# FOX Local Channel OTA programming info. not available ever?



## treiher (Oct 24, 2002)

I have seen the long thread regardinig the OTA problems, and have posted my issue there as well, but last night, someone from Dish Tech Support told me something that didn't make sense to me, so I thought I would check here and see what people think. She said that FOX stations do not provide the guide information in their broadcast, and that is why I am getting Digital Service in my guide rather than the programming information (all my other locals work great). 

But I thought that it actually gets the guide information from the satellite transmitted version of the local FOX station (for me, it's KTBC in Austin), and then maps that guide data back to the OTA digital version. I thought that the guide information is completely independent of what the 942 is receiving through the air (not the satellite). The Dish Tech Support Rep. was telling me I should complain to FOX for not providing Dish with the information they need to provide us with the guide information. But if that's true, how is it that I have guide info. from the satellite version? 

Very confusing!

P.S. Other than this one problem so far, I love the 942! Just a few days into it now. Name-based recording is taking a little getting used to, but in a good way.


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## Jeff McClellan (Apr 22, 2002)

Fox gets guide info. That you are having issues with a certain channel is along the lines of what we are all experiencing. And will hopefully be resolved in the next update.[


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## i_mobile (Oct 17, 2005)

I am not sure it is an issue related to the 942. I have both a 942 and a 811 and the guide data for the OTA Digital Fox channel doesn't show up in either (the guide for the OTA analog Fox channel does show up in the 942, though). I called Dish Tech Support some time ago and the person on the line took my info and told me they would call me back with an answer to my problem. Needless to say, they never did.

Cheers!


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## Mike Johnson (Jan 16, 2005)

The explanation from Dish isn't correct, but the station may be on a list of stations that Dish has a known problem with. I can't seem to find it tonight, but Mark had a list of stations in certain markets that were not having the local guide info mapped through to the digital OTA's. (The station I work for is one of these stations because our digital channel is a -2 instead of -1). Perhaps KTBC is one of these "problem stations" that Dish knows about?

You are correct that the 942 gets its guide info from satellite and not from the OTA signal.


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## treiher (Oct 24, 2002)

Thanks Mike! That seems to make a little more sense. KTBC may indeed be one of the problem stations, but they are a -1 digital station, so I don't think it's that particular issue. Just sent them an email asking if they are in fact the problem with Dish. Will be interesting to see what they say.


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## Mike Johnson (Jan 16, 2005)

I wish I could find Mark's post....From what I remember the issue had to do with how the local station was (or wasn't) broadcasting PSIP data. Each station has a TSID code assigned to it and that code is to be transmitted in the PSIP stream. Dish receivers use this TSID code to match up the local digital station to the program guide info. 

Stations have been recommended to broadcast the TSID number in their analog signal so that advanced receivers can identify and match the analog signals to their digital counterparts. Many stations haven't invested in TSID transmission equipment for their analog signals (it is not required by the FCC and the units are about $5000.) 

This is only my personal theory, but Dish may be expecting to see this analog TSID signal in the OTA signal that is uplinked in order to make the guide data mapping work. Maybe these "problem stations" that don't have local guide data are the ones that aren't putting TSID on their analog signals. Again, this is only my theory, but it does fit into what Dish told you about the station being at fault.

I also remember an issue where the local OTA digital signal is from a repeater station which is different from the one that Dish uplinks. The TSIDs don't match, so the guide data doesn't map.

More than you probably wanted to know, but now you know it anyway.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

Mike Johnson said:


> I wish I could find Mark's post....From what I remember the issue had to do with how the local station was (or wasn't) broadcasting PSIP data. Each station has a TSID code assigned to it and that code is to be transmitted in the PSIP stream. Dish receivers use this TSID code to match up the local digital station to the program guide info.
> 
> Stations have been recommended to broadcast the TSID number in their analog signal so that advanced receivers can identify and match the analog signals to their digital counterparts. Many stations haven't invested in TSID transmission equipment for their analog signals (it is not required by the FCC and the units are about $5000.)
> 
> ...


Just an idea. Perhaps Dish can add an option to manually assign which Sat local the OTA local gets linked to. This way, if you have one of those problem channels, you could just pull up a menu that would let you link OTA Channel XX-01 with Sat Channel xxxx. Then the guide would populate correctly without the need for the TSID signal.


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## treiher (Oct 24, 2002)

Mike Johnson said:


> More than you probably wanted to know, but now you know it anyway.


Not at all! This is interesting stuff. Appreciate the insight!

