# HR20 is in beta testing



## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

I've worked in the software industry all of my life.

The HR20 is currently in _*beta testing*_. Yes, I know that many of you have paid good money for it, but anything that fails this often is still a beta test unit.

I have the very reasonable expectation that no more than 1 or 2 programs a year at most will fail to record properly. This is what my TiVo unit has done for a long time now.

I am hearing on this forum of constant missed program, poor quality recordings, freezes, etc. For something in beta test, this is to be expected. And, for those of you who love trying the latest gadgets more than watching television programs, especially series, which until like movies, provide only one opportunity for recording, then being part of this beta test effort should be fun for you.

For me, I'm waiting until the beta test is over. I don't want to miss an episode of Lost or any other of my continuing series because I am using a beta test unit to record my programs.

In the meantime, please help D* shake all of those bugs out so that the HR20 can get out of beta testing into a production quality build.


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## nFavor (Oct 12, 2006)

I think beta test is being used rather loosly. I'm sure people will say that it's still in beta because it doesn't have dual live buffers, feature x, y, z, etc. 

My unit is fairly reliable. Not quite as reliable as your standard but still my unit is doing very well. Overall, I'm happy with the device and I feel it's a little hash to say it's in beta.

It's obvious there is quite a demand for the unit since many installers have to cancel appointments due to lack of HR20's. My installer mentioned that the waiting list was over 200 long.


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## Halsey101 (May 3, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> I've worked in the software industry all of my life.
> 
> The HR20 is currently in _*beta testing*_. Yes, I know that many of you have paid good money for it, but anything that fails this often is still a beta test unit.
> 
> ...


I dont have a TIVO, so I had to get the HR20.. My HR20 is working very well.. The problems I have encountered are not major problems and most of them have been resolved.. Besides, I only paid $19.95 to get my HR20 and the 5LNB Dish installed, so I would be and idiot not to take advantage of that offer...


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

nFavor said:


> I think beta test is being used rather loosly. I'm sure people will say that it's still in beta because it doesn't have dual live buffers, feature x, y, z, etc.
> 
> My unit is fairly reliable. Not quite as reliable as your standard but still my unit is doing very well. Overall, I'm happy with the device and I feel it's a little hash to say it's in beta.


Basically, a DVR does one thing. It records TV so you can watch it later. Features are a completely different issue. The purpose for a DVR is so that you can set it and forget it. That's how they sell them. Otherwise, people would just use a VCR (OK, so that doesn't work with HD, but that's irrelevant to the issue at hand). If you have to babysit the ToDo list every day to see if your shows will actually record, or if they do record, you cannot watch them due to the various unwatchable bugs, it is not yet a functioning DVR. Pretty simple. Enter "Heroes" NBC, and every Monday night it records it, and every Tuesday night, you watch it. Bam, DVR! Enter Heroes NBC, check the ToTo list, see its still there, reset the unit, see its still there, check Saturday, oops gone now, manually re-set the recording, check on Sunday, hey still there, sit by the unit on Monday night as 9:00 rolls around, check that the light goes on, go to bed, turn on in the morning, Heroes is listed in Playlist, cheer in surprise, go to work, come home, try to watch Heroes, get message "do you want to delete?" reset unit, Heroes gone from Playlist, go to backup TiVo, watch Heroes in SD, hope for better next week, IS NOT A DVR!!!!!!


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> I've worked in the software industry all of my life.
> 
> The HR20 is currently in _*beta testing*_. Yes, I know that many of you have paid good money for it, but anything that fails this often is still a beta test unit.
> 
> ...


I guess I was *beta testing* the 6 Tivos I had that 4 of were deffective...missed recordings, freezes, wouldn't boot up. Oh wait, many of you Tivo people think Tivo's are 100%. Also, the all mighty Tivo S3 is in *beta testing* too, as noted by the hundreds of posts of trouble on their site.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

nFavor said:


> I think beta test is being used rather loosly. I'm sure people will say that it's still in beta because it doesn't have dual live buffers, feature x, y, z, etc.
> 
> My unit is fairly reliable. Not quite as reliable as your standard but still my unit is doing very well. Overall, I'm happy with the device and I feel it's a little hash to say it's in beta.
> 
> It's obvious there is quite a demand for the unit since many installers have to cancel appointments due to lack of HR20's. My installer mentioned that the waiting list was over 200 long.


Apparently we will have to agree to disagree. Given the types of problems reported here and experienced by myself, I have to say we are beta testers at best. My first VCR never locked up over 10 years of very heavy use. None of my TVs have locked up. I had one car lockup from a software problem, but that was also a bad sensor reporting to the CPU.

Lockups this common, affecting so many people, for a consumer electronic device is extremely bad form. I don't care how new the device is. I expect clocks, vcrs, tvs, appliances, and other consumer electronic stuff to work with high reliability.

And it must cost D* dearly to have stability this low. All the extra calls to CSRs, worries that a software upgrade to the HR20 could make a remote control stop working with the TV, confusion, and FUD start to abound. Their credibility will therefore suffer causing another round of costs: wall street will notice, investors will be thinking twice about buying D*, etc.

Yes, I am painting a very negative picture of how this could go, but I have seen the effects on the reported calls to CSRs. I also know that as a provider or manufacturer you never want to give your customers or your investors any extra reasons to think about looking at the competitor.

To balance this, I think the product will stabilize and I hope it will be soon. There are some very good features. Now its a matter of execution.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

nFavor said:


> I think beta test is being used rather loosly. I'm sure people will say that it's still in beta because it doesn't have dual live buffers, feature x, y, z, etc.
> 
> My unit is fairly reliable. Not quite as reliable as your standard but still my unit is doing very well. Overall, I'm happy with the device and I feel it's a little hash to say it's in beta.
> 
> It's obvious there is quite a demand for the unit since many installers have to cancel appointments due to lack of HR20's. My installer mentioned that the waiting list was over 200 long.


I am very happy that the HR20 is in high demand since that means the beta testing will finish sooner.

Although I think having a real 30-second skip (not a slip) is a must-have feature, my main complaints aren't about the feature set at all but about the stability.

I expect to lose no more than 1 or maybe 2 programs a year -- we have 70 season passes currently -- due to recorder problems. It's clear from reading this forum than the HR20 isn't even close to what I'd consider a production unit and that most people are experience a failure rate much higher than 1 or 2 failed recordings a year.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

sigma1914 said:


> I guess I was *beta testing* the 6 Tivos I had that 4 of were deffective...missed recordings, freezes, wouldn't boot up. Oh wait, many of you Tivo people think Tivo's are 100%. Also, the all mighty Tivo S3 is in *beta testing* too, as noted by the hundreds of posts of trouble on their site.


Yes, I would say you were beta testing your Tivos. And if the S3 is behaving as badly as the HR20, I would call that beta testing too.

islesfan said it very well:



islesfan said:


> Basically, a DVR does one thing. It records TV so you can watch it later. Features are a completely different issue. The purpose for a DVR is so that you can set it and forget it. That's how they sell them. Otherwise, people would just use a VCR (OK, so that doesn't work with HD, but that's irrelevant to the issue at hand). If you have to babysit the ToDo list every day to see if your shows will actually record, or if they do record, you cannot watch them due to the various unwatchable bugs, it is not yet a functioning DVR. Pretty simple. Enter "Heroes" NBC, and every Monday night it records it, and every Tuesday night, you watch it. Bam, DVR! Enter Heroes NBC, check the ToTo list, see its still there, reset the unit, see its still there, check Saturday, oops gone now, manually re-set the recording, check on Sunday, hey still there, sit by the unit on Monday night as 9:00 rolls around, check that the light goes on, go to bed, turn on in the morning, Heroes is listed in Playlist, cheer in surprise, go to work, come home, try to watch Heroes, get message "do you want to delete?" reset unit, Heroes gone from Playlist, go to backup TiVo, watch Heroes in SD, hope for better next week, IS NOT A DVR!!!!!!


Cheers,
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Although I think having a real 30-second skip (not a slip) is a must-have feature, my main complaints aren't about the feature set at all but about the stability.


Then I'll burst the bubble... you are probably NEVER going to see a SKIP shorter then the Skip to Tick, feature in any of the DirecTV DVR+ series of DVRs.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Then I'll burst the bubble... you are probably NEVER going to see a SKIP shorter then the Skip to Tick, feature in any of the DirecTV DVR+ series of DVRs.


Call me confused. I just want to quickly skip past commercials, as I do now on my TiVo. I don't care how fast I skip to the tick. That's not what I want to do very often.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Call me confused. I just want to quickly skip past commercials, as I do now on my TiVo. I don't care how fast I skip to the tick. That's not what I want to do very often.


I know... but I am saying... you are NEVER going to see a 30s SKIP, or 60s SKIP, or anything that jumps from one point to another, for a time frame that will allow you to jump over a commercial brake with one or two pushes of a button.

The current SLIP is as about as fast as it is going to get.

There is a "reason" why TiVo does not have that feature listed as an official feature of the unit, nor is it enabled by default.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Call me confused. I just want to quickly skip past commercials, as I do now on my TiVo. I don't care how fast I skip to the tick. That's not what I want to do very often.


Is 10 seconds too long? That's about all it takes.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Is 10 seconds too long? That's about all it takes.


Yes it most certainly IS too long! I can easily do it 2 seconds with TiVo. 10 seconds is not only 5 times longer, it makes the skipping much less seemless.

Still, if the only problem was that the HR20 didn't have a real skip feature, that would not make a beta test unit, which is what this thread is about.

Be unable to depend on my recorder not to miss or mess up recordings of my shows is my main concern.


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Call me confused. I just want to quickly skip past commercials, as I do now on my TiVo. I don't care how fast I skip to the tick. That's not what I want to do very often.


Why do you think advertisers are building 'DVR-enabled' ads, which feature static or highly repetitive graphic content? So that even if you 'slip' over it, the ad will still hit you.


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## Halsey101 (May 3, 2006)

To be very honest, I think A LOT of the problems with the HR20 is that poeple just dont know how they operate.... I have had the 20 for a little over 2 months now, and when I first got it, I thought it was junk.... But, now that I understand how it works, and my HR20 does not miss a beat as far as recordings... Like I said before, the other issues that I have, are minor...


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Halsey101 said:


> To be very honest, I think A LOT of the problems with the HR20 is that poeple just dont know how they operate.... I have had the 20 for a little over 2 months now, and when I first got it, I thought it was junk.... But, now that I understand how it works, and my HR20 does not miss a beat as far as recordings... Like I said before, the other issues that I have, are minor...


Even if the majority of the initial problems reported to D* are educational in nature (user error), we who have a clue are still beta testers. There are common problems, well and articulately described on these forums, that are of a nature as to strongly suggest that the unit was not well baked before release. (Boy, did I soften that statement...)

For instance, while I've had the occasional time that I've scratched my head over something until I remembered how the HR20 works, that doesn't explain multiple lockups. (In an environment where my Tivos are currently working fine.) Nor does it explain why recordings are only a minute long, when the same prioritizer list works fine after a reboot. Or why recordings seem to be successful, only to be blank or otherwise unwatchable.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Halsey101 (May 3, 2006)

tibber said:


> Even if the majority of the initial problems reported to D* are educational in nature (user error), we who have a clue are still beta testers. There are common problems, well and articulately described on these forums, that are of a nature as to strongly suggest that the unit was not well baked before release. (Boy, did I soften that statement...)
> 
> For instance, while I've had the occasional time that I've scratched my head over something until I remembered how the HR20 works, that doesn't explain multiple lockups. (In an environment where my Tivos are currently working fine.) Nor does it explain why recordings are only a minute long, when the same prioritizer list works fine after a reboot. Or why recordings seem to be successful, only to be blank or otherwise unwatchable.
> 
> ...


I am SICK of hearing about TIVO.... You have to remember, TIVO has been around for a long time, and the HR20 hasnt... If you have "multiple" lock-ups, maybe you need a new receiver..

I just wish I would hear the same complaining about everytime FORD has a "recall" on their vehicles.... Thats why I buy Toyotas'.... When a "new" product comes out, I dont care what it is, there are going to be problems.. The question is,,,, how fast do they get them fixed...


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

tibber said:


> Even if the majority of the initial problems reported to D* are educational in nature (user error), we who have a clue are still beta testers. There are common problems, well and articulately described on these forums, that are of a nature as to strongly suggest that the unit was not well baked before release. (Boy, did I soften that statement...)
> 
> For instance, while I've had the occasional time that I've scratched my head over something until I remembered how the HR20 works, that doesn't explain multiple lockups. (In an environment where my Tivos are currently working fine.) Nor does it explain why recordings are only a minute long, when the same prioritizer list works fine after a reboot. Or why recordings seem to be successful, only to be blank or otherwise unwatchable.
> 
> ...


Between my dad's household and mine, we've got 4 heavily used TiVo units.

Number of unwatchable recordings during the last 12 months: 0

Number of recordings that failed to record during the last 12 months: 0

Number of lockups during the last 12 months: 0

The figures are probably unchanged if I said 24 months, but memory isn't that good.


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## Halsey101 (May 3, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Between my dad's household and mine, we've got 4 heavily used TiVo units.
> 
> Number of unwatchable recordings during the last 12 months: 0
> 
> ...


Its a good thing you dont work for NASA... Being "perfect" is tough..


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## Quattro (Aug 1, 2006)

Remember you're usually only going to hear from people with problems. I've had my HR20 for a month. No complaints at all.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Between my dad's household and mine, we've got 4 heavily used TiVo units.
> 
> Number of unwatchable recordings during the last 12 months: 0
> 
> ...


