# Signal conversion question



## VIP222 (Jun 25, 2007)

I want the box to let the TV do the conversion of the signal. It will be connected via an HDMI cable to a Sony 46XBR2. Basically, what I'm saying is, is there an option on this box where the signal skips the box and lets the TV determine whether the channel is 480i or p, 720p, 1080i? Help would be appreciated.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Passthru is not implemented yet for the puppy.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

:welcome_s VIP222

What you are asking for is referred to here as Native Pass-through. The 622 currently does not support this feature. If you do a search on this forum for native you should find a number of threads discussing it. 

There has been mention of it being added in one tech forum but it has not been demoed or shown anywhere that I am aware of.

THere is always some wish list polls on the sticky threads at the top of the forum. Be sure to vote for this feature...


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## VIP222 (Jun 25, 2007)

Do you know if it has been implemented on the VIP222. I really have a VIP222 but I heard it was basically the same as the 622 minus the DVR and the VIP222 forum has nobody on it really. If it doesnt this leaves me kind of disappointed because I have read everywhere including AVS that the PQ is best when the XBR2 does the converting. Thanks for the replies and help.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

If you really have it, then YOU should inform us !
Just press Menu button and check each submenu's parameters.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

No it has not be implemented on the 222 to my knowledge. I am sure if it was, Jason would have mentioned it. As for nobody being on the 222 forum, the box was just recently released so I don't believer there are many people with a 222.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

And if the people who actually have a ViP222 don't post in that forum, then it will never get posts 

I'm guessing (have to guess since I don't have one) the 222 doesn't have native pass-through. They have talked about it on the 622, but haven't released anything as yet and we really don't know if it has a high priority compared to other things.

Some of us are also hoping not just for passthrough but some way of controlling. I, for instance, would like to pass 480i as 480p... but upconvert 720p to 1080i... so basically I only want to output 480p for SD and 1080i for HD... Even though my TV does accept a 720p signal, it does not look as sharp as a 1080i signal, even on channels that are 720p native.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

That is the biggest problem with native pass-through ... there is no such thing. 

Everything sent via satellite is compressed in one or more ways ... the closest one can come to 'native pass through' is to set the output resolution based on the closest ATSC broadcast standard to the input resolution (input being at E*'s uplink or if they receive a compressed signal, at the signal source).

Native pass-through would involve flagging content for not only what it is on satellite but what it should be decompressed into. That still involves scaling. Then add people like HDMe who want a variation on native pass-through (passing some stuff/converting other stuff) and the menu option alone gets confusing!

Yep, when it was mentioned last year on a Tech Chat it sounded trivial ... then someone looked at it and we have not heard another peep! 

BTW: In talking to some D* guys about their HR20s which have 'native pass-through' it seems that when they turn it on their receivers are more likely to have problems. Perhaps this is a case of "be careful what you wish for".


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> BTW: In talking to some D* guys about their HR20s which have 'native pass-through' it seems that when they turn it on their receivers are more likely to have problems. Perhaps this is a case of "be careful what you wish for".


My father has the capability on his Time Warner cable box... but it had a glitch with SD. Since it grey-bars SD channels... if you told the receiver your TV could accept 480p signals... it would send the SD channel double-graybarred! Imagine seeing grey bars, then in the 4:3 area you see another set of gray bars and a smaller area for the SD picture.

Don't know if they ever fixed that, but he went back to just always 1080i output.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

HDMe said:


> ... Even though my TV does accept a 720p signal, it does not look as sharp as a 1080i signal, even on channels that are 720p native.


You must not have a DLP set. My Mits DLP looks sharper on 720p.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

James Long said:


> That is the biggest problem with native pass-through ... there is no such thing.
> 
> Everything sent via satellite is compressed in one or more ways ... the closest one can come to 'native pass through' is to set the output resolution based on the closest ATSC broadcast standard to the input resolution (input being at E*'s uplink or if they receive a compressed signal, at the signal source).
> 
> ...


Well without getting into the technical aspects of what native resolution pass through means.... To me it means passing through a 720p source signal from E* to my TV rather than upscalling to 1080i. Though I think the real benefit of such a feature is with SD content. Basically what people want, me included, is some way to have the signals come in closer to what is being sent (Or actually having what is being sent from E* go directly to the TV).

I have been wanting this feature since my 811, however, after I read some posts from the D* side in terms of channel switching rsync time I am not sure about it but I still think it is something worth having as a choice option. And Yes.. I think it should be set up such that the user would pick what resolution they want for the given source types. Why.. To meet the needs of all the different configurations. If they do it this way, from a usability point of view I don't see it being that difficult to configure. Not as easy as totally automatic but I think the flexibility here is essential. It might be difficult to implement the feature if not all the pieces required is in the stream, but I think the configuration portion of it is pretty streight forward.

I do hope they get it figured out and implemented because it is one feature I keep seeing over and over again. One of the edicts from 37 Signals is "Never add Enhancements to your bug tracking system". If an enhancement is needed it will keep getting mentioned so you don't need to add it to the system it will become obvioius. This is one that I feel has become obvious. CC toggle button is another.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

lujan said:


> You must not have a DLP set. My Mits DLP looks sharper on 720p.


Mine is a CRT rear projection set. Seems to like 480i/p and 1080i signals the best... doesn't like 720p signals as much, at least not from my Dish receiver.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

James Long said:


> That is the biggest problem with native pass-through ... there is no such thing.
> 
> Everything sent via satellite is compressed in one or more ways ... the closest one can come to 'native pass through' is to set the output resolution based on the closest ATSC broadcast standard to the input resolution (input being at E*'s uplink or if they receive a compressed signal, at the signal source).
> 
> ...


