# General discussion of 921 OTA guide issues soon to be enabled



## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_Note- Mark, if this thread is inappropriate here please feel free to move it. I really hope that the discussion will center around the 921's soon to be released feature and what I am saying may have bearing on some issues that WILL be a problem when OTA guides come out on the 921._

Jsanders-

_"If you record "City Council Meeting", say, on a weekly basis, do you consistenly get "This old house"?"_

No. Let me state that the Digital channels guides are not a priority at this time for many stations. I don't even know if they are even handled separately as a procedure at the stations. Additionally, I'm not sure if the TIVO and VOOM services differentiate between the OTA analog channel guide and the digital channel guide. It is not surprising how many people assume that the two channels are in lock step simulcast with one another. As soon as there is a difference, if the OTA guide services are not equipped to differentiate between the two or more channels, errors will happen. I have observed that with TIVO the guides are stated for all four channels programs listings but a huge problem is obvious to anyone who is aware of broadcast limits. i.e. it is impossible to schedule two HDTV programs and two SD programs on the 4 PBS affiliate subchannels the way it appears on the TIVO OTA guide. Therefore it should be obvious there is an error right there.

In addition, there are no loop tapes as you suspect is running, much like the loop servers in use on certain "demo" channels you are familiar with. What I suspect, knowing what I do about how small TV stations work, is that the scheduler the one who makes up the schedules and sends them out is not coordinated with the one who actually operates master control and juggles the 4 subchannels' programming. All this stuff is very new to stations and often they do not get the proper training to deal with the new technology. As the public relies more and more on EPG as opposed to Newspaper and printed guides, and as the public relies more on the digital channels, we will see these problems get corrected automatically.

My whole purpose here is to make everyone aware that just because the 921 gets OTA guides that it may not be the fault of E* or the 921 when the guide fails to perform accurately WRT the data. Plus, I suspect it will be very difficult to determine if there is a problem that is caused by a 921 issue as opposed to a station or E* issue.

Heck, you may recall last summer when the PSIP standard was adopted by the 921 and it took quite a bit of time on my part with tests at the station to determine this was the cause of OTA stations no longer locking in the 921. In this case the 921 was doing it right but the stations had it wrong. Correcting the PSIP tables and, or adding PSIP fixed data corrected the issue not only with the 921 but many other receivers as well. OTA guides will be a similar problem. If the FCC will not regulate them, we will just have to wait until public pressure forces the stations to give greater consideration to the importance.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Hey DonLandis,

That is a good explanation of things, thanks! The scenario you mentioned with PBS sounds like the station is at fault, and not any guide service providers.

It is interesting that PBS does four sub channels during the day (in my area at least as well), and then an HD channel during prime time. They are really trying to take advantage of this new technology, you would have expected them to be a little more prepared when it comes to tying up the loose ends. You're right, it is going to take time.

I wonder if my local PBS station transmits an accurate guide, or if I will have the same problems. Time will tell.....


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I have no problem at all with this being here, Don. Thanks for posting it.

When we're getting close to release, I'll post some guidelines and some things to check before posting bug reports about the guide data. By then, I will know very well how it works, what the source of the data is, and what problems we're likely to encounter with it.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I have no problem at all with this being here, Don. Thanks for posting it.


No problem with it? Wow, a statement like that makes it sound like the two planets have indeed aligned!

That also makes it sound like the problem is with his local station.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Yes, I felt if I could just figure out how to explain it right you'd see it that way too. 

One thing is certain- the digital broadcast world is far more complicated than the analog broadcast I did back in my younger days. Everybody is on the cutting edge, no schools to learn it, and YOYO most of the time. 

I will make it a new mission to learn more about the Voom and TIVO guide chain of command so to speak so when issues surface I can at least see if those issues are also present on the other receiver's side of things.


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## markcollins (Jan 27, 2004)

I just want to say thanks to you Don for keeping us novices up to speed on what is happening or could happen with our dish hardware.Kudos to you too Mark,I know you have a tough job.I'm putting my faith that dish will straighten it out.I just bought another 921 for my entertainment room.Figure the $1000.00 investment a year ago and the $525.00 now averages out to $750.00 a box.Hey gotta think positive.The law of diminishing returns.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Don, thanks for the info. I feel better prepared for the future feature.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Digital guide data is an interesting beast, because it can come from many different sources. Until the complete digital switchover happens, I think that it probably will be a constant source of frustration for everyone.

