# DBSTalk First Look: HR21-700



## Earl Bonovich

DBSTalk is continuing with their First Look Series...

This time: The HR21-700

This review was compiled by a few individuals that participated in the field trials of the HR21-700...

So thank you to:
HDTVFan001 and Drew2k (the primary authors of the review)

Also thanks go out to:
RobertE; RunnerFL; houskamp; Groundhog45; tFederov; Tom Robertson; Jeremy W; Sixto; LameLefty

Also thanks to all the other field testers (who can now add the HR21-700 to their signature lines)... who assisted in the review and actively participated in the field trials.

So... Here is the review... In PDF form.

DBSTalk's First Look: HR21-700 (1mb Download)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Great work guys!!


----------



## Doug Brott

Very nice work guys .. Thanks!


----------



## smiddy

Here here! :goodjob:

Way to go, nicely done!


----------



## say-what

Excellent job on the First Look. It's been fun working to get the HR21 ready for use.


----------



## tfederov

Very cool! I like the format too!


----------



## Vinny

WOW....

You guys did a great job putting the "First Look" document together. I'm sure all that read it will appreciate all the work that went into the writing of the document.

Thanks for your hard work!

Vinny


----------



## mhayes70

Very nice job guys. Looks great!


----------



## Herdfan

:biggthump 

That is a very nice writeup. Kudo's to HDTVFan001 and Drew2k. Very nice job guys.


----------



## LameLefty

Well done, gentlemen!  :up: :goodjob:


----------



## Trump_01

It's shiney!
All in all great work guys, made for a nice read


----------



## Thaedron

Awesome! Now to get my hands on one...


----------



## Canis Lupus

Great work guys and that Gloss Black is Wack!

Nice job on the review doc.


----------



## Koz

Very nice job, fellas.


----------



## drx792

excellent job guys!!

..............now wouldnt it be funny if this got a CE before hundrednation got their next one :lol:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

good job!! i'm jealous!


----------



## SouthernBelle

OOHHHH!! AAHHHH!!! It's purdy!!! Nicely done.


----------



## Chris Blount

Excellent first look and thanks!

I would also like to send a special thanks to all field testers. A lot has gone on behind the scenes by DBSTalk members and DirecTV to get this receiver working and ready for public consumption. Kudos to all!


----------



## NOLAmitch

Thanks for the great write up on the new HR21.

This may not be the correct forum, but this does relate to the HR21. I waiting at home as I type this message for the delivery and installation of my new HR2? receiver. I've had a HR10-250 for since they first came out, and I've upgrade it to a 750GB hard-disk, and enabled many blocked features... but I digress.

My question is, do I know which receive I will get? I'm hoping for an HR20, as I have an OTA antenna installed which I used with the HR10-250. On top of that, there are quite a few digital / HD local channels which are available OTA, but not from D*TV. It seems that perhaps the HR21 has not be released yet, but will be released later this month. If that is the case, that's a good thing in my book.

Thanks,
Mitch


----------



## Earl Bonovich

You most likely will receive the HR20... as the HR21 is just now starting to enter the distribution chain.


----------



## say-what

NOLAmitch said:


> Thanks for the great write up on the new HR21.
> 
> This may not be the correct forum, but this does relate to the HR21. I waiting at home as I type this message for the delivery and installation of my new HR2? receiver. I've had a HR10-250 for since they first came out, and I've upgrade it to a 750GB hard-disk, and enabled many blocked features... but I digress.
> 
> My question is, do I know which receive I will get? I'm hoping for an HR20, as I have an OTA antenna installed which I used with the HR10-250. On top of that, there are quite a few digital / HD local channel with are available OTA, but not from D*TV. It seems that perhaps the HR21 has not be released yet, but will be released later this month. If that is the case, that's a good thing in my book.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mitch


Considering that retailers are only taking pre-orders, I'd suspect you'd get an HR20. You should be able to check your work order online at directv.com.


----------



## kevinturcotte

So when will I be able to call and order a Silver one?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Great job guys! Looks great!


----------



## Tmax88

No over-the air-input......


----------



## kevinturcotte

Tmax88 said:


> No over-the air-input......


I don't understand that either. How much can an OTA tuner REALLY cost? And this isn't one of their regular little cheap receivers, this is supposed to be their "Top of the Line" High Definition DVR.


----------



## Groundhog45

drx792 said:


> excellent job guys!!
> 
> ..............now wouldnt it be funny if this got a CE before hundrednation got their next one :lol:


That may happen soon. 

Now I wonder how long it will take for other sites to link to this.


----------



## RobertE

Nice work on the First Look guys!


----------



## xarxa

Any idea of a price for the HR21? Is it going to be the same $299 standard cost, or will it be cheaper considering that it does not have any OTA capabilities? My parents have D* and live in a rural area with no OTA reception so this is a great fit for them - especially at a reasonable cost.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

kturcotte said:


> I don't understand that either. How much can an OTA tuner REALLY cost? And this isn't one of their regular little cheap receivers, this is supposed to be their "Top of the Line" High Definition DVR.


There will continue to be both the HR20 and HR21 models.

For those who don't want or need OTA, they'll go with the HR21 HD DVR.

For those who "need" or want OTA, they'll go with the HR20 HD DVR.

This is consistent with what they've done in the H21 and H20 HD receiver lines.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

xarxa said:


> Any idea of a price for the HR21? Is it going to be the same $299 standard cost, or will it be cheaper considering that it does not have any OTA capabilities? My parents have D* and live in a rural area with no OTA reception so this is a great fit for them - especially at a reasonable cost.


Same cost model as the HR20.


----------



## RobertE

kturcotte said:


> I don't understand that either. How much can an OTA tuner REALLY cost? And this isn't one of their regular little cheap receivers, this is supposed to be their "Top of the Line" High Definition DVR.


If it had OTA tuners, it would be a HR20. Every little bit saved $$$ wise on the box goes to the bottom line.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

The only thing I would change in the pdf is that the network chipset is a switch, not a pass through. So it is an ethernet port and can be a passive connection and the other port be used as an uplink. It should not matter which one is used for what.

Attached is a simple diagram of how an HR20 can hook up to a HR21 then to the router.

Nice and clean document, easy to follow, and well done!

EDIT
This should be changed from:
It should not matter which one is used for what.
to:
Port 1 should be the port that gets assigned a static or given the DHCP IP address for the HR21 and plugged into a switch/router or device that is suppying the DHCP address and Port 2 should be used as the uplink to a HR20/HR21/xbox.


----------



## Drewg5

I give up.


----------



## kevinturcotte

When somebody calls up to order an HD DVR, are the CSRs going to have enough intelligence to ask if the person wants OTA tuning? Or will it even be an option-they can only select HD DVR, can't specify specific model. How much money is dropping the OTA tuner going to save when people order an HD DVR expecting it to have an OTA tuner, then have to turn around and have it shipped back to Cali because it doesn't have one?


----------



## ziggy29

No OTA is a deal breaker for a lot of people in markets with locals owned by LIN. Sounds nice otherwise.


----------



## sshams95

Does adding the External HD give you additional overall HD space? Or is it similar to the HR20 where it's either you use the external or internal HD.

Great work on the review guys....very professional.


----------



## say-what

sshams95 said:


> Does adding the External HD give you additional overall HD space? Or is it similar to the HR20 where it's either you use the external or internal HD.
> 
> Great work on the review guys....very professional.


Works the same as the HR20


----------



## Earl Bonovich

sshams95 said:


> Does adding the External HD give you additional overall HD space? Or is it similar to the HR20 where it's either you use the external or internal HD.
> 
> Great work on the review guys....very professional.


Same as the HR20... it replaces the internal.


----------



## say-what

Spanky_Partain said:


> The only thing I would change in the pdf is that the network chipset is a switch, not a pass through. So one of the ports can be a passive connection to the uplink to the other port.
> 
> Attached is a simple diagram of how an HR20 can hook up to a HR20 then to the router.


It's a nice feature, and you can actually connect several devices if you connect the second port to another switch. I had temporarily connected the 2nd port to a switch connecting my HR20 and Slingbox.


----------



## mhayes70

Drewg5 said:


> I give up.


Give up on what?


----------



## dmurphy

Spanky_Partain said:


> The only thing I would change in the pdf is that the network chipset is a switch, not a pass through. So one of the ports can be a passive connection to the uplink to the other port.
> 
> Attached is a simple diagram of how an HR20 can hook up to a HR20 then to the router.
> 
> Nice and clean document, easy to follow, and well done!


Brilliant! That's really, freakin' brilliant! One can basically "daisy chain" HR21's together - I like it!

Well done gentlemen! I love my HR20, but it just got upstaged .... There's a new sheriff in town!


----------



## pauper

So the review is great! I still need to know the display formats...have they truly included the 1080P upconvert?


----------



## MizzouTiger

Nice writeup guys!!

You said that the drive was quiet and that you noticed that the cooling fan kicked on when the temperature got to around 115F. Is the fan noise noticeable or quiet enough to have in a bedroom? Just wondering.


----------



## Groundhog45

ziggy29 said:


> No OTA is a deal breaker for a lot of people in markets with locals owned by LIN. Sounds nice otherwise.


That is exactly the problem I faced. Luckily my HR21 is on the same TV as a HR20 so it works out ok. (Six tuners and two buffers)


----------



## thart

Great Job!


----------



## RobertE

pauper said:


> So the review is great! I still need to know the display formats...have they truly included the 1080P upconvert?


No 1080p. Same as the HR20. 480i/p & 1080i


----------



## say-what

pauper said:


> So the review is great! I still need to know the display formats...have they truly included the 1080P upconvert?


You're talking about a different receiver, the HR21-pro which was only a show piece.



MizzouTiger said:


> Nice writeup guys!!
> 
> You said that the drive was quiet and that you noticed that the cooling fan kicked on when the temperature got to around 115F. Is the fan noise noticeable or quiet enough to have in a bedroom? Just wondering.


The HR21 is quiet. Can't hear the drive or fan.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sshams95 said:


> Does adding the External HD give you additional overall HD space? Or is it similar to the HR20 where it's either you use the external or internal HD.
> 
> Great work on the review guys....very professional.


eSata on the HR21-700 works *the same as *with the HR20-700 - it is an *alternative* external hard drive usage.


----------



## smiddy

NOLAmitch said:


> Thanks for the great write up on the new HR21.
> 
> This may not be the correct forum, but this does relate to the HR21. I waiting at home as I type this message for the delivery and installation of my new HR2? receiver. I've had a HR10-250 for since they first came out, and I've upgrade it to a 750GB hard-disk, and enabled many blocked features... but I digress.
> 
> My question is, do I know which receive I will get? I'm hoping for an HR20, as I have an OTA antenna installed which I used with the HR10-250. On top of that, there are quite a few digital / HD local channel with are available OTA, but not from D*TV. It seems that perhaps the HR21 has not be released yet, but will be released later this month. If that is the case, that's a good thing in my book.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mitch


:welcome_s

First, welcome to the forum!

Second, you'll most likely get the HR20 which has the OTA.


----------



## Groundhog45

pauper said:


> So the review is great! I still need to know the display formats...have they truly included the 1080P upconvert?


1080i


----------



## techrep

Nice read, thanks for the "First Look."


----------



## spoonman

LameLefty said:


> Well done, gentlemen!  :up: :goodjob:


+1


----------



## Doug Brott

kturcotte said:


> I don't understand that either. How much can an OTA tuner REALLY cost? And this isn't one of their regular little cheap receivers, this is supposed to be their "Top of the Line" High Definition DVR.


How much do you think it costs? Do you have a reference?

The cheapest PCI card I could find was ~$70 (MSRP $99) - and that's just a single tuner, the HR20 has two. The PCI card is basically the tuner integrated into the PCI card and integration into the HR21 would be necessary as well. I'd think at a minimum the ATSC tuner would be $15-$20 which would add to the cost of the HR21 $30-$40. I still think that most people don't need/want OTA and this $30-40 savings per receiver will add up. Savings for DIRECTV will ultimately translate to savings for customers.


----------



## spoonman

say-what said:


> It's a nice feature, and you can actually connect several devices if you connect the second port to another switch. I had temporarily connected the 2nd port to a switch connecting my HR20 and Slingbox.


It works great, I have hooked a PS3 to mine.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Doug Brott said:


> How much do you think it costs? Do you have a reference?
> 
> The cheapest PCI card I could find was ~$70 (MSRP $99) - and that's just a single tuner, the HR20 has two. The PCI card is basically the tuner integrated into the PCI card and integration into the HR21 would be necessary as well. I'd think at a minimum the ATSC tuner would be $15-$20 which would add to the cost of the HR21 $30-$40. I still think that most people don't need/want OTA and this $30-40 savings per receiver will add up. Savings for DIRECTV will ultimately translate to savings for customers.


Not once you have people that want OTA and get an HR21, so Directv has to send out boxes to send the HR21 back, and overnight an HR20 to replace it.


----------



## RobertE

kturcotte said:


> Not once you have people that want OTA and get an HR21, so Directv has to send out boxes to send the HR21 back, and overnight an HR20 to replace it.


In my market the number of people that want OTA set it is small. Very, very, very small. I'd say less than 1%.


----------



## say-what

kturcotte said:


> I don't understand that either. How much can an OTA tuner REALLY cost? And this isn't one of their regular little cheap receivers, this is supposed to be their "Top of the Line" High Definition DVR.


OTA is not a major issue when this is a secondary receiver, or you have locations that make it difficult to run an OTA cable, or if you live in areas getting HD LiL from DirecTV and don't care about the sub-channels, or just don't want to bother with an antenna.

I initially thought that the lack of OTA might be an issue and I held onto my H20 for a bit, but quickly realized that I wasn't using OTA in the room where the HR21 was being used. I have no problems with the HR21 lacking OTA as either a primary or secondary receiver and there are many subscribers who don't want to bother with installing an OTA antenna who won't care either.

Besides, the HR20 is still being supplied.


----------



## jazzyd971fm

Great review guys; one thing though, on page 3 with the front & back views, the HR20-100 is on top & the HR20-700 is on bottom. Not to be too technical.

Can we hope to order it in black or silver ??????????


----------



## Fish Man

Nice first look! Thanks!

Is the black a "limited edition" thing like it was when the HR20-100 was first introduced, or will black be an option permanently?


----------



## Doug Brott

kturcotte said:


> Not once you have people that want OTA and get an HR21, so Directv has to send out boxes to send the HR21 back, and overnight an HR20 to replace it.


I wish I actually had numbers to back it up. The only reference I have seen was from an installer that said the non-OTA to OTA ratio is about 40:1. Granted that may be in an area served by HD locals, but regardless, I still think we are talking percentages here.

If 40:1 is true & it's $30/receiver that DIRECTV saves, then that's nearly $1,200 saved. DIRECTV does, of course, need to make sure that the one who needs OTA gets it. Perhaps the numbers shift to 30:1 or even 20:1 .. That's still nearly $600 saved out of that set.

Of ALL of the people I know outside of DBSTalk.com, I am the *ONLY* one that had OTA for HD. After I moved, I can no longer get OTA even if I wanted it so even that one person no longer has a need for OTA.


----------



## say-what

Fish Man said:


> Nice first look! Thanks!
> 
> Is the black a "limited edition" thing like it was when the HR20-100 was first introduced, or will black be an option permanently?


Black is all we know, and considering that the H20 is black, I'd guess this is a black only machine until we see a silver one....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Fish Man said:


> Nice first look! Thanks!
> 
> Is the black a "limited edition" thing like it was when the HR20-100 was first introduced, or will black be an option permanently?


Black is expected to be the color of this model.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

OTA...

I would have to say that most TV's come with the NTSC/ATSC tuners built in these days, so OTA does not necessarily need to be a deal breaker but it may be an inconvenience for some.


----------



## Canis Lupus

Definitely inconvenient for those who want to record! 



Spanky_Partain said:


> OTA...
> 
> I would have to say that most TV's come with the NTSC/ATSC tuners built in these days, so OTA does not necessarily need to be a deal breaker but it may be an inconvenience for some.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Earl Bonovich said:


> Black is expected to be the color of this model.


Looks like I'll be waiting for the HR22 then lol



Spanky_Partain said:


> OTA...
> 
> I would have to say that most TV's come with the NTSC/ATSC tuners built in these days, so OTA does not necessarily need to be a deal breaker but it may be an inconvenience for some.


But the TV doesn't have any way to record that ATSC signal, and I'll turn EVERYTHING off before I watch Live TV again!
Not only that, I intend to be connecting the the OTA in a couple of days here so I can get Supernatural on CW in HD. How would I do that with the HR21 (HD CW in MPEG-4 isn't offered in my area)?


----------



## MikeW

Spanky_Partain said:


> OTA...
> 
> I would have to say that most TV's come with the NTSC/ATSC tuners built in these days, so OTA does not necessarily need to be a deal breaker but it may be an inconvenience for some.


Correct on that, however, most TVs do not include a DVR....

One question...I assume the GUI is the same ?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MikeW said:


> One question...I assume the GUI is the same ?


Yes...
(if you haven't been following the trend... pretty much HR21 = HR20 - ATSC)


----------



## Jeremy W

Nice job putting together the First Look guys! I'm happy that I can finally stop watching what I say in public.


----------



## Vinny

Jeremy W said:


> Nice job putting together the First Look guys! I'm happy that I can finally stop watching what I say in public.


Me TOO


----------



## Coffey77

You all did a fantastic job with the review! The HR21 is a sharp looking box and I can't wait until they become more available. Congrats to all the testers and I hope DIRECTV is proud of you as well.


----------



## Pink Fairy

Ooo, it is so pretty looking! I won't be getting an HD DVR till next year, so maybe....


----------



## mhayes70

Jeremy W said:


> Nice job putting together the First Look guys! I'm happy that I can finally stop watching what I say in public.


Same here.


----------



## jayerndl

I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I fail to see any advantage of the HR21 over the HR20. Other than the lack of OTA tuners is there any significant difference between the HR21 and the HR20-100? It probably makes sense for Directv to offer models with and without OTA tuners, but it isn't anything to get excited about. 

Jay


----------



## kevinturcotte

jayerndl said:


> I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I fail to see any advantage of the HR21 over the HR20. Other than the lack of OTA tuners is there any significant difference between the HR21 and the HR20-100? It probably makes sense for Directv to offer models with and without OTA tuners, but it isn't anything to get excited about.
> 
> Jay


But are you going to be able to specify that you want an HR20 or an HR21, and will the CSRs think to ask?


----------



## kylebj

Great review! Thanks guys. Put my name on one. 

Question: is the HDMI v 1.3 or 1.2?


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> I'm happy that I can finally stop watching what I say in public.


ME TOO!!!


----------



## hombresoto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There will continue to be both the HR20 and HR21 models.
> 
> For those who don't want or need OTA, they'll go with the HR21 HD DVR.
> 
> For those who "need" or want OTA, they'll go with the HR20 HD DVR.
> 
> This is consistent with what they've done in the H21 and H20 HD receiver lines.


It doesn't make sense to have 2 'almost' identical standard and dvr hd receivers. The only reason people are still getting h20's is because they are using up the existing stock... Soon, the h20 will be discontinued, and I suspect the hr20 will have the same fate. The warehouse I get equipment from indicated last week they WILL NOT be receiving any more h20's, only h21's. Our market exhausted the supplly of h20's and there are no more. 
I'm not happy about the lack of OTA reception, and think this was a bone head move by D*. Make no mistake, this was to save on costs... why else would they eliminate it?


----------



## Blurayfan

Great work on the review.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jayerndl said:


> I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I fail to see any advantage of the HR21 over the HR20. Other than the lack of OTA tuners is there any significant difference between the HR21 and the HR20-100? It probably makes sense for Directv to offer models with and without OTA tuners, but it isn't anything to get excited about.
> 
> Jay


Oh....you can start with the pretty black case....

....then add the extra Ethernet port....

....then add the newer, faster MPEG-4 processors....

....then add the better cooling....

....then the quiet 320GB drive....

....then lots of other stuff.... 

Since the majority of Americans are* not *set up to receive (or simply cannot get) OTA, it makes perfect business sense to have one DVR and one Receiver without OTA, as well as one with it.

If someone wants OTA, get an HR20-700, simple as that. For the rest....they'll find the HR21-700 a nice addition to any Home Theater.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hombresoto said:


> The only reason people are still getting h20's is because they are using up the existing stock... Soon, the h20 will be discontinued, and I suspect the hr20 will have the same fate


I don't know where you got your information, but none of it is correct.

As far as not having OTA in the new unit - most people in the U.S. don't or can't get OTA, so it is smart, not "boneheaded" on their part to also support that market.


----------



## mhayes70

hombresoto said:


> It doesn't make sense to have 2 'almost' identical standard and dvr hd receivers. The only reason people are still getting h20's is because they are using up the existing stock... Soon, the h20 will be discontinued, and I suspect the hr20 will have the same fate. The warehouse I get equipment from indicated last week they WILL NOT be receiving any more h20's, only h21's. Our market exhausted the supplly of h20's and there are no more.
> I'm not happy about the lack of OTA reception, and think this was a bone head move by D*. Make no mistake, this was to save on costs... why else would they eliminate it?


Everything that I have seen and heard is that they are not going to stop making the HR20. There is still alot of people out there that need the OTA tuner.


----------



## Ken S

Very nice work. Thank you for taking the time to write this up.

Is the chip set the same as the HR20's?

Also, I think the newer HR20-700s are now coming with 320GB drives.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Ken S said:


> Very nice work. Thank you for taking the time to write this up.
> 
> Is the chip set the same as the HR20's?


We were glad to be of service.

No - there is a section in the First Look document that specifically references the newer (faster) chipset.


----------



## hombresoto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I don't know where you got your information, but none of it is correct.
> 
> As far as not having OTA in the new unit - most people in the U.S. don't or can't get OTA, so it is smart, not "boneheaded" on their part to also support that market.


If it is an issue of the OTA tuner, why haven't the h20's been available AT ALL for the last 3 weeks? Also, logistically, why have 2 devices which basically perform the same function to track, inventory, an have on hand in every installers vehicle? It doesn't make sense, think about it. BTW: Do you work for D*? When was the last time you visited a D* distribution center? How many D11's do you see being installed these days, other than refurbs?


----------



## LameLefty

> why haven't the h20's been available AT ALL for the last 3 weeks?


When's the last time you worked in production engineering, manufacturing, or logistics management? There's any number of reasons why particular models are available (or not) in market segments. It could easily be a matter of Directv hoarding units to prepare for a big installation rush for the fall/holiday season, just as what happened last year with the HR20.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

kylebj said:


> Great review! Thanks guys. Put my name on one.
> 
> Question: is the HDMI v 1.3 or 1.2?


According to the Product Brief it is niether one, it is 1.1 according to the brief.
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf


----------



## Mixer

Nice job!


----------



## bgullicksen

Very nice job! I can't wait to get one once SWM is released to the public so I don't have to run anymore cable.

Bill


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hombresoto said:


> If it is an issue of the OTA tuner, why haven't the h20's been available AT ALL for the last 3 weeks? Also, logistically, why have 2 devices which basically perform the same function to track, inventory, an have on hand in every installers vehicle? It doesn't make sense, think about it. BTW: Do you work for D*? When was the last time you visited a D* distribution center? How many D11's do you see being installed these days, other than refurbs?


Inventories change locally, regionally, and nationally. One area might have a surplus, another a shortfall in hardware. This same thing happened when the HR20-700 (and eventually the HR20-100) DVR's first came out.

Fact is, demand for HD DVR's at D*TV is waaaaaaaay up. There have been some lags from manufacturing to certain areas trying to keep up with demand.

No, I don't currently nor ever have worked for DirecTV, but I have direct contacts who do. I actually did go through a regional distribution center in the Southeast last year - quite a place!

By having a DVR with an OTA tuner (actually there are 2 inside), as well as another model now without, they can satisfy both desires. If you read the First Look document carefully, you should have been able to distinguish at least 5-6 other differences between the Hr20 and HR21 units. Some of these (like the pass-through dual ports for networking) also have specific market appeal. In some cases, something as simple as the color of the unit might be a defining preference.

They have already done the same thing with the H20 and H21 receivers successfully.

It's nice to have choices.


----------



## jlancaster

Fantastic Job guys!! Looks great!


----------



## Sirshagg

hombresoto said:


> It doesn't make sense to have 2 'almost' identical standard and dvr hd receivers. The only reason people are still getting h20's is because they are using up the existing stock... Soon, the h20 will be discontinued, and I suspect the hr20 will have the same fate. The warehouse I get equipment from indicated last week they WILL NOT be receiving any more h20's, only h21's. Our market exhausted the supplly of h20's and there are no more.
> I'm not happy about the lack of OTA reception, and think this was a bone head move by D*. Make no mistake, this was to save on costs... why else would they eliminate it?


Sorry, but I tend to believe Earl when he says both will be available going forward.

I could _possibly_ see them limiting retail distribution of OTA capable units completely or in areas where HD locals are available over sat. However even this would probably be difficult given the warehouses of large chains like BB or CC.


----------



## P Smith

So what is missed ?
- RAM size
- main CPU ( BCM7038 ?)
- sat tuner chips ( Conexant ? ) under square can.

Will we see version 1.1 of the PDF ?


----------



## stevenjr

Great job on the doc...looks awesome. Still don't know about the lack of OTA until D* goes live with PBS HD. I don't watch PBS HD very often, about once a year, but when I want to, I want it there.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Spanky_Partain said:


> According to the Product Brief it is niether one, it is 1.1 according to the brief.
> http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf





P Smith said:


> So what is missed ?
> - RAM size
> - main CPU ( BCM7038 ?)
> - sat tuner chips ( Conexant ? ) under square can.
> 
> Will we see version 1.1 of the PDF ?


See link...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> Will we see version 1.1 of the PDF ?


No. This was not intended to be a technical document, however, a great deal of the HR21's internal contents was included.


----------



## daveriv

Great write up!


----------



## hombresoto

LameLefty said:


> When's the last time you worked in production engineering, manufacturing, or logistics management? There's any number of reasons why particular models are available (or not) in market segments. It could easily be a matter of Directv hoarding units to prepare for a big installation rush for the fall/holiday season, just as what happened last year with the HR20.


I am a lean manufacturing consultant, in addition to everything else. I could not do that job anymore with a clean conscience as most savings are achieved at the cost of someone's job.....

D* was not hoarding units, they had a distribution problem. When there were supposedly no hr20's to be had, I had 30 in my warehouse.... 
Believe what you want...:lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hombresoto said:


> I am a lean manufacturing consultant, in addition to everything else. I could not do that job anymore with a clean conscience as most savings are achieved at the cost of someone's job.....
> 
> D* was not hoarding units, they had a distribution problem. When there were supposedly no hr20's to be had, I had 30 in my warehouse....
> Believe what you want...:lol:


OK.........?????

Have a nice day.

:backtotop


----------



## oakwcj

Doug Brott said:


> Savings for DIRECTV will ultimately translate to savings for customers.


What makes you say this? If the cost for the HR21 is going to be the same as for the HR20, I would think our not-so-altruistic corporate friend is pocketing any savings.


----------



## Jeremy W

oakwcj said:


> What makes you say this? If the cost for the HR21 is going to be the same as for the HR20, I would think our not-so-altruistic corporate friend is pocketing any savings.


The cost will be the same when it is released. That doesn't mean it won't go down in the future.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

oakwcj said:


> What makes you say this? If the cost for the HR21 is going to be the same as for the HR20, I would think our not-so-altruistic corporate friend is pocketing any savings.


While this is off-topic...

The fact that the regular customer rates have not increased as fast as cable rate increases is one example of efficiencies passed onto us in the form of savings.

:backtotop , again.....


----------



## jdmac29

Great review guys and I like the pdf file format to keep on my hard drive. 
I like it but my area is missing the CW and PBS HD channels for mpeg4 locals but one day in the future they will have all locals like they do sd and this will be my next dvr.


----------



## oakwcj

Jeremy W said:


> The cost will be the same when it is released. That doesn't mean it won't go down in the future.


Until that wonderful day, in the best of all possible worlds, it appears that the savings are being pocketed rather than passed on.


----------



## Jeremy W

oakwcj said:


> Until that wonderful day, in the best of all possible worlds, it appears that the savings are being pocketed rather than passed on.


Or, the savings are being used to recoup the costs of developing and marketing a brand new DVR.


----------



## sbl

I like the look of the First Look document and am pleased that I was able to contribute to it.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> Or, the savings are being used to recoup the costs of developing and marketing a brand new DVR.


Or the savings are being used to NOT raise the prices for the new HD .. I think it is much more complex than simply saying a cheaper box cost should get passed directly through to the customer. There are a lot of ways we can see this benefit over the long run.


----------



## armophob

Far out!:smoking: 

Now, have the common bugs that plagued the HR20's followed to the HR21? Are the software issues all getting fixed at the same rate?


----------



## Sixto

Was out all day ... missed the new thread ... great job on the final pretty looking document!

Was happy to help ...


----------



## MikeW

oakwcj said:


> What makes you say this? If the cost for the HR21 is going to be the same as for the HR20, I would think our not-so-altruistic corporate friend is pocketing any savings.


It is really too hard to say. This may give CSRs a little more latitude to give some discounts. List of $299 has nothing to do with what people actually pay.


----------



## Jeremy W

armophob said:


> Now, have the common bugs that plagued the HR20's followed to the HR21? Are the software issues all getting fixed at the same rate?


The HR21 is still running pre-release software, and we are not allowed to comment on any issues that may or may not exist.


----------



## armophob

Jeremy W said:


> The HR21 is still running pre-release software, and we are not allowed to comment on any issues that may or may not exist.


Understood. had to ask.


----------



## dressig

Great intro to HR21-700; thanks guys.
Question about potential difference with HR20-700 -- Because of access issues with my house, installers were only able to use one line from A-9 dish to input box --which means I only have one line into my HR20 DVR. I cannot record and watch two different channels at the same time. 

Your introduction states at one point as follows: "If setting up with an SWM unit, the coax cable is connected via into Satellite “In” 1 (labeled "SWM 2" on the
back panel). The one cable will take the place of two runs coming from the
dish. Note: The HR21 will use 2 of the available channels from the SWM device
(either a total of 5 channels or 8 channels available)."

Does this mean I could watch one channel and record another with just input from the dish?

If not, does anyone have any ideas to solve my problem? Thanks

Although a lot of what you guys discuss is over my head, what I can make out has been extremely interesting and valuable. Thanks.

Sony KDL40V2500
HR20-700 HDMI


----------



## Jeremy W

dressig said:


> Does this mean I could watch one channel and record another with just input from the dish?


Only if you have the SWM. The HR20 works with the SWM as well. It is not widely available yet, though.


----------



## dressig

Jeremy W said:


> Only if you have the SWM. The HR20 works with the SWM as well. It is not widely available yet, though.


I know I am going to regret asking because it will make me look stupid, but...
what is a SWM?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

dressig said:


> I know I am going to regret asking because it will make me look stupid, but...
> what is a SWM?


SWM=Single Wire Multi-Switch

It will allow you to run one line to a HD DVR and it will control both tuners.

Or

You can run on line to a location and use a splitter to hook up more than one receiver.

It will work with the HR20, HR21, H21, H20, and D12.

If you do a search for SWM you will find a lot more information on it.


----------



## Doug Brott

dressig,

To answer your earlier question. Yes, an SWM would help. You could put the SWM outside and connect the four wires from the DISH to your SWM. The single run into your house could run to your HR20 (or multiple HR20/21s) and allow the use of Dual Tuners .. Look for it to help you out when the become more available.


----------



## forecheck

Nice review guys!

Seems like alot of people here got to test this new receiver, is there a place to sign up to be considered for future betas? I know with the DirecTiVo's, there was a place where you could sign up to be eligible for both the software and hardware betas.


----------



## PoitNarf

Cat is finally out of the bag eh? :lol: Nice job everyone!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

hombresoto said:


> I'm not happy about the lack of OTA reception, and think this was a bone head move by D*. Make no mistake, this was to save on costs... why else would they eliminate it?


No one is arguing the fact that it was to save on costs...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

hombresoto said:


> How many D11's do you see being installed


Since the D11 is no longer produced, and was replaced by D12's... I would expect that number to be very low


----------



## Jeremy W

forecheck said:


> is there a place to sign up to be considered for future betas?


Kind of. Just post your setup in this thread. DirecTV reviews that thread when they're looking for field testers. Also, I'd say that participation in the forums is a big thing as well. They don't want to send out a receiver to someone who won't actively test it.


----------



## RobertE

hombresoto said:


> If it is an issue of the OTA tuner, why haven't the h20's been available AT ALL for the last 3 weeks? Also, logistically, why have 2 devices which basically perform the same function to track, inventory, an have on hand in every installers vehicle? It doesn't make sense, think about it. BTW: Do you work for D*? When was the last time you visited a D* distribution center? How many D11's do you see being installed these days, other than refurbs?


I've gotten and installed H20s each week over the past month. Some refurb -600s and brand new -100s. Ditto with D11s.


----------



## Kevin2735

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes...
> (if you haven't been following the trend... pretty much HR21 = HR20 - ATSC)


Can someone comment on the speed for the GUI / channel guide?

I know on my my HR20 it is much slower to move through the channel guide than my non DVR model (sorry I forgot the model, I'm such a noob).


----------



## RobertE

Earl Bonovich said:


> Since the D11 is no longer produced, and was replaced by D12's... I would expect that number to be very low


Really? Must have been very recently then. I have some with mfg dates of 8/24/07 on my truck now.


----------



## Jeremy W

Kevin2735 said:


> Can someone comment on the speed for the GUI / channel guide?


Nope, sorry. We aren't allowed to talk about the software at all at this time.


----------



## Game Fan

Congrats and good job on the review. It's nice to see an intelligent and well thought out write up that's not so technical you have to be an engineer to understand it. Thank God for choices. It gives us all options and topics to debate.


----------



## forecheck

Jeremy W said:


> Kind of. Just post your setup in this thread. DirecTV reviews that thread when they're looking for field testers. Also, I'd say that participation in the forums is a big thing as well. They don't want to send out a receiver to someone who won't actively test it.


Very good, thanks!


----------



## tvspy

RobertE said:


> No 1080p. Same as the HR20. 480i/p & 1080i


HA. Where are you going to get 1080P??? No one is going to broadcast in 1080P. I hope you didnt get sucked into the market hype and spend extra on a 1080P just to watch live TV. Ouch


----------



## Drewg5

mhayes70 said:


> Give up on what?


Ok so I will clearify... Trying to keep up, just way to much info flowing way to fast. Good wright up though.


----------



## mhayes70

Drewg5 said:


> Ok so I will clearify... Trying to keep up, just way to much info flowing way to fast. Good wright up though.


Ah, ok. :lol:


----------



## RunnerFL

Great job HDTVFan001 and Drew2k!!!


----------



## YoungMan

Nice job and with all 3 placed together in this comparo...I pose this question, did D* put the guts of an HR20-100 in the case of the HR20-700?

I ask because a sticker by the card slot and the info test screen tells me mine is a 100, yet the case, front and back are setup like the 700.

My unit is currently in crash mode, as well....not a happy camper. Guide problems, one cable down, every other tranceiver reading 0...I fear it's fatal.


----------



## RunnerFL

Jeremy W said:


> Nice job putting together the First Look guys! I'm happy that I can finally stop watching what I say in public.


Yeah, and I can stop reading my posts 10 times before I submit them. :lol:


----------



## RunnerFL

jayerndl said:


> I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I fail to see any advantage of the HR21 over the HR20. Other than the lack of OTA tuners is there any significant difference between the HR21 and the HR20-100? It probably makes sense for Directv to offer models with and without OTA tuners, but it isn't anything to get excited about.
> 
> Jay


There are quite a few advantages...

1. Onboard network switch
2. More Responsive
3. Black
4. Record LED is actually RED which is the International standard for Record.
5. Runs cooler
6. Runs Quieter
7. And so on...


----------



## m_jraj

RunnerFL said:


> There are quite a few advantages...
> 
> 1. Onboard network switch
> 2. More Responsive
> 3. Black
> 4. Record LED is actually RED which is the International standard for Record.
> 5. Runs cooler
> 6. Runs Quieter
> 7. And so on...


I have to agree at first blush - not sure of the benefit to any of those, assuming my hr20 doesn't overheat.


----------



## Smuuth

Great job on the first look, HDTVFan001 and Drew2k.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It's all preference really.


----------



## armophob

m_jraj said:


> I have to agree at first blush - not sure of the benefit to any of those, assuming my hr20 doesn't overheat.


