# Dumping DirecTV & Signing Up with Dish



## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

Based on what happened to my wife & I (as well as quite a few other folks in the corners of Utah & SW Wyoming), where DTV shut off our HD locals for good as of April 4th, we are going to make the move to Dish this next week.

We are planning to go with the America's Top 250 HD package, an HD DVR receiver, with a 2-year commitment (and this will actually be through Frontier Communications, who is our local phone company as part of a combined phone/DSL/Dish bundle). 

Before we do this, I have some questions, so I would sure appreciate it if folks with any pertinent input can weigh in.

1) When we have switched or upgraded services in the past, we have typically gone top-of the-line for such things as receivers. I am inclined to get a ViP 922 HD DVR, but maybe that is overkill for us. What we have is a single HDTV in our house and we won't be getting any more TV's, so that's it. However, we record (and save) a lot of movies and other programming material, so I know we would like the 1 terabyte hard drive over the 500 GB hard drive in the ViP 722k HD DVR, but I don't know about the rest of it. Any thoughts?

2) Speaking of receivers, it has been common knowledge for quite some time that DirecTV will not commit to a new customer in terms of getting their receiver of choice, so it has been pretty much you get what is off the top of the stack or the installer has in his truck at the time. However, when I initially talked on Friday to both Dish and then our phone company (through the bundled package approach), they both unequivocally said that it was absolutely no problem for a Dish customer to specify exactly what receiver model they wanted and that would be the one that would be installed. Has this been the experience of folks who are already with Dish?

3) Even though our 84530 zip code shows that we can get our local channels from Salt Lake City in HD (and Dish customer service & sales confirmed this), we still might be toward the edge of the spot beam (being in the southeastern corner of Utah). Based on this, what specific HD dish should we be getting? (... and I certainly hope we don't get into a situation where we need two dishes for any reason). 

4) Although a more minor point, I am hoping that the Dish installer can use the same HD dish mast that DirecTV put in, just so we don't have to be punching more holes in our house.

5) The Dish sales rep really warned me over and over again during our Friday conversation that we were likely to get screwed by going with a bundled package through our phone company. She said that if anything changed in the bundle (such as with the phone or DSL), that could jack up the costs for the Dish portion of our bundle, or that if we simply upgraded to a premium channel package at some point, that could increase the costs for our phone and/or DSL. This didn't seem very likely to me, but has anyone else who went the bundled route with a Dish Network partner ever encountered this type of thing before? (And the reason we are going the bundled route is that the first year and second year monthly costs for the Dish piece are quite a bit less, as well as some other price breaks ... and on top of that, our phone, DSL, and Dish bills will also be reduced 5% each per month).

So, if anyone can comment on any of the above, that would be great (as well as anything else I should know about).

Thanks in advance,
Don


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I'll answer two things. I do not happen to like bundling with Dish, so I agree with the CSR. That is a personal decision however.

Go to the dish site, put in your information to see exactly what you should get as far as locals and sports teams.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

1. Unless you plan to use the Sling capabilities of the 922, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to pay the extra money for it. All you'd really be getting is a different UI, and you'd be paying an extra $200 upfront and $4/month for it.

2. For the past several years, Dish has stopped advertising model numbers and now only talks about receiver classes, like DirecTV does. This is because they do not promise any specific model numbers of receivers, though certain classes only have one model number available.

HD Duo Slingloaded DVR - 922
HD Duo DVR - 622/722/722k
HD Solo DVR - 612
HD Duo Receiver - 222/222k
HD Solo Receiver - 211/211k

On the left is what you are "promised", and on the right are the model numbers that promise includes. You could get anything in that class.

As always, going to a retailer and ordering from them will allow you to get what you want, but you can't do that with a bundled deal. As a rule, just like DirecTV, if you go with the better "internal" deal, you lose the ability to get the receivers you specify.

3. The entire country now gets the Dish 1000.4, but there are two LNB packs, one for Eastern Arc (61.5/72.5/77) and one for Western Arc (110/119/129). Unless you order Internationals, you'll get a 1000.4 dish, likely on the WA.

4. No, Dish requires one of two specific masts (they're marked from the factory), and using an old DirecTV mast, even if it fits, is an instant QC fail and full chargeback for the tech.

5. I don't know the terms of your deal, but as a general rule, bundling can make things a little more difficult, no matter who the companies involved are. Having said that, Frontier seems to have a pretty good rep dealing with Dish customers, for the ones in my area, anyway.


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

DEC said:


> 1) ... I am inclined to get a ViP 922 HD DVR, but maybe that is overkill for us. What we have is a single HDTV in our house and we won't be getting any more TV's, so that's it. However, we record (and save) a lot of movies and other programming material, so I know we would like the 1 terabyte hard drive over the 500 GB hard drive in the ViP 722k HD DVR, but I don't know about the rest of it. Any thoughts?


The 922 will allow you to view your Dish Network programming (including what you have recorded on the DVR) on any computer, smart phone, or any other Sling enabled device. It does not have a separate RF output to drive any other TVs.

The 722K does have a separate RF output so you can connect another TV that can watch something different than the main HDTV it without any additional fees. You can split that output so you can view the same programming on other TVs too, but you will need to buy extra remotes for each TV. You can buy a $99 Sling adapter to give it the same capability as the 922 to watch programming over the Internet (it shuts off the 2nd TV only when you are viewing programming over the Internet). You can also add an OTA module so you can get TV over the air. Then, you could record 2 Sat and 2 OTA programs at the same time.

Both receivers will allow you to attach external hard drives to store programming.


> 2) Speaking of receivers, it has been common knowledge for quite some time that DirecTV will not commit to a new customer in terms of getting their receiver of choice ...


If you deal with a reseller of Dish, then you should be able to get the receiver you want. If you order a 922, you will pay extra for it, but you will definitely get a 922.



> 3) ... Based on this, what specific HD dish should we be getting? (... and I certainly hope we don't get into a situation where we need two dishes for any reason).


That shouldn't be a problem. You will most likely get a Western Arc dish, but your installer will sort that out.



> 4) Although a more minor point, I am hoping that the Dish installer can use the same HD dish mast that DirecTV put in, just so we don't have to be punching more holes in our house.


Probably can if you had the larger DirecTV dish. If not, I recommend a pole mount. That way, you can clear snow/ice off of it when necessary.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

tampa8 said:


> I'll answer two things. I do not happen to like bundling with Dish, so I agree with the CSR. That is a personal decision however.
> 
> Go to the dish site, put in your information to see exactly what you should get as far as locals and sports teams.


I don't deny that keeping a satellite TV service on a separate bill & account perhaps simplifies things, but it's really hard to pass up the significant savings that a bundle would do for us overall (as we are on a budget). I will grill our phone company rep tomorrow about this, and if we do go bundled, I can only hope I don't come to regret it at some future date.

And I checked on the locals we would get with Dish for our location, and the 20 channel line-up is essentially identical with those broadcast by DirecTV (including those in HD & SD and SD only). For sports teams, we are typically satisfied with the games & teams provided by the networks & other channels in the package, so we should be good to go there (in other words, we don't sign up for any of the sports packages).


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

BattleZone said:


> 1. Unless you plan to use the Sling capabilities of the 922, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to pay the extra money for it. All you'd really be getting is a different UI, and you'd be paying an extra $200 upfront and $4/month for it.


Honestly, we probably wouldn't use the Sling capabilities all that much, so if that's the only benefit, then we might be better off going with the 722k.



> 2. For the past several years, Dish has stopped advertising model numbers and now only talks about receiver classes, like DirecTV does. This is because they do not promise any specific model numbers of receivers, though certain classes only have one model number available.
> 
> HD Duo Slingloaded DVR - 922
> HD Duo DVR - 622/722/722k
> ...


That's really interesting, as I absolutely hammered the Dish CSR/sales rep as well as the Frontier phone company rep about the specific model number ordering thing through Dish, and they were both adamant that it would be no problem on a specific model number basis (even to the point of new versus refurbished). I am not doubting you, so I probably got fed a line.



> 3. The entire country now gets the Dish 1000.4, but there are two LNB packs, one for Eastern Arc (61.5/72.5/77) and one for Western Arc (110/119/129). Unless you order Internationals, you'll get a 1000.4 dish, likely on the WA.


