# HBO Max - is it a mess?



## phrelin

I was hoping someone else would start a thread on HBO Max which was introduced the United States on Wednesday. But we need to start reading opinions here.

The review by _Gizmodo_ is headlined HBO Max Is a Mess because what the writer describes is a mess. _Variety_ notes another problem HBO Max's 80 Million Household Dead Spot: Why Streamer Isn't on Roku or Amazon Fire TV. And while the Ars Technica reviewer uses kinder language, the headline explains HBO Max is live: $15/mo for a massive library, significant headaches.

Since I have two TV's, one driven by a Roku device, the other by an Amazon Fire TV Cube, I cannot comment about Max other than it is saving me $3 a month. About a month ago, I dropped my $14.99 per month HBO (Now) Amazon subscription and for $11.99-per-month-for-12-months signed up for HBO Max as a new in-advance subscriber which gave me HBO Now through an HBO Now app on both the Roku and the Cube. I think of the $3 as a contribution for Apple+.

Anyway, I'm curious how folks here feel about HBO Max.


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## b4pjoe

Good selection of stuff to watch if you have a supported device. I haven't experienced any technical issues either.


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## MysteryMan

While it's only been two days so far there isn't anything not to like about HBO Max.


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## icr2002

I got something to NOT like about HBO max. You cant use it on fire tv or Roku. They should be telling people when they start signing up that so they dont WASTE their money. I dont watch anything on my cell or PC. I wont be paying for another month until they are on them devices.


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## MysteryMan

icr2002 said:


> I got something to NOT like about HBO max. You cant use it on fire tv or Roku. They should be telling people when they start signing up that so they dont WASTE their money. I dont watch anything on my cell or PC. I wont be paying for another month until they are on them devices.


That's a licensing agreement issue and has nothing to do with how well HBO Max performs as a service.


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## lparsons21

MysteryMan said:


> That's a licensing agreement issue and has nothing to do with how well HBO Max performs as a service.


Yep, and it will be solved soon I would guess. Otherwise the service works very well, the UI isn't horrible and the stuff it has in addition to HBO is great.

Search is a little odd I've found, takes more letters to have it show what you are looking for than most other searches.


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## techguy88

lparsons21 said:


> Yep, and it will be solved soon I would guess. Otherwise the service works very well, the UI isn't horrible and the stuff it has in addition to HBO is great.
> 
> Search is a little odd I've found, takes more letters to have it show what you are looking for than most other searches.


My main complaint is they could have added at least 4 more HBO Max hubs  The 4 HBO Max hubs I think would have been beneficial are *BBC Studios Collection*, *CNN Collection*, *truTV Collection* and *The CW Collection*. Currently there is only two shows from TBS (_Conan Without Borders_, _Full Frontal with Samantha Bee_) and two from TNT (_The Alienist_, _Men of a Certain Age_) so not enough for a content hub at the moment.

CNN has 11 shows and truTV has 9 shows both could have benefited from their own content hubs. Their partnership with BBC Studios could also benefit from a content hub as there are 42 different titles that come up when searching for BBC. In comparison the flagship Loony Tunes content hub features 5 titles and the Adult Swim content hub has 9 titles.

An easy way to navigate around is to figure out the keywords for search. If you want to see all the titles from the BBC Studios partnership just type "*BBC*" into the search and it will display all the titles. I personally like the fact in addition to _Doctor Who_ they have _Torchwood_ and now both _Little Britain _and _Little Britain USA_ are in 1 home . Other useful keywords are obviously *CNN*, *TBS*, *TNT*, *truTV*.

Boomerang is not a useful keyword as it produces the 2016 _Suicide Squad_ movie  and nothing displays when you type in The CW or CW (The CW would have been beneficial for _Batwoman_, _Nancy Drew_ and _Katy Keene_ ). While there is only 3 shows from The CW on there at the moment they are 3 big shows from the network and fit within one of the demographics they are trying to expand upon outside of the HBO brand.



b4pjoe said:


> Good selection of stuff to watch if you have a supported device. I haven't experienced any technical issues either.


Technical wise it had the smoothest launch so far it was not as horrid as the Day 1 launch of Disney+ (maybe not being on Amazon Fire TV device and Roku devices had a helping hand in that ) Compatible devices had the HBO Now app updated to HBO Max which rolled out over a few hours starting at 3 AM ET. There was a breif issue between 4-5am where some videos didn't want to load so I just watched the episode of _Last Week Tonight_ I missed via good old trusty HBO Go.



phrelin said:


> I was hoping someone else would start a thread on HBO Max which was introduced the United States on Wednesday. But we need to start reading opinions here.
> 
> The review by _Gizmodo_ is headlined HBO Max Is a Mess because what the writer describes is a mess. _Variety_ notes another problem HBO Max's 80 Million Household Dead Spot: Why Streamer Isn't on Roku or Amazon Fire TV. And while the Ars Technica reviewer uses kinder language, the headline explains HBO Max is live: $15/mo for a massive library, significant headaches.
> 
> Since I have two TV's, one driven by a Roku device, the other by an Amazon Fire TV Cube, I cannot comment about Max other than it is saving me $3 a month. About a month ago, I dropped my $14.99 per month HBO (Now) Amazon subscription and for $11.99-per-month-for-12-months signed up for HBO Max as a new in-advance subscriber which gave me HBO Now through an HBO Now app on both the Roku and the Cube. I think of the $3 as a contribution for Apple+.
> 
> Anyway, I'm curious how folks here feel about HBO Max.


