# Throwbot goes Direct, says bye to Charlie



## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

Hello hello hello; 
Still piddlin about with the 921 I see.
Well lads and lassies I did it! I jumped ship, Abandoned the HMS Echostar ! Over the side I went feet first into the HD Tivo. The CSR was most apologetic for the 921 being the reason I switched , even credited back my unused portion of my yearly commitment, that was $170.00 I had thought was a lost cause.
Did I make the right decision? Well let me tell you after a week of no problems; a week of season passes; duel OTA HD tuners; OTA Guide ! a week of no reboots. I'm as happy as a man with two willys!
I can honestly say that in the Amazonian rain forests there are tribes of Indians as yet untouched by civilization who have developed out of balsa wood and old vines more reliable machines than the 921. 
Thank God I never bought one !

All said and done is there anyone who can not honestly say that the 921 is definitely a sheep in sheep’s clothing.


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## moviegoerman (Aug 18, 2004)

Throwbot said:


> All said and done is there anyone who can not honestly say that the 921 is definitely a sheep in sheep's clothing?


 :welcome_s

Welcome to the Tivo Team! I still have my 921 for other reasons, but boy do I love my 10-250! It is light years ahead of the 921. If you need any help, then feel free to post at the tivocommunity.com. They're are a lot of people there to help with any questions. The more you know, the more you love.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

What good is the HD Tivo when D* is compressing the heck out of their HD channels(3 per transponder without the advanced compression techniques that E* uses) I think you should have gone with Voom when their HD dvr comes out


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

What advanced compression does E* have over D*?

By all reports I've seen, D* and E* are the same. Some say "oh, D* is sharper (or softer - whichever it is)" others say pretty much the opposite, but overall, they seem to be the same.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> What advanced compression does E* have over D*?
> 
> By all reports I've seen, D* and E* are the same. Some say "oh, D* is sharper (or softer - whichever it is)" others say pretty much the opposite, but overall, they seem to be the same.


Strictly talking hd channels not sd channels..E* uses 8psk and D* has decided to down res their hd channels to fit 3 per transponder..for complete details please go to avs forums


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

moviegoerman said:


> :welcome_s
> If you need any help, then feel free to post at the tivocommunity.com. They're are a lot of people there to help with any questions. The more you know, the more you love.


Let's not forget, we also have an HD-Tivo forum here at DBSTalk. 

Glad you are enjoying your new toy Throwbot and welcome.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Throwbot said:


> Thank God I never bought one !


??? Me no understand.


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

moviegoerman said:


> If you need any help, then feel free to post at the tivocommunity.com.


If the Tivo is so great, why would he need help?


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## moviegoerman (Aug 18, 2004)

kmcnamara said:


> If the Tivo is so great, why would he need help?


Tivo uses a different mindset... If your an avid 721/921 user, then it will be a different paradigm. It took me about a week to get used to how Tivo is meant to be used compared to using the guide and browsing for shows like the Dish receivers. There are also other hidden features (backdoors) that aren't out in the open too. But in general, just a place for people to talk.


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## moviegoerman (Aug 18, 2004)

garypen said:


> ??? Me no understand.


He didn't buy a 921. He got his money back from what I can tell.


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## moviegoerman (Aug 18, 2004)

Un-lucky said:


> What good is the HD Tivo when D* is compressing the heck out of their HD channels(3 per transponder without the advanced compression techniques that E* uses) I think you should have gone with Voom when their HD dvr comes out


I can't tell a significant difference between the 921 and the 10-250. See pics below:

http://pak01.pictures.aol.com/NASAp...AlbumViewFromEmails&locale=en_US&locale=en_US

If I look very close with the naked-eye (less than 1 foot), then the 10-250 picture actually looks a little bit better. From a distance watching regular content, I can't tell a significant difference from either picture in terms of quality... Below is a conversation on comparing the two units in terms of picture quality:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=31662&page=1&pp=40#post291075

I guess you could wait for Voom. They were predicting by the end of the year the last time I talked to them in April. And I think they are only planning for a single tuner DVR. Same issue I had with Comcast.

The 10-250 is the only dual tuner (2 sats and 2 OTA tuners) with OTA guide support today.


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

Just to clear up the thread , I had a 921 on order from last December through March at Dish Depot.
I cancelled after following the problems here at DBStalk, I can honestly say without this site I would have bought a 921.
I am already a member of Tivo Community, very informative not as much fun as this site,
The Tivo members exchange tips on using the Tivo.
You really end up never watching live TV and setting season passes up and then just pick a movie or show you want to watch. The picture is brilliant the OTA tuners are more powerfull than the ASTC inside my plasma panny. I can not say enough .
Listen I did not want to switch, I love the underdog, hate the big brother Rupert M. Just make a 921 as good as the Tivo and I would switch back.
But what a machine ! It is simply a kick arse machine.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

So you never actually used a 921 yourself, you just went with all the negatives that about it and decided to go elsewhere. Personally, I have yet to use a 921 since I do not have HD, but if it works like the 721, I would get it over an HD TiVo anyday because I can't stand the TiVo interface and the way it works. The 721 is seemlessly intergrated with the way all the other E* receivers work in most ways, while the TiVo and every D* box out there are all different. Upgrading a D* system has always been a headache since all the boxes work differently.


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## jcord51 (Feb 1, 2003)

When I first read (Throwbot) your post I interpreted as a post from someone who has been on both sides of the fence. I like my 921, just wish that the OTA was fixed already and that, here in New York, the Combiner was up and running. I do not like Rupert M.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Does anyone here read car reviews and avoid the ones that report poor reability?

good for those who do! 

It helps encourage manufacturers to do better!


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Yes, but the 921 got rave reviews in every magazine that I saw if featured in. And, quite frankly, it is still a great deal cheaper for a new sub to get the Free Dish and get it for $599 instead of buying a D* TiVo for $1k. Of course, for all current subs, the only option is the HDTV in a box for $1500, but a lot of people already have the TV.