Remember this statement when 1 -3 years down the road and the HR20-700's start failing like clockwork for running too hot for too long.


----------



## flipptyfloppity

tvspy said:


> HA. Where are you going to get 1080P??? No one is going to broadcast in 1080P. I hope you didnt get sucked into the market hype and spend extra on a 1080P just to watch live TV. Ouch


I did. All non-CRT devices (except a few wobblerating DLPs) are inherently progressive. So if you have 1080 resolution, you get 1080p. So I have 1080p.

So why do I care if this outputs 1080p, since as you point out no live TV is in 1080p?

Because if I could set this device to output 1080p, it could output both 1080i and 720p over the output without switching modes and without any loss in spatial or temporal resolution.

So that's what I want. And some day I'll have it I expect.

As my own question, this review repeatedly mentions the HR21 doesn't have an OTA input. So that means it has no OTA at all, or just requires you diplex it (or some other SWM tomfoolery)?


----------



## waynenm

I cannot believe there's no OTA. Just plain wrong.


----------



## thewavgod

very nice work indeed, the pretty black will match my UTV's nicely


----------



## RobertE

waynenm said:


> I cannot believe there's no OTA. Just plain wrong.


Why?

If you want/need OTA then the HR20 is for you.

If you don't want/need OTA then the HR21 is for you.

So whats wrong with choice?


----------



## johnck78

Ok, I'm a little confused. Wouldn't it make financial sense to mfg, inventory and support as few devices as possible? A friend and I were just having this conversation today, why even have SD receivers/dvrs any more. The HD ones will work just fine with SD set-ups, then it's less devices to support. I have seen COX start to do this, in RI they only offer an HD DVR now.

If you agree with that logic (and I'm sure some won't), why develop a new dvr that is missing a major feature? I am excited about some of the new features, like extra Ethernet port, cooler, quieter, etc. I think these are all good things, but if the added OTA then they could phase out the HR20, which should make support easier.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RunnerFL said:


> 4. Record LED is actually RED which is the International standard for Record.


FYI:

The Record LED used to be RED on the R15.... but there were enough complaints and feedback, that it was changed to be the less-intense yellowish..

And when the change was made... a LOT of people were happy about it.

So that color choice, carried onto the HR20 platform.

I personally couldn't care if it was green or purple (actually purple would be kinda of cool)... so long as you know what the light is for...


----------



## RunnerFL

Earl Bonovich said:


> FYI:
> 
> The Record LED used to be RED on the R15.... but there were enough complaints and feedback, that it was changed to be the less-intense yellowish..
> 
> And when the change was made... a LOT of people were happy about it.
> 
> So that color choice, carried onto the HR20 platform.
> 
> I personally couldn't care if it was green or purple (actually purple would be kinda of cool)... so long as you know what the light is for...


Yeah, purple would be cool and very different. 

I've just never understood why "Record" is yellow. I always think red when I think record. And yeah I had an R15 when the light was red and was bummed when they made it yellow.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RunnerFL said:


> Yeah, purple would be cool and very different.
> 
> I've just never understood why "Record" is yellow. I always think red when I think record. And yeah I had an R15 when the light was red and was bummed when they made it yellow.


The main complaints.... Red was very "piercing" during the night, and hard to see sometimes during the day.

Maybe we shoudl add it to the wishlist.... Purple on the Glossy black of the HR21-700 would look really cool......

:backtotop


----------



## hdtvfan0001

YoungMan said:


> Nice job and with all 3 placed together in this comparo...I pose this question, did D* put the guts of an HR20-100 in the case of the HR20-700?


Not even close. No. New board, new processors.


johnck78 said:


> Ok, I'm a little confused. Wouldn't it make financial sense to mfg, inventory and support as few devices as possible? A friend and I were just having this conversation today, why even have SD receivers/dvrs any more.


Which is why there is a flurry of conversion going on to the new HD equipment, especially HD DVR's. The clock is ticking on SD.


waynenm said:


> I cannot believe there's no OTA. Just plain wrong.


I just can't believe how much a small number of people continue to *crave* OTA. I've had it for 9 years as a backup plan prior to LIL, but now, if it went away tomorrow...it's not that big a deal. Let it go....let it go.....


flipptyfloppity said:


> So why do I care if this outputs 1080p, since as you point out no live TV is in 1080p? Because if I could set this device to output 1080p, it could output both 1080i and 720p over the output without switching modes and without any loss in spatial or temporal resolution.


The only thing 1080p is doing right now is helping justify selling more expensive TV's (since there is no 1080p broadcast now or foreseen in the next few years) - I'm sure the manufacturers are giddy all the way to the bank. As far as having 1080p for DVR output, you've got some waiting ahead.


> As my own question, this review repeatedly mentions the HR21 doesn't have an OTA input. So that means it has no OTA at all, or just requires you diplex it (or some other SWM tomfoolery)?


No means no.


----------



## gio12

Great job guys. As much as I like it, the lack OTA for my main TV is a deal breaker. With rain fade here in Miami, Fl I take no chances during fottball season!

Now as a second DVR and other rooms, this is it!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

gio12 said:


> Great job guys. As much as I like it, the lack OTA for my main TV is a deal breaker. With rain fade here in Miami, Fl I take no chances during fottball season!
> 
> Now as a second DVR and other rooms, this is it!


I suspect you'll be impressed by the new processors & tuners. The signal levels are actually a bit higher in the HR21-700. With a properly aligned dish, it does quite well in rain showers. Like any other receivers, its the lightening storms that may be an issue on rare occasions. I've always said if the weather is bad enough my DVR can't get a picture, I should be heading for cover myself. But I can also understand the issue of monsoon fade, uh, rain fade in Miami.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

johnck78 said:


> Ok, I'm a little confused. Wouldn't it make financial sense to mfg, inventory and support as few devices as possible? A friend and I were just having this conversation today, why even have SD receivers/dvrs any more. The HD ones will work just fine with SD set-ups, then it's less devices to support. I have seen COX start to do this, in RI they only offer an HD DVR now.
> 
> If you agree with that logic (and I'm sure some won't), why develop a new dvr that is missing a major feature? I am excited about some of the new features, like extra Ethernet port, cooler, quieter, etc. I think these are all good things, but if the added OTA then they could phase out the HR20, which should make support easier.


$$$ of the actual boxes...

SD Recievers are still going to be VERY popular for a long time, as there are a lot of people that do not want to replace their TV's.... out of the 16mil subscribers, up to 3mil have advanced products (HD and DVRs)....

I know it is hard to believe for some people... but ATSC is "not" a major feature to the vast majority of customers... it really isn't.... Especially in those markets that the "big 4" are available via SAT... and with D11... the others, and more markets are going to get added.


----------



## Carl Spock

hdtvfan0001 said:


> waynenm said:
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot believe there's no OTA. Just plain wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I just can't believe how much a small number of people continue to *crave* OTA. I've had it for 9 years as a backup plan prior to LIL, but now, if it went away tomorrow...it's not that big a deal. Let it go....let it go.....
Click to expand...

While "just plain wrong" is a bit harsh, for the immediate future and maybe longer, the only way I'll receive the broadcast networks in HDTV in my town is with a OTA tuner.

I *crave* butter brickle ice cream. I *need* an ATSC tuner.

BTW, hats off to all the reviewers. Excellent work. Let me buy you a drink.


----------



## flipptyfloppity

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The only thing 1080p is doing right now is helping justify selling more expensive TV's (since there is no 1080p broadcast now or foreseen in the next few years) - I'm sure the manufacturers are giddy all the way to the bank. As far as having 1080p for DVR output, you've got some waiting ahead.


Could I please ask you to drop this anger toward 1080p and instead stick with the facts?

I listed a very valid reason why a TV would have 1080p, even if it isn't useful for aired TV.
I listed a very valid reason at a PVR would have 1080p output.
And finally, even if you discount either of these, there are plenty of HD disc players in this world that are perfectly capable of producing a 1080p signal.

There are valid reasons for 1080p, please do not say there aren't.



> (In reponse to my query to clarify the documentation on OTA reception vs inputs)
> No means no.


If the document was a clear "no" I wouldn't have had to ask. It leaves out all mention of OTA reception and instead only talks about the OTA inputs. I did not ask an unreasonable question (although perhaps someone asked it before me).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ggergm said:


> I *crave* butter brickle ice cream. I *need* an ATSC tuner.
> 
> BTW, hats off to all the reviewers. Excellent work. Let me buy you a drink.


I respect your point, and welcome your drink. :lol:

When we get to that end of the bar (again), we'll make sure and stop by. Thanks for the kind words.

The whole purpose of any First Look at this fantastic DBSTalk Website is to share a well-rounded view (in content and pictures) of new technology with fellow readers/posters here.

DBSTalk has established a tradition of providing unparalleled moderator knowledge and extensive product knowledge resources. We felt honored to be of service in this small way.


----------



## arxaw

OTA is a *very* big deal here. We live only one county away from stations broadcasting in our state, with news and local sports programs of great interest to us. But since we're in a different DMA, D* can only offer us locals from four counties away in another state. So most people around here that subscribe to satellite use OTA. We also don't have HD LIL and probably won't for a very long time.

No OTA. No thanks.

Even if you'll still be able to order an HR20, that doesn't guarantee you won't get the tunerless model by mistake.

I just don't see any savings by having to stock two very similar models - one full featured, the other not.


----------



## whatchel1

Why would anyone want a unit that has no OTA or QAM input.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

flipptyfloppity said:


> Could I please ask you to drop this anger toward 1080p and instead stick with the facts?
> 
> There are valid reasons for 1080p, please do not say there aren't.


Why would I have any _anger _at 1080p - it never did anything to me? 

Perhaps I can enhance my previous statement to say that that there are no broadcast media market-driven reasons for 1080p at this time. You may find it interesting that there are countless pieces all over the Web coming to this very same conclusion.

If you have a personal desire or need, this observation does not apply.

:backtotop


----------



## johnck78

Earl Bonovich said:


> $$$ of the actual boxes...
> 
> SD Recievers are still going to be VERY popular for a long time, as there are a lot of people that do not want to replace their TV's.... out of the 16mil subscribers, up to 3mil have advanced products (HD and DVRs)....
> 
> I know it is hard to believe for some people... but ATSC is "not" a major feature to the vast majority of customers... it really isn't.... Especially in those markets that the "big 4" are available via SAT... and with D11... the others, and more markets are going to get added.


I know SD Receivers are still very popular, but an HD receiver is also an SD receiver is it not? And an HD DVR is also an SD DVR right? Hear me out for a second. Let's say we stop offering SD Receivers and SD DVRs. Over the course of time, you would end up with less equipment to support, less software versions to support. I know the HD versions may be more expensive, however you'd be buying more components, which should lower cost. Support should be easier too.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, options are great. But, think of the questions just to order a new receiver:

Receiver or DVR?
SD or HD?
If HD, OTA?

And what if the customer doesn't know if they need OTA and says no. They get it and have to send it back for an HR20 because they are in a LIN market.

I am just thinking it would be simpler to just have to ask Receiver or DVR? And even with that (I am really dreaming now), you could make them all DVRs and just not activate the DVR service (I know that's a stretch cuz DVRs are cost more)

Sorry for the long post, just my opinion.

BTW, probably forgot to mention it, GREAT First Look! I really like the way it was done. Keep up the good work!


----------



## ziggy29

whatchel1 said:


> Why would anyone want a unit that has no OTA or QAM input.


Plenty of reasons. Maybe you only watch the four main networks and D* has all your locals in HD. In that case you may not care about OTA.

But if you live where D* isn't providing locals, if you live in an area where LIN owns some locals, if you watch PBS and any other locals that may broadcast in HD or if you live in an area where you can get (and want) programming across DMAs, then no OTA is a big problem. As long as D* is careful to help the customer get the right model -- HR20 or HR21 -- depending on whether they need OTA, all will be well. There are plenty of people who don't need OTA, but some of these people need to understand that not everyone is in the first group of people I mentioned.


----------



## flipptyfloppity

arxaw said:


> I just don't see any savings by having to stock two very similar models - one full featured, the other not.


If you make enough of them, it makes sense. And it's not like they have to worry about retail shelf space, they can just offer the HR20 only in stores, saving the HR21 for units they send out free (or at a discount) to customers.

Even though I cannot live without OTA (I'm watching a ballgame on it right now), I have no difficulty understanding why this unit would exist.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

whatchel1 said:


> Why would anyone want a unit that has no OTA or QAM input.


Very easy...

I get all the stations that I want... my locals included.
via sat..

My antenna in my attic is going to be now primarily for FM radio...


----------



## armophob

Earl Bonovich said:


> The main complaints.... Red was very "piercing" during the night, and hard to see sometimes during the day.
> 
> Maybe we shoudl add it to the wishlist.... Purple on the Glossy black of the HR21-700 would look really cool......
> 
> :backtotop


Whatever color you ladies decide on, can we agree to a dimming level that adjusts with the blue ring?


----------



## vurbano

waynenm said:


> I cannot believe there's no OTA. Just plain wrong.


Its not wrong. Its ridiculous. Of course D* may want to take away the ability to do PQ comparisons with their HD. And when a big storm comes along, no OTA means no TV with satellite.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

vurbano said:


> Its not wrong. Its ridiculous. Of course D* may want to take away the ability to do PQ comparisons with their HD. And when a big storm comes along, no OTA means no TV with satellite.


Oh... that's the reason..
You hit it right on the head... homerun... game over...

Oh.. and yes... that is satire there


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No. This was not intended to be a technical document, however, a great deal of the HR21's internal contents was included.


It's just missing couple technical tidbits, why not finish if the kind of HW info was included already ?
BTW, there is an error - 7401 mistakenly announced as Main CPU.
[If you don't know how to calculate RAM size, just give the DRAM chip model and quantity - we will help you ].


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> It's just missing couple technical tidbits, why not finish if the kind of HW info was included already ?
> BTW, there is an error - 7401 mistakenly announced as Main CPU.
> [If you don't know how to calculate RAM size, just give the DRAM chip model and quantity - we will help you ].


Perhaps this would be worthy of a separate "technical discussion" thread?

The BCM7401 is correct...here are tons of tech details...

http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/HDTV-SDTV-Video,-Graphics-&-Receiver-Products/BCM7401

It's called a "a MIPS32/MIPS16e™ class CPU" in the manufacturer's documentation, so that was good enough for us.

Again, the intent of the First Look is to be a first look. In reading others in the past, we actually went well beyond previous pieces in details and photos.

I'm sure there will be further and perhaps extensive interest in the technical details, so I'd ask and recommend that it be placed in its own worthy thread for that purpose.


----------



## waynenm

RobertE said:


> Why?
> 
> If you want/need OTA then the HR20 is for you.
> 
> If you don't want/need OTA then the HR21 is for you.
> 
> So whats wrong with choice?


I don't think it's choice. I think it's planned obsolescence.
Why would they keep the HR-20, and not replace it with
the 21? Whatever. There's more than one way to record
OTA. It's just annoying that the consistency of OTA can't
be in the next generation.


----------



## saleen351

Sorry guys, but noting that it doesn't weight as much thus easier to install is ludicrous. The HR20 DOESN'T WEIGHT 100 POUNDS! LOL


----------



## glitch1999

I like the cosmic changes - gloss black and frosted LEDs. No OTA - no problem. I get my locals via sat anyway.

The biggest improvement for me is the fact that I can stack components and not block the vents.


----------



## waynenm

Earl Bonovich said:


> Very easy...
> 
> I get all the stations that I want... my locals included.
> via sat..
> 
> My antenna in my attic is going to be now primarily for FM radio...


So- LIN doesn't own your CBS affiliate. Nice for you, but not so for many others. Not to mention the CW and MyTV.


----------



## P Smith

I knew the chip [7401], but you doing big mistake pushing to convince it is main one - be honest, tell us you missed that real one, under heat-sink close to DRAM chips. 



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps this would be worthy of a separate "technical discussion" thread?
> 
> The BCM7401 is correct...here are tons of tech details...
> 
> http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/HDTV-SDTV-Video,-Graphics-&-Receiver-Products/BCM7401
> 
> It's called a "a MIPS32/MIPS16e™ class CPU" in the manufacturer's documentation, so that was good enough for us.
> 
> Again, the intent of the First Look is to be a first look. In reading others in the past, we actually went well beyond previous pieces in details and photos.
> 
> I'm sure there will be further and perhaps extensive interest in the technical details, so I'd ask and recommend that it be placed in its own worthy thread for that purpose.


----------



## mtxguy74

I would love to get my locals in HD from the bird...unfortunately that hasn't happened yet. Until that time my ChannelMaster in the attic gives me my local love.

Dayton, OH locals in HD...please.

Other wise I would love a piano black HR21...great job guys


----------



## hdtvfan0001

saleen351 said:


> Sorry guys, but noting that it doesn't weight as much thus easier to install is ludicrous. The HR20 DOESN'T WEIGHT 100 POUNDS! LOL


In the overview from the outside, the piece says:

*Case Weight*: Seems to be slightly lighter than the HR20 models.

In the Observations section, it states:

"The build quality on these units appears to be as solid as ever within the DirecTV lineup. *While the HR21 feels lighter and is thus easier to position *for installation, the components seem to be very solid and well thought out."

*Of course* something lighter is easier to position for installation - it's not ludicrous. You read way more into this than was stated.


----------



## Doug Brott

P Smith said:


> I knew the chip [7401], but you doing big mistake pushing to convince it is main one - be honest, tell us you missed that real one, under heat-sink close to DRAM chips.


The chip under the heat sink is the BCM4501

http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/4501-PB01-R.pdf

This is the tuner chip, the 7401 integrates the CPU and the decoder .. The HR20 had a combo of the 7038 as the CPU and 7411 as the decoder. Am I missing something?


----------



## RobertE

P Smith said:


> I knew the chip [7401], but you doing big mistake pushing to convince it is main one - be honest, tell us you missed that real one, under heat-sink close to DRAM chips.


Sorry to disappoint, but its the 7401 under the heat sink.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RobertE said:


> Sorry to disappoint, but its the 7401 under the heat sink.


Thanks for the photo "evidence" RobertE.

So there we go....back to where we started.

Now all our chips are on the table and we can move forward.


----------



## Doug Brott

RobertE said:


> Sorry to disappoint, but its the 7401 under the heat sink.


:lol: .. oops .. Thanks Robert. I think my day started off poorly when I put my shoes on the wrong feet .

Nonetheless, the 7401 is the powerhouse .


----------



## azarby

flipptyfloppity said:


> I did. All non-CRT devices (except a few wobblerating DLPs) are inherently progressive. So if you have 1080 resolution, you get 1080p. So I have 1080p.
> 
> So why do I care if this outputs 1080p, since as you point out no live TV is in 1080p?
> 
> Because if I could set this device to output 1080p, it could output both 1080i and 720p over the output without switching modes and without any loss in spatial or temporal resolution.
> 
> So that's what I want. And some day I'll have it I expect.
> 
> As my own question, this review repeatedly mentions the HR21 doesn't have an OTA input. So that means it has no OTA at all, or just requires you diplex it (or some other SWM tomfoolery)?


Ther is no OTA at all. The is nothing that diplexing or anything else that can be done to make it happen. The physical tuners do not exist.

bob


----------



## DaveTheWave

Nice job...

All you "NO OTA" nay sayers... You can have my HR20, I'll take the HR21 any day.

After it's been released for a while and we know there are not other issues with it and we have a CE program for it


----------



## spartanstew

Nice first look guys.

But I don't think tfederov has any capital letters in it. 



DaveTheWave said:


> All you "NO OTA" nay sayers... You can have my HR20, I'll take the HR21 any day.


Ditto. I have no need for OTA and currently my HR20 is the only silver piece of equipment in my light controlled (dark) home theater. I'd much prefer black in there.


----------



## rahlquist

whatchel1 said:


> Why would anyone want a unit that has no OTA or QAM input.


Me, dont use them now, dont need them. I am far enough in the sticks that I doubt I would ever use OTA.

Ya know if folks really wanted to keep the manufacturing costs down then the cable box manufs, DVR manufs, IPTV, etc would all sit down and define a multi input bus that shared similar characteristics that they could all use. So much like cable cards you could plug in satellite cards etc..

Imagine how cool a DVR with 5 input slots would be, put 1 OTA and 2 Sat cards and an IPTV in it and away you go.

Ahh to dream....


----------



## Draconis

I know that I am a little late in saying this but, well done. 

As always DBSTalk.com is a great resource for the enthusiast.


----------



## alwayscool

First off I'd like to say nice review guys.  
However I'm very disappointed that D* wasted good money developing the HR21-700 when the HR20-700 still doesn't work 100% properly. Sorry to be a party pooper, however, I feel that D* should invested all that money in making the HR20 solid. A quieter hard drive could have been used, a fan installed, and a black box used. Faster speed? For what? Can someone explain this? Sorry D* nice try. I get sick and tired of all the guys on this forum who are tied closely to D* and get free equipment etc... to test, trying to blow smoke up our butts raving about how good these new DVR's are when they still can't reliably record shows, Media Share doesn't work properly, not to mention the other pitfalls (aka bugs) of these new ird's.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Oh....you can start with the pretty black case....
> 
> ....then add the extra Ethernet port....
> 
> ....then add the newer, faster MPEG-4 processors....
> 
> ....then add the better cooling....
> 
> ....then the quiet 320GB drive....
> 
> ....then lots of other stuff....
> 
> Since the majority of Americans are* not *set up to receive (or simply cannot get) OTA, it makes perfect business sense to have one DVR and one Receiver without OTA, as well as one with it.
> 
> If someone wants OTA, get an HR20-700, simple as that. For the rest....they'll find the HR21-700 a nice addition to any Home Theater.


1.) Black Case- Nice if you really want one, but does nothing for performance.
2.) Extra Ethernet Port- A $40.00 8 port switch will do just fine.
3.) Faster MPEG-4 Processor- Does that make the content display faster/clearer?
4.) Better Cooling- Good to make the components last longer, but who cares? It's a leased box and when it fries I get a free replacement because D* owns the box not me.
5.) Quiet 320 gb drive- Wow like they couldn't have put a more quiet one in the HR-20? How about a 750gb or 1tb drive, or better yet a way to ADD capacity, not replace it. What a waste.
6.) Lots of other "cool stuff"- Like what?

Sorry but I don't live in "the sticks" where there isn't any OTA channels. I NEED an OTA tuner. I receive 25, yes 25, OTA channels (with more to be added) here that blow away D*'s wannabe HD signals. The picture quality is no comparison.

Whoever wasted all this money developing this "new" HR21 should be fired. The money D* spent on this should have been spent on fixing the HR20. The bottom line is that it costs more to have two of virtually the same receivers in support, distribution, etc... The extra $50.00 for OTA tuners saved is not being passed on to the customer. When was the last time we got a price REDUCTION on our bills? No it goes into the shareholders and executive's pockets just like all other big greedy corporations in America. Can you say made in China or Mexico?

Whatever.... Just my rambling thoughts.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Jeremy W said:


> Nope, sorry. We aren't allowed to talk about the software at all at this time.


Is that because it will include DLB, PIP, and Tivo software? :grin:

OH I'm just kidding! :lol:


----------



## kevinturcotte

alwayscool said:


> First off I'd like to say nice review guys.
> However I'm very disappointed that D* wasted good money developing the HR21-700 when the HR20-700 still doesn't work 100% properly. Sorry to be a party pooper, however, I feel that D* should invested all that money in making the HR20 solid. A quieter hard drive could have been used, a fan installed, and a black box used. Faster speed? For what? Can someone explain this? Sorry D* nice try. I get sick and tired of all the guys on this forum who are tied closely to D* and get free equipment etc... to test, trying to blow smoke up our butts raving about how good these new DVR's are when they still can't reliably record shows, Media Share doesn't work properly, not to mention the other pitfalls (aka bugs) of these new ird's.
> 
> 1.) Black Case- Nice if you really want one, but does nothing for performance.
> 2.) Extra Ethernet Port- A $40.00 8 port switch will do just fine.
> 3.) Faster MPEG-4 Processor- Does that make the content display faster/clearer?
> 4.) Better Cooling- Good to make the components last longer, but who cares? It's a leased box and when it fries I get a free replacement because D* owns the box not me.
> 5.) Quiet 320 gb drive- Wow like they couldn't have put a more quiet one in the HR-20? How about a 750gb or 1tb drive, or better yet a way to ADD capacity, not replace it. What a waste.
> 6.) Lots of other "cool stuff"- Like what?
> 
> Sorry but I don't live in "the sticks" where there isn't any OTA channels. I NEED an OTA tuner. I receive 25, yes 25, OTA channels (with more to be added) here that blow away D*'s wannabe HD signals. The picture quality is no comparison.
> 
> Whoever wasted all this money developing this "new" HR21 should be fired. The money D* spent on this should have been spent on fixing the HR20. The bottom line is that it costs more to have two of virtually the same receivers in support, distribution, etc... The extra $50.00 for OTA tuners saved is not being passed on to the customer. When was the last time we got a price REDUCTION on our bills? No it goes into the shareholders and executive's pockets just like all other big greedy corporations in America. Can you say made in China or Mexico?
> 
> Whatever.... Just my rambling thoughts.


Directv will NEVER carry all those OTA channels (Well, I won't say NEVER, lol, I remember when they'd NEVER carry any local channels at all lol).
Better cooling is good. The longer it lasts, the longer you go without it frying and loosing all of your shows.


----------



## Doug Brott

alwayscool said:


> . . . I'd like to say nice review guys.


Yup, very good point. I agree.


----------



## gully_foyle

One thing I noted is that the BCM7401 chip has something called "letterbox detection." No details in the product brief and I wonder if this also includes pillarbox detection. That might allow for setting automatic formatting preferences.


----------



## bertman64

When it is pouring down rain like here in Dallas area Sunday night all Satellite channels went out but all HD channels from antenna still came in fine so that is one of many reasons it should still have an OTA tuner!


----------



## labk88

alwayscool said:


> First off I'd like to say nice review guys.
> However I'm very disappointed that D* wasted good money developing the HR21-700 when the HR20-700 still doesn't work 100% properly. Sorry to be a party pooper, however, I feel that D* should invested all that money in making the HR20 solid. A quieter hard drive could have been used, a fan installed, and a black box used. Faster speed? For what? Can someone explain this? Sorry D* nice try. I get sick and tired of all the guys on this forum who are tied closely to D* and get free equipment etc... to test, trying to blow smoke up our butts raving about how good these new DVR's are when they still can't reliably record shows, Media Share doesn't work properly, not to mention the other pitfalls (aka bugs) of these new ird's.
> 
> 1.) Black Case- Nice if you really want one, but does nothing for performance.
> 2.) Extra Ethernet Port- A $40.00 8 port switch will do just fine.
> 3.) Faster MPEG-4 Processor- Does that make the content display faster/clearer?
> 4.) Better Cooling- Good to make the components last longer, but who cares? It's a leased box and when it fries I get a free replacement because D* owns the box not me.
> 5.) Quiet 320 gb drive- Wow like they couldn't have put a more quiet one in the HR-20? How about a 750gb or 1tb drive, or better yet a way to ADD capacity, not replace it. What a waste.
> 6.) Lots of other "cool stuff"- Like what?
> 
> Sorry but I don't live in "the sticks" where there isn't any OTA channels. I NEED an OTA tuner. I receive 25, yes 25, OTA channels (with more to be added) here that blow away D*'s wannabe HD signals. The picture quality is no comparison.
> 
> Whoever wasted all this money developing this "new" HR21 should be fired. The money D* spent on this should have been spent on fixing the HR20. The bottom line is that it costs more to have two of virtually the same receivers in support, distribution, etc... The extra $50.00 for OTA tuners saved is not being passed on to the customer. When was the last time we got a price REDUCTION on our bills? No it goes into the shareholders and executive's pockets just like all other big greedy corporations in America. Can you say made in China or Mexico?
> 
> Whatever.... Just my rambling thoughts.


I totally agree with you. The HR21 looks to be just a minor revision to their existing devices. It appears the main goal with the HR21 is to reduce the cost of the receivers rather than creating a superior product so that D* can have larger profit margins.

From a consumer standpoint, I would have much rather have seen improvements in the following areas.

Software 
1) The ability to add an eSata drive for increased storage capacity in addition to the HD that is already in the device rather than losing the capacity space of the built in HD when an external eSata drive is attached.
2) Tivo style wishlist search functionality
3) PiP support to watch multiple channels at once.
4) Dual Buffer Support so that you can flip between two channels and still can rewind/pause/forward etc. just like in the old school Tivo Receivers.
5) Windows Media Extender support so that the receiver can act as an extender to a windows media center pc.
6) Interlink support through ethernet / wifi between receivers so that multiple receivers could share to-do lists / content. (i.e. Watching content on Receiver B that is actually stored on Receiver A; streaming of content between receivers)

Hardware
1) Larger Harddrive
2) More than 2 tuners 
3) Wifi Support

I could list a myriad more features but I'll spare you the rest.


----------



## gully_foyle

azarby said:


> Ther is no OTA at all. The is nothing that diplexing or anything else that can be done to make it happen. The physical tuners do not exist.
> 
> bob


Unless there is a front-end chip other than the BCM4501, there is no way to get OTA at all. No 8VSB demodulator even if you did have something to get OTA to baseband.

Which is too bad, as most everyone in an urban area has buckets of OTA signals.

Given that this box clearly has more capability than the HR20, it's a bit annoying that they've made the decision to eliminate OTA. Even if D* supplies every last local station, I dislike putting all my eggs in this one basket. Rain fade, sunspots, or technical problems at just the wrong time are possible, if not likely.

Damn the NAB and LiL. I've never understood why we need 300 copies of CBS.


----------



## azarby

bertman64 said:


> When it is pouring down rain like here in Dallas area Sunday night all Satellite channels went out but all HD channels from antenna still came in fine so that is one of many reasons it should still have an OTA tuner!


You still have that choice, HR20. It's not going anywhere soon.

Bob


----------



## P Smith

RobertE said:


> Sorry to disappoint, but its the 7401 under the heat sink.


Thanks, I got it now.


----------



## kevinturcotte

So is this the end of the line for OTA tuners being included in receivers, or will we eventually see an "HR22" with an OTA tuner?


----------



## RamaX

spoonman said:


> It works great, I have hooked a PS3 to mine.


If (and thats a big IF) If you have a 1080P TV, then why would you do this, if the HR21 doesnt do 1080P

(like i said, its a huge IF, but i know theres plenty of people out there who have 1080P TVs and want them to understand why i wouldnt htink this is a good idea


----------



## cebbigh

Not sure if I just missed it in the earlier posts but how many HD programs will this be able to record/view at the same time?

I have an install set for new DTV service scheduled for 10/24 and it includes 2 HD DVR's. One of the questions in the online ordering was if I already have an OTA antenna set up. As I answered yes I think the chances are even greater that I will be getting HR20's.


----------



## Koz

cebbigh said:


> Not sure if I just missed it in the earlier posts but how many HD programs will this be able to record/view at the same time?
> 
> I have an install set for new DTV service scheduled for 10/24 and it includes 2 HD DVR's. One of the questions in the online ordering was if I already have an OTA antenna set up. As I answered yes I think the chances are even greater that I will be getting HR20's.


The HR21 can record 2 total live programs of any type (SD or HD, OTA or over sat) at the same time just like the HR20.


----------



## rsblaski

Koz said:


> The HR21 can record 2 total live programs of any type (SD or HD, OTA or over sat) at the same time just like the HR20.


I think you may need to edit. Record OTA?


----------



## spoonman

RamaX said:


> If (and thats a big IF) If you have a 1080P TV, then why would you do this, if the HR21 doesn't do 1080P
> 
> (like i said, its a huge IF, but i know theres plenty of people out there who have 1080P TVs and want them to understand why i wouldnt htink this is a good idea


Huh? My HR21 and PS3 are hooked to a 1080P TV. The second network port doesn't have anything to do with the TV resolution or prevent me from using my PS3 in 1080P.


----------



## cebbigh

rsblaski said:


> I think you may need to edit. Record OTA?


It's ok as far as I am concerned I get the gist of what he was saying. Actually clears a misunderstanding I had concerning the HR20's capabilities too. I thought I'd read that the HR20 could record only one program off the sat at a time regardless of what was being recorded OTA (1 or 2). It will take me a while to learn the ins and outs of the new equipment.


----------



## arxaw

cebbigh said:


> I thought I'd read that the HR20 could record only one program off the sat at a time regardless of what was being recorded OTA (1 or 2).


The HR20 has 2 tuners, both with sat/OTA recording capability. 
You can record two shows at a time:
A. Two sat channels, 
B. Two OTA channels 
C. One sat + one OTA channel.

You can also watch a previously recorded show while recording two other shows.

</ot>


----------



## MikeR

Doug Brott said:


> Nonetheless, the 7401 is the powerhouse .





RamaX said:


> If (and thats a big IF) If you have a 1080P TV, then why would you do this, if the HR21 doesnt do 1080P
> 
> (like i said, its a huge IF, but i know theres plenty of people out there who have 1080P TVs and want them to understand why i wouldnt htink this is a good idea


The 7401 supports 1080p 24/30 output formats (taken from the Product Brief)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MikeR said:


> The 7401 supports 1080p 24/30 output formats (taken from the Product Brief)


Yes, the CPU chip can support it, but you also need other DVR components active at 1080p as well - none are are activated to do so, as there are no 1080p broadcasts receivable at this time.

If and when the time comes, it will be interesting to see if a firmware update can activate the upgrade to 1080p.


----------



## raven56706

Since Directv doesnt offer PBS HD and CW HD.... i will keep my hr20


----------



## LameLefty

I'm not going to get further drawn into the debate, but I will say this: I have had DirecTV since 1997. I have never, in that entire time, been the slightest bit interested in OTA. My HR20 has had the inputs activated since late last year and I've never connected them. I just don't want or need that capability (*) and I don't want the hassle of trying to make it work. 

Therefore, the HR21 is perfect for me and consumers like me. I frankly can't wait to get another one for my master bedroom so I have an excuse to add and HD flat panel in that room too. 

(*) Disclaimer: the OTA towers are all 30+ miles from my house, in different azimuths. I would have to have a decent sized antenna + signal booster + rotor to ensure optimum reception. What a PITA. I'll stick with my AT-9 instead.


----------



## Red Dwarf

My major problem with Direct's line of new HD PVRs is no 30 second skip button. It may sound like a small thing but on my Dish 622, the paint is worn off I use it so much. Sure you can FF but it's just not the same. 
Football is a great example of the strenght of the skip feature. Unless they are running a hurry up offense 30 seconds is about the time it takes for the players to reset and line up. You can watch a game in little over an hour.
I would think skipping ads is one of the major reasons to have a PVR. The 30 second skip was on the TIVO units, and I think it's a major mistake on Direct's part for not offering it. Does this new reciever have it?


----------



## MikeR

Red Dwarf said:


> My major problem with Direct's line of new HD PVRs is no 30 second skip button. Does this new reciever have it?


The HR20 and HR21 (and R15) have a 30 second _slip_ button. I prefer the slip, but many don't.

Edit: Nevermind...I see you already know about the slip/skip implementation.

Anyways -

Great job on the first look!!


----------



## ATARI

Great work guys!!

I'm hoping all future first looks will be in this format.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

I think that everyone has put there two cents in on OTA and the HR21. This same discussion was beat to death when the H21-200 was introduced for the first time, and THANK YOU DBSTalk.com very much for this awesome website and opportunity's for first looks on new equipment, so lets just give the OTA a rest and accept the fact that D* makes equipment without OTA now and equipment with OTA. If you need OTA, make sure you tell the CSR when ordering that equipment.

Good job HR21-700 team and thanks for your volunteered time to test, writing issues, making sure that we get good equipment, and big thanks to DBSTalk.com for a first look at the HR21-700. We sure hope this continues to happen so the members of DBSTalk can be well informed.

By the way I did correct my earlier post about the network portion of the HR21...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1219070&postcount=32


----------



## shendley

Just to add my two cents: great review! Very professional looking. But I was curious about the faster mpeg4 processor. Did this make any aspect of viewing an mpeg4 broadcast (whether in PQ, trick play or what have you) discernibly better than on the current 20?


----------



## gcisko

Nice job guys! 