Steve, I think that your results are slightly better than mine.  IIRC, about 10-15 months ago I had one OTA HD show that was unlistenable, but that wasn't the Tivo's fault nor D* for that matter. The local stations have had lots of growing pains setting up their HD broadcasts and that episode was on a station where one of the stations engineers or staff apologized on the local AVSforum about their screw up. But the unit didn't lockup... 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Halsey101 said:


> I am SICK of hearing about TIVO.... You have to remember, TIVO has been around for a long time, and the HR20 hasnt... If you have "multiple" lock-ups, maybe you need a new receiver..
> 
> I just wish I would hear the same complaining about everytime FORD has a "recall" on their vehicles.... Thats why I buy Toyotas'.... When a "new" product comes out, I dont care what it is, there are going to be problems.. The question is,,,, how fast do they get them fixed...


Gee, I wonder why it is that people constantly refer the new D* DVR to the old D* DVR? Could it be that they have nothing else to use as a benchmark?

That's why _I_ buy Toyota's.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

I've never had an issue - ever - while using a Tivo-based DVR, whether it was Sony, Philips, Hughes, whatever. However, despite some very minor glitches (which were likely initial HDMI handshake probs), I haven't had a problem with the HR-20 either. Guess I've just been a lucky DVR user. Once you get the hang of the HR-20 features (which really overall are very similar to Tivo), and realize that it's not Tivo software, it's D* software, you do actually start to appreciate the nuances. Of course, for those of you who aren't getting basic functionality, it's obviously reasonable to assume these "nuances" are irrelevant for you for now. If I spent all my time just trying to get a show to record, the other "features" wouldn't matter. If and when you do get past those problems, you'll finally have time to appreciate that the functionality is overall not that bad, and there are some benefits too.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I know... but I am saying... you are NEVER going to see a 30s SKIP, or 60s SKIP, or anything that jumps from one point to another, for a time frame that will allow you to jump over a commercial brake with one or two pushes of a button.
> 
> The current SLIP is as about as fast as it is going to get.
> 
> There is a "reason" why TiVo does not have that feature listed as an official feature of the unit, nor is it enabled by default.


For free TV I can see where people doing comercials would want us to not have skip. But we are paying for DirecTV service are we not? As a subscriber paying real money I would expect that if I do not want comercials I have the perogative. We are paying for DVR service correct??? Heck I would pay an additional $1 per month to have skip.

I am sure the D* DVR people have some deal with the comercial industry so that we *MUST* have slip instead of skip. But I want skip like I had with ultimate tv.


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## Halsey101 (May 3, 2006)

Marcia_Brady said:


> Gee, I wonder why it is that people constantly refer the new D* DVR to the old D* DVR? Could it be that they have nothing else to use as a benchmark?
> 
> That's why _I_ buy Toyota's.


I guess I dont understand what YOU are trying to say ??? Are you talking about the R15 as the "old D* DVR, becuase thats just a little over a year old ??? Please clarify when you say "old D* DVR ?? "


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Canis Lupus said:


> I've never had an issue - ever - while using a Tivo-based DVR, whether it was Sony, Philips, Hughes, whatever. However, despite some very minor glitches (which were likely initial HDMI handshake probs), I haven't had a problem with the HR-20 either. Guess I've just been a lucky DVR user. Once you get the hang of the HR-20 features (which really overall are very similar to Tivo), and realize that it's not Tivo software, it's D* software, you do actually start to appreciate the nuances. Of course, for those of you who aren't getting basic functionality, it's obviously reasonable to assume these "nuances" are irrelevant for you for now. If I spent all my time just trying to get a show to record, the other "features" wouldn't matter. If and when you do get past those problems, you'll finally have time to appreciate that the functionality is overall not that bad, and there are some benefits too.


Canis Lupus,

Delicately put, good job. I see some of the features and nuances I think you're refering too already. Even in the midst of my units' trying to become boat anchors, I like the ability to set defaults for recordings, 30 sec. SLIP, and understand the common UI across DVR and receiver. Makes telling explaining things to the rest of the family easier. And, I'm sure there are other things I've liked that I can't recall at the moment.

Cheers,
Tom


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## SJ Bear Hunter (Nov 19, 2005)

I think we are all Master Beta testers..........Hmmmm that sounds kind of stange! :eek2:


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

SJ Bear Hunter said:


> I think we are all Master Beta testers..........Hmmmm that sounds kind of stange! :eek2:


I think you'd better edit that post before the moderators find out... 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Halsey101 (May 3, 2006)

SJ Bear Hunter said:


> I think we are all Master Beta testers..........Hmmmm that sounds kind of stange! :eek2:


Wether we like it or not, EVERYONE on the Planet is a "betta tester."


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gcisko said:


> For free TV I can see where people doing comercials would want us to not have skip. But we are paying for DirecTV service are we not? As a subscriber paying real money I would expect that if I do not want comercials I have the perogative. We are paying for DVR service correct??? Heck I would pay an additional $1 per month to have skip.
> 
> I am sure the D* DVR people have some deal with the comercial industry so that we *MUST* have slip instead of skip. But I want skip like I had with ultimate tv.


You are not paying DirecTV for the content, just the service to get the content to you. And that is where the difference is.

(With the exception of PPV, and some of the other special programs... hence why no commercials).

But that is a debate for an entirely different day.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Plus as Earl mentioned in another thread (which I totally agree with) the slip feature actually can be a benefit - like when you're trying to catch up on a paused football game. That 30 slip works great for shooting forward between plays while still being able to catch whether there was something during that slip you actually wanted to see. I do this all the time now. For regular commercials, you do start to get used to hitting that button the proper number of times to get you close depending on the type of program your watching and the commercial break lengths. Of course, the networks counteract your intuitiveness by jumbling break lengths with a mix of 30s, 15s, 10s, and 4s to trip you up. 



Earl Bonovich said:


> You are not paying DirecTV for the content, just the service to get the content to you. And that is where the difference is.
> 
> (With the exception of PPV, and some of the other special programs... hence why no commercials).
> 
> But that is a debate for an entirely different day.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Halsey101 said:


> I guess I dont understand what YOU are trying to say ??? Are you talking about the R15 as the "old D* DVR, becuase thats just a little over a year old ??? Please clarify when you say "old D* DVR ?? "


You've stated that you're "SICK of hearing about Tivo" in regards to people comparing it to the HR20 (the _new _D* DVR). You used a Ford analogy.

Other than the HR10 (the _old_ D* DVR), people have _nothing else to use as comparison_, thus your analogy doesn't add up IMO.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Marcia_Brady said:


> You've stated that you're "SICK of hearing about Tivo" in regards to people comparing it to the HR20 (the _new _D* DVR). You used a Ford analogy.
> 
> Other than the HR10 (the _old_ D* DVR), people have _nothing else to use as comparison_, thus your analogy doesn't add up IMO.


Seems like there have been many other comparisons: UltimateTV, replay, Tivo Stand alone, DTivos, Tivo S3, Moxie, and others bandied about.

While I was a fairly early DTivo user, I must have missed all real "fun" cuz mine was very stable right up front. But I had dual tuners immediately, so I know I missed the time of single tuner. So it too might have had me calling it a beta test. (And since I've owned all my Tivos rather than leased, I would have been VERY upset rather than patiently, but forcefully, reminding D* that the HR20 is still broken.)

I used to not buy toyota, their parts were too expensive 20 years ago. But now, their reliability, parts availability, and price points are all excellent. So I consider buying Toyota. (Haven't purchased a new car in 5 years and don't need to now. But I will strongly consider toyota when the time comes.) So too, D* can recover from these problems.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Halsey101 (May 3, 2006)

Marcia_Brady said:


> You've stated that you're "SICK of hearing about Tivo" in regards to people comparing it to the HR20 (the _new _D* DVR). You used a Ford analogy.
> 
> Other than the HR10 (the _old_ D* DVR), people have _nothing else to use as comparison_, thus your analogy doesn't add up IMO.


 There is no "comparison" needed... My point in using the Ford analogy was, when a new product comes out, there are ALWAYS unforseen problems...


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## gsel1966 (Oct 20, 2006)

I think we should all remember ITS JUST TV! The world is not going to end if you miss an episode of Lost or Desparate Houswives (BTW - Reruns are not that far off).


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## Veloce (Nov 16, 2006)

It's not about it being "just TV". It's about paying for a device that doesn't work as advertised. The proper thing is for D* to credit me my entire $200, and then to pay me for being a beta tester, say free service until the unit never misses recording a show.
C


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

gsel1966 said:


> I think we should all remember ITS JUST TV! The world is not going to end if you miss an episode of Lost or Desparate Houswives (BTW - Reruns are not that far off).


As a software manager, I would not agreed to release a product this unstable into production. I might have widen the beta test program to try to shake more of the bugs that proper development should caught in the begining. Clearly, however, the manager in charge has your view of importance of the product's quality. I have higher -- and I believe quite resonable -- expectations that a requested recording should record, each and every time, with very, very few expections per year.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Halsey101 said:


> To be very honest, I think A LOT of the problems with the HR20 is that poeple just dont know how they operate.... I have had the 20 for a little over 2 months now, and when I first got it, I thought it was junk.... But, now that I understand how it works, and my HR20 does not miss a beat as far as recordings... Like I said before, the other issues that I have, are minor...


We record and watch about 3-4 hours of local channels every day.

How much of your TV watching is local channels?

And how many times and over what period has your until failed to record, froze up, or otherwise prevented you from seeing what you asked it to record?


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

OK Steve, you're wonderful and whomever is running the software development team at DIRECTV sucks.

You've made your point.

Give it a rest.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

glennb said:


> OK Steve, you're wonderful and whomever is running the software development team at DIRECTV sucks.
> 
> You've made your point.
> 
> Give it a rest.


Don't forget, his Tivos are perfect, therefor, all are perfect. _*Except the 4 I had to return*_


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Veloce said:


> It's not about it being "just TV". It's about paying for a device that doesn't work as advertised. The proper thing is for D* to credit me my entire $200, and then to pay me for being a beta tester, say free service until the unit never misses recording a show.
> C





glennb said:


> OK Steve, you're wonderful and whomever is running the software development team at DIRECTV sucks.
> 
> You've made your point.
> 
> Give it a rest.


Glenn,

If you think that was my point then I clearly did NOT make my point. It has NOTHING to do with my abilities. Any first year computer science student learns about code quality and how to test it.

If a car company finds a common problem on a model, even if it occurs on just a dozen or so units, they do a massive recall. The public would be outraged if they didn't. (As an aside, I don't worry about my car starting or my TiVo recording -- it just happens day in and day out. Most problems are trivial and when something major breakdowns, it is very rare.)

If D* wanted to ship out a unit as buggy in the most fundamental thing it does (recording a program correctly), then they should call all of the units beta test and not charge for any of them.

Once they can successfully and consistently do a production build of the unit, that is the time to start charging.

Finally, I applaud all of you who are beta testing the unit and paying D* for the priviledge. You will help them eventually get the unit up to production quality, and then I can buy it and use it to consistently record programs successfully.


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## mjs31 (Sep 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Then I'll burst the bubble... you are probably NEVER going to see a SKIP shorter then the Skip to Tick, feature in any of the DirecTV DVR+ series of DVRs.


And I am one that actually likes the new slip better than the skip. I can hit it 5 times and actually stop it just as it hits the start of the show. With the skip you can run past it much easier which can actually take more time to get where you want to.


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## mjs31 (Sep 22, 2006)

Marcia_Brady said:


> You've stated that you're "SICK of hearing about Tivo" in regards to people comparing it to the HR20 (the _new _D* DVR). You used a Ford analogy.
> 
> Other than the HR10 (the _old_ D* DVR), people have _nothing else to use as comparison_, thus your analogy doesn't add up IMO.


Ultimate TV!!! had it for several years and loved it. Would have put Tivo to shame had Microsoft stayed with it.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

gsel1966 said:


> I think we should all remember ITS JUST TV! The world is not going to end if you miss an episode of Lost or Desparate Houswives (BTW - Reruns are not that far off).


FYI, with the cash coming in from DVD sales, reruns are quickly going the way of the dinosaur. Studios aren't stupid.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

gsel1966 said:


> I think we should all remember ITS JUST TV! The world is not going to end if you miss an episode of Lost or Desparate Houswives (BTW - Reruns are not that far off).


And enough with the "It's just TV" cliche. We've all heard it 1,000 times before. People know it's just TV, but thanks for the late-breaking news.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

glennb said:


> OK Steve, you're wonderful and whomever is running the software development team at DIRECTV sucks.
> 
> You've made your point.
> 
> Give it a rest.


Oooh, there's a new sheriff in town ("spoot....DING!").

Heed his warning Steve, cuz I think he's one bad dude what means bidness!:lol:



sigma1914 said:


> Don't forget, his Tivos are perfect, therefor, all are perfect. _*Except the 4 I had to return*_


Who cares about the 4 Tivo's you had to return? All I care about right now is my HR20, and we're on our 3rd. Why does this always have to evolve into an "us vs them" argument?