 OK, thanks



> 4. No, Dish requires one of two specific masts (they're marked from the factory), and using an old DirecTV mast, even if it fits, is an instant QC fail and full chargeback for the tech.


OK, and that doesn't completely surprise me.



> 5. I don't know the terms of your deal, but as a general rule, bundling can make things a little more difficult, no matter who the companies involved are. Having said that, Frontier seems to have a pretty good rep dealing with Dish customers, for the ones in my area, anyway.


Well, it's at least encouraging to hear that Frontier has a decent rep in the Bay Area (and we used to live along the San Mateo coastline before moving to Utah in '99, but we had cable there at that time).


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

jsk said:


> The 922 will allow you to view your Dish Network programming (including what you have recorded on the DVR) on any computer, smart phone, or any other Sling enabled device. It does not have a separate RF output to drive any other TVs.


In our very rural area, cell phone reception is very spotty, so we don't have a smart phone. And the Mac & PC computers we have are not Sling enabled, so it's not likely that we will be using Sling capabilities any time in the near future. So, as I responded above, the 922 is probably overkill for us.



> The 722K does have a separate RF output so you can connect another TV that can watch something different than the main HDTV it without any additional fees. You can split that output so you can view the same programming on other TVs too, but you will need to buy extra remotes for each TV. You can buy a $99 Sling adapter to give it the same capability as the 922 to watch programming over the Internet (it shuts off the 2nd TV only when you are viewing programming over the Internet). You can also add an OTA module so you can get TV over the air. Then, you could record 2 Sat and 2 OTA programs at the same time.


Well, as I already indicated, we will not be getting any additional TV's as we have always been a one-TV household and that's the way we prefer it (it's just my wife and I).



> Both receivers will allow you to attach external hard drives to store programming.


I was interested in going with this approach with the HD DVR we currently have from DirecTV. However, when I looked further into it, it sounded like a bad idea as DirecTV pretty much stated on their website that it wasn't supported and that a customer was on their own. Moreover, I also saw a lot of negative commentary on forums and other sources where it seemed like a lot of technical issues could arise from software updates on the receiver not registering or "catching up" with the external hard drive, making any recorded programming unwatchable or perhaps inaccessible. Are the use of external hard drives with Dish ViP HD DVR's not an issue in this regard?



> If you deal with a reseller of Dish, then you should be able to get the receiver you want. If you order a 922, you will pay extra for it, but you will definitely get a 922.


That sounds encouraging, however, I wonder if that has to do with the fact (as BattleZone pointed out above), that the 922 is the only HD Duo Slingloaded DVR (so if I ordered that, I would get it), where if I ordered a 722k, I might end up getting any of the three models in the HD Duo DVR family (i.e., a 622, a 722, or a 722k).



> That shouldn't be a problem. You will most likely get a Western Arc dish, but your installer will sort that out.


OK, I figured the installer would probably take care of that. The reason I asked was that when I stepped up to DirecTV HD, there were about three different dishes out there at the time, and one of them was definitely the preferred one.



> Probably can if you had the larger DirecTV dish. If not, I recommend a pole mount. That way, you can clear snow/ice off of it when necessary.


We have a very beefy, cross-braced, wall-mounted mast on the southern side of our house for one of the large HD dishes from Direct TV. We have had roof mounted dishes before, but they were a pain to get accumulated snow off of them. Although it is more obtrusive, we actually prefer the much lower wall-mounted mast & dish as it is in fact easy to see and to get to for brushing the snow off of it when that becomes necessary.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

A couple of corrections to other replies:

The 922 does indeed have an RF output for TV2. TV2 functionality was disabled via software when the 922 was first released, as the Sling output "takes over" the TV2 output when used. Since then, a software update was released to enable normal RF (SD-only) TV2 use when the Sling is not being used.

jsk noted that if you use a "reseller", you can get the model of receiver that you want. That is generally not correct; "reseller" would be someone like Frontier. If you use a RETAILER, then you can get the receiver you want in most cases (at least, you'd know what you were getting up-front, and most of the time that would be the latest model), but you can't get the deal from a partnered reseller that way.

Last, your DirecTV Slimline "HD" dish uses a 2" OD mast and a larger mast foot. All current Dish Network dishes use a 1 5/8" OD mast and a smaller mast foot, and rules for the 1000.4 dish, which is now standard for HD installs (without International channels) nationwide, requires one of two specific, marked masts per QC requirements. One of them is the same mast as the larger Dish 1000+, and comes with 2 support struts, and the other is smaller and looks like the standard masts that all smaller dishes used, except that both of these masts use thicker steel in both the mast and the foot, which is necessary due to the increased weight and sail area of the Dish 1000.4. Thus the requirement to use the specified mast.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

3) Not an issue. HD locals coverage from 129: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?...5&zoom=7&beam=5896&type=normal&name=Temporary

SD locals coverage from 110: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?...5&zoom=6&beam=5835&type=normal&name=Temporary

5) Aren't there some things bundle subscribers miss out on, like Dish Remote Access (search, create/edit timers via internet)?



DEC said:


> Are the use of external hard drives with Dish ViP HD DVR's not an issue in this regard?


An EHD connected to an HD DVR is for archival only, you can play back directly from the EHD or after restoring to the internal drive. It has no effect on the operation of the receiver.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

My neighbor did a bundle with Frontier through DirecTv and they were very good about getting him what he wanted.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

BobaBird said:


> 3) Not an issue. HD locals coverage from 129: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?...5&zoom=7&beam=5896&type=normal&name=Temporary
> 
> SD locals coverage from 110: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?...5&zoom=6&beam=5835&type=normal&name=Temporary


Thanks



> 5) Aren't there some things bundle subscribers miss out on, like Dish Remote Access (search, create/edit timers via internet)?


I have no idea. But this begs another question that I will have to ask our local phone company with the bundle tomorrow ... When I need technical support, need to schedule a service visit, change a premium movie channel package, etc., do I call Dish like a regular Dish customer, or do I first call my local phone company??



> An EHD connected to an HD DVR is for archival only, you can play back directly from the EHD or after restoring to the internal drive. It has no effect on the operation of the receiver.


You will have to bear with me on this, as I have no experience with it, but I thought that when you have an EHD hooked up to a DVR that it basically defeats or takes the place of the internal hard drive. Is that true or not? And when you say archival use only, what does that mean? That the internal hard drive is still working and being seen, or what? And is there something that you are doing with the remote and a menu that lets you "toggle" between the internal versus external hard drive? I obviously have no clue about this, except that I am not interested in getting into a bunch of issues with an EHD (even if the EHD doesn't mess with the receiver operations itself).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

BattleZone said:


> HD Duo Slingloaded DVR - 922


Actually, the ViP922 is called a "ViP® 922 SlingLoaded™ DVR".


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

DEC said:


> You will have to bear with me on this, as I have no experience with it, but I thought that when you have an EHD hooked up to a DVR that it basically defeats or takes the place of the internal hard drive. Is that true or not?


Not true. The internal drive is always active.


> And when you say archival use only, what does that mean?


You cannot record directly to the external drive. In that, it is an archival tool. You can _play_ directly from the external drive.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

harsh said:


> Not true. The internal drive is always active.


OK, that helps clarify my misconception.



> You cannot record directly to the external drive. In that, it is an archival tool. You can _play_ directly from the external drive.


OK, so if I understand this correctly, then a movie that I have recorded on the internal hard drive can be transferred to the external drive afterwards and then later played from the external drive directly. And I don't want to necessarily get into the deep details at this juncture, but then there must be a convenient way (using the remote to access a menu item/screen through the HD DVR), that lets me transfer recorded material from the internal drive to the external drive, later play a recorded/transferred movie on the external drive, and otherwise go back & forth between the two drives. Would this be reasonable to say?


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Totally reasonable. I do it all the time.


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## Ted M (Mar 18, 2010)

We live in northern New Hampshire, and DTV took away our HD Locals about ten days ago, for good.

It was back to SD Locals, which meant we had to use the satellite at 119 again. I took off the 3-LNB (for 99, 101, and 103) I bought and installed and reinstalled DTV's 5-LNB. Major tree trouble meant a very weak signal that gave out in the slightest rain.

