samsung and Panasonic.

The RCA brand is not your grandfathers RCA. It is now simply a brand name owned by Thomson, a French company that owns the brand name and the televisions are made by a company called ON under license. Once again, they specialize in low priced units.

A good rule of thumb is if it is sold at Wal-Mart it is going to be low end. Even brand name sets, for the most part, at Wal-Mart are made for a specific price point that Wal-Mart is looking for. This means the manufacturer has made some sort of sacrifice in the production of said item.


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## mstar

Well that is all fine and well to trash all 4 TVs that all display Dish signal equal, but may I recommend a follow up on what brands are then to go with and WHY?
My concern is that no matter what brand I pick, some techy will come along and post "Oh that model is the lowest quality of there brand." So to avoid this I guess I need a list of TVs I can trust will not get trashed automatically. Walmart also sells LG, Sony, and other "name brands" You can not tell me they are all junk just because Walmart carries them. I understand many times models made for walmart can use lower end parts but if the models are sold in other stores how likely it it that just becuase Walmart has it, it is junk?

Please suggest brands with 32" models that are KNOWN high quality so I can rule in or out the TV once and for all. Just to say the 4 I have tested are junk, when hundreds review the picture quality as good-great, is not valid without suggesting models that are better.

And I am still having trouble with the fact Blu rays look good on all 4 so how can it be the TVs. That was the first test I thought, test a blu ray not the dish signal to demonstrate a LCD quality or lack there of. IF a movie doe snot do it but The Daily Show does show issues, it is really the Tv's fault? 

Thanks.


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## Stewart Vernon

Without being able to see what you are seeing, honestly, I don't know what else to suggest that hasn't already been suggested.

My Dish HD looks fine. Yes, some channels and content are better than other... and my Blu-rays are generally superior... but I don't have the complaints you have... so outside of the general suggestions, we would need to see what you are seeing in order to determine if the limitation is your HDTVs or something else.


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## Rduce

mstar said:


> Well that is all fine and well to trash all 4 TVs that all display Dish signal equal, but may I recommend a follow up on what brands are then to go with and WHY?
> My concern is that no matter what brand I pick, some techy will come along and post "Oh that model is the lowest quality of there brand." So to avoid this I guess I need a list of TVs I can trust will not get trashed automatically. Walmart also sells LG, Sony, and other "name brands" You can not tell me they are all junk just because Walmart carries them. I understand many times models made for walmart can use lower end parts but if the models are sold in other stores how likely it it that just becuase Walmart has it, it is junk?
> 
> Please suggest brands with 32" models that are KNOWN high quality so I can rule in or out the TV once and for all. Just to say the 4 I have tested are junk, when hundreds review the picture quality as good-great, is not valid without suggesting models that are better.
> 
> And I am still having trouble with the fact Blu rays look good on all 4 so how can it be the TVs. That was the first test I thought, test a blu ray not the dish signal to demonstrate a LCD quality or lack there of. IF a movie doe snot do it but The Daily Show does show issues, it is really the Tv's fault?
> 
> Thanks.


Well, as I have said, I have my 211K hooked to a 14 month old 32" LG LE5400 1080i set in my bedroom and the picture is stunning. Prior to that I had it hooked to an 4 year old 22" Samsung 720P, (got it at a local discount store that I have warned you about ) sorry I cannot recall the model and it was just okay. I got rid of the bedroom set after I brought the 211K out and hooked it to my 55" Sony living room set and saw that the picture on that set was equally stunning.

This is why I feel confident that a marginally built set is not going to look as good. I spent a great deal of time to research television sets a year ago before I replaced my bedroom set. The Internet is a wondrous thing and I probably spent way too much time looking at options and sets, reading about where LCD screens are made and by whom. Which ones were troublesome, best picture quality and such!

I then went to Best Buy and played with all the features and once I figured out which one was going to be the one, I found it online and ordered it. I would NEVER buy a television from Wal-Mart and expect it to stand up to my finicky expectations.