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## Dave_S (Jan 7, 2006)

Well the HR20 is not the only Directv capable HD DVR with issues right now. Accord to a poll on TC, 101 out of 155 respondents have had reboots and lockups on their HR10s with 6.3a. Not to mention audio drops on various OTA channels. One of the theories I have seen on both forums trying to explain why these devices have these types of issues is how they recover from errors in the video stream. Granted the HR10 was rock solid under 3.15, but there have been some folks saying they have recently seen some of the dropouts etc with 3.15. Is it possible that there is more to the story than we know? What else has DTV done in the background that could be possibly contributing to the problems that are widely being seen on both of their HD DVRs? I know that the HR20 is not a mature product and has a way to go, but is it possible that there are other DTV issues outside of the HR20 that are exacerbating the problems with the HR20?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Dave_S said:


> Well the HR20 is not the only Directv capable HD DVR with issues right now. Accord to a poll on TC, 101 out of 155 respondents have had reboots and lockups on their HR10s with 6.3a. Not to mention audio drops on various OTA channels. One of the theories I have seen on both forums trying to explain why these devices have these types of issues is how they recover from errors in the video stream. Granted the HR10 was rock solid under 3.15, but there have been some folks saying they have recently seen some of the dropouts etc with 3.15. Is it possible that there is more to the story than we know? What else has DTV done in the background that could be possibly contributing to the problems that are widely being seen on both of their HD DVRs? I know that the HR20 is not a mature product and has a way to go, but is it possible that there are other DTV issues outside of the HR20 that are exacerbating the problems with the HR20?


But also in those same reports, a LOT of those "reports" are from people receiving OTA signals, which is 100% out of DirecTV's control.

Welcome to a "technology" that is still going through changes.
The affiliates are still updating their hardware, software, ect.... so that does introduce "changes"


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Dave_S said:


> Well the HR20 is not the only Directv capable HD DVR with issues right now. Accord to a poll on TC, 101 out of 155 respondents have had reboots and lockups on their HR10s with 6.3a. Not to mention audio drops on various OTA channels. One of the theories I have seen on both forums trying to explain why these devices have these types of issues is how they recover from errors in the video stream. Granted the HR10 was rock solid under 3.15, but there have been some folks saying they have recently seen some of the dropouts etc with 3.15. Is it possible that there is more to the story than we know?


As I see it there are at least 3 major parts (HR20 hardware, HR20 software, and the MPEG4 video stream from the locals). All three of these need to be extensively tested together in order to get the unit to production quality.


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## Halsey101 (May 3, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> We record and watch about 3-4 hours of local channels every day.
> 
> How much of your TV watching is local channels?
> 
> And how many times and over what period has your until failed to record, froze up, or otherwise prevented you from seeing what you asked it to record?


Actually, my HR20 has never "failed" to record a program... If it does not reacord a program, its simply because it was a "repeat." It has froze a time or two, but thats about it... I have had the HR20 for about 3 months...

I dont watch much of my "local" stations...


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Halsey101 said:


> Actually, my HR20 has never "failed" to record a program... If it does not reacord a program, its simply because it was a "repeat." It has froze a time or two, but thats about it... I have had the HR20 for about 3 months...
> 
> I dont watch much of my "local" stations...


Halsey101,

Be careful about them lockups. If it locks up on the first day of a vacation, you will most likely not get any recordings after that point. Or you might get lots of 1 minute recordings.

Regards,
Tom


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> I am very happy that the HR20 is in high demand since that means the beta testing will finish sooner.
> 
> Although I think having a real 30-second skip (not a slip) is a must-have feature, my main complaints aren't about the feature set at all but about the stability.
> 
> I expect to lose no more than 1 or maybe 2 programs a year -- we have 70 season passes currently -- due to recorder problems. It's clear from reading this forum than the HR20 isn't even close to what I'd consider a production unit and that most people are experience a failure rate much higher than 1 or 2 failed recordings a year.


You definitely want to stay away if you have 70 season passes. The HR-20 is currently limited at 50. 

I'm pretty satisfied with my HR-20. I consider myself in the category of those who are satisfied with the product>. I miss the 30 sec skip I had on my Dish DVR, BUT in all fairness, the SLIP feature was recently improved and works well now. I still like SKIP better, BUT the SLIP has proven to be a close second IMO.

I too had some rough roads with the HR-20. Some of the previous software releases were a disaster and I mostly agreed with others on the board. I too felt like a beta tester for awhile but you have to hand a little bit of credit to DTV. Had they waited to release the HR-20, we'd be *****ing about that.

DTV made a business decision. This holiday season, HDTV's are selling like hotcakes. They needed their product on the market and they decided to release it. Was it a smart decision? I'm not going to comment since so many opinions are different and I'm bound to upset some folks. 

As the consumer, I went into this knowing (from my work in the software/web development field) to have a backup in place. IF IF IF I was a consumer that had NO KNOWLEDGE that this was a "new" product I might be singing a different tune but in all fairness, most of us on this board are early adopters.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Radio Enginerd said:


> You definitely want to stay away if you have 70 season passes. The HR-20 is currently limited at 50.


Actually we have exactly 86 season passes on our 200GB system from Weaknees.

Since the HR20 has room for 200 hours of SD, the same amount I have right now, it makes no sense to limit the season passes to some arbitrary number like 50. That was just a poor software design.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Actually we have exactly 86 season passes on our 200GB system from Weaknees.
> 
> Since the HR20 has room for 200 hours of SD, the same amount I have right now, it makes no sense to limit the season passes to some arbitrary number like 50. That was just a poor software design.


I happen to agree with you that a limit of 50 SP/SL's is pretty low. I've stopped spending time wondering WHY they set that limit. I consider myself an average user and have already been able to set 38 SP's/SL's and I'm starting to look at that 50 limit and wonder what I'm going to cancel. HOPEFULLY they'll make that improvement to the software by the time I hit that point.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Radio Enginerd said:


> I too had some rough roads with the HR-20. Some of the previous software releases were a disaster and I mostly agreed with others on the board. I too felt like a beta tester for awhile but you have to hand a little bit of credit to DTV. Had they waited to release the HR-20, we'd be *****ing about that.


I've bought some nice cars before on the first year they were released. I don't think I ever wished that I could have bought them a year earlier before the cars were actually working reliably. I'm glad the car companies I bought them from tested them properly before selling them, even if the companies lost money by waiting.

Selling unreliable products as soon as possible may have a short-term benefit to the bottom line but is questionable as a long term business strategy.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Steve Rhodes said:


> As I see it there are at least 3 major parts (HR20 hardware, HR20 software, and the MPEG4 video stream from the locals). All three of these need to be extensively tested together in order to get the unit to production quality.


Wait just one minute here!

You come here and stir up all this crap about a piece of equipment YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE?!?!?!?

Not everyone has issues.. I suggest you stick a cork in it until you can speak from experience.

:nono2:


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> Wait just one minute here!
> 
> You come here and stir up all this crap about a piece of equipment YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE?!?!?!?
> 
> ...


Some people have nothing better to do with their time... I guess.

So far, mine's been flawless. No lockups, no nothing. But I also did a full format after it upgraded itself.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Meklos said:


> But I also did a full format after it upgraded itself.


I think you're onto something...

Let's make a comparison... With your home PC, there is only so many times you can patch your system before it's helpful to just format the drive and reinstall the OS. I can't think of how many times I've done this and seen a huge performance increase in my system. I haven't done this with my HR-20 but I think the same logic applies.

I have yet to reformat, BUT *IF* I start having problems you can bet I will totally do so.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

I haven't either because I've had so few problems so far, but I'm powering through my recordings and keeping those at a minimum, and also not getting too deep into SLs just in case I need to do it. I'm holding out for the OTA release as well since many of the network SLs will have to be changed anyway, plus if OTA brings problems that only a format will fix, I won't feel I went to far down the road with it.

BTW, the comparison is to Windoze. Doesn't apply to my Mac .:grin:



Radio Enginerd said:


> I think you're onto something...
> 
> Let's make a comparison... With your home PC, there is only so many times you can patch your system before it's helpful to just format the drive and reinstall the OS. I can't think of how many times I've done this and seen a huge performance increase in my system. I haven't done this with my HR-20 but I think the same logic applies.
> 
> I have yet to reformat, BUT *IF* I start having problems you can bet I will totally do so.


----------



## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Canis Lupus said:


> BTW, the comparison is to Windoze. Doesn't apply to my Mac .:grin:


Make sure the mouse running your Mac has enough cheese when you get home from work today! :lol: 1-button mouse, I still can't understand that.

I'm with you; I'm waiting until the activation of OTA. If things start going south for me, I'll reformat and be done with it.

Wouldn't it be super cool if you could back up your SL's to a USB thumb drive? Now THAT would be very innovative!


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> Wait just one minute here!
> 
> You come here and stir up all this crap about a piece of equipment YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE?!?!?!?
> 
> ...


I own several D* DVRs. I'm trying to determine when it makes sense to upgrade from my TiVo based ones to the latest D* unit (HR20). Once I do that I will also get an HD TV at the same time

My purpose in getting an HR20 is to watch network television shows. I am not interested in playing with new technology or in being a beta tester. Some of you are, and I respect that.

I am glad I read the posts on these forums first. I am much happier waiting until the unit is a production quality before I buy it. As a long-time D* customer, I don't feel the need to buy the unit in order to be able to complain about the quality. The reliability problems are obvious.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Steve Rhodes said:


> I don't feel the need to buy the unit in order to be able to complain about the quality. The reliability problems are obvious.


You can't make a sound judgement without specific experience, and no, a different make/model of equipment doesn't count. If you are going to base your opinion solely on the resarch of others you should also pay attention to the people who have said that their HR20's work just fine.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Radio Enginerd said:


> Make sure the mouse running your Mac has enough cheese when you get home from work today! :lol: 1-button mouse, I still can't understand that.
> 
> I'm with you; I'm waiting until the activation of OTA. If things start going south for me, I'll reformat and be done with it.
> 
> Wouldn't it be super cool if you could back up your SL's to a USB thumb drive? Now THAT would be very innovative!


:lol: Yes! Thumb drive capability to not only back everything up, but install software - and yes - at least defrag and other utilities to potentially prevent the format in the first place. 

BTW - Logitech Cordless Optical Scrolling 2-Button Mouse. Plug and play on a Mac.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> I own several D* DVRs. I'm trying to determine when it makes sense to upgrade from my TiVo based ones to the latest D* unit (HR20). Once I do that I will also get an HD TV at the same time
> 
> My purpose in getting an HR20 is to watch network television shows. I am not interested in playing with new technology or in being a beta tester. Some of you are, and I respect that.
> 
> I am glad I read the posts on these forums first. I am much happier waiting until the unit is a production quality before I buy it. As a long-time D* customer, I don't feel the need to buy the unit in order to be able to complain about the quality. The reliability problems are obvious.


It is perfectly reasonable to ask questions before buying. The HR20 is not yet out of beta testing, and if you hang around here, you will get a feel for when it is actually ready for release. Then you can get one. Seems logical to me.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> You can't make a sound judgement without specific experience, and no, a different make/model of equipment doesn't count. If you are going to base your opinion solely on the resarch of others you should also pay attention to the people who have said that their HR20's work just fine.


I don't care that SOME units work just fine.

What I want to know is what is probability that I'll be able to record 30-40 hours per week of local channels with less than 1 or 2 lost (freeze up while I am out, bad recording, missed recording, etc.) per year. That's what I have now.

It's clear from reading these posts that the probability that I'll be able to do this is NOT high.

I'm not sure how many people have these trouble-free units, and I'm not sure how many of these people who have them are using them as heavily as we do and are recording MPEG 4 local channels. I suspect the local channels add a whole new dimension to the reliability equation.


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## jayvista (Oct 19, 2006)

I take offense and disagree with the title of the post "HR20 is in beta testing". I most whole-heartedly disagree .... the HR20 is currently in *ALPHA* testing!

After it completes ALPHA testing, it will then be in BETA testing .... which will be followed by GA (General Availability) probably within 12-14 months.

For a device (or software) to even make it to BETA stage, it must be feature complete, and have considerable stability. DirecTV threw this box out to the public before it was even finished. They are scrambling to finish features that were promised. And in the meantime, unknowing consumers were punished by actually PAYING $$ to test their ALPHA unit.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

The people who have issues seem to be the loudest screamers. Many of those folks have valid complaints. Many do not.. 

Steve, do what you want. Please know that complaining about a piece of equipment not in your possession might tend to make you look like an idiot.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> You can't make a sound judgement without specific experience, and no, a different make/model of equipment doesn't count. If you are going to base your opinion solely on the resarch of others you should also pay attention to the people who have said that their HR20's work just fine.





Steve Rhodes said:


> I don't care that SOME units work just fine.
> 
> What I want to know is what is probability that I'll be able to record 30-40 hours per week of local channels with less than 1 or 2 lost (freeze up while I am out, bad recording, missed recording, etc.) per year. That's what I have now.
> 
> ...


Actually, if any of you have a trouble-free HR20 and are successfully recording 30-40 good hours per week of MPEG4 local channels, PLEASE speak up. I'd really like to know. My purpose is not to knock the HR20, but it is just to ascertain its actual reliability used in the way I will be using it.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

jayvista said:


> I take offense and disagree with the title of the post "HR20 is in beta testing". I most whole-heartedly disagree .... the HR20 is currently in *ALPHA* testing!


ALPHA? What?

What features have they been adding? Are you commenting on the lack of OTA?


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Actually, if any of you have a trouble-free HR20 and are successfully recording 30-40 good hours per week of MPEG4 local channels, PLEASE speak up. I'd really like to know. My purpose is not to knock the HR20, but it is just to ascertain its actual reliability used in the way I will be using it.


Since OxEF I've been successfully recording without incident. 80% of my recordings are MPEG-4.

You asked, I replied.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

+1


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Neil Derryberry said:


> You can't make a sound judgement without specific experience, and no, a different make/model of equipment doesn't count. If you are going to base your opinion solely on the resarch of others you should also pay attention to the people who have said that their HR20's work just fine.