@phrelin I erroneously put the main HBO Max thread in the DirecTV section because most of the talked about information out during its reveal was about AT&T/DirecTV subscribers getting it for free and there was a lot of confusion about how that worked. Most of the posts have been in that thread. (Now in hindsight not a good place to place that thread )

I think it will improve over time and you can tell when comparing content available on both HBO Go vs HBO Max (like _Game of Thrones_) that HBO Max has a higher bit-rate than HBO Go. I tested that out with watching the first episode out on my main TV with my Apple TV and I could tell a difference between the two. I do hope HBO Max gets 4K HDR support soon because I plan on getting a 4K TV sometime next year.

Obviously I don't think they meant to launch with just six original series or give _Craftopia_ and _Not Too Late Show with Elmo _such a hard advertising push at launch lol. You can tell they got hit hard by Hollywood being shut down by COVID-19 and what they are doing is rationing what is completed and hoping Hollywood opens back up soon.

Eventually what will probably happen if Hollywood doesn't open back up soon is they might have to share more stuff with DC Universe and Crunchyroll than intended similar to how The CW has had to resort to airing two cancelled series, _Swamp Thing_ from DC Universe and _Tell Me a Story_ from CBS All Access, for the fall.

I personally think WarnerMedia may even have to break their earlier statement about keeping HBO Max and Cinemax separate and eventually bring over one or two of the Cinemax originals in order to buy more time depending on how long it takes for their HBO Max originals to restart production once they are allowed to do so.

Overall I think HBO Max is very good for the price considering old HBO would cost anywhere from $14.99 for HBO Now to $17.99 on DirecTV. HBO Max has double the amount of content for the same price, multiple profiles, better bit-rate than Go/Now, better movie selection outside of HBO. Similar to Disney+ once the rights expire to other Warner Bros. films expire on other platforms they will come home to HBO Max.


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## tsmacro

I've determined that HBO doesn't want my money. I subscribed to them for years and then they pulled their channel from Dish, so I streamed their service just long enough to watch the final season of GoT. Then I basically forgot they existed for a while and then I start hearing about their new HBO Max service and I'm thinking ok that sounds like it would be worth checking out. Oh but what I use for streaming is an Amazon Fire Stick, so oh well, no HBO Max for me.


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## CTJon

Just tried it on my laptop with AirPlay to my TV. Not in love with the interface but maybe I need to play with it more It seems to want me to add things to my list rather than just play it. Again, maybe I need to play more with it. Content will be more important than interface so we shall see


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## makaiguy

tsmacro said:


> Oh but what I use for streaming is an Amazon Fire Stick, so oh well, no HBO Max for me.


For me it's Roku, but the same problem. They'll come to terms eventually.

I think it's ironic that, after doing battle with the content suppliers to their satellite and cable services, that now that ATT is the content supplier themselves they're playing hardball with their downstream distribution services.


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## techguy88

icr2002 said:


> I got something to NOT like about HBO max. You cant use it on fire tv or Roku. They should be telling people when they start signing up that so they dont WASTE their money. I dont watch anything on my cell or PC. I wont be paying for another month until they are on them devices.





MysteryMan said:


> That's a licensing agreement issue and has nothing to do with how well HBO Max performs as a service.





lparsons21 said:


> Yep, and it will be solved soon I would guess. Otherwise the service works very well, the UI isn't horrible and the stuff it has in addition to HBO is great.
> 
> Search is a little odd I've found, takes more letters to have it show what you are looking for than most other searches.





tsmacro said:


> I've determined that HBO doesn't want my money. I subscribed to them for years and then they pulled their channel from Dish, so I streamed their service just long enough to watch the final season of GoT. Then I basically forgot they existed for a while and then I start hearing about their new HBO Max service and I'm thinking ok that sounds like it would be worth checking out. Oh but what I use for streaming is an Amazon Fire Stick, so oh well, no HBO Max for me.


WarnerMedia has versions of the app for Amazon Fire devices and Roku devices ready to go they just need to reach deals with Amazon and Roku first then it can be deployed "within minutes".

I would seriously love to know if people would be this willing to place this much blame on Disney if Disney+ actually launched without any support for Amazon Fire device support like originally planned? I mean honestly just because it is AT&T people are automatically assuming it is AT&T's fault HBO Max is not available on their devices do you not once hold your device manufacture/App store operator responsible? It is their own Digital Walled Garden after all Amazon dictates to you what apps are available because you have their device.

For a refresher Disney released the list of comparable devices for Disney+ in advance and Amazon Fire devices were missing. Amazon didn't reach a deal until 5 days before the launch day of Disney+. Mainly the reports were over Amazon wanting 40% of the ad-space across ESPN+, Hulu, DisneyNow, FreeformNow, FXNow, National Geographic Now, etc. in exchange for Fire device support for Disney+. Disney did not like that number which is a big chunk of valuable ad-space to hand over to Amazon. Exactly why does Amazon need this big of a % of ad-revenue sharing across this many apps? They are not one ones spending all the money producing the content here.

The fact of the matter is WarnerMedia has managed to sign a lot of deals with a lot of providers in a short amount of time to include HBO Max as part of various HBO/HBO Now subscriptions outside of direct billed HBO Now/AT&T owned companies.

