# How long to return the R15 to Value Electronics?



## mvaneps (Nov 19, 2005)

Does anyone know how long value electronics will give you to return the R15? Me and particularly my wife are really starting to hate this DVR. Every night there is something new that either doesn't work or just plain sucks. I am thinking an R10 would be a better way to go. The way the recording works is virtually unbearable. If you move shows like CSI that are heavily into syndication up on the priority list to catch the new, first run shows on the networks you end up with all the syndicated shows causing conflicts. Today the freakin' remote would only respond when it felt like it. You could FF and not be able to stop it, you could use the 8 second REW arrow and it would go to the start of the show. This thing is C R A P and I feel sort of optimistic that DTV will work all the kinks out but there are so many that I feel like it will be a loooooong time before it gets me back to the reliability of that ancient UTV box I have. Damn, what a disappointment...


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## 01ds650 (Nov 20, 2005)

30 days, I called Direct & told them this new R15 a sad box & they said they would let me return it to them for up to 90 days if it stills sucks then. I thought about getting a feel from VE to see if they have the confidence to match that.


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## vlj9r (Nov 23, 2005)

If this is the best Directv can do, we are in serious trouble. The R-15 is loaded with bugs. Trying to get out or FF or REW is an adventure by itself. The first run option is useless, just like their tech support. I have yet to come in contact with a CSR that is knowledgeable on the R15.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

OK is it just me? You had to be teh first on the blocks to own them, then all you do is ***** and moan about them having bugs. Most of you saw this with the Directivo's as well, did you go braindead and think there were not going to be any bugs with a brand new DVR rollout? Any of you looked at the E* DVR track record?


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## LockMD (Nov 16, 2005)

Well I guess if it was my only DVR I would not be happy, since I do have an R10, I will keep my R15 just not have it doing the most of the work. I'm happy with both. Yeah the R15 has some growing to do, being so new to these things so do I.  


Sorry to hear you guys are so upset with it.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> OK is it just me? You had to be teh first on the blocks to own them, then all you do is ***** and moan about them having bugs. Most of you saw this with the Directivo's as well, did you go braindead and think there were not going to be any bugs with a brand new DVR rollout? Any of you looked at the E* DVR track record?


Selective memory is what I like to call it 

DirecTV does seriously need to step up to the plate and get many of these things fixed though. I'm not going to return mine as of yet, but i'm not happy about the First Run and some other issues.

I think most of this falls on bad testing in the past and a rush to hit the holiday season.


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## mvaneps (Nov 19, 2005)

If I am paying the same price for DTV's product as I would be for an established product than hell yeah I expect it to be as good. Further more, I feel like DTV is FORCING me to go their direction. Perhaps I am the exception around here but I had a UTV unit that finally failed, kapoot, gone. I NEEDED to buy something new. So I have a choice, put my money into something that DTV is clearly moving away from which would likely put me in the same, unsupported boat as the UTV I have had for years? Not only are they moving away from Tivo but they are actually designing features for their service that won't work on Tivo. Or do I get their own shiny new box that they are showing in all the commercials. What would you do? I think they have basic flaws which to me are inexcusable. Freezes and skips, frequent crashes, poor design of the series records. Where is DTV now? If they supposedly have some interest in what is being said on this and other boards then where are they? How simple would it be to say ' we hear you and we are working on it'? If you call the CSR's or even ADVANCED TECH SUPPORT they don't know anything about this box. That to me is inexcusable as well. Meanwhile, Comcast gives out free HD boxes. If they only had a bigger harddrive on the HD box at Comcast I would be kissing DTV goodbye.


