# HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray War Thread - Update: Toshiba formally announces end of HD DVD



## Nick

In an effort to consolidate the plethora of news reports and press releases about the
great HD DVD vs Blu-Ray battle, I am starting this thread. If you have news or views
about the fight for hi-def format superiority, whether about disc sales or hardware
news, please feel free to contribute to this thread.

Moderator update (Tom Robertson): Toshiba has formally announced it will cease HD DVD business. Press Release


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## Nick

April 23, 2007 - Sales of the Blu-ray HDTV DVD again beat rival HD DVD in March giving the
Sony-backed format a 69-31 percent sales lead in the first three months of 2007, says Nielsen
Video Scan. Blu-ray backers say the widening lead is evidence of the format pulling away from
its competition; HD DVD supporters say their format will rebound thanks to lower player prices
and new title releases in time for the summer. - _SkyReport_


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## PetSounds66

I went HD-DVD last June...which means that Blu-Ray will likely win...:nono2:


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## Cholly

My guess is that the pendulum will swing the other way now that Toshiba has a sub $400 DVD HD player on the market. Blu-Ray has been the market leader due to the Sony PS3. I'm one of the many who have decided on DVD HD because of the price of the Toshiba player.


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## bluemoon737

Cholly said:


> My guess is that the pendulum will swing the other way now that Toshiba has a sub $400 DVD HD player on the market. Blu-Ray has been the market leader due to the Sony PS3. I'm one of the many who have decided on DVD HD because of the price of the Toshiba player.


I agree with the low priced Toshiba player helping, but once Pirates of the Caribbean, Cars, and Spiderman hit the shelves it will result in a HUGE spike for Blu-Ray. Content will likely win this "war".


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## Chris Blount

I have both so don't really care.  I would like to see HD-DVD come out on top but as bluemoon said, content will play a huge factor and Blu-Ray has the edge on that.


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## Michael D'Angelo

I have a PS3 for Blu-Ray and the HD-DVD add on for my Xbox360 for now. That was the cheapest way to go for now. When one of them win or a nice player they will play both come out I will buy a nice player than.


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## gazzie4

Don't forget what Matrix did for DVD and since we are only 3-4 weeks away from it hitting HD DVD, and not blu ray (may come out later this year on blu ray), we'll see what really happens in this market


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## Nick

Samsung's new BD-UP5000 sits squarely on the high-definition fence

If you're an AV pacifist then the whole next-generation DVD format war will no doubt be as
distasteful to you as kicking kittens. Luckily, Samsung wants you to preserve your moral
code by finding a peaceful compromise. Its new BS-UP5000 will play both HD DVD and
Blu-ray without so much as a cross word or angry gesture.

So, what does this mean for the formats? Well, the bad news for peace lovers is that one
of the formats is going to have to die...

More @ MSN.com


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## kfcrosby

Here we go.....

Wal-Mart Names HD DVD the Winner

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback184.html

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/04/walmart_muscle_.html


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## Cholly

bluemoon737 said:


> I agree with the low priced Toshiba player helping, but once Pirates of the Caribbean, Cars, and Spiderman hit the shelves it will result in a HUGE spike for Blu-Ray. Content will likely win this "war".


Both camps have their exclusives. In addition to the aforementioned Ultimate Matrix trilogy, HD DVD has Batman Begins, Caddyshack, Casablanca, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, The Perfect Storm, Phantom of the Opera, Poseidon, Terminator 3, Troy and V for Vendetta. Granted, not all are great movies, but they definitely have the visual "WOW!" effect.


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## tomcrown1

Nick said:


> Samsung's new BD-UP5000 sits squarely on the high-definition fence
> 
> If you're an AV pacifist then the whole next-generation DVD format war will no doubt be as
> distasteful to you as kicking kittens. Luckily, Samsung wants you to preserve your moral
> code by finding a peaceful compromise. Its new BS-UP5000 will play both HD DVD and
> Blu-ray without so much as a cross word or angry gesture.
> 
> So, what does this mean for the formats? Well, the bad news for peace lovers is that one
> of the formats is going to have to die...
> 
> More @ MSN.com[/QUOTE
> 
> The Samsung BD-UP5000 will be my next DVD---or it my be the pioneer as their are rumors that pioneer will have a universal DVD that will include DVDA and SACD.
> 
> Notice both audio formats are now dead can this happen to HDDVD and BLUE RAY DVD??
> 
> Will a new format come along the make the other format go bye bye ??


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## harsh

tomcrown1 said:


> The Samsung BD-UP5000 will be my next DVD---or it my be the pioneer as their are rumors that pioneer will have a universal DVD that will include DVDA and SACD.
> 
> Notice both audio formats are now dead can this happen to HDDVD and BLUE RAY DVD??
> 
> Will a new format come along the make the other format go bye bye ??


The problem with DVDA and SACD was that the content was essentially the same and you most don't have time to settle down in front of the home theatre system to listen to music while others are trying to watch TV. Anybody remember CD+G???

With the advanced interactive features and HD capabilities of the DVD HD video formats, I think they're sufficiently differentiated from DVD to make them worth going after.


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## Nick

PC Magazine:


> Wal-Mart denied rumors that it had placed a substantial order with a Taiwan supplier for
> ultra-cheap HD DVD players that could swing the format wars in that direction.
> 
> A spokesperson for the company said Thursday that reported leaks concerning Taiwan-
> based consumer electronics manufacturer, Fuh Yuan, partnering with TDK in China to
> manufacture the $250-299 players, had no merit. The report first appeared in AVS
> Forums, and was picked up by other Web sites.
> 
> "The article&#8230; was full of inaccuracies and we had no participation in it," the spokesman
> said in an e-mail to PC Magazine. "Most of the facts, including the purchase, were untrue,"
> she added. "Not sure how it originated." ...


More @ http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2122715,00.asp


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## Nick

*The HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray format war will not be
won by either format, but by dual-format players.*

Dual format high-definition DVD players will be the norm, says research

When LG Electronics launched its Super Multi Blue Player at the recent CES exhibition, it signaled an exit strategy from the "war of the high-definition DVD formats," according to research firm ABI Research. By creating a player that will accommodate both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs, the Korean manufacturer may have created a precedent that the rest of the industry will have to follow. ABI Research forecasts that such universal players will become the norm, not the exception, benefiting confused consumers unwilling to commit to one DVD camp or the other.

"We believe that universal players will come to dominate the high-definition DVD player market," says Steve Wilson, ABI Research's principal analyst of consumer electronics. Samsung is expected to release its own universal player soon, and others, including large CE vendors, may follow suit before long. ABI Research forecasts sales of 2.4 million players in 2007, rising to 55 million in 2011. ...

More @ www.abiresearch.com/abiprdisplay.jsp?pressid=796


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## wakajawaka

Just a heads up, while the LG does play HD DVD, it does not support any of the interactive menus. Now, I'm sure that will all change soon and we'll have a 100% compatible universal player.


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## wakajawaka

harsh said:


> The problem with DVDA and SACD was that the content was essentially the same and you most don't have time to settle down in front of the home theatre system to listen to music while others are trying to watch TV. Anybody remember CD+G???
> 
> With the advanced interactive features and HD capabilities of the DVD HD video formats, I think they're sufficiently differentiated from DVD to make them worth going after.


What really hurt DVD-A and SACD was the iPod (or mp3 players in general). Hi-Res audio is a niche market. I hope DVD-A and SACD don't completly die off, there are still a few of us out there that like to just sit and listen to music.


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## tomcrown1

wakajawaka said:


> What really hurt DVD-A and SACD was the iPod (or mp3 players in general). Hi-Res audio is a niche market. I hope DVD-A and SACD don't completly die off, there are still a few of us out there that like to just sit and listen to music.


AGREED!!!


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## Chris Blount

wakajawaka said:


> What really hurt DVD-A and SACD was the iPod (or mp3 players in general). Hi-Res audio is a niche market. I hope DVD-A and SACD don't completly die off, there are still a few of us out there that like to just sit and listen to music.


I agree but the reality is that in this new world of portability, just sitting a listening to music at home is rare. Heck, most of my music listening is done in my car which is where most of my money goes for audio.

The other thing is that the older I get, the less high resolution audio becomes a factor. I can barely hear above 15 KHZ so investing in high end audio electronics and hi res music is not practical. At least my eyes are still 20/20 with no need for glasses thus, Hi-Def video is what I love.


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## Cholly

Chris Blount said:


> The other thing is that the older I get, the less high resolution audio becomes a factor. I can barely hear above 15 KHZ so investing in high end audio electronics and hi res music is not practical. At least my eyes are still 20/20 with no need for glasses thus, Hi-Def video is what I love.


Chris, it's a common misconception that people with hearing losses or inability to hear extreme high or low frequencies won't benefit from high end sound systems. In actuality, the reverse is probably true, due to their more accurate reproduction of sound. You can perform a simple test -- listen to some music with wide dynamic range on a portable radio or common car radio or a low cost sound system, then listen to the same msic on a quality sound system. Although this is an oversimplification, I'd be surprised if you didn't notice the difference.


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## Chris Blount

Cholly said:


> Chris, it's a common misconception that people with hearing losses or inability to hear extreme high or low frequencies won't benefit from high end sound systems. In actuality, the reverse is probably true, due to their more accurate reproduction of sound. You can perform a simple test -- listen to some music with wide dynamic range on a portable radio or common car radio or a low cost sound system, then listen to the same msic on a quality sound system. Although this is an oversimplification, I'd be surprised if you didn't notice the difference.


There's no doubt that there's a difference but for those with hearing loss and tinnitus, is it really worth it? I guess that would be a personal decision.


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## Mavrick

Well I finally bought an HD-DVD player yesterday when my old standard DVD player died and my HD TV was crying for Hidef DVD and I could not see spending more money on and SD Player.

So I choose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray mostly because of the price and I could not be happier with the decision. Now that I have bought the HD-DVD player I look for the announcement any day that Blu-Ray is the format winner for that is just how my luck seems to go.


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## TheRatPatrol

Nick said:


> *The HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray format war will not be
> won by either format, but by dual-format players.*


I agree, just make players that can play all formats and be done with it.


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## Mavrick

theratpatrol said:


> I agree, just make players that can play all formats and be done with it.


And under a thousand dollars please for I looked at the LG that will play both formats but was not about to drop $1000.00 for a DVD player.


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## Chris Blount

Mavrick said:


> Well I finally bought an HD-DVD player yesterday when my old standard DVD player died and my HD TV was crying for Hidef DVD and I could not see spending more money on and SD Player.
> 
> So I choose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray mostly because of the price and I could not be happier with the decision. Now that I have bought the HD-DVD player I look for the announcement any day that Blu-Ray is the format winner for that is just how my luck seems to go.


Congrats and welcome to the club. You won't regret your purchase and to tell you the truth, the format war will be a non issue once dual format players become the norm.


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## paja

Mavrick said:


> Well I finally bought an HD-DVD player yesterday when my old standard DVD player died and my HD TV was crying for Hidef DVD and I could not see spending more money on and SD Player.
> 
> So I choose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray mostly because of the price and I could not be happier with the decision. Now that I have bought the HD-DVD player I look for the announcement any day that Blu-Ray is the format winner for that is just how my luck seems to go.


ENJOY! I got a Toshiba XA2 and could not be happier. Not only is the HD stunning(on my MITS 46231) but my SD DVDs never looked better.


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## Cholly

I bought a Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player from Amazon. At the same time, I ordered a HDMI switcher from Monoprice.com, since my Sony HDTV has only one HDMI input, and I also have an HD TiVo. Upon receiving the two units, I hooked them up and loaded up a DVD to see how upconversion would work. Less than 5 minutes into the movie, I was greeted by a black screen and loss of audio. I was going out of town for a week, so couldn't troubleshoot at the time. Today, I received my "Planet Earth" HD DVD's from Amazon and decided to try one out. Same result as with the regular DVD. Apparently, the HDCP handshake fails at times when using the switcher, although I saw no error message on the DVD player display. I connected the HDMI output of the player directly to the HDMI input of the TV and the DVD now played perfectly. I seem to have seen something somewhere (perhaps on the Toshiba web site) that they advise against using a switch box.  
BTW -- Planet Earth on HD DVD is awesome! It's quite different, hearing David Attenborough do the narration, rather than Sigourney Weaver.


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## Nick

*$200 In-store instant rebate on HD-DVD+TV combo buy *

The Retail Bridge:


> Companies supporting HD DVD are currently pushing big spring marketing and retail campaigns, including running in-cinema ads to promote the high def format for DVDs. The endeavor includes showing trailers promoting HD DVD before movie audiences. The trailers will play for four weeks, showcasing the audio and video quality and interactive features available with the format.
> 
> According to National CineMedia, the number the trailers are expected to reach about 30 million viewers, running across a network of 932 theaters and 12,000 screens nationwide, including top movie theater chains Regal, AMC and Cinemark. To augment the trailer campaign, Toshiba is offering a spring promotion for an instant, in-store rebate on select HD DVD players, bringing the price of some models down to $299.99. The efforts begin May 20 and end June 16.
> 
> Also, during the final week of the promotion, customers can buy any Toshiba HDTV 42-inches in size or larger along with any Toshiba HD DVD player and receive an instant $200 rebate in store on the collective purchase. In addition, consumers who purchase any Toshiba HD DVD player can also get five HD DVD titles for free, choosing from a selection of 15 movies. The offer is available through July 31.
> 
> Details on the promotion are available at http://www.toshibahddvd.com.


www.TheRetailBridge.com - used with permission


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## uscboy

Yep. Look at the Best Buy ad this week... sitting one above the other, Samsung 
Blu-Ray for $699 after savings, Toshiba HD DVD for $299 after savings.

I don't care what kind of minimal lead Blu-Ray has RIGHT NOW... with prices like 
that, they will lose unless they can get them under control. Joe 6-pack will not 
spend $700 on Blu-Ray. They have the studio edge right now, but if the numbers 
of units ends up like I think it will because of prices, then the Blu-Ray studios will 
have to start going neutral and offering HD DVDs.


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## ibglowin

Try some of the other ports on the HDMI switcher. I remember reading there was one port on that unit (Monoprice) that worked better than the others.



Cholly said:


> I bought a Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player from Amazon. At the same time, I ordered a HDMI switcher from Monoprice.com, since my Sony HDTV has only one HDMI input, and I also have an HD TiVo. Upon receiving the two units, I hooked them up and loaded up a DVD to see how upconversion would work. Less than 5 minutes into the movie, I was greeted by a black screen and loss of audio. I was going out of town for a week, so couldn't troubleshoot at the time. Today, I received my "Planet Earth" HD DVD's from Amazon and decided to try one out. Same result as with the regular DVD. Apparently, the HDCP handshake fails at times when using the switcher, although I saw no error message on the DVD player display. I connected the HDMI output of the player directly to the HDMI input of the TV and the DVD now played perfectly. I seem to have seen something somewhere (perhaps on the Toshiba web site) that they advise against using a switch box.
> BTW -- Planet Earth on HD DVD is awesome! It's quite different, hearing David Attenborough do the narration, rather than Sigourney Weaver.


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## Chris Blount

uscboy said:


> Yep. Look at the Best Buy ad this week... sitting one above the other, Samsung
> Blu-Ray for $699 after savings, Toshiba HD DVD for $299 after savings.
> 
> I don't care what kind of minimal lead Blu-Ray has RIGHT NOW... with prices like
> that, they will lose unless they can get them under control. Joe 6-pack will not
> spend $700 on Blu-Ray. They have the studio edge right now, but if the numbers
> of units ends up like I think it will because of prices, then the Blu-Ray studios will
> have to start going neutral and offering HD DVDs.


Agree. This is going to be an interesting war. BTW, Costco has them for $249!


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## 4DThinker

I think BluRay decks are going to have to hit that $249-$299 price before anyone declares the war over. And my guess is that you'll be able to buy an HD-DVD deck this Christmas for $199 or lower. If Walmart actually makes a deal with a manufacturer, they'll have a player for $149 as a thanksgiving black friday special, and all their HD-DVD movies on sale for perhaps $18.99.

Personally, I think HD-DVD could win if it would make deals with all the local rental outlets to be available at the same price to buy and rent as DVDs. Heck, even add a buck to the usual rental fee and they'd still win. In my little town the major grocery stores rent DVDs. I'll bet that more than 60% of rentals in this town are done when getting groceries. Yet no one is renting either BluRay or HD-DVD disks. The grocery store also sells a cheap DVD player for $29 (sometimes $19.99) just so no one passing buy will claim they don't rent movies becasue they can't afford a DVD player. If they'd sell a HD-DVD deck for $249 and have a huge assortment of HD-DVD movies to rent, they'd get thousands of "impulse" buys and HD-DVD would win. Better yet, put up a big 1080 LCD and have the latest HD movie playing as a demo. If the studios would provide a "clips" HD-DVD with short clips of all the latest HD-DVD movies to play in a loop, it would even improves rentals of those pricier "new releases". I can imagine a whole surround sound system with a good subwoofer installed in the back of my favorite grocery's DVD corner.


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## Nick

Warner Home Video said that it is the first studio to have sold more than 100,000 copies of a
single high-definition DVD title with "The Departed." The company attributed the milestone to
the fact that the movie was released on both Blu-ray and HD DVD. Warner is one of just two
studios to release films in both formats, with Paramount Home Entertainment being the other.
- _SkyReport_

No word on how many of the 100k copies of "The Departed" sold in each format.


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## hdtvfan0001

If you look at the numbers from Amazon, The Toshiba A2 is the #1 selling DVD player and #15 overall electronics item selling there. In addition, HD DVD sales are skyrocketing (The Matrix Trilogy is white hot in sales). In addition, the other Toshiba HD DVD format units are also selling very well.

Sorry Blu Ray...not only are you NOT winning the war, but now your losing the battles as well.

Between the PS3 lackluster sales, problems with numerous BRD titles/media, and problems with some of the equipment, HD DVD (at its lower price by far) has passed up Blu Ray this past weekend in sales of players and media.

Looking ahead, with the new HD DVD titles scheduled for June, July, and August...this will be a hot HD DVD selling season this summer. Blu Ray is going to be in a world of hurt at their much higher prices and with their shakey media.


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## ibglowin

No one is "winning this war" really sorry to burst your bubble.

One week its BD, the next its HD-DVD depending on what title is coming out that week. Way to early to gauge much of anything really. HD-DVD even had a 4-6 month head start out of the gate and BD has caught up to them and surpassed them on certain weeks for total media units sold to date. You mention "numerous problems" with BD titles. Care to elaborate? I own about 50 BD disc and have yet to experience a problem with one of them nor have I read much about any problems whatsoever with "shakey media" as you say. The new release of Pirates I and II on BD has required a JAVA update for new menus to work properly on some machines. Pretty straight forward and easy to fix IMHO. You didn't seem to mention any problems associated with HD-DVD disc for some reason. Guess you have never bought a "Combo Disc" from Universal and had to "boil it" in hot water to get it to play back properly only then to have the 2 layers physically break down and seperate later on.

For the record I am actually format neutral. I own a PS3 (great machine BTW) as well as an Xbox 360 addon drive connected to a PC. I have probably 3 times as many BD as HD-DVD for one reason. There is just not that much out there that is exclusive to HD-DVD that I really, really want. If I have a choice I will buy BD always over HD-DVD, its just that simple.

You can sell a lot of cheap HD-DVD players but what good does it do if you can't buy the movies you want to watch on it? Casino Royale, Pirates of the Carribean (or anything Disney or Sony Pictures for that matter). Not going to see them on HD-DVD thats for sure. As for a hot summer of hits from HD-DVD....

You have to be kidding. Here is the realease dates for this Summer on HD-DVD Its all old stuff and not much new and even fewer "blockbusters":

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html

Here is the release dates for this Summer BD in comparision:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html

The only thing that won't be released on BD are the Universal titles. Even the Matrix, Batman Begins etc, will be out on BD sooner or later as they are Warner titles and they are not exclusive to HD-DVD in any way.

Its actually a pretty boring Summer for both formats outside of a few big names and most of those are coming out on both formats at the same time, day and date (300 for example).

Since AACS was cracked shortly after Xmas all of the studios have pretty much come to a grinding halt releasing much of the blockbuster stuff as they try and revoke player keys, force software upgrades and whatever else they can to counter the cracks in AACS. Even BD has been cracked which is why even BD titles have come pretty much to a halt as well (with many new titles now delayed) as they try and counter the cracks in their system as well. At least BD has another layer of protection (BD+) that can be used as a last ditch effort against piracy, something HD-DVD doesn't have.

The "war" is far from over and sadly the only people likely to lose out are the consumers as long as we have two incompatible formats. Our only hope really is a cheap "dual format" player that would take care of the problem once and for all. Since these are $1200 at the moment its probably not going to happen soon unless others jump on the dual format bandwagon and economies of scale start to kick in. So sit on the fence and wait for a winner to emerge or relax, go format neutral and enjoy the ride.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> If you look at the numbers from Amazon, The Toshiba A2 is the #1 selling DVD player and #15 overall electronics item selling there. In addition, HD DVD sales are skyrocketing (The Matrix Trilogy is white hot in sales). In addition, the other Toshiba HD DVD format units are also selling very well.
> 
> Sorry Blu Ray...not only are you NOT winning the war, but now your losing the battles as well.
> 
> Between the PS3 lackluster sales, problems with numerous BRD titles/media, and problems with some of the equipment, HD DVD (at its lower price by far) has passed up Blu Ray this past weekend in sales of players and media.
> 
> Looking ahead, with the new HD DVD titles scheduled for June, July, and August...this will be a hot HD DVD selling season this summer. Blu Ray is going to be in a world of hurt at their much higher prices and with their shakey media.


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## Nick

Mike, excellent post and in-depth discussion of the state of the BD vs HD DVD war. 

Your post gets my vote for the DBSTalk "Post of the Week" award. :up:


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## Nick

The Retail Bridge:


> Despite its $499 price tag, the new BDP-S300 from Sony was developed with cost-conscious buyers in mind. The manufacturer's earlier Blu-ray model, the BDP-S1, currently retails for $799.
> 
> "The BD format gained great momentum in the past several months, and we're going to capitalize on that with the new model," said Chris Fawcett, vice president of marketing for Sony Electronics' Home Product Division. "The player gives a broader consumer segment the opportunity to experience the exceptional quality of Blu-ray Disc format at a competitive price."
> 
> The BDP-S300 can output HD video in resolutions up to 1920 x 1080/24p and supports various formats including MPEG2, MPEG4- AVC and VC1. It includes the Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 audio codec, Sony's BRAVIA Theatre Sync and HDMI connections. The unit also features an analog component 1080i output and can upscale existing DVDs to 1080p via HDMI.
> 
> According to Sony, the BDP-S300 is set to roll out to national retailers "shortly."


www.TheRetailBridge.com - used with permission


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## sansha

But the toshiba Hd-a2 is only 1080i. The toshiba HD-Xa2 is 1080p and that runs $700, comparable to the blu-ray model in price.


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## sansha

Here's new of a new blu ray player at a cheaper price -- from a circuit city email... oh, if they only had a good combo HD-blu & upconverting dvd player for that price!!

"Now this really IS news: Sony’s soon-to-be-released Blu-ray Disc 
player (BDP-S300) is now available for pre-order on circuitcity.com 
for only $499.99!

Like the Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray Disc player, the new player allows 
you to watch movies on your HDTV with 1080p high-definition 
output, extraordinary sound and interactive on-screen menus.

But now you can also play audio CDs and enjoy BRAVIA 
Theatre Sync, a feature which enables the player to communicate 
with compatible Sony devices using HDMI connections.

The BDP-S300 is even smaller and sleeker, and it’s being offered at 
a price lower than any other Blu-ray Disc player on the market.

So pre-order your Sony BDP-S300 Blu-ray Disc player today for 
only $499.99 and see what you’ve been missing!"


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## machavez00

sansha said:


> But the toshiba Hd-a2 is only 1080i. The toshiba HD-Xa2 is 1080p and that runs $700, comparable to the blu-ray model in price.


we must also take into consideration that the vast majority of HDTVs in service are 720p/1080i, for which a 1080p player is useless. (unless the TV manufactures can do a hardware/software upgrade to 1080p)


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## harsh

sansha said:


> But the toshiba Hd-a2 is only 1080i.


And the HD-A20 is "1080p" and also has a $499 MSRP.


> The toshiba HD-Xa2 is 1080p and that runs $700, comparable to the blu-ray model in price.


Comparable in price, but that doesn't take into account the relative value of each machine.


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## harsh

sansha said:


> Like the Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray Disc player, the new player allows you to watch movies on your HDTV with 1080p high-definition output, extraordinary sound and interactive on-screen menus.


Is BD's version of 1080p always 1080p/24?


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## Nick

*"...weekly HD DVD player sales doubled in April"*

The Retail Bridge:


> Is HD DVD Really Winning The High-Def Format War?
> 
> According to a report released Monday by the admittedly biased HD DVD Promotional Group, HD DVD players accounted for 60 percent of all the high definition set-top players sold in the last month.
> 
> What's the catch? Let's just say that the $100 rebate on Toshiba's HD-A2 player and the free HD DVD movies it's been offering with purchase had something to do with it.
> 
> "Toshiba's latest promotional efforts are clearly resonating with consumers and showing that price is king when it comes to hardware," said Craig Kornblau, chairman of the North American HD DVD Promotional Group. "Behind the increase in sales for hardware and movies, you're seeing fundamentally lower manufacturing costs and ease of authoring for HD DVD. That's the type of model that can scale."
> 
> According to the report, weekly HD DVD player sales doubled in April when prices were cut from $499 to $399, and doubled again during the company's May promotion. As a result of the deal, customers have so far bought upwards of 150,000 HD DVD players, making the Toshiba HD-A2 the best selling next-gen DVD player on the market. In addition, an all time high of more than 75,000 HD DVD movie titles have been sold in the last month.
> 
> Despite the obvious, part of this has to do with an overall increase in high definition sales, Kornblau said. Consumers spent $5.2 million on HD hardware and content last week alone, representing a 31 percent jump in sales over the previous single-week record.


 www.TheRetailBridge.com - used with permission


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## n-spring

> TOKYO (Reuters) - Japan's Toshiba Corp. has slashed its sales target for high definition DVD players and recorders after disappointing sales in the U.S., putting a damper on prospects for one of its growth businesses.
> 
> "Sales in the U.S. have been slower than expected, and we are going to have to lower our U.S. sales forecast," said Yoshihide Fujii, head of Toshiba's digital consumer business.


The rest of the story is here.


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## Cholly

It may be that you'll have to own both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players or a dual format player in order to have access to all your favorite films, unless the studios finally break down and offer their product in both formats. The one thing that keeps people from selecting HD-DVD as their only player is the holdout of studios like Sony and Disney.

Why do I say this? It's less expensive to produce HD-DVD media than Blu-Ray. HD-DVD's can be produced on the same lines as conventional DVD's. Blu-Ray's big advantage has been disk capacity. 

For audiophiles, the biggest disadvantage of the Toshiba HD-A20 is the fact that disks recorded with Dolby Digital Plus will play back in DTS format if your receiver doesn't have Dolby Plus capability.


----------



## Nick

CORRECTION -- In yesterday's "Is HD DVD Really Winning The High-Def Format
War?" (see post #43 above) the writer erroneously stated that "an all time high of
more than 75,000 HD DVD movie titles have been sold in the last month." In fact,
more than 75,000 titles were sold in the last week of May alone.


----------



## ibglowin

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=840632

Big BUY HD-DVD campaign in late May orver at AVS


----------



## machavez00

LOS ANGELES - Blockbuster Inc. will rent high-definition DVDs only in the Blu-ray format in 1,450 stores when it expands its high-def offerings next month, dealing a major blow to the rival HD DVD format. The move, being announced Monday, could be the first step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market

Read the full story *here*

Wal-Mart has not weighed in with their choice. What happens if they choose HD-DVD and sell players and disks priced to move?


----------



## ibglowin

Woa!

This is gonna shake things up a bit.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

machavez00 said:


> LOS ANGELES - Blockbuster Inc. will rent high-definition DVDs only in the Blu-ray format in 1,450 stores when it expands its high-def offerings next month, dealing a major blow to the rival HD DVD format. The move, being announced Monday, could be the first step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market
> 
> Read the full story *here*
> 
> Wal-Mart has not weighed in with their choice. What happens if they choose HD-DVD and sell players and disks priced to move?


I just finished with the story...

Here is my take:

I was in my hometown this weekend... and drove by the Blockbuster Video that I worked at for 5 years when I was a teenager... (so almost 20 years ago).

The Location.... over the past 5 years, has gone from 5 units in the stripmall, down to 3, then down to 1... and now... it is gone (closed on June 1st).

With the other Blockbuster closings over the last two years... there is actually now only 2 location2 in my hometown area... when in years past, there used to be 7. (I had to work them all at times).

What I will find more intresting, is what Blockbuster carries on their "mail" service... and what NetFlix decides on.

Hollywood Video... at least in our area, decided on HD-DVD (they don't have many titles, but they don't carry blu-ray, at least in my two local shops).

So while it may make a dent in the field... I think it is more of a factor that BBV can't afford to support both of them.... I barely think they will be able to afford the one.

IMHO... BBV and store-front video rental, is drastically on it's way down.
The movies are too expensive to rent ($5 a rental at our local BBV), as compared to the purchase price ($15 for SD-DVD on release week)... not sure what they will charge for Blu-Ray, but almost certain it will be as expensive if not more.

The little "Red-Box" company is making strides, at $1 a day, and just a little automated system outside the grocery store (we have about 8 locations that I know about in our area).

So while on the surface... It might seem like a big-blow.
I still feel it is going to be the online-renters, and the retail of those disks... that are going to make the big difference.

Really... what is going to make the big difference, is the content... right now, the studios are the one that have all the power to shift the argument to which one will win.

And as long as they are "pissing and moaning" about it, we the consumers will get stuck in limbo....


----------



## dmspen

Netflix carries HD DVD and has for a while now. I think this is why BB is going blu - just because the other guys aren't!


----------



## Tom Robertson

I think one telling part of the story is the ratio of Blu-ray to HD they were renting. 7:3 is a much bigger differential than I expected this early in the format war.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

dmspen said:


> Netflix carries HD DVD and has for a while now. I think this is why BB is going blu - just because the other guys aren't!


Netflix has HD DVD and Blu Ray. I get both from them.


----------



## BudShark

dmspen said:


> Netflix carries HD DVD and has for a while now. I think this is why BB is going blu - just because the other guys aren't!


Yes - but to do a fair analogy:

Blockbuster online does and will continue to carry BOTH formats. This announcement pertains to Brick and Mortar stores only.

Everyone keeps touting this as a NetFlix win (I know you didn't - but I quoted your post so your getting wrapped up) - when in reality the Netflix/Blockbuster online debate is irrelevant to this post.

What is more important is the facts presented:
1) More titles in Blu-Ray with more studio support and more exclusives
2) Blu-Ray titles from shelves were churning more

In the end the format is irrelevant. The titles are what is important. And Blu-Ray has that right now - evidenced by studio support and B&M churn. Sales can be skewed easily by promotions (so - were those 5 HD-DVDs that were free with your player counted as sales? I bet they were!) and old titles. Rentals are more relevant to product/industry interest. For a format to be 'fresh' you want rental churn - that tells you what the mass consumer is doing, not the niche players.

Chris


----------



## harsh

Earl Bonovich said:


> IMHO... BBV and store-front video rental, is drastically on it's way down.
> The movies are too expensive to rent ($5 a rental at our local BBV), as compared to the purchase price ($15 for SD-DVD on release week)... not sure what they will charge for Blu-Ray, but almost certain it will be as expensive if not more.


I very much appreciate the insight. "How the mighty have fallen" applies in many industries.

As I live in the land of Hollywood Video, there doesn't seem to be much room in my area for anyone else. The only other stores that seem to do a reasonable business are the ones that cater to the Latino and adult video viewers.


----------



## harsh

Here's a shuttlecock to volley about:

What are PS3 owners supposed to rent if not Blu-ray movies?

I just bought my HD-DVD player on Saturday, but I already had six or seven titles on my shelf. Given the current state of movies in the theater, I suspect that the only "exclusive" that Blu-ray has that I might miss is _Casino Royale_. I made a huge purchase at the Warner Brother's online store and a couple of really inexpensive titles at Costco ($19 for _Batman Begins_ and _Phantom of the Opera_).

As I see it, Blu-ray announcing a number of future releases has been similar to DIRECTV listing all of the channels that it plans to carry.

I do like the idea that there are more players in the Blu-ray hardware camp, but it doesn't seem to have lead to affordable players nor recorders.


----------



## BudShark

harsh - I don't get your PS3 owners comment. I guess they would rent the same thing an HD-DVD player owner would rent - DVDs. Not sure your point.

Also, in terms of the "exclusives" - it just depends on what you want. Based on the summer blockbuster series, of the big 3 movies (Shrek, Pirates, Spiderman), 2 of those will be Blu-Ray exclusives (as are the early versions which are already out). There's a lot of titles out for Blu-Ray NOW. I personally haven't seen Blu-Ray touting future releases anymore than HD-DVD.

I'm neutral in this game. I actually wanted HD-DVD to win for hardware reasons, but unfortunately I think I am going to have to go Blu-Ray (and this was before the Blockbuster announcement which is just another step). I agree with the earlier comment that Blu-Ray seems assurred of surviving. Now its just a matter of whether HD-DVD lives or dies.

Chris


----------



## Cholly

BudShark said:


> harsh - I don't get your PS3 owners comment. I guess they would rent the same thing an HD-DVD player owner would rent - DVDs. Not sure your point.
> 
> Also, in terms of the "exclusives" - it just depends on what you want. Based on the summer blockbuster series, of the big 3 movies (Shrek, Pirates, Spiderman), 2 of those will be Blu-Ray exclusives (as are the early versions which are already out). There's a lot of titles out for Blu-Ray NOW. I personally haven't seen Blu-Ray touting future releases anymore than HD-DVD.
> 
> I'm neutral in this game. I actually wanted HD-DVD to win for hardware reasons, but unfortunately I think I am going to have to go Blu-Ray (and this was before the Blockbuster announcement which is just another step). I agree with the earlier comment that Blu-Ray seems assurred of surviving. Now its just a matter of whether HD-DVD lives or dies.
> 
> Chris


Chris: Blockbuster is working with flawed data from last year. At the time, it was cheaper to get a PS/3 with Blu-Ray capability (figuring you were getting both an advanced game console and Blu-Ray player all in one) than to buy an HD DVD player. Now that Toshiba has been selling HD DVD players for as low as $268 and kicking in five free HD DVD's, there is probably a big turnabout in market share.
Blockbuster even admitted that the "PS/3 effect" probably had something to do with Blu-Ray disk popularity. 
As to sheer number of titles available AT THIS TIME, I think HD DVD has the edge. The secret weapon of the Blu-Ray camp is the fact that Sony Pictures and Disney have stated that they plan to support only Blu-Ray. Not too surprising, considering they are founding members of the Blu-Ray alliance.


----------



## harsh

BudShark said:


> harsh - I don't get your PS3 owners comment. I guess they would rent the same thing an HD-DVD player owner would rent - DVDs. Not sure your point.


I was speaking of the dearth of PS3 titles at rental stores.


----------



## BudShark

Cholly said:


> Chris: Blockbuster is working with flawed data from last year. At the time, it was cheaper to get a PS/3 with Blu-Ray capability (figuring you were getting both an advanced game console and Blu-Ray player all in one) than to buy an HD DVD player. Now that Toshiba has been selling HD DVD players for as low as $268 and kicking in five free HD DVD's, there is probably a big turnabout in market share.
> Blockbuster even admitted that the "PS/3 effect" probably had something to do with Blu-Ray disk popularity.
> As to sheer number of titles available AT THIS TIME, I think HD DVD has the edge. The secret weapon of the Blu-Ray camp is the fact that Sony Pictures and Disney have stated that they plan to support only Blu-Ray. Not too surprising, considering they are founding members of the Blu-Ray alliance.


Flawed original data or not - my point still remains. Rental is about current titles, and if you are Blockbuster and you look at the 'tea leaves' what do you think will be the top 5 rentals this Fall? Maybe the top 5 movies of the summer? Seems logical. And oh by the way - all 5 of those are on Blu-Ray. Only 2 on HD-DVD (unless studios change their declared allegiance). So.... who you gonna put your money on in the short term rental business?

Chris


----------



## djlong

Personally, I think that if Universal decides to go both ways and add Blu-Ray, that will be the death knell for HD-DVD.


----------



## Cholly

I've spent a fair amount of time today looking for a complete listing of high definition DVD's (from both camps) and have come up empty. Seems I stumbled on one a month or two ago, and failed to bookmark it. Can someone feed me a link?


----------



## ibglowin

Here is my favorite site. They have pages for both formats. Nice site.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html


----------



## Cholly

ibglowin said:


> Here is my favorite site. They have pages for both formats. Nice site.
> 
> http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html
> 
> http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html


Perfect! Thanks, Mike!:goodjob: :joy:


----------



## Nick

The Retail Bridge:


> Faced with a falling market share and recent wins for Blu-ray (like Blockbuster's announcement that it would phase out HD DVD rentals), Toshiba this week announced a firmware upgrade for its HD DVD players that will enable the downloading of web-enabled HD content.
> 
> "Through web-enabled network connectivity, HD DVD is unlocking the door to an entirely new world of entertainment and once again achieving another milestone in next generation DVD," said Jodi Sally, vice president of marketing with Toshiba's Digital A/V Group. "With HD DVD, studios have the ability to develop new and unique content for movie fans, enabling consumers to have an entirely new way to access entertainment and customize their home movie experience that is currently not available with any other format."
> 
> The upgrade allows Toshiba's HD DVD players to download bonus features from a movie studio's server or unlock content hidden on select discs. This information can then be stored on the player itself, "enhancing" the existing content. Users can also upload content and provide feedback on titles they like, don't like.
> 
> "While others may talk about interactivity, HD DVD has proven time and time again that it offers true interactive features and capabilities for consumers which can make the enjoyment of movies a new experience every time they're viewed," Sally said.
> 
> Toshiba is also making its promotional prices of $299.99 for the HD- A2 and $399.99 for the HD-A20 permanent and will, starting this September, upgrade both players to 24 frames-per-second.


www.TheRetailBridge.com - used with permission


----------



## machavez00

The makers of Digital Video Essentials have made their choice. I don't see a Blu version on the web site


machavez00 said:


> For those of you with an HD-DVD player and those thinking of getting one. Combo disk so when you move up you are good to go!
> *Program notes* (147 page pdf) http://www.videoessentials.com


----------



## Cholly

Battle Won, War far from over. http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2007/07/batle_won_war_i.php


----------



## machavez00

Time for Walmart's oft' denied sub $200 player to hit stores


----------



## Nick

SkyReport:


> Just when we thought HD DVD was down for the count, Amazon and Microsoft Monday announced plans to sell as many as 1,000 indie titles on HD DVD through Amazon's CustomFlix Labs DVD On Demand program in an effort to support grassroots filmmaking.
> 
> "From a technical standpoint, we found that the HD DVD format fits our business model perfectly," said Dana LoPiccolo-Giles, co-founder and managing director of CustomFlix. "With retail shelf space at a premium, our model eliminates the risk of carrying inventory and immediately expands the number of great HD DVD titles available to consumers."
> 
> The program, which will produce and ship HD DVD titles as they are ordered, is being touted as a more cost-effective way for small-time filmmakers to distribute their content in HD. Amazon and Microsoft will offer free authoring and HD setup services to up to 1,000 indie titles as part of the project.
> 
> For the HD DVD format, however, the partnership could also become a key promotional tool, getting HD DVD discs into the hands of the viewers that most value high definition. Amazon currently offers about 300 HD DVD titles compared to more than 400 in Blu-ray format.
> 
> And, of course, Amazon sells more than a few HDTVs and HD DVD players. Perhaps this program will help them move a few more of those.


www.SkyReport.com - used with permission


----------



## Nick

The European Union (EU) Commission asked several major Hollywood movie studios
today to defend their choice between the battling high-definition DVD formats of HD
DVD and Blu-ray. The international agency is seeking to find whether the studios are
breaking EU regulations that prohibit companies from shutting out rivals from a market-
place. Sony's Blu-ray has won support from Disney, News Corp.'s 20th Century Fox
and Sony Pictures, while GE's Universal Studios releases high-def movies exclusively
on HD DVD. Commision spokesman Jonathan Todd said regulators are only looking
for information on how studios choose which format to use for filmreleases at this stage
and had not accused the companies of violating antitrust law. - _The Evening Bridge_


----------



## DCSholtis

Well I bit the bullet and have entered the Blu Ray territory. Purchased the Sony BDP S-300 yesterday. Was feeling so good after that I went and bought the new Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD2 camcorder. Wish me luck.


----------



## Nick

According to the blatantly biased European office of the HD DVD Promotional
Group, HD DVD players have outsold Blu-ray players in Europe by 3-to-1. The
group did not release sales data but claimed to have 74 percent of the market
for standalone players in Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Switzerland.
_- SkyReport_

Ed. note:


----------



## Nick

HDTV Magazine:


> HD DVD Outpacing All Next-Gen Formats in Sales Growth
> 
> by Shane Sturgeon
> 
> (excerpt)
> 
> At the Entertainment Merchants Association (EMA) Home Media Expo 2007, the North American HD DVD Promotional Group today announced that overall HD DVD hardware sales were up 37 percent from Q1 to Q2 2007, while software sales experienced a 20 percent increase in growth. The data is based on NPD reports, Nielsen Netratings reports and point of sale data from the studios. During the same time-frame, overall Blu-ray hardware sales saw a 27 percent decline from Q1 to Q2, and Blu-ray software sales were down 5 percent.
> 
> Driven by major spring marketing efforts which brought standalone HD DVD players down to an industry first $299, dedicated HD DVD CE players experienced an astounding 183 percent quarterly increase. There are currently more than 180,000 dedicated HD DVD CE players in the market. ...


More @ HDTVMagazine.com


----------



## Nick

In an effort to promote Blu-ray technology, Walt Disney Studios has announced
Disney's Magical Blu-ray Tour, which will visit 18 malls across the country starting
Aug. 17. Sponsored by Panasonic, the tour aims to educate buyers about the
advantages of Blu-ray. - _SkyReport_


----------



## Richard King

Samsung Introduces Dual HD, Other New Hi-Def Players
http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=70750&var=story#70750


> Samsung Electronics announced Wednesday the upcoming release of a line of "third-generation" high-definition disc players, including the company's first-ever dual-format player....
> 
> The dual-format player, known as the BD-UP5000 Duo HD Player, supports both the standard and interactive technologies of both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. It will debut in the fourth quarter of this year at a suggested retail price of $1,049.


More....


----------



## bkwest918

Lets see how many formats has sony come up with that is wide spread today?

/b


----------



## machavez00

Richard King said:


> Samsung Introduces Dual HD, Other New Hi-Def Players
> http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=70750&var=story#70750
> 
> More....


Sounds like Samsung knows something, Just wish it was priced a little better. I have a Sammy DLP and would think they would work better together than the LG, besides the LG does not fully support HD-DVD. Any way, that A2 at Costco is looking better everyday.


----------



## machavez00

bkwest918 said:


> Lets see how many formats has sony come up with that is wide spread today?
> 
> /b


hmm, ßetamax, no; Digital8, no; minidisc, no; UMD, no; BluRay, hmmm


----------



## machavez00

ßeta VS VHS

http://www.povonline.com/cols/COL289.htm


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Bottom line - I think whoever gets a $199 unit onto Walmart shelves wins. Everything else is immaterial. If someone says, oh, it's Blockbuster or the porn industry or the studios or whatever, you're fighting yesterday's war. It's the $$$.


----------



## ShawnL25

lamontcranston said:


> Bottom line - I think whoever gets a $199 unit onto Walmart shelves wins. Everything else is immaterial. If someone says, oh, it's Blockbuster or the porn industry or the studios or whatever, you're fighting yesterday's war. It's the $$$.


In time they both will have a $100 player in stores, the thing is the only format that can win is blu ray, and there is little doubt that eventually universal will start releasing on blu ray, it will be a very long time before Disney or Fox will switch sides. I don't know if Sony ever will. The purchase of material goods is never immaterial.


----------



## jutley

ShawnL25 said:


> the thing is the only format that can win is blu ray


Why do you think that only BR can win?


----------



## bkwest918

machavez00 said:


> hmm, ßetamax, no; Digital8, no; minidisc, no; UMD, no; BluRay, hmmm


Do you see the pattern. I agree the first to get the $199 or less player on the shelf at wal-mart will win. Sony will be bull headed about this I'm sure. At this rate I feel HD-DVD will win in the end.

/b


----------



## tomcrown1

Please do not bet on HDD or Blue Ray as a new format at $100 will be released around X-Mas time that is all I can say for now


----------



## jutley

tomcrown1 said:


> Please do not bet on HDD or Blue Ray as a new format at $100 will be released around X-Mas time that is all I can say for now


A 3rd HD format other than HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?


----------



## tomcrown1

jutley said:


> A 3rd HD format other than HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?


It is a hoax the reason why I posted that is that no one at this point knows which format will win. That is why I am waiting for a good dual format DVD to hit the market. I will probably get the Pioneer Elite as this unit will also include SACD and HDDVD support.

Expect around X-Mas time several dual DVD players to be out on the market place.

This is not a hoax


----------



## ShawnL25

jutley said:


> Why do you think that only BR can win?


Because they are the only of the two formats that could reasonably release content from all the major studio's. I don't know that there will ever be a day when Spiderman is released on HD-DVD; The Mummy however could end up on blu ray disc by Christmas. I don't think it is assuming too much that people are buying these next gen players to actually watch movies. For the record I don't like Sony either. I'm a Nintendo guy and I think the Samsung TV's are better.


----------



## jutley

I'm with the shadow on this one...whichever format gets the cheap player that joe public can afford will drive the decision. I could be wrong...it happens now and then. :grin:


----------



## machavez00

hd-dvd is less expensive to manufacture and can be done on existing dvd equipment, and when Sony comes out with a dual format player(like Samsung), just like they did when they released their first vhs machine... game over for bluray.

Toshiba is getting closer, you can buy the A2 at Coscto for $249


----------



## Richard King

I very much want to get an HD DVD of one variety or another, but I am going to wait until the format war is over or a reasonably priced combo unit makes it to market.


----------



## Drew2k

Richard King said:


> I very much want to get an HD DVD of one variety or another, but I am going to wait until the format war is over or a reasonably priced combo unit makes it to market.


Same here. I want one player that can handle both formats wihtout restrictions, so the current LG unit is out. If this Samsung player can handle both formats, including the HD-DVD interactivity that the LG combo unit can't handle, that's a step in the right direction, but the $1K price is still just a little pricey for me. ($650 and I might go for it.)

However, what I *really* want is a 5-disc combo player. I would pay $1K for that.


----------



## djlong

So Target announces it will only stock Blu-Ray and Microsoft knocks 10% off it's HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 (down to $179).

I say HD-DVD losing Target is a bigger blow.

Next round!


----------



## Nick

> Target Corp., the nation's second-largest retailer, will start selling a Sony Blu-ray high-definition DVD player during the critical holiday shopping period and feature the player along with Blu-ray discs in store displays, dealing a potential blow to the rival HD DVD format.
> 
> The move, which the companies will formally announce Thursday, is another step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.
> 
> Target said it will sell the Sony BDP-S300 for $499 in October and display it along with Blu-ray DVDs from three studios, including Sony Corp. and Walt Disney, at the ends of store aisles.
> 
> The Target announcement comes five weeks after a decision by video rental chain Blockbuster to offer only Blu-ray titles when it expands its high-def offerings this fall...
> 
> More @ www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/25/ap3952696.html





djlong said:


> So Target announces it will only stock Blu-Ray and Microsoft knocks 10% off it's HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 (down to $179).
> 
> I say HD-DVD losing Target is a bigger blow...


 <groan> I favor HD DVD and I love Target Stores...and after almost
five years of doing without, we just got our first Target store this week.

Just damn! :nono2:


----------



## Nick

*Movie and TV fans get a first look at Heroes: Season 1,
300, and STAR TREK: The Original Series on HD DVD*


> SAN DIEGO (July 26th, 2007) - The HD DVD Promotional Group today announced at Comic-Con International 2007 that companies supporting HD DVD showcased some of the most anticipated movie and TV titles for fantasy and sci-fi fans, including Heroes: Season 1 from Universal Studios Home Entertainment, 300 from Warner Home Video, and STAR TREK: The Original Series from CBS Home Entertainment and Paramount Home Entertainment. Microsoft Corp. announced that it would reduce the price of its popular Xbox 360 HD DVD Player in the United States to $179, as well as adding five free HD DVD movies with the purchase of every player.
> 
> "HD DVD is the format of choice for great sci-fi content, from movies and hit TV shows to the classics," said Ken Graffeo, co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. "Heroes: Season 1 and the original Star Trek series are only available on HD DVD, and blockbuster titles such as 300 have interactive features you can only find here. HD DVD is the format that caters to the fan base..."


More @ HDTVMagazine.com


----------



## machavez00

Nick said:


> *Movie and TV fans get a first look at Heroes: Season 1,
> 300, and STAR TREK: The Original Series on HD DVD*
> Quote:
> SAN DIEGO (July 26th, 2007) - The HD DVD Promotional Group today announced at Comic-Con International 2007 that companies supporting HD DVD showcased some of the most anticipated movie and TV titles for fantasy and sci-fi fans, including Heroes: Season 1 from Universal Studios Home Entertainment, 300 from Warner Home Video, and STAR TREK: The Original Series from CBS Home Entertainment and Paramount Home Entertainment. Microsoft Corp. announced that it would reduce the price of its popular Xbox 360 HD DVD Player in the United States to $179, as well as adding five free HD DVD movies with the purchase of every player.
> 
> "HD DVD is the format of choice for great sci-fi content, from movies and hit TV shows to the classics," said Ken Graffeo, co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. "Heroes: Season 1 and the original Star Trek series are only available on HD DVD, and blockbuster titles such as 300 have interactive features you can only find here. HD DVD is the format that caters to the fan base..."
> More @ HDTVMagazine.com


Star Trek TOS on HD-DVD, That seals it!


----------



## djlong

I've been considering buying TOS once the newly remastered and re-CGI'ed episodes are released.


----------



## Cholly

djlong said:


> So Target announces it will only stock Blu-Ray and Microsoft knocks 10% off it's HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 (down to $179).
> 
> I say HD-DVD losing Target is a bigger blow.
> 
> Next round!


I wouldn't bet on it. Does this mean Target won't sell the XBox360 HD Drive? Probably not. Also, until someone comes out with a BR player for $299, most people will be more likely to go for HD DVD. Granted, Target is a major retailer, but I'm not certain that they have as big an impact on consumer electronics as Wal-Mart (soon to be pushing HD DVD), Sears, Circuit City, Best Buy, Fry's and HHGRegg. The Blu-Ray sales figures have been inflated because of the PS3 having a Blu-Ray drive. That led to heavy initial sales of Blu-Ray DVD's, but that has flattened.
The biggest driving force behind buying a Blu-Ray player is the fact that Disney and Sony support only the Blu-Ray format. However, both are still putting out all their releases in Wide Screen format on standard DVD's. Given that HD DVD players do a good job of upconverting standard DVD's to "near HD" quality, people still have a choice.

_Edit:_ I just went over to the High Definition DVD players forums on AVSFORUM and discovered two things: 1) Target has not stated it won't be selling HD DVD players. In fact, they sell the Toshiba HD-A2 on their web site, and sell both Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies in their brick & mortar stores. Rather, Sony has bought an endcap feature in the Target stores, that will have only Blu-Ray players and Blu-Ray movies.
2). HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray is a highly emotionally charged issue over there. Kinda reminds me of the battles over religion and politics you used to see here.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Remember DVD+R vs DVD-R, what happened? Burners support both now. (well, on the computers they do, set top boxes are always iffy because of the price point issue). But a cheaper play will factor in. The Toshiba HD player at $250 with 5 free HD Movies, now that's a deal! So much so, that Sony dropped the PS3 player $100 and added a mail in rebate for 5 free blue-ray movies. But it will still cost you twice as much to buy a Blu-Ray player!!! What's more impressive, I just got my 5 free HD DVD Movies and we bought the player about a month ago!

Who owns the HD DVD Technology? Toshiba?

And unless it's a black friday deal, there will be no $99 deals on HD DVD Players for Christmas. I wonder if I can pick up a PS3 for $199 on black friday?


----------



## BudShark

Cholly said:


> Given that HD DVD players do a good job of upconverting standard DVD's to "near HD" quality, people still have a choice.


Yes - BUT (big but) anyone buying HD DVD players will not be Joe Six Pack and accept "near HD" from two major studios. Also - take a look at the summer blockbusters. Its about 30-40% release on HD DVD, 100% release on Blu-Ray. Hmmm... content vs. money... HD DVD has cheaper players. Blu-Ray has content, and everyday they widen that gap. HD DVD can't widen the $$$ gap much more than now. When you go to the store and find Pirates, SpiderMan, Shrek, Harry Potter, etc. all on Blu-Ray - but only Shrek and Harry Potter on HD DVD thats a big push. And once Universal decides to release Blu-Ray the content war will be over. The most HD-DVD will be able to do is drop to $99 and thats a stretch. But if they do, Blu-Ray will go to $299. HD DVD is already being marginalized. I know people who think HD DVD is upconverting - but Blu-Ray is TRUE HD (they are wrong, but they think this because of prices and title availability)



Cholly said:


> _Edit:_ I just went over to the High Definition DVD players forums on AVSFORUM and discovered two things: 1) Target has not stated it won't be selling HD DVD players. In fact, they sell the Toshiba HD-A2 on their web site, and sell both Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies in their brick & mortar stores. Rather, Sony has bought an endcap feature in the Target stores, that will have only Blu-Ray players and Blu-Ray movies.


HD DVD spin. Target HAS stated they will carry ONLY Blu-Ray players in their B&M. What they do online or what movies they carry is unknown. But if you walk into a Target between now and 2008 you will find ONLY Blu-Ray players (X-Box HD-DVD is an add-on, not a player).



Cholly said:


> 2). HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray is a highly emotionally charged issue over there. Kinda reminds me of the battles over religion and politics you used to see here.


Here you are correct. 
I am actually format neutral - BUT - based on the movies I want and my family wants, I guarantee you I will buy a Blu-Ray compatible player. HD DVD is becomming irrelevant to me.

Chris


----------



## Richard King

http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=70798&var=story#70798


> The deal is exclusive; HD DVD players will not be carried at the retailer.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

djlong said:


> So Target announces it will only stock Blu-Ray and Microsoft knocks 10% off it's HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 (down to $179).
> 
> I say HD-DVD losing Target is a bigger blow.
> 
> Next round!


Target?

Are you kidding....

They may be big in retail...but not in electronics sales, especially $500 Blu Ray units....heck...the big box stores have trouble selling those.

On Amazon (who sells more electronics in one month that Target will in 2 years) the only HD disk players that are selling (3 of the top 15 players for any platform) are HD DVD units. Blue Ray's first listing in terms of sales is barely in the top 40.

To date, if you exclude PS3's, there's a 60/40 HD DVD player advantage in the U.S. and 70/30 advantage in Europe. Disk sales worldwide are virtually even.

Since the PS3's haven't seemed to give Blu Ray any disk sales advantages, Sony has failed miserably with their Blu Ray format.

Right now, movie viewers are buying HD DVD. Game players are buying PS3's and renting movies, not buying them (in general). The disk sales numbers support this fact.

More new HD disk title releases have been announced for the timeframe between now and Nov 1 on HD DVD than Blu Ray...and there are some major titles set for the holiday season on HD DVD.

HD DVD disks are less expensive, and their players are 1/2 the cost.

Based on all this....HD DVD will win out.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Who knows... 

Personally I don't by consumer electronics at Target but that's because I'm within shooting distance of two Circuit City's, two Best Buy's, and there's a Fry's on my way home from work. Not everyone is so lucky. If you're in the middle of nowhere and your choices are Wal-Mart, Target, or the internet, maybe you do buy your electronics there. 

My local Target stocks as decent supply of LCD TV's, and their stock seems to stay fresh so they must sell them. 

Now, if Wal-Mart enters the fray with a $199 HD-DVD player, I say call the game right there for HD-DVD.


----------



## allargon

Basically, Target and Wal-Mart are shaking Toshiba and Sony down.

Sony paid for the endcap and put their previously "premium" brand where it had not been sold in a long time. 

Toshiba needs to hit Microsoft (and maybe Universal) up for some money and pay for their own endcaps at Fry's, Best Buy, Target, Wal-Mart, K-Mart (still matters in urban areas), Costco, Sams, Circuit City, etc. with a $199 (really $99-150 is the sweet spot) player. Then it really will be game over. They also need to have Universal bribe RedBox to counter the Blockbuster announcement. (Do you really think Netflix and Blockbuster are causing each other that much pain? I do believe there's at least one additional element at work.)


----------



## BudShark

I don't think price is the #1 component here.

I don't care if you offerred me a $49 HD-DVD player. Sure I'd buy it, but I wouldn't be satisfied until I could get Sony, Fox, Disney, et al on the HD player. Thats where the general consensus comes from that Blu-Ray is here to stay, but HD-DVD might or might not be.

Yes - we are probably heading toward dual-format players as the solution long term, but to declare HD-DVD as the winner would, in my opinion, to be declaring High Definition video discs as a total loss.

My reason for this is simple: content. If a significant amount of current release blockbusters are only on Blu-Ray - but HD-DVD has "won" because of a low price player, then HD movies are not what most people are renting/watching.

Sony won't fold anytime soon. Disney won't fold anytime soon. So that means from this summer alone Spider-Man and Pirates will NOT be on HD-DVD within the next 1-2 years. That doesn't count any of the other Blu-Ray exclusives because those studios might jump ship.

So that leaves price. And legitimately the price differential is about $200 right now - but BOTH are priced too high for mass buying by the consumer to influence the studios. So when will they drop? And to what? Probably safe to assume we will see $150 for HD-DVD and $299 for Blu-Ray black friday deals - with normal price in the $199/$349 range for the winter. But still... I'm guessing not mass purchasing or mass returns (Wife or parents bought Blu-Ray but you wanted HD-DVD or reverse). And besides - who buys a new player without new movies? So when they go to try to match player=titles and find confusion they'll just buy something else.

So... again, in my opinion this winter will NOT decide anything. Maybe Christmas 2008 will. But every month that passes Blu-Ray will erode the price differential. There just isn't enough room anymore. Six months ago the differential was generally about $400 - ($499 vs. $899). Now its $200 ($299 vs. $499). Every move HD-DVD makes, Blu-Ray can counter. And by this time next year - the differential will likely be insignificant ($50-$75).

So - again - I think Target is irrelevant. Blockbuster is marginal. Any shifting or restricting of distribution of players or movies doesn't matter. Its still too early. And by the time it does matter, the only difference will be titles. And Blu-Ray has that game won. HD-DVD has to win it now. But the market isn't ready for it and its biggest weakness (titles) is already starting to show.

Chris


----------



## machavez00

> Sony won't fold anytime soon. Disney won't fold anytime soon.


and Sony said they would never make a VHS machine


----------



## BudShark

Ummm... yeah but you forgot to mention it took them 13 years. So I guess if you consider 2020 "soon"... sure your point makes sense.

Chris


----------



## Stuart Sweet

BudShark said:


> I don't think price is the #1 component here.
> 
> Chris


Chris, I respectfully disagree. If the price is low enough, a certain segment of the population will buy one because it's cheap enough to be disposable. Right now the large surge isn't coming because people are afraid to commit to a losing format. At a low enough price, I believe they will.

As far as number of titles, neither format has anywhere near the number of titles to guarantee success, and the gap between them (given the low number of titles) is statistically irrelevant.


----------



## Cholly

I wonder how low the prices will really go. I'm personally format neutral, even though I have a Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player. FWIW, the picture quality of HD DVD's on this unit as seen on my 55 inch Sony RP LCD TV is outstanding. If I were to have any complaints, it would be about Dolby Digital Plus being converted to DTS for my Yamaha surround receiver. 
I'd like to see an objective comparison of the two formats -- one which shows the strengths and weeknesses, the pros and cons of the two in a way that prospective buyers can understand.
Granted, the fact that Sony has Disney and Fox distributing exclusively on Blu-ray, and Target and BJ's both selling only Blu-Ray players bodes well for that format and ill for HD DVD. Further, when you look at a list of the members of the board of Blu-ray Disc Association, it is formidable:

Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures
Warner Bros. Entertainment

The HD DVD promotion group has many members who also support Blu-ray. Member list can be found at http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/about/member.html

Is this a Betamax vs. VHS battle? Possibly so. Interestingly, the DVD Forum supports HD DVD exclusively. Most major movie studios support both formats, hedging their bets, but also giving Blu-ray a decided advantage when it comes to the number of titles available.


----------



## BudShark

lamontcranston said:


> Chris, I respectfully disagree. If the price is low enough, a certain segment of the population will buy one because it's cheap enough to be disposable. Right now the large surge isn't coming because people are afraid to commit to a losing format. At a low enough price, I believe they will.
> 
> As far as number of titles, neither format has anywhere near the number of titles to guarantee success, and the gap between them (given the low number of titles) is statistically irrelevant.


I think the market has changed. How many people who have HDTVs (again we are talking a smaller than "everyone" market here) bought the cheapest thing out there? Look at Plasma, LCD, etc. They are neither the highest quality nor the lowest price. They are however the "coolest". I think the HD market has shown that splash and flash appeals to this segment more than cash (sorry for the bad rhyme!  )

So then what will draw people to a format in large numbers? I think a consensus winner (which is more marketing than anything), availability, and titles. This is much different than VHS - and its a mistake to compare them. We are talking about a mature market (home movies) with a stable platform (DVD) and a desire to move to the next technology. To me, it is all about titles and availability.

My personal guess is the $$$ difference will be small enough its irrelevant by mid-2008. Studios will not shift within the next 12 months, giving Blu-Ray a commanding new title availability (not transferred old titles, but new titles). And Blu-Ray will eventually be the winner with HD-DVD fading until the point that dual format players are cheap enough that HD-DVD compatibility is included bringing the HD-DVD holdouts and the small studios into the fold (because of the cheaper HD-DVD manufacturing cost).

But I'm as prophetic as my dog - so its just as likely that Sony will announce tomorrow they are making HD-DVD players and publishing HD-DVD titles!

Chris


----------



## Drew2k

As pointed out, there currently is no clear-cut winner in terms of unit sales of either players or movie titles, and each faction has lined up a number of movie studios exclusive to their format. 

However if the HD-DVD player prices start to drop and HD-DVD players make their ways into "average" home theaters at a faster rate than Blu-Ray players, how long before the Blu-Ray studios start to notice they are missing out on selling their titles because they are exclusive to Blu-Ray? How long before they start to make HD-DVD titles because they want their product to reach the consumers who are NOT buying their Blu-Ray titles?

I could ask the same if the situation was reversed and suddenly the price of Blu-Ray players dropped.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

BudShark said:


> My personal guess is the $$$ difference will be small enough its irrelevant by mid-2008. Studios will not shift within the next 12 months, giving Blu-Ray a commanding new title availability (not transferred old titles, but new titles). And Blu-Ray will eventually be the winner with HD-DVD fading until the point that dual format players are cheap enough that HD-DVD compatibility is included bringing the HD-DVD holdouts and the small studios into the fold (because of the cheaper HD-DVD manufacturing cost).
> 
> But I'm as prophetic as my dog - so its just as likely that Sony will announce tomorrow they are making HD-DVD players and publishing HD-DVD titles!
> 
> Chris


I hope you're wrong. I don't care what format wins but I'm very tire of there being no clear winner. I hope one format breaks out and the other breaks down. I think a draw is the worst possible scenario... I think the market is too small at the moment to support as much fragmentation as there is right now.


----------



## machavez00

from another thread


machavez00 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hd-dvd#Corporate_and_industry_support
> 
> In terms of major studios in North America, HD DVD is currently exclusively backed by Universal Studios (including subsidiaries Rogue Pictures, Focus Features and Polygram Filmed Entertainment), The Weinstein Company/Dimension Films (through Genius Products), and First Look Studios. The format is non-exclusively backed by Paramount Pictures, DreamWorks, Warner Bros. Pictures (it should be noted that a number of Warner's titles-Batman Begins, V for Vendetta, The Perfect Storm, Troy, Poseidon, Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, The Matrix Trilogy-are HD DVD exclusive at the present), Warner Music Group, New Line Cinema, HBO, Studio Canal, and Image Entertainment (including the Discovery Channel),[34] Magnolia Pictures,[35] Brentwood Home Video, Ryko, Koch/Goldhil Entertainment.[36]* HD DVD does have more studio support worldwide, especially in Europe.* HD DVD is currently exclusively backed by several adult-movie/pornography studios/publishers, including Wicked Pictures, Pink Visual, Bang Bros, Digital Playground Inc. and ClubJenna Inc. (which on 22 June 2006 was acquired by Playboy Enterprises), and HD DVD is also non-exclusively backed by Vivid Entertainment.
> 
> Sources claim history as a reference, that the pornography industry may have a big influence in the HD DVD versus Blu-ray format war, at least when it comes to home rental and retail purchases or pressed movies as it generates multi-billion annual revenue worldwide, (with US$57 billion in annual revenue worldwide reported in May, 2006).[37] Although this was a major factor during the VHS/Betamax war, due to the fact of consumers previously not having any means of home viewing, it remains to be seen whether the current format war will be affected similarly.[38]


I have read that HD-DVD sales are much higher that Bluray in Europe


----------



## jpl

Don't know if anyone's posted this one yet, but I found it interesting:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6754683-1.html?tag=nl.e497

I've also gotta disagree that cost won't be a major consideration in determining who wins the war. I've been looking to upgrade our DVD player, and I've been weighing both formats, and I have to say, that Toshiba A2 is looking mighty appealing - especially for the price ($239 at Circuit City).

I do agree that combo units will eventually be the silver bullet... eventually. The one difference between this war and the VHS/beta war is the fact that both of these formats use the same medium. But the price for those units right now is just in the stratosphere. That price advantage that HD DVD has is not to be glossed over - many people make these decisions mostly based on price. For example, at $250, I can convince my wife that we need to go HD... but I can't make the same argument (as effectively) with a $600 BluRay player. Will that be enough to bring about a victor? Hardly, but it's a very real consideration.


----------



## eahmjh

We just received the Panasonic Bluray player @ CC and in the box are 5 discs included.
The other BR players are offering a 5 discs rebate coupon. 
Blockbuster is only offer BR rental movies.

Bluray might have a chance of winning but the race aint over yet.

Samsung has a Bluray HD combo unit, so no matter which one wins you win as a comsumer.


----------



## allargon

eahmjh said:


> We just received the Panasonic Bluray player @ CC and in the box are 5 discs included.
> The other BR players are offering a 5 discs rebate coupon.
> Blockbuster is only offer BR rental movies.
> 
> Bluray might have a chance of winning but the race aint over yet.
> 
> Samsung has a Bluray HD combo unit, so no matter which one wins you win as a comsumer.


Blockbuster is offering only BR's at certain brick and mortar stores. They still rent HD-DVD'S online. Plus, they only rent regular DVD's at most of their stores.

It's cheaper to buy two standalone players than to buy a combo unit from Sansung or LG. 

Bluray has had the press momentum lately plus they have some strong backers. Fox/MGM are in the Blu-ray camp. However, they haven't released movies in HD a long, long while. There is a replication capacity shortage in the Blu-ray world. This is why there is very little adult content on Blu-ray. (It's not the 80's, but this still matters.) Bluray doesn't even have finalized specs, but that doesn't matter in the war of perception. A lot of the companies in the Bluray group are those that have beaten Sony in previous format wars. As a result, they may be coaching Sony to prevent them from making the same mistakes.

HD-DVD has been sloppy lately. Toshiba's trying its little heart out. Universal has hardly released any good exclusives on HD-DVD. Warner and Paramount are format neutral so they don't help. The adult film industry has started cranking out quite a few titles on HD-DVD. Many people think Toshiba's HD-DVD are near HD or upconverters not full HD. (Honestly, this is a problem with all the optical HD players.)

Short of Universal going neutral (I see Lionsgate going neutral before anyone else), this will continue for another 3 years. The high-def optical market is tiny (a few million per year?) compared to the standard def DVD market.

Joe Sixpack still thinks progressive scan standard DVD on his 37" 720P Vizio LCD *is* high definition! :nono2:

(Note: I'm format neutral, but I bought a Toshiba A20 first since it was cheaper and it would play all the high def pr0n!)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Engadget just reported that Target will be carrying HD-DVD after all...

I guess the wars continue.


----------



## Nick

lamontcranston said:


> Engadget just reported that Target will be carrying HD-DVD after all...
> 
> I guess the wars continue.


Link, please.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Your wish is my command, sir

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/28/false-alarm-targets-not-giving-up-on-hd-dvd/


----------



## Nick

Thanks a bunch, Shadow. That's certainly better news for HD DVD supporters


----------



## wakajawaka

Has anyone considered that the longer the format war continues the more likely both formats will die? 

I won't touch either format until there is only one on the market.


----------



## BudShark

lamontcranston said:


> Your wish is my command, sir
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/28/false-alarm-targets-not-giving-up-on-hd-dvd/


Interesting spin on all of this.

HD-DVD spin: Target is not going exclusively Blu-Ray. They will not be pulling any HD-DVD product from their shevles.

Blu-Ray spin: Target will be exclusively selling Blu-Ray next generation players.

Reality "spin": To date Target has not sold ANY next generation players in their store. They will be selling Blu-Ray players in their store now. No specific announcement regarding HD-DVD players being added, or continuing to be absent.

I'm still sticking with my stance. Numbers are too small to declare a winner. By the time people embrace the technology the price difference will be negligible and titles will be all that matters - hence Blu-Ray.

Of course, to waka's point (sorry) both formats will live. Because by the time the cost of the players is low enough to spur general interest - the cost of the dual formats will be low enough that they will become the norm and both media will live.

Chris


----------



## Tom Robertson

wakajawaka said:


> Has anyone considered that the longer the format war continues the more likely both formats will die?
> 
> I won't touch either format until there is only one on the market.


It seems to me there is enough need for an HD video technology that I can't see them both dying. Stall or stagnate? Perhaps. But there will be one winner (ok, both may suffer short-term loses until the winner emerges).

And I too am waiting. Until then I'm not only buying zero HD DVDs but fewer to next to none regular DVDs. So they all lose right now.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Amon37

wakajawaka said:


> I won't touch either format until there is only one on the market.


Well my video gaming system(PS3) came with a BD player built in so I'm enjoying the movies now. If Blu-ray dies then I will still have a collection of great HD movies and my player is not obsolete.


----------



## wakajawaka

Tom Robertson said:


> It seems to me there is enough need for an HD video technology that I can't see them both dying. Stall or stagnate? Perhaps. But there will be one winner (ok, both may suffer short-term loses until the winner emerges).
> 
> And I too am waiting. Until then I'm not only buying zero HD DVDs but fewer to next to none regular DVDs. So they all lose right now.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Good point, everyone loses in the short run, even regular DVD.


----------



## Drew2k

BudShark said:


> I'm still sticking with my stance. Numbers are too small to declare a winner. By the time people embrace the technology the price difference will be negligible and titles will be all that matters - hence Blu-Ray.


Do you honestly think the studios currently exclusively offering Blu-Ray titles will NEVER start offering those titles in HD-DVD format? If you believe people will embrace the titles when prices of the players drop, why wouldn't the exclusive studios want to increase their sales by selling content on the alternate format as well?


----------



## ibglowin

I don't see Disney/Pixar/Sony EVER producing anything on HD-DVD. Sorry. No one wants a format war to go on any longer than it has to not even the studios. They chose the format they thought was best for the consumer and the studios.



Drew2k said:


> Do you honestly think the studios currently exclusively offering Blu-Ray titles will NEVER start offering those titles in HD-DVD format? If you believe people will embrace the titles when prices of the players drop, why wouldn't the exclusive studios want to increase their sales by selling content on the alternate format as well?


----------



## AlbertZeroK

ibglowin said:


> I don't see Disney/Pixar/Sony EVER producing anything on HD-DVD. Sorry. No one wants a format war to go on any longer than it has to not even the studios. They chose the format they thought was best for the consumer and the studios.


I'm sure that's what they said about BETA MAX. Unfortunately, if Blu-ray looses, they will have no choice.


----------



## djlong

The only HD-DVD-only studio is Universal. ALL the others are either both or Blu-Ray only. The death knell for HD-DVD would be if Universal went "both ways".


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Then I say, go both ways Universal! Whatever it takes to end the format war. Enough is enough!


----------



## jutley

ibglowin said:


> I don't see Disney/Pixar/Sony EVER producing anything on HD-DVD. Sorry. No one wants a format war to go on any longer than it has to not even the studios. They chose the format they thought was best for the consumer and the studios.


Personally, I don't think they worry about the consumer much. It's always about what's best for them although they slant it so that it sounds like they only have the consumer's best interest in mind, IMHO. It's always about what will make them the most money.


----------



## BudShark

Never say never... I know that.
But I think the 2 that matter in the next 12-18 months won't (Sony and Disney). And I figure within 12-18 months we are talking about both players being less than $200.

Chris


----------



## Cholly

Drew2k said:


> Do you honestly think the studios currently exclusively offering Blu-Ray titles will NEVER start offering those titles in HD-DVD format? If you believe people will embrace the titles when prices of the players drop, why wouldn't the exclusive studios want to increase their sales by selling content on the alternate format as well?


1. Sony isn't about to go with HD DVD. They lost a few wars in the past and are determined to win this one.
2. Disney, Fox, LionsGate and MGM are all paranoid about copy protection (The one used by HD DVD has already been cracked), and will stick with who they think will win the wars.

Although I own an HD DVD player (Toshiba HD-A2), I'm inclined to believe that Blu-ray Disc will be the winner in the wars. More hardware manufacturers support the format, as do all major studios except Universal.

Toshiba may well have shot themselves in the foot by cutting hardware prices so severely. No other hardware manufacturer other than Thomson/RCA is making a standalone HD DVD player, and at Toshiba's price level, no one is going to jump in with one.


----------



## ibglowin

Its a little long but sums it up nicely and in an informed unbiased way.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/soapbox/soap060107.html


----------



## Chris Blount

ibglowin said:


> Its a little long but sums it up nicely and in an informed unbiased way.
> 
> http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/soapbox/soap060107.html


Trust me. It's biased. Bill Hunt has a long history of being in bed with Blu-Ray.


----------



## BudShark

Chris - I think most people who are writing editorials are biased.

The problem is whether or not his facts or statements are wrong. If something is wrong in that logic I'd love to hear it - much as the writer did for the article he is arguing against. But just saying someone is biased doesn't mean their logic or arguments are wrong or should be dismissed.

Chris


----------



## Chris Blount

BudShark said:


> Chris - I think most people who are writing editorials are biased.
> 
> The problem is whether or not his facts or statements are wrong. If something is wrong in that logic I'd love to hear it - much as the writer did for the article he is arguing against. But just saying someone is biased doesn't mean their logic or arguments are wrong or should be dismissed.
> 
> Chris


I didn't say anything about dismissing his opinions. Some points he makes are valid, but I am leery about what Bill says these days. Once he took the Blu-Ray stance, his credibility (at least for me) moved down a few notches mainly because his neutrality is now non-existent.

Like on any other subject, editorial comment should be taken with the source in mind.


----------



## machavez00

full article at:http://news.digitaltrends.com/news/s...hd_dvd_players
Toshiba Announces 3rd-Gen HD DVD Players

Monday, August 6th 2007 @ 10:30 AM PDT

By Geoff Duncan
Staff Writer, Digital Trends News
Add to your Del.icio.us account Del.icio.us

Toshiba has announced its third generation of HD DVD players, and puts pressure on the Blu-ray camp by starting prices at $299.99.

Electronics maker Toshiba is ratcheting up competition with the Blu-ray high-definition video camp again, announcing its third generation of its HD-A HD DVD players for the U.S. market. The three new units are timed to hit retailers just as the end-of-year holiday buying season ramps up, and all three units will be priced under under $500, and with low-end pricing starting at just $299.99.

Keeping up with Toshiba's non-stop claims that the HD DVD format is dominating the high-definition market, the VP of Marketing for Toshiba's Digital A/V Group, Jodi Sally, stated: "With a majority market share in unit sales of next generation DVD players, consumers are speaking loud and clear, and they are adopting HD DVD as their HD movie format of choice. Because of the proven manufacturing efficiencies of the HD DVD format, Toshiba can bring this level of innovation in technology to a new generation of players with cutting-edge functionality at affordable prices."
__________________


----------



## Christopher Gould

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

thoughts on Universal


----------



## Cholly

Christopher Gould said:


> http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
> 
> thoughts on Universal


My two cents worth -- Bill Hunt may be right in saying that Blu-ray Disc will eventually win the war, but he doesn't even bother to investigate whether studios had financial incentive to support that format. It certainly helps that Sony, major promoter of Blu-ray Disc, is also the owner of Sony Pictures. :grin:


----------



## DBS Commando

Time article on format war:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1651857,00.html

Here's a snippet:



> In the United States, standalone HD DVD players have 61 percent market share, while Blu-ray players have 36 percent share and the few dual-format players have a 3 percent share, according to market research company The NPD Group Inc. But Blu-ray, backed by Sony and a majority of Hollywood studios, got a big boost when Sony introduced its PlayStation 3 game console, which comes standard with a Blu-ray drive. Counting those machines, there are more Blu-ray players out there.


----------



## machavez00

If this comes true, Samsung better have it's duo player priced so it won't be cheepar to buy one of each!


> Chinese-made HD DVD players selling for $199 are expected to hit store shelves by December, while Sony is widely expected to cut the cost of its Blu-ray machine to as low as $299 by year's end. "When that occurs, the studios and Sony are going to pull out the big guns," said Phillip Swann, president of the technology-oriented Web site TVpredictions.com. "They are going to release more titles, big titles, and really go for the kill this holiday season."


----------



## DBS Commando

Question - 

I've been researching the old VHS-Betamax wars and appearntly betamax was superior to VHS in many ways. However, since VHS allowed so many other companies to produce their players, they were able to top sony who didn't outsource their players at all.

Is sony making the same mistake right now?


----------



## Cholly

DBS Commando said:


> Question -
> 
> I've been researching the old VHS-Betamax wars and appearntly betamax was superior to VHS in many ways. However, since VHS allowed so many other companies to produce their players, they were able to top sony who didn't outsource their players at all.
> 
> Is sony making the same mistake right now?


Not really correct. Sony had many manufacturers in their camp. What did Betamax in was RCA's request for a four hour VHS capability. See the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betamax

Richard misses Betamax, don't you, Richard?


----------



## Christopher Gould

DBS Commando said:


> Question -
> 
> I've been researching the old VHS-Betamax wars and appearntly betamax was superior to VHS in many ways. However, since VHS allowed so many other companies to produce their players, they were able to top sony who didn't outsource their players at all.
> 
> Is sony making the same mistake right now?


not positive but i think there are more blue-ray builders than hd dvd.


----------



## Richard King

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/08/16/lg-drops-the-msrp-on-the-bh100-hd-dvd-blu-ray-combo-player/


> dropped the MSRP of its player to $999 from $1199


More.


----------



## machavez00

Not enough. Samsung's player is rumored to be around $550

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20070710231023.html

Samsung's Duo HD Universal Player to Cost €400.
Samsung's Blu-ray/HD DVD Player Gets the Price

Category: Multimedia

by Anton Shilov

[ 07/10/2007 | 11:11 PM ]

Samsung Electronics at IFA (Internationale Funhausstellung) conference in
Germany revealed that its first hybrid blue laser-based video player will be relatively affordable and will become available in the fourth quarter of the year.

Samsung's Duo HD BD-UP5000 will be initially available in Europe and will cost approximately *€400 ($550)*, which is considerably below the cost of LG's BH100 player that also can playback both Blu-ray and HD DVD movies, reports Digi-Times web-site. It is not exactly clear in which countries the novelty will be available and whether its launch will be supported by widespread availability of Blu-ray or HD DVD movies in Europe.


----------



## purtman

If I had the same response with Samsung's Blu-ray/HD player that I do with the DVD recorder from Samsung, I'd rather pay the extra $450 for LG. My R135 (don't anybody buy it) has issues with ports working, recording only certain DVDs (from the same manufacturer), and won't record now after only 10 months. It only took 16 calls to get a shipping label from them. I've been transferred to a mom and pop store in Texas that has nothing to do with Samsung and a fax machine, had several people hang up on, and had somebody quote me $30 the first time and $64 the next. It's been hideous to say the least and I'll never buy anything from them again.


----------



## Richard King

I suspect that when the Samsung reaches the market that LG will follow with another price drop or a new, cheaper model. Isn't competition great.


----------



## Marvin

machavez00 said:


> Not enough. Samsung's player is rumored to be around $550
> 
> http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20070710231023.html
> 
> Samsung's Duo HD Universal Player to Cost €400.
> Samsung's Blu-ray/HD DVD Player Gets the Price
> 
> Category: Multimedia
> 
> by Anton Shilov
> 
> [ 07/10/2007 | 11:11 PM ]
> 
> Samsung Electronics at IFA (Internationale Funhausstellung) conference in
> Germany revealed that its first hybrid blue laser-based video player will be relatively affordable and will become available in the fourth quarter of the year.
> 
> Samsung's Duo HD BD-UP5000 will be initially available in Europe and will cost approximately *€400 ($550)*, which is considerably below the cost of LG's BH100 player that also can playback both Blu-ray and HD DVD movies, reports Digi-Times web-site. It is not exactly clear in which countries the novelty will be available and whether its launch will be supported by widespread availability of Blu-ray or HD DVD movies in Europe.


Despite what the European price is, the US price is supposedly $1049.

If I wanted a combo player, Id pay the extra $50 to get full HD-DVD support from this Samsung model which the LG combo player doesn't offer.


----------



## Steve Mehs

No thanks. I'll take a Sony Blu-Ray Disc player, with no HD DVD support, I don't feel like paying a premium for a player that will play a format that won't be around in a few years.


----------



## Christopher Gould

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=112

disney's jumping in now.


----------



## Cholly

Thanks, but I'd go for the Sony as well (or perhaps a PS/3) -- adding it to my Toshiba HD-A2. I paid less than $299 for the Tosh and got 5 free movies. I'm willing to sacrifice that much if the HD DVD format disappears


----------



## Nick

This should be posted in the HD DVD vs Blu-Ray Thread, not HD Programming.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=86101


----------



## allargon

Steve Mehs said:


> No thanks. I'll take a Sony Blu-Ray Disc player, with no HD DVD support, I don't feel like paying a premium for a player that will play a format that won't be around in a few years.


I hope you don't mean that $400 monstrocity at Wal-Mart that will be obsolete after Oct. when profile 1.1 becomes mandated.


----------



## Steve Mehs

Not sure what that is, but this is what I have my eye on

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs...10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665088000


----------



## DBS Commando

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/ap_on_hi_te/dueling_dvd_formats_2

+2 for HD-DVD


----------



## Cholly

DBS Commando said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/ap_on_hi_te/dueling_dvd_formats_2
> 
> +2 for HD-DVD


A more complete article on Paramount and Dreamworks going HD DVD exclusively:
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2007/08/paramount_and_d.php


----------



## DBS Commando

Does anyone have a list of HD-DVD exclusive studios, Blu-Ray exclusives, and netrual studios? I'd be interested to see how it plays out now.


----------



## Chris Blount

DBS Commando said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/ap_on_hi_te/dueling_dvd_formats_2
> 
> +2 for HD-DVD


Very very interesting news and big plus for HD-DVD. Sony's job of fighting HD-DVD just got a lot harder.


----------



## djlong

That just boggles the mind.. I *never* would have expected this.

In other words, Paramount (Dreamworks is a Paramount subsidiary) is saying "we are abandoning all the money we invested in Blu-Ray and are ignoring the huge and increasing lead that Blu-Ray has developed as far as the number of players are concerned and will be going with HD-DVD - and, while we're at it, we'll do our level best to keep this format war going and we don't give a damn what the consumer thinks".

Something seems awfully fishy about this. Universal was the *only* HD-exclusive studio. This only drags the fight out longer.


----------



## DBS Commando

Chris Blount said:


> Very very interesting news and big plus for HD-DVD. Sony's job of fighting HD-DVD just got a lot harder.


Indeed, it also makes that $240 HD-DVD player on Amazon.com look VERY appealing.


----------



## Sirshagg

djlong said:


> That just boggles the mind.. I *never* would have expected this.


+1


----------



## DBS Commando

DBS Commando said:


> Does anyone have a list of HD-DVD exclusive studios, Blu-Ray exclusives, and netrual studios? I'd be interested to see how it plays out now.


Answered my own question:

*Blu-Ray only:*
_Sony Pictures_
_20th Century Fox_
_MGM_
_Disney_

*HD-DVD only:*
_Paramount (including all studios such as Nick, MTV, etc.)_
_Dreamworks_
_Universal Studios_

*Neutral:*
_Warner Bros. (includes New Line Cinema)_

This article states that Paramount made this move because they felt Blu-Ray Discs and players were "not affordable for the average american family" and the lower prices of HD-DVD's and players "appeal to the family market"

This move may very well drag this fiasco into next year, I'm not sure if I or anybody else feel like waiting that long.


----------



## Sirshagg

DBS Commando said:


> This article states that Paramount made this move because they felt Blu-Ray Discs and players were "not affordable for the average american family" and the lower prices of HD-DVD's and players "appeal to the family market"


What a load of BS!


----------



## Sirshagg

I for one will not purchase either format till the other is dead and buried.


----------



## BudShark

I was 90% leaning toward buying Blu-Ray before the end of summer. I am now 100% NOT buying ANYTHING and will probably cease to watch any new information.

I will be replacing my home theater system with an all-in-one (on this matter WAF is more important than anything) and when I do that I will replace my 5 disc DVD with an upconverting HTS.

I will just go with VOD and DVDs for the foreseeable future. In my mind, Paramount just killed the next gen format. One month ago, when it looked like Universal might be swayed it was alive and well. But now, Toshiba/Universal/MSFT and whoever else participated in this effort (while a very BIG positive for HD-DVD) probably just burned themselves and everyone else.

Sorry for the rant - but I am done. I agree with everyone's assessment that this just prolonged the "war" - but I take it to the next step and will say they just guaranteed it will fail.

Chris


----------



## Chris Blount

Bill Hunt over at The Digital Bits has gone crazy. He officially announced his allegiance to Blu-Ray a little while ago but now he really has his panties in a bunch. It's really quite comical.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

I personally own both formats and plan to eventually purchase a dual format player. I can care less which one wins. Right now I'm enjoying the hell out of building a library of HD movies.


----------



## ibglowin

DBS Commando said:


> This article[/URL] states that Paramount made this move because they felt Blu-Ray Discs and players were "not affordable for the average american family" and the lower prices of HD-DVD's and players "appeal to the family market"
> 
> This move may very well drag this fiasco into next year, I'm not sure if I or anybody else feel like waiting that long.


I think that and the fact that Microsoft/Toshiba PAID them a reported $100 Million to go format exclusive had a wee bit to do with it as well..... :nono:

Guess I had better hold on to my Xbox 360 add on just a bit longer than I had expected.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

ibglowin said:


> I think that and the fact that Microsoft/Toshiba PAID them a reported $100 Million to go format exclusive had a wee bit to do with it as well..... :nono:


Well, it wasn't all cash, but rather "promotional considerations" which could mean something as simple as a free trailer on xbox live or something like that or the fact that their HD DVD's are the ones they include in new promotions or that are played at trade shows.



Chris Blount said:


> Bill Hunt over at The Digital Bits has gone crazy. He officially announced his allegiance to Blu-Ray a little while ago but now he really has his panties in a bunch. It's really quite comical.
> 
> http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
> 
> I personally own both formats and plan to eventually purchase a dual format player. I can care less which one wins. Right now I'm enjoying the hell out of building a library of HD movies.


This guy is funny. He is obviously wrong if he thinks money has nothing to do with winning a format war. Money after all is the reason that most American's think they need an oil change every 3,000 miles! (Read your owner's manual - heck, I push 10k miles with synthetic oil in my Aerio)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ibglowin said:


> I think that and the fact that Microsoft/Toshiba PAID them a reported $100 Million to go format exclusive had a wee bit to do with it as well..... :nono:
> 
> Guess I had better hold on to my Xbox 360 add on just a bit longer than I had expected.


And that fact that the main player in Blu-Ray... owns their production studio... doesn't play into it either?


----------



## DCSholtis

Chris Blount said:


> Bill Hunt over at The Digital Bits has gone crazy. He officially announced his allegiance to Blu-Ray a little while ago but now he really has his panties in a bunch. It's really quite comical.
> 
> http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
> 
> I personally own both formats and plan to eventually purchase a dual format player. I can care less which one wins. Right now I'm enjoying the hell out of building a library of HD movies.


Well I guess that means I'll probably be adding an HD-DVD player to go with my Sony Blu-Ray player. No intention on purchasing a dual format player. Too expensive at this point plus I just got the Blu-Ray 2 months ago. What I also find interesting is that the Paramount announcement does NOT include any movies directed by Steven Spielburg. Those movies will continue to be released in both formats.


----------



## DCSholtis

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...Commitment,_Announce_Future_Release_Plans/875



> After months of silence, Fox Home Entertainment is planning to issue an announcement later today renewing its support for the Blu-ray format, and outlining the studio's upcoming release plans.
> The move comes after this morning's shocking revelation that Paramount and DreamWorks have switched allegiances exclusively to rival HD DVD, news which has left those on all sides of the format war blind-sided.
> 
> We've just received official confirmation from Fox today that in response to Paramount's announcement, they are currently fast-tracking a press release reiterating their exclusive support for Blu-ray, as well as providing long-awaited details on their future release plans.


----------



## Sirshagg

ibglowin said:


> I think that and the fact that Microsoft/Toshiba PAID them a reported $100 Million to go format exclusive had a wee bit to do with it as well..... :nono:


Now that makes MUCH more sense.


----------



## djlong

Sirshagg said:


> I for one will not purchase either format till the other is dead and buried.


I was leaning towards Blu-Ray but, with that announement, I'm right with you.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Sirshagg said:


> Now that makes MUCH more sense.


Again...

What is the difference between "those" two paying Paramount....

And Sony... "paying" (be it soft/line item money), to Sony/Columbia Pictures?
And the Sony Production facilities....

When you look at it... Sony "owns" and controls three major portions of the BluRay initative...

They make one of the cheapest players out there (the PS3)... so they want the format to win... to push more of their PS3's as well as BluRay

They own one of the MAJOR studios that are producing some of the blockbuster titles we want on "HD" optical media... And they want that business....

They also own the production facilities for BluRay (IIRC)......

So while Microsoft's angle is probably to help the XBOX360, and hurt one of it's #1 competitors (Sony)...

Toshiba... is just looking to get a return on their investiment on the technology to this point.

There is a LOT of money involved on both sides, so let's no go paint the "devil red"... just because MS/Toshiba cut a check and is there clear as day, instead of "buried" in "technicalities" on Sony's side of things.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I personally... prefer the HD-DVD...
One major reason for it.... I love the Hybrid Disks... granted they are bit more expensive... but I really do get two for 1 out of the deal.

I just purchase 300 last week... watched it in HD... but then I was able to loan it to my neighboor, and he could watch it on his standard def... and my Mom is next in line...

And I can watch it in the PC... if I so desired.


----------



## DBS Commando

DCSholtis said:


> http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...Commitment,_Announce_Future_Release_Plans/875


Makes things worse for us but Paramount/Dreamworks truely blew it out of the water.

Makes you wonder if they are trying to kill the Hi-Def movie market...


----------



## ShawnL25

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Fox to release 29 titles by end of 07

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...Hard,_Extensive_Catalog_Coming_to_Blu-ray/876


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Earl Bonovich said:


> I personally... prefer the HD-DVD...
> One major reason for it.... I love the Hybrid Disks... granted they are bit more expensive... but I really do get two for 1 out of the deal.
> 
> I just purchase 300 last week... watched it in HD... but then I was able to loan it to my neighboor, and he could watch it on his standard def... and my Mom is next in line...
> 
> And I can watch it in the PC... if I so desired.


I also prefer HD-DVD for the same reason and that is why I think at the end of the war between the two HD-DVD will win.


----------



## DBS Commando

BMoreRavens said:


> I also prefer HD-DVD for the same reason and that is why I think at the end of the war between the two HD-DVD will win.


I think Sony is way to determined to concede to HD-DVD...if they are to lose, then they will die a very sloooow and painful death. Its going to be hard for MS/Toshiba to take them down.


----------



## ShawnL25

The thing I hate most about this is Blu ray was so close, I really don't care who wins, I think the bluray tech is better but the name HD DVD is clearer and creates less market confusion and the hybrids were neat but WB is doing away with them. Had universal switched this thing was over, now we have to wait on two studio's. I don't see Disney switching any time soon as they are too heavily invested in the format, Fox has been open that they have no intentions on supporting a format that they deem unsecure hence them choosing bluray initially and then not releasing new titles until the dmr issues were corrected. And Sony will not give up the fight until it is long over with. Really all our next gen fates line in Warner’s hands and think they will be content to release there films at a 2-1 advantage in whoever’s favor because in the end their sales total says 3.


----------



## machavez00

makes that $550 Samsung Duo look *real* good about now


----------



## DCSholtis

I don't see Apple switching their allegiance either very soon as they too have heavily invested in Blu-Ray.


----------



## DCSholtis

machavez00 said:


> makes that $550 Samsung Duo look *real* good about now


I was actually thinking about that but I have a few ports left in my HDMI switcher. So that Toshiba HD-DVD player probably going to be mine by Christmas. Will look good atop my Sony BRP.


----------



## machavez00

DCSholtis said:


> I don't see Apple switching their allegiance either very soon as they too have heavily invested in Blu-Ray.


Apple has not offered BD in any of their computers yet. I bought the new 20" 2.4Ghz Dual Core iMac and BD was not even an add on option. Toshiba and I believe HP are the only ones offering HD drive in their computers, HD-DVD of course.

Side question: do the players scale 1080i or 1080p to 720p, and is the A20 better at it than the A2? I have a 720p set so 1080p is not needed until it dies and I upgrade to a 1080p set.


----------



## DCSholtis

machavez00 said:


> Apple has not offered BD in any of their computers yet. I bought the new 20" 2.4Ghz Dual Core iMac and BD was not even an add on option. Toshiba and I believe HP are the only ones offering HD drive in their computers, HD-DVD of course.
> 
> Side question: do the players scale 1080i or 1080p to 720p, and is the A20 better at it than the A2? I have a 720p set so 1080p is not needed until it dies and I upgrade to a 1080p set.


Right now I have the latest Sony Blu-Ray model my TV is 720p as well and it upscales pretty good. No complaints. I don't have a HD-DVD machine as yet. Im also surprised that Apple hasn't yet offered a BD in any of their latest computer models yet. After all they are one of the backers so I would have thought by now they would have.


----------



## Steve Mehs

> Toshiba and I believe HP are the only ones offering HD drive in their computers, HD-DVD of course.


I'll be getting a new PC at the end of the year nad just looked this up the other day. HP offers a Blu-Ray Disc Writer/HD DVD-ROM combo drive as a $590 add on option on their higher end customizable machines.


----------



## djlong

There's speculation that Microsoft offered all this money specifically to keep the format war going so that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will end up like SACD allowing HD downloads (like they offer on Xbox Live) to take over and become the dominant technology.


----------



## machavez00

Steve Mehs said:


> I'll be getting a new PC at the end of the year nad just looked this up the other day. HP offers a Blu-Ray Disc Writer/HD DVD-ROM combo drive as a $590 add on option on their higher end customizable machines.


HP offers HD-DVD ROM in notebooks and a combo BD burner/HD DVD ROM in one desktop and a HD DVD ROM in another, weird.


----------



## Nick

In case you haven't been paying attention, advancement in technologies is increasing at
a geometric rate.

While HD DVD and BD are duking it out for supremacy, chances are, deep in a secure
underground lab somewhere in the world, a _newer, better_, higher-capacity hi-res DVD is
on the drawing boards. While I can neither confirm nor deny this report, please consider
this information as highly confidential.


----------



## machavez00

djlong said:


> There's speculation that Microsoft offered all this money specifically to keep the format war going so that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will end up like SACD allowing HD downloads (like they offer on Xbox Live) to take over and become the dominant technology.


That was my third option in my "Is BD/HD DVD PQ that much better that DBS/OTA HD? poll.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93861 
Poll Options
Is BD/HD DVD PQ that much better that DBS/OTA HD?
Yes, Much better PQ that DBS/OTA HD
No, same PQ as DBS/OTA HD
No, same PQ and VOD will kill off both formats


----------



## machavez00

From the Sony boardroom: "性交のパラマウント!"


----------



## DBS Commando

machavez00 said:


> From the Sony boardroom: "性交のパラマウント!"


:lol:


----------



## DBS Commando

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/21/michael-bay-responds-to-paramounts-abandonment-of-blu-ray-no-t/

Appearantly, Michael Bay isn't too happy with Paramount either.


----------



## machavez00

OK, I have an interesting question. The BD and HD DVD camps are offering 5 free movies as an incentive to buy their hardware. With Samsungs's Duo player due out in about a month, will buyers be getting ten movies?


----------



## BudShark

Yes - dual format players get 10 DVDs (assuming the promotions are still going)

Chris


----------



## machavez00

I'm there! I have a 46" Sammy that will pair up nicely


----------



## Nick

*And the format war rages on... *

SkyReport:


> Monday Paramount and DreamWorks Animation both declared exclusive support for the HD DVD disc format, announcing that titles distributed by the companies' various subsidiaries (including Nickelodeon Movies and MTV Films) will be released exclusively on HD DVD going forward.
> 
> "We decided to release ... DreamWorks Animation titles exclusively on HD DVD because we believe it is the best format to bring high quality home entertainment to a key segment of our audience -- families," said DreamWorks Animation CEO Jeffrey Katzenberg. "We believe the combination of this year's low-priced HD DVD players and the commitment to release a significant number of hit titles in the fall makes HD DVD the best way to view movies at home."
> 
> The exclusive program is set to begin with the release of "Blades of Glory," "Transformers" and "Shrek the Third" later this month.
> 
> According to studio execs, HD DVD's lower manufacturing costs and add-on technologies -- like interactivity and community features -- led to the decision.
> 
> "The combination of Paramount and DreamWorks Animation brings a critical mass of current box office hits to consumers with a line-up of live action and animated films that are perfect for HD DVD," said Paramount Pictures CEO Brad Grey. "Part of our vision is to aggressively extend our movies beyond the theater, and deliver the quality and features that appeal to our audience. I believe HD DVD is not only the affordable high quality choice for consumers, but also the smart choice for Paramount."
> 
> Does this mean the HD DVD vs. Blu-ray debate is finally over? Hardly, but things are certainly heating up.


www.SkyReport.com


----------



## djlong

Price my buttocks! It's bribery from MS/Toshiba and the deal last, evidently, for 18 months. I'm guessing Viacom saw that they could make more money from the bribe than in sales and, in 18 months, can go back to being 'dual format'.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Something interesting I found. HD DVD is region free and some movies not available in the US can be purchased overseas. Here's the Linky

BTW - Amazon now sells the Toshiba HD DVD Player for $238.88 with 5 free HD DVD's by mail in rebate. Which makes you wonder where the sub $300 Blu-Ray player is?


----------



## Richard King

After HD DVD Coup, Blu-ray Strikes Back
http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=73058&var=story#73058


> A day after the HD DVD format welcomed Paramount and DreamWorks into its exclusive fold, its rival Blu-ray Disc struck back, with its partners Twentieth Century Fox and MGM announcing a slate of 29 titles for the fall.


More...


----------



## machavez00

If they want to drive the nails in, Fox needs to release all six "Star Wars". As for me, I'm buying the $550 Samsung duo, and getting 10 free movies!


----------



## Cholly

While the rival camps battle, consumers by and large stay away, as confirmed by many comments on this thread. As I stated in a previous post, I currently own a Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player. When they become more affordable, I'll no doubt add a Blu-ray Disc player. Of course, that means I'll have to get an HDMI switcher, since my Sony 55" LCD RP TV only has one HDMI input. Set manufacturers are starting to wise up and are offering receivers with two or more HDMI inputs.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

machavez00 said:


> If they want to drive the nails in, Fox needs to release all six "Star Wars". As for me, I'm buying the $550 Samsung duo, and getting 10 free movies!


Where are you finding the $550 Samsung Duo at?


----------



## machavez00

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20070710231023.html

Samsung's Duo HD Universal Player to Cost €400.
Samsung's Blu-ray/HD DVD Player Gets the Price

Category: Multimedia

by Anton Shilov

[ 07/10/2007 | 11:11 PM ]

Samsung Electronics at IFA (Internationale Funhausstellung) conference in
Germany revealed that its first hybrid blue laser-based video player will be relatively affordable and will become available in the fourth quarter of the year.

Samsung's Duo HD BD-UP5000 will be initially available in Europe and will cost approximately €400 ($550), which is considerably below the cost of LG's BH100 player that also can playback both Blu-ray and HD DVD movies, reports Digi-Times web-site. It is not exactly clear in which countries the novelty will be available and whether its launch will be supported by widespread availability of Blu-ray or HD DVD movies in Europe.


----------



## DawgLink

One day the battle will end

I just hope soon


----------



## Cholly

Paramount's CTO explains why the studio has dumped Blu-Ray Disc for HD DVD:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136253/article.html?tk=nl_dnxnws


----------



## Stuart Sweet

DawgLink said:


> One day the battle will end
> 
> I just hope soon


Ya think? I've lost at least a hundred hairs waiting, and I'm running out!


----------



## AlbertZeroK

I wonder if the reason there are no cheap Blu-Ray players is to promote the sales of the PS3? Just curious, a PS3 is about the cost of a blu-ray player and is more functional - it's what I'd buy anyways.


----------



## ibglowin

The one and only reason we have cheap HD-DVD players is because Toshiba decided a "slash and burn" policy was what was needed to win the format war by quickly building a large HD-DVD player base. You ever wonder why no one else is making any HD-DVD players? Who would want to produce something that you would have to sell at a huge loss just to try and compete with/against Toshiba. I think only one other company is set to put out an HD-DVD player this fall besides Toshiba and its Onkyo who is trying to go after the high end audiophile with a $995 HD-DVD player!

The format war is causing Blu-Ray players to drop faster than what was expected at first. Without it we would still be paying $100 - $150 more than we are currently. Look for prices to drop probably another $50-$100 by the Xmas holiday rush.

Sony is going for a "1,2" punch with a huge onslaught of BD only releases just in time for the Holidays as well as cheaper priced units.

Its good for the consumer in some ways, bad in others...............



AlbertZeroK said:


> I wonder if the reason there are no cheap Blu-Ray players is to promote the sales of the PS3? Just curious, a PS3 is about the cost of a blu-ray player and is more functional - it's what I'd buy anyways.


----------



## djlong

It's all about the Benjamins. Up to $150M for an 18 month deal and Paramount "resuses to comment" about that.


----------



## Cholly

Who makes HD DVD players? Besides Toshiba, there's Sanyo, NEC and RCA, and at the high end, of course, there's Onkyo. As to pricing: there's no doubt that Toshiba is betting the store by aggressive pricing. Then, too, it's no doubt cheaper to produce an HD DVD player than a Blu-ray Disc player, technology-wise. 
Don't think for a moment that Sony isn't losing money on Blu-ray. They're spending big bucks, promoting their technology -- still smarting over Toshiba's win in the videotape format wars. While the PS/3, with built-in Blu-ray Disc player seems like a bargain, Sony loses a ton of money on each console sold, hoping to offset their losses through software sales, which have a higher profit margin. The same is true with Microsoft and the XBox 360.
Each format has a lot to offer from a consumer standpoint. Right now, HD DVD has the more mature technology. It will be a while until the new generation Blu-ray Disc players hit the market.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I was reading a few articles tonight... and the "outrage" that Paramount would do this "exclusive" with HD-DVD...

Where are the corresponding articles, on the "outrage" of Columbia/Sony Pictures? Aren't they pretty much exclusive Blu-Ray?

IMHO... neither side WANTS there to be a decision... they want the two formats for ever...

Why? Gives them a hook, to keep it more expensive... 
Look what happen when Divx went away... the prices of DVD's went down... as did the price of the players.... so less money going back to the companies...

Blades of Glory comes out next week... in all three formats..
I would love to get it in HD... but frankly.. .the thought of dropping $30 on it, instead of the $14.99 for the DVD... just isn't going to fly.

300 was still a hard buy at $35... and I had $20 in BB Rewards points, to help offset it....

The first format to offer a sub $200 player (not tied to a game system),
And get the cost of the Movie Sub $20... wins.


----------



## DBS Commando

Earl Bonovich said:


> I was reading a few articles tonight... and the "outrage" that Paramount would do this "exclusive" with HD-DVD...
> 
> Where are the corresponding articles, on the "outrage" of Columbia/Sony Pictures? Aren't they pretty much exclusive Blu-Ray?
> 
> IMHO... neither side WANTS there to be a decision... they want the two formats for ever...
> 
> Why? Gives them a hook, to keep it more expensive...
> Look what happen when Divx went away... the prices of DVD's went down... as did the price of the players.... so less money going back to the companies...
> 
> Blades of Glory comes out next week... in all three formats..
> I would love to get it in HD... but frankly.. .the thought of dropping $30 on it, instead of the $14.99 for the DVD... just isn't going to fly.
> 
> 300 was still a hard buy at $35... and I had $20 in BB Rewards points, to help offset it....
> 
> The first format to offer a sub $200 player (not tied to a game system),
> And get the cost of the Movie Sub $20... wins.


I think the outrage came from the fact that Blu-Ray was close to winning. They had a majority of the studios under their belt, had major retailers such as Blockbuster go Blu-Ray exclusive. Sales were pointing to a 2:1 ratio for Blu-Ray:HD-DVD. Then Paramount came in and blew the Studio balance out of proportion; now it's basically a 50-50 split with Warner Bros. being the only remaining major neutral studio.

Another thing that set everyone off was that MS paid Paramount to go HD-DVD only and you know how much everyone "_loves_" MS. It would also be kind of stupid to critizice Sony Studios for endorsing their own product.

Another problem I think we have is that a majority of the "fan boy" base supports Blu-Ray because technically it has a _slight_ technological advantage over HD-DVD (mainly the capacity which means jack **** to people who just want to watch a movie) The fan boy base controls the media which means they are constantly hunting for ways to down HD-DVD.

Personally, I'm pulling for HD-DVD because of these main reasons:

Cheaper Disc - $20-$25 average vs. $30+)
Cheaper Player - HD-DVD players at Amazon are sub $240 and falling, different story if you want 1080p though
Name makes more sense - What average uninformed person is going to know what a Blu-Ray is? I think Sony has gone 0 for 2 with their whole naming gig
Ability to have the SD and HD versions on the same disc - VERY handy for all those who have relatives that still have tube TV's and aren't planning on upgrading to hi-def anytime soon

Reasons why I haven't purchased HD-DVD already:

Lack of good movies - I've been searching the past several months for a plethora of good movies that are HD-DVD exclusives. Unfortunatly, that search has come up empty so far but that may change with Paramount in the picture. Another issue I have is that many of the movies that I like are made by Sony Studios/MGM/Fox
Both these formats may not exist this time in a few years
The upcoming dual format players may be the catalyst for this entire ordeal - have to wait and see

I agree with you with the pricing and I think that it will be instrumental to the studios on what people are more inclined to buy (ie. the cheaper product or the more expensive) I'm just hoping that all of this is going to happen SOON before the whole drive of the HD movie market collapses. It would be nice if Wal Mart came out and said they were going to go to an exclusive format but I have a feeling that they won't do that until the very end or MS pays them again.


----------



## DCSholtis

Earl Bonovich said:


> I was reading a few articles tonight... and the "outrage" that Paramount would do this "exclusive" with HD-DVD...
> 
> Where are the corresponding articles, on the "outrage" of Columbia/Sony Pictures? Aren't they pretty much exclusive Blu-Ray?
> 
> IMHO... neither side WANTS there to be a decision... they want the two formats for ever...
> 
> Why? Gives them a hook, to keep it more expensive...
> Look what happen when Divx went away... the prices of DVD's went down... as did the price of the players.... so less money going back to the companies...
> 
> Blades of Glory comes out next week... in all three formats..
> I would love to get it in HD... but frankly.. .the thought of dropping $30 on it, instead of the $14.99 for the DVD... just isn't going to fly.
> 
> 300 was still a hard buy at $35... and I had $20 in BB Rewards points, to help offset it....
> 
> The first format to offer a sub $200 player (not tied to a game system),
> And get the cost of the Movie Sub $20... wins.


Earl, 
Blades of Glory will no longer come out in Blu-Ray after this announcement. According to the Paramount statement the format change starts with Blades of Glory...I had to cancel my pre-order on Amazon after the announcement.


----------



## machavez00

Here it is, your sub $200 HD DVD player!
http://www.alcoelectronics.com/news-details.aspx?id=15









Venturer Electronics today announced the launch of its first HD DVD player for the North American market. Responding to strong consumer demand for high definition video playback devices, Venturer will introduce the SHD7000 that offers the superior HD movie experience as defined by the DVD Forum. Featuring 1080i video output and an HDMI connection, the SHD7000 is designed to be compatible with the vast majority of HDTVs already in North American consumers' homes. With Ethernet connectivity to the network , the SHD7000 also allows users to access bonus features from movie studio web servers and unlock special prerecorded content on some HD DVD discs. Dolby TrueHD rounds out the high definition experience by presenting the HD DVD disc soundtrack as it was meant to be heard, virtually equal to the studio master. In addition to its HD DVD playback capability, the SHD7000 will upconvert standard DVDs to near HD picture quality via its HDMI connection, allowing a consumer's existing library of DVDs to look better than ever. CD playback is also supported. The SHD7000 will be distributed in North America by Venturer Electronics of Markham, Ontario, and sold through national retailers with retail prices expected to be one of the lowest among entry-level HD DVD players. Venturer Electronics, headquartered in Markham, Ontario, offers a wide selection of value-priced, high quality consumer electronics products. Since 1988, Venturer has focused on making the latest technologies affordable to North American consumers.
More Information: [email protected]


----------



## DBS Commando

machavez00 said:


> Here it is, your sub $200 HD DVD player!
> http://www.alcoelectronics.com/news-details.aspx?id=15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Venturer Electronics today announced the launch of its first HD DVD player for the North American market. Responding to strong consumer demand for high definition video playback devices, Venturer will introduce the SHD7000 that offers the superior HD movie experience as defined by the DVD Forum. Featuring 1080i video output and an HDMI connection, the SHD7000 is designed to be compatible with the vast majority of HDTVs already in North American consumers' homes. With Ethernet connectivity to the network , the SHD7000 also allows users to access bonus features from movie studio web servers and unlock special prerecorded content on some HD DVD discs. Dolby TrueHD rounds out the high definition experience by presenting the HD DVD disc soundtrack as it was meant to be heard, virtually equal to the studio master. In addition to its HD DVD playback capability, the SHD7000 will upconvert standard DVDs to near HD picture quality via its HDMI connection, allowing a consumer's existing library of DVDs to look better than ever. CD playback is also supported. The SHD7000 will be distributed in North America by Venturer Electronics of Markham, Ontario, and sold through national retailers with retail prices expected to be one of the lowest among entry-level HD DVD players. Venturer Electronics, headquartered in Markham, Ontario, offers a wide selection of value-priced, high quality consumer electronics products. Since 1988, Venturer has focused on making the latest technologies affordable to North American consumers.
> More Information: [email protected]


Good news for HD-DVD, bad for Blu ray. Prices are going to be a big factor in this war.


----------



## Nick

*MS official says reports of payment untrue*

Washington, D.C. (August 29, 2007) -- Kevin Collins, who runs Microsoft's HD DVD
unit, is denying that his company paid Paramount to exclusively back HD DVD in the
high-def format war against Blu-ray.

Paramount and DreamWorks last week stunned the High-Definition industry by
announcing that they will back HD DVD exclusively. Paramount had previously
released films in both formats while DreamWorks had yet to pick a winner in the
battle.

The news led Blu-ray supporters to quickly charge that the studios had been paid
off by Microsoft and Toshiba, the leading companies behind HD DVD. ...

More @ TVPredictions.com


----------



## Cholly

The Venturer HD DVD player will in all probability be a sub $200 unit sold at Wal-Mart. Venturer in the past has been a low priced provider of consumer electronics to Wal-Mart.


----------



## Richard King

Amazon Offers HD DVD Eight-Pack


> Amazon.com is offering the biggest hi-def disc movie bundle yet, tossing in eight HD DVD movies with the purchase of one of three Toshiba HD DVD players. The deal adds three movies, directly from Amazon, to the five already offered by HD DVD's existing "Perfect Offer" promotion.


More.....


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Oh jeez...

another month goes by and we're still no closer to the end of the format war. Enough, people! Enough! I'll buy one or the other but pick one!


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Richard King said:


> Amazon Offers HD DVD Eight-Pack
> More.....


It's not on amazon...


----------



## Richard King

Sorry... Forgot to post my source. 
http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=73499&var=story#73499


----------



## B Newt

I was reading in a magazine that they are going to produce a DVD that has blueray on one side and HD dvd on the otherside. So it wont matter which player you own you still can watch a dvd in HD.


----------



## machavez00

Warner Bros. "Total HD" Disc. "Superman Returns" is one I believe


----------



## Richard King

This won't do any good unless the studio is contracted to both formats.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Richard King said:


> This won't do any good unless the studio is contracted to both formats.


And pays royalties for both formats, passing that cost onto the consumer.


----------



## Richard King

Blu-ray Counters HD DVD Offer on Amazon (sort of)
http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=73598&var=story#73598


----------



## Marriner

After reading all of the posts in this thread, a couple of things come to mind. Format wars of various kinds have been around for decades. I think that competition is a good thing. On this subject most of us need only look at the E* D* rivalary and their competition with Comcast et al. This healthy battle, both technical and commercial, give us more features, content, programming, etc. To say "i am not getting either one until the other is dead and gone" is the equivalent of getting your TV programming ONLY OTA.

Let the competition rage. Prices will go down. Technology will improve. and you the consumer will win.

Be Ye Patient


----------



## Sirshagg

Marriner said:


> After reading all of the posts in this thread, a couple of things come to mind. Format wars of various kinds have been around for decades. I think that competition is a good thing. On this subject most of us need only look at the E* D* rivalary and their competition with Comcast et al. This healthy battle, both technical and commercial, give us more features, content, programming, etc. To say "i am not getting either one until the other is dead and gone" is the equivalent of getting your TV programming ONLY OTA.
> 
> Let the competition rage. Prices will go down. Technology will improve. and you the consumer will win.
> 
> Be Ye Patient


It's NOTHING like the E* vs D* rivalry. I can get HBO, Showtime, USA, SciFi, etc on either of them. In the case of HG-DVD vs Blueray I generally can't get the same sontent on each as studios have taken sides. In the end I suppose I could buy both players and both types of media but at some point one or the other will "win" and everything I have invested in the "looser" will go down the toilet. Well, I say NO!!!

I'll wait till there is a clear winner before I show my support (purchasing anything with either logo on it). Let these mega corporations figure these things out with their own money, not mine.


----------



## B Newt

Im still mad that beta and vhs beat out my old cartravison recorder.....


----------



## Marriner

Sirshagg said:


> It's NOTHING like the E* vs D* rivalry. I can get HBO, Showtime, USA, SciFi, etc on either of them.


Oh yea..., tune into Rave HD or Monster HD on your HR-20 while I sign up for NFL Sunday Ticket on my E* Box. Consumers make choices all of the time. The Informed choice is usually the best.


----------



## DBS Commando

Marriner said:


> After reading all of the posts in this thread, a couple of things come to mind. Format wars of various kinds have been around for decades. I think that competition is a good thing. On this subject most of us need only look at the E* D* rivalary and their competition with Comcast et al. This healthy battle, both technical and commercial, give us more features, content, programming, etc. To say "i am not getting either one until the other is dead and gone" is the equivalent of getting your TV programming ONLY OTA.
> 
> Let the competition rage. Prices will go down. Technology will improve. and you the consumer will win.
> 
> Be Ye Patient


How is this type of competition a good thing? Most of the consumers are keeping their money out of the HD movie market as they wait to see which format will win. Some of them are not even buying regular DVD's because they rather see movies in hi-def and don't want to double dip.

Not to mention, all the studios who are playing favorites are not helping at all.

The sooner this war is over, the better. The technology is similar and I'm sure that as soon as 1 format dies, the prices on the surviving format will shoot up for a while. This is one of the rare times where competition can be a bad thing.


----------



## Marriner

DBS Commando said:


> How is this type of competition a good thing? Most of the consumers are keeping their money out of the HD movie market as they wait to see which format will win. Some of them are not even buying regular DVD's because they rather see movies in hi-def and don't want to double dip.
> 
> Not to mention, all the studios who are playing favorites are not helping at all.
> 
> The sooner this war is over, the better. The technology is similar and I'm sure that as soon as 1 format dies, the prices on the surviving format will shoot up for a while. This is one of the rare times where competition can be a bad thing.


Economics 101, Todays Topic: Supply and Demand:

"How is this type of competition a good thing? Most of the consumers are keeping their money out of the HD movie market as they wait to see which format will win."

This behavior, if it is true, will result in a decrease in demand. This will increase the supply of players, software, etc. With a decrease in demand and an increase in supply, what do you get? Anyone?

That's right *LOWER PRICES*

"Not to mention, all the studios who are playing favorites are not helping at all."

How does this behavior make any sense at all?

I, the big studio home video distribution manager will show those cretons who bought the player I don't support, I will distribute only my preferred format. That will show them!!

They will all come to their senses sometime soon and as always happens the market will determine all of the answers. If nobody buys Blu-ray players this Christmas because they are too expensive, The price will come down. (Exhibit 'A' the $29 DVD player) How many of us had to have the First DVD players back when they were $499.95. I know, I bought my first audio CD player in 1986 for $249 (a no name brand, single disk, with no remote control).

This is not gasoline, electricity, water or anything else required to live or work. Patience will be rewarded if you want to wait. If you don't want to wait, Buy a player that will play your ten favorite movies and enjoy it.


----------



## machavez00

from:Castellini on Computers; www.helpmerick.com
Submitted by Adam on August 31, 2007 - 8:10pm. * Riding Shotgun with Adam

For every Apple device that becomes a standard there is a Sony technology that becomes obsolete. Apple and Sony both got off to a great start in the early 80s. Apple introduced the Mac and Sony gave us the Walkman.

From that point on, Apple has had only a handful of market failures and Sony has had nothing but. Sony announced their latest casualty this week by discontinuing their proprietary ATRAC audio compression file format.

While the rest of the world committed to MP3 and WMA or Apple's music format for iTunes, Sony made up their own format only supported by their devices. Sony saw Apple succeeding with their own format and device and figured they could do the same.

There were only a few problems with this line of thinking. Sony's devices were clunky at best and the obscure conversion format meant that users had to use included software to convert their CDs into the ATRAC format.

Sony tried to make their devices and format more popular by releasing new players every few months for a while surprisingly that didn't work.

The ATRAC format is only the latest proprietary Sony technology to fade into obsolescence.

It all began with BetaMax and it continues with Blu-Ray and the digital book. Sony has a long history of creating their own standards and unsuccessfully trying to get the rest of the world to adopt them.

I believe it's all about the money. With each new Sony format comes licensing issues.

Companies must pay Sony to utilize their technology. Typically the Sony proprietary standard is not any better than the existing standard.

Let's take a quick look back at the long line of Sony proprietary technology...

see the list *here*


----------



## Cholly

Wishful thinking on Adam's part? It's silly to suggest that the Playstation, Memory Stick and Blu-ray Disc are failures, since they are currently in the marketplace. Sony has huge market clout and deep pockets. I wouldn't write them off.


----------



## Christopher Gould

O.k. here is some B.S.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070903/tc_nm/highdefinition_war_dc;_ylt=Ak7LYhWxOcZ6tg1wEUjKiLNk24cA

"The more positive development for the industry ... would have been having the Blu-Ray-exclusive studios start releasing on HD DVD," Adams said. "We think ... there's some inevitability that they will have to release in both formats."

Wouldn't have just be easier if Paramount Pictures and DreamWorks Animation SKG Inc stayed netural and Universal Studios releasing on both formats. We could have changed one company easier than Half a dozen.


----------



## harsh

Cholly said:


> It's silly to suggest that the Playstation, Memory Stick and Blu-ray Disc are failures, since they are currently in the marketplace.


While the Playstation was an unqualified success, the PS3 has thus far turned out to be little more than a affordable BD player. Memory Stick is still a Sony proprietary exclusive in the tradition noted by machavez00.

Remember Mini Disc and Digital 8?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

...to come back to it, if that Venturer HDDVD player hits WalMart, Target and KMart with a price of $199 or $149 this Xmas, I'm calling it in favor of HDDVD, unless of course Blu-Ray does the same thing. 

And don't remind me of Digital 8.


----------



## Cholly

A little lengthy post: I checked to find availability of high definition DVD players at a few big box stores.
Wal-Mart sells HD DVD players (Toshiba HD-A2) online only (Site to Store) for pickup at a local store. The Sony BDP-S300 Blu-ray Disc player is sold in the Charlotte area at only two stores - one in Gastonia, the other in Monroe. The Sony and the Philips BDP900/37 are both available online.
Target lists the Sony BDP-S300 online with free shipping and also available at some stores, but NOT in Charlotte area stores. The Toshiba HD-A2 and HD-A20 are both listed as available online, with free shipping.
Sears lists the Toshiba HD-A2, Sony BDP-S300 and LG BH100 (dual format) as being available online for home delivery and delivery to store for pickup. No indication on their website as to store stock.
Circuit City lists BD players by LG, Samsung and Sony, but only the Sony players are available in Charlotte area stores (the BDP-S1 is available in only one store). The Toshiba HD-A2 and HD-A20 are listed as available in all three local stores.
As for Best Buy, they have the widest selection of players of the group: the LG BH100, Samsung BD-P1200, Sony BDP-S300, Toshiba HD-A20 and HD-A2 all available both online and in at least one local store. They also list the Panasonic DMP-BD10AK and Pioneer BDP-94HD Blu-ray players as being available only in stores.

My 1500th post!:joy: :icon_kiff


----------



## Sirshagg

Cholly said:


> My 1500th post!:joy: :icon_kiff


:balloons: :joy::roundandr:goodjob::allthumbs :icon_hroc :dance01: :jumpingja:icon_bb: :new_smili :icon_bb: :jumpingja :dance01: :icon_hroc :allthumbs :goodjob: :roundandr :joy: :balloons:


----------



## Nick

Cholly said:


> ...My 1500th post! :joy:


Amateur! :lol:


----------



## Christopher Gould

Stuart Sweet said:


> ...to come back to it, if that Venturer HDDVD player hits WalMart, Target and KMart with a price of $199 or $149 this Xmas, I'm calling it in favor of HDDVD, unless of course Blu-Ray does the same thing.
> 
> And don't remind me of Digital 8.


i read some where walmart wasnt going to carry the venturer player, but i can't remember where?


----------



## Cholly

Nick said:


> Amateur! :lol:


Hey, no fair! You have two years on me  And you're probably the champion thread starter, too! :goofygrin


----------



## Cholly

Christopher Gould said:


> i read some where walmart wasnt going to carry the venturer player, but i can't remember where?


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=900721


----------



## DBS Commando

HD DVD Price Plunge could be expected:

http://www.betanews.com/article/New_Chinese_Involvement_Could_Trigger_HD_DVD_Price_Plunge/1189196071


----------



## Cholly

Six new HD DVD player brands announced for 4th quarter:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=903591

This in addition to another announcement:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=904664

Seems as though the HD DVD camp is picking up steam.


----------



## jpl

For what it's worth, I was going to wait for the format wars to end, but decided to wade into the waters afterall. Why? In a word - price. I got the Toshiba A2 for $236 - about the same price we paid for our first standard DVD player, and less than what I paid for my first, and my second, VCR. I've long believed that price will drive this more than anything. There are some real video-philes out there (including many on this forum) who go for the top of the line equipment. That's great. But that's not the norm. Most folks don't do that. I believe that price drives demand to a very large extent. It's the reason that VHS won the VCR format wars in my opinion. I never bought the whole porn-effect. Most folks didn't opt for the VHS machine so they could watch porn. Most did because it was just cheaper.

Put it this way, for less than $250 it was worth it for me to make the jump now. For over $500 (the starting price I found for Blu-Ray) - nope, just not worth it to me. I think at the end of the day HD wins this war for the same reason VHS did. Once sales hit critical mass, it won't be easy to stop. I'm not a fan-boy of HD (in case anyone gets that impression). I was willing to go with either format. But after I saw the lower price, and then did some comparisons on the features, HD was the way for me to go. One point on the features - one that I found a big selling point - as will many others. The fact that many HD DVDs are dual format. You can play them on an SD DVD player as well as an HD. I think this feature is really undersold and overlooked. Most folks who buy an HD product, have SD products somewhere else in the house (I have 2 other DVD players - both SD). It would suck severly if I bought that movie in HD format, but could ONLY play it on my HD DVD player. The fact that I could pop it into my other DVD players is a pretty big benefit.

Imagine buying that Disney Blu-ray disc - say Cars. You go on a trip with the kids. They ask you to put a movie on in the mini-van's dvd player. Imagine telling them "ok, but not that latest one we just bought - can't play it in the car." Sound trite - maybe... but not to me (I've got 4 younger kids and I know the drill).

Again, I haven't drunk any kool-aide on this. I'm a very average consumer who makes decisions pretty much like a very average consumer. And when I weighed things, HD was the better format for me. I really think Blu-Ray is going to price themselves out of the market. Same thing that happened to Beta. Just my opinion on the matter, so take it for what it's worth.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Anyone heard of the new HD format, HD-VMD?

link


----------



## Christopher Gould

Cholly said:


> Six new HD DVD player brands announced for 4th quarter:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=903591
> 
> This in addition to another announcement:
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=904664
> 
> Seems as though the HD DVD camp is picking up steam.


thats not steam thats chineses junk. looks more like panic price reduction just to try to get sales.


----------



## Cholly

Chris: Onkyo, Integra, Alpine, Samsung and LG are not Chinese manufacturers. Additionally, many Japanese and American electronics companies have manufacturing plants in China. 

(You'll note that I've made quite a few posts in this forum. I've been following the format war for some time now, and even though I have an HD DVD player (Toshiba HD-A2, made in Japan), I don't favor one format over the other -- my purchase was dictated in part by price, but also by features.)


----------



## Richard King

Report: Toshiba Courting Warner to Go HD DVD-Only 
http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=74796&var=story#74796


> Having persuaded Paramount and DreamWorks -thanks to a big wad of cash- to flip their hi-def disc allegiance to HD DVD-only, that format's backer Toshiba is reportedly pushing to make the only remaining dual-format Hollywood studio do the same.


More....


----------



## Christopher Gould

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#offer2

warner no change


----------



## bobukcat

Marriner said:


> Economics 101, Todays Topic: Supply and Demand:
> 
> "How is this type of competition a good thing? Most of the consumers are keeping their money out of the HD movie market as they wait to see which format will win."
> 
> This behavior, if it is true, will result in a decrease in demand. This will increase the supply of players, software, etc. With a decrease in demand and an increase in supply, what do you get? Anyone?
> 
> That's right *LOWER PRICES*
> 
> .


The biggest problem with your argument is that, particulary in luxury items (read leading-edge or high-end consumer electronics) lack of demand does NOT necessarily equal lower costs. In fact the oposite is often true in the industry; as demand increases, chip and component costs drop dramatically, designs become commodotized and prices drop like a rock! Remember Laser Discs, they offered way better picture quality but they never could sell enough of them to get prices down to where your Joe-Average consumer thought it was worth it and the format was a failure. This has happened with SACD and other formats too, and in this case most people believe the picture they get from their SD DVD is plenty good so they won't take the risk - many probably still remember going to the video store and having to make sure they picked up the proper format tape (Beta or VHS) and they won't take the chance of getting stuck with equipment that is obsolete while the other format takes over.

As for your D* vs E* argument, it's true you can't get a few channels on both carriers but nothing like ESPN, CNN, or the very highest viewed channels (if you want to talk NFLST that has been D* esclusive from the beginning so again, I don't think it's applicable). AND if you do choose one and decide to switch to the other later there is often deals with very low or $0 cost to switch. That's not the same as buying an HD-DVD player and not being able to watch the Spiderman trilogy and other mega-hit movies in HD on it! (The inverse is true for BD of course...). Who cares if they EVENTUALLy release it in your format (if your format wins that is), it sucks until they do and most people will wait and see - there is *no way *that is good for the industry or either format.


----------



## Chuck W

Having just bought I nice new Sony 40" XBR4, I HAD to get into the High Def DVD game, so I went........ format neutral, picking up a Toshiba A20(for a great price) and a PS3. This way I don't have worry which side wins and I don't have to worry about not being able to view the movies I want, in HD.

Personally I don't care who wins, but for either side to really "win", they both need to get their media prices DOWN. HD DVD is heading in the right direction, with the prices of their players approaching sub-$200 and their disks going for $25(however those dual format disks, while a nice idea, get in the way a jack the price up because you have no choice but to buy the combo if you want a particular movie). 

However, I really don't think the average Joe, even if they happen to GET a high def player(HD DVD or Blu-Ray), will bother buying too many disks, at all, until the price drops to < $20 ON RELEASE DAY. Many people just won't spend $30 on a new HD release, when they can get the SD version for usually < $15. 

IMO, the first company to get players to at or BELOW $150 AND their media prices to below $20 ON RELEASE DAY, will probably win this war.


----------



## djlong

I think I'm going to buy the new LG multi-drive for a new PC and do all my Hi-Def viewing through that. I wish I could get a D* or E* decoder that would allow me to use MS's Media Center features "all in one" but it is apparently never going to happen as it's been "Real Soon Now" for over a year and a half. SO I'll just get a whole PC for the cost of a combo player.


----------



## DBS Commando

Sony moving to Blu-Ray only in Japan (no more regular DVD's)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,137152-c,dvdtechnology/article.html


----------



## Sirshagg

DBS Commando said:


> Sony moving to Blu-Ray only in Japan (no more regular DVD's)
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,137152-c,dvdtechnology/article.html


Good, that will bring the costs down for us.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

ARRGGGGHHH!!! i just want someone to win the format war already!!!

Sorry, just needed to vent a little.


----------



## Cholly

DBS Commando said:


> Sony moving to Blu-Ray only in Japan (no more regular DVD's)
> 
> http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,137152-c,dvdtechnology/article.html


They're talking about DVD recorders. Not likely to impact DVD sales here for some time to come.


----------



## Richard King

Format War Forever?
http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=76729&var=story#76729


> A new study by the British media research firm Screen Digest has found that both the Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD formats are sustainable well into the future- but that the five Hollywood studios wed to a single format are missing out on as much as $175 million in yearly revenues by not supporting both. The Web site World Screen News reported on Screen Digest's results.


More...


----------



## Nick

*Home Theater Group HTSA Endorses Blu-ray*

TVPredictions: 


> Washington, D.C. (September 24, 2007) -- Home Theater Specialists of America is
> endorsing Blu-ray over HD DVD in the high-def disc format war.
> 
> The HTSA, which represents Home Theater installers and high-end CE stores, says
> a survey of its members found that 92 percent of their high-def player sales have
> been Blu-ray players. The remaining eight percent were HD DVD players or combo
> units that playback both formats.
> 
> Yhe HTSA believes its endorsement of Blu-ray will "strengthen retailer commitment
> to providing more (Blu-ray)-based devices to meet growing consumer demand." ...


More @ TVPredictions.com


----------



## Cholly

Of course they would endorse Blu-Ray! There's more profit to be made by selling Blu-Ray product. Toshiba isn't a big factor in their marketplace, while there are several midrange manufacturers supporting Blu-Ray. 
One format isn't necessarily better than the other. Both have theri strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## Richard King

http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=77854&var=story#77854

Study: Format War to Last Through '09


> The high-definition disc format war between HD DVD and Blu-ray is likely to last another 18 months, with mass adoption of one format or the other unlikely until early 2009, according to a Forrester Research study cited by Reuters. Forrester also reiterated its previous prediction that Sony's Blu-ray will eventually win the fight.


More...

Still more.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070924/tc_nm/dvd_battle_dc;_ylt=AoRgzdDxOnS6BBTEyMpVbJYjtBAF


----------



## machavez00

Circuit City and BB have the A2 for $249. On top of that CC is also giving a $100 gift card with any Toshiba HD DVD purchase. BB offers two free HD DVDs at time of purchase in addition to the 5 free by mail.


----------



## DCSholtis

machavez00 said:


> Circuit City and BB have the A2 for $249. On top of that CC is also giving a $100 gift card with any Toshiba HD DVD purchase. BB offers two free HD DVDs at time of purchase in addition to the 5 free by mail.


Amazon.com has it for $237.99 with 2 free HD-DVDs at checkout plus another 5 by mail for a total of 7.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=310080201&pf_rd_i=B000IJV4BC


> 1. Check the boxes next to the player and two HD DVDs that you'd like to order today. (Limit three HD DVD players per customer. Quantities are limited; order now before we run out!)
> 
> 2. Make your purchase--the promotional discount will be applied at checkout. You will see a credit in your shopping cart.
> 
> 3. Get 5 more discs for free: Download the mail-in rebate form, and print it out. When you receive your player, fill out the form with your choice of movies--you'll need the UPC code located on the player's package--and send it in to the address indicated on the form by March 31, 2008.


----------



## MONSTERMAN

Since always a SONY fan I would of course choose the superior Blu-ray:
Just some standard info about the differences and future expandability of the better option of Blu-ray:
HD-DVD capacity of 30 (GB)
Blu-ray capacity of 50 (GB)

Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD use the same kind of 405 nanometer wavelength blue-violet laser. That means both can focus more sharply than the 650 nanometer red lasers used in current DVD players, and so both can store much more information on the same surface area of a disc. 
But there are important differences between them. 
Blu-ray packs data into a tighter single spiral on the surface of a disc than HD-DVD. That means a single disk can carry more digital “pits” – the tiny zeroes and ones that are translated into audio and digital content when a disc is played. 
That means that a Blu-ray discs can carry more information "per layer" (or, if you like, "spiral"). But it also makes the two formats incompatible. 

A standard double-layer DVD has 9 gigabytes (GB) capacity. HD-DVD is capable of holding 30GB of data – or a full-length high-definition movie, plus extras – on a double-layer disc, but Blu-ray launched with 50GB capacity. 
It means that the two competing systems must use a different coating on their discs – HD-DVD uses a surface layer that is 0.6mm thick. Blu-ray’s is much thinner at 0.1mm. 
This is the root of what makes Blu-ray more expensive to produce – the thinner surface means standard DVD plants need to be re-tooled. A special hard coating must also be added to protect the information stored on a disc’s surface. 
Blu-ray is the more sophisticated format – and is being hailed as a “leapfrog” technology. That advance comes at a price, however. 
The theory is borne out by a (very) quick search on the internet to compare prices of HD DVD players and their Blu-ray peers.


----------



## machavez00

51 GB HD DVD soon to released


----------



## bobukcat

machavez00 said:


> 51 GB HD DVD soon to released


TDK already has a *200GB* BD disk and Sony has plans to launch a *250GB *disk by 2009.... there is no doubt that in maximum possible capacity BD has the edge, the question becomes "how much do they need for a consumer disk"? I suppose if they have a 250GB disk they could do a series season on only one disk...

http://www.redherring.com/Home/18293

Note that this story is from August of LAST year!


----------



## DCSholtis

machavez00 said:


> Circuit City and BB have the A2 for $249. On top of that CC is also giving a $100 gift card with any Toshiba HD DVD purchase. BB offers two free HD DVDs at time of purchase in addition to the 5 free by mail.


Actually I just purchased the A3 from Robert at Value Electronics for $279. He has different packages available. I took the package with the HDMI cord included and a 7 inch B&W TV. Bourne Identity and 300 come in the box plus you get the 5 by mail from Toshiba.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

There is a rumor of a $399 Playstation 3 (40g drive, no card reader, 2 usb ports). I just bought a PS3. I like having a HD DVD player downstairs and a PS3 upstairs, but I'm wondering now if I should have bought an A3 HD DVD for upstairs. But now we have both so we're good.


----------



## machavez00

DCSholtis said:


> Actually I just purchased the A3 from Robert at Value Electronics for $279. He has different packages available. I took the package with the HDMI cord included and a 7 inch B&W TV. Bourne Identity and 300 come in the box plus you get the 5 by mail from Toshiba.


I thought the A3 wasn't due out until 11/1.


----------



## DCSholtis

machavez00 said:


> I thought the A3 wasn't due out until 11/1.


Robert from Value Electronics is shipping them next week. Here is a link to the discussion thread on it from AVSForums.com

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=900216

EDIT: VE is sending them out starting tomorrow per a post Robert made at AVSForums.com


----------



## Drew2k

hairth said:


> good deal sar iiiiiii


This user is a spammer - registered today to post a link.

Reported to mods.


----------



## DBS Commando

Toshiba says HD-DVD Players are back on top:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6488493.html

and Blu-Ray will be back on top next week 

I wouldn't be surprised if this was true. The A2 is so cheap that a lot of people must be jumping on them. Aren't Blu-Ray players stil $350+?


----------



## Cholly

The HD-A2 is selling for $227 at Amazon. They also have the lowest price for Blu-Ray - the Sony BDP-S300 for $399.99.


----------



## PTravel

Does it bother anyone that the A2 (and the A3) are only 1080i? The A35 is 1080p, but it's listing at $100 more.


----------



## dpfaunts

PTravel said:


> Does it bother anyone that the A2 (and the A3) are only 1080i? The A35 is 1080p, but it's listing at $100 more.


I just picked up a HD-A30 ($323) also 1080p..... The picture is fabulous and I think if you have a 1080p TV the cost is well justified. You'd be missing something at only 1080i. The player can also do 24 fps playback as well.


----------



## machavez00

PTravel said:


> Does it bother anyone that the A2 (and the A3) are only 1080i? The A35 is 1080p, but it's listing at $100 more.


if I had a 1080p set maybe, My Sammy is 720p, so I don't see the benifit


----------



## jutley

PTravel said:


> Does it bother anyone that the A2 (and the A3) are only 1080i? The A35 is 1080p, but it's listing at $100 more.


I guess it really depends on how good the processor is on your TV. If I understand correctly the 1080i is no big deal if you have a TV with a good upscaler that deinterlaces that 1080i signal and displays it at 1080p.


----------



## Drew2k

PTravel said:


> Does it bother anyone that the A2 (and the A3) are only 1080i? The A35 is 1080p, but it's listing at $100 more.


I just got the latest Crutchfield catalog.

They list the A20 as 1080p for $399.99.

The XA2 is also 180p but is $799.99.

More interesting to me is the Samsung BD-UP5000 combo HD-DVD & Blu-ray player. 1080p, BD-Java and HDi capable ...and ths is ALSO $799.99

If you're looking for an HD player why would you ever buy the XA2 when the same price gets a player that handles both formats?


----------



## jutley

Drew2k said:


> I just got the latest Crutchfield catalog.
> 
> They list the A20 as 1080p for $399.99.
> 
> The XA2 is also 180p but is $799.99.
> 
> More interesting to me is the Samsung BD-UP5000 combo HD-DVD & Blu-ray player. 1080p, BD-Java and HDi capable ...and ths is ALSO $799.99
> 
> If you're looking for an HD player why would you ever buy the XA2 when the same price gets a player that handles both formats?


Amazon has the X2 for $533.97 but no price for the BD-UP5000. I'm with you though, if I am going to spend that much money I'm going to get the combo unless the features don't compare.


----------



## PTravel

dpfaunts said:


> I just picked up a HD-A30 ($323) also 1080p..... The picture is fabulous and I think if you have a 1080p TV the cost is well justified. You'd be missing something at only 1080i. The player can also do 24 fps playback as well.


May I ask where you found the A30 for $323? I haven't seen it lower than $399.


----------



## PTravel

jutley said:


> I guess it really depends on how good the processor is on your TV. If I understand correctly the 1080i is no big deal if you have a TV with a good upscaler that deinterlaces that 1080i signal and displays it at 1080p.


I've got a Toshiba Regza 42" that does 1080p. I haven't really done a scientific comparison, but I have compared my locals received via ATSC on my HR20-700 (1080i) with the output of my BluRay DVD player (1080p). There is, to my eye, a very perceptible difference. There is more depth to the 1080p image -- the images seem to "pop" more. Of course, this is based on very limited experience; I've only had the TV for a few weeks, and I've only 2 BluRay DVDs (Phantom of the Opera and Blue Planet) for 1080p sources, and my local broadcasts for 1080i.


----------



## PTravel

Drew2k said:


> If you're looking for an HD player why would you ever buy the XA2 when the same price gets a player that handles both formats?


From what I read, the combi players don't fully implement HD -- there are problems with menu access and some other rather fundamental parts of the HD spec. This may have changed, but the recommendations that I've read (primarily in HomeTheater magazine) are to avoid this generation of combi players unless you absolutely, positively have to have one. Everyone seems to be predicting sub-$200 HD machines for Christmas. It might make sense to wait a while.

I'm still betting on BluRay (I bought a Sony SDS300), particularly now that Blockbusters has committed to BluRay-only. However, if there's a cheapie HD machine out, I'll pick it up, just for backup (I have a Beta VCR as well as a VHS machine, too -- ya never know!  )


----------



## Drew2k

PTravel said:


> From what I read, the combi players don't fully implement HD -- there are problems with menu access and some other rather fundamental parts of the HD spec. This may have changed, but the recommendations that I've read (primarily in HomeTheater magazine) are to avoid this generation of combi players unless you absolutely, positively have to have one. Everyone seems to be predicting sub-$200 HD machines for Christmas. It might make sense to wait a while.
> 
> I'm still betting on BluRay (I bought an a Sony SDS300), particularly now that Blockbusters has committed to BluRay-only. However, if there's a cheapie HD machine out, I'll pick it up, just for backup (I have a Beta VCR as well as a HVS machine, too -- ya never know!  )


Thanks for the info. I'm really just starting to pay more attention to HD players, with the goal of maybe buying one by Christmas. I know I have a lot more research to do ...


----------



## DCSholtis

PTravel said:


> May I ask where you found the A30 for $323? I haven't seen it lower than $399.


Value Electronics has it for $349.


----------



## dpfaunts

PTravel said:


> May I ask where you found the A30 for $323? I haven't seen it lower than $399.


Yep, listed on Amazon today

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HD-A3...9?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video&qid=1192218229&sr=1-7


----------



## Cholly

From what I've seen, nobody beats Amazon on price for both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc players.


----------



## DCSholtis

dpfaunts said:


> Yep, listed on Amazon today
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HD-A3...9?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video&qid=1192218229&sr=1-7


It's now $292!!


----------



## Capmeister

I got an HD-A2 and I'm very happy with it. I love HD-DVD. I think it will win the fight.


----------



## machavez00

bought an A2 for $249+2 free in store At BB. "The Mummy" and T3 looked awesome. I'm going to buy "Transformers" on Tuesday.


----------



## DCSholtis

Well I have an order in with VE for an A3 but I've decided to give that to my Dad for Christmas when it arrives. (I'll wrap it and all the good stuff ). But I saw a thread in one of the other forums I scour and saw hhgregg.com has the A3s in stock for $249. Its $20 shipping but still a good buy, IMO.


----------



## Cholly

DCSholtis said:


> Well I have an order in with VE for an A3 but I've decided to give that to my Dad for Christmas when it arrives. (I'll wrap it and all the good stuff ). But I saw a thread in one of the other forums I scour and saw hhgregg.com has the A3s in stock for $249. Its $20 shipping but still a good buy, IMO.


Fascinating...Amazon says November availability on the A3. I'll have to check my local HHGregg today.

As to the A2....a search on pricegrabber.com today shows the A2 for $199 at Beach Camera and buydig.com. The A3 is nowhere to be found on pricegrabber.


----------



## ShawnL25

May I ask why you wouldn't buy the 40gb PS3 for 399.99 and use it as a 1080p blu ray player. It has faster load times and updates via wifi. Even if you never play a game on it this is a great buy, I would think more people would be interested.


----------



## DCSholtis

Cholly said:


> Fascinating...Amazon says November availability on the A3. I'll have to check my local HHGregg today.
> 
> As to the A2....a search on pricegrabber.com today shows the A2 for $199 at Beach Camera and buydig.com. The A3 is nowhere to be found on pricegrabber.


I know, I just cancelled the A3 order from VE and going to hold of on Dad's till nearer to Christmas then decide between the A2 and A3 for him. However I DID see that deal for the A2 at $199 so I may end up with that and wrapping the damn thing, or spending a bit more and have Amazon do it.  I did go ahead and buy the A3 from hhgregg though for myself.


----------



## DCSholtis

ShawnL25 said:


> May I ask why you wouldn't buy the 40gb PS3 for 399.99 and use it as a 1080p blu ray player. It has faster load times and updates via wifi. Even if you never play a game on it this is a great buy, I would think more people would be interested.


Already own a Sony BDP. Not interested in a game console.


----------



## ibglowin

Just in case you missed it, Sony is trying to counter the huge HD-DVD sales of Transformers this week with a BOGO sale at alot of places including Amazon and BB.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...5?ie=UTF8&plgroup=1&docId=1000146321&plpage=1

I just picked up 2 BD's for $19.56 with 2 day Prime. (I get the 10% HD discount). Less than $10 each is pretty darn nice. Competition is good as they say. BTW, my HD-DVD copy of Transformers will be here tomorrow. Format Neutral is the only way to go!


----------



## jutley

ibglowin said:


> (I get the 10% HD discount).


Can you tell us what this is?


----------



## PTravel

ShawnL25 said:


> May I ask why you wouldn't buy the 40gb PS3 for 399.99 and use it as a 1080p blu ray player. It has faster load times and updates via wifi. Even if you never play a game on it this is a great buy, I would think more people would be interested.


All BluRay DVD players are not the same. The following factors would be of concern (perhaps someone else knows the specs for the PS3 version):

1. 3:2 pickup performance. This is critical when watching films (and its how a DVD player or television can show a 24 fps source at the 30 frame/60 field per second rate of television sets).

2. Ability to out put 1080p/24. If your TV accepts this (mine does), it eliminates the concern over 3:2 pickup for film sources.

3. Up-scaling capability when watching standard definition DVDs. Given the current predominance of SD material (and relative paucity of BluRay and/or HD DVDs), this is another critical performance metric.

I don't know how well the add-on PS3 BluRay player does at these. I do know that the $450 (or less) Sony BDS-300 (which is what I have) does all three extremely well.


----------



## ibglowin

Amazon had a special back at Xmas if you bought 3 High Def Disc you would qualify for a one year 10% off all future High Def disc purchased through them. Very nice program for us early adopters.



jutley said:


> Can you tell us what this is?


----------



## jutley

ibglowin said:


> Amazon had a special back at Xmas if you bought 3 High Def Disc you would qualify for a one year 10% off all future High Def disc purchased through them. Very nice program for us early adopters.


Thanks for the information. Maybe they'll offer it again this year, but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## DCSholtis

ibglowin said:


> Just in case you missed it, Sony is trying to counter the huge HD-DVD sales of Transformers this week with a BOGO sale at alot of places including Amazon and BB.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...5?ie=UTF8&plgroup=1&docId=1000146321&plpage=1
> 
> I just picked up 2 BD's for $19.56 with 2 day Prime. (I get the 10% HD discount). Less than $10 each is pretty darn nice. Competition is good as they say. BTW, my HD-DVD copy of Transformers will be here tomorrow. Format Neutral is the only way to go!


J&R Music also had a great deal last week on their Blu-Rays


----------



## bobukcat

Looks like BB is offering a free A30 with select Toshiba TV purchases.

http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat132600050002&type=category


----------



## ShawnL25

PTravel said:


> All BluRay DVD players are not the same. The following factors would be of concern (perhaps someone else knows the specs for the PS3 version):
> 
> 1. 3:2 pickup performance. This is critical when watching films (and its how a DVD player or television can show a 24 fps source at the 30 frame/60 field per second rate of television sets).
> 
> 2. Ability to out put 1080p/24. If your TV accepts this (mine does), it eliminates the concern over 3:2 pickup for film sources.
> 
> 3. Up-scaling capability when watching standard definition DVDs. Given the current predominance of SD material (and relative paucity of BluRay and/or HD DVDs), this is another critical performance metric.
> 
> I don't know how well the add-on PS3 BluRay player does at these. I do know that the $450 (or less) Sony BDS-300 (which is what I have) does all three extremely well.


1.It is on par with the BDS-300

2. It outputs true 1080p/24 thru hdmi 1.3

3. It is hands down ranked as the best upscaler on the market. check hi-def digest

4. it's not an add on it's built in.

I find the advantage of wifi and increased load times make this a slam dunk choice at the new price range.


----------



## DCSholtis

Cholly said:


> Fascinating...Amazon says November availability on the A3. I'll have to check my local HHGregg today.
> 
> As to the A2....a search on pricegrabber.com today shows the A2 for $199 at Beach Camera and buydig.com. The A3 is nowhere to be found on pricegrabber.


Cholly if your looking for an A3 you can order it from hhgregg.com and have it shipped to your local HHGregg if its not already in the store.

Edit: DAMN that was quick. UPS is delivering it today!


----------



## Cholly

DCSholtis said:


> Cholly if your looking for an A3 you can order it from hhgregg.com and have it shipped to your local HHGregg if its not already in the store.
> 
> Edit: DAMN that was quick. UPS is delivering it today!


I went to my local HHGregg this afternoon. They had 2 A3''s in stock, so I bought one at the $249 price.


----------



## DCSholtis

Cholly said:


> I went to my local HHGregg this afternoon. They had 2 A3''s in stock, so I bought one at the $249 price.


Glad to hear it. I wasnt able to get the one from VE cancelled in time so Dad ended up with a REAL early Christmas present. Also an A3..:lol: Damn I'm a good son I gotta admit.


----------



## Richard King

http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN2352882020071023?pageNumber=1
Blu-ray outsells HD-DVD in U.S. for first 9 months


> LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Blu-ray DVD titles outsold rival HD-DVD titles by almost 2-to-1 in the first nine months of the year, but analysts expect additional HD-DVD support and new hit releases to "transform" the high-definition DVD battle score in the fourth quarter.
> 
> Home Media Research, a division of Home Media Magazine, said on Tuesday total U.S. sales of Blu-ray discs, using a Sony Corp (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research)-backed technology, totaled 2.6 million units from January 1 through Sept 30, versus 1.4 million HD-DVD discs sold.


More.....


----------



## machavez00




----------



## Stuart Sweet

I saw that image at engadget, and honestly I've said before quite simply, 

"Whoever gets a player into Wal-Mart for $199 wins". 

We'll see if I'm right.


----------



## Richard King

Does that come with a bunch of free movies at that price? That might get me to jump off the fence. I wonder when one will show up on Woot. :lol:


----------



## machavez00

The A2 has the 5 free via mail. the A3 comes with two in the box and 5 free by mail. I believe the Wal-Mart model is the A2


----------



## Sirshagg

At a sub $200 price point I'd bet ALOT of players will be sold this holiday season.


----------



## jutley

Sirshagg said:


> At a sub $200 price point I'd bet ALOT of players will be sold this holiday season.


No doubt there.

The sub $200 price range will have lots of people jumping on the HD-DVD side. I might even pick up another one for the bedroom.


----------



## Christopher Gould

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...s_Weekly_Win_Against_Transformers_HD_DVD/1109

blu-ray beat hd-dvd's transformers


----------



## Sirshagg

Christopher Gould said:


> http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...s_Weekly_Win_Against_Transformers_HD_DVD/1109
> 
> blu-ray beat hd-dvd's transformers


At 50% off I would imagine so.


----------



## Drew2k

This is day-old news, but ...


> *Samsung Cancels Blu-ray Player, Delays Dual-Mode Unit*
> 
> * By Ed Oswald, BetaNews *
> 
> *October 25, 2007, 3:58 PM*
> 
> *Samsung confirmed Wednesday that it was canceling one of its Blu-ray players, while delaying its dual-format model until the end of the year.*
> The Blu-ray-only BD-P2400 was set to debut at a price point of $649 USD. However, the device was essentially the same as the $100 cheaper BD-P1400, save for the addition of HQV video processing.
> 
> [...]
> 
> It could be making this move to focus on getting its own dual-format player out, the BD-UP5000. While the player was originally supposed to be released in October, the company now says it will not be released until mid- to late December.
> 
> [...]


Source: http://www.betanews.com/article/Samsung_Cancels_Bluray_Player_Delays_DualMode_Unit/1193342319


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Sirshagg said:


> At 50% off I would imagine so.


Speaking of 50% off, Wal-Mart is running disney Blu-Ray at 2 for $25 (about 2 for $30 after shipping still).


----------



## DBS Commando

Circuit City now also has HDDVD players under $200:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9426


----------



## Lord Vader

Just a curiosity question, I suppose, but does anyone know if George Lucas is planning on releasing the _Star Wars_ saga on HD or Blu-Ray? I haven't heard anything about this.


----------



## machavez00

DBS Commando said:


> Circuit City now also has HDDVD players under $200:
> 
> http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9426


Oh boy, that means another $52 foe me. I'll be headed to BB tomorrow for my refund!


----------



## DCSholtis

Lord Vader said:


> Just a curiosity question, I suppose, but does anyone know if George Lucas is planning on releasing the _Star Wars_ saga on HD or Blu-Ray? I haven't heard anything about this.


No word as yet, Lord Vader. Been checking out various boards myself trying to find out.


----------



## machavez00

looking forward to:Godfather I&II, Star Trek movies, Indiana Jones


----------



## DCSholtis

Don't forget the Jurassic Park movies...


----------



## Richard King

Also, don't forget that Black Friday is lurking just over the horizon.


----------



## Drew2k

Richard King said:


> Also, don't forget that Black Friday is lurking just over the horizon.


And there's one extra weekend of shopping before Christmas this year, because Thanksgiving is early this year.

Could be a lot of time for the two sides to watch what the other is doing and play catch-up with bonus offers ... and price drops, hopefully!


----------



## DCSholtis

Already happening with the sub $200 Toshiba HD-DVD players at Wal-Mart and Circuit City. But I agree it could be an interesting time, Drew.


----------



## Cholly

With the new Playstation 3 40 GB system priced at $399.99 with free Spiderman 3 movie, who in their right mind would buy a standalone Blu-ray Disc player for $390 or more (e.g. Sony BDP-S300, Samsung BD-P1400)? (Haven't seen anything about 5 additional free movies with the PS 3, though).


----------



## machavez00

I went to BB and got $62 back on their price match.

In total: $197+ 2 movies free in store with 5 more coming in the mail. Final cost ≈$22 ($197-7 free movies)


----------



## Cholly

I just checked over at bfads.net and found the Sears Black Friday ad info. Sears will be selling the Toshiba HD-A3 for $169.99 (I bought one from HHGregg recently for $249  ). I now have both an HD-A2 and an HD-A3. The HD-A3 lacks some of the features of the A2, but since I have it in my bedroom, feeding HDMI output to my 37" LCD TV and stereo output only to bedroom stereo system, I'm not too concerned.

Interestingly, Wal-Mart is threatening legal action against anyone who leaks their BF ads before Nov. 18th, so web sites are not posting anything Wal-Mart will be selling. As a result, all of the Black Friday web sites have pulled the Wal-Mart info. So far, Sears is the only retailer with electronics deals appearing on any of these sites.


----------



## machavez00

too bad that will be out side the 30 day price match limit. I could get another $28+10% back


----------



## Drew2k

Cholly said:


> I just checked over at bfads.net and found the Sears Black Friday ad info. Sears will be selling the Toshiba HD-A3 for $169.99 (I bought one from HHGregg recently for $249  ). I now have both an HD-A2 and an HD-A3. The HD-A3 lacks some of the features of the A2, but since I have it in my bedroom, feeding HDMI output to my 37" LCD TV and stereo output only to bedroom stereo system, I'm not too concerned.


In a nutshell, can you summarize what's lacking on the Toshiba HD-A3?

Thanks.


----------



## Sirshagg

Cholly said:


> I just checked over at *bfads.net* and found the Sears Black Friday ad info. Sears will be selling the Toshiba HD-A3 for $169.99 (I bought one from HHGregg recently for $249  ). I now have both an HD-A2 and an HD-A3. The HD-A3 lacks some of the features of the A2, but since I have it in my bedroom, feeding HDMI output to my 37" LCD TV and stereo output only to bedroom stereo system, I'm not too concerned.
> 
> Interestingly, Wal-Mart is threatening legal action against anyone who leaks their BF ads before Nov. 18th, so web sites are not posting anything Wal-Mart will be selling. As a result, all of the Black Friday web sites have pulled the Wal-Mart info. So far, Sears is the only retailer with electronics deals appearing on any of these sites.


Thanks, I didn't know about this site.


----------



## DCSholtis

Sirshagg said:


> Thanks, I didn't know about this site.


www.slickdeals.net is another one.


----------



## Cholly

Drew2k said:


> In a nutshell, can you summarize what's lacking on the Toshiba HD-A3?
> 
> Thanks.


The A2 has two Extension ports, the A3 has one
The A2 has an available S-Video output, the A3 does not.
According to posts on www.avsforum.com, the A3 converts Dolby Ditital Plus and Dolby TrueHD soundtracks to 640 Kbps Dolby Digital, and the A2 converts them to 1.5 Mbps DTS (this is on the toslink output).


----------



## Drew2k

Cholly said:


> The A2 has two Extension ports, the A3 has one
> The A2 has an available S-Video output, the A3 does not.
> According to posts on www.avsforum.com, the A3 converts Dolby Ditital Plus and Dolby TrueHD soundtracks to 640 Kbps Dolby Digital, and the A2 converts them to 1.5 Mbps DTS (this is on the toslink output).


Thanks. Sounds like the A3 scrimps a little ...


----------



## jutley

I'm to the point now that if the sales get crazy the next two months, which I assume they will, I may go to the dark side and add a BD player. I am an HD-DVD supporter, but there are so many BD movies that my family would like (especially Disney for the kids) that it is hard remaining steadfast in support of HD-DVD only. 

Oh the agony!


----------



## Sirshagg

It seems fairly clear that there will be no "winner" this year. HD-DVD will likely sell lots of players at their price points but Blue Ray appears to have more studios and therefore titles.

I'm beginning ot think we may be stuck with both for a long time.


----------



## TWJR

Toshiba HD DVD A-2 player at Walmart today for $98.00 in store special.


----------



## machavez00

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119267051987662923.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


> Clever movie buffs have discovered a workaround: Several dozen titles out in the U.S. exclusively on Blu-ray are available overseas on HD DVD. While studios like Sony, News Corp.'s Twentieth Century Fox and Walt Disney Co. tout their unswerving allegiance to Blu-ray stateside, in other countries titles like Sony's "xXx," Fox's "Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer" and Disney's "The Prestige" are available on HD DVD.
> 
> No overseas travel is necessary to tap into this stream of alternative discs. A visit to a site like www.amazon.co.uk does the trick, albeit typically at a higher price than in the U.S. For those reluctant to pay shipping costs from Europe or Asia or worried about currency conversions, gray-market U.S.-based sites such as www.xploitedcinema.com offer selections.


----------



## Lord Vader

Gotta love the Internet!


----------



## Drew2k

machavez00 said:


> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119267051987662923.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


Good find. What about regional encoding though?


----------



## machavez00

Drew2k said:


> Good find. What about regional encoding though?


HD-DVD is region free


----------



## machavez00

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9809165-1.html?tag=cnetfd.mt


> The $99 price tag is sweet, but the deal is even better than that. Toshiba continues to give away five free movies to anyone that buys an HD DVD player--all you need to do is fill out this form (PDF link) and mail it in. If you're not thrilled about Toshiba's selection of free movies (we're not either), Wal-Mart is also running on a sale on HD DVD movies tomorrow, priced at $14.96 each. That's a pretty significant discount, as most of the HD DVDs we saw at Amazon were priced from $20 to $30.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Not all movies are 14.95 - only a few.

I just returned from my local walmart, they still had over a dozen HD DVD PLayers on the shelf. So it may be possible to get them today still.


----------



## machavez00

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/announcement.php?f=&a=116


> HD Disc Format Areas Currently Closed For Posts
> To the Members and Guests of AVS Forum:
> 
> Many of you know first hand that AVS Forum is first and foremost a site dedicated to helping others get the best out of the equipment they own. We promote the in home audio and video experience. People helping people.
> 
> With that said, we are sad to say that this is only the second time in the history of AVS Forum where we needed to close down some sections of the site for a short time. In this case, it is the HD format areas for HD DVD and Blu-ray which will be closed to new posts.


I guess it was getting nasty


----------



## DCSholtis

I was there today and yeah it was getting nasty in a few posts.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I must have been fortunate and avoided reading the nasty ones... but I did notice the blocking when I was trying to reply to one of the normal threads. Shame that the bad apples once again spoiled the bunch.


----------



## Carl Spock

It's gotten just as nasty over on the Star Trek board, of all places. I'm active on trekbbs.com (I'm Outpost4 over there) and I posted in the Original Series forum that I'd bought a Toshiba HD-A2 because of the sale and was now planning on buying the first season of Star Trek on HD-DVD. This rah-rah pro Blu-ray guy, who I've seen around the board, has jumped all over my thread and taken it over. It's awful.

I don't get it. This is more than Ford vs. Chevy. I never saw it with VHS vs. Beta. Even vinyl people aren't this radical. They own CDs, too. This is something different to me. It's much more like the loyalty of a college football fan but even then, the most ardent Ohio State supporter can admit his team might suffer a defeat. Not these guys. This fervor that is like that of Mac people. It's not a box; it's a religion. Which is really weird because these boxes are passive and have only been around for a year. What makes guys like Matt on trekbbs go ape$hit for a DVD player? It's crazy.


----------



## jutley

I'm with you ggergm, I just don't get it at all.


----------



## DBS Commando

There's too many BluRay fanboys who have nothing better to do than rant on the internet and play their shiny PS3's...its gotten to a point where these people will probably cut themselves if BluRay doesn't win.


----------



## Carl Spock

:lol: 

It would at least cause them to grow the f*** up.


----------



## jwebb1970

ggergm said:


> It's gotten just as nasty over on the Star Trek board, of all places. I'm active on trekbbs.com (I'm Outpost4 over there) and I posted in the Original Series forum that I'd bought a Toshiba HD-A2 because of the sale and was now planning on buying the first season of Star Trek on HD-DVD. This rah-rah pro Blu-ray guy, who I've seen around the board, has jumped all over my thread and taken it over. It's awful.
> 
> I don't get it. This is more than Ford vs. Chevy. I never saw it with VHS vs. Beta. Even vinyl people aren't this radical. They own CDs, too. This is something different to me. It's much more like the loyalty of a college football fan but even then, the most ardent Ohio State supporter can admit his team might suffer a defeat. Not these guys. This fervor that is like that of Mac people. It's not a box; it's a religion. Which is really weird because these boxes are passive and have only been around for a year. What makes guys like Matt on trekbbs go ape$hit for a DVD player? It's crazy.


Worse than Coke vs Pepsi!!!

Grabbed my HD-A2 on the cheap from BB last week. Very happy w/ it.

Although I obviously want the "red" side to win the war, I have no desire to berate anyone over it.

AVS did get pretty nasty there over the weekend.

Did anyone catch that thedigitalbits.com was down for a couple of days (back up now). Supposedly (take it w/ a grain of salt), the Blu-leaning site was hacked by HDDVD geeks.

Stupid.

Still....90,000 and counting HDDVD players....don't you think that FOX and/or Disney will see this sales data and realize that there are A LOT of HD players out there whose owners they could be selling/reselling their HD wares to that they currently do not serve? Bound to be a lot more Toshibas sold btwn BF and XMAS.

Don't be surprised if one/both go neutral in '08. Who cares what BluRay fans/BDA/studio statements say. This is America! The $ rules!! And the merchants will follow the market demand. IF HDDVD players end up outnumbering even the PS3, the BD studios will end up neutral/switching sides. Except Sony, of course. They'll be the last to give in.

Disney is/was also a member of the HDDVD Forum--or as at least in on the early development of that format's HDi interactive functions--which, unlike BD, ACTUALLY WORKED OUT OF THE GATE!!!! (Ok...my one HDDVD "fanboy" statement. Done...I swear! )

Only thing BD can do now is come up with a sub-$200 BD player. Will that happen anytime soon? We shall see.


----------



## jutley

I hope Disney goes neutral soon. I told my wife she can't buy anymore Disney movies on standard DVD and we only have an HD-DVD player so far. I am trying to hold off purchasing a BD player for a few more months, but she's getting testy. :grin:


----------



## jwebb1970

jutley said:


> I hope Disney goes neutral soon. I told my wife she can't buy anymore Disney movies on standard DVD and we only have an HD-DVD player so far. I am trying to hold off purchasing a BD player for a few more months, but she's getting testy. :grin:


See above post. If the Tosh sales #'s continue at a major clip thru XMAS, Disney will realize that there's a whole mess of HD folks that they coul be selling/reselling their movies to.

Disney was also part of the preliminary development of HDDVD HDi interactive features. They pushed for interactivity on HDDVD.

They'll come around. Likely so will FOX.\

FWIW, SD DVDs from Disney (esp Pixar stuff) looks REALLY nice upconverted on a Tosh. Watched part of CARS and THE INCREDIBLES. Very nice pic, and will hold me over for now!


----------



## Carl Spock

DBS Commando said:


> There's too many BluRay fanboys who have nothing better to do than rant on the internet and play their shiny PS3's.


Hmmm...and HD-DVD threatens the use of their "joystick".

Maybe now I'm getting it. :grin:


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Disney is the one that really seems odd in the current scenario. Considering that a good part of Disney (yes, I know they do other things too) comes from the family-oriented movies... and a whole bunch of new families just went HD DVD because of the much cheaper players... it seems to me that Disney would want to be neutral until something wins out.

Of all the companies picking one side of the other... I would have bet Disney would have played both sides from the beginning. Even worse if they pick the losing side, but if they picked both sides they might double their movie sales.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I still think the only way to solve this dual format war is to make a player that plays both formats for less then 199.00.

Of course thats not going to happen now with the $99.00 HD DVD price tag.


----------



## HIPAR

The format war is heating up big time over at AVSForum. So hot the mods have shut down the blue laser 'discussions'.

I bought a HD-A3 at Best Buy with 10 free movies .. two in the box, three from store stock and five mail in. I watched 'Bourne Identity' from the box. It looks OK.

I also watched a standard wide screen DVD. It may look a bit better than my Samsung up-converting player but I'm not going to retire the Samsung because it has a feature called EZ Vu that allows me to fill my 16:9 screen. I couldn't find a way to do that with the HD player. Of course, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit from the sides of the picture to do that.

I'll rate the the A3 player seven stars out of ten based on initial impressions. That less than perfect rating won't make me any friends with the radical elements.

--- CHAS


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> Disney is the one that really seems odd in the current scenario. Considering that a good part of Disney (yes, I know they do other things too) comes from the family-oriented movies... and a whole bunch of new families just went HD DVD because of the much cheaper players... it seems to me that Disney would want to be neutral until something wins out.
> 
> Of all the companies picking one side of the other... I would have bet Disney would have played both sides from the beginning. Even worse if they pick the losing side, but if they picked both sides they might double their movie sales.


Yes, they are very family oriented - as in making big money off of families; even more reason for them to release in both formats!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Dual format players actually are more of a sign that the battle still rages onward. Dual format is only necessary if there is a lot of support for both formats. So I don't see how even a cheap dual format player ends anything.

Think about when DVD was getting popular, and there were some VHS/DVD combo players. That really was about trying to keep VHS in the picture because now that DVD has pretty much wiped out video cassettes in the home, there's no need for anyone to buy a combo unit.


----------



## koji68

Sony CEO Sees 'Stalemate' in Disc Fight

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iSSf4xA77eWwRXXF8SovYH6kRhRAD8SPU1BG0


----------



## Carl Spock

I just got the Video Essentials HD-DVD calibration disc in the mail today. Has anybody used this to set up a HDTV system before? I used the old standard definition disc in the past and found it useful.


----------



## Mike728

ggergm said:


> I just got the Video Essentials HD-DVD calibration disc in the mail today. Has anybody used this to set up a HDTV system before? I used the old standard definition disc in the past and found it useful.


I bought it a few months ago. It's still sealed in plastic. :grin:

One of these days I'll get around to using it.


----------



## jutley

Mike728 said:


> I bought it a few months ago. It's still sealed in plastic. :grin:
> 
> One of these days I'll get around to using it.


I have at least opened mine and put it in my A20 to see if it works. Someday I will calibrate as well.


----------



## Carl Spock

You guys inspire me to achieve greatness.


----------



## jutley

Yeah, I'm good like that. 

I would probably have been more inclined to calibrate right away if my setup didn't look good right out of the box, but to my eyes my set looks great.


----------



## machavez00

ggergm said:


> I just got the Video Essentials HD-DVD calibration disc in the mail today. Has anybody used this to set up a HDTV system before? I used the old standard definition disc in the past and found it useful.


I have The HD DVD DVE
I adjusted the color using the blue filter, the red looked correct, but the green did not (through the red and green filters). according to the manual this is an indication the color decoder is not working correctly. I call BB, and the service tech in turn called Samsung. Samsung said " we don't support DVE".


----------



## machavez00

*Rock on!*


----------



## jutley

Is that picture captured off of your Samsung?


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> Samsung said " we don't support DVE".


Did you ask them what they do support?

You should have just said that the color was off and gone from there.


----------



## machavez00

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Sony-CEO-Wishes-BluRay-had-Collaborated-with-HD-DVD-89353
Sony CEO Wishes Blu-Ray had Collaborated with HD DVD
Format wars haven't been good for anyone involved


----------



## machavez00

Mike728 said:


> Did you ask them what they do support?
> 
> You should have just said that the color was off and gone from there.


 I called BB and explained what I was doing and was using DVE to calibrate and according to manual color decoder needed attention. BB sent the tech out. BB Tech was at the house and said "it looks fine to me" He called Samsung...


----------



## AlbertZeroK

machavez00 said:


> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Sony-CEO-Wishes-BluRay-had-Collaborated-with-HD-DVD-89353
> Sony CEO Wishes Blu-Ray had Collaborated with HD DVD
> Format wars haven't been good for anyone involved


That's really funny. The format war has been good for consumers, it has driven down prices and will likely give us all kinds of deals for Christmas.

And the war isn't about bragging rights, it's about license fees and patient rights. In otherwords, it's about mail box money - money they make once their format wins that they really have to do nothing much for - let the vendors sell HD content using their sales teams and manufacturing and collect a % off the top. Kinda like the Mob.


----------



## GoLaLakers

AlbertZeroK said:


> That's really funny. The format war has been good for consumers, it has driven down prices and will likely give us all kinds of deals for Christmas.
> 
> And the war isn't about bragging rights, it's about license fees and patient rights. In otherwords, it's about mail box money - money they make once their format wins that they really have to do nothing much for - let the vendors sell HD content using their sales teams and manufacturing and collect a % off the top. Kinda like the Mob.


This is precisely what the format war is about. Royalities.

Every time you buy a standard DVD Player or DVD Disc, the group that developed the DVD gets a cut. I think it's about .03 cents per disc, and when DVD players first came out it was about $40 per player. This has come down now since you can get players for under $50. This is huge money, and Sony and Toshiba do not want to lose out on this future revenue.


----------



## machavez00

CC has the A3 for $199 w 2 in the box. There is also a buy 2 get 1 free sale on both formats discs


----------



## DCSholtis

Amazon just beat that deal. They have the A3 for $199 with 2 in the box, 3 others of your choice (Choice of movies that they pre select) + 5 by mail.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=330753901&pf_rd_i=B000U62N1S


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I almost did it last night. Amazon had the Toshiba HDA2 for $139... and I have a 1080i TV so I don't care about 1080p. At that price it's practically disposable. 

Almost... almost... couldn't do it. Someone else has to decide.


----------



## DCSholtis

The A3 also does only 1080i too but IF the Amazon deal where you get the 10 movies also applies to the A2.......You can't go wrong either way, Stuart.


----------



## jwebb1970

Stuart Sweet said:


> I almost did it last night. Amazon had the Toshiba HDA2 for $139... and I have a 1080i TV so I don't care about 1080p. At that price it's practically disposable.
> 
> Almost... almost... couldn't do it. Someone else has to decide.


Many say the A2 (which I own) is a tad better if you don't plan on using HDMI for audio. HDDVDs get a higher bit 5.1 DTS mix via optical out. Gotta be HDMI audio for DD+/TrueHD/whatever from HD DVDs. SD DVDs are whatever audio they're encoded with.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

jwebb1970 said:


> Many say the A2 (which I own) is a tad better if you don't plan on using HDMI for audio. HDDVDs get a higher bit 5.1 DTS mix via optical out. Gotta be HDMI audio for DD+/TrueHD/whatever from HD DVDs. SD DVDs are whatever audio they're encoded with.


Probably depends upon your sound setup and needs. The HD-A3 outputs Dolby Digital and DTS.

For SD DVDs in Dolby Digital, you get Dolby Digital. For SD DVDs in DTS, you get DTS.

I don't have any experience with the A2... but I gather for SD DVDs in Dolby Digital on the A2 it converted that to DTS. You may or may not get any quality difference with that conversion, but I gather lots of folks had receivers that were not DTS compatible and that's where/why the change was made for the A3.


----------



## Mike728

jwebb1970 said:


> Gotta be HDMI audio for DD+/TrueHD/whatever from HD DVDs.


Don't forget you need a receiver that supports those audio formats, too.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Please, please, please, I wish for every Jane Average to buy her husband Joe an HD DVD player for Christmas. Let's end this war here and now.


----------



## swans

DCSholtis said:


> Amazon just beat that deal. They have the A3 for $199 with 2 in the box, 3 others of your choice (Choice of movies that they pre select) + 5 by mail.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=330753901&pf_rd_i=B000U62N1S


It's actually only $197.22 with free shipping.


----------



## christo76

For anything under $200, with bonus free movies (i.e. in addition to the mail-in), the A3 is worth it. 

The A2 is definitely worth $130ish, even with just mail-ins. It outputs higher rate via optical, not that I will likely notice a difference. BUT it works great as an Upconverting dvd player. I spent over $100 on my Sammy upconvert, to find that my TV did just as good. The HDa2 does give a difference. From reviews I have seen it does as good as the Oppo upconverts that cost more.


----------



## jwebb1970

HDMe said:


> Probably depends upon your sound setup and needs. The HD-A3 outputs Dolby Digital and DTS.
> 
> For SD DVDs in Dolby Digital, you get Dolby Digital. For SD DVDs in DTS, you get DTS.
> 
> I don't have any experience with the A2... but I gather for SD DVDs in Dolby Digital on the A2 it converted that to DTS. You may or may not get any quality difference with that conversion, but I gather lots of folks had receivers that were not DTS compatible and that's where/why the change was made for the A3.


For regular DVDs, the A2 outputs whatever the DVD is encoded with/you select (DD/DTS) via HDMI & optical. Same as any DTS/DD-capable DVD player.

For the "newer" HD DVD audio types, however, you do need:

1) HDMI-equipped A/V receiver capable of DD+/DTS-HD/DolbyTrueHD/etc

2) A2 only sends these out via HDMI

3) Optical sends 1.5 Mbps DTS 5.1 from any/all HD DVDs. This of course requires that your optical-equipped A/V receiver can do DTS.

I run my A2 via HDMI (to TV-for video only) and optical to my DTS-capable receiver.


----------



## DCSholtis

swans said:


> It's actually only $197.22 with free shipping.


Yeah my Dad bought it for my sis this afternoon. Hell at that price you can't beat it. So what if she has to wait 5 months or more for the 5 free movies.  Well hell I just checked the price and it went down again in just those few hours. The A3 is now $150+.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well I did it... Toshiba HD-D3 (Costco HD-A3) has been bought. You all can feel free to buy Blu-Ray now, as I usually picked the wrong thing.


----------



## Lord Vader

Thanks! You've made my recent purchase of the new Panasonic BD30 Blu-Ray more defensible.


----------



## DCSholtis

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well I did it... Toshiba HD-D3 (Costco HD-A3) has been bought. You all can feel free to buy Blu-Ray now, as I usually picked the wrong thing.


How many movies did you get with it, Stuart? You did just fine I have that one too as well as a Blu-Ray player. You're next project will be running more cat5 and hooking up that new Tosh up to the net.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

DCSholtis said:


> How many movies did you get with it, Stuart? You did just fine I have that one too as well as a Blu-Ray player. You're next project will be running more cat5 and hooking up that new Tosh up to the net.


It came with 300 and Bourne Identity... the 5 available at Circuit City weren't interesting. However, Costco carries 4-packs of HDDVDs I do want to see for about $50 per 4-pack.

The network line is already in place as the HR20 and Slingbox necessitated a 4-porter at the TV.


----------



## DCSholtis

Enjoy then you're all set. Now you'll be addicted to building your library.  Keep an eye on this site as well as the forum area too:

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/


----------



## mssturgeon

Hi all,

We just published this today ... thought you might be interested:
Which is More Consumer Friendly: HD DVD or Blu-ray?

From the excerpt:
This article is not written in an attempt to convince anyone who has already made an investment one way or the other, for that is an almost impossible feat. It was written for those that are still "on the fence", as they say. It is for those who are either undecided, or are waiting to see which one will come out ahead (or which will be first to waive the white flag).

Enjoy,

- Shane Sturgeon


----------



## bdowell

mssturgeon said:


> Hi all,
> 
> We just published this today ... thought you might be interested:
> Which is More Consumer Friendly: HD DVD or Blu-ray?
> 
> From the excerpt:
> This article is not written in an attempt to convince anyone who has already made an investment one way or the other, for that is an almost impossible feat. It was written for those that are still "on the fence", as they say. It is for those who are either undecided, or are waiting to see which one will come out ahead (or which will be first to waive the white flag).
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> - Shane Sturgeon


Excellent article. I caught the news about it via e-mail subscription to your site and enjoyed the read a lot. Well reasoned and argued and I think dead on and absolutely right on every point made.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I read your article, Shane... very well done. Of course it likely won't convince anyone who's already made up his mind, but nonetheless it might help a few who are on the fence.


----------



## Lord Vader

And to think I just bought the Panasonic BD30 and a bunch of Blu-Ray DVDs.


----------



## elaclair

Just for counterpoint's sake, take a read of this article from someone who has close ties to the industry:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/soapbox/soap060107.html

The article is a few months old, but still pretty spot-on with the points made. And, just to add fuel to the discussion...here are the latest sales numbers...

TOTAL U.S. PLAYER SALES (8/24/07 - CEA): 133,443,356*
TOTAL CANADIAN PLAYER SALES (8/24/07): 13,344,335*
*Sales to dealers since 3/97. DVD/VCR combination players included, but not DVD-ROM drives & game systems.
TOTAL DVD TITLES (11/22/07 - DVD Release Report): 80,016*
*Net total of R1 DVD-Video discs released/announced. Discontinued & adult not included.
TOP 10 SELLING DISCS (11/18/07 - Nielsen/VideoScan):
1) Shrek the Third
2) Ratatouille
3) Ocean's Thirteen
4) Spider-Man 3
5) ...Chuck & Larry 
6) Transformers
7) Meet the Robinsons
8) Gilmore Girls: Season 7
9) Amazing Grace
10) Jungle Book: Platinum
TOP 10 RENTAL DISCS (11/18/07 - Home Media Research):
1) Shrek the Third
2) Ocean's Thirteen
3) ...Chuck & Larry
4) Spider-Man 3
5) Ratatouille
6) Deck the Halls
7) Transformers
8) Sicko
9) Amazing Grace
10) Mr. Brooks
TOTAL BLU-RAY DISC TITLES (11/23/07 - DVD Release Report): 358/55*
TOTAL HD-DVD TITLES (11/23/07 - DVD Release Report): 347/46*
*Net total of R1 discs released/announced. Discontinued & adult not included.
HIGH-DEF MARKET SHARE - BRD VS HD-DVD SOFTWARE SALES (11/18/07 - Nielsen/VideoScan):
Week End. 11/18
Blu-ray Disc: 66 HD-DVD: 34
Year to Date

Blu-ray Disc: 65 HD-DVD: 35
Since Inception

Blu-ray Disc: 61 HD-DVD: 39


----------



## Carl Spock

Lord Vader said:


> And to think I just bought the Panasonic BD30 and a bunch of Blu-Ray DVDs.


You must feel like a fool.

Seriously, despite Mr. Sturgeon's plea of neutrality, I found the article to be more than a little pro HD-DVD. And I say that as a HD-DVD owner. Where was the "Why Blu-ray?" section of the article? I must have missed it.

I have no complaints with the article's content. It seemed totally accurate. I even have no complaints with the article's tone. I do think saying that it cuts down the middle of this debate is a little disingenuous.


----------



## mssturgeon

ggergm said:


> despite Mr. Sturgeon's plea of neutrality, I found the article to be more than a little pro HD-DVD.


Plea of neutrality? Where? I think it is very clear that the article is pro-HD DVD. It's hard to write an article recommending HD DVD without it being pro-HD DVD. If my research had led the other direction, the article would have been written the other way around.

- Shane Sturgeon


----------



## Carl Spock

Shane -

My mistake and my apology. I misread your intention from the excerpt you quoted in your original post. I was expecting something different when I first read the article. I understand and respect your intent now.

- Gregg


----------



## mssturgeon

No worries Gregg. I've handled worse in the Blu-ray forums ;-)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I thought the article was balanced and free from the fanaticism I've seen in similar ones. It's just that Mr. Sturgeon found there was one preferable choice. I find the ones that say "you make up your mind" seem more fake.


----------



## elaclair

mssturgeon said:


> No worries Gregg. I've handled worse in the Blu-ray forums ;-)


This is very true, and kind of sad. And you get it from both camps. While I'm definitely pro-BD at this point, I'm not anti-HD. It's one thing to state "I'm for this...and this is why" vs. "You guys suck". But I guess that's the nature of the beast these days.

I thought the article was very well written, and omitted a lot of the hyperbole that can be found in the pro-HD-DVD forums. That I don't agree with it is exactly why we have this thread...to discuss the differences and why they are important to us.

Let's just not try to tear each other down in the process.......


----------



## FogCutter

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well I did it... Toshiba HD-D3 (Costco HD-A3) has been bought. You all can feel free to buy Blu-Ray now, as I usually picked the wrong thing.


Bought the Toshiba A2 for $98. HD DVD is DOOMED. I bought Beta after carefully studying VHS specs. Still have the player; the gears have fused over time.

To limit the damage I signed up for Netflix so I won't have boxes of unplayable discs five years from now.

At great personal pain I will refrain from buying a BluRay player, hence dooming BOTH formats. I hope Sony appreciates what I am doing. Figure I owe them one after the Beta thing.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

If you think you probably doomed the format by buying it... check out:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=110771


----------



## FogCutter

Stuart Sweet said:


> If you think you probably doomed the format by buying it... check out:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=110771


Impressive.

How do you feel about ethanol? -- for cars, not for drinking. Heh.

I'm all for it. If the car breaks I can drain the tank and have a party. I wonder if AAA will merge with AA if ethanol really catches on in a big way? AAAAA?

Early adopters are punished as much as they are rewarded. My strategy has become to forego the hot newest new and really enjoy the bargains as they present themselves.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think ethanol is a great idea if the same companies that built the oil pipelines build ethanol ones. At the moment it costs more energy to transport than it saves. 

My current thought is plug-in hybrid vehicles recharged by wind turbines and solar. Of course I do live in California where the environment is perfect for that.


----------



## Lord Vader

ggergm said:


> You must feel like a fool.


Actually, I don't. My OP was meant in jest.


----------



## gcisko

mssturgeon said:


> Hi all,
> 
> We just published this today ... thought you might be interested:
> Which is More Consumer Friendly: HD DVD or Blu-ray?
> 
> From the excerpt:
> This article is not written in an attempt to convince anyone who has already made an investment one way or the other, for that is an almost impossible feat. It was written for those that are still "on the fence", as they say. It is for those who are either undecided, or are waiting to see which one will come out ahead (or which will be first to waive the white flag).
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> - Shane Sturgeon


I just read the article. I will also note that I have a PS3 which a bought about a month ago. I notice much faster load times on my BD movies that I had with normal DVD. So I am surprised that the article claims the HD DVD load times are faster. Is that even true? Also I was not really sure what it was about HD DVD that made it better. There was a claim that the consumer should not have to worry if their bluray player had a feature or not. I disagree. You should be aware of your surroundings.

There were some very nice stats though. I was impressed with that. But I am still happy I got the PS3


----------



## Carl Spock

Lord Vader said:


> Actually, I don't. My OP was meant in jest.


I knew you were kidding, as was I. We are both too clever for our own good.


----------



## Carl Spock

elaclair said:


> Let's just not try to tear each other down in the process.......


I've experienced this myself. Over on TrekBBS I started a thread on the new Star Trek HD-DVDs, which look stunning BTW, and it quickly became dominated by a Blu-ray fanboy who came in with these made-up objections to HD-DVD and totally derailed my thread. Here I'm trying to express the joy of viewing the best version of Star Trek I've ever seen and all I get is a kid wanting to yell how Blu-ray is God. Totally took the fun out of it.

This probably makes me feel the worst about inaccurately busting mssturgeon's balls over this issue upthread. Oh well, this isn't the first time, nor will it be the last, that I've made an ass of myself on the Internet.

:nono2:


----------



## Lord Vader

ggergm said:


> I knew you were kidding, as was I. We are both too clever for our own good.


*Indeed.*


----------



## steinmeg

Nick said:


> In an effort to consolidate the plethora of news reports and press releases about the
> great HD DVD vs Blu-Ray battle, I am starting this thread. If you have news or views
> about the fight for hi-def format superiority, whether about disc sales or hardware
> news, please feel free to contribute to this thread.


LOS ANGELES, Nov. 27 /PRNewswire/ -- Following landmark Black Friday promotions through major retail chains, the North American HD DVD Promotional Group today announced that sales of dedicated HD DVD players exceeded the 750,000 mark. The data is based on retailer reports and other point of sale data, and includes standalone set-top players as well as the Xbox 360 HD DVD player.

"HD DVD continues to gain momentum and market share with consumers," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment, and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. "With more than four weeks left for holiday shopping, HD DVD is turning out to be a perfect consumer electronics gift."

HD DVD continues to step up marketing and education efforts, helping consumers to see the quality and value of the new format. In addition to an enhanced presence at major retailers, HD DVD has added educational sections to its website at http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-27-2007/0004711631&EDATE=


----------



## gcisko

ggergm said:


> I've experienced this myself. Over on TrekBBS I started a thread on the new Star Trek HD-DVDs, which look stunning BTW, and it quickly became dominated by a Blu-ray fanboy who came in with these made-up objections to HD-DVD and totally derailed my thread. Here I'm trying to express the joy of viewing the best version of Star Trek I've ever seen and all I get is a kid wanting to yell how Blu-ray is God. Totally took the fun out of it.
> 
> This probably makes me feel the worst about inaccurately busting mssturgeon's balls over this issue upthread. Oh well, this isn't the first time, nor will it be the last, that I've made an ass of myself on the Internet.
> 
> :nono2:


Are you talking movies or TOS????


----------



## mssturgeon

gcisko said:


> I am surprised that the article claims the HD DVD load times are faster. Is that even true?


The load time comparison I made was not HD DVD vs. Blu-ray. It was comparing load times of media with encryption vs. without.

- Shane Sturgeon


----------



## Snoofie

gcisko said:


> Are you talking movies or TOS????


TOS Season 1 just came out on HD DVD. No plans for any of the movies yet.


----------



## elaclair

steinmeg said:


> LOS ANGELES, Nov. 27 /PRNewswire/ -- Following landmark Black Friday promotions through major retail chains, the North American HD DVD Promotional Group today announced that sales of dedicated HD DVD players exceeded the 750,000 mark. The data is based on retailer reports and other point of sale data, and includes standalone set-top players as well as the Xbox 360 HD DVD player.
> 
> "HD DVD continues to gain momentum and market share with consumers," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment, and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. "With more than four weeks left for holiday shopping, HD DVD is turning out to be a perfect consumer electronics gift."
> 
> HD DVD continues to step up marketing and education efforts, helping consumers to see the quality and value of the new format. In addition to an enhanced presence at major retailers, HD DVD has added educational sections to its website at http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/.
> http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-27-2007/0004711631&EDATE=


The sales numbers are out for Black Friday...here's a snippet from Bill Hunt over at Digital Bits...

" The overall DVD sales slowdown aside, it seems that Black Friday software sales were brisk. Home Media is reporting that Black Friday DVD sales this year were up 6% from last year. On the high-def front, however, software sales for the Blu-ray Disc format dominated those of HD-DVD on the biggest shopping day of the year. According to Nielsen VideoScan First Alert numbers, for the week of 11/19 to 11/25 (Monday to Sunday), Blu-ray held a commanding 72.6% share of high-def software sales compared to HD-DVD's 27.4% That's very nearly a 3 to 1 margin, and it comes in spite of a strong surge in HD-DVD player sales in the wake of Toshiba's recent discounting. Industry insiders are reporting a surge in Blu-ray Disc player sales as well, however, also in the wake of recent price reductions. Particularly strong are sales of Sony's Blu-ray ready PlayStation 3, which have reportedly increased nearly 300% according to online reports.

Meanwhile, Reuters and Gamespot UK are reporting that Blu-ray's software sales edge has now extended to Europe, in addition to existing leads in the U.S., Japan and Australia. From the Gamespot story: "According to Media Control Gfk International, 73 percent of next-generation movies bought by European consumers were on Blu-ray, and 27 percent on HD DVD." "

Check out the entire article at http://www.digitalbits.com/#mytwocents


----------



## FogCutter

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think ethanol is a great idea if the same companies that built the oil pipelines build ethanol ones. At the moment it costs more energy to transport than it saves.
> 
> My current thought is plug-in hybrid vehicles recharged by wind turbines and solar. Of course I do live in California where the environment is perfect for that.


I have a gas hyrbid and will buy another. For the next 10 years a plug-in version would make perfect sense -- drive until the batteries die then kick to gas for extended range.

Ethanol from grain is at best a push even without transport issues. Cellulose based might be better but it is too soon to tell. Using organic waste would be great but no one is talking about. My guess is that there are some big issues. Municipal sewage seems like a natural, but I wouldn't want to work in the plant. Talk about sh*tty jobs.

I really don't see an ethanol pipeline happening, and the ethanol boom is already coming unglued. It will be very evident this time next year.

Can you buy E85 in your area? The closest pump to me is 100 miles away.


----------



## FogCutter

Oh, just ordered a Samsung BluRay player to go with my Toshiba. Now both formats are DOOMED.


----------



## Chris Blount

I have both formats (Toshiba A1 and PS3). While I purchase and enjoy both there is still something about Blu-Ray that bugs me. Can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's because it's Sony? Don't really know for sure. 

It's really a shame that the format war has happened. Consumer are already confused enough. I'm actually thinking of not buying any more discs on both formats and using DirecTV's excellent lineup of HD channels to watch movies. It seems it's only a matter of time when movies in my collection show up in HD on DirecTV.

I rented a few of the new Star Trek HD-DVD's from Netflix and popped one in last night. Wow! The old series looks fantastic in HD. It's like it was filmed yesterday. Paramount did a great job.


----------



## elaclair

Chris Blount said:


> It's really a shame that the format war has happened. Consumer are already confused enough. *I'm actually thinking of not buying any more discs on both formats* and using DirecTV's excellent lineup of HD channels to watch movies. It seems it's only a matter of time when movies in my collection show up in HD on DirecTV.


Chris,

This seems to be the concensus...and not just for HD discs. Those that keep track of sales numbers all seem to mention that consumers have slowed and/or stopped buying ANY dvds while waiting for the format war to end. I know it's certainly affected me. I would, in any given month, buy around 10 DVDs. Now, while in wait for a clear winner, even though I'm pretty sure it will be Blu-Ray, I only buy one or two every other month.


----------



## Lord Vader

Does anyone have _The Italian Job _ in BD or HD? I got it in blu-Ray but was very disappointed in its quality. In the beginning especially, during the early scenes where they steal the safe full of gold and are below the building, the picture is horribly grainy and continues this way for some time. Other Blu-Ray DVds I have don't have this problem, so I doubt it's my player (Panasonic DMP-BD30). When I got a replacement disc, the same crappy PQ was present. I just sent that back and said forget it but was wondering if anyone else has this movie and has noticed anything like this in it.


----------



## mssturgeon

I have the HD DVD version. I'll pop it in this weekend and let you know what I see.

- Shane


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I just ordered it as part of the 5 free promotion for buying an HD DVD player. I'll let you know in 8-10 weeks


----------



## Lord Vader

Pay attention to the scenes I mentioned, particularly when the background is dark. For example, when they're on the river in Venice at building basement level, the PQ is grainy, especially when the background is darkest--and I mean noticeably grainy. I also noticed lines and other such annoying distractions. This was the same on both BD copies I had--the one I bought and the one that replaced it. Fortunately, I was able to get a full refund on both.


----------



## ccr1958

has anyone actually bought or seen an HD_DVD 
that is 1080p....i have bought & rented a few &
all output 1080i....not a big deal really but just
wonder if any 1080p stuff is out there

yes i have the output set for "up to 1080p"


----------



## elaclair

ccr1958 said:


> has anyone actually bought or seen an HD_DVD
> that is 1080p....i have bought & rented a few &
> all output 1080i....not a big deal really but just
> wonder if any 1080p stuff is out there
> 
> yes i have the output set for "up to 1080p"


ALL the HD-DVD discs I've looked at were 1080p . I went back and looked at some reviews of HD-DVD disks over at Digital Bits, and all the ones they've reviewed were 1080p as well.


----------



## elaclair

Lord Vader said:


> Pay attention to the scenes I mentioned, particularly when the background is dark. For example, when they're on the river in Venice at building basement level, the PQ is grainy, especially when the background is darkest--and I mean noticeably grainy. I also noticed lines and other such annoying distractions. This was the same on both BD copies I had--the one I bought and the one that replaced it. Fortunately, I was able to get a full refund on both.


May or may not be relevant, but I noticed that as well on my SD version of The Italian Job. Seemed to clear up about 20 minutes in to the movie. Maybe the master is bad? Though you would think they would have cleaned it up for the HD release......


----------



## ccr1958

elaclair said:


> ALL the HD-DVD discs I've looked at were 1080p . I went back and looked at some reviews of HD-DVD disks over at Digital Bits, and all the ones they've reviewed were 1080p as well.


ok thanks....wonder why when i hit display on the
HD-DVD remote it says output is 1080i....maybe i will
call toshiba & see what the deal is


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Check the menus in the Toshiba and make sure the output res is set to 1080p, that's my suggestion.


----------



## ccr1958

ccr1958 said:


> has anyone actually bought or seen an HD_DVD
> that is 1080p....i have bought & rented a few &
> all output 1080i....not a big deal really but just
> wonder if any 1080p stuff is out there
> 
> yes i have the output set for "up to 1080p"


i do have


----------



## DCSholtis

Stuart Sweet said:


> I just ordered it as part of the 5 free promotion for buying an HD DVD player. I'll let you know in 8-10 weeks


Not to burst your bubble but......People in another forum I go to for Blu Ray/HD DVD info say that the 8-10 week window is now about 4 months.....


----------



## machavez00

I bought mine on Oct 3rd and mine came Monday. I took: :"The Thing", "The Italian Job", "Full Metal Jacket", Black Rain", and "U2, Rattle and Hum"


----------



## Drew2k

I submitted my "free-5" form a few weeks ago - it would be great to have them within the original 8 week time frame. That would put me right up at Christmas, when I'm on vacation and can actually sit down and enjoy them! 

By the way, did all you HD-DVD owners remember to install the latest player update? It came out last week ...


----------



## Rich

Your Lordship, Have you ever tried a Sony upscaler? Is the picture on the BR that much better? Does the upscaler on the BR work as well as the Sony?

By the way, Costco had the Sony BR for $377 the other day.



Lord Vader said:


> Does anyone have _The Italian Job _ in BD or HD? I got it in blu-Ray but was very disappointed in its quality. In the beginning especially, during the early scenes where they steal the safe full of gold and are below the building, the picture is horribly grainy and continues this way for some time. Other Blu-Ray DVds I have don't have this problem, so I doubt it's my player (Panasonic DMP-BD30). When I got a replacement disc, the same crappy PQ was present. I just sent that back and said forget it but was wondering if anyone else has this movie and has noticed anything like this in it.


----------



## Lord Vader

I'm not familiar with the upscaler to which you allude. Regardless, there should be no need for such a device with the BD30.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

DCSholtis said:


> Not to burst your bubble but......People in another forum I go to for Blu Ray/HD DVD info say that the 8-10 week window is now about 4 months.....


Do not fret about my bubble. To be honest I'm in no rush to see any of the five movies I picked, it was more like, someone's offering me something so I'll get it. If they come in July it gives me something to do in the summer. If they never come, "somehow I'll survive."


----------



## Lord Vader

Indeed, let's stay away from Stu's bubble butt.


----------



## elaclair

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed, let's stay away from Stu's bubble butt.


Okay, now I know I'm one sick puppy....I just flashed on an image of a disc protruding from.........oh never mind. :nono2:


----------



## elaclair

DCSholtis said:


> Not to burst your bubble but......People in another forum I go to for Blu Ray/HD DVD info say that the 8-10 week window is now about 4 months.....


Timing is everything...and I missed it, but did anyone get to take advantage of the "unannounced in-store special" at Wal-Mart last Saturday? Buy a new 80gig Playstation3 and get an instant in-store 10 free Blu-Ray movie deal....and still get the 5 movies coupon to add to it?

I went to 6 WallyWorlds and missed in three of them by just minutes.......(sigh)


----------



## FogCutter

*WalMart is Satan.* That's why the deals are so dam*ed good. I would have bought that one for sure.


----------



## jutley

I'm afraid I would have too...and then my boss (wife) would not have been very pleased with me.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

elaclair said:


> Timing is everything...and I missed it, but did anyone get to take advantage of the "unannounced in-store special" at Wal-Mart last Saturday? Buy a new 80gig Playstation3 and get an instant in-store 10 free Blu-Ray movie deal....and still get the 5 movies coupon to add to it?
> 
> I went to 6 WallyWorlds and missed in three of them by just minutes.......(sigh)


Yes. My walmart still had them Sunday night.

I was the first to get one at 8:05 Saturday and I got 10% off because my wife works at wal-mart.


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> I'm not familiar with the upscaler to which you allude. Regardless, there should be no need for such a device with the BD30.


I was looking for a comparison between the BR and a Sony upscaling DVD player regarding PQ on standard wide screen DVDs. I really don't intend to plunk down a small fortune for another recording medium. But if the BR upscales better than the Sony, I might purchase one. I have an lot of standard DVDs. And the Sony produces a picture that almost equals the live HD PQ and is about the same as the HR20 PQ.

So, your Lordship, or anyone else, can you answer this question?


----------



## Lord Vader

Well, my Panny BD30 only cost me $499 at CC, less a 10% coupon I had.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

elaclair said:


> Okay, now I know I'm one sick puppy....I just flashed on an image of a disc protruding from.........oh never mind. :nono2:


You boys have an interesting sense of humor.


----------



## Hound

ccr1958 said:


> ok thanks....wonder why when i hit display on the
> HD-DVD remote it says output is 1080i....maybe i will
> call toshiba & see what the deal is


The problem may be that the Toshiba HD-DVD only outputs 1080P at 24 MH and
your TV only displays 1080P at say 60 MH. I had this problem with the LG100
multi player hooked up to my Panasonic plasma. The multi player only outputs
1080P at 24. The Panasonic plasma only outputs 1080P at 60. So I bought a
Panasonic BD30K which outputs 1080P at 24 or 60. The difference in PQ is
amazing. I just finished watching Prison Break first season in Blu Ray 1080P.
Now when I watch FOX or ABC live, the difference between 1080P and 720P is
very noticeable. I am now using the LG multiplayer on a TV that is only 1080i.

I am going to hold off on buying a stand alone HD DVD player until one comes
on the market that outputs 1080P at 24/60.


----------



## Lord Vader

I bought the Panny BD30 as well, but unfortunately, as advanced as my Samsung HLT6189S HDTV is, it won't support 24p. Therefore, my BD30 won't output that.


----------



## ccr1958

Hound said:


> The problem may be that the Toshiba HD-DVD only outputs 1080P at 24 MH and
> your TV only displays 1080P at say 60 MH. I had this problem with the LG100
> multi player hooked up to my Panasonic plasma. The multi player only outputs
> 1080P at 24. The Panasonic plasma only outputs 1080P at 60. So I bought a
> Panasonic BD30K which outputs 1080P at 24 or 60. The difference in PQ is
> amazing. I just finished watching Prison Break first season in Blu Ray 1080P.
> Now when I watch FOX or ABC live, the difference between 1080P and 720P is
> very noticeable. I am now using the LG multiplayer on a TV that is only 1080i.
> 
> I am going to hold off on buying a stand alone HD DVD player until one comes
> on the market that outputs 1080P at 24/60.


Thanks for answering this(you answered better than i would have)
....after doing a lot of reading & research via
Google i found this is exactly what is going on with my setup....i have 
1 spare lamp for the Toshiba DLP & when the one in use now & then the spare
goes bad i am upgrading HDTV to something more compatible with the newer
features of HD...don't get me wrong the HD-DVD as is now looks great but if i 
can get true 1080p/24 then that has got to be better & the prices for 60" plasma
displays capable of this are right about half of what they were....


----------



## Hound

ccr1958 said:


> Thanks for answering this(you answered better than i would have)
> ....after doing a lot of reading & research via
> Google i found this is exactly what is going on with my setup....i have
> 1 spare lamp for the Toshiba DLP & when the one in use now & then the spare
> goes bad i am upgrading HDTV to something more compatible with the newer
> features of HD...don't get me wrong the HD-DVD as is now looks great but if i
> can get true 1080p/24 then that has got to be better & the prices for 60" plasma
> displays capable of this are right about half of what they were....


The true 1080P is amazing on a show like Prison Break when you are used to
watching FOX in 720P. Well worth an upgrade to a 60" plasma compatible with
your 1080P/24 HD DVD player.


----------



## Rich

Great info. Thanx. Clear and easy to understand. Well written!

Rich



Hound said:


> The problem may be that the Toshiba HD-DVD only outputs 1080P at 24 MH and
> your TV only displays 1080P at say 60 MH. I had this problem with the LG100
> multi player hooked up to my Panasonic plasma. The multi player only outputs
> 1080P at 24. The Panasonic plasma only outputs 1080P at 60. So I bought a
> Panasonic BD30K which outputs 1080P at 24 or 60. The difference in PQ is
> amazing. I just finished watching Prison Break first season in Blu Ray 1080P.
> Now when I watch FOX or ABC live, the difference between 1080P and 720P is
> very noticeable. I am now using the LG multiplayer on a TV that is only 1080i.
> 
> I am going to hold off on buying a stand alone HD DVD player until one comes
> on the market that outputs 1080P at 24/60.


----------



## Rich

Stuart Sweet said:


> You boys have an interesting sense of humor.


You should spend four or five years in the Navy. Everybody that was dumb enough to tell us he was taking leave to get married, left our destroyer covered in hickeys. 40 years ago and it still cracks me up every time I think of it.

Rich


----------



## Carl Spock

:lol:

It gets_ lonely _in the middle of the ocean.


----------



## elaclair

rich584 said:


> You should spend four or five years in the Navy. Everybody that was dumb enough to tell us he was taking leave to get married, left our destroyer covered in hickeys. 40 years ago and it still cracks me up every time I think of it.
> 
> Rich


LOL Now that brings back memories. The sub I was on had a "tradition". There's this substance called Prussian Blue that we used for staining pipes to look for cracks. If it got on your skin, it basically had to wear off. Soooo, anytime someone made the mistake of letting us know their marriage was imminent, had their genitalia "blued" for the honeymoon.......


----------



## jutley

elaclair said:


> LOL Now that brings back memories. The sub I was on had a "tradition". There's this substance called Prussian Blue that we used for staining pipes to look for cracks. If it got on your skin, it basically had to wear off. Soooo, anytime someone made the mistake of letting us know their marriage was imminent, had their genitalia "blued" for the honeymoon.......


Hopefully for the receiving sailor it wasn't too painful.


----------



## Sirshagg

elaclair said:


> LOL Now that brings back memories. The sub I was on had a "tradition". There's this substance called Prussian Blue that we used for staining pipes to look for cracks. If it got on your skin, it basically had to wear off. Soooo, anytime someone made the mistake of letting us know their marriage was imminent, had their genitalia "blued" for the honeymoon.......


Now that's funny!!!


----------



## FogCutter

In grad school we used methelyne blue to much the same effect. We stayed clear of the genitals but painted choice comments on the torso and legs of the happy groom. Nice way to top off the bachelor party.

One time we added the step of putting the stoned groom onto a train headed across the country. He woke up six states away still outbound. The funny thing was that when he called his bride at the next stop she chewed him out so soundly that he just kept heading west rather than take the next eastbound train. He was back in time for the wedding.


----------



## Carl Spock

elaclair said:


> Soooo, anytime someone made the mistake of letting us know their marriage was imminent, had their genitalia "blued" for the honeymoon.......


Stupid me. And I thought it was called Blu-ray because of the laser. :sure:


----------



## Rich

elaclair said:


> LOL Now that brings back memories. The sub I was on had a "tradition". There's this substance called Prussian Blue that we used for staining pipes to look for cracks. If it got on your skin, it basically had to wear off. Soooo, anytime someone made the mistake of letting us know their marriage was imminent, had their genitalia "blued" for the honeymoon.......


Oh that's good! A lot of us felt funny giving a grown man hickeys. And we always did it after they took showers. Yukky, but so funny. The only problem I see with blueing the "boys" is that the whole wedding party couldn't see it. But I laughed my buttocks off when I read your post. Thanx for the chuckle!

Rich


----------



## Rich

ggergm said:


> :lol:
> 
> It gets_ lonely _in the middle of the ocean.


'Specially at Xmas and Thanxgiving. But, somebody has to do it. Where would we be without our Navy?


----------



## Chris Blount

Back on topic please.


----------



## Rich

jutley said:


> Hopefully for the receiving sailor it wasn't too painful.


You would not believe how easy it is to hold down a large man with 15-20 sailors.
The blueing probably wasn't painful, but the battle prior to it or the hickey festival was something to see. Especially in a small space.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Chris Blount said:


> Back on topic please.


OK.


----------



## elaclair

Chris Blount said:


> Back on topic please.


Aww Chris, at least mine had "blue" in it.......


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well Gizmodo has posted their "State of HDDVD" to compliment their "State of Blu-Ray" piece, and they're more complimentary to HDDVD, saying there's a more consistent experience and they sort of make it seem like there's some tension in the Blu-Ray camp. They also say that there's a better chance that the Chinese will come in with a flood of HDDVD players.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/the-state-of-hd-dvd/the-state-of-hd-dvd-330684.php


----------



## phat78boy

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well Gizmodo has posted their "State of HDDVD" to compliment their "State of Blu-Ray" piece, and they're more complimentary to HDDVD, saying there's a more consistent experience and they sort of make it seem like there's some tension in the Blu-Ray camp. They also say that there's a better chance that the Chinese will come in with a flood of HDDVD players.
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/the-state-of-hd-dvd/the-state-of-hd-dvd-330684.php


This seems to have always been the case for me personally. It never seemed like Blu-Ray was on the same page with everyone doing something different with their implentation of their player. Imagine a general consumer purchasing a Blu-Ray movie and then trying to decipher which extras will work with which players.

Besides every HD DVD player being able to do everything, I really like the fact they have double disks available. That way it will work on every player in the house. Even the PS3, dvd only of course. lol


----------



## Stuart Sweet

If the HDDVD folks really want market penetration, they will price the combo disks only $1-2 more than the regular DVD. I bet people would buy them "just in case".

I know that this would involve subsidies to the studios or whatever, but that's just business and someone can figure out how to do it.


----------



## chrpai

I bought my A2 from VE when it dropped to $199. Now I've noticed a Samsung BD-P1400 @ Amazon for $299. 

I think that's cheap enough for me to go neutral. ( I'm a cheapskate that only rents from Netflix and having double the selection would be nice ).

I've not really followed the blu-ray debates too much. I'm wondering about the BD final specs, v1, v1.1, missing features whatever.