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

larrystotler said:


> So you never actually used a 921 yourself, you just went with all the negatives that about it and decided to go elsewhere. Personally, I have yet to use a 921 since I do not have HD, but if it works like the 721, I would get it over an HD TiVo anyday because I can't stand the TiVo interface and the way it works. The 721 is seemlessly intergrated with the way all the other E* receivers work in most ways, while the TiVo and every D* box out there are all different. Upgrading a D* system has always been a headache since all the boxes work differently.


Well cover me in egg and flour and bake me for 15 minutes , I don't need a 921 to know it doesn't have OTA channels listings yet, and I don't need a 921 to know it doesn't have season passes yet, and I don't need a 921 to read about all the problems it still has, and I don't need a 921 to record one OTA channel while watching another ( need my Tivo for all that)
Don't you see ! Someone at Dish in the big roomy office with the oversize leathery chair has to be thinking
We got it wrong and tivo got it right, who do I fire before they fire me?
And unless people like me ( very few I'll admit thank the lord) don't complain then things will never rant ( I mean change)
So there !  
And "yet" spelled backwards is "tey" 
(sometimes I just get silly) :grin:


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Sadly the people at E who can fix these troubles dont appear to give a XXX. They are too busy coming up with new fees and rules excluding some subs from buying what they want. Oh thats right they are elminating the ability for subs to buy equiptement

Honestly I dont believe charlie is taking care of business, at least E business. Hios mind is elsewhere and eventually he will go WHAT WENT WRONG??

Well most here have a clear picture of the troubles...


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## moviegoerman (Aug 18, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> Yes, but the 921 got rave reviews in every magazine that I saw if featured in. And, quite frankly, it is still a great deal cheaper for a new sub to get the Free Dish and get it for $599 instead of buying a D* TiVo for $1k. Of course, for all current subs, the only option is the HDTV in a box for $1500, but a lot of people already have the TV.


The 921 is not like the 721. I have both. The 921 is similar in interface, but if you're used to using the 721, then you'll find it operates a little differently in many areas. It is not a 1-1 implementation which was very frustrating for me when I first trying using it. They were developed by two different teams.

As far as cost... I haven't seen any deals for existing subscribers. The 921 cost the same as the 10-250. i.e. $1000.

I'm sure the people that did the reviews on the 921 never used it for more than 1 hour... I bet they never tested the OTA recording... (i.e. using the guide). If they are a regular user, then they would noticed missed recordings, PIP 1/2 implementation, corner picture failures, and disfunctional favorites, etc.. Like most people that do reviews for the paid advertisements or the pre-hype that Dish put out for over 2 years.

The 921 is no where near the 10-250 in terms of features, functionality, and reliability. Yes, the interfaces are different. Each interface (921 and 10-250) has pros and cons in my opinion. At least my 10-250 records all my shows and the unit is everything I expected from it's representation.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Throwbot said:


> Well cover me in egg and flour and bake me for 15 minutes , I don't need a 921 to know it doesn't have OTA channels listings yet, and I don't need a 921 to know it doesn't have season passes yet, and I don't need a 921 to read about all the problems it still has, and I don't need a 921 to record one OTA channel while watching another ( need my Tivo for all that)
> Don't you see ! Someone at Dish in the big roomy office with the oversize leathery chair has to be thinkingWe got it wrong and tivo got it right, who do I fire before they fire me?
> And unless people like me ( very few I'll admit thank the lord) don't complain then things will never rant ( I mean change)
> So there !
> ...


That wasn't what I was trying to imply. The way you started this thread made it sound like you had a 921 at first, and I know that you did not. Now, I know that a lot of subs have had problems with the 921, but there are others that have had no problems worth mentioning. It's all part of the cycle. Some people can go buy a TV at wallyworld, and it will be fine, and others have nothing but problems. No electronics or mechanical device is immune from this. If the HD TiVo is doing what you wanted, then you sound like a satified customer. My biggest problem with D* is that they have raised the total choice pack from $29.99 5 years ago to $43.99 today. They are almost as bad as the cable companies they are making fun of. True, D* only charges 1 VoD fee whether you have 1 or more, whereas E* charges fro each, but if you have a standalone TiVo, it's $12.99/month for the first, and $6.99 for each additional, so I am wondering if this will change anytime soon. Sure, the 921 has limitations, but it was first to market and maybe Charlie will pull a rabbit out of his *** and have something that works better for a change.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

moviegoerman said:


> The 921 is not like the 721. I have both. The 921 is similar in interface, but if you're used to using the 721, then you'll find it operates a little differently in many areas. It is not a 1-1 implementation which was very frustrating for me when I first trying using it. They were developed by two different teams.
> The 921 is no where near the 10-250 in terms of features, functionality, and reliability. Yes, the interfaces are different. Each interface (921 and 10-250) has pros and cons in my opinion. At least my 10-250 records all my shows and the unit is everything I expected from it's representation.


I don't have much experience with the 921, so I don't know. But I'm sure it works enough like the other E* boxes that it isn't that much of a change. Yes, E* evidently put out a not ready fro prime time unit with the 921, but how is that any different from Micro$oft? They have been promising that WinFS since 1994, and it's been pushed back AGAIN to 2007. For a while, the 921 was the only game in town. I guess it all depends on what you want to do and what you want to spend.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Lets not forget the 721 and 921 are the end of a era. E for excellent reasons has decided to standardize on the 500 series boxes. They should of done this many years ago. The 501 508 510 heritage can be built on for later boxes. hopefully this will bring better more reliable operation, while cutting costs. Linux for new boxes isnt going to happen, and there will be no follow up to the 721 921.

all boxes should have a common interface, it makes teaching subs and CSRs much easier. D is doing the same thing too.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> My biggest problem with D* is that they have raised the total choice pack from $29.99 5 years ago to $43.99 today.