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## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

mvaneps said:


> If I am paying the same price for DTV's product as I would be for an established product than hell yeah I expect it to be as good. Further more, I feel like DTV is FORCING me to go their direction. Perhaps I am the exception around here but I had a UTV unit that finally failed, kapoot, gone. I NEEDED to buy something new. So I have a choice, put my money into something that DTV is clearly moving away from which would likely put me in the same, unsupported boat as the UTV I have had for years? Not only are they moving away from Tivo but they are actually designing features for their service that won't work on Tivo. Or do I get their own shiny new box that they are showing in all the commercials. What would you do? I think they have basic flaws which to me are inexcusable. Freezes and skips, frequent crashes, poor design of the series records. Where is DTV now? If they supposedly have some interest in what is being said on this and other boards then where are they? How simple would it be to say ' we hear you and we are working on it'? If you call the CSR's or even ADVANCED TECH SUPPORT they don't know anything about this box. That to me is inexcusable as well. Meanwhile, Comcast gives out free HD boxes. If they only had a bigger harddrive on the HD box at Comcast I would be kissing DTV goodbye.


Although there will no longer be any new DTivo models coming out, and they will eventually discontinue their partnership, TIVOs will be supported by Dtv for a very long time, if not forever (basically as long as any DTivos are still running and activated). And the concern about them not getting any upgrades is irrelevant for the most part. The R10, for example, is already a very stable TIVO (I have an R10 and an R15).

Therefore, if the R15 is your only DVR, I suggest you send it back and pickup an R10 (it's the same price and rebate). Run the R10 at least until Dtv is able to provide sufficient updates to the R15 so that it is a stable box with the necessary features.

My R15 is my secondary DVR. I don't recommend that most people by the R15 as their primary DVR yet. That's why I say that if you want to have an R15 early, you should consider yourself a beta tester. It is a work in progress. I think it's a waste of time to jump in early with the R15 and then complain about it. By now, it's well-known that it has certain deficiencies. If you do choose to own an R15 (as I have), I think our efforts are best spent compiling suggestions for enhancements and bug fixes (see the sticky thread labeled as such).

While I don't disagree that Dtv probably rushed this to market and it's not usually a good idea to launch a product with so many flaws, I do disagree that you're being forced to own one. As I stated earlier, you should feel free to buy a DTivo and be comfortable that you'll be fully supported (minus any future TIVO updates) by Dtv. Hope that helps bring a balanced perspective. That's how I'm choosing to look at this situation.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

LockMD said:


> Well I guess if it was my only DVR I would not be happy, since I do have an R10, I will keep my R15 just not have it doing the most of the work. I'm happy with both. Yeah the R15 has some growing to do, being so new to these things so do I.
> 
> Sorry to hear you guys are so upset with it.


Actually, my R15 *is* my only DVR, but I am not interested in sending it back for an R10.

After years of forgetting to record programs using my VCR, I finally decided to get a DVR. This past August I looked into the R10 vs. the other tivo-based models that were available vs. the (as of then) yet to be released R15, and I decided that I would much rather go with the new product that is the best positioned unit to grow over time. Frankly, even though the R15 has some problems, none of them have caused my BP to rise, and I anticipate that most of the problems will be corrected in the next month or two. Only then will it become clear whether or not I made the right choice.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Well also don't forget if you paid $99 for the box and got the $100 rebate from DirecTV, thats all you need to do is send them the box back and you will not be charged if you cancel service. Not sure why you would want to return something free but hey thats just me. Even if you get an R10 you can use the R10 and the R15 for the same price.


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## LockMD (Nov 16, 2005)

zortapa said:


> Actually, my R15 *is* my only DVR, but I am not interested in sending it back for an R10.
> 
> After years of forgetting to record programs using my VCR, I finally decided to get a DVR. This past August I looked into the R10 vs. the other tivo-based models that were available vs. the (as of then) yet to be released R15, and I decided that I would much rather go with the new product that is the best positioned unit to grow over time. Frankly, even though the R15 has some problems, none of them have caused my BP to rise, and I anticipate that most of the problems will be corrected in the next month or two. Only then will it become clear whether or not I made the right choice.


Yeah why not go ahead and get an R10 too? It's FREE. okay 10 bucks a month to have them both activated.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

LockMD said:


> Yeah why not go ahead and get an R10 too? It's FREE. okay 10 bucks a month to have them both activated.


Actually I think they are covered under the same $5.99 fee ($4.99 if you had them before the price increase). I may be wrong but I think thats what everyone was saying.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

He's probably referring to the $5.99 per household DVR fee, and $4.99 for mirrored programming on a 2nd receiver he may not already have in service, of course thats $11 instead....