Let me see if I got this right. PSIP data stream contains the actual programming information. TSID identifies which station is transmitting the data stream. Dish can provide guide information for all our locals through satellite, because the signal contains the PSIP datastream, and they obviously know who the signal is from whether the TSID data is included or not. But if either the uplink signal to dish or the OTA digital signal does not contain the TSID, then there is no way to match the two, and therefore map the guide information from the satellite transmitted version to the OTA digital version? In this case, KTBC could be transmitting PSIP data in both signals, but may not be transmitting TSID info. in one or both.

Does that make sense?


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## Mike Johnson (Jan 16, 2005)

Close, but not quite right.

PSIP data (including program guide) is only transmitted on Digital OTA signal. That data should include a TSID number for the transmitter. Analog OTA should also have TSID encoded with it (as part of the V-Chip/Closed Caption data). The receiver can use the TSID codes to match up the analog and digital signals. The Digital signal may contain Program Guide data for the Analog channel.

For whatever reason, Dish does not use the PSIP guide data that is broadcast by the Digital OTA station. This may be for purely technical reasons (How do you merge the program guide data from a bunch of OTA sources with the satellite guide? What if the OTA stations are in different directions and you use a rotor to tune them in? What if they are off the air? I haven't seen a regular DTV tuner that does a decent job of managing program guide data.) My guess is it is easier to provide all the guide data from a single source - satellite.

What Dish does seem to use from PSIP is the TSID, the Channel Number and the Call Letters.

Back to theory - again this is only a guess. Yes, whether there is a TSID in the analog signal or not, Dish does know where the signal is coming from. But if they are using some automated process to match up the Digital OTA stations with satellite guide data, any missing or incorrect PSIP or TSID data could really mess things up. Could Dish make a manual edit in the guide table to overcome this problem? I don't know. There are hundreds of stations, it would be a nightmare to manage.

I do feel for Dish on this one. Maybe they designed their system to expect to see a TSID on analog then the FCC decided to make it optional. Not Dish's fault. But how do you fix it?

And I found Mark's original thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=396381

My theory on the analog TSID may be completely wrong, but the Digital TSID is definitely used.


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## treiher (Oct 24, 2002)

I have received several emails now from a very helpful person at KTBC. I have explained to him the problem, several of the theories discussed here, and even took some pictures of my television with the guide pulled up to help better explain. As far as the theory about TSID, whether they are using it, and also about whether the FCC even requires it, here is what he said . . .



> *KTBC: *Actually, the TSID (Transport Stream ID) is required, and is what
> gives the receiver the designation of 7-00 or 7-01. Those numbers are
> the TSID's. There are associations made by the receivers. The analog
> channel does not transmit a TSID. The receiver automatically
> ...


An interesting point . . . the analog channel does not transmit TSID. 


> *KTBC: *I don't believe there are any stations providing TSID on their analog
> channels. What generally happens is a mapping and correllation inside
> the various receivers that tie the analog and DTV channels together.
> For instance, the on-air channel of the DTV signal is actually channel
> 56. However, it will appear on receivers as channel 7-1.


He is suggesting that receiving the TSID from the OTA signal is enough to map the channels together, and I would think he is right. After all, the anolog version of KTBC here shows up as 007-00 already, and has for years. It also correctly sees 007-01 OTA signal. Seems to me there is no reason the receiver can't match those up.

I am beginning to wonder now, if I was misled by Dish and in fact, KTBC is actually doing everything they can to make this work. If so, that would be very dissappointing on Dish's part.

And it is true, the obvious solution to all of this is to allow us to manually map the stations in the local channel setup screen. They could have an option which allows you to check "manual" or "automatic" when you add a new local OTA station. If automatic, then the receiver links it, if manual, then you pick the channel it links to. Problem solved.


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## Mike Johnson (Jan 16, 2005)

Good info. Your contact is right about analog TSID. Most receivers do handle this by channel number alone. Using TSID on analog was supposed to make it easier, but don't know if any receiver even uses it.....(Just a theory I had after discovering that the station I work for doesn't have working guide data on Dish for OTA, and we don't have analog TSID. My station is listed on Mark's post as "stations we don't support".)

KTBC may indeed be doing everything correctly, which means the problem is one of the others that Mark listed in his post, which all sound like problems that have to be handled on Dish's end.

Anyway, there is a lot I don't know about this. All I can do is make an educated guess and try to give you some background.

Maybe Mark can get in contact with someone at Dish who is familiar with this issue, at least to find out the status of KTBC......


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