The biggest shocker for me is the lack of OTA on the HR21. I would never have guessed that. Does anyone know why? Even though I gat my locals via the sat, I still get some channels (11-1) that I routinely record via my OTA. So I have come to appreciate this capability of the HR20.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

gcisko said:


> Nice job guys!
> 
> The biggest shocker for me is the lack of OTA on the HR21. I would never have guessed that. Does anyone know why? Even though I gat my locals via the sat, I still get some channels (11-1) that I routinely record via my OTA. So I have come to appreciate this capability of the HR20.


No we don't know why.


----------



## gcisko

Spanky_Partain said:


> I think that everyone has put there two cents in on OTA and the HR21. This same discussion was beat to death when the H21-200 was introduced for the first time, and THANK YOU DBSTalk.com very much for this awesome website and opportunity's for first looks on new equipment, so lets just give the OTA a rest and accept the fact that D* makes equipment without OTA now and equipment with OTA.


Sorry but I disagree. I am affraid the HR21 is leaning towards not offering and supporting OTA through their units. It would have been easier for them to offer a HD DVR without OTA I would think. So to offer one via the HR20 then to remove OTA on the next model number is a troubling trend IMHO. I can well imagine needing a replacement only to find they do not offer that model anymore. It happened to me via my cell phone provider and the replacement insurance. They did not replace my phone with an exact model, it was an aproximation. That would be why I am a little concerned here.


----------



## sat4r

Excellent review guys! I have to have one of these to replace my H20-100 since I dont use OTA in my computer room. Thanks AL


----------



## skyviewmark1

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There will continue to be both the HR20 and HR21 models.
> 
> For those who don't want or need OTA, they'll go with the HR21 HD DVR.
> 
> For those who "need" or want OTA, they'll go with the HR20 HD DVR.
> 
> This is consistent with what they've done in the H21 and H20 HD receiver lines.


Wrong Answer.. I just ordered today.. Was told by my supplier that the H20 was no longer available. All I can get is the H21. This is a major blunder since we don't have HD LIL here. If they do this with the HR21 our area is screwed. I am going to have some upset new customers. This tuner being left out is one of the stupidest moves I have ever seen. No Price decrease. Just less of a receiver.


----------



## say-what

gcisko said:


> The biggest shocker for me is the lack of OTA on the HR21. I would never have guessed that. Does anyone know why? Even though I gat my locals via the sat, I still get some channels (11-1) that I routinely record via my OTA. So I have come to appreciate this capability of the HR20.


It saves some on costs and there are many subscribers who don't need or want OTA so you don't need to include that on every box made. Even for me where I still use OTA for some of my locals not provided in HD by DirecTV (PBS mainly), it's not an issue on the HR21 which is not my main system. In fact, I'd have no problem with only having my main HR20 w/ OTA and using an HR21 in both secondary locations in my house.


----------



## Chris Blount

say-what said:


> It saves some on costs and there are many subscribers who don't need or want OTA so you don't need to include that on every box made. Even for me where I still use OTA for some of my locals not provided in HD by DirecTV (PBS mainly), it's not an issue on the HR21 which is not my main system. In fact, I'd have no problem with only having my main HR20 w/ OTA and using an HR21 in both secondary locations in my house.


I agree. DirecTV is just thinking ahead. The HR21 is great for customers who don't need OTA. Also, it's simple plug and play for installers.

With the current HD push, most if not all locals will be via satellite at some point in the future making OTA obsolete.

In terms of PQ, I personally can no longer tell the difference between OTA and satellite HD. If they took away my HR20 tomorrow and replaced it with a HR21, I would only be missing PBS which is spotty OTA reception at best at least in my situation.

The HR21 will save DirecTV a few buck in hardware while making it easier for the customer to receive HD locals. A win-win for all parties involved.


----------



## dxdenis02

great review... how can i get one as i prefer the piano black and do not need OTA


----------



## hdtvfan0001

skyviewmark1 said:


> Wrong Answer.. I just ordered today.. Was told by my supplier that the H20 was no longer available. All I can get is the H21. This is a major blunder since we don't have HD LIL here. This tuner being left out is one of the stupidest moves I have ever seen.


I guess everyone decided to ignore the plea a few posts back (#207) to end the OTA banter. 

While there may be *periodic* shortages of certain models in certain areas, D*TV intends to continue both OTA and non-OTA receiver and DVR support. There is no blunder. Demand for all HD equipment has been high all year and growing. The stampede to move everything to HD by 2009 continues, causing occasional lapses in adaquete supplies based on demand. I saw stacks of the H20-100's at Best Buy here just this weekend.

By the way, when you asked about the H20 reciever, I'm assuming you knew that there are 2 versions - the H20-600 or the newer H20-100 model and asked for either one (with OTA).

*Can we finally put a lid on the OTA topic - it is irrelevant to this thread. The HR21 does not feature OTA. That was by design. *

The HR21-700 terrifically satisfies the majority of the market who neither needs nor wishes that particular feature, includes updated newer hardware and chipsets, while reducing manufacturing costs slightly for that particular unit.

:backtotop

With the faster processors, improved MPEG-4 chipset, dual network ports, quieter and cooler operation, neat black color, and many other improvements, there are *plenty *of relevant and great things to post about.


----------



## gcisko

Chris Blount said:


> With the current HD push, most if not all locals will be via satellite at some point in the future making OTA obsolete.


Really. I have not heard this from D* at all. Do you have some new info about this? I would like to see this implemented, but your statement here is the first I have seen on this topic.


----------



## bobnielsen

Where are all the posts complaing that the D11, R15, etc., don't have an OTA tuner? Lots of folks were viewing satellite channels before there were any LiLs and there wasn't this big protest at the time. When the spotbeams on D10 and D11 are activated, many more locals will be carried in HD. Maybe not all (thanks to LIN and a few others), but the situation will be quite different than it is today. They should be able to squeeze several more into the Spaceways, as well.

Perhaps that scenario is behind the lack of OTA tuners in the HR21 (and let's not forget that the HR20 is still available).


----------



## Button Pusher

drx792 said:


> excellent job guys!!
> 
> ..............now wouldnt it be funny if this got a CE before hundrednation got their next one :lol:


No it wouldn't be that funny!

Great job guys! Thanks for testing the HR21 for D* to give us all a good unit to use. I would love to have an HR21-700 to go with my shiny Aquos. It would match the shiny cabinet very well. I hope when I go to add a DVR soon,they will be available. The silver HR20-100 sticks out a little now in the Home Theater.


----------



## Chris Blount

gcisko said:


> Really. I have not heard this from D* at all. Do you have some new info about this? I would like to see this implemented, but your statement here is the first I have seen on this topic.


No, I do not have any concrete info. It's speculative at this point. I'm just looking at the big picture. D* is making progress in HD expansion and it's obvious that they don't plan to stop.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gcisko said:


> Really. I have not heard this from D* at all. Do you have some new info about this? I would like to see this implemented, but your statement here is the first I have seen on this topic.


DirecTV has stated that the combination of the two new SATs will support 1500 HD LiL's...

Where do you think those 1500 are going to come from?

DirecTV has all intentions of adding the additional LiL's that are carrying HD content to the available lineup.

The biggest problem (past bandwith) they have..... is getting some of these affiliates to agree to a carraige contract.


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yes, the CPU chip can support it, but you also need other DVR components active at 1080p as well - none are are activated to do so, as there are no 1080p broadcasts receivable at this time.
> 
> If and when the time comes, it will be interesting to see if a firmware update can activate the upgrade to 1080p.


I'm disagree by two major points:
- the device are capable to do 1080p 24 or 30 fps - the chip is provide DVR functions also;
- produce 1080p/24 would be possible when encoders will turn off 3:2 conversion for movie source.

Difference in bandwidth between 1080i/60 and 1080p/24 insignificant for discussion.


----------



## tonyd79

Doug Brott said:


> I wish I actually had numbers to back it up. The only reference I have seen was from an installer that said the non-OTA to OTA ratio is about 40:1. Granted that may be in an area served by HD locals, but regardless, I still think we are talking percentages here.


I've written before and I will write again that the information is probably skewed by the fact that DirecTV makes it very hard to even order OTA. They try to disuade customers from using it when ordering installations and even when it is on the work order customers get a run-around from the installers.

I think the writing is on the wall for OTA and DirecTV. No one will disuade me from thinking it is going away. The amount of time that the H20 and H21 have been on the market together is not long enough to say DirecTV has a commitment to it in the slightest.


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> DirecTV has stated that the combination of the two new SATs will support 1500 HD LiL's...
> 
> Where do you think those 1500 are going to come from?
> 
> DirecTV has all intentions of adding the additional LiL's that are carrying HD content to the available lineup.
> 
> The biggest problem (past bandwith) they have..... is getting some of these affiliates to agree to a carraige contract.


So for Chicago (as an example) you are saying the following may eventually be available via the satellite?

(why is there no 2-2?) 
5-2
7-2, 7-3
9-2
11-1, 11-2, 11-3, 11-4
20-1
26-1
50-1

As in any of the above that would carry HD content will eventually be added? For me it would make the OTA concern go away.


----------



## tonyd79

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess everyone decided to ignore the plea a few posts back (#207) to end the OTA banter.


Maybe because the plea is coming from folks who don't see OTA as an issue?

And it is a mistake to ask to end it. This is MARKET information for DirecTV. Or should the customer just shut up and take what is given? Not exactly in the spirit of this forum where we provide FEEDBACK to DirecTV.

Lack of a feature on a new unit is open game for discussing the new unit. Or should we just marvel over the blackness of the box?


----------



## kalrith

I plan to subscribe to D* HD in the near future. AFAIK the HR20 can be set to "native" so that channels will be passed to the TV in the resolution in which they are broadcast (i.e. 720p or 1080i) without the STB doing any scaling of its own. Can the HR21 be set to "native" as well?

Thanks


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gcisko said:


> So for Chicago (as an example) you are saying the following may eventually be available via the satellite?
> 
> (why is there no 2-2?)
> 5-2
> 7-2, 7-3
> 9-2
> 11-1, 11-2, 11-3, 11-4
> 20-1
> 26-1
> 50-1
> 
> As in any of the above that would carry HD content will eventually be added? For me it would make the OTA concern go away.


Doubtfull any sub-channels will be availble. 
As they don't carry an HD content... and if IIRC, the way it works... you won't be able to carry more then one HD stream on a frequency (because of space).... especially the sub-channels that are the weather based ones...

11-1 will eventually be available (PBS)... if DirecTV and PBS can work out carraige agreements
20-1 doesn't have HD content
26-1 Does and I would expect it to be carried 
50-1 is capable of HD content, but since they went from UPN to MyNetwork... I am not sure if they have any HD content yet.

There is no 2-2 as of today, as WBBM doesn't carry any content on their sub-channels (Their choice)... WBBM did at a time, carry alternate feeds for NCAA Tourney coverage... but I am not sure if they did that last year or not.

So with that said... yes, some people are going to what OTA, especially if they need the sub-channels that are offered...

But given the 4+ years that I have had OTA active... I have maybe spent a total of a few hours on one of the sub-channels (primarily the 2-2 when it was available to watch other NCAA coverage)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

kalrith said:


> I plan to subscribe to D* HD in the near future. AFAIK the HR20 can be set to "native" so that channels will be passed to the TV in the resolution in which they are broadcast (i.e. 720p or 1080i) without the STB doing any scaling of its own. Can the HR21 be set to "native" as well?
> 
> Thanks


Yes...

Again (noted earlier on in this thread, but may have been "lost")
For pretty much all aspects of functionality of the unit:

HR21 = HR20 - ATSC


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> I'm disagree by two major points:
> - the device are capable to do 1080p 24 or 30 fps - the chip is provide DVR functions also;
> - produce 1080p/24 would be possible when encoders will turn off 3:2 conversion for movie source.
> 
> Difference in bandwidth between 1080i/60 and 1080p/24 insignificant for discussion.


It's also dependent on the firmware.


----------



## ric97

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *Can we finally put a lid on the OTA topic - it is irrelevant to this thread. The HR21 does not feature OTA. That was by design. *
> 
> The HR21-700 terrifically satisfies the majority of the market who neither needs nor wishes that particular feature, includes updated newer hardware and chipsets, while reducing manufacturing costs slightly for that particular unit.


I agree...there is nothing we can do about it not having OTA...I for one am not interested in the HR21...when the heavy rain rolls thru...the OTA is far more reliable. I hope the HR22 will return the OTA to an awesome system.

I am off this thread. Back to the HR20...


----------



## flhxi

Only 3 of my 7 local HD channels are on Direct TV so the off air tuner is VERY important to me. There are also sub channels that I watch quite often that will never be available. So for me the HR21 would make a great paper weight but would be good for little more than that.


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It's also dependent on the firmware.


As I'm aware it not require FW modifications, if there will be 1080p/24 direct stream from movie source when encoders turn off 3:2 conversion and your 1080p TV set is capable to accept 1080p/24 from HDMI input. It was tested in a lab.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> As I'm aware it not require FW modifications, if there will be 1080p/24 direct stream from movie source when encoders turn off 3:2 conversion and your 1080p TV set is capable to accept 1080p/24 from HDMI input. It was tested in a lab.


I'm not sure just what you're asking.

I've seen them just show up for pre-sale at Solid Signal, so perhaps you might want to order one and share your findings of the "innards".

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HR21

By the way, I've opened an HR21 technical questions thread, if you're interested:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=105248


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm not sure just what you're asking.
> <...>


That wasn't a question .


----------



## Blitz68

Is this unit made buy Pace or RCA?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Blitz68 said:


> Is this unit made buy Pace or RCA?


-700

PACE


----------



## highheater

1. Remove local channels as an option and give to everyone whether they want them or not.

2. Fold in the optional local channel fee for everyone.

3. Spend tons of bandwidth to provide local channels that everyone could get OTA.

4. Take out the OTA tuner out of your latest reciever to 'save costs' incurred by doing #3.

5. Provide a compressed sat local channel that is inferior to the OTA signal.

All of this because people are ignorant or too lazy to use the INPUT button on their remote.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Yawn:

1) It is still an option, you can call and have it removed if you don't want to pay for it.
2) See #1
3) Umm... if it wasn't for "Must Carry Laws" and the arcaic "affiliate" model of local television... we wouldn't have to have 300+ "copies" of the same programming in the data feeds... 5 times over (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, CW)
4) Yes... they are saving money in the hardware and support costs
5) I still don't see the MPEG-4 HD feed... as "inferior" to the OTA... and in fact, in my case it is superior... as I can't receive one of the OTA stations... but I can get it on the SAT...


----------



## highheater

These HD channels that Direct TV are just rolling out now could have been delivered years ago if they didn't use over half of their bandwidth for local channels for so long.

Enjoy my HD OTA now. Looking to upgrade my Direct TV reciever to HD now that DTV has gotten serious. Those upgrade packages all include things that I don't need or don't pay for now due to grandfathered items (no locals, Golf Channel included in Sports package without Plus). 

I'd happily look forward to dropping my local channels out of any new HD package and get a $ 3 credit but I don't think that is possible. 

The OTA tuner in the HR 20 reciever could also be used as a second input to HDTVs with Picture-in-Picture.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

highheater said:


> These HD channels that Direct TV are just rolling out now could have been delivered years ago if they didn't use over half of their bandwidth for local chanels for so long.
> 
> Enjoy my HD OTA now. Looking to upgrade my Direct TV reciever to HD now that DTV has gotten serious. Those upgrade packages all include things that I don't need or don't pay for now due to grandfathered items (no locals, Golf Channel included in Sports package without Plus).
> 
> I'd happily look forward to dropping my local channels out of any new HD package and get a $ 3 credit but I don't think that is possible.
> 
> The OTA tuner in the HR 20 reciever could also be used as a second input to HDTVs with Picture-in-Picture.


If you look historically... at the two DBS providers...
They really became true "players" when they started to offer the locals....
Why? Because people only wanted to deal with ONE source, not multiple.

Then the laws/regulations for "Must Carry" came around.......

Call DirecTV... you can remove your Locals from your package.


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> But given the 4+ years that I have had OTA active... I have maybe spent a total of a few hours on one of the sub-channels (primarily the 2-2 when it was available to watch other NCAA coverage)


Thanks for the info!

The 11-1 OTA I get now, I tend to record several (over 4) hours per week. So my experience is a little different.


----------



## rawilson

So in March, my local CBS affiliate (WRAL in Raleigh, NC) puts all the NCAA tournament games on its alternate channels (5-1, 5-2, 5-3, 5-4). I do not get all of those in my locals package from D*...only the 5-1 content. While I can receive all the channels OTA using an antenna, I'd very much miss the DVR functionality.

That said, I'd still trade built-in OTA for DLB any day.

If by some miracle, D* has included DLB in the HR21, what are the chances they'd let me "trade up" from my HR20?


----------



## say-what

rawilson said:


> If by some miracle, D* has included DLB in the HR21, what are the chances they'd let me "trade up" from my HR20?


No DLB and if it were to become available, it would most likely be added to all of their HD DVR's. As for a "trade up," sure, you can always trade up if you're willing to pay the required costs. Not going to get one for free though.


----------



## Jeremy W

say-what said:


> No DLB


Hey, we're not supposed to talk about the software! :lol:


----------



## gcisko

highheater said:


> 5. Provide a compressed sat local channel that is inferior to the OTA signal.


What is the source of your facts of this statement? This has been discussed many times here. I have both OTA and HD via the SAT, you cannot see a difference.


----------



## gcisko

highheater said:


> Enjoy my HD OTA now. Looking to upgrade my Direct TV reciever to HD now that DTV has gotten serious.


So you are calling the HD via the satillite inferior, but you do not even have it yet so do not really know. Excuse me, but you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

*How is that for some high heat *:hurah:


----------



## Jaysv

For those of us without HD LiL, we need the OTA tuners to receive our local Hd programing. Currently it seems that we will be able to do so via the HR20 for some time, however I don't think it's unjustified for us to raise some concern of the longterm future availability of a Directv HD DVR with OTA tuners. If we work on the assumption that Directv knows how many HR20s are utilizing the OTA connection, and the fact that this information was likely used to decided to spend the development dollars on a unit without OTA capabilities, meaning that it's not likely that a large percentage are using it, then, we may not a large enough percentage to warrant the continued production of the HR20 model. If so, at some point we may lose current functionality, less functionality for the same price doesn't sound like a deal to me.


----------



## Jeremy W

Jaysv said:


> For those of us without HD LiL, we need the OTA tuners to receive our local Hd programing.


Wow, it's a good thing you brought this up. Nobody has raised this concern yet in the thread.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> Wow, it's a good thing you brought this up. Nobody has raised this concern yet in the thread.


Careful, Jeremy - you're getting testy. :lol:


----------



## Jaysv

Jeremy W said:


> Wow, it's a good thing you brought this up. Nobody has raised this concern yet in the thread.


Well you know the squeaky wheel theory, and I believe I provided adequate justification for our concern.


----------



## stogie5150

...and STILL no DLB. :nono: 

...and no explanation WHY. :nono: 

Dish Network is looking better and better by the day.

Oh, BTW, very nice writeup. Very well done.


----------



## Jeremy W

stogie5150 said:


> Dish Network is looking better and better by the day.


What are you waiting for? With all of those new HD channels they just launched, they can't be beat!

Oh, wait...


----------



## LameLefty

Jaysv said:


> Well you know the squeaky wheel theory . . .


Just remember, every internet forum contains a disproportionate number of people who need to air complaints or grievances. I'm sure Directv understands this very well.

That said, my neighborhood (not the most exclusive in town by any means but definitely nicer than most) is filled with fairly nice homes ranging from 1,800 - 3,000 square feet, and good number of dishes - and not a single OTA antenna. Comcast understands this part too, as does Directv.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

stogie5150 said:


> ...and STILL no DLB. :nono:
> 
> ...and no explanation WHY. :nono:
> 
> Oh, BTW, very nice writeup. Very well done.


Dual Buffers is a feature independent of a specific device. Once D*TV decides to offer it, it will be offered on all HD DVR's.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

stogie5150 said:


> ...and STILL no DLB. :nono:


And this is surprising to anyone?

Sorry a lot of you were under the impression that it was a hardware limitation that there was no DLB


----------



## tvjay

Saw this at the new Best Buy the other day......looks nice, but NO OTA means NO GO for me. I am a television engineer for a local station....the only people I trust in severe weather are the local people to keep my TV coming. Plus OTA means I can watch other TV markets than my own (I have a 50 foot tower out back) therefore I can watch Detroit sometimes.


----------



## NOLAmitch

smiddy said:


> :welcome_s
> 
> First, welcome to the forum!
> 
> Second, you'll most likely get the HR20 which has the OTA.


Thanks for the welcome.

The new receiver ended up being an HR20-100 refurb. Looks brand new, and as I understand the -100 version runs cooler, and has an extra Ethernet switch port, I'm quite happy to have the refurbished unit.

Speaking of extra Ethernet switch ports -- I have not read completely through the manual yet, but I expect to complete that this evening -- when connecting the HR20 to the home Ethernet segment, can I then disconnect the phone line. Said another way, does Internet access replace dial-up access when connected?

Regards,
Mitch


----------



## Jaysv

LameLefty said:


> That said, my neighborhood (not the most exclusive in town by any means but definitely nicer than most) is filled with fairly nice homes ranging from 1,800 - 3,000 square feet, and good number of dishes - and not a single OTA antenna. Comcast understands this part too, as does Directv.


My neighborhood as well, even my house, the antenna is in the attic. Which is exactly the point, it's obvious that the number of OTA users isn't large enough to justify continuing to put OTA tuners in every unit, so the remaining question is, are we large enough to warrant putting them in any units. Today perhaps, but as more markets get their HD LiL, probably not.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

NOLAmitch said:


> Speaking of extra Ethernet switch ports -- I have not read completely through the manual yet, but I expect to complete that this evening -- when connecting the HR20 to the home Ethernet segment, can I then disconnect the phone line. Said another way, does Internet access replace dial-up access when connected?


You are mixing together the purposes of Ethernet and phone line ports...they are 2 totally different things.

The Ethernet ports are for network (wireless or wired) connections (only), and the regular phone jack connection is for the DVR to occasionally contact D*TV if and when you have PPV orders and other very limited service purposes.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

Great piece. Love the pdf format.

- Craig


----------



## bobnielsen

NOLAmitch said:


> Speaking of extra Ethernet switch ports -- I have not read completely through the manual yet, but I expect to complete that this evening -- when connecting the HR20 to the home Ethernet segment, can I then disconnect the phone line. Said another way, does Internet access replace dial-up access when connected?


No, but it could in the future. The phone line is really only needed for ordering PPV via the remote and that function could easily be performed with an internet connection.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Great piece. Love the pdf format.
> 
> - Craig


Coming from the "Master of Undocumented Wonders" that you are, this is quite a compliment. Thanks.


----------



## Knon2000

I personally would LOVE to have this as a second receiver on the main TV. There are many times that 2 tuners just don't cut it. For my purposes, I currently use OTA for all primetime recordings since I don't have HD LIL's as of yet. However, when I do get conflicts with 2 recordings, it is usually with Comedy Central, or SciFi. so in these cases, it would work perfectly. Count me in as a future purchaser, at least when it comes available for the mainstream user.


----------



## rawilson

Jaysv said:


> My neighborhood as well, even my house, the antenna is in the attic. Which is exactly the point, it's obvious that the number of OTA users isn't large enough to justify continuing to put OTA tuners in every unit, so the remaining question is, are we large enough to warrant putting them in any units. Today perhaps, but as more markets get their HD LiL, probably not.


Same here...in fact, but I have one of those little set top jobs sitting beside my TV. I get many more digital (not all HD) channels than I ever imagined existed. Local channels broadcast 24-hr local news (I know, but it's THERE) and weather. PBS has a kids' channel. I have like 5 Spanish channels (again, it's THERE)...none of which can be found on D*. I am very pleased that the HR20 lets me "DVR" those channels.


----------



## LameLefty

Jaysv said:


> My neighborhood as well, even my house, the antenna is in the attic.


Except that in my area, you can only do that if your attic is big enough for not only a decent-sized antenna, but also one that can be mounted on a rotor. The towers are 30 - 35 miles away through semi-hilly terrain AND (here's the kicker) not on the same azimuth from our town. So if you want to get them all and get them reliably, you have to be able to rotate the antenna. Most people don't have big enough attics for that, nor the urge to rig up such a shining example of 1970's technology (something my grandparents had to do, I'll point out).



> Which is exactly the point, it's obvious that the number of OTA users isn't large enough to justify continuing to put OTA tuners in every unit, so the remaining question is, are we large enough to warrant putting them in any units. Today perhaps, but as more markets get their HD LiL, probably not.


And here's the key thing: nothing anyone can point to seriously indicates that OTA-capable receivers are being phased out completely. De-emphasized? Possibly. Heck, I'll even say it's likely. That said, it's far more likely that "standard HD upgrades" at some point will include an H(R)21 or some future H(R)xx receiver that is not OTA-capable, but that a "premium upgrade" or some other deal will be required if you want an OTA-capable box plus help rigging up the antenna. Most installers would typically have a truck full of non-OTA receivers and perhaps one or two OTA-capable ones just in case, or have access to a few of them in a warehouse for such non-standard installation jobs.

Of course, this is entirely speculation on my part but it would make sense.


----------



## flipptyfloppity

gcisko said:


> What is the source of your facts of this statement? This has been discussed many times here. I have both OTA and HD via the SAT, you cannot see a difference.


I can see the difference. But it's very minor. On any show except those that provide the best quality HD image (like CSI:Vegas), it's unnoticeable. Thus I record almost all my HD network shows off the satellite, taking advantage of the smaller H.264 encoding.

On the biggest scale, the image deficiencies in both version due to the original MPEG2 lacking bandwidth for fast pans is far more noticeable than the additional degradation on the HD SAT locals due to reduction in horizontal resolution and tighter compression.

I prefer to have OTA available to me, but if it were not, I would be satisfied with the HD SAT locals.

And again, I do not condemn the mere existence of the HR21, it's a great unit for 90% of customers, which is plenty enough reason to justify its existence even if the unit cost is only slightly lower.


----------



## highheater

gcisko said:


> So you are calling the HD via the satillite inferior, but you do not even have it yet so do not really know. Excuse me, but you do not have a clue what you are talking about.
> 
> *How is that for some high heat *:hurah:


Nice taunt ... but if you'd spend some time over in the AVS Forum you'd see all the complaints about poor HD from Direct TV. Especially in comparison to FIOS. Poor sourcing is the number one excuse offered for poor picture perfromance on even the most expensive HDTVs. If you think Direct TV HD is the Holy Grail of HD then you really don't know what you are talking about.

Wasn't it bad enough that Direct TV got sued over whether their compressed HD was really HD? Or was that just someone's imagination?

I have numerous friends that have HD with Direct TV and I've been very unimpressed. I'm hoping the new sats will help the situation. Perhaps things will be better. But I'm not encouraged if they continue to compress their signals to allow the broadcasting of 1000+ locals in the future.

As far as getting competitive with cable when they decided to offer 'locals'. Instead I'd think they would have left cable in the dust if they offered all these HD stations two years ahead of cable with that extra bandwidth.

Have a nice day.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

highheater said:


> Nice taunt ... As far as getting competitive with cable when they decided to offer 'locals'. Instead I'd think they would have left cable in the dust if they offered all these HD stations two years ahead of cable with that extra bandwidth.
> 
> Have a nice day.


I used to go there on occasion...and then realized *DBSTalk was the only place *that had accurate and valuable information about D*TV, not propaganda, rumors, and the like. 

:backtotop


----------



## say-what

highheater said:


> if you'd spend some time over in the AVS Forum you'd see all the complaints about poor HD from Direct TV. Especially in comparison to FIOS. Poor sourcing is the number one excuse offered for poor picture perfromance on even the most expensive HDTVs. If you think Direct TV HD is the Holy Grail of HD then you really don't know what you are talking about.


There tend to be too many people who are hyper-critical of everything at AVS and hence why I tend to take most things posted there with a grain of salt.


> Wasn't it bad enough that Direct TV got sued over whether their compressed HD was really HD? Or was that just someone's imagination?


Anyone can file a lawsuit, the question is whether or not it was successful.


> I have numerous friends that have HD with Direct TV and I've been very unimpressed. I'm hoping the new sats will help the situation.


By this statement, you imply that you have not seen the new mpeg4 channels. Their quality is excellent.


> As far as getting competitive with cable when they decided to offer 'locals'. Instead I'd think they would have left cable in the dust if they offered all these HD stations two years ahead of cable with that extra bandwidth.


They really had no choice when it came to broadcasting locals - the Feds pretty much mandated local carriage. Go blame your Congressman and the local broadcasters' lobby for that one.



> Have a nice day.


I have that under control.


----------



## rahlquist

labk88 said:


> 1) The ability to add an eSata drive for increased storage capacity in addition to the HD that is already in the device rather than losing the capacity space of the built in HD when an external eSata drive is attached.


I will give you an amen on that, the way it works now is beyond stupid. Sorry but thats my opinion.


----------



## simpleton604

Spanky_Partain said:


> According to the Product Brief it is niether one, it is 1.1 according to the brief.


horrible, when will get 1.3 hdmi on an hd directv dvr ? so we can use them with our new hdmi 1.3 tv's


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rahlquist said:


> I will give you an amen on that, the way it works now is beyond stupid. Sorry but thats my opinion.


So.... should the eSATA support we have today... be shut off? and not available... until they resolve the "stupid" method that it is today... ?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

simpleton604 said:


> horrible, when will get 1.3 hdmi on an hd directv dvr ? so we can use them with our new hdmi 1.3 tv's


What major advantage are you going to get out of HDMI 1.3 when the systems have to still be backwards compatible with HDMI 1.0 systems?


----------



## flipptyfloppity

Earl Bonovich said:


> What major advantage are you going to get out of HDMI 1.3 when the systems have to still be backwards compatible with HDMI 1.0 systems?


Honestly, the biggest things we could get are:

1. Selectable pre-decoded multichannel out. If the audio were decoded in the device, it would be easier to mix in the sound effects or such. It also would help the audio modes switch quicker on some amps because detection of the format of multichannel in S/PDIF (compressed) format can be tricky and somewhat slow.

This would be of limited value in the short term since most people don't have amps that device multichannel audio on HDMI.

2. Audio and video sync signals. HDMI 1.3 devices can output signals to help the A/V processing chain keep the audio and video in sync all the way to preamplification. These are ignored by older devices, but not disruptive or incompatible.

Both would be nice, but I wouldn't delay buying (leasing!) a new PVR to wait for HDMI 1.3 to get them.

I'd take 1080p/60 (upconverted from source format) over either of them. I want to view 720p and 1080i with no loss of spatial or temporal resolution without having to go to native mode and thus have my TV turn black for 2 seconds when switching channels.


----------



## rahlquist

Earl Bonovich said:


> So.... should the eSATA support we have today... be shut off? and not available... until they resolve the "stupid" method that it is today... ?


Now now Earl I said it was stupid I didnt say cut off the existing till they get it working in a more adequate manner. So allow me to qualify the stupid;

Ive been in IT for 13 years, as a network admin, system designer, and currently an application developer/systems analyst. I'm familiar with more OS's than most average folk even know exist. (not bragging just trying to establish I'm not some twit with a shiny new packard bell 486)

I dont know what electronic or logistic issues are involved in the esata interface in these units but I do know that PATA in the Tivo DVR's was quite capable of running multiple devices. I know the software for the HRXX-XXX series has been an uphill battle, but surely by now they must be close to a solution that works. Even if its an "out of band" solution like the DVR relocating files to the external drive during low use periods. I know that D* is probably not in a hurry to fix this because the unit works and adding external 3rd party devices is likely to create a huge support headache. Obviously the drivers function, maybe not in tandem with multiple ports, I don't know, but in my opinion disabling the internal drive for recording after the unit boots seems a bit of a hack to me.

So my words may have been harsh but I call em like I see em, even if its not pretty. My apologies if its offensive to you, and D* staff reading the thread or the developers. Take a peek at my blog and you will see its just the way I am.


----------



## billsharpe

Doug Brott said:


> I wish I actually had numbers to back it up. The only reference I have seen was from an installer that said the non-OTA to OTA ratio is about 40:1. Granted that may be in an area served by HD locals, but regardless, I still think we are talking percentages here.


My installer didn't even ask if I wanted OTA. He was anxious to finish and get out. And, yes, I wanted it so that I can record the OTA stations that aren't included in the locals, such as our local PBS HD station. I finally plugged in my OTA antenna lead myself.


----------



## ShiningBengal

highheater said:


> Nice taunt ... but if you'd spend some time over in the AVS Forum you'd see all the complaints about poor HD from Direct TV. Especially in comparison to FIOS. Poor sourcing is the number one excuse offered for poor picture perfromance on even the most expensive HDTVs. If you think Direct TV HD is the Holy Grail of HD then you really don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> Wasn't it bad enough that Direct TV got sued over whether their compressed HD was really HD? Or was that just someone's imagination?
> 
> I have numerous friends that have HD with Direct TV and I've been very unimpressed. I'm hoping the new sats will help the situation. Perhaps things will be better. But I'm not encouraged if they continue to compress their signals to allow the broadcasting of 1000+ locals in the future.
> 
> As far as getting competitive with cable when they decided to offer 'locals'. Instead I'd think they would have left cable in the dust if they offered all these HD stations two years ahead of cable with that extra bandwidth.
> 
> Have a nice day.


MPEG4 on the new satellites is substantially better than MPEG2 on the older ones. I have VERY good display equipment. I also get my locals OTA as well as MPEG4 on my HR20's. If anything, the DirecTV satellite video is better than OTA.

DirecTV is far more than competitive with cable in pricing, and now certainly has the HD package to go with it.

History doesn't matter in making a decision on who has the better value. I'm not a great fan of the HR20 (with the exception of MPEG4 capability). But Comcast isn't going to get my business any time soon. (Even with with TiVo software.)


----------



## cartrivision

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I just can't believe how much a small number of people continue to *crave* OTA. I've had it for 9 years as a backup plan prior to LIL, but now, if it went away tomorrow...it's not that big a deal. Let it go....let it go.....


I'll let it go when D* provides me all my HD locals via the sats.... until then, it IS a big deal.

Since in the second largest market in the country (Los Angeles) we don't have full HD local coverage, I would imagine that the OTA tuners built into the HR20 are a big deal for a lot of people who can get some local channels over the air, but not via satellite.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rahlquist said:


> .....
> but I do know that PATA in the Tivo DVR's was quite capable of running multiple devices.
> ....
> Even if its an "out of band" solution like the DVR relocating files to the external drive during low use periods.


The way TiVo uses the PATA drives (not sure how they are using their newly announced eSATA support)... the PATA's are RAID/Stripped together...
Which with your background... you know what happens when one those drives go down...

Which is greatly increased when one is external.

And yes... they are investigating what way they want to expand the usage of the eSATA.



rahlquist said:


> So my words may have been harsh but I call em like I see em, even if its not pretty. My apologies if its offensive to you, and D* staff reading the thread or the developers. Take a peek at my blog and you will see its just the way I am.


Sorry, my apologize as well... you have caught me on an extremely bad day...


----------



## daniellee

Spanky_Partain said:


> The only thing I would change in the pdf is that the network chipset is a switch, not a pass through. So it is an ethernet port and can be a passive connection and the other port be used as an uplink. It should not matter which one is used for what.
> 
> Attached is a simple diagram of how an HR20 can hook up to a HR21 then to the router.
> 
> Nice and clean document, easy to follow, and well done!
> 
> EDIT
> This should be changed from:
> It should not matter which one is used for what.
> to:
> Port 1 should be the port that gets assigned a static or given the DHCP IP address for the HR21 and plugged into a switch/router or device that is suppying the DHCP address and Port 2 should be used as the uplink to a HR20/HR21/xbox.


To expand on Mark's post&#8230;

Could it be (as Mark suggests) that the ethernet setup in the HR21 (and HR20-600??) is in fact an ethernet switch that has not been fully enabled in the software (2nd external port currently disabled). For instance a 3 port switch with the 1st external port being used as the uplink/cascade port, the 2nd external port currently disabled, and a 3rd internal port hardwired for use by the HR21. This would allow the 2nd external port to eventually act as a "pass-through" as suggested in the First Look write-up and would explain the existence of this mysterious rudimentary 2nd external port that has puzzled so many of us.

Does anyone have more info on this?


----------



## Doug Brott

daniellee said:


> To expand on Mark's post&#8230;
> 
> Could it be (as Mark suggests) that the ethernet setup in the HR21 (and HR20-600??) is in fact an ethernet switch that has not been fully enabled in the software (2nd external port currently disabled). For instance a 3 port switch with the 1st external port being used as the uplink/cascade port, the 2nd external port currently disabled, and a 3rd internal port hardwired for use by the HR21. This would allow the 2nd external port to eventually act as a "pass-through" as suggested in the First Look write-up and would explain the existence of this mysterious rudimentary 2nd external port that has puzzled so many of us.
> 
> Does anyone have more info on this?


