# Ces2008 - Hdpc20



## Earl Bonovich

The official information about the HDPC-20

*Product Brochure*
Front
Back


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## phat78boy

Any price or release date time frames yet?


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## Earl Bonovich

phat78boy said:


> Any price or release date time frames yet?


No


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## Greg Alsobrook

very cool earl.... did they actually have one of these on hand today? i don't remember seeing any pics of it...


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## Earl Bonovich

AirRocker said:


> very cool earl.... did they actually have one of these on hand today? i don't remember seeing any pics of it...


They did not.


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## Jeremy W

What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?


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## tony4d

Jeremy W said:


> What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?


Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.

Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.


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## Draconis

tony4d said:


> Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.


If they are saying Vista I'm betting that people running XP MCE (like me) will have to upgrade to use it. <sigh>


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## tony4d

Well, on paper and in pictures this thing rocks. Now I just gotta wait for 2G windows home server that includes media center server. Plug 2 of these in there and I have a sweet dvr system for the house.


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## tony4d

Ratara said:


> If they are saying Vista I'm betting that people running XP MCE (like me) will have to upgrade to use it. <sigh>


Considering they didn't have one at the event it probably won't launch anytime soon, I'm guessing. Anyway, by that time vista sp1 will be out and you should upgrade anyway


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## Jeremy W

tony4d said:


> Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.


I could see it possibly being used for IP callback. It could certainly be possible that DirecTV doesn't want that data traversing through a computer on it's way out. But VOD downloads should definitely be done directly through the computer, since they're stored on the computer.


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## Tom Robertson

The very good news is there is a complete Product number and real product brief. That indicates it's on the way.

Of course, you know it's really about to ship when one of us writes the _DBSTalk First Look_. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Draconis

tony4d said:


> Anyway, by that time vista sp1 will be out and you should upgrade anyway


Actually, I already bought Vista Ultimate, I've just been too lazy to install it.

After all, if it aint broke...

I'm rather looking forward to the HDPC-20, and with those 1 TB HDD's they were showing at another booth you are looking at some great storage space.


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## tony4d

Jeremy W said:


> I could see it possibly being used for IP callback. It could certainly be possible that DirecTV doesn't want that data traversing through a computer on it's way out. But VOD downloads should definitely be done directly through the computer, since they're stored on the computer.


Yea, but even that doesn't make sense. Just because it needs to to call back doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not it needs to send it out on the wire. It could easily just use the PC's network card.

I dunno, got me, makes no sense.


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## OverThereTooMuch

Looks awesome, sign me up!

I would LOVE to have my PC video + DVR video all in one place.

Seems like this thing could plug right into a WHS machine today.

Seems odd that they give you MRV capabilities with Vista PC's, but not with their own receivers (unless I just haven't gotten to that CES announcement yet )


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## dklippi

phat78boy said:


> Any price or release date time frames yet?


Hahaha. As if price matters with this group! I see people with 4 Xbox 360's, 17 HD20's, 100" plasmas, Blu-Ray, etc.....

Date, now that is important! System Requirements would be helpful too so I can start building my new computer now. I have held off upgrading to Vista until this product ships, but I can't wait much longer.


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## BarkingGhost

I think I am about to cancel my two HR21 orders. If this provides the same HD DVR MPEG-4 functionality with me being allowed to create a storage solution then it would be better for me.

Probably a ten year commitment.


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## ToddD

Tom Robertson said:


> The very good news is there is a complete Product number and real product brief. That indicates it's on the way.
> 
> Of course, you know it's really about to ship when one of us writes the _DBSTalk First Look_.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yes and a FCC IDace TDS540ND


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## WyldeStile

This gives me a reason to hold of on my HD PC Tuner card.


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## jkast

Thanks for the information, Earl. Any chance you could re-digitize the brochure at about 4 times the resolution so we could read it?


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## CiXel

The Ethernet port is probably akin to the phone line in other receivers ie. authorizing PPV for the tuners and the like.


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## ladderless

This seems to answer my dreams for a whole-house DVR... Is anyone having consistant success with HD over WIFI? That would complete the circle for me, especially if I didn't need a ful-fledged computer at each TV.


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## robd54

If i missed this questions I apologize, but will it support HD on the PC and recording HD channels to can be watched over an xbox360? Thanks!


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## BudShark

robd54 said:


> If i missed this questions I apologize, but will it support HD on the PC and recording HD channels to can be watched over an xbox360? Thanks!


HDPC certainly implies HD - but the brochure doesn't state specifically.

It will perform any function a tuner in Media Center will - so yes streaming to Xbox360 is a go.

Chris


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## spoonman

tony4d said:


> Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.
> 
> Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.


I saw this too :nono2:


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## UnnDunn

Mac support?

And honestly, if DirecTV can do this without requiring a brand-new, CableCARD certified PC, why can't the Cable folks do it?


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## BudShark

tony4d said:


> Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.
> 
> Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.


I would say XP is definitely out - I never expected anything else.

Two reasons:
1) XP doesn't have the tuner security that I'm sure DirecTV (and its providers) were looking for. Cablecards are only compatible with Vista. At least this solution doesn't require OEM boxes!

2) Microsoft probably required it. They don't want to continue developing new/highly desirable products on XP. They want to continue to build reasons to drive people to Vista and artificially locking new *toys* to Vista is one way they do it.

Chris


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## BudShark

UnnDunn said:


> Mac support?
> 
> And honestly, if DirecTV can do this without requiring a brand-new, CableCARD certified PC, why can't the Cable folks do it?


I don't think DirecTV/Apple ever announced an agreement/partnership, whereas DirecTV/Microsoft did. I think until Apple commits the same resources (people/money/whatever), DirecTV will have little incentive to work with them.

Although this works for me (MSFT guy), I do feel bad for the Mac/Linux users out there. Perhaps if its USB and the security is built into the box... maybe maybe the decoding tools will be opensource or otherwise available to allow the connection in the near future.

Chris


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## turey22

so i could connect this to my pc and it would let me watch a show, movie, or live stream on pc and tv? what else will it do?


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## CaMS

Jeremy W said:


> What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?


I heard that it was only for Development, and it would not be on the final version..those pics that where shown are still prototype's in the design area..but M$ does currently have it up and running inside of VMC.. if you look at the pics, it does not list the ethernet port under input\outputs


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## UnnDunn

turey22 said:


> so i could connect this to my pc and it would let me watch a show, movie, or live stream on pc and tv? what else will it do?


It will allow you to record shows using Windows Media Center on Vista, and in conjunction with a Media Center Extender (eg. Xbox 360 or HP MediaSmart TV), will allow you to watch live and recorded shows on said TV.

An advantage of this is it presumably counts as only one receiver on your account, but Windows Media Center allows streaming on up to 4 Extenders at the same time, network conditions permitting, but you'll only be able to tune two channels simultaneously, so one wonders how they will reconcile that. Even with that limitation, this will serve as a fantastic whole-house DVR solution.


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## digitalfreak

Has it been confirmed by D* that this will indeed be a stand-alone product, and not require a new PC purchase to get one (ala the OCUR boxes)? I've seen a lot of speculation, but no confirmation from any of the folks that actually talked to D* yesterday.


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## UnnDunn

Also, it occurs to me that a Sat-Go style portable antenna would be fantastic in conjunction with this and a media center lapotop.


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## Earl Bonovich

UnnDunn said:


> Also, it occurs to me that a Sat-Go style portable antenna would be fantastic in conjunction with this and a media center lapotop.


That would be a tremendous amount of "stuff" to carry around..


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## Earl Bonovich

At this point... probably just VISTA SP1 and up...
One of the reasons for the delay was because of the security issues around the content, that have supposidly been resolved with Vista SP1

As for the network port.
We will see how this unit communicats with XBOX360... maybe it is possible with software updates on the XBOX360... it can communicate directly with it, instead of through a PC


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## CaMS

UnnDunn said:


> It will allow you to record shows using Windows Media Center on Vista, and in conjunction with a Media Center Extender (eg. Xbox 360 or HP MediaSmart TV), will allow you to watch live and recorded shows on said TV.
> 
> An advantage of this is it presumably counts as only one receiver on your account, but Windows Media Center allows streaming on up to 4 Extenders at the same time, network conditions permitting, but you'll only be able to tune two channels simultaneously, so one wonders how they will reconcile that. Even with that limitation, this will serve as a fantastic whole-house DVR solution.


it will work with any v2 extender such as the new dlink & linksys as well as the 360 and the new HP one...
If this unit is not OEM only, im sure there will be a hack that will let you run 2 of these things..so you can get 4 tuners


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## BudShark

I'd be ok with 1 of these, and OTA tuners. It would eliminate the limitation of the HR2x of only 2 recorded streams. If you could record two OTA, two Satellite, and have your recorded content - I think 1 of these boxes would be fine with extenders...

of course, the more tuners the merrier!

Chris


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## Lee L

CaMS said:


> I heard that it was only for Development, and it would not be on the final version..those pics that where shown are still prototype's in the design area..but M$ does currently have it up and running inside of VMC.. if you look at the pics, it does not list the ethernet port under input\outputs


Well, let me introduce the DirecTV marketing department to a little program called Photoshop.  They could have just edited the darn port out rather than get people all excited or confused.


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## Qusix

I'm currently a cable subscriber. I think the time has come for me to make the switch. I'm looking forward to this product.


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## bhelton71

The thing that scares me about this :

Its probably for Vista only - so imagine trying to delete a program

Delete ? 
OK
A program has requested blah, blah .. Allow ? 
OK
Are You Sure ?
OK
This file will not fit ...
OK
This operation requires elevated status...
OK


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## Earl Bonovich

bhelton71 said:


> The thing that scares me about this :
> 
> Its probably for Vista only - so imagine trying to delete a program
> 
> Delete ?
> OK
> A program has requested blah, blah .. Allow ?
> OK
> Are You Sure ?
> OK
> This file will not fit ...
> OK
> This operation requires elevated status...
> OK


And the problem is?

You can turn off or by pass all of those questions, if you want to disable those features.
I don't want to turn this into an OS battle thread.

But now having used Vista for the last 9 months or so... it is getting a very unfair "rap" out there.


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## ToddD

bhelton71 said:


> The thing that scares me about this :
> 
> Its probably for Vista only - so imagine trying to delete a program
> 
> Delete ?
> OK
> A program has requested blah, blah .. Allow ?
> OK
> Are You Sure ?
> OK
> This file will not fit ...
> OK
> This operation requires elevated status...
> OK


Sounds to me like you've been watching too many Mac commercials.....


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## JayB

bhelton71 said:


> The thing that scares me about this :
> 
> Its probably for Vista only - so imagine trying to delete a program
> 
> Delete ?
> OK
> A program has requested blah, blah .. Allow ?
> OK
> Are You Sure ?
> OK
> This file will not fit ...
> OK
> This operation requires elevated status...
> OK


I understand you're probably kidding here, but I thought I'd mention that I've yet to have media center under Vista give me more than a single confirmation prompt.


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## bhelton71

Earl Bonovich said:


> And the problem is?
> 
> You can turn off or by pass all of those questions, if you want to disable those features.
> I don't want to turn this into an OS battle thread.
> 
> But now having used Vista for the last 9 months or so... it is getting a very unfair "rap" out there.


That was not my intention at all - and from what I understand sp1 will relax some of the dialogs. It was a feeble attempt at humor - ala mac and pc guy commercials.

I will now crawl back into my hole.


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## MIAMI1683

Ealr, if you you are right the the Vista that the public uses now would have to be updated to sp1. Correct? Even the 360 would require a download to make it work.


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## rgreenpc

Earl -

Any chance if you can find out how many of these wonderful machines one can stick on a single PC?


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## greynolds

A few observations:

1) This is AWESOME news.

2) I would have thought they could have put it into a smaller box - 7" tall is a bit much. I'll find a way to make it fit though .

3) I really hope that 2 (or more) of these will work together on the same PC. I currently have a BeyondTV system that uses 6 HD OTA tuners - it's rare that more than 2 are going at the same time, but it does happen. It would be great to have 2 HDPC20's (4 Sat tuners) along with 4 HD OTA tuners all connected to the same box.

4) I'll upgrade to and Vista and use Media Center if I have to, but I really hope there will be a way to make these work with with BeyondTV (and SageTV) - even if I still have to upgrade to Vista.

It'll be interesting to see what the pricing will be AND when we'll be able to get our hands on these.


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## DustoMan

rgreenpc said:


> Earl -
> 
> Any chance if you can find out how many of these wonderful machines one can stick on a single PC?


My guess is only one, but can you imagine having two or three of these on one PC? That's 4-6 video streams! LOL! :eek2:


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## SENATOR

I believe that Butthead captured it best when he said, "This is the coolest thing... I have ever seen."


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## ToddD

MIAMI1683 said:


> Ealr, if you you are right the the Vista that the public uses now would have to be updated to sp1. Correct? Even the 360 would require a download to make it work.


SP 1 will be a automatic update for all vista systems from Microsoft update sometime around the end of February. It's no big deal...I'm typing this on a Vista SP1 system. As far as I know no update to any extender including x360's would be required.


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## Earl Bonovich

bhelton71 said:


> That was not my intention at all - and from what I understand sp1 will relax some of the dialogs. It was a feeble attempt at humor - ala mac and pc guy commercials.
> 
> I will now crawl back into my hole.


Sorry... it is early morning here in Vegas, and my cold is still in full force.


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## CaMS

MIAMI1683 said:


> Ealr, if you you are right the the Vista that the public uses now would have to be updated to sp1. Correct? Even the 360 would require a download to make it work.


NO, it will not be Vista SP1.. you will need the next Vista Media Center update, its codenamed " Fiji ". You will prob. here more info after SP1 gets released, which is hopefully soon, prob. by march.. then we have to wait for the Fiji update, then we are ready to goo..

This is not confirmed but I'm just "assuming" that the Fiji update will be around the 08 Holiday season.. Remember there is no Public beta not even to the elite M$ beta testers YET.. its only available internally to M$.. Usually when a M$ product hits beta, it RTMs around 8 months or so..and thats not including any big holdups..

So just be patient.. SP1 is a step into getting the system ready for this card... and yea it will control the UAC a little better, meaning not 1000 prompts and will beef up security and prob. put some security in place for these tuner card


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## MIAMI1683

ToddD said:


> SP 1 will be a automatic update for all vista systems from Microsoft update sometime around the end of February. It's no big deal...I'm typing this on a Vista SP1 system. As far as I know no update to any extender including x360's would be required.


Nice, kewl stuff. I like Vista and it's been rock solid for me so that's nice to read.


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## BudShark

You know Earl... I could be on a plane by 10:00am Eastern if you need someone to take your place out there... 

Chris


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## Earl Bonovich

MIAMI1683 said:


> Ealr, if you you are right the the Vista that the public uses now would have to be updated to sp1. Correct? Even the 360 would require a download to make it work.


99.9% chance that it will need SP1, as over the last year... that was one of the main reasons why the unit didn't move foward faster (the HDPC-20).

SP1 is already an RC IIRC, so available for download to anyone that wants it today, and soon ready as a full blown released item...

And given that people have commented that the 360 can't talk directly to an item like this, yes... I would think the 360 would need a software update to talk directly to it.
If that is going to be an option (that is just speculation regarding the comments of working with 360 in the documents)


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## bakerfall

Earl Bonovich said:


> 99.9% chance that it will need SP1, as over the last year... that was one of the main reasons why the unit didn't move foward faster (the HDPC-20).
> 
> SP1 is already an RC IIRC, so available for download to anyone that wants it today, and soon ready as a full blown released item...
> 
> And given that people have commented that the 360 can't talk directly to an item like this, yes... I would think the 360 would need a software update to talk directly to it.


A lot of the extender stuff is actually on the PC side (you need to install extender software when initially setting up the connection to the 360), so most likely there is an update on that end. The 360 may also have an update, but I think most of it will be PC based.

I'm really pumped for this, but I'll have to start prepping the wife that I need to buy a new computer.


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## MIAMI1683

That's big news. I didn't realize sp1 was already downloadable I may try to load it tonight.


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## ToddD

rgreenpc said:


> Earl -
> 
> Any chance if you can find out how many of these wonderful machines one can stick on a single PC?


As has been the case with past media center products (turners) the official answer is 2 tuners or in this case one HDPC20. But "hacks" exist to add more than the officially supported number of tuners. The most interesting thing will be if these reside in the analog tuners space or digital one. Media center has a official limit of 2 of each type. Please do not be confused by the tuner space names, there are lot s of tuners that tune digital TV streams but reside in the analog tuner space,CableCard being one such example.

It has been reported that the next Media Center update (Fuji) will add official support for 4 tuners in each space. Fuji is expected latter this year.


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## digitalfreak

DustoMan said:


> My guess is only one, but can you imagine having two or three of these on one PC? That's 4-6 video streams! LOL! :eek2:


I already have 4 OTA tuners in my Vista MCE machine. All 4 can record at one time without a single hiccup. I've seen folks with 8 tuners running at once.


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## BudShark

bakerfall said:


> A lot of the extender stuff is actually on the PC side (you need to install extender software when initially setting up the connection to the 360), so most likely there is an update on that end. The 360 may also have an update, but I think most of it will be PC based.
> 
> I'm really pumped for this, but I'll have to start prepping the wife that I need to buy a new computer.


The thought/remote possibility is that the HDPC20 will work directly off the USB port of the 360 - effectively turning the 360 into an advanced DirecTV receiver (no PC, no extender, no Vista - just a 360)

Which would be really cool for dorms/colleges/apartments... I'd like the MRV solution of having it on a PC, but IF they make it work directly with a 360 I can see the value.

Chris


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## CaMS

CaMS said:


> NO, it will not be Vista SP1.. you will need the next Vista Media Center update, its codenamed " Fiji ". You will prob. here more info after SP1 gets released, which is hopefully soon, prob. by march.. then we have to wait for the Fiji update, then we are ready to goo..
> 
> This is not confirmed but I'm just "assuming" that the Fiji update will be around the 08 Holiday season.. Remember there is no Public beta not even to the elite M$ beta testers YET.. its only available internally to M$.. Usually when a M$ product hits beta, it RTMs around 8 months or so..and thats not including any big holdups..
> 
> So just be patient.. SP1 is a step into getting the system ready for this card... and yea it will control the UAC a little better, meaning not 1000 prompts and will beef up security and prob. put some security in place for these tuner card


And as far as the 360.. YES it will need a update to work with playing the Directv content...remember as of right now its VERY limted on the codecs it can play.. ESP. on the extender end..


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## MIAMI1683

bakerfall said:


> A lot of the extender stuff is actually on the PC side (you need to install extender software when initially setting up the connection to the 360), so most likely there is an update on that end. The 360 may also have an update, but I think most of it will be PC based.
> 
> I'm really pumped for this, but I'll have to start prepping the wife that I need to buy a new computer.


My extender was built in right from Vista. It comes up and finds my 360 from the start without any help. It's literally just plug and play. I use Vista Ultimate. Maybe thats why


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## bakerfall

MIAMI1683 said:


> My extender was built in right from Vista. It comes up and finds my 360 from the start without any help. It's literally just plug and play. I use Vista Ultimate. Maybe thats why


I used Vista for a while but it didn't like my video card so I switched back to xp media center, I guess I don't remember all the steps.

It was pretty painless with XP, from what I remember, but definitely involved an install.


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## BudShark

CaMS said:


> And as far as the 360.. YES it will need a update to work with playing the Directv content...remember as of right now its VERY limted on the codecs it can play.. ESP. on the extender end..


Actually when used with Vista and Media Center- it shouldn't. Vista would be doing to capture/recording and the result would be a standard media center encoded file/stream which would work just fine with the Xbox360 - same as cablecards, etc... It would just be another tuner.

Chris


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## ToddD

bhelton71 said:


> That was not my intention at all - and from what I understand sp1 will relax some of the dialogs. It was a feeble attempt at humor - ala mac and pc guy commercials.
> 
> I will now crawl back into my hole.


Hope you did not feel like you were being picked on....it's just that those Mac commercials have made us Vista people rather sensitive. :eek2:


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## CaMS

BudShark said:


> Actually when used with Vista and Media Center- it shouldn't. Vista would be doing to capture/recording and the result would be a standard media center encoded file/stream which would work just fine with the Xbox360 - same as cablecards, etc... It would just be another tuner.
> 
> Chris


Not sure on that, is the cablecard systems MPEG4??


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## bakerfall

BudShark said:


> Actually when used with Vista and Media Center- it shouldn't. Vista would be doing to capture/recording and the result would be a standard media center encoded file/stream which would work just fine with the Xbox360 - same as cablecards, etc... It would just be another tuner.
> 
> Chris


That's kind of what I'm thinking. I don't believe there have been any extender updates for the 360 yet, (although there should be as codec support does not trickle down from Media Center). So far as TV is concerned, it shouldn't be an issue.


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## Yogi76

Jeremy W said:


> What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?


This is from a post I also made on the The Green Button.

You will notice there are acutally two USB ports and an ethernet port. One USB is a USB "A" plug, which is typically used for an incoming USB connection, while the other is a USB "B" plug, normally for an outgoing USB connection. I would assume the USB "B" is for connecting the tuner straight to a Media Center computer.

The ethernet and USB "A" plug are a little more tricky. If I had to guess (and this is only a GUESS), I would say it's for networked tuning support similar to an HDHomerun; the ethenet port for wired access, obviously, and the USB port for an add-on wireless device. Remember, most people that currently have DirecTV have the cables running from the dish to their living room or bedrooms, not to their home office. For someone who will have their Media Center computer in the living room connected directly to the TV, they will simply connect the HDPC-20 via USB. For those that want to have the computer in the office and use an Extender, they will be able to place the HDPC-20 behind the TV in the living room using the existing DirecTV cabling and then connect it to their home network for the home office PC to control. I use a similar setup with my HDHomerun and cable (clear QAM) currently.

Also, something else that makes me think (hope) it is for network tuning is the fact that the original OCUR test devices had ethernet tuning capabilities. It was even mentioned in the AnandTech review that it would be removed in the first models to be added back in at a later time. That hasn't happened yet on the digital cable tuners, but they run into less of a problem with coax coming into the house. Many homes have cable coax outlets in every room already. DirecTV typically runs straight from the dish to the device, and currently that device is in the living room for the great majority of DirecTV subscribers.

I can't post a URL on this board yet, but you can see the original OCUR with ethernet and mention of it's removal by searching for "ocur ethernet anandtech" on Google.

Yogi


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## ToddD

CaMS said:


> Not sure on that, is the cablecard systems MPEG4??


The Media Center security for Advanced TV (today CableCARD) does not store the files in the transmitted formats. So the File that will be played back from the Media Center will be a WMV stream...no update to the extender is needed....and remember if we are talking X360 it has two different playback file sets, one for extender and one for x360 dashboard.


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## UnnDunn

Is it possible that this device would transcode incoming MPEG4 signals into MPEG2 before sending it to the PC? It seems to me that would solve any codec issues...


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## ToddD

Yogi76 said:


> This is from a post I also made on the The Green Button.
> 
> You will notice there are acutally two USB ports and an ethernet port. One USB is a USB "A" plug, which is typically used for an incoming USB connection, while the other is a USB "B" plug, normally for an outgoing USB connection. I would assume the USB "B" is for connecting the tuner straight to a Media Center computer.
> 
> The ethernet and USB "A" plug are a little more tricky. If I had to guess (and this is only a GUESS), I would say it's for networked tuning support similar to an HDHomerun; the ethenet port for wired access, obviously, and the USB port for an add-on wireless device. Remember, most people that currently have DirecTV have the cables running from the dish to their living room or bedrooms, not to their home office. For someone who will have their Media Center computer in the living room connected directly to the TV, they will simply connect the HDPC-20 via USB. For those that want to have the computer in the office and use an Extender, they will be able to place the HDPC-20 behind the TV in the living room using the existing DirecTV cabling and then connect it to their home network for the home office PC to control. I use a similar setup with my HDHomerun and cable (clear QAM) currently.
> 
> Also, something else that makes me think (hope) it is for network tuning is the fact that the original OCUR test devices had ethernet tuning capabilities. It was even mentioned in the AnandTech review that it would be removed in the first models to be added back in at a later time. That hasn't happened yet on the digital cable tuners, but they run into less of a problem with coax coming into the house. Many homes have cable coax outlets in every room already. DirecTV typically runs straight from the dish to the device, and currently that device is in the living room for the great majority of DirecTV subscribers.
> 
> I can't post a URL on this board yet, but you can see the original OCUR with ethernet and mention of it's removal by searching for "ocur ethernet anandtech" on Google.
> 
> Yogi


You raise a good point ...most people do not realize that while OCUR turners plug into the PC via USB they are network devices . They have a embedded Web page. There has been talk of a OCUR over ethernet.


----------



## chrisfowler99

Hmm...2 USB ports. Chaining?

The PC Link port looks like the one that will go directly to the PC.

And there's another USB port. Another HDPC20? An AM21?

Curious...


----------



## bhelton71

ToddD said:


> Hope you did not feel like you were being picked on....it's just that those Mac commercials have made us Vista people rather sensitive. :eek2:


Not at all - it was a poorly placed joke in a very public thread - this one might hit 20,000 reads before the end of the week.


----------



## Yogi76

Some of the big questions that have been longstanding in the MCE community regarding the DirecTV tuner are:

1.) Will it be OEM only requiring the purchase of a "certified" computer with a special BIOS, etc.?

2.) Will it wrap all recordings in DRM like the current CableCard Media Center recordings? This prevents the use of tools like DVRMSToolbox, transferring recordings to a laptop, or the transcoding of recordings for use on portable devices?