The issue is not AT&T/WarnerMedia if it was that list would be minuscule. Amazon's big problem is they want the "Max content" integrated into the Prime Video App. When content is integrated into the Prime Video App Amazon gets control over all analytics data from that user and selectively passes on what it wants to the content owner. WarnerMedia wants all Max content viewed through its own app just like how Amazon treats Netflix, Hulu and Disney+ and Amazon is saying no.

WarnerMedia has no objections to allowing them keeping the "HBO content" and the HBO linear channels available through the Prime Video app similar to how Hulu is able to continue offering HBO content through its own app along with HBO linear channels. Hulu + HBO subscribers just need to use the HBO Max app to watch the Max originals and library content like _Friends_.

During the dispute Roku is being respectful to all sides and not prodding its consumer base into a riot which I respect Roku for. Sure their statement is more of a fluff piece but it is a sign of good faith on their part and they even wish HBO Max success and want to be part of it.

Amazon on the other hand is playing low-ball dirty tactics commonly used during pay-TV disputes between a channel owner and a MVPD. Amazon is outright accusing AT&T directly because they know the AT&T brand (like all telecommunication companies) have a negative consumer perception and Amazon thinks by doing this they will get what they want from WarnerMedia. They know by going after the "WarnerMedia" brand it won't mean much to the consumer but going after "AT&T" brand will incite anger towards AT&T and not Amazon.

Had Amazon not reached a deal with Disney then people would have turned against Amazon because in the world of brand perception people around the world (not just in the United States) love the Disney brand more than the Amazon brand and would have placed more blame on Amazon if Disney+ launched without any Amazon Fire device support. Hence why Amazon held out as long as they possibly could on a deal and caved 5 days before Disney+'s launch. They didn't want to take a risk of people buying other streaming devices and losing market share over not having Disney+.

Amazon is not the innocent party it is portraying itself out to be here it is just as much to blame for the lack of HBO Max on Amazon Fire devices. Amazon has even blocked new Android TV OS devices from using their own Prime Video app until the device manufacturer reached some sort of revenue sharing agreement with Amazon.

During disputes they often would use the HBO Now app as a way to skirt around the dispute with the manufacturer by advising Prime Video Channels-HBO subscribers to use the HBO Now app on affected devices until the dispute was resolved. (On Android TV OS devices the manufacturer can't block compatible apps like Netflix and Prime Video for any reason however Netflix and Amazon can block their app from appearing on any Android TV device for any reason.)

So instead of placing all the blame on AT&T here you should look at Amazon's track record and see Amazon's history of using its platform and customer base as ways to get what it wants when it comes to increased revenue, increased ad revenue, etc.

The TL;DR Amazon wants all the "Max content" integrated into the Prime Video app not because it is "good customer service" because they want to be the ones in control of the analytics and viewership data generated each time a Prime Video-HBO subscriber watches something from the Prime Video app. They don't want you to navigate outside of the Prime Video app to watch _Love Life_, _Friends, Batman_ or _Harry Potter_ where they won't get your (aka the consumer's) data.


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## b4pjoe

Great post. To be honest I like the Apple TV 4K box a lot more than my Fire TV devices so I'll probably just get a couple more of them and be done with Amazon hardware.


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## MysteryMan

MysteryMan said:


> While it's only been two days so far there isn't anything not to like about HBO Max.


I found "Band of Brothers" today and placed it in My List and watched the first two episodes. Audio/Video is Blu-ray quality. It gave my surround sound system a good workout. Again, what's not to like about HBO Max?


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## JerryMeeker

I downloaded the app to my AppleTV 4K. On the plus side, I was able to gain access using my DirecTV credentials, since I am an HBO subscriber. On the minus side, HBO Max does not support 4K, or Dolby Vision content. Quite a bit of the content I have already viewed since I have been a HBO subscriber for many years.


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## phrelin

I appreciate all the observations which place the HBO Max service in a viewer experience context. It's something to look forward to when and if the app appears on Roku and/or Amazon hardware.

Because we experienced over the decades so much conflict between source networks and carriers (like Dish in my case), I can't get real upset about the dispute between the likes of AT&T (now a source streamer) and the device companies Roku and Amazon, both of which are free beyond acquiring the hardware. As streaming devices go, Roku is at the top of my list. I like my 2nd gen Fire Cube because it replaced an Echo device in our living room plus it's competitive among the streaming devices.

So I'll wait patiently...what else can one do? In the meantime, we're still getting the HBO content that we enjoy for $3 a month less than we were paying in April (see my OP).


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## lparsons21

While it would be nice to have HBO Max on Roku and FireTV devices right now, it will happen and I think fairly soon. ATT can’t ignore the 80 million potential subscribers that those two box providers have. Some compromise will make it happen. For those wanting to point fingers, well have fun. Neither of the players in this are fault free imo.

As to video/audio quality? Well, no it isn’t Blu-Ray quality. It is very good 1080p video quality and good 5.1 audio. Better than many other providers.l

The UI is a huge step up from HBO Now/Go! Profiles are a biggie IMO. Now I can watch a series and so can my son and keep track of just where I’m at in the series while he can keep track of his. Having a watchlist is great too. I haven’t used HBO Go/Now for a long time, do they even have Watchlists?


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## inkahauts

They have had watchlists forever. The profiles is the big new thing as you say.