That said, the major networks' guide data should almost never be in error at least in primetime because the major networks almost always show exactly the same programming on their analog and digital channels. Not always, but almost always. As Don has said, the smaller local channels, the PBS channels and other subchannels of the major networks are much more problematic because they don't always show the same programming as the analog equivalents. PBS is at least moving in that direction, with the new rules in place stating that the main subchannel of the PBS digital stations must be simulcasting the same programming as the analog channel 12 hours a day. That leaves the other 12 hours of difference, though. And then there's the 2, 3 or 4 other subchannels on the PBS feeds that aren't covered. 

So, especially for the smaller channels and for PBS, I think that we're going to be facing some guide errors for the foreseeable future. I think that it's going to be up to the content distributors (Dish, Directv, Cable) to put the pressure on the guide data suppliers, who in turn are going to have to put the pressure on the local stations to provide valid information. 

And, after all of that rambling, I will tell you that any guide data that Dish provides is not coming directly from the PSIP data stream. All data will come from the data supplier. And, I do not believe that the guide data is just directly copied over from the analog equivalent local channels (I still have to confirm this).


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## ctdish (Apr 9, 2004)

Presumably the markets supported by the guide in the 811 will also be available to the 921. Is there anywhere to find out which markets the guide covers or which are not covered?
John


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"And, after all of that rambling, I will tell you that any guide data that Dish provides is not coming directly from the PSIP data stream."_

Well, thank God for that, Mark. If it did, I submit that it will be blank for just about the entire country. 

What E* needs to do is add a priority statement in their software that issues a logic decision:

If PSIP guide data then use it. If no PSIP guide data present then use Dish Net's service info.

If they can build this into each channel then we stand a better chance of having accurate info from the stations.

Unfortunately, on the practical side of this, stations using the voluntary part of PSIP to publish their program guides will be very few. Heck, many of them are having enough problems setting the clock and channel number right. 

Mark- I haven't looked up the 12 hour rule. Does it state that the primary sub you mentiond be the -1 ? Some upconverters don't permit the primary non- 480i to be on -1 as it is reserved for 480i only. Of course I suppose it could be redirected in the PSIP mapping tables. That's how it was handled at one station here.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Don - not sure what you are referring to with "the 12 hour rule". All of the stations here in Denver have the primary HD channel on the -1 subchannel. The few that have additional channels are all -2, -3, -4 etc.


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## 4HiMarks (Jan 21, 2004)

Mark - You brought up the 12 hour rule:

"the main subchannel of the PBS digital stations must be simulcasting the same programming as the analog channel 12 hours a day." 

Also, here in the DC area, one of our PBS stations (WMPT 22 out of Annapolis) has no content at all on sub-channel 1. They broadcast exclusively on subchannels 2,3,4,5, and 6 (when they broadcast anything). My antenna isn't aimed towards Annapolis however; I can't get any of them very well, so I don't know which one is the HD. 

There are some other quirks with Balt./DC channels too. I get what I want to see though, so I don't worry about it.

-Chris


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Ah. I believe the rule is that the simulcast has to happen on their "main" subchannel, whichever one that is. In Denver, both PBS's main subchannels are on -1.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Mark do you have a reference source on this ruling? Is it a network thing or FCC Regulation. I'm guessing network as I have never heard of this one.

Also, depending on the equipment used, -1 may be restricted to 480i only. Of course a digital -2 channel for HDTV could always be mapped to a -1 virtual channel using the PSIP tables. This is what at least one station I know of is doing here.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I don't have a reference source, other than the CE at our main PBS station in Denver telling us about it 6 months ago, or so. I believe that he said that it was in fact FCC regs forcing them to make the change. That's why we only get 12 hours a day now of PBS-HD, with the other 12 hours being 480i digital simulcast of their analog channel.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Since you sounded pretty sure I decided to look it up-
_
Section 73.624(f) of the Commission's rules requires DTV licensees to
simulcast 50% of the video programming of their analog channel on their DTV channel by April 1, 2003.
This requirement increases to a 75% simulcast requirement on April 1, 2004, and a 100% requirement on
April 1, 2005.2 The simulcasting requirement was intended to ensure that consumers enjoy continuity of
free over-the-air video programming service when analog spectrum is reclaimed at the end of the
transition. The Commission stated that it may be difficult to terminate analog broadcast service if
broadcasters show programs on their analog channels that are not available on their digital channel. _

I am still looking to see if PBS is exempt. As you know their rules seem to be special from the rest of the broadcast world.  ?


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## robhendricks (Aug 10, 2004)

In Chicago, WTTW or PBS broadcasts PBS-HD on subchannel 1 or 011-01. The digital simulcast of regular PBS is done on subchannel 2 or 011-02. From what I've seen, this is consistant 24 hours a day.


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