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## satcrazy

I bought a 32" lcd panasonic from Kmart for the bedroom and the picture is quite good for a lcd. [ 1080p]

It's on tv2 on a 222k receiver. [ this is SD only, by the way]

Could be your tv.

I transitioned from a 480p sony crt to a 1080p plasma. It took some getting use to. I too thought the 480p had no issues [ it didn't] didn't matter where you sat. It eventually died, and believe me I was convinced anything else wouldn't be as good. Wrong.

When I watched the world series [ Always HD] I was a convert.

If you are seeing motion blur on CNN, it realy sounds like your tv. How is your Tenant's picture by the way?

If you had access to a higher end tv to test, you could rule [ in or out] the cheap TV theory.
Don't be offended when low- end is mentioned, the forums have lots of people who are good with their Vizio's.


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## John79605

Isn't 5710 Test the channel to tune to when HD picture quality is questioned? It seems to always be benchmark quality.


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## mstar

Thanks but see a problem arising.ONe says his Kmart Tvs work just fine and other says stay away from box store TVs

As for as shopping around, Well I did hta tfirst. Iw as in the famous Best Buy onlhy to be disappointed. First off there test feeds look horrible. They admit to only using 720p and that they have so many sets hooked up that their feeds do not show the best quality (at least at the BB was at.)

It seems on issue is he 32" size is not a focus of these companies and quality. Far to many claim this is "bed room size" Sadly not one room in my house would fit a giant 55" I am not 85 years old, can still see just fine on a 32", it is plenty big in my living room.

Also I would like more of you to state if you are on the Easter or Western Arc Since some are claiming it is the fault of the NY who is my local stations then so be it but I will not accept it until I hear for more eastern arc

BTW for all those praising the quality have you checked the stations and shows I keep mentioning. It would seem most here are men with day jobs who might not ever turn on the TV nor view it up close.

And again, can some explain to me WHY it is MY TVs (plaural) that are taking the blame when Blu rays perform well. Isnt the measure of the TV watching the TV in 1080p? If the defects are not there on a blu ray then why is it the TVs fault not the quality of the Dish signal? 

Beleve me I would LOVE to show you photos. But as I said before, I tried taking photos and the digial camera picks up an overlay that then does not allow one to see the screen detail.
If anyone wants to suggest how to shoot the image as the eye sees it, please post.

Thanks again guys.


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## gtal98

mstar said:


> Thanks but see a problem arising.ONe says his Kmart Tvs work just fine and other says stay away from box store TVs


Where the TV comes from is not important they just resell what they buy from the manufacturer - just make sure research by specific model numbers, not brand and size.



mstar said:


> And again, can some explain to me WHY it is MY TVs (plaural) that are taking the blame when Blu rays perform well. Isnt the measure of the TV watching the TV in 1080p? If the defects are not there on a blu ray then why is it the TVs fault not the quality of the Dish signal?


The reason we are all suggesting your TVs is because not a single one of us have a complaint about our picture quality. And the chances of you having 3 or 4 "bad" 211's all at one house are astronomical. So either you are the pickiest customer ever, or some common TV setting is incorrect.

Time to go back to basics and make sure we're not overlooking something stupid, so please forgive the following question: Are you actually subscribing to HD programming from Dish? Just adding HDTV's doesn't instantly give you HD - you still have to subscribe to it from through Dish. I would think you have it given you upgraded receivers, but it's the only other common thing I can think of. When you pull up the guide does it show "HD" next to the channel number for 105, 140, 200? Depending on how your guide is set you may see duplicates of each channel too - as in two lines both saying 105 - one has the "HD" logo, one does not. See 140 in the picture below:










Beyond this, I'm out of suggestions, it's hard to troubleshoot something visual over the internet. You may want to call Dish again, and request a manager come out and take a look. Your picture quality should not be poor, ours aren't.


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## mstar

Yes I have HD, understand I have had a tech come 3 times now for the HD up. First to install , second to add a box third to switch to the 211ks I paid $102 to Dish it up to HD to stay off contract so belive me, I know I have HD.