I’ll happily fully blame amazon and Roku since they don’t want to do for HBO Max what they have done for Netflix and Disney+

I think they realize they are losing out ways to monetize the people watching those apps and want to stop that. Tuff.


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## billsharpe

I've been getting HBO for $5 per month for over a year with my Frontier cable sub. Even with the extras I can't see paying $15 for HBO Max, especially since I have a Roku TV.


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## icr2002

inkahauts said:


> They have had watchlists forever. The profiles is the big new thing as you say.
> 
> I'll happily fully blame amazon and Roku since they don't want to do for HBO Max what they have done for Netflix and Disney+
> 
> I think they realize they are losing out ways to monetize the people watching those apps and want to stop that. Tuff.


Both companys should allow u to install and run any andriod app on the device U bought. If they gave away the devices I would not have a problem with them controlling what can and can not be on them. But they dont. I think I may dump all my fire tv devices and replace them with google chromecasts.


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## raott

At my house, one of my Apple TV's it claimed that the "AT&T account" was not authorized to have HBO Max....despite the fact that the TV Provider in my Apple TV settings is Directv and NOT AT&T. It took deleting the app, signing out of the My TV provider on the Apple TV, logging back in to My TV provider, and then re-adding and signing in to the App for it to work.


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## phrelin

I recognize that the following post is convoluted but I feel it is important to understand that AT&T has cheated loyal long-term HBO customers. But they're AT&T and they made it very confusing because they can.

_Seeking Alpha_, which is investor oriented, offered this AT&T: The HBO Max Launch Was A Disaster which covers pretty much everything that seems so disorganized about the launch. With regard to Roku and Amazon the article points out the obvious including a chart:










The obvious fact is HBO Max _at launch_ isn't available on 70% of potential customer's installed streaming media players though I'm sure some of those customer another media player that provides Max.

From an investor's viewpoint, if no other, that's just AT&T being greedily irresponsible (full disclosure, we own an extremely modest number of shares of AT&T and are AT&T phone customers). Let me explain.

As the article notes:

So what's the reason for no deals with Roku and Amazon given the enormous customer potential? Unsurprisingly, it is about money and that AT&T wants to strike a mutually beneficial deal but although we don't know any details I feel AT&T needs to give in here if it wants HBO Max to be meaningful.​
But there is more to it than that.



icr2002 said:


> Both companys should allow u to install and run any andriod app on the device U bought. If they gave away the devices I would not have a problem with them controlling what can and can not be on them. But they dont. I think I may dump all my fire tv devices and replace them with google chromecasts.


That's certainly one point of view.

But as the article points out, it's AT&T that's basically stealing from folks who for years have subscribed to HBO through Amazon Prime paying that $15 a month. It offers the following quote from Amazon:

Unfortunately, with the launch of HBO Max, AT&T is choosing to deny these loyal HBO customers access to the expanded catalog. We believe that if you're paying for HBO, you're entitled to the new programming through the method you're already using. That's just good customer service and that's a priority for us.​
You need to keep in mind that AT&T is a phone service, TV service, internet service, etc., company.

IMHO within its TV service business side, AT&T seemingly has not had its act together Launched in 2006, U-verse TV reached 5.7 million customers before they bought DirecTV in 2015 with its 20 million customers announcing plans for a new "home entertainment gateway" platform that will converge DirecTV and U-verse around a common platform based upon DirecTV hardware with "very thin hardware profiles."

Since I'm not a customer of either service, I can't speak based on experience about that. But what I've read and based on experiences of family members, it seems like AT&T fumbled what should have been a clean merger of organizations. It gets even further muddled because AT&T is an ISP.

Then in 2018 they acquired Warner Media which gave them the assets of Turner Broadcasting, HBO, Otter Media, and Cinemax. Effectively, this gave them significant assets in both production and direct-to-customer sale of content, "customer" meaning cable/satellite companies which resell "channels" to individuals and individual streaming direct to customers.

What we have is a cable _and_ satellite TV service provider which is also an internet service provider now offering its Warner Media content to customers as HBO Max in the least thought out launch for a streaming service ever. But...

The obvious primary goal for AT&T was to promote other AT&T products. As CNBC explained in mid-April:

AT&T's WarnerMedia is launching its HBO Max streaming service on May 27, the company announced Tuesday. AT&T customers who currently pay for HBO through AT&T will get access to HBO Max for free.

If you don't already pay for HBO through AT&T, HBO Max will also be free for people who pay for any of these AT&T services:

AT&T's Unlimited Elite wireless plan.
AT&T's Internet 1000 plan.
AT&T TV Premier (launching after HBO Max.)
DirecTV Premier.
U-verse U400, U450 and U450 Latino.
Customers on other plans will be eligible for up to a free year of service.
The service will otherwise cost $14.99 per month.​
But that article was unaware of the other offer explained by _The Verge_ in HBO Max is $3 cheaper thanks to limited-time preorder offer which explains that the offer is going to undercut Apple and Google users who have subscribed directly. The article notes:

Rich Greenfield, an analyst at LightShed Partners, tweeted that he canceled his HBO subscription through Apple in order to sign up via HBO Max's website directly and redeem the offer. It's unclear if WarnerMedia will work out a deal for customers who use Apple and Google for HBO payments, but The Verge has asked for more information.​
In my case, I kept reading about this finally concluding in April that this launch was going to be weird, not oriented to making the streaming service successful but supporting other AT&T business interests.