I'm pretty sure that (1) the HR20-100 does not have the right hardware chip to do this at all and (2) there are only 2 external ports .. one is uplink and the other is used to daisy-chain to another device. The third, I assume, is internal to the HR21. Based on the chip specs, there are 2 additional ports, but I don't believe there is any hardware to access these ports making them useless.

The concept is great in my mind, in fact, If I had two of these boxes (instead of the two HR20s), I could daisy from my man network center to the first HR21 then to the second HR21 and then to my slingbox. I would no longer have a need for the 4-port switch that I have sitting with my TV & HR20s.


----------



## cartrivision

highheater said:


> 1. Remove local channels as an option and give to everyone whether they want them or not.
> 
> 2. Fold in the optional local channel fee for everyone.
> 
> 3. Spend tons of bandwidth to provide local channels that everyone could get OTA.
> 
> 4. Take out the OTA tuner out of your latest reciever to 'save costs' incurred by doing #3.
> 
> 5. Provide a compressed sat local channel that is inferior to the OTA signal.
> 
> All of this because people are ignorant or too lazy to use the INPUT button on their remote.


Using the input button to switch to your TV's OTA tuner is an incomplete solution. It leaves you without the ability to use the DVR features when watching OTA channels. The HR20's inclusion of OTA tuners is a valuable feature that gives the customer the ability to view and record OTA channels that will never be provided via the satellite input on the DVR. I'm not against making lower cost models without OTA tuners, but it would be a mistake to stop offering models with OTA tuners for the people who can still make good use of it.


----------



## cartrivision

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Great piece. Love the pdf format.
> 
> - Craig


The PDF format is nice, as it allows the "first look" to be save as a single file, but I wish that there was some way that we could also get the larger higher resolution pictures that we got with the previous first look reviews.


----------



## Twister18

Thank you for the reviews.


----------



## LameLefty

> (not bragging just trying to establish I'm not some twit with a shiny new packard bell 486)


I got my first computer in 1980.


----------



## rahlquist

Earl Bonovich said:


> The way TiVo uses the PATA drives (not sure how they are using their newly announced eSATA support)... the PATA's are RAID/Stripped together...
> Which with your background... you know what happens when one those drives go down...
> Which is greatly increased when one is external.
> And yes... they are investigating what way they want to expand the usage of the eSATA.
> Sorry, my apologize as well... you have caught me on an extremely bad day...


We all have bad days Earl, I hope your evening gets better.

As for the drive information yes I was/am aware of the PATA Tivo setup, my hacked series 2 unit is still in the garage, they are nice devices but I have to say other than a few very minor quirks I like my hr20 better.

As for their investigations, how about we suggest to them a flash based boot device and use the hard drive purely for storage of guides and data, and mount the HD in a carrier thats end user replaceable. Some more pipe dreams but you never know


----------



## LameLefty

Twister18 said:


> Thank you for the reviews.


How 'bout for our help field testing this thing?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cartrivision said:


> The PDF format is nice, as it allows the "first look" to be save as a single file, but I wish that there was some way that we could also get the larger higher resolution pictures that we got with the previous first look reviews.


This was something we looked at - making larger pictures, but the overall piece would have been twice the size and in the end, scaled back a bit.

We'll look into the possibility of getting them out in a larger size here somehow.


----------



## rahlquist

LameLefty said:


> I got my first computer in 1980.


I got mine(Atari 400) in 82 when I was 11, by 83 I was hand etching PC boards for the bank switching memory upgrades that folks did to the 800xl. It was quite a time. I can still remember installing a 5MB MFM hard drive in my neighbors BBS ahh now I feel old....


----------



## rahlquist

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This was something we looked at - making larger pictures, but the overall piece would have been twice the size and in the end, scaled back a bit.
> 
> We'll look into the possibility of getting them out in a larger size here somehow.


Why not post them to a torrent, I am sure a few folks around here could help...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rahlquist said:


> Why not post them to a torrent, I am sure a few folks around here could help...


It's not a matter of the "how", its a matter of the proper watermarked versions in a bigger size...logistics on our end...we're looking into it...


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> I got my first computer in 1980.


Yeah, that was DEC-11 or IBM 360.


----------



## LameLefty

rahlquist said:


> I got mine(Atari 400) in 82 when I was 11, by 83 I was hand etching PC boards for the bank switching memory upgrades that folks did to the 800xl. It was quite a time. I can still remember installing a 5MB MFM hard drive in my neighbors BBS ahh now I feel old....


Mine was a Sinclair ZX-81 in late 1980 (IIRC - it may have been in early '81). I was 12. That was followed by an Atari 400, 410 Program Recorder, Atari BASIC and Atari LOGO carts in about '82. I got the 800 in '84, plus 1010 disk drive. In '86 I bought a 1040ST which held me until around '91 when I bought a 386DX/40 clone (AMD chip, which was why it was a 40 instead of a 33). I stuck with PCs (Win3.x, Win9x and XP) until '02 when I went Mac for my personal use. And as they say, once you go Mac, you never go back.  :lol: Still manage 3 PCs at home plus a dozen or so at work though.

Thanks to the beauty of ebay, however, I have a complete collection of all my 8-bits again, plus a bunch I never owned (most of the XL's for instance, plus a couple Commodores), and a bunch of peripherals, all in working order. Someday I'll have room to set them all up.


----------



## Doug Brott

:backtotop


----------



## houskamp

Here's food for thought: I find it interesting that the main board has a spot for 2 more tuners.. maybe a future version? If you never intended to offer something again why waste the space (and layout time)?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rahlquist said:


> As for their investigations, how about we suggest to them a flash based boot device and use the hard drive purely for storage of guides and data, and mount the HD in a carrier thats end user replaceable. Some more pipe dreams but you never know


Actually... this is pretty much how it is today.... 
It is just the live buffering that "throws" a wrench into it from the "caddy" point of view.


----------



## mtnsackett

thank you for continuing to give more and better info on future Equipment then D* engeneers. any info on the HR Pro rack mount?


----------



## bhelton71

This may be a dumb question. I noticed in the photos that BBC's were shipped with it - I am assuming the connection being used is swm. Seems like you could get further cost reduction by integrating the bbc functions into the tuner - I am sure its only a couple of dollars but that would add up on a big run - so I am curious why they didn't. Would it interfere with the swm function ?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mtnsackett said:


> thank you for continuing to give more and better info on future Equipment then D* engeneers. any info on the HR Pro rack mount?


Yes...

It isn't available yet... but is going to be a production item (unlike the HR20P)


----------



## houskamp

bhelton71 said:


> This may be a dumb question. I noticed in the photos that BBC's were shipped with it - I am assuming the connection being used is swm. Seems like you could get further cost reduction by integrating the bbc functions into the tuner - I am sure its only a couple of dollars but that would add up on a big run - so I am curious why they didn't. Would it interfere with the swm function ?


bbc's are not used in SWM applications.. so they need to be removable..


----------



## alwayscool

Quote:
Originally Posted by highheater 
5. Provide a compressed sat local channel that is inferior to the OTA signal.



gcisko said:


> What is the source of your facts of this statement? This has been discussed many times here. I have both OTA and HD via the SAT, you cannot see a difference.


I think you need glasses or perhaps a better tv. You have a DLP tv which is a joke for clarity of any kind. So I can see how you can't tell the difference. I had a 60" Sony DLP tv for a hot 15 minutes, because the picture was TERRIBLE. I took it back and spent the extra money for a plasma. Go to CC or BB and compare the picture quality of any DLP tv versus a plasma and tell me you can really comment on picture quality. I have 20/20 vision and I can see the difference between the OTA and HD locals on sat. Any signal that is compressed and uncompressed loses resolution, unless a lossless codec is used. I currently have 25 OTA local stations, and I'm willing to bet money that D* will NEVER have them all.

It's all about freedom of choice. When D* makes a receiver that doesn't have OTA tuners and doesn't carry all the FREE local channels I now receive, that is called censorship and /or restricting my choices, only to save money. I really feel sorry for all the people who can't receive OTA signals, because you don't know what you are missing. I have 5 PBS channels, and 20 other OTA channels here.


----------



## LameLefty

> You have a DLP tv which is a joke for clarity of any kind.


You just shot any type of credibility you may have had with that argument. You have obviously never seen a good, well-calibrated DLP display. But hey, thanks for playing our game.  We have some fabulous parting gifts for you.

In the meantime, enjoy your OTA - no one ever, anywhere, in any fashion whatsoever, said you couldn't.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

alwayscool said:


> It's all about freedom of choice. When D* makes a receiver that doesn't have OTA tuners and doesn't carry all the FREE local channels I now receive, that is called censorship and /or restricting my choices, only to save money. I really feel sorry for all the people who can't receive OTA signals, because you don't know what you are missing. I have 5 PBS channels, and 20 other OTA channels here.


Why is it "censorship"...
You are still well within your rights to obtain an ATSC tuner, and access them.

Just because DirecTV doesn't give you the ability on their technology (DVR) to record that OTA signal... they are doing nothing to "censor" you...

I will have to give you credit though... out of all the "theories" and reasons on why it is not good to have OTA... this censorship one... is the "top dog" (and not in a good way)


----------



## Doug Brott

alwayscool said:


> It's all about freedom of choice. When D* makes a receiver that doesn't have OTA tuners and doesn't carry all the FREE local channels I now receive, that is called censorship and /or restricting my choices, only to save money. I really feel sorry for all the people who can't receive OTA signals, because you don't know what you are missing. I have 5 PBS channels, and 20 other OTA channels here.


Uh .. you're kidding, right? Censorship? Last I checked, DIRECTV was still shipping out HR20s which have an OTA tuner. Secondly there are different services out there besides DIRECTV .. I don't see DIRECTV lobbying anyone to make it so you can't use those services .. Am I missing something? And last, but not least, connect the antenna to your TV directly .. use that ATSC tuner. It is true that you would have to be sitting there watching live TV, but I don't think DIRECTV is sitting in your house preventing you from watching the OTA channels.

Censorship .. uh No! try again.


----------



## Koz

alwayscool said:


> Go to CC or BB and compare the picture quality of any DLP tv versus a plasma and tell me you can really comment on picture quality.


BB and CC are horrible places to compare picture quality, IMO. Most are horribly calibrated, have the brightness turned up way too high, and may not even feature an HD feed (though this is improving).

And if your whole arguement is that you want and/or need OTA, then keep your HR20. It's not like the HR21 is an upgrade from it anyway. You still have the top of the line D* HD DVR. Other than the physical appearance of the box and lack of OTA, I can see no real difference between mine.


----------



## spartanstew

I don't get it.

It's a review of a new product. Why are people complaining about things it doesn't have (OTA)?

So what. If you need OTA, don't use it. Use the HR20.

When I read a review of a motorcycle, I don't write back complaining that it doesn't have enough rear leg room. That's ridiculous. If I need seating for 4, I get a car. I still appreciate the motorcycle review and what it offers to people who want it.

D* hasn't stated you can't get the HR20. If they ever do, I'm sure you'll have plenty of time to stock up on HR20's. Heck, with the number currently available and the number of people that have them and don't use OTA, I'm sure they'll be available long after D* stops providing them (assuming they ever do).

I prefer the black color, but I didn't start *****ing when I received my HR20 and it was silver. I knew it would be silver before I got it (from reading the review).

Lighten up people.



bertman64 said:


> When it is pouring down rain like here in Dallas area Sunday night all Satellite channels went out but all HD channels from antenna still came in fine so that is one of many reasons it should still have an OTA tuner!


I never lost signal on Sunday. Only lost signal once during the 60 day rain period earlier this summer and that was for less than 10 minutes.


----------



## alwayscool

LameLefty said:


> Just remember, every internet forum contains a disproportionate number of people who need to air complaints or grievances. I'm sure Directv understands this very well.
> 
> That said, my neighborhood (not the most exclusive in town by any means but definitely nicer than most) is filled with fairly nice homes ranging from 1,800 - 3,000 square feet, and good number of dishes - and not a single OTA antenna. Comcast understands this part too, as does Directv.


Why is it that the only people defending this "new enhanced" HR21 are the same ones that received a free one from D*? Isn't this a "conflict of interest"? Or biased opinions to say the least?:nono2:


----------



## Doug Brott

alwayscool said:


> Why is it that the only people defending this "new enhanced" HR21 are the same ones that received a free one from D*? Isn't this a "conflict of interest"? Or biased opinions to say the least?:nono2:


This is the HR21 first look thread .. what do you expect? What's wrong with the HR20 that you have? How is that different than the HR21 that you don't have yet are so vehemently opposed to?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

alwayscool said:


> Why is it that the only people defending this "new enhanced" HR21 are the same ones that received a free one from D*? Isn't this a "conflict of interest"? Or biased opinions to say the least?:nono2:


Lets see...

Maybe because we are the only one that hands on knowledge on how well it actually works?

And how "not" of a major deal, the lack of OTA is on it?
----

Still wouldn't matter on your completely off the wall "censorship" theory.
I would be against that theory, regardless if this was a DirecTV product, EchoStar, Cable-Co, FIOS, or what ever...


----------



## houskamp

alwayscool said:


> Why is it that the only people defending this "new enhanced" HR21 are the same ones that received a free one from D*? Isn't this a "conflict of interest"? Or biased opinions to say the least?:nono2:


Not defending it. just answering questions.. And yes I am an OTA supporter (no NBC,ABC or PBS via sat here).. but I can see where this would be a nice reciever for those locations where OTA isn't needed..


----------



## alwayscool

Knon2000 said:


> I personally would LOVE to have this as a second receiver on the main TV. There are many times that 2 tuners just don't cut it. For my purposes, I currently use OTA for all primetime recordings since I don't have HD LIL's as of yet. However, when I do get conflicts with 2 recordings, it is usually with Comedy Central, or SciFi. so in these cases, it would work perfectly. Count me in as a future purchaser, at least when it comes available for the mainstream user.


For what? To pay the same $299.00 for a receiver with less functionality?

Amazing......


----------



## LameLefty

alwayscool said:


> Why is it that the only people defending this "new enhanced" HR21 are the same ones that received a free one from D*? Isn't this a "conflict of interest"? Or biased opinions to say the least?:nono2:


Well, in my case maybe it's because I've actually used one. 

But let's set something straight, a very important point: I've had an HDTV since 2002. I've had DirecTV since 1997. I've NEVER ONCE had a Directv receiver that could do OTA until the HR20 almost exactly 1 year ago today. I have NEVER ONCE had an OTA antenna connected to it. I lived through the HR20's teething problems, even before OTA was active, and I never missed it. And despite the vocal protestations to the contrary here, I'm fairly sure I'm in the majority.


----------



## alwayscool

rahlquist said:


> I will give you an amen on that, the way it works now is beyond stupid. Sorry but thats my opinion.


+1


----------



## mtnsackett

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes...
> 
> It isn't available yet... but is going to be a production item (unlike the HR20P)


Actualy Earl no the bbc's will not be intagrated, the SWM has them built in and maybe Zinwell is working on a wideband Multiswitch with them incorparated but it looks like they are going to a swm that will run functions of both cables in one line and getting away from conventional multi-switches that was from corporate in a email sent out in Augest.


----------



## 66stang351

alwayscool said:


> Why is it that the only people defending this "new enhanced" HR21 are the same ones that received a free one from D*? Isn't this a "conflict of interest"? Or biased opinions to say the least?:nono2:


I don't see anyone defending a "new enhanced" receiver...I don't even see them defending a new receiver designed to serve the majority of DirecTV's customers. What I see is a few people trying to tear down a receiver because it doesn't appeal to them using completely unfounded and illogical reasoning. I don't have an HR-21 but if I need to add another receiver it would fill that need for me...for a few others it won't.

BTW nice job on the first look guys.


----------



## alwayscool

Earl Bonovich said:


> So.... should the eSATA support we have today... be shut off? and not available... until they resolve the "stupid" method that it is today... ?


What he and I said was that it is stupid and a waste to "replace" the internal drive, when it would be alot better to be able to add a drive and at the same time add drive space instead of replacing it. Why are you always so defensive Earl? Always defending anything D* related. I don't think I have ever read a post by you that says anything bad about D*.

If you really "think like an engineer" then you would realize that alot of the postings you reply to defending D*, are legitimate questions/concerns/complaints.


----------



## Jaysv

LameLefty said:


> But let's set something straight, a very important point: I've had an HDTV since 2002. I've had DirecTV since 1997. I've NEVER ONCE had a Directv receiver that could do OTA until the HR20 almost exactly 1 year ago today. I have NEVER ONCE had an OTA antenna connected to it. I lived through the HR20's teething problems, even before OTA was active, and I never missed it. And despite the vocal protestations to the contrary here, I'm fairly sure I'm in the majority.


So your argument is you don't want or need OTA, therefore it shouldn't be an issue for those of us who do?


----------



## spartanstew

alwayscool said:


> Why is it that the only people defending this "new enhanced" HR21 are the same ones that received a free one from D*? Isn't this a "conflict of interest"? Or biased opinions to say the least?:nono2:


I don't have an HR21. I guess I'm defending it, but I don't really see what there is to defend. From the review it seems like it does everything it was designed to do.



alwayscool said:


> For what? To pay the same $299.00 for a receiver with less functionality?
> 
> Amazing......


299? I've had 5 DVR's of one kind of another from D* over the last 7 years and the most I've ever paid for one was $50 (including the HR20 I received last month for free).

Did you really expect D* to keep manufacturing a unit with OTA capabilities (at a higher production cost), when the vast majority of users never use that feature?

Do yourself a favor, don't ever go into business for yourself. You're COS and Profit Margins will kill you.

What if they would have had the HR21 first? You would have *****ed for years about not having OTA capabilities. Then they would come out with the HR20 and you'd be jumping for joy. You'd love the fact that they had 2 versions.

What's the difference????? They still have 2 versions.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mtnsackett said:


> Actualy Earl no the bbc's will not be intagrated, the SWM has them built in and maybe Zinwell is working on a wideband Multiswitch with them incorparated but it looks like they are going to a swm that will run functions of both cables in one line and getting away from conventional multi-switches that was from corporate in a email sent out in Augest.


Umm.... huh? Where did I say anthing about the BBC's and the tuners?

I know all about the SWM and that the tuners in all the "next" DVR products will be SWM ready... but they will also work with traditional multiswitches (with the BBC's)


----------



## houskamp

alwayscool said:


> What he and I said was that it is stupid and a waste to "replace" the internal drive, when it would be alot better to be able to add a drive and at the same time add drive space instead of replacing it. Why are you always so defensive Earl? Always defending anything D* related. I don't think I have ever read a post by you that says anything bad about D*.


I think what he was saying is they don't have that part ready yet so at the current time it's all or nothing...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

alwayscool said:


> What he and I said was that it is stupid and a waste to "replace" the internal drive, when it would be alot better to be able to add a drive and at the same time add drive space instead of replacing it. Why are you always so defensive Earl? Always defending anything D* related. I don't think I have ever read a post by you that says anything bad about D*.


Well you need to look again... as there have been times I have disagreed with what they have done. But for the most part, I do agree with what they have done... and if explain why things are the way they are... is defensive... well.. then I guess I am going to be defensive for a long time...

----------------
If you understand the issues around the eSATA and using multiple drives in a system like that....

I guess they could have just turned of the eSATA until they were ready to implement it without having to "disable" the internal drive.

But then again... gosh forbid they turn that on, and that is the way it is..

But hey... I guess that would be defensive, explaining how it works... and why they are doing what they are doing today...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

houskamp said:


> I think what he was saying is they don't have that part ready yet so at the current time it's all or nothing...


Close... but...

It is just that using both drives at the same is not as easy or straightforward as it may seem on the surface... and we have had that debate many times before.... It is not really a "part"... but more of how are they going to implement it, and what is end-game usage going to be like.

But I guess it doesn't really matter what the reasons are... if people don't like the way something is, regardless of the reason... they are still going to complain about it.


----------



## spartanstew

Earl,

People will also complain even if they like what they have. Especially if a company provides a product they don't need. How selfish of D* to produce a product that some individuals don't have a need for (regardless of the fact that there's other products that do meet their needs).


----------



## RobertE

Jaysv said:


> So your argument is you don't want or need OTA, therefore it shouldn't be an issue for those of us who do?


Correct because its a *NON-ISSUE*.

If you want or need OTA then the H/HR20 line is for you. If not, then the H/HR21 line is for you.

Why is it so hard for people to come to grips with the fact that both lines will be around at the same time. 

Has anyone seen my horse???

Oh here he is. :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## LameLefty

Jaysv said:


> So your argument is you don't want or need OTA, therefore it shouldn't be an issue for those of us who do?


Sorry, but that's not correct. See, this is what's called a "strawman argument." You've taken what I wrote, misconstrued it (intentionally or by accident) and presented what you THINK or want others to think I actually wrote.

I was being criticized for being positive about the HR21, the accusation being that since I got it free (now who told anyone what I pay for any of my equipment?), I must be biased. I responded that I am positive because unlike most, I've actually used this device and I have never used OTA antennas for digital TV and so I don't miss that feature.

_Nowhere in any of my posts have I indicated that OTA isn't important or shouldn't be important to anyone else. _

Clear enough for you now?


----------



## say-what

alwayscool said:


> Why is it that the only people defending this "new enhanced" HR21 are the same ones that received a free one from D*? Isn't this a "conflict of interest"? Or biased opinions to say the least?:nono2:


Believe me, I was skeptical of the lack of OTA when I started testing the HR21. So much so that I paired it with my H20 so that I would have OTA in the room. But it wasn't long before I realized that I didn't really use OTA that much in the room where it was setup and I deactivated and returned the H20.

Realistically, there are many subscribers who don't need or want OTA and many uses that don't require OTA. My parents live in an area where it's useless to even try an outdoor antenna and even if they could, they don't want an OTA antenna. Also, for many people needing a secondary unit, the lack of OTA will not be an issue.

I have nothing to gain in defending the lack of OTA and nothing to lose by criticising the lack of OTA - I was asked to participate in a field test for a new piece of equipment that happened to lack OTA and provide feedback and that's what I did. My thoughts on the lack of OTA have everything to do with my actual usage and understanding of other situations where OTA is not a requirement for a DirecTV receiver and constitute my honest opinion. Feel free to have a different opinion, but don't ever dare accuse me of not being honest in expressing my opinion.

You need to keep an open mind with regard to these things. The HR21 is what it is and if you absolutely require OTA in your DirecTV receivers, then by all means stick with the HR20 and H20 as the 21 series is not for you.


----------



## LameLefty

say-what said:


> I have nothing to gain in defending the lack of OTA and nothing to lose by criticising the lack of OTA - I was asked to participate in a field test for a new piece of equipment that happened to lack OTA and provide feedback and that's what I did. My thoughts on the lack of OTA have everything to do with my actual usage and understanding of other situations where OTA is not a requirement for a DirecTV receiver and constitute my honest opinion. Feel free to have a different opinion, but don't ever dare accuse me of not being honest in expressing my opinion.


+1 :up:


----------



## Ryan

Won't many areas be getting 'improved' OTA reception when the stations turn off analog, and can move their digital broadcast to better frequencies?

I wouldn't give up the OTA option, so as long as the HR20 is available I guess that's fine.

Can someone point me to a breakdown in the differences between the 20-100 & 20-700 units? Thanks...


----------



## Jaysv

LameLefty said:


> Sorry, but that's not correct. See, this is what's called a "strawman argument." You've taken what I wrote, misconstrued it (intentionally or by accident) and presented what you THINK or want others to think I actually wrote.
> 
> I was being criticized for being positive about the HR21, the accusation being that since I got it free (now who told anyone what I pay for any of my equipment?), I must be biased. I responded that I am positive because unlike most, I've actually used this device and I have never used OTA antennas for digital TV and so I don't miss that feature.
> 
> _Nowhere in any of my posts have I indicated that OTA isn't important or shouldn't be important to anyone else. _
> 
> Clear enough for you now?


Yes, thank you.


----------



## P Smith

Well you posting your question totally offtopic .



Ryan said:


> <...>
> Can someone point me to a breakdown in the differences between the 20-100 & 20-700 units? Thanks...


----------



## mtnsackett

Earl Bonovich said:


> Umm.... huh? Where did I say anthing about the BBC's and the tuners?
> 
> I know all about the SWM and that the tuners in all the "next" DVR products will be SWM ready... but they will also work with traditional multiswitches (with the BBC's)


Sorry Earl I went back and read your post again ,yes you are correct I read the post and thought you were saying that all next gen IRDS would have the BBC built in, when I am wrong I will admit it. I don't know where you get all your info but I have found more here in the last year then D* realeses to their tech agents. almost seams like they think they would be dangerous with that info


----------



## Jaysv

RobertE said:


> Correct because its a *NON-ISSUE*.
> 
> If you want or need OTA then the H/HR20 line is for you. If not, then the H/HR21 line is for you.
> 
> Why is it so hard for people to come to grips with the fact that both lines will be around at the same time.


Today that does seem to be the case, let's hope it stays that way for the foreseeable future.


----------



## alwayscool

say-what said:


> Believe me, I was skeptical of the lack of OTA when I started testing the HR21. So much so that I paired it with my H20 so that I would have OTA in the room. But it wasn't long before I realized that I didn't really use OTA that much in the room where it was setup and I deactivated and returned the H20.
> 
> Realistically, there are many subscribers who don't need or want OTA and many uses that don't require OTA. My parents live in an area where it's useless to even try an outdoor antenna and even if they could, they don't want an OTA antenna. Also, for many people needing a secondary unit, the lack of OTA will not be an issue.
> 
> I have nothing to gain in defending the lack of OTA and nothing to lose by criticising the lack of OTA - I was asked to participate in a field test for a new piece of equipment that happened to lack OTA and provide feedback and that's what I did. My thoughts on the lack of OTA have everything to do with my actual usage and understanding of other situations where OTA is not a requirement for a DirecTV receiver and constitute my honest opinion. Feel free to have a different opinion, but don't ever dare accuse me of not being honest in expressing my opinion.
> 
> You need to keep an open mind with regard to these things. The HR21 is what it is and if you absolutely require OTA in your DirecTV receivers, then by all means stick with the HR20 and H20 as the 21 series is not for you.


If all you guys would just read my first post in this thread, all I said was that its was a WASTE OF MONEY for D* to develop this stripped down version of the HR20, instead of spending the money to make the HR20 function reliabily 100%. It still cannot record reliably 100% of the time, which is the MAIN FUNCTION of a dvr.

Or am I wrong?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So those of us who don't want OTA can use the faster, better MPEG4 encoding HR21 while those of us who want OTA have to rely on the slower, sometimes unreliable HR20? 

An upgrade should include everything the old model had plus new things. And how are you saving costs if they're both $299? 

It interesting though, because I read somewhere online (here?) that the cable companys were coming out with a box with built in OTA tuners because some of them were being charged too much by local channels to carry their HD channels, or couldn't get access to them at all. 

So what happens when D* isn't able to get contracts to carry all of the OTA channels? Some will have to rely on OTA.


----------



## say-what

alwayscool said:


> If all you guys would just read my first post in this thread, all I said was that its was a WASTE OF MONEY for D* to develop this stripped down version of the HR20, instead of spending the money to make the HR20 function reliabily 100%. It still cannot record reliably 100% of the time, which is the MAIN FUNCTION of a dvr.
> 
> Or am I wrong?


Well, debating HR20 problems is way off topic for a HR21 First Look Thread. Anyway, to answer your question, not sure what problems you might be having, but between my 2 HR20's, they've missed one recording and that was way back in January - I think I'd classify mine as reliable. Now back to the topic at hand.


----------



## spartanstew

alwayscool said:


> If all you guys would just read my first post in this thread, all I said was that its was a WASTE OF MONEY for D* to develop this stripped down version of the HR20, instead of spending the money to make the HR20 function reliabily 100%. It still cannot record reliably 100% of the time, which is the MAIN FUNCTION of a dvr.
> 
> Or am I wrong?


Yes, you're wrong.

How is the fact that they developed a piece of equipment that the MAJORITY of customers will use AND that costs less to manufacture a waste of money?

From a purely business perspective, why would they want to spend money to make the HR20 better* when it has a feature (OTA) that 1.) most people don't even use and 2.) costs more to include?

That's about as far from a waste of money as you can get.

I'll reiterate. Don't go into business.

*However, I'm glad they're still working on the HR20 as well and continue to improve it.


----------



## spartanstew

theratpatrol said:


> An upgrade should include everything the old model had plus new things.


They didn't upgrade anything. They created a new box for people with needs other than yours.

An upgrade would be if this box had 1 TB of storage, a DVD burner inside, etc. It doesn't. It's functionally the same. It's not an upgrade.

Would it have made you happy if they would have made this unit but used a louder fan then the HR20? Or a slower processor? Would that have pleased you?


----------



## Koz

theratpatrol said:


> So those of us who don't want OTA can use the faster, better MPEG4 encoding HR21 while those of us who want OTA have to rely on the slower, sometimes unreliable HR20?


FWIW, the "faster" processor in the HR21 has not made a noticeable improvement (or change in any way, for that matter) in the performance of the box versus my HR20. Again, the HR21 is not an upgrade of the HR20. It's basically the HR20 without OTA.

True, some of the components are newer. I suspect that's because they were able to integrate some of the chips to reduce the cost of both the materials (less parts) and assembly (again, less parts). But it hasn't changed performance.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

spartanstew said:


> They didn't upgrade anything. They created a new box for people with needs other than yours.
> 
> An upgrade would be if this box had 1 TB of storage, a DVD burner inside, etc. It doesn't. It's functionally the same. It's not an upgrade.
> 
> Would it have made you happy if they would have made this unit but used a louder fan then the HR20? Or a slower processor? Would that have pleased you?


How is it not an upgrade? Does it not have a faster processor, new MPEG4 encoders, new quieter fan which runs cooler? That to me is an upgrade. If its not, please correct if I'm wrong. 

I'm not trying to knock anything. I really like the HR20. I've only had it for 2 months and mine has been working flawless. I really like the ability of being able to integrate and record both OTA and satellite into one box. I do record and watch things from PBS, CW, and My Network. As of now, I can't do that with D* locals.

Until D* gets all the locals up and running on the sats, OTA integration is a must.

Again, no offense, I'm just trying to figure it all out.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Koz said:


> FWIW, the "faster" processor in the HR21 has not made a noticeable improvement (or change in any way, for that matter) in the performance of the box versus my HR20. Again, the HR21 is not an upgrade of the HR20. It's basically the HR20 without OTA.
> 
> True, some of the components are newer. I suspect that's because they were able to integrate some of the chips to reduce the cost of both the materials (less parts) and assembly (again, less parts). But it hasn't changed performance.


Ok that answers my question then. And as long as they continue to make the HR20, I'll be happy. I want to get another one, but not until next year. 

Thank you


----------



## say-what

theratpatrol said:


> How is it not an upgrade? Does it not have a faster processor, new MPEG4 encoders, new quieter fan which runs cooler? That to me is an upgrade. If its not, please correct if I'm wrong.
> 
> I'm not trying to knock anything. I really like the HR20. I've only had it for 2 months and mine has been working flawless. I really like the ability of being able to integrate and record both OTA and satellite into one box. I do record and watch things from PBS, CW, and My Network. As of now, I can't do that with D* locals.
> 
> Until D* gets all the locals up and running on the sats, OTA integration is a must.
> 
> Again, no offense, I'm just trying to figure it all out.


It's a newer model with a slightly different design that is functionally equivalent to the HR20 less the OTA. If that makes it an upgrade, then it's an upgrade, but the boxes work the same.


----------



## azarby

say-what said:


> Well, debating HR20 problems is way off topic for a HR21 First Look Thread. Anyway, to answer your question, not sure what problems you might be having, but between my 2 HR20's, they've missed one recording and that was way back in January - I think I'd classify mine as reliable. Now back to the topic at hand.


I agree with you on the HR20s abilities. We have two HR20s along with the HR21 and the HR20s have only missed 1 recording in about 8 months and that may have been a user error. These units are way better than the previous generation TIVO tha now sits unused in a guest room.

Bob


----------



## bsnelson

I know I'm continuing the off-topic-ness, but... am I the only one that thinks the way the eSATA functionality works is exactly RIGHT from a usability standpoint? One could build a library of eSATA drives with specific programming on them and attach them at will to watch that programming. Expensive, yes, but imagine having a drive with full seasons of your favorite shows that you could playback with full DVR functionality by just plugging it in. 

On topic: Thanks for the review, guys. I won't be getting one of these units due to a key difference between it and the HR20 (hint: it's spelled Oh-Tee-Ay  ), but it looks like a good box for those that can use it. 

Brad


----------



## Doug Brott

theratpatrol said:


> . . . new MPEG4 encoders . . .


Neither the HR20 nor the HR21 have MPEG4 encoders, but I'm sure you already knew that. I'm just clarifying. What the HR20/HR21 does do is decode the MPEG4 stream, so it has MPEG4 decoders.


----------



## carl6

I started to write a really long posting that basically didn't say anything that hasn't already been said. So I erased it all and am only going to say that I think the HR21 is a good business move by DirecTV, and for those who have OTA requirements, the HR20 remains the right answer.

I am not one of those who has received an HR21-700.

Carl


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just because DirecTV doesn't give you the ability on their technology (DVR) to record that OTA signal... they are doing nothing to "censor" you...


But you do have the ability to record OTA...


----------



## gcisko

highheater said:


> Nice taunt ... but if you'd spend some time over in the AVS Forum you'd see all the complaints about poor HD from Direct TV. Especially in comparison to FIOS. Poor sourcing is the number one excuse offered for poor picture perfromance on even the most expensive HDTVs. If you think Direct TV HD is the Holy Grail of HD then you really don't know what you are talking about..


Holy grail??? I never said that did I? But I did point out you were 
being hypocritical.



highheater said:


> Wasn't it bad enough that Direct TV got sued over whether their compressed HD was really HD? Or was that just someone's imagination?


Correct someones imagination. Awesome that you are keeping track 
of this stuff. Please make a full review of Time Warner history.



highheater said:


> I have numerous friends that have HD with Direct TV and I've been very unimpressed. I'm hoping the new sats will help the situation. Perhaps things will be better. But I'm not encouraged if they continue to compress their signals to allow the broadcasting of 1000+ locals in the future.


Frankly that sounds like a personal problem 



highheater said:


> As far as getting competitive with cable when they decided to offer 'locals'. Instead I'd think they would have left cable in the dust if they offered all these HD stations two years ahead of cable with that extra bandwidth.
> 
> Have a nice day.


Hey you too. Any time...


----------



## Jeremy W

bsnelson said:


> imagine having a drive with full seasons of your favorite shows that you could playback with full DVR functionality by just plugging it in.


The thing is, it doesn't work quite like that. You can't "just plug it in," you have to plug it in and reboot the receiver. You also have to keep in mind that all of your Series Links travel with the drive, so building a library like that would involve a tremendous amount of juggling. It's really not viable.


----------



## gcisko

alwayscool said:


> It still cannot record reliably 100% of the time, which is the MAIN FUNCTION of a dvr.
> 
> Or am I wrong?


OK I am going to screw myself. Because I have no idea why you would think the HR20 cannot record 100% reliability. I have not had a problem in many many months. So what are you referring to?


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> So.... should the eSATA support we have today... be shut off? and not available... until they resolve the "stupid" method that it is today... ?


Nope not at all. It is what it is. And even if some people think it is stupid. I am glad for it's simplicity. Just get an eSTAT drive and plug it in??? How simple can you get? Is it ideal? Perhaps not. But far better than no other option and just living with the 300GB drive. Sometimes I wonder if people really thing about this stuff. Perhaps they simply do not understand.


----------



## Halo

Koz said:


> FWIW, the "faster" processor in the HR21 has not made a noticeable improvement (or change in any way, for that matter) in the performance of the box versus my HR20.


Not surprising. Had they used the 7400 cpu instead the speed increase (more than double) would have been noticeable. The 7400 would also allow dual stream mpeg4 decoding which would make PIP possible (if enabled in software). Maybe we'll see the 7400 in the HR20P if it ever comes out.
The 7401 is probably a little faster than the 7038/7411 combo (used in the HR20) but the main reason it was chosen is cost. Integrating the 7411 into the main cpu saves a little board size and complexity and probably saves a couple watts as well.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Koz said:


> FWIW, the "faster" processor in the HR21 has not made a noticeable improvement (or change in any way, for that matter) in the performance of the box versus my HR20. Again, the HR21 is not an upgrade of the HR20. It's basically the HR20 without OTA.