I'll disagree with you on that one. I believe I've made a sound decision in keeping my HR10's and passing on the HR20 to this point. I made that decision based on my experience with the R15. Some comparison of makes/models are valid. I watch closely to the "happenings" on the HR20 side and notice the large simularities in the development/release/test/update histories in both the R15 and HR20.

Listening to those with problems and those without on either platform are the same. I've had some terrible times with the R15 and other times, typically after a reformat, when it works as well as it can, given many of it's know bugs.


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## packfan909 (Oct 6, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> I don't care that SOME units work just fine.
> 
> What I want to know is what is probability that I'll be able to record 30-40 hours per week of local channels with less than 1 or 2 lost (freeze up while I am out, bad recording, missed recording, etc.) per year. That's what I have now.
> 
> ...


I think you are setting the bar pretty high here!

Many non-machine things can interfere with a recording.

- Schedule changes
- Bad weather
- Power failure
- Issues with the station or network broadcast
- Issues with the uplink facility
- User error

Good thing we have:

- Summer rerun season
- DVD release of shows
- Internet streaming

Digital TV and DVR's are fairly new technologies. Both are <=5 years old. There are going to be bugs.

It's just TV!


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Neil Derryberry said:


> You can't make a sound judgement without specific experience, and no, a different make/model of equipment doesn't count. If you are going to base your opinion solely on the resarch of others you should also pay attention to the people who have said that their HR20's work just fine.


I'm confused, Neil. First you state that you have to have experience with THE item. Then you state that he should listen to both parties. Which is it? He has to have THE item or he can listen to the people on the forums?

Since this device isn't covered by Consumer Reports yet but CNET did note that there are several users having major issues, isn't that enough experience albeit indirect for a sound judgment to be made at this time under his particular set of circumstances?

I think he's done a great job of analysis. Yes some people have had great experiences with their HR20. As I do not know percentages, I can't say many or most. And some people have had abysmal experiences from the point of view that this device must record everytime or die trying. Far too often it seems to take the death option... Again, I do not know how many.

I do know that more than 1 person has had problems. I do know that several people have described similar enough experiences to know that I might not want to experience that Kool-aid directly. I also know there are people who "never had any problems" also indicate they have had to reformat or reboot "a couple of times..." which would be unacceptable to me in the normal course of a VCR level product lifetime. (This is net a PC anymore than a VCR is. Yes, they all have CPUs and are running programs, but they are not the same. Heck, new refrigerators have CPUs and are running programs, but I'd never call them PCs.)

There also have been people who have said "I never had a problem until this release". This is not a good sign. In fact this is a very bad sign. So if Steve chooses to call this spade a spade, why are we disagreeing with him? He's right. (Altho I am becoming tempted to more closely align with the ALPHA testing claimants.)

Yes, I do see a bright future for the HR20 once it gets past this abysmal birth. I want all the promised, spoken or unspoken, features. Surprisingly for me, I don't have to have them now, this very moment. I can wait a bit, probably cuz I have come to set extremely low expectations and have spare capacity. If this were my only DVR....

Anyway, cheers everyone,
Tom


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## packfan909 (Oct 6, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Actually, if any of you have a trouble-free HR20 and are successfully recording 30-40 good hours per week of MPEG4 local channels, PLEASE speak up. I'd really like to know. My purpose is not to knock the HR20, but it is just to ascertain its actual reliability used in the way I will be using it.


I can't even find that much time on my schedule to watch TV that much. Ask my wife who keeps the social calendar!

On average I record about 10 hours of MP4 a week and have not experienced issues on the shows I have watched for the past few weeks. Since the FA release.

Question...

Are there 40 hours of HD programming through MP4 available to record? Not every show on an MP4 channel is in HD. And alot run them simultaneously and I run into conflicts all of the time.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

packfan909 said:


> I think you are setting the bar pretty high here!
> 
> Many non-machine things can interfere with a recording.
> 
> ...


Tell me how to get interested in a rerun of a baseketball game that the DVR didn't record because someone knowingly shipped the units with bad software. The weather was great, no power failure, any glitches from birds or airplanes blocking the transmission path were momentary, and the uplink facility caught their error within seconds.

I don't hold D* to things beyond their control. But I do expect the next generation of DVRs (the patent was awarded in 1985, but the first consumer models were released in 1999 CES, so its >5 years old) to be better and more reliable than the preceding.

This is not the first DVR, nor even D*s first DVR. They should know better. They must do better. (So what if Tivo's S3 is failing. maybe that is part of why D* left Tivo.)

As for digital TV, the FCC set the standard in 1995.

Is this just TV? Earl said it best in this forum. This is our escape from our personal grind. Many of us spend LOTS of money on TV in building our HT. We demand that each component in that HT work, at least to minimal standards of recording everything everytime for everyone. Not just some people.

Back to testing my HR20s...
Cheers,
Tom


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

tibber said:


> I'm confused, Neil. First you state that you have to have experience with THE item. Then you state that he should listen to both parties. Which is it? He has to have THE item or he can listen to the people on the forums?


He consistently bashes the equipment/programmers/directv throughout the thread. He isn't asking questions here.. he's just making noise. And yes, I think to be able to make the amount of noise he has made he probably should have had some direct experience.

If he's really trying to make an objective purchasing decision he might do as I suggest and listen to the good and the bad.

The "if" below is important. Please re-read and it might be more clear.



> Originally Posted by *Neil Derryberry*
> _You can't make a sound judgement without specific experience, and no, a different make/model of equipment doesn't count. *If *you are going to base your opinion solely on the resarch of others you should also pay attention to the people who have said that their HR20's work just fine.
> _


_
_


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

packfan909 said:


> I think you are setting the bar pretty high here!
> 
> Digital TV and DVR's are fairly new technologies. Both are <=5 years old. There are going to be bugs.
> 
> It's just TV!


In a typical week, I record about 10 shows. Of these, I generally have 3 to 4 hockey games from NHL Center Ice. Other than that, I record about 6 series. So out of an average of 10 recordings a week, the HR20 misses, cancels, immediately deletes, or otherwise does not let me watch about 4 to 5 of these recordings. Some weeks, I have gotten as many as 8 of them, others 3, but NEVER 10 out of 10! Bar pretty high? I don't know, but it seems that a DVR that fails to record as programmed roughly 50% of the time is not a DVR!


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

islesfan said:


> In a typical week, I record about 10 shows. Of these, I generally have 3 to 4 hockey games from NHL Center Ice. Other than that, I record about 6 series. So out of an average of 10 recordings a week, the HR20 misses, cancels, immediately deletes, or otherwise does not let me watch about 4 to 5 of these recordings. Some weeks, I have gotten as many as 8 of them, others 3, but NEVER 10 out of 10! Bar pretty high? I don't know, but it seems that a DVR that fails to record as programmed roughly 50% of the time is not a DVR!


Has your unit undergone a software upgrade? If so, did you do a full format after that upgrade?

Of everyone I see on here, those who have done that seem to have the fewest number of software-related failed-to-record (this doesn't count wiring problems, power-to-the-dish problems, etc).

I know it sucks, I know you shouldn't *have* to do it. But all I'm saying is that for me (and for several others), it may have made the difference, it may be why my HR20 is stable and records everything, and why others have the unwatchable bug and the skipped recordings.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Neil Derryberry said:


> He consistently bashes the equipment/programmers/directv throughout the thread. He isn't asking questions here.. he's just making noise. And yes, I think to be able to make the amount of noise he has made he probably should have had some direct experience.
> 
> If he's really trying to make an objective purchasing decision he might do as I suggest and listen to the good and the bad.
> 
> ...


You say bashes, I say he firmly sticks to "calling a spade a spade." Even if he really isn't a software person as he claims to be (and I do think he is from the items he brings up) I am a software person (I understand, you don't know me to be sure) and I know he is right. As are some of the other people in these threads who have characterized the release of the HR20 as a Alpha or beta test of the software.

And I think, if we could get into the quiet corners of Directv, away from the press, away from the public relations, we'd find people within Directv who would agree with us. I think Directv realized this is the Christmas of HDTV, but had already dropped the HR10-250. So they absolutely were in a very, very tight bind. They chose to bite the bullet and release. I am not certain that I disagree with what they had to do. I'm just glad I'm not in that position, nor a programmer on the team right now.

It will get better. The HR20 software will likely shine as well as the hardware already seems to. I'm encouraged by Earl's review of the insides.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

I'm an IT manager, I understand the software release process as well as the management side of things. I never said he wasn't correct about anything he might have mentioned about features not being present when the unit was released.. DirecTV saw the need to get this device to market before all of the features were enabled.. that's a management decision. The categorizations regarding alpha and beta testing here are just flat wrong - he's coming from ( as I perceive it) the preconceived notion that most if not all of the boxes are buggy and that just isn't so. Directv appears to have a full alpha and beta testing process, but remember - there are probably many scenarios that they just can't (possibly don't) replicate in testing.

I jumped in here because... you know what? It doesn't matter anymore. I tried to put forth an objective point of view and I guess I have failed miserably.

Steve - go get cable.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

Meklos said:


> Has your unit undergone a software upgrade? If so, did you do a full format after that upgrade?
> 
> Of everyone I see on here, those who have done that seem to have the fewest number of software-related failed-to-record (this doesn't count wiring problems, power-to-the-dish problems, etc).
> 
> I know it sucks, I know you shouldn't *have* to do it. But all I'm saying is that for me (and for several others), it may have made the difference, it may be why my HR20 is stable and records everything, and why others have the unwatchable bug and the skipped recordings.


I've gotten all the software upgrades (I'm in the Pacific time zone), but a re-format? The unit has never recorded NHL Center Ice until last week, when it recorded 3 games. I have only gotten a couple of the "unwatchable" bugs. It just cancels the recordings or deletes them (according to the history). I cannot see where a format would do anything but erase the things I have actually gotten to record.

I am also afraid to re-format because unlike most people, mine has stopped locking up and/or rebooting since 0xFA. I don't want to screw up this little bit of functioning.

I am pretty sure that I was one of the lucky ones where hardware is concerned, but the software is nowhere near ready for release.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Neil,

These are trying times for all the people at DBStalk. Thank you for sharing your point of view and your information as well.

Goes to show that intelligent people that have somewhat similar backgrounds can come to different conclusions. 

My respect for you does not diminish cause you're wrong, I mean cuz we disagree, but rather increases because of how you handled the fact that we disagree. 

Now back to our regularly scheduled discourse on testing, testing, testing and the OTA train... 

Cheers and thanks,
Tom


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> ... the preconceived notion that most if not all of the boxes are buggy and that just isn't so. ...
> 
> Steve - go get cable.


Do you have evidence to back that?

I think there is lots of evidence that there are bugs in most if not all the the HR20s. If the problems many of us are seeing are software problems, and D* has acknowledged software stability issues, then all the boxes are buggy. Now what % of users execute pattern that exposes those bugs, that is an unknown. If you have some documentation that has some real data on how many of the HR20 users have bug free vs buggy units that would be interesting to see.

I have seen nothing that states how many users have buggy or bug free devices but I would love to. Even the D* advanced support guys are stating that they are having lots of issues with the HR20, this is the same group of people who typically deny that there are any problems with anything D*. Their standard response is "no one else has reported any problems".


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

islesfan said:


> I've gotten all the software upgrades (I'm in the Pacific time zone), but a re-format? The unit has never recorded NHL Center Ice until last week, when it recorded 3 games. I have only gotten a couple of the "unwatchable" bugs. It just cancels the recordings or deletes them (according to the history). I cannot see where a format would do anything but erase the things I have actually gotten to record.
> 
> I am also afraid to re-format because unlike most people, mine has stopped locking up and/or rebooting since 0xFA. I don't want to screw up this little bit of functioning.
> 
> I am pretty sure that I was one of the lucky ones where hardware is concerned, but the software is nowhere near ready for release.


All I can say is that when I got my box, first thing I did was let it upgrade to 0xFA. Second thing I did was a full format. Of everyone I've seen here, I haven't seen a post where someone upgraded, formatted, then continued to have software-related issues. Of course, it's hard to prove the absence of something, but that's my impression, and that's why I did what I did.

They're probably monkeying with the way the decryption keys are stored in the file, and most likely it's the part of the code that deals with switching back and forth between the 'old pre-x-release' and the 'new release' ways of doing it where it screws up. It either records a show with the keys in the wrong place, or in the old format, but then the date says it's a new show. Blam, unwatchable.

That's my guess, anyway. Worst case is you lose the whole box and have to get another one. Best case, you fix your problem.


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## Dave_S (Jan 7, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Actually, if any of you have a trouble-free HR20 and are successfully recording 30-40 good hours per week of MPEG4 local channels, PLEASE speak up. I'd really like to know. My purpose is not to knock the HR20, but it is just to ascertain its actual reliability used in the way I will be using it.


We have three HR20s in our household with the main one recording 15-20 hours of Mpeg4 weekly. We have not seen any issues, but I have only been installed since Nov. 17th. We started off with 0xEF software and upgraded to 0xFA a few days later. We have not missed any recordings or had any lockups (yet), the HR20 has been totally stable for us.


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## packfan909 (Oct 6, 2006)

islesfan said:


> In a typical week, I record about 10 shows. Of these, I generally have 3 to 4 hockey games from NHL Center Ice. Other than that, I record about 6 series. So out of an average of 10 recordings a week, the HR20 misses, cancels, immediately deletes, or otherwise does not let me watch about 4 to 5 of these recordings. Some weeks, I have gotten as many as 8 of them, others 3, but NEVER 10 out of 10! Bar pretty high? I don't know, but it seems that a DVR that fails to record as programmed roughly 50% of the time is not a DVR!