DirecTV's Total Choice with Locals is the same $40 as Dish's AT120 with Locals, but has many more real programming channels, some that Dish charges $50 for in AT180, many that aren't available from Dish AT ALL. (Plus, way less crap channels .)

If you have a problem with anyone over the TC Pack, I would think it would be Dish.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> biggest problem with D* is that they have raised the total choice pack from $29.99 5 years ago to $43.99 today


What?

Here's the facts Larry.

Back in 1/99, Dish Network's AT100 was $28.99/month, Total Choice from DirecTV was $29.99 per month, these prices of course do not include locals. Without local, in present day 9/04, Dish Network's AT120 is $34.99, an increase of $6, DirecTV's Total Choice is $36.99, an increase of $7. A one buck difference, and with Total Choice you get about 8 channels that Dish includes in AT180. Hardly sounds like the cable company to me. I don't know where you come up with the $43.99 price quote. Total Choice Plus with locals is $42.99, but hardly comparable to AT120. As Gary said, with locals, both packages are the same price since, DirecTV changes $3 across the board for locals and Dish changes $5, and the main differences is Dish has the Sirius music channels and DirecTV has more real channels.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Steve Mehs said:


> ... the main differences is Dish has the Sirius music channels and DirecTV has more real channels.


There will always be a difference of opinion comparing E* and D*'s lineups. D* does not claim an accurate channel count nor do they divide channels in a way that makes it easy to decide which are "real" and which are not so real, without subscribing and making that decision on one's own.

Personally, I have NEVER counted Sirius in channel counts. D* started the inflation by counting Music Choice channels, so E*'s Muzak supplied channels should remain counted. The number of PI channels is a requirement of the FCC. E*'s capacity is higher so they are forced to carry more PIs than D*. I'll give you the shopping channels. 13 is too many. But how many does D* have?

It would be cool to say that AT120 provides 197 national channels ... 192 of them on Dish500 or SuperDish. But that would include the 93 music channels, 22 PI channels and 13 shopping channels - the most easy targets for the "junk" label. ZAP we are down to about 69 "real" channels (although we really SHOULD count the 10-15 PIs and shopping channels commonly found on cable).

How many "real" channels is TC at under the same rules? How many of D*'s claimed "over 125" channels are real? Would anyone care to identify which of D*'s channels are PI and shopping so a "real" comparison can be done?

added: ---
My counts show "72" real channels in TC, plus five shopping channels:
# America's Store, Home Shopping Network, QVC, Shop At Home, ShopNBC
(no the Speed Channel is *not* home shopping)
Plus eight PI channels:
# C-SPAN, The Church Channel, Link TV, PAX TV, PBS You, Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), The Word, World Harvest Television
Plus five more PI channels (total 13) for Multi-Satellite viewers:
# Daystar, EWTN, HITN, NASA TV, RFD-TV

69 real channels vs 72? It isn't an issue of who has the most "real" channels but what channels are chosen for the $40 package level.

JL


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Steve Mehs said:


> What?
> 
> Here's the facts Larry.
> 
> Back in 1/99, Dish Network's AT100 was $28.99/month, Total Choice from DirecTV was $29.99 per month, these prices of course do not include locals. Without local, in present day 9/04, Dish Network's AT120 is $34.99, an increase of $6, DirecTV's Total Choice is $36.99, an increase of $7. A one buck difference, and with Total Choice you get about 8 channels that Dish includes in AT180. Hardly sounds like the cable company to me. I don't know where you come up with the $43.99 price quote. Total Choice Plus with locals is $42.99, but hardly comparable to AT120. As Gary said, with locals, both packages are the same price since, DirecTV changes $3 across the board for locals and Dish changes $5, and the main differences is Dish has the Sirius music channels and DirecTV has more real channels.


I forgot that the locals where included now. My mistake. But, D* used to offer a Select Choice package that was 19.99. This has become the total choice package, which is now $39.99 with locals(before, it was $26.98 w/ locals) of course, there are more channels in their base package now, but just a few months ago, the TC was $38.99 w/ locals, and the Plus was $39.99 w/ locals. And even just a year ago, the TC was $37.99. Of course, my understanding is that the retention dept will give you a select choice if you try to disconnect, but I have no idea what the price is. This is still a heck of an increase overall for both companies, especially since they have been bragging about the "PIG" campaign.(More E* than D*). Also, the AT180 includes the Encore pack, which E* sells seperately for $4.99 and the 2 west coast Movie Channel feeds. This alone makes the AT180 more worthwhile, IMHO. W/ D*, you have to get the starz pack to get the encores, and they don't have all of them if I am not mistaken. The biggest selling point for E* in my book is the 100hour DVR, the free HD receiver, and the club dish setup. D* doesn't really offer anything comparable. Their 40 hour TiVo is now $100 w/ a $50 rebate, and their HD boxes are far from free. And, E* is offering the dual tuner boxes, which is a draw for many since the mirror fees are lower. D* biggest selling point is it's Sunday Ticket.
The $43.99 was a mistype........should have been $42.99.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

justalurker said:


> 69 real channels vs 72? It isn't an issue of who has the most "real" channels but what channels are chosen for the $40 package level.
> JL


69 vs. 72? A difference of 3 channels? Hmmm. Total Choice seems has every channel in AT120, not counting music, PI, shopping, gaming, barker, and other bullship. Yet, it has many not in AT120, such as *Bloomberg, CNBC World, Fine Living, FitTV, Fox Movie Channel, Hallmark, Nat'l Geographic, Newsworld Int'l, NFL Network, Outdoor Life, Oxygen, Trio, and YES*. That makes 14 channels in TC that are not in AT120, _8 of which are not available for any price on Dish._

I'd say that's a lot bigger than 69 vs. 72.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> The biggest selling point for E* in my book is the 100hour DVR, the free HD receiver, and the club dish setup. D* doesn't really offer anything comparable. Their 40 hour TiVo is now $100 w/ a $50 rebate, and their HD boxes are far from free.