This time he was there during the day and DID see what I see but not sure why it is happening. THe 211ks do appear to do better.

I understand what you are saying about 2 boxes not being the issue but then you seem to miss my point that 4 different brands of TV also cant all be the problem either.Unless they are all using the same parts, I do not see how 4 brands can produce the same results and the the cause. 

If I cna find a brand in my size you guys will sign off as being good, then at least I can try that and find out one way or the other.

So at his point, all I can say is the tech did see the defects, mostly in moving faces and a sleight out of focus look on higher channels like CNN.
As I said, I feel there was an improvement with the 211k butnto sure if that is just in my head. But I am not crazy, there is a defect and it is trouble shooting that is the problem. I do not live near allot of stores and that is also a problem in trouble shooting. AND Blu Ray does not show the defects in faces so then I am still thinking the TVs have less to do with it than what Dish is calling HD and what it really is.


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## Rduce

mstar said:


> Yes I have HD, understand I have had a tech come 3 times now for the HD up. First to install , second to add a box third to switch to the 211ks I paid $102 to Dish it up to HD to stay off contract so belive me, I know I have HD.
> 
> This time he was there during the day and DID see what I see but not sure why it is happening. THe 211ks do appear to do better.
> 
> I understand what you are saying about 2 boxes not being the issue but then you seem to miss my point that 4 different brands of TV also cant all be the problem either.Unless they are all using the same parts, I do not see how 4 brands can produce the same results and the the cause.
> 
> If I cna find a brand in my size you guys will sign off as being good, then at least I can try that and find out one way or the other.
> 
> So at his point, all I can say is the tech did see the defects, mostly in moving faces and a sleight out of focus look on higher channels like CNN.
> As I said, I feel there was an improvement with the 211k butnto sure if that is just in my head. But I am not crazy, there is a defect and it is trouble shooting that is the problem. I do not live near allot of stores and that is also a problem in trouble shooting. AND Blu Ray does not show the defects in faces so then I am still thinking the TVs have less to do with it than what Dish is calling HD and what it really is.


Actually, you may find this hard to believe but there are only a handful of companies that produce LCD panels and most of the big name brands do not manufacture their own, Sony comes to mind. LG, Sharp and Panasonic from what I recall made their own and sell to others, at least a year and a half ago.

So, and believe me when I say because I found myself doing this, you begin searching for particular model numbers and sometimes serial numbers looking for the more desirable manufacturers panel.

I found myself in full tilt loco searching for the then most sought panel at the time, IPS made by Hitachi, as having the best color reproduction and viewing angles; there are even websites that will tell you how to determine if you have one of these panels in your television.

Apparently, at the time, you might not get the panel you wanted because the manufacture gets their panels from so many different places.

I did not mean to tell you not to shop at Wal-Mart, just do not buy a television set from them and expect it to be like getting one from the Magnolia section at Best Buy.


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## mstar

Thank you for any suggestion on TV "who really makes it" sites,
recommendations on 32" that are not going to get slammed if I say it does not work,

Thank you for any ways to take the photograph without the lines and patterns appearing on the photo. My eye can not see them but then they show up on the photo and mask the defects so I can not show you. 
-------------------
If it is the day time shows, then this is not acceptable for Dish to call it HD. The Tech said pointing a dish a little different would not fix that. True? I thought dish placement was crucial. Signals strength is 57-62 on various HD channels. Yes Discovery and above 105 are better , depending on the age of the show but not perfect, just better STILL images on network shows do have a sharpness. But as soon as you see the faces they are blocky, graphic digitized and blurry. The wider the camera angle the worse it looks. 

I have now picked up a Sony Bravia 720p BX33. I know it is on the lower end but it is all that is available without actual model suggestions.
And guess what, it actual is WORSE than some of the trashed no names.

Also network prime time shows also have issues. It is not just daytime shows.