I thought CI broadcasts were in MP2. The question was specifically about MP4 broadcasts. Which is only the spotbeamed programming at this time. Are these the broadcasts on Ch 95?


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

packfan909 said:


> I thought CI broadcasts were in MP2. The question was specifically about MP4 broadcasts. Which is only the spotbeamed programming at this time. Are these the broadcasts on Ch 95?


All the NHL Center Ice games have been MP2. All they show on 95 are the Rangers and the Blue Jackets. Nevertheless, the original thread was about recordings in general, not just MP4.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Neil Derryberry said:


> I'm an IT manager, I understand the software release process as well as the management side of things. I never said he wasn't correct about anything he might have mentioned about features not being present when the unit was released.. DirecTV saw the need to get this device to market before all of the features were enabled.. that's a management decision. The categorizations regarding alpha and beta testing here are just flat wrong - he's coming from ( as I perceive it) the preconceived notion that most if not all of the boxes are buggy and that just isn't so. Directv appears to have a full alpha and beta testing process, but remember - there are probably many scenarios that they just can't (possibly don't) replicate in testing.
> 
> I jumped in here because... you know what? It doesn't matter anymore. I tried to put forth an objective point of view and I guess I have failed miserably.
> 
> Steve - go get cable.


Neil, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head here. But this isn't about Steve or if he has a HR20 or not. It's about DTVs development practices. Hence the Beta Test topic.

I've been an IT Manager many times in past lives and also worked for them. Being one does not make you God as some IT managers think. I have seen countless times the entire development staff advising against the release of a new version of software and seen just as many times IT Management (or Corporate Management) disregarding those recommendations. The result being disaster....and many times the loss of a job for those managers.

From my experience with DTVs DVR development process it is flawed. I've had a R15 since January. I've made the decision to avoid the HR20 as I have 2 HR10s working just fine.

Getting back to my view of a flawed DTV DVR development process, they must have procedures for development, internal testing, external testing and beta testing. From what I've witnessed in the release of new updates for DTV's DVRs there doesn't seem to be many procedures in place. Marketing cannot drive releases of products or software updates that the developers say are not ready for release. Development management MUST have a Go/No Go authority over marketing/corporate concerns.

It has become obvious to me, maybe others, that DTV currently does not have the infrastructure to develop DVR software internally. That doesn't mean the coders/developers can't do the job, not by a long shot. Many times I think we try to pin problems on the programmers. The problem lies with the DVR development management. Just like the problem with the Detroit Lions lies with Matt Millen who should be fired ASAP or at least have the balls to resign....But I digress. :bang

This isn't going to change until some level of management changes within the DTV DVR development group. The HR20 is simply following the same lack of progress the R15 did and still is. The R15, after a year of release, can still not perform one major feature listed on the DTV website:


DirecTV Web Site said:


> Skips reruns if you don't want them. Just choose to only record new episodes.


And that doesn't include those that have daily resets, weekly reformats, black screens. You think next August the HR20 will be any different under the current development management? I doubt it.

OTA availability has been mentioned in many other threads and there's no need to discuss it further here, other than from the release of the HR20 Earl stated it was working, just needed more work and would be available in October. Then December. Now, know one knows. If that doesn't spell some problem with the development staff/management/process, I don't know what does.

So my point? This has nothing to do with Steve's view or opinion. He, as well as the rest of us, are all welcome to post them here. This has everything to do with DTV not having the ability to produce a reliable SD or HD DVR on their own. If now isn't the time to partner/re-partner with some company that has had success at producing DVRs in the past, I don't know when would be. Geez, why not bring over a SKY+ box. Did that do any worse? I mean really, DTV started with NDS technology, threw another Billion$ into it and it's not working any better, is it?


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> The people who have issues seem to be the loudest screamers. Many of those folks have valid complaints. Many do not..
> 
> Steve, do what you want. Please know that complaining about a piece of equipment not in your possession might tend to make you look like an idiot.


Why wouldn't the people having the most severe problems be the loudest screamers? They are the ones facing unrecorded/missed/deleted programming, no? They have something to scream about, I'd say. So that's an idiotic statement (since you used the word in your post).

Many don't have valid complaints? Meaning what? Where is your data on that front? You know for a fact "many" people posting here do not have valid complaints? Another idiotic statement, with no basis in fact.

I thought this forum was about sticking to the facts. I don't believe Steve's point about the HR20 not being ready for prime time has, after eight or so downloads (and that's a fact) that still haven't resolved some serious reliability issues, is valid whether he owns one or not. I own one, and mine works fine. But I completely understand his POV. Making him out to be an idiot is nothing more than silly name-calling.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> Why wouldn't the people having the most severe problems be the loudest screamers?


They surely are on these boards....  


> Many don't have valid complaints? Meaning what?


Seems easy enough to understand....  


> I thought this forum was about sticking to the facts.


ROTFLMAO :lol: :lol: Since when. Opinions are not facts, although they may be based on some facts from time to time.

That's why they're called message boards, not Internet encyclopedias... :eek2:


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They surely are on these boards....
> 
> Seems easy enough to understand....
> 
> ...


Purpose of this post, other than voicing you own "opinions"? Question being....your point?

Oh that's right, I'm on your ignore list so you won't even see this post. "Ignore-ence" is bliss. Isn't it?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Meklos said:


> All I can say is that when I got my box, first thing I did was let it upgrade to 0xFA. Second thing I did was a full format. Of everyone I've seen here, I haven't seen a post where someone upgraded, formatted, then continued to have software-related issues. Of course, it's hard to prove the absence of something, but that's my impression, and that's why I did what I did.
> 
> They're probably monkeying with the way the decryption keys are stored in the file, and most likely it's the part of the code that deals with switching back and forth between the 'old pre-x-release' and the 'new release' ways of doing it where it screws up. It either records a show with the keys in the wrong place, or in the old format, but then the date says it's a new show. Blam, unwatchable.
> 
> That's my guess, anyway. Worst case is you lose the whole box and have to get another one. Best case, you fix your problem.


Alas, I am one who tried the complete reformat and reset route and still had problems. I am also one who has had fewer problems since this release came out.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

tibber said:


> Alas, I am one who tried the complete reformat and reset route and still had problems. I am also one who has had fewer problems since this release came out.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


If you did a reformat (from the front panel - not the reset everything) and still have problems - from day one - call and get a new unit. You've got something else going on.


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

tibber said:


> Alas, I am one who tried the complete reformat and reset route and still had problems. I am also one who has had fewer problems since this release came out.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I do not doubt there are still problems with the box, but I think there are probably fewer problems when you do a full format. I firmly believe there are problems related to manual recordings, watching a recording while it 'ends' in the background causing unwatchables, and with autorecords. I also tend to believe there are problems with the box and performance-related problems (recording two MPEG4 streams while doing a complex operation like managing SLs).

Finally, if it is true that a corrputed signal from the sat can take down the box, it's still got serious problems in my book.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Meklos said:


> I do not doubt there are still problems with the box, but I think there are probably fewer problems when you do a full format. I firmly believe there are problems related to manual recordings, watching a recording while it 'ends' in the background causing unwatchables, and with autorecords. I also tend to believe there are problems with the box and performance-related problems (recording two MPEG4 streams while doing a complex operation like managing SLs).
> 
> Finally, if it is true that a corrputed signal from the sat can take down the box, it's still got serious problems in my book.


A full reset is going to put your box back to what one hopes to be a refreshed state. If the box goes bad because of issues like memory leaks or data structures not being updated correctly, it is just as likely that over time you will find yourself back to the same state of problems you had before you reset everything. This full formating idea is not much different than when we get new code. At first things seem good and then over time all sh!t breaks loose again with the next unwatchable or hangup. Reformatting might make things appear better in the short run but you are just as likely to have problems again once you load all your passes back in and start fully utilizing the HR20 again.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Meklos said:


> Finally, if it is true that a corrputed signal from the sat can take down the box, it's still got serious problems in my book.


If that's true, DTV needs to seriously need to speak with Tivo. If nothing else, restart production of R10s and HR10s. At least with that you have a reliable DVR to sell....opps....lease.

MPEG4 Locals....that's another problem that should have been considered when the upityups started turning on MPEG locals without a stable/working MPEG4 DVR.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> If that's true, DTV needs to seriously need to speak with Tivo. If nothing else, restart production of R10s and HR10s. At least with that you have a reliable DVR to sell....opps....lease.
> 
> MPEG4 Locals....that's another problem that should have been considered when the upityups started turning on MPEG locals without a stable/working MPEG4 DVR.


It may not be just on the HR20 end...this is new ground from start to finish on MPEG-4.

And...on reformatting...if any one of the hangs that people experienced corrupted files or sectors on the hard disk, then it is beneficial. To write off reformatting as a waste of time is not taking into account all the possible problems that it may address.

That doesn't mean it solves anything in the long term...the unit shouldn't hang/crash, but if you are stuck with the problem, it is short-sighted to not take every step possible to relieve or ameliorate (even temporarily) the problem. Getting a new box and being stiff-necked about reformatting is only going to result in the same problem showing up again on the new box. (if the cause is hard disk corruption).

I would never return a misbehaving box for replacement without reformatting first and seeing if it solved the problem. If reformatting the box didn't work, then it's time for a replacement.


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

btmoore said:


> A full reset is going to put your box back to what one hopes to be a refreshed state. If the box goes bad because of issues like memory leaks or data structures not being updated correctly, it is just as likely that over time you will find yourself back to the same state of problems you had before you reset everything. This full formating idea is not much different than when we get new code. At first things seem good and then over time all sh!t breaks loose again with the next unwatchable or hangup. Reformatting might make things appear better in the short run but you are just as likely to have problems again once you load all your passes back in and start fully utilizing the HR20 again.


My theory is that basically the structures have changed, and that it is the part of the recording / playback code dealing with the encryption keys is getting confused on which 'format' to be using. If you start fresh, it stays in one 'mode', utilizing the new structures only. If you have old recordings around, each time you play that recording it has to revert to reading the old structure. Add in some sloppy state change and a too-tight integration between the playback decryption engine and the recording encryption engine (i.e. state changes on the playback side somehow influence states on the recording side) and you end up with a box that records a screwed up file with bad encryption structure after you watch an old recording.

That's my theory anyway. The reason I think it's the encryption is that it happens as soon as you select the file for playback. You don't get any video, from the description of the problem.

[edit] The reason a full format is different than just an upgrade is that with an upgrade, you still have old recordings, old SLs, etc. If the format changed between versions, they're either doing a rewrite on those sections to change them to the current format, or they're including some sort of detection routines that can tell what format they're in and read/write appropriately. With a full format, there is no 'old' structure, no possibility of anything legacy interfering.

Here's a question for those with more knowledge than me. If I hook up an external SATA drive, do a complete format with it attached... can I later remove the drive and completely revert to the internal drive? If so, it might be a good exercise to have someone having what appear to be software-only problems (i.e. no 711s, no signal dropouts) add an external drive and do a full format to compare the symptoms. If it 'fixes' the situation, then revert to the internal drive and see if the problems continue. Depending on the severity of the problem and how quickly it manifests itself, it might be relatively conclusive evidence of a structural problem in the data or indexes or something.

Just a thought...


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Meklos said:


> My theory is that basically the structures have changed, and that it is the part of the recording / playback code dealing with the encryption keys is getting confused on which 'format' to be using.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


Some good analysis. I think your points are worth exploring.

As for the external drive, the unit continues to use the internal drive while the external is attached. So someone would have to disable the internal drive for your plan to work. Something very doable if someone wanted to void their warranty/lease agreement.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Radio Enginerd said:


> Since OxEF I've been successfully recording without incident. 80% of my recordings are MPEG-4.
> 
> You asked, I replied.


That's not enough info.

How many months have you had no problems and how many total hours recordings of MPEG-4 do you do per week?

Thanks.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I don't buy that. Encryption is simple. A data stream, stored in a file is encrypted. The problems arise in the filesystem/structure used to store the encrypted/nonencrypted data stream. A system freezes a data stream being recorded is left in limbo. Pointers not pointed. Clusters/inodes not clustered/inoded. Encryption has nothing to do with these problems. Each box has it's own key. It uses that to store and unstore data. That doesn't change based on anything on the HD. IMO.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

packfan909 said:


> I think you are setting the bar pretty high here!
> 
> Many non-machine things can interfere with a recording.
> 
> ...


I obviously didn't mean any of those, nor do would count it as HR20 failure if a tree feel on my house. What I am interested in is getting 1 or 2 failures at most per year on recordings that the stations actually transmitted in the time frame they originally promised, i.e., the same thing my family has been getting for a long time on 4 different TiVos in 2 different houses.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Meklos said:


> Has your unit undergone a software upgrade? If so, did you do a full format after that upgrade?
> 
> Of everyone I see on here, those who have done that seem to have the fewest number of software-related failed-to-record (this doesn't count wiring problems, power-to-the-dish problems, etc).
> 
> I know it sucks, I know you shouldn't *have* to do it. But all I'm saying is that for me (and for several others), it may have made the difference, it may be why my HR20 is stable and records everything, and why others have the unwatchable bug and the skipped recordings.


I tend to have the disk on my TiVo unit 70-80% full most of the time. If converting to an HR20 means that I would periodically have throw away 30-150 hours of HD and SD in order to make the unit work properly again via full format, then I would count that as 30-150 failures of the unit in that year since losing the recordings one at time or all at once is the same thing.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> Steve - go get cable.