3.) Price and availability? I know we probably won't get the answer to this one, but I can hope on the first two.

Yogi


----------



## mikela

Yogi76 said:


> This is from a post I also made on the The Green Button.
> 
> You will notice there are acutally two USB ports and an ethernet port. One USB is a USB "A" plug, which is typically used for an incoming USB connection, while the other is a USB "B" plug, normally for an outgoing USB connection. I would assume the USB "B" is for connecting the tuner straight to a Media Center computer.
> 
> The ethernet and USB "A" plug are a little more tricky. If I had to guess (and this is only a GUESS), I would say it's for networked tuning support similar to an HDHomerun; the ethenet port for wired access, obviously, and the USB port for an add-on wireless device. Remember, most people that currently have DirecTV have the cables running from the dish to their living room or bedrooms, not to their home office. For someone who will have their Media Center computer in the living room connected directly to the TV, they will simply connect the HDPC-20 via USB. For those that want to have the computer in the office and use an Extender, they will be able to place the HDPC-20 behind the TV in the living room using the existing DirecTV cabling and then connect it to their home network for the home office PC to control. I use a similar setup with my HDHomerun and cable (clear QAM) currently.
> 
> Also, something else that makes me think (hope) it is for network tuning is the fact that the original OCUR test devices had ethernet tuning capabilities. It was even mentioned in the AnandTech review that it would be removed in the first models to be added back in at a later time. That hasn't happened yet on the digital cable tuners, but they run into less of a problem with coax coming into the house. Many homes have cable coax outlets in every room already. DirecTV typically runs straight from the dish to the device, and currently that device is in the living room for the great majority of DirecTV subscribers.
> 
> I can't post a URL on this board yet, but you can see the original OCUR with ethernet and mention of it's removal by searching for "ocur ethernet anandtech" on Google.
> 
> Yogi


Do you think the extra usb port could be for direct connection to a storage device or anything else besides networking?


----------



## BudShark

CaMS said:


> Not sure on that, is the cablecard systems MPEG4??


Doesn't matter...

The HDPC20 will decode the MPEG4/MPEG2 stream and feed it to Vista Media Center. Vista will take the stream from the HDPC20 and process it in the same way it would OTA, cable, cablecard, etc. The result should be a Media Center file with DRM to limit the distribution of the content.

Anyhow - the resulting file would be served up no different to an Xbox360 extender than anything else on that Media Center. They won't have special encoding for DirecTV and the extender will not need to decode raw DirecTV streams...

Chris


----------



## ToddD

UnnDunn said:


> Is it possible that this device would transcode incoming MPEG4 signals into MPEG2 before sending it to the PC? It seems to me that would solve any codec issues...


If it's like the OCUR's for CableCard, The incoming stream is demodulated, decrypted and the mpeg stream is extracted within the turner and the resulting stream is then re compressed in Windows Media format with Windows Media DRM.

This stream is sent to the Media Center Turner app and a encrypted dvr-ms file is spooled to the file system.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Yogi76 said:


> Some of the big questions that have been longstanding in the MCE community regarding the DirecTV tuner are:
> 
> 1.) Will it be OEM only requiring the purchase of a "certified" computer with a special BIOS, etc.?
> 
> 2.) Will it wrap all recordings in DRM like the current CableCard Media Center recordings? This prevents the use of tools like DVRMSToolbox, transferring recordings to a laptop, or the transcoding of recordings for use on portable devices?
> 
> 3.) Price and availability? I know we probably won't get the answer to this one, but I can hope on the first two.
> 
> Yogi


For #1: It is not expected to be an OEM only item.
For #2: You can all but guarantee that DRM will be involved with the recordings


----------



## DirecTV3049

Well, I'll take my turn at getting whacked.

Why the ethernet port?

Well, if you think about it as just a glorified HR20 set top box for a PC (rather than for a television), doesn't it make sense?

This "set top box" stores data on your PC's hard drive(s) via the USB connection. I'm assuming that that the data stored on your PC is "encrypted" - like it is for the external hard drives some are now using with their HR20s. That is, the data stored on your PC has to go back to the "set top box" to be de-encrypted before you can watch it on your television - so when you want to watcha recorded show, you have to send the encrypted data from your PC's hard drive back to the set top box via the USB connection.

Once the data is unencrypted by the set top box, is there any reason to send the data *back* down to the PC via USB and out to your home network (and extender) via the PC's NIC? From a data security standpoint, it may not even be desirable to do so.

I'm guessing that it probably works "better" (being used here subjectively) for the set top box to just send the unencrypted data directly out to your network through the set top box's ethernet port. 

Just a WAG. Now, I'll stand back and prepared to be flamed.


----------



## bakerfall

ToddD said:


> If it's like the OCUR's for CableCard, The incoming stream is demodulated, decrypted and the mpeg stream is extracted within the turner and the resulting stream is then re compressed in Windows Media format with Windows Media DRM.
> 
> This stream is sent to the Media Center Turner app and a encrypted dvr-ms file is spooled to the file system.


My guess is this is exactly what would happen.


----------



## jefbal99

I would venture a guess that the 2nd USB port would be for an OTA tuner such as the AM21


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jefbal99 said:


> I would venture a guess that the 2nd USB port would be for an OTA tuner such as the AM21


Or it could just be a USB Hub, so that you don't have to use a hub, and can directly connect the device... ect....

It is getting kinda common to see mini hubs in usb devices not ment to be disconnected on a regular basis.


----------



## bakerfall

jefbal99 said:


> I would venture a guess that the 2nd USB port would be for an OTA tuner such as the AM21


I would say that's highly unlikely. As Earl mentioned in the other thread, this probably wouldn't be the case. Plus, D* would have no real need or reason to venture into PC OTA solutions, when there are already plenty of companies successfully making them.


----------



## mva5580

Hi everyone, I joined this board simply on this news alone, this is THE thing I've been waiting for. I'm going crazy over here lol. I guess the one thing I want to make sure of before I'm 100% sure that my cable is going to be canceled and I'm going DirecTV is that this will undoubtedly play all of the HD stations over the PC without any issues. And not just the OTA stuff, i'm talking the ESPNHD, TNTHD, etc, etc. If and when that is confirmed, oh my. I am IN like crazy lol. I understand that the name "HDPC20" certainly implies it, but I'm just waiting for that confirmation.


----------



## ToddD

DirecTV3049 said:


> Well, I'll take my turn at getting whacked.
> 
> Why the ethernet port?
> 
> Well, if you think about it as just a glorified HR20 set top box for a PC (rather than for a television), doesn't it make sense?
> 
> This "set top box" stores data on your PC's hard drive(s) via the USB connection. I'm assuming that that the data stored on your PC is "encrypted" - like it is for the external hard drives some are now using with their HR20s. That is, the data stored on your PC has to go back to the "set top box" to be de-encrypted before you can watch it on your television - so when you want to watcha recorded show, you have to send the encrypted data from your PC's hard drive back to the set top box via the USB connection.
> 
> Once the data is unencrypted by the set top box, is there any reason to send the data *back* down to the PC via USB and out to your home network (and extender) via the PC's NIC? From a data security standpoint, it may not even be desirable to do so.
> 
> I'm guessing that it probably works "better" (being used here subjectively) for the set top box to just send the unencrypted data directly out to your network through the set top box's ethernet port.
> 
> Just a WAG. Now, I'll stand back and prepared to be flamed.


I'd guess that the Ethernet port is for IP phone home just as is being added for the HR 2x line...note there is no phone jack!


----------



## breevesdc

Hey Earl... I'm just throwing this out there.

Does this development mean that D* has given up on their Home Media box (or whatever it was called)? I seem to recall them announcing a Home Media server box a couple of years back. It was supposed to act as a "server" (with all of your SAT/OTA inputs going into it for recording/tuning) which would allow you to connect smaller "client" receivers and stream to each of them. It would seem to me that this venture would be a huge waste of money since people would be much more likely (IMHO) to use Media Center with the HDPC20. With an HTPC, you have a lot more flexibility (size of HD, CPU, RAM, etc.) than you do with a box built by D* that you would have to hack (and thus void the warranty) to upgrade. I would tend to think that anyone interested in this kind of a setup is a techie anyway and would prefer a solution they control instead of one that D* controls. Just a thought.

Brian


----------



## Earl Bonovich

breevesdc said:


> Hey Earl... I'm just throwing this out there.
> 
> Does this development mean that D* has given up on their Home Media box (or whatever it was called)? I seem to recall them announcing a Home Media server box a couple of years back. It was supposed to act as a "server" (with all of your SAT/OTA inputs going into it for recording/tuning) which would allow you to connect smaller "client" receivers and stream to each of them. It would seem to me that this venture would be a huge waste of money since people would be much more likely (IMHO) to use Media Center with the HDPC020. With an HTPC, you have a lot more flexibility (size of HD, CPU, RAM, etc.) than you do with a box built by D* that you would have to hack (and thus void the warranty) to upgrade. Just a thought.
> 
> Brian


The HMC that was announced 3 CES's ago (or was it longer).... is pretty much a gone thing.

You have seen pieces of it in their newer systems.

Sure the HDPC-20 could lead you to something like that...
But so will the future MRV feature for the HR20/21


----------



## MIAMI1683

Ok another question earl, if it has all the tunres and a card will it take the place of my hrxx, one reciever insted of having to pay the lease fee on two. Or maybe D* will doulbe dip you for the access fee, (lease fee)


----------



## CaMS

BudShark said:


> Doesn't matter...
> 
> The HDPC20 will decode the MPEG4/MPEG2 stream and feed it to Vista Media Center. Vista will take the stream from the HDPC20 and process it in the same way it would OTA, cable, cablecard, etc. The result should be a Media Center file with DRM to limit the distribution of the content.
> 
> Anyhow - the resulting file would be served up no different to an Xbox360 extender than anything else on that Media Center. They won't have special encoding for DirecTV and the extender will not need to decode raw DirecTV streams...
> 
> Chris


The directv stream is H.264, the 360 currently does not support that codec.. so it will need a upgrade at some point to play it natively on the 360


----------



## jagowar

Yogi76 said:


> Some of the big questions that have been longstanding in the MCE community regarding the DirecTV tuner are:
> 
> 1.) Will it be OEM only requiring the purchase of a "certified" computer with a special BIOS, etc.?
> 
> 2.) Will it wrap all recordings in DRM like the current CableCard Media Center recordings? This prevents the use of tools like DVRMSToolbox, transferring recordings to a laptop, or the transcoding of recordings for use on portable devices?
> 
> 3.) Price and availability? I know we probably won't get the answer to this one, but I can hope on the first two.
> 
> Yogi


those are my questions as well.... 
1. will be a critical step in making this a mainstream product. people are not going to buy new computers to use the product. will be interesting to see what the process is to get the device (who you have to go through to get it). i really want probably 3 of them so hopefully its possible to get that many.

2. having mpeg4 would be good but hopefully dvr-ms can handle it since currently its always been a wrapper for mpeg2. would kinda suck to only be able to record in mpeg2 if dvr-ms/vista isnt capable of mpeg4 compression. Also would hate to lose the ability to stream via webguide and lose my auto commercial editing via lifextender.

3. yeah there is no telling how long the device will take.... im guessing its quite a ways off still.

I really hope directv does the right thing here and make it simple to upgrade to unlike cablelabs. they would become the defacto provider for media center overnight in the US.


----------



## ladderless

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or it could just be a USB Hub, so that you don't have to use a hub, and can directly connect the device... ect....
> 
> It is getting kinda common to see mini hubs in usb devices not ment to be disconnected on a regular basis.


...Or it could be a way to connect a thumb drive to dump video for play on another machine or laptop...

Wait - I think I'm waking up now...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jkast said:


> Thanks for the information, Earl. Any chance you could re-digitize the brochure at about 4 times the resolution so we could read it?


If you are on IE...
Just click on the image, and it will zoom it in.


----------



## bakerfall

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HMC that was announced 3 CES's ago (or was it longer).... is pretty much a gone thing.
> 
> You have seen pieces of it in their newer systems.
> 
> Sure the HDPC-20 could lead you to something like that...
> But so will the future MRV feature for the HR20/21


Wasn't gonna let that last little bit slide


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MIAMI1683 said:


> Ok another question earl, if it has all the tunres and a card will it take the place of my hrxx, one reciever insted of having to pay the lease fee on two. Or maybe D* will doulbe dip you for the access fee, (lease fee)


Lease fees are based on ACCESS cards.

So if you have an HR20 and the HDPC20 you will be paying two fees (with at least 1 credited with your base subscription)


----------



## UnnDunn

ToddD said:


> If it's like the OCUR's for CableCard, The incoming stream is demodulated, decrypted and the mpeg stream is extracted within the turner and the resulting stream is then re compressed in Windows Media format with Windows Media DRM.
> 
> This stream is sent to the Media Center Turner app and a encrypted dvr-ms file is spooled to the file system.


I thought DVR-MS files were MPEG2, not WMV...


----------



## bakerfall

ladderless said:


> ...Or it could be a way to connect a thumb drive to dump video for play on another machine or laptop...
> 
> Wait - I think I'm waking up now...


I would think that "dumping" for play on another system would have to go through the Media Center box, not the tuner box, since all the files/file system are stored on the PC.


----------



## ToddD

CaMS said:


> The directv stream is H.264, the 360 currently does not support that codec.. so it will need a upgrade at some point to play it natively on the 360


it's not going to work natively on X360....just as an extender. Note that in the info sheet- Vista Media Center is required.

Also not that the X360 has no TV turner controls ....only the extender client app that works with the Media Center extender app.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Earl Bonovich said:


> Lease fees are based on ACCESS cards.
> 
> So if you have an HR20 and the HDPC20 you will be paying two fees (with at least 1 credited with your base subscription)


Yea I thought so, so it won't hook up to my tv in place of say an hr20 and get connetced through your network, It is a standalone device and will have an access card in it, and thus the extra lease fee. So essentially its two more tuners for my pc.


----------



## ToddD

UnnDunn said:


> I thought DVR-MS files were MPEG2, not WMV...


They are....the WMV streams are used for transport from the tuner to the system...the MC turner app decrypts and unspools the streams and rewrites them in a encrypted drv-ms file format.


----------



## bakerfall

MIAMI1683 said:


> Yea I thought so, so it won't hook up to my tv in place of say an hr20 and get connetced through your network, It is a standalone device and will have an access card in it, and thus the extra lease fee. So essentially its two more tuners for my pc.


Two tuners, but one fee. It's essentially another receiver.


----------



## BudShark

ToddD said:


> it's not going to work natively on X360....just as an extender. Note that in the info sheet- Vista Media Center is required.
> 
> Also not that the X360 has no TV turner controls ....only the extender client app that works with the Media Center extender app.


Yes and no. The brochure states it comes with a "custom remote control" - hence - there is an implication there that this is a "tuner" with a USB output. The remote isprobably RF to allow remote changing of channels (hopefully - and I don't see an IR eye in the picture).

So with that said - the possibilities are really open as to its use. It could be USB control/ethernet control/RF control. It could be a standalone tuner that works on the network, it could be a USB receiver that works with multiple OS's or devices (like a 360 or PS3), etc.

In my opinion, day1 it will be a dedicated Vista Media Center tuner - with DRM and the ability to managed/channel changes via USB. Day 30+ who knows. I have my hopes that this could be something special due to the possibilities implied, but, more likely DRM will severely limit its use.

Chris


----------



## ToddD

BudShark said:


> Yes and no. The brochure states it comes with a "custom remote control" - hence - there is an implication there that this is a "tuner" with a USB output. The remote isprobably RF to allow remote changing of channels (hopefully - and I don't see an IR eye in the picture).
> 
> So with that said - the possibilities are really open as to its use. It could be USB control/ethernet control/RF control. It could be a standalone tuner that works on the network, it could be a USB receiver that works with multiple OS's or devices (like a 360 or PS3), etc.
> 
> In my opinion, day1 it will be a dedicated Vista Media Center tuner - with DRM and the ability to managed/channel changes via USB. Day 30+ who knows. I have my hopes that this could be something special due to the possibilities implied, but, more likely DRM will severely limit its use.
> 
> Chris


Well that would require a lot of changes by the xbox team.....and would be I would think a security nightmare. Plus how do you get around the fact that it says that VMC is REQUIRED.


----------



## Thaedron

Earl Bonovich said:


> But so will the future MRV feature for the HR20/21


Speaking of MRV, that feature has been suspiciously absent from any of the CES updates. Do you have any insight into why they wouldn't be talking about HR2X - HR2X MRV?


----------



## bakerfall

BudShark said:


> Yes and no. The brochure states it comes with a "custom remote control" - hence - there is an implication there that this is a "tuner" with a USB output. The remote probably RF to allow remote changing of channels (hopefully - and I don't see an IR eye in the picture).
> 
> So with that said - the possibilities are really open as to its use. It could be USB control/ethernet control/RF control. It could be a standalone tuner that works on the network, it could be a USB tuner that works with multiple OS's or devices (like a 360 or PS3), etc.
> 
> In my opinion, day1 it will be a dedicated Vista Media Center tuner - with DRM and the ability to managed/channel changes via USB. Day 30+ who knows. I have my hopes that this could be something special due to the possibilities implied, but, more likely DRM will severely limit its use.
> 
> Chris


I would bet the remote would be if you were using your computer to watch tv. If you are using an extender, you would use that remote (or perhaps there will be a universal component to the D* remote allowing you to use it with an extender).

As for it working with a "360 or PS3", that isn't ever going to happen _directly_. This is a tuner sending raw data to a PC which handles all the work (decoding, guide data, recording, etc.). Neither the 360 or PS3 has this capability. The 360 is also a Media Center Extender which is how it will be able to be used. The PS3 has no such capability.


----------



## CaMS

todd, ok maybe natively was the wrong word to use.. but the 360 will need some kind of codec upate to support playback from the Directv tuner..

look for example the divx\xvid problem.. the PC can play them fine, so can the dashboard but when u try and play one of those files inside the extender (VMC) portion of the 360 it says video codec not suported..


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Even on it's first release... it may or may not work DirecTV with XBOX360...
But given that the XBOX360 is nothing more then a very specialized computer, there is no reason to think that if the demand is there...

That something couldn't be done.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Thaedron said:


> Speaking of MRV, that feature has been suspiciously absent from any of the CES updates. Do you have any insight into why they wouldn't be talking about HR2X - HR2X MRV?


Because they have been talking about it all year...
And it is something that is already known to be coming.

CES this year is mostly about things that have only been rumored or vaguely references.


----------



## jhrain

Finally, something I can sink my teeth into! I absolutely cannot wait for this to come out. 

We were "THIS" close to walking away from our contract because of no TIVO.

This changes everything... as long as it happens sooner, rather than later.

:sure:


----------



## MIAMI1683

bakerfall said:


> Two tuners, but one fee. It's essentially another receiver.


Yea it's another reciver for you media network, but won't hook up to your tv. I guess I could extend and get another 360 and out it in the room and get rid off one lease fee or two lease fees with the other hr20 but thats a lot of work to me


----------



## BudShark

ToddD said:


> Plus how do you get around the fact that it says that VMC is REQUIRED.


Well... I never said it would work. I just said it was potential and my hope and something we shouldn't rule out.

But how I get around that is simple. Like I said, Day 1 it will be a Vista Media Center tuner - thats it. Down the line, the product features and requirements can be changed. Maybe it will work with Mac, Linux, PS3, Xbox360 - who knows.

Chris


----------



## bakerfall

MIAMI1683 said:


> Yea it's another reciver for you media network, but won't hook up to your tv. I guess I could extend and get another 360 and out it in the room and get rid off one lease fee or two lease fees with the other hr20 but thats a lot of work to me


You could also buy 4 360s, have it on 4 TVs and not pay any fees (if you remove all your boxes). One receiver is included in your D* subscription, if you have it setup correctly, there is no need to have any other D* boxes.


----------



## rgreenpc

So do you get two tuners for one fee with this or would you still pay for 2 "cards"?


----------



## bakerfall

rgreenpc said:


> So do you get two tuners for one fee with this or would you still pay for 2 "cards"?


1 card. All DVRs have two tuners, this is no different.


----------



## Steve

ladderless said:


> This seems to answer my dreams for a whole-house DVR... Is anyone having consistant success with HD over WIFI? That would complete the circle for me, especially if I didn't need a ful-fledged computer at each TV.


I'm not getting how this wouldn't require a computer at each TV, or even provide a whole-house solution. Enlighten me, please?  /steve


----------



## BudShark

bakerfall said:


> As for it working with a "360 or PS3", that isn't ever going to happen _directly_. This is a tuner sending raw data to a PC which handles all the work (decoding, guide data, recording, etc.). Neither the 360 or PS3 has this capability. The 360 is also a Media Center Extender which is how it will be able to be used. The PS3 has no such capability.


Ok - this is all SPECULATION and conjecture on my part, but...

Both the PS3 and 360 are just computers. Thats it. The PS3 already has an announced digital tuner that turns it into a DVR (for Europe) so its a no-brainer that it could work with this - IF they wanted it to.

The 360 already does on the fly decoding of various codecs. There's no reason to think that it couldn't decode the stream coming from the HDPC20.

The truth is both COULD do it. Will either be allowed to is another question.

Chris


----------



## houskamp

MIAMI1683 said:


> Yea it's another reciver for you media network, but won't hook up to your tv. I guess I could extend and get another 360 and out it in the room and get rid off one lease fee or two lease fees with the other hr20 but thats a lot of work to me


not to mention the power requirements of a pc compaired to a reciever would suck up that 4.99 in a hurry..


----------



## BudShark

Steve said:


> I'm not getting how this wouldn't require a computer at each TV, or even provide a whole-house solution. Enlighten me, please?  /steve


It would require an XBOX360 or other media center extender at each TV... The extender can stream recorded or live content from the centralized computer which negates the need for a PC/tuner at each TV.

Chris


----------



## MIAMI1683

bakerfall said:


> You could also buy 4 360s, have it on 4 TVs and not pay any fees (if you remove all your boxes). One receiver is included in your D* subscription, if you have it setup correctly, there is no need to have any other D* boxes.


Right that would work, and my bill would go down  , but I have all three hrxx so its definately a cool product, but MRV will be better for me I think as Earl has said that is coming also. Very cool guys Earl awesome stuff from out there Thanks again......

D-


----------



## aenea

It won't be a RF remote, there's no need for it. *You* don't change channels on the tuner. You tell Media Center, either directly or through an extender, to change the channel and it decides which tuner to use and issues the channel change command and with this device it would use the usb connection. The "special" remote probably just has DirecTV specific buttons.



BudShark said:


> Yes and no. The brochure states it comes with a "custom remote control" - hence - there is an implication there that this is a "tuner" with a USB output. The remote isprobably RF to allow remote changing of channels (hopefully - and I don't see an IR eye in the picture).
> 
> So with that said - the possibilities are really open as to its use. It could be USB control/ethernet control/RF control. It could be a standalone tuner that works on the network, it could be a USB receiver that works with multiple OS's or devices (like a 360 or PS3), etc.
> 
> In my opinion, day1 it will be a dedicated Vista Media Center tuner - with DRM and the ability to managed/channel changes via USB. Day 30+ who knows. I have my hopes that this could be something special due to the possibilities implied, but, more likely DRM will severely limit its use.
> 
> Chris


----------



## bakerfall

BudShark said:


> Ok - this is all SPECULATION and conjecture on my part, but...
> 
> Both the PS3 and 360 are just computers. Thats it. The PS3 already has an announced digital tuner that turns it into a DVR (for Europe) so its a no-brainer that it could work with this - IF they wanted it to.
> 
> The 360 already does on the fly decoding of various codecs. There's no reason to think that it couldn't decode the stream coming from the HDPC20.
> 
> The truth is both COULD do it. Will either be allowed to is another question.
> 
> Chris


I guess it's possible, since it's already been announced that the 360 is going to be a Mediaroom reciever (MS IPTV). I guess I just like whole centralized server configuration.


----------



## JayB

You can sign me up for this device. I got an HR20 in May, but ultimately wasn't thrilled with this as a solution since I have to pop back and forth between it an my media center machine for different content. Add the ability to easily add additional storage "at will" and I'm pretty much sold.


----------



## bakerfall

JayB said:


> You can sign me up for this device. I got an HR20 in May, but ultimately wasn't thrilled with this as a solution since I have to pop back and forth between it an my media center machine for different content. Add the ability to easily add additional storage "at will" and I'm pretty much sold.


I'm not going to ditch my HRs and if they get Media Share working better (and with different codecs) along with MRV, it would be almost as good as this.

However, I think it's going to be a long while (if ever) that the HR media experience will be able to compete with the Windows MC one.


----------



## rgreenpc

bakerfall said:


> This is a tuner sending raw data to a PC which handles all the work (decoding, guide data, recording, etc.). Neither the 360 or PS3 has this capability. The 360 is also a Media Center Extender which is how it will be able to be used. The PS3 has no such capability.


Actually MOST decoding is handled on the cards and is just converted to the DVR-MS format.

I currently run 2 OTA HD tuners and 2 DirecTV boxes via s-video and recording all 4 streams at once I rarely get above 20% CPU usage.


----------



## ToddD

aenea said:


> It won't be a RF remote, there's no need for it. *You* don't change channels on the tuner. You tell Media Center, either directly or through an extender, to change the channel and it decides which tuner to use and issues the channel change command and with this device it would use the usb connection. The "special" remote probably just has DirecTV specific buttons.