Any suggestions how to get proof to you and maybe I am just getting untrained techs but I need to wrap this up soon am just not seeing it being the TVs but the quality of the DISH signal. (or what dish is getting and packaging as HD when i is not really)

I am not trying to be rude to anyone who has posted suggestions. I thank you greatly for all the input.


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## mstar

Mike from DISH that posts here. He set up a visit from a field manager to check the install. While he requested it, unfortunately, The original tech who installed the HD dish came out. 
He said they saw the request for a field manager but ignored it. Since the original installer came out, he tried another HDMI cable and checked the on screen signal level

*HE DID see the issue of pixelated faces* but He called it "a tracking issue".

He felt the 211ks were better than the 211 in general, but had no idea what to do about the issue. He said it might be the TV since he had no other answer.

I suspect it is DISH and how they are compressing and decompressing the signal or at least how well it is not done in a 211K. They only way to know for certain is to try a different box. But the tech said he would have to activate a box via a work order to try that, Since maybe many of you are using a 722, I wonder if those are better or if people have not gone up close enough to see the actual defects.

*On that point I would say it is wrong to ask me how close I sit since I was in Best buy with 720 feeds, right up a 1 foot away and did not see the same issues. Yes I see some of the digitized aspects but that is not the issue I have been trying to describe. Just know that I did not see such issues with the TVs in the store even up close which again, points back to the quality of the DISH NETWORK HD broadcasts or signal processing there of.
*

To finally put this TV issue to rest I have now put many miles on my car to try two NAME brands.

First was the LG 32CS560 which is the only model 1080p TV that LG sells in that size. Even after calibration with their on board tool and then Disney Wow blu ray, that set looked worse than the Quantum View Walmart brand!

So I drove back and picked up what I hope is the final proof it is not my TVs
Sumsung UN32ES6500F version TH01
TH01 should be an actual samsung panel from what I read. This tv is a $750 TV.

This is an LED 1080p, 3D, Smart TV 120hz processing speed. So if this is a tracking issue on the TV issue this should then make movement of faces talking clearer, right?

After calibration I can report the issues is still very visible.
IT is NOT the TVs as I suspected that many could not be the issue. Early on, there was a color and depths difference compared to the Quantum View but with some side by side tweaking (ran both on separate receivers side by side) Quntum view, an LCD , was brighter and I could come closer to the color richness of a calibrated samsung. Regardless, the pixalation in face movements is still very clear and as I said, do not see these flaws on a 720p feed in Best buy, EVEN UP CLOSE. 
Needless to say, the Samsung , while has some nice extras, is too expensive and is going back since it did not solve the problem.

*So this brings me to the next step. How do I find out if it is the quality of the boxes ability to decompress the stream , the quality of how dish sends or just the quality of the shows? 
*

I invite those with Dish to check out the shows I mentioned. move a little closer and let me know what you see. Sure, it may be hard to see at 7 feet away, but that does not mean there is an issue.

The reason I keep trying is that I am trying to be sure that I am not living with substandard HD if there is a way they can improve my quality, if others are not having the issue, than I want the Best DISH can provide. And it it comes that there is nothing they can do, I will consider looking to see what Direct TV puts out. I would like to find someone with DISH HD in my area and see their sets. I am in Northern NJ.


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## Stewart Vernon

There is simply no way for any of us to tell what you are seeing without seeing what you are seeing.

None of us have the problem that you have OR it is part of what we expect to see when sitting close up to any HDTV setup. If I sit close enough, I find flaws in my Blu-rays too...


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## Hunter844

Stewart Vernon said:


> There is simply no way for any of us to tell what you are seeing without seeing what you are seeing.
> 
> None of us have the problem that you have OR it is part of what we expect to see when sitting close up to any HDTV setup. If I sit close enough, I find flaws in my Blu-rays too...


I agree completely. Maybe Dish should offer to come out and remove their equipment and cancel the account...


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## harsh

Stewart Vernon said:


> Yes, some channels and content are better than other... and my Blu-rays are generally superior... but I don't have the complaints you have... so outside of the general suggestions, we would need to see what you are seeing in order to determine if the limitation is your HDTVs or something else.