I am a big supporter of D* and have been for a long time. I've told my friends and neighbors to get. Eventually, the beta testing will be over on the HR20 and a production quality unit will be available. When that happens, I'll be ordering several. Don't insult me by suggesting that I should cable.

Please don't shot the messenger because I point out that the HR20 isn't ready for prime time for those of us it heavily for local channels since we want to watch television not deal with freezes, reformating, lost shows, etc.

Many are happy in being beta testers. Others lucky ones have bug-free units (or bug-free for a few weeks since the last software release or the last time they reformated their drive). Some only use it lightly (1/5 of our family's typical load) so have less opportunities to have problems. Still others have had a boat load problems.

I will continue to promote D*, but I'll tell people to avoid the HR20 until it stabilizes. I hope that is soon, but I seriously doubt it. My guess is stability is 6 months away, but who knows if my estimate is low or high.


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## packfan909 (Oct 6, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> I tend to have the disk on my TiVo unit 70-80% full most of the time. If converting to an HR20 means that I would periodically have throw away 30-150 hours of HD and SD in order to make the unit work properly again via full format, then I would count that as 30-150 failures of the unit in that year since losing the recordings one at time or all at once is the same thing.


My current experience is this:

- I have packet drops from MP4 recordings from one channel. Our ABC affiliate. NBC and CBS shows never loose the picture. And when ABC's do, it is only for 5-10 seconds. Audio continues without a hitch. Only happens once a show. Could be tied to the network feed as I record Jeopardy every day on the same channel without any issues. Can't speak to FOX as this was just added today and the guide data has not populated nor do I watch the only HD show on FOX Wednesday's House. I record the following shows in MP4 without problem from week to week:

-Heroes
-Studio 60
-CSI:NY
-Without a Trace
-ER
-The Office

- I have not experienced loss of recordings in the Playlist without deleting them. Early on, a few months ago I would record a show in MP4 and would have a blank recording. This was a known issue that was already fixed about 4 updates ago.

- The TiVo 30 second skip is not possible. D*'s 30 second SLIP will allow you to jump through a 30 second piece of video in about 2 seconds. This was recently improved. Prior it took about 8 seconds.

- I have not had a complete system lock up since two releases ago. This was approximately 2-3 weeks ago.

How are you able to tell that you have 70-80% disk full on your TiVo? Is this a DTiVo? I was NEVER able to tell what was left or used in my drive unless I went to the trouble of adding up all of the programs that were in my Tivo menu. Are you recording all network shows? The only channels that are MP4 on D* for the Bay Area are network channels like 2,5,7,11, etc. and FSN BA in HD if you are lucky enough to live in the range of zips that carry it.

Everything else both HD and SD is saved in MP2. I have never and when I say never I mean 0% of the time, have had issues with recording shows or events on the 70-79 channels. I never record sporting events as I typically hear the score and delete the game after the fact any way. Knowing Radio Enginerd personally, he has not had issues with non MP4 recordings either. I have had my HR20 since mid September.

It comes down to this I think Steve. If you can get your locals OTA and could care a less about Fox Sports Net Bay Area, then stay with the HR10. If the responsiveness of the TiVo is not annoying to you then stay where you are. Eventually, when HD content is completely converted to MP4 you will need to convert. I have not seen any information posted, beyond begging and pleading from other TiVo users, about D* changing the software to display MP4.

There are bugs in the equipment. And as an early adopter, I was willing to accept those bugs. Also, I didn't have much choice as getting OTA is not easy in my location. I am over 30 miles away from Walnut Grove here in the Sacramento Area where the transmission towers are located. I can get some of the channels in but not consistantly.

I look at the mp4 issues as a inconvenience and know that they will eventually get fixed. I am happy with the responsiveness of the HR20 as of now. At first, there were concerns but for the most part I am happy with my configuration. I could just be accepting of a less buggy unit vs. a unit that is bullet proof. The DVR is what it is. D*'s roll out was what it was. It helps that our FOX affiliate was just turned on today for Digital over the Satellite.

It sounds like your mind is made up already. Stick it out with the HR10. Keep checking the groups to see how things are going. When you see the stability improve make that jump over to the new equipment.

You asked people for their input and we are trying to provide it. The timing stinks with being told that OTA may not be here as expected. There are a LOT of upset members and HR20 users based on that alone.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

packfan909 said:


> How are you able to tell that you have 70-80% disk full on your TiVo?


Sometimes I count all the hours manually. Other times, I can just look at how many TiVo suggestions have been recorded. From there, I can usually estimate it.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> He consistently bashes the equipment/programmers/directv throughout the thread. He isn't asking questions here.. he's just making noise. And yes, I think to be able to make the amount of noise he has made he probably should have had some direct experience.
> 
> If he's really trying to make an objective purchasing decision he might do as I suggest and listen to the good and the bad.
> [/I]


I *am * listening to the good and the bad. I am thus far hearing more bad than good. I count quotes like "I haven't had any problems since the last release x numbers of weeks, but before that it was buggy," as pretty inconslusive at best. Some people hadn't had any problems. Some have had a lot. Most of you don't seem to be particularly heavy users of the service.

Let's say I'm being too pessimistic. Let's say for the sake of argument that for every HR20 user with reliability problems, there are two who had no freezes, no reformats, no missed programs, no unwatchable programs, etc. Then the unit would still not be anywhere near what I would call production quality and ready for me to switch. (1 in 3 units with significant reliablity problems is still way too high.)

I'm VERY happy with the D* service now. Why would I want to make myself unhappy, when all I need to do is wait until the unit is as reliable as my TiVo units were 3 years ago? The HR20 will get there.

If you just think I'm just "making noise" and the HR20 has already achieved a high degree of production reliability and the numberous users who have written in to say otherwise are just a bunch of anomolies in a much, much larger pool of happy users of completely stable HR20s, then don't read this thread. Or don't read what I have to say.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> That's not enough info.
> 
> How many months have you had no problems and how many total hours recordings of MPEG-4 do you do per week?
> 
> Thanks.


 I've been successfully recording without incident (knock on wood) since the release of OxEF (11/15/2006). I have not done a single reboot (except for reboots generated from an update).

I record 10-15 hours of MPEG-4 programming a week. I'm not sure there's enough MPEG-4 HD programming on my local affiliates for me to even record the quantity you do. I also record considerable movies on HD Net Movies, HBO HD and Showtime HD but of course that's MPEG-2.

Weekly MPEG-4 SP's/SL's:

- Heroes
- Studio 60
- My Name Is Earl
- The Office
- Grey's Anatomy
- Desperate Housewives
- King of Queens
- Lost
- Medium
- Scrubs (starts tonight) 
- The Biggest Loser (SD - but recorded on the MPEG-4 feed)
- Everybody Hates Chris
- What About Brian

So why don't I post more?

The reason I don't post (and others I'm sure) is that when we report problem free operation we get *attacked*! Prior to release OxEF, I completely understand your issues. I WAS IN THE TRENCHES WITH YOU. But I'm not now.

I made some changes...

- I took my HR-20 out of a closed cabinet and properly ventilated it.
- I stopped using an IR extender.
- I even forgot (realized last night) to install my BBC when I moved the box.

I did all that the day before OxEF was released. So did EF fix my problems or did my changes do the trick? I have no idea. See my signature for my setup for this unit.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Radio Enginerd said:


> I've been successfully recording without incident (knock on wood) since the release of OxEF (11/15/2006). I have not done a single reboot (except for reboots generated from an update).
> 
> I record 10-15 hours of MPEG-4 programming a week. I'm not sure there's enough MPEG-4 HD programming on my local affiliates for me to even record the quantity you do. I also record considerable movies on HD Net Movies, HBO HD and Showtime HD but of course that's MPEG-2.
> 
> ...


Great post!


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I don't buy that. Encryption is simple. A data stream, stored in a file is encrypted. The problems arise in the filesystem/structure used to store the encrypted/nonencrypted data stream. A system freezes a data stream being recorded is left in limbo. Pointers not pointed. Clusters/inodes not clustered/inoded. Encryption has nothing to do with these problems. Each box has it's own key. It uses that to store and unstore data. That doesn't change based on anything on the HD. IMO.


They have to be storing some sort of identifier either in the file or in an index with the file pointing at the beginning of the in vector for the encryption. Basically that's the point at which the header of the file is over, here is where the file's hash of the key is stored, here's where to do your initial comparison to see if the file is readable.

My theory is that they have either changed the format of that first section of the header, or they've actually changed the index file itself (if the key/hash is stored there). In either case, it's misreading the key/hash section due to a format change between versions.

The reason I think this is that it seems everyone who is having problems is using systems that have gone through an upgrade or two, and who are unwilling to do a full format. Some of those are very light users, and so the actual total amount of filesystem thrash is relatively low (thrash per hour times total hours of recording = total thrash).

Then we have other users who are heavy users but who have done a full format since their last upgrade. A lot of those are working fine (not all, but many). Just my informal gut feeling from reading the forums is that more people who aren't having problems are people who either did a full format or who maybe don't keep old recordings around.

The first thing that keyed in on encryption with the unwatchable bug is that this acts exactly like Tivos do if you don't zero out the encryption key and you move a file from another Tivo. Each Tivo has a local box key, and each file is encrypted with that key. If the keys don't match, the file will still show up in the list, will still let you press play... but it'll immediately bomb out with "Delete now?" - which is exactly what the HR20 is doing. The file appears to be there, it appears to be taking up space. It just isn't watchable.

So like I said, maybe they built in code that can read both old-format recordings (made in an old release) and new ones, but there's a couple of problems. First, the detection routine doesn't always work right, and second (and more disturbing) the state of the playback engine and it's encryption mode is affecting the recording engine.

The reason I say that is that people are reporting "3 recordings last night, unwatchable". It seems to run in strings. Once the recording engine gets in a certain state, it still records the files, but the encryption is handled wrong or something. I'm guessing that it will continue to record in that manner until some external event (like some sort of pid refresh / hup or a reboot) forces the engine to clear it's state back to normal. People aren't typically reporting (as far as I can tell) anything like "7p-8p last night was unwatchable, but 8p-9p was fine". It doesn't just seem to hit one recording in a string.

Of course, this could be all wrong, but that's the impression I get from reading the reports.


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

packfan909 said:


> Question...
> 
> Are there 40 hours of HD programming through MP4 available to record? Not every show on an MP4 channel is in HD. And alot run them simultaneously and I run into conflicts all of the time.


Yes.

Just off of the top of my head, here over 20 shows that my wife and/or I like and which are available in HD:

1.	Cold Case
2.	Without a Trace
3.	Heroes
4.	Prison Break
5.	CSI: Miami
6.	8 LBS
7.	NCIS
8.	Friday Night Lights
9.	Law & Order: Criminal Intent
10.	Standoff
11.	House
12.	Law & Order: Special Victims Unit
13.	CSI: NY
14.	Medium
15.	Bones
16.	Daybreak
17.	Lost
18.	Jericho
19.	Grey's Anatomy
20.	Justice
21.	20/20
22.	Close to Home


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## tbackus (Nov 21, 2006)

Steve,

I understand what you are doing here. I wish i had known about these forums before I bought my box. It hasn't been worth the 300 dollars I paid for it. This latest software upgrade seems to have eliminated my problems, but i still wish I hadn't bought it. Do NOT buy this box! It is still in beta testing! If D* can't sell a box without having this many problems, why should anyone buy it??? I wish i hadn't, and now I'm on the hook for two freakin years of it! Maybe i'll just unhook it and use my old recievers!

I honestly don't know why people are getting upset about this thread, people deserve the truth! Yes, some people have had no problems. But then again more than a few have had major problems! I consider myself lucky, what with the 8 missed recordings, 4 bad recordings, and 22 Lock-ups I've had since October 27th! Nobody should feel lucky about that! that is unacceptable!


----------



## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

tbackus said:


> Steve,
> 
> I understand what you are doing here. I wish i had known about these forums before I bought my box. It hasn't been worth the 300 dollars I paid for it. This latest software upgrade seems to have eliminated my problems, but i still wish I hadn't bought it. Do NOT buy this box! It is still in beta testing! If D* can't sell a box without having this many problems, why should anyone buy it??? I wish i hadn't, and now I'm on the hook for two freakin years of it! Maybe i'll just unhook it and use my old recievers!
> 
> I honestly don't know why people are getting upset about this thread, people deserve the truth! Yes, some people have had no problems. But then again more than a few have had major problems! I consider myself lucky, what with the 8 missed recordings, 4 bad recordings, and 22 Lock-ups I've had since October 27th! Nobody should feel lucky about that! that is unacceptable!


These forums are great!

Had I not read what I did here, I might well be another unsatisfied owner of an HR20. Instead I am blissfully watching D* without missing a beat or a single program. Someday the bugs will be out, and I'll buy some HR20s.

It's funny. Usually when I visit forums to try decide to buy a camera or something else, it is normally the feature set I am trying to get a handle on. This is first time that when I did research, I've spent most of my time trying to figure out just how unreliable the unit is. Everything else I buy, TVs, cars, VCRs, etc., usually have no major failures in the first few years. Sure they may have small problems, but rarely anything major.

I am actually pretty shocked that D* would be selling beta test units that frequently can't do the most function of all, which is to reliably record the program requested.


----------



## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Had I not read what I did here, I might well be another unsatisfied owner of an HR20. Instead I am blissfully watching D* without missing a beat or a single program. Someday the bugs will be out, and I'll buy some HR20s.


