# Seeking help installing OTA with my 811



## Vandalous (Feb 27, 2004)

Here's hoping that the experts can help me. I've tried searching the forums but can't quite find what I'm looking for. 

Goal: Add OTA HD locals to my 811 setup. I'm between 50-55 miles from the towers and can get about 50-55% signal. With the amp, I'm getting 70-85% signal. 

Here's my current setup:
1 - 811 connected to a Mits 65" RPTV
1 - 501 connected to a Sharp 27"
2 dishes connected to a DP34 switch

Here's what I'm stuck at...

I installed a ChannelMaster Advantage 3018 antenna, ran a cable from it to a JVI 35-SDX100 diplexer U/V ANT port while the cable from the switch runs into the SAT port. The cable plugged into the In/Out port goes into the house and then runs into a wall plate. A cable is connected to the wall-plate and goes into the "In" port of a JVI 20-AMP15 inline amplifier. From the "out" port of the amp, the cable runs to the "in/out" port of a second JVI diplexer (same model). The cable from the "U/V ANT" port goes into the ANT port of the 811 while the cable from "SAT" port goes to the appropriate port of the 811 receiver. 

Here's where it gets odd...

1. It worked perfectly a couple days ago when I installed everything.
2. Today, we lost the signal from 119 & 148. 110 was normal. However, this was only happening on the 811. The 501 was operating normally.
3. When I bypass the diplexer and amplifier and directly connect the sat cable to the appropriate port on the 811, it sees all of the satellites. 

To me, it appears that either my diplexer, amp, or cabling among those parts is bad. Can someone confirm that this is the case?

Did I install everything correctly?

Any help here would be appreciated. I'm trying to get all setup for football and am quite frustrated. 

Thanks!


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

try hooking everything back up the way you had it without bypassing the diplexer and amp. then attach the cable you have hooked up to the 501 to the 811 and see if it sees everything. if it does then you have a bad cable or port. 

does a check switch on the 811 see the dp34 and all attached dishes?


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## Vandalous (Feb 27, 2004)

logray said:


> does a check switch on the 811 see the dp34 and all attached dishes?


Thanks for replying. Swapping that cable doesn't change anything.

As for the check switch, it's another oddity. When I got home today, my wife just did some soft resets on the 811 at the instruction of Dish tech support. I did a hard reset by unplugging the receiver for a couple minutes and then tried a check switch and it only saw the 110. A couple more resets didn't change anything so I swapped the 811 with the 501, bypassed the amp and diplexer, and the check switch came back normally on the 501, seeing the 110, 119, and 148. I put the 811 back in without bypassing anything and this time didn't see any satellites at all after doing a check switch. I bypassed the amp and switch and then ran a check switch on the 811 and saw all 3 satellites. Thus, that's where I am right now: no OTA local HD but have the 110, 119, and 148 feeds.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

For the sake of arguement 119 is the main bird in this equation and the 811 has to have an active visibility to the satellite PIDs in order for the 8VSB OTA tuner to be active. So if you are having a problem with marginal sat outages or the 811 has lost handshake with the switch your OTA will eventually die as well.

First thing you should do is hit sys info and tell us what number is listed in info box b:, then does box g: have a green bar under 119, 110, and 148? What is listed in box h: ? (word for word)

I would start be reconnecting everything as it was then check the above info. Do a power plug 30 second reboot on the 811 then menu 6-1-1 check switch, test switch. Let it relearn the switch matrix just to reassure it has proper handshake. Also if this is a DP34 or DPP44 switch sometimes the switch itself needs to be reset. You can do this by pulling all of the output feeds to your receivers. If it is a DPP44 also pull the power plug. Wait 30 seconds, then hook it back up and power up. You may want to do a check switch on each receiver after you do this.

If all the above is not helpful the next step I would recommend is logray's post. Physically swap the two receivers and see if the problem moves locations or not. If it doesn't you have a good idea at that point your issue is not related to the receiver.

Good luck,


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

The one thing I noticed here that removing the diplexer and amplifier makes the issue go away. I would suspect it is something to do with the diplexer or amplifier configuration. Possible the wrong Diplexer? Maybe the amplifier in the wrong place. Amplifier possible interferring with the switch/power inserter. Any change of seperating the OTA and Dish Dish Signals? I would verify that you have the wright Diplexer/amp configuration. Has this configuration ever worked?

I know.. more questions than answers.  I would do a general search on diplexer and OTA on the board. This might not be an 811 specific issue, but a OTA/diplexer/Sat issue.


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## Vandalous (Feb 27, 2004)

Thanks Jason and Ron! When I get home, I'll try what Jason described.

Ron - I ran a search and did find more details on diplexer setups so it looks like I'm almost right. I'm still not convinced that I installed the amplifier in the right spot. Can someone teach me where an inline amp should be installed? FYI - The antenna is not amplified.

Thanks!


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Place it in line with the antenna on the feed coming from the antenna. Is the a signal amp or a preamp?