More to the point, no consumer TV provider sends out anything approaching the quality of Blu-ray. Using it as a benchmark is not reasonable.


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## harsh

If you are going to have your face glued to the TV you're not going to be happy with any conventional provider (be it DBS, cable or terrestrial broadcast).

Trolling the electronics department at Target and Walmart gets you _at most_ what you pay for. As for why cheap-ass TVs don't perform as well, they're not set up to do motion compensation and noise reduction like the better TVs are. They may have some, but it often isn't as effective as units that are built to higher standards. Because Blu-ray movies are (typically) relatively artifact free, they don't require much in the way of processing.

My recommendation would be to invite yourself to visit someone who has a different setup and give their pay TV provider the same critical evaluation. After getting slapped a few times for putting nose prints on their screens, you'll get the picture.


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## peano

I bet if the OP tried a good 42" plasma he would be pleased with the picture. Almost every 32" LCD I have seen is crap with the exception of a Panasonic.


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## mstar

I am sorryif I offended some based on the tone of the comments.
all I am doing is reporting as much detail as possible.

Yes I agree, if I am going to get help here, you need to see it but am still hoping for instructions on how to show you. I have explained the issues with photogrpahs.

As for the comment about "trolling for tvs" I hope some do read my previous post that I picked up a $700 samsung son not sure why I am getting attacked by some?

I can only report what I see in the best way possible and again, apologize if my recounts are not as professional as you are used to. 
It is not my fault Dish did nto send out a feild mananger as requested. I have now tried a higher end TV just so we can put this issue of TV quality to rest.

I would very much like to show you what I see but do not know how to do it.

As for pressing my nose up to the screen, I never said that, it is clearly visible from a few feet away. My point was to describe that at Best Buy I could not see the same defects on the same model TV on a lower quality feed the sales person told me was 720.

All I asked was people check out there day time 2-7 and the other shows mentioned to see if mabye this was missed since you might not be home or might stay far away. Telling me it is wrong to stand 2 or 3 feet away to look at what I notice from further away is like telling anyone to just squint and a bad picture will be acceptable :lol:

So please do provide suggestions on how to get you the the visuals you need.

Regardless, it sounds like there is nothing they can do otherwise so maybe this i all pointless. I am glad the tech saw the issues but sadened there would be no remedy one can think of.


As for a 42" plasma, first off I have a space issue and the best buy said they did not make them below 50" I am not saying they dont, but I would have to find someone who carries smaller plasma


BTW when I had the 311 box on the set with a standard 480 TV I never saw these problems. And I would occassionaly sit on the floor 4 feet from the tv while working on a project. When I "DISH'N UP" to get into the HD world, I ran now into these issues. I want to be clear I am not talking about minor little digitzing. Please Please Please do nto htink I am picking on minor things.
I have been a Dish subscriber since 2006 and always thought the quality was great in 480 on 480. 
When they first installed the dish I did nto have the HD TV. I thought both SD and HD looked equal and that there was no reason to get a flat panel. Then sales started so I figured I would try what i wanted to spend. But then everyone wanted to blame the TVs so I spent 3x as much to see the same resutls so sorry, if a tv with a retail value of $800 does not clear it up even a little how can the TV be the cause?

Gentleman. I a not saying you are wrong. Maybe you have excellent picture. This gives me hope that there is a fix. What this is or what to try is what I do not know. I have 3 211K and they all do the same thing in each room on now on 6 different TVs two being from Best Buy at a higher price.


Would a switch do anything for me in way of amplifying the signal The nearest connection has about a run of 65-70 feet of cable and the furthest room 24 feet away from that.
The only cable that was not new was ones in the wall sockets but was in the tech said, it just was not their cable. He based his assement of the install on the fact that the signal strength was about 59-62 on various stations.
I would not be wasting my time if this was not a clear issue of quality.


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## satcrazy

just curious.

please tell us what is your worst channel, then, what is your best channel?

Also, what does CNN look like to you? Please make sure you choose the HD channel, as Dish offers both sd and hd in the guide.