I think you're smart for doing your homework.  MANY of the people that jumped on the HR-20 bandwagon did so because they wanted to receive and RECORD MPEG-4 locals. That's the only reason I got on the bandwagon.

I feel bad for folks that didn't fully understand what the heck they were getting into. I can't complain since I knew upfront what I was getting and "choose to be a beta tester".

I've had the HR-20 since September 29th and I'd be full of crap if I told you the thought didn't cross my mind to call DTV and get my money back. At one point I was rebooting once a day.

But, as mentioned in my previous post, I feel less and less like a beta tester these days since my box is working VERY well. If you don't need or desire any of the MPEG-4 programming, I think you're smart to wait until DTV has more HD offerings since I understand their next offerings will be MPEG-4.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## richadam (Oct 28, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> You can't make a sound judgement without specific experience, and no, a different make/model of equipment doesn't count. If you are going to base your opinion solely on the resarch of others you should also pay attention to the people who have said that their HR20's work just fine.


Your statement above completely ignores the fact that the vast majority of people who want an appliance that just works. No hassle, no dealing with all of the issues that the HR20 throws at me on a regular basis. So reading about multiple, make that many, recountings of poor consumer experiences with the HR20 does not get balanced out by an equal or even close to equal number of satisfied customers. In order for a device to be accepted by the mass market, customer issues must be a tiny percentage of the total shared consumer experience.

Look, paying customers deserve reliable performance. The HR20 is as far from a reliable appliance as I have paid for in the past 20 years. I am very close to bailing on D* as a result.

The best post I read today was the one that suggested that improving the ventilation of the unit might improve the performance. I will try it and see. But this is exactly why the unit is a Beta at best. Because I am having to do experimentation to discover if it will improve performance. Consumer grade products do not require such an approach. Paying customers should not have to waste their time acting as the configuration lab for D*. But that is the sad reality.

I hope that analysts are trolling in here, because the D* valuation should he taking a beating based on the abysmal performance of the HR20.

Oh yeah, my local cable co now offers HD. Got the mailer yesterday, so I now have a real choice, and that is a good thing. I am not bailing just yet, but the ineptitude of the HR20 has made me ponder the option...

ponderously yours,
rda


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Steve Rhodes said:


> These forums are great!
> 
> Had I not read what I did here, I might well be another unsatisfied owner of an HR20. Instead I am blissfully watching D* without missing a beat or a single program. Someday the bugs will be out, and I'll buy some HR20s.
> 
> ...


Yes, the forums serve a very useful purpose for prospective buyers (err, leasers). Sure, you have to take into account that such forums are weighted towards problem-solving, but you can still get a very good feel for things. And my feel has led me to stay with my HR10 (and the old 3.1 software) for the time being. Since I am able to get my locals OTA, there's no rush to "upgrade" at this point. That will change when national MPEG4 content is available.

I do appreciate the reports from those having problems as well as those whose units are working well (except for those few posters who seem to respond to those having problems in an overly self-satisfied and/or sarcastic manner. I wish the next round of software bugs on them.  )


----------



## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

richadam said:


> Your statement above completely ignores the fact that the vast majority of people who want an appliance that just works. No hassle, no dealing with all of the issues that the HR20 throws at me on a regular basis. So reading about multiple, make that many, recountings of poor consumer experiences with the HR20 does not get balanced out by an equal or even close to equal number of satisfied customers. In order for a device to be accepted by the mass market, customer issues must be a tiny percentage of the total shared consumer experience.
> 
> Look, paying customers deserve reliable performance. The HR20 is as far from a reliable appliance as I have paid for in the past 20 years. I am very close to bailing on D* as a result.


The proof that this unit is still in beta testing comes from the frequency of the patches:

Version 0xEF (11/15/2006): 
Version 0xEB (11/07/2006): [0xEB was never released nationally]
Version 0xE3 (10/19/2006): 
Version 0xDC (10/11/2006): 
Version 0xD8 (10/04/2006): 
Version 0xD1 (09/26/2006): 
Version 0xCC (09/16/2006): 
Version 0xBE (09/01/2006):

My god, several patches a month! That's insane.

Imagine if your car, your camera or your VCR had to have a fix applied once every 10 days. You be demanding your money back. People would be writing letters to the newspapers to complain about the product quality, not boasting in forums that although their unit used to have problems, it now has worked flawless for a few weeks ever any since patch #22 or whatever.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Steve Rhodes said:


> The proof that this unit is still in beta testing comes from the frequency of the patches:
> 
> Version 0xEF (11/15/2006):
> Version 0xEB (11/07/2006): [0xEB was never released nationally]
> ...


They could move to the alternative method of releasing updates....
Significantly larger ones, less frequently.... for exmaple... Microsoft's last major update for XBOX360... roughly 100 fixes, and it was about 4-5 months since the last one.

There is a big difference between the HR20 and your "car", "camera", and or VCR. All three of those are not designed with the notion of "upgrade" the firmware. Most of those... are... If you want the newest features... then you need to by a new one. (aka My 2005 Nissan Quest... There are 5 features that the 2007 has, that I really want.... but it will cost me $18,000 to do it... same for digital cameras, VCRs, DVD players, amps, pretty nearlly ALL consumer electronics).


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They could move to the alternative method of releasing updates....
> Significantly larger ones, less frequently.... for exmaple... Microsoft's last major update for XBOX360... roughly 100 fixes, and it was about 4-5 months since the last one.
> 
> There is a big difference between the HR20 and your "car", "camera", and or VCR. All three of those are not designed with the notion of "upgrade" the firmware. Most of those... are... If you want the newest features... then you need to by a new one. (aka My 2005 Nissan Quest... There are 5 features that the 2007 has, that I really want.... but it will cost me $18,000 to do it... same for digital cameras, VCRs, DVD players, amps, pretty nearlly ALL consumer electronics).


I can see both sides of the argument. Sending out more frequent updates might help the developers in identifying issues (i.e., with fewer changes per release, problems/fixes due to the changes might be more easily identified). The frequency of the updates, though, can definitely give the impression of a very buggy product.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bwaldron said:


> I can see both sides of the argument. Sending out more frequent updates might help the developers in identifying issues (i.e., with fewer changes per release, problems/fixes due to the changes might be more easily identified). The frequency of the updates, though, can definitely give the impression of a very buggy product.


Most definently....

And one thing to remember... as the HR20 user base increases... 
DirecTV wont' release bi-weekly updates...... they will stretch out and have bigger gaps of time in between


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They could move to the alternative method of releasing updates....
> Significantly larger ones, less frequently.... for exmaple... Microsoft's last major update for XBOX360... roughly 100 fixes, and it was about 4-5 months since the last one.
> 
> There is a big difference between the HR20 and your "car", "camera", and or VCR. All three of those are not designed with the notion of "upgrade" the firmware. Most of those... are... If you want the newest features... then you need to by a new one. (aka My 2005 Nissan Quest... There are 5 features that the 2007 has, that I really want.... but it will cost me $18,000 to do it... same for digital cameras, VCRs, DVD players, amps, pretty nearlly ALL consumer electronics).


If these very frequent releases were for getting out new features as soon as possible, that's fine. But, if the goal is try to patch a buggy unit with poorly tested patches -- sort of a whack-a-mole approach to software bugs -- then frequent patches are a sign of real trouble in the unit and in the software design process.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They could move to the alternative method of releasing updates....
> Significantly larger ones, less frequently.... for exmaple... Microsoft's last major update for XBOX360... roughly 100 fixes, and it was about 4-5 months since the last one.
> 
> There is a big difference between the HR20 and your "car", "camera", and or VCR. All three of those are not designed with the notion of "upgrade" the firmware. Most of those... are... If you want the newest features... then you need to by a new one. (aka My 2005 Nissan Quest... There are 5 features that the 2007 has, that I really want.... but it will cost me $18,000 to do it... same for digital cameras, VCRs, DVD players, amps, pretty nearlly ALL consumer electronics).


As usual Earl, you make alot of sense...but some people just are never gonna "get it". 

It's just like the 11 or so redundant threads running rampant now about OTA activation and status....please....shut those puppies down and end the mindless bantor over and over about the same thing. Your single status thread is great and does the job.

The same handful of 10-12 posters who endlessly go through their whining and complaining - my goodness Earl - I'd like to send you a 55 gallon drum of aspirin (or Tums?) just for what you have to put up with from these kooks. :eek2:


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The same handful of 10-12 posters who endlessly go through their whining and complaining - my goodness Earl - I'd like to send you a 55 gallon drum of aspirin (or Tums?) just for what you have to put up with from these kooks. :eek2:


They bought something. It didn't work. The company that made it hasn't fixed it. That makes the *purchasers* a "kook?"

And, I count way more than 10-12 people in the various threads with significant problems in getting the HR20 to do its most basic function of recording.

Why do you feel the need to denigrate the poor people who bought units that don't work?


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve Rhodes said:


> They bought something. It didn't work. The company that made it hasn't fixed it. That makes the *purchasers* a "kook?"


Actually they *lease* something that happens to work fine for most people.


> And, I count way more than 10-12 people in the various threads with significant problems in getting the HR20 to do its most basic function of recording.


That may be....but not all posters are the kooks, sir, only those that 10-12 fit the mold of complaining and whining at least 100 times a day (and believe me, they know who they are and they live for that as their daily entertainment), with no further contribution. They also love to initiate a thread with inflamatory or combative headings. That leaves you out.


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## rirwin1983 (Dec 11, 2005)

Steve Rhodes said:


> I've worked in the software industry all of my life.
> 
> The HR20 is currently in _*beta testing*_. Yes, I know that many of you have paid good money for it, but anything that fails this often is still a beta test unit.
> 
> ...


You wont miss an episode if you would purchase the DVD set of the whole series, or go online and watch it


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## rirwin1983 (Dec 11, 2005)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Between my dad's household and mine, we've got 4 heavily used TiVo units.
> 
> Number of unwatchable recordings during the last 12 months: 0
> 
> ...


Ok thats it im going there. THIS IS NOT A ****ING TIVO! So stop comparing it to one. First off TIVO is a propitary device. Meaning developed fully from scratch with its own unique fetures and interfaces.

By comparing the HR20 to a Tivo is like comparing BMW to a Kia. Yea both are cars (and TIVO and the HR20 are both DVR's). But thats where the similarities end. And just like that BMW has been around forever (so this is the TIVO) and Kia is still a new company, at least to the USA (here is the HR20) one can rember when Kia was first introduced in the USA and everything on them was an OPTION! AC Radio, ABS, Air Bags. Those features are faily standard on outher cars for the most part.

So keep the above in mind the next time you want to compare the 2


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

rirwin1983 said:


> You wont miss an episode if you would purchase the DVD set of the whole series, or go online and watch it


And if I buy car that frequently doesn't start, I can always ride the bus. That way I won't be complaining about my car?


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## Steve Rhodes (Oct 4, 2006)

rirwin1983 said:


> Ok thats it im going there. THIS IS NOT A ****ING TIVO! So stop comparing it to one. First off TIVO is a propitary device. Meaning developed fully from scratch with its own unique fetures and interfaces.
> 
> By comparing the HR20 to a Tivo is like comparing BMW to a Kia. Yea both are cars (and TIVO and the HR20 are both DVR's). But thats where the similarities end. And just like that BMW has been around forever (so this is the TIVO) and Kia is still a new company, at least to the USA (here is the HR20) one can rember when Kia was first introduced in the USA and everything on them was an OPTION! AC Radio, ABS, Air Bags. Those features are faily standard on outher cars for the most part.
> 
> So keep the above in mind the next time you want to compare the 2


I am NOT saying who has the best software or the best feature set or the best GUI. I am talking mainly about the reliability of being able to do the most fundamental thing, which is record programs as requested. So this has nothing to do with "TiVo" as a company or a brand. I'm just talking about quality. This isn't about branding.


----------



## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> Why do you feel the need to denigrate the poor people who bought units that don't work?


Steve, get used to it. I see it on a daily basis. Apparently if one is not having any problems they're convinced the problems that other people have had is all in their head. They apparently got the one box that works correctly. And they repeatedly emphasize that in every post where someone else has a problem.

I've had more problems with the HR20 than all electronic devices I've ever owned (except computers). The first one that was going to be installed was dead out of the box.


----------



## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

rirwin1983 said:


> Ok thats it im going there. THIS IS NOT A ****ING TIVO!


You're d*mn right it's not a TiVo! The three TiVos that I've had were WAY more reliable. And I CAN compare the reliability of the HR20 to a TiVo, because they're both supposed to do the same thing reliably: RECORD TV. And my HR20 just doesn't do that reliably.


----------



## richadam (Oct 28, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> The proof that this unit is still in beta testing comes from the frequency of the patches:
> 
> Version 0xEF (11/15/2006):
> Version 0xEB (11/07/2006): [0xEB was never released nationally]
> ...


The frequency of the releases is disturbing for this reason. For a software driven and complex product such ad the HR20 you need a significant QA process. When new builds are submitted to a rigorous QA process the release must tested from top to bottom. This is a lengthy and labor intensive process. Getting a console game through a publisher QA department and a manufacturer QA department is usually a month to 2 month process.

Therefore, patches released with such frequency indicates less rigorous approach to testing and certifying a release as ready for deployment.

The HR20 is not a trivial piece of work, and deploying it into an incredibly diverse number of configurations across the country is a very large challenge. One which appears to require more structure than is currently being employed.


----------



## opelap (Nov 4, 2006)

rirwin1983 said:


> Ok thats it im going there. THIS IS NOT A ****ING TIVO! So stop comparing it to one. *First off TIVO is a propitary device.* Meaning developed fully from scratch with its own unique fetures and interfaces.