Bottom line question: IYHO, Is it a good time to buy or keep waiting? ( I can be very patient. )


----------



## BubblePuppy

chrpai said:


> I bought my A2 from VE when it dropped to $199. Now I've noticed a Samsung BD-P1400 @ Amazon for $299.
> 
> I think that's cheap enough for me to go neutral. ( I'm a cheapskate that only rents from Netflix and having double the selection would be nice ).
> 
> I've not really followed the blu-ray debates too much. I'm wondering about the BD final specs, v1, v1.1, missing features whatever.
> 
> Bottom line question: IYHO, Is it a good time to buy or keep waiting? ( I can be very patient. )


I bought the BD-P1400 a week ago and I had to return it because the pause didn't work. When it was put on pause and then taken off pause the player would start at the very beginning of the disc. Very frustrating. I updated the firmware and it still did the same thing. I called Samsung tech and he told me it was a defective player and to return it. 
I decided to go for the Sony at the same cost. The Sony has been performing flawlessly.

I will say that after the firmware the Samsung loaded very quickly. Before the firmware upgrade it loaded very slowly.
The Sony loads slower than the Samsung (after firmware upgrade).
You can upgrade the Samsung firmware by downloading the upgrade via cd but the Sony will only upgrade by downloading to a DVD which I didn't have any success with. Now I am waiting for my Sony upgrade disc to arrive in the mail..ten working days and yet I haven't had any issues with my Sony.

The Sony I bought is :BDP-S300 for $399.

BTW: The Samsung tech rep told me that alot of people that bought the Pirates 3 Bluray have had alot of problems with it and he was surprised that I was able to even watch it.
Go figure.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

BubblePuppy said:


> The Sony I bought is :BDP-S300 for $399.
> 
> BTW: The Samsung tech rep told me that alot of people that bought the Pirates 3 Bluray have had alot of problems with it and he was surprised that I was able to even watch it.
> Go figure.


This is why I like having a PS3. Since it is by far the most popular Blu-Ray player, it is likely the one they put the most effort into ensuring it's working correctly. That is also something I like about the Toshiba HD players - very popular - very well supported.

And no, I had no issues with Pirates 3 either here.


----------



## BubblePuppy

AlbertZeroK said:


> This is why I like having a PS3. Since it is by far the most popular Blu-Ray player, it is likely the one they put the most effort into ensuring it's working correctly. That is also something I like about the Toshiba HD players - very popular - very well supported.
> 
> And no, I had no issues with Pirates 3 either here.


My first Blu-Ray purchase was the PS3. This was based on all the BR posts on this site however I am not a gamer.
I got the PS3 home and because of the "hump" it would not fit in my cabinet, it would have to sit outside on the floor.
First strike.
The second and deciding factor was that the remote is Blue Tooth and I couldn't program it into my Harmony remote.
I just didn't want a game contoller around just to watch BT dvd.
Just my preference.

Of course the Samsung BT player and the Sony BT player has to sit on the floor. First strike against both of them, but my Harmony remote will control them.
So it is the Sony model.


----------



## elaclair

BubblePuppy said:


> BTW: The Samsung tech rep told me that alot of people that bought the Pirates 3 Bluray have had alot of problems with it and he was surprised that I was able to even watch it.
> Go figure.


I would be curious where the Samsung rep got his information. To date, according to Disney, there have been very few reported problems with the Pirates3 disc, those being limited to a certain combination of PS3 players with 1080p displays running in 1080p/24 mode. The immediate workaround is to set the player to 1080i. Disney expects the problem to be corrected shortly with a firmware update.

If you are having a problem with the Pirates3 disc, you can call Customer Service number (1-800-723-4763) .


----------



## BubblePuppy

BubblePuppy said:


> My first Blu-Ray purchase was the PS3. This was based on all the BR posts on this site however I am not a gamer.
> I got the PS3 home and because of the "hump" it would not fit in my cabinet, it would have to sit outside on the floor.
> First strike.
> The second and deciding factor was that the remote is Blue Tooth and I couldn't program it into my Harmony remote.
> I just didn't want a game contoller around just to watch BT dvd.
> Just my preference.
> 
> Of course the Samsung BT player and the Sony BT player has to sit on the floor. First strike against both of them, but my Harmony remote will control them.
> So it is the Sony model.
> I didn't have an issue with P3. I did have an issue with the Samsung paues.
> Just went with the Sony.
> All were priced at $399.0.


----------



## sigma1914

I'm now Format Neutral, I just ordered the Samsung BD-P1400 Blu-Ray to sit on my Toshiba A2 HD-DVD.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

ok, sigma1914, so you've got both. What format would you rather buy? Would you go on a disc by disc basis, weighing quality vs. features, just grab whatever, or do you have a strategy?


----------



## smiddy

I just notied this thread, which now has 477 messages counting this one. I haven't read it from start to finish, sorry. 

Mrs. Smiddy would like to wait to see who the clear winner is in order to make a final decision on the Smiddy's components. She doesn't see a clear winner yet.

I am leaning towards Blu Ray due to the viability of archival space as a dual use on a PC. Pricing isn't an issue in this regard for me. There are more avialable Blu Ray burners as of this writing, however, HP has a couple of systems sporting a dual use HD DVD player and Blu Ray burner (much like the LG drive that was available, but not any longer) which looks attractive for a HTPC, which would do both on one system and be our Media Server combined...

Can someone point me to a HD DVD burner out there? Perhaps I'm missing where they are. Is there a legal issue with why they aren't available (at least to my limited view)?

Thanks for indulging me in advance.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't think there's a legal reason that there are no burners, but I do know that they just finalized a triple layer HDDVD spec so maybe the manufacturers were waiting for that. 

If it's archivin' yer after, I'd wait a little bit because the media might not be stable yet. I got burned (no pun intended) with early CD writing, now I'm cautious.


----------



## brian188

I haven't read this tread from the beginning either, But I can say I have both as well, Toshiba A-30 and Sony BDP-S300. For me it is hands down the Sony Blueray. Only time I'd buy HDDVD is if it's not available on Blueray. Maybe its because my TV is Sony, maybe not. HD does have some features the BD doesn't, but I'm all about PQ, and the IMO the BD has it.


----------



## elaclair

smiddy said:


> I just notied this thread, which now has 477 messages counting this one. I haven't read it from start to finish, sorry.
> 
> Mrs. Smiddy would like to wait to see who the clear winner is in order to make a final decision on the Smiddy's components. She doesn't see a clear winner yet.
> 
> I am leaning towards Blu Ray due to the viability of archival space as a dual use on a PC. Pricing isn't an issue in this regard for me. There are more avialable Blu Ray burners as of this writing, however, HP has a couple of systems sporting a dual use HD DVD player and Blu Ray burner (much like the LG drive that was available, but not any longer) which looks attractive for a HTPC, which would do both on one system and be our Media Server combined...
> 
> Can someone point me to a HD DVD burner out there? Perhaps I'm missing where they are. Is there a legal issue with why they aren't available (at least to my limited view)?
> 
> Thanks for indulging me in advance.


If one of your considerations is data storage, then this is one area where Blu-Ray is the definite choice. The data transfer rate is much higher on Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD. One other data storage advantage that Blu-Ray has are the disc coatings...the Blu-Ray media is much more scratch resistant than the HD-DVD.

Neither of the above have much impact as far as home media (movies) is concerned, but is something to keep in mind.


----------



## sigma1914

Stuart Sweet said:


> ok, sigma1914, so you've got both. What format would you rather buy? Would you go on a disc by disc basis, weighing quality vs. features, just grab whatever, or do you have a strategy?


Well, my BR isn't here, yet. I've eyed both at a friends & see zero difference. I just preferred a high def picture, regardless.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Do all of you have enough inputs for all this stuff, (2 DVD players + DVR's) or are you having to buy HDMI switchers?


----------



## FogCutter

sigma1914 said:


> I'm now Format Neutral, I just ordered the Samsung BD-P1400 Blu-Ray to sit on my Toshiba A2 HD-DVD.


My Samsung is going back I'm afraid. Before wrapping it for Christmas I decided to test it -- refused to play 300 so I tried to upgrade the firmware. Remote is dead. Can't progress with the firmware upgrade without a working remote.

Oh, FYI -- buy.com will not issue credit for open merchandise, even DOA items. But they do pay return shipping. We'll see if the next one works.


----------



## brian188

theratpatrol said:


> Do all of you have enough inputs for all this stuff, (2 DVD players + DVR's) or are you having to buy HDMI switchers?


Yes, Sony XBR4 - 3 HDMI inputs, 2 Component, 3 Video. BD, HDDVD, HR20 all HDMI, DVD component, one open component. 1 VCR video, 1 PS2 Video, 1 open video.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

No. But I do have an OPPO HDMI Switch. Pricey, but VERY stable - I use it to switch my A3, Sony 400 Disk dvd changer and my Playstation.


----------



## sigma1914

theratpatrol said:


> Do all of you have enough inputs for all this stuff, (2 DVD players + DVR's) or are you having to buy HDMI switchers?


I actually bought this switcher because I needed a 3rd HDMI:
Switcher
It's manual, but it will rarely be used because my BR will share it with my SIR QAM tuner that's rarely used.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

AlbertZeroK said:


> No. But I do have an OPPO HDMI Switch. Pricey, but VERY stable - I use it to switch my A3, Sony 400 Disk dvd changer and my Playstation.


Which OPPO do you have? I see one on there for $99.00. I'd like to get one that has Toslink out too.

Thanks


----------



## Chris Blount

I couldn't stand it any longer. I've had the Toshiba A1 since they first came out and a PS3. Yeserday I ordered the Toshiba A35 with the 10 free HD-DVD deal from Amazon. Just too good to pass up for $340. The A35 is a great replacement for the A1 since it has the 5.1 analog outputs.

I have been format neutral for over a year and I must admit that I'm impressed by both formats. What we really need is an affordable dual format player which will solve the problem for all consumers who wish to dive in.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well the way it's going you may be right, but the player needs to be reasonably priced. If consumers can get an HD DVD for $199 and a Blu-ray for $299 they are not going to pay $999 for a combo. Granted the low priced players lack features but it's still too hard of a sell.


----------



## Carl Spock

theratpatrol said:


> AlbertZeroK said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. But I do have an OPPO HDMI Switch. Pricey, but VERY stable - I use it to switch my A3, Sony 400 Disk dvd changer and my Playstation.
> 
> 
> 
> Which OPPO do you have? I see one on there for $99.00. I'd like to get one that has Toslink out too.
> 
> Thanks
Click to expand...

As a guy who's been looking for a HDMI to Toslink breakout box, you won't find one for less than a couple of hundred dollars. At least I haven't. You'd be better to get a second switcher that switches S/PDIF for that need. Those can be had for cheap.

I also think that $100 is not real pricey, especially for a switcher rated for HDMI 1.3a. Any cheaper HDMI switcher that at least I've seen doesn't have that certification.


----------



## Hound

theratpatrol said:


> Do all of you have enough inputs for all this stuff, (2 DVD players + DVR's) or are you having to buy HDMI switchers?


My Panasonic TH65PX600U has three HDMI inputs and two component inputs.
BD30 Blu Ray Player, Verizon Fios DVR, Dish 622, Sony HDD500, Comcast Motorola
HD box, and VCR into the coax input.

My older system NEC 61XM2A/S is an analog component video system and I use
a four component video in, two component video out Radio Shack switch and
a McIntosh A/V Preamp MX 134 with two component inputs. LG BH100, Verizon
Fios DVR, Dish 722, Sony HDD500, Comcast Motorola HD Box, Sony RDR HX-715,
JVC DVHS, McIntosh MVP851, and a VCR.


----------



## Rich

brian188 said:


> Maybe its because my TV is Sony, maybe not. HD does have some features the BD doesn't, but I'm all about PQ, and the IMO the BD has it.


Maybe it is because Toshiba makes crappy equipment. Ever buy a Toshiba TV? I did and have regretted it ever since. Ever buy anything else and try to get tech support? I had to show the Toshiba tech how to use the DVD upscaler. Ever buy a Toshiba VCR? Terrible. The absolute worst VCR I ever tried. And I tried most of them. I can't believe that people even consider buying Toshiba products or technology they have developed. Sony, on the other hand, is one of the industry leaders. I'd much rather pay more for a Blu Ray than a Toshiba. If I won one or one fell off the back of a truck, I'd have it on eBay in a heartbeat.

Rich


----------



## Carl Spock

Funny, I own a Toshiba VCR that I even had rebuilt a few years ago (a standard belts and capstan refurb, replacing the rubber parts) because after ten years of use, it finally wore out. It is made of metal and I wanted it instead of the plastic VCRs now sold by everyone, including Sony and Toshiba. That old Toshiba VCR still works fine, has a phenominal picture in the SLP mode and is irreplaceable to me.

I also like Sony. I've owned too many Sony TVs and Betamaxes over the years to say anything bad about them except for the $1,200 VHS Hi-Fi machine I bought before the Toshiba was a POS. I should have know better than to buy a Sony VHS back then. A Beta, fine, but not a VHS.

My Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD player works flawlessly. I will buy a Sony Blu-ray player when they get cheap enough.

Nobody makes perfect stuff, Rich, and no Japanese company that's still in business makes crap.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Used to be a huge Sony fan until I owned one of their TVs about 10 years ago. It was a lemon out of the box, it had a curved ghost on the left side which was quite visible when playing a DVD. It was too heavy for me to carry back to the store so I lived with it. It then got a green corner about 2 years later and no amount of degaussing would fix it.


----------



## FogCutter

Chris Blount said:


> I have been format neutral for over a year and I must admit that I'm impressed by both formats. What we really need is an affordable dual format player which will solve the problem for all consumers who wish to dive in.


I am impressed, too. We can argue and posit and pick sides ad nauseum, but when it comes to watching movies, both formats are just plain impressive. And the surround sound, any of the new formats is so much better than Dolby Digital.

Beyond that, these new players do an amazing job of upconverting, on really good DVDs it's hard to see much difference with HD. It 's there, but the old disks are enjoyable.

Life is good.


----------



## Rich

ggergm said:


> Funny, I own a Toshiba VCR that I even had rebuilt a few years ago (a standard belts and capstan refurb, replacing the rubber parts) because after ten years of use, it finally wore out. It is made of metal and I wanted it instead of the plastic VCRs now sold by everyone, including Sony and Toshiba. That old Toshiba VCR still works fine, has a phenominal picture in the SLP mode and is irreplaceable to me.


Figured someone would reply like that. I know some people dislike things that other people love. I've just had really bad experiences with Toshiba and Panasonic over the years. The three Panasonic plasmas that I purchased this year have changed my opinion of Panasonic in regards to quality. Still continue to have problems with Toshiba.



> I also like Sony. I've owned too many Sony TVs and Beta-maxes over the years to say anything bad about them except for the $1,200 VHS Hi-Fi machine I bought before the Toshiba was a POS. I should have know better than to buy a Sony VHS back then. A Beta, fine, but not a VHS.


I had a Beta-max, sold it to a friend and bought a Panasonic that had a corded remote. Strike one for Panasonic. The PQ was terrible on the Panasonic compared to the BM. Stupid move on my part.

But just before I started using DVRs, I had ten or eleven Sony VHS recorders in the house going day and night. In the end, after losing the war to JVC and dropping the BM format, Sony was making the VCR that produced the best picture. Didn't do all the things a Mitsubishi could do, but had a better picture and a better user interface and OS.

Surprised me, when I bought the first Sony VHS, didn't expect much and was shocked to see how good the PQ was. And with a VCR that's what matters the most. The PQ. They were prone to breaking down and you know how expensive the repairs were.



> My Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD player works flawlessly. I will buy a Sony Blu-ray player when they get cheap enough.


I am going to send you a PM about the above.



> Nobody makes perfect stuff, Rich, and no Japanese company that's still in business makes crap.


You have to understand the way I think. I equate most situations in life to baseball. Since I was 6 years old, I've been playing, coaching and managing. One player on every team is the best ball player and one is the worst and you can rank the rest of the players between them. One Japanese company (Sony or Panasonic) is the best and one is the worst (Toshiba or whoever). Just my opinion, I'm not trying to force that on anyone. I know I look with great interest at critical postings and base some purchases on them.


----------



## Kenkong586

Hound said:


> My Panasonic TH65PX600U has three HDMI inputs and two component inputs.
> BD30 Blu Ray Player, Verizon Fios DVR, Dish 622, Sony HDD500, Comcast Motorola
> HD box, and VCR into the coax input.
> 
> My older system NEC 61XM2A/S is an analog component video system and I use
> a four component video in, two component video out Radio Shack switch and
> a McIntosh A/V Preamp MX 134 with two component inputs. LG BH100, Verizon
> Fios DVR, Dish 722, Sony HDD500, Comcast Motorola HD Box, Sony RDR HX-715,
> JVC DVHS, McIntosh MVP851, and a VCR.


I just have to ask why you have all of those television subscriptions. You are my hero.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

rich584 said:


> You have to understand the way I think. I equate most situations in life to baseball. Since I was 6 years old, I've been playing, coaching and managing. One player on every team is the best ball player and one is the worst and you can rank the rest of the players between them. One Japanese company (Sony or Panasonic) is the best and one is the worst (Toshiba or whoever). Just my opinion, I'm not trying to force that on anyone. I know I look with great interest at critical postings and base some purchases on them.


Well put, Rich. As George Carlin said, somewhere in the world, is the worst doctor. And someone has an appointment with him tomorrow morning. It irks me when everything in a category is considered "above average".


----------



## machavez00

I won't buy a blue ray player until the profile is finalized and a reasonably priced stand alone/dual player hits the market.


----------



## Lord Vader

Have you guys heard the latest news? I read it on Swanni's site along with some other Internet news site: in the newly released Warner Bros. Harry Potter 5-disc Blu-Ray collection, DVD #4, the Goblet of Fire, they inadvertently shipped an HD DVD and not a Blu-Ray one, rendering this disc unusable, of course, for those who do not have a dual-format or HD DVD player. Worse, Warner Bros. indicated they have no plans to exchange this disc right now for a Blu-Ray one.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, Darth, I guess you'll have to either buy an HD DVD player or send that disc to me :lol:


----------



## Carl Spock

Warners has no plans right now because they haven't figured out who to fire first.

They'll have to end up exchanging the disc. They won't have any option.

Wow, what a







-up!


----------



## Lord Vader

I'll know for sure if this affected everyone who ordered the set as soon as I receive mine. I ordered it through Amazon and it's presently in transit.

On a side note: am I alone in HATING Parcel Post via the USPS? Amazon's Super Saver Shipping, which is free, always uses Parcel Post, which is USPS 4th class. It takes forever to get something via that method. I've often wondered if packages just sit in a warehouse for days, not going anywhere, before they're finally grabbed by the deliveryman on his way to his route. Well, I spoke to my mailman recently just to see how that worked, and he admitted that yes, Parcel Post packages are sent by the shipper then arrive in a separate processing facility for packages only and actually and literally _*do*_ sit on a shelf for 3, 4, days or more, doing nothing, before they're then sent to the recipient's post office and grabbed by the actual mailman. Where it can take 2-3 days to get a package sent First Class or Priority Mail, it could take this _*same*_ package *7-14 *days to deliver.

What a crock!


----------



## Drew2k

You get what you pay for? 

Just saying ...


----------



## Hound

Kenkong586 said:


> I just have to ask why you have all of those television subscriptions. You are my hero.


Basically for HD sports. With Comcast Sportsnet Phila only on Comcast or
Verizon, cable is a must. I made Verizon Fios my main TV service on all of my
TVs in the house, but I added E* to pick up NBA LP with HD games,
NHL CI with HD games, VS/Golf HD, BTN HD, NBA TV HD, NHL Network HD. I have
Comcast basic service for MLB EI with the MLB HD channel. For a while this year,
I only had one service. I will re evaluate again in the spring. Maybe add D* for
MSG HD, FSNY HD, MLB EI with HD games, NHL CI with HD games, NBA LP with
HD games, NBA TV HD, BTN HD and NHL Network HD, and drop Comcast and E*.
Fios said that they are adding more HD sports channels this year and will have 
150 HD channels. So I am waiting to see what happens.


----------



## DCSholtis

Lord Vader said:


> I'll know for sure if this affected everyone who ordered the set as soon as I receive mine. I ordered it through Amazon and it's presently in transit.
> 
> On a side note: am I alone in HATING Parcel Post via the USPS? Amazon's Super Saver Shipping, which is free, always uses Parcel Post, which is USPS 4th class. It takes forever to get something via that method. I've often wondered if packages just sit in a warehouse for days, not going anywhere, before they're finally grabbed by the deliveryman on his way to his route. Well, I spoke to my mailman recently just to see how that worked, and he admitted that yes, Parcel Post packages are sent by the shipper then arrive in a separate processing facility for packages only and actually and literally _*do*_ sit on a shelf for 3, 4, days or more, doing nothing, before they're then sent to the recipient's post office and grabbed by the actual mailman. Where it can take 2-3 days to get a package sent First Class or Priority Mail, it could take this _*same*_ package *7-14 *days to deliver.
> 
> What a crock!


Amazon Prime is the only way to go.....


----------



## Cholly

Hmmm ... I ordered Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (HD DVD) on the 12th from Amazon, with Super Saver delivery. Estimated delivery date was Dec. 18th, and it was just delivered (2 p.m., Dec. 14th!).
Since we already had widescreen versions of all the other Potter movies, I didn't order the box set.


----------



## pete4192

DCSholtis said:


> Amazon Prime is the only way to go.....


Agree...100%. Free 2 day shipping!


----------



## jutley

DCSholtis said:


> Amazon Prime is the only way to go.....


Amen...

I subscribed earlier this year when I was ordering an AV receiver. The shipping was going to be $53 so I figured the $79 to subscribe to Prime was a no brainer. Since then we have done much more shopping on Amazon than we had previously since the 2 day shipping is free with Prime. It has been a great deal for us.

Sorry to thread jack...back on topic now.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Lord Vader said:


> I'll know for sure if this affected everyone who ordered the set as soon as I receive mine. I ordered it through Amazon and it's presently in transit.
> 
> On a side note: am I alone in HATING Parcel Post via the USPS? Amazon's Super Saver Shipping, which is free, always uses Parcel Post, which is USPS 4th class. It takes forever to get something via that method. I've often wondered if packages just sit in a warehouse for days, not going anywhere, before they're finally grabbed by the deliveryman on his way to his route. Well, I spoke to my mailman recently just to see how that worked, and he admitted that yes, Parcel Post packages are sent by the shipper then arrive in a separate processing facility for packages only and actually and literally _*do*_ sit on a shelf for 3, 4, days or more, doing nothing, before they're then sent to the recipient's post office and grabbed by the actual mailman. Where it can take 2-3 days to get a package sent First Class or Priority Mail, it could take this _*same*_ package *7-14 *days to deliver.
> 
> What a crock!


This is essentially the same thing that Fedex does. The way I understand it, every package gets fairly close to its final destination overnight. It then sits until delivery time.


----------



## Chris Blount

DCSholtis said:


> Amazon Prime is the only way to go.....


Totally agree! Almost every single order via 2 day free shipping has arrived on schedule. The best $79 I've spent all year.

Received my Toshiba A-35 earlier this week. Seems to work fine. The upconoversion from SD-DVD is amazing. Better than the A-1 and PS3.


----------



## Lord Vader

DCSholtis said:


> Amazon Prime is the only way to go.....


In all fairness, I use the Super Saver Free Shipping when I really don't need something right away; otherwise, I use the regular shipping, which is via First Class USPS or via UPS and isn't that costly anyway.


----------



## Lord Vader

Stuart Sweet said:


> This is essentially the same thing that Fedex does. The way I understand it, every package gets fairly close to its final destination overnight. It then sits until delivery time.


I don't think FedEx does that, Stu. I use FedEx Ground and FedEx Home Delivery when I ship stuff. It's faster than UPS and a bit cheaper. In fact, I am very happy with FedEx Ground and Home Delivery.

FedEx Express, of course, is always timely.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't mean to imply that Fedex holds on to things for unnecessarily long periods, but I do mean to say that they introduce lag into their lower priced deliveries that does not strictly need to be there. I read where they discovered it made more economic sense to have one method for getting parcels to the local office than many. 

I too find them an excellent operation, and unlike parcel post, they are usually accurate in their estimated delivery dates. Same with UPS. They both serve me quite well.


----------



## Lord Vader

I've never experienced any kind of lag with them. In fact, they've been consistently quicker than UPS in their delivery times, which is one reason why I use their Ground and Home Delivery Service (Ground is for business and Home Delivery for, obviously, residential service).


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok, lets get back on topic... :backtotop


----------



## emathis

BubblePuppy said:


> ... the Sony will only upgrade by downloading to a DVD ....


I just bought a Sony BDP-S300 and I upgraded the firmware using a CD, in fact Nero Burning Rom insisted that the ISO file needed a blank CD (it popped out the DVD-R that I had in the burner). Also the upgrade took a much shorter time than the manual said it would. And yes I double checked in the setup menu and it now says the version is 3.3.


----------



## machavez00

I received a 2.7 T23 firmware update disk from Toshiba Saturday. I had already updated it via the Ethernet connection.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Yeah, PS3 went Profile 1.1 with the 2.10 firmware update released Monday night. Looks like the week for updates all over!


----------



## Cholly

I was in Sam's club today and spotted a Sony BDP-S301 Blu-ray Disc player for $277. I just went on Sony's web site to see what the spec's might be, but it wasn't listed. However, the BDP-S300 was listed at a new MSRP of $299.95, a $100 price drop. Seems as though Sony is getting serious about the format war.


----------



## Lord Vader

Anyone know if the Harry Potter collection can output Dolby True HD? On the 5 disc set I got, all I can get is DD5.1. I've got a Panasonic BD30 Blu-Ray, and it plays other movies in True HD--those that have this, of course--but the Potter movies only show DD5.1.


----------



## Cholly

Lord Vader said:


> Anyone know if the Harry Potter collection can output Dolby True HD? On the 5 disc set I got, all I can get is DD5.1. I've got a Panasonic BD30 Blu-Ray, and it plays other movies in True HD--those that have this, of course--but the Potter movies only show DD5.1.


According to High-Def Digest's review, the Blu-ray Disc version is Dolby Digital 5.1 surround. The HD-DVD version is Dolby True HD.
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/992/harrypotteryears.html


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> Anyone know if the Harry Potter collection can output Dolby True HD? On the 5 disc set I got, all I can get is DD5.1. I've got a Panasonic BD30 Blu-Ray, and it plays other movies in True HD--those that have this, of course--but the Potter movies only show DD5.1.


Ignorance overwhelms and humbles me. What is "True HD"? As opposed to 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1.

Rich


----------



## Cholly

The number of manufacturing defects on Blu-ray Disc titles continues to grow. See the news section on this link: http://www.highdefdigest.com/


----------



## Lord Vader

rich584 said:


> Ignorance overwhelms and humbles me. What is "True HD"? As opposed to 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1.
> 
> Rich
> 
> p.s. How DO Siths reproduce?


There is a huge difference between DD5.1 and Dolby True HD.


----------



## Lord Vader

Cholly said:


> According to High-Def Digest's review, the Blu-ray Disc version is Dolby Digital 5.1 surround. The HD-DVD version is Dolby True HD.
> http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/992/harrypotteryears.html


Figures. Fortunately, however, if one chooses PCM on the disc's menu, then one will be able to get the audio in lossless quality, which is better than traditional DD5.1.


----------



## FogCutter

rich584 said:


> Ignorance overwhelms and humbles me. What is "True HD"? As opposed to 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1.
> 
> Rich


Others have touched on it already, but True HD is one of the new surround standards that are coming along with both formats of HiDef DVD. To make them go, either you need a DVD player with an internal decoder and a DVD recorded in that format with a receiver that takes PCM and passes it through, OR you need a player that will pass the new format along to a new receiver that decodes and sends it out to the speakers.

Confused yet? I sure am.

I tabled the new receiver for a couple of years until all of these standards calm down a bit.

Every HD-DVD I've played has yet another standard called Dolby Digital Plus that gets along with DD decoders, and I am very impressed. A TOS cable feeds it, and the sonic resolution, spacial focus, and 3-D soundstage are wonderful. It even sounds good, too.

My guess is True-HD and the other lossless compressions are kind of gilding the lilly. Especially for the rear channels, will there really be a benefit from 24 bit 192K lossless compression compared to a well engineered DD or DD Plus?

I'll have to hear it to believe it.


----------



## chris0

rich584 said:


> Ignorance overwhelms and humbles me. What is "True HD"? As opposed to 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1.


When a movie is made there's a master audio track that is the one played when you see it in the theater. In the past, because DVDs couldn't hold a lot of data (compared to HD DVD and BluRay) the soundtrack had to be compressed using "lossy" compression. "Lossy" means that some sound would be lost in the compression. Lossy codecs include Dolby Digital, DTS and DD+.

Uncompressed PCM is the exact reproduction of the master audio track, uncompressed. So when a disc has it it's just like what you heard in the theaters. BluRay discs have a lot of space on them so many of them have uncompressed PCM.

True HD and DTS HD MA are "lossless" comressions of the PCM. Think of them like a Zip file. Once they're uncompressed, or unzipped, they're exactly the same as PCM. If a disc is short on space, simply because of the size of the movie or because of the amount of extras on a disc, the studio will use one of these.

It shouldn't make a difference if the "unzipping" is done in the player or in the receiver. If you have an older receiver that accepts PCM over an HDMI input and a player that internally decodes True HD or DTS HD MA then you're all good. Right now, though, no player internally decodes DTS HD MA.

5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 are a separate thing. They're the number of channels (speakers) used in the soundtrack. The .1 is the subwoofer.


----------



## Rich

Thanx, I knew someone would come up with a lucid explanation other than "they exist". Well said.



chris0 said:


> When a movie is made there's a master audio track that is the one played when you see it in the theater. In the past, because DVDs couldn't hold a lot of data (compared to HD DVD and BluRay) the soundtrack had to be compressed using "lossy" compression. "Lossy" means that some sound would be lost in the compression. Lossy codecs include Dolby Digital, DTS and DD+.
> 
> Uncompressed PCM is the exact reproduction of the master audio track, uncompressed. So when a disc has it it's just like what you heard in the theaters. BluRay discs have a lot of space on them so many of them have uncompressed PCM.
> 
> True HD and DTS HD MA are "lossless" comressions of the PCM. Think of them like a Zip file. Once they're uncompressed, or unzipped, they're exactly the same as PCM. If a disc is short on space, simply because of the size of the movie or because of the amount of extras on a disc, the studio will use one of these.
> 
> It shouldn't make a difference if the "unzipping" is done in the player or in the receiver. If you have an older receiver that accepts PCM over an HDMI input and a player that internally decodes True HD or DTS HD MA then you're all good. Right now, though, no player internally decodes DTS HD MA.





> 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 are a separate thing. They're the number of channels (speakers) used in the soundtrack. The .1 is the subwoofer.


I knew that. I didn't know if they played a part in True HD.

Rich


----------



## Drew2k

rich584 said:


> We've been disagreeing a lot lately, Drew. Noticed that?
> 
> Rich


:lol: Actually, no, I hadn't, but please don't think I'm disagreeing with you there! :lol:

If we have had disagreements, I hope I have not in any way implied there was something personal going on, as I almost always focus on the posts I'm responding to, and not on the posters. (There are exceptions of course, but those people have made it to my ignore list - currently 1 member I think!)

Happy holidays!

Drew


----------



## machavez00

does anyone know, or can find out, if the what profile the Sony BDP300/301 is. I saw it at Sam's for $277. 1.0 is a definite no go.


----------



## chris0

machavez00 said:


> does anyone know, or can find out, if the what profile the Sony BDP300/301 is. I saw it at Sam's for $277. 1.0 is a definite no go.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=860948
That's the owner's thread over at AVSForums. I'm sure one of them will know.


----------



## elaclair

machavez00 said:


> does anyone know, or can find out, if the what profile the Sony BDP300/301 is. I saw it at Sam's for $277. 1.0 is a definite no go.


Even if the one you buy is at 1.0, the update to 1.1 has been released so you can always update it.

Interesting avatar by the way.....


----------



## DCSholtis

machavez00 said:


> does anyone know, or can find out, if the what profile the Sony BDP300/301 is. I saw it at Sam's for $277. 1.0 is a definite no go.


I have this one, machavez00 its profile 1.0.


----------



## Dr_J

I don't know if this has been posted already (didn't find it using Search), but I found it an interesting read:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2007/11/which_is_more_consumer_friendly_hd_dvd_or_blu-ray.php


----------



## Cholly

Dr_J said:


> I don't know if this has been posted already (didn't find it using Search), but I found it an interesting read:
> 
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2007/11/which_is_more_consumer_friendly_hd_dvd_or_blu-ray.php


Post #394, this forum.
It gave rise to some rather emotional discussion. Blu-ray vs. HD DVD tends to do that. Now that Blu-ray Disc players are available for under $300 the lead for that format will increase at a greater rate, despite the fact that a higher percentage of Blu-ray Discs are trouble prone, and second generation (ver. 1.1) players other than the PS3 are only now beginning to hit the market. With Sony, Disney and Fox being Blu-ray only, that format has more family appeal and therefore stands a better chance at winning the format war, regardless of technology.


----------



## Steve Mehs

Well after all the Best Buy Gift Cards I got this year for Christmas, this weekend I'm going to join the 21st century. Sony BDP-S500 here I come!


----------



## Lord Vader

If I could convince you to instead get the Panasonic DMP-BD30, you WON'T be disappointed. It blows away any other Blu-Ray player out there. I'm a big Sony fan and almost went with the BDP-500, but after much researching and soul-searching, I opted for the DMP-BD30 and am greatly satisfied that I did.


----------



## machavez00

elaclair said:


> Even if the one you buy is at 1.0, the update to 1.1 has been released so you can always update it.
> 
> Interesting avatar by the way.....


I have read that the PS3 is the only player that can be upgraded to profile 1.1 from 1.0


----------



## phat78boy

Cholly said:


> Post #394, this forum.
> It gave rise to some rather emotional discussion. Blu-ray vs. HD DVD tends to do that. Now that Blu-ray Disc players are available for under $300 the lead for that format will increase at a greater rate, despite the fact that a higher percentage of Blu-ray Discs are trouble prone, and second generation (ver. 1.1) players other than the PS3 are only now beginning to hit the market. With Sony, Disney and Fox being Blu-ray only, that format has more family appeal and therefore stands a better chance at winning the format war, regardless of technology.


While this sounds good to a US audience, what wins in the US will not decide what wins. Worldwide consumption will be the true measure stick of what will ultimately win out. China will be a very large factor in this.

All that said, you can easily find any title you want in either format. This is much nicer with HD-DVD as there is no regional lockdown. Once again I think Sony could have really ended this before it started. Once again they shoot themselves in the foot with lockdowns that are over bearing and standards that are optional. Just look at everyone above asking if this Blu-ray player has this profile or can do that option. No confusion with HD-DVD.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

phat78boy said:


> China will be a very large factor in this.


That being said, I believe I read that China's internal DVD format "CH-DVD" is hardware compatible with HD-DVD, meaning that it would be very easy for Chinese manufacturers to change from CH-DVD to HD-DVD production very quickly.


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> That being said, I believe I read that China's internal DVD format "CH-DVD" is hardware compatible with HD-DVD, meaning that it would be very easy for Chinese manufacturers to change from CH-DVD to HD-DVD production very quickly.


But then, one has to ask what good a $100 HD-DVD player will be if the software is not there. Over the past few weeks Blu-Ray has been out-selling HD-DVD by over a 3 to 1 margin, and over 60/40 since inception (in spite of starting almost a year later)

Don't remember whether it was post Black-Friday, or the week before, but Blu-Ray hardware sales had surpassed HD-DVD hardware sales worldwide.

And then of course there's demographics to consider.....the people most-interested in inexpensive players, will most likely have kids....and kids will invariable want Disney..... Haven't seen hard numbers for that, so it's anecdotal at this point, but it was a MAJOR factor for Buena Vista getting in to the DVD market originally.

As for regional locks....uh, we already have that on standard DVDs, and it certainly didn't (doesn't?) seem to be much of a factor in sales.....


----------



## jutley

phat78boy said:


> ...All that said, you can easily find any title you want in either format. This is much nicer with HD-DVD as there is no regional lockdown...


Where are you buying yours from?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

elaclair said:


> And then of course there's demographics to consider.....the people most-interested in inexpensive players, will most likely have kids....and kids will invariable want Disney..... Haven't seen hard numbers for that, so it's anecdotal at this point, but it was a MAJOR factor for Buena Vista getting in to the DVD market originally.


I don't in any way disagree with you, but given that kids aren't really quality conscious, and that regular DVDs play fine in next-gen players, is that really the primary consideration? I'll grant you, if there were features in the Blu-Ray versions that kids really wanted, and those features weren't on the DVD version, it might make a difference.

That Disney chose Blu-Ray... a real coup for the format I agree. The persistent $200+ difference in the cost of the two players is what keeps coming back to me.

I'm getting more and more suspicious that the war will never be "over" any more than the war between DVD+R and DVD-R will be. Combo players will be cheap and common.


----------



## Steve Mehs

Lord Vader said:


> If I could convince you to instead get the Panasonic DMP-BD30, you WON'T be disappointed. It blows away any other Blu-Ray player out there. I'm a big Sony fan and almost went with the BDP-500, but after much researching and soul-searching, I opted for the DMP-BD30 and am greatly satisfied that I did.


What are the selling points of the Panasonic? Two years ago I spent $2200 on a Sony 720p HDTV and last year I spent $800 on a Sony HT receiver that does not do anything above normal Dolby Digital 7.1 or DTS, so I don't need anything over the top, I just want to join the next generation and put a tally up there for Blu Ray.


----------



## phat78boy

Stuart Sweet said:


> That being said, I believe I read that China's internal DVD format "CH-DVD" is hardware compatible with HD-DVD, meaning that it would be very easy for Chinese manufacturers to change from CH-DVD to HD-DVD production very quickly.


This is correct. Supposedly the CH-DVD players will play HD-DVD disk by simply changing the firmware. Walmart, and other discount retailers, are rumored to have consistent sub 100$ HD-DVD players this year. These will be off brand, like say colby, but 100$ is that magic price point for many electronics.


----------



## phat78boy

jutley said:


> Where are you buying yours from?


Mostly Amazon.


----------



## phat78boy

elaclair said:


> But then, one has to ask what good a $100 HD-DVD player will be if the software is not there. Over the past few weeks Blu-Ray has been out-selling HD-DVD by over a 3 to 1 margin, and over 60/40 since inception (in spite of starting almost a year later)
> 
> Don't remember whether it was post Black-Friday, or the week before, but Blu-Ray hardware sales had surpassed HD-DVD hardware sales worldwide.
> 
> And then of course there's demographics to consider.....the people most-interested in inexpensive players, will most likely have kids....and kids will invariable want Disney..... Haven't seen hard numbers for that, so it's anecdotal at this point, but it was a MAJOR factor for Buena Vista getting in to the DVD market originally.
> 
> As for regional locks....uh, we already have that on standard DVDs, and it certainly didn't (doesn't?) seem to be much of a factor in sales.....


While sales margin could be looked at as who is winning and who is losing, I don't see it that way. I see it as very good title release dates. When Transformers came out, HD-DVD out sold Blu-Ray 3:1 for like a month. This month as been Blu-Ray's big titles month. If there is nothing new to buy for HD-DVD, of course Blu-Ray will outsell it.

As for regional locks on standard DVD's, there is nothing to compare it to. We have only one DVD solution at the moment and all titles are released on DVD now. Much different then our current situation. While I won't say that being unlocked will "win the war", I will say HD-DVD could simply ship movies anywhere it wanted with a click of a button. Blu-Ray would have to re-encode/re-region its movies which would take much more time.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

A couple of things to keep in mind when talking about numbers...

Blu ray has had more sales thus far than HD, so even though both have roughly the same amount of available titles (roughly 400-425 in each format) people have been "buying" Blu ray faster because of sales. Eventually, though, the cap gets hit as people have bought all they want, so things level out after HD DVD has had some media sales like they have started lately.

But the MOST IMPORTANT thing... Blu ray + HD DVD is still less than 5% (maybe less than 3%) of the entertainment market. So even a 5:1 advantage means very little at this point and could dramatically swing the other direction. The biggest sales numbers for any title we have seen are probably around 150,000... whereas blockbuster DVD releases are measured in 5-10 million copies sold!

And lastly... IF Disney and FOX and Sony really and truly wanted to "win" the format war... this could happen if they would release more of their available movies in the format. The fact that none of the big studios are really rushing to release Blu ray OR HD DVD movies compared to their SD counterpart releases... says to me that neither side is truly that committed just yet.


----------



## Cholly

Stuart Sweet said:


> That Disney chose Blu-Ray... a real coup for the format I agree. The persistent $200+ difference in the cost of the two players is what keeps coming back to me.
> 
> I'm getting more and more suspicious that the war will never be "over" any more than the war between DVD+R and DVD-R will be. Combo players will be cheap and common.


There isn't too much of a price difference between the players of the two formats, now that Sony and Samsung have dropped prices on at least one model to $299.

With the price of two standalone players now at/under $600, it's easy to choose the standalones rather than a combo.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'll wait. I'm still angry enough at the two camps for their stupidity for repeating history.

When I consider the complete investment I'll make in media and player, I'll let the market settle first.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Tom you are an extremely wise man. I believe much of the market agrees with you. For my part I found $174 was not a terribly high price for a player, and should I end up on the losing end, I feel like I'll be ok having bought combo discs to at least keep some of my investment intact.


----------



## Lord Vader

Steve Mehs said:


> What are the selling points of the Panasonic? Two years ago I spent $2200 on a Sony 720p HDTV and last year I spent $800 on a Sony HT receiver that does not do anything above normal Dolby Digital 7.1 or DTS, so I don't need anything over the top, I just want to join the next generation and put a tally up there for Blu Ray.


Steve,

Perhaps the best thing to do is check out this thread in our sister forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=936144

The price of this model has come down, too. IMHO, after doing a lot of research and asking questions of those who bought this and/or other models, I believe this is the single best Blu-Ray player out there (at least for those under a thousand bucks).


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't in any way disagree with you, but given that kids aren't really quality conscious, and that regular DVDs play fine in next-gen players, is that really the primary consideration?


Stuart,

Let me give myself a real big "Duh" on that one. I believe you are absolutely correct...that demographic probably wouldn't care whether the title was Hi-Def or not, just that it would play.


----------



## elaclair

phat78boy said:


> While sales margin could be looked at as who is winning and who is losing, I don't see it that way. I see it as very good title release dates. When Transformers came out, HD-DVD out sold Blu-Ray 3:1 for like a month. This month as been Blu-Ray's big titles month. If there is nothing new to buy for HD-DVD, of course Blu-Ray will outsell it.


I was curious about that, so I went back and checked the Nielson sales numbers for the week ending Oct 21 (the week Transformers came out) and according to their sales numbers, Blu-Ray still outsold HD-DVD even though Blu-Ray had no new titles released. Transformers WAS the number one individual title for that week, but there were too many Blu-Ray titles still selling in good numbers. The remaining nine titles of the Top 10 for that week were all Blu-Ray.


----------



## Chris Blount

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm getting more and more suspicious that the war will never be "over" any more than the war between DVD+R and DVD-R will be. Combo players will be cheap and common.


I am willing to bet that this will happen. Combo players will become the norm ending the "format war".


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> Tom you are an extremely wise man. I believe much of the market agrees with you. For my part I found $174 was not a terribly high price for a player, and should I end up on the losing end, I feel like I'll be ok having bought combo discs to at least keep some of my investment intact.


You and Tom have hit the nail on the head, there have been several articles written, with sales numbers to back them up that not only are people sitting on the sidelines waiting for a winner, they are also not buying ANY DVDs while they're waiting (this would include myself also....I ain't buyin' until I know it's over). I'll try and find links to the articles, all the one's I've read so far on the "sit and wait" mentality have been pretty spot-on.


----------



## phat78boy

HDMe said:


> A couple of things to keep in mind when talking about numbers...
> 
> Blu ray has had more sales thus far than HD, so even though both have roughly the same amount of available titles (roughly 400-425 in each format) people have been "buying" Blu ray faster because of sales. Eventually, though, the cap gets hit as people have bought all they want, so things level out after HD DVD has had some media sales like they have started lately.
> 
> But the MOST IMPORTANT thing... Blu ray + HD DVD is still less than 5% (maybe less than 3%) of the entertainment market. So even a 5:1 advantage means very little at this point and could dramatically swing the other direction. The biggest sales numbers for any title we have seen are probably around 150,000... whereas blockbuster DVD releases are measured in 5-10 million copies sold!
> 
> And lastly... IF Disney and FOX and Sony really and truly wanted to "win" the format war... this could happen if they would release more of their available movies in the format. The fact that none of the big studios are really rushing to release Blu ray OR HD DVD movies compared to their SD counterpart releases... says to me that neither side is truly that committed just yet.


Absolutely my point. Disney and Fox release movies on both formats right now. Just in the US only in Blu-Ray. The sign of some papers and they could easily flood the market with HD-DVD discs. No worrying about burning new discs or ramping up production, its already there.

One other thing of note is that the "movies sold" number is not accurately stated by either camp. It also includes free movies that you get when purchasing a new player.


----------



## phat78boy

elaclair said:


> I was curious about that, so I went back and checked the Nielson sales numbers for the week ending Oct 21 (the week Transformers came out) and according to their sales numbers, Blu-Ray still outsold HD-DVD even though Blu-Ray had no new titles released. Transformers WAS the number one individual title for that week, but there were too many Blu-Ray titles still selling in good numbers. The remaining nine titles of the Top 10 for that week were all Blu-Ray.


I apologize if my information was wrong. The way I read it was that even though the other 9 titles were Blu-Ray, that one title was equal to say all the sales of next 4 or 5 Blu-Ray titles.


----------



## Lord Vader

Slightly off topic here, but I can't believe I actually enjoyed Transformers. And in HD, too. A fun movie.


----------



## elaclair

phat78boy said:


> I apologize if my information was wrong. The way I read it was that even though the other 9 titles were Blu-Ray, that one title was equal to say all the sales of next 4 or 5 Blu-Ray titles.


No worries, I've stepped on my own tongue enough times..........:nono:


----------



## Richard King

Report: Blu-ray, HD DVD Player Prices Likely to Drop
http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=84651&var=story#84651


> Despite predictions to the contrary, the 2007 holiday shopping season ended without a clear victor in the hi-def disc format war. But with prices continuing to drop for hardware on both ends of the battle, a winner may finally be crowned in 2008.


More....


----------



## phat78boy

This should be very interesting year for both formats. I personally can't wait. I enjoy the deals good business wars breed. I only feel for those who try to jump on after the war. Watch those prices steadily climb once there is a clear winner.


----------



## Cholly

Amazon reports Strong Holiday sales for HD DVD, Blu-ray Disc players:
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...oliday_Sales_For_HD_DVD,_Blu-ray_Players/1305


----------



## Tom Robertson

phat78boy said:


> This should be very interesting year for both formats. I personally can't wait. I enjoy the deals good business wars breed. I only feel for those who try to jump on after the war. Watch those prices steadily climb once there is a clear winner.


I don't expect prices to climb steadily once the war is truly over. By that point, we'll be in the 3rd generation (or higher ) of player/pricing. There might be a modest bump, but that won't last. Manufacturers will still be competing for $$.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## phat78boy

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't expect prices to climb steadily once the war is truly over. By that point, we'll be in the 3rd generation (or higher ) of player/pricing. There might be a modest bump, but that won't last. Manufacturers will still be competing for $$.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


I can just see, once a winner is clear, new versions of boxes coming out with "improved" capabilities. Thus putting the price back to where it is now. Just the cynic in me I guess.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Today, you can find "regular" dvd players that range from $25 to $1,025 (and even more, I think.) And that will happen to the high definition winner someday. We won't see $25 this Christmas, of course, tho I bet we'll see a range of $100 to $1,500 once a winner is found. And I have now clue when that will be. I'm sure at CES both sides will claim the winner circle again.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Cholly

No clear winner yet in the war, despite Blu-ray Disc sales being 3 times that of HD DVD sales recently.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071225/BUSINESS/712250319


----------



## smiddy

Installed base makes a huge impact on who does what to the market and there is a clear difference in installed based.


----------



## smiddy

Of course from my household I need to convince Mrs. Smiddy what the deal is, she lived thru the betamax poop. She doesn't want to go thru that again...


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Something worth noting... HD DVD seems to have outsold Blu Ray by almost 2:1 during 2006... then Blu ray did the same 2:1 in 2007.

Releases in either format have been sparse... around 425 for each format last count... so I have a suspicion that people in 2006 bought a lot of HD and didn't need as many, except for the new releases.... then Blu ray sales picked up as HD DVD sales died down.

If we had thousands of movies available and the trend continued for 2:1 sales of one format over another, then that might say something... but one company winning one year and another company winning the next may just mean that the small customer base finally bought all the available movies and next year will depend upon who releases more.


----------



## brian188

The winner will be the first to release a HDDVD or Blueray recorder/Player at a reasonable price. If I can buy a Sony that will play Blueray discs, DVD discs, CDs, etc. AND record in Blueray format from a HD source, then I'm all over that. Vice versa of course too if it is an HDDVD rather than a blueray. I think we are some time from that though. 

Lower prices for new release discs will help too, but that will just be matched by the other format.


----------



## Hound

Tom Robertson said:


> Today, you can find "regular" dvd players that range from $25 to $1,025 (and even more, I think.) And that will happen to the high definition winner someday. We won't see $25 this Christmas, of course, tho I bet we'll see a range of $100 to $1,500 once a winner is found. And I have now clue when that will be. I'm sure at CES both sides will claim the winner circle again.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


The McIntosh MVP 871 (regular DVD player) has a retail list price of about $5,400.
I do not think that McIntosh is selling any with Blu Ray and HD DVD available.
I have not used my MVP 851, since I bought a Blu Ray player/ HD DVD player.
The digital sound tracks available on the Blu Ray/HD DVD players and HD PQ
have made the high end audiophile DVD player obsolete.

With Samsung now providing a multi player, I think both formats are here to
stay. In 2008, both formats will have players in the $99 to $199 range.


----------



## Cholly

Walmart.com is advertising a Venturer HD DVD player for $189.98 -- available online and in limited stores (also available "site to store" - order online for delivery to your store)

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=7942216


----------



## phat78boy

HDMe said:


> Something worth noting... HD DVD seems to have outsold Blu Ray by almost 2:1 during 2006... then Blu ray did the same 2:1 in 2007.
> 
> Releases in either format have been sparse... around 425 for each format last count... so I have a suspicion that people in 2006 bought a lot of HD and didn't need as many, except for the new releases.... then Blu ray sales picked up as HD DVD sales died down.
> 
> If we had thousands of movies available and the trend continued for 2:1 sales of one format over another, then that might say something... but one company winning one year and another company winning the next may just mean that the small customer base finally bought all the available movies and next year will depend upon who releases more.


Thats my take on the situation also.

While installed base matters, the PS3 is a huge defect in those numbers. I know many that have a PS3 and have bought plenty of Blu-Ray movies. On the flip side, I have several cousins who purchased it for their kids and soley use it for gaming. They didn't even get the free movies.


----------



## Drew2k

phat78boy said:


> Thats my take on the situation also.
> 
> While installed base matters, the PS3 is a huge defect in those numbers. I know many that have a PS3 and have bought plenty of Blu-Ray movies. On the flip side, I have several cousins who purchased it for their kids and soley use it for gaming. They didn't even get the free movies.


Speaking of "free movies" ... I'm still waiting for my 5 free HD-DVDs from when I bought the HD-A2 at Walmart's Pre-Black Friday sale ...


----------



## BudShark

Just to add my comments... I went to buy a Sony Blu-Ray this morning... and my Best Buy had sold out of them. They had 135 at the beginning of the week and 0 as of today. Similar situation with the Samsung (although they said he only had about 75 of those).

Anyway, the Panasonic was in stock, some Sharps, and tons of HD-DVD players. He said they were all shocked at the sales pace of Blu-Ray since the beginning of December. Of course this doesn't amount to much, but it does seem like Blu-Ray has the cachet which matters in consumer mindset.

Chris


----------



## phat78boy

Drew2k said:


> Speaking of "free movies" ... I'm still waiting for my 5 free HD-DVDs from when I bought the HD-A2 at Walmart's Pre-Black Friday sale ...


Your telling me. I purchased 6 of them that day, 3 were gifts. Not one movie has come in yet. I think the cut out said 8 weeks, but I didn't think they would use every single day.

I bought a HD-DVD and Blu-Ray player right after they came out and received my movies a lot faster at the time. I think the turn around was like 2-3 weeks.


----------



## phat78boy

BudShark said:


> Just to add my comments... I went to buy a Sony Blu-Ray this morning... and my Best Buy had sold out of them. They had 135 at the beginning of the week and 0 as of today. Similar situation with the Samsung (although they said he only had about 75 of those).
> 
> Anyway, the Panasonic was in stock, some Sharps, and tons of HD-DVD players. He said they were all shocked at the sales pace of Blu-Ray since the beginning of December. Of course this doesn't amount to much, but it does seem like Blu-Ray has the cachet which matters in consumer mindset.
> 
> Chris


Not so sure its Blu-Ray so much as the Sony name.


----------



## Dr_J

Drew2k said:


> Speaking of "free movies" ... I'm still waiting for my 5 free HD-DVDs from when I bought the HD-A2 at Walmart's Pre-Black Friday sale ...


I got a postcard saying that they would be shipping the end of January, and if I wanted to cancel the order before then, I should mail back the postcard. Ummm...sure, I'll cancel my order of free movies. :sure:


----------



## Lord Vader

I got mine in about 6 weeks roughly.


----------



## Drew2k

I'm just approaching 6 weeks and I haven't even received a postcard yet, so I guess they are swamped from all the new HD-A2s purchased just before Thanksgiving and I'll have a couple more weeks to wait before really getting antsy ...


----------



## phat78boy

Drew2k said:


> I'm just approaching 6 weeks and I haven't even received a postcard yet, so I guess they are swamped from all the new HD-A2s purchased just before Thanksgiving and I'll have a couple more weeks to wait before really getting antsy ...


Blockbuster online has a great selection of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray titles. Makes it nice for those movies you don't actually want to buy. I've heard Netflix has the same selection.


----------



## elaclair

brian188 said:


> The winner will be the first to release a HDDVD or Blueray recorder/Player at a reasonable price. If I can buy a Sony that will play Blueray discs, DVD discs, CDs, etc. AND record in Blueray format from a HD source, then I'm all over that. Vice versa of course too if it is an HDDVD rather than a blueray. I think we are some time from that though.
> 
> Lower prices for new release discs will help too, but that will just be matched by the other format.


Blu-Ray recorders are already available from Sony and Dell on their latest computers, haven't seen an HD-DVD recorder, but I do know that recordable media is available for both.


----------



## elaclair

phat78boy said:


> Thats my take on the situation also.
> 
> While installed base matters, the PS3 is a huge defect in those numbers. I know many that have a PS3 and have bought plenty of Blu-Ray movies. On the flip side, I have several cousins who purchased it for their kids and soley use it for gaming. They didn't even get the free movies.


If you count ONLY standalone players, they are almost at parity. If you include the game systems (which invariably the HD-DVD side always quotes for themselves) then there is a HUGE advantage to Blu-Ray. HD-DVD is around 750,000 versus almost 8 million for Blu-Ray......


----------



## Tom Robertson

Looks like I am making a choice sooner than I expected. BB has a 17" Acer laptop loaded for $1k, includes a Blu-ray player with DL DVD burner. (DVI-D output, HDCP compliant.) Let you know more when it arrives later this week.

Happy HD New Year!
Tom


----------



## Snoofie

Drew2k said:


> I'm just approaching 6 weeks and I haven't even received a postcard yet, so I guess they are swamped from all the new HD-A2s purchased just before Thanksgiving and I'll have a couple more weeks to wait before really getting antsy ...


I bought my XBOX HD DVD player on 10/27 and haven't received my 5 free movies yet and no word on when to expect them.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes, at about the 4 week mark I haven't seen anything free DVD-wise either.


----------



## DCSholtis

Mine took about 2 months to arrive. Never got a postcard or anything they just appeared in the mail one day.


----------



## Pink Fairy

DCSholtis said:


> Mine took about 2 months to arrive. Never got a postcard or anything they just appeared in the mail one day.


When we bought our PS3 there was a special to receive 5 Blu-Rays. Took about 6 weeks for them to arrive. There was only one on their list I wanted, and that was Phatom of the Opera - (OMG DROOL!!)

We also got Chicken Little, Hart's War, Stir of Echoes and Resident Evil - the second one.

First Blu-Ray we bought was the Planet Earth series that walmart had on sale for $65. So worth it! Now our collection is slowly growing, and I kind of wish I didnt have to start over with my movie collection, but oh well.


----------



## harsh

brian188 said:


> The winner will be the first to release a HDDVD or Blueray recorder/Player at a reasonable price. If I can buy a Sony that will play Blueray discs, DVD discs, CDs, etc. AND record in Blueray format from a HD source, then I'm all over that. Vice versa of course too if it is an HDDVD rather than a blueray. I think we are some time from that though.


I think it unlikely that we'll _ever_ see a HD recorder that can record anything other than OTA or camcorder programming. This is regardless of format now or in the future.


----------



## Steve Mehs

So then I take it's currently not possible to record HD content on BD via digital cable on a PC that has a cable card slot and BD Burner? I was think about playing around with doing just that if I ever get get my new ultimate dream computer from HP.


----------



## phat78boy

Steve Mehs said:


> So then I take it's currently not possible to record HD content on BD via digital cable on a PC that has a cable card slot and BD Burner? I was think about playing around with doing just that if I ever get get my new ultimate dream computer from HP.


You could do that no problem. I can do it via OTA right now. The hard part is just getting the HD content on your HDD. From there its fairly easy to burn Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.


----------



## Steve Mehs

Cool, I may now just have to upgrade the TV tuner to one that supports cable card. But since we're moving to Switched Digital Video, it may not be worth it. Looks like I have a few more decisions to make when ordering this computer.


----------



## harsh

Steve Mehs said:


> So then I take it's currently not possible to record HD content on BD via digital cable on a PC that has a cable card slot and BD Burner?


The current HP solution consists of either a single or dual ATSC tuner setup with FM which gives you nothing with CATV. QAM isn't part of the deal.

Clear QAM cards are available, but QAM cards with CableCard seem to be a pipe dream at this time. There also seem to be some compatibility issues with certain QAM schemes; particularly QAM64.


----------



## Steve Mehs

The ATI TV Wonder external digital cable tuner + internal TV tuner is an option on the Pavilion D4900T series.

"ATI TV Wonder external digital cable tuner + internal TV tuner 
FEATURES: External digital cable tuner enables Digital Cable Ready Windows Vista(TM) PCs to view and record premium HD digital cable with an installed CableCARD(TM) from a cable operator. BENEFITS: Watch and record high definition digital cable programs and enjoy a stunning home theater experience on your Digital Cable Ready Windows Vista PC. Designed to work with Windows Media Center, the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner is the world's first PC TV tuner offering CableCARD support for receiving premium HD content from digital cable channels such as HBO, ESPN, Cinemax, and many others. INCLUDES: Internal ATSC TV tuner with Personal Video Recorder (PVR), personal video recorder (PVR) lets you watch, pause, and replay from cable, digital cable, digital satellite, or over-the-air TV. "


----------



## Steve Mehs

I was at Best Buy today looking at the selection of HD DVDs and Blu Ray Discs. I was impressed with the HD DVD selection. Kinda hurts, I'm a Sony backer and I will go BD or nothing until there is a clear winner. So I'll do my part to help decide a winner and get a BD Player.  I've decided to wait until I get another 12% off any purchase coupon though.


----------



## smiddy

brian188 said:


> The winner will be the first to release a HDDVD or Blueray recorder/Player at a reasonable price. If I can buy a Sony that will play Blueray discs, DVD discs, CDs, etc. AND record in Blueray format from a HD source, then I'm all over that. Vice versa of course too if it is an HDDVD rather than a blueray. I think we are some time from that though.
> 
> Lower prices for new release discs will help too, but that will just be matched by the other format.


You can get BluRay Drives for the PC now...no issues.


----------



## smiddy

I have heard that Dreamworks is about to move to BluRay. Can anyone confirm this?


----------



## brian188

smiddy said:


> You can get BluRay Drives for the PC now...no issues.


Yes I know. I want a recorder in the blue ray player next to my TV. That's how a winner will be declared the first that can completely replace a DVD player. Not the first to live next to it. Same as DVD has almost eliminated VHS.


----------



## apexmi

smiddy said:


> I have heard that Dreamworks is about to move to BluRay. Can anyone confirm this?


Actually Dreamworks is tied into the Paramount exclusivity deal for at least another 12 months as HD-DVD only


----------



## Cholly

brian188 said:


> Yes I know. I want a recorder in the blue ray player next to my TV. That's how a winner will be declared the first that can completely replace a DVD player. Not the first to live next to it. Same as DVD has almost eliminated VHS.


I wonder -- Blu-ray Disc has built-in suppport of copy protection. Blu-ray PC recorders won't burn copy protected material, as I understand it.


----------



## Cholly

Interesting note: I just checked on pricegrabber.com and found only two online vendors with prices under $300 for the Sony BDP-S300. This is an upward migration from a few weeks ago. This is particularly interesting, because the new generation of Blu-ray Disc players is starting to appear and you'd normally expect older players like this to be lower in price.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I saw a Blu-Ray player at Circuit City for $299... at the same time the cheapest HD-DVD player was $269 there, but still $174 at Costco.


----------



## gcisko

OK since this is the Bluray versus HD-DVD thread, I hope someone knowledgable will help me understand this. 

One thing I always hated about DVDs is you could not FF or RW scan through the material like you were able to on tape. You could just FF or RW to or from chapters. I found out last night that my PS3 will scan forward and back through bluray and DVD movies just like as if it were a tape. 

Is this something that is not really advertized much? Do HD-DVD players do this as well? Sorry for being a noob about this. But it was a shock to me yesterday.


----------



## Drew2k

I have had standard DVD players that permitted not only normal FFW and REW action, but also instant replay and skip-ahead functionality (30-second skip). 

The two things I seriously miss on the Toshiba HD-A2 are instant replay and skip-ahead. Why they are missing is beyond me ...


----------



## phat78boy

gcisko said:


> OK since this is the Bluray versus HD-DVD thread, I hope someone knowledgable will help me understand this.
> 
> One thing I always hated about DVDs is you could not FF or RW scan through the material like you were able to on tape. You could just FF or RW to or from chapters. I found out last night that my PS3 will scan forward and back through bluray and DVD movies just like as if it were a tape.
> 
> Is this something that is not really advertized much? Do HD-DVD players do this as well? Sorry for being a noob about this. But it was a shock to me yesterday.


This is something I can do on regular DVD's, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. I do know that the cheaper DVD player I have in my son's room will not FF, it just jumps to the next chapter. All of my more expensive DVD players do this just fine. In fact my Sony has a jog dial that once activated, you can click back and forth to go frame by frame or faster if you wish. That player is atleast 7-8 years old.


----------



## Steve Mehs

Are you talking about fast forwarding and rewinding through the actual movie or through the beginning garbage like the FBI warning? Because every DVD player I've ever owned and used had FFW and REW functions just like VCRs. FFWing through the FBI warning and some other stuff is prohibited, but for the normal feature presentation, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to scan just like you did on VHS.


----------



## Drew2k

Steve Mehs said:


> FFWing through the FBI warning and some other stuff is prohibited


I guess this depends on the player as well ...

My older SONY DVD player would not let me FFW or even CHAPTER-SKIP past the FBI warnings, but my 5-disc HD-upconvert player lets me do either to get past them.


----------



## gcisko

Drew2k said:


> I guess this depends on the player as well ...
> 
> My older SONY DVD player would not let me FFW or even CHAPTER-SKIP past the FBI warnings, but my 5-disc HD-upconvert player lets me do either to get past them.


Thanks for the replies everyone. I really appreciate it. I guess I have just had cheap players in the past. I hope I am good for a while with my PS3.


----------



## BudShark

Just an FYI - Best Buy (at least my local one) is honoring the 5 free instant movies with open box Blu-Rays.

I stopped in at mine during lunch today and found a Sony BDP-S300 for $269.99. Checked it over and it had never been used (box open, remote still sealed, batteries sealed, player sealed, manual open). Still had UPC, etc.

Anyhow, the manager honored the $269 price with 5 free instant movies (and I'll do the mail in for the other 5). So I'm happy with that price and 10 free movies for my first jump into High Def DVDs...

Chris


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Drew2k said:


> I have had standard DVD players that permitted not only normal FFW and REW action, but also instant replay and skip-ahead functionality (30-second skip).
> 
> The two things I seriously miss on the Toshiba HD-A2 are instant replay and skip-ahead. Why they are missing is beyond me ...


What I can't figure out is with mine (HD-D3) is, with other DVD players, DISPLAY will show things like time elapsed per chapter and time remaining. Granted, the progress bar will give total time remaining but I would like to see more information. My Toshiba DVD player will give things like instantaneous bitrate... a lot of info that I thought was cool.


----------



## chris0

phat78boy said:


> This is something I can do on regular DVD's, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. I do know that the cheaper DVD player I have in my son's room will not FF, it just jumps to the next chapter. All of my more expensive DVD players do this just fine. In fact my Sony has a jog dial that once activated, you can click back and forth to go frame by frame or faster if you wish. That player is atleast 7-8 years old.


Wow, jog dial. I had a Sony VCR with a jog dial. You don't see those much anymore.


----------



## phat78boy

chris0 said:


> Wow, jog dial. I had a Sony VCR with a jog dial. You don't see those much anymore.


I love the jog dial. I guess it wasn't that popular as I haven't seen it much in recent years. Thats pretty much the main reason I even have that DVD player still.


----------



## gcisko

Stuart Sweet said:


> What I can't figure out is with mine (HD-D3) is, with other DVD players, DISPLAY will show things like time elapsed per chapter and time remaining. Granted, the progress bar will give total time remaining but I would like to see more information. My Toshiba DVD player will give things like instantaneous bitrate... a lot of info that I thought was cool.


My PS3 gives all sorts of bitrate info for audio as well as video if you are watching a movie and hit DISPLAY. I thought that was pretty cool so I can see why you would miss it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Maybe it's just that I went with the cheapest possible HD-DVD standalone player. I'm still pretty confident in my ability to pick the wrong format.


----------



## chris0

I have the A35 (the most expensive of the new ones) and it doesn't display the bitrate info, either. (At least I'm pretty sure it doesn't.) IMHO it's kind of cool to see, but some people tend to get caught up in the numbers thinking it's the end-all be-all of how you measure the quality of the disc.

And as for picking the wrong format, Mr. Shadow, don't worry...both formats are going to be with us for a long time.


----------



## ShawnL25

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Warner/Breaking:_Warner_Goes_Blu-ray_Exclusive/1325

Warner has gone Bluray only!


----------



## ShawnL25

Warner has gone Blu ray exclusive game over


----------



## tfederov

Don't know if it's over but it's looking good for Blu-Ray.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Figures I just went HDDVD


----------



## RAD

Wonder how many HD-DVD players that folks got for the holidays will be making their way back to the stores?


----------



## say-what

I've been holding out. Last time I chose Betamax and that didn't go well. Guess I can finally get that Blu-Ray player .....


----------



## jutley

Here is the link:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/04/warner-goes-blu-ray-exclusive/

It will be interesting to see if Toshiba can pull a rabbit out of their hat now.


----------



## Sirshagg

ShawnL25 said:


> Warner has gone Blu ray exclusive game over


This certainly does seem to be a devastating blow for HD-DVD.


----------



## venisenvy

I joined sides by getting a PS3. I got it for gaming but the blu-ray player has ended up getting as much use as the gaming side. I am happy that I wont have to go out and buy an HD-dvd player. Now I wonder how long HD has got until Blu-ray truly wins the war.


----------



## Barmat

venisenvy said:


> I joined sides by getting a PS3. I got it for gaming but the blu-ray player has ended up getting as much use as the gaming side. I am happy that I wont have to go out and buy an HD-dvd player. Now I wonder how long HD has got until Blu-ray truly wins the war.


Expect Paramount and Universal to go Bluray by mid '08. No one wants to be last. HD-DVD is already dead, it just doesn't know it yet.


----------



## dpfaunts

Stuart Sweet said:


> Figures I just went HDDVD


me too +1 :nono2:


----------



## jutley

The news seems to be correct and this may just pursuade me to go format neutral. Hmmmm


----------



## RAD

Barmat said:


> Expect Paramount and Universal to go Bluray by mid '08. No one wants to be last. HD-DVD is already dead, it just doesn't know it yet.


Wasn't there a time frame in the contract with paramount that said they couldn't go neutral until a certain date?


----------



## Barmat

HD-DVD is being kicked to the curb. The writing is on the wall, the war is over, Bluray won.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents


----------



## Earl Bonovich

And all those people that spent the $$$ on the Harry Potter HD-DVD Boxed set... who won't be able to get the last 2 in HD-DVD


----------



## kenn157

Earl Bonovich said:


> And all those people that spent the $$$ on the Harry Potter HD-DVD Boxed set... who won't be able to get the last 2 in HD-DVD


And I just bought the boxed set in BD because I have the PS3!


----------



## space86

What is the best new Blu Ray Disc Player to buy ?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

We'll see what the feeling is at CES of course. It sure does seem like I picked the wrong horse, again.


----------



## Tom Robertson

What timing. I had to replace a laptop in time for CES, the acer I picked up with all the goodies (Windows Ultimate!) also has Blu-ray player for $1k.

No longer even on BB's site, alas.

Will be an interesting CES. I'm invited to the blu-ray press conference, but the HD DVD was already full so didn't get in. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Drew2k

Will Warner go exclusively Blu Ray on International sales as well as US?


----------



## space86

Tom Robertson said:


> What timing. I had to replace a laptop in time for CES, the acer I picked up with all the goodies (Windows Ultimate!) also has Blu-ray player for $1k.
> 
> No longer even on BB's site, alas.
> 
> Will be an interesting CES. I'm invited to the blu-ray press conference, but the HD DVD was already full so didn't get in.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Is the Format War Over or is HD DVD still Alive and Well ?


----------



## jutley

Stuart Sweet said:


> We'll see what the feeling is at CES of course. It sure does seem like I picked the wrong horse, again.


I'm right with you my friend...


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> Figures I just went HDDVD


Stuart,

Hey, it's still a great up-converting standard DVD player.......


----------



## DCSholtis

Drew2k said:


> Will Warner go exclusively Blu Ray on International sales as well as US?


Let's hope not. I'm format neutral now but at times I prefer to go Red depending on the titles and I like the fact that HD DVDs are format neutral. Already have purchased a few imports due to this. Led Zeppelin's Song Remains The Same did not get recalled in Europe so it was easy to pick up my copy on Amazon UK for example.


----------



## DCSholtis

space86 said:


> Is the Format War Over or is HD DVD still Alive and Well ?


Alive and Well as long as HD DVD remains format neutral. There are always imports, remember.


----------



## Drew2k

I don't know if this is enough to declare the war over, but I'm very tempted to return 8 unopened HD-DVDs to Best Buy. I'm still within my 30 days ... 

I only have two opened HD-DVDs then, and my Toshiba HD-A2 becomes an expensive HD-upconvert DVD player.


----------



## Pinion413

ShawnL25 said:


> http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Warner/Breaking:_Warner_Goes_Blu-ray_Exclusive/1325
> 
> Warner has gone Bluray only!


Reason #463 why I'm sitting this war out until one has gone the way of Betamax and Select-a-vision.


----------



## Drew2k

If Warner and all these other "exclusive Blu-Ray" studios are still selling HD-DVD overseas, the format war is NOT over. 

But ... I'm still tempted to return 7 unopened HD-DVDs to Best Buy and cut my losses, living with yet another HD-upconvert DVD player (my Toshiba HD-AD, for which I still haven't even received my free HD-DVDs yet!)


----------



## Pinion413

space86 said:


> What is the best new Blu Ray Disc Player to buy ?


The best, from what I still read here and there, is a PlayStation 3. (Not an endorsement as I don't own one. Just what I've read.  )


----------



## Drew2k

I just posted this in another thread:

If Warner and all these other "exclusive Blu-Ray" studios are still selling HD-DVD overseas, the format war is NOT over. 

(But I'm still thinking of returning my HD-DVDs. Maybe. I think. I still have some time ... and hopefully I get my free 5 HD-DVDs soon too.)


----------



## mhayes70

I have been on vacation this week and been debating between HD DVD or Bluray. I think this just made up my mind. Bluray here I come.


----------



## mhayes70

Stuart Sweet said:


> Figures I just went HDDVD


Yeah, I almost did Wednesday. I am glad I held out to do more research on it.


----------



## Cholly

Yikes! Here I sit with 26 HD DVD's and two Toshiba HD DVD players.  That hurts! Of course, they are great upconverting players, so all is not lost. Just means I'll have to accelerate my purchase of a Blu-ray player. This is so typical of Time Warner. Years ago, they bought Atari, mismanaged the company and sold off the new chipset to Commodore, who used them in the Amiga. They mismanaged the Atari computer line, and it died. They merged with AOL, and now that company is in a mess. What next?


----------



## Mike728

DCSholtis said:


> Led Zeppelin's Song Remains The Same did not get recalled in Europe so it was easy to pick up my copy on Amazon UK for example.


They actually recalled both HD-DVD and BR versions. However, Barn's and Noble must not have gotten the message. I picked an HD-DVD one up from them last week.


----------



## ebaltz

This is AWESOME news. We are all winners that the superior format/platform etc...will now win out once and for all. After all it has been winning in sales like 2-1 or better.


----------



## Drew2k

It looks like Paramount is still exclusively HD-DVD, so one more reason to say the war is not yet over. If they go Blu-Ray, that should do it ...


----------



## bobukcat

This just convinced me to wait even longer, if ever, to buy an HD-DVD player. I was lucky enough to get a PS3 for Christmas and am blown away at how much better BD movies look compared to the SD DVD and Satellite HD versions of the same movie - even on my 5 year old 720P DLP!! I have assumed I'd have to get an HD-DVD player, but maybe I'll get lucky!


----------



## ebaltz

Pinion413 said:


> The best, from what I still read here and there, is a PlayStation 3. (Not an endorsement as I don't own one. Just what I've read.  )


I do own one and it is awesome, best machine period I have ever own. it does everything. Plays Blu-rays brilliantly and is conneted to the internet for updates and soon downloadable movie/music content etc...Its an amazing piece of technology. Get one and you won't be disappointed.


----------



## Drew2k

One major studio is still exclusively HD-DVD: Paramount. When they make the switch to Blu-Ray, that will seal the deal ... the question is how long before Paramount makes a move?


----------



## ebaltz

Drew2k said:


> I don't know if this is enough to declare the war over, but I'm very tempted to return 8 unopened HD-DVDs to Best Buy. I'm still within my 30 days ...
> 
> I only have two opened HD-DVDs then, and my Toshiba HD-A2 becomes an expensive HD-upconvert DVD player.


Okay then I'll say it for you. The war is other. Accept it and move on or wallow in the dead format.


----------



## DCSholtis

Mike728 said:


> They actually recalled both HD-DVD and BR versions. However, Barn's and Noble must not have gotten the message. I picked an HD-DVD one up from them last week.


I got the Blu version from fleabay a few weeks ago and the HD DVD version from Amazon UK. . One will go back to fleabay probably the Blu version because I already opened up the HD DVD one. Gotta love Zep in HD. Guess we know why it was delayed. I bet Warner waits till after they go Blu to release it.


----------



## Chris Blount

Please continue this discussion here:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=86101


----------



## DCSholtis

Drew2k said:


> One major studio is still exclusively HD-DVD: Paramount. When they make the switch to Blu-Ray, that will seal the deal ... the question is how long before Paramount makes a move?


Actually Paramount and Universal/Dreamworks.


----------



## ebaltz

space86 said:


> Is the Format War Over or is HD DVD still Alive and Well ?


Its over. Move on. Its just a matter of time now, so move to the winner now, like 2/3s of people already have in the HD market. Or, keep waisting your money, doesn't matter to me. I am and have been Blu and never worried about it because I knew it would win, now Warner knew the writing was on the wall and decided to move now rather than later and clean-up while the last hold-outs shoot themselves in the foot.


----------



## Chris Blount

Actually I'm kind of bummed about this. I have both formats but this opens the door for Sony to do whatever they want including keeping prices high. Sure, it sounds great to having one format in theory, but having Sony in charge is not exactly good news.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Not liking the Warner move at all. Was hoping something like this would wait until Sony and its partners dropped the Price even more. This may still happen as PS3 is losing ground to both the xbox360 and Wii systems. So maybe prices will continue to drop. That an others make Blu-Ray devices, and they are going to want to see the box's move too. Granted Sony will have a problem making the core of the blu-ray again and force prices back up instead.

It will be real funny, if with in a year or so, NetFlix and Blockbuster have improved there VOD sites, and you wont need a Blu-Ray or a HD-DVD.


----------



## Barmat

Drew2k said:


> One major studio is still exclusively HD-DVD: Paramount. When they make the switch to Blu-Ray, that will seal the deal ... the question is how long before Paramount makes a move?


Word is they have to wait untill May to go nuteral 12mo to go exclusive. Do yourself a favor, sell your player on ebay or craigslist as soon as posible. HD-DVD will be boat anchors in less then a year.

Bluray outsells HD-DVD 2-1. Now 70% of the movie pie is Bluray only.


----------



## celticpride

Well i have about 14 blu ray movies but no player,i returned my panasonic bd 30 because i couldn't get it to upcovert standard dvds to 1080i. Any way i hope the prices will fall on the panasonic blu ray player so i can buy for less than the $437.00 i paid the first time, I,d reall like to see it come down to around $299.00. If blu ry really wants to win this war they should lower the pric of bluray movies to $19.99 !


----------



## Carl Spock

Barmat said:


> Do yourself a favor, sell your player on ebay or craigslist as soon as posible. HD-DVD will be boat anchors in less then a year.


I'll keep mine. It looks good with my Betamax and LaserDisc player.


----------



## DCSholtis

Keeping mine as well. Imports won't be going away anytime soon.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DCSholtis said:


> Alive and Well as long as HD DVD remains format neutral. There are always imports, remember.


Format neutral? Seems like HD DVD is the opposition to blu-ray.

And I don't think the war is over yet.


----------



## Steve615

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080105/ap_on_hi_te/dueling_dvd_formats


----------



## Barmat

Carl Spock said:


> I'll keep mine. It looks good with my Betamax and LaserDisc player.


Dude, remind me not to ask you advice on consumer electronics.


----------



## yensid

Content is always king. Except for a few of you who buy overseas, the majority of folks will buy on Amazon, Best Buy, etc. That is why Blu-Ray will win. 

Barmat, that is toooo funny!


----------



## DCSholtis

Tom Robertson said:


> Format neutral? Seems like HD DVD is the opposition to blu-ray.
> 
> And I don't think the war is over yet.


OK you got me I totally screwed that up. I meant as I long as I, myself remain format neutral this announcement means nothing as long as HD DVD imports remain which they will for a while yet.


----------



## machavez00

well, it looks like those of us that were waiting for the Samsung duo are going to have to wait longer. $999.99

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...P5000&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1186007992533


----------



## Steve Mehs

Excellent news! While this may be (and I hope) is the beginning of the end of the HD DVD format, too bad Paramount had to switch sides in the middle of the game, otherwise I could rejoice and the format war would truly be over. No way Universal Studios could carry the entire HD DVD format on their own.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The only loser in this "war" is *all of us *consumers.

Now everyone will be stuck paying *more money *for Blu Ray machines, *more money *for Blu Ray disks, and generally *more money *for subpar technology. Sony wins, you lose.

Heck - even those poor folks who bought 1st generation Blu Ray players will soon find them to be semi-obsolete, as Sony just recently adopted some actual audio codec and Java standards for their disks *for the first time*. New disks willl have the new format content, and old units won't support those things. Do you think Sony cares - of course not.

In comparison, HD DVD had standards since day one, and their disks cost less and performed consistently on any of their players. They also outsold Blu Ray players to date (let's not talk about the game machine drives...most of those folks rent, not buy movies anyway). They met the basic media standards of the DVD Industry Council. Sony (Blu Ray) refused to meet those standards.

This is corporate betrayal to the American consumer at its highest level.

Blu Ray has been repeatedly proven to be an inferior product that is clearly manipulated by a handful of major studios. Yet, because Sony keeps pouring bad money after good into the pockets of a few, they seem to get their way.

Apparently there are alot of folks who have forgotten how Sony proprietary technology has repeatedly failed before and never made it mainstream - betamax, compact mini-disks, etc...

That's not to say Sony is a bad company or all their products are bad - its only when they try to railroad the public into "their way or the highway" formats and realted technology do we all lose.

Personally, I'm so livid at Time Warner right now, I'm going to deliberately find every avenue to avoid spending a nickel with that company or any of its subsidiaries ever again. 

My personal protest will mean little to that megopoly of media, yet, I will feel better knowing I took my few hundred annual dollars away from their bottom line. AOL Time Warner has been in the tolilet for some time, and this is the last straw for my funding anything they sell or anything they do.

As for buying any Blu Ray player and/or disks...it ain't gonna happen here...and I'll discourage anyone I talk to to do the same.

Betrayal to the American consumer yet again. Shame on those who support this. :nono:


----------



## Cholly

Steve Mehs said:


> Excellent news! While this may be (and I hope) is the beginning of the end of the HD DVD format, too bad Paramount had to switch sides in the middle of the game, otherwise I could rejoice and the format war would truly be over. No way Universal Studios could carry the entire HD DVD format on their own.


Steve: There is only one area in which Blu-ray is superior to HD DVD, and that is disc capacity. On the other side, HD DVD is region free, does not support the odious copy protection scheme native to Blu-ray disc, and the DVD's can be produced on a regular DVD line. Disney and Fox bought into Sony's format for those reasons. They are paranoid about someone cutting into their profits. It's all about the money, man. Warner caved because of Sony, Fox and Disney flexing their muscles.

To quote Yogi Berra, though: "It isn't over until it's over."


----------



## machavez00

time for me to head to fry's and scoop up some hd dvd's


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The only loser in this "war" is *all of us *consumers.
> 
> Now everyone will be stuck paying *more money *for Blu Ray machines, *more money *for Blu Ray disks, and generally *more money *for subpar technology. Sony wins, you lose.
> 
> Heck - even those poor folks who bought 1st generation Blu Ray players will soon find them to be semi-obsolete, as Sony just recently adopted some actual audio codec and Java standards for their disks *for the first time*. New disks willl have the new format content, and old units won't support those things. Do you think Sony cares - of course not.
> 
> In comparison, HD DVD had standards since day one, and their disks cost less and performed consistently on any of their players. They also outsold Blu Ray players to date (let's not talk about the game machine drives...most of those folks rent, not buy movies anyway). They met the basic media standards of the DVD Industry Council. Sony (Blu Ray) refused to meet those standards.
> 
> This is corporate betrayal to the American consumer at its highest level.
> 
> Blu Ray has been repeatedly proven to be an inferior product that is clearly manipulated by a handful of major studios. Yet, because Sony keeps pouring bad money after good into the pockets of a few, they seem to get their way.
> 
> Apparently there are alot of folks who have forgotten how Sony proprietary technology has repeatedly failed before and never made it mainstream - betamax, compact mini-disks, etc...
> 
> That's not to say Sony is a bad company or all their products are bad - its only when they try to railroad the public into "their way or the highway" formats and realted technology do we all lose.
> 
> Personally, I'm so livid at Time Warner right now, I'm going to deliberately find every avenue to avoid spending a nickel with that company or any of its subsidiaries ever again.
> 
> My personal protest will mean little to that megopoly of media, yet, I will feel better knowing I took my few hundred annual dollars away from their bottom line. AOL Time Warner has been in the tolilet for some time, and this is the last straw for my funding anything they sell or anything they do.
> 
> As for buying any Blu Ray player and/or disks...it ain't gonna happen here...and I'll discourage anyone I talk to to do the same.
> 
> Betrayal to the American consumer yet again. Shame on those who support this. :nono:


Ouch! Sorry, I am too ill to respond pragmatically, your axe is sharp now. :eek2:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Ouch! Sorry, I am too ill to respond pragmatically, your axe is sharp now. :eek2:


I emptied a 55 gallon drum of Tums myself.

I prefer to use the term "Hunting Bear"....


----------



## Carl Spock

Barmat said:


> Carl Spock said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll keep mine. It looks good with my Betamax and LaserDisc player.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, remind me not to ask you advice on consumer electronics.
Click to expand...

I sold stereos for 30 years. :grin:


----------



## DCSholtis

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The only loser in this "war" is *all of us *consumers.
> 
> Now everyone will be stuck paying *more money *for Blu Ray machines, *more money *for Blu Ray disks, and generally *more money *for subpar technology. Sony wins, you lose.
> 
> Heck - even those poor folks who bought 1st generation Blu Ray players will soon find them to be semi-obsolete, as Sony just recently adopted some actual audio codec and Java standards for their disks *for the first time*. New disks willl have the new format content, and old units won't support those things. Do you think Sony cares - of course not.
> 
> In comparison, HD DVD had standards since day one, and their disks cost less and performed consistently on any of their players. They also outsold Blu Ray players to date (let's not talk about the game machine drives...most of those folks rent, not buy movies anyway). They met the basic media standards of the DVD Industry Council. Sony (Blu Ray) refused to meet those standards.
> 
> This is corporate betrayal to the American consumer at its highest level.
> 
> Blu Ray has been repeatedly proven to be an inferior product that is clearly manipulated by a handful of major studios. Yet, because Sony keeps pouring bad money after good into the pockets of a few, they seem to get their way.
> 
> Apparently there are alot of folks who have forgotten how Sony proprietary technology has repeatedly failed before and never made it mainstream - betamax, compact mini-disks, etc...
> 
> That's not to say Sony is a bad company or all their products are bad - its only when they try to railroad the public into "their way or the highway" formats and realted technology do we all lose.
> 
> Personally, I'm so livid at Time Warner right now, I'm going to deliberately find every avenue to avoid spending a nickel with that company or any of its subsidiaries ever again.
> 
> My personal protest will mean little to that megopoly of media, yet, I will feel better knowing I took my few hundred annual dollars away from their bottom line. AOL Time Warner has been in the tolilet for some time, and this is the last straw for my funding anything they sell or anything they do.
> 
> As for buying any Blu Ray player and/or disks...it ain't gonna happen here...and I'll discourage anyone I talk to to do the same.
> 
> Betrayal to the American consumer yet again. Shame on those who support this. :nono:


Geez don't I know it..My BDP became near obsolete about 6 months after I got it for a birthday present. No way in hell will I be spending any money to upgrade it though. Screw Sony and yes this comes from someone who is neutral formal. I tend to lean more HD DVD more then Blu and will continue to do so due to the availability of overseas imports which will STILL run and STILL be available for the foreseeable future and which will STILL run on my A3 till the day it craps out.


----------



## Steve Mehs

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The only loser in this "war" is *all of us *consumers.
> 
> Now everyone will be stuck paying *more money *for Blu Ray machines, *more money *for Blu Ray disks, and generally *more money *for subpar technology. Sony wins, you lose.
> 
> Heck - even those poor folks who bought 1st generation Blu Ray players will soon find them to be semi-obsolete, as Sony just recently adopted some actual audio codec and Java standards for their disks *for the first time*. New disks willl have the new format content, and old units won't support those things. Do you think Sony cares - of course not.
> 
> In comparison, HD DVD had standards since day one, and their disks cost less and performed consistently on any of their players. They also outsold Blu Ray players to date (let's not talk about the game machine drives...most of those folks rent, not buy movies anyway). They met the basic media standards of the DVD Industry Council. Sony (Blu Ray) refused to meet those standards.
> 
> This is corporate betrayal to the American consumer at its highest level.
> 
> Blu Ray has been repeatedly proven to be an inferior product that is clearly manipulated by a handful of major studios. Yet, because Sony keeps pouring bad money after good into the pockets of a few, they seem to get their way.
> 
> Apparently there are alot of folks who have forgotten how Sony proprietary technology has repeatedly failed before and never made it mainstream - betamax, compact mini-disks, etc...
> 
> That's not to say Sony is a bad company or all their products are bad - its only when they try to railroad the public into "their way or the highway" formats and realted technology do we all lose.
> 
> Personally, I'm so livid at Time Warner right now, I'm going to deliberately find every avenue to avoid spending a nickel with that company or any of its subsidiaries ever again.
> 
> My personal protest will mean little to that megopoly of media, yet, I will feel better knowing I took my few hundred annual dollars away from their bottom line. AOL Time Warner has been in the tolilet for some time, and this is the last straw for my funding anything they sell or anything they do.
> 
> As for buying any Blu Ray player and/or disks...it ain't gonna happen here...and I'll discourage anyone I talk to to do the same.
> 
> Betrayal to the American consumer yet again. Shame on those who support this. :nono:


Wow someone's a little testy. :lol: I assume you feel the same way about News Corp and Disney.

You are going to cancel your satellite TV subscription too, right? You're indirectly funding Time Warner (and other BD backers) since they own a good portion of the channels you get. On a corporate level, whatever TW looses because of your 'protest' they'll make up with me. Next month my cable promo ends and my bill goes up $40 to retail rate, and when I get my BD player, The Perfect Storm, Swordfish, Frequency, Bloodwork (all WB/New Line releases) will be some of my first BD titles.

I don't see how this is a betrayal, unless it's because they didn't pick your side. Warner Bros was one of the few studios who released movies on both formats, according to the article BD outsold HD DVD 60/40, so Time Warner did the right thing and went with the better selling format. They gave both a chance, what more can you ask for.

Hopefully in 3 months time I'll have both a Sony BD Player and a new HP computer with a BD burner. You may not like Blu Ray Disc, but a lot of people will continue to support the format, if you don't want to be a part of all this, that's your choice, but if you really are going to manipulate other people into not buying BD, that really shows lack of maturity. I have my favorites for all sorts of things, but I would never force my way of thinking on to others, because what's right for me may not be right for them.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DCSholtis said:


> Geez don't I know it..My BDP became near obsolete about 6 months after I got it for a birthday present. No way in hell will I be spending any money to upgrade it though. Screw Sony and yes this comes from someone who is neutral formal. I tend to lean more HD DVD more then Blu and will continue to do so due to the availability of overseas imports which will STILL run and STILL be available for the foreseeable future and which will STILL run on my A3 till the day it craps out.


Amen brother....another smart consumer who saw the light!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve Mehs said:


> Wow someone's a little testy. :lol: I assume you feel the same way about News Corp and Disney.
> 
> You are going to cancel your satellite TV subscription too, right? You're indirectly funding Time Warner (and other BD backers) since they own a good portion of the channels you get.


Don't think I haven't given that all some serious thought.

I also have 26 names and addresses for Board Members and Senior Execs at Time Warner so far to whom to write letters of disgust.


> Hopefully in 3 months time I'll have both a Sony BD Player and a new HP computer with a BD burner. You may not like Blu Ray Disc, but a lot of people will continue to support the format, if you don't want to be a part of all this, that's your choice, but if you really are going to manipulate other people into not buying BD, that really shows lack of maturity.


The only manipulation going on right now is by Sony.

Educating consumers is a good thing, not manipulation.


----------



## Steve Mehs

Cholly said:


> Steve: There is only one area in which Blu-ray is superior to HD DVD, and that is disc capacity. On the other side, HD DVD is region free, does not support the odious copy protection scheme native to Blu-ray disc, and the DVD's can be produced on a regular DVD line. Disney and Fox bought into Sony's format for those reasons. They are paranoid about someone cutting into their profits. It's all about the money, man. Warner caved because of Sony, Fox and Disney flexing their muscles.
> 
> To quote Yogi Berra, though: "It isn't over until it's over."


Don't care about regions, every DVD I have is region 1, I have no interest in imports. Copy protection isn't an issue either. Content is an issue, and right now it appears that is going in the favor of Blu Ray. I really wish Paramount wouldn't have switched sides, my first real DVD experience was with Deep Impact, it would be cool to have that be my first Blu Ray experience as well, but I think I'll leave that to Ice Age, I was totally blown out by the demo at CompUSA.


----------



## chris0

chris0 said:


> ...And as for picking the wrong format, Mr. Shadow, don't worry...both formats are going to be with us for a long time.


Ok, maybe not. Good job Shadow!


----------



## apexmi

Barmat said:


> Do yourself a favor, sell your player on ebay or craigslist as soon as posible. HD-DVD will be boat anchors in less then a year.


Yeah that's good advice cause they wil stop functioning the day the WAR is over....

:eek2:


----------



## Steve Mehs

In light of all of this the HD DVD group announced they canceled their CES press conference.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/0...-ces-press-conference-in-wake-of-warner-anno/

Things aren't looking too good right now.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Guess I don't feel too bad that I didn't get an invite to the HD-DVD press conference on Sunday. (Did get one for the Blu-ray event...)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Barmat

apexmi said:


> Yeah that's good advice cause they wil stop functioning the day the WAR is over....
> 
> :eek2:


You sound like the type that will be trolling the bargin bins in a few years looking for HD-DVD's.


----------



## Steve Mehs

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Don't think I haven't given that all some serious thought.
> 
> I also have 26 names and addresses for Board Members and Senior Execs at Time Warner so far to whom to write letters of disgust.
> 
> The only manipulation going on right now is by Sony.
> 
> Educating consumers is a good thing, not manipulation.


Write letters all you want, the decision has already been made. A handful of complaints will mean nothing in the long run. What you are conveniently forgetting is they gave both formats an equal shot, and now they pulled the trigger and kept the better selling. It was a smart business decision. And somehow I think your rendition of 'educating consumers' wouldn't be unbiased. I have my own biases, but would never talk people into getting things that aren't right for them. I don't work for any other these companies, I'm not getting any kick backs, what do I care. But Sony and TWX are no more evil then Toshiba and Viacom. If you like HD DVD better, that's your business, it doesn't bother me.


----------



## Snoofie

I think the writing is definitely on the wall for HD-DVD now. I had already decided that I would slow my buying of HD-DVD movies and wait to buy only ones that I really, really wanted. I guess I will now move on with my plan to buy a PS3 a little sooner so that I can enjoy Blu Ray movies. I won't totally give up on HD-DVD until Paramount backs Blu Ray again, but I don't think that will be long now. Even with massive price drops on HD-DVD equipment without studio support it's a dead duck. I don't plan on selling my 360 HD-DVD player and will still watch what movies I have, but I will only buy discounted titles from now until this format war is over for good.


----------



## DCSholtis

Money talks and the BSers that are Warner walked.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Part of the problem here is what does the winner actually win? The HD/Blu ray market has been less than 5% of the total DVD market thus far... so there is no "win" really at this point. The same would be true if Warner had went HD DVD exclusive.

Personally, I think the smarter move would have been for all studios to make both HD DVD and Blu ray and compete to get customers, which would result in more customers faster.

Now it is highly likely with one format that the prices will remain higher since they are "premium" format... and I know I'm not running out to buy a Blu ray player that might cost double or more what I paid for my HD DVD player anytime soon.

If you look at the numbers from 2006 and 2007 it was roughly a stalemate between both formats over a 2 year period... and that entire market wasn't a big chunk compared to what both format supporters were spending.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sorry, I don't buy into the "one format means higher prices" theory. One format means more people start buying because lots of people like me are waiting for the silly war to finish. There still is plenty of competition at the manufacturer level to get prices down, and quickly once buyers start getting interested at their price points. 

I would likely have two or three players by now if there wasn't the war. And the dozen or so DVDs I got at christmas would be the winning format.

Canceling the CES press conference is another interesting play. We'll see what they say at the booth.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ebaltz

uscboy said:


> Yep. Look at the Best Buy ad this week... sitting one above the other, Samsung
> Blu-Ray for $699 after savings, Toshiba HD DVD for $299 after savings.
> 
> I don't care what kind of minimal lead Blu-Ray has RIGHT NOW... with prices like
> that, they will lose unless they can get them under control. Joe 6-pack will not
> spend $700 on Blu-Ray. They have the studio edge right now, but if the numbers
> of units ends up like I think it will because of prices, then the Blu-Ray studios will
> have to start going neutral and offering HD DVDs.


Apparently you haven't done much research have you. Blu-ray's players are priced well below that, including the best Blu-ray player the PS3 which you can get for $399. Since when is cheaper better. I don't see crappy cheap cars outselling more expensive better ones. Additionally "minimally"? The sales are 2-1 or 66% in favor of Blu-ray, hardly minimal, that is a slaughter, in politics its known as a landslide. You act like the last thing you ever read on the subject was a year ago. Blu-ray wins, Warner knows that and made a great decision.


----------



## Lord Vader

The Panasonic BD30 blows away the PS3, so your assessment that the PS3 is the "best Blu-Ray player" is incorrect.


----------



## ebaltz

Chris Blount said:


> Actually I'm kind of bummed about this. I have both formats but this opens the door for Sony to do whatever they want including keeping prices high. Sure, it sounds great to having one format in theory, but having Sony in charge is not exactly good news.


Sony isn't in charge. get your facts straight. The BDA is the organization supporting Blu-ray which includes many manufacturers and studios. If anyone wanted to "control" anything it was Toshiba and Microsoft (who bribed Paramount). But if you would like Microsoft in charge of things, you are in luck, they rule the computer world, so enjoy.


----------



## ebaltz

GrumpyBear said:


> Not liking the Warner move at all. Was hoping something like this would wait until Sony and its partners dropped the Price even more. This may still happen as PS3 is losing ground to both the xbox360 and Wii systems. So maybe prices will continue to drop. That an others make Blu-Ray devices, and they are going to want to see the box's move too. Granted Sony will have a problem making the core of the blu-ray again and force prices back up instead.
> 
> It will be real funny, if with in a year or so, NetFlix and Blockbuster have improved there VOD sites, and you wont need a Blu-Ray or a HD-DVD.


VOD won't replace physical movies for some time, so you just keep holding on to that dream.


----------



## ebaltz

Lord Vader said:


> The Panasonic BD30 blows away the PS3, so your assessment that the PS3 is the "best Blu-Ray player" is incorrect.


Does your Panny, browse the internet, play video games, store your entire collection of still photos and MP3, rip CDs, and get updates directly from the internet and support what will be BD 2.0? Not saying it is a bad player, but PS3 is considered one of the best by virtually everyone in the know, plus it does all the other stuff and has been one of the lowest priced BD players to boot.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> Part of the problem here is what does the winner actually win? The HD/Blu ray market has been less than 5% of the total DVD market thus far... so there is no "win" really at this point. The same would be true if Warner had went HD DVD exclusive.
> 
> Personally, I think the smarter move would have been for all studios to make both HD DVD and Blu ray and compete to get customers, which would result in more customers faster.
> 
> Now it is highly likely with one format that the prices will remain higher since they are "premium" format... and I know I'm not running out to buy a Blu ray player that might cost double or more what I paid for my HD DVD player anytime soon.
> 
> If you look at the numbers from 2006 and 2007 it was roughly a stalemate between both formats over a 2 year period... and that entire market wasn't a big chunk compared to what both format supporters were spending.


BD has consistently outsold HD-DVD 2-1 since inception. Anywhere you find stats, that is the number. Hardly a stalemate.

NY TIMES thinks its over: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/did-warner-brothers-just-kill-hd-dvd/?hp


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> BD has consistently outsold HD-DVD 2-1 since inception. Anywhere you find stats, that is the number. Hardly a stalemate.


That is just simply not true. Blu ray has dominated the sales for the bulk of 2007, but 2006 was reversed the other way around at least in part because HD DVD hit the market first.

My point wasn't intended to be pro one side or the other... merely pointing out that if you go back to the beginning there is no wide margin of victory of sales at this point, even for Blu ray.

Even if sales of movies were 3:1 in favor of Blu ray, we are only talking about 3-5% of the market when compared to how strong regular DVDs sell... so if HD DVD reversed the trend in 2008 then they could easily dominate the overall sales.. OR Blu ray could have commanded a higher lead if they released more movies from their catalogue of exclusive studios.

The "win" would have been one format from day one... but we didn't get that. So the next "win" can't really occur after only 2 years of minimal/marginal sales of both formats combined.

What is true for the moment, though, aborting this "war" prematurely ensures that the side that "loses" waits longer to go to the other format.

If HD DVD wins tomorrow, Blu ray owners aren't going to run out the door and buy a brand new player that quickly. Similarly, HD DVD owners aren't running out the door tomorrow to buy Blu ray if this is the end. So... while the total market is 3-5%, if HD DVD "dies" this month then all those sales might very well go into limbo as those people go back to buying the much cheaper DVDs than re-investing in a Blu ray player.

I'm not prejudiced to one or the other format here, even though I own HD... but I wouldn't have had HD if the player wasn't virtually free from the Thanksgiving sale. Blu ray could have had me then too with a similar offer.. so it was a coin toss from my perspective.. but the same reasoning will keep me from buying Blu ray until I get a similar free player deal... and in the meantime I will no longer be buying a bunch of HD that I could have bought if this format dies because of Warner.

Look at things another way... Warner said their sales were 60:40 in favor of Blu ray. Now.. .flash to 5 years from now and say both formats had survived... Would Warner cut off sales of HD DVD if the numbers were 6 million Blu and 4 million HD? I doubt it. So even the status quo could have been profitable for dual support in the future.

But right now, the real numbers are more like 60,000 Blu and 40,000 HD for any given movie release... and Warner is throwing away those 40,000 sales and it isn't likely most of those will become new Blu ray owners this year unless something else major happens.

Recapping... Better choice would have been one format from the start. But bailing now might kill both formats rather than help.


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> If HD DVD wins tomorrow, Blu ray owners aren't going to run out the door and buy a brand new player that quickly. Similarly, HD DVD owners aren't running out the door tomorrow to buy Blu ray if this is the end. So... while the total market is 3-5%, if HD DVD "dies" this month then all those sales might very well go into limbo as those people go back to buying the much cheaper DVDs than re-investing in a Blu ray player.


I think you're missing the point. Warner's not looking at the 3-5% you speak of, they're looking at the other 95-97%. They're looking at the people who are interested in getting into HDM but didn't want to buy when there were still two competing formats. People just like Tom. The potential for growth in HDM is much greater when people know that the format they buy today will still be the one offered tomorrow.



HDMe said:


> Recapping... Better choice would have been one format from the start. But bailing now might kill both formats rather than help.


Well, if someone ever invents a time machine then that could be an option. But for now what's done is done. I really don't see how having a format war that confused the regular consumer is better right now than just having one HDM format.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> That is just simply not true. Blu ray has dominated the sales for the bulk of 2007, but 2006 was reversed the other way around at least in part because HD DVD hit the market first.
> 
> My point wasn't intended to be pro one side or the other... merely pointing out that if you go back to the beginning there is no wide margin of victory of sales at this point, even for Blu ray.
> 
> Even if sales of movies were 3:1 in favor of Blu ray, we are only talking about 3-5% of the market when compared to how strong regular DVDs sell... so if HD DVD reversed the trend in 2008 then they could easily dominate the overall sales.. OR Blu ray could have commanded a higher lead if they released more movies from their catalogue of exclusive studios.
> 
> The "win" would have been one format from day one... but we didn't get that. So the next "win" can't really occur after only 2 years of minimal/marginal sales of both formats combined.
> 
> What is true for the moment, though, aborting this "war" prematurely ensures that the side that "loses" waits longer to go to the other format.
> 
> If HD DVD wins tomorrow, Blu ray owners aren't going to run out the door and buy a brand new player that quickly. Similarly, HD DVD owners aren't running out the door tomorrow to buy Blu ray if this is the end. So... while the total market is 3-5%, if HD DVD "dies" this month then all those sales might very well go into limbo as those people go back to buying the much cheaper DVDs than re-investing in a Blu ray player.
> 
> I'm not prejudiced to one or the other format here, even though I own HD... but I wouldn't have had HD if the player wasn't virtually free from the Thanksgiving sale. Blu ray could have had me then too with a similar offer.. so it was a coin toss from my perspective.. but the same reasoning will keep me from buying Blu ray until I get a similar free player deal... and in the meantime I will no longer be buying a bunch of HD that I could have bought if this format dies because of Warner.
> 
> Look at things another way... Warner said their sales were 60:40 in favor of Blu ray. Now.. .flash to 5 years from now and say both formats had survived... Would Warner cut off sales of HD DVD if the numbers were 6 million Blu and 4 million HD? I doubt it. So even the status quo could have been profitable for dual support in the future.
> 
> But right now, the real numbers are more like 60,000 Blu and 40,000 HD for any given movie release... and Warner is throwing away those 40,000 sales and it isn't likely most of those will become new Blu ray owners this year unless something else major happens.
> 
> Recapping... Better choice would have been one format from the start. But bailing now might kill both formats rather than help.


When people with HD equipment don't get 75% of available movies in the format of the player they have, yes they will switch and quickly. No one with that kind of investment in audio and HDTV is going to let that many new releases come out that they can't enjoy. A lot of people had a betamax and relented and got a VHS for the same reason.

I am sure cassette tapes outsold DVDs for the first year or few too, the point is for the past year and for the foreseeable future Blu-ray was kicking HD DVD's tail, Warner knew it and decided to not waste any more resources and time to a format soon for life only on e-bay. Watch the number of those players available on that site rise quickly over the next month as people try to get out of their investment while they still can.


----------



## ebaltz

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The only loser in this "war" is *all of us *consumers.
> 
> Now everyone will be stuck paying *more money *for Blu Ray machines, *more money *for Blu Ray disks, and generally *more money *for subpar technology. Sony wins, you lose.
> 
> Heck - even those poor folks who bought 1st generation Blu Ray players will soon find them to be semi-obsolete, as Sony just recently adopted some actual audio codec and Java standards for their disks *for the first time*. New disks willl have the new format content, and old units won't support those things. Do you think Sony cares - of course not.
> 
> In comparison, HD DVD had standards since day one, and their disks cost less and performed consistently on any of their players. They also outsold Blu Ray players to date (let's not talk about the game machine drives...most of those folks rent, not buy movies anyway). They met the basic media standards of the DVD Industry Council. Sony (Blu Ray) refused to meet those standards.
> 
> This is corporate betrayal to the American consumer at its highest level.
> 
> Blu Ray has been repeatedly proven to be an inferior product that is clearly manipulated by a handful of major studios. Yet, because Sony keeps pouring bad money after good into the pockets of a few, they seem to get their way.
> 
> Apparently there are alot of folks who have forgotten how Sony proprietary technology has repeatedly failed before and never made it mainstream - betamax, compact mini-disks, etc...
> 
> That's not to say Sony is a bad company or all their products are bad - its only when they try to railroad the public into "their way or the highway" formats and realted technology do we all lose.
> 
> Personally, I'm so livid at Time Warner right now, I'm going to deliberately find every avenue to avoid spending a nickel with that company or any of its subsidiaries ever again.
> 
> My personal protest will mean little to that megopoly of media, yet, I will feel better knowing I took my few hundred annual dollars away from their bottom line. AOL Time Warner has been in the tolilet for some time, and this is the last straw for my funding anything they sell or anything they do.
> 
> As for buying any Blu Ray player and/or disks...it ain't gonna happen here...and I'll discourage anyone I talk to to do the same.
> 
> Betrayal to the American consumer yet again. Shame on those who support this. :nono:


Is that dream world you live in nice? I guess one can convince themselves of almost anything if given enough time (and drugs). Enjoy your HD DVDs and the 5 new releases next year.  You might want to unload your player on ebay now while you still can though. So basically you don't want to support those controllers like Warner and Sony, and instead support Microsoft. Uh huh, thats sound rational thinking, because we know MS never tries to control anything, and things go so well when they do. Uh huh. Good one.


----------



## ebaltz

chris0 said:


> I think you're missing the point. Warner's not looking at the 3-5% you speak of, they're looking at the other 95-97%. They're looking at the people who are interested in getting into HDM but didn't want to buy when there were still two competing formats. People just like Tom. The potential for growth in HDM is much greater when people know that the format they buy today will still be the one offered tomorrow.
> 
> Well, if someone ever invents a time machine then that could be an option. But for now what's done is done. I really don't see how having a format war that confused the regular consumer is better right now than just having one HDM format.


Well put. They want people to replace their entire catalog of DVDs with an HD format, and they know it just isn't going to fly to have two formats, they chose the right one, and now can put an end to the war and get people into buying a ton more Blu-rays and move away from DVDs. Its a brilliant strategy.


----------



## Chris Blount

ebaltz said:


> Sony isn't in charge. get your facts straight. The BDA is the organization supporting Blu-ray which includes many manufacturers and studios. If anyone wanted to "control" anything it was Toshiba and Microsoft (who bribed Paramount). But if you would like Microsoft in charge of things, you are in luck, they rule the computer world, so enjoy.


I wasn't talking literal. Sony has a big stake in Blu-Ray (they even developed it with Pioneer) and no matter what the BDA does, Sony is calling the shots. It's foolish to think otherwise.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Lord Vader said:


> The Panasonic BD30 blows away the PS3, so your assessment that the PS3 is the "best Blu-Ray player" is incorrect.


I don't know about specs or features, but I do know the PS3 is the most popular of Blu-Ray player. It also has a very heavy set of features, processing power, memory and a hard drive. I think as Blu-Ray moves forward and they finalize their specs, anyone with a PS3 will continue to see their PS3 become more robust to match those new Blu-Ray specs. I know for certain some blu-ray players will not have the same fate.

With the exception of the lack of an IR remote, the PS3 is in my opinion the best blu-ray player to have currently. Especially if you want to look forward and recieve the best in the future.


----------



## apexmi

Barmat said:


> You sound like the type that will be trolling the bargin bins in a few years looking for HD-DVD's.


Sure I will, they will still play on my players. I have both formats so it doesn't hurt me to have one side win but that does not mean the other side is instantly useless.


----------



## Carl Spock

Bingo.

If I have one complaint, it's the win/lose mentality exhibited here. Or maybe I just define things differently. Winning to me means being able to pull out Michael Nesmith's _Elephant Parts _on LaserDisc and laughing at it one more time. Winning means listening to Cowboy's excellent first phonograph record again. I win when I watch LiveAid, which I recorded without interruption, using two decks, on Beta. Watching the remastered episodes of Star Trek on HD-DVD is a huge win.

_Elephant Parts_ has never come out on DVD. Cowboy is not out on CD. Only excerpts of LiveAid have ever been released since the first broadcast. Star Trek Remastered is only available on HD-DVD.

Sony doesn't win. Who cares about an international corporation, anyway? Blu-ray doesn't win. It's just a machine. I could really care less about machines.

I will win when I buy a Blu-ray player this year. I was planning to well before Warner's recent decision. I am just waiting for them to come down more in price. After that I can enjoy _Casino Royale _in HD. That's winning to me.

I win when I enjoy my entertainment. I win big time. This is the only kind of winning I care about.


----------



## tgr131

Carl Spock said:


> I win when I enjoy my entertainment. I win big time. This is the only kind of winning I care about.


I really like this attitude. However, I can't help but feeling that I lost. I got an HD-A3 for Christmas, and just peeled the UPC off the box to send in for my freebies, rendering it non returnable. I think that by the end of 2008, I will have an expensive upconverting DVD player.

Quite frankly, I didn't think HD-DVD would win, but I thought it would thrive for several more years.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tgr131 said:


> I really like this attitude. However, I can't help but feeling that I lost. I got an HD-A3 for Christmas, and just peeled the UPC off the box to send in for my freebies, rendering it non returnable. I think that by the end of 2008, I will have an expensive upconverting DVD player.
> 
> Quite frankly, I didn't think HD-DVD would win, but I thought it would thrive for several more years.


Enjoy your HD DVD player.

I have 2 HD DVD units and already feel I've "won" for some time. I get to see top flight HD movies AND quality upconverted SD flicks as well. I already have countless hours of entertainment value on these units - HD quality video and audio both.

The only one who loses anything is ALL HD CONSUMERS, as now the price gouging from the Sony camp (which has been ruthless to date) can only get worse. Overpriced players, overpriced media, lack of specification standardization, inferior audio reproduction, and an entire format that will probably be replaced by something more stable in the future anyway.

If you think YOU have lost, just consider those who bought Blu Ray boxes so far and don't even know yet that they too will "lose" -- many will soon be seeing the effects of the revised specifications in October 2007 for new Java and revised audio codecs not supported in their boxes. Those features will only start to show up in the newer models. As new BD movies come out with these features, the old BD boxes won't support many of these new features. Can you say obsolete?

Again, HD CONSUMER lost, not anyone else (of course, that would be almost everyone)....


----------



## tgr131

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Enjoy your HD DVD player...
> 
> If you think YOU have lost, just consider those who bought Blu Ray boxes so far and don't even know yet that they too will "lose" -- many will soon be seeing the effects of the revised specifications in October 2007 for new Java and revised audio codecs not supported in their boxes. Those features will only start to show up in the newer models. As new BD movies come out with these features, the old BD boxes won't support many of these new features. Can you say obsolete?
> 
> Again, HD CONSUMER lost, not anyone else (of course, that would be almost everyone)....


Thanks for the kind words... I do feel a _little_ better...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tgr131 said:


> Thanks for the kind words... I do feel a _little_ better...


No problem.

Remember...only about 5% of the American public has even SEEN HD DVD (or Blu Ray), and you are one of them that gets to enjoy it.

Whenm Transformers came out, there were 250,000+ copies sold the first week in HD DVD. There were 5 mIllion copies sold in the regular DVD format.

Unless BD now takes off (and there's no reason to think that will happen unless there are major price reductions in the palyers and media), the adoption of BD could be aborted as well in the coming year.

There are countless articles touting the fact that most (80%) of the public has no interest in switching from regular DVD at this time, unless it is cost effective to do so.

We are some of the lucky ones who get to enjoy HD now.


----------



## harsh

Cholly said:


> Years ago, they bought Atari, mismanaged the company and sold off the new chipset to Commodore, who used them in the Amiga. They mismanaged the Atari computer line, and it died.


I'd like to be able to live in alternate realities such as this. What do you have to inhale or inject to change history?

Amiga never consummated any deals with Atari or Time Warner. Amiga was a skunk works (originally named El Toro) and they developed their own designs.

What Commodore did was buy Amiga out from under Atari who, at that time, was headed by the founder of Commodore, Jack Tramiel, and his sons.


----------



## Cholly

If you've been watching prices at all, you'd see that there has been a recent reversal in Blu-ray Disc player pricing. A month ago you could find Blu-ray Disc players for under $300 at most major retailers. Now the price is $350 plus. The $399 Sony PS3 is probably the best buy today, because it is level 1.1 compatible and a very good game console as well. On the downside: accepts only a Bluetooth remote (IR capability supposedly coming in the next generation PS3 later this year), also won't play most if any PS2 games.

Blu-ray Disc is not technologically superior to HD DVD, except for disc capacity. BDA is only now embracing features that have been standard in HD DVD since day one. Why, then, is HD DVD apparently doomed? As I've said before, it's all about the money. Although there are many manufacturers in the BDA, it's still Sony and Disney that have made the format the likely winner. When you have a couple of 600 pound gorillas calling the shots, you're inclined to listen.


----------



## Cholly

harsh said:


> I'd like to be able to live in alternate realities such as this. What do you have to inhale or inject to change history?
> 
> Amiga never consummated any deals with Atari or Time Warner. Amiga was a skunk works (originally named El Toro) and they developed their own designs.
> 
> What Commodore did was buy Amiga out from under Atari who, at that time, was headed by the founder of Commodore, Jack Tramiel, and his sons.


Perhaps my memory is a bit hazy. The Amy chipset (I believe that was the name) was developed by Atari engineer Jay Miner (to the best of my knowledge, during the time Atari was owned by Warner, which had purchased the company in 1976 -- see http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/bushnell.html). It was to be used in the next generation computer, replacing the Atari 820 (which was killed by upper management).
Miner was apparently dissatisfied with the way things were going and left Atari. As you stated, the company that developed the Amiga was not Atari, but a startup company. The design of the computer was based on Miner's work. (see http://www.heartbone.com/comphist/AmigaHistory.htm for details) Commodore at the time was enjoying great success with the Commodore 64 and when Amiga was about to go under, bought the company by offering a better price than Atari. The rest is history.


----------



## ebaltz

AlbertZeroK said:


> I don't know about specs or features, but I do know the PS3 is the most popular of Blu-Ray player. It also has a very heavy set of features, processing power, memory and a hard drive. I think as Blu-Ray moves forward and they finalize their specs, anyone with a PS3 will continue to see their PS3 become more robust to match those new Blu-Ray specs. I know for certain some blu-ray players will not have the same fate.
> 
> With the exception of the lack of an IR remote, the PS3 is in my opinion the best blu-ray player to have currently. Especially if you want to look forward and recieve the best in the future.


The specs are finalized. There was 1.0 then 1.1 and 2.0 coming. Its called improving. Just like with software, cause after all that is what it is. My PS3 gets new upgrades all the time to add new features and new technology. If other machines and formats can't improve, well then I guess those who bought didn't do their homework.


----------



## ebaltz

Cholly said:


> If you've been watching prices at all, you'd see that there has been a recent reversal in Blu-ray Disc player pricing. A month ago you could find Blu-ray Disc players for under $300 at most major retailers. Now the price is $350 plus. The $399 Sony PS3 is probably the best buy today, because it is level 1.1 compatible and a very good game console as well. On the downside: accepts only a Bluetooth remote (IR capability supposedly coming in the next generation PS3 later this year), also won't play most if any PS2 games.
> 
> Blu-ray Disc is not technologically superior to HD DVD, except for disc capacity. BDA is only now embracing features that have been standard in HD DVD since day one. Why, then, is HD DVD apparently doomed? As I've said before, it's all about the money. Although there are many manufacturers in the BDA, it's still Sony and Disney that have made the format the likely winner. When you have a couple of 600 pound gorillas calling the shots, you're inclined to listen.


Incorrect an about every account. Prices keep coming down and so what if they don't any more, for quality their is a floor eventually. Bought a car for under $10k lately?

There is a USB dongle that lets you use a regular or universal remote with the PS3 if you insist, the point is Bluetooth is better technology and unversal remote makers will be coming out with their versions in no time. Should it still support people who like a knob on the front to change channels? The PS3 plays virtually EVERY PS2 game. I play mine all the time no problem. Also plays PS1 games and you can use your PSP with it. Blu-disc are superior in almost every way to HD DVD, more layer capacity more capacity per layer, scratch coating etc...Manufactures have to limit content size for HD DVD not blu-ray and again their are way more opps for advancement.

Isn't Microsoft a 800lb gorilla? If you think not you have your head in the sand. The had to bribe Paramount to go HD DVD because they knew the format couldn't stand on its own merrits.


----------



## machavez00

Can a 1.0 player be upgraded to a 1.1 or 2.0? The PS3 is the only one I know that can be. The only thing I found was on Wikipedia and it says they can't
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_ray#Player_profiles


----------



## phat78boy

machavez00 said:


> Can a 1.0 player be upgraded to a 1.1 or 2.0? The PS3 is the only one I know that can be. The only thing I found was on Wikipedia and it says they can't
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_ray#Player_profiles


The majority of Blu-Ray players cannot. Not only that, but they have "extras" which some players use and some don't. Ethernet is one for example. While the specs might be finalized, the community is anything but together.


----------



## phat78boy

I'm sorry, but unless the Blu-Ray camp lowers fees that will allow the Blu-Ray players to be sold cheaper, they will miss their chance. I don't see Sony lowering the fees. They will maintain Blu-Ray is a "more advanced" machine and thus is more expensive. With a glutten of cheap chinese made HD-DVD players showing up at all the big box retailers this year, a lot of studios will be re-evaluating their positions again this time next year. 

A large percentage of the small percentage of people who are actually cutting edge and don't care about price already have one or both systems. The people being fought for now are the people who will only go if the price is right. These people will purchase the cheaper player over the more expensive one that has all their movies. Neither system has won yet. If we see 99$ Blu-ray players, they will all but be assured to kill off HD-DVD. I just think Sony is to high on themselves to let that happen.


----------



## machavez00

phat78boy said:


> I'm sorry, but unless the Blu-Ray camp lowers fees that will allow the Blu-Ray players to be sold cheaper, they will miss their chance. I don't see Sony lowering the fees. They will maintain Blu-Ray is a "more advanced" machine and thus is more expensive. With a glutten of cheap chinese made HD-DVD players showing up at all the big box retailers this year, a lot of studios will be re-evaluating their positions again this time next year.
> 
> A large percentage of the small percentage of people who are actually cutting edge and don't care about price already have one or both systems. The people being fought for now are the people who will only go if the price is right. These people will purchase the cheaper player over the more expensive one that has all their movies. Neither system has won yet. If we see 99$ Blu-ray players, they will all but be assured to kill off HD-DVD. I just think Sony is to high on themselves to let that happen.


don't forget that the spec China has adopted, CHD DVD, will play HD DVDs, but not BluRay. A billion customers is hard to ignore, and HD DVDs are region free


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Cholly said:


> When you have a couple of 600 pound gorillas calling the shots, you're inclined to listen.


Or perhaps keep all your bananas for yourself....Sony will never get a dime from me.


----------



## Mark Holtz

From DailyTech:

*HD DVD Group Cancels CES Press Conference, 1:1 Meetings*


> Based on the timing of the Warner Home Video announcement today, the HD DVD Promotional Group has decided to cancel 1:1 press meetings at CES, in addition to the press conference that was scheduled for Sunday evening. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause&#8230;


FULL ARTICLE HERE


----------



## DCSholtis

Damn!! Tom won't be able to get it now no matter how hard he tries either one on one or in a group.


----------



## DCSholtis

tgr131 said:


> Thanks for the kind words... I do feel a _little_ better...


You have lost NOTHING bro!!! Read my virtual lips...I M P O R T S....


----------



## Lord Vader

AlbertZeroK said:


> I don't know about specs or features, but I do know the PS3 is the most popular of Blu-Ray player. It also has a very heavy set of features, processing power, memory and a hard drive. I think as Blu-Ray moves forward and they finalize their specs, anyone with a PS3 will continue to see their PS3 become more robust to match those new Blu-Ray specs. I know for certain some blu-ray players will not have the same fate.
> 
> With the exception of the lack of an IR remote, the PS3 is in my opinion the best blu-ray player to have currently. Especially if you want to look forward and recieve the best in the future.


The PS3, unlike standalone BD players, does have its limitations. I'm not disputing its popularity, but as top notch BD players come out, the PS3 will decrease in its popularity. If you browse our sister forum, AVS, you'll find more and more people singing the praises of players like the Panasonic BD30, which many consider to be the single best Blu-Ray player out there. It does have features that even the PS3 lacks.


----------



## bonscott

HD DVD Players coming soon to a garage sale near you.


----------



## Drew2k

I guess I'll be waiting to buy a Blu-Ray player until I can get one with the latest standard (2.0, I guess) with IR support and the ability to be updated via Ethernet ... and costs less than $400. (And isn't a game console. Not interested in the PS3.)

For all the Blu-Ray guys and gals out there, what's your best guess on how long will that wait will be?


----------



## harsh

Sorry people for the OT.


Cholly said:


> Perhaps my memory is a bit hazy.


Indeed.

What you're remembering the the Atarian version of the story.

Here's an interview: http://www.heartbone.com/comphist/JayMiner.html


----------



## chris0

Carl Spock said:


> I will win when I buy a Blu-ray player this year. I was planning to well before Warner's recent decision. I am just waiting for them to come down more in price. After that I can enjoy _Casino Royale _in HD. That's winning to me.


I own both formats, and Casino Royale provided one of the best HDM experiences I've had.


----------



## chris0

Drew2k said:


> I guess I'll be waiting to buy a Blu-Ray player until I can get one with the latest standard (2.0, I guess) with IR support and the ability to be updated via Ethernet ... and costs less than $400. (And isn't a game console. Not interested in the PS3.)
> 
> For all the Blu-Ray guys and gals out there, what's your best guess on how long will that wait will be?


I'd guess mid-year. Could be sooner, depends on what's introduced at CES.


----------



## keith_benedict

tgr131 said:


> I really like this attitude. However, I can't help but feeling that I lost. I got an HD-A3 for Christmas, and just peeled the UPC off the box to send in for my freebies, rendering it non returnable. I think that by the end of 2008, I will have an expensive upconverting DVD player.
> 
> Quite frankly, I didn't think HD-DVD would win, but I thought it would thrive for several more years.


I'm in the same boat as you except I haven't taken the UPC label off. I was given an HD-A30 for Christmas. It was purchased from an online retailer that doesn't allow returns of opened DVD players. The sad things is that I already have a great upscaling DVD player in the Oppo 970. What on earth do I need 2 for?


----------



## Cholly

ebaltz said:


> Incorrect an about every account. Prices keep coming down and so what if they don't any more, for quality their is a floor eventually. Bought a car for under $10k lately?
> 
> There is a USB dongle that lets you use a regular or universal remote with the PS3 if you insist, the point is Bluetooth is better technology and unversal remote makers will be coming out with their versions in no time. Should it still support people who like a knob on the front to change channels? The PS3 plays virtually EVERY PS2 game. I play mine all the time no problem. Also plays PS1 games and you can use your PSP with it. Blu-disc are superior in almost every way to HD DVD, more layer capacity more capacity per layer, scratch coating etc...Manufactures have to limit content size for HD DVD not blu-ray and again their are way more opps for advancement.
> 
> Isn't Microsoft a 800lb gorilla? If you think not you have your head in the sand. The had to bribe Paramount to go HD DVD because they knew the format couldn't stand on its own merrits.


You apparently have not been doing your homework. A few weeks ago, CC, WalMart and BB had soon to be obsolete Sony BDP-300 and 301 players for $299 or less. They are now $349-$399. Check their web sites. Also, the "5 free DVD" promo is laughable. Only a few titles are really worthwhile having.

The disadvantages I cited about the PS3 are true. I wasn't aware of a USB dongle being available for use with universal remotes. And yes, "real soon now", you'll be able to buy remotes that support both Bluetooth and IR. You'll also be able to buy a PS3 that is IR enabled. However, that is not the case today.

While your PS3 will play most PS2 games, the 40 GB. $399 PS3 now being promoted will not. Sony left out support for PS2 in that model. Read the ads and specs.

Finally: regarding Microsoft -- do you in all honesty think that Microsoft has that much influence in the standalone DVD player market, or for that matter in DVD titles? Granted, they are a strong presence in the HD DVD camp, but not overwhelmingly so, like Sony and Disney are in the Blu-ray Disc camp. The Paramount affair is no different than Sony's buying into Target and Blockbuster. It's simply shmoozing, providing ad support and the like.

Don't get me wrong. I'm very much interested in getting a Blu-ray Disc player, but I won't do so until there are an abundance of new model players (that support the proposed new BDA standards) at a reasonable price.(in the $250 or less range). I can't justify a PS3 on the big screen TV in our family room. In the meantime, if I want to watch Ice Age, Pirates of the Caribean or any other Disney/Pixar or Fox movies, I can watch them upconverted on my HD DVD player. They look noticeably better on my 55 inch 720p RP LCD TV than they did with my Panasonic progressive scan DVD player.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Cholly said:


> The disadvantages I cited about the PS3 are true. I wasn't aware of a USB dongle being available for use with universal remotes. And yes, "real soon now", you'll be able to buy remotes that support both Bluetooth and IR. You'll also be able to buy a PS3 that is IR enabled. However, that is not the case today.
> 
> While your PS3 will play most PS2 games, the 40 GB. $399 PS3 now being promoted will not. Sony left out support for PS2 in that model. Read the ads and specs.


First, the IR remote does not turn on and off the device, you have no PS button. But for pause, play, etc, it works okay. We just use the bluetooth remote even with having the Harmony programmed all up.

Second, your information on the PS3 and PS2 compatibility is wrong. There are basically two versions of the PS3. The 20G/60G and the 40G/80G. The first version (20G/60G) had in essense a PS2 built in and did PS2 emulation in hardware. The second version (40G/80G) relies on the processing power of the 7 cores in the PS3 to emulate the PS2 hardware. Now I've heard all kinds of compatibility numbers and personally prefer hardware emulation over software emulation, but I'll have to admit, the new version of the PS3 is working fine for my handful of PS2 games. But you can definitely play the vast majority of PS2 games on ANY PS3 hardware. Although I can understand the preference of the hardware over software emulation.

I'm sticking with my PS3 - for the cost, I think it's a great product considering it's capabilities and price point over a stand alone.


----------



## chris0

Cholly said:


> If you've been watching prices at all, you'd see that there has been a recent reversal in Blu-ray Disc player pricing. A month ago you could find Blu-ray Disc players for under $300 at most major retailers. Now the price is $350 plus.


It's not unusual for prices to go down during Christmas time and go back up afterwards. I don't think it's a reversal so much as it's just not on sale anymore. Prices will go down, they always do.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Well, 
Lets see who long before Sony, comes up with really cool Security features. So they can tell us how to watch our DVD's both old and New. My only problem with the BD was Sony being in charge, and getting creative with all sorts of tracking features to make sure I am watching what they consider properly CopyRighted Material. With HD-DVD out there, we have been able to by pass the Forced 1.3 HDMI spec, with its built in CopyRight sniffer, With the another Nail in the coffin of HD, the 800ton Gorrilla of Sony will come up with even more, sniffer and sypware to load on our machines to help "Protect" us.


----------



## ebaltz

GrumpyBear said:


> Well,
> Lets see who long before Sony, comes up with really cool Security features. So they can tell us how to watch our DVD's both old and New. My only problem with the BD was Sony being in charge, and getting creative with all sorts of tracking features to make sure I am watching what they consider properly CopyRighted Material. With HD-DVD out there, we have been able to by pass the Forced 1.3 HDMI spec, with its built in CopyRight sniffer, With the another Nail in the coffin of HD, the 800ton Gorrilla of Sony will come up with even more, sniffer and sypware to load on our machines to help "Protect" us.


And I gather you trust Microsoft (who is now controlling HD DVD with Toshiba). Companies of complete trust huh?

You are completely irrational and paranoid. Just sour grapes I gather. Boo hoo for you.


----------



## ebaltz

Mark Holtz said:


> From DailyTech:
> 
> *HD DVD Group Cancels CES Press Conference, 1:1 Meetings*FULL ARTICLE HERE


Most major publication and news organizations have had stories basically saying this is the beginning of the end for HD DVD, accept it or not DUD fanboys, it will soon be the cold reality for you and accept it or not, it won't change the truth.


----------



## machavez00

TSST TSST! ebaltz, don't make Chris call Cesar Milan on you.


----------



## HIPAR

When did the industry insiders really know this was coming?

--- CHAS


----------



## Drew2k

ebaltz said:


> Most major publication and news organizations have had stories basically saying this is the beginning of the end for HD DVD, accept it or not DUD fanboys, it will soon be the cold reality for you and accept it or not, it won't change the truth.


I thought it didn't matter to you? Yet here you are working overtime to get everyone to run out and buy a Blu-Ray player! Trying to inccrease those sales numbers for Blu-Ray just in case the war *isn't* over?! 



ebaltz said:


> Its over. Move on. Its just a matter of time now, so move to the winner now, like 2/3s of people already have in the HD market. *Or, keep waisting your money, doesn't matter to me.* I am and have been Blu and never worried about it because I knew it would win, now Warner knew the writing was on the wall and decided to move now rather than later and clean-up while the last hold-outs shoot themselves in the foot.


----------



## Steve Mehs

A little irony here, maybe this is old, but I don't watch this channel much. I'm sitting here watching Robocop 3 on Universal HD and what commercial just got done playing, a promotional clip for Blu Ray Disc. What would the folks at the HD DVD alliance think if they knew one of their strongest backers is advertising the competition on their own channel.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ebaltz said:


> And I gather you trust Microsoft (who is now controlling HD DVD with Toshiba). Companies of complete trust huh?
> 
> You are completely irrational and paranoid. Just sour grapes I gather. Boo hoo for you.


You are a very wound tight person aren't you! All you have to do is look at Sony's history, spyware on CD's, creating tracks to keep you from copying your OWN cd's, trying to force EVERYBODY to use HDMI, where they want to embedded copyright sniffer's. I haven't bought into either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray so I have no sour grapes. I wont buy into either one. I will buy only after there is ONE left standing, and the prices on both the DVD's and the Player's come down. Dual formats hurt, but it was helping driving the prices into afforable status. With HD 
taking another hit, there is no reason for the prices to come down for awhile.

You act like Sony is some kind of Savior or something for us, I would rather but the trust in companies like INTEL, and Toshiba with little or no vested interest in in keeping the Prices of the Movie Media falsely inflated, over those Like Sony who have a HUGE vested interest in controlling of the Media itself.

Now go an run around in circles foaming, at the mouth, screaming I am right, I am right. You are the only one listening.


----------



## DCSholtis

I suggest you all read this from the HD forums:

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=33917

Apparently there was to be an announcement of Warner AND Fox going HD DVD exclusive. Warner asked the HD DVD group to talk to Fox and strike a deal. BDA got wind of the impending deal paid Fox reportedly around $500 million to stay. This is when Warner decided to switch sides. Up until the last week or so they were heading toward HD DVD exclusivity. It's an interesting post/read.


----------



## DBS Commando

DCSholtis said:


> I suggest you all read this from the HD forums:
> 
> http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=33917
> 
> Apparently there was to be an announcement of Warner AND Fox going HD DVD exclusive. Warner asked the HD DVD group to talk to Fox and strike a deal. BDA got wind of the impending deal paid Fox reportedly around $500 million to stay. This is when Warner decided to switch sides. Up until the last week or so they were heading toward HD DVD exclusivity. It's an interesting post/read.


Indeed. . .


----------



## elaclair

DBS Commando said:


> Indeed. . .


It is an interesting read, especially since it's on a pro-HD-DVD board. Warner has been stating for months that it would be looking very closely at Q4 and holiday sales to make their decision. With Blu-Ray selling at 3 to 1 during the last quarter, and 7 to 3 on holiday numbers, there is no way that Warner would be looking to go HD-DVD exclusive. Most insiders didn't expect an announcement 'til after CES, so their "pre-emptive" notification is a bit of a surprise, but only in it's timing.


----------



## Mark Holtz

Now, look at it from my end... I'm still on standard-def television and standard DVD at the moment. I am expecting 42" Hi-Def TVs to hit $500 by the end of the year. I had been on the sidelines for ages now in regards to the HiDef disc wars. To see Warner go BluRay is a interesting sign. 

However, what's with all these profiles? I'm looking at the Wikipedia article, and it would be best for me to wait until the BD-Live players comes out.


----------



## machavez00

Mark Holtz said:


> Now, look at it from my end... I'm still on standard-def television and standard DVD at the moment. I am expecting 42" Hi-Def TVs to hit $500 by the end of the year. I had been on the sidelines for ages now in regards to the HiDef disc wars. To see Warner go BluRay is a interesting sign.
> 
> However, what's with all these profiles? I'm looking at the Wikipedia article, and it would be best for me to wait until the BD-Live players comes out.


The are problems with some of the 1.0 players and the newer releases. They require profile 1.1


----------



## GrumpyBear

I think the timing in the long run is actually a good thing. It might have caught the HD-DVD guys off guard, but better to say it now, instead of letting them make some huge announcement and then Look like fools when Warner makes the announcement after CES. Why let them look bad if you don't have too? You may need some of those CEO's later on, in business life.

The comment that strikes me most in all this, is the "window of opportunity" for HD media. Makes you wonder if we all wont be pointing and laughing at all those who have committed big dollars to Blu-Ray wont end up like all the Laserdisc people when DVD took over by storm.

One format is cool, but at $400 plus, it will he a HARD sell, to get people to buy a BD, instead of a upconverted DVD player, in large volume. Love how Blu-Ray devices, changed wording in there commercials, making using High Def on Blu-Ray.

I will continue to wait, may pick up a HD-A3 if they drop quickly, and use it for a upconverted dvd, I still don't have one yet.

Lets see what happens now with DRM mania, between that, High Prices, maybe BD will be a bump in the Road just like Laserdisc.


----------



## bt-rtp

A friend of mine bought a HD-A3 to upconvert his SD DVDs. He found that the HD-A3 honors a protection mechanism on some newer DVDs that disabled upconversion. An error message appears stating "License enforcement prevents upconverion of this DVD to any format other than 480i". Man is he pissed off...

I can't wait for the next generation, dual format DVD player from Oppo Digital. I'm hoping that it will have an option to ignore this mechanism.



GrumpyBear said:


> I think the timing in the long run is actually a good thing. It might have caught the HD-DVD guys off guard, but better to say it now, instead of letting them make some huge announcement and then Look like fools when Warner makes the announcement after CES. Why let them look bad if you don't have too? You may need some of those CEO's later on, in business life.
> 
> The comment that strikes me most in all this, is the "window of opportunity" for HD media. Makes you wonder if we all wont be pointing and laughing at all those who have committed big dollars to Blu-Ray wont end up like all the Laserdisc people when DVD took over by storm.
> 
> One format is cool, but at $400 plus, it will he a HARD sell, to get people to buy a BD, instead of a upconverted DVD player, in large volume. Love how Blu-Ray devices, changed wording in there commercials, making using High Def on Blu-Ray.
> 
> I will continue to wait, may pick up a HD-A3 if they drop quickly, and use it for a upconverted dvd, I still don't have one yet.
> 
> Lets see what happens now with DRM mania, between that, High Prices, maybe BD will be a bump in the Road just like Laserdisc.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

All things considered, I find the timing of Warner's decision to be strange.

There are lots of places to buy HD and Blu ray... but take a look at Best Buy online.

DVD -> 65702
HD DVD -> 400
Blu ray -> 458

Those are the total number of titles available in the indicated formats for order at Best Buy's Web site. So Blu ray is about 0.7 % of what DVD has available. Even if every single HD DVD customer instantly became a Blu ray customer and all the movies were suddenly available in Blu ray and the total amount of product doubled... we would be talking about 1.5% of the movie market.

If we had one choice in the beginning, that would be fine... but since folks are already divided into two camps, cutting one of them off right now (no matter which way Warner had gone) makes no sense. It actually would make more sense for other companies like Disney and FOX to start making HD and Blu ray to help expand the number of available titles on both formats and see faster adoption of both HD formats.

IF either camp, HD or Blu ray, truly wanted to make a dent in the market... they would have to release a lot more movies and/or stop releasing in the regular DVD format. They really weren't competing against each other as much as they were regular DVDs... and that battle was being lost by a wide margin by both HD DVD and Blu ray.

I don't see Blu ray doubling their business this year (nor would I have seen HD DVD do it either)... especially when one side "losing" means a bunch of people would have to buy another player in order to go to the other format... when the much more attractive option to those on the "losing" side is to just go back to buying regular DVDs again.

If Blu ray players became free, that would be different... but that isn't going to happen... and for the record, my above thoughts would be 100% the same if the shoe went the other direction and HD DVD had gotten the windfall good news and people were saying Blu ray was dead.

Bottom line for me is that since we were already in a "war" enough people have picked a side to make them loyal and willing to sit out to make sure... think about it like this, if you picked HD DVD and it has lost... how confident are you that your next purchase of Blu ray will be right? Or would you rather sit and see if that will make it before you make another jump?


----------



## GrumpyBear

bt-rtp said:


> A friend of mine bought a HD-A3 to upconvert his SD DVDs. He found that the HD-A3 honors a protection mechanism on some newer DVDs that disabled upconversion. An error message appears stating "License enforcement prevents upconverion of this DVD to any format other than 480i". Man is he pissed off...
> 
> I can't wait for the next generation, dual format DVD player from Oppo Digital. I'm hoping that it will have an option to ignore this mechanism.


Ok maybe a HD-A2, will avoid the DRM police at all cost. Nice to know, movie makers wont let me watch the movies I pay for the way I want to, unless I buy High cost toy's that may or may not be around in just a few years. I would really laugh if it was a Sony released Movie, they area all doing it, but.....
If this Warner Bros movie is really the death nail of HD-DVD, expect more of this DRM kind of control.


----------



## ebaltz

Drew2k said:


> I thought it didn't matter to you? Yet here you are working overtime to get everyone to run out and buy a Blu-Ray player! Trying to inccrease those sales numbers for Blu-Ray just in case the war *isn't* over?!


It doesn't, if people want to waste their money, that's their business. I am happy. Just trying to help out the poor and mis-guided among us with reality.


----------



## brian188

If you haven't seen Sony Bluray on a Sony HDTV.. you haven't seen HD.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

brian188 said:


> If you haven't seen Sony Bluray on a Sony HDTV.. you haven't seen HD.


Now Sony appears to be advertising in this thread...


----------



## smiddy

I haven't seen anything too constructive here in a while.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I haven't seen anything too constructive here in a while.


I haven't heard of any "war" in history that resulted in anything except lots of casualties and (ultimately) losers on both sides. This one surely is no different.


----------



## Carl Spock

smiddy said:


> I haven't seen anything too constructive here in a while.


Oh, I don't know. I think there's room for more crowing. 

Since the subject has been pretty much exhausted, how about a joke? Over on TrekBBS I run a caption contest. It's your typical stuff: I post a couple of Star Trek screen caps, people make funny captions, etc. I changed it out yesterday morning. Within an hour, one of my regulars came up with captions that combined both pictures into one joke, addressing the news of the day. Funny stuff.

Star Trek: Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD


----------



## BubblePuppy

Carl Spock said:


> Oh, I don't know. I think there's room for more crowing.
> 
> Since the subject has been pretty much exhausted, how about a joke? Over on TrekBBS I run a caption contest. It's your typical stuff: I post a couple of Star Trek screen caps, people make funny captions, etc. I changed it out yesterday morning. Within an hour, one of my regulars came up with captions that combined both pictures into one joke, addressing the news of the day. Funny stuff.
> 
> Star Trek: Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD


I just spit coffee all over my key board!!!!

Hilarious stuff.

I think you are going owe alot of people new key boards. !rolling


----------



## Stuart Sweet

There are other forums besides this one?


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> All things considered, I find the timing of Warner's decision to be strange.
> 
> There are lots of places to buy HD and Blu ray... but take a look at Best Buy online.
> 
> DVD -> 65702
> HD DVD -> 400
> Blu ray -> 458
> 
> Those are the total number of titles available in the indicated formats for order at Best Buy's Web site. So Blu ray is about 0.7 % of what DVD has available. Even if every single HD DVD customer instantly became a Blu ray customer and all the movies were suddenly available in Blu ray and the total amount of product doubled... we would be talking about 1.5% of the movie market.
> 
> If we had one choice in the beginning, that would be fine... but since folks are already divided into two camps, cutting one of them off right now (no matter which way Warner had gone) makes no sense. It actually would make more sense for other companies like Disney and FOX to start making HD and Blu ray to help expand the number of available titles on both formats and see faster adoption of both HD formats.
> 
> IF either camp, HD or Blu ray, truly wanted to make a dent in the market... they would have to release a lot more movies and/or stop releasing in the regular DVD format. They really weren't competing against each other as much as they were regular DVDs... and that battle was being lost by a wide margin by both HD DVD and Blu ray.
> 
> I don't see Blu ray doubling their business this year (nor would I have seen HD DVD do it either)... especially when one side "losing" means a bunch of people would have to buy another player in order to go to the other format... when the much more attractive option to those on the "losing" side is to just go back to buying regular DVDs again.
> 
> If Blu ray players became free, that would be different... but that isn't going to happen... and for the record, my above thoughts would be 100% the same if the shoe went the other direction and HD DVD had gotten the windfall good news and people were saying Blu ray was dead.
> 
> Bottom line for me is that since we were already in a "war" enough people have picked a side to make them loyal and willing to sit out to make sure... think about it like this, if you picked HD DVD and it has lost... how confident are you that your next purchase of Blu ray will be right? Or would you rather sit and see if that will make it before you make another jump?


I agree with many of your points but the format war was bad for business to start with so, as I see it, the sooner it ends the more likely people are to start adopting the technology and improve it's chances of reaching critical mass to start really competing with SD DVDs. For every person here who has bought one or the other there are millions more who won't buy either until all new releases (at a minimum) are in ONE format. These are the people who likely remember trying to rent tapes when you had to make sure the title you wanted was in VHS or BETA.

As to just going back to SD DVDs, now that I have seen what BD looks like and have a taste for it the idea of going back to SD DVDs is not an attractive option at all. I'm sure I'd feel the same if I had an HD-DVD player instead of a PS3.

To the Sony haters: Not everything they've ever done is bad. (I'm not going into this to convince you that Blu-Ray should be the only format, that's probably beyond hope and I'm not sure I believe it myself.) BETA (and particularly Super Beta Hi-Fi) really was a better format than VHS for quality, speed, editing, etc. and if you look at home gaming they did one thing that Ninetendo and others always refused to do and it changed the industry - they made a second generation console (and now a 3rd gen) that was backward compatible!! That was a huge deal when PS2 released and it's pressured the likes of Nintendo and MS to do the same thing. I understand they've also done some unkewl stuff (I bought the DMB disk with the trojan horse DRM on it and lived through that) and I certainly don't understand their love for DRM after being sued by the MPAA and others over the Betamax, but that doesn't mean they don't make some good products - nor does it make them the axis of evil.

For the record: I obtained the PS3, not HD-DVD because I figured I would still have a great game console that browses the internet, etc. even if BD loses, the war goes on forever, or neither format really takes off and it goes the way of the LD.


----------



## Steve Mehs

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now Sony appears to be advertising in this thread...


But if the statement was made, if you haven't seen HD DVD on a Toshiba HDTV, you haven't seen HD. That would have been A-OK, right? Your bitterness is getting old. Had Warner went with HD DVD would you feel the same way, would you be boycotting and writing letters, or is it only because your side didn't win? There are many products (electronics and non) that I liked but never really took off, it's part of life and part of business, just do the mature thing and quit whining and deal with it. HD DVD is more then likely not going to make it, accept that fact. The sooner you do the better off you'll be.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Steve Mehs said:


> But if the statement was made, if you haven't seen HD DVD on a Toshiba HDTV, you haven't seen HD. That would have been A-OK, right? Your bitterness is getting old. Had Warner went with HD DVD would you feel the same way, would you be boycotting and writing letters, or is it only because your side didn't win? There are many products (electronics and non) that I liked but never really took off, it's part of life and part of business, just do the mature thing and quit whining and deal with it. HD DVD is more then likely not going to make it, accept that fact. The sooner you do the better off you'll be.


Actually, I think he was just poking some honest fun at someone saying you need a Sony TV to really appreciate Blu-Ray....


----------



## Tom Robertson

In the first 3 press conferences at CES today: LG, Pioneer, and Toshiba, all three are saying that declarations the war is over are premature. (Of course, Toshiba would say that.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## DCSholtis

Of course the war isn't over yet. Does anyone think that a small governmental agency called the EU won't have a say in this in the end?!! Of course they will and that's what will keep this going.


----------



## chris0

Carl Spock said:


> Oh, I don't know. I think there's room for more crowing.
> 
> Since the subject has been pretty much exhausted, how about a joke? Over on TrekBBS I run a caption contest. It's your typical stuff: I post a couple of Star Trek screen caps, people make funny captions, etc. I changed it out yesterday morning. Within an hour, one of my regulars came up with captions that combined both pictures into one joke, addressing the news of the day. Funny stuff.
> 
> Star Trek: Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD


Funny. I thought there would be a pic equating HD DVD with a red shirt, since it's the red shirts that die on away missions.


----------



## oudabashian

Tom Robertson said:


> In the first 3 press conferences at CES today: LG, Pioneer, and Toshiba, all three are saying that declarations the war is over are premature. (Of course, Toshiba would say that.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I am very curious to see if Toshiba plans to go forward with HD DVD, and if Universal and Paramount will be along for the ride. Since they both represent between 20% to 30% of the market, HD DVD will still be breathing. However, any hopes of winning the format war will be out the window, unless something very drastic eventually takes place.


----------



## mitchelljd

Nick said:


> *The HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray format war will not be
> won by either format, but by dual-format players.*
> 
> Dual format high-definition DVD players will be the norm, says research
> 
> More @ www.abiresearch.com/abiprdisplay.jsp?pressid=796


Definitely NOT, there will soon be little use for dual format players if no new HD DVD discs are being manufactured by the studios.

The costs involved to manufacture a dual format machine would be beat by market forces.

Most consumers, except those with HD DVD collections, would prefer a quality machine with lower costs. The patent use and chip costs to view both types of discs are higher.

Why would manufacturers prefer to pay for 2 sets of HD patents?

The writing is on the wall and by 2009, it will be a done deal.


----------



## mitchelljd

DCSholtis said:


> Of course the war isn't over yet. Does anyone think that a small governmental agency called the EU won't have a say in this in the end?!! Of course they will and that's what will keep this going.


Why would the EU step in? they never have on format issues. There is still DVD, hell i am sure some people even still use VHS somewhere.


----------



## Mike728

I just picked up a Sony BDP-S300 to go with my pair of Toshiba HD-A2's. I'll be damned if I'm gonna lose this war...


----------



## mrpickem

With the low cost of HD-DVD players, Toshiba may have a slight advantage at this time. Players selling around $150 easily beat best price blueray at $250.

I have a PS3 and about 7 or 8 blueray movies. The quality is simply amazing on the newer movies when played thru my older panny 50" 720p plasma...prolly even better with a true 1080p.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## Tom Robertson

Toshiba confirmed they are going forward with HD-DVD. (Of course, what else would they say.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Gonesouth

mitchelljd said:


> Why would the EU step in? they never have on format issues. There is still DVD, hell i am sure some people even still use VHS somewhere.


:shrug: There is one or two die hard Betamax users!


----------



## kmcnamara

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I haven't heard of any "war" in history that resulted in anything except lots of casualties and (ultimately) losers on both sides.


Fail.

Ever hear of WWII? Yes, lots of casualties but there were definitely winners and losers. Who won the Beta vs. VHS war? Did both sides lose? Nice try.


----------



## DCSholtis

mitchelljd said:


> Why would the EU step in? they never have on format issues. There is still DVD, hell i am sure some people even still use VHS somewhere.


Think about their issues with Microsoft and Apple now. With Microsoft being a major player with Toshiba in HD DVD and with M$ having been sued to here and back by the EU do you think they would want yet another long dragged out suit to go against them? Now back to other forums to take advantage of those fools who are now dumping their HD DVD collections.


----------



## Carl Spock

Buried by the hoopla over the announcement by Warners on Friday was this article in Video Business where CBS announced they are pleased with HD DVD sales so far.

Jan 4 - CBS to increase its release slate



> The label predicts that its first high-definition release, the Nov. 20 HD DVD release of Star Trek: Season One, will reach 100,000 units sold. That momentum has led the company to commit to releasing all subsequent Star Trek seasons on high-def, amounting to two more HD DVD titles. That is ambitious, as most major studios are not yet heavily mining TV DVD libraries for catalog titles to release in next-gen formats.
> 
> "I think that when we are looking at catalog and some sitcoms, we don't see [high-def] moving the dial that much, but with some of our sci-fi and action-adventure, it can be a very positive format change for us," said [Ken] Ross [executive VP and general manager at CBS DVD].
> 
> Nothing has been confirmed, but Ross speculates that CBS' CSI is a great upcoming candidate for HD DVD release, as "it lends itself to high-def with its magnificent effects."


We'll all see what happens here. Everything is in flux. But I can't help feel some folks are mistaking winning a battle with winning the war.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

kmcnamara said:


> Fail.
> 
> Ever hear of WWII? Yes, lots of casualties but there were definitely winners and losers. Who won the Beta vs. VHS war? Did both sides lose? Nice try.


Really...so you think there was a winner - maybe short term....but there is a long but distinguished list of losses...you want to start with the Berlin Wall.....Cold War and its costs...and other things that came as a result??? Didn't think so.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

With the recent announcement by Warner Brothers Entertainment to discontinue HD DVD new releases as of May 2008, many HD disk consumers are soul-searching about the future of any HD disk format.

Various message boards have lit up with vigorous discussion posts about the future of one format or another's future. Based on current offerings at one of the major retailers (Best Buy), here are some interesting numbers" that may hold some answers:

Standard DVD Movie Titles - 65,700
HD DVD Titles -- 400
Blu Ray Titles - 456

The big picture is that neither Blu Ray nor HD DVD has captured a significant share of the overall media market to this point - people clearly are not in a hurry to leave the standard definition DVD format (yet). There appear to be 4 reasons for this:

1) The costs of migrating to any HD disk format have not yet been enticing enough to offset the perceived advantages in either HD format to the mainstream market. Certainly Sony keeping their average players at $400+ does not encourage change. The HD DVD side has been far more aggressive in their lower-cost player pricing. Forget the PS3 numbers for now - it's a game machine that happens to play Blu Ray disks. It's not the main reason people but the darn thing. There's a reason why Blockbuster adopted Blu Ray - PS3 users tend to rent movie disks, not buy them individually. [I recently read that over 40% of PS3 users were not even aware they could watch Blu Ray movies on their game machine.]

2) Even with reported "record sales" on certain new release HD disk titles, the numbers pale in comparison with SD formats - again tied a lot to disk price. When you sell 310,000 copies in a month of the Blu Ray version of Spiderman 3, but there are 5.4 Million copies of the SD format version sold that same month, the perspective becomes clearer. The same kinds of large disparity in numbers came up with the HD DVD release of Transformers.

3) The public display of a "war" in and of itself has caused apathy and confusion. More and more publicity and press releases on "who's winning this week", as well as word-of-mouth lobbying from users in both camps only adds fuel to the fire. Early adopters have vigorously "picked sides" one way on "their format". All of this turns off many mainstream DVD viewers and potential customers - it also helps encourage the mainstream consumer decision "not to change until we see how all of this pans out".

4) Based on the slow adoption rate of either HD format, there continues to be ongoing news of additional new formats (with lower costs and new technology advantages) being released and test-marketed, particularly overseas in Asia (where the numerical consumer market is larger).

Based on all this evidence, it clearly appears that both formats have a legitimate chance to fail. How long do you really think they manufacture HD disks when only 3-4% of the public buys them? Until they hit 15-20% of market share, they are a blip on the movie disk radar.

One last point. In all of this, the behavior and business decisions of the 7 major studios have been nothing shy of deplorable. Loyalties change with the wind....we are caught in the crosshairs of their inter-industry competition&#8230;and clearly their "visions" are all about short term profits. Warner's latest decision is a prime example. Their sales numbers, especially on the HD DVD side, were growing in recent months, actually showing the best trend to date for future HD DVD sales....yet they suddenly (and based on the Toshiba response, it was indeed suddenly)...abandoned the HD DVD format. Paramount went the other way a few months ago, but basically did the same thing.

Lessons learned:

1) Sony continues to maintain high prices on equipment and media, despite every major industry guru indicating this will deter sales. Right or wrong, this is consistent with their historic "our-way-or-the-high-way" mentality on past new proprietary products. Bullying the market to adopt a format has never worked.

2) Going to the original statement about "the format war"&#8230;generally any "war" has lots of casualties, and no real winners.

3) Many "wars" are started over money, greed, and power....and this one doesn't appear to be any different.

4) The Hollywood studios are clearly propelled by nothing but immediate short term profits. For them to turn on a dime as they did in either of Paramount or Warner's cases demonstrates their true motivation. Based on this mindset, if Blu Ray sales don't triple or more the next few months, maybe they will be dropped entirely by some of the studios.

Based on all this, we clearly have been left to wonder - where will we be in a year from now in the HD disk format? The evidence seems to show that NO ONE can realistically predict the answer. We are now in an "every-man-for-himself" historical timeframe when it comes to the future of HD disks.


----------



## Drew2k

mitchelljd said:


> Definitely NOT, there will soon be little use for dual format players if no new HD DVD discs are being manufactured by the studios.


Are you forgetting about the huge international market, where studios that sell exclusively on Blu Ray in the United States are selling HD-DVD overseas? Are thse studios suddenly going to stop HD-DVD shipments abroad?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Drew2k said:


> Are you forgetting about the huge international market, where studios that sell exclusively on Blu Ray in the United States are selling HD-DVD overseas? Are thse studios suddenly going to stop HD-DVD shipments abroad?


That brings up the additional question... When HD DVD vs Blu ray movie sales ratios are calculated in the US... were imports counted? I know there are many Blu ray "exclusives" available from Europe in HD DVD format... so folks that have chosen HD DVD can still get many of the Blu movies too.

That could (maybe not, who knows) be an interesting measure. I had not dipped into the import market yet, but if the war prolonged, and Disney/FOX didn't come on over to HD DVD then I would probably have started looking seriously at importing.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> With the recent announcement by Warner Brothers Entertainment to discontinue HD DVD new releases as of May 2008, many HD disk consumers are soul-searching about the future of any HD disk format.
> 
> Various message boards have lit up with vigorous discussion posts about the future of one format or another's future. Based on current offerings at one of the major retailers (Best Buy), here are some interesting numbers" that may hold some answers:
> 
> Standard DVD Movie Titles - 65,700
> HD DVD Titles -- 400
> Blu Ray Titles - 456
> 
> The big picture is that neither Blu Ray nor HD DVD has captured a significant share of the overall media market to this point - people clearly are not in a hurry to leave the standard definition DVD format (yet).


It's like you read my mind... I posted these numbers (I had 65702 and 458 in my counts when I checked Best Buy) yesterday in this very thread 

When you crunch everything and compare the actual market... neither side really wins.. and if the "losing" side chooses to go back to the DVD market as many have professed they will do... then there is potentially no net gain by Warner going Blu ray exclusive.

The next month or two could be interesting.


----------



## Carl Spock

HDMe said:


> were imports counted?


I would doubt it but speaking of imports, a very interesting developement will be China. The government approved hi-def system will be a Chinese variation of HD DVD. There won't be a format war in China. The Chinese will also build inexpensive players; we already know that from all the other goods in our houses. What happens when Chinese hardware and discs are available here?

That's a billion people. The 500 titles and the paultry US sales of BOTH formats will be laughable compared to what is sold in China as that country comes on line.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HDMe said:


> It's like you read my mind... I posted these numbers (I had 65702 and 458 in my counts when I checked Best Buy) yesterday in this very thread
> 
> The next month or two could be interesting.


Golly gee Batman...we're having the same thoughts on this topic!  :lol:


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I haven't heard of any "war" in history that resulted in anything except lots of casualties and (ultimately) losers on both sides. This one surely is no different.


Perpetuation then, eh? OK, I'll shut up then.


----------



## chrpai

Sony and Toshiba are fighting over scraps anyways. In a few more years, after a couple more iterations of compression, bandwidth and storage improvements, the DVD/HD-DVD/BlueRayDisc is going to go the way of the Compact Disc. Once I can watch all my movies via Netflix, Xbox Live, DirecTV PPV/DoD, Apple iTunes store whatever I won't need any of these silver discs cluttering up my house anymore.


----------



## smiddy

Carl Spock said:


> Oh, I don't know. I think there's room for more crowing.
> 
> Since the subject has been pretty much exhausted, how about a joke? Over on TrekBBS I run a caption contest. It's your typical stuff: I post a couple of Star Trek screen caps, people make funny captions, etc. I changed it out yesterday morning. Within an hour, one of my regulars came up with captions that combined both pictures into one joke, addressing the news of the day. Funny stuff.
> 
> Star Trek: Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD


Yep, that is pretty funny, thanks for putting some levity back into the mood!


----------



## smiddy

Stuart Sweet said:


> There are other forums besides this one?


!rolling Not that I've been on...


----------



## smiddy

I declare that there is no war, that it is a fabrication of the media and a few tired souls hurting from the media hype in either direction. It is what it is and you can choose either format or both and use them to enjoy yourself or you can argue about who's male body parts are bigger than who's, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things unless you take it personally. Which life is too short to do, so lets all get some rest and enjoy the high definition as we get it...and stop bickering, please!?


----------



## machavez00

Carl Spock said:


> I would doubt it but speaking of imports, a very interesting developement will be China. The government approved hi-def system will be a Chinese variation of HD DVD. There won't be a format war in China. The Chinese will also build inexpensive players; we already know that from all the other goods in our houses. What happens when Chinese hardware and discs are available here?
> 
> That's a billion people. The 500 titles and the paultry US sales of BOTH formats will be laughable compared to what is sold in China as that country comes on line.


glad to see some agree with me on the China market
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1371109&postcount=698


----------



## Carl Spock

That's now 2 billion people.


----------



## DCSholtis

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Golly gee Batman...we're having the same thoughts on this topic!  :lol:


He's not Batman check his sig.


----------



## ebaltz

Pretty clear trend and graph of the slaughter:

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/


----------



## Carl Spock

^ Damn. I thought it would be of your testosterone count, shooting up off the graph.


----------



## jutley

Carl Spock said:


> ^ Damn. I thought it would be of your testosterone count, shooting up off the graph.


!rolling


----------



## Drew2k

I didn't look closely past the first graph, but what is this measuiring? Sales of the media (HD-DVD discs versus BluRay discs), or sales of players?

What are "top ten products"?

On rows 3 to 6 of the graph, the top of the info is cut off when I mouse over a "cell" in the graph.

I'm a little confused by this graph that seems to only be showing the "winner" on a daily basis ... wouldn't annual totals be more significant? Here's why I ask: In a 10 day period, Product X outsells product Y on 8 specific days, with 50 of product X but 25 of Product Y sold each day. On the final 2 days 1000 units of Product Y are sold to only 200 of Product X each day. If you only look at daily winners, you can say Product X outsells Product Y 8 days out of 10, but if more of Product Y is solder overall, isn't the first "stat" meaningless, since Product Y outsold Product X over the entire time span?

Also, what is the source of this data? Amazon.com sales only?


----------



## Cholly

ebaltz said:


> Pretty clear trend and graph of the slaughter:
> 
> http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/


Interesting report, but if you look at the 30 day graph, it's pretty close to parity up until this month, where Blu-ray Disc sales show a greater percentage of total sales.
There's no doubt in my mind that Warner's decision will hurt HD DVD and help Blu-ray Disc, at least in the USA. That being said, I think Warner's decision was premature,, particularly in the light of the fact that HD DVD's can be manufactured on existing DVD lines, while Blu-ray Disc DVD;s require new equipment.

:soapbox: :uglyhamme Listen up, *everyone!* I, for one, am tired of the fanboy rants from both camps!
As I've said in the past, each format has a lot to offer. The one thing I find troubling about Blu-ray Disc is that it is still a work in progress. 
It won't be until BDA profile 2.0 players are available on the market that Blu-Ray Disc players exhibit the same features that were available on HD DVD from day one. Once players are generally available that will support 1080p/120 fps and suppport for 24 fps movies, the market will become more stable. 
I'm looking forward to the day when profile 2.0 Blu-ray Disc players will be available in the sub-$300 price range. Until then, I'll wait.


----------



## phat78boy

Cholly said:


> Interesting report, but if you look at the 30 day graph, it's pretty close to parity up until this month, where Blu-ray Disc sales show a greater percentage of total sales.
> There's no doubt in my mind that Warner's decision will hurt HD DVD and help Blu-ray Disc, at least in the USA. That being said, I think Warner's decision was premature,, particularly in the light of the fact that HD DVD's can be manufactured on existing DVD lines, while Blu-ray Disc DVD;s require new equipment.
> 
> :soapbox: :uglyhamme Listen up, *everyone!* I, for one, am tired of the fanboy rants from both camps!
> As I've said in the past, each format has a lot to offer. The one thing I find troubling about Blu-ray Disc is that it is still a work in progress.
> It won't be until BDA profile 2.0 players are available on the market that Blu-Ray Disc players exhibit the same features that were available on HD DVD from day one. Once players are generally available that will support 1080p/120 fps and suppport for 24 fps movies, the market will become more stable.
> I'm looking forward to the day when profile 2.0 Blu-ray Disc players will be available in the sub-$300 price range. Until then, I'll wait.


That is my only problem with Blu-Ray. I don't like the fact that you can buy a player that won't be able to use certain functions on certain movie discs. Not only that, but it should have been a mandate from day 1 to have ethernet on the players. Knowing you would need to update firmware and not giving users an easy way to do it is poor business. The added cost of ethernet would not have hurt their bottom line at all. Having customers call and complain because they bought a movie for features they couldn't use will.

The main reason I like HD-DVD over Blu-Ray at this point is that they are uniform. One player can do anything another can. Being cheaper doesn't hurt either.


----------



## Carl Spock

Sony has a website up dedicated to their product showing at CES. No new Blu-ray players. In fact, it looks like the BDP-500 is officially discontinued. Not surprising.

Nor is it unusual they wouldn't show their hand at CE Show. They generally introduce their new products in the spring. Still, I was hoping for a peek.


----------



## ebaltz

phat78boy said:


> That is my only problem with Blu-Ray. I don't like the fact that you can buy a player that won't be able to use certain functions on certain movie discs. Not only that, but it should have been a mandate from day 1 to have ethernet on the players. Knowing you would need to update firmware and not giving users an easy way to do it is poor business. The added cost of ethernet would not have hurt their bottom line at all. Having customers call and complain because they bought a movie for features they couldn't use will.
> 
> The main reason I like HD-DVD over Blu-Ray at this point is that they are uniform. One player can do anything another can. Being cheaper doesn't hurt either.


and this is important to you because you want to buy many different players?

Get a PS3 and you are future proof.


----------



## HIPAR

My HD-A3 is going over to my brother. He couldn't care less if it's obsolete if he's getting it for free. For me, I'm looking for a good deal on one of those 'unfinished' Blu-Rays.

--- CHAS


----------



## Mike728

HIPAR said:


> My HD-A3 is going over to my brother. He couldn't care less if it's obsolete if he's getting it for free. For me, I'm looking for a good deal on one of those 'unfinished' Blu-Rays.
> 
> --- CHAS


How is the A3 obsolete?

I picked up a Sony S300 at Best Buy for $399, yesterday. You get to pick out 5 Bluray titles in the store and choose another 5 from a list to be sent to you. I know they were selling for $299 a week ago, but they didn't come with the 5 free in-store discs.


----------



## BubblePuppy

Carl Spock said:


> Sony has a website up dedicated to their product showing at CES. No new Blu-ray players. *In fact, it looks like the BDP-500 is officially discontinued. * Not surprising.
> 
> Nor is it unusual they wouldn't show their hand at CE Show. They generally introduce their new products in the spring. Still, I was hoping for a peek.


Why do you think BDP-500 has been discontinued? It is still on the Sony web site.


----------



## Carl Spock

1) There has recently been a price reduction.
2) It isn't in their list of Blu-ray players on display at CES. The only ones that are shown on the CES website are the ES model and the BDP-300. 

Sony has never been one of those to do a hard in-production/discontinued kind of push. They just continue to sell until the old ones are gone.

And even if it is discontinued, it doesn't make it a bad deal. In fact, you might be able to get a better deal.

I'm also sure at least the -300 will go away shortly in favor of a new model. That would be typical Sony (I was a Sony video dealer for 20 years). ES units tend to not cycle through as rapidly.


----------



## ebaltz

Just get a PS3 and you are ready for anything, constantly upgraded...can do anything stand-alone can and then some by a factor of 10.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ebaltz said:


> and this is important to you because you want to buy many different players?
> 
> Get a PS3 and you are future proof.


I hope you are wrong, that the only way to future proof yourself is to buy a PS3 game console. All this talk about Java and BD's and all, I would hate to think that only the Sony PS3 will be able to update, as this WILL lead to all sorts of Forced upgrades in Technology, rather we want it or not. Long live the Memory stick.

Seriously are there other BD systems out there with the proper support for getting updates? Or are all those people with early BD's that bought into the Java update method out in the cold and having to buy NEW BD's?


----------



## yensid

Because they announced two new models to replace their current lineup at CES. They are still selling the current model until the new ones come out.


----------



## Carl Spock

^ Any info on these? I can't find anything about new models online.


----------



## gcisko

GrumpyBear said:


> I hope you are wrong, that the only way to future proof yourself is to buy a PS3 game console. All this talk about Java and BD's and all, I would hate to think that only the Sony PS3 will be able to update, as this WILL lead to all sorts of Forced upgrades in Technology, rather we want it or not. Long live the Memory stick.
> 
> Seriously are there other BD systems out there with the proper support for getting updates? Or are all those people with early BD's that bought into the Java update method out in the cold and having to buy NEW BD's?


What do you mean "proper support for updates"? I have had many DVD players and VHS players. Not one single one of them has needed any firmware upgrade at all.

BTW, I do have a PS3 and while I am glad it gets updates I am not really all that thrilled about it as per my statement above.


----------



## keith_benedict

Cholly said:


> I'm looking forward to the day when profile 2.0 Blu-ray Disc players will be available in the sub-$300 price range. Until then, I'll wait.


Me too. The problem is that by the time 2.0 players are <$300, 3.0 will be announced rendering those 2.0 players obsolete (or less functional than the 3.0 players).

At the moment, it appears that Blu-ray has either won or is in the process of winning the war. However, unless player prices come down to the level that makes them affordable to users with average or below average incomes, Blu-ray will go the way of D-VHS and LaserDisc. Neither format will survive if they rely solely on audio/video-philes who don't mind dropping $400+ each time the latest/greatest comes out.

This is why I was pulling for HD-DVD. The price of the players and the software made them much more accessible to the average joe-blow.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

As far as the major studio counting goes... It probably should be something like:

Prior to Warner:

HD DVD = 3
Blu ray = 4

(Keep in mind that for the purposes of this exercise I counted "major" as Paramount, Universal, Warner, Disney, FOX, and Sony)

AFTER Warner:

HD DVD = 2
Blu ray = 4

What is important to note here is that some people are doing creative math to figure the effects of Warner shifting to Blu ray only. Warner was neutral before... not HD DVD exclusive... so Blu ray didn't gain anything. HD DVD lost Warner, but Blu ray didn't gain Warner.

Also worth reminding folks... If the movie studios continue releasing (or should I say NOT releasing) HD or Blu ray movies in quantity... then the Warner loss by HD DVD could potentially amount to very few actual movies over the course of the year. With only 400 HD DVD movies over about 2 years (I don't know how many of those were Warner releases)... the impact in this year could be very small in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## phat78boy

ebaltz said:


> and this is important to you because you want to buy many different players?
> 
> Get a PS3 and you are future proof.


I'm sorry, but there is no such thing. Sure the Playstation 3 might be able to be upgraded, but profile 2.1 might need hardware it doesn't have. Their specs have changed so much since 1.0 and have so many "options" its amazing movies play from one Blu-Ray machine to another. In fact, they've had those problems too. Supposedly bad discs.

I also think its a slap in the face to consumers who adapted early and will not be able to use features from 2.0 profile movies. How an advance company like Sony could not see the use of ethernet to be important baffles me. Someone should loose their job or position over that.


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> I hope you are wrong, that the only way to future proof yourself is to buy a PS3 game console. All this talk about Java and BD's and all, I would hate to think that only the Sony PS3 will be able to update, as this WILL lead to all sorts of Forced upgrades in Technology, rather we want it or not. Long live the Memory stick.
> 
> Seriously are there other BD systems out there with the proper support for getting updates? Or are all those people with early BD's that bought into the Java update method out in the cold and having to buy NEW BD's?


Its not the java features that really kills off all the older Blu-ray players, its the ethernet. Ethernet will be required for 2.0 profiles.


----------



## petetheaxe

> Originally Posted by phat78boy
> The main reason I like HD-DVD over Blu-Ray at this point is that they are uniform. One player can do anything another can.
> 
> 
> 
> My A2 don't do 1080p
Click to expand...


----------



## GrumpyBear

So make sure, "if" I get a BD, make sure it has ethernet on it? Or it will be as good as a HD-DVD player in the long run?


----------



## phat78boy

petetheaxe said:


> Originally Posted by phat78boy
> The main reason I like HD-DVD over Blu-Ray at this point is that they are uniform. One player can do anything another can.
> 
> 
> 
> My A2 don't do 1080p
> 
> 
> 
> All HD-DVD players can do all HD-DVD movie features. There is no you need this profile or that extra on that player garbage. As for 1080P, that is not a movie extra to me. Some TV's do 1080P and some only do 1080i. I see it more as an advantage for users. Why pay for a 1080P player if you only have a 1080i TV?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> So make sure, "if" I get a BD, make sure it has ethernet on it? Or it will be as good as a HD-DVD player in the long run?


Thats the problem, only the Playstation 3 and I believe the dual format Panasonic have ethernet. This is one reason many people are waiting for 2.0 players.


----------



## Drew2k

ebaltz said:


> Pretty clear trend and graph of the slaughter:
> 
> http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/





Drew2k said:


> I didn't look closely past the first graph, but what is this measuiring? Sales of the media (HD-DVD discs versus BluRay discs), or sales of players?
> 
> What are "top ten products"?
> 
> On rows 3 to 6 of the graph, the top of the info is cut off when I mouse over a "cell" in the graph.
> 
> I'm a little confused by this graph that seems to only be showing the "winner" on a daily basis ... wouldn't annual totals be more significant? Here's why I ask: In a 10 day period, Product X outsells product Y on 8 specific days, with 50 of product X but 25 of Product Y sold each day. On the final 2 days 1000 units of Product Y are sold to only 200 of Product X each day. If you only look at daily winners, you can say Product X outsells Product Y 8 days out of 10, but if more of Product Y is solder overall, isn't the first "stat" meaningless, since Product Y outsold Product X over the entire time span?
> 
> Also, what is the source of this data? Amazon.com sales only?


So ... no one can help me out here?


----------



## Nick

Analysis: Blu-Ray and HD-DVD developments at CES 2008

Video: 



 (crappy audio)


----------



## keith_benedict

Nick said:


> Analysis: Blu-Ray and HD-DVD developments at CES 2008
> 
> Video:
> 
> 
> 
> (crappy audio)


I can only hear what the reporter is saying. The audio for the video coverage is nearly inaudible.


----------



## phat78boy

Drew2k said:


> So ... no one can help me out here?


It appears to be a timeline of sales from online Amazon.com. You can specify timelines and at the top is a large timeline with colors representing which format "won" the sales war on that day. The other measurements are stated next to their graphs. For instance the sales of each formats top 10 selling items is tracked. It will also show, between each graph, the top selling item for each format.


----------



## Drew2k

phat78boy said:


> It appears to be a timeline of sales from online Amazon.com. You can specify timelines and at the top is a large timeline with colors representing which format "won" the sales war on that day. The other measurements are stated next to their graphs. For instance the sales of each formats top 10 selling items is tracked. It will also show, between each graph, the top selling item for each format.


Thanks. So it excludes all other sellers, and to me the graph doesn't have much value then.


----------



## phat78boy

Drew2k said:


> Thanks. So it excludes all other sellers, and to me the graph doesn't have much value then.


Yes, its only for Amazon. I agree with you as I don't think they come close to the total from big box stores and their online counterparts.


----------



## Lord Vader

ebaltz said:


> and this is important to you because you want to buy many different players?
> 
> Get a PS3 and you are future proof.


PS3 is archaic compared to good, standalone BD players. It offers nothing but basic BD playback.


----------



## machavez00

most of us are going to wait until the profile 2.0 players hit the market.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

All I can tell you folks, is that the Blu-Ray booth was hopping. 

The HD DVD looked like they just came back from a funeral. 

'Nuff Said. I bought the wrong thing.... again.


----------



## ebaltz

Lord Vader said:


> PS3 is archaic compared to good, standalone BD players. It offers nothing but basic BD playback.


What the heck world do you live in? Does your standalone access the internet for browsing, store all your MP3s and rip CDs, store all your photos, store your AVCHD video files, stream media from your desktop, play video games, update automatically to the current BD spec, allow you to download content and games. It does everything a stand alone does and more.


----------



## ebaltz

Anyone at CES can tell you the buzz is about blu-ray and the blu-ray companies and their booths etc... apparently reports are that the HD-DVD booths are like tombs.


----------



## phat78boy

ebaltz said:


> What the heck world do you live in? Does your standalone access the internet for browsing, store all your MP3s and rip CDs, store all your photos, store your AVCHD video files, stream media from your desktop, play video games, update automatically to the current BD spec, allow you to download content and games. It does everything a stand alone does and more.


Its a very large hardware box that can do a little of everything, but nothing real well. I would rather buy a stand alone Blu-Ray player that works excellent. I already have an Xbox 360, Playstation 3 does nothing for me.


----------



## phat78boy

ebaltz said:


> Anyone at CES can tell you the buzz is about blu-ray and the blu-ray companies and their booths etc... apparently reports are that the HD-DVD booths are like tombs.


They may very well have the edge, but until they get a unified spec and unfied players out a large amount of people will be waiting on the sidelines. Hopefully 2.0 will be a better release for them.


----------



## Lord Vader

phat78boy said:


> Its a very large hardware box that can do a little of everything, but nothing real well. I would rather buy a stand alone Blu-Ray player that works excellent. I already have an Xbox 360, Playstation 3 does nothing for me.


Indeed. If I wanted a crappy Blu-Ray player that played video games for Pete's sake, I'd buy a PS3.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Maybe... maybe not.

I've gone on record many times before as saying I wouldn't be surprised if both formats fail. Consumers just haven't jumped on board, especially not at premium prices when compared to regular DVDs.

The "war" in some ways actually kept both sides going. IF the war ended with one side gaining significant marketshare that would be different... but at this point the total HD/Blu ray market is less than 3% when compared to DVD... so one format losing at this stage of the game could spell doom for the other format in another year if things don't change significantly.

Last year each side could blame the other for diluting the consumers and confusing them... but if one format prevails this year without significant growth of the market, then those excuses go out the window.


----------



## ebaltz

phat78boy said:


> Its a very large hardware box that can do a little of everything, but nothing real well. I would rather buy a stand alone Blu-Ray player that works excellent. I already have an Xbox 360, Playstation 3 does nothing for me.


Do you own a PS3? If not than obviously you know nothing of which you speak. It does everything excellently, and is future proof.


----------



## ebaltz

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed. If I wanted a crappy Blu-Ray player that played video games for Pete's sake, I'd buy a PS3.


Do you have one? If not than you have no idea what your are missing. It is consistently rated as one of the best Blu-ray players, if that is all it did. But it does so much more. Best piece of equipment I have ever had/bought. Wouldn't trade it for any standalone anything.


----------



## Mike728

ebaltz said:


> Do you own a PS3? If not than obviously you know nothing of which you speak. It does everything excellently, and is future proof.


Sorry, but nothing is "future proof". :nono2:


----------



## Drew2k

ebaltz said:


> Do you own a PS3? If not than obviously you know nothing of which you speak. It does everything excellently, and is future proof.


Already discussed, but nothing is future proof.


----------



## phat78boy

ebaltz said:


> Do you own a PS3? If not than obviously you know nothing of which you speak. It does everything excellently, and is future proof.


If you objectively looked at the PS3 you would realize your statement is way off. As far as both gaming and online abilities, the Xbox 360 blows it away. Sorry, but they don't have one title that I feel is even worth buying the PS3 for. It plays Blu-ray movies, but its not even in the top 5 of current players out there. The only thing it has going for it is it will probably be upgraded to atleast 2.0.


----------



## GrumpyBear

gcisko said:


> What do you mean "proper support for updates"? I have had many DVD players and VHS players. Not one single one of them has needed any firmware upgrade at all.
> 
> BTW, I do have a PS3 and while I am glad it gets updates I am not really all that thrilled about it as per my statement above.


What I meant without starting a bunch of flames, are there other BD's other than the PS3 that will allow you to update to the newer Firmware, that Newer BluRay movies will be requiring?

One of the bigger bragging rights I have heard BD people raving about, is there devices are always upgradable because they are Java Based. Looks like most BD's don't have a ethernet connection on them, looks like those will become boat anchors, just like the HD-DVD Players, as the movie companies add more and more DRM, and you need newer firmware to play them. Looks like lots of people may be losing out, if thats the way it is.


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> What I meant without starting a bunch of flames, are there other BD's other than the PS3 that will allow you to update to the newer Firmware, that Newer BluRay movies will be requiring?
> 
> One of the bigger bragging rights I have heard BD people raving about, is there devices are always upgradable because they are Java Based. Looks like most BD's don't have a ethernet connection on them, looks like those will become boot anchors, just like the HD-DVD Players, as the movie companies add more and more DRM, and you need newer firmware to play them. Looks like lots of people may be losing out, if thats the way it is.


That is, unfortuantely, the way I see it. Especially if HD-DVD goes down this year. While the movie might still play, many extras you paid for in buying the disc will most likely not work.


----------



## Christopher Gould

I think the public here forgets it wasn't a year or two but longer for sd dvd players to get really cheap. Why do you thing hd dvd players should be cheap in this amount of time.


----------



## phat78boy

Christopher Gould said:


> I think the public here forgets it wasn't a year or two but longer for sd dvd players to get really cheap. Why do you thing hd dvd players should be cheap in this amount of time.


Because they are. You can still get Toshiba HD-DVD players for about 160$. I see no reason to think it couldn't get to 120ish by summer. Thats pretty cheap to me.


----------



## cartrivision

HDMe said:


> Maybe... maybe not.
> 
> I've gone on record many times before as saying I wouldn't be surprised if both formats fail. Consumers just haven't jumped on board, especially not at premium prices when compared to regular DVDs.
> 
> The "war" in some ways actually kept both sides going. IF the war ended with one side gaining significant marketshare that would be different... but at this point the total HD/Blu ray market is less than 3% when compared to DVD... so one format losing at this stage of the game could spell doom for the other format in another year if things don't change significantly.
> 
> Last year each side could blame the other for diluting the consumers and confusing them... but if one format prevails this year without significant growth of the market, then those excuses go out the window.


I think that all the talk about an alternate delivery method (such as internet) obsoleting Blu-Ray before it takes hold is complete nonsense. While the rental market will start moving to internet delivery, that will be a long and slow process, and that won't do anything to the market for purchased DVDs. Within 5 years Blu-Ray players will be under $100, virtually every DVD title will be available for purchase on Blu-Ray, and even the brick and mortor rental outlets like Blockbuster will still be doing a good business renting out all those Blu-Ray titles.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ebaltz said:


> Do you own a PS3? If not than obviously you know nothing of which you speak. It does everything excellently, and is future proof.


Looks like he has a PS3, as he said he does. I don't have one, and flipped a coin between the PS3 and Wii this year. Went with the Wii to go along with the xbox360's we have. One of the reasons I still don't have a PS3, is online gaming, and when the wife and friends were planning the big New Years party, all the kids wanted to make sure we could bring over 2 of our Xbox360's to the party. Even though the house that hosted the Party has a PS3, all the games everybody wanted to play were on the xbox360. I stayed home until 11pm, with the 3rd xbox360 and had the 42" screen all alone, for the Halo3 fights. :lol: 
I will probably get a PS3 next year, PS2 doesn't get much game play at all, but I do like to have all the toys.
P.S. anybody want a gamecube with all the trimmings?


----------



## keith_benedict

phat78boy said:


> Because they are. You can still get Toshiba HD-DVD players for about 160$. I see no reason to think it couldn't get to 120ish by summer. Thats pretty cheap to me.


True. But now the film industry has determined that we have to buy $400 players instead in order to enjoy disc-based HD. It will be a long, long time before the players drop to prices that "normal" people can afford. For me, that would be <$200 or $250 and I just don't see that happening any time soon. I think that's where the majority of consumer's heads are at as well.


----------



## steinmeg

Nick said:


> In an effort to consolidate the plethora of news reports and press releases about the
> great HD DVD vs Blu-Ray battle, I am starting this thread. If you have news or views
> about the fight for hi-def format superiority, whether about disc sales or hardware
> news, please feel free to contribute to this thread.


 

Warner Bros. Entertainment to Release Its High-Definition DVD Titles Exclusively in the Blu-ray Disc Format Beginning Later This Year

Decision Made in Response to Strong Consumer Preference for Format

BURBANK, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--In response to consumer demand, Warner Bros. Entertainment will release its high-definition DVD titles exclusively in the Blu-ray disc format beginning later this year, it was announced today by Barry Meyer, Chairman & CEO, Warner Bros. and Kevin Tsujihara, President, Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group.

"Warner Bros.' move to exclusively release in the Blu-ray disc format is a strategic decision focused on the long term and the most direct way to give consumers what they want," said Meyer. "The window of opportunity for high-definition DVD could be missed if format confusion continues to linger. We believe that exclusively distributing in Blu-ray will further the potential for mass market success and ultimately benefit retailers, producers, and most importantly, consumers."

Warner Home Video will continue to release its titles in standard DVD format and Blu-ray. After a short window following their standard DVD and Blu-ray releases, all new titles will continue to be released in HD DVD until the end of May 2008.

"Warner Bros. has produced in both high-definition formats in an effort to provide consumer choice, foster mainstream adoption and drive down hardware prices," said Jeff Bewkes, President and Chief Executive Officer, Time Warner Inc., the parent company of Warner Bros. Entertainment. "Today's decision by Warner Bros. to distribute in a single format comes at the right time and is the best decision both for consumers and Time Warner."

"A two-format landscape has led to consumer confusion and indifference toward high definition, which has kept the technology from reaching mass adoption and becoming the important revenue stream that it can be for the industry," said Tsujihara. "Consumers have clearly chosen Blu-ray, and we believe that recognizing this preference is the right step in making this great home entertainment experience accessible to the widest possible audience. Warner Bros. has worked very closely with the Toshiba Corporation in promoting high definition media and we have enormous respect for their efforts. We look forward to working with them on other projects in the future."

Posted by Shane Sturgeon, January 6, 2008 06:53 AM

... (copyrighted commentary redacted [Tom Robertson])


----------



## Carl Spock

Ummm, thanks...


----------



## Steve Mehs

Exactly 200 posts too late Steinmeg


----------



## DCSholtis

http://www.reuters.com/article/companynews/idusn0742944620080107



> "We've typically been recession proof," Warner Bros Entertainment Group President Kevin Tsujihara said in an interview at the annual Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
> *
> "But the thing that we saw in the fourth quarter...was gas prices beginning to affect sales*. And since we're considered an impulse purchase, it's beginning to impact us," he said.


Now we know the REAL reason why Warner did what they did. It was the gas prices of course....:lol:


----------



## phat78boy

keith_benedict said:


> True. But now the film industry has determined that we have to buy $400 players instead in order to enjoy disc-based HD. It will be a long, long time before the players drop to prices that "normal" people can afford. For me, that would be <$200 or $250 and I just don't see that happening any time soon. I think that's where the majority of consumer's heads are at as well.


Thats what amuses me about this whole mess. HD-DVD has been solid and unified from day one and has players now under 200$. Any feature on any disc will work in any player.

Blu-Ray players have largely been double HD-DVD players from the start. They have not had the same unity and most 1.0 profile players could not even be updated. Some features will work on some players and not others. On top of that many movies released in Blu-Ray had a ton of problems playing in multiple different players.

So HD-DVD has been cheaper, is unified, and all have the same features. They did not have any mass problems with bad movies and they have combo HD-DVD's that will play in both HD-DVD and regular DVD players. Yet Blu-Ray is the consumer choice? I don't get it.


----------



## bobukcat

phat78boy said:


> If you objectively looked at the PS3 you would realize your statement is way off. As far as both gaming and online abilities, the Xbox 360 blows it away. Sorry, but they don't have one title that I feel is even worth buying the PS3 for. It plays Blu-ray movies, but its not even in the top 5 of current players out there. The only thing it has going for it is it will probably be upgraded to atleast 2.0.


The games YOU want to play are on the XBOX so HIS statement is way off - right. 

By what measurement is it "not even in the top 5 of current players", care to back that up with data? You can't be talking sales volumes, that's for sure.

I've looked at all the standalone BD players and I've yet to see any major feature that they do better than the PS3 except for some minor stuff with the remote. It is FAR from a crappy player.


----------



## Drew2k

There was a graph earlier that said BluRay was outselling HD-DVD, which certainly isn't what Toshiba believes, as noted in this article from BetaNews:



> Clearly, the events of the last few days have led many of you to that conclusion," Toshiba's Jodi Sally told reporters Sunday. "We have been declared dead before. *The reality is we ended 2007 with a majority of the year-to-date market share.*


Where are unbiased reports showing actual market share across all sellers all formats?


----------



## Drew2k

bobukcat said:


> The games YOUwant to play are on the XBOX so HIS statement is way off - right.
> 
> By what measurement is it "not even in the top 5 of current players", care to back that up with data? You can't be talking sales volumes, that's for sure.


Probably the same measure* used by others to say there is no better Blu-Ray player than a PS3. 

*It's called "opinion"....


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can tell you folks, is that the Blu-Ray booth was hopping.
> 
> The HD DVD looked like they just came back from a funeral.
> 
> 'Nuff Said. I bought the wrong thing.... again.


Not so fast buddy....I've got 2 HD DVD units, and have no desire or intentions of ever defecting to the dark side (Blu Ray) - never. 

Besides...there's more to the story than Warner's decision - here's some fodder for thought abbreviated from another post I made elsewhere:

With the recent announcement by Warner to discontinue HD DVD new releases as of May 2008, many HD disk consumers are soul-searching about the future of any HD disk format.

Based on current offerings at one of the major retailers (Best Buy), here are some interesting numbers" that may hold some answers:

Standard DVD Movie Titles - 65,700
HD DVD Titles -- 400
Blu Ray Titles - 456

The big picture is that neither Blu Ray nor HD DVD has captured a significant share of the overall media market to this point - people clearly are not in a hurry to leave the standard definition DVD format (yet). There appear to be 4 reasons for this:

1) The costs of migrating to any HD disk format have not yet been enticing enough to offset the perceived advantages in either HD format to the mainstream market. Certainly Sony keeping their average players at $400+ does not encourage change. The HD DVD side has been far more aggressive in their lower-cost player pricing. Forget the PS3 numbers for now - it's a game machine that happens to play Blu Ray disks. It's not the main reason people but the darn thing. There's a reason why Blockbuster adopted Blu Ray - PS3 users tend to rent movie disks, not buy them individually. [I recently read that over 40% of PS3 users were not even aware they could watch Blu Ray movies on their game machine.]

2) Even with reported "record sales" on certain new release HD disk titles, the numbers pale in comparison with SD formats - again tied a lot to disk price. When you sell 310,000 copies in a month of the Blu Ray version of Spiderman 3, but there are 5.4 Million copies of the SD format version sold that same month, the perspective becomes clearer. The same kinds of large disparity in numbers came up with the HD DVD release of Transformers. Another example...Bourne Ultimatum in HD DVD outsold Blu Ray Spiderman 3 so far...

3) The public display of a "war" in and of itself has caused apathy and confusion. More and more publicity and press releases on "who's winning this week", as well as word-of-mouth lobbying from users in both camps only adds fuel to the fire. Early adopters have vigorously "picked sides" one way on "their format". All of this turns off many mainstream DVD viewers and potential customers - it also helps encourage the mainstream consumer decision "not to change until we see how all of this pans out".

4) Based on the slow adoption rate of either HD format, there continues to be ongoing news of additional new formats (with lower costs and new technology advantages) being released and test-marketed, particularly overseas in Asia (where the numerical consumer market is larger). I bet there's something at next year's CES to validate this.

Based on all this evidence, it clearly appears that *both* formats have a legitimate chance to fail. How long do you really think they manufacture and format of HD disks when only 3-4% of the public buys them? Until they hit 15-20% of market share, they are a blip on the movie disk radar and subject to being tanked. That happens with any early adoption product.

Lessons learned:

1) Sony continues to maintain high prices on equipment and media, despite every major industry guru indicating this will deter sales. Right or wrong, this is consistent with their historic "our-way-or-the-high-way" mentality on past new proprietary products. Bullying the market to adopt a format has never worked.

2) Many "wars" are started over money, greed, and power....and this one doesn't appear to be any different.

3) The Hollywood studios are clearly propelled by nothing but immediate short term profits. For them to turn on a dime as they did in either of Paramount or Warner's cases demonstrates their true motivation. Based on this mindset, if Blu Ray sales don't triple or more the next few months, maybe they will be dropped entirely by some of the studios.

Based on all this, we clearly have been left to wonder - where will we be in a year from now in the HD disk format? We are now in an "every-man-for-himself" historical timeframe when it comes to the future of HD disks.

I'm looking forward to being at next year's CES, and seeing how my forecasts have come true (or not).

In the mean time Stuart - hang in there - HD DVD has 1 Million players out there and reams of disks in place and pending release. The war is long from over.


----------



## bobukcat

Drew2k said:


> Probably the same measure* used by others to say there is no better Blu-Ray player than a PS3.
> 
> *It's called "opinion"....


Since you quoted my post in your response I assume you're referring to me - but I never claimed there is no better player, I stated my experience and opinion - as opinion, not some blanket claim such as it's not even in the top 5. I would really like to know what others believe make certain standalone players better, not just a statement but something like "BD X is better because of.....". I don't claim to know everything about them and would certainly listen to facts and opinions on other players.

For the record I've already stated that I bought the PS3 instead of a standalone player because of the additional functionality and the fact I will still have a great (well, at least in my opinion) video game console if BD never takes off, not because I think it's the absolute best BD player out there.


----------



## Lethargic

cartrivision said:


> I think that all the talk about an alternate delivery method (such as internet) obsoleting Blu-Ray before it takes hold is complete nonsense.


I agree completely. Downloading movies makes me laugh the same way "in the future we'll have flying cars" does. The sad truth is that people out there just can't handle technology. And I'm talking about the tech we have NOW. And people think they're just gonna get rid of DVDs and go to some sort of new delivery system? Personally I live in a house of 4 and I'm the only one who can set a VCR and trying to explain the DVR to them is like teaching them Chinese. I get people everyday unable to remember the TV has to be on channel 3 to see their cable/sat and no matter how many times you tell them, they still can't figure it out.

Then you got got cost. Not everybody can afford to drop everything for new stuff. You've got everybody's movie collections. I've got thousand of tapes, DVDs and I just started my HD-DVD collection....whoops. I'm not gonna trash all this stuff just to download everything into some hard drive that could crash and wipe out every movie I have. And people LIKE having a physical objects. We like going to a store and having a nice package to take home and unwrap. Like I said, storing a movie digital, something goes wrong and it's gone. But that DVD will sit there for years and years and years and if something DOES happen to it, I can copy it and have a fresh new copy.


----------



## Lethargic

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not so fast buddy....I've got 2 HD DVD units, and have no desire or intentions of ever defecting to the dark side (Blu Ray) - never.


Same here. I did weeks of comparisons before settling on getting a HD-DVD player last fall. Everything I read about both the Blu-Ray itself and the way Sony has done business made me go with HD and even if HD fails, I'd just stick with upconverting regular DVDs on my HD-DVD player.


----------



## Drew2k

bobukcat said:


> Since you quoted my post in your response I assume you're referring to me - but I never claimed there is no better player,


Actually, no - I didn't mean to imply you were stating that. *You* didn't state it, but *another* poster did ... repeatedly.

However, you were asking for facts and sources of the one poster, but not the other, so I was just pointing out that there are more than one set of opinions being expressed here as "fact" ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lethargic said:


> Same here. I did weeks of comparisons before settling on getting a HD-DVD player last fall. Everything I read about both the Blu-Ray itself and the way Sony has done business made me go with HD and even if HD fails, I'd just stick with upconverting regular DVDs on my HD-DVD player.


Nothing has changed except for the betrayal of Warner....


----------



## Drew2k

Posted on BetaNews:



> "Clearly, the events of the last few days have led many of you to that conclusion," Toshiba's Jodi Sally told reporters Sunday. "We have been declared dead before. The reality is *we ended 2007 with a majority of the year-to-date market share.*"


All I keep reading is the Blu-Ray is outselling HD-DVD, yet Toshiba's rep doesn't believe that. Can anyone point to unbiased numbers that can paint the actual picture? So far I've seen stats for Amazon sales. What about all sellers all formats all markets? The U.S. is not the only market, and many of these studios that are purportedly "exclusive" to Blu-Ray are happily selling HD-DVD formats of those same Blu-Ray movies to international markets ...


----------



## ebaltz

Drew2k said:


> Posted on BetaNews:
> 
> All I keep reading is the Blu-Ray is outselling HD-DVD, yet Toshiba's rep doesn't believe that. Can anyone point to unbiased numbers that can paint the actual picture? So far I've seen stats for Amazon sales. What about all sellers all formats all markets? The U.S. is not the only market, and many of these studios that are purportedly "exclusive" to Blu-Ray are happily selling HD-DVD formats of those same Blu-Ray movies to international markets ...


Anywhere you look the number are between 60-40 or 70-30 for Blu-ray, and have been for a year. Blockbuster quoted that when declaring Blu-ray only at stores and Warner quoted that. The numbers are available everywhere.


----------



## ebaltz

Lethargic said:


> Same here. I did weeks of comparisons before settling on getting a HD-DVD player last fall. Everything I read about both the Blu-Ray itself and the way Sony has done business made me go with HD and even if HD fails, I'd just stick with upconverting regular DVDs on my HD-DVD player.


Enjoy! How stupid.


----------



## BudShark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not so fast buddy....I've got 2 HD DVD units, and have no desire or intentions of ever defecting to the dark side (Blu Ray) - never.


Good analysis... some good points - however -

I believe that with Disney, Sony, Warner all vying to keep the income rolling from home movies we will see an ever growing, ever strengthening push for Blu-ray. In fact, Disney is a bit of the unsong hero of Blu-ray. Without their marketing muscle, travelling road shows, advertisements, and regular DVD inserts - I'm not sure Blu-ray would have the recognition it does.

My point is that for the 65,700/456/400 numbers you gave - where do you see those in 6-9 months?

I see the release gap closing between DVDs vs. Blu-Rays, due to new releases and more "conversions" for Blu-Rays. And I see HD-DVD hitting the breaks.. fast. While I think it would be a mistake to say BD reaches 1000 before HD-DVD hits 500 - I don't think its a stretch to say we'll see 2500 BD long before we see 1000 HD-DVDs...

Anyhow - I think if you take a snapshot today it looks close. But that isn't taking into consideration momentum, press, etc. which will boost Blu-Ray and change the landscape. I think the next 6 months will decide whether Blu-Ray succeeds DVD or becomes a niche product... but in terms of HD-DVD... I think its done.

Chris


----------



## chris0

Drew2k said:


> Where are unbiased reports showing actual market share across all sellers all formats?


Each week EngadgetHD posts sales for HD DVD v. BluRay, linked from somewhere that I can't remember. I tried to find it for you, but with CES going on it's buried pretty deeply in there somewhere. I don't thin they list YTD numbers anywhere, but I've been reading it for several months now and BR to HD DVD is usually pretty close to 2:1.

If I find it I'll PM it to you.

As for top BR player, over at AVS it seems that the panny BD30 is a favorite for a standalone. The BD50 looks like it's going to be a worthy successor and will probably cost around what my Toshiba A35 did.


----------



## ebaltz

hdtvfan0001 keep dreaming and living in your HD-DVD fantasy world where up is down, black is white and HD-DVD is winning.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ebaltz said:


> Anywhere you look the number are between 60-40 or 70-30 for Blu-ray, and have been for a year. Blockbuster quoted that when declaring Blu-ray only at stores and Warner quoted that. The numbers are available everywhere.





ebaltz said:


> hdtvfan0001 keep dreaming and living in your HD-DVD fantasy world where up is down, black is white and HD-DVD is winning.


What's most interesting is that despite Blu Ray having supposedly a 10:1 ratio advantage of players out there (including the infamous PS3), they only have a 60:40 ratio difference in disks sold. In addition, the actual number of HD DVD players (not game machines) has a 60:40 advantage by HD DVD. I'd be extremely embarrassed at that pathetic performance of Blu Ray if I were Sony. :eek2:


----------



## chris0

Lord Vader said:


> PS3 is archaic compared to good, standalone BD players. It offers nothing but basic BD playback.


I wonder what you're basing that on. Elaborate?


----------



## chris0

chris0 said:


> Each week EngadgetHD posts sales for HD DVD v. BluRay, linked from somewhere that I can't remember. I tried to find it for you, but with CES going on it's buried pretty deeply in there somewhere. I don't thin they list YTD numbers anywhere, but I've been reading it for several months now and BR to HD DVD is usually pretty close to 2:1.


Found it.
http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/videoscan

It does have YTD numbers. The article I linked also explains who they get their numbers from.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

cartrivision said:


> I think that all the talk about an alternate delivery method (such as internet) obsoleting Blu-Ray before it takes hold is complete nonsense. While the rental market will start moving to internet delivery, that will be a long and slow process, and that won't do anything to the market for purchased DVDs. Within 5 years Blu-Ray players will be under $100, virtually every DVD title will be available for purchase on Blu-Ray, and even the brick and mortor rental outlets like Blockbuster will still be doing a good business renting out all those Blu-Ray titles.


I'm not one of the folks that believes in downloads being the answer.. in fact I sincerely hope that does NOT happen as I wouldn't like that at all.

But... given the tiny size of the HD/Blu ray market right now... A brand new competitor could enter the field with new technology and have almost as much of the market as either HD DVD or Blu ray does right out of the gate. Because of that, I don't see the Warner decision being a big shakeup right now.

Unless the Blu ray studios suddenly release a lot more movies than they have thus far, this market is going to stay tiny for a few more years.


----------



## rrrick8

I heard the same denials back in the 80's. 

Face it. Sony lost that one, but won this one. 

And for that I'm glad. I wouldn't change my Blu-Ray for nothing.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> What's most interesting is that despite Blu Ray having supposedly a 10:1 ratio advantage of players out there (including the infamous PS3), they only have a 60:40 ratio difference in disks sold. In addition, the actual number of HD DVD players (not game machines) has a 60:40 advantage by HD DVD. I'd be extremely embarrassed at that pathetic performance of Blu Ray if I were Sony. :eek2:


Yep... and the Blu ray exclusive studios haven't done anything at all to take advantage of that hardware advantage in terms of releasing movies for people to buy. Right now those 8 million PS3 owners still only have a little over 400 movies they can buy even if they wanted to do so.

Much like computers and consoles... success is tied to the availability of software/movies that people want to buy. You only sell the console/player once... you sell the movies (potentially) every week.


----------



## BudShark

HDMe said:


> I'm not one of the folks that believes in downloads being the answer.. in fact I sincerely hope that does NOT happen as I wouldn't like that at all.
> 
> But... given the tiny size of the HD/Blu ray market right now... A brand new competitor could enter the field with new technology and have almost as much of the market as either HD DVD or Blu ray does right out of the gate. Because of that, I don't see the Warner decision being a big shakeup right now.
> 
> Unless the Blu ray studios suddenly release a lot more movies than they have thus far, this market is going to stay tiny for a few more years.


I don't think downloads will take off. If software downloads still lag behind boxed software - I don't see how movie downloads will pass some form of tangible media... people want to hold that movie they bought...

Chris


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rrrick8 said:


> I wouldn't change my Blu-Ray for nothing.


A double negative.......

*[Kinda like Sony and Blue Ray]* :lol:


----------



## Mr_Bester

hdtvfan0001 said:


> What's most interesting is that despite Blu Ray having supposedly a 10:1 ratio advantage of players out there (including the infamous PS3), they only have a 60:40 ratio difference in disks sold. In addition, the actual number of HD DVD players (not game machines) has a 60:40 advantage by HD DVD. I'd be extremely embarrassed at that pathetic performance of Blu Ray if I were Sony. :eek2:


The actual YTD numbers are 64:36 Blu and since inception 62:38 Blu. HD DVD was on the market a good 6 months before BluRay.( From Neilson)

Can you link any numbers to support that? Not supplied by Toshiba?

The alleged numbers for the UK are approximately 4:1 - 7:1 blu depending on the source. In counting HD DVD players(not game machines) are you counting HD DVD Addons for the 360?

Both sides spin the numbers to suit their cause. HD DVD says they "grew" more in the 4th quarter than Blu ray. Blu Ray says they sold more in the 4th quarter than HD DVD has since inception. Who do you believe?

The only third party numbers are the Neilson numbers which account for 1/2 to 2/3's of the market. Blu beat HD DVD every week of the year. Each studio undoubtedly has their own internal numbers.

There was no crying foul when the HD DVD PG reportedly bought Paramount/Dreamworks for $150 mil, but now that there are allegations of payoff to Warner, suddenly it is anti-consumer....

I did pick Blu in the beginning knowing that my player could become OBSOLETE and I would have to buy an HD DVD player if the war went that way. That's the price of being an early adopter. If you hate sony so much, there are several other manufacturers that make BluRay players(many of which announced $300 - 400 players today). There is only Toshiba that makes an HD DVD player(I don't count dual format players).

Perhaps if there is a SINGLE format, then things will pick up. That is what Warner is betting on and Microsoft was hoping against.
Dug


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mr_Bester said:


> Who do you believe?


Certainly never Sony.


Mr_Bester said:


> Perhaps if there is a SINGLE format, then things will pick up. That is what Warner is betting on and Microsoft was hoping against.
> Dug


Don't bet on Blu Ray being that format.


----------



## smiddy

I am hearing death throws . . . wild stuff. I am real glad I didn't commit to either one yet. I was going to buy both but now, it looks like there is a clear winner, eh?  :lol: 

hdtvfan0001, Sony, they're really bony! :lol:


----------



## BudShark

smiddy must be voting on that Chinese HD-DVD knock-off... I'll bet they'll have cheaper players and movies...  :lol:

And if 1% of China buys one - they'll lap Blu-Ray and HD-DVD combined about 5 times!

Chris


----------



## smiddy

Is that CHD or affectionately called chud!?


----------



## BudShark

smiddy said:


> Is that CHD or affectionately called chud!?


He's an Ogre, with a Chud!


----------



## smiddy

Drew2k said:


> There was a graph earlier that said BluRay was outselling HD-DVD, which certainly isn't what Toshiba believes, as noted in this article from BetaNews:
> 
> Where are unbiased reports showing actual market share across all sellers all formats?


What was the name of the Information Minister for Iraq during the war? Do you think he could get a job announcing this stuff? :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Would that make me chud-ley? !rolling


----------



## BudShark

smiddy said:


> What was the name of the Information Minister for Iraq during the war? Do you think he could get a job announcing this stuff? :lol:


:lol:

Warner did not go exclusive with Blu-Ray. They are clearly supporting HD-DVD and only releasing Blu-Ray due to a court order...

Oh yeah, and the Americans are not in Baghdad....


----------



## chris0

smiddy said:


> What was the name of the Information Minister for Iraq during the war? Do you think he could get a job announcing this stuff? :lol:


Tariq Aziz. Even though every word he spoke was a lie I kind of liked the guy. He made me laugh. I'm pretty sure he got executed, though.


----------



## chris0

Here's some more fuel for the fire.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/paramount-following-warner-out-the-hd-dvd-door/


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BudShark said:


> smiddy must be voting on that Chinese HD-DVD knock-off... I'll bet they'll have cheaper players and movies...  :lol:
> 
> And if 1% of China buys one - they'll lap Blu-Ray and HD-DVD combined about 5 times!
> 
> Chris


You know....at first I started to laugh....but in reality....its not as far fetched as it sounds...it could actually happen.... :eek2:


----------



## wilsonc

chris0 said:


> Tariq Aziz. Even though every word he spoke was a lie I kind of liked the guy. He made me laugh. I'm pretty sure he got executed, though.


Tariq Aziz was the Foriegn Minister, and later the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq. The famous Iraqi Information Minister, who would give the harlious press conferences was Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf. There is a great website at http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/ . Both are still alive and well.


----------



## chris0

wilsonc said:


> Tariq Aziz was the Foriegn Minister, and later the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq. The famous Iraqi Information Minister, who would give the harlious press conferences was Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf. There is a great website at http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/ . Both are still alive and well.


I stand corrected. I think I got confused from seeing Tariq so much the first time around.


----------



## GrumpyBear

chris0 said:


> Here's some more fuel for the fire.
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/paramount-following-warner-out-the-hd-dvd-door/


That is more than fuel for the fire:eek2: 
Wouldn't surprise me at all if its true, Warner making the move that they did, is going to cause all sorts of Interesting Headlines.


----------



## BudShark

chris0 said:


> Here's some more fuel for the fire.
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/paramount-following-warner-out-the-hd-dvd-door/





wilsonc said:


> Tariq Aziz was the Foriegn Minister, and later the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq. The famous Iraqi Information Minister, who would give the harlious press conferences was Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf. There is a great website at http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/ . Both are still alive and well.


Wow - if the link above is true I don't think even al-Sahaf would accept a job with Toshiba promoting HD-DVD... (Why would I take this job Mr. Toshiba? You are clearly overmatched and doomed. I couldn't stand in front of the world and say things the whole world knows aren't true to a television camera) :lol:

Chris


----------



## Steve Mehs

chris0 said:


> Here's some more fuel for the fire.
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/paramount-following-warner-out-the-hd-dvd-door/


To quote Peter from Family Guy 'friggen sweet!' Wow. That would be the most humane thing to do to do. Don't let them lame horse die a painful death, just pull out the ole' .22 and *BANG!* If Paramount (and assumingly Dreamworks) are able to get out, that would just leave Universal. Glad to see it looks like Viacom learned the error of their ways, I just hope this holds true.