I'd bet that the remote is due to the fact that as MC is now part of Vista (Home Premium and Ultimate ) and not as in the past sold as a special version, most people have the software but no hardware...i.e. a remote! 
Yes this allows for it to be a directv remote

You know....that might explain the 2nd USB port... the MC remote receiver uses a USB connection so maybe they have added a USB hub and a usb port for the remote receiver to plug into the turner instead of the pc so you only need 1 USB port on the PC....Also makes it easy to install ....that seems to be an issue if you note the statement on the fact sheet.


----------



## Ryan

Will it be possible to hook up two (or more) of these units to one PC? 4 tuners x 4 outputs (via extender) with potentially vast amounts of storage via sata raid solutions sounds like the ultimate home media server.

ReplayTV had (has) a feature that would automaticly spread recording duties across multiple units (not quite as necessary with two-tuner satellite equipment); does Media Center do this? 

If you can hook up two units to one PC, will media center operate them as two separate devices, or as one 4-tuner device?

Using Media Center, can I integrate a unit like this with something like the HDHomeRun to allow OTA/clear QAM recording all via the same front end?

Wow...the potential for this is quite extraordinary! I guess I'd better start trying out the Media Center features of my PC.


----------



## ChrisL01

There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.

A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.

DVR-MS is a wrapper that could theoretically have any format within. Again, it is not WMV.

The Xbox 360 can be used as a Media Center Exender. The Extender decodes and decrypts video locally. Raw video is not sent over the network, this isn't even feasible.

All tuners that work in Media Center on the PC will work on a Media Center Extender. The DIRECTV tuner is no exception.

Media Center does not transcode any video on-the-fly. None. It is not even a feature of Media Center.

The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.

There have been pictures on the web for years for a DIRECTV Blade on the Xbox 360 Dashboard. If this tuner does work like that, the Xbox 360 Dashboard would need an update. The scans don't make light of this happening. The Xbox 360 as an Extender will work however.

I highly doubt this DIRECTV tune is transcoding video to WMV or MPEG-2 internally. That would be both un-needed and add a significant cost to the product. The MPEG-2 or H.264 video is likely to be wrapped in WMDRM in the same sort of fashion that CableCARD is.

This tuner likely doesn't work in any OS but Vista and only works within the Media Center application within Vista Home Premium/Ultimate. The OS requirement is listed on the scans.

Currently Media Center supports two (2) NTSC/CableCARD tuners + two (2) ATSC tuners. Unless this official limit changes with the next Media Center release it will mean that one (1) DIRECTV tuner [Dual Tuner] + two (2) ATSC tuners will be supported at once.

Vista SP1 is not a feature release, rather a Service Pack. It is not likely that SP1 will make the DIRECTV tuner work. Part of the framework for it to work might be included, but a separate Media Center release (Fiji) is planned at a later date.

The SP1 that can be downloaded now is an Release Candidate. It is not a final release which means you are running pre-production software. I'd use it at your own risk.

Chris Lanier


----------



## bakerfall

ChrisL01 said:


> There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.
> 
> A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.
> 
> DVR-MS is a wrapper that could theoretically have any format within. Again, it is not WMV.
> 
> The Xbox 360 can be used as a Media Center Exender. The Extender decodes and decrypts video locally. Raw video is not sent over the network, this isn't even feasible.
> 
> All tuners that work in Media Center on the PC will work on a Media Center Extender. The DIRECTV tuner is no exception.
> 
> Media Center does not transcode any video on-the-fly. None. It is not even a feature of Media Center.
> 
> The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.
> 
> There have been pictures on the web for years for a DIRECTV Blade on the Xbox 360 Dashboard. If this tuner does work like that, the Xbox 360 Dashboard would need an update. The scans don't make light of this happening. The Xbox 360 as an Extender will work however.
> 
> I highly doubt this DIRECTV tune is transcoding video to WMV or MPEG-2 internally. That would be both un-needed and add a significant cost to the product. The MPEG-2 or H.264 video is likely to be wrapped in WMDRM in the same sort of fashion that CableCARD is.
> 
> This tuner likely doesn't work in any OS but Vista and only works within the Media Center application within Vista Home Premium/Ultimate. The OS requirement is listed on the scans.
> 
> Currently Media Center supports two (2) NTSC/CableCARD tuners + two (2) ATSC tuners. Unless this official limit changes with the next Media Center release it will mean that one (1) DIRECTV tuner [Dual Tuner] + two (2) ATSC tuners will be supported at once.
> 
> Vista SP1 is not a feature release, rather a Service Pack. It is not likely that SP1 will make the DIRECTV tuner work. Part of the framework for it to work might be included, but a separate Media Center release (Fiji) is planned at a later date.
> 
> The SP1 that can be downloaded now is an Release Candidate. It is not a final release which means you are running pre-production software. I'd use it at your own risk.
> 
> Chris Lanier


Thank you for all that. Very succinct and accurate.


----------



## xzi

Ryan said:


> Will it be possible to hook up two (or more) of these units to one PC? 4 tuners x 4 outputs (via extender) with potentially vast amounts of storage via sata raid solutions sounds like the ultimate home media server.


Probably not. The current limitation on Media Center is (2) OTA tuners, and (2) regular tuners. I'd imagine this will fall under the later.



Ryan said:


> ReplayTV had (has) a feature that would automaticly spread recording duties across multiple units (not quite as necessary with two-tuner satellite equipment); does Media Center do this?


Media Center does not do this, and Windows Home Server will NOT add this functionality. Windows Home Server has NO TV or recording capability--it is just a storage OS--everyone seems to be a bit confused about this product.



Ryan said:


> If you can hook up two units to one PC, will media center operate them as two separate devices, or as one 4-tuner device?


If it was possible, but yes it would actually probably see them as four seperate tuners. My "dual tuner" Adaptec NTSC tuner shows up as seperate devices.



Ryan said:


> Using Media Center, can I integrate a unit like this with something like the HDHomeRun to allow OTA/clear QAM recording all via the same front end?


Yes, but ONLY because the HDHomeRun fools the OS into thinking it's an OTA device. You can mix OTA and regular tuners, but what you CAN'T do is have a two regular tuners from two different services. The guide only supports OTA and another source.



Ryan said:


> Wow...the potential for this is quite extraordinary! I guess I'd better start trying out the Media Center features of my PC.


It has some very important limitations to consider and based on the questions you asked you are setting the bar pretty high for Media Center. However, if you have live with the limitations there is no alternative solution that has the support, integration and polish of Media Center. All the open source alternatives support more products and features, but with comes lack of good extender support (XBOX360), lack of product support (no way this will work with them anytime soon) and a definate lack of any sort of "plug and play" setup. You'll be fighting with it weekly to get it work the way you want. Finally, it will lack the big money support from MS, and it shows in their awful menu designs and horrible interfaces.


----------



## CaMS

ChrisL01 said:


> There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.
> 
> A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.
> 
> DVR-MS is a wrapper that could theoretically have any format within. Again, it is not WMV.
> 
> The Xbox 360 can be used as a Media Center Exender. The Extender decodes and decrypts video locally. Raw video is not sent over the network, this isn't even feasible.
> 
> All tuners that work in Media Center on the PC will work on a Media Center Extender. The DIRECTV tuner is no exception.
> 
> Media Center does not transcode any video on-the-fly. None. It is not even a feature of Media Center.
> 
> The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.
> 
> There have been pictures on the web for years for a DIRECTV Blade on the Xbox 360 Dashboard. If this tuner does work like that, the Xbox 360 Dashboard would need an update. The scans don't make light of this happening. The Xbox 360 as an Extender will work however.
> 
> I highly doubt this DIRECTV tune is transcoding video to WMV or MPEG-2 internally. That would be both un-needed and add a significant cost to the product. The MPEG-2 or H.264 video is likely to be wrapped in WMDRM in the same sort of fashion that CableCARD is.
> 
> This tuner likely doesn't work in any OS but Vista and only works within the Media Center application within Vista Home Premium/Ultimate. The OS requirement is listed on the scans.
> 
> Currently Media Center supports two (2) NTSC/CableCARD tuners + two (2) ATSC tuners. Unless this official limit changes with the next Media Center release it will mean that one (1) DIRECTV tuner [Dual Tuner] + two (2) ATSC tuners will be supported at once.
> 
> Vista SP1 is not a feature release, rather a Service Pack. It is not likely that SP1 will make the DIRECTV tuner work. Part of the framework for it to work might be included, but a separate Media Center release (Fiji) is planned at a later date.
> 
> The SP1 that can be downloaded now is an Release Candidate. It is not a final release which means you are running pre-production software. I'd use it at your own risk.
> 
> Chris Lanier


Hey chris..

welcome aboard.. i see you received my email.. thanks and hopefully this clears up some things over hear


----------



## bhelton71

ChrisL01 said:


> There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.
> 
> <clip>
> The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.
> <clip>
> Chris Lanier


I don't have a 360 so I don't know this for fact - but I thought there was an update to enable H264 decoding in the past year ?


----------



## dirchm0628

This is the best news regarding PVR's I've seen. I jumped from Snapstream Beyond TV to HR20-700 in August because of the lack of HD recording capabilities in BTV (non OTA). I recently upgraded a machine to Vista Home Premium with Media Center for photos and music. Now with this devide I could move my HTPC back to my living room and move the HR20-700 to another room. Any Idea if the two devices will see and be able to play each others recordings? That would be the icing on the cake for me.

Also If I put my Dvicio Fusion HD back in the PC will it work in conjunction with the HDCP Direct TV device????


----------



## ChrisL01

bhelton71 said:


> I don't have a 360 so I don't know this for fact - but I thought there was an update to enable H264 decoding in the past year ?


Yes, but only for the Xbox 360 Dashboard. The Extender function uses different codec's and it does not currently support H.264.

It isn't likely recordings will be playable using the Dashboard because of DRM.

Chris


----------



## CaMS

bhelton71 said:


> I don't have a 360 so I don't know this for fact - but I thought there was an update to enable H264 decoding in the past year ?


Bh - yes there was but the problem is that the updates that M$ have been releasing are for the dashboard ONLY not the Extender version of the xbox.. The extender team are totally separate from the xbox tean and on a totally different time schedule..hence why u are not seeing updates on the extender side of the 360.. but it will be coming..but no time frame


----------



## xzi

ChrisL01 said:


> Media Center does not transcode any video on-the-fly. None. It is not even a feature of Media Center.


Those of us who have been fighting with Transcode360 know this limitation all too well 



ChrisL01 said:


> The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.


The XBox360 doesn't decode H.264 within Media Center yet. It does, however, through the blade interface. My understanding from Microsoft is Media Center will do this eventually--right now it is purely a licensing-cost issue as H.264 is not a free CODEC (much like MPEG-2 isn't, either). They have announced it will do it eventually, though, and probably only when you actually have a device that needs it (like this) so as to keep licensing costs down (hell, they will probably back that cost into the price of this device).


----------



## aenea

Not for the media center client. Just for content played from the dashboard. Since this tuner is for media center, the media center client for the 360 would have to be updated.



bhelton71 said:


> I don't have a 360 so I don't know this for fact - but I thought there was an update to enable H264 decoding in the past year ?


----------



## bakerfall

aenea said:


> Not for the media center client. Just for content played from the dashboard. Since this tuner is for media center, the media center client for the 360 would have to be updated.


Right now to get the most out of 360 video playback, you really need to use both the Media Center and Dashboard playback tools.

Media Center codecs: .mpg, .wmv, .dvr-ms

Dashboard codecs: .avi (divx/xvid included), .wmv, h.264

Neither does "everything". Media center on the PC uses your PC's codecs so even things like .mkv work.


----------



## hoyty76

ChrisL01 said:


> The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.
> 
> Chris Lanier


I normally wouldn't disagree with Chris in regards to MCE stuff but I think you are wrong on this one. The Xbox 360 with HD-DVD has to be able to decode H.264 since some movies are encoded that way. The drive itself doesn't do any decoding so the decoding is done by the 360. It may not have had the ability to decode H.264 via a stream enabled but it surely can decode H.264 or it wouldn't be a complaint HD-DVD drive.

Edit: I see Chris responded to this. I understand the distinction now Extender blade vs. Media or HD-DVD blades. However the codec is available for the 360 so it is more an enabling of it than creating.


----------



## digitalfreak

ChrisL01 said:


> There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.
> 
> Currently Media Center supports two (2) NTSC/CableCARD tuners + two (2) ATSC tuners. Unless this official limit changes with the next Media Center release it will mean that one (1) DIRECTV tuner [Dual Tuner] + two (2) ATSC tuners will be supported at once.
> 
> Chris Lanier


Chris - since you are 'da MCE man, how does that HTPC vendor that's selling a PC with 4 OCUR tuners getting around the limitation? Can't remember the name unfortunately. I would assume it's using the standard hack, but that seems kinda tricky for a company that has to support a product.


----------



## bakerfall

hoyty76 said:


> I normally wouldn't disagree with Chris in regards to MCE stuff but I think you are wrong on this one. The Xbox 360 with HD-DVD has to be able to decode H.264 since some movies are encoded that way. The drive itself doesn't do any decoding so the decoding is done by the 360. It may not have had the ability to decode H.264 via a stream enabled but it surely can decode H.264 or it wouldn't be a complaint HD-DVD drive.


HD-DVD playback is still done through the 360 software itself, not the MCE software.

MCE and 360 dashboard are two totally different things.


----------



## ChrisL01

hoyty76 said:


> I normally wouldn't disagree with Chris in regards to MCE stuff but I think you are wrong on this one. The Xbox 360 with HD-DVD has to be able to decode H.264 since some movies are encoded that way. The drive itself doesn't do any decoding so the decoding is done by the 360. It may not have had the ability to decode H.264 via a stream enabled but it surely can decode H.264 or it wouldn't be a complaint HD-DVD drive.


This is covered just above is about five posts, but The _Xbox 360 Extender_ doesn't currently decode H.264. The Dashboard can, the HD DVD Playback can, the Media Center Extender function of the Xbox 360 can _not._

Hard to believe how stupid that is, but it is very true.

Chris


----------



## ChrisL01

digitalfreak said:


> Chris - since you are 'da MCE man, how does that HTPC vendor that's selling a PC with 4 OCUR tuners getting around the limitation? Can't remember the name unfortunately. I would assume it's using the standard hack, but that seems kinda tricky for a company that has to support a product.


Microsoft has made some changes to the conflict management, but overall the OEM's offering four CableCARD tuners for CI's are basically using the tuner registry hack.

There is really no technical reason four DIRECTV tuners can't be supported, but that's a change Microsoft has to officially make sure they can be setup within the UI.

Chris


----------



## JayB

xzi said:


> Windows Home Server has NO TV or recording capability--it is just a storage OS--everyone seems to be a bit confused about this product.


True. I think the confusion is coming from 2 sources - first the fact that WHS can be a media sharing device. You can configure it, just like with Media Player, to share all the music, pictures, and video on the server - in fact the HR20 will even play the music and pictures shared in this way. Second, there are some tricks that you can do that allows you to use the WHS machine as a storage device for your dvr-ms files - my understanding is that once they're on the WHS and if you have sharing on, it's very similar to the experience you can get (for playback at least) of using the extender setup from Media Center.

Oh and the third thing of my "2" things is that there's the persistent rumor that WHS v2 will allow for tuners and recording. This may be just wishful thinking however, but if it's on the tubes of the interweb, some take it as gospel.


----------



## BudShark

ChrisL01 said:


> [snip]
> A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.
> [snip]
> Chris Lanier


I think this content answers my point.

The satellite stream coming into the HDPC20 will be demodulated and the MPEG content will be exposed. It will then be wrapped in WMDRM and output via USB (or potentially ethernet). Correct?

So - here's my thoughts/questions:
1) The DirecTV data (including channel, guide, info, etc). Will it be left in stream or decoded and dumped? Media Center pulls its own guide data, so I would assume it would have no use for DirecTVs data correct?

2) The HDPC20 will need to change the frequency to tune various channels. This could be done either via USB, ethernet, the remote control, or an IR extender.

3) The raw WMDRM (in your description) is captured by Media Center and this raw data (which is MPEG2/4) is sent to the 360 for on the fly decoding. So the only thing missing from making this work natively with the 360 (or any other device that is WMDRM compatible/authorized) is the ability to isolate one of the tuners and change the frequency. IF the HDPC20 had a single tuner mode AND the remote was full funtioning - you would have a fully capable USB tuner (obviously the 360 or whatever other device, would need a mode to expose this - but that would be it. The channel changing and demodulation done by the HDPC20, the MPEG decoding done by the 360 or other device).

4) My only questions would be:
Can the HDPC20 insert guide data on the fly?
Is the remote a full functioning remote (able to change channels, list guide, etc)?
Is WMDRM the only sanctioned DRM output or will there be other DRM compatbile output modes?

I am hoping the HDPC20 is basically a H2x with dual tuners and no MPEG decoding chip on board. This would make it the ideal solution. A DirecTV tuner with raw streaming MPEG output (once you could deal with DRM requirements)

Chris


----------



## ShapeGSX

DVR-MS files can basically be shared with all computers on your home network via network shares, and they should be decrypted fine. I'm not entirely sure what the rules are for this. But yeah, WHS could definitely be a storage device for a different Media Center computer.


----------



## ChrisL01

BudShark said:


> I think this content answers my point.
> 
> The satellite stream coming into the HDPC20 will be demodulated and the MPEG content will be exposed. It will then be wrapped in WMDRM and output via USB (or potentially ethernet). Correct?


That is how it currently work with CableCARD, so I'd expect the same or near same to be at work here.



BudShark said:


> So - here's my thoughts/questions:
> 1) The DirecTV data (including channel, guide, info, etc). Will it be left in stream or decoded and dumped? Media Center pulls its own guide data, so I would assume it would have no use for DirecTVs data correct?


It will likely be using in-band EPG data from the D* stream. See http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/archive/2007/12/21/1409645.aspx



BudShark said:


> 3) The raw WMDRM (in your description) is captured by Media Center and this raw data (which is MPEG2/4) is sent to the 360 for on the fly decoding. So the only thing missing from making this work natively with the 360 (or any other device that is WMDRM compatible/authorized) is the ability to isolate one of the tuners and change the frequency. IF the HDPC20 had a single tuner mode AND the remote was full funtioning - you would have a fully capable USB tuner (obviously the 360 or whatever other device, would need a mode to expose this - but that would be it. The channel changing and demodulation done by the HDPC20, the MPEG decoding done by the 360 or other device).


WMDRM is actually Windows Media Digital Rights Management, which would likely be used to protect the content. The reason the Xbox 360 Extender will control it is because an Extender session is local on the PC (basically a separate user account named MCX1, MCX2, MCX3 depending on your Extender).

Making it work directly with the Xbox 360 Dashboard is would a bit more difficult.

Also, for the past five years content that is WMDRM protected for Media Center can't be played back on any device expect the Media Center PC it was recorded on and Extenders. If the same holds, it doesn't matter if the device supports WMDRM or not because Extender's are the only devices that work in the first place (proxy issues, etc).



BudShark said:


> 4) My only questions would be:
> Can the HDPC20 insert guide data on the fly?


The EPG data should be in-band, so yes.



BudShark said:


> Is the remote a full functioning remote (able to change channels, list guide, etc)?


Very likely yes. It is most likely an RC6 remote that will work with any Extender and/or the PC. Your not controling the tuner, the PC is passing the commands to the tuner.



BudShark said:


> Is WMDRM the only sanctioned DRM output or will there be other DRM compatbile output modes?


Can't tell you for sure, but WMDRM is the only DRM method that has ever been used within Media Center.

Chris


----------



## huskerpat

as long as I can combine this with an OTA tuner in the MCE program guide, I'll be switching from dish with this is released.


----------



## ChrisL01

ShapeGSX said:


> DVR-MS files can basically be shared with all computers on your home network via network shares, and they should be decrypted fine. I'm not entirely sure what the rules are for this. But yeah, WHS could definitely be a storage device for a different Media Center computer.


Unless they are protected in the same type of method CableCARD and CGMS-A recordings are today. In this case, the DRM can only be decrypted on Media Center Extenders and the PC it was recorded on. Depending on the protection it can also limit storage, but I believe CableCARD can be stored on a WHS without much issue.

Chris


----------



## belogical

Wow, great news... I guess it was good timing getting my Windows Home Server. This is going to be awesome, been waiting for this for a long time.

FYI, been on Vista Ultimate for awhile. Love it.


----------



## BudShark

ChrisL01 said:


> [snip]Can't tell you for sure, but WMDRM is the only DRM method that has ever been used within Media Center.
> 
> Chris


What I am looking for is the potential of using this device outside of Media Center - whether its with a 360, Linux, Mac, etc.

The more "full functioning" the device is, the more likely it is to work elsewhere. So if its a H2x series receiver without MPEG decoding, this means the device itself would be capable of frequency tuning, in-line guide presentation, etc. Once we know this, then we can begin to determine what options might be there.

I'd like to know more about the WMDRM management. If thats done via hardware/software within the HDPC20 and whether or not there's the potential for other DRM solutions. I'm guessing "Hollywood" wouldn't sanction anything other than WMDRM at this time - severely limiting the options and making this a Media Center only solution (which I think it could be so much more).

Chris


----------



## VLaslow

jkast said:


> Thanks for the information, Earl. Any chance you could re-digitize the brochure at about 4 times the resolution so we could read it?


It looks like a mock up that is done many times in printing; the pictures are there, but the words are gibberish and to be filled in later.

But I see from the dual tuner doc that I was mistaken. Real words for real fanatics (like us).


----------



## phat78boy

We've been thinking of the network jack in terms of computers and extenders. How about for use for MRV to other DirecTV boxes like the HR21?


----------



## Thaedron

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because they have been talking about it all year...
> And it is something that is already known to be coming.
> 
> CES this year is mostly about things that have only been rumored or vaguely references.


I was hoping for something in the way of a planned release date, but that can probably be inferred from the other capabilities (at least a relative timeframe).


----------



## PennHORN

I am a recent Macbook convert after being a PC user for years. I have the latest and greatest Intel chip in my laptop. Assuming a Mac solution a la EyeConnect for MediaShare is not created, can I still use my laptop to be my media center. Will I need to get Vista on my machine. Would it then work?


----------



## bakerfall

phat78boy said:


> We've been thinking of the network jack in terms of computers and extenders. How about for use for MRV to other DirecTV boxes like the HR21?


Possible, but doubtful. Any such integration would have to go through the PC anyway, since it's doing all the work (and would have to tune into said video.) I think it's highly unlikely since MCE would have to change.


----------



## Mykroft

tony4d said:


> Yea, but even that doesn't make sense. Just because it needs to to call back doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not it needs to send it out on the wire. It could easily just use the PC's network card.
> 
> I dunno, got me, makes no sense.


Actually it's perfectly logical of them to design an ethernet port on this device itself for three reasons.

First of all, you may not have your PC connected to the network and internet. You may not have an ethernet adapter (although, in this day and age, that's highly unlikely) on your host PC. Putting the port on the tuner itself makes it so they can still support VOD and IP callback. Granted, most people who'll end up getting one of these will likely not fall into this category, they probably did it to just cover their bases on possible user setup.

Second of all, DirecTV is very touchy about keeping their data secure across the wire. Sending IP callback and other messages through the host PC and then to the internet seems like it'd be a no brainer, but doing that is less secure than just sending it over the wire on its own dedicated port. As a software engineer, this makes perfect sense to me.

Lastly, I one might think that the PC could just download VOD content on its own, but everything from DirecTV is likely to be encrypted, and the decryption will likely HAVE to be done on this tuner. (Where I'm guessing the access card(s) will be inserted) Again, it's more secure from a content pipeline security point of view to have this also done on the tuner itself so it can be decoded and then sent to the PC. (Where it will likely be re-encrypted with MS-DRM)


----------



## Mykroft

UnnDunn said:


> Mac support?
> 
> And honestly, if DirecTV can do this without requiring a brand-new, CableCARD certified PC, why can't the Cable folks do it?


Because the cable folks are crazy psychos.


----------



## phat78boy

bakerfall said:


> Possible, but doubtful. Any such integration would have to go through the PC anyway, since it's doing all the work (and would have to tune into said video.) I think it's highly unlikely since MCE would have to change.


No, it wouldn't need to go through the PC and thats my exact point. MCE most likely isn't going to open up support for DirecTV boxes. The HDPC20 is, in my mind, like an HR20/21 that is using your PC as its HDD. So in that aspect, to do MRV it would be a lot easier to just have say an H21 talk directly to the HDPC20 which would in turn talk to its HDD(PC) to get the movie or show.


----------



## bakerfall

phat78boy said:


> No, it wouldn't need to go through the PC and thats my exact point. MCE most likely isn't going to open up support for DirecTV boxes. The HDPC20 is, in my mind, like an HR20/21 that is using your PC as its HDD. So in that aspect, to do MRV it would be a lot easier to just have say an H21 talk directly to the HDPC20 which would in turn talk to its HDD(PC) to get the movie or show.


Unless there is more going on under the hood than advertised, I just don't think that's the case.