What makes you think the HR20 is not a propietary device? I can't build one or buy the parts. I must buy it from D* who controls the specs from end to end.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Based on these kinds of goofy criteria, and with issues still appearing with the latest 6.3 Tivo box firmware......it looks like the old Tivo must be in *beta* after all these years. 

Just because there are updates, doesn't mean its in beta. Lots of software gets updated all the time - and they don't call it beta. I have some that gets weekly or monthly updates. Some updates add features, some fix bugs. Big stinking deal.

This is a classic glass half empty / half full situation. No matter what, there will be whiners. I happen to think they should be commended for working hot and fast to resolve remaining issues.

If D*TV didn't do regular updates, there would be whiners about that.

Now when we do have regular updates, we already have other whiners.

If they delayed the release of the box a few months until now or 1Q 2007 after all the bi-weekly updates were done, there would be yet different whiners about that.

There isn't enough enough cheese being produced to go with all that whine.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Based on these kinds of goofy criteria, and with issues still appearing with the latest 6.3 Tivo box firmware......it looks like the old Tivo must be in *beta* after all these years.
> 
> Just because there are updates, doesn't mean its in beta. Lots of software gets updated all the time - and they don't call it beta. I have some that gets weekly or monthly updates. Some updates add features, some fix bugs. Big stinking deal.
> 
> ...


Another Mensa moment from someone whose keyboard should malfunction to spare the rest of us.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Another Mensa moment from someone whose keyboard should malfunction to spare the rest of us.


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> As usual Earl, you make alot of sense...but some people just are never gonna "get it".
> 
> It's just like the 11 or so redundant threads running rampant now about OTA activation and status....please....shut those puppies down and end the mindless bantor over and over about the same thing. Your single status thread is great and does the job.
> 
> The same handful of 10-12 posters who endlessly go through their whining and complaining - my goodness Earl - I'd like to send you a 55 gallon drum of aspirin (or Tums?) just for what you have to put up with from these kooks. :eek2:


Hey Earl. Aren't you glad you have a press secretary on par with Tony Snow watching your back? I have to say, if I had this guy on my side, I might consider changing sides.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> B
> There isn't enough enough cheese being produced to go with all that whine.


And it looks like we have a whiner who whines about all the other whiners.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Based on these kinds of goofy criteria, and with issues still appearing with the latest 6.3 Tivo box firmware......it looks like the old Tivo must be in *beta* after all these years.
> 
> Just because there are updates, doesn't mean its in beta. Lots of software gets updated all the time - and they don't call it beta. I have some that gets weekly or monthly updates. Some updates add features, some fix bugs. Big stinking deal.
> 
> ...


On the other hand, comic relief can be very therapeutic.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

TomF said:


> And it looks like we have a whiner who whines about all the other whiners.


Well put. I tell you, with enough posts from this guy, we could all get jobs as comedy writers. He just can't be taken seriously. I used to fall for his idiotic posts. Now, my thoughts run more along the lines of "Why don't you shut your piehole?" I hope poor Earl's careful not to back-up. He could break the guy's nose.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Well put. I tell you, with enough posts from this guy, we could all get jobs as comedy writers. He just can't be taken seriously. I used to fall for his idiotic posts. Now, my thoughts run more along the lines of "Why don't you shut your piehole?" I hope poor Earl's careful not to back-up. He could break the guy's nose.


:lol: :lol: :lol: You're killing me! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

....and embarassing yourselves. Let's cut the personal crap. (on all sides) Why is it so hard to disagree without becoming so disagreeable?

God we need an update!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

rirwin1983 said:


> You wont miss an episode if you would purchase the DVD set of the whole series, or go online and watch it


Or go grab a dependable DTivo off of ebay. Geez, for that matter, go grab any "dependable" DVR.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

rirwin1983 said:


> Ok thats it im going there. THIS IS NOT A ****ING TIVO! So stop comparing it to one. First off TIVO is a propitary device. Meaning developed fully from scratch with its own unique fetures and interfaces.
> 
> By comparing the HR20 to a Tivo is like comparing BMW to a Kia. Yea both are cars (and TIVO and the HR20 are both DVR's). But thats where the similarities end. And just like that BMW has been around forever (so this is the TIVO) and Kia is still a new company, at least to the USA (here is the HR20) one can rember when Kia was first introduced in the USA and everything on them was an OPTION! AC Radio, ABS, Air Bags. Those features are faily standard on outher cars for the most part.
> 
> So keep the above in mind the next time you want to compare the 2


Cool. I should probably catch up on the thread....but with those comments... what can I say?

The HR20 isn't a Tivo. A Tivo performs all functions of a DVR. It records and plays back recordings. The HR20 does that for some users and not for others.

In your comparison I gather the BMW is the Tivo and the Kia is the HR20. I couldn't agree more.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

hasan said:


> Let's cut the personal crap. (on all sides) Why is it so hard to disagree without becoming so disagreeable?


I agree! Let's get back to reporting problems and fixes. I've suggested to Earl that we have one dedicated, problem/fixes thread for each software update that exists solely to report what was fixed and what has broken for each software release. No banter, so sidetracking, no replies from anyone except Earl, just here's what release xx fixed and what it broke. It sure would be more efficient that the current method.

And if you don't have a problem you don't need to post in that thread. Otherwise it's just additional noise.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Based on these kinds of goofy criteria, and with issues still appearing with the latest 6.3 Tivo box firmware......it looks like the old Tivo must be in *beta* after all these years.


Who was responsible for testing 6.3? Would that be Tivo or DTV? I've asked that before in: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=69774

It appears you have no idea what a software release and beta testing truly is, yet you seem very able to spew forth unfacts and mis information.

DTivos can be three years old, but when a new software release for those units comes out, that release must be alpha and beta tested before being released on the public. Are you really saying that "beta testing" refers to a hardware device and not the software running on that device? :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

*EDIT: To answer your question, yes, the HR10 running any new software (like 6.3a) goes through a beta test process. Since you have no knowledge of this process, maybe you need to take a giant step backwards and take a course in software development/software testing.

Clueless. *


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hasan said:


> ....and embarassing yourselves. Let's cut the personal crap. (on all sides) Why is it so hard to disagree without becoming so disagreeable?
> 
> God we need an update!


With all due respect Hasan, HDTVfan asked for it, and we delivered. Enough with the pious, patronizing "Let's all get along" stuff. I mean, you no doubt mean well, but this is your upteenth post along those lines. Embarrassing ourselves? This isn't about disagreeing. It's about a loudmouth, butt-kissing jerk who hangs out here, deserving all the crap he gets. If you don't like it, don't read it. Sorry, but enough is enough. You definitely have to get a sense of humor.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

richadam said:


> The frequency of the releases is disturbing for this reason. For a software driven and complex product such ad the HR20 you need a significant QA process. When new builds are submitted to a rigorous QA process the release must tested from top to bottom. This is a lengthy and labor intensive process. Getting a console game through a publisher QA department and a manufacturer QA department is usually a month to 2 month process.
> 
> Therefore, patches released with such frequency indicates less rigorous approach to testing and certifying a release as ready for deployment.
> 
> The HR20 is not a trivial piece of work, and deploying it into an incredibly diverse number of configurations across the country is a very large challenge. One which appears to require more structure than is currently being employed.


I agree completely. I attempted to bring this up in an earlier thread at: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=66934. If nothing else it did generate some discussion.

As per that thread, I agree with your assessment.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

TomF said:


> I agree! Let's get back to reporting problems and fixes. I've suggested to Earl that we have one dedicated, problem/fixes thread for each software update that exists solely to report what was fixed and what has broken for each software release. No banter, so sidetracking, no replies from anyone except Earl, just here's what release xx fixed and what it broke. It sure would be more efficient that the current method.
> 
> And if you don't have a problem you don't need to post in that thread. Otherwise it's just additional noise.


Sorry, I crossed the line on my last post. But I'm fed up with all of it too. Hence, the response to Hasan. He's always above the fray. And HDTVfan gets what he deserves. Now, back to choir boy status for me. But you're right. People without problems should go enjoy their HR20s. I'm headed back to the NFL game.


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

rirwin1983 said:


> Ok thats it im going there. THIS IS NOT A ****ING TIVO! So stop comparing it to one. First off TIVO is a propitary device. Meaning developed fully from scratch with its own unique fetures and interfaces.
> 
> By comparing the HR20 to a Tivo is like comparing BMW to a Kia. Yea both are cars (and TIVO and the HR20 are both DVR's). But thats where the similarities end. And just like that BMW has been around forever (so this is the TIVO) and Kia is still a new company, at least to the USA (here is the HR20) one can rember when Kia was first introduced in the USA and everything on them was an OPTION! AC Radio, ABS, Air Bags. Those features are faily standard on outher cars for the most part.
> 
> So keep the above in mind the next time you want to compare the 2


You know full well why everyone compares the HR20 to Tivo

1) Tivo didn't create the first DVR, but they are the "mainstream" DVR.

2) D* users *used* to be able to get Tivo DVRs, including HD DVRs.

3) The standard of stability has been established. A stable DVR can be built, and was built.

Just like every other market, customers do not like it when you remove choice, and they REALLY do not like it when you replace a working product with an inferior one that doesn't function to the level of the one it replaced.

Face it... the HR20 can be compared to the HR10 - they were sold by the same company, for the same purpose, on the same satellite service. It is completely fair to compare the HR20 to the HR10, especially since it is through D*s decision (alone) that the HR10 is no longer available.

And as for your car analogy of BMW vs Kia... what would you do if you heard about a car that didn't start within a few weeks after you bought it, would randomly die on the road, that the gas mileage would vary from 25MPG to 2MPG randomly, and that required you to bring it in to the shop weekly for adjustments.

Most states have laws for situations like that... Lemon Laws. Although that's only intended to handle the car-by-car situation. If it's as bad in reality as it sounds on these forums, there would be a recall, a class action lawsuit, and many state AGs would be investigating. The lawyers and politicians can never stay out of those situations. 

I'm saying this even though my HR20 has been flawless. Unlike others, I don't doubt that there are problems, and I'm not going to downplay the fact that others are having legitimate problems that are not entirely related to local wiring issues. I'm also not going to pretend that there are serious systemic problems with the unit. No, they don't show up every time. No, not everyone is having the problem. But enough people are having similar problems that the people on here who are pretending everything is OK are only fooling themselves.

And as for the word "kook"... where exactly is the name calling getting you?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> With all due respect Hasan, HDTVfan asked for it, and we delivered.





tstarn said:


> Hey Earl. Aren't you glad you have a press secretary on par with Tony Snow watching your back? I have to say, if I had this guy on my side, I might consider changing sides.


Almost had me there Tomster. I was all ready to get sucked into a response to your lame bait, but I've refrained - I recognize its just what you do.

Good luck and best wishes - I hope nothing but the best for you and your HR20 experience.

Have a nice day.


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Steve Rhodes said:


> If these very frequent releases were for getting out new features as soon as possible, that's fine. But, if the goal is try to patch a buggy unit with poorly tested patches -- sort of a whack-a-mole approach to software bugs -- then frequent patches are a sign of real trouble in the unit and in the software design process.


Thank you!!! Please Earl, these are not "updates" (features), these are "patches" (bugs) -- to say otherwise is somewhat ahemmmmmm....disingenuous?????


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Actually they *lease* something that happens to work fine for most people.
> 
> That may be....but not all posters are the kooks, sir, only those that 10-12 fit the mold of complaining and whining at least 100 times a day (and believe me, they know who they are and they live for that as their daily entertainment), with no further contribution. They also love to initiate a thread with inflamatory or combative headings. That leaves you out.


Please.....:lol:


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Meklos said:


> You know full well why everyone compares the HR20 to Tivo
> 
> 1) Tivo didn't create the first DVR, but they are the "mainstream" DVR.
> 
> ...


Well stated....thumbs up!!!!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Meklos said:


> I'm saying this even though my HR20 has been flawless. Unlike others, I don't doubt that there are problems, and I'm not going to downplay the fact that others are having legitimate problems that are not entirely related to local wiring issues. I'm also not going to pretend that there are serious systemic problems with the unit.


That's been my take as well, yet stating things are fine gets you insults & attacks, typically be the same handful of people. How dare we have units that work fine.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

perilous said:


> Thank you!!! Please Earl, these are not "updates" (features), these are "patches" (bugs) -- to say otherwise is somewhat ahemmmmmm....disingenuous?????


Have the updates been exclusive bug fixes?

And update is an update is an update.... the box is getting "updated"

Hence why there are three sections to the release notes..

Fixes...
Improvements...
New Features...

Even "patches" in the software world, contain new features...
So I call them what they are... software releases, and updates to the system.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's been my take as well, yet stating things are fine gets you insults & attacks, typically be the same handful of people. How dare we have units that work fine.


For some that don't have problems they simply state that fact. For others that don't have problems, they accuse those with problems as being "kooks", "whiners" and "complainers" and being too lazy to fix those problems on their own.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> For some that don't have problems they simply state that fact. For others that don't have problems, they accuse those with problems as being "kooks", "whiners" and "complainers" and being too lazy to fix those problems on their own.


Nope - just that people fail to consider the fact that the HR20 is not the *SOLE* potential source of their problems. Some folks here are either in denial of that, or simply choose not to take the time to investigate/diagnose the problems further. So be it. After attempting to identify, research, and work with specific people to resolve specific issues (many successfully, I might add), after getting chastised for having to defend this common sense approach at the expense of personal attacks, I've lost any resemblance of sympathy for those with problems. Good luck.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Obviously.


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