----------



## Drew2k

chris0 said:


> Each week EngadgetHD posts sales for HD DVD v. BluRay, linked from somewhere that I can't remember. I tried to find it for you, but with CES going on it's buried pretty deeply in there somewhere. I don't thin they list YTD numbers anywhere, but I've been reading it for several months now and BR to HD DVD is usually pretty close to 2:1.
> 
> If I find it I'll PM it to you.
> 
> As for top BR player, over at AVS it seems that the panny BD30 is a favorite for a standalone. The BD50 looks like it's going to be a worthy successor and will probably cost around what my Toshiba A35 did.





chris0 said:


> Found it.
> http://www.engadgethd.com/tag/videoscan
> 
> It does have YTD numbers. The article I linked also explains who they get their numbers from.


Thank you! Now some off-site reading to do ...


----------



## Drew2k

If Paramount wants to pull out, just do it NOW. This way I can return all my unopened HD-DVDs to Best Buy and use the exchange to get the Blu-Ray player. No wait - I'll just take a gift card, because I''ll wait until there's a Blu-Ray player that has the latest standard and has an Ethernet port for future firmware upgrades.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Ok,
If you want a laugh, in all this. Find the clip of Bill Gates, playing Green Acres theme song, while playing Guitar Hero.


----------



## texaswolf

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You know....at first I started to laugh....but in reality....its not as far fetched as it sounds...it could actually happen.... :eek2:


The thing to think about is if HDDVD goes under...how many "regular Joes" will spend $300-400 on a BR player alone vs. going to an upconversion player for all the DVD's they have..I don't think people will care about "going true HD" that much...unless they start dropping prices of blu ray players, and fixing the protection so that all movies will actually play on all players. I know a few people who went with the upconvert players...until the HD-a2 went for $100...then they got one of those. Point is...average joes (not us HD nuts) will go with the cheapest way in to the market..like they did with HDTV's....I have an HD-a2 and Ps3...so i could care less...but i dont see universal and paramount/dreamworks giving in soon...i think the longer they do...the more time it will give BR studios a chance to switch or go neutral (keep in mind Disney's vote for HDdvd to have the 51gb disc...giving a scare to a lot of folks at BR camp) and i fear Sony will keep bleeding money and protection,which anydvd will crack a week later...Paramount got fed up with the tech issues, will other camps also, due to customer complaints? I just hope, one going possibly under doesn't set up a fall for both.


----------



## 4DThinker

Sony could put the game away if they were smart enough to put a full-spec Bluray player on sale tomorrow for $99.99. It will only work if done in conjuction with the current Bluray/studio news. One it's "old news, we'll be back to the "war".

As for both formats failing, I see it happening fairly soon. I bought an HD-DVD player shortly after buying my first HDTV because I needed SOMETHING to take advantage of the HDTV's capabilty. At that time DirecTV didn't offer much (if any) HD content, my local cable company offered none, and Dish was similarly "behind". Today, though, I have 80+ HD channels from DirecTV. Dish and my Cable Co would love me to switch to their HD offerings. I can even get all my local channels in HD over-the-air. Movies in HD are easy to come by now. DirecTV receivers now have Video-On-Demand if they are hooked up to the internet. Mine lets me search for any movie or TV show, many of which are available in HD. I can easily choose one and have it que'ed up to be downloaded to my receiver. Even with my relatively slow DSL connection the downloaded movie I ordered when I got home at 6:00 is more than ready to watch by 7:00. They are working on remote booking. When it is in full function I'll be able to go online from work and order a movie (HD ones included) to have uploaded to my home receiver to be watched that night. As you can see, downloading movies is already here. 

And I'm sure someone at CES is introducing a web-enabled HDTV, with access to some internet movie rental source, which will let you pick a movie online and have it start to play within a minute or so as it streams right to your HDTV. At that point who need to buy or rent movies on ANY disc anymore?


----------



## jfuchtm

The real way to tell is have someone at CES check the adult movies. The winner will be what is selected by the adult film industry, just like it was during the Betamax, VHS war. History will repeat itself. Check the adult film industry.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jfuchtm said:


> The real way to tell is have someone at CES check the adult movies. The winner will be what is selected by the adult film industry, just like it was during the Betamax, VHS war. History will repeat itself. Check the adult film industry.


Alas, that myth has been busted several times over. Beta took way too long to get a full 2 hour format. The packaging failed them.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe said:


> I'm not one of the folks that believes in downloads being the answer.. in fact I sincerely hope that does NOT happen as I wouldn't like that at all.
> 
> But... given the tiny size of the HD/Blu ray market right now... A brand new competitor could enter the field with new technology and have almost as much of the market as either HD DVD or Blu ray does right out of the gate. Because of that, I don't see the Warner decision being a big shakeup right now.
> 
> Unless the Blu ray studios suddenly release a lot more movies than they have thus far, this market is going to stay tiny for a few more years.


There is no way another competitor is going to enter the market with a hard solution at this point. The only thing that will potentially show up someday is an IP solution.

Yes, there are only ~500 titles for each format; but they are mostly the biggest, hottest titles of recent releases for the most part. The studios aren't dumb, they release the ones people want most first.

Disney's press release last week talks about how _Pinochio_'s release on VHS, _Snow White_'s release on DVD both became tangible tipping points for those formats. _Sleeping Beauty_, to be released on Blu-ray this fall is expected to do the same thing.

Sony is not holding the prices up, btw. There is already significant competition amongst the player manufacturers, prices have dropped to the sub $300 point already, and expected to continue to fall rapidly this year.

Do I think the war is over? Not quite yet. Do I think HD-DVD will realistically win? No, not unless some very, very major surprises happen.


----------



## Tom Robertson

keith_benedict said:


> True. But now the film industry has determined that we have to buy $400 players instead in order to enjoy disc-based HD. It will be a long, long time before the players drop to prices that "normal" people can afford. For me, that would be <$200 or $250 and I just don't see that happening any time soon. I think that's where the majority of consumer's heads are at as well.


Blu-ray players are already available sub $300. Remember HD had a 6 month head start, Blu-ray is following the same price curves as HD.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ebaltz

jfuchtm said:


> The real way to tell is have someone at CES check the adult movies. The winner will be what is selected by the adult film industry, just like it was during the Betamax, VHS war. History will repeat itself. Check the adult film industry.


Wrong. There wasn't all you could download free porn on the internet back then. Rental and sales of porn on any format is pretty inconsequential in any media decision.


----------



## texaswolf

i think it's going to come down to players in households....if HD keeps selling them at these low prices....more people who cant afford BR players will be scooping them up...thus buying HD titles...BR is going to have to drop prices to get more people to come around...however with more studios in their pocket, it shouldn't be that hard.

Keep in mind i am not counting ps3 in there...i have one, and bought mine for both reasons...gameplay and BR capability....but quite a few people we know bought them for their kids, who have them in the bedrooms on SD sets....so we will never really know the true number of ps3 owners who really use the BR player.

I know people are wanting the war to end....but i hope it keeps going..more competition, more products released, better price drops, and more time for dual players to come down in price.


----------



## ebaltz

phat78boy said:


> Thats what amuses me about this whole mess. HD-DVD has been solid and unified from day one and has players now under 200$. Any feature on any disc will work in any player.
> 
> Blu-Ray players have largely been double HD-DVD players from the start. They have not had the same unity and most 1.0 profile players could not even be updated. Some features will work on some players and not others. On top of that many movies released in Blu-Ray had a ton of problems playing in multiple different players.
> 
> So HD-DVD has been cheaper, is unified, and all have the same features. They did not have any mass problems with bad movies and they have combo HD-DVD's that will play in both HD-DVD and regular DVD players. Yet Blu-Ray is the consumer choice? I don't get it.


You don't get it because you get your "facts" and "news" from sources dedicated to HD DVD propaganda. Do all HD- DVD players produce 1080p? No. So what does that say about your "unified" BS? The PS3 can play any Blu-ray from the past or way into the future because it can be upgraded anytime. Since when is cheaper better? IS that how you bought your TV and Car and audio equipment? Anyone who has the money to buy a surround system, a big screen HDTV etc...has the money and should spend the money on a decent Hi def video player, not some fire sale Toshiba tries to push at Wal-mart. Get real.


----------



## ebaltz

keith_benedict said:


> True. But now the film industry has determined that we have to buy $400 players instead in order to enjoy disc-based HD. It will be a long, long time before the players drop to prices that "normal" people can afford. For me, that would be <$200 or $250 and I just don't see that happening any time soon. I think that's where the majority of consumer's heads are at as well.


Maybe the government should force all companies to just give away HD DVD players because its somehow a right. Get real, what is all this crap about cheap players. People with HDTVs speant serious jack on a TV, they can afford a decent player. Enough already with that tired argument.


----------



## Tom Robertson

See, I keep thinking the war is not competition but a huge waste of resources for both sides. Both sides have to spend a lot of money to build a brand and fight off the other brand.

When the war is over, there will still be TREMENDOUS competition where it really counts--making players! There will be more manufacturers making the one format.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Billzebub

Me to, although at $178 with 7 free movies I guess it paid for itself. Everyone said to wait, I've just never been very good at following that advice. On the plus side, maybe we'll get the existing movies very cheap as people unload their inventories.
Also, today's blue-ray players won't do what tomorrows will and we'd have to buy a new one anyway.



Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can tell you folks, is that the Blu-Ray booth was hopping.
> 
> The HD DVD looked like they just came back from a funeral.
> 
> 'Nuff Said. I bought the wrong thing.... again.


----------



## apexmi

Tom Robertson said:


> Sony is not holding the prices up, btw. There is already significant competition amongst the player manufacturers, prices have dropped to the sub $300 point already, and expected to continue to fall rapidly this year.
> 
> Do I think the war is over? Not quite yet. Do I think HD-DVD will realistically win? No, not unless some very, very major surprises happen.


Tom,

I don't think you will see the same rate of decline in prices if HD DVD goes out of the equation, And if there were no HD DVD now the prices would still be $700-1000. BD had to stay in the same BALLPARK to even stay in the game over the last 12-18 months.

Even if all support stays as is, I think HD DVD will be here for another 24-36 months.

I have about 100 HD discs, But only buy my must haves on Blu/HD. my general interest / kids movies are still on DVD

Note to flamers & fanboys, I already own both and love both but did lean to HD DVD as I felt it was more consumer cost friendly.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can tell you folks, is that the Blu-Ray booth was hopping.
> 
> The HD DVD looked like they just came back from a funeral.
> 
> 'Nuff Said. I bought the wrong thing.... again.


I feel your pain.

I still have a Betamax in a closet. :eek2:


----------



## machavez00

ebaltz said:


> Wrong. There wasn't all you could download free porn on the internet back then. Rental and sales of porn on any format is pretty inconsequential in any media decision.


Would you be saying that if they the Adult Industry chose BD? I'd like to see that bachelor party where everyone has to gather 'round that 20" monitor to watch a stag show!

BTW, how do you know about all the free HD internet porn?:grin::lol:


----------



## Richard King

http://www.thestreet.com/_htmlatb/v...t:+Tech+News&cm_ven=&cm_cat=&cm_ite=#10397370


> "Ultimately, for the long run, I don't think BlueRay is going to be a big success".


More in the video


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Richard King said:


> http://www.thestreet.com/_htmlatb/v...t:+Tech+News&cm_ven=&cm_cat=&cm_ite=#10397370
> More in the video


It's got a better chance that UMD...


----------



## elaclair

Richard King said:


> http://www.thestreet.com/_htmlatb/v...t:+Tech+News&cm_ven=&cm_cat=&cm_ite=#10397370
> More in the video


The quote "Ultimately, for the long run, I don't think BlueRay is going to be a big success" had to do with the viability of Blu-Ray as an investment option...which of course can be said about almost ANY consumer-oriented electronic device/technology. Also, his remark about Hi-Def disks never becoming mainstream doesn't hold much merit, since the same arguments were being touted about DVD in it's infancy....they're too expensive, the average consumer will stay with VHS, they don't really know just what DVD is........


----------



## GrumpyBear

ebaltz said:


> Wrong. There wasn't all you could download free porn on the internet back then. Rental and sales of porn on any format is pretty inconsequential in any media decision.


You must be to young to remember History. The deathnail for Betamax was the Porn Industry's decision to use only VHS. Were its funny to make point of it now, but that is the way it happened. This round I doubt it will be a factor as the Movie companies are already out in REAL force with movies, and consumers have other options to record on as well.


----------



## Mike728

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, there are only ~500 titles for each format; but they are mostly the biggest, hottest titles of recent releases for the most part. The studios aren't dumb, they release the ones people want most first.


I had no idea "Beerfest" was that much in demand. :lol:


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> Would you be saying that if they the Adult Industry chose BD? I'd like to see that bachelor party where everyone has to gather 'round that 20" monitor to watch a stag show!


I actually have that movie in Beta. :grin:


----------



## GrumpyBear

That video Report and some others, are pretty good, and the comment by Warner and the "Window" makes even more Sense that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray were both going to be bumps in the Road Technology wise just like the LaserDisc. Both will be more sucessful, than the LaserDisc, but wont be around and out in large numbers in the long run. Large Portable HardDrives, some foldering options, Broadband connection and a Running DB of movies I have bought. Never have to worry about a Scratched Disk, Missing Disk, have to pack them up for a trip. Technology is right there and around the corner to give the, "I have to have my Media" types, to those who just want to have access to there movies. Just look at what you can do now with a PS3, Tivo and a Xbox360, as well as the move's the Studio company's have just made in signing on with Xboxlive, other services are right around the corner.
BD main issue, will be Price, yes people shell out big bucks for HD TV sets. Hmmm, maybe NOT, the majority of People STILL DON'T have a HDTV, and are only buying them now as the deadline approach's and as the Sets fall in price. BD and the Blu-Ray movies are going to be a price issue, and if you can't sell in large quanity's to make a profit, you have to keep the price up, and BD's with support for 2.0 will not be priced for the Mass's for sometime.


----------



## Mike728

ebaltz said:


> The PS3 can play any Blu-ray from the past or way into the future because it can be upgraded anytime.


Just curious... Does the PS3 have the ability to pass DTS-HD and True-HD through its HDMI port?

BTW, it's good to see you stopped stating that it was "future proof".


----------



## Carl Spock

elaclair said:


> Also, his remark about Hi-Def disks never becoming mainstream doesn't hold much merit, since the same arguments were being touted about DVD in it's infancy....they're too expensive, the average consumer will stay with VHS, they don't really know just what DVD is........


I don't remember anybody putting down DVD when it was launched beyond the fact that you couldn't record on them. Nobody liked VHS.

That said, the consumer will decide whether hi-def DVDs will be a success. They certainly rejected a better CD in SACD and DVD-Audio.

That failure also shows how a format war can kill a new technology. If you want to see high definition DVDs, the best thing would be for HD DVD to disappear and do it soon.


----------



## Mike728

Drew2k said:


> I''ll wait until there's a Blu-Ray player that has the latest standard and has an Ethernet port for future firmware upgrades.


Why do we need an Ethernet port for upgrades? I just upgraded the SW in my new Sony last night via a CD-R. It is easier to update my HD-DVD players, but it can still be done.


----------



## Carl Spock

Nobody's posted this yet so I should. This could well be my new Blu-ray player, the Panasonic DMP-BP50. It was announced at the CE Show.

press release - new Panasonic profile 2.0 Blu-ray player

The price hasn't been set but another website said it will be somewhat above their excellent BP-30. Spring is the projected release time. We'll see about both.


----------



## apexmi

phat78boy said:


> Its a very large hardware box that can do a little of everything, but nothing real well. I would rather buy a stand alone Blu-Ray player that works excellent. I already have an Xbox 360, Playstation 3 does nothing for me.


The PS3 has been reviewed by many in the industry as one of the BEST Blu-ray players available.


----------



## Jason Nipp

HDMe said:


> Maybe... maybe not.
> 
> I've gone on record many times before as saying I wouldn't be surprised if both formats fail. Consumers just haven't jumped on board, especially not at premium prices when compared to regular DVDs.


While I agree in part with what you just said, I believe consumers aren't buying because they want 1 format and are waiting to buy huge collections of expensive disc's so that they do not get left holding a Betamax cassette.


----------



## Jason Nipp

cartrivision said:


> I think that all the talk about an alternate delivery method (such as internet) obsoleting Blu-Ray before it takes hold is complete nonsense. While the rental market will start moving to internet delivery, that will be a long and slow process, and that won't do anything to the market for purchased DVDs. Within 5 years Blu-Ray players will be under $100, virtually every DVD title will be available for purchase on Blu-Ray, and even the brick and mortor rental outlets like Blockbuster will still be doing a good business renting out all those Blu-Ray titles.


The one thing I see wrong with delivery via Internet, well it just ain't fast enough. While I like the concept, when I want to watch a movie, I do not want to wait several hours for it to download. So I prefer a portable media format, so that I can watch it whenever I want where-ever I want.


----------



## Jason Nipp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not so fast buddy....I've got 2 HD DVD units, and have no desire or intentions of ever defecting to the dark side (Blu Ray) - never.


That's funny considering your avatar is only available in HD resolution on Blue Ray Disc... :lol: Sorry HD... I couldn't help myself.....:grin:


----------



## Jason Nipp

Drew2k said:


> Posted on BetaNews: All I keep reading is the Blu-Ray is outselling HD-DVD, yet Toshiba's rep doesn't believe that. Can anyone point to unbiased numbers that can paint the actual picture? So far I've seen stats for Amazon sales. What about all sellers all formats all markets? The U.S. is not the only market, and many of these studios that are purportedly "exclusive" to Blu-Ray are happily selling HD-DVD formats of those same Blu-Ray movies to international markets ...


Good point Evil Santa, Everyone keeps ranting about sales of format. To see who has the preferred format, what needs to be done is all movies become available in both formats, that way the stats are not lead strictly by the movies people want. For instance Bourne Ultimatum is only available on HD-DVD, where as if you wanted Spiderman Trilogy, well you need Blue Ray. I think that is an unfair way to judge which format is better. If the studios would not take sides, then we would truly have an unbiased stat.


----------



## cdub998

Just think of it this way. If the war is over we will get cheap BD players. Toshiba can start making BD players and sell them for $99 also.


----------



## pete4192

Mr_Bester said:


> The actual YTD numbers are 64:36 Blu and since inception 62:38 Blu. HD DVD was on the market a good 6 months before BluRay.( From Neilson)


Are these numbers including the PS3?


----------



## Snoofie

I think I might be able to get around $100 for my 360 HD-DVD player, judging by the recent auctions on ebay, and maybe another $100 for the movies I have already. I have a $50 gift card sitting in my wallet to Best Buy so I just need to come up with another $150 and I can get the PS3 guilt free.


----------



## John Scaro

I enjoy Movies so I bought a PS3 AND a Toshiba HD-A35! I don't care who wins as long as there's HD movies out.. I also had a LD player, how stupid right? I paid $1,100 back in 1997 and sold it for $450 last year on eBay!!!! 
Point is, if you like movies buy what you can afford or just wait. If your a supporter of Blu or HD-DVD than do it *RESPECTFULLY*. 
There's benefit to both formats just like everything in life, nothing is perfect. Take the HR-20 and HR-21 for example, they are the same but with different features. Is one better than the other? Depends on who you ask. So I have both, why try and decide


----------



## spoonman

Jason Nipp said:


> The one thing I see wrong with delivery via Internet, well it just ain't fast enough. While I like the concept, when I want to watch a movie, I do not want to wait several hours for it to download. So I prefer a portable media format, so that I can watch it whenever I want where-ever I want.


I agree and I think a lot of people miss this point. Download speeds are just too slow for HD movies with 7.1 uncompressed sound.


----------



## ebaltz

GrumpyBear said:


> You must be to young to remember History. The deathnail for Betamax was the Porn Industry's decision to use only VHS. Were its funny to make point of it now, but that is the way it happened. This round I doubt it will be a factor as the Movie companies are already out in REAL force with movies, and consumers have other options to record on as well.


And you must be too old to know what the internet is and what's available FOR FREE on it.


----------



## ebaltz

Snoofie said:


> I think I might be able to get around $100 for my 360 HD-DVD player, judging by the recent auctions on ebay, and maybe another $100 for the movies I have already. I have a $50 gift card sitting in my wallet to Best Buy so I just need to come up with another $150 and I can get the PS3 guilt free.


You will never regret doing it.


----------



## rjf

Lethargic said:


> I agree completely. Downloading movies makes me laugh the same way "in the future we'll have flying cars"


you mean kinda like all the record execs laughed when they were told 'some day people won't buy CDs, they'll just download the songs they want on the internet' who's laughing now?

HD VOD is hardly far fetched. and it isn't that hard to imagine Netflix is in discussion with DTV (or even crappy old Dish) about downloading movies direct to your DVR same as TiVo with Amazon UnBox. i for one, would rather do that than wait for a disk to arrive in the mail or buy a disk at the store.

and no offense, but if you're still using a VCR, then that speaks volumes right there. be careful about assuming to know all that the future holds. being a cynic takes no talent or imagination. and imagination is the key component to every advance humanity has ever made.

Ps - the Earth is round.


----------



## ebaltz

Carl Spock said:


> I don't remember anybody putting down DVD when it was launched beyond the fact that you couldn't record on them. Nobody liked VHS.
> 
> That said, the consumer will decide whether hi-def DVDs will be a success. They certainly rejected a better CD in SACD and DVD-Audio.
> 
> That failure also shows how a format war can kill a new technology. If you want to see high definition DVDs, the best thing would be for HD DVD to disappear and do it soon.


Well said Dr. Spock.


----------



## keith_benedict

Mike728 said:


> Why do we need an Ethernet port for upgrades? I just upgraded the SW in my new Sony last night via a CD-R. It is easier to update my HD-DVD players, but it can still be done.


Yeah, I don't understand that argument either. My HD-A30 has an ethernet port, but I'd much rather burn the firmware ISO to CD-R and use it. I don't have a lot of faith in devices that update over the internet like that. I've been through 3 Vonage V-Phones for the exact reason.


----------



## JasonK94Z

Seen this? Maybe the end of HD-DVD?

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/paramount-following-warner-out-the-hd-dvd-door/


----------



## theoak

I do not own Blu or HD, with that being said I always felt that it was inevitable that Blu win. From what I hear in Europe, Blu is the clear majority over there. Don't have sources unfortunately.

I am going to stay out of the Blu/HD wars for now and satisfy my HD cravings with OTA HD and satellite HD. Maybe late '09 I'll see where things are and the cost of players and make the plunge. Prices will hopefully be down quite a bit by then. There will be plenty of DVD still and I have a standard upconverting DVD player that does okay.


----------



## ebaltz

JasonK94Z said:


> Seen this? Maybe the end of HD-DVD?
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/paramount-following-warner-out-the-hd-dvd-door/


And here:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc409afa-...uid=e8477cc4-c820-11db-b0dc-000b5df10621.html

Lets see the HD-DUDs spin this one now as a win for them.


----------



## ebaltz

keith_benedict said:


> Yeah, I don't understand that argument either. My HD-A30 has an ethernet port, but I'd much rather burn the firmware ISO to CD-R and use it. I don't have a lot of faith in devices that update over the internet like that. I've been through 3 Vonage V-Phones for the exact reason.


Oh yeah that is much more convienent, download it, try to successfully burn it to a CD, without creating frisbees, then march to your player and upload. When you can just turn on the PS3, be notified of the new upgrade, it downloads and installs itself in seconds. Done. The average person doesn't want to have to download and burn (i.e. waste) CDs to upgrade. Although that is better than nothing I suppose.


----------



## ebaltz

Okay HD DVD supports...chew on this one:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc409afa-...uid=e8477cc4-c820-11db-b0dc-000b5df10621.html

Let the funeral begin.


----------



## onin24eagle

I'm done with both formats. I give up. After writing this post, I am officially listing all my HD Media on fleabay. I hope they both die a painful death.


----------



## Lord Vader

Old news by now.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ebaltz said:


> Okay HD DVD supports...chew on this one:
> 
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc409afa-...uid=e8477cc4-c820-11db-b0dc-000b5df10621.html
> 
> Let the funeral begin.


Hmmm,
This was posted already 2 days ago, in this forum. Still goes back to Warners statement of "Window of opportunity" for either technology. Problem still is acceptance in households and at the price of both the BD's and the movies. Problem no matter HOW good the technology is, if the Mass's can't justify the Price, it will be doomed.
This reminds me more of the old PC bus battles. Micro Channel, Eisa or VL-Bus.
MicroChannel was better, IBM screwed up the acceptance with Price Control and Royality issues, and before the Battle was over, PCI arrived and the others DIED off, with a wimper. We live in a fast changing technical world, if you don't get in early, and entrenched, you will lose, and that is what Warner was seeing, I don't think we will ever really know the truth of how much money went this way and that way, both sides did, but its been over 2 yrs now, for both, its replacement, is already here( 2 years is a LONG time to get a technology out and stablized). 
We keep looking at this from last yrs tech, not what is coming down the pipe, this time next year, we will all be saying wow, HD-DVD or BD's what were we thinking?


----------



## DragulaX

ebaltz said:


> Oh yeah that is much more convienent, download it, try to successfully burn it to a CD, without creating frisbees, then march to your player and upload. When you can just turn on the PS3, be notified of the new upgrade, it downloads and installs itself in seconds. Done. The average person doesn't want to have to download and burn (i.e. waste) CDs to upgrade. Although that is better than nothing I suppose.


 The area that I live in is spotty for broadband If you live here in the city you can get DSL or Cable,However 10- 15 miles down the road and your stuck in dial up hell. Is Blu Ray going to have some sort of order form where you can get a disc with these updates for blu ray? Im on the fence for either format right now,been waiting for one to come out on top. I also do not want to get a player that will not do the features on the discs.

Sure there is the "future proof " PS3 however if you live in an area where broadband is not available, how would you upgrade? Can you burn a cdr and use that? Sure there is the chance you will make a coaster, But I find it to be very rare when using nero.


----------



## Lord Vader

ebaltz said:


> And you must be too old to know what the internet is and what's available FOR FREE on it.


And you're too young to realize that porn and the Internet didn't coexist in the 1970s and 1980s when the VHS v. Beta war was occurring.


----------



## elaclair

Carl Spock said:


> I don't remember anybody putting down DVD when it was launched beyond the fact that you couldn't record on them. Nobody liked VHS.
> 
> That said, the consumer will decide whether hi-def DVDs will be a success. They certainly rejected a better CD in SACD and DVD-Audio.
> 
> That failure also shows how a format war can kill a new technology. If you want to see high definition DVDs, the best thing would be for HD DVD to disappear and do it soon.


I'll try and find a few of the articles on it (they're in hard-copy in my magazine archive.....man I am such a pack-rat)

I agree whole-heartedly about how SACD vs DVD-Audio basically killed them both....and both are (were?) superior formats compared to standard CD's.


----------



## phat78boy

apexmi said:


> The PS3 has been reviewed by many in the industry as one of the BEST Blu-ray players available.


Not the reviews I've been reading. Please share.

Everything I have read said it is a good player, but they usually give it their "best" value. I don't think its in the top 5, but it is cheaper then my top 5 listed Blu-Ray players.


----------



## ebaltz

Lord Vader said:


> And you're too young to realize that porn and the Internet didn't coexist in the 1970s and 1980s when the VHS v. Beta war was occurring.


Yeah I am sure there were TONs of people with their PC Jrs and 300 baud modems just downloading stuff by the bucket loads on their 13'' monochrome monitors. None of that stuff was anywhere near critical mass until the mid 90s at best, long after the VHS/Beta thing was over. Its a different world today, and to not think so...well no need to even say.


----------



## phat78boy

Mike728 said:


> Why do we need an Ethernet port for upgrades? I just upgraded the SW in my new Sony last night via a CD-R. It is easier to update my HD-DVD players, but it can still be done.


Burning a data CD to update your current generation movie player sounds really easy...... to us. This is not something your average consumer wants to do to their home theatre equipment.


----------



## ebaltz

DragulaX said:


> The area that I live in is spotty for broadband If you live here in the city you can get DSL or Cable,However 10- 15 miles down the road and your stuck in dial up hell. Is Blu Ray going to have some sort of order form where you can get a disc with these updates for blu ray? Im on the fence for either format right now,been waiting for one to come out on top. I also do not want to get a player that will not do the features on the discs.
> 
> Sure there is the "future proof " PS3 however if you live in an area where broadband is not available, how would you upgrade? Can you burn a cdr and use that? Sure there is the chance you will make a coaster, But I find it to be very rare when using nero.


If you don't have broadband, how are you posting to this Internet forum? Dialup? Ouch. I guess its nice if players do have a hard update option (the PS3 has multiple options for this as well). But the internet features of an HD media format will basically be useless to anyone on dialup anyway.


----------



## Mike728

ebaltz said:


> Oh yeah that is much more convienent, download it, try to successfully burn it to a CD, without creating frisbees, then march to your player and upload.


So now you're supporting the HD-DVD side?  Maybe you should just start a new thread titled: "PS3 - The Best Thing Since Sliced Bread".

BTW, I haven't made a coaster (frisbee) since the old 2x burners were around. Maybe you need to upgrade your burner if you have that many issues.


----------



## Mike728

phat78boy said:


> Burning a data CD to update your current generation movie player sounds really easy...... to us. This is not something your average consumer wants to do to their home theatre equipment.


They also have the option to order it from Sony and have it shipped to you.


----------



## phat78boy

Mike728 said:


> They also have the option to order it from Sony and have it shipped to you.


Lol. Doesn't that strike anyone as really poor planning? It seems like they spent all their time on the capacity aspect of Blu-Ray and not the usability of it. They are slowly coming along, but my point has been HD-DVD has been there all along. The 2.0 profile should have been the one released to consumers from the start.


----------



## ebaltz

And the beat goes on (or should I say beat down):

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article3153038.ece

Hello HD DVD, the Titanic called and wants its HD format back.


----------



## DragulaX

ebaltz said:


> If you don't have broadband, how are you posting to this Internet forum? Dialup? Ouch. I guess its nice if players do have a hard update option (the PS3 has multiple options for this as well). But the internet features of an HD media format will basically be useless to anyone on dialup anyway.


I wasn't asking about the internet features but how would one update the ps3 or bd player with out a broadband connection. Broadband is great however there is still a huge amount of people that can not get broadband. I know that there is a large amount who can they tend to forget about those who can not and the simple answer of move to an area you can is cruddy at best. My question was will they have a way to update the players PS3 OR BD Players with out a broadband connection. ordering discs etc. If so sweet I'm sold on it.


----------



## bobukcat

Mike728 said:


> Just curious... Does the PS3 have the ability to pass DTS-HD and True-HD through its HDMI port?
> 
> BTW, it's good to see you stopped stating that it was "future proof".


I don't have a HD AVR (yet) so I can't state from experience but according to the product data - yes it does.


----------



## Lord Vader

My point was to emphasize what another poster here had correctly stated, that the porn industry was the primary reason Betamax lost the battle. The porn industry went with VHS and the rest was history. If they go with Blu-Ray, history may very well repeat itself.


----------



## phat78boy

ebaltz said:


> And the beat goes on (or should I say beat down):
> 
> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article3153038.ece
> 
> Hello HD DVD, the Titanic called and wants its HD format back.


I like the way Microsoft is listed in this article. I believe if they, Microsoft, really wanted to save HD-DVD they would have made a much bigger deal about it after the recent announcements. It seems to me that even though they won't leave HD-DVD's camp, they aren't going to throw anymore money or help its way either.


----------



## bobukcat

phat78boy said:


> I like the way Microsoft is listed in this article. I believe if they, Microsoft, really wanted to save HD-DVD they would have made a much bigger deal about it after the recent announcements. It seems to me that even though they won't leave HD-DVD's camp, they aren't going to throw anymore money or help its way either.


I thought that was interesting as well, as I have always wondered just how much Apple is behind BD. This is a dynamic that never exsited in the Beta v VHS battle, or just about any other CE format decision in the past. I really think if MS wanted to ensure the success of HD-DVD they would have included it in the XBOX 360, although I imagine one of the main reasons they did not was in order to get it to market much quicker than the PS3 or the Wii.

They also mention that this format war is being decided in boardrooms instead of store fronts, which was not the case in Beta v VHS either, but I think it only makes sense (not necessarily "fair" or consumer focused") because the VCR was a new animal that was primarily used for recording programs in the home. It took them a long time to start selling pre-reorded tapes for purchase or rental - and only did so after their efforts to stop the product from being sold failed in court.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ebaltz said:


> And you must be too old to know what the internet is and what's available FOR FREE on it.


Go back and re-read my post. You need to BREATH, destress, before you post.
Once again, just incase you can't find the post. The deathnail of BetaMax was the Porn industry decision to use VHS over BetaMax. "In this Format war it(Porn) will not be a deciding factor". Before you tell another poster they are WRONG, learn your history. Before you misquite somebody else, READ posts, before you type. Slow down and Breathe too, it will do you some good. To give you some prop's, HD-DVD is in SERIOUS Trouble, no doubt about it.


----------



## machavez00

Laserdiscs, however did exist during the Beta V VHS and was the winner v CED (RCA) format

we need to cut ebaltz some slack, he's a BD zealot


----------



## bobukcat

GrumpyBear said:


> Go back and re-read my post. You need to BREATH, destress, before you post.
> Once again, just incase you can't find the post. The deathnail of BetaMax was the Porn industry decision to use VHS over BetaMax. "In this Format war it(Porn) will not be a deciding factor". Before you tell another poster they are WRONG, learn your history. Before you misquite somebody else, READ posts, before you type. Slow down and Breathe too, it will do you some good. To give you some prop's, HD-DVD is in SERIOUS Trouble, no doubt about it.


I don't think anyone is saying you're wrong about the porn industry being a huge factor in the VHS v Beta war, it's just that times HAVE changed and there is a lot of porn on the internet, certainly about 10 Million times more than there was on BBS's and other dial up conections (for the very few who even had a PC). BUT, imo I'm not too sure how many people (except maybe the serious pornofile (I like that term  ) will want to see porn in HD! :blush:

Also, as another poster pointed out, one of the big reasons that porn and consumers chose VHS was the availablity of a full two hour tape, something that Beta took way too long to develop.

This time around I think the major hollywood studios are already playing a huge part in determing a winner / loser (if there will be one either way) - because neither format is recordable (right now) the only market is for pre-recorded movies, and that was definitely NOT the case when the VCR was introduced. Porn may play some role, but I think the Warners / Paramounts / Disney's of the world are going to be a much bigger factor.


----------



## Carl Spock

As a loser in the Beta vs. VHS battle, I remember there were four reasons for the death of Betamax:

1) Porn going for VHS, as has been stated above.
2) Sony saying people didn't need to record for more than an hour. While Betamax recording times eventually reached 4 1/2 hours, they were playing catch-up with VHS the entire time.
3) Clunky machines - again, late to the game with portables and front load VCRs
4) Tape rental places that didn't want to double stock inventory, and so went with the consumer's preference, VHS.

This last one is the same reason Warners made their decision.

And BTW, ebaltz, it would do you good to lose a format war. I believed in Sony and Betamax like you believe in Blu-ray. I learned the hard way that I bet on the wrong horse and even more, that both Sony and the market could give a flying f*** about me. The humility I learned would make you a better person, ebaltz. Your fanboy arrogance has worn completely thin.

_"In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."_ - Elwood P. Dowd


----------



## GrumpyBear

phat78boy said:


> I like the way Microsoft is listed in this article. I believe if they, Microsoft, really wanted to save HD-DVD they would have made a much bigger deal about it after the recent announcements. It seems to me that even though they won't leave HD-DVD's camp, they aren't going to throw anymore money or help its way either.


The more and more you read some of the News, the backroom payoff's have to be many and large. What seems to be lost in all this, and looks to be somewhat of a payoff, Blu-Ray only Movie Studio's, MGM and Disney as well as ABC, have all signed on to XboxLive Marketspace. So Mr. Bill doesn't throw more many at HD-DVD, and gets Blu-Ray movie studio's in return for XboxLive.

News headline in June "Paramont gets out of HD-DVD only agreement and Xbox360 has Blu-Ray addon Drive, for under $200"

Now wouldn't that be funny.


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> The more and more you read some of the News, the backroom payoff's have to be many and large. What seems to be lost in all this, and looks to be somewhat of a payoff, Blu-Ray only Movie Studio's, MGM and Disney as well as ABC, have all signed on to XboxLive Marketspace. So Mr. Bill doesn't throw more many at HD-DVD, and gets Blu-Ray movie studio's in return for XboxLive.
> 
> News headline in June "Paramont gets out of HD-DVD only agreement and Xbox360 has Blu-Ray addon Drive, for under $200"
> 
> Now wouldn't that be funny.


An HD-DVD add on buner for the 360 to backup downloaded movies from Xbox Marketspace. That would be a headline.


----------



## judson_west

phat78boy said:


> Not the reviews I've been reading. Please share.
> 
> Everything I have read said it is a good player, but they usually give it their "best" value. I don't think its in the top 5, but it is cheaper then my top 5 listed Blu-Ray players.


Here is a review by Sound and Vision Online http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/1927/shootout-3-blu-ray-disc-players.html.


----------



## machavez00

bobukcat said:


> This time around I think the major hollywood studios are already playing a huge part in determing a winner / loser (if there will be one either way) - because neither format is recordable (right now) the only market is for pre-recorded movies, and that was definitely NOT the case when the VCR was introduced. Porn may play some role, but I think the Warners / Paramounts / Disney's of the world are going to be a much bigger factor.


Maybe not in the US, but in Japan it may have been different

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vhs


> Video Home System[1], better known by its abbreviation VHS, is a recording and playing standard developed by Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC) and launched in September 1976, with *The Young Teacher* being the first movie to be released.


----------



## ebaltz

Carl Spock said:


> As a loser in the Beta vs. VHS battle, I remember there were four reasons for the death of Betamax:
> 
> 1) Porn going for VHS, as has been stated above.
> 2) Sony saying people didn't need to record for more than an hour. While Betamax recording times eventually reached 4 1/2 hours, they were playing catch-up with VHS the entire time.
> 3) Clunky machines - again, late to the game with portables and front load VCRs
> 4) Tape rental places that didn't want to double stock inventory, and so went with the consumer's preference, VHS.
> 
> This last one is the same reason Warners made their decision.
> 
> And BTW, ebaltz, it would do you good to lose a format war. I believed in Sony and Betamax like you believe in Blu-ray. I learned the hard way that I bet on the wrong horse and even more, that both Sony and the market could give a flying f*** about me. The humility I learned would make you a better person, ebaltz. Your fanboy arrogance has worn completely thin.
> 
> _"In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."_ - Elwood P. Dowd


The truth hurts.

And in a related note...

http://digitalbits.com/#mytwocents


----------



## GrumpyBear

No e, didn't call me wrong, he just kind of missed the point of my post. He did say jfuchtm was wrong about Porn being part of any media decision, when J was talking in part about the ol VHS vs BetaMax war.

Cool Spock posted the top four reasons BetaMax lost, in the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray. 
Right on the money, too. I think a 5th reason could have been some backlash, for the court battles over, even letting users tape shows. 

Not sure I want to see Porn in HD either, some of the girls don't look as good in person 
Better to leave them in SD format.!rolling


----------



## ebaltz

bobukcat said:


> I don't think anyone is saying you're wrong about the porn industry being a huge factor in the VHS v Beta war, it's just that times HAVE changed and there is a lot of porn on the internet, certainly about 10 Million times more than there was on BBS's and other dial up conections (for the very few who even had a PC). BUT, imo I'm not too sure how many people (except maybe the serious pornofile (I like that term  ) will want to see porn in HD! :blush:
> 
> Also, as another poster pointed out, one of the big reasons that porn and consumers chose VHS was the availablity of a full two hour tape, something that Beta took way too long to develop.
> 
> This time around I think the major hollywood studios are already playing a huge part in determing a winner / loser (if there will be one either way) - because neither format is recordable (right now) the only market is for pre-recorded movies, and that was definitely NOT the case when the VCR was introduced. Porn may play some role, but I think the Warners / Paramounts / Disney's of the world are going to be a much bigger factor.


Good with one correction.

There are Blu-ray recordable media and recorders for the PC and Hitachi makes a blu-ray video camera.


----------



## pnyberg

onin24eagle said:


> I'm done with both formats. I give up. After writing this post, I am officially listing all my HD Media on fleabay. I hope they both die a painful death.


I too was lured in by the cheap price ($179 @ Costco) of HD DVD with 2 free titles plus 5 more via rebate. Thankfully I just bought my player and did not cut out my UPC to redeem my 5 soon to be useless HD DVDs. Looks like I will be returning my player and waiting for BR to come down in price...*sigh*


----------



## Carl Spock

ebaltz said:


> The truth hurts.


No. People hurt. The truth doesn't care.


----------



## phat78boy

judson_west said:


> Here is a review by Sound and Vision Online http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/1927/shootout-3-blu-ray-disc-players.html.


No offense, but its over a year old and I believe all players on the list were only 1.0 profile. Even with that, one of my biggest points of contention is it doesn't do upscaling for regular DVD's. This is standard in every other HD player out there. While some may say big deal because you already have one, I don't want yet another device in my setup if it doesn't need to be there.


----------



## judson_west

This war was won in the trenches. Warner saw that the same movies that it produced on Blu-ray outsold its HD-DVD counterparts. It saw that Blu-ray held a 70/30 advantage in hi-def DVD sales over HD-DVD. It saw major retailers giving more space to Blu-ray and even excluding HD-DVD in some stores. Soon, Universal will see the same thing.


----------



## ebaltz

phat78boy said:


> No offense, but its over a year old and I believe all players on the list were only 1.0 profile. Even with that, one of my biggest points of contention is it doesn't do upscaling for regular DVD's. This is standard in every other HD player out there. While some may say big deal because you already have one, I don't want yet another device in my setup if it doesn't need to be there.


Which device are we talking about? Was someone saying the PS3 doesn't upscale DVDs? It most certainly does. In fact it is one of the better DVD upscalers out there. ANd with its superfast cell processor it will continue to be one of the best anythings out there with continued updates.


----------



## GrumpyBear

bobukcat said:


> BUT, imo I'm not too sure how many people (except maybe the serious pornofile (I like that term  ) will want to see porn in HD! :blush:
> 
> Also, as another poster pointed out, one of the big reasons that porn and consumers chose VHS was the availablity of a full two hour tape, something that Beta took way too long to develop.
> 
> This time around I think the major hollywood studios are already playing a huge part in determing a winner / loser (if there will be one either way) -


Studios are playing TO BIG a part, but thats the way it is. Only real way we will lose, no matter who win's, will be how DRM will be forced down our throats. Some makers have been fighting users, coping their own Content that they bought and paid for, for YEARS, one all the way back tot he 70's and their stance hasn't changed. If Rachel Ray can get Evoo, entered into the new dictionary, maybe we can get your new word pornofile in too, that was to funny.


----------



## texaswolf

> Tom,
> 
> I don't think you will see the same rate of decline in prices if HD DVD goes out of the equation, And if there were no HD DVD now the prices would still be $700-1000. BD had to stay in the same BALLPARK to even stay in the game over the last 12-18 months.
> 
> Even if all support stays as is, I think HD DVD will be here for another 24-36 months.
> 
> I have about 100 HD discs, But only buy my must haves on Blu/HD. my general interest / kids movies are still on DVD
> 
> Note to flamers & fanboys, I already own both and love both but did lean to HD DVD as I felt it was more consumer cost friendly.


Yeah i agree, i also have both...but have more HD titles...while i could have waited, i have been enjoying Matrix trilogy and Transformers ect...for a while in HD.



> Lets see the HD-DUDs spin this one now as a win for them.


Dude, do you own stock in BR? It's guys like you that crack me up in this whole war....you really rather have people pay $300 for a player, than to get the best deal? Do you realy think that if HD goes under, all of the HDdvd's are going to disintegrate, and we will never be able to view them again? Give me a break, i wont have to buy all of these movies on BR if that happens...the main thing is, all of the HD exclusives, we have been enjoying for some time, and will continue to enjoy...no matter what happens. So you can enjoy yourself by calling people HD-duds, all you want, while waiting for certain movies to come on BR, while the smart ones like us, got great deals on both players and have been enjoying *all*l HD releases


----------



## judson_west

phat78boy said:


> No offense, but its over a year old and I believe all players on the list were only 1.0 profile. Even with that, one of my biggest points of contention is it doesn't do upscaling for regular DVD's. This is standard in every other HD player out there. While some may say big deal because you already have one, I don't want yet another device in my setup if it doesn't need to be there.


No offense taken. I understand that the article is over a year old but my PS3 does upscaling (this was introduced in an update in mid-2007) of standard DVDs. The software in the PS3 has also been updated to the BD 1.2 level this month. It does DD and DTS decoding and sends LPCM through the HDMI connection to my A/V receiver.


----------



## ebaltz

judson_west said:


> This war was won in the trenches. Warner saw that the same movies that it produced on Blu-ray outsold its HD-DVD counterparts. It saw that Blu-ray held a 70/30 advantage in hi-def DVD sales over HD-DVD. It saw major retailers giving more space to Blu-ray and even excluding HD-DVD in some stores. Soon, Universal will see the same thing.


Its the same with Blockbuster, they saw that people were renting Blu-rays 70-30 and do decided not to stock HD DVDs in most of their stores, not worth the space.


----------



## texaswolf

pnyberg said:


> I too was lured in by the cheap price ($179 @ Costco) of HD DVD with 2 free titles plus 5 more via rebate. Thankfully I just bought my player and did not cut out my UPC to redeem my 5 soon to be useless HD DVDs. Looks like I will be returning my player and waiting for BR to come down in price...*sigh*


useless? are they going to melt? or does your HD player have an auto turn off switch if the war ends? By the movies you want and enjoy them dude...this isnt going to end today, no matter what moves happen, there will still be plenty of HD movies you can buy and watch.

Amazon throws up the $19.99 HD/BR disc with buy one get one free deals all the time...enjoy.


----------



## Cholly

ebaltz said:


> And the beat goes on (or should I say beat down):
> 
> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article3153038.ece
> 
> Hello HD DVD, the Titanic called and wants its HD format back.


Here's a snippet from the quoted article: "Backers of HD-DVD point to the relative ease of producing the discs, and the lower cost of building machines capable of reading them. Unlike previous format wars, particularly the notorious Betamax v VHS skirmish in the 1980s, the war between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD has effectively been decided in boardrooms, rather than electronics showrooms. The decisions of the major studios have come well before those of customers, who have generally held back from picking one format for fear of backing a loser."

You are a true fanboy! You appear to spend most of your waking hours seeking out articles supporting your position and posting links to them or vilifying anyone who doesn't agree with you. For all your rants about the PS3 and Blu-Ray Disc being the best, the simple facts of the matter are this: if, indeed, Blu-Ray Disc "wins the war", it will not be because it is technologically superior, but because the suits in the executive offices feel that the triumvirate of Sony Pictures, Fox and Disney are unbeatable. They could care less about technology. This has been proven time after time. It's all about the money, and the big three above are where the money is.

You berate Toshiba because they have produced consumer grade players that "only handle 1080i, while all Blu-ray Disc players can deliver 1080p." So what? The great majority of people who own HDTV receivers have sets that are natively 720p. It's only recently that 1080p capable receivers have been widely available across all brands. People who already have 720p receivers are not likely to be buying 1080p receivers for some time.

For owners of HD DVD players to panic and want to sell their players and movie collections is just plain foolish. The players themselves are perfectly serviceable, and while Blu-Ray Disc may prevail, the movies that people already own are just fine. For example, I have two HD DVD players and 26 movies on HD DVD, some of which duplicate movies I already owned on regular DVD. I'm not about to dispose of them. I chose HD DVD because the tech was mature and stable, and because the players were affordable. As I've stated previously, I'll probably buy a Blu-ray Disc player once profile 2.0 players are generally available for less than $250 *if* HD DVD succumbs and a better technology hasn't come along


----------



## ebaltz

Well its not hard searching for articles...virtually every news outlet is displaying headlines of the nearly imminent demise of HD DVD. Consumers have chosen 2-1 to almost 3-1 Blu-ray. Partly because it is technologically superior, partly because of the choice of movies available, and partly because the PS3 is an awesome piece of equipment that can't be rivaled by anything on the HD DVD side.


----------



## machavez00

Cholly said:


> I chose HD DVD because the tech was mature and stable, and because the players were affordable. As I've stated previously, I'll probably buy a Blu-ray Disc player once profile 2.0 players are generally available for less than $250 *if* HD DVD succumbs and a better technology hasn't come along


Can a 1.0 player be upgraded to 1.1? Definitely not to 2.0 since none have an ethernet port.

BDA rushed their players to the market with an incomplete spec because Toshiba was ready to go and would have lost before the fight began.

BD tech was immature, as are it's over zealous fanbois


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Yeah i agree, i also have both...but have more HD titles...while i could have waited, i have been enjoying Matrix trilogy and Transformers ect...for a while in HD.
> 
> Dude, do you own stock in BR? It's guys like you that crack me up in this whole war....you really rather have people pay $300 for a player, than to get the best deal? Do you realy think that if HD goes under, all of the HDdvd's are going to disintegrate, and we will never be able to view them again? Give me a break, i wont have to buy all of these movies on BR if that happens...the main thing is, all of the HD exclusives, we have been enjoying for some time, and will continue to enjoy...no matter what happens. So you can enjoy yourself by calling people HD-duds, all you want, while waiting for certain movies to come on BR, while the smart ones like us, got great deals on both players and have been enjoying *all*l HD releases


I guess if Wal-mart is your store of choice for your digital and video equipment, then thats nice for you. I'll stick with quality over price, you get what you pay for. There was a reason Toshiba was having fire sales on HD DVD players and taking a bath on each one, even they knew they couldn't win straight up.


----------



## Mr_Bester

pete4192 said:


> Are these numbers including the PS3?


Those are Movies only...


----------



## GrumpyBear

I doubt that the war was won, or will be won any other way than, backroom dollars. Heck even Disney wont deny that money was exchanged. When you look at all the movement, joint Advertising Blu-Ray and Blockbuster, Blu-Ray and Target, the massive amounts of advertising done by Sony in the last quarter, there has been TON's of Money spent on buying people out. One of the funnier things I noticed back in October when the Advertising budget was in full bloom, Sony had been using BLU-Ray and then added High Def on Blu-Ray to cloud the waters. Once again, having fun with advertising is part of business.

THAT is the Nature of the Business though, we can debate the merits, but it is the nature of Business. To even further backroom and backdoor agreements, 2 Big Blu-Ray movie ONLY studio's, allow there content on to xboxlive, a HD supporter, all within the same week. If there wasn't some wheeling and dealing going on, things wouldn't change this fast, goes against business practice.

I love the Fanboys on both sides of this. They have all put in so many hours into engineering, and Marketing and Sales and in Negotiations(and yes MONEY exchanges hands in this part) go out all of you and pat yourselfs on your backs, you have earned it for all your Hard work.!rolling


----------



## ebaltz

machavez00 said:


> Can a 1.0 player be upgraded to 1.1? Definitely not to 2.0 since none have an ethernet port.
> 
> BDA rushed their players to the market with an incomplete spec because Toshiba was ready to go and would have lost before the fight began.
> 
> BD tech was immature, as are it's over zealous fanbois


Well smart people bought PS3s which can handle it all.


----------



## Mr_Bester

spoonman said:


> I agree and I think a lot of people miss this point. Download speeds are just too slow for HD movies with 7.1 uncompressed sound.


That is why a former Microsoft insider keeps saying that compressed is transparent to uncompressed. The 3x size saving will matter with downloads and smaller capacity disks....


----------



## texaswolf

> I guess if Wal-mart is your store of choice for your digital and video equipment, then thats nice for you. I'll stick with quality over price, you get what you pay for. There was a reason Toshiba was having fire sales on HD DVD players and taking a bath on each one, even they knew they couldn't win straight up.


lol...little fact for ya dude...wal-mart sells BR also...and PS3's...and Best Buy sold the HD players for $100-$150 on black friday...i get my stuff at Amazon.com most of the time...do a litlle research before you come back with a 16 year old answer....i guess you are saying that HD/BR/ps3's that people do buy at wal-mart, are a lower quality than the higher prices you pay? Interesting.:nono2:

Dont forget how much Sony is losing on each ps3...if you want to get into "taking baths" on sales.

Unless Sony is kicking you back profit sharing checks, i would just chill on the super supporter stuff


----------



## judson_west

You can advertise all you want, but it's the consumer that puts down the real dollars and has the real clout. If you advertise for product X and the retailer stocks product X but the consumer doesn't want product X, who looses?

Another point in fact is that even after Toshiba lowered the price of its players in late November, it was outsold by the more expensive Blu-ray players, including the PS3. I would say that without the PS3, Blu-ray movies would have had the success that it does.


----------



## Jason Nipp

onin24eagle said:


> I'm done with both formats. I give up. After writing this post, I am officially listing all my HD Media on fleabay. I hope they both die a painful death.


Did you not realize that the outcome was not yet or has not yet been achieved?

I will state I am in the BD camp, but I think that people have made a lot of assumptions and totally skew opinions towards there own favorite.

Personally, I am not convinced it is the end yet. That is why I have 1 HD-DVD and less than 10 BD discs in my collection. I, like many others, am not going to run out and spend thousands of my non-disposable income, on something that is still not definitively decided.

Posts like this are not going to change anyone's opinion.

I wouldn't throw in the towel that early.... But then again, if you don't have the disposable income, you may want to put limits on how much you invest in until its truly over.


----------



## machavez00

ebaltz said:


> Well smart people bought PS3s which can handle it all.


Teenagers and adults with kids.
Not everyone plays video games or have kids and won't buy a PS3 just to play movies.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ebaltz said:


> PS3 is an awesome piece of equipment that can't be rivaled by anything on the HD DVD side.


Granted this is a snippet, but If the PS3 was so Awesome, how come I had to wait in line for a Wii, and the PS3 was just on the shelf? Heck with all the rants for the PS3, and all its cool features, you would think it would out sell the Wii(without any HD content period) and the Xbox360 combined, but wait, even with all its cool features and the huge push in Marketing that it plays your Blu-Ray movies, it is still in 3rd place behind the other two, can't even outsell one of them.
Maybe it isn't the best thing out there. Consumers have spoken.

HEHEHEHEHE


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> Did you not realize that the outcome was not yet or has not yet been achieved?
> 
> I will state I am in the BD camp, but I think that people have made a lot of assumptions and totally skew opinions towards there own favorite.
> 
> Personally, I am not convinced it is the end yet. That is why I have 1 HD-DVD and less than 10 BD discs in my collection. I, like many others, am not going to run out and spend thousands of my non-disposable income, on something that is still not definitively decided.
> 
> Posts like this are not going to change anyone's opinion.
> 
> I wouldn't throw in the towel that early.... But then again, if you don't have the disposable income, you may want to put limits on how much you invest in until its truly over.


100% agree with you.

That is why i watch for deals on players and movies. The ps3 i was getting anyway, i always have bought PS...the BR player was an extra perk...i got a great deal on a HD player, and got a lot of movies via the deals i mentioned earlier...


----------



## machavez00

My A2 does a much better job at upscaling DVDs then my Samsung DVD player ever did.


----------



## GrumpyBear

machavez00 said:


> Teenagers and adults with kids.
> Not everyone plays video games or have kids and won't buy a PS3 just to play movies.


Don't tell fanboy that, you will break his heart.


----------



## judson_west

The PS3 was very expensive when it first came out in late 2006. Sales have picked up since then as the price has dropped. You had to wait in line for the Wii because Nintendo can't produce enough of them to satisfy the need. The Wii has outsold the PS3 for most of 2007 except for November, but I think that is due to the shortages of inventory of the Wii. 

Even if the PS3 were to crash and burn as a video game console, it is a darn fine BD player and media center client (for home photos, movies, and music).


----------



## GrumpyBear

judson_west said:


> You can advertise all you want, but it's the consumer that puts down the real dollars and has the real clout. If you advertise for product X and the retailer stocks product X but the consumer doesn't want product X, who looses?
> 
> Another point in fact is that even after Toshiba lowered the price of its players in late November, it was outsold by the more expensive Blu-ray players, including the PS3. I would say that without the PS3, Blu-ray movies would have had the success that it does.


I noticed with in days of Toshiba lowering its price's on HD-DVD prices, Sony's new Advertings came out, Blu-Ray for your HD Dvd's. PT Barnum put it best  :lol:


----------



## apexmi

pete4192 said:


> Are these numbers including the PS3?


Those are disc numbers not player ratios..


----------



## apexmi

GrumpyBear said:


> Go back and re-read my post. You need to BREATH, destress, before you post.
> Once again, just incase you can't find the post. The deathnail of BetaMax was the Porn industry decision to use VHS over BetaMax. "In this Format war it(Porn) will not be a deciding factor". Before you tell another poster they are WRONG, learn your history. Before you misquite somebody else, READ posts, before you type. Slow down and Breathe too, it will do you some good. To give you some prop's, HD-DVD is in SERIOUS Trouble, no doubt about it.


ebaltz is too busy chugging the Blu Kool-Aid to BREATHE :lol:


----------



## ebaltz

machavez00 said:


> Teenagers and adults with kids.
> Not everyone plays video games or have kids and won't buy a PS3 just to play movies.


Well it does a lot more than that. You don't have to buy any video games. I had it for a year before I did, just used it for MP3s, Blu-rays, DVDs, SACDs, CDs, Photos, browsing the internet etc...


----------



## Schizm

machavez00 said:


> Teenagers and adults with kids.
> Not everyone plays video games or have kids and won't buy a PS3 just to play movies.


That's a bunch of lawns for a teenager to mow for a PS3. My brother and I saved up a while to get a SNES so I guess it's possible. But that was less than half the price of a PS3.



GrumpyBear said:


> Maybe it isn't the best thing out there. Consumers have spoken.


People waited in line for the PS3 as well. Granted this was because Sony could produce enough. They even went so far as to clip the last two cells of the processor to expedite manufacturing.

I hope that 480p Wii works out well.


----------



## Chris Blount

Cholly said:


> Here's a snippet from the quoted article: "Backers of HD-DVD point to the relative ease of producing the discs, and the lower cost of building machines capable of reading them. Unlike previous format wars, particularly the notorious Betamax v VHS skirmish in the 1980s, the war between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD has effectively been decided in boardrooms, rather than electronics showrooms. The decisions of the major studios have come well before those of customers, who have generally held back from picking one format for fear of backing a loser."
> 
> You are a true fanboy! You appear to spend most of your waking hours seeking out articles supporting your position and posting links to them or vilifying anyone who doesn't agree with you. For all your rants about the PS3 and Blu-Ray Disc being the best, the simple facts of the matter are this: if, indeed, Blu-Ray Disc "wins the war", it will not be because it is technologically superior, but because the suits in the executive offices feel that the triumvirate of Sony Pictures, Fox and Disney are unbeatable. They could care less about technology. This has been proven time after time. It's all about the money, and the big three above are where the money is.
> 
> You berate Toshiba because they have produced consumer grade players that "only handle 1080i, while all Blu-ray Disc players can deliver 1080p." So what? The great majority of people who own HDTV receivers have sets that are natively 720p. It's only recently that 1080p capable receivers have been widely available across all brands. People who already have 720p receivers are not likely to be buying 1080p receivers for some time.
> 
> For owners of HD DVD players to panic and want to sell their players and movie collections is just plain foolish. The players themselves are perfectly serviceable, and while Blu-Ray Disc may prevail, the movies that people already own are just fine. For example, I have two HD DVD players and 26 movies on HD DVD, some of which duplicate movies I already owned on regular DVD. I'm not about to dispose of them. I chose HD DVD because the tech was mature and stable, and because the players were affordable. As I've stated previously, I'll probably buy a Blu-ray Disc player once profile 2.0 players are generally available for less than $250 *if* HD DVD succumbs and a better technology hasn't come along


Well said. I also have 2 HD-DVD players and a PS3. The movies I already own on HD-DVD aren't going anywhere. They look fantastic so it really doesn't matter which format wins. I have what I want.

One note about this thread. Please keep things civil. If you have already stated your opinion there is no reason to say it over and over again. So far this thread has been an excellent source of info but if it continues down the road with a troll-like flow and name calling, it will be closed.


----------



## ebaltz

apexmi said:


> ebaltz is too busy chugging the Blu Kool-Aid to BREATHE :lol:


you chug kool-aid when you hold fast to believing in something that isn't true, too good to be true or something that won't happen. So based on this week's events, who is a kool-aid drinker? A person who believes Blu-ray is winning and will win the war, or someone who think that HD DVD will? The house of cards is falling fast.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> you chug kool-aid when you hold fast to believing in something that isn't true, too good to be true or something that won't happen. So based on this week's events, who is a kool-aid drinker? A person who believes Blu-ray is winning and will win the war, or someone who think that HD DVD will? The house of cards is falling fast.


Well you seem to believe that people buying players at certain stores makes the players lower end quality...and that all HDdvd players will instantly stop working and all HD owners will be at a lost if the war ends....i think your drinking more than kool-aid

i also think you got a little to wrapped up in the "war"...you sure you don't own stock in BR?


----------



## machavez00

DoD HD will kill them both. Both camps have acknowledged that up to 2 hours of HD can be burned on a regular DVD. With Video sharing on the HR20, load it onto you PC and stream it to your TV


----------



## GrumpyBear

judson_west said:


> The PS3 was very expensive when it first came out in late 2006. Sales have picked up since then as the price has dropped. You had to wait in line for the Wii because Nintendo can't produce enough of them to satisfy the need. The Wii has outsold the PS3 for most of 2007 except for November, but I think that is due to the shortages of inventory of the Wii.
> 
> Even if the PS3 were to crash and burn as a video game console, it is a darn fine BD player and media center client (for home photos, movies, and music).


PS3 has it merits, it isn't a BAD product, at all and has cool features. Just taking it with a spoonful of reality. Mass Marketing, combined Marketing, and little confusion, go along way. insert PT Barnum line.:lol: 
PS3 helped itself with both a Price Drop and HYP over HD, even with that, it didn't beat the competition(game consoles) in demand or over all sales. I am planning on getting a PS3 around July or so myself, and looking forward to it. Just get tired of reading people post just how great it is, when it doesn't do much more than alot of other products, except it "currently is the only one with BD support". Things in a REAL business world do not move this fast, unless there is backroom things going on. That is PART of our Business world and EVERYBODY does it. I would love to find out how, in the SAME week Warner shifts, Microsoft gets content from Blu-Ray ONLY studio's, for Xboxlive.


----------



## Mixer

No way downloads will beat out the physical media that we enjoy today. When you download a movie today there is an expiration date. If they make it so that never expires the cost will be close to the same as what we pay for the disc. No way they will have downloads that you can keep for just 4.99. Also I would much rather have a disc that I bring with me on the roadand to friends and family when i visit them. Try bringing your DVR with you to show off your HD collection. Sure in the future we will see handheld devices that hold all the HD content for us and we will bring that with us wherever we go but that is not around the corner and certainly not in this generation of HD. 

I have a PS3 so I am rooting for Blu-Ray. However if there was something that was going to come out on HD-DVD that was not going to come out on BD I would pickup an HD-DVD player in a heartbeat.


----------



## apexmi

ebaltz said:


> I guess if Wal-mart is your store of choice for your digital and video equipment, then thats nice for you. I'll stick with quality over price, you get what you pay for. There was a reason Toshiba was having fire sales on HD DVD players and taking a bath on each one, even they knew they couldn't win straight up.


You really are the rudest little PUNK on here currently.

My HD-A1 upscales SD discs much better than my PS3 and if I can't get new movies for it in a year or two so what it will still upscale great, You also equate price to quality. (not a good way to go shopping through life). Knock Wal-Mart if you like but they do have the best prices on Blu-rqay players in my area.

Oh yaeh like the Blu-ray camp has played the whole thing straight up. They have given production incentives from day 1 of the format inception.


----------



## ebaltz

Downloading or recording to DVR (and storing on an external drive, like I do with my Dish box) is nice. I have 100 HD movies on my external hard drive. But I can't ever play them anywhere else, plus they are 1080i and compressed, and there are no additional features or options. So while they are nice, they aren't quite the same, and take up a lot of space. PPV is around but its not doing that well. I'd say 5 years or more until this actually becomes a real force. We need like 100TB very small portable drives or flash memory or something before it can really catch on. In the meantime, I'll enjoy both my recordings and my blu-rays.

If companies were really serious about trying to kill physical media for movies, they would offer HD downloads for like $1. I would probably rent many PPVs if I could have them for $1. But $5 for a view or limits on time to watch etc...just don't do it for me.


----------



## judson_west

Unlike the Beta and VHS format war, I can't visually discern the difference between BD and HD-DVD programming. For me, I picked BD because of its storage capacity now and potential for the future. At CES, last year, Hitachi showcased a Blu-ray disc that has 4 layers and is capable of storing 100GB of data. It was also capable of being read by existing BD players after a firmware update. 

When Paramount decided to go HD-DVD exclusive last year, they were in the middle of putting together Transformers for Blu-ray. They stopped in mid stream and changed it to HD-DVD. They quickly realized that the package that they were building for BD would not fit on an HD-DVD so they had to cut some things out.


----------



## judson_west

GrumpyBear said:


> I would love to find out how, in the SAME week Warner shifts, Microsoft gets content from Blu-Ray ONLY studio's, for Xboxlive.


One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. If/When all of the major studios announce Blu-ray only wont stop them from providing content to online providers. What we are battling for is how are these guys going to distribute HD video content on a hard medium to consumers.


----------



## machavez00

ebaltz said:


> Well it does a lot more than that. You don't have to buy any video games. I had it for a year before I did, just used it for MP3s, Blu-rays, DVDs, SACDs, CDs, Photos, browsing the internet etc...


With exception of surfing the net, I use my Mac/HR20 for all that.


----------



## apexmi

ebaltz said:


> you chug kool-aid when you hold fast to believing in something that isn't true, too good to be true or something that won't happen. So based on this week's events, who is a kool-aid drinker? A person who believes Blu-ray is winning and will win the war, or someone who think that HD DVD will? The house of cards is falling fast.


I really just don't understand why you take so much joy in any side winning or losing. unless you are one of the CEO's Who really cares it's home video there are too many more iportant things in life to get worked up over..


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> With exception of surfing the net, I use my Mac/HR20 for all that.


Mac's play SACD's? Multi-channel, or just 2 channel?


----------



## machavez00

Mike728 said:


> Mac's play SACD's? Multi-channel, or just 2 channel?


 I stream photos and music and movies to the HR20 from my Mac I don't have any SACDs or DVD-As.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Mixer said:


> No way downloads will beat out the physical media that we enjoy today. When you download a movie today there is an expiration date. If they make it so that never expires the cost will be close to the same as what we pay for the disc. No way they will have downloads that you can keep for just 4.99. Also I would much rather have a disc that I bring with me on the roadand to friends and family when i visit them. Try bringing your DVR with you to show off your HD collection. Sure in the future we will see handheld devices that hold all the HD content for us and we will bring that with us wherever we go but that is not around the corner and certainly not in this generation of HD.
> 
> I have a PS3 so I am rooting for Blu-Ray. However if there was something that was going to come out on HD-DVD that was not going to come out on BD I would pickup an HD-DVD player in a heartbeat.


I agree that the Current way of Online downloads will NOT replace any Media, but I think the next generation is closer than we all think. Hitachi's has a 1tb drive, Portable and depending in what you think afforadble is, at $300 its not bad, and thats today, it will only come down in price. 
Add online system ie.(iVideo, YahooVideo, add something else) that was also linked to a store, i.e Bestbuy(or insert your favorite) that keeps a registry of what you own, and lets you buy and take home via thumbdrive or similar device a movie so you can play an access it as quickly as you would a movie on your DVR. You wouldn't need much more than a dial up connection to varify DRM, you could back it up, and never have to worry about a lost or easly to scratch disk. You could plug in and use it like you do a PlayForSure device today. With newer AV theater systems, and DVR's, Tivo,Direct,Dish and Cable, you wouldn't need anything else.


----------



## Chris Blount

We really don't need two of these threads.

Closing

Link to other thread.


----------



## GrumpyBear

judson_west said:


> One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. If/When all of the major studios announce Blu-ray only wont stop them from providing content to online providers. What we are battling for is how are these guys going to distribute HD video content on a hard medium to consumers.


Hehehehe, I guess you are serious, that there are NO backroom deals going on. That Mr. Bill will both lose money and a battle without getting something in return. That Blu-Ray only content Companies will give there content over to a Major supporter of the competition (HD-DVD) That co-funding marketing has nothing to do with anything. MulitBillion Dollar companys make shifts in Marketing structure and agreements, without anything changing hands, just the writing on the wall and the will of the people.:eek2:

I guess my current job, just makes me jaded, when I see things like this in the Marketing world.


----------



## apexmi

ebaltz said:


> Well its not hard searching for articles...virtually every news outlet is displaying headlines of the nearly imminent demise of HD DVD. Consumers have chosen 2-1 to almost 3-1 Blu-ray. Partly because it is technologically superior, partly because of the choice of movies available, and partly because the PS3 is an awesome piece of equipment that can't be rivaled by anything on the HD DVD side.


The only Technological superiority Blu-ray has is Disc capacity. That's it....


----------



## Chuck W

GrumpyBear said:


> I noticed with in days of Toshiba lowering its price's on HD-DVD prices, Sony's new Advertings came out, Blu-Ray for your HD Dvd's. PT Barnum put it best  :lol:


When Toshiba lowered the prices on their machines, Sony went the BOGO route(Buy One, Get One Free). This is why their(BD) sales looked so skewed, to the point of 70/30. When you Bogo(and they were with many major retailers, as I got in on it a couple times myself), even tho you are only paying for 1, BOTH disks are counted as sales. It was a smart move by Sony. I really think if Toshiba had gone the same BOGO route, along with their low priced players, they would be in much better shape right now.

What would be telling is the pure revenue numbers of those 70/30 splits, to see how those BOGO deals impacted the percentages.

Oh and as for the "smart" people going for the PS3 as a player for it's upgradeablilty, as has been stated, not everyone wants a game console in their rack system. The PS3 is a sore thumb in mine, but remains, due to my daughter wanting to play games.

I also really don't like the idea of Sony controlling anything, as they have a bad history, in that regard.


----------



## apexmi

GrumpyBear said:


> Granted this is a snippet, but If the PS3 was so Awesome, how come I had to wait in line for a Wii, and the PS3 was just on the shelf? Heck with all the rants for the PS3, and all its cool features, you would think it would out sell the Wii(without any HD content period) and the Xbox360 combined, but wait, even with all its cool features and the huge push in Marketing that it plays your Blu-Ray movies, it is still in 3rd place behind the other two, can't even outsell one of them.
> Maybe it isn't the best thing out there. Consumers have spoken.
> 
> HEHEHEHEHE


I have a Wii for games and PS3 is for Blu-ray, and streaming from my media server only


----------



## GrumpyBear

judson_west said:


> Unlike the Beta and VHS format war, I can't visually discern the difference between BD and HD-DVD programming. For me, I picked BD because of its storage capacity now and potential for the future. At CES, last year, Hitachi showcased a Blu-ray disc that has 4 layers and is capable of storing 100GB of data. It was also capable of being read by existing BD players after a firmware update.
> 
> When Paramount decided to go HD-DVD exclusive last year, they were in the middle of putting together Transformers for Blu-ray. They stopped in mid stream and changed it to HD-DVD. They quickly realized that the package that they were building for BD would not fit on an HD-DVD so they had to cut some things out.


The drive is 1000gb,or 1tb not 100gb. Only way to get it that large is to use Blu-Ray technology too.
I would love to see this used more and more, and if content companies allowed us to folder this drive and use it, that would be just killer. Also they have a portable 1tb as well uses USB port.


----------



## apexmi

Schizm said:


> I hope that 480p Wii works out well.


It does, the games on the Wii are FUN. Who'd have thunk it...  Fun video games that appeal to all ages. I have both and the Wii has this generation of console wars in the bag it pulls further ahead of the PS3 & 360 week over week.


----------



## apexmi

machavez00 said:


> With exception of surfing the net, I use my Mac/HR20 for all that.


Hopefully the HR20 will stream as well as the PS3 eventually. Right now it's not even close to being there.


----------



## Mike728

This looks intriguing.


----------



## Carl Spock

I love this. People arguing technical superiority vs. fun.

Fun wins every time, as the market has shown.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Well its not hard searching for articles...virtually every news outlet is displaying headlines of the nearly imminent demise of HD DVD. Consumers have chosen 2-1 to almost 3-1 Blu-ray. Partly because it is technologically superior, partly because of the choice of movies available, and partly because the PS3 is an awesome piece of equipment that can't be rivaled by anything on the HD DVD side.


Do you own a HDdvd player to compare? or are you going off of what you heard?

I agree with Apexmi...my Hd does a better job at upscaling than my PS3...


----------



## GrumpyBear

Chuck W said:


> When Toshiba lowered the prices on their machines, Sony went the BOGO route(Buy One, Get One Free). This is why their(BD) sales looked so skewed, to the point of 70/30. When you Bogo(and they were with many major retailers, as I got in on it a couple times myself), even tho you are only paying for 1, BOTH disks are counted as sales. It was a smart move by Sony. I really think if Toshiba had gone the same BOGO route, along with their low priced players, they would be in much better shape right now.
> 
> What would be telling is the pure revenue numbers of those 70/30 splits, to see how those BOGO deals impacted the percentages.
> 
> Oh and as for the "smart" people going for the PS3 as a player for it's upgradeablilty, as has been stated, not everyone wants a game console in their rack system. The PS3 is a sore thumb in mine, but remains, due to my daughter wanting to play games.
> 
> I also really don't like the idea of Sony controlling anything, as they have a bad history, in that regard.


Its not Sony controlling anything, its having the SOLE control, their history has not favored us consumers. All those BD's without a ethernet port, will not be compatable, for BD 2.0, as Ethernet is MANDITORY. Why would it be MANDITORY, if you can already upgrade things via a mailed to CD? or even a downloaded Firmware, where you can burn your own CD. Newer SONY released movies wont let you UPSCALE them. Sony Movie Studio's has released a HD version of the movie, the newer(not older)DVD versions wont be upscaled, in both BD' as a well as Newer HD-DVD players, you will get an error message about. Once again, controlling how we watch, what we BUY. I will still be adding a PS3 over the summer, goes behind a black mesh screen so you don't see it right along, the Xbox360 and Wii, had to wait a summer, cause last summer it was more important to add a 2nd Xbox360 with Halo3 coming out.


----------



## bobukcat

I saw this scroll on the bottom of the G4 CES show I DVR'd and watched at lunch and haven't seen it posted anywhere here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1199743394.html

"ArcSoft, Inc. and Related Content Database Inc. (RCDB) will present an exclusive demonstration this week at CES of ArcSoft TotalMedia(TM) Extreme with BD Magic(TM), a new connected Blu-ray user experience for BD-Live players."

I personally am not enamored with the idea of interactive content to movies but I suppose there could be some cool functionality. I wonder if / when they would bring the same functionality to the PS3?


----------



## GrumpyBear

Carl Spock said:


> I love this. People arguing technical superiority vs. fun.
> 
> Fun wins every time, as the market has shown.


Amen,
Not sure which is funnier, your one liners or your avatar.


----------



## bobukcat

apexmi said:


> It does, the games on the Wii are FUN. Who'd have thunk it...  Fun video games that appeal to all ages. I have both and the Wii has this generation of console wars in the bag it pulls further ahead of the PS3 & 360 week over week.


I bought a Wii too and it's big hit with the adults (well, we're at least chronologically adults!) at parties - lots of fun. That said I wish the graphics were better but Nintendo took a different route and have proven that it works. That said, if I want to play a 1st person shooter, an action / adventure or racing (can't wait for GT5.0, the demo is stunning!) game by myself I will go to the PS3 (don't have XBOX) for the superior graphics. If friends are over the Wii comes out (so to speak)....


----------



## machavez00

GrumpyBear said:


> Hehehehe, I guess you are serious, that there are NO backroom deals going on. That Mr. Bill will both lose money and a battle without getting something in return. That Blu-Ray only content Companies will give there content over to a Major supporter of the competition (HD-DVD) That co-funding marketing has nothing to do with anything. MulitBillion Dollar companys make shifts in Marketing structure and agreements, without anything changing hands, just the writing on the wall and the will of the people.:eek2:
> 
> I guess my current job, just makes me jaded, when I see things like this in the Marketing world.


As has been posted before, Bluray/HD "exclusive" movies are are sold in both formats in Europe. If you have the cash, you can get what ever you want in both formats.
20th Century








Touchstone (Disney)








Colombia/Tristar (Sony!)


----------



## bobukcat

Just found this in relevence to porn being a deciding factor in the format war - the user comments at the bottom cracked me up (pardon the pun).

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/0...orn-digital-playground-steps-up-to-the-plate/

P.S. I was NOT out looking for porn on BD!!!! :engel02:


----------



## GrumpyBear

How would a BD handle a region encoded product? HD will play HD as there is no region code.
Maybe a reason to get a HD-A2, and order from overseas. Get everything I want that way.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I asked Warner yesterday; they confirmed their Blu-ray exclusivity was global.

Alas, no one else in the room answered that question.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## GrumpyBear

bobukcat said:


> Just found this in relevence to porn being a deciding factor in the format war - the user comments at the bottom cracked me up (pardon the pun).
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/0...orn-digital-playground-steps-up-to-the-plate/
> 
> P.S. I was NOT out looking for porn on BD!!!! :engel02:


Ok you wrote that just to see what kind of bad puns you would spur on. 
Hard to keep FROM not typing something inappropriate, but funny.

Once again the winner of the format war, will be the format that the PORN industry selects.


----------



## machavez00

GrumpyBear said:


> How would a BD handle a region encoded product? HD will play HD as there is no region code.


Thats a benefit of HD DVD



bobukcat said:


> Just found this in relevence to porn being a deciding factor in the format war - the user comments at the bottom cracked me up (pardon the pun).
> 
> PS3 owners demand porn, Digital Playground steps up to the plate
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/0...orn-digital-playground-steps-up-to-the-plate/
> 
> P.S. I was NOT out looking for porn on BD!!!! :engel02:


must have been ebaltz?



Tom Robertson said:


> I asked Warner yesterday; they confirmed their Blu-ray exclusivity was global.
> 
> Alas, no one else in the room answered that question.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


How is Warner going to pull that off when Sony films are sold on HD DVD outside of the US?


----------



## Chuck W

GrumpyBear said:


> Its not Sony controlling anything, its having the SOLE control, their history has not favored us consumers. All those BD's without a ethernet port, will not be compatable, for BD 2.0, as Ethernet is MANDITORY. Why would it be MANDITORY, if you can already upgrade things via a mailed to CD? or even a downloaded Firmware, where you can burn your own CD. Newer SONY released movies wont let you UPSCALE them. Sony Movie Studio's has released a HD version of the movie, the newer(not older)DVD versions wont be upscaled, in both BD' as a well as Newer HD-DVD players, you will get an error message about. Once again, controlling how we watch, what we BUY. I will still be adding a PS3 over the summer, goes behind a black mesh screen so you don't see it right along, the Xbox360 and Wii, had to wait a summer, cause last summer it was more important to add a 2nd Xbox360 with Halo3 coming out.


And hence why it completely boggles my mind at how wrapped up on Sony some of the BD supporters are and their total ignorance to Sony's checkered past. From the early Betamax days when Sony tried to dictate that people didn't need to record more than an hr's worth of programming(sports anyone), at a time, to the more recent PC root-kit debacle they tried/try with audio CDs, to the upcoming upscaling prevention, why would anyone be happy Sony has complete control of the industry, in ANY area?

As the old saying goes, be carefull what you wish for, because you just may get it...


----------



## GrumpyBear

In Europe they wont be able to, EU has funnier laws than we do. Person most likely was US thinking, and since they are BD here, it will be everywhere. It will be interesting to see how international sales go, between EU having both, and China, that will do what it wants, is HD light.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Chuck W said:


> What would be telling is the pure revenue numbers of those 70/30 splits, to see how those BOGO deals impacted the percentages.


There is a thread on AVS Forum that is talking about that... How the HD + Blu market was about $300 million last year... and the split was $170 million for Blu ray vs $130 million for HD DVD.

I'm not sure if those money amounts are gross revenue or net profit... also not sure if those include hardware + software or software only. Either way, if the hardware (counting PS3) is 3:1 or better in favor of Blu ray and the software is 2:1 or better in favor of Blu ray... it sure isn't showing up in the bottom line!


----------



## Carl Spock

Tom Robertson said:


> I asked Warner yesterday; they confirmed their Blu-ray exclusivity was global.


Interesting. I wonder what they plan to do about China.


----------



## bobukcat

Chuck W said:


> And hence why it completely boggles my mind at how wrapped up on Sony some of the BD supporters are and their total ignorance to Sony's checkered past. From the early Betamax days when Sony tried to dictate that people didn't need to record more than an hr's worth of programming(sports anyone), at a time, to the more recent PC root-kit debacle they tried/try with audio CDs, to the upcoming upscaling prevention, why would anyone be happy Sony has complete control of the industry, in ANY area?
> 
> As the old saying goes, be carefull what you wish for, because you just may get it...


I am hoping (wishing??) that the other members of the BD alliance (Apple, Pioneer, etc) will be able to temper any overly-agregious DRM requirements. This wouldn't stop Sony from doing it on their own studio's movies but may prevent the h/w from dictating it for all studios.

P.S. I always considered Sony's 1 and 1.5 hour Betamax limits to be a case of poor marketing decisions or just an excuse for a technology problem with the initial iterations of the format. And yes, I did own more than one Super Beta Hi-Fi machine.


----------



## machavez00

Samsung Debuts Slimmed-Down Combo HD Player : Ben Patterson : Yahoo! Tech
Samsung Debuts Slimmed-Down Combo HD Player










> Samsung has just announced its second-generation Blu-ray/HD DVD combo player, and it definitely has an edge on its predecessor in the style department. But here's a bigger question: How much will it cost?
> 
> The glossy, piano-black, and just 2.3 inch-high BD-UP5500 comes with most of the older UP-BD5000's features, including full support for Blu-ray and HD DVD interactive features, playback of Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD soundtracks, as well as the ability to upconvert standard DVDs to full-on 1080p. Also included is out-of-the-box support for Blu-ray profile 1.1 (which allows for picture-in-picture commentaries on newer Blu-ray discs), an Ethernet port for downloading new firmware and accessing online content, and HQV processing for enhancing HD and SD video.
> 
> Overall, not bad, but here's the spec we really want to know: how much? Unfortunately, Samsung isn't releasing pricing info just yet, but hopefully it'll be lower than the $799 sticker price for the BD-UP5000-especially given that the demand for combo HD decks may dwindle now that HD DVD appears to be on the ropes.
> 
> Look for the BD-UP5500 to arrive in stores in the second half of the year.
> 
> Update: Reports are coming in that the deck will retail for $599-still pricey, but a veritable bargain compared to the $799 BD-UP5000.


----------



## machavez00

Seagates take on the whole mess
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9845372-67.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5


> CNET.com > CES 2008
> January 8, 2008 11:20 AM PST
> Seagate CEO: Blu-ray won the battle but lost the war
> 
> LAS VEGAS--The winner in the Blu-ray and HD DVD war is the hard drive, according to Bill Watkins, CEO of Seagate Technology.
> 
> "People are saying Blu-ray won the war but who cares? The war is over physical distribution versus electrical distribution, and Blu-ray and HD lost that," he said during a breakfast meeting at the Consumer Electronics Show here this week. "In this, flash memory and hard drives are on the same side. The war is over and the physical guys lost."
> Bill Watkins
> 
> Bill Watkins
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Credit: Seagate)
> 
> Watkins, naturally, speaks from personal interest, but he's got a point. (A former Army grunt and a decades-long Deadhead, Watkins is also one of the more entertaining CEOs in the technology industry to interview.) Consumers haven't been buying Blu-ray or HD DVD players and by the time they do, technology companies will likely be hawking sophisticated on-demand services and Internet Protocol TV. IPTV, in fact, is the dominant theme of the show. Sharp, Samsung, and Panasonic all unfurled content alliances that will let consumers look at headlines or videos from the Net on their TVs.
> 
> That's good news for Seagate, because electronic distribution means more hard drive sales. "If (data) is in the cloud I get more storage sales because you have to back up everything," he said.


----------



## smiddy

machavez00 said:


> Samsung Debuts Slimmed-Down Combo HD Player : Ben Patterson : Yahoo! Tech
> Samsung Debuts Slimmed-Down Combo HD Player


It would be helpful to know the drive it uses. The last combo drive 9for the PC) I saw was $999.00 and this one with other hardware is $599...so I may buy it to get the drive, if I can find out what it is.


----------



## cartrivision

For those who didn't think that HD-DVD was dead after the Warner announcement, now Paramount is about to follow suit. It's over Johnny, its's over.

_"According to the Financial Times, Paramount has a clause in its contract with the HD DVD camp allowing it to switch to Blu-ray in the event that Warner was to do so. And exercising that clause is what's about to happen. It's also theorized that DreamWorks will follow Paramount, since the studios are closely tied together."_

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/64393
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ea637496-bd8d-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1


----------



## GrumpyBear

I have said this before, we are closer to, having a thumbdrives and Portable HardDisk's, and services where I can buy and download via the internet, or go into a store and bring it home, unload it, Types of service than we think. 1st round of Blu-Ray drives are already at 1TB right at 40 Blu-Ray movies this way, with out the dvd, that gets scratched lost or whatever. They will only get bigger faster, and cheaper. To make the movie companies happy all you would need would be a phoneline to ensure DMA, or just build in a algarithm, that gets updated every so often, no broadband necessary, for those who don't or wont have Broadband. As Warner said the "Window of Opportunity" they may have missed it all together.


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> I have said this before, we are closer to, having a thumbdrives and Portable HardDisk's, and services where I can buy and download via the internet, or go into a store and bring it home, unload it, Types of service than we think. 1st round of Blu-Ray drives are already at 1TB right at 40 Blu-Ray movies this way, with out the dvd, that gets scratched lost or whatever. They will only get bigger faster, and cheaper. To make the movie companies happy all you would need would be a phoneline to ensure DMA, or just build in a algarithm, that gets updated every so often, no broadband necessary, for those who don't or wont have Broadband. As Warner said the "Window of Opportunity" they may have missed it all together.


Agreed. This is where I would love to be. If bandwith wasn't an issue, I'd rather download a movie any day over having to keep track of a hard copy.


----------



## texaswolf

cartrivision said:


> For those who didn't think that HD-DVD was dead after the Warner announcement, now Paramount is about to follow suit. It's over Johnny, its's over.
> 
> _"According to the Financial Times, Paramount has a clause in its contract with the HD DVD camp allowing it to switch to Blu-ray in the event that Warner was to do so. And exercising that clause is what's about to happen. It's also theorized that DreamWorks will follow Paramount, since the studios are closely tied together."_
> 
> http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/64393
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ea637496-bd8d-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1


yawn....the day that HDdvd shut it's doors, it will be over...we have seen to many premature "it's over" calls...who knows what could happen...nobody expected paramount to make the move to HD either....who knows if one of the other studios will have had enough of version issues like they were, and jump ship or go neutral.

By the way, isn't Dreamworks owned by Paramount? Thats like everyone making a big deal when New line followed WB....same company folks!


----------



## texaswolf

phat78boy said:


> Agreed. This is where I would love to be. If bandwith wasn't an issue, I'd rather download a movie any day over having to keep track of a hard copy.


yeah, thats why i stopped burning movies, and just get them off the premiums and save them on the external...sooooo much easier


----------



## GrumpyBear

phat78boy said:


> Agreed. This is where I would love to be. If bandwith wasn't an issue, I'd rather download a movie any day over having to keep track of a hard copy.


I don't think bandwith will be an issue. NO broadband, go to Bestbuy(enter preferred store), sit down at the chair's and instead of making a custom CD, you login and copy to a thumbstyle drive, as these will be using the SAME technology, go home and off load it to your Networked Home Video Library. Technology is already inplace, just needs to be tweaked.


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> I don't think bandwith will be an issue. NO broadband, go to Bestbuy(enter preferred store), sit down at the chair's and instead of making a custom CD, you login and copy to a thumbstyle drive, as these will be using the SAME technology, go home and off load it to your Networked Home Video Library. Technology is already inplace, just needs to be tweaked.


I was speaking of being completely lazy and clicking a button from my laptop on the couch. Your idea is good. They could put kiosks in corner stores too.


----------



## Rich

ebaltz said:


> What the heck world do you live in? Does your standalone access the internet for browsing, store all your MP3s and rip CDs, store all your photos, store your AVCHD video files, stream media from your desktop, play video games, update automatically to the current BD spec, allow you to download content and games. It does everything a stand alone does and more.


He dares to attack Lord Vader! This should be good.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed. If I wanted a crappy Blu-Ray player that played video games for Pete's sake, I'd buy a PS3.


Lord Vader strikes back! More to come?

Rich


----------



## tgr131

cartrivision said:


> For those who didn't think that HD-DVD was dead after the Warner announcement, now Paramount is about to follow suit.


Paramount has denied this. link


----------



## judson_west

They denied that they were switching, not that they COULD switch.


----------



## Carl Spock

Agreed. It was a very tepid denial.

"Paramount's current plan is to continue to support the HD DVD format"

And tomorrow, what's the plan?


----------



## cartrivision

tgr131 said:


> Paramount has denied this. link


They didn't deny that they would begin releasing content on the Blu-Ray format. They only state that they will not be dropping support for the HD-DVD format. Maybe the terms of the $150 million payout from the HD-DVD camp requires that they keep supporting HD-DVD even if they exercise the clause that allows them to begin supporting Blu-Ray. That won't change anything. Nobody is going to buy an HD-DVD player anymore if everything from every major studio is available on Blu-Ray, regardless if some studios continue to (at least for the short term) support both formats.


----------



## elaclair

Carl Spock said:


> Agreed. It was a very tepid denial.
> 
> "Paramount's current plan is to continue to support the HD DVD format"
> 
> And tomorrow, what's the plan?


And of course, they can still say that, and start producing blu-ray again.......

One of the things that will be interesting with Paramount is they apparently have a number of titles already mastered (and some completely boxed) in Blu-Ray. If/when they go back to Blu-Ray, they will already have media available to sell.


----------



## Drew2k

Mike728 said:


> Drew2k said:
> 
> 
> 
> I''ll wait until there's a Blu-Ray player that has the latest standard and has an Ethernet port for future firmware upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do we need an Ethernet port for upgrades? I just upgraded the SW in my new Sony last night via a CD-R. It is easier to update my HD-DVD players, but it can still be done.
Click to expand...

I don't want to deal with going out of my way to find the download online, then finding a CD, then buring a CD, then inserting a CD into the player. I want to pick a menu option on the player and let the player do the work for me.


----------



## Drew2k

Carl Spock said:


> And BTW, ebaltz, it would do you good to lose a format war. I believed in Sony and Betamax like you believe in Blu-ray. I learned the hard way that I bet on the wrong horse and even more, that both Sony and the market could give a flying f*** about me. The humility I learned would make you a better person, ebaltz. Your fanboy arrogance has worn completely thin.
> 
> _"In this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."_ - Elwood P. Dowd


Thank you. May you never lose your hair pick. 

(P.S. The only thing worse than a sore loser is a bad winner ...)


----------



## apexmi

Drew2k said:


> Thank you. May you never lose your hair pick.
> 
> (P.S. The only thing worse than a sore loser is a bad winner ...)


+1


----------



## ebaltz

Carl Spock said:


> Agreed. It was a very tepid denial.
> 
> "Paramount's current plan is to continue to support the HD DVD format"
> 
> And tomorrow, what's the plan?


in other words, "It is what it is until it isn't any more". And that day may be this week.


----------



## ebaltz

machavez00 said:


> Seagates take on the whole mess
> http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9845372-67.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5


In 10 years maybe.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> There is a thread on AVS Forum that is talking about that... How the HD + Blu market was about $300 million last year... and the split was $170 million for Blu ray vs $130 million for HD DVD.
> 
> I'm not sure if those money amounts are gross revenue or net profit... also not sure if those include hardware + software or software only. Either way, if the hardware (counting PS3) is 3:1 or better in favor of Blu ray and the software is 2:1 or better in favor of Blu ray... it sure isn't showing up in the bottom line!


Last time I looked 170 million was more, considerably more (like 40 million more) than 130 million.


----------



## DBS Commando

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080108/tc_nm/show_xbox_dc_1

MS saying they may go Blu-Ray if needed


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> in other words, "It is what it is until it isn't any more". And that day may be this week.


insider information? Since you enlightened us earlier with "facts" that the ps3 beats any HD player hands down....without ever owning a HD player....we should be counting on this right?

I find it funny that when a rumor of a studio going BR..."it's all over"....but when that rumor is squashed it's "well, only for now"...lol...get a grip your gonna have a while to go before this "war" is completely done.


----------



## space86

I Read that Paramount is Looking to back Blu Ray.


----------



## DCSholtis

texaswolf said:


> insider information? Since you enlightened us earlier with "facts" that the ps3 beats any HD player hands down....without ever owning a HD player....we should be counting on this right?
> 
> I find it funny that when a rumor of a studio going BR..."it's all over"....but when that rumor is squashed it's "well, only for now"...lol...get a grip your gonna have a while to go before this "war" is completely done.


+1. Now back to some other forums to take advantage of other's "fire sales " on HD DVDs they're selling...:lol: Anyone else up for it? Some great prices floating around on other forums.


----------



## keith_benedict

GrumpyBear said:


> I have said this before, we are closer to, having a thumbdrives and Portable HardDisk's, and services where I can buy and download via the internet, or go into a store and bring it home, unload it, Types of service than we think. 1st round of Blu-Ray drives are already at 1TB right at 40 Blu-Ray movies this way, with out the dvd, that gets scratched lost or whatever. They will only get bigger faster, and cheaper. To make the movie companies happy all you would need would be a phoneline to ensure DMA, or just build in a algarithm, that gets updated every so often, no broadband necessary, for those who don't or wont have Broadband. As Warner said the "Window of Opportunity" they may have missed it all together.


That *may* be fine for those who like to purchase their videos. Personally, I purchase only 3 or 4 per year. IMO, there are very few films that are good enough to watch more than once. I let Netflix take care of the rest.

Bandwidth is still a major issue for downloads as well. People in the Blu-ray camp tout the storage capacity issue that it has over HD-DVD. Do you seriously see people downloading 25GB movies (the current max capacity of Blu-ray)? Personally, I'm not OK with my HD movies being the same quality as what I get from Directv or OTA. Keep in mind there are still a number of places in the US that can't get better than 28.8kbps connections. Even if people can go to the store and download them at some sort of Kiosk, we're a long way from having 25GB thumb drives. Additionally, I don't see the average consumer having multi-TB storage solutions at home for archiving their purchased content and unless you include the average consumer, the technology will NOT succeed.

For me, I'd MUCH rather have a bunch of discs lying around then have all of my purchased content on a failure prone hard disk and I don't want to spend the money for multi-TB RAID storage solutions.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> Last time I looked 170 million was more, considerably more (like 40 million more) than 130 million.


Sure it is... but not much for the kind of numbers these companies are usually dealing with. Considering payrolls and other expenses of doing business, these segments of the companies involved more than likely lost lots of money on their endeavors.

A small change in the market and this entire trend could be reversed overnight. When the entire market is only $300 million, and the difference between the two "brands" is $40 million (roughly 13.3%) nobody has an overwhelming claim to a win.

In fact, I continue to argue that this effectively proves BOTH sides were losing.

I sincerely hope downloads never take hold... but I can't say Blu ray or HD DVD will be here 5 years from now with any kind of confidence.


----------



## texaswolf

keith_benedict said:


> That *may* be fine for those who like to purchase their videos. Personally, I purchase only 3 or 4 per year. IMO, there are very few films that are good enough to watch more than once. I let Netflix take care of the rest.
> 
> Bandwidth is still a major issue for downloads as well. People in the Blu-ray camp tout the storage capacity issue that it has over HD-DVD. Do you seriously see people downloading 25GB movies (the current max capacity of Blu-ray)? Personally, I'm not OK with my HD movies being the same quality as what I get from Directv or OTA. Keep in mind there are still a number of places in the US that can't get better than 28.8kbps connections. Even if people can go to the store and download them at some sort of Kiosk, we're a long way from having 25GB thumb drives. Additionally, I don't see the average consumer having multi-TB storage solutions at home for archiving their purchased content and unless you include the average consumer, the technology will NOT succeed.
> 
> For me, I'd MUCH rather have a bunch of discs lying around then have all of my purchased content on a failure prone hard disk and I don't want to spend the money for multi-TB RAID storage solutions.


yeah i buy the ones i *really* want on HD...the rest are in HD o the external...and if it happens to fail and i lose them...eh...not a huge loss....still have my favs on disc.


----------



## keith_benedict

HDMe said:


> Sure it is... but not much for the kind of numbers these companies are usually dealing with. Considering payrolls and other expenses of doing business, these segments of the companies involved more than likely lost lots of money on their endeavors.
> 
> A small change in the market and this entire trend could be reversed overnight. When the entire market is only $300 million, and the difference between the two "brands" is $40 million (roughly 13.3%) nobody has an overwhelming claim to a win.
> 
> In fact, I continue to argue that this effectively proves BOTH sides were losing.
> 
> I sincerely hope downloads never take hold... but I can't say Blu ray or HD DVD will be here 5 years from now with any kind of confidence.


I really doubt if we'll see downloaded content beating out HD-DVD or Blu-ray for the same reasons that the Blu-ray supporters think that it's superior to HD-DVD: capacity.

Case in point, if you watch an HD version of a movie that is broadcast, then compare the audio to the SD version played back from DVD, there is no comparison. It's like trying to compare 160Kbps MP3s to CDs. There really IS no comparison.

To get the best quality, you have to have very large files that have very little compression. At today's download speeds of 4 - 6 Mbps, your talking 6 - 8 hour downloads for a 15GB file. Bump it up to Blu-ray capacities and it's more like 9 - 13 hour downloads. Even if it is done overnight, I don't see the broadband providers allowing that sort of thing.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Not that DVDTalk is the end-all be-all for DVD releases... but a quick scan of their current list of upcoming HD DVD and Blu ray releases this year shows...

HD DVD -> 41 titles through May
Blu ray -> 54 titles through May

We won't know how the Warner shift to Blu ray only will effect June-December releases, but all things considered... with the major studio support for Blu ray vs HD DVD, it sure isn't showing in the announced releases.

Granted there are more coming this year surely, from both sides of the fence... but nowhere near the number of titles that get released even in a single month for standard DVDs for half the year's HD/Blu ray releases.

Besides cost-of-players being a factor for the consumer, the sheer lack of available titles in both formats keeps people on the fence. When consumers don't see the studios supporting the format (even the supposed "winner" in Blu ray) it doesn't garner a lot of consumer spending confidence.


----------



## GrumpyBear

keith_benedict said:


> That *may* be fine for those who like to purchase their videos. Personally, I purchase only 3 or 4 per year. IMO, there are very few films that are good enough to watch more than once. I let Netflix take care of the rest.
> 
> Bandwidth is still a major issue for downloads as well. People in the Blu-ray camp tout the storage capacity issue that it has over HD-DVD. Do you seriously see people downloading 25GB movies (the current max capacity of Blu-ray)? Personally, I'm not OK with my HD movies being the same quality as what I get from Directv or OTA. Keep in mind there are still a number of places in the US that can't get better than 28.8kbps connections. Even if people can go to the store and download them at some sort of Kiosk, we're a long way from having 25GB thumb drives. Additionally, I don't see the average consumer having multi-TB storage solutions at home for archiving their purchased content and unless you include the average consumer, the technology will NOT succeed.
> 
> For me, I'd MUCH rather have a bunch of discs lying around then have all of my purchased content on a failure prone hard disk and I don't want to spend the money for multi-TB RAID storage solutions.


We already have 30gb hard drives that aren't much bigger than to thumbdrives side by side. We keep looking at this at what we have today. Just go back 18months ago, and see how much more capaicty and smaller the devices have gotten. Add in a blu diode, to the mix, and you can increase the capacity without adding space. I wasn't righting a business plan, just showing how with today's tech, and a little tweaking what could be done.


----------



## spartanstew

space86 said:


> I Read that Paramount is Looking to back Blu Ray.


Did you read that in this thread? It's been posted here many times that they might switch. It's also been posted that they reported it's false (but not out of the question). So, did you read the original report, or did you read a new report that's refuting the second report?

I've been waiting for 8 weeks to get my 5 free HD-DVDs through the mail. For some reason, I'm not as excited anymore.


----------



## keith_benedict

GrumpyBear said:


> We already have 30gb hard drives that aren't much bigger than to thumbdrives side by side. We keep looking at this at what we have today. Just go back 18months ago, and see how much more capaicty and smaller the devices have gotten. Add in a blu diode, to the mix, and you can increase the capacity without adding space. I wasn't righting a business plan, just showing how with today's tech, and a little tweaking what could be done.


Sure, 30GB small 30GB (or larger) hard drives aren't a big deal. The big deal is storing the movies in a reliable manner that makes them easy to retrieve when you want to view them. 1TB is roughly equivalent to 40 25GB Blu-ray discs. Even if costs go down A LOT over the next several years, it's incredibly unlikely that they will go down enough for the average consumer to be able to store a large number of HD movies.

Maybe someday, but not any time in the foreseeable future.


----------



## SledgeHammer

I'd say at this point, yeah, HD-DVD is dead. Or at the very least, in the ICU hanging on by a thread. After the Warner Bros defection, US market share is 70/30 by most reports. That does not include the Warner Bros umbrella studios who could jump ship as well if they had the same out clause. I know Paramount said they are sticking with HD-DVD, but come on, lets get real, at 70/30, its only a matter of time for them to jump ship as well. Once they do, its all done for HD-DVD.

DISCLAIMER: I have neither BluRay or HD-DVD equipment. I was holding out for a dual-format player. But it looks like HD-DVD support at this point is not necessary.


----------



## duck33

HD DVD is dead. Once all the Blu Ray haters realize that, the world will be a better place.


----------



## bobukcat

duck33 said:


> HD DVD is dead. Once all the Blu Ray haters realize that, the world will be a better place.


Oh, that's going to bring them down on you - RUN AWAY THERE'S A LOBSTER LOOSE - COVER YOURSELF WITH MELTED BUTTER!!! .... :grin:


----------



## duck33

Bring it on.


----------



## Drew2k

Now I know why AVS Forum shut down the Blu-Ray / HD-DVD forum for a spell ... the factions that are so entrenched in their own beliefs sure do like to make their opinions known, don't they? Why not just let people absorb what is happening and wait for the next shoe to drop, instead of bashing them over the head with the first shoe?


----------



## texaswolf

duck33 said:


> HD DVD is dead. Once all the Blu Ray haters realize that, the world will be a better place.


I LOVE IT!:lol:

Now who can argue with that common sense? The world will be a better place, because people will have to spend $300+ for a player....

Now if "the world" had the same interest in playing games like us ps3 owners....it might hold water...but um...no.

Trust me dude...you want the battle...it may not fare well for companies, but it fares well for consumers...since I don't own stock, or get profit sharing from any movie studios....i don't care.

Think about it 90,00 HD player sold in one day during the $99 sale....if both formats did that a few times a year, you would see the HD/BR market take off....then movie sales would be sky high....

But i guess the world is a better place without choices, right?


----------



## texaswolf

Drew2k said:


> Now I know why AVS Forum shut down the Blu-Ray / HD-DVD forum for a spell ... the factions that are so entrenched in their own beliefs sure do like to make their opinions known, don't they? Why not just let people absorb what is happening and wait for the next shoe to drop, instead of bashing them over the head with the first shoe?


oh you must mean the ones who have only used one format, but claim it to be superior than anything they have never tried:lol:


----------



## Drew2k

texaswolf said:


> oh you must mean the ones who have only used one format, but claim it to be superior than anything they have never tried:lol:


I don't want to point fingers ... it's all there in blue and gray (or whatever the forum colors are!)


----------



## duck33

The numbers dont lie people. 2.7 million Blu Ray players sold as of Dec 7, 2007. Could the numbers be better? Yes, but how many of those units sold for $99.99? NONE. My point is Blu-Ray doesn't need to lower their price since consumers are willing to buy the best.


----------



## Snoofie

Ha! It's funny with all this talk about HD-DVD dying and me considering switching over to Blu Ray, I received my 5 free HD-DVD's in the mail today.


----------



## duck33

Snoofie said:


> Ha! It's funny with all this talk about HD-DVD dying and me considering switching over to Blu Ray, I received my 5 free HD-DVD's in the mail today.


It's never to late to put them on ebay.


----------



## oudabashian

Just to take a step back for a second. As much as the supporters of both camps love their chosen format, the bottom line here is studio support. All the rest is trivial in the outcome of this War. The general public either does not know the differences (Capacity, Region Free, Firmware upgrades, etc) or does not care. Bottom line is Blu had better studio support which generated more disc sales. I for one have standalone players for both, and feel that HD DVD gives more "bang for the buck". Sure certain specs look better for Blu on paper. However, anyone who says that Blu provides a better picture in general is lying. As someone who owns well over 100 discs between the two, I have not noticed a difference one way or the other. Audio argument is overplayed as well. Thus far, Blu has not made enough use of the Capacity on the whole. HD DVD has often times had more "extra content". Will the Capacity be more utilized in the future? Perhaps, but HD DVD would surely increase Capacity as well, as reported in the past. At some point the law of diminishing returns applies. I believe that the following months will be very important for Blu. If the general public is now convinced that Blu is the way to go, resulting in mass adoption, then Universal & Paramount will surely go Blu and "officialy" end the War. However, if this does not take place, then we may never see a real winner.


----------



## apexmi

duck33 said:


> It's never to late to put them on ebay.


yeah cause they won't work anymore....

Go away you are just trolling at this point......


----------



## SledgeHammer

JUST ANNOUNCED: NEWLINE HAS JUMPED SHIP TO BLURAY!

HD-DVD: RIP 2007 - ... well... 2007 .

On a serious note, sorry to all the HD-DVD guys... I've gotten burned on some early adoptions myself .


----------



## texaswolf

duck33 said:


> The numbers dont lie people. 2.7 million Blu Ray players sold as of Dec 7, 2007. Could the numbers be better? Yes, but how many of those units sold for $99.99? NONE. My point is Blu-Ray doesn't need to lower their price since consumers are willing to buy the best.


Actually the numbers do lie...unless you count EVERY ps3 to be bought for a BR player....that would mean NONE of them are on SD sets ( i know of 3 that are in kids rooms on sd sets).

I think the last poll i seen, 40% of ps3 owners actually used the BR player. I know i do, because i bought it for both...but all those folks buying it for their kids at Christmas...are they all on HD sets? Do they even have an HD set?

You can't copy numbers from BR reports, unless you know the actual stats...

Now had they been sold separate like the 360's HDDVD drive...then they could boast actual numbers, since they were bought for the actual player use.


----------



## texaswolf

SledgeHammer said:


> JUST ANNOUNCED: NEWLINE HAS JUMPED SHIP TO BLURAY!
> 
> HD-DVD: RIP 2007 - ... well... 2007 .
> 
> On a serious note, sorry to all the HD-DVD guys... I've gotten burned on some early adoptions myself .


your a few days behind, and a little misinformed ....New Line is owned by Time Warner...same company that owns WB...this is not a surprise, been expect for since WB jumped.

It's just as silly as all the people saying "Dreamworks goes HDDVD only following Paramount"....same company...it's expected.

just another premature death notice

and i wouldn't feel "sorry" for them....some have 30, 40, 100 HD disc....same amount that some dvd owners have...they will still be able to enjoy those movies for as long as the want....

again...facts, guys, facts....lets keep the thread on a intelligent level instead of the typical "HD-dud" "boo-ray" high school pep rally cheers.


----------



## duck33

It's good banter. 

I did see in the adult industry that Digital Playground is moving to Blu-Ray.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Actually the numbers do lie...unless you count EVERY ps3 to be bought for a BR player....that would mean NONE of them are on SD sets ( i know of 3 that are in kids rooms on sd sets).
> 
> I think the last poll i seen, 40% of ps3 owners actually used the BR player. I know i do, because i bought it for both...but all those folks buying it for their kids at Christmas...are they all on HD sets? Do they even have an HD set?
> 
> You can't copy numbers from BR reports, unless you know the actual stats...
> 
> Now had they been sold separate like the 360's HDDVD drive...then they could boast actual numbers, since they were bought for the actual player use.


Actually the new numbers are out and 87% of PS3 owners use it for Blu-ray.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> I LOVE IT!:lol:
> 
> Now who can argue with that common sense? The world will be a better place, because people will have to spend $300+ for a player....
> 
> Now if "the world" had the same interest in playing games like us ps3 owners....it might hold water...but um...no.
> 
> Trust me dude...you want the battle...it may not fare well for companies, but it fares well for consumers...since I don't own stock, or get profit sharing from any movie studios....i don't care.
> 
> Think about it 90,00 HD player sold in one day during the $99 sale....if both formats did that a few times a year, you would see the HD/BR market take off....then movie sales would be sky high....
> 
> But i guess the world is a better place without choices, right?


How many companies were making Hd DVD players? How many Blu-ray? If you want to talk about competition that is the real story.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I don't know why the focus is so much on the number of players. Aside from the much-debated "do PS3's count" and "how many of them count" discussions... the real bottom line is that not a whole lot of Blu ray or HD DVD movies have been sold when compared to regular DVDs.

When the gap between the biggest sellers is something like 130,000:10,000,000 (roughly 1:77) there isn't much to brag about.

I could have the best selling thing in the world that only I and a few of my neighbors make... but if we only sell 1 of them for every 77 that our direct competitor sells... it isn't much to brag about.

I keep beating the dead horse... but if the movie studios really want people to buy either format, then movies have to be released more often than they are right now. Every week sees maybe a hundred or more DVDs released compared to maybe 10-15 HD and Blu ray combined... that just isn't getting it done.


----------



## machavez00

HDMe said:


> I don't know why the focus is so much on the number of players. Aside from the much-debated "do PS3's count" and "how many of them count" discussions... the real bottom line is that not a whole lot of Blu ray or HD DVD movies have been sold when compared to regular DVDs.
> 
> When the gap between the biggest sellers is something like 130,000:10,000,000 (roughly 1:77) there isn't much to brag about.
> 
> I could have the best selling thing in the world that only I and a few of my neighbors make... but if we only sell 1 of them for every 77 that our direct competitor sells... it isn't much to brag about.
> 
> I keep beating the dead horse... but if the movie studios really want people to buy either format, then movies have to be released more often than they are right now. Every week sees maybe a hundred or more DVDs released compared to maybe 10-15 HD and Blu ray combined... that just isn't getting it done.


I agree. I would love to buy more movies, but there aren't any for sale that I don't already own on SD DVD. There are a few that I will buy that I have on SD DVD: The Blues Brother, The Godfather Trilogy, The Outlaw Josie Wales, just to name a few. There a lot of classic movies I don't own that I would snap up if the would release them.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Actually the new numbers are out and 87% of PS3 owners use it for Blu-ray.


lol...are you even aware of where that number came from? In case you aren't:

In August of 2007 surveys were done asking Ps3 owners ages 6 to 44 and xbox 360 owners on whether they were aware of the capabilities....40% of ps3 owners where aware of the BR player.

*yesterday* at CES *SONY* announced that 87% use their ps3's as br players and 84% plan to continue to buy movies for it....

that a major increase in just 4-5 months...you also have to consider the source. Of course, Sony wouldn't pad any numbers would they?

Both BR and HD are going to pad numbers dude....you need to look better at neutral surveys to get the truth.


----------



## chris0

oudabashian said:


> The general public either does not know the differences (Capacity, Region Free, Firmware upgrades, etc) or does not care....If the general public is now convinced that Blu is the way to go, resulting in mass adoption, then Universal & Paramount will surely go Blu and "officialy" end the War.


Agreed. Go ask the average DVD buyer about region-free discs or the greater capacity of BluRay, most won't have any idea what you're talking about. The sooner one format completely dominates the scene the better it is for HDM. As it was with DVD, the more the masses adopt the winner the more movies will be released and the lower prices will go on the movies and the players.

As far as differences in formats, any objective person (sometimes hard to find in all of this) will tell you that PQ and AQ are equal on both sides. Even a good "lossy" DD+ track, like that on Transformers, sounds pretty stellar.

Now this is a bit OT, but I saw this and though of the discussions about BR prices vs. HD DVD prices and how they compare to other technologies at various points in time. This was announced at CES today.
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9844838-67.html?tag=head
And that's just a CD player!


----------



## chris0

machavez00 said:


> I agree. I would love to buy more movies, but there aren't any for sale that I don't already own on SD DVD. There are a few that I will buy that I have on SD DVD: The Blues Brother, The Godfather Trilogy, The Outlaw Josie Wales, just to name a few. There a lot of classic movies I don't own that I would snap up if the would release them.


I'm thinking a remasterd "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" would be pretty freakin' sweet.


----------



## apexmi

texaswolf said:


> lol...are you even aware of where that number came from? In case you aren't:
> 
> In August of 2007 surveys were done asking Ps3 owners ages 6 to 44 and xbox 360 owners on whether they were aware of the capabilities....40% of ps3 owners where aware of the BR player.
> 
> *yesterday* at CES *SONY* announced that 87% use their ps3's as br players and 84% plan to continue to buy movies for it....
> 
> that a major increase in just 4-5 months...you also have to consider the source. Of course, Sony wouldn't pad any numbers would they?
> 
> Both BR and HD are going to pad numbers dude....you need to look better at neutral surveys to get the truth.


Now you did it wolf, You made him start a poll.... :lol:


----------



## Carl Spock

I voted _What's Blu-ray?_ :grin:


----------



## apexmi

chris0 said:


> Agreed. Go ask the average DVD buyer about region-free discs or the greater capacity of BluRay, most won't have any idea what you're talking about. The sooner one format completely dominates the scene the better it is for HDM. As it was with DVD, the more the masses adopt the winner the more movies will be released and the lower prices will go on the movies and the players.
> 
> As far as differences in formats, any objective person (sometimes hard to find in all of this) will tell you that PQ and AQ are equal on both sides. Even a good "lossy" DD+ track, like that on Transformers, sounds pretty stellar.
> 
> Now this is a bit OT, but I saw this and though of the discussions about BR prices vs. HD DVD prices and how they compare to other technologies at various points in time. This was announced at CES today.
> http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9844838-67.html?tag=head
> And that's just a CD player!


The AVERAGE consumer will also tell you there is not a large enough difference between SD / HD disc quality, as there was from VHS to DVD or even SD broadcast to HDTV. Mass adoption is still way off if it ever happens, The more I talk to people not as into HD as I the more I feel HDM may have been doomed to being a niche from the beginning war or no war.


----------



## sigma1914

Maybe I'm alone here, but the one sided BR "fanboys" reminds me of cable fans vs. sat fans. Who cares if so & so company went BR? Granted, my "small" room theater is not top of the line, I'm very happy with the PQ of both formats. As for sound, neither sounds bad. As long as each of us are happy with our set-up, who cares if BR or HD wins?


----------



## Mixer

I got my PS3 the day after Black Friday with a deal so sweet you'd have to be insane to pass it up. It came with 10 (that I got to choose) Blu-Ray disks and I get to send away for 5 more. That's 15 movies for free at an average $25 but even at the lower end of $20 each that puts the PS3 at anywhere from $125-200 when the deal is done. 

I heard someone say that buying theater equipment from Walmart is not a good idea. Why? Does the largest retail company in the country (world?) get diffrent PS3 systems then where you shop? Is the 2 year warrentee I bought not as good? What's with the bashing?


----------



## johnzim63

sigma1914 said:


> Maybe I'm alone here, but the one sided BR "fanboys" reminds me of cable fans vs. sat fans. Who cares if so & so company went BR? Granted, my "small" room theater is not top of the line, I'm very happy with the PQ of both formats. As for sound, neither sounds bad. As long as each of us are happy with our set-up, who cares if BR or HD wins?


Here here! As long as you don't strain yourself and focus your eyes too sharply, it's all _a pleasant shade of gray_ anyway.


----------



## Carl Spock

No! Stop talking like this! I've finally seen the light and am switching totally to Blu-ray.

That's right, I'm selling my Toshiba HD-A2 and all the discs I have so far - maybe a total investment of $$350 - on ebay today. Maybe I can get $150 for everything. Then I will buy a Blu-ray player...OMG, I almost slipped...give me a sip of Sony Sauce...I'll buy a PS3...and start rebuying my discs. I can't get Star Trek on Blu-ray? Well, I'm a man. I can tough it out until it the gods decide to release it on Blu-ray. Why should I enjoy it in HD now? That's so yesterday's notion. Warners' decision makes that unthinkable. Same thing with Forbidden Planet, Transformers and King Kong. I don't need to enjoy those movies in hi-def. I'm strong. Who needs fun when you can have stoicism? I'd rather frown.

Where's more of that sauce?


----------



## apexmi

Carl Spock said:


> No! Stop talking like this! I've finally seen the light and am switching totally to Blu-ray.
> 
> That's right, I'm selling my Toshiba HD-A2 and all the discs I have so far - maybe a total investment of $$350 - on ebay today. Maybe I can get $150 for everything. Then I will buy a Blu-ray player...OMG, I almost slipped...give me a sip of Sony Sauce...I'll buy a PS3...and start rebuying my discs. I can't get Star Trek on Blu-ray? Well, I'm a man. I can tough it out until it the gods decide to release it on Blu-ray. Why should I enjoy it in HD now? That's so yesterday's notion. Warners' decision makes that unthinkable. Same thing with Forbidden Planet, Transformers and King Kong. I don't need to enjoy those movies in hi-def. I'm strong. Who needs fun when you can have stoicism? I'd rather frown.
> 
> Where's more of that sauce?


LOL :lol:


----------



## Snoofie

I know it was posted somewhere in this thread, but I lost it in the midst of all the "nanny nanny boo boo" posts. I just read again on Yahoo that Microsoft has said they will support Blu Ray if that is what the consumer wants. I don't know why I didn't think of that option. I can keep my 360 HD-DVD player and continue to watch what I already own and if HD-DVD ceases to exist and Blu Ray is the only option, then Microsoft might release a Blu Ray player for the 360 and I can just buy that! Then I get to keep only one gaming system and it will play both formats....aaahhhh I feel much better.


----------



## Snoofie

Carl Spock said:


> No! Stop talking like this! I've finally seen the light and am switching totally to Blu-ray.
> 
> That's right, I'm selling my Toshiba HD-A2 and all the discs I have so far - maybe a total investment of $$350 - on ebay today. Maybe I can get $150 for everything. Then I will buy a Blu-ray player...OMG, I almost slipped...give me a sip of Sony Sauce...I'll buy a PS3...and start rebuying my discs. I can't get Star Trek on Blu-ray? Well, I'm a man. I can tough it out until it the gods decide to release it on Blu-ray. Why should I enjoy it in HD now? That's so yesterday's notion. Warners' decision makes that unthinkable. Same thing with Forbidden Planet, Transformers and King Kong. I don't need to enjoy those movies in hi-def. I'm strong. Who needs fun when you can have stoicism? I'd rather frown.
> 
> Where's more of that sauce?


You know I gulped a little too much of that sauce here lately. I had convinced myself to buy a PS3 and enjoy Blu Ray and all would be well. However, I really don't want a PS3. I like my 360 and I just can't see paying the same price for a stand alone Blu Ray player as a PS3 costs. Now, if Blu Ray players drop to around $150 or less then I would buy a stand alone player and replace my current DVD with it. Until that time, or the 360 releases a Blu Ray add-on, then I will stick with HD-DVD or nothing.


----------



## texaswolf

Carl Spock said:


> No! Stop talking like this! I've finally seen the light and am switching totally to Blu-ray.
> 
> That's right, I'm selling my Toshiba HD-A2 and all the discs I have so far - maybe a total investment of $$350 - on ebay today. Maybe I can get $150 for everything. Then I will buy a Blu-ray player...OMG, I almost slipped...give me a sip of Sony Sauce...I'll buy a PS3...and start rebuying my discs. I can't get Star Trek on Blu-ray? Well, I'm a man. I can tough it out until it the gods decide to release it on Blu-ray. Why should I enjoy it in HD now? That's so yesterday's notion. Warners' decision makes that unthinkable. Same thing with Forbidden Planet, Transformers and King Kong. I don't need to enjoy those movies in hi-def. I'm strong. Who needs fun when you can have stoicism? I'd rather frown.
> 
> Where's more of that sauce?


yeah pass that over here...i don't know what i was thinking enjoying the Matrix Trilogy for the last eight months in HD, or Transformers for the last couple....we really should get rid of them and wait for the BR release....oh wait we dont have to...once the war is over, the self destruct timer on them will activate!


----------



## texaswolf

apexmi said:


> Now you did it wolf, You made him start a poll.... :lol:


lol...you gotta love it..posting that poll on a sat/tech forum...well what do you expect form people who only listen to one sides news, and taking it for gospel.


----------



## Richard King

chris0 said:


> Now this is a bit OT, but I saw this and though of the discussions about BR prices vs. HD DVD prices and how they compare to other technologies at various points in time. This was announced at CES today.
> http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9844838-67.html?tag=head
> And that's just a CD player!


A player like this deserves to be hooked up to only the best in audio equipment and OBVIOUSLY to get the best out of it, it needs a good subwoofer. You just might be interested in this little guy: http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm


----------



## elaclair

Richard King said:


> A player like this deserves to be hooked up to only the best in audio equipment and OBVIOUSLY to get the best out of it, it needs a good subwoofer. You just might be interested in this little guy: http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm


Oooooh baby! I WANT it!!!!!


----------



## Richard King

I just ordered one for my car.


----------



## apexmi

Richard King said:


> I just ordered one for my car.


put me down for 3, it's only money... :lol:


----------



## texaswolf

Richard King said:


> A player like this deserves to be hooked up to only the best in audio equipment and OBVIOUSLY to get the best out of it, it needs a good subwoofer. You just might be interested in this little guy: http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm


:new_Eyecr

Imagine watching Rave in there eh King! lol

or even movies...ooh transformers would sound good with all that bass

i'd never leave that room....


----------



## dhhaines

Richard King said:


> A player like this deserves to be hooked up to only the best in audio equipment and OBVIOUSLY to get the best out of it, it needs a good subwoofer. You just might be interested in this little guy: http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm


 WOW just wow! I wonder how I can sneak this past my wife as a needed expense???? :lol:


----------



## Richard King

I think this would go very well with my 150" Panasonic plasma. :lol:


----------



## texaswolf

dhhaines said:


> WOW just wow! I wonder how I can sneak this past my wife as a needed expense???? :lol:


lol..ummmm Panic room? Fall out shelter? We are in Texas...so i plan on going with the "storm shelter" approach.:lol:


----------



## texaswolf

Richard King said:


> I think this would go very well with my 150" Panasonic plasma. :lol:


i think I would go well in front of you 150" panasonic...lol

you have a popcorn machine by chance?


----------



## Richard King

Certainly, I turned the spare bedroom into a popcorn machine.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> i think I would go well in front of you 150" panasonic...lol
> 
> you have a popcorn machine by chance?


My popcorn maker supports the newest kernal chipset for optimum HD POP technology and Scent-Enhancer EX®.
And my soda fountain has new Bitstream Autoflow 2000 technology to ensure the richest mixture of carbination and syrup which tastes best in my new stainless steel Soda Container Deluxe with ProChill 2.0


----------



## ebaltz

Article from the virtual press office at CES 2008:

Blu-ray Disc Movie Titles Outsold HD DVD by Nearly 2-to-1in the United States and Nearly 3-to-1 in Europe During 2007; Blu-ray Totally Dominates Japanese Market
Blu-ray Disc movie titles outsold HD DVD in the United States by a nearly 2-to-1 margin last year, according to sales figures from Home Media Research, an* independent market research firm*.
Blu-ray titles outsold HD DVD in the United States every single week of the year, according to HMR. And Blu-ray editions of titles released on both formats consistently outsold their HD DVD counterparts by significant margins. Sales of the Blu-ray edition of "300," the bestselling high-definition title to date, have outpaced sales of the HD DVD version by 2-to-1.
According to the European based market research firm, GfK media control - OCC, high-definition movie title sales in Europe were nearly 3-to-1 in favor of Blu-ray. And in Japan the margin was an overwhelming 14-to-1.
Sales of high-definition playback devices were even stronger in Blu-ray's favor - more than 3 -to-1 in the United States, 10-to-1 in Europe and more than 100-to-1 in Japan.
The strong consumer preference for Blu-ray was cited by Warner Bros. as the principle reason for their January 4th decision to publish solely on Blu-ray Disc beginning in May of 2008.
The Blu-ray Disc Association released the sales figures for high-definition movie titles and playback devices during a news conference at the 2008 Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas.
A number of major studio executives spoke on behalf of Blu-ray at the event: Danny Kaye, Executive Vice President, Research and Technology, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment; Bob Chapek, President, Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment Worldwide; David Bishop, President, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment; Ron Sanders, President, Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Worldwide; and Steve Beeks, President, Lionsgate Home Entertainment Worldwide.
Other Blu-ray highlights for 2007:
* Total US sales of Blu-ray movie titles topped six million in December, 2007. It took 10 months for Blu-ray sales to top one million, just over three months to reach the second million, under three months to reach the third million, just over two months to reach the fourth million, and one month to go from four to six million. Despite a significant head start in the market, HD DVD didn't reach the 2.5 million mark until the middle of November and has yet to reach four million.
* Worldwide, eighty-five percent of all hardware sold that is capable of playing high-definition discs plays Blu-ray.
* Sixty-seven percent of all high-definition titles sold worldwide in 2007 were sold on Blu-ray.
* Seventeen of the top 20 selling high-definition titles in the United States are available on Blu-ray.
* In November, despite the $99 HD DVD player fire sale, Blu-ray accounted for nearly 70 percent of all high-definition disc sales in the United States. During the final week of November - including Black Friday - Blu-ray accounted for 72 percent of all high-definition disc sales.
The most recent data from SCA indicates that the total number of Blu-ray capable playback devices in the United states grew from 2.7 million at the end of November, to 3.7 million through the end of December.


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> lol...you gotta love it..posting that poll on a sat/tech forum...well what do you expect form people who only listen to one sides news, and taking it for gospel.


Every time someone posts a poll on this site the same arguments come up, it's not scientific, what do you expect on this kind of forum, etc, etc. If that's the case why even have the poll feature available - everyone knows (or should know) that you will only get responses from people that must care about the technologies or they wouldn't be posting on this forum! The point is they can still be fun (remember fun???? :icon_da: ) and maybe even pretty interesting. Personally I was sorry to see it get closed as I would have been interested in the outcome - not to use it to beat someone over the head with, or even to try to prove a point - just as some incidental information about the people on this forum.


----------



## Carl Spock

Richard King said:


> A player like this deserves to be hooked up to only the best in audio equipment and OBVIOUSLY to get the best out of it, it needs a good subwoofer. You just might be interested in this little guy: http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm


I love it! It reminds me of the horn loaded valley I want to build - giant concrete horns to power an entire valley. :grin:


----------



## phat78boy

ebaltz said:


> Article from the virtual press office at CES 2008:
> 
> Blu-ray Disc Movie Titles Outsold HD DVD by Nearly 2-to-1in the United States and Nearly 3-to-1 in Europe During 2007; Blu-ray Totally Dominates Japanese Market
> Blu-ray Disc movie titles outsold HD DVD in the United States by a nearly 2-to-1 margin last year, according to sales figures from Home Media Research, an* independent market research firm*.
> Blu-ray titles outsold HD DVD in the United States every single week of the year, according to HMR. And Blu-ray editions of titles released on both formats consistently outsold their HD DVD counterparts by significant margins. Sales of the Blu-ray edition of "300," the bestselling high-definition title to date, have outpaced sales of the HD DVD version by 2-to-1.
> According to the European based market research firm, GfK media control - OCC, high-definition movie title sales in Europe were nearly 3-to-1 in favor of Blu-ray. And in Japan the margin was an overwhelming 14-to-1.
> Sales of high-definition playback devices were even stronger in Blu-ray's favor - more than 3 -to-1 in the United States, 10-to-1 in Europe and more than 100-to-1 in Japan.
> The strong consumer preference for Blu-ray was cited by Warner Bros. as the principle reason for their January 4th decision to publish solely on Blu-ray Disc beginning in May of 2008.
> The Blu-ray Disc Association released the sales figures for high-definition movie titles and playback devices during a news conference at the 2008 Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas.
> A number of major studio executives spoke on behalf of Blu-ray at the event: Danny Kaye, Executive Vice President, Research and Technology, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment; Bob Chapek, President, Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment Worldwide; David Bishop, President, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment; Ron Sanders, President, Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Worldwide; and Steve Beeks, President, Lionsgate Home Entertainment Worldwide.
> Other Blu-ray highlights for 2007:
> * Total US sales of Blu-ray movie titles topped six million in December, 2007. It took 10 months for Blu-ray sales to top one million, just over three months to reach the second million, under three months to reach the third million, just over two months to reach the fourth million, and one month to go from four to six million. Despite a significant head start in the market, HD DVD didn't reach the 2.5 million mark until the middle of November and has yet to reach four million.
> * Worldwide, eighty-five percent of all hardware sold that is capable of playing high-definition discs plays Blu-ray.
> * Sixty-seven percent of all high-definition titles sold worldwide in 2007 were sold on Blu-ray.
> * Seventeen of the top 20 selling high-definition titles in the United States are available on Blu-ray.
> * In November, despite the $99 HD DVD player fire sale, Blu-ray accounted for nearly 70 percent of all high-definition disc sales in the United States. During the final week of November - including Black Friday - Blu-ray accounted for 72 percent of all high-definition disc sales.
> The most recent data from SCA indicates that the total number of Blu-ray capable playback devices in the United states grew from 2.7 million at the end of November, to 3.7 million through the end of December.


With millions of PS3 Blu-Ray players, is this really so surprising? My question would be what is the percentage of movies compared to the amount of players? Selling 100,000 movies for HD-DVD is much more impressive then selling 250,000 movies for Blu-Ray.

The fact the numbers are usually so close, in terms of movie sales, tells me HD-DVD is outperforming Blu-Ray as they have a smaller installed base. Of course, none of that matters if studios aren't releasing in that format.


----------



## Carl Spock

bobukcat said:


> The point is they can still be fun (remember fun???? :icon_da: ) and maybe even pretty interesting. Personally I was sorry to see it get closed


My bet is that for TPTB, this issue has gone past being fun to now both work and a pain in the ass. I'm glad to see the lighter tone in this thread today. I agree - fun is good.


----------



## ebaltz

phat78boy said:


> With millions of PS3 Blu-Ray players, is this really so surprising? My question would be what is the percentage of movies compared to the amount of players? Selling 100,000 movies for HD-DVD is much more impressive then selling 250,000 movies for Blu-Ray.
> 
> The fact the numbers are usually so close, in terms of movie sales, tells me HD-DVD is outperforming Blu-Ray as they have a smaller installed base. Of course, non of that matters if studios aren't releasing in that format.


I could have predicted that spin from a mile away. Only and HD DVD fanboy could spin a loss in every category as a win. Again, up is down, black is white. Oh well its moot point. The war is basically over, blu-ray knows it, Toshiba knows it, the studios know it, retail stores know it, Microsoft knows it, the media knows it, I guess the only people who don't know (i.e. accept it) yet are the lone Japanese soldiers on remote islands (aka HD DVD fanboys).


----------



## texaswolf

Japanese soldiers on remote islands have HD players? sweeeet:alterhase


----------



## Carl Spock

Of course. They can't have B_r_u-ray.

_(Come on, it's just a joke. Maybe not in the best taste, but just a joke. I apologize ahead of time to all Japanese people.)_


----------



## GrumpyBear

texaswolf said:


> lol..ummmm Panic room? Fall out shelter? We are in Texas...so i plan on going with the "storm shelter" approach.:lol:


When you build it, don't use Bricks, use Concrete all the way. 
So will you be taking a PS3 or a HD-DVD(with a Amazon England link) player with you?


----------



## bobukcat

phat78boy said:


> With millions of PS3 Blu-Ray players, is this really so surprising? My question would be what is the percentage of movies compared to the amount of players? Selling 100,000 movies for HD-DVD is much more impressive then selling 250,000 movies for Blu-Ray.
> 
> The fact the numbers are usually so close, in terms of movie sales, tells me HD-DVD is outperforming Blu-Ray as they have a smaller installed base. Of course, none of that matters if studios aren't releasing in that format.


The studios don't sell players (Sony would be an arguable exception), just programming so they don't care about the titles to player ratio, just what format is selling the most titles. If the numbers from the quoted company are correct, and I've not seen any hard evidence they are not, Warner can point directly to them to back-up their decision. I'm sure there are probably other factors as well, but this gives them solid reasoning to be sure.


----------



## machavez00

ebaltz said:


> I could have predicted that spin from a mile away. Only and HD DVD fanboy could spin a loss in every category as a win. Again, up is down, black is white. Oh well its moot point. The war is basically over, blu-ray knows it, Toshiba knows it, the studios know it, retail stores know it, Microsoft knows it, the media knows it, I guess the only people who don't know (i.e. accept it) yet are the lone Japanese soldiers on remote islands (aka HD DVD fanboys).


it's over for both
XStreamHD unveiled press conference, live - Engadget
Hmmmm


----------



## texaswolf

Carl Spock said:


> Of course. They can't have B_r_u-ray.
> 
> _(Come on, it's just a joke. Maybe not in the best taste, but just a joke. I apologize ahead of time to all Japanese people.)_


:lol: i thought it was funny...


----------



## phat78boy

ebaltz said:


> I could have predicted that spin from a mile away. Only and HD DVD fanboy could spin a loss in every category as a win. Again, up is down, black is white. Oh well its moot point. The war is basically over, blu-ray knows it, Toshiba knows it, the studios know it, retail stores know it, Microsoft knows it, the media knows it, I guess the only people who don't know (i.e. accept it) yet are the lone Japanese soldiers on remote islands (aka HD DVD fanboys).


I'm not a fan boy, although I will admit I prefer the HD-DVD standards. When Blu-Ray matures to 2.0, very soon, it will be a much better product. It will still have more lockdowns then I care for, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure how I you think I spun that story? Isn't that business 101? More players is usually going to equal more sales right? Sony was very creative in making you take Blu-Ray with its PS3. Of course, Sony has always been known for telling you what you want.


----------



## apexmi

The sad part about the whole mess is that none of this is even a blip on general news outlet mass media/general consumers radar. That does not bode well for any HDM format.


----------



## phat78boy

bobukcat said:


> The studios don't sell players (Sony would be an arguable exception), just programming so they don't care about the titles to player ratio, just what format is selling the most titles. If the numbers from the quoted company are correct, and I've not seen any hard evidence they are not, Warner can point directly to them to back-up their decision. I'm sure there are probably other factors as well, but this gives them solid reasoning to be sure.


Its a mute point as they studios have spoken, but the age old arguement still stands here. They sold game machines that can play Blu-Ray movies, not Blu-Ray players. It was a very good strategy and most likely the one main reason they won.


----------



## GrumpyBear

texaswolf said:


> Japanese soldiers on remote islands have HD players? sweeeet:alterhase


I think all those WWII vet's will come out when they find out, they too will have to upgrade thier (BUY NEW ONES), BD devices, as they wont be supported under BD Profile2.0, except of course those lucky enough to be given the PS3, so much for the other mutiple Brands.:lol:


----------



## texaswolf

GrumpyBear said:


> When you build it, don't use Bricks, use Concrete all the way.
> So will you be taking a PS3 or a HD-DVD(with a Amazon England link) player with you?


hmmm good question...i was thinking of the HDDVD....but since you, me, him, her, Bob and Doug McKenzie, and my sisters best friends cousins uncles dog from Fargo know it...the wars over...thus the imminent explosion of my HD player could damage the woofers.

I had planned on the Ps3 running the lighting system, washer, dryer and air filtrations system (it does everything you know)...but it may just have to suffice as a BR player


----------



## Carl Spock

apexmi said:


> The sad part about the whole mess is that none of this is even a blip on general news outlet mass media/general consumers radar. That does not bode well for any HDM format.


Totally agreed. I heard one story on NPR's All Things Considered news show. I also saw a passing mention on one morning TV talk/news show. I can't tell you which one.

There is one good thing regarding the invisibility of Blu-ray vs. HD DVD. Someone said this format war will be decided in board rooms, not show rooms. I thought that was insightful. Joe Average won't lose any money over this one, only us early adopters, and frankly, we're used to that. If, and it's a huge if, HDM takes off, the consumer will get their money's worth.


----------



## texaswolf

phat78boy said:


> Sony was very creative in making you take Blu-Ray with its PS3. Of course, Sony has always been known for telling you what you want.


Or not telling you and putting spy software on your pc


----------



## texaswolf

Carl Spock said:


> Totally agreed. I heard one story on NPR's All Things Considered news show. I also saw a passing mention on one morning TV talk/news show. I can't tell you which one.
> 
> There is one good thing regarding the invisibility of Blu-ray vs. HD DVD. Someone said this format war will be decided in board rooms, not show rooms. I thought that was insightful. Joe Average won't lose any money over this one, only us early adopters, and frankly, we're used to that. If, and it's a huge if, HDM takes off, the consumer will get their money's worth.


exactly...unless the players are at Joe average price....it isn't gonna matter...difference with this and the VHS/Beta thing, is people have DVDs to fall back on or upconvert until price is reasonable.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Or not telling you and putting spy software on your pc


Have you scene a psychiatrist for your Sony hatred paranoia?


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> it's over for both
> XStreamHD unveiled press conference, live - Engadget
> Hmmmm


I've heard that the PS3 can work with this after a SW download. :lol:


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Have you scene a psychiatrist for your Sony hatred paranoia?


as you can see i have 2 sony products, i just wait until they are on sale....

Apparently you don't remember them being busted for putting tracking software on peoples computers to see what music they are downloading? They are the reason BR has so many protection/playback issue...too concerned about piracy...anydvd keeps cracking the BD protection


----------



## Carl Spock

That was also a pretty infamous move by Sony, putting that tracking info on your PC that was embedded in the root menus. All you had to do was play the CD once and your computer was infected. Spyware is bad enough but to have to update your bios to totally get rid of it? That was a bit much. 

(You could disable it without re-writing the bios but it was still there. I'm still furious at Fuji for a similar trick with one of their pieces of software for a digital camera I bought. Their damn software even changed the boot order in my bios! That took down my computer for a couple of days because I couldn't get it to boot up. I thought I'd lost a hard drive. At least Sony's screw-up didn't do that.)

None of us are perfect, ebaltz. Not even Sony.

And this is coming from a true Blu Sony fan. I've owned a lot of Sony over the years. I still do.


----------



## apexmi

Mike728 said:


> I've heard that the PS3 can work with this after a SW download. :lol:


:thats:


----------



## cartrivision

sigma1914 said:


> Maybe I'm alone here, but the one sided BR "fanboys" reminds me of cable fans vs. sat fans. Who cares if so & so company went BR? Granted, my "small" room theater is not top of the line, I'm very happy with the PQ of both formats. As for sound, neither sounds bad. As long as each of us are happy with our set-up, who cares if BR or HD wins?


I don't think that most people care. I think that most people just want to have every released title be available on one or the other format (or every title be available on both formats) so they don't have to buy two different players, and that is very close to happening for Blu-ray, which will quickly make HD-DVD players the Betamax of the 21st century.... perfectly good hardware that eventually nobody will sell, and that will only owned by people who acquired an HD-DVD library before the format lost studio support and died.


----------



## GrumpyBear

apexmi said:


> The sad part about the whole mess is that none of this is even a blip on general news outlet mass media/general consumers radar. That does not bode well for any HDM format.


That really is important to remember in all this, we can post and talk all we want. Say war is over, or no the battle is still on going. The PT Barnum Crowd is pretty much oblivous to all this. Have you looked at a Bestbuy lately?(I don't go to Blockbuster anymore) People walk by the end cap's filled with Blu-Ray and HD movies, in droves. Overall, in all this TOTAL DVD's sales are DOWN. Was talking to a friend about this last night and his question, is why does everybody think there has to be a winner or a loser? There were cry's years ago that there could only be 1 game system, we now have 4,(Xbox, PS, Nintendo, PC) some died off, not all. I tried to explain, how the Movie company's need one format, his comeback was they sold VHS and DVD for years at the sametime, and STILL DO.

This really is a SMALL blip, on things right now, plenty of time for all sorts of changes to happen. The Mass consumers, our still out there with no idea, they aren't on the Fence at all, and if a battle of formats didn't get them INTERESTED, a single format might not either.


----------



## dhhaines

cartrivision said:


> I don't think that most people care. I think that most people just want to have every released title be available on one or the other format (or every title be available on both formats) so they don't have to buy two different players, and that is very close to happening for Blu-ray, which will quickly make HD-DVD players the Betamax of the 21st century.... perfectly good hardware that eventually nobody will sell, and that will only owned by people who acquired an HD-DVD library before the format lost studio support and died.


 I just think the whole thing is a mute point, both are just an interim format anyway. It just means I have to get a bigger rack to put another piece of equiptment in, to go with the VHS, Beta(yes I still have one hooked up :eek2: ), DVD player, DVD recorder, HD-DVD player, Blu Ray player, and whatever the next "great thing" is.


----------



## elaclair

dhhaines said:


> I just think the whole thing is a mute point, both are just an interim format anyway. It just means I have to get a bigger rack to put another piece of equiptment in, to go with the VHS, Beta(yes I still have one hooked up :eek2: ), DVD player, DVD recorder, HD-DVD player, Blu Ray player, and whatever the next "great thing" is.


What? No Laserdisc??


----------



## cartrivision

Carl Spock said:


> No! Stop talking like this! I've finally seen the light and am switching totally to Blu-ray.
> 
> That's right, I'm selling my Toshiba HD-A2 and all the discs I have so far - maybe a total investment of $$350 - on ebay today. Maybe I can get $150 for everything. Then I will buy a Blu-ray player...OMG, I almost slipped...give me a sip of Sony Sauce...I'll buy a PS3...and start rebuying my discs. I can't get Star Trek on Blu-ray? Well, I'm a man. I can tough it out until it the gods decide to release it on Blu-ray. Why should I enjoy it in HD now? That's so yesterday's notion. Warners' decision makes that unthinkable. Same thing with Forbidden Planet, Transformers and King Kong. I don't need to enjoy those movies in hi-def. I'm strong. Who needs fun when you can have stoicism? I'd rather frown.
> 
> Where's more of that sauce?


You really know it's over when the best that HD-DVD owners can come up with is that the existing HD-DVD hardware and software continue to work after the death of the format.


----------



## machavez00

phat78boy said:


> I'm not a fan boy, although I will admit I prefer the HD-DVD standards. When Blu-Ray matures to 2.0, very soon, it will be a much better product. It will still have more lockdowns then I care for, but it is what it is.
> 
> I'm not sure how I you think I spun that story? Isn't that business 101? More players is usually going to equal more sales right? Sony was very creative in making you take Blu-Ray with its PS3. Of course, Sony has always been known for telling you what you want.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1379364&postcount=1048


----------



## Chris Blount

dhhaines said:


> I just think the whole thing is a mute point, both are just an interim format anyway. It just means I have to get a bigger rack to put another piece of equiptment in, to go with the VHS, Beta(yes I still have one hooked up :eek2: ), DVD player, DVD recorder, HD-DVD player, Blu Ray player, and whatever the next "great thing" is.


So true. I also still have my Beta and Laserdisc players hooked up. They both work fine. Same will go for the HD-DVD player. The format might die, but it will still give me years of service.


----------



## dhhaines

elaclair said:


> What? No Laserdisc??


 No... I missed that one.  I must not have had the money at the time. :lol:


----------



## GrumpyBear

Carl Spock said:


> That was also a pretty infamous move by Sony, putting that tracking info on your PC that was embedded in the root menus. All you had to do was play the CD once and your computer was infected. Spyware is bad enough but to have to update your bios to totally get rid of it? That was a bit much.
> 
> (You could disable it without re-writing the bios but it was still there. I'm still furious at Fuji for a similar trick with one of their pieces of software for a digital camera I bought. Their damn software even changed the boot order in my bios! That took down my computer for a couple of days because I couldn't get it to boot up. I thought I'd lost a hard drive. At least Sony's screw-up didn't do that.)
> 
> None of us are perfect, ebaltz. Not even Sony.
> 
> And this is coming from a true Blu Sony fan. I've owned a lot of Sony over the years. I still do.


I personally would be all over Blu-Ray, if anybody else was in change other than Sony. Their History going all the way back to BetaMax, has been anti-consumer. They make good hardware, thats not the problem, just look at recent history, granted this was blocked by others, HDMI1.3(a) has built in DRM protection, and Sony wanted to cut off all users that don't use HDMI, if you used component connections you were about to be screwed. All for Technology that gets broken as fast as they get it going. Hackers WILL ALWAYS HACK, the VAST Majority just want to buy and watch what they want they way the want, and are willing to PAY. Sony just feels everybody is a hacker and a cheater, I don't like be lumped that way or treated that way.

Personally I believe Blu-Ray is superior technology, and glad its being used where it will be of most value already in Hard Drives, granted that doesn't fix the drive to spindle ratio, but still allows huge volumes. Drool


----------



## GrumpyBear

elaclair said:


> What? No Laserdisc??


I wish I could have afforded a laserDisc when they came out. I would love to have one. I would put it with my TRS-80 and Commadore-64, yes they BOTH still work, and the kids play BattleChess on a green Screen and LOVE it, as a through back, laugh and say wow this was HIGH TECH?!?!? I even have my Zork disk's but now I am dating my Teen years.


----------



## bobukcat

phat78boy said:


> Sony was very creative in making you take Blu-Ray with its PS3. Of course, Sony has always been known for telling you what you want.


They didn't make us take anything, they made a bold move that, at least for now, looks to be pretty smart by including that BD player and selling the game system for a loss so they can make money on game and BD titles for years. I would never have purchased a PS3 (I did have a PS2 but really got out of any real gaming a couple years ago) if not for the BD player - so their decision worked for them in my case.

You could make a case that for strict gamers they are forced to take the BD player with their 3rd gen console (if you count Atari and other predecessors are these 7th generation consoles????  ), and I'll give you that, but since it's been speculated that just the hardware (processors, hard drive, e-net, etc) aside from the BD drive would price the PS3 where it is anyway it's still probably a wash to that sector of consumers as well.

I've actually never been a big fan of Sony except for the PS, PS2 and their older Walkman products. Their TVs historically had great pictures but poor reliabilty IME, but they did help to develop the CD with Philips, so not every format has worked out poorly for them.


----------



## chris0

Carl Spock said:


> Of course. They can't have B_r_u-ray.
> 
> _(Come on, it's just a joke. Maybe not in the best taste, but just a joke. I apologize ahead of time to all Japanese people.)_


Come one, now you're just being ridicurous.


----------



## bobukcat

Carl Spock said:


> That was also a pretty infamous move by Sony, putting that tracking info on your PC that was embedded in the root menus. All you had to do was play the CD once and your computer was infected. Spyware is bad enough but to have to update your bios to totally get rid of it? That was a bit much.
> 
> (You could disable it without re-writing the bios but it was still there. I'm still furious at Fuji for a similar trick with one of their pieces of software for a digital camera I bought. Their damn software even changed the boot order in my bios! That took down my computer for a couple of days because I couldn't get it to boot up. I thought I'd lost a hard drive. At least Sony's screw-up didn't do that.)
> 
> None of us are perfect, ebaltz. Not even Sony.
> 
> And this is coming from a true Blu Sony fan. I've owned a lot of Sony over the years. I still do.


The classic Sonyism (I'm copyrighting that term along with PornoFile that I created earlier in this thread!  ) was when they put autoloaded copy protection s/w from some music CDs onto your PC when the disk was inserted and then published instructions on how to defeat it in order to get the music onto IPods. Thanks for wasting our time on that one! :nono2:


----------



## bobukcat

GrumpyBear said:


> That really is important to remember in all this, we can post and talk all we want. Say war is over, or no the battle is still on going. The PT Barnum Crowd is pretty much oblivous to all this. Have you looked at a Bestbuy lately?(I don't go to Blockbuster anymore) People walk by the end cap's filled with Blu-Ray and HD movies, in droves. Overall, in all this TOTAL DVD's sales are DOWN. Was talking to a friend about this last night and his question, is why does everybody think there has to be a winner or a loser? There were cry's years ago that there could only be 1 game system, we now have 4,(Xbox, PS, Nintendo, PC) some died off, not all. I tried to explain, how the Movie company's need one format, his comeback was they sold VHS and DVD for years at the sametime, and STILL DO.
> 
> This really is a SMALL blip, on things right now, plenty of time for all sorts of changes to happen. The Mass consumers, our still out there with no idea, they aren't on the Fence at all, and if a battle of formats didn't get them INTERESTED, a single format might not either.


I think the only hope either format has is to get a high penetration rate into people buying new TVs because of the upcoming digital conversion. I know that it isn't really going to force people to buy a new TV, but a large percentage of people certainly thinks that's what it means - I've fielded hundreds of questions about it from friends / family who rely on me for advice in this arena (oh, how I LOVE to spend other people's money on gear for them! !Devil_lol ) and they all inevitable believed their TVs would be obsolete, even though they all use cable or sat. People without a good source of information will be stuck with advice from a "salesperson" at one of the retailers, and God know's they won't tell them they don't need a new TV.


----------



## bobukcat

machavez00 said:


> it's over for both
> XStreamHD unveiled press conference, live - Engadget
> Hmmmm


Smells a little Voom-ish to me. I.E. not enough of a market to support it / too early to the market. I could be wrong, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once, and bought a PS3, so I doubt it! :grin:


----------



## smiddy

Carl Spock said:


> Of course. They can't have B_r_u-ray.
> 
> _(Come on, it's just a joke. Maybe not in the best taste, but just a joke. I apologize ahead of time to all Japanese people.)_


It's fried rice, you p_l_ick!  :lol: I thought it was funny.


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> The classic Sonyism (I'm copyrighting that term along with PornoFile that I created earlier in this thread!  ) was when they put autoloaded copy protection s/w from some music CDs onto your PC when the disk was inserted and then published instructions on how to defeat it in order to get the music onto IPods. Thanks for wasting our time on that one! :nono2:


lol...hurry up and put WRM (Word Rights Managment) on it before Sony does!

I wonder how much money they have wasted total on the anti piracy thing...lawsuits against them and all....could end up being the biggest waste of money for the decade!


----------



## GrumpyBear

bobukcat said:


> I think the only hope either format has is to get a high penetration rate into people buying new TVs because of the upcoming digital conversion. I know that it isn't really going to force people to buy a new TV, but a large percentage of people certainly thinks that's what it means - I've fielded hundreds of questions about it from friends / family who rely on me for advice in this arena (oh, how I LOVE to spend other people's money on gear for them! !Devil_lol ) and they all inevitable believed their TVs would be obsolete, even though they all use cable or sat. People without a good source of information will be stuck with advice from a "salesperson" at one of the retailers, and God know's they won't tell them they don't need a new TV.


Oh I agree, High Penertation and QUICKLY, very telling line in Warner Bros annoucement was "Window of Opportunity", for either format. I too like spending other peoples money. I even let my Parents buy a Sony TV(See I don't Truely hate Sony) They have Dish, but after watching TV at our house and going back home they decided after YEARS it was time to buy one. Ton's of misinformation about the upcoming change next year, and it doesn't help that some feel it has been pushed off as its to HIGH TECH, oh well. This industry isn't much different than the computer world I live and work in, upgrades and changes, systems performance doubling an the good ol 18month schedule. Lots of people keep looking at what they have now, (it was put out last year or even later) as cutting edge that wont be replaced) its AV equipment. That's just wrong, once something has come to market, the replacement is already in the works, which replacement product depends on how entrenched with the MASS's(not the cutting edge users) the current product is. We are getting past the point of where a HD DVD source, needs to be entrenched, and no matter what a purist thinks, its the PT Barnhum crowd is what will drive things. If PT crowd can "live" with it and buy it in bulk, treat it like its disposable, and easly replaced, they will be all over it. If its expensive and needs to handled with Care, they wont be all over it.


----------



## phat78boy

bobukcat said:


> They didn't make us take anything, they made a bold move that, at least for now, looks to be pretty smart by including that BD player and selling the game system for a loss so they can make money on game and BD titles for years. I would never have purchased a PS3 (I did have a PS2 but really got out of any real gaming a couple years ago) if not for the BD player - so their decision worked for them in my case.
> 
> You could make a case that for strict gamers they are forced to take the BD player with their 3rd gen console (if you count Atari and other predecessors are these 7th generation consoles????  ), and I'll give you that, but since it's been speculated that just the hardware (processors, hard drive, e-net, etc) aside from the BD drive would price the PS3 where it is anyway it's still probably a wash to that sector of consumers as well.
> 
> I've actually never been a big fan of Sony except for the PS, PS2 and their older Walkman products. Their TVs historically had great pictures but poor reliabilty IME, but they did help to develop the CD with Philips, so not every format has worked out poorly for them.


I'm sorry, but when there is no use for a Blu-Ray drive concerning video games.....it was forced on you. Say what you will, but you can't even find a stand alone PC drive for under 200$. I'd have think the PS3 would be much cheaper without it. While it might have cost them a format war, Microsoft giving you a choice if you wanted a HD drive or not is the right one to me. After all, these drives have nothing to do with game console they are put in.

I'm sure many purchased the PS3 for its Blu-Ray drive. My point is many didn't. Yet they paid for something they might never use because Sony told them they had to have it or get nothing. Sony has always been known for this and will not change. I agree with other posters in that I would be more on Blu-Ray's side if it wasn't for Sony and their known tactics.


----------



## GrumpyBear

texaswolf said:


> lol...hurry up and put WRM (Word Rights Managment) on it before Sony does!
> 
> I wonder how much money they have wasted total on the anti piracy thing...lawsuits against them and all....could end up being the biggest waste of money for the decade!


You would have to count in the late 70's as well, and all they way through today, almost 30yrs worth. scarry part is, adjusting for inflation, would really screw up the numbers, but would be cool to see.


----------



## Carl Spock

I love how Sony will continue to spend money on something to prove that, _damn it_, they are right!

Anybody else remember the Beta Stacker?

Thoroughly pissed at consistently being beat by VHS in recording time, Sony came up with a tape changer for your Betamax that loaded new tapes into the front of the unit. Or at least it was supposed to. The Beta Stacker was way too mechanically complicated and rarely worked just like you expected it to.










Let's not sell Sony short. They have had more than their share of winners:

- the CD
- the Walkman
- Trinitron TVs
- 3/4" U-Matic pro machines
- Beta pro video decks
- the frickin' transistor radio!

Sony has also had some huge individual sellers over the years. The PS2 comes to mind.

But it's been a while for them. Sony should have invented the iPod. It's right up their alley. Having Blu-ray be a huge success would be a godsend for Sony.


----------



## texaswolf

phat78boy said:


> I'm sorry, but when there is no use for a Blu-Ray drive concerning video games.....it was forced on you. Say what you will, but you can't even find a stand alone PC drive for under 200$. I'd have think the PS3 would be much cheaper without it. While it might have cost them a format war, Microsoft giving you a choice if you wanted a HD drive or not is the right one to me. After all, these drives have nothing to do with game console they are put in.
> 
> I'm sure many purchased the PS3 for its Blu-Ray drive. My point is many didn't. Yet they paid for something they might never use because Sony told them they had to have it or get nothing. Sony has always been known for this and will not change. I agree with other posters in that I would be more on Blu-Ray's side if it wasn't for Sony and their known tactics.


yeah..thats a good point...Sony wouldn't be bleeding the money they are on every PS3 sold if they didn't add the BR...and many more people could afford to buy it. Packing it with a BR and only with a BR gave PS3 fans (a lot of which are kids) no choice but to "buy" a BR player....Gamers want the game console...kids want the game...some want both...none had choice.


----------



## GrumpyBear

phat78boy said:


> I'm sorry, but when there is no use for a Blu-Ray drive concerning video games.....it was forced on you. Say what you will, but you can't even find a stand alone PC drive for under 200$. I'd have think the PS3 would be much cheaper without it. While it might have cost them a format war, Microsoft giving you a choice if you wanted a HD drive or not is the right one to me. After all, these drives have nothing to do with game console they are put in.
> 
> I'm sure many purchased the PS3 for its Blu-Ray drive. My point is many didn't. Yet they paid for something they might never use because Sony told them they had to have it or get nothing. Sony has always been known for this and will not change. I agree with other posters in that I would be more on Blu-Ray's side if it wasn't for Sony and their known tactics.


PS3 needed away to seperate itself from the crowd, and from the begining was always going to have Blu-Ray. Including a Blu-ray caused a delay in getting it to market. You do have to give Sony its credit for that, they stuck with that embedded option at all costs, and I believe it was always marketed as being able to do both, from its debut at CES. The Blu-Ray was also there to allow Game Companies more room for graphics(and sloppy programing...) and other things. I don't want to start more Flames about how it has worked or Not worked on shared titles, as they would really get us off the subject. As for HD-DVD for Xbox360, that didn't happen until after Microsoft Paid to get into that part of the Business, not sure exactly HOW planned out that was, don't want to give Mr. Bill to much credit. Granted I would NOT be surprised to see a Blu-Ray add-on to the Xbox360 soon. So soon, you could have 1 unit that would have Blu-Ray, HD-DVD and online Video content from both groups(as Blu-Ray only companies are NOW putting content on the XboxLive site) on a single device. Sometime this year, when Sony finally puts a rumble feature back into their controllers(without it, its like playing a game with only TV speakers), as they have promised to do, I will have a PS3, and a couple of more titles I will want that I can't get on the xbox360.


----------



## Snoofie

GrumpyBear said:


> I wish I could have afforded a laserDisc when they came out. I would love to have one. I would put it with my TRS-80 and Commadore-64, yes they BOTH still work, and the kids play BattleChess on a green Screen and LOVE it, as a through back, laugh and say wow this was HIGH TECH?!?!? I even have my Zork disk's but now I am dating my Teen years.


I wanted laserdisc soooo bad! I used to go into Suncoast Video and just browse those discs and read the exclusive content they had on them and just drool. I came close several times to buying a player, but just coudn't get over the hump.


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> PS3 needed away to seperate itself from the crowd, and from the begining was always going to have Blu-Ray. Including a Blu-ray caused a delay in getting it to market. You do have to give Sony its credit for that, they stuck with that embedded option at all costs, and I believe it was always marketed as being able to do both, from its debut at CES. The Blu-Ray was also there to allow Game Companies more room for graphics(and sloppy programing...) and other things. I don't want to start more Flames about how it has worked or Not worked on shared titles, as they would really get us off the subject. As for HD-DVD for Xbox360, that didn't happen until after Microsoft Paid to get into that part of the Business, not sure exactly HOW planned out that was, don't want to give Mr. Bill to much credit. Granted I would NOT be surprised to see a Blu-Ray add-on to the Xbox360 soon. So soon, you could have 1 unit that would have Blu-Ray, HD-DVD and online Video content from both groups(as Blu-Ray only companies are NOW putting content on the XboxLive site) on a single device. Sometime this year, when Sony finally puts a rumble feature back into their controllers(without it, its like playing a game with only TV speakers), as they have promised to do, I will have a PS3, and a couple of more titles I will want that I can't get on the xbox360.


PS3 was marketed with a Blu-Ray drive, but only because Sony knew its Blu-Ray format depended on getting players in homes. Knowing people would by the PS3, they guaranteed a user base by forcing them to also take Blu-Ray.

Many game studios have gone on record saying they don't see coding a game in Blu-Ray. Its cheaper for them to give you two DVD's then one Blu-Ray disc. By the time the Blu-Ray option because cheap enough, we will be on the next round of systems. Most games don't even come close to the 8.7 GB they already get with DVD's and that includes PC games.

This was a smart move by Sony, but also a reason many don't care for them.


----------



## GrumpyBear

texaswolf said:


> yeah..thats a good point...Sony wouldn't be bleeding the money they are on every PS3 sold if they didn't add the BR...and many more people could afford to buy it. Packing it with a BR and only with a BR gave PS3 fans (a lot of which are kids) no choice but to "buy" a BR player....Gamers want the game console...kids want the game...some want both...none had choice.


They have to be bleeding, which is kind of funny, as it hasn't helped gain to much market share in the Gaming world even with Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray has potential still in the gaming world, but most Game Companies aren't using it, as it just isn't that benefical in the real world, paper YES, Real, not yet... Nor anytime soon.
The Ironic thing even with the 800lb Gorilla tactic, hey we play movies and games one device, you wont need anything else. It was touted early in life as both a Xbox and Nintendo Killer, it would force them off the market and we would have just one standard for the gaming companies to save them money. We see how that has worked.
PS3 is still behind the Xbox360, and they both trail, the Wii, that is nothing but FUN and NO HD at all. PS3 is a good BD Movie player but its still not the top selling one. Its one of those things it does everything, but.... devices. I don't want to get into shared game performance, as that is a thread WAY off topic.


----------



## phat78boy

Snoofie said:


> I wanted laserdisc soooo bad! I used to go into Suncoast Video and just browse those discs and read the exclusive content they had on them and just drool. I came close several times to buying a player, but just coudn't get over the hump.


I purchased the Starwars triology at the time in LD. I think it cost 350$. lol.


----------



## GrumpyBear

phat78boy said:


> PS3 was marketed with a Blu-Ray drive, but only because Sony knew its Blu-Ray format depended on getting players in homes. Knowing people would by the PS3, they guaranteed a user base by forcing them to also take Blu-Ray.
> 
> Many game studios have gone on record saying they don't see coding a game in Blu-Ray. Its cheaper for them to give you two DVD's then one Blu-Ray disc. By the time the Blu-Ray option because cheap enough, we will be on the next round of systems. Most games don't even come close to the 8.7 GB they already get with DVD's and that includes PC games.
> 
> This was a smart move by Sony, but also a reason many don't care for them.


I was just saying the PS3 was always planned to have Blu-Ray and was always Marketed as a both a Game console and DVD replacement. There is no forcing the Blu-Ray on anybody as it was planned all along. I believe, there Idea was, and this would help justify the cost, it would replace all game systems and be your DVD replacement in one device and Saving people money, gain tons of market share, for BD's. Its Debut at CES was popular, and the game they played, can't remember it off hand, was being played next door at the Xbox360 booth, and it LOOKED tons better on the 360. Shared titles play better on the 360 and look better as well, this has hurt them gaining to much game market, even replacing all those PS2's, and turning off people who keep the game room seperate, or have NO desire to have a game system in Living room. As a combo device it hasn't been able to beat, its competion, on any front. Sometimes you need to keep things simple to make them excel.


----------



## bobukcat

GrumpyBear said:


> The Blu-Ray was also there to allow Game Companies more room for graphics(and sloppy programing...) and other things. I don't want to start more Flames about how it has worked or Not worked on shared titles, as they would really get us off the subject.
> ....
> 
> Sometime this year, when Sony finally puts a rumble feature back into their controllers(without it, its like playing a game with only TV speakers), as they have promised to do, I will have a PS3, and a couple of more titles I will want that I can't get on the xbox360.


I was going to bring up the capacity on BD as being the only viable reason to include it for gaming, but I don't know if a good comparison of a long game full of great HD cut scenes and the like exists between the two. I know that the XBOX 360 gets plenty of kudos for games and the PS3 crowd is still well behind, but that's OT as you stated.

How is the world did they not add vibration on the PS3 controller when it took so long to get the thing to market anyway?!?! I'll admit I didn't know it was lacking until I started playing a game but thankfully it was always destined to be a BD player first for me.


----------



## bobukcat

Carl Spock said:


> I love how Sony will continue to spend money on something to prove that, _damn it_, they are right!
> 
> Anybody else remember the Beta Stacker?
> 
> Thoroughly pissed at consistently being beat by VHS in recording time, Sony came up with a tape changer for your Betamax that loaded new tapes into the front of the unit. Or at least it was supposed to. The Beta Stacker was way too mechanically complicated and rarely worked just like you expected it to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> That is frickin CLASSIC - I had completely forgotten about that gem! !rolling


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> I was just saying the PS3 was always planned to have Blu-Ray and was always Marketed as a both a Game console and DVD replacement. There is no forcing the Blu-Ray on anybody as it was planned all along. I believe, there Idea was, and this would help justify the cost, it would replace all game systems and be your DVD replacement in one device and Saving people money, gain tons of market share, for BD's. Its Debut at CES was popular, and the game they played, can't remember it off hand, was being played next door at the Xbox360 booth, and it LOOKED tons better on the 360. Shared titles play better on the 360 and look better as well, this has hurt them gaining to much game market, even replacing all those PS2's, and turning off people who keep the game room seperate, or have NO desire to have a game system in Living room. As a combo device it hasn't been able to beat, its competion, on any front. Sometimes you need to keep things simple to make them excel.


Yea, I agree people new what they were getting into. I just like my choices I guess. Everyone has been saying that CES debut was ran off the programming computer kit which is 4 times the machine the PS3 is. All in one devices are almost always overhyped and underwhelming IMHO.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Carl Spock said:


> - the CD
> - the Walkman
> - Trinitron TVs
> - 3/4" U-Matic pro machines
> - Beta pro video decks
> - the frickin' transistor radio!
> 
> Sony has also had some huge individual sellers over the years. The PS2 comes to mind.
> 
> But it's been a while for them. Sony should have invented the iPod. It's right up their alley. Having Blu-ray be a huge success would be a godsend for Sony.


Sony has made lots of great equipment over the years, NO doubt about it. When it comes to Devices that have CONTENT on them.... Long live the Memory stick, no one will EVER need or should EVER record more than 60min's worth of TV. Technology wise, Sony is great for the Industry, and I hope in Hard Drives Blu-Ray is really successful. As for BD's not so sure, "IF" they stepped down their tone on HOW they will protect us from ourselves, in the DRM arena, I would be a FANBOY.:lol:


----------



## machavez00

Snoofie said:


> I wanted laserdisc soooo bad! I used to go into Suncoast Video and just browse those discs and read the exclusive content they had on them and just drool. I came close several times to buying a player, but just coudn't get over the hump.





phat78boy said:


> I purchased the Starwars triology at the time in LD. I think it cost 350$. lol.


That's it, I'm dragging my Pioneer Laserdisc player from storage and hooking it up. I have like 20 movies on LD including "Raiders" and "Last Crusade"


----------



## phat78boy

machavez00 said:


> That's it, I'm dragging my Pioneer Laserdisc player from storage and hooking it up. I have like 20 movies on LD including "Raiders" and "Last Crusade"


Yes, loved the the Indian Jones movies in LD. Man, those discs were expensive. It was like 90$ for a movie and that was 20 years ago.


----------



## RAD

IIRC I paid like $150 for the Star Wars Return of the Jedi import from Japan since it was in CAV format vs. the US which had only a CLV version.

But then again I also remember paying $90 for my first VHS movie, M.A.S.H from Magnetic Video.


----------



## elaclair

Snoofie said:


> I wanted laserdisc soooo bad! I used to go into Suncoast Video and just browse those discs and read the exclusive content they had on them and just drool. I came close several times to buying a player, but just coudn't get over the hump.


I dove head-first into Laser, loved it, and still do to some extent. At one time I had over 700 titles, I've replaced a lot of them, but it's amazing some of the movies/music/documentary titles that are still only available in that format. I have the original Dark Crystal un-edited version that runs 178 minutes.....would be that it were available on DVD..... and some of Pioneer's music collections on Laser have yet to become available on any other format.

And besides, the discs are really big and shiny.......


----------



## dhhaines

phat78boy said:


> Yes, loved the the Indian Jones movies in LD. Man, those discs were expensive. It was like 90$ for a movie and that was 20 years ago.


 Yea.. but I seem to remember paying something like $80 for a VHS tape back in the 80's:nono2:


----------



## Carl Spock

I still have my letterboxed Star Wars LaserDiscs, too, as well as the Criterion versions of King Kong and Citizen Kane.

OK, so I fell for Pioneer's sweet talking as easily as Sony's. Shoot me.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Maybe a new thread starting, HighDef vs rebirth of Laserdisc for HD?


----------



## Richard King

I still have a few laser discs and a broken Toshiba Cinema series player. I wish I could get it fixed, but three people have tried with no success. I am now waiting for the HD Laser disc to come out. It will go right along with my new subwoofer that I discussed above since the discs are 30" in diameter. So, I am going to have my foundation mounted subwoofer and my 150" screen fed by my 30" diameter HD laser disc system. I can't wait. :lol:


----------



## bobukcat

Carl Spock said:


> OK, so I fell for Pioneer's sweet talking as easily as Sony's. Shoot me.


I find it interesting that everyone concentrates on Sony's part in BD and never mentions that Pioneer and Apple are both a part of it too - personally I hold out hope they will be positive influences for the consumers.

If Pioneer's BD player is as superior as their Plasma displays I would pay extra when I'm ready for another one. (But don't tell them that.)


----------



## phat78boy

bobukcat said:


> I find it interesting that everyone concentrates on Sony's part in BD and never mentions that Pioneer and Apple are both a part of it too - personally I hold out hope they will be positive influences for the consumers.
> 
> If Pioneer's BD player is as superior as their Plasma displays I would pay extra when I'm ready for another one. (But don't tell them that.)


The reason being is Sony is the main developer for Blu-Ray and is also the one who is adding in all the lock downs. The other companies might have put in some input regarding audio streams and such, but really didn't make a big deal about security parameters.

When I purchase a Blu-Ray player it will more then likely be Pioneers.


----------



## apexmi

phat78boy said:


> The reason being is Sony is the main developer for Blu-Ray and is also the one who is adding in all the lock downs. The other companies might have put in some input regarding audio streams and such, but really didn't make a big deal about security parameters.
> 
> When I purchase a Blu-Ray player it will more then likely be Pioneers.


The PS3 will be my only Blu player until prices go sub $150.00 for a finalized profile 2.0 player.


----------



## phat78boy

apexmi said:


> The PS3 will be my only Blu player until prices go sub $150.00 for a finalized profile 2.0 player.


I'm too much of a toy guy. I waited this long, but once 2.0 players get released I'll be all over it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Talked to a gentleman from Disney and we talked at length about several parts of this war that have been discussed here. Most are confirmations of everything we've said on both sides.

The one very interesting point was the Blu-Ray exclusive in global markets discussion. Yes, Disney has a few titles that are HD-DVD, and they appear principally in other parts of the world. One big reason for this how the movie was originally financed. Many movies these days are financed by multiple studios or by one studio and distributed by another studio. That can cause situations where it appears a Disney movie is in HD-DVD, where in reality it was a Universal/Disney movie so it is released in one format in the US and both formats outside the US.

Or if Disney has the US (or North America) distribution rights (and name presence) but Universal has the outside the US rights so it can go HD-DVD that way.

It was a very interesting conversation in a very busy Blu-ray booth.

The HD-DVD booth had only the HD staff, only one or two attendees each time I walked by. Spoke to a very nice person there too, high hopes and all, and she indicated she felt the war won't last much longer. Yet with HD-DVD winning.

Sitting on the sidelines,
Tom


----------



## GrumpyBear

bobukcat said:


> I find it interesting that everyone concentrates on Sony's part in BD and never mentions that Pioneer and Apple are both a part of it too - personally I hold out hope they will be positive influences for the consumers.
> 
> If Pioneer's BD player is as superior as their Plasma displays I would pay extra when I'm ready for another one. (But don't tell them that.)


I think the reason everybody focus's on Sony is because of the DRM restrictions and focus of Sony. I would love it If APPLE took over more, they already tried to get Sony to relax and unwind, but was shot down, by Sony. I don't have any Apple Products, but they aren't as NEARLY anti-consumer. Maybe Steve can call Mr. Bill for another investment loan, and they could buy control from Sony.

If you took SONY out of the Control loop and just left them as the hardware spec driver, and Manufactuer, you would see a HUGE influx of people over to BD's. Blu-Ray is great techology, most on the Fence are on the Fence to do Sony's past and current practices.


----------



## bobukcat

GrumpyBear said:


> I think the reason everybody focus's on Sony is because of the DRM restrictions and focus of Sony. I would love it If APPLE took over more, they already tried to get Sony to relax and unwind, but was shot down, by Sony. I don't have any Apple Products, but they aren't as NEARLY anti-consumer. Maybe Steve can call Mr. Bill for another investment loan, and they could buy control from Sony.
> 
> If you took SONY out of the Control loop and just left them as the hardware spec driver, and Manufactuer, you would see a HUGE influx of people over to BD's. Blu-Ray is great techology, most on the Fence are on the Fence to do Sony's past and current practices.


I could see that, especially with Steve J coming out in favor of completely unrestricted audio files (AAC, MP3, etc.) for sale on line as the way to get more consumers to buy instead of steal. That is pretty much the anti-Sony view of the copyrighted digital media world.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Oh, scuttlebutt is that Apple (as mentioned, a blu-ray supporter) will announce blu-ray in all new Macs. Likely to be mentioned at Macworld.

Rumors is as rumors does...


----------



## HIPAR

I'm seeing all these references to Sony's draconian DRM. What are they doing over and above what is inherently there in HD-DVD? The box my HD-A3 came in clearly states Region 1 but every one says HD-DVD is region free. Does that only apply when playing regular DVDs? Anyway, I assume the Sony DRM is more than about regional playback.

--- CHAS


----------



## Cholly

HIPAR said:


> I'm seeing all these references to Sony's draconian DRM. What are they doing over and above what is inherently there in HD-DVD? The box my HD-A3 came in clearly states Region 1 but every one says HD-DVD is region free. Does that only apply when playing regular DVDs? Anyway, I assume the Sony DRM is more than about regional playback.
> 
> --- CHAS


Unlike Blu-ray Disc players, HD DVD players don't include DRM enforcement,. The third generation Toshiba HD DVD players (at least the HD-A3) are not region independent, while the earlier models were.


----------



## phat78boy

HIPAR said:


> I'm seeing all these references to Sony's draconian DRM. What are they doing over and above what is inherently there in HD-DVD? The box my HD-A3 came in clearly states Region 1 but every one says HD-DVD is region free. Does that only apply when playing regular DVDs? Anyway, I assume the Sony DRM is more than about regional playback.
> 
> --- CHAS


I also believe that is strictly for regular DVD playback. HD-DVD movies have thus far not been region coded at all.


----------



## HIPAR

This is my understanding:

a) HDMI comes with a copy protection scheme called HDCP .. both players can turn it on

b) Component outputs can be turned off or reduced in resolution to prevent copies from some sort of analog device .. both players can do this

c) Blu ray is regionally protected .. HD DVD is not

d) Nether format is currently using features a) and b)

What other DRM measures are in place for either format? 

--- CHAS


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HIPAR said:


> This is my understanding:
> 
> a) HDMI comes with a copy protection scheme called HDCP .. both players can turn it on
> 
> b) Component outputs can be turned off or reduced in resolution to prevent copies from some sort of analog device .. both players can do this
> 
> c) Blu ray is regionally protected .. HD DVD is not
> 
> d) Nether format is currently using features a) and b)
> 
> What other DRM measures are in place for either format?
> 
> --- CHAS


Your understanding is pretty much correct. 

But as another poster indicated....there *are* DRM (region-based only) differences between the 2nd and 3rd generation HD DVD players - I have one of each.


----------



## GrumpyBear

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Your understanding is pretty much correct.
> 
> But as another poster indicated....there *are* DRM (region-based only) differences between the 2nd and 3rd generation HD DVD players - I have one of each.


No there have been enough in-fighting, and agreements to push things off, for now.
Its just the focus, and past history, that worries me. I prefer the BD technology, its just how things have been tired to be put into the current techology, and for our safety. Granted I think it was Intel years ago, that invented or came up with the technology.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Cholly said:


> Unlike Blu-ray Disc players, HD DVD players don't include DRM enforcement,. The third generation Toshiba HD DVD players (at least the HD-A3) are not region independent, while the earlier models were.


I do believe that The HD-A3 does come prepared to turn of HD quality, over non-hdmi interface. It was part of the agreement not to enforce it now.


----------



## Carl Spock

I didn't know this, about how DRM could potentially be enforced on 3rd generation players. Makes my $98 HD-A2 seem all the more special.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Carl Spock said:


> I didn't know this, about how DRM could potentially be enforced on 3rd generation players. Makes my $98 HD-A2 seem all the more special.


Its also one of the reasons, HD-A3 users are finding out, that not all DVD's are upscaleable, spec is built in. I do blame both sides for that issue though, NO matter how I would love to blame you know who, but it does take to to dance.


----------



## HIPAR

It might be a factor if you buy HD-DVD disks overseas.

I just looked closely at the HD-A3 box. There's a note on it that says:

'This DVD video player was manufactured for playback of region 1'. 'Region 1' is in bigger print and there's an icon of a globe with a big 1 in it. I'm not sure how to interpret this.

--- CHAS


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Carl Spock said:


> I didn't know this, about how DRM could potentially be enforced on 3rd generation players. Makes my $98 HD-A2 seem all the more special.


As far as I know, I believe this is true about 1st and 2nd gen players as well. I believe the hardware ability to restrict component output has been there from the beginning, just a "gentleman's agreement" not to enable it yet.

I do not believe this is unique to just the 3rd gen players.


----------



## HIPAR

GrumpyBear said:


> Its also one of the reasons, HD-A3 users are finding out, that not all DVD's are upscaleable, spec is built in. I do blame both sides for that issue though, NO matter how I would love to blame you know who, but it does take to to dance.


I saw a comment elsewhere about someone try to play a standard DVD who got a message that it could not play upconverted because of licensing restrictions. It is that situation that you are referencing?

--- CHAS


----------



## space86

I remember back in October of 2007 that my Dish VIP622 refused to let me
watch TNT HD and Monsters HD because I did not have an HDMI Connection
my HDTV just has Component Connection. 

This happened for at least a week, and then I was able to watch those Channels
with no problem ever since.


----------



## smiddy

space86 said:


> I remember back in October of 2007 that my Dish VIP622 refused to let me
> watch TNT HD and Monsters HD because I did not have an HDMI Connection
> my HDTV just has Component Connection.
> 
> This happened for at least a week, and then I was able to watch those Channels
> with no problem ever since.


That has happened to me on DirecTV too. It is High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) that causes that and it is only supposed to be setup for movies and such, not general programming. :shrug:


----------



## GrumpyBear

HDMe said:


> As far as I know, I believe this is true about 1st and 2nd gen players as well. I believe the hardware ability to restrict component output has been there from the beginning, just a "gentleman's agreement" not to enable it yet.
> 
> I do not believe this is unique to just the 3rd gen players.


I agree, its always been available,not sure how they could turn it on in 1st and 2nd, generation, unless you upgrade firmware(never know though) but 3rd generaton its there, and ready. Like it or not With luck though, we wont have to worry about for sometime to come. Not all the companies want it in place, and it would outdate lots of TV's, as well.


----------



## HIPAR

There's probably codes on the disk that turn it on.

--- CHAS


----------



## GrumpyBear

HIPAR said:


> I saw a comment elsewhere about someone try to play a standard DVD who got a message that it could not play upconverted because of licensing restrictions. It is that situation that you are referencing?
> 
> --- CHAS


I think it was on Engadget, that I was reading about, how newer releases of DVD's wont upscale, with some companies if they the Movie Studio has it released in HD, either HD-DvD or Blu-Ray. Older version of the DVD, wont have the issue.


----------



## GrumpyBear

HIPAR said:


> There's probably codes on the disk that turn it on.
> 
> --- CHAS


I think it could and would be included on DVD's issued after a certain date, lets hope it isn't on them already. Wow what an idea hidden information on DVD's that might, outdate your equipment or Setup, that you never knew was there, granted no Company would do anything like that.


----------



## HIPAR

GrumpyBear, here's a thought. My HD-A3 has an internal clock. I can't find anything that it does. Maybe DRM is set to activate at a certain time to be determined by the clock. But, I never set the clock and everything still works.

--- CHAS


----------



## GrumpyBear

HIPAR said:


> GrumpyBear, here's a thought. My HD-A3 has an internal clock. I can't find anything that it does. Maybe DRM is set to activate at a certain time to be determined by the clock. But, I never set the clock and everything still works.
> 
> --- CHAS


There was no Date given, so it would have to be a firmware, or like your idea, it will be built into the DVD itself. Heck of a surprise, but Older DVD's or at least your current movies that you have that havene't been released on DVD will be safe, its new joint releases, that you "may" have an issue with.


----------



## apexmi

GrumpyBear said:


> I agree, its always been available,not sure how they could turn it on in 1st and 2nd, generation, unless you upgrade firmware(never know though) but 3rd generaton its there, and ready. Like it or not With luck though, we wont have to worry about for sometime to come. Not all the companies want it in place, and it would outdate lots of TV's, as well.


My understanding from the start is it is in the software on the disc and has not yet been implemented by any of the studios.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

It is supposed to be a "flag" or something similar that will be on future HD DVD (or Blu ray) that the players are already designed to recognize. IF the player sees the flag, then nothing beyond 540p (slightly higher res than 480p) from component outputs.

The HD/Blu ray players already recognize an equivalent of this "flag" on standard DVDs just like upconverting players, and will not do upconverts over component. (Yes I know there are some ways around this, but for the purposes of this forum how to do that is irrelevant and inappropriate).


----------



## bobukcat

Do any of you that have HD-DVD players have the ability to display the video codec and bitrates for video and audio, if so would you mind telling me what you see on "average" and the higher numbers you've seen?? I've looked at specs and I know there is no discernable difference in PQ between the two format so I'm curious how your numbers compare to those off my BD player. This isn't a "mine is better than yours" argument or anything like that, I'm just curious about the numbers.

I don't have a 1080P display yet but at 1080i I probably "average" 24-26 Mbps with the highest peak I've seen at 36 Mbps - both of which obviously blow SD DVDs out of the water.


----------



## Cholly

HIPAR said:


> I saw a comment elsewhere about someone try to play a standard DVD who got a message that it could not play upconverted because of licensing restrictions. It is that situation that you are referencing?
> 
> --- CHAS


I tried two widescreen movies in my HD-A3 (Simpsons and Mr. & Mrs. Smith). When I hit the info button on my TV, it reported 1080i, so upconversion was not a problem with these two Fox movies.


----------



## HIPAR

Cholly said:


> I tried two widescreen movies in my HD-A3 (Simpsons and Mr. & Mrs. Smith). When I hit the info button on my TV, it reported 1080i, so upconversion was not a problem with these two Fox movies.


I haven't had the problem here yet either. I just bought a used copy of Casino Royale wide screen SD DVD and it plays OK on my HD-A3.

--- CHAS


----------



## smiddy

Hey Carl Spock, it's pronounced Bru-Lay. :lol: I thought of that last night and forgot to post it here, for your enjoyment of course.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Guys, I completely guarantee that ALL generations of HD players, HD-DVD or Blu-ray, support HDCP protections should any protected content be flagged. The studios would never have backed anything else. Bank on it. HDCP is not so new that it just was added. It's there.

It typically applies on the analogue ports, but also will apply on any digital port that does not handshake HDCP correctly. 

And it applies to all (compliant) upconvert players, which includes the HD players that don't have to upconvert HD source.

Lastly, I've noticed that most SD movies are so protected these days.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobukcat

This is interesting but would need support from other studios for it to really take off - it would allow the user to have a full-resolution BD Disk for home use and a lower res (still more than sufficient for the screen size, I'm sure) version for use on the PSP (and maybe other players???) for the same price as the BD disk.

IMO, this could really help the format if it gains support and works on IPods, Zune and other devices!!

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=31925


----------



## CoriBright

Maybe the new player from Samsung will solve all the problems (and all the endless arguments)
http://www.highdefdigest.com/tags/show/Dual-Format_Players

and at $599, it's affordable. I was browsing Newegg yesterday and LG have an optical drive for PCs that plays both formats. It's only $299. Why can't LG make a standalone player for that price!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

CoriBright said:


> I was browsing Newegg yesterday and LG have an optical drive for PCs that plays both formats. It's only $299. Why can't LG make a standalone player for that price!


Because a player contains a lot more stuff (kind of like your computer) than does just the drive itself. Consider that your home computer probably cost at least $400 and even if you take away some of the stuff that a standalone player would require for functionality... you still need more to make that optical drive be a standalone unit that just needs a TV.


----------



## Rich

HDMe said:


> Because a player contains a lot more stuff (kind of like your computer) than does just the drive itself. Consider that your home computer probably cost at least $400 and even if you take away some of the stuff that a standalone player would require for functionality... you still need more to make that optical drive be a standalone unit that just needs a TV.


Well said!

Rich


----------



## CoriBright

A standalone player does not require:

A high end graphics card
A monitor
A hard drive

They are the most expensive components of a PC.

I guess it does require some kind of CPU, and system board but they can be purchased for a lot less than the $400 you quote. If there was a dual format standalone for $499, I'll bet a lot of folks would rush out and buy one. 

Sure, not everyone wants one, but not everyone has HDTVs. If you don't have an HDTV, why purchase a HD DVD/Blu Ray player? Those people are probably quite satisfied with their $39 standard DVD standalone player. 

But if Toshiba can make their A3 for $199 and then giveaway 10 HD DVDs with them, it cannot be that expensive to make HD DVD standalone players.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

CoriBright said:


> A standalone player does not require:
> 
> A high end graphics card
> A monitor
> A hard drive
> 
> They are the most expensive components of a PC.


It does require a graphics card (equivalent) that can do 1920x1080 (1080i or 1080p) and has digital as well as analog video outputs. Also required would be a sound card (equivalent).



CoriBright said:


> I guess it does require some kind of CPU, and system board but they can be purchased for a lot less than the $400 you quote. If there was a dual format standalone for $499, I'll bet a lot of folks would rush out and buy one.


All those other components (ethernet, CPU, hard drives are in there for persistent storage as well) cost something... and there is also a custom case design for a standalone player (they can't just stick it in a generic PC case).

Also... your other email was a link to a new Samsung $599 dual player... so I'm not sure how much cheaper a $499 one is by comparison. Yeah, $100 different.. but that isn't much at that price point.



CoriBright said:


> Sure, not everyone wants one, but not everyone has HDTVs. If you don't have an HDTV, why purchase a HD DVD/Blu Ray player? Those people are probably quite satisfied with their $39 standard DVD standalone player.
> 
> But if Toshiba can make their A3 for $199 and then giveaway 10 HD DVDs with them, it cannot be that expensive to make HD DVD standalone players.


There is also the logic that says people must have an HDTV to use one of these, so they have more disposable income available and can afford a higher priced player. Hard to argue that someone can afford a $2000 TV but can't afford a $500 player. Granted, I like saving money too... but it's hard to argue against that logic.

Debates continue as to who is footing the bill for those DVD giveaways. Could be the hardware manufacturer, could be movie studios, could be the forum behind the technology, could be retail stores, could be all of the above.

Also true is that people tend to have an aversion to "cheapness". People are more likely, for instance, to buy a $199 HD DVD player that comes with 10 "free" movies... than they would be to take a "free" player that required them to buy $199 in movies. Same end result, but one is more consumer friendly to market.


----------



## CoriBright

The graphics card and monitor for a standalone player is usually the TV.

Although Samsung have provisionly priced the new dual format at $599, there is plenty of speculation at that link I provided that it will never be produced. It's not due out until about October (for the US) and if HD DVD is dead by then, they probably won't even release it.

Neither of our HDTVs have HDMI ports so it's not like we can use our A3 as an upconverter, it's just a doorstop if HD DVD ceases production. We already have an unconverting DVD (even if we can't use it to upconvert due to the no HDMI situation) plus that standalone plays DIVX data DVDs, is region free and converts PAL to NTSC. There are no HD standalone players that are quite that convenient.

We'll just have to wait to see what happens. We certainly don't want to spend another $599 just after getting the A3. Like many folks, we're not a bottomless pit of $s. 

I might first get something like the LG for the PC. There aren't many BR DVDs that I'd like to see right now, but that may change after May (the date Warner is supposed to change over). Right now the only ones I'd go out and get are the POTC trilogy and the Day After Tomorrow. If getting a BR player would get me all four of them for nothing, I might do it.

See, I can be tempted, the offer just has to be good enough. It's rather like a flight being overbooked, wait and the offers from the airline get higher. When the price is right.... JUMP!


----------



## Tom Robertson

The "graphics adapter" and "sound card", per se, are in the player. The players take the bitstream off the media and run them thru the video and audio circuitry to generate an appropriate signal for the display and speakers (TV with sound system) to then display. 

The video and audio shaping circuits have to adjust for film mode (on old DVDs), resolution conversions, etc. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Marriner

Proof that the format war is over is here


----------



## smiddy

Marriner said:


> Proof that the format war is over is here


I didn't get it, th elink is to an internet store for a HD DVD player. I see no proof of anything other than they are selling the player.


----------



## Sirshagg

smiddy said:


> I didn't get it, th elink is to an internet store for a HD DVD player. I see no proof of anything other than they are selling the player.


I don't either. Only thing i can think is that $150 is really low for an A3.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Sirshagg said:


> I don't either. Only thing i can think is that $150 is really low for an A3.


actually the price is 130. I don't think it's low enough to be a fire sale, but it's definately smoke!


----------



## Marriner

smiddy said:


> I didn't get it, th elink is to an internet store for a HD DVD player. I see no proof of anything other than they are selling the player.


An hd dvd player and 7 hd dvds for under $130 and that is not a sign? won't be long before these players are selling on woot for $69. HD DVD is in its death spiral.


----------



## smiddy

Marriner said:


> An hd dvd player and 7 hd dvds for under $130 and that is not a sign? won't be long before these players are selling on woot for $69. HD DVD is in its death spiral.


Oh, I see. But isn't the Blu Ray player from Best Buy given 5 from teh shelf and 5 from mail in too. I don't see them as too disimilar. Maybe I don't see it the same way...

I think we'll get a definitive signs in the coming months though. I predict by May if HD DVD has not stopped being produced then it may be around a lot longer than most are predicting. Mind you, I don't care either way, I was intent on supporting both since I was going to put it on a HTPC and pipe it to 8 zones in my home, though I can not find a dual drive any longer unless I buy a preconfigures/built PC from HP. I don't intend to build until May so it will make my choice very easy then if HD DVD decides to fade away.


----------



## Cholly

Marriner said:


> An hd dvd player and 7 hd dvds for under $130 and that is not a sign? won't be long before these players are selling on woot for $69. HD DVD is in its death spiral.


Is this wishful thinking on your part? Both camps have had promos offering anywhere from 5 to 10 free DVD's for quite some time.Granted, Tiger's price of $129 for the A3 is very low, indeed - but that doesn't indicate that the end has come for HD DVD. Universal, Paramount/Dreamworks and Microsoft have all announced continued support for HD DVD, as have a number of independent studios.
As Mark Twain said, "The reports of my death are premature".


----------



## Steve Mehs

I saw on Blu-ray.com that Amazon is having a BD sale.  Lots of big titles for $15-$20.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&plgroup=1&docId=1000186951&plpage=1&tag=bluraynews-20


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve Mehs said:


> I saw on Blu-ray.com that Amazon is having a BD sale. Lots of big titles for $15-$20.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&plgroup=1&docId=1000186951&plpage=1&tag=bluraynews-20


Many Blu Ray players are also on sale and will be over the next 6 weeks, until the next generation Blu Ray v1.1 format units are on the market.

Of course, the new format units coming in late March / early April will support v1.1 Blue Ray standards, whereas all the units to date support only v1.0. That means if someone wants to enjoy the new Blu Ray disk standards found on new disks going forward, their current player will be obsolete for that purpose. Many of these features cannot be updated via firmware.

This is the price Blu Ray owners/supporters pay for Sony failing to establish proper standards until now like the HD DVD folks did.

Makes one wonder why the studios are leaning the Blu Ray direction, since there will clearly be a public outcry once the mainstream market catches wind of that.

All those people who spent $700, $800, and even more on expensive Blu Ray players will now own a device that doesn't play the new stuff, while the cheaper new players going for $500 and less will. Ya gotta love how Sony is "consumer friendly".


----------



## machavez00

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Many Blu Ray players are also on sale and will be over the next 6 weeks, until the next generation Blu Ray v1.1 format units are on the market.
> 
> Of course, the new format units coming in late March / early April will support v1.1 Blue Ray standards, whereas all the units to date support only v1.0. That means if someone wants to enjoy the new Blu Ray disk standards found on new disks going forward, their current player will be obsolete for that purpose. Many of these features cannot be updated via firmware.
> 
> This is the price Blu Ray owners/supporters pay for Sony failing to establish proper standards until now like the HD DVD folks did.
> 
> Makes one wonder why the studios are leaning the Blu Ray direction, since there will clearly be a public outcry once the mainstream market catches wind of that.
> 
> All those people who spent $700, $800, and even more on expensive Blu Ray players will now own a device that doesn't play the new stuff, while the cheaper new players going for $500 and less will. Ya gotta love how Sony is "consumer friendly".


this why it is too early to call the war over. Once consumer realize they are going to have shell out more money for a new player there will be a backlash


----------



## Steve Mehs

While I didn't intend for my post to be quoted for your borderline psychotic hating of BD due to the fact you can't accept the almost certain demise of your beloved HD DVD format thanks for the completely biased commentary.

BTW - It's Blu Ray Disc not Blu Ray Disk.



> All those people who spent $700, $800, and even more on expensive Blu Ray players will now own a device that doesn't play the new stuff, while the cheaper new players going for $500 and less will.


It's that how technology works? My $3K IBM PC from 1995 can't do much of anything that a new WalMart Special $400 PC can. While I know Sony steals your soul and sells it to the devil, or at least in your mind you believe that, this is a fairly common practice in the electronics industry.


----------



## Carl Spock

Steve Mehs said:


> BTW - It's Blu Ray Disc not Blu Ray Disk.


Actually, it's Blu-ray Disc.

link


----------



## GrumpyBear

machavez00 said:


> this why it is too early to call the war over. Once consumer realize they are going to have shell out more money for a new player there will be a backlash


Yeah, Blacklash is right around the corner. The Blu-Ray group just hasn't been honest with people. Grace Period Profile - Profile 1.0, early and some machines now, Final Standard Profile - Profile 1.1 newer machines, and RIGHT around the Corner is, BD-Live (Profile 2), and guess what, Profile 1.0, 1.1 machines will NOT be able to be upgraded to Profile2, as they wont have the Manadory Ethernet connection. So all the BD-J talk, and how all the cool upgrades, are done through Java, but whoops, your machine will be outdated, by a already established NEW standard for the BD's. 
Nice Job Sony and the other BD members. This kind of Effort will help keep the numbers down, and help keep BD's out of the Mass's. Can see the advertisment's now, Hey BD's are just getting better, so spend $400, every other year, to get the True HD via BD's.


----------



## Nick

Looks like Sony has managed to not only kill off the HD DVD, but the Blu-Ray Disc as well.


----------



## machavez00

Nick said:


> Looks like Sony has managed to not only kill off the HD DVD, but the Blu-Ray Disc as well.


Thats what the whole XstreamHD/Segate articles were all about. Physical delivery of HD content is DOA if takes off (Seagate/ExtstreamHD)


----------



## Steve Mehs

Carl Spock said:


> Actually, it's Blu-ray Disc.
> 
> link


You're correct Blu-ray Disc, my bad. Upper case B on Blu, hyphen, lowercase R in ray, space upper case D-i-s-c. I usually just call it BD. Either way it's the future, so like it or not we (and by we I'm including myself) should all learn how to properly spell the format that will be brining us prerecorded video entertainment for years to come.


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Makes one wonder why the studios are leaning the Blu Ray direction, since there will clearly be a public outcry once the mainstream market catches wind of that.


No wonder, they are going off the media sales dominance of BD over the last year. I think that those that convert from supporting both formats to just one (in both directions) are probably also trying to control costs instead of dumping too much into a (or two) format(s) that may never take off at all.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Steve Mehs said:


> My $3K IBM PC from 1995 can't do much of anything that a new WalMart Special $400 PC can.


You realize that isn't a valid comparison, right?

Comparing a 12 year old computer to one on sale right now? There is a statute of limitations on these sorts of things after all... but consumers who just bought a brand new player this year or last year that is not up to the latest already approved standards is a completely different situation than trying to trade up a 12 year old model.

Not to say I don't understand part of your position... but this comparison doesn't really hold water.

Of course you also could have been making a funny and being sarcastic, which would then be ok


----------



## Pinion413

(My first post in this thread, as I own neither format and don't want to just yet..... )

Just to add to the whole "where there's smoke" thing.... I just came across this article.

As much as I'm sure the war's not quite over yet, it certainly is an interesting move by Toshiba. If I had known they were going to do this, I wouldn't have bought my second Oppo upconverting player and held out for one of these instead. :nono2:

Oh well.


----------



## Carl Spock

FWIW, Pinion413, my Oppo DV-981 HD is a better up-converting player than my Toshiba HD-A2. Not by much but it is better.

As an old retailer, one of the sure signs of desperation is slashing prices across the board. Nothing brings the customer in like _XX% Off Everything _sales but I refused to do them. It's creatively bankrupt plus, where do you go from there? There is no later upside.

Oh well. I've said on this board elsewhere I was already planning on buying a Blu-ray player this year before the news of the past few weeks. That schedule has just been advanced. C'est la vie!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well my fresh perspective for the day... DVR+R vs. DVD-R was a format war too. In a lot of ways it just ended with synergy, one drive that does both. But there was a casualty. People should have traded their VCRs in for DVD recorders but that technology never really took flight, did it? Partially because of the format war, people looked elsewhere, to DVRs.

I wonder if the format war will end with no winner save for downloaded content. I'm sure someone in this 47-page thread has already said that, I'm just saying again.


----------



## Chris Blount

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well my fresh perspective for the day... DVR+R vs. DVD-R was a format war too. In a lot of ways it just ended with synergy, one drive that does both. But there was a casualty. People should have traded their VCRs in for DVD recorders but that technology never really took flight, did it? Partially because of the format war, people looked elsewhere, to DVRs.
> 
> I wonder if the format war will end with no winner save for downloaded content. I'm sure someone in this 47-page thread has already said that, I'm just saying again.


I agree. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's days are numbered. I said this back in 06 and I still believe it:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=611575&postcount=11

It's only a matter of time before hard media will be a thing of the past.


----------



## smiddy

Chris Blount said:


> I agree. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's days are numbered. I said this back in 06 and I still believe it:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=611575&postcount=11
> 
> It's only a matter of time before hard media will be a thing of the past.


So long as folks can save the data somewhere for safe keeping I agree, but a BD is going to be a nice thing to archive things on and is somewhat affordable/reliable than tape, unless disks become less expensive and won't die will in storage.

We'll see, the sellers of TB drives will have to drop prices a lot further to make them viable for archival purposes. Then it will be the space of the HDD that will become a lim-fac, against BD or DVD or CD for that matter. I keep mine for archival purposes now, so perhaps there is going to be a market for archiving...I hope.


----------



## Pinion413

Carl Spock said:


> FWIW, Pinion413, my Oppo DV-981 HD is a better up-converting player than my Toshiba HD-A2. Not by much but it is better.


I did have that model for about 2 weeks late last year. I bought for the new TV and our 970HD was moved into the bedroom with our 32" Sammy. Unfortunately for some reason I was one of those unfortunate souls that had the macro-blocking issue with the 981HD. Going from the 970HD which worked wonderfully, it made our DVD's almost unwatchable during darker scenes. I had to return it, and got the 980H, which has worked as well as the 970HD, thankfully.

My only issue was, for about the price I paid 4 months ago for just an (excellent nonetheless) upconverting player, I could now have their 1080p HD-DVD deck and at least be able to play the (what appears to be) dying format as well as upscale. 

I'll more than likely pick up a PS3 at some point in the next year or two, and I'll just grab the HD-DVD addon for the 360 once it's sub-$100.


----------



## Pinion413

smiddy said:


> So long as folks can save the data somewhere for safe keeping I agree, but a BD is going to be a nice thing to archive things on and is somewhat affordable/reliable than tape, unless disks become less expensive and won't die will in storage.


I tend to think that the BD-ROM as an archival storage solution could quite possibly replace DVD down the road, provided the drives and blank media get as cheap as DVD is now. 25GB per layer versus 4.7 would help a lot.



smiddy said:


> We'll see, the sellers of TB drives will have to drop prices a lot further to make them viable for archival purposes. Then it will be the space of the HDD that will become a lim-fac, against BD or DVD or CD for that matter. I keep mine for archival purposes now, so perhaps there is going to be a market for archiving...I hope.


The real key thing for archiving downloaded media is going to ultimately be the industry getting very high capacity solid state drives available and make them affordable. Hard disks eventually fail, the moving parts inside don't last forever. Flash media (or something like it) on the other hand, since it has no moving parts, should make an effective means of archiving, I would think....


----------



## Lord Vader

Chris Blount said:


> I agree. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's days are numbered. I said this back in 06 and I still believe it:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=611575&postcount=11
> 
> It's only a matter of time before hard media will be a thing of the past.


If so, Chris, that won't happen for a *very* long time, if that. There are a LOT of people out there who lack the knowledge and ability to do this. I'd be willing to bet that a small percentage right now has the means, ability, and knowledge to do this, and that won't grow dramatically larger for quite some time.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Downloading will likely only replace DVDs and HD optical only when it includes another form of transportable storage that works in all the ways we use DVDs and CDs today. 

I can see downloading working in the home network very well, but I also have a DVD player in my van and my laptop. Family members have players in their RVs, boats, etc. In short, everywhere we live and play.

When I can take a copy of a downloaded item as easily as I can take a DVD, then optical will be replaced within a few cycles of consumer electronics equipment.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## smiddy

Both Vader and Tom, these are fine arguements, we're not as connected as can be done, I think the interfaces to do that is coming but it will take considerable time due to the monies involved by the consumer in order to change.


----------



## dhhaines

smiddy said:


> Both Vader and Tom, these are fine arguements, we're not as connected as can be done, I think the interfaces to do that is coming but it will take considerable time due to the monies involved by the consumer in order to change.


 And also the matter of copy protection. The studio's still think that everyone who copies media to another device is a pirate and a thief.


----------



## smiddy

dhhaines said:


> And also the matter of copy protection. The studio's still think that everyone who copies media to another device is a pirate and a thief.


Yep, it is only because of the patch we all wear over the one eye, that they'd accuse any of us of that, right? :lol:

You are right though...it is a sad thing. I have paid for all my stuff (CDs, DVD, VHS, albums, cassettes). So long as I'm not making a profit from it and use it for personal use...I don't understand.


----------



## Sirshagg

I'm sure the studios will get their shorts in a bunch is content is stored ona hard drive (or similiar device) and could be watched on multiple devices in a home at once. In this case they would probably think that you should have to pay for the content as many time as it would be viewed at once (like would be necessary with a DVD.


----------



## DBS Commando

Toshiba cuts prices on HD players by 50%:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080114/tc_nm/toshiba_hddvd_dc_1


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Just read that. I hate to say it but a price cut is what you do when you haven't got anything else to offer. With retail prices now as low as $149, though, meaning sale prices down to maybe $99... who knows.


----------



## Drew2k

Stuart Sweet said:


> Just read that. I hate to say it but a price cut is what you do when you haven't got anything else to offer. With retail prices now as low as $149, though, meaning sale prices down to maybe $99... who knows.


Well, if it brings the "entry" level HD player down to this price, many people looking for an upconvert player may buy the HD hardware instead, simply because the prices are similar. Then after they have purchased the HD player, they pass a buy-two-get-one-free sale, and suddenly they have three HD DVDs. Suddenly the sales counts for HD-DVDs start climbing ...

Maybe not such a bad move if Toshiba can inch consumers into the HD market and convince them to buy the movies ...


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Just read that. I hate to say it but a price cut is what you do when you haven't got anything else to offer. With retail prices now as low as $149, though, meaning sale prices down to maybe $99... who knows.


While not easily dismissable as an argument... I always find this reaction interesting. Everyone knows that technology gets cheaper with time, and yet no one would declare that all the $40 DVD players available right now are on a "fire sale".

While it may be true Toshiba is taking some additional losses to help grow the market by artificially lowering their player prices... it may also be true that the technology has also gotten cheaper to make and thus they are taking loss instead of breaking even or being profitable, but not necessarily taking any more of a loss than they may have done from the beginning.

We just don't know.

If all lowering of prices were treated and reacted to the same... then we'd have to say every time they have a sale on Blu ray movies, that must be a fire sale too, right?


----------



## Pinion413

Drew2k said:


> Maybe not such a bad move if Toshiba can inch consumers into the HD market and convince them to buy the movies ...


It's either that, or they'll fall flat.

This seriously looks to me like a last ditch effort. If not that, then at the very least a slight sign of desperation.


----------



## smiddy

Pinion413 said:


> It's either that, or they'll fall flat.
> 
> This seriously looks to me like a last ditch effort. If not that, then at the very least a slight sign of desperation.


Time will tell.


----------



## David Carmichael

I have seen 'Sony' do this with a line of 'Pro-Consumer' Video Cameras in the mid '80... When at that time 'RCA' decided to drop out of the Pro-Consumer market, (which at that time was Sony's main competitor in the market place) promised add-on features were suddenly found not needed... such as multi camera switcher with fade and gen-lock...

So you know what will happen to 'BD-Live' if it is not already on set-top drives being sold when and if Toshiba drops HD-DVD.... You will never see that feature on a 'Blu-Ray' disc!.. a feature which every HD-DVD drive has!

--David


----------



## ebaltz

David Carmichael said:


> I have seen 'Sony' do this with a line of 'Pro-Consumer' Video Cameras in the mid '80... When at that time 'RCA' decided to drop out of the Pro-Consumer market, (which at that time was Sony's main competitor in the market place) promised add-on features were suddenly found not needed... such as multi camera switcher with fade and gen-lock...
> 
> So you know what will happen to 'BD-Live' if it is not already on set-top drives being sold when and if Toshiba drops HD-DVD.... You will never see that feature on a 'Blu-Ray' disc!.. a feature which every HD-DVD drive has!
> 
> --David


Of course the difference being it is HD DVD that has no competitive manufacturers to Toshiba, while the BDA has many many manufactures of blu-ray players which will continue to produce and compete in the market, just like there were DVD players competing against each other and CD players etc... etc... but I guess if you buy into the "Sony is evil" conspiracy then the sky must be falling for you.


----------



## chris0

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Makes one wonder why the studios are leaning the Blu Ray direction, since there will clearly be a public outcry once the mainstream market catches wind of that.


The mainstream market doesn't own either format yet. Why would they be mad?


----------



## AlbertZeroK

ebaltz said:


> Of course the difference being it is HD DVD that has no competitive manufacturers to Toshiba, while the BDA has many many manufactures of blu-ray players which will continue to produce and compete in the market, just like there were DVD players competing against each other and CD players etc... etc... but I guess if you buy into the "Sony is evil" conspiracy then the sky must be falling for you.


I'm not sure how true that is and to what extent that is true. Are there different manufactures? Possibly. Or are all the Blu-Ray players made in 2 plants somewhere with different brandings leaving the manufactures only responsible for marketing and distrubution? I'm assuming each member is given a "tool kit" to create their own player from, meaning that likely most of the source code and hardware design is already done for them. So it may not be the competition some think it is between the manufactures.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

HDMe said:


> While not easily dismissable as an argument... I always find this reaction interesting. Everyone knows that technology gets cheaper with time, and yet no one would declare that all the $40 DVD players available right now are on a "fire sale".
> 
> While it may be true Toshiba is taking some additional losses to help grow the market by artificially lowering their player prices... it may also be true that the technology has also gotten cheaper to make and thus they are taking loss instead of breaking even or being profitable, but not necessarily taking any more of a loss than they may have done from the beginning.
> 
> We just don't know.
> 
> If all lowering of prices were treated and reacted to the same... then we'd have to say every time they have a sale on Blu ray movies, that must be a fire sale too, right?


You make a good point. I was speaking not of technology but of products in general. In general, when your primary competitor says, "We've got more capabilities" then if you don't, the only thing you can sell on is price. Sometimes it works, especially if the market perceives that the capabilities of the lower-priced item are sufficient.



ebaltz said:


> Of course the difference being it is HD DVD that has no competitive manufacturers to Toshiba (...)


Actually "Venturer" is making HD-DVD standalones, and LG and Samsung are making combo units.

Hey, I'm the guy who bought the HD DVD player and has close to 20 discs already. I'd love to keep that investment alive. I just don't want to hide from the truth... that things are dark for the HD DVD camp right now.