Since you know about calibration, your tv should have motion smoothing in the menu. Sometimes this helps.

If the channels you are unhappy with are locals [ abc,cbs,nbc] I speak from experience here, just because they say they are digital, doesn't mean they are fully broadcasting in HD. I can watch them either through Dish, or change the input on my tv and watch them thru an antenna I installed awhile back. If the picture is crappy on Dish, and I flip to antenna, it is just as crappy. 
So, not Dish's fault. Like the old saying goes, garbage in, garbage out. My PBS on the other hand always has a super good picture.

I have to wonder why BB would not use a 1080 signal though, considering 720 sets are few and far between there. Makes little sense. I'd want the tv"s I was selling to look as good as possible.
One thing, 42" plasma's are also getting scarce, especially if you are looking for a particular model. That much is correct.

I know you are frustrated, but,really, you should [ as suggested by harsh] explore someone else's set up, and keep in mind it is not realistic to use blueray as a benchmark.

Good luck!


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## jacaz

What Harsh said about comparing Dish's signal to Blu Ray is correct no provider
broadcasts in 1080p.One thing to try is to set your 211 to 720p instead of 1080i.This might help but who knows or get an OTA antenna and compare the dish picture to that.Hope you find a solution to the problem.


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## mstar

SADLY no OTA is available in my area due to a mountain blocking the NY signals. I could not get analog back in the day either and thus why I went cable then Sat.

Worst is ABC morning shows. 
Not sure there is a betst but reather better on the higher end.

Images are soft which I call slieghtly out of focus.


OK so since some suggested, I picked up a 42" Pansonci X5 plasma
Yes lower rated but I am keeping things consistant. 
I can report that everythign is SOFT. ANd thus the defects are too hard to notice at that size and 720p. I can say Rachel Ray is the worst show so maybe that is their broadcast which is odd since they moved to a new HD studio in September. 

I do not say the defects in the Dish quality are not there, just that Plasma HIDES it better or better deals with it.

However I have not yet tried a larger LCD/LED TV to see if it is the form factor that is the issue. 

I would say if the LCD peformed the same as the Panasonic plasma, I would not have posted. But size and space is an issue. Even the $700 Samsung LED was 32" so I still have to rule out size. Or it coudl be sub feild in plasma helps allot. 

As I have been asking, if those in 43" and under want to post their model numbers, that might help.


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## mstar

sat crazy. CNN looks soft ie slieghtly out of focus and pixelated in their drop in feeds when they are showing video PnP. Some interviews have some noise around the moving mouth but no where near the netowrks. Best network seems to be CBS worst ABC. Worst show day time is Rachel ray. Even in plasma the defects are there but since the plasma was so soft in focus allot would be absorbed and with the 720p resolution, it harder to notice the tracking issues. As I said above, maybe 42" TVs handle things different than 32"?


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## peano

Plasma is the best choice for PQ. LCD struggles with many things, especially motion blur. I set my Dish receivers to output 1080i. Looks sharper to me than 720p.


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## mstar

That might be a reality but that does not mean Dish is putting out a quality signal. 
Also this model plasma suffers from issues with brightness. This model can not adjust the 2.5% over scan and it can not be calibrated in some areas. Brightness and Contrast leave little to no room and are turned almost all the way up with the white scenes becoming gray vs white. Black is OK but murky black rahter than detailed black. 
If for not the gray whites when the screen is say with a white background looking washed out and the soft focus, I would say this one is going back to the store.


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## Stewart Vernon

In many markets ABC is one of the worst. They are 720p... and if your market is like mine they also bit-starve it by putting another 720p sub-channel OTA... so when Dish picks it up and re-transmits it, it gets a little worse than that.

The morning shows on most channels are probably not spectacular. I can't imagine they invested in the best equipment for those types of programming.

I can't speak to CNN except to note that on many of the news channels their in-studio stuff gets the best cameras, and their remote feeds might even be SD cameras since they embed them in the larger screen anyway they don't always both with an HD remote feed for a talking head that will take half or less of the broadcast screen.