We wanted Locals in HD, so we switched to Dish. I called the local retailer about 20 miles away, in Lancaster, NH. Small town, only about 3,000 people. Small dealer; a husband and wife team, but an authorized Dish installer.

We got exactly the receivers we wanted; a ViP922 and a ViP722. The antenna points south, about 60 degrees more CCW than DTVs dish. Now we have perfect line of site with no tree problems and we have our HD Locals back.

First bill was about $265, for the two receivers and the first month's Top 250.

We were with DTV for 15 years, but got tired of the different-excuse-every-time our Locals were lost and had to reauthorize (12 times in three months).

Ted


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## david_jr (Dec 10, 2006)

I thought I read somewhere that if you ordered the seperate OTA module for the 722K with your initial order it would guarantee you a 722K. I think the module runs about $30. Also as far as EHD goes, I have been using a Western Digital 640GB hooked to my 722 for about 2 years with no problems. I believe they don't even charge for the EHD enabling anymore.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

The OTA module from Dish is $50.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

After a lot of going back and forth, we've decided to go with a ViP 922 SlingLoaded HD DVR for our switch to Dish. I know this costs more upfront and a bit more per month, but it gives us the most internal hard drive capacity, the newest interface, and if we ever decided to use the Sling capability, it's already in the unit without having to buy a module (and we can still go with an external hard drive down the road if we have a need for that). Additionally, if we order the 922, there's no way we're going to end up with a lesser receiver as it's the only unit in the Sling loaded "family" of ViP receivers.

Now the only remaining question is whether we go directly with Dish (more straightforward/more expensive) or the bundled route with Frontier (more complicated/less expensive). Either way, that decision will get shaken out sometime today.

Thanks again for all the really great input everyone!


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

DEC said:


> Based on what happened to my wife & I (as well as quite a few other folks in the corners of Utah & SW Wyoming), where DTV shut off our HD locals for good as of April 4th, we are going to make the move to Dish this next week.
> 
> We are planning to go with the America's Top 250 HD package, an HD DVR receiver, with a 2-year commitment (and this will actually be through Frontier Communications, who is our local phone company as part of a combined phone/DSL/Dish bundle).
> 
> ...


Welcome to Dish.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

Paul Secic said:


> Welcome to Dish.


Thanks!


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

OK, the deal's done. We decided to go the bundled route with Frontier. The installation appointment for our new Dish set-up is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon and DirecTV is turning off our current service with them as of midnight tonight. We are going with the America's Top 250 HD package, a ViP 922 HD DVR, and free Showtime for 3 months. (And of course, we'll be getting our HD local channels back).


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## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

DEC said:


> OK, the deal's done. We decided to go the bundled route with Frontier. The installation appointment for our new Dish set-up is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon and DirecTV is turning off our current service with them as of midnight tonight. We are going with the America's Top 250 HD package, a ViP 922 HD DVR, and free Showtime for 3 months. (And of course, we'll be getting our HD local channels back).


Cool!

But I suppose i wouldn't qualify for the bundle if I already have Dish.

Note, our local telco is frontier.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

bnborg said:


> Cool!
> 
> But I suppose i wouldn't qualify for the bundle if I already have Dish.
> 
> Note, our local telco is frontier.


Probably not, but it wouldn't hurt to give Frontier a call.


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## VDP07 (Feb 22, 2006)

DEC said:


> OK, the deal's done. We decided to go the bundled route with Frontier. The installation appointment for our new Dish set-up is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon and DirecTV is turning off our current service with them as of midnight tonight. We are going with the America's Top 250 HD package, a ViP 922 HD DVR, *and free Showtime for 3 months*. (And of course, we'll be getting our HD local channels back).


I assume you signed up for cc autopay with paperless billing to get Showtime "Free 4 three". If so, make sure to get Dish Platinum "Free 4 three" as well. HD free for life also.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

VDP07 said:


> I assume you signed up for cc autopay with paperless billing to get Showtime "Free 4 three". If so, make sure to get Dish Platinum "Free 4 three" as well. HD free for life also.


Since I went through a bundled phone/DSL/Dish package with our local phone company, our billing for all three (including the Dish piece) is through our phone company.

Anyway, I'll call our phone company rep tomorrow to see about the Dish Platinum "Free 4 three" deal, as I hadn't heard of that.

Thanks


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2011)

bnborg said:


> Cool!
> But I suppose i wouldn't qualify for the bundle if I already have Dish.
> Note, our local telco is frontier.


Yes, anyone who has service through a bundled provider, Frontier, can request to be bundled at any time through their telephone provider!



DEC said:


> Anyway, I'll call our phone company rep tomorrow to see about the Dish Platinum "Free 4 three" deal, as I hadn't heard of that.Thanks


Welcome to Dish Network!!!! If you would like any assistance with your Dish Network programming, please feel free to send myself ot any of the DIRT members a PM and we will be happy to assist you. Frontier does do your billing but they refer you to Dish Network for all account specific satellite questions! I hope you are enjoying your VIP922 and your locals in HD! Have an awesome day!


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

VDP07 said:


> I assume you signed up for cc autopay with paperless billing to get Showtime "Free 4 three". If so, make sure to get Dish Platinum "Free 4 three" as well. HD free for life also.





DEC said:


> Since I went through a bundled phone/DSL/Dish package with our local phone company, our billing for all three (including the Dish piece) is through our phone company.
> 
> Anyway, I'll call our phone company rep tomorrow to see about the Dish Platinum "Free 4 three" deal, as I hadn't heard of that.
> 
> Thanks


I did find out that we also get Dish Platinum free for 3 months along with Showtime. And even though we don't do autopay with our Frontier billing, we still get free HD for life through our bundle.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Welcome to Dish Network!!!! If you would like any assistance with your Dish Network programming, please feel free to send myself ot any of the DIRT members a PM and we will be happy to assist you. Frontier does do your billing but they refer you to Dish Network for all account specific satellite questions! I hope you are enjoying your VIP922 and your locals in HD! Have an awesome day!


Mary,

Thanks for the welcome, but I am sorry to say that my wife and I are experiencing some mixed results with our new Dish HD service.

On the positive side, the Dish installer (Tony) was hands down the very best installer of any service or equipment we have had installed in the past. He was patient, thorough, knowledgeable, and extremely helpful. And the ViP 922 HD DVR is magnificent, particularly the user interface (and it's likely going to take us a while to learn all of its capabilities). And of course, we are very happy to get our HD locals back that we lost through DirecTV.

That said, my wife and I are pretty disappointed in the HD picture quality from Dish. It has noticeably less resolution, clarity, and fidelity than we had from DirecTV, across every HD channel we have looked at so far. And the SD resolution is significantly worse than DirecTV. Tony did a great job setting-up our HD dish & system and we are set to 1080i HD, so all we can conclude is that we are seeing what could be referred to as "HD Lite". There are many of the classic signs and compression artifacts of rate-shaping and down-sampling yielding a degraded resolution HD picture over what we were previously seeing through DirecTV. This is not to say that DirecTV doesn't employ these same HD re-compression and bitrate/bandwidth reduction techniques to their HD programming, but there is just no doubt to us that the Dish HD picture quality is more compromised in comparison.

I don't think there is likely anything that can be done to improve this situation in the short-term, but if you have any ideas, I am all ears. Beyond that, we are earnestly hoping we can somehow get used to the reduced picture quality over time.

Don


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## 1980ws (Mar 18, 2008)

DEC said:


> > Mary,
> >
> > Thanks for the welcome, but I am sorry to say that my wife and I are experiencing some mixed results with our new Dish HD service.
> >
> > ...


Uh-Oh. Hope it's fixable.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

That's strange. As a former D* sub I had quite a different experience. I didn't see any difference in HD PQ, and Dish SD was vastly better. I'd double check those settings. But I'm on the eastern arc, which may be different.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

DEC said:


> Mary,
> 
> Thanks for the welcome, but I am sorry to say that my wife and I are experiencing some mixed results with our new Dish HD service.
> 
> ...


Sad to say, but no there isn't much that can be done about that on your end. That's just Dish Network's way of operating. Some people care and some don't.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Thing is, it's widely accepted (with the possible exception of some resolutiontrolls) that the SD on Dish is better than the SD on Direct. I'd think there's something up with the settings somewhere. 