----------



## DawgLink

If HD-DVD did drastically drop their prices, I would hope Blu-Ray would counter with just a slight drop of their own 

Nothing major of course but anything lower is better


----------



## ebaltz

> Actually "Venturer" is making HD-DVD standalones, and LG and Samsung are making combo units.
> Hey, I'm the guy who bought the HD DVD player and has close to 20 discs already. I'd love to keep that investment alive. I just don't want to hide from the truth... that things are dark for the HD DVD camp right now.


Exactly as I said, no competition. Venturer? Yeah such a well known brand name, I bet those are just flying off the shelves everywhere. LG and Samsung, as you said make dual format players, not HD DVD stand alones, so that isn't really straight up competition is it now. Plus have you checked the prices on the dual format players? Again, hardly competition, and they will soon be dropped as well. Its a fire sale, and everyone knows it. The point is, Blu-ray doesn't need to lower there prices because they feel they are selling well enough as they are. The favorite blu-ray player, the PS3 has sold about a million more than HD DVD players.


----------



## Cholly

ebaltz said:


> Of course the difference being it is HD DVD that has no competitive manufacturers to Toshiba, while the BDA has many many manufactures of blu-ray players which will continue to produce and compete in the market, just like there were DVD players competing against each other and CD players etc... etc... but I guess if you buy into the "Sony is evil" conspiracy then the sky must be falling for you.


Actually, Venturer is a big player in the low cost market. Their products are often rebranded for major retailers, such as Wal-Mart and KMart. Whether you frequent these stores or not, they sell a lot of Venturer products. Onkyo is also making or marketing HD DVD players. The Onkyo DV-HD805 is apparently a rebranded/repackaged Toshiba XA2. Having a minimal number of hardware manufacturers is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the quality is high.

As the owner of two Toshiba HD DVD players (A2 and A3), I am very satisfied with picture and sound quality. The players operate flawlessly, and I have 25 HD DVD's in my collection at present. Do I wish Warner isn't abandoning HD DVD? Of course. Just as I wish Sony, Fox and Disney produced HD DVD's.

If, indeed, the format war ends with Blu-ray Disc emerging as the sole format, I will still keep my HD DVD players. It is downright silly for someone to rush to sell their player and movie collection on eBay. It's not like the hardware has suddenly failed.

Once the dust has settled and Blu-ray Disc players supporting profile 2.0 are on the market at a reasonable price (<$250), I'll probably buy one. For me, a PS3 at $399 or more is not the answer, even if it can be upgraded to profile 2.0.

Speaking of orphans -- I feel sorry for the early adopters of profile 1.0 Blu-ray Disc players that are not upgradeable.


----------



## PTravel

Cholly said:


> If, indeed, the format war ends with Blu-ray Disc emerging as the sole format, I will still keep my HD DVD players. It is downright silly for someone to rush to sell their player and movie collection on eBay. It's not like the hardware has suddenly failed. .


I have an A3, and also a Sony BDP-S300 BluRay player. I'm also satisfied with A3, though it's only 1080i, vs. 1080p for the Sony BluRay player. However, if BluRay wins this battle, I'll also keep my A3. It's a good player for my home-burned HD videos and I'll take advantage of the fire sales on all those good HD-DVD titles that will be offered for pennies.


----------



## texaswolf

DawgLink said:


> If HD-DVD did drastically drop their prices, I would hope Blu-Ray would counter with just a slight drop of their own
> 
> Nothing major of course but anything lower is better


maybe on some movies....but i wouldn't count on the players...unless it's places like wal-mart who were lowering the prices on the stand alone units, because they were collecting dust....


----------



## machavez00

You can now rent movies and shows via the iTunes store. Only a matter of time before HD content is included.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That may be, but first more people need really really fast internet (>20Mbps) and the backbones and server farms have to permit sustained transfers that fast. I see it coming, just don't know when.


----------



## smiddy

Soon.


----------



## machavez00

http://www.apple.com/appletv/rentals.html

Now the war is over


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> http://www.apple.com/appletv/rentals.html
> 
> Now the war is over


How so?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

When AppleTV has HD movies with the same special features at the same quality as HD DVD, then we'll talk.


----------



## Carl Spock

Mike728 said:


> machavez00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.apple.com/appletv/rentals.html
> 
> Now the war is over
> 
> 
> 
> How so?
Click to expand...

It's like this, Mike:

We take all DVD movie renters and take a subset of them that would rent hi-def movies (one in a hundred as a guess?)

And then we take a subset of those that have Apple TV (I'll be real generous here and say one in ten as both groups are early adopters)

That means that one out of every thousand DVD renters can now rent hi-def movies to be watched on their Apple TV.

See, game over. Isn't it obvious?


----------



## mridan

Stuart Sweet said:


> When AppleTV has HD movies with the same special features at the same quality as HD DVD, then we'll talk.


Also I would like the option of buying the movie and storing it on the hard drive indefinitely and being able to view movies on any television in home.My ATT DSL averages 5MPS there going to have to significantly increase there speed and I don't see that happening any time soon.


----------



## Mike728

Carl Spock said:


> It's like this, Mike:
> 
> We take all DVD movie renters and take a subset of them that would rent hi-def movies (one in a hundred as a guess?)
> 
> And then we take a subset of those that have Apple TV (I'll be real generous here and also say one in ten as both groups are early adopters)
> 
> That means that one out of every thousand DVD renters can now rent hi-def movies to be watched on their Apple TV.
> 
> See, game over. Isn't it obvious?


Oh...That makes it perfectly clear. :rolling:


----------



## machavez00

For us Mac owners.....
Point being for anyone to call the war "over" is premature. When and if the other studios drop HD DVD, you can't buy discs from overseas and Toshiba start making BD players, then the war will be over


----------



## DCSholtis

machavez00 said:


> For us Mac owners.....
> Point being for anyone to call the war "over" is premature. When and if the other studios drop HD DVD, you can't buy discs from overseas and Toshiba start making BD players, then the war will be over


A BIG +1 on that point.


----------



## ebaltz

Cholly said:


> Actually, Venturer is a big player in the low cost market. Their products are often rebranded for major retailers, such as Wal-Mart and KMart. Whether you frequent these stores or not, they sell a lot of Venturer products. Onkyo is also making or marketing HD DVD players. The Onkyo DV-HD805 is apparently a rebranded/repackaged Toshiba XA2. Having a minimal number of hardware manufacturers is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the quality is high.


Because nothing says "quality" like rebranded K-mart and Wal-Mart products.


----------



## bobukcat

machavez00 said:


> For us Mac owners.....
> Point being for anyone to call the war "over" is premature. When and if the other studios drop HD DVD, you can't buy discs from overseas and Toshiba start making BD players, then the war will be over


I'll give you all of that except the part about Tosh making BD players, it will probably be over before that (if BD does win) just like Beta was pretty dead long before Sony made their first VHS machine.


----------



## BlueSnake

ebaltz said:


> Because nothing says "quality" like rebranded K-mart and Wal-Mart products.


Well if you think Sony says quality then I suggest you take another look at some of the electronics forums online. I used to be a huge Sony fan, but after having major problems with a 1 year old Sony RPTV. I'm done with them. I expect after paying over $2000 for a TV for it to last more than a year. Sony is not the company it was 20 years ago.

Also tell me how happy you are with Sony after the updated of Blu-ray discs come out with new features that won't work or are not available on your Blu-ray player. I guess you'll be happy to shell out more money for the new features. by purchasing a newer Blu-ray player. By the way, these interactive features are already available and working on my HD DVD player.

You are the definition of a "fan boy". What' wrong, are you afraid that Sony is going to lose again? If Sony wins we'll all lose.


----------



## Pinion413

DawgLink said:


> If HD-DVD did drastically drop their prices, I would hope Blu-Ray would counter with just a slight drop of their own
> 
> Nothing major of course but anything lower is better


I'd bite if they'd lower the "software" along with the hardware.

For the time being, I'm staying out of HD-DVD since I don't see it lasting (and haven't all along), and I'm staying out of Blu-ray since it's so damned expensive.

I can't justify paying at least double for a movie what it would cost me to just buy it on DVD. Where, granted, upscaled DVD is not HD, it looks good enough for me to save the $15-$20 per title. If the B-r version was say, an extra $5-$7, I could see springing for it. The way it is now though, forget it (in my opinion anyway :grin.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Pinion413 said:


> I'd bite if they'd lower the "software" along with the hardware..


Amazon has HD DVDs (BDs too probably) starting at $14.99.


----------



## ebaltz

Pinion413 said:


> I'd bite if they'd lower the "software" along with the hardware.
> 
> For the time being, I'm staying out of HD-DVD since I don't see it lasting (and haven't all along), and I'm staying out of Blu-ray since it's so damned expensive.
> 
> I can't justify paying at least double for a movie what it would cost me to just buy it on DVD. Where, granted, upscaled DVD is not HD, it looks good enough for me to save the $15-$20 per title. If the B-r version was say, an extra $5-$7, I could see springing for it. The way it is now though, forget it (in my opinion anyway :grin.


If you shop a little the price difference can be $0 or maybe $5. How much more would you pay for a DVD than a VHS tape?


----------



## ebaltz

BlueSnake said:


> Well if you think Sony says quality then I suggest you take another look at some of the electronics forums online. I used to be a huge Sony fan, but after having major problems with a 1 year old Sony RPTV. I'm done with them. I expect after paying over $2000 for a TV for it to last more than a year. Sony is not the company it was 20 years ago.
> 
> Also tell me how happy you are with Sony after the updated of Blu-ray discs come out with new features that won't work or are not available on your Blu-ray player. I guess you'll be happy to shell out more money for the new features. by purchasing a newer Blu-ray player. By the way, these interactive features are already available and working on my HD DVD player.
> 
> You are the definition of a "fan boy". What' wrong, are you afraid that Sony is going to lose again? If Sony wins we'll all lose.


So you are comparing Wal-mart brand to Sony. Okay enjoy. I'll stick with what I like, you stick with what you like. Is your trailerhouse on wheels or cement blocks?


----------



## ebaltz

bobukcat said:


> I'll give you all of that except the part about Tosh making BD players, it will probably be over before that (if BD does win) just like Beta was pretty dead long before Sony made their first VHS machine.


Yep, and you would think that Toshiba might take a lesson from history on that. They can stubbornly refuse to change/adapt for years and screw themselves out of income, or they can give up the ghost once their firesale is over and switch now and get in on the revenue.


----------



## DCSholtis

Stuart Sweet said:


> Amazon has HD DVDs (BDs too probably) starting at $14.99.


Correct Blu Rays are the same price. Not all but some just like the HD DVDs.


----------



## BudShark

Pinion413 said:


> and I'm staying out of Blu-ray since it's so damned expensive.


How is it sooo *damned* expensive? A little looking and you can get some great deals... The movies can be had for the same price and the hardware - apples to apples was the same price until recent Toshiba fire sales...

Chris


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> So you are comparing Wal-mart brand to Sony. Okay enjoy. I'll stick with what I like, you stick with what you like. Is your trailerhouse on wheels or cement blocks?


Ahhh the common sense guy is back...are you claiming that your PS3 BR player is better than anything that HDDVD has out there? Have you even tried a HDDVD player yet? didn't think so....a little news flash for ya bud.. if you pay $400 for an HD product when you can get it cheaper at a Wal-mart type store...it doesn't make it better "quality"... it makes you a stupid consumer...people like you who only get info from Sony, or BR backing people, are what helps bolster these companies into charging the stupid prices they do....if it wasn't for "fan boys" they would have to drop prices to keep up with price conscious consumers.


> How much more would you pay for a DVD than a VHS tape?


It's funny how you try to spit out facts to those of us who have both players hooked up to our tvs...try doing a little comparison for yourself, by yourself. Maybe go into a wal-mart (if you can stand the low quality people) get an HDDVD player....rent some HD movies, and return it when your done...THEN come back on here and tells whats what.


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> How is it sooo *damned* expensive? A little looking and you can get some great deals... The movies can be had for the same price and the hardware - apples to apples was the same price until recent Toshiba fire sales...
> 
> Chris


fire sales will grab the average joe...you can find decent deals on a BR player, but will it play all the BR movies? thats the scary thing


----------



## Pinion413

ebaltz said:


> If you shop a little the price difference can be $0 or maybe $5. How much more would you pay for a DVD than a VHS tape?


Touché.


----------



## Pinion413

BudShark said:


> How is it sooo *damned* expensive? A little looking and you can get some great deals... The movies can be had for the same price and the hardware - apples to apples was the same price until recent Toshiba fire sales...
> 
> Chris


Sorry. I'm only going by what I'd seen in stores. I didn't pursue it deep enough on the interwebs since wasn't considering buying into either.

From what I have seen in B.A.M. stores around here, HD-DVD players have been lower priced than Blu-ray ones for awhile, and movies on HD-DVD at least $5 less than Blu-Ray if the title was on both. Blu-ray players were more expensive overall, and so were the titles the last few times I've looked at them. And I'm not counting free titles with purchase on either, just what I saw on shelves. That's all I meant. :grin:


----------



## GrumpyBear

texaswolf said:


> fire sales will grab the average joe...you can find decent deals on a BR player, but will it play all the BR movies? thats the scary thing


I feel sorry for all those buying BR players now, just to find out, that is a dead end, just as much as HD-DVD if BR wins out.

They are Not upgradable to Profile(version)2.0 I love it when the Fanboy's pump out, BR is better look at all the BR player companies there are out there, but forget that only a Gamebox, will be upgradable, as the other BR Players wont, meet the mandatory requirements, for Profile2.0, which REQUIRES a ethernet internet connection. So there is only really ONE and ONLY one system that currently is not a dead-end on the BR side of things, a gamebox. They point out one of the big problems with HD-DvD is only Toshiba makes them, sounds like BR players have the same problem, and are duping the PT Barnum's out there, who will end up, having to buy a NEW $400 machine in just a few years. So I will pick up a Fire sale HD-DVD player for my Xbox360( a superior gamebox) dirt cheap, but those in a panic, and will probably buy a BR addon for xbox360 down the road. 
Waiting on the PS3 as they still don't have rumble control, A Basic option for a GameBox.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ebaltz said:


> So you are comparing Wal-mart brand to Sony. Okay enjoy. I'll stick with what I like, you stick with what you like. Is your trailerhouse on wheels or cement blocks?


I also have a long but distinguished list of objections to Sony and Blu Ray, but I don't believe it takes your kind of last personal statement to make *any* point on this subject.

Even though it was directed to someone else I don't even know myself, I was offended.

Hopefully, we can keep the comments and focus on the merits of one format in comparison to the other in this thread, otherwise, I could envision the Mods ending this dialog very quickly.


----------



## Mike728

GrumpyBear said:


> I feel sorry for all those buying BR players now, just to find out, that is a dead end, just as much as HD-DVD if BR wins out....................


I only watch movies for the content, not the extra features. I own both formats (2 HD and 1 BR). I don't think the inability of my BR player to upgrade to version 2.0 will hinder its capability of viewing of the latest disc's. I've only used my HD-DVD's Ethernet connection for upgrading SW. I can do that to the Blu-ray via CD-R.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> So you are comparing Wal-mart brand to Sony. Okay enjoy. I'll stick with what I like, you stick with what you like. Is your trailerhouse on wheels or cement blocks?


I hate to see folks bashing K-Mart or Wal-mart for the "it is cheap so it must be crap" reason. In my area it is true that many of the K-Mart and Wal-Mart stores are not as well kept as they were say 10 years ago... but that is more indicative of the lack of management at these local locations than the quality of the store in general.

Any product that is at K/Wal-Mart for cheaper price than a "more classy" store is the same product... and I have no shame going into a K/Wal-Mart and making a purchase. In fact, back in the day when the PS/2 was all the rage and no one in town BUT Wal-Mart had the hard-to-find network adapters, I was happy to walkin and buy one rather than looking down my nose at their cheap prices.

As for K/Wal-mart brands... Like any other store-brand, your mileage may vary. I hate grocery store brand colas, as a rule, so I stay away from those... but store brand corn is about the same as Green Giant and for less money most of the time. Why would I pay more when corn is corn?

Same goes for electronics... Once you get past the top-of-the-line products, almost any technology that has been around a few years is about the same quality across many brands. In fact, if you look under the covers, you may find that the Wal-Mart brand product you think is beneath you is actually made in the same factory by the same people that make your Sony/Samsung/Panasonic/whatever product you think is so much better.


----------



## texaswolf

Mike728 said:


> I only watch movies for the content, not the extra features. I own both formats (2 HD and 1 BR). I don't think the inability of my BR player to upgrade to version 2.0 will hinder its capability of viewing of the latest disc's. I've only used my HD-DVD's Ethernet connection for upgrading SW. I can do that to the Blu-ray via CD-R.


i haven't had an issue yet with the ps3...but a lot of people have with FOX movies and some other movies not playing in their players...which was a main reason Paramount jumped ship from them.


----------



## Mike728

texaswolf said:


> i haven't had an issue yet with the ps3...but a lot of people have with FOX movies and some other movies...which was a main reason Paramount jumped ship from them.


Those issues were addressed with a SW update.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Mike728 said:


> I only watch movies for the content, not the extra features. I own both formats (2 HD and 1 BR). I don't think the inability of my BR player to upgrade to version 2.0 will hinder its capability of viewing of the latest disc's. I've only used my HD-DVD's Ethernet connection for upgrading SW. I can do that to the Blu-ray via CD-R.


Correct, the "CURRENT" Movie release's and release's up to when 2.0 is released shouldn't be a problem at all. Once 2.0 is offically released.... your Early adoption BR will be just as useful as a HD-DVD player, great for upscaling and great for your current library, and there is NOTHING wrong with that at all. Fanboy's just need to remember that. ONLY BR Player out there, that wont be outdated in the NEAR future will be a gamebox, and Current BR players will be just as useful as a HD-DVD player, great for upscaling, and thier current library, they aren't losing out either.


----------



## Mike728

GrumpyBear said:


> Correct, the "CURRENT" Movie release's and release's up to when 2.0 is released shouldn't be a problem at all. Once 2.0 is offically released.... your Early adoption BR will be just as useful as a HD-DVD player,


Please elaborate and convince me it's junk. I can still take it back, since I just bought it over the weekend.


----------



## texaswolf

Mike728 said:


> Please elaborate and convince me it's junk. I can still take it back, since I just bought it over the weekend.


:lol: good idea...take it back and exchange it for a ps3 (if you still want BR)...at least you'll have a game console to enjoy too...or depending on what you paid for it...you could get a ps3 and a HDVD player for a little more total...and not have to worry about the format war at all


----------



## Mike728

texaswolf said:


> :lol: good idea...take it back and exchange it for a ps3 (if you still want BR)...at least you'll have a game console to enjoy too...or depending on what you paid for it...you could get a ps3 and a HDVD player for a little more total...and not have to worry about the format war at all


I already have both. What will I not be able to watch once 2.0 becomes the standard?


----------



## GrumpyBear

Mike728 said:


> Please elaborate and convince me it's junk. I can still take it back, since I just bought it over the weekend.


Didn't say it was "Junk" it is still a very good player, if you got it, enjoy it, let it upscale your older dvd's, by your blu-ray movies, enjoy it to your hearts content.
Just remember, new Spec 2.0 is coming out, yours wont be upgradable to it. Still not the end of the world as you may or may not every buy a movie that uses the features. Thing of it is, IT is and will be just as useful in just a few years as a HD-DVD player, and those people aren't losing out at all either, even if BR wins out.


----------



## DawgLink

Mike728 said:


> Those issues were addressed with a SW update.


Correct. That was addressed very well with a previous update.


----------



## texaswolf

Mike728 said:


> I already have both. What will I not be able to watch once 2.0 becomes the standard?


when you say both...you already have a ps3?


----------



## harsh

BudShark said:


> How is it sooo *damned* expensive? A little looking and you can get some great deals... The movies can be had for the same price and the hardware - apples to apples was the same price until recent Toshiba fire sales...


What model BD player has PIP, Ethernet and interactive features supported by current software?

IOW, what models are feature and price comparable? My reading puts a $200 or more premium on the Blu-Ray devices.


----------



## bobukcat

GrumpyBear said:


> Didn't say it was "Junk" it is still a very good player, if you got it, enjoy it, let it upscale your older dvd's, by your blu-ray movies, enjoy it to your hearts content.
> Just remember, new Spec 2.0 is coming out, yours wont be upgradable to it. Still not the end of the world as you may or may not every buy a movie that uses the features. Thing of it is, IT is and will be just as useful in just a few years as a HD-DVD player, and those people aren't losing out at all either, even if BR wins out.


I understand your point but think that it may be slightly misleading - even if the player won't upgrade to profile 2.X - that doesn't necessarily mean it won't still play every BD title released in the future (it may not, but we have no evidence to that effect). It may not play certain special "interactive" features (yawn IMO) as you said but that would not make it "just as useful as an HD-DVD player IF, indeed, BD does win the war and HD-DVDs are no longer produced by the major studios. (please note I said "IF" before anyone decides to "flame-on")


----------



## ebaltz

GrumpyBear said:


> I feel sorry for all those buying BR players now, just to find out, that is a dead end, just as much as HD-DVD if BR wins out.
> 
> They are Not upgradable to Profile(version)2.0 I love it when the Fanboy's pump out, BR is better look at all the BR player companies there are out there, but forget that only a Gamebox, will be upgradable, as the other BR Players wont, meet the mandatory requirements, for Profile2.0, which REQUIRES a ethernet internet connection. So there is only really ONE and ONLY one system that currently is not a dead-end on the BR side of things, a gamebox. They point out one of the big problems with HD-DvD is only Toshiba makes them, sounds like BR players have the same problem, and are duping the PT Barnum's out there, who will end up, having to buy a NEW $400 machine in just a few years. So I will pick up a Fire sale HD-DVD player for my Xbox360( a superior gamebox) dirt cheap, but those in a panic, and will probably buy a BR addon for xbox360 down the road.
> Waiting on the PS3 as they still don't have rumble control, A Basic option for a GameBox.


You have no idea what you are even talking about, MANY Blu-ray players are upgradeable.


----------



## DCSholtis

ebaltz said:


> You have no idea what you are even talking about, MANY Blu-ray players are upgradeable.


No that is plain FUD. None of the standalone players are upgradeable. Well unless you count upgradeable as replacing it for a newer one.


----------



## brian188

DCSholtis said:


> No that is plain FUD. None of the standalone players are upgradeable. Well unless you count upgradeable as replacing it for a newer one.


 I just upgraded my Sony Blu ray 2 days ago. Funny I don't remember Best Buy being involved. I thought I put an upgrade disc in the drive. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :eek2:


----------



## Carl Spock

This was published in T.W.I.C.E. magazine, an electronics industry trade journal, a couple of days ago. I saw it Monday and it's taken me since then to get up the guts to post it in this thread. _Don't tase me, bro!_ I'm official agnostsic in this debate. :grin:



> *Toshiba Takes HD DVD On Offensive*
> 
> By Greg Tarr -- TWICE, 1/14/2008 6:43:00 AM
> 
> Wayne, N.J. - Rather than reeling from the body blow dealt to its HD DVD format by Warner Bros., Toshiba came back from International CES on the attack by stepping up its marketing campaign in the light of what it called "record-breaking unit sales in the fourth quarter of 2007."
> 
> Toshiba said Monday it is running major initiatives, including joint advertising campaigns with studios and extended pricing strategies set to begin in mid-January.
> 
> The efforts are "designed to spotlight the superior benefits of HD DVD as well as the benefits HD DVD brings to a consumer's current DVD library by up-converting standard DVDs via the HDMI output to near high-definition picture quality," according to a statement.
> 
> Toshiba said sales of HD DVD "achieved the No. 1 sales volume in the next-generation DVD category with an approximately 50 percent market share in 2007," and "HD DVD is proven to be the format of choice for consumers."
> 
> Toshiba said the format also accounted for "an 80-percent-plus market share of all next-generation DVD-equipped notebooks for the fourth quarter 2007."
> 
> In a somewhat new approach, Toshiba is also now touting the ability of its HD DVD players to up-convert standard DVDs to near-HD quality while extolling the virtues of the older format, on which HD DVD is based.


For the complete article, click here.


----------



## ebaltz

DCSholtis said:


> No that is plain FUD. None of the standalone players are upgradeable. Well unless you count upgradeable as replacing it for a newer one.


Apparently you know nothing. Its better to be thought ignorant than open your mouth and leave no doubt.


----------



## machavez00

Play nice


----------



## Sirshagg

GrumpyBear said:


> I feel sorry for all those buying BR players now, just to find out, that is a dead end, just as much as HD-DVD if BR wins out.
> 
> They are Not upgradable to Profile(version)2.0 ...


Aren't the different profile versions simply for added features? Any BR player will play any BR movie - it's the extra features you may loose out on with the older profile. No?

p.s. I don't own either format but am considering an HD-DVD at the firesale prices just for upconverting DVD's.


----------



## machavez00

Sirshagg said:


> Aren't the different profile versions simply for added features? Any BR player will play any BR movie - it's the extra features you may loose out on with the older profile. No?
> 
> p.s. I don't own either format but am considering an HD-DVD at the firesale prices just for upconverting DVD's.


As I understand, there were some recent BD releases(1.1?) that would not play on some older 1.0 players.


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## mridan

Sirshagg said:


> Aren't the different profile versions simply for added features? Any BR player will play any BR movie - it's the extra features you may loose out on with the older profile. No?
> 
> p.s. I don't own either format but am considering an HD-DVD at the firesale prices just for upconverting DVD's.


I believe with profile 2.0 it will have an ethernet port so you could access special features on the disc and I guess download movie trailers,to me I could care less about all that extra fluff.Sometimes my wife and I will watch outakes or the making of the movie ,but rarely.All I care about is having the best quality picture and sound.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Apparently you know nothing. Its better to be thought ignorant than open your mouth and leave no doubt.


something you have done quite well....bought a HDDVD player to compare yet? or are you still "leaving no doubt" that you don't have a clue?

Stand alone 1.0 profile BR players ....can not....upgrade to 1.1/2.0..... i bet if you even do a little searching you would find that out...if thats not enough for you...heres the statement from the BR camp head:

*Blu-ray early adopters "knew what they were getting into," apparently*

Posted Jan 14th 2008 9:09PM by Darren Murph (Engadget HD)
Filed under: Industry, Blu-ray, Players

As if there hasn't been enough debate over the *inability of Profile 1.0 players to make the leap to Profile 1.1 / 2.0*, the folks manning the Blu-ray booth at CES gave us all something else to yap about. According to BetaNews, BD representatives on hand proclaimed that early adopters *"knew what they were getting into" when they purchased a player that lacked advanced functionality such as Bonus View and BD Live.* Apparently, *BDA President Andy Parsons* felt the same way, as he noted that it was par for the course for technology to evolve and change. 'Course, we suppose there's no room to argue with that, but we can certainly sympathize with folks yearning for an easier way to receive Profile updates. Then again, it's not like the Blu camp had much choice but to pull the trigger and* rush players to market if it wanted to keep pace with HD DVD*, right?

good to see they are about the consumer...leaving the "early adopters" out in the cold

now before you get into the ..."who cares about bonus features" keep in mind all that talk you've been spouting about *"quality players"*

personally, if i am going to spend $399 or more on a stand alone...that puppy better be able to play *all* the features, and have great quality....why pay that much and still miss out on things included on an HD disc?

It's funny that a $99 player can play all the features that a $400 player cant.....or is it?


----------



## ebaltz

BD 2.0 only adds extras functionality, it has nothing to do with the viewing of the movie. All BD disc are readable in all BD players. Extras features will be added to specs as time prgresses and new technology comes along. The focus, however of BD has always been the highest quality video and sound (unlike HD DVD that made 1080i players, which can never become 1080p players). Many people care nothing about extras, they just want the best quality movie (more storage space, more layers) and best quality sound.

Its all a moot point anyway. Toshiba's fire sale is a precurser to the end of all this non-sense and 6 months from now, this forum can be removed and replaced with Blu-ray v. Downloads or Blu-ray verses R2-D2s holographic playback or whatever.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> BD 2.0 only adds extras functionality, it has nothing to do with the viewing of the movie. *All BD disc are readable in all BD players*. Extras features will be added to specs as time prgresses and new technology comes along. The focus, however of BD has always been the highest quality video and sound (unlike HD DVD that made 1080i players, which can never become 1080p players). Many people care nothing about extras, they just want the best quality movie (more storage space, more layers) and best quality sound.
> 
> Its all a moot point anyway. Toshiba's fire sale is a precurser to the end of all this non-sense and 6 months from now, this forum can be removed and replaced with Blu-ray v. Downloads or Blu-ray verses R2-D2s holographic playback or whatever.


Doing your home work once again i see:
*
Fox's new Blu-ray titles with BD+ won't play in all players*

Posted Oct 3rd 2007 8:19PM by Ben Drawbaugh (Engadget HD)
Filed under: Blu-ray, Samsung

Boy did we see this one coming. Fox just came out of their hiatus and with their first two releases they opted to use Blu-ray's optional DRM, BD+ -- which has been part of the spec, but this is the first time it's been used. The problem is that all the Blu-ray players aren't ready for BD+ yet, and without a firmware update you can't play the movies at all. You'd think the problem would only plauge 1st gen hardware, but the Samsung BD-P1000 was able to play the new discs just fine after a very long delay. The newer BD-P1200 didn't fair as well, but instead you see a scary red screen instructing you to install a firmware update that doesn't exist. We've contacted Samsung to see what the deal is and we'll let you know if we hear anything. We'd tell you to avoid titles with BD+ for now, but there's no way to know just from looking at the package, so just avoid just avoid these two Fox titles for now (The Day After Tomorrow and Fantastic 4: Rise of the Silver Surfer).

**UPDATE** unconfirmed reports indicate that it's a BD-J issue rather than BD+. Either way,* all the latest movies won't play in all the players, even with the latest firmware update.*

sure...just a few movies...but newer ones...and the updates should have fixed some players by now...but not the first gens.....question is...how is that* "quality" *vs price thing going for you now?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

If I were the HD DVD camp I would be shouting it from the rooftops - all HD DVD discs, as well as all commercial DVDs and most recorded DVDs, work with all HD DVD players. Every HD DVD standalone has an ethernet port and flash memory for upgrades.


----------



## texaswolf

Stuart Sweet said:


> If I were the HD DVD camp I would be shouting it from the rooftops - all HD DVD discs, as well as all commercial DVDs and most recorded DVDs, work with all HD DVD players. Every HD DVD standalone has an ethernet port and flash memory for upgrades.


So far all of my recorded disc have played in mine...which is nice


----------



## bobukcat

Stuart Sweet said:


> If I were the HD DVD camp I would be shouting it from the rooftops - all HD DVD discs, as well as all commercial DVDs and most recorded DVDs, work with all HD DVD players. Every HD DVD standalone has an ethernet port and flash memory for upgrades.


They are, as Spock pointed out earlier they are not giving up - and I wouldn't expect them to, it's still an emerging market and studio loyalties can change - plus they've sunk a ton of $$ into it already so it's going to cost some people their jobs if they are forced to p*** on the fire and call in the dogs. The question is, no matter how loudly they yell it, who is listening?? They could put a commercial on during the superbowl and the majority of people are still going to be saying "huh?" because they don't even know there are two new formats fighting it out.

To address the topic of certain players not being upgradeable (it only applies to special features), let's not all act like early adopters don't commonly get screwed over in the CE business! How many people do you suppose have HDTVs with no HDMI port, how many people bought VCRs months or days before the Hi-Fi versions came out, etc.?? It happens all the time, that may not make it right but let's not equate this to a really rare occurance - like a BD versus HD-DVD forum that doesn't get a least a little ugly. :uglyhamme


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> They are, as Spock pointed out earlier they are not giving up - and I wouldn't expect them to, it's still an emerging market and studio loyalties can change - plus they've sunk a ton of $$ into it already so it's going to cost some people their jobs if they are forced to p*** on the fire and call in the dogs. The question is, no matter how loudly they yell it, who is listening?? They could put a commercial on during the superbowl and the majority of people are still going to be saying "huh?" because they don't even know there are two new formats fighting it out.
> 
> To address the topic of certain players not being upgradeable (it only applies to special features), let's not all act like early adopters don't commonly get screwed over in the CE business! How many people do you suppose have HDTVs with no HDMI port, how many people bought VCRs months or days before the Hi-Fi versions came out, etc.?? It happens all the time, that may not make it right but let's not equate this to a really rare occurance - like a BD versus HD-DVD forum that doesn't get a least a little ugly. :uglyhamme


Very true...it does happen, but sometimes you have to show a little proof to those with blinders on. I don't think HD players have had any playback issues...which is another plus for them.

your right...this war unfortunately is being decided by Hollywood studios.... BR is having different profile issues, due to rushing out players to keep up with the HD stand alones...which only fairs bad for it's consumers. I really won't be to surprised if you see studios bounce back neutral or back and forth some more, if they start getting backlashing from all the people who can't play their new movies (like Paramount did). How will Disney feel...when they start releasing the classics with all new features...and not all fans can enjoy them?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

All excellent points. The early adopter does usually get the short end of things, I know I have from time to time. All good reasons why the Warner announcement was not the end of the war.


----------



## texaswolf

Stuart Sweet said:


> All excellent points. The early adopter does usually get the short end of things, I know I have from time to time. All good reasons why the Warner announcement was not the end of the war.


yeah, i was a little worried getting the 1st gen HD player, but at the price, i had to take the deal....and so far...it's paid of with old and new movies.


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> How will Disney feel...when they start releasing the classics with all new features...and not all fans can enjoy them?


They won't care they're unhappy, they'll just be thrilled they sold yet another version of Snow White or The Little Mermaid!! :up_to_som


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> BD 2.0 only adds extras functionality, it has nothing to do with the viewing of the movie. All BD disc are readable in all BD players. Extras features will be added to specs as time prgresses and new technology comes along. The focus, however of BD has always been the highest quality video and sound (unlike HD DVD that made 1080i players, which can never become 1080p players). Many people care nothing about extras, they just want the best quality movie (more storage space, more layers) and best quality sound.


How did we suddenly go from your saying all Blu ray players are upgradeable and future proof to now saying "extra features don't matter"?

Some folks seem to want to have it both ways. Truth to tell, extras don't matter that much to me... but you can't say everything is "future proof" and then say "Well, it doesn't matter" when offered evidence that you can't upgrade everything after all.

Can't say Blu ray always had the "highest quality" either, since some of their releases have been sub-par and a few used MPEG2 in the beginning as well. There are some sub-par HD DVD encodes too, but no one made a blanket "HD DVD is all about highest quality" type of statement to refute.

The 1080i vs 1080p is also VERY overrated. Firstly, movies are 24 fps for the most part. A handful of digitally shot movies (recent ones) may be 30 fps... but I'm not aware of any movies that are higher than that. 1080i delivers the same frame rate as 1080p when we are talking about 30fps or less... so unless and until there are any 60fps encodes available at 1080p, there is no difference to talk about here.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> How did we suddenly go from your saying all Blu ray players are upgradeable and future proof to now saying "extra features don't matter"?
> 
> Some folks seem to want to have it both ways. Truth to tell, extras don't matter that much to me... but you can't say everything is "future proof" and then say "Well, it doesn't matter" when offered evidence that you can't upgrade everything after all.
> 
> Can't say Blu ray always had the "highest quality" either, since some of their releases have been sub-par and a few used MPEG2 in the beginning as well. There are some sub-par HD DVD encodes too, but no one made a blanket "HD DVD is all about highest quality" type of statement to refute.
> 
> The 1080i vs 1080p is also VERY overrated. Firstly, movies are 24 fps for the most part. A handful of digitally shot movies (recent ones) may be 30 fps... but I'm not aware of any movies that are higher than that. 1080i delivers the same frame rate as 1080p when we are talking about 30fps or less... so unless and until there are any 60fps encodes available at 1080p, there is no difference to talk about here.


exactly...like my one friend stated after he was bragging all the way home about just buying a 1080p...opened it...watched a while, then called me and said "so why doesn't it look any different than yours?" (1080i) ..........I told him to take it back.... buy a much bigger one...then sit up close to it...and then he will see the difference...and make sure what your watching is actually shown in 1080p....lol


----------



## DCSholtis

ebaltz said:


> Apparently you know nothing. Its better to be thought ignorant than open your mouth and leave no doubt.


Apparently I DO know something as I'm sitting here with a profile 1.0 Sony BDP S-300, while ALSO enjoying a ToshibaA3 with the same backward compatibility that my Blu Ray SHOULD have had. Before you speak I suggest YOU do your homework.


----------



## texaswolf

DCSholtis said:


> Apparently I DO know something as I'm sitting here with a profile 1.0 Sony BDP S-300, while ALSO enjoying a ToshibaA3 with the same backward compatibility that my Blu Ray SHOULD have had. Before you speak I suggest YOU do your homework.


you have to keep in mind that earlier in this thread he stated that the ps3 was the best BR player, and was better than any HD player out there...mind you...he doesn't own an HD player to actually....know this:rolling:


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> you have to keep in mind that earlier in this thread he stated that the ps3 was the best BR player, and was better than any HD player out there...mind you...he doesn't own an HD player to actually....know this:rolling:


And you know this how?
And the PS3 is the best and most flexible and future proof machine out there that plays HD content.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> How did we suddenly go from your saying all Blu ray players are upgradeable and future proof to now saying "extra features don't matter"?
> 
> Some folks seem to want to have it both ways. Truth to tell, extras don't matter that much to me... but you can't say everything is "future proof" and then say "Well, it doesn't matter" when offered evidence that you can't upgrade everything after all.
> 
> Can't say Blu ray always had the "highest quality" either, since some of their releases have been sub-par and a few used MPEG2 in the beginning as well. There are some sub-par HD DVD encodes too, but no one made a blanket "HD DVD is all about highest quality" type of statement to refute.
> 
> The 1080i vs 1080p is also VERY overrated. Firstly, movies are 24 fps for the most part. A handful of digitally shot movies (recent ones) may be 30 fps... but I'm not aware of any movies that are higher than that. 1080i delivers the same frame rate as 1080p when we are talking about 30fps or less... so unless and until there are any 60fps encodes available at 1080p, there is no difference to talk about here.


Generally speaking the Blu-ray discs that have been "subpar" are the ones the studios dumbed down for the HD DVD and then transferred to blu-ray. They had to compress the HD DVD version more because of size limitations and decided not to use the BD to its full potential. Shame on the studios for doing that. I think that is why most of them have or are moving to Blu-ray only so they don't need to degrade things anymore to be produced in a cost effective way across two competing platforms.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> And you know this how?
> And the PS3 is the best and most flexible and future proof machine out there that plays HD content.


considering the bashing of HD your doing...i seriously doubt it...but since you brought it up....do you own an HD player?

Now on to the ps3 (this is getting fun) being th best BR player:

*Why the PS3 isn't the best Blu-ray player*

Posted Jan 2nd 2008 10:47AM by Ben Drawbaugh (Engadget HD)
Filed under: Blu-ray, Panasonic, Sony
Not too long ago we asked you what the best Blu-ray player was and as many would expect one of the hottest answers was the PS3. At $400, with the PS3's ability to be updated to support just about any new Blu-ray feature, it seems like the best value; but there's one thing about the PS3 that is often overlooked. No, we're not talking about the lack of IR remote (easily solved with a $15 adapter) we're talking about the limited audio codec support. Sure, the PS3 supports Doby TrueHD decoding internally, *but it lacks a big one, DTS HD.* For whatever reason, the PS3 does not support bitstream output -- no, not even TrueHD -- only PCM, and since there's no DTS HD decoder built in, *that leaves out one of the hottest new codecs*. Sure, only ~15% of Blu-ray titles even include a DTS HD sound track, *but judging by the upcoming releases from Sony, Disney, Fox, New Line and Lionsgate, we'd say this number is going to get a lot bigger. *At this point, the best option is the Panasonic DMP-BD30 and a newer HDMI 1.3a A/V...

I know, I know...who cares about a sound codec, right? Just trying to keep up with that *"quality"* thing you were talking about.

Keep in mind, that i'm getting these sources from Engadget HD...and anyone that knows them knows they are BR supporters....just incase you were wondering.


----------



## PTravel

ebaltz said:


> You have no idea what you are even talking about, MANY Blu-ray players are upgradeable.





DCSholtis said:


> No that is plain FUD. None of the standalone players are upgradeable. Well unless you count upgradeable as replacing it for a newer one.





brian188 said:


> I just upgraded my Sony Blu ray 2 days ago. Funny I don't remember Best Buy being involved. I thought I put an upgrade disc in the drive. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :eek2:


Most high-def players (HD-DVD and BluRay) are firmware-upgradeable and, as others have indicated, I've upgraded both my Sony and Toshiba machines. Neither, however, can have their hardware upgraded -- at least not easily. If a new spec requires additional memory, I'd be out of luck. Similarly, if a new spec requires that my Sony have internet access, that's not going to happen either.

From what I can tell BluRay 2.0 adds, among other things, internet capability. However, I have no interest in the kind of "special features" that would utilize the internet. As long as it can continue to play the main movie and the "making of" special feature, I'll be quite content to keep my current machine.


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## texaswolf

PTravel said:


> Most high-def players (HD-DVD and BluRay) are firmware-upgradeable and, as others have indicated, I've upgraded both my Sony and Toshiba machines. Neither, however, can have their hardware upgraded -- at least not easily. If a new spec requires additional memory, I'd be out of luck. Similarly, if a new spec requires that my Sony have internet access, that's not going to happen either.
> 
> From what I can tell BluRay 2.0 adds, among other things, internet capability. However, I have no interest in the kind of "special features" that would utilize the internet. As long as it can continue to play the main movie and the "making of" special feature, I'll be quite content to keep my current machine.


sure, and there is no reason why you shouldn't be content with it...we were just pointing out some obvious facts to someone claiming "quality" stores sell "quality" players, and obviously do not know everything they are claiming on players...in other words...we are just dealing with fanboy logic.


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## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> considering the bashing of HD your doing...i seriously doubt it...but since you brought it up....do you own an HD player?
> 
> Now on to the ps3 (this is getting fun) being th best BR player:
> 
> *Why the PS3 isn't the best Blu-ray player*
> 
> Posted Jan 2nd 2008 10:47AM by Ben Drawbaugh (Engadget HD)
> Filed under: Blu-ray, Panasonic, Sony
> Not too long ago we asked you what the best Blu-ray player was and as many would expect one of the hottest answers was the PS3. At $400, with the PS3's ability to be updated to support just about any new Blu-ray feature, it seems like the best value; but there's one thing about the PS3 that is often overlooked. No, we're not talking about the lack of IR remote (easily solved with a $15 adapter) we're talking about the limited audio codec support. Sure, the PS3 supports Doby TrueHD decoding internally, *but it lacks a big one, DTS HD.* For whatever reason, the PS3 does not support bitstream output -- no, not even TrueHD -- only PCM, and since there's no DTS HD decoder built in, *that leaves out one of the hottest new codecs*. Sure, only ~15% of Blu-ray titles even include a DTS HD sound track, *but judging by the upcoming releases from Sony, Disney, Fox, New Line and Lionsgate, we'd say this number is going to get a lot bigger. *At this point, the best option is the Panasonic DMP-BD30 and a newer HDMI 1.3a A/V...
> 
> I know, I know...who cares about a sound codec, right? Just trying to keep up with that *"quality"* thing you were talking about.
> 
> Keep in mind, that i'm getting these sources from Engadget HD...and anyone that knows them knows they are BR supporters....just incase you were wondering.


There are plans to support this in the future, but probably low on the demand scale as this is a fairly small niche market (users who have systems that support this kind of audio, discs that have it etc...) Sony is focussed on the things most people want and can use, but the rest will come in time.


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## elaclair

texaswolf said:


> considering the bashing of HD your doing...i seriously doubt it...but since you brought it up....do you own an HD player?
> 
> Now on to the ps3 (this is getting fun) being th best BR player:
> 
> *Why the PS3 isn't the best Blu-ray player*
> 
> Posted Jan 2nd 2008 10:47AM by Ben Drawbaugh (Engadget HD)
> Filed under: Blu-ray, Panasonic, Sony
> Sure, the PS3 supports Doby TrueHD decoding internally, *but it lacks a big one, DTS HD.* For whatever reason, the PS3 does not support bitstream output -- no, not even TrueHD -- only PCM, and since there's no DTS HD decoder built in, *that leaves out one of the hottest new codecs*. Sure, only ~15% of Blu-ray titles even include a DTS HD sound track, *but judging by the upcoming releases from Sony, Disney, Fox, New Line and Lionsgate, we'd say this number is going to get a lot bigger. *At this point, the best option is the Panasonic DMP-BD30 and a newer HDMI 1.3a A/V...
> 
> I know, I know...who cares about a sound codec, right? Just trying to keep up with that *"quality"* thing you were talking about.


While I certainly don't want to get lumped in with a certain Fan-Boy who shall remain nameless, the PS3 does have a hardware DTS decoder, the codec for DTS-HD should just be a software update. It IS a bit odd that they haven't already added it, unless there is some other hardware involved that's different than the standard DTS decoder. Also, the PS3 DOES support lossless PCM, which is currently the most precise codec.

Me, I'm waiting for a 2.0 compliant stand-alone......


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## Drew2k

ebaltz said:


> Sony is focussed on the things most people want and can use, but the rest will come in time.


Hmmm ... Kind of like Toshiba with HD DVD players being focused on what most people want and can use ... like 1080i output, playing all HD DVDs, and players that can upgrade themselves through their built-in ethernet ports.


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## apexmi

Not everyone is ready to jump ship..... 

http://tvshowsondvd.com/news/Site-News-More-Hi-Def-Decisions/8765

"The company cited the stellar sales of its 'Planet Earth' box set (whose HD DVD version has outsold the Blu-ray) as added reasoning behind the decision, as well as an upcoming line-up of multiple (but as yet unannounced) high-def titles it has planned for both formats in 2008."


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## phat78boy

The HD-DVD standards were the best and most user friendly from the start. Blu-Ray 2.0 will finally bring Blu-Ray to the point HD-DVD has been all this time. 

As for speculation that Blu-Ray movies didn't look good because they were converts of HD-DVD movies...thats pure garbage. The movie with full soundtracks does not eat 15 GB worth of data. That extra space on the Blu-Ray disc is just that, extra space. HD-DVD movies look better because their spec is better and their encoding practice is better(easier). No lockdowns and no security features not only helps in creating the movie discs, but also in the playback of those movies.


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## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> There are plans to support this in the future, but probably low on the demand scale as this is a fairly small niche market (users who have systems that support this kind of audio, discs that have it etc...) Sony is focussed on the things most people want and can use, but the rest will come in time.


But i thought it was all about "quality"?

If...for once, Sony was focussed on what people want....they would lower prices, and stop going overboard with the DRM.....people want simplicity, people want good prices...two things Sony has never done.


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## Stewart Vernon

I can definately respect an opinion that is different than my own... but not when it bounces around all over the place.

I personally did not choose HD DVD because of the interactivity options. I'll probably never use them (never say never 100%, but most likely not). However, it is certainly something the movie studios seem to want and some consumers seem to like the extra features, so it is a fair point to compare.

It is also fair to compare Blu ray 50GB disc capacity to HD DVD 30GB disc capacity. However, one cannot take that and automatically equate Blu ray to a better quality movie as a result. I would be very surprised if the movies released thus far on either format really need the 30GB except for because of added extras. There are some multi-disc sets and some future movies (like extended editions of Lord of the Rings trilogy movies) that could use the larger space, so that is a feature I grant you. I won't add the TL51 HD DVD into the mix until they actually begin to use them for consumers, but I won't deny their existence in testing either.

I haven't viewed any Blu ray, so I don't say with any certainty how the picture quality compares... except that my suspicion based upon reviews read by both camps seems to indicate comparable picture quality. Most times quality issues I've read about seem to be from poor clean-up work or encoding issues that have little or nothing to do with the format or size of the disc, but the process of converting the movie to digital format... which is something both camps have to get better at with time. Early DVDs weren't all shiny either, lots of poor encodes in the early DVD days too that were cleaned up with new releases years later.


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## chris0

texaswolf said:


> ...I don't think HD players have had any playback issues...which is another plus for them...


I bought an A30 and Miami Vice. MV wouldn't play past the opening credits. I took both back to the store and tried MV in a display A2 and it played just fine. I kept the copy of MV and exchanged the A30 for the A35 and had the same problem at the same spot. I waited for a FW update for the A35 and it fixed the playback issue I had with MV. Over at AVS there were similar reports with the 3rd gen Toshibas and different movies. The road for HD DVD players hasn't been perfect, either.



ebaltz said:


> There are plans to support this in the future, *but probably low on the demand scale* as this is a fairly small niche market (users who have systems that support this kind of audio, discs that have it etc...) *Sony is focussed on the things most people want* and can use, but the rest will come in time.


Over at AVS on the "PS3 as Blu-Ray Player" thread someone asks about DTS HD MA daily. It's not low on the demand scale by any measure.


----------



## chris0

elaclair said:


> While I certainly don't want to get lumped in with a certain Fan-Boy who shall remain nameless


I'm format neutral but lean Blu. Many times I'd like to post something in response to another post, but that kind of keeps me from doing it.


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## chris0

HDMe said:


> ...except that my suspicion based upon reviews read by both camps seems to indicate comparable picture quality.


I own a PS3 and an A35 and have no plans of getting rid of either player. Your suspicion is correct. It holds true for audio quality, too.


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## texaswolf

chris0 said:


> I bought an A30 and Miami Vice. MV wouldn't play past the opening credits. I took both back to the store and tried MV in a display A2 and it played just fine. I kept the copy of MV and exchanged the A30 for the A35 and had the same problem at the same spot. I waited for a FW update for the A35 and it fixed the playback issue I had with MV. Over at AVS there were similar reports with the 3rd gen Toshibas and different movies. The road for HD DVD players hasn't been perfect, either.
> 
> Over at AVS on the "PS3 as Blu-Ray Player" thread someone asks about DTS HD MA daily. It's not low on the demand scale by any measure.


gotcha, i wasn't aware that the 3rd gens were having issues...good thing is it sounds like you can fix them with an update....where the 1st gen BR people are screwed...

Hopefully we have had enough of the fan boy post with nothing to back them up:nono2:


----------



## chris0

texaswolf said:


> gotcha, i wasn't aware that the 3rd gens were having issues...good thing is it sounds like you can fix them with an update....where the 1st gen BR people are screwed...
> 
> Hopefully we have had enough of the fan boy post with nothing to back them up:nono2:


They're not all having problems. Some A35 owners report no problems. It's kind of hit and miss, which makes it even worse I think. Rental HD DVDs are a complete crap shoot if they'll play or not. The 3rd gen Toshibas seem really, really picky about the disc being in near pristine shape. Again, not all owners have that problem but many do. I called when I had problems with Miami Vice and others have called about the rental problems and Toshiba usually takes no responsibility in the matter, blaming the movie or the disc.

One great thing I can say about BR is that the extra hard coating on them seems to work really well for rentals. As far as just watching the movie goes I've never had a problem with my PS3. Not so with the A35.


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## ebaltz

chris0 said:


> Over at AVS on the "PS3 as Blu-Ray Player" thread someone asks about DTS HD MA daily. It's not low on the demand scale by any measure.


And you think that people on AVS are typical of the millions of blu-ray owners? I think not. People ask for lots of things. They focus on those that can be used by the MOST people. Literally we would be talking about maybe only 100s of users, and a few of the high tech ones probably like to post. It is very high on the demand list for a few people but definitely not even on the radar for another couple million.


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## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> But i thought it was all about "quality"?
> 
> If...for once, Sony was focussed on what people want....they would lower prices, and stop going overboard with the DRM.....people want simplicity, people want good prices...two things Sony has never done.


Yeah what a failure of a company they are. Such a shame. Can't do anything right.

So you say people want good prices...well Toshiba is trying to practically give away players and still can't catch up in sales in any category. So what does that say? What is simplicity? Apparently your opinions are not shared by the general buying public by a count of 2-1 up to 3-1. OH right, they are all stupid mind numbed Sony zombies too. I keep forgetting. And again, Sony is not the only company blu-ray (whereas Toshiba basically is). THe BDA, which consists of many many companies makes the decisions, and they have been winning decisions. Seems like Warner agrees with me. But again, you enjoy your Wal-mart and K-mart toys, I'll stick with Sony and Pioneer and the like any day. I'll also enjoy the new Blu-ray burner Dell just put in my new Quad-core. How is the HD DVD burner you have working?


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## ebaltz

phat78boy said:


> The HD-DVD standards were the best and most user friendly from the start. Blu-Ray 2.0 will finally bring Blu-Ray to the point HD-DVD has been all this time.
> 
> As for speculation that Blu-Ray movies didn't look good because they were converts of HD-DVD movies...thats pure garbage. The movie with full soundtracks does not eat 15 GB worth of data. That extra space on the Blu-Ray disc is just that, extra space. HD-DVD movies look better because their spec is better and their encoding practice is better(easier). No lockdowns and no security features not only helps in creating the movie discs, but also in the playback of those movies.


HA HA HA, I hear Jay Leno needs comedy writers, you should try out that gig.


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## Drew2k

ebaltz said:


> And you think that people on AVS are typical of the millions of blu-ray owners? I think not. People ask for lots of things. T*hey focus on those that can be used by the MOST people. *Literally we would be talking about maybe only 100s of users, and a few of the high tech ones probably like to post. It is very high on the demand list for a few people but definitely not even on the radar for another couple million.


What I bolded ... that's exactly what Toshiba did when they built the 1080i HD DVD players, they built a player that meets the needs of most people. Yet that is one of your chief reasons for citing "HD DVD sucks", because it's not 1080p. I mean, come on! :lol:


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## mridan

http://www.tvpredictions.com/hddiscsales011708.htm

Blu-ray outsold HD DVD titles last week...

Blu-ray 85%
HD DVD 15%


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## ebaltz

And...


Blu-ray discs have consistently outsold HD DVD by a 2-1 margin for the last year, but last week's numbers reflect the greatest disparity yet in the format war.
Even worse for HD DVD, Home Media Magazine writes that the top 10 high-def disc sellers were all Blu-ray. The best-selling HD DVD, The Kingdom, sold just 10 percent as many discs as the best-selling Blu-ray title, 3:10 to Yuma


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## mridan

ebaltz said:


> And...
> 
> Blu-ray discs have consistently outsold HD DVD by a 2-1 margin for the last year, but last week's numbers reflect the greatest disparity yet in the format war.
> Even worse for HD DVD, Home Media Magazine writes that the top 10 high-def disc sellers were all Blu-ray. The best-selling HD DVD, The Kingdom, sold just 10 percent as many discs as the best-selling Blu-ray title, 3:10 to Yuma


Just watched 3:10 to Yuma last night very sharp picture,and great sounding 7.1 PCM!


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## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> If...for once, Sony was focussed on what people want....they would lower prices, and stop going overboard with the DRM.....people want simplicity, people want good prices...two things Sony has never done.


I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but certainly Sony has given people plenty of products they want. (at the risk of repeating myself: The Walkman, PS1/2, co-developed the CD/CD-R, SXRD, etc) Statements like this just lump you in with the anti-Sony fanboys and bring out comments from the BD or Sony fanboys who feel they need to combat them.

I'm not a huge Sony supporter, but I don't have any major anti-Sony grudge either.


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## DawgLink

Maybe my eyes are bad but my PS3 plays my Blu-Rays perfectly it seems. Crystal clear picture.


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## Mike728

DawgLink said:


> Maybe my eyes are bad but my PS3 plays my Blu-Rays perfectly it seems. Crystal clear picture.


Ok...


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## DawgLink

Mike728 said:


> Ok...


Great


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## Mike728

DawgLink said:


> Great


I was just curious why you posted that, since no one said it didn't.


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## DawgLink

Mike728 said:


> I was just curious why you posted that, since no one said it didn't.


Nothing specific but just general.

Reading over some of the posts in the last few pages of threads (well, in my setting), a few are really going over-board in slight problems especially when it comes to dealing with the PS3's Blu-Ray capability.

If you have a PS3 and Blu-Ray movies, the high chance is you won't have any problems with it nor will you get anything but fantastic quality.

To the average person, that is all they care about


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## Drew2k

DawgLink said:


> Nothing specific but just general.
> 
> Reading over some of the posts in the last few pages of threads (well, in my setting), a few are really going over-board in slight problems especially when it comes to dealing with the PS3's Blu-Ray capability.
> 
> If you have a PS3 and Blu-Ray movies, the high chance is you won't have any problems with it nor will you get anything but fantastic quality.
> 
> To the average person, that is all they care about


I'm going to borrow your quote, DawgLink, but modify it slightly:

*"If you have a [HD-DVD player] and [HD-DVD] movies, [strike] the high chance is [/strike] you won't have any problems with it nor will you get anything but fantastic quality.

To the average person, that is all they care about"*

This isn't directed at you Dawg, but some people have a problem with recognizing that there are alternatives and allowing people to be happy with their choices. In other words, if you're happy with what you have, whether it's BD or HD, be happy and enjoy it, but why spend so much time and energey shouting "I'm better than you", when that's purely subjective and serves no purpose but to point out some potential, ahem, personal shortcomings?


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## Cholly

Agreed -- most of the folks who visit this thread have purchased either a Blu-ray Disc player or an HD DVD player, and are well satisfied with them. Both systems deliver beautiful pictures and great sound if you have the equipment (TV and audio) that can pass it along to the viewer. Be happy!

Some of the Blu-ray owners who bought first generation players are worried about Profile 1.1 or Profile 2.0, and have inability to update their player to that level, therefore being limited in either movies that they will be able to view or interactive features that they won't be able to access. So be it. That's the price one pays for being an early adopter.

Some of the HD DVD owners who bought a third generation player have found that there are several movies that they haven't been able to view. Typically, when Toshiba gets reports of problems like this, they come up with a firmware update that corrects the problem. It may take a while. Get over it.

Some of the HD DVD players won't deliver 1080p output. Big deal, they weren't designed for 1080p (don't have 1080p decoders). So What? They do an excellent job with 1080i and 720p. There are very few people who own 1080p TV receivers, and fewer still who will note any difference between 1080p and the other two formats.

Let's stop beating each other over the head. We are hopefully all out of elementary school, and should not be resorting to arguing over whose DVD player is best. Enjoy what you have.


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## Stuart Sweet

Well said.


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## GrumpyBear

bobukcat said:


> I understand your point but think that it may be slightly misleading - even if the player won't upgrade to profile 2.X - that doesn't necessarily mean it won't still play every BD title released in the future (it may not, but we have no evidence to that effect). It may not play certain special "interactive" features (yawn IMO) as you said but that would not make it "just as useful as an HD-DVD player IF, indeed, BD does win the war and HD-DVDs are no longer produced by the major studios. (please note I said "IF" before anyone decides to "flame-on")


I agree with you, lots of the "NEW" features, that BR has put in for Profile1.1 and into Profile2.0, and most already included in HD-DVD, were they are cool, I doubt many will use them. They just want to watch a good movie. My only point is on the fact that the Flameboy's keep pumping out that ALL BR players are upgradable, they aren't, firmware fix, so it can play a movie, is not a Feature Upgrade or a Profile upgrade. They may never want to use the features, but they are buying machines thinking that they will be able to get those features down the Road. I doubt that a BR movie wont play on a profile 1.0(GracePeriod) player, anytime soon.

Now here comes Disney(insert any studio) releasing a BR movie that was locked away in the Vault on, VHS and DVD, to never be released again, with really cool features that they pump up for the kids. Parents by the Movie and BAM, all those cool interactive features wont work. Kind of a let down. Also one of the main reason's I didn't buy a BR player myself, was the the GracePeriod Profile. Working for a company that has a regular EOL cycle for machines, and how it ends support, and all companies do it, they just do. GracePeriod Profile, sounded like a short term device. 1.1 profile looks like a much longer life product, and 2.0 Products will be longer yet, just with what they are asking to be in the Profile. Only 1 BR player will do this, and thats a Gamebox/BR player, made and controlled by 1 company only, which was the complaint some had about HD-DVD, only Toshiba was making them. 
So people who bought HD-DVD players vs BR players haven't lost anything, in all this, down the road, they will always be able to watch thier HD movies, spent less in the opening rounds, and can buy if necessary a BR player down the road that will have all the same features, of their HD players, and will be Profile upgradable as well. Those who bought a BR player, that isn't a gamebox, will also have to upgrade as well within the same tech family, to get those same features, even with all the Boast's about BD-java.
Who knows what DRM(and this will come from the studio's as much as anybody else) that will be needed down the road. Graceperiod is just that, and I wouldn't count on a Graceperiod item having a long time before EOL, and future support, just like the HD-DVD guys will have if BR wins out


----------



## Carl Spock

*Shocking News! Money may have changed hands in Warners decision to back Blu-ray.*

Yeah, right. 

_From the Dark Horizon's website comes this story:_



> *Warner, Fox Blu-Ray Bribery?*
> 
> By Garth Franklin
> Tuesday January 15th 2008 12:38am
> 
> Think the fallout from the Warner Bros. Blu-Ray defection has settled down yet? Think again.
> 
> ...Fox was apparently lined up, and told the HD DVD camp it was going to switch to HD DVD, but nixed the deal at the last possible minute as Fox apparently received a reported $US120 million payout from Sony to stay Blu-ray.
> 
> Warner then switched and apparently received between $US400 and $500 million for its defection. WHV home video reps have denied claims of a payout, but right up til their defection last week they repeatedly denied any plans to change either - rendering their credibility dubious at this point.
> 
> ...


original Dark Horizons story

Edit: (Tom Robertson) For reasons of protecting the original copyright holder for the story, the quoted section has been reduced to a few key paragraphs. Please read the original story for more information.


----------



## phat78boy

GrumpyBear said:


> I agree with you, lots of the "NEW" features, that BR has put in for Profile1.1 and into Profile2.0, and most already included in HD-DVD, were they are cool, I doubt many will use them. They just want to watch a good movie. My only point is on the fact that the Flameboy's keep pumping out that ALL BR players are upgradable, they aren't, firmware fix, so it can play a movie, is not a Feature Upgrade or a Profile upgrade. They may never want to use the features, but they are buying machines thinking that they will be able to get those features down the Road. I doubt that a BR movie wont play on a profile 1.0(GracePeriod) player, anytime soon.
> 
> Now here comes Disney(insert any studio) releasing a BR movie that was locked away in the Vault on, VHS and DVD, to never be released again, with really cool features that they pump up for the kids. Parents by the Movie and BAM, all those cool interactive features wont work. Kind of a let down. Also one of the main reason's I didn't buy a BR player myself, was the the GracePeriod Profile. Working for a company that has a regular EOL cycle for machines, and how it ends support, and all companies do it, they just do. GracePeriod Profile, sounded like a short term device. 1.1 profile looks like a much longer life product, and 2.0 Products will be longer yet, just with what they are asking to be in the Profile. Only 1 BR player will do this, and thats a Gamebox/BR player, made and controlled by 1 company only, which was the complaint some had about HD-DVD, only Toshiba was making them.
> So people who bought HD-DVD players vs BR players haven't lost anything, in all this, down the road, they will always be able to watch thier HD movies, spent less in the opening rounds, and can buy if necessary a BR player down the road that will have all the same features, of their HD players, and will be Profile upgradable as well. Those who bought a BR player, that isn't a gamebox, will also have to upgrade as well within the same tech family, to get those same features, even with all the Boast's about BD-java.
> Who knows what DRM(and this will come from the studio's as much as anybody else) that will be needed down the road. Graceperiod is just that, and I wouldn't count on a Graceperiod item having a long time before EOL, and future support, just like the HD-DVD guys will have if BR wins out


If they weren't important they wouldn't be scrambling to include them. Just my take on the situation.


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## bobukcat

Carl Spock said:


> *Shocking News! Money may have changed hands in Warners decision to back Blu-ray.*
> 
> Yeah, right.
> 
> _From the Dark Horizon's website comes this story:_
> 
> original Dark Horizons story
> 
> Edit: (Tom Robertson) For reasons of protecting the original copyright holder for the story, the quoted section has been reduced to a few key paragraphs. Please read the original story for more information.


What, $$$ may have been behind the decision???? Say it isn't so!!! 

Interesting that they have removed reference to Fox and payouts after Fox's lawyers apparently contacted them about the story.

On a completely different note, a statement by one of the Warner folks caught my attention (sorry I can't find it again), it was to the effect that they weren't releasing some new HD-DVD releases the same day as the SD DVD because of the lack of regional encoding, and that was not an issue with BD. Presumably they weren't releasing them the same day because they weren't releasing that day elsewhere in the world and they don't want people buying them from outside their region before they are supposed to. I'll never understand exactly why this is so important to them, but I guess it is, and may have been just one more small piece of the decision for their change. I'm sure everyone will say the regional encoding is anti-consumer, and I won't argue that but will say that most (all??) SD DVDs are encoded so it's something we've had to live with already.


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## BlueSnake

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I also have a long but distinguished list of objections to Sony and Blu Ray, but I don't believe it takes your kind of last personal statement to make *any* point on this subject.
> 
> Even though it was directed to someone else I don't even know myself, I was offended.
> 
> Hopefully, we can keep the comments and focus on the merits of one format in comparison to the other in this thread, otherwise, I could envision the Mods ending this dialog very quickly.


Thanks for the support, but I wasn't going to stoop to his level by responding to his post. It's really a shame that someone can't discuss these issues with throwing around personal insults.

I was offended as well, but did not want to dignify his post with a response.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

You know with all these payouts, makes you wonder if Sony will ever make any money on this product.


----------



## bobukcat

BlueSnake said:


> Thanks for the support, but I wasn't going to stoop to his level by responding to his post. It's really a shame that someone can't discuss these issues with throwing around personal insults.
> 
> I was offended as well, but did not want to dignify his post with a response.


Thanks for taking the high road, I'm sure this thread has teetered on the edge of being closed several times and I don't want to see that happen as I find it (well, most of the posts anyway) interesting and I like to hear experiences from other users of both formats, provided they are constructive, of course.


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> You know with all these payouts, makes you wonder if Sony will ever make any money on this product.


Of course, Toshiba/Microsoft weren't exactly sitting on the sidelines...they've been tossing dollars around for a while as well.....Paramount and Universal come to mind.....


----------



## Cholly

The Paramount/Universal payoffs have never been confirmed. It's been alleged that they got as much as $150 million, and supposedly that was actually in advertising support. No one in a position to know has either confirmed or denied these reports (not surprising).
If the allegations of payoffs to Warner and Fox are true, then the Toshiba payofffs are chicken feed by comparison.
Kinda like the primary election battles, don't you think?:kickbutt:


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I don't know why some people react the way they do about these financial incentives. Our state and city government officials give companies tax breaks and other incentives to build a factory or a building... and the taxpayers end up paying that, obviously... Financial incentives are a part of business and happen at pretty much every level to one degree or another.

If I run a book store and I talk to a local toy store, and I tell them I will send customers their way who buy books from me that I know have toy items... and the toy store agrees to send book customers my way... we are cross-promoting each other. If the cross-promotion is not entirely equal, one of us may agree to put up flyers to advertise the other store or something... and the unequal effort is in essence an incentive at that point.

That said, I am disappointed in some of the results of these financial incentives, and that companies try to deny them... but I recognize it is a part of business. Also, if a company takes a financial incentive to switch to a side that is actually not in the customer's best interest... those things usually come around and bite them eventually.


----------



## bobukcat

Cholly said:


> The Paramount/Universal payoffs have never been confirmed. It's been alleged that they got as much as $150 million, and supposedly that was actually in advertising support. No one in a position to know has either confirmed or denied these reports (not surprising).
> If the allegations of payoffs to Warner and Fox are true, then the Toshiba payofffs are chicken feed by comparison.
> Kinda like the primary election battles, don't you think?:kickbutt:


I don't think ANY of them have ever been confirmed - no one in a sufficient position to confirm such an incentive payment ("payoff" implies illegalities to me, and these would not be illegal if they did occur) would ever do so, therefore we are all left with speculation and rumors. The fact the author of the story that was quoted in the link pulled all mention of a payment to Fox from his blog makes me believe he didn't have a credible enough source, or at least one willing to do it publicly, for the story.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Yeah what a failure of a company they are. Such a shame. Can't do anything right.
> 
> So you say people want good prices...well Toshiba is trying to practically give away players and still can't catch up in sales in any category. So what does that say? What is simplicity? Apparently your opinions are not shared by the general buying public by a count of 2-1 up to 3-1. OH right, they are all stupid mind numbed Sony zombies too. I keep forgetting. And again, Sony is not the only company blu-ray (whereas Toshiba basically is). THe BDA, which consists of many many companies makes the decisions, and they have been winning decisions. Seems like Warner agrees with me. But again, you enjoy your Wal-mart and K-mart toys, I'll stick with Sony and Pioneer and the like any day. I'll also enjoy the new Blu-ray burner Dell just put in my new Quad-core. How is the HD DVD burner you have working?


In my post you quoted, i never said they were a failure. As we have been over many times, HD stand alone sales are better than BR....thats stand alone...not the ps3...since there is no accurate way to count it...regardless BR is still outselling in the movie area. Why do you think BR rushed out players, that have had issues?

Once again you bring up the Wal-mart/K-mart thing...i think you have some kind of a grudge with them? SO explain to me how your PS3 is better than one bought at a wal-mart, again? You may want to take off the blinders and look deeper...this whole war is not ALL about "better format" it's about business, upfront and behind doors...Fox was considering going HD, then stays Blu....rumor had it that WB was considering it also...but went Blu...there is more money and business deals going on behind closed doors than just "quality" and sales.

Man that new BR burner in your quad core sounds awesome!! um...but you wouldn't by chance be using that burner to....violate any DRM laws...right? I mean that is a major concern of the BRA....and I know how fond you are of the Sony corp...nah you wouldn't do that...would ya?

I don't plan on buying an HD burner really...i used to burn dvds all the time, but since E* got the external option, i record the HD movies onto my EHD...anything thats a must see in BR or HD...i buy the disc. Since the drop in picture/sound quality on a copy would make it pointless to have on HD/BR


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but certainly Sony has given people plenty of products they want. (at the risk of repeating myself: The Walkman, PS1/2, co-developed the CD/CD-R, SXRD, etc) Statements like this just lump you in with the anti-Sony fanboys and bring out comments from the BD or Sony fanboys who feel they need to combat them.
> 
> I'm not a huge Sony supporter, but I don't have any major anti-Sony grudge either.


you misread my post...i was responding to a claim of what "the people" want. Which I consider the general public...they/we want simplicity (no profile issues, or DRM tactics), and cheaper prices...i wasn't talking about Sony not coming out with good products, if you look at my sig, i have 2 of them (on sale of course). I was simply saying that they go overboard on DRM protection and overprice a lot of their products. This is all in response to someone who thinks that if you pay top dollar for a product, it makes it better.


----------



## Steve Mehs

For the HD DVD fan boys that bring up the international market, while this isn't China or the EU, Blu Ray is completely dominating in Japan.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/080118/19/15kl9.html


----------



## texaswolf

yeah i wouldn't think that Sony having a lot of pull in Japan isn't a surprise. I wonder what the cost difference is there...compared to prices here? I imagine they get a much better price range over there. I see some people selling the "Japanese" version of the ps3 here, claiming they are region free? Thats a nice bonus if so.


----------



## machavez00

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9852668-1.html?tag=cnetfd.mt


> Can anything save HD DVD?
> 
> * Ian Morris
> * 28 comments
> 
> (Credit: Crave UK)
> 
> HD DVD is almost certainly dead in the water. The surprise move of Warner to move to exclusive Blu-ray support has sunk any hope the HD DVD group ever had for winning the format war. What's more, there are rumors that the last two HD DVD studios--Paramount and Universal--are both planning a similar defection. So, can anything save the format now?


----------



## texaswolf

machavez00 said:


> http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9852668-1.html?tag=cnetfd.mt


WOW...i'm surprised that that kind of an article came out of such a neutral site

i almost never see them talking good about BR or Mac:lol:

In reality, whats going to be interesting is the lowering of prices by Toshiba. I was listening in on a work conversation, where a few people had just bought HD players, and were telling some others about the price drops...this group was regular joes...and not HD junkies like us....if this kinda of trend is mirrored a lot....HD player sales could make a big leap...and maybe call the bluff of studios concerned about "what the consumer wants".

How much longer _will_ Disney and FOX keep wasting millions upon millions on a failed protection, before they get sick of it...i know the guys at AnyDVD are having a blast cracking it:lol:

I'm hoping this war keeps going until BR learns to drop it's prices...that way....*WE*....the consumers win....not big corporations


----------



## Stewart Vernon

All things considered, there's actually no real reason for HD DVD to ever die, at least until DVD media itself dies.

Think about it... With recent price drops by Toshiba, their entry level HD DVD player, which also upscales regular DVDs, is almost as cheap as their upscaling only players... It would actually make sense for Toshiba to compete with the upscaling DVD players to help get HD DVD in homes.

At some point then there becomes no real reason to buy an upscaling player only... meanwhile, if the HD DVD exclusive companies would start making combo discs instead of separate runs for DVD and HD DVD... and stop DVD manufacturing... then prices of the combos could be within a few dollars and the same disc would be for sale to everyone. No more format confusion, and lower prices on HD DVD media at the same time.

This has been discussed in other places... and frankly is what should have happened from the beginning... but it wouldn't be too late to implement now. The money has already been spent on the technology, so no reason to bail on it without at least trying to go this direction.

Even IF Blu ray gets the win in the end... there's no reason why HD DVD can't technically stick around.


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> I'm hoping this war keeps going until BR learns to drop it's prices...that way....*WE*....the consumers win....not big corporations


I've said it before and I'll say it again, the longer the war continues the more likely it is neither format will become mainstream and then early adopters on both sides will lose. A high percentage of consumers will never buy either one of these formats as long as their player will only play certain movies and a LOT of other titles they want are not available for them. Once the format war is over and people buy in quantities the effect of mass-manufacturing will drive the prices down consistently, just like they did with DVDs - I paid over $300 for my first DVD player, and it was really not that long ago in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> All things considered, there's actually no real reason for HD DVD to ever die, at least until DVD media itself dies.
> 
> Think about it... With recent price drops by Toshiba, their entry level HD DVD player, which also upscales regular DVDs, is almost as cheap as their upscaling only players... It would actually make sense for Toshiba to compete with the upscaling DVD players to help get HD DVD in homes.
> 
> At some point then there becomes no real reason to buy an upscaling player only... meanwhile, if the HD DVD exclusive companies would start making combo discs instead of separate runs for DVD and HD DVD... and stop DVD manufacturing... then prices of the combos could be within a few dollars and the same disc would be for sale to everyone. No more format confusion, and lower prices on HD DVD media at the same time.
> 
> This has been discussed in other places... and frankly is what should have happened from the beginning... but it wouldn't be too late to implement now. The money has already been spent on the technology, so no reason to bail on it without at least trying to go this direction.
> 
> Even IF Blu ray gets the win in the end... there's no reason why HD DVD can't technically stick around.


There may not be a reason they couldn't keep making the players but there are definitely reasons for the media to die - if sales are not high enough to justify the production of a another format (this would be assuming BD does really win and all major studios begin BD production). If that did happen I'm sure the players would cease to be produced too as I can't believe that they aren't losing money on them at the price they are currently selling, so why keep doing it if your chances of taking the format mainstream are too remote?


----------



## RAD

HDMe said:


> All things considered, there's actually no real reason for HD DVD to ever die, at least until DVD media itself dies.
> 
> Think about it... With recent price drops by Toshiba, their entry level HD DVD player, which also upscales regular DVDs, is almost as cheap as their upscaling only players... It would actually make sense for Toshiba to compete with the upscaling DVD players to help get HD DVD in homes.


Only would make sense if the profit margin (if they're actually making any profit at all) would allow for this. Just getting a player into the home that can play HD DVD media doesn't matter if the content that people want to watch isn't playable due to being in a different standard.


----------



## ccr1958

i finally cracked....couldn't take all this talk anymore....
broke down & bought a 40gig PS3...so now i have both....
at this point i will suggest a PS3 for BR movies...very easy
hook up & the ability to play games also...PQ seems the same thus far
but i have only watched 1 BR movie....


----------



## Pink Fairy

Woo! PS3 is teh awesomeness!


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, the longer the war continues the more likely it is neither format will become mainstream and then early adopters on both sides will lose. A high percentage of consumers will never buy either one of these formats as long as their player will only play certain movies and a LOT of other titles they want are not available for them. Once the format war is over and people buy in quantities the effect of mass-manufacturing will drive the prices down consistently, just like they did with DVDs - I paid over $300 for my first DVD player, and it was really not that long ago in the grand scheme of things.


I wouldn't count on BR prices dropping...they will continue to waste money on the protection, which will keep cost up....plus it's not Sony's style...look at how they Wii is stomping a mudhole in the ps3 and 360...and is cheaper...and harder to buy....add that to the HD dropped prices...and you cant find a better reason for them to lower prices...but they wont.

i'm interested in seeing what happens with the ps3 if the war does drag out longer...it's the best selling BR player, but is seriously losing Sony money...how long can they keep up the bleeding of dough, and the bleeding of sales to Wii and the 360? glad i got mine when i did

but regardeless like i said earlier...average joes are going to scoop up the sale..and HDdvd is providing the sales...don't think studios wont be keeping an eye on that. Paying for busted protection will get old soon enough too.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Got Planet Earth HD DVD last night. I will do a full review when I am finished watching but I will say the quality is a lot, lot better than DiscoveryHD if you can believe it. The upside of that is it's incredibly clear. The downside is it loses a little bit of that "painterly" quality I saw when I watched it over satellite.


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> I wouldn't count on BR prices dropping...they will continue to waste money on the protection, which will keep cost up....plus it's not Sony's style...look at how they Wii is stomping a mudhole in the ps3 and 360...and is cheaper...and harder to buy....add that to the HD dropped prices...and you cant find a better reason for them to lower prices...but they wont.
> 
> but regardeless like i said earlier...average joes are going to scoop up the sale..and HDdvd is providing the sales...don't think studios wont be keeping an eye on that. Paying for busted protection will get old soon enough too.


Ninetendo took a completely different approach to "next gen" gaming with the Wii and DS and it's been a big hit, but for hard-core gamers the 360 and PS3 are still the choice because of GREATLY superior graphics. Those capabilities come at a price though and I'm guessing Nintendo makes $100 on every Wii where Sony probably loses $50 on every PS3, that's why they don't drop the price more. They have come down in price some, and adding the model with the small HD, no WiFi, etc. at $399 HAS improved sales. At this point I think the lack of titles for it is probably more of a detriment to sales than it's price. (Completely OT: if you haven't seen it you need to play Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, the graphics are INCREDIBLE!! There is a free demo you can d/l from the PS Store.)

I won't argue that some average consumers will buy the HDDVD players at fire sale prices, but I do contend that a large percentage that do will not buy any/many HD-DVD disks for them (they may rent them) because they don't want to be "stuck" with movies you can't buy a new player for in 18 months. Regardless of all this, I don't think it will persuad any of the BD exclusive studios to change, not as long as media sales of BD continue to dominate those of HDDVD, they don't care about players, only media!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Got Planet Earth HD DVD last night. I will do a full review when I am finished watching but I will say the quality is a lot, lot better than DiscoveryHD if you can believe it. The upside of that is it's incredibly clear. The downside is it loses a little bit of that "painterly" quality I saw when I watched it over satellite.


That was one of my first HD DVD's.

It is indeed nature's eye candy.


----------



## bobukcat

There have been a lot of comments about disk capacity not really being an issue between the formats as most seem to think that a movie plus extras isn't really going to need more than 25 GB or so. I bring this up because I noticed that at least 80% of the movies released on BD are using the BD50, not the 25 (at least according to Blu-Ray.com) so I'm curious, what capacity disk are most HD-DVDs movies are on?? I guess if you have a BD drive you could take one of these movies and see how much space it's using on the disk, has anyone here done this?

I'm just curious why they would be using the (assumingly higher-priced) 50 GB version if the movies doesn't need more than 25 GB of space.


----------



## Drew2k

BluRay discs are "Buy 2 get 1 Free" on select $24.99 titles at Circuit City this week. 

Anyone know of any good HD-DVD sales this week?


----------



## jutley

Drew2k said:


> BluRay discs are "Buy 2 get 1 Free" on select $24.99 titles at Circuit City this week.
> 
> Anyone know of any good HD-DVD sales this week?


Drew...I don't know of any sales per se, but I have been picking up quite a few HD-DVDs on eBay the past few weeks for $15 or less and many for under $10. Lots of people are unloading their collections and I for one am happy for that.


----------



## jutley

Stuart Sweet said:


> Got Planet Earth HD DVD last night. I will do a full review when I am finished watching but I will say the quality is a lot, lot better than DiscoveryHD if you can believe it. The upside of that is it's incredibly clear. The downside is it loses a little bit of that "painterly" quality I saw when I watched it over satellite.


Just got this last week and I too am amazed at the picture quality. I highly recommend it.


----------



## Drew2k

jutley said:


> Drew...I don't know of any sales per se, but I have been picking up quite a few HD-DVDs on eBay the past few weeks for $15 or less and many for under $10. Lots of people are unloading their collections and I for one am happy for that.


I don't think I've ever purchased a "used" DVD, so I'd be a little leary of this, but I may look into it since the prices seem right!


----------



## waynebtx

Have both Blu and Hd The hda30 seems to do a better job upconverting my DVDs then the PS3.


----------



## jutley

Drew2k said:


> I don't think I've ever purchased a "used" DVD, so I'd be a little leary of this, but I may look into it since the prices seem right!


I know just what you mean. About half of the titles I have picked up from eBay have been new in the shrink wrap. The rest have been used and sold by reputable sellers. I always try to watch the used movies within a few days of receiving them to make sure they work. Good luck!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Drew2k said:


> BluRay discs are "Buy 2 get 1 Free" on select $24.99 titles at Circuit City this week.
> 
> Anyone know of any good HD-DVD sales this week?


Amazon can always be counted on...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht..._rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=359057401&pf_rd_i=193642011


----------



## Drew2k

Thanks, Stuart! Those are great prices.


----------



## jutley

Stuart Sweet said:


> Amazon can always be counted on...
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht..._rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=359057401&pf_rd_i=193642011


Thanks Shadow!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

bobukcat said:


> There have been a lot of comments about disk capacity not really being an issue between the formats as most seem to think that a movie plus extras isn't really going to need more than 25 GB or so. I bring this up because I noticed that at least 80% of the movies released on BD are using the BD50, not the 25 (at least according to Blu-Ray.com) so I'm curious, what capacity disk are most HD-DVDs movies are on?? I guess if you have a BD drive you could take one of these movies and see how much space it's using on the disk, has anyone here done this?
> 
> I'm just curious why they would be using the (assumingly higher-priced) 50 GB version if the movies doesn't need more than 25 GB of space.


Most of my HD DVDs are HD30 discs... but I have at least one HD15 (Timecop). Timecop has no extras on it except for the movie trailer. Granted it is not a primo-reference-quality movie, but clearly a case where it fit on HD15 so they decided not to spend the extra cost for HD30... and the movie MSRP was $19.95 from day one so they passed the savings along.

Transformers on HD DVD is my only 2-disc movie, and it seems to be broken down pretty much like the SD DVD was in the 2-disc edition, with the bulk of the extras being on the 2nd disc.

I have no Blu ray to compare... but if many HD DVDs needed to use 25GB for the movie plus some extras, then it stands to reason Blu ray releases of similar movies would be right on that border of needing some more space... and if most of the movies are on BD50 then production costs might come down a bit.

I know if I was releasing something that was right on the edge... I'd spring for the higher capacity and then go for broke with extras rather than trying to cram on the lower capacity option. I can only assume that is what has happened with HD DVD and Blu ray releases... when in doubt, go ahead and go for the higher capacity and if there is some unused space, so be it.

Something similar happened with CDs on computer software in the early days... There was a crossover point where it was simpler to go ahead and put 50MB on a 650MB capacity CD than to include more than a dozen floppy diskettes in the package... so it seemed wasteful to have a mostly "empty" CD in the box, but it made more sense.

Given the capacity differences between Blu ray and HD DVD... I would expect most HD DVD movie releases to be almost full at around 20-30GB... but similar encodes of similar movies on a Blu ray disc would leave another 15-20GB "free" space.

Where Blu ray has the most advantage would be if Lord of the Rings extended editions OR a classic like Ten Commandments were released. Blu ray could fit the whole movie on one disc rather than having to span 2 like the DVD editions. HD DVD would need the TL51 disc to release and work in order to do the same thing. But, those really are the rare exceptions when you consider the vast library of studio movies... so unless/until those movies come out, the capacity discussion isn't as important as it sometimes seems to be for movies.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I see Universal strongly reaffirmed their commitment to HD DVD yesterday.

Word has it that Warner got over 1200 letters of complaint over their decision for Blu Ray exclusive and there's a petition of complaint that will be going to them with over 10,000 signatures.

Add this into the fact that while many Blu Ray players are about to become semi-obsollete for v1.1 standards, and HD DVD players are flying off the shelves at the recently- reduced prices, and 1 Million HD DVD owners will be hard to ignore forever.

In my visit to BB yesterday, I actually saw a greater selection displayed for HD DVD than Blu Ray movies, and the Blu ray stock looked almost untouched, whereas the HD DVD stock clearly was selling well. In talking with the store manager, he told me his store actually has sold more HD DVD disks overall since last Thanksgiving.

Warner must have blinders on.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Just more proof that it's not over. I personally signed the petition you refer to (a reminder, forum rules don't allow us to link to petitions) and while I understand the economics involved, I'm beginning to wonder why there isn't a market for both, or why a higher-priced player is better than a lower-priced one.


----------



## ShawnL25

March 10 Paramount will again begin publishing Blu-ray titles, begining with the already released Trading Places, Coming to America, and the previously unreleased Anchorman. I do not believe that 6,000+ people on an online petition will sway Warners decision. The best thing for every High Def consumer to do is to go blu-ray in force and start the real war Blu-ray vs. DVD.


----------



## elaclair

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I see Universal strongly reaffirmed their commitment to HD DVD yesterday.
> 
> Word has it that Warner got over 1200 letters of complaint over their decision for Blu Ray exclusive and there's a petition of complaint that will be going to them with over 10,000 signatures.
> 
> Add this into the fact that while many Blu Ray players are about to become semi-obsollete for v1.1 standards, and HD DVD players are flying off the shelves at the recently- reduced prices, and 1 Million HD DVD owners will be hard to ignore forever.
> 
> In my visit to BB yesterday, I actually saw a greater selection displayed for HD DVD than Blu Ray movies, and the Blu ray stock looked almost untouched, whereas the HD DVD stock clearly was selling well. In talking with the store manager, he told me his store actually has sold more HD DVD disks overall since last Thanksgiving.
> 
> Warner must have blinders on.


From Graffeo's Interview: Among the comments Graffeo makes, he says that in the wake of Warner's decision to drop HD-DVD, retailers *"want to wait for what the consumer does. We've always said we want to follow the consumer."* He later adds, *"Where the consumer has a say is what they do and what they purchase. That's probably the biggest statement that could be made."* And once more, near the end of the piece: *"I think anything is possible, and again it comes back to the consumer who has the final voice."*

Yup, really resounding support...NOT. And if you look at the latest sales figures as reported by NPD...

First up, let's look at the month of December (weeks ending 12/8 to 12/29), along with the first two weeks of January (weeks ending 1/5 and 1/12)...

NPD - High-Def Hardware Sales

Blu-ray Disc players outsold HD-DVD players in the month of December here in the States by about a 60/40 margin, and that split has grown to 70/30 in favor of Blu-ray in the first half of January. This despite the fact that HD-DVD players were (on average) some $200 cheaper than Blu-ray players throughout the holiday shopping season.

But the most striking revelation in the data is the change in the hardware sales ratios between the first and second weeks of January (ending 1/5 and 1/12), reflecting the impact of Warner's announcement (and the mainstream media reaction).

Market Share ---Standalone players (does not include PS3 or Xbox add-on)
Weeks Ending 12/8 -12/29 ---- 60.19% blu / 39.81 % HD-DVD
Weeks Ending 1/5 - 1/12 ------ 69.41 % blu / 30.59 % HD-DVD

NPD - High-Def Hardware Sales

HD-DVD player sales dropped dramatically in the week after Warner's announcement, while Blu-ray Disc player sales nearly doubled over the same period.

Hardware Sales -- Standalone players (does not inclue PS3 or Xbox add-on)

Week Ending 1/5 ----- 51.17% blu / 48.83 % HD-DVD
Week Ending 1/12 ----92.53 % blu / 7.47 % HD-DVD

If Graffeo actually follows through with his remarks, and looking at the sales data, is there any way that Universal will not go at the very least, format neutral, in the near future?


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I see Universal strongly reaffirmed their commitment to HD DVD yesterday.
> 
> Word has it that Warner got over 1200 letters of complaint over their decision for Blu Ray exclusive and there's a petition of complaint that will be going to them with over 10,000 signatures.
> 
> Add this into the fact that while many Blu Ray players are about to become semi-obsollete for v1.1 standards, and HD DVD players are flying off the shelves at the recently- reduced prices, and 1 Million HD DVD owners will be hard to ignore forever.


I wonder how many letters / e-mails/ calls of complaint Universal received when they went HD-DVD exclusive? I can't find any evidence but I would suspect it was similar.

1 Million HD-DVD owners hard to ignore? I doubt it - I'm sure the number of BetaMax owners was at least triple (probably more like 100 x) that when studios stopped producing movies on Beta. 1 M is a tiny drop in the bucket (which is also what the entire HD Disk market still is) to these people.


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> I have no Blu ray to compare... but if many HD DVDs needed to use 25GB for the movie plus some extras, then it stands to reason Blu ray releases of similar movies would be right on that border of needing some more space... and if most of the movies are on BD50 then production costs might come down a bit.
> 
> I know if I was releasing something that was right on the edge... I'd spring for the higher capacity and then go for broke with extras rather than trying to cram on the lower capacity option. I can only assume that is what has happened with HD DVD and Blu ray releases... when in doubt, go ahead and go for the higher capacity and if there is some unused space, so be it.


My library of BDs is still small, so I was getting most of my numbers from Blu-Ray.com. Ironically the only two-disk movie I have is MI:3 (a pre-exclusive Paramount Release) and it's on 2 BD25s, this may have been before the BD50 was "mainstream", I don't know - but all the extras are on a second disk. In contrast Spidy 2 has both the theatrical and the "2.1" version on the same BD 50 disk. If you've not seen it there are a lot of extra / longer scenes in the 2.1 version - I'm not sure that makes it better, but it's certainly longer.


----------



## elaclair

bobukcat said:


> My library of BDs is still small, so I was getting most of my numbers from Blu-Ray.com. Ironically the only two-disk movie I have is MI:3 (a pre-exclusive Paramount Release) and it's on 2 BD25s, this may have been before the BD50 was "mainstream", I don't know - but all the extras are on a second disk. In contrast Spidy 2 has both the theatrical and the "2.1" version on the same BD 50 disk. If you've not seen it there are a lot of extra / longer scenes in the 2.1 version - I'm not sure that makes it better, but it's certainly longer.


With the ability to do seamless branching, having the "original" and the "2.1" version on the same disc would not necessarily mean twice the required space. It would only increase for the "differences" and the small amount of housekeeping space needed for the branching.


----------



## texaswolf

ShawnL25 said:


> March 10 Paramount will again begin publishing Blu-ray titles, begining with the already released Trading Places, Coming to America, and the previously unreleased Anchorman. I do not believe that 6,000+ people on an online petition will sway Warners decision. The best thing for every High Def consumer to do is to go blu-ray in force and start the real war Blu-ray vs. DVD.


So you want everyone forced to go HD? not everyone wants to dump their DVD players....and pay $400 to enjoy movies...i don't know why fanboys want higher prices and no choice...just don't get it.


----------



## Sirshagg

This has all been rather amusing to watch. What *I* don't understand is why people get so worked up on one side or the other.

Full disclosure: I own neither format


----------



## bobukcat

elaclair said:


> With the ability to do seamless branching, having the "original" and the "2.1" version on the same disc would not necessarily mean twice the required space. It would only increase for the "differences" and the small amount of housekeeping space needed for the branching.


Good point, I never thought of it that way.


----------



## ShawnL25

texaswolf said:


> So you want everyone forced to go HD? not everyone wants to dump their DVD players....and pay $400 to enjoy movies...i don't know why fanboys want higher prices and no choice...just don't get it.


"The best thing for every High Def consumer to do" 
My exact words, I am not a Fan boy if Warner and Fox had gone HD DVD I would have posted the same thing for them. Blu-ray clearly now has the advantage so we as consumers should throw our full support behind it leaving the remaining studios no choice but to come on board due to demand. The best solution for all formats is an end to the "war" and confusion. Once Blu-ray is the Hidef standard they can begin the true battle of converting mainstream DVD consumers to Blu-ray. I believe that with wider adoption the prices will fall and the technology will improve. DVD's aren't going anywhere for a long time but yes much like the switch from VHS to DVD I would like to see a ten year migration to a Hidef optical solution (Blu-ray). If you don't want to upgrade your sound and picture quality then don't. I made a call to arms for all High Def consumers, not dvd guy who doesn't care about watching his movies in the best way possible. I find the use of the term fanboy highly offensive don't call me that again. I am just an intelligent, well informed consumer.


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> Ninetendo took a completely different approach to "next gen" gaming with the Wii and DS and it's been a big hit, but for hard-core gamers the 360 and PS3 are still the choice because of GREATLY superior graphics. Those capabilities come at a price though and I'm guessing Nintendo makes $100 on every Wii *where Sony probably loses $50 on every PS3, that's why they don't drop the price more*. They have come down in price some, and adding the model with the small HD, no WiFi, etc. at $399 HAS improved sales. At this point I think the lack of titles for it is probably more of a detriment to sales than it's price. (Completely OT: if you haven't seen it you need to play Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, the graphics are INCREDIBLE!! There is a free demo you can d/l from the PS Store.)
> 
> I won't argue that some average consumers will buy the HDDVD players at fire sale prices, but I do contend that a large percentage that do will not buy any/many HD-DVD disks for them (they may rent them) because they don't want to be "stuck" with movies you can't buy a new player for in 18 months. Regardless of all this, I don't think it will persuad any of the BD exclusive studios to change, not as long as media sales of BD continue to dominate those of HDDVD, they don't care about players, only media!


$50?? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought losing A LOT more than that.



> Sony losing mad loot on each PS3
> 
> Posted Nov 16th 2006 4:52PM by Paul Miller
> Filed under: Gaming
> We all knew Sony was dropping a fair bit of cash on each PS3 sold, but we suppose we got a bit too hung up on the resultant pricetags -- the notorious $499 and $599 SKUs -- to give the actual losses much of a thought. Well, worry not Sony, iSuppli's got your back. Turns out Sony will be losing change to the tune of $241.35 for every "premium" (WiFi and 60GB HDD) console, and a whoppin' $306.85 for the bargain-basement 20 gigger. In comparison, Microsoft loses $75.70 per 360 it sells, while Nintendo is laughing all the way to the bank with a profit per Wii sold. Just in case you missed it the first time around, or fell off your chair and forgot what you were reading about: Sony will lose the equivalent (or more) to the retail price of a competing console every time a cash register rings up a PS3 sale this holiday. We suppose it's for the best, then, that Sony won't have a whole lot of 'em to hand out, since we're sure Sony's own costs will start to drop as production really ramps up next year. Be sure to peep the read link for a full breakdown of the costs.


That was when it was a newer launch....consider all the consoles sold then, and the major loss they took...since then, they have "raped" the 40gb model, with taking out PS2 playback ability, removal of the Emotion Engine and Graphics synthesizer ....I believe now they are losing anywhere from $135-$200 a console...which is better....but, is also a far cry from the boasting of what it would be able to do. While i got mine for both the PS3 games and BR, on a great sale...i still have my ps2 to play those games...but even at SOny's "rock bottom" pricing for it....it could at least play older games.

Why strip down a *game console* to make it affordable? Take out the BR player, and leave the *game console* alone...that again goes back to the "forcing" of consumers to have BR players. I'd rather have a PS3 with all the great playing ability without the player, if it came down to pricing. offer the player as an add on, for some models....if they really want it...they can buy it


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> $50?? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought losing A LOT more than that.
> 
> Why strip down a *game console* to make it affordable? Take out the BR player, and leave the *game console* alone...that again goes back to the "forcing" of consumers to have BR players. I'd rather have a PS3 with all the great playing ability without the player, if it came down to pricing. offer the player as an add on, for some models....if they really want it...they can buy it


I don't have any real numbers on what they lose on a player, just tossed a number out, I would expect that the amount they are losing per player now has to be much less than a year ago when the device first came out though.

They decided to make the console more expensive in the hopes of winning a format war (after losing some big ones in the past) by including a BD player and then making money on BD royalties and movies plus game software titles. It was a gamble, no doubt, but if trends continue and BD wins the war PLUS really turns into a successful format they will probably make their money back and then some.

They "forced" a DVD player on us when the PS2 was new too, and that worked out extremely well for them. I'm not saying that a lot of people used them as DVD players (I never did, but I had a seperate DVD player), just that the PS2 was a phenomenal success.

I thought the 40GB unit would still play PS2 games, I don't have one so I can't say for sure but I thought I've read here that others with that model still play PS2 games on it????? I know the "official" word from Sony is limited compatibility but that may just be a CYA issue for support calls on the cheaper model.


----------



## jschramm

Looks like they have been able to cut cost a bunch since it first came out.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/12/sony-cuts-playstation-3-production-cost-in-half/


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## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> I don't have any real numbers on what they lose on a player, just tossed a number out, I would expect that the amount they are losing per player now has to be much less than a year ago when the device first came out though.
> 
> They decided to make the console more expensive in the hopes of winning a format war (after losing some big ones in the past) by including a BD player and then making money on BD royalties and movies plus game software titles. It was a gamble, no doubt, but if trends continue and BD wins the war PLUS really turns into a successful format they will probably make their money back and then some.
> 
> They "forced" a DVD player on us when the PS2 was new too, and that worked out extremely well for them. I'm not saying that a lot of people used them as DVD players (I never did, but I had a seperate DVD player), just that the PS2 was a phenomenal success.
> 
> I thought the 40GB unit would still play PS2 games, I don't have one so I can't say for sure but I thought I've read here that others with that model still play PS2 games on it????? I know the "official" word from Sony is limited compatibility but that may just be a CYA issue for support calls on the cheaper model.


the DVD was already well established when the PS2 was out.....and the 40gb doesn't play ps2 games....they cut it out to lower the price...the 80gb plays some of them, the 20gb and 60gb played them, but Sony discontinued those...again...taking away consumer choice.


----------



## texaswolf

jschramm said:


> Looks like they have been able to cut cost a bunch since it first came out.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/12/sony-cuts-playstation-3-production-cost-in-half/


right...but at the cost of stripping the game console of some of its bragged about features...making the BR player an option would have done this, while leaving the console to do what it was supposed too.


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## crabtrp

It is odd, I have been behind Blu-ray ever since getting my PS3 over a year ago. When I wandered into Circuit City last week and saw the Toshiba A30 for $199 plus 7 free HD-DVD's I went for it. Since Blu-ray has been announced the winner in the race by many people I have climbed up on the fence. I like my HD-DVD player.


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## Sirshagg

texaswolf said:


> right...but at the cost of stripping the game console of some of its bragged about features...making the BR player an option would have done this, while leaving the console to do what it was supposed too.


You are making the assumption that it's primary purpose is a game console. I personally believe the Blu-ray aspect is at least of equal importance to Sony for this device and if that's the case then it *is* doing what it's supposed to do.


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## phat78boy

Agreed. I don't think Sony really wanted to dominate the video game market as it did with the PS2. I think they saw and opportunity to cash in by using their strong video game marketshare to push Blu-Ray players. They realized they would be losing a part of the video game market, but believed the Blu-Ray part would more then make up for it should it "win". 

I think it was a good move for pushing Blu-Ray, bad move for video games. If they made the Blu-Ray player an option, it would hurt them in both the video game market and Blu-Ray market.


----------



## texaswolf

Sirshagg said:


> You are making the assumption that it's primary purpose is a game console. I personally believe the Blu-ray aspect is at least of equal importance to Sony for this device and if that's the case then it *is* doing what it's supposed to do.


The Playstation *is *a game console...to think that they didn't want to dominate in the game market, and then spend that much money making it, is crazy. If they in fact thought the BR player would do fine on it's own, they would have offered a less expensive console with out it, for those who didnt want it, or couldn't afford it...like the 360 did. Think of how much higher sales could have been with both options...all those people who have ps3's and no HDTV could have gotten them cheaper, and Sony could have lost less money...not to mention all those wanting one, but can't afford it.

But obviously they weren't going to take the chance of a stand alone war....so they gave consumers who just wanted a ps3 no choice


----------



## Sirshagg

texaswolf said:


> The Playstation *is *a game console...to think that they didn't want to dominate in the game market, and then spend that much money making it, is crazy. If they in fact thought the BR player would do fine on it's own, they would have offered a less expensive console with out it, for those who didnt want it, or couldn't afford it...like the 360 did. Think of how much higher sales could have been with both options...all those people who have ps3's and no HDTV could have gotten them cheaper, and Sony could have lost less money...not to mention all those wanting one, but can't afford it.
> 
> But obviously they weren't going to take the chance of a stand alone war....so they gave consumers who just wanted a ps3 no choice


The Playstation 3 *is* also a fully functional Blue-ray player, and as I understand it - the only *profile 2.0* upgradeable player currently available.

Sure it's a game console too. Most people, like yourself, think it's first and foremost a game console mostly becasue that was the case for the PS1 and PS2. I'm not saying the the BR aspect of it is more important than the gaming aspect - just that they are at least equal. I'm sure Sony figured they would sell lots of the PS3 strictly as game consoles and then people would realize something like "hey I got a free Blue-ray player, I might as well use it". Consumers start buying BR titles. Seeing BR titles selling more and more the studios start favoring BR. Eventually BR wins. Not that it's going to happen, but I have no doubt that's the "plan" on Sony's part.


----------



## Sirshagg

texaswolf said:


> The Playstation *is *a game console...to think that they didn't want to dominate in the game market, and then spend that much money making it, is crazy. If they in fact thought the BR player would do fine on it's own, they would have offered a less expensive console with out it, for those who didnt want it, or couldn't afford it...like the 360 did. Think of how much higher sales could have been with both options...all those people who have ps3's and no HDTV could have gotten them cheaper, and Sony could have lost less money...not to mention all those wanting one, but can't afford it.
> 
> But obviously they weren't going to take the chance of a stand alone war....so they gave consumers who just wanted a ps3 no choice


Do you see Toshiba making Blue-Ray players? No - and they shouldn't. Same goes for Sony and HD-DVD.


----------



## texaswolf

Sirshagg said:


> The Playstation 3 *is* also a fully functional Blue-ray player, and as I understand it - the only *profile 2.0* upgradeable player currently available.
> 
> Sure it's a game console too. Most people, like yourself, think it's first and foremost a game console mostly becasue that was the case for the PS1 and PS2. I'm not saying the the BR aspect of it is more important than the gaming aspect - just that they are at least equal. I'm sure Sony figured they would sell lots of the PS3 strictly as game consoles and then people would realize something like "hey I got a free Blue-ray player, I might as well use it". Consumers start buying BR titles. Seeing BR titles selling more and more the studios start favoring BR. Eventually BR wins. Not that it's going to happen, but I have no doubt that's the "plan" on Sony's part.


umm i really dont think people are thinking they got a "free blue ray player"...it's obvious of why the ps3 is so expensive is because of the console with a BR player. My point being if they did truly care about the consumer, there would have been a non BR version available, for kids, and folks who just want the game console at a decent price...instead they take away the game play features to make it cheaper...which makes no sense. I would say the same if the 360 had an HDdvd player console only.


> Do you see Toshiba making Blue-Ray players? No - and they shouldn't. Same goes for Sony and HD-DVD.


not sure what you are referring to here....


----------



## RAD

texaswolf said:


> umm i really dont think people are thinking they got a "free blue ray player"...it's obvious of why the ps3 is so expensive is because of the console with a BR player. My point being if they did truly care about the consumer, there would have been a non BR version available, for kids, and folks who just want the game console at a decent price...instead they take away the game play features to make it cheaper...which makes no sense. I would say the same if the 360 had an HDdvd player console only.
> 
> not sure what you are referring to here....


IIRC BD was include in the PS3 because Sony felt that they way games were going that they'd need to extra capacity and speed that BD offered that other media didn't have so kind of hard to pull the BD player out and still have a PS3 game console.


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## texaswolf

RAD said:


> IIRC BD was include in the PS3 because Sony felt that they way games were going that they'd need to extra capacity and speed that BD offered that other media didn't have so kind of hard to pull the BD player out and still have a PS3 game console.


which has been pointed out i believe that no game even comes close to the capacity of a BR disc...but it was a good cover for why they where putting it in, i would be surprised if a game that used up that much disc space was even out before the ps4 comes...if that was even a possible reality...don't you think microsoft would have also put in an HD player in the 360?


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## RAD

texaswolf said:


> which has been pointed out i believe that no game even comes close to the capacity of a BR disc...but it was a good cover for why they where putting it in, i would be surprised if a game that used up that much disc space was even out before the ps4 comes...if that was even a possible reality...don't you think microsoft would have also put in an HD player in the 360?


Never said that a game did require it, just that Sony felt that the capacity would be needed. Now if that was just a cover only the exec's at Sony know.

As for your Microsoft question, isn't the rumor that Microsoft wants to dump all physical media and have everything downloaded, putting a HD DVD played in the 360 runs counter to that plan.


----------



## texaswolf

RAD said:


> Never said that a game did require it, just that Sony felt that the capacity would be needed. Now if that was just a cover only the exec's at Sony know.
> 
> As for your Microsoft question, isn't the rumor that Microsoft wants to dump all physical media and have everything downloaded, putting a HD DVD played in the 360 runs counter to that plan.


whether they want that, or if it's still rumor, i don't know...but it is hard to believe that Sony exec's actually wouldn 't know better of what they were doing.


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## phat78boy

PC games are much more advanced then PS3 games will ever be and not one game requires a BD for space. While a PS3 game may ship on BD one day, it will not be because the game needed space. 

If it hasn't been obvious, by marketing and sales strategy, the PS3 is/was a Blu-Ray player that gave you a free video game console. Every part of the PS3, besides Blu-Ray, is lack luster and over blown. Online gaming is no where near other top online play, games look better on other systems, controllers lacked features that were included in past...etc. 

The major thought that went into the PS3 was Blu-Ray support and playback. This was not a video game machine first. Just to compare, the PS2 was video game first, DVD player second. The PS3, to me, is a juiced up PS2 with Blu-Ray support. Other video game companies made video game innovation their priority, Sony made the next Hi-Def war theirs.


----------



## Sirshagg

texaswolf said:


> which has been pointed out i believe that no game even comes close to the capacity of a BR disc...but it was a good cover for why they where putting it in, i would be surprised if a game that used up that much disc space was even out before the ps4 comes...if that was even a possible reality...don't you think microsoft would have also put in an HD player in the 360?


The question is if there are games that come close to the capacity of DVD's. If so, and they want a medium that can handle the games in one disc then DVD is the not the format to use. What are the alternatives?


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> which has been pointed out i believe that no game even comes close to the capacity of a BR disc...but it was a good cover for why they where putting it in, i would be surprised if a game that used up that much disc space was even out before the ps4 comes...if that was even a possible reality...don't you think microsoft would have also put in an HD player in the 360?


It _may_ be true that there are no games _currently_ that use the full capacity of a BD but there were certainly PS1 games that used more than one CD-ROM, so capacity above DVD was a legitimate concern and design feature. Add in the ability to start putting full 1080P cut-scenes, real HD video (non-animated) clips and other things developers haven't taken advantage of yet, and that capacity very well may be what makes it a *better* game console than the 360 - that would certainly justify putting the drive in there! I don't think 360 developers would put a game out that required an HDDVD drive option due to the reportedly low penetration rate of that add-on. It very well could be that Sony expected the developers to already be taking advantage of this differentiator, but it just hasn't happened. It was their gamble, they took it and consumers have a choice - buy a PS3 for what it is, or don't. PS2s are still selling well and new games are being introduced for it all the time, that's another choice for the consumer.

IIRC, it was more than just the BD drive that drove the cost of the PS3 so high, the processor and video processors are both much more expensive than those in the 360, the change made it tougher for developers to take full advantage of them, but they are still expense leaders.

BTW - for those so mad at Sony for removing the PS2 backward compatibility from the 40GB version, where is your outrage at MS for not making the 360 backward compatible with XBOX games?? Don't bother with the "MS never said it would be" excuse, because Sony has been upfront about the lower priced PS3's lack of PS2 BC as well!


----------



## phat78boy

Sirshagg said:


> The question is if there are games that come close to the capacity of DVD's. If so, and they want a medium that can handle the games in one disc then DVD is the not the format to use. What are the alternatives?


Yes, there are several games I know of that go over. The problem with BD media, at this point in time, is it is still cheaper to give someone two DVD discs then one BD disc.

The games I'm know of are not PS3 games for disclosure.


----------



## phat78boy

bobukcat said:


> It _may_ be true that there are no games _currently_ that use the full capacity of a BD but there were certainly PS2 games that used more than one DVD, so capacity above DVD was a legitimate concern and design feature. Add in the ability to start putting full 1080P cut-scenes, real HD video (non-animated) clips and other things developers haven't taken advantage of yet, and that capacity very well may be what makes it a *better* game console than the 360 - that would certainly justify putting the drive in there! I don't think 360 developers would put a game out that required an HDDVD drive option due to the reportedly low penetration rate of that add-on. It very well could be that Sony expected the developers to already be taking advantage of this differentiator, but it just hasn't happened. It was their gamble, they took it and consumers have a choice - buy a PS3 for what it is, or don't. PS2s are still selling well and new games are being introduced for it all the time, that's another choice for the consumer.
> 
> IIRC, it was more than just the BD drive that drove the cost of the PS3 so high, the processor and video processors are both much more expensive than those in the 360, the change made it tougher for developers to take full advantage of them, but they are still expense leaders.
> 
> BTW - for those so mad at Sony for removing the PS2 backward compatibility from the 40GB version, where is your outrage at MS for not making the 360 backward compatible with XBOX games?? Don't bother with the "MS never said it would be" excuse, because Sony has been upfront about the lower priced PS3's lack of PS2 BC as well!


Sony started those expectations with the PS2 and its full support of PS games. It was also one of their main sell points when the PS2 came out. They also stated the PS3 would follow, but did not fully disclose to what extent. Also, BD is not needed to have 1080P playback. I'll leave it at that as this is the wrong thread.

The BD player though, was the single largest cost of the PS3. Even today you can barely get a stand alone PC drive for 200$. That is still half the cost of the low end PS3.


----------



## bobukcat

Sirshagg said:


> The question is if there are games that come close to the capacity of DVD's. If so, and they want a medium that can handle the games in one disc then DVD is the not the format to use. What are the alternatives?


Exactly, since when is it a good idea to build something next-gen and confine it's performance to memory limitations of a 7-8 year old medium. PS3 games are starting to catch up and as more developers learn to take advantage of the console's power I would expect it to surpass the 360. There may be a new sheriff in town by then, or shortly after, but the power is definitely there to be tapped into.


----------



## phat78boy

bobukcat said:


> Exactly, since when is it a good idea to build something next-gen and confine it's performance to memory limitations of a 7-8 year old medium. PS3 games are starting to catch up and as more developers learn to take advantage of the console's power I would expect it to surpass the 360. There may be a new sheriff in town by then, or shortly after, but the power is definitely there to be tapped into.


Power is over played far too often. Innovation, think Wii, is the key to future gaming. The PS3 is too advanced for anyone to port to other systems and therefore will only have a handfull of PS3 only games, maybe 5, that will ever even try to tap all of its power.


----------



## bobukcat

phat78boy said:


> Also, BD is not needed to have 1080P playback. I'll leave it at that as this is the wrong thread.


It's not needed, but if you want much of the type of content I mentioned at 1080P your DVD is going to be full real quick!! I'm just trying to say that perhaps, just perhaps, Sony expected developers to think outside the current box and wanted to give them a very large canvas to utilize. It may never happen, but that doesn't mean it wasn't at least part of their intention. Regardless, as I said - it was their gamble and if things continue and BD takes off and becomes mainstream someone in SECA that made the decision to include it is probably going to get a big bonus!


----------



## phat78boy

bobukcat said:


> It's not needed, but if you want much of the type of content I mentioned at 1080P your DVD is going to be full real quick!! I'm just trying to say that perhaps, just perhaps, Sony expected developers to think outside the current box and wanted to give them a very large canvas to utilize. It may never happen, but that doesn't mean it wasn't at least part of their intention. Regardless, as I said - it was their gamble and if things continue and BD takes off and becomes mainstream someone in SECA that made the decision to include it is probably going to get a big bonus!


Its not as bad as you think because video games have their own compression codecs that are used. Its not like a Blu-Ray disc that takes so many GB per hour. I do agree that there is a possibility.

Sony has all but won the war on the PS3's back, very good move in terms of Blu-Ray.


----------



## bobukcat

phat78boy said:


> Power is over played far too often. Innovation, think Wii, is the key to future gaming. The PS3 is too advanced for anyone to port to other systems and therefore will only have a handfull of PS3 only games, maybe 5, that will ever even try to tap all of its power.


Power enables innovation, it's not too far fetched to imagine a PS3 game (or games) with sensory motion capture, or some other type of innovation (3D immersive graphics, etc.) using peripherals PLUS outstanding video performance. The Wii is fun, there is no doubt, but no one looks at the picture and says "wow, that's incredible!" - so a device that combines both types of innovations is almost a certainty in the near future IMO. It may not be the PS3, but someone will do it.


----------



## phat78boy

bobukcat said:


> Power enables innovation, it's not too far fetched to imagine a PS3 game (or games) with sensory motion capture, or some other type of innovation (3D immersive graphics, etc.) using peripherals PLUS outstanding video performance. The Wii is fun, there is no doubt, but no one looks at the picture and says "wow, that's incredible!" - so a device that combines both types of innovations is almost a certainly in the near future IMO.


Innovation does not need power, but can use it.

We will have to agree to disagree, as this is getting off topic.


----------



## Richard King

Dark Clouds Ahead for HD DVD
http://svconline.com/residentialav/features/dark_clouds_could_be_ahead_for_hd_dvd0116/


> What custom installer didn't see this one coming? Two disc formats hit the market promising to be the sole proprietor of the high-definition video disc, and only one, presumably, will succeed. Warner Home Video's announcement on the eve of CES that it was abandoning HD DVD and putting all its apples in the Blu-ray basket portends the demise of the HD DVD campaign.
> 
> To its credit, though, HD DVD, led by Toshiba, isn't going down without some sort of fight. Toshiba slashed prices on its existing three players last week in an effort to get consumers to flock to what could be seen as a fire sale. Prices for the three players are now $149, $199, and $299.


More...


----------



## bobukcat

phat78boy said:


> Its not as bad as you think because video games have their own compression codecs that are used. Its not like a Blu-Ray disc that takes so many GB per hour. I do agree that there is a possibility.
> 
> Sony has all but won the war on the PS3's back, very good move in terms of Blu-Ray.


What about load times for games, wouldn't a large game load faster of off BD than DVD, certainly the achievable datarates are much higher, right?? That would also be another reasonable (although arguably not sufficient for the cost trade-off) advantage of adding the BD drive.


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## bobukcat

Richard King said:


> Dark Clouds Ahead for HD DVD
> http://svconline.com/residentialav/features/dark_clouds_could_be_ahead_for_hd_dvd0116/
> More...


BB just sent out 20% off any HD DVD or BD player (excludes Pioneer Elite and the XBOX drive) to "Reward Zone" members for this weekend. Discount is only off of regular price but it might be enough to push me over the edge on an HDDVD player - just for Netflix rentals of non BD titles if nothing else. :scratch:


----------



## phat78boy

bobukcat said:


> What about load times for games, wouldn't a large game load faster of off BD than DVD, certainly the achievable datarates are much higher, right?? That would also be another reasonable (although arguably not sufficient for the cost trade-off) advantage of adding the BD drive.


That would depend on the DVD drive speeds in the PS3. The fastest BD drive is still(right now anyway) slower then the fastest DVD drive. Most combo drives don't use the fastest speeds possible. While the datarates are much higher for BD, the higher speed of the DVD players give it the better transfer times.


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> they took it and consumers have a choice - buy a PS3 for what it is, or don't. PS2s are still selling well and new games are being introduced for it all the time, that's another choice for the consumer.
> 
> BTW - for those so mad at Sony for removing the PS2 backward compatibility from the 40GB version, where is your outrage at MS for not making the 360 backward compatible with XBOX games?? Don't bother with the "MS never said it would be" excuse, because Sony has been upfront about the lower priced PS3's lack of PS2 BC as well!


My point exactly...your choice if you just want a ps3 is with a BR player or nothing at all...i understand the cost of the processor and everything, but take off the stupid mandatory BR player, and you leave the gameplay part alone if you want to drop prices. I actually would have bought the BR version because i would use the BR also...but many people I know havn't bought it yet, because of the price, and they also don't have HDTV's (nor do their kids, who they would buy it mostly for) so the BR player isn't a big deal for them

As far as the 360 not playing games, i could care less, i have always had the playstation, and they have always played older games...and thats what they had stated, that they would...not "for a limited time on more expensive consoles". A smarter way to go would have been the PS3 "Gamer edition" for gamers, with a gamer pack, and the PS3 "media edition" with the BR player and media pack, for those who want both. I've never been a fan of the Sony corp., because of the way they do business, but i have always been a PS fan...and I am just disappointed that they used it like they did, with the get it or don't choice for consumers....in order to push the BR format.


----------



## texaswolf

Sirshagg said:


> The question is if there are games that come close to the capacity of DVD's. If so, and they want a medium that can handle the games in one disc then DVD is the not the format to use. What are the alternatives?


Come on man...it's sony...they love to come up with disc ideas...your telling me the only choice was to go from 4.7gb disc, or even an 8gb dual layer (which would fit most games for a while) to a 25gb to 50gb disc? The biggest game i have see on PC is 6gb i think...and as Phat had stated, they are much more advanced. with the ideas behind the cell processor, they could have come up with a better cost effective solution.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ShawnL25 said:


> March 10 Paramount will again begin publishing Blu-ray titles, begining with the already released Trading Places, Coming to America, and the previously unreleased Anchorman.


OOOOoooooo all the biggy titles. That'll sway things for sure.  


elaclair said:


> If Graffeo actually follows through with his remarks, and looking at the sales data, is there any way that Universal will not go at the very least, format neutral, in the near future?


The sales data also shows that despite a player base (only thanks to the PS3 game machines) there is a 14:1 player base advantage but only a 60:40 disk sale advantage. Oh the Sony shame of it all. Everyone knows that Blu Ray owners disproportionately rent disks, HD DVD owners buy them. Just stop in at any Best Buy and then a Blockbuster and ask the managers of both - they'll be glad to tell you.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

i bought a bluray tonight at target  

and i also noticed that they had approximately twice the selection of blurays than hddvds...


----------



## texaswolf

AirRocker said:


> i bought a bluray tonight at target
> 
> and i also noticed that they had approximately twice the selection of blurays than hddvds...


Target went blu around the time BB did...not a big surprise there...it is interesting though that one poster mentioned his local BB was renting HDdvd's more than BR. Not that it matters if the studios make choices for the consumers.


----------



## texaswolf

> Originally Posted by ShawnL25 View Post
> March 10 Paramount will again begin publishing Blu-ray titles, begining with the already released Trading Places, Coming to America, and the previously unreleased Anchorman.


on Amozon.UK. 
Coming to america and Trading Places have been on both formats since June 07 in America...Anchorman is thought to be a misprint (not the first time) on Amazon UK. I got it last month on HD


----------



## ccr1958

my tip for PS3 owners that use it for mostly movies....
buy the BR player remote...i got one today & it is a lot
easier to use than the game console....it is bluetooth
so it will not respond to your player out of the box...
needs to be linked up to your box via the PS3 setup...
only takes a few seconds by holding down start & enter...
24.99 @ wal-mart...was kinda surprised they had the remote...
edit..may have been 29.99....don't have receipt on me now...


----------



## ccr1958

as info:

new firmware version 2.8 available for several of the toshiba HD DVD players...
just noticed it today....


----------



## Drew2k

ccr1958 said:


> as info:
> 
> new firmware version 2.8 available for several of the toshiba HD DVD players...
> just noticed it today....


Thanks for the heads-up.

Here's what's new iin 2.8 [link]:



> *Firmware Update Version:* 2.8 *Applicable Models: *HD-XA2, HD-A20, HD-A2, HD-A2W, and HD-D2.
> 
> *Overview: *As part of our commitment to provide world-class service to our customers, Toshiba is supplying this firmware update for use by purchasers of Toshiba HD DVD Player models listed above. This firmware update improves support for 1080p/24Hz OUTPUT and auto mode(for HD-A20 and HD-XA2), improves network connectivity supporting the download of web-enabled network content associated with certain HD DVD discs, and also addresses certain disc playback and HDMI/DVI related issues identified by Toshiba. In addition, this firmware update provides High Bit Rate Audio functionality for the HD-XA2 player. When integrated through the HDMI connection to a 7.1 capable multi-channel A/V receiver, High Bit Rate Audio has the potential to offer the latest in high definition surround sound.





> *Frequently Asked Questions:*
> *Q1.* What does this update do?
> *A1.* This firmware update adds support for 1080p/24Hz output and auto mode to the HD-A20 and HD-XA2 players. For the HD-A2, HD-A2W, HD-D2, HD-A20 and HD-XA2 players, it adds more on-screen language display options. In addition, this firmware update improves network connectivity for supporting the download of web- enabled network content associated with certain HD DVD discs, and also addresses certain disc playback and HDMI/DVI related issues identified by Toshiba.
> 
> *Q2.* Why do I need to turn on DHCP and DNS?
> *A2.* Turning on DHCP causes the player to automatically detect its IP address and other network information from your internet service provider's DHCP server. Turning on DNS causes the player to automatically detect the DNS server address associated with your internet service provider.
> 
> *Q3.* I purchased an HD DVD disc that contains/has the capability of downloading web- enabled network content. What do I need to do to view this content?
> *A3.* First, be sure that you have properly configured the player's Ethernet port. If your Ethernet port is properly configured, perform the firmware update process to update the player's firmware to the latest firmware version. Once you have updated the player with the latest firmware, follow the directions that came with the HD DVD disc or that appear in the menu of the HD DVD disc. Should you experience problems viewing such content, please contact Toshiba Customer Solutions at 1-800-319-6684 or HD-DVD Concierge at 1-888-MY HD DVD (1-888-694-3383) .
> 
> *Q4.* When I connect my HD DVD Player to my HDTV or HD Monitor using a HDMI to DVI adaptor cable or a HDMI to DVI adaptor, the output resolution of the player remains fixed at 480i. Does the new firmware address this issue?
> *A4.* This firmware update addresses the issue. Should you continue to experience problems, please contact Toshiba Customer Solutions at 1-800-319-6684 or HD-DVD Concierge at 1-888-MY HD DVD (1-888-694-3383) .
> 
> *Q5. *The HDMI output does not work or works intermittently with the HDMI or DVI input on my HDTV or monitor. Does the new firmware address that issue?
> *A5.* The firmware update addresses and improves HDMI and DVI connectivity issues. If you still experience such issues, try disconnecting and reconnecting the HDMI cable. Make sure your display input is set to HDMI (or DVI). If your display has more than one HDMI/DVI input, make sure that all connected HDMI/DVI source devices are powered on (even if not in use). If none of these solve the issue, please turn off the TV and the HD DVD player. Check all connections. Disconnect and reconnect the HDMI cable. Turn on the TV first and then turn on the HD DVD player. Should you continue to experience issues, please contact Toshiba Customer Solutions at 1-800-319-6684 or HD-DVD Concierge at 1-888-MY HD DVD (1-888-694-3383) .
> 
> *Q6.* During HD DVD playback I sometimes experience pixelization, block noise or audio dropouts. Sometimes playback freezes or stops. Sometimes, playback is not smooth. Does the new firmware address these issues?
> *A6. *This firmware update addresses various playability issues. You should also check to be sure that the disc is clean and, if the disc will not operate at all, that you are inserting the disc with the right side up. In the event that playback freezes or stops, press and hold the ON/STANDBY button on the front of the player for approximately ten seconds. This will cause the player to turn off. After the player turns off, turn the player back on by pressing the ON/STANDBY button, and then press the OPEN/CLOSE button to remove the disc. Should you continue to experience issues, please contact Toshiba Customer Solutions at 1-800-319-6684 or HD-DVD Concierge at 1-888-MY HD DVD (1-888-694-3383) .
> 
> *Q7.* Do I need to install prior firmware updates before installing the current firmware update?
> *A7. *No. The current firmware update includes all of the prior firmware updates.


----------



## ibglowin

Guess I didn't get the memo.

I am format neutral. I own approx 60 BD movies and only about 10 HDDVD (and 5 were the free ones). I have only rented 3BD's from Netflix. I prefer to buy.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Everyone knows that Blu Ray owners disproportionately rent disks, HD DVD owners buy them.


----------



## bobukcat

ccr1958 said:


> my tip for PS3 owners that use it for mostly movies....
> buy the BR player remote...i got one today & it is a lot
> easier to use than the game console....it is bluetooth
> so it will not respond to your player out of the box...
> needs to be linked up to your box via the PS3 setup...
> only takes a few seconds by holding down start & enter...
> 24.99 @ wal-mart...was kinda surprised they had the remote...
> edit..may have been 29.99....don't have receipt on me now...


+1, it makes it a much more pleasant experience. :imwith:


----------



## ShawnL25

Blu-ray Commands 93 Percent of Weekly Hardware Sales Post-Warner Announcement
Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 09:00 AM ET
Tags: High-Def Retailing, Industry Trends (all tags)

Blu-ray hardware sales took a commanding lead over HD DVD in the first week following Warner's announcement that it would abandon its support of the HD DVD format.

According to newly-released NPD data (first published over at The Digital Bits), Blu-ray's hardware market share jumped to a record 93% of players sold for the week ending Jan 12.

ADVERTISEMENT

That's up from 51% in the week prior. Industry observers attribute the jump to Warner's announcement on January 4th that it would exclusively back the Blu-ray format beginning this June.

As we've previously reported, Blu-ray software sales also hit a record-high that same week, jumping to 85% (vs 15% for HD DVD). At press time, the HD DVD camp had not responded either report.

See what people are saying about this story in our forums area, or check out other recent discussions.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s..._Hardware_Sales_Post-Warner_Announcement/1398

this is promising


----------



## Mike728

texaswolf said:


> Target went blu around the time BB did...not a big surprise there...it is interesting though that one poster mentioned his local BB was renting HDdvd's more than BR. Not that it matters if the studios make choices for the consumers.


BB didn't go Blu-ray exclusive (yet). My BB has equally allotted space for each format. They only sell, not rent discs.

The war is great for us both format people. Both are now cheaper than ever.


----------



## Cholly

AirRocker said:


> i bought a bluray tonight at target
> 
> and i also noticed that they had approximately twice the selection of blurays than hddvds...


Assuming you purchased a Sony BDP-S300, just to make you feel bad: if you'd bought your Blu-ray player from Amazon instead of Target, you'd have saved $53 plus sales tax (Sony BDP-S300/SM - the model with Spiderman 3 included)  -- it's strange that the PS3 40 GB system retails for the same price as the BDP-S300 at most stores. The PS3 would seem to be the better route to go, seeing that it seems to have better promise of Profile 1.1 (and perhaps 2.0) compatibility in addition to being a decent game console.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Cholly said:


> Assuming you purchased a Sony BDP-S300, just to make you feel bad: if you'd bought your Blu-ray player from Amazon instead of Target, you'd have saved $53 plus sales tax (Sony BDP-S300/SM - the model with Spiderman 3 included)  -- it's strange that the PS3 40 GB system retails for the same price as the BDP-S300 at most stores. The PS3 would seem to be the better route to go, seeing that it seems to have better promise of Profile 1.1 (and perhaps 2.0) compatibility in addition to being a decent game console.


i already have a PS3...

sorry... my post may have been misleading... i meant i bought a bluray disc... it was in response to hdtvfan's post about "Blu Ray owners disproportionately rent disks, HD DVD owners buy them".


----------



## Cholly

AirRocker said:


> i already have a PS3...
> 
> sorry... my post may have been misleading... i meant i bought a bluray disc... it was in response to hdtvfan's post about "Blu Ray owners disproportionately rent disks, HD DVD owners buy them".


Ah, so!  In my case, I remain pretty much format neutral, although you wouldn't think so since I own two HD DVD players and haven't yet bought a Blu-ray player. My choice was made based on price and maturity of the technology. Blu-ray, in my opinion, is still a work in progress, hence I wait.

Interesting news from High-Def Digest: Universal is denying rumors that it is abandoning HD DVD. Also, links to two online petitions: one for saving HD DVD and the other for letting the format die.


----------



## Richard King

http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=89505&var=story#89505
Blu-ray Player Sales Surged After Warner Announcement


> Looking for more evidence that the high-definition disc format war is over? New statistics reveal that Blu-ray jumped out to a dramatic lead, controlling more than 90 percent of the hardware market in the week after Warner Bros. announced it was going Blu-ray-exclusive on Jan. 4.


More...


----------



## machavez00

waiting for 2.0 players


----------



## bobukcat

Mike728 said:


> BB didn't go Blu-ray exclusive (yet). My BB has equally allotted space for each format. They only sell, not rent discs.
> 
> The war is great for us both format people. Both are now cheaper than ever.


I think he meant Blockbuster, not Best Buy - that BB is BD exclusive in their B&M locations. (How many more abreviations could I have used in that statement?? :grin: )


----------



## jutley

machavez00 said:


> waiting for 2.0 players


I'm trying really hard to do the same, but it is getting tough. I'd really like a combo player with a Blu-ray 2.0 spec, but I'm gettting rather tired of waiting. Maybe I'll end up buying a stand alone Blu-ray player and just keep my HD-A20 also. So many things to think about...


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Sales percentages really mean nothing. 85:15 could literally be 85 of one and 15 of the other... and 85 would be nothing to be happy about. If it is 85,000 to 15,000 even that doesn't compare to standard DVD numbers.

Same is true for the player sales percentages... without actual numbers, the percentages mean nothing.

That said... I would have expected a slant to Blu ray immediately after CES. People do panic buying all the time. Whenever the weather report even implies we might get a snowflake, suddenly everyone goes and buys all the toilet paper, milk, water, bread, and other items... and they will buy 2 weeks' supply for a predicted 1 day snow "event" that may never even happen.

So panic buying after CES wouldn't surprise me at all... but it would have to be more than a 1 week or 2 week or 1 month trend to be of any value at all to the company bean counters.


----------



## elaclair

HDMe said:


> Sales percentages really mean nothing. 85:15 could literally be 85 of one and 15 of the other... and 85 would be nothing to be happy about. If it is 85,000 to 15,000 even that doesn't compare to standard DVD numbers.
> 
> Same is true for the player sales percentages... without actual numbers, the percentages mean nothing.


Here are the actual numbers from the same time period.

Here's how the January Week 1 unit sales looked for each format (week ending 1/5)...

Blu-ray Disc - 15,257 units
HD-DVD - 14,558 units

That was prior to the Warner announcement, which came on 1/4. Now here's how the January Week 2 unit sales data for each format looked AFTER the announcement (for the week ending 1/12)...

Blu-ray Disc - 21,770 units
HD-DVD - 1,758 units

Here are the unit sales numbers for the month of December as well (weeks ending 12/8 to 12/29)...

Blu-ray Disc - 115,132 units
HD-DVD - 76,148 units


----------



## bobukcat

elaclair said:


> Here are the actual numbers from the same time period.
> 
> Here's how the January Week 1 unit sales looked for each format (week ending 1/5)...
> 
> Blu-ray Disc - 15,257 units
> HD-DVD - 14,558 units
> 
> That was prior to the Warner announcement, which came on 1/4. Now here's how the January Week 2 unit sales data for each format looked AFTER the announcement (for the week ending 1/12)...
> 
> Blu-ray Disc - 21,770 units
> HD-DVD - 1,758 units
> 
> Here are the unit sales numbers for the month of December as well (weeks ending 12/8 to 12/29)...
> 
> Blu-ray Disc - 115,132 units
> HD-DVD - 76,148 units


Pretty weak! :icon_lame


----------



## SteveHas

This may be posted already but Crave has it on their web site as well
HD-DVD is going down for the count

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9856126-1.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Crave


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SteveHas said:


> This may be posted already but Crave has it on their web site as well
> HD-DVD is going down for the count
> 
> http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9856126-1.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Crave


Sure...they're practically giving away the Blu ray units now at all-time-low prices this past week.

Wait until all those buyers find out they have just purchased semi-obsolete machines that don't support most of the new Blu Ray v1.1 standards (ethernet updates, new codecs, etc.).... :eek2: :eek2:

They'll be plenty of P.O. Blu Ray owners out there...:nono2:


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sure...they're practically giving away the Blu ray units now at all-time-low prices this past week.
> 
> Wait until all those buyers find out they have just purchased semi-obsolete machines that don't support most of the new Blu Ray v1.1 standards (ethernet updates, new codecs, etc.).... :eek2: :eek2:
> 
> They'll be plenty of P.O. Blu Ray owners out there...:nono2:


Nah, most of them will never know they are missing anything - ignorance is bliss!! :wizardhat

The ones that do find out and get mad can join the pi**ed-off people that are uninformed and are buying fire-sale HDDVD players only to find they can't buy the movies they want for them in 18 months or less when the other studios finally give up the ghost and switch to BD.


----------



## ccr1958

blu ray question....
are some of the BR movies in what i call letterbox
format....by that i mean a 3-4" area of my HDTV screen
just blank(black)....so far i have noticed this on Live Free, Die Hard
& one of the Resident Evil's....i would think with a larger disc capacity
supposedly not being used (per some of these threads) that they could
have almost all movies format to fill the 16x9 screen....or is there a setting
in the video setup of the PS3 i am missing??

Some of the HD DVD movies do this sort of formatting also but i can see
that being part of the deal with less disc space to work with....


----------



## Tom Robertson

Many movies in their original aspect ratio are even wider than 16:9, so we will still see letterboxing even on a HD widescreen TV. (Just imagine how much letterboxing would be on a 4:3 screen!)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

2001:A Space Odyssey was shot in Super Panavision 2.21:1 so there is still significant letterboxing.


----------



## ccr1958

ok thanks guys...now i know i don't
have a setting set wrong


----------



## Sirshagg

Tom Robertson said:


> Many movies in their original aspect ratio are even wider than 16:9, so we will still see letterboxing even on a HD widescreen TV. (Just imagine how much letterboxing would be on a 4:3 screen!)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I've seen movies where I'm sure I could get two playing (top / Bottom) on a 4:3 set at the same time space wise.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I can't think of a movie that was shot at 2.66:1 (the aspect ratio you'd need to fit 2 movies on a 4:3, or more properly 1.33:1) TV. But there are probably are ones. I can't remember which but I know I have one movie shot at 2:33:1.


----------



## mridan

Some intresting articles.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,25642,23095581-5014239,00.html
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35721/117/
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35741/98/


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> I think he meant Blockbuster, not Best Buy - that BB is BD exclusive in their B&M locations. (How many more abreviations could I have used in that statement?? :grin: )


That i did...sorry for the confusion, i thought he meant Blockbuster....Best Buy wont go exclusive to either format....there is too much money in it for them to offer all choices...movie studios should learn from it!


> Here are the unit sales numbers for the month of December as well (weeks ending 12/8 to 12/29)...
> 
> Blu-ray Disc - 115,132 units
> HD-DVD - 76,148 units


even if in fact these are accurate numbers (depending on which site you go to).....HDDVD must be doomed...i mean my god...they only sold 76,148 units in the month of December?!?! Man...i guess it is over...nobody is buy HDDVD!

Sorry fanboys (of both) this thing is going to be around for awhile....i guess it never occurred to people that studios will swing back and forth to boost sales whenever they want....now if a studio has a contract *without* a buy out clause....you could call it definite.


> This may be posted already but Crave has it on their web site as well
> HD-DVD is going down for the count
> 
> http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-985...eed&subj=Crave


and as mentioned before they a very Sony and BR biased, as is Engadget....gotta kinda fish around for a neutral look, without slant from either side.



> The war is great for us both format people. Both are now cheaper than ever.


Exxxxactly! Having both i am loving the movie deals....the claim of some studios going blu is to not "confuse the consumer":lol: ....uh huh...andhow many HDDVD's did you put out that the consumer has bought? More like, we are going to re release and make more money. So which is better to do...let people have a choice in buying either format...or only give them one format where they don't have a choice? Not like the market is huge anyway right now....now when the dual format players get cheaper, and start selling like crazy.....what will studios do? Maybe the consumer isn't as stupid as they think, since a lot that i have heard from are waiting for cheaper dual players.


----------



## Mike728

Stuart Sweet said:


> I can't think of a movie that was shot at 2.66:1 (the aspect ratio you'd need to fit 2 movies on a 4:3, or more properly 1.33:1) TV. But there are probably are ones. I can't remember which but I know I have one movie shot at 2:33:1.


I have several that are formatted 2.35:1. Here's a link, if anyone's interested, for a better understanding of these formats: Click me!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I probably meant 2.35, not 2.33. Forgive me.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Whenever I hear someone say "game over" for HD DVD... I flashback to that scene in Aliens where the soldier guy is panicking and saying "game over man, game over"... and the Aliens way outnumber the good guys... but then somehow in the end, the last couple of good guys (girls actually) win.


----------



## RAD

Toshiba's 50% price cut this week reminds me of the big sign I saw on a store also advertising 50% reductions. Oh yea, that was on CompUSA, right next to the going out of business sign.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> Whenever I hear someone say "game over" for HD DVD... I flashback to that scene in Aliens where the soldier guy is panicking and saying "game over man, game over"... and the Aliens way outnumber the good guys... but then somehow in the end, the last couple of good guys (girls actually) win.


you mean the one where the big ugly species (Sony) trys to kill everything (competition, consumer choice) in it's path to be the dominate species (company), that when it gets a hold of a person (or computer), in implants an egg (spyware) into that person (computer)...and when it is attacked it's blood (lawyers) becomes acid (DRM lawsuits):lol:

Sorry when i read your post, it all kind of came together

Im just kidding Fanboys...don't go all Johnny Storm on me...Flame OFF!


----------



## texaswolf

RAD said:


> Toshiba's 50% price cut this week reminds me of the big sign I saw on a store also advertising 50% reductions. Oh yea, that was on CompUSA, right next to the going out of business sign.


Ahhh and i bet the people who cant afford $400 players, liked that sale...or is HD only for those who like to pay top dollar?


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> I can't think of a movie that was shot at 2.66:1 (the aspect ratio you'd need to fit 2 movies on a 4:3, or more properly 1.33:1) TV. But there are probably are ones. I can't remember which but I know I have one movie shot at 2:33:1.


The only one I can think of that was shot in the full 2.66:1 CinemaScope process was Ben-Hur, though I'm sure there were others. Because of the combination of magnetic and optical soundtrack additions, the practical scope was reduced to around 2.55:1 IIRC .


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Oh jeepers. 

Considering my growing investment in HD DVD, I should be more angry. But then it was pointed out to me that about every other year I spend about $200 per person on new high feature phones, and then use the service they provide, costing a load of money every month. If my HD DVD player is no longer a prudent investment in 2 years I guess that's just the way the cookie crumbles.


----------



## RAD

texaswolf said:


> Ahhh and i bet the people who cant afford $400 players, liked that sale...or is HD only for those who like to pay top dollar?


Only if the money the spend won't be going towards a dead end product, which all indications are point to at the moment. Unless those buyers only want to watch HD from Universal or Paramount.


----------



## texaswolf

RAD said:


> Only if the money the spend won't be going towards a dead end product, which all indications are point to at the moment. Unless those buyers only want to watch HD from Universal or Paramount.


Not like there is no HDDVD movies to watch now. There are WB/New line movies out on HDDVD you can't get on Blu right now...again it's not like all HDDVDs explode once a studio goes blu...considering all the movies they can get on HDDVD, with a player cost of $99-$159....I think yes, they would love that deal. Average joes will do the math, and figure...i can get a HD player and this many movies (plus the free ones) for the price of that player alone.

Preaching doom and gloom is what has been going on since the war started, yet studios keep shuffling around or in Disney's case voting for HDDVD to have the 51GB triple layer disc...when the rest of BR supporters abstained....it just shows you that each studio is keeping options open, and can jump anytime they want.

What we see out here is "oh its all over man!" when in reality, studios are doing more back room deals than we even know. It's obvious that money and deals are the bigger issue vs. consumer demand. It's like Survivor...which alliance works best for "us" at this moment. That why I don't put alot of stock in studios jumping around.


----------



## jamiethomas

Edit: (Tom Robertson) Sorry, but petition links are not permitted for a number of reasons. The petition link has been removed.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

RAD said:


> Toshiba's 50% price cut this week reminds me of the big sign I saw on a store also advertising 50% reductions. Oh yea, that was on CompUSA, right next to the going out of business sign.


Every store in my city must be going out of business then, because just after Christmas I saw 50% off signs all over the place!

I always find it strange that people question high prices, but question low ones as well. Complain about being ripped off, but afraid the cheap product is too cheap... Say that people want to "buy American" while in line to buy the on-sale foreign product... Talk about "fire sales" being bad, and yet plan for the yearly "Black Friday" sales as being good.

It's the ultimate in circular logic... If your price is too high, that's bad... but don't lower your price because that's bad too!

Incidentally... K-Mart (to use an example) actually did file for bankruptcy... but then they merged/bought Sears... so the declaration of "death" seems to be a questionable thing many times.

I still stand by my non-fanboy take that when something is over, it is over... and needs no such declaration because it will be obvious to all. "Declaring" something is often an attempt to hasten belief in something that has not yet happened.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh jeepers.
> 
> Considering my growing investment in HD DVD, I should be more angry. But then it was pointed out to me that about every other year I spend about $200 per person on new high feature phones, and then use the service they provide, costing a load of money every month. If my HD DVD player is no longer a prudent investment in 2 years I guess that's just the way the cookie crumbles.


This is yet another way to look at it... While I don't plan or want to buy a new DVD player every couple of years... the way prices came down on standard players, it became far cheaper to replace one than repair it... so I did have a span where I replaced my player due to failure or incompatibility or desire for new features a few times over a span of several years... and to some extent this means the standard DVD player has officially become "disposable" in much the same way as those digital watches became disposable once the price of a new battery wasn't much less than the price of a new watch!

HD DVD and Blu ray are not there yet, not by any means... but even if HD DVD does "die" by the end of this year... I have all my HD movies until my existing player dies.. and I have a good history with Toshiba products lasting a long time... so unless the special dissolving-acid-ink is activated that will destroy all my HD DVDs, it will be hard to consider it a wasted investment.

That argument, incidentally, also holds true for folks with Blu ray 1.0 players who do not necessarily feel the need for 1.1 or 2.0 features.


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> Whenever I hear someone say "game over" for HD DVD... I flashback to that scene in Aliens where the soldier guy is panicking and saying "game over man, game over"... and the Aliens way outnumber the good guys... but then somehow in the end, the last couple of good guys (girls actually) win.


I always loved the Bill Paxton line "Why don't we put her in f****ing charge then?!" when Sigourney tells them that the little girl "Newt" has survived on the ship for months alone. Perhaps if a child were running the consumer electronics industry.....???


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> I always loved the Bill Paxton line "Why don't we put her in f****ing charge then?!" when Sigourney tells them that the little girl "Newt" has survived on the ship for months alone. Perhaps if a child were running the consumer electronics industry.....???


sometimes it seems like there is:lol:


----------



## Drew2k

RAD said:


> Only if the money the spend won't be going towards a dead end product, which all indications are point to at the moment. Unless those buyers only want to watch HD from Universal or Paramount.


But ... if the money spent on the hardware is the same they would have spent on an HD upconvert DVD player, AND it gives them the ability to play HD-DVD movies, the consumer has options: buy SD DVDs exclusively, buy HD-DVDs exclusively, or buy both types. Each consumer who dabbles and buys one or two HD-DVDs, and who likes what they see, may become a repeat HD-DVD customer, buying more HD-DVDs. Universal and Paramount are happy as they see sales climbing ... Other studios eye the Universal and Paramount sales gains and start to rethink their Blu Ray exclusivity ...

All because of a sale on a "dead-end product".


----------



## RAD

You're assuming that Toshiba will keep on selling their players at a loss in the hope that consumers will not notice that if they want to play HD media they're going to be severly limited in their choices of what movies that can view.


----------



## Drew2k

RAD said:


> You're assuming that Toshiba will keep on selling their players at a loss in the hope that consumers will not notice that if they want to play HD media they're going to be severly limited in their choices of what movies that can view.


Nope.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> Universal and Paramount are happy as they see sales climbing ... Other studios eye the Universal and Paramount sales gains and start to rethink their Blu Ray exclusivity ...
> 
> All because of a sale on a "dead-end product".


I chuckle about the supporters for the 1 Million dead end Blu Ray players out there right now that can't support the first actual Blu Ray standard firmware verson (v1.1). That new version hits the market in 45 days.

No ethernet, no new codecs, and lot of other things in the entire existing Blu Ray player customer base. For all those people who spent the $400 - $1000 on their BD players - that could be viewed as a "dead end" purchase.

All new BD disks will have features on them that support v1.1, and none of the older units be be able to use most of those newer features. It will be interesting to see if there's all that Sony love out there once the mass market learns of this debacle. :eek2:

Sony must figure if you were foolish enough to spend twice as much for a player in the first place, it'll be no big deal to buy another new player as a replacement soon after the first one. 

Yeah, Sony is sure looking out for the consumer all right.


----------



## RAD

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I chuckle about the supporters for the 1 Million dead end Blu Ray players out there right now that can't support the first actual Blu Ray standard firmware verson (v1.1). That new version hits the market in 45 days.
> 
> No ethernet, no codecs, and lot of other things in the entire existing Blu Ray player customer base. For all those people who spent the $400 - $1000 on their BD players - that could be viewed as a "dead end" purchase.
> 
> All new BD disks will have features on them that support v1.1, and none of the older units be be able to use most of those newer features. It will be interesting to see if there's all that Sony love out there once the mass market learns of this debacle. :eek2:
> 
> Sony must figure if you were foolish enough to spend twice as much for a player int he first place, it'll be no big deal to buy another new player as a replacement soon after the first one.
> 
> Yeah, Sony is sure looking out for the consumer all right.


They may not be able to take advantage of some of the features on those other profile disc's when they come out but they'll still be able to play and people will be able to watch the movie. It's not like they'll end up with a door stop like HD-DVD folks if Universal and Paramount decide to go blu.


----------



## PTravel

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I chuckle about the supporters for the 1 Million dead end Blu Ray players out there right now that can't support the first actual Blu Ray standard firmware verson (v1.1). That new version hits the market in 45 days.
> 
> No ethernet, no new codecs, and lot of other things in the entire existing Blu Ray player customer base. For all those people who spent the $400 - $1000 on their BD players - that could be viewed as a "dead end" purchase.


I spent $400 on my BluRay player. I bought it to play movies BluRay movies in HD. It does, and will continue to do so. I couldn't care less about on-line extras, etc. If the movies that I want to see are in BluRay, why would I buy an HD-DVD? And, of course, vice versa.



> All new BD disks will have features on them that support v1.1, and none of the older units be be able to use most of those newer features. It will be interesting to see if there's all that Sony love out there once the mass market learns of this debacle. :eek2:


I don't "love" Sony and I have an HD DVD player as well.



> Sony must figure if you were foolish enough to spend twice as much for a player in the first place, it'll be no big deal to buy another new player as a replacement soon after the first one.


As a matter of fact, it is no big deal. If there was something in the v1.1 or v2.0 spec that was truly appealing to me, I'd go out and buy another player, just as I've been continually upgrading my video system from my first Beta player and 19" color TV through numerous VHS and S-VHS players, DVD players, CRT televisions and, now, HiDef LCD TV.



> Yeah, Sony is sure looking out for the consumer all right.


Sony's job is to look after its shareholders, not consumers. It looks after shareholders by offering technology that people want to buy so it can turn a profit and distribute the profit as a share dividend.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

PTravel said:


> As a matter of fact, it is no big deal. If there was something in the v1.1 or v2.0 spec that was truly appealing to me, I'd go out and buy another player, just as I've been continually upgrading my video system from my first Beta player and 19" color TV through numerous VHS and S-VHS players, DVD players, CRT televisions and, now, HiDef LCD TV.
> 
> Sony's job is to look after its shareholders, not consumers. It looks after shareholders by offering technology that people want to buy so it can turn a profit and distribute the profit as a share dividend.


I suspect that when the general marketplace learns of the new v1.1 requirements, and the fact that a number of the new BD disks coming out going forward include feature NOT available to today's user base, it will be a "big deal". Ethernet connectivity, in particular, is not something you can throw in place with a firmware update, nor are chipsets that don't support new audio codecs.

We'll see if there is mass enthusiasm for replacing those $400 - $1000 boxes for v1.1 versions. I'm forcasting a backlash and uproar.

Yup, Sony does have a primary responsibility to its stockholders, rather than consumers. Unfortunately, they're doing poorly on both fronts.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RAD said:


> They may not be able to take advantage of some of the features on those other profile disc's when they come out but they'll still be able to play and people will be able to watch the movie. It's not like they'll end up with a door stop like HD-DVD folks if Universal and Paramount decide to go blu.


With almost 400 movies in both HD formats, and superior upconverting of standard DVD's, neither format will be a door stop for several years. At the prices HD DVD players have been selling for since last fall, they are especially much less of a risk for that syndrome.

There are hundreds of thousands of HD DVD owners who have $150 or less invested. That's the cost of a good standard upconverting player.

On the other hand....if someone spent $600-$1000 on a Blu Ray player last summer, and soon can't use it as intended with newer BD disks because of a chipset lack of audio codecs or ethernet connectivity, there is a higher potential for the door stop scenario. When one spends 2-3 times as much for 1/3 less the functionality, that's a formula for mass frustration.


----------



## BudShark

Not to jump in the middle of this - but I guess I'll jump into the middle of this :grin:

We are kinda twisting numbers here. 


hdtvfan0001 said:


> hundreds of thousands of HD DVD owners who have $150


Refers to only people who bought the players in the last 3-4 weeks.


hdtvfan0001 said:


> On the other hand....if someone spent $600-$1000 on a Blu Ray player last summer


Refers (as you note) to people who bought their Blu-Ray player more than 4-6 months ago.

Lets compare apples to apples here. The cost difference between the players over the past 10-12 months has been within $200 at most IIRC. And less than that if we compare only 1080P to 1080P.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> and soon can't use it as intended with newer BD disks because of a chipset lack of audio codecs or ethernet connectivity


Again - a bit of leading the witness. The correct statement should be "and soon can't play audio codecs few if any JSPs have ever heard of or have the setup to even begin to play and lack the ethernet connectivity for JSP to play games and/or receive Internet content about the movie and/or watch PiP director commentary - all of which JSP doesn't have, doesn't use, or has never once indicated they have interest in".

I'd love to see how many people who have purchased a next generation player made their choice because of PiP, Internet connectivity of their movies, or an advanced audio codec that offered an uncompromised sound experience. I'm willing to bet since the beginning of November (when we moved into the JSP realm) that answer is a resounding "What are you talking about? I bought a Blu-Ray (and or HD-DVD) because its better than DVD and the movies I wanted are on that format."

I don't want to take anything away from the enthusiasts, but the uproar we are talking about is probably less than a fraction of the studios intended audience. I'm sure Warner, Fox, Disney, etc. aren't willing sweating what the (pure guestimate) 250,000 people who have dedicated home theaters with proper audio setups and ethernet run to their DVD player think of them choosing Blu-Ray over HD-DVD.

JSP has never run out and bought the special edition movies for the behind the scenes looks, the director commentaries, nor have they run ethernet all over their house. They won't run out and buy $100 ethernet bridges so they can have Internet content on their DVD players. While all these things are great for the enthusiasts, they are a small number. I think harping on the Blu-Ray profiles and the expected "backlash" is a bit of making a mountain out of a molehill. But you never know... I suppose stranger things have happened and the Wal-Mart/Target/Best Buy purchasers of Blu-Rays may just scream and holler and never buy a BR movie again when they find out.

Just my opinion.

Chris


----------



## Ghostwriter

I agree with alot that has been said so far. I consider myself somewhat of an enthusiast but not to the point of a few guys here. I do have above avg. equipment and am on par with most of the latest technologies, but won't jump in right away.

I just got an HD DVD player yesterday. It was open box and then with a reward zone coupon I ended up at $84.80 for an A3 with 2 included movies, 2 off the shelf and then the 5 free, not bad for at a worse case scenario will be a great upconverter. 

I won't bash either format though I think the BD players haven't dropped as much as some would like because Sony is eating it with the PS3 pricing. As far as 1.0/1.1/2.0 I agree most could care less, from J6P to guys that like me having a nice HT setup but not all out. I have never bought nor ever watched bonus material other than the occasional gag reel or deleted scenes (and they were deleted for a reason!), and as long as the movie disc plays then I am fine with it and most people will not be in an uproar about it because I am guessing over 90% of the people that buy discs never watch it anyway.

I will eventually become purple since neither format has all the movies I would like, and both formats have their pros and cons. Personally I think neither will ever become mainstream since it will be awhile before one becomes feasible to the general public and by the time that happens there will be something like iHDDownload or some other type of streaming HD access...IMHO


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> On the other hand....if someone spent $600-$1000 on a Blu Ray player last summer, and soon can't use it as intended with newer BD disks because of a chipset lack of audio codecs or ethernet connectivity, there is a higher potential for the door stop scenario. When one spends 2-3 times as much for 1/3 less the functionality, that's a formula for mass frustration.


I think we need to see just how many BDs are released with these "advanced" features and what they are before we have a real idea just how many "grace period" owners are going to be ticked-off and how mad they will be. In any case I just don't think the number of people involved is high enough to make even a ripple in the marketplace.


----------



## PTravel

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect that when the general marketplace learns of the new v1.1 requirements, and the fact that a number of the new BD disks coming out going forward include feature NOT available to today's user base, it will be a "big deal". Ethernet connectivity, in particular, is not something you can throw in place with a firmware update, nor are chipsets that don't support new audio codecs.


Ethernet connectivity is required for internet-enabled features. How many people do you think want that? How many people do you think bought a BluRay player to watch movies in HD, and will continue to do so, notwithstanding all these extras?



> We'll see if there is mass enthusiasm for replacing those $400 - $1000 boxes for v1.1 versions. I'm forcasting a backlash and uproar.


We'll see. Frankly, I doubt it. I'm not replacing my BluRay player just to get some internet extra material. The only extra material I've ever had any interest in are the "making of" featurettes, and those will continue to be viewable under the newer specs.



> Yup, Sony does have a primary responsibility to its stockholders, rather than consumers. Unfortunately, they're doing poorly on both fronts.


Last time I looked, Sony stock is up.


----------



## ibglowin

Arrgggg.....

There be fAnBoI's in these waters!


----------



## Drew2k

BudShark said:


> Not to jump in the middle of this - but I guess I'll jump into the middle of this :grin:
> 
> We are kinda twisting numbers here.
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *hdtvfan0001*
> _ hundreds of thousands of HD DVD owners who have $150_
> 
> 
> 
> Refers to only people who bought the players in the last 3-4 weeks.
Click to expand...

But you can't limit it to just the last 3-4 weeks, either. I bought my $99 Toshiba HD-A2 November 2, 2007.


----------



## BudShark

ibglowin said:


> Arrgggg.....
> 
> There be fAnBoI's in these waters!


Please enlighten us as to whom you are referring... and what you hope to accomplish by dropping general accusations and running.

So far I've only seen logical arguments, with perspective backing them, until your inflamatory comment - directed to an as yet unnamed "fAnBoI"...

Chris


----------



## Cholly

Tsk, Chris! Lighten up! Mike probably was referring to those who adamantly argue in favor of one format or the other. More than likely, he's singling out those who smugly shout "HD DVD is dead" or those who say "Blu-Ray Disc sucks because it doesn't have PIP, ethernet, inteactivity, etc.". 

Let's face it. Many of the Blu-ray Disc fans bought theirs because it's a PS3, or because they in particular want movies by Fox, Disney, Sony or (now) Warner.
Many of the HD DVD fans bought theirs because of price or the features such as interactivity, ethernet, PIP, etc.

Making a comparative analysis of the two formats is fine, as is discussion as to why one favors a given format. Behaving like attack dogs is not, IMHO


----------



## phat78boy

If the BD 2.0 profiles is something no one will use, why are they making it a standard? Obviously it gets used a lot more then people on this forum think as they have gone through a few profiles and generations of players and only now deem ethernet as a must. 

Extra's are a big selling point for movies. The fact that a smaller disc (HD-DVD) has more extras then the "more advanced/larger" BD disc is against Sony's selling strategy. I think the interactive aspects as well as internet downloads are big not only for first run releases, but for the re-release of movies already owned too. I know several people who have bought the movie again because of extra scenes, one example is Spiderman 2.


----------



## Mike728

phat78boy said:


> If the BD 2.0 profiles is something no one will use, why are they making it a standard?


Probably so they can push more advertising at us.


----------



## bobukcat

Mike728 said:


> Probably so they can push more advertising at us.


Sadly, that is probably the most accurate statement regarding connected-content that I have read yet! :righton:


----------



## phat78boy

Mike728 said:


> Probably so they can push more advertising at us.


lol. Its going to be awesome having those screen bugs pop up during your next movie huh?


----------



## ebaltz

BudShark said:


> Not to jump in the middle of this - but I guess I'll jump into the middle of this :grin:
> 
> We are kinda twisting numbers here.
> 
> Refers to only people who bought the players in the last 3-4 weeks.
> 
> Refers (as you note) to people who bought their Blu-Ray player more than 4-6 months ago.
> 
> Lets compare apples to apples here. The cost difference between the players over the past 10-12 months has been within $200 at most IIRC. And less than that if we compare only 1080P to 1080P.
> 
> Again - a bit of leading the witness. The correct statement should be "and soon can't play audio codecs few if any JSPs have ever heard of or have the setup to even begin to play and lack the ethernet connectivity for JSP to play games and/or receive Internet content about the movie and/or watch PiP director commentary - all of which JSP doesn't have, doesn't use, or has never once indicated they have interest in".
> 
> I'd love to see how many people who have purchased a next generation player made their choice because of PiP, Internet connectivity of their movies, or an advanced audio codec that offered an uncompromised sound experience. I'm willing to bet since the beginning of November (when we moved into the JSP realm) that answer is a resounding "What are you talking about? I bought a Blu-Ray (and or HD-DVD) because its better than DVD and the movies I wanted are on that format."
> 
> I don't want to take anything away from the enthusiasts, but the uproar we are talking about is probably less than a fraction of the studios intended audience. I'm sure Warner, Fox, Disney, etc. aren't willing sweating what the (pure guestimate) 250,000 people who have dedicated home theaters with proper audio setups and ethernet run to their DVD player think of them choosing Blu-Ray over HD-DVD.
> 
> JSP has never run out and bought the special edition movies for the behind the scenes looks, the director commentaries, nor have they run ethernet all over their house. They won't run out and buy $100 ethernet bridges so they can have Internet content on their DVD players. While all these things are great for the enthusiasts, they are a small number. I think harping on the Blu-Ray profiles and the expected "backlash" is a bit of making a mountain out of a molehill. But you never know... I suppose stranger things have happened and the Wal-Mart/Target/Best Buy purchasers of Blu-Rays may just scream and holler and never buy a BR movie again when they find out.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Chris


Exactly. Most people still have their HD players set to 480 output because they can't even figure that out. How many people have you seen watching "HD" content on TV from their non-HD source box, stretching it and saying, "Look, its in HD". That is probably about 75% of people with an HDTV, to think that higher end audio codecs are their concern or connecting their disc player to the internet or having a talking head PiP window on their movie...something tells me those things might be nice to haves, but for like 100 people who actually know what it is and have the know-how to make it work.


----------



## bobukcat

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/sony-announces-new-blu-ray-module-should-drive-down-costs/

Quote: "Sony has announced the development of a new Blu-ray reader / writer module that is not only smaller than previous components, but promises to be cheaper as well due to a simplified manufacturing process."

May bring down the cost of recorders / burners but unless there is a read-only sibling I don't see it impacting the majority of the US market for home theater as sales of DVD recorders is relatively weak.


----------



## texaswolf

RAD said:


> You're assuming that Toshiba will keep on selling their players at a loss in the hope that consumers will not notice that if they want to play HD media they're going to be severly limited in their choices of what movies that can view.


WHy not? Sony has been selling PS3's (the flagship player) at a loss since the beginning with a mandatory BR player, so that customers are automatically thrown into the HD market.

I found a new 20gb ps3 for a great price, which i will be getting and selling my 40gb "game console", so that i can actually use it for which it was intended, game play of ps2 and ps3 games (without having to switch back the the ps2 when i want to play)...sad that they raped the game portion to make it cheaper.

out of the two formats...consumer wise, i have to favor the HD camp....it's obvious they will lower prices without a problem, which allows more consumers to jump into the HD era....BR is stingy when it comes to dropping prices, and has issues with its formats...which doesn't farewell for it's founding supporters ...talk about how much extras don't matter all you want....but BR was supposed to be the "superior" format...you would think they would have everything working, since it's better "quality". I would expect the $99-$150 HDDVD players would have corners cut...not $400+ machines. I'm curious on what other corners will be cut, when (if) they lower BR player prices...the PS3 is a good example.

As far as quality of picture goes...it depends on the movie, but there is really no difference..my A2 upconverts dvds better than my PS3, but on HD disc, it goes back and forth.

in the end, i think Sony will be a downfall for all it's partners, money wise. Not saying they wont make profits at all, but they probably would have made much better earnings, if Sony wasn't heading the camp and "protection" area.


----------



## PTravel

texaswolf said:


> WHy not? Sony has been selling PS3's (the flagship player) at a loss since the beginning with a mandatory BR player, so that customers are automatically thrown into the HD market.


The PS3 is hardly the "flagship player" for BluRay. It's a game machine that has the ability to have a BluRay player grafted on. As much as a shock as it may seem to many people, not everyone plays games, nor is the target demographic for BluRay necessarily the same as for games.



> out of the two formats...consumer wise, i have to favor the HD camp....it's obvious they will lower prices without a problem,


I have both a BluRay and HD-DVD player, so I have no dog in this fight -- it doesn't matter to me who wins. However, it is unrealisic to say that Toshiba can lower prices "without a problem." Toshiba needs to recoup R&D and then make a profit on player sales. Artificially-low prices are not sustainable.



> As far as quality of picture goes...it depends on the movie, but there is really no difference..my A2 upconverts dvds better than my PS3, but on HD disc, it goes back and forth.


Your A2, like my A3, is a 1080i machine. My BDS-P300 is a 1080p machine, and it upconverts better than my A3.


----------



## bobukcat

PTravel said:


> Your A2, like my A3, is a 1080i machine. My BDS-P300 is a 1080p machine, and it upconverts better than my A3.


I'm curious, do you have a 1080P display, if so perhaps others that say the HDDVD player upconverts better than the PS3 are using 1080i or 720P displays?? Can those of you that get better results from your HDDVD players report what resolution displays you have and what model player you have?


----------



## RAD

texaswolf said:


> WHy not? Sony has been selling PS3's (the flagship player) at a loss since the beginning with a mandatory BR player, so that customers are automatically thrown into the HD market.


True, but Sony can make up some of the losses from selling games and BD movies. What can Toshiba use to offset the losses on their players?


----------



## Ghostwriter

PTravel said:


> Your A2, like my A3, is a 1080i machine. My BDS-P300 is a 1080p machine, and it upconverts better than my A3.


If you are getting better upconversion from your 300 then you have the wrong settings on the A3. It is more than a widespread fact that the toshibas are some of the best at upconversion.


----------



## Ghostwriter

RAD said:


> True, but Sony can make up some of the losses from selling games and BD movies. What can Toshiba use to offset the losses on their players?


Remember Toshiba still gets royalties from SD DVD sales.


----------



## texaswolf

Ghostwriter said:


> If you are getting better upconversion from your 300 then you have the wrong settings on the A3. It is more than a widespread fact that the toshibas are some of the best at upconversion.


Not to mantion the massive screen he must have to see the difference of 1080p


----------



## texaswolf

Ghostwriter said:


> Remember Toshiba still gets royalties from SD DVD sales.


and besides the fact that Toshiba isn't losing as much on each player as the Ps3, they also did not have to take out a $700 million loan to help fund the player, like Sony had to for the PS3...and lawsuits....combine that with payoffs for movie studios, (yes toshiba probably has those too), with the loss of money on cracked BD protection...thats a lot of money to make up.


----------



## RAD

Another take on the battle:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6832088-1.html?tag=nl.e702

_"But let's face facts. Unless something radically changes in the next few weeks or months--and it would have to be an almost unimaginable sea change, like Microsoft buying a couple of movie studios and forcing them to go HD DVD-exclusive--you're sitting on a depreciating investment. When Warner stops publishing its HD DVD titles in May, 70 percent of the studios will be aligned with Blu-ray, and it seems only a matter of time before the remaining HD DVD studios--Paramount and Universal--opt out of their exclusivity deals and jump ship. Under the new studio lineup, HD DVD simply isn't economically viable and the negative headlines have already taken their toll on HD DVD sales, with NPD data revealing that Blu-ray has grabbed 92.53 percent of hardware sales in the high-def disc player market from January 5 to January 12, just days after the Warner announcement."_


----------



## texaswolf

RAD said:


> Another take on the battle:
> 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6832088-1.html?tag=nl.e702
> 
> _"But let's face facts. Unless something radically changes in the next few weeks or months--and it would have to be an almost unimaginable sea change, like Microsoft buying a couple of movie studios and forcing them to go HD DVD-exclusive--you're sitting on a depreciating investment. When Warner stops publishing its HD DVD titles in May, 70 percent of the studios will be aligned with Blu-ray, and it seems only a matter of time before the remaining HD DVD studios--Paramount and Universal--opt out of their exclusivity deals and jump ship. Under the new studio lineup, HD DVD simply isn't economically viable and the negative headlines have already taken their toll on HD DVD sales, with NPD data revealing that Blu-ray has grabbed 92.53 percent of hardware sales in the high-def disc player market from January 5 to January 12, just days after the Warner announcement."_


not sure how it is a different take. It's obvious that studio wise, HDDVD is in trouble. Who knows what studio will decide to go neutral again, or jump...only money and time will tell...hopefully for the consumer...the war will go on for awhile.


----------



## texaswolf

On a side note...whats up with Warner and The Matrix Triolgy on BLu? you would figure that they would be one of the first things they would get out...it has been a high demand from BR owners....still no dates

had it on HD for almost a year now.


----------



## PTravel

bobukcat said:


> I'm curious, do you have a 1080P display, if so perhaps others that say the HDDVD player upconverts better than the PS3 are using 1080i or 720P displays?? Can those of you that get better results from your HDDVD players report what resolution displays you have and what model player you have?


I do have a 1080p display (a Toshiba Regza). I also suspect that, in a very short time, all displays will be 1080p. However, I have no idea how well a PS3 can upconvert. The PS3 is a game machine that can take a BluRay player as an accessory. I wouldn't expect it to upconvert (or do anything else) better than a player that is dedicated to the task.



Ghostwriter said:


> If you are getting better upconversion from your 300 then you have the wrong settings on the A3. It is more than a widespread fact that the toshibas are some of the best at upconversion.


Trust me, my settings aren't wrong. I suspect part of the difference is the A3's 1080i limitation. However, my BluRay player will also pass 24p (which my television can accept) without the need to do 3:2 pulldown. I haven't checked the specs on the A3, but I'd be surprised if a "budget" machine could do this (though I wouldn't be surprised if the A30 could).

Note, too, that the difference in quality between the two is barely noticeable (though it is noticeable, at least on my system). As I said, I have both a BluRay and HD-DVD player, and no qualms about upgrading to better ones as they're released, so I really have no dog in this fight. I do think it is rather pointless, however, to talk about a PS3 as if it is the sine qua non of Sony BluRay machines, just as it is pointless to compare a 1080i budget machine, like my A3, to a 1080p mid- to high-range machine. BTW, I'm very happy with the quality of my A3 -- it plays HD-DVDs beautifully. Also note, I have seen a number of truly appallingly bad transcodes in both HD-DVD and BluRay titles. A truly objective comparison would require viewing many titles on both machines. A bad transcode (grainy, blocky, color-banding, etc.) will look bad regardless of format.


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> Not to mantion the massive screen he must have to see the difference of 1080p


I can see the difference between 720p and 1080P on a 62" TV very easily, and I don't consider that "massive" - in fact I wish I had a 72" or larger!


----------



## bobukcat

PTravel said:


> I do have a 1080p display (a Toshiba Regza). I also suspect that, in a very short time, all displays will be 1080p. However, I have no idea how well a PS3 can upconvert. The PS3 is a game machine that can take a BluRay player as an accessory. I wouldn't expect it to upconvert (or do anything else) better than a player that is dedicated to the task.


Yeah, sorry about that, I meant to say BD player, not PS3. For what it's worth my PS3 upconverts slightly better than a Philips DVD player I have, but I don't have it hooked up to a 1080P display though so it's just doing 1080i.


----------



## texaswolf

PTravel said:


> I do have a 1080p display (a Toshiba Regza). I also suspect that, in a very short time, all displays will be 1080p. However, I have no idea how well a PS3 can upconvert. The PS3 is a game machine that can take a BluRay player as an accessory. I wouldn't expect it to upconvert (or do anything else) better than a player that is dedicated to the task.
> 
> Trust me, my settings aren't wrong. I suspect part of the difference is the A3's 1080i limitation. However, my BluRay player will also pass 24p (which my television can accept) without the need to do 3:2 pulldown. I haven't checked the specs on the A3, but I'd be surprised if a "budget" machine could do this (though I wouldn't be surprised if the A30 could).
> 
> Note, too, that the difference in quality between the two is barely noticeable (though it is noticeable, at least on my system). As I said, I have both a BluRay and HD-DVD player, and no qualms about upgrading to better ones as they're released, so I really have no dog in this fight. I do think it is rather pointless, however, to talk about a PS3 as if it is the sine qua non of Sony BluRay machines, just as it is pointless to compare a 1080i budget machine, like my A3, to a 1080p mid- to high-range machine. BTW, I'm very happy with the quality of my A3 -- it plays HD-DVDs beautifully. Also note, I have seen a number of truly appallingly bad transcodes in both HD-DVD and BluRay titles. A truly objective comparison would require viewing many titles on both machines. A bad transcode (grainy, blocky, color-banding, etc.) will look bad regardless of format.


Oh don't get me wrong, i don't have any issue with the way my ps3 plays...just that my A2 seems to do a better job upconverting. My "budget" machine was just that...grab it on a great sale and enjoy the movies on HD now (like the matrix trilogy, Transformers, ect.), instead of waiting for them to come out on Blu...if the war ended tomorrow, i would still have PLENTY of HDDVD's, that i got at a great deal, that i wont have to wait and buy on Blu.

I would suggest for anyone who has a PS3 alone, to check into getting a HD-A3...Amazon has them for $130 right now. Like us they can then enjoy ANY movie out on HD, instead of waiting for jumping studios to release them...grab it all while it's cheap...may not see low prices for a while if the war does indeed end.


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> I can see the difference between 720p and 1080P on a 62" TV very easily, and I don't consider that "massive" - in fact I wish I had a 72" or larger!


sorry, i was talking about 1080i vs 1080p difference.

I know what you mean, i have become used to my 56"...and now i think it's small ..........however the wife disagrees


----------



## RAD

texaswolf said:


> not sure how it is a different take.


I said "another take" not a "different take", two different things.


----------



## texaswolf

RAD said:


> I said "another take" not a "different take", two different things.


My apologies....just seems like all we keep hearing is the "doom and gloom" stories.

every time the red camp has something go wrong..."it's the end."

whenever something in the blu camp goes wrong..."it's no big deal"

I think Universal and Paramount will be just as stubborn about switching, as $ony is with DRM protection.


----------



## SteveHas

texaswolf said:


> and besides the fact that Toshiba isn't losing as much on each player as the Ps3, they also did not have to take out a $700 million loan to help fund the player, like Sony had to for the PS3...and lawsuits....combine that with payoffs for movie studios, (yes toshiba probably has those too), with the loss of money on cracked BD protection...thats a lot of money to make up.


Sony has stated recently that they have cut the manufacturing costs of the PS3 in half.
The units are now profitable, even at the new lowered price.
In fact there is word now that Sony will discontinue the 80 gig units, leaving the 40 gig as the only option.
This is expected to make the PS3 even more profitable due to economies of manufacturing scale.


----------



## mridan

New software sales stats ,week ending 1/20/2008

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/2...igh-def-market-share-for-week-ending-january/


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> Oh don't get me wrong, i don't have any issue with the way my ps3 plays...just that my A2 seems to do a better job upconverting. My "budget" machine was just that...grab it on a great sale and enjoy the movies on HD now (like the matrix trilogy, Transformers, ect.), instead of waiting for them to come out on Blu...if the war ended tomorrow, i would still have PLENTY of HDDVD's, that i got at a great deal, that i wont have to wait and buy on Blu.
> 
> I would suggest for anyone who has a PS3 alone, to check into getting a HD-A3...Amazon has them for $130 right now. Like us they can then enjoy ANY movie out on HD, instead of waiting for jumping studios to release them...grab it all while it's cheap...may not see low prices for a while if the war does indeed end.


I've come very close several times, just so I can rent more HD movies from Netflix, I have a 20% off any HD DVD or BD coupon from Best Buy sitting here and it's MIGHTY tempting.....


----------



## ebaltz

mridan said:


> New software sales stats ,week ending 1/20/2008
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/2...igh-def-market-share-for-week-ending-january/


Yep the Red ants can spin and spin all they want. Really the only thing that matters are the numbers and those stats. They say it all. Don't you think that the Univ and Para folks are starting to realize they are missing out on massive potential profits. I think they are. They owe it to their stockholders to at least go neutral.


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> I know what you mean, i have become used to my 56"...and now i think it's small ..........however the wife disagrees


I knew I married well: when I first took the HD plunge 5 years ago I thought mine would shoot down the 62" in favor of a 50" - boy was I wrong!! When we added a plasma to the bedroom I said "a 42 inch should do the job" - there is now a 50" Pioneer hanging there. We're finishing the basement and she wants to know why we can't get anything direct view bigger than 60" (without taking out another mortgage out on the house, that is)!! God, I LOVE that woman!!! :kisshead:


----------



## bobukcat

mridan said:


> New software sales stats ,week ending 1/20/2008
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/2...igh-def-market-share-for-week-ending-january/


They do make a good point that HDDVD hasn't had a new release in quite a while and about Paramount and Universal needing to release BIG TIME titles on the format for it to have a chance. This also makes me wonder though if maybe those two studios are sitting back and taking a couple of breaths to see how sales go for a few weeks before committing any more $$ into releases in the format. I also wouldn't be suprised if the executives have their lawyers briefing them on exactly what their contract for exclusivity allows them to do and at what price.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Yep the Red ants can spin and spin all they want. Really the only thing that matters are the numbers and those stats. They say it all. Don't you think that the Univ and Para folks are starting to realize they are missing out on massive potential profits. I think they are. They owe it to their stockholders to at least go neutral.


:lol: you crack me up with the fanboy stuff...owe their stockholders?

You must have $ony stock the way you defend the high prices and gouging of customers. If I remember right it was the "Blu ants" putting a big spin on Paramount going Red. You guys do just as much spinning as the red camp does...actually...maybe a little more with the $ony does no wrong defense.

See thats the beauty of owning both formats...you actually SEE what both players can do...instead of relying on $ony to tell you "the truth"...not to mention you wouldn't be so biased against something you have never experienced .



> Sony has stated recently that they have cut the manufacturing costs of the PS3 in half.
> The units are now profitable, even at the new lowered price.
> In fact there is word now that Sony will discontinue the 80 gig units, leaving the 40 gig as the only option.
> This is expected to make the PS3 even more profitable due to economies of manufacturing scale


.

They also boasted the 80% of ps3 owners use their BR players...up an amazing 40% from an independent study (also posted on engadget). You have to keep in mind what companies may "claim" in order to get better press in this war. Last i had heard they were selling the 40gb at cost....and that the Wii was the ONLY console making cash (and a lot of it). But lets say they do break even on the 40 gb cost....what did it cost consumers? They discontinued the 20gb and 60gb and introduce the 40gb...with NO BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY ...which means the stripped the game console in order to break even, while still getting the BR player numbers out there...so don't unhook that PS2 just yet! As a PS owner...i thank them very much for that:nono2:


----------



## SteveHas

http://www.psu.com/Sony-reduces-BD-lasers-and-cost-effectiveness-News--a0002538-p0.php


----------



## SteveHas

They also boasted the 80% of ps3 owners use their BR players...up an amazing 40% from an independent study (also posted on engadget). You have to keep in mind what companies may "claim" in order to get better press in this war. Last i had heard they were selling the 40gb at cost....and that the Wii was the ONLY console making cash (and a lot of it). But lets say they do break even on the 40 gb cost....what did it cost consumers? They discontinued the 20gb and 60gb and introduce the 40gb...with NO BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY ...which means the stripped the game console in order to break even, while still getting the BR player numbers out there...so don't unhook that PS2 just yet! As a PS owner...i thank them very much for that:nono2:[/quote]

Good point
BR users were low prior to Christmas shopping season (and new title releases), and the 40 gig was being sold at cost prior to re-engineering.
I'm not biased, don't really care, I bought my PS3 to play games, HD movies were a bonus.
I don't buy movies I only rent so I have no software investment either way.

However don't forget that consumers make their own choices, so all the press release in the world don't matter.
Example
A PS3 that is no longer backwards compatible will take itself out of the market if people really care about that feature.
Consumers won't buy it, and it goes away. 
Will that mean HD DVD wins?

In time the "truth" in all of this will come out in the wash as only one of these formats will live due solely to economic reasons not technical ones.


----------



## PTravel

Reminder: BluRay is not a synonym for PS3, and Sony's market isn't restricted to those who own the game machines. Making BluRay players available to PS3 owners was a brilliant marketing decision, but the target demographic for BluRay remains the same as the target demographic for HD-DVD: those who want to watch high-definition content distributed on a DVD format. It is not, those who play games and also want to watch movies.


----------



## SteveHas

PTravel said:


> Reminder: BluRay is not a synonym for PS3, and Sony's market isn't restricted to those who own the game machines. Making BluRay players available to PS3 owners was a brilliant marketing decision, but the target demographic for BluRay remains the same as the target demographic for HD-DVD: those who want to watch high-definition content distributed on a DVD format. It is not, those who play games and also want to watch movies.


true very true, but I would bet right now most of the BR players deployed are PS3s as the value proposition is much higher compared to a normal BR player


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> :lol: you crack me up with the fanboy stuff...owe their stockholders?
> 
> You must have $ony stock the way you defend the high prices and gouging of customers. If I remember right it was the "Blu ants" putting a big spin on Paramount going Red. You guys do just as much spinning as the red camp does...actually...maybe a little more with the $ony does no wrong defense.
> 
> See thats the beauty of owning both formats...you actually SEE what both players can do...instead of relying on $ony to tell you "the truth"...not to mention you wouldn't be so biased against something you have never experienced .
> 
> .
> 
> They also boasted the 80% of ps3 owners use their BR players...up an amazing 40% from an independent study (also posted on engadget). You have to keep in mind what companies may "claim" in order to get better press in this war. Last i had heard they were selling the 40gb at cost....and that the Wii was the ONLY console making cash (and a lot of it). But lets say they do break even on the 40 gb cost....what did it cost consumers? They discontinued the 20gb and 60gb and introduce the 40gb...with NO BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY ...which means the stripped the game console in order to break even, while still getting the BR player numbers out there...so don't unhook that PS2 just yet! As a PS owner...i thank them very much for that:nono2:


Say what you will, Sony hater boy, but blu-ray is winning in every way possible, even though Toshiba is trying to give away HD DVD players. You have no clue as to who I am or what I do or what I have or own because thats irrelevant. But that is your ONLY argument, one you make so loudly every time. I don't even need to make an argument, the data on sales is all that matters and Blu-ray is winning, and has been for over a year and that is undisputed. If you could stop hating Sony for 1 second of your life, maybe you could have a rational comment.

Now choke on this:

http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=5459


----------



## PTravel

SteveHas said:


> true very true, but I would bet right now most of the BR players deployed are PS3s as the value proposition is much higher compared to a normal BR player


Actually, that's a very interesting question. I'd be interested to know the proportion of BluRay owners who are/are not PS3 owners. Anyone know a source for the breakdown?

I don't doubt that there are an awful lot of PS3 owners who bought the add-on BluRay players. I guess that, deep in my heart, I don't believe (or don't want to believe), however, that it's the PS3-owning demographic that is driving high-def video sales.


----------



## Jason Nipp

You guys really do need to tone it down a bit. The discussion is fine, but name calling and constant arguing is not going to convince the other guy that he is wrong with his choice of support.

Agree to disagree without the name calling.

To contribute to the debate, I ask why is it Toshiba is the lone ranger of standalone set top HD-DVD players? Excluding the two combo units... I have only seen stand alone offerings from TOshiba... Why do they insist on not having any competition for hardware?

I am not much of a Sony guy myself, and that is harsh seeing I used to be an employee, but I like Sony's approach to opening up the hardware to other providers. Doing this allows for competition in both design and price.

I agree with ebaltz that Toshiba keeps lowering and lowering their price, this is of course an attempt to flood the market with hardware to try and pickup a larger user base. The last I heard both Sony and Toshiba were selling the equipment at a loss... I do not know if that is still true...


----------



## Jason Nipp

PTravel said:


> Actually, that's a very interesting question. I'd be interested to know the proportion of BluRay owners who are/are not PS3 owners.


That is an interesting question...


----------



## Drew2k

ebaltz said:


> Now choke on this:
> 
> http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=5459


What's there to choke on? The spike in Blu Ray sales is due to the steep discounts coupled with the Warner news before CES:


> Retailers this week, including Best Buy, Circuit City and Amazon.com are offering incentives to purchase high-definition content.
> 
> Amazon this week is offering Blu-ray disc titles as low as $14.99 and up to 53 percent off select Blu-ray disc titles.
> 
> In addition, it slashed prices for select HD DVD titles up to 53 percent off.


People who were ON the fence got a little prod from the Warner news, and resellers took advantage of the news by slashing prices to push product.


----------



## Ghostwriter

I am just amazed how whatever is happening on amazon is the gospel. Up 113% and up 90% sounds great, but it depends up 113% from what 50 sales? 100,200??? You can always manipulate the facts whoever you see fit.

Heck HD DVD players might be up 1000% in sales this week, does that mean that it is all over for blu ray??? Of course not!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jason Nipp said:


> To contribute to the debate, I ask why is it Toshiba is the lone ranger of standalone set top HD-DVD players? Excluding the two combo units... I have only seen stand alone offerings from TOshiba... Why do they insist on not having any competition for hardware?
> 
> I am not much of a Sony guy myself, and that is harsh seeing I used to be an employee, but I like Sony's approach to opening up the hardware to other providers. Doing this allows for competition in both design and price.


I don't really know... Back in the day, IBM tried to stem the tide of PC-clones but lost the major lawsuit and ultimately everyone and their brother then could make PC-compatible computers. This was great for the consumer, bad for IBM, but then in an odd way good for IBM later since it helped PCs become mainstream and ultimately still strengthened sales for IBM. Flip side, Apple didn't have any "clone wars" and controlled their stuff... but it became something of a niche market with lots of loyal Apple/Mac customers but small marketshare.

IBM also passed on the opportunity to buy MS-DOS (they ultimately developed their own) from Microsoft... and missed the subsequent chance to buy Windows as well. Apple, on the other hand, maintained their operating system in-house so they got a chunk of software and hardware.

PCs were easier to develop for as a result... I heard lots of horror stories from companies who stopped developing software for the Mac because it was so hard to deal with Apple and find out how to access various features inherent in the software/hardware.

And what about video games? Back in the day, when Atari was "the man"... they also sold a package to Sears whereby Sears sold a Sears-branded version of the Atari 2600 packaged with a different game than Atari's. A similar deal was arranged with Sears and the Intellivision. I believe Radio Shack also had a branded version of the Intellivision for a while as well... but other than that, it didn't seem to be a problem that only Atari made Atari hardware.

Microsoft has their Xbox, Sony has their Playstation, Nintendo has their Wii.. doesn't seem to be any issue that no other company makes compatible video game consoles.. and the prices for these consoles do come down over time.

So I'm not sure Toshiba vs Blu ray (in terms of hardware platform only) has to make a difference beyond just being a business choice. Toshiba has more control of the hardware market which could mean control over price OR control over quality/compatibility. Blu ray could lead to lower prices through competition OR more incompatibility as some players have different problems than others and no one central company can fix/address them all.

But I've never actually hear the rationale of why only Toshiba makes HD DVD standalones.


----------



## machavez00

Onkyo is/was slated to release an HD DVD player. RCA (Thomson) made one


----------



## RAD

machavez00 said:


> Onkyo is/was slated to release an HD DVD player. RCA (Thomson) made one


I thought it was determined that the Onkyo was just a rebadged Toshiba player.


----------



## SteveHas

This story seems to say that the issue of BR owners being left with obsolete machines once the new standards are released is a mute point to PS3 owners, and not so bad for stand alones.
I think that the PS3 represents an amazing piece of home electronics, gamer or not.
It is basically an home entertainment pc. This article confirms my personal belief.
(I respect the beliefs of others here I must add)

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9808376-1.html


----------



## PTravel

SteveHas said:


> This story seems to say that the issue of BR owners being left with obsolete machines once the new standards are released is a mute point to PS3 owners, and not so bad for stand alones.
> I think that the PS3 represents an amazing piece of home electronics, gamer or not.
> It is basically an home entertainment pc. This article confirms my personal belief.
> (I respect the beliefs of others here I must add)
> 
> http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9808376-1.html


Well, the article is a nice, objective explanation of the various BluRay standards and what they mean to consumers. However, it doesn't support your personal belief re: the PS3 (perhaps that's what happens with true believers  ).

The PS3 is an amazing piece of home electronics, yes. And it is a game machine. A home entertainment PC, i.e. a media PC, performs a variety of functions (which, by the way, include playing games). In addition to managing music, video and digital stills, it will also edit video, manipulate stills, and manage the transmission of all of this material across a LAN. As capable as a PS3 may be, it can't do all of this.

Believe me, I have nothing against the PS3, video consoles generally, games or gamers -- a focus of my legal practice is game developers, and I have a personal and professional commitment to the industry, which I find fun and exciting. However, as big as the game industry is, it's much, much smaller than the film industry, and the audience for games remains a subset of the audience for movies.


----------



## Lord Vader

SteveHas said:


> This story seems to say that the issue of BR owners being left with obsolete machines once the new standards are released is a mute point to PS3 owners...


What exactly is a "mute" point? Is that like real quiet? What's the opposite--a very loud point? A talkative point?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> What exactly is a "mute" point? Is that like real quiet? What's the opposite--a very loud point? A talkative point?


Sony would like it to be an ignored point.


----------



## Lord Vader

I always laugh when people use "mute" when "moot" should be used, or when they use "loose" when "lose" is correct.


----------



## Richierich

I guess I will wait for the Panasonic DMP-BD50 BluRay Player to come out!!!


----------



## chris0

PTravel said:


> Actually, that's a very interesting question. I'd be interested to know the proportion of BluRay owners who are/are not PS3 owners. Anyone know a source for the breakdown?
> 
> I don't doubt that there are an awful lot of PS3 owners who bought the add-on BluRay players. I guess that, deep in my heart, I don't believe (or don't want to believe), however, that it's the PS3-owning demographic that is driving high-def video sales.


I think that even if there was an accurate count of that it would get buried in all the other biased counts. I'm not sure what you mean by "add-on BluRay players" because there is no such thing for the PS3. It comes with one built in.

I'm over at AVSforums a lot and there seem to be a lot of people who have no intention of playing games and buy a PS3 for BR. I know AVS doesn't represent the average Joe usually but the percentage of people using it as a BR player seems to be pretty high.

If you ever do find those numbers, though, let us know. I think most of us would be interested in them.


----------



## ebaltz

PTravel said:


> Actually, that's a very interesting question. I'd be interested to know the proportion of BluRay owners who are/are not PS3 owners. Anyone know a source for the breakdown?
> 
> I don't doubt that there are an awful lot of PS3 owners who bought the add-on BluRay players. I guess that, deep in my heart, I don't believe (or don't want to believe), however, that it's the PS3-owning demographic that is driving high-def video sales.


THe PS3 doesn't have an "Add on" blu-ray player. It is built in from day one, as that is what PS3 games are on as well as blu-ray movies. IT is MS and their "bet hedging" XBOX that had the afterthough HD DVD player tossed in. Of those people I know with the XBOX, most have said if they don't make a Blu-ray add on they'll be getting a PS3.


----------



## ebaltz

chris0 said:


> I think that even if there was an accurate count of that it would get buried in all the other biased counts. I'm not sure what you mean by "add-on BluRay players" because there is no such thing for the PS3. It comes with one built in.
> 
> I'm over at AVSforums a lot and there seem to be a lot of people who have no intention of playing games and buy a PS3 for BR. I know AVS doesn't represent the average Joe usually but the percentage of people using it as a BR player seems to be pretty high.
> 
> If you ever do find those numbers, though, let us know. I think most of us would be interested in them.


Sony's poll of users said 87%. So whatever that means. Personally I bought mine as a blu-ray and AVCHD player. But I sure love the other stuff as well. ITs the best of all worlds.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

ebaltz said:


> Sony's poll of users said 87%. So whatever that means. Personally I bought mine as a blu-ray and AVCHD player. But I sure love the other stuff as well. ITs the best of all worlds.


I'd be interested in knowing how many people have a PS3 connected to a display capable of atleast 720p.


----------



## ccr1958

AlbertZeroK said:


> I'd be interested in knowing how many people have a PS3 connected to a display capable of atleast 720p.


i do


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Say what you will, Sony hater boy, but blu-ray is winning in every way possible, even though Toshiba is trying to give away HD DVD players. You have no clue as to who I am or what I do or what I have or own because thats irrelevant. But that is your ONLY argument, one you make so loudly every time. I don't even need to make an argument, the data on sales is all that matters and Blu-ray is winning, and has been for over a year and that is undisputed. If you could stop hating Sony for 1 second of your life, maybe you could have a rational comment.
> 
> Now choke on this:
> 
> http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=5459


Here's the difference...those of us on here with *both* talk objectively about the difference in quality and players...you on the other hand...who i am assuming only has BR (since i have asked, and you never answered, and your hatred towards the HDDVD format) have bashed HDDVD with almost every post in here, calling it garbage, and no comparison to BR, without even owning it...how is that rational?

I dont "hate" Sony, if you look at my sig, i have 2 Sony products (not counting previous PS systems). I DO however have issues with the way they deal with the consumer, go overboard with DRM protection to the point of spying on peoples computers, and the way they have stripped the game console (that i have always been a fan of) down to cut production cost, while making sure they keep the BR player a non-option. Does that mean i have to boycott the company and never buy from them? NO. I get them on sale...and not buy them at the full price. I don't really care for Micro$oft Corp. either, doesn't mean i can't use their products.

What you have or don't have has not been my "only" argument. I have posted several articles (from a BR supporting site) that contradict a lot of the rant you are spitting out. Others on here have also pointed out your "fanboyism" towards Sony and BR. You want the format to win so badly that you have bashed and insulted anyone speaking bad of Sony or BR, to the point of calling them "trailer park" for buying their High Def equipment at Wal-Mart or K-mart...again...rational? How many others on here that have *both* formats, that can watch *both* on a daily basis, say the quality of each format is roughly the same? Yet you continue to speak otherwise, only using one format. SO yeah, since you like to bash others for speaking against BR, i will call your bluff, as to where your getting facts, vs just simply wanting one side to win so badly, you feel the need to insult.

If you feel i am not being correct, we can go back and grab some of your post to remind you.

Relax dude...$ony isn't going to cut you a check for defending their honor.

Im telling you man, spend the $100 on an HDDVD player. Even some hardocre BR supporters I know are...they still think BR will win, but like they say $100 for a player, and they can enjoy the Matrix's and Transformers and other HDDVD exclusives now, instead of waiting for studios to release them or switch. Can't beat the deal Whats there to be worried about? BR has it in the bag anyway, right?


----------



## turey22

sorry you probably answered this already somewhere in here but i heard that all the movie companies are going with blueray now is that true? what is blueray?


----------



## Drew2k

turey22 said:


> sorry you probably answered this already somewhere in here but i heard that all the movie companies are going with blueray now is that true? what is blueray?


Wikipedia:

Blu Ray: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_ray

HD DVD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hd_dvd

Not all studios have gone Blu Ray ... Warner just announced they will go exclusively Blu Ray (starts in April, I believe), but Universal and Paramount are exclusively HD DVD.

See the Wikipedia articles above for more information and independent studios supporting each format.


----------



## turey22

thank u


----------



## DCSholtis

texaswolf said:


> Here's the difference...those of us on here with *both* talk objectively about the difference in quality and players...you on the other hand...who i am assuming only has BR (since i have asked, and you never answered, and your hatred towards the HDDVD format) have bashed HDDVD with almost every post in here, calling it garbage, and no comparison to BR, without even owning it...how is that rational?
> 
> I dont "hate" Sony, if you look at my sig, i have 2 Sony products (not counting previous PS systems). I DO however have issues with the way they deal with the consumer, go overboard with DRM protection to the point of spying on peoples computers, and the way they have stripped the game console (that i have always been a fan of) down to cut production cost, while making sure they keep the BR player a non-option. Does that mean i have to boycott the company and never buy from them? NO. I get them on sale...and not buy them at the full price. I don't really care for Micro$oft Corp. either, doesn't mean i can't use their products.
> 
> What you have or don't have has not been my "only" argument. I have posted several articles (from a BR supporting site) that contradict a lot of the rant you are spitting out. Others on here have also pointed out your "fanboyism" towards Sony and BR. You want the format to win so badly that you have bashed and insulted anyone speaking bad of Sony or BR, to the point of calling them "trailer park" for buying their High Def equipment at Wal-Mart or K-mart...again...rational? How many others on here that have *both* formats, that can watch *both* on a daily basis, say the quality of each format is roughly the same? Yet you continue to speak otherwise, only using one format. SO yeah, since you like to bash others for speaking against BR, i will call your bluff, as to where your getting facts, vs just simply wanting one side to win so badly, you feel the need to insult.
> 
> If you feel i am not being correct, we can go back and grab some of your post to remind you.
> 
> Relax dude...$ony isn't going to cut you a check for defending their honor.
> 
> Im telling you man, spend the $100 on an HDDVD player. Even some hardocre BR supporters I know are...they still think BR will win, but like they say $100 for a player, and they can enjoy the Matrix's and Transformers and other HDDVD exclusives now, instead of waiting for studios to release them or switch. Can't beat the deal Whats there to be worried about? BR has it in the bag anyway, right?


And they say Toshiba gives away players....:lol:

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/free_blu_ray_players_boosted_numbers/



> January 25, 2008 | by Rachel Cericola
> 
> Tech sites turned into battlegrounds again this week, when stats from an NPD report about Blu-ray sales were made public-and weren't supposed to be. Now NPD is speaking out.
> 
> Although the report was not ready for release, it stated (via BetaNews) that Blu-ray sales accounted for 93 percent of the high-def market during the week of January 12. *NPD doesn't say that the numbers are false, but admits that one week's sales are hardly a long-term indicator.
> 
> They also said that deals that bundled free Blu-ray players with TVs had a lot to do with the jump for Blu-ray. Sharp and Panasonic both had offers; Sony alone offered $400 off the two together.*


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> THe PS3 doesn't have an "Add on" blu-ray player. It is built in from day one, as that is what PS3 games are on as well as blu-ray movies.


This wanders off-topic a bit, but I'm curious... Are there really PS3 games released on Blu ray disc currently? I was honestly not aware of that.

I know many PS2 games still released on CD in the beginning because they simply didn't need the extra expense and size of DVD... so I would be similarly expecting most PS3 games early-on to still be releasing on DVD until they needed the extra space to jump to Blu ray.

Are there video games that actually need 25GB (Blu ray single layer) or more?


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> This wanders off-topic a bit, but I'm curious... Are there really PS3 games released on Blu ray disc currently? I was honestly not aware of that.
> 
> I know many PS2 games still released on CD in the beginning because they simply didn't need the extra expense and size of DVD... so I would be similarly expecting most PS3 games early-on to still be releasing on DVD until they needed the extra space to jump to Blu ray.
> 
> Are there video games that actually need 25GB (Blu ray single layer) or more?


I don't have many games for the PS3 but the ones I have, Motostorm (included with the console) and Uncharted: Drake's Fortune (an INCREDIBLE looking and fun game - btw!!) both say they are on BluRay Disc. I have no real way of confirming this, but don't know why they would miss-label them. I also have no real way of knowing how much space either one really takes on the disc. Uncharted is a moderately long game with a lot of great graphics and cool cut-scenes, but I don't know that it's any more immersive or layered than games I've played on DVD media.


----------



## Jason Nipp

HDMe said:


> This wanders off-topic a bit, but I'm curious... Are there really PS3 games released on Blu ray disc currently?
> 
> Are there video games that actually need 25GB (Blu ray single layer) or more?



15 of the PS3 games in my collection have the Blu Ray logo on them. Not sure that means they are Blu Ray format, but I assume that is what it means.
Um, not sure, all I know is my PS3 ran out of HDD space months ago and I will be upgrading the HDD soon. I like how Sony shipped a manual that shows how to replace the HDD etc... I think they kinda figured HDD's would fill up quickly.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> This wanders off-topic a bit, but I'm curious... Are there really PS3 games released on Blu ray disc currently? I was honestly not aware of that.
> 
> I know many PS2 games still released on CD in the beginning because they simply didn't need the extra expense and size of DVD... so I would be similarly expecting most PS3 games early-on to still be releasing on DVD until they needed the extra space to jump to Blu ray.
> 
> Are there video games that actually need 25GB (Blu ray single layer) or more?


I don't know how many are actually out that use that much space...but they are saying they have some in development that take up most of the 25 gb...Uncharted is said to take up most of a BR disc....it looks sweet though.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=68761

I do like the "it's not about the movies" line when taking about the BR player. I thinks it's funny how they will say the player was for game purposes, yet make sure it is counted towards "player" sales....and strip the new version console of certain gameplay ability.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/17/sony-on-blu-ray-for-ps3-its-got-nothing-to-do-with-movies/


> Eurogamer recently spoke with Sony president Phil Harrison about the PS3's controversial Blu-Ray adoption. While responding to criticisms of the storage technology being used primarily to push Sony's movie format war, Harrison defended: "It's got nothing to do with movies ... we need Blu-Ray to supply the kind of data that PS3 games use." Nothing to do with movies? We were under the impression your employer spearheaded the technology's acceptance? C'mon, Phil. Can't you budge just a little?


an old article, but shows you the change in direction during the war.


----------



## Jason Nipp

I can believe it takes up most of the 25Gb considering that there are a couple short demos I downloaded that took up 6Gb each.


----------



## Lord Vader

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sony would like it to be an ignored point.


Apparently, hdtv, I've earned the ire of a person who doesn't know the difference between "moot" and "mute" or "loose" and "lose".


----------



## ebaltz

Jason Nipp said:


> 15 of the PS3 games in my collection have the Blu Ray logo on them. Not sure that means they are Blu Ray format, but I assume that is what it means.
> Um, not sure, all I know is my PS3 ran out of HDD space months ago and I will be upgrading the HDD soon. I like how Sony shipped a manual that shows how to replace the HDD etc... I think they kinda figured HDD's would fill up quickly.


Many/most PS3 games are on blu-ray disc and take up almost the whole disc with content (like Drakes Fortune). That is the genius of the format. Allows for much better graphics, or longer games etc...and a blu-ray player, which in my opinion makes it far superior to the Piss (Wii) and the ExBox. They are more limited. Before long PS3 games will take up 50GB on dual layer discs. Naughty Dog, who made Uncharted, says they only began to tap the resources of the PS3 and will more fully utilize it in their upcoming releases. None of those games are going to fit on a format for the other gaming machines and very quickly developers for those machines will bump their heads on the limitations while the blu-ray format offers additional space and possibilities for at least the next few years of development and advancement.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Here's the difference...those of us on here with *both* talk objectively about the difference in quality and players...you on the other hand...who i am assuming only has BR (since i have asked, and you never answered, and your hatred towards the HDDVD format) have bashed HDDVD with almost every post in here, calling it garbage, and no comparison to BR, without even owning it...how is that rational?
> 
> I dont "hate" Sony, if you look at my sig, i have 2 Sony products (not counting previous PS systems). I DO however have issues with the way they deal with the consumer, go overboard with DRM protection to the point of spying on peoples computers, and the way they have stripped the game console (that i have always been a fan of) down to cut production cost, while making sure they keep the BR player a non-option. Does that mean i have to boycott the company and never buy from them? NO. I get them on sale...and not buy them at the full price. I don't really care for Micro$oft Corp. either, doesn't mean i can't use their products.
> 
> What you have or don't have has not been my "only" argument. I have posted several articles (from a BR supporting site) that contradict a lot of the rant you are spitting out. Others on here have also pointed out your "fanboyism" towards Sony and BR. You want the format to win so badly that you have bashed and insulted anyone speaking bad of Sony or BR, to the point of calling them "trailer park" for buying their High Def equipment at Wal-Mart or K-mart...again...rational? How many others on here that have *both* formats, that can watch *both* on a daily basis, say the quality of each format is roughly the same? Yet you continue to speak otherwise, only using one format. SO yeah, since you like to bash others for speaking against BR, i will call your bluff, as to where your getting facts, vs just simply wanting one side to win so badly, you feel the need to insult.
> 
> If you feel i am not being correct, we can go back and grab some of your post to remind you.
> 
> Relax dude...$ony isn't going to cut you a check for defending their honor.
> 
> Im telling you man, spend the $100 on an HDDVD player. Even some hardocre BR supporters I know are...they still think BR will win, but like they say $100 for a player, and they can enjoy the Matrix's and Transformers and other HDDVD exclusives now, instead of waiting for studios to release them or switch. Can't beat the deal Whats there to be worried about? BR has it in the bag anyway, right?


Please show me a statement I made that say what you claim I said. Show me. YOu claim I "hate HD DVD". Show me where I said that. I say that Blu-ray is superiour and winning the race. SHow me where I said it was "garbage". You say I don't own one, so therefor can't comment on it. Show me where I have said that. And then so no one is allowed to comment on something unless they own it? My blu-ray player is "spying on me"? SHow me where and how. Facts. My Sony camera is spying on me? Show me. Facts.

I don't "want" one side to win. One side has already won. The facts are there for all to see.

You spend your money on what you want. I'll spend mine on what I want. ANd from the looks of things, more people are spending their money on the same things I am spending my money on, preferring quality and future or the here and now fire sale items.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Guys.... Chill a bit, stop making the debate personal.... texaswolf and ebaltz, you need to stop making personal attacks, let it go.... or a vacation will be coming soon. 

I do not care who threw the first punch..........


----------



## elaclair

AlbertZeroK said:


> I'd be interested in knowing how many people have a PS3 connected to a display capable of atleast 720p.


Yup, 1080p here.....


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> Guys.... Chill a bit, stop making the debate personal.... texaswolf and ebaltz, you need to stop making personal attacks, let it go.... or a vacation will be coming soon.
> 
> I do not care who threw the first punch..........


Agreed...laying of personal stuff


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Many/most PS3 games are on blu-ray disc and take up almost the whole disc with content (like Drakes Fortune). That is the genius of the format. Allows for much better graphics, or longer games etc...and a blu-ray player, which in my opinion makes it far superior to the Piss (Wii) and the ExBox. They are more limited. Before long PS3 games will take up 50GB on dual layer discs. Naughty Dog, who made Uncharted, says they only began to tap the resources of the PS3 and will more fully utilize it in their upcoming releases. None of those games are going to fit on a format for the other gaming machines and very quickly developers for those machines will bump their heads on the limitations while the blu-ray format offers additional space and possibilities for at least the next few years of development and advancement.


Now some of this i will agree with you on...the wii is killing the other consoles in sales, because it is different and fun for the whole family...but it is nowhere near compared to a PS3/360 in the gaming dept. (nor was it meant to)My wife got the wii, i told her to enjoy...im sticking with the PS3...I'm hoping they do a good job on the new Socom coming out in June.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

bobukcat said:


> I don't have many games for the PS3 but the ones I have, Motostorm (included with the console) and Uncharted: Drake's Fortune (an INCREDIBLE looking and fun game - btw!!) both say they are on BluRay Disc. I have no real way of confirming this, but don't know why they would miss-label them. I also have no real way of knowing how much space either one really takes on the disc. Uncharted is a moderately long game with a lot of great graphics and cool cut-scenes, but I don't know that it's any more immersive or layered than games I've played on DVD media.


Thanks for all the replies on my inquiry to everyone.. I had to pick one to quote and reply, and bobukcat won because his avatar is Ashley Judd 

I too would assume if they say they are on Blu ray that they are. Wow. I've been out of video game buying for a while, and lost track of the space requirements. There were really high-quality games on the PS2 and I'm not sure the potential of that hardware was ever fully tapped... so I'm just stunned to know we are actually needing the Blu ray capacity already.

I remember there was a hard drive option in Japan for the PS2... but it never made it here in the US... although there were rumors that if you stuck an IDE drive in it (I tried with mine) and had the Japanese disc to format it then it would work.

I only ever played one movie on my PS2... and that was because my DVD standalone at the time had become a little dated and would not play some of the newer releases that had the more restrictive protection... so ultimately I was forced to upgrade to a new player to take care of that. But I do remember for a while the PS2 was heralded as one of the better DVD players as well.

So I'm not surprised to hear the PS3 being the best Blu ray player.

IF there had been no format war... one format to rule them all  Then I don't think the higher prices would be as much of an obstacle. But with the war, it became necessary for the prices to be lower to entice me to enter the fray like I did on the HD DVD side.

My gut keeps telling me, though, that perhaps both formats are ahead of their time and because of the war Blu ray might follow HD DVD (or whichever way around that turns out to be) quickly in being replaced.

I don't see downloads being the replacement... but perhaps a 3rd media format that comes war-free... or maybe an HD version of the PSP-style media instead of optical.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> Thanks for all the replies on my inquiry to everyone.. I had to pick one to quote and reply, and bobukcat won because his avatar is Ashley Judd
> 
> I too would assume if they say they are on Blu ray that they are. Wow. I've been out of video game buying for a while, and lost track of the space requirements. There were really high-quality games on the PS2 and I'm not sure the potential of that hardware was ever fully tapped... so I'm just stunned to know we are actually needing the Blu ray capacity already.
> 
> I remember there was a hard drive option in Japan for the PS2... but it never made it here in the US... although there were rumors that if you stuck an IDE drive in it (I tried with mine) and had the Japanese disc to format it then it would work.
> 
> I only ever played one movie on my PS2... and that was because my DVD standalone at the time had become a little dated and would not play some of the newer releases that had the more restrictive protection... so ultimately I was forced to upgrade to a new player to take care of that. But I do remember for a while the PS2 was heralded as one of the better DVD players as well.
> 
> So I'm not surprised to hear the PS3 being the best Blu ray player.
> 
> IF there had been no format war... one format to rule them all  Then I don't think the higher prices would be as much of an obstacle. But with the war, it became necessary for the prices to be lower to entice me to enter the fray like I did on the HD DVD side.
> 
> My gut keeps telling me, though, that perhaps both formats are ahead of their time and because of the war Blu ray might follow HD DVD (or whichever way around that turns out to be) quickly in being replaced.
> 
> I don't see downloads being the replacement... but perhaps a 3rd media format that comes war-free... or maybe an HD version of the PSP-style media instead of optical.


Ashley Judd in a hockey jersey at that!

One thing i miss with the ps2 is the mod chip in it! ...now to figure out the same for the ps3!Devil_lol


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> Thanks for all the replies on my inquiry to everyone.. I had to pick one to quote and reply, and bobukcat won because his avatar is Ashley Judd


Dude, I'm viewing this page on a 58" plasma and can't tell who that is in the avatar. How did you know it was Ashley?


----------



## bobukcat

Jason Nipp said:


> I can believe it takes up most of the 25Gb considering that there are a couple short demos I downloaded that took up 6Gb each.