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> He's probably referring to the $5.99 per household DVR fee, and $4.99 for mirrored programming on a 2nd receiver he may not already have in service, of course thats $11 instead....


You're probably correct I didn't think about that.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

Since I'm already paying the $5.99/month DVR fee for the R15, adding the R10 would increase my bill by just $4.99 for mirroring. Of course, this is predicated on the assumption that I could get both the R15 and the R10 for free (i.e., two rebates per account).


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## vlj9r (Nov 23, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> OK is it just me? You had to be teh first on the blocks to own them, then all you do is ***** and moan about them having bugs. Most of you saw this with the Directivo's as well, did you go braindead and think there were not going to be any bugs with a brand new DVR rollout? Any of you looked at the E* DVR track record?


FYI, I did not experience anything like this when I purchased and installed my hughes directDVR powered by TIVO. As for the R15, I had no idea it was going to be so unreliable. Is it unreasonable to expect that a product should perform as described?

For the next 6 months, I'm content. DTV agreed to credit my account $10/month for the next 6 months. Hopefully, by then the major bugs will be corrected.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

I really love how we have all received "free" merchandise and how we then feel compelled to sit around and complain about how bad it is. I paid almost $500 for my first TIVO box. No rebate and yes, we were "beta" testers too. Many updates later it is a good system.
I would agree if we all had to pay that much for this box that it needs a lot of work but I prefer at "free" to look at it as a viable box that will be upgraded (has been twice in the first week). 
From an update perspective we would be better off consolidating a list of improvements and helping to make it better than trying to burn the building down.
If you got it for free and don't like it, send it back. Yeah I know, " I've wasted so much time on this @#$% box". Like you haven't writing all these rants in multiple forums.

Free tip: If you are in FF mode and want to clear the bottom banner, press the blue button X2.

That's what I'm here for!


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> I really love how we have all received "free" merchandise and how we then feel compelled to sit around and complain about how bad it is. I paid almost $500 for my first TIVO box. No rebate and yes, we were "beta" testers too. Many updates later it is a good system.
> I would agree if we all had to pay that much for this box that it needs a lot of work but I prefer at "free" to look at it as a viable box that will be upgraded (has been twice in the first week).
> From an update perspective we would be better off consolidating a list of improvements and helping to make it better than trying to burn the building down.
> If you got it for free and don't like it, send it back. Yeah I know, " I've wasted so much time on this @#$% box". Like you haven't writing all these rants in multiple forums.
> ...


Wow someone who actually remembers the Tivo problems besides myself. I planto give this one some time to see if they fix it. If not bye bye R15..


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## vlj9r (Nov 23, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> I really love how we have all received "free" merchandise and how we then feel compelled to sit around and complain about how bad it is. I paid almost $500 for my first TIVO box. No rebate and yes, we were "beta" testers too. Many updates later it is a good system.
> I would agree if we all had to pay that much for this box that it needs a lot of work but I prefer at "free" to look at it as a viable box that will be upgraded (has been twice in the first week).
> From an update perspective we would be better off consolidating a list of improvements and helping to make it better than trying to burn the building down.
> If you got it for free and don't like it, send it back. Yeah I know, " I've wasted so much time on this @#$% box". Like you haven't writing all these rants in multiple forums.
> ...


I don't think folks are complaining about the hardware price. It' s FREE after rebate. People should complain about paying the DVR fee on a DVR that is not as reliable as the older based Tivo units. Maybe when folks start calling and demanding credits on their bill will they acknoledge the problems.


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## mvaneps (Nov 19, 2005)

A- Maybe I am missing something but I am not really saving any money if I keep the R15 and pay full price for an R10. I could use the $100 rebate on either box so why not return the R15, eat the restocking fee, and get an R10. Then the only thing I have paid out of pocket will be the restocking fee. 

B- What exactly makes you think that DTV is going to fix all the major problems in the next month or so? Have they even acknowledged that there is a problem? Has anyone heard ANYTHING from someone in an official capacity from DTV say anything specific about the problems and their intent to solve them? If I felt like were any reasonable expectation that this box could be fixed in a month then things would be different but DTV is a major corp, and things move very slowly in big companies.