Is it possible your TV or AVR is resampling again along the line? That could cause some noxious macroblocking. It's also possible that your TV settings need to be fine tuned.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

RasputinAXP said:


> ...
> 
> Is it possible your TV or AVR is resampling again along the line? That could cause some noxious macroblocking. It's also possible that your TV settings need to be fine tuned.


I was going to mention this. Did you use the same input on the TV that has probably been tweaked by you?


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## klang (Oct 14, 2003)

Two thoughts:

Previous threads here have said it can take 2 to 3 days for all the software to download to the 922. It might not be done yet.

Try a different HDMI cable. You are using HDMI?


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

Hoosier205 said:


> Sad to say, but no there isn't much that can be done about that on your end. That's just Dish Network's way of operating. Some people care and some don't.


Unfortunately, we do care (and I wish we frankly didn't), but like you say, we get the feeling that there might not be much of anything that can be done about it. And now that we've signed up for a 2-year stint with Dish, we're pretty much stuck.

Anyway, I hope we weren't being naive about all of this, but we never even considered that there would be much noticeable difference in picture quality between Dish and DirecTV (whether HD or SD), so that aspect never even played any role in our decision to make the move. We do however wonder if we had known about the outcome up-front, would we have switched? In other words, if we would have been able to know before the fact that we would trade getting our locals back in reduced HD picture quality and with all of the rest of our HD channels reduced in PQ with Dish, for having our locals in SD with all of the rest of our HD channels in higher quality with DirecTV, would we have then made the switch? That's obviously conjecture after the fact, but it would be a tough decision.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

RasputinAXP said:


> Thing is, it's widely accepted (with the possible exception of some resolutiontrolls) that the SD on Dish is better than the SD on Direct. I'd think there's something up with the settings somewhere.


After getting into this, I have been running into the same comment on the Internet regarding SD being perceived as better on Dish as compared to Direct, so I don't know what to say about that. And I was paying a lot of attention to the new dish set-up and the installer's maximizing the signals, so I don't think anything went wrong with that aspect.



> Is it possible your TV or AVR is resampling again along the line? That could cause some noxious macroblocking. It's also possible that your TV settings need to be fine tuned.


I have a new AVR, but I haven't even put that into operation yet. Right now we are just straight through from the ViP 922 HD DVR to our HDTV (which was the same exact set-up as with our HR23NC-700 DirecTV Plus HD DVR). And we have a 42" Vizio SV421XVT HDTV and have never changed the basic factory default settings for either DirecTV or Dish programming material, so it's pretty much a head-to-head comparison. Beyond that, I don't think our TV is resampling, but I can't say for sure except to say that nothing has been changed settings-wise since making the switch.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

sigma1914 said:


> I was going to mention this. Did you use the same input on the TV that has probably been tweaked by you?


Yep, we maintained HDMI-1 as the same input for the new 922 DVR as the prior HR23NC-700 DVR (which was never tweaked for either).


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

DEC, I am telling you from years of experience, have had Dish almost since they first offered service. I have many friends with Direct TV. I think Direct TV is great, it would be my second choice so my following is in no way knock on Direct TV.

If you think the SD is worse with Dish, there is something wrong with your settings or installation. Period. SD is noticeably worse on Direct TV at every single friends house I go to, and they marvel when they come to my house.

As for HD. My eyes see virtually no difference. It is possible the picture is ever so slightly softer from Dish, but it is certainly not night and day difference. Again, you have to be having problems with the installation, or the settings on the box or your TV. I have a 48" LCD, which is actually larger than two of my friends have, and would show flaws more readily. Yet as mentioned the SD is much better, HD very much the same.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

klang said:


> Two thoughts:
> 
> Previous threads here have said it can take 2 to 3 days for all the software to download to the 922. It might not be done yet.


Well, I suppose that could be the case, but the installer said nothing about this and he stayed through all of the downloading that went on well before he left. I would love to think it's something this simple, so I guess I'll have to wait the 2-3 days to see if we experience any noticeable increase in picture quality.



> Try a different HDMI cable. You are using HDMI?


We are using HDMI, and we have some pretty decent quality HDMI cables from Belkin (not any el cheapo versions). I'll go ahead and wait the 3 days you suggest for full downloading of the 922 software before playing with the cables.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

DEC said:


> ...
> 
> We are using HDMI, and we have some pretty decent quality HDMI cables from Belkin (not any el cheapo versions). I'll go ahead and wait the 3 days you suggest for full downloading of the 922 software before playing with the cables.


Your cable is fine...HDMI either works or it doesn't.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

tampa8 said:


> DEC, I am telling you from years of experience, have had Dish almost since they first offered service. I have many friends with Direct TV. I think Direct TV is great, it would be my second choice so my following is in no way knock on Direct TV.
> 
> If you think the SD is worse with Dish, there is something wrong with your settings or installation. Period. SD is noticeably worse on Direct TV at every single friends house I go to, and they marvel when they come to my house.


Since I keep hearing this, maybe this is good news in that there is something going on with something which is adversely affecting both SD & HD PQ (that could conceivably be tweaked). However, one other thing I am wondering about, is that Dish apparently has a wider spot beam in our area than DirecTV does, but I believe we are still in the edge area of the spot beam since we are in the southeast corner of Utah ... and could this affect our overall SD & HD PQ? Or is this a matter of you either get good SD/HD PQ or nothing at all?



> As for HD. My eyes see virtually no difference. It is possible the picture is ever so slightly softer from Dish, but it is certainly not night and day difference. Again, you have to be having problems with the installation, or the settings on the box or your TV.


Well, from what we are seeing, "softer" would be an understatement. Although not at a totally gross level, we nevertheless see a fair amount of "mosquito noise", with shimmering blurs, "painting" effects, edge/halo effects, and general "grime" ... all summing up to reduced resolution and clarity. Don't get me wrong, it's still more HD than SD PQ, but it is a more dumbed-down version as compared to what we experienced with DirecTV.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

This might sound dumb - but I would check that your receiver is actually set to output 720p or 1080i on TV1 (TV2 will only be in 480i).


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

scooper said:


> This might sound dumb - but I would check that your receiver is actually set to output 720p or 1080i on TV1 (TV2 will only be in 480i).


We only have one TV, and the installer set the 922 to 1080i HD (and we have since gone back into the settings and confirmed the 1080i output setting).


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

DEC said:


> Or is this a matter of you either get good SD/HD PQ or nothing at all?


Exactly. Either you get it or you don't.



> Well, from what we are seeing, "softer" would be an understatement. Although not at a totally gross level, we nevertheless see a fair amount of "mosquito noise", with shimmering blurs, "painting" effects, edge/halo effects, and general "grime" ... all summing up to reduced resolution and clarity. Don't get me wrong, it's still more HD than SD PQ, but it is a more dumbed-down version as compared to what we experienced with DirecTV.


Just from that description there's something else up. I don't know what else it could be though. Quality of the coax? Anyone?


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## ruralruss (Feb 5, 2010)

_"Well, from what we are seeing, "softer" would be an understatement. Although not at a totally gross level, we nevertheless see a fair amount of "mosquito noise", with shimmering blurs, "painting" effects, edge/halo effects, and general "grime" ... all summing up to reduced resolution and clarity. Don't get me wrong, it's still more HD than SD PQ, but it is a more dumbed-down version as compared to what we experienced with DirecTV"_

There is definitely something wrong somewhere. I do not have the 922 but I am very picky about video and audio quality and my lowly 211K gives me an outstanding picture with none of the effects you mention.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

RasputinAXP said:


> Just from that description there's something else up. I don't know what else it could be though. Quality of the coax? Anyone?


OK, here's the deal on the coax.

When we first moved here in 1999, I installed a simple Dish system myself for our old RCA CRT TV. I used the run-of-the-mill coax of that time (which was a pretty short run into the front of our house where the TV was). This coax was reused when Dish came out in 2003 to install a second dish to try to help us retain our locals that we were intermittently losing due to a spot beam change in Utah. That only made things worse, so we switched to DirecTV for SD programming. The DirecTV installer tapped into my same old coax even though I suggested that it be changed out on general principle. Then when we moved up to HD programming with DirecTV in December 2009, that installer again tapped into my same old coax despite my more pointed suggestion that I thought it should be replaced with the new HD service in mind.

