# New DMA maps - Realignment



## SouthernSky (Jul 15, 2003)

I understand Neilson has recently remapped all DMA's changing boundaries in a lot of places. DirecTV has a spreadsheet on their retailer site that shows old DMA's to new DMA's but it isn't really clear (e.g. -- Lake Charles, LA now in Alexandria, LA DMA?)

Does anyone have the actual new maps?


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

The new Nielsen boundaries come out every September. The current TV Markets can be found here: http://ekb.dbstalk.com/TVMarkets

DirecTV and Dish can "freeze" the boundaries so these maps are accurate for what county is in what TV market today. Dish and DirecTV's boundaries are slightly different in some areas. For example, Athens County Ohio is in the Columbus Oh market since last September, but Dish and DirecTV both still have it in the Charleston TV market where it was last year and for close to a decade before that.

See ya
Tony


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## SouthernSky (Jul 15, 2003)

I was looking for something that corresponds with the Oct 2005 changes. The dbstalk maps seem way outdated (2003). I was hoping to find something up to date which matches the DirecTV spreadsheet just given to retailers last week.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

The EKB maps (the state and local market maps at http://ekb.dbstalk.com/TVMarkets) are current as of Octover 2005. I know because I spent 3 weeks September 2005 looking at individual markets info at the FCC and individual local TV stations web sites and cross-checked that with openly available Nielsen info and business pediodicals. Nothing newer than these maps are available anywhere. Next update will be in September for Nielsen.

Check out this thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=45455

The counties in white on the local maps are the countris that moved away from the market since the maps were first made April 2003

Pay particular attention to the third post. 

See ya
Tony


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

SouthernSky, care to attach the spreadsheet here for one of us to read?


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## Skapare (Jun 3, 2006)

Some of those market boundaries are just silly. For example, an uncle that lived in Braxton county in a rural area had his own antenna on top of a hill. Braxton county is in the Charleston-Huntington DMA according to that map. But actual OTA reception involves WOAY from Oak Hill (ABC), WDTV from Weston (CBS), and WBOY from Clarksburg (NBC). Other stations do come in watchable but with less quality, including WSAZ from Huntington (NBC), WCHS from Charleston (ABC), KDKA from Pittsburgh (CBS), and WTAE from Pittsburgh (ABC). Other channels (6,7,10,11,13) had various problems making them unwatchable though identifiable. One PBS station (9) also came in OK.

I think Nielsen does a poor job when it comes to mixed markets. When a market has all the stations in a central major city, it's simple. But when the various affiliates are scattered around such that lots of people get some from here and some from there, Nielsen is just making a mess of things by effectively pretending everyone gets everything just from one market. They should create split market areas where a station can actually be in 2 or more markets. This could accomodate the mixed reality that is out there in other than major urban areas. OTOH, maybe advertisers don't really care about markets above 100?

I've also heard of split counties from a friend who lived in a rural county in Indiana. he said people in the north half of the county received mostly from one city while people in the south half of the county received mostly from another city. I'm sure a few people all around that county got both, especially around the middle. Nielsen just doesn't seem to have a means to deal with this.


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## Matt Beachy (Jun 15, 2006)

Skapare said:


> I've also heard of split counties from a friend who lived in a rural county in Indiana. he said people in the north half of the county received mostly from one city while people in the south half of the county received mostly from another city.


I live in rural LaGrange county in northern Indiana and am having issues with the local channels that Dish Network is offering me. Here is an email I just sent to Dish regarding the local channels they're requiring me to get. Is it possible they just have it messed up in their system?

....I signed up for Dish Network service in May of 2005. During the installation, both I and the Dish installer were shocked when we were told that I was supposed to be receiving the Ft. Wayne, IN local channels rather than the South Bend/Elkhart, IN local channels. Initially I just accepted it, but it has continued to frustrate me and the more I've looked into it, it just doesn't make any sense. The attached PDF shows a map of the area zip codes, including the zip code I live in - 46543 (Millersburg, IN). The address I live at is located in LaGrange County while the town of Millersburg, the city per my address, is located in Elkhart County. On the map I've indicated approximately where my house is located within the 46543 zip code with a blue "X" inside a red circle. I've also shown where the Elkhart/LaGrange county line is.