I dropped my $14.99 Amazon Prime HBO (Now) service after signing up for the $11.99 HBO Max introductory offer which gave me immediate and continuing access to HBO content through the HBO Now app on both the Roku and Fire Cube devices.

In other words, I got a 20% price discount for one year by dropping my Amazon Prime subscription to HBO Now and getting it directly from AT&T. _At launch_ I had access to Max content on my Windows computers plus Android phones which I can mirror to my TV.

Truthfully, there is no current Max-exclusive content that particularly appeals to me. Sure, the moment I can use the Max app on my Roku and Fire Cube, I will. And once the 12-month $11.99 trial expires I will cancel that subscription and return back to Amazon Prime as the subscription source because IMHO it is the right thing to do.

In the meantime I expect to see in the next financials from AT&T our household and Rich Greenfield's household counted as a new HBO Max subscribers instead of a continuing HBO subscribers, which is a lie typically found within AT&T financials.


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## JerryMeeker

I guess no one is concerned that HBO Max has no 4K or Dolby Vision content?


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## inkahauts

Yeah it’s ridiculous they don’t have as much 4K as possible available. We know they have plenty of shows and movies that are already mastered and ready to go in 4K!


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## inkahauts

I disagree with the idea HBO is being mean to their subs. Any provider that doesn’t have it right now is basically asking for more control over it than the ones who said yes and signed up for it. It’s basically a fight over money but in reverse of how it usually goes between providers and channels. In this case the providers want more “money” than the channel will “pay”.

If I where HBO if this doesn’t get sorted within a couple weeks I’d offer free appletv to anyone who agreed to keep HBO for six months. Then we will see what happens with amazon and Roku.


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## b4pjoe

I was able to sideload HBO Max to my Fire TV devices and it works fine other than it isn't listed in installed apps or recent apps on the Home screen. You have to go to Settings => Applications => Manage Installed Applications to launch it from there.


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## icr2002

b4pjoe said:


> I was able to sideload HBO Max to my Fire TV devices and it works fine other than it isn't listed in installed
> apps or recent apps on the Home screen. You have to go to Settings => Applications => Manage Installed Applications to launch it from there.


I did that on day one. But i could not use the remote to choose anything in the app once it loaded.


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## techguy88

From what I read in WSJ the issue with Roku is a traditional streaming issue dealing with subscription/advertising revenue (the ad bit is for when the AVOD tier launches in 2021.) AT&T/WarnerMedia really has no leverage at the present moment in the streaming realm here and may need to bend and give a little with Roku to get a deal done quickly (i.e. next few days/weeks) and not let this drag out as long as the AT&T TV app debacle did.

If they can get a Roku deal done in a quick manner then they will have some leverage over Amazon and finally get them to possibly cave on their demand of having the "Max content" de-aggregated into the Prime Video app as a channel like the "HBO content". For Amazon that seems to be their only issue is where the "Max content" is placed apparently as they don't want their Prime Video-HBO channel subscribers hopping between two apps just to watch the "Max content".

From most consumer sites a lot of the issues is lack of Roku/Fire TV availablity and 4K HDR. Some sites also noted no buzz-worthy originals but are a little more sympathetic like Deadline's article recapping analysts MoffettNathanson assessment where they acknowledged COVID-19 as a reason to cut HBO Max a bit of slack due to the production shutdown as the long awaited _Friends_ reunion (planned for launch) would have been their must-have thing to sign up for. A lot of other sites like IGN had a similar assessment.

The thing is the service is not bad but their big hurdle is they need at least either a Roku or Amazon deal quick. Both are preferred but if they can get at least one done sooner rather than later that would be a big win. Roku would be the preferred choice as it has the bigger install base in the United States.



icr2002 said:


> I did that on day one. But i could not use the remote to choose anything in the app once it loaded.


From what I've read if you couldn't use your remote you may have side-loaded the Android Mobile apk not the Android TV apk those who side-loaded the Android TV apk have had no issues.


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## glrush

I fooled around with it a little bit last week. As another poster commented, the sign in with my Apple TV was a little clunky but it finally worked. Video quality was good I thought; I really loved the old Loonie Tune cartoons. 
Not being on Amazon or Roku is a pretty big hole, IMO. ATT&T has made it clear how important HBO Max is to their company and it isn't available to 2 of the biggest streamers ? Seems weak. 
This article was pretty interesting: 
Data show why HBO Max's slow start may not tell the whole story


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## b4pjoe

techguy88 said:


> From what I've read if you couldn't use your remote you may have side-loaded the Android Mobile apk not the Android TV apk those who side-loaded the Android TV apk have had no issues.


This is correct. Using the download from this article works fine. How to install HBO Max on Fire Stick using Android TV APK

Also the apk will not install if you have HBO NOW installed. You must uninstall it first. After you get HBO Max installed if you go to the apps section and click the HBO Now icon it will then launch HBO Max and it will be listed in your applications and recent apps as HBO Now but it runs HBO Max.


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## dod1450

It would be nice to have this app available on my Directv receiver. Like they have for locast.