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## Vandalous (Feb 27, 2004)

Jason Nipp said:


> Place it in line with the antenna on the feed coming from the antenna. Is the a signal amp or a preamp?


Hi Jason - Sorry, I'm a bit dense on the terminology. In your direction above, should I move the amplifier outside and connect it to the line before it enters the diplexer near the DP34 switch or can I leave it indoors and connect it to the line between the diplexer and the 811? Should it look like:

Antenna--Diplexer--|--Diplexer--Amp--811

I currently have it like:

Antenna--Diplexer--|--Amp--Diplexer--811

Thanks!


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

No, unless the amp is labeled as outdoor, it needs to remain indoors. You might want to move your diplexors. for best performance a preamp should go between the di-plexor and antenna. My preamp is actually approved for outdoor use so it is mounted on my antenna mast, but the power supply is indoors as is my signal amp and distribution amp.


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## Vandalous (Feb 27, 2004)

Heh - this is a very educational thread for those of us who are still learning. So what's the difference between a preamp, a signal amp, and a distribution amp? 

I guess my 15db amp is a preamp. How can I tell?


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Preamps always go outside as close to the antenna as possible. usually mounted ON the antenna pole with as short a cable as possible from the antenna to the preamp. they look like they are meant to go outdoors with coax hookups on the bottom, sturdy plastic to resist wind. they go before the diplexor. (make sure the antenna is hooked up on the DC passthru side othewise your preamp won't work). Also if you are using a diplexor you can't have a power injector for your preamp - it has to get power from the SAT receiver. This has to be a special kind of preamp. Such as the channel master Spartan 3 preamp. If you have a preamp that has a power injector you need to run another cable in addition to the satellite cable straight from the antenna to the receiver (with the preamp/etc.). preamps are needed for long cable runs, and can in some cases make unusable signals usable, but are mostly used if you have a lot of cable inbetween the antenna and the receiver. diplexor compatible preamps w/diplexor look like this (the antenna and sat are connected to the same diplexor below) with the tripple dashed lines "---" representing a coaxial cable, preferrably RG6 or RG6QS:

antenna---preamp---diplexor---diplexor---receiver
sat---diplexor---diplexor---dp34---receiver

preamps that cannot work with diplexors that have power injectors look like this:

antenna---preamp---power injector---receiver

distribution amps go inside your house after the diplexor and before you feed it to other receivers. distribution amps boost a weak signal or boost a signal that is split to multiple receivers, but if the signal is not usable in the first place, then a distribution amp will only make noise more noiser. (the antenna and sat are connected to the same diplexor below)

antenna---diplexor---diplexor---distribution amp---receiver(s)
sat---diplexor---diplexor---dp34---receiver

if you have a long cable run it can be more complex with a Satellite receiver powered "diplexor compatible" preamp in there.

antenna---preamp---diplexor---diplexor---distribution amp---receiver(s)

and non-diplexor compatible preamps can look like this (with a dedicated cable for the antenna)

antenna---preamp---power injector---distribution amp---receiver

signal amps boost the signal similar to a distribution amp, but typically only amplify one input to one output (for one receiver). they look like this (the antenna and sat are connected to the same diplexor below):

antenna---diplexor---diplexor---(1) signal amp---(1) receiver
sat---diplexor---diplexor---dp34---receiver

If your amp is a preamp, it will usually have a power injector that goes indoors (simple box with two connectors and a power cord) and the amp mounted on the antenna mast as close to the antenna as possible (another box with connections to antenna, other connector goes to power injector). 

If you have a distribution amp or a signal amp it will just be one unit with an input for the antenna and output(s) on the same unit. They go indoors.

Diplexors always reduce signal strength and are usually put in when installers are lazy/customer insists on having only one cable going into their house/etc. Straight cable runs from the antenna to the receiver is always best (and dist amps/preamps in the middle if you need them). Remember you only need a diplexor if you only have one cable from your sat dish and you want to share that cable with an antenna. If you can run a direct cable from the antenna to the receiver that is always the best option.

Confused yet?

Also, as Jason and Ron pointed out, why not head over to the OTA forum on DBSTalk for this info? - there's lots of people there that can answer these questions perhaps better than me even.

Give us some brands and models of preamps, diplexors, amps, etc. and we will be able to give you more specific information how things should be hooked up.


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## Vandalous (Feb 27, 2004)

Wow, thanks for the detail, logray. I really am not sure what I have, whether it's a signal amp or a power inserter (?). In my first post, I put in the model numbers of the diplexors and amp (all JVI).

Jason - here's what the sysinfo gave me when I bypassed the diplexor and amp near my receiver:

b: 18
g: green on all 3 sats
h: DP-34-500, Twin-2(1), Twin-1(2), Dual-1(3)

When I connected everything back up to the way it was the last time everything worked (3 days ago), here's what I got:

FYI: here's the physical layout... antenna--diplexor--|wall|--amp--diplexor--811

b: 18
g: red "X" boxes on all 3 sats
h: DP34-500, Twin-2(1), Twin-1(2), Dual-1(3)

I tried the power reset and still got the same result. 