For $50, you get a dual tuner DVR that WORKS correctly. Can that be said of the 522? Plus, you can add an off-the-shelf IDE hdd for a few bucks to surpass any E DVR capacity.

As for an HD receiver with D? Again, it's a matter of spending a few bucks for something that WORKS CORRECTLY. There may indeed be such a thing as a free lunch. But, it tastes like sh*t.

Club Dish? I wouldn't dare risk losing a friend over $5 a month.

A big selling point for DirecTV for me? A single dish for 3 orbital slots. Plus, TC is _definitely_ a better value than AT120. There is absolutely _no argument to that fact_. Also, much better HW/SW. For others, it's NFL ST.

Dish's big selling point? International channels. That is the only true advantage they have over DirecTV. Perhaps Supers and Sirius for some people. That's it.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Larry I hate to keep contradicting you but as a long time former E* sub, who has seen the light and is now a hardcore DirecTV and TiVo fan, I can't let something's go 



> Their 40 hour TiVo is now $100 w/ a $50 rebate


The 40GB TiVo can be had for $60-$70, the 80GB for $100. No rebates, no new customer deal, no nothing. I bought a 40GB DirecTiVo at Best Buy for $70 last month. Hard drive sizes are a moot point anyhow, with a DirecTiVo you can upgrade the hard drive and add another for over 240 hours of standard definition programming, with Dish Network your pretty much stuck with the factory hard drive.



> you have to get the starz pack to get the encores, and they don't have all of them if I am not mistaken


Dish and DirecTV have all the same Encores, Dish has Straz Family and Starz Cinema E&W, which DirecTV doesn't have but Dish has them in the Starz Super Pak, not AT180.



> . D* biggest selling point is it's Sunday Ticket


For some maybe, but for me, a quality DVR, a real TiVo, not a semi functional imitation, that is more or less a digital VCR that can pause and rewind live TV. Between two 508s I spent $350, I spent $170 on three DirecTiVos that outshine the 508 in every aspect, except for stock hard drive size and guide speed. Having dual tuners and not having to baby sit the stupid box to make sure it records right are the two biggest advantages I see.

Plus with DirecTV I get all the regional sports networks I'm supposed to. My area qualifies for four different RSNs and I should receive them all in a core package. Empire, Fox Sports NY, MSG & YES are all my home RSNs. Dish doesn't carry YES, but the other three I should receive in AT120+. The only RSN I had access to with Dish was Empire, for the others I'd have to buy the Sports Pak. DirecTV gives me all my RSNs in Total Choice, Time Warner gives them all, so does Adelphia and they're available to all cable subs on both digital and analog. Why doesn't Dish, I have no idea of then different contracts.

Bottom line for me is that If DirecTVs satellites ever fell out of the sky, Time Warner would get my business back in a heartbeat, I'd never ever go back to the penny pinching Dish Network and their beta DVRs.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Steve:

I was speaking of the retail price of the D* DVR. They are listed at $100 on sites like compusa & D* after a quick google search. As for upgrading your TiVo, how many people actually do that? Most subs could care less about having to open the unit to upgrade it. Sites like this and the TiVo upgrade sites are for people who are willing to do and learn more. Almost all my E* customers have beenn completely satified with their 510s and 522s.

Thank you for the clarification about the Starz. I knew there was a differnce, just didn't know what. It is still a plus for E* to have the Encore pack seperately for people who don't want to pay for the whole package.

I have a 501, and except for an overheating issue that was my fault, it has been flawless. True, it only has 1 tuner, but it's an excellent box in every way that I want it to be. I bought my 721 because i wanted the dual tuner setup. And other than the HD crashing a week ago, it's been just as stellar. My biggest complaint it that I despise the TiVo interface. Just figuring out how to check the sat signal on them is a pain. It's always easy with a E* box. It's also way too darn slow at everything it does. TiVo is based on linux just like the 721, and the 721's speed blows away the TiVo boxes. As for upgrading the 5xxseries, that is very possible to do, though they are not as expandable as TiVo. Personally, I would like a hot swap setup that I could just plug in a different drive to watch different stuff. But it isn't really a need.

As for the sports nets, I hardly ever watch sports. Not my thing. E* struck a different path to make money, and I don't blame em. 

Gary-

If you like TiVo, then it's for you. I dispise TiVo. It's slow and cumbersome. Sure, it has some neat features, but they are features I can do without. What would be really nice is if the info screens showed you the episode number. Say, #79 of 100. That would make figuring out some shows much better, and neither company does this simple thing. And while D*'s boxes are simple and work fairly well, it is difficult for some subs who have 4 different boxes that all work differntly because they were made by 4 different companies. Having a specific command set is a plus for troubleshooting in my book. Yes, the E* boxes do have some problems, but most subs are perfectly happy with them 5 years ago I was a die hard D* fan. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just despise TiVo. Personally, I wish they were better systems, but............anyway, all I want from D* is Tanya Memme anyway.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Larry: I was a happy Dish owner, and was just waiting until the larger drive units came out. I can live with the trade-offs for free. But when Dish announced that they were going to charge a fee for DVR service, I switched. For the price, the software is better on the TiVo. And, witin six months, I had expanded that TiVo from 35 hours to 243 hours, and am still running out of room.

The DirecTiVo is a so-so standalone receiver. My mom's HBH-SAs are much better receivers than my DirecTiVo... or the 301 for that matter. But, I rarely wach programs life. I'm a student, therefore I time shift. But, I will admit some that I miss a few features that existed on the 501.