C- You are right, I am just whining. I enjoy TV and I have truly come to feel that my DVR is a necessity, which of course it really isn't. But much like A/C, Powersteering, my Microwave, and cordless phones, I have come to rely on my DVR and it has worked it's way into my life. I am not interested in something that is slow and unreliable controlling my TV entertainment time.


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## 01ds650 (Nov 20, 2005)

mvaneps said:


> A- Maybe I am missing something but I am not really saving any money if I keep the R15 and pay full price for an R10. I could use the $100 rebate on either box so why not return the R15, eat the restocking fee, and get an R10. Then the only thing I have paid out of pocket will be the restocking fee.
> 
> B- What exactly makes you think that DTV is going to fix all the major problems in the next month or so? Have they even acknowledged that there is a problem? Has anyone heard ANYTHING from someone in an official capacity from DTV say anything specific about the problems and their intent to solve them? If I felt like were any reasonable expectation that this box could be fixed in a month then things would be different but DTV is a major corp, and things move very slowly in big companies.
> 
> C- You are right, I am just whining. I enjoy TV and I have truly come to feel that my DVR is a necessity, which of course it really isn't. But much like A/C, Powersteering, my Microwave, and cordless phones, I have come to rely on my DVR and it has worked it's way into my life. I am not interested in something that is slow and unreliable controlling my TV entertainment time.


A CSR at Direct told me to call back in a week & they might be able to tell me when the next update will be out. They said I'm not the only one to complain. They are compiling a list of things that need fixed.


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

mvaneps said:


> A- Maybe I am missing something but I am not really saving any money if I keep the R15 and pay full price for an R10. I could use the $100 rebate on either box so why not return the R15, eat the restocking fee, and get an R10. Then the only thing I have paid out of pocket will be the restocking fee.
> 
> B- What exactly makes you think that DTV is going to fix all the major problems in the next month or so? Have they even acknowledged that there is a problem? Has anyone heard ANYTHING from someone in an official capacity from DTV say anything specific about the problems and their intent to solve them? If I felt like were any reasonable expectation that this box could be fixed in a month then things would be different but DTV is a major corp, and things move very slowly in big companies.
> 
> C- You are right, I am just whining. I enjoy TV and I have truly come to feel that my DVR is a necessity, which of course it really isn't. But much like A/C, Powersteering, my Microwave, and cordless phones, I have come to rely on my DVR and it has worked it's way into my life. I am not interested in something that is slow and unreliable controlling my TV entertainment time.


you're obviously not satisfied with it  .........so why not just send it back and forget about it  ........if you're going to keep it, then hang with us, find the bugs, report them and help make this a reliable unit.


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## vlj9r (Nov 23, 2005)

Goodluck with Brighthouse DVR. I tried them for 3 months in Tampa and came back to DTV. On the 8300 I had, you could not play from the begining of a show while it was being recorded. You would always have to wait until it was done recording. In Tampa, the analog channels looked pretty bad too on a HD set.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

mvaneps said:


> get an R10.


Bingo, exactly what I did. Its going to be a LONG LONG time before the R-15 is working as reliable as the R-10 and have no limitations. DirecTV seems to be more concerned with adding features to a buggy box than actually fixing the problems.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

vlj9r said:


> Maybe when folks start calling and demanding credits on their bill will they acknoledge the problems.


I did that too.  They gave me a $5 a month credit for six months.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

I don't understand this thread.

I didn't agree to be a beta-tester for a new product. I wasn't the first on my block to get a DVR. In fact, I am one of the last people on my block to get a DVR. 

I didn't get a DVR in the past because I didn't think they were worth the high price.

After visiting many friends and neighbors who have a DVR (TiVo or other brands), I decided to consider getting one.