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## icr2002

Thank You. You were right. I have successfully sideloaded the hbo max for andriod tv onto my fire and it works wonderfully. Still think amazon should allow it for all prime users and solve their issues with att afterwards. Not everyone knows how to sideload


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## techguy88

In a break from the DNS madness currently going on in the D* forum this is an interesting read from Variety about HBO Max. They make a good point tho Netflix didn't have its breakout must watch original programs on Day 1 like _House of Cards_ and _Orange is the New Black_. The Max Originals will get there


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## glrush

"HBO Max Isn't a Game Changer for AT&T": Analyst


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## grover517

I think there is enough blame here to go around for Amazon, Roku and AT&T. We all know fully well how they all operate from both sides of the battle lines as providers and content owners. But in the end, for me right now, this is pretty much on AT&T.

My own personal opinion is that AT&T knew fully well how those two companies operate, had over a year to hammer out an agreement yet here we are. AT&T picked this fight plain and simple and is completely willing to toss 80+ million potential customers to the side to try and get their way. It's their decision to do that and that's fine. But it doesn't negate the fact that yet again, we the consumers are stuck in the middle. I simply won't allow myself to be used in that way anymore. I chose FireTV for a number of reasons above and beyond over what apps were available or weren't. So even if HBO Max offered free AppleTV's or other supported devices, I still wouldn't bite. It would just encourage even more of this crap.

Although I am interested to see what Max is all about and what content is really out there, I am not about to throw even more money at another streaming device, pay a premium price AND have to jump thru hoops such as side loading the app, watching only on a mobile device or anything else just to view it. I didn't ditch my FireTV devices when Amazon and Google had their pissing match over Prime Video, YT and YTTV (which I now subscribe to by the way) and I won't do it this time either. I will simply wait until the children find a way to get along and then maybe give Max a peek to see if it's worth the cost. Until then, there is already way too much content out there to watch.


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## icr2002

great now hbo max demands an update and I got to find the correct apk. THis is getting old real fast amazon!!!!!


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## MysteryMan

icr2002 said:


> great now hbo max demands an update and I got to find the correct apk. THis is getting old real fast amazon!!!!!


No problem updating apps on my Android TVs (Sony XBR-55X900F and Sony XBR-65A9G). All I have to do is select Apps and go into Google Play Store and select My Apps. It tells me which ones need updating. All I have to do is select Update All and it's taken care of. Easy.


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## mjwagner

MysteryMan said:


> No problem updating apps on my Android TVs (Sony XBR-55X900F and Sony XBR-65A9G). All I have to do is select Apps and go into Google Play Store and select My Apps. It tells me which ones need updating. All I have to do is select Update All and it's taken care of. Easy.


Doesn't work that way for folks running the side loaded app on FireTV devices...which is the only way to run it currently on those devices.


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## techguy88

icr2002 said:


> great now hbo max demands an update and I got to find the correct apk. THis is getting old real fast amazon!!!!!





MysteryMan said:


> No problem updating apps on my Android TVs (Sony XBR-55X900F and Sony XBR-65A9G). All I have to do is select Apps and go into Google Play Store and select My Apps. It tells me which ones need updating. All I have to do is select Update All and it's taken care of. Easy.





mjwagner said:


> Doesn't work that way for folks running the side loaded app on FireTV devices...which is the only way to run it currently on those devices.


This is true you have to manually update the app by side-loading the updated apk file.

@icr2002 keep that link from @b4pjoe bookmarked I just checked it and that site seems to be keeping up to date with the app updates by updating the links in the article. The article was edited on June 3rd with a link to the updated APK.


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## techguy88

Well... after Stankey doubled down on the Amazon dispute during AT&T's Q2 earnings call the topic has now broached the government. (Video) For once AT&T/WarnerMedia is not on the bad side of the government. 

Amazon essentially got called out for trying to get WarnerMedia to license content to them for Prime Video/IMDb TV in order for HBO Max to be added to Fire TV devices. Of course Bezos states he has no idea about these negotiations. (I call bull on that.)


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## NashGuy

techguy88 said:


> In a break from the DNS madness currently going on in the D* forum this is an interesting read from Variety about HBO Max. They make a good point tho Netflix didn't have its breakout must watch original programs on Day 1 like _House of Cards_ and _Orange is the New Black_. The Max Originals will get there


And keep in mind that HBO Max already has a TON of high-quality breakout originals because it includes the entire HBO Originals library. Their new line of Max Originals are intended to be complementary, appealing to different demographics/tastes (especially kids to twentysomethings, skewing female). I don't fall into those categories but I'm a big fan of Search Party, which actually started on TBS but became a Max Original with season 3. Australian dramedy import Frayed also looks promising. (The tag line I saw was something like "Did you know your life flushes down the toilet in the opposite direction in Australia?") If they ever get to finish production on them, there are some other decent-looking titles on tap too, like The Flight Attendant and Tokyo Vice.


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## techguy88

NashGuy said:


> And keep in mind that HBO Max already has a TON of high-quality breakout originals because it includes the entire HBO Originals library. Their new line of Max Originals are intended to be complementary, appealing to different demographics/tastes (especially kids to twentysomethings, skewing female). I don't fall into those categories but I'm a big fan of Search Party, which actually started on TBS but became a Max Original with season 3. Australian dramedy import Frayed also looks promising. (The tag line I saw was something like "Did you know your life flushes down the toilet in the opposite direction in Australia?") If they ever get to finish production on them, there are some other decent-looking titles on tap too, like The Flight Attendant and Tokyo Vice.