Lately, some of the stuff that is coming out of Dish has me worried. I'm not going to bash DirecTV or Dish. I just wish they would carry some more channels that I am interested in watching.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> Gary-
> If you like TiVo, then it's for you. I dispise TiVo. It's slow and cumbersome. Sure, it has some neat features, but they are features I can do without. What would be really nice is if the info screens showed you the episode number. Say, #79 of 100. That would make figuring out some shows much better, and neither company does this simple thing. And while D*'s boxes are simple and work fairly well, it is difficult for some subs who have 4 different boxes that all work differntly because they were made by 4 different companies. Having a specific command set is a plus for troubleshooting in my book. Yes, the E* boxes do have some problems, but most subs are perfectly happy with them 5 years ago I was a die hard D* fan. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just despise TiVo. Personally, I wish they were better systems, but............anyway, all I want from D* is Tanya Memme anyway.


If you hate Tivo, then DirecTV wouldn't be the way to go right now. That's for sure.  The only complaint I've ever heard about it is its slowness. But, remember that they'll be releasing their own branded DVR soon, based on the NDS software. (XTV? Something like that.) 
As for different interfaces on different DirecTV boxes...That could probably be said of a Dish household with an 811, 721, and 522. BTW, all of the current DirecTivo boxes appear to work the same way to me. I've checked the manuals, and they operate the saame way. The same can be said for the newest LG, Hughes, and Sony HD receivers.


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

I'm trying to live with the best of both worlds -- 80 hour standalone Series 2 TiVO connected to TWC "lifeline" cable for locals and to my 811 for E* programs. That posed a problem when I wanted to watch an HD source or digital locals (via OTA), so I took advantage of the 721 closeout offer. As I've stated elsewhere, I opted for Dish over DirecTV before D* HDTV boxes dropped in price. I got the 811 and a 311 for *free*, vs. around $600 for a two room D* system (one HD). Compared to D*, that's a $10 per month saving for five years! Yes, there are a few channels in TC that I wish I had with my Top 120 package, but I can live without them.
I love my TiVO, and am beginning to really enjoy the 721, which I have connected to my HT TV via S-video and to bedroom TV via the 721's RF output.
As to PQ issues -- PQ on all my satellite receivers is better than I ever had from Time Warner. I record some of the HD programs in SD to my TiVO when I have to do time shifting. The PQ is still good, thanks to line doubling in my TV. Not HD, but quite acceptable.
If I were switching from cable to satellite today, I might have gone with DirecTV, given the availability of HD DirecTiVO. Or not. :grin:


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

I have a 921, have had it for over 6 months. I have no complaints. None. I don't mess with OTA channels so perhaps that explains some of my satisfaction but the unit performs flawlessly and has for at least 4 months. No reboots, no blank screen, no lockups, just sits there humming away. I also have a hot-rod Series 2 TiVo, still hooked to cable. My wife uses it but I can't watch it because the picture is flat out lousy. Compare a digital cable run through the cable box and then a generation lost when it routes through the TiVo and then to the S-video on the TV, compare that with the SD signal from Dish that goes straight through my 921, gets a little upconverting boost from some electronic trickery and into the DVI hookup at the set - well, there is no comparison. I live in Alaska so I keep cable because I do lose signal in heavy snow storms 4-6 times a year and I have to have cable to keep my cable modem up.

HD Dish vs. HD Direct may be a fair comparison but, from what I hear, there is little difference. SD vs. SD is also close. TiVo software is easy to use but working with a 921 is pretty easy. I'd consider Direct, I suppose but I am too far north and west and Direct doesn't care about this market and Dish does. That says it all for me.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

garypen said:


> If you hate Tivo, then DirecTV wouldn't be the way to go right now. That's for sure.  The only complaint I've ever heard about it is its slowness. But, remember that they'll be releasing their own branded DVR soon, based on the NDS software. (XTV? Something like that.)
> As for different interfaces on different DirecTV boxes...That could probably be said of a Dish household with an 811, 721, and 522. BTW, all of the current DirecTivo boxes appear to work the same way to me. I've checked the manuals, and they operate the saame way. The same can be said for the newest LG, Hughes, and Sony HD receivers.


Thta' why News is going to use their own DVR tech. Because they won't have to pay TiVo. TiVo has had serious problems and D* is basically the bigget thing they have going. As a stand alone service, it is way too expensive. $12.95/month for the guide and stuff is ridiculous.

As for the differnt interfaces, the systems look similar, and they work basically the same way. Hitting info gets the same screen, just a little different look. The only real oddballs are the 721/921s. Their menu structures do not match the other receivers. With the 522, it's still Menu/6/1/1 to get to the signal stregnth, just like the 301/111/311/501/8/10/811/3900/etc. E*'s systems merely expand upon a set menu structure. W/ E*'s the sig screen can be in a number of places. Not neccessarily a bad thing, but it is a serious disadvantage trying to tech support them......
And the reason the TiVo unit are the same is because they all use the TiVo s/w.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Mark Holtz said:


> Larry: I was a happy Dish owner, and was just waiting until the larger drive units came out. I can live with the trade-offs for free. But when Dish announced that they were going to charge a fee for DVR service, I switched. For the price, the software is better on the TiVo. And, witin six months, I had expanded that TiVo from 35 hours to 243 hours, and am still running out of room.


You watch too much TV Dude.....  Yes, that is one very nice advantage that TiVo has over E*'s DVRs. However, there has ben some progress made in that area with the 5xx series, and i am working towards an upgrade to the 721s. The 721 has a lot of potential since it is based on Linux like the TiVo is. And D* charges the same DVR fee. Of course, this is the same reason I have a 501 & 721......