Now, with yesterday's installation, I didn't even need to press the issue with the Dish installer, he _WANTED_ to replace my old coax, which he did with all new Vextra coax, new fittings, and he even went so far as to replace my "white" low frequency coax through-the-wall connectors with new "blue" high-frequency connectors. He then finshed that portion of the job up with a new coax line from the wall jack to the back of the 922.

So, I have all new coax all the way from the HD dish to the back of the 922 (which again, is a pretty short run).


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

I wonder if I am on to something.

When the installer called into Dish yesterday afternoon to activate our account and receiver, they said that they didn't have us down for HD service and wondered about that since we had a 922 DVR. He responded that of course we were supposed to have HD and so they said that they would make that change. I even received a "Service Change Confirmation" email from Dish reflecting the HD service and our HD programming packages just before the installer left.

However, even though our 922 output is set to 1080i HD in the settings menu, what would happen if Dish didn't turn on our HD capabilities? I ask, as this is what I am seeing now that I am paying even more attention:

1) In the Guide, listed channels in the left column that are HD have a faint grayed-out "HD" in the background. However, all programming to the right (in terms of individual program schedules), simply have a title, but no HD after them on the HD channels. Maybe this is a difference between Dish & DirecTV, but with DirecTV, an HD designation would also appear in the program title as well (assuming it was in HD and not SD). Is that the same for Dish HD programming in the Guide, or don't they reflect a second HD in the programming title itself?

2) When I tune to an obvious HD channel, with HD programming, I initially get a "Stretch" indicator in the upper right corner of the TV screen. From what the installer said, this is an indication of a SD program that gets stretched to full screen size due to the over-riding 1080i resolution selection in the settings. However, I also understood that when we tune to an HD broadcast, that we won't see the "Stretch" indicator, as the aspect ratio and 1080i resolution is then properly matched to the HDTV screen size. If that is true, then this may be another indication that Dish does not have our HD turned on from their end. 

Is there some other definitive way for me to tell if we are actually receiving HD programming from Dish from my end?

Anyway, I have a call into the Frontier rep who set up my bundled Dish account (with Dish), and I also have a call into the installer to check with Dish to see whether this is the basis for our picture quality issues (at least with the HD portion).

On edit ... I also have sent a PM to Mary Catherine Brady from the Dish Internet Response Team who posted a bit earlier in this thread.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Hit your * key on your remote. You shouldn't be seeing "Stretch" on a native HD channel. If you didn't have HD service your HD channels would be red.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

OK, the installer just called me back and I think we've been able to positively confirm that I do indeed have HD from Dish.

First off, he said that if we didn't have HD, that we couldn't even see any HD channels in the left hand column in the Guide as they just wouldn't be there at all as a selection. Second, that Dish does not have an "HD" designator after a program title in the Guide (except for some PPV movies), so that's no issue.

He also had me toggle the "star" (aka "Format") button on the number pad of the remote so the "Stretch" mode got changed to "Normal" on CNN HD, so that when the live program came on after some advertisements, it filled the screen with no more "Stretch" indicators. However, the picture quality still didn't appear to be up to the HD quality we were seeing from DirecTV IMO.

He then had me go to channel 5710, which is supposedly an HD test channel (although it seemed to have more advertisements and other programming on it than I would have figured for a test channel). Anyway, I guess the value of it was that it was supposed to be exclusively in 1080i. Some of the material looked pretty good in terms of picture quality, but now in the daylight (as we have a pretty "bright" living room during the day), this was not the best environment for careful visual viewing of picture quality.

Anyway, I mentioned that someone had indicated that it might take a couple of days for all the software to download from Dish into our 922, so we agreed for me to take a wait & see approach over the next couple of days to see how things go and whether the HD & SD picture quality improves. If it doesn't, the installer indicated that he might have Dish send out another 922 DVR to see is that improves things.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

DEC said:


> OK, the installer just called me back and I think we've been able to positively confirm that I do indeed have HD from Dish.
> 
> First off, he said that if we didn't have HD, that we couldn't even see any HD channels in the left hand column in the Guide as they just wouldn't be there at all as a selection. Second, that Dish does not have an "HD" designator after a program title in the Guide (except for some PPV movies), so that's no issue.
> 
> ...


I wish you the best of luck, but the HD picture quality isn't going to improve in the next few days.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

Hoosier205 said:


> I wish you the best of luck, but the HD picture quality isn't going to improve in the next few days.


I hate to admit it, but you are probably right. I just want to work through this giving every reasonable possibility a chance before getting a new 922 (which I am also not sure what that would do in the final analysis, unless there is truly something wrong with our current 922). It may well turn out to be a case of "it is what it is" and we'll just have to live with the picture quality issues as they are.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Everyone with Dish, please poke your eyes out. You're unworthy to see what Hoosier does with his remarkable 4D eyes.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

RasputinAXP said:



> Everyone with Dish, please poke your eyes out.


Hey, that's an excellent suggestion, as I am sure that would solve our picture quality issues once and for all. :grin:


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

"Although not at a totally gross level, we nevertheless see a fair amount of "mosquito noise", with shimmering blurs, "painting" effects, edge/halo effects, and general "grime" ... all summing up to reduced resolution and clarity."

This above all tells us all you have something wrong. You can't think we would all just put up with that kind of picture! I wish I could tell you a new 922 would fix the problem, but I am not really convinced of that. 

Signal strength or being on the edge of the spotbeam makes no difference. And if you see a channel that says HD then it is an HD channel, nothing else would need to be turned on.

I'm not sure I saw if you actually have made sure the box is set to 1080I, and if you tried a different HDMI cable. Also, have you tried a different HDMI input on the TV. Just because it worked before means nothing. There are plenty of posts in AV forums of compatibility problems with HDMI cables, and inputs being damaged causing "smearing." I hope something helps! I am not familiar with the 922 so don't know if there is some other setting that needs to be done, but I doubt it. Just that it is set to 1080I. (or try 720P for the heck of it)


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

tampa8 said:


> ...
> 
> I'm not sure I saw if you actually have made sure the box is set to 1080I, and if you tried a different HDMI cable. Also, have you tried a different HDMI input on the TV. Just because it worked before means nothing. There are plenty of posts in AV forums of compatibility problems with HDMI cables, and inputs being damaged causing "smearing." I hope something helps! I am not familiar with the 922 so don't know if there is some other setting that needs to be done, but I doubt it. Just that it is set to 1080I. (or try 720P for the heck of it)


Different HDMI cables will not make a bit of difference...1s and 0s are the same on a $199 cable or a $5 cable.


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## neomaine (Feb 3, 2003)

Dec,

I'm not familiar with Vizio, does it have a 'dot for dot' or 'full' picture mode to eliminate any overscan?

I know you haven't modified the TV settings, but this may be helpfull. If your receiver is set to 1080i, then there's no (good) reason to distort your screen.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

tampa8 said:


> "Although not at a totally gross level, we nevertheless see a fair amount of "mosquito noise", with shimmering blurs, "painting" effects, edge/halo effects, and general "grime" ... all summing up to reduced resolution and clarity."
> 
> This above all tells us all you have something wrong. You can't think we would all just put up with that kind of picture! I wish I could tell you a new 922 would fix the problem, but I am not really convinced of that.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've mentioned a couple of times that the installer went into settings and put us at 1080i HD, and I have since checked that again probably three more times at least. Also, during the call back this morning from the installer he also had me recheck it again, as well as going into the diagnostic screen to look at it from another direction.

I can certainly switch to another HDMI input on our HDTV, as well as using a different cable, and I can even switch to the second new coax cable coming in from the dish for that matter.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

neomaine said:


> Dec,
> 
> I'm not familiar with Vizio, does it have a 'dot for dot' or 'full' picture mode to eliminate any overscan?
> 
> I know you haven't modified the TV settings, but this may be helpfull. If your receiver is set to 1080i, then there's no (good) reason to distort your screen.


I don't honestly know about the "dot for dot" or "full picture mode" capabilities of my Vizio. I will check out the manual to see what I can find about that. (And the 922 DVR and my HDTV are both set to 1080i).