Good point, I forgot how large those demos were! I thought the graphics in "Rainbow Six: Las Vegas" (I forgot I have that one and it is on BD as well) were great until I saw the Uncharted demo and then bought the game.


----------



## bobukcat

chris0 said:


> Dude, I'm viewing this page on a 58" plasma and can't tell who that is in the avatar. How did you know it was Ashley?


He has good taste????


----------



## Jason Nipp

chris0 said:


> Dude, I'm viewing this page on a 58" plasma and can't tell who that is in the avatar. How did you know it was Ashley?


I would guess it's all about resolution.... at 1280 x 1024 I can make out that it's a chick.

At 1152 x 864 I can see it's Ashley.


----------



## Jason Nipp

AlbertZeroK said:


> I'd be interested in knowing how many people have a PS3 connected to a display capable of atleast 720p.


I started off on a 1080i set, moved it to a 720p set... after the kids wore out the 720p Philips, I replaced it with a full 1080p 120hz display. I CAN really and honestly see a very big improvement moving from the 720p to the 1080p display with the PS3.

Someone else in this thread stated the PS3 may be the most reliable and superior Blu Ray player out there... I agree and disagree. The PS3 gets very regular firmware updates, but when comparing the PS3 to the BDP-S1, the BDP-S1 handles chapter transitions much smoother.


----------



## bobukcat

Jason Nipp said:


> I started off on a 1080i set, moved it to a 720p set... after the kids wore out the 720p Philips, I replaced it with a full 1080p 120hz display. I CAN really and honestly see a very big improvement moving from the 720p to the 1080p display with the PS3.
> 
> Someone else in this thread stated the PS3 may be the most reliable and superior Blu Ray player out there... I agree and disagree. The PS3 gets very regular firmware updates, but when comparing the PS3 to the BDP-S1, the BDP-S1 handles chapter transitions much smoother.


Are the load times on the BDP-S1 as fast as the PS3?? I haven't really had a good hands-on with that player and the other ones I've looked at in the past seemed to take forever to start a movie compared to the PS3, which is one of the factors that pushed it over the limit for me.


----------



## ebaltz

bobukcat said:


> Are the load times on the BDP-S1 as fast as the PS3?? I haven't really had a good hands-on with that player and the other ones I've looked at in the past seemed to take forever to start a movie compared to the PS3, which is one of the factors that pushed it over the limit for me.


Yeah I like the load time as well. Takes like 5 seconds. And I REALLY love the saved location feature now. When you stop a blu-ray and go do something else in the PS3 when you come back and press play to load the movie again, it goes right back to where you left off, no loading the pre-menus and warnings etc...that is a beautiful feature. Stand alones may or maynot have that, but it isn't super relative with a stand alone, since that is all it does. But with the PS3 you may watch a movie and then want to stop and do something else etc...when you come back and press play, bam its starts right where you left off.


----------



## ebaltz

http://www.1080living.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17


----------



## Jason Nipp

bobukcat said:


> Are the load times on the BDP-S1 as fast as the PS3??


 In the beginning.... No, but as firmware was updated, the BDP series is now faster on load times.... IMHO....


----------



## Jason Nipp

ebaltz said:


> ...I REALLY love the saved location feature now. When you stop a blu-ray and go do something else in the PS3 when you come back and press play to load the movie again, it goes right back to where you left off, no loading the pre-menus and warnings etc...that is a beautiful feature. Stand alones may or maynot have that...


 Yes, as long as you only hit the Stop button once, you can resume where you left off. If you hit Stop button more than once, then yes you must reload.


----------



## bobukcat

Okay, I added the Borg line to the end to paraphrase this article, nothing really new but Gartner is a respected analyst group - doesn't mean they are always right, but will probably put more heat on the HDDVD group trying to influence studio decisions:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/28/gartner-blu-ray-to-win-in-2008-hd-dvd-price-cuts-are-useless/

But here is the ABSOLUTE PROOF that HDDVD is dead: Woolworth is disontinuing sales of HDDVD because of the 10:1 advantage BD held in their stores during the holidays!!!! :lol: I didn't even know that Woolworth was still in business!


----------



## bobukcat

Jason Nipp said:


> In the beginning.... No, but as firmware was updated, the BDP series is now faster on load times.... IMHO....


Wow, if they are really faster that would be impressive performance as the PS3 hardly has any delay at all. It's good to hear it was fixed with only a firmware update (as opposed to having to buy a new player).


----------



## danman71

elaclair said:


> Yup, 1080p here.....


+1


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well I knew the "other" format would win as soon as I embraced one, I just didn't think it would be this fast.


----------



## bobukcat

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well I knew the "other" format would win as soon as I embraced one, I just didn't think it would be this fast.


Perhaps in the future you can sell your service as format doomsday machine to the highest bidder! !danger:


----------



## elaclair

bobukcat said:


> But here is the ABSOLUTE PROOF that HDDVD is dead: Woolworth is disontinuing sales of HDDVD because of the 10:1 advantage BD held in their stores during the holidays!!!! :lol: I didn't even know that Woolworth was still in business!


Actually Woolworth is still quite big in Europe. I haven't read the engadget article yet, but I'd be willing to bet that they're talking about the European Woolworth rather than the US Woolworth.


----------



## bobukcat

elaclair said:


> Actually Woolworth is still quite big in Europe. I haven't read the engadget article yet, but I'd be willing to bet that they're talking about the European Woolworth rather than the US Woolworth.


I forgot to include the link to the story: http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/28/woolworths-demoting-hd-dvd-players-to-online-sales-only/

It doesn't say anthing about Europe versus US but you may very well be correct. It also states that this move is only in the actual stores and internet buyers can still get either format.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

chris0 said:


> Dude, I'm viewing this page on a 58" plasma and can't tell who that is in the avatar. How did you know it was Ashley?


I'm at 1680x1050 on my 22" widescreen monitor... but there are clues. Obviously a woman, the guy posting is in Kentucky (Ashley goes to UK basketball games and is a big fan), you can see "Ju" on the back of her jersey... and actually I can see enough of her face to tell even without the other clues.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> http://www.1080living.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17


Circuit City is not "dumping" HD DVD players. It seems to be a regional thing at best, no one at CC corporate has said anything.

BUT, the most popular rumor is that perhaps some stores are trying to clear stock of the current HD DVD players that come bundled with 300 + Bourne Identity since Warner is dropping HD DVD soon... and that future HD DVD players will replace the Warner 300 movie with one from Paramount instead.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Toshiba is reported to be spending a gadzillion dollars on a Superbowl ad. I don't know if it will make a difference but if nothing else it says they're not laying down. 

What would it take at this point for HD DVD to pull it out of the fire? Assuming you think it's possible, what would have to happen?


----------



## Jason Nipp

Interesting thought Stuart, I see very little Blu Ray ads compared to HD-DVD ads/commercials. I am surprised Sony hasn't upped their ad budget.

I heard Superbowl ads are going for 1.3 mil for 30 seconds this year. Haven't looked to see if that is accurate, but knowing the source it's at least close.


----------



## RAD

Jason Nipp said:


> Interesting thought Stuart, I see very little Blu Ray ads compared to HD-DVD ads/commercials. I am surprised Sony hasn't upped their ad budget.
> 
> I heard Superbowl ads are going for 1.3 mil for 30 seconds this year. Haven't looked to see if that is accurate, but knowing the source it's at least close.


Wonder if it's a regional thing since I see more BD ad's down here, I don't remember the last time I saw a HD-DVD ad.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'll tell you what could do it IMO... and remember this is totally hypothetical:

Steve Jobs puts HDDVD burners in every Macintosh (possibly because he loses a bar bet with Bill Gates, I don't know why). He then exerts pressure on the board at Disney (on which he sits) to get their lawyers to challenge their BD exclusivity. 

In the meantime Disney floods the market with Disney HDDVDs, ABC TV shows (Lost in HD, etc.) and Pixar movies with real killer web-enabled features. He says he wants every home to have HDDVD and he engineers an iTunes streamer for HDDVD players. 

By the time the courts decide whether Disney's pulling out of the BD deal is legal, BD is dead like Jimmy Hoffa. 

Don't know why it would go down like that but if it did...


----------



## DCSholtis

Jason Nipp said:


> Interesting thought Stuart, I see very little Blu Ray ads compared to HD-DVD ads/commercials. I am surprised Sony hasn't upped their ad budget.
> 
> I heard Superbowl ads are going for 1.3 mil for 30 seconds this year. Haven't looked to see if that is accurate, but knowing the source it's at least close.


Toshiba is paying 3 million for their HD DVD/Superbowl spot.


----------



## Lord Vader

Jason Nipp said:


> Interesting thought Stuart, I see very little Blu Ray ads compared to HD-DVD ads/commercials. I am surprised Sony hasn't upped their ad budget.
> 
> I heard Superbowl ads are going for 1.3 mil for 30 seconds this year. Haven't looked to see if that is accurate, but knowing the source it's at least close.


Actually, it's _not _ close. A 30-second spot this year will cost *$2.7 million*.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Stuart Sweet said:


> Steve Jobs puts HDDVD burners in every Macintosh (possibly because he loses a bar bet with Bill Gates,...


Pardon my ignorance, but I thought Microsoft had a substantial interest in Apple and this occurred around the time Jobs was brought back??


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Mister Nipp, you make a very attractive point.


----------



## Jason Nipp

RAD said:


> Wonder if it's a regional thing since I see more BD ad's down here, I don't remember the last time I saw a HD-DVD ad.


Perhaps it is regional.... I see a lot of Toshiba ads here in my area. They flood football games here. During the New York Greenbay game I could swear every break had a Toshiba commercial.

Around these parts, many of the large AV dealers only advertise the Toshiba A3, with it comes the 1080i logo, and directly adjacent to that is a Blu Ray Player advertised with a huge 1080P Full HD logo. And it's usually the Panasonic BDP player that is next to it, not the Sony.

Just curious, how many models of the HD-DVD player actually support full 1080P and how many players are or were offered in only 1080i?


----------



## Jason Nipp

Lord Vader said:


> Actually, it's _not _close. A 30-second spot this year will cost *$2.7 million*.


Not trying to go off topic, but damn that's insane..... Did a bunch of clydesdales playing football or a homicidal iguana ever change your taste in beer? :nono2:


----------



## machavez00

the Swedish Bikini team came close though


----------



## HIPAR

Lord Vader said:


> Actually, it's _not _ close. A 30-second spot this year will cost *$2.7 million*.


If they make $50 per player they only need to peddle 54,000 players to break even. That would actually cut their loses by clearing out the supply pipeline. So why not go for it?

--- CHAS


----------



## Drew2k

Jason Nipp said:


> Interesting thought Stuart, I see very little Blu Ray ads compared to HD-DVD ads/commercials. I am surprised Sony hasn't upped their ad budget.


There are a lot of Blu Ray ads on HD-NET ... but that's the only place I've seen 'em.


----------



## kenn157

Yes on HD-Net


----------



## machavez00

Used to be the guy from The Sopranos Toshiba commercial


----------



## FogCutter

Forgive me if this has been posted already, but the WSJ reports that HD-DVD player sales fell 90% after Warner announced its exclusive production of Blu-Ray. Not so good for Toshiba.

Just for the record I bought my Toshiba the first week of December and my 5 free disks arrived today. So I'll spend the rest of the evening sitting through Troy. 

I'm waiting for the Panasonic BMP-BD50 to hit the market for my BluRay player. Nearly pulled the trigger on the BD30, but I think it will be worth waiting for the BD50.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Toshiba is reported to be spending a gadzillion dollars on a Superbowl ad. I don't know if it will make a difference but if nothing else it says they're not laying down.
> 
> What would it take at this point for HD DVD to pull it out of the fire? Assuming you think it's possible, what would have to happen?


To my way of thinking, several things that probably should have been done from the start could still be done now to take the market.

If combo discs became the norm, and no SD DVDs were produced from Universal/Paramount/whomever is HD DVD exclusive... then the cost-per-disc of the combos would come down significantly to produce and they could sell the DVD/HD DVD combos for the same price they sell the deluxe editions today. Without choice, the consumer would not be confused and would not have to pay more... One price gets the combo.

Then... the HD DVD players should be marketed against the DVD upconverters, with the lower prices now they are a much better buy than just an upconverter. Then once people see they already have HD DVDs in their hands (combos) it only makes sense to get the HD DVD player which also upconverts and take advantage of the HD movie they already have.

It's a vicious circle that feeds itself... and Blu ray can't make a combo disc to compete directly in that regard.

That is really what should have happened from the beginning... and it would make a transition to HD from regular DVD happen much sooner as the discs would be in people's homes already even before they buy the HD DVD player.

The problem now is... DVD for $15, deluxe edition for $20, HD DVD for $25 and HD combo for $35... no one wants the combo because it costs too much... and the DVD is still way cheaper if you are just getting into your new big screen TV and not yet spoiled to HD quality.

DVDs are in the millions per press... HD DVD (and Blu ray) have not sold more than 150,000 of any title thus far and that happened only a few times with some blockbusters... but a combo pressed as the only option in the millions per press could be sold for $20 and have all the stuff that the DVD would have + the HD DVD and consumers would just buy that one disc and have it all.

The studios are killing themselves, and HD, to some extent by all the choices of release of single/multi-disc/uncut/wide vs full/HD/Blu and some consumers just wait for the dust to settle while others go for the cheapest one.

Also, DVD customers are becoming more used to movies coming out for $20 but a couple of months later being on sale for $10 or $5 at stores like Best Buy. They would not have the same expectation of an HD format becoming that cheap in just a few months, so the higher retail price could be held longer than the DVD counterparts these days.


----------



## PTravel

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'll tell you what could do it IMO... and remember this is totally hypothetical:


And I'll go item by item and show you why I think this would never work.



> Steve Jobs puts HDDVD burners in every Macintosh (possibly because he loses a bar bet with Bill Gates, I don't know why). He then exerts pressure on the board at Disney (on which he sits) to get their lawyers to challenge their BD exclusivity.


What's in it for Disney, except potentially enormous liability for breach of contract? As a member of the board, Jobs' responsibility is to the Disney shareholders -- pressuring Disney would breach his fiduciary duty.



> In the meantime Disney floods the market with Disney HDDVDs,


I don't own a single Disney DVD, and I never will. Not everyone has kids, you know.



> ABC TV shows (Lost in HD, etc.)


I'm a HUGE fan of Lost -- I never miss an episode. And I have no interest in owning Lost DVDs (or HD DVDs). That's why I have an HD DVR -- so I can watch Lost on my schedule (and without commercials). I suspect the market for TV series on HD-DVD is really very limited.



> and Pixar movies


See above. Not everyone has kids, you know.



> with real killer web-enabled features.


And what would such a feature be? The overwhelming majority of DVD and high-def DVD viewers want to see the movie, and maybe a "making of" featurette or two. Internet-enabled features might appeal to . . . well, I don't know . . . gamers, maybe? I know gamers don't think so, but that's also a subset of people who watch movies on DVD. If you want to know how small, just count the sales of BluRay and HD-DVD players -- these are people who didn't get a PS3 or an Xbox, even though the costs were comparable to stand-alone players. Why do you think that is?



> He says he wants every home to have HDDVD


Jobs wants every home to have a Mac, too. That hasn't happened, either, and he's had a lot longer to try to achieve it.



> and he engineers an iTunes streamer for HDDVD players.


There are already many different ways to stream audio over a home theater system, and for free. Why would anyone want to stream iTunes, instead of their own music collection?



> By the time the courts decide whether Disney's pulling out of the BD deal is legal, BD is dead like Jimmy Hoffa.


I wonder what kind of damages Disney would be liable for if the contract were held valid? And, of course, the contract has already been vetted by both Disney and Toshiba -- do you really think Disney's breach would be in good faith?



> Don't know why it would go down like that but if it did...


It wouldn't go down like that and, even if it did, it wouldn't make any difference to the outcome. Incidentally, I have both a BluRay and HD-DVD player -- I don't care who wins this battle. In fact, I probably lean a bit more towards HD-DVD because of something that no one has mentioned here: Sony is so paranoid about piracy that many of its BluRay players will not play BD-R and BD-RE disks. My hobby is making travel videos and I just got an HDV camcorder. If there is ever an HD-DVD burner, I'll be able to burn my own HD-DVDs. However, even though there are BluRay burners, there's no point in my burning my own BluRay DVDs because my Sony BluRay won't play them. With both formats alive, Sony might have to give on this relatively minor feature. If it's the last man standing, however, it won't and I won't have a good distribution medium for my high-def video.

However, it sure looks like the handwriting's on the wall, doesn't it?


----------



## ebaltz

machavez00 said:


> Used to be the guy from The Sopranos Toshiba commercial


Seems to me Tony strangled him to death after the car he was driving crashed and burned. Hmmm, a nice metaphor for HD DVD. Now Tony (aka Blu-ray) time to make HD DVD sleep with the fishes. Fuggettaboutit.


----------



## chris0

Jason Nipp said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but I thought Microsoft had a substantial interest in Apple and this occurred around the time Jobs was brought back??


Microsoft owns shares of Apple? Are you sure?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes, they do. I would have to do the research but there was money that went back and forth when Microsoft and Apple found a way to continue supporting Office on Mac.


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> DVDs are in the millions per press... HD DVD (and Blu ray) have not sold more than 150,000 of any title thus far and that happened only a few times with some blockbusters... but a combo pressed as the only option in the millions per press could be sold for $20 and have all the stuff that the DVD would have + the HD DVD and consumers would just buy that one disc and have it all.


If combos had been offered as the only option then maybe it would've made a difference. But the combo discs seemed to be much more problematic on the HD DVD side than regular HD DVDs, especially once the finicky 3rd gen players were introduced.



HDMe said:


> The studios are killing themselves, and HD, to some extent by all the choices of release of single/multi-disc/uncut/wide vs full/HD/Blu and some consumers just wait for the dust to settle while others go for the cheapest one.


Studios have been double and triple dipping even when they were only releasing on DVD. It's unfortunately come to be common practice for studios to release a movie and then 6 months later release the director's cut or extended, unrated cut. Lord of the Rings, Fight Club, and Evil Dead are just a few that come to mind.



HDMe said:


> Also, DVD customers are becoming more used to movies coming out for $20 but a couple of months later being on sale for $10 or $5 at stores like Best Buy. They would not have the same expectation of an HD format becoming that cheap in just a few months, so the higher retail price could be held longer than the DVD counterparts these days.


True. The price of HD movies are much higher than necessary. BOGO's help though. And Remember, when DVD first came out, many titles were "priced for rental" at $99.

I don't know how much it costs to press a BR or HD DVD but I suspect it's only a few bucks a piece. Studios are a greedy lot and want to get as much profit as they can. Once the volume increases they'll be able to lower the price and increase their profit at the same time. That's been the case with VHS and CDs and DVDs and pretty much anything thats for sale.

To answer Stuat's question as to what could potentially save HD DVD: It doesn't matter how many players are out there. The studios don't make any money off of players. What matters is how many discs are sold and only a massive shift in studio support can change that now. But I don't see it going that way.


----------



## chris0

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes, they do. I would have to do the research but there was money that went back and forth when Microsoft and Apple found a way to continue supporting Office on Mac.


Don't do any extra work on my part, but if you happen to come across it I'd be interested to see it.


----------



## DCSholtis

It's funny that while the US has the combo discs more often than not you can import the same title for say the UK or wherever and not have to deal with the combo. Its the same as I've been saying as long as there are import titles for sale overseas HD DVD is alive and well. Case in point the Band Of Brothers set in HD DVD. Never been sold in HD in the US, I've had to import it from Japan and even over there it's getting scarce.


----------



## machavez00

chris0 said:


> Microsoft owns shares of Apple? Are you sure?


from 1997
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/longterm/microsoft/stories/1997/apple080797.htm


----------



## Jason Nipp

chris0 said:


> Microsoft owns shares of Apple? Are you sure?


According to the documentary Pirates of Silicon Valley..... Yes....


----------



## chris0

After hearing about it I tried to do some searching. I found a few older articles (like over 7 or 8 years old) talking about Microsoft getting 150,000 shares and a few financial forums (almost as old) where people said that those got cashed out long ago. I couldn't find anything definitive but it looks like Microsoft no longer owns any part of Apple.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> http://www.1080living.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17


Not big news here, it even states it in the article:

Circuit City in a *not so surprising move *has discontinued the HD-DVD format in favor of expanding it's Blu-Ray lineup.

*Circuit City-long a unofficial supporter of Blu-Ray has always carried HD-DVD in limited quantities vs. it's Blu-Ray inventory. *Sources say that this move is *not a direct response to Warner studios announcements* but more related to the lopsided sales makeup of Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD which in the past weeks has been 85:15 in favor of Blu-Ray says several industry sources



> Okay, I added the Borg line to the end to paraphrase this article, nothing really new but Gartner is a respected analyst group - doesn't mean they are always right, but will probably put more heat on the HDDVD group trying to influence studio decisions:
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/28...s-are-useless/
> 
> But here is the ABSOLUTE PROOF that HDDVD is dead: Woolworth is disontinuing sales of HDDVD because of the 10:1 advantage BD held in their stores during the holidays!!!! I didn't even know that Woolworth was still in business!


Keep in Mind that circuit city and Engadget are both supporters of Blu Ray...Time Warner also owns engadget like it owns Warner, and New Line. So info from these sites in favor of BR is never a surprise. Now when they announce non supporting news for BR it IS a surprise...and is usually more accurate. You won't find a "non biased" column on that site...and i check it out almost every day.

Circuit city going only Blu...is about as big of a surprise as K-mart going red...both have been on one side of the fence for awhile now. Now when places like Amazon, Netflix, and Best Buy go one format exclusive....that will be news. Companies don't make investment decisions on a few "past weeks" sales...they already had the plan set. Blockbuster made it seem like they they were going Blu...yet they carry both on their online rentals...and closing more and more stores. I was in two of them looking at games last week, and was sickened by the the BR selection...if your going to announce support for one format...put them out there...not just 10 titles. It will be over when it is over, not every time a company chooses a format.

I get more BR ad's down here...i see some HD, but not as much. I think HDDVD camp needs to make some kind of a move in the promotional/advertisement area...before BR has everyone thinking they don't have any other choice but to buy BR.


----------



## Mike728

Something I noticed: This week's Best Buy ad has zero Blu-ray offerings, but several HD-DVD's. The opposite is true of Circuit City's ad. They just have an ad for the A30 with 7 free HD-DVD's. 

Does anyone know of any new deals for Blu-ray players after their current 5 free BR offer expires on 1/31? I have to pick up 3 players for my parents in the next month.


----------



## RAD

Mike728 said:


> Something I noticed: This week's Best Buy ad has zero Blu-ray offerings, but several HD-DVD's. The opposite is true of Circuit City's ad. They just have an ad for the A30 with 7 free HD-DVD's.
> 
> Does anyone know of any new deals for Blu-ray players after their current 5 free BR offer expires on 1/31? I have to pick up 3 players for my parents in the next month.


Must be regional since for zip code 78737 there's a number of sections in the ad for Blu-Ray. Unless you're talking about software then the only software only add is for HD-DVD BOGO.


----------



## Mike728

RAD said:


> Must be regional since for zip code 78737 there's a number of sections in the ad for Blu-Ray. Unless you're talking about software then the only software only add is for HD-DVD BOGO.


Yes, I was referring to movies. :grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok, we don't really need to discuss Microsoft's current or former ownership of parts of Apple in a HD format discussion. We can return to the original topic. 

:backtotop:

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sirshagg

Mike728 said:


> Does anyone know of any new deals for Blu-ray players after their current 5 free BR offer expires on 1/31? I have to pick up 3 players for my parents in the next month.


Ok, I'll bite....

Why do the folks need 3 HD players?


----------



## Mike728

Sirshagg said:


> Ok, I'll bite....
> 
> Why do the folks need 3 HD players?


Long story, but I'll try and summarize.

They're having a new house built and it's being equipped with 20+ HD TV's throughout. Their installer bought them HD-DVD players, at my request in September, when the job was being bid on. After the recent news, I asked if they could be switched out for Blu-rays, since no equipment had been installed yet. The installer wasn't convinced Blu-ray was the way to go, but agreed that if I bought them he would have them installed.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mike728 said:


> Long story, but I'll try and summarize.
> 
> They're having a new house built and it's being equipped with 20+ HD TV's throughout. Their installer bought them HD-DVD players, at my request in September, when the job was being bid on. After the recent news, I asked if they could be switched out for Blu-rays, since no equipment had been installed yet. The installer wasn't convinced Blu-ray was the way to go, but agreed that if I bought them he would have them installed.


Wow! That sounds like my kind of house!  Now I have to ask, "only 3 blu-ray players?"


----------



## texaswolf

Mike728 said:


> Long story, but I'll try and summarize.
> 
> They're having a new house built and it's being equipped with 20+ HD TV's throughout. Their installer bought them HD-DVD players, at my request in September, when the job was being bid on. After the recent news, I asked if they could be switched out for Blu-rays, since no equipment had been installed yet. The installer wasn't convinced Blu-ray was the way to go, but agreed that if I bought them he would have them installed.


i would REALLY think about going with one format if they are doing that big of an big install...if they are sinking that much money into the house I would look into a couple of dual format players...that way they are safe no matter what happens. How are they doing the setup? certain players for certain tv's? or are they running them on switches?


----------



## Mike728

texaswolf said:


> i would REALLY think about going with one format if they are doing that big of an big install...if they are sinking that much money into the house I would look into a couple of dual format players...that way they are safe no matter what happens. How are they doing the setup? certain players for certain tv's? or are they running them on switches?


They're going strictly Blu-ray, as the HD-DVD players were returned. I thought about the dual players for them, but I wasn't real fond of what's currently on the market. This is their first venture into the HD scene, so they are starting from scratch. All the stuff is going to be networked, so 3 total was what the installer recommended for their needs.

It should be a nice setup. It's just too bad they'll be a 3 hour drive from me.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mike728 said:


> They're going strictly Blu-ray, as the HD-DVD players were returned. I thought about the dual players for them, but I wasn't real fond of what's currently on the market. This is their first venture into the HD scene, so they are starting from scratch. All the stuff is going to be networked, so 3 total was what the installer recommended for their needs.
> 
> It should be a nice setup. It's just too bad they'll be a 3 hour drive from me.


In Chicago that might be only 5 miles. 

Remember to send house warming tickets to your favorite moderators... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## BubblePuppy

I bought BD just because of the Disney Pirates movie....I would buy HD just because of Shrek. Really how many movies or tv shows would one actually purchase that one would view many times over


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'm over 300 in LD or DVD.


----------



## elaclair

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm over 300 in LD or DVD.


Tom, I'm at 320 just in LD, slightly over 650 in DVD...and only one duplicate title between the two formats, well, okay it's a 3-title set, but still. I've got some VERY esoteric stuff on laser......<smirk>


----------



## machavez00

elaclair said:


> Tom, I'm at 320 just in LD, slightly over 650 in DVD...and only one duplicate title between the two formats, well, okay it's a 3-title set, but still. I've got some VERY esoteric stuff on laser......<smirk>


Ginger and Tori?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

elaclair said:


> Tom, I'm at 320 just in LD, slightly over 650 in DVD...and only one duplicate title between the two formats, well, okay it's a 3-title set, but still. I've got some VERY esoteric stuff on laser......<smirk>


Only about 75 commercially purchased DVDs but 150 or so recorded ones.


----------



## Jason Nipp

I have several hundred DVD's.

Oh and the other post, I can see why someone would want more than one player in the house. I have more than one HDTV and I want to be able to enjoy HD movies on any one of them. I do echo texaswolf, that high end of an install, I'd buy the Samsung Dual HD player instead.


----------



## texaswolf

Mike728 said:


> They're going strictly Blu-ray, as the HD-DVD players were returned. I thought about the dual players for them, but I wasn't real fond of what's currently on the market. This is their first venture into the HD scene, so they are starting from scratch. All the stuff is going to be networked, so 3 total was what the installer recommended for their needs.
> 
> It should be a nice setup. It's just too bad they'll be a 3 hour drive from me.


you weren't fond of what was on the market as in what?

The main reason I mentioned the duals, is because you don't know when the war will REALLY be over...you can listen to guys on internet forums blabbing about one side or the other winning, but keep in mind those same guys have been doing it since the beginning of the war...different sites will favor different sides, and both sides will throw up ridiculous claims and numbers. So i would hate to see someone spend that much on networking players and that many tv's only to have to wait for certain movies to be re-released on BR.

what happens if they get all done, and then another studios pockets get lined enough to go red, or at least neutral? then there is a whole other collection of movies they may not be able to get.

i have a bud who put together a pricey media room, and I told him the same thing (he ended up just buying a player of each, along with a crap load of movies during the Amazon HD/BR movie sales). Now he is enjoying all the Big blu films like Pirates and Spideys, and all the Big reds like Transformers and Matrix. Everything released in HD is at his enjoyment.

Just food for thought...


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> I have several hundred DVD's.
> 
> I do echo texaswolf, that high end of an install, I'd buy the Samsung Dual HD player instead.


Yeah thats what i was thinking...Amazon even has th LG dual for $621

http://www.amazon.com/LG-BH200-Supe...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1201648451&sr=8-1

prices keep falling on those and it will put a whole new spin on the war


----------



## Mike728

texaswolf said:


> you weren't fond of what was on the market as in what?


There are only two that I know of, the LG and the Samsung. The LG has not had good reviews, but the new Samsung has potential. However, since it doesn't support some of the new Audio formats and isn't 2.0 BR upgradable, they (my parents) can wait.


----------



## elaclair

Mike728 said:


> There are only two that I know of, the LG and the Samsung. The LG has not had good reviews, but the new Samsung has potential. However, since it doesn't support some of the new Audio formats and isn't 2.0 BR upgradable, they (my parents) can wait.


I've read that Samsung is not going to follow up on that dual unit either. I would be leary of their current unit for that reason. With prices being what they are, I'd spend the small extra amount to get the Toshiba A35 as a supplement to whatever Blu-Ray player they get.


----------



## DCSholtis

Samsung has the 5500 coming out in May, seems that will be the entry model while the 5000 will continue to be the flagship.


----------



## texaswolf

elaclair said:


> I've read that Samsung is not going to follow up on that dual unit either. I would be leary of their current unit for that reason. With prices being what they are, I'd spend the small extra amount to get the Toshiba A35 as a supplement to whatever Blu-Ray player they get.


yep..i got sick of going to my friends house, watching any HD movie, then come home, and be limited on what i could watch...so i sprung for the HD player...now i can enjoy them all...you can't beat the deals right now.


----------



## bobukcat

Mike728 said:


> There are only two that I know of, the LG and the Samsung. The LG has not had good reviews, but the new Samsung has potential. However, since it doesn't support some of the new Audio formats and isn't 2.0 BR upgradable, they (my parents) can wait.


I think that's a wise choice, unless there are movies they just _have_ to watch in HD that are red exclusive - ride it out for a while and if the war looks like it's going to continue too long or starts to swing the other way their buy-in cost for the second player won't be that high (relative to 20 TVs and all the other equipment involved in the setup).


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> Circuit city going only Blu...is about as big of a surprise as K-mart going red...both have been on one side of the fence for awhile now. Now when places like Amazon, Netflix, and Best Buy go one format exclusive....that will be news. Companies don't make investment decisions on a few "past weeks" sales...they already had the plan set. Blockbuster made it seem like they they were going Blu...yet they carry both on their online rentals...and closing more and more stores. I was in two of them looking at games last week, and was sickened by the the BR selection...if your going to announce support for one format...put them out there...not just 10 titles. It will be over when it is over, not every time a company chooses a format.


What, my linked story about Woolworth dropping HDDVD wasn't enough to convince you?????


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> What, my linked story about Woolworth dropping HDDVD wasn't enough to convince you?????


:lol: ....it almost did....for a minute I was like..."oh dear god"
But i think it was shock that there was still some around!


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> I think that's a wise choice, unless there are movies they just _have_ to watch in HD that are red exclusive - ride it out for a while and if the war looks like it's going to continue too long or starts to swing the other way their buy-in cost for the second player won't be that high (relative to 20 TVs and all the other equipment involved in the setup).


thats why i was wondering how the guy was doing the setup...if it's a huge install with things hidden, or in a "media wall"....it might be a pain to add on things later instead of doing it all in the beginning...but if not, then it's no biggie. I agree with you on the titles...problem is...we don't know when warner and NL will roll out all of it's titles that are in HDDVD only, onto blu...then there is the other studios still with HDDVD. It's sounds like they are gong to have everything "convenient" as far as media viewing...might as well be convenient with any HD movie too. As Jason said, with that high end of an install, why wouldn't you? Unless they are under the that belief that the HDDVDs will melt if they the war.


----------



## Mike728

texaswolf said:


> Unless they are under the that belief that the HDDVDs will melt if they the war.


No, I know they won't self destruct. I'm keeping my 2 HD-DVD players and 40 disc's. My parents are getting up in age and just having one player playing one format is a good thing. I do enough tech support for them with their computers...:grin:


----------



## texaswolf

lol...nuff said, i am in the same boat with my folks


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> Yeah thats what i was thinking...Amazon even has th LG dual for $621...


My sister has the LG Super Blu, it can't display HD-DVD interactive menus, and is very slow on loads.

I have heard the Samsung HD-Duo u5000 is very nice and it works perfect with both formats. Also at CES Samsung demoed a lower cost model of the u5000.


----------



## Jason Nipp

DCSholtis said:


> Samsung has the 5500 coming out in May, seems that will be the entry model while the 5000 will continue to be the flagship.


Yup, 5500, this is the cheaper model that was at CES....


----------



## Jason Nipp

Mike728 said:


> There are only two that I know of, the LG and the Samsung. The LG has not had good reviews, but the new Samsung has potential. However, since it doesn't support some of the new Audio formats and isn't 2.0 BR upgradable, they (my parents) can wait.


 Wow.... Guess I should have read the next few posts before I started hitting the reply button.


----------



## jutley

Does anyone here have the Samsung 5000? I have been seriously considering buying it to replace my A20 and go neutral, but I have read mixed reviews. Just curious if anyone here has it what their thoughts are?


----------



## pez2002

Drew2k said:


> There are a lot of Blu Ray ads on HD-NET ... but that's the only place I've seen 'em.


i was watching bowfinger on UHD and i seen an hd-dvd add and a blu ray add right after it they are making it confusing for people


----------



## Jason Nipp

I saw a BD ad on Discovery Channel HD last night.


----------



## DCSholtis

Jason Nipp said:


> My sister has the LG Super Blu, it can't display HD-DVD interactive menus, and is very slow on loads.
> 
> I have heard the Samsung HD-Duo u5000 is very nice and it works perfect with both formats. Also at CES Samsung demoed a lower cost model of the u5000.


And thats because LG didn't bother to get its specs OK'd by the HD DVD people.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DCSholtis said:


> And thats because LG didn't bother to get its specs OK'd by the HD DVD people.


Kinda like Sony decided to play "specification roulette" with Blu Ray, but now after a couple years, they finally have some with v1.1.

Too bad the hundreds of thousands of BD units now sold and in the market will never be able to support the new features gonig forward. 

What do these things have in common?

Renegade corporate cultures that come back to haunt customers later.


----------



## GrumpyBear

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Kinda like Sony decided to play "specification roulette" with Blu Ray, but now after a couple years, they finally have some with v1.1.
> 
> Too bad the hundreds of thousands of BD units now sold and in the market will never be able to support the new features gonig forward.
> 
> What do these things have in common?
> 
> Renegade corporate cultures that come back to haunt customers later.


I have decided to NEVER watch a pip feature on a BD or HD-DvD player, after watching a VH1 Classic Pop-Up video. The Manic Video has forever been ruined for me because of the pop-video, granted I already new that there was a dance double in several of the Flashdance scenes, what I DID NOT need to know, is the scene where she is dancing running in place, and you just see it from the waist down and she is all in black with a black background and they focus on her thighs and butt, that it wasn't a FEMALE body double but a guy body double. THere are just somethings I just don't need to know, just let me enjoy it instead.


----------



## texaswolf

GrumpyBear said:


> I have decided to NEVER watch a pip feature on a BD or HD-DvD player, after watching a VH1 Classic Pop-Up video. The Manic Video has forever been ruined for me because of the pop-video, granted I already new that there was a dance double in several of the Flashdance scenes, what I DID NOT need to know, is the scene where she is dancing running in place, and you just see it from the waist down and she is all in black with a black background and they focus on her thighs and butt, that it wasn't a FEMALE body double but a guy body double. THere are just somethings I just don't need to know, just let me enjoy it instead.


WELL THANKS A LOT PAL!!!

............now i cant watch it anymore:nono:


----------



## DCSholtis

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Kinda like Sony decided to play "specification roulette" with Blu Ray, but now after a couple years, they finally have some with v1.1.
> 
> Too bad the hundreds of thousands of BD units now sold and in the market will never be able to support the new features gonig forward.
> 
> What do these things have in common?
> 
> Renegade corporate cultures that come back to haunt customers later.


Yep I got a cripped Blu Ray player the day it was bought. That's why I lean red so much in my HD preferences. I guess I'm the odd one because I do enjoy the extra goodies with HD DVDs. I love the imports and all that too. Don't get me wrong I love my Blu player too but my A3 is spec'd out now and for the future.


----------



## texaswolf

DCSholtis said:


> Yep I got a cripped Blu Ray player the day it was bought. That's why I lean red so much in my HD preferences. I guess I'm the odd one because I do enjoy the extra goodies with HD DVDs. I love the imports and all that too. Don't get me wrong I love my Blu player too but my A3 is spec'd out now and for the future.


I enjoy the extras also, not on every movie, but defiantly on my favorites...extra scenes, and director cuts are really nice option to have.


----------



## DCSholtis

texaswolf said:


> I enjoy the extras also, not on every movie, but defiantly on my favorites...extra scenes, and director cuts are really nice option to have.


You planning on getting the German Import of Terminator 2? That is supposed to be loaded with extras plus a complete remaster.


----------



## bobukcat

DCSholtis said:


> Yep I got a cripped Blu Ray player the day it was bought. That's why I lean red so much in my HD preferences. I guess I'm the odd one because I do enjoy the extra goodies with HD DVDs. I love the imports and all that too. Don't get me wrong I love my Blu player too but my A3 is spec'd out now and for the future.


My favorite type of "extra feature" was always the cast and crew bios and filmographies but those are almost extinct on any new DVD. I know you can get all that information from IMDB but there are times during a movie when I'll see an actor / actress and not be able to remember what else they were in, and it bugs the crap out of me until I can go look it up. If it's on the disk it's a simple trip back to the main menu and then I can go back to watching the movie in peace. If they include this type of connected content (presumably retrieving the information from IMDB over the internet connection) on BDLive or HDDVD it would be something I would REALLY be interested in. Deleted scenes and gag reels are great too but those are present on most of the BDs (and DVDs) I have seen without any need for connectivity.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Your 1080i image should look great.

That said, be aware that Blu Ray is about to release its next generation specifications - better known as v1.1, which will not be backwards compatible on most current Blu Ray players of any brand. 

What this means is that some features found in new BD disks going forward may not work on some BD players in the marketplace today. I'm not usre how the PS3 is affected, but know that the new standard requires both hardware and firmware changes in the new players coming to market in late March and beyond


----------



## ebaltz

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Your 1080i image should look great.
> 
> That said, be aware that Blu Ray is about to release its next generation specifications - better known as v1.1, which will not be backwards compatible on most current Blu Ray players of any brand.
> 
> What this means is that some features found in new BD disks going forward may not work on some BD players in the marketplace today. I'm not usre how the PS3 is affected, but know that the new standard requires both hardware and firmware changes in the new players coming to market in late March and beyond


PS3 is not effected it is already 1.1 and will be 2.0 and whatever else comes along.


----------



## Jason Nipp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...better known as v1.1, which will not be backwards compatible on most current Blu Ray players of any brand.


And for the standalone players, I have seen several firmware updates already, I find it hard to believe that a patch will never be available. I have had several already for my BDP-S1. And even more for my PS3.

Although I do try to stay neutral, please do us all a favor and do not make comments like something will not be backwards compatibility or will not work until it has really happened and/or there is indisputable data to back up the comment. I am an engineer, so I am very much data driven..... I do apologize if I come off abrasive, but it is a big pet peeve of mine to have a factual statement made before it has sufficient data to support the claim/argument.

Having said that, perhaps your right, but there is still a chance your not. That being said you made the statement as if backward compatibility would never be corrected, and that has yet to be proven. The BD Player vendors know better than to kill half it's user base at this stage of the game... And in my opinion that's exactly what would happen if suddenly all the players that they struggled to get onto the market suddenly couldn't play movies....


----------



## GrumpyBear

_Profile 1.0 vs. Profile 1.1

There are several different hardware requirements (see the chart below), but it basically boils down to picture-in-picture functionality. All Blu-ray players up until this point have been Profile 1.0 and have lacked the secondary video and audio decoders necessary to play a smaller video in the corner while also playing the main high-def movie in the background. With the notable exception of the Sony PlayStation 3, Profile 1.0 players cannot be upgraded via firmware to become Profile 1.1 players.

Because Profile 1.0 players lacked this functionality, movie studios have understandably not included picture-in-picture functionality on any current Blu-ray disc. Fox has announced that it will release its first Profile 1.1-enabled disc, Sunshine, in the first quarter of 2008. And as more Profile 1.1 players become available, we expect more Profile 1.1 discs to be released._
Here is a link as well
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9808376-1.html

As you can see, Profile 1.0 or better known as GRACE PERIOD Profile machines will not be able to be upgraded to 1.1 or 2.0 Profiles. I do believe though, that NEWER Blu-Ray movies will still play on Grace Period 1.0 for sometime to come. Down the road, who knows. EOL is right around the Corner for 1.0 and then they only have to support 1.0 for 12months afterwards. With all the issues they have had and have used firmware to resolve issue, down the Road, having stating from the get go, that Profile 1.0 was and is Grace Period format, early adoptors "could" be in for a nasty surprise, all the talk about Java wont help, this is a phyical issue that firmware can't fix. 
Lots of the features being included in 1.1 and 2.0 are already included in HD-DVD, but I am not sure how useful some of these features are to the avg user are on any format. Will also be interesting to see how the 1gb issue will be handled on PS3, format the internal addon with a 1gb partion, or add a 1gb addon. Once again only a gamebox is upgradable, single provider, hmm, lots of complaint from the BD people about a single provider Toshiba for HD-DVD, and here we go with a gamebox from a single provider being the only NON-dead in. Just like HD-DVD, Profile 1.0 Graceperiod will always play the current movies and newer movies for sometime, all moves released until 1.0 is EOL, after that...... Who knows.


----------



## Jason Nipp

And that was a much better explanation, thank you.

Now to ask, this means the early adopters will not be able to use PiP, but it does not say the movie will not play, is this correct?


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jason Nipp said:


> And that was a much better explanation, thank you.
> 
> Now to ask, this means the early adopters will not be able to use PiP, but it does not say the movie will not play, is this correct?


Correct, its the "enhanced features" that wont work on Profile1.0, and ongoing enhanced features will also not work on Profile1.0, not sure how much of a lose that really is.
Personally when I watch a Movie I watch it to watch the movie, not to hear a bunch of talk about the movie making. Granted they may add some cool features in the download content I may like, and the Avg Joe as well. Cool features yes, I just don't see myself using them though. Now granted HD-DVD players, had all these features built in from the beginning. My problem from the get go with BD(other than Sony) was the term Grace Period Profile, your always are leary about 1.x anything, but calling a new system Grace Period, and nowing full well the the spec for 2.0 was already in the works. What a complete sham of the BD makers putting out devices that wouldn't support new features, yet telling everybody that the great BD-Java would keep thier devices from being outdated. Granted once Sony gets on the ball and adds feedback to there gamebox, some more good titles, that I can't get on Xbox360(looks like early summer). I may use that as a Blu-Player, but it needs to come up to speed as a gamebox 1st. Granted lots of people don't want a gamebox, or add a device that uses a Bluetooth remote so you can't use it with your really cool Master remote. So they will have a device that can't be upgraded, or will have to buy a new system down the road, Just like the HD-DVD people.


----------



## Cholly

For those contemplating buying a Blu-Ray Disc player, here is a link to our sister site's list of Profile 1.1 and Profile 2.0 players both on the market and soon to come. There are also some links to sites having better lists.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=977963


----------



## Jason Nipp

GrumpyBear said:


> ...or add a device that uses a Bluetooth remote so you can't use it with your really cool Master remote. So they will have a device that can't be upgraded, or will have to buy a new system down the road, Just like the HD-DVD people.


Actually, I know several people that have the PS3 running off a Pronto. It takes some searching the Internet, but there are full instructions on how to accomplish this. I think AVS had a thread on this. Basically you have to go to eBay and find a certain rev PS2 USB IR remote set, the module and remote.

I agree, when I thought I was stuck with Bluetooth remote only I was peeved... Even more peeved when I realized I could not just shut down the darn guitar from GH3.... It an USB RF module, it is not Bluetooth. So if I want to switch to a sixxaxis and play something else I have toB disconnect the USB module first, or at least have it look for another address so I can get the sixxaxis to find remote address 1.

All this said, I am still very happy with the product.

Again I try to remain neutral, but my opinion toward Toshiba changed when everyone was trying to sell HD-DVD players as full HD when they were only 1080i. The 1080p units weren't available until several months after it was already on the market. These same people try to argue there is no difference between 1080i and 1080p, but these are the same people yet again that argued progrgressive scan was better than interlaced even at 720p... People seem to forget the arguements of the past after they invest in a technology.

And I bring this up not to jump into the argument here, but to balance it a bit. I see alot of bad mouthing BD, but not as much people want to confront that there were hardware hypes and issues on the other side. I have never ever seen a new product introduction that did not have its bugs. Annoyances are part of being an early adopter, and most of the fights I see here and elsewhere, are more defending ones choice then anything else. I do not see as much argument from the people who have both. We all have our reasons for making a choice.

I will echo again that I think the fight is more about studios picking sides that the competence of the formats. I'd really like to see what happens if you could get what ever movie you wanted in either format.... I think that would be a fair fight.


----------



## texaswolf

DCSholtis said:


> You planning on getting the German Import of Terminator 2? That is supposed to be loaded with extras plus a complete remaster.


really? I might have to check it out.


----------



## Cholly

There is a dongle available that handles the remote situation. I've seen it on newegg amongst other places.

As to Toshiba and 1080p -- Toshiba went to market with their early models (HD-A1 and HD-XA1) before the 1080p bandwagon got rolling. They followed quickly with the HD-xA2, which is 1080p compliant. Also, all HD DVD players have supported features from the beginning which will be available on Blu-ray Disc players commencing with profile 2.0 support. There are no such players currently available, although several are forthcoming within the next few months.

There are fanboys for both camps. I, for one, bought HD DVD because it was less expensive and had more mature technology. The Blu-ray prices still linger at $150 or more above HD DVD, and at $250 or more for profile 1.1 compliant players.


----------



## jutley

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered the Samsung 5000 yesterday. I'll receive it today (thanks Amazon Prime  ). It's hard for me to admit that I am going neutral, but I couldn't hold out any longer and it's driving my wife nuts that I keep telling her she can't buy movies that are on Blu-ray and not HD-DVD.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Cholly said:


> There is a dongle available that handles the remote situation. I've seen it on newegg amongst other places.
> 
> As to Toshiba and 1080p -- Toshiba went to market with their early models (HD-A1 and HD-XA1) before the 1080p bandwagon got rolling. They followed quickly with the HD-xA2, which is 1080p compliant. Also, all HD DVD players have supported features from the beginning which will be available on Blu-ray Disc players commencing with profile 2.0 support. There are no such players currently available, although several are forthcoming within the next few months.
> 
> There are fanboys for both camps. I, for one, bought HD DVD because it was less expensive and had more mature technology. The Blu-ray prices still linger at $150 or more above HD DVD, and at $250 or more for profile 1.1 compliant players.


No entirely true Charlie, the majority the the HD-DVD players are still the current 1080i offerings because of the price point. If you step up to Toshiba's 1080p offering, at lease the retailers out in my neck of the woods have both camps 1080p offerings selling for the same price point.

I did not know about the dongle solution, gotta check that out.

After tax return, I am looking to buy a u5000. I am not in just one camp, though I do lean in one direction. I am one of the believers that this war is not over yet.


----------



## Jason Nipp

I think this thread is very close to being a spin off of the HD verses blue thread. Chris was stern about not having splinter threads. So I am going to copy these posts into the main thread and close this one. Again the dialog is being copied to the other thread so no one start rattling the he closed the thread to end on his point stuff.

*
Please note several posts have just been copied into this thread as Chris Blount is serious about only having one HD verses Blu thread. So if anything looks out of place that is why.*


----------



## Jason Nipp

jutley said:


> Well, I bit the bullet and ordered the Samsung 5000 yesterday. I'll receive it today (thanks Amazon Prime  ). It's hard for me to admit that I am going neutral, but I couldn't hold out any longer and it's driving my wife nuts that I keep telling her she can't buy movies that are on Blu-ray and not HD-DVD.


Please please please post your experiences with the u5000 here. I am very interested in this unit as I am also looking to buy one. I have heard several others ask about it as well.


----------



## elaclair

Jason Nipp said:


> *
> Please note several posts have just been copied into this thread as Chris Blount is serious about only having one HD verses Blu thread. So if anything looks out of place that is why.*


Thanks Jason....though I was seeing double there for a minute.....


----------



## Jason Nipp

Ya, I was waiting for someone to beat me up about the other thread skewing off topic rapidly.

There is definately a lot of passionate people in both camps...


----------



## texaswolf

jutley said:


> Well, I bit the bullet and ordered the Samsung 5000 yesterday. I'll receive it today (thanks Amazon Prime  ). It's hard for me to admit that I am going neutral, but I couldn't hold out any longer and it's driving my wife nuts that I keep telling her she can't buy movies that are on Blu-ray and not HD-DVD.


I understand after having to explain it to my wife over and over.

Nice setup:righton: All you needed was a PS3, then you would have all the game consoles and formats...

Let us know how you like the 5000


----------



## ebaltz

For the third straight week since Warner Brothers announced they would exclusively support Blu-ray, the format has held a commanding lead in high definition movie sales. Home Media Magazine has released Nielson VideoScan First Alert data, and Blu-ray held 82% of the high definition market during the week ending January 27th.

Also, for the third straight week, all of the Top 10 sellers in high definition are Blu-ray. This week's top seller was newly released 'Saw IV', followed by 'The Game Plan' and '3:10 to Yuma'.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> For the third straight week since Warner Brothers announced they would exclusively support Blu-ray, the format has held a commanding lead in high definition movie sales. Home Media Magazine has released Nielson VideoScan First Alert data, and Blu-ray held 82% of the high definition market during the week ending January 27th.
> 
> Also, for the third straight week, all of the Top 10 sellers in high definition are Blu-ray. This week's top seller was newly released 'Saw IV', followed by 'The Game Plan' and '3:10 to Yuma'.


Too bad it isn't helping Sony out......they're stock is taking a dump!pusht!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=afHC9uKX5uXE&refer=japan


----------



## elaclair

texaswolf said:


> Too bad it isn't helping Sony out......they're stock is taking a dump!pusht!
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=afHC9uKX5uXE&refer=japan


It's not just Sony, pretty much ALL TSE stocks are down due to sub-prime loan worries in the US. Incidentally, Toshiba closed just off it's 52 week low having lost nearly 50% of it's value since August.

Sony US closed UP slightly over 1% today......


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> For the third straight week since Warner Brothers announced they would exclusively support Blu-ray, the format has held a commanding lead in high definition movie sales. Home Media Magazine has released Nielson VideoScan First Alert data, and Blu-ray held 82% of the high definition market during the week ending January 27th.
> 
> Also, for the third straight week, all of the Top 10 sellers in high definition are Blu-ray. This week's top seller was newly released 'Saw IV', followed by 'The Game Plan' and '3:10 to Yuma'.


Percentages are one thing... but how many actual titles have they sold? Blu ray + HD DVD don't even show up on the total media pie chart unless you break out the decimal points some weeks because DVD sales are so overwhelmingly the majority of sales.

Also worth noting... What has HD DVD actually released in January? Blu ray has released a couple of good movies in Jan, so I'm personally surprised they don't have 100% sales. The fact that already existing HD DVD movies are selling enough to show up when matched against day/date Blu ray actually tells a story too.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe, all true. Yet this "war" is not about DVD vs. HD/Blu. DVD _will_ be replaced at some point.

Something to consider: Blu outsold HD every week last year. Both hardware and software. (Even with PS3 taken out, tho not by much.)

And a commanding lead every week this year. Toshiba isn't giving up and few people are seriously declaring the war over. It just looks very bad for HD's immediate future.

That said, I'm not declaring a winner either. I'm still waiting.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Too bad it isn't helping Sony out......they're stock is taking a dump!pusht!
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=afHC9uKX5uXE&refer=japan


Blu-ray does not equal Sony. (Many other studios and hardware manufactures)

So your "observation" is basically irrelevant. But we know you hate Sony. So its not a surprise.


----------



## Jason Nipp

ebaltz said:


> Blu-ray does not equal Sony. (Many other studios and hardware manufactures)
> 
> So your "observation" is basically irrelevant. But we know you hate Sony. So its not a surprise.


ebaltz, I said no more attacks!

Yes Blu doesn't necessarily = 100% profit for Sony.... But please account for who gets the royalties. Every disc or device sold with a BD logo on it = some profit for Sony in the form of royalties... and the same is true for Toshiba and the HD-DVD logo. That being said Toshiba is still the only current supplier of stand alone hardware, so we can attribute a larger portion of profit for hardware to Toshiba.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> HDMe, all true. Yet this "war" is not about DVD vs. HD/Blu. DVD _will_ be replaced at some point.


That's the part I'm not completely sure I agree with, at least not with currently employed strategies.

What ultimately helped CDs kill albums was companies making them more attractive to retailers. I remember the old Record Bar franchise, and I was still buying albums there... and I spoke with a manager once about how their album section was shrinking. Basically there came a point where unsold CDs were returnable vs albums being non-returnable... so the retailers found it more attractive to try CDs since there was no risk on their part. Albums were all risk, so quickly became small stock and special order only.

At this point, the studios seem unwilling to make a similar push for either HD DVD or Blu ray vs DVD. Even with all the major studio support seemingly in favor of Blu ray, there is still virtually the same amount of HD DVD and Blu ray releases thus far. None of the movie studios seem to want to risk their strong DVD sales to push the new HD formats. Unless and until they do that (similar to the digital cutover for OTA TV), their best customers will likely remain DVD customers for years to come.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ebaltz said:


> PS3 is not effected it is already 1.1 and will be 2.0 and whatever else comes along.


Too bad (for Sony) most PS3'ers don't buy BD disks, they rent.


Jason Nipp said:


> And for the standalone players, I have seen several firmware updates already, I find it hard to believe that a patch will never be available. I have had several already for my BDP-S1. And even more for my PS3.
> 
> Although I do try to stay neutral, please do us all a favor and do not make comments like something will not be backwards compatibility or will not work until it has really happened and/or there is indisputable data to back up the comment. I am an engineer, so I am very much data driven..... I do apologize if I come off abrasive, but it is a big pet peeve of mine to have a factual statement made before it has sufficient data to support the claim/argument.


FACT IS that all existing Blu Ray players (except PS3) don't support Ethernet connections, nor will they be able to support some of the new codecs and Java updates in the Blu Ray v1.1 standards.

Feel free to go to the Sony Blu Ray site - there is plenty there on the v1.1 standard, not to mention 100 other websites.

Once new BD disks are released under the new v1.1 standard, the stuff will hit the fan. If people choose to bury their heads in the sand on this, fine, but what will happen will happen.


----------



## Jason Nipp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Too bad (for Sony) most PS3'ers don't buy BD disks, they rent.


 Where did that tid bit of information come from? I haven't rented anything, I own, not sure I know anyone with a PS3 that rents... This sounds more like an opinion then a fact, can you cite your source please?



hdtvfan0001 said:


> FACT IS that all existing Blu Ray players (except PS3) don't support Ethernet connections, nor will they be able to support some of the new codecs and Java updates in the Blu Ray v1.1 standards.
> 
> Feel free to go to the Sony Blu Ray site - there is plenty there on the v1.1 standard, not to mention 100 other websites.
> 
> Once new BD disks are released under the new v1.1 standard, the stuff will hit the fan. If people choose to bury their heads in the sand on this, fine, but what will happen will happen.


I could care less about PiP director commentary, all I care about is being able to watch the movie, which to my understanding will work fine weather its 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 or any other acronym anyone wants to throw at it.


----------



## RAD

Jason Nipp said:


> Where did that tid bit of information come from? I haven't rented anything, I own, not sure I know anyone with a PS3 that rents... This sounds more like an opinion then a fact, can you cite your source please?


I for one rent the majority of my disc's for my PS3's. And if you check the NetFlix threads you'll see there's a good number of folks with HDM and NetFlix is having problems keeping enough discs in the chain and many folks have long or very long waits for HDM movies.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe said:


> That's the part I'm not completely sure I agree with, at least not with currently employed strategies.
> 
> What ultimately helped CDs kill albums was companies making them more attractive to retailers. I remember the old Record Bar franchise, and I was still buying albums there... and I spoke with a manager once about how their album section was shrinking. Basically there came a point where unsold CDs were returnable vs albums being non-returnable... so the retailers found it more attractive to try CDs since there was no risk on their part. Albums were all risk, so quickly became small stock and special order only.
> 
> At this point, the studios seem unwilling to make a similar push for either HD DVD or Blu ray vs DVD. Even with all the major studio support seemingly in favor of Blu ray, there is still virtually the same amount of HD DVD and Blu ray releases thus far. None of the movie studios seem to want to risk their strong DVD sales to push the new HD formats. Unless and until they do that (similar to the digital cutover for OTA TV), their best customers will likely remain DVD customers for years to come.


Recall: 1) CDs didn't replace albums in their first generation either. 2) DVDs didn't replace VHS in its first generation. Do you really expect Blu or HD to replace DVDs in their first generation?

And I did knowingly give myself a bit of wiggle room. There is some good consideration that DVDs will not be replaced by another optical medium at all. DVDs will definitely be replaced. I personally think it will be an optical medium, and more likely Blu at this point (but I'm still holding out on purchases). Yet that replacement of DVD might be short lived as other distribution mechanisms appear.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jason Nipp

RAD said:


> I for one rent the majority of my disc's for my PS3's. And if you check the NetFlix threads you'll see there's a good number of folks with HDM and NetFlix is having problems keeping enough discs in the chain and many folks have long or very long waits for HDM movies.


Don't get me wrong, I am sure some people rent, but the statement of "the majority" well statements like that catch my interest. It could be an unfounded assumption, or it could be a documented fact, at which case there should be somewhere I can look to see stats.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Add to that, does the ratio of DVD renters to buyers change with Blu or HD? There are lots of DVD renters too, tho I won't possibly try to characterize the many/most/some-ness of the situation.


----------



## mridan

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Once new BD disks are released under the new v1.1 standard, the stuff will hit the fan. If people choose to bury their heads in the sand on this, fine, but what will happen will happen.


My player is 1.1,and I know2.0 with an ethernet connection will be next,but it doesn't bother me.First off I do not really get into all that extra stuff,I just want to watch a movie with the best possible picture and sound.I enjoy my Panny BD30but I know it won't be the last Blu-Ray player I buy.Since the first days of DVD,I've gone thru three dvd players,is everybody still using the same dvd player they purchased five plus years ago?My first dvd player was a Mitsubishi ,it cost me $300.00 and it couldn't play burned music discs.I don't think the stuff will hit the fan,consumers will just go out and buy a new player,besides it's not like the newer Blu-Ray discs won't play in the older players,they just won't be able to access the extra features on the disc(some but not all).By the way the PS3 in my sig is my daughters,she loves playing games and watching movies in hd,but since the PS3 is upgradeable that will probably be her first and last Blu-Ray player.


----------



## Cholly

Jason Nipp said:


> No entirely true Charlie, the majority the the HD-DVD players are still the current 1080i offerings because of the price point. If you step up to Toshiba's 1080p offering, at lease the retailers out in my neck of the woods have both camps 1080p offerings selling for the same price point.


Jason: Amazon is selling the HD-A30 for $158 and the HD-A35 for $220 -- both significantly cheaper than any Blu-ray players.

BTW: It appears that the Samsung BD-UP5000 is only profile 1.0 compatible. The forthcoming BD-UP5500 (5050?) is profile 2.0.
According to some other forums, some of the 1.1 and 2.0 titles that the studios plan will not play on profile 1.0 players.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> Recall: 1) CDs didn't replace albums in their first generation either. 2) DVDs didn't replace VHS in its first generation. Do you really expect Blu or HD to replace DVDs in their first generation?


No, and that is why I still sit on the fence in terms of thinking either side will "win". I bought HD DVD during Black Friday sales... but otherwise would be still on the fence. Even with that purchase, I don't see either Blu ray or HD DVD making the kind of strides that encourage me to think either format will be here in a few years.

CD and albums were pretty much the only competition... DVD and VHS similarly by that point... but HD DVD and Blu ray are competing against cable/satellite delivered high quality HD, as well as those folks who frankly don't see the difference and are ok.

CD had immediate advantages over album, even besides apparent sound quality.. CD had features of 8-track like ability to jump to a specific track that albums couldn't beat.. and CDs had a theoretical longer life than albums plus greater portability.

DVDs offered higher quality than VHS, portability, and no rewinding!

HD DVD and Blu ray really only offer better quality... and while to those of us who really really want that quality this is great! To many folks, it simply is not a differentiator enough to warrant throwing extra money at it and buying all your movies over again.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> Add to that, does the ratio of DVD renters to buyers change with Blu or HD? There are lots of DVD renters too, tho I won't possibly try to characterize the many/most/some-ness of the situation.


We had a VHS player way way back in the day... started in the late 1970s with our first one. At that time we joined an early rental membership that for about $300 for the year, we could take home any 3 movies and keep them for up to 3 days.. and we could keep coming back as much as we wanted every 3 days. So for that year, we rented 3 movies about every other day for the whole year. Got our money's worth for sure and watched pretty much every non-adult movie that existed in VHS format.

After that, we slowed down a bit... but we did have a Blockbuster membership and I rented VHS on and off over the years and even rented a videogame or two from there.

But... since buying my first DVD player back in the 1990s... I have never rented a single DVD. I watched on cable if I wasn't sure about a movie before buying... buy new releases day/date for stuff I really want, and wait for sales for the rest... but I've never been motivated at all to rent since rentals on DVDs were never as "cheap" comprared to purchase price as VHS back in the day.

VHS rentals were a few bucks per movie back in the day... but movies were coming out $99+ for purchase back then! DVDs started at a much lower price-point, and by the time I'd adopted $20-$25 to own the movie vs $3-$5 to rent it... it just made sense to go ahead and buy movies instead of renting for me.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mridan said:


> My player is 1.1,and I know2.0 with an ethernet connection will be next,but it doesn't bother me.


OK.

...but I suspect a fair number of folks may think differently....time will tell....


----------



## texaswolf

Personally if i paid $400 or more for a player and that thing didn't do everything the movie was meant to do...I'd be ticked. Especially since it's claiming to be the "superior format". Thats a lot of money to have corners cut on options, whether i use those options or not.


----------



## DCSholtis

texaswolf said:


> Personally if i paid $400 or more for a player and that thing didn't do everything the movie was meant to do...I'd be ticked. Especially since it's claiming to be the "superior format". Thats a lot of money to have corners cut on options, whether i use those options or not.


I'm glad I got my BDP as a gift or I would be super upset since I DO use those options afforded to me by HD DVD.


----------



## chris0

All this talk about older BD players being "crippled" and such or upsetting the masses isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be. Is it much different than anything else in the AV arena? My first HD TV was a 35" Sony 1080i 4:3 set that only had DVI, no HDMI. It displayed a beautiful HD picture (still does, it's in the bedroom.) I also had a receiver with no HDMI inputs. I bought a PS3 and an A35 and could still have enjoyed HD movies with surround sound with my older equipment, it would have looked great and sounded great. 

But technology had moved forward since I made the TV and receiver purchases. I could have been mad that technology pushed past what I owned, I could have been happy with the perfectly functional setup I had, or I could have chosen to upgrade. I chose to upgrade to a new plasma and a new receiver because I wanted more.

I know some of you will say that HD DVD was ready from the start, but the fact is that those who are buying into HDM are buying more BD hardware and more BD software than the HD DVD side. Consumers are choosing Blu-Ray, even with the higher player prices. Going from DVD to BD they're not going to miss what profile 2.0 offers because they never had it to begin with. And there's nothing in profile 2.0 that should keep movies from being played on a profile 1.0 player, they just won't get the extra stuff. (Before anybody focuses in on that and brings up examples of older BD players not playing newer movies, keep in mind that Toshiba had to issue FW updates to the 3rd gen players for the same reason. Studios and player manufacturers aren't always on the same page in both camps.)

Once profile 2.0 players become available some will be happy with their perfectly functional equipment, some will be mad that the newer technology has more to offer than what they own, and others will upgrade. This is nothing new to electronics and I think most consumers understand that.

And as so many have rightly pointed out, HDM is still pretty much a niche market. Profile 2.0 players are almost here and if the market starts adopting HDM more fully, and the pendulum keeps swinging Blu-Ray's way, the late adopters will be getting the full package. In the long run prices will come down on players and movies, and people will be replacing their DVD players in the living room, bedroom, kids room, etc. with Blu-Ray players and it won't matter that the kids room only has the old profile 1.0 player in it.

My apologies for such a long post.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Well said posts rarely feel long... 

That reminds me that my earliest, most expensive and largest TV does not do 720p or 1080p and has no digital inputs of any sort. I'm going to be very angry at the manufacturer when HDCP is required on all content. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mridan

What happened to the 30 second HD DVD commercial that was supposed to air during the Super Bowl?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't know. There was a local spot for HDDVD (Ironically it was in SD). Maybe they pulled it.


----------



## elaclair

A quick search on the internet turned up posting after posting that said that Toshiba had purchased (past tense) a 30 second ad. If they did, I wonder why it didn't air? It's not like there wasn't time slots available, a couple of the national ads did get a repeat near the end......


----------



## mridan

Here's some info on that HD DVD Super Bowl commercial

www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1410


----------



## hdtvfan0001

chris0 said:


> All this talk about older BD players being "crippled" and such or upsetting the masses isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be.


I wonder if all those folks who spent tons of $$$ this past holiday season will agree....Sony has done it again....

Remember how I was saying that those Blu Ray buyers were about to get stranded with their boxes, not supporting various new BD disk feature going forward...

http://www.tvpredictions.com/bluitv020308.htm

Is this where I get to say "I TOLD YOU SO"? 

Ok....maybe not. :lol:


----------



## HIPAR

I'm confused about this profile thing. Tell me the truth. Do these 'crippled' players play the movie? Will they play future releases?

If someone can direct me to a $200 'unfinished' Blu-ray player in a dusty box I'll buy it now if it plays the movie. I'm not going to diddle with ancillary features; I'd rather use my time watching movies.

--- CHAS


----------



## dhhaines

HIPAR said:


> I'm confused about this profile thing. Tell me the truth. Do these 'crippled' players play the movie? Will they play future releases?
> 
> If someone can direct me to a $200 'unfinished' Blu-ray player in a dusty box I'll buy it now if it plays the movie. I'm not going to diddle with ancillary features; I'd rather use my time watching movies.
> 
> --- CHAS


Yeah, I'm with you. Just put out a player that PLAYS the movie in HD for under $200 and people will buy it. I can't think of one DVD with an "extra" disc that I've actually watched. The masses just want to watch the movie at the best resolution for the best price. Until the studio's figure this out there will be no "standard" HD player. HD DVD and BLU RAY are both anemic when it comes to sales compared to plain old DVD. And I own players for all three formats.


----------



## elaclair

HIPAR said:


> I'm confused about this profile thing. Tell me the truth. Do these 'crippled' players play the movie? Will they play future releases?
> 
> If someone can direct me to a $200 'unfinished' Blu-ray player in a dusty box I'll buy it now if it plays the movie. I'm not going to diddle with ancillary features; I'd rather use my time watching movies.
> 
> --- CHAS


At this point in time, EVERY BD player in release will play ALL currently released or announced BD titles. Going forward existing 1.0 and to some extent 1.1 profile players MAY have difficulty with extended features, but will still play the movie.

OTOH, if you buy a player that noone is manufacturing software (movies) for, THEN you have a brick.......


----------



## Jason Nipp

mridan said:


> What happened to the 30 second HD DVD commercial that was supposed to air during the Super Bowl?


I was wondering the same thing. but then again, my local affiliate did play a lot of local ads... I thought there was a limit to the number of local ads during major sporting events?


----------



## Sirshagg

dhhaines said:


> Yeah, I'm with you. Just put out a player that PLAYS the movie in HD for under $200 and people will buy it. I can't think of one DVD with an "extra" disc that I've actually watched.


My thoughts as well.


----------



## Jason Nipp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Remember how I was saying that those Blu Ray buyers were about to get stranded with their boxes, not supporting various new BD disk feature going forward...


Stranded huh, seems to me that some of you may have a DVR that is a little DLB impaired, Does that make you Stranded?..... 

Hey, that list you linked does not list the BDP-S1, and this is the first release model... But ya, I am pretty sure it will not work the profile 2.0 PiP features... I do agree with that, and again, all I care about is being able to watch the movie.

You guys keep making it sound like the box will be worthless, it will still work, it just won't be able to play some of the enhanced features. Please stop making it sound like the box will be scrap after profile 2.0.

http://129.33.22.12/release/BDPS1_upgradeinfo.pdf


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I saw the Toshiba ad, it aired locally on FOX11, but in SD. I thought to myself, this couldn't be it, right?


----------



## machavez00

link to HD DVD ad
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news...ting/Video:_HD_DVD_Super_Bowl_Commercial/1430


----------



## machavez00

1/2 price sale at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&plgroup=1&docId=1000195491&plpage=1


----------



## DCSholtis

Jason Nipp said:


> Stranded huh, seems to me that some of you may have a DVR that is a little DLB impaired, Does that make you Stranded?.....
> 
> Hey, that list you linked does not list the BDP-S1, and this is the first release model... But ya, I am pretty sure it will not work the profile 2.0 PiP features... I do agree with that, and again, all I care about is being able to watch the movie.
> 
> You guys keep making it sound like the box will be worthless, it will still work, it just won't be able to play some of the enhanced features. Please stop making it sound like the box will be scrap after profile 2.0.
> 
> http://129.33.22.12/release/BDPS1_upgradeinfo.pdf


Jason with all due respect in my opinion it WILL be worthless. After seeing all the features I currently enjoy with my A3 (extras ect.), your darn right I feel as if my BDP-S300 while not worthless since it still plays movies in the future as far as being able to access the net and being able to take advantage of certain features I agree with hdtvfan0001 that Sony screwed everyone in a money grab putting these players out before finalizing standards. While I still buy and support Blu, I find myself buying more import HD DVDs of movies that are Blu domestically strictly for extra features.


----------



## Mike728

DCSholtis said:


> Jason with all due respect in my opinion *it WILL be worthless*. After seeing all the features I currently enjoy with my A3 (extras ect.), your darn right I feel as if *my BDP-S300 while not worthless *since it still plays movies in the future .


----------



## BudShark

I've decided to throw my truck, dishwasher, oven, computers, microwave, refrigerator, washing machine and dryer away.

Why?

Because I looked at the new models and they have features that I, and the vast majority of the world, do not use. Since my existing products don't have those features, they must be worthless despite doing exactly what they were advertised to do when I bought them.

And I'm boycotting the companies who made these products because when they sold them to me, they knew they were going to add more features to them in the future. Down with any company that advances their product!

(And yes, the above post was sarcastic).

Chris


----------



## RAD

DCSholtis said:


> Jason with all due respect in my opinion it WILL be worthless. After seeing all the features I currently enjoy with my A3 (extras ect.), your darn right I feel as if my BDP-S300 while not worthless since it still plays movies in the future as far as being able to access the net and being able to take advantage of certain features I agree with hdtvfan0001 that Sony screwed everyone in a money grab putting these players out before finalizing standards. While I still buy and support Blu, I find myself buying more import HD DVDs of movies that are Blu domestically strictly for extra features.


OK, so here's a bit of a stretch. Did Dish screw customers of the 622 by not finalizing their plans for DishOnline and now those folks won't be able to download HD content? Those 622 users will still be able to use the boxes to receive all DBS and OTA programming, just not be able to make use of a new feature/extension. To me it looks like the same deal but I don't see the same uproar over this.


----------



## Jason Nipp

DCSholtis said:


> Jason with all due respect in my opinion it WILL be worthless. After seeing all the features I currently enjoy with my A3 (extras ect.), your darn right I feel as if my BDP-S300 while not worthless since it still plays movies in the future as far as being able to access the net and being able to take advantage of certain features I agree with hdtvfan0001 that Sony screwed everyone in a money grab putting these players out before finalizing standards. While I still buy and support Blu, I find myself buying more import HD DVDs of movies that are Blu domestically strictly for extra features.


So do you feel screwed over by the industry implementing HDCP, or what about HDMI 1.3?

You know, if DRM is implemented a lot of HDTV users that don't have anything but a Component Video input will be screwed.... Lets blame that one on Sony too, or how about the HDMI standard constantly changing, or what about HDCP?

If you dig enough, you will find that that's the risk early adopters take, and while it doesn't make it right, technology is constantly evolving.... Oh, I have one more, I guess I can blame Dell for making a 386/20, geese Windows Vista can't run on it, so it must be Dell's fault.

Your logic is flawed, but none-the-less that's how you feel.

The point I have been trying to make is a lot of posters are riling people up over this profile 2.0. And frankly it doesn't matter to a good chunk of people. And don't forget, people are trying to pass this off as the units will no longer function at all, and that is just not true.


----------



## Jason Nipp

DCSholtis said:


> Jason with all due respect in my opinion *it WILL be worthless*. After seeing all the features I currently enjoy with my A3 (extras ect.), your darn right I feel as if *my BDP-S300 while not worthless *since it still plays movies in the future .


Tell you what, I'll help you out, I'll take that worthless but not worthless functional BDP-300 off your hands for you. It's used, probably well used, so how's $150 sound to ya?


----------



## Tom Robertson

BudShark said:


> I've decided to throw my truck, dishwasher, oven, computers, microwave, refrigerator, washing machine and dryer away.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because I looked at the new models and they have features that I, and the vast majority of the world, do not use. Since my existing products don't have those features, they must be worthless despite doing exactly what they were advertised to do when I bought them.
> 
> And I'm boycotting the companies who made these products because when they sold them to me, they knew they were going to add more features to them in the future. Down with any company that advances their product!
> 
> (And yes, the above post was sarcastic).
> 
> Chris


Chris, not sarcastic--good satire. 

(Tho I am actually boycotting Mitsubishi for their (Broken) "Promise Module" that was to future proof our component only HD TV purchases... That truly was a promise [which was broken].) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

My first CD player was $800 (and lasted 8 years), but it only could play manufactured CDs. Forget about self burned ones--cuz there wasn't such an option then! No MP3s, no photos, just music CDs. And it worked great. Over the years, I've upgraded, added more players in the house. Now I don't buy a single CD only player, except perhaps in the car or boombox.

If I had purchased a BD as an early adopter and it still played movies into profile 4 (should one ever come out), I'd be happy. I'd relegate it to the guest room or bedroom where all I would want is to play movies. I will have more than one high def player--as soon as the war is truly decided.

So I wouldn't mind that the first player didn't have all the bells and whistles. That would be for the "current" player in the HT. 

To describe myself, I'm typically in the middle of the road. I rarely listen/watch the commentaries, but sometimes do. I more often watch the deleted scenes and some of the other extras.

And for _The Abyss_, did get the director's cut on LD. Spent 6 hours watching the extras about the technology, almost 3 times amount of time as on the movie itself.  (Way cool!)

Will there someday be a movie that can't play at all on a profile 1.0 BD? Maybe. Most likely as a direct to video "art project" rather than a true movie experience, I'm guessing.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> Chris, not sarcastic--good satire.
> 
> (Tho I am actually boycotting Mitsubishi for their (Broken) "Promise Module" that was to future proof our component only HD TV purchases... That truly was a promise [which was broken].)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


What do you mean, that little puppie had a DVI connection, Firewire and ATSC tuner all for the low price of $1K IIRC. When I heard the price I promised to never by Mits again


----------



## Mike728

RAD said:


> What do you mean, that little puppie had a DVI connection, Firewire and ATSC tuner all for the low price of $1K IIRC. When I heard the price I promised to never by Mits again


I might actually go for that. Are you saying there's a DVI to Firewire adapter out there? 
This isn't totally off-topic, as I'd like to use the upconverting aspects of my HD-DVD and Blu-ray players on my old Mit's.


----------



## dhhaines

Tom Robertson said:


> Chris, not sarcastic--good satire.
> 
> (Tho I am actually boycotting Mitsubishi for their (Broken) "Promise Module" that was to future proof our component only HD TV purchases... That truly was a promise [which was broken].)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


 Yeah... don't talk to my neighbor about his "future proof" 65" Mitsubishi. :nono2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

RAD said:


> What do you mean, that little puppie had a DVI connection, Firewire and ATSC tuner all for the low price of $1K IIRC. When I heard the price I promised to never by Mits again


Close. No DVI, only firewire and ATSC. I would be happy with DVI if it supported HDCP. (And first release was $1,500 AFAIK, my letter was $1k.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## paulman182

dhhaines said:


> Yeah, I'm with you. Just put out a player that PLAYS the movie in HD for under $200 and people will buy it. I can't think of one DVD with an "extra" disc that I've actually watched. The masses just want to watch the movie at the best resolution for the best price. Until the studio's figure this out there will be no "standard" HD player. HD DVD and BLU RAY are both anemic when it comes to sales compared to plain old DVD. And I own players for all three formats.


I can't imagine caring enough about a movie to buy it, and NOT watching the extras.

If I just wanted to watch the movie, that's what I've got DirecTV for.


----------



## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> Close. No DVI, only firewire and ATSC. I would be happy with DVI if it supported HDCP. (And first release was $1,500 AFAIK, my letter was $1k.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Could be, I though it was also DVI but that was along time ago. All I know is when I looked at the price the letter went in the shredder. Not much after that the set went on E-Bay.


----------



## RAD

Mike728 said:


> I might actually go for that. Are you saying there's a DVI to Firewire adapter out there?
> This isn't totally off-topic, as I'd like to use the upconverting aspects of my HD-DVD and Blu-ray players on my old Mit's.


No the Promise Module didn't do that and it was only for Mits HDTV sets.


----------



## Mike728

RAD said:


> No the Promise Module didn't do that and it was only for Mits HDTV sets.


I have an old Mit's HD TV (WS-65909). You guys had me thinking there was a module that would allow a DVI connection to it. Oh well, it's still a darn good set. It's just not as adaptable as I would like.


----------



## Tom Robertson

That was the promise--you could add this module to a number of models to future proof the TV. Busted Promise.

Anyway, I'm still neutral on the high def players for awhile longer.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## dhhaines

paulman182 said:


> I can't imagine caring enough about a movie to buy it, and NOT watching the extras.
> 
> If I just wanted to watch the movie, that's what I've got DirecTV for.


 I just haven't seen any "extras" worth my time to watch.

I guess you're one of those that pay for the "premium" channels that play the same 4 new movies for an entire month. I'd rather own the movie and play it when and WHERE I want to. The HR20 doesn't allow me to watch movies anywhere in my home that I want.

My theater room doesn't have Directv service hooked to it. Once they let the HR20 have MRV it may. It's basically just a movie room.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I think the profile 1.0 vs 1.1 vs 2.0 with Blu ray is a matter of public perception, and directly relates to the competition with HD DVD.

IF there were no HD DVD... and only Blu ray... then the profile thing would be the typical early-adopter scenario where you pay more early for less just to be first... and later prices come down and features improve. This happens all the time with technology of all kinds, and we can cite examples all day long.

However, in this case we have Blu ray 1.0 which does not do things that HD DVD does now... and Blu ray 1.1 which still does not do things that HD DVD does now... and finally 2.0 which may do all the things HD DVD does now, eventually.

So, from a public perception point of view... early adoption is one thing... but it becomes glaring by comparison against HD DVD which is cheaper and more featured.

I have a 200-watt audio receiver. I never use all 200-watts. In fact, if I even approached 20 watts my ears would probably bleed... but my 200-watt system seemed better at the price point I bought than a 100-watt system... so I bought 200-watt even though I know I'd never use all that it could do.

I personally play very few "extras"... and have only listened to one or two commentary tracks in my years of DVD purchases... so I personally would not choose based upon the extras alone... BUT, with the HD DVD being a cheaper AND more feature-rich option, it was hard not to buy into HD DVD during the sales last year.

Public perception of more for less does make a difference... and the early adopter scenario only applies when the technology couldn't be there. My HDTV doesn't have HDMI or DVI, but it couldn't have because DVI was never formally adopted as a standard and HDMI didn't yet exist when I bought. But Blu ray released without features that have been around for years, same features HD DVD launched with... so Blu ray appears to have "skimped" while at the same time charging more for their players that do less.

In the long run, none of this matters... but right now, it kinda does.


----------



## FogCutter

HDMe,

I am puzzled why BluRay has had such a stunted roll out. Sony couldn't seem to get a player to market no matter what, and the AV forums are full of BluRay users having trouble playing this new movie or that, and they seem to spend more time upgrading their firmware than watching movies. 

Have to agree with you on the extras -- don't really care. Give me a great picture and sound and I'm happy. Up close and personal interviews with the caterer and parking attendants don't really do much for me. I guess there is amusement to be had when they include a big "making of" feature and the movie tanks. 

Early adoption -- getting too old for that: Twice the price for half the performance just to be first isn't as stimulating as it once was. 

In 5 years we'll be buying vastly superior hidef players at WalMart for $50. One thing for certain -- Sony will find a way to screw it up royally.


----------



## RAD

HDMe said:


> I personally play very few "extras"... and have only listened to one or two commentary tracks in my years of DVD purchases... so I personally would not choose based upon the extras alone... BUT, with the HD DVD being a cheaper AND more feature-rich option, it was hard not to buy into HD DVD during the sales last year.


But people buy players to watch movies, that's the entier purpose of this. And if the majority movies they want to watch are available only one 1 type of player IMHO it doesn't matter if the thing will make you a batch of popcorn, fix you a drink and do the laundry while watching a movie if you can't watch the movies you want to watch. And looking at the sales numbers it looks like that's what is happening.


----------



## DCSholtis

paulman182 said:


> I can't imagine caring enough about a movie to buy it, and NOT watching the extras.
> 
> If I just wanted to watch the movie, that's what I've got DirecTV for.


+1


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HDMe said:


> I think the profile 1.0 vs 1.1 vs 2.0 with Blu ray is a matter of public perception, and directly relates to the competition with HD DVD.
> 
> IF there were no HD DVD... and only Blu ray... then the profile thing would be the typical early-adopter scenario.......


600,000 "early adopters" about to hit eBay with Boat Anchors....

What's most amazing is that Sony keeps doing "sales" on the v1.0 units like nothing is going to happen, knowing full well these things are about to be semi-obsolete.


----------



## Jason Nipp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 600,000 "early adopters" about to hit eBay with Boat Anchors....


Now your just trying to tweak me.

See who has the semi-obsolete hardware when HD-DVD loses the format war.

Then again it could still be the opposite, and I know that. So Fred, I'll say again, I don't give a dam who wins, I just do not want to get left holding the bag. Which is why I am limiting my investment in my movie collection.


----------



## BudShark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 600,000 "early adopters" about to hit eBay with Boat Anchors....
> 
> What's most amazing is that Sony keeps doing "sales" on the v1.0 units like nothing is going to happen, knowing full well these things are about to be semi-obsolete.


Fan - I respect you for all you do and provide and I think you do a great service to this forum, but on this point I think you are dead wrong and are beating a drum as loud as you can to persuade people into a false direction.

There are no boat anchors. And the majority of Blu-Ray purchasers in this thread have said, repeatedly, they couldn't care less about the 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 features. They bought it to play movies and it will continue to play movies.

So exactly who are you so apparently concerned about? Even if 50% of the users who were early adopters care (which doesn't seem to be the case), you are down to 300,00. And by the time this all comes to play, these 300,000 will be more than happy to move Blu-Ray player #1 to the kids room and buy a new Blu-Ray 2.0 profile player for $150.

Seriously - you are trying to make a mountain out of something that is LESS than an ant hill. It ain't a big deal and all the drum beating in the world won't change that - nor the fact that Blu-Ray has and will continue to have the content superiority, which means a whole lot more than PiP and Internet features.

Chris


----------



## Jason Nipp

BudShark said:


> Fan - I respect you for all you do and provide and I think you do a great service to this forum, but on this point I think you are dead wrong and are beating a drum as loud as you can to persuade people into a false direction.





















:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Tom Robertson

One might say my LD player (barely works) and large collection is a boat anchor. Yet it lived a longer life than some of my DVD players. Which all soon will be "boat anchors?" 

Did I get my entertainment value from the whole? Yes, I think so. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mridan

BudShark said:


> Fan - I respect you for all you do and provide and I think you do a great service to this forum, but on this point I think you are dead wrong and are beating a drum as loud as you can to persuade people into a false direction.
> 
> There are no boat anchors. And the majority of Blu-Ray purchasers in this thread have said, repeatedly, they couldn't care less about the 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 features. They bought it to play movies and it will continue to play movies.
> 
> So exactly who are you so apparently concerned about? Even if 50% of the users who were early adopters care (which doesn't seem to be the case), you are down to 300,00. And by the time this all comes to play, these 300,000 will be more than happy to move Blu-Ray player #1 to the kids room and buy a new Blu-Ray 2.0 profile player for $150.
> 
> Seriously - you are trying to make a mountain out of something that is LESS than an ant hill. It ain't a big deal and all the drum beating in the world won't change that - nor the fact that Blu-Ray has and will continue to have the content superiority, which means a whole lot more than PiP and Internet features.
> 
> Chris


Well said, Amen.


----------



## HIPAR

Now I'm getting confused again. Are some of you saying everyday kinds of things, like directors' comments, that I watch on my regular old DVDs are considered to be extras that I'll need a high profile Blu-ray Disk player to watch?  

--- CHAS


----------



## RAD

HIPAR said:


> Now I'm getting confused again. Are some of you saying everyday kinds of things, like directors' comments, that I watch on my regular old DVS are considered to be extras that I'll need a high profile Blu-ray Disk player to watch?
> 
> --- CHAS


No, the current BD movies now have things like that and you can play them just fine with the existing players on the market. IIRC they're taking about having Picture In Picture features or things that would use an internet connection to get additional content or link to something like the studio store so you can buy things from the movie.


----------



## Jason Nipp

HIPAR said:


> Now I'm getting confused again. Are some of you saying everyday kinds of things, like directors comments, that I watch one my regular old DVS are considered to be extras that I'll need a high profile Blu-ray Disk player to watch?


All my current discs have extended features that work, not PiP of course. BD will be transitioning to Profile 2.0, and after that if you have a 1.0 player and you try a 2.0 disc, then some of the extras features may not work correctly. You will however still be able to play the movie. This does not effect the PS3 at all.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The newer movies' director's comments very well might use "PIP" mode to have talking heads appear during the movie in a PIP frame and therefore might not work on a profile 1.0 player. Other features conceivably could use the internet in a meaningful fashion, requiring the 2.0 profile players.

But to play the movie, you should be able to play almost all movies on a profile 1.0 player (perhaps with a firmware upgrade.) The only ones that might not, would very specialized video experiences that rely upon the profile 1.1 or profile 2.0 players and would be never shown in a movie theatre in the first place--at least that is my present guess.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stewart Vernon

RAD said:


> But people buy players to watch movies, that's the entier purpose of this. And if the majority movies they want to watch are available only one 1 type of player IMHO it doesn't matter if the thing will make you a batch of popcorn, fix you a drink and do the laundry while watching a movie if you can't watch the movies you want to watch. And looking at the sales numbers it looks like that's what is happening.


That's the other puzzling thing to me. At this point there are virtually the same amount of movies available in HD DVD format as there are Blu ray, not even counting imports.. There are unique/exclusive movies on both sides but both are sitting around 500 movies available at the moment.

Even with a "majority of major studio support" on the side of Blu ray, there are still the same quantity of titles out there. Unless something changes, even when Warner goes Blu ray exclusive I don't expect there to actually be significantly more movies on Blu ray than on HD DVD.

None of the movie studios seem to want to release anything... they are playing chicken or the egg, not wanting to release movies that might only sell 100,000 at most BUT by not releasing movies they are ensuring consumer adoption continues at a snail's pace.

Sure, Disney/FOX/Sony/Columbia/Warner Brothers/New Line/Buena Vista/etc. sounds more impressive than Univeral/Dreamworks/Paramount... but unless those studios actually release movies, it kind of doesn't matter. Right now there just isn't that much out there to buy in either format, unfortunately.

Movie studios could have ended this by forcing one format from the beginning OR by actually releasing movies that people would want to buy... as it is, the studios seem to be waiting for consumers to "pick a side" which really isn't happening since consumers are still buying DVD at a much much higher pace than both HD formats combined.


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 600,000 "early adopters" about to hit eBay with Boat Anchors....
> 
> What's most amazing is that Sony keeps doing "sales" on the v1.0 units like nothing is going to happen, knowing full well these things are about to be semi-obsolete.


How is that any different than Toshiba's fire-sales of HDDVD players that may have no studios releasing movies for them within a year? Did you expect Sony to just pull them all off the shelfs and reclycle them or put a big warning sign saying "Newer players have added functionality that you may want to use and this one won't support, but please buy this anyway!" - I certainly wouldn't just like the TV manufacturers didn't put out big warnings saying "Next year we'll release a 1080P version of this 720P or 1080i set, and it will have a better contrast ratio too so you'll be kicking yourself in the butt for buying this one, but do it anyway!".


----------



## machavez00

Too bad Warner dropped the "Total HiDef" discs. Had all the studios went with that the market really would have decided which format would win, not which format could subsidize the studios more.

"Superman Returns" was to be the first release


----------



## DCSholtis

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 600,000 "early adopters" about to hit eBay with Boat Anchors....
> 
> What's most amazing is that Sony keeps doing "sales" on the v1.0 units like nothing is going to happen, knowing full well these things are about to be semi-obsolete.


+1 Amen Brother!!


----------



## elaclair

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 600,000 "early adopters" about to hit eBay with Boat Anchors....
> 
> What's most amazing is that Sony keeps doing "sales" on the v1.0 units like nothing is going to happen, knowing full well these things are about to be semi-obsolete.


Currently on e-bay there are 486 HD-DVD players for sale...and 221 blu-ray players......


----------



## machavez00

sam's has the HD-D3 for 126


----------



## Drew2k

elaclair said:


> Currently on e-bay there are 486 HD-DVD players for sale...and 221 blu-ray players......


How many of the HD-DVD players for sale are first or early generation players that the owner is selling because they bought a later generation HD-DVD player?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bobukcat said:


> How is that any different than Toshiba's fire-sales of HDDVD players that may have no studios releasing movies for them within a year?


The first and latest HD DVD players ahve something in common - technology standards. Something the Blu Ray folks haven't even thought about until right now.

As far as the lower prices for HD DVD - yes, they are lower. And for good reason - lack of Sony greed. They only reduce prices when newer units come out - but even their first generation units (they are now on the thrid) work perfectly fine and are fully compatible with all current HD DVD disks - whereas Blu Ray...... :eek2:

In terms of movies - there are hundreds and hundresd of HD DVD titles out there already with plenty more coming out each month. In fact, the gap between HD DVD and BD disks in terms of the number of titles is less than 45.

....and unlike Blu Ray, HD DVD disks that will coming out 6 months from now will still work with all features and audio codecs in *all 3 generations of players*....and they can all get updates via Ethernet.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

elaclair said:


> Currently on e-bay there are 486 HD-DVD players for sale...and 221 blu-ray players......


Fact is there are many more HD DVD players out there. Plus they cost less. No surprise.


----------



## elaclair

Drew2k said:


> How many of the HD-DVD players for sale are first or early generation players that the owner is selling because they bought a later generation HD-DVD player?


That actually surprised me. I went back and checked on what generation the players were.....of the 470+ listings, there were only 5 first-gen players. 4 A1s and 1 XA1 . I quit counting at 250 3rd gen players....the vast majority being A3s......


----------



## BudShark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ....and unlike Blu Ray, HD DVD disks that will coming out 6 months from now will still work with all features and audio codecs in *all 3 generations of players*....and they can all get updates via Ethernet.


Tsk Tsk Tsk... wait a minute here. What about the fact that Toshiba itself states multi-layer and combo discs may not be compatible with 1st gen players? Did we forget that?

So in other words, to achieve the storage capacity and pile on those extras you want that blow Blu-Ray out of the water - you may make your 1st gen player incompatible. 

Boy - I'm sure glad Toshiba finalized all specs before coming out with a first gen player! :rolling:

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=hd-a1

Read the fine print at the bottom:



> Some Combo Discs and Twin format Discs may not be compatible.


Chris


----------



## Mike728

BudShark said:


> Some Combo Discs and Twin format Discs may not be compatible.


I wish those combo discs were actually produced. One disc for both Blu-ray and HD-DVD would make it a better world for all of us.


----------



## elaclair

BudShark said:


> Tsk Tsk Tsk... wait a minute here. What about the fact that Toshiba itself states multi-layer and combo discs may not be compatible with 1st gen players? Did we forget that?
> 
> So in other words, to achieve the storage capacity and pile on those extras you want that blow Blu-Ray out of the water - you may make your 1st gen player incompatible.
> 
> Boy - I'm sure glad Toshiba finalized all specs before coming out with a first gen player! :rolling:
> 
> http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=hd-a1
> 
> Read the fine print at the bottom:
> 
> Chris


And of course, Toshiba also indicated that the first gen players will probably not work with the TL51 discs (should they ever be produced...)


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> SNIP
> 
> As far as the lower prices for HD DVD - yes, they are lower. And for good reason - lack of Sony greed. They only reduce prices when newer units come out - but even their first generation units (they are now on the thrid) work perfectly fine and are fully compatible with all current HD DVD disks - whereas Blu Ray...... :eek2:
> 
> In terms of movies - there are hundreds and hundresd of HD DVD titles out there already with plenty more coming out each month. In fact, the gap between HD DVD and BD disks in terms of the number of titles is less than 45.
> 
> ....and unlike Blu Ray, HD DVD disks that will coming out 6 months from now will still work with all features and audio codecs in *all 3 generations of players*....and they can all get updates via Ethernet.


Have you considered the possibility that the difference in price is due to a difference in cost?? You may note that the players from all manufacturers (not just your favorite whipping-boy Sony) are more expensive and that very well could be that the laser necessary to read at the deeper level (which allows for a thicker coating on the disc and therefore less chance of scratches rendering that movie Netflix / BB sent you unwatchable) simply cost more to produce, and that's just one component - albeit a major one. Tosh has touted from day 1 that their h/w for both burners and readers would be less expensive so that most likely plays some part in the price differences.

As for compatibility, every BD disc produced so far works on profile 1.0 and 1.1 players. Until we see discs with BD+ or BD-Live content being produced no one is missing out on anything. Both camps have had their instances of certain players not playing certain discs so as of now both camps are pretty much "fully-compatible" with the content that has been released to date. BD owners may have to go to profile 2.0 for future content, and HD DVD owners may have to upgrade if the triple layer disc becomes a reality.

There may be hundreds of HD DVD titles out there, but if things continue at their current rate and the pundits are correct about the leanings of the studios, there is a good chance that there will be no HD DVD new releases from the majority of major studios. If there are no new releases the only thing the red players are "fully-compatible" with are old titles. :sleeping: That is why I contend that it is no less deceitful or dishonest for 1.0 or 1.1 BD players to be sale priced than it is for Tosh to slash pricing on their players in a last-ditch effort to save their format (BTW, how much do you suppose they are making on that $135 player, if anything??). This is standard-practice stuff in the industry, like it or not.


----------



## Cholly

The big difference between the two formats: Toshiba chose to build on existing DVD technology, where Sony chose to develop a new optical disc format. 
Sony has demonstrated the capability of providing a lower cost player by including one in the PS/3 -- a game console with profile upgradeable Blu-ray Disc player with a retail of $399.99 - a price point BELOW that of most standalone Blu-Ray Disc players. Sony is said to be making a profit on the new 40 gig PS3. Be that the case, why aren't standalone profile 1.0 players selling well below $275?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BudShark said:


> Tsk Tsk Tsk... wait a minute here. What about the fact that Toshiba itself states multi-layer and combo discs may not be compatible with 1st gen players? Did we forget that?


Fortunately for us, they all are compatible, as mutli-layers are not yet in production, and combo support was updated in all versions of HD DVD players.

...and yet Blu Ray still has no standards in production as of today (maybe late next month if their new units start to roll out as planned).

If someone spent $400, $500, $700 or more on a new Blu Ray player during the holidays, only to find out that months later many new features of new BD disks coming this summer and fall and beyond were not usable, I suspect they might just not be a happy camper. Finding out that Sony has know this and kept it closely under wraps on their end is kinda like when Ford sold the Pinto knowing it was a potential Weber Grill. :eek2:

Let me make this really simple for the Blu Ray advocates....

Friends don't let friends buy Blu Ray.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bobukcat said:


> Have you considered the possibility that the difference in price is due to a difference in cost??


Yes, there are cost differences. About $2.10 per disk (mostly for the extra layer of disk coating they put on) and about $44.00 per player. 

Hardly seems to warrant the retail differences....that is....unless you want to be greedy. :eek2:


----------



## machavez00

firmware 2.8 is available Toshiba HD players


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I asked my HD-D3 to check for updates and it didn't find one. Might be for 2-series players.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

machavez00 said:


> firmware 2.8 is available Toshiba HD players


For the A-2, D-2, and XA-2 series only...


----------



## tfederov

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Friends don't let friends buy Blu Ray.


Might not have a choice once the war is over. 

I'm going to wait for the dust to settle with Profile 2.0 before taking the plunge. The fact that Fox is in the Blu-Ray camp leans me in that direction because I'd love to have the Star Wars and Indiana Jones sets in High Def eventually.


----------



## machavez00

Indiana Jones is Paramount. I have "Raiders" and "Last Crusade" on LD All three movies open with a matching shot of the Paramount logo


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Fortunately for us, they all are compatible, as mutli-layers are not yet in production, and combo support was updated in all versions of HD DVD players.


And how is that different than the fact that there are no BD discs in production that have features that profile 1.0 or 1.1 won't access??? I guess the argument only works in one direction.


----------



## elaclair

machavez00 said:


> Indiana Jones is Paramount. I have "Raiders" and "Last Crusade" on LD All three movies open with a matching shot of the Paramount logo


You can't always go by the production studio credits when it comes to the home video market. Movie rights can get shuffled around through acquisitions/sales/mergers and such. Producers can "jump ship" and have their movie released for home video by a completely different studio than who produced it originally.

In the case of the Indy movies, they're still Paramount, but could easily end up on Blu-Ray when Paramount's HD-DVD exclusivity ends.

By the way, I've got the Indy Trilogy on Laser...still looks pretty good considering.....


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yes, there are cost differences. About $2.10 per disk (mostly for the extra layer of disk coating they put on) and about $44.00 per player.
> 
> Hardly seems to warrant the retail differences....that is....unless you want to be greedy. :eek2:


Or maybe they've taken a different approach and decided to spend their money "convincing" the studios that they have a superior format because they figure if no one is releasing movies on the red format they win and can make money on players and royalties to make up for it! :up_to_som

Then again, maybe it is a lot more than $44 dollars a player, or maybe Tosh is taking a bath on the price they are selling players for in an effort to win the war, especially with the lost battles mounting up on them.


----------



## BudShark

bobukcat said:


> And how is that different than the fact that there are no BD discs in production that have features that profile 1.0 or 1.1 won't access??? I guess the argument only works in one direction.


I'm guessing it only works in one direction... its become apparent this isn't about rational discussion, but rather about spewing HD-DVD FUD despite evidence and fact to the contrary.

I hope that combo players come down to a point that this is all moot - but in the meantime, stating that Blu-Ray players with 1.0 profiles are boat anchors is not doing the industry or any interested purchasers a service, and quite honestly, is even more underhanded than what they claim Sony did.

Chris


----------



## tfederov

machavez00 said:


> Indiana Jones is Paramount. I have "Raiders" and "Last Crusade" on LD All three movies open with a matching shot of the Paramount logo


You're right. I forgot. I stand corrected.


----------



## Drew2k

elaclair said:


> That actually surprised me. I went back and checked on what generation the players were.....of the 470+ listings, there were only 5 first-gen players. 4 A1s and 1 XA1 . I quit counting at 250 3rd gen players....the vast majority being A3s......


That is quite surprising ... I wonder how many people saw the latest generation HD players on sale, picked them up thinking they could sell for a profit on eBay? These people should not tell fortunes ...


----------



## elaclair

Drew2k said:


> That is quite surprising ... I wonder how many people saw the latest generation HD players on sale, picked them up thinking they could sell for a profit on eBay? These people should not tell fortunes ...


LOL I hadn't thought of that....and I think you may be right. A lot of the listings for the A35 were close to, if not above, retail...and touted the free movies as well.

I know in the past I have done the ole "flip" routine on e-bay...and done quite well. Somehow I don't think that's going to be the case this time.......


----------



## waynebtx

Have the HDA30 what should the HDMI audio be set to with an onkyo TX-SR805.


----------



## elaclair

waynebtx said:


> Have the HDA30 what should the HDMI audio be set to with an onkyo TX-SR805.


Looking at the specs on both units, it appears the Onkyo will decode everything the A30 can output (and then some!), so you can pretty much pick your poison. I forget which one is the less lossy, but I think the best one would be the DTS-HD. (Someone please correct me on that ...) And then TrueHD for your second choice.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Drew2k said:


> That is quite surprising ... I wonder how many people saw the latest generation HD players on sale, picked them up thinking they could sell for a profit on eBay? These people should not tell fortunes ...


Yep... eBay is a bad place to look and cite examples of what is for sale and try to extrapolate that to reality. Also, just as important, there could be 1000000 listings but that doesn't matter if none sell. Only actual transactions have meaning.

I've also said before... people who thought about selling their "brick" HD DVD players... you can't sell it if it truly is worthless.. if you do succeed in selling it, then you proved it had value.. and created a new HD DVD customer in the process.

So "fire sales" only work when there are customers who want the product. Try to have a "fire sale" on a truly unwanted product... that doesn't work well.


----------



## jwebb1970

Actually, INDY JONES is 1st & foremost a Lucasfilm property. Much like STAR WARS & FOX, INDY is owned by Lucasfilm--only distributed by Paramount.

And we have all heard about Speilberg's Blu-leanings....except from the mouth of Mr.Speilberg himself, that is.

If Paramount is still HD DVD exclusive come fall '08 (when INDY IV would likely hit DVD), it'll be interesting to see what happens on the HD front. Will Speilberg relent & "allow" Paramount to issue the film on HD DVD? WIll it be a DVD-only release? Can/would George Lucas---the legal owner of the franchise--step into the fray as well?


----------



## texaswolf

elaclair said:


> Currently on e-bay there are 486 HD-DVD players for sale...and 221 blu-ray players......


Is that counting PS3's? I was on there last week and those things were going every 20 min. Does that mean people don't want them...nope. I think it's more of people trying to make profits, just like the HD players.

I have the 1st gen HD-A2...and haven't had any playback issues like the 1st gen BR players have mentioned (knock on wood)...but then again...I only paid $100 bucks for it....unlike the folks who coughed up $400 or more for the 1st gen BR players....then i would be upset with the "superior format" creators. Thats why i went with the PS3...that way i get my moneys worth.


----------



## machavez00

The A2 is 2nd gen

The A1


----------



## texaswolf

machavez00 said:


> The A2 is 2nd gen
> 
> The A1


wow look at that beta max looking thing...well that explains why im not having probs...lol


----------



## machavez00

I think Chris has an A1. I hear the load times are slow.


----------



## GrumpyBear

BudShark said:


> I'm guessing it only works in one direction... its become apparent this isn't about rational discussion, but rather about spewing HD-DVD FUD despite evidence and fact to the contrary.
> 
> I hope that combo players come down to a point that this is all moot - but in the meantime, stating that Blu-Ray players with 1.0 profiles are boat anchors is not doing the industry or any interested purchasers a service, and quite honestly, is even more underhanded than what they claim Sony did.
> 
> Chris


Ok,
Warner Bros. has told High-Def Digest that they will soon be releasing profile 1.1 compatible movies. Warner have been slow to release movies on Blu-ray in comparison to HD-DVD because they have been waiting for picture-in-picture commentaries and other such features which have only recently been made available to Blu-ray players via profile 1.1. 
Warner will be releasing, Batman Begins, The Matrix and Transformers all with Profile 1.1 Features.

Its not that Grace Period 1.0 Profile Devices are boat anchors, its that they have been since release been called "GRACE PERIOD" Profile. It is dishonest of BD Makers to have told consumers that there devices will be "upgradable", because of "BD-Java". Software and firmware updates can not fix, missing physical Hardware, that DOES NOT EXIST in the devices. Profile 1.1 is now released, granted Profile2.0 is already approved and Profile1.1 devices wont be able to update to that Profile either, sounds pretty underhanded to me. Its not a firmware or Software issue, its Hardware, so once again, new Profile is out, but the BD Makers have made it so you have to buy another "new" system, to get the features, or just wait until Profile 2.0 Devices come out, which looks like the 1st true stable feature Profile.

Granted its only the Advanced Features of the New Releases, but if anybody out there believes, now that profile 1.1 is out there, Studio's wont be all over this, they are missing it. Warner has already announced Movies that will be released with Profile 1.1 features, you can be sure of "New" Sony movies following suit, and Disney WILL be releasing locked up in the Vault movies, with BRAND NEW FEATURES, and before Xmas, all Studies will be pushing the features, and releasing movies, thats how they sell movies.

All those people buying the new movies just to find out that thier Grace Period BD, less than a year old, is unable to play any of the features, wont be very happy. Look for some backlash, and its all so, the reason people feel that neither format is going win, HD-DVD had the features, but not All the Studio's or Marketing. BD had more Studio's, Better Marketing(love how they started to add, play HD Movies on Blu-Ray, help confuse things), but none of the features, adding the features in 3 steps, 1 step Grace Period no advanced Features, 2nd step Profile 1.1 most of the features, 3rd step 2.0 final product, and oh yeah, forget about BD-Java and Firmware, upgrading from one profile to the next as that can't happen. Sounds Very underhanded.

Now if only Sony would spend half the money they have spent on creating a DRM secure device, that gets hacked as soon as it gets released, all BD makers could have had a Mature and feature packed product from the get go, or at least truely upgradable. But Sony treats everybody as a thief and would rather spend billions on locking things up, just to watch it get cracked, with Free software, or a 69c Sharpie.

For me, I will be getting a PS3 sometime over the summer, but only after a few more worthy games, and they finally add feedback to the controllers again(wow did they miss the boat on that one), as I don't mind getting the 3rd best "gamebox". Mainly because you wont beable to see it, in my entertainment center. I picked up a HD-DVD A2 with 10 movies for under 200 last month, on ebay, great buy.


----------



## bobukcat

GrumpyBear said:


> Ok,
> 
> For me, I will be getting a PS3 sometime over the summer, but only after a few more worthy games, and they finally add feedback to the controllers again(wow did they miss the boat on that one), as I don't mind getting the 3rd best "gamebox". Mainly because you wont beable to see it, in my entertainment center. I picked up a HD-DVD A2 with 10 movies for under 200 last month, on ebay, great buy.


Make sure it's in a well ventilated spot, that thing really cranks out the heat!

For what it's worth I think it's an attractive design but certainly doesn't lend itself to anthing being stacked on top of it - probably on purpose. Make sure you pick up "Uncharted: Drake's Fortune" for it (there may be a sequel out by then too), the graphics are incredible!


----------



## GrumpyBear

Yes it will be in a GOOD ventilated spot. Its like everything else, no worse no better, except for the Wii, they all generate TO MUCH HEAT, to much sometimes, but that is a totally different rant:lol:
Keep your head down in Kentucky today, lots of bad weather out there.


----------



## bobukcat

They must have sold out quickly but Amazon was offering the add-on player for the XBOX for $80 plus free shipping and 6 free HD-DVDs, that's one hell of a deal! I wonder how many they had and how much they lost on each one??

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/06/amazon-80-xbox-360-hd-dvd-player-with-6-free-hd-dvds-and-shipp/


----------



## Stewart Vernon

GrumpyBear said:


> Warner will be releasing, Batman Begins, The Matrix and Transformers all with Profile 1.1 Features.


One correction... Warner will not be releasing Transformers on Blu ray. It isn't their movie to release.


----------



## DCSholtis

HDMe said:


> One correction... Warner will not be releasing Transformers on Blu ray. It isn't their movie to release.


The ole Bear is going to get plenty more Grumpy after hearing that.


----------



## BudShark

GrumpyBear said:


> snip
> 
> Its not that Grace Period 1.0 Profile Devices are boat anchors, its that they have been since release been called "GRACE PERIOD" Profile. It is dishonest of BD Makers to have told consumers that there devices will be "upgradable", because of "BD-Java". Software and firmware updates can not fix, missing physical Hardware, that DOES NOT EXIST in the devices. Profile 1.1 is now released, granted Profile2.0 is already approved and Profile1.1 devices wont be able to update to that Profile either, sounds pretty underhanded to me. Its not a firmware or Software issue, its Hardware, so once again, new Profile is out, but the BD Makers have made it so you have to buy another "new" system, to get the features, or just wait until Profile 2.0 Devices come out, which looks like the 1st true stable feature Profile.
> 
> Granted its only the Advanced Features of the New Releases, but if anybody out there believes, now that profile 1.1 is out there, Studio's wont be all over this, they are missing it. Warner has already announced Movies that will be released with Profile 1.1 features, you can be sure of "New" Sony movies following suit, and Disney WILL be releasing locked up in the Vault movies, with BRAND NEW FEATURES, and before Xmas, all Studies will be pushing the features, and releasing movies, thats how they sell movies.
> 
> All those people buying the new movies just to find out that thier Grace Period BD, less than a year old, is unable to play any of the features, wont be very happy. Look for some backlash, and its all so, the reason people feel that neither format is going win, HD-DVD had the features, but not All the Studio's or Marketing. BD had more Studio's, Better Marketing(love how they started to add, play HD Movies on Blu-Ray, help confuse things), but none of the features, adding the features in 3 steps, 1 step Grace Period no advanced Features, 2nd step Profile 1.1 most of the features, 3rd step 2.0 final product, and oh yeah, forget about BD-Java and Firmware, upgrading from one profile to the next as that can't happen. Sounds Very underhanded.
> snip


Umm - still not seeing a backlash. The backlash is brought on by HD-DVD enthusiasts or fringe reporters/bloggers trying to create something.

I have seen this topic on Digg, Cnet news.com, Cnn technology, AVSForum, DBSTalk, PCMag, Tomshardware, etc etc etc. Its not exactly a "secret".

But the funny thing about it is - in all cases - I haven't seen the backlash. I haven't seen where the report was followed by 10s, or dozens, or 100s of posts about how they were going to throw their player away, how could this happen, this sucks, etc. Nothing... Just a bunch of people posting - "Yeah I know, but I don't watch those anyways". Followed shortly by someone saying, "If I care about this, I guess I'll buy a new player in a year or two for less than what I paid for this one."

People are accustomed to technology changing. How many DVD players have people bought over the past 5-7 years? And you're talking about the enthusiasts or fringe-enthusiasts who bought into a technology early. If you SERIOUSLY think they didn't expect to replace their 1st gen player in a year or two, I'd be more than a bit surprised.

Mountain out of a mole-hill. Hell - the standard startup/load-times/eject times of these 1st gen players are a bigger issue than Profiles if you want something to drumbeat about.

Chris


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> Umm - still not seeing a backlash. The backlash is brought on by HD-DVD enthusiasts or fringe reporters/bloggers trying to create something.
> 
> I have seen this topic on Digg, Cnet news.com, Cnn technology, AVSForum, DBSTalk, PCMag, Tomshardware, etc etc etc. Its not exactly a "secret".
> 
> But the funny thing about it is - in all cases - I haven't seen the backlash. I haven't seen where the report was followed by 10s, or dozens, or 100s of posts about how they were going to throw their player away, how could this happen, this sucks, etc. Nothing... Just a bunch of people posting - "Yeah I know, but I don't watch those anyways". Followed shortly by someone saying, "If I care about this, I guess I'll buy a new player in a year or two for less than what I paid for this one."
> 
> People are accustomed to technology changing. How many DVD players have people bought over the past 5-7 years? And you're talking about the enthusiasts or fringe-enthusiasts who bought into a technology early. If you SERIOUSLY think they didn't expect to replace their 1st gen player in a year or two, I'd be more than a bit surprised.
> 
> Mountain out of a mole-hill. Hell - the standard startup/load-times/eject times of these 1st gen players are a bigger issue than Profiles if you want something to drumbeat about.
> 
> Chris


except people weren't paying $400+ and expecting to replace it in 1-2years...they also were expecting the DVD player to play what was on the entire DVD. Claiming the extras is "no big deal" is pure spin also...you get it on both sides. I find it hard to believe that anyone spending half a grand on a player that wont play all contents of the movie they bought, isn't irked in one way or another.


> One correction... Warner will not be releasing Transformers on Blu ray. It isn't their movie to release.


Yep that is Dreamworks movie...no matter how much Micheal Bay pouts.

The Matrix collection still doesn't have a release date on BR...yet it has been on HDDVD only for almost a year now...but they went Blu because they "don't want to confuse the consumer". They have been neutral, and could have done a Blu release already...but didn't...then they join the side that depending on what player you get, may or may not be able to play all those features on your disc..but they "don't want to confuse the consumer". So they will wait for 1.1...what do they tell their 1.0 folks? You knew what you were getting into? Thats what BR told them. or how about "sorry you can enjoy all those features we added on to the collection...but you can enjoy them all on our HDDVD release...but remember "don't want to confuse the consumer"

....sure...that was the reason you jumped sides...lol...more like a fat check in the pocket. At least Paramount had the balls to say they were tired of waiting for BR to come out with the tech for their movies to be enjoyed on...a decent reason to go along with their paycheck.


----------



## elaclair

texaswolf said:


> except people weren't paying $400+ and expecting to replace it in 1-2years...they also were expecting the DVD player to play what was on the entire DVD. Claiming the extras is "no big deal" is pure spin also...you get it on both sides. I find it hard to believe that anyone spending half a grand on a player that wont play all contents of the movie they bought, isn't irked in one way or another.


You're right on that one....nope we weren't paying $400, more like $600 or $700.

My first stereo VHS machine was almost $400, but I had to replace it in about a year because it didn't do dolby.....and that one was replaced with a $1000 Mitsu so that I could get Hi-Fi....which was replaced with another $800 unit to be able to do S-VHS. Should I even go in to the different iterations of Laserdisc players? All in the $500 and $600 dollar range? My first DVD player was admittedly cheap in comparison, but I had to replace it within a year so I could get DTS....which also meant replacing my receiver for the same reason....for a total of nearly $2000.

It's just the nature of being a part of early technology adoption. And in the same vein of what's in HD-DVD's future, you won't really see a backlash when people can no longer buy new titles in HD-DVD because the studio went all Blu-Ray. There was no great rebellion when CED's died (as well they should have...but that's another story for another time....) or when the last Criterion LD pressing happened...and do they even still make pre-recorded VHS tapes?? Or the demise of SACDs and DVD-Audio...a really good example of what a format war can do if not resolved quickly.

Both sides can spin all they want, the fact of the matter is technology progresses, and MANY will get left with a machine that is/was not "the coming thing".

My old Pioneer Laserdisc still plays all my discs just fine....and there are a few titles I have that have yet to be released in any other format........


----------



## GrumpyBear

BudShark said:


> Umm - still not seeing a backlash. The backlash is brought on by HD-DVD enthusiasts or fringe reporters/bloggers trying to create something.
> 
> Mountain out of a mole-hill. Hell - the standard startup/load-times/eject times of these 1st gen players are a bigger issue than Profiles if you want something to drumbeat about.
> 
> Chris


Hmm, 
No backlash, by anybody out there, so its just a mountain out of a mole hill. 
Whoops, the cause for no backlash is there aren't any movies out yet that have the features, Wow imagine that. Movies have just, now been annouced, that will be using these features, Warner Bros, even said one of the reason's they waited was until the feature was in place. The Backlash will come about this, during XMAS season, when all those people who bought BRAND NEW Grace Period devices, and were not infromed they were Grace Period, start buying the new movies with all the cool features, and find out that the item they just bought last year, is outdated, and was outdated when they bought it and the BD people new it. You are talking the avg Joe's that think the guys at Circut City and Best Buy's are real tech guru's. 
Yes NO BACKLASH right now, no movies to get upset about, yet. This summer and Xmas, different story. Disney will cause more heartburn than anybody, cause you know they will be REAL busy with releasing locked up Vault Movies, with features that the people buying them are going to want. Sony was over the top with advertising, what any company would do, but they spent tons of cash on marketing getting people to buy, BD players, this past Xmas. Lots of upset people around the corner.


----------



## BudShark

GrumpyBear said:


> Hmm,
> No backlash, by anybody out there, so its just a mountain out of a mole hill.
> Whoops, the cause for no backlash is there aren't any movies out yet that have the features, Wow imagine that. Movies have just, now been annouced, that will be using these features, Warner Bros, even said one of the reason's they waited was until the feature was in place. The Backlash will come about this, during XMAS season, when all those people who bought BRAND NEW Grace Period devices, and were not infromed they were Grace Period, start buying the new movies with all the cool features, and find out that the item they just bought last year, is outdated, and was outdated when they bought it and the BD people new it. You are talking the avg Joe's that think the guys at Circut City and Best Buy's are real tech guru's.
> Yes NO BACKLASH right now, no movies to get upset about, yet. This summer and Xmas, different story. Disney will cause more heartburn than anybody, cause you know they will be REAL busy with releasing locked up Vault Movies, with features that the people buying them are going to want. Sony was over the top with advertising, what any company would do, but they spent tons of cash on marketing getting people to buy, BD players, this past Xmas. Lots of upset people around the corner.


Tons of upset people... thousands... hundreds of thousands. Millions (oh wait, can't be millions cuz they haven't sold that many players).

Ok, hundreds of thousands. And 90% of them will be furious because they watch movies for the extras. Oh wait - any cursory review shows less than a significant portion of people watch extras. And oh wait... its not that you will be left with nothing regarding extras - just that you can't do the PiP version, but the rest of the bonus features are there.

So - now speaking - even if there are 500,000 standalone blu-ray players to date (300,000 was the early december number), I'll be generous and state 250,000 people care about extras. And if the 250,000 of them are really Joe Sixpack, about 100,000 of them won't even know about the extra "extra" features.

That leaves the entire population of Salem, Oregon to wage this "holy war" of Blu-Ray profiles.  I'm heading for the hills right now... 

Chris


----------



## BudShark

Just an update... I just told my wife I bought a $250 door stop of a Blu-Ray player. She said - "Go figure - what else is new. Are you going to buy HD-DVD now?" I said, "Nope - just a new Blu-Ray player because this one can't do Picture in Picture director commentary." Her response... "Huh? You want to actually watch that? Whatever, you'll buy what you want anyways!" :rolling:

Chris


----------



## Tom Robertson

You know, I suspect there will be a bigger backlash when owners of component only TVs can't display HD material if HDCP is turned on everywhere. At least with profile 1.0 I can watch the movie in HD--but only if I have HDMI. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> You know, I suspect there will be a bigger backlash when owners of component only TVs can't display HD material if HDCP is turned on everywhere. At least with profile 1.0 I can watch the movie in HD--but only if I have HDMI.


I agree. HDCP could result in feature takeaway, which will cause problems with consumers. Unfortunately, by then we may be in the minority of HDTV users and they may no longer care about us. Hopefully it will never actually happen, but instead will become like the bogeyman something to scare you at night.


----------



## bobukcat

With all this talk and fretting over special features and studios supposedly holding off on releases until profile 1.1 or 2.0 players are being sold I can't help but think it would be the first time I can think of that the studios didn't release a base version now and then release 1 or 4 "special edition" versions within a 12-18 month period. Seriously, since when have they shown any hesitation to bombard us with multiple editions of the same movie(s) over and over?? I already own the Spiderman trilogy on BD and can't imagine how many more iterations of that we'll see within a 18 months. FWIW I will not be buying any of the other editions - no matter how many extras they pile on them - unless they find some way to make them look and sound even better, which is not likely based on the bitrates already achieved.


----------



## texaswolf

Well, like Blu Ray said..."they knew what they were getting into" about early adopters....

i'm safe with the PS3...and safe with the $99 HDDVD player...even if it melts when the war ends...



***Sorry for snagging Ricky Barnum, Bud.


----------



## PTravel

texaswolf said:


> except people weren't paying $400+ and expecting to replace it in 1-2years...they also were expecting the DVD player to play what was on the entire DVD. Claiming the extras is "no big deal" is pure spin also...you get it on both sides. I find it hard to believe that anyone spending half a grand on a player that wont play all contents of the movie they bought, isn't irked in one way or another.


I don't know where you're finding "these people." I bought a BluRay player for around half a grand (a BDP-S300). My only disappointment was that it couldn't play BD-R/BD-RE (I'm planning to burn my own hi-def DVDs). However, Sony fixed that with the most recent firmware upgrade.

I couldn't care less about all the "special features" in 1.1 and 2.0 disks. I only want to see the movie (and with as little compression as possible) and, if I really like the movie, a couple of "making of" featurettes. I don't want picture-in-picture, multiple angles at the same time, or any of these other gimmicks. I particularly am not interested in any internet content.

All I want to do is see the movie, as close to how the director visualized it as possible.

Needless to say, I'm not irked and have no plans to replace my player, even if 2.0 players drop to sub-$100.

Who do you know who is irked?

And, as I've said many times, I also own an HD-DVD player (an A3), so I have no dog in this fight at all.


----------



## texaswolf

PTravel said:


> I don't know where you're finding "these people." I bought a BluRay player for around half a grand (a BDP-S300). My only disappointment was that it couldn't play BD-R/BD-RE (I'm planning to burn my own hi-def DVDs). However, Sony fixed that with the most recent firmware upgrade.
> 
> I couldn't care less about all the "special features" in 1.1 and 2.0 disks. I only want to see the movie (and with as little compression as possible) and, if I really like the movie, a couple of "making of" featurettes. I don't want picture-in-picture, multiple angles at the same time, or any of these other gimmicks. I particularly am not interested in any internet content.
> 
> All I want to do is see the movie, as close to how the director visualized it as possible.
> 
> Needless to say, I'm not irked and have no plans to replace my player, even if 2.0 players drop to sub-$100.
> 
> Who do you know who is irked?
> 
> And, as I've said many times, I also own an HD-DVD player (an A3), so I have no dog in this fight at all.


im just simply saying...pay that much..it should play everything on the disc. I don't know of anyone myself...but obviousy their are people pissed off, since BR felt the need to put the "knew what they were getting into" statement out.

not everyone wants to spend half a grand on a player that "just plays the movie"...they want the whole "Blu Ray" experiance.

Come on guys, I always hear the blu side talk about "quality" and "superior format" while the red is always talking about "low prices" and "consumer friendly".....now as soon as the "quality" players start cutting edges...it's "no big deal"?

whatever...like i said i enjoy both formats on my players, but i'm not blind enough to not admit screw ups by either camp.


----------



## DCSholtis

Well said.


----------



## BudShark

texaswolf said:


> (snip)
> Come on guys, I always hear the blu side talk about "quality" and "superior format" while the red is always talking about "low prices" and "consumer friendly".....now as soon as the "quality" players start cutting edges...it's "no big deal"?
> 
> whatever...like i said i enjoy both formats on my players, but i'm not blind enough to not admit screw ups by either camp.


Ok - lets be straight on this since we are apparently "spinning".

Show me *ONE* press release, statement, box art, new player, news article, or commercial that ever stated Blu-Ray played Picture in Picture director features, had Internet connectivity, or any other bells and whistles.

Every Blu-Ray player sold to date (edit: minus PS3 and the newer Panny) was sold without any mention of these "Extra features". No one bought one under the idea they got these things.

The entire thing is "made up" by HD-DVD who had this from the beginning. Does this make HD-DVD the better technology? In some peoples eyes yes. But just because HD-DVD HAD it, doesn't mean Blu-Ray told their purchasers they HAD it too. They NEVER did. Not once.

Now - TODAY - Blu-Ray is talking about moving to the next version. The next version will have PiP and BD-Java. Will 1.1 discs play in 1.0 players? Yep - sure will. Will 1.0 discs be re-released as 1.1? If the studio thinks they can make money.

But - And this is important - at NO point in time did ANY Blu-Ray purchaser buy a Blu-Ray player under the guise of getting 1.1 features. It was NEVER a topic in the Blu-Ray world that you could/would do this. It was an HD-DVD feature, and something the HD-DVD people hung their caps on.

So the Blu-Ray technology moves on and gets this new feature. Big fricken deal. It still does NOT mean a single current purchaser of Blu-Ray movies bought a single Blu-Ray player today thinking they are getting these features. The Blu-Ray players to date have been sold under the merits of 1080P and studio support. You can produce no evidence otherwise. And to say that anyone who did enough research to *know* about the profiles and "future" features, but didn't do enough research to know what players could do what is the ultimate in spin-doctoring.

With all that said - I can understand how an HD-DVD person being forced towards Blu-Ray because of studio support is upset they lost something. Makes sense. But to imply that Blu-Ray "lied", "cheated", "hid", "promised" something that they never did - or to think that there will be a backlash because everyone bought their players thinking they'd get these "unannounced" features is dis-ingenious and definitely spinning it.

Chris


----------



## turey22

will blueray work if i have a 1080i tv?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

turey22 said:


> will blueray work if i have a 1080i tv?


Yes, but just set it for 1080i not 1080p.


----------



## Jason Nipp

BudShark said:


> ...Show me *ONE* press release, statement, box art, new player, news article, or commercial that ever stated Blu-Ray played Picture in Picture director features, had Internet connectivity, or any other bells and whistles...


I didn't expect these features, how would they enable ethernet on my BDP-S1, it doesn't even have an ethernet connection. I agree I never saw PiP commentary advertised.


----------



## DCSholtis

BudShark said:


> Ok - lets be straight on this since we are apparently "spinning".
> 
> Show me *ONE* press release, statement, box art, new player, news article, or commercial that ever stated Blu-Ray played Picture in Picture director features, had Internet connectivity, or any other bells and whistles.
> 
> Every Blu-Ray player sold to date (edit: minus PS3 and the newer Panny) was sold without any mention of these "Extra features". No one bought one under the idea they got these things.
> 
> The entire thing is "made up" by HD-DVD who had this from the beginning. Does this make HD-DVD the better technology? In some peoples eyes yes. But just because HD-DVD HAD it, doesn't mean Blu-Ray told their purchasers they HAD it too. They NEVER did. Not once.
> 
> Now - TODAY - Blu-Ray is talking about moving to the next version. The next version will have PiP and BD-Java. Will 1.1 discs play in 1.0 players? Yep - sure will. Will 1.0 discs be re-released as 1.1? If the studio thinks they can make money.
> 
> But - And this is important - at NO point in time did ANY Blu-Ray purchaser buy a Blu-Ray player under the guise of getting 1.1 features. It was NEVER a topic in the Blu-Ray world that you could/would do this. It was an HD-DVD feature, and something the HD-DVD people hung their caps on.
> 
> So the Blu-Ray technology moves on and gets this new feature. Big fricken deal. It still does NOT mean a single current purchaser of Blu-Ray movies bought a single Blu-Ray player today thinking they are getting these features. The Blu-Ray players to date have been sold under the merits of 1080P and studio support. You can produce no evidence otherwise. And to say that anyone who did enough research to *know* about the profiles and "future" features, but didn't do enough research to know what players could do what is the ultimate in spin-doctoring.
> 
> With all that said - *I can understand how an HD-DVD person being forced towards Blu-Ray because of studio support* is upset they lost something. Makes sense. But to imply that Blu-Ray "lied", "cheated", "hid", "promised" something that they never did - or to think that there will be a backlash because everyone bought their players thinking they'd get these "unannounced" features is dis-ingenious and definitely spinning it.
> 
> Chris


That part of your statement is false. It depends on who has the overseas rights to a particular title. It IS possible that certain titles that are Blu exclusive in the US can be found in HD DVD via imports. I can site a few examples, such as the upcoming Terminator 2:Ultimate Edition there are at least 3 different versions, UK, French and German. UK and French versions are virtually the same except the UK version only has the director's cut, whereas the French version has both versions. German version out next month is a new remastered version with new, improved PQ and extras. Another example is the movie Crank, its Blu exclusive here but in Germany its HD DVD. The PQ on that version is supposedly superior to the Blu version. I'll be checking that out for myself as I just purchased the Blu version and am purchasing the Red version tonight.


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> Ok - lets be straight on this since we are apparently "spinning".
> 
> Show me *ONE* press release, statement, box art, new player, news article, or commercial that ever stated Blu-Ray played Picture in Picture director features, had Internet connectivity, or any other bells and whistles.
> 
> Every Blu-Ray player sold to date (edit: minus PS3 and the newer Panny) was sold without any mention of these "Extra features". No one bought one under the idea they got these things.
> 
> The entire thing is "made up" by HD-DVD who had this from the beginning. Does this make HD-DVD the better technology? In some peoples eyes yes. But just because HD-DVD HAD it, doesn't mean Blu-Ray told their purchasers they HAD it too. They NEVER did. Not once.
> 
> Now - TODAY - Blu-Ray is talking about moving to the next version. The next version will have PiP and BD-Java. Will 1.1 discs play in 1.0 players? Yep - sure will. Will 1.0 discs be re-released as 1.1? If the studio thinks they can make money.
> 
> But - And this is important - at NO point in time did ANY Blu-Ray purchaser buy a Blu-Ray player under the guise of getting 1.1 features. It was NEVER a topic in the Blu-Ray world that you could/would do this. It was an HD-DVD feature, and something the HD-DVD people hung their caps on.
> 
> So the Blu-Ray technology moves on and gets this new feature. Big fricken deal. It still does NOT mean a single current purchaser of Blu-Ray movies bought a single Blu-Ray player today thinking they are getting these features. The Blu-Ray players to date have been sold under the merits of 1080P and studio support. You can produce no evidence otherwise. And to say that anyone who did enough research to *know* about the profiles and "future" features, but didn't do enough research to know what players could do what is the ultimate in spin-doctoring.
> 
> With all that said - I can understand how an HD-DVD person being forced towards Blu-Ray because of studio support is upset they lost something. Makes sense. But to imply that Blu-Ray "lied", "cheated", "hid", "promised" something that they never did - or to think that there will be a backlash because everyone bought their players thinking they'd get these "unannounced" features is dis-ingenious and definitely spinning it.
> 
> Chris


At no point in my post did i mention that blu ray promised anything, not sure what you are referring to. I simply stated that i would be ticked off spending that much on a player and it won't play all the features on the disc....and that obviously people are upset about it....because of BR's response of "they knew what they were getting into"...that came from here:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/14/blu-ray-early-adopters-knew-what-they-were-getting-into-appar/



> Blu-ray early adopters "knew what they were getting into," apparently
> 
> Posted Jan 14th 2008 9:09PM by Darren Murph
> Filed under: Industry, Blu-ray, Players
> As if there hasn't been enough debate over the inability of Profile 1.0 players to make the leap to Profile 1.1 / 2.0, the folks manning the Blu-ray booth at CES gave us all something else to yap about. According to BetaNews, BD representatives on hand proclaimed that early adopters "knew what they were getting into" when they purchased a player that lacked advanced functionality such as Bonus View and BD Live. Apparently, BDA President Andy Parsons felt the same way, as he noted that it was par for the course for technology to evolve and change. 'Course, we suppose there's no room to argue with that, but we can certainly sympathize with folks yearning for an easier way to receive Profile updates. Then again, it's not like the Blu camp had much choice but to pull the trigger and rush players to market if it wanted to keep pace with HD DVD, right?


So if BR executives think that the early adopters knew....then they must have told them, right? I don't know...but i also wasn't looking for the disclaimer that said "wont do this, this or this". I guess people were expecting for a $400+ player to do play whats on the disc...you know..."not confuse the consumer"....myself, i was getting a ps3 either way...turns out, that was the best bet for the buck on a BR player. Then picked up the $99 HDDVD player that will play all my HDDVD's.


----------



## BudShark

texaswolf said:


> At no point in my post did i mention that blu ray promised anything, not sure what you are referring to. I simply stated that i would be ticked off spending that much on a player and it won't play all the features on the disc....and that obviously people are upset about it....because of BR's response of "they knew what they were getting into"...that came from here:
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/14...ng-into-appar/


Ok - well this will certainly make me sound like a fanboy, but I am highly critical of anything that is falsely portrayed regardless of source.

So here goes - that has to be about the worst bit of journalism ever written - but its from engadget so...

Quote #1: Some unnamed Blu-Ray booth people quoted by another site - with or without a known affiliation who may or may not be official representatives of some and or all, or none of the companies said "they knew what they were getting into".

Quote #2: An official Blu-Ray exec stated technology changes and evolves

Quote #3: The writer of the article adds editorial about having to push Blu-Ray out early, rush to market, etc.

So we have 3 separate sources, weaved together into a short article, and leading people to believe Blu-Ray doesn't care about consumers and was "rushed" to market. Of course, the funny part about this is the Blu-Ray official representative who was quoted did not say, nor imply, either one of those things.

Creative journalism... gotta love it.



texaswolf said:


> So if BR executives think that the early adopters knew....then they must have told them, right? I don't know...but i also wasn't looking for the disclaimer that said "wont do this, this or this". I guess people were expecting for a $400+ player to do play whats on the disc....


Hmmm - lets see. My Sony audio receiver didn't come with a disclaimer that it can't do HD radio, satellite, etc - yet I know for a fact Sony was "working" on these things when they made my receiver. Guess they should've waited until this stuff was done.

And with respect to the playing whats on the disc... I don't know... but last I checked my Blu-Ray player played 100% of discs and 100% of the features on every disc that was released when I bought it.

And - don't forget my original point which is most people don't care about the extra features, and by the time they become widespread, will be more than happy to retire the 1st gen Blu-Ray to a secondary purpose and buy a 1.1 or 2.0 profile player for $150-$200.

Chris


----------



## machavez00

DCSholtis said:


> That part of your statement is false. It depends on who has the overseas rights to a particular title. It IS possible that certain titles that are Blu exclusive in the US can be found in HD DVD via imports. I can site a few examples, such as the upcoming Terminator 2:Ultimate Edition there are at least 3 different versions, UK, French and German. UK and French versions are virtually the same except the UK version only has the director's cut, whereas the French version has both versions. German version out next month is a new remastered version with new, improved PQ and extras. Another example is the movie Crank, its Blu exclusive here but in Germany its HD DVD. The PQ on that version is supposedly superior to the Blu version. I'll be checking that out for myself as I just purchased the Blu version and am purchasing the Red version tonight.




















I have found Sony titles on HD DVD


----------



## BudShark

DCSholtis said:


> That part of your statement is false.


Give me a call when you can buy a Fox, Sony, Disney, etc movie at Wal-Mart, Target, BestBuy, etc in the US on HD-DVD - or rent them at Blockbuster, NetFlix, etc. Until then - I'll stand by my comment. Those who are highly motivated may or will find a way around certain things... but it doesn't change the fact that for US consumers studio exclusivity is weighted heavily to Blu-Ray now.


----------



## dhhaines

BudShark said:


> Give me a call when you can buy a Fox, Sony, Disney, etc movie at Wal-Mart, Target, BestBuy, etc in the US on HD-DVD - or rent them at Blockbuster, NetFlix, etc. Until then - I'll stand by my comment. Those who are highly motivated may or will find a way around certain things... but it doesn't change the fact that for US consumers studio exclusivity is weighted heavily to Blu-Ray now.


 But NOT in the overseas markets, which has alot more influence than most Americans give it.


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## Tom Robertson

Please remember how movies are financed, made, and distributed today. Many times a studio will sell rights to a movie to other studios or distributors in various regions. Those other studios very well might release in HD-DVD outside the US even if the US distributor or US studio won't.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## BudShark

dhhaines said:


> But NOT in the overseas markets, which has alot more influence than most Americans give it.


Really? Care to cite references? Everything released to date shows 2007 was a 3:1 sales advantage of Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD in Europe. So... if there is a lot more influence over there than Americans give it we should see HD-DVD closing up shop sooner rather than later.

Chris

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/15552/53/

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35043/98/

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/n...-ray-outselling-hddvd-worldwide-figures.phtml


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## DCSholtis

Tom Robertson said:


> Please remember how movies are financed, made, and distributed today. Many times a studio will sell rights to a movie to other studios or distributors in various regions. Those other studios very well might release in HD-DVD outside the US even if the US distributor or US studio won't.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You're exactly right Tom. All one has to do is pick a title of a movie, go to IMOB.com and see who the distributors are for various countries.


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## Tom Robertson

IMDB perchance? (One of my favorite sites that isn't DBStalk.com.)


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## GrumpyBear

BudShark said:


> And - don't forget my original point which is most people don't care about the extra features, and by the time they become widespread, will be more than happy to retire the 1st gen Blu-Ray to a secondary purpose and buy a 1.1 or 2.0 profile player for $150-$200.
> 
> Chris


As for rather BD, Lied, Decieved, or Cheated anybody. The very fact that they withheld from the boxes the the product was a GRACE Period device, is pretty misleading. 
Stated in both press releases and on the box's, that BD-players had enhanced BD-J support, wonder how many people would have bought a BD-player, knowing it was a Grace Period profile, or Beta Profile, that didn't support BD-Java Spec's, because it wasn't mandatory to support all features in the Spec, Cutting edge people Yes, average Joe... not so many.

Sony from the very beginning as said, even its own press releases, Enhanced BD-Java functionality, Press release from 2006
http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/home_audio_video/blu-ray_disc/release/26539.html

Now what is and was BD-Java Funtionality?!?!
According to the BD-Java Specifications, written in 2005, and still posted here
http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/intro_bdj.htm

As you can see, PiP, Internet connectivty, and local storage have, been part of the Enhanced BD-Java from the BEGINNING, whoops none of that included in any device, even though its part of the spec's. Because even though the spec was written, BD didn't make it "mandatory" to have the features, even though they were saying Enhanced BD-J, . Maybe because even Sony's mighty PS3 can't even do PiP, and Movie people have had to come up with work arounds, in the BD market space. BD maker could say Enhanced, but not have to support all its features. Granted if somebody looked up Enhanced BD-J, they could be confused, Spec's say one thing, box they are buying didn't have them, just said, Ehanced BD-Java.

As for the fact that PiP not being a major issue, well I thought I would include this from last year.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/543
Plus Warner Bros. own press release, already posted in this forum, talks about PiP, sounds PRETTY important.

They idea that by this Xmas, when movies come out with PiP and other features, Warner, Fox, Disney have already announced movies, that people with a BD that is just a year old, as most sold this past Xmas were still Grace Period, wont be able to play those features, and should just have to lump it and buy a new one cause technology moves along, is pretty cavalier, for a box that still says, Enhanced BD-Java on it. You wont find it for $150-$200 either.

Were some say, PiP, Internet, and local storage was never mentioned, so nobody lied to anybody, press releases and box's plainly say Enhanced BD-Java on them, some people should have done more reading to find out what Enhanced BD-Java was. Press releases and Box's didn't say that, "Actually" Supporting Enhanced BD-Java features was NOT "manditory", nor did they say which Features the were supporting and which ones they weren't supporting. Pretty misleading.

Were some say, PiP and Internet features are unimportant, the studio's say otherwise, and when you buy a Product that states it supports something, ie Enhanched BD-Java features, and doesn't support them "all" features cause it wasn't manditory, That is pretty misleading. Granted its Marketing to confuse the PT Barnum crowd, its still MISLEADING THEM, stating one thing(Enhanced BD-java support) and supporting something else(its not Manditory to do).

MSNBC, and Fox News(didn't get to see in HD though, ah different rant) both read the same report this morning, stating that over 70% of Americans saw no reason to upgrade to HD for dvd's, as they didn't see enough benefit for it. Maybe all this craziness, and misleading products and spec's is keeping them away.


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> Ok - well this will certainly make me sound like a fanboy, but I am highly critical of anything that is falsely portrayed regardless of source.
> 
> So here goes - that has to be about the worst bit of journalism ever written - but its from engadget so...
> 
> Quote #1: Some unnamed Blu-Ray booth people quoted by another site - with or without a known affiliation who may or may not be official representatives of some and or all, or none of the companies said "they knew what they were getting into".
> 
> Quote #2: An official Blu-Ray exec stated technology changes and evolves
> 
> Quote #3: The writer of the article adds editorial about having to push Blu-Ray out early, rush to market, etc.
> 
> So we have 3 separate sources, weaved together into a short article, and leading people to believe Blu-Ray doesn't care about consumers and was "rushed" to market. Of course, the funny part about this is the Blu-Ray official representative who was quoted did not say, nor imply, either one of those things.
> 
> Creative journalism... gotta love it.
> 
> Hmmm - lets see. My Sony audio receiver didn't come with a disclaimer that it can't do HD radio, satellite, etc - yet I know for a fact Sony was "working" on these things when they made my receiver. Guess they should've waited until this stuff was done.
> 
> And with respect to the playing whats on the disc... I don't know... but last I checked my Blu-Ray player played 100% of discs and 100% of the features on every disc that was released when I bought it.
> 
> And - don't forget my original point which is most people don't care about the extra features, and by the time they become widespread, will be more than happy to retire the 1st gen Blu-Ray to a secondary purpose and buy a 1.1 or 2.0 profile player for $150-$200.
> 
> Chris


You mean i can't take everything on Engadget as gospel? lol
Your right, it does make you sound like a Fanboy, but i really know your not...a lot of things i say make me sound like a HDDVD fanboy, but it's more just being annoyed by things on the Blu side.

The funny part is, Engadget is a Blu supporter. So i was taking it that they actually were hanging around the Blu booth. But you can find it anywhere:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Blu-...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I'm not trying to start a flame war...just saying i think it sucks...and that kind of response from them sucks.


----------



## dhhaines

BudShark said:


> Really? Care to cite references? Everything released to date shows 2007 was a 3:1 sales advantage of Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD in Europe. So... if there is a lot more influence over there than Americans give it we should see HD-DVD closing up shop sooner rather than later.
> 
> Chris
> 
> http://www.itwire.com/content/view/15552/53/
> 
> http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35043/98/
> 
> http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/n...-ray-outselling-hddvd-worldwide-figures.phtml


 The thing is that in at least one of the articles you link to, a studio has gone back to releasing HD-DVD after announcing it was going Blu exclusive. The format "war" is far from over. That won't be until one format or the other out sells "plain old" DVD or at least comes close.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care which format gets the "win" as I own both. My fear is that a totally different format will come along before either of these really take hold. And don't tell me BLU is winning anything. DVD's still blow them out of the water everyday in sales.


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## HIPAR

dhhaines said:


> .... My fear is that a totally different format will come along before either of these really take hold. And don't tell me BLU is winning anything. DVD's still blow them out of the water everyday in sales.


That would be 'poetic justice' but the movie companies would have to throw up their arms and proclaim 'we've had it with this nonsense' for that to happen.

--- CHAS


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## GrumpyBear

dhhaines,
you are right there.

"Warner Bros.' move to exclusively release in the Blu-ray disc format is a strategic decision focused on the long term and the most direct way to give consumers what they want," said Meyer. "The window of opportunity for high-definition DVD could be missed if format confusion continues to linger. We believe that exclusively distributing in Blu-ray will further the potential for mass market success and ultimately benefit retailers, producers, and most importantly, consumers"

All the Studio's have money, in either BD or HD-DvD, and want to make sure that they break even on this soon, or the Boat will just flat out leave them in the dust, over both formats, and be like LaserDisc, another format that just never gained enough ground, no matter how superior it was.

I too don't care, I recently picked up a HD-DvD, only because the 9 out of the 10 movies were 1. Movies I wanted and 2. were cheaper than if I bought them on DVD, and got a new DVD player that upconverts. I plan on buying a PS3, it just needs a few more features.

BD has always had an advantage, in my view. NOT because of the players, but because of that little blu light, works not only with DvD's but where the technlogy will do us the most good, in *Hard Drives*, as well, and were more of those little blu lights belong. So come on Western Digital and Hitachi, but more of those pretty blu lights.


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## GrumpyBear

HIPAR said:


> That would be 'poetic justice' but the movie companies would have to throw up their arms and proclaim 'we've had it with this nonsense' for that to happen.
> 
> --- CHAS


To much money has been exchanged between the Studio's for this to happen anytime soon. Both sides have spent good amounts of money, for Recruiting and retention. Heck even Disney wont deny Money rumors, just wont talk how much.
It is *justice* right now that over 70% of the buying market sees no reason to move to either format, has to be KILLING them.


----------



## bobukcat

dhhaines said:


> The thing is that in at least one of the articles you link to, a studio has gone back to releasing HD-DVD after announcing it was going Blu exclusive. The format "war" is far from over. That won't be until one format or the other out sells "plain old" DVD or at least comes close.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't care which format gets the "win" as I own both. My fear is that a totally different format will come along before either of these really take hold. And don't tell me BLU is winning anything. DVD's still blow them out of the water everyday in sales.


I see your point but disagree that one format needs to outsell DVD to have won the "war". If either side gets 100% of studios to support their format I think you'll have your winner and the other one will fade to oblivion. Also keep in mind that recent data shows that HDM is outpacing what DVD did at the same point in the sales cycle and momentum is building. It could still all fall apart and both die to be supplanted by something else, but there are some promising trends.

FWIW, I really believe that if the two sides could have worked out their differences and relased one HDM format instead of two it would be way ahead of the curve and kicking serious butt and here is why: At what other point has a technology like DVD or VHS or HDM been released when there was such a state of flux in the display technology?? HD sets are selling like mad and people are upgrading because of the digital transition - it's a much easier to sell someone that's already in your store buying a new HD set an HDM player than it would have been if the transistion and overall HD upgrade trend were not occuring at the same time.

The industry really missed the boat on this one!


----------



## HIPAR

GrumpyBear said:


> ... It is *justice* right now that over 70% of the buying market sees no reason to move to either format, has to be KILLING them.


I dispensed a bit of justice myself the other day. I found myself with some 'disposable cash' and went out shopping for some movies. I found 'The Right Stuff' and 'Men In Black' on sale and bought them both on regular old DVD for $20 total. They both play well on my HD-A3 and look really nice upconverted on the 37 inch Sharp AQUOS.

I've had it with the FUDsters and propagandists. I chose poorly but I'm only choosing once.

--- CHAS


----------



## texaswolf

HIPAR said:


> That would be 'poetic justice' but the movie companies would have to throw up their arms and proclaim 'we've had it with this nonsense' for that to happen.
> 
> --- CHAS


or better yet, dual players keep getting lower in prices and start out selling either side, and studios are forced to go neutral or THD...and the consumer wins


----------



## texaswolf

> FWIW, I really believe that if the two sides could have worked out their differences and relased one HDM format instead of two it would be way ahead of the curve and kicking serious butt and here is why: At what other point has a technology like DVD or VHS or HDM been released when there was such a state of flux in the display technology?? HD sets are selling like mad and people are upgrading because of the digital transition - it's a much easier to sell someone that's already in your store buying a new HD set an HDM player than it would have been if the transistion and overall HD upgrade trend were not occuring at the same time.
> 
> The industry really missed the boat on this one!


Bingo:righton:

Didn't HDDVD folks offer this to the BR camp before the war even began, and BR said no?


----------



## HIPAR

texaswolf said:


> or better yet, dual players keep getting lower in prices and start out selling either side, and studios are forced to go neutral or THD...and the consumer wins


The problem with that hypothesis is the real money is from the sale of disks and not the players .. the often cited Razor Blade business model.

If everyone has a dual mode player then the movie companies wouldn't need to go neutral because they can do what they want without fear of alienating anybody.

--- CHAS


----------



## GrumpyBear

bobukcat said:


> I see your point but disagree that one format needs to outsell DVD to have won the "war". If either side gets 100% of studios to support their format I think you'll have your winner and the other one will fade to oblivion. Also keep in mind that recent data shows that HDM is outpacing what DVD did at the same point in the sales cycle and momentum is building. It could still all fall apart and both die to be supplanted by something else, but there are some promising trends.
> 
> FWIW, I really believe that if the two sides could have worked out their differences and relased one HDM format instead of two it would be way ahead of the curve and kicking serious butt and here is why: At what other point has a technology like DVD or VHS or HDM been released when there was such a state of flux in the display technology?? HD sets are selling like mad and people are upgrading because of the digital transition - it's a much easier to sell someone that's already in your store buying a new HD set an HDM player than it would have been if the transistion and overall HD upgrade trend were not occuring at the same time.
> 
> The industry really missed the boat on this one!


Toshiba and Sony, as the leads of both groups, equally share responsiblity for this. Both sides were wrong on this issue, and some big ego's, from both companies, should take all the blame.
HDM(I like that acronym) should have been ready 2 years ago, to pounce on the HD and digital explosion.(Wait the standards were ready and published 2 years ago, one group did all the features, the other just delayed them, as thier flagship products didn't work correctly, with the standards)

Boat hasn't been missed YET, but the studio's are neverous, that they have invested large sum's of money, that might not get the necessary traction, to hold of the next up and coming technology. We can argue what that possible replacement is, but its coming on soon, always does, and might be closer than most of us think.

Now where is that Western Digital 8tb drive?!?!?!?!?! come on but that blu ray to its best use.


----------



## texaswolf

HIPAR said:


> The problem with that hypothesis is the real money is from the sale of disks and not the players .. the often cited Razor Blade business model.
> 
> If everyone has a dual mode player then the movie companies wouldn't need to go neutral because they can do what they want without fear of alienating anybody.
> 
> --- CHAS


true, but a large amount of dual players would allow them to release on a THD disc, and make more money...since either side could play it.


----------



## Mike728

texaswolf said:


> true, but a large amount of dual players would allow them to release on a THD disc, and make more money...since either side could play it.


Why would they need a large amount of dual players for that?


----------



## dhhaines

HIPAR said:


> The problem with that hypothesis is the real money is from the sale of disks and not the players .. the often cited Razor Blade business model.
> 
> If everyone has a dual mode player then the movie companies wouldn't need to go neutral because they can do what they want without fear of alienating anybody.
> 
> --- CHAS


 But here's the thing.... how long has the video gaming industry been producing multi format games? It's turning into the same type of thing. The only difference is that the movie studios are too cheap to just suck it up and put out movies in both formats and let the consumer decide which one... or maybe even both, to buy.

I like my HD-DVD player better, so if I had the choice I'd buy HD-DVD, but with some studios I don't have that choice so I buy BD.

I guess it really doesn't matter much though, in <5 years I'll be replacing them with something else.:icon_dumm


----------



## Tom Robertson

The gaming industry is selling millions of units each month and each gaming platform has their niche improvements over the others or key price point as well.

This war is not about niche improvements that users will "really" go after nor about price points that excite the consumer. This is a bad decision by Toshiba and Sony not to find a middle ground as two formats can't survive to replace the previous format.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> Bingo:righton:
> 
> Didn't HDDVD folks offer this to the BR camp before the war even began, and BR said no?


Not quite. The DVD Consortium offered a deal yes, but it was to adopt one format and abolish the other. The loser gets a percentage of royalties. Sony and Philips lost their butts last time they did this, why should Sony settle for an even lower peice of the action this time. Corporations need to recover NRE and R&D costs, and make a profit. Without profit they can not sustain existance. And regardless of what anyone thinks, everyone is entitled to make a profit and grow their company.


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> true, but a large amount of dual players would allow them to release on a THD disc, and make more money...since either side could play it.


I wouldn't mind seeing a THD disc. That would be a neutral approach, but I am sure disc sales would actually be lower cause I can't imagine THD not being costlier that a single format disc.


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> true, but a large amount of dual players would allow them to release on a THD disc, and make more money...since either side could play it.


I agree with Mike728... A THD disc could play on either player, a Dual format player would not be required. This one doesn't make sense...


----------



## dhhaines

Tom Robertson said:


> The gaming industry is selling millions of units each month and each gaming platform has their niche improvements over the others or key price point as well.
> 
> This war is not about niche improvements that users will "really" go after nor about price points that excite the consumer. This is a bad decision by Toshiba and Sony not to find a middle ground as two formats can't survive to replace the previous format.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


 Oh, I agree. I just think that the studios are just adding to the confusion by supporting one or the other. Bottom line is the studios make money by selling the content, not the hardware. If they release in both formats, the consumer will win because then the consumer chooses the best value in hardware AND can play all content put out by all studios. Instead of either having to buy both, as I did, or choosing which studio they would watch content from more. I would much rather make my own choice as far as hardware goes instead of being "forced" over by the studios.

IMHO the big mass of consumers will not buy into either format until there IS only one or the studios release their titles in both. So I think the studios are also "missing the boat" so to speak.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Pearsonally, I'm glad we don't have dual format disks, I hate two sided disks and hate worst reading the little itty bitty type in the inside colar of the dvd!


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## ebaltz

MSN Article advising "sell, sell, sell...and never look back"

http://tech.msn.com/news/articlecnet.aspx?cp-documentid=6172887&icid=tg6172887&GT1=10938


----------



## Jason Nipp

I have more Blu Ray than HD-DVD movies, and I still find that article a tad on the Blu Ray biased side.

I see he said if HD-DVD goes away in several weeks or a few months.... I wouldn't think Tosh would throw in the towel that quickly.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> MSN Article advising "sell, sell, sell...and never look back"


Every time this "recommendation" comes up, I always ask the same question..

IF HD DVD is "dead" then who are you going to "sell sell sell" to?

You can't sell if there are no buyers... and if you find buyers, then you are refuting the very concept that HD DVD isn't selling.

It's a double-edged sword... You can't "sell while the getting's good" unless there are buyers, and if there are buyers, then there is interest in the format.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> Every time this "recommendation" comes up, I always ask the same question..
> 
> IF HD DVD is "dead" then who are you going to "sell sell sell" to?
> 
> You can't sell if there are no buyers... and if you find buyers, then you are refuting the very concept that HD DVD isn't selling.
> 
> It's a double-edged sword... You can't "sell while the getting's good" unless there are buyers, and if there are buyers, then there is interest in the format.


agreed....people still have working Beta max, and laser disc.....i don't think hddvds will melt if they lose also.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by texaswolf View Post
> true, but a large amount of dual players would allow them to release on a THD disc, and make more money...since either side could play it.
> I agree with Mike728... A THD disc could play on either player, a Dual format player would not be required. This one doesn't make sense...


yeah that came out wrong...scratch it.


----------



## ebaltz

Microsoft's price cut on 360 HD DVD add-on could signal MS dumping the product while they still can. The tide continues...

http://publications.mediapost.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.showArticleHomePage&art_aid=76070


----------



## dhhaines

HDMe said:


> Every time this "recommendation" comes up, I always ask the same question..
> 
> IF HD DVD is "dead" then who are you going to "sell sell sell" to?
> 
> You can't sell if there are no buyers... and if you find buyers, then you are refuting the very concept that HD DVD isn't selling.
> 
> It's a double-edged sword... You can't "sell while the getting's good" unless there are buyers, and if there are buyers, then there is interest in the format.


 Yep... and the other thing is until the BD players come down to $100 and change even BD won't take a big hold in the market. You can say all you want how BD is %70 of sales but "plain old" DVD is still the king until the players get to be compatable in price to DVD players.
The manufacturers know this which is why they haven't started to ramp down DVD production.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> Microsoft's price cut on 360 HD DVD add-on could signal MS dumping the product while they still can. The tide continues...


Every year several local car dealerships have "fire sales" on Fords and Chevys... I guess cars will not be available anymore either!


----------



## machavez00

ebaltz said:


> Microsoft's price cut on 360 HD DVD add-on could signal MS dumping the product while they still can. The tide continues...
> 
> http://publications.mediapost.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.showArticleHomePage&art_aid=76070


That's because the new 360's with built in HD DVD are on the way. MS should have done that to begin with. It would have put a different take on the mess.


----------



## elaclair

dhhaines said:


> IMHO the big mass of consumers will not buy into either format until there IS only one or the studios release their titles in both. So I think the studios are also "missing the boat" so to speak.


You hit the nail on the head with that one. Not to mention there are a LOT (me included) of people that have either stopped, or minimized their purchases of SD DVDs while they wait for the format war mess to be straightened out.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Me too, I don't buy many DVD's whilst I await a solution to the problem.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ebaltz

machavez00 said:


> That's because the new 360's with built in HD DVD are on the way. MS should have done that to begin with. It would have put a different take on the mess.


And your private conversations with Microsoft reveal this?


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> Every year several local car dealerships have "fire sales" on Fords and Chevys... I guess cars will not be available anymore either!


Not those models. Spin it however you want. Its one story after another. There aren't any stories about how Blu-ray is having firesales and media urging people to to switch to the winner HD DVD and on an on, almost any news of any kind only shows that Blu-ray is winning, has been winning will continue to win. No stories like that about HD DVD, just sad people clinging to something they want to be true and spinning everything else a million ways to make up look like down and white look like black. Hey if that's what keeps you going, keep working at it. You are going to have a lot more work ahead of you.


----------



## ebaltz

dhhaines said:


> Yep... and the other thing is until the BD players come down to $100 and change even BD won't take a big hold in the market. You can say all you want how BD is %70 of sales but "plain old" DVD is still the king until the players get to be compatable in price to DVD players.
> The manufacturers know this which is why they haven't started to ramp down DVD production.


Yep just like it was with DVDs over VHS, I didn't buy my first DVD player until 2000, but DVD did take over. Hi Def DVD will takeover, its just a matter of time.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> Not those models. Spin it however you want. Its one story after another. There aren't any stories about how Blu-ray is having firesales and media urging people to to switch to the winner HD DVD and on an on, almost any news of any kind only shows that Blu-ray is winning, has been winning will continue to win. No stories like that about HD DVD, just sad people clinging to something they want to be true and spinning everything else a million ways to make up look like down and white look like black. Hey if that's what keeps you going, keep working at it. You are going to have a lot more work ahead of you.


Everybody is spinning. I am getting dizzy there is so much spinning! Blu ray doesn't say "we are winning"... fans are saying that. Same goes for HD DVD. Companies don't need to declare themselves a winner, the market does that for them.

I could spin every BOGO sale on Blu ray discs as a "fire sale" if I wanted... otherwise why would they need to sell them at half price? If Blu ray was the clear "winner" then they shouldn't have to sell them at half price so often... but I choose not to declare such things as "fire sales" because I recognize them for what they are... marketing. Same thing for HD DVD sales.

It's only a fire sale if you reduce prices on an increasing basis to reduce inventory and are NOT producing new units to replenish stock... there has been no indication that Toshiba has stopped making HD DVD players... nor indication that HD DVDs are going to be stopped for those players.

Fact of the matter is, if Blu ray truly has "won", then folks like yourself wouldn't have to scramble to find articles and keep posting about how Blu ray has won. It would be obvious to everyone without need for declaration.

Simply put, right now HD DVD and Blu ray are both losing to DVD by a wide margin... so there's plenty of room for both formats until something changes in the marketplace. Meanwhile, I'll happily keep buying those new HD DVD movies that keep coming out each month!


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> Everybody is spinning. I am getting dizzy there is so much spinning! Blu ray doesn't say "we are winning"... fans are saying that. Same goes for HD DVD. Companies don't need to declare themselves a winner, the market does that for them.
> 
> I could spin every BOGO sale on Blu ray discs as a "fire sale" if I wanted... otherwise why would they need to sell them at half price? If Blu ray was the clear "winner" then they shouldn't have to sell them at half price so often... but I choose not to declare such things as "fire sales" because I recognize them for what they are... marketing. Same thing for HD DVD sales.
> 
> It's only a fire sale if you reduce prices on an increasing basis to reduce inventory and are NOT producing new units to replenish stock... there has been no indication that Toshiba has stopped making HD DVD players... nor indication that HD DVDs are going to be stopped for those players.
> 
> Fact of the matter is, if Blu ray truly has "won", then folks like yourself wouldn't have to scramble to find articles and keep posting about how Blu ray has won. It would be obvious to everyone without need for declaration.
> 
> Simply put, right now HD DVD and Blu ray are both losing to DVD by a wide margin... so there's plenty of room for both formats until something changes in the marketplace. Meanwhile, I'll happily keep buying those new HD DVD movies that keep coming out each month!


How funny, was just reading an article before coming on here...seems Netflix CFO agrees with you:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/08/netflixs-cfo-on-hd-movies-rental-rates-and-the-future-of-discs/



> Netflix's CFO on HD movies rental rates and the future of discs
> 
> Posted Feb 8th 2008 7:19PM by Ben Drawbaugh
> Filed under: Blu-ray, HD DVD
> NetflixNetflix has revolutionized the movie rental business by using the good 'ol US Post Office to deliver millions of discs all around the country -- even if we have to wait a long time for some titles. But while many are predicting the end of packaged media, Netflix is seeing growth, but of course, like any good business Netflix is hedging it's bets, with its Watch Instantly feature. And according to Barry McCarthy, Netflix's CFO, those shiny discs aren't going anywhere, he said in San Francisco earlier this week, "If you really think people are going to stop renting DVDs, you need to lie down until that thought passes." Well then, but we wouldn't argue with him either, especially when you bring HD into the mix. As we've seen discussed online many times recently, HD downloads leave a lot left to be desired -- some content doesn't even seem it deserves the HD name -- and Netflix just makes it so easy. The other interesting tidbit is that when the format war is over, Netflix may raise its rate on HD movie rentals and while we don't want to pay more, we have to say we expected the increase all along.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> Everybody is spinning. I am getting dizzy there is so much spinning! Blu ray doesn't say "we are winning"... fans are saying that. Same goes for HD DVD. Companies don't need to declare themselves a winner, the market does that for them.
> 
> I could spin every BOGO sale on Blu ray discs as a "fire sale" if I wanted... otherwise why would they need to sell them at half price? If Blu ray was the clear "winner" then they shouldn't have to sell them at half price so often... but I choose not to declare such things as "fire sales" because I recognize them for what they are... marketing. Same thing for HD DVD sales.
> 
> It's only a fire sale if you reduce prices on an increasing basis to reduce inventory and are NOT producing new units to replenish stock... there has been no indication that Toshiba has stopped making HD DVD players... nor indication that HD DVDs are going to be stopped for those players.
> 
> Fact of the matter is, if Blu ray truly has "won", then folks like yourself wouldn't have to scramble to find articles and keep posting about how Blu ray has won. It would be obvious to everyone without need for declaration.
> 
> Simply put, right now HD DVD and Blu ray are both losing to DVD by a wide margin... so there's plenty of room for both formats until something changes in the marketplace. Meanwhile, I'll happily keep buying those new HD DVD movies that keep coming out each month!


Thats just it, I don't have to scramble, everywhere I look there they are, every news outlet, every website, every radio show, everywhere. Blu doesn't have to spin, the media is out there saying it, and saying it everywhere. To say otherwise is the spin. Accept that or not, its your world.


----------



## Cholly

ebaltz said:


> Thats just it, I don't have to scramble, everywhere I look there they are, every news outlet, every website, every radio show, everywhere. Blu doesn't have to spin, the media is out there saying it, and saying it everywhere. To say otherwise is the spin. Accept that or not, its your world.


When and if the day comes that all studios produce only Blu-ray, existing HD DVD's will not suddenly stop working. It is sheer folly to suggest that people dump their players and movies simply because no new ones are being produced.

The arguments between Blu-ray and HD DVD fans are senseless, as are the articles in the media predicting the imminent demise of HD DVD. To quote Yogi Berra, "It ain't over until it's over."

Please, people == get over it!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> Thats just it, I don't have to scramble, everywhere I look there they are, every news outlet, every website, every radio show, everywhere. Blu doesn't have to spin, the media is out there saying it, and saying it everywhere. To say otherwise is the spin. Accept that or not, its your world.


I see a lot of recycling in these "every outlet" conversations... someone takes one rumor from a forum somewhere, and re-quotes it on a dozen Web sites... which doesn't constitute anything but spreading a rumor.

The major news outlets are barely covering either Blu ray or HD DVD. If I didn't turn on my computer for a couple of days, I would hear nothing at all about HD DVD or Blu ray except for the rare commercial if I don't get to my skip fwd button fast enough on the DVR!

You have to search for these articles. They aren't on the main page of the main news outlets. The only place you find any HD DVD or Blu ray news besides a forum like this are on Blu ray and HD DVD dedicated sites. It just isn't mainstream enough to get major coverage by any means.

The fact that you are spinning yourself, saying it is "everywhere" is evidence in and of itself of the phenomenon.


----------



## dhhaines

ebaltz said:


> Thats just it, I don't have to scramble, everywhere I look there they are, every news outlet, every website, every radio show, everywhere. Blu doesn't have to spin, the media is out there saying it, and saying it everywhere. To say otherwise is the spin. Accept that or not, its your world.


 I'm not sure why it even matters one way or the other unless you're a MAJOR stockholder in Sony


----------



## machavez00

ebaltz said:


> And your private conversations with Microsoft reveal this?


You didn't get the memo?


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> I see a lot of recycling in these "every outlet" conversations... someone takes one rumor from a forum somewhere, and re-quotes it on a dozen Web sites... which doesn't constitute anything but spreading a rumor.
> 
> The major news outlets are barely covering either Blu ray or HD DVD. If I didn't turn on my computer for a couple of days, I would hear nothing at all about HD DVD or Blu ray except for the rare commercial if I don't get to my skip fwd button fast enough on the DVR!
> 
> You have to search for these articles. They aren't on the main page of the main news outlets. The only place you find any HD DVD or Blu ray news besides a forum like this are on Blu ray and HD DVD dedicated sites. It just isn't mainstream enough to get major coverage by any means.
> 
> The fact that you are spinning yourself, saying it is "everywhere" is evidence in and of itself of the phenomenon.


That's your opinion and perspective. Everywhere I go, physically or on the internet the talk is about HD DVD losing and losing big to Blu-ray. These articles have never once been "searched" for they are on sites all over the place relating to tech or just general news. So say what you want, its everywhere.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> That's your opinion and perspective. Everywhere I go, physically or on the internet the talk is about HD DVD losing and losing big to Blu-ray. These articles have never once been "searched" for they are on sites all over the place relating to tech or just general news. So say what you want, its everywhere.


wow...I just went to CNN.com, Foxnews.com, MSNBC.com.....and amazingly I didn't see a word about Blu Ray or HD DVD....shocker.

HDMe is right...it's not big news to the important people...and those people are the general consumer. I even looked in the Entertainment and Tech sections of each news page...not even mentioned in the top 15 results.

You know where you will find it....when you look for it...when you goto sites that talk about those things...I don't sit down at a wedding a or family outing, and BOOM it's the topic of choice...most people say, i'm just gonna wait until 1. Prices come down or 2. It's all settled...or 3. both

It's just not that important man...except to those of us who are interested in it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Fact is...the only thing you read consistently these days across numerous sites, publications, and media is that NEITHER format is making it big. 

HD DVD got the Warner slap in the face betrayal, and Blu Ray is about to slap all adopters in the face with their non-backward-compatible v1.1 standard in about 6 weeks from now.

Sales of both formats combined pale in comparison to standard DVDs, so unless something drastically changes.....neither format will make it in the long run.

Sony greed, studio greed and lack of foresight, lack of Blu Ray standards from the beginning, poor marketing for both types, improved SD upconversion hardware/players, and higher overall HD disk prices have all led to most of the mainstream market saying "I just don't see any real motivation to switch to another platform right now."


----------



## FogCutter

hdtvfan0001,

That's right. Sales are not good, and I think they would be if there was clarity in the market. I also think that a decent upconverting DVD player looks really good on many HD sets, taking the pressure off the need to upgrade, especially when that means upgrading into a format war.


----------



## ebaltz

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Fact is...the only thing you read consistently these days across numerous sites, publications, and media is that NEITHER format is making it big.
> 
> HD DVD got the Warner slap in the face betrayal, and Blu Ray is about to slap all adopters in the face with their non-backward-compatible v1.1 standard in about 6 weeks from now.
> 
> Sales of both formats combined pale in comparison to standard DVDs, so unless something drastically changes.....neither format will make it in the long run.
> 
> Sony greed, studio greed and lack of foresight, lack of Blu Ray standards from the beginning, poor marketing for both types, improved SD upconversion hardware/players, and higher overall HD disk prices have all led to most of the mainstream market saying "I just don't see any real motivation to switch to another platform right now."


Stop spreading the profile FUD. All Blu-ray discs will play in ALL Blu-ray players. The movies will play. Only some features may not be accessible.


----------



## ebaltz

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Fact is...the only thing you read consistently these days across numerous sites, publications, and media is that NEITHER format is making it big.
> 
> HD DVD got the Warner slap in the face betrayal, and Blu Ray is about to slap all adopters in the face with their non-backward-compatible v1.1 standard in about 6 weeks from now.
> 
> Sales of both formats combined pale in comparison to standard DVDs, so unless something drastically changes.....neither format will make it in the long run.
> 
> Sony greed, studio greed and lack of foresight, lack of Blu Ray standards from the beginning, poor marketing for both types, improved SD upconversion hardware/players, and higher overall HD disk prices have all led to most of the mainstream market saying "I just don't see any real motivation to switch to another platform right now."


Why isn't it Toshiba's greed? They were the greedy ones with DVD and now the rest of the industry doesn't want to let them do it again. Blu-ray isn't just Sony its many manufactures and studios. Stop spreading the FUD.


----------



## texaswolf

FogCutter said:


> hdtvfan0001,
> 
> That's right. Sales are not good, and I think they would be if there was clarity in the market. I also think that a decent upconverting DVD player looks really good on many HD sets, taking the pressure off the need to upgrade, especially when that means upgrading into a format war.


Clarity in the market, AND decent consumer prices...If blu wins and they want everyone to upgrade to HD...they will need to lower the prices to get more people on board.

Upconversions look decent on a HDTV...but make no mistake...they don't even come close to a HD DVD or Blu Ray version...sorry...it just doesn't


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Why isn't it Toshiba's greed? They were the greedy ones with DVD and now the rest of the industry doesn't want to let them do it again. Blu-ray isn't just Sony its many manufactures and studios. Stop spreading the FUD.


I don't really think it's FUD....what about the people who want the extras? I think thats what hd's point is...it may not be a big deal to some..or a lot....but there are people out there who believe they were buying the best or superior format, only to not be able to watch the extras they want. I think it is a valid argument/complaint.

Toshibas greedy because they lower their price to the point where most consumers can purchase and enjoy HD player/movie? Not sure I understand this one...


----------



## RAD

I don't know, but looking at the votes in http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=118695&highlight=extra 44% of the folks say they use none of the extras, and 17% say they use all extra's. The majority of the extra's usage was deleted sceens and commentary which will still work on all the current profile 1.0 players IIRC.


----------



## texaswolf

RAD said:


> I don't know, but looking at the votes in http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=118695&highlight=extra 44% of the folks say they use none of the extras, and 17% say they use all extra's. The majority of the extra's usage was deleted sceens and commentary which will still work on all the current profile 1.0 players IIRC.


see, now deleted scenes i like...especially on good funny movies... but i can understand that a lot may not.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

texaswolf said:


> see, now deleted scenes i like...especially on good funny movies... but i can understand that a lot may not.


Yeah, you should see the extras on "Who's Line Is It Anyways?", they are to die for!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> Stop spreading the profile FUD. All Blu-ray discs will play in ALL Blu-ray players. The movies will play. Only some features may not be accessible.


While I believe this will likely turn out to be true... you can't say it for a fact. Too much precedent says this can be a problem. Sony put some new copy protection on standard DVDs that actually caused playback problems in players, including Sony manufactured players. I have several movies I purchased on DVD that I have to workaround the initial lockup problem in order to get the movies to play on my older DVD player.

It is interesting to me that the same folks want to claim with 100% certainty that the PS3 is "futureproof" and that "1.1 or 2.0 movies will play in 1.0, just not the extras"... also want to claim that the Triple Layer 51GB discs that the HD DVD forum has been working on will not play in all HD DVD players.

Everywhere I look I see people on both sides spreading stuff that they have no business spreading as factual.. so there is a lot of the pot & kettle black-calling going on in my opinion.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> While I believe this will likely turn out to be true... you can't say it for a fact. Too much precedent says this can be a problem. Sony put some new copy protection on standard DVDs that actually caused playback problems in players, including Sony manufactured players. I have several movies I purchased on DVD that I have to workaround the initial lockup problem in order to get the movies to play on my older DVD player.
> 
> It is interesting to me that the same folks want to claim with 100% certainty that the PS3 is "futureproof" and that "1.1 or 2.0 movies will play in 1.0, just not the extras"... also want to claim that the Triple Layer 51GB discs that the HD DVD forum has been working on will not play in all HD DVD players.
> 
> Everywhere I look I see people on both sides spreading stuff that they have no business spreading as factual.. so there is a lot of the pot & kettle black-calling going on in my opinion.


+1


----------



## GrumpyBear

ebaltz said:


> Why isn't it Toshiba's greed? They were the greedy ones with DVD and now the rest of the industry doesn't want to let them do it again. Blu-ray isn't just Sony its many manufactures and studios. Stop spreading the FUD.


Well 
1. Toshiba and Sony fought over vhs vs beta, had nothing to do with DVD, wont go into history lesson and Sony and its court battles.

2. Blu-Ray is Sony, several companies on the Board, and other manufacuters, but ONLY SONY, makes the pretty blue light.

3. When you read the entire statement from Warner, one of the keys to moving over was BD finally supporting PiP features. One of the main delays for Profile 1.1 realease was the very fact that Sony's entire line, to include the PS3, could NOT make PiP and other advance features work. Companies had to come up with creative work arounds. http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/543

4. Pointing out that Profile 1.0 is really called GRACE Period, and that none of BD are upgradable to newer Profiles, isn't FUD, its just pointing out that they limited, yes they play Blu-Ray movies, its just all the new features that wont work. Blu-Ray has always talked about BD-Java and all the great features and upgradablity of it, you can't upgrade hardware that doesn't exist, big dead end. 
HD-DVD players they play all HD Movies out there and will always be able to them, even when movie companies stop making them.
Grace Period BD players will play Blu-Ray movies, just no Features, how long will Grace Period be covered with updates, with 1.1 and newer players coming out, that have the features the Studio's wont? Using the term Grace period, does not lead on to believe support is Long term.

5. Movie companies find these features important, cause the MASS audience's aren't buying into, either BD or HD, more than 70% of American's see NO reason to upgrade at all. Only way to cure this is features you can't just get with standard DVD rather upconverted or standard. Granted no BD movies have come out with Profile 1.1, as there are still some problems with it, but release dates have been put out, $50+, for a movie you can't even watch all the features of.


----------



## machavez00

JVC was behind VHS


----------



## GrumpyBear

machavez00 said:


> JVC was behind VHS


Correct, JVC was VHS, and Toshiba DVD.
Note to self, never post after all day of enjoying an all day Rugby fest.
So no posting from me tomorrow, as the Super7's end, and I have more Mississippi Mud to finish off.
3 format war's, for our Video entertainment, looks like Sony will have enough on Board to win 1 out of 3.
I just hope they make more of those blue lights, I want my 8tb drive.


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> Toshibas greedy because they lower their price to the point where most consumers can purchase and enjoy HD player/movie? Not sure I understand this one...


IMO both camps share the blame for not being able to come to reach a compromise and develop a single format thereby avoiding another war and enabling faster adoption rates.


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Fact is...the only thing you read consistently these days across numerous sites, publications, and media is that NEITHER format is making it big.
> 
> HD DVD got the Warner slap in the face betrayal, and Blu Ray is about to slap all adopters in the face with their non-backward-compatible v1.1 standard in about 6 weeks from now.
> 
> Sales of both formats combined pale in comparison to standard DVDs, so unless something drastically changes.....neither format will make it in the long run.
> 
> Sony greed, studio greed and lack of foresight, lack of Blu Ray standards from the beginning, poor marketing for both types, improved SD upconversion hardware/players, and higher overall HD disk prices have all led to most of the mainstream market saying "I just don't see any real motivation to switch to another platform right now."


Actually the most recent data shows HDM ahead of the sales curve of DVDs at the same point in the sales cycle. Has everyone forgotten how long it took the industry to release movies on DVD, they weren't exactly cranking out the hits for a long time back then either. I'm not so sure that either one is really going to take over the market but I also don't think the outlook is as dim as some make it out to be.

The "Sony greed" thing sounds ridiculous to me, they are trying to make money - the same thing every company does, go figure. The same goes for the arguments about copy protection: while I disagree with many of the tactics that are employed and think that consumers should have freedom with what they've paid for, the fact is that in China and Asia in general pirating of copyrighted / trademark product is simply out of control. The studios are getting robbed of a lot of money, as long as that continues they will continue to search for ways to stop it, if you were running that business it would be a priority of yours too, the same goes for the shareholders.


----------



## machavez00

Full article:http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9864122-1.html


> With HD DVD looking more and more like it's on the ropes, it would seem like the ideal time to commit to Blu-ray--right? Not so fast. There are at least five reasons to stick with your good old-fashioned DVD player--at least for the next few months. (And, as always, there are some key caveats and insider secrets for those who can't resist pullling the trigger as soon as possible.)
> 
> 1. Nearly all current Blu-ray players are obsolete: The Blu-ray standard is still evolving. Most models currently available use the original Profile 1.0 standard, while some newer models use Profile 1.1 (which adds the ability to show picture-in-picture commentaries). Later this year, the first Profile 2.0 players--which add the ability to deliver online special features (BD Live)--will become available. Ironically, both of these are designed to bring the Blu-ray standard in line with HD DVD players, which have long been able to deliver *these features*.


----------



## machavez00

counerpoint
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...c-makes-ps3-the-most-future-proof-player.html


> With the sudden and unexpected announcement from Warner that the studio would be abandoning HD DVD titles in favor of Blu-ray, it seemed to many observers that the high-def format war was all over, bar the shouting.
> 
> With the upcoming 2.0 player profile requiring Blu-ray players to be networked, Sony finally gets to play its trump card: the PlayStation 3, which has clearly emerged as one of the best Blu-ray players on the market-and is likely to remain so for some time. Why? Because the first player now becomes the most versatile, sporting a future-proof Blu-ray setup.


end of article


> While HD DVD may have done a better job of future-proofing their players, the immaturity of the Blu-ray spec hasn't proven to be an insurmountable obstacle. At CES, the Blu-ray Disc Association announced that 3.5 million Blu-ray players had been sold to date. Of those, 3 million were PlayStation 3s, the most future-proof Blu-ray player on the market. Still, this means that roughly 15 percent of the early adopters are going to be frozen out of the latest and greatest Blu-ray features with BD-Live. That's bad news for current owners of stand-alone players, but with the price of the PlayStation 3 now down to $399.99 and the format wars shaping up nicely in Blu-ray's favor, the system may actually be less expensive and more powerful than the latest-generation standalone players.
> 
> This is quite the odd turn of events: it was assumed when the PS3 launched that the gaming system would be the Trojan horse that brought Blu-ray into the homes of the mass market. Now? The inexpensive and future-proofed Blu-ray functions of the PS3, matched with the high-quality upscaling the system brings to normal DVDs, may be the Trojan horse bringing gaming to home theater enthusiasts.


Which is why I will most likley buy a PS3. That and it a lot easier to tell my wife I am buy a game console than another HD player!


----------



## emathis

You have to hand it to Sony. What a brillant move. No matter how much money changed hands with Warner Bros., they knew they would make it all back eventually when all the early adopters of Blu-ray, stuck with a non-upgradable player, that can't bitstream high-end audio or not display PIP or not have an ethernet connection, upgrade to a new player, just to get the functionality that all HD-DVD players had from day one.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

emathis said:


> You have to hand it to Sony. What a brillant move. No matter how much money changed hands with Warner Bros., they knew they would make it all back eventually when all the early adopters of Blu-ray, stuck with a non-upgradable player, that can't bitstream high-end audio or not display PIP or not have an ethernet connection, upgrade to a new player, just to get the functionality that all HD-DVD players had from day one.


There is no money in the players. Only the mail box money they get from the sales of Blu-Ray movies.


----------



## bobukcat

AlbertZeroK said:


> There is no money in the players. Only the mail box money they get from the sales of Blu-Ray movies.


Really, if the rumours about the amount of money that Warner received for the switch are true the relatively measly number of BD players that have been sold that are incompatible with future special features being replaced (assuming the owners care enough about them to upgrade to a 2.0 player) can't offset the payout.


----------



## FogCutter

texaswolf said:


> Upconversions look decent on a HDTV...but make no mistake...they don't even come close to a HD DVD or Blu Ray version...sorry...it just doesn't


Oh sure, I agree, but I have many old DVDs that upconvert well enough to keep me from buying new HD renderings. When buying a new DVD, I only get the HD version.

I recently went from a non upconverting DVD player to a Toshiba, and the old disks really look great now. That's where I am coming from.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> While I believe this will likely turn out to be true... you can't say it for a fact. Too much precedent says this can be a problem. Sony put some new copy protection on standard DVDs that actually caused playback problems in players, including Sony manufactured players. I have several movies I purchased on DVD that I have to workaround the initial lockup problem in order to get the movies to play on my older DVD player.
> 
> It is interesting to me that the same folks want to claim with 100% certainty that the PS3 is "futureproof" and that "1.1 or 2.0 movies will play in 1.0, just not the extras"... also want to claim that the Triple Layer 51GB discs that the HD DVD forum has been working on will not play in all HD DVD players.
> 
> Everywhere I look I see people on both sides spreading stuff that they have no business spreading as factual.. so there is a lot of the pot & kettle black-calling going on in my opinion.


The 51GB HD DVD is a pipe dream. Won't ever happen, by the time they figure out how to get it to work the format will be completly dead and without support. Meanwhile the 50GB Blu-ray has been out for sometime and I am already burning them at home.


----------



## elaclair

HDMe said:


> It is interesting to me that the same folks want to claim with 100% certainty that the PS3 is "futureproof" and that "1.1 or 2.0 movies will play in 1.0, just not the extras"... also want to claim that the Triple Layer 51GB discs that the HD DVD forum has been working on will not play in all HD DVD players.


Actually this came from Toshiba, though it's been spun to the point of non-belief. The first-gen players do not contain the hardware required to properly read the TL51, but that doesn't mean a firmware upgrade can't make them usable. The last legitimate article (and I only call it legitimate because the source has generally been on the up and up) is that the A1 PROBABLY won't work with the TL51, the other 1st-gen MAY work with the TL51, and the 2nd and 3rd gen probably WILL work with the TL51.

Of course none of this can be verified until they actually produce a TL51 disc for consumer use.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> The 51GB HD DVD is a pipe dream. Won't ever happen, by the time they figure out how to get it to work the format will be completly dead and without support. Meanwhile the 50GB Blu-ray has been out for sometime and I am already burning them at home.


You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about... you have no basis to make this claim any moreso than other claims you make regarding Blu ray. There is no way that any of us can actually know of the 51GB HD DVD will work unless and until it comes out... Same goes for the BD-Live features and new Blu ray movies on older Blu ray players.

I find it beyond amusing how you will state 100% everything on Blu ray will work perfectly, and then 100% everything on HD DVD will not... when the simple truth is that we do not know about either.

Honestly, I tend to ignore most of what comes out of Blu ray AND HD DVD rumor-mills because there is so much willingness to make up stuff and spin things out of control... and you are not helping your own cause here.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about... you have no basis to make this claim any moreso than other claims you make regarding Blu ray. There is no way that any of us can actually know of the 51GB HD DVD will work unless and until it comes out... Same goes for the BD-Live features and new Blu ray movies on older Blu ray players.
> 
> I find it beyond amusing how you will state 100% everything on Blu ray will work perfectly, and then 100% everything on HD DVD will not... when the simple truth is that we do not know about either.
> 
> Honestly, I tend to ignore most of what comes out of Blu ray AND HD DVD rumor-mills because there is so much willingness to make up stuff and spin things out of control... and you are not helping your own cause here.


Okay then lets stick to the facts. Blu-ray has produced a 50GB disc that is working and being used, both for studio recordings and for in home burners. HD DVD has NOT produced anything even approaching that amount yet. And while they may, may, have a 51GB disc in the future (if there is one, a future that is for the format) by that time Blu-ray will probably be cranking out 100-200GB discs. Time will tell on that, yet, but right now, there is no comparison in storage capacity.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> The 51GB HD DVD is a pipe dream. Won't ever happen, by the time they figure out how to get it to work the format will be completly dead and without support. Meanwhile the 50GB Blu-ray has been out for sometime and I am already burning them at home.


Disney voted for HD DVD to have the 51GB disc....maybe they don't know what they are talking about?

You are burning 50gb BR disc at home? Now you wouldn't be violating Sonys beloved DRM law by burning movies..would you? Or do you just have an unusual amount of data you are storing on a $40-$50 disc?


----------



## elaclair

texaswolf said:


> Disney voted for HD DVD to have the 51GB disc....maybe they don't know what they are talking about?


Why does everyone make such a big deal about Disney sitting on the standards committee? (Not picking on you texaswolf...the media in general seemed to glom on to that little tidbit). The only reason they would NOT approve the spec. is if it were flawed in some fashion. And approving the spec. is just that, it has nothing to do with format competition, movie revenue, or the outcome of the format war.


----------



## ShawnL25

Netflix has gone bluray exclusive. This just keeps getting uglier for HD DVD


----------



## ibglowin

Source?


----------



## ShawnL25

ibglowin said:


> Source?


http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/11/netflix-picks-blu-ray-good-luck-renting-an-hd-dvd-soon/


----------



## ibglowin

Sure hope somehow this will improve my odds of actually renting something in HD from them. I have been waiting on Bourne Ultimateum in HD since it came out months ago. Finally gave up yesterday and picked it up for $15 from Best Buy with the BOGO sale.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

I wonder what NetFlix is going to do with all their HD DVD?


----------



## Jason Nipp

ebaltz said:


> Why isn't it Toshiba's greed? They were the greedy ones with DVD and now the rest of the industry doesn't want to let them do it again. Blu-ray isn't just Sony its many manufactures and studios. Stop spreading the FUD.


Last I check Sony was not the only company producing Blu Ray players. Your right there ebaltz.


hdtvfan0001 said:


> HD DVD got the Warner slap in the face betrayal, and Blu Ray is about to slap all adopters in the face with their non-backward-compatible v1.1 standard in about 6 weeks from now.
> 
> Sony greed, studio greed and lack of foresight, lack of Blu Ray standards from the beginning, poor marketing for both types, improved SD upconversion hardware/players, and higher overall HD disk prices have all led to most of the mainstream market saying "I just don't see any real motivation to switch to another platform right now."


HDTV you need to stop adding to the gossip rumors that others have talked about. You keep waiving the profile thing around like it will render old players useless, and that's not true and you know it. You can debate, but debate honestly and stop contributing to misleading people. Greed, I'll say it again, both sides need to make a profit, do not believe for a minute that Toshiba's reasons are charitable.


----------



## ebaltz

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSWEN388420080211


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Disney voted for HD DVD to have the 51GB disc....maybe they don't know what they are talking about?
> 
> You are burning 50gb BR disc at home? Now you wouldn't be violating Sonys beloved DRM law by burning movies..would you? Or do you just have an unusual amount of data you are storing on a $40-$50 disc?


Is this all you do? Trying to pry into what I do and what I own? Try keeping the discussion about how HD DVD is losing big time.

Maybe I have home movies I love putting on that beautiful large format media available only on Blu-ray. Why don't you trying thinking before posting.


----------



## ebaltz

C'mon now you HD DVD fans, try spinning that Netflix decision as a positive. You're so good at it. Um lets see, it means that Netflix is only going Blu-ray to make sure that both formats die and so that it can focus on downloads. Or, maybe Sony paid them off 2 trillion dollars. Or maybe...well have at it.


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> I don't really think it's FUD....what about the people who want the extras?


 PiP and Internet connectivity where never features offered to the early adopter BD people. It was decided to add it later after they saw the positives discussed on the competitors camp.

No early adopter lost anything! The features were non existent and were never promised when I bought my unit. So they added some new stuff in March of 08, oh well, I guess I'll get over it considering I don't care about PiP or net connectivity anyhow.

You guys keep amplifying us early adopters about getting gypped... Well then I guess I'll rub it in that you were gypped with you lack of DLB on your HR receiver.... Making mountains out of ant hills.... anything to make your choice the right and only choice.

So what about us that chose both? What kind of smack can be said for us neutrals? Are we chicken for not taking a chance on one side or the other? Or are we traitors for both camps? You guys need to chill out.


----------



## Nick

This is getting ugly -- ones' HD player format preference isn't religion or politics, people. 

Can't we all just get along...? :shrug:


----------



## ebaltz

http://netflix.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=265

Let me point out a few of the key phrases from the press release:

*With the industry now having picked a winner in the face-off between the two competing high- definition DVD formats...*​

*But the company said that in recent months the industry has stated its clear preference for Blu-ray*​
*Going forward, we expect that all of the studios will publish in the Blu-ray format​*
*
the company said it will acquire no new HD DVDs​*


----------



## Stuart Sweet

AlbertZeroK said:


> I wonder what NetFlix is going to do with all their HD DVD?


Well if someone finds out, let me know. I'll buy some.


----------



## dhhaines

Nick said:


> This is getting ugly -- ones' HD player format preference isn't religion or politics, people.
> 
> Can't we all just get along...? :shrug:


 +1

I'm trying to figure out why people on here have to trash someone elses preference in media format. :nono2:


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well if someone finds out, let me know. I'll buy some.


That's a good question just in general. What DOES NetFlix do with any of the DVD's they decide to "phase out"? Do they do what Wherehouse used to do? Have a rack of used rental DVDs for sale at a discount?

Seems like it might be a good way to flesh out your library with some of those titles you wouldn't pay retail for, but would pick up if the price were right......


----------



## machavez00

Nick said:


> This is getting ugly -- ones' HD player format preference isn't religion or politics, people.
> 
> Can't we all just get along...? :shrug:





dhhaines said:


> +1
> 
> I'm trying to figure out why people on here have to trash someone elses preference in media format. :nono2:


I know. That is just as bad as say, attacking someone for the poor choice of subscribing to Dish Network. :grin:


----------



## Nick

:thats: That's funny, Michael. :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jason makes some mighty fine points. People who buy ANYTHING today will be able to play that anything for some time. Sure, there might have been more cost effective choices--that's called waiting and not being an early adopter.

Normally I would have been first on the block and I know what happens when I am.  But I would have had tons of fun and enjoyment, then add two or three other players when the feature sets shook out. Moving the original player into the one of other rooms where I have TVs. 

This is a stupid war between manufacturers, we don't need to carry it into the fellowship we have here.

To the HD owners, may your players and discs play for a long time giving you plenty of coolness.

To the BD owners, may your players and discs play for a long time giving you plenty of coolness.

To the manufacturers, get on with it. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## dhhaines

machavez00 said:


> I know. That is just as bad as say, attacking someone for the poor choice of subscribing to Dish Network. :grin:


 Now that's just not right...:grin: Funny.but not right.


----------



## jutley

Tom Robertson said:


> ...
> This is a stupid war between manufacturers, we don't need to carry it into the fellowship we have here.
> 
> To the HD owners, may your players and discs play for a long time giving you plenty of coolness.
> 
> To the BD owners, may your players and discs play for a long time giving you plenty of coolness.
> 
> To the manufacturers, get on with it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Amen


----------



## mridan

No news is good news for HD DVD

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=947


----------



## crabtrp

mridan said:


> No news is good news for HD DVD
> 
> http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=947


Does Blockbuster still carry both on-line (I know they never had HD DVD in store)?

If they do the bye bye Netflix, I have both formats so I can watch all available movies, I do not want to be restricted.


----------



## BudShark

crabtrp said:


> Does Blockbuster still carry both on-line (I know they never had HD DVD in store)?
> 
> If they do the bye bye Netflix, I have both formats so I can watch all available movies, I do not want to be restricted.


BB currently carries both. However, holding out hope and switching vendors is a short term prospect. It is likely that BB will go Blu within the next 6-8 weeks.

Netflix likely made their decision based on inside briefings on Paramount and other studios plans, and/or they looked at the release calendar for post-May and realized there wouldn't be much to keep HD-DVD alive comparatively.

The point is any shifting of allegiances, particularly in rental, will only buy you a couple months at this point - if that. Since BB has already gone Blu in store, well... tick tock tick tock for online rental of HD-DVD.

Chris


----------



## Tom Robertson

From Netflix's standpoint, this must have been a huge decision. They are basically closing a whole segment of users off and they know it. Ouch! There are still discs coming, there are still discs available, there are users. So to shut them out, speaks painful volumes, it seems.

My own hope had been the studios and manufacturers switched first, not the rental and sales outlets. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## BudShark

The Netflix move is particularly unexpected and surprising. It has significant meaning for the industry either on a next-gen DVD front, or in the rental front. To me, it means 1 of 2 things:

1) The only significant movie buff rental property that prided itself on catering to the consumer and having the most product available has changed and is now for sale to the studio with the most $$$ (ala, this move was paid for by Blu-Ray)

or

2) It means nothing in terms of Netflix as a company/service provider and rather tells us in no uncertain terms the format war is over and the final cease-fire documents are being put in place and HD-DVD will be dead by summer.

I'm guessing its number 2 - what we are watching is literally a fire sale unfolding and Toshiba does not realistically expect to turn this around and is simply unloading as much as they can, as fast as they can, before the obituary is written and they take the financial loss.

Chris


----------



## mridan

HD DVD player returns out number new stock.

http://www.hollywoodinhighdef.com/blog_detail.php?id=170


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Is this all you do? Trying to pry into what I do and what I own? Try keeping the discussion about how HD DVD is losing big time.
> 
> Maybe I have home movies I love putting on that beautiful large format media available only on Blu-ray. Why don't you trying thinking before posting.


Nah, you had just posted that you were already "burning" them at home....i know some who have paid the $40-$50 a disc, but they were burning movies they rented...and money isn't really an option for them..so they could afford that much per disc, and the higher end BR players.

I'm not looking into everything you do...you posted what you do to everyone here, so i asked a question...and i know you are a BR supporter...so i didn't think you would be going against something they hold so important...thats...no worries


----------



## ebaltz

BudShark said:


> BB currently carries both. However, holding out hope and switching vendors is a short term prospect. It is likely that BB will go Blu within the next 6-8 weeks.
> 
> Netflix likely made their decision based on inside briefings on Paramount and other studios plans, and/or they looked at the release calendar for post-May and realized there wouldn't be much to keep HD-DVD alive comparatively.
> 
> The point is any shifting of allegiances, particularly in rental, will only buy you a couple months at this point - if that. Since BB has already gone Blu in store, well... tick tock tick tock for online rental of HD-DVD.
> 
> Chris


Blockbuster is basically gone that direction anyway, only renting HD DVD in less than 250 of its original test stores and online, so that was a sign as to the direction they are going. Look for that decision to be even more definite. The reason sited originally was that rentals were 70-30 or better in favor of Blu.


----------



## BudShark

mridan said:


> HD DVD player returns out number new stock.
> 
> http://www.hollywoodinhighdef.com/blog_detail.php?id=170


In all fairness - a broadcasted Blu-Ray pimp site that speaks of "unnamed" sources "telling them" that there are more returns than new stock doesn't exactly equal news or fact...

Chris


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> PiP and Internet connectivity where never features offered to the early adopter BD people. It was decided to add it later after they saw the positives discussed on the competitors camp.
> 
> No early adopter lost anything! The features were non existent and were never promised when I bought my unit. So they added some new stuff in March of 08, oh well, I guess I'll get over it considering I don't care about PiP or net connectivity anyhow.
> 
> You guys keep amplifying us early adopters about getting gypped... Well then I guess I'll rub it in that you were gypped with you lack of DLB on your HR receiver.... Making mountains out of ant hills.... anything to make your choice the right and only choice.
> 
> So what about us that chose both? What kind of smack can be said for us neutrals? Are we chicken for not taking a chance on one side or the other? Or are we traitors for both camps? You guys need to chill out.


whats this you guys and us stuff? check my sig...i have both formats. If people don't care that they cant watch extras...cool...no biggie...I was just saying for those that do like them and cant...it sucks...do i think it's a huge thing...nah.



> ebaltz: C'mon now you HD DVD fans, try spinning that Netflix decision as a positive. You're so good at it. Um lets see, it means that Netflix is only going Blu-ray to make sure that both formats die and so that it can focus on downloads. Or, maybe Sony paid them off 2 trillion dollars. Or maybe...well have at it.


There is no need on this thread to antagonize people into an argument...nor is there a need for fans of either side to log in and bash either format or it's supporters...anyone doing so does not need to join in on the conversation.

That being said...i am actually suprised at Netflix...considering when BB claimed to go blu...Netflix said that they were still getting renters on both formats evenly...interesting that they did not mention rental numbers with this announcement. However they did say by the end of the year...so who knows what could happen there...a lot has happened in the last 6 months alone. If they do stay with this announcement, it's a big blow for HD DVD, and as I said before...the red camp needs to get on the ball.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Blockbuster is basically gone that direction anyway, only renting HD DVD in less than 250 of its original test stores and online, so that was a sign as to the direction they are going. Look for that decision to be even more definite. The reason sited originally was that rentals were 70-30 or better in favor of Blu.


yeah, thats what the weird thing there was...with Netflix (at the time) saying they had pretty even rental numbers, and BB saying the 70-30 in favor of blu...you wouldn't think that there would be that big of a difference between rental companies....one of them had messed up numbers somewhere.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I think the color of Best Buy's logo was turning off HD-DVD customers... :lol:

(Just kidding, of course!)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Mike728

Tom Robertson said:


> I think the color of Best Buy's logo was turning off HD-DVD customers... :lol:
> 
> (Just kidding, of course!)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You're confused like I was. BB = Blockbuster in this thread. :grin:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

One thing I'll say for sure, the whole thing has made me buy fewer movies of any type. I'm doing a lot more PPV. Sure I miss out on the features but I don't want to add any more weight to my boat anchor.


----------



## dhhaines

Stuart Sweet said:


> One thing I'll say for sure, the whole thing has made me buy fewer movies of any type. I'm doing a lot more PPV. Sure I miss out on the features but I don't want to add any more weight to my boat anchor.


 I don't know about you, but at this point I have so many boat anchors in my basement they would sink the boat! :eek2:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

My point exactly. The older I get, the fewer I want.


----------



## machavez00

full article: No Winners in the High-Def DVD War? : Christopher Null : Yahoo! Tech



> The Economist brings us a sobering look at the high-definition DVD market this week, asking whether HD's got another year of nasty fighting ahead of it, and if Blu-ray's impending victory in the high-def war will even amount to anything, anyway.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mike728 said:


> You're confused like I was. BB = Blockbuster in this thread. :grin:


You're right...But wait, both BB's have a blue logo...


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> whats this you guys and us stuff? check my sig...i have both formats. If people don't care that they cant watch extras...cool...no biggie...I was just saying for those that do like them and cant...it sucks...do i think it's a huge thing...nah.


 HDTVFan seems to think it's a huge thing, and that is who was intending to quote in the post of mine that you quoted.


----------



## bobukcat

elaclair said:


> That's a good question just in general. What DOES NetFlix do with any of the DVD's they decide to "phase out"? Do they do what Wherehouse used to do? Have a rack of used rental DVDs for sale at a discount?
> 
> Seems like it might be a good way to flesh out your library with some of those titles you wouldn't pay retail for, but would pick up if the price were right......


They sell them to the renters (what they do with ones they can't sell, I have no idea), if you rent a movie and rate it 4 or 5 stars they send you an e-mail asking if you want to buy a copy of it, usually at a disounted rate, the same as in a BlBu store.

I was really shocked at this announcment and expected Nflix to continue renting both formats until the end. Maybe they noticed there are no real big red releases coming up and decided to make the announcement and see if anyone cares??? :grin:

P.S. I propose we begin using BlBu=Blockbuster and leave BB as Best Buy to avoid confusion.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Fair enough on the abbreviations... I may now actually have a reason to join Netflix if it means I can get HD DVDs at a discount.


----------



## chrpai

Hmmmm....

I bought an HD DVD because it was cheap. I've not bought a Blue Ray yet. Unless I buy one, there really isn't any reason for me to stay with NetFlix. RedBox is far cheaper.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

I know there was some talk about Netflix dropping HD DVD movies earlier today. Here is a email I just received from them about it.



> We're Going Blu-ray
> 
> Dear Michael,
> 
> You're receiving this email because you have asked to receive high-definition movies in the HD DVD format. As you may have heard, most of the major movie studios have recently decided to release their high-definition movies exclusively in the Blu-ray format. In order to provide the best selection of high-definition titles for our members, we have decided to go exclusively with Blu-ray as well.
> 
> While we will continue to make our current selection of HD DVD titles available to you for the next several months, we will not be adding additional HD DVD titles or reordering replacements.
> 
> Toward the end of February, HD DVDs in your Saved Queue will automatically be changed to standard definition DVDs. Then toward the end of this year, all HD DVDs in your Queue will be changed to standard definition DVDs. Don't worry, we will contact you before this happens.
> 
> You can click here to change your format preferences.
> 
> We're sorry for any inconvenience. If you have any questions or need further assistance, please call us at 1 (888) 638-3549.
> 
> -The Netflix Team


----------



## ebaltz

Another death knell...Best Buy to recommend Blu-ray...

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSWNAS040320080211

The beat just keeps on going. HD DVD loses support from a company or retailer or whatever almost every day now. Sometimes, like today, even two a day.


----------



## Jason Nipp

But it says recommends, not dropped.


----------



## Chuck W

From the rootkit debacle on their audio CD's, to their proposed upscaling preventative measures, on their upcoming SD DVD's, having Sony in control of ANY technology is a scary thought and one I am NOT looking forward to, in the least. 

Be careful what you wish for Blu-Ray diehards, you just might get it.


----------



## DCSholtis

And now the fun begins:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/new...sung_Sued_Over_Defective_Blu-ray_Players/1450



> Samsung Sued Over "Defective" Blu-ray Players
> Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:00 AM ET
> 
> An early adopter is taking on Samsung, filing a class action lawsuit against the electronics manufacturer over compatibility issues with its BDP-1200 and certain Blu-ray discs.
> 
> According to court papers filed late last week, Connecticut resident Bob McGovern is suing Samsung on behalf of "thousands, and perhaps tens of thousands" of consumers who purchased Samsung's 1200 Blu-ray player, only to later find the player incompatible with "numerous Blu-ray disc titles."
> 
> ...


Edit: (Tom Robertson) Trimmed the amount of quoted material to protect the original copyrights. Please read more at the link supplied above.


----------



## Jason Nipp

DCSholtis said:


> And now the fun begins:
> 
> http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/new...sung_Sued_Over_Defective_Blu-ray_Players/1450


DC, Please note this is one specific model player, and it's not a Sony manufactured unit.

So far with the harware issues I have heard about two of the Samsung players and the LG unit.


----------



## ebaltz

Jason Nipp said:


> But it says recommends, not dropped.


Yep, so HD DVD fans can call it yet another victory, since these are the only kind of ones they have had in months, "Well at least its not as bad as it could have been" :lol: :lol:

Its so entertaining.


----------



## ebaltz

Chuck W said:


> From the rootkit debacle on their audio CD's, to their proposed upscaling preventative measures, on their upcoming SD DVD's, having Sony in control of ANY technology is a scary thought and one I am NOT looking forward to, in the least.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for Blu-Ray diehards, you just might get it.


Sony is not Blu-ray. Here is the list of the BDA, responsible for Blu-ray:

Board of Directors
Apple, Inc.
Dell
HP
Hitachi
LG
Mitsubishi Electric
Panasonic
Pioneer
Philips
Samsung
Sharp
Sony
Sun Microsystems
TDK
Thomson
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney
Warner Bros.

Contributors

Acer Incorporated

Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.

Almedio Inc.
Alticast
Aplix Corporation
ArcSoft, Inc.
AudioDev AB
Broadcom Corporation
Canon Inc.

China Hualu Group Co., Ltd.
CMC Magnetics Corporation
Corel Corporation
Cryptography Research Inc.
CyberLink Corp.
DATARIUS Technologies GmbH
Daxon Technology Inc.
D-Box Technologies Inc.
DCA Inc.
Deluxe Media Services Inc.
Dolby Laboratories Inc.

Dreamer Co., Ltd.
DTS, Inc.

Eclipse Data Technologies
Esmertec

FUJIFILM Corporation
Fujitsu Ltd.

Funai Electric Co., Ltd.
Gibson Guitar Corp.
Kenwood Corporation

Lenovo
Lionsgate Entertainment
LITE-ON IT Corporation

Macrovision Corp.

Magnum Semiconductor, Inc.
MediaTek Inc.
Meridian Audio Ltd.
Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co.Ltd.
Mitsui Chemicals Inc.

Monster Cable Products
Moser Baer India Limited
NEC Electronics Corporation
Nero

Osmosys SA
Pixela Corporation
Prodisc Technology Inc.
Pulstec Industrial Co., Ltd.
Ricoh Co., Ltd.
Ritek Corporation
ShibaSoku Co. Ltd.
Sigma Designs Inc.

Silicon Integrated Systems Corporation
Sonic Solutions
Sony BMG Music Entertainment
ST Microelectronics
Sunext
Taiyo Yuden Co., Ltd.,
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.
Visionare Corporation
Zentek Technology Japan, Inc.
ZOOtech Ltd.
Zoran Corporation

General Members

Adobe Systems

Allion Test Labs, Inc.

Alpine Electronics Inc.
Arima Devices Corporation
ashampoo GmbH & Co. KG

ASV Corp.

Avid Development GmbH
BASF AG
B.H.A. Corporation

BluFocus Inc.
Bose Corporation

Brickbox Digital Media
B&W Group
The Cannery
Cheertek Inc.
Cinram Manufacturing Inc.
CustomFlix Labs, Inc.

Custom Technology Inc.
D&M holdings, Inc.
Daewoo Electronics Corporation
Daikin Industries, Ltd.
Elpida Memory, Inc.
Expert Magnetics Corp.

Falcon Technologies International
Fujitsu Ten Ltd.
GalleryPlayer Media Networks
Gear Software

Global Machinery Co., Ltd.

Gowell Electronic Limited
Hie Electronics, Inc.
Hoei Sangyo Co., Ltd

Horizon Semiconductor.
IMAGICA Corp.

Imation Corp.
INFODISC Technology Co., Ltd.
Infomedia Inc.

Info Source Multi Media Ltd.
Intersil Corporation
Iwatsu Test Instruments

Kobe Steel Co. Ltd.
Konica Minolta Opto Inc.
Lauda Co. Ltd.
Lead Data Inc.
LEADER ELECTRONICS CORP
LINTEC Corporation
MainConcept AG
Mitsumi Electric Co., Ltd.

MIT Technology Co., Ltd.

MoSys Incorporated
Must Technology Co., Ltd.
MX Production Services

NEC Personal Products Ltd.
Netflix Inc.
Newtech Infosystems Inc.
NexWave Solutions

NHK Technical Services, Inc.
Nichia Corporation
Nikkatsu Corporation
NTT Electronics Corporation
nVidia Corporation
OC Oerlikon Balzer AG
Omnibus Japan Inc.
Onkyo Corporation
Online Media Technologies Ltd.
Ono Sokki Co., Ltd.
OPT Corporation

Optodisc Technology Corporation
Origin Electric Co., Ltd.
Pico House

Plannet Associates
PoINT Software & Systems GmbH
Pony Canyon Enterprise
Primera Technology, Inc.
Q-TEC, Inc.

Quantized Systems
Quanta Storage Inc.

Realtek Semiconductors
Rimage Corporation
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.
Dr. Schwab Inspection Technology GmbH
Singulus Technologies

Targray Technology International Inc.
TEAC Corporation
Teijin Chemicals Ltd.

Texas Instruments, Inc.
THX Ltd.
Toei Video Company Ltd.
Toho Company, Ltd.
Toppan Printing Co., Ltd.
TOPTICA Photonics AG
Trailer Park
UmeDisc Ltd.

Universal Music Group, Inc.

VideACE Inc.
Yamaha Corporation
Yokogawa Electric Corporation
1K Studios, LLC


----------



## BudShark

ebaltz gets the Ribbon for "longest" horizontal post in this thread!


----------



## ebaltz

chrpai said:


> Hmmmm....
> 
> I bought an HD DVD because it was cheap. I've not bought a Blue Ray yet. Unless I buy one, there really isn't any reason for me to stay with NetFlix. RedBox is far cheaper.