----------



## jagowar

BudShark said:


> What I am looking for is the potential of using this device outside of Media Center - whether its with a 360, Linux, Mac, etc.
> 
> The more "full functioning" the device is, the more likely it is to work elsewhere. So if its a H2x series receiver without MPEG decoding, this means the device itself would be capable of frequency tuning, in-line guide presentation, etc. Once we know this, then we can begin to determine what options might be there.
> 
> I'd like to know more about the WMDRM management. If thats done via hardware/software within the HDPC20 and whether or not there's the potential for other DRM solutions. I'm guessing "Hollywood" wouldn't sanction anything other than WMDRM at this time - severely limiting the options and making this a Media Center only solution (which I think it could be so much more).
> 
> Chris


I say there is a very small chance it will ever work outside of vista.... sagetv is a possibility but i dont see mac or linux support coming. this is a partnership between directv and microsoft which was developed specifically for vista.

i dont think there will be any hacking of things like silicon dust has managed to do with the hdhomerun.


----------



## Mykroft

CaMS said:


> The directv stream is H.264, the 360 currently does not support that codec.. so it will need a upgrade at some point to play it natively on the 360


Just to clarify, all tuners in Vista Media Center decode down to the raw media stream, then VMC re-encodes it using WMV and applies Windows Media DRM to that stream. That's is what is stored on the hard drive in DVR-MS files. When the media is streamed to extenders (including the 360), it's just the DVR-MS file that's WMV encoded being streamed and decoded by the 360.

So, no, the 360 will likely NOT need an update. The only thing that would likely need updating is the PC to include the new drivers to support this tuner in VMC.


----------



## Paznos

Wow now this is something I would want, can't wait to hear more details about it, would go nice with my 24" monitor.


----------



## mathism

DirecTV integration with Xbox 360 was announced at CES 2006, but no details were released since then. I guess this is the first clue, it'll still be interesting to see how it works on the Xbox side of things.

Maybe the box will be taking the signals from the tuner and converting them to the IPTV format that Microsoft should already have software support for?


----------



## ToddD

Mykroft said:


> Just to clarify, all tuners in Vista Media Center decode down to the raw media stream, then VMC re-encodes it using WMV and applies Windows Media DRM to that stream. That's is what is stored on the hard drive in DVR-MS files. When the media is streamed to extenders (including the 360), it's just the DVR-MS file that's WMV encoded being streamed and decoded by the 360.
> 
> So, no, the 360 will likely NOT need an update. The only thing that would likely need updating is the PC to include the new drivers to support this tuner in VMC.


almost correct....DVR-MS files are MPEG2 not WMV (although it is true that they could contain other formats)


----------



## bakerfall

mathism said:


> DirecTV integration with Xbox 360 was announced at CES 2006, but no details were released since then. I guess this is the first clue, it'll still be interesting to see how it works on the Xbox side of things.
> 
> Maybe the box will be taking the signals from the tuner and converting them to the IPTV format that Microsoft should already have software support for?


:beatdeadhorse: The 360 functionality is strictly as a media center extender.


----------



## Mykroft

phat78boy said:


> No, it wouldn't need to go through the PC and thats my exact point. MCE most likely isn't going to open up support for DirecTV boxes. The HDPC20 is, in my mind, like an HR20/21 that is using your PC as its HDD. So in that aspect, to do MRV it would be a lot easier to just have say an H21 talk directly to the HDPC20 which would in turn talk to its HDD(PC) to get the movie or show.


Support for DirecTV was baked into Vista early on in the design in Vista. Essentially the same support they added for CableCard tuners was also intended to work with DirecTV.

While you could think of this tuner as a small version of an HR20/21, I don't think you can assume it just "uses" the computer's hard drive for storage. There's a complex process of decoding the source signal (HDPC-20), re-encoding the raw signal as MPEG2 (Windows) and applying DRM (Windows).

Based on my experience with OTA and CAbleCard tuners in VMC, this tuner is essentially just a tuner, it's job is to decode the proprietary DirecTV signal so it can be consumed by VMC. Once it does that, it'll all be in the hands of VMC as it works now.


----------



## ChrisL01

Mykroft said:


> Just to clarify, all tuners in Vista Media Center decode down to the raw media stream, then VMC re-encodes it using WMV and applies Windows Media DRM to that stream. That's is what is stored on the hard drive in DVR-MS files. When the media is streamed to extenders (including the 360), it's just the DVR-MS file that's WMV encoded being streamed and decoded by the 360.
> 
> So, no, the 360 will likely NOT need an update. The only thing that would likely need updating is the PC to include the new drivers to support this tuner in VMC.


I don't know where you heard this, but it is _completely wrong_.

Microsoft requires NTSC/Analog tuners to have hardware MPEG-2 encoders. The MPEG-2 is not touched, rather just up into an DVR-MS wrapper. It is not transocded to WMV or any other format.

ATSC tuners take the digital broadcast and drop it untouched into the DVR-MS wrapper.

CableCARD tuners take the MPEG-2 w/ copy protection and remove the protection then reapply a new protection (WMDRM).

No tuners in Media Center re-encode/transcode anything to WMV. DVR-MS is not WMV. It is a simple wrapper. WMDRM can be applied in DVR-MS without the video being WMV (which is good, because there is no tuner that put WMV in DVR-MS).

Please, please don't think that anything is transcoded. Please let me know where you read this information so it can be fixed.

Chris


----------



## Capmeister

I. Must. Have. One.

Just sayin'.


----------



## ChrisL01

Mykroft said:


> Support for DirecTV was baked into Vista early on in the design in Vista. Essentially the same support they added for CableCard tuners was also intended to work with DirecTV.
> 
> While you could think of this tuner as a small version of an HR20/21, I don't think you can assume it just "uses" the computer's hard drive for storage. There's a complex process of decoding the source signal (HDPC-20), re-encoding the raw signal as WMV (Windows) and applying DRM (Windows).
> 
> Based on my experience with OTA and CAbleCard tuners in VMC, this tuner is essentially just a tuner, it's job is to decode the proprietary DirecTV signal so it can be consumed by VMC. Once it does that, it'll all be in the hands of VMC as it works now.


This is also incorrect and misleading. Vista added several content protection technologies that D* support is likely to use, but CableCARD and D* are entirely different and require much more behind the scenes then you appear to understand. There will be a big software update to allow the D* tuners to work.

And again, nothing is en-encoded to WMV!

Chris


----------



## Mykroft

ToddD said:


> almost correct....DVR-MS files are MPEG2 not WMV (although it is true that they could contain other formats)


Oops, sorry, yes, that's what I meant. Point being it's not the raw DirecTV signal.


----------



## aenea

..


----------



## Mykroft

ChrisL01 said:


> I don't know where you heard this, but it is _completely wrong_.
> 
> Microsoft requires NTSC/Analog tuners to have hardware MPEG-2 encoders. The MPEG-2 is not touched, rather just up into an DVR-MS wrapper. It is not transocded to WMV or any other format.
> 
> ATSC tuners take the digital broadcast and drop it untouched into the DVR-MS wrapper.
> 
> CableCARD tuners take the MPEG-2 w/ copy protection and remove the protection then reapply a new protection (WMDRM).
> 
> No tuners in Media Center re-encode/transcode anything to WMV. DVR-MS is not WMV. It is a simple wrapper. WMDRM can be applied in DVR-MS without the video being WMV (which is good, because there is no tuner that put WMV in DVR-MS).
> 
> Please, please don't think that anything is transcoded. Please let me know where you read this information so it can be fixed.
> 
> Chris


I already stated in another post that I mean to say that it's stored in the DVR-MS as MPEG2 instead of WMV... that was just me thinking of the two as the same thing, which they're obviously not. I edited my original post, sorry for the confusion.

And actually, I'm almost 100% sure I'm correct here. I may not have chosen the best words, so sorry for that. I said that tuners decode to the raw stream... that's what I meant by MPEG2. They have to decode it from the wire format, decrypt it, whatever. (Which is my way of saying removing protection)

Then it has to be stored into a DVR-MS file ... whether or not that signal is changed isn't the point ... my point is that it's stored in a file of a specific format, which is DVR-MS. It may just be a wrapper on the MPEG2 data, but from a developers point of view (which is what I am), that's a change in format, albeit a small one. No, it's not transcoding the _entire_ signal.


----------



## Mykroft

ChrisL01 said:


> This is also incorrect and misleading. Vista added several content protection technologies that D* support is likely to use, but CableCARD and D* are entirely different and require much more behind the scenes then you appear to understand. There will be a big software update to allow the D* tuners to work.
> 
> And again, nothing is en-encoded to WMV!
> 
> Chris


I never said they were the same! Where did I say that? Obviously they're different, my point was that core technologies were added to VMC before it was ever released so that they could integrate both CableCard and DirecTV tuners into their VMC/DRM scheme without "major" updates.


----------



## RoundRockJohn

This a very compelling product, and I'd have to seriously consider it. I think the key factor is going to be how much and how good are the media extenders are going to behave with this unit.

All in all, I think the only people happier than the forum posters are about this thing are the people who sell them hard drives.


----------



## Chop69

Hey guys,

ChrisL01 is a moderator (owner?) of www.thegreenbutton.com, which is pretty much the DBSTalk of Windows Media Center.

You can view anything he says as Gospel; as much as anything Earl says over here.


----------



## ChrisL01

Mykroft said:


> I already stated in another post that I mean to say that it's stored in the DVR-MS as MPEG2 instead of WMV... that was just me thinking of the two as the same thing, which they're obviously not. I edited my original post, sorry for the confusion.


Sadly again, it still isn't right if you look at the most advanced TV capture. CableCARD content is not encoded at all, either is ATSC. I wouldn't expect D* to be re-encoded just because it is H.264.

The only time content is re-encoded is when it is captured using an analog tuner that has a hardware MPEG-2 encoder.



Mykroft said:


> I never said they were the same! Where did I say that? Obviously they're different, my point was that core technologies were added to VMC before it was ever released so that they could integrate both CableCard and DirecTV tuners into their VMC/DRM scheme without "major" updates.


And my point is the opposite. If you were just talking about DRM, that's basically right. However, D* tuners can't be integrated using what is there in Vista now.

Chris


----------



## Yogi76

RoundRockJohn said:


> All in all, I think the only people happier than the forum posters are about this thing are the people who sell them hard drives.


One of the good things about this is that the DVR-MS files produced by this will almost certainly be H.264 files, which will be quite a bit smaller than the current MPEG-2 files I'm recording from my HDHomerun. So, I'll actually be able to get a lot more TV on my 600GB drive dedicated for recording TV on my Vista Media Center box.

Yogi


----------



## phat78boy

Mykroft said:


> Support for DirecTV was baked into Vista early on in the design in Vista. Essentially the same support they added for CableCard tuners was also intended to work with DirecTV.
> 
> While you could think of this tuner as a small version of an HR20/21, I don't think you can assume it just "uses" the computer's hard drive for storage. There's a complex process of decoding the source signal (HDPC-20), re-encoding the raw signal as MPEG2 (Windows) and applying DRM (Windows).
> 
> Based on my experience with OTA and CAbleCard tuners in VMC, this tuner is essentially just a tuner, it's job is to decode the proprietary DirecTV signal so it can be consumed by VMC. Once it does that, it'll all be in the hands of VMC as it works now.


Yes, support for DirecTV was built in. Not support for MRV to DirecTV boxes. My point was not to minimize what the HDPC20 will do, but only to show how it would be seen by the client MRV boxes. To me this would not only make a lot of sense but enable to DirecTV to sell client boxes, if you will, instead of telling everyone to get media center extenders


----------



## ToddD

ChrisL01 said:


> Sadly again, it still isn't right if you look at the most advanced TV capture. CableCARD content is not encoded at all, either is ATSC. I wouldn't expect D* to be re-encoded just because it is H.264.
> 
> The only time content is re-encoded is when it is captured using an analog tuner that has a hardware MPEG-2 encoder.
> 
> And my point is the opposite. If you were just talking about DRM, that's basically right. However, D* tuners can't be integrated using what is there in Vista now.
> 
> Chris


So If I understand you Chris, you think that the DirecTv stream will be kept in the H.264 format and wrapped with DRM and XML to create a DVR-MS?

This would require an update to just about every element of VMC and to extenders as there is not support for H.264 (as we all know by reading your posting about this several times)
It seems more likely that they would choose to re-encode as some format that MC ALREADY supports like MPEG2


----------



## Mykroft

ChrisL01 said:


> Sadly again, it still isn't right if you look at the most advanced TV capture. CableCARD content is not encoded at all, either is ATSC. I wouldn't expect D* to be re-encoded just because it is H.264.
> 
> Chris


If it's not encoded then it would be cake to rip off the wire. (In other words, Analog) If it's digital, it's encoded _somehow_.

I think what you're misunderstanding me saying "encoded" to mean that transcoding is going on, which is not what I mean. When I say a tuner is decoding the signal, I mean just that. Taking the wire format, which is digital and spitting that out in some format the PC can read, which is an MPEG2 stream, or whatever it is.


----------



## phat78boy

mjones73 said:


> It's going to integrate with MCE.


Ok, maybe I'm giving this device too much credit. I know it says Vista on the paperwork, but to me that is just a start. Lets say they offer this device as not only a tuner for MCE, but almost like a server for your house.

What I mean is you could set it up to record all the shows you want to a seperate eSata HDD that connects to the second USB port. That way your shows can be retreived without worrying about if you have MCE configured correctly or if your computer is in use or turned off.

Going through MCE for MRV to DirecTV boxes seems like asking a customer to do a lot of setup to me.


----------



## mjones73

phat78boy said:


> Yes, support for DirecTV was built in. Not support for MRV to DirecTV boxes. My point was not to minimize what the HDPC20 will do, but only to show how it would be seen by the client MRV boxes. To me this would not only make a lot of sense but enable to DirecTV to sell client boxes, if you will, instead of telling everyone to get media center extenders


I highly doubt it's going to have the ability to be directly networked for MRV use to Directv boxes, most likely it's only going to be a tuner for direct integration into MCE.

If you read the posted specs, the ethernet port isn't even listed, it's possible the picture is an early prototype and the finished product might not even have a port. It also states to use it you need to hook it up to a PC and fire up MCE to watch TV.

Speculation never hurts but I think you are giving it too much credit. We'll just have to wait and see what happens when dbstalk finally gets one in their hands to test.


----------



## CaMS

ToddD said:


> So If I understand you Chris, you think that the DirecTv stream will be kept in the H.264 format and wrapped with DRM and XML to create a DVR-MS?
> 
> This would require an update to just about every element of VMC and to extenders as there is not support for H.264 (as we all know by reading your posting about this several times)
> It seems more likely that they would choose to re-encode as some format that MC ALREADY supports like MPEG2


Yes that what it looks like, the stream will be untouched.. and Fiji is the update that will make this happen.. it will be a major update with alot of new things added


----------



## spartanstew

OK, so I just heard a commercial on the radio and had to ask this question:

Would using something like gotomypc* allow you to use this like a slingbox? Or does Vista prevent that?



*I've never used gotomypc, so don't know of its limitations.


----------



## aenea

Set it up how, using who's interface, outputing to what, using who's encryption, tagging with what metadata, and using what to control access?

I think it's unlikely in the exterme that this is going to write out unencrypted files to anything, and a disk full of encrypted recordings isn't going to do anyone any good without an ecosystem to decrypt and play them back. This is the PC tuner that was talked about by Bill years ago, for Vista's media center. Directv already has a standalone device that records programs whether or not your computer is in use or turned off, and is rumoured to be workin on mrv for it.



phat78boy said:


> Ok, maybe I'm giving this device too much credit. I know it says Vista on the paperwork, but to me that is just a start. Lets say they offer this device as not only a tuner for MCE, but almost like a server for your house.
> 
> What I mean is you could set it up to record all the shows you want to a seperate eSata HDD that connects to the second USB port. That way your shows can be retreived without worrying about if you have MCE configured correctly or if your computer is in use or turned off.
> 
> Going through MCE for MRV to DirecTV boxes seems like asking a customer to do a lot of setup to me.


----------



## phat78boy

spartanstew said:


> OK, so I just heard a commercial on the radio and had to ask this question:
> 
> Would using something like gotomypc* allow you to use this like a slingbox? Or does Vista prevent that?
> 
> *I've never used gotomypc, so don't know of its limitations.


Kind of. The refresh rate would make live video on your home machine look like changing pictures. Don't think it would be very effective. Now if you have a high speed connection and a VPN, you could remote your desktop and probably get a better result.


----------



## ToddD

CaMS said:


> Yes that what it looks like, the stream will be untouched.. and Fiji is the update that will make this happen.. it will be a major update with alot of new things added


here's something that might be interesting...Some poster on one of the many forums that I read said that a DirecTv person told him at the show that this will ship *this quarter*. (I'm looking for the post to provide a link) If so, no update to Fuji would re required as of course it's not yet available.


----------



## phat78boy

aenea said:


> Set it up how, using who's interface, outputing to what, using who's encryption, tagging with what metadata, and using what to control access?
> 
> I think it's unlikely in the exterme that this is going to write out unencrypted files to anything, and a disk full of encrypted recordings isn't going to do anyone any good without an ecosystem to decrypt and play them back. This is the PC tuner that was talked about by Bill years ago, for Vista's media center. Directv already has a standalone device that records programs whether or not your computer is in use or turned off, and is rumoured to be workin on mrv for it.


Using MCE you can setup the recordings and also view on your PC. My thought is for purely using this "standalone" once recordings are "on it". This could be done if storage was able to be added directly to the device.


----------



## sportsunit

You can instantly sign me up for two of these tuner boxes. This Directv Media Center integration will allow me to complete what I consider to be the perfect entertainment setup in my house. I just hope it's not the monumental failure that cablecard is in terms of having to get new pc's just to use it. The cable industry just doesn't get "it." Also, in-band guide data is absolutely necessary as well. The standard Media Center guide for Directv stinks.


----------



## Mykroft

ToddD said:


> here's something that might be interesting...Some poster on one of the many forums that I read said that a DirecTv person told him at the show that this will ship *this quarter*. (I'm looking for the post to provide a link) If so, no update to Fuji would re required as of course it's not yet available.


It's just part speculation and part my understanding of how VMC was designed, but I don't think Fiji will be required to make this tuner happen.

However, I could be wrong, and hopefully we'll find out more tomorrow as DirecTV is supposedly making an announcement about it.


----------



## Yogi76

phat78boy said:


> Kind of. The refresh rate would make live video on your home machine look like changing pictures. Don't think it would be very effective. Now if you have a high speed connection and a VPN, you could remote your desktop and probably get a better result.


The builtin Remote Desktop application doesn't allow you to view the video over the connection. While you could probably do it in theory using another remote application like VNC, it would probably be so slow as to be unusable. Media Center Extenders basically use Remote Desktop for the interface and then stream the data for the video separately (not sure of the exact details; Chris could probably explain better) and they are on a LAN connection.

Alternatively, there are applications that allow streaming, such as Orb or WebGuide. However, these applications use transcoding which won't be able to be done if the recordings are wrapped in restrictive DRM. Hopefully DirecTV sees all the limitations DRM imposes on legal fair use scenarios and doesn't require it.

Yogi


----------



## bakerfall

spartanstew said:


> OK, so I just heard a commercial on the radio and had to ask this question:
> 
> Would using something like gotomypc* allow you to use this like a slingbox? Or does Vista prevent that?
> 
> *I've never used gotomypc, so don't know of its limitations.


http://www.asciiexpress.com/webguide/


----------



## ToddD

Mykroft said:


> It's just part speculation and part my understanding of how VMC was designed, but I don't think Fiji will be required to make this tuner happen.
> 
> However, I could be wrong, and hopefully we'll find out more tomorrow as DirecTV is supposedly making an announcement about it.


Ok I found where I had seen the shipping this quarter...It's in Chris's blog from TGB

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/chris_blog/archive/2008/01/07/233530.aspx

read the comments at the bottom....and if this source is correct the press announcement from Microsoft will be today at 4:00PST


----------



## BudShark

My hope continues to be that this is a tuner, with no MPEG decoding. Basically that it is a full functioning dual-tuner solution, with a full functioning remote, and the ability to embed the giude data/stream into the output.

At that point you have an H2x dual tuner solution - with no video output. Just digital retransmission of the MPEG streams. For the current use they are wrapped in WMDRM for output - but here's hoping the output can be managed in the future in ways that would open up the compatbility.

Chris


----------



## bakerfall

phat78boy said:


> Ok, maybe I'm giving this device too much credit. I know it says Vista on the paperwork, but to me that is just a start. Lets say they offer this device as not only a tuner for MCE, but almost like a server for your house.
> 
> What I mean is you could set it up to record all the shows you want to a seperate eSata HDD that connects to the second USB port. That way your shows can be retreived without worrying about if you have MCE configured correctly or if your computer is in use or turned off.
> 
> Going through MCE for MRV to DirecTV boxes seems like asking a customer to do a lot of setup to me.


I think the point is that there likely will be no MRV between MCE and HR-2X. They are two totally different things.

This box is doing nothing except acting as a tuner. There are OTA tuners, cable tuners and this is a sat tuner. It has no brains, it has not guide, nothing. It can't record, it can't playback. It is simply a tuner. MCE is doing all the work in this equation (guide, recording, playback, channel changing).

If all you want is a box with eSata capabilities and MRV (soon), then the HR series is what you want. If you want to use MCE instead of the HR series, then you want the HDPC.


----------



## digitalfreak

Chop69 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> ChrisL01 is a moderator (owner?) of www.thegreenbutton.com, which is pretty much the DBSTalk of Windows Media Center.
> 
> You can view anything he says as Gospel; as much as anything Earl says over here.


At least when it comes to Media Center... 

Seriously, Chris knows what he's talking about, so I wouldn't argue with him on this stuff.


----------



## bakerfall

BudShark said:


> My hope continues to be that this is a tuner, with no MPEG decoding. Basically that it is a full functioning dual-tuner solution, with a full functioning remote, and the ability to embed the giude data/stream into the output.
> 
> At that point you have an H2x dual tuner solution - with no video output. Just digital retransmission of the MPEG streams. For the current use they are wrapped in WMDRM for output - but here's hoping the output can be managed in the future in ways that would open up the compatbility.
> 
> Chris


I believe that all MCE tuners do their own decoding, which is really what you want ( you don't want your PC doing all the work, that would suck up a lot of resources.) Guide data comes from the web, not from the tuner.

Functionally there is no reason to believe that this is going to do anything that existing OTA/cable tuners don't do, except work with D*.


----------



## BudShark

And thanks Chris for spreading some of TGB knowledge over here... there will be a lot of renewed interest in Media Center from this crowd when the device launches!

Chris


----------



## digitalfreak

ToddD said:


> Ok I found where I had seen the shipping this quarter...It's in Chris's blog from TGB
> 
> http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/chris_blog/archive/2008/01/07/233530.aspx
> 
> read the comments at the bottom....and if this source is correct the press announcement from Microsoft will be today at 4:00PST


*crosses fingers*


----------



## phat78boy

Yogi76 said:


> The builtin Remote Desktop application doesn't allow you to view the video over the connection. While you could probably do it in theory using another remote application like VNC, it would probably be so slow as to be unusable. Media Center Extenders basically use Remote Desktop for the interface and then stream the data for the video separately (not sure of the exact details; Chris could probably explain better) and they are on a LAN connection.
> 
> Alternatively, there are applications that allow streaming, such as Orb or WebGuide. However, these applications use transcoding which won't be able to be done if the recordings are wrapped in restrictive DRM. Hopefully DirecTV sees all the limitations DRM imposes on legal fair use scenarios and doesn't require it.
> 
> Yogi


If you use remote desktop and play a video file on that machine, it works just fine. Not sure what you mean.


----------



## bakerfall

RDP won't allow Media Center, it will allow video. MCE errors out.


----------



## dklippi

MIAMI1683 said:


> That's big news. I didn't realize sp1 was already downloadable I may try to load it tonight.


SP1 that is downloadable now also expires. Wait for the real deal unless you have a need to test unfinished software.


----------



## ulbonado

So for all those who miss the Tivo/DirecTV combination, is there any reason this couldn't provide a solution? I understand Tivo would have to come to some legal arrangement with DirecTV for access to technical specs &c, but it certainly sounds like an appropriate update to Tivo's software could even allow the existing Series 3 and Tivo HD boxes to support this device. They already have USB ports. Assuming the politics/legalisms work out.


----------



## ulbonado

Of course what would really be cool is if the specs were open and it could be made to work with Linux & MythTV, but I suppose the Rights Managers of the world aren't going to allow that to happen. Officially at least.


----------



## ShapeGSX

ulbonado said:


> So for all those who miss the Tivo/DirecTV combination, is there any reason this couldn't provide a solution? I understand Tivo would have to come to some legal arrangement with DirecTV for access to technical specs &c, but it certainly sounds like an appropriate update to Tivo's software could even allow the existing Series 3 and Tivo HD boxes to support this device. They already have USB ports. Assuming the politics/legalisms work out.


No, Tivos don't work with MPEG4, as far as I know.


----------



## ToddD

digitalfreak said:


> At least when it comes to Media Center...
> 
> Seriously, Chris knows what he's talking about, so I wouldn't argue with him on this stuff.


Yes except that like all of us ...Yes that includes me ....sometimes he's wrong.


----------



## Yogi76

phat78boy said:


> If you use remote desktop and play a video file on that machine, it works just fine. Not sure what you mean.


Windows Media Center works fine in Remote Desktop until you attempt to play video.

Yogi


----------



## dklippi

Yogi76 said:


> One of the good things about this is that the DVR-MS files produced by this will almost certainly be H.264 files, which will be quite a bit smaller than the current MPEG-2 files I'm recording from my HDHomerun. So, I'll actually be able to get a lot more TV on my 600GB drive dedicated for recording TV on my Vista Media Center box.
> 
> Yogi


Instead of single large drives, you might consider 3 drives in RAID 5. If you bang on this thing enough any single drive will eventually fail. RAID 5 will survive a single drive failure.