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

It's not a problem with OP's receiver or display.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

sigma1914 said:


> Different HDMI cables will not make a bit of difference...1s and 0s are the same on a $199 cable or a $5 cable.


What I am saying has nothing to with the cost or being a brand name. I know what I am talking about on this issue. My LG came with an insert stating a known compatibility problem with my TV and Tartan cables. Exactly what I had. Well it worked perfectly. That is until I tried to order a PPV. Said I had to use HDMI to order. I remembered the insert, tried a different cable, and no problems. I have seen in AV forums the suggestion to first try a different brand of HDMI cable if having problems even if they worked in another application.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/blu-ray-players-recorders/105042-sony-blu-ray-bdp-s360.html


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

tampa8 said:


> What I am saying has nothing to with the cost or being a brand name. I know what I am talking about on this issue. My LG came with an insert stating a known compatibility problem with my TV and Tartan cables. Exactly what I had. Well it worked perfectly. That is until I tried to order a PPV. Said I had to use HDMI to order. I remembered the insert, tried a different cable, and no problems. I have seen in AV forums the suggestion to first try a different brand of HDMI cable if having problems even if they worked in another application.
> 
> http://forum.blu-ray.com/blu-ray-players-recorders/105042-sony-blu-ray-bdp-s360.html


Those are compatibility issues...We're talking PQ issues.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

sigma1914 said:


> Those are compatibility issues...We're talking PQ issues.


Well if your advice is to not even try a different HDMI cable, that is bad advice. I am giving an option to try that is not altogether out of the question. You can argue theories all day long. But actually trying it will give the final answer. Of course I can't say that will definitely be it, by why rule it out without not even trying it? I don't buy your assumption that non compatibility does not mean possible PQ problems.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Hoosier205 said:


> It's not a problem with OP's receiver or display.


You say that, except we've already uncovered that he was viewing HD in Stretch mode, not Native. There are likely other issues that we're trying to figure out, and you're not contributing. You're just saying RARR PQ without acknowledging that the OP's description is not indicative of Dish's actual PQ.

Pretty please, with sugar on top, shut up if you're not going to be constructive in your comments.


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## adkinsjm (Mar 25, 2003)

RasputinAXP said:


> You say that, except we've already uncovered that he was viewing HD in Stretch mode, not Native. There are likely other issues that we're trying to figure out, and you're not contributing. You're just saying RARR PQ without acknowledging that the OP's description is not indicative of Dish's actual PQ.
> 
> Pretty please, with sugar on top, shut up if you're not going to be constructive in your comments.


That's not the issue since the OP didn't like the quality on an HD test channel.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Hoosier likes to come in and say that regardless of anything, it's not going to help. He said:


> It's not a problem with OP's receiver or display.


Except it was. Muddy smearing, "shimmering blurs, "painting" effects, edge/halo effects, and general "grime"" is not what Dish's HD looks like.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

adkinsjm said:


> That's not the issue since the OP didn't like the quality on an HD test channel.


The "HD Test Channel" is simply a free version of HD Theatre. Nothing special. Tuning to that channel does not magically fix problems with the settings on the receiver or wiring.

If one wants a better test they should record the HD Net test on Saturday morning (6am-6:10am this coming Saturday - channel 362 on DISH). One can see if they have a calibrated picture or not.


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## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

TV's vary.

I have to keep my Dynex at "Wide" mode for the 1920x1080i from the 722k to fill the screen when the 722k is in "Normal". The modulated TV2 output has to have the TV at "Normal".

I just looked at all the OTA channels I get using the TV's tuner. I saw resolutions from HD 1920x1080p to SD 704x480. I saw some of them with black bars on the sides and even some with bars all around. But all digital signals displayed the correct aspect ratio with the TV in wide mode. That is they did not look "stretched" or "compressed".

The only images that view correctly with the TV in "Normal" mode are the analog modulated ones on TV2. This would seem to be the fault of the TV.


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## MattScahum (Oct 27, 2010)

Short of being a receiver issue, since the tech did say he might have E* send out a new receiver to replace that, I am going to agree with the OP that the PQ they are seeing is something that you have to get used to.
Changing the HDMI will do nothing and honestly isn't worth the hassle. As has been stated already, it works or it doesn't. The PPV ordering issue that was mentioned before is not the same as what the OP is getting.
PQ is a perception thing. Everyones eyes are different. Personally I've seen both companies HD offerings on the same model tv with equal settings. Aside from some "minor" differences in crispness, and I mean really minor, the D* and E* HD has always looked the same to be.
As long as the OP's needs are met, which sounds like they are even though PQ is slightly disappointing, I don't see what the big issue is.


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## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

I have had BOTH Dish and DirecTV over the years. 

Switch several times. Dish, Direct, Dish, and now Direct

Each time it was a MUST to adjust both the Brightness and Contrast on the TV
I found that the Dish HD channels where more soft untill adjusted. I had to do this even with HDMI or DVI

Each time I used the 
"HD Net test on Saturday morning (6am-6:10am this coming Saturday" -which is on Both Dish and Directv.

They key seems to be the brightness with DirecTV.
With Dish it was the Contrast setting.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

DEC,

Is it possible D* looked just as bad but you didn't notice? I say this because my cheap LCD introduces a lot of the compression artifacts you describe on all sources. My good tv (LCOS) does not. If you have OTA, you can easily compare it to Dish and see if there is a difference. When I do this myself on my good tv, I see virtually no difference and none of the compression artifacts you describe. On my cheap tv, I see mosquito noise, etc. on all sources, just as I did with DirecTV.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

OK, for what it's worth, here is something of a final verdict after my wife and I have done quite a bit more program watching and tweaking with our new Dish HD service.

Before I get into this, let me say the following:

- We were actually quite satisfied with DirecTV, right up until they permanently took our HD locals away on April 4th.

- The only driving reason for us switching to Dish was to get our HD locals back, and without really thinking much about it, I suppose we assumed that most of the HD and SD programming on Dish would essentially be equivalent to that of DirecTV in terms of picture quality.

- I am not really into brand wars, and I have nothing against Dish or people who prefer Dish over DirecTV for whatever reasons.

That said, we spent several more hours on Wednesday & Thursday night critically viewing a LOT of channels and different programs, in both HD & SD. I also went with another (new) Belkin HDMI cable from the 922 DVR to our Vizio HDTV and it made no difference in PQ. I also switched from HDMI1 to HDMI2 as the input on the Vizio for the 922 DVR and that made no difference. I even went as far as to switch to the second new coax cable coming in from the dish and that also made no difference in PQ.

We also tried numerous settings both in the 922 DVR as well as our Vizio HDTV. This included changing picture aspect ratios, resolution, brightness, contrast, sharpness, etc. etc. ... sometimes individually and other times in combination.

Now, I will openly admit that the initial glitch of having "stretch" on for our Tuesday night viewing didn't help matters, and when we (for the most part) subsequently went with "normal", some PQ improvement was noted. But the bottom-line is this ... we remain convinced that on average, HD programming on DirecTV was "better" than what we have been seeing on Dish from a clarity, definition, and resolution perspective. And in terms of SD, other than a couple of isolated instances, we saw no across the board situation where SD programming PQ on Dish blew away what we would typically see on DirecTV, like so many folks here have rather unequivocally stated was the case. In fact there were a couple of examples where the SD PQ on Dish was absolutely off the wall bad. At best, I would say that on average, DirecTV and Dish SD programming were on a par with one another from what we saw with our set up.

It is true that there is a lot of variability between channels and individual programs. Some HD programming is "better" than other HD programming, and the same can be said for SD as well. We did find a few channels (one being TNT HD with a basketball playoff game), where the HD picture was crystal clear, highly resolved, crisp, and just downright excellent. In this regard, it was like a lot of HD channels we previously had on DirecTV, so if anything, that took the 922 out of the equation in terms of questioning whether we had a bum unit (which we really didn't feel was the case from the beginning).

In any regard, as an interim "report card", here is how we would grade Dish in comparison to DirecTV by way of Pros & Cons:

*PROS:*
- We have our HD locals back!

- The ViP 922 is an absolute gem of an HD DVR with an excellent user interface and functions galore. It's clearly a big advance over the HR23NC-700 DirecTV Plus HD DVR we previously had.