Mark Holtz said:


> The DirecTiVo is a so-so standalone receiver. My mom's HBH-SAs are much better receivers than my DirecTiVo... or the 301 for that matter. But, I rarely wach programs life. I'm a student, therefore I time shift. But, I will admit some that I miss a few features that existed on the 501.


The only thing the 5xx series lacks is the 2 tuner. Even with the small Hard drives, they are still good boxes. And I have always liked the Hughes receivers. I feel they are the best D* boxes.



Mark Holtz said:


> Lately, some of the stuff that is coming out of Dish has me worried. I'm not going to bash DirecTV or Dish. I just wish they would carry some more channels that I am interested in watching.


Trying to find the best balance of channels is not an easy game. I don't envy them their position.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> You watch too much TV Dude.....  Yes, that is one very nice advantage that TiVo has over E*'s DVRs. However, there has ben some progress made in that area with the 5xx series, and i am working towards an upgrade to the 721s. The 721 has a lot of potential since it is based on Linux like the TiVo is. And D* charges the same DVR fee. Of course, this is the same reason I have a 501 & 721......


The 721 had the potential to be a good box, and having it based upon Linux meant the potential of possibilities because of the open source software. Almost a replacement for the Dishplayer/WebTV.

Also, you can't buy a 522, you can only lease one... if you're lucky.

I also have a lot of shows and movies that I've been meaning to watch, but they tended to be pre-empted by school and homework. I have the entire third season of _24_, first season of _The Mole_ from GSN, and the fifth series of _The Amazing Race_ on the hard drive. In addition, Turner Classic Movies and Fox Movie Channel shows some interesting movies while I am either sleeping, working, or going to school.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

If I can get the 721 to recognize a second drive or a larger drive, that would be a good first step. Changing the available recording space doesn't conflict with the DMCA, or TiVo wouldn't be upgradable.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Have you already installed the 2nd hard drive in the 721? TiVo upgraders had an advantage because some versions of the box were sold with dual hard drives (so the software support was already there).

Are you going to try to unix merge the drives into one big unit for the E* software (better make a backup image first).


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

The series II DirecTiVos, AFAIK, have only one drive. There is room for two drives, however, it requires a drive bracket.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

No, but I am planning to. If nothing else, I may set it up as a mirrored riad array since Linux has software raid support. It will all depend on how much is actually in the kernel, and how much I can add to it without the receiver reformatting the HD. As soon as I get around to picking up a USB->Ethernet adapter, I am going to start playing with it. Since the system uses a Geode proc, it's possible that the system is very PC like. Just a matter of seeing IF the controller card will support or see 2 drives. If nothing else, it may be possible to use a usb drive. I wish I could find a used one cheap so I don't have to worry about screwing this one up............


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Mark Holtz said:


> The series II DirecTiVos, AFAIK, have only one drive. There is room for two drives, however, it requires a drive bracket.


The 721 has room for 2 drives or more as well.


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## Unthinkable (Sep 13, 2002)

garypen said:


> 69 vs. 72? A difference of 3 channels? Hmmm. Total Choice seems has every channel in AT120, not counting music, PI, shopping, gaming, barker, and other bullship. Yet, it has many not in AT120, such as *Bloomberg, CNBC World, Fine Living, FitTV, Fox Movie Channel, Hallmark, Nat'l Geographic, Newsworld Int'l, NFL Network, Outdoor Life, Oxygen, Trio, and YES*. That makes 14 channels in TC that are not in AT120, _8 of which are not available for any price on Dish._
> 
> I'd say that's a lot bigger than 69 vs. 72.


In all seriousness, none of the channels listed above have any appeal at all to me whatsoever. Also, unless things have changed drastically recently, I don't believe YES is a network that is even able to broadcast the majority of its professional sports programming to viewers all across the nation. Thats a premium NY sports channel for hardcore Yankees fans which also used to own the New Jersey Devils before its ownership group was dissolved. I'd classify these "additions" as "bullship" just the same personally. Keep in mind that selectively throwing out or discounting channels on Dish that are included in the top 120 just to maintain a personal stance that all their extras are garbage works the exact same way for Dish subscribers who have little to no interest in the extras DirecTV has in a competing package. Its not a fair apples-to-apples comparison when you continually use the caveat of "not counting" or "discounting" everytime you spin this to one side the way you do imo. For lots of people, channels like FitTV and Fine Living are about as welcome as a trip to the emergency room at 3am and tend to fall in the same never watched once in 8 years category as the barker channels and shopping channels on Dish Network do.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Unthinkable said:


> Keep in mind that selectively throwing out or discounting channels on Dish that are included in the top 120 just to maintain a personal stance that all their extras are garbage works the exact same way for Dish subscribers who have little to no interest in the extras DirecTV has in a competing package. Its not a fair apples-to-apples comparison when you continually use the caveat of "not counting" or "discounting" everytime you spin this to one side the way you do imo. For lots of people, channels like FitTV and Fine Living are about as welcome as a trip to the emergency room at 3am and tend to fall in the same never watched once in 8 years category as the barker channels and shopping channels on Dish Network do.


OK then. Tell me, What am I discounting or leaving out that isn't apples to apples? What wonderful channels does Dish offer in AT120 that is not in TC? BingoTV? Dish FYI? That Baseball Card and hunting knife shopping channel? Gimme a break. It's an excellent comparison.

A lot of the channels I mentioned must be important to some Dish subs, or Dish probably wouldn't include them in their more expensive AT180 package, would they?

I, for one, would love to have Fox Movies, Nat'l Geographic, Hallmark, and Trio as part of my AT120 package. I'm sure the wife would enjoy Oxygen. There might be 1 or 2 Yankees fans that would disagree with you about YES. I'm sure you'd feel the same as them if Dish didn't carry _your_ favorite team's RSN.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

garypen said:


> A lot of the channels I mentioned must be important to some Dish subs, or Dish probably wouldn't include them in their more expensive AT180 package, would they?