Of course the maturity of the firmware is still very new, and has not yet advanced to the point of taking advantage of the full potential power of the better CPU and other chipset elements yet. In some cases they have, such as improved MPEG4 handling. The same thing happened with earlier HR20 firmware, which improved over time in many ways as far as performance/speed.

How the GUI and firmware uses the CPU's capabilities are controlled within the firmware - kinda like how a racecar can drive fast is based on the driver, not just the engine.


----------



## Popcorn

What ever happened to the Media Center that would have allowed High Def streaming to other TV's in the house?


----------



## dodge boy

awww man i want one, I want to pull the guts out and put the inerds from my R15 into that case! (I had to paint my R15 black to match my stereo and TV)


----------



## ajayrav

dodge boy said:


> awww man i want one, I want to pull the guts out and put the inerds from my R15 into that case! (I had to paint my R15 black to match my stereo and TV)


I'm assuming that is an 'owned' R15 and not one that is leased. My HR20-700 is a leased receiver and I'm itching to paint it black, but think they may charge me if I ever decide to quit or upgrade later.


----------



## Jeremy W

dodge boy said:


> I want to pull the guts out and put the inerds from my R15 into that case!


Why in the world would you do that? The HR21 is a better DVR than the R15 in every way possible.


----------



## dodge boy

Jeremy W said:


> Why in the world would you do that? The HR21 is a better DVR than the R15 in every way possible.


No RF remote and no "RF" coax out, i use it to feed my TV in the kitchen and Bathroom in the basement, so on game day i don't miss a thing!!!!!!!


----------



## Jeremy W

dodge boy said:


> No RF remote and no "RF" coax out, i use it to feed my TV in the kitchen and Bathroom in the basement, so on game day i don't miss a thing!!!!!!!


The HR21 (as well as both HR20s) *does* have an RF remote, and you can pick up a cheap RF modulator at Radio Shack to get a coax output.


----------



## dodge boy

Jeremy W said:


> The HR21 (as well as both HR20s) *does* have an RF remote, and you can pick up a cheap RF modulator at Radio Shack to get a coax output.


I missed that the RF antenna was internal..... 
Bring on The HD... Whay can't I "test" one of these new things???? But all my local HDs are OTA so gimme an HR20 in this case....

And to ajayrav yeah I own mine I thought D used to make a black one..... search ebay


----------



## john13154

waynenm said:


> I cannot believe there's no OTA. Just plain wrong.


+1. For those of us that need OTA for some of the major networks we don't have as LIL it's a no brainer.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

john13154 said:


> +1. For those of us that need OTA for some of the major networks we don't have as LIL it's a no brainer.


...and for the 2,227th time...let us say that the HR20 is for you... 

For the rest of the majority of HD viewers, the HR21 is right for them.

Both are no brainers.


----------



## jheda

Great job with the document guys. Very professional look. Glad i played a small role, and honored to have been part of it.......


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and for the 2,227th time...let us say that the HR20 is for you...
> 
> For the rest of the majority of HD viewers, the HR21 is right for them.
> 
> Both are no brainers.


+1 .. now for the 2,228th time  Yeah, the matrix is pretty simple these days:

OTA -> HR20
Don't care -> HR20 or HR21

It's not Rocket Science.


----------



## freshone

When are they available and how do I get one! Since I lease my current one, do I just tell them to ship me an HR21? (For a nominal fee, of course.)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

freshone said:


> When are they available and how do I get one! Since I lease my current one, do I just tell them to ship me an HR21? (For a nominal fee, of course.)


They should be available in the next few weeks...

And that "nominal fee" will probably be $199 - $299


----------



## Splendor

lol...no OTA? That's just stupid.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Splendor said:


> lol...no OTA? That's just stupid.


And what is your theory on why it is stupid...

Since this OTA things to be the only thing important about the HR21


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and for the 2,227th time...let us say that the HR20 is for you...
> 
> For the rest of the majority of HD viewers, the HR21 is right for them.
> 
> Both are no brainers.


+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, ad infinitum!

Sheez guys!

It is an easy decision, Need OTA, get an HR20, don't need OTA (or care), get an HR21...seem fitting to me.


----------



## smiddy

Splendor said:


> lol...no OTA? That's just stupid.


No it isn't!


----------



## Splendor

Earl Bonovich said:


> And what is your theory on why it is stupid...
> 
> Since this OTA things to be the only thing important about the HR21


Because, with the addition of a simple OTA connection the HR21 becomes obviously superior. Without it, it's simply another option. I'm no ad wizard, but it seems to me that when introducing a new product you should try to make it better than the old one. Especially when the majority of the customers ordering this product from D* won't even have the option to specify whether they want the HR20 or HR21.


----------



## Splendor

smiddy said:


> No it isn't!


Why is introducing a new product in the line up that is missing a key feature not stupid?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Splendor said:


> Why is introducing a new product in the line up that is missing a key feature not stupid?


Because it is not a "key feature" to the majority of D*TV HD customers.

That is why they still have the HR20 version, for those who need to satisfy their OTA lust.

Not having both...now that... you could make a case for being stupid.

And now that this has been explained a Million times, I propose that any more posts with references or questions on OTA be deleted going forward.


----------



## Splendor

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Because it is not a "key feature" to the majority of D*TV HD customers.
> 
> That is why they still have the HR20 version, for those who need to satisfy their OTA lust.
> 
> Not having both...now that... you could make a case for being stupid.
> 
> And now that this has been explained a Million times, I propose that any more posts with references or questions on OTA be deleted going forward.


Yeah, that would be silly if D* had a way to see how many people wish the HR21 had an OTA connection. We'd better delete all of the posts. :lol:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Splendor said:


> Especially when the majority of the customers ordering this product from D* won't even have the option to specify whether they want the HR20 or HR21.


And you know this... how?

Have you called and tried to order a new receiver, after the HR21 has been added to the system for order?

How do you know the CSRs may not ask the very simple question, and can accurately mark the order form?

And to the first point... who said the HR21 was an "upgrade" to the HR20..

As noted several times over: HR21 = HR20 - ATSC

The HR21 was not intended to be "superior" it an additonal product to the same series of units.

And IMHO... what is stupid is to continue to add COST to a box, for a feature that will not be used an extremely large percentage of their consumer base.

I know it is hard to believe for some people... but ATSC is not the end-all be-all to people... and "average joe" simply doesn't want to deal with the antenna again.... regardless of the reasons..

Almost 30 years people have gone with out an OTA antenna's... and you think that is going to change over night, because of the possibility of getting a few extra sub-channels that are not good enough to be their own channels?


----------



## glenj68

Are any of these products ever going to have dual tuner output so that we can use the pip features that most TV's have?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

glenj68 said:


> Are any of these products ever going to have dual tuner output so that we can use the pip features that most TV's have?


No... highly doubtfull.

If you need to use the PiP features of your TV... 2nd recevier is necessary, and will probably be that way for a whiles to come.


----------



## say-what

Splendor said:


> Because, with the addition of a simple OTA connection the HR21 becomes obviously superior. Without it, it's simply another option. I'm no ad wizard, but it seems to me that when introducing a new product you should try to make it better than the old one. Especially when the majority of the customers ordering this product from D* won't even have the option to specify whether they want the HR20 or HR21.


Actually, given the opportunity, I would gladly trade the HR20 in my bedroom for a 2nd HR21. The lack of OTA is not a problem for me, or many other DirecTV subscribers.

For you, the HR21 is obviously not an option, but that doesn't make it a useless or stupid product.


----------



## Splendor

Earl Bonovich said:


> And you know this... how?
> 
> Have you called and tried to order a new receiver, after the HR21 has been added to the system for order?
> 
> How do you know the CSRs may not ask the very simple question, and can accurately mark the order form?
> 
> And to the first point... who said the HR21 was an "upgrade" to the HR20..
> 
> As noted several times over: HR21 = HR20 - ATSC
> 
> The HR21 was not intended to be "superior" it an additonal product to the same series of units.
> 
> And IMHO... what is stupid is to continue to add COST to a box, for a feature that will not be used an extremely large percentage of their consumer base.
> 
> I know it is hard to believe for some people... but ATSC is not the end-all be-all to people... and "average joe" simply doesn't want to deal with the antenna again.... regardless of the reasons..
> 
> Almost 30 years people have gone with out an OTA antenna's... and you think that is going to change over night, because of the possibility of getting a few extra sub-channels that are not good enough to be their own channels?


So the goal of the HR21 is to save the $5 manufacturing cost of adding in an OTA connection with no additional benefit? I guess I was wrong. That's brilliant!


----------



## LameLefty

Splendor said:


> So the goal of the HR21 is to save the $5 manufacturing cost of adding in an OTA connection with no additional benefit? I guess I was wrong. That's brilliant!


$5 times potentially millions of receivers - yeah, really brilliant. Glad you finally see the light. 

I'm ordering another one just as soon as they are available. :up:


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Splendor said:


> Yeah, that would be silly if D* had a way to see how many people wish the HR21 had an OTA connection. We'd better delete all of the posts. :lol:


Start a new thread w/ a poll on the lack of OTA topic.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Doug Brott said:


> Neither the HR20 nor the HR21 have MPEG4 encoders, but I'm sure you already knew that. I'm just clarifying. What the HR20/HR21 does do is decode the MPEG4 stream, so it has MPEG4 decoders.


Encoders, decoders, I can't keep track all of these technical terms. 



glenj68 said:


> Are any of these products ever going to have dual tuner output so that we can use the pip features that most TV's have?


Some TV's can't do HD PIP for both sides of the screen, at least mine can't.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

I think more of the issue is, both "pictures"/tuners can't be HDMI. At least it is for mine.

Anyway....Back to Topic......sorry


----------



## scottchered

the reason they took the ota tuners out of the h21 and the hr21 is because the frequency of the new channels is the same as the ota which causes you to not receive some of the new channels***that my understanding anyway***


----------



## gcisko

Splendor said:


> So the goal of the HR21 is to save the $5 manufacturing cost of adding in an OTA connection with no additional benefit? I guess I was wrong. That's brilliant!


It is brilliant if they sell 100,000 units. They just made $500,000 more prophit. If the number of people really needing OTA really is that low, then I cannot blame them. I am an OTA person, but realize that money is the over-riding factor with any bussiness.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

scottchered said:


> the reason they took the ota tuners out of the h21 and the hr21 is because the frequency of the new channels is the same as the ota which causes you to not receive some of the new channels***that my understanding anyway***


You got the part right about the new HD channels and OTA channels are on the same frequencies and that is why you can not diplexe a OTA into the SAT line anymore. But that is not why there is no OTA.

If you run a separate OTA line to a HR20 and H20 you will still receive all the new HD channels.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Splendor said:


> So the goal of the HR21 is to save the $5 manufacturing cost of adding in an OTA connection with no additional benefit? I guess I was wrong. That's brilliant!


And if you think it was just $5.... please post your source for that calculation... as I can tell you it is definently more then $5

But then again... you are just throwing "stuff" at the wall to see what sticks... aren't you?


----------



## smiddy

Splendor said:


> Why is introducing a new product in the line up that is missing a key feature not stupid?


OTA isn't a key feature. Therefore it is not stupid.


----------



## freshone

Whoa!! That's not nominal at all!!


----------



## Splendor

Earl Bonovich said:


> And if you think it was just $5.... please post your source for that calculation... as I can tell you it is definently more then $5
> 
> But then again... you are just throwing "stuff" at the wall to see what sticks... aren't you?


Yep...I made up the $5 figure. But it's good to know that nobody here has any defense for how great this new IRD is. Everyone seems to agree that it's just D* trying to save some $$$ and apparently that's enough to get everyone here all excited.

:shrug:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

scottchered said:


> the reason they took the ota tuners out of the h21 and the hr21 is because the frequency of the new channels is the same as the ota which causes you to not receive some of the new channels***that my understanding anyway***


Ah.........no.

The reason (as stated many times before before) is to have versions with and without OTA supported.

By the way, my 2 HR20-700's with OTA also get all the new channels just fine - my HR21-700 without OTA does as well.

:beatdeadhorse: :backtotop

Here's a new approach to make things *simple*.

For those who actually *read* the First Look document completely, it would become very *obvious* that this new unit would either be ideal for you or it would not - it includes a clear comparison of the differences between the HR21-700 and the HR20 series. For those who like the new color, the faster new chipset, the new Ethernet connectivity, etc......then the HR21 is right for you.

For those who do not see the value in those things and/or are in life-threatening need of OTA broadcast reception, then the HR20 series is perfect for you.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Splendor said:


> Yep...I made up the $5 figure. But it's good to know that nobody here has any defense for how great this new IRD is. Everyone seems to agree that it's just D* trying to save some $$$ and apparently that's enough to get everyone here all excited.
> 
> :shrug:


What "defense" is necessary?

Is another box in the HR20 series... and it is just as good as the HR20-700 and the HR20-100..

No major "leaps" here... the software is the same... the core "pieces" are all the same... the connections... are all the same...

Sorry that somewhere in your head that you had this HR21 on some pedestial as it was going to be some monster technological leap here.

As it was never built, designed, or planned to be that.

And it is not a "shock" that DirecTV is trying to reduce the financial loss they take on each HR20/HR21 they make.

Anyone that thinks DirecTV is not a buisness and tries to maximize their bottom line... is just fooling themselves..


----------



## Splendor

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sorry that somewhere in your head that you had this HR21 on some pedestial as it was going to be some monster technological leap here.


No worries...I learned long ago not to expect any forward direction from D*. It seems every time I 'upgrade', I have to part with a feature that I consider paramount (ie. having to lose dual tuners on my D*TiVo to get an HD DVR that supports all of the new HD channels). I appreciate the responses and the work you do on this forum.

:hi:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Splendor said:


> It seems every time I 'upgrade', I have to part with a feature that I consider paramount (ie. having to lose dual tuners on my D*TiVo to get an HD DVR that supports all of the new HD channels).


Uh....that is wrong information as well...

The HR20 series have 4 tuners in them - 2 Sat tuners *and *2 OTA tuners

The HR21 has 2 Sat tuners

Looks like you "upgraded" and didn't know it.


----------



## jtn

I was under the impression that the HR20 and HR21 are exactly the same, maybe different colors black or silver. Same motherboard etc. If this is not true what is the difference? 

I am able to record 3 shows at one time with my HR20! 1 OTA and 2 HD or SD programs. I thought some had disputed this ability. I have 2 units (HR20) and they both can do this.


----------



## Koz

jtn said:


> I was under the impression that the HR20 and HR21 are exactly the same, maybe different colors black or silver. Same motherboard etc. If this is not true what is the difference?
> 
> I am able to record 3 shows at one time with my HR20! 1 OTA and 2 HD or SD programs. I thought some had disputed this ability. I have 2 units (HR20) and they both can do this.


 Different motherboards with some different internal components, but essentially the same functionality, minus the OTA on the HR21.

If you've gotten 3 things to record at once (not counting VOD) that would be a first. Would you kindly take a photo of your "My Playlist" screen showing 3 things recording on 3 different channels? There are many here that would like to see that.


----------



## Splendor

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Uh....that is wrong information as well...
> 
> The HR20 series have 4 tuners in them - 2 Sat tuners *and *2 OTA tuners
> 
> The HR21 has 2 Sat tuners
> 
> Looks like you "upgraded" and didn't know it.


Sorry...I was referring to the dual live buffers. :sure:


----------



## jtn

Koz said:


> Different motherboards with some different internal components, but essentially the same functionality, minus the OTA on the HR21.
> 
> If you've gotten 3 things to record at once (not counting VOD) that would be a first. Would you kindly take a photo of your "My Playlist" screen showing 3 things recording on 3 different channels? There are many here that would like to see that.


I don't have a digital camera, but I will be buying one soon. In all honesty I am able to record 1 OTA program and 2 Satellite programs at the same time with both my HR20's.

Thank you for the feedback on the differences on the HR20 versus the HR21 Koz, I appreciate the quick response.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Splendor said:


> Sorry...I was referring to the dual live buffers. :sure:


DLB (dual live buffers) can be supported in any of the HR20 or HR21 series DVR's when D*TV determines to add that capability to the firmware for all of those units - it is not hardware dependent. So far, they have chosen not to do it, but it certainly may happen in the future.


----------



## LameLefty

Splendor said:


> No worries...I learned long ago not to expect any forward direction from D*. It seems every time I 'upgrade', I have to part with a feature that I consider paramount (ie. having to lose dual tuners on my D*TiVo to get an HD DVR that supports all of the new HD channels).


It's been clear since your first post on this thread that you're just trolling for arguments' sake. You seem incapable of rational discussion about the merits of the box (especially with those who've actually been able to use and test them), nor consider the fact that OTA recording through a satellite receiver is not core functionality for a good number of Directv subscribers. Ergo, further discussion with you is a waste of time.

As for me, I want another one bad enough that I am going to wait until they are available and order one as soon as possible thereafter.


----------



## jmschnur

1. OTA is important if DTV does not provide all stations in an area. This has been the case so far. If DTV can provide all locals for all areas then it will not be an issue.

2. Are the HR21s specs for resolution and signal sensitvity the same as the HR20-700s? It seems that the HR20-100 is more sensitive than the HR20-700 for off the air and perhaps sat. 1080p upconversion would be nice if the HR21 can do that.


----------



## Ken_F

I could have sworn I posted this information more than a month ago.


----------



## Doug Brott

jtn said:


> I don't have a digital camera, but I will be buying one soon. In all honesty I am able to record 1 OTA program and 2 Satellite programs at the same time with both my HR20's.
> 
> Thank you for the feedback on the differences on the HR20 versus the HR21 Koz, I appreciate the quick response.


It's been proven (by Tom Robertson) that you can actually record numerous things at the same time. I believe he was up to 7 simultaneous records at one point.

The kicker is that two of those recordings had to (1) be on the same channel and (2) overlap. Then the HR20 was smart enough to use a single tuner to grab the recording. That left the second tuner free to record any other channel.

You may think that you are recording 3 things at one time, but there is no way that you are doing it on a single HR20. Sorry.


----------



## Doug Brott

Ken_F said:


> I could have sworn I posted this information more than a month ago.


You did, but the picture is still of an H21 .. that picture is NOT an HR21 now any more than it was then. Nice work on the chip choices, though.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> It's been proven (by Tom Robertson) that you can actually record numerous things at the same time. I believe he was up to 7 simultaneous records at one point.
> 
> You may think that you are recording 3 things at one time, but there is no way that you are doing it on a single HR20. Sorry.


Yes...several of us have played "tuner ping-pong" using the 2 sat tuners in the HR21 - and you can schedule a mittful of things.

But it's designed (like its cousin the HR20 series) to record 2 programs at the same time on different channels, if needed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I vote that every reference in this thread from this point forward to OTA requires a fine to be paid by the poster to the favorite charity here - the DBSTalk fund.


----------



## ShiningBengal

jmschnur said:


> 1. OTA is important if DTV does not provide all stations in an area. This has been the case so far. If DTV can provide all locals for all areas then it will not be an issue.
> 
> 2. Are the HR21s specs for resolution and signal sensitvity the same as the HR20-700s? It seems that the HR20-100 is more sensitive than the HR20-700 for off the air and perhaps sat. 1080p upconversion would be nice if the HR21 can do that.


Why would you need an upconversion? Just about every display device that is capable of displaying 1080p native can upconvert--and probably better--from 1080i or even 720p.


----------



## Splendor

hdtvfan0001 said:


> DLB (dual live buffers) can be supported in any of the HR20 or HR21 series DVR's when D*TV determines to add that capability to the firmware for all of those units - it is not hardware dependent. So far, they have chosen not to do it, but it certainly may happen in the future.


Should I hold my breath?


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

I wouldn't.


----------



## Doug Brott

Splendor said:


> Should I hold my breath?


Do you want to live?  .. Nope, don't look for DLB here.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Splendor said:


> Should I hold my breath?





Doug Brott said:


> Do you want to live?  ..


What's the record for holding one's breath..... :lol:

I suspect it will be a bit longer that that measure of time. But its on the radar screen. I think of it like being on my wife's "to-do" list...I'll get to it "soon". 

:backtotop


----------



## Doug Brott

Speaking of :backtotop

A poll/thread has been opened for discussion of the lack of OTA in the HR21 .. Let's avoid the OTA discussions that have been prevalent in this thread and use this thread instead if you are going to talk about the lack of OTA in the HR21.

Thank You.


----------



## MikeR

Ken_F said:


> I could have sworn I posted this information more than a month ago.


I remember you posting that info, and other good tidbits.

Let us know when you have info on the HR22. 

back on topic:

I like the ethernet porting option on the HR21.


----------



## jpitlick

I'm sure it's been asked many times, but how do I get on the field tester list?


----------



## LameLefty

jpitlick said:


> I'm sure it's been asked many times, but how do I get on the field tester list?


No one but perhaps Earl and the other moderators knows.  Those of us on the HR21 list had a pretty wide variety of equipment, posting history/post count here, and a huge variety of backgrounds and personal experience. I suspect it's not totally random but I have no idea how it was done. I was just glad to participate.


----------



## Doug Brott

Re: lack of features in the HR20 now that HR21 is out



> Engadget Article
> its a problem because some will want to use the ATSC tuner but also will want to take advantage of other features directv is getting ready to roll out (swm, on-demand?)
> 
> (what were they calling their system again? directv active? the hr20/h20 will not be able to use this, correct?)


Just to clarify a quote that I noted @ Engadget. Truth is that both the HR20 and the HR21 are SWM capable. I suspect all new receivers will be SWM capable as well. And, regarding On Demand - DIRECTV On Demand is in field trials now on the HR20-700. As far as I know, the HR21-700 does not have access to On Demand at this point.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> No one but perhaps Earl and the other moderators knows.


Maybe we had to be OTA-haters. :lol:

*[I couldn't resist...even though I have 2 OTA DVR's as well]*


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Maybe we had to be OTA-haters. :lol:


That's gotta be it. 

Look, I don't hate OTA - I hate my stupid local broadcasters for locating their towers on different (low) hills all around the city, all of which are too far away from me. Other than that, I'm sure it's all rainbows and unicorns. :lol:


----------



## cartrivision

Splendor said:


> Because, with the addition of a simple OTA connection the HR21 becomes obviously superior. Without it, it's simply another option. I'm no ad wizard, but it seems to me that when introducing a new product you should try to make it better than the old one. *Especially when the majority of the customers ordering this product from D* won't even have the option to specify whether they want the HR20 or HR21.*


Whether or not customers will be able to routinely specify that they want a model with OTA capability remains to be seen. I hope that they do allow a choice to be specified because there are probably a few people here who don't want to see me start another thread telling people about how it is possible to get a specific model receiver shipped to you. :nono2: :nono: :nono2: :nono: :nono2: :nono: :nono2:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cartrivision said:


> Whether or not customers will be able to routinely specify that they want a model with OTA capability remains to be seen. I hope that they do allow a choice to be specified because there are probably a few people here who don't want to see me start another thread telling people about how it is possible to get a specific model receiver shipped to you. :nono2: :nono: :nono2: :nono: :nono2: :nono: :nono2:


Keep in mind all this HR21 stuff is new to the D*TV CSR's as well. We've known about it longer than they have, so it will take a few weeks of internal training to get everyone up to speed. That said, if someone specifies they need an OTA antenna because of lack of HD locals in their market, as well as the HR20 series DVR, the CSR could probably care less if you choose that path or else if you select the new HR21 without the OTA antenna (when the inventory supplies hit their warehouses soon).

If you don't specify anything, you may get whatever the installer picks up from inventory that day.


----------



## mopzo

Nice work gentlemen. Appreciate the effort. But no OTA.....


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mopzo said:


> Nice work gentlemen. Appreciate the effort. But no OTA.....


He used the O word.....I heard it......:lol:

Seriously though....Drew and I enjoyed working on it. More important, it was nice to be able to share the results from a number of fellow tester contributors who also spent their time on various elements of its contents.

We were excited getting it, testing it, and working with it....now its almost time others can enjoy it as well.

It sure looks nice in my rack with the other black components (*the last picture at the end of the review is the view of my current rack install.)*


----------



## traderfjp

Hi,

I just ordered an HR20 DVR box to be installed at the end of this month. Should I wait for the HR21?? Has D released these new units yet? 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## jmschnur

The kick is "probably better". It might be nice to have a really good MPEG4 to 1080p output tuned by DTV for DTV.



ShiningBengal said:


> Why would you need an upconversion? Just about every display device that is capable of displaying 1080p native can upconvert--and probably better--from 1080i or even 720p.


----------



## mburns

awsome


----------



## LameLefty

traderfjp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just ordered an HR20 DVR box to be installed at the end of this month.


Good for you! I've had mine for a year now. A decent box that turned into a great one as bugs were squished along the way. 



> Should I wait for the HR21??


Why? It does basically the same things the same way. But if you need or want OTA capability, the answer is no. That's what it was specifically created NOT to do.



> Has D released these new units yet?


Some of us testers have had them for some time, but they won't be in the retail chain for a bit yet - days at least, possibly weeks. And no one knows how many of them will be available initially.



> Thanks in advance.


You're welcome.


----------



## Cage

What is the best way to get this nifty machine without having to pay gigantic upgrade fee?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Cage said:


> What is the best way to get this nifty machine without having to pay gigantic upgrade fee?


Call DirecTV and see if you qualify for a reduced rate on the system.
That's it...

Unless you can sweet talk a vendor, or go the eBay route.


----------



## smiddy

Cage said:


> What is the best way to get this nifty machine without having to pay gigantic upgrade fee?


Cage, what do you have now? That will make a difference is how you approach DirecTV CSR. As Earl says too, you may already qualify for an upgrade depending.


----------



## traderfjp

I've had one for a while now too the HR20 is a 2nd box. I too lived through the bugs, CE's and testing. It was worth it because this box is way better than anything else out there short of Tivo. I've tried Cablevision and FIOS. There boxes both suck.


----------



## Jeremy W

traderfjp said:


> I've had one for a while now too the HR20 is a 2nd box.


What? You had an HR21? How did you get it?


----------



## mhayes70

Jeremy W said:


> What? You had an HR21? How did you get it?


I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## cover

I read enough of this thread to know this topic has already been beaten nearly to death. Nevertheless, in case any one with influence is reading this, I'm adding my 2 cents worth. Actually it's more than $100/month to DirecTV.

I won't buy or use a box that has no OTA tuners. Even if I could get all the programming I want (PBS, etc.) through the sat, which I can't. 

The bottom line for me is that the HD LiL from the Sat is not quite as sharp and clear as my local OTA broadcasts. If you've invested a lot of money in equipment to get the best HD picture possible, it doesn't make sense to use the lower quality LiL sat signal if you've got a perfectly good OTA signal that has a clearer picture.

As long as I can easily get a current, well-supported DVR with OTA tuners, then all is well. If / when my only choice from DirecTV is a DVR without OTA tuners, it may well be a deal breaker.

P.S. Thanks to everyone who put the review together - nice work.


----------



## Ryan

P Smith said:


> Well you posting your question totally offtopic .


Huh, this is related to the lack of OTA?

Are you the topic police?


----------



## P Smith

Ryan said:


> Huh, this is related to the lack of OTA?
> 
> Are you the topic police?


No that question was about H20/HR20 models - "Can someone point me to a breakdown in the differences between the 20-100 & 20-700 units? Thanks..." and was 100 posts ago !


----------



## ShiningBengal

cover said:


> The bottom line for me is that the HD LiL from the Sat is not quite as sharp and clear as my local OTA broadcasts. If you've invested a lot of money in equipment to get the best HD picture possible, it doesn't make sense to use the lower quality LiL sat signal if you've got a perfectly good OTA signal that has a clearer picture.


I've invested a lot of money in my HT system--approximately $35,000--and I can see no difference whatever between the MPEG4 HD LiL picture and the corresponding HD OTA local. On a 102" diagonal screen I'm quite sure if there were a difference, I'd see it.

The only video source that is clearly better on my setup is from my Blu-ray disk player (audio FAR better).

That said, I can't get all of my locals from the satellite, plus it's nice to have OTA available on the occassions that weather kills the satellite signal.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mhayes70 said:


> I was wondering the same thing.


We know better guys, don't we....


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We know better guys, don't we....


You never know, he could be friends with Chase Carey or something. :lol:


----------



## traderfjp

mhayes70 said:


> I was wondering the same thing.


I had an HR20 for a while.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

traderfjp said:


> I had an HR20 for a while.


Mystery solved.

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Jeremy W

traderfjp said:


> I had an HR20 for a while.


When you're in a thread about a receiver that has been in private field testing, don't quote another post, and start yours with "I've had one for a while now too," the reasonable assumption is that you're talking about the receiver the thread is about.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> When you're in a thread about a receiver that has been in private field testing, don't quote another post, and start yours with "I've had one for a while now too," the reasonable assumption is that you're talking about the receiver the thread is about.


 .. I'm sure we'll have a bit of confusion for a little while. After all, the HR20-700 and the HR21-700 are not that far apart .


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> After all, the HR20-700 and the HR21-700 are not that far apart .


Tell me about it! I can't even remember how many times I typed "HR21" in a post in a public forum, and had to catch myself before posting it. Luckily, I managed to never let any slip up get posted.


----------



## natops

Hr21-700 now in B B. I just brought one home. I ordered upgrade from D last sat. (Currently have hr10-250 apparantly a dinosaur) I am not sure that I will like it without the OTA but I want the available HD programing. Anyway they are in the store if anybody wants to know.


----------



## azarby

natops said:


> Hr21-700 now in B B. I just brought one home. I ordered upgrade from D last sat. (Currently have hr10-250 apparantly a dinosaur) I am not sure that I will like it without the OTA but I want the available HD programing. Anyway they are in the store if anybody wants to know.


Let us know which SW version it has installed?

bob


----------



## natops

azarby said:


> Let us know which SW version it has installed?
> 
> bob


D is changing out the dish tomorrow A.M.. I will let you know.


----------



## NFLnut

Leaving out the OTA tuners was a BIG mistake!!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

NFLnut said:


> Leaving out the OTA tuners was a BIG mistake!!


Okay... we get the point that some people have an issue that there is a product out there without ATSC support...


----------



## natops

azarby said:


> Let us know which SW version it has installed?
> 
> bob


not sure what was loaded. Right after activating the box, it installed an updated software verion 016C.


----------



## Jeremy W

natops said:


> not sure what was loaded. Right after activating the box, it installed an updated software verion 016C.


Makes sense, that's what our boxes were running until we got a new version pushed out to us yesterday night. Yours probably didn't update though, I think it was just pushed out to the field testers.


----------



## babzog

After reading the review (VERY nicely put together, BTW!!!), that's the impression I gleaned. No ATSC tuners, slightly bigger HD and a bit cooler running. Seems like a cheaper box for DTV to build but according to Earl, same cost for consumers. The logical question to ask then, is why would anyone want a stripped down HR20 for the same price as an HR20?


----------



## Jeremy W

babzog said:


> The logical question to ask then, is why would anyone want a stripped down HR20 for the same price as an HR20?


I really can't see the HR21 staying at the same price as the HR20 for very long. It wouldn't make any sense.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

NFLnut said:


> Leaving out the OTA tuners was...


No mistake - done by design. Discussed 10o0 times now.


----------



## LanMan

Just a quick FYI - Since I am considering switching from Dish to DirecTV, I dropped by my local CC and BestBuy this morning and BestBuy had 2 HR-21s on the shelf. On the box they refer to the R-16 as their SD DVR. Does anybody know the difference between the R-15 and the R-16?

Thanks


----------



## jtn

LanMan said:


> Just a quick FYI - Since I am considering switching from Dish to DirecTV, I dropped by my local CC and BestBuy this morning and BestBuy had 2 HR-21s on the shelf. On the box they refer to the R-16 as their SD DVR. Does anybody know the difference between the R-15 and the R-16?
> 
> Thanks


http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=R16

"Unlike the previous models, this receivers does NOT have a built in NTSC tuner (for off-air programming)" (i.e. OTA)


----------



## bobnielsen

jtn said:


> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=R16
> 
> "Unlike the previous models, this receivers does NOT have a built in NTSC tuner (for off-air programming)" (i.e. OTA)


I didn't think any Directv receivers had NTSC tuners. The HD models (other than the H21/HR21) have ATSC tuners. The biggest differences I can see are that the R16 is black and is SWM-compatible.


----------



## jtn

bobnielsen said:


> I didn't think any Directv receivers had NTSC tuners. The HD models (other than the H21/HR21) have ATSC tuners. The biggest differences I can see are that the R16 is black and is SWM-compatible.


quoting what the website said, the R16 is a SD unit not an HD unit. So it would be NTSC if SD, eventually however they will need it for ATSC, it could be a typo by the website. That's why I gave the URL to help out.


----------



## RobertE

jtn said:


> quoting what the website said, the R16 is a SD unit not an HD unit. So it would be NTSC if SD, eventually however they will need it for ATSC, it could be a typo by the website. That's why I gave the URL to help out.


Unfortunately the web site is wrong.

Like the R15 and all other D* branded SD boxes, it does not have a NTSC tuner, just a simple rf pass through.

Another error is that it mentions the Kids Mix, which has been off the air for what, at least six months now. It also mentions Resolution Formats. So on SD box you have a choice of 480 or 480.   Not to mention the typos. But since I can't spell myself, I'll let those slide.


----------



## jtn

RobertE said:


> Unfortunately the web site is wrong.
> 
> Like the R15 and all other D* branded SD boxes, it does not have a NTSC tuner, just a simple rf pass through.
> 
> Another error is that it mentions the Kids Mix, which has been off the air for what, at least six months now. It also mentions Resolution Formats. So on SD box you have a choice of 480 or 480.   Not to mention the typos. But since I can't spell myself, I'll let those slide.


It's a website URL typo. Best to wait until it's on the DirecTV site to get the facts on the model.


----------



## RobertE

jtn said:


> It's a website URL typo. Best to wait until it's on the DirecTV site to get the facts on the model.


Nah, I'll just wait for another excellent DBSTalk First Look.


----------



## pendragn

I went to Best Buy today. They only have HR21s and said they would not be getting any more HR20s.  I was in there because my HR10-250 died and I had a service plan for it. They tried to give me an HR21 in exchange. Since DirecTV doesn't carry Des Moines' network stations in HD I get my HD network stations OTA that wasn't going to work. So they have to get an HR20 from a different store that still has them in stock. What a mess.

tk


----------



## ncsercs

Got my HR21 tonight at the Best Buy in Downers Grove, IL. They came in just today. They have 3 left. Made in China.


----------



## ShiningBengal

ncsercs said:


> Got my HR21 tonight at the Best Buy in Downers Grove, IL. They came in just today. They have 3 left. Made in China.


Surprised? No consumer electronics are made in the US. Nearly all are made either in Mexico or Asia.


----------



## ncsercs

ShiningBengal said:


> Surprised? No consumer electronics are made in the US. Nearly all are made either in Mexico or Asia.


Only because I thought all of them were made in Mexico.


----------



## sarfdawg

I read the first two or three pages and the last half dozen or so pages of this thread, and wow - I can't believe the tone of some of the postings.

How quickly we lost sight of the point. The two fellas that did the "first look" did a *great *job.

Secondly, there are some people that get really miffed when people who clearly didn't read all 19 pages of postings make repetitive statements. Not sure that's necessary, and I'm not sure how excited I am about participating in discussions that involve insultory comments... and "duh" and "uh" and "ummm..." all count. I teach in a local high school, and that's what I see from my 15-18 year olds - not from a crowd of fairly intelligent folks.

Now, back to the topic. The HR-21 is not for me (wonder why), and my hope is that the HR-20 will not eventually get phased out. None of these receivers are going to last forever, and when mine eventually craps out (hopefully, several years from now), I hope there's one similar in functionality to the HR-20. (I'm sure that's an echo of a comment "100 posts ago" so I apologize in advance)


----------



## jakimj

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I just can't believe how much a small number of people continue to *crave* OTA. I've had it for 9 years as a backup plan prior to LIL, but now, if it went away tomorrow...it's not that big a deal. Let it go....let it go......


Was going to respond to the "let it go" reference, but deleted the original post contents due to references to wanting HD PBS signals in SF Bay Area. But since that horse is dead on this thread I am cleaning up my trash.