----------



## dklippi

phat78boy said:


> Kind of. The refresh rate would make live video on your home machine look like changing pictures. Don't think it would be very effective. Now if you have a high speed connection and a VPN, you could remote your desktop and probably get a better result.


No need for VPN, but you will need a static IP address. Just open up 3389/TCP on your firewall. Be sure the administrator account is either disabled or you have renamed it, though. There is hacker software out there that will bang a dictionary attack on your administrator account.


----------



## bakerfall

Yogi76 said:


> Windows Media Center works fine in Remote Desktop until you attempt to play video.
> 
> Yogi


That's pretty much my point, thanks for the screenshot.


----------



## Yogi76

dklippi said:


> Instead of single large drives, you might consider 3 drives in RAID 5. If you bang on this thing enough any single drive will eventually fail. RAID 5 will survive a single drive failure.


It's only my recorded TV, not my irreplaceable family photos or work documents. I can't justify the added cost of a RAID 5 array for recorded TV. My TV drive is actually two drives in RAID Concatenation, making it even more susceptible to failure since if one drive goes, I lose everything. But, there's always reruns. 

Yogi


----------



## Yogi76

bakerfall said:


> That's pretty much my point, thanks for the screenshot.


I think you got your "won't" and "will" backwards in your original post.  You probably meant to say:

"RDP will allow Media Center, it won't allow video. MCE errors out."

If we could just RDP in and do video fine, people wouldn't still be clamoring for the legendary "Softsled" software.

Yogi


----------



## jagowar

dklippi said:


> Instead of single large drives, you might consider 3 drives in RAID 5. If you bang on this thing enough any single drive will eventually fail. RAID 5 will survive a single drive failure.


i know its not ready yet but my ultimate hope is we get an esata or ethernet drobo for this kind of thing.... it would be awesome to be able to "upgrade" my raid array as needed.


----------



## ulbonado

ShapeGSX said:


> No, Tivos don't work with MPEG4, as far as I know.


There was a recent announcement that I saw somewhere that Motorola was introducing an MPEG4 cable box, and there was accompanying talk of cable companies switching to MPEG4 as DirecTV has done. It raised the obvious question of whether that would obsolete the current HD cable Tivos. Someone (I know, reliable source, eh? Sorry, I can't remember...) on tivocommunity.com I believe was saying that the current HD cable Tivos use a chip that actually supports MPEG4 already, they're just not currently enabling that feature (no need for it, so far). So a software update might theoretically deal with that issue as well.


----------



## ChrisL01

ToddD said:


> So If I understand you Chris, you think that the DirecTv stream will be kept in the H.264 format and wrapped with DRM and XML to create a DVR-MS?


That would basically be my guess. It would require that Stream Buffer Engine (SBE) be updated. This would keep the H.264 video, put it in a DVR-MS wrapper which would then allow copy protection and metadata.



ToddD said:


> This would require an update to just about every element of VMC and to extenders as there is not support for H.264 (as we all know by reading your posting about this several times)


All current v2 Extenders (Linksys, D-Link, HP) already support H.264. The main thing that doesn't is the Xbox 360 Extender which of course Microsoft controls.



ToddD said:


> It seems more likely that they would choose to re-encode as some format that MC ALREADY supports like MPEG2


The problem with this is the hardware requirements shoot up amazing (either software or hardware). The world is moving away from MPEG-2, and to MPEG-4 AVC. An update to SBE is also needed overseas where MPEG-2 is no longer the traditional broadcast format.



Mykroft said:


> If it's not encoded then it would be cake to rip off the wire. (In other words, Analog) If it's digital, it's encoded _somehow_.
> 
> I think what you're misunderstanding me saying "encoded" to mean that transcoding is going on, which is not what I mean. When I say a tuner is decoding the signal, I mean just that. Taking the wire format, which is digital and spitting that out in some format the PC can read, which is an MPEG2 stream, or whatever it is.


Your wording was "re-encoded", not encoded or decode. I see that you fixed that and now have a better idea. Re-encode means transcode, so that's a huge difference. 



Yogi76 said:


> The builtin Remote Desktop application doesn't allow you to view the video over the connection. While you could probably do it in theory using another remote application like VNC, it would probably be so slow as to be unusable. Media Center Extenders basically use Remote Desktop for the interface and then stream the data for the video separately (not sure of the exact details; Chris could probably explain better) and they are on a LAN connection.
> 
> Yogi


v1 Extenders (which don't work in Vista) basically did this. However the Xbox 360 and new v2 Extenders have a much richer UI. I don't know what protocols are used for everything now, but it is a bit more than RDP. Video has always been streamed over a separate protocol though (and still is).



bakerfall said:


> I believe that all MCE tuners do their own decoding, which is really what you want ( you don't want your PC doing all the work, that would suck up a lot of resources.) Guide data comes from the web, not from the tuner.


Decoding of video is done by the PC (generally with video card assist). The tuners don't do any decoding. If a Media Center Extender is used, decoding is done locally by either software or hardware in that device.

Also, the D* tuner is likely use in-band (sat) EPG data instead of the Internet delivered one from Zap2It.



ToddD said:


> Yes except that like all of us ...Yes that includes me ....sometimes he's wrong.


I'm by far not right all the time, but the main thing I'm trying to do here is give non-Media Center users a better idea of how things work now. The only things I'd take for sure out of this is what is listed in those scans.

Chris


----------



## bnash972

Jeremy W said:


> What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?


Could this be used as a network device and accessed from multiple PCs in the home?


----------



## BTDT

As a former DirecTV customer who moved to FiOS a couple of years back I will just post my intention to move back to D* when this becomes available. 

It looks like we are pretty sure that this thing will *not* require an OEM PC (the CableCard solution doesn't need to do their either to do DRM, but it does). In that case I may move forward with building my own VMC and get started with OTA and S-Video transferred cable recordings for now, and then upgrade to the D* solution later. A two phase process would make it an easier transition in terms of WAF....

Very exciting! I joined this forum as soon as I saw this come up on TGB.


----------



## mjones73

bnash972 said:


> Could this be used as a network device and accessed from multiple PCs in the home?


Been discussed already in the thread, most likely no.


----------



## Yogi76

mjones73 said:


> Been discussed already in the thread, most likely no.


I wouldn't jump to that conclusion so quickly. Remember, the original test versions of the OCUR had network tuner access (http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2662&p=2). In fact, the final ATI Digital Cable Tuners show up as network devices, even when connected using USB, I'm pretty sure (can someone with CableCard MCE setup confirm this?) Unless DirecTV removes the Ethernet port, my bet is that is exactly what it will be used for.

Yogi


----------



## dloftis

Anybody else find it odd that the photos show BNC connectors rather than F?


----------



## rherrmann

Look like F-connectors to me.

RIck


----------



## greynolds

ChrisL01 said:


> Decoding of video is done by the PC (generally with video card assist). The tuners don't do any decoding. If a Media Center Extender is used, decoding is done locally by either software or hardware in that device.


I was thinking that he meant that ~encoding~ is done by the tuner (for recording analog content) - and unless I'm mistaken WMC only supports analog tuners that have hardware encoding (wasn't there was an exception to this for the ATI HDTV Wonder?). In the case of digital content (HD OTA, Digital Cable, DTV, etc.), no encoding is needed (obviously).


----------



## VeniceDre

This would work great for me since I spend so much time on my computer in my home office. Plus the fact that I've got two more tuner feeds available on my SWM-5 that feeds this side of my house the FTM will come in handy. Can't wait to get my hands on one.


----------



## sorahl

DustoMan said:


> My guess is only one, but can you imagine having two or three of these on one PC? That's 4-6 video streams! LOL! :eek2:


How many people out there besides myself have a home network tha tcould handled 6 streams without any network degredation??
I don't care but I'd be interested to see the bandwidth needed if you have multiple streams running, specially for those poor souls on wireless.

John


----------



## sorahl

ChrisL01 said:


> There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.
> 
> A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.
> 
> Chris Lanier


Glad someone else understands this too.
I did someone make a comment earlier that they wanted to hook it up to a WHS. I don't know that this will work. It certainly could if they wanted it to, and it would save me a LOT of additional cabling. I'd love to put this with my planned WHS machine in my closet where my satellite wires are split out from.

john


----------



## phat78boy

dklippi said:


> No need for VPN, but you will need a static IP address. Just open up 3389/TCP on your firewall. Be sure the administrator account is either disabled or you have renamed it, though. There is hacker software out there that will bang a dictionary attack on your administrator account.


Why I suggested VPN.


----------



## ToddD

ChrisL01 said:


> That would basically be my guess. It would require that Stream Buffer Engine (SBE) be updated. This would keep the H.264 video, put it in a DVR-MS wrapper which would then allow copy protection and metadata.


Except if you'll take a minute to look at how DirecTv builds their receivers, you'll see that the output from the ASIC they use is a MPEG2 TS stream not Mpeg4



> The problem with this is the hardware requirements shoot up amazing (either software or hardware). The world is moving away from MPEG-2, and to MPEG-4 AVC. An update to SBE is also needed overseas where MPEG-2 is no longer the traditional broadcast format.


I strongly disagree that the world is moving away from MPEG2....seen much talk about ATSC or what we here call OTA of late- it's MPEG2 by law. Media Center is doing MPEG2 HD just fine right now thank you -on todays hardware. As to the topic we are discussing here....As I noted above the output from DirecTV's ASIC of choice IS MPEG2

There just is no reason to have to reinvent the wheel here....MC supports MPEG2 HD today (ATSC and CABLECARD), so do extenders, so does the silicon that DirecTv uses to build receivers.


----------



## phat78boy

Yogi76 said:


> Windows Media Center works fine in Remote Desktop until you attempt to play video.
> 
> Yogi


You are correct. Sorry. I use Dameware to remote my machines using RDP security and figured it would be the same. I know they remote using different drivers and didn't realize Microsoft had turned off that feature when using their remote client.


----------



## BudShark

sorahl said:


> How many people out there besides myself have a home network tha tcould handled 6 streams without any network degredation??
> I don't care but I'd be interested to see the bandwidth needed if you have multiple streams running, specially for those poor souls on wireless.
> 
> John


You mean to tell me Joe User doesn't have a gig switch with the PC hardwired, Cat6 cabled to each RG6 location, and a wireless segment? :lol:

Chris


----------



## ToddD

sorahl said:


> How many people out there besides myself have a home network tha tcould handled 6 streams without any network degredation??
> I don't care but I'd be interested to see the bandwidth needed if you have multiple streams running, specially for those poor souls on wireless.
> 
> John


You know that is not as hard as you might think.....If we took the MPEG2 stream of 4 Full HD TV stations they would all fit in less than 100Mb's
As Wireless N can do up to 300Mb's and Gigabit might have a thruput of around 400Mb's....it not too hard any more or too expensive.


----------



## ChrisL01

ToddD said:


> Except if you'll take a minute to look at how DirecTv builds their receivers, you'll see that the output from the ASIC they use is a MPEG2 TS stream not Mpeg4


I'm just saying how I would do it. This isn't a D* STB.



ToddD said:


> I strongly disagree that the world is moving away from MPEG2....seen much talk about ATSC or what we here call OTA of late- it's MPEG2 by law. Media Center is doing MPEG2 HD just fine right now thank you -on todays hardware. As to the topic we are discussing here....As I noted above the output from DirecTV's ASIC of choice IS MPEG2


MPEG-2 by regulation (no law)...in the US. As I said overseas in the UK and other places MPEG-4 is where it is at.

The MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 comment was about transcoding. Feel free to try on-the-fly software encoding from 1080i MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 on your PC and then tell me your hardware does it just fine. 

Chris


----------



## phat78boy

ToddD said:


> You know that is not as hard as you might think.....If we took the MPEG2 stream of 4 Full HD TV stations they would all fit in less than 100Mb's
> As Wireless N can do up to 300Mb's and Gigabit might have a thruput of around 400Mb's....it not too hard any more or too expensive.


If the network is doing only that. Add in music streaming and the music downloading the kids are doing and people will start complaining as they have no idea whats going on.


----------



## CCDMan

Yeah Right. And does anyone remember the DirecTV Home Media Center from CES 2005? D* made a big splash about that and all the great things it would do and that it would be out by the end of the year.

Never heard about it again.

Would be nice but I will wait and see if this is another example of hype with no real content.


----------



## jeffbarnett513

Another guy here that is stoked his media center dream setup is coming to fruition.

Re: network bandwidth for multiple tuners. Nick at the Silicon Dust Forums (HD Homerun manufacturer) says that a 1080i stream consumes about 16 Mbps. FYI


----------



## ToddD

ChrisL01 said:


> I'm just saying how I would do it. *This isn't a D* STB*.


Yes it is....



> MPEG-2 by regulation (no law)...in the US. As I said overseas in the UK and other places MPEG-4 is where it is at


. 
In the us FCC regs have the force of law



> The MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 comment was about transcoding. Feel free to try on-the-fly software encoding from 1080i MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 on your PC and then tell me your hardware does it just fine.


OK, I'm done with this ....you have stated your opinion and I have stated mine...One of us will be right and one of us will be wrong...so be it. No point in continuing to take everyone time on hearing our opinions...the answer will be clear at some point and it will be what it will be.


----------



## ChrisL01

This isn't a race Todd. There is no need for a winner and a loser and there is no need to argue or get upset. I'm sorry that's happened.

Chris


----------



## smiddy

I will have one of these on my HTPC...soon! I really can't wait. Seriously this is really good stuff right here.


----------



## digitalfreak

sorahl said:


> How many people out there besides myself have a home network tha tcould handled 6 streams without any network degredation??
> I don't care but I'd be interested to see the bandwidth needed if you have multiple streams running, specially for those poor souls on wireless.
> 
> John


*raises hand*


----------



## openhelix

bakerfall said:


> RDP won't allow Media Center, it will allow video. MCE errors out.


Hmm I just tried it and it worked fine. The only caveat is you have to RDP to the Vista box with the console option.


----------



## phat78boy

openhelix said:


> Hmm I just tried it and it worked fine. The only caveat is you have to RDP to the Vista box with the console option.


Thanks for the feedback. I was going to try when I got home but thought I had used RDP before.


----------



## P Smith

ToddD said:


> Except if you'll take a minute to look at how DirecTv builds their receivers, you'll see that the output from the ASIC they use is a MPEG2 TS stream not Mpeg4.
> <...>


Todd, you're half right - newest D* receiver/DVRs have both types video compression in TS depending of SCID - most of all from 103W sat are MPEG-4[H.264].


----------



## openhelix

phat78boy said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I was going to try when I got home but thought I had used RDP before.


FWIW, I was using the 6.1 TS client (Vista client) not the older XP RDP/TS client. Not sure if that makes a difference with the enhanced RDP security.


----------



## mva5580

I'd like to see Microsoft comment on this device as well at the CES, you'd think they would have something to say about it considering it will obviously work hand in hand with Media Center.

Release date and price.......Need information.......Please...........


----------



## digitalfreak

mva5580 said:


> I'd like to see Microsoft comment on this device as well at the CES, you'd think they would have something to say about it considering it will obviously work hand in hand with Media Center.
> 
> Release date and price.......Need information.......Please...........


Supposedly a press conference at 4pm PT today. May be some of the info you're looking for there.


----------



## mva5580

digitalfreak said:


> Supposedly a press conference at 4pm PT today. May be some of the info you're looking for there.


Oh lord. Someone use the Jedi Mind Trick and force the information out of them. Thanks for the info


----------



## phat78boy

openhelix said:


> FWIW, I was using the 6.1 TS client (Vista client) not the older XP RDP/TS client. Not sure if that makes a difference with the enhanced RDP security.


Thats what I use also. I only have one XP machine left around the house. Also, the other poster looked to be using MCE 2005. I have been using Vista MCE.


----------



## ToddD

P Smith said:


> Todd, you're half right - newest D* receiver/DVRs have both types video compression in TS depending of SCID - most of all from 103W sat are MPEG-4[H.264].


I wasn't taking about what comes off the Sat..I was talking about deep within the silicon. See Here: http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/4501-PB01-R.pdf

Quote: "The final error-corrected output is delivered in MPEG-2 transport format"


----------



## mva5580

At this point, the main thing I want to hear is absolute confirmation from MS/D* that this product will NOT be for OEM PC's only. 

Yes, from the looks of it, it certainly appears that it will be available to everyone. But I need some concrete, definite confirmation from the companies themselves.


----------



## Yogi76

openhelix said:


> FWIW, I was using the 6.1 TS client (Vista client) not the older XP RDP/TS client. Not sure if that makes a difference with the enhanced RDP security.


I just tried it again, using the /console switch, but I still got the same error. Windows Vista on both sides. Were you actually able to get video to play, or just launch Media Center?

Yogi


----------



## Pinion413

That looks absolutely delicious. Thanks for the images and info Earl.

I _will_ own one of those.


----------



## Shunopoli

what happened to the press conferences


----------



## mcdubjr

Shunopoli said:


> what happened to the press conferences


Not 4:00 in Vegas yet.


----------



## Shunopoli

mcdubjr said:


> Not 4:00 in Vegas yet.


dang still forget there 2 hours back Im a dope I hate Time zones

I wish i could listen to it

The reason I asked this is thought it said 4 est


----------



## smart9

ToddD said:


> I wasn't taking about what comes off the Sat..I was talking about deep within the silicon. See Here:
> 
> Quote: "The final error-corrected output is delivered in MPEG-2 transport format"


MPEG-2 *transport* format, defined as part of MPEG-2.
It's not a video format. It's just a container designed for potentially lossy media. The MPEG transport stream is used by a variety of systems - specifically, just about every broadcast/satellite TV service. It is possible for a MPEG-2 transport stream to contain video encoded in something other than MPEG-2 video.

MPEG-1, MPEG-2, and MPEG-4 are actually groups of standards, although they normally refer to the video compression formats. MPEG-4 itself has two parts that define video compression formats - MPEG-4 Part 2 (commonly referred to as MPEG-4 or DivX on the internet) or MPEG-4 Part 10 (commonly referred to as H264).

I believe Blu-ray and AVCHD (camcorder format) also use MPEG transport streams with the file extension m2ts.


----------



## SHS

I really hope DirecTV is willing to work other smaller vendors such as SageTV and not just Microsoft MCE carp.
But I hear Sage at Echostar booth so I wonder what Sage is up to, perhaps a partnership with Echostar from what I hear there's a demo with an Echostar set-top box streaming live HD TV to a Pioneer Blu-ray player running SageTV software.


----------



## looter

Mac support would be good. I do have XP Pro via Fusion but I REALLY don't want to install Vista on my MacBook Pro.


----------



## tharron

Steve said:


> I'm not getting how this wouldn't require a computer at each TV, or even provide a whole-house solution. Enlighten me, please?  /steve


Many devices, such as the HR2x-xxx, PS3, XBox 360, 'Media Extenders', support playback of PC hosted media such as Videos and Music, on a TV screen. People are advocating the possible use of those systems, getting video streams over the network, instead of an actual receiver on each TV set.


----------



## LarryFlowers

My Dream Come True....

HDPC-20 = Geekgasm


----------



## P Smith

That's what we messing up a little. 
I would say that stream after BCM4501 is decrypted TS with a few SCIDs contain video/audio compresed frames ( could be MPEG-2, H.264, MP3, AC-3, etc ).



smart9 said:


> MPEG-2 *transport* format, defined as part of MPEG-2.
> It's not a video format. It's just a container designed for potentially lossy media. The MPEG transport stream is used by a variety of systems - specifically, just about every broadcast/satellite TV service. It is possible for a MPEG-2 transport stream to contain video encoded in something other than MPEG-2 video.
> 
> MPEG-1, MPEG-2, and MPEG-4 are actually groups of standards, although they normally refer to the video compression formats. MPEG-4 itself has two parts that define video compression formats - MPEG-4 Part 2 (commonly referred to as MPEG-4 or DivX on the internet) or MPEG-4 Part 10 (commonly referred to as H264).
> 
> I believe Blu-ray and AVCHD (camcorder format) also use MPEG transport streams with the file extension m2ts.


----------



## Shunopoli

is the press conference going on


----------



## digitalfreak

Shunopoli said:


> is the press conference going on


Dunno. Will probably need to wait for whomever is reporting on it to get back to their PC. I suspect ChrisL will have some news, if there is any.


----------



## Shunopoli

hopefully soon
Im impatient hehe j/k


----------



## tharron

*pout* Dont see any sort of announcements.


----------



## BudShark

Well Doug/Earl have both recently mentioned going offline to travel home - so I suspect our best source of info in the next 3-4 hours will be from somewhere other than this site... just a pure guess though.

Chris


----------



## digitalfreak

BudShark said:


> Well Doug/Earl have both recently mentioned going offline to travel home - so I suspect our best source of info in the next 3-4 hours will be from somewhere other than this site... just a pure guess though.
> 
> Chris


No mention of anything on TGB or Engadget, so I'm gonna call shens.


----------



## tharron

digitalfreak said:


> No mention of anything on TGB or Engadget, so I'm gonna call shens.


That's what I meant by no announcements. Don't see anything slated for release from Microsoft at all.


----------



## ChrisL01

Nothing from Microsoft, so it appears for now no official announcement.

Chris


----------



## bakerfall

ChrisL01 said:


> Nothing from Microsoft, so it appears for now no official announcement.
> 
> Chris


Well, not from microsoft at least. I'd say the stuff from D* is official.


----------



## jeonunh

I knew it was too good to be true. At least I didn't get my hopes up too high. Although I did sit here for the last hour hitting refresh on several websites hoping..


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

So was there an MS press conference scheduled for 4pm that got cancelled? If so, surely someone has some rumors as to why it was killed.

Or was there an MS press conference with no mention of this device?

Was this supposed to be a Media center press conference, or just something generic from Microsoft?


----------



## bakerfall

jeonunh said:


> I knew it was too good to be true. At least I didn't get my hopes up too high. Although I did sit here for the last hour hitting refresh on several websites hoping..


Come on people, there is a huge difference between a rumored press conference not happening, and this not happening.

There is an official release from DirecTV detailing the product which has been discussed for years. It's real. We just don't know when it's coming out, or how much it will cost.


----------



## Shunopoli

I thought it was Directtv press conference


----------



## jeonunh

bakerfall said:


> Come on people, there is a huge difference between a rumored press conference not happening, and this not happening.
> 
> There is an official release from DirecTV detailing the product which has been discussed for years. It's real. We just don't know when it's coming out, or how much it will cost.


I'm sorry, should have been more clear. I was just referring to the announcement that is was coming out 1st quarter 2008 that was made on TGB. I totally agree that the product is coming out, but who knows when....


----------



## openhelix

Yogi76 said:


> I just tried it again, using the /console switch, but I still got the same error. Windows Vista on both sides. Were you actually able to get video to play, or just launch Media Center?
> 
> Yogi


I played a music video... weird. I'll try it again when I get home tonight.


----------



## DEF

If D* installs one Hdpc20 per sub and the sub uses a networked pc or xbox for each tv the savings in hardware alone for D* could be in the nine figure range. Would this be possible? An HR2x costs several hundred dollars. Money talks.


----------



## nc88keyz

Do we have a poll yet of how much you are willing to pay directv for the new wonderbread box?

Perhaps we should not. Directv might get funny ideas. 

I think 149.99 per box is fair. with a $10 credit for 12 months

Oh and this gives me ammo to get a secondary 360 

Bluray - Who?

....hey guys lets go get a bluray from blockbuster tonight.....What a 'happy' name for a media format. 

HD-DVD just rolls off a lot more naturally.

Congrats to Sony - You won your first format war.

Are you happy now???

You probally wont even toss a $100 rebate for HD-dvd victims. Definately a sonylike executive decision. Screw em..They will buy it anyways.

Dont get me wrong I dont have anything against sony with exception to the business practices and politics. I happen to own a very nice Sony ES line receiver and my first PC was a vaio as well. XBRs have been present in our house before too. Its just a little much to the tune of 500million. Bill gates should have countered. 



Sony had to fork 500mil to save their fanbois dream for Ps3 world domination.


----------



## bakerfall

DEF said:


> If D* installs one Hdpc20 per sub and the sub uses a networked pc or xbox for each tv the savings in hardware alone for D* could be in the nine figure range. Would this be possible? An HR2x costs several hundred dollars. Money talks.


Yes, it's possible, provided you have adequate hardware.

They may take a slight mirroring (excuse me, lease) fee hit, but that would probably be more than made up for by the added revenue of the people who get D* because of this box.

I wouldn't be surprised if they got a little $$ from Microsoft too.


----------



## nc88keyz

Directv is definately getting positive marks from me as a company that is beginning to listen to the consumer as to what we want/need. 

Kudos. It took them a very long time, but like many have mentioned the light is definately coming from the end of the tunnel. 

HTPCs are amazing, and very versatile. What a perfect compliment to vista nd VMC

Heres to my bill dropping 30 bucks for mirroring fees with 3 HR20s, 2 HR10-250s, HR20, and SDtivo

Ive been waiting for this. Do not dissapoint me Directv


----------



## digitalfreak

nc88keyz said:


> Bluray - Who?
> 
> ....hey guys lets go get a bluray from blockbuster tonight.....What a 'happy' name for a media format.
> 
> HD-DVD just rolls off a lot more naturally.
> 
> Congrats to Sony - You won your first format war.
> 
> Are you happy now???
> 
> You probally wont even toss a $100 rebate for HD-dvd victims. Definately a sonylike executive decision. Screw em..They will buy it anyways.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I dont have anything against sony with exception to the business practices and politics. I happen to own a very nice Sony ES line receiver and my first PC was a vaio as well. XBRs have been present in our house before too. Its just a little much to the tune of 500million. Bill gates should have countered.
> 
> Sony had to fork 500mil to save their fanbois dream for Ps3 world domination.