I'll never understand the philosophy of people who buy $3000 HDTVs and then decide they can't spend over $100 for a hi-def video player.


----------



## ebaltz

BudShark said:


> ebaltz gets the Ribbon for "longest" horizontal post in this thread!


 Sweet!

But it proves the point, that Sony is not Blu-ray, there are many, many players and supporters. Sony is important, of course, but far less so than Toshiba is to HD DVD. But for those who dislike Sony, I guess it doesn't matter. But lets keep the record straight and that list does.


----------



## BudShark

At this point in the discussion (Netflix, Bestbuy's publicly announced preference, Studio support, etc) - its really down to 2 sides:

1) Supporting a new HD DVD standard called Blu-Ray
2) Hoping no new HD DVD standard emerges and downloads/PPV is the way to get HD DVD.

I think even the HD-DVD supporters would have to agree that HD-DVD as a format is a dead-end and will not survive this year as a substantial player.

Arguments about Blu-Ray aside, its clear HD-DVD has lost the studio and retailer support to succeed at this point.

Chris


----------



## Chuck W

ebaltz said:


> Sony is not Blu-ray.


Sony is VERY much a part of Blu-Ray. I never said they were the only ones, I said they have control and IMO they do. They are one of if not the most influential members. If you think they are not, you are in for a rude awakening. Believe me when I say I hope I am wrong, but I doubt I will be. Like I said...

Be careful what you wish for...


----------



## ebaltz

Chuck W said:


> Sony is VERY much a part of Blu-Ray. I never said they were the only ones, I said they have control and IMO they do. They are one of if not the most influential members. If you think they are not, you are in for a rude awakening. Believe me when I say I hope I am wrong, but I doubt I will be. Like I said...
> 
> Be careful what you wish for...


And if HD DVD was winning would you say they same about Toshiba, which is far more in control over that format than Sony is over Blu-ray? Or is it only Sony who is bad? Just curious.


----------



## Chuck W

ebaltz said:


> And if HD DVD was winning would you say they same about Toshiba, which is far more in control over that format than Sony is over Blu-ray? Or is it only Sony who is bad? Just curious.


Probably not, because Toshiba doesn't have the history that Sony does. It's not the control that is scary, it's what they DO WITH the control, that is.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

BMoreRavens said:


> I know there was some talk about Netflix dropping HD DVD movies earlier today. Here is a email I just received from them about it.





> We're Going Blu-ray


That opening line doesn't sound at all professional. I would expect a corporation to at least pretend to be professional. This sounds more like a fanboy posting, which already makes me think less of Netflix as a company.



> As you may have heard, most of the major movie studios have recently decided to release their high-definition movies exclusively in the Blu-ray format. In order to provide the best selection of high-definition titles for our members, we have decided to go exclusively with Blu-ray as well.


This paragraph is self-contradictory. In order to provide the best selection they are knowingly going to stop carrying all the HD DVD exclusive movies? How is this providing the best selection to their customers?

And for that matter, how is telling all their HD DVD customers that they will soon no longer be able to rent from them providing any kind of service to those customers?

All that said... I've gone on record before as stating that I have never rented a single DVD, much less HD DVD, movie. I used to rent VHS tapes.. but I own more than 900 movies (most in DVD, around 40 in HD DVD)... so I wouldn't even know of Netflix if they weren't talked about sometimes. I haven't set foot inside a Blockbuster store in many years.

I suppose this is bad news... but I don't see it as major bad news.

For that matter... the "Best Buy going to recommend Blu ray" news seems like non-news too. Haven't people been saying for the past year that Best Buy stores taylored their displays to favor Blu ray? And their sales reps tried to encourage Blu ray over HD DVD? So this seems like non-news... As long as customers want HD DVD, Best Buy will sell them OR lose customers.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Sweet!
> 
> But it proves the point, that Sony is not Blu-ray, there are many, many players and supporters. Sony is important, of course, but far less so than Toshiba is to HD DVD. But for those who dislike Sony, I guess it doesn't matter. But lets keep the record straight and that list does.


From your own post:


> CHICAGO (Reuters) - Best Buy Co Inc (BBY.N: Quote, Profile, Research), the largest U.S. consumer electronics chain, said on Monday it will recommend that consumers choose *Sony Corp's* (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research) *Blu-ray high-definition video format*.


from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_ray


> Origins
> 
> *Sony started* two projects applying the new diodes: UDO (Ultra Density Optical) and DVR Blue (together with Pioneer), *a format of rewritable discs which would eventually become Blu-ray Disc* (more specifically, BD-RE).[7] The core technologies of the formats are essentially similar.
> 
> The first DVR Blue prototypes were unveiled at the CEATEC exhibition in October 2000.[8] Because the Blu-ray Disc standard places the data recording layer close to the surface of the disc, early discs were susceptible to contamination and scratches and had to be enclosed in plastic cartridges for protection. *In February 2002, the project was officially announced as Blu-ray,[9] and the Blu-ray Disc Association was founded by the nine initial members*.


Blu Ray IS from Sony....what you so often mention is the BDA...Blu-ray Disc Association.....


----------



## cadet502

Just got the netflix email, and while it may have been a little suprising, it really doesn't effect much. Their HD service sucked anyway. I think I waited 3 months with Bourne at the top of my list, 2 months for Shreck, and Harry Potters last movie has been at the top since they finally sent Bourne. 

I got my player (A-2) for $129 with 7 free movies so no big loss there. Can't say I'll be buying any titles any time soon. Probably hang on to both for a while, heck I just sold my 8tracks on ebay last year.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> Okay then lets stick to the facts. Blu-ray has produced a 50GB disc that is working and being used, both for studio recordings and for in home burners. HD DVD has NOT produced anything even approaching that amount yet. And while they may, may, have a 51GB disc in the future (if there is one, a future that is for the format) by that time Blu-ray will probably be cranking out 100-200GB discs. Time will tell on that, yet, but right now, there is no comparison in storage capacity.


I notice that you couldn't help yourself... you didn't "stick to the facts".. You are adamant that that 51GB is a "what if" but are sure that there will be 100-200GB Blu ray discs.

This kind of stuff comes from both camps, and I just can't take anyone seriously anymore (sorry) who is so determined to be against something that he is going to make up stuff to support his argument.

For the record, though... I am not sure any currently released movie has needed the 50GB space. Some movies like Lord of the Rings (extended) and Ten Commandments, Lawrence of Arabia, etc. could possible use it.. but no one is releasing those right now.

With the current standards, 100-200GB would be overkill for movies... but for computer data could be quite cool.

Truth to tell, I thought some of the specs for Blu ray were superior and wished both camps would have come together in the beginning... but I think all the infighting between the companies and the early-adopter customers who post on forums may very well ensure that both formats fail within the next year or two.

For all the talk about how "consumers have clearly chosen Blu ray"... conveniently missed is how Blu ray + HD DVD is still less than 2% of the total media market... so I continue to argue (unfortunately, since I own HD DVD) that BOTH have failed miserably and consumers have indeed spoken... Spoken loudly to say that DVD is good enough for now, and they don't want any part of either HD DVD or Blu ray.


----------



## BudShark

texaswolf said:


> From your own post:
> 
> from wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_ray
> 
> Blu Ray IS from Sony....what you so often mention is the BDA...Blu-ray Disc Association.....


Sigh.... selective quoting is bad... bad bad bad... Bad WOLFIE! 

Quote from the third paragraph of the link you reference:



> Blu-ray was developed by the Blu-ray Disc Association, a group of companies representing consumer electronics, computer hardware, and motion picture production. The standard is covered by several patents belonging to different companies.


And from your second quote - the "9" notes a source. From that source:



> Blu-Ray is backed by Hitachi, LG, Matsu****a (Panasonic), Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony and Thomson.


Please don't confuse "engineering" with ownership. The ownership and control of something is very different from who engineered and designed it.

Chris


----------



## texaswolf

cadet502 said:


> Just got the netflix email, and while it may have been a little suprising, it really doesn't effect much. Their HD service sucked anyway. I think I waited 3 months with Bourne at the top of my list, 2 months for Shreck, and Harry Potters last movie has been at the top since they finally sent Bourne.
> 
> I got my player (A-2) for $129 with 7 free movies so no big loss there. Can't say I'll be buying any titles any time soon. Probably hang on to both for a while, heck I just sold my 8tracks on ebay last year.


exactly...i got 7 movies and a player for less than my PS3...and i'll continue to buy HD DVD exclusives, instead of waiting for studios to release them on Blu (whenever that may be)...which is more foolish...spending the $100 and enjoying ALL movies on HD....or be stubborn and wait a year or longer for movies to come on both? It all depends on the buyer i guess.


----------



## Tom Robertson

"The discs in the players go round and round
Round and round
Round and round

The 'logic' in this great go round and round
Round and round
Round and round

Each and every post..." 

(Sorry, "Sometimes I just think funny things".)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> Sigh.... selective quoting is bad... bad bad bad... Bad WOLFIE!
> 
> Quote from the third paragraph of the link you reference:
> 
> And from your second quote - the "9" notes a source. From that source:
> 
> Please don't confuse "engineering" with ownership. The ownership and control of something is very different from who engineered and designed it.
> 
> Chris


Come on Bud! Read post first



> Originally Posted by texaswolf View Post
> From your own post:
> 
> from wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_ray
> 
> Blu Ray IS from Sony....what you so often mention is the BDA...Blu-ray Disc Association..


...

I said BR is FROM sony....not is currently all of sony...point being, and what i think others have tried to say without being jumped on from angry BR fanboys....is without Sony...there would be no Blu Ray


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> And if HD DVD was winning would you say they same about Toshiba, which is far more in control over that format than Sony is over Blu-ray? Or is it only Sony who is bad? Just curious.


I think what he is talking about is Sony's obsession with DRM protection (hence the rootkit lawsuits). See below:


> From the rootkit debacle on their audio CD's, to their proposed upscaling preventative measures, on their upcoming SD DVD's, having Sony in control of ANY technology is a scary thought and one I am NOT looking forward to, in the least.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for Blu-Ray diehards, you just might get it.


----------



## GrumpyBear

BudShark said:


> Sigh.... selective quoting is bad... bad bad bad... Bad WOLFIE!
> 
> Quote from the third paragraph of the link you reference:
> 
> And from your second quote - the "9" notes a source. From that source:
> 
> Please don't confuse "engineering" with ownership. The ownership and control of something is very different from who engineered and designed it.
> 
> Chris


Blu Ray "diodes" are OWNED by Sony, developed/discovered by a Sony Engineer, all Current patents are Sony only and only 1 manufacture currently of of Blu-Ray diodes. 
As for Blu Ray, which should be referred as "Blu-ray DEVICES" or BD, Now that Has an Associtaction and has many more than just 9 members now, but 9 was the starting number.

Don't confuse a Association for Development, with the owner of the technology that makes it work. Hopefully with Hitachi, putting more pressure on, we will see more makers of Blu Rays, which allow the prices for BD's to come down, and we will see more Blu Rays, in Hard Drives were they really belong. Sony has had problems producing enough Blu Ray's, not to be confused with Blu Ray Devices, to make everybody happy and for them to keep PS3 numbers up as well.


----------



## GrumpyBear

BudShark said:


> ebaltz gets the Ribbon for "longest" horizontal post in this thread!


It was a long thread, but it missed the point between Blu Ray, and Blu Ray Devices.
Sony controls the pretty blu light, there is an association that says how the players will work. Those are 2 very, very different things.

Sony has far more control than Toshiba could have EVER dreamed off. HD-DVD is using the same core technolgy that DvD's use now. Sony controls the little light, you can only buy the little light from them. Sony is currently the only maker of pretty blu light plain and simple. 
Granted, piggybacking on existing technology Favored Toshiba, royality revenue wise, and just isn't a big enough leap. As most Companies and Tech Geeks, prefer larger steps in techology instead of little baby steps.(allows for longer periods to recoup and then make profit, back)

That little blu light though, is head and shoulder better technolgy wise, not just for our Video enjoyment, but where it really belongs in MULTIPLE forms of disk storage.

Until there are more makers of the little blu light, and that is coming fast, it will be hard for the BDA( which is NOT Blu Ray, but Blu Ray Disk) to force much control over Sony. If they want to do something that Sony doesn't want, like delay BD's until they could get 1.1 to work, Sony just has to say, I am sorry there is a delay in your shipment this month, and eveybody will just listen, not to mention all the joing movie ventures. As more and more internal pressure is on to allow, others to manufacture the little Blu light, Sony will have less control, but will get the Royalty Revenue they lost in the last 2 media fights, and thats what they want, ITS WHAT everybody wants. Most of the other companies, are just waiting to beable to advance all sorts of devices with that blu light, and will stay on the boards until they can. Blu Ray has many more advantages going for it, than just Video players. I will avoid all the rights Sony has tried to deny the average user since the VHS vs Beta days, in the name of Protection.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Come on Bud! Read post first
> 
> ...
> 
> I said BR is FROM sony....not is currently all of sony...point being, and what i think others have tried to say without being jumped on from angry BR fanboys....is without Sony...there would be no Blu Ray


And what would their be without Toshiba? You said Sony was Blu-ray, we proved you wrong. But don't let the facts get in your way of a good rant. We enjoy the effort.:hurah:Bit its all misdirection to keep our focus off today's news and how the dominoes continue to fall against HD DVD.


----------



## machavez00

OK, Now that BD has "won", this thread in now irrelevant and can be closed.


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> OK, Now that BD has "won", *this thread in now irrelevant and can be closed.*


No way! This is one of the most entertaining threads on the site.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Mike728 said:


> No way! This is one of the most entertaining threads on the site.


----------



## BudShark

GrumpyBear said:


> Blu Ray "diodes" are OWNED by Sony, developed/discovered by a Sony Engineer, all Current patents are Sony only and only 1 manufacture currently of of Blu-Ray diodes.
> As for Blu Ray, which should be referred as "Blu-ray DEVICES" or BD, Now that Has an Associtaction and has many more than just 9 members now, but 9 was the starting number.


Ok - now I'm really confused.

Blue Ray Laser diodes are NOT owned by Sony, not manufactured just by Sony, not discovered by Sony. In fact, HD-DVD use blue laser diodes - and I really don't think Sony is supplying them.

A "Blu-Ray" named device is a licensed device from the BDA which requires a slew of patents to produce, none of which are controlled by solely by Sony - or any other company.

In fact, the greatest risk to the BDA is that one of the players gets unhappy and picks their chips up off the table. At that point, Blu-Ray players would no longer be able to be manufactured, and/or, blu-ray discs would no longer be able to be produced.

Yes, absolutely Sony is in this big time. They need/want it to succeed for PS3, growth of consumer electronics, etc... but they are NOT Blu-Ray because Blu-Ray could no legally continue if Sony decided they didn't need anyone else - because Sony does not own all the patents.

Chris


----------



## bobukcat

Chuck W said:


> From the rootkit debacle on their audio CD's, to their proposed upscaling preventative measures, on their upcoming SD DVD's, having Sony in control of ANY technology is a scary thought and one I am NOT looking forward to, in the least.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for Blu-Ray diehards, you just might get it.


I think that stuff like this is going to be decided by the studios, not the BDA or HD DVD associations (both do support HDCP and other DRM enforcement methods, BTW). Keep in mind that the rootkit debacle was only on Sony _Records_ CDs, not every CD that Sony may have pressed in a plant (if they even press CDs anymore), and not every CD just a select few that will now be infamous for a least another year. 

The point I'm trying to make is even if HDDVD won this thing and Sony's studios had to switch to it they could still put the same DRM restrictions on it they could on a BD.


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> That opening line doesn't sound at all professional. I would expect a corporation to at least pretend to be professional. This sounds more like a fanboy posting, which already makes me think less of Netflix as a company.
> 
> This paragraph is self-contradictory. In order to provide the best selection they are knowingly going to stop carrying all the HD DVD exclusive movies? How is this providing the best selection to their customers?


I didn't get the fanboy impression from it but it's all just marketing mumbo-jumbo anyway (no offense meant to any marketing folks, I'm even friends with a few of them!  ). One thought though: they have a finite amount of storage capacity (skus in the system, etc.) and if by dropping HD DVD they can store more BD, or even standard DVDs, then it may well be providing the best service to the those they have chosen to service. I suppose some will see this post as fanboy spin too, but I looked at it as I would have when I ran a business that included inventory decisions. Sometimes carrying less selection makes you more eficient with what you do carry.


----------



## bobukcat

Mike728 said:


> No way! This is one of the most entertaining threads on the site.


+1, even if the logic does go round and round and sometimes borders on hostility. I like it because I don't have to go check all the other sites for news, it all gets posted here!


----------



## elaclair

HDMe said:


> For all the talk about how "consumers have clearly chosen Blu ray"... conveniently missed is how Blu ray + HD DVD is still less than 2% of the total media market... so I continue to argue (unfortunately, since I own HD DVD) that BOTH have failed miserably and consumers have indeed spoken... Spoken loudly to say that DVD is good enough for now, and they don't want any part of either HD DVD or Blu ray.


Supposedly, and I haven't seen the actual numbers to back it up, so take with a grain of salt, HiDef DVDs vs SD DVDs are ahead of the adoption curve as compared to SD DVDs vs VHS tape.

IIRC the "parity" point for SD-DVDs (the point where new technology sales matched old technology sales) was somewhere between 4 and 4.5 years. If they're using the point where Blu-Ray started releasing along with HD-DVD, then we're at slightly over the 2 year point. Obviously add another year to that if they're using from the point HD-DVD sales started.

Either way, if we're truly ahead of the SD DVD adoption curve, then there should be a HUGE increase in sales before the end of the year.

Should make for an interesting summer and holiday sales season if true.........


----------



## BudShark

elaclair said:


> IIRC the "parity" point for SD-DVDs (the point where new technology sales matched old technology sales) was somewhere between 4 and 4.5 years. If they're using the point where Blu-Ray started releasing along with HD-DVD, then we're at slightly over the 2 year point. Obviously add another year to that if they're using from the point HD-DVD sales started.


April 2006 for U.S HD-DVD release - so we have not yet reached the 2 year mark.

Chris


----------



## Christopher Gould

HDMe said:


> I notice that you couldn't help yourself... you didn't "stick to the facts".. You are adamant that that 51GB is a "what if" but are sure that there will be 100-200GB Blu ray discs.
> 
> This kind of stuff comes from both camps, and I just can't take anyone seriously anymore (sorry) who is so determined to be against something that he is going to make up stuff to support his argument.
> 
> For the record, though... I am not sure any currently released movie has needed the 50GB space. Some movies like Lord of the Rings (extended) and Ten Commandments, Lawrence of Arabia, etc. could possible use it.. but no one is releasing those right now.
> 
> With the current standards, 100-200GB would be overkill for movies... but for computer data could be quite cool.
> 
> Truth to tell, I thought some of the specs for Blu ray were superior and wished both camps would have come together in the beginning... but I think all the infighting between the companies and the early-adopter customers who post on forums may very well ensure that both formats fail within the next year or two.
> 
> For all the talk about how "consumers have clearly chosen Blu ray"... conveniently missed is how Blu ray + HD DVD is still less than 2% of the total media market... so I continue to argue (unfortunately, since I own HD DVD) that BOTH have failed miserably and consumers have indeed spoken... Spoken loudly to say that DVD is good enough for now, and they don't want any part of either HD DVD or Blu ray.


on the 100-200gb discs how about a Quadrilogy (Alien movies) all on one disc


----------



## BudShark

GrumpyBear said:


> HD-DVD is using the same core technolgy that DvD's use now.


For clarity purposes this is a 100% factually false statement. This is part of why HD-DVD and the DVD consortium wanted the HD-DVD name (IMO). It gives the warm and fuzzies that it is similar.

Blu-Ray AND HD-DVD both use Blue laser. They are more closely related to each other than to DVD.

Chris


----------



## dhhaines

ebaltz said:


> I'll never understand the philosophy of people who buy $3000 HDTVs and then decide they can't spend over $100 for a hi-def video player.


 I never understand the philosophy of people who worship a media format no matter what format it is.

Did HD-DVD or Toshiba do something to hurt you?

Get over it that some people actually like a format that you don't.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Guess time for the daily "Play nice post". Please don't talk about each other, talk about the technology and the latest news instead.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## DCSholtis

Amazing what a year and a few hundred million of $ony cash can bring this is what Nexflix stated a year ago before $ony got to them:
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...tflix/Report:_Netflix_Users_Favor_HD_DVD/1036



> Report: Netflix Users Favor HD DVD
> Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 01:11 PM ET
> Tags: Netflix, High-Def Disc Rentals (all tags)
> 
> A new report indicates that although only a tiny percentage of Netflix users are high-def early adopters, among them HD DVD appears to be favored over Blu-ray by a factor of more than two-to-one.
> ...
> 
> Based on these numbers, Compete says those who looked at the HD-DVD genre were 4.4 times more likely than Blu-ray browsers to actually set this as their preferred format.
> ...


Edit: (Tom Robertson) Trimmed the quoted section to protect the copyrights. Please see the link for more information.


----------



## BudShark

DCSholtis said:


> Amazing what a year and a few hundred million of $ony cash can bring this is what Nexflix stated a year ago before $ony got to them:
> http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...tflix/Report:_Netflix_Users_Favor_HD_DVD/1036
> 
> Edit: (Tom Robertson) Trimmed the quoted section to protect the copyrights. Please see the link for more information.


Hmmm... actually another mis-representation.

Netflix did not comment in the article you linked to. In fact, Netflix's only statement of record said rentals were evenly split (as quoted in your linked article).

The linked article also states Blu-Ray pages got twice the previews, whereas HD-DVD got twice the "preferences".

So we can spin it as even in October Blu-Ray had twice the interest on Netflix...

Regardless - its irrelevant to the current facts, and there is 0 evidence (or rumors) of Sony paying Netflix anything.

Chris


----------



## elaclair

BudShark said:


> April 2006 for U.S HD-DVD release - so we have not yet reached the 2 year mark.
> 
> Chris


Guess it just FEELS like it's been longer.......:lol: I happily stand corrected. The first blu-ray titles were released in June 06, which is what I remember. But for some reason I thought the first HD-DVD title was earlier than April.....


----------



## BudShark

I honestly think this topic is somewhat trending downward at this point. I do have a question - and I ask this in an open and honest way:

Does anyone see a scenario that includes HD-DVD making it to the 2008 holiday season as a viable format?

Chris


----------



## ccr1958

received this email from Netfilx today....
i am on neither side.....this is just info

We're Going Blu-ray 

Dear ccr1958,

You're receiving this email because you have asked to receive high-definition movies in the HD DVD format. As you may have heard, most of the major movie studios have recently decided to release their high-definition movies exclusively in the Blu-ray format. In order to provide the best selection of high-definition titles for our members, we have decided to go exclusively with Blu-ray as well.

While we will continue to make our current selection of HD DVD titles available to you for the next several months, we will not be adding additional HD DVD titles or reordering replacements.

Toward the end of February, HD DVDs in your Saved Queue will automatically be changed to standard definition DVDs. Then toward the end of this year, all HD DVDs in your Queue will be changed to standard definition DVDs. Don't worry, we will contact you before this happens.

You can click here to change your format preferences.

We're sorry for any inconvenience. If you have any questions or need further assistance, please call us at 1 (888) 638-3549.

-The Netflix Team


----------



## machavez00

BudShark said:


> I honestly think this topic is somewhat trending downward at this point. I do have a question - and I ask this in an open and honest way:
> 
> Does anyone see a scenario that includes HD-DVD making it to the 2008 holiday season as a viable format?
> 
> Chris


EU importing


----------



## GrumpyBear

BudShark said:


> I honestly think this topic is somewhat trending downward at this point. I do have a question - and I ask this in an open and honest way:
> 
> Does anyone see a scenario that includes HD-DVD making it to the 2008 holiday season as a viable format?
> 
> Chris


Viable?!?!?!?! Well there will be "New" Movies still being released, but as for Viable......
I would say NO.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> And what would their be without Toshiba? You said Sony was Blu-ray, we proved you wrong. But don't let the facts get in your way of a good rant. We enjoy the effort.:hurah:Bit its all misdirection to keep our focus off today's news and how the dominoes continue to fall against HD DVD.


lol...i'm just going to let you read your own post, and figure out what you were trying to say...again, i said Blu ray was *from* sony......i'll pause to give you time to go back and read.....................................ok, all clear now? So i guess there was no proving of anything.

I'm not coming on here and bashing and trashing one format over the other, or anybody who dares mention a bad word about one format...im not that personally wrapped up in it, to where i think that HD news is everywhere i turn. Todays news is surprising...yes, but not to the point where i am challenging anyone to try and spin it...and when they do :soapbox:....does this sound familiar?

Keep in mind...i have both formats...so i don't get in a hissy fit when something bad happens with HD DVD...I also have Blu Ray...yet i dont need to come on here and tell everyone over, and over, and over...that it's over.....nobody else here cares *that* much....honestly.



> I honestly think this topic is somewhat trending downward at this point. I do have a question - and I ask this in an open and honest way:
> 
> Does anyone see a scenario that includes HD-DVD making it to the 2008 holiday season as a viable format?
> 
> Chris


If a major studio for some reason switches back neutral or to HDDVD...otherwise....doubtful


----------



## Stewart Vernon

BudShark said:


> I honestly think this topic is somewhat trending downward at this point. I do have a question - and I ask this in an open and honest way:
> 
> Does anyone see a scenario that includes HD-DVD making it to the 2008 holiday season as a viable format?
> 
> Chris


Lots of scenarios...

1. Someone currently Blu ray exclusive (say Disney) goes neutral if the HD DVD players in the customers' homes keeps increasing.
2. More people become aware of import options of "Blu ray exclusives" that are available in HD DVD format from overseas.
3. US HD DVD exclusive studios begin offering twin/combo discs only, no DVD releases.. lower the price on HD DVD combo/twin to around $20-$25 like "deluxe" editions, and customers who buy DVD will automatically have HD DVD movies in the home.

In fact, even if no one does anything different in terms of marketing... as long as Toshiba continues to make players and Universal/Paramount/Dreamworks continue to be HD DVD exclusive... they can still be viable at least another year.

The current Blu ray + HD DVD total market is doing about 2% max of what the DVD market brings in... so unless that changes, both formats are on life support really. Also, this means any small change in the market could dramatically swing the tide in favor of either camp.

No HD DVD or Blu ray title to date has sold 200,000 copies. DVDs routinely sell in the millions even for non hot titles. Blockbusters sell 5-10 million on DVD, or around 150,000 on HD DVD or Blu ray.

Also... for all the touting of Blu ray having more exclusive studio support once Warner goes completely Blu ray in June... to date, there is roughly the same amount of HD DVD and Blu ray releases... which is to say, not many. In the US there is somewhere around 1000 HD DVD + Blu ray releases available at the moment, around 450 titles per format.

All the studio support in the world means nothing if releases aren't happening... and studios on both sides have been reluctant to flood the market with movies on the new formats. IF any single studio changed their approach and started releasing quality titles at an accelerated rate, that could easily swing the momentum.

FOX, as an example, is exclusively Blu ray... but has not exactly filled the shelves with regular Blu ray titles.

To be blunt... I wouldn't be surprised to see BOTH formats gone in the next 2 years... I also wouldn't be surprised to see HD DVD come back strong... or disappear. The market is very volatile right now and has yet to see much consumer support.


----------



## shendley

I wonder what the impending doom of HDDVD (and as an HDDVD owner, it pains me to say it, but the writing is clearly on the wall today) will do to Blu-Ray's pricing of their machines. The competition with HDDVD hasn't been sufficient to motivate them to lower their prices much. I guess they just figured the studios plus Blockbuster plus Netflix plus Best Buy would kill HD no matter how cheaply they were priced - and it looks like they figured right. But now that it's a done deal, I just don't see the high definition dvd format taking off unless the prices of the Blu machines come down and come down pretty significantly. I didn't take the plunge into high def dvds until I saw a Toshiba pretty close to $200. And I'm pretty sure I'm not going to pick up a blu machine until it reaches a similar price point. But I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Perhaps I'm not typical here and people who are paying a couple grand for their new HD tvs won't mind putting down another extra half grand for the blu-ray player. But that doesn't sound likely to me.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> Lots of scenarios...
> 
> 1. Someone currently Blu ray exclusive (say Disney) goes neutral if the HD DVD players in the customers' homes keeps increasing.
> 2. More people become aware of import options of "Blu ray exclusives" that are available in HD DVD format from overseas.
> 3. US HD DVD exclusive studios begin offering twin/combo discs only, no DVD releases.. lower the price on HD DVD combo/twin to around $20-$25 like "deluxe" editions, and customers who buy DVD will automatically have HD DVD movies in the home.
> 
> In fact, even if no one does anything different in terms of marketing... as long as Toshiba continues to make players and Universal/Paramount/Dreamworks continue to be HD DVD exclusive... they can still be viable at least another year.
> 
> The current Blu ray + HD DVD total market is doing about 2% max of what the DVD market brings in... so unless that changes, both formats are on life support really. Also, this means any small change in the market could dramatically swing the tide in favor of either camp.
> 
> No HD DVD or Blu ray title to date has sold 200,000 copies. DVDs routinely sell in the millions even for non hot titles. Blockbusters sell 5-10 million on DVD, or around 150,000 on HD DVD or Blu ray.
> 
> Also... for all the touting of Blu ray having more exclusive studio support once Warner goes completely Blu ray in June... to date, there is roughly the same amount of HD DVD and Blu ray releases... which is to say, not many. In the US there is somewhere around 1000 HD DVD + Blu ray releases available at the moment, around 450 titles per format.
> 
> All the studio support in the world means nothing if releases aren't happening... and studios on both sides have been reluctant to flood the market with movies on the new formats. IF any single studio changed their approach and started releasing quality titles at an accelerated rate, that could easily swing the momentum.
> 
> FOX, as an example, is exclusively Blu ray... but has not exactly filled the shelves with regular Blu ray titles.
> 
> To be blunt... I wouldn't be surprised to see BOTH formats gone in the next 2 years... I also wouldn't be surprised to see HD DVD come back strong... or disappear. The market is very volatile right now and has yet to see much consumer support.


some good points. I have been seeing more and more HDDVD/DVD disc out...which is smart IMO...people can grab a $19.99 movie for their dvd player, and when(if) they decide to go high def, will already have HDDVD titles in the house...question is...will it matter?


----------



## texaswolf

Question for everyone with BOTH formats:

Any of you seen Full Metal Jacket (deluxe) on each format? Just wondering if either is better than the other without renting both (yeah i'm cheap...lol).

Also....anyone have Pearl Harbor on BR? Is it worth the High def buy...or did they screw it up?

Figure we could get some different format film thoughts in here also:shrug:


----------



## bobukcat

shendley said:


> I wonder what the impending doom of HDDVD (and as an HDDVD owner, it pains me to say it, but the writing is clearly on the wall today) will do to Blu-Ray's pricing of their machines. The competition with HDDVD hasn't been sufficient to motivate them to lower their prices much. I guess they just figured the studios plus Blockbuster plus Netflix plus Best Buy would kill HD no matter how cheaply they were priced - and it looks like they figured right. But now that it's a done deal, I just don't see the high definition dvd format taking off unless the prices of the Blu machines come down and come down pretty significantly. I didn't take the plunge into high def dvds until I saw a Toshiba pretty close to $200. And I'm pretty sure I'm not going to pick up a blu machine until it reaches a similar price point. But I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Perhaps I'm not typical here and people who are paying a couple grand for their new HD tvs won't mind putting down another extra half grand for the blu-ray player. But that doesn't sound likely to me.


At the risk of repeating myself and others, my first DVD player = $375 (and I was not really an early adopter), first CD player $525 (closer to early adopter on that one) and I specifically remember there was a serious lack of titles released for the formats at the time. If you apply inflation the prices of the BD players is NOT out of control, especially if you consider I never spent more than $600 for a TV until my first HD set which was over $3K. I understand that red went with a different approach and tried to grab the market with lower pricing so that makes the BD prices look worse, but in comparison I think they are still in-line and would drop quickly if mass adoption occurs, just like it did with DVD and CDs.


----------



## elaclair

texaswolf said:


> Question for everyone with BOTH formats:
> 
> Any of you seen Full Metal Jacket (deluxe) on each format? Just wondering if either is better than the other without renting both (yeah i'm cheap...lol).


Looking at the data on the discs, Warner used the same video encoding on both formats, so I would expect the video to look the same. On the other hand, the Blu-Ray version uses lossless PCM audio while the HD-DVD version uses TruHD, so the audio SHOULD be better on the Blu-Ray version.

I checked a few sites and the price is about the same for either version (not counting any specials for either format)


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> Lots of scenarios...
> 
> 1. Someone currently Blu ray exclusive (say Disney) goes neutral if the HD DVD players in the customers' homes keeps increasing.
> 2. More people become aware of import options of "Blu ray exclusives" that are available in HD DVD format from overseas.
> 3. US HD DVD exclusive studios begin offering twin/combo discs only, no DVD releases.. lower the price on HD DVD combo/twin to around $20-$25 like "deluxe" editions, and customers who buy DVD will automatically have HD DVD movies in the home.
> 
> In fact, even if no one does anything different in terms of marketing... as long as Toshiba continues to make players and Universal/Paramount/Dreamworks continue to be HD DVD exclusive... they can still be viable at least another year.
> 
> The current Blu ray + HD DVD total market is doing about 2% max of what the DVD market brings in... so unless that changes, both formats are on life support really. Also, this means any small change in the market could dramatically swing the tide in favor of either camp.
> 
> No HD DVD or Blu ray title to date has sold 200,000 copies. DVDs routinely sell in the millions even for non hot titles. Blockbusters sell 5-10 million on DVD, or around 150,000 on HD DVD or Blu ray.
> 
> Also... for all the touting of Blu ray having more exclusive studio support once Warner goes completely Blu ray in June... to date, there is roughly the same amount of HD DVD and Blu ray releases... which is to say, not many. In the US there is somewhere around 1000 HD DVD + Blu ray releases available at the moment, around 450 titles per format.
> 
> All the studio support in the world means nothing if releases aren't happening... and studios on both sides have been reluctant to flood the market with movies on the new formats. IF any single studio changed their approach and started releasing quality titles at an accelerated rate, that could easily swing the momentum.
> 
> FOX, as an example, is exclusively Blu ray... but has not exactly filled the shelves with regular Blu ray titles.
> 
> To be blunt... I wouldn't be surprised to see BOTH formats gone in the next 2 years... I also wouldn't be surprised to see HD DVD come back strong... or disappear. The market is very volatile right now and has yet to see much consumer support.


I'll assign a probability to any of those. .00001%


----------



## Tom Robertson

First CD player=~$800. Used it on a $300 compact stereo! (Best improvement in sound quality I'd heard, it was fantastic.)

Then a little bit later I filled in the rest of a first class audio system for the time. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## machavez00

bobukcat said:


> At the risk of repeating myself and others, my first DVD player = $375 (and I was not really an early adopter), first CD player $525 (closer to early adopter on that one) and I specifically remember there was a serious lack of titles released for the formats at the time. If you apply inflation the prices of the BD players is NOT out of control, especially if you consider I never spent more than $600 for a TV until my first HD set which was over $3K. I understand that red went with a different approach and tried to grab the market with lower pricing so that makes the BD prices look worse, but in comparison I think they are still in-line and would drop quickly if mass adoption occurs, just like it did with DVD and CDs.


you can still buy new vinyl if look around and BB still sell turntables
http://www.themusic.com/search.cfm?groove_cat=1&sidebar=groove


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> I'll assign a probability to any of those. .00001%


A lot of people didn't expect Paramount/Dreamworks to go HDDVD exclusive..

OR did they expect Warner/New Line to go Blu Ray exclusive...but i'm sure the "probability" of any studio jumping ship is higher than that...as we have seen.

since you assigned the probability...give us some basis to that probability...


----------



## chris0

elaclair said:


> Looking at the data on the discs, Warner used the same video encoding on both formats, so I would expect the video to look the same. On the other hand, the Blu-Ray version uses lossless PCM audio while the HD-DVD version uses TruHD, so the audio SHOULD be better on the Blu-Ray version.


PCM isn't compressed, so it's not considered "lossless" or "lossy." TrueHD (and DTS HD MA) is compressed, but it's lossless compression, and gets decoded into uncompressed PCM. Assuming they're both mastered with he same bit depth (24 bit probably) they'll both sound exactly the same.

Uncompressed PCM=decoded TrueHD=decoded DTS HD MA=Studio Master, they're all the same.


----------



## turey22

does anybody have netflix? I got an email saying that they will be going with blueray too, but they really dont have alot of BR movies. I've been waitiing two weeks for one. question is if only some movie studios did the change will the other ones be forced to make the change also or will they still keeps popping out hddvd's?


----------



## braven

A few months ago I was on the fence. I wanted to upgrade our HT DVD player so I decided on either a PS3 or a 3fixme + HD DVD add on. I am soooo happy I went with the PS3. Seems I picked the right horse.


----------



## Capmeister

I have Netflix. Got the same email. :/


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> Also....anyone have Pearl Harbor on BR? Is it worth the High def buy...or did they screw it up?


Pearl Harbor on BD is absolutely awesome. The plain jane DVD I had was great, this definately takes it a step further.

Yes IMHO it's worth it.


----------



## Richard King

http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=90873&var=story#90873
Confirmation on Netflix. Plus this: 


> In another bellwether moment in the waning days of the format war, the popular DVD rental-by-mail service Netflix announced Monday that it is going exclusively with the Blu-ray Disc format for high-definition, the AP reported.
> 
> Meanwhile, *Best Buy last week said that it will now "recommend" Blu-ray to its customers,* although the retail giant stopped short of going exclusive. This means that starting in March, Best Buy will "showcase" Blu-ray products, while still continuing to carry players and movies in the HD DVD format.


Someone want to pass the hammer and nails????


----------



## Drew2k

Richard King said:


> http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=90873&var=story#90873
> Confirmation on Netflix. Plus this:
> Someone want to pass the hammer and nails????


They ran out of hammers and nails when the news broke back in post 1954 ...


----------



## machavez00

I went into my BB store and asked if the player I was looking at was a profile 1.0 or 1.1 player. The sales associate look puzzled and as if he had no idea what I was talking about. It appears they have been told to play dumb when asked what profile a player is, so as to sell off the existing profile 1.0 players. Once it was obvious I had some idea what I was talking about he said it was a profile 1.0 player


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> I went into my BB store and asked if the player I was looking at was a profile 1.0 or 1.1 player. The sales associate look puzzled and as if he had no idea what I was talking about. It appears they have been told to play dumb when asked what profile a player is,


How much you want to bet he wasn't "playing" dumb?


----------



## texaswolf

Mike728 said:


> How much you want to bet he wasn't "playing" dumb?


yeah no kidding...and these are the guys that are going to be recommending blu ray to the customers....god help them all


----------



## Snoofie

bobukcat said:


> At the risk of repeating myself and others, my first DVD player = $375 (and I was not really an early adopter), first CD player $525 (closer to early adopter on that one) and I specifically remember there was a serious lack of titles released for the formats at the time.


My first DVD player was a $300 Pioneer from Circuit City and that was when you couldn't even buy DVD's in stores. I remember the first place I found them in stores was at Target and they only had 5 or 6 titles. The online deals were great. I remember a place called www.800.com that had a 3 for $1 deal on a selection of DVD's and I was lucky enough to get in on it. Then there was www.reel.com that used to have lots of coupons that would let you get DVD's for under $10 most of the time. Then the bubble burst and most of those places stopped selling DVD's or simply shut down. I have gotten way off topic....


----------



## Richard King

Drew2k said:


> They ran out of hammers and nails when the news broke back in post 1954 ...


Ah, what's a day? :lol: I'm going to have to scold my sources for being a day late.


----------



## elaclair

texaswolf said:


> yeah no kidding...and these are the guys that are going to be recommending blu ray to the customers....god help them all


he he Being in the DFW area, you've probably never had the joy of talking to a sales rep. at Fry's.....they make the checkout girl at Bed, Bath & Beyond seem like an Electronics Genius.......


----------



## FogCutter

turey22 said:


> does anybody have netflix? I got an email saying that they will be going with blueray too, but they really dont have alot of BR movies. I've been waitiing two weeks for one. question is if only some movie studios did the change will the other ones be forced to make the change also or will they still keeps popping out hddvd's?


Yep, got the same message from NetFlix. Glad I only have $99 invested in my HD-DVD player. Can't blame NetFlix, saves them a ton.

Blockbuster went BluRay only for a while, then renigged, and now I don't know what they are doing.

A BluRay sun is rising. Sony might actually win one.


----------



## bobukcat

Mike728 said:


> How much you want to bet he wasn't "playing" dumb?


Yeah, what he said! :thats:


----------



## chris0

turey22 said:


> does anybody have netflix? I got an email saying that they will be going with blueray too, but they really dont have alot of BR movies. I've been waitiing two weeks for one. *question is if only some movie studios did the change will the other ones be forced to make the change also or will they still keeps popping out hddvd's?*


That's the million dollar question. Or the $150 or $500 question or whatever. It seems that that's what companies are trying to do now, force the hand of the remaining HD DVD studios to adopt Blu-Ray and go forward with a unified format.

As for Netflix, hopefully this will allow them to increase their stock of BD movie copies so the wait won't be so long.


----------



## texaswolf

elaclair said:


> he he Being in the DFW area, you've probably never had the joy of talking to a sales rep. at Fry's.....they make the checkout girl at Bed, Bath & Beyond seem like an Electronics Genius.......


Oh yeah, i have dealt with Fry's also...i think that where they go when not hired at BB...Funny part about all this...when Warner went blu, a lot of the "reason" they gave was to not further confuse the customer:lol: this could be even worse.

I agree that if Netflix is choosing Blu they better get more BD movies in...between them and Blbr....the selection sucked...in store Blbr's Blu selection is even worse....if your gonna throw your hat in the ring, better be ready to deliver...so hopefully they do up the titles.


----------



## Jason Nipp

machavez00 said:


> I went into my BB store and asked if the player I was looking at was a profile 1.0 or 1.1 player. The sales associate look puzzled and as if he had no idea what I was talking about. It appears they have been told to play dumb when asked what profile a player is, so as to sell off the existing profile 1.0 players. Once it was obvious I had some idea what I was talking about he said it was a profile 1.0 player





Mike728 said:


> How much you want to bet he wasn't "playing" dumb?


I went into a BB one time after work to look at a 32" Flat Panel for my Bedroom and I had the sales guy try to tell me Westinghouse and Philips were the same company so it wasn't worth the extra $190 bucks to go with the Philips.... And he did that while I was still wearing my Philips employee badge.  So after listening to his sales pitch for about 15 minutes, I must have rolled my eyes enough time for the manager to pick up on the fact this guy was talking smack about a product to an employee of that said company, and he quickly took over the conversation.... Can't believe the observation skills of the BB sales people. I hear spewing all the time when I go into there.

And no Fred... I don't work for Philips anymore either.


----------



## bobukcat

Jason Nipp said:


> I went into a BB one time after work to look at a 32" Flat Panel for my Bedroom and I had the sales guy try to tell me Westinghouse and Philips were the same company so it wasn't worth the extra $190 bucks to go with the Philips.... And he did that while I was still wearing my Philips employee badge.  So after listening to his sales pitch for about 15 minutes, I must have rolled my eyes enough time for the manager to pick up on the fact this guy was talking smack about a product to an employee of that said company, and he quickly took over the conversation.... Can't believe the observation skills of the BB sales people. I hear spewing all the time when I go into there.
> 
> And no Fred... I don't work for Philips anymore either.


It's hard for me to not interject when I overhear them giving grossly false information to customers when I'm in there looking at stuff. I made that mistake just once though and then I ended up answering questions from about 5 people plus two employees for about 20 minutes! This was still not as bad as me essentially holding a class for every HH Gregg rep in the store while showing why I was bringing my Mits DLP set back and how every one they had on the floor and in stock had the exact same problem (keystone issue). :nono2:


----------



## bobukcat

I don't think even the most red-blooded (couldnt' resist  ) fan in the world can read this and not think "that's the best you could do?!?!?". Perhaps they had the backup PR people working today while the normal crew went out to drown their sorrows?? :goodjob:



> "We have long held the belief that HD DVD is the best format for consumers based on quality and value, and with more than 1 million HD DVD players on the market, it's unfortunate to see Netflix make the decision to only stock Blu-ray titles going forward. While the Best Buy announcement says they will recommend Blu-ray, at least they will continue to carry HD DVD and offer consumers a choice at retail."


http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/1...sad-little-response-to-netflix-best-buy-snub/


----------



## machavez00

BB training academy


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> I don't think even the most red-blooded (couldnt' resist  ) fan in the world can read this and not think "that's the best you could do?!?!?". Perhaps they had the backup PR people working today while the normal crew went out to drown their sorrows?? :goodjob:
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/1...sad-little-response-to-netflix-best-buy-snub/


i know..might as well have come out and said "OH YEAH? WELL....SO!!"


----------



## Drew2k

bobukcat said:


> I don't think even the most red-blooded (couldnt' resist  ) fan in the world can read this and not think "that's the best you could do?!?!?". Perhaps they had the backup PR people working today while the normal crew went out to drown their sorrows?? :goodjob:
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/1...sad-little-response-to-netflix-best-buy-snub/


If anyone ever thought engadget was unbiased, the headline of that article alone should dispel that notion: "HD DVD camp issues sad little response to Netflix, Best Buy snubs". Use of "sad" and "little" in the headline is something I wouldn't even expect to see in editorials ....


----------



## Dr_J

I got my five free HD-DVD's in the mail today from when I sent in the form at the end of October.


----------



## BudShark

I've come to the conclusion that engadget is very biased....

Against all corporations. They trash HD-DVD through one side of their mouth and Blu-Ray out the other. They have fallen hook line and sinker for the "millenial" attitude of negativity toward all things news and corporate.

Chris


----------



## BudShark

Dr_J said:


> I got my five free HD-DVD's in the mail today from when I sent in the form at the end of October.


Did they come with a PR note from the HD-DVD team???



> Well, here are your free HD-DVD's. At least you got these. As you know, Best Buy, Netflix, soon Paramount... well you get the point. Heh, we still have the better format and we kept our promise and sent your free HD-DVD's.
> 
> Oh yeah, and Blu-Ray sucks!


Chris


----------



## Drew2k

I got my 5 free HD-DVDs a little over a week ago. I had submitted the form in the first week of December.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

sorry hdtvfan.... but this looks like game over...


----------



## Dr_J

BudShark said:


> Did they come with a PR note from the HD-DVD team???
> 
> Chris


Nope. Just the HD-DVD's. Not even a packing slip.


----------



## Mike728

I got mine yesterday. I was getting worried that they weren't going to send me them, because it was my 2nd time in a little less than a year.


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> Did they come with a PR note from the HD-DVD team???
> 
> Chris


lol...no kidding



> sorry our pockets weren't as deep, but hey...you got to enjoy Matrix in HD for the last year, right? Good luck with that profile thing.


----------



## bobukcat

Drew2k said:


> If anyone ever thought engadget was unbiased, the headline of that article alone should dispel that notion: "HD DVD camp issues sad little response to Netflix, Best Buy snubs". Use of "sad" and "little" in the headline is something I wouldn't even expect to see in editorials ....


I thought the same thing and then I read the quote and agreed too whole-heartedly with the description to mention it!! :blackeye:


----------



## shendley

I see where you're coming from here and maybe I'm just cheap when it comes to DVD players, but I still think you're not going to come close to mass adoption of Blu Ray until the machines begin to hover around $200. When the Toshiba's approached that price point I thought they could have take off if it weren't for 1) consumer uncertainty over the format war and 2) continual bad press from studios and Blockbuster declaring Blu Ray the winner. I wouldn't bet on any hunch I have about economic trends (historically, they're not the best - such as my belief the HDDVD would win the format war!), but my hunch is that Blu Ray won't come down in price much and this whole high def dvd thing will go the way of laser discs. Right now, there's quite a lot of hd movies available on directv and though I will miss not being able to buy or rent some new movies I'd like to see on dvd in hd, I really won't miss it that much. No way I even sniff a blu ray player until they approach $200.



bobukcat said:


> At the risk of repeating myself and others, my first DVD player = $375 (and I was not really an early adopter), first CD player $525 (closer to early adopter on that one) and I specifically remember there was a serious lack of titles released for the formats at the time. If you apply inflation the prices of the BD players is NOT out of control, especially if you consider I never spent more than $600 for a TV until my first HD set which was over $3K. I understand that red went with a different approach and tried to grab the market with lower pricing so that makes the BD prices look worse, but in comparison I think they are still in-line and would drop quickly if mass adoption occurs, just like it did with DVD and CDs.


----------



## DCSholtis

Drew2k said:


> If anyone ever thought engadget was unbiased, the headline of that article alone should dispel that notion: "HD DVD camp issues sad little response to Netflix, Best Buy snubs". Use of "sad" and "little" in the headline is something I wouldn't even expect to see in editorials ....


They're run by AOHell/Time Warner. That should tell you something about their "unbiased" opinions.


----------



## texaswolf

DCSholtis said:


> They're run by AOHell/Time Warner. That should tell you something about their "unbiased" opinions.


exactly


----------



## chris0

Drew2k said:


> If anyone ever thought engadget was unbiased, the headline of that article alone should dispel that notion: "HD DVD camp issues sad little response to Netflix, Best Buy snubs". Use of "sad" and "little" in the headline is something I wouldn't even expect to see in editorials ....


They're just sarcastic like that. I don't think they've ever claimed or pretended to be a "serious" site. They even have a running thing called "CE-Oh no he didn't!" whenever a CEO puts his foot in his mouth or just says something stupid.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Wow, no posts in 15 hours.....


----------



## dhhaines

Jason Nipp said:


> Wow, no posts in 15 hours.....


 Every one is watching their favorite movies on "insert your choice of HD media here" . :grin:


----------



## machavez00

Jason Nipp said:


> Wow, no posts in 15 hours.....


We were waiting to see if any got a time out.


----------



## Jason Nipp

I guess I shoulda waited to see if we could go 24 hours without any fighting...


----------



## Mike728

I've been busy counting my HD-DVD's. I'm going to write them off on this years tax return.


----------



## dhhaines

Jason Nipp said:


> I guess I shoulda waited to see if we could go 24 hours without any fighting...


 Well it's still good for that.... only 9 hours left... 

Besides, Until you posted I just figured the thread was closed.


----------



## FogCutter

In all fairness to the BB kids, they are mostly part time, not heading for a BB career, and not on commission. More like assembly work than sales. Putting nipples on widgets over and over and over. What brain was there goes numb quickly. 

I know, it's aggravating, and an ongoing fountain of good stories, but with rare exceptions a sales person anywhere is not a good source of information. Car salesmen are the worst, but many of the BB guys work hard to plumb the depths.

If someone really and truly knows something and can use that knowledge, they shouldn't be working the floor at BB. 

The true mental giants are over at Sam's Club anyway.


----------



## BudShark

Mike728 said:


> I've been busy counting my HD-DVD's. I'm going to write them off on this years tax return.


Brings up a good point... I wonder what the rebate checks will do for the purchases of next generation DVD players! :grin:

Chris


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> I guess I shoulda waited to see if we could go 24 hours without any fighting...


What a bunch of crap! I can't believe you......just kidding...

I thought something was wrong with my subscription...never seen this busy of a thread go that long without a post.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well I got my 5 free yesterday. Covers my investment anyway. 

How will I know the format war is over? When this thread is idle for 48 hours.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well I got my 5 free yesterday. Covers my investment anyway.
> 
> How will I know the format war is over? When this thread is idle for 48 hours.


Sigh, I should have waited to see how long it would be silent then.


----------



## dhhaines

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well I got my 5 free yesterday. Covers my investment anyway.
> 
> How will I know the format war is over? When this thread is idle for 48 hours.


 Meaning that the thread will be 200 pages long by then I'm afraid.


----------



## ebaltz

I'll get us back on track, talking about how Blu-ray is putting a beat down on HD DUD:

Blu-ray Disc Association The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) announced today that they have broken the two million discs sold milestone in Europe, only two months after selling their one millionth disc. According to research done by GfK International, a total of 2.4M Blu-ray discs have been sold across Europe since the format launched. *This equates to 79% of the high definition market.*

In December alone, a half million Blu-ray discs were sold during the important holiday season. The biggest seller during this time was 'Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End' which sold nearly 100,000 units. Coming in second was 'The Simpsons Movie' followed by 'Casino Royale'. *During this time, Blu-ray sold at a 3-to-1 ratio over rival high definition formats*.

When comparing this success to DVD, the results are even more impressive. The second year of DVD resulted in 230,000 players and 2M discs sold. For Blu-ray, it has resulted in 3.5M players (3.2M PS3s and 34,000 standalone players) and 2.3M Blu-ray discs sold.​


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well I got my 5 free yesterday. Covers my investment anyway.
> 
> How will I know the format war is over? When this thread is idle for 48 hours.


Stuart, Got a PS3 for Christmas and submitted the 5-free thingy right after New Year. Got my 5 freebies yesterday......so I now own my first HiDef DVDs.


----------



## ebaltz

"The War is Over"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23145734/

Doesn't the "MS" in MSNBC stand for Microsoft?


----------



## steinmeg

I have a Sony Blue Ray player, and so far I am not happy...I rent movies brand new relaeses( Brave One as an example) ..the colors are dark, and it certainly does not look any better tyhan a regulary 480P DVD...I called Sony( all in the Phillapines) and one guy tells me I need a new firmware update, another guy sdays its the movie..I give up. 
Some movies are very good, Spiderman 3 , The Black Book), but for the most part I am not happy

PS Iam waiting on the new firmware update to arrive..I doubt if this would help at all. Spoke to supervisor yesterday at Sony, and he told me it would not help at all. The player will try and give me the best picture possible(I find it is better on an older machine( non Blue Ray movie)


----------



## bobukcat

elaclair said:


> Stuart, Got a PS3 for Christmas and submitted the 5-free thingy right after New Year. Got my 5 freebies yesterday......so I now own my first HiDef DVDs.


Hey, that's encouraging, I sent mine in right before the New Year so maybe I'll be getting them soon too!! :jump3:


----------



## bobukcat

steinmeg said:


> I have a Sony Blue Ray player, and so far I am not happy...I rent movies brand new relaeses( Brave One as an example) ..the colors are dark, and it certainly does not look any better tyhan a regulary 480P DVD...I called Sony( all in the Phillapines) and one guy tells me I need a new firmware update, another guy sdays its the movie..I give up.
> Some movies are very good, Spiderman 3 , The Black Book), but for the most part I am not happy
> 
> PS Iam waiting on the new firmware update to arrive..I doubt if this would help at all. Spoke to supervisor yesterday at Sony, and he told me it would not help at all. The player will try and give me the best picture possible(I find it is better on an older machine( non Blue Ray movie)


What model player do you have, what kind of display is it hooked up to and how is it connected (HDMI or Component)? I've heard and read about some really poor early BD encodes buy have been lucky enough to avoid any that didn't look better than an upscaled DVD so far. I haven't seen Brave One but the only review of it at Blu-ray.com gave it good marks for video quality so maybe I'll try to get it from Netflix and see how it looks on my PS3.

In any case I certainly wouldn't expect a firmware update to improve the PQ, unless there is a bug in the VC-1 decoder and then I would expect it to affect all VC-1 movies - perhaps you could look at how those that look poor are encoded and see if that's the case??


----------



## bobukcat

For those waiting for this follow-up to what many consider the best current stand-alone player, Panny released some details today, among them:



> Also of note is that this player will support both internal decoding and bitstream output for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD (both HR and MA) audio formats and is a certified DivX product.


http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=957

P.S. Yes this is from a BD site, but who should have better early information about a BD player than them??


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> I'll get us back on track, talking about how Blu-ray is putting a beat down on HD DUD:
> Blu-ray Disc Association The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) announced today that they have broken the two million discs sold milestone in Europe, only two months after selling their one millionth disc. According to research done by GfK International, a total of 2.4M Blu-ray discs have been sold across Europe since the format launched. *This equates to 79% of the high definition market.*​


​Wow... so the total amount of Blu ray discs sold to date does not even approach a non-blockbuster DVD release.

This just confirms what I keep saying about both Blu ray and HD DVD... People want to talk about how "big" of an advantage Blu ray has over HD DVD in sales... when even if you add their total sales over the entire existence of the format, it does not come close to competing with a single movie released on regular DVD format.

So much for the consumer overwhelmingly choosing Blu ray


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sigh...

Have you compared DVD sales at the exact same point in their history? Especially considering there wasn't two competing DVD formats. (This is still a stupid war.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobukcat

ebaltz said:


> "The War is Over"
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23145734/
> 
> Doesn't the "MS" in MSNBC stand for Microsoft?


Yeah, but I think any geek at MS could tell you that the 50GB BD has been released and in use for some time now. This dingus says it will be "soon" and that data density equals improved PQ - but I guess you could consider one part of that accurate - what could be sooner than months ago?? :grin:


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> [/INDENT]
> Wow... so the total amount of Blu ray discs sold to date does not even approach a non-blockbuster DVD release.
> 
> This just confirms what I keep saying about both Blu ray and HD DVD... People want to talk about how "big" of an advantage Blu ray has over HD DVD in sales... when even if you add their total sales over the entire existence of the format, it does not come close to competing with a single movie released on regular DVD format.
> 
> So much for the consumer overwhelmingly choosing Blu ray


Did you miss this part of the quote in that post???



> When comparing this success to DVD, the results are even more impressive. The second year of DVD resulted in 230,000 players and 2M discs sold. For Blu-ray, it has resulted in 3.5M players (3.2M PS3s and 34,000 standalone players) and 2.3M Blu-ray discs sold.


----------



## DCSholtis

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23145734/



> Paul Hochman is the gear and technology editor for the TODAY Show and a "Men's Journal" magazine contributor. He covered the Olympic Games in Salt Lake City, Athens and Torino, Italy, for TODAY. He was also a three-year letter winner on the Dartmouth ski team and has a *black belt in karate*.


By the looks of that article and the fact he has a karate black belt. Sounds like he's been kicked in the head or nuts one too many times.


----------



## bobukcat

DCSholtis said:


> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23145734/
> 
> By the looks of that article and the fact he has a karate black belt. Sounds like he's been kicked in the head or nuts one too many times.


!rolling Too funny!!


----------



## elaclair

DCSholtis said:


> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23145734/
> 
> By the looks of that article and the fact he has a karate black belt. Sounds like he's been kicked in the head or nuts one too many times.


I just think he'd had one too many "belts" of that good sake' before writing the article............


----------



## Stewart Vernon

bobukcat said:


> Did you miss this part of the quote in that post???


I didn't miss any part of the post... The point I am making is that back during DVDs 2nd year in existence no one was standing on rooftops proclaiming it as the "clear winner" for consumers.

I am not at all surprised to see Blu ray or HD DVD selling at a quicker pace than DVD in its similar infancy... Back when DVD was introduced, VHS movie sales were not selling as well as DVDs are today... The own-your-own-copy-of-movies consumers were really just kicking into high gear at that time, as it was still a relatively new thing to have an affordable option to own a movie.

When VHS first started, movies were coming out at $80+ to own! DVD started at a lower price point, and gained quicker early adoption than had VHS... and now Blu ray has a lower price point than the first DVD movies, plus more people are conditioned to owning movies nowadays... so I am not surprised.

However... Back when DVD first started, I expect their sales were a higher percentage of the overall market. Whereas Blu ray and HD DVD combined are around 2% or less of the total market (when including DVD)... I don't have numbers in front of me, but I bet DVD had a higher percentage marketshare earlier.

There are more people in the consumer age-range now than when DVD was introduced... technology is more affordable proportionally... so it would be a big problem if Blu ray was not ahead of the DVD adoption curve. But having it be just a little ahead of that curve does not constitute a huge win to me.

Especially when you consider that for all the 2 or 3-1 advantage Blu ray is supposed to have over HD DVD... neither (or both combined) does not equate to more than a minor scratch in the total consumer market.

IF HD DVD waves the white flag tomorrow... Blu ray still could itself be a dead product in a year if they do not substantially increase their marketshare.


----------



## elaclair

HDMe said:


> I didn't miss any part of the post... The point I am making is that back during DVDs 2nd year in existence no one was standing on rooftops proclaiming it as the "clear winner" for consumers.


Actually, in the industry, they very much were. It's just that the general media was much less "connected" than it is today, so unless you happen to be a part of the industry, or was a consumer electronics geek, you didn't hear too much about it.



> I am not at all surprised to see Blu ray or HD DVD selling at a quicker pace than DVD in its similar infancy... Back when DVD was introduced, VHS movie sales were not selling as well as DVDs are today... The own-your-own-copy-of-movies consumers were really just kicking into high gear at that time, as it was still a relatively new thing to have an affordable option to own a movie.
> 
> When VHS first started, movies were coming out at $80+ to own! DVD started at a lower price point, and gained quicker early adoption than had VHS... and now Blu ray has a lower price point than the first DVD movies, plus more people are conditioned to owning movies nowadays... so I am not surprised.


Agreed, it's just the nature of technology, over time it gets better and cheaper.



> However... Back when DVD first started, I expect their sales were a higher percentage of the overall market. Whereas Blu ray and HD DVD combined are around 2% or less of the total market (when including DVD)... I don't have numbers in front of me, but I bet DVD had a higher percentage marketshare earlier.


Nope, the adoption curve is based on percentage, not total volume of sales. And it's because of what you state next....there are more consumers now than there were back then.



> There are more people in the consumer age-range now than when DVD was introduced... technology is more affordable proportionally... so it would be a big problem if Blu ray was not ahead of the DVD adoption curve. But having it be just a little ahead of that curve does not constitute a huge win to me.


You have to alter your thinking a little bit on this point. Whether it's a huge win or not has very little to do with today's sales. It's more about the estimate of what they can sell in the future, and the adoption curve will play a big part in their (the studios) estimation of what constitutes a "huge win".



> Especially when you consider that for all the 2 or 3-1 advantage Blu ray is supposed to have over HD DVD... neither (or both combined) does not equate to more than a minor scratch in the total consumer market.


But again, you've got to be thinking about POTENTIAL market share. It's marketing 101...doesn't always make sense, but it's where the market could go that drives the investments.



> IF HD DVD waves the white flag tomorrow... Blu ray still could itself be a dead product in a year if they do not substantially increase their marketshare.


A unified or single format can only help in that respect. Right now, unless something magic occurs, there is no VIABLE alternative on the horizon within either the short term (18 month) or the mid-term (3-5 year mark) so that's where the money is gonna go.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> [/INDENT]
> Wow... so the total amount of Blu ray discs sold to date does not even approach a non-blockbuster DVD release.
> 
> This just confirms what I keep saying about both Blu ray and HD DVD... People want to talk about how "big" of an advantage Blu ray has over HD DVD in sales... when even if you add their total sales over the entire existence of the format, it does not come close to competing with a single movie released on regular DVD format.
> 
> So much for the consumer overwhelmingly choosing Blu ray


Didn't you see, the sales are better than DVDs at this point in the life of the format. So enough already with that argument. Were you arguing that DVD wasn't important when VHS was king?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> Didn't you see, the sales are better than DVDs at this point in the life of the format. So enough already with that argument. Were you arguing that DVD wasn't important when VHS was king?


*Sigh*... what I'm saying is this is a very small point to be bragging about. I'm not refuting it as a true statement... just saying it isn't worth all the bragging.

IF the HD DVD camp were to decide to release just one blockbuster new release movie in combo format only (HD + SD) and not have an SD release for that movie... then that one movie sales alone could potentially trump the total Blu ray + HD DVD release totals to date.

That, to me, says the current "sales trend being higher than DVD at that time) is not a very big bragging point.

When one single movie release could trip the scales so completely as to render the previous release totals meaningless... that is saying alot about how much of a "win" we have going here.

And as I keep saying... this is not a bash of Blu ray exclusively... HD DVD + Blu ray doesn't make it compared to DVD sales at this point compared to the amount of money being spent by everyone involved.

I am OK with the sales numbers as an early-adoption scenario... but when people start claiming "consumers have spoken" and "Blu ray is the big winner"... I have to question what they are actually seeing, because to me BOTH formats are very much at the early-adopter stage... which means BOTH formats could be gone in a year... or both could still be going in 5 years.

Declaring a "winner" when things have just started is rather pointless.


----------



## Drew2k

ebaltz said:


> Didn't you see, the sales are better than DVDs at this point in the life of the format. So enough already with that argument. Were you arguing that DVD wasn't important when VHS was king?


Same could be said about all the HD-DVD haters and the BD "fanbois" ... enough already. You think your side won? Enough already with all the anti-HD DVD posts and put downs. Be a gracious winner.


----------



## BudShark

HDMe said:


> I am OK with the sales numbers as an early-adoption scenario... but when people start claiming "consumers have spoken" and "Blu ray is the big winner"... I have to question what they are actually seeing, because to me BOTH formats are very much at the early-adopter stage... which means BOTH formats could be gone in a year... or both could still be going in 5 years.
> 
> Declaring a "winner" when things have just started is rather pointless.


I'll agree the "numbers" are small - however - the point of comparison is two fold - not mixed into 1 as your post implies:

1) Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD. In this respect, based on studio support, sales numbers, and market momentum it appears that Blu-Ray is the winner. And with HD-DVD PRs and spin winding down, and Blu-Ray insiders touting "a couple more big announcements" on the horizon - well - declaring a winner in this comparison doesn't at all seem pointless. Leaves you open to having to come back on hands and knees begging forgiveness - but thats a risk some will take and at this point seems to be a very low risk.

2) Next gen DVD vs. DVD. This is a completely separate argument than next gen preference. And this seems to be the one you are more interested in. Will either format/any format prevail against DVDs or are DVDs sufficient for most consumers? That is the key that remains to be seen. The adoption curve *indicates* Next gen will prevail - but will it reach DVD levels before downloading/PPV pass it? That is a big unknown.

Chris


----------



## dhhaines

bobukcat said:


> Did you miss this part of the quote in that post???


 Wow... the thing about the Blu-Ray player sales on non PS3 is only 34,000, that would scare me if I was selling media. Most people don't buy a gaming machine to watch movies, it's a bonus part of the machine.

My PS2 could play DVDs but I don't think I used it more than once to watch a DVD. I guess owning a stand alone Blu-Ray player makes me in an exclusive group. I also have an HD-DVD player right next to it. (I wonder if that means one morning I'll wake up and the BD Player will have destroyed the HD-DVD player?)

BTW I also own a PS3 for gaming, and now that I think about it I've only watched 1 movie on it since it's not hooked up in my basement theater.


----------



## dhhaines

BudShark said:


> I'll agree the "numbers" are small - however - the point of comparison is two fold - not mixed into 1 as your post implies:
> 
> 1) Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD. In this respect, based on studio support, sales numbers, and market momentum it appears that Blu-Ray is the winner. And with HD-DVD PRs and spin winding down, and Blu-Ray insiders touting "a couple more big announcements" on the horizon - well - declaring a winner in this comparison doesn't at all seem pointless. Leaves you open to having to come back on hands and knees begging forgiveness - but thats a risk some will take and at this point seems to be a very low risk.
> 
> 2) Next gen DVD vs. DVD. This is a completely separate argument than next gen preference. And this seems to be the one you are more interested in. Will either format/any format prevail against DVDs or are DVDs sufficient for most consumers? That is the key that remains to be seen. The adoption curve *indicates* Next gen will prevail - but will it reach DVD levels before downloading/PPV pass it? That is a big unknown.
> 
> Chris


 The thing that going to keep HiDef disc sales down is the fact that there are alot more people who own large librarys of DVD's now compared to when DVD was overtaking VHS.

I don't think to the "average Joe" there is a big enough difference for them to upgrade their collections over from DVD. Eventually maybe, but by that time something else will be in the works which will again divide the media market.


----------



## BudShark

dhhaines said:


> The thing that going to keep HiDef disc sales down is the fact that there are alot more people who own large librarys of DVD's now compared to when DVD was overtaking VHS.
> 
> I don't think to the "average Joe" there is a big enough difference for them to upgrade their collections over from DVD. Eventually maybe, but by that time something else will be in the works which will again divide the media market.


Agreed - the plus though is the next gen players don't render the library worthless (as was the case with VHS to DVD), and those with DVD libraries have shown a tendency to "re-buy" their movies over time.

IMO, if someone is a big buyer of DVD libraries they will likely buy a next-gen player when the dust settles - buy new movies as they are released - and over time buy the next-gen movies to replenish their old supply.

The bigger issue for us is my daughter. We *know* we have to have both next-gen and classic DVD for the foreseeable future because of my wife's van. Do we buy Sleeping Beauty on DVD, Blu-Ray, or both? Oh the humanity!!!  And thus begins my campaign for "portable" Blu-Ray players... not because my daughter needs a 9" 1080P screen - but just so I don't have to buy 2 of every kids movie!

Chris


----------



## elaclair

BudShark said:


> The bigger issue for us is my daughter. We *know* we have to have both next-gen and classic DVD for the foreseeable future because of my wife's van. Do we buy Sleeping Beauty on DVD, Blu-Ray, or both? Oh the humanity!!!  And thus begins my campaign for "portable" Blu-Ray players... not because my daughter needs a 9" 1080P screen - but just so I don't have to buy 2 of every kids movie!
> 
> Chris


Hmm, I can see a big push for "fair use" ripping of HiDef DVDs to standard DVD. Though I doubt it was ever officially tracked, I wonder how much of that occurred during the DVD takeover from VHS?


----------



## ebaltz

dhhaines said:


> Wow... the thing about the Blu-Ray player sales on non PS3 is only 34,000, that would scare me if I was selling media. Most people don't buy a gaming machine to watch movies, it's a bonus part of the machine.
> 
> My PS2 could play DVDs but I don't think I used it more than once to watch a DVD. I guess owning a stand alone Blu-Ray player makes me in an exclusive group. I also have an HD-DVD player right next to it. (I wonder if that means one morning I'll wake up and the BD Player will have destroyed the HD-DVD player?)
> 
> BTW I also own a PS3 for gaming, and now that I think about it I've only watched 1 movie on it since it's not hooked up in my basement theater.


I bought my PS3 BECAUSE it played Blu-rays and AVCHDs.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

BudShark said:


> Agreed - the plus though is the next gen players don't render the library worthless (as was the case with VHS to DVD), and those with DVD libraries have shown a tendency to "re-buy" their movies over time.
> 
> IMO, if someone is a big buyer of DVD libraries they will likely buy a next-gen player when the dust settles - buy new movies as they are released - and over time buy the next-gen movies to replenish their old supply.
> 
> The bigger issue for us is my daughter. We *know* we have to have both next-gen and classic DVD for the foreseeable future because of my wife's van. Do we buy Sleeping Beauty on DVD, Blu-Ray, or both? Oh the humanity!!!  And thus begins my campaign for "portable" Blu-Ray players... not because my daughter needs a 9" 1080P screen - but just so I don't have to buy 2 of every kids movie!
> 
> Chris


Ah, the "What if..."

What if HDDVD were the leading format? Their discs can be made in a combo format so they can play at home and in the van.


----------



## dhhaines

Stuart Sweet said:


> Ah, the "What if..."
> 
> What if HDDVD were the leading format? Their discs can be made in a combo format so they can play at home and in the van.


 Of which there are still new releases. I saw a commercial just the other day for one, but I can't remember what movie it was.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Certainly true. In fact "Bee Movie" will be released next month.


----------



## dhhaines

ebaltz said:


> I bought my PS3 BECAUSE it played Blu-rays and AVCHDs.


 To each his own. Not the greatest Blu-Ray "player" out there though.


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> Ah, the "What if..."
> 
> What if HDDVD were the leading format? Their discs can be made in a combo format so they can play at home and in the van.


Actually, the same can be said for Blu-Ray...they can certainly make combo discs, it's just no studio has chosen to do so.

Has anyone besides Warner made HD-DVD combo's?


----------



## mridan

Article from USA Today on the high def battle.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/2008-02-11-netflix-blu-ray_N.htm?csp=34


----------



## Snoofie

I decided to go ahead and sell my HD-DVD's and my XBOX HD-DVD player yesterday and there is still a market for people looking for good deals on them. I already made $130 on just the movies that I've sold. I have no plans to buy a Blu Ray player anytime soon so I just won't have any HD media for a while. I'll wait until either a buy a PS3, which won't be anytime soon or the price really drops on stand alone Blu Ray players. Either way the price has to come down before I jump in the Blu Ray waters. I am going to come out just about even on my HD-DVD venture because of all the free movies I received. I should end up getting back a little more than what I paid for my player so no harm no foul.


----------



## Jason Nipp

steinmeg said:


> I have a Sony Blue Ray player, and so far I am not happy...I rent movies brand new relaeses( Brave One as an example) ..the colors are dark, and it certainly does not look any better tyhan a regulary 480P DVD...I called Sony( all in the Phillapines) and one guy tells me I need a new firmware update, another guy sdays its the movie..I give up.
> Some movies are very good, Spiderman 3 , The Black Book), but for the most part I am not happy
> 
> PS Iam waiting on the new firmware update to arrive..I doubt if this would help at all. Spoke to supervisor yesterday at Sony, and he told me it would not help at all. The player will try and give me the best picture possible(I find it is better on an older machine( non Blue Ray movie)


You can download firmware updates off the Sony website.


----------



## Jason Nipp

bobukcat said:


> What model player do you have, what kind of display is it hooked up to and how is it connected (HDMI or Component)? I've heard and read about some really poor early BD encodes buy have been lucky enough to avoid any that didn't look better than an upscaled DVD so far. I haven't seen Brave One but the only review of it at Blu-ray.com gave it good marks for video quality so maybe I'll try to get it from Netflix and see how it looks on my PS3.
> 
> In any case I certainly wouldn't expect a firmware update to improve the PQ, unless there is a bug in the VC-1 decoder and then I would expect it to affect all VC-1 movies - perhaps you could look at how those that look poor are encoded and see if that's the case??


Blu Ray will not output 1080p over Component, HDMI will and does look better with my BDP and PS3.


----------



## Jason Nipp

bobukcat said:


> For those waiting for this follow-up to what many consider the best current stand-alone player, Panny released some details today, among them:
> 
> http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=957
> 
> P.S. Yes this is from a BD site, but who should have better early information about a BD player than them??


I have always liked Panasonic. Hmm? I have some friends over there, wonder if I can grab a pre-release model..... :up_to_som


----------



## braven

I came across this today and thought I'd share. Seems to be some very good deals on HD-DVD's.

http://www.deepdiscount.com/viewcategory.htm?categoryId=476505&start=1&sortby=&count=#listtop


----------



## dhhaines

Snoofie said:


> I decided to go ahead and sell my HD-DVD's and my XBOX HD-DVD player yesterday and there is still a market for people looking for good deals on them. I already made $130 on just the movies that I've sold. I have no plans to buy a Blu Ray player anytime soon so I just won't have any HD media for a while. I'll wait until either a buy a PS3, which won't be anytime soon or the price really drops on stand alone Blu Ray players. Either way the price has to come down before I jump in the Blu Ray waters. I am going to come out just about even on my HD-DVD venture because of all the free movies I received. I should end up getting back a little more than what I paid for my player so no harm no foul.


 I guess it's a good deal if you're not interested in HiDef movies anymore. But since I have an extensive collection of movies in both BD & HD format I won't be selling off anytime soon. All studios will have to go exclusive one way or the other for me to get rid of either format.

Besides, now it seems I can up my collection faster because HD-DVDs are being discounted.


----------



## Drew2k

braven said:


> I came across this today and thought I'd share. Seems to be some very good deals on HD-DVD's.
> 
> http://www.deepdiscount.com/viewcategory.htm?categoryId=476505&start=1&sortby=&count=#listtop


I have ordered from them before - very good prices.


----------



## bobukcat

dhhaines said:


> To each his own. Not the greatest Blu-Ray "player" out there though.


Perhaps, but certainly the most bang-for-your buck BD player!


----------



## bobukcat

Jason Nipp said:


> Blu Ray will not output 1080p over Component, HDMI will and does look better with my BDP and PS3.


Jason, I don't think I understand your response.

He / she didn't state what resolution it was set for, so it could be on Component and 720P or 1080i, which is why I asked. There could be a very good explanation for the lack of PQ compared to a progressive DVD.


----------



## dhhaines

bobukcat said:


> Perhaps, but certainly the most bang-for-your buck BD player!


 Yea I guess so. But I don't let the kids "play" with my home theater.


----------



## machavez00

some much for my buying a PS3
Electronista | Sigmatek builds low-cost Blu-Ray player


----------



## Stewart Vernon

There are regular taste tests that show Coke is "better" than Pepsi or vice-versa... but both are on the shelves. Very similar product, pretty much the same consumer-base... and both thrive.

Dish and DirecTV battle in the same arena... Every day in Dish forums I see how people are threatening to leave Dish and predicting doom and gloom... then I go to the DirecTV forum and see people hating DirecTV for the same reasons, and they are threatening to leave too. Dish and DirecTV are both thriving.

Meanwhile, we have this "war" between HD DVD and Blu ray. I hardly consider it a war because neither side is trying very hard. Again people keep saying how Blu ray has "more studio support". OK, where is that support? Where are all the Blu ray movies in larger quantities than HD DVD? When I go look at the available content for Blu ray vs HD DVD, I find pretty much the same quantity of films. Exclusives on both formats, some shared as well, but not a whole lot of choice. This "studio support" isn't really helping much unless the studios actually release movies.

I also hear how Blu ray is "ahead of the DVD adoption curve".. Ok, that's fine... but it is still nowhere overall consumer acceptance. Most consumers are just now getting widescreen HDTVs... and are finding they are able to finally fully enjoy their existing DVDs that they used to watch on smaller non-widescreen displays... so the consumer who just bought his new HDTV is not immediately seeing the need to buy Blu ray or HD DVD at higher prices.

It is entirely possible that Blu ray may have "won"... which remains to be seen... but even so, if things don't change pretty quickly for Blu ray then they could quickly follow HD DVD into that good night. It may still prove out that both HD formats were too soon to market based upon where consumers are spending their dollars right now.


----------



## Jason Nipp

bobukcat said:


> Jason, I don't think I understand your response.
> 
> He / she didn't state what resolution it was set for, so it could be on Component and 720P or 1080i, which is why I asked. There could be a very good explanation for the lack of PQ compared to a progressive DVD.


Sorry cat.... Was just making an ambiguous comment that HDMI is the only BD output that can display full 1080p.


----------



## mridan

Movie studios will go blu by summer,per Lionsgate.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/13/lionsgate-president-expects-industry-to-unite-behind-blu-ray-t/


----------



## crabtrp

Everyone talks of when DVD overtook VHS. Not many people remember that there was a format war even then: DVD vs. Divx. I am sitting back enjoying this battle as I wasted a lot of time and effort 10 years ago, I was backing DVD at the time. Now who even remembers there was a disc format called Divx?


----------



## bobukcat

crabtrp said:


> Everyone talks of when DVD overtook VHS. Not many people remember that there was a format war even then: DVD vs. Divx. I am sitting back enjoying this battle as I wasted a lot of time and effort 10 years ago, I was backing DVD at the time. Now who even remembers there was a disc format called Divx?


I remember it well, but was lucky enough to avoid that mess!!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It was a good idea, but the quality was more VHS than DVD and the discs had no extras. I had a DIVX-capable player and about 20 discs at one point. They were cheap.


----------



## elaclair

Stuart Sweet said:


> It was a good idea, but the quality was more VHS than DVD and the discs had no extras. I had a DIVX-capable player and about 20 discs at one point. They were cheap.


And they actually DID "blow up" over time...<smirk>


----------



## elaclair

crabtrp said:


> Everyone talks of when DVD overtook VHS. Not many people remember that there was a format war even then: DVD vs. Divx. I am sitting back enjoying this battle as I wasted a lot of time and effort 10 years ago, I was backing DVD at the time. Now who even remembers there was a disc format called Divx?


Divx was never intended to compete with the sale of DVD. It was supposed to be an alternative for the rental market, and as such, at the time, was meant to compete with VHS mainly...and had the same video quality to boot.


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> some much for my buying a PS3
> Electronista | Sigmatek builds low-cost Blu-Ray player


For $30 more, I'll keep my BDP-S300.


----------



## BudShark

:eek2: Toshiba throwing in the white towel???

Didn't expect this soooo fast! Its an unfounded rumor - but having tabloids even post this speculation gives a strong sense of the "mood" out there.



> "An announcement is coming soon," said one source close to the HD DVD camp. "It could be a matter of weeks."


http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ib77125d96b22e86027d0bfb0c25aa58d


----------



## DCSholtis

And this:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multim...lks_About_HD_DVD_Releases_After_Mid_2008.html



> Warner Bros., a major movie studio in Hollywood, said that it would still release its movies on HD DVD format even after May 31st, 2008, when the company is supposed to start releasing movies on Blu-ray disc (BD) and DVD only and cease making HD DVD. But Warner Bros. will only launch HD DVD if there is demand.
> 
> "There may be isolated instances that an HD DVD title will be created, but as a general rule our titles will be out in SD and BD only after May 31," said Ronnee Sass, vice president of publicity and promotion, in an interview with DVDTown web-site.
> 
> Time Warner-owned studios, including Warner Bros. and New Line Cinema, announced in early January that starting from mid-2008 they would only release high-definition movies on Blu-ray discs, a competing format for HD DVD. It is also projected that Warner Bros. will cease not only to release new titles on HD DVD, but also cease manufacturing of already available HD DVD movies. *Apparently, Warner not only plans to create new HD DVD titles, but also to continue selling existing HD DVDs too.*
> *
> "If there is product available in HD DVD and there is a request from a retailer, we will provide," said Mr. Sass.*


----------



## DCSholtis

mridan said:


> Movie studios will go blu by summer,per Lionsgate.
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/13/lionsgate-president-expects-industry-to-unite-behind-blu-ray-t/


And this from a Time Warner site. Disregard anything you read there due to their built in bias.


----------



## BudShark

DCSholtis said:


> And this from a Time Warner site. Disregard anything you read there due to their built in bias.


Wait a minute... you're starting to show some true colors here. Lets see in the last week Netflix and BestBuy both announced Blu-Ray support. Big enough news that it made the headlines of CNN and MSNBC. A quick scan of the X-Bit labs headlines for the week reveal the following Next-Gen DVD articles:



> Warner Bros. Talks About HD DVD Releases After Mid-2008. Warner Bros. Plans to Release HD DVD Titles According to Demand
> 
> HD DVD Is Still Standing, The Format War Not Over Yet - Says HD DVD Promo Group. HD DVD European Promotional Group Claims HD DVD Has Bright Future
> 
> Plextor Chooses Unified High-Definition with new Blu-ray HD DVD Drives. Plextor Unveils Two Hybrid Blu-ray HD DVD Drives
> 
> Microsoft May Be Preparing Another Price-Cut for Xbox 360 HD DVD Drive. Microsoft May Lower Xbox 360 HD DVD Drive Pricing to $79


Not a word about anything negative toward HD-DVD despite 2 of the biggest announcements in the past 4 weeks. So if you are going to slam a site for being pro-Blu-Ray and tell everyone to disregard it you should be fair and note when you link to a pro-HD-DVD site.

Chris


----------



## machavez00

Mike728 said:


> For $30 more, I'll keep my BDP-S300.


1.0 or 1.1?


----------



## BudShark

machavez00 said:


> 1.0 or 1.1?


If "sanctioned" by BDA it should be 1.1 since no new players released after Nov. are supposed to be 1.1 at least. Not sure the possibilities of releasing a player without BDA support - someone else may know if BDA has the power to withold licensing, etc...

Chris


----------



## mridan

Is Toshiba about to wave the white flag?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Toshiba/Report:_Toshiba_to_Drop_HD_DVD/1468

Found another article.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents


----------



## DCSholtis

mridan said:


> Is Toshiba about to wave the white flag?
> 
> http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Toshiba/Report:_Toshiba_to_Drop_HD_DVD/1468
> 
> Found another article.
> 
> http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents


Another credible site!! NOT. Was wondering when Bill Hunt would post it.


----------



## steinmeg

bobukcat said:


> What model player do you have, what kind of display is it hooked up to and how is it connected (HDMI or Component)? I've heard and read about some really poor early BD encodes buy have been lucky enough to avoid any that didn't look better than an upscaled DVD so far. I haven't seen Brave One but the only review of it at Blu-ray.com gave it good marks for video quality so maybe I'll try to get it from Netflix and see how it looks on my PS3.
> 
> In any case I certainly wouldn't expect a firmware update to improve the PQ, unless there is a bug in the VC-1 decoder and then I would expect it to affect all VC-1 movies - perhaps you could look at how those that look poor are encoded and see if that's the case??


I have a Sony BD-301 ( a 300 with an HDMI cable)...conected via HDMI, through a Fugitsu plasma 1024 x 1024 resolution


----------



## mridan

DCSholtis said:


> Another credible site!! NOT. Was wondering when Bill Hunt would post it.


Will have to see how biased these articles are that I posted in a few weeks....


----------



## mridan

Swanni says...

http://www.tvpredictions.com/hddvd021508.htm


----------



## BudShark

I can't get to Home Media magazine (who swanni references...), but both of the other articles all reference the Hollywood Reporter article.... so buyer beware. Its a lot of steam based on one article. And swanni throwing his "weight" behind it means... well... I'm waiting for the National Enquirer first.

Anyhow - with the caution outlined - I will say I think it has merit and I agree with the logic presented by Hollywood Reporter and others. If Paramount and Universal have told Toshiba they are leaving - well letting Toshiba pull the plug saves everyone money and gives Toshiba a PR props before being completely abandoned.

Chris


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> "The War is Over"
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23145734/
> 
> Doesn't the "MS" in MSNBC stand for Microsoft?


I think if Micro$oft had thrown complete support behind HDDVD, this war would be different...marketing and advertisements on every Vista and XP on new computers, deals for HDDVD players in most machines...ect. I think Billy boy was "supporting" but not dumb enough to throw complete support behind one format.

I think this guys was desperate to make an article deadline...he is pretty much writing what has been out for weeks now.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> I bought my PS3 BECAUSE it played Blu-rays and AVCHDs.


Yeah, i bought mine primarily for the gaming, but the BR was a bonus, an i use it for both.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by bobukcat View Post
> Perhaps, but certainly the most bang-for-your buck BD player!
> 
> Yea I guess so. But I don't let the kids "play" with my home theater.


PS3 is probably the "safe" way to go as far as a BR player...plus paying that much for a BR player, might as well have a game system in it .

Not to mention, people are already finding ways to rip BR movies and put them on their PS3 hard drive...it's a tedious process right now, but will become simpler...i already have a 250 GB external on mine, ready to load up.

I got the wii for the kids (and wife) to play....ps3 games and graphics are all mine


----------



## ebaltz

Another report suggesting Toshiba is closer to dropping HD DVD.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr...ent/video/e3ib77125d96b22e8601c4db951ac47ca5d


----------



## texaswolf

dhhaines said:


> I also have an HD-DVD player right next to it. (I wonder if that means one morning I'll wake up and the BD Player will have destroyed the HD-DVD player?)


This actually happened to me...saw the PS3 stand up and started creeping towards the HDDVD player, but luckily my wife didn't have her wrist strap on her Wii "wiimote" while bowling and the remote flew and hit the PS3...all is fine now...they are separated.

I was confused, because i thought Transformers was an HDDVD exclusive:lol:


----------



## ebaltz

Reuters picks up the story...

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN1451010520080215


----------



## bonscott

ebaltz said:


> Reuters picks up the story...
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN1451010520080215


HD DVD Players soon to be at a garage sale near you.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> There are regular taste tests that show Coke is "better" than Pepsi or vice-versa... but both are on the shelves. Very similar product, pretty much the same consumer-base... and both thrive.
> 
> Dish and DirecTV battle in the same arena... Every day in Dish forums I see how people are threatening to leave Dish and predicting doom and gloom... then I go to the DirecTV forum and see people hating DirecTV for the same reasons, and they are threatening to leave too. Dish and DirecTV are both thriving.
> 
> Meanwhile, we have this "war" between HD DVD and Blu ray. I hardly consider it a war because neither side is trying very hard. Again people keep saying how Blu ray has "more studio support". OK, where is that support? Where are all the Blu ray movies in larger quantities than HD DVD? When I go look at the available content for Blu ray vs HD DVD, I find pretty much the same quantity of films. Exclusives on both formats, some shared as well, but not a whole lot of choice. This "studio support" isn't really helping much unless the studios actually release movies.
> 
> I also hear how Blu ray is "ahead of the DVD adoption curve".. Ok, that's fine... but it is still nowhere overall consumer acceptance. Most consumers are just now getting widescreen HDTVs... and are finding they are able to finally fully enjoy their existing DVDs that they used to watch on smaller non-widescreen displays... so the consumer who just bought his new HDTV is not immediately seeing the need to buy Blu ray or HD DVD at higher prices.
> 
> It is entirely possible that Blu ray may have "won"... which remains to be seen... but even so, if things don't change pretty quickly for Blu ray then they could quickly follow HD DVD into that good night. It may still prove out that both HD formats were too soon to market based upon where consumers are spending their dollars right now.


yeah, if "average joes" haven't jumped into the market with the low prices of HDDVD's...they sure as hell won't be jumping in with $400 BR players...unless they want the game play ability also...hence 3.2 million PS3's vs 34,000 stand alones....if those are the accurate numbers.


----------



## texaswolf

bonscott said:


> HD DVD Players soon to be at a garage sale near you.


no no...they are supposed to melt when the war is over, remember


----------



## BudShark

I'm thankful its gotten to this point. Some more confirmation from insiders over the past 12 hours, so the decision has definitely been made.

The best part about this is we can move on to discussing quality, releases, and the future of HD movies without getting into a pi$$ing match over who's format is better. I think this is a plus all around without commenting on who should've won. Which brings me to my last point:

I hope that as the nails go in we can avoid the HD-DVD should've won and the gloating Blu-Ray did win posts... It is what it is and we have what we have.

Chris


----------



## machavez00

BudShark said:


> I'm thankful its gotten to this point. Some more confirmation from insiders over the past 12 hours, so the decision has definitely been made.
> 
> The best part about this is we can move on to discussing quality, releases, and the future of HD movies without getting into a pi$$ing match over who's format is better. I think this is a plus all around without commenting on who should've won. Which brings me to my last point:
> 
> I hope that as the nails go in we can avoid the HD-DVD should've won and the gloating Blu-Ray did win posts... It is what it is and we have what we have.
> 
> Chris


we'll have to get a rolled up newspaper ready


----------



## ebaltz

Wal-mart goes Blu:

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9873029-7.html

Salient points:

Wrote Susan Chronister of Wal-Mart: "By June Wal-Mart will only be carrying Blu-ray movies and hardware machines, and of course standard-def movies, DVD players, and up-convert players."
"So," she continues, not mincing words, "if you bought the HD (DVD) player like me, I'd retire it to the bedroom, kid's playroom, or give it to your parents to play their John Wayne standard-def movies, and make space for a BD player..."


----------



## ebaltz

Whenever the mods want, they can take down this forum and lock it and start a new one for the discussion of Blu-ray, Blu-ray disc releases and Blu-ray players/recorders etc...


----------



## Jason Nipp

ebaltz said:


> Reuters picks up the story...
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN1451010520080215


This is just another reference to the Hollywood reporter article.

I want to see an independent article, to back this one up before I believe it.


----------



## Mike728

ebaltz said:


> Whenever the mods want, they can take down this forum and lock it and start a new one for the discussion of Blu-ray, Blu-ray disc releases and Blu-ray players/recorders etc...


I hope they keep it up. Some of us want to pick up cheap HD-DVD's during the fire sale. That link yesterday showed some real good prices. :righton:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Regardless of the Toshiba thing, the Wal-Mart thing is huge. I don't see how HD-DVD will recover.


----------



## Jason Nipp

ebaltz said:


> Wal-mart goes Blu:
> 
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9873029-7.html


Yup, secondary independant article... Like that one....


----------



## Jason Nipp

ebaltz said:


> Whenever the mods want, they can take down this forum and lock it and start a new one for the discussion of Blu-ray, Blu-ray disc releases and Blu-ray players/recorders etc...


Na, we're not going to do that until there's a funeral procession.

If you guys want a thread to discuss BD features, bug reports, or what's hot in movies, that's fine.... Same with HD-DVD.... Keep it to one thread for each camp.....

But the minute one camp invades the other and it turns into a branch of this thread we'll shut them all down for violating the wishes and warnings of Chris Blount! We may even hand out some short vacations and or permanent bans to the repeat offenders...
.
.
.
.


----------



## BudShark

Jason Nipp said:


> Na, we're not going to do that until there's a funeral procession.


C'mon now  Thats just cruel.

Its like the poor kid in the playground getting dog piled on and the teacher saying I won't stop this until he asks me too... as the bully stuffs a sock in the kids mouth... :rolling:

Chris


----------



## ebaltz

BudShark said:


> C'mon now  Thats just cruel.
> 
> Its like the poor kid in the playground getting dog piled on and the teacher saying I won't stop this until he asks me too... as the bully stuffs a sock in the kids mouth... :rolling:
> 
> Chris


+1


----------



## Jason Nipp

BudShark said:


> C'mon now  Thats just cruel.
> 
> Its like the poor kid in the playground getting dog piled on and the teacher saying I won't stop this until he asks me too... as the bully stuffs a sock in the kids mouth...


Shark...Never said who the funeral procession would be for...did I... 

The point I am trying to make is I am not going to assume the war is over, until I see an official press release from the company admitting defeat and that they are halting sales. Until then it's all hear-say and I will not base my decisions on assumptions of the press.


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> I'm thankful its gotten to this point. Some more confirmation from insiders over the past 12 hours, so the decision has definitely been made.
> 
> The best part about this is we can move on to discussing quality, releases, and the future of HD movies without getting into a pi$$ing match over who's format is better. I think this is a plus all around without commenting on who should've won. Which brings me to my last point:
> 
> I hope that as the nails go in we can avoid the HD-DVD should've won and the gloating Blu-Ray did win posts... It is what it is and we have what we have.
> 
> Chris


Not gonna happen, you forget the complaining about price, profile updates, ect. that will still be going on:nono:

Not to mention, if the war is over, does that mean there are no more HDDVD's in existence? There will still be fanboys of each...let them talk about it in here...better convo's can go in new threads.



> Originally Posted by ebaltz View Post
> Whenever the mods want, they can take down this forum and lock it and start a new one for the discussion of Blu-ray, Blu-ray disc releases and Blu-ray players/recorders etc...


Actually.....you have been free to start a Blu Ray discussion/support/review thread since the beginning


----------



## bobukcat

steinmeg said:


> I have a Sony BD-301 ( a 300 with an HDMI cable)...conected via HDMI, through a Fugitsu plasma 1024 x 1024 resolution


Cool, now I'm really curious though. Do you notice the poor quality on any particular video codec (VC-1) and not on MPEG-2 or others??


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> Actually.....you have been free to start a Blu Ray discussion/support/review thread since the beginning


Well, not entirely true. Every time a discussion was opened... It turned into a battle royale of camp invaders....and we promptly closed the discussions and handed out infractions.

I am saying now I, at least, will allow one thread for each camp, to discuss only that particular camps product and offerings....and if the other camp invades....They all get closed.

Keep in mind this is a DBS satellite website.... And there are staff members... cough cough...and owners.... that wish to keep focus on just DBS.....

If the warring continues outside of where the bosses said the warring can take place.... All topics other than DBS are at risk of being closed down.

Just a warning again.


----------



## BudShark

Jason Nipp said:


> The point I am trying to make is I am not going to assume the war is over, until I see an official press release from the company admitting defeat and that they are halting sales. Until then it's all hear-say and I will not base my decisions on assumptions of the press.



This is fun.

Quote from Teacher in the schoolyard:
I can assume there is a kid underneath that dog pile. I can also assume that he is getting the crud beat out of him based on the comments of the kids on top. But until I SEE the kid with my own eyes, I won't assume he's there and stop this massacre. 

I'm just giving you a hard time. I understand and agree with your point.

Chris


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> Well, not entirely true. Every time a discussion was opened... It turned into a battle royale of camp invaders....and we promptly closed the discussions and handed out infractions.
> 
> I am saying now I, at least, will allow one thread for each camp, to discuss only that particular camps product and offerings....and if the other camp invades....They all get closed.
> 
> Keep in mind this is a DBS satellite website.... And there are staff members... cough cough...and owners.... that wish to keep focus on just DBS.....
> 
> If the warring continues outside of where the bosses said the warring can take place.... All topics other than DBS are at risk of being closed down.
> 
> Just a warning again.


you meant there were people going into threads and bashing other people for picking a format?:eek2: .......say it aint so:lol: I have a feeling it wont take long for them to be shutdown still:nono:

How about...any bashing of people or format in a thread designed for each format will result in a boot out the door?


----------



## Jason Nipp

Shark, do you trust the press after the Bush Gore election?.... My point exactly...

If I can see it as fact with my own eyes that's one thing, but if I do not see the supporting data, I will not assume that what Billy told Jim Bob that told Vicky, that told Millard, that told Ricky Bobbie, that told his Pastor, that told a neighbor, that the end is near. :lol:


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> I have a feeling it wont take long for them to be shutdown still:nono:


And I have a feeling it won't take much for 12 violators to get banned.... :sure:


----------



## Cholly

Until Wal-Mart makes an official announcement regarding Blu-ray only, I wouldn't pay too much attention to a buyer's comments. Possible? Of course. Probable? Yup. But, then, Wal-Mart wants to make the most profitable use of their shelf space, and I'm sure that Blu is more profitable than HD DVD.

In a sense, Amazon could be the HD DVD killer, since both formats constitute only a niche market as far as DVD sales are concerned.

IMHO, it's only a matter of time before Blu-ray Disc will be the universal choice for High definition DVD's. As the owner of two Toshiba HD DVD players, I of course am disappointed. However, I'm not about to rush out and dump my existing library of HD DVD's or the players, as some here are doing. 

Meanwhile, I await next-gen Blu-ray Disc players at a reasonable price. My buess is that next-gen players will be at the $400 level for some time. This is just plain ridiculous, since the 40 gig PS3 is selling at that price point. One can only hope that the new Sony technology will be picked up quickly and result in prices in the sub $3300 range.


----------



## BubblePuppy

texaswolf said:


> you meant there were people going into threads and bashing other people for picking a format?:eek2: .......say it aint so:lol: I have a feeling it wont take long for them to be shutdown still:nono:
> 
> *How about...any bashing of people or format in a thread designed for each format will result in a boot out the door*?


I would prefer to see this than closing the thread. I always hated the "punishing the many because of the actions of the few" approach that many of us suffered in school.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jason Nipp said:


> I am saying now I, at least, will allow one thread for each camp, to discuss only that particular camps product and offerings....and if the other camp invades....They all get closed.


I stand with Jason on this. One thread per camp, and if you want to talk about the other camp in that thread, we'll have no choice but to be harsh.


----------



## Jason Nipp

BubblePuppy said:


> I would prefer to see this than closing the thread. I always hated the "punishing the many because of the actions of the few" approach that many of us suffered in school.


Re-read my last 4 posts Bubble Puppy, I said bans could be handed out. The problem is, the sites owner doesn't want 40 threads of the same fighting stuff going on, he said limit that to one thread.... And as I do not own this site I must respect the boss's wishes.


----------



## BubblePuppy

Jason Nipp said:


> Well, not entirely true. Every time a discussion was opened... It turned into a battle royale of camp invaders....and we promptly closed the discussions and handed out infractions.
> 
> I am saying now I, at least, will allow one thread for each camp, to discuss only that particular camps product and offerings....*and if the other camp invades....They all get closed.*
> Keep in mind this is a DBS satellite website.... And there are staff members... cough cough...and owners.... that wish to keep focus on just DBS.....
> 
> If the warring continues outside of where the bosses said the warring can take place.... All topics other than DBS are at risk of being closed down.
> 
> Just a warning again.


I guess this is what I fixated on.


----------



## Jason Nipp

I understand that, and I said it very deliberately. Hopefully this makes it so you police each other, and keep the peace in those threads, as so unwanted attention from staff is not attracted.

I have confidence.... although wavering confidence... that the fighters can remain behaved in at least 1 thread for each camp.

I hope I am not expecting too much... maturity goes a long way to reputation...


----------



## ebaltz

Cholly said:


> Until Wal-Mart makes an official announcement regarding Blu-ray only, I wouldn't pay too much attention to a buyer's comments. Possible? Of course. Probable? Yup. But, then, Wal-Mart wants to make the most profitable use of their shelf space, and I'm sure that Blu is more profitable than HD DVD.
> 
> In a sense, Amazon could be the HD DVD killer, since both formats constitute only a niche market as far as DVD sales are concerned.
> 
> IMHO, it's only a matter of time before Blu-ray Disc will be the universal choice for High definition DVD's. As the owner of two Toshiba HD DVD players, I of course am disappointed. However, I'm not about to rush out and dump my existing library of HD DVD's or the players, as some here are doing.
> 
> Meanwhile, I await next-gen Blu-ray Disc players at a reasonable price. My buess is that next-gen players will be at the $400 level for some time. This is just plain ridiculous, since the 40 gig PS3 is selling at that price point. One can only hope that the new Sony technology will be picked up quickly and result in prices in the sub $3300 range.


It's official and being reported everywhere:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/15/technology/wal-mart_blu-ray/index.htm?postversion=2008021511

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/15/wal-mart-to-officially-discontinue-hd-dvd-sales-by-june/


----------



## Jason Nipp

So what's the next war?

Blu verses IPTV?


----------



## Drew2k

Mike728 said:


> I hope they keep it up. Some of us want to pick up cheap HD-DVD's during the fire sale. That link yesterday showed some real good prices. :righton:


This is what I'm looking for ...

There are dozens of HD-DVD movies I'd pick up on the "going out of business" sale.


----------



## BudShark

Jason Nipp said:


> So what's the next war?
> 
> Blu verses IPTV?


Ding ding ding... The link in the middle of the CNN Money article was for Blu vs. Apple TV. So its already starting... (well it has been, it was just out-yelled by the Blu vs HD-DVD crowds)

I don't know... theres a large contingent of movie "buffs" that collect movies and download only won't work for them (but then again, people use to collect vinyl...)

Chris


----------



## mridan

ebaltz said:


> It's official and being reported everywhere:
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/15/technology/wal-mart_blu-ray/index.htm?postversion=2008021511
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/15/wal-mart-to-officially-discontinue-hd-dvd-sales-by-june/


With all this bad press I can't imagine Toshiba waiting a few more weeks to admit defeat.


----------



## ebaltz

In case some still don't want to accept it, here is a link to the official Wal-Mart press release:

http://www.walmartfacts.com/articles/5673.aspx


----------



## elaclair

Certainly just rumor, but an interesting one.....I've read on a couple of sites that an "olive branch" may be offered to those who bought a second or third generation Toshiba HD-DVD player in the form of a trade-in allowance towards the purchase of a stand-alone Blu-Ray player. So I wouldn't e-bay or garage sale your player just yet.....


----------



## Jason Nipp

elaclair said:


> Certainly just rumor, but an interesting one.....I've read on a couple of sites that an "olive branch" may be offered to those who bought a second or third generation Toshiba HD-DVD player in the form of a trade-in allowance towards the purchase of a stand-alone Blu-Ray player. So I wouldn't e-bay or garage sale your player just yet.....


Interesting concept, I hope it does happen for the HD-DVD guys that want out, but I have seen rumors like this many times and that's all they ever turned out to be...rumors..


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK, the dust has settled (for now). Let's try this. You will see there are now five threads. If you don't use them for the right purpose, we'll probably have to go back to just one...

*
[*]HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray:* This is the only place that discussion of the "format war" will continue. 
*HD-DVD Great Found Deals* and *Blu-Ray Great Found Deals:* Let those who share your choice of format know where the best stuff is at. Nothing else.
*HD-DVD Tech Talk* and *Blu-Ray Tech Talk: * Discussion about players and technical aspects of discs only.

If you want to discuss a particular movie, please open a thread for it.

Let's try this, folks. If we can all play nice then it could be a lot of fun.


----------



## ebaltz

Well I can save you some mod time. Complete discussion under the HD DVD forum:

<START OF FORUM>

Does anyone know where I can still by HD DVD players or movies?

No.​
<END OF FORUM>


----------



## Drew2k

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK, the dust has settled (for now). Let's try this. You will see there are now five threads. If you don't use them for the right purpose, we'll probably have to go back to just one...
> 
> *HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray:* This is the only place that discussion of the "format war" will continue.
> *HD-DVD Great Found Deals* and *Blu-Ray Great Found Deals:* Let those who share your choice of format know where the best stuff is at. Nothing else.
> *HD-DVD Tech Talk* and *Blu-Ray Tech Talk: * Discussion about players and technical aspects of discs only.
> If you want to discuss a particular movie, please open a thread for it.
> 
> Let's try this, folks. If we can all play nice then it could be a lot of fun.


Thanks Stuart. Hopefully the haters (on each side) will just steer clear of the thread for the other format, or if they venture in, everyone will be big boys and girls and "play nice".


----------



## RAD

Jason Nipp said:


> So what's the next war?
> 
> Blu verses IPTV?


Unless someone puts REALLY BIG internet connections into the home IPTV isn't going to fly if you have to wait hours to download 1080p content, IMHO.


----------



## Jason Nipp

RAD said:


> Unless someone puts REALLY BIG Internet connections into the home IPTV isn't going to fly if you have to wait hours to download 1080p content, IMHO.


Actually...I agree. It can take all day to download on IPTV event I want to watch. Then it expired in 7 days unwatched, 24 hours if I start to watch it. Then if you still want to watch it again, you need to download it again. My 5MB connection just isn't good enough.


----------



## BudShark

RAD said:


> Unless someone puts REALLY BIG internet connections into the home IPTV isn't going to fly if you have to wait hours to download 1080p content, IMHO.


I agree for 1080P - but 720P seems to be working well TODAY for Apple TV according to the reports I've seen. 15 mins to start, 1 hour for a typical download on a cable/faster DSL connection doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me.

So if we assume a 3 year adoption curve for Blu at this point - I would think it would be safe to assume in 3 years that 720P downloads would be a no brainer and 1080P would be working well for "power users" with 1080P TVs.

Chris


----------



## Tom Robertson

ebaltz said:


> In case some still don't want to accept it, here is a link to the official Wal-Mart press release:
> 
> http://www.walmartfacts.com/articles/5673.aspx


Being the diligent moderator and unfamiliar with walmartfacts.com, I confirmed that walmartfacts.com is linked on the walmart site, and the press release is there. As a press release can be quoted in full, I also include that here:


> Wal-Mart Moving Exclusively Toward Blu-ray Format Movies and Players
> Last Updated: Friday, February 15, 2008
> Bentonville, Ark., Feb. 15, 2008 - Wal-Mart Stores, U.S. today announces that its 4,000 Wal-Mart and Sam's Club stores will move forward this year with one hi-definition movie and hardware format: Blu-ray. The change will take place quickly over the next several months whereby the retailer will phase out HD DVD offerings and reorganize shelf space. By June, Wal-Mart stores, Sam's Clubs, www.walmart.com and www.samsclub.com will offer only Blu-ray movies and hardware machines, as well as standard definition movies and DVD players, and up converts.
> 
> "We've listened to our customers, who are showing a clear preference toward Blu-ray products and movies with their purchases," said Gary Severson, senior vice president, Home Entertainment, Wal-Mart, U.S. "With the customers best interest in all we do, we wanted to share our decision and timeline with them as soon as possible, knowing it will help simplify their purchase decision, increase selection, and increase adoption long term. We anticipate enhancing our selection with continued great values in hi-definition Blu-ray products, so our customers can further enhance their entertainment experience at home."
> 
> Wal-Mart will continue to sell through remaining HD DVD product, but in less than 30 days customers will see a more predominant move toward Blu-ray in stores, clubs and online. As the nation's largest retailer, Wal-Mart thoughtfully reviewed all areas and impact in making its decision, and is excited to move forward with one format and share its future plans with customers.


Thanks ebaltz for your original post with link. (I didn't doubt you, btw, I was just unfamiliar with that site until now.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## tomcrown1

It is Done Toshiba will stop the sales of HDDVD the war is over Blue Ray has won!!!

Here is the link to the airtcle in PC Magazine

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2261128,00.asp

You have to read the airtcle to see if this tread should close


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Again this links back to the Hollywood Reporter story.


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> So what's the next war?
> 
> Blu verses IPTV?


Blu Ray vs the Pirates.....once it becomes the "main" HD movies format.

It's already being cracked and saved on hard drives....just like DVD, you will see people rent & rip, rent & rip....this ought to cause Sony and the BDA to spend more an more money on protection, keeping the cost of players up.


----------



## FogCutter

WalMart settled the format war.

On to the United Nations . . .


----------



## machavez00

I for one will be disappointed if the HD DVD plug has been pulled. I was looking forward to the "Godfather", "Star Trek", and "Indiana Jones" HD DVDs.


----------



## texaswolf

FogCutter said:


> WalMart settled the format war.
> 
> On to the United Nations . . .


The PS3 settled the format war


----------



## DBS Commando

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080215/tc_nm/walmart_dvd_dc;_ylt=AlGOvXolV97BG_i58XG8yyEjtBAF

More confirmation. How long will it be before Paramount moves back to Blu Ray?


----------



## braven

DBS Commando said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080215/tc_nm/walmart_dvd_dc;_ylt=AlGOvXolV97BG_i58XG8yyEjtBAF
> 
> More confirmation. How long will it be before Paramount moves back to Blu Ray?


Hopefully sooner than later.


----------



## mridan

machavez00 said:


> I for one will be disappointed if the HD DVD plug has been pulled. I was looking forward to the "Godfather", "Star Trek", and "Indiana Jones" HD DVDs.


I'm looking foward to seeing them on Blu-Ray.


----------



## texaswolf

mridan said:


> I'm looking foward to seeing them on Blu-Ray.


People been looking forward to the Matrix trilogy on Blu for almost a year now...hopefully now studios will get off their a$$ and put all these movies out.


----------



## apexmi

texaswolf said:


> The PS3 settled the format war


I think it was actually the day Warner cashed the $500,000,000 check and it cleared


----------



## DBS Commando

They were paid $500 million to go to Blu Ray? WOW


----------



## mridan

texaswolf said:


> People been looking forward to the Matrix trilogy on Blu for almost a year now...hopefully now studios will get off their a$$ and put all these movies out.


I'm sure by summer Matrix will be out on Blu-Ray,I can't wait!


----------



## Tom Robertson

DBS Commando said:


> apexmi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was actually the day Warner cashed the $500,000,000 check and it cleared
> 
> 
> 
> They were paid $500 million to go to Blu Ray? WOW
Click to expand...

Very unsubstantiated rumor that any money exchanged hands.


----------



## Drew2k

Tom Robertson said:


> Very unsubstantiated rumor that any money exchanged hands.


Are hands ever involved in wire transfers?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Drew2k said:


> Are hands ever involved in wire transfers?


Yes, someone has to type in my account number to transfer to. (And they keep messing it up!)


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> In case some still don't want to accept it, here is a link to the official Wal-Mart press release:
> 
> http://www.walmartfacts.com/articles/5673.aspx


Hey....I thought you said Wal-mart doesn't sell quality things?



> I think it was actually the day Warner cashed the $500,000,000 check and it cleared


lol...HOLY CRAP...that a lot of mula...Did Sony have to take out another loan for that?....j/k:lol:


----------



## Drew2k

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, someone has to type in my account number to transfer to. (And they keep messing it up!)


I just use the mouse ... with my elbows. Yeah, that's it! 

(I guess I can never win that one!) :lol:


----------



## dbooth

sony may have paid 500 mil but thin of the royalties they will recieve once Blu wins out pales in comparasion.


----------



## texaswolf

dbooth said:


> sony may have paid 500 mil but thin of the royalties they will recieve once Blu wins out pales in comparasion.


the royalties that will go to pay off the massive loan they took out for to make the PS3?


----------



## BudShark

I love these drive by rumor drops... and then they just spin out of control.

In 15 years when we are talking about the successor to Blu-Ray and the ensuing battle, someone will ask what caused Blu-Ray to win... by then the rumors will have taken on a sense of fact:

"1 Quadrillion Dollars and Sharks with fricken laser beams... thats why Warner choose Blu-Ray and effectively ended the battle."

"No its not... I heard it was when Wal-Mart signed up 3 billion Chinese kids to work in sweatshops manufacturing Blu-Ray players and making copies of Blu-Ray movies so they would sell for $1.50"



Chris


----------



## lisakson

I just want this whole Blue-Ray/HD-DVD war to finally have a winner... Going through the VHS/Beta war was bad enough. Until then, I will just hold on to the $$$$..(-:


----------



## Tom Robertson

I've been in that exact same position, lisakson. By now, I would likely have two players and MANY movies if not for this war.

Now that the war appears to be nearing the end game (or already in it, depending on the backroom discussions) I'll get Oppo's Blu-ray player the moment they announce it. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> I love these drive by rumor drops... and then they just spin out of control.
> 
> In 15 years when we are talking about the successor to Blu-Ray and the ensuing battle, someone will ask what caused Blu-Ray to win... by then the rumors will have taken on a sense of fact:
> 
> "1 Quadrillion Dollars and Sharks with fricken laser beams... thats why Warner choose Blu-Ray and effectively ended the battle."
> 
> "No its not... I heard it was when Wal-Mart signed up 3 billion Chinese kids to work in sweatshops manufacturing Blu-Ray players and making copies of Blu-Ray movies so they would sell for $1.50"
> 
> 
> 
> Chris


Yeah..but as long as you don't buy into them, they can be fun to make fun of:lol:

Now i had heard about the Quadzillion dollars...but are you telling me they actually got fricken sharks with fricken laser beams attached to their fricken heads?!?........WOW!


----------



## texaswolf

lisakson said:


> I just want this whole Blue-Ray/HD-DVD war to finally have a winner... Going through the VHS/Beta war was bad enough. Until then, I will just hold on to the $$$$..(-:


i just went ahead and found both on great deals, and have been enjoying any movie in high def.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Texaswolf, what are you doing buying both VHS and Beta right now?


----------



## lisakson

texaswolf said:


> i just went ahead and found both on great deals, and have been enjoying any movie in high def.


Yea, it not like I have not considered that. But I think for right now, I will just enjoy the HDPPV's


----------



## texaswolf

Tom Robertson said:


> Texaswolf, what are you doing buying both VHS and Beta right now?


lol...what can i say...i'm a die hard:lol:


----------



## texaswolf

lisakson said:


> Yea, it not like I have not considered that. But I think for right now, I will just enjoy the HDPPV's


oh yeah...had it not been for the external option with E*, i may have a lot more movies on disc...now, i only have the "top quality" (IMO) graphic movies that i like....i view the rest of HD movies on Premiums and HD PPV....if they look good on those, i know they will look even better on disc.


----------



## BudShark

Note the color of said Shark with Fricken Laser Beam


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> Note the color of said Shark with Fricken Laser Beam


!rolling .....man BDA sure did shell out some cash!!!


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> The PS3 settled the format war


Can there be any doubt it was the most influencial part of the puzzle?? I guess some would argue it was the studio support that was "purchased" by the BDA - but I don't think that would have been enough if every 360 had shipped with an HD-DVD drive. As I've said before, it was a huge gamble for Sony but it looks like it's paying off!


----------



## Sirshagg

:lol:


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> Can there be any doubt it was the most influencial part of the puzzle?? I guess some would argue it was the studio support that was "purchased" by the BDA - but I don't think that would have been enough if every 360 had shipped with an HD-DVD drive. As I've said before, it was a huge gamble for Sony but it looks like it's paying off!


Defiantly....like i said before...had Microsoft been *fully* behind HDDVD, you would have seen a player in every 360, and possibly most pc's.....but I guess they weren't taking the chance of losing even more money than they are on every console sold, like Sony did.

Whether or not it "pays off" for Sony...i don't know...i guess you would have to compare the numbers from the loan they took out to make the PS3, the money they have lost on each ps3 and any payoffs (if true) vs. royalties that they get back from BR products....those are numbers we will never see truthfully....but i would think it's gonna take awhile for it to pay off the gamble.


----------



## Brandon428

Now at this point in time it would be completely stupid for Sony to incorporate HD DVD playback functionality when they have HD DVD on the run,but technically the PS3 is fully capable of playing HD DVD. Heres a link that says how. http://www.voodish.co.uk/articles/can-the-ps3-really-play-hd-dvds/

Once the format war is over perhaps a firmware upgrade can make this a reality.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Yeah..but as long as you don't buy into them, they can be fun to make fun of:lol:
> 
> Now i had heard about the Quadzillion dollars...but are you telling me they actually got fricken sharks with fricken laser beams attached to their fricken heads?!?........WOW!


Ill-tempered sea bass.


----------



## Chris Blount

I said this before. Even though the format is dead, my purchased HD-DVD's still work and look great. The Toshiba A-35 also makes one hell of an up-converting player. 

The format is dying but I'm still on board. 

The only difference now is that my PS3 will get more of a workout.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Ill-tempered sea bass.


not as big off a pay off, but they are nasty little suckers:lol:


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I do find it interesting how the spin machines work... and Texaswolf called it... back when folks were bashing Wal-Mart as being sub-par quality products for lesser people... and some of us were defending Wal-Mart... now some of the same folks are proud to have Wal-Mart backing Blu ray?

I'm confused too... if Wal-Mart was bad when they seemed to support HD DVD, shouldn't they be just as bad now?

On a related note...

I don't have a link, but I was reading on Satellite Guys where someone else was quoting an article from EngadgetHD wherein they said they were putting HD DVD on a death watch. The ironic part was in the same quote they mentioned putting TiVo on death watch back in 2005... so, as far as death watches go, if HD DVD gets another 3 years on death row that could be some good movie watching!


----------



## Sirshagg

HDMe said:


> I do find it interesting how the spin machines work... and Texaswolf called it... back when folks were bashing Wal-Mart as being sub-par quality products for lesser people... and some of us were defending Wal-Mart... now some of the same folks are proud to have Wal-Mart backing Blu ray?
> 
> I'm confused too... if Wal-Mart was bad when they seemed to support HD DVD, shouldn't they be just as bad now?
> 
> On a related note...
> 
> I don't have a link, but I was reading on Satellite Guys where someone else was quoting an article from EngadgetHD wherein they said they were putting HD DVD on a death watch. The ironic part was in the same quote they mentioned putting TiVo on death watch back in 2005... so, as far as death watches go, if HD DVD gets another 3 years on death row that could be some good movie watching!


Toshiba will throw in the towel before June/08


----------



## texaswolf

Chris Blount said:


> I said this before. Even though the format is dead, my purchased HD-DVD's still work and look great. The Toshiba A-35 also makes one hell of an up-converting player.
> 
> The format is dying but I'm still on board.
> 
> The only difference now is that my PS3 will get more of a workout.


yeah same here....I will still be using the A2 for regular DVD's...it just plain does a better job of upconverting them than my ps3...plus the PS3 is getting plenty of work from other videos, music, and gaming...it will need the rest...


----------



## texaswolf

Sirshagg said:


> Toshiba will throw in the towel before June/08


Maybe Toshiba will start making $99-$159 Blu Ray players...then the consumer still might have a shot at winning


----------



## Sirshagg

texaswolf said:


> Maybe Toshiba will start making $99-$159 Blu Ray players...then the consumer still might have a shot at winning


Now that wouldbe nice.


----------



## BudShark

Sirshagg said:


> :lol:


Now we know where the HD-DVD PR machine has been focusing their attention! :rolling: 

Chris


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I don't actually have anything against Sony... although I do recognize their poor track record with new formats for various techie things.

My audio receiver is a Sony... and I've been very happy with it.

That said... IF HD DVD dies... and one day Blu ray is the thing to have, and it is cheap enough for me to buy into... I would look first for a Toshiba model. I have 2 Toshiba TVs, numerous DVD players, my HD DVD player, a laptop, and probably a few things I'm forgetting.. and Toshiba technology has been very good to me over the years.


----------



## apexmi

texaswolf said:


> Hey....I thought you said Wal-mart doesn't sell quality things?
> 
> lol...HOLY CRAP...that a lot of mula...Did Sony have to take out another loan for that?....j/k:lol:


He did say that before, didn't he :lol:


----------



## machavez00

> But she hinted *that something's in the air*. "Given the market developments in the past month," she said, "Toshiba will continue to study the market impact and the value proposition for consumers, particularly in light of our recent price reductions on all HD DVD players."


Hmm, magic firmware upgrade that turns HD DVD players in to profile 2.0 BD players?


----------



## DCSholtis

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the first profile 2.0 BD players turned out to be former HD DVD players. :lol:


----------



## elaclair

HDMe said:


> I do find it interesting how the spin machines work... and Texaswolf called it... back when folks were bashing Wal-Mart as being sub-par quality products for lesser people... and some of us were defending Wal-Mart... now some of the same folks are proud to have Wal-Mart backing Blu ray?
> 
> I'm confused too... if Wal-Mart was bad when they seemed to support HD DVD, shouldn't they be just as bad now?


Actually I think there was just one person bashing Wal-Mart....just very vocal about it. :nono2:


----------



## elaclair

texaswolf said:


> Maybe Toshiba will start making $99-$159 Blu Ray players...then the consumer still might have a shot at winning


It been hinted that Toshiba has at least two models in the works already. Don't know if they're for the home market, but even if they are, there's no doubt they would eventually make it over here.

I really like the two Tosh DVD players I have, and would consider a Blu-Ray player from them....as long as it beats out the upcoming Panny BD-50 .


----------



## dhhaines

texaswolf said:


> Defiantly....like i said before...had Microsoft been *fully* behind HDDVD, you would have seen a player in every 360, and possibly most pc's.....but I guess they weren't taking the chance of losing even more money than they are on every console sold, like Sony did.
> 
> Whether or not it "pays off" for Sony...i don't know...i guess you would have to compare the numbers from the loan they took out to make the PS3, the money they have lost on each ps3 and any payoffs (if true) vs. royalties that they get back from BR products....those are numbers we will never see truthfully....but i would think it's gonna take awhile for it to pay off the gamble.


 I still have a hard time believing the story that Sony or any other company for that matter ever puts anything out in the market that loses them money. IMHO it's alot of creative accounting to get people to believe that they're "being consumer Friendly" by being all around nice guys and giving away the store.:nono2:


----------



## ebaltz

elaclair said:


> Actually I think there was just one person bashing Wal-Mart....just very vocal about it. :nono2:


I think you missed the point, but that doesn't surprise me. The point was people who expect DVD players, of any kind to be around $100, I don't get that and the "I buy my $100 DVD player at Wal-mart to attach to my 60'' Plasma that cost $5000. When you brag about Toshiba selling $100 HD DVD players at Walmart and say that will win you the war. They practically gave them away and it didn't make a dent. My point was that people wanted quality. Walmart isn't going to sell Blu-ray at $100 because they don't have to give them away, they are quality items that are worth $400. They know people will buy them and that they can make a profit, more than selling the cheap Toshibas. That was the point. Quality over cheap. Even Walmart figured it out. I guess some won't ever. But enjoy your cheap HD DVD players and the movies you already have for them.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> Maybe Toshiba will start making $99-$159 Blu Ray players...then the consumer still might have a shot at winning


So the consumer only wins when you get something for nothing and a product for $100? How much did you pay for your TV? How much for your receiver? How much for your speakers? That argument is so tired. If someone can't afford a $300 + Blu-ray player, then they certainly shouldn't have been able to afford a $2000 HDTV or audio system to go with it. So if you can't afford that, you don't deserve one. Maybe we should have the government hand them out. They aren't a right, they are a privilege. WHen HDTVs cost $200 then I will say $100 hi def players are about right. And remember what DVD players, and VHS players cost for that matter early in their development. My first 4-head CHS player cost $400, and guess who made it, Toshiba. In todays dollars that would be about $1000. So a $400 BD player is a steal.


----------



## chris0

texaswolf said:


> Maybe Toshiba will start making $99-$159 Blu Ray players...then the consumer still might have a shot at winning


I wouldn't count on any new Toshiba BD players being that cheap, at least not in the beginning. When I bought my A35 back in September or so I paid almost $500 for it. Now it can be had for less than half of that, brand new. Pretty much all of the HD DVD players are half of what they were just a few months ago. I doubt production costs have decreased that much.

It seems likely, to me anyway, that Toshiba was either making very, very little on players as of late or possibly even taking a loss on each one. This was done no doubt in a effort to win the "war." If they do indeed abandon HD DVD and start making BD players they're going to need to recoup lots of money, and continuing to give players away at razor thin or negative margins isn't going to do it. When (if) they introduce a BD player it will be competitively priced with newer BD players from the other manufacturers. Prices will come down, but it'll be more on the pace of HDTVs, receivers and computers.

Tangentially, I'm glad there are so many other manufacturers on the BD side in comparison to just Toshiba on the HD DVD side. People complain about studios and the BDA forcing the consumers hand in what to buy, talking about corporations making the decision for the consumer. When I wanted an HD DVD player I was forced to buy Toshiba, there was no freedom of choice there. I had some problems with an A30 first and then with the A35 I exchanged it for. Firmware updates later fixed the problems, but if there had been another manufacturer of HD DVD players I would've tried them.

BTW, if anyone does have an A35 and is using it with a display capable of displaying (not accepting, but actually displaying) 24fps or a 24fps multiple you may want to hold off on the 2.0 FW update. Many over at AVSForums are reporting that it introduces jaggies at 1080p/24 that weren't there with FW v. 1.3.

[About the use of "tangentially"...I typed that paragraph and then edited the first part several times trying to tie the paragraph to the first two properly. It was the only way I could manage that. Besides, I can't remember the last time I saw anyone use it and it's a good word. ]


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> But again, you enjoy your Wal-mart and K-mart toys, I'll stick with Sony and Pioneer and the like any day.


This is from the way-back machine... but roughly a month ago in this very thread. Sounds to me very much like Wal-Mart bashing... and a strong implication that Sony and Pioneer are better than Wal-mart "toys".

I just find it highly ironic that the same people making fun of Wal-Mart very recently are running to hug them now.

I defended Wal-mart then... and I'd defend them now. Not so much because of their recent decision on Blu ray, but because I don't automatically think of Wal-mart or customers who shop there as somehow less than anyone else.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

DCSholtis said:


> Wouldn't it be hilarious if the first profile 2.0 BD players turned out to be former HD DVD players. :lol:


It would be kind of amusing. Actually, it would be kind of interesting... I'd have to know a lot more about the hardware than I do... but I've not been sure what exactly made combo players combo players. Do they have different drives in them than HD DVD or Blu ray? Or do they just have more firmware inside to process the different formats?

But I wouldn't hold my breath on thinking this would happen. I've been a staunch fence-sitter really... and only have HD DVD because of the sales... and once I had the player buying movies was a no-brainer. Unless and until I could get a Blu ray OR a combo player for the same or less than I paid for HD DVD... I can go back to sitting on the fence.

Nothing personal against Sony or Blu ray... but I had a price-point in mind, and they aren't there yet.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> I think you missed the point, but that doesn't surprise me. The point was people who expect DVD players, of any kind to be around $100, I don't get that and the "I buy my $100 DVD player at Wal-mart to attach to my 60'' Plasma that cost $5000. When you brag about Toshiba selling $100 HD DVD players at Walmart and say that will win you the war.


This is the inherent difference between the early adopters and the mass market.

Early adopters spend more, and are ok with doing so. Someone who spent upwards of $5000 on his plasma wouldn't bat an eye at a $500+ HD DVD or Blu ray player... and plenty were sold at those prices to early adopters.

BUT... most consumers will not pay that.

Consumers didn't start to really dip into HDTV sets until you could find them less than $1500... many good ones less than $1000 now... and those people are not going to spend half as much as they spent on a TV on a Blu ray or HD DVD player. Those people are going to wait for the $100-$150 player.

IF the market remains consisting of only the early adopters, then the market will not be viable. The early adopters keep things afloat until the prices come down for mass market consumption.

Would you pay $100 per month for high speed internet access for a computer that you only spent $500 on? I doubt it.


----------



## elaclair

ebaltz said:


> I think you missed the point, but that doesn't surprise me. The point was people who expect DVD players, of any kind to be around $100, I don't get that and the "I buy my $100 DVD player at Wal-mart to attach to my 60'' Plasma that cost $5000. When you brag about Toshiba selling $100 HD DVD players at Walmart and say that will win you the war. They practically gave them away and it didn't make a dent. My point was that people wanted quality. Walmart isn't going to sell Blu-ray at $100 because they don't have to give them away, they are quality items that are worth $400. They know people will buy them and that they can make a profit, more than selling the cheap Toshibas. That was the point. Quality over cheap. Even Walmart figured it out. I guess some won't ever. But enjoy your cheap HD DVD players and the movies you already have for them.


Not at all, and thank you for very much proving the validity of my point. And if I've lost you, just go back and re-read this thread.....all 90 pages


----------



## DCSholtis

Actually Walmart "figured it out" with help from $ony's checkbook.....once again.


----------



## chris0

DCSholtis said:


> Actually Walmart "figured it out" with help from $ony's checkbook.....once again.


I've seen no reports that Walmart took money from anyone in regards to this. Are you assuming that everyone that drops HD DVD took money from Sony?


----------



## elaclair

HDMe said:


> This is from the way-back machine... but roughly a month ago in this very thread. Sounds to me very much like Wal-Mart bashing... and a strong implication that Sony and Pioneer are better than Wal-mart "toys".
> 
> I just find it highly ironic that the same people making fun of Wal-Mart very recently are running to hug them now.
> 
> I defended Wal-mart then... and I'd defend them now. Not so much because of their recent decision on Blu ray, but because I don't automatically think of Wal-mart or customers who shop there as somehow less than anyone else.


I probably have more history with Wal-Mart than almost everyone here, and I will always support them, as I have since I first shopped at store #3. I was there for the groundbreaking of store #4.........and all walks of life shop there. How else could they end up the #1 retailer in the world? Oh, and to keep it generally on-topic, they've got great prices on both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies....


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> So the consumer only wins when you get something for nothing and a product for $100? How much did you pay for your TV? How much for your receiver? How much for your speakers? That argument is so tired. If someone can't afford a $300 + Blu-ray player, then they certainly shouldn't have been able to afford a $2000 HDTV or audio system to go with it. So if you can't afford that, you don't deserve one. Maybe we should have the government hand them out. They aren't a right, they are a privilege. WHen HDTVs cost $200 then I will say $100 hi def players are about right. And remember what DVD players, and VHS players cost for that matter early in their development. My first 4-head CHS player cost $400, and guess who made it, Toshiba. In todays dollars that would be about $1000. So a $400 BD player is a steal.


See this is the problem with your logic...your still thinking back in the 1980's or high school....where more expensive means better. Welcome to today...where sites continuously let people know when there are deals and steals on things. Since you did ask:

I got my:

Sammy 56" for $1250 (amazon) on a great sale.
HDDVD for $99 on sale. (best buy)
PS3 40 gb $359 on sale...sold it got a new ps3 20gb (for backward comp) for $399 on a sale. (amazon, ebay)
Sony receiver for $99 on sale (best buy)

I hardly ever, ever pay full price for any electronic....not in this day and age.
So i guess like you said...maybe I dont _deserve_ to have a high def player...since i refuse to pay those prices...but think about this...while your posting to BR's rescue, and glory, and waiting for certain releases...i'm sitting at home enjoying *BOTH* formats, and all releases...for almost the price of one full price "quality" player.

Maybe if it wasn't for the people paying full price for these things...they may be forced to lower them.

oh and by the way...the cheap toshiba, looks just as good as the ps3...except when upconverting DVD's, then the cheapy actually looks better


----------



## ebaltz

chris0 said:


> I've seen no reports that Walmart took money from anyone in regards to this. Are you assuming that everyone that drops HD DVD took money from Sony?


Of course, that is the FUD they love to spread. Rather than accept defeat and the shortcomings of their format and lack of support, they make up stories and conspiracies--the crutch of the feeble minded.


----------



## ebaltz

DCSholtis said:


> Actually Walmart "figured it out" with help from $ony's checkbook.....once again.


So outright lies are permitted on this board I see. Okay so Toshiba's executives have been sleeping with sea turtles and molesting tree frogs. Oh and HD DVD players explode after 10 hours of service and cause house fires and cancer.


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> This is the inherent difference between the early adopters and the mass market.
> 
> Early adopters spend more, and are ok with doing so. Someone who spent upwards of $5000 on his plasma wouldn't bat an eye at a $500+ HD DVD or Blu ray player... and plenty were sold at those prices to early adopters.
> 
> BUT... most consumers will not pay that.
> 
> Consumers didn't start to really dip into HDTV sets until you could find them less than $1500... many good ones less than $1000 now... and those people are not going to spend half as much as they spent on a TV on a Blu ray or HD DVD player. Those people are going to wait for the $100-$150 player.
> 
> IF the market remains consisting of only the early adopters, then the market will not be viable. The early adopters keep things afloat until the prices come down for mass market consumption.
> 
> Would you pay $100 per month for high speed internet access for a computer that you only spent $500 on? I doubt it.


Then how come Apple did so well selling cell phones called iPhones, with features one could get for about $50 for $500? Answer me that one then Mr. Marketing 101.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> See this is the problem with your logic...your still thinking back in the 1980's or high school....where more expensive means better. Welcome to today...where sites continuously let people know when there are deals and steals on things. Since you did ask:
> 
> I got my:
> 
> Sammy 56" for $1250 (amazon) on a great sale.
> HDDVD for $99 on sale. (best buy)
> PS3 40 gb $359 on sale...sold it got a new ps3 20gb (for backward comp) for $399 on a sale. (amazon, ebay)
> Sony receiver for $99 on sale (best buy)
> 
> I hardly ever, ever pay full price for any electronic....not in this day and age.
> So i guess like you said...maybe I dont _deserve_ to have a high def player...since i refuse to pay those prices...but think about this...while your posting to BR's rescue, and glory, and waiting for certain releases...i'm sitting at home enjoying *BOTH* formats, and all releases...for almost the price of one full price "quality" player.
> 
> Maybe if it wasn't for the people paying full price for these things...they may be forced to lower them.
> 
> oh and by the way...the cheap toshiba, looks just as good as the ps3...except when upconverting DVD's, then the cheapy actually looks better


So you are saying you are cheap, er um thrifty. Good for you. But cheaper doesn't mean "better" either. It means, cheaper. You get what you pay for.


----------



## chris0

It took a while for me to type but as soon as I submitted my post and saw it was after two of ebaltz's posts I knew it would get overlooked. I thought I made some valid points, too. Oh well.



chris0 said:


> I've seen no reports that Walmart took money from anyone in regards to this. Are you assuming that everyone that drops HD DVD tookmoney from Sony?
> 
> 
> ebaltz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, that is the FUD they love to spread. Rather than accept defeat and the shortcomings of their format and lack of support, they make up stories and conspiracies--the crutch of the feeble minded.
Click to expand...

Ebaltz, I have a PS3 and use it as a BD player and love it, but I've seen you make some dubious claims (btw, nothing is "future proof") and I don't see your zealotry as being any different than those on the other side. I'm asking you to please not quote any of my posts when trying to back up one of your points or arguments. If you want to quote me to debate me then fine, but please don't use me as a reference to make your point.

Frankly I find some of your posts reprehensible, ignorant, and downright prejudiced. For example...


ebaltz said:


> *edit* Offensive quote removed by Admin. *edit*


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> Then how come Apple did so well selling cell phones called iPhones, with features one could get for about $50 for $500? Answer me that one then Mr. Marketing 101.


Define "doing well". Did Apple corner the market on cellular phones? Is Apple the "winner" in the "cellphone war"? I think Apple did well for the niche market that the iPhone was designed to serve.

Same goes for HD DVD and Blu ray... doing well for a niche market and early adopters.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> *edit* Offensive quote removed by Admin. *edit*


Wow.

All I can say to that is wow... I was feeling a little guilty calling you to the carpet for your previous bashing of Wal-Mart, but you've trumped yourself here.

I know we are not supposed to get personal... but wow. This reveals some serious prejudice here on your part.


----------



## machavez00

texaswolf said:


> See this is the problem with your logic...your still thinking back in the 1980's or high school


***** was in diapers in the 80's


----------



## BudShark

According to a poster who works at Circuit City - the Paramount BDs that were never released or pulled (Transformers, Trading Places) have reappeared back in Circuit City's computer. These were in the system, but pulled out after the Paramount -> HD-DVD agreement.

The poster backed them up with pictures that clearly show a Circuit City system with Transformers - BD listed. He also captured the UPC which is clearly an "unknown" Paramount UPC...

So if anyone works at CC - try this UPC 097361 312422

Chris


----------



## BudShark

Where are we gathering for the funeral procession? The company 'acknowledging' it is going to stop manufacturing HD-DVD is as close to an official end as you'll probably ever get...

http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/



> The company said it will continue to sell HD-DVD products for a while but will stop further development of HD DVD. Meanwhile, it said its DVD factories in Aomori Prefecture, northern Japan, would be closed.


Chris


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> So you are saying you are cheap, er um thrifty. Good for you. But cheaper doesn't mean "better" either. It means, cheaper. You get what you pay for.


You completely proved my point. You are saying if you pay more, it's better. So if i payed less for my ps3, that makes yours better? I payed $99 for a normally $200 Sony receiver....that makes it cheaper? But it's Sony...I thought you liked them? Samsung, Sony, Toshiba...3 companies i wouldn't consider "cheap" companies.



ebaltz said:


> *edit* Offensive quote removed by Admin. *edit*


Now i'm not a mod...but i'm pretty sure that name calling (once again) and belittling people are against site rules....if you can't have a debate or conversation without doing these things, then perhaps you shouldn't be posting here. Pointing out flaws in someones post or way of thinking is one thing if done decently....but as i have mentioned before...there is no need to antagonize someone into and argument, or call names, or belittle people.


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> According to a poster who works at Circuit City - the Paramount BDs that were never released or pulled (Transformers, Trading Places) have reappeared back in Circuit City's computer. These were in the system, but pulled out after the Paramount -> HD-DVD agreement.
> 
> The poster backed them up with pictures that clearly show a Circuit City system with Transformers - BD listed. He also captured the UPC which is clearly an "unknown" Paramount UPC...
> 
> So if anyone works at CC - try this UPC 097361 312422
> 
> Chris


well if it is true that Toshiba is calling it quits, then it's best that the other studios go Blu, and start releasing movies right away...otherwise, we will all be sitting there and waiting...and waiting.


----------



## machavez00

texaswolf said:


> Now i'm not a mod...but i'm pretty sure that name calling (once again) and belittling people are against site rules....if you can't have a debate or conversation without doing these things, then perhaps you shouldn't be posting here. Pointing out flaws in someones post or way of thinking is one thing if done decently....but as i have mentioned before...there is no need to antagonize someone into and argument, or call names, or belittle people.


This not the first time the naughty pup's post has been deleted. The response to my post about the BB associate not knowing which profile the Samsung player I was looking at was deleted. (Shinloa reference)

Sad, this guy knows the difference


----------



## Richard King

ebaltz said:


> So you are saying you are cheap, er um thrifty. Good for you. But cheaper doesn't mean "better" either. It means, cheaper. You get what you pay for.


So, let me get this right here so I can follow your chain of "logic". If I buy product "A" at, oh, let's just for fun say, WalMart for $100.00 and you buy the same product "A" at the "high priced store" for $200.00, the product "A" that you bought is somehow superior to the product "A" that I bought? Both are the same product, packed in the same box, but yours is better? Please explain.


----------



## mridan

Non biased article from Reuters,Toshiba will stop making HD DVD players.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSL1627196120080216


----------



## cnmsales

Came to post the above the mridan posted but I have another source link as well with more confirmation.

http://www.gamingbits.com/content/view/3488/2/


----------



## bobukcat

Wow, this thing seems to be snowballing a heck of a lot faster than I ever expected it to! I've said from the beginning that I just wanted one format to win and really get going so that prices would drop and selection would improve - I just hope that's what is happening now! The way things were going for the last year I thought we'd all be living with in a two format world for at least another year - I hope that's still not true.

To those who bought HD-DVD players or were in the Red camp: I feel for ya' and I hope you bought them cheap. I also hope they continue to work for a long time so you get your money's worth (or more) of use.

I've leaned Blu but primarily just because of the larger capacity it offers and what that means for future expansion of offerings. The PS3 was also a big factor in my Blu but if HD DVD would have won I would have certainly bought into it soon - in fact I almost pulled the trigger on one several times, now I'm glad I didn't (although I might still if they start dumping them and movies).


----------



## mridan

With all of these changes within the marketplace in the last week ,I would imagine that we will have an official response from Toshiba next week?


----------



## mridan

Bobukcat I almost bought a HD DVD player last year in Nov. when Walmart had them on sale,but I always had a feeling that Blu-Ray would win because of all the studio backing.I decided to go with Blu-Ray when the rumors were out that Warner was going to back Blu exclusively,I waited two years to decide I couldn't wait any longer the picture is incredible.Now that there is one format ,the prices will start to drop and Blu-Ray will surpass dvd.


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> Wow, this thing seems to be snowballing a heck of a lot faster than I ever expected it to! I've said from the beginning that I just wanted one format to win and really get going so that prices would drop and selection would improve - I just hope that's what is happening now! The way things were going for the last year I thought we'd all be living with in a two format world for at least another year - I hope that's still not true.
> 
> To those who bought HD-DVD players or were in the Red camp: I feel for ya' and I hope you bought them cheap. I also hope they continue to work for a long time so you get your money's worth (or more) of use.
> 
> I've leaned Blu but primarily just because of the larger capacity it offers and what that means for future expansion of offerings. The PS3 was also a big factor in my Blu but if HD DVD would have won I would have certainly bought into it soon - in fact I almost pulled the trigger on one several times, now I'm glad I didn't (although I might still if they start dumping them and movies).


yeah I would have to say....considering i only paid $99 for the player....and all the movies i have watched (and continue to watch), i defiantly got my moneys worth...i'm still considering buying more movies at the cheaper price, then full price on BR (even though the less expensive disc may be worse quality . I was just planning on using it for upconverting regular dvds, but man...$12-$15 for alot of the HDDVD's....i may buy more!


----------



## ebaltz

Richard King said:


> So, let me get this right here so I can follow your chain of "logic". If I buy product "A" at, oh, let's just for fun say, WalMart for $100.00 and you buy the same product "A" at the "high priced store" for $200.00, the product "A" that you bought is somehow superior to the product "A" that I bought? Both are the same product, packed in the same box, but yours is better? Please explain.


No. I am saying that products that sell for $100 by some no name brand or some Chinese sweat shop brand are not the same as quality products. Not saying a lower price for the same model isn't good. Of course it is, I am saying cheaper products, less quality products for cheaper is exactly that, cheap. Less quality. You get what you pay for. Additionally if to save a few bucks I had to actually go into a Walmart, I wouldn't, unless the price was A LOT different. ...[redacted]....


----------



## ebaltz

HDMe said:


> Define "doing well". Did Apple corner the market on cellular phones? Is Apple the "winner" in the "cellphone war"? I think Apple did well for the niche market that the iPhone was designed to serve.
> 
> Same goes for HD DVD and Blu ray... doing well for a niche market and early adopters.


No, your point, which you are now trying to get away from was that only products that sell for dirt cheap at Walmart have any chance of being successful. And I pointed out that price really has nothing to do with anything. Its about providing something that people find worth whatever they pay for it. Lots of people paid big money for HDTVs, and cars, and houses, and iPhones, things for which they could have paid less, but they didn't because they didn't want to buy what was cheapest or on the bargin bin at some store. They wanted something good, something more valuable, longer lasting, cooler.The reason that Toshiba HAD to sell HD DVD players for $100 was because that is allt hey were worth to anyone. People knew they would be worthless in a year so they had to practically give them away. Meanwhile quality Blu-ray players, including the PS3 were selling just fine and helping to win the war.

Do you now acknowledge that Blu-ray has clearly won the HDM war? Or are you still saying VHS is king?


----------



## ebaltz

chris0 said:


> It took a while for me to type but as soon as I submitted my post and saw it was after two of ebaltz's posts I knew it would get overlooked. I thought I made some valid points, too. Oh well.
> 
> Ebaltz, I have a PS3 and use it as a BD player and love it, but I've seen you make some dubious claims (btw, nothing is "future proof") and I don't see your zealotry as being any different than those on the other side. I'm asking you to please not quote any of my posts when trying to back up one of your points or arguments. If you want to quote me to debate me then fine, but please don't use me as a reference to make your point.
> 
> Frankly I find some of your posts reprehensible, ignorant, and downright prejudiced. For example...


Well everyone is entitled to their opinions, they are like, well you know what they say. I really don't care what your opinion of me or my posts is.


----------



## ebaltz

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20080216/tc_pcworld/142579


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> No. I am saying that products that sell for $100 by some no name brand or some Chinese sweat shop brand are not the same as quality products. Not saying a lower price for the same model isn't good. Of course it is, I am saying cheaper products, less quality products for cheaper is exactly that, cheap. Less quality. You get what you pay for. Additionally if to save a few bucks I had to actually go into a Walmart, I wouldn't, unless the price was A LOT different. ...[redacted]...


Unless you look "under the covers" you have no idea about the quality of the merchandise. Most consumers would be quite surprised to find out how little difference there is sometimes between the expensive brand name and the generic equivalent.

There are also a lot of products that are only manufactured by 1 or 2 companies, but lots of different brand names are slapped on the outside. You'll also have a hard time finding current technology products not made in China or some other non-US country, so I'm not sure what your reference there is about. I buy DVD movies from Best Buy that have "made in Mexico" stickers on them... but it sounds like you are saying those are inferior to DVDs made in the US? I wonder where I could buy those DVDs.

And I notice you couldn't resist another jab at people you consider beneath you. I think I'm about done with any kind of discussion with someone who can't stay on the message and is determined to think himself better than a sizable portion of our population.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> No. I am saying that products that sell for $100 by some no name brand or some Chinese sweat shop brand are not the same as quality products. Not saying a lower price for the same model isn't good. Of course it is, I am saying cheaper products, less quality products for cheaper is exactly that, cheap. Less quality. You get what you pay for. Additionally if to save a few bucks I had to actually go into a Walmart, I wouldn't, unless the price was A LOT different. I would be afraid at what social disease I might get from touching anything in the store.


Your contradicting your own argument...earlier when i posted deals i got on Samsung, Sony, and Toshiba (last i checked two of them made BR players)...you said:


> So you are saying you are cheap, er um thrifty. Good for you. But cheaper doesn't mean "better" either. It means, cheaper. You get what you pay for.


which prompted Richards question...but now you are saying you were talking about no name brands...which i never mentioned.



> Additionally if to save a few bucks I had to actually go into a Walmart, I wouldn't, unless the price was A LOT different. I would be afraid at what social disease I might get from touching anything in the store.


Please tell me you are not comparing people who shop at Walmart to disease carrying peasants. Like i said before, places like this are places where people will let each other know about good deals on good products. If you feel the need to pay full price on a product because it makes you feel "better"...then go for it....but please do not trash or insult people who may shop at certain stores, and also come on this site.


----------



## machavez00

HDMe said:


> Unless you look "under the covers" you have no idea about the quality of the merchandise. Most consumers would be quite surprised to find out how little difference there is sometimes between the expensive brand name and the generic equivalent.
> 
> There are also a lot of products that are only manufactured by 1 or 2 companies, but lots of different brand names are slapped on the outside. You'll also have a hard time finding current technology products not made in China or some other non-US country, so I'm not sure what your reference there is about. I buy DVD movies from Best Buy that have "made in Mexico" stickers on them... but it sounds like you are saying those are inferior to DVDs made in the US? I wonder where I could buy those DVDs.
> 
> And I notice you couldn't resist another jab at people you consider beneath you. I think I'm about done with any kind of discussion with someone who can't stay on the message and is determined to think himself better than a sizable portion of our population.


The Funai VCR I had has the same remote as the Goldstar my mom had and the Magnavox VCR/DVD I had in the bedroom


----------



## Drew2k

bobukcat said:


> To those who bought HD-DVD players or were in the Red camp: I feel for ya' and I hope you bought them cheap. I also hope they continue to work for a long time so you get your money's worth (or more) of use.


I only paid $99 for my HD-A2 at a Pre-Black Friday sale last year at .... *WAL*MART*, and almost all of the 24 HD-DVD movies I have were free or gifts or severely reduced in price due to Reward Zone Coupons I used when I got them.

I'm actually going to look forward to the official end of HD-DVD, because I will snap up a LOT of HD-DVDs when they hit the bargain bins, and will enjoy them.


----------



## 408SJC

Drew2k said:


> I only paid $99 for my HD-A2 at a Pre-Black Friday sale last year at .... *WAL*MART*, and almost all of the 24 HD-DVD movies I have were free or gifts or severely reduced in price due to Reward Zone Coupons I used when I got them.
> 
> I'm actually going to look forward to the official end of HD-DVD, because I will snap up a LOT of HD-DVDs when they hit the bargain bins, and will enjoy them.


I too picked up one of these at the same time and have the same idea and it was cheaper than some of the dvd hd upconversion player i was looking at.


----------



## bobukcat

For everyone who believed/believes that Porn will deside the format war it looks like at least one company, Digital Playground, is basing it's switch on sales data showing a clear preference for BD over HDDVD:

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=12112

My curiousity about PQ, and if Porn in HiDef is actually a good thing or not is really tempting me to get a title on BD for research.... :sure:


----------



## Tom Robertson

bobukcat, while sharing your research information is typically appreciated, I suggest you be very careful with sharing this set of results...


----------



## Richard King

> which prompted Richards question...but now you are saying you were talking about no name brands...which i never mentioned.


Bingo.


----------



## dave29

Drew2k said:


> I only paid $99 for my HD-A2 at a Pre-Black Friday sale last year at .... *WAL*MART*, and almost all of the 24 HD-DVD movies I have were free or gifts or severely reduced in price due to Reward Zone Coupons I used when I got them.
> 
> I'm actually going to look forward to the official end of HD-DVD, because I will snap up a LOT of HD-DVDs when they hit the bargain bins, and will enjoy them.


agreed. i have 4 hd dvd players and 4 blu ray players, and i am also looking forward to the end of hd dvd. i only own abot 15 hd dvd movies. but i will also snatch alot of movies up when they go on sale.


----------



## Drew2k

That is the cool thing about my HD-DVD player... it still works. Ain't no amount of press releases from retailers or manufacturers or studios or snide posts from one-track-ponies will change that. It works. My HD-DVD player will continue to play HD movies from my small collection, it will continue to be a great up-convert player for my SD movies, and I'll likely be able to expand my HD-DVD collection for little cost as retailers unload their HD-DVD movies. Sounds like a win to me.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Drew2k said:


> That is the cool thing about my HD-DVD player... it still works. Ain't no amount of press releases from retailers or manufacturers or studios or snide posts from one-track-ponies will change that. It works. My HD-DVD player will continue to play HD movies from my small collection, it will continue to be a great up-convert player for my SD movies, and I'll likely be able to expand my HD-DVD collection for little cost as retailers unload their HD-DVD movies. Sounds like a win to me.


Yep!

I was one of the fence-sitters... and only bought HD DVD because of the entry price back at Thanksgiving. I could afford a more expensive Blu ray player, but wasn't ready to roll the dice on that. I paid $199 for my HD-A3 and with it got 10 "free" movies... so either all my HD DVD movies were free OR the player was free. Either way, done deal at that point and everything else is gravy!

Meanwhile, I just got my first 2 Imports (Terminator 2 and Total Recall) from the UK. As I understand it the Blu ray Terminator 2 is the theatrical release, whereas my version is the extended cut. So I'm going to crank at least one of those up tonight (maybe both) for some good HD viewing!

I also can buy more imports.. and even if the bottom falls out tomorrow, there are more movies on HD DVD that I want to purchase since I have the player. IF any actual firesales start happening, I'm sure I will find some great deals to complete my HD DVD movie wants... so more wins for me.

Then, if Blu ray is still around in a couple of years and prices are down... I'll maybe go that way. Meanwhile I have over 900 DVDs of movies and TV shows + about 20+ and growing HD DVD movies to keep me happy for quite a while.

Add to that I've been recording and archiving many HD movies from Dish on my external hard drive (last count I had around 60 movies although I'll be deleting my Terminator 2 recording once I watch the HD DVD I just bought)... I'll be quite happy to go back on the fence again.


----------



## gcisko

Drew2k said:


> That is the cool thing about my HD-DVD player... it still works. Ain't no amount of press releases from retailers or manufacturers or studios or snide posts from one-track-ponies will change that. It works. My HD-DVD player will continue to play HD movies from my small collection, it will continue to be a great up-convert player for my SD movies, and I'll likely be able to expand my HD-DVD collection for little cost as retailers unload their HD-DVD movies. Sounds like a win to me.


Yep this is a tough thing alright. My only slant on the topic is I have a PS3. But I am certianly not going to give snide comments at this point to my HD-DVD friends. And I do have many that are strongly HD-DVD invested. I remember when I first found out my DVD collection was obsolete because of Bluray and HD-DVD I was PO'd. I was not going to replace my collection of DVD's. Now it is totally different. I won't be replacing my collection, but new purchases are BD only.

I think the only thing missing from your statement is what to do in the future? Will you just be happy with plain old DVD quality from new movies? Hopefully BD players will get much cheaper or someone will make a cheap player that does both.


----------



## ebaltz

Drew2k said:


> Do you honestly think the studios currently exclusively offering Blu-Ray titles will NEVER start offering those titles in HD-DVD format?


Yes I honestly think that.


----------



## Ron Barry

Ok... Clean up on Aisle 7 done... 

Folks... 

Keep things on topic.. state your facts... No rock throwing.... No Name calling... No bulling.. If this continues down the personal road like others mods have said it will be closed down... 

In other words.. Let people make their points and make yours without belittling others and we can keep this thread open. If as a group we cannot achieve this then we will have to close done this thread completely.


----------



## Drew2k

gcisko said:


> I think the only thing missing from your statement is what to do in the future? Will you just be happy with plain old DVD quality from new movies? Hopefully BD players will get much cheaper or someone will make a cheap player that does both.


Ah, I made that decision already. 

I subscribed to the Blu-Ray Great Deals thread and will monitor upcoming hardware releases. When the 2.0 profile comes out I'll see what the costs are and try to find the best deal, and that will be my entry point into the BD arena. I'm not going to buy anything less than a 2.0 player, so I have to wait.

I will not be buying any more SD DVDs, will pick up HD-DVDs while still available, and will start buying BD after I get the player.

On a separate and unrelated note ... If only Toshiba had decided on July 30, 2007  that they would fold up shop, and if only Blu Ray was more advanced than HD and les expensive at the time, maybe then I would have been a BD supporter earlier. But that's water under the bridge... It's easy to look back with 20-20 vision, and there's nothing to gain from it, so at this point I'm not going to revisit 6 and a half-month-old questions. I'm looking to the future now.


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> Then, if Blu ray is still around in a couple of years and prices are down... I'll maybe go that way... I'll be quite happy to go back on the fence again.


I'm curious why you'd take that position. If it's simply a matter of the feeling of getting burned and not wanting to shell out what you might think is more wasted money (not trying to put words into your mouth, only trying to understand) then I get it. But your username is "HDMe" which I assume means you're a fan of HD. You purchased into it once with HD DVD, why now miss out on more HD?

What I'm trying to get at is, I get the feeling you're an HD DVD fan, and I'm trying to understand more fully the resistance of Blu-Ray from HD DVD fans. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment of you, and I'll gladly stand corrected. I just don't understand why, if you're into this for the high-def experience, you'd wait a couple of years to enjoy the rest of it.


----------



## Cholly

chris0 said:


> What I'm trying to get at is, I get the feeling you're an HD DVD fan, and I'm trying to understand more fully the resistance of Blu-Ray from HD DVD fans. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment of you, and I'll gladly stand corrected. I just don't understand why, if you're into this for the high-def experience, you'd wait a couple of years to enjoy the rest of it.


As an HD DVD buyer (not a fanboy), I can explain my rationale simply -- price, followed by features. That being said, I can't understand why Sony has an MSRP of $399 for the BDP-S300, which is not upgradeable, and has the 40 Gig PS3 at the same price, being upgradeable and having a hard drive as well. Does not compute! :nono2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Cholly,

On the larger level, I too shake my head at what manufacturers do somedays. Of course, in this case, the deeper story is how the markets are different and have different competition levels as well as different payback streams.

The gaming industry is older and highly competitive with much of the revenues coming from the sales of accessories and software.

The next generation video industry is not as competitive yet and manufacturers don't always get software or accessories sales to offset the costs. Of course, this will change, the DVD player market will reach the sub-hundred dollar point whereas the gaming industry will stay in the $150-$500 range. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## DBS Commando

Its over according to Toshiba:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080216/tc_nm/toshiba_hd_dvd_dc_2

(sorry if this was posted already)


----------



## chris0

Cholly said:


> As an HD DVD buyer (not a fanboy), I can explain my rationale simply -- price, followed by features. That being said, I can't understand why Sony has an MSRP of $399 for the BDP-S300, which is not upgradeable, and has the 40 Gig PS3 at the same price, being upgradeable and having a hard drive as well. Does not compute! :nono2:


As far as price goes, I get that. I opted for the A35 and I think I'm in the minority. It seems most opted for the A2 or A3, and there isn't a BD player in that price range. As far as the S300 vs. PS3 pricing goes, I think Tom is right. The PS3 is in a weird realm, it's an excellent BD player but also a competitive current gen gaming console. It's mostly the latter that has driven the pricing of the PS3. It's not uncommon for manufacturers to subsidize the console because the money will be recouped with the software.

I don't think any of the BD player manufacturers other than Sony get any revenue from the software sales (BD movies.) It's been speculated that the BD player manufacturers have agreed to play on a level playing field, making profits from only the players. That would explain why the Sony SA players are priced as they are.

I'm coming from the position of buying an A35, which was more expensive than some BD players at the time. If you bought into HD DVD in the last few months with an A3 then it's different. There are no BD players in that price point. Who I'm interested in hearing from are those who just seem to have given up on HDM entirely (or for the next few years) and those who refuse to buy Blu-Ray for whatever reason.

BTW, it looks like we lost someone


----------



## Pinion413

Brandon428 said:


> Now at this point in time it would be completely stupid for Sony to incorporate HD DVD playback functionality when they have HD DVD on the run,but technically the PS3 is fully capable of playing HD DVD. Heres a link that says how. http://www.voodish.co.uk/articles/can-the-ps3-really-play-hd-dvds/
> 
> Once the format war is over perhaps a firmware upgrade can make this a reality.


Interesting......

Quite amusing......

It wouldn't surprise me if they enabled it as a "surprise" feature a year or two down the road. The tech does seem to be there, and both formats seem to share the same/similar codecs.


----------



## BudShark

chris0 said:


> BTW, it looks like we lost someone


I know you're commenting about HD-DVD and not a particular user...  sometimes its best to just look the other way and let it move on...

I'm still shocked by the rapid advancement of the demise of HD-DVD. As others have said, I just hope we get full support from all studios ASAP. I didn't care who won - I just want all movie studios releasing in a format compatible with my player!

And I agree with others on the HD-DVD players - there is 0 reason to toss them. What they have is good and worth every penny - use it. But hopefully there will be quality 1.1 and 2.0 profile players for $200 within the next couple months for them to move to.

Chris


----------



## chris0

BudShark said:


> I know you're commenting about HD-DVD and not a particular user...  sometimes its best to just look the other way and let it move on...


lol. Let's pretend he's Voldemort and never speak his name again.



BudShark said:


> I'm still shocked by the rapid advancement of the demise of HD-DVD. As others have said, I just hope we get full support from all studios ASAP. I didn't care who won - I just want all movie studios releasing in a format compatible with my player!


It seemed clear to me, judging from the NPR sales figures pretty much every week of last year, that HD DVD would lose, but I never expected the dominoes to fall as quickly as they are now. I think now that studios can be confident of just one format choice for consumers, they can start wooing them more aggressively with big name catalog titles. More catalog titles=more interest=more catalog titles=more interest. It hopefully will be a snowball effect.



BudShark said:


> And I agree with others on the HD-DVD players - there is 0 reason to toss them. What they have is good and worth every penny - use it. But hopefully there will be quality 1.1 and 2.0 profile players for $200 within the next couple months for them to move to.
> 
> Chris


Like I said before, I wouldn't count on those prices for BD players too soon. Since December Toshiba was most likely giving away players at either a razor thin profit margin or a negative one. The majority of manufacturers have no stake in the software side of the business (other than maybe a licensing fee royalty for each BD sold) so they need to make their money on the hardware side. Prices will come down, but not as quickly as they have recently with HD DVD.

But I hope I'm wrong and you're right. Cheaper player prices will only further speed the rate of adoption and release of catalog titles.


----------



## machavez00

Brandon428 said:


> Now at this point in time it would be completely stupid for Sony to incorporate HD DVD playback functionality when they have HD DVD on the run,but technically the PS3 is fully capable of playing HD DVD. Heres a link that says how. http://www.voodish.co.uk/articles/can-the-ps3-really-play-hd-dvds/
> 
> Once the format war is over perhaps a firmware upgrade can make this a reality.





Pinion413 said:


> Interesting......
> 
> Quite amusing......
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if they enabled it as a "surprise" feature a year or two down the road. The tech does seem to be there, and both formats seem to share the same/similar codecs.


 had a similar thought



machavez00 said:


> Hmm, magic firmware upgrade that turns HD DVD players in to profile 2.0 BD players?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

chris0 said:


> I'm curious why you'd take that position. If it's simply a matter of the feeling of getting burned and not wanting to shell out what you might think is more wasted money (not trying to put words into your mouth, only trying to understand) then I get it. But your username is "HDMe" which I assume means you're a fan of HD. You purchased into it once with HD DVD, why now miss out on more HD?
> 
> What I'm trying to get at is, I get the feeling you're an HD DVD fan, and I'm trying to understand more fully the resistance of Blu-Ray from HD DVD fans. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment of you, and I'll gladly stand corrected. I just don't understand why, if you're into this for the high-def experience, you'd wait a couple of years to enjoy the rest of it.


It's a fair and friendly question... I've tried to answer in other posts, but maybe I haven't always gotten my motives across.

I like HD, and wanted HD in a format I could buy. When HD DVD and then Blu ray came out.. I planned to wait out the "war" until someone "won" and then see how the prices were. I'm not made of money, nor am I poor, but I couldn't justify the expense of several hundred dollars and then throwing money at re-buying movies just for HD when I have 900+ DVDs in my collection that look quite nice on my large TV, many movies of which I have not yet watched even. I also have a lot of HD options with my Dish Network subscription, and since the external hard drive option came available have been recording and archiving HD movies that I like.

So then we got the black Friday sales last year... and I looked at the $199 HD-A3 from Toshiba.. came with 2 movies in the box that I wanted (300 and Bourne Identity), had a mailaway for 5 more movies AND Best Buy was offering me the choice of 3 more off-the-shelf at time of purchase. So a player AND 10 movies for $199... so either the player or all the movies were free!

That was hard to pass up... and had there been a similar offering for a Blu ray player, I'd have considered that as well.

So, now I have HD DVD... already paid for... so when sales happen I've picked up more movies in HD from Amazon or Best Buy.. and now a couple of Imports as well. I'll still buy HD DVD as they come out, and look for deals as well... but I can't justify so soon buying into another format. It's just economics for me... not any kind of fanboyitis.

There's also the distinct possibility my gut feeling that both HD DVD and Blu ray could fail may still happen... in which case at least right now I've only bought one "failed" format perhaps... and with all the unwatched DVDs I own, plus HD DVDs still available that I'd like, plus plenty of HD with my Dish subscription.. I'm really not starving for HD content.

IF a similar freebie deal for a Blu ray player comes out, and I can figure out how to add another component to my system, then I still might consider it.. but there has been nothing comparable ($199 + 10 free movies) on a Blu ray system that I've seen.

I can't lose by waiting... prices will come down eventually, if Blu ray stays around, and movies will still be available (even Disney that puts things in their "vault" you can usually find if you want).


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Before this thread got locked earlier... I was about to post a comparison of HD DVD vs Blu ray and Dish vs DirecTV. I'll try and remember what I was saying then...

If we take Dish as red and DirecTV as blue... and use subscriber numbers from the last time I remember them... 16 million for DirecTV and 13 million for Dish... that's like a 55/45 advantage for DirecTV (blue). Quite similar to those 60/40 numbers from sales last year of Blu ray vs HD.

I also see lots of doom and gloom predictions for Dish since DirecTV added more HD, DirecTV has NFL Sunday Ticket and MLB Extra Innings... people predicting the "exodus" of Dish customers for DirecTV and Dish is going to go under now.

And yet, it seems kind of silly to talk about a 55/45 advantage with 16 million vs 13 million... but with HD/Blu ray a big deal was made of 60/40 talking about numbers less than a million for either side... or if you compare players and include PS3... numbers of 3 million to 1 million.

2 million new customers wouldn't shift the balance of power substantially to Dish from DirecTV.. but in HD/Blu ray 2 million customers would relatively "corner the market".

I'm not debating whether or not HD DVD is "done" now, if the rumor mill turns out true and Toshiba does back away... BUT the truth is most of this "deciding" has not been done by customers at all... but rather by studios.

Imagine in my example of Dish vs DirecTV... DirecTV has exclusives like Sunday Ticket/Extra Innings... Dish has Voom in HD... Right now DirecTV has more capacity than Dish for new HD channels (Blu ray discs held more than HD DVD discs)...

NOW imagine "what if" DirecTV and Dish started signing more channels exclusively. Maybe you could only get ESPN on DirecTV (Disney owns them) and FOX as well.. but you had to get Dish if you wanted USA/SciFi, and NBC (NBC Universal)... Now how would subscribers choose?

Is Dish better than DirecTV? Who knows... but if your decision was forced by limited channels with BOTH subscribers... how do you as a consumer decide?

This is where we are/have been with HD DVD vs Blu ray.. and it's a shame. There are not enough consumers buying either format to "decide" a winner between the formats. People are mostly deciding based upon studio alliances... and those alliances + media blitz and press releases driving consumer panic that if they choose "wrong" they will be out in the cold.

I wish we either had never had a "choice" from the start... OR HD DVD and Blu ray formats had really been presented "equally" for all of us to really choose.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The main objection to a Dish:DIRECTV analogy to the HD:Blu reality is that Dish and DIRECTV have always offered very similar programming choices with tremendous overlap. Dish and DIRECTV are both services, not cable channels.

HD:Blu has always been a war. Studios and manufacturers lining up on one side or the other. If nearly all content were available in both formats, then you might be able to try a comparison to the Dish/DIRECTV/Cable marketplace.

Since the content has primarily been one or the other (and consumers well aware of that issue) many, like myself have held out for a clear winner. That is at the expense of both companies. Especially the one that loses all the rest of the licensing fees.

I can wait (tho it looks like I really won't be waiting much longer.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> I like HD, and wanted HD in a format I could buy. When HD DVD and then Blu ray came out.. I planned to wait out the "war" until someone "won" and then see how the prices were. I'm not made of money, nor am I poor, but I couldn't justify the expense of several hundred dollars and then throwing money at re-buying movies just for HD when I have 900+ DVDs in my collection that look quite nice on my large TV, many movies of which I have not yet watched even. I also have a lot of HD options with my Dish Network subscription, and since the external hard drive option came available have been recording and archiving HD movies that I like.
> 
> So then we got the black Friday sales last year... and I looked at the $199 HD-A3 from Toshiba.. came with 2 movies in the box that I wanted (300 and Bourne Identity), had a mailaway for 5 more movies AND Best Buy was offering me the choice of 3 more off-the-shelf at time of purchase. So a player AND 10 movies for $199... so either the player or all the movies were free!
> 
> That was hard to pass up... and had there been a similar offering for a Blu ray player, I'd have considered that as well....


You did explain it before, and thanks for doing so again. I'm a single guy with a decent income and have always had a thing for technology. I tend to project that part of me onto others in forums like this, thinking that others are as geeky for this stuff as I am. And I too have more than a few DVDs I've bought but never watched.



HDMe said:


> Before this thread got locked earlier... I was about to post a comparison of HD DVD vs Blu ray and Dish vs DirecTV. I'll try and remember what I was saying then...
> 
> If we take Dish as red and DirecTV as blue... and use subscriber numbers from the last time I remember them... 16 million for DirecTV and 13 million for Dish... that's like a 55/45 advantage for DirecTV (blue). Quite similar to those 60/40 numbers from sales last year of Blu ray vs HD.


Physical movie media people buy or rent to watch at home has always seemed to be different than most things. People seem to want one thing, with a new single technology overlapping to take it's place. For a long time we've had choices of DirecTV/Dish/Comcast etc and people seem to like having a choice there. Same thing with gaming consoles, Super Nintendo/Sega/PS one and on to the ones we have now. Even now with HDTVs people seem to like being able to choose RPTV, Plasma, LCD or DLP.

But people seem to historically really just wanted one choice for physical movie media. VHS and Beta could've done equally well, like DirecTV and Dish do now but only one really took off. Then came LD and a little later DVD, DVD took off. There was an overlap with VHS, but DVD was the new technology and it won. I think people just want one version of physical movie media to bring home. Until there's another delivery system that everyone can take home, Blu-Ray should really take off. There are far too many old neighborhoods with aging copper lines for broadband delivery of HDM to be a viable contender anytime soon.



HDMe said:


> This is where we are/have been with HD DVD vs Blu ray.. and it's a shame. There are not enough consumers buying either format to "decide" a winner between the formats. People are mostly deciding based upon studio alliances... and those alliances + media blitz and press releases driving consumer panic that if they choose "wrong" they will be out in the cold.


Every technology needs to start somewhere, and the fact is that studios and distributors have decided one over the other. HDMe, I think you're just being too gloomy over the whole thing. This should be a good thing, that one format has won. Now studios (and the consumers who might have panicked if they chose the "wrong" format) can dedicate themselves to just Blu-Ray. I for one look forward to many more catalog releases, especially the LOTR triliogy.

Edit: Another reason for my confusion on why people aren't gung ho about this...I remember when D10 was launched and people were clamoring for more HD, more HD, more HD! Well, BD is more HD and it's here now. There seems to be a disparity there.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> The main objection to a Dish:DIRECTV analogy to the HD:Blu reality is that Dish and DIRECTV have always offered very similar programming choices with tremendous overlap.


That was actually the point of my comparison. What if Dish and DirecTV did not always offer similar programming choices with overlap? Consumers can pick between Dish and DirecTV based (for the most part) on things other than programming choices. But if each company had exclusives that were highly desired, how different would they have evolved?

With HD and Blu ray, the consumer never really was able to choose the hardware or format without taking into account no Universal (and eventually no Paramount/Dreamworks) on Blu ray... or no FOX, Disney, Sony (and now Warner) on HD DVD. Movie exclusives forced consumers' hands.

Like in the "console wars"... Nintendo vs Sega, in the semi-olden days... Sega had Sonic, Nintendo had Mario... Lots of other common/shared games... but if you wanted Sonic or Mario you had to pick a side.

My comparison of HD/Blu and Dish/DirecTV was to show that a 55/45 or 60/40 "clear consumer choice" does not tell the whole story nor does it automatically spell doom for the company on the lower side of the comparison.

If we couldn't get a common consensus from the hardware designers prior to this "war"... I wish they truly would have allowed the consumer to decide, and had movie studios support both formats until consumers chose.

That's all I was going for with that comparison.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

chris0 said:


> But people seem to historically really just wanted one choice for physical movie media.


I'm not sure about that. Right now we have DVD, HD DVD, Blu ray, PSP for take-home formats. For awhile we had cassette tapes, vinyl albums, and 8-tracks.. then 8-tracks died but we got CDs... When completely new technology emerges it tends to dominate, but as more choices become available consumers seem to like choice.

There are die-hard Pepsi vs Coke, and both thrive. McDonald's and Burger King and Wendy's and so on all do well... but there was a time when only one burger joint in a neighborhood did well.

Consumers really want choice and competition, at least in a capitalistic society. We want choice in phone companies, choice for eating, choice for where we live, choice in cars we drive, choice in satellite/cable, and choice in our media formats.

If people truly do want only one media format... then DVD should have stopped right when Blu ray/HD DVD were introduced. Or now if Blu ray has won, stop DVD and just have Blu ray. Most people are buying DVD still, even after Blu ray has been around almost 2 years... so we must not want it 



chris0 said:


> Every technology needs to start somewhere, and the fact is that studios and distributors have decided one over the other. HDMe, I think you're just being too gloomy over the whole thing. This should be a good thing, that one format has won.


No gloom from me... I just don't want to buy a new DVD/HD DVD/Blu ray player every 6 months or a year. I bought HD DVD less than 6 months ago. It would not have been in my plans to buy a new HD DVD player for a couple of years, and I wouldn't have the one I own now except for the sale... so there is absolutely no incentive for me to buy another player (Blu ray), especially if it is possible that may be doomed too.

I've said often... Blu ray and HD DVD are less than 2% of the media market at this point. I could start a company tomorrow and be the #3 choice in HD media! If HD DVD is truly dead, then I could be #2! That, to me, does not spell "clear consumer choice" or "win". Now, if Blu ray is going strong in a couple of years... I'll take a look if the price has come down.

If I sat down today and tried to watch every unwatched DVD I own, I would be occupied quite a while... so it's not like I'm depriving myself of content.. and with my external drive for archive I'm getting lots of HD too. Like I said, I wouldn't own HD DVD yet if not for the sales last year. Prior to that, HD DVD was too expensive for me as well.

I also still hold to my belief that when it is necessary to "declare victory" then it isn't a victory yet. Kind of like in boxing, when they have a "decision"... If you win by KO or at least TKO, then you win... but when the cards are even, and no KO or TKO... the judges have to decide... and no one ever feels like they have a victory in that scenario.

To me, the "win" will be a couple of years for now if Blu ray is at least 10% and growing. It's kind of like the Patriots this year in football... they won every game until losing the Super Bowl. 18-1 is the record. Every week up to that, people were declaring them the favorites to win it all... but in the end, they didn't win it all. No amount of declaring them favorites made a difference.

Even after I bought HD DVD, I went on record as saying I still believed it was highly possible for neither Blu ray nor HD DVD to be around in a couple of years. I've seen no sudden market growth to change my opinion there... and until that happens, I see no reason to jump into the fray any farther than I already have.


----------



## Rpbertxyz

I see the biggest problem as being to convince the majority of the public to go from SD DVD to HD DVDs. If this doesn't happen the HD DVDs will die. The prices will not come down for software or hardware, it will become a niche format.


----------



## Steve615

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080217/japan_toshiba.html


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Rpbertxyz said:


> I see the biggest problem as being to convince the majority of the public to go from SD DVD to HD DVDs. If this doesn't happen the HD DVDs will die. The prices will not come down for software or hardware, it will become a niche format.


Agreed.

It will also be interesting to see just how much negative backlash comes with the soon-to-be-released v1.1 Blu Ray standards, most of which are NOT backward compatible on Blu Ray players.

All those BD buyers from the past 3 months (over the holidays) certainly won't be thrilled and finding out their units can't use a number of the features that will be found on Blu Ray disks in the months ahead...and I suspect they won't be anxious to run out and spend another $400-$700 on another unit.

Without sub-$200 players and sub-$20 ongoing HD media, Blu ray will be next to fail. The PS3 crowd rents and doesn't buy BD disks, so Hollywood's greed won't be met using that channel.


----------



## machavez00

OK, there are reports Toshiba is pulling HD DVD. we don't need any more links unless it is from Toshiba


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> If people truly do want only one media format... then DVD should have stopped right when Blu ray/HD DVD were introduced. Or now if Blu ray has won, stop DVD and just have Blu ray. Most people are buying DVD still, even after Blu ray has been around almost 2 years... so we must not want it


I'm speaking more of when new technology is introduced and there are two very similar formats that come out at the same time. It's usually just one that survives. It takes time for the new technology to replace the old one.


----------



## Drew2k

200 Disc changer and 500GB hard drive for media. It's interesting...

So here's the question ... is $3500 a "great deal"?


----------



## machavez00

Drew2k said:


> 200 Disc changer and 500GB hard drive for media. It's interesting...
> 
> So here's the question ... is $3500 a "great deal"?


a great deal of money!:grin:


----------



## mridan

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It will also be interesting to see just how much negative backlash comes with the soon-to-be-released v1.1 Blu Ray standards, most of which are NOT backward compatible on Blu Ray players.
> 
> All those BD buyers from the past 3 months (over the holidays) certainly won't be thrilled and finding out their units can't use a number of the features that will be found on Blu Ray disks in the months ahead...and I suspect they won't be anxious to run out and spend another $400-$700 on another unit.
> 
> Without sub-$200 players and sub-$20 ongoing HD media, Blu ray will be next to fail. The PS3 crowd rents and doesn't buy BD disks, so Hollywood's greed won't be met using that channel.


I bought my Panasonic bd30 two weeks before Christmas and it's profile 1.1.No ethernet not profile 2.0,but I can still get firmware updates,I just have to burn a cd.This player will last me for sometime ,works great I'll wait for 2.0 standard profile when the prices start dropping.Picked it up at Abt Electronics for $425.00.


----------



## Henry

Mods; Please move if necessary.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080217/bs_nm/toshiba_hd_dvd_dc_3;_ylt=AgXDOrNlxelcg2DUJ_rR5NcE1vAI


----------



## rmartinj

Check out this link..............

http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/2598.html

:hurah:


----------



## RAD

It would be nice to see something from Toshiba since just about all these other post mention the same NHK reporters story about this.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

It would be nice if all the various links weren't quoting the same "source"... and almost all of those articles that quote an "insider source at Toshiba" also say they "could not reach anyone at Toshiba for comment."

Whether or not the rumor is true... I don't think we need a dozen different links to the same news. Now, if Toshiba comes out and makes a formal announcement I'd expect to see a link to that... but not the other dozen links to articles that quote from that.


----------



## elaclair

rmartinj said:


> Check out this link..............
> 
> http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/2598.html
> 
> :hurah:


Here's another link that also confirms the NHK story, but is a little less blu-biased..


http://www.cnbc.com/id/23196949


----------



## Drew2k

elaclair said:


> Here's another link that also confirms the NHK story, but is a little less blu-biased..
> 
> 
> http://www.cnbc.com/id/23196949


The article from this link is from Reuters, so it's not "confirmation", it's just repetition.


----------



## elaclair

Drew2k said:


> The article from this link is from Reuters, so it's not "confirmation", it's just repetition.


My bad....:beatdeadhorse:

I hadn't read the Reuters piece so this one looked "different". I would imagine though that we DO here something from Toshiba on Monday.


----------



## wakajawaka

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It will also be interesting to see just how much negative backlash comes with the soon-to-be-released v1.1 Blu Ray standards, most of which are NOT backward compatible on Blu Ray players.
> 
> All those BD buyers from the past 3 months (over the holidays) certainly won't be thrilled and finding out their units can't use a number of the features that will be found on Blu Ray disks in the months ahead...and I suspect they won't be anxious to run out and spend another $400-$700 on another unit.
> 
> Without sub-$200 players and sub-$20 ongoing HD media, Blu ray will be next to fail. The PS3 crowd rents and doesn't buy BD disks, so Hollywood's greed won't be met using that channel.


I disagree with this. Finally I'm ready to buy, and so are many of my friends. The prices will drop for players and media. No backlash will happen, price of being an early adopter (and personally, I don't care about the "number of features", and I suspect I'm not alone). I really didn't care who won the "war", just glad its over.


----------



## cnmsales

here ya go

http://gamerush.zoomshare.com/files/news/002524_Toshiba_No_decision_made_HD_DVD_under_review.htm


----------



## Drew2k

cnmsales said:


> here ya go
> 
> http://gamerush.zoomshare.com/files/news/002524_Toshiba_No_decision_made_HD_DVD_under_review.htm


That's right - it's Monday already in Japan, and they don't have a Federal holiday. 

From the article:



> However, according to The Associated Press, Toshiba has not made a final decision, but acknowledged that it had started a review of its HD DVD business strategy.*
> *


I don't think there's much doubt wha the decision will be, but like the wise Yogi once said, "It ain't over 'til it's over."


----------



## Stewart Vernon

From a Toshiba point of view... At this point I don't see why they would just throw HD DVD in the trash. It would make more sense to instead phase out their DVD-only players... and have their HD DVD/DVD-upconvert players simply be their replacement line for those.

They've already paid for the technology that went into the design at this point... so they are past the point-of-no-return there.

Even if no more HD DVD movies ever come out, they might as well just keep making the "combo" player that plays HD DVD and DVD format... OR make a combo Blu ray/HD DVD/DVD player.

IF Toshiba does give up the game... at least in this way, they would still be supporting their current customers towards the future. This would also allow possibilities of folks using the HD DVD blank media for making their own HD recordings to play at home... and also leaves a crack in the door for any movie studio who wants to release in HD DVD format to do so.

I just don't see a point in throwing away the baby with the bathwater even if they decide they can't make HD DVD be "the" standard for HD... it can still be "a" standard, and at this point it probably would not cost them any more to keep the backward compatibility in there than it would to remove it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

My read is that once they decide to the format won't succeed, they only reason to manufacture is to keep owners supplied with replacement units, not to sell new ones. That becomes very expensive from a manufacturing point of view, so you'd be throwing more money after a lost cause--at some point. Timing is everything. They likely can make in a week what they need to supply future needs for some time.

Then they can switch to Blu as quickly as possible and make manufacturing $$ from their plant rather than let that sit idle.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> My read is that once they decide to the format won't succeed, they only reason to manufacture is to keep owners supplied with replacement units, not to sell new ones. That becomes very expensive from a manufacturing point of view, so you'd be throwing more money after a lost cause--at some point. Timing is everything. They likely can make in a week what they need to supply future needs for some time.
> 
> Then they can switch to Blu as quickly as possible and make manufacturing $$ from their plant rather than let that sit idle.


I don't disagree that if Toshiba pulls the HD DVD plug, they certainly should work on Blu ray players. My only thought is that they should continue to make HD DVD players instead of making DVD upconverting ones.

This is kind of like Dish trying to get everyone on MPEG4 receivers... why keep signing new customers up for MPEG2 receivers and proliferate the old technology.

Even if HD DVD is "obsolete" in a sense if they convert to Blu ray for the future... it seems to me since an HD DVD player also plays DVDs... that it makes more sense to drop DVD players and just make HD DVD ones than it does to drop HD DVD and continue making DVD.

Think of phones... Even if people are converting to cellphones for the future, you keep making touchtone phones for landlines instead of hanging onto rotary dial unless and until you drop landline completely.

That's my thought... Toshiba should begin making Blu ray if they decide they are no longer pushing HD DVD for the future... but why drop the technology completely?

Think about Sony and some of their stuff... They didn't drop the Sony Memory Stick just because it didn't catch on like they hoped... Lots of Sony stuff still uses Memory Stick in addition to other commonly adopted tech. Seems to me Toshiba would gain value-add by carrying their HD DVD format forward in some form rather than mothballing it completely.


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## machavez00

Toshiba needs to work on a Firmware upgrade that allows you to toggle the player between HD and BD, much like the Macs can toggle between OS X and Windows. Turn it on, go to the setup menu, select media type, insert disc and play. I would be willing to pay a nominal license fee to do that because Toshiba would have to pay royalties to the BDA


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## Stewart Vernon

machavez00 said:


> Toshiba needs to work on a Firmware upgrade that allows you to toggle the player between HD and BD, much like the Macs can toggle between OS X and Windows. Turn it on, go to the setup menu, select media type, insert disc and play. I would be willing to pay a nominal license fee to do that because Toshiba would have to pay royalties to the BDA


If they could actually do such a thing, they might as well just make it auto-detect the media format when you insert a disc.

I'm hesitant to believe the hardware will support it, though. I know they both use blue laser... but the tolerances have to be different since Blu ray is getting more data-density in the same physical space. I suppose it could be possible that the HD DVD drives are tolerant enough to be tweaked in firmware, but I would be kind of surprised.

Still... it would be a cool thing to have happen IF it were technically possible. I'm not going to hold my breath though.


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## brian188

HDMe said:


> I don't disagree that if Toshiba pulls the HD DVD plug, they certainly should work on Blu ray players. My only thought is that they should continue to make HD DVD players instead of making DVD upconverting ones.


Why? How many HDDVD only titles are coming out now? How many HDDVD titles will continue to be produced? Why continue to produce dead technology. Why didn't they continue to produce BETA cassettes/players?



HDMe said:


> Even if HD DVD is "obsolete" in a sense if they convert to Blu ray for the future... it seems to me since an HD DVD player also plays DVDs... that it makes more sense to drop DVD players and just make HD DVD ones than it does to drop HD DVD and continue making DVD


SDDVD are still being produced and sold. If I own a SDDVD why would I spend $30 on a HDDVD when I could buy a SDDVD for 15 and pop it in my up convert DVD? For upgrading, I can go and buy a Blu-ray player (that also up converts SD like HDDVD) and have no need for SDDVD or a HDDVD.

Bottom line - the key to all this is when they produce a Blu-ray player that has the ability to record in HD. At that point* ALL* SDDVD/HDDVD will be obsolete.


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## mridan

More news on Toshibas exit plans...
http://www.forbes.com/markets/commo...d-sony-markets-equity-cx_jb_0218markets1.html Forbes

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120321618700574049.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news WSJ


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## RAD

HDMe said:


> From a Toshiba point of view... At this point I don't see why they would just throw HD DVD in the trash. It would make more sense to instead phase out their DVD-only players... and have their HD DVD/DVD-upconvert players simply be their replacement line for those.


That might make sense if they were making a profit on the current HD DVD player pricing, but in one of the links that's been posted about this the past few days said that Toshiba was loosing a couple hundred dollars on each HD DVD player at these price levels. If they raised the price so they would at least break even how many people would be willing to pay that premium for an upconverting player when the market has tons of them out there at the $100 or below price level?


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## Stuart Sweet

As much as I hate to say it, the best thing for everyone would be to rip that band-aid off fast... Toshiba and Microsoft need to stop making HD-DVD players today and concentrate on BD support for the next version of Windows Media Player. Let Toshiba exert negative price pressure on the market for BD's. I won't be buying one until BD profile 2.0 players, with ethernet, are under $199.


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## machavez00

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/ir/en/news/20080218_01.htm
Comment on media reports on HD DVD


> The media reported that Toshiba will discontinue its HD DVD business. Toshiba has not made any announcement concerning this. Although Toshiba is currently assessing its business strategies, no decision has been made at this moment.


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## Tom Robertson

Good find, Michael. I had seen unofficial quotes of the same line, so it is good to see Toshiba with an official statement.

(BTW, I put the quote inside a quotebox, if you don't mind.)

Thanks,
Tom


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## crabtrp

brian188 said:


> Why? How many HDDVD only titles are coming out now? How many HDDVD titles will continue to be produced? Why continue to produce dead technology. Why didn't they continue to produce BETA cassettes/players?


The Betamax/VHS format war fully ended in 1988. Sony produced Betamax players up until 2002.


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## Steve Mehs

YES! HD DVD IS DEAD!!!!! Who's yo daddy!

It was only a matter of time, BD is the future. For those that bought into the failure, you don't really need new firmware to make use out of your HD DVD player. Have a door that wont stay open? Just unhook that thing from your TV and put it on the ground by the door. Worried about a gust of wind blowing over that stack of papers? Toshiba to the rescue! Just put the HD DVD player on top of the papers and vuh-la! Toshiba, the leading manufacture of doorstops and paperweights. 

No, I didn't buy my BD player yet, but yesterday I proudly funded the Sony machine buying a 12.1MP digital camera. Long live Sony, long live Blu Ray, the war is over, the war is over!


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## shendley

Okay, my HDDVD machine is now basically a very good upconverting dvd player. I can live with that. But I'm still ticked about the way this thing ended. Instead of it being decided by the consumer on the basis of cost and quality of the product (HDDVD machines are and have been seriously cheaper and I've heard no good arguments for Blu delivering a higher quality picture), it's been decided by the corporate suits in the studios, Netflix, Blockbuster, Wal-Mart, etc. And, quite naturally, they picked the more expensive format as the winner! 

Hopefully, if Toshiba starts manufacturing blu machines, the price will drop and mass adoption will start to take place. I personally won't even be sniffing a machine until it starts approaching $200. I can't help but wonder, though - as others on the thread have as well - if this isn't just going to doom the medium to a niche market. Sony doesn't appear to be too concerned about making their machines attractive price wise to a mass market. If that doesn't change (or somebody else like Toshiba doesn't come in and force a change) I see a lot of people being quite satisfied with the great looking movies in HD available from their satelite or cable provider and pretty good looking dvds played in their upconverting dvd players.


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## Drew2k

Steve Mehs said:


> YES! HD DVD IS DEAD!!!!! Who's yo daddy!
> 
> It was only a matter of time, BD is the future. For those that bought into the failure, you don't really need new firmware to make use out of your HD DVD player. Have a door that wont stay open? Just unhook that thing from your TV and put it on the ground by the door. Worried about a gust of wind blowing over that stack of papers? Toshiba to the rescue! Just put the HD DVD player on top of the papers and vuh-la! Toshiba, the leading manufacture of doorstops and paperweights.
> 
> No, I didn't buy my BD player yet, but yesterday I proudly funded the Sony machine buying a 12.1MP digital camera. Long live Sony, long live Blu Ray, the war is over, the war is over!


See below, posted as a "general response" to a one-hit wonder raving about BD players trumping HD-DVD in the format war:



Drew2k said:


> That is the cool thing about my HD-DVD player... it still works. Ain't no amount of press releases from retailers or manufacturers or studios or snide posts from one-track-ponies will change that. It works. My HD-DVD player will continue to play HD movies from my small collection, it will continue to be a great up-convert player for my SD movies, and I'll likely be able to expand my HD-DVD collection for little cost as retailers unload their HD-DVD movies. Sounds like a win to me.


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## dhhaines

shendley said:


> Okay, my HDDVD machine is now basically a very good upconverting dvd player. I can live with that. But I'm still ticked about the way this thing ended. Instead of it being decided by the consumer on the basis of cost and quality of the product (HDDVD machines are and have been seriously cheaper and I've heard no good arguments for Blu delivering a higher quality picture), it's been decided by the corporate suits in the studios, Netflix, Blockbuster, Wal-Mart, etc. And, quite naturally, they picked the more expensive format as the winner!
> 
> Hopefully, if Toshiba starts manufacturing blu machines, the price will drop and mass adoption will start to take place. I personally won't even be sniffing a machine until it starts approaching $200. I can't help but wonder, though - as others on the thread have as well - if this isn't just going to doom the medium to a niche market. Sony doesn't appear to be too concerned about making their machines attractive price wise to a mass market. If that doesn't change (or somebody else like Toshiba doesn't come in and force a change) I see a lot of people being quite satisfied with the great looking movies in HD available from their satelite or cable provider and pretty good looking dvds played in their upconverting dvd players.


 I have to agree with you. If the Blu-Ray players don't come down in price Blu-Ray will have the same fate that HD-DVD is having.

And it ticks me off too that this whole "war" wasn't decided by the consumer, but by the studios. The biggest losers in this whole so called war are the consumers. The only reason I bought into both is because the studios were releasing exclusively in one format or the other and not both at the same time. Neither format has any better quality HD than the other. Just the price, which means we as consumers lost the war.


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## Steve Mehs

'It works' Really isn't saying much, I'm sure I could go on eBay and get a Commodore 64 or Apple IIe that 'works'. As time goes by and most all titles are released on BD, upconverting SD DVDs and playing HD DVDs will become irrelevant.


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## RAD

dhhaines said:


> I have to agree with you. If the Blu-Ray players don't come down in price Blu-Ray will have the same fate that HD-DVD is having.


I can see prices slowly coming down over the next few years, but a drop to sub $200 in the next year I'd say is doubtful if I had to guess. I just look back to prices on VHS and DVD players and remember what I was paying and how long it too prices to drop. My first DVD player was $800, my 2nd a Toshiba progressive back in 2001 was about $450, the last player I got was 2006 a Sony with upconverting was $125 and had more features then the prior two.


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## Tom Robertson

Seems to me that comparing the Commodore 64 to the HD-DVD players is a lot extreme. 

(You'd have better luck comparing my LD player to the 64.) 

HD-DVD players actually provide current service to things that are selling today: SD DVDs as well as HD DVDs. There aren't any existing Commodore 64 accessories being sold. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Ron Barry

And by the time Blu takes over if it becomes a reality, the price to convert will be low. Standard DVDs will be out for a long time to come given that technology transitions take a long time for masses to transition. How long did the VHS transition to DVD transition occur.


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## dhhaines

RAD said:


> I can see prices slowly coming down over the next few years, but a drop to sub $200 in the next year I'd say is doubtful if I had to guess. I just look back to prices on VHS and DVD players and remember what I was paying and how long it too prices to drop. My first DVD player was $800, my 2nd a Toshiba progressive back in 2001 was about $450, the last player I got was 2006 a Sony with upconverting was $125 and had more features then the prior two.


 But the difference there was that there was a big difference in video quality. A sub $150 upconvert looks real close to Blu and HD and people don't have to pay the premium for the HD media.

Don't get me wrong, I love both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray quality, but I just don't see the masses jumping over unless the price comes down.


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## Mike728

dhhaines said:


> But the difference there was that there was a big difference in video quality. A sub $150 upconvert looks real close to Blu and HD and people don't have to pay the premium for the HD media.


Aren't some studios putting up-convert flags on their SD DVD's now? I haven't encountered it, but I remember it being brought up before.


----------



## RAD

dhhaines said:


> But the difference there was that there was a big difference in video quality. A sub $150 upconvert looks real close to Blu and HD and people don't have to pay the premium for the HD media.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray quality, but I just don't see the masses jumping over unless the price comes down.


IIRC it's been said that when comparing the number of HDM players sold at this point in their life cycle to DVD players shows HDM players selling at a quicker rate. So maybe the public is taking the plunge now with the higher prices and will just convert quicker when prices come down. Could be they see those demo units on the BB end caps while they're picking up their new HDTV and see the part where they compare HD and DVD PQ and say what the heck is another $400?


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## chris0

machavez00 said:


> http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/ir/en/news/20080218_01.htm
> Comment on media reports on HD DVD


That quote seems to be almost as good as confirmation since they didn't give their usual response, "We stand firmly committed to HD DVD..."


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## mridan

This just in....

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/1...-announce-death-of-hd-dvd-tomorrow-stop-sale/


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## tomcrown1

Yep HDDVD is dead. 

I can tell the difference between BDDVD and upconverted DVD the picture on a BDDVD is more movie like and I can see all the little details. The fast action scenes shows alot more detail.

The the real big difference is that heart thumping shocking quaking great sound which beats DVD to h--l


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## dhhaines

RAD said:


> IIRC it's been said that when comparing the number of HDM players sold at this point in their life cycle to DVD players shows HDM players selling at a quicker rate. So maybe the public is taking the plunge now with the higher prices and will just convert quicker when prices come down. Could be they see those demo units on the BB end caps while they're picking up their new HDTV and see the part where they compare HD and DVD PQ and say what the heck is another $400?


 That could be true for the still relatively few players sold. I have standalones for both formats, but I always get suckered in early.:grin: But I also have 4 DVD players hooked to TV's that won't get updated until the prices go down, it's not worth the relatively small upgrade in quality. I own well over 400 DVD's, but only buy HD media for a few new releases. There really isn't much in the way of "extras" on Blu-Ray discs to warrent the difference in price on most titles. I just don't see a mass adaptation of Blu-Ray until people can buy them cheaper or there's a huge difference in whats on the discs now.


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## dhhaines

tomcrown1 said:


> Yep HDDVD is dead.
> 
> I can tell the difference between BDDVD and upconverted DVD the picture on a BDDVD is more movie like and I can see all the little details. The fast action scenes shows alot more detail.
> 
> The the real big difference is that heart thumping shocking quaking great sound which beats DVD to h--l


 Yes... that's very true. But outside of people on this forum, most households wouldn't even know the difference as they only have them hooked to the HDTV and not to a surround sound system.


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## Tom Robertson

dhhaines,

You have very well summarized the current state. DVD will be replaced until there are reasons to. Early adopters who waited on the sidelines (me for instance) will jump in next. Then, as prices fall, more and more people will start buying which will further competition and lower prices...

At some point, you won't be able to buy a black and white TV, color will be just as inexpensive. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Mike728

dhhaines said:


> Yes... that's very true. But outside of people on this forum, most households wouldn't even know the difference as they only have them hooked to the HDTV and not to a surround sound system.


Also, if you don't have a newer A/V receiver you still get the same old DTS and DD audio.


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## dhhaines

Tom Robertson said:


> At some point, you won't be able to buy a black and white TV, color will be just as inexpensive.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


 Didn't know you could STILL buy a black and white TV.. :sure:

Actually can you still buy a non HDTV??? Haven't owned one of those for well over a year and I have 5 in my house. Which now that I think about it doesn't make any sense at all since there's only three people who live here.:nono2:  :eek2:


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## Tom Robertson

You can't buy a non-digital TV, but you still can get TVs that really only display roughly SD-ish quality.


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## elaclair

Ron Barry said:


> How long did the VHS transition to DVD transition occur.


IIRC "parity" in sales was reached at about the 4 year point, with the acceptance curve accelerating after that.


----------



## texaswolf

Steve Mehs said:


> YES! HD DVD IS DEAD!!!!! Who's yo daddy!
> 
> It was only a matter of time, BD is the future. For those that bought into the failure, you don't really need new firmware to make use out of your HD DVD player. Have a door that wont stay open? Just unhook that thing from your TV and put it on the ground by the door. Worried about a gust of wind blowing over that stack of papers? Toshiba to the rescue! Just put the HD DVD player on top of the papers and vuh-la! Toshiba, the leading manufacture of doorstops and paperweights.
> 
> No, I didn't buy my BD player yet, but yesterday I proudly funded the Sony machine buying a 12.1MP digital camera. Long live Sony, long live Blu Ray, the war is over, the war is over!


Just trying to clarify your post...are you saying you don't even own a BR player, yet the "BD is the future"?

Reminds me of someone else who would constantly say BD is better than HDDVD in everyway....without ever owning a HDDVD player.

For me...i will need to use the HDDVD player to watch DVDs, because it upconverts much better than my PS3...so why would i make it a door stop when it looks better? If you owned both formats, i think you would feel the same way....hmmm to day i want to watch the matrix....not on BD yet, but i can still watch it in HD, with my HDDVD player...whats that? want to watch Spider Man? i can on my BD player.

The day that ALL studios release their movies to BD, will be the day that the "door stop" comments will be realistic. I wouldn't be cheering the war is over until you see that happen...because until the day you are able to buy any movie in HD, you are still losing out.

and that "Sony machine" you are talking about, needs to pony up some more money to quickly get Universal and Paramount to start releasing BD titles...otherwise, it will still feel like a war for the one format owners, because they arent reaping any rewards, just a waiting period...for the same movies they have been waiting for.


----------



## puckhead

dhhaines said:


> Yes... that's very true. But outside of people on this forum, most households wouldn't even know the difference as they only have them hooked to the HDTV and not to a surround sound system.


It is easy to forget about those "other people" outside of the high tech forum universe. I would go further and submit these people may not even have dvd/hd sources connected to HD-capable TV's with something better than a composite connection. <$100 up-convert players will satisfy these folks for years to come. You should see my family and friends faces when I hook up their sources with component connections for their Christmas gifts! "Whoa! I didn't know it could do that!!" 

The other question is how many people will convert their entire movie collection? Like many others, I have a substantial DVD collection. Will I upgrade "Star Wars" to HD? Sure. "The Matrix"? Absolutely. "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles"? Hmmm. 
I think many will buy the latest blockbuster in HD, but $10-15 more for a drama with zero special effects is a tough sell for even us "early adopters".

Hopefully, Blu-ray can now concentrate on user-friendly/more affordable/fully functional hardware and appeal to those "other people" they need to truly "win" the war.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

brian188 said:


> Why? How many HDDVD only titles are coming out now? How many HDDVD titles will continue to be produced? Why continue to produce dead technology. Why didn't they continue to produce BETA cassettes/players?


As someone else already pointed out, Sony only stopped making Beta players about 6 or so years ago... also, Beta did have a "home" in professional ranks as it was used by moviemakers even after the general public thought it was dead.



brian188 said:


> SDDVD are still being produced and sold. If I own a SDDVD why would I spend $30 on a HDDVD when I could buy a SDDVD for 15 and pop it in my up convert DVD? For upgrading, I can go and buy a Blu-ray player (that also up converts SD like HDDVD) and have no need for SDDVD or a HDDVD.
> 
> Bottom line - the key to all this is when they produce a Blu-ray player that has the ability to record in HD. At that point* ALL* SDDVD/HDDVD will be obsolete.


My point is simple. Your argument of "dead technology" would apply to DVDs as well. Why not just stop making DVDs? Actually, I argued this was probably the way to go from the start... but movie studios don't want to lose that profit since most consumers are still happily buying DVD.

But my point... Toshiba has already invested in HD DVD. That money is already gone. IF Toshiba stopped making DVD-only players, and only made the HD-DVD ones... then their volume goes up by default. I just don't see why they wouldn't stop making DVD players, and make HD DVD + Blu ray players.

You can argue all you want about there may not be more HD DVD movies released or it is a dead format... but that's not the point. The point is, they are already manufacturing these, and if they up their volume then there's no reason to not just keep making them and drop their old DVD line.

The same argument can be made for what Sony has been doing with their PS3. Initially it had hardware backwards compatibility with the PS2. They attempted to cost-reduce by going to software emulation with spotty results.. and now are removing PS2 compatibility entirely for further cost reduction on at least some models. IF they from the start said the PS3 was not going to be compatible, that's a valid thing... but why take away that feature now? They actually still sell many PS2s, so clearly there is a market for it.. and even if no new PS2 games come out there are plenty of people who still like the old ones. Why not keep the compatibility in there since the money is already spent.


----------



## RAD

HDMe said:


> But my point... Toshiba has already invested in HD DVD. That money is already gone. IF Toshiba stopped making DVD-only players, and only made the HD-DVD ones... then their volume goes up by default.


I'll say this again to counter your idea, it only make sense if Toshiba isn't loosing money on each and every HD-DVD player they're currently selling at the current price points. While I don't think we'll ever know for sure one of the recent 'news' items on the shutdown says that Toshiba was loosing hundreds of dollars on each player, if they made the price to actually reflect their costs I doubt that many folks would be buying them for just an upconvert player.


----------



## Steve Mehs

> Just trying to clarify your post...are you saying you don't even own a BR player, yet the "BD is the future"?


What's the relevance? As a Sony loyalist, and Toshiba hater, BD is my choice, I put off buying a BD Player infavor of other purchases, I'm not one to watch the same movie over and over, after I get a bunch of other electronic crap, a BD player will be here. I've seen both many times, Quality wise, HD DVD and BD are about the same, but the one that Sony backs gets my vote, and hey hey, that's the format that won. What I own or support is irrelevant, what you own and support is irrelevant, HD DVD is dead, and good riddance!



> For me...i will need to use the HDDVD player to watch DVDs, because it upconverts much better than my PS3...so why would i make it a door stop when it looks better? If you owned both formats, i think you would feel the same way....hmmm to day i want to watch the matrix....not on BD yet, but i can still watch it in HD, with my HDDVD player...whats that? want to watch Spider Man? i can on my BD player.


I would just chose to miss out. Any movie that's not released on BD is just simple not worthy of my viewing time. It's not my loss, it's the studios, they're losing my money because they don't yet have the movie released on the future of optical media, Blu Ray Disc.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

RAD said:


> I'll say this again to counter your idea, it only make sense if Toshiba isn't loosing money on each and every HD-DVD player they're currently selling at the current price points. While I don't think we'll ever know for sure one of the recent 'news' items on the shutdown says that Toshiba was loosing hundreds of dollars on each player, if they made the price to actually reflect their costs I doubt that many folks would be buying them for just an upconvert player.


It depends on why they were losing money.

IF they were losing money because the cost of the components exceeded their selling price, then you are absolutely correct.

BUT, if the "loss" was due to the averaged out development costs that most companies recoup over time with products... then that money is already gone and can't come back anyway.

We may never know the answer to the above... but I'd be surprised if the components (other than the blue laser) cost substantially more in one player than another. The development cost is a non-issue, because it is already lost money no matter what they do... so the only thing that would prevent this from making sense would be if the blue laser costs substantially more than the red one.

That said, they will be presumably making Blu ray players if they throw in the towel... so they'll have to be spending money to acquire blue lasers anyway... and in bulk, the price may come down enough to have "extras" for HD DVD players.


----------



## dhhaines

HDMe said:


> It depends on why they were losing money.
> 
> IF they were losing money because the cost of the components exceeded their selling price, then you are absolutely correct.
> 
> BUT, if the "loss" was due to the averaged out development costs that most companies recoup over time with products... then that money is already gone and can't come back anyway.
> 
> We may never know the answer to the above... but I'd be surprised if the components (other than the blue laser) cost substantially more in one player than another. The development cost is a non-issue, because it is already lost money no matter what they do... so the only thing that would prevent this from making sense would be if the blue laser costs substantially more than the red one.
> 
> That said, they will be presumably making Blu ray players if they throw in the towel... so they'll have to be spending money to acquire blue lasers anyway... and in bulk, the price may come down enough to have "extras" for HD DVD players.


 Just through alot of experience with manufacturing, my guess would be that it's more the R & D and tooling that is the loss and not the actual cost in labor and material. And like you said that will never get recouped at this point, either way.


----------



## ShawnL25

It is rumored that we will have an announcement from Toshiba tomorrow regarding their abandonment of the HD DVD format, Paramount is expected to follow suite Wednesday with their Re-backing BD, previously announced but unreleased titles could hit shelves as early as March 4th. Nothing yet on Universals front. I really hope this turns out to be true! While I'm not particularly looking forward to Blades of Glory on BD the notion that we could finally have one HD format is incredibly exciting regardless of which format it is.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ShawnL25 said:


> ... I really hope this turns out to be true! While I'm not particularly looking forward to Blades of Glory on BD the notion that we could finally have one HD format is incredibly exciting regardless of which format it is.


Very well said. I didn't care much which won, I just wanted one format.


----------



## DCSholtis

ShawnL25 said:


> It is rumored that we will have an announcement from Toshiba tomorrow regarding their abandonment of the HD DVD format, Paramount is expected to follow suite Wednesday with their Re-backing BD, previously announced but unreleased titles could hit shelves as early as March 4th. Nothing yet on Universals front. I really hope this turns out to be true! While I'm not particularly looking forward to Blades of Glory on BD the notion that we could finally have one HD format is incredibly exciting regardless of which format it is.


Not me. I still have hope for HD DVD. IF BD truly wins it will be a sad day indeed. Gone will be the days where we could actually have movies and neat extras to look at. Yes I'm one that takes the time to look around at the extras which I won't be able to do anymore with BD. Good thing HD DVDs will still be on sale at least in import form for the foreseeable future IF this "news" is true. And still plan on and have indeed purchased many HD DVD titles in the last few days to enjoy such as Sweeny Todd, Charlie Wilson's War, Fletch as well as a gaming HD DVD called Space Ace which according to the specs will have additional extras not found on the BD version due to the interactivity. As I said before HD DVD is the 2.0 profile BD only wish they had.

Regarding Universal, rumor has it $ony and them do NOT get along. IF HD DVD is coming to an end I certainly hope that Universal gives $ony the old FU, refuse to join BD and either just stay with SD discs or make some sort of deal with MS selling their HD titles via xBox Live. That to me would be sweet justice.


----------



## apexmi

puckhead said:


> The other question is how many people will convert their entire movie collection? Like many others, I have a substantial DVD collection. Will I upgrade "Star Wars" to HD? Sure. "The Matrix"? Absolutely. "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles"? Hmmm.
> I think many will buy the latest blockbuster in HD, but $10-15 more for a drama with zero special effects is a tough sell for even us "early adopters".


+1

I have maybe a dozen in my 500+ collection that I will "UPGRADE" for the rest of the collection upconverted really is good enough.


----------



## texaswolf

*It's from Engadget...so take it for what it's worth:*

BDA sez Toshiba and Microsoft are "more than welcome" to go Blu

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/18/bda-sez-toshiba-and-microsoft-are-more-than-welcome-to-go-blu/



> Oh, how the times have changed. Merely months ago we caught Frank Simonis, chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, firing off all sorts of vitriol at the red camp, and now that the wheels are falling off of the HD DVD wagon, we're seeing quite the change of heart. According to a recent interview with Tech Radar, Mr. Simonis was quoted as saying that Toshiba and Microsoft, along with any other company, is "more than welcome to join the BDA." He continued by stating that if "Toshiba decides to drop HD DVD, it would extend the hand of friendship to them." Yeah, it's kind of cute to see such lovey-dovey phrases being thrown around, but we've all ideas none of these heartfelt feelings are easing the sting felt by Toshiba right about now.