Using your (Dish) website, I entered different addresses within my zip code and the surrounding zip codes that touch the 46543 zip code to see what local package they were listed as receiving. Here is what I found:

ZIP Code Local Channels

46543 (LaGrange County) Ft. Wayne, IN
46543 (Elkhart County) South Bend/Elkhart, IN
46571 South Bend/Elkhart, IN
46565 South Bend/Elkhart, IN
46528 South Bend/Elkhart, IN
46526 South Bend/Elkhart, IN
46767 Ft. Wayne, IN

I'm surrounded on three sides by areas receiving the South Bend/Elkhart local channels. The only zip code surrounding me that comes up with the Ft. Wayne locals is 46767 - Ligonier (partially shown on the bottom right of the map). Considering that Fort Wayne is located south-east of my home, it doesn't make sense to me that people in the 46571- Topeka zip code are receiving the South Bend/Elkhart locals while I'm receiving the Fort Wayne locals. The other part of this that is puzzling to me is that my parents, who live 300 feet from me, have DirecTV and they receive the South Bend/Elkhart local channels. Would the FCC or whoever defines the viewing areas have approved different local channels for the same area?


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Matt Beachy said:


> I live in rural LaGrange county in northern Indiana and am having issues with the local channels that Dish Network is offering me. Here is an email I just sent to Dish regarding the local channels they're requiring me to get. Is it possible they just have it messed up in their system?
> 
> ....I signed up for Dish Network service in May of 2005. During the installation, both I and the Dish installer were shocked when we were told that I was supposed to be receiving the Ft. Wayne, IN local channels rather than the South Bend/Elkhart, IN local channels. Initially I just accepted it, but it has continued to frustrate me and the more I've looked into it, it just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> I'm surrounded on three sides by areas receiving the South Bend/Elkhart local channels. The only zip code surrounding me that comes up with the Ft. Wayne locals is 46767 - Ligonier (partially shown on the bottom right of the map). Considering that Fort Wayne is located south-east of my home, it doesn't make sense to me that people in the 46571- Topeka zip code are receiving the South Bend/Elkhart locals while I'm receiving the Fort Wayne locals. The other part of this that is puzzling to me is that my parents, who live 300 feet from me, have DirecTV and they receive the South Bend/Elkhart local channels. Would the FCC or whoever defines the viewing areas have approved different local channels for the same area?


Yeah it's been pointed out that DMA's don't necessarily make any sense as to how the borders are set up. The biggest reason for this is that they use county borders as the borders for DMA's. Of course county borders have nothing to do with TV signals and where they travel but it's the lazy way out after all because if they didn't use some kind of existing map they'd actually have start from scratch and draw their own map with actual relevence based on where the TV signals travel and pay attention to what channels people in an area watch off their atenna's and what's available on cable in their area. It's so much easier just to take a whole county and take an average and say ok this county will be in x DMA even if it isn't relevant to the whole county. Personally I think it's just an example of over-regulation. I don't see any reason why the government even needs to be telling you what channels you should be getting. Do away with DMA's altogether and give the customer the option of getting any channel broadcasting within oh let's just say 60 miles of them and let the customers decide which ones they want. If you don't live within 60 miles of any TV towers you can choose whichever cities locals are closest to you as long as you live within the spot beam that they're located on. Of course it'll probably never happen mostly because it actually makes sense.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SouthernSky said:


> Does anyone have the actual new maps?


Nielsen will sell you a PDF download of the "current" map for $40. More detailed information is available at an exponentially increasing price.


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## Matt Beachy (Jun 15, 2006)

tsmacro said:


> Yeah it's been pointed out that DMA's don't necessarily make any sense as to how the borders are set up. The biggest reason for this is that they use county borders as the borders for DMA's.