I'm actually interested in _The Flight Attendant _after watching Kaley Cuoco on _The Big Bang Theory _plus what they have shown of the show seems interesting. I'm actually looking forward to _Raised by Wolves_ and _Tokyo Vice_. I like the international shows. I've been watching _The Capture_ on Peacock so I will defiantly check out _Frayed _(mainly because of that tag line you mentioned made me laugh.)

Also I have to watch _Zach Snyder's Justice League_ when it comes out. I like DC and Marvel (although I will say Marvel films are much better.) One of my hobbies is watching different cuts of films so I want to see how different _Zach Snyder's Justice League _is different from the theatrical (aka the Whedon) cut.


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## inkahauts

techguy88 said:


> Well... after Stankey doubled down on the Amazon dispute during AT&T's Q2 earnings call the topic has now broached the government. (Video) For once AT&T/WarnerMedia is not on the bad side of the government.
> 
> Amazon essentially got called out for trying to get WarnerMedia to license content to them for Prime Video/IMDb TV in order for HBO Max to be added to Fire TV devices. Of course Bezos states he has no idea about these negotiations. (I call bull on that.)


I actually believe he probably doesn't know anything about it. That's really small fry by comparison to other things. He shouldn't even have to be aware of the details of that.


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## techguy88

inkahauts said:


> I actually believe he probably doesn't know anything about it. That's really small fry by comparison to other things. He shouldn't even have to be aware of the details of that.


It was an anti-trust hearing and Amazon was the only company there that has a streaming device platform with a majority share. Given how much both HBO Max and Peacock have been in the news for their lack of an Fire TV app, Bezos should have reviewed those negotiations and been prepared. Also Bezos didn't become the richest man on the planet without having some knowledge on how various aspects of his company negotiates.

Bezos was involved in the negotiations to get the Prime Video app on Apple's iOS & Apple TV platforms in 2016. Prime Video & Fire TV devices are a big part of Amazon given the fact that Prime Video being included in Prime memberships is a key draw of a Prime subscription. So yeah Bezos knows something about the negotiations that his company is involved in.


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## glrush

Looks like there was a shakeup in the senior management ranks regarding HBO Max. I wonder if it is related at all to the fact they are not yet on Roku.

Bob Greenblatt, Kevin Reilly exit WarnerMedia in dramatic shakeup


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## NashGuy

glrush said:


> Looks like there was a shakeup in the senior management ranks regarding HBO Max. I wonder if it is related at all to the fact they are not yet on Roku.
> 
> Bob Greenblatt, Kevin Reilly exit WarnerMedia in dramatic shakeup


Here's an interview with the new head guy at WarnerMedia, Jason Kilar (formerly of Hulu).

WarnerMedia's Jason Kilar On New Structure, Layoffs & Future Of HBO Max, Theatrical Distribution & Linear TV - Deadline

It sounds to me like the layoffs and changes are more about streamlining the company and orienting it more in a direct-to-consumer direction (mainly in support of HBO Max).

Given the increased focus that Kilar wants to bring to HBO Max, I'd say it makes it even *less* likely that they will give in to Amazon and Roku's demands to allow their own apps (Prime Video and Roku Channel) to ingest the entire HBO Max catalog/service, leaving WarnerMedia playing the role of disintermediated wholesaler. That's exactly what HBO historically was, offering up content that others -- cable companies -- distributed, with those distributors owning the consumer relationship. Kilar very much understands the need for HBO Max to forge their own direct relationship with consumers, through their own UI and their own data-rich feedback channels. So I don't see him backing down in the fight with Amazon and Roku on that point. And my guess is that his long-term vision is that eventually *all* HBO viewing takes place inside the HBO Max app (just as *all* viewing of Netflix, Hulu and Prime Video takes place in their respective apps).

Now, as far as tweaking the cut that Roku/Amazon gets of HBO Max subscription revenues, or sharing ad inventory on the future ad-supported version of HBO Max, yeah, he might be more willing to compromise there.


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## harsh

Warner Media is made up of Turner, HBO and Warner Bros.

Turner's profits were down 12% year over year
HBO's profits were down 5.2%
Warner Bros. profits were down 3.9%

All the while, Warner Media was somehow down 22.9%. I don't think we're getting the whole story but the result seems to be that heads are rolling.

HBO's content acquisition costs went down but HBO Max is costing them a fortune as spending at HBO is up 32.5% (attributed to content acquisition for HBO Max) and their margin went from 33.4% last year to 6.9% this year. Subscriber count was up 4.91% year over year.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> Warner Media is made up of Turner, HBO and Warner Bros.
> 
> Turner's profits were down 12% year over year
> HBO's profits were down 5.2%
> Warner Bros. profits were down 3.9%
> 
> All the while, Warner Media was somehow down 22.9%. I don't think we're getting the whole story but the result seems to be that heads are rolling.


Are these the numbers you are attempting to quote?


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## billsharpe

That "Eliminations and others," whatever that means looks like the biggest contributor to the overall loss. I can understand why heads might roll.


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## James Long

Reading the full SEC filing helps explain what that category refers to. But the big thing I noticed was that harsh refers to "profits" and the numbers shown are "Revenues". The second part of that chart shows the cost of doing business that cuts in to those revenues. Revenues down 22.9% but profit was down 18.4%.








Additional tables are provided that show Turner's profit was UP 34.9%, HBO's profit was down 81.6% and Warner Bro's profit was UP 39.5%.