----------



## steinmeg

Nick said:


> In an effort to consolidate the plethora of news reports and press releases about the
> great HD DVD vs Blu-Ray battle, I am starting this thread. If you have news or views
> about the fight for hi-def format superiority, whether about disc sales or hardware
> news, please feel free to contribute to this thread.


Looks the war might be finally over....Toshiba announced that they will no longer produce HD DVD players ...conceiting the fight over to BlueRay....HOORAY


----------



## texaswolf

steinmeg said:


> Looks the war might be finally over....Toshiba announced that they will no longer produce HD DVD players ...conceiting the fight over to BlueRay....HOORAY


we heard....posted in the last 24 hours:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/1...-announce-death-of-hd-dvd-tomorrow-stop-sale/

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/ir/en/news/20080218_01.htm

http://www.forbes.com/markets/commo...d-sony-markets-equity-cx_jb_0218markets1.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120321618700574049.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080217/japan_toshiba.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080217/bs_nm/toshiba_hd_dvd_dc_3;_ylt=AgXDOrNlxelcg2DUJ_rR5NcE1vAI

http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/2598.html

http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/2598.html

http://www.cnbc.com/id/23196949

http://gamerush.zoomshare.com/files/news/002524_Toshiba_No_decision_made_HD_DVD_under_review.htm


----------



## bobukcat

DCSholtis said:


> Regarding Universal, rumor has it $ony and them do NOT get along. IF HD DVD is coming to an end I certainly hope that Universal gives $ony the old FU, refuse to join BD and either just stay with SD discs or make some sort of deal with MS selling their HD titles via xBox Live. That to me would be sweet justice.


So, if your preferred format doesn't win (and it sure as heck looks like they're a goner) you wish everyone to be stuck without a viable HDM media and that all the BD early adopters (and those that bought both) are stuck without the movies they want on HDM??? If so, I have to say I thnk that's just pretty sad.... :icon_lame


----------



## bobukcat

dhhaines said:


> Just through alot of experience with manufacturing, my guess would be that it's more the R & D and tooling that is the loss and not the actual cost in labor and material. And like you said that will never get recouped at this point, either way.


True they won't get the R&D back but even if they are making a very small margin on the HD-DVD players (and I doubt they are) it would still be more expensive to include a Blue length laser than a red length laser that everyone and their mother builds into hundreds of millions of DVD player) and margin is still margin.


----------



## BudShark

DCSholtis said:


> Yes I'm one that takes the time to look around at the extras which I won't be able to do anymore with BD.


Since you haven't gone BD you'll pretty much have to buy a 1.1 or 2.0 player and associated discs... so you'll have your PiP and Internet connectivity if so desired. If your after alternate commentary audio, extra features on the discs, etc... well that's been there since the beginning.

Chris


----------



## BudShark

Toshiba press release scheduled for 3AM Eastern... we should know for sure in the morning... although not much else they can say other than:

A) We're pulling the plug on HD-DVD
B) We WILL be pulling the plug on HD-DVD
C) HD-DVD? Whats that?

Chris


----------



## syphix

BudShark said:


> Toshiba press release scheduled for 3AM Eastern...


Where is this "scheduled press release" talked about? I can't find mention of them having scheduled one...

Never mind...found it via Digital Bits...



> *(LATE UPDATE - 2/18/08 - 4 PM PST)*
> 
> Japanese news site Nikkei.net has just announced that Toshiba's plan is to immediately stop manufacturing all HD-DVD products (both players and recorders), and to stop selling them at end of March. The official announcement will happen at the press conference set for 5 PM Tokyo time. We'll be back with Toshiba's official statement as soon as it comes in.
> 
> Thanks to Keiko S. for the translation and links. Stay tuned...
> 
> *(LATE UPDATE - 2/18/08 - 3:30 PM PST)*
> 
> Okay... things are moving very fast now. Industry sources are telling us that Toshiba has a press event scheduled for tomorrow afternoon (Tuesday 5 PM Tokyo time), at which they're expected to make the announcement that they're quitting the HD-DVD format. That's just 8 1/2 hours from now. Rumor is that hardware and software sales will be discontinued in early March, but we expect official details soon. We'll post more on this as it comes in.
> Also, we haven't confirmed this with the studio yet, but it seems likely: Format War Central is reporting that a Technicolor insider has informed them that work has stopped on CBS and Paramount's Star Trek: The Original Series Remastered - Season Two HD-DVD release. They're saying that Toshiba was financing the production as part of an exclusive arrangement to have the title on HD-DVD only, and they've now pulled the plug.
> 
> We expect that Paramount and Universal may have official comments of their own as early as tomorrow morning.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

bobukcat said:


> True they won't get the R&D back but even if they are making a very small margin on the HD-DVD players (and I doubt they are) it would still be more expensive to include a Blue length laser than a red length laser that everyone and their mother builds into hundreds of millions of DVD player) and margin is still margin.


That's the "unknown" to me... Supposedly Blu ray discs cost more to replicate than HD DVD... but without concrete numbers we don't know. We do know, however, that generally speaking HD DVD and Blu ray movies have been retailing for about the same price, and Blu ray has been able to have lots of sales less than HD DVD prices for many movies... so that greater cost may not be as much as we have been led to believe.

Similarly.. I have no doubt that the blue laser costs more than the red one... but, how much more? If we are just talking a few dollars then that can be made up in volume.. AND if Toshiba starts making Blu ray players... and if Blu ray becomes a bigger part of the market, then the cost of those blue lasers would presumably come down... and at some point the cost-differential may not be much.

I remember in computers... I worked for a company that included CD-ROM drives in all their computers. There came a point, however, where the cost of including a DVD-ROM was about the same (only slightly more) than the cost of a CD-ROM... so they switched their supplier over to include DVD-ROM in all their computers even though they really didn't need that for the applications used on the computers.

That's my thought for HD DVD... The R&D is blown and will never be recouped if you tank the whole thing anyway... but if it just costs a few dollars more to buy a blue laser.. Toshiba would be better off converting their DVD-player line to HD DVD-lines and that would be the end of that. They wouldn't have to make the 3 models of HD DVD like they do now... just settle on one HD DVD model (probably the HD-30 that has 1080p but not all the extra audio stuff on the 35 model) and make that and sell it as your only DVD-upconverting player, also having compatibility for HD DVDs.

Then they can introduce multiple Blu ray models to take advantage of that market segment.


----------



## Mike728

rcoleman111 said:


> Some of them (e.g., the PS3) can be upgraded by firmware.


Some of them? I believe that the PS3 is the ONLY one currently on the market that MAY be 2.0 upgradeable.

The player deals are actually worse now than they were a month ago. No more free disc's with player purchase. Makes me wonder what's going on...


----------



## Guest

That is true - the PS3 appears to be the only one at this time that is upgradeable by firmware to 2.0.


----------



## mightythor88

Ps3 is the only way to go at this point, anything else that you can buy now as far as I know will not be 2.0 upgradeable and will be obsolete in time.


----------



## Drew2k

rcoleman111 said:


> Some of them (e.g., the PS3) can be upgraded by firmware.


Thanks. I've read that, but at this time I'm not willing to pay a premium for the game system console and would rather wait for the dedicated DVD player with 2.0 ...


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe, my understanding is similar to yours. At least initially the Blu discs cost more to replicate since they were quite a bit different from the DVD disks that everyone had experience making replication machinery. Just a bit more precision in the replication process. And blu has an extra coating to protect from scratches, I gather.

I presume that very quickly the cost differential will (or perhaps already has) somewhat equalized. Besides, we're really paying for the premium quality right now far more than the cost differential between DVDs and next gen. 

Now that we appear to have just one format with all the manufacturers competing on the same plain, I expect prices will drop. We all know they have to succeed. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Drew2k

rcoleman111 said:


> With the PS3 selling for about $399, there doesn't seem to be any premium compared to most of the Blu-ray players on the market. A lot of the reviews I've read indicate it's one of the better choices out there right now for Blu-ray players. I'm trying to evaluate what advantages and disadvantages the PS3 has compared to standalone players.


Right off the bat, I know one disadvantage for the PS3 for me is that it's a Bluetooth remote and I'd have to pay extra for an IR converter to let it work with my Harmony universal remote.


----------



## Guest

Drew2k said:


> Right off the bat, I know one disadvantage for the PS3 for me is that it's a Bluetooth remote and I'd have to pay extra for an IR converter to let it work with my Harmony universal remote.


Thanks for the reply, Drew. I'm using separate remotes for my existing DVD players, so that's not really an issue for me. As long as it has a working remote, I'll be happy with it.

I've just started reading up on the PS3 as a Blu-ray player, and I'm wondering how some of the other features compare. One complaint I've heard about some of the Samsung standalone Blu-ray players is that some functionality is missing, like having to start at the beginning of a disc if you stop it instead of resuming where it left off. Another common complaint with some models is the amount of time it takes for the movie to start playing after the disc is inserted.


----------



## chris0

Mike728 said:


> Also, if you don't have a newer A/V receiver you still get the same old DTS and DD audio.


If you get a player that has analog outs and have a receiver with analog ins then you can enjoy some of the new audio. Many people don't realize that they don't necessarily need to upgrade their receiver.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Toshiba Press release:



> *Toshiba Announces Discontinuation of HD DVD Businesses*
> 
> 19 February, 2008
> 
> Company Remains Focused on Championing Consumer Access to High Definition Content
> 
> TOKYO--Toshiba Corporation today announced that it has undertaken a thorough review of its overall strategy for HD DVD and has decided it will no longer develop, manufacture and market HD DVD players and recorders. This decision has been made following recent major changes in the market. Toshiba will continue, however, to provide full product support and after-sales service for all owners of Toshiba HD DVD products.
> 
> HD DVD was developed to offer consumers access at an affordable price to high-quality, high definition content and prepare them for the digital convergence of tomorrow where the fusion of consumer electronics and IT will continue to progress.
> 
> "We carefully assessed the long-term impact of continuing the so-called 'next-generation format war' and concluded that a swift decision will best help the market develop," said Atsutoshi Nishida, President and CEO of Toshiba Corporation. "While we are disappointed for the company and more importantly, for the consumer, the real mass market opportunity for high definition content remains untapped and Toshiba is both able and determined to use our talent, technology and intellectual property to make digital convergence a reality."
> 
> Toshiba will continue to lead innovation, in a wide range of technologies that will drive mass market access to high definition content. These include high capacity NAND flash memory, small form factor hard disk drives, next generation CPUs, visual processing, and wireless and encryption technologies. The company expects to make forthcoming announcements around strategic progress in these convergence technologies.
> 
> Toshiba will begin to reduce shipments of HD DVD players and recorders to retail channels, aiming for cessation of these businesses by the end of March 2008. Toshiba also plans to end volume production of HD DVD disk drives for such applications as PCs and games in the same timeframe, yet will continue to make efforts to meet customer requirements. The company will continue to assess the position of notebook PCs with integrated HD DVD drives within the overall PC business relative to future market demand.
> 
> This decision will not impact on Toshiba's commitment to standard DVD, and the company will continue to market conventional DVD players and recorders. Toshiba intends to continue to contribute to the development of the DVD industry, as a member of the DVD Forum, an international organization with some 200 member companies, committed to the discussion and defining of optimum optical disc formats for the consumer and the related industries.
> 
> Toshiba also intends to maintain collaborative relations with the companies who joined with Toshiba in working to build up the HD DVD market, including Universal Studios, Paramount Pictures, and DreamWorks Animation and major Japanese and European content providers on the entertainment side, as well as leaders in the IT industry, including Microsoft, Intel, and HP. Toshiba will study possible collaboration with these companies for future business opportunities, utilizing the many assets generated through the development of HD DVD.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Remember, please be polite, be gracious, be kind (and rewind your DVDs before taking them back.) 

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## chris0

Put a fork in it, it's done. I expect we'll be hearing from Universal and Paramount later today or tomorrow.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Something interesting and worth noting... Many people speculated on Toshiba's silence in recent days, and suggested that silence was a confirmation of sort (i.e. they were not denying it, so they must be considering it). It would appear this is correct.

So... it's only fair to note something suspiciously missing from this Toshiba announcement. No mention of Blu ray. They go out of their way to mention lots of other technologies, both SD and HD, that they will be committing to in the future... but I noticed nothing announced in the way of Blu ray.

If we take recent history and speculate about that... it implies that Toshiba is not looking to introduce Blu ray players into the market as soon as they stop with HD DVD. Otherwise this would have been an opportunity to at least give a footnote's mention to that.

Could be interesting if they pull out of HD DVD, but don't jump in to Blu ray.


----------



## chris0

They did mentions Blu-Ray in the Q&A...

Q: Any plans to adopt Blu-ray?
A: No plans at all, not at this moment.

Q: Are there no plans for next gen optical disc at all?
A: We don't have any plans to announce at this time.

That's from Engadget Japan, reporting from the press conference.


----------



## reweiss

I am very psyched. I'm the techie guru among my friends and family and people have been asking me for the past 2 years which format to support. I have been telling them to hold off because you don't want to buy the 'betamax' of HD disc formats. They've been asking when will we know which technology to buy, and I had been telling them I expected somewhere around Dec'08/Jan'09 I thought someone would be pushed out of the race. I am so glad to see it happened quite a bit earlier than I expected. 

I plan on telling everyone to hold on a little longer and wait for the Blu Ray sales to increase and the prices to drop (could be almost affordable by the holidays).

Does anyone care to make a prediction on how the prices will start to slide this year and next? (It looks like right now the avg price for a Blu Ray player is about $400 and I've seen sales for Blue Ray discs going between $15 and $27)


----------



## apexmi

reweiss said:


> I plan on telling everyone to hold on a little longer and wait for the Blu Ray sales to increase and the prices to drop (could be almost affordable by the holidays).
> 
> Does anyone care to make a prediction on how the prices will start to slide this year and next? (It looks like right now the avg price for a Blu Ray player is about $400 and I've seen sales for Blue Ray discs going between $15 and $27)


I think the opposite will happen without the competition the price slide will slow considerably, if not for HD DVD we would still have Blu players @ $700+ on average. They only dropped prices to compete with HD DVD not each other.


----------



## raott

apexmi said:


> I think the opposite will happen without the competition the price slide will slow considerably, if not for HD DVD we would still have Blu players @ $700+ on average. They only dropped prices to compete with HD DVD not each other.


The competition is still there. Blu Ray still has to compete with standard DVD and the only way for many to adopt is for the price to continue to drop.


----------



## Tom Robertson

And competition still exists between hardware manufacturers.


----------



## syphix

Blu-ray has LOTS of competition still just on the HD side of things (separate from trying to get DVD user to adopt their format): DirecTV, DISH Network, cable companies, any VOD service offering HD, Apple (iTunes), Microsoft's XBOX Live Marketplace, etc. etc. They should reduce their prices at a regular rate as manufacturing becomes cheaper. Now that HD DVD is dead, other manufacturers who made BOTH Blu-ray and HD DVD can focus solely on Blu-ray, perhaps helping reduce costs.


----------



## cadet502

This from Forbes this morning;

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2008/02/18/singulus-blu-ray-markets-equity-cx_po_0218markets07.html



> .....Along with Sony Corp. (nyse: SNE - news - people ), Singulus is the only other big producer of machines that make Blu-ray discs--and it is a lucrative business.
> 
> DVD-makers like Bertelsmann or Cinram must buy whole new machines for producing Blu-Ray discs, and each one costs some $1.2 million. Making Blu-ray discs is far more expensive than making HD DVD discs, which requires companies to simply upgrade their existing DVD disc makers for $30,000. .....


----------



## PCampbell

I had a Betamax ans loved it but I am happy I waited this time.


----------



## BudShark

<--- Looks around and waits patiently for the ensuing flood of people who "jump" in to announce Toshiba pulled the plug and provide links to various news reports...

sigh


----------



## spoonman

apexmi said:


> I think the opposite will happen without the competition the price slide will slow considerably, if not for HD DVD we would still have Blu players @ $700+ on average. They only dropped prices to compete with HD DVD not each other.


There is lots of competition. There are several CE companies making Blu-Ray players. And now that more people will be buying them you will see the prices drop faster then with this whole war thing going on.


----------



## spoonman

BudShark said:


> <--- Looks around and waits patiently for the ensuing flood of people who "jump" in to announce Toshiba pulled the plug and provide links to various news reports...
> 
> sigh


That was happening over at AVS...


----------



## turey22

i am so glad i bought that PS3. YES!


----------



## BudShark

Tom Robertson said:


> Toshiba Press release:


Tibber - did you *really* set your alarm for 3AM (1AM mountain) to be the first to quote this press release????


----------



## mridan

This is great news,now one format ,lets move on.I thought after Warners announcement it would have been a matter of weeks before Toshiba gave up.But then there were reports this thing would drag out until Christmas,I'm glad it ended sooner than later.To bad the CE industry couldn't of settled on one format two years ago.


----------



## machavez00

I'm gad I bought only 3 movies. I received 7 free, so at ±$30 a movie I was paid $10 to to take my A2


----------



## machavez00

mridan said:


> This is great news,now one format ,lets move on.I thought after Warners announcement it would have been a matter of weeks before Toshiba gave up.But then there were reports this thing would drag out until Christmas,I'm glad it ended sooner than later.To bad the CE industry couldn't of settled on one format two years ago.


Unlike he who shall not be name believed, it was Wal-Mart's move to BD that sealed the deal. Oh and the Porno studios went BD as well:grin:


----------



## mridan

machavez00 said:


> I'm gad I bought only 3 movies. I received 7 free, so at ±$30 a movie I was paid $10 to to take my A2


machavez,off topic ,but I love the pictures of your dogs


----------



## Mike728

chris0 said:


> If you get a player that has analog outs and have a receiver with analog ins then you can enjoy some of the new audio. Many people don't realize that they don't necessarily need to upgrade their receiver.


I use those for DVD-A and SACD. Another victory for Sony right there. They're on a roll...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, that's it. Game over then. So I spend the next several months sucking every bit of content out of my HDDVD discs, and move on.


----------



## Mike728

I think the market for dual players has just increased.


----------



## FogCutter

Since WalMart ended this war, should they move on to Iraq? More importantly, will this thread be renamed the *Blu-Ray Victorious Thread*?

Sony's strategy was good this time -- rather than rely on technical superiority they won this battle at the studio and retailer level.

I am so glad I didn't buy an HD-DVD recorder.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Mike728 said:


> I think the market for dual players has just increased.


That would explain why Philips/LG was ramping down production volumes of the SuperBlu over the last month.

I may not work there anymore, but I still have little birdies chirping to me... :lol:


----------



## Jason Nipp

Bring on the Bourne Box set in BD.......


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I can imagine that there will be dual players for some time but they will be harder to come by, and expensive.


----------



## RAD

Stuart Sweet said:


> I can imagine that there will be dual players for some time but they will be harder to come by, and expensive.


I think what you see now is what you'll have in that area, especially if Universal/Paramount pull their support and go only BD. Why would a CE company spend the $'s on a device for a market that won't grow?


----------



## HD AV

Toshiba has announced they are dropping production and sales of HD DVD players. BD is the winner. The format war is over. Sorry for those that bet on HD DVD. I have both and at least I only have 14 HD DVDs. I'm glad that the majority of mine are BD and I got a PS3. At least it is upgradable via software for future capabilities added to BD. P.S. I'm not a gamer, but, whatch out, Guitar Hero III is addicting.


----------



## Cholly

Mods -- perhaps it's time to close this thread now that the "war" is over. There is no need for Blu-ray Disc supporter to smirk and say "I told you so." There's no need for more childish arguments from either faction.


----------



## spoonman

machavez00 said:


> Unlike he who shall not be name believed, it was Wal-Mart's move to BD that sealed the deal. Oh and the Porno studios went BD as well:grin:


I read somewhere that they knew they were going to drop the format, but not very quick. They as well as Netflix wanted to force them to do it quickly and not at the end of the year...but it was a rumor....


----------



## lisakson

I wonder what Microsoft will do now since HD-DVD lost the war?? Will they replace the HD-DVD player they sell (For the X-Box 360) with a Blue-Ray version?

Enquirering minds want to know


----------



## FogCutter

lisakson said:


> I wonder what Microsoft will do now since HD-DVD lost the war?? Will they replace the HD-DVD player they sell (For the X-Box 360) with a Blue-Ray version?
> 
> Enquirering minds want to know


Good point. MSFT had a substantial bet on HD-DVD for computers as well. On the hardware side, HD-DVD drives were outselling BluRay drives 10:1 last year. I wonder if HD-DVD will live on as a computer component much as Panasonic's DVD-RAM did for so long?

I'm so glad Toshiba folded so soon. Now we have one format and therefore one clear upgrade path.

Any bets on how long it will take DVD to die out?


----------



## lisakson

FogCutter said:


> Any bets on how long it will take DVD to die out?


I would guess that SD DVD format will be around to some time. While the cost of HD equipment is not as bad as it used to be, some people still don't want to spend money on a new HD-T.V. and the equipment that goes with it. So my bet is that SD DVD will stick around for awhile


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Microsoft has already made a non-statement, saying they haven't decided yet.


----------



## BudShark

Cholly said:


> Mods -- perhaps it's time to close this thread now that the "war" is over. There is no need for Blu-ray Disc supporter to smirk and say "I told you so." There's no need for more childish arguments from either faction.


:grin: I told you so.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The thread will stay open until it dies a natural death. There still seems to be some activity in it.


----------



## Mike728

Jason Nipp said:


> That would explain why Philips/LG was ramping down production volumes of the SuperBlu over the last month.
> 
> I may not work there anymore, but I still have little birdies chirping to me... :lol:


More than likely it was because of their poor performing players. The new Samsung looks very promising, though.


----------



## FogCutter

lisakson said:


> I would guess that SD DVD format will be around to some time. While the cost of HD equipment is not as bad as it used to be, some people still don't want to spend money on a new HD-T.V. and the equipment that goes with it. So my bet is that SD DVD will stick around for awhile


I think you're right. And the upconversions are darned good while the public is straddling the formats. The manufacturers will have to decide whether to buy new SD-DVD mills or jump to BluRay eventually, but that will take years.

Didn't Toshiba and Phillips own the SD-DVD format?

Guess it's Sony's turn this time.

Personally I appreciate the higher data density of BluRay. I recently started video editing in HD, and man, that eats the gigabytes. I've nearly filled a terabyte drive in less than six months and I need to start looking at archival backups. BluRay just holds more now and I read that someone is testing a 100 GB recordable BluRay disk. Bring it on.

I like the idea of using a single format for backup and presentation, plus the more machines I have that can play it back the less likely I'll have a show stopping failure near a deadline.

Now I can buy a BluRay burner and drives without having to worry about being on the wrong side of the battle and getting to do it all again down the road.

Might just go completely crazy and buy a BluRay player today. I have a nice spot ready for it on top of my HD-DVD player.


----------



## lisakson

lisakson said:


> I wonder what Microsoft will do now since HD-DVD lost the war?? Will they replace the HD-DVD player they sell (For the X-Box 360) with a Blue-Ray version?
> 
> Enquirering minds want to know


Here is some info I found this.

Microsoft does not expect sales of its Xbox 360 game console to suffer if Toshiba discontinues HD DVD technology, Microsoft said in a statement on Monday. 
"We do not believe the recent reports about HD DVD will have any material impact on the Xbox 360 platform or our position in the marketplace," the company said. "We will wait until we hear from Toshiba before announcing any specific plans around the Xbox 360 HD DVD player."

Xbox 360 supports a plug-in HD DVD accessory that allows customers to view high definition DVDs produced only with this Toshiba technology.

Toshiba sources said on Saturday that the company is preparing to exit the HD DVD business, thereby surrendering a two-year battle to control the format of next-generation DVDs. The Nikkei business daily has reported that Toshiba plans to make an announcement on Tuesday.

Customers would be left to buy high-definition DVDs produced with Blu-ray, a technology controlled by Sony.

The Microsoft statement pledged that Xbox 360 customers would continue to be able to consume high-definition movies, television programs, and DVDs they already own.

In January, a Microsoft executive said the company would be open to supporting Blu-ray technology for its Xbox 360 machine.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Cholly said:


> Mods -- perhaps it's time to close this thread now that the "war" is over. There is no need for Blu-ray Disc supporter to smirk and say "I told you so." There's no need for more childish arguments from either faction.


I echo Shark.... "I told you so!" :grin:

But seriously, I have been spanked many times over my preference toward Blu Ray.... To the point I had people calling me names.... over at AVS.... and that happened cause I made a statement that I preferred Blu.... and I was not being cocky, just made an opinion and even labeled it as an opinion...... so now that the Blu people have a chance to regain the self esteem that the HD people stripped you want the thread to be closed so the same cannot happen to you guys?

Charlie I like ya man.... But paybacks a B^*&#..... :lol:


----------



## syphix

I initially liked Blu-ray, but then shifted to HD DVD because of the unfinished "profiles" of Blu-ray, and the region-free-ness of HD DVD (the $200 XBOX 360 drive didn't hurt my decision, either). I also felt it was the natural progression and the name alone would help sell it: HD DVD is...an HD DVD -- what the hell is "Blu-ray"?? 

I'm a little ticked, but I'll get over it and probably buy a Blu-ray player when they get down to having a 2.0 Profile player for $250 or so.


----------



## Jason Nipp

FogCutter said:


> Didn't Toshiba and Phillips own the SD-DVD format?


Nope...

The DVD war was Toshiba and Matsu$hita (Panasonic) against Sony and Philips.

And the DVD (Digital Versatile Disc) is actually a trademark of Philips. Toshiba had it own Super MMDC format, but when all 4 party's made the truce through the DVD Consortium it was the DVD name that stuck even though it was not the actual Sony/Philips DVD format that won.


----------



## SteveHas

Jason Nipp said:


> I echo Shark.... "I told you so!" :grin:
> 
> But seriously, I have been spanked many times over my preference toward Blu Ray.... To the point I had people calling me names.... over at AVS.... and that happened cause I made a statement that I preferred Blu.... and I was not being cocky, just made an opinion and even labeled it as an opinion...... so now that the Blu people have a chance to regain the self esteem that the HD people stripped you want the thread to be closed so the same cannot happen to you guys?
> 
> Charlie I like ya man.... But paybacks a B^*&#..... :lol:


+1
whats up with AVS
man those guys are vicious,


----------



## Tom Robertson

BudShark said:


> Tibber - did you *really* set your alarm for 3AM (1AM mountain) to be the first to quote this press release????


Actually I'm somewhat often still up at that time. (In a previous life, I would exchange emails with my director of development in real time at 3am. He be getting up, I'd be almost going to bed.) :


Jason Nipp said:


> Bring on the Bourne Box set in BD.......


Yeah, baby! BRING IT!!!



Cholly said:


> Mods -- perhaps it's time to close this thread now that the "war" is over. There is no need for Blu-ray Disc supporter to smirk and say "I told you so." There's no need for more childish arguments from either faction.


<moderator response>So far the childish has died down, thanks to all the good readers here. This thread still has a purpose to talk about transitions, studio updates, and reactions. At some point it will unsticky, then rise and fall like any thread. </mod>

Thanks everyone for playing nice. Thanks also for the updates.

And thanks in advance for the future updates you'll find for all of us.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Carl Spock

Owned a Pinto. _Check_
Voted for McGovern. _Check_
Sold everyone in my family a Betamax. _Check_
Early on, bought a LaserDisc player. _Check_
Had an extensive library of cassettes. _Check_
Purchased a HD DVD player. _Check_


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mr. C. Spock (C Spock run, run Spock run...) 

If you had an early LD and early cassettes, then I would say you bought those at the perfect times. They were the best of their generation technology-wise and packaging-wise. My LD and cassettes both had nice long runs, as did my SD DVDs.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## machavez00

the "good thing" is most of got paid to get their HD DVD player. Price paid($99-$199)-7 to 10 free movies= free


----------



## Tom Robertson

I just spoke with Oppo Digital's VP Product Development, Jason Liao. (Very nice man to talk to.)

Oppo is definitely working on their Blu-ray player. They are still fairly early in their development cycle. Oppo has signed technology agreements for key licenses and semi-conductors as well as obtained the reference sample information. Presently are working on the feature set of the unit.

No current estimated time line for shipments to start, alas. (I offered to drive over and pick mine up.) 

Sometime this summer they expect to have more concrete information about features and time line.

Cheers,
Tom (anxiously waiting!)

(To quote a prodigious moderator here: BRING IT!!!!)


----------



## Jason Nipp

machavez00 said:


> the "good thing" is most of got paid to get their HD DVD player. Price paid($99-$199)-7 to 10 free movies= free


I know several people that paid $399 + on theirs....

This is the risk one takes to be an early adopter.... It could have gone the other way as well. When there's a war... rarely is there a true victory.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Tom Robertson said:


> (To quote a prodigious moderator here: BRING IT!!!!)


Why thank you! :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

I haven't been watching either this thread or the war in general .. I guess now I can start to look at devices and maybe even buy one in for Christmas :lol:. I'm slow with some electronics ..


----------



## BubblePuppy

rcoleman111 said:


> One complaint I've heard about some of the Samsung standalone Blu-ray players is that some functionality is missing, like having to start at the beginning of a disc if you stop it instead of resuming where it left off. Another common complaint with some models is the amount of time it takes for the movie to start playing after the disc is inserted.


My first BD player was a Samsung and I returned it because of both of those complaints.


----------



## machavez00

mridan said:


> machavez, off topic ,but I love the pictures of your dogs


Thanks, they were using their Jedi mind powers to get treats.


----------



## mridan

machavez00 said:


> Thanks, they were using their Jedi mind powers to get treats.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Universal going Blu

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Universal/Breaking:_Universal__Studios_Goes_Blu/1483

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1007


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> I echo Shark.... "I told you so!" :grin:
> 
> But seriously, I have been spanked many times over my preference toward Blu Ray.... To the point I had people calling me names.... over at AVS.... and that happened cause I made a statement that I preferred Blu.... and I was not being cocky, just made an opinion and even labeled it as an opinion...... so now that the Blu people have a chance to regain the self esteem that the HD people stripped you want the thread to be closed so the same cannot happen to you guys?
> 
> Charlie I like ya man.... But paybacks a B^*&#..... :lol:


yeah but as we have seen on THIS thread the True Blu (those we dont speak of) have thrown more axes and waved more pom poms.



> Any bets on how long it will take DVD to die out?


If the prices stay the same on BR players...a loooooooooooooong time....if they start lowering them, could be quicker. i was getting a PS3 with or without the BR player....looks like it worked out.



> Bring on the Bourne Box set in BD.......


See....ya should have grabbed the $99 HDDVD....could have been enjoying them right now...that price really was a win win situation for anyone who already owned a BR player. Don't have to wait for a release on one format.


----------



## dhhaines

Drew2k said:


> Right off the bat, I know one disadvantage for the PS3 for me is that it's a Bluetooth remote and I'd have to pay extra for an IR converter to let it work with my Harmony universal remote.


 That is correct... and the reason I sold my PS3. That and it wasn't backward compatable with PS2 games unless you paid another $100. I didn't need to have another remote or another gaming system taking up space. If prices come down on a standalone I'll buy another one.


----------



## FogCutter

I would love to buy an Oppo BluRay Player.


----------



## smiddy

Wow, you go to work and have limited access to the outside world and look what happens, all types fo fun occurs. Having been a wait-ee, I am glad for that, I can make a definitive decision on things now. I originally was going to put together an HTPC with both, but now I only need to worry about Blu Ray. Life does get simple-er at times, here's one I have to love.


----------



## Carl Spock

Tom Robertson said:


> Mr. C. Spock (C Spock run, run Spock run...)
> 
> If you had an early LD and early cassettes, then I would say you bought those at the perfect times. They were the best of their generation technology-wise and packaging-wise. My LD and cassettes both had nice long runs, as did my SD DVDs.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom, totally agreed. I don't regret any of my purchases, including my HD DVD player. I'm into enjoying the software and that took all of this hardware. Obsolence is a function of our advancing technology and really, only LP phonograph records, have had a 50 year run. Someday, all my CDs will be as out of date as my Beta tapes. So be it. It's time to dance to the music today.

About the only discontinued product I miss is Team Flakes cereal. I loved that stuff and it's no longer made. I'd give up my LaserDisc CAV copy of Dracula, one of only 1,000 pressed, for a case of Team Flakes cereal.


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> See....ya should have grabbed the $99 HDDVD....could have been enjoying them right now...that price really was a win win situation for anyone who already owned a BR player. Don't have to wait for a release on one format.


Not quite, I want the full HD (1080P) experience.... and besides.....I already have Bourne Ultimatum on HD-DVD.... Ah *Slap*, you learned something new about one of the BLU Cheerleaders today...


----------



## syphix

mridan said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Universal going Blu
> 
> http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Universal/Breaking:_Universal__Studios_Goes_Blu/1483
> 
> http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1007


AND Paramount (according to EngadgetHD).


----------



## Jason Nipp

dhhaines said:


> That is correct... and the reason I sold my PS3. That and it wasn't backward compatable with PS2 games unless you paid another $100. I didn't need to have another remote or another gaming system taking up space. If prices come down on a standalone I'll buy another one.


*WRONG!* PS3 plays PS2 games just fine.... And I did not pay an extra $100. Who told you that? The only PS2 game I could not play is Guitar Hero... And that was because I could not plug the Guitar in. But now that Guitar Hero 3 is out.... That has changed.

The PS2 file system is available for free download to registered Playstation owners through the Playstation online store via your PS3.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

reweiss said:


> I plan on telling everyone to hold on a little longer and wait for the Blu Ray sales to increase and the prices to drop (could be almost affordable by the holidays).


You realise, I hope, that this would be the surest way to ensure Blu ray fails too, right?

If you tell everyone to wait and not buy Blu ray... and if you are successful in that endeavor, then Blu ray will follow HD DVD very quickly into the night. I'm still curious to see what will happen, and would not be completely surprised if people stay on the fence as you suggest, and that puts the nails into a Blu ray coffin. Blu ray might get a better tombstone than HD DVD, but could end up in the same cemetary.


----------



## machavez00

Jason Nipp said:


> *WRONG!* PS3 plays PS2 games just fine.... And I did not pay an extra $100. Who told you that? The only PS2 game I could not play is Guitar Hero... And that was because I could not plug the Guitar in. But now that Guitar Hero 3 is out.... That has changed.
> 
> The PS2 file system is available for free download to registered Playstation owners through the Playstation online store via your PS3.


The 40GB PS3 is not backward compatible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Retail_configurations


----------



## Jason Nipp

HDMe said:


> You realize, I hope, that this would be the surest way to ensure Blu ray fails too, right?
> 
> If you tell everyone to wait and not buy Blu ray... and if you are successful in that endeavor, then Blu ray will follow HD DVD very quickly into the night. I'm still curious to see what will happen, and would not be completely surprised if people stay on the fence as you suggest, and that puts the nails into a Blu ray coffin. Blu ray might get a better tombstone than HD DVD, but could end up in the same cemetery.


Personally I believe that a lot of the people stayed on the fence to wait for one unified format. Too many have lost the investments on Beta, LD, MD, LP, and Cassettes, and they did not want to be left holding the bag with a losing format.

Now that it's official, I truly believe sales will pick up.


----------



## Cholly

Jason Nipp said:


> I echo Shark.... "I told you so!" :grin:
> 
> ...so now that the Blu people have a chance to regain the self esteem that the HD people stripped you want the thread to be closed so the same cannot happen to you guys?
> 
> Charlie I like ya man.... But paybacks a B^*&#..... :lol:


Nope ... I'm just tired of the backbiting from both the Blu-ray and the HD DVD fans.  As I've said before, I bought HD DVD players because of price, and like others, the free DVD's compensated for most of the cost. If Blu-ray had been cost competitive, I would have bought that format. Now, I'll wait until profile 2.0 players come out and are priced in the $200 - $250 range. Although you can now get a PS3 at Target for $399 and get a $40 gift card, I'm not interested, since I don't want a gaming console in the Home Theater area. Also, I'm given to understand that the PS3 is inclined to run hot. For those reasons alone, I prefer a standalone player.


----------



## Jason Nipp

machavez00 said:


> The 40GB PS3 is not backward compatible
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Retail_configurations


Are you sure the wiki farmer that contributed that is right? I had never heard of anyone that has not been able to play a PS2 disc.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Cholly said:


> Although you can now get a PS3 at Target for $399 and get a $40 gift card, I'm not interested, since I don't want a gaming console in the Home Theater area. Also, I'm given to understand that the PS3 is inclined to run hot. For those reasons alone, I prefer a standalone player.


Somebody posted a link in the deals area for a $299 PS3.

Yes, it gets hot, I will not deny that, but I have never had it shut down or melt a disc. I just don't recommend putting it in a fully enclosed cabinet.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jason Nipp said:


> Personally I believe that a lot of the people stayed on the fence to wait for one unified format. Too many have lost the investments on Beta, LD, MD, LP, and Cassettes, and they did not want to be left holding the bag with a losing format.
> 
> Now that it's official, I truly believe sales will pick up.


Me! Me! ME! That is exactly were I was until about 12 hours ago (was starting to look for sales this weekend, tho.) 

I'm already working on the first player(s) and first disks (may return a few recently received gifts to replace with Blu.)

Yes, my expenditures were all on SD until one format was truly declared. The studio's loss, they couldda had me buy a V8!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Geronimo

Jason Nipp said:


> Are you sure the wiki farmer that contributed that is right? I had never heard of anyone that has not been able to play a PS2 disc.


The 40GB is not backward compatible. the 80 GB is but by means of an emualtor. The 20Gb and 60Gb versions were backward compatible with hardware I believe,


----------



## Jason Nipp

Geronimo said:


> The 40GB is not backward compatible. the 80 GB is but by means of an emualtor. The 20Gb and 60Gb versions were backward compatible with hardware I believe,


Anyone know why they changed it?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Geronimo said:


> The 40GB is not backward compatible. the 80 GB is but by means of an emualtor. The 20Gb and 60Gb versions were backward compatible with hardware I believe,


That is my understanding as well... although I neither own nor intend to buy a PS3. I haven't even connected my PS2 in years.. and while I have no personal grudge against Sony, do not want to buy a PS3 to use only as a Blu ray player. That would be a fine option if I also still wanted to play games... but since my interest in that arena has waned over the years, I prefer to go back to the fence and wait for cheap players if that comes to pass in a year or two.

One thing's for sure... if I wait long enough I'll either get Blu ray cheap OR it will go away too... so no need for me to rush out and buy tomorrow.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jason Nipp said:


> Anyone know why they changed it?


My understanding is that it was a 2-stage process... They went from hardware to software emulation to save money... but then the software emulation was problematic, or at least less compatible... and so they went for more cost-reduction and just took out the compatibility entirely on the next model.

It remains to be seen if this will come back now that the war is over and they have less need to be price-competitive... but I suspect the compatibility is gone in a general sense.


----------



## RAD

Jason Nipp said:


> Anyone know why they changed it?


$$$$$, anything to reduce the price, and to get people that want the feature to spend $100 more. Besides pulling the PS2 compatability they removed the SACD support, the media card readers and 2 of the 4 USB ports on the 20GB model.


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> Not quite, I want the full HD (1080P) experience.... and besides.....I already have Bourne Ultimatum on HD-DVD.... Ah *Slap*, you learned something new about one of the BLU Cheerleaders today...


:lol: You weren't considered a cheerleader...now if you were in here posting the "blu is cool, red drools" type of post...then yeah you would be (you know to whom i was referring).

also, the 40gb isn't backward compatible...which is why i got rid of it and grabbed a 20 gb (which is now a 270gb with my external on it)...Sony raped the back. comp. out of the games system, so that they weren't losing a fortune on each player.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs...10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665275947


> Play B3YOND™ your wildest dreams with the unparalleled PLAYSTATION®3 computer entertainment system. Featuring blistering processing speeds, eye-popping graphics and up to 7.1 channels of digital surround sound, the future of gaming has arrived. Powered by the revolutionary Cell Broadband Engine™ and featuring a built-in Blu-ray Disc™ drive, you'll experience a whole new generation in high definition gaming and digital media. Enjoy the pristine picture quality of Blu-ray Disc™ movies featuring Full HD 1080p video and up to 7.1 channels of high resolution audio. The PLAYSTATION®3 computer entertainment system is ready for the future with support for advanced HDMI™ v1.3 spec features such as xvColor™ and Deep Color. Plus, it will breath new life into your existing DVD collection with 1080p video upscaling.
> 
> The PLAYSTATION™3 computer entertainment system gives you unprecedented control, access and enjoyment of a full range of digital media. Stream and store your favorite MP3 music, pictures or videos from any Windows Media Center compatible PC*. Connect an optional compatible keyboard and mouse and surf the internet on your television**. The PLAYSTATION®3 40GB system also comes standard with built-in 802.11 b/g wireless internet, making it possible to download playable demos, movie trailers, online content and more.
> 
> Note: This model will not play PS one® or PlayStation® 2 games. For compatibility with all PlayStation systems, please check out the PLAYSTATION®3 80GB here.
> 
> Get the latest PLAYSTATION®3 Software Update here
> 
> Did you know?
> PLAYSTATION®3 and PSP® play nice together. Easily exchange media like photos, videos and music from your PLAYSTATION®3 system to your PSP® system. Plus, get ready to witness an explosion in creativity as developers take on the challenge of integrating the PSP system into PLAYSTATION®3 games.


----------



## Jason Nipp

RAD said:


> $$$$$, anything to reduce the price, and to get people that want the feature to spend $100 more. Besides pulling the PS2 compatability they removed the SACD support, the media card readers and 2 of the 4 USB ports on the 20GB model.


So basically a cost reduction, and to offer a greater cost benefit on the "Premium" offering?

OK I get it. Thanks


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> ...grabbed a 20 gb (which is now a 270gb with my external on it)


 Question wolf, how well does it work with an external HDD? What are you able to store on it, demos, games, game data? I was going to upgrade my internal HDD, I have one of the earliest models that actually came with Sony instruction on how to replace the internal drive... They may still do this but a buddy of mine that got the 80Gb model said he did not get the HDD replacement instruction book.

Can I run my PS3 entirely of an External drive?


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> Question wolf, how well does it work with an external HDD? What are you able to store on it, demos, games, game data? I was going to upgrade my internal HDD, I have one of the earliest models that actually came with Sony instruction on how to replace the internal drive... They may still do this but a buddy of mine that got the 80Gb model said he did not get the HDD replacement instruction book.
> 
> Can I run my PS3 entirely of an External drive?


i followed this and it worked like a charm and took 10 min. to do ...as far as running the whole thing on it, i dont know.

http://www.wikihow.com/Add-an-External-Hard-Drive-to-a-Playstation-3


----------



## dhhaines

Jason Nipp said:


> *WRONG!* PS3 plays PS2 games just fine.... And I did not pay an extra $100. Who told you that? The only PS2 game I could not play is Guitar Hero... And that was because I could not plug the Guitar in. But now that Guitar Hero 3 is out.... That has changed.
> 
> The PS2 file system is available for free download to registered Playstation owners through the Playstation online store via your PS3.


 There are 2 versions of the pS3, the one they are selling for $399(the 40gb special) will not play PS2 games. The extra $100 I was talking about was to buy the other version of the PS3. Sony changed up the hardware on the 40gb version.

I happened to get the 40gb version.

From Sony site: [quote\]40GB PLAYSTATION®3 System
This model of the PLAYSTATION®3 system is designed to play PLAYSTATION®3 format software and has limited backward compatibility. This system is not compatible with, and will not play, PlayStation®2 format software. Some PlayStation® format software may play on this system.[/quote]


----------



## Jason Nipp

dhhaines said:


> There are 2 versions of the pS3, the one they are selling for $399(the 40gb special) will not play PS2 games. The extra $100 I was talking about was to buy the other version of the PS3. Sony changed up the hardware on the 40gb version.
> 
> I happened to get the 40gb version.


Ya, the others set me straight already, sorry for jumping on ya.


----------



## Jason Nipp

machavez00 said:


> no hair left


OK calm down, I just got an infraction for questioning moderation.... :nono2: "sigh"

Who said we don't have senses of humor.....


----------



## apexmi

Jason Nipp said:


> Are you sure the wiki farmer that contributed that is right? I had never heard of anyone that has not been able to play a PS2 disc.


I have a 40gb PS3 and they do NOT play PS2 software


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> OK calm down, I just got an infraction for questioning moderation.... :nono2: "sigh"
> 
> Who said we don't have senses of humor.....


lol...sorry man....but it was funny though.

also, i forgot to mention, yes you cant DL demos and stuff to the external...it gives you the option at the download screen...as far as moving things to it, i haven't tried...i have just dl'd right to it...also makes it really handy to move files over to the ps3.


----------



## dhhaines

Jason Nipp said:


> Ya, the others set me straight already, sorry for jumping on ya.


 That's okay ... I was a little ticked off at Sony after I got it home and it didn't work with my PS2 games. I thought they were charging less because of a smaller HDD, not a hardware change. We have about 20+ PS2 games including my daughters so it didn't fit in right now.

I guess I should have looked it up before buying that version. I didn't lose any money on the deal, sold it to a neighbor for what i paid.


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> lol...sorry man....but it was funny though.
> 
> also, i forgot to mention, yes you cant DL demos and stuff to the external...it gives you the option at the download screen...as far as moving things to it, i haven't tried...i have just dl'd right to it...also makes it really handy to move files over to the ps3.


Can you do me a favor? Move one of your demos to the external and see if it is still playable from the external. I have 2 500 GB My books and before I steal the one from my 722 I want to make sure this will work the way I want it to. Otherwise I will be replacing the Internal drive... nd that is really limited right now as 160Gb 2.5" drives are very expensive IMHO.


----------



## Jason Nipp

dhhaines said:


> That's okay ... I was a little ticked off at Sony after I got it home and it didn't work with my PS2 games. I thought they were charging less because of a smaller HDD, not a hardware change. We have about 20+ PS2 games including my daughters so it didn't fit in right now.
> 
> I guess I should have looked it up before buying that version. I didn't lose any money on the deal, sold it to a neighbor for what i paid.


I have a 20 and a 60 model. I actually like my 20 very much. I'd probably look to ebay for a 20 and then upgrade the HDD. You would then be able to play the PS2 discs.

But anyone who does this should make sure they DL the latest software as the newer version added a lot of cool features.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK, I think we need to head back to topic on this one...


----------



## jims

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK, I think we need to head back to topic on this one...


I agree, but do think it would be good to reopen the PS3 thread. Mainly because I am waiting for the day and capability of media sharing HR20/HR21 saved programs to a PS3 and then using a PSP on the home network and remote play to view it anywhere in the house...

Stretching it but in theory and interesting idea to try and set up.


----------



## Chris Blount

I don't know about you guys but this whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. I honestly thought that both formats could co-exist and that manufacturers would quickly jump on board with dual format players. This would slightly reduce the consumer confusion and allow the studios to release whatever format they felt appropriate. I'm a little let down that the bottom fell out so quickly.

I am happy owning both formats. I like both. Quite frankly I'm not sure at this point if I'm going to continue buying Blu-Ray discs. The other night I watched a hi-def download on my Apple TV and it looked wonderful. It quickly made me think about the future and how disc based media may become obsolete sooner than we think.

I will continue to enjoy my HD-DVD's. They aren't going away. I will also be using my A-35 for upconverting standard DVD's. My PS3 will actually be seeing less action over the long term especially when digital downloads begin to dominate my household via Apple TV. 

Blu-Ray (Sony and the others) has won the war, but they really aren't out of the woods. They have a much bigger fight ahead and I don't know if they will win that one (as a matter of fact, I'm sure they won't win). 

Ah well, goodbye HD-DVD. It was fun.


----------



## photostudent

Ok, I am old but have always bet on the right horse since 45's beat out 78's. I've never owned a Betamax, Quad receiver, or Dreamcast. Any HD DVD format has about as much chance of succeeding as did Laser Disks. It has five ememies: Upconverted DVD, VOD, DVR and now cost. Even FTTH is on it's heels. In fact my grandkids have stopped staying overnight because we do not have VOD. The fact that Toshiba could not succeed by almost giving HD players away was lack of demand, not a picture quality issue.


----------



## machavez00

lack of media was also a factor. I did not want to buy movies i already had on SD DVD and looked great on an upconvert player


----------



## Cholly

Jason Nipp said:


> So basically a cost reduction, and to offer a greater cost benefit on the "Premium" offering?
> 
> OK I get it. Thanks


Actually, the 40 gig system is now the ONLY system to be sold in Japan, and it's rumored that the same will be true in the USA soon.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Chris Blount said:


> Blu-Ray (Sony and the others) has won the war, but they really aren't out of the woods. They have a much bigger fight ahead and I don't know if they will win that one (as a matter of fact, I'm sure they won't win).


They have won the battle. So far the consumers are losing. Let us not forget that DVRs killed the DVD recorder, iTunes is killing the record store, and on and on. When consumers are let down like this, the time is ripe for a paradigm shift.

It would have been so much better if the two sides had come to a compromise format 2 years ago. In the meantime, there's now DIRECTV On Demand, Pay Per View, Netflix, and the iTunes store.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK, I think we need to head back to topic on this one...


If you will permit me, I do want to make one off-topic comment before getting back to topic.

For as much as I disliked some of the things said by the person-not-being-mentioned-by-name... I also do not like taking pot-shots at someone who is on "vacation" and cannot post. One reason why I never joined the "other" site was because some people who post both here and there were taking pot-shots over there at users here (myself included once) who were not members there.

So I'll argue and debate and discuss, and try to keep things civil, but I don't like beating up on someone who isn't here to defend himself.

Now, back to topic!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Wait, wait, wait. Laser disks had a very long life from the 1978 until 2004. You can even still purchase new players today.

Yes, while they never achieved the mass market status that VHS did, it had a much superior picture and did survive as a viable product.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jims

When I jumped into Hi-Def at Xmas, I was an inch away from getting a HD DVD and decided to get a PS3 first and HD DVD later. This thead for all of the bad has pointed out some of the strengths that HD DVD has had to me. I do love my PS3 because it gave me 3 things (Blueray, current set of games for my kids, and use of their previous set of games). I won't tell you the abuse my older PS2 took at the hands of my kids when they were younger, but enough said at a lot of juice.

I enjoyed using my Beta Camcorder into the late 90's, so I do believe that the technology doesn't really die. 

I have come enjoy this site and unfortunately this thread has had an American Idol type of guilty pleasure on what people will say next. I do think that Chris and Stuart are two people who have tried to make lemonade out of lemons.

The next couple of years will be interesting as the fight for DBS vs. Net vs. traditional media starts to unfold. And a point I was making in my last post is that the PS3, Directv, and PC type machines are now shifting towards wanting to be a media solution that recognizes other devices in themselves. I don't think there is one solution, as there had been in the past but think it is evolving.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

machavez00 said:


> lack of media was also a factor. I did not want to buy movies i already had on SD DVD and looked great on an upconvert player


I have several movies that I opted not to buy HD DVD upgrades for because either the movie wasn't *that* special to do so OR because the quality of my DVD was fine vs re-buying it. I can almost always see the better definition in HD vs SD, but it isn't always worth the additional cost.

For new movies, I was buying HD DVD instead of SD... but I was also buying SD for some things that I couldn't get on HD. I also buy lots of TV-on-DVD so, aside from more recent shows that are airing in HD... the DVDs are just fine for the "classics" to me.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> Wait, wait, wait. Laser disks had a very long life from the 1978 until 2004. You can even still purchase new players today.
> 
> Yes, while they never achieved the mass market status that VHS did, it had a much superior picture and did survive as a viable product.


This is an aspect I hope becomes true for HD DVD as well.. There are still existing movies I want to buy, hoping for some of the already-announced releases as well.. and anticipating some Imports from Europe. In the meantime between now and when/if Blu ray becomes a cheaper option in a year or two.. I'd like to be able to get a few more new HD DVD movies to add to my collection if some of the Import studios continue to support the format.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'll just let the family buy me gifts of their favorite movies on Blu. Otherwise I'm almost as hard to shop for as my wife...


----------



## syphix

Chris Blount said:


> It quickly made me think about the future and how disc based media may become obsolete sooner than we think.


I'm not so sold on that train of thought. Remember: we're all "geeks" on this forum. We tend to adopt new technology a lot quicker than the average person. And I believe the "average person" still likes to have a physical medium to watch movies off of, even if they DO have VOD. The DRM and closed platform that VOD/digital delivery has (i.e., I can't borrow a movie from a friend, they can't borrow one from me, etc.) makes me not a full fledged fan. Plus, there are MANY Americans that simply don't have the bandwidth that VOD/digital delivery requires (my highest speed internet available is 1.5 mbps...FAR too slow for true VOD...especially HD VOD).

I like Warner Brothers' thought process. According to Digital Bits, they're going "balls to the wall" with Blu-ray:


> It's Warner's goal (by mid to late summer) that going forward, EVERY TIME they issue a new catalog special edition on standard DVD, the title will also available day-and-date on Blu-ray Disc as well. [VP of Classic Catalog] George [Feltenstein] wanted to stress Warner's absolute commitment to Blu-ray, not just on the new release front but with catalog material too. They don't want situations where people have to wonder, "Should I buy the DVD now or should I wait for a Blu-ray version?" of a classic title. They intend for that choice to be available day-and-date with every new restoration/special edition release they do. Warner doesn't want there to BE a wait.


Plus, if I buy a movie, I don't want to have to trust that the hard drive it sits on is not going to die. The chance that that hard drive will die? 100%, over a fairly short period. The chance my physical disc will be destroyed? 100%, over a fairly LONG period. The movie studios would LOVE a completely digital delivery model, so they can control it more. That alone puts a bad taste in MY mouth.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Day-and-date released should have been happening from day one, in my opinion. There's lots of stuff I have held back buying on DVD waiting to see if there would be an HD DVD of... This has been one of my complaints about both HD DVD and Blu ray from inception. They just haven't been releasing enough movies.

The studios are playing chicken-or-the-egg... they don't want to release a big movie until they have consumers in large quantity to buy the HD version... but until they release the big movies, people keep sitting on the fence waiting. This, in my opinion, has kept more people on the fence than any "confusion" about the "war".


----------



## dhhaines

syphix said:


> Plus, if I buy a movie, I don't want to have to trust that the hard drive it sits on is not going to die. The chance that that hard drive will die? 100%. The chance my physical disc will be destroyed? Far less. The movie studios would LOVE a completely digital delivery model, so they can control it more. That puts a bad taste in MY mouth.


 That's my biggest complaint about digital media that is not a hard copy in my hand. I've had a lot of harddrives fail over the years, but I've NEVER had a CD/DVD/HD-DVD/BLU-RAY Disc fail.

I want the hardcopy


----------



## RAD

Chris Blount said:


> Quite frankly I'm not sure at this point if I'm going to continue buying Blu-Ray discs.


Just rent them then. Hopefully NetFlix will be able to keep up with BD request (which they aren't now) since the 'war' us just about over.


----------



## Chris Blount

syphix said:


> Plus, if I buy a movie, I don't want to have to trust that the hard drive it sits on is not going to die. The chance that that hard drive will die? 100%, over a fairly short period. The chance my physical disc will be destroyed? 100%, over a fairly LONG period. The movie studios would LOVE a completely digital delivery model, so they can control it more. That alone puts a bad taste in MY mouth.





dhhaines said:


> That's my biggest complaint about digital media that is not a hard copy in my hand. I've had a lot of harddrives fail over the years, but I've NEVER had a CD/DVD/HD-DVD/BLU-RAY Disc fail.
> 
> I want the hardcopy


I can understand where you guys are coming from and I agree. The thing with digital downloads though is that the movie does not sit on your hard drive. It sits in a off-site digital library and you download it as needed. These libraries will continue to grow and make a very viable alternative to storing your own media.

It is true thought that most "regular users" still rely on hard media but the first manufacturer to make digital downloads cheap and easy and available to most everyone will get the pot of gold.


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## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> Wait, wait, wait. Laser disks had a very long life from the 1978 until 2004. You can even still purchase new players today.


Are those old stockpiled "new" players or does someone still manufacuture LD players today?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Old formats have a way of resurfacing. In the 1990s, Beta was used for broadcasting, and Select-A-Vision discs and digital audio tapes were used for data storage. Who knows what use HD-DVD technology will show up in.


----------



## syphix

Chris Blount said:


> ... the first manufacturer to make digital downloads cheap and easy and available to most everyone will get the pot of gold.


I completely agree on that point...but I believe that it is at LEAST one more physical format away. I do whole heartedly believe that Blu-ray is the LAST physical medium for movies for consumers, just as CD is for music. A widespread, FAST, reliable, easy and cheap form of digital downloads will be next. But I don't think that's gonna happen for 8+ years when WiMax, etc. is fully implemented nationwide (i.e., "boonies" included).

We should see a nice 10-12 year lifespan for Blu-ray, same as what DVD has/will have (DVD's are only 10 years old...). I'll be sad when physical media dies, though...as a collector, I appreciate having the actual disc and case.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Old formats have a way of resurfacing. In the 1990s, Beta was used for broadcasting, and Select-A-Vision discs and digital audio tapes were used for data storage. Who knows what use HD-DVD technology will show up in.


Yep... I'm not advocating piracy by any means... but I do think there could be a market (albeit a smaller one) for HD DVD recordables for the home user who is making his own movies OR for compiling various downloaded freebie clips.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I have said before, so I'll say again... I sincerely hope that we do not go to downloadable-only. I loved MP3 when it came out as an option for music on my computer but still prefer buying CDs. I like my archived Dish DVR recordings, but I would not pay for a download that by its very nature is transient and potentially short-lived. I want a physical media.

So... I hope Blu ray does take off, although I've gone on record as being a fence-sitter until it does.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Up till now, I wasn't what one could really label as a fence sitter, however I have limited my investment on movies for both formats.

Next stop... Walmart to buy the Die Hard 4 movie BD set..... 

The thing I wanna know is... will Lucas sit on the fence like he did with DVD? If I recall correctly he lost his a$$ on LD.... and it took him many years to get the trilogy on DVD..... Seeing that remastered to HD might be pretty cool.... As long as it's not the CGI stuff that he did in the DVD special editions.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Somewhere around 2001 I interviewed with a Sony startup company that was building a digital library for ALL your music, no matter what form you had originally purchased: LP, CD, MP3, etc. Their goal was to manage all the DRM for all your needs so you could play streams of your music to any compatible device.

Company didn't succeed (and I'm glad I didn't pursue the job.) But the concept might resurrect itself someday. As long as DRM continues, someone who makes it completely hidden and easy to the normal legitimate users has a chance and that could be an enabler for downloadable content.

As an example, I have about 10 MP3s with DRM that I got free. The original licenses are on a laptop, two laptops ago. Now I have the pain to migrate the licenses to the current laptop if I want to use them again.  I'd much rather rip a CD and be done with it.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Lucas refused to issue DVDs until his "masterpiece" was done the way he wanted it way back in 1978.

Don't have a clue as to why he's waiting this time.


----------



## Steve Mehs

> As an example, I have about 10 MP3s with DRM that I got free. The original licenses are on a laptop, two laptops ago. Now I have the pain to migrate the licenses to the current laptop if I want to use them again. I'd much rather rip a CD and be done with it.


Burn to CD, rerip as MP3, new files, same music, no DRM, takes all of 3 minutes.


----------



## syphix

Steve Mehs said:


> Burn to CD, rerip as MP3, new files, same music, no DRM, takes all of 3 minutes.


Generation loss.

Probably easier: search Google. Crack the DRM*.

We're starting to see a "grassroots" effort (and response in the marketplace) for a DRM-free world in music. Perhaps in the future, the MPAA....ahh....forget it...it was a pipedream...

*This was provided as an example. Proceed at your own risk.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Steve's suggestion is one of the approaches I've considered.


----------



## apexmi

HDMe said:


> Yep... I'm not advocating piracy by any means... but I do think there could be a market (albeit a smaller one) for HD DVD recordables for the home user who is making his own movies OR for compiling various downloaded freebie clips.


I am doing this now, I record over the air HD tv shows... Lost, Jericho etc. edit out the commercials and burn it to a DVD+R DL in HD DVD format holds about 48mins at 100% quality. and they look beautiful on my A1 & A2


----------



## Mike728

syphix said:


> Generation loss.


What do you mean by "generation loss"?


----------



## syphix

(off the topic of HD DVD/Blu-ray...on the topic of DRM music)

Ever try Tunebite, Tom?


----------



## syphix

Mike728 said:


> What do you mean by "generation loss"?


It goes back to tape (and more specifically, multi-track tape recording). By burning to a CD, you're expanding the mp3/aac, etc. When you re-rip the CD, your re-encoding it. You're NEVER gonna get the same level of sound, unless you leave the ripped file uncompressed. If you re-compress it, you've just added a "generation".


----------



## Mike728

syphix said:


> It goes back to tape (and more specifically, multi-track tape recording). By burning to a CD, you're expanding the mp3/aac, etc. When you re-rip the CD, your re-encoding it. You're NEVER gonna get the same level of sound, unless you leave the ripped file uncompressed. If you re-compress it, you've just added a "generation".


As soon as you down convert it to MP3, you've already lost something. I like having the option of ripping at a 256k bit rate, vs. 128k which seems to be the standard DL format. And, I lose nothing when I copy that file multiple times.

Edit: I may have misunderstood what you were originally responding to. I think we may be on the same page.


----------



## syphix

[off topic of the thread's subject]

What I was getting at: each time you expand (play, burn, open in an audio editor) an mp3 and then re-save/re-rip that audio, you lose even MORE audio detail.

Tunebite adds a generation because it's not a true "conversion" of the data, it's playing it and recording it.

Burning it (as an audio CD) then ripping it adds a generation because of the expansion of the mp3 onto a CD, then re-encoding to another mp3...even if ripping at 320kbps.

I was just telling Tom the limitations of rip & burn methods of circumventing DRM's. True circumventing withOUT a generation loss would require removal of the DRM, then conversion of the data without decoding (dbPoweramp, etc.).

[/off topic]


----------



## FogCutter

Stuart Sweet said:


> Old formats have a way of resurfacing. In the 1990s, Beta was used for broadcasting, and Select-A-Vision discs and digital audio tapes were used for data storage. Who knows what use HD-DVD technology will show up in.


Good point. They are still pressing direct disk and other LPs and the esoteric turntable business is alive and well.


----------



## jazzyd971fm

Jason Nipp said:


> Yes, it gets hot, I will not deny that, but I have never had it shut down or melt a disc. I just don't recommend putting it in a fully enclosed cabinet.


+1 When I am not playing games or watching movies, I am running [email protected] 24/7. No problems whatsoever

The original 20 & 60 gig PS3 has PS2 support in hardware

The 80 gig PS3 has limited PS2 support by software emulation

The 40gig PS3 has no PS2 support: the "Emotion Engine Chip" that controlled PS2 software was removed to lower costs.

WOW!!!!! 100 pages in this thread:eek2:


----------



## pnyberg

Stuart Sweet said:


> Old formats have a way of resurfacing. In the 1990s, Beta was used for broadcasting, and Select-A-Vision discs and digital audio tapes were used for data storage. Who knows what use HD-DVD technology will show up in.


Point well made, albeit a little off. Betacam was indeed born from Betamax, the consumer format, but a decade earlier; Betamax debuted in the mid 70s, and Betacam made its first appearance in the early 80s (1982). I still use betacam in professional video applications today, though most of the time the sources range from DVCam (professional DV), to DVD, to HDD.

I rang in on this subject around the time that Warner pulled the rug from under Toshiba at CES. I had a HD-DVD player I purchased at Costco, and decided to return it, as I saw the writing on the wall. However I did LIKE the format. I also liked the fact the upgrades were as easy as plugging in a Cat5 to your player and downloading the update; it seems the only BR player to have this functionality is the PS3. I am working at an industry tradeshow (Game Developers Conf) this week in SF and one exec with XBox seemed to think this:

Sony's domination of the market with licensing and agreements in place will result in higher prices for all of the HD-DVD backers, which will in turn mean BR price points for movies of $39.95 and higher. This is because of all the retolling efforts needed for the industry. I don't readily agree with him, but it is food for thought. It should be noted that he personally owns both formats.

What's more interesting is that a discussion ensued about digital delivery content and the fact that it is already available on the XBox 360. Is it underutilzed? I think so.

I have had DOD for about 2 weeks right now and while it is nice, the fact that it is a download deliverable and not true on demand will make Ma and Pa Consumer not so excited about it. After all, we have been preprogrammed into an environment of "instant gratification," and this hurdle will have to be cleared to make it more appealing to the masses.

my .02, anyway. My condolences to all the HDDVD owners, I just hope some distributor keeps the format alive (a la Criterion) for the technophiles who like the format.


----------



## FogCutter

When are 8-track tapes coming back?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jason Nipp said:


> Up till now, I wasn't what one could really label as a fence sitter, however I have limited my investment on movies for both formats.
> 
> Next stop... Walmart to buy the Die Hard 4 movie BD set.....
> 
> The thing I wanna know is... will Lucas sit on the fence like he did with DVD? If I recall correctly he lost his a$$ on LD.... and it took him many years to get the trilogy on DVD..... Seeing that remastered to HD might be pretty cool.... As long as it's not the CGI stuff that he did in the DVD special editions.


Die Hard is one of the quadrilogies that I want as well. I also wanted the Spider-Man Trilogy.

I remember for years Lucas had one reason or another not to release on DVD... then he went nuts with multiple releases. I hope that IF he releases again on Blu ray, that he just does it right from the start.

What I would hope to see would be "Special Editions" of all the movies that have been re-worked to include the theatrical original as well as the "final" cuts. I have heard rumors that Lucas has actually wanted to tweak Phantom Menace and perhaps Attack of the Clones to improve the Yoda scenes, but that may be just rumor.


----------



## space86

Digital Bits reported that Warner Home Video will Release 
All the Batman Movies including the New The Dark Knight on Blu Ray Disc this Fall


----------



## Stewart Vernon

apexmi said:


> I am doing this now, I record over the air HD tv shows... Lost, Jericho etc. edit out the commercials and burn it to a DVD+R DL in HD DVD format holds about 48mins at 100% quality. and they look beautiful on my A1 & A2


Wandering off-topic...

This is one of the very things I was thinking about doing. I still have a model 6000U receiver from Dish that I own, but has been inactive since the MPEG4 changeover. I considered getting the modification (if it is still available and still legal) so that I could use that box to capture OTA over on my computer. Then I'd need to read up on how to make those DVD+R DL format with HD. Is that very complicated? Do you leave your video in MPEG2 format from OTA, or convert it to an MPEG4 encode first?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

space86 said:


> Digital Bits reported that Warner Home Video will Release
> All the Batman Movies including the New The Dark Knight on Blu Ray Disc this Fall


When you say "all" I assume you mean this includes the ones from the 1980s?

This is an example of where I'm happy with my SD DVD box set for those movies. Actually, I only really liked the first 2 with Michael Keaton... but I bought the box set because it was a deal.

Batman Begins is great! and I expect Dark Knight to be as well... but those other Batman movies are a good/bad example of movies I don't intend to double-dip.

I'd double-dip for Star Wars or Star Trek or Die Hard or some others I could probably think of.. I did double-dip for Batman Begins (DVD and HD DVD).


----------



## elaclair

pnyberg said:


> Sony's domination of the market with licensing and agreements in place will result in higher prices for all of the HD-DVD backers, which will in turn mean BR price points for movies of $39.95 and higher. This is because of all the retolling efforts needed for the industry. I don't readily agree with him, but it is food for thought. It should be noted that he personally owns both formats.


Probably not since the only major studio that would have to re-tool is Universal since Paramount had already started releasing movies on Blu-Ray before going HD-DVD exclusive. The re-tool is a one time expense, and you can pretty much guarantee that there will be some sort of subsidy by the BDA to help defer that cost. If anything, we'll probably see the retail price decrease somewhat because of the single format support, and the probably increase in released titles. Of course, we may not see as many sale prices for a while.....


----------



## machavez00

well, I pulled the trigger and bought a PS3 at Target. I had some gift cards from work and used those, plus I got a $40 gift card to use later. Final price $299+tax. The one bad thing is did not include the "Spiderman" disc. I will hit Sam's Club to buy the remote.


----------



## Drew2k

Jason Nipp said:


> Next stop... Walmart to buy the Die Hard 4 movie BD set.....
> 
> The thing I wanna know is... will Lucas sit on the fence like he did with DVD? If I recall correctly he lost his a$$ on LD.... and it took him many years to get the trilogy on DVD..... Seeing that remastered to HD might be pretty cool.... As long as it's not the CGI stuff that he did in the DVD special editions.


I might be at Wal*Mart with you, but I've got a question about the media regarding the 1.1 and 2.0 profiles ...

I bought my HD-DVD player at the Pre-Black Friday sale last November and don't have much invested in it, wiht only 24 HD-DVDs that were mostly free. I plan on getting a BD player when the 2.0 players come out, but I could take advantage of sales on release day and pick up some BD discs early ... which leads to my question:

Will there be any differences in BD movies available before and after 2.0 comes out? Is it a waste of time to buy BD movies now when they could be re-released in 6 months, 8 months, etc., with more interactive features that require a 2.0 player?


----------



## Jason Nipp

Drew2k said:


> I might be at Wal*Mart with you, but I've got a question about the media regarding the 1.1 and 2.0 profiles ...
> 
> I bought my HD-DVD player at the Pre-Black Friday sale last November and don't have much invested in it, wiht only 24 HD-DVDs that were mostly free. I plan on getting a BD player when the 2.0 players come out, but I could take advantage of sales on release day and pick up some BD discs early ... which leads to my question:
> 
> Will there be any differences in BD movies available before and after 2.0 comes out? Is it a waste of time to buy BD movies now when they could be re-released in 6 months, 8 months, etc., with more interactive features that require a 2.0 player?


Don't know. I would assume that studios would not go through the effort and cost of setting up a second master just to add PiP commentary after it has already been released.

Either case the movie and basic features should still work either way.


----------



## Pink Fairy

I have no clue - although it makes me glad that there was a decision made...FINALLY!


----------



## Jason Nipp

HDMe said:


> ...I also wanted the Spider-Man Trilogy....


Already have that set... It is awesome. In number one where the goblin is fighting at the end Spidey.... The clarity and picture is just awesome....


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jason Nipp said:


> Already have that set... It is awesome. In number one where the goblin is fighting at the end Spidey.... The clarity and picture is just awesome....


I've seen bits and pieces of Spidey #1 and #2 in HD on FOX... but since FOX is "only" 720p, I figure that's just the tip of the iceburg when compared to the Blu ray version.

Back when I bought my HD DVD player, I was tempted to go Blu ray for Spidey... but couldn't justify the price difference at the time and at that moment, other than Spidey, more movies I wanted were on HD DVD.

I left the room, but there was a "promo" spot on the local news a few minutes ago mentioning Toshiba. I was actually surprised to see that on the local news, but then we have WRAL-5 that was the first HD station in the country, so it makes sense.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jason Nipp said:


> Don't know. I would assume that studios would not go through the effort and cost of setting up a second master just to add PiP commentary after it has already been released.
> 
> Either case the movie and basic features should still work either way.


That would be my guess. I also liken this to some of the DVD double-dips in recent years. There are some movies that came out, then 6-months later an "extended" or "director's" cut would be released. Sometimes I double-dipped, other times I didn't. It all depended upon how much I liked the movie AND how much value was added to the new release.

I also double-dipped on DVDs when a new anamorphic widescreen was released for older DVDs that weren't anamorphic.

I know on HD DVD, a couple of double-dips already happened with Troy and Full Metal Jacket. In addition to the "director's cut" I gather they also re-encoded and cleaned up the transfers on those movies.

So it probably would pay on Blu ray to compare and look for reviews. If a movie is out and has a good review for picture quality, and I wanted it, then I'd probably go ahead and buy now rather than "wait" to see if a new one came out with BD-Live or whatever enhancements on it.

In a related note... I just bought the price-reduced Complete Matrix trilogy at Best Buy. A great deal ($40 since I had a 10% off coupon as well as the new price) on HD DVD. You can't get them at all on Blu ray, and it may be a while... but even so hard to beat the price now.

BUT... Best Buy also has Smallville Season 5 and 6 for $40 (I have another 10% off I could use) each. For some wacky reasoning... Warner released season 5 and 6 on HD DVD, but only season 6 on Blu ray. I figure it will be a while before I have a Blu ray player, so am tempted to get seasons 5 and 6 on HD DVD... but now I know they'll not go back and do 1-4 on HD DVD... so I'm hesitant. I think at about $20 I'd buy without question, so I'll keep watching.

I never did buy Star Trek season 1 or Battlestar Galactica on HD, because I'd already bought those on SD and it was too recently purchased to double-dip... so in those cases, I no longer plan on getting them unless they get dirt cheap because I figure those will get Blu ray re-releases at some point.


----------



## texaswolf

Drew2k said:


> I might be at Wal*Mart with you, but I've got a question about the media regarding the 1.1 and 2.0 profiles ...
> 
> I bought my HD-DVD player at the Pre-Black Friday sale last November and don't have much invested in it, wiht only 24 HD-DVDs that were mostly free. I plan on getting a BD player when the 2.0 players come out, but I could take advantage of sales on release day and pick up some BD discs early ... which leads to my question:
> 
> Will there be any differences in BD movies available before and after 2.0 comes out? Is it a waste of time to buy BD movies now when they could be re-released in 6 months, 8 months, etc., with more interactive features that require a 2.0 player?


I wouldn't count on re-releases with a majority of the BD players sold being PS3's....just be safe and get one...then you'll also have a game console to play while waiting for releases....plus you'll always be able to get updates.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Hmm, Guess Sony doesn't want to bankrupt Toshiba after all....

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUST28617520080220


----------



## Dave

Thats just a tit for tat move. Any of you that rememeber the VHS- Beta war, rememeber that Toshiba helped Sony keep the Beta format alive for so long by manufactoring the Beta player for Sony.

Now the real question is if Sony will do here like they did in the European countries and offer us a trade in allowance to buy a BP player. 

Over seas they are letting you trade in the Toshiba HD DVD Players for money off the BP player.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Oh great, another 100 posts about how Sony bought off Toshiba with a Chip plant...


----------



## Jason Nipp

AlbertZeroK said:


> Oh great, another 100 posts about how Sony bought off Toshiba with a Chip plant...


Hundred? Don't you mean 2506 posts? :grin:

Oh, and wasn't it Tosh that paid the 835 million to Sony..... :lol: ya I know I tried to spin that one.. :grin:


----------



## RAD

This story is getting more TV coverage then I thought it would. I've seen it on national network news, cable news channels, local news (story and news crawl). I wonder how many people even knew there was two different HDM formats?


----------



## AlbertZeroK

RAD said:


> I wonder how many people even knew there was two different HDM formats?


Or even three? (Does HD-VMD Even Count?)


----------



## chris0

Jason Nipp said:


> Hmm, Guess Sony doesn't want to bankrupt Toshiba after all....
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUST28617520080220


First reports of that sale were back in October. Besides, Sony, Toshiba and IBM worked together to develop the Cell chip, so Toshiba's had a stake in it all along.


----------



## machavez00

question: Blade Runner, if you have both players which to buy the BD or HD version, both are the same price.


----------



## elaclair

Just noticed something odd with Warner's commercials.

They've been advertising Michael Clayton, but the last time I saw the commercial, the announcer's final line has changed. He now says "Own it today on DVD and BluRay-hi definition". Even though the image also has the HD-DVD case shown. Didn't think too much of it at first, but then saw the commercial for No Reservations, and the same thing...the announcer mentions the standard DVD and Blu-Ray, but not the HD-DVD release.


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> question: Blade Runner, if you have both players which to buy the BD or HD version, both are the same price.


I have both players and I wouldn't buy either right now. I'll bet the HD-DVD version comes down pretty quickly.


----------



## Jason Nipp

machavez00 said:


> question: Blade Runner, if you have both players which to buy the BD or HD version, both are the same price.


Which format will have better resale value if you choose to sell the disc off some day?

Which format is gonna live longer?

Now that I have said that, with all the firesales on HD-DVD that everyone is anticipating, I'd definitely watch for a cheap closeout HD-DVD version of it.


----------



## Jason Nipp

elaclair said:


> Just noticed something odd with Warner's commercials.
> 
> They've been advertising Michael Clayton, but the last time I saw the commercial, the announcer's final line has changed. He now says "Own it today on DVD and BluRay-hi definition". Even though the image also has the HD-DVD case shown. Didn't think too much of it at first, but then saw the commercial for No Reservations, and the same thing...the announcer mentions the standard DVD and Blu-Ray, but not the HD-DVD release.


They have been saying "Own it today on BLU Ray High DEF DVD" for awhile. Started way before the Superbowl.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jason Nipp said:


> Which format will have better resale value if you choose to sell the disc off some day?
> 
> Which format is gonna live longer?
> 
> Now that I have said that, with all the firesales on HD-DVD that everyone is anticipating, I'd definitely watch for a cheap closeout HD-DVD version of it.


Agreed, and also if I saw a set of Star Trek:TOS season one on HDDVD for real cheap, I'd pick that up too. It's a combo disc, so you don't lose out, and it's bound to be collectible.


----------



## elaclair

Jason Nipp said:


> They have been saying "Own it today on BLU Ray High DEF DVD" for awhile. Started way before the Superbowl.


Okay, maybe I'm just losing it a bit, but could have sworn that previously they also included "and coming soon to HD-DVD".......


----------



## Chris Blount

Jason Nipp said:



> They have been saying "Own it today on BLU Ray High DEF DVD" for awhile. Started way before the Superbowl.


I thought they couldn't associate "Blu-Ray" with "DVD". It is my understanding that Blu-Ray is a proprietary format and not approved by the DVD forum thus cannot be called a DVD.


----------



## jwebb1970

HDMe said:


> Die Hard is one of the quadrilogies that I want as well. I also wanted the Spider-Man Trilogy.
> 
> I remember for years Lucas had one reason or another not to release on DVD... then he went nuts with multiple releases. I hope that IF he releases again on Blu ray, that he just does it right from the start.
> 
> What I would hope to see would be "Special Editions" of all the movies that have been re-worked to include the theatrical original as well as the "final" cuts. I have heard rumors that Lucas has actually wanted to tweak Phantom Menace and perhaps Attack of the Clones to improve the Yoda scenes, but that may be just rumor.


Actually, Ep I has already been tweaked.

The Muppet Yoda from that film has been replaced with the CG Yoda from II/III. There is a snippet of it on the REVENGE OF THE SITH bonus materials DVD.

Look for the short documentary on Vader. During an interview w/ Hayden C, he starts saying the whole "fear leads to anger..." bit & it fades to the shot from Ep I, except Yoda is now CG.

Apparently was done during post on EpIII. Lucas wanted the PT Yoda to be consistent. The "classic" Muppet, however, will _never_ be replaced according to ILM people.

If Lucas yet again drowns the market in SW discs ("but now in HD"), I hope it is a "clearing the vaults" set - all deleted footage, behind the scenes stuff, TV specials, interviews, etc..and every version of each film.

Do a "real" commentary w/ the OT stars in a room at the same time w/ GL talking about their experiences. And no more Ben Burtt!!! Yes, we know where the R2 sounds came from!!!


----------



## FogCutter

jwebb1970 said:


> If Lucas yet again drowns the market in SW discs ("but now in HD"), I hope it is a "clearing the vaults" set - all deleted footage, behind the scenes stuff, TV specials, interviews, etc..and every version of each film.


Now that would be something. I've read that Lucas fought very hard to keep SW from coming to VHS -- EVER!! But market pressures finally made him change his mind. By that time there were many, many pirate copies afoot.

Lucas seems to be uber-possessive with his films, and I guess I can't blame him. Once they're out, they're out.

Let's hope that he loosens up or his heirs do. Then we have a shot at seeing it all, snippets, deleted scenes, alternate versions, etc..


----------



## Jason Nipp

Chris Blount said:


> I thought they couldn't associate "Blu-Ray" with "DVD". It is my understanding that Blu-Ray is a proprietary format and not approved by the DVD forum thus cannot be called a DVD.


I'll try to capture the commercial, I'm pretty sure this is how the commercial goes. But I have been wrong before.


----------



## BlueSnake

elaclair said:


> Just noticed something odd with Warner's commercials.
> 
> They've been advertising Michael Clayton, but the last time I saw the commercial, the announcer's final line has changed. He now says "Own it today on DVD and BluRay-hi definition". Even though the image also has the HD-DVD case shown. Didn't think too much of it at first, but then saw the commercial for No Reservations, and the same thing...the announcer mentions the standard DVD and Blu-Ray, but not the HD-DVD release.


Per Amazon.com's release schedule Michael Clayton is to be released on HD DVD on March 11th.


----------



## jwebb1970

FogCutter said:


> Now that would be something. I've read that Lucas fought very hard to keep SW from coming to VHS -- EVER!! But market pressures finally made him change his mind. By that time there were many, many pirate copies afoot.
> 
> Lucas seems to be uber-possessive with his films, and I guess I can't blame him. Once they're out, they're out.
> 
> Let's hope that he loosens up or his heirs do. Then we have a shot at seeing it all, snippets, deleted scenes, alternate versions, etc..


True. From what I've read Lucas was keen on re-issuing the SW movies theatrically every year (kinda did actually) instead of home video.

The DVD wait, for one, had something to do with waiting for "market penetration" as is similar pressure to issue on a successful format. By the DVD age, bootlegs of the original films could be found everywhere online. Some of the LD rips are in many ways better than the eventual "bonus materials" treatment they got last year.

Plus, the whole "released for the last time" spin the old THX VHS set got sold A LOT of tapes. GL surely waited for the Special Edition to be as polished as he felt it need be for the eventual DVDs. Your opinions on _that _will vary.

My guess is it'll be a few years before SW gets a Blu release, if ever.

Bluray still needs to beat old DVD, or at least gain much more leverage against it & show some legs, before then.

Indy Jones, Godfather, LOTR....those will show first, I'd bet. Speilberg & Coppola are apparently Bluray fans & New Line needs another reason to screw Jackson & the Tolkien esate again & keep thier legal team sharp).

And if they succeed on Blu, that might light a fire under Uncle George.

Just hope SW gets the same level of TLC that BLADE RUNNER got for it's HD re-issue in terms of extra goodies.


----------



## jwebb1970

elaclair said:


> Just noticed something odd with Warner's commercials.
> 
> They've been advertising Michael Clayton, but the last time I saw the commercial, the announcer's final line has changed. He now says "Own it today on DVD and BluRay-hi definition". Even though the image also has the HD-DVD case shown. Didn't think too much of it at first, but then saw the commercial for No Reservations, and the same thing...the announcer mentions the standard DVD and Blu-Ray, but not the HD-DVD release.





BlueSnake said:


> Per Amazon.com's release schedule Michael Clayton is to be released on HD DVD on March 11th.


According to Bill Hunt over @ thedigitalbits.com, WB informed them that despite Toshiba's pulling the HD DVD plug, the studio will continue with it's current HD DVD weening process. Every release on DVD/BD until May 31 will get a matching HD DVD version 3 wks later.

So I AM LEGEND (the last_ big_ WB HD DVD it appears) will still hit early June. Bonnie & Clyde will be the last major catalog release.

Per The Bits:



The Digital Bits said:


> Warner has just announced that their first Raw Feed title to arrive in high-def streets on 4/22 on Blu-ray and 5/13 on HD-DVD... Sublime: Uncut Version. FYI, we've asked Warner if Toshiba's announcement will impact their plans to continue releasing HD-DVD titles until the end of May. We'll let you know when they get back to us on it.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> (later)....Warner has said that there are currently no changes planned in its release schedule as a result of Toshiba's decision. The studio will continue releasing HD-DVD titles until May..


----------



## djlong

jwebb1970 said:


> New Line needs another reason to screw Jackson & the Tolkien esate again & keep thier legal team sharp).


Jackson and New Line kissed and made up - it was all part of the announcement that Jackson had agreed to do The Hobbit. Part of the settlement was to resolve all the legal issues concerning payouts for the LotR DVDs.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

djlong said:


> Jackson and New Line kissed and made up - it was all part of the announcement that Jackson had agreed to do The Hobbit. Part of the settlement was to resolve all the legal issues concerning payouts for the LotR DVDs.


Strangely enough... and I don't have a link to it... but somewhere not too long after reading they had made up with Jackson, I heard/read that now the Tolkien estate is going after New Line saying they didn't give them their proper royalties either.


----------



## Pink Fairy

I wanna see the HOBBIT !!!

~pouts~


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> Strangely enough... and I don't have a link to it... but somewhere not too long after reading they had made up with Jackson, I heard/read that now the Tolkien estate is going after New Line saying they didn't give them their proper royalties either.


http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20177483,00.html

That's an AP story from the Entertainment Weekly site. From the sounds of it New Line is still ok to go ahead with "The Hobbit." It's part of the estate's suit to block NL from doing so, but it doesn't look like they have that ability to do that now.


----------



## SDizzle

I have been waiting to see who would drop off. Now you will see more manufacturers jump on the blu ray technology for players. Quite a few manufacturers have held out not making either just waiting to see who would make it.


----------



## syphix

Paramount made it official...they're Blu, too.

That's all of 'em.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I am astounded by how fast HDDVD fell apart. Six months from now no one will even remember it.


----------



## mridan

syphix said:


> Paramount made it official...they're Blu, too.
> 
> That's all of 'em.


Now hopefully when they release Transformers it will be with lossless sound and not the old compressed dolby digital like the HD DVD version.


----------



## jutley

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am astounded by how fast HDDVD fell apart. Six months from now no one will even remember it.


Oh you're wrong Stuart...some of us will still be watching ours.  You included, right?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It should take about that long for me to fully consume my collection. Then I will rebuy them on Blu-ray unless LG's combo player is cheap enough.


----------



## bobukcat

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am astounded by how fast HDDVD fell apart. Six months from now no one will even remember it.


+1, as I stated in another thread I expected this thing to really drag on for at least six more months. I'm very pleased to be wrong but still wonder just how long it will be before we see BD titles from these newly converted studios.

For everyone who believes that only geeks like us on this board even know any of this is going on, here is a purely anicdotal story that I think may be telling. We had some people over a few weeks ago and one of them was my friends younger sister - a 21 y/o college student that, although computer savvy as you'd expect, shows no real interest in techno stuff other than her ipod. I mentioned that I had received a PS3 for Christmas and that I wanted it primarily for the BD player. Her response was "isn't that what most people buy them for?", surprised by this I asked her if she or maybe a friend or someone else had one and she responded "now that HDDVD is nearly dead I want one." I was pretty floored that she not only knew what BD was but that there was a format war and it was nearly over. Granted, she may not yet be the targetted demographic for this technology, but she isn't too far off either.


----------



## Mike728

Jason Nipp said:


> That would explain why Philips/LG was ramping down production volumes of the SuperBlu over the last month.
> 
> I may not work there anymore, but I still have little birdies chirping to me... :lol:


It doesn't sound like they're "ramping down" to me. Link

I'm still holding out for the new Samsung dual player, though.


----------



## RAD

bobukcat said:


> I'm very pleased to be wrong but still wonder just how long it will be before we see BD titles from these newly converted studios.


I saw it mentioned elsewhere that Paramount could have some BD titles out in March since they had them already to go before the decided to go HD-DVD exclusive. Good thing they didn't throw out all those disc's.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Mike728 said:


> It doesn't sound like they're "ramping down" to me. Link
> 
> I'm still holding out for the new Samsung dual player, though.


Interesting....


----------



## machavez00

Mike728 said:


> It doesn't sound like they're "ramping down" to me. Link
> 
> I'm still holding out for the new Samsung dual player, though.


I think the 5500 has been canceled


----------



## jutley

machavez00 said:


> I think the 5500 has been canceled


The latest rumor in the 5000 owners thread on AVS is that the 5500 has NOT been cancelled. I personally think that it would be wise of Samsung to release the 5500 as there are plenty of HD-DVD owners who will be interested in a dual player so they can go purple. I also think it would be nice of Samsung to make a formal announcement one way or the other so people know rather than listening to rumors, but I doubt that will happen...unless they did and I missed it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I suppose that if I could get a combo player from a major manufacturer for less than $200 over the cost of a BD player, I'd consider it. Otherwise I'd rebuy the HDDVDs I have.


----------



## jutley

The 5000 that I paid $799 for 2 weeks ago is down to $610 today on Amazon so it may happen Stuart. I hope they continue to drop fast and I'll pick up a second one for the bedroom in a few months.

Thank goodness for Amazon's 30 day price guarantee!


----------



## Drew2k

May have already been posted, but what's a redundant link between friends? 



> *Ready to buy Blu-ray? Better hit pause button*
> Price expected to remain high for now, and you'll need to upgrade, too
> 
> *By Suzanne Choney*
> MSNBC
> updated 11:02 p.m. ET, Wed., Feb. 20, 2008
> 
> The high-definition DVD format war may be over, but not the battle for eyeballs and dollars when it comes to viewing high-def movies.
> 
> With Toshiba's announcement Tuesday that it's abandoning the HD DVD format it helped create, leaving Sony's Blu-ray the winner, consumers may feel they have no choice but to buy a Blu-ray player in order to enjoy movies in HD.
> 
> There are good reasons to wait. Among them are...


Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23262620/


----------



## macperfo

With the way technology in hard drives and video compression are going it's going to be short lived for both format. Who's going to pay all that money when you can go on VOD and download for a fraction in HD store it on your huge hard drive and forget about it.


----------



## machavez00

jutley said:


> The latest rumor in the 5000 owners thread on AVS is that the 5500 has NOT been cancelled. I personally think that it would be wise of Samsung to release the 5500 as there are plenty of HD-DVD owners who will be interested in a dual player so they can go purple. I also think it would be nice of Samsung to make a formal announcement one way or the other so people know rather than listening to rumors, but I doubt that will happen...unless they did and I missed it.


the 5500 is 1.1


----------



## machavez00

jutley said:


> The 5000 that I paid $799 for 2 weeks ago is down to $610 today on Amazon so it may happen Stuart. I hope they continue to drop fast and I'll pick up a second one for the bedroom in a few months.
> 
> Thank goodness for Amazon's 30 day price guarantee!


the 5000 is profile 1.0
http://www.idoblu.co.uk/page2 Blu-ray Players.html


----------



## Mike728

machavez00 said:


> the 5500 is 1.1


Good enough for me. Especially at $599 msrp


----------



## Richierich

Has Panasonic released any tentative date about the availability of the new DMP-BD50 BluRay Plaer???


----------



## dhhaines

macperfo said:


> With the way technology in hard drives and video compression are going it's going to be short lived for both format. Who's going to pay all that money when you can go on VOD and download for a fraction in HD store it on your huge hard drive and forget about it.


 I guess you've never had a harddrive crash 

No way I'm paying for downloaded HD Video unless I can burn it IN HD FORMAT to a hard copy:nono2: Harddrives are made too cheaply and I've had too many crash to rely on one for something I've paid $$ for. I've never had digital media on a CD/DVD/HD-DVD/ Blu Ray disc go bad and I've had some CD's for 20 years or more.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

macperfo said:


> With the way technology in hard drives and video compression are going it's going to be short lived for both format. Who's going to pay all that money when you can go on VOD and download for a fraction in HD store it on your huge hard drive and forget about it.


Independent of hard drive crashes is a more ominous looming possibility with downloads... that being downloads that expire. We already have it with some PPV options where you pay and only have 24 hours or 7 days to watch, then it goes bye.. and if you want to watch again you have to pay again.

Once they go to all downloads, it is much easier for them to force these kinds of play-once-pay-again scenarios.


----------



## texaswolf

HDMe said:


> Independent of hard drive crashes is a more ominous looming possibility with downloads... that being downloads that expire. We already have it with some PPV options where you pay and only have 24 hours or 7 days to watch, then it goes bye.. and if you want to watch again you have to pay again.
> 
> Once they go to all downloads, it is much easier for them to force these kinds of play-once-pay-again scenarios.


yep...and not to mention that i can download PPV HD movies now, but the quality isn't even close to one of my Blu Ray or HDDVD disc. I have 89 HD movies and counting on my HD...but ones i really care about quality on, i have on disc...there is no comparison.


----------



## NO1B4ME

texaswolf said:


> yep...and not to mention that i can download PPV HD movies now, but the quality isn't even close to one of my Blu Ray or HDDVD disc. I have 89 HD movies and counting on my HD...but ones i really care about quality on, i have on disc...there is no comparison.


Yep got that right. I have 80 HD DVD's myself with 2 HD players the Toshiba HD-A35 and the HD-A30. Both are Awesome players. I also have 40 BLu Ray discs and a Panasonic BD300.

The sound and PQ form my new Onkyo and these 2 players is Amazing. The new formats DTS True Master and DD + are insane. It saddens me that HD-DVD lost the war because IMO the format was better andthe players were chepaer and 10x better than any blu player out their.


----------



## dhhaines

NO1B4ME said:


> Yep got that right. I have 80 HD DVD's myself with 2 HD players the Toshiba HD-A35 and the HD-A30. Both are Awesome players. I also have 40 BLu Ray discs and a Panasonic BD300.
> 
> The sound and PQ form my new Onkyo and these 2 players is Amazing. The new formats DTS True Master and DD + are insane. It saddens me that HD-DVD lost the war because IMO the format was better andthe players were chepaer and 10x better than any blu player out their.


 I have to agree with you on the HD-DVD being the better format. I have both and I like my HD-DVD player features much better.

Once again, the loser is the consumer. The studios made the decision for all of us.:nono2:


----------



## jutley

machavez00 said:


> the 5000 is profile 1.0
> http://www.idoblu.co.uk/page2 Blu-ray Players.html


It is now, but unless Samsung loses interest we will get a 1.1 update in the near future for the 5000.


----------



## jutley

texaswolf said:


> yep...and not to mention that i can download PPV HD movies now, but the quality isn't even close to one of my Blu Ray or HDDVD disc. I have 89 HD movies and counting on my HD...but ones i really care about quality on, i have on disc...there is no comparison.


+1

The point of HD is quality. I love my HD on D* but there is no comparison for audio or video to HDM.


----------



## Richard King

Report: Sony Paid Warners' $400 Million For Blu-ray Move
http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=91894&var=story#91894


> The pivotal decision that led to the end of the hi-def DVD format war was the result of an auction between rivals Sony and Toshiba in which both formats sought to buy the exclusive partnership of Warner Home Video- and Sony won by paying around $400 million.


More.... That's a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## jutley

Richard King said:


> Report: Sony Paid Warners' $400 Million For Blu-ray Move
> http://www.dealerscopetoday.com/story.bsp?sid=91894&var=story#91894
> More.... That's a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$


Geez...they could have bought my support for $1 Million!


----------



## AlbertZeroK

I'm still wondering if this is all actual money or just a credit for X number of Blu-Ray disk royalties they don't have to pay. I'm of the mind that it's not real money, but I think alot of people Sony just wrote a check...


----------



## jutley

AlbertZeroK said:


> I'm still wondering if this is all actual money or just a credit for X number of Blu-Ray disk royalties they don't have to pay. I'm of the mind that it's not real money, but I think alot of people Sony just wrote a check...


It also may be a combination of money changing hands and royalty credits.


----------



## Chris Blount

Drew2k said:


> May have already been posted, but what's a redundant link between friends?
> 
> Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23262620/


This is a good article and reflects what I have been thinking. Blu-Ray has some tough times ahead.


----------



## texaswolf

Chris Blount said:


> This is a good article and reflects what I have been thinking. Blu-Ray has some tough times ahead.


+1 Thats why i went with the PS3...if BR croaks, i still have a backward compatible game system.


----------



## jwebb1970

texaswolf said:


> +1 Thats why i went with the PS3...if BR croaks, i still have a backward compatible game system.


ANd you are lucky that you have a "backwards compatible" PS3 since Sony has now been gutting _PS2_ abilities from the 3.


----------



## crabtrp

NO1B4ME said:


> It saddens me that HD-DVD lost the war because IMO the format was better andthe players were chepaer and 10x better than any blu player out their.


Really? I have both and I find the controls of my HDDVD (A30) to be far inferior to my Blu-ray (PS3). I find the A30 slow and clunky, takes forever to start and load discs. The only thing which annoys me about the PS3 is that if you barely even touch one of the buttons on the remote the darn machine turns on. With the amount of remotes it takes to control the number of gadgets I need to retain my man card I am always having to move them around, and boom, there again the PS3 is back on so I have to get up and turn the thing off (power button on remote would be nice). Anyway, carry on...


----------



## dhhaines

crabtrp said:


> Really? I have both and I find the controls of my HDDVD (A30) to be far inferior to my Blu-ray (PS3). I find the A30 slow and clunky, takes forever to start and load discs. The only thing which annoys me about the PS3 is that if you barely even touch one of the buttons on the remote the darn machine turns on. With the amount of remotes it takes to control the number of gadgets I need to retain my man card I am always having to move them around, and boom, there again the PS3 is back on so I have to get up and turn the thing off (power button on remote would be nice). Anyway, carry on...


 Hence one of the problems with the pS3.... won't work with my Harmony remote and I can't find one that is backward compatable with the 40+ PS2 games I have. Plus it runs too hot to put in my cabinet.


----------



## texaswolf

jwebb1970 said:


> ANd you are lucky that you have a "backwards compatible" PS3 since Sony has now been gutting _PS2_ abilities from the 3.


Actually i got the 40gb, thinking that i wouldn't care...got rid of it and got a 20gb...popped a 250gb external, now its a 270gb PS3. i still have friends that play online with ps2's, so it's nice to still be abe to join, while using the PS3.


----------



## Jason Nipp

NO1B4ME said:


> Yep got that right. I have 80 HD DVD's myself with 2 HD players the Toshiba HD-A35 and the HD-A30. Both are Awesome players. I also have 40 BLu Ray discs and a Panasonic BD300.
> 
> The sound and PQ form my new Onkyo and these 2 players is Amazing. The new formats DTS True Master and DD + are insane. It saddens me that HD-DVD lost the war because IMO the format was better andthe players were chepaer and 10x better than any blu player out their.


People keep comparing the lower resolution 1080i models of Toshiba's offering against the cost of Blu Ray players.

I'll say it again, the 1080p version of HD-DVD players *were* selling in the same price range as the BDP players.

My A35 is much slower loading than my BDP-S1 or PS3. And the A35's chapter transitions suck as they are no where close to being as seamless in transition compared to the BDP-S1.

"When you say 10x better than any blu player out there"....try and remember to differentiate personal opinion from factual data.


----------



## chris0

dhhaines said:


> Hence one of the problems with the pS3.... won't work with my Harmony remote and I can't find one that is backward compatable with the 40+ PS2 games I have. Plus it runs too hot to put in my cabinet.


FYI, there are a couple of IR solutions out there for the PS3. The one I use runs about $15 and works great with my Harmony 890. Pretty much the only thing it won't let you do is power on/off the PS3.


----------



## Jason Nipp

dhhaines said:


> won't work with my Harmony remote and I can't find one that is backward compatable with the 40+ PS2 games I have. Plus it runs too hot to put in my cabinet.


It can work with a Harmony, I have an 880. There are a few different ways to add IR to a PS3.

The 80Gb model, and the 20 and 60 all are backwards compatible.

Hot, yes it gets hot, an enclosed cabinet would be a bad thing for a PS3.


----------



## dhhaines

Jason Nipp said:


> It can work with a Harmony, I have an 880. There are a few different ways to add IR to a PS3.
> 
> The 80Gb model, and the 20 and 60 all are backwards compatible.
> 
> Hot, yes it gets hot, an enclosed cabinet would be a bad thing for a PS3.


 I didn't keep the 40g after I found out it wasn't backwards compatible. The only 20 and 60s I've been able to find are refurbs and priced HIGHER then my BDP and the 80s are in the $500 range. Believe me I'm not cheap when it comes to electronics, but I think that the consumer got screwed by the content providers in this so called war. It will be until at least 2009 if ever before "Joe average" consumer buys into HD media.

Besides what kind of format is it that the so called best player is a game machine? How does that get the average person interested?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

dhhaines said:


> Besides what kind of format is it that the so called best player is a game machine? How does that get the average person interested?


To some extent I've stopped trying to apply logic to all things.

Consider that in modern times lots of people have cellphones, but use them to type text messages.

Now imagine you could go back in time to the early 1900s or so, around the time of the telegraph... and bring someone from that time to the present. Don't you think he would be surprised that we not only have the technology to transmit voice over wires but voice over wireless, and yet a lot of people still choose to type messages on what is to some extent a glorified telegraph functionality?

That said... IF I were still a gamer like in the olden days, a PS3 is a good choice since it has games and movies... so I could see some folks liking that combination. Me personally, I still never played movies in my PS2 except there was a time when a couple of newer movies with newer copy protection would only play in my PS2 (or my computer) but not in my DVD standalone.


----------



## vankai

HDMe said:


> yet a lot of people still choose to type messages on what is to some extent a glorified telegraph functionality?


Isn't text messaging still just a glorified ascii non-html email that companies can charge the user for? <it's all about marketing>

I do all my texting within emails.


----------



## ebaltz

Did you guys have fun without me? HA HA HA. Lets recap what happened since I was gone on "vacation".


HD DVD dies completely and everything that could go bad for it did and the war is completely over

HD DVD sour grapes fans continue to spread FUD about their defunct media

That pretty much sums it up.



Jason Nipp said:


> "When you say 10x better than any blu player out there"....try and remember to differentiate personal opinion from factual data.


Well Jason, we know that facts never got in the way of HD DVD hype (aka FUD), so it shouldn't be a big surprise.


----------



## ebaltz

Chris Blount said:


> This is a good article and reflects what I have been thinking. Blu-Ray has some tough times ahead.


Dream on.

Reminder, the MS in MSNBC stands for Mircosoft which supported HD DVD and now is playing sour grapes and trying to cause Blu-ray to fail as well. Didn't work to support HD DVD, this tactic will not either.

-1 for you.


----------



## ebaltz

dhhaines said:


> I have to agree with you on the HD-DVD being the better format. I have both and I like my HD-DVD player features much better.
> 
> Once again, the loser is the consumer. The studios made the decision for all of us.:nono2:


Based on? Capacity? Coating? Bandwidth/bit rate?

And consumers decided by buying Blu-ray 2-1 to 3-1. I can smell your sour grapes a mile away. The consumer wins all the way around. Better product, by far, a gaming machine with a built in blu-ray player, and a much brighter future in terms of capacity and just about everything else.

But you just keep eating those grapes. I'll just laugh at you.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> yep...and not to mention that i can download PPV HD movies now, but the quality isn't even close to one of my Blu Ray or HDDVD disc. I have 89 HD movies and counting on my HD...but ones i really care about quality on, i have on disc...there is no comparison.


Finally something I can agree with. There is no comparison audio or video wise. PPV hasn't stopped people from renting and buying media, and won't for a long time to come. Downloads or spooled material won't either for the next few years for sure, not until a lot of other things change and are invented.

In the future (say 5-10 years) we may have a huge storage media server hooked up to our TV which is our source for everything, TV/Radio/Movies all via the internet somehow and everything is on-demand, you can buy copies to store locally and catalog or rent copies that expire. But that is a long ways off. I hope we get there, but Blu-ray is the HD format for many years to come. Why would people spend big bucks on 1080p TVs and high end audio equipment to only download highly compressed 720p movies with limited audio?


----------



## ebaltz

NO1B4ME said:


> Yep got that right. I have 80 HD DVD's myself with 2 HD players the Toshiba HD-A35 and the HD-A30. Both are Awesome players. I also have 40 BLu Ray discs and a Panasonic BD300.
> 
> The sound and PQ form my new Onkyo and these 2 players is Amazing. The new formats DTS True Master and DD + are insane. It saddens me that HD-DVD lost the war because IMO the format was better andthe players were chepaer and 10x better than any blu player out their.


Because cheaper means better of course? Could your HD DVD player run 1080p games? Could it browse the internet, play AVCHD discs, play SACD audio discs, catalog your CD collection, catalog your photo collection, do video and text chat, spool media from your computer? No? So in what way could it be better than the PS3?

BTW Onkyo has discontinued HD DVD production and gone Blu-only. Like everything else in the world in case you missed it. I guess they were all wrong and your were right.


----------



## ebaltz

dhhaines said:


> I didn't keep the 40g after I found out it wasn't backwards compatible. The only 20 and 60s I've been able to find are refurbs and priced HIGHER then my BDP and the 80s are in the $500 range. Believe me I'm not cheap when it comes to electronics, but I think that the consumer got screwed by the content providers in this so called war. It will be until at least 2009 if ever before "Joe average" consumer buys into HD media.
> 
> Besides what kind of format is it that the so called best player is a game machine? How does that get the average person interested?


Well they sold about 10 million of those "gaming machines" and so interested quite a lot of average persons. It's a beautiful machine and when I tell people all that it does, they go buy one, and wonder how they lived without out before. THe Wii is a toy. The XBOX (when it isn't crashing) is a gaming machine. THe PS3 is a next generation media console.

BTW, the studios and retailers didn't decide it, the customer did who bought blu-ray players and media at a rate much higher than HD DVD, 2-1, 3--1 or better.


----------



## djlong

I wouldn't put too much stock in that MSNBC story - after MS owns part of that channel and were the ones that pressured Toshiba into keeping the format war going as long as they did.


----------



## Drew2k

ebaltz said:


> NO1B4ME said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep got that right. I have 80 HD DVD's myself with 2 HD players the Toshiba HD-A35 and the HD-A30. Both are Awesome players. I also have 40 BLu Ray discs and a Panasonic BD300.
> 
> The sound and PQ form my new Onkyo and these 2 players is Amazing. The new formats DTS True Master and DD + are insane. It saddens me that HD-DVD lost the war because IMO the format was better andthe players were chepaer and 10x better than any blu player out their.
> 
> 
> 
> Because cheaper means better of course? Could your HD DVD player run 1080p games? Could it browse the internet, play AVCHD discs, play SACD audio discs, catalog your CD collection, catalog your photo collection, do video and text chat, spool media from your computer? No? So in what way could it be better than the PS3?
> 
> BTW Onkyo has discontinued HD DVD production and gone Blu-only. Like everything else in the world in case you missed it. I guess they were all wrong and your were right.
Click to expand...

With all that extra time on your hands, you apparently neglected to work on your reading skills. What's your damage? NO1B4ME never mentioned PS3 in his post, yet you jump in defending the PS3 as if you are married to it and can have no one speak ill of it. If there is anyone qualified to speak of comparisons between the two formats, it's someone who owns both, and NO1B4ME qualifies.

The war is over, there was a winning side and a losing side. I know what your side was, but it's clear to me who the real loser is...

Now I'm off to update my IGNORE list...


----------



## texaswolf

djlong said:


> I wouldn't put too much stock in that MSNBC story - after MS owns part of that channel and were the ones that pressured Toshiba into keeping the format war going as long as they did.


As i had stated before, if Moneysoft REALLY wanted HDDVD to win they would have pushed the drives in the 360's like Sony did with the PS3, not to mention a majority of PC's. I'm actually surprised they didn't, unless they didnt want to take the financial gamble that Sony did with the PS3...but it's not like ol' Billy Gates doesn't have the dough to risk.


----------



## DCSholtis

Someone has forgotten to tell the UK the "war" is over. Shawshank Redemption and the Godfather Trilogy have just been announced in HD DVD.


----------



## machavez00

DCSholtis said:


> Someone has forgotten to tell the UK the "war" is over. Shawshank Redemption and the Godfather Trilogy have just been announced in HD DVD.


Godfather Trilogy, mmmm


----------



## Chris Blount

ebaltz said:


> Dream on.
> 
> Reminder, the MS in MSNBC stands for Mircosoft which supported HD DVD and now is playing sour grapes and trying to cause Blu-ray to fail as well. Didn't work to support HD DVD, this tactic will not either.
> 
> -1 for you.


So what you are saying is that Blu-Ray will be king of Hi-Def delivery?

-1 for you.


----------



## DCSholtis

machavez00 said:


> Godfather Trilogy, mmmm


Its up at AmazonUK...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Godfather-T...=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1203800437&sr=8-14

Shawshank Redemption is up at the WB movie store. That has a release date of November.


----------



## ebaltz

Chris Blount said:


> So what you are saying is that Blu-Ray will be king of Hi-Def delivery?
> 
> -1 for you.


Um in case you hadn't notice. It is. It won the format war and there is no other mass HD delivery system right now that is used more. Therefore it is and will be the kind of HD for some time to come.


----------



## Chris Blount

ebaltz said:


> Um in case you hadn't notice. It is. It won the format war and there is no other mass HD delivery system right now that is used more. Therefore it is and will be the kind of HD for some time to come.


Yikes! So what about cable and satellite. I'm sure the millions of hi-def subscribers might disagree with that assertion.


----------



## Leprechuan

Now I'm annoyed.
I finally go HD with my DVD player and now the format war is over.
What do I do now with my Toshiba HD-A2?
Will Toshiba release firmware so it will read Blu-ray disc?
What do I do with my HD DVD's I just got?

Yes, I am cranky.

Leprechuan


Moderation Note: [Tom Robertson]I merged this thread into the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray War" thread. Some conversation may be moderately disrupted.


----------



## Mike728

Just a random thought... I think vacations are sometimes too short.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Chris Blount said:


> Yikes! So what about cable and satellite. I'm sure the millions of hi-def subscribers might disagree with that assertion.


Agreed. And at $30 a disk, Blu-Ray isn't going to become main stream for some time! $400 for a player, and you have to have a High Def TV to watch it on (which many still don't have.) Blu-Ray still has a long way to go and could still become another laserdisk or DVHS medium. Oh, but I miss the HD / BR battle, that was when disks were cheap and I stocked my collection - now I'm sitting back and buying maybe 1 Blu-Ray per month.And I'd love to buy a second BR player, but not at $400! Yeah, Blu-Ray has a long way to go before it's truly won.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Your HD-A2 will not be upgraded to support Blu-Ray. But it will operate as a nice up-converting DVD Player and will continue to play your HD DVD Disks.


----------



## EXTREMUM

This is why I settled for an upconversion DVD player, until it was official.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Anyone remember where CD player/media prices were at this point in their cycle?
DVD Players? 

Blu-ray shouldn't have any problems either. (Had HD DVD won, they wouldn't have had problems.)

Early adopter prices are always higher then fall.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## apexmi

Tom Robertson said:


> Anyone remember where CD player/media prices were at this point in their cycle?
> DVD Players?
> 
> Blu-ray shouldn't have any problems either. (Had HD DVD won, they wouldn't have had problems.)
> 
> Early adopter prices are always higher then fall.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


As I see it the problem for the studios is the success that DVD has had, I don't see the masses replacing their DVD's with Blu-rays Like we all did going from VHS to DVD there was such a quality leap it was worth replacing. I won't replace but maybe a dozen or 2 of my 500+ DVD's. Even new releases may not justify the extra cost to go Blu over DVD for alot of movies.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Absolutely, the early adopter prices never replace previous technologies. They pay for the first round of R&D and prove the concept for the less expensive units (hardware and software) to follow.

My first CD player was $700! Now you can get them for $35--and play DVDs too.


----------



## chris0

Mike728 said:


> Just a random thought... I think vacations are sometimes too short.


They're enjoyable, though.


----------



## chris0

AlbertZeroK said:


> Agreed. And at $30 a disk, Blu-Ray isn't going to become main stream for some time! $400 for a player, and you have to have a High Def TV to watch it on (which many still don't have.) Blu-Ray still has a long way to go and could still become another laserdisk or DVHS medium. Oh, but I miss the HD / BR battle, that was when disks were cheap and I stocked my collection - now I'm sitting back and buying maybe 1 Blu-Ray per month.And I'd love to buy a second BR player, but not at $400! Yeah, Blu-Ray has a long way to go before it's truly won.


You need an HTDV to enjoy HD on cable and sat too, though. And as far as the sales on BDs...be patient. Even during "the war" movies weren't on sale all the time. The studios are still going to want to push more adoption of the format and sales will be offered periodically, especially at places like Amazon.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> Um in case you hadn't notice. It is. It won the format war and there is *no other mass HD delivery system right now that is used more*. Therefore it is and will be the kind of HD for some time to come.


I don't know about that.

Is it better quality than Sat/cable...hell yeah

would i rather watch that kind of quality all day....hell yeah

is it as widely adopted as sat/cable HD....no way.

i could have 50 BR or HDDVD movies, and still not be able to compete with the amount of HD put out by one HD premium in one month.


----------



## Richierich

Has anyone heard or read when Panasonic will release the DMP-BD50 BluRay Player for sale???


----------



## Richard King

Mike728 said:


> Just a random thought... I think vacations are sometimes too short.


I think there is little arguement on this fact.  I very much enjoyed my last vacation, and look forward to the next. Ah, the Rockies in true life HD. :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Leprechuan said:


> Now I'm annoyed.
> I finally go HD with my DVD player and now the format war is over.
> What do I do now with my Toshiba HD-A2?
> Will Toshiba release firmware so it will read Blu-ray disc?
> What do I do with my HD DVD's I just got?
> 
> Yes, I am cranky.
> 
> Leprechuan


What is the wavelength of the laser for HD DVD? If it is in the Blu range, potentially, but I thought it wasn't, though I could be wrong.


----------



## BlueSnake

DCSholtis said:


> Its up at AmazonUK...
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Godfather-T...=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1203800437&sr=8-14
> 
> Shawshank Redemption is up at the WB movie store. That has a release date of November.


And I just pre-ordered my copy!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

The Godfather UK Trilogy Import is an interesting example... If you do all the math, it is something like $38 for this import title. Even if shipping runs $8-$10 from the UK, you are still talking less than $50 shipped for 3 long and classic movies. Then I take a look at Blu ray MSRP and see $39.99... and even at Amazon prices these are still close to $30.

If the price-gap still stays around $30 for a new HD/Blu ray movie vs $15 for an SD DVD... the mass market simply will not adopt. The early adopters will pay a premium, but early adopters don't make the market work for very long.

This would be true regardless of whether Blu ray or HD DVD won... There's just not enough incentive to pay double the price for an HD copy of a movie for most people.

Look how many people on this forum think paying $10 or $20 per month for Dish or DirecTV HD channels is too much... and consider how much variety you get for those prices... and then figure out how paying $20-$30 per HD/Blu ray movie is expect to catch on to the mass market.


----------



## Pinion413

smiddy said:


> What is the wavelength of the laser for HD DVD?


Blue [email protected] The same as Blu-Ray.


----------



## Tom Robertson

My first LD was _Hunt for Red October_ at $30 when VHS copies were still $50-90 to purchase--to keep a strong rental market. I took my birthday and Christmas money on New Year's Day and caught a one day sale on the players and disk. (And got up pretty early for a New Year's Day.) 

Yup, disks ain't cheap yet. Yup, they need to fall. Yup, we all know they will. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## machavez00

Pinion413 said:


> Blue [email protected] The same as Blu-Ray.


The aperture is different


----------



## DCSholtis

Leprechuan said:


> Now I'm annoyed.
> I finally go HD with my DVD player and now the format war is over.
> What do I do now with my Toshiba HD-A2?
> Will Toshiba release firmware so it will read Blu-ray disc?
> What do I do with my HD DVD's I just got?
> 
> Yes, I am cranky.
> 
> Leprechuan
> 
> 
> Moderation Note: [Tom Robertson]I merged this thread into the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray War" thread. Some conversation may be moderately disrupted.


How about watching the HD DVDs you have already bought. That would be a great start. Just because the "war" is somewhat over does not mean your new A2 is obsolete. HD DVD deals are everywhere now. My advise is to buy up. That machine also upconverts SD DVDs beautifully as well. Relax and don't be so cranky...


----------



## Yoda-DBSguy

AlbertZeroK said:


> Agreed. And at $30 a disk, Blu-Ray isn't going to become main stream for some time! $400 for a player, and you have to have a High Def TV to watch it on (which many still don't have.) Blu-Ray still has a long way to go and could still become another laserdisk or DVHS medium. Oh, but I miss the HD / BR battle, that was when disks were cheap and I stocked my collection - now I'm sitting back and buying maybe 1 Blu-Ray per month.And I'd love to buy a second BR player, but not at $400! Yeah, Blu-Ray has a long way to go before it's truly won.


Actually there are a flurry of blu-ray players on the market at 349 and even a ps3 model at the 299 price point. You can't beat that with a stick now can you


----------



## apexmi

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> Actually there are a flurry of blu-ray players on the market at 349 and even a ps3 model at the 299 price point. You can't beat that with a stick now can you


still not anywhere near mass market adoption prices. :beatdeadhorse: :lol:


----------



## braven

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> Actually there are a flurry of blu-ray players on the market at 349 and even a ps3 model at the 299 price point. You can't beat that with a stick now can you


If you could provide the link to the $300 PS3, I'd appreciate it. I still haven't seen them lower than $400.


----------



## texaswolf

braven said:


> If you could provide the link to the $300 PS3, I'd appreciate it. I still haven't seen them lower than $400.


+1 where was this deal at? Im guessing it was only for the 40gb?


----------



## AlbertZeroK

texaswolf said:


> +1 where was this deal at? Im guessing it was only for the 40gb?


I think he's talking about the $100 savings when signing up for a Sony Credit Card?


----------



## BudShark

texaswolf said:


> I don't know about that.
> 
> Is it better quality than Sat/cable...hell yeah
> 
> would i rather watch that kind of quality all day....hell yeah
> 
> is it as widely adopted as sat/cable HD....no way.
> 
> i could have 50 BR or HDDVD movies, and still not be able to compete with the amount of HD put out by one HD premium in one month.


This is an interesting conversation - one that mixes a lot of things.

But at the end of the day, the comparison between Blu-Ray cable/sat is no different than what we had 2-3 years ago with DVD vs cable/sat.

Movies were available in digital quality from HBO/Showtime/Encore/PPV all the while DVD took off and was the "format" for movies. No one disputed that.

So why are we now saying Cable/Sat are competing (and perhaps a better) HD medium for movies than Blu-Ray :grin:

Which is it? Did cable/sat present a better medium than DVDs? No. Has anything changed in the marketplace? Not that I've seen. In the past 4-5 years DVD quality downloads, PPV, etc were available to the masses - and yet DVD stood tall and proud. Now, we've moved to HD movies and On-Demand, cable, sat, PPV, etc are "almost" ready... what in the past history gives any indication that when its "ready" it will overtake a physical medium like BD?

Chris


----------



## Drew2k

The points made on the comparison of cable/sat to High Def discs were more about refuting one poster's claims that there is no more widely distributed delivery method for HD movies than discs. No one was discussing "quality" or which is "better", the responses were just pointing out one person was dead wrong on a claim.


----------



## texaswolf

BudShark said:


> This is an interesting conversation - one that mixes a lot of things.
> 
> But at the end of the day, the comparison between Blu-Ray cable/sat is no different than what we had 2-3 years ago with DVD vs cable/sat.
> 
> Movies were available in digital quality from HBO/Showtime/Encore/PPV all the while DVD took off and was the "format" for movies. No one disputed that.
> 
> So why are we now saying Cable/Sat are competing (and perhaps a better) HD medium for movies than Blu-Ray :grin:
> 
> Which is it? Did cable/sat present a better medium than DVDs? No. Has anything changed in the marketplace? Not that I've seen. In the past 4-5 years DVD quality downloads, PPV, etc were available to the masses - and yet DVD stood tall and proud. Now, we've moved to HD movies and On-Demand, cable, sat, PPV, etc are "almost" ready... what in the past history gives any indication that when its "ready" it will overtake a physical medium like BD?
> 
> Chris


oh i know...i was simply responding to the mass delivery system right now part.



> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by ebaltz View Post
> Um in case you hadn't notice. It is. It won the format war and *there is no other mass HD delivery system right now that is used more*. Therefore it is and will be the kind of HD for some time to come.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about that.
> 
> Is it better quality than Sat/cable...hell yeah
> 
> would i rather watch that kind of quality all day....hell yeah
> 
> is it as widely adopted as sat/cable HD....no way.
> 
> i could have 50 BR or HDDVD movies, and still not be able to compete with the amount of HD put out by one HD premium in one month.
Click to expand...


----------



## bobukcat

BlueSnake said:


> And I just pre-ordered my copy!


I can't help but wonder how long these HDDVD releases will continue in the UK if no one (Toshiba) is making low-cost players anymore???


----------



## DCSholtis

LG will continue to make duel players so HD DVD won't be fading away player wise anytime soon.


----------



## bobukcat

DCSholtis said:


> LG will continue to make duel players so HD DVD won't be fading away player wise anytime soon.


But these will be selling at premium pricing, so the install base percentage of HDDVD capable players will almost certainly shrink at a very fast pace. I'll be shocked if anyone, in any country, is releasing HD DVD releases by the middle of summer. I'm amazed at how quickly all the most recent events occured but I expect that pace to continue now that it has momentum built.


----------



## Yoda-DBSguy

braven said:


> If you could provide the link to the $300 PS3, I'd appreciate it. I still haven't seen them lower than $400.


Straight from sony. As another person mentioned the current 399.00 model is 100 off when you use a sony credit card thats easy enough to get. For those with bad credit you can do a search on google for PS3+299 and come up with several places that still have the old 20 gig model at that price still new in a box or a 40 gig refurbised unit (take your pick).


----------



## Yoda-DBSguy

apexmi said:


> still not anywhere near mass market adoption prices. :beatdeadhorse: :lol:


I beg to differ with the sales of HD sets though the roof at this point. Most people can also get an additional 100-400 off their hd tv and blu-ray package when purchased togeather at places like bestbuy etc. So in the end it's a bundeled bonus that turns out to be free.


----------



## DCSholtis

bobukcat said:


> But these will be selling at premium pricing, so the install base percentage of HDDVD capable players will almost certainly shrink at a very fast pace. I'll be shocked if anyone, in any country, is releasing HD DVD releases by the middle of summer. I'm amazed at how quickly all the most recent events occured but I expect that pace to continue now that it has momentum built.


It's my believe that the import market will continue to thrive at least thru the rest of this year as long as they see sales.


----------



## Cholly

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> Actually there are a flurry of blu-ray players on the market at 349 and even a ps3 model at the 299 price point. You can't beat that with a stick now can you


In looking at pricegrabber.com today, I find exactly 4 Blu-ray Disc players below $349, and three of them are Samsung players. Hardly a flurry.


----------



## Yoda-DBSguy

Cholly said:


> In looking at pricegrabber.com today, I find exactly 4 Blu-ray Disc players below $349, and three of them are Samsung players. Hardly a flurry.





Yoda-DBSguy said:


> Actually there are a flurry of blu-ray players on the market at 349 and even a ps3 model at the 299 price point. You can't beat that with a stick now can you


Then you dind't look close enough. Here's a couple more to add to your list and also lower the price point then the above aformentioned amount to boot:

Sharp BD-HP20U (Home Player) $339.98
Samsung BD-P1400 (Home Player) $339.98
Sony BDU-X10S (Internal Computer Drive) $189.98

There are more as well, however this was yielded with literally a 30 second search on buy.com


----------



## Yoda-DBSguy

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> Then you dind't look close enough. Here's a couple more to add to your list and also lower the price point then the above aformentioned amount to boot:
> 
> Sharp BD-HP20U (Home Player) $339.98
> Samsung BD-P1400 (Home Player) $339.98
> Sony BDU-X10S (Internal Computer Drive) $189.98
> 
> There are more as well, however this was yielded with literally a 30 second search on buy.com


And yet more:
SONY BDP-S300 (Home Player) $299.00 + 5 FREE Blu-ray Movies by Mail
(fry's/oupost.com)

LG LIGHTSCRIBE 6X BLU-RAY R/RW w/ 3X HD DVD-ROMS (Home Player) $349.99 (fry's/outpost.com)

Pioneer BDC-2202B5PK Blu-Ray DVD-/+RW/CD-RW Combo (Black) Bezel Drive (Internal Computer Drive) $199.00 (fry's/outpost.com)

LITE-ON SATA BLACK BLU-RAY DVD-ROM DRIVE (Internal Computer Drive) $179.99 (fry's/outpost.com)

Pioneer BDC-2202A5PK Blu-Ray DVD-/+RW/CD-RW Combo (Biege) Bezel Drive (Internal Computer Drive) $199.99 (fry's/outpost.com)


----------



## machavez00

all 1.0 players


----------



## Yoda-DBSguy

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> And yet more:
> SONY BDP-S300 (Home Player) $299.00 + 5 FREE Blu-ray Movies by Mail
> (fry's/oupost.com)
> 
> LG LIGHTSCRIBE 6X BLU-RAY R/RW w/ 3X HD DVD-ROMS (Home Player) $349.99 (fry's/outpost.com)
> 
> Pioneer BDC-2202B5PK Blu-Ray DVD-/+RW/CD-RW Combo (Black) Bezel Drive (Internal Computer Drive) $199.00 (fry's/outpost.com)
> 
> LITE-ON SATA BLACK BLU-RAY DVD-ROM DRIVE (Internal Computer Drive) $179.99 (fry's/outpost.com)
> 
> Pioneer BDC-2202A5PK Blu-Ray DVD-/+RW/CD-RW Combo (Biege) Bezel Drive (Internal Computer Drive) $199.99 (fry's/outpost.com)


And yet more:

SAMSUNG Blu-ray Disc Player BD-P1400 (Home Player) $329.99 (newegg.com)

LITE-ON Black SATA Blu-ray DVD-ROM Drive Model DH-4O1S-08 (Internal Computer Drive) $149.99 (newegg.com)

LITE-ON Black SATA Blu-ray DVD-ROM Drive Model DH-4O1S-11 - OEM (Internal Computer Drive) $129.99 (newegg.com)

And like the energizer bunny I could just keep going, and going and going, and......

*That's the true definition of flurry now isn't it? *


----------



## Mike728

I guess Microsoft finally threw in the towel.
Link


----------



## smiddy

Post 4k, Microsoft is done with HD DVD:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ifXeLMB28kre9AK-YgVq7Y4ZEJ9wD8V0RI780


----------



## ebaltz

DCSholtis said:


> LG will continue to make duel players so HD DVD won't be fading away player wise anytime soon.


WHo would be stupid enough to buy one?


----------



## Tom Robertson

The same people who might consider buying a LD/DVD combo player a few years ago. People who already have a large collection they wish to maintain. If the price differential for a combo player isn't too huge, it would be less expensive than re-buying the collection.

So, why do you wish to call people stupid? Seems like bad form to me. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## texaswolf

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> Straight from sony. As another person mentioned the current 399.00 model is 100 off when you use a sony credit card thats easy enough to get. For those with bad credit you can do a search on google for PS3+299 and come up with several places that still have the old 20 gig model at that price still new in a box or a 40 gig refurbised unit (take your pick).


PS3+299 = http://www.google.com/search?q=PS3+...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

The only thing in that search, not from 2005, are guys on a message board talking about someone getting a PS3 for $299 at a best buy, and rumors of Best Buy lowering the 40gb to $299.

Sony raped the backward compatibility out of the 40gb, in order to stop losing money on every console sold...at the $399 price....why would they lower it...and offer the 20gb that is BC for the same amount?

Whenever i have asked the BB guys about PS3 sales....they tell me that, on the game consoles, the manufacturer sets the price and sales, they don't...if Sony tells them they can lower it, they will, if not, they don't. (take it for what it's worth, it is BB staff)

Now had Sony offered that credit card deal on a 20gb or 60gb model, i might have done it....but not the 40gb.



> machavez00 all 1.0 players


ok thanks.....thats what i was wondering


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> WHo would be stupid enough to buy one?


I guess the same kind of people who bought into Betamax, Minidisc, Sony Dynamic Digital Sound, HiFD, and the MusicClip...just because things may end up being market failures, doesn't make people "stupid" for buying them.


----------



## elaclair

bobukcat said:


> I'll be shocked if anyone, in any country, is releasing HD DVD releases by the middle of summer.


Sales not-withstanding, I would expect that any studio that has already prepared an HD-DVD master of a movie would go ahead and release it to try and recoup at least some of their mastering costs.


----------



## Tom Robertson

elaclair,

You make a good point. I'm sure some companies will try to do that--if the subsequent sales also would offset the final manufacturing costs. Anything far enough in the pipeline today will likely do exactly as you suggest.


Do you or anyone else know how much of the mastering for one format can carry over into the other format? Seems like the pre-production, basic extras generation (deleted scenes, commentary recordings, packaging design, etc.), and some of the marketing plans all will carry over nicely.

What I suspect won't is the final authoring (tho edit lists probably can), the commentary production using PIP, and menuing. 

Anyone know?

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## machavez00

saw Sony S1 on clearance at CC for $249. I did not see any boxes, though


----------



## machavez00

Well, I finally hooked up the PS3. I rented T3 to compare it to the red version I have. The color looked a _little_ better on the PS3, but overall both version looked outstanding.


----------



## HIPAR

I would like to know what manufacturer would be stupid enough to make dual mode players after those already in the supply pipeline are sold. There aren't enough HD-DVDs out there bought by stupid people (like me) to guarantee selling them to legacy users will be profitable.

--- CHAS


----------



## DCSholtis

LG has announced they will continue to supply, manufacture them. Samsung announced they are quitting.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Concerning the "why would anyone release HD DVD movies anymore" concept...

Consider... no HD DVD or Blu ray title has sold to date more than about 150,000 copies... and that only happened a few times with some blockbuster movies. No catalog title has sold anywhere near that number.

So while it's all well and good to talk about 1 million HD DVD players (presumably no more to be made) and 8-10 million Blu ray players and growing (counting PS3s for the purposes of this argument)... only a small portion of people who invested in players are actually buying the movies being released.

So... why would you cut off sales of say 50-100,000 copies of an HD DVD movie when your Blu ray sales may only be 100,000 for that movie anyway? If you've spent the money on mastering, you might as well go ahead and make an HD DVD copy available as well.

Argue all we want about HD DVD being a "dead" technology... but if even 10% of the HD DVD owners keep buying new releases, that's still on par with the average buying habits of the Blu ray purchases.

Yes, more Blu ray movies are being bought than HD... but not by a wide margin. Those 80:20% sales quotes aren't as meaningful as we are sometimes led to believe... when the 80:20% is applied to a quantity of 100,000 or less movies in a given week.

Until Blu ray starts pulling in large weekly sales numbers (not just percentage of sales)... it could still be profitable for some HD DVD releases.

Consider, although it may not happen with Warner after June, Dark Knight... which would most assuredly sell HD DVD copies even if it sold more on Blu ray.

The same "why keep making them" argument could be applied to Blu ray when compared to standard DVD sales. If a title sells 8 million on DVD and less than 100,000 on Blu ray, why make the Blu ray at all?

The answer, of course, is to make money... which is why we will still see some HD DVD releases, particularly overseas, as long as people buy them at about the same rate they have been thus far.


----------



## HIPAR

HDMe said:


> Concerning the "why would anyone release HD DVD movies anymore" concept...


Your argument is a good one based upon what's happening now but HD DVDs sales will diminish to zero within a year after Blu ray is accepted as the HD media standard.

Interest in HD media will expand as old analog TVs are replaced by digital sets when the DTV transition is completed forcing cable systems expand their HD offerings. Give the general public another year to catch on.

--- CHAS


----------



## texaswolf

HIPAR said:


> Your argument is a good based upon what's happening now but HD DVDs sales will diminish to zero within a year after Blu ray is accepted as the HD media standard.
> 
> Interest in HD media will expand as old analog TVs are replaced by digital sets when the DTV transition is completed forcing cable systems expand their HD offerings. Give the general public another year to catch on.
> 
> --- CHAS


I don't think it will catch on as quick as that...the difference now, is that a lot of people will be happy renting and recording a HD PPV, or recording HD premium channels. They can rent (ex.) Pirates: at worlds end for $5, save it on the hard drive, and have it for as long as they want. If they don't have a high def player to see what they are missing, they wont care, and they wont spent the $250 (one day) and up, because they are happy with the quality of the picture their sat/cable HD gives them.

Us on here know the big difference, but average joes? If they didn't bite on $99-$159 high def players...they wont bite on BR's either.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

HIPAR said:


> Your argument is a good one based upon what's happening now but HD DVDs sales will diminish to zero within a year after Blu ray is accepted as the HD media standard.


It has to not only become the HD media standard, but has to be in demand. Right now, the HD media market is about 2% when compared to standard DVDs... so until that piece of the pie becomes larger for Blu ray, even without HD DVD as competition there will not be a lot of sales.

That's the odd thing about a forced decision here. It's not like Blu ray won completely on the merits of its quality and demand by consumers. At this point, its as if there never was a war at all and Blu ray is still an early adopter situation... so it can still fail if not enough people jump on the train.

That's why, to me, it just makes sense that some companies may still be releasing HD DVD movies for at least the remainder of this year, possibly into next.

Remember, Laserdisc wasn't a "successful" format, and yet there are some fairly recent movies that were released on that format well after it "lost" to DVD. There's no reason for HD DVD to disappear completely overnight.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

texaswolf said:


> Us on here know the big difference, but average joes? If they didn't bite on $99-$159 high def players...they wont bite on BR's either.


This may be the most damning piece of evidence thus far. Folks on these forums have already spent their money. Some of us may buy Blu ray that haven't already, but even then not too big a shift in the market.

Unless and until the rest of the consumers start piling on, this could still end badly for Blu ray too.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe,

LD did not lose to DVD. Not by a long-shot. They were not contemporaries.
LD "lost" to VHS (and CCD disks). Yet it was a successful format in that it was a niche format that successfully catered to a specific crowd.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are direct competitors ultimately going after the same market--mass media. To replace DVD. Just as DVD went after that very same market formerly held by VHS.

HD-DVD will hold the same place in the market the Betamax did, actually less so as HD-DVD never was adopted by the professional part of the market in production studios. Betamax at least had variants in production facilities for a very long time.

HD-DVD now will die, fairly quickly, in my opinion. The $100 units didn't sell because, generally mind you, the people who would spend $100 on a next generation did know about the war. And waited.

Now people will be able to invest in the winning format as their budget and interest permits. Normally early adopters like myself who waited will jump in. As price points are met, each new group will buy in. 

DVD will be replaced, most likely by Blu-Ray. There is nothing else this close to being ready in the market.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## texaswolf

Tom Robertson said:



> HDMe,
> 
> LD did not lose to DVD. Not by a long-shot. They were not contemporaries.
> LD "lost" to VHS (and CCD disks). Yet it was a successful format in that it was a niche format that successfully catered to a specific crowd.
> 
> HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are direct competitors ultimately going after the same market--mass media. To replace DVD. Just as DVD went after that very same market formerly held by VHS.
> 
> HD-DVD will hold the same place in the market the Betamax did, actually less so as HD-DVD never was adopted by the professional part of the market in production studios. Betamax at least had variants in production facilities for a very long time.
> 
> HD-DVD now will die, fairly quickly, in my opinion. The $100 units didn't sell because, generally mind you, the people who would spend $100 on a next generation did know about the war. And waited.
> 
> Now people will be able to invest in the winning format as their budget and interest permits. Normally early adopters like myself who waited will jump in. As price points are met, each new group will buy in.
> 
> DVD will be replaced, most likely by Blu-Ray. There is nothing else this close to being ready in the market.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I think your right that a lot of people were waiting for the war to end, but not enough to replace DVD anytime soon. Think about it, DVD players are in most households, and can play on any tv...but people buying HD players are going to have to have HDTV's (and more than likely newer ones, if they are spending dough on players). So in order for it to replace DVD you will need HD sets in most households....i don't think we are there yet.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I guess we need to define "soon" in this context. This week, no way. (Obviously.) 

By the end of 2008? I sure don't think so. We might see significant movement, but replacement? Noper. 

How about end of 2009? Well... here I start being uncertain. Things can happen fairly quickly but... I don't see next gen replacing DVD yet, but my guess is we'll see players and unit sales start to be a significant percentage of movie sales. My rough guess, 30-40%? Who knows? 

2010? Yes. Definitely. Maybe...  (Fun movie.) 

It all boils down to how fast the next generation of less expensive players get out there and how fast prices fall on software. 

We know that if the discs were the exact same price as DVDs today, DVDs would still (greatly) outsell Blu-ray--for at least a few months. Exactly because of the reasons you state. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## texaswolf

Tom Robertson said:


> I guess we need to define "soon" in this context. This week, no way. (Obviously.)
> 
> By the end of 2008? I sure don't think so. We might see significant movement, but replacement? Noper.
> 
> How about end of 2009? Well... here I start being uncertain. Things can happen fairly quickly but... I don't see next gen replacing DVD yet, but my guess is we'll see players and unit sales start to be a significant percentage of movie sales. My rough guess, 30-40%? Who knows?
> 
> 2010? Yes. Definitely. Maybe...  (Fun movie.)
> 
> It all boils down to how fast the next generation of less expensive players get out there and how fast prices fall on software.
> 
> We know that if the discs were the exact same price as DVDs today, DVDs would still (greatly) outsell Blu-ray--for at least a few months. Exactly because of the reasons you state.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


 now that time frame, maybe DVD had to contend with PPV eventually, but not the DVR in a large scale...BR will be competing not only with HD ppv from providers....but also now with external storage. Like i said i have a ton of HD movies on my external...those are movies i wont buy on BR or HDDVD...the great looking movies I'll buy for sure....but why spend $25+ for a movie, where quality isn't that big of a deal? That is the kind of thing i think may hurt BR...and even HDDVD if it was still in.


----------



## ebaltz

texaswolf said:


> I guess the same kind of people who bought into Betamax, Minidisc, Sony Dynamic Digital Sound, HiFD, and the MusicClip...just because things may end up being market failures, doesn't make people "stupid" for buying them.


If you buy them after the war is over, IMO, you are. But hey, if they want to through good money after bad...have at it.


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> Consider... no HD DVD or Blu ray title has sold to date more than about 150,000 copies...


You've said that so often you might consider saving yourself some time and just putting it in your sig.

Edit: And I believe the numbers you keep quoting are for reported first week sales of certain movies. The discs keep selling after the first week. For example, Casino Royale is estimated to have sold 100,000 copies in the first week. That was almost a year ago. I don't think anyone has released cumulative sales for HDM, only first week sales numbers.

Edit again: I looks like it shipped 100,000 copies in the first week but only sold 59,000. My point is still valid though.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> HDMe,
> 
> LD did not lose to DVD. Not by a long-shot. They were not contemporaries.
> LD "lost" to VHS (and CCD disks). Yet it was a successful format in that it was a niche format that successfully catered to a specific crowd.


That's why I put "lost" in quotes like that... Laserdisc was before DVD, and really ahead of its time in my opinion. Had it come out a couple of years later than it did, it might have gained more traction. Then again, it might have lost in a head-to-head vs DVD if it ever came to that back in the day. We'll never know of course.

My main point was that Laserdisc "lost" long ago, and yet many people still have players and movies... and until about 6 or 7 years ago there were apparently still a few new releases that came out in that format. I see no reason why this cannot be true for HD DVD for several years to come.



Tom Robertson said:


> DVD will be replaced, most likely by Blu-Ray. There is nothing else this close to being ready in the market.


Sometimes a generation of technology gets skipped... like DAT. I remember seeing that, and it was supposed to be the next best thing after cassette tape because it was digital like CDs but recordable. That never really caught on for consumers, and to some extent I would argue that MP3 players are today's technology answering the needs of consumers who used to want cassette tapes but wanted something "better."


----------



## Stewart Vernon

chris0 said:


> You've said that so often you might consider saving yourself some time and just putting it in your sig.
> 
> Edit: And I believe the numbers you keep quoting are for reported first week sales of certain movies. The discs keep selling after the first week. For example, Casino Royale is estimated to have sold 100,000 copies in the first week. That was almost a year ago. I don't think anyone has released cumulative sales for HDM, only first week sales numbers.
> 
> Edit again: I looks like it shipped 100,000 copies in the first week but only sold 59,000. My point is still valid though.


True.. I've not seen cumulative numbers... but also as you point out, many times the numbers that have been quoted are shipped numbers rather than sales. Also, some of the actual sales numbers have been disputed. In any case, even if you add cumulative sales I highly doubt we have any title that has gone beyond 200,000 since inception. Given the propensity for people to quote sales numbers, I suspect any title on HD DVD or Blu ray that attained such a sales plateau would no doubt be reported often and I've seen no such reports.

Also, consider that the 8 million copy number for a DVD blockbuster was also first week sales, and those too have continued to be sold... so all the numbers keep going up for both DVD and HD/Blu ray with time.. but the HD/Blu ray have consistently started so far behind vs DVD that they are barely worth mentioning. This is why you never see a Blu ray vs DVD or HD DVD vs DVD ratio comparison. Nobody really wants to be reminded of how few consumers are buying into these "next gen" movie formats.


----------



## Chris Blount

Here's a little more to chew on. This would have happened not matter what format won.

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9877031-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Chris Blount said:


> Here's a little more to chew on. This would have happened not matter what format won.
> 
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9877031-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5


Funny but I never thought of On-Demand as being anything comparable to owning a DVD. On-Demand is the next big thing to cable, not the next best thing to owning movies. I think in the end consumers want to hold the movie they buy - I know I would.

And what's up with the drop in DVD sales, is that total number of DVD's sold, or price point. It seems to me disks have gotten cheaper over the years so I wonder if that has anything to do with falling numbers?


----------



## bobukcat

I don't know if it's related to them going BD exclusive, the end of the format war or just random luck but all of the BD titles in my Netflix queue are available "now". Before many of them were at least a short wait, with several being very long wait. Hopefully this means they bought more BD versions of the movies with wait times and will continue to do so for all new releases too!


----------



## RAD

Chris Blount said:


> Here's a little more to chew on. This would have happened not matter what format won.
> 
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9877031-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5


From the link "Assuming a one-hour high-definition TV show (with commercials) is around 5GB, that requires 1,388,888 kilobytes per second or 1.38 megabytes per second to watch. "

That comes out to needing throughput of a bit over 11Mb/sec to watch something in realtime. The vast majority of the country doesn't have that bandwidth to their homes. I look at the byte rate meter on my PS3 while watching some movies and it's almost always much higher then that. Sorry, but not going to be taking a step backwards.


----------



## bobukcat

AlbertZeroK said:


> Funny but I never thought of On-Demand as being anything comparable to owning a DVD. On-Demand is the next big thing to cable, not the next best thing to owning movies. I think in the end consumers want to hold the movie they buy - I know I would.
> 
> And what's up with the drop in DVD sales, is that total number of DVD's sold, or price point. It seems to me disks have gotten cheaper over the years so I wonder if that has anything to do with falling numbers?


+1 Those are my thoughts on both points.


----------



## jims

In the mid 80's laserdisk were only available in two markets, California and New York. I know because I was interested in the technology but it never made it to the DC area and friends in California were telling me about it. A comparison of LD to DVD, VHS, BD, and HD DVD probably isn't appropriate.

I think when the true over the net use of video occurs, it will not only mean the downfall of Blue but also of DBS. A lot cheaper and more open means of delivery. As was said earlier, with geographic restrictions the VOD option will be a ways away.


----------



## dhhaines

AlbertZeroK said:


> Funny but I never thought of On-Demand as being anything comparable to owning a DVD. On-Demand is the next big thing to cable, not the next best thing to owning movies. I think in the end consumers want to hold the movie they buy - I know I would.
> 
> And what's up with the drop in DVD sales, is that total number of DVD's sold, or price point. It seems to me disks have gotten cheaper over the years so I wonder if that has anything to do with falling numbers?


 I agree with you on the VOD not even comparable to owning a hard copy of media... be it DVD/CD/Blu_ray or whatever. I don't know why this keeps getting rehashed as the "next big thing" in movie media. Maybe it could replace movie rental B&M stores.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jims said:


> In the mid 80's laserdisk were only available in two markets, California and New York. I know because I was interested in the technology but it never made it to the DC area and friends in California were telling me about it. A comparison of LD to DVD, VHS, BD, and HD DVD probably isn't appropriate.
> 
> I think when the true over the net use of video occurs, it will not only mean the downfall of Blue but also of DBS. A lot cheaper and more open means of delivery. As was said earlier, with geographic restrictions the VOD option will be a ways away.


"Whatcha talkin' about, Willis?" 

I was buying LDs in Terre Haute, IN without any problems at all. Rented them and/or bought in Chicago, Green Bay, and Phoenix for many years. Lots of video stores in the malls all had them.

True over the net video will not replace a DVR with satellite or cable anytime soon. The current internet networks can't handle the traffic of 120million homes video streams. Far, far more efficient to broadcast to the end users and let them time-shift.

It might put a small bite into HBO--but wait, they are leading that curve too. They will just shift their model somewhat. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stewart Vernon

jims said:


> In the mid 80's laserdisk were only available in two markets, California and New York. I know because I was interested in the technology but it never made it to the DC area and friends in California were telling me about it.


While never buying into Laserdisc myself... I do remember seeing it in NC back in the day... and also had a relative in Maryland who owned one, so I'd be surprised if you didn't see them in the DC area.


----------



## RAD

jims said:


> In the mid 80's laserdisk were only available in two markets, California and New York.


As others have said, not accurate, I was able to get LD players and media for purchase and rent in a number of locations in the Chicagoland area.


----------



## HIPAR

Chris Blount said:


> Here's a little more to chew on. This would have happened not matter what format won.
> 
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9877031-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5


Well I just put my house up for sale intending to move to a location where I can buy 20+ megabit internet. I guess I'll need to go where FIOS is available. I can't go where there's cable because I'll get 'Sandvined' as a bandwidth hog.

--- CHAS


----------



## jims

I had remembered seeing laserdisk in the late 70's in DC and in the 80's I was talking to some people in Santa Clara that were really into them and I thought they had died out because of not seeing them in electronics stores in DC/MD suburbs. When I looked into it, I read that it was big in NY and CA. But I stand corrected by two people  which is good. I always thought that the format was better and the closest I came to seeing one was at an training facility.


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> True.. I've not seen cumulative numbers... but also as you point out, many times the numbers that have been quoted are shipped numbers rather than sales. Also, some of the actual sales numbers have been disputed. In any case, even if you add cumulative sales I highly doubt we have any title that has gone beyond 200,000 since inception. Given the propensity for people to quote sales numbers, I suspect any title on HD DVD or Blu ray that attained such a sales plateau would no doubt be reported often and I've seen no such reports.
> 
> Also, consider that the 8 million copy number for a DVD blockbuster was also first week sales, and those too have continued to be sold... so all the numbers keep going up for both DVD and HD/Blu ray with time.. but the HD/Blu ray have consistently started so far behind vs DVD that they are barely worth mentioning. This is why you never see a Blu ray vs DVD or HD DVD vs DVD ratio comparison. Nobody really wants to be reminded of how few consumers are buying into these "next gen" movie formats.


I'm not sure why you keep focusing on how small HDM is when compared to DVD. It's still relatively new, of course it's no where near the size of DVD. No one expects it to be. Mass adoption doesn't happen overnight. Not with vinyl vs. cassette tape, tape vs. cd, vhs vs. dvd, b&w TV vs. color TV, etc.

But HDM is growing, and now that there's one dominant format, a fact that has made it into national news broadcasts, it should continue to grow and will most likely grow at faster rate now. Sales of HD sets are taking off, and even though adoption of actual HD content from sat, cable and HDM is behind that curve, once people taste HD they'll want more. Blu-ray is going to be a part of that.


----------



## machavez00

RAD said:


> As others have said, not accurate, I was able to get LD players and media for purchase and rent in a number of locations in the Chicagoland area.


we had a LD rental store, Laser Video Paradise, now DVD Video Paradise. They even had adult titles on LD, not that I would rent those:sure:


----------



## jims

I have friends who have FIOS and No VA was one of the original test markets. They have said that the picture is outstanding compared to cable and they have internet speeds that rival T3 connections. I don't have a choice myself and a clear determining factor IMHO is that DBS currently delivers a lot more channels then FIOS or cable.


----------



## elaclair

jims said:


> I had remembered seeing laserdisk in the late 70's in DC and in the 80's I was talking to some people in Santa Clara that were really into them and I thought they had died out because of not seeing them in electronics stores in DC/MD suburbs. When I looked into it, I read that it was big in NY and CA. But I stand corrected by two people  which is good. I always thought that the format was better and the closest I came to seeing one was at an training facility.


Not to beat this horse too badly, but my favorite video store in Fayetteville Arkansas had just about every LD title available, and the local audio store was a major distributor for Pioneer....which is where I bought my current LD player.


----------



## jims

elaclair said:


> Not to beat this horse too badly, but my favorite video store in Fayetteville Arkansas had just about every LD title available, and the local audio store was a major distributor for Pioneer....which is where I bought my current LD player.


This forum is a testiment to that you can successfully beat a dead horse... It is good to know that a lot of people had availability to LD.


----------



## texaswolf

ebaltz said:


> If you buy them after the war is over, IMO, you are. But hey, if they want to through good money after bad...have at it.


yeah, i can understand that. If microsoft lowers the HDDVD add on player to $49 as the rumor says...you may see a lot of it...hell for $50 and low priced movies....360 owners might as well.


----------



## syphix

texaswolf said:


> yeah, i can understand that. If microsoft lowers the HDDVD add on player to $49 as the rumor says...you may see a lot of it...hell for $50 and low priced movies....360 owners might as well.


Already lowered to $49.99.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1471498&postcount=47


----------



## Richard King

RAD said:


> As others have said, not accurate, I was able to get LD players and media for purchase and rent in a number of locations in the Chicagoland area.


Ditto in Minnesnowta. I was buying them at a little local store in the Minneapolis burbs for my Toshiba LD player. I worked for a company that sold display devices (they actually provide all the video walls for Best Buy) and would burn their own LD's for clients in the mid 80's.

Edit.... added before I realized that the horse had been beaten to death.


----------



## west99999

I seen that Microsoft has annouced they will no longer be putting HD-DVD drives in the X-box. So it looks like the battle between the 2 is just about over.


----------



## syphix

west99999 said:


> I seen that Microsoft has annouced they will no longer be putting HD-DVD drives in the X-box. So it looks like the battle between the 2 is just about over.


What?? Microsoft never DID put HD-DVD drives in the XBOX 360...they offered an OPTIONAL HD-DVD add-on drive, which they just discontinued because...um...HD-DVD was already pronounced dead by Toshiba.


----------



## texaswolf

dhhaines said:


> I agree with you on the VOD not even comparable to owning a hard copy of media... be it DVD/CD/Blu_ray or whatever. I don't know why this keeps getting rehashed as the "next big thing" in movie media. Maybe it could replace movie rental B&M stores.


All i can re-hash is the experience i and others have with E* and the external drive. A lot of people will want the media in hand, but a lot of people will enjoy the ease of starting any of their movies with a flip of the remote. Average joes wont know the quality difference as compared to a HD player. Not to mention ...it's a reat way to "preview" a movie on HD....if it looks good on Sat. HD, you know it will look sweet on a HD player.

Movies recorded from HD premium channels and PPV's have replaced my DVD collection, and saved me a lot of money on "non HD worthy" movies. WHen i want to watch a movie, just access the external through the 622...simple....a lot of people will like that....however, when i want to enjoy a bad a$$ movie, i kick out the wifey and pop a disc in the HDDVD or BR player and crank it up...

I guess it's just easier to see it as a possibility, when i already have it.


----------



## machavez00

syphix said:


> What?? Microsoft never DID put HD-DVD drives in the XBOX 360...they offered an OPTIONAL HD-DVD add-on drive, which they just discontinued because...um...HD-DVD was already pronounced dead by Toshiba.


Had M$ put HD DVD drives in the 360 from the get go me thinks there would have been a different outcome :grin:


----------



## texaswolf

machavez00 said:


> Had M$ put HD DVD drives in the 360 from the get go me thinks there would have been a different outcome :grin:


+1

or at least a strong battle going on.


----------



## BLWedge09

texaswolf said:


> All i can re-hash is the experience i and others have with E* and the external drive. A lot of people will want the media in hand, but a lot of people will enjoy the ease of starting any of their movies with a flip of the remote. Average joes wont know the quality difference as compared to a HD player. Not to mention ...it's a reat way to "preview" a movie on HD....if it looks good on Sat. HD, you know it will look sweet on a HD player.
> 
> Movies recorded from HD premium channels and PPV's have replaced my DVD collection, and saved me a lot of money on "non HD worthy" movies. WHen i want to watch a movie, just access the external through the 622...simple....a lot of people will like that....however, when i want to enjoy a bad a$$ movie, i kick out the wifey and pop a disc in the HDDVD or BR player and crank it up...
> 
> I guess it's just easier to see it as a possibility, when i already have it.


I see it as a possibility for some as well. It won't be for everyone though. Basically, it's the same as the cd/music download situation. Some people still want a medium that they can physically touch. Others are content to download a file and put it on their portable player. Admittedly, with music you also have the availability of single tracks working for the download side of the argument, but you get my overall point....


----------



## machavez00

texaswolf said:


> +1
> 
> or at least a strong battle going on.


What suprises me is all the reviews I have seen so far, CNET included, rate the PS3 the best BD player on the market.


----------



## syphix

machavez00 said:


> What gets me is all the reviews I have seen so far, CNET included, rate the PS3 the best BD player on the market.


Is that saying something GOOD about the PS3, or something BAD about the state of BD players on the market?...I honestly have wondered about that.


----------



## machavez00

Editors best BD players
http://reviews.cnet.com/4370-9991_7-197-102.html?tag=lnav


----------



## texaswolf

BLWedge09 said:


> I see it as a possibility for some as well. It won't be for everyone though. Basically, it's the same as the cd/music download situation. Some people still want a medium that they can physically touch. Others are content to download a file and put it on their portable player. Admittedly, with music you also have the availability of single tracks working for the download side of the argument, but you get my overall point....


Yeah i get what your saying, and agree.


----------



## ebaltz

machavez00 said:


> What gets me is all the reviews I have seen so far, CNET included, rate the PS3 the best BD player on the market.


Why does that "Get you". Its a freaking awesome machine. For me, unless you have some really super demanding audio hang-ups there is no reason to buy anything but the PS3 with all its other functionalities. And it gets better with each new software upgrade, so even more to come.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

chris0 said:


> I'm not sure why you keep focusing on how small HDM is when compared to DVD. It's still relatively new, of course it's no where near the size of DVD. No one expects it to be. Mass adoption doesn't happen overnight. Not with vinyl vs. cassette tape, tape vs. cd, vhs vs. dvd, b&w TV vs. color TV, etc.
> 
> But HDM is growing, and now that there's one dominant format, a fact that has made it into national news broadcasts, it should continue to grow and will most likely grow at faster rate now. Sales of HD sets are taking off, and even though adoption of actual HD content from sat, cable and HDM is behind that curve, once people taste HD they'll want more. Blu-ray is going to be a part of that.


Because it is a very small market... and I keep seeing people saying that Blu ray is "dominant". It isn't, by any stretch of the imagination. That's the real bottom line. Sure, there were some small amount of people focussing on the "format war"... but most of the public was happily buying DVDs.

In fact, even since Blu ray "won" there has still not been any signs of a shift to Blu ray over standard DVD. That's the real "war" that needs to be fought... and I've seen nothing from the movie studios that indicates they are yet willing to fight that war.

HD/Blu ray is a small emerging market. After almost 2 years it hasn't much traction. If it doesn't gain traction soon (and by soon I mean within the next couple of years) the technology may be overtaken by something else (and I don't mean downloads).

You point out yourself how HDTV sales are beginning to take off... but those folks are not jumping into HD players yet. Many aren't even signing up for HD from their cable/satellite.

I pointed out in another post how many Dish/DirecTV customers on this very forum complain about the $10-$20 per month fees for HD programming... so it is unlikely the average consumer will be happily paying $20+ per Blu ray movie any time in the near future at a quantity that makes the market viable.

There have just been no signs that Blu ray is going to challenge DVD any time in the near future. Note that this also would be true of HD DVD, had it not lost.... so I'm not Blu ray bashing.


----------



## Mike728

HDMe said:


> You point out yourself how HDTV sales are beginning to take off... but those folks are not jumping into HD players yet.


I think it would be a smart marketing move for Sony to start giving away their old 1.0 Blu-ray players with new HD TV sales. That would get more people familiar with the format and maybe jump-start the transition.


----------



## Jason Nipp

syphix said:


> What?? Microsoft never DID put HD-DVD drives in the XBOX 360...they offered an OPTIONAL HD-DVD add-on drive, which they just discontinued because...um...HD-DVD was already pronounced dead by Toshiba.


IIRC, At CES2006 MS announced that the next gen 360 would have an integrated HD-DVD drive.... So I assume what he is saying is they scrapped the stand-alone and removed the internal from the next revision 360.

I do not know when the next gen 360 was due to be released.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Chris Blount said:


> Here's a little more to chew on. This would have happened not matter what format won.
> 
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9877031-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5


While I do agree that digital HD downloads will eventually take off, don't forget that the original Knapster/MP3 download community was a niche geek market.... and it really did not take off until the iPod finally took off quite some time after it was released.

Not everyone will adopt this right away, not everyone has enough bandwidth to tolerate this. The movies I have downloaded took hours, and then they expired in 24 hours and self deleted.

I want a portable format that I can take anywhere, watch anywhere.... And until a low cost portable HD media device hits the market, I doubt downloads will take off and replace a portable hard copy format. Also we have DRM and movies that expire and self delete to contend with. How can I watch the movie at a friends house, or an airplane if it deleted it self in 24 hours or 7 days?

I just do not see digital media anywhere close to being able to replace a hard copy format..... Yet!


----------



## dhhaines

texaswolf said:


> All i can re-hash is the experience i and others have with E* and the external drive. A lot of people will want the media in hand, but a lot of people will enjoy the ease of starting any of their movies with a flip of the remote. Average joes wont know the quality difference as compared to a HD player. Not to mention ...it's a reat way to "preview" a movie on HD....if it looks good on Sat. HD, you know it will look sweet on a HD player.
> 
> Movies recorded from HD premium channels and PPV's have replaced my DVD collection, and saved me a lot of money on "non HD worthy" movies. WHen i want to watch a movie, just access the external through the 622...simple....a lot of people will like that....however, when i want to enjoy a bad a$$ movie, i kick out the wifey and pop a disc in the HDDVD or BR player and crank it up...
> 
> I guess it's just easier to see it as a possibility, when i already have it.


But what happens to those movies WHEN the harddrive crashes? And can you take those movies with you to a friend or relatives to enjoy?

I also have an external drive which has movies on it. I just don't and never will consider a harddrive unit to be a permenant storage media. Their failure rate is just way too high.

Besides there are always the extras which you won't get on PPV or a premium channel.


----------



## ccr1958

was in wal-mart this morn & noticed they had a few new(to this store)
HD-DVD titles out....the one that caught my eye was a special edition
of transformers....only problem they still want 29.xx for them...


----------



## jwebb1970

HDMe said:


> Because it is a very small market... and I keep seeing people saying that Blu ray is "dominant". It isn't, by any stretch of the imagination. That's the real bottom line. Sure, there were some small amount of people focussing on the "format war"... but most of the public was happily buying DVDs.
> 
> In fact, even since Blu ray "won" there has still not been any signs of a shift to Blu ray over standard DVD. That's the real "war" that needs to be fought... and I've seen nothing from the movie studios that indicates they are yet willing to fight that war.
> 
> HD/Blu ray is a small emerging market. After almost 2 years it hasn't much traction. If it doesn't gain traction soon (and by soon I mean within the next couple of years) the technology may be overtaken by something else (and I don't mean downloads).
> 
> You point out yourself how HDTV sales are beginning to take off... but those folks are not jumping into HD players yet. Many aren't even signing up for HD from their cable/satellite.
> 
> I pointed out in another post how many Dish/DirecTV customers on this very forum complain about the $10-$20 per month fees for HD programming... so it is unlikely the average consumer will be happily paying $20+ per Blu ray movie any time in the near future at a quantity that makes the market viable.
> 
> There have just been no signs that Blu ray is going to challenge DVD any time in the near future. Note that this also would be true of HD DVD, had it not lost.... so I'm not Blu ray bashing.


I bought into HD DVD back in Nov, when the HDA2s got temporarily (at the time, at least) dumped for $99. Thru BestBuy, I also got 7 free movies (5 via rebate + 2 off BB shelves). Although I have been an HDTV owner since 2001, I was fully expecting to wait out "the war". But, when the Tosh sale happened, I just happened to also be inthe market for a new DVD player for my daughter. Her old cheapie had died & we were using a Sony upconverting player in the living room w/ excellent results. 7 HD DVDs & a player for a c-note? My daughter now has the old Sony in her room.

Since Nov, I have amassed a small collection (around 30) HD DVDs & will continue to grab a few more over the next several months. Firesales have just started @ Amazon. Just because this format "lost" means nothing to me. The player still works (am ordering a backup player now that prices on Toshibas have gone way south), the mopvies still work & existing std DVDs look awesome on it. This will keep me out of the Blu market for some time.

Not that I wouldn't go Blu. But it still has to prove to me that it will stick around---and get cheaper!

Honestly, though, I think that either format was at best going to acheive maybe a large niche status---the laserdisc of this generation. The difference in HDM is not that great vs. DVD. Some will cry "Blasphemy!" I know. But the gains over DVD are much smaller & less apparent compared to the gains DVD had over VHS. In that battle, DVD was clearly superior - much better PQ/AQ, random access, easier storage, virtually indestructable (compared to video cassettes) media.....no wonder the mass market jumped in.

From DVD to HDDVD/BluRay, not so much a gain for most I imagine. Still a movie on a shiny disc. Same basic operation/features but with improved clarity in audio/video. But to the avg consumer who wants to watch/own a movie....."do I get the DVD for $15 or a BD with a bit better picture/sound & more special features that I'll watch once (maybe) for twice the price?" I know where most consumers will go.

Do I see a difference in HDM? Of course. Is it such a marked improvement that regular DVD is "unwatchable" now? NO!!!!

As to my own stance toward BluRay now? I'll keep waiting. Show me that the format has some legs & get player & software prices down....then we may get together.


----------



## machavez00

ebaltz said:


> Why does that "Get you". Its a freaking awesome machine. For me, unless you have some really super demanding audio hang-ups there is no reason to buy anything but the PS3 with all its other functionalities. And it gets better with each new software upgrade, so even more to come.


Surprises would have been better. I bought a PS3. Between the Target cards from work and the $40 card with purchase, it was only $100 out of pocket. From my friends at macnn.com


> Eug said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sony will be releasing Blu-ray Profile 1.1 players this summer.
> 
> -----
> 
> _Sony will be introducing two new Blu-ray Disc Players. One the first week of July 2008, Model# BDP-S350, which passes all high bit advanced audio codecs (like the Panasonic DMP-BD30) to an outboard decorder (Pre-Amp or Receiver) and will be *Profile 1.1*. The other player, coming out the first week of August 2008, the BDP-S550, will incorperate all the high bit advanced audio codec decoders in the player and will also be Profile 1.1. Both are HDMI 1.3a, catagory 2 compliant (output). Load times are faster. Both will play CD's, but not SACD.
> 
> The tentative price points will be:
> 
> *Sony BDP-S350 $ 349.99
> Sony BDP-S550 $ 449.99*
> 
> Jim Pullan
> Audio Excellence
> Ocala, FL
> AUDIO EXCELLENCE_
> 
> -----
> 
> However, these players will be Profile 2.0 ready:
> 
> -----
> 
> Sony Unveils 2 BD Players, 21 Bravia LCD TVs - 2/26/2008 6:11:00 AM - TWICE
> 
> _The new Blu-ray Disc players include the *BDP-S350 (retailing this summer for around $400)*, which will ship with the ability to play back Bonus View (picture-in-picture) running commentary tracks and will be *BD Live ready*, meaning a forthcoming optional firmware update will allow the players to connect to the Internet to take advantage of Web-enabled extras currently being produced as bonus content for future Blu-ray Disc releases.
> 
> To carry out the capability, the players will include a built-in Ethernet port for connectivity, and external USB port for local storage. Other features will include 1080/60p and 24p True Cinema resolution output, 7.1-channel Dolby True HD and Dolby Digital Plus surround sound decoding and bit-stream output, as well as dts-HD high resolution audio and Master Audio bit-stream output._
> 
> -----
> 
> Those specs are good enough for me, but I'd like to see much lower street pricing.
Click to expand...


----------



## texaswolf

dhhaines said:


> But what happens to those movies WHEN the harddrive crashes? And can you take those movies with you to a friend or relatives to enjoy?
> 
> I also have an external drive which has movies on it. I just don't and never will consider a harddrive unit to be a permenant storage media. Their failure rate is just way too high.
> 
> Besides there are always the extras which you won't get on PPV or a premium channel.


Oh i agree, i wasn't saying it would replace BR disc at all, just give it a harder time taking over. How many people carry around movies with them? Usually when someone tells me a movie is good i order it and watch it...sure sometimes friends bring over a rented or owned disc too. Hard drives do fail, but if it does I lost no money...except for the drive. I was simply stating that, average non tech folks could find this a more convenient and less expensive option...maybe not.....but considering it is new with E*, and i'm sure D* will follow suit, and probably cable sooner or later....it could pose a slow down to BR's take over...unless prices of players drop a good amount


----------



## Stewart Vernon

jwebb1970 said:


> I bought into HD DVD back in Nov, when the HDA2s got temporarily (at the time, at least) dumped for $99. Thru BestBuy, I also got 7 free movies (5 via rebate + 2 off BB shelves). Although I have been an HDTV owner since 2001, I was fully expecting to wait out "the war". But, when the Tosh sale happened, I just happened to also be inthe market for a new DVD player for my daughter. Her old cheapie had died & we were using a Sony upconverting player in the living room w/ excellent results. 7 HD DVDs & a player for a c-note? My daughter now has the old Sony in her room.
> 
> Since Nov, I have amassed a small collection (around 30) HD DVDs & will continue to grab a few more over the next several months. Firesales have just started @ Amazon. Just because this format "lost" means nothing to me. The player still works (am ordering a backup player now that prices on Toshibas have gone way south), the mopvies still work & existing std DVDs look awesome on it. This will keep me out of the Blu market for some time.
> 
> Not that I wouldn't go Blu. But it still has to prove to me that it will stick around---and get cheaper!


I think we are on the same page. I was going to happily wait out the format "war" myself until it became insane not to buy an HD DVD player at those prices. I got an HD-A3 + 10 "free" movies for about $199 once the HD-A2 sales had run through stock. Hard to beat what I got, and I too have bought more HD DVD movies since then. I'll buy some more too, new releases and imports and "firesales"... and all that will help me go back on the fence to wait and see what happens in the next year or two with Blu ray.


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> Because it is a very small market... and I keep seeing people saying that Blu ray is "dominant".


I think most people understood that "dominant" was used in relation to the format war between HD DVD and BD, nothing larger.



HDMe said:


> HD/Blu ray is a small emerging market. After almost 2 years it hasn't much traction. If it doesn't gain traction soon (and by soon I mean within the next couple of years) the technology may be overtaken by something else (and I don't mean downloads).


You don't state as much, but you seem to be arguing that Blu-ray isn't going to grow past where it is now. That's the impression I get from your posts. I disagree, I think that Blu-ray will see significant gains later this year.



HDMe said:


> I pointed out in another post how many Dish/DirecTV customers on this very forum complain about the $10-$20 per month fees for HD programming... so it is unlikely the average consumer will be happily paying $20+ per Blu ray movie any time in the near future at a quantity that makes the market viable.


I don't think people posting at sites like DBSTalk and AVSForums are generally representative of the larger market, but if we're going to use posts as an example: Since Toshiba's announcement the PS3 Owners thread at AVS has several new people each day posting about their new PS3. They bought it now because they feel it's safe to join into HDM now. I've been in that thread for a long time and this is the most new people I've seen in there since Christmas. I've seen similar postings in the other BD Player threads. People are coming down off the fence.

Probably not because of this though.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/26/goldmunds-eidos-20-bd-blu-ray-player-costs-17k/


----------



## FogCutter

Sony is promising a Profile 2.0 player for $500 in the fall of 2008. There will be a provisional model sooner that will require a firmware upgrade to reach the final profile. I don't have a model number. 

I already have CAT6 run down to the theater room.


----------



## syphix

FogCutter said:


> Sony is promising a Profile 2.0 player for $500 in the fall of 2008. There will be a provisional model sooner that will require a firmware upgrade to reach the final profile. I don't have a model number.


The Sony BDP-S350 and BDP-S550, $400 and $500 (respectively).
http://gizmodo.com/360642/bdp+s350-and-s550-sonys-first-full-20-spec-blu+ray-players

Still too highly priced, Sony...work with us...


----------



## dhhaines

syphix said:


> The Sony BDP-S350 and BDP-S550, $400 and $500 (respectively).
> http://gizmodo.com/360642/bdp+s350-and-s550-sonys-first-full-20-spec-blu+ray-players
> 
> Still too highly priced, Sony...work with us...


 Sony has always been slow to lower their pricing. When other manufacturers decide to discount Blu-Ray players, that's when Sony will come down.

But until the Blu-Ray market for players is more then just the PS3, prices will remain high.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

chris0 said:


> I think most people understood that "dominant" was used in relation to the format war between HD DVD and BD, nothing larger.


Not to whip the deceased equine... but, "dominant" just doesn't apply. When we are talking about 2% of the media market (as compared to DVD sales), I wouldn't call Blu ray a "dominant" winner even over HD DVD. Sure they won, but not in any kind of dominating fashion.

If you look at the money figures thrown around Blu ray didn't whip HD DVD by a whole lot. In terms of quantity of media sold, the percentages sometimes appeared to be a whipping... until you looked at the actual sales. 80:20% sales ratios sound impressive until you realize sometimes that was talking about 80,000 vs 20,000 discs on a given week... which doesn't even add up to the rounding error for standard DVD sales in a given week.

Think about that... the entire HD DVD + Blu ray market is barely as much (about 2%) as the rounding error for DVD sales data... so in statistic terms, the whole HD media market *could* be wholesalely dismissed as a rounding error! 



chris0 said:


> You don't state as much, but you seem to be arguing that Blu-ray isn't going to grow past where it is now. That's the impression I get from your posts. I disagree, I think that Blu-ray will see significant gains later this year.


You've pegged me correctly, and it's not Blu ray anti-bias either.. I felt the same about HD DVD. If HD DVD had come out on top, I wouldn't be that confident about them either.

There are really two problems that keep dragging things down... One is the marketing strategy and lack of consistent HD movie options for the consumer. Lots of stuff priced too high and not a lot of new things coming out every week when compared to DVD options. The other problem is that most of the consumer base is pretty satisfied with their DVDs. People who haven't bought HDTV yet aren't going to buy HD players for obvious reasons. Most of the new adopters of HDTV are just now able to watch all their DVDs at the best quality (when compared to their smaller, non-widescreen TVs)... and that level of improvement is going to keep many of those people on the fence a while longer.

Think about how long movies existed before TV was available... then how long before TV was really popular... then how long before we had VHS... and then DVD... and then HDTV... I didn't even mention color vs black & white. But we are in a situation here where most people with DVD players and DVD collections are just now upgrading to HDTV widescreen and fully enjoying their "old" movies... so while HDTV is a big leap, there is so much enjoyment to be gained just from re-watching DVDs on your new widescreen TV, that it may be a while before all but the early adopters see the need to jump into Blu ray.


----------



## tomcrown1

Or how about the crapy converson to the new HD DISC, if the big cheapo movie companys took the the time to insure that the 1080p Disc were done right, then it would attract the public.


----------



## dhhaines

HDMe said:


> Not to whip the deceased equine... but, "dominant" just doesn't apply. When we are talking about 2% of the media market (as compared to DVD sales), I wouldn't call Blu ray a "dominant" winner even over HD DVD. Sure they won, but not in any kind of dominating fashion.
> 
> If you look at the money figures thrown around Blu ray didn't whip HD DVD by a whole lot. In terms of quantity of media sold, the percentages sometimes appeared to be a whipping... until you looked at the actual sales. 80:20% sales ratios sound impressive until you realize sometimes that was talking about 80,000 vs 20,000 discs on a given week... which doesn't even add up to the rounding error for standard DVD sales in a given week.
> 
> Think about that... the entire HD DVD + Blu ray market is barely as much (about 2%) as the rounding error for DVD sales data... so in statistic terms, the whole HD media market *could* be wholesalely dismissed as a rounding error!
> 
> You've pegged me correctly, and it's not Blu ray anti-bias either.. I felt the same about HD DVD. If HD DVD had come out on top, I wouldn't be that confident about them either.
> 
> There are really two problems that keep dragging things down... One is the marketing strategy and lack of consistent HD movie options for the consumer. Lots of stuff priced too high and not a lot of new things coming out every week when compared to DVD options. The other problem is that most of the consumer base is pretty satisfied with their DVDs. People who haven't bought HDTV yet aren't going to buy HD players for obvious reasons. Most of the new adopters of HDTV are just now able to watch all their DVDs at the best quality (when compared to their smaller, non-widescreen TVs)... and that level of improvement is going to keep many of those people on the fence a while longer.
> 
> Think about how long movies existed before TV was available... then how long before TV was really popular... then how long before we had VHS... and then DVD... and then HDTV... I didn't even mention color vs black & white. But we are in a situation here where most people with DVD players and DVD collections are just now upgrading to HDTV widescreen and fully enjoying their "old" movies... so while HDTV is a big leap, there is so much enjoyment to be gained just from re-watching DVDs on your new widescreen TV, that it may be a while before all but the early adopters see the need to jump into Blu ray.


 Well said . Nothing there that I don't agree with.:biggthump


----------



## Stewart Vernon

dhhaines said:


> Well said . Nothing there that I don't agree with.:biggthump


Thanks! 

I thought of something else... I know some folks who have recently gotten laser surgery to improve their eyesight. They can now read books that were tough to enjoy before. So they have a backlog of already-purchased books to read before they dive into new bestsellers.

This is kind of where I'm going with the recent-adopters-of-HDTV theory. They may even know how good HD looks compared to DVD... but the new-enjoyment of their old DVDs on a larger/wider screen is enough for the moment.


----------



## Cholly

ebaltz said:


> Why does that "Get you". Its a freaking awesome machine. For me, unless you have some really super demanding audio hang-ups there is no reason to buy anything but the PS3 with all its other functionalities. And it gets better with each new software upgrade, so even more to come.


A few reasons not to buy the PS3 --
It runs hot. That's why they sell intercoolers for it.
Form factor is not Home theater friendly. This is a very big reason for some folks, who would rather have a standalone player.
It's first and foremost a game console. If I were a bachelor living alone, that would be okay, but when you live in a home with several kids, you don't really want them playing videogames on your big screen Home Theater TV.
Although it is price competitive with standalone players that are NOT as good, to most of us it is still too expensive. Certainly, the standalone players are more overpriced than the PS3. It used to be that Sony was losing money on the PS3, but the current model is much less expensive for them to make, and they are now making a decent profit on them.
Now, to you, these reasons may seem silly at best. In my household, though, they are reason enough to look elsewhere. Obviously, many others hereabouts are in agreement. For you to bash them for wanting something more affordable is insensitive, to say the least.


----------



## Drew2k

Cholly said:


> A few reasons not to buy the PS3 --
> It runs hot. That's why they sell intercoolers for it.
> Form factor is not Home theater friendly. This is a very big reason for some folks, who would rather have a standalone player.
> It's first and foremost a game console. If I were a bachelor living alone, that would be okay, but when you live in a home with several kids, you don't really want them playing videogames on your big screen Home Theater TV.
> Although it is price competitive with standalone players that are NOT as good, to most of us it is still too expensive. Certainly, the standalone players are more overpriced than the PS3. It used to be that Sony was losing money on the PS3, but the current model is much less expensive for them to make, and they are now making a decent profit on them.
> Now, to you, these reasons may seem silly at best. In my household, though, they are reason enough to look elsewhere. Obviously, many others hereabouts are in agreement. For you to bash them for wanting something more affordable is insensitive, to say the least.


Excellent reasons not to buy the PS3. You forgot one: comes with a Bluetooth remote. If you have a universal remote you want to use with the PS3, you first need to shell out more bucks for an IR converter for the PS3.


----------



## RAD

Cholly said:


> A few reasons not to buy the PS3 --
> 
> #1 - It runs hot. That's why they sell intercoolers for it.
> 
> #2 - Form factor is not Home theater friendly. This is a very big reason for some folks, who would rather have a standalone player.
> 
> #3 - It's first and foremost a game console. If I were a bachelor living alone, that would be okay, but when you live in a home with several kids, you don't really want them playing videogames on your big screen Home Theater TV.
> 
> #4 - Although it is price competitive with standalone players that are NOT as good, to most of us it is still too expensive. Certainly, the standalone players are more overpriced than the PS3. It used to be that Sony was losing money on the PS3, but the current model is much less expensive for them to make, and they are now making a decent profit on them.
> 
> Now, to you, these reasons may seem silly at best. In my household, though, they are reason enough to look elsewhere. Obviously, many others hereabouts are in agreement. For you to bash them for wanting something more affordable is insensitive, to say the least.


My responses to your points:

#1 - Depends on the model you have and how much ventilation you give it. Audio receivers also tend to run hot so is that a reason not to get them?

#2 - So what's the problem, you put it on a shelf and it sits there. What's wrong with the form factor that make it a reason for not getting one?

#3 - So what's wrong with it being a game machine #1 but also being a very good BD/DVD player along with a media server. And is there any problem with just telling the kids that they are not to play games on it? I thought that's one of the rights that parents have, to set limits on the kids?

#4 - I guess it all depends on your priorities and what your spending threshold is. If you look at a $399 price compared to a $29 DVD play then yes it looks very expensive. But how does that price compare to prices of Beta, VHS, DVD players at a comperable point in their life cycle? Go back to 2000 for example and see what you would get for $399 in a DVD player, not even close to the capabilities of the PS3. New technology always costs more and given time prices will drop, just look how far BD player prices have come down since 18 months ago.


----------



## Richierich

I can't believe that I will have to wait until June or July to get the DMP-BD50 from Panasonic. 

Will there be anything that will compare with it such as something from Sony that will have Ethernet connectivity and BD LIve???

Inquiring minds need to know.


----------



## elaclair

richierich said:


> I can't believe that I will have to wait until June or July to get the DMP-BD50 from Panasonic.
> 
> Will there be anything that will compare with it such as something from Sony that will have Ethernet connectivity and BD LIve???
> 
> Inquiring minds need to know.


The Panny is supposed to be out in May...we'll see.

There are two new Sony units coming out....one in late spring that comes with profile 1.1 but is upgradable to 2.0 via Ethernet, and one in the fall that comes with 2.0 . The first one is the BDP-S350 and will retail around $400 and the later one is the BDP-S550 with a price point around $500 retail.


----------



## texaswolf

Cholly said:


> A few reasons not to buy the PS3 --
> It runs hot. That's why they sell intercoolers for it.
> Form factor is not Home theater friendly. This is a very big reason for some folks, who would rather have a standalone player.
> It's first and foremost a game console. If I were a bachelor living alone, that would be okay, but when you live in a home with several kids, you don't really want them playing videogames on your big screen Home Theater TV.
> Although it is price competitive with standalone players that are NOT as good, to most of us it is still too expensive. Certainly, the standalone players are more overpriced than the PS3. It used to be that Sony was losing money on the PS3, but the current model is much less expensive for them to make, and they are now making a decent profit on them.
> Now, to you, these reasons may seem silly at best. In my household, though, they are reason enough to look elsewhere. Obviously, many others hereabouts are in agreement. For you to bash them for wanting something more affordable is insensitive, to say the least.


I can understand some of those reasons...my take on them:

it does run hot, but if it is in a good ventilation spot...it's fine. My receiver runs hot too.

Shelve space it takes up no more room than my HDDVD player when its lying down.

The wife and kids play the wii (me too), I get the ps3...a lot of games on PS3 are more "mature" anyway. If they want to watch standard DVD's...the HD A2 gets that job.

The price does suck, but for me, it has given me the Playstation i wanted, plus a BR player, and it has become a "media" center. i have put all my mp3's on it for my system to play, i have downloaded videos, and pictures on it. I was actually surprised on how nicely it does a lot of things


----------



## Richierich

I hope it comes out in May that will be GREAT!!!


----------



## DCSholtis

http://www.reuters.com/article/innovationNews/idUSN2651290220080227

Jeffrey Katzenberg just became my new favorite guy.


----------



## ebaltz

Cholly said:


> A few reasons not to buy the PS3 --
> It runs hot. That's why they sell intercoolers for it.
> Form factor is not Home theater friendly. This is a very big reason for some folks, who would rather have a standalone player.
> It's first and foremost a game console. If I were a bachelor living alone, that would be okay, but when you live in a home with several kids, you don't really want them playing videogames on your big screen Home Theater TV.
> Although it is price competitive with standalone players that are NOT as good, to most of us it is still too expensive. Certainly, the standalone players are more overpriced than the PS3. It used to be that Sony was losing money on the PS3, but the current model is much less expensive for them to make, and they are now making a decent profit on them.
> Now, to you, these reasons may seem silly at best. In my household, though, they are reason enough to look elsewhere. Obviously, many others hereabouts are in agreement. For you to bash them for wanting something more affordable is insensitive, to say the least.


Based on what?

1. Mine is the coolest running of all my componants. Much cooler than my receiver and my Dish 622. These are MUCH cooler than the HotBox360s. So obviously no reason not to buy it. Mine has never crashed in 1+ year of constant usage.
2. Its form factor is actually more adaptable than most since it can be mounted both in the horizontal and the vertical. Can easily be placed on top of another componant, only limitation is that something can't be placed on top of it, which is good, not too smart to stack too many things together. Again no reason not to buy something.
3. You don't have to use the game playing features if you don't want. I bought mine as a blu-ray player and CD/AVCHD player. Just don't buy any games. Problem solved. Yet again not a valid reason.
4. They are not overpriced in anyway. Basically it is a computer/media center, for which you would have to pay close to $2000 for anything similar. So it is under priced for all that it can do. I don't understand people who think they are entitled to $100 HD players, if you spend money to buy HDTVs, receivers, etc...this piece of equipment is as important as those.

A recent survey I saw asked people if they were mad at having bought PS3s when they first came out and now have dropped in price. Of some 400 respondants, 397 said no or didn't care, and most of the comments were, like mine, saying that it is worth every penny and then some. That is pretty high praise. You can't fully understand or appreciate one unless you own it. No one who owns one would regret having bought it.


----------



## ebaltz

RAD said:


> My responses to your points:
> 
> #1 - Depends on the model you have and who much ventilation you give it. Audio receivers also tend to run hot so is that a reason not to get them?
> 
> #2 - So what's the problem, you put it on a shelf and it sits there. What's wrong with the form factor that make it a reason for not getting one?
> 
> #3 - So what's wrong with it being a game machine #1 but also being a very good BD/DVD player along with a media server. And is there any problem with just telling the kids that they are not to play games on it? I thought that's one of the rights that parents have, to set limits on the kids?
> 
> #4 - I guess it all depends on your priorities and what your spending threshold is. If you look at a $399 price compared to a $29 DVD play then yes it looks very expensive. But how does that price compare to prices of Beta, VHS, DVD players at a comperable point in their life cycle? Go back to 2000 for example and see what you would get for $399 in a DVD player, not even close to the capabilities of the PS3. New technology always costs more and given time prices will drop, just look how far BD player prices have come down since 18 months ago.


Exactly. All very well said.


----------



## ebaltz

Drew2k said:


> Excellent reasons not to buy the PS3. You forgot one: comes with a Bluetooth remote. If you have a universal remote you want to use with the PS3, you first need to shell out more bucks for an IR converter for the PS3.


No they are all actually uninformed reasons not to buy one. Instead, universal remotes should include BlueTooth, its by far the superior technology and doesn't bother me in the least. Before long Universal remotes will do Bluetooth and there are already plenty of other options for remotes. Apparently everything should be cheap and dumbed down for some people to accept it. You are missing out. Sucks for you.


----------



## Guest

I just bought a PS3 the other day and I can confirm that it doesn't run hot. It's slightly warm, but no warmer than most of my other components. As to form factor, it's no bigger than a standalone player and it stacks neatly on top of my DVD recorder.


----------



## Guest

Another advantage of the PS3 - you can set up your PC as a media player and use the PS3 to play videos from it. Isn't that a feature HR20 users in this forum have wanted for some time?


----------



## chris0

HDMe said:


> Think about how long movies existed before TV was available... then how long before TV was really popular... then how long before we had VHS... and then DVD... and then HDTV... I didn't even mention color vs black & white.


Didn't I say pretty much the same thing?



HDMe said:


> ... so while HDTV is a big leap, there is so much enjoyment to be gained just from re-watching DVDs on your new widescreen TV, that *it may be a while* before all but the early adopters see the need to jump into Blu ray.


I agree, but while you think that Blu-ray isn't going to get any bigger than what it is now, I think it will see significant growth, probably starting in Q4 of this year.


----------



## chris0

Drew2k said:


> Excellent reasons not to buy the PS3. You forgot one: comes with a Bluetooth remote. If you have a universal remote you want to use with the PS3, you first need to shell out more bucks for an IR converter for the PS3.


If you have other reasons for not getting a PS3 that's fine, but you shouldn't let a $15 IR converter stop you.


----------



## chris0

DCSholtis said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/innovationNews/idUSN2651290220080227
> 
> Jeffrey Katzenberg just became my new favorite guy.


Why is he your new favorite guy? The article states that they're locked into a contract with Toshiba, they don't have a choice right not but to remain with HD DVD. FTA..."'We said, we have a release coming up on 'Bee Movie.' What would you like us to do?,' Katzenberg told Reuters in an interview." That sounds to me like he's asking Toshiba for permission to either release on both or to abandon HD DVD altogether.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

chris0 said:


> I agree, but while you think that Blu-ray isn't going to get any bigger than what it is now, I think it will see significant growth, probably starting in Q4 of this year.


I didn't say (or at least didn't mean to say) that Blu ray will not grow. I just don't see substantial growth this year.

Another monkeywrench... I just bought a bunch of $10 HD DVDs from Hollywood Video tonight and will keep hunting + have several import options I have not yet fully explored. I am going to have way more unwatched HD movies in short order that will take me quite a while to catch up in watching... so even less incentive for me to run out and buy a new Blu ray player and start all over again. It just makes too much sense to buy the clearance HD DVDs right now and have a whole bunch more enjoyment per dollar.


----------



## Drew2k

chris0 said:


> If you have other reasons for not getting a PS3 that's fine, but you shouldn't let a $15 IR converter stop you.


I'm not letting "only" the IR converter stop me. Cholly already covered the other reasons, to which I added one more. As I pointed out, they were "excellent" reasons.

Look, there's a "pro" and "con" to everything, and there's just more for me NOT to like about the PS3 than there is to like, so I'm not going to buy one just to get a BD player. As I've said in other threads, I'll wait for a 2.0 BD player and prices to come down, so I'm looking at late 2008 or even 2009. I just hope multiple manufacturers really start putting the pressure on and prices drop sooner than later ...


----------



## ccr1958

does anyone know how to shut down the PS3 using the BD remote....
you can turn the unit on by pressing any key...but i can't find a way
to shut it down other than pressing the I/O button on the front of the unit..
thanks...


----------



## AlbertZeroK

ccr1958 said:


> does anyone know how to shut down the PS3 using the BD remote....
> you can turn the unit on by pressing any key...but i can't find a way
> to shut it down other than pressing the I/O button on the front of the unit..
> thanks...


Press and hold the PS button in the lower center of the remote and hit enter.


----------



## ccr1958

AlbertZeroK said:


> Press and hold the PS button in the lower center of the remote and hit enter.


that works!!! thank you very much


----------



## bobukcat

BLWedge09 said:


> I see it as a possibility for some as well. It won't be for everyone though. Basically, it's the same as the cd/music download situation. Some people still want a medium that they can physically touch. Others are content to download a file and put it on their portable player. Admittedly, with music you also have the availability of single tracks working for the download side of the argument, but you get my overall point....


The part that most people overlook with the CD/MP3 debate is that I will still chose CD because of QUALITY! The move toward downloadable music worries me as it's a step backwards in terms of the quality. VOD, PPV, etc all offer lesser quality (some more extreme than others) than the HDM option, so I'll continue to lean that way as long as it's true.


----------



## bobukcat

DCSholtis said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/innovationNews/idUSN2651290220080227
> 
> Jeffrey Katzenberg just became my new favorite guy.


:lol: He says they are "Waiting for a cue from Toshiba" - did Toshiba's announcment that they were killing support of the format not clue him in??? :lol:

Sounds to me like they don't have any real urgent interest in releasing HD versions of anything soon and want to make sure they don't get in any kind of legal trouble (CYA) if they do jump to BD. That or he lost a bet with his buddies at the bar last night and had to put this statement out there! :goodjob:


----------



## ebaltz

bobukcat said:


> The part that most people overlook with the CD/MP3 debate is that I will still chose CD because of QUALITY! The move toward downloadable music worries me as it's a step backwards in terms of the quality. VOD, PPV, etc all offer lesser quality (some more extreme than others) than the HDM option, so I'll continue to lean that way as long as it's true.


ITs true. The unfortunate part of all the tech stuff is that a lot of people can't even tell the difference between a TBS stretch-o-vision movie in "HD" and true HD. That doesn't bode well for quality winning out, but I sure hope that it does.


----------



## ebaltz

rcoleman111 said:


> Another advantage of the PS3 - you can set up your PC as a media player and use the PS3 to play videos from it. Isn't that a feature HR20 users in this forum have wanted for some time?


Yeah for sure. That is a huge advantage. In fact you would have to spend like $200 for a machine that just does that alone. So if you get a media player $200, then a BD player, $400, then a gaming machine toy like the Wii $150, and then a WebTV like machine $200, and toss in a CD/DVD player etc...and a machine that can also run Linux etc...the value of the PS3 becomes quite apparent as being well worth the feature set.


----------



## texaswolf

rcoleman111 said:


> Another advantage of the PS3 - you can set up your PC as a media player and use the PS3 to play videos from it. Isn't that a feature HR20 users in this forum have wanted for some time?


yeah that was a nice surprise

I can think of 1 major reason for someone to not buy a PS3:

It's not for them

and 1 major reason to buy one:

Your a media junky who wants an all in one:grin:


----------



## Cholly

RAD said:


> My responses to your points:
> 
> #1 - Depends on the model you have and how much ventilation you give it. Audio receivers also tend to run hot so is that a reason not to get them?
> 
> #2 - So what's the problem, you put it on a shelf and it sits there. What's wrong with the form factor that make it a reason for not getting one?
> 
> #3 - So what's wrong with it being a game machine #1 but also being a very good BD/DVD player along with a media server. And is there any problem with just telling the kids that they are not to play games on it? I thought that's one of the rights that parents have, to set limits on the kids?
> 
> #4 - I guess it all depends on your priorities and what your spending threshold is. If you look at a $399 price compared to a $29 DVD play then yes it looks very expensive. But how does that price compare to prices of Beta, VHS, DVD players at a comperable point in their life cycle? Go back to 2000 for example and see what you would get for $399 in a DVD player, not even close to the capabilities of the PS3. New technology always costs more and given time prices will drop, just look how far BD player prices have come down since 18 months ago.


1, From all I've heard, overheating is still a known problem with the PS3. Whether that's true with the 40 gig model, I'll confess ignorance. As to audio receivers running hot -- I've never experienced an overheating problem with any of my Yamaha or Onkyo receivers. And we're not talking about the Xbox 360 here, so comments about it running hot are irrelevant.
2. Form factor can indeed be a problem. The fact that the PS3 wants to be mounted vertically can rule out installation in many situations. Edit: I had been given to understand that horizontal mounting was frowned upon.
3. Really? Tell the kids not to play with a game console? That's like putting ice cream and cake in front of them and saying they can't have any. "Parental rights" have nothing to do with it. As to the other computer-like features, fine, but I haven't heard about anyone discarding their home computer in favor of a PS3  
4. The PS3 is NOT new technology. It has been on the market for close to three years. And comparing pricing of the PS3 to Beta, VHS, CD or DVD players when first introduced just doesn't play. At the $399 level, it's out of the range of most families. Most people are not early adopters or audio/video purists. For that very reason, you don't see people running out to buy the high end Sony Blu-ray players, Macintosh A/V equipment, Martin Logan speakers, BMW's, etc. When the average person can buy an upconverting DVD player for under $50 and connect it via HDMI to his/her new Sanyo, Magnavox, Vizio or Olevia TV and see near HD quality, he's not going to buy Blu-ray players or disks.

As a final note: I'm not anti-Sony. I currently own two Sony TV's and a Sony camcorder.


----------



## RAD

ebaltz said:


> Yeah for sure. That is a huge advantage. In fact you would have to spend like $200 for a machine that just does that alone. So if you get a media player $200, then a BD player, $400, then a gaming machine toy like the Wii $150, and then a WebTV like machine $200, and toss in a CD/DVD player etc...and a machine that can also run Linux etc...the value of the PS3 becomes quite apparent as being well worth the feature set.


Unless you happed to have a DirecTV HR20/HR21 HD DVR, then you have media center functionality that comes with the box for free


----------



## RAD

Cholly said:


> 1, From all I've heard, overheating is still a known problem with the PS3. Whether that's true with the 40 gig model, I'll confess ignorance. As to audio receivers running hot -- I've never experienced an overheating problem with any of my Yamaha or Onkyo receivers. And we're not talking about the Xbox 360 here, so comments about it running hot are irrelevant.
> 2. Form factor can indeed be a problem. The fact that the PS3 wants to be mounted vertically can rule out installation in many situations. Edit: I had been given to understand that horizontal mounting was frowned upon.
> 3. Really? Tell the kids not to play with a game console? That's like putting ice cream and cake in front of them and saying they can't have any. "Parental rights" have nothing to do with it. As to the other computer-like features, fine, but I haven't heard about anyone discarding their home computer in favor of a PS3
> 4. The PS3 is NOT new technology. It has been on the market for close to three years. And comparing pricing of the PS3 to Beta, VHS, CD or DVD players when first introduced just doesn't play. At the $399 level, it's out of the range of most families. Most people are not early adopters or audio/video purists. For that very reason, you don't see people running out to buy the high end Sony Blu-ray players, Macintosh A/V equipment, Martin Logan speakers, BMW's, etc. When the average person can buy an upconverting DVD player for under $50 and connect it via HDMI to his/her new Sanyo, Magnavox, Vizio or Olevia TV and see near HD quality, he's not going to buy Blu-ray players or disks.
> 
> As a final note: I'm not anti-Sony. I currently own two Sony TV's and a Sony camcorder.


OK, let's try this again:

#1 - Your remarks went from running hot to over heating. Got two PS/3's, a 60GB and 80GB and while they run hit they've never overheated. As for receivers, I have an Onkyo TX-NR901 and after it's been on playing music for a while it's hotter then either PS/3

#2 - Never heard that vertical is recommended and never say that mentioned in the manual for the units.

#3 - Guess your way of raising your kids differed from the way we did ours. And I never said to get rid of any PC but getting a PS/3, just that the PS/3 has a nice media center function that allows you to view pictures/videos or listen to music from a network attached PC or from media copied to it's harddrive.

#4 - OK, how long has the PS/3 been out, from what I've seen it first hit the market 11/2006, just a tad over two years ago. What was the price for the unit then vs. what you can get one for now? I purchased a VHS deck a couple years after they came out, back when they had only 2 speeds and paid $1,000 for it. A few years later I purchased a VHS-HiFi deck and that was around $800. Sorry I didn't keep track of the PS/3 pricing history all I know is that it got to a price point where I jumped in and purchased one. As for being out of reach for most families could be but a few million folks appear to be able to afford it. And what's wrong with comparing the PS/3 to DVD at this stage in the product cycle? How much were DVD players 27 months after introduction? I know I paid $800 for a 2nd gen Sony DVD player and a year or so later $500 for a Toshiba progressive DVD player, which was farther along in the DVD product cycle then the PS/3 is now. IMHO, at this point in the product cycle it's not doing that bad, where was color TV 2 years after introduction or HDTV 2 years after it's release?


----------



## Jason Nipp

Cholly said:


> A few reasons not to buy the PS3 --
> It runs hot. That's why they sell intercoolers for it.
> Form factor is not Home theater friendly. This is a very big reason for some folks, who would rather have a standalone player.
> It's first and foremost a game console. If I were a bachelor living alone, that would be okay, but when you live in a home with several kids, you don't really want them playing videogames on your big screen Home Theater TV.
> Although it is price competitive with standalone players that are NOT as good, to most of us it is still too expensive. Certainly, the standalone players are more overpriced than the PS3. It used to be that Sony was losing money on the PS3, but the current model is much less expensive for them to make, and they are now making a decent profit on them.
> Now, to you, these reasons may seem silly at best. In my household, though, they are reason enough to look elsewhere. Obviously, many others hereabouts are in agreement. For you to bash them for wanting something more affordable is insensitive, to say the least.


1. Nikko sells inter-coolers for the XBOX360 as well. Nikko sells all kinds of gadgets... you know they profit from peoples paranoia. The PS3 does get hot, but no hotter than my PC's, which is the closest thing you could compare it to. I wouldn't recommend putting a PS3 in a fully enclosed cabinet, but I did have mine in an entertainment center with no issues.

2. Form factor, not a show stopper, I keep mine laying horizontal and it fits just fine.

3. I do not feel it is overpriced.

4. The Blue tooth remote actually works very well. But adding an IR remote is much more in line to Universal remote users.

Charlie, why not just say you do not like PS3 and move on, why try to convince others that it is a wrong decision? The PS3 will continue to be cheaper for some time forward just due to sheer sales volume. You can afford to take hits on margin if you make it up in volume....


----------



## Drew2k

Jason Nipp said:


> Charlie, why not just say you do not like PS3 and move on, why try to convince others that it is a wrong decision? The PS3 will continue to be cheaper for some time forward just due to sheer sales volume. You can afford to take hits on margin if you make it up in volume....


I can't speak for Charlie, but I have already said I do not like the PS3. I think it's funny that there are people on here trying to convince others that NOT buying the PS3 is a wrong decision. Seems to me this is an equal opportunity issue ....


----------



## texaswolf

> 2. Form factor can indeed be a problem. The fact that the PS3 wants to be mounted vertically can rule out installation in many situations. Edit: I had been given to understand that horizontal mounting was frowned upon.


Mine is horizontal, and does fine....if it was frowned upon, they would have recommended in the manual that you leave it vertical. but it says whichever way is fine. If you look at it the inputs for everything are actually designed for a horizontal "look"


----------



## texaswolf

Drew2k said:


> I can't speak for Charlie, but I have already said I do not like the PS3. I thin it's funny that there are people on here trying to convince others that NOT buying the PS3 is a wrong decision. Seems to me this is an equal opportunity issue ....


Fair is fair bro.....there are people posting reasons why you should, and why you shouldn't....like i said earlier....if it's not for them...don't, if you want all the things it does...do.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Drew2k said:


> I can't speak for Charlie, but I have already said I do not like the PS3. I thin it's funny that there are people on here trying to convince others that NOT buying the PS3 is a wrong decision. Seems to me this is an equal opportunity issue ....


I have both a standalone BDP and 2 PS3's. I am not saying that the PS3 is the right solution for everybody, just that it is a viable solution...especially for those that believe the world will end when profile 2.0 is released.

I personally prefer the standalone route myself, but the PS3 does have extras that can make it a better value. But value is in what the users wants... And damn it if Charlie wants the value of a standalone that is the better choice for him. But some people may find more value in the PS3.... Mileage varies and no one in here can tell anyone else what the best fit for anyone else is because we all have different tastes.


----------



## Drew2k

When the 2.0 BD players are out and there are a lot of manufacturers making them and the prices drop, I'll surely be looking for a BD player, but until then ... I'll use my HR20 and HR21 for music, video, and photos served from my ViiV PC, enjoy the HD channels I have on DIRECTV, enjoy the HD DVD movies I have, and not worry so much about being left behind. I've got plenty to entertain me.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I would not buy a PS3 for the simple reason that I just don't have enough time to play games. You all might have noticed, I have a hobby already...


----------



## texaswolf

Drew2k said:


> When the 2.0 BD players are out and there are a lot of manufacturers making them and the prices drop, I'll surely be looking for a BD player, but until then ... I'll use my HR20 and HR21 for music, video, and photos served from my ViiV PC, *enjoy the HD channels I have on DIRECTV*, enjoy the HD DVD movies I have, and not worry so much about being left behind. I've got plenty to entertain me.


had to rub that in...didn't ya:nono: .........lol


----------



## bobukcat

Stuart Sweet said:


> I would not buy a PS3 for the simple reason that I just don't have enough time to play games. You all might have noticed, I have a hobby already...


Fair 'nuff but if you consider it's the only available BD player with an Ethernet port and the best chance of being forward compatible for $399 would you buy it as a BD player only??


----------



## chris0

Stuart Sweet said:


> I would not buy a PS3 for the simple reason that I just don't have enough time to play games. You all might have noticed, I have a hobby already...


You don't _have_ to play games one it, some people never do. But like Cholly said, it is like a nice, tasty peice of cake sitting there, just begging to be eaten.


----------



## DCSholtis

Drew2k said:


> When the 2.0 BD players are out and there are a lot of manufacturers making them and the prices drop, I'll surely be looking for a BD player, but until then ... I'll use my HR20 and HR21 for music, video, and photos served from my ViiV PC, enjoy the HD channels I have on DIRECTV, enjoy the HD DVD movies I have, and not worry so much about being left behind. I've got plenty to entertain me.


Supposedly the LG BH200 Combo Player can be made 2.0 compatible by a software upgrade. It's in the manual on page 7. I may go this route this summer. I agree I have no interest in a PS3 either, the less $ony stuff the better.


----------



## DCSholtis

bobukcat said:


> :lol: He says they are "Waiting for a cue from Toshiba" - did Toshiba's announcment that they were killing support of the format not clue him in??? :lol:
> 
> Sounds to me like they don't have any real urgent interest in releasing HD versions of anything soon and want to make sure they don't get in any kind of legal trouble (CYA) if they do jump to BD. That or he lost a bet with his buddies at the bar last night and had to put this statement out there! :goodjob:


All I know is that I'll be enjoying Dreamworks movies in my favorite format for awhile yet. While the Blu crew keeps waiting.....and waiting......


----------



## Stuart Sweet

$399 is beyond my price point at the moment, but maybe after I'm done watching every single thing on every HD-DVD, the price will have dropped.


----------



## phat78boy

The PS3 can do all the things you say, but besides Blu-ray it does nothing better then the Xbox 360. Many people already have a Xbox 360 and PS3 buys them nothing except an expensive Blu-Ray player. I would personally recommend waiting for a 2.0 Blu-ray player. 

In full disclosure, I have a PS3, but I'm a tech junky so I can't help myself.


----------



## jims

Playing DVD movies on the PS2 was generally a disaster IMHO, but Blueray and DVD on PS3 has been greatly improved. It has the look and feel has a player instead of a game console meant to be a player. I think they did a good job with the remote and ~ $25 for it isn't a bad price.

Also there is one veritcal mount cooling unit for the PS3 and a couple of horizontal solutions. Because of the way the right side of the unit is indented you don't even notice that it is an addon. I do keep the PS3 in an enclosed cabinet with the cooling attachment and no problems.


----------



## ebaltz

phat78boy said:


> The PS3 can do all the things you say, but besides Blu-ray it does nothing better then the Xbox 360. Many people already have a Xbox 360 and PS3 buys them nothing except an expensive Blu-Ray player. I would personally recommend waiting for a 2.0 Blu-ray player.
> 
> In full disclosure, I have a PS3, but I'm a tech junky so I can't help myself.


It's WAY better than the XBOX, and it does crash and burn like 1/3 of all X-BOXs


----------



## texaswolf

phat78boy said:


> The PS3 can do all the things you say, but besides Blu-ray it does nothing better then the Xbox 360. Many people already have a Xbox 360 and PS3 buys them nothing except an expensive Blu-Ray player. I would personally recommend waiting for a 2.0 Blu-ray player.
> 
> In full disclosure, I have a PS3, but I'm a tech junky so I can't help myself.


So are you recommending that to only people with 360's or anybody?

I think if people are looking for a BR player and then some... they should go with the PS3...if they are looking for only a BR player...wait or the 2.0...either way you will be spending the same amount.


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> I think if people are looking for a BR player and then some... they should go with the PS3...if they are looking for only a BR player...wait or the 2.0...either way you will be spending the same amount.


My point exactly, you're likely to pay the same for the standalone BD player and have to wait for it if you want 2.0 functionality. Why not pay the same now and get to watch movies on BD sooner (even if you just rent) plus you pickup the extra functionality you may find a use for later?

Now, if you say that $399 is too much for a BD player that's obviously your choice to make.

Edit: You may also want built-in decoding of DTS-HD MA or some other Codec, that too would be a legitimate reason to wait - just so I'm not mistaken as saying that the PS3 is the end-all be-all of all BD players ever.


----------



## bobukcat

DCSholtis said:


> All I know is that I'll be enjoying Dreamworks movies in my favorite format for awhile yet. While the Blu crew keeps waiting.....and waiting......


Now, I thought we were supposed to stay away from trying to rub salt, etc so I won't point out all the Sony and other movies I can watch on Blu that the Red Tide can't get.....


----------



## Jason Nipp

ebaltz said:


> It's WAY better than the XBOX, and it does crash and burn like 1/3 of all X-BOXs


ebaltz! Play nice....! Stop throwing sand at the other kids in the sandbox.


----------



## phat78boy

ebaltz said:


> It's WAY better than the XBOX, and it does crash and burn like 1/3 of all X-BOXs


I have not had a failure, so I can not speak to that aspect of the box. Almost all reviews of games on both systems say the Xbox looks and plays as good if not better then the PS3 equivalent. Media center extender, if you have a media center machine, is far and above anything the the PS3 can do. Online game play is simply the best available. Plus, it was out well over a year before the PS3. So for those who have an Xbox and think the PS3 is a better media and gameplay machine, they will be upset.


----------



## phat78boy

texaswolf said:


> So are you recommending that to only people with 360's or anybody?
> 
> I think if people are looking for a BR player and then some... they should go with the PS3...if they are looking for only a BR player...wait or the 2.0...either way you will be spending the same amount.


If they already have a Xbox 360, I would say wait for a 2.0 Blu-ray machine. I don't think the capabilities of the PS3 are any better for gaming and media playback then on the Xbox 360. In fact I think they are worse, but if you add in the fact the PS3 plays Blu-ray, it does help it.

For those that don't have a next-gen gaming system and want a Blu-ray player, the PS3 is a good overall option.


----------



## Castlebill

Just got a PS3 for a BluRay player - only have two discs so far. Can't use the menu button during previews or during the movie - get "this action not available", which sucks. Is this a PS3 limitation or the same on other BR players.?


----------



## ebaltz

Castlebill said:


> Just got a PS3 for a BluRay player - only have two discs so far. Can't use the menu button during previews or during the movie - get "this action not available", which sucks. Is this a PS3 limitation or the same on other BR players.?


Its part of the disc, not related to player. They try to force you to watch previews. There are ways around it.


----------



## texaswolf

bobukcat said:


> Now, I thought we were supposed to stay away from trying to rub salt, etc so I won't point out all the Sony and other movies I can watch on Blu that the Red Tide can't get.....


I'll be enjoying them both .....sorry...i know....salt....wounds 


> If they already have a Xbox 360, I would say wait for a 2.0 Blu-ray machine. I don't think the capabilities of the PS3 are any better for gaming and media playback then on the Xbox 360. In fact I think they are worse, but if you add in the fact the PS3 plays Blu-ray, it does help it.
> 
> For those that don't have a next-gen gaming system and want a Blu-ray player, the PS3 is a good overall option.


Yeah I have played the 360, and have friends that own it play my ps3...we all have agreed that minus the BR player, they are vary comparable...the only thing they have mentioned negative is that the 360 doesn't play back all their Xbox games. I have always owned Playstation...for no other reason besides, the games i played on it...not loyalist reasons...and i never owned the xbox, so i wasn't interested in the 360. I had friends trying to convert me over with Halo 2, but i preferred the Socom series instead.....peas and carrots i guess.:grin:


----------



## Castlebill

Thought that might be the case, so I tried an Sd DVD on the PS3 and my HDDVD - could use menu any time on the HDDVD and not the PS3 - during the movie doesn't apply to making me watch previews.


----------



## Cholly

Jason Nipp said:


> Charlie, why not just say you do not like PS3 and move on, why try to convince others that it is a wrong decision? The PS3 will continue to be cheaper for some time forward just due to sheer sales volume. You can afford to take hits on margin if you make it up in volume....