In general, E* adds channels to their highest package. There have been some exceptions, but it may be based more on WHEN the channel was added than what the channel is.

Would you count BingoTV and barkers in channel counts? I don't, even though BingoTV does have a following. Even the shopping channels make money!

And since you can't bother to do the work, here's my list of what is on E* at AT120 and not on D*'s TC. Let's start with the ones that people can get in AT60, the $10 less package that D* doesn't even offer:
# E*404 [AT-60] Horse Racing TV [110]
# E*405 [AT-60] TV Games Network (Horse Racing)
You have to pay D* nearly $90 per month for TVG, yet E* has it in the $26 package. HRTV isn't on D* at all.

# E*159 [AT120] SiTV
# E*828 [AT120] Univisión (Oeste) [110]
# E*830 [AT120] Telefutura (Este) [110]
# E*831 [AT120] Telefutura (Oeste) [110]
Four more channels that are not even available in TCPremier for $87.99 .

Not your first preference but there for the diverse E* audience.
And that doesn't even touch the 61 Sirus channels included.

Harp on your 12 channels, six that have not yet reached any E* lineup. Harp until the string wears through and breaks. Pay $39.99 so you can have 143 (less 36 music, 12 PI and 5 shopping channels ... make that 90) channels when for $44.99 you can have 191 (less 51 music - note I'm not counting Sirius, 22 PI and 13 shopping channels ... make that 105) channels that INCLUDES a movie channel package. D* even has "real" channels that are ONLY available in their top package ... got to buy the TC Premier for $87.99 to get "The Outdoor Channel" and "Fox Sports World"? E* folk get those for $44.99 in AT180!

The services are different. If you like D*'s pricing and structure feel free to subscribe. If you like E*'s pricing and structure subscribe there. Don't just look at a narrow catagory where one may beat the other and claim one the champ. One punch rarely wins the fight, and E* is landing blows too!

JL


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> D* even has "real" channels that are ONLY available in their top package ... got to buy the TC Premier for $87.99 to get "The Outdoor Channel" and "Fox Sports World"?


No they're not. The Outdoor Channel and Fox Sports World and a few others are in the sports pak, which can be had for $12 or less with other premiums. Add that to a Total Choice With Locals or TC+ With Locals and thats not exactly $88 a month.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/Packages_SportsPack.dsp


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Steve Mehs said:


> No they're not. The Outdoor Channel and Fox Sports World and a few others are in the sports pak, which can be had for $12 or less with other premiums. Add that to a Total Choice With Locals or TC+ With Locals and thats not exactly $88 a month.


Errors like this are bound to creep in when those who know better refuse to present the facts. If D* people are going to invade an E* forum and say D* is better they should present all of the facts anout their pet network instead of setting traps. But the point stands that one has to pay D* more than E* for those channels due to packaging, and BOTH systems have issues based on how they package the channels.

JL


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

What Jl said! :grin: 
It seems that there are lots of issues with programming packages on both sides of the fence. Ditto equipment. It would be nice if E*'s HDTV receivers worked as well as D*'s Hughes HTL-HD. To be fair, though, over the years there have been a number of D* receivers that weren't too good.
I wish I could compare the OTA reception of my 811 to that of one of the other HDTV OTA receivers currently available. The 49% problem is as annoying as Windows' blue screen of death. In a sense, E* and MS have a lot in common -- each continues to struggle in getting things right. Every time they issue a software upgrade, another problem pops up.

In defense of both carriers: if they have channels you don't want, don't watch them. Block them, or use a favorites list to exclude them. E* carries more "PI" channels because they carry more total channels. They carry more shopping channels because they contribute to the bottom line.

I don't frequent the DirecTV forums, so I don't know if there is a lot of Rupert bashing (or in the past, Hughes bashing) going on. My big gripes with Charlie Ergen center around his statements about "compelling content" and his seeming ignorance about the hardware/software problems inherent in many of E*'s receivers. Yadda yadda.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

justalurker said:


> Errors like this are bound to creep in when those who know better refuse to present the facts.


 I presented _the facts_. 


justalurker said:


> If D* people are going to invade an E* forum and say D* is better they should present all of the facts anout their pet network instead of setting traps.


I'm actually an "E* people". No traps set. Just presented _the facts_ as it applies to both services $40 packages. 


justalurker said:


> But the point stands that one has to pay D* more than E* for those channels due to packaging, and BOTH systems have issues based on how they package the channels.


You are _wrong_, as concerns AT120/TC. If one were to switch services, going from Dish's AT120 to DirecTV's TC, he/she would *gain Bloomberg, CNBC World, Fine Living, FitTV, Fox Movie Channel, Hallmark, Nat'l Geographic, Newsworld Int'l, NFL Network, Outdoor Life, Oxygen, Trio, and YES *(if residing in the YES market), and would *lose Horse Racing TV, TV Games Network (more Horse Racing), SiTV, Univision Oeste, and Telefutura Este and Oeste.*

Other than Hispanic Compulsive Gamblers, I don't see how anyone can possibly argue that AT120 w/locals is a better value at $40 than TC w/locals.

But, in fairness, Sirius music channels may be a factor to some. It isn't to me, though. It's nice to have, But no big deal, that's for sure.

Of course, AT60 is a better value for many than TC, based on price alone. And, DirecTV doesn't have anything to compare to AT180 either. Dish also has far more International channels (for the time being). So, for many, Dish does provide the superior choice.

The point I was making is that _at the $40 price point_, DirecTV is definitely the better value. It was only in response to the Di****es mantra of "DirecTV programming is always more expensive than Dish"._ It isn't._


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

garypen said:


> I presented _the facts_.


Minimally.


garypen said:


> The point I was making is that _at the $40 price point_, DirecTV is definitely the better value. It was only in response to the Di****es mantra of "DirecTV programming is always more expensive than Dish"._ It isn't._


Score one blow in the battle between E* and D* for D*. But remember the packaging problems.