I will say that the HR21 will have an easier life, IMO, if D* would get a PBS HD feed of SOME SORT. Lots of good stuff on PBS which I will need to add (* deleted due to OTA Reference *) to my gear to watch.


----------



## GP245

Big problem with providing a national PBS feed - local PBS stations' will not have their fund-raising weeks available to viewers.

With government and corporations cutting back on funding, local appeals are more important than ever!


----------



## sbayne

GP245 said:


> Big problem with providing a national PBS feed - local PBS stations' will not have their fund-raising weeks available to viewers.
> 
> With government and corporations cutting back on funding, local appeals are more important than ever!


At least in the NYC local area, we wouldn't need a national PBS channel. It would just be great if Directv would include the HD version of WNET Thirteen as part of my local channels package as a number of cable systems do!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jakimj said:


> Was going to respond to the "let it go" reference, but deleted the original post contents due to references to wanting HD PBS signals in SF Bay Area. But since that horse is dead on this thread I am cleaning up my trash.
> 
> I will say that the HR21 will have an easier life, IMO, if D* would get a PBS HD feed of SOME SORT.


Thanks for the feedback. I spent 1 1/2 hours going through the whole thread again myself last night, and recorded the OTA post counts - the point was made pages and pages ago with continued overkill.

That said, I also determined that if PBD HD was included in locals (where available), at least 60% of the OTA posts would probably not have even been there - so your point is dead on that when D*TV starts to carry PBS (probably near end of 1Q 2008, the HR21 will be a solid fit for an even higher % of users than even the current majority.

What I can also tell you is that the subtle electronics improvements inside lend themselves to improved performance over the long run for MPEG-4 due to a newer processor (the majority of channels in 6 months will be via MPEG-4), faster data transfer rate to the hard disk (solid remote interactivity and reliability in playback/recording), and cooler operation overall (due to improved vent location and internal design). Finally, the HR21 internal hard drive is whisper quiet (best to date), for those (like me) who wish to have a DVR in the bedroom.

Finally, don't underestimate the appeal of the black housing. Since most HDTV's and related equipment (amps, DVD players, etc.) are found with black housings as well, the consistency of the HR21 look will be a plus. I also have 2 HR20-700's and they continue to work very well indeed...but the HR21 sure looks and performs great in my equipment rack along with the other components.


----------



## jtn

sbayne said:


> At least in the NYC local area, we wouldn't need a national PBS channel. It would just be great if Directv would include the HD version of WNET Thirteen as part of my local channels package as a number of cable systems do!


to rules from the FCC. If Comcast, and other cable operators can offer PBS in the prospective market per FCC regulations, than so can DirecTV and Dish Network. They have lousy legal departments who don't know how to get the law to work for them. I don't think the FCC favors a cable company versus a satellite company, there is no way the law will discriminate. It's the competency of the company to know what they can or cannot do. Cable companies appear to be savvier than satellite providers on laws, and therefore interpret the law correctly and offer it's customers programming. The law doesn't allow PBS to cherry pick carriers/providers and play favorites. The workaround is many just use OTA if they are in range until DirecTV wakes up and hires a better legal department to understand the statute.

My local PBS station doesn't care how you get the signal, and from whom, that being via OTA, a cable provider or satellite provider, it's the inept carrier that's not getting it right.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jtn said:


> I don't think the FCC favors a cable company versus a satellite company, there is no way the law will discriminate. It's the competency of the company to know what they can or cannot do. Cable companies appear to be savvier than satellite providers on laws, and therefore interpret the law correctly and offer it's customers programming.


Actually all this has little to do with the broadcast of PBS HD on D*TV.

1) A fair number of the PBS stations nationwide do not have the funds (they are non-profit, after all) to upgrade their transmisssion broadcast equipment to HD as of yet. There are pockets all over the country of such stations. I'm in a top 15 U.S. metro area, and yet the local PBS station still has not done an upgrade due to a lack of $$$.

2) D*TV is only at the 1st of 2 steps to increase their bandwidth to cover PBS HD in the various local markets. Once the D11 sat is lauched and oeprational in 1Q 2008, they will have exponentially more bandwidth, and you'll most likely see PBS added, as well as more cities and towns added for their local channel coverage as well.

3) D*TV has to negotiate a carriage agreement with local stations to rebroadcast their signals. To date, some areas have stations that have been a bit on the greedy side in terms of compensation, slowing down the process. For competitive reasons, look for this to be resolved over time. Unless you want to pay more $$$ like the calbe companies charge for comparible services, be patient, and you'll get your additional channels soon enough.


----------



## Rpbertxyz

I have already disconnected the OTA from the HR20-700, to see how much I really need it. After a week, I find I don't need it as the satellite locals are equal to the OTA PQ wise. I now just route the OTA to the TV. A one button push of my Pronto switches from the satellite to the TV. 

The main reason I will get the HR21 is the color black. That silver just doesn't make for a nice setup. Since I own my HR20-700, it shouldn't be hard to sell to people that need OTA.


----------



## jtn

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Actually all this has little to do with the broadcast of PBS HD on D*TV.
> 
> 1) A fair number of the PBS stations nationwide do not have the funds (they are non-profit, after all) to upgrade their transmisssion broadcast equipment to HD as of yet. There are pockets all over the country of such stations. I'm in a top 15 U.S. metro area, and yet the local PBS station still has not done an upgrade due to a lack of $$$.
> 
> 2) D*TV is only at the 1st of 2 steps to increase their bandwidth to cover PBS HD in the various local markets. Once the D11 sat is lauched and oeprational in 1Q 2008, they will have exponentially more bandwidth, and you'll most likely see PBS added, as well as more cities and towns added for their local channel coverage as well.
> 
> 3) D*TV has to negotiate a carriage agreement with local stations to rebroadcast their signals. To date, some areas have stations that have been a bit on the greedy side in terms of compensation, slowing down the process. For competitive reasons, look for this to be resolved over time. Unless you want to pay more $$$ like the calbe companies charge for comparible services, be patient, and you'll get your additional channels soon enough.


PBS SD/HD can be received still OTA with HR20 for now, until DirecTV has the bandwidth/satellite capacity, and PBS can get the funding by public and government to update to HD in all markets.


----------



## flapbreaker

OK, I can't find this info anywhere but what does the ethernet ports allow you to do? Can you transfer programs between receivers? Online scheduling?


----------



## Jeremy W

flapbreaker said:


> OK, I can't find this info anywhere but what does the ethernet ports allow you to do? Can you transfer programs between receivers? Online scheduling?


For now, nothing more than the HR20. It does Media Share, and that's it. Soon, it will be used for VOD and online scheduling confirmations. In the more distant future, it will probably used to transfer programs between receivers.

It is important to note, though, that online scheduling does *not* require an Internet connection to work. The request gets sent over the satellite, and the Internet connection is only used to confirm receipt of the request.


----------



## flapbreaker

Jeremy W said:


> For now, nothing more than the HR20. It does Media Share, and that's it. Soon, it will be used for VOD and online scheduling confirmations. In the more distant future, it will probably used to transfer programs between receivers.
> 
> It is important to note, though, that online scheduling does *not* require an Internet connection to work. The request gets sent over the satellite, and the Internet connection is only used to confirm receipt of the request.


Are you saying that you can do online scheduling now? THanks for the info.


----------



## Jeremy W

flapbreaker said:


> Are you saying that you can do online scheduling now? THanks for the info.


Not on the HR21. The HR20's current CE release has it, and that software will be going national very soon, probably this week.


----------



## 1953

Who benefits from and what is the purpose of the implementation of an HD-DVR that does not process OTA HD? 

1953


----------



## Doug Brott

1953 said:


> Who benefits from and what is the purpose of the implementation of an HD-DVR that does not process OTA HD?
> 
> 1953


As has been stated numerous times in this thread, DIRECTV is trying to save money on the production of the box. It seems that the HR20 will remain in production for now allowing both options for folks.


----------



## jakimj

GP245 said:


> Big problem with providing a national PBS feed - local PBS stations' will not have their fund-raising weeks available to viewers.
> 
> With government and corporations cutting back on funding, local appeals are more important than ever!


Split a monthly $10 between National and Local (20/80)

Might even go to monthly $20 for both. Might be the reason they are not there yet? Are there any advertiser free HD channels on D*?

Then would give D$ $$$ for a total house HD upgrade. Including 2 of the HR-21.

This is compelling:



hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...improved performance over the long run for MPEG-4 due to a newer processor (the majority of channels in 6 months will be via MPEG-4), faster data transfer rate to the hard disk (solid remote interactivity and reliability in playback/recording), and cooler operation overall (due to improved vent location and internal design)...




But for me ... this is not


hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...the black housing...)


But ... I have one of these


----------



## Jeremy W

jakimj said:


> Are there any advertiser free HD channels on D*?


Smithsonian is, and I believe MGM is as well.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

1953 said:


> Who benefits from and what is the purpose of the implementation of an HD-DVR that does not process OTA HD?


The majority of the D*TV customer base. :beatdeadhorse: 


jakimj said:


> But ... I have one of these


Now there's a slick item.....


----------



## 1953

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The majority of the D*TV customer base. :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> I guess I have to bite on this hook. Are you saying that the majority of DTV customers never need access to OTA broadcasting?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

1953 said:


> I guess I have to bite on this hook. Are you saying that the majority of DTV customers never need access to OTA broadcasting?


Need and desire are 2 different things, but I am not saying anything - fact is - D*TV's experience has been that most users have no desire for OTA. That is why they invested hundreds of millions to deliver local MPEG-4 HD channels. It's that simple.

That said, some do. For each (OTA fans and non-OTA fans), there is a receiver and a DVR available. This has been discussed at nauseum here.

If everyone wanted the same thing, they would only have 1 HD receiver and 1 HD DVR. HR21 is for that larger group that does not desire OTA.


----------



## ShiningBengal

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now there's a slick item.....


Hmmm..."slick" is not the term that comes to my mind. More like "garish.":new_Eyecr


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ShiningBengal said:


> Hmmm..."slick" is not the term that comes to my mind. More like "garish.":new_Eyecr


:lol: :lol: :lol:

...but it goes so well with my pocket protector.... 

Maybe there's one hidden inside my HR21-700 box somewhere and I just didn't notice.... :eek2:


----------



## Sailorman

I had Directv install a Hr21-700 on Saturday. I moved from a hr-10-250. One problem I am having is when I am watching a recorded show and then leave this recorded show and go to the guide, or list, or to another recorded show, when I return to the first show it starts over from the begining. It is not remembering where I was in the show when I left, like my Hr-10-250 did. What am I doing wrong?


----------



## say-what

Sailorman said:


> I had Directv install a Hr21-700 on Saturday. I moved from a hr-10-250. One problem I am having is when I am watching a recorded show and then leave this recorded show and go to the guide, or list, or to another recorded show, when I return to the first show it starts over from the begining. It is not remembering where I was in the show when I left, like my Hr-10-250 did. What am I doing wrong?


Not sure. I know when I exit a previously recorded show, it's resumed where I left off in the past. As best as I recall, I've always exited the recording using the stop button, I don't recall trying to tune to a live channel via the guide or direct channel entry to exit a recording or pressing list to select a different recording while the current recording is in progress, that may cause an issue. Haven't tried with the new CE and will check.


----------



## bobnielsen

Sailorman said:


> I had Directv install a Hr21-700 on Saturday. I moved from a hr-10-250. One problem I am having is when I am watching a recorded show and then leave this recorded show and go to the guide, or list, or to another recorded show, when I return to the first show it starts over from the begining. It is not remembering where I was in the show when I left, like my Hr-10-250 did. What am I doing wrong?


My wife is sleeping in today so I can't check my HR21right now, but I recall that when you hit the select button on the recorded show, the menu has both "resume" and "start over" entries.


----------



## cover

ShiningBengal said:


> I've invested a lot of money in my HT system--approximately $35,000--and I can see no difference whatever between the MPEG4 HD LiL picture and the corresponding HD OTA local. On a 102" diagonal screen I'm quite sure if there were a difference, I'd see it.


Maybe, but it seems to me that to fully take in a 102" screen you'd have to be watching from some distance where you may be less likely to notice small defects.

Watching on 42" and 60" 1080p displays, my locals have decidedly less detail from the sat than OTA. The level of detail from the sat really drops if the scene changes suddenly, such as camera panning during a football game. From the way the image is degraded, it is because of compression.

Is the HD LiL from the SAT pretty good? Sure, and most people might not notice or care about the difference. But, there is a difference, especially on challenging content like sports. For most TV shows that don't push the limits of what the compression can handle, the difference may not be significant -- but there is a difference. I still want the best quality HD signal I can get, and right now that OTA.

So, I say again to anyone at DirecTV that may be reading this, I will switch providers if that becomes necessary to have a DVR with OTA tuners. Hopefully, DirecTV will continue to have HR20's or a newer box with OTA tuners.


----------



## mhayes70

Sailorman said:


> I had Directv install a Hr21-700 on Saturday. I moved from a hr-10-250. One problem I am having is when I am watching a recorded show and then leave this recorded show and go to the guide, or list, or to another recorded show, when I return to the first show it starts over from the begining. It is not remembering where I was in the show when I left, like my Hr-10-250 did. What am I doing wrong?


I haven't had this problem. Mine has been resuming where I left off.


----------



## cover

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Need and desire are 2 different things, but I am not saying anything - fact is - D*TV's experience has been that most users have no desire for OTA. That is why they invested hundreds of millions to deliver local MPEG-4 HD channels. It's that simple.


I think the reason they invested so much money to do this is because they had to. Since congress effectively killed distant nets, it was necessary to broadcast SD LiL. Since local cable companies offer HD locals, it was necessary to provide HD LiL to compete.

I will agree that most users have no desire for OTA. Most users don't care that much about picture quality and most users don't want to hassle with an OTA antenna. Frankly, I'd rather not hassle with an OTA antenna myself. But, until I have a good alternative that provides HD locals with no degradation in picture quality, that's what I'll do.

The HR20 probably makes sense for the majority of DirecTV customers. My point is that there is a vocal minority of customers who do care about OTA (myself among them) and I hope that DirecTV will not abandon us.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cover said:


> My point is that there is a vocal minority of customers who do care about OTA (myself among them) and I hope that DirecTV will not abandon us.


I agree and share your hope that those wanting OTA should not be abandoned. As of now, there is absolutely no indication it will happen.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I guess these are just a figment of our imagination....

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7959051&type=product&id=1155071079972

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/DIRECTV-Plus-HD-DVR-HR20S/sem/rpsm/oid/159819/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do


----------



## jtn

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess these are just a figment of our imagination....
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7959051&type=product&id=1155071079972
> 
> http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/DIRECTV-Plus-HD-DVR-HR20S/sem/rpsm/oid/159819/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do


at these sites, nothing about HR21.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jtn said:


> at these sites, nothing about HR21.


...and yet there are a number of posts here indicating they have already been seen in both stores, and also installed...the Best Buy site not current?....who woulda thought...


----------



## ShiningBengal

cover said:


> Maybe, but it seems to me that to fully take in a 102" screen you'd have to be watching from some distance where you may be less likely to notice small defects.
> 
> Watching on 42" and 60" 1080p displays, my locals have decidedly less detail from the sat than OTA. The level of detail from the sat really drops if the scene changes suddenly, such as camera panning during a football game. From the way the image is degraded, it is because of compression.
> 
> Is the HD LiL from the SAT pretty good? Sure, and most people might not notice or care about the difference. But, there is a difference, especially on challenging content like sports. For most TV shows that don't push the limits of what the compression can handle, the difference may not be significant -- but there is a difference. I still want the best quality HD signal I can get, and right now that OTA.
> 
> So, I say again to anyone at DirecTV that may be reading this, I will switch providers if that becomes necessary to have a DVR with OTA tuners. Hopefully, DirecTV will continue to have HR20's or a newer box with OTA tuners.


Yes, you do have to sit _proportionally _further back than you would on a 60" display--or even a 20" for that matter. I see this as a non-issue.

But no broadcast, be it satellite, cable or OTA gives you 1080p, so you are watching an upconverted image on your sets--in some cases from 720p! In order to make a realistic comparison, you need to be watching in the native format.

I can definitely see the difference between MPEG2 and MPEG4 HD satellite channels. I have compared MPEG2 and MPEG4 on HBO channels 501 and 509. It makes a huge improvement.

I can also see pixelization on OTA channels--particularly PBS--in some cases it's so bad it is unwatchable. It is also present on the commercial networks when watching anything demanding of bandwidth.

That said, I agree that OTA should be an option--even if they have to charge for it. The integration in the program guide is a real plus. It would be very difficult to try to use a stand alone ATSC tuner when nearly everything I watch is recorded.


----------



## smiddy

I'm sorry, what the heck is this thread about, oh yeah, First Look. Yep, looks good to me, I'll take two they're small!


----------



## RobertE

ShiningBengal said:


> I can also see pixelization on OTA channels--particularly PBS--in some cases it's so bad it is unwatchable. It is also present on the commercial networks when watching anything demanding of bandwidth.


Ironicly, PBS in some areas can be the worst offender out there. Why, because they have up to six sub channels in some area.


----------



## cover

ShiningBengal said:


> But no broadcast, be it satellite, cable or OTA gives you 1080p, so you are watching an upconverted image on your sets--in some cases from 720p! In order to make a realistic comparison, you need to be watching in the native format.
> 
> I can definitely see the difference between MPEG2 and MPEG4 HD satellite channels. I have compared MPEG2 and MPEG4 on HBO channels 501 and 509. It makes a huge improvement.
> 
> I can also see pixelization on OTA channels--particularly PBS--in some cases it's so bad it is unwatchable. It is also present on the commercial networks when watching anything demanding of bandwidth.
> 
> That said, I agree that OTA should be an option--even if they have to charge for it. The integration in the program guide is a real plus. It would be very difficult to try to use a stand alone ATSC tuner when nearly everything I watch is recorded.


Yes, I should have said that the TVs are 1080p capable. AFAIK, the only practical way to get a 1080p source is Blu-ray or HD-DVD. I do have the HR20 set to native pass-through, but upconversion to 1080p must be done in the displays.

I hadn't taken time to compare HBO MPEG2 and MPEG4 yet. It is nice to know that there is a difference there. I'll have to start recording HBO from the MPEG4.

I was watching HD Theater this weekend and noticed considerable pixelation. Hopefully we won't be seeing that on the MPEG4 channels to such a degree.

I also see pixelation with OTA occasionally, but usually only with sports - and usually if the station is multi-casting.

I'm with you - practically everything I watch is recorded. A DVR with ATSC OTA tuners is a must-have. I guess I'd consider buying a standalone HD TiVo for OTA if I had to. But, I'm running out of inputs and the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) on adding another recorder would probably be pretty low. Hopefully DirecTV will keep providing us with OTA tuners.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ShiningBengal said:


> But no broadcast, be it satellite, cable or OTA gives you 1080p, so you are watching an upconverted image on your sets--in some cases from 720p! In order to make a realistic comparison, you need to be watching in the native format.





cover said:


> Yes, I should have said that the TVs are 1080p capable. AFAIK, the only practical way to get a 1080p source is Blu-ray or HD-DVD. I do have the HR20 set to native pass-through, but upconversion to 1080p must be done in the displays.


:backtotop :backtotop


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Good to see that BB and CC still have them. I was at Costco tonight after work and they didn't have any HR20's left, but had about 7 or 8 of them about a week and a half ago.


----------



## rklindb

Greetings - 1st post, but need expert advice. Following DTV's huge advertising blitz last week (10+pages in USA Today), I upgraded from a 10-250. We've had it for over a year, and have much access to HDTV on it, and also on OTA. Yesterday, DTV's crew installed a 5 LNB dish and the HR21-700. The box is nice looking, the menu's are an improvement (faster response), etc. The problem is the picture quality. Remember, all I did was remove the 10-250 and replace it with the 21-700. All cables, the TV (Sony LCD Projection) are the same. Here is what we notice. When watching a live show, the picture is similar to that of the 10-250. Neither is as good as the OTA broadcast. However, we watched a recording of "Chuck" on NBC last night. It is in HD of course, the the recorded picture is bad. Anything in the program that was white (shirts), or highlighted by sun or lights was completly washed out. It was "clipped" completely. The backgrounds, when dark, were pixelated and uneven. Granted that was only one sample, but my first review is not a good one. Any suggestions?

Thanks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

That is not necessarily a result of the HR21...

But could be because of your local area's MPEG-4 encoding of the NBC signal.

Not all areas have received the upgraded encoders and software yet (which is an on-going project).

Check some of the national channels like Smithsonian to see if things look any different.


----------



## smiddy

rklindb said:


> Greetings - 1st post, but need expert advice. Following DTV's huge advertising blitz last week (10+pages in USA Today), I upgraded from a 10-250. We've had it for over a year, and have much access to HDTV on it, and also on OTA. Yesterday, DTV's crew installed a 5 LNB dish and the HR21-700. The box is nice looking, the menu's are an improvement (faster response), etc. The problem is the picture quality. Remember, all I did was remove the 10-250 and replace it with the 21-700. All cables, the TV (Sony LCD Projection) are the same. Here is what we notice. When watching a live show, the picture is similar to that of the 10-250. Neither is as good as the OTA broadcast. However, we watched a recording of "Chuck" on NBC last night. It is in HD of course, the the recorded picture is bad. Anything in the program that was white (shirts), or highlighted by sun or lights was completly washed out. It was "clipped" completely. The backgrounds, when dark, were pixelated and uneven. Granted that was only one sample, but my first review is not a good one. Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks.


:welcome_s Welcome aboard...I can only suggest what Earl did, check another channel as you posted out a sample of 1 is just that. I've heard that the picture quality is the same as the same as the HR20...FWIW. I haven't seen one of these yet to know though.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> :welcome_s Welcome aboard...I can only suggest what Earl did, check another channel as you posted out a sample of 1 is just that. I've heard that the picture quality is the same as the same as the HR20...FWIW. I haven't seen one of these yet to know though.


The picture quality on the HR21-700 is as great as any HD receiver/DVR to date.

You may also want to go into the setup menu and check just how your resolution and other settings are currently configured, as those can make a major difference in the results.


----------



## highheater

What's interesting is that despite 11 pages of a dedicated OTA thread, most of the commentary here is still about OTA or related subjects (signal quality, HR 20 availability, etc). A subject just not as easily dismissed as some would like.


----------



## Doug Brott

highheater said:


> What's interesting is that despite 11 pages of a dedicated OTA thread, most of the commentary here is still about OTA or related subjects (signal quality, HR 20 availability, etc). A subject just not as easily dismissed as some would like.


This thread has definitely tempered a bit and I will continue to move OTA "debate" posts to the other thread.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

highheater said:


> What's interesting is that despite 11 pages of a dedicated OTA thread, most of the commentary here is still about OTA or related subjects (signal quality, HR 20 availability, etc). A subject just not as easily dismissed as some would like.


So... what's your point? What is intresting about it?

Are you that shocked that after people read the review the HR21-700 is very similar to the HR20-700... minus the OTA...


----------



## wxman1969

I just upgraded from the 10-250 yesterday. Install went great. The installer was nice enough to throw in a multiswitch to allow me to keep my 10-250 running side by side with the new unit. Now, speaking of that, I had specifically asked for the HR20 because there are a couple OTA stations (one is channel 9-1, KCAL in Los Angeles) that I want that are not available via sat. But the HR21 was installed instead. I really like it except for the lack of OTA. I still have the 10-250 connected to the antenna and could use that when I need to watch something on those channels, but this is a drag because it requires me to switch the inputs in the back of the TV (I only have 2 HD inputs and one is being used by the DVD/XBOX). Is there anyway to find out if/when additional LiL's will be added to the sat feed? If we're just talking a few weeks or even a month or two I can deal with it.

Second, there have been many comments in this thread suggesting that the only difference between the 20 and 21 is the lack of OTA. However, I have also seen references to other differences like not being able to do online recordings, etc. I know that specific software discussions have been prohibited so I hope I'm not crossing that line, but is it expected that the 21 will eventually have all the same features as the 20 (w/o OTA), including the online features? Although I don't expect to be using that feature extensively, it would be nice to have.

I ask these questions because I am strongly considering calling Directv and asking them to switch my 21 for a 20. Given my situation, is there any reason I shouldn't ask for the switch (perhaps the 21's are more reliable, etc.)? And further, what are the chances they will comply?

Thanks.


----------



## say-what

wxman1969 said:


> Is there anyway to find out if/when additional LiL's will be added to the sat feed? If we're just talking a few weeks or even a month or two I can deal with it.


Unfortunately, until they are announced, there is no way of knowing. Some of our members get advance notices and pass that along, but you stil have to wait for the notice.



> Second, there have been many comments in this thread suggesting that the only difference between the 20 and 21 is the lack of OTA. However, I have also seen references to other differences like not being able to do online recordings, etc. I know that specific software discussions have been prohibited so I hope I'm not crossing that line, but is it expected that the 21 will eventually have all the same features as the 20 (w/o OTA), including the online features? Although I don't expect to be using that feature extensively, it would be nice to have.


Remote booking and VOD require software upgrades and will eventually be available on the HR21. Remember, these 2 features were only available on the HR20-700 until the last ce enabled them on the HR20-100. So the basic feature set (other than OTA) will be available on the HR20-700, HR20-100 and HR21-700.



> I ask these questions because I am strongly considering calling Directv and asking them to switch my 21 for a 20. Given my situation, is there any reason I shouldn't ask for the switch (perhaps the 21's are more reliable, etc.)? And further, what are the chances they will comply?
> 
> Thanks.


It's unknown if they will switch the HR21 for an HR20 until you call and explain the situation. It could be that as long as they're providing LiL's (even if not all of them) that they might deny the request.


----------



## Sailorman

[

I know that specific software discussions have been prohibited so I hope I'm not crossing that line, but is it expected that the 21 will eventually have all the same features as the 20 (w/o OTA), including the online features? .]

Why can't we discuss specific software?

On Saturday I recieved an HR21-700, I was expecting the HR-20-700.

Now I find out I cannot recieve any off the air broadcasts and I have to wait a while to get Video on Demand, Hr-20 units are starting to get it now.

I am also having trouble with resuming play on a recorded program. If I leave play and check live TV or go to another recorded program, when I come back to the original recorded program and hit resume, the program starts at the beginning, instead of where I left off.

I am not at all happy with the HR21-700.

Is there anything that would make this unit worth keeping? Why would anyone want one if there are only disadvantages as compared to the HR20?


----------



## Jeremy W

Sailorman said:


> Why can't we discuss specific software?


The HR21 field testers were (are) not allowed to discuss anything about pre-release versions of the software. Anything from 0x16C on is public, and can be freely discussed by all.


----------



## jayerndl

Sailorman said:


> On Saturday I recieved an HR21-700, I was expecting the HR-20-700.
> 
> Now I find out I cannot recieve any off the air broadcasts and I have to wait a while to get Video on Demand, Hr-20 units are starting to get it now.
> 
> I am also having trouble with resuming play on a recorded program. If I leave play and check live TV or go to another recorded program, when I come back to the original recorded program and hit resume, the program starts at the beginning, instead of where I left off.
> 
> I am not at all happy with the HR21-700.
> 
> Is there anything that would make this unit worth keeping? Why would anyone want one if there are only disadvantages as compared to the HR20?


If you want/need OTA then I would definitely call D* and request an HR20. I can see this might be the beginning of a big can of worms for D*. The few buck saved on removing OTA may be negated by the unnecessary shipments/returns of the wrong units and customer dis-satisfaction.

Jay


----------



## say-what

Sailorman said:


> I am also having trouble with resuming play on a recorded program. If I leave play and check live TV or go to another recorded program, when I come back to the original recorded program and hit resume, the program starts at the beginning, instead of where I left off.


I really don't know what might be the cause of the recording playback problems you're describing as I've tested just about every manner of exiting and resuming recorded shows prior to their ending and cannot duplicate this.


> I am not at all happy with the HR21-700.
> 
> Is there anything that would make this unit worth keeping? Why would anyone want one if there are only disadvantages as compared to the HR20?


Aside from the lack of OTA, the unit is the functional equivalent of the HR20. Unless you don't get your locals from DirecTV and absolutely must have OTA, I can't think of any reasons to prefer the HR20 over the HR21. I actually prefer the HR21 to the HR20.


----------



## swarles_barkley

Sailorman said:


> I am also having trouble with resuming play on a recorded program. If I leave play and check live TV or go to another recorded program, when I come back to the original recorded program and hit resume, the program starts at the beginning, instead of where I left off.


I too am having trouble doing the "DLB workaround" on my HR21.


----------



## wxman1969

Jeremy W said:


> The HR21 field testers were (are) not allowed to discuss anything about pre-release versions of the software. Anything from 0x16C on is public, and can be freely discussed by all.


When they installed my HR21 yesterday it automatically downloaded software update version 0x16c. When you say that anything from 0x16c on is public, does that mean that there actually is a more recent and public version available to me? I'm not clear how the naming convention works with this software. How do the software versions and the timeliness of the upgrades compare to the HR20's?


----------



## Jeremy W

wxman1969 said:


> When they installed my HR21 yesterday it automatically downloaded software update version 0x16c. When you say that anything from 0x16c on is public, does that mean that there actually is a more recent and public version available to me? I'm not clear how the naming convention works with this software. How do the software versions and the timeliness of the upgrades compare to the HR20's?


0x16C is the latest version available to you right now. 0x16D is in CE testing right now, and I believe that the HR21 CE can be downloaded by any HR21, even though it's pushed out to the field testers.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> 0x16C is the latest version available to you right now. 0x16D is in CE testing right now, and I believe that the HR21 CE can be downloaded by any HR21, even though it's pushed out to the field testers.


Correct, there was a CE for the HR21 last weekend I think. It was available for anyone who had purchased (or received) an HR21-700, but as always, CEs are both optional and require a commitment to follow the rules.


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> as always, CEs are both optional and require a commitment to follow the rules.


They're not optional for the field testers. :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> They're not optional for the field testers. :lol:


Well, that is true. I also don't think you get to pick the time .. that can be both good and bad. :grin:


----------



## sfordyce

We have now field tested the hr21 700 in our house and we're underwhelmed. There is no hdmi output. The advanced support tech's have told us this output is not supported and won't be until a future sw release is out. No time frame for that release. Also, the 720 and 1080 output resoluitons are not supported. We've been told by a couple of the support tech's we've talked to that we need at least the 180 version sw release but we're currently on only the 16c release. Again, now time frame on when we'll be able to get that release.


----------



## Jeremy W

sfordyce said:


> There is no hdmi output. The advanced support tech's have told us this output is not supported and won't be until a future sw release is out. No time frame for that release. Also, the 720 and 1080 output resoluitons are not supported. We've been told by a couple of the support tech's we've talked to that we need at least the 180 version sw release but we're currently on only the 16c release. Again, now time frame on when we'll be able to get that release.


Everything you've posted here is wrong. The HR21 has HDMI, it has always worked, and it has always supported 720p and 1080i. It wouldn't be much of an HD DVR if it didn't. You have dealt with a bunch of idiots if you have been told all of this nonsense.


----------



## Doug Brott

sfordyce said:


> We have now field tested the hr21 700 in our house and we're underwhelmed. There is no hdmi output. The advanced support tech's have told us this output is not supported and won't be until a future sw release is out. No time frame for that release. Also, the 720 and 1080 output resoluitons are not supported. We've been told by a couple of the support tech's we've talked to that we need at least the 180 version sw release but we're currently on only the 16c release. Again, now time frame on when we'll be able to get that release.


You should make sure that you have enabled 720p and 1080i before they will show up. Double check your setup under Menu -> setup -> TV Type (or HDTV). Check the resolutions there and enable the ones that your TV supports.

As for HDMI, your TV might not respond to the HDMI port unless it is 720p or 1080i. Get those working first and the HDMI may start to magically work as well.

Cheers.


----------



## Sailorman

say-what said:


> I really don't know what might be the cause of the recording playback problems you're describing as I've tested just about every manner of exiting and resuming recorded shows prior to their ending and cannot duplicate this.
> Aside from the lack of OTA, the unit is the functional equivalent of the HR20. Unless you don't get your locals from DirecTV and absolutely must have OTA, I can't think of any reasons to prefer the HR20 over the HR21. I actually prefer the HR21 to the HR20.


I have more information concerning the resume not working. I have two Hr21-700 units in my home. I have found that only one of them is having this problem. My other unit will resume just fine.

On the unit that will not resume I have unplugged from power and reconnected but this has not helped. Is there anything else I should try before I send it back?


----------



## houskamp

Sailorman said:


> I have more information concerning the resume not working. I have two Hr21-700 units in my home. I have found that only one of them is having this problem. My other unit will resume just fine.
> 
> On the unit that will not resume I have unplugged from power and reconnected but this has not helped. Is there anything else I should try before I send it back?


Are they both on the same software versions?


----------



## narrod

rklindb said:


> Greetings - 1st post, but need expert advice. Following DTV's huge advertising blitz last week (10+pages in USA Today), I upgraded from a 10-250. We've had it for over a year, and have much access to HDTV on it, and also on OTA. Yesterday, DTV's crew installed a 5 LNB dish and the HR21-700. The box is nice looking, the menu's are an improvement (faster response), etc. The problem is the picture quality. Remember, all I did was remove the 10-250 and replace it with the 21-700. All cables, the TV (Sony LCD Projection) are the same. Here is what we notice. When watching a live show, the picture is similar to that of the 10-250. Neither is as good as the OTA broadcast. However, we watched a recording of "Chuck" on NBC last night. It is in HD of course, the the recorded picture is bad. Anything in the program that was white (shirts), or highlighted by sun or lights was completly washed out. It was "clipped" completely. The backgrounds, when dark, were pixelated and uneven. Granted that was only one sample, but my first review is not a good one. Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks.


There must be another explanation. There is no difference between recorded and live. It all goes to the harddrive before being displayed.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

narrod said:


> There must be another explanation. There is no difference between recorded and live. It all goes to the harddrive before being displayed.


No on an HR20/HR21

If you are truely watching it live, and not in the buffer at all... you are watching the feed... it is not like a TiVo where it goes to the hard drive first and then plays. (It is split internally).

Once you rewind and are in the buffer...then yes, that is true.

As to the issue with CHUCK having poor whites when you play it back..
Try to watch CHUCK live next week... and see if you see the same (bet you will)... as the content you see LIVE... is the EXACT content that is stored to the drive.


----------



## Sailorman

houskamp said:


> Are they both on the same software versions?


Yes they are on the same software version. Both units updated with a new version of software last night.

I rechecked the resume and it is still not working on one unit and working fine on the other unit, both units are HR-21-700.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Sailorman said:


> Yes they are on the same software version. Both units updated with a new version of software last night.
> 
> I rechecked the resume and it is still not working on one unit and working fine on the other unit, both units are HR-21-700.


ALL recordings the RESUME function is not working?

What software version are you on?


----------



## jheda

just to add, i have reported, and still do on occasion, have malfunction of the resume, although despite trying i cant make it repeatable...


----------



## wxman1969

I have a Linksys gaming adapter I use to connect up to XBOX live with my XBOX 360. I assume this same adapter will work for the HR21. But can I just run the ethernet cable from the HR21 to the gaming adapter and expect it to work or are there configuration settings that would need to be adjusted, either on my router or on the adapter?

Also, I noticed that there isn't a thread for the HR21 software discussion under the Directv Software Release Notes forum. Will one be added? It would be nice to quickly see what the latest version is and what changes there are from earlier versions.

Any word on when remote booking and some of the on demand features will be available with the HR21?

Thanks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Yes one will be added....
What software version do you have?

You can connect the Gameing Adapter to your HR21... and then your XBOX360 to your HR21 port #2


And no word on when OnDemand will be available for the HR21


----------



## say-what

wxman1969 said:


> I have a Linksys gaming adapter I use to connect up to XBOX live with my XBOX 360. I assume this same adapter will work for the HR21. But can I just run the ethernet cable from the HR21 to the gaming adapter and expect it to work or are there configuration settings that would need to be adjusted, either on my router or on the adapter?


Connect the adapter to the top port on the HR21 and then you can connect the XBox to the bottom port. You'll just need to go into the HR21 setup menu and run the network setup.



> Also, I noticed that there isn't a thread for the HR21 software discussion under the Directv Software Release Notes forum. Will one be added? It would be nice to quickly see what the latest version is and what changes there are from earlier versions.


I'm sure there will be a Software Release Notes thread for the HR21. For now, there is a thread in the CE forum for version 0x16D.