Well if they use county borders to determine the DMA's, I'm getting totally shafted right now. I physically live in Lagrange county. All of the zip codes for the cities in Lagrange county (Topeka, Shipshewana, Lagrange, etc.) come up as the South Bend/Elkhart, IN locals per Dish's website, and all of the cities in Elkhart county, the county that Millersburg (my zip code) is located in come up as South Bend/Elkhart. Based on that, they just must have some quirk in their system that is making my address come up wrong.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Matt Beachy said:


> Well if they use county borders to determine the DMA's, I'm getting totally shafted right now. I physically live in Lagrange county. All of the zip codes for the cities in Lagrange county (Topeka, Shipshewana, Lagrange, etc.) come up as the South Bend/Elkhart, IN locals per Dish's website, and all of the cities in Elkhart county, the county that Millersburg (my zip code) is located in come up as South Bend/Elkhart. Based on that, they just must have some quirk in their system that is making my address come up wrong.


You're right your situation makes even less sense than most! I'm not sure why you'd get Ft. Wayne instead of South Bend. I'd take that whole post you did up above and e-mail it to [email protected] and see what they have to say about it. It's possible it's a glitch in the system, it happens. I actually had one customer who lived in the Terre Haute DMA who for some reason the computer said didn't qualify for any locals at all. He lived right in the middle of the county, had friends and family living within blocks of him that had Dish with locals and of course when he called customer service the drones there just parrotted what their computer said which was that he didn't qualify even after he explained that it was obviously a flaw in the system and they should get it fixed and give him his locals. Well I advised him to try the e-mail address I just gave and it reached someone that was actually allowed to think and discovered there was indeed a hiccup in the sytem they fixed it and he got his locals. So try that and see what happens.


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## Matt Beachy (Jun 15, 2006)

I emailed it to [email protected] on Tuesday evening but haven't heard back yet. Hopefully they'll be getting back to me soon.


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

Matt Beachy said:


> Well if they use county borders to determine the DMA's, I'm getting totally shafted right now. I physically live in Lagrange county. All of the zip codes for the cities in Lagrange county (Topeka, Shipshewana, Lagrange, etc.) come up as the South Bend/Elkhart, IN locals per Dish's website, and all of the cities in Elkhart county, the county that Millersburg (my zip code) is located in come up as South Bend/Elkhart. Based on that, they just must have some quirk in their system that is making my address come up wrong.


Zip codes that cross county boundries have been an issue for a long time. They are in the process of getting it corrected. I believe that D* has their database updated. Have you tried applying for locals on the E* web site within the last few months?
https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/customernetqual/processAddress.do


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## Matt Beachy (Jun 15, 2006)

I talked with a CSR tonight. He's claiming that it doesn't matter where I'm located, it depends on what satellite hits my area. Using the spot beam theory, I struggle with the idea that the satellite for the South Bend/Elkhart locals can hit homes west, north, and east of me but somehow misses my area. Based on some further conversation I had with him regarding guide info for my digital off-air channels (for which all I get is "Digital Service"), I'm going to hope he isn't the brightest guy they have on staff.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Matt Beachy said:


> I talked with a CSR tonight. He's claiming that it doesn't matter where I'm located, it depends on what satellite hits my area. Using the spot beam theory, I struggle with the idea that the satellite for the South Bend/Elkhart locals can hit homes west, north, and east of me but somehow misses my area. Based on some further conversation I had with him regarding guide info for my digital off-air channels (for which all I get is "Digital Service"), I'm going to hope he isn't the brightest guy they have on staff.


Ummmm.....no your issue I can just about guarantee has nothing to do with you being within the South Bend spot beam. That's the kind of thing that a CSR will say to someone because they can get away with it because the average person doesn't have a clue. It's kind of like watching something like Star Trek where they use technobable to try to sound intelligent and futuristic. Of course this breaks down when the person who calls in is knowlegeable and knows better. No your issue is obviously that the zip code that you live in is in their computer as belonging to the Ft Wayne DMA and until you reach someone at Dish who's actually smart enough to realize it and cares enough to do something about it you'll continue to get those Ft. Wayne locals.