- The speed of the remote in terms of scrolling through the Guide, changing channels, and addressing other functions is lightning fast compared to DirecTV (the latter of which could be glacially slow quite often).

- Both the Sirius and Dish music channels are so much better than the lame SonicTap stations on DirecTV. We really like the sound quality as compared to the over-compressed and tinny sound of SonicTap.

- Overall, there seems to be quite a few more channels on Dish as compared to DirecTV for essentially the same package.

- We can't say enough positive things about the Dish installer. He was professional, knowledgeable, thorough, and friendly. Probably the best installer we have ever dealt with over the years.

*CONS:*
- Although this is no doubt subjective and others might disagree, we feel that on average, Dish HD doesn't quite come up to what DirecTV provides in terms of overall PQ. Some folks have referred to it as "soft" when compared to DirecTV; we would say in some isolated instances that it worse than just soft. YMMV

- The outside hardware (especially the dish mount and LNB arm) are quite a bit more flimsy than DirecTV's hardware (it appears to be thinner gauge). We hope this will hold up to our often high winds here without excessively vibrating or moving around too much.

So, in summary, we are just going to live with our switching to Dish decision. We may be a bit disappointed with some PQ issues, but there are a lot of positives as well, most important of which is getting our HD locals back.

In the meantime, as suggested, we will record the HD Net test on Saturday morning on channel 362 to see if we have a calibrated picture or not.

I want to thank everyone for the valuable and helpful input.

Don


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

DEC said:


> ...
> 
> I want to thank everyone for the valuable and helpful input.
> 
> Don


And thank you for being a level headed class act through it all. You were not ridiculous in your comments and never portrayed an entitlement attitude through your locals issue. I hope to see you around more and hope others will learn from your topics how to deal with an issue and receive help.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Don, good postings and followups. Glad you made them, and it was interesting.

There is a difference between D* and E* in HD although I don't find it to be much, others disagree. What I can say is that over time, you won't even remember the differences I suspect. I've had both, and for a short time had both at the same time, so I got to see the differences doing a direct at-the-same-time comparison.

I switched from D* to E* because of the equipment. I was very disappointed in the sluggishness of the HR20/21 that seemed to get worse instead of better with each update.

I know you will enjoy the 922. Welcome to Dish!


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

lparsons21 said:


> There is a difference between D* and E* in HD although I don't find it to be much, others disagree. What I can say is that over time, you won't even remember the differences I suspect.


I completely agree, and it was one of the reasons I wanted to back-off for a couple of days and just continue to watch the programming (although we admittedly did quite a bit of tweaking during that time). Time often has a way of leveling things out, so I believe our ability to make the comparison in our mind's-eye will fade and it will be fine. And as I also said to my wife last night, if we had never had any HD before to make comparisons against, the HD presentation through our new Dish set up would no doubt have been very impressive to us after so many years of SD only.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

DEC said:


> - The outside hardware (especially the dish mount and LNB arm) are quite a bit more flimsy than DirecTV's hardware (it appears to be thinner gauge). We hope this will hold up to our often high winds here without excessively vibrating or moving around too much.


Are you able to see the mast foot easily? It should be stamped with a "W 4" stamp near the bottom of the foot. This indicates a mast and foot that are made with heavier-gauge steel than the older masts designed for smaller, lighter dishes. Dish requires the W4 mast to be used for the 1000.4 dish, though some techs will slap them on anything. If that's the case, you should call Dish and have the mast replaced.

The W4 mast (also referred to as the "short" mast; there is a "long" mast that is also approved, but it comes with, and is required to use, two support arms) is more than strong enough for the 1000.4 dish.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

BattleZone said:


> DEC said:
> 
> 
> > - The outside hardware (especially the dish mount and LNB arm) are quite a bit more flimsy than DirecTV's hardware (it appears to be thinner gauge). We hope this will hold up to our often high winds here without excessively vibrating or moving around too much.
> ...


I had heard elsewhere that my current DirecTV HD mast was too big in diameter for the 1000.4 dish to fit on it, and that the installer would have to install a new, smaller diameter Dish mast (which I was trying to keep away from, as the DirecTV HD mast was very heavy duty and well-mounted, and I was trying to keep that many more holes from being punched into the front of our house).

So, thinking that was going to be the only route to go, I was subsequently very glad to hear from the installer when he got here last Tuesday that he had an adapter to re-use my DirecTV HD mast and that the 1000.4 dish would fit on it just fine. Anyway, I got busy doing other things, but when I finally took a look at the adapter he used, I have to admit that I was disappointed. Instead of it being some kind of sleeve that either would slip over or slip inside the DirecTV HD mast pipe, it had a slot cut in it with two jam bolts and it basically hung off the front lip of the DirecTV HD mast pipe. I'm not saying this won't work, but it just strikes me as not as structurally strong as an OD or ID sleeve more positively fitting respectively outside or inside the DirecTV HD mast pipe.

Here are a couple of shots of what we ended up with:

New 1000.4 dish on our old DirecTV HD mast:









Close-up of new split sleeve adapter:









I used to be able to grab the LNB arm on our old DirecTV HD set-up and gently try to wiggle it back & forth and it was essentially rock solid. However, when I do the same to the LNB arm on the new Dish set-up, the arm just sloppily moves back & forth and gets the actual dish vibrating. At 7000 feet in elevation on a wide open mountain slope, we get some big time winds around here on a regular basis and my concern is that something is going to get shaken loose or out of adjustment somewhere down the road.


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## Matt9876 (Oct 11, 2007)

That pipe clamp adapter is durable,I would loosen the lock nuts and run the bolts in another full turn each and re lock them.

I would have insisted on the installer leaving the normal arm and braces just in case the mount clamp failed.

I would double check the tightness of all the clamping blots in both assembly's old and new.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

Matt9876 said:


> That pipe clamp adapter is durable,I would loosen the lock nuts and run the bolts in another full turn each and re lock them.


I will do that, however, what I'd really like to do first is cut my old DirecTV HD mast pipe down a bit (about where the yellow arrrow is):









I'd like to do this, as the 1000.4 dish is sitting up quite a bit higher than the DirecTV HD dish was and the upper lip of the new dish is under my eave as well as a small portion of my aluminum rain gutter (which probably isn't an ideal situation ... although the Dish installer thought it was OK and got acceptable signal strengths).



> I would have insisted on the installer leaving the normal arm and braces just in case the mount clamp failed.


Yeah, that probably would have been a good idea, but it's too late now. (Due to our remote location, the nearest Dish installer had to travel 200+ miles over a 4+ hour round trip).



> I would double check the tightness of all the clamping blots in both assembly's old and new.


I believe the installer did that just before he left, but I'll double check everything.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Using a pipe adapter on a DirecTV mast is a violation of installation rules and can result in a full chargeback to the installer if caught. I'm guessing the installer is betting that no one will go all the way out to where you are to inspect his work. I see a couple of other code violations as well.

You really should have let the installer install the proper mast.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

BattleZone said:


> Using a pipe adapter on a DirecTV mast is a violation of installation rules and can result in a full chargeback to the installer if caught.


There's no way I would know that. If it's such a big deal, then the Dish installer should have said something as far as I am concerned.



> I'm guessing the installer is betting that no one will go all the way out to where you are to inspect his work.


The Dish installer stuck me as a professional and straightforward guy. Beyond that, I've never had anyone from Dish (after 2 prior installations) or DirecTV (after 2 installations) ever come out here for post-installation inspections.



> I see a couple of other code violations as well.


What are you specifically referring to?



> You really should have let the installer install the proper mast.


That is a mis-charcterization there my friend. As I previously mentioned, I was already prepared for the Dish installer to put in the smaller diameter Dish mast before he even got here. However, when he first saw the DirecTV mast and I mentioned that I had heard that the 1000.4 dish wouldn't fit on the larger diameter mast, he said "no problem" and then described the adapter he had for just that purpose. So this situation had nothing whatsoever to do with my preventing or otherwise dissuading the Dish installer from installing the proper equipment.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

DEC said:


> There's no way I would know that. If it's such a big deal, then the Dish installer should have said something as far as I am concerned.
> 
> The Dish installer stuck me as a professional and straightforward guy. Beyond that, I've never had anyone from Dish (after 2 prior installations) or DirecTV (after 2 installations) ever come out here for post-installation inspections.
> 
> ...