Since I've been a DirecTV customer for about 8 years, I accepted the deal they offered me: they would install a leased DVR to replace my single owned DTV receiver and I would pay them $20 immediately plus pay them an additional $5.99 per month for my DirecTV service, plus commit to keeping my DirecTV service for an additional 24 months, for a total incremental of at least $164 (or more if I keep it longer). Note that I was not given a choice of model -- DirecTV only offers one DVR model. And is is hardly a free DVR, since it is costing me a minimum of $164, and I don't even own it.

However, I think this is a fair deal (since I accepted it) and DirecTV thinks it is a fair deal (since they offered it).

But the deal is only fair if the DVR does what it is promised to do. If the product doesn't function properly, then DirecTV should either repair it or accept a return of the product and refund my $164 and cancel my commitment.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

eengert said:


> While I don't disagree that Dtv probably rushed this to market and it's not usually a good idea to launch a product with so many flaws, I do disagree that you're being forced to own one. As I stated earlier, you should feel free to buy a DTivo and be comfortable that you'll be fully supported (minus any future TIVO updates) by Dtv. Hope that helps bring a balanced perspective. That's how I'm choosing to look at this situation.


Wow...reason and sense...I'm just going to hang out here a minute and bask in it's glow.....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ApK said:


> Wow...reason and sense...I'm just going to hang out here a minute and bask in it's glow.....


He made those comments 9 months ago...
I think he has already gotten rid of his R15, and actually I don't think he frequents this forum that much anymore...

I just realized by looking at the dates, that this thread was brought back from the WAY back machine... the last post before yesterday was Novemember.... There has been what 4 software releases since then?


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Oh yeah...I didn't notice....oh well...I'll take reason and sense where I find it. Can't be too choosey these days.

Maybe I'll go home and read some Thomas Jefferson.

ApK


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Realizing that some of the comments in this thread are many months old, it makes a little more sense.

But I still don't understand the comment (made within the past 24 hours) that I am not being forced to own a R15 and I have a choice of getting an R10.

DirecTV did not give me a choice of an R15 or an R10. I cannot find anyplace to buy an R10 (unless I am willing to buy a second-hand unit without manufacturer's warranty).

And in providing me an R15, DirecTV made me commit to keep it for 2 years, thereby forcing me to own (or at least continue to lease) the product.


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## seefilms (Jul 26, 2006)

I have returned THREE of them. They either completely lock up. Record tons of shows that I didn't ask it to. Record parts of shows when i wanted the entire thing... etc. etc.
I have an R10. I have my fourth R15...

The biggest problem for me is... Yes, i understand that there will be bugs in a new operating system. But why in the name of all that's holy do they not call these BETA boxes???!!!!!!


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Upstream if you want a R10 and if you have the protection plan or if it's leased call them up and get it swapped. You may get a R10 since alot of people have been getting R10 replacements for the R15's.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Upstream...
If you want out of the commitment, you can return the box with no penalty fee assessed.

Seefilms...
Records shows you didn't ask it to? As in Repeats? or shows flat out you didn't schedule it to record?

The "Parts" of shows... There is one scenerio I know of now that does this:
(Two shows from 10-10:30; one from 10-11... when one of the shows end at 10:30, it will try to record teh rest of the one from 10-11)

Other then that, the number of "partial" records posts have been dropping over the past few releases. 
What software version is your box on?


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## seefilms (Jul 26, 2006)

Earl,

Specifically, we set it to record first runs of, let's say, The Simpsons. In five days we had 25 simpsons... none of them were first run.
Then, it would cut a program in half. Or sometimes snip the first three minutes from it.
We looked to see if there was another program recording or trying to record and we couldn't find any trace of it.

the software version we have on one of the three boxes in our house (one of them is still in the box...another is in the box getting ready to ship out) (it's a 500) is 0X10CB.

The problem is, though this HAS happened with this machine to some small degree, we've also not programmed it even half as much as the other two. It happened way more with the previous two.


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## whynot83706 (Jul 27, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> Well also don't forget if you paid $99 for the box and got the $100 rebate from DirecTV, thats all you need to do is send them the box back and you will not be charged if you cancel service. Not sure why you would want to return something free but hey thats just me. Even if you get an R10 you can use the R10 and the R15 for the same price.