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

Matt Beachy said:


> I talked with a CSR tonight. He's claiming that it doesn't matter where I'm located, it depends on what satellite hits my area. Using the spot beam theory, I struggle with the idea that the satellite for the South Bend/Elkhart locals can hit homes west, north, and east of me but somehow misses my area. Based on some further conversation I had with him regarding guide info for my digital off-air channels (for which all I get is "Digital Service"), I'm going to hope he isn't the brightest guy they have on staff.


You're right. He's not the brightest CSR.

To see how it is supposed to work, assume for a moment that you subscribe to DirecTV. Go to the following web site and type in your zip code.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/packProg/localChannels.jsp?assetId=900018

For your zip code you will see a prompt that allows you to further refine your location.

The Fort Wayne allocation on Dish's database is simply wrong. Unfortunately the E* CSR can't fix that.

Here's a close-up of the DMA map. http://www.truckads.com/Affiliate/Ft_Wayne.htm

Because DirecTV has it right, I'm assuming that the current data is correct. However, Dish may be relying on an older data set. The company that supplies much of the location data is Decisionmark. You might try an email to the president of Decisionmark, Jack Perry at; [email protected]
Jack should know more than I.

The other option is [email protected]. That often fixes things that CSR's can't.


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## Matt Beachy (Jun 15, 2006)

After banging my head against the wall for a long time today (ie. talking to some more CSR's) I think I may have finally made a breakthrough. The CSR's could never get past the fact that the "system" said I should be getting the Ft. Wayne locals. I kept telling them that I thought the "system" was wrong, but I think the acknowledgement of that may have destroyed their world so they fumbled and mumbled around. I finally stumbled across a number to someone in the PR department and talked to someone who was willing to help. I think she was just happy to talk about something other than the TIVO case. I emailed her my problem and within a half hour got a call from someone in the CEO Escalations department. I can't say with certainty whether my email to [email protected] last week or my email to the PR person spurred the call. She told me that their system showed that I lived in Noble County. I told her I lived in Lagrange County. She asked me to email her my property tax bill to verify that. I did that and she has forwarded it on. Obviously something clicked becuase later on in the evening our Ft. Wayne locals were gone. I'm pretty sure they'll have to come out and install a different dish for us to get the South Bend locals. Hopefully they'll do that willingly since it was their error.


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## derwin0 (Jan 31, 2005)

My sister actually came out ahead in a multi-county zip code snafu.
She is in Monroe County, GA which is in the Macon DMA. But part of the Jackson (in Butts County) zip code spills over to a small part of Monroe County that she is in. Since she is in that spill over, she gets Atlanta locals instead.


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## Matt Beachy (Jun 15, 2006)

I checked my tv over lunch, and to my delight and amazement I was receiving the South Bend / Elkhart local channels and the guide information for my off-air digital channels was coming through too. I'm even getting the guide info for the Ft. Wayne ABC affiliate that I get with my off-air antenna. I was excited. Now if E* can get this TIVO lawsuit settled, everything should be good.


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## Donp (May 2, 2006)

I have noticed Louisville Ky. went up 2 places for the 2007-8 DMA ratings. I would like to know why they did. Added a county perhaps?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Matt Beachy said:


> I checked my tv over lunch, and to my delight and amazement I was receiving the South Bend / Elkhart local channels and the guide information for my off-air digital channels was coming through too. I'm even getting the guide info for the Ft. Wayne ABC affiliate that I get with my off-air antenna. I was excited. Now if E* can get this TIVO lawsuit settled, everything should be good.


Good news ... and sorry that I didn't notice this thread earlier as the mistake is more obvious to people who live in Michiana.

The South Bend locals are on a spotbeam, but are on a spotbeam on 119° that was once used for Indianapolis locals. The same spot transponder that two of the the Ft Wayne locals used to get to your home! (WFFA and WINM are in 7s11 - the other four FTW stations are on 110° 18s13 - all SBN locals are on 7s11).

Earlier this year South Bend was on 105° and Fort Wayne was on 121° - similar dishes except they pick up different satellites (both pick up 119° and 110° where the main channels and all locals discussed are now located). You probably have a large SD121 - which is no longer needed with the channel moves. Fortunately both markets moved to main satellites - otherwise E* would have had to send out a tech to change your dish before the SBN locals appeared.


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