 All installer's normally give the phone number of the install company they work for.They also should say if there is any problems to call them first plus they normally should tell you there is a time limit to call them for any problems.

I would call them immediately and tell them this install is unsatisfactory to you and to fix it.Good Luck!

P.S. Normally during the time limit the installer gives if you have to call them back out there is no charge.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

Jhon69 said:


> All installer's normally give the phone number of the install company they work for.They also should say if there is any problems to call them first plus they normally should tell you there is a time limit to call them for any problems.


As far as I know, the installer worked for Dish with a Dish-logo truck, so I only have his phone number and not of the "install company" (which again, I assume is Dish). Again, this is an extremely remote and rural area, so installers of any type are very few and far between.



> I would call them immediately and tell them this install is unsatisfactory to you and to fix it.Good Luck!


I must have given the wrong impression. The installer was really great and went the extra mile for us. While I was not initially thrilled with the mast adapter piece that got used, that is really the only concern I had with the installation. Beyond that, I have no intention of getting this guy into trouble by overtly complaining about his install after-the-fact.



> P.S. Normally during the time limit the installer gives if you have to call them back out there is no charge.


Understood, but I am not going to be calling anyone about the install. Our main issue with switching to Dish was the perceived loss in HD PQ over DirecTV, not the install.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

DEC said:


> I had heard elsewhere that my current DirecTV HD mast was too big in diameter for the 1000.4 dish to fit on it, and that the installer would have to install a new, smaller diameter Dish mast (which I was trying to keep away from, as the DirecTV HD mast was very heavy duty and well-mounted, and I was trying to keep that many more holes from being punched into the front of our house).
> 
> So, thinking that was going to be the only route to go, I was subsequently very glad to hear from the installer when he got here last Tuesday that he had an adapter to re-use my DirecTV HD mast and that the 1000.4 dish would fit on it just fine. Anyway, I got busy doing other things, but when I finally took a look at the adapter he used, I have to admit that I was disappointed. Instead of it being some kind of sleeve that either would slip over or slip inside the DirecTV HD mast pipe, it had a slot cut in it with two jam bolts and it basically hung off the front lip of the DirecTV HD mast pipe. I'm not saying this won't work, but it just strikes me as not as structurally strong as an OD or ID sleeve more positively fitting respectively outside or inside the DirecTV HD mast pipe.
> 
> ...


When I see this picture the only thing that comes in my mind is "What the heck is this crap"!.If this install was done at my place I would not have signed the contract!.

I'm really surprised the installer just didn't use a wire tie and attach the dish to the gutter of the residence.:nono2:

It's just so hard to change out the mounting pole in the saddle.:nono2:


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

To be fair, Dish at one time *did* allow the use of pipe adapters on existing Ka/Ku masts, but that was before the 1000.4 dish was released. The 1000.4 is larger, heavier, and has higher wind-loading, so Dish de-authorized pipe adapters except for adapting existing 2" or larger pole mounts (poles cemented into the ground), and requires one of two specified mounts for the 1000.4.

Those are:

- The "tall" mast, which is really the exact same mast that comes with the Dish "Plus" international dishes. The mast itself looks like a taller/longer version of a regular mast, but it is made with heavier-gauge steel, and it comes with two support arms, which are required to be used.










- The 1000.4 "short mast", which is about 1" longer than a standard Dish 500 mast, but is also made of heavier-gauge steel, and is stamped "W 4" on the mast foot. The W4 mast does not come with or require support arms.

Other issues: the mast foot is required to have 6 bolts, including all 4 corners. This (DirecTV) mast only has 4. BTW, DirecTV also requires all 6 bolts. And the installer used an approved dual ground lug to ground with, but he installed it on the adjustment groove of the mast foot, which is a violation of NEC code and is an instant QC fail for Dish.

Don't get me wrong, the guy did some pretty neat work, but he either isn't properly trained or he figures you're too far out in the sticks for him to get caught. I'm guessing the DirecTV installer was the same way.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

DEC said:


> As far as I know, the installer worked for Dish with a Dish-logo truck, so I only have his phone number and not of the "install company" (which again, I assume is Dish). Again, this is an extremely remote and rural area, so installers of any type are very few and far between.
> 
> I must have given the wrong impression. The installer was really great and went the extra mile for us. While I was not initially thrilled with the mast adapter piece that got used, that is really the only concern I had with the installation. Beyond that, I have no intention of getting this guy into trouble by overtly complaining about his install after-the-fact.
> 
> Understood, but I am not going to be calling anyone about the install. Our main issue with switching to Dish was the perceived loss in HD PQ over DirecTV, not the install.


Well the way that install looks you will be watching an HD channel and when it starts to rain or snow or just having those type of clouds over your satellite dish if you don't lose your signal it will definitely be a surprise because it looks like the home is cutting off at least half of your signal receiving ability of your satellite dish.One thing for sure when it rains you will definitely find out.Good Luck!


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

I think my thread took a bit of a detour at the end here.

My focus has primarily been on PQ issues and not so much on the dish hardware installation. And while I suppose I could be wrong, my gut tells me that the PQ issues have little or nothing to do with the dish or mast outside. I am not trying to be flippant, but my wife and I don't pull the lawn chairs out to sit in front of our house to look at the dish or the installation of same. We are frankly more interested and concerned about what we see on our HDTV as the final "product" coming from a satellite provider and into our home.

Whether some feel that the installation was a fail or at least botched, or that the Dish installer was a hack, cut corners, or simply failed to do his job ... you are certainly entitled to your opinions and I don't think anything I can say is going to sway those strongly held feelings. 

True, I was not particularly impressed with the adapter piece, and I was a bit worried with the height of the new dish in relation to the edge of my eave and aluminum gutter, but I was actually even less impressed with new lighter gauge LNB arm from the Dish 1000.4 set-up (and this had nothing to do with the DirecTV mast as I saw no flexing below the new dish assembly ... which are all new Dish 1000.4 components, and not DirecTV components).

As far as the height of the new dish, I may still cut down the DirecTV mast a bit as I indicated in an earlier post, but we had a pretty good test two days ago where we got into a very intense spring snow storm, where we got 6" of snow in blizzard/white-out conditions over several hours of high winds and very stormy weather and we never once had any signal loss issues, any pixelation, or any other perceptible problems relating to signal.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

DEC said:


> I think my thread took a bit of a detour at the end here.


I appreciate that you haven't lost sight of the issue given the search for a scapegoat.

I guess the best way to figure out what is going on would be to find someone else with DISH and a similar viewing setup and see if their PQ is similar to yours.

I would advise against dropping anchor on the calibration of the TV. DIRECTV is typically considered relatively gamma and chroma heavy and it may pay dividends to tinker with some of the basic settings to see if you can dial in a more pleasing picture. At this point, you're in it for another two dozen months and it isn't going to make anyone happy to spend the whole time suffering on principle.


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

harsh said:


> I would advise against dropping anchor on the calibration of the TV. DIRECTV is typically considered relatively gamma and chroma heavy and it may pay dividends to tinker with some of the basic settings to see if you can dial in a more pleasing picture. At this point, you're in it for another two dozen months and it isn't going to make anyone happy to spend the whole time suffering on principle.


We actually have made a LOT of adjustments on our HDTV (and I also went through the HD Net test). We are certainly willing to even make more adjustments as needed. That said, we still feel that on average, HD PQ on DirecTV was perceptively a cut above what we typically see with Dish. As such it's certainly not the end of the world, and we will likely slowly get used to the difference over time.

So, we don't plan on "suffering" or continuing to whine about this over an extended period of time, it really just comes down to "it is what it is" and we'll get over it as best as we can.

Thanks


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## DEC (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, I guess my concerns about the adapter piece that the installer used back in April to adapt the new Dish Turbo HD dish assembly to my prior DirecTV mast were well founded (as well as some of the other installers who posted to this thread).

I just discovered this a bit earlier today ...









As you can see, the adapter is cracked almost half way around. If it were to crack all the way, the entire dish assembly would basically fall off.

I called the original installer and he had me call Dish to set up a repair appointment (which is for this Wednesday). The installer said he would likely put up the appropriate Dish mast and get rid of the adapter.


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