Um, what does that have to do with the HDPC20, or DirecTV for that matter? If you want to rant about Blu-ray, do it somewhere else. :nono2: Like here - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=152


----------



## nc88keyz

sorry 360 led me to ps3 fandom...then ...welll 

/rant off


----------



## Bly

DEF said:


> If D* installs one Hdpc20 per sub and the sub uses a networked pc or xbox for each tv the savings in hardware alone for D* could be in the nine figure range. Would this be possible? An HR2x costs several hundred dollars. Money talks.


Problem with this is you still only have 2 tuners to record. If three different people want to watch 3 different shows all on at the same time, no go.

The other item to keep in mind, Vista is laden with DRM and security features to cripple HD output on anything but a single HDMI video card located on the PC doing the decrypting.

Maybe someone will create a crack, maybe they won't. A program like Any DVD HD for a sat stream will be needed...

They wouldn't be requiring Vista unless they were going to use the DRM features.... I'd say 100% count on it but then I'd have to admit I've already seen one of these items in action....


----------



## Tom Robertson

I don't see an MS event a CES ievent listed for this afternoon. So, I don't know.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tybio

Bly said:


> Problem with this is you still only have 2 tuners to record. If three different people want to watch 3 different shows all on at the same time, no go.
> 
> The other item to keep in mind, Vista is laden with DRM and security features to cripple HD output on anything but a single HDMI video card located on the PC doing the decrypting.
> 
> Maybe someone will create a crack, maybe they won't. A program like Any DVD HD for a sat stream will be needed...
> 
> They wouldn't be requiring Vista unless they were going to use the DRM features.... I'd say 100% count on it but then I'd have to admit I've already seen one of these items in action....


I'll put up with the DRM if it is not too stupid, obviously we will be able to stream it to extenders...but if they do the "Delete after 30 days" thing, or some of the other stupid content flags I'll be depressed. If they are reasonable, and let us store the DRMed files..even if they can only play back via a PC with the USB Tuner connected to it (or a child extender of that PC) then I'll be content...not happy, but content.


----------



## DEF

HP is selling networked tv's. Sorry, can't post a link yet.


----------



## Juppers

I wonder if these are going to be lease units like every other receiver.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Several manufacturers are talking about DLNA enabled TVs, from what I've heard, tho I don't have any names yet.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

Bly said:


> The other item to keep in mind, Vista is laden with DRM and security features to cripple HD output on anything but a single HDMI video card located on the PC doing the decrypting.


Can you provide more info on this please?



> They wouldn't be requiring Vista unless they were going to use the DRM features.... I'd say 100% count on it but then I'd have to admit I've already seen one of these items in action....


So you've seen this HDPC20 in action, or you've seen Vista DRM features in action?

As many folks have posted here, it seems logical that a solution would be Vista only. They don't want to spend the time working on new stuff for the previous OS, so they make it only for the latest OS.


----------



## ShinKen

is there any word if this is swm ready?


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

ShinKen said:


> is there any word if this is swm ready?


Isn't FTM the old name for the SWM? The pic of the back of the box says that input 1 is for the FTM.

Edit: And I think that it's pretty safe to assume that every tuner that comes out in 2008 will be SWM-compatible.


----------



## carl6

Yes, FTM is the original designation for SWM. I agree, any new boxes would be expected to be SWM compatible.

Carl


----------



## Jeremy W

Bly said:


> The other item to keep in mind, Vista is laden with DRM and security features to cripple HD output on anything but a single HDMI video card located on the PC doing the decrypting.


You are talking out of your behind. This feature is available, yes, but it only gets activated if the content provider chooses to use it. And to date, no content provider has. The same exact feature is present on all DirecTV HD receivers, and HD optical players as well. It's not unique to Vista, and it's certainly not on by default.


----------



## Groundhog45

Wow, I've been waiting for this box for quite a while now. I'm glad it's finally on the horizon. Good thing I put together a Vista Ultimate MC PC last year. Thanks to all of the Vista, Green Button, and XBox people for all of the info posted in this thread.  Looking forward to ordering one.


----------



## openhelix

Hmmm, it's telling they don't have a working model at either the MS booth or the D* booth. Tells it's likely a long way off. Both companies would have taken CES to make a big splash if there was anything available.


----------



## openhelix

Probably nothing too new, but I posted some info on my blog as well:
http://www.networkworld.com/community/lewis
Should be the top thread, click "read more".

though not nearly as active, I have access to the same resources ChrisL does, and maybe a few others (TAP and validation partner status and in redmond about once a month). I have a meeting with some MS folks thursday. I'll update info there if there's anything I can post.


----------



## jelockwood

bakerfall said:


> ToddD said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's like the OCUR's for CableCard, The incoming stream is demodulated, decrypted and the mpeg stream is extracted within the turner and the resulting stream is then re compressed in Windows Media format with Windows Media DRM.
> 
> This stream is sent to the Media Center Turner app and a encrypted dvr-ms file is spooled to the file system.
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is this is exactly what would happen.
Click to expand...

The HDPC20 appears basically to be a USB connected DVB-S (and DVB-S2) tuner. These (along with PCI and FireWire equivalents) are far more common in Europe (where I am located) so I hope I am going to correct what seems to be a misconception.

The DVB-S (or DVB-S2) tuner, tunes in to the particular stream for the particular channel desired. It then if necessary, i.e. the channel is a pay channel and therefore encrypted (and the DVB-S/S2 device is capable) uses a CAM (Conditional Access Module) with a viewing card to decrypt that stream and then feeds that stream to its output (in this case the USB connection to the computer). In this scenario it does not decompress the video but leaves it in the MPEG2 or H.264 compressed format. The PC can then record it (still compressed) to hard disk, potentially the PC can also stream it (still compressed) across the network. Only when a device is actually going to play it to a TV or monitor will it finally be decompressed.

This approach saves on bandwidth sending the file to the computer and saves on disk space, and also means no processing power is wasted uncessarily uncompressing and then recompressing the stream.

Note: Many people in Europe already do DVB-S in Media Center for both encrypted subscription TV and free to air. No-one (yet) does DVB-S2 with H.264 in Vista Media Center because it does not yet support H.264 for TV.

The current DVB-S (and MPEG2 only) solutions result in a DVR-MS file containing the unmodified (but decrypted) MPEG2 stream without any DRM being added.

Note: Due to Microsoft having failed themselves to deliver a DVB-S solution for years, these solutions have been developed without their help and currently as a result are not burdened by Microsoft DRM.

I would envisage that with the HDPC20 the following will happen.

1. The HDPC20 tunes in to the stream for the channel desired
2. It decrypts it using a built-in CAM and a standard viewing card (probably hidden behind what appears to be a flap at the bottom on the front of the unit)
3. It does not decompress the stream but sends it still in MPEG2 or H.264 format to the computer
4. Vista Media Center also does not decompress the stream but wraps it in the usual DVR-MS wrapper
5. Since this is Microsoft, it will almost certainly add DRM to the resulting DVR-MS file. This means it will probably not be possible to burn recordings to DVD or BluRay.

If one thinks about it, if the HDPC20 did decompress the video before sending it to the PC then firstly it would require a possibly expensive H.264 chip and more importantly two uncompressed High Definition streams would use a significant amount of the USB bandwidth. Even worse, the PC would have to _in real time_ recompress at least two high definition streams imposing a huge processing burden.

Note: Sky in the UK and Europe is part of the same Murdoch empire as DirectTV. A 'real' Sky DVR box records the streams from its two tuners to its internal hard disk in the streams compressed format. In fact it does not bother decrypting the video until playback (but still uses a CAM and viewing card). Us Europeans are hoping that Sky will be as enlightened as DirectTV and offer the equivalent of the HDPC20 in Europe. DirectTV and Sky uses the same NDS (aka. Videoguard) encryption system.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jelockwood said:


> The HDPC20 appears basically to be a USB connected DVB-S (and DVB-S2) tuner. These (along with PCI and FireWire equivalents) are far more common in Europe (where I am located) so I hope I am going to correct what seems to be a misconception.
> 
> The DVB-S (or DVB-S2) tuner, tunes in to the particular stream for the particular channel desired. It then if necessary, i.e. the channel is a pay channel and therefore encrypted (and the DVB-S/S2 device is capable) uses a CAM (Conditional Access Module) with a viewing card to decrypt that stream and then feeds that stream to its output (in this case the USB connection to the computer). In this scenario it does not decompress the video but leaves it in the MPEG2 or H.264 compressed format. The PC can then record it (still compressed) to hard disk, potentially the PC can also stream it (still compressed) across the network. Only when a device is actually going to play it to a TV or monitor will it finally be decompressed.
> 
> This approach saves on bandwidth sending the file to the computer and saves on disk space, and also means no processing power is wasted uncessarily uncompressing and then recompressing the stream.
> 
> Note: Many people in Europe already do DVB-S in Media Center for both encrypted subscription TV and free to air. No-one (yet) does DVB-S2 with H.264 in Vista Media Center because it does not yet support H.264 for TV.
> 
> The current DVB-S (and MPEG2 only) solutions result in a DVR-MS file containing the unmodified (but decrypted) MPEG2 stream without any DRM being added.
> 
> Note: Due to Microsoft having failed themselves to deliver a DVB-S solution for years, these solutions have been developed without their help and currently as a result are not burdened by Microsoft DRM.
> 
> I would envisage that with the HDPC20 the following will happen.
> 
> 1. The HDPC20 tunes in to the stream for the channel desired
> 2. It decrypts it using a built-in CAM and a standard viewing card (probably hidden behind what appears to be a flap at the bottom on the front of the unit)
> 3. It does not decompress the stream but sends it still in MPEG2 or H.264 format to the computer
> 4. Vista Media Center also does not decompress the stream but wraps it in the usual DVR-MS wrapper
> 5. Since this is Microsoft, it will almost certainly add DRM to the resulting DVR-MS file. This means it will probably not be possible to burn recordings to DVD or BluRay.
> 
> If one thinks about it, if the HDPC20 did decompress the video before sending it to the PC then firstly it would require a possibly expensive H.264 chip and more importantly two uncompressed High Definition streams would use a significant amount of the USB bandwidth. Even worse, the PC would have to _in real time_ recompress at least two high definition streams imposing a huge processing burden.
> 
> Note: Sky in the UK and Europe is part of the same Murdoch empire as DirectTV. A 'real' Sky DVR box records the streams from its two tuners to its internal hard disk in the streams compressed format. In fact it does not bother decrypting the video until playback (but still uses a CAM and viewing card). Us Europeans are hoping that Sky will be as enlightened as DirectTV and offer the equivalent of the HDPC20 in Europe. DirectTV and Sky uses the same NDS (aka. Videoguard) encryption system.


:welcome_s Welcom to the forum.

I seem to remember in another thread it was said that this was a software solution and not really hardware.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1374881&postcount=159

It would seem this unit is a pass-through to the PC and the real manipulation of the data is processed on the PC.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Mike


----------



## lguvenoz

Just a couple of thing from my knowledge in this area...

1. I would expect that DirecTV is definitely not uncompressing the stream in the unit. This would keep cost down, and make it a lot more attractive to people.
2. XP will never be supported. One of the likely holdups to DirecTV releasing this piece of hardware has been the slow release of the full suite of DRM capabilities offered in Vista. MS is not going to retrofit these features to XP.
3. Whoever said Vista can only display HD content on an attached display must not have used it before. I have been playing with this exact capability for several months now, and it works perfectly. Admittedly I have only been able to play with OTA recordings, but Vista most definitely can stream HD content to extenders. It is important to note however that they must be "NEW" units like the XBox360 or the extender itself does not support the display of HD content.


----------



## jfulcher

Earl Bonovich said:


> The official information about the HDPC-20
> 
> *Product Brochure*
> Front
> Back


Sign me up to beta test this thing!  I already have an HTPC and do CE stuff for my HR20!


----------



## jfulcher

tony4d said:


> Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.
> 
> Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.


I bet it is out. For DRM reasons - just like the cable card for MCE.


----------



## SHS

> I would envisage that with the HDPC20 the following will happen.
> 
> 1. The HDPC20 tunes in to the stream for the channel desired
> 2. It decrypts it using a built-in CAM and a standard viewing card (probably hidden behind what appears to be a flap at the bottom on the front of the unit)
> 3. It does not decompress the stream but sends it still in MPEG2 or H.264 format to the computer
> 4. Vista Media Center also does not decompress the stream but wraps it in the usual DVR-MS wrapper
> 5. Since this is Microsoft, it will almost certainly add DRM to the resulting DVR-MS file. This means it will probably not be possible to burn recordings to DVD or BluRay.


I agree with on number 5 that must likly what will happing so who know in tell it ready and we all find out for sure, I hate number 4 which is why MS can f-off with there MCE which is nothing more then pettey face but real b-i-t-c-h on under hood hehe.



> If one thinks about it, if the HDPC20 did decompress the video before sending it to the PC then firstly it would require a possibly expensive H.264 chip and more importantly two uncompressed High Definition streams would use a significant amount of the USB bandwidth. Even worse, the PC would have to _in real time_ recompress at least two high definition streams imposing a huge processing burden.


That possable with a REALtime Hardware Transcoder
The REAL problem is today Video card which do not have REALtime Hardware Decoder, try just watching a H.264 in 1080i


----------



## dvrblogger

Jeremy W said:


> I could see it possibly being used for IP callback. It could certainly be possible that DirecTV doesn't want that data traversing through a computer on it's way out. But VOD downloads should definitely be done directly through the computer, since they're stored on the computer.


VOD downloads would need to flow via HDPC20 to decrypt them unless DIRECTV hosted all the content in an additonal Windows DRM format for the PC community.


----------



## jfulcher

Earl Bonovich said:


> And the problem is?
> 
> You can turn off or by pass all of those questions, if you want to disable those features.
> I don't want to turn this into an OS battle thread.
> 
> But now having used Vista for the last 9 months or so... it is getting a very unfair "rap" out there.


I agree - people just like to moan and groan because of some of the security stuff for media content.

It's a great OS.


----------



## jfulcher

greynolds said:


> A few observations:
> 
> 1) This is AWESOME news.
> 
> 2) I would have thought they could have put it into a smaller box - 7" tall is a bit much. I'll find a way to make it fit though .
> 
> 3) I really hope that 2 (or more) of these will work together on the same PC. I currently have a BeyondTV system that uses 6 HD OTA tuners - it's rare that more than 2 are going at the same time, but it does happen. It would be great to have 2 HDPC20's (4 Sat tuners) along with 4 HD OTA tuners all connected to the same box.
> 
> 4) I'll upgrade to and Vista and use Media Center if I have to, but I really hope there will be a way to make these work with with BeyondTV (and SageTV) - even if I still have to upgrade to Vista.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what the pricing will be AND when we'll be able to get our hands on these.


#1 - MCE doesn't support that many tuners.

#2 - I bet you $ that it won't be supported by anything but MCE for at least a while for security reasons.


----------



## jfulcher

Earl Bonovich said:


> 99.9% chance that it will need SP1, as over the last year... that was one of the main reasons why the unit didn't move foward faster (the HDPC-20).
> 
> SP1 is already an RC IIRC, so available for download to anyone that wants it today, and soon ready as a full blown released item...
> 
> And given that people have commented that the 360 can't talk directly to an item like this, yes... I would think the 360 would need a software update to talk directly to it.
> If that is going to be an option (that is just speculation regarding the comments of working with 360 in the documents)


I don't think the 360 will need an update depending on the codec used to store the data. The PC does all the heavy lifting in a 360 extender situation. The 360 connects to a virtual desktop using an RDP protocol of sorts.


----------



## jfulcher

BudShark said:


> The thought/remote possibility is that the HDPC20 will work directly off the USB port of the 360 - effectively turning the 360 into an advanced DirecTV receiver (no PC, no extender, no Vista - just a 360)
> 
> Which would be really cool for dorms/colleges/apartments... I'd like the MRV solution of having it on a PC, but IF they make it work directly with a 360 I can see the value.
> 
> Chris


So you want to run your 360 MORE to watch TV? M$ already has enough red ring of death problems - even with the "new and improved" 360s.


----------



## digitalfreak

openhelix said:


> Probably nothing too new, but I posted some info on my blog as well:
> http://www.networkworld.com/community/lewis
> Should be the top thread, click "read more".
> 
> though not nearly as active, I have access to the same resources ChrisL does, and maybe a few others (TAP and validation partner status and in redmond about once a month). I have a meeting with some MS folks thursday. I'll update info there if there's anything I can post.


Cool! We need as many sources of reliable information as we can get.


----------



## bakerfall

jfulcher said:


> I don't think the 360 will need an update depending on the codec used to store the data. The PC does all the heavy lifting in a 360 extender situation. The 360 connects to a virtual desktop using an RDP protocol of sorts.


This has already pretty much been proven to be untrue. The 360 extender software has it's own codecs and does not use the ones from the PC. The DVR-MS container will contain h.264 files and therefore the 360 will need to be able to play them. While the 360 dashboard can play mpeg 4, the 360 MCE can not.

It's the same way right now with many files, .avi and .mkv included. If you have codecs installed on your pc, you can play them on your pc, but you can't on your 360 extender.


----------



## jeonunh

There is plenty of speculation about the need for an update to the 360, but personally I don't think this is a big deal. I for one think one will be needed, but since the codec is already there, a small update will probably make it work in the MCE360. Considering the 360 is a closed box, the development time on such an update is pretty short, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's already done for internal testing.

The important update would be the one for Vista. With all the different hardware combinations out there it will take much more time to beta test the windows update, and if Fiji is required, it would appear we have at least 8-12 months to wait before these are available. My hope is that there will be a small software update to make it work without Figi, much like the Sony DVD changers came with software to make them work in MCE 2005, while the newer version had it run natively in the code (VMC)


----------



## Yogi76

MicroBeta said:


> :I seem to remember in another thread it was said that this was a software solution and not really hardware.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1374881&postcount=159
> 
> It would seem this unit is a pass-through to the PC and the real manipulation of the data is processed on the PC.
> 
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Mike


That post referring to a completely separate product. It was referring to a piece of software that will allow you to stream content from a DirecTV HR20/21 STB to a computer, not the HDPC-20. If you look further down in that thread, you can see where people talk about the confusion (around post 186).

Yogi


----------



## sorahl

jelockwood said:


> 5. Since this is Microsoft, it will almost certainly add DRM to the resulting DVR-MS file. This means it will probably not be possible to burn recordings to DVD or BluRay.
> .


one small correction. i burn dvr-ms to dvd with Nero all the time

john


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Some other last tidbits that I got before I left CES...

-) Right now... the "timeframe" of when this is out, is heavily dependent on when Microsoft is done with their portion of the project. So hopefully a few of the connected people on that side of the fence can get some updates.

-) They don't see why you WOULDN'T be able to add more then one of these units to a system... but until the final version of the software is available, it will remain a question. There is nothing on the hardware side of it that will prevent you from doing it

-) Price. While I didn't get a firm price on this unit... I did get enough information to make an educated guess on it. _So note: This is my educated guess on the price:_ ~$150. Reason being... this unit is inbetween a H20/21 and a HR20/21.


----------



## mjones73

jfulcher said:


> #1 - MCE doesn't support that many tuners.
> 
> #2 - I bet you $ that it won't be supported by anything but MCE for at least a while for security reasons.


#1 - With a few registry hacks it will, there is no physical reason it can't, MS chooses to limit you to two tuners of two different types. For example MCE will support one of these units and 2 OTA tuners out of the box, no reason it can't handle 4 of these tuners itself. We'll have to wait and see what comes out of the updates to MCE that are needed to support this unit.

#2 - Agreed.


----------



## ToddD

Earl Bonovich said:


> Some other last tidbits that I got before I left CES...
> 
> -) Right now... the "timeframe" of when this is out, is heavily dependent on when Microsoft is done with their portion of the project. So hopefully a few of the connected people on that side of the fence can get some updates.


The part of this whole thing I don't get is WHY DirecTv showed this at THIS CES. If in fact we will have to wait for "Fuji", the next version of Media Center, then this is a product for NEXT CES- not this one. Many of us ( Me Included) have been waiting almost patiently for this for over two years now, since they stated their desire to build it at CES 2005....Why you drag this up again BEFORE you are ready to deliver is just lost on me.

As someone said earlier in this thread.....I've had my heart broken by this before.....


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Earl Bonovich said:


> Some other last tidbits that I got before I left CES...
> 
> -) Right now... the "timeframe" of when this is out, is heavily dependent on when Microsoft is done with their portion of the project. So hopefully a few of the connected people on that side of the fence can get some updates.
> 
> -) They don't see why you WOULDN'T be able to add more then one of these units to a system... but until the final version of the software is available, it will remain a question. There is nothing on the hardware side of it that will prevent you from doing it
> 
> -) Price. While I didn't get a firm price on this unit... I did get enough information to make an educated guess on it. _So note: This is my educated guess on the price:_ ~$150. Reason being... this unit is inbetween a H20/21 and a HR20/21.


$150 seems quite low but if this was the case, I'd most definitely buy at least two! Only down side for me is I HATE, ULTIMATELY HATE Windows Vista. I installed it on two of my computers and then have had to go back to XP. Too many problems with Vista and it slowed my computer BIG TIME! I have one of the top computers but still slowed it down way too much. I do NOT wish to buy a new computer with Vista already on because almost all of my computers are practically brand new. The other problem with this device is the lack of antenna input on it. How can I record my favorite programs from CBS? My locals are not available on DirecTV, only off the air.


----------



## bakerfall

jeonunh said:


> There is plenty of speculation about the need for an update to the 360, but personally I don't think this is a big deal. I for one think one will be needed, but since the codec is already there, a small update will probably make it work in the MCE360. Considering the 360 is a closed box, the development time on such an update is pretty short, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's already done for internal testing.
> 
> The important update would be the one for Vista. With all the different hardware combinations out there it will take much more time to beta test the windows update, and if Fiji is required, it would appear we have at least 8-12 months to wait before these are available. My hope is that there will be a small software update to make it work without Figi, much like the Sony DVD changers came with software to make them work in MCE 2005, while the newer version had it run natively in the code (VMC)


a.) I agree it isn't a big deal, but the codec is not there. It is on the 360, it isn't in the extender software. Seems stupid, but it's true. The two can not play the same file types (dashboard can't play .mpg, MCE can't play .avi or h.264).

b.) It's stated on the documentation that this is compatible with Vista, so I would think that SP1 (which is very, very close) is all that would be needed. I doubt DirecTV has even seen Fiji.


----------



## bakerfall

ToddD said:


> The part of this whole thing I don't get is WHY DirecTv showed this at THIS CES. If in fact we will have to wait for "Fuji", the next version of Media Center, then this is a product for NEXT CES- not this one. Many of us ( Me Included) have been waiting almost patiently for this for over two years now, since they stated their desire to build it at CES 2005....Why you drag this up again BEFORE you are ready to deliver is just lost on me.
> 
> As someone said earlier in this thread.....I've had my heart broken by this before.....


Nothing has said that this requires Fiji, only that it requires Vista. I really don't think that this would be reliant on a software that isn't even in Beta yet.

Also, Fiji is coming out this year (from what I've read), so even if we had to wait for that, next CES would be too far away


----------



## jeonunh

bakerfall said:


> a.) I agree it isn't a big deal, but the codec is not there. It is on the 360, it isn't in the extender software. Seems stupid, but it's true. The two can not play the same file types (dashboard can't play .mpg, MCE can't play .avi or h.264).
> 
> b.) It's stated on the documentation that this is compatible with Vista, so I would think that SP1 (which is very, very close) is all that would be needed. I doubt DirecTV has even seen Fiji.


Should have been more clear, I meant exactly what you said. The codec works on the xbox, but not within 360mce. Thanks for clearing that up in case someone misunderstood.

I also agree that Fiji shouldn't be required since they apparently have this thing working now, and Figi is a long ways off. The question still remains whether MS will release software to make this work now, or use it as a major feature in Fiji. It's purely speculation on my part, but I wonder if the lack of information about Fiji up to this point was because they couldn't talk about the D* element of it until D* broke the silence. That may even imply that Fiji is closer to done than we think, just kept under tight wraps.


----------



## jfulcher

HDTVFreak07 said:


> $150 seems quite low but if this was the case, I'd most definitely buy at least two! Only down side for me is I HATE, ULTIMATELY HATE Windows Vista. I installed it on two of my computers and then have had to go back to XP. Too many problems with Vista and it slowed my computer BIG TIME! I have one of the top computers but still slowed it down way too much. I do NOT wish to buy a new computer with Vista already on because almost all of my computers are practically brand new. The other problem with this device is the lack of antenna input on it. How can I record my favorite programs from CBS? My locals are not available on DirecTV, only off the air.


With a OTA HD card..  They are like $50.


----------



## bakerfall

HDTVFreak07 said:


> $150 seems quite low but if this was the case, I'd most definitely buy at least two! Only down side for me is I HATE, ULTIMATELY HATE Windows Vista. I installed it on two of my computers and then have had to go back to XP. Too many problems with Vista and it slowed my computer BIG TIME! I have one of the top computers but still slowed it down way too much. I do NOT wish to buy a new computer with Vista already on because almost all of my computers are practically brand new. The other problem with this device is the lack of antenna input on it. How can I record my favorite programs from CBS? My locals are not available on DirecTV, only off the air.