Jason and others: I don't recall saying that I don't like the PS3. I'm not an avid gamer though, so it doesn't hold a great deal of appeal for me. Likewise, the XBox 360. 
As to my posting of four reasons for not buying a PS3, they were all based upon posts I had read previously or actual experience from PS3 owners and not from personal experience. The replies to my post corrected some misconceptions that I had. 
Regarding price: For me at this time in my life, $400 is too much to pay for a Blu-ray player (and by default, a PS3). Yes, I do own two HD DVD players, each of which cost me about $225 -- but then, I got 5 free movies with one and 7 with the other, effectively reducing the cost of each to well below $100. Of course, Toshiba was taking a loss on those players at the time I bought them, just as Sony was taking a loss of up to $300 on the PS3 (before the new model sans Emotion Engine and with the newest blue laser diode came along). Because of the higher degree of sophistication and capabilities of the PS3, I do find it difficult to understand the continuation of higher prices of standalone players.

As to the multimedia capabilities, I already have that capacity in my PC, so for me that's a nonissue.

While I do enjoy lively debate, I find it unnecessary to praise one system over the other. 
I think it was unfortunate that Blu-ray Disk players got rushed into production with only the profile 1.0 spec having been finalized, with the media and a lot of early adopters criticizing them as being buggy. There has been a lot of discussion about profiles 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0. However, it seems strange that the BDA has decided to rename profiles 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 to "Grace Period, Bonus View and BD-Live".


----------



## texaswolf

> Originally Posted by Castlebill View Post
> Just got a PS3 for a BluRay player - only have two discs so far. Can't use the menu button during previews or during the movie - get "this action not available", which sucks. Is this a PS3 limitation or the same on other BR players.?





ebaltz said:


> Its part of the disc, not related to player. They try to force you to watch previews. There are ways around it.


yeah, it will do it in any DVD/HD player you put it in...i hate those disc!


----------



## bobukcat

texaswolf said:


> yeah, it will do it in any DVD/HD player you put it in...i hate those disc!


Amen, I just recieved my five free the other day (along with 5 others I ordered in BOGO or other sales - talk about a stuffed mailbox!  ) and one was the first Pirates movie - I swear there must be 10 previews on there and the best you can do is skip through them with the chapter forward button - ANNOYING!


----------



## chris0

phat78boy said:


> I have not had a failure, so I can not speak to that aspect of the box. Almost all reviews of games on both systems say the Xbox looks and plays as good if not better then the PS3 equivalent. Media center extender, if you have a media center machine, is far and above anything the the PS3 can do. Online game play is simply the best available. Plus, it was out well over a year before the PS3. So for those who have an Xbox and think the PS3 is a better media and gameplay machine, they will be upset.


I'm not trying to start a PS3 v. XBOX360 debate, but I think the issue lies with how different an architecture the Cell processor is from the XBOX 360, XBOX, and PS2. Most dual platform games are designed on the 360 then ported over to the PS3, often poorly so. Sony has been slow in releasing dev kits, and they're often quite pricey. Once a console takes off companies will start to develop their own dev. kits and game engines and this hasn't happened yet with the PS3. The Cell is basically an 8 core processor, but because of how different it is no developer has really taken the time to code just for it and really take advantage of it. Once people do the hard work to figure it out and develop the proper tools to program for it I think we'll see games for the PS3 that are much better than ones on the 360.


----------



## chris0

Castlebill said:


> Just got a PS3 for a BluRay player - only have two discs so far. Can't use the menu button during previews or during the movie - get "this action not available", which sucks. Is this a PS3 limitation or the same on other BR players.?


I'd guess those are Disney movies you're watching. They're kind of famous for stacking previews in front of the movie. All you can do is FF or chapter skip through the previews. But once you're in the movie you should be able to access the PS3's options using the triangle button and the movie's menu. I can't remember which button brings up the movie's menu because I have it programmed into my Harmony's Menu button, but it's there. I think on the Sony BD remote it's the sub-menu botton.

I just did some searching and it should be the square button.


----------



## chris0

Drew2k said:


> I'm not letting "only" the IR converter stop me. Cholly already covered the other reasons, to which I added one more. As I pointed out, they were "excellent" reasons.


I know you have other reasons to not purchase a PS3, I'm just saying that the fact it's bluetooth is pretty much a non-issue since there's a $15 solution for it.


----------



## phat78boy

chris0 said:


> I'm not trying to start a PS3 v. XBOX360 debate, but I think the issue lies with how different an architecture the Cell processor is from the XBOX 360, XBOX, and PS2. Most dual platform games are designed on the 360 then ported over to the PS3, often poorly so. Sony has been slow in releasing dev kits, and they're often quite pricey. Once a console takes off companies will start to develop their own dev. kits and game engines and this hasn't happened yet with the PS3. The Cell is basically an 8 core processor, but because of how different it is no developer has really taken the time to code just for it and really take advantage of it. Once people do the hard work to figure it out and develop the proper tools to program for it I think we'll see games for the PS3 that are much better than ones on the 360.


You are correct. The only thing I can say is that developers, if making a game for more then one system, will develop it on the easier system and then port it to the rest. Take that for what it is.

I also was not trying to start a PS3 vs. Xbox 360 battle, but simply trying to show that those who already have a game system wouldn't see the PS3 as a very good choice.


----------



## syphix

There's an "explanation" posted on TheDigitalBits.com of what Katzenberg is up to with regards to his recent comments:


> Here's our take: He's posturing. Take this as VERY Rumor Mill-worthy, but here's what our industry sources are suggesting is happening behind-the-scenes. Very reliable sources are telling us that DreamWorks is currently authoring and replicating multiple new titles on the Blu-ray format for release in the coming months, including Bee Movie. They're also working on an official announcement of Blu-ray support. So why the new comments from Katzenberg? Well, our sources are hinting that as of the day Toshiba threw in the towel, DreamWorks and Paramount hadn't yet been paid the full $150 million they were promised for abandoning Blu-ray and supporting HD-DVD exclusively (it's generally standard practice in a deal like this for payments to be made in installments over the life of the deal, as various contractual milestones are reached). Both studios are reportedly negotiating with Toshiba as to just how much of the still unpaid amount they'll receive for having remained loyal to the end. That's why neither studio has officially announced new Blu-ray titles yet, and that's why Katzenberg is still talking about DreamWorks' loyalty to Toshiba. Having taken a big PR hit with Blu-ray fans for abandoning the format last year, DreamWorks and Paramount want to at least get as much of the promised payment from Toshiba too. As soon as this issue is sorted out however - and our sources say all parties are close to agreeing on a final amount - you'll see both Paramount and DreamWorks start announcing new Blu-ray titles.


----------



## Drew2k

texaswolf said:


> had to rub that in...didn't ya:nono: .........lol


Sorry, bud ... I keep forgetting this is "neutral" territory! :lol:


----------



## Drew2k

DCSholtis said:


> Supposedly the LG BH200 Combo Player can be made 2.0 compatible by a software upgrade. It's in the manual on page 7. I may go this route this summer. I agree I have no interest in a PS3 either, the less $ony stuff the better.


Thanks - that's something I wasn't aware of, so I'll look into it. I have no interest in the PS3, but it's not because I have a thing against Sony ... I have a really nice Sony HD-Upconvert DVD player, my first DVD player from years ago was a 5-disc SD changer, had a Sony AV receiver, and I have a Sony VCR with commercial skip. Sony makes good products - I'm just not interested in the 1.x players right now with the price they currently are offered for, because there's just not enough competition to drive those prices down. In other words, the prices are at a premium, and I don't want to pay a premium.


----------



## Christopher Gould

SONY Open House 2008
http://news.sel.sony.com/en/assets/OpenHouse2008/index.html

sony 350 550 blu-ray's

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/home_audio_video/blu-ray_disc/release/33695.html


----------



## DCSholtis

Drew2k said:


> Thanks - that's something I wasn't aware of, so I'll look into it. I have no interest in the PS3, but it's not because I have a thing against Sony ... I have a really nice Sony HD-Upconvert DVD player, my first DVD player from years ago was a 5-disc SD changer, had a Sony AV receiver, and I have a Sony VCR with commercial skip. Sony makes good products - I'm just not interested in the 1.x players right now with the price they currently are offered for, because there's just not enough competition to drive those prices down. In other words, the prices are at a premium, and I don't want to pay a premium.


There ya go, Drew. I attached the manual in .pdf form.


----------



## Drew2k

DCSholtis said:


> There ya go, Drew. I attached the manual in .pdf form.


Thanks Dan!


----------



## DCSholtis

No problem Drew anytime. I would say also check out the dedicated thread for combo players at AVS as well to read up on things.


----------



## chris0

phat78boy said:


> You are correct. The only thing I can say is that developers, if making a game for more then one system, will develop it on the easier system and then port it to the rest. Take that for what it is.


Lucas Arts is reportedly going to start with the PS3 and port to other consoles. I personally hope others will follow suit.



phat78boy said:


> I also was not trying to start a PS3 vs. Xbox 360 battle, but simply trying to show that those who already have a game system wouldn't see the PS3 as a very good choice.


Agreed, for now.


----------



## chris0

DCSholtis said:


> All I know is that I'll be enjoying Dreamworks movies in my favorite format for awhile yet. While the Blu crew keeps waiting.....and waiting......


It's Dreamworks Animation titles that were referred to in the article, and how many of those are HD DVD exlusive? 3...4? Will Katzenberg still be your favorite guy when Dreamworks Animation is freed from their contract with Toshiba? It's only a matter of time. Are you so dedicated to HD DVD that you don't want to enjoy all the exclusive BD titles that are out there?

I get that some are reluctant to spend the the money to go blu, but there's no arguing that if you're an HDM fan BD has more titles to offer than HD DVD, and going forward the gap in title selection is only going to grow.

p.s. I just read some posts elsewhere that people are getting A35s for $149, exactly 1/3 of what I paid for mine 5 months ago. If you can find one for that price I'd highly recommend getting one. If you get one that isn't buggy it's a great deal.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

chris0 said:


> I get that some are reluctant to spend the the money to go blu, but there's no arguing that if you're an HDM fan BD has more titles to offer than HD DVD, and going forward the gap in title selection is only going to grow.


Going forward, you'd be correct... but right now? Everywhere I look there are about the same amount of actual titles available in HD DVD format as in Blu ray format. Best Buy only has about 500 Blu ray discs available on their Web site vs 425 or so in HD DVD format. Counting in imports that are not available in one format here but are elsewhere, the gap becomes closer.

So I agree that once we get past June there should start being a bigger gap... but right now, you can have about the same amount of movies in either format and it'd take quite a while to watch them all if you did.


----------



## Richierich

I want to buy a cheap Toshiba HD DVD Player to play HD DVD Movies now and also be able to upconvert SD DVD Movies and then when the Panasonic DMP-BD50 BluRay Player comes out I will buy it for BluRay.

If I just want it to upconvert SD DVDs & also play HD DVDs which unit should I buy especially considering I don't have HDMI into my Denon AVR5803 only Optical Digital & Component inputs??? Thanks for any info.


----------



## ccr1958

richierich said:


> I want to buy a cheap Toshiba HD DVD Player to play HD DVD Movies now and also be able to upconvert SD DVD Movies and then when the Panasonic DMP-BD50 BluRay Player comes out I will buy it for BluRay.
> 
> If I just want it to upconvert SD DVDs & also play HD DVDs which unit should I buy especially considering I don't have HDMI into my Denon AVR5803 only Optical Digital & Component inputs??? Thanks for any info.


i would say the A2 without looking it up....
i am pretty sure it is 1080i upconverting via HDMI


----------



## Richierich

I read at Toshiba's website that it upconverts to 1080P so if I have a Samsung 1080P LCD which I feed an HDMI cable to but Optical Digital Audio to the Denon then I would have 1080P upconverted SD DVDs and also be able to view HD DVDs even though the inventory is limited and will not increase in the future.


----------



## ccr1958

not so sure about upconverting SD DVD to 1080p...but will
for sure upconvert 1080i for SD DVD....& yes you will get the
full effect of an HD DVD video....but the optical will limit you
somewhat on audio....but i think optical sounds great for
my environment....also i am thinking the A2 does 1080i for
HD DVD & not 1080p/24 but i may be wrong...lots own them
on here...they will chime in  i have the A20


----------



## DCSholtis

chris0 said:


> It's Dreamworks Animation titles that were referred to in the article, and how many of those are HD DVD exlusive? 3...4? Will Katzenberg still be your favorite guy when Dreamworks Animation is freed from their contract with Toshiba? It's only a matter of time. Are you so dedicated to HD DVD that you don't want to enjoy all the exclusive BD titles that are out there?
> 
> I get that some are reluctant to spend the the money to go blu, but there's no arguing that if you're an HDM fan BD has more titles to offer than HD DVD, and going forward the gap in title selection is only going to grow.
> 
> p.s. I just read some posts elsewhere that people are getting A35s for $149, exactly 1/3 of what I paid for mine 5 months ago. If you can find one for that price I'd highly recommend getting one. If you get one that isn't buggy it's a great deal.


Once again I am format NEUTRAL but lean heavily toward HD DVD as I find that that format is/was the complete format spec wise. While $ony keeps dragging its feet. Hell certain movies to this day STILL have trouble with certain BD players while I never had a single problem with my A3. I'll be dumping both the A3 and that POS Sony BDP player soon for an LG BH200 combo player at least I know that player will be up to spec. As far as "enjoying all the BD exclusives out there" if there is an HD DVD import of such "exclusive" right now I'd rather import the title in red. Most of those import titles have extras never found on the BD copies and some, not all, but some of the HD DVD transfers are even better than the "exclusive" BD copies. Titles such as Crank (Imported from Germany), Terminator 2 (French Import as well as the upcoming German import). I know first hand that Crank and T2 imports blow away their BD counterparts as I've seen them on both formats.


----------



## Cholly

DCSholtis said:


> Once again I am format NEUTRAL but lean heavily toward HD DVD as I find that that format is/was the complete format spec wise. While $ony keeps dragging its feet. Hell certain movies to this day STILL have trouble with certain BD players while I never had a single problem with my A3. I'll be dumping both the A3 and that POS Sony BDP player soon for an LG BH200 combo player at least I know that player will be up to spec. As far as "enjoying all the BD exclusives out there" if there is an HD DVD import of such "exclusive" right now I'd rather import the title in red. Most of those import titles have extras never found on the BD copies.


Dan -- I'd be inclined to buy a standalone Blu-ray player (even the PS3) rather than the LG, strictly from a cost point of view. Your A3 is a fine HD DVD player, and since there won't be a great deal of HD DVD software coming down the pike, a dual format player seems to be unnecessary. Even if you are not a gamer, a PS3 is a good buy at the present (despite what I may have said in any previous posts  ). It supposedly delivers all the bells and whistles of the next gen players that will be coming out around may.


----------



## jwebb1970

ccr1958 said:


> not so sure about upconverting SD DVD to 1080p...but will
> for sure upconvert 1080i for SD DVD....& yes you will get the
> full effect of an HD DVD video....but the optical will limit you
> somewhat on audio....but i think optical sounds great for
> my environment....also i am thinking the A2 does 1080i for
> HD DVD & not 1080p/24 but i may be wrong...lots own them
> on here...they will chime in  i have the A20


No, the HDA2 is 1080i max for ALL video-HD or upconverted, over HDMI. Will also send 1080i max over component for HD DVDs, but only 480p max for SD DVD. If you have a 720p/1080i display, it's perfect. And most 1080p displays will handle 1080i very nicely, unless you have Superman vision or are just anal about specs.

A2 optical out will send 1.5 Mbps DTS 5.1 from all HD DVDs, regardless of chosen audio track. Have noticed on discs w/ Dolby TrueHD that the "lossless" tracks are often lower in volume than the std DolbyDigital+ tracks found on every HD DVD. The 2nd gen players are apparently the only ones to do 1.5Mbps DTS. 3rd gen does 640kbps Dolby Digital+, I believe, over optical for HD discs.

SD DVD audio tracks are sent as they normally would be. Have also found that HD DVD audio is often slightly louder than SD DVD.

Will also say that if you go with a 2nd gen player such as the A2, do go with the current FW (2.8). My A2 had 2.5 OOB. Loaded 2.7 shortly after purchase (via CD-R w/ DL'ed ISO image) and later did 2.8 via Ethernet when it came online.

Since 2.8, I have had ZERO playback issues on HD DVDs (had a couple of occasional "freeze-ups" on a few discs prior) and the occasional HDMI/HDCP "handshake" issues I had w/ it & my TV appear to have been rectified as well.


----------



## texaswolf

richierich said:


> I read at Toshiba's website that it upconverts to 1080P so if I have a Samsung 1080P LCD which I feed an HDMI cable to but Optical Digital Audio to the Denon then I would have 1080P upconverted SD DVDs and also be able to view HD DVDs even though the inventory is limited and will not increase in the future.


I'd go with the A2....since your not running HDMI....don't spend the extra money...and considering you plan to get BR player in the future. The A2 upconverts/plays to/at 1080i not 1080p. It does a great job of it too...so you won't be disappointed. Plus if you end up getting HDMI, it will look better. Also keep in mind that your not going to see a major difference from 1080i to 1080p, unless you are running HDMI, on a bigger tv anyway.


----------



## chris0

DCSholtis said:


> Once again I am format NEUTRAL...


Sorry, I keep forgetting that. You never did answer about your favorite guy Katzenberg, though.



DCSholtis said:


> I'll be dumping both the A3 and that POS Sony BDP player soon for an LG BH200 combo player at least I know that player will be up to spec.


I'd agree with Cholly, get a PS3 and an A35. You could probably get both for less than the LG unit, and probably have better performance from both.


----------



## Tom Robertson

From time to time we've seen speculation that Warner's was paid off to "suddenly" jump to Blu. Rumors of $150M, $400M, even $500M.

Almost everyone seems to indicate Warner's decision started the end game avalanche.

An interesting article from gearlog considers the suddeness of the end game has this quote from Warner about the $400M rumor:


> We spoke with a Warner spokesman on the subject of the rumor, who answered simply, and rather bluntly, "The world wide DVD business is about $42 billion--we have the largest market share--the idea that we would make a decision about a business that is so enormously important to us based on a one time pay out is just ludicrous."


The whole gearlog article: *The Death of HD-DVD and the Art of Backroom Deal Making*

Also interesting is the further discussion we've had about Sony and Toshiba finally coming to terms on the plant sale they had already announced.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## toneman

richierich said:


> I want to buy a cheap Toshiba HD DVD Player to play HD DVD Movies now and also be able to upconvert SD DVD Movies and then when the Panasonic DMP-BD50 BluRay Player comes out I will buy it for BluRay.
> 
> If I just want it to upconvert SD DVDs & also play HD DVDs which unit should I buy especially considering I don't have HDMI into my Denon AVR5803 only Optical Digital & Component inputs??? Thanks for any info.


I'm sure you'll upgrade that 5803 (not that it's not an excellent AVR in its own right) to one that can receive and process high-def audio soundtracks (e.g., Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA) soon enough? 

Like others have said--A2 or A3 is the way to go if you're looking for a cheap HD DVD player. If you're willing to splurge a bit more, IMHO forget about the A30 and A35 models and see if you can get a great deal on a XA2, as it upconverts/upscales SD DVD better than all other HD DVD and most BD players (there are a few BD players that upscale SD DVD just as well as the XA2 does but since you have your eyes set on a Panny BD50, it would be pointless to mention their names).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> I read at Toshiba's website that it upconverts to 1080P so if I have a Samsung 1080P LCD which I feed an HDMI cable to but Optical Digital Audio to the Denon then I would have 1080P upconverted SD DVDs and also be able to view HD DVDs even though the inventory is limited and will not increase in the future.


How can you go wrong getting a Toshiba A3 for $85 at Amazon? But then, you can judge that for yourself, if you catch my drift... 

The output is indeed 1080p if a 1080p display is connected (and I have more than a reasonable reason to believe yours is that  ).

I have read at least 2 dozend pieces the past 2 weeks sharing my view that patience on the Blu Ray side is prudent, as they work through going from the present v1.0 through v1.1 into v2.0 this fall....but then, you knew that already.


----------



## DCSholtis

chris0 said:


> Sorry, I keep forgetting that. You never did answer about your favorite guy Katzenberg, though.
> 
> I'd agree with Cholly, get a PS3 and an A35. You could probably get both for less than the LG unit, and probably have better performance from both.


I'll respect Katz even after the inevitable happens. At the moment he is the only one with balls to live up to his agreements, however. I thought about the PS3 but I'm not interested in gaming at all so it would be a waste, plus I'm not interested in stringing more Cat5 around for another Apple Airport Express. With the LG all I would need is the one ethernet cord and be done with it all. By time I'm ready for this in the summer I'm sure the price point will be lower.


----------



## chris0

DCSholtis said:


> At the moment he is the only one with balls to live up to his agreements, however.


Maybe not...http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6536681&desc=topstory


> The studio pulled the plug on the HD DVD versions of other titles that had been announced for the format, including DreamWorks Animation's Bee Movie, due March 11, and Sweeney Todd, due April 1. Their standard DVD versions will come out as planned.


----------



## DCSholtis

I saw that. Still waiting for a confirm from Katzenburg/Dreamworks Animation.


----------



## syphix

DCSholtis said:


> ....he is the only one with balls to live up to his agreements...


"Balls"?? Try "posturing". According to "very reliable sources" (and TheDigitalBits.com), there's still a check to be cut to them (and Paramount) for going exclusive to HD DVD. Once an agreement has been made as to how much is owed (and perhaps that's happened...perhaps we'll never know...), Dreamworks will announce titles for Blu-ray.


----------



## Richierich

Well, I just bought the Toshiba HD-A30 to tide me over until I get the Panasonic DMP-BD50 BluRay Player. For $120 it ain't bad at all. 

I am watching the Bourne Ultimatum and the Sound Is Incredible and the PQ is AWESOME!!! 

It's a good thing that my Sony 9000ES just started getting pixellations and getting stuck around Chapter 13 so I told my wife that getting this is cheaper than getting a 7 year old Sony Progressive Scan (480P) Dvd Player fixed and she agreed!!!


----------



## texaswolf

richierich said:


> Well, I just bought the Toshiba HD-A30 to tide me over until I get the Panasonic DMP-BD50 BluRay Player. For $120 it ain't bad at all.
> 
> I am watching the Bourne Ultimatum and the Sound Is Incredible and the PQ is AWESOME!!!
> 
> It's a good thing that my Sony 9000ES just started getting pixellations and getting stuck around Chapter 13 so I told my wife that getting this is cheaper than getting a 7 year old Sony Progressive Scan (480P) Dvd Player fixed and she agreed!!!


I know this isnt the right thread, but head to Amazon, they are giving away HDDVD titles cheap...you could get a nice collection going for half the price.


----------



## Richierich

Thanks for the TIP, WOLFMAN!!!


----------



## texaswolf

richierich said:


> Thanks for the TIP, WOLFMAN!!!


No prob bro...enjoy!


----------



## DCSholtis

syphix said:


> "Balls"?? Try "posturing". According to "very reliable sources" (and TheDigitalBits.com), there's still a check to be cut to them (and Paramount) for going exclusive to HD DVD. Once an agreement has been made as to how much is owed (and perhaps that's happened...perhaps we'll never know...), Dreamworks will announce titles for Blu-ray.


Glad you separated DigitalBits from reliable sources this time.


----------



## ebaltz

Jason Nipp said:


> ebaltz! Play nice....! Stop throwing sand at the other kids in the sandbox.


Just stating a fact that 33% of all X-Boxes have crashed to the red ring of death. Just a fact. If the X-Box fans can't take it, that isn't my problem. Its a fact.


----------



## ebaltz

DCSholtis said:


> All I know is that I'll be enjoying Dreamworks movies in my favorite format for awhile yet. While the Blu crew keeps waiting.....and waiting......


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...ncels_Majority_of_HD_DVD_Slate_(UPDATED)/1522


----------



## AlbertZeroK

ebaltz said:


> Just stating a fact that 33% of all X-Boxes have crashed to the red ring of death. Just a fact. If the X-Box fans can't take it, that isn't my problem. Its a fact.


*Sources please?* It's definitely not true from what I've seen, of the 20 or so xbox owners I know (original and 360's), none have had issues with their box except us (we had a dead 20g hdd out of the box.) I'll agree the 360 had some issues when it first came out with cooling, but not a 33% death rate.


----------



## syphix

AlbertZeroK said:


> *Sources please?*


A quick Google search (xbox 360 failure rate") will show you many claims of 30%+...some as high as 50%.

Some reports were stating 30-33%:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gaming/xbox-360-failure-rate-30-says-retailers-271487.php
http://www.ripten.com/2007/07/03/failure-rate-xbox-360-high-as-33-sony-ps3-less-than-1/

Others claimed 16.4%:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3166259
http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200808/196/New-study-has-Xbox-360-failure-rate-at-16

The true figure is probably somewhere inbetween...far higher than the 3% of PS3 and Wii (and Microsoft's claims of 5%).

And I've had an XBOX 360 fail. So did the guy who sold it to me from Gamestop. And another friend of mine who had one (and eventually traded it in for a PS3). I don't even know 20 people who have 360's, yet of the people I _do_ know that have one, I'd say about 1/3 have had issues (including the dreaded "ring of death").


----------



## mridan

No more big title releases for HD DVD

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents


----------



## syphix

mridan said:


> No more big title releases for HD DVD
> 
> http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents


...from Paramount & Dreamworks Animation. I believe Warner has said they're still releasing until May 31st.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

syphix said:


> A quick Google search (xbox 360 failure rate") will show you many claims of 30%+...some as high as 50%.
> 
> Some reports were stating 30-33%:
> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gaming/xbox-360-failure-rate-30-says-retailers-271487.php
> http://www.ripten.com/2007/07/03/failure-rate-xbox-360-high-as-33-sony-ps3-less-than-1/
> 
> Others claimed 16.4%:
> http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3166259
> http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200808/196/New-study-has-Xbox-360-failure-rate-at-16
> 
> The true figure is probably somewhere inbetween...far higher than the 3% of PS3 and Wii (and Microsoft's claims of 5%).
> 
> And I've had an XBOX 360 fail. So did the guy who sold it to me from Gamestop. And another friend of mine who had one (and eventually traded it in for a PS3). I don't even know 20 people who have 360's, yet of the people I _do_ know that have one, I'd say about 1/3 have had issues (including the dreaded "ring of death").


 There is no doubt the failure rate on the 360 was high especially with the original units, but I still have a very hard time believing it's 33%. 16% is more believable.


----------



## braven

AlbertZeroK said:


> There is no doubt the failure rate on the 360 was high especially with the original units, but I still have a very hard time believing it's 33%. 16% is more believable.


I have no trouble believing it's 33%. As a matter of fact, I think it's higher. I know of 10 different 360's owned by friends and family. 8 of them have been sent back for repairs (including my own, which cost me $100 to fix). 1 of them was repaired 3 times. The two that have not failed are used very sparingly by adults (maybe an hour a week).

Don't take this as me bashing the 360, I own both consoles and I like them both for different reasons, but I will say this. I refuse to dump another penny in to the 360 for repairs. If it fails again after my 1 yr warranty, I'm selling it on ebay for parts


----------



## Stewart Vernon

The only reason I have a hard time believing 33% failure rate is because if 1 out of 3 of anything failed, it seems like that would be the kiss of death for any product. That's a pretty high rate of failure.


----------



## toneman

hdtvfan0001 said:


> How can you go wrong getting a Toshiba A3 for $85 at Amazon? But then, you can judge that for yourself, if you catch my drift...
> 
> The output is indeed 1080p if a 1080p display is connected (and I have more than a reasonable reason to believe yours is that  ).


When you say "The output is indeed 1080p..."--are you referring to the output from the A3, or are you referring to the resolution of the resulting picture being shown on the 1080p display? I ask because your comment (the part I underlined) is somewhat confusing, if not unintentionally misleading--if the former, then the A3 is not capable of outputting a 1080p signal; if the latter, then aren't you sorta stating the obvious since after all, any video signal being fed into a (fixed-resolution) 1080p display will eventually be upconverted/upscaled to 1080p by the display? To put it another way--if said 1080p display is reporting that the picture/output is 1080p, it ain't because it's detecting a 1080p signal from the video source (e.g., A3)...

Not trying to argue w/ you or anything like that...just looking for some clarification regarding your comment.


----------



## Jason Nipp

richierich said:


> Well, I just bought the Toshiba HD-A30 to tide me over until I get the Panasonic DMP-BD50 BluRay Player. For $120 it ain't bad at all.


Did you look at fleabay first? If you saw what I unloaded my A35 for on fleabay you'd be upset at the $120 you just paid. I predict a lot of upcoming firesales in the midst. Just my opinion.

And yes I did get more than $120, but not much more.


----------



## ebaltz

syphix said:


> A quick Google search (xbox 360 failure rate") will show you many claims of 30%+...some as high as 50%.
> 
> Some reports were stating 30-33%:
> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gaming/xbox-360-failure-rate-30-says-retailers-271487.php
> http://www.ripten.com/2007/07/03/failure-rate-xbox-360-high-as-33-sony-ps3-less-than-1/
> 
> Others claimed 16.4%:
> http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3166259
> http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200808/196/New-study-has-Xbox-360-failure-rate-at-16
> 
> The true figure is probably somewhere inbetween...far higher than the 3% of PS3 and Wii (and Microsoft's claims of 5%).
> 
> And I've had an XBOX 360 fail. So did the guy who sold it to me from Gamestop. And another friend of mine who had one (and eventually traded it in for a PS3). I don't even know 20 people who have 360's, yet of the people I _do_ know that have one, I'd say about 1/3 have had issues (including the dreaded "ring of death").


Yep same with me, of the 6 people I know with X-Boxes, 3 of them have had them die. I have had my PS3 running almost constantly for a year and it hasn't even so much as crashed or locked up or anything, and that is with it getting probably 10 or so software updates.


----------



## Richierich

The A30 had everything I needed at this time and will be used for my bedroom to view Adult Educational Material and for $120 brand new without the box being opened up and 7 HD DVDs, how could I go wrong.

Just curious what does the A35 have that the A30 doesn't??? I think it is HDMITI or something like that which I don't need because I can't feed HDMI to my Denon AVR5803.


----------



## toneman

richierich said:


> Just curious what does the A35 have that the A30 doesn't??? I think it is HDMITI or something like that which I don't need because I can't feed HDMI to my Denon AVR5803.


The A35 can bitstream DTS-HD MA to an AVR that can decode it, and is also capable of bitstreaming HD audio up to 7.1 ch.--the A30's HDMI out can only do 5.1 ch. IIRC, and cannot bitstream DTS-HD MA at all. This is important if you want to be able to listen to DTS-HD MA soundtracks, since no HD DVD or Blu-ray player currently available can internally decode DTS-HD MA...and only a handful of such players can bitstream it to an AVR that can decode it. The PS3 supposedly will be able to either internally decode it or bitstream it via a firmware upgrade...but such a firmware has yet been released. In addition, the A35 offers 5.1-ch. analog outs while the A30 doesn't offer it--read below to see why 5.1-ch. analog outs might be helpful.

Given that your Denon doesn't have HDMI inputs, it would seem that the A35 wouldn't be worth it for you...however--if your Denon can accept and process PCM via 5.1-ch. analog inputs, then the A35 may be a better bet as far as sound is concerned, since it can internally decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD (core only) and then output them via 5.1 PCM analog w/o any further compression or downconversion (i.e., no loss of sound quality). This is key because it is not possible to output decoded TrueHD or DTS-HD via optical or coaxial--both codecs will be downconverted to DD or DTS respectively before being outputted.

Example--if you play a DTS-HD MA soundtrack on an A30, the best it can do is output DTS core (1.5 Mbps--better than regular DD but not close to the bitrates that TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are capable of) on either HDMI or coax/optical; play the same soundtrack on an A35 and it can output full DTS-HD MA on HDMI to an AVR that can decode it. It goes w/o saying that if your AVR can't decode DTS-HD MA, then the resulting output will be the same as that for the A30 mentioned just a moment ago.

Example #2, if your AVR doesn't have HDMI inputs but does have 5.1 analog inputs and can process multichannel PCM--if you play a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack on an A30, it'll output as Dolby Digital via optical/coax since A30 doesn't have 5.1 analog outs and you're forced to use optical/coax due to lack of HDMI on your AVR; the same Dolby TrueHD soundtrack on an A35 will give you either Dolby Digital via optical/coax...OR uncompressed PCM (i.e., no downconversion) via the A35's 5.1 analog outs to the 5.1 analog inputs of your AVR.

I know...TMI...but you asked! 

The following is moot, considering that it appears you already purchased the A30 but--given your comment about wanting to purchase an HD DVD player that'll be used for viewing "Adult Educational Material"...isn't an A30 overkill? I reckon you could have found an A3 for real cheap and still get the 7 free HD DVDs...


----------



## DCSholtis

Maybe by "Adult Educational Material" he meant HD DVD porn flicks.


----------



## machavez00

ebaltz said:


> Yep same with me, of the 6 people I know with X-Boxes, 3 of them have had them die. I have had my PS3 running almost constantly for a year and it hasn't even so much as crashed or locked up or anything, and that is with it getting probably 10 or so software updates.


Can OS X be loaded on the PS3?


----------



## AlbertZeroK

machavez00 said:


> Can OS X be loaded on the PS3?


No, only Linux. This is because it doesn't have a PowerPC or Intel based processor, rather it has it's own unique processor.


----------



## ryank1

If any one is interested Crutchfield.com now has the hd-dvd a3 on sale in scratch and dent for $76.49


----------



## Rich

ryank1 said:


> If any one is interested Crutchfield.com now has the hd-dvd a3 on sale in scratch and dent for $76.49


Costco has them for about that price or lower brandy new.

Rich


----------



## Steve615

rich584 said:


> Costco has them for about that price or lower brandy new.
> 
> Rich


Wal-Mart started selling the Toshiba HD-A3 for $74.98 new a couple of days ago.


----------



## Guest

Why would you buy obsolete equipment at any price?


----------



## Tom Robertson

I would to maintain an existing library if that were less expensive than replacing the library.

Since I stayed out of this war, I'm good. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ccr1958

rcoleman111 said:


> Why would you buy obsolete equipment at any price?


well one reason is if a person does not have a upconverting
to 1080i via HDMI DVD player it does an excellent job of that....
actually on some SD DVD's if i walked into the room & did not know
it was SD i would swear it was HD


----------



## Stewart Vernon

rcoleman111 said:


> Why would you buy obsolete equipment at any price?


This question by itself is not a good one... What if the price were $1? Granted it isn't that low, but at $1 it would be hardly wasting much money...

As for "obsolescence"... in the technology-world, almost everything you buy is obsolete to some extent the moment you buy it. Generally "new" technology has been in development for years, and by the time they release it to us consumers, they are already working on next-gen stuff... so we are almost never on the cutting edge anyway.

Now, I wouldn't pay top dollar for something I believed to be obsolete, but there's always a price at which it is worth buying if you use it for what it is intended.

I see people who say "why buy HD DVD movies when they will no longer be made soon"... and I keep thinking... why go to a movie theater? If you go to a movie theater, you pay to watch once and you walk out of the theater with nothing except the memory of the movie... At least buying a $10-$15 HD DVD I have something. Even IF the player and movie dissolved into a pool of melted nothing tomorrow, I'd still have more than if I spent that same money to go see the movie in the theater.

So it's hard to see that I'm wasting any money.


----------



## Richierich

rcoleman111 said:


> Why would you buy obsolete equipment at any price?


If you had followed this thread then you would know that I already answered that question.

I'll restate my reasons for buying it:

(1) It is an EXCELLENT UPCONVERTER and my other very expensive Progressive Scan DVD Player (480P) just broke and for $120 I have a very good player for my SD Stuff.

(2) It plays HDDVDs and I get 7 FREE DVDs (2 came with it and 5 more when I send in my receipt) and right now I can buy alot of DVDs for less than half price at several places such as Amazon.com. There are concert DVDs and other ones that I will watch many many times. I spent over $1,000 on my other DVD Player which was at the time the best player out there and for $120 I get all of this and more.

(3) I have no intention of buying a BluRay Player until the Panasonic DMP-BD50 Player comes out in June because I want Ethernet connectivity and 2.0 BD-LIVE Firmware!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rcoleman111 said:


> Why would you buy obsolete equipment at any price?


First - it will not be obsolete, as it plays fantastic upconverting SD disks

Second - it plays HD DVDs, which are still very much available.

Third - the costs on these units are now belwo the price of most other decent upconverting SD players

Fourth - some of us have no intention of even thinking about Blu Ray until the v2.0 firmware standard is released (which is more than 6 months away)

Fifth - many of us wouldn't buy Blu Ray at all, or at least not until they are priced more reasonably - both the players and the disks

....and so on....


----------



## AlbertZeroK

richierich said:


> (2) It plays HDDVDs and I get 7 FREE DVDs and right now I can buy alot of DVDs for less than half price at several places such as Amazon.com. There are concert DVDs and other ones that I will watch many many times. I spent over $1,000 on my other DVD Player which was at the time the best player out there and for $120 I get all of this and more.


5 Free HD DVD's ended 2/28/08 unless you photoshop your reciept.

I agree though it's a decent upconverter, especially the A3. But it also takes a full minute to boot up - so it's a trade off. But $75 for an HD-A3 is a steal now.


----------



## Richierich

I bought my HD-A30 on 02/28/08 so my 5 Free Movies still applies as long as the form is mailed in & postmarked by 3/31/08.


----------



## Steve615

richierich said:


> I bought my HD-A30 on 02/28/08 so my 5 Free Movies still applies according to the Best Buy receipt that I have.


We bought our HD-A3 on 2/28/08 too.
The 5 free movies deal still applies,as long as the form is in the mail and postmarked by 3/31/08.
The HD DVD players had to be purchased between 10/1/07 and 2/28/08 to be eligible for the 5 free movies,according to the rules on the mail-in form.


----------



## Steve Mehs

hdtvfan0001 said:


> First - it will not be obsolete, as it plays fantastic upconverting SD disks
> 
> Second - it plays HD DVDs, which are still very much available.
> 
> Third - the costs on these units are now belwo the price of most other decent upconverting SD players
> 
> Fourth - some of us have no intention of even thinking about Blu Ray until the v2.0 firmware standard is released (which is more than 6 months away)
> 
> Fifth - many of us wouldn't buy Blu Ray at all, or at least not until they are priced more reasonably - both the players and the disks
> 
> ....and so on....


Oh I thought you were going to boycott everything related to TWX, Sony and every other company that supports BD. Or is that hissy fit over with?


----------



## texaswolf

Steve Mehs said:


> Oh I thought you were going to boycott everything related to TWX, Sony and every other company that supports BD. Or is that hissy fit over with?


play nice

I'll give you the BEST reason someone would want to buy one....

because they have the choice to!

if someone doesn't want HDDVD...fine....if they don't want BRD...fine...thats what consumer choice is all about.


----------



## Guest

I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't buy an HD DVD player. I was just curious as to the reasons. New titles won't be released in the HD DVD format, so you're pretty much limited to what's already out there. There is some logic in using it as an upconverting DVD player, but you can also do that with a Blu-ray player. I went with the PS3 because it's upgradeable, will upconvert standard DVDs, and all of the new titles will be released in that format. The downside is obvious - it costs $399 - but it does have some other nice features built in, like the ability to stream videos from your PC.


----------



## texaswolf

yeah the ps3. for all it doesn't wouldn't be a bad deal at $399, if they left the backward comp. on it. However the HD-A2 i have does a better job as an up converter. I was somewhat disappointed when i popped a regular DVD in my ps3...then put it in the A2, and it looked much better.

For people waiting for the BRD players to come down in price, it gives them a low priced HD player and movies...fans of the Matrix, Bourne movies, and Transformers could get the movies/collections at half the price, and enjoy them starting now, instead of BRD to release them, and lower prices.

So...i could see why people would buy them, with prices being what they are...especially people who already own BRD...then you can get any movie on HD.


----------



## paja

rcoleman111 said:


> I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't buy an HD DVD player. I was just curious as to the reasons. New titles won't be released in the HD DVD format, so you're pretty much limited to what's already out there. There is some logic in using it as an upconverting DVD player, but you can also do that with a Blu-ray player. I went with the PS3 because it's upgradeable, will upconvert standard DVDs, and all of the new titles will be released in that format. The downside is obvious - it costs $399 - but it does have some other nice features built in, like the ability to stream videos from your PC.


I picked up an XA2 which is the best upconverting dvd player by far. Since I have over 200 standard dvd's(an expect to buy more) , it will work fine in that capacity.I'm also stocking up on fire sale hd dvd's many of will not be released on brd for some time and then only at full prices.


----------



## texaswolf

paja said:


> I picked up an XA2 which is the best upconverting dvd player by far. Since I have over 200 standard dvd's(an expect to buy more) , it will work fine in that capacity.I'm also stocking up on fire sale hd dvd's many of will not be released on brd for some time and then only at full prices.


thats exactly what i mean...you could snagg the Matrix trilogy for $41 and watch it now, or wait for them to release it (or post a release date still), then go buy it for probably $70-$100...same goes for Bourne and other movies.


----------



## Richierich

For $120 I get 7 FREE HDDVD Movies and an EXCELLENT UPCONVERTER until the Panasonic DMP-BD50 comes out in June. How could I go wrong with that???

Hell,I used to spend more than that watching beautiful girls dancing on the tops of tables!!! LOL!!!


----------



## AlbertZeroK

richierich said:


> For $120 I get 7 FREE HDDVD Movies and an EXCELLENT UPCONVERTER until the Panasonic DMP-BD50 comes out in June. How could I go wrong with that???
> 
> Hell,I used to spend more than that watching beautiful girls dancing on the tops of tables!!! LOL!!!


LMAO! Yeah, I remember those days, but now that I'm married, it's $120 for Fondue!


----------



## Guttboy

Well I was one of the folks that got "burned"...LOL...on the "war" and purchased an A20 back in September....paid $300 for it (ouch)! I do LOVE the upconversion and the picture quality of HDDVD but I think now I am going to pursue the PS3 route....one of the things that make the PS3 nice for ME is that it can connect wirelessly to my network and I can use it to play music, pics, etc.....from what I can gather you can also use the internet via the PS3.

Now the games are another thing I like about the PS3 and would enable me to put off building a gaming PC and just go via the console.....will see...have to justify this to the wife!

As far as Blu Ray titles.....something our familiy considered was the availability of HD programming on D*. We purchased Premier back in September and also got a 1 TB ESATA drive. We have not purchased a DVD (in either format) because we have all the movies we want via the subscription HD movies from Show, CMAX, HBO etc....a lot of the programming we dont watch but some of it we do and lemme tell ya....the price is right when compared to purchasing the Blu or HD DVD formats. I will reserve the right to purchase our "must haves" on Blu Ray now but that will be minimal in the future unless it is a MUST HAVE!


----------



## Richierich

AlbertZeroK said:


> LMAO! Yeah, I remember those days, but now that I'm married, it's $120 for Fondue!


Funny, I NEVER had FONDUE dance for me!!! Was she HOT??? LOL!!!
Funny how marriage changes things!!!


----------



## RAD

Guttboy said:


> one of the things that make the PS3 nice for ME is that it can connect wirelessly to my network and I can use it to play music, pics, etc.....from what I can gather you can also use the internet via the PS3.


FYI, if you network connected your HR20-700 you can also use it to play music and view pictures.


----------



## Guttboy

Yup but I dont have the HR's networked...the PS3 seems like an easy thing for this AND I can play games ....don't tell the wife:lol:


----------



## AlbertZeroK

RAD said:


> FYI, if you network connected your HR20-700 you can also use it to play music and view pictures.


Play videos too!


----------



## RAD

Guttboy said:


> Yup but I dont have the HR's networked...the PS3 seems like an easy thing for this AND I can play games ....don't tell the wife:lol:


NP, just didn't know if you knew about it. If the rumors about Multi Room Viewing coming to the HR20/21's is true you might want to go ahead and get them networked anyway so you can make use of that if it becomes available.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Toshiba's CEO Talks about end of *HD-DVD decision* to WSJ:


> TOKYO -- In February, after a long, expensive battle with Blu-ray over the format for next-generation DVD players, Toshiba Corp. Chief Executive Atsutoshi Nishida pulled the plug on the company's HD DVD business. The move surprised analysts. Japanese companies tend to look for acceptable compromises to save corporate pride, and the analysts had expected Toshiba to phase out the format quietly.
> 
> The defeat is a blow to Toshiba, a vast electronics conglomerate that makes semiconductors, appliances and nuclear reactors. The company saw HD DVD as a way to increase its presence in consumer electronics, where it is a relatively small player.


More interesting information at the link above.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jims

An observation I would make is that I have not seen one HD DVD owner or one PS3 owner say they have regretted making the purchase. All of the gripes seem to come from people who don't own a HD DVD player or PS3 and put the other one down.

I have heard people complain about paying too much, but never saying they regret the quality or having their device. 

*** OK - now is where I get flooded with a lot of "what - didn't you see post #xxxx" and that will be well received  ***


----------



## Pinion413

Good article I came across today......

*Why Blu-ray will be the next DVD*


----------



## chris0

Pinion413 said:


> Good article I came across today......
> 
> *Why Blu-ray will be the next DVD*


Interesting read. I'd never thought about this part...


> People love to point out that Americans are happy with DVD and don't appreciate the marginal improvement of Blu-ray. These people give joe six pack too much credit. We're talking about the same people who buy so many upconverting DVD players, that its nearly impossible to buy a DVD player that doesn't upconvert. This is despite the fact that every HDTV sold has an upconverter built in that works as well -- if not better -- than most of the DVD upconverters on the market.


It seems to be a good counter-point to those who keep saying "J6P" is happy enough with the picture they get from DVD.


----------



## chris0

jims said:


> An observation I would make is that I have not seen one HD DVD owner or one PS3 owner say they have regretted making the purchase. All of the gripes seem to come from people who don't own a HD DVD player or PS3 and put the other one down.
> 
> I have heard people complain about paying too much, but never saying they regret the quality or having their device.
> 
> *** OK - now is where I get flooded with a lot of "what - didn't you see post #xxxx" and that will be well received  ***


For the vast majority of those who never had a buggy player on either side I'd agree. Owning an HDM player with a nice HD set equals High Def happiness.


----------



## Richierich

THE problem is that when Joe Six Pack drinks that six pack he can't tell the difference between True HD & Upconverted HD!!! LOL!!!


----------



## syphix

Pinion413 said:


> Good article I came across today......
> 
> *Why Blu-ray will be the next DVD*


Blu-ray WILL be the next "DVD"...but only when the prices come down more and the option of purchasing a new DVD player vs. a Blu-ray/DVD player is only 10's of dollars apart...not 100's. It'll be similar to how upconverting DVD players have "replaced" normal DVD players: when a normal one is $50, and an upconverting player is $75, why purchase the normal one? (And it was the same with progressive scan DVD players, too) DVD player -> progressive scan DVD player -> upscaling DVD player -> Blu-ray player.

One thing that I really like about the demise of HD DVD is the way they're marketing the players now (and really should have been all along): they've changed from calling them "HD DVD players" to calling them "DVD upscaling player with HD DVD player". For most, their first Blu-ray/HD DVD player will be mostly a DVD player, and secondly a next-gen DVD player. It should be marketed as such.


----------



## Cholly

Pinion413 said:


> Good article I came across today......
> 
> *Why Blu-ray will be the next DVD*


Pretty much of the article is true -- however, when he talks about upscaling DVD players, he misses one point, and that is the fact that they upscale ONLY VIA THE HDMI PORT. I haven't had the opportunity to compare upscaled (via TV receiver) component video from a progressive scan DVD player to upscaled HDMI output from an upscaling player, so I can't comment one way or the other. And, yes, Toslink output to any home theater receiver is going to be inferior to TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus via HDMI to a Home theater receiver with TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus decoders. Still, the dts core output from Blu-ray or HD DVD sounds pretty good on a really good HT system.


----------



## Guest

Guttboy said:


> Yup but I dont have the HR's networked...the PS3 seems like an easy thing for this AND I can play games ....don't tell the wife:lol:


Easiest way to network them is to get the Slinglink powerline kit. The second adapter has 4 ports, so you can connect both the DVR and PS3.


----------



## chris0

Cholly said:


> Pretty much of the article is true -- however, when he talks about upscaling DVD players, he misses one point, and that is the fact that they upscale ONLY VIA THE HDMI PORT.


Actually, I believe his point is that a HD flat panel display has a fixed resolution so it's going to upscale everything that gets sent to it, no matter what the output of the source is.



Cholly said:


> And, yes, Toslink output to any home theater receiver is going to be inferior to TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus via HDMI to a Home theater receiver with TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus decoders.Still, the dts core output from Blu-ray or HD DVD sounds pretty good on a really good HT system.


I don't thing he's arguing for or against anything you say there, only saying that the average consumer doesn't care nearly as much about audio as they do video. I'm not sure what point he's trying to make there as far as Blu-ray adoption goes. I'd guess that he's making a counter argument to people who say most people who have older receivers can't enjoy all the audio that BD has to offer, therefore won't buy into it.


----------



## toneman

AlbertZeroK said:


> Play videos too!


However, the HR boxes aren't capable of playing (streamed) native HDV/AVCHD video (like that recorded from HD camcorders) IIRC; the PS3 is capable of playing back *.m2t/*.m2ts files (the video file format that results from capturing HDV/AVCHD video from camcorder to PC using appropriate video capturing software). Note that HD DVD players are also capable of playing .m2t files if they are authored in HD DVD format and burned to either DVD or HD DVD.


----------



## space86

My HDTV was built in 2002 no HDMI, so I am Shopping Around for a new HDTV
that is a good price can anyone point me to a quality HDTV for a good price ?


----------



## AlbertZeroK

space86 said:


> My HDTV was built in 2002 no HDMI, so I am Shopping Around for a new HDTV
> that is a good price can anyone point me to a quality HDTV for a good price ?


This is not really the thread for that discussion, but what you've asked is a loaded question. But the best time to buy a HDTV and the best price is the day after thanks giving, but be prepared to spend the night in front of the store.


----------



## syphix

Is Microsoft doing as it was rumored: building a Blu-ray add-on??

Maybe...


----------



## Tom Robertson

From *Extremetech*:


> Consumers who purchased an HD DVD player at Circuit City will be able to return them to the retailer, which will give them store credit if received within 90 days of purchase, a Circuit City representative confirmed Thursday.


Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Drew2k

Nick beat you to it yesterday, Tom! 

CC Offers HD DVD Player Trade-in


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm trying to figure out why anyone would want to disgard their HD DVD player in exchange for the current (soon to become semi-obsolete themselves) generation of Blu Ray players. Makes no sense.

I have 2 HD DVD players and have no intentions of getting rid of either one of them. I have a solid inventory of HD DVD's, and they also both do an outstanding upconverting job on SD disks.

I have no intentions of even thinking about Blu Ray for at least a year, until the v2.0 firmware is finally out and *stable*. Even then, alot may happen in the interim to deter consideration of any migration to Blu Ray (such as new things Microsoft and Apple are working on for high-speed downloadable HD).

In any case, panic selling makes as much as panic buying IMHO.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

syphix said:


> Is Microsoft doing as it was rumored: building a Blu-ray add-on??
> 
> Maybe...


Negotiating an XBOX add-on some time perhaps late in 2008 in time for the holidays.


----------



## chris0

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm trying to figure out why anyone would want to disgard their HD DVD player in exchange for the current (soon to become semi-obsolete themselves) generation of Blu Ray players. Makes no sense.


It makes sense for someone who bought a player and just rents discs, especially if they want to watch new releases.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> I have no intentions of even thinking about Blu Ray for at least a year, until the v2.0 firmware is finally out and *stable*.


Thankfully for those of us who want to see the format grow and see the library of available movies grow as well, not everyone thinks as you do. The internet connectivity part of HD DVD and the upcoming 2.0 profile isn't all that special. I used it once with a HD DVD and all I got were links to trailers for other movies put out by the studio. Big deal.


----------



## Drew2k

chris0 said:


> It makes sense for someone who bought a player and just rents discs, especially if they want to watch new releases.
> 
> Thankfully for those of us who want to see the format grow and see the library of available movies grow as well, not everyone thinks as you do. The internet connectivity part of HD DVD and the upcoming 2.0 profile isn't all that special. I used it once with a HD DVD and all I got were links to trailers for other movies put out by the studio. Big deal.


I have nothing to add about HD-DVD players at this point, but I did want to say I am quite confused about the contradiction between your avatar (your photo?), your gender-neutral name, and your current title of "Godfather". There's something wrong here and it's confusing me!


----------



## Snoofie

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Negotiating an XBOX add-on some time perhaps late in 2008 in time for the holidays.


I read that they were thinking about issuing a new 360 with an internal Blu Ray too. I think it was in a Wired article. I can't believe that Microsoft would do that, but they are in a bit of a pickle because, for new buyers that want Blu Ray, an add-on would make the 360 higher than the PS3. Unless they price the add-on for $50-$100, which isn't reasonable, an internal might keep the price point about the same between a PS3 and 360. That just seems like a step back for Microsoft and I can't believe they would release an internal Blu Ray unless they really believe that Blu Ray would drive sales.


----------



## Rich

Drew2k said:


> I have nothing to add about HD-DVD players at this point, but I did want to say I am quite confused about the contradiction between your avatar (your photo?), your gender-neutral name, and your current title of "Godfather". There's something wrong here and it's confusing me!


How does the "Godfather" get above the Avatar? Isn't that put on by the forum's administrators? I know some of the members have put their own little statements there, and I have looked all over the "User CP" and can not see how to do it. Mine keeps changing and I'm not doing it.

Rich


----------



## Rich

rich584 said:


> How does the "Godfather" get above the Avatar? Isn't that put on by the forum's administrators? I know some of the members have put their own little statements there, and I have looked all over the "User CP" and can not see how to do it. Mine keeps changing and I'm not doing it.
> 
> Rich


Never mind, I found it. :icon_kiff

Rich


----------



## chris0

Drew2k said:


> I have nothing to add about HD-DVD players at this point, but I did want to say I am quite confused about the contradiction between your avatar (your photo?), your gender-neutral name, and your current title of "Godfather". There's something wrong here and it's confusing me!


Ha ha ha. I never looked at it like that. I'm a guy named Chris, last name starts with an O but the O is usually taken so I use a zero, and Natascha McElhone is one of the most beautiful women on the planet. As for the "Godfather" thing, I guess I got it when I signed up. I don't remember picking it and haven't yet bothered to try and figure out how to change it.

Guess I'll look into it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Your user title is determined by the number of posts you have.


----------



## chris0

Stuart Sweet said:


> Your user title is determined by the number of posts you have.


That explains why I couldn't find a way to change it just now. Thanks.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

chris0 said:


> It makes sense for someone who bought a player and just rents discs, especially if they want to watch new releases.


Which I do today using upconverted SD disks, as do millions of other people.


> Thankfully for those of us who want to see the format grow and see the library of available movies grow as well, not everyone thinks as you do.


But then, of course, less than 3% of people currently think that way enough to buy Blu Ray disks, while 97% still get SD disks. Not exactly a mandate of adoption nor strong support of the BD format either.

The big facade is that there was a "winner" in this format "war". Yes, so far, HD DVD has lost out on potential adoption of their HD disk format. If the Blu Ray format does not gain significant (15-20% or more) adoption, it will follow the same path of HD DVD and fail as well. So far, there has been no significant overall migration to Blu Ray disk either.

The really said part is that if Sony would not have been so greedy at the time and walked away from the table of establishing a single format and standards (when both they and the HD DVD and SD disk folks were at first trying to work together), there would only be 1 format right now.

Instead, they chose to go their own way and not adopt the standards (not the first time), and here we are almost 3 years later, with 97% of disks being bought in the SD format. That was truly a lost opportunity.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But then, of course, less than 3% of people currently think that way enough to buy Blu Ray disks, while 97% still get SD disks. Not exactly a mandate of adoption nor strong support of the BD format either.
> 
> The big facade is that there was a "winner" in this format "war". Yes, so far, HD DVD has lost out on potential adoption of their HD disk format. If the Blu Ray format does not gain significant (15-20% or more) adoption, it will follow the same path of HD DVD and fail as well. So far, there has been no significant overall migration to Blu Ray disk either.


Even though I bought into HD DVD during the sales last year, this has been exactly my feeling. Blu ray hasn't won anything at this point. In fact, some of the weeks sales ratios haven't been that different even after HD DVD pulled the plug... and more importantly, there have been no gains on DVD.

Not every HD DVD consumer is buying into Blu ray... and people that were on the fence before seem to be staying on the fence. IF this continues, and thus far no reason to believe it will change, then Blu ray could be pulling its plug by the end of 2009.

"Winning" control of about 2% of the market will not be enough to continue for most of the companies involved... which, I suspect, is chiefly why Toshiba has decided not to go into Blu ray after stopping HD DVD. They probably see the writing on the wall that the time is not yet right for either hi-def format.


----------



## chris0

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Which I do today using upconverted SD disks, as do millions of other people.


You asked why someone would trade in their HD DVD player for a BD player and I gave you a reason. If all you want is SD that's fine.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> The big facade is that there was a "winner" in this format "war". Yes, so far, HD DVD has lost out on potential adoption of their HD disk format. If the Blu Ray format does not gain significant (15-20% or more) adoption, it will follow the same path of HD DVD and fail as well. So far, there has been no significant overall migration to Blu Ray disk either.


Yeah,yeah, the HDM market is small. We all know it. That point has been made a gazillion times, as has been the counter-point that DVD was in a similar position in it's beginning. Only time will tell.


----------



## elaclair

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The really said part is that if Sony would not have been so greedy at the time and walked away from the table of establishing a single format and standards (when both they and the HD DVD and SD disk folks were at first trying to work together), there would only be 1 format right now.


Actually Toshiba was the one who finally walked away from the table to try and stand alone (with Microsoft's rumored tacit backing). But the point is pretty much moot at this point.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

elaclair said:


> Actually Toshiba was the one who finally walked away from the table to try and stand alone (with Microsoft's rumored tacit backing). But the point is pretty much moot at this point.


You really have to blame both "sides" in the hardware camp as well as all the movie studios. If they wanted HD to be successful a common ground format could have been established from day one, or at least day two.

I think future businesses should learn from this and realize that HD DVD and Blu ray suffered from the war... and the end result may be a delay in acceptance for a high-def format because consumers may end up skipping Blu ray and waiting for door #3 to open.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

elaclair said:


> Actually Toshiba was the one who finally walked away from the table to try and stand alone (with Microsoft's rumored tacit backing). But the point is pretty much moot at this point.


No so.

The DVD Standards Council established a proposed set of standards...Toshiba agreed to them (and later adopted them within HD DVD) while Sony walked away and said they felt they were too stringent.

It's a shame that Sony chose that path, as supposedly things were very close at the time to one standard.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Since I was not in the room for any of the negotiations, nor privy to internal information from both companies at the time, nor do I know anyone who was; I tend to think I do not have enough information to say with any certainty "He or They were the ones at fault here." 

Negotiations at this level can be very complicated, filled with twists, turns, and emotions. A deal should have been worked out. I tend to think a win-win-win for Sony, Toshiba, and the users was likely doable, but somehow it did not. Ah well, it got settled the other way.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jason Nipp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No so.
> 
> The DVD Standards Council established a proposed set of standards...Toshiba agreed to them (and later adopted them within HD DVD) while Sony walked away and said they felt they were too stringent.
> 
> It's a shame that Sony chose that path, as supposedly things were very close at the time to one standard.


AH Fred.... You still shouting that bent truth?

The HD Consortium was the same as it would have been for the DVD standard. Adopt one and banish the other. Then give a portion of royalties to all. Sony lost their ass on DVD, why on earth would they agree to a smaller cut of royalties on this one? Plus everyone knows BD has more capacity... so why would you abolish a potentially better format?

Please stop misleading people because of your personal differences with the situation.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Jason Nipp said:


> AH Fred.... You still shouting that bent truth?
> 
> The HD Consortium was the same as it would have been for the DVD standard. Adopt one and banish the other. Then give a portion of royalties to all. Sony lost their ass on DVD, why on earth would they agree to a smaller cut of royalties on this one? Plus everyone knows BD has more capacity... so why would you abolish a potentially better format?
> 
> Please stop misleading people because of your personal differences with the situation.


I don't see how he's misleading anyone. Sony went out on their own and it looks like it might pay off! There is no doubt that Sony wanted a bigger chunk of the pie and they might have lost.

I wish everyone would stop yelling at each other here.


----------



## DCSholtis

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No so.
> 
> The DVD Standards Council established a proposed set of standards...Toshiba agreed to them (and later adopted them within HD DVD) while Sony walked away and said they felt they were too stringent.
> 
> It's a shame that Sony chose that path, as supposedly things were very close at the time to one standard.


$ony was and is only in it for the money. They do not care about what the consumer wants and needs. Case in point there $500+ BD players. I agree with you all the way on this. HD DVD should have been the way to go but $ony wanted to control it all, so as a result of bribes.....I mean payoffs... they were able to in effect get rid of the competition. There could have and should have been one standard with HDi in it. It's amazing that we as HD DVD owners have the only "Profile 2.0" compliant players in theory, while $ony and the BDA are still trying to figure it out. Lots of luck!!


----------



## chris0

DCSholtis said:


> $ony was and is only in it for the money.


And that's different from practically every other corporation on the planet how?



DCSholtis said:


> Case in point there $500+ BD players.


My A35 was pretty damned close to that when I bought it. Do you really think that the player prices are not going to come down?



DCSholtis said:


> ...so as a result of bribes.....I mean payoffs... they were able to in effect get rid of the competition.


Forgetting Toshiba tried the same thing with Paramount? What's the difference? I mean other than the fact that it didn't work when Toshiba did it.



DCSholtis said:


> It's amazing that we as HD DVD owners have the only "Profile 2.0" compliant players in theory, while $ony and the BDA are still trying to figure it out. Lots of luck!!


Technically my PS3 is profile 2.0, it can display PIP. It just doesn't have BD-Live yet, so it doesn't have IME or anything like that.

I tried out the IME with Miami Vice and Batman Begins, found it less than interesting. I'm sure some people like it, but seriously...it's not the end-all be-all of what makes a good HDM player.


----------



## Christopher Gould

DCSholtis said:


> $ony was and is only in it for the money. They do not care about what the consumer wants and needs. Case in point there $500+ BD players. I agree with you all the way on this. HD DVD should have been the way to go but $ony wanted to control it all, so as a result of bribes.....I mean payoffs... they were able to in effect get rid of the competition. There could have and should have been one standard with HDi in it. It's amazing that we as HD DVD owners have the only "Profile 2.0" compliant players in theory, while $ony and the BDA are still trying to figure it out. Lots of luck!!


What world are you living in. What company isn't out for money. I believe the first big payout came form HD DVD to Paramont and Universal. 150 million ring a bell. They just got beat at ther own game.


----------



## Jason Nipp

AlbertZeroK said:


> I don't see how he's misleading anyone. Sony went out on their own and it looks like it might pay off! There is no doubt that Sony wanted a bigger chunk of the pie and they might have lost.
> 
> I wish everyone would stop yelling at each other here.


Sony had been developing the Blu laser and the media for it for years prior to the HD-DVD. Fact is the HD-DVD is based on the existing technology of DVD. It's basically a different compression scheme.


----------



## Jason Nipp

DCSholtis said:


> $ony was and is only in it for the money. They do not care about what the consumer wants and needs. Case in point there $500+ BD players. I agree with you all the way on this. HD DVD should have been the way to go but $ony wanted to control it all, so as a result of bribes.....I mean payoffs... they were able to in effect get rid of the competition. There could have and should have been one standard with HDi in it. It's amazing that we as HD DVD owners have the only "Profile 2.0" compliant players in theory, while $ony and the BDA are still trying to figure it out. Lots of luck!!


See my post in 2875.

If you think Toshiba was in it for charity... Your blind to Corporate world.

Fact is... this exact war already occurred on the DVD. And Toshiba got the bigger chunk of royalties.

In my strong opinion, Toshiba rushed out this new format.... a new variation of the existing DVD format, to beat Sony to market and to maintain a larger share of profits. Face it, the BLU laser was already in development in 1998, perhaps a little before, Sony had been working on the BLU laser even as Mini-disk was out. So Toshiba knew Sony was trying to work on the next best thing.

Whose greedy now, trying to block the release of a higher capacity format after billions had been invested. And contrary to beleif it was not just Sony working on the development. Many corporations had a stake in the evolution of the BLU laser.

Some people need to lay down the Sony prejudice and do some research before barking out the anti-Sony commentary. Now to say anything different, other than correcting my dates and or terminolgy.... sorry.... that IS misleading others.

I can't believe people miss the war so much they have to continue to throw rocks and try to turn people away even after concession has been made.

No one here has ever proven HD-DVD to be a better format.... No one here has ever proven BLU Ray to be a weaker format.... The only thing that has been proven is that HD-DVD was the more affordable format... And again that is because the ground work "DVD" was already in place and Toshiba wanted to flood the market to kill the highly vested effort on Blu Ray. In my opinion that kinda turns the table on the greed comment.

I don't like Sony, I tend not to buy their products, but fair is fair guys, don't talk trash without looking at the whole picture.... I am sorry the format you adopted early didn't win.... but life goes on.


----------



## Jason Nipp

DCSholtis said:


> $ony was and is only in it for the money. They do not care about what the consumer wants and needs. Case in point there $500+ BD players. I agree with you all the way on this. HD DVD should have been the way to go but $ony wanted to control it all, so as a result of bribes.....I mean payoffs... they were able to in effect get rid of the competition. There could have and should have been one standard with HDi in it. It's amazing that we as HD DVD owners have the only "Profile 2.0" compliant players in theory, while $ony and the BDA are still trying to figure it out. Lots of luck!!


The first HD-DVD players were priced $599 - $1000. Toshiba only lowered their pricing after Sony released BLU.

So I don't see your argument here.....

Profile 2.0 was an after thought..... It was never planned... Only after the HD-DVD world fell in love with the Internet features and PiP stuff did the BDA want to even consider adding this stuff.

This was an upgrade to future feature sets, it was never promised, and frankly most of us will never care.

This is no different than any manufacturer adding an option after the fact, it does not obsolete anything, just improves it and maybe a handful of people will want to buy the next new model as a result, perhaps some of those people get enough enjoyment out of their 07 Ford Escape and will not care that the 08 Ford Escape has butt warmers and voice activated radio controls.


----------



## Christopher Gould

was it this thread people were talking about the xbox 360 failure rate? here is a yahoo news from today

http://us.i1.yimg.com/videogames.yahoo.com/feature/red-ring-of-failure/1192354


----------



## ShawnL25

HDMe said:


> Even though I bought into HD DVD during the sales last year, this has been exactly my feeling. Blu ray hasn't won anything at this point. In fact, some of the weeks sales ratios haven't been that different even after HD DVD pulled the plug... and more importantly, there have been no gains on DVD.
> 
> Not every HD DVD consumer is buying into Blu ray... and people that were on the fence before seem to be staying on the fence. IF this continues, and thus far no reason to believe it will change, then Blu ray could be pulling its plug by the end of 2009.
> 
> "Winning" control of about 2% of the market will not be enough to continue for most of the companies involved... which, I suspect, is chiefly why Toshiba has decided not to go into Blu ray after stopping HD DVD. They probably see the writing on the wall that the time is not yet right for either hi-def format.


Blu-ray has averaged about 75% of Hidef sales and that has been with the better titles American Gangster and Beowulf being HD DVD exclusive this weeks titles strongly favor bluray and I think it will be the start of a wider 90% ish margin. This should hold up from here on out. Currently bluray is on a similar pace to dvd a this point in it's life cycle. While the smaller market base i.e. high def tv owners will certainly hurt adoption rates, the fact that it is basically the same medium will work to it's advantage. It's not like when the vcr broke and you went out to replace it and realized you had to replace all your media. This is a situation where the dvd player goes out and you replace it with a new dvd player that happens to play bluray as well. This will come as prices go down over the next year or two.


----------



## bobukcat

I think this probably has as much to do with the Holiday season being over as it does with HDDVD dying but that's not how the author sees it:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/12/lack-of-competition-sends-blu-ray-player-prices-upward/

There is another story on the same site stating that Toshiba lost an estimated $1 BILLION dollars in 2007 alone on HD DVD. That's a heafty price tag and one I hope will prevent future format wars like this one!


----------



## DCSholtis

Jason Nipp said:


> The first HD-DVD players were priced $599 - $1000. Toshiba only lowered their pricing after Sony released BLU.
> 
> So I don't see your argument here.....
> 
> Profile 2.0 was an after thought..... It was never planned... Only after the HD-DVD world fell in love with the Internet features and PiP stuff did the BDA want to even consider adding this stuff.
> 
> This was an upgrade to future feature sets, it was never promised, and frankly most of us will never care.
> 
> This is no different than any manufacturer adding an option after the fact, it does not obsolete anything, just improves it and maybe a handful of people will want to buy the next new model as a result, perhaps some of those people get enough enjoyment out of their 07 Ford Escape and will not care that the 08 Ford Escape has butt warmers and voice activated radio controls.


Big Surprise as we don't agree once again.... I'll continue to buy and enjoy HD DVD import versions of the what I consider crippled Blu Ray movies whenever I can, until the import market dries up. Such as the various editions of Terminator 2 that I own (French and upcoming German versions), Crank (Ultimate Edition (German Import) which BTW blows away the Blu version that I also own. Don't be so jaded, check out some of the stuff on the other side you might find yourself in a position to junk your BDP. :lol:


----------



## HIPAR

When will HD DVD disks disappear from the shelves? My guess is that none will be available anywhere in the world by this time next year.

--- CHAS


----------



## jwebb1970

HIPAR said:


> When will HD DVD disks disappear from the shelves? My guess is that none will be available anywhere in the world by this time next year.
> 
> --- CHAS


According to Best Buy (via the news articles), when they made their "going w/ Blu" statement they dd say that they would continue carrying HD DVD stuff as long as there was a demand. They have all discs on 30% off at the moment & rumors are that a bigger price slash is upcoming.

Similar markdowns are happeneing w/ CC, Target I'm told.

My guess is by Jan 09 at the latest, the only source for existing HD DVDs will be online (AMazon, Ebay, etc).

Personally grabbed a 2nd HDA2 yesterday thru Amazon. A factory refurb for $45. HAve nabbed a few cheap titles & am watching several more that I'll get when the price dips a bit more.

I'm gonna rock my dead HD format (and DVDs, too) for years to come. And maybe go Blu when 2.0 won't cost an arm & a leg (and WON'T only be a PS3). Right arond the time, Blu gets it's plug pulled, wth my luck!


----------



## toneman

I'm in the same boat as many of the other folks in this thread--I have both a Toshiba A2 and an XA2--both of which will serve me just fine playing my HD DVD and SD DVD collection for some time to come--along w/ a Panny BD30 Blu-ray player. Both of my HD DVD players hold more value (to me) now, due to the fact that I've modded them so that both players can play non-Region 1 (i.e., region-free) NTSC DVDs...with the XA2 also capable of playing non-R1 PAL DVDs as well (only limitation is that I don't have a 50Hz-capable display); FWIW I've also modded my BD30 so that it too can play non-R1 NTSC DVDs.

Yes HD DVD is a dead format, but I had no regrets buying an XA2--purchased after the announcement was made; as a *DVD* player, the XA2 is superior to most--if not arguably all--other HD DVD and Blu-ray standalone players currently available today...this--along w/ the fact that it's an excellent HD DVD player as well (duh)--made it easy for me to justify purchasing one...thus relegating my A2 to "backup" status.


----------



## Jason Nipp

DCSholtis said:


> ... check out some of the stuff on the other side you might find yourself in a position to junk your BDP. :lol:


Actually, I think I admitted more than once I had an A35. Which consequently I did recently sell on eBay.


----------



## paja

toneman said:


> I'm in the same boat as many of the other folks in this thread--I have both a Toshiba A2 and an XA2--both of which will serve me just fine playing my HD DVD and SD DVD collection for some time to come--along w/ a Panny BD30 Blu-ray player. Both of my HD DVD players hold more value (to me) now, due to the fact that I've modded them so that both players can play non-Region 1 (i.e., region-free) NTSC DVDs...with the XA2 also capable of playing non-R1 PAL DVDs as well (only limitation is that I don't have a 50Hz-capable display); FWIW I've also modded my BD30 so that it too can play non-R1 NTSC DVDs.
> 
> Yes HD DVD is a dead format, but I had no regrets buying an XA2--purchased after the announcement was made; as a *DVD* player, the XA2 is superior to most--if not arguably all--other HD DVD and Blu-ray standalone players currently available today...this--along w/ the fact that it's an excellent HD DVD player as well (duh)--made it easy for me to justify purchasing one...thus relegating my A2 to "backup" status.


AGREED- I got the XA2 last Feb.(2007) and it has been my primary player for the over 200 sd dvd' I already had.and the ones I'll continue to buy and rent


----------



## Tom Robertson

Well, being a bit slower than I wanted, I ordered my first next generation disks this week, first 4 arrived today.

And to all those who thought that Adult titles (or lack thereof) would be the death of Blu (as the incorrect legend goes about the Beta/VHS war would also lead one to [mis]believe) I managed to get xXx as one of my first disks. 

(That is the one staring Vin Diesel, Samuel L. Jackson, and Marton Csokas is rated PG-13, just so you know...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> Actually, I think I admitted more than once I had an A35. Which consequently I did recently sell on eBay.


with all the great prices on HDDVD movies, why did you sell it?


----------



## Jason Nipp

texaswolf said:


> with all the great prices on HDDVD movies, why did you sell it?


I wanted to recover part of my investment. In fact I almost got what I paid for it. With some fluff in shipping I did in fact. I have enough up-converting DVD players.... I do not want redundant equipment and discs.... I know some people think that may be a lame excuse, but at this point I'd rather wait for the Matrix trilogy on BD...etc.... I only had one HD-DVD player, and by the time the smoke clears I will have multiple BD players, so I will be able to watch my BD titles in more than one spot in my home....

Basically I dumped it while I still had a chance to recover the equipment cost.

I am not one who likes to be left holding the bag, I have said that before as well...


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> I wanted to recover part of my investment. In fact I almost got what I paid for it. With some fluff in shipping I did in fact. I have enough up-converting DVD players.... I do not want redundant equipment and discs.... I know some people think that may be a lame excuse, but at this point I'd rather wait for the Matrix trilogy on BD...etc.... I only had one HD-DVD player, and by the time the smoke clears I will have multiple BD players, so I will be able to watch my BD titles in more than one spot in my home....
> 
> Basically I dumped it while I still had a chance to recover the equipment cost.
> 
> I am not one who likes to be left holding the bag, I have said that before as well...


gotcha...myself, i knew the only BR play i was going to buy was the ps3...so i just held on to my HDDVD player


----------



## space86

So a month from now HD DVD's might be selling on the Internet for $10 ?


----------



## AlbertZeroK

space86 said:


> So a month from now HD DVD's might be selling on the Internet for $10 ?


They already are on various sites, including tower.com and bestbuy had some for $10.50 the other day, multiple others have $10 hd-dvds.


----------



## space86

$50 Best Buy Gift Card if you bought an HD DVD Player before Feb. 23 2008 at Best Buy!


----------



## Drew2k

The headline is a little ... sensational, but an interesting read nonetheless...

Source: BetaNews



> *Columbia University professor could trigger a Blu-ray injunction*
> 
> * By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews *
> 
> *March 21, 2008, 4:48 PM*
> 
> *With a few victories already under her belt, a celebrated physicist seeks to leverage those wins in a contest to reclaim her legacy. The other side of the story is that everything with a blue laser diode in it has just come under suspicion.*
> 
> A fifty-six-year veteran physicist who is currently Columbia University's Howe Professor Emerita of Materials Science and Engineering, will have her patent infringement case heard by the US International Trade Commission. If Judge Paul J. Luckern concurs, an injunction could be placed on the import of all electronics containing blue-laser diodes manufactured using a certain patented process.
> 
> [...]


----------



## bdowell

Drew2k said:


> The headline is a little ... sensational, but an interesting read nonetheless...
> 
> Source: BetaNews


It's a shame Toshiba didn't find this woman earlier and take advantage of some potential FUD that could have come from this news. If they had.... well, maybe they could have convinced Warners to stay neutral (at a minimum) and possibly even convince another studio to jump ship.

Too late now though, as Toshiba has thrown in the towell, all of the studios (except Warners) have stopped producing HD DVDs, and the fat lady has not just sung, but the opera house has been cleaned out via fire sales (or is darned near empty now).

It'll be interesting too see if this case goes anywhere, but in the end it's gonna be not much more than a pay day for this lady. Blu-ray is here to stay.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Not sure how this would have helped Toshiba, since the HD-DVD players also use a blue laser...


----------



## jwebb1970

HDMe said:


> Not sure how this would have helped Toshiba, since the HD-DVD players also use a blue laser...


Very true. No matter who "won", I wonder if this woman was waiting in the wings to pounce on the victor.

If the law says she's right, then that's fine. BUt, would a victory mean that all BD makers would have to pay a fee to her for use of "her" technology?

Can only imagine what that'll do to player prices, which _should be _ (but currently are not) gettting lower with the death of HD DVD.

Glad I got my 2 HD-A2s already. And together--esp w/ BestBuy now supplying me with a $50 "shoulder to cry on" for one of 'em-- cost at most a 3rd of what a single BD player runs these days. And add 7 free movies into that equation as well.

The "death of red" has upset me very little. Certainly not to the point of going Blu any time soon.


----------



## jwebb1970

Looks like BestBuy is now yanking all remaining HD DVD software as of 3/26.

The following was posted by a BestBuy employee over @ AVS. Comes from a memo from Mosaic (BB's inventory comany, I believe):

_Mosaic will be in all stores before open on March 26 to pull and send back all HD-DVD titles. The representative will fill out the sendback paperwork and create a manifest for each individual tote. They'll also flex all Blu-ray inventory across the space where HD-DVD was featured. It's possible that stores may not have enough product to flex over all the old HD-DVD sections. In these cases, stores should put recent releases or titles that appeal to their customers in these areas. The Movies Team is working to increase the Blu-ray assortment to resolve this problem.

Stores with upcoming PI
If you have a PI close to the sendback timeframe, let Mosaic box up the HD-DVD product and remerchandise the area. They should stage the full sendback totes in the warehouse. Stores may want to verify the contents of each tote with the tote manifest that will be created and either create prescan sheets or count each tote on the night of inventory. A special sendback will post on the April 16 for these stores to ship their product back to the warehouse.

Signage
Mosaic will remove any header signs that list both Blu-ray and HD-DVD, as they are no longer valid signs in the store. Stores will be responsible to order additional Blu-ray sign rails to fill in the space left by the removed HD-DVD signs. Here are the signs that can be ordered:

811-0140636 - High Definition Movies for the ultimate...
811-0140829 - Play exclusively on Blu-ray Disc Players...
811-0140832 - High Definition Resolution...
811-0140833 - More titles available online...
Click below for a copy of Mosaic's instructions. Contact Ask the Bus with any questions.

Related Content

Mosaic HD-DVD Sendback Instructions - PDF_

So much for using that $50 gift card towards discounted HD DVD titles.


----------



## machavez00

Just dropped into BB and was confirmed by a store associate.. Signs still said 30% off, but it sounded like they are willing to take offers on the more expensive box sets.


----------



## davemayo

jwebb1970 said:


> BUt, would a victory mean that all BD makers would have to pay a fee to her for use of "her" technology?
> 
> Can only imagine what that'll do to player prices, which _should be _(but currently are not) gettting lower with the death of HD DVD.


It will be quite a while before this is decided, and it is not clear yet exactly what products will be targeted. The patents cover LEDs, so to get an exclusion order to cover Blu-Ray players, she'll have to ask the Commission for a downstream exclusion order, which can be difficult to get (just ask Broadcom).


----------



## Tom Robertson

One thing to remember is it sounds like she is only claiming a particular manufacturing (or emitting) process--not Blue lasers themselves. If she doesn't price her licensing fees correctly, Sony will make their own suitable technology that doesn't infringe.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Drew2k

TiVo was charging DIRECTV $1 per DVR and that drove DIRECTV to build their own ...


----------



## HIPAR

I thought that HD DVD would fade from memory over the course of a year. I just visited several local stores that used to have a selection of disks. There is a purge going on here in NE Pa. No disks, no players.

--- CHAS


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> One thing to remember is it sounds like she is only claiming a particular manufacturing (or emitting) process--not Blue lasers themselves. If she doesn't price her licensing fees correctly, Sony will make their own suitable technology that doesn't infringe.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


This all further muddies the Blu Ray waters, which are mirky at this time already - no standards deployed until Profile 2.0 released later this year....many users with Profile 1.0 and 1.1 will not be able to use features on future Blu Ray disks....no Ethernet (except PS3) in the mainstream until Profile 2.0.....

Many Blu Ray adopters to date are not going to be pleased as is about the fact that it has taken Sony this long to get in gear with standards on the audio codec, javacode, and Ethernet lanes...especially when they find out their $400-$800 units have become semi-obsolete and they have to get a newer unit with the newer features.

This latest debacle around the patent and potential fees will only help to keep BD player prices higher (assuming it gets settled), in that Sony will have to recoup their $$$ somehow. In a nushell....the patent thing is not good news.


----------



## machavez00

PS3 is now 2.0 compliant


----------



## Jason Nipp

machavez00 said:


> PS3 is now 2.0 compliant


Yup, the new firmware for it spooled this week.


----------



## Christopher Gould

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This all further muddies the Blu Ray waters, which are mirky at this time already - no standards deployed until Profile 2.0 released later this year....many users with Profile 1.0 and 1.1 will not be able to use features on future Blu Ray disks....no Ethernet (except PS3) in the mainstream until Profile 2.0.....
> 
> Many Blu Ray adopters to date are not going to be pleased as is about the fact that it has taken Sony this long to get in gear with standards on the audio codec, javacode, and Ethernet lanes...especially when they find out their $400-$800 units have become semi-obsolete and they have to get a newer unit with the newer features.
> 
> This latest debacle around the patent and potential fees will only help to keep BD player prices higher (assuming it gets settled), in that Sony will have to recoup their $$$ somehow. In a nushell....the patent thing is not good news.


Is the sky always falling in the HD DVD world. I guess the fact that every year companies come out with new features is news to you. I bought a DVD player and the next year guess what there were progressive output DVD players. Did It stop my player from working no. Even if this lady wins her case , most people will never no, and it will never cost as much as you think it will.


----------



## texaswolf

Jason Nipp said:


> Yup, the new firmware for it spooled this week.


i just got an upgrade.....4-5 days ago....was that it, or is there gonna be another coming?


----------



## DCSholtis

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This all further muddies the Blu Ray waters, which are mirky at this time already - no standards deployed until Profile 2.0 released later this year....many users with Profile 1.0 and 1.1 will not be able to use features on future Blu Ray disks....no Ethernet (except PS3) in the mainstream until Profile 2.0.....
> 
> Many Blu Ray adopters to date are not going to be pleased as is about the fact that it has taken Sony this long to get in gear with standards on the audio codec, javacode, and Ethernet lanes...especially when they find out their $400-$800 units have become semi-obsolete and they have to get a newer unit with the newer features.
> 
> This latest debacle around the patent and potential fees will only help to keep BD player prices higher (assuming it gets settled), in that Sony will have to recoup their $$$ somehow. In a nushell....the patent thing is not good news.


The LG BH200 Combo player will be profile 2.0 compliant after a software update. It's got the memory specs for it. For now unless you want to buy a PS3 thats the only way to go. Way to go, $ony......I'm saving up for the Combo as I refuse to buy anything more from $ony.


----------



## chris0

texaswolf said:


> i just got an upgrade.....4-5 days ago....was that it, or is there gonna be another coming?


Yup, that was it. Rumor has it that in a month or two there will be another FW update that will allow internal DTS HD MA decoding. No really solid info on it, though.


----------



## Jason Nipp

chris0 said:


> Yup, that was it. Rumor has it that in a month or two there will be another FW update that will allow internal DTS HD MA decoding. No really solid info on it, though.


Not sure it is much of a rumor as I believe it was announced.


----------



## chris0

Jason Nipp said:


> Not sure it is much of a rumor as I believe it was announced.


As far as I know it was only "announced" by a guy at the DTS booth at CES. I haven't seen any formal announcements.


----------



## Guest

DCSholtis said:


> The LG BH200 Combo player will be profile 2.0 compliant after a software update. It's got the memory specs for it. For now unless you want to buy a PS3 thats the only way to go. Way to go, $ony......I'm saving up for the Combo as I refuse to buy anything more from $ony.


I haven't been fond of Sony recently either, but the PS3 is an exception. You get a Blu-ray player that is as good as anything out there right now, it's Profile 2.0 compliant, and a bunch of other features, like the ability to stream videos from your PC, thrown in for free. I've had mine for about a month now and it lives up to its reviews.


----------



## texaswolf

rcoleman111 said:


> I haven't been fond of Sony recently either, but the PS3 is an exception. You get a Blu-ray player that is as good as anything out there right now, it's Profile 2.0 compliant, and a bunch of other features, like the ability to stream videos from your PC, thrown in for free. I've had mine for about a month now and it lives up to its reviews.


yeah the streaming thing i didn't think was a big deal....until i actually started using it...it's really nice for streaming music, and downloading missed tv shows, and streaming them over...saves me from hooking up the laptop to the tv.


----------



## tgr131

Just thought I'd drop by and let any HD-DVDers know I recieved my 5 free disks from Toshiba today. They were out of one of my selections, so they send me one of the Harry Potter films instead. They must still be trying to fulfill orders.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

The Blu ray camp has an interesting conundrum to deal with at the moment.

When HD DVD began dropping prices to compete, the "firesale" mantra began... and the rumor mill spun until Toshiba did in fact give up the game. However, the cheaper prices for HD DVD said two things that are very important:

1. HD DVD sold much better at lower prices. People like affordable stuff!
2. Even at lower prices, consumers didn't just jump on like no tomorrow.

So... Blu ray is left standing... but here's the conundrum. IF they keep the prices high, consumers won't come on board fast enough to grow vs standard DVD. IF they drop prices, consumers might actually lose confidence in Blu ray and think they are starting "firesales" too... AND even with lower prices, given what HD DVD experienced + the slow economy we are in, it is entirely possible Blu ray can hurt even without direct competition in the HD media market.

HD DVD and Toshiba can fall back on "we lost, we misjudged, we made mistakes"... but if Blu ray fails now, they will have no one to blame but themselves. Every move has to be carefully measured, so I don't envy those folks making the business decisions now.


----------



## Jason Nipp

actually, 2.20 added more than BD-Live to the PS3. It added a semi cool resume play feature that can resume even if you accidentally eject the disc. Any one with a PS3 knows that the wife often confuses the eject touch pad with the power touch pad on the console.

This ones useful.


----------



## Guest

texaswolf said:


> yeah the streaming thing i didn't think was a big deal....until i actually started using it...it's really nice for streaming music, and downloading missed tv shows, and streaming them over...saves me from hooking up the laptop to the tv.


I really didn't pay much attention to that feature when I was looking into it - I was just looking for the best Blu-ray player available. But it really is a nice feature. I no longer have to burn a DVD to watch a video that's on my PC.


----------



## Christopher Gould

Blu-ray sales impacting DVD

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...eport:_Blu-ray_Disc_Sales_Impacting_DVD_/1602


----------



## bobukcat

Christopher Gould said:


> Blu-ray sales impacting DVD
> 
> http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...eport:_Blu-ray_Disc_Sales_Impacting_DVD_/1602


That's good news, double digit percentages of the title's total sales! I wonder if the sales to the big rental companies (BlBu, Netflix, Hollywood) are factored into those numbers?


----------



## DCSholtis

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/technology/newsid_7314000/7314276.stm



> A company claims it has cracked the anti-piracy technology on Blu-ray discs.
> 
> Slysoft says the new version of its AnyDVD programme allows users to make "backup security copies" of high definition movies.
> 
> _*The claim is a blow to Sony which developed the Blu-ray format.
> 
> The discs are protected by an anti-piracy system called BD+.
> 
> When it launched in 2007, developers boasted it would not be cracked for 10 years*_.


Couldn't have happened to a nicer company than $ony.


----------



## bobukcat

Now that the format war is BD versus DVD it's interesting to see that more than just the mainsteam numbers are looking pretty good for BD. I'll save my idle ramblings on what the BD-Live content may be like for inside my head...... 

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/3...thrilled-with-blu-ray-adoption-rate-seeks-to/


----------



## Jason Nipp

The encryption had already been broken on games. Considering games are BD I consider that old news.


----------



## Guest

bobukcat said:


> Now that the format war is BD versus DVD it's interesting to see that more than just the mainsteam numbers are looking pretty good for BD.


BD versus DVD is not a format war.


----------



## chris0

rcoleman111 said:


> BD versus DVD is not a format war.


Why not? They're two different formats, competing for the same dollar.


----------



## Drew2k

chris0 said:


> Why not? They're two different formats, competing for the same dollar.


Agreed. It's certainly much more than a "skirmish" or "police action". :lol:


----------



## Guest

chris0 said:


> Why not? They're two different formats, competing for the same dollar.


Not really. It's the "next-generation" HD format replacing the older generation of SD formats. It's a transition from SD to HD, not a war between competing HD formats.


----------



## Drew2k

rcoleman111 said:


> Not really. It's the "next-generation" HD format replacing the older generation of SD formats. It's a transition from SD to HD, not a war between competing HD formats.


Ah, but you said "it's not a format war" ... not "it's not an HD format war".


----------



## Stewart Vernon

rcoleman111 said:


> BD versus DVD is not a format war.


I agree. If you are losing something like 97% to 3%, it's not a war. Until Blu ray is pulling at least 15-20% compared to overal sales of DVD, I'd say it is not a war at all.

If people thought Blu ray outselling HD DVD 60/40 or 70/30 was a massacre, DVD outselling Blu ray 97/3 or worse shouldn't even be worthy of conversation.


----------



## Guest

Drew2k said:


> Ah, but you said "it's not a format war" ... not "it's not an HD format war".


It isn't a format war of any kind. A format war is between competing standards for the same technology - in this case blue laser. Competition between between HD DVD and Blu-ray to set the standard for blue-laser discs constitutes a format war. Competition between blue-laser and the older red-laser technology does not. It's like saying there was a format war between DVDs and VHS tapes, or that there's a format war between HDTV and SDTV. Those are new technologies emerging to replace older technologies, not format wars.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe said:


> I agree. If you are losing something like 97% to 3%, it's not a war. Until Blu ray is pulling at least 15-20% compared to overal sales of DVD, I'd say it is not a war at all.
> 
> If people thought Blu ray outselling HD DVD 60/40 or 70/30 was a massacre, DVD outselling Blu ray 97/3 or worse shouldn't even be worthy of conversation.


You figures are outdated. It's now 90/10 or more since the end of the HD format war.


rcoleman111 said:


> It isn't a format war of any kind. A format war is between competing standards for the same technology - in this case blue laser. Competition between between HD DVD and Blu-ray to set the standard for blue-laser discs constitutes a format war. Competition between blue-laser and the older red-laser technology does not. It's like saying there was a format war between DVDs and VHS tapes, or that there's a format war between HDTV and SDTV. Those are new technologies emerging to replace older technologies, not format wars.


"...any of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." From the point of view of the manufacturers this is a transition (from low margin to high margin I bet).  From a standpoint of dollar choice, it could be considered a war. Either way, who cares what it's called? 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> You figures are outdated. It's now 90/10 or more since the end of the HD format war.


Since when? Seriously. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but I hadn't seen any kind of movement like that.

HD DVD + Blu ray were pulling about 3% combined last year... so for Blu ray to pull 10% they would have to have probably nearly quadrupled their share from last year. I just don't believe that is the case, and I know I haven't seen anyone posting numbers to back that up.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Christopher Gould said:


> Blu-ray sales impacting DVD
> 
> http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...eport:_Blu-ray_Disc_Sales_Impacting_DVD_/1602





HDMe said:


> Since when? Seriously. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but I hadn't seen any kind of movement like that.
> 
> HD DVD + Blu ray were pulling about 3% combined last year... so for Blu ray to pull 10% they would have to have probably nearly quadrupled their share from last year. I just don't believe that is the case, and I know I haven't seen anyone posting numbers to back that up.


Happy to supply.  (I was VERY surprised to see how high these numbers were; as quoted by the CEA and others. I guess I wasn't the only one to suddenly start buying Blu.  ) Thankfully Christopher Gould was able to post them before I could get to a computer where I could post.

(And I completely understand the need for real data to back up one's points; I didn't sense being disagreeable at all.)

I also agree one or two weeks could be pent up waiting for the format war to end. So it will be interesting to see the next couple weeks data. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> Happy to supply.  (I was VERY surprised to see how high these numbers were; as quoted by the CEA and others. I guess I wasn't the only one to suddenly start buying Blu.  ) Thankfully Christopher Gould was able to post them before I could get to a computer where I could post.
> 
> (And I completely understand the need for real data to back up one's points; I didn't sense being disagreeable at all.)
> 
> I also agree one or two weeks could be pent up waiting for the format war to end. So it will be interesting to see the next couple weeks data.


I guess what is confusing me is that I also saw (following the link in that article to the discussion on another forum) that it sounded like 68,000 copies of No Country for Old Men sold the first week, and that was 10% of its DVD sales. Now, I remember last year the big week sales were for titles like 300 or Transformers or Spider-Man that sold around 100,000-150,000 copies... so if 100K last year was 3% or less and 68K this year is 10%... that sounds like a bad indicator rather than a good one to me... because it sounds like people aren't buying anything.

Or am I missing something?

Keep in mind that while I bought into HD DVD, I only did so when it was really inexpensive.. so I bear no ill will towards Blu ray, so if it succeeds that would be fine and in a year or two I might be able to invest in it as well... but I just haven't been seeing any clear indicators that actual sales are growing.

Sometimes the percentages aren't meaningful when we find out they are based on very small numbers.


----------



## bobukcat

rcoleman111 said:


> It isn't a format war of any kind. A format war is between competing standards for the same technology - in this case blue laser. Competition between between HD DVD and Blu-ray to set the standard for blue-laser discs constitutes a format war. Competition between blue-laser and the older red-laser technology does not. It's like saying there was a format war between DVDs and VHS tapes, or that there's a format war between HDTV and SDTV. Those are new technologies emerging to replace older technologies, not format wars.


That's your definition of it, if you think that the BD group doesn't want to destroy DVDs and replace them you're mistaken - such hostilities consititue a war to me, at least in the context of consumer electronics. Some would argue that using the word war in regards to such pursuits demeans what participants in an actual war suffer - but that's really straying too far OT. 

I think we can agree to disagree on the wording....


----------



## HIPAR

I'd say the focus of the 'war' has changed from destroying the immediate threat to purging any vestige of latent threats to the new regime. 

--- CHAS


----------



## texaswolf

it's not a "format war" since it's HD vs SD...but it is a war....or a "hostile takeover attempt"..."replacement war"..."upgrade war"


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe said:


> I guess what is confusing me is that I also saw (following the link in that article to the discussion on another forum) that it sounded like 68,000 copies of No Country for Old Men sold the first week, and that was 10% of its DVD sales. Now, I remember last year the big week sales were for titles like 300 or Transformers or Spider-Man that sold around 100,000-150,000 copies... so if 100K last year was 3% or less and 68K this year is 10%... that sounds like a bad indicator rather than a good one to me... because it sounds like people aren't buying anything.
> 
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> Keep in mind that while I bought into HD DVD, I only did so when it was really inexpensive.. so I bear no ill will towards Blu ray, so if it succeeds that would be fine and in a year or two I might be able to invest in it as well... but I just haven't been seeing any clear indicators that actual sales are growing.
> 
> Sometimes the percentages aren't meaningful when we find out they are based on very small numbers.


_Spider-man 3_, _Transformers_, and _300_ are in a different league than _No Country for Old Men_. And might explain the 3% vs. 10% difference too. _No Country for Old Men_ might attract more of an audience that would be Next Gen buyers.

I do think DVD's days are numbered--big numbers still , but that Blu will take DVD eventually.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## texaswolf

Tom Robertson said:


> _Spider-man 3_, _Transformers_, and _300_ are in a different league than _No Country for Old Men_. And might explain the 3% vs. 10% difference too. _No Country for Old Men_ might attract more of an audience that would be Next Gen buyers.
> 
> I do think DVD's days are numbered--big numbers still , but that Blu will take DVD eventually.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I hope so, sooner HD becomes norm...sooner the next tech will become available


----------



## chris0

LOL...Great. Since the Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD thing is dead we can now argue whether or not Blu-Ray vs. DVD is a "format war." Looks kind of like people are still lining up on the same sides as before, too. Interesting.


----------



## Tom Robertson

chris0 said:


> LOL...Great. Since the Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD thing is dead we can now argue whether or not Blu-Ray vs. DVD is a "format war." Looks kind of like people are still lining up on the same sides as before, too. Interesting.


As you say, interesting thought. I didn't sit this one out tho.  (Tho I won't have anything else to say as to this being another format war.)


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> _Spider-man 3_, _Transformers_, and _300_ are in a different league than _No Country for Old Men_. And might explain the 3% vs. 10% difference too. _No Country for Old Men_ might attract more of an audience that would be Next Gen buyers.
> 
> I do think DVD's days are numbered--big numbers still , but that Blu will take DVD eventually.


That could make sense... which is actually part of why I never liked the percentages last year, since percentages without quantity of sales means very little. Percentages can fluctuate wildly even if quantity of sales goes down... especially this time of year when we are post-Christmas but pre-summer-blockbuster.

I would like to see something survive... in this case Blu ray, so hopefully they can climb and be more than a niche so in a year or two I'll be in a position to buy into them and go from there. I had actually already slowed down my DVD purchases, notsomuch because of the HD DVD vs Blu ray "war" but because I had started DVRing more things to keep instead.


----------



## Drew2k

War, war is stupid

And people are stupid

And love means nothing

In some strange quarters


----------



## Drew2k

Consider that my cultural contribution for the day.


----------



## elaclair

Drew2k said:


> Consider that my cultural contribution for the day.


Now who knew that Drew would be in to Culture Club........


----------



## chris0

Drew2k said:


> War, war is stupid
> 
> And people are stupid
> 
> And love means nothing
> 
> In some strange quarters


Wow, I actually recognized that when I read it. I still have that album on vinyl.

Edit: Man, I just checked my record collection and I have the 12" "Ultimate Dance Mix" of that song, too. Sadly, this is not an April Fool's joke.

Edit #2: I've decided to throw my "Repo Man" soundtrack on the record player to balance things out. Next up will be the Nail's "88 lines about 44 women."


----------



## Drew2k

Yes, I have "Waking Up With the House On Fire" on vinyl somewhere in a storage box! 

PS - Nails "88 Lines" - one of my favorite songs from college ...

Deborah was a Catholic girl ... 
She held out to the bitter end ...

Great song! 

Na .. na na nah ... na nah nahh ... :up:


----------



## chris0

OK, thanks to Drew I just got back from a trip to the 80's via my 20 year old turntable and a needle that should probably be replaced. On my journey were Culture Club, The Thompson Twins, The Nails, Madness, Dead or Alive, Yaz, Cocteau Twins, Soft Cell and a few others.

What did I miss while I was gone? Did anything new happen in the format war between Blu-Ray and DVD? Is there a new president yet? Do we have flying cars? I feel like I've been gone for so long.

Edit: I've just figured out how to use my receiver to listen to LPs and use it to view my PC on my plasma at the same time...I think I'm in too deep, there's no getting out of it, in too deep no doubt about it.


----------



## dhhaines

chris0 said:


> OK, thanks to Drew I just got back from a trip to the 80's via my 20 year old turntable and a needle that should probably be replaced. On my journey were Culture Club, The Thompson Twins, The Nails, Madness, Dead or Alive, Yaz, Cocteau Twins, Soft Cell and a few others.
> 
> What did I miss while I was gone? Did anything new happen in the format war between Blu-Ray and DVD? Is there a new president yet? Do we have flying cars? I feel like I've been gone for so long.
> 
> Edit: I've just figured out how to use my receiver to listen to LPs and use it to view my PC on my plasma at the same time...I think I'm in too deep, there's no getting out of it, in too deep no doubt about it.


 Okay..... I haven't been to this thread for awhile now......

I REALLY think that maybe it has now officially run it's course.. :lol:


----------



## chris0

dhhaines said:


> Okay..... I haven't been to this thread for awhile now......
> 
> I REALLY think that maybe it has now officially run it's course.. :lol:


I'm back now. Good thing I don't still have my VCR and VHS movies or I'd have finished the evening watching "Pink Floyd's The Wall."

Anyway, back on track...with an estimated 15% or so of households now equipped with HDTVs, and the Feb. '09 cutoff of analog signals which will no doubt make many people think that they'll need an HDTV to receive the new signals, that number should increase quite a bit by the end of the year. That should be good news for the adoption of Blu-ray in the same time frame.


----------



## Guest

Tom Robertson said:


> I do think DVD's days are numbered--big numbers still , but that Blu will take DVD eventually.


Hard to see how DVDs can stick around forever with everything gradually migrating to HD. What's good about the transition to Blu-ray is that it's backward compatible with DVD, so you don't have to worry about your existing collection of DVDs becoming obsolete anytime soon.


----------



## bobukcat

It's the first one, and I personally don't give a rat's butt about it but, this is the first review I've seen of any BD-Live functionality on any movie or player. I'm guessing they will work out some of the kinks, time will tell.....but it won't change my buying or renting habits unless they come up with something REALLY evolutionary for it - which is not likely IMO.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/04/03/walk-hards-bd-live-features-get-tested-on-sonys-ps3/


----------



## GrumpyBear

Feature Creep, that is a good term for it. We are years away from being able to truely exploit this kind of feature. No matter who is pushing it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dhhaines said:


> Okay..... I haven't been to this thread for awhile now......
> 
> I REALLY think that maybe it has now officially run it's course.. :lol:


It certainly appears so.


----------



## turey22

the other day i went to a new video store that they opened up here in my area. Its called family video. So i walk in and look around. I go up to a manager and ask her if they are going to have bluray soon. She tells me not untill there is a decisive winner over hd-dvd or bluray. i tell her that hd-dvd dropped out of the race and she looks at me like "oh snaps". then she tells me in a couple of months. just wanted to throw that out there, seems like not everyone has read the memo.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I know this is off-topic, but I figure some folks in here might find it interesting.

I was at a HAMFest today (Amateur Radio) and there was a guy there with a stack, had to be at least 50+, Laserdiscs. I was tempted to look, but having no prospects at a Laserdisc player (or interest really) I passed... but it was the first time I've seen that quantity in one place in a long time!


----------



## elaclair

HDMe said:


> I know this is off-topic, but I figure some folks in here might find it interesting.
> 
> I was at a HAMFest today (Amateur Radio) and there was a guy there with a stack, had to be at least 50+, Laserdiscs. I was tempted to look, but having no prospects at a Laserdisc player (or interest really) I passed... but it was the first time I've seen that quantity in one place in a long time!


I still have about 300 in my collection.......:grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Universal to release their first Blu-ray disks, July 22. *CEPro article*


> 04.17.2008 - Universal's first Blu-ray movies will be available on July 22, with a total of 40 titles coming during the second half of the year, according to the Hollywood Reporter.
> 
> The biggest studio backer of HD DVD will release "The Mummy," "The Mummy Returns," and "The Scorpion King" as its first BD titles, with other back catalog films like "Knocked Up," "The 40-Year-Old Virgin," "Miami Vice" and more coming later this year.


Woohoo! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Drew2k

I was at Circuit City yesterday and they have a bin with approximately 15 HD-DVD movies in it. Unbelievably, the prices were NOT discounted. Who's going to pay $34 for a HD-DVD movie?


----------



## AlbertZeroK

Drew2k said:


> I was at Circuit City yesterday and they have a bin with approximately 15 HD-DVD movies in it. Unbelievably, the prices were NOT discounted. Who's going to pay $34 for a HD-DVD movie?


Yeah, Wal-Mart still hasn't discounted their HD-DVD's yet.


----------



## DCSholtis

Was able to find a HD DVD copy of Charlie Wilson's War from bol.com in the Netherlands. Actually surprised that they were actually pressed. Placed my order yesterday should get it in about 2 weeks.


----------



## Jason Nipp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It certainly appears so.


Don't know if you have been keeping up HD, but the PS3 is now Profile 2 compliant and DTS HD MA. The Audio codecs were updated last week.

I personally don't care for the net based stuff, it slows me down, I don't have an ultra high speed net connection at home.


----------



## Dr_J

I got the XBox 360 HD-DVD add-on last October, enticed by the five free movies deal. I got it from Amazon.com. Today, I get an E-mail from them saying because of the discontinuation of HD-DVD players, they're giving me a $50 credit towards future purchases. (The deal was for up to 10 players and $500 if applicable.)

All I can say is, what a company! It's one of the most customer-friendly outfits I've ever dealt with. It's hard for me to imagine what life was like before Amazon.com!


----------



## apexmi

Dr_J said:


> I got the XBox 360 HD-DVD add-on last October, enticed by the five free movies deal. I got it from Amazon.com. Today, I get an E-mail from them saying because of the discontinuation of HD-DVD players, they're giving me a $50 credit towards future purchases. (The deal was for up to 10 players and $500 if applicable.)
> 
> All I can say is, what a company! It's one of the most customer-friendly outfits I've ever dealt with. It's hard for me to imagine what life was like before Amazon.com!


Best Buy did the same, I already used my $50 gift card. Bought an HDA1 when they launched


----------



## space86

Is the PS3 Firmware 2.0 yet?


----------



## chris0

space86 said:


> Is the PS3 Firmware 2.0 yet?


The firmware is version 2.3 currently, with FW 2.2 the PS3 became Profile 2.0 compliant. Two separate things, firmware and profile.


----------



## machavez00

firmware 2.30 added dts-MA decoding


----------



## jwebb1970

apexmi said:


> Best Buy did the same, I already used my $50 gift card. Bought an HDA1 when they launched


Also got $50 from BestBuy. Made my $99 A2 & 7 free discs (bought during pre-BF "blowout") a $50 investment.

Or....it meant I got Mario Kart Wii for nothing more than CA sales tax (preordered--getiing it Sunday morning!)


----------



## DCSholtis

For anyone on the fence about it. I received my LG BH 200 Combo player the other day with the current software updates it works like a charm. Currently its 1.1 profile but with another software upgrade it will be 2.0. Crutchfield had it on sale for $529.


----------



## Richierich

Dan, what would the Panasonic DMP-BD50 BluRay Player have that the LG doesn't have as far as BluRay goes???


----------



## Drew2k

DCSholtis said:


> For anyone on the fence about it. I received my LG BH 200 Combo player the other day with the current software updates it works like a charm. Currently its 1.1 profile but with another software upgrade it will be 2.0. Crutchfield had it on sale for $529.


Dan - Is this the LG combo-player that didn't play HD-DVD interactive features? A few things have been going in my favor and I now wouldn't blink at paying $500 for a combo player IFF it was 20 profile compatible AND played all HD-DVD interactive features ...


----------



## DCSholtis

Drew2k said:


> Dan - Is this the LG combo-player that didn't play HD-DVD interactive features? A few things have been going in my favor and I now wouldn't blink at paying $500 for a combo player IFF it was 20 profile compatible AND played all HD-DVD interactive features ...


Not sure if your thinking of the LG BH 100 the ugly step sister to the 200 but as I said just got its software upgrade to 1.1 so far its working on my HD DVD and Blu Ray titles I've thrown at it. There MAY be one or two problem titles I would check the thread at AVS to be sure of which titles may still be troublesome.

These are the Changes that the software upgrade took care of:



> Official Change Log:
> 
> 1. Bonus View (BD Profile 1.1) Update
> 2. High Resolution Audio Support Update:
> * DTS-HD 7.1Ch output via pass through
> * Dolby Digital Plus 7.1Ch output via pass through
> * Dolby TrueHD 7.1Ch decode & PCM output via HDMI
> 3. User selectable Film Mode (1080p 24Hz) has been enabled
> 4. Firmware update via Network has been enabled


http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=50038&page=6

Here is the AVS thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1009104


----------



## Drew2k

Thanks Dan - I'll check out the AVS threads. That's great news about the 2.0 profile "upgradeability" for BD - it was the issue with still being able to play interactive features of HD-DVD discs that I was wondering about. I'm pretty sure that it was what you called the "ugly stepsister", the LG BH100, that didn't play HD-DVD interactive content ...

Off to AVS to research some more!


----------



## space86

I read that Paramount is back to supporting Blu-ray,
so I guess we will get the new Indiana Jones movie and
Iron Man on Blu-ray this fall.


----------



## DCSholtis

space86 said:


> I read that Paramount is back to supporting Blu-ray,
> so I guess we will get the new Indiana Jones movie and
> Iron Man on Blu-ray this fall.


Amazon Germany already has pre order info up for Iron Man so its coming at some point. Amazon.de says it will be released on Oct. 1 in Germany.


----------



## Drew2k

This seems to be the best place that I know I can get some good feedback without having to get yelled at, so here goes:

Anyone know if the LG combo HD-DVD/Blu Ray player BH200 will support BD Profile 2.0? From what I've found, it was recently upgraded from 1.0 to 1.1 with a firmware update, and the "hope" is it can be upgraded again to 2.0 because all the necessary hardware is in place. I got this from AVS Forums, but there are a million posts over there and I'm hoping someone over here knows definitively about this player and BD Profile 2.0 ...

Danke! Merci!


----------



## Bobby H

Nope.

The Playstation 3 is the only Blu-ray capable device on the market capable of being upgraded to BD Profile 2.0 operation. None of the stand-alone BD players on the market can do it, not even the $500 Panasonic DMP-BD50.

The $699 list price for the Profile 2.0 compliant DMP-BD50 is pretty staggering -and it doesn't include a blank SD card that is needed for downloading BD Live content off the Internet.

On the bright side, not very many people really care a lot about downloading stuff through their movie disc player. Hopefully prices will start to fall on the obsolescent profile 1.1 and 1.0 BD players pretty soon. Hopefully we'll see less expensive (and more functional) BD profile 2.0 players this fall.


----------



## DCSholtis

Bobby H said:


> Nope.
> 
> The Playstation 3 is the only Blu-ray capable device on the market capable of being upgraded to BD Profile 2.0 operation. None of the stand-alone BD players on the market can do it, not even the $500 Panasonic DMP-BD50.
> 
> The $699 list price for the Profile 2.0 compliant DMP-BD50 is pretty staggering -and it doesn't include a blank SD card that is needed for downloading BD Live content off the Internet.
> 
> On the bright side, not very many people really care a lot about downloading stuff through their movie disc player. Hopefully prices will start to fall on the obsolescent profile 1.1 and 1.0 BD players pretty soon. Hopefully we'll see less expensive (and more functional) BD profile 2.0 players this fall.


I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the fact that LG has stated (Page 7 of their manuel). that with a software update it CAN be made profile 2.0 compliant. We'll just have to wait on LG on this issue I would guess.

From the service manual which can be downloaded from LG's website:



> BD-ROM Disc Compatibility
> This player supports BD-ROM Profile 1 version 1.0
> only. *Other profiles (i.e., BD-ROM Profile 1 version
> 1.1 or Profile 2) could be supported through updating
> player's firmware later.* It may be required to
> update the firmware in case of playing a certain
> newly released commercial BD-ROM disc. For
> updating player's firmware, please refer to
> http://us.lgservice.com or contact LG Electronics
> customer care center at 1-800-243-0000


Since the update to 1.1 has already taken place I'd say its a pretty good chance that 2.0 may happen. I'll email LG to see what they say.


----------



## Drew2k

DCSholtis said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the fact that LG has stated (Page 7 of their manuel). that with a software update it CAN be made profile 2.0 compliant. We'll just have to wait on LG on this issue I would guess.
> 
> From the service manual which can be downloaded from LG's website:
> 
> Since the update to 1.1 has already taken place I'd say its a pretty good chance that 2.0 may happen. I'll email LG to see what they say.


Thanks Dan. I searched LG's site for FAQs or other info about the BH200 supported profiles, but never thought to check the user manual. The fact it says "could be" is promising, but there's the chance they DON'T provide the update ...

If you find out anything from LG, please let us know!

Maybe I should just wait for the BH300, apparently due out this June or July, and plan for THAT combo player to be what I want.


----------



## DCSholtis

Got my email back from LG...and their customer service is the usual....they say the update they sent thru makes the machine 2.0 compliant. Not quite. I do know that it has the requisite amount of memory internally to handle it. And if it would need something extra they could either ask owners or even provide themselves a USB memory flash stick in the event more memory was needed. I'm sure that plenty of owners have them alread as prior to the latest update the only way to get software hits to load was to either load them up on a flash drive OR create a CD and run that thru the player.


----------



## Bobby H

The problem with the BH200 and BD Profile 2.0 status is it lacks 1GB of local storage capacity, which is part of the Profile 2.0 specification.

If LG comes up with a proper workaround to make BD Live content download via the LAN connection directly to an attached USB flash memory thumb drive that may be enough to get the job done.

FWIW, the Panasonic DMP-BD50 (which is the first standalone Blu-ray player originally built as a Profile 2.0 compliant product) apparently doesn't have any on board memory either. Users have to insert a flash memory card into the player's SD slot for downloaded content storage. What's really funny is the $699 player doesn't come with a SD card at all. That's sold separately. Thankfully 1GB SD cards are pretty inexpensive these days.


----------



## Cholly

Seems as though people aren't jumping on the Blu-ray bandwagon now that the war is over. This must really disappoint Sony and the studios.
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/20...e_format_battle_but_consumers_dont_buy_it.php


----------



## Christopher Gould

Seem some poeple haven't figured out this isn't the time of year people rush out and buy electonics. Wait until the christmas season. I don't get this thought that Blu-ray has to take over in the first year or the second. DVD didn't become cheap until 4or5 years either.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Christopher Gould said:


> Seem some poeple haven't figured out this isn't the time of year people rush out and buy electonics. Wait until the christmas season. I don't get this thought that Blu-ray has to take over in the first year or the second. DVD didn't become cheap until 4or5 years either.


While I agree with you in principle here... the same folks who want to say "this is the time of year when people don't buy as much" are some of the same folks who were pointing out how Blu-ray was outselling HD-DVD back in January and February of this year... and pointing to falling sales of HD-DVD in the early months of this year as signs of it failing. Some folks are trying to have and eat their cake.

IF the time-of-year is mostly to blame, then it was to blame for HD-DVD sagging sales early this year too.

Truth be told, I think both statements are actually true... HD-DVD was failing to adopt, and this time of year is a bad time for electronics sales... but I think the near future may also tell a tale of Blu-ray failing to adopt as well.


----------



## Drew2k

I'm just ticked I didn't snap up the discounted LG BH-200 SuperBlu player from Crutchfield. It was discounted to around $420, and now it's just discontinued.


----------



## Richierich

Yes I am VERY HAPPY that I bought the LG BH200 for $420 because it does everything that I NEED it to do. I don't need 5.1 analog outs or 7.1 via HDMI but I just wanted something that would play everything nicely in any FORMAT!!!

This is definitely worth $420. I was even thinking of buying another one but I guess that is out the window, Sorry DREW but if you SNOOZE you LOSE!!! LOL!!!

Circuit City has the LG BH200 for $499 so you better jump on it if you want one!!! Also, Best Buy will Price Match Circuit City's $499 if you print it off and take it in to a Best Buy store.


----------



## bobukcat

It's only Profile 1.1, but then I would bet a large portion of Wal-Mart purchasers would never hook it up to an Ethernet jack anyway. It does support 1080P/24 and some of the advanced audio. This should be the beginning of the cheaper players for the lower end consumers:

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1292


----------



## Drew2k

richierich said:


> Yes I am VERY HAPPY that I bought the LG BH200 for $420 because it does everything that I NEED it to do. I don't need 5.1 analog outs or 7.1 via HDMI but I just wanted something that would play everything nicely in any FORMAT!!!
> 
> This is definitely worth $420. I was even thinking of buying another one but I guess that is out the window, Sorry DREW but if you SNOOZE you LOSE!!! LOL!!!
> 
> Circuit City has the LG BH200 for $499 so you better jump on it if you want one!!! Also, Best Buy will Price Match Circuit City's $499 if you print it off and take it in to a Best Buy store.


Sure rub it in!  

Thanks for the CC info - I'll see if I can get to Best Buy later and get a price match.


----------



## Drew2k

Well I picked up the LG BH200 at Circuit City - they had it for $100 more in store than online but price matched themselves. I'm quite impressed with the BH200 - it boots up so much faster than the Toshiba HD-A2, and it was very easy to do a firmware upgrade using a USB thumbdrive. My only complaints are that it doesn't have a chapter search feature (every other player I've had has had this) and it doesn't have instant replay or advance (which the HD-A2 also didn't have). Oh well. I'm still happy.

Now I just have to find a Blu Ray disc that interests me enough to buy it!


----------



## DCSholtis

Congrats Drew, like I said its a fine machine. Enjoy it


----------



## Richierich

Drew I got the BluRay dvd Planet Earth and it is AWESOME as far as PQ & AQ!!! Enjoy your BH200, glad I could point you in the right direction to a great price.


----------



## space86

Star Wars on Blu-ray Disc anytime soon ?


----------



## Bobby H

It's going to be at least another couple of years before we see _Star Wars_ on Blu-ray. I think the only _Star Wars_ related item that will be on Blu-ray anytime soon would be the animated _Clone Wars_ show arriving in theaters during August. BD authoring on that title alone will push back work on any other _Star Wars_ movie.

The Blu-ray version of _Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull_ will demand the attention of plenty of Lucasfilm employees. I'm hoping the other Indy movies will get released on Blu-ray this fall as well.

George Lucas dragged his feet for years, waiting until 2004 to release the original trilogy (with his CGI alterations) onto the DVD format. Part of the strategy was waiting until the DVD format install base was numbering in tens of millions of players. Of course, he was also trying to time the release of those DVDs the right way with the trilogy of prequels too.

I don't know how that previous example with DVD is going to translate to Blu-ray. But I'm pretty certain Lucas is going to want to see at least 20-30 million homes capable of playing Blu-ray before he does anything new with _Star Wars._


----------



## Tom Robertson

Another sign the Blu-ray is still being accepted faster than DVD was: Blu-ray production equipment.

Link:


> Further Positive Trends for Blu-ray - First Acceptance of Blu-ray Dual Layer Line
> June 09, 2008
> 
> Kahl am Main, June 9, 2008 - On the past Friday, the Annual General Meeting of the SINGULUS TECHNOLOGIES AG (SINGULUS) was successfully held in Frankfurt am Main. In particular, the shareholders were informed about the past trends of business, the acquisition in the segment Solar and the new technology Blu-ray. For the latter, it was reported that already orders for 21 Blu-ray dual layer machines were received in the 1st quarter 2008 and that additional orders followed in the 2nd quarter.
> 
> Stefan A. Baustert, Chief Executive Officer of the SINGULUS TECHNOLOGIES AG, comments: "This means that the orders for Blu-ray in the first year of the dual layer technology already by far exceeded the volume at the start of the DVD eleven years ago with 17 machines. It is also very promising that recently the first Dual Layer Blu-ray disc machine was accepted by one of our key customers in the US."
> 
> Overall, the acceptance of Blu-ray is increasing since the decision of the biggest Hollywood studio Warner Bros. in January 2008 to exclusively support this high-definition format. Moreover, the acquisition of the Blu-ray disc activities of Oerlikon Balzers, Switzerland, in the current year strengthens the position of SINGULUS considerably. In the segment Blu-ray disc SINGULUS took over the only European competitor with this acquisition. With respect to the business prospects of the future Blu-ray market the Blu-ray Association already forecasts a significant increase in volumes sold during the 2nd half of 2008.
> 
> In addition, the selling prices for the Blu-ray hardware are expected to be reduced substantially compared with the beginning of 2008. The Hollywood studios have already announced many new titles on Blu-ray discs. These partly also include the BD-Live function. The BD-Live function of "Men in Black" provides brand new, interactive features including a BD-Live game with questions about the movie.


(Note the Post title comes from a Yahoo article that was based upon this press release.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I'm still in the same place I was a couple of years ago, except that I have an HD-DVD player... which is to say, the prices are just too high on the hardware.

I don't care for the interactive stuff, didn't care about it on HD either. What I care about is being able to get an affordable player that doesn't break the bank. The $99 HD-DVD players with 5 free movies, and the $199 HD-DVD player with 10 free movies offers were what got me on board. Had there been similar offers for Blu-ray I'd have jumped there.

I'm not saying anyone is ripping anyone off... I'm just saying I have better places to put my money unless and until the system hardware prices come down some more.


----------



## ajc68

Wal*Mart is having a Blu-ray sale this week. You get a $100 gift card with the purchase of any Blu-ray player, including the new Magnavox that's selling for $298. Additionally, many of the BD titles are on sale for $14.99.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10088473


----------



## Bobby H

> What I care about is being able to get an affordable player that doesn't break the bank. The $99 HD-DVD players with 5 free movies, and the $199 HD-DVD player with 10 free movies offers were what got me on board.


That pricing on HD-DVD was far out of the norm. Toshiba was selling players at a loss, hoping in vain it could bleed the Blu-ray format out of existence. Naturally, that didn't happen since studios like Fox and Disney weren't budging from their exclusive support of Blu-ray.

I think a lot of people believe DVD players have always been dirt cheap. In 1997, the year DVD was introduced, the first generation of DVD players cost $700 and up -and that wasn't even MSRP either. I bought my first DVD player in 1999 and paid over $400 for it. In 2002 I paid $250 for a Pioneer 5-disc DVD changer. The pricing of Blu-ray hardware is going along a trend very similar to that of DVD's early years.

DVD players didn't start becoming truly affordable until the 2000-2001 time frame, 3 to 4 years after the format was introduced. The first Apex branded player was brought to market then. But cheap price wasn't the main thing selling it. The Apex player could be hacked to run region free. And it could play MP3 files and a lot of other stuff.

Right now isn't a good time to buy a Blu-ray player since the Playstation 3 console is the only widely available BD Profile 2.0 device on the market. The Samsung BD-P1500 will be firmware upgraded to BD Profile 2.0 this summer. By the end of summer quite a few new models will have been introduced. I think Hollywood movie studios and electronics companies are going to be focusing on the fall/holiday shopping season to bring out the better pricing deals. The Father's Day promotion at Wal-Mart isn't bad.

Still, quality movie titles sell a new technology more than price. Early adopters are used to paying a heavy premium for a new video format. I believe HD-DVD failed because Universal Studios movies were the only content line truly exclusive to HD-DVD for most of that format's life. Paramount and Dreamworks came on board in the final months only as things were getting desperate for Toshiba. HD-DVD never had a big enough variety of exclusive titles to make the offerings from Blu-ray irrelevant. The format war just continued grinding along no matter how low Toshiba was willing to go with its prices.

The DVD format has its own format war, which slowed sales down to a crawl. Remember DiVX? Studios like Universal, Dreamworks and Fox were lined up behind DiVX and it slowed DVD player and movie disc sales down to nothing. When Circuit City gave up and abandoned DiVX the sales on DVD movies started taking off. Hit movies like _The Matrix_ and _Gladiator_ helped drive DVD out of the high end and into mainstream adoption.


----------



## Christopher Gould

Bobby H said:


> That pricing on HD-DVD was far out of the norm. Toshiba was selling players at a loss, hoping in vain it could bleed the Blu-ray format out of existence. Naturally, that didn't happen since studios like Fox and Disney weren't budging from their exclusive support of Blu-ray.
> 
> I think a lot of people believe DVD players have always been dirt cheap. In 1997, the year DVD was introduced, the first generation of DVD players cost $700 and up -and that wasn't even MSRP either. I bought my first DVD player in 1999 and paid over $400 for it. In 2002 I paid $250 for a Pioneer 5-disc DVD changer. The pricing of Blu-ray hardware is going along a trend very similar to that of DVD's early years.
> 
> DVD players didn't start becoming truly affordable until the 2000-2001 time frame, 3 to 4 years after the format was introduced. The first Apex branded player was brought to market then. But cheap price wasn't the main thing selling it. The Apex player could be hacked to run region free. And it could play MP3 files and a lot of other stuff.
> 
> Right now isn't a good time to buy a Blu-ray player since the Playstation 3 console is the only widely available BD Profile 2.0 device on the market. The Samsung BD-P1500 will be firmware upgraded to BD Profile 2.0 this summer. By the end of summer quite a few new models will have been introduced. I think Hollywood movie studios and electronics companies are going to be focusing on the fall/holiday shopping season to bring out the better pricing deals. The Father's Day promotion at Wal-Mart isn't bad.
> 
> Still, quality movie titles sell a new technology more than price. Early adopters are used to paying a heavy premium for a new video format. I believe HD-DVD failed because Universal Studios movies were the only content line truly exclusive to HD-DVD for most of that format's life. Paramount and Dreamworks came on board in the final months only as things were getting desperate for Toshiba. HD-DVD never had a big enough variety of exclusive titles to make the offerings from Blu-ray irrelevant. The format war just continued grinding along no matter how low Toshiba was willing to go with its prices.
> 
> The DVD format has its own format war, which slowed sales down to a crawl. Remember DiVX? Studios like Universal, Dreamworks and Fox were lined up behind DiVX and it slowed DVD player and movie disc sales down to nothing. When Circuit City gave up and abandoned DiVX the sales on DVD movies started taking off. Hit movies like _The Matrix_ and _Gladiator_ helped drive DVD out of the high end and into mainstream adoption.


well said, i keep reminding people DVD and DVD players did not start out cheap. i even remind them that VCR started out at $1500. this country has no patiences anymore.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Christopher Gould said:


> well said, i keep reminding people DVD and DVD players did not start out cheap. i even remind them that VCR started out at $1500. this country has no patiences anymore.


I think people do have patience... and yes DVD players did start out as more expensive devices... BUT they were not big sellers then either. It wasn't until prices came down significantly that the major penetration of consumers happened. Somehow both HD DVD and Blu ray camps get offended when people bring up cost as a decision factor, but it is a simple truth. There will be no major adoption of Blu ray (just as there wouldn't have been for HD DVD) until there are more significant price cuts on the players.

It is also worth mentioning that we aren't comparing apples to apples here either. DVD's main competition was the VCR. DVD had a major strike against it in the beginning, since you couldn't record onto it... but the no-rewind and enhanced playback/quality of picture won the day for them. No need to upgrade your TV either, just plug and play with a DVD to replace your VCR!

Blu ray (and HD DVD) offers much higher video and audio... BUT to get these you have to buy new HDTVs and audio receivers. So people not only have to buy a Blu ray player but a new HDTV as well... so another dynamic comes into play. It is hard for the average consumer to rationalize having just bought a new $1000 HDTV and then spending $400 on a Blu ray player on top of that.

The early adopters always pay more... but there aren't that many of them. The average consumer doesn't adopt until the prices come down... which is why HDTV sales have only just started taking off. Blu ray hasn't yet been around long enough for that to kick-in... but they face another problem.

DVDs are pretty good quality on HDTVs. They are not as good as Blu ray, but for folks who were watching on old TVs... getting a new HDTV widescreen makes all their old DVDs look instantly better... so unless we are talking a truly spectacular movie experience (like Star Wars, which isn't available on Blu ray incidentally) there's no need to rush out and buy a Blu ray. Comedies aren't funnier, Tragedies aren't sadder... and for people who have invested in large DVD libraries already there just isn't an immediate need to go invest in new equipment yet.

I 100% agree HD is tons better and much more enjoyable... I hardly watch any SD TV anymore and recently downgraded (sidegraded) to Dish Network's HD-only package... but I have about 900+ DVDs in my collection that look quite good on my HDTV. I bought HD DVD because it was very cheap to get into last year. I would do the same if Blu ray hits that level... but until it does, there's no real motivation for me to hurry and buy a Blu ray player now. This is where most of the consumers are sitting... which is why the prices need to come down if Blu ray is to take hold and gain ground on DVD.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I paid $800 for my first--CD player  Best thing I did to my $350 stereo 

I just paid $200 for a Blu-ray player from walmart. We're getting close 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## wakajawaka

Tom Robertson said:


> I paid $800 for my first--CD player  Best thing I did to my $350 stereo
> 
> I just paid $200 for a Blu-ray player from walmart. We're getting close
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


BTW, Best Buy will match the Wal-Mart offer, but it will be a BB gift card. My wife doesn't shop at BB!


----------



## Bobby H

I think comparisons between the early years of DVD and current situation with Blu-ray are more "apples to apples" when the specifics are more closely examined. The assumption is Blu-ray has a much harder time selling itself than DVD did. I don't agree with that.

Blu-ray players have more back-ward compatible capability than most people realize. You don't have to buy thousands of dollars worth of other gear to go with a new player all at once. You'll need a relatively new HDTV to get the best out of the Blu-ray format, but the players will function with most television sets and surround sound systems. That's something a lot of people don't seem to know.

Most Blu-ray players can connect to older 4:3 SD televisions. Most Blu-ray players have S-Video, component and composite connections. They can be set to output 480p in addition to the usual 720p & 1080p HD settings. Playstation 3 can do this as well. All Blu-ray players can play SD DVDs too (and upconvert them). Anyone in need of a replacement DVD player could put that $50-$100 towards a Blu-ray player and get a much more future proofed product.

It's also worth mentioning that there is a pretty large install base of HDTVs already. I don't know the exact number, but it is in the tens of millions. A lot more people own HDTVs than Blu-ray players.

None of Hollywood's studios have chosen to apply the Image Constraint Token to any of the Blu-ray discs. That allows people with older HDTVs that lack HDCP-compliant HDMI connections to still get HD content over component video without it being reduced to 480p.

Most Blu-ray players have optical and/or coaxial audio outputs for connections to older 5.1 surround sound receivers. They also have basic line outs for modest stereo setups and older televisions. Playstation 3 has a basic TV connect package included in the box. It's nice to have a HDMI 1.3a receiver for 7.1 surround in LPCM, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio. But it isn't mandatory. I'm currently getting by with a 9 year old Yamaha receiver, but get Dolby Digital and DTS off Blu-ray at better quality levels than DVD can deliver. I may buy a new 7.1 channel receiver sometime soon.

The DVD format had its own set of challenges in the beginning. Like the players, 5.1 surround sound systems were pretty expensive too. The entry level "home theater in a box" packages weren't available. Lots of people didn't think they could deal with all the speakers, wires and components. But after awhile they learned to accept it for the extra dimensions 5.1 audio offered.

Lots of VHS customers were used to pan and scan movies. They didn't like the vast majority of all DVDs being letterboxed. That was a major point of resistance. Hollywood studios didn't make alternative "full screen" versions of most movies until 2002. Early adopters demanded original aspect ratio. Since they were forking over the bucks to get the format going their feedback was given priority as well.

Blu-ray is still within its early adopter, niche format phase. When the format war with HD-DVD was raging, more credence was given to demands that either format needed to go "mainstream" as soon as possible. That's never really been a good idea. With the format war being over, Blu-ray can gradually ease into the mainstream the way DVD did.

Like early DVD players, early Blu-ray and HD-DVD players had their own limits and sets of technical problems that needed to be solved before people started buying them by the millions.

The prices on Blu-ray players have also needed to be high enough to give electronics stores enough of a profit margin to make it worth carrying these products. A sales clerk earning commission isn't going to make squat off a SD DVD player. It's worthwhile to spend time answering customer questions about Blu-ray. There's more upsell opportunity for accessories and other devices.

I think 2009 will be the year when cheap Blu-ray players arrive. And by that I mean players costing well under $200 or even under $100. 11 Chinese companies have been licensed by the Blu-ray Disc Association to start producing their own BD players in 2009. OTOH, I do think we'll probably see a few $199 deals or maybe even less than that on some Blu-ray players this fall.


----------



## wakajawaka

Nice post Bobby H. 

Case in point, I am enjoying my Blu-Ray player (PS3) on a 2 year old 720p DLP TV with audio through my 7 year old trusty Pioneer using toslink, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. I don't feel I'm lacking anything in quality (even though, technically, I am). When I'm ready, and prices come down, I'll upgrade to a 1080p set and a new AV receiver capable of Dolby/DTS HD audio. But I am in no real hurry due to the backward compatibility of blu-ray.

BTW I'm wondering if we should retire this old thread and start a new Blu-ray in the media/acceptance thread, which is what this has become.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

What does anyone know about combo players?

I've started looking at the LG BH200 and the Samsung BD-UP5000 just to get an idea on things. The rumor (and perhaps announcement as well) mill indicates there may not be any follow-on releases so these may be "it" for the combo standalone players.

I've seen people on AVSForum talking about playback issues for both... and I'm not sure there is any more "noise" on that front than I saw for HD DVD players and for Blu ray players too for that matter... so I'm not sure that indicates much.

I don't care about upconverting, especially since I'll be using component connections anyway. I do have an older audio receiver that will decode DTS and Dolby 6.1 signals, but not the newer TrueHD and such... so the Samsung has a + in that it has analog audio output that I could run into my audio receiver and get some improvement over what I'm currently getting since the HD DVD player I own converts Dolby TrueHD and DD+ down to 5.1 channels.

Anyway, long story short... anyone here have any experience with either of the combo players I noted?

Since I have no interest in a Playstation 3... I'll either wait for player prices to really dive downwards OR consider a combo unit that would replace my HD DVD player. I'd be willing to pay a little more for the convenience of a single player but if I have to deal with multiple units (HD and Blu) then I'm waiting on the fence.


----------



## DCSholtis

Both myself and Drew2k own the LG BH200. Speaking for myself its a damn fine player. I don't have an audio receiver or anything but LG has promised to keep supporting it even though they are getting out of the combo player business (Rumored BH300 has been canceled). So far I've not had any problems with any disc being SD, HD DVD or Blu Ray that I've tossed it's way. The great thing about it is that there are hacks for it in case you happen to have some region locked Blu Rays or SD DVDs from other countries in which you could enable PAL on it. I should add that per the owner's manual on the LG BH200 it is possible via a software upgrade that in the future it can be made profile 2.0 compliant.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1009104


----------



## Stewart Vernon

DCSholtis said:


> Both myself and Drew2k own the LG BH200. Speaking for myself its a damn fine player. I don't have an audio receiver or anything but LG has promised to keep supporting it even though they are getting out of the combo player business (Rumored BH300 has been canceled). So far I've not had any problems with any disc being SD, HD DVD or Blu Ray that I've tossed it's way. The great thing about it is that there are hacks for it in case you happen to have some region locked Blu Rays or SD DVDs from other countries in which you could enable PAL on it. I should add that per the owner's manual on the LG BH200 it is possible via a software upgrade that in the future it can be made profile 2.0 compliant.http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1009104


I just started diving into the combo threads at AVSForum, so I'm sure I'll find a bunch of info there. Thanks for the reply and the info.

I don't care as much for the hacks since I don't have any import DVDs. I do have a few imported HD DVDs, but as those are region free I don't expect any issues there. In many ways the LG sounds like the better option, but then the Samsung has analog audio outputs so that's what leaves me choosing.


----------



## Christopher Gould

the walmart 100 gift card works on the ps3 80gig also. got my 80gig PS3 499.99, 3 BR movies(29.99,29.99 14.99), the PS3 remote 24.99 and plus my 10% discount "employee" for a total of $487.17


----------



## space86

1080p on Blu-ray Disc, I think Transformers on Blu-ray Disc will be a good demo disc.


----------



## jutley

DCSholtis said:


> Both myself and Drew2k own the LG BH200. Speaking for myself its a damn fine player. I don't have an audio receiver or anything but LG has promised to keep supporting it even though they are getting out of the combo player business (Rumored BH300 has been canceled). So far I've not had any problems with any disc being SD, HD DVD or Blu Ray that I've tossed it's way. The great thing about it is that there are hacks for it in case you happen to have some region locked Blu Rays or SD DVDs from other countries in which you could enable PAL on it. I should add that per the owner's manual on the LG BH200 it is possible via a software upgrade that in the future it can be made profile 2.0 compliant.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1009104


I also have the BH200 as well as the Samsung BD-UP5000. Right now the BH200 is my main player since LG added bitstreaming support for it's player first. I would also agree that it is a great player. The BD-UP5000 is also a great player but I haven't tried the bitstreaming on it since the last upgrade. In my opinion both of these players do a great job of upconverting SD DVDs.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

jutley said:


> I also have the BH200 as well as the Samsung BD-UP5000. Right now the BH200 is my main player since LG added bitstreaming support for it's player first.  I would also agree that it is a great player. The BD-UP5000 is also a great player but I haven't tried the bitstreaming on it since the last upgrade. In my opinion both of these players do a great job of upconverting SD DVDs.


Circuit City's sale ended this weekend and now there is a $100 price difference rather than the $50 difference while both were on sale last week. IF I were buying today, that $100 + the analog outputs would probably push me completely into the Samsung.

I'm glad to hear that both companies have released firmware updates fairly recently that have added to the sound decoding and fixed some other bugs. I'm hoping to see the prices come down just a bit more or have a special coupon or something.

Looks like Best Buy doesn't carry the Samsung anymore (can't be found on their Web site) but I suppose it could possibly still be on some store shelves. I'd prefer Best Buy since I'd get bonus points there for the RewardZone... and since they price match, that's my best option unless they truly have stopped carrying it OR I find an incredible online deal.

I also believe I read somewhere that the LG doesn't have COAX audio output, just TOSLink. Is that true? If so, that's another negative to me... because right now I have a jury-rigged scenario with my audio receiver because my HD-A3 doesn't have COAX either for audio... and while that was ok for the "cheap" player on sale, if I plunk down some real money for a combo, I'm going to want to run either COAX or analog not only for the best sound but so I can properly use my audio receiver to swap inputs the way it is meant to do.


----------



## DCSholtis

HDMe said:


> Circuit City's sale ended this weekend and now there is a $100 price difference rather than the $50 difference while both were on sale last week. IF I were buying today, that $100 + the analog outputs would probably push me completely into the Samsung.
> 
> I'm glad to hear that both companies have released firmware updates fairly recently that have added to the sound decoding and fixed some other bugs. I'm hoping to see the prices come down just a bit more or have a special coupon or something.
> 
> Looks like Best Buy doesn't carry the Samsung anymore (can't be found on their Web site) but I suppose it could possibly still be on some store shelves. I'd prefer Best Buy since I'd get bonus points there for the RewardZone... and since they price match, that's my best option unless they truly have stopped carrying it OR I find an incredible online deal.
> 
> I also believe I read somewhere that the LG doesn't have COAX audio output, just TOSLink. Is that true? If so, that's another negative to me... because right now I have a jury-rigged scenario with my audio receiver because my HD-A3 doesn't have COAX either for audio... and while that was ok for the "cheap" player on sale, if I plunk down some real money for a combo, I'm going to want to run either COAX or analog not only for the best sound but so I can properly use my audio receiver to swap inputs the way it is meant to do.


I see its on sale for $479 ($499-$20.00 if purchased using Paypal) with free shipping from CompUSA.com. The LG BH200 that is.

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=58023


----------



## jutley

HDMe said:


> I also believe I read somewhere that the LG doesn't have COAX audio output, just TOSLink. Is that true? If so, that's another negative to me... because right now I have a jury-rigged scenario with my audio receiver because my HD-A3 doesn't have COAX either for audio... and while that was ok for the "cheap" player on sale, if I plunk down some real money for a combo, I'm going to want to run either COAX or analog not only for the best sound but so I can properly use my audio receiver to swap inputs the way it is meant to do.


You can see a PDF of the specs here...you are correct that there is no COAX on the BH200.


----------



## Tom Robertson

> Recent research from Futuresource is said to show that Blu-ray Disc hardware is outstripping early DVD market performance and will continue to do so into the next decade.


Read the full article at: http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/n...ce-blu-ray-outstripping-dvd-performance.phtml

Ten Million BD players at the end of year 3 compared to 1.5 million DVD! Major stuff.

(And, yes I right now have many more BD players than I had DVD players that first year, once I got into the game. And only ever had on LD player, which I still have.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## spartanstew

While that's true Tom, it's not as great as it seems (IMO).

People in general are much more into "home theater" today, then they were when DVD's came out.

Additionally, DVD had a pretty long life cycle. I think the life cycle of Blu Ray will be much shorter and while the number of players purchased is impressive (although many of those may just be game players), the number of discs purchased needs to start going up considerably or Blu Ray might never become mainstream.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

spartanstew said:


> While that's true Tom, it's not as great as it seems (IMO).
> 
> People in general are much more into "home theater" today, then they were when DVD's came out.
> 
> Additionally, DVD had a pretty long life cycle. I think the life cycle of Blu Ray will be much shorter and while the number of players purchased is impressive (although many of those may just be game players), the number of discs purchased needs to start going up considerably or Blu Ray might never become mainstream.


And the disc price needs to come down too. I mean $30 for blu-ray movies at Wal-Mart? Something has got to give!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I also think people are making the wrong comparisons to determine success. Saying that Blu ray is selling faster than DVD in the same time period is misleading. There are more consumers looking for home video today than there were 10+ years ago. Even though I owned one of the early VHS players/recorders back in 1978 buying movies was not common. Renting movies wasn't even common in 1978.

People today are used to having a DVD player in the home... so IF Blu ray doesn't gain faster than DVD did back in the day it would be an abysmal failure as there should be an easier entry point in the market today than 10+ years ago for similar technology.

Basically what I'm saying is that the metric for success is not how well DVD was adopted 10-15 years ago because that pace would put Blu ray out of business today. We may not know what a good pace of adoption would be really until looking back 5-10 years from now at Blu ray... but I can safely say that if Blu ray did not adopt faster than DVD back in the day, Blu ray would be a quick memory of another failed product.

In some ways it would be like comparing today's 10th fastest man with the world record 50 years ago... Today's fastest man has to be much faster than 50 years ago because athletes have improved overall and just being faster than a guy in the past doesn't even get you into the game with today's race.


----------



## RAD

IMHO, selling 10,000,000 of a product like this in 3 years sounds good to me.


----------



## Drew2k

One month after having my first DVD player, I had at least 10 DVDs.

One month after getting a BD player, I still have only one BD movie: Superbad. On sale when I got it, or I wouldn't have gotten it. I agree that the prices need to come down ...


----------



## Sirshagg

With the disc prices the way they are I'll sit this one out. DVD is still perfectly acceptable quality and when I decide it's not I'll try a upconverting player rather than paying $30 a new format disc.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

RAD said:


> IMHO, selling 10,000,000 of a product like this in 3 years sounds good to me.


Not to beat the passed-over equine... but how many of those are PS3? The water is muddy here with PS3 counting in many of the Blu ray player totals because it isn't just a Blu ray... so who knows how many people bought just as a gaming unit and how many Blu ray users only use it part time... whereas anyone who bought a DVD player could only have been using it for playing DVDs.

This is not a Blu-bash.. just reality. The statistics in this case do not tell the whole tale... "what if" there was not a blu ray player in the PS3... how many of those folks would still own a Blu ray player? The world will never know.

As an experienced example... I bought a PS2 but never used it to play DVDs. I tested a DVD in it once to see if it worked to play movies.. but never again played a movie in my PS2 even though I clearly could. Instead, I bought a separate DVD player.

A fair example might be to find how many XBOX 360 owners also bought their HD-DVD addon... Not 100% reliable, but a good way to guage perhaps how many PS3 people might have also bought a Blu ray player if the PS3 didn't have it built-in.


----------



## Tom Robertson

To your point, my PS3 was only purchased to play BDs. Haven't put a single game in it. 

Yes, prices are coming down. Both for players and for discs. We're seeing sales again. DVDs are still a healthy market and BDs are growing.

Walmart had a selection of $15 discs last week; BB is doing fun things with multiple disc purschases. 

No, that ain't the $4 prices you can get for a 2 year old DVD on overrun sales, but it's still pretty good. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RAD

HDMe said:


> Not to beat the passed-over equine... but how many of those are PS3?


IMHO, doesn't matter. Having the BD drive in the PS3 gets the product out there in the hands of folks that might just go spend the $20-$30 on a BD disc every now and then.

BTW, two of those are my PS3's and I don't play games on them


----------



## Nick

I will soon be transitioning to a 65" 1080p display and Blu Ray this year (ideally, _after_
I buy a new home theater room with house attached). Bobby H's post quoted below
has to be one of the most relevant and helpful posts on the subject.

Thanks, Bobby! :up:



Bobby H said:


> I think comparisons between the early years of DVD and current situation with Blu-ray are more "apples to apples" when the specifics are more closely examined. The assumption is Blu-ray has a much harder time selling itself than DVD did. I don't agree with that.
> 
> Blu-ray players have more back-ward compatible capability than most people realize. You don't have to buy thousands of dollars worth of other gear to go with a new player all at once. You'll need a relatively new HDTV to get the best out of the Blu-ray format, but the players will function with most television sets and surround sound systems. That's something a lot of people don't seem to know.
> 
> Most Blu-ray players can connect to older 4:3 SD televisions. Most Blu-ray players have S-Video, component and composite connections. They can be set to output 480p in addition to the usual 720p & 1080p HD settings. Playstation 3 can do this as well. All Blu-ray players can play SD DVDs too (and upconvert them). Anyone in need of a replacement DVD player could put that $50-$100 towards a Blu-ray player and get a much more future proofed product.
> 
> It's also worth mentioning that there is a pretty large install base of HDTVs already. I don't know the exact number, but it is in the tens of millions. A lot more people own HDTVs than Blu-ray players.
> 
> None of Hollywood's studios have chosen to apply the Image Constraint Token to any of the Blu-ray discs. That allows people with older HDTVs that lack HDCP-compliant HDMI connections to still get HD content over component video without it being reduced to 480p.
> 
> Most Blu-ray players have optical and/or coaxial audio outputs for connections to older 5.1 surround sound receivers. They also have basic line outs for modest stereo setups and older televisions. Playstation 3 has a basic TV connect package included in the box. It's nice to have a HDMI 1.3a receiver for 7.1 surround in LPCM, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio. But it isn't mandatory. I'm currently getting by with a 9 year old Yamaha receiver, but get Dolby Digital and DTS off Blu-ray at better quality levels than DVD can deliver. I may buy a new 7.1 channel receiver sometime soon.
> 
> The DVD format had its own set of challenges in the beginning. Like the players, 5.1 surround sound systems were pretty expensive too. The entry level "home theater in a box" packages weren't available. Lots of people didn't think they could deal with all the speakers, wires and components. But after awhile they learned to accept it for the extra dimensions 5.1 audio offered.
> 
> Lots of VHS customers were used to pan and scan movies. They didn't like the vast majority of all DVDs being letterboxed. That was a major point of resistance. Hollywood studios didn't make alternative "full screen" versions of most movies until 2002. Early adopters demanded original aspect ratio. Since they were forking over the bucks to get the format going their feedback was given priority as well.
> 
> Blu-ray is still within its early adopter, niche format phase. When the format war with HD-DVD was raging, more credence was given to demands that either format needed to go "mainstream" as soon as possible. That's never really been a good idea. With the format war being over, Blu-ray can gradually ease into the mainstream the way DVD did.
> 
> Like early DVD players, early Blu-ray and HD-DVD players had their own limits and sets of technical problems that needed to be solved before people started buying them by the millions.
> 
> The prices on Blu-ray players have also needed to be high enough to give electronics stores enough of a profit margin to make it worth carrying these products. A sales clerk earning commission isn't going to make squat off a SD DVD player. It's worthwhile to spend time answering customer questions about Blu-ray. There's more upsell opportunity for accessories and other devices.
> 
> I think 2009 will be the year when cheap Blu-ray players arrive. And by that I mean players costing well under $200 or even under $100. 11 Chinese companies have been licensed by the Blu-ray Disc Association to start producing their own BD players in 2009. OTOH, I do think we'll probably see a few $199 deals or maybe even less than that on some Blu-ray players this fall.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Thanks, Nick. I missed Bobby's great post the first time.

Bobby, that was an awesome, excellent comparison.

Your only mistake  We saw sub $200 prices just last week in Walmart.  Two seasons earlier than your prediction (and before I would have predicted too.) 

BB had a $250 player at the same time. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## toneman

HDMe said:


> I also think people are making the wrong comparisons to determine success. Saying that Blu ray is selling faster than DVD in the same time period is misleading. There are more consumers looking for home video today than there were 10+ years ago. Even though I owned one of the early VHS players/recorders back in 1978 buying movies was not common. Renting movies wasn't even common in 1978.
> 
> People today are used to having a DVD player in the home... so IF Blu ray doesn't gain faster than DVD did back in the day it would be an abysmal failure as there should be an easier entry point in the market today than 10+ years ago for similar technology.
> 
> Basically what I'm saying is that the metric for success is not how well DVD was adopted 10-15 years ago because that pace would put Blu ray out of business today. We may not know what a good pace of adoption would be really until looking back 5-10 years from now at Blu ray... but I can safely say that if Blu ray did not adopt faster than DVD back in the day, Blu ray would be a quick memory of another failed product.
> 
> In some ways it would be like comparing today's 10th fastest man with the world record 50 years ago... Today's fastest man has to be much faster than 50 years ago because athletes have improved overall and just being faster than a guy in the past doesn't even get you into the game with today's race.


You beat me to it...I agree--it's somewhat unfair to compare BD's success at a particular point in time, relative to that of a different format that came out over a decade ago.



RAD said:


> IMHO, selling 10,000,000 of a product like this in 3 years sounds good to me.


True, but I'd be willing to bet that if BD came out back in the 90's (when DVD was first introduced), BD hardware sales wouldn't have come even close to those numbers during the first three years of its existence. To summarize what HDMe said--it's unfair to measure a current product's success against that of another product that was introduced in a previous/different "era".



Bobby H said:


> Most Blu-ray players can connect to older 4:3 SD televisions. Most Blu-ray players have S-Video, component and composite connections. They can be set to output 480p in addition to the usual 720p & 1080p HD settings. Playstation 3 can do this as well. All Blu-ray players can play SD DVDs too (and upconvert them). Anyone in need of a replacement DVD player could put that $50-$100 towards a Blu-ray player and get a much more future proofed product.


Off-topic/tangent, but related to the above--what benefit/advantage is there to be gained by connecting a BD player to a 4:3 SD TV via S-video or composite video, given current BD player prices? I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would consider buying a BD player at today's prices if all they wind up doing is connect it to their non-HDTV via S-video/composite. I'm not BD-bashing...just arguing that it makes no financial sense to pay $300 or more for a BD player if you're not gonna connect it to a HD display.


----------



## dreadlk

I don't know what kind of game Sony is playing, but they are certainly are not encouraging people to buy into BluRay. By now the players should be at $150. that is a price range that would make people buy them. Instead they still have it so that a BlueRay player are just about the same price as a PS3!! 
The knuckleheads are using Blu Ray to build the PS3 Platform, Dont they realize that this is slow growth of the Blu Ray market makes it vulnerable to a future technology coming along and killing blu ray.


----------



## Cholly

Tom Robertson said:


> We saw sub $200 prices just last week in Walmart.
> BB had a $250 player at the same time.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Hmm... I just checked both WalMart and Best Buy sites --- BB's cheapest is $329.99 (Insignia), and WalMart's is $298.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Both were running Father's Day Specials with free $100 gift cards. BB required a $350 BD player, Walmart any BD player. (I learned about them at DBStalk!) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobukcat

HDMe said:


> Not to beat the passed-over equine... but how many of those are PS3? The water is muddy here with PS3 counting in many of the Blu ray player totals because it isn't just a Blu ray... so who knows how many people bought just as a gaming unit and how many Blu ray users only use it part time... whereas anyone who bought a DVD player could only have been using it for playing DVDs.
> 
> This is not a Blu-bash.. just reality. The statistics in this case do not tell the whole tale... "what if" there was not a blu ray player in the PS3... how many of those folks would still own a Blu ray player? The world will never know.
> 
> As an experienced example... I bought a PS2 but never used it to play DVDs. I tested a DVD in it once to see if it worked to play movies.. but never again played a movie in my PS2 even though I clearly could. Instead, I bought a separate DVD player.
> 
> A fair example might be to find how many XBOX 360 owners also bought their HD-DVD addon... Not 100% reliable, but a good way to guage perhaps how many PS3 people might have also bought a Blu ray player if the PS3 didn't have it built-in.


Every single person I know that's bought a PS3 (about 6-8) uses it to watch BD movies on (if only the ones they rent), even the hard-core gamers and I know several others who are thinking about buying one, primarily to play BD movies.

That's all ancedotal of course, but I don't think your comparison to the DVD player in the PS2 holds water. The PS2 was not the "Best" DVD player out there (which can arguably be said about the PS3) and it did not represent a significant value over other DVD players - at least certainly not like the PS3 (which is capable of MUCH more than just games and BD/DVD) does in the BD game.

I understand your consistent position that there isn't enough data to support BD's continued success - but I also think the indicators being used (player sales in relation to DVD at the same stage of the cycle) ARE relevant and appropriate, especially since there isn't much else to go on.

Time will tell, until then - I'll continue to enjoy my BDs (including many rentals via Netflix) and hope it works out long-term. Everyday thousands of people are buying a BD player (mostly in the PS3) and that can't be a bad thing for the format's chances!


----------



## Cholly

dreadlk said:


> I don't know what kind of game Sony is playing, but they are certainly are not encouraging people to buy into BluRay. By now the players should be at $150. that is a price range that would make people buy them. Instead they still have it so that a BlueRay player are just about the same price as a PS3!!
> The knuckleheads are using Blu Ray to build the PS3 Platform, Dont they realize that this is slow growth of the Blu Ray market makes it vulnerable to a future technology coming along and killing blu ray.


How can you justify a Blu-ray player at $150? Blu-ray players are very sophisticated when compared to a conventional DVD player, which is at best an upconverting 480p stereo DVD player and is not capable of native HD playback, Dolby Digital or DTS sound (let alone the new sound formats), and is not microprocessor controlled.

Even comparing the PS/3 to consumer Blu-ray players isn't entirely fair. The PS/3 is a game console that happens to have a Blu-ray player built in. It makes a few compromises as far as connectivity is concerned (If you want to use the digital audio output to a Home Theater receiver, the audio output on the HDMI connector is disabled. The PS/3 comes without a remote - a Bluetooth remote is an aftermarket option. Although a third party infrared remote with a Bluetooth adapter is available, it can't control power on/off. It does not support DTS 7.1 surround. On the other hand, it is fully compatible with the latest Blu-ray profile (BD-Live), which is only now coming to be supported on third generation consumer Blu-ray players, which will retail at considerably higher prices than the PS/3.
The recent promotional deal of a $100 gift card with the sale of a PS/3 brings the price of the unit down to $299, which is a huge bargain. aTo my knowledge, that promotion is now over.


----------



## ajc68

dreadlk said:


> I don't know what kind of game Sony is playing, but they are certainly are not encouraging people to buy into BluRay. By now the players should be at $150. that is a price range that would make people buy them. Instead they still have it so that a BlueRay player are just about the same price as a PS3!!
> The knuckleheads are using Blu Ray to build the PS3 Platform, Dont they realize that this is slow growth of the Blu Ray market makes it vulnerable to a future technology coming along and killing blu ray.


Blu-ray is not suffering from slow growth. It's on the verge of exploding come this holiday season when the prices come down. Thrifty shoppers can even find good deals now. Several of the studios have announced they are expanding production facilities to start pumping out more titles. WB even announced they are going to concentrate less on theatrical releases and more on Blu-ray titles starting immediately. There is no immediate technology that will kill Blu-ray. Don't forget, Blu-ray players can also upscale DVD's, so you don't have to start your collection over (VHS to DVD, Vinyl/Cassette to CD).

Btw, Wal*Mart is finding that people want the more expensive players over the budget players. People know this is a superior technology, and it appears they want the better players to go with it. Once again, the demand is higher than what the factories can produce right now. Once the studios start opening up more production facilities (that's happening as we speak) the players and titles will really start coming out and the prices will fall. This is exactly how it works with all new technology. Blu-ray is doing just fine; you will see that in the months to come.


----------



## Bobby H

I'll apologize in advance for the long post. I just wanted to respond to several comments posted over the last couple of pages.



AlbertZeroK said:


> And the disc price needs to come down too. I mean $30 for blu-ray movies at Wal-Mart? Something has got to give!


Customers have to shop around. I've bought most of my Blu-ray discs off Amazon for under $20. Not all Blu-ray movies at Wal-Mart cost $30 either.

Pricing of Blu-ray discs varies by movie studio. Lionsgate, Warner Bros. and Paramount have a decent number of BD movies available for under $20. Most Disney studio product is going for $23-$25.

Fox is charging the most, and I agree their disc pricing is too high. I'm not paying $29.99 or more for an old catalog title, much less a new release. Fox also tends to charge more for new DVDs as well. I've seen the DVD of _Jumper_ priced between $22.99 and $25.99 at stores in my city. That's not exactly the $10-$15 price so many claim to be the standard for movies on DVD.

One thing I absolutely will not do is buy Blu-ray movies from stores like fye. Those "in the mall" stores often charge full MSRP or even more. If I want a good laugh I'll walk into fye to see the $39.99 pricing on many of their Blu-ray discs.



HDMe said:


> I also think people are making the wrong comparisons to determine success. Saying that Blu ray is selling faster than DVD in the same time period is misleading. There are more consumers looking for home video today than there were 10+ years ago.


Overall, the numbers really don't mean anything since it wouldn't be the end of Blu-ray if the format didn't match every sales feat of DVD along the same time line. Blu-ray has no credible competition anymore.

Because DVD eventually turned into a major success, lots of people are over-stating its importance in the future. DVD has a major flaw. It is not high definition. Even up-converted it is still old world TV.

Blu-ray is not just native high definition. It's the best form of HD that people can play in their homes. It's second only to 2K digital cinema.

Demand for native high definition content is growing. And that's bad news for the old DVD format.

Just look at the negative comments people make about cable channels that are just starting to broadcast in high definition. Some programs are upconverted and cropped, shown in "stretch-o-vision or merely pillar-boxed. Those compromises are noticed by lots of people and ridiculed.

I think Blu-ray players and movies will be among the hottest selling items during this year's fall/holiday shopping season. The February 2009 switch to DTV looms large as well.



toneman said:


> Off-topic/tangent, but related to the above--what benefit/advantage is there to be gained by connecting a BD player to a 4:3 SD TV via S-video or composite video, given current BD player prices?


What benefit is there? You're not throwing away money on an obsolete, standard definition-only technology.

A good quality DVD player with a complete set of outputs (that doesn't delete S-video, optical, etc.) and up-converting capability over HDMI can still cost over $100. Why throw away that much money on a player that you may replace in as little as a few months or perhaps a year?

This is a point Toshiba should have been yelling loudly when they drastically slashed prices on HD-DVD players. At $99 or $199, customers could have been buying an affordable device that played existing DVDs and new HD-DVD discs while being able to connect to new HDTV monitors or old NTSC sets.



dreadlk said:


> I don't know what kind of game Sony is playing, but they are certainly are not encouraging people to buy into BluRay. By now the players should be at $150.


The Blu-ray format is only 2 years old, and is still an arguably high end, luxury product. Those who want to get into any new video format always have to pay a premium.

When the DVD format was 2 years old most players cost between $300 and $500. DVD players didn't dip down below the $150 level until the 2000-2001 time frame, years 3 and 4 of the format.

DVD players have not always been cheap. Unfortunately far too many people out there believe the opposite, which is just plain wrong.



Cholly said:


> It makes a few compromises as far as connectivity is concerned (If you want to use the digital audio output to a Home Theater receiver, the audio output on the HDMI connector is disabled. The PS/3 comes without a remote - a Bluetooth remote is an aftermarket option. Although a third party infrared remote with a Bluetooth adapter is available, it can't control power on/off. It does not support DTS 7.1 surround.


Aside from the remote control issue (which to me is a non-issue), the only limitation the PS3 has on connectivity is lack of bitstream output of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD audio tracks. The PS3 internally decodes each and outputs multi-channel LPCM instead. That's not all that bad a problem since audio quality is being maintained.

Regarding connection to home theater receivers, you make a choice on either sending audio via optical or HDMI. There's no need to send audio over both HDMI and optical connections at the same time. The setting choice is also needed to allow the PS3 to send lossy core audio from Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD tracks if it is connected to an older receiver with standard Dolby Digital or DTS decoders.

The PS3 does support DTS-HD 7.1.

There's a few New Line Cinema titles with DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 tracks that were encoded in a non-standard way causing the PS3 to fold the 7.1 audio on those discs down to 5.1. Warner Bros. says future New Line BDs will be encoded correctly. It's not out of the question for Sony to update the PS3's DTS-HD decoding functions to play 7.1 discs like _Shoot Em Up_ properly.

BTW, the PS3 also supports 7.1 channel Dolby TrueHD and 7.1 channel LPCM audio tracks.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

bobukcat said:


> I understand your consistent position that there isn't enough data to support BD's continued success - but I also think the indicators being used (player sales in relation to DVD at the same stage of the cycle) ARE relevant and appropriate, especially since there isn't much else to go on.


Here's an even better example of what I was trying to convey about comparing Blu ray to DVD in terms of early years' sales...

Minimum wage is $5.75 per hour. In 1986, when I got my first job, I earned minimum wage then at $3.35 per hour.

So... just looking at those numbers, one might say a person making minimum wage today is way ahead of the earnings curve from 22 years ago! But that would be very misleading, given inflation and the increased cost-of living... it is arguable that today's $5.75 per hour is not worth nearly as much as $3.35 per hour back then. I can guarantee, for example, I couldn't work the same job today at current wages because the $4 per gallon gas price would end up taking most of my earnings as compared to the ~$1 per gallon back then.

So it's just not apples to apples when you go back in time that far to make comparisons. Blu ray is absolutely selling better this year than last year and than its first year... and is selling better than HD DVD sold too. But that's about as far as you can take the comparison because Blu ray isn't even outselling DVD players right now... so until it creeps closer to outselling DVD today, it really doesn't matter if it is outselling DVD from 15+ years ago.

I'm pretty sure that in a board meeting discussing sales numbers for the year, no company would feel super-confident just stating that they are outselling an inferior product from 15+ years ago.

Meanwhile... on the pricing front. I've never said Blu ray *should* be cheap yet. I know how business works... I'm just of the opinion that until they become cheaper, they will not gain mass adoption. That's simple supply/demand.

Also, you have to admit it is a bit curious... how there can be a $399 PS3 that includes at least a 40GB hard drive and plays some fairly advanced video games... but you can't get an entry level Blu ray player for significantly less than that.

To help Blu ray adoption, the smart company would keep their $400+ "premium" models and offer an entry level player for $200 that doesn't offer all the bells & whistles but will get folks to buy and start buying movies. Once folks have a Blu ray collection of movies, they will be more likely to buy the "premium" model for their next purchase.. and meanwhile companies get money and get folks buying movies.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe said:


> Here's an even better example of what I was trying to convey about comparing Blu ray to DVD in terms of early years' sales...
> 
> Minimum wage is $5.75 per hour. In 1986, when I got my first job, I earned minimum wage then at $3.35 per hour.
> 
> So... just looking at those numbers, one might say a person making minimum wage today is way ahead of the earnings curve from 22 years ago! But that would be very misleading, given inflation and the increased cost-of living... it is arguable that today's $5.75 per hour is not worth nearly as much as $3.35 per hour back then. I can guarantee, for example, I couldn't work the same job today at current wages because the $4 per gallon gas price would end up taking most of my earnings as compared to the ~$1 per gallon back then.
> 
> So it's just not apples to apples when you go back in time that far to make comparisons. Blu ray is absolutely selling better this year than last year and than its first year... and is selling better than HD DVD sold too. But that's about as far as you can take the comparison because Blu ray isn't even outselling DVD players right now... so until it creeps closer to outselling DVD today, it really doesn't matter if it is outselling DVD from 15+ years ago.
> 
> *I'm pretty sure that in a board meeting discussing sales numbers for the year, no company would feel super-confident just stating that they are outselling an inferior product from 15+ years ago.*
> 
> Meanwhile... on the pricing front. I've never said Blu ray *should* be cheap yet. I know how business works... I'm just of the opinion that until they become cheaper, they will not gain mass adoption. That's simple supply/demand.
> 
> Also, you have to admit it is a bit curious... how there can be a $399 PS3 that includes at least a 40GB hard drive and plays some fairly advanced video games... but you can't get an entry level Blu ray player for significantly less than that.
> 
> To help Blu ray adoption, the smart company would keep their $400+ "premium" models and offer an entry level player for $200 that doesn't offer all the bells & whistles but will get folks to buy and start buying movies. Once folks have a Blu ray collection of movies, they will be more likely to buy the "premium" model for their next purchase.. and meanwhile companies get money and get folks buying movies.


While most of your analysis is sound (and neutral) the highlighted section of the post makes me ask, "are you kidding?" 

EVERY Consumer electronics company would be in CE heaven if they could even come close to the adoption rates that DVD set as the gold standard. Arguably the fastest piece of CE ever adopted, DVD rates were phenomenal. For Blu to be even in the same magnitude at the 3 year point is outstanding!

At CES, before the end of the war, both players and content were selling in the same range as the DVD curve or above. They were very happy. 

Funai (as Manavox, Insignia, etc.) was $200 on special last week. We'll see that price regularly very soon.

As for PS3 pricing, those sales are driven by a different market and demographic (somewhat). The sales volumes allow every component to be as low as you'll ever find. And 40GB drives are only $10-20 at that volume (I think and maybe even less.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jims

I was in Blockbuster and surprised by the number of titles of older movies that are now coming out on Blueray, I do think there is a change in the critical mass going on.


----------



## dfergie

I bought into BD last week with the Fathers days specials... have been a Die Hard Red fan... now I'm a cylon  watching Pearl Harbor now...


----------



## jims

I got the 2 National Treasures for Fathers Day but the kids are now out of school and I am not able to get near the PS3. Tom saying that he only plays Bluerays on his PS3 probably will come to and end when his grandkids wise up to the opportunity that they have


----------



## Tom Robertson

jims said:


> I got the 2 National Treasures for Fathers Day but the kids are now out of school and I am not able to get near the PS3. Tom saying that he only plays Bluerays on his PS3 probably will come to and end when his grandkids wise up to the opportunity that they have


While it has been very, very close a couple times, they are still entertained by their own Wii and Xbox games. 

Now--I have had to give up the TV when they came over to play Wii games at our house instead of theirs... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## DCSholtis

dfergie said:


> I bought into BD last week with the Fathers days specials... have been a Die Hard Red fan... now I'm a cylon  watching Pearl Harbor now...


Still a Die Hard Red here.  Trying to buy up all the HD DVD titles I can to avoid "having to take one for the team" when they hit BD at those high prices. The only titles on BD I'm buying are new titles as I have the ones I want already on HD DVD.


----------



## jims

I mainly rent so the high prices don't effect me and they are starting to come down. Dan it is good to see that you are stay true to who you are though.


----------



## dfergie

DCSholtis said:


> Still a Die Hard Red here.  Trying to buy up all the HD DVD titles I can to avoid "having to take one for the team" when they hit BD at those high prices. The only titles on BD I'm buying are new titles as I have the ones I want already on HD DVD.


Star Trek TOS on the way(thanks to a thread here ) along with Scorpion King and King Kong... ( was ripped off when I bought 2 X-box HD DVD players)... thats why my avatar elsewhere is Col. Tighe...(I'm a ********Cylon)


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> While most of your analysis is sound (and neutral)


Thanks. Even though I do own HD-DVD, I still consider myself mostly neutral since I only bought the HD player because it was practically free.



Tom Robertson said:


> ... the highlighted section of the post makes me ask, "are you kidding?"
> 
> EVERY Consumer electronics company would be in CE heaven if they could even come close to the adoption rates that DVD set as the gold standard. Arguably the fastest piece of CE ever adopted, DVD rates were phenomenal. For Blu to be even in the same magnitude at the 3 year point is outstanding!


I'm not sure if I'm not being clear, or if you (and others) just disagree with me... so I'll try another approach.

Go back in time... to when DVD was just starting... Do you think that companies producing DVD players back in the day would have been "ecstatic" with sales numbers that only slightly outpaced the adoption of VHS videotape in the late 1970s? IF DVD had followed the same curve as VHS, it would have died like Laserdisc basically did. The fact that DVD was able to go way ahead of the VHS adoption curve is why it succeeded.

Now I don't know what the metric is... probably there are some experts in marketing that can come up with target numbers... but just exceeding DVD sales numbers at the same point historically is not going to get it done. IF Blu ray only adopts at that rate, there will still be far far more DVD customers compared to Blu ray than there were VHS to DVD back in the day.

Now don't get me wrong... I'd love for Blu ray to succeed now that it is the only option... but the current pace just isn't getting it done... and yes by sitting on the fence waiting for prices to come down I'm inadvertantly helping to slow adoption down.



Tom Robertson said:


> At CES, before the end of the war, both players and content were selling in the same range as the DVD curve or above. They were very happy.


Now its my turn to ask "are you kidding" 

IF both camps were happy with the sales curve before the end of the war... wonder why HD-DVD threw in the towel? Obviously because the adoption curve was not looking good even if it could eclipse the pace of DVD back in the day.


----------



## Bobby H

HDMe said:


> Minimum wage is $5.75 per hour. In 1986, when I got my first job, I earned minimum wage then at $3.35 per hour.
> 
> So... just looking at those numbers, one might say a person making minimum wage today is way ahead of the earnings curve from 22 years ago! But that would be very misleading, given inflation and the increased cost-of living... it is arguable that today's $5.75 per hour is not worth nearly as much as $3.35 per hour back then.


Although it's an off-putting reality, any new form of consumer electronics, be it Blu-ray, Apple's iPhone or whatever, is not marketed to the minimum wage demographic. Every kind of new computer or electronics device would be a money losing failure if it had to immediately be affordable to the low income crowd.

The argument about minimum wage back in 1986 versus now brings up the point of dollar inflation. That topic can be used to issue a valid argument that Blu-ray player and movie disc prices really aren't nearly as bad as many people think.

The United States dollar has lost a great deal of its value during this decade. The dollar is pegged to gold, which has more than doubled in price just in the last couple of years.

From 1997-1999 it was common to see DVD movies priced between $25 and $30 or even higher than that in a few cases, such as Criterion Collection releases. That's in decade old dollar values. Warner Bros. got aggressive in pricing _The Matrix_ and helped force average new release prices down near the $20 level. Even at 1999 dollar values the $14-$15 Warner Bros. wanted for _The Matrix_ DVD is really more like $22 in today's dollar values.



HDMe said:


> Also, you have to admit it is a bit curious... how there can be a $399 PS3 that includes at least a 40GB hard drive and plays some fairly advanced video games... but you can't get an entry level Blu ray player for significantly less than that.


Playstation 3 consoles are sold for less than what it costs to make them. The same is true for just about any other gaming console made in recent years. Companies like Sony and Microsoft price the hardware at a loss and gamble on recovering that loss in video game sales. Those hefty $60 prices for new XBox360 and PS3 games help do that.

A company like Panasonic gains no other revenue from a standalone Blu-ray player after that piece of hardware is sold. Therefore the player has to be priced at a level where the company can make a profit.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDMe said:


> I'm not sure if I'm not being clear, or if you (and others) just disagree with me... so I'll try another approach.
> 
> Go back in time... to when DVD was just starting... Do you think that companies producing DVD players back in the day would have been "ecstatic" with sales numbers that only slightly outpaced the adoption of VHS videotape in the late 1970s? IF DVD had followed the same curve as VHS, it would have died like Laserdisc basically did. The fact that DVD was able to go way ahead of the VHS adoption curve is why it succeeded.
> 
> Now I don't know what the metric is... probably there are some experts in marketing that can come up with target numbers... but just exceeding DVD sales numbers at the same point historically is not going to get it done. IF Blu ray only adopts at that rate, there will still be far far more DVD customers compared to Blu ray than there were VHS to DVD back in the day.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong... I'd love for Blu ray to succeed now that it is the only option... but the current pace just isn't getting it done... and yes by sitting on the fence waiting for prices to come down I'm inadvertantly helping to slow adoption down.


I see your point--and mostly disagree. 

Historically, early in the life of a new technology, the sales rates are relatively similar each time for all successful technologies. Failing technologies don't ever reach certain critical levels in their first couple years. LD was a middle ground technology in that it had a long, successful life but only as a niche product.

DVDs broke through the normal adoption rates for a successful new technology. Right product, right packaging, right pricing all at the right time.

BD could have been successful with an adoption curve similar to VHS and everyone was expecting such. After all, BD fought a war against HD-DVD and, as has been noted, is not THAT much radically new compared to DVD.

Yet it is being adopted in a sales curve better than DVD for the same time. Much better than any expectation. Very likely because of the PS3 effect, I'm guessing. Had the best and least expensive DVD player on the market been in a game console in year 1 of DVD sales, just image where DVD's would have been. 


> Now its my turn to ask "are you kidding"
> 
> IF both camps were happy with the sales curve before the end of the war... wonder why HD-DVD threw in the towel? Obviously because the adoption curve was not looking good even if it could eclipse the pace of DVD back in the day.


The both camps I meant to say were the player and content camps of Blu-ray. HD-DVD wasn't too happy at CES, just after the Warner announcement. Does that make more sense? 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Bobby H

I think sales of Playstation 3 have been helped by a combination of factors.

Sales of the PS3 would likely be pretty dismal if it didn't have the built in Blu-ray player. Then the console would have just had to live 100% on the virtue of its catalog of gaming titles which has lagged a great deal behind XBox360. The Nintendo Wii is the market darling out of all three next generation gaming console platforms.

Lots of people interested in buying a Blu-ray player have been buying PS3 consoles for all its advantages. For quite some time it was the lowest priced Blu-ray capable device on the market. Unlike most early standalone BD players, the PS3 had a LAN connection (and built in Wi-Fi) and was able to be firmware updated via the Internet. The PS3 is still the only BD Profile 2.0 device currently available. The PS3 does a LOT more than any standalone Blu-ray player. It's really a Swiss Army Knife sort of home entertainment device. I bought my 80GB PS3 mainly to play movies. The various other functions are a nice bonus.

Native 1080p HD video is also a big attraction. It is a major leap above standard definition DVD. If regular DVD was good enough and Blu-ray irrelevant (as some suggest) then HDTV itself would not be going anywhere either. But the HDTV market is growing at a pretty fast pace.

I was in Wal-Mart a couple days ago to buy a few things (and pick up a copy of the new _Men In Black_ BD). A few people were standing around a Sony Bravia TV transfixed by the Blu-ray version of _Cars_. It's an incredible looking BD. Great for demo material.


----------



## FogCutter

dreadlk said:


> I don't know what kind of game Sony is playing, but they are certainly are not encouraging people to buy into BluRay. By now the players should be at $150. that is a price range that would make people buy them. Instead they still have it so that a BlueRay player are just about the same price as a PS3!!
> The knuckleheads are using Blu Ray to build the PS3 Platform, Dont they realize that this is slow growth of the Blu Ray market makes it vulnerable to a future technology coming along and killing blu ray.


I've read that the owners of BluRay have not sold licenses to the Chinese, at least not yet. The Chinese were responsible for the $40 DVD player. If true, really cheap BD players will take a while.


----------



## Jason Nipp

I've never seen licensing slow that down.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> The both camps I meant to say were the player and content camps of Blu-ray. HD-DVD wasn't too happy at CES, just after the Warner announcement. Does that make more sense?


That does make more sense... I actually wondered about that after I posted earlier as I realized there were a couple of ways to interpret what you said.

We can agree to disagree on the other points.

Ultimately, as I said, I would like to see something succeed... and right now that something is Blu ray. I'm just going to be a fence-sitter for a while again... although I am keeping my eye now on the remaining combo players in case there is a clearance sale on the closed-out models... that might allow me entry into the Blu side of things without sacrificing my frosty side


----------



## Bobby H

FogCutter said:


> I've read that the owners of BluRay have not sold licenses to the Chinese, at least not yet.


Actually the Blu-ray Disc Association approved the decision to allow 11 Chinese companies to manufacture and export Blu-ray players starting in 2009.


----------



## toneman

Bobby H said:


> What benefit is there? You're not throwing away money on an obsolete, standard definition-only technology.
> 
> A good quality DVD player with a complete set of outputs (that doesn't delete S-video, optical, etc.) and up-converting capability over HDMI can still cost over $100. Why throw away that much money on a player that you may replace in as little as a few months or perhaps a year?


You're assuming that whoever would contemplate the purchase of a PS3 today doesn't already own a decent-performing DVD player; why would I buy a PS3 for $399 now if all I'm going to do is hook it up to a SD TV and I already own a DVD player, when it could possibly be more advantageous for me from a financial standpoint if I buy a PS3 a year or so from now (or at whatever point in time I choose to buy a HDTV) when odds are it will be offered for less than $399 by then? Now if I didn't already own a DVD player, then your point would be valid...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Every situation and example can be found 

When a piece of equipment dies, I consider replacing it with the latest generation even if it creates some weird configurations. Like an HD DVR on a 13" SD that happens to still work very well. This way I can watch all the channels and it lets the TV perform better than an SD receiver does.

The tough part is the timing. Last year I needed a new DVD player and couldn't wait until the war was over. I discovered the joy of Oppo. Since then, I picked up a PS3 and a few less expensive blu-ray players until Oppo comes out with their Blu-ray player. I can shift equipment around a bit yet, so I don't feel I wasted money on the Upconverting Oppo, nor the profile 1.1 blu players. And the PS3 was the least costly 2.0 player out there, no money wasted there either. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Bobby H

Toneman said:


> You're assuming that whoever would contemplate the purchase of a PS3 today doesn't already own a decent-performing DVD player


I was making a point about people replacing broken DVD players. They do break. From 1999-2007 I bought 3 DVD players, a $400 Sony model, a $250 Pioneer 5-disc model and then a $90 Sony with HDMI output.

Anyway, a malfunctioning DVD player doesn't have to be replaced with yet another DVD player. Blu-ray is an alternaive even if the customer doesn't have a HDTV yet.

On a related topic, it turns out Playstation 3 has certainly helped the Blu-ray format achieve from great adoption rate figures compared to DVD at the same point in its life span (the 2 year mark). According to an article published by Video Business on June 23, Blu-ray player sales have out-paced DVD by 3 times in the United States and more than 6 times in Europe.

Over 133 million standalone DVD players have been sold in the United States since 1997. In 1999, only 5 million DVD players had been sold. More than 15 million Blu-ray players (including PS3) have been sold in the United States since June of 2006.


----------



## space86

Why does my new sony blu-ray player take 5 minutes to load a disc
do I need to update my player or something?


----------



## Drew2k

space86 said:


> Why does my new sony blu-ray player take 5 minutes to load a disc
> do I need to update my player or something?


HD players of either stripe are just notoriously slow to load discs. I upgraded from a Toshiba HD-DVD player to the LG BH200, and load time dropped from 6 minutes to 2 minutes. Some players just take longer than others ...


----------



## Tom Robertson

My personal opinion is too much Java for too little CPU inside these units.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Tom Robertson said:


> My personal opinion is too much Java for too little CPU inside these units.


I'm sure that's part of it. Also, some people fail to take into consideration the size difference in files. DVD is either 4.7GB or 9.4GB depending upon single vs dual layer. HD DVD is either 15 or 30GB... and Blu ray is either 25GB or 50GB.

Those are the capacity differences, and it is needed because HD can be anywhere from 2-6 times the amount of space as a comparable SD movie... so even loading up the title sequences and stuff should take more time.

I agree there can, and will, be some speed enhancements in future players... but am not at all surprised at the slower loading/starting times. Actually, it kind of works out to be convenient since I use that time to go get a drink before sitting down to watch something.


----------



## Bobby H

I think the main issue is many standalone BD players have meager levels of processing power. It just takes them a while to trudge through the BD Java stuff found on a growing number of Blu-ray discs.

This is another reason why I still recommend the PS3 for anyone looking at Blu-ray. I've never seen it take any more than about 5-10 seconds to load a BD movie, even the ones with a lot of Java in them, like _Close Encounters_ or the new _MIB_ disc.


----------



## space86

Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull not coming to blu-ray disc anytime soon http://thedigitalbits.com/


----------



## bdowell

space86 said:


> Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull not coming to blu-ray disc anytime soon http://thedigitalbits.com/


Advantage Blu-ray 

(seriously, the movie was ok at best, and isn't a great loss for now if it doesn't hit Blu-ray soon... now, if you are talking about the original trilogy, or at least the first and third movies in the original triology on Blu-ray than gib plz!)


----------



## Guest

Bobby H said:


> I think the main issue is many standalone BD players have meager levels of processing power. It just takes them a while to trudge through the BD Java stuff found on a growing number of Blu-ray discs.
> 
> This is another reason why I still recommend the PS3 for anyone looking at Blu-ray. I've never seen it take any more than about 5-10 seconds to load a BD movie, even the ones with a lot of Java in them, like _Close Encounters_ or the new _MIB_ disc.


Agreed. I have a PS3 and it only takes seconds to load a movie.


----------



## Bobby H

> Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull not coming to blu-ray disc anytime soon.


That is not confirmed one way or the other. No official announcement from Lucasfilm or Paramount has been made about the possible DVD or Blu-ray releases of _Indy 4_ at this time.

If the Blu-ray for _Indy 4_ turns out to be delayed, I would guess the purpose of the delay would be for work to get finished on a BD box set of all 4 _Indy_ movies.

_Indy 4_ was a decent movie, but not great. I watched it in a good, digital cinema-equipped theater and even there I found the image quality not all that hot. Pretty washed out looking and a bit soft as well. Whenever it arrives on Blu-ray, I'm not going to expect "reference quality" imagery. It won't be a big deal to me if the _Indy 4_ BD is delayed. I may not buy/rent it anyway.

Supposing George Lucas does delay the BD release of _Indy 4_ indefinitely and without any reason, it won't serve as any serious blow to the Blu-ray format at all. Lots of other new, hit movies will be arriving on Blu-ray and driving HDTV and BD player sales. I think _The Dark Knight_, _Iron Man_, _Wall•E_, _Wanted_, _The Incredible Hulk_, _Hellboy II: The Golden Army_ and possibly a couple of other summer releases will make up for any absence of _Indy 4_ on Blu-ray. Factor in aggressive pricing specials as well. Warner Bros. announced a point of sale BD movie rebate program that goes into effect Sept. 1; the program will allow a lot of WB catalog BD titles to be priced well below $20, maybe even below $15. Other studios may have similar promotions this fall.


----------



## BobaBird

rcoleman111 said:


> I have a PS3 and it only takes seconds to load a movie.


Would I be better off with a PS3, or adding a Blu-ray drive to a future HTPC? Would the HTPC version be Profile 2.0 and pass the lossless audio formats over HDMI?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I have both HD DVD and Blu Ray. While I still think HD DVD has been a more solid format to date, BD is catching up capability-wise (finally). I conceded defeat some months ago.

With the new firmware just today for my Panny BD30, the load times are reduced to nearly the same as my Toshiba HD DVD unit.

At this point in time, I think the 2 formats have drawn almost even - of course, thats a moot point since BD is the only survivor of the "war" going forward.

The one other encouraging thing going on is the accelerating inventory of new BD releases starting to surface and scheduled before year end.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Wow, HDTV....... Was your account hacked.......... You sound like a completely different HDTV then I recall on this topic........ :lol:


----------



## Nick

BobaBird said:


> Would I be better off with a PS3, or adding a Blu-ray drive to a future HTPC? Would the HTPC version be Profile 2.0 and pass the lossless audio formats over HDMI?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1648916&postcount=3023


----------



## Bobby H

HDTVfan0001 said:


> While I still think HD DVD has been a more solid format to date, BD is catching up capability-wise (finally).


That comparison is true when you consider differences in player hardware, especially when some companies (Pioneer) are still releasing new BD players without LAN ports.

The software situation was different. Blu-ray had a superior lineup of studio support. I think that's ultimately the factor that decided the contest.

The extra data capacity (50GB vs. 30GB) and higher maximum bandwidths (54Mb/s vs. 36Mb/s) certainly gave Blu-ray the technical edge for higher video bit rates and support of uncompressed or lossless compressed audio. Far more Blu-ray discs have held uncompressed or lossless compressed audio tracks.

Universal's HD-DVD version of _The Mummy_ had lossy Dolby Digital Plus audio tracks. The extra space on the new Blu-ray version allowed Universal to use lossless DTS-HD Master Audio. It appears Universal will use DTS-HD Master Audio on all of its Blu-ray releases. When it comes to previous releases, they'll probably just port the HD-DVD VC-1 video encoding over to Blu-ray.



BobaBird said:


> Would I be better off with a PS3, or adding a Blu-ray drive to a future HTPC?


I depends. If you're wanting something simple, cost effective and works right out of the box then nothing beats Playstation 3 currently. Until the Panasonic DMP-BD50 Blu-ray player finally arrives in stores the PS3 will remain as the only BD Live capable device on the market. The DMP-BD50 retails for double the price of a 40GB PS3.



BobaBird said:


> Would the HTPC version be Profile 2.0 and pass the lossless audio formats over HDMI?


Probably not.

There's more to enabling BD Profile 2.0 on computer systems than what lies in the BD-ROM drive and HDMI-equipped video card or sound card hardware. The playback software for Blu-ray movies also has to support the features. Right now I don't think they do. The current version of Corel Win DVD Plus Blu-ray only supports Profile 1.1. Perhaps a new version will support BD Live. According to the materials on Cyberlink's web site nothing is mentioned about PowerDVD supporting Profile 1.1 or 2.0 functions -it may just be Profile 1.0. The upside to this is that a software update to WinDVD or PowerDVD should be all that's required to get a Blu-ray equipped PC to support BD Live functions.


----------



## Christopher Gould

according to this thread prices are going down on blu-ray titles too.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133279


----------



## space86

Will The Dark Knight be the reference quality Blu-ray of the year ?


----------



## Bobby H

It's a good possibility. Portions of _The Dark Knight_ were filmed in native 15-perf 65mm IMAX format, which is unprecedented for a 2 hour dramatic feature film. So many other movies shown in IMAX in recent years have been mere blow-ups from 35mm.

Another thing in favor of _The Dark Knight_ is the 35mm sourced portions were shot full-frame 4-perf 35mm anamorphic rather than in the often used yet arguably inferior Super35 format (which only uses half the 4/35 film negative).

Ultimately, whoever does the BD authoring for the movie will have to do a great job on it -hopefully a LOT better than the less than impressive BD version of _Batman Begins_.

Other movies will certainly compete hard for that "reference title of the year" thing. I'm sure _Wall•E_ will look fantastic on Blu-ray. _Iron Man_ and a number of others may look outstanding as well.

There is one "dark horse" among the group. A small video distribution company is working on a Blu-ray version of the 1992 art film _Baraka_. The movie is just a collection of lots of different film segments shot all over the world. There's no dramatic narrative. The great thing about _Baraka_ is that all of it was shot in 5-perf 65mm using vintage Todd-AO cameras. The movie looked fantastic when shown in 70mm. If the original 65mm elements of _Baraka_ are transferred to 1080p/24 HD using modern film scanning and digital intermediate methods it should have no problem achieving "reference quality" and be among the very best looking BD discs one can buy. BUT the folks doing the image acquisition and disc authoring have to do the job right. If they DNR it to death like what happened with _Patton_ or take other cost cutting short cuts (like using HD telecine instead) then the resulting disc will be a disappointment. I'm really hoping they do a great job on _Baraka_. I'd love to see it in 70mm again.


----------



## space86

The Dark Knight, is there going to be a third film to make it a Trilogy ?


----------



## photostudent

Don't know if was discussed somewhere else but Sony annonces $299 PS3: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...AD297-0A84-4D6B-8B46-79675F4D1963}&dist=msr_1
I'm getting close...


----------



## Jason Nipp

space86 said:


> The Dark Knight, is there going to be a third film to make it a Trilogy ?


I hope so.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

photostudent said:


> Don't know if was discussed somewhere else but Sony annonces $299 PS3: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...AD297-0A84-4D6B-8B46-79675F4D1963}&dist=msr_1
> I'm getting close...


Um, I see an 80G PS3 price drop to $399, but no $299 PS3.


----------



## Bobby H

Apparently, the new 80GB PS3 model Sony will start selling for $399 is essentially the same as a 40GB model, just with a larger hard drive. I don't think it's going to have the same capabilities as the 80GB PS3 versions currently available (and in very short supply). The current 80GB model has SACD compatibility, 4 USB 2.0 ports instead of just two, software emulation for PS and PS2 games, three flash card slots and SACD compatibility. The new 80GB version won't have any of that.


----------



## jwebb1970

Jason Nipp said:


> I hope so.


There will be a 3rd Batman film.

Christian Bale signed a 3 pic deal (as did, if memory serves, Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman & Gary Oldman).

The only real holdout, so to speak, is director Chris Nolan. He has not signed on for a 3rd go-around, but I imagine it is extremey likley that he'll helm the 3rd film.


----------



## bobukcat

This is good news to Bond fans (like me 



> MGM Home Entertainment has announced the technical specs and special features for the upcoming Blu-ray releases of the James Bond films 'Dr. No', 'Die Another Day', 'Live and Let Die', 'For Your Eyes Only', 'From Russia With Love', and 'Thunderball', due to hit store shelves on October 21st. ) :


More information here:

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1589

I've already pre-ordered the box set with "For Your Eyes Only", "Russia With Love", and "Thunderball" from Amazon, can't wait to see them.

"Die Another Day" on DVD looks AWESOME so they'll have a good benchmark to beat with the BD production of that one.


----------



## Cholly

Over the past week or two, Toshiba has updated the firmware for the HDA2 and HDA3 players.
HDA2 --3.0/T23T HDA3 -- 3.0/1.1

The updates can be downloaded directly to the players via Setup/Maintenance/Update or downloaded to your PC from www.tacp.com and burned to CD.


----------



## Drew2k

Cholly said:


> Over the past week or two, Toshiba has updated the firmware for the HDA2 and HDA3 players.
> HDA2 --3.0/T23T HDA3 -- 3.0/1.1
> 
> The updates can be downloaded directly to the players via Setup/Maintenance/Update or downloaded to your PC from www.tacp.com and burned to CD.


Thanks Cholly! Since I got my LG BH200 I forgot all about updating my HD-A2!


----------



## Steve615

Cholly said:


> Over the past week or two, Toshiba has updated the firmware for the HDA2 and HDA3 players.
> HDA2 --3.0/T23T HDA3 -- 3.0/1.1
> 
> The updates can be downloaded directly to the players via Setup/Maintenance/Update or downloaded to your PC from www.tacp.com and burned to CD.


Thanks for that update indeed.I will have to try and update our HD-A3 later this evening.


----------



## Richierich

Yes, since I got my LG BH200 I haven't used my Toshiba player but I need to hook it up in my upstairs bedroom. Thanks for the info.

Drew, how are you liking your BH200 that I turned you onto pricewise??? Have you recently upgraded the software on it??? Mine is working like a champ.


----------



## machavez00

Cholly said:


> Over the past week or two, Toshiba has updated the firmware for the HDA2 and HDA3 players.
> HDA2 --3.0/T23T HDA3 -- 3.0/1.1
> 
> The updates can be downloaded directly to the players via Setup/Maintenance/Update or downloaded to your PC from www.tacp.com and burned to CD.


I received a disc in the mail from Toshiba.


----------



## Drew2k

richierich said:


> Drew, how are you liking your BH200 that I turned you onto pricewise??? Have you recently upgraded the software on it??? Mine is working like a champ.


I love that it can be upgraded via USB stick - saves a CD or DVD. Only one hitch so far, on the very first BluRay disc I tried to play, I had audio for the menus, but no audio during the movie. I had to cycle through my HDMI switch to get audio to play during the movie. (It was Stargate Continuum, set to the default audio option, which I think is DTS-HD, which my AV system can decode.) Just a bump, but a little frustrating because it took 15 minutes of guessing before I decided to cycle the switch. Other than that, I do love it ... movies load much faster than on the Toshiba HD-A2 ...


----------



## Richierich

Drew, I had an Audio problem and finally saw that the Remote had an Audio Button which lets you cycle thru the various options such as DD5.1, DD2.0, DTS5.1, etc. I really like to use that button to cycle between DD & DTS to see quickly what the differences in sound are particularly on Concert DVDs (I have about 50 of the best Music DVDs available).

Alos, when you get that CD, check to see what software version it is because I have received 2 and they were not the most current as you would get online for a download.


----------



## space86

Anymore HD DVD Firesales?


----------



## CoriBright

space86 said:


> The Dark Knight, is there going to be a third film to make it a Trilogy ?


Yes, Christian Bale signed a three movie contract. It's already up at HSX.com (Hollywood Stock Exchange). I have to admit I made about $14 million profit on TDK. Just a shame it's not real $s.


----------



## DCSholtis

space86 said:


> Anymore HD DVD Firesales?


Hell ya. Just have to know where to look.


----------



## AlbertZeroK

DCSholtis said:


> Hell ya. Just have to know where to look.


inetvideo.com


----------



## DCSholtis

Yes bought a few from them before as well as Amazon UK. Check thebombshelter yahoo group for more links and deal info too.


----------



## koji68

Do you still need to buy your hd-dvd player?

http://www.buy.com/prod/high-defini...ies-included-300-and/q/loc/111/209112684.html


----------



## dave29

koji68 said:


> Do you still need to buy your hd-dvd player?
> 
> http://www.buy.com/prod/high-defini...ies-included-300-and/q/loc/111/209112684.html


wow, thats cheap!!!! and im sure the player is also:lol:


----------



## koji68

I don't know, I read someplace that these are Toshiba players re-branded for the fire sale. I'm tempted. :scratch: What to do? What to do?


----------



## Drew2k

I checked out the product manual at the manufacturer web site (http://www.venturer.com/products.aspx?view=423), and if it had instant replay or advance I would have snapped it up, but even for $60 I don't see much that interests me ...


----------



## Jason Nipp

koji68 said:


> I don't know, I read someplace that these are Toshiba players re-branded for the fire sale. I'm tempted. :scratch: What to do? What to do?


I heard that too, but I also heard that they disable the HD-DVD playback in the firmware. So all you get is a top notch up-converting DVD player. But then again it's all heresay.... I did not see any official press releases on it.


----------



## Cholly

koji68 said:


> I don't know, I read someplace that these are Toshiba players re-branded for the fire sale. I'm tempted. :scratch: What to do? What to do?


They are definitely not Toshiba HDA2 or HDA3 players -- the drive tray is on the wrong side.
My guess is they are indeed Venturers. Had HDDVD succeeded, they probably would also have shown up rebranded for Walmart (possibly as Durabrand) as are many Venturer products


----------



## Drew2k

The brand Venturer is in the zoomable product image on Buy.com, and the model number reveals as weel it is from Venturer. Hence the link I posted above to the Venturer web site!


----------



## space86

Blu-ray preorders up at Amazon.com, for some of the big summer movies.


----------



## Cholly

Another entry in the Blu-ray Disc player field -- Memorex. They are introducing a profile 1.1 player in November at $270 -- more:
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/20..._and_new_line_of_blu-ray_disc_accessories.php


----------



## space86

Is the PS3 still the best blu-ray player?


----------



## Drew2k

space86 said:


> Is the PS3 still the best blu-ray player?


That's a very subjective question. What's the best car? Best sandwich?

Basically, you have to ask what are you looking for? Then you can narrow the choices to find what is best for you.

In my case, I love the LG BH200 because it plays SD, HD-DVD, and BD and is awesome upconverting SD. It also has the potential to be upgraded to BD Live (not confirmed, just potential), but has the drawback that it's discontinued so there's no guarantee it will ever be upgraded. However, for me, this is the perfect player, hence the best player (for me). YMMV.


----------



## HD AV

space86 said:


> Is the PS3 still the best blu-ray player?


I believe it is. Software upgradeable for latest capabilities, stores and plays music, video, pictures, built in WiFi, internet browser. Utilizes the cell processor, one of the most powerful processors available and can double as a computer with the installation of linux OS. Plus it is a gaming console. How many BR players can claim these capabilities and features. Does an excellent job of 1080p/60 or 24fps and is a decent up converter for DVDs. I love mine and initially bought it as a BR player only. Joke was on me. Now I'm a Guitar Hero addict and use the browser quite frequently, like for this forum.


----------



## Cholly

Well, today when my middle grandson turned on my 40 Gig PS3 to play a game, he was greeted by a dark screen. The HDMI video output appears to have gone west. I've tried all the solutions offered on the Sony web site to no avail, so I'm going to have to ship the unit back to Sony for warranty repair or replacement. I've only had it since June 2. I've never run a Blu-ray movie through it, but my grandkids have been playing games on it for some 2 months. 

Update: In the process of trying to get the HDMI output to work, I installed the A/V cable so I could communicate with the PS3, and reset the system to defaults as suggested on Sony's support site, and then tried activating the HDMI output per their instructions, all to no avail.
Along the way, after reactivating network support, I downloaded the latest software update. After the update completed, I tried again to get the HDMI output working, with no success. I resigned myself to having to send the PS3 back, reset to defaults without network access and shut everything down.
Fast forward to today. My oldest grandson turned the TV and PS3 on this morning, and everything worked!! No need for repairs! Oh, joy, oh, frabjous day! :hurah: :jump3: :icon_band :jumpingja :icon_kiff


----------



## Bobby H

The PS3 is still the best overall Blu-ray player.

The major reasons is that it loads movies much faster than any standalone player on the market, even players that cost double or more than the PS3. The gaming console also downloads BD Live content much faster than other Profile 2.0 standalone players on the market. The companies making standalone Blu-ray players really have to get those performance issues solved, especially on the high end models.

One other factor that helps the PS3 is that all the movie studios test their BD releases on the PS3. The recent news of the _Iron Man_ BD disc recall highlighted this advantage. Certain standalone Sony and Samsung BD players couldn't play the disc whereas the PS3 had no problem playing the same defective discs. Hopefully Paramount will have the fixed copies on _Iron Man_ in stores before Tuesday.

The only obvious drawback I see with PS3 is that it doesn't output the undecoded bit streams of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD audio tracks. It internally decodes the audio streams and outputs them as uncompressed multichannel linear PCM. The most recent 2.43 PS3 firmware update added more features to the internal DTS-HD decoder (more modes of support for DTS-ES and DTS 96/24).

Rumors suggest by the time PS3 gets to the 2.50 firmware update a screen shot feature may be added so viewers can take frame grabs and turn them into PS3 wall paper or a variety of other uses.


----------



## NickD

Cholly said:


> Well, today when my middle grandson turned on my 40 Gig PS3 to play a game, he was greeted by a dark screen. The HDMI video output appears to have gone west. I've tried all the solutions offered on the Sony web site to no avail, so I'm going to have to ship the unit back to Sony for warranty repair or replacement. I've only had it since June 2. I've never run a Blu-ray movie through it, but my grandkids have been playing games on it for some 2 months.
> 
> Update: In the process of trying to get the HDMI output to work, I installed the A/V cable so I could communicate with the PS3, and reset the system to defaults as suggested on Sony's support site, and then tried activating the HDMI output per their instructions, all to no avail.
> Along the way, after reactivating network support, I downloaded the latest software update. After the update completed, I tried again to get the HDMI output working, with no success. I resigned myself to having to send the PS3 back, reset to defaults without network access and shut everything down.
> Fast forward to today. My oldest grandson turned the TV and PS3 on this morning, and everything worked!! No need for repairs! Oh, joy, oh, frabjous day! :hurah: :jump3: :icon_band :jumpingja :icon_kiff


Did you try a new cable? My HDMI cable is loose on my PS3 and I need to jiggle it for my receiver to get a signal. Might be worth a try, if you haven't already.


----------



## Cholly

NickD said:


> Did you try a new cable? My HDMI cable is loose on my PS3 and I need to jiggle it for my receiver to get a signal. Might be worth a try, if you haven't already.


Yes, I tried other cables, removing HDMI switch from the path, and still had no luck. Once it came up running again, I reinstalled the switch in the path and all is just fine.


----------



## toneman

Bobby H said:


> TThe only obvious drawback I see with PS3 is that it doesn't output the undecoded bit streams of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD audio tracks. It internally decodes the audio streams and outputs them as uncompressed multichannel linear PCM.


Coming in late to this thread, but...how is the lack of TrueHD/DTS-HD MA bitstreaming capability on the PS3 necessarily a drawback? If anything, the fact that the PS3 can internally decode those HD audio formats instead of bitstreaming them is a benefit for those folks who own receivers that can't decode bitstreamed TrueHD and/or DTS-HD MA but can receive uncompressed multi-channel PCM audio (if connected via HDMI). You do know that there is no discernable difference in audio quality between an uncompressed PCM soundtrack vs. the same soundtrack encoded in TrueHD or DTS-HD MA? All three are loseless audio codecs...so the end result would be that you'd hear no difference in audio quality among them.

Seriously--the only realized benefit one could get from bitstreaming TrueHD/DTS-HD MA to a receiver that can decode either one (vs. having the player internally decode it) is that you get to see the nice fancy "TrueHD" or DTS-HD MA indicator light up on your receiver's display panel.


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## hdtvfan0001

space86 said:


> Is the PS3 still the best blu-ray player?





Bobby H said:


> The PS3 is still the best overall Blu-ray player.


Never was...never will be. Its a *game machine *that happens to play Blu Ray disks.

Granted, Sony had some good foresight to do include a BD disk unit inside, but stats also show that over 70% of PS3 owners are disk renters, not buyers....so Sony won't be making many royalty $$$$ on disks from that device.

In fact, the biggest beneficiary are the Netflix and Blockbuster organizations.

...anf for the PS3 lovers out there...please note that when you place one next to a real player, especially a newer Profile 2.0 unit, the imagery and audio are inferior to the real player. I've now seen 3 of those comparisons in person, and PS3 comes in 2nd every time. I would not have expected more. Again....its a game machine....a very good game machine....but a game machine nonetheless (and a bit too noisy too  ),


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## dettxw

toneman said:


> Seriously--the only realized benefit one could get from bitstreaming TrueHD/DTS-HD MA to a receiver that can decode either one (vs. having the player internally decode it) is that you get to see the nice fancy "TrueHD" or DTS-HD MA indicator light up on your receiver's display panel.


Yep, that's why we bought those fancy receivers. :lol:


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## B Newt

What is the frame rate for the PS3. Where can I find the specs for the PS3 blue ray?


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## Brandon428

I find the PS3 to be the best BD Player unless you want to spend 2,000!:nono2:


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## hdtvfan0001

Saw four different Blu Ray units on sale this weekend at Best Buy....one for $224, the others all under $300. Clearly, the prices continue to drop, and will do so through the holidays as many have forecast.

What's equally good news is that the disks themselves are also starting to be reduced a bit. Once the average new release Blu ray gets to $19.99 or so....they'll be selling as hot as standard DVDs.

Seeing the success of Iron Man on Blu Ray should give the Hollywood folks something to think about going forward....250,000 copies sold the first day alone.


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## smiddy

Has anyone seen the new BluRay player that downloads Netflix? That's an interesting thing, eh?


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## Stuart Sweet

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Saw four different Blu Ray units on sale this weekend at Best Buy....one for $224, the others all under $300. Clearly, the prices continue to drop, and will do so through the holidays as many have forecast.
> 
> What's equally good news is that the disks themselves are also starting to be reduced a bit. Once the average new release Blu ray gets to $19.99 or so....they'll be selling as hot as standard DVDs.
> 
> Seeing the success of Iron Man on Blu Ray should give the Hollywood folks something to think about going forward....250,000 copies sold the first day alone.


Well, I've gone Blu myself now, so I have to hope I have more success with the format than I did with HD-DVD. I've already replaced all the titles I cared about on HD-DVD and now I'm just looking for great deals like the rest of you.

Hopefully we'll see under-$200 deals on players by the holiday season as well.


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## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Never was...never will be. Its a *game machine *that happens to play Blu Ray disks.
> 
> Granted, Sony had some good foresight to do include a BD disk unit inside, but stats also show that over 70% of PS3 owners are disk renters, not buyers....so Sony won't be making many royalty $$$$ on disks from that device.
> 
> In fact, the biggest beneficiary are the Netflix and Blockbuster organizations.
> 
> ...anf for the PS3 lovers out there...please note that when you place one next to a real player, especially a newer Profile 2.0 unit, the imagery and audio are inferior to the real player. I've now seen 3 of those comparisons in person, and PS3 comes in 2nd every time. I would not have expected more. Again....its a game machine....a very good game machine....but a game machine nonetheless (and a bit too noisy too  ),


Care to share a source or sources for those statements?? I ask because everyone I know that owns a PS3 (about 15 or 20 people now) rents AND buys disks for them and just about every one of these people also bought it as a BD player, not for gaming (although most do play games at least occasionally). However, even if the majority are just renters it's still the most popular (in terms of market share) BD player by a long shot so the demand for rentals drives sales of the disks to Blockbuster, Netflix, etc. It would be interesting to know the percentage of the 250K+ copies of Iron Man that are in homes with a PS3 as the player - obviously it has to be the vast majority of them.

I have only seen one place where I could compare a stand alone BD player (Sony, not sure what the model was) to a PS3 on the same display and that was in a Best Buy store. They were connnected to a 42" LCD and I couldn't tell a bit of difference in PQ between them, at least in that setting. The one thing I could tell is that the stand alone player took considerably longer to load the disk. (300 was the movie in question)


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## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Has anyone seen the new BluRay player that downloads Netflix? That's an interesting thing, eh?


Interesting indeed.


Stuart Sweet said:


> Well, I've gone Blu myself now, so I have to hope I have more success with the format than I did with HD-DVD. I've already replaced all the titles I cared about on HD-DVD and now I'm just looking for great deals like the rest of you.


You and I are in the same boat. I still feel HD DVD was better, but have migrated several months ago to the Blu Ray side....or should I say....I also have Blu Ray. Both Players continue to be featured in my Home Theater equipment rack.

Now that Blu Ray (finally) has caught up to where we were last year with HD DVD - via Profile 2.0 - its virtually a draw on the formats.

It is nice to see the Blu Ray disks themselves starting to come down in price, although they are still about $5 on average too high to gain widespread market acceptance to the point that BD gets 15% or more of market share (seen by the industry as a key threshhold milestone). It came close last week at 13% with the release of Iron Man on BD.


bobukcat said:


> Care to share a source or sources for those statements?? I ask because everyone I know that owns a PS3 (about 15 or 20 people now) rents AND buys disks for them and just about every one of these people also bought it as a BD player, not for gaming (although most do play games at least occasionally). However, even if the majority are just renters it's still the most popular (in terms of market share) BD player by a long shot so the demand for rentals drives sales of the disks to Blockbuster, Netflix, etc.


Its been published at least 20 places this year...I visit no less than 15 sites per day on this topic, and its all over the place....several studies done since March 2008 alone (3).

There's nothing whatsoever wrong with the fact that PS3 is a hit with the Blu Ray disk rental crowd...I'm sure Blockbuster and Netflix are very happy about it....but the point is that it is a *distinct* and different market of dedicated player owners, who buy their in much greater numbers than PS3 owners. That's a stat that the Hollywood folks follow, as it drives their revenue more predictively.

As for the pricing....I shop at Amazon, Best Buy (using price matching), Fry's, and even Waltmart to simply get the best prices on BD. It varies as to where that is, depending on the specific title.


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## Tom Robertson

All I can say is my PS3 has never, ever played a game. And I own over 35 BDs right now.  (And never rented a BD either.) 

That said, I also own 2 Magnavox profile 1.0 players, purchased when Walmart was giving $100 gift cards for buying them. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> All I can say is my PS3 has never, ever played a game. And I own over 35 BDs right now.  (And never rented a BD either.)


Tom...we can arrange a private training session if you'd like.... :lol: :lol: :lol: 


> That said, I also own 2 Magnavox profile 1.0 players, purchased when Walmart was giving $100 gift cards for buying them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Good move at those prices. Enjoy!


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## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> All I can say is my PS3 has never, ever played a game.


Tom, you should at least download a free demo or two from the Sony Store just to see what they look like. They've come a long way since the Atari 2600


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## hdtvfan0001

RAD said:


> Tom, you should at least download a free demo or two from the Sony Store just to see what they look like. They've come a long way since the Atari 2600


Its gettin ugly out there.... :lol:

...and just for the record....its Pong v1.0 on the TI 99/4a...


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## RAD

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Its gettin ugly out there.... :lol:
> 
> ...and just for the record....its Pong v1.0 on the TI 99/4a...


I think the Magnavox Odyseey that I had before the 2600 (where you put plastic overlays on your TV) was even before the TI (by almost 10 years). http://www.pong-story.com/odyssey.htm


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## hdtvfan0001

RAD said:


> I think the Magnavox Odyseey that I had before the 2600 (where you put plastic overlays on your TV) was even before the TI (by almost 10 years). http://www.pong-story.com/odyssey.htm


I'm sure Tom will be able to clear all this up....  :lol:


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## Stuart Sweet

Let's get back to topic, please.


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## Brandon428

I have a PS3 and currently have 5 games and 27 BD movies. I have rented a BD movie maybe 3 times. I use my PS3 more as a BD player than a video game player.


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## jazzyd971fm

PS3 system software update 2.50 is now available


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