> Any word on when remote booking and some of the on demand features will be available with the HR21?
> 
> Thanks.


I'm hoping soon, but no word. We're waiting like everyone else.


----------



## wxman1969

Great info. Thanks. Directv brought out the HR21 to my house Tuesday, though I asked for the HR20 because I get several OTA stations that aren't available on sat. Immediately after the installer ran through the setup it downloaded version 0x16c, which apparently is the most recent version. I'll look forward to following the release notes as new versions are added.


----------



## Doug Brott

wxman1969 said:


> Great info. Thanks. Directv brought out the HR21 to my house Tuesday, though I asked for the HR20 because I get several OTA stations that aren't available on sat. Immediately after the installer ran through the setup it downloaded version 0x16c, which apparently is the most recent version. I'll look forward to following the release notes as new versions are added.


Is this the version that other HR21-700 folks are seeing?


----------



## wmj5

does anyone know if they will ever come out with a h21-200 with the antenna hookup, I would like to have a black one.


----------



## smd

My HR21 just updated today to 0x16d.


----------



## Jeremy W

wmj5 said:


> does anyone know if they will ever come out with a h21-200 with the antenna hookup, I would like to have a black one.


Nope, never. The *21 receivers will never have OTA.


----------



## Groundhog45

Walked into the nearest Best Buy this afternoon and they had four HR21-700 and four HR20-700. Not being phased out here. Choice is good. (Like the new box on the HR21)


----------



## KCCardsfan

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There will continue to be both the HR20 and HR21 models.
> 
> For those who don't want or need OTA, they'll go with the HR21 HD DVR.
> 
> For those who "need" or want OTA, they'll go with the HR20 HD DVR.
> 
> This is consistent with what they've done in the H21 and H20 HD receiver lines.


http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=106644

If my HR20 goes down & D* can't replace it with a OTA receiver it could be a deal breaker for me, my parents have DISH & the VIP622 and I would seriously consider switching. Not complaining or threatening, just thinking in print because I see no reason to go backwards in features, especially one I use daily.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Groundhog45 said:


> Walked into the nearest Best Buy this afternoon and they had four HR21-700 and four HR20-700. Not being phased out here. Choice is good. (Like the new box on the HR21)


Same here - 16 HR20's and 11 HR21's in stock at BB just yesterday.

This is what we keep trying to tell folks - some just don't want to listen I guess. 

As one who has both the HR21 and HR20 - I prefer the HR21 for all the reasons we've indicated in the First Look itself and supplimental posts. Again, there is a choice and everyone is covered with or without OTA.


----------



## jayerndl

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Again, there is a choice and everyone is covered with or without OTA.


Apparently not. If you read the thread linked a few posts above you will see that even D* supervisors and retention people will not or cannot give a customer what he ordered (a HR20 with OTA). That customer certainly didn't have a choice unless you consider having to go "find" and purchase a HR20 from a retailer. This is exactly why I thought the HR21 was a bad idea. I didn't (and still don't) have faith in D* that they will continue to offer the HR20. Very few people have ever had much success with specifying an exact brand/model of STB. D* gives you what they think is equivelent, which in this case they think the HR21 is equivelent to the HR20.

Jay


----------



## gully_foyle

Lot of posts...mostly about OTA, which can be summed up as: fine for someone else, but keep making the HR20.

But what else is there? The original review pointedly neglected software matters. 

Is there, someplace, a list of differences between, say HR20 x18a and HR10 x16d, or whatever? Or are there none? In particular:

Does the HR21 do a better job of reformatting 16:9 HD (squeeze, stretch)?
Does it do scaling better?
Is native mode quicker and more reliable?
Are channel changes quicker?
Does the hardware's decoding bandwidth reduce the chances of dropouts?
Are there any UI differences? Are they better?

Or is just the same thing, without OTA?


----------



## vandergraff

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes one will be added....
> What software version do you have?
> 
> You can connect the Gameing Adapter to your HR21... and then your XBOX360 to your HR21 port #2
> 
> And no word on when OnDemand will be available for the HR21


Will this also work with the two Ethernet Ports on the HR20-100?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

vandergraff said:


> Will this also work with the two Ethernet Ports on the HR20-100?


No, the 2nd port on the HR20-100 is not active.

The HR21-700 has a two port network switch built in.


----------



## wxman1969

Doug Brott said:


> Is this the version that other HR21-700 folks are seeing?


Actually, my unit just upgraded to 0x16d Wed night. But I experienced my first technical glitch Thur night. Perhaps this has been documented or maybe it was just a fluke, but I was watching a recorded program and then paused it. After a minute of being paused I decided to go back to watching the baseball game so I hit the PREV button. It took me back to the game, but a few seconds later the screen froze but the audio continued. I tried several things to get it back going but nothing worked. The only thing I could do was hit the reset button. When it came back up the recorded program I was watching and had paused had been deleted from my playlist. Everything else was back to normal. Is this a known problem or just a fluke?


----------



## houskamp

kcmurphy88 said:


> Lot of posts...mostly about OTA, which can be summed up as: fine for someone else, but keep making the HR20.
> 
> But what else is there? The original review pointedly neglected software matters.
> 
> Is there, someplace, a list of differences between, say HR20 x18a and HR10 x16d, or whatever? Or are there none? In particular:
> 
> Does the HR21 do a better job of reformatting 16:9 HD (squeeze, stretch)?
> Does it do scaling better?
> Is native mode quicker and more reliable?
> Are channel changes quicker?
> Does the hardware's decoding bandwidth reduce the chances of dropouts?
> Are there any UI differences? Are they better?
> 
> Or is just the same thing, without OTA?


I don't see any real difference in mine...


----------



## Doug Brott

BMoreRavens said:


> No, the 2nd port on the HR20-100 is not active.
> 
> The HR21-700 has a two port network switch built in.


 .. It's actually a 5-port switch, but only the two external and one internal ports are available for use .. there's no connector available for the other ports on the broadcom chip . And of course, one of the external ports is an uplink while the other is a normal LAN port.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Doug Brott said:


> .. It's actually a 5-port switch, but only the two external and one internal ports are available for use .. there's no connector available for the other ports on the broadcom chip . And of course, one of the external ports is an uplink while the other is a normal LAN port.


Thanks for the correction Doug.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

kcmurphy88 said:


> But what else is there? The original review pointedly neglected software matters.
> 
> Is there, someplace, a list of differences between, say HR20 x18a and HR10 x16d, or whatever? Or are there none? In particular:


The choice not to discuss original firmware was intentional, not an oversight for several reasons:

1) The base firmware that came with the unit was a base test version that had no basis for comparison to the HR20 anyway.

2) We were aware there would be a number of interim updates

3) Updates would be done over time, and any comparison would be inappropriate and pretty meaningless until it matured.

4) The intent is to marry up the firmware in the near future to HR20-comparible features, so there will be no significant differences anyway.

Based on all this - comparing apples to refrigerators made no sense, and so the firmware comparison was intentionally not done.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 4) The intent is to marry up the firmware in the near future to HR20-comparible features, so there will be no significant differences anyway.


I think that this is the key point .. Ultimately, the two receiver types (HR21/HR20) will begin to look very much similar and the version numbers will very likely start to mean the same thing in terms of software features.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Same here - 16 HR20's and 11 HR21's in stock at BB just yesterday.
> 
> This is what we keep trying to tell folks - some just don't want to listen I guess.


Unless those are just back stocks and once they're gone, they're gone.

I think if you want an HR20 you better get them now before they're gone.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

theratpatrol said:


> Unless those are just back stocks and once they're gone, they're gone.
> 
> I think if you want an HR20 you better get them now before they're gone.


Just got back from Circuit City and Best Buy, as well as Costco (for other things). I was curious where things sat for inventories.

Between the 3 locations, there were 67 HR21-700's, 16 HR20-700's, and 42 HR20-100's. Not even close to any shortages here. The Manager at BB told me "he can get all the HR20's" he wants from their warehouse.


----------



## Dr. Booda

The installer that replaced my HR20-100 with a HR21-700 today stated that it was his first activation for the new unit, so there must be many HR20's still out there.


----------



## jtn

Dr. Booda said:


> The installer that replaced my HR20-100 with a HR21-700 today stated that it was his first activation for the new unit, so there must be many HR20's still out there.


Have they stopped manufacturing HR20-700S IRD's?


----------



## jesseasi

To save time in trying to read through 23 pages of posts. Can anyone tell me if the new HR21 buffers two channels at the same time?

We have a his and hers DVR setup here. HR10-250 for the wife and HR-20 for me. My wife loves switching between two tunners to watch tv. The HR-20 did not offer this so she has refused to switch hers out.

Anyone know if the HR21 does this?

I am sorry if this has been covered before - I read through the 1st 4 pages of posts and gave up.

Thanks!


----------



## shocky

jesseasi said:


> To save time in trying to read through 23 pages of posts. Can anyone tell me if the new HR21 buffers two channels at the same time?


Simple answer: No. No dual buffers for live tv.. You must record one of the shows to get the dual live buffer effect to work.


----------



## Doug Brott

shocky said:


> Simple answer: No. No dual buffers for live tv.. You must record one of the shows to get the dual live buffer effect to work.


Correct .. Other than the lack of OTA, the HR21 is virtually identical to the HR20. The insides of the HR21 use a newer chipset, but that seems to be a cost saving measure more than for performance enhancement.


----------



## NetRaider

BMoreRavens said:


> No, the 2nd port on the HR20-100 is not active.
> 
> The HR21-700 has a two port network switch built in.


Gigabit or 100Mb switch?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

NetRaider said:


> Gigabit or 100Mb switch?


10/100


----------



## cforrest

I went to my local BB, they had no HR21s on the shelf. All I saw were HR20-700s! I will look next weekend at other BB locations and CC as well. Saw a lot of H21s though.


----------



## Techie

Ok,I spoiled myself and,yes I am the proud owner of this amazing HR21. As of 10-28-07 what I know the only thing I need to hook up is the ethernet yet. The set up was flawless to do. The fast forward seems to be somewhat faster than the HR20-700. The owners manual is about the same as the HR20 but does not say anything about DOD. I have the amazing capability to go to the guide and have a full live picture behind it! The guide is clear. The info is translucent! The BBC's are black,look cool! The whole unit is faster to the response of the remote, flawless to multiple commands at once. I will be hooking it up to a network this week and go from there. D* You out did my expectations this time. This is a joy to control and look at. I eagerly await what is yet to happen (such as remotely control the unit from your cell phone,so I understand,in testing as this is posted). I highly recommend this reciever if you don't need a OTA. Anything else I find I will post of interest.


----------



## NetRaider

Thanks. Guess I still need my Gb switch in the AV cabinet.


----------



## gundyrat

I am sure this has been discussed somewhere here? D* installed a HR21-700 in black on Sunday I have a PS3 connected wirelessly to my access point.
What do I need to get to connect the HR21 to my wireless network I have a Linksys WRT54G3G-ST access point.


----------



## houskamp

gundyrat said:


> I am sure this has been discussed somewhere here? D* installed a HR21-700 in black on Sunday I have a PS3 connected wirelessly to my access point.
> What do I need to get to connect the HR21 to my wireless network I have a Linksys WRT54G3G-ST access point.


lots of info here: http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=115
just setup the hr21 to the linksys and plug the ps3 into the botton port on hr21..


----------



## gundyrat

last item Due to the way this unit connect to my Tv opposed to my old non Hd unit.

I have to do some creative cabling in order to set it up thru the A/v unit and also just to the Tv so both routes are HD for wife use plus feeding a Tv and projector.

I already have a HDMI splitter in use running from my PS3 to the 2 display devices and a component splitter branched off of the A/V unit. I'm wondering if I could use a auto sensing HDMI switch and combine it with the PS3.

So basicly I would be going from a 2 in / 1 out switch to a 1 in/ 2 out splitter to feed HD to both display devices via the PS3 and HR21-700.

The installer thought that if a component and HDMi cable both are connected to the HR21-700 the unit defaults to HDMI is this true?

I already have a RF converter in use to run a signal to the other 2 non HD units in the house.


----------



## say-what

gundyrat said:


> The installer thought that if a component and HDMi cable both are connected to the HR21-700 the unit defaults to HDMI is this true?


Not true. All outputs are active and can be used at the same time. Only restriction is that they all output the same signal, so you can't watch different channels on each output.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

say-what said:


> Not true. All outputs are active and can be used at the same time. Only restriction is that they all output the same signal, so you can't watch different channels on each output.


Again, this is the same as it is in the HR20 series.


----------



## Kipster46

NOLAmitch said:


> Thanks for the great write up on the new HR21.
> 
> This may not be the correct forum, but this does relate to the HR21. I waiting at home as I type this message for the delivery and installation of my new HR2? receiver. I've had a HR10-250 for since they first came out, and I've upgrade it to a 750GB hard-disk, and enabled many blocked features... but I digress.
> 
> My question is, do I know which receive I will get? I'm hoping for an HR20, as I have an OTA antenna installed which I used with the HR10-250. On top of that, there are quite a few digital / HD local channels which are available OTA, but not from D*TV. It seems that perhaps the HR21 has not be released yet, but will be released later this month. If that is the case, that's a good thing in my book.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mitch


I have an HR21 on my truck to be installed tomorrow for a customer upgrade. So, they are now available


----------



## gundyrat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Again, this is the same as it is in the HR20 series.


Well I had a Sony SAT-A2 before this one so I would'nt have known
thanks though


----------



## sailermon

I am switching from Ultimate TV, which has the 30-second skip forward, to HR20/21. Can someone tell me what the difference is between skip and slip?

Thanks.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

sailermon said:


> I am switching from Ultimate TV, which has the 30-second skip forward, to HR20/21. Can someone tell me what the difference is between skip and slip?
> 
> Thanks.


Welcome to DBSTalk

Skip jumps 30 seconds forward and you see no video.

Slip fast fowards 30 seconds fast but you catch still see video and stop it early if you want/need to.


----------



## sat4r

The D installer just left my house.I swaped out my H20-100 for a HR21-700. a very cool looking unit. He told me they were out of HD-DVRS until monday and they got 6 pallets of HR21-700s. He said that was all they were installing now.


----------



## sat4r

Now I have a question on this new HR21-700. When i run system test on this unit it shows LNB OUTPUT FAILED. All the channels seem to be coming in but why is this? Any ideas Thanks AL


----------



## say-what

sat4r said:


> Now I have a question on this new HR21-700. When i run system test on this unit it shows LNB OUTPUT FAILED. All the channels seem to be coming in but why is this? Any ideas Thanks AL


Don't worry about it. As long as you're getting all the channels you should, it's not an issue. I have 1 HR20 that will regularly fail the lnb output test and my HR21 will periodically fail the test. Usually, if you exit after a failed test, then tune to 2 sd channels then go back to retest, you can trigger a pass, not always, but that's been my experience. In short, the lnb test is not critical.


----------



## sat4r

say-what said:


> Don't worry about it. As long as you're getting all the channels you should, it's not an issue. I have 1 HR20 that will regularly fail the lnb output test and my HR21 will periodically fail the test. Usually, if you exit after a failed test, then tune to 2 sd channels then go back to retest, you can trigger a pass, not always, but that's been my experience. In short, the lnb test is not critical.


Thanks AL


----------



## Jeremy W

sat4r said:


> Now I have a question on this new HR21-700. When i run system test on this unit it shows LNB OUTPUT FAILED. All the channels seem to be coming in but why is this? Any ideas Thanks AL


What software version are you running? It should be 0x16D, but you may still be on the 0x168 version that it shipped with.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> What software version are you running? It should be 0x16D, but you may still be on the 0x168 version that it shipped with.


press and hold the INFO button and you'll be able to see what version you are running .. among other things.


----------



## 311Man

I have had the HR21 for 9 hours and this unit is junk. Lets hope the issues I am having are isolated to this receiver.

"Active" feature does not function. Page comes up showing "Loading..." after 10-15 seconds screen flickers twice and returns to previous viewed channel.

When you "pause" live television the screen does "pause" however you can never continue viewing show. No buttons function other than changing channel and after several seconds live tv returns.

Changing channels are painfully slow.

Thankfully D* is sending out an HR20 via FEDEX hopefully that unit will be better.


----------



## sat4r

Jeremy W said:


> What software version are you running? It should be 0x16D, but you may still be on the 0x168 version that it shipped with.


Hi Jeremy The software version is 0X18a upgraded 9/14 Now I will have to wait for VOD. I connected to the internet instantly and have MEDIA SHARE but no VOD. I tried the IWANTMYVOD then pressing MENU INFO button but nothing appeared. Thanks AL


----------



## Jeremy W

sat4r said:


> Hi Jeremy The software version is 0X18a upgraded 9/14 Now I will have to wait for VOD. I connected to the internet instantly and have MEDIA SHARE but no VOD. I tried the IWANTMYVOD then pressing MENU INFO button but nothing appeared. Thanks AL


You're not supposed to have VOD, and you're also not supposed to have that software. You need to force a download.


----------



## sat4r

Jeremy W said:


> You're not supposed to have VOD, and you're also not supposed to have that software. You need to force a download.


Thanks At this time the unit is downloading 016D


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sat4r said:


> Thanks At this time the unit is downloading 016D


that is the most current firmware version - 16D.


----------



## sat4r

hdtvfan0001 said:


> that is the most current firmware version - 16D.


Thanks AL


----------



## sat4r

Thanks for all your help , the unit is working great and all the issues I had have been corrected. AL


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Please note that the firmware continues to mature.

The HR21 is a fine unit indeed, and we'll all continue to see improvements and even more enhancements as these updates roll out over time.


----------



## sailermon

gundyrat said:


> last item Due to the way this unit connect to my Tv opposed to my old non Hd unit.
> 
> I have to do some creative cabling in order to set it up thru the A/v unit and also just to the Tv so both routes are HD for wife use plus feeding a Tv and projector.
> 
> I already have a HDMI splitter in use running from my PS3 to the 2 display devices and a component splitter branched off of the A/V unit. I'm wondering if I could use a auto sensing HDMI switch and combine it with the PS3.
> 
> So basicly I would be going from a 2 in / 1 out switch to a 1 in/ 2 out splitter to feed HD to both display devices via the PS3 and HR21-700.
> 
> The installer thought that if a component and HDMi cable both are connected to the HR21-700 the unit defaults to HDMI is this true?
> 
> I already have a RF converter in use to run a signal to the other 2 non HD units in the house.


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why connect HR20/HR21 to TV with HDMI if components will deliver the highest resolution you can get (1080i) anyway?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sailermon said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why connect HR20/HR21 to TV with HDMI if components will deliver the highest resolution you can get (1080i) anyway?


Not a stupid question.

HDMI is the most common and preferred method of connections to 1080i or higher resolution displays for several reasons. That said, component is also a good choice, as the quality of the images is very very near HDMI's data transmission.

There are some differences in how each type of connection handles standard resolution (not HD) channel images, but again, it also depends on the display's ability to process the signal in either setup.

Alot has to do with the device itself, and how it handles 1080i imagery, as well as what kinds and numbers of connections are available.

You really can't go wrong either way overall....HDMI, of course also can reduce the # of cables by one, but that benefit has not really been the main one driving the market anyway.


----------



## houskamp

sailermon said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why connect HR20/HR21 to TV with HDMI if components will deliver the highest resolution you can get (1080i) anyway?


easy.. 1 cable... so much cleaner, and pic quality is the same..


----------



## sailermon

houskamp said:


> easy.. 1 cable... so much cleaner, and pic quality is the same..


Well, it's not one cable when you are not using the inferior TV speakers and need to get audio to the receiver and you have an older one that does not have HDMI input.
This requires optical audio out from the HR21 to the receiver and the DVD recorder.


----------



## 2rivers

Just got my HR21 installed today, replacing a Series II DirecTivo, my what a change! Downloaded the new firmware as soon as set up.

Now, can someone please tell me (or point me to) about the networking side of it. I mean, what is available so far? Pictures/MP3's is what I have seen, perhaps through WMP11; is that right? So, nothing else needed now on the 21 for this, like you must have VIIV? 

And VOD is coming soon; they are in beta now? 

Thanks


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Well....I have a bad feeling that the HR20's are on their way out (well ok maybe). 

I was at Costco 2 weeks ago and they didn't have any HR20's left. I was in there today and they had a pallet of brand new HR21's. I talked the guy that works at the D* kios and he didn't know that they took the OTA tuners out, and was pretty shocked about it, but was very grateful for my knowledgeable information about it......all thanks to this website of course. 

So, as I've said before, if you see an HR20 and want another one, I suggest you get them now, because you never know, they might be gone later.


----------



## Rich

I think El Hombre is right about the replacement HR20s. The last 6 HR20s I have received have all been 100s. I'm getting another replacement Monday and I'd be shocked if it wasn't a 100. And equally shocked if it works correctly.

I would love to see a 21 show up. If this one doesn't work, I think I'll call the magic number and see if my frustration and anger will earn me a free 21.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Inventories change locally, regionally, and nationally. One area might have a surplus, another a shortfall in hardware. This same thing happened when the HR20-700 (and eventually the HR20-100) DVR's first came out.
> 
> Fact is, demand for HD DVR's at D*TV is waaaaaaaay up. There have been some lags from manufacturing to certain areas trying to keep up with demand.


----------



## Rich

I gotta ask. If you got one coax thru why not two? What possible condition could stop you?



dressig said:


> Great intro to HR21-700; thanks guys.
> Question about potential difference with HR20-700 -- Because of access issues with my house, installers were only able to use one line from A-9 dish to input box --which means I only have one line into my HR20 DVR. I cannot record and watch two different channels at the same time.
> 
> Your introduction states at one point as follows: "If setting up with an SWM unit, the coax cable is connected via into Satellite "In" 1 (labeled "SWM 2" on the
> back panel). The one cable will take the place of two runs coming from the
> dish. Note: The HR21 will use 2 of the available channels from the SWM device
> (either a total of 5 channels or 8 channels available)."
> 
> Does this mean I could watch one channel and record another with just input from the dish?
> 
> If not, does anyone have any ideas to solve my problem? Thanks
> 
> Although a lot of what you guys discuss is over my head, what I can make out has been extremely interesting and valuable. Thanks.
> 
> Sony KDL40V2500
> HR20-700 HDMI


----------



## Rich

sailermon said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why connect HR20/HR21 to TV with HDMI if components will deliver the highest resolution you can get (1080i) anyway?


I can't see any difference between HDMI and component on my three Panny plasmas or my Hi Def tube set. I never saw any difference between S-Video cables and the composite wires either.

I did buy a 37" Vizio and the picture in SD was unwatchable. The plasmas and the CRT have really good SD and great HD. The Vizio's HD was acceptable. And it made a great computer monitor, but I took it back the next day because of the SD picture quality.

The one thing that I have noticed is that you can see the difference in PQ depending on the "contrast ratio". I purchased a DCL 19" LED monitor with a CR of 1000:1 for my wife's computer and liked it so much I went to Costco's website and purchased what I thought was the identical model. When it arrived, it looked exactly like hers and I quickly hooked it up and was immediately disappointed by the PQ. Looked in the manual and found out that I had purchased the 700:1 CR model. Returned it for the 1000:1 and got the same PQ as the wife's did. Contrast Ratio (I have no clear idea what that means) is apparently not something to be ignored.

That Vizio had a low CR, while the Panny's are all 10,000:1 and the CRT doesn't list CR in it's specs. I do know that the largest (60") Vizio has a 7000:1 and is next to a 58" Panny 10,000:1 in my favorite store, hooked up to the same source. The difference in PQ in Hi Def is noticeable.


----------



## Rich

My Costco is still selling the 20s. If this replacement ordeal doesn't improve soon I'll buy a 21 on line. Wonder how long you have to activate the units after purchase?



theratpatrol said:


> Well....I have a bad feeling that the HR20's are on their way out (well ok maybe).
> 
> I was at Costco 2 weeks ago and they didn't have any HR20's left. I was in there today and they had a pallet of brand new HR21's. I talked the guy that works at the D* kios and he didn't know that they took the OTA tuners out, and was pretty shocked about it, but was very grateful for my knowledgeable information about it......all thanks to this website of course.
> 
> So, as I've said before, if you see an HR20 and want another one, I suggest you get them now, because you never know, they might be gone later.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

theratpatrol said:


> Well....I have a bad feeling that the HR20's are on their way out (well ok maybe).


Keep in mind there is an HR20-700 and HR20-100. One may be phased out (the -700?), but so far, there is absolutely no reason to believe both will be gone.

As stated in other threads, D*TV has both in stock and is still installing them both, and the -100 model is confirmed as still being manufactured per Earl.

There is also an equal possibility that if and when the HR20 series is sunset, a new OTA-supported model could be released.


----------



## petej88

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Why would I have any _anger _at 1080p - it never did anything to me?
> 
> Perhaps I can enhance my previous statement to say that that there are no broadcast media market-driven reasons for 1080p at this time. You may find it interesting that there are countless pieces all over the Web coming to this very same conclusion.
> 
> If you have a personal desire or need, this observation does not apply.
> 
> :backtotop


1080P is very useful for "HD DVD", "BD", and 1080P PC connections. And if you have a receiver that can up convert to 1080P, it might be uesful if the receiver does it better than your tv.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

petej88 said:


> 1080P is very useful for "HD DVD", "BD", and 1080P PC connections. And if you have a receiver that can up convert to 1080P, it might be uesful if the receiver does it better than your tv.


All true.

As someone one who also enjoys his HD DVD...I couldn't agree more that the imagery is nothing shy of spectacular. Unfortunately, despite these exceptions - the HD content broadcast world is still years away in adoption of 1080p.

The HR21-700 does an impressive job with 1080i imagery on a corresponding HD display.


----------



## petej88

hdtvfan0001 said:


> All true.
> 
> The HR21-700 does an impressive job with 1080i imagery on a corresponding HD display.


So, can the HR21 produce a cleaner image from mpeg4 or anything that improves on the picture quality over the HR20? Just curious. It sounds like the disk size is the same as the HR20-100 and that the HR21 has better cooling which is an important consideration.


----------



## say-what

petej88 said:


> So, can the HR21 produce a cleaner image from mpeg4 or anything that improves on the picture quality over the HR20? Just curious. It sounds like the disk size is the same as the HR20-100 and that the HR21 has better cooling which is an important consideration.


Even though the HR21 uses newer processors, I can't really see any difference in PQ - it looks great to my naked eye.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

say-what said:


> Even though the HR21 uses newer processors, I can't really see any difference in PQ - it looks great to my naked eye.


Pretty much the same...although I have seen complete stability in the MPEG4 stations with the HR21 and its newer processors. The 2 HR20's I have have been pretty solid for some time with firmware updates months ago as well.

As far as PQ - both are very good.


----------



## RunnerFL

say-what said:


> Even though the HR21 uses newer processors, I can't really see any difference in PQ - it looks great to my naked eye.


I wouldn't say there's a whole lot of difference in the PQ itself, however I see far less dropouts on the HR21 than the HR20 and I've watched them side by side by brining my TV out of the bedroom and setting it up in the living room.


----------



## gundyrat

sailermon said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why connect HR20/HR21 to TV with HDMI if components will deliver the highest resolution you can get (1080i) anyway?


My situation is I also have an older AVR P.E.VSX-49TX component up conversion and 7 digital Audio inputs.
so why use the HDMI at all?

Couple of reasons
1. need to make operation as simple as possible for the wife.
She just uses the TV and doesn't care to much about sound quality or picture quality, HDMI solves that problem simple one cable connection.
2. My PS3 will only up convert standard DVD's over HDMI and my AVR has no HDMI inputs.
So for Audio out I use Toslink on both the HR21 and PS3.
Presently we do not seem to have any issues with HDCP with sat boxes who knows maybe down the road that will become an issue
VOD maybe?

Now I have a Component run and also a HDMI run back to the projector
The component is for everything else that is filtered through and up converted via the 49TX.

VHS, S-VHS, 5 disc carousel DVD player and a Laser disc player.

I really like my 49TX even though it lacks all the modern Codecs like True HD, HD plus and DTS Master audio and the lack of any HDMI inputs

however if anyone wants to buy me that new Pioneer Elite 7k VSX-SC-09
that would be a really sweet gesture


----------



## gundyrat

I will be hooking up a network link here this week what if any advantages will this give me for my HR21 and is ViiV an absolute necessity?


----------



## Jeremy W

gundyrat said:


> I will be hooking up a network link here this week what if any advantages will this give me for my HR21 and is ViiV an absolute necessity?


For right now, it will give you the Music & Photos option. ViiV is not necessary at all, WMP11 does a great job.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

theratpatrol said:


> Well....I have a bad feeling that the HR20's are on their way out (well ok maybe).
> 
> So, as I've said before, if you see an HR20 and want another one, I suggest you get them now, because you never know, they might be gone later.


Went to 2 Costcos and a Best Buy today, none of them had HR20's. The BB I went to didn't have any HD DVR's in stock, not even the HR21's. They did have stacks of H21's around though. I did a search online at BB.com and only 1 store in the entire area had them in stock. Although you can get them online.

So what you do you guys think, are the HR20's on their way out? I know, I know, many of you are saying that they're not, but from what I've been seeing I don't know anymore.


----------



## Rich

theratpatrol said:


> Went to 2 Costcos and a Best Buy today, none of them had HR20's. The BB I went to didn't have any HD DVR's in stock, not even the HR21's. They did have stacks of H21's around though. I did a search online at BB.com and only 1 store in the entire area had them in stock. Although you can get them online.
> 
> So what you do you guys think, are the HR20's on their way out? I know, I know, many of you are saying that they're not, but from what I've been seeing I don't know anymore.


I don't think you'll see the end of refurbed HR20s for quite a while. Retail is something else. I read months ago, I think it was in a Swanni report, that the HR20 would be selling for $99 by the Xmas season.

Meanwhile, if I keep reading posts about how much better the processors are in the HR21, I am going to try to force the PP into at least giving me a couple of 21s.


----------



## Jeremy W

rich584 said:


> Meanwhile, if I keep reading posts about how much better the processors are in the HR21, I am going to try to force the PP into at least giving me a couple of 21s.


The better processor in the HR21 doesn't translate into any kind of performance gain.


----------



## Rich

Jeremy W said:


> The better processor in the HR21 doesn't translate into any kind of performance gain.


I think I read that pixelation and green screens were less prevalent with the 21 because of the processors.


----------



## Jeremy W

rich584 said:


> I think I read that pixelation and green screens were less prevalent with the 21 because of the processors.


I don't get pixelation or green screens on my HR20 or my HR21, so I can't say anything either way.


----------



## Rich

Jeremy W said:


> I don't get pixelation or green screens on my HR20 or my HR21, so I can't say anything either way.


Been getting full green screens and some pix since the last NR. On all five HR20s.


----------



## Drew2k

theratpatrol said:


> So what you do you guys think, are the HR20's on their way out? I know, I know, many of you are saying that they're not, but from what I've been seeing I don't know anymore.


Only the HR20-700 is being discontinued. The HR20-100 will continue in productoin. Click for more info: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1275107#post1275107


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Drew2k said:


> Only the HR20-700 is being discontinued. The HR20-100 will continue in productoin. Click for more info: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1275107#post1275107


Thanks for the info.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Well...at least now we can put all that back and forth about OTA to rest - the H20-100 is alive and well and is still being manufactured so for those folks...life goes on.

As far as the HR21-700 - our pretty black units move forward...

All good news for everyone.


----------



## Rich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Well...at least now we can put all that back and forth about OTA to rest - the H20-100 is alive and well and is still being manufactured so for those folks...life goes on.
> 
> As far as the HR21-700 - our pretty black units move forward...
> 
> All good news for everyone.


I notice you don't have any 100s listed in your signature. Haven't been thru that nightmare yet?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rich584 said:


> I notice you don't have any 100s listed in your signature. Haven't been thru that nightmare yet?


Nope - I have 1 HR21-700 and 2 HR20-700's.

It was a privilege to be able to both test and then write about the HR21-700.

Despite that....I still also root for the Hundred Nation.


----------



## Rich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nope - I have 1 HR21-700 and 2 HR20-700's.
> 
> It was a privilege to be able to both test and then write about the HR21-700.
> 
> Despite that....I still also root for the Hundred Nation.


Did the 21 work with an eSATA? I hope you at least got the 21 free of charge.


----------



## Jeremy W

rich584 said:


> Did the 21 work with an eSATA? I hope you at least got the 21 free of charge.


It does, and he did.


----------



## Rich

Jeremy W said:


> It does, and he did.


So, why all the posts about people having problems with 21s and eSATAs?


----------



## Jeremy W

rich584 said:


> So, why all the posts about people having problems with 21s and eSATAs?


I didn't say it was perfect, I said it worked. There are still some problems to work out with it.


----------



## SirJW

Jermey, what eSATA do you have?


----------



## Jeremy W

SirJW said:


> Jermey, what eSATA do you have?


I don't have an eSATA.


----------



## SirJW

Jeremy W said:


> I didn't say it was perfect, I said it worked. There are still some problems to work out with it.


What eSATA are you referring too in this post?

BTW - sorry to everyone who is bored by this subject and this newbie (me) to DBS asking about it every where I can. I just want to set it up and be done w/ it. TenBox looks great but $1000 is out of my budget. I'm actually thinking of sending the HR-21 to Weaknees and have them crack it open to get the larger drive.


----------



## Doug Brott

I wish I could be more helpful, but eSATA is not something that I have endeavored to use.

Newbies are only new for a while .. after a bit of interaction, you too can become a seasoned vet .


----------



## ShiningBengal

SirJW said:


> What eSATA are you referring too in this post?
> 
> BTW - sorry to everyone who is bored by this subject and this newbie (me) to DBS asking about it every where I can. I just want to set it up and be done w/ it. TenBox looks great but $1000 is out of my budget. I'm actually thinking of sending the HR-21 to Weaknees and have them crack it open to get the larger drive.


You may want to reconsider that option. You do not own the HR21--it is leased to you. Sort of like customizing a leased car. If it crashes in the future, for instance, you may be out on a limb.


----------



## SirJW

Yea, I understand the lease thing that's why I'm considering a reputable company instead of doing it myself...Unless I can find the solution here...


----------



## ShiningBengal

SirJW said:


> Yea, I understand the lease thing that's why I'm considering a reputable company instead of doing it myself...Unless I can find the solution here...


That really isn't the core of the issue.

When an HR20 (or any other DirecTV leased unit) fails for any reason, it is exchanged for another unit, in most cases a factory refurbed unit. That means your unit will be opened up at a refurb center. If it is non-stock, it is quite likely that the unit will be rejected by them and and you will be back-charged an inflated price for your failure to return your unit in stock form.

Personally, I don't think that it is worth taking that risk--not only because it is against the terms of the lease that I signed, but just as importantly because I could lose a chunk of change for that mis-judgment.


----------



## shendley

The only real issue I've read about with esata and the HR21 concerns the Seagate Free Agent Pro . . . which is really a drag because it's probably the most popular esata drive for people on this board. I own one and it has worked flawlessly with the HR20. The only real sustained problems I've heard about (though haven't had myself) is with some people having esata cables that don't fit snuggly enough and have a habit of falling out from time to time.

Since I own a Seagate Free Agent Pro, I would love to see greater clarification about just what's happening here: is no one getting the HR21 to work with this esata drive (frankly, I haven't seen a single post from anyone reporting success here - of course, I could have missed something)? Occasionally you'll hear someone saying that the only problem is to set the Seagate to operate at 3 gigabytes per second rather than 1.5. But the information online says the Seagate FAP already operates at 3.0 and no one can say how you'd go about checking that and changing that on the hard drive itself.

So, I'm with you on this one. I've heard some information suggesting that a move from my 20 to a 21 might help me out on a couple of problems I've been having (heavy pixelation/picture and audio break up occasionally on mpeg4 stations and occasional to infrequent loss of reception of mpeg2 HD on one tuner). And the technicians who have been working on my problems from DTV have suggested that this is the next place to turn. But I think I'd just rather put up with these problems for a while longer than lose my esata hard drive.

Hopefully, we'll get more info as more people come to use the 21 with various and sundry esata drives including, hopefully (!) some people figuring out how to use the Seagate successfully with it.


SirJW said:


> What eSATA are you referring too in this post?
> 
> BTW - sorry to everyone who is bored by this subject and this newbie (me) to DBS asking about it every where I can. I just want to set it up and be done w/ it. TenBox looks great but $1000 is out of my budget. I'm actually thinking of sending the HR-21 to Weaknees and have them crack it open to get the larger drive.