Running a dedicated cable for the antenna is not an option for me at this time so I'm stuck with using diplexors. The antenna does have a little box where the RG6 is connected and is encapsulated by a plastic sheath but it is not connected to any power source. From the antenna, the RG6 goes into a diplexor, which is also connected to a DP34 switch for the sat. An RG6 runs from the diplexor, into the house, and emerges into a wall plate. From the wall-plate, the cable goes into the amp and then goes into the diplexor. The diplexor ostensibly creates 2 signals and then both are carried down their respective cables to the SAT or ANT port on the receiver.

Still poking away at this, though I've identified a workaround. With the antenna and diplexor connected, I'm getting good signal from my OTA and Dish HD feeds. So, during football games, I'll plug the stuff in and pull in the requisite football feeds during the day and on ESPN HD at night on Sunday and then MNF on Monday. After football, I go back bypassing the diplexor and amp so that HGTV and Kim Possible are available for the fam. Repeat every week until we can figure out how to fix this issue.

Thanks so much for all the info, all. I really appreciate the help as I am not tech savvy at all when it comes to satellite stuff. Me = computer geek. ^_^

Edit 8/26: Fixed the diagram since I mistakenly added the DP34 into it.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Are you running a diplexed antenna/sat feed into an input of the DP34?


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## Vandalous (Feb 27, 2004)

Jason Nipp said:


> Are you running a diplexed antenna/sat feed into an input of the DP34?


No. The feed from the sat goes into the DP34. I attached the diplexor after the DP34 into the 811 cable run.

Oops, just noticed that I diagrammed it incorrectly in a previous post. Sorry about that. It should be:

Antenna--Diplexor--|wall|--Amp--Diplexor--Receiver
Dish--DP34--Diplexor--|wall|--Amp--Diplexor--Receiver

When I move the amp to go between the diplexor and receiver, my OTA signal strength drops from 80's to 40's. The 40-50 range is the same strength as if I didn't have an amp at all.

FYI - the runs are not very long, probably 50 ft max.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

You should not diplex into a DP34....

Here is a vague and bad hand drawing on how I believe you should be connected.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Your non-working setup today:

Antenna--Diplexor--|wall|--Amp--Diplexor--Receiver
Dish--DP34--Diplexor--|wall|--Amp--Diplexor--Receiver

With your inline amp having satellite and uhf/vhf combined and the VHF/UHF frequencies being amplified and add to that 18v for the sat and all the noise generated from that, it's amazing it worked when you first hooked it up. The amp is not supposed to go in between the wall and diplexer before it goes to the 811.

Jason's drawing is close to how you have it. You probably have the amplifier next to the 811. In your situation the amp should go in between the diplexer and the 811 in his drawing, but if you don't see any signal boost, then you need to amplify the signal BEFORE it gets to the diplexer. At that point the amp needs to go between the antenna and diplexer like Jason has it drawn out. You probably can't do this though since you don't have a power outlet on the roof for the JVC amp and it's not meant to go outdoors. Just for kicks you might want to try that using a long power extension cord. 

You probably have a bad or damaged diplexor or improperly connected diplexor near your 811. Another possibility is that the diplexor closest to your 811 could be reducing the signal enough to where your 15db amplifier can't make up the difference (and give additional gain above that to where you have a usable signal). What kind of antenna do you have for 50-55 miles away from xmitters?

In the end, you might even need a diplexer compatible preamp such as the CM Spartan 3 (with dc pass style diplexers) in addition to your jvc signal amp to overcome the loss incurred by the diplexer and 55 miles away from xmitters.

It might be cheaper and easier just to run another cable from the roof!


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## Vandalous (Feb 27, 2004)

Thanks for the help, gents! Jason, that's a great sketch and very clear. 

Here's what I have for next steps:
1. Move the amp in between the antenna & the outside diplexer.
2. Replace all of the diplexers.
3. Change amp.

I'll post an update once these things are done. Thanks again! Y'all are awesome...


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

From the OTA forum:

You are losing a lot of signal by diplexing your OTA with the satellite.

Can you run a piece of RG-6 directly from the antenna to your OTA antenna input on the 811? It's only one more hole in the wall, no really the best setup is Antenna-preamp-----power injector for preamp-tuner.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Jim5506 said:


> ...You are losing a lot of signal by diplexing your OTA with the satellite.


As I mentioned before, diplexers really do reduce the signal a lot - just take a look what happens when you bypass it - you actually get a usable signal!. You could compensate for using diplexors by adding a preamp, a more powerful dist. amp, and a larger antenna but that would be a waste of money compared to the cost of drilling one more hole in the wall and running one more cable straight to the antenna you've already got - as pointed out by the folks in the OTA forum.


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