So is there any time frame or you can send your box(s) back and any time and that way avoid their cancelation fee?


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

whynot83706 said:


> So is there any time frame or you can send your box(s) back and any time and that way avoid their cancelation fee?


I thought it was within 30 days you could return the equipment and get out without a canx fee.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Upstream if you want a R10


I don't want an R10.

The R10 doesn't have a lot of the features which attracted me to the R15 (100 hr drive, picture in guide, one-touch record, interactive capability, future enhancements).

What I want is for the R15 to do what it is supposed to do.

And then after that, I have a list of things I would like to see as future enhancements.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

In your last post you're sounding like your being forced into keeping the r15 and weren't offered an R10, and in the next, after after being told you can return the R15 and told you can get an R10 (which can have an even bigger drive, by the way) you're giving all these reasons you WANT to keep the R15 and don't WANT the more reliable, proven system.

Sounds like battered-wife syndrome.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Apk -- As I said earlier, I made a deal with DirecTV: they provide me certain functionality and I provide them money plus a commitment to send them more money. "But the deal is only fair if the DVR does what it is promised to do. If the product doesn't function properly, then DirecTV should either repair it or accept a return of the product and refund my $164 and cancel my commitment." Getting an R10 doesn't really solve the problem since it doesn't do the things the R15 promises.

My preference is that DTV repair the R15 (obviously, since I had already determined that a properly functioning R15 is worth what I agreed to pay). If DTV agrees to refund my $164 and cancel the commitment (even after the 30 day period, which I am not sure exists for prior customers), that is a less desirable outcome. Providing an R10 without a new agreement with a different amount of money and different commitment is not acceptable, since the R10 does not provide the functionality which I was promised when I made the original agreement.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Upstream said:


> "But the deal is only fair if the DVR does what it is promised to do. If the product doesn't function properly, then DirecTV should either repair it or accept a return of the product and refund my $164 and cancel my commitment."


I'm not sure I understand your logic. You want a refund of $164?



Upstream said:


> ...and I would pay them $20 immediately plus pay them an additional $5.99 per month for my DirecTV service, plus commit to keeping my DirecTV service for an additional 24 months, for a total incremental of at least $164 (or more if I keep it longer).


You haven't paid that much yet, have you? Isn't that what you would have paid over two years?


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Obviously if I haven't paid that much yet, then DTV would only refund the amount I paid.

But I think you are missing the point I am trying to make: some people in this thread have suggested that since many people got the R15 for free, then they shouldn't complain about its faults, and if they don't like it, they should spend money to get an R10. My point is that the R15 wasn't free; an R10 is not a substitute for a fully-functioning R15; and DTV should fix the R15 (or if that is not possible then they should refund all money paid and cancel the commitments).


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

Upstream said:


> have suggested that since many people got the R15 for free, then they shouldn't complain about its faults


I stopped using the R-15 almost completely due to its limits and problems but I haven't been really upset as I did get the R-15 for no cost and also get a $5 a month credit for 6 months. I got it free and am using it for free in a sense.

I dont care about any commitment and that would not stop me from going elsewhere if I wanted to. When Comcast adds the TiVo software to the Moto 6412, I plan to switch as I cant get HD thru DirecTV in my area and by then the NFL season should be over. The NFLST and the DirecTiVo are about the only things keeping me with DirecTV at this point in time.

I do agree with you and DirecTV needs to fix it ASAP, it was obviously released way to early and hardly tested under anything but the most novice of circumstances IMO, etc....


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Upstream said:


> But I think you are missing the point I am trying to make: some people in this thread have suggested that since many people got the R15 for free, then they shouldn't complain about its faults, ... My point is that the R15 wasn't free...


Completely agree with you there.



Upstream said:


> (or if that is not possible then they should refund all money paid and cancel the commitments).


To a point, I agree. If you complained and returned it in the first few months, then yes. If you've had it and used it for 6 - 8 months, I think you're pushing it. I wouldn't agree if you've had it for 2 years and say "It's never worked at 100%. I want all my money back!" There's got to be a point where your continued use of the service (with its limitations) ammounts to acceptance.


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