Can you define "one of the top computers"  Seriously, what speed processor and how much RAM are we talking. A "top computer" to me would be a dual core with 2 GB+ RAM and Vista should fly on that.

Vista really isn't that bad, nice even on a computer with adequate resources. SP1 speeds it up a bit too.


----------



## dvrblogger

ToddD said:


> The part of this whole thing I don't get is WHY DirecTv showed this at THIS CES. If in fact we will have to wait for "Fuji", the next version of Media Center, then this is a product for NEXT CES- not this one. Many of us ( Me Included) have been waiting almost patiently for this for over two years now, since they stated their desire to build it at CES 2005....Why you drag this up again BEFORE you are ready to deliver is just lost on me.
> 
> As someone said earlier in this thread.....I've had my heart broken by this before.....


That is probably why there is no press release from DIRECTV or Microsoft. BTW Fiji is rumored to ship this year (*2008")
BTW Dell was showing the PC (software solution) over in the south hall of the show and ALienware had a version running in the AMD booth.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

jfulcher said:


> With a OTA HD card..  They are like $50.


You can combine the two? I already have a OTA (WinTV-HVR 950) usb device.

I forgot to ask... will that Hdpc20 come with a remote?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

bakerfall said:


> Can you define "one of the top computers"  Seriously, what speed processor and how much RAM are we talking. A "top computer" to me would be a dual core with 2 GB+ RAM and Vista should fly on that.
> 
> Vista really isn't that bad, nice even on a computer with adequate resources. SP1 speeds it up a bit too.


Yes, dual-core 2 gb ram. Maybe it's just the upgrade. Maybe if I get the full version software and install it as if the computers are new, it might fly. Do you think maybe the "upgrade" version is the problem?


----------



## jeonunh

bakerfall said:


> Can you define "one of the top computers"  Seriously, what speed processor and how much RAM are we talking. A "top computer" to me would be a dual core with 2 GB+ RAM and Vista should fly on that.
> 
> Vista really isn't that bad, nice even on a computer with adequate resources. SP1 speeds it up a bit too.


I agree, Vista isn't bad at all. I used it for VMC for awhile and thought it worked better than MCE2005. The only reason I switched back was it's incompatibility with the Firestb software that controls my D* boxes via serial. I personally can't wait for this to come out so I can switch back.


----------



## dvrblogger

jeonunh said:


> Should have been more clear, I meant exactly what you said. The codec works on the xbox, but not within 360mce. Thanks for clearing that up in case someone misunderstood.
> 
> I also agree that Fiji shouldn't be required since they apparently have this thing working now, and Figi is a long ways off. The question still remains whether MS will release software to make this work now, or use it as a major feature in Fiji. It's purely speculation on my part, but I wonder if the lack of information about Fiji up to this point was because they couldn't talk about the D* element of it until D* broke the silence. That may even imply that Fiji is closer to done than we think, just kept under tight wraps.


Fiji is probably needed for secure h264 codec support . Also the HDPC20 was not on display anywhere at CES that I know of.


----------



## dvrblogger

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Yes, dual-core 2 gb ram. Maybe it's just the upgrade. Maybe if I get the full version software and install it as if the computers are new, it might fly. Do you think maybe the "upgrade" version is the problem?


For HDPC20 the PC would need to handle two records and one playback of MPEG2 HD or H264 so that a fairly hefty PC that has HDMI or DVI+HDCP graphics card is also needed.


----------



## bakerfall

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Yes, dual-core 2 gb ram. Maybe it's just the upgrade. Maybe if I get the full version software and install it as if the computers are new, it might fly. Do you think maybe the "upgrade" version is the problem?


Oh god, you didn't run the upgrade, did you? I did that once and it totally f'd my computer.

You can do a clean install with the upgrade CD, you just need to have an XP CD as well. Do that, I guarantee you it will be better.


----------



## jeonunh

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Yes, dual-core 2 gb ram. Maybe it's just the upgrade. Maybe if I get the full version software and install it as if the computers are new, it might fly. Do you think maybe the "upgrade" version is the problem?


I used an upgrade version to install a fresh copy. There is a little work around that lets you do it... Install Vista without entering a product key (leave the ethernet unplugged to avoid updates) Then install it again (I know waste of time) and the upgrade will see a previous version of windows on the machine and give you a clean install. There may be a couplke extra steps in there, but you can search it out on the web pretty easily.


----------



## bakerfall

dvrblogger said:


> For HDPC20 the PC would need to handle two records and one playback of MPEG2 HD or H264 so that a fairly hefty PC that has HDMI or DVI+HDCP graphics card is also needed.


Actually, if you are using an extender, I'm fairly certain it is functioning as a file server sending the video to the extender which then does a lot of the work. I know I can playback HD video on my 360 that I can't play on my old(er) PC.


----------



## xzi

dvrblogger said:


> For HDPC20 the PC would need to handle two records and one playback of MPEG2 HD or H264 so that a fairly hefty PC that has HDMI or DVI+HDCP graphics card is also needed.


I don't think you'll need HDMI or DVI unless they choose to include HDCP. Right now, Media Center HD (OTA) doesn't need HDCP, and therefor works just fine using VGA or DVI.

As for the power needed, Microsoft requires all tuners be hardware-based encoders so the number of simultaneous HD depends much more on your stroage subsystem speeds and very little on CPU.


----------



## jelockwood

sorahl said:


> one small correction. i burn dvr-ms to dvd with Nero all the time
> 
> john


You can certainly do this with DVR-MS files that do no have DRM applied to them, I do this myself for DVB-T (Terrestrial) recordings, and I am sure fellow Europeans are doing it currently with the unofficial DVB-S solutions. However I would expect that when Microsoft do support DVB-S and DVB-S2 officially (for example via this HDPC20 product) they will add DRM and thus prevent you burning recordings to DVD, HD-DVD or BluRay.

I cannot see DirecTV allowing customers to make full DVD quality recordings let alone HD quality ones.

I am also worried that in order to use the HDPC20 (at least in High Def) one will need a video card with a HDCP compliant chip, unfortunately my current Media Center machine (an Apple Mac mini Core2Duo) whilst otherwise capable of doing all this has a built-in Intel GMA950 which does not support HDCP.

Whilst it would be preferable for Apple to catch up and start supporting HDCP (as they currently don't support playing HD-DVD or BluRay they have not felt the need), if this HDPC20 (or equivalent) is released by Sky in the UK I would be willing to build a 'real' PC Media Center box with suitable video card.


----------



## bakerfall

jelockwood said:


> You can certainly do this with DVR-MS files that do no have DRM applied to them, I do this myself for DVB-T (Terrestrial) recordings, and I am sure fellow Europeans are doing it currently with the unofficial DVB-S solutions. However I would expect that when Microsoft do support DVB-S and DVB-S2 officially (for example via this HDPC20 product) they will add DRM and thus prevent you burning recordings to DVD, HD-DVD or BluRay.
> 
> I cannot see DirecTV allowing customers to make full DVD quality recordings let alone HD quality ones.
> 
> I am also worried that in order to use the HDPC20 (at least in High Def) one will need a video card with a HDCP compliant chip, unfortunately my current Media Center machine (an Apple Mac mini Core2Duo) whilst otherwise capable of doing all this has a built-in Intel GMA950 which does not support HDCP.
> 
> Whilst it would be preferable for Apple to catch up and start supporting HDCP (as they currently don't support playing HD-DVD or BluRay they have not felt the need), if this HDPC20 (or equivalent) is released by Sky in the UK I would be willing to build a 'real' PC Media Center box with suitable video card.


Can't you burn DRM'd content directly from Media Center?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

I now see that the Hdpc20 does come with a remote. Can someone please show an image of what it looks like if there is one?


----------



## bakerfall

HDTVFreak07 said:


> I now see that the Hdpc20 does come with a remote. Can someone please show an image of what it looks like if there is one?


There isn't one.


----------



## digitalfreak

Earl Bonovich said:


> Some other last tidbits that I got before I left CES...
> 
> -) Right now... the "timeframe" of when this is out, is heavily dependent on when Microsoft is done with their portion of the project. So hopefully a few of the connected people on that side of the fence can get some updates.
> 
> -) They don't see why you WOULDN'T be able to add more then one of these units to a system... but until the final version of the software is available, it will remain a question. There is nothing on the hardware side of it that will prevent you from doing it
> 
> -) Price. While I didn't get a firm price on this unit... I did get enough information to make an educated guess on it. _So note: This is my educated guess on the price:_ ~$150. Reason being... this unit is inbetween a H20/21 and a HR20/21.


There are a couple of Microsoft folks who answer questions in the Ask Jessica forums at The Green Button. They're working on getting what answers they can on the Microsoft side.


----------



## mjones73

bakerfall said:


> There isn't one.


Per the CES brochure there is. Last bullet point on the front.


----------



## jeonunh

mjones73 said:


> Per the CES brochure there is. Last bullet point on the front.


I think he meant no picture


----------



## mjones73

HDTVFreak07 said:


> You can combine the two? I already have a OTA (WinTV-HVR 950) usb device.
> 
> I forgot to ask... will that Hdpc20 come with a remote?


Yes, MCE can handle two types of tuners out of the box, two OTA, two Directv tuners for example. There are some hacks to allow more but we won't know if they'll work with this until the new software and the hardware is available.

Unlike the HR20/21, it can record all 4 streams at the same time if you were to go this route also.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

mjones73 said:


> Per the CES brochure there is. Last bullet point on the front.


That's where I saw it and the reason why I asked if there was any "photo" of it.


----------



## mjones73

jeonunh said:


> I think he meant no picture


Sorry, I need more coffee.


----------



## jfulcher

HDTVFreak07 said:


> You can combine the two? I already have a OTA (WinTV-HVR 950) usb device.
> 
> I forgot to ask... will that Hdpc20 come with a remote?


No it wouldn't come with a remote - MCE would control it - so you would use a MCE remote.


----------



## bakerfall

HDTVFreak07 said:


> That's where I saw it and the reason why I asked if there was any "photo" of it.


Yes. "there isn't one" meant there isn't a photo, not there isn't a remote


----------



## mjones73

jfulcher said:


> No it wouldn't come with a remote - MCE would control it - so you would use a MCE remote.


It comes with a remote, read about 7 posts up...


----------



## bakerfall

jfulcher said:


> No it wouldn't come with a remote - MCE would control it - so you would use a MCE remote.


It does specifically say it has a remote, but I assume that's just a D* branded MCE remote.


----------



## jeonunh

jfulcher said:


> No it wouldn't come with a remote - MCE would control it - so you would use a MCE remote.


It WILL come with a remote, but it will likely just be an MCE remote. Probably to give a remote to people that bought Vista systems that didn't come with one. I think this is an obvious nod that it will not be OEM.

Edit: A bunch of people beat me to this one.


----------



## kngof9ex

so theoretically *if* you could plug the device directly into the xbox360 via usb it would work(decoding). I plug an external HD directly into my 360 and play dixv, xvid ect. no prob im hoping this is one way it will work when it comes out



bakerfall said:


> Right now to get the most out of 360 video playback, you really need to use both the Media Center and Dashboard playback tools.
> 
> Media Center codecs: .mpg, .wmv, .dvr-ms
> 
> Dashboard codecs: .avi (divx/xvid included), .wmv, h.264
> 
> Neither does "everything". Media center on the PC uses your PC's codecs so even things like .mkv work.


----------



## bakerfall

kngof9ex said:


> so theoretically *if* you could plug the device directly into the xbox360 via usb it would work(decoding). I plug an external HD directly into my 360 and play dixv, xvid ect. no prob im hoping this is one way it will work when it comes out


No, it absolutely will not work this way. 100% no.

the 360 is a Media Center extender, not a Media Center. It has no guide, therefore no way to know what's on or what to record, not to mention does not have the capability of recording. This is all done by the PC and simply replayed by the 360.

This isn't going to reinvent the wheel, it's simply going to add D* tuners to MCE. That's it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bakerfall said:


> No, it absolutely will not work this way. 100% no.
> 
> the 360 is a Media Center extender, not a Media Center. It has no guide, therefore no way to know what's on or what to record, not to mention does not have the capability of recording. This is all done by the PC and simply replayed by the 360.
> 
> This isn't going to reinvent the wheel, it's simply going to add D* tuners to MCE. That's it.


Even in that case... why couldn't the HDCP do a lot of that work...
And the XBOX360 talk directly to it?

It's not like they COULDN"T do a software update to the XBOX360 that would allow this to be a TV tuner for the 360 with out a PC involved.


----------



## BudShark

bakerfall said:


> No, it absolutely will not work this way. 100% no.
> 
> the 360 is a Media Center extender, not a Media Center. It has no guide, therefore no way to know what's on or what to record, not to mention does not have the capability of recording. This is all done by the PC and simply replayed by the 360.
> 
> This isn't going to reinvent the wheel, it's simply going to add D* tuners to MCE. That's it.


You're making as many assumptions here as anyone else. Unfortunately there just wasn't enough information coming out to answer all the questions.

While I agree - you're scenario is 100% feasible - so is the alternate scenario which is:

The HDPC20 is a full functioning H2x receiver with a processor, OS, and ability to inline render guide data. It just has no MPEG decoding for video playback, nor does it have video outs. It operates in 2 modes - dumb MCE mode and full functioning receiver mode with digital outs. In the second mode, it would be possible for any USB device (or potentially ethernet) device with MPEG decoding to playback the stream. The remote may also be a full functioning DirecTV remote which would allow control.

So which is it? We don't know. Smart money would be on the scenario 1 (which you describe). But if DirecTV really wanted to move the market forward and come up with the killer device - scenario 2 would be the ticket. And actually scenario 2 wouldn't require much more development than scenario 1.

Chris


----------



## bakerfall

Earl Bonovich said:


> Even in that case... why couldn't the HDCP do a lot of that work...
> And the XBOX360 talk directly to it?
> 
> It's not like they COULDN"T do a software update to the XBOX360 that would allow this to be a TV tuner for the 360 with out a PC involved.


The thing is, it wouldn't be Media Center anymore, it would be something different. Mediaroom is it's own application (MS IPTV that will work directly with the 360).

I should say it won't work this way as advertised, and if they were to attempt such a shift, it would require massive changes to the 360. I just didn't want people to get carried away with something. From what that form states, and from what other tuners do, such a thing is not really feasable.

Maybe you know something I don't, I just really don't see it happening.


----------



## RoundRockJohn

BudShark said:


> You're making as many assumptions here as anyone else. Unfortunately there just wasn't enough information coming out to answer all the questions.
> 
> While I agree - you're scenario is 100% feasible - so is the alternate scenario which is:
> 
> The HDPC20 is a full functioning H2x receiver with a processor, OS, and ability to inline render guide data. It just has no MPEG decoding for video playback, nor does it have video outs. It operates in 2 modes - dumb MCE mode and full functioning receiver mode with digital outs. In the second mode, it would be possible for any USB device (or potentially ethernet) device with MPEG decoding to playback the stream. The remote may also be a full functioning DirecTV remote which would allow control.
> 
> So which is it? We don't know. Smart money would be on the scenario 1 (which you describe). But if DirecTV really wanted to move the market forward and come up with the killer device - scenario 2 would be the ticket. And actually scenario 2 wouldn't require much more development than scenario 1.
> 
> Chris


That seems pretty unlikely for one hundred and fifty bucks....


----------



## BudShark

RoundRockJohn said:


> That seems pretty unlikely for one hundred and fifty bucks....


I suppose you're right when for $199 bucks from DirecTV I can get dual tuners, HD tuning, 300GB Hard Drive, Recording, VOD, etc etc... :lol:

In the case I described it does much less than an HR2x series receiver, but costs $50 less... How is that a stretch financially?

Chris


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RoundRockJohn said:


> That seems pretty unlikely for one hundred and fifty bucks....


Why?

What makes this system so much more then an HR20/21?

You take out all of the video output equipment (chips/physical connectors)
You take out all of the hard drive equipment (chips/drive)
You already had a USB on the HR20/21

And you just introduce the interface chipset so the PC can control it
(which probably includes some more chips, but)...

Why isn't it possilbe?


----------



## bakerfall

BudShark said:


> I suppose you're right when for $199 bucks from DirecTV I can get dual tuners, HD tuning, 300GB Hard Drive, Recording, VOD, etc etc... :lol:
> 
> In the case I described it does much less than an HR2x series receiver, but costs $50 less... How is that a stretch financially?
> 
> Chris


My assumptions are based on a.) what existing tuners (cable/ota) can do, and b.) what is advertised on the sheet Earl posted. It states "can stream all your media to multiple tvs in the house via Windows Media Center Extenders", which it then defines. All of the features; thumbnails, search functions, movie guides, etc. are features of Media Center. The idea that Microsoft is going to fundamentally change the 360, to make it a Media Center on it's own, only for DirecTV is farfetched to say the least.

If this thing comes out and does only what is advertised, I think it's a huge release.


----------



## mva5580

Well I DID have a dream last night where I was at some show and they had a banner display up of this device stating that the release price was $150 and the release date was March of '08.

And I am NOT kidding lol. I really did. Yeah, I want this thing. Bad.


----------



## bakerfall

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why?
> 
> What makes this system so much more then an HR20/21?
> 
> You take out all of the video output equipment (chips/physical connectors)
> You take out all of the hard drive equipment (chips/drive)
> You already had a USB on the HR20/21
> 
> And you just introduce the interface chipset so the PC can control it
> (which probably includes some more chips, but)...
> 
> Why isn't it possilbe?


I agree $150 for a D* tuner is very reasonable and appropriately priced, imho.


----------



## BudShark

bakerfall said:


> My assumptions are based on a.) what existing tuners (cable/ota) can do, and b.) what is advertised on the sheet Earl posted. It states "can stream all your media to multiple tvs in the house via Windows Media Center Extenders", which it then defines. All of the features; thumbnails, search functions, movie guides, etc. are features of Media Center. The idea that Microsoft is going to fundamentally change the 360, to make it a Media Center on it's own, only for DirecTV is farfetched to say the least.
> 
> If this thing comes out and does only what is advertised, I think it's a huge release.


We agree. Based on the brochure, day 1 release - I think its a MC tuner.

However - I think it could/can be so much more and its dependent on 1 thing. Whether or not its based on the H2x platform and has all the components of an H2x minus the video output.

Honestly, for $150 - I expect it to be more than a dumb tuner. And while a huge first step if it is just a tuner, I am still hopeful its more. And until we get confirmation of what it is and how it works and what the remote is - a brochure stating it does A - does not mean it doesn't do B.

Thats all I'm saying.

Chris


----------



## RoundRockJohn

For $150 exposing the HR series of tuners to an MCE computer seems a reasonable price. Assuming all it's going to do is wrap it's mpeg4 stream in a DRM formart the tuners can pass on to the end decoding and rendering device is perfectly reasonable.

And probably done without having subsidize the hardware very much.

In the "alternate scenario" described I see more general purpose requirements, and to me, that means more flexible hardware costing more. 

I just don't think people need to get all starry-eyed about what's feasible, or even necessary for such a low price point.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

The HDPC20 will be a HUGE breakthrough for ME! I LOVE using the Windows Media Center and the ONLY reason why I didn't use it much is because of the lack of DirecTV tuner. I will still use my HR20-100's but with the HDPC, I can record a show on my laptop and when I travel, I can watch the shows I recorded while travelling (of course, not while I'm driving but when I'm either riding in a car or plane). Also, there are some features that I DO use on Media Center such as its weather (way better than using the active on HR20's), rarely used Instant Messenger, and perhaps listen to the XM music while viewing photos. I REALLY can't wait and I'll buy one as soon as they're released. I don't mind the $4.99 "additional receiver" fee. Do any of you think this will apply? I'm pretty sure it will. Also, do you think it will be released in Best Buy or only through DirecTV?


----------



## bakerfall

BudShark said:


> We agree. Based on the brochure, day 1 release - I think its a MC tuner.
> 
> However - I think it could/can be so much more and its dependent on 1 thing. Whether or not its based on the H2x platform and has all the components of an H2x minus the video output.
> 
> Honestly, for $150 - I expect it to be more than a dumb tuner. And while a huge first step if it is just a tuner, I am still hopeful its more. And until we get confirmation of what it is and how it works and what the remote is - a brochure stating it does A - does not mean it doesn't do B.
> 
> Thats all I'm saying.
> 
> Chris


While I agree that it's capabilities can be expanded, I just have a very hard time believing that the 360 is going to be changed that dramatically.


----------



## BudShark

bakerfall said:


> While I agree that it's capabilities can be expanded, I just have a very hard time believing that the 360 is going to be changed that dramatically.


I'm hopeful that it can be used with multiple systems (Mac, Linux, 360, PS3, etc) - not just a 360.

But to your point. Based on Sony's already committed to digital tuner capabilties for the PS3 (at least for Europe), I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the Xbox will be made to work as a native tuner for any of the multitude of USB tuners out there - including the HDPC20. Its a logical next step.

Chris


----------



## jeonunh

Anything is possible, but for right now, just give me MCE support and I'll be happy. Native 360 support means nothing to me since I would rather have the tuners available to a bunch of extenders instead of tied to one xbox. If anything, I want to ditch the 360 and get real V2 extenders. The 360 sounds like a jet engine in my bedroom.


----------



## bakerfall

BudShark said:


> I'm hopeful that it can be used with multiple systems (Mac, Linux, 360, PS3, etc) - not just a 360.
> 
> But to your point. Based on Sony's already committed to digital tuner capabilties for the PS3 (at least for Europe), I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the Xbox will be made to work as a native tuner for any of the multitude of USB tuners out there - including the HDPC20. Its a logical next step.
> 
> Chris


This already is in the works with Mediaroom. If they wanted to make the 360 it's own D* compatible receiver, I would bet that it's an adaptation of Mediaroom, not Media Center anymore.


----------



## dklippi

phat78boy said:


> Why I suggested VPN.


You need static IP for VPN, too.


----------



## bakerfall

dklippi said:


> You need static IP for VPN, too.


no, you can use dynamic dns.


----------



## BudShark

bakerfall said:


> This already is in the works with Mediaroom. If they wanted to make the 360 it's own D* compatible receiver, I would bet that it's an adaptation of Mediaroom, not Media Center anymore.


Lets be clear on this though...

Mediaroom is a software update to Xbox's. Microsoft is currently limiting this to just packaged products from partners (currently just British Telecom) - BUT - every XBox360 could have the Mediaroom dashboard added to it if MSFT so desired. So you can call it Mediaroom, but the ability to act as a tuner and guide for TV service can be added to every Xbox360 without as large an effort as has been implied - because its already there and working.

So - the Xbox360 can be a tuner with guide integration. The Xbox360 has fully functional USB ports. The Xbox360 already has software developed that turns it into a TV tuner. The HDPC20 outputs video that we assume the Xbox360 can decode due to brochure comments about using it as an extender.

While we are straying pretty far from the topic, we aren't talking about a big stretch here. All the pieces are in place to do exactly what has been suggested. Whether they are put together or not is another thing.

I never tied the Xbox360 native use of an HDPC20 to Media Center. I've also never said anyone said this would work day 1. All I've said is that its possible, all individual pieces are there, I see value in it for some people, and I would like to see it done because it shows greater flexibility for the HDPC20 which is my #1 goal (don't make it just an MC tuner).

Chris


----------



## openhelix

Earl Bonovich said:


> -) Right now... the "timeframe" of when this is out, is heavily dependent on when Microsoft is done with their portion of the project. So hopefully a few of the connected people on that side of the fence can get some updates.
> 
> -) They don't see why you WOULDN'T be able to add more then one of these units to a system... but until the final version of the software is available, it will remain a question. There is nothing on the hardware side of it that will prevent you from doing it
> 
> -) Price. While I didn't get a firm price on this unit... I did get enough information to make an educated guess on it. _So note: This is my educated guess on the price:_ ~$150. Reason being... this unit is inbetween a H20/21 and a HR20/21.


Thanks Earl. Good questions and I'll be sure to ask them tomorrow. I have a feeling the answer to #1 will be vague (ie. Q1, Q2). If they had a firm date they would have announced it. I'm wondering what all MS has to do for their side of the project? I wouldn't expect it to be much.

I hope you're right on the price, but my gut says about twice that.


----------



## dklippi

bakerfall said:


> Can you define "one of the top computers"  Seriously, what speed processor and how much RAM are we talking. A "top computer" to me would be a dual core with 2 GB+ RAM and Vista should fly on that.
> 
> Vista really isn't that bad, nice even on a computer with adequate resources. SP1 speeds it up a bit too.


Don't forget the importance of the video card. 256MB RAM on the video card and you will have no problems.


----------



## openhelix

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Yes, dual-core 2 gb ram. Maybe it's just the upgrade. Maybe if I get the full version software and install it as if the computers are new, it might fly. Do you think maybe the "upgrade" version is the problem?


It could be. In place upgrades generally run ~30% slower in my experience than clean installs.