James are you sure about the problem of native pass through with Direct TV??

My friend has an HR20 and when he uses the native pass through the picture becomes a whole lot better.

It could be that the build in scaler in the VIP 622 is so much better that native pass through is not needed and does not provide any benefits, while Direct TV scaler is poor and native pass through does provide some benefit


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The guys are on the Cutting Edge ... which is basically a public access beta test. Hopefully they fix such problems before national release. I mentioned it just to note the nature of trying to add the feature.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Well without getting into the technical aspects of what native resolution pass through means.... To me it means passing through a 720p source signal from E* to my TV rather than upscalling to 1080i. Though I think the real benefit of such a feature is with SD content. Basically what people want, me included, is some way to have the signals come in closer to what is being sent (Or actually having what is being sent from E* go directly to the TV).
> ...


The above is precisely what I believe many of us want... degree of compression is an entirely other ballgame.


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## CALI_WATCHER (Mar 22, 2007)

I would like to see possible native pass-through of OTA.. I think that would be alot easier... 

I know the satelitte it is what you get. I would also like to see upscaling to 1080p (if they are going to upscale, they should do it all the way)

Oh well, I do like the VIP 622 alot... it is very nice and does everything I need from it.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

The problem with native pass-through on anything but 720p and 1920x1080i content is that the receiver must scale it up anyway. In the case of D* where _all_ 1080i is downscaled before uplink, the receiver must scale it back up to send out something that an off-the-shelf TV can handle. SD content from both E* and D* is likely downscaled too.

Passing through OTA, 1920x1080i and 1280x720p content sounds like a winner, but for most everything else, you're fooling yourself to think that it is "untouched".


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Tha's why D* and E* should resist the native pass-through !

They're use so many different INTERNAL resolutions, I counted nine of them one time for E* .


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Since SD is analog not digital to start with how can it be downscaled?

It could be digitized to 544 by 480 or 640 by 480 at any bitrate, Oh, right it already is. In this case it is VBR, Extra long GOPs as compared to DVD spec for example and so on.

Or it could be digitized at any other resolution the encoder is set to when it is converted to digital. Since Dish uses a form of DVB it should be converted to a dtsndard DVB resolution.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

SD now in 480x480i . Some slate channels seen low then 480h.


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## CALI_WATCHER (Mar 22, 2007)

The annoying thing is the content gets scaled on the DISH RECEIVER for OTA.. but if I go to the Television tuner it is native... so that always looks a tad better.. wish they would just pass the OTA native to the Television.. would allow the TV to do it's job and not get upscaled twice (in my case 720p to 1080i then tv does 1080i to 1080p)... not fun huh? 



harsh said:


> The problem with native pass-through on anything but 720p and 1920x1080i content is that the receiver must scale it up anyway. In the case of D* where _all_ 1080i is downscaled before uplink, the receiver must scale it back up to send out something that an off-the-shelf TV can handle. SD content from both E* and D* is likely downscaled too.
> 
> Passing through OTA, 1920x1080i and 1280x720p content sounds like a winner, but for most everything else, you're fooling yourself to think that it is "untouched".


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> Since SD is analog not digital to start with how can it be downscaled? ...


This is not necessarily correct. Much current *SD* content is "filmed" using digital cameras


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

P Smith said:


> SD now in 480x480i . Some slate channels seen low then 480h.


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## wje (Mar 8, 2006)

SaltiDawg said:


> This is not necessarily correct. Much current *SD* content is "filmed" using digital cameras


And the true-film content is digitized; there ain't no such thing as analog video in an MPEG-3/4 digital stream!


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

SaltiDawg said:


> This is not necessarily correct. Much current *SD* content is "filmed" using digital cameras


Sorry when I was saying analog I was thinking of Locals. What is the native resolution of an analog broadcast of a local channel?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

480i, actually 6.5 MHz


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> 480i, actually 6.5 MHz


And how do they fit that within a 6 MHz analog TV channel?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Well, answereing to "What is the native resolution of an analog broadcast of a local channel?" I meaned analog signal parameters.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

P Smith said:


> Well, answereing to "What is the native resolution of an analog broadcast of a local channel?" I meaned analog signal parameters.


One of us is confused. "480i" has absolutely nothing to do with the analog signal.... until we try to digitize it in a format consistent with Table 3 of the ATSC Standard.

I have no idea where 6.5 Mhz comes from.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

5.5 MHz for video and 0.5 MHz for FM audio channel(s). Ok, Ok - 525 lines interlaced.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> 5.5 MHz for video and 0.5 MHz for FM audio channel(s). Ok, Ok - 525 lines interlaced.


525i (486 lines of picture) 

4.2 MHz bandwidth on the video

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC for a little educational material.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Skew my memory by Europen standards . Back to those days when Wiki was just a word and the signals was burned to oscilloscopes.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

TBoneit said:


> Sorry when I was saying analog I was thinking of Locals. What is the native resolution of an analog broadcast of a local channel?


Pixel resolution is not defined for NTSC. There are 480 continuous horizontal scan lines.

Pixel resolution is defined for OTA digital SD as 640x480i and 704x480i


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## bwclark (Nov 10, 2005)

Is there still no native pass-thru for the ViP 722? Cable user looking at changing to sat. My cable box has pass-thru.

If no, then what are the options....can't seem to find a manual that shows this.

EDIT: found it....NO. 
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1301933&postcount=2


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