----------



## Rich

SirJW said:


> Yea, I understand the lease thing that's why I'm considering a reputable company instead of doing it myself...Unless I can find the solution here...


You will save money by getting a hard drive from Weaknees and installing it yourself. No difference. If something fails and you have to return it, just put the original HD back in.

I think there must be a software problem with the eSATA functionality. Better to stick with the HR20 700 for eSATAs. At least we know the FAP works reliably with them. I can put up with a little pixelation or freeze-ups as long as I can use a reliable eSATA.


----------



## SirJW

Thanks for the input Rich and Shendley.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> I didn't say it was perfect, I said it worked. There are still some problems to work out with it.


That's probably the best way to summarize eSata on the HR21-700 at this point.

With more frequent firmware updates coming now, as well as the improvements that come along with them, we may have a better feel for the eSata stability in the near future.


----------



## P Smith

*eSATA *actually.


----------



## Doug Brott

P Smith said:


> *eSATA *actulally.


yes, but that's a technicality


----------



## Rich

P Smith said:


> *eSATA *actulally.


I don't want to start a running argument with you over grammar and spelling, but when you correct some one's usage of an acronym, and are correct, not using a spell checker and allowing "actually" to follow the word you are correcting to come out spelled "actulally" is bordering on ludicrous. I've seen you do this on several occasions. Google tool bar has a perfectly good spell checker that is only a click away.


----------



## Rich

Jeremy W said:


> I didn't say it was perfect, I said it worked. There are still some problems to work out with it.


A new car with four flat tires "works". I know the eSATA function is activated. I was wondering if you had any experience with any problems associated with it. I knew there were problems, what I was trying to find out was what specific problems there are.


----------



## leenanj

I had a HR21-700 installed and the new dish about 3 weeks ago.

I soon noticed that after recording about 4 hd movies along with the other stuff we normally record that I was already out of hard drive space.

I went to Newegg and purchased the Hitachi 1T Deskstar 7K1000 sata2 and the Kingwin eSata enclosure that came with a eSata to eSata cable.

I ran this setup external for a week and everything ran perfect.

I did not want it external so I took the same drive and installed in HR21 case.

All info was left intact on drive after installing internal and it has been working perfectly.

I have not had any problems or lockups with the HR21 before or after adding the larger hard drive.

Access to the hard drive in the HR21 is extremely easy.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

leenanj said:


> I did not want it external so I took the same drive and installed in HR21 case.
> 
> All info was left intact on drive after installing internal and it has been working perfectly.
> 
> I have not had any problems or lockups with the HR21 before or after adding the larger hard drive.
> 
> Access to the hard drive in the HR21 is extremely easy.


Congrats on your upgrade...glad to hear it worked out for you...however....are you aware of the impact to your warranty by opening up the unit?

The reason for the eSata option is to avoid invalidating equipment warranties by opening up their case. This has been discussed at length in another thread as well.


----------



## leenanj

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Congrats on your upgrade...glad to hear it worked out for you...however....are you aware of the impact to your warranty by opening up the unit?
> 
> The reason for the eSata option is to avoid invalidating equipment warranties by opening up their case. This has been discussed at length in another thread as well.


I'm aware also that this equipment will be obsolete in a couple years like my Tivo and they will want to charge me again for new upgrades. :nono2:

If they don't like it and don't want my monthly payment they know where to put there equipment. 

ps. I did have to take the Hitachi and connect it up to my computer and slow down the head seek and put it in quiet mode. The Hitachi came from the factory at maximum head seek speed and it was a little bit noisy.

After recording 12 HD movies along with all the other season passes it still has 83% free space, sweet! :grin:

Thanks


----------



## hdtvfan0001

leenanj said:


> I'm aware also that this equipment will be obsolete in a couple years like my Tivo and they will want to charge me again for new upgrades. :nono2:
> 
> Thanks


OK...just wanted to make sure you were aware, as they could, in theory, charge you the cost of a new unit when upgrading or replacing later.


----------



## Doug Brott

leenanj said:
 

> I'm aware also that this equipment will be obsolete in a couple years like my Tivo and they will want to charge me again for new upgrades. :nono2:
> 
> If they don't like it and don't want my monthly payment they know where to put there equipment.


There are always other choices, including but not limited to, going without TV altogether .. I know someone who has chosen this path, BTW. For me, DIRECTV has been the best choice.


----------



## leenanj

hdtvfan0001 said:


> OK...just wanted to make sure you were aware, as they could, in theory, charge you the cost of a new unit when upgrading or replacing later.


OK thanks, I was aware.

I would not expect anybody to open these things up if they did not know what they were doing. The external eSata port is a good idea.
That's if they ever officially support it before it becomes obsolete.

I have been with them for like about 10 years.

When its time to upgrade I doubt they would even want to pay the shipping to send back a boat anchor.

Thanks


----------



## ShiningBengal

leenanj said:


> OK thanks, I was aware.
> 
> I would not expect anybody to open these things up if they did not know what they were doing. The external eSata port is a good idea.
> That's if they ever officially support it before it becomes obsolete.
> 
> I have been with them for like about 10 years.
> 
> When its time to upgrade I doubt they would even want to pay the shipping to send back a boat anchor.
> 
> Thanks


What if the unit goes south on you? Your seal is broken, and the unit clearly states that breaking it voids the warranty.

If they come out to service it, or if you get an RMA to send it back, technically, you would have to pay for a replacement unit. It isn't a matter of upgrading. It's a matter of the probability of a hardware failure _before_ it's time to upgrade.

If it should happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world, of course, but it is certainly possible to hide an external drive.

That said, what is the benefit of putting _your_ expensive drive inside _DirecTV's_ box?

Just wondering.


----------



## leenanj

ShiningBengal said:


> What if the unit goes south on you? Your seal is broken, and the unit clearly states that breaking it voids the warranty.
> 
> If they come out to service it, or if you get an RMA to send it back, technically, you would have to pay for a replacement unit. It isn't a matter of upgrading. It's a matter of the probability of a hardware failure _before_ it's time to upgrade.
> 
> If it should happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world, of course, but it is certainly possible to hide an external drive.
> 
> That said, what is the benefit of putting _your_ expensive drive inside _DirecTV's_ box?
> 
> Just wondering.


This conversation has probably been had before.

Just looks cleaner without all the wires of the external.

I can throw the original drive back in in a minute.

The aluminum seal, well there easy to come buy if needed.
They fall off all the time don't they.

Do you think [email protected]# is actually going to send it to a lab to see if its been tampered with?

Like I said, its not for everyone to do, but I have been hacking my DVR's since my first Replay to increase storage. Just what I enjoy doing.

If I'm happy and [email protected]#$# is getting my money every month than they should be happy also.


----------



## Rich

leenanj said:


> This conversation has probably been had before.
> 
> Just looks cleaner without all the wires of the external.
> 
> I can throw the original drive back in in a minute.
> 
> The aluminum seal, well there easy to come buy if needed.
> They fall off all the time don't they.
> 
> Do you think [email protected]# is actually going to send it to a lab to see if its been tampered with?
> 
> Like I said, its not for everyone to do, but I have been hacking my DVR's since my first Replay to increase storage. Just what I enjoy doing.
> 
> If I'm happy and [email protected]#$# is getting my money every month than they should be happy also.


Can't disagree with anything you said. I've been putting larger HDs in DVRs for years too. Who is going to catch you? The same people who "refurbish" the returned HR20s? That's laughable. And if you want to do it that is the best reason in the world to do it.

All that said, I think the eSATA is so easy and cheap and reliable that I have four on four HR20s. Mucho recording flexibility. I can record eight programs at once.


----------



## sailor44

NOLAmitch said:


> Thanks for the great write up on the new HR21.
> 
> This may not be the correct forum, but this does relate to the HR21. I waiting at home as I type this message for the delivery and installation of my new HR2? receiver. I've had a HR10-250 for since they first came out, and I've upgrade it to a 750GB hard-disk, and enabled many blocked features... but I digress.
> 
> My question is, do I know which receive I will get? I'm hoping for an HR20, as I have an OTA antenna installed which I used with the HR10-250. On top of that, there are quite a few digital / HD local channels which are available OTA, but not from D*TV. It seems that perhaps the HR21 has not be released yet, but will be released later this month. If that is the case, that's a good thing in my book.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mitch


I too am awaiting delivery of a new dvr and I wonder if they are going to send the 21 or the 20. Like you, I have an OTA antenna and I need to keep it on line. If there is no OTA input, I will absolutely need to have the multi that routes the tv signal thru it! I have not been able to confirm that it is even ready for distribution yet, from D*. Has anyone??

Russell


----------



## Doug Brott

sailor44 said:


> I too am awaiting delivery of a new dvr and I wonder if they are going to send the 21 or the 20. Like you, I have an OTA antenna and I need to keep it on line. If there is no OTA input, I will absolutely need to have the multi that routes the tv signal thru it! I have not been able to confirm that it is even ready for distribution yet, from D*. Has anyone??
> 
> Russell


To my knowledge, there is no way to distribute an OTA signal through a multiswitch directly into an HR21. There needs to be a tuner of some sort and at present, none exists for the HR21. If you want to record OTA, then you will need an HR20. If you simply want to watch (not record) OTA, you can route the signal directly to your television (in most cases).


----------



## sailor44

Doug Brott said:


> To my knowledge, there is no way to distribute an OTA signal through a multiswitch directly into an HR21. There needs to be a tuner of some sort and at present, none exists for the HR21. If you want to record OTA, then you will need an HR20. If you simply want to watch (not record) OTA, you can route the signal directly to your television (in most cases).


That is indeed bad news! I have been recording ota on the dvr and want to continue to do so. Therefore if a 21 shows up tomorrow, I will just send it back. Also, it is a real pain to have to chnge tv inputs every time I want to watch local hd! Looks like they got the cart before the horse on this one, doesn't it?


----------



## ShiningBengal

sailor44 said:


> That is indeed bad news! I have been recording ota on the dvr and want to continue to do so. Therefore if a 21 shows up tomorrow, I will just send it back. Also, it is a real pain to have to chnge tv inputs every time I want to watch local hd! Looks like they got the cart before the horse on this one, doesn't it?


I think DirecTV is doing what it expects will be in its own best interests. Look at it this way: Even though they receive no revenue from OTA locals, they subsidize its reception through providing and supporting two ATSC tuners.

Although it isn't a huge amount, it is nonetheless a significant cost. They also must pay personnel to support this feature--again, with no increased revenue. They also must provide information for program guides for thousands of stations not included in the LIL stations available by satellite. Again, with no offsetting revenue.

You may wake up one day to find that DirecTV has made an announcement that they are disabling the feature in future software releases. They will at some point in the near future have LIL's serving 90% of the population, or alternatively charge a monthly fee for OTA, or disable recording of OTA programming and no program information.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit.


----------



## sailor44

ShiningBengal said:


> I think DirecTV is doing what it expects will be in its own best interests. Look at it this way: Even though they receive no revenue from OTA locals, they subsidize its reception through providing and supporting two ATSC tuners.
> 
> Although it isn't a huge amount, it is nonetheless a significant cost. They also must pay personnel to support this feature--again, with no increased revenue. They also must provide information for program guides for thousands of stations not included in the LIL stations available by satellite. Again, with no offsetting revenue.
> 
> You may wake up one day to find that DirecTV has made an announcement that they are disabling the feature in future software releases. They will at some point in the near future have LIL's serving 90% of the population, or alternatively charge a monthly fee for OTA, or disable recording of OTA programming and no program information.
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me one bit.


While you are correct that they get no DIRECT revenue from allowing tuning the OTA signals, but, without any ability to do this, cable becomes much more attractive. It is bad enough having to install an OTA antenna, having to change inputs every time I want to simply watch local stations is a real pain, and, not being able to record them is even worse! Why not just switch to cable, where all that is available? And, I can use TIVO too! Even now, I have been going thru hell just trying to get the dvr to pick up the newer HD channels, using splitters. I finally figured out that it just cannot be done, and now, I have to run an additional coax to the antenna. Such a pain! One more blow like that, (no OTA tuner, for example) and I just may go back to the dark side! Hence, loss of revenue. Multiply that by many folks who will feel just like I feel.


----------



## ShiningBengal

sailor44 said:


> While you are correct that they get no DIRECT revenue from allowing tuning the OTA signals, but, without any ability to do this, cable becomes much more attractive. It is bad enough having to install an OTA antenna, having to change inputs every time I want to simply watch local stations is a real pain, and, not being able to record them is even worse! Why not just switch to cable, where all that is available? And, I can use TIVO too! Even now, I have been going thru hell just trying to get the dvr to pick up the newer HD channels, using splitters. I finally figured out that it just cannot be done, and now, I have to run an additional coax to the antenna. Such a pain! One more blow like that, (no OTA tuner, for example) and I just may go back to the dark side! Hence, loss of revenue. Multiply that by many folks who will feel just like I feel.


"All that is available?" I don't believe cable provides anywhere near 100% of the digital locals in most markets. They don't even provide all the analog channels in my market.

When I first subscribed to DirecTV, they had no locals whatever, and the service still grew like crazy. When they did start adding locals, they had to add capacity with new satellites. This was the only trump card cable had.

Now that they no longer have this trump card, to compete, they dishonestly advertise "teaser" rates for 12 months, at which point the fees nearly double in many cases. Oh, yes. But you have no contract.

When you consider that these locals used a fraction of the bandwidth that HDTV demands, you come to the inescapable conclusion that repeating the number of HDTV channels is not feasible.

Cable has its own bandwidth issues, so I don't see them adding more HDTV channels with no offsetting fee increases. Most people would probably forego much of the local content (the CW, etc.) rather than pay additional fees.

I don't think cable, with its higher fee structure, and limited lineup is going to draw many people from DirecTV.

Right now, DirecTV is having a tough time keeping up with new installations because of the numbers defecting from cable. I have been waiting for weeks to get a replacement of a defective HR20--even an HR21 wasn't to be had. And after Christmas, with all the new HDTV's in peoples homes, there will be an absolute avalanche of new subscriptions.

DirecTV is growing at a healthy rate, while subscriptions to cable nationally are steady or falling. The fact that their latest receiver has no OTA capability pretty much points the direction they have chosen. Why would anyone think otherwise?

I'm not saying DirecTV is perfect, but their competition is generally a distasteful alternative.


----------



## ned23

ShiningBengal said:


> Look at it this way: Even though they receive no revenue from OTA locals, they subsidize its reception through providing and supporting two ATSC tuners.
> 
> Although it isn't a huge amount, it is nonetheless a significant cost. They also must pay personnel to support this feature--again, with no increased revenue. They also must provide information for program guides for thousands of stations not included in the LIL stations available by satellite. Again, with no offsetting revenue.


I repectfully disagree with that statement. I have been paying $9.99 a month for over two years for the ability to intergrate OTA with my dvr. Yes they did throw in a couple of unique stations like HDNet. So my three hundred dollars was increased revenue and I am sure it offset the price of the tuner and guide info, as it should be.

I think the biggest problem with this is they will have people start looking for alternatives to get the programing they want. I am seriously starting to look into a home theatre pc with tuners dvr functions downloading content from the internet with a hd player recorder.


----------



## ShiningBengal

ned23 said:


> I repectfully disagree with that statement. I have been paying $9.99 a month for over two years for the ability to intergrate OTA with my dvr. Yes they did throw in a couple of unique stations like HDNet. So my three hundred dollars was increased revenue and I am sure it offset the price of the tuner and guide info, as it should be.


I would say your argument is somewhat weakened by the fact that if you discontinued paying the $9.99/mo you claim was for OTA integration, you wouldn't lose the OTA integration!

You don't have to pay for the HD Package to get HD OTA integrated into your DVR. I did just that prior to DirecTV's launch of all of the new HD content this fall.

They didn't "throw in" a few HD channels. Your $9.99 covered them.


----------



## ned23

ShiningBengal said:


> I would say your argument is somewhat weakened by the fact that if you discontinued paying the $9.99/mo you claim was for OTA integration, you wouldn't lose the OTA integration!
> 
> You don't have to pay for the HD Package to get HD OTA integrated into your DVR. I did just that prior to DirecTV's launch of all of the new HD content this fall.
> 
> They didn't "throw in" a few HD channels. Your $9.99 covered them.


Wow, I did not know that! When I first hooked up my HR10-250 I was told that I would not receive any HD: locals, network or otherwise if I did not take the HD access pack. So I took it. Live and learn.


----------



## Rich

ShiningBengal said:


> Right now, DirecTV is having a tough time keeping up with new installations because of the numbers defecting from cable. I have been waiting for weeks to get a replacement of a defective HR20--even an HR21 wasn't to be had. And after Christmas, with all the new HDTV's in peoples homes, there will be an absolute avalanche of new subscriptions.


If you belong to the Protection Plan you get your replacement within 3 days. Yet another reason to belong to the PP. Does nobody read my "rants"? I just did one on the PP the other day.


----------



## ShiningBengal

rich584 said:


> If you belong to the Protection Plan you get your replacement within 3 days. Yet another reason to belong to the PP. Does nobody read my "rants"? I just did one on the PP the other day.


For $60 + tax per year, every year, no thanks. I've had DirecTV for 9 years and have never needed their service. I've saved close to $600.

Nickels and dimes add up. I only buy insurance for risks I can't afford to handle on my own. That philosophy has saved my literally thousands of dollars over the years. Never regretted not having these supposed protection plans in force.

Don't you read Consumer Reports? They state emphatically that you should always (not nearly always, ALWAYS) turn down service plans. 

I'd rather pocket the profits that DirecTV and Best Buy make on their service plans.


----------



## shendley

Gotta agree with most of this. I've only needed two service calls in six years of being with directv. One I talked them into giving me for free. The other I paid for. So I'm ahead quite a few dollars when compared to paying for the PP for that period of time. On the other hand, I've heard of others who have used the PP more than enough to make it pay for itself. As with all service plans, it's a bit of a crap shoot if you ask me whether or not to get it. But, as CR counsels, I tend to favor the probability of not really needing it and so don't tend to buy them myself.



ShiningBengal said:


> For $60 + tax per year, every year, no thanks. I've had DirecTV for 9 years and have never needed their service. I've saved close to $600.
> 
> Nickels and dimes add up. I only buy insurance for risks I can't afford to handle on my own. That philosophy has saved my literally thousands of dollars over the years. Never regretted not having these supposed protection plans in force.
> 
> Don't you read Consumer Reports? They state emphatically that you should always (not nearly always, ALWAYS) turn down service plans.
> 
> I'd rather pocket the profits that DirecTV and Best Buy make on their service plans.


----------



## Rich

shendley said:


> Gotta agree with most of this. I've only needed two service calls in six years of being with directv. One I talked them into giving me for free. The other I paid for. So I'm ahead quite a few dollars when compared to paying for the PP for that period of time. On the other hand, I've heard of others who have used the PP more than enough to make it pay for itself. As with all service plans, it's a bit of a crap shoot if you ask me whether or not to get it. But, as CR counsels, I tend to favor the probability of not really needing it and so don't tend to buy them myself.


It is a crapshoot, but one I am glad I took. I have a lot of equipment, very few spares and a lot of wiring and two dishes and several multiswitches. When something breaks down, it's either replaced or serviced within 3 days.

The great majority of service calls I've had have been since last November and were caused by problems with HR20s. But I've had unit after unit fail since I had Ultimate TV DVRs and progressed to TiVos. I don't know for sure how many HR20s I've had but I wouldn't be surprised if the total is not approaching 30 units. Out of those 25-30 units I have 5 that function properly. Do the math. 20 units x over $300 apiece looks like $6000 to me floating around in cyperspace at one time or another if you don't have the PP.

You also have to take into consideration the fact that I rarely see my satellite bill, my wife pays it and never complains. For free labor and free replacement equipment the PP makes sense to me. Not every extended warranty is foolish. I have used extended warranties on used cars and saved quite a bit of money.

In the previous post to yours I was asked if I read Consumer Reports and agreed with their opinion of extended warranties. Yes I do. I don't trust every opinion they publish. In the early 70s they were dead wrong about disc brakes.


----------



## ShiningBengal

rich584 said:


> It is a crapshoot, but one I am glad I took. I have a lot of equipment, very few spares and a lot of wiring and two dishes and several multiswitches. When something breaks down, it's either replaced or serviced within 3 days.
> 
> The great majority of service calls I've had have been since last November and were caused by problems with HR20s. But I've had unit after unit fail since I had Ultimate TV DVRs and progressed to TiVos. I don't know for sure how many HR20s I've had but I wouldn't be surprised if the total is not approaching 30 units. Out of those 25-30 units I have 5 that function properly. Do the math. 20 units x over $300 apiece looks like $6000 to me floating around in cyperspace at one time or another if you don't have the PP.
> 
> You also have to take into consideration the fact that I rarely see my satellite bill, my wife pays it and never complains. For free labor and free replacement equipment the PP makes sense to me. Not every extended warranty is foolish. I have used extended warranties on used cars and saved quite a bit of money.
> 
> In the previous post to yours I was asked if I read Consumer Reports and agreed with their opinion of extended warranties. Yes I do. I don't trust every opinion they publish. In the early 70s they were dead wrong about disc brakes.


It isn't only Consumer Reports who counsels consumers to eschew service plans. Virtually all consumer advice offered by knowledgeable people (those who like myself can run the numbers) state the same thing.

Extended warranties, or service plans if you like, are not sold to enable the sellers to reduce their profits. They are extremely profitable, at the total expense of the consumer. They are for the seller's benefit, not the consumer's.

If a product requires an extended warranty, then you probably ought not to buy it.

In the early 70's, who knows, maybe CR was correct about disk brakes. One thing that you can say about CR--they don't accept advertisements. That doesn't mean they are infallible, but it does mean that their advice (unlike the sellers of these plans) is not tainted by a conflict of interest.


----------



## turls

RobertE said:


> Why?
> 
> If you want/need OTA then the HR20 is for you.
> 
> If you don't want/need OTA then the HR21 is for you.
> 
> So whats wrong with choice?


Ok, I'm late to the party and I don't know when if I will get through this whole thread.

But to me, this whole attitude is pretty nieve.

What about 4-5 years from now, numerous models down the road?

Maybe they will still provide the HR20, but it will be behind on everything.

I don't see any reason to think ANY new model at this point will contain ATSC.

So this argument holds little water with me. Unless somebody can give me reason to believe new models coming up will have ATSC again.

*Anytime you read on here that people don't need ATSC, remember that you are completely at the mercy of the individual stations and their negotiation status with DirecTV on actually getting these stations (not to mention missing out on whatever subchannels DirecTV either doesn't bother to carry or doesn't want to pay to carry). And these negotiations are not "one and done" but will come up every once in a while--and at that point you can lose your stations completely if there is an impasse.* (bolding added because in this thread where everything was "covered 1000 times", this wasn't mentioned once! rain fade is temporary, this can go on for weeks/months if this affects you--you may think you are safe now, but wait until you can't watch the Super Bowl some year)

EDIT: I'm a little further through this thread and some of the rhetoric here is amazing. The owner of this board saying: "With the current HD push, most if not all locals will be via satellite at some point in the future making OTA obsolete." I get stations from 3 DMA's with antenna and I'm not unique. I'll never get more than one DMA from DirecTV will I? With all due respect, the DirecTV cool-aid flows thick here.

EDIT: Sorry hdtvfan0001 (and others), but the other thread that was made for OTA discussion was already closed by the time I knew about this. Not everybody is on this board all the time, believe it or not. I only found out about this new limitation in new hardware because I talked to a high-end installer that had a customer very upset over an upgrade install where he lost his OTA with a H21.


----------



## Jeremy W

turls said:


> I don't see any reason to think ANY new model at this point will contain ATSC.


They probably won't. However, DirecTV is working on an external OTA solution, so that people who want/need it can have it.


----------



## turls

Jeremy W said:


> They probably won't. However, DirecTV is working on an external OTA solution, so that people who want/need it can have it.


Ok, a hack/niche solution is better than nothing, but I'm not sure I'm going to trust it to be as trouble free as an integrated solution. This is a slippery slope. I am obviously a little behind and although you probably all knew about this new development, I found out about this after I started reading this thread and commenting in it. Is doesn't really change much though.


----------



## Jeremy W

turls said:


> This is a slippery slope.


No, it's really not.


----------



## turls

Jeremy W said:


> No, it's really not.


Well, its vaporware (AFAIK) at this point, so the fact they are working on it is irrelevant anyway. We'll have to see how well it works, but before that it has to come out.


----------



## Rich

Do what you want to do, I don't feel like arguing. Don't assume that because I disagree with you in a small way, that I'm a fool. I read all that you've written about and agree with you for the most part. Go your way and I'll go mine. CR is wrong about many things, just because you have empiracal data to prove a point, still doesn't prove the point is correct.

Do you buy anything at CC or BB? To me, that is the mark of a fool.



ShiningBengal said:


> It isn't only Consumer Reports who counsels consumers to eschew service plans. Virtually all consumer advice offered by knowledgeable people (those who like myself can run the numbers) state the same thing.
> 
> Extended warranties, or service plans if you like, are not sold to enable the sellers to reduce their profits. They are extremely profitable, at the total expense of the consumer. They are for the seller's benefit, not the consumer's.
> 
> If a product requires an extended warranty, then you probably ought not to buy it.
> 
> In the early 70's, who knows, maybe CR was correct about disk brakes. One thing that you can say about CR--they don't accept advertisements. That doesn't mean they are infallible, but it does mean that their advice (unlike the sellers of these plans) is not tainted by a conflict of interest.


----------



## Rich

ShiningBengal said:


> those who like myself can run the numbers


Been my experience in life that those who are as full of themselves as you are, are full of fecal matter.


----------



## Rich

ShiningBengal said:


> Extended warranties, or service plans if you like, are not sold to enable the sellers to reduce their profits. They are extremely profitable, at the total expense of the consumer. They are for the seller's benefit, not the consumer's.


My God, an epiphany! Or is it just common knowledge regurgitated by someone wanting to sound intelligent?


----------



## Rich

ShiningBengal said:


> If a product requires an extended warranty, then you probably ought not to buy it.


I know of no product that REQUIRES an extended warranty, but buy a year old Caddie and don't get an extended warranty and keep the car for 6 years and you'll quickly find out how much an extended warranty can save you. I bought a 78 Honda in 83, paid $300 for an extended warranty, the engine went and it cost me the $25 deductible. Two months later the tranny went (with a little help) and cost me another $25 deductible. Was I foolish then? We're pretty well off financially and I did not get that way by being foolish. How you doin? Financially?
Gotta work? I don't. Gotta new Caddie? I do. Got two brand new cars that you paid cash for? I do. The day I took possession, the titles went into the safety deposit box. Gonna buy another new car soon? I am. Saturday. For cash. Could you do that in the space of six months? I can. Run those numbers.


----------



## Rich

ShiningBengal said:


> In the early 70's, who knows, maybe CR was correct about disk brakes. One thing that you can say about CR--they don't accept advertisements. That doesn't mean they are infallible, but it does mean that their advice (unlike the sellers of these plans) is not tainted by a conflict of interest.


You must read Reader's Digest and take everything they publish as gospel too.


----------



## Rich

turls said:


> Well, its vaporware (AFAIK) at this point, so the fact they are working on it is irrelevant anyway. We'll have to see how well it works, but before that it has to come out.


Do you think Jeremy, with his 5500+ posts might just know a little more about this than you think you do?


----------



## LameLefty

rich584 said:


> Do you think Jeremy, with his 5500+ posts might just know a little more about this than you think you do?


FWIW, I don't know if Jeremy knows anything about it; I certainly don't. Keep in mind post counts aren't necessarily any indicator of superior skills in anything except typing and posting habits. :lol:

At the same time, there HAS been unreleased hardware field-tested by members of this forum before, without the general membership's knowledge. Jeremy and I were both part of the HR21 field testing team.

Does that mean there's an OTA "solution" for the HR21 that he's testing? I don't know at all. I can tell you I'm certainly not, and if he is (or anyone else on this Forum is), they're not going to spill the beans anyway.


----------



## RobertE

Can you guys put your respective manhoods back in your pants please. :grin: 


This thread is about the HR21-700 first look.

:backtotop 

Or maybe the thread should be closed.


----------



## shendley

I've had several receivers/dvrs fail on me as well but directv always replaces them for free (or cost of shipping sometimes). Especially since our machines are leased now, they are committed to replacing them if they break down. So, as far as I can see, all you're getting with the PP is coverage on the dish and lines running to the dish to the box. That's why I had my last service call that I paid for. They replaced the dish, the lnbs a while later on the dish, my multiswitch twice (alas, to no avail, though).



rich584 said:


> It is a crapshoot, but one I am glad I took. I have a lot of equipment, very few spares and a lot of wiring and two dishes and several multiswitches. When something breaks down, it's either replaced or serviced within 3 days.
> 
> The great majority of service calls I've had have been since last November and were caused by problems with HR20s. But I've had unit after unit fail since I had Ultimate TV DVRs and progressed to TiVos. I don't know for sure how many HR20s I've had but I wouldn't be surprised if the total is not approaching 30 units. Out of those 25-30 units I have 5 that function properly. Do the math. 20 units x over $300 apiece looks like $6000 to me floating around in cyperspace at one time or another if you don't have the PP.
> 
> You also have to take into consideration the fact that I rarely see my satellite bill, my wife pays it and never complains. For free labor and free replacement equipment the PP makes sense to me. Not every extended warranty is foolish. I have used extended warranties on used cars and saved quite a bit of money.
> 
> In the previous post to yours I was asked if I read Consumer Reports and agreed with their opinion of extended warranties. Yes I do. I don't trust every opinion they publish. In the early 70s they were dead wrong about disc brakes.


----------



## ShiningBengal

RobertE said:


> Can you guys put your respective manhoods back in your pants please. :grin:
> 
> This thread is about the HR21-700 first look.
> 
> :backtotop
> 
> Or maybe the thread should be closed.


Ad hominum attacks are the last refuge of those with indefensible positions.

Such posts don't deserve any reply and won't get one from me.


----------



## Rich

ShiningBengal said:


> Ad hominum attacks are the last refuge of those with indefensible positions.
> 
> Such posts don't deserve any reply and won't get one from me.


I think you meant "argumentum ad personam".

That said, arguments are one of the greatest learning tools. "Argument" is defined as "a heated discussion". A lesson learned during an "argument" is rarely forgotten.


----------



## Rich

RobertE said:


> Can you guys put your respective manhoods back in your pants please. :grin:
> 
> This thread is about the HR21-700 first look.
> 
> :backtotop
> 
> Or maybe the thread should be closed.


Getting off the topic got me two new books to read this week. I reply to email notifications most of the time and rarely even know what the name of the thread is. I've always thought the thread's name should show up somewhere on each post.

How you doin? Still working for the "man"? Or have you taken the big step?


----------



## Rich

shendley said:


> I've had several receivers/dvrs fail on me as well but directv always replaces them for free (or cost of shipping sometimes). Especially since our machines are leased now, they are committed to replacing them if they break down. So, as far as I can see, all you're getting with the PP is coverage on the dish and lines running to the dish to the box. That's why I had my last service call that I paid for. They replaced the dish, the lnbs a while later on the dish, my multiswitch twice (alas, to no avail, though).


One service call is equal to the price of the PP for a year. $70. If you don't have the PP they will replace the leased DVRs, but you are supposed to pay $19.99 for shipping. And if they think your problem is caused by "operator failure" rather than equipment failure, they will insist on sending someone out. $70.

This year, November to November, I had at least six service calls. 70 x 6 = 420. I have also had so many HR20s replaced that I have lost track, but lets be conservative and say 20 20s replaced at $19.99. 20 X 19.99 = 399.

So that works out to $420 for service calls and $399 for shipping HR20s for a grand total of $819 (I am aware that they don't make you pay shipping at times).

Did I do wrong in utilizing the PP? And saving possibly over $700?


----------



## Rich

shendley said:


> That's why I had my last service call that I paid for. They replaced the dish, the lnbs a while later on the dish, my multiswitch twice (alas, to no avail, though).


Did you get the system fixed? Bad multiswitches I know about. Never had an LNB fail. Have replaced them at times and saw no difference. The alignment is critical. I just had my dish realigned when the new satellite went on line and the guy only raised it about an inch, if that. I was sitting on the roof watching him and I remember thinking "it can't be that easy". It was.


----------



## ShiningBengal

rich584 said:


> I think you meant "argumentum ad personam".
> 
> That said, arguments are one of the greatest learning tools. "Argument" is defined as "a heated discussion". A lesson learned during an "argument" is rarely forgotten.


I meant exactly what I wrote. That said, the rest of your post is merely your opinion, albeit a rather novel one.

Dig a little deeper in your thesaurus and you will find this meaning for the word, argument: "an idea or opinion that is put forth in a discussion or debate <it's my argument that we shouldn't be assigned homework on Friday>"

_Argumentum ad personam_ is considered a falacious form of discourse. The argumentum ad hominem is a genetic fallacy and red herring, and is most often an appeal to emotion. It has nothing to do with illumination.

There is little learned in a heated discussion other than that ideas put forth in such discussions invariably take a back seat to volume.


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> Does that mean there's an OTA "solution" for the HR21 that he's testing? I don't know at all. I can tell you I'm certainly not, and if he is (or anyone else on this Forum is), they're not going to spill the beans anyway.


I'm definitely not testing any OTA solution for the HR21 right now. But if DirecTV does decide to field test it, which I expect they will, I would assume that the HR21 field testers would be the ones doing it.


----------



## Rich

ShiningBengal said:


> There is little learned in a heated discussion other than that ideas put forth in such discussions invariably take a back seat to volume.


This is interesting. And quite true. The corporation I worked for recognized that and assigned "facilitators" to meetings. Even the union company meetings. Works well and produces positive results. They performed the same function as moderators (or whatever you call them) in debates. A lot of us were trained as facilitators and I enjoyed doing it.


----------



## Rich

ShiningBengal said:


> Dig a little deeper in your thesaurus


I've never used a thesaurus. I've looked at them, but would rather use a good dictionary. But not when posting on the forum. I do use the Google spell checker on the Google toolbar.


----------



## turls

Jeremy W said:


> I'm definitely not testing any OTA solution for the HR21 right now. But if DirecTV does decide to field test it, which I expect they will, I would assume that the HR21 field testers would be the ones doing it.


Except from the looks of this thread, most of them don't have any use for OTA anyway


----------



## Jeremy W

turls said:


> Except from the looks of this thread, most of them don't have any use for OTA anyway


I don't miss OTA at all, but I would have no problem with testing an OTA device for the HR21. If DirecTV is willing to provide me with free stuff, I am willing to test it. Always.


----------



## shendley

Clearly, the PP has paid off in your case. But remember what I said initially: it's a crap shoot. And I still stand by that. I suspect you won't find that many people who need to have their HR20 replaced 20 times. As with all extended warranties you either gamble that you'll be in the minority of people with your sorts of severe problems or you'll be in the majority of people who won't. I still think the odds are in favor of the latter gamble.



rich584 said:


> One service call is equal to the price of the PP for a year. $70. If you don't have the PP they will replace the leased DVRs, but you are supposed to pay $19.99 for shipping. And if they think your problem is caused by "operator failure" rather than equipment failure, they will insist on sending someone out. $70.
> 
> This year, November to November, I had at least six service calls. 70 x 6 = 420. I have also had so many HR20s replaced that I have lost track, but lets be conservative and say 20 20s replaced at $19.99. 20 X 19.99 = 399.
> 
> So that works out to $420 for service calls and $399 for shipping HR20s for a grand total of $819 (I am aware that they don't make you pay shipping at times).
> 
> Did I do wrong in utilizing the PP? And saving possibly over $700?


----------



## Drew2k

Why have discussions of protection plans taken over this thread? Please start another thread to talk about protection plans ...

:backtotop


----------



## fredandbetty

Jeremy W said:


> I don't miss OTA at all, but I would have no problem with testing an OTA device for the HR21. If DirecTV is willing to provide me with free stuff, I am willing to test it. Always.


Oh i most certainly have to agree with that one!!! I would not hesitate for a SECOND to agree to test ANYTHING they offered!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

With almost 700 posts and over 53,000 views, I believe this thread has pretty much run its course.

Both Drew2K and I thoroughly appreciated and enjoyed the opportunity to share our early-tester findings on the HR21-700. 

Now that the HR21-700 is out in the marketplace and rapidly being updated with new firmware to catch up to the mainstream DVR capabilities, we hope everyone enjoys this latest offering in the DirecTV stable.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I agree... The First Look is now closed...


----------