Here are the figures for HBO ... hopefully some of those programming costs cover future delivery.


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## AngryManMLS

To be fair one could have expected HBO's profits to be down compared to 2019 given they don't quite have something in 2020 to equal what the final season of _Game Of Thrones_ was bringing in.


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## harsh

AngryManMLS said:


> To be fair one could have expected HBO's profits to be down compared to 2019 given they don't quite have something in 2020 to equal what the final season of _Game Of Thrones_ was bringing in.


Its not fair to the subscribers (or the shareholders) that they didn't have something brewing in the pipeline.


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## techguy88

I would say the HBO unit took the brunt of the hit for HBO Max. Next quarter will be interesting to see HBO Max activations of existing subscribers since the discontinuation of HBO Go and people on the Internet finding out the workaround to use any HBO Max subscription to use the vanilla HBO app on Fire TV & Roku devices.


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## AngryManMLS

harsh said:


> Its not fair to the subscribers (or the shareholders) that they didn't have something brewing in the pipeline.


I agree to an extent. COVID-19 has basically shut down major productions but that doesn't mean HBO couldn't of had something ready given they have been preparing to launch HBO Max for YEARS. Bad planning on their part.


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## harsh

AngryManMLS said:


> COVID-19 has basically shut down major productions but that doesn't mean HBO couldn't of had something ready given they have been preparing to launch HBO Max for YEARS.


GoT was in the can 15 months ago. They had more than enough time to bring along another tentpole.

I'm not sure why many think that HBO Max requires more production effort. They've effectively stopped production on the Cinemax Originals side and a good chunk of the costs involved in the HBO family of products was acquiring third-party content for HBO Max rather than producing their own.

Adding bookkeeping and customer support systems is pretty much the difference between HBO Now+Go and HBO Max. While they clearly don't know what they're doing in either case, the costs are pretty well understood.


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## techguy88

Just realized AT&T reports full breakdowns of HBO & HBO Max on their own full quarterly earnings report (full Q2 report). Here is what the segment looks like from Q2 (April - June)










The segment is defined as:


> Domestic HBO Max and HBO Subscribers include the following categories: (1) HBO Max - Wholesale: domestic accounts that have access to HBO Max through a wholesale distributor (e.g., MVPDs including AT&T's DirecTV), (2) HBO Max - Retail: domestic accounts that have access to HBO Max and are billed directly by WarnerMedia or by a third party via in-app purchase, (3) HBO: domestic accounts that do not have access to HBO Max, and (4) HBO Commercial: domestic accounts that do not have access to HBO Max and are billed on a bulk basis (e.g., hotels, etc.). Domestic HBO Max and HBO Subscribers do not include customers that are part of a free trial. Activation occurs when an: (1) HBO Max - Retail subscriber opts into or signs up for HBO Max and has a valid payment method on file, or (2) HBO Max - Wholesale subscriber signs in to HBO Max for the first time using valid credentials.


So what they have done is moved anyone that has HBO with HBO Max included in their subscriptions to the HBO Max segment. "HBO" refers to those without HBO Max as part of their subscriptions (i.e. Amazon/Roku).

So there are a total of 26.6 million HBO Max subscribers (wholesale + retail) but only 4.1 million have actually activated the service. I would expect the "activations" number to have a decent increase with the release of Q3 numbers on October 22 since HBO Go was discontinued on July 31. Since "Activation" count as anyone who signed into HBO Max once for wholesale customers this will include people who figured out the workaround to use the basic HBO app on Fire TV & Roku with their credentials since they have to technically "sign in" to HBO Max once.


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## NashGuy

Just started watching Frayed (a Max Original import from UK+Australia) last night. Pretty good first ep!


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## techguy88

NashGuy said:


> Just started watching Frayed (a Max Original import from UK+Australia) last night. Pretty good first ep!


If you get a craving for another show from Australia, Peacock has _Five Bedrooms_ (a Peacock Original import from Australia's Network 10.)

I will check out _Frayed_ however my new fav show is _Raised by Wolves_.  The next "Max Original" I'm looking forward to is _Zach Snyder's Justice League_. 

Something tells me HBO Max will see a spike in subs & activations from all those fans that gang-tweeted this 4-hour thing into existence.


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## NashGuy

techguy88 said:


> I will check out _Frayed_ however my new fav show is _Raised by Wolves_.  The next "Max Original" I'm looking forward to is _Zach Snyder's Justice League_.
> 
> Something tells me HBO Max will see a spike in subs & activations from all those fans that gang-tweeted this 4-hour thing into existence.


I haven't watched Raised by Wolves, as I'm not typically into sci-fi, but I'm intrigued by what I've read about it. It's getting a fair amount of positive buzz.

At some point, there will be one or more breakout hits in the Max Originals lineup (as Hulu experienced with The Handmaid's Tale, for instance) and that will drive a lot more existing HBO subs to actually use the HBO Max app. And becoming the home for all that DC content, such as the Snyder Cut and those DC Universe original series, will do a lot to attract younger/non-HBO folks.


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## b4pjoe

Any one looking for a 12 month deal for HBO Max they are currently running a special for $11.99 per month for 12 months.

Promo code: SAVEFOR12


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> Any one looking for a 12 month deal for HBO Max they are currently running a special for $11.99 per month for 12 months.


The offer expires 9/25/2020.


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