Some of the other stuff I still chalk up to you looking too closely. You know, if you sit close enough to a CRT you can pick out the RGB dots on some screens... the MPEG "smears" and such are going to be on pretty much any moving image given that broadcast (Dish, DirecTV, cable, OTA, etc.) has more compression to get the most use out of their limited bandwidth.

Unless you get a pure uncompressed feed from the original source, you're going to be able to pick at it. I see flaws in what many people rave as "reference" blu-ray releases, if I sit close enough and pick at them.


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## mstar

While I might have expected too much from HD TV from Dish Network, it NOT me looking too closely. Please, lets just drop that. 
What I am seeing IS NOT like standing too close to a CRT.It is not the matrix of dots that make up the screen rather than a pixelation around mouths and moving faces. 

Even the Dish tech saw it from a few feet away when looking at LCD. It is like telling someone to squint and prentend you do not see something. 

Please understand it was me sitting 7 feet away from a 32" inch and seeing something was wrong that I moved closer to inspect what actually was happening. 

This journey was to try to determine which is the problem or combo of both. 

My friends panasonci LCD looks great on HD CABLE so is it really the shows there can be a difference on the same stations. 

Look I am not trying to knock Dish, I just keep trying the suggestions and trying to determine if it is the service, installation or TV. I have tried too many TVs to think it is the TV. 

LCD looks great on Blu ray so I am sorry, it is not the brand or quality of the LCD if they all look great and Blu ray does have SOME compression . Less than the Broadcasts but there is some in codecs and the mpeg-2 wrapper.

If I go a size LCD up and still see it , I wil have to conclude that Dish and LCD do not mix unless you stand 20 feet away. 
I might go with plasma but is it worth all the sacrifices in extra cost, more energy use, and extra weight. I really can not afford the top line of anything and size is still an issue. 
It would be really sad if I woul dhave to go that way just to make the Dish signal look better. 

The only reason I have not given up yet is some still say their 211k and LCD look NEAR Blu ray. I have not yet found anyone to let me see their set up on their LCD so I could see


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## CeeWoo

I suspect that you are more sensitive to PQ than I am. I have a 32" lcd tv connected to a 211 & a 42" plasma (as well as another 32" LCD) connected to a 722k. At least for me the pic on the tv connected to the 211 is about the same as the pic on the plasma. And to me, they're both great

If your friend has better quality on the HD cable, and you're not happy with your quality on Dish you may well be better off making that switch. You might first ask your friend 'if' it's ok for you to bring over your set and connect it to his cable first (maybe that will help determine for certain if it's the cable that is giving him the pic you desire)

Many years back, I was with Direct. I also noticed a different pic quality when I changed to Dish. To me, the dish pict was 'softer'. I changed my brightness & contrast setting on the tv and all was good. BUT this was before HD was even an option-so my experience probably counts for nothing on that


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## mstar

Cee Woo, I agree, I have to find a time he is off during the day to do a true test and bring over my TV. While that will answer the Dish quality issue, We have a monopoly with Service Electric being the ONLY cable provider and their prices is $25-30 higher per month. It is a real shame Dish is more concerned about cramming with poor quality "HD" in Mpeg 4 rather than focusing on quality. If I have to buy a $1000+ TV just to make Dish look good, I will back to my CRT or dump Dish.


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## Rduce

I do not think we are talking about sub quality HD, but rather an industry standard. There is only so much bandwidth and to be honest you are in the minority that reports being unhappy with the PQ. 

If that translates to less than 5% I think DISH would call that a WIN. I have a friend that has DIRECT and the exact same model television and I cannot honestly tell any difference between the PQ on either set. He says he can detect a very slight difference when he is over, but nothing that would make him switch services if he had DISH. He still bemoans that DIRECT still does not have some of the HD channels that DISH does, for instance REELS. I cannot fathom why anyone watches that channel, but to each their own.