BTW: Why is such a throwaway network like TVGames in Premier?

JL


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

justalurker said:


> Minimally.


If, by "minimully you meant "totally", you are correct.



justalurker said:


> Score one blow in the battle between E* and D* for D*.


That's all I was trying to say. I'm glad you can finally admit it.



justalurker said:


> But remember the packaging problems.


 If you mean that D doesn't offer as many package options, I believe I mentioned that. 


justalurker said:


> BTW: Why is such a throwaway network like TVGames in Premier?


I have no idea. Why is porn usually the most expensive? (And why does Dish carge $10 to cancel it?) It's a crazy world.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

garypen said:


> If, by "minimully you meant "totally", you are correct.


I didn't, so you are tottaly wrong. 


garypen said:


> That's all I was trying to say. I'm glad you can finally admit it.


I can't admit what you think, only you can. Thanks for finally admitting that all you were trying to say was D* was better under that one narrow descriptive catagory.

JL


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

justalurker said:


> Thanks for finally admitting that all you were trying to say was D* was better under that one narrow descriptive catagory.
> 
> JL


Umm. That's what I was saying from the beginning. It would be redundant for me to "admit" what I was saying all along, no?


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## Unthinkable (Sep 13, 2002)

garypen said:


> OK then. Tell me, What am I discounting or leaving out that isn't apples to apples? What wonderful channels does Dish offer in AT120 that is not in TC? BingoTV? Dish FYI? That Baseball Card and hunting knife shopping channel? Gimme a break. It's an excellent comparison.
> 
> A lot of the channels I mentioned must be important to some Dish subs, or Dish probably wouldn't include them in their more expensive AT180 package, would they?
> 
> I, for one, would love to have Fox Movies, Nat'l Geographic, Hallmark, and Trio as part of my AT120 package. I'm sure the wife would enjoy Oxygen. There might be 1 or 2 Yankees fans that would disagree with you about YES. I'm sure you'd feel the same as them if Dish didn't carry _your_ favorite team's RSN.


Point is, whats garbage to you and not worth counting in a final tally is likely another persons personal treasure when you go down channel lists like this and apply your own individual preferences. I wouldn't abandon ship and switch to DirecTV just for the sake of gaining any of these additional channels included in Total Choice as I don't personally see any added value in any of them. Others may and thats fine, but I don't see it as a deal breaker by any stretch of the imagination. At the end of the year, I'd watch a bunch of estrogen laden hypercaffeinated channels about as often as I would shopping channels or BingoTV which is to say _never once_ which was my underlying point in the previous response. The kinds of programming featured on Fox Movies, National Geographic, Hallmark etc... are already widely available on other channels with Dish. Its not much different from an extra HBO-West feed showing the exact same movies a few hours later with no really discernable compelling/differing programming. I'll gladly watch TLC, Animal Planet, and The Discovery Channels for any National Geographic fixes I may have if the need ever arises. Does Fox Movies really show anything that out of the ordinary today that can't already be found on TBS, TNT, FOX, IFC, USA, all the other networks etc...???? Hallmark channel? We already have that now. Its called WE, Lifetime, and Lifetime movies! Fine Living? We already have Food, HGTV, and the Travel channel not to mention marathons everyday on TLC where you can watch women giving their houses full makeovers. How much duplicate programming do we really need?

My point about YES was it seemed as though you were implying it would benefit DirecTV subscribers _everywhere_ when the reality is, outside of the NY DMA, its not going to give subscribers access to premium professional sporting events on a wide scale. Why are you tossing that in the mix when we could just as easily grab any arbitrary locals-to-locals comparison and find a market where Dish offers one or more channels that DirecTV doesn't to make the case that you are getting more and better with one provider over another? Same exact thing in arguing channel counts and a clear victor like this, is it not?


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Yep. Everyone seems to have a reason for which service they prefer. Trying to change someone's mind is like talking religion or politics..................


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

Like I was saying.................................................................................................................


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Unthinkable said:


> At the end of the year, I'd watch a bunch of estrogen laden hypercaffeinated channels about as often as I would shopping channels or BingoTV which is to say _never once_ which was my underlying point in the previous response. The kinds of programming featured on Fox Movies, National Geographic, Hallmark etc... are already widely available on other channels with Dish. Its not much different from an extra HBO-West feed showing the exact same movies a few hours later with no really discernable compelling/differing programming. I'll gladly watch TLC, Animal Planet, and The Discovery Channels for any National Geographic fixes I may have if the need ever arises. Does Fox Movies really show anything that out of the ordinary today that can't already be found on TBS, TNT, FOX, IFC, USA, all the other networks etc...???? Hallmark channel? We already have that now. Its called WE, Lifetime, and Lifetime movies! Fine Living? We already have Food, HGTV, and the Travel channel not to mention marathons everyday on TLC where you can watch women giving their houses full makeovers. How much duplicate programming do we really need?


It sounds like AT60 will suit you fine then, since you are happy with minimal channel choices. However, in terms of _value for $40_, there is simply more real programming on TC than AT120. That was my point, and it still holds true. Why are you still arguing it? It's like arguing that strawberry ice cream is not more colorful than vanilla. Yes, you may prefer the taste of vanilla. But, that doesn't change the color, does it?


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> Yep. Everyone seems to have a reason for which service they prefer. Trying to change someone's mind is like talking religion or politics..................


It all depends on why people have made their choices. Some simply use logic. While others seem to have an emotional attachment. My choice of Dish is a logical one due to specific programming not available on DirecTV. If DirecTV had that programming available, I would most likely switch for the many other benefits they would have for me over Dish. I have zero emotional attachment to any company. I'd even choose Cable, if they had the product, service, and quality I needed at a price I felt was fair.


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