I used to think I was picky back when I was with my local cable company, before cable boxes and you just connected their cable to your set. The God awful wavy lines and snow that they never could get rid of on nearly every channel. 

I though I died and gone to heaven when I switched to DISH 10 years ago with an 322 SD receiver. So I am truly sorry you cannot find the PQ you are happy with!


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## Stewart Vernon

mstar said:


> Cee Woo, I agree, I have to find a time he is off during the day to do a true test and bring over my TV. While that will answer the Dish quality issue, We have a monopoly with Service Electric being the ONLY cable provider and their prices is $25-30 higher per month. It is a real shame Dish is more concerned about cramming with poor quality "HD" in Mpeg 4 rather than focusing on quality. If I have to buy a $1000+ TV just to make Dish look good, I will back to my CRT or dump Dish.


If we could see what you are seeing, maybe we could have different answers... but we are all looking at the same satellite feeds as you... and you're the only one having the complaint. That's why we can't come up with different answers.

Nobody ever said Dish was perfect... nobody is... but we really don't know how your HDTV is adjusted, if you are accidentally zooming the image either at the TV or from the Dish receiver... what channels or programs you are specifically watching that are the worse (except for a couple you mentioned).

You could have the contrast or brightness turned up too much on the TV... many TVs come with these settings too high... perhaps your friend with the good looking cable HD has his TV adjusted for a better appearance.

At this point it doesn't look like we can give you any better answers... and it certainly does sound like your best option is going to be going elsewhere since it doesn't seem like you will be happy at Dish.


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## gtal98

mstar said:


> Brightness and Contrast leave little to no room and are turned almost all the way up with the white scenes becoming gray vs white. Black is OK but murky black rahter than detailed black.





Stewart Vernon said:


> You could have the contrast or brightness turned up too much on the TV... many TVs come with these settings too high... perhaps your friend with the good looking cable HD has his TV adjusted for a better appearance.


I'm starting to think this is the issue. Turning the "sharpness" up on an HDTV actually tends to cause more artifacting than eliminating it like you think it would. Mine is almost all the way down.

mstar - try and find a Blu-ray or DVD with a THX optimizer feature on it and follow the instructions. This will help you properly calibrate your TV settings to see if that's the issue.


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## satcrazy

mstar:

here are my panny settings, even though it is a higher end model, give it a try.
"Mode" setting- Never use "standard", it is Very dark, I like cinema or cutom.
color temp- warm 1
color management-off
CATS- off
Video NR- "weak" [ you might try med.]

If you have HDMI settings and "advanced" settings I can pass those on too.

contrast is 68, sharpness 42 . brightness at 60.

Settings are subjective, you have to find what suits you.

You have to realize though, that at some point the crt will expire. You don't have a lot of options, high cable bill, no OTA., and a sat picture you are not happy with. You also have a contract with Dish, right? If they will let you out, The other sat provider is your only option. You need to do some experimenting/exploring, so take your TV to your friend's, and try his set up. If he has plasma, look at his settings as well.

I'm not sure how much more info this forum can give you.

Good luck!


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## Michael1

Try Bloomberg. If that channel isn't sharp (except for the scrolling ticker at the bottom), then it is your TV. Also turn off all the image processing. Usually, it messes up the picture. There are some TVs that won't actually turn if off, even though it says "Off" (Sharp comes to mind), but it should minimize it.

Also some networks purposely blur the images of the faces of their hosts. The NBC Olympics was horrible for this. Maybe they were afraid we would see all their wrinkles. Their faces were literally SD quality. Sometimes, they would screw up, and another camera would catch them in HD, warts and all.

Also as a DIRT representative pointed out to me, some old movies are not scanned well into HD.

Michael


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## winman97

Well we haven't heard anything in 3 weeks, so what's happening?
If you have a friend with Dish HD set up, why don't you take your 211 receiver there and do a fast change out to test the receiver under totally different enviroment. I have a vip211 and a vip222 and both perform flawlessly, One on a 50" plasma and one on a 40" LCD.


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## lonerwulf

Omg just deal with it


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