----------



## bakerfall

BudShark said:


> Lets be clear on this though...
> 
> Mediaroom is a software update to Xbox's. Microsoft is currently limiting this to just packaged products from partners (currently just British Telecom) - BUT - every XBox360 could have the Mediaroom dashboard added to it if MSFT so desired. So you can call it Mediaroom, but the ability to act as a tuner and guide for TV service can be added to every Xbox360 without as large an effort as has been implied - because its already there and working.
> 
> So - the Xbox360 can be a tuner with guide integration. The Xbox360 has fully functional USB ports. The Xbox360 already has software developed that turns it into a TV tuner. The HDPC20 outputs video that we assume the Xbox360 can decode due to brochure comments about using it as an extender.
> 
> While we are straying pretty far from the topic, we aren't talking about a big stretch here. All the pieces are in place to do exactly what has been suggested. Whether they are put together or not is another thing.
> 
> I never tied the Xbox360 native use of an HDPC20 to Media Center. I've also never said anyone said this would work day 1. All I've said is that its possible, all individual pieces are there, I see value in it for some people, and I would like to see it done because it shows greater flexibility for the HDPC20 which is my #1 goal (don't make it just an MC tuner).
> 
> Chris


We're actually in agreement here, despite the back and forth. I agree that if this were to be implemented, it would most likely be an addition to Mediaroom and have nothing todo with media center. That would be the easiest and most logical way to do it (instead of adding full media center functionality to 360s).

What MS has said so far is that Mediaroom is strictly IPTV, that could certainly change. I kind of hope it does, the Mediaroom interface is even better than Vista Media Center.


----------



## bakerfall

openhelix said:


> Thanks Earl. Good questions and I'll be sure to ask them tomorrow. I have a feeling the answer to #1 will be vague (ie. Q1, Q2). If they had a firm date they would have announced it. I'm wondering what all MS has to do for their side of the project? I wouldn't expect it to be much.
> 
> I hope you're right on the price, but my gut says about twice that.


I can't see them charging $100 more than a full blown HD DVR. Doesn't make sense.


----------



## dklippi

bakerfall said:


> no, you can use dynamic dns.


OK, then you don't need a static IP for straight RDP then either if you use DDNS.


----------



## jeonunh

bakerfall said:


> I can't see them charging $100 more than a full blown HD DVR. Doesn't make sense.


They shouldn't, but look at the price of the cable card tuners, and they are only one tuner each. Economies of scale play a part too. They will without a doubt sell thousands more of the full blown DVR's than this box. I expect a price around $300 to start, and the price will go down if they sell well.


----------



## P Smith

This is niche product for 1/10000 part of their customers, they will price it as high as geeks could afford, but I can't see how it would cost them more then $100.


----------



## mva5580

jeonunh said:


> They shouldn't, but look at the price of the cable card tuners, and they are only one tuner each. Economies of scale play a part too. They will without a doubt sell thousands more of the full blown DVR's than this box. I expect a price around $300 to start, and the price will go down if they sell well.


I agree with this. I totally agree that this box SHOULD sell for less than the HD DVR's considering what is inside of it, but the point is well made that this box will not sell nearly as many units as the standard DVR's that the average customer will want, therefore the price will start out higher.

My initial guess was the 250-300 range, and that's what I'm sticking with until I actually see a direct announcement of anything.

And if it is in that range, I'll still definitely pay it and not complain at all. This device is what I've been waiting for, and I just want to be able to own it. And I think DirecTV/Microsoft know that the high end-buffs will pay up for a device like this, so they won't worry a whole lot about pricing it above its internal feature set.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

How will I know the minute it's released? I'd like to know as soon as it is available so I can run and buy the HDPC20.


----------



## houskamp

Just seems like a corvette with a 2 cyl engine..
Needs to get to the point of 3 or 4 of these, with capability to serve out 6-8 streams..
of course that would bring up the next problem of IIRC the harddrives can only handle up to 10 HD streams at a time..so it would reqiure 1 drive for each pair of tuners (2 in plus 8 out equals 10)
Then you would have to load balance between the harddrives (schedule empty drive/tuner pair first)
But someday maybe we could have 4 (8 sat) tuners, feeding 4 2tb drives, streaming out to 8 locations with full control at all locations..


----------



## digitalfreak

jeonunh said:


> They shouldn't, but look at the price of the cable card tuners, and they are only one tuner each. Economies of scale play a part too. They will without a doubt sell thousands more of the full blown DVR's than this box. I expect a price around $300 to start, and the price will go down if they sell well.


Question is, is that price a buy or another one of D*'s infamous "lease fees" (or whatever it's called). When I buy a OCUR tuner, I own it. Hopefully it will be this way with the D* box as well, though I'm not holding my breath...


----------



## jeonunh

digitalfreak said:


> Question is, is that price a buy or another one of D*'s infamous "lease fees" (or whatever it's called). When I buy a OCUR tuner, I own it. Hopefully it will be this way with the D* box as well, though I'm not holding my breath...


That's a good question. If I can't buy it outright and have to pay a lease fee on top of my extra receiver fee, and some fee to get the box, I'll probably dump D* and invest in a cable card system. I bought all my equiptment outright on ebay and had to fight with customer service to get them to set me up without a contract. If I have to get a leased box I'm stuck... no thank you.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

jeonunh said:


> That's a good question. If I can't buy it outright and have to pay a lease fee on top of my extra receiver fee, and some fee to get the box, I'll probably dump D* and invest in a cable card system. I bought all my equiptment outright on ebay and had to fight with customer service to get them to set me up without a contract. If I have to get a leased box I'm stuck... no thank you.


Well, with leased, if something goes wrong with the unit you get, at least it might be replaced for free.

Here's a second thought: why don't they charge ONE leased fee for all unit you got? Am I actually paying three leased fee per month for the two HR20's and one H20 I've got? Now that you mentioned it, I'm really confused. People have to pay 4.99 for each additional receivers per month anyway and am I actually paying 4.99 for additional receiver PLUS leased fee per month?


----------



## bakerfall

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Well, with leased, if something goes wrong with the unit you get, at least it might be replaced for free.
> 
> Here's a second thought: why don't they charge ONE leased fee for all unit you got? Am I actually paying three leased fee per month for the two HR20's and one H20 I've got? Now that you mentioned it, I'm really confused. People have to pay 4.99 for each additional receivers per month anyway and am I actually paying 4.99 for additional receiver PLUS leased fee per month?


The lease fee is instead of the mirroring fee.


----------



## JayB

digitalfreak said:


> Question is, is that price a buy or another one of D*'s infamous "lease fees" (or whatever it's called). When I buy a OCUR tuner, I own it. Hopefully it will be this way with the D* box as well, though I'm not holding my breath...


I'd put real money on it being a lease - it's yet another way to suck you into a contract. That being said, I ultimately really don't care - just gimme one...or two.


----------



## ShapeGSX

Earl Bonovich said:


> Even in that case... why couldn't the HDCP do a lot of that work...
> And the XBOX360 talk directly to it?
> 
> It's not like they COULDN"T do a software update to the XBOX360 that would allow this to be a TV tuner for the 360 with out a PC involved.


The "Media Center" for the 360 isn't really a media center program at all. It is just a remote desktop protocol client with some changes to allow local decode of media.

The meat of Media Center is not in the 360. It is in the PC. So there is no way for the 360 to even control the tuner.

Now, Microsoft is building a new application into the 360 for IPTV. This tuner might be able to work with that, if they build it in.

Personally, I have no idea why someone would want to do this, what with the limited and expensive hard drive space on the 360. For that matter, I don't even know why people want to put music on their 360's hard drive. Stream it. I have 2 TB of hard drive space in my home for media, not even including my DVRs. The 20GB drive that the 360 comes with, or even the 120GB drive, is PUNY!

I love the 360 for games and for streaming, but it isn't meant to be a media center by itself. It is meant to be a streaming playback device.

Now, MS is changing this with IPTV, but again, I don't see the attraction.


----------



## mjones73

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Well, with leased, if something goes wrong with the unit you get, at least it might be replaced for free.
> 
> Here's a second thought: why don't they charge ONE leased fee for all unit you got? Am I actually paying three leased fee per month for the two HR20's and one H20 I've got? Now that you mentioned it, I'm really confused. People have to pay 4.99 for each additional receivers per month anyway and am I actually paying 4.99 for additional receiver PLUS leased fee per month?


If you are paying a mirroring and a lease fee, you are still getting charged for an old receiver on your account. It should only be one or the other depending it it's leased or owned. The primary receiver on the account should also have neither a lease or mirror fee.

Check your bill or log into your account and see what they show you have active under receivers, when I upgraded, they never took my replaced receivers off.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

At a minimum... you will be paying the $4.99 a month fee (which is based on the access cards)... be it called a mirrored/lease fee.

As for if this unit will be OWNED or LEASED.
I would almost guarantee it will be a leased piece of equipment, in the same way that all the other DirecTV receivers leased.


----------



## jeonunh

Earl Bonovich said:


> At a minimum... you will be paying the $4.99 a month fee (which is based on the access cards)... be it called a mirrored/lease fee.
> 
> As for if this unit will be OWNED or LEASED.
> I would almost guarantee it will be a leased piece of equipment, in the same way that all the other DirecTV receivers leased.


Ugh, you're probably right. I didn't even think about that until now. There is no way I want a contract. There is a pending deal here in Maine between Fairpoint and Verizon, and if it gets shut down I could be getting FIOS tv in the next year. I guess I'll probably know the answer to that before these things come out anyway...


----------



## bakerfall

jeonunh said:


> Ugh, you're probably right. I didn't even think about that until now. There is no way I want a contract. There is a pending deal here in Maine between Fairpoint and Verizon, and if it gets shut down I could be getting FIOS tv in the next year. I guess I'll probably know the answer to that before these things come out anyway...


owned does not equal no contract extension. My contract was extended when I activated my HR10-250 that I paid $1000 for.


----------



## carl6

P Smith said:


> This is niche product for 1/10000 part of their customers, they will price it as high as geeks could afford, but I can't see how it would cost them more then $100.


I agree that today this is a niche product for a very few enthusiasts. However five or ten years from now everything will be integrated, and this is simply the leading/bleeding edge of that. Today's enthusiasts will help pave the way for the mainstream to follow.

Carl


----------



## Doug Brott

carl6 said:


> I agree that today this is a niche product for a very few enthusiasts. However five or ten years from now everything will be integrated, and this is simply the leading/bleeding edge of that. Today's enthusiasts will help pave the way for the mainstream to follow.
> 
> Carl


good point Carl and I agree with your assessment.


----------



## jeonunh

bakerfall said:


> owned does not equal no contract extension. My contract was extended when I activated my HR10-250 that I paid $1000 for.


Maybe I was lucky, but after about 2 hours on the phone with them I had all four of my recievers put into their system as "owned" and I have a month to month contract.


----------



## bakerfall

ShapeGSX said:


> The "Media Center" for the 360 isn't really a media center program at all. It is just a remote desktop protocol client with some changes to allow local decode of media.
> 
> The meat of Media Center is not in the 360. It is in the PC. So there is no way for the 360 to even control the tuner.
> 
> Now, Microsoft is building a new application into the 360 for IPTV. This tuner might be able to work with that, if they build it in.
> 
> Personally, I have no idea why someone would want to do this, what with the limited and expensive hard drive space on the 360. For that matter, I don't even know why people want to put music on their 360's hard drive. Stream it. I have 2 TB of hard drive space in my home for media, not even including my DVRs. The 20GB drive that the 360 comes with, or even the 120GB drive, is PUNY!
> 
> I love the 360 for games and for streaming, but it isn't meant to be a media center by itself. It is meant to be a streaming playback device.
> 
> Now, MS is changing this with IPTV, but again, I don't see the attraction.


If I was single and living in an apartment and had no fears of the 360 overheating, I would love to have a solution that did all of that and did it well.

However, the prospect of getting the red rings of death and also losing TV is terrifying


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Earl, how will I know as soon as it becomes available? Will it be through retailers or through DirecTV only?


----------



## rgreenpc

There are several non-microsoft extenders out or coming out now.


----------



## digitalfreak

JayB said:


> I'd put real money on it being a lease - it's yet another way to suck you into a contract. That being said, I ultimately really don't care - just gimme one...or two.


I don't mind the lease, I just don't like having to pay a sum up front AND pay a monthly fee, ala the $299 fee for the HR20.


----------



## jeonunh

bakerfall said:


> If I was single and living in an apartment and had no fears of the 360 overheating, I would love to have a solution that did all of that and did it well.
> 
> However, the prospect of getting the red rings of death and also losing TV is terrifying


The sound of the thing would (and does) drive me nuts. I guess until we know how much they cost, we couldn't really speculate whether something like this would even make sense anyway... Why lay out a bunch of cash for a xbox peripheral when you can just get the standalone dvr.

On another note, the silence from MS now that the cat's out of the bag is deafening. I don't think any new information is going to be forthcoming for awhile.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Earl, how will I know as soon as it becomes available? Will it be through retailers or through DirecTV only?


Both Retailers and DirecTV.

When it is ready for market, you will certainly see something here about it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

digitalfreak said:


> I don't mind the lease, I just don't like having to pay a sum up front AND pay a monthly fee, ala the $299 fee for the HR20.


The monthly fee has been pretty much the most consistant thing about DirecTV since day #1.

Even when we had to pay $1k for the HR10-250 (to own it)... we still had to pay the monthly fee for the extra receiver.


----------



## jeonunh

Earl Bonovich said:


> The monthly fee has been pretty much the most consistant thing about DirecTV since day #1.
> 
> Even when we had to pay $1k for the HR10-250 (to own it)... we still had to pay the monthly fee for the extra receiver.


The lease fee is fine. I'd end up saving money by deactivating my HD receiver and my two SD receivers that are on the MCE machine. I just want to avoid a new contract.


----------



## LoopinFool

Earl Bonovich said:


> _So note: This is my educated guess on the price:_ ~$150. Reason being... this unit is inbetween a H20/21 and a HR20/21.


Earl,

I agree with you about the price. That sounds like what it's _worth to the customers_. I don't agree with you about it being between an HD receiver and an HDDVR.
The unit has no analog video circuitry/connectors. It has no expensive HDMI driver chip and connector. It is a much smaller unit. It does _nothing_ without being hooked up to a media center PC. In function and cost to produce (ignoring quantity discounts) it's less than an H20/21. Those quantity discounts are a big thing, and the fact is, the customer base (note the posts in this thread) seem willing to pay more.
However, it sounds like a dual ATSC tuner is something like $50 and doesn't require a $5/mo fee and expensive monthly programming charge. I don't think this box should cost a _whole lot_ more than that. It also sounds like the release date is too far out for them to talk price yet.

- LoopinFool


----------



## LoopinFool

For those who know more about the Windows Media Center system...

Can you even transcode DRM content to really small files for portable devices? I'd love to be able to simply transfer some 320x240 MPEG4 videos to my PDA from a media center system. It's too much of a pain now to capture the SD output of the DVR and encode stuff for "walking around".
It seems to me a format like that wouldn't get the content providers upset. Heck, they even allow downconverting to something like DVD-quality on component outputs from protected HD sources.
If they want to protect the content even more, they (MS) should be able to manage some per-unit DRM with a small limit (like 4 devices). That would allow an honest user to take content with them on some laptops, PDAs and phones but not upload to YouTube.
What's the big deal, and do they already support this?

- LoopinFool


----------



## jeonunh

LoopinFool said:


> Earl,
> 
> I agree with you about the price. That sounds like what it's _worth to the customers_. I don't agree with you about it being between an HD receiver and an HDDVR.
> The unit has no analog video circuitry/connectors. It has no expensive HDMI driver chip and connector. It is a much smaller unit. It does _nothing_ without being hooked up to a media center PC. In function and cost to produce (ignoring quantity discounts) it's less than an H20/21. Those quantity discounts are a big thing, and the fact is, the customer base (note the posts in this thread) seem willing to pay more.
> However, it sounds like a dual ATSC tuner is something like $50 and doesn't require a $5/mo fee and expensive monthly programming charge. I don't think this box should cost a _whole lot_ more than that. It also sounds like the release date is too far out for them to talk price yet.
> 
> - LoopinFool


It will all depend on how D* does their cost accounting on the thing. Imagine they spent about $3million on development, $2million setting up a production line, and the unit cost is about $100 to build with the somewhat limited production run. Assuming they sell 10,000 units, the cost to D* per unit is $600. I'm sure there are more costs involved with support, distribution, advertising etc. Obviously they can't charge more than the market will support, but they will charge as much as they can in order to recoup their costs. Personally, with 3 years of development, I bet the costs are much higher than I estimated.


----------



## mva5580

Do you think MS lined their pockets a bit though in helping with the development costs of this considering it's (apparently) only going to work with Windows Vista?


----------



## jeonunh

mva5580 said:


> Do you think MS lined their pockets a bit though in helping with the development costs of this considering it's (apparently) only going to work with Windows Vista?


I'd say there is no doubt there. This thing pretty much competes with some of D*'s own products, so the only real motivation to make them would be financial support from MS. This would also strengthen the arguement that it won't work on Mac, Linux, Sagetv, etc. I doubt they gave enough money to offset the manufacturing costs though.


----------



## fletch259

Did anyone else wonder where the access card is going to go in this thing? I didn't see any slot in the pics.


----------



## phat78boy

fletch259 said:


> Did anyone else wonder where the access card is going to go in this thing? I didn't see any slot in the pics.


Looks like there is a cover hiding it on the bottom front.


----------



## bakerfall

fletch259 said:


> Did anyone else wonder where the access card is going to go in this thing? I didn't see any slot in the pics.


The access card functionality is built in, that was mentioned pretty early on.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bakerfall said:


> The access card functionality is built in, I don't believe there is actually a card, that was mentioned pretty early on.


Yes there is...

Front side of the unit..
Bottom segment... that door, is the access panel door.

The Access Card is one of the reasons why it is an external device.


----------



## mva5580

Man every time I look at that image, I have to wipe the drool off my chin. 

Those freaking jerk-asses at DirecTV are probably in their fancy lab right now, testing it, watching HD channels on PC's, and so on. 

Stop being so selfish and release it to the public! We have the customer service # at the ready, waiting to place the order.


----------



## Bushwacr

jeonunh said:


> I'd say there is no doubt there. This thing pretty much competes with some of D*'s own products, so the only real motivation to make them would be financial support from MS. This would also strengthen the arguement that it won't work on Mac, Linux, Sagetv, etc. I doubt they gave enough money to offset the manufacturing costs though.


I would think the major NEW market for a tuner type device would have been the MACs, BTV and Myth/Sage and even TIVO type folks keep asking for it on their boards. I use BTV and hoped to put this type of device next to the OTA tuner, but I guess not. It's kinda weird this really seems to be a variant of the HR2x except I provide the big hardware dollars and they give me a tuner for a monthly fee.

Oh well my joy was short lived.


----------



## ShapeGSX

jeonunh said:


> I'd say there is no doubt there. This thing pretty much competes with some of D*'s own products


Their own products that they sell for a loss.


----------



## jeonunh

Bushwacr said:


> I would think the major NEW market for a tuner type device would have been the MACs, BTV and Myth/Sage and even TIVO type folks keep asking for it on their boards. I use BTV and hoped to put this type of device next to the OTA tuner, but I guess not. It's kinda weird this really seems to be a variant of the HR2x except I provide the big hardware dollars and they give me a tuner for a monthly fee.
> 
> Oh well my joy was short lived.


It would certainly be more widely adopted if it was open to other platforms, but with Microsoft working with them on development it won't happen. I'm sure MS is trying to use this device to pull people away from the competition. MS is also the only partner that can maintain a relatively closed system to protect the content. DRM makes my head hurt, but I don't really mind it since I don't really do anything but watch my tv. I don't archive or share anything. I can see where some people are upset about not being able to sync it to their portable devices though.


----------



## bakerfall

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes there is...
> 
> Front side of the unit..
> Bottom segment... that door, is the access panel door.
> 
> The Access Card is one of the reasons why it is an external device.


thanks, corrected. I remembered someone saying something about there being problems putting the card inside, I guess that meant inside a PC not inside the device


----------



## dbears

I've probably poured through 2/3rds of this discussion. I was at the CES a couple year's back when they first announced the potential for this. I was an early Vista adopter in anticipation of this device and I don't think anyone is more excited than I am. Here's my question and I apologize if it's been asked and answered.

If you are using extenders, aren't you still limited to tuning and watching only one show at a time or can you have this device playing one station on the main PC and different stations on the extenders? How do current extenders work when you have more than one tuner in the Vista HTPC? Current HD DVR's on directv will only allow you to view one station at a time, even though there are two tuners. How will this work so we can view different channels throught extenders throughout the house?

Thanks,

Mike (Da Bears)


----------



## jeonunh

dbears said:


> I've probably poured through 2/3rds of this discussion. I was at the CES a couple year's back when they first announced the potential for this. I was an early Vista adopter in anticipation of this device and I don't think anyone is more excited than I am. Here's my question and I apologize if it's been asked and answered.
> 
> If you are using extenders, aren't you still limited to tuning and watching only one show at a time or can you have this device playing one station on the main PC and different stations on the extenders? How do current extenders work when you have more than one tuner in the Vista HTPC? Current HD DVR's on directv will only allow you to view one station at a time, even though there are two tuners. How will this work so we can view different channels throught extenders throughout the house?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mike (Da Bears)


You can watch different channels on the extender. Sometimes all the tuners will be in use (1 recording, 1 watchin tv on the main pc) and the extender will just ask you which tuner you want to use (which will stop the recording, or change the channel on the main pc) I have 4 tuners setup on my system, so I don't run into it too much.


----------



## dbears

Thanks for the quick response. Directv only let's you view one station at a time, (no dual outputs). I understand that's why they only charge for one access card. I wonder if they'll have a similar limit here. In any event, I'm drooling in anticipation. Watching high def content today through an s-video connection on media center is not very gratifying. I've moved all my DVD's to hard drives so Vista media center can handle that. Directv high definition content will complete the package and make vista media center my entertainment hub. Congratulations Directv and Microsoft.

Mike (Da Bears)


----------



## jeonunh

dbears said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Directv only let's you view one station at a time, (no dual outputs). I understand that's why they only charge for one access card. I wonder if they'll have a similar limit here. In any event, I'm drooling in anticipation. Watching high def content today through an s-video connection on media center is not very gratifying. I've moved all my DVD's to hard drives so Vista media center can handle that. Directv high definition content will complete the package and make vista media center my entertainment hub. Congratulations Directv and Microsoft.
> 
> Mike (Da Bears)


I'm sure the current limitation is because they make the box intending it to be married to a single tv. I doubt they would make a limit like that on this device. They may, however, decide to charge a $9.99 instead of $4.99 since you can watch two stations at once, but that would probably upset the people that don't have extenders, so they would likely avoid it.


----------



## bakerfall

jeonunh said:


> I'm sure the current limitation is because they make the box intending it to be married to a single tv. I doubt they would make a limit like that on this device. They may, however, decide to charge a $9.99 instead of $4.99 since you can watch two stations at once, but that would probably upset the people that don't have extenders, so they would likely avoid it.


I would doubt that. You can use two tuners at once, you just can't watch two different channels on two different tv's at once, which is a limitation of the box.


----------



## jeonunh

bakerfall said:


> I would doubt that. You can use two tuners at once, you just can't watch two different channels on two different tv's at once, which is a limitation of the box.


That's kinda what I was trying to say... Thanks


----------



## Everyperson

Any way to use this on a Mac? Must it just use Windows Vista?


----------



## jodavis

I wonder if D* has given any thought as to how much this is going to cost them in lease/mirror fees. I dont want to discourage this product but I for one will make this my only receiver they will be minus about $20 a month. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this but this will be an opportunity for me to go to a whole house system with only media center extenders in each room where I have a tv.


----------



## P Smith

I wouldn't bet on that - there are _many_ DVB-S PCI cards with CI slot on same board or on add-on card.
Also, if you remember, Broadlogic did develop such cards for D* and E* in 1997; if you forgot, I'll post models: ABA-1020, ABA-1030 ...



Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes there is...
> 
> Front side of the unit..
> Bottom segment... that door, is the access panel door.
> 
> *The Access Card is one of the reasons why it is an external device*.


----------



## jeonunh

Everyperson said:


> Any way to use this on a Mac? Must it just use Windows Vista?


Short answer, just Vista. Long answer, Microsoft has laid out some serious dough working with D* on this, and I doubt very seriously that there isn't an exclusive deal in place for that cooperation.


----------



## jeonunh

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't bet on that - there are _many_ DVB-S PCI cards with CI slot on same board or on add-on card.
> Also, if you remember, Broadlogic did develop such cards for D* and E* in 1997; if you forgot, I'll post models: ABA-1020, ABA-1030 ...


 I would prefer the external box anyway. I'm sure the interferrence issues they claimed to have were made up though. I'm sure they wanted to have the option to lease the box, and they don't want to answer support calls from people trying to install pci cards that don't even know how to set the clock on a microwave. There is also the issue of people with small form factor pc's that they keep near the tv that wouldn't have room. Just makes more sense to make it external and have just one version out there.


----------



## sgibson

dbears said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Directv only let's you view one station at a time, (no dual outputs). I understand that's why they only charge for one access card. I wonder if they'll have a similar limit here. In any event, I'm drooling in anticipation. Watching high def content today through an s-video connection on media center is not very gratifying. I've moved all my DVD's to hard drives so Vista media center can handle that. Directv high definition content will complete the package and make vista media center my entertainment hub. Congratulations Directv and Microsoft.
> 
> Mike (Da Bears)


Hope you don't mind if I jump in here with a wish list:

Directv HDPC 20 Wish List:

A little history from my viewpoint:

A few years ago, there was some discussion about Directv and Microsoft providing a pc hookup.That was back when I had UTV with Microsoft, keyboard and MSN online via ethernet on UTV. Well, the talks died

down and then Microsoft entered discussions with cable companies, and the cable card appeared, then there was/is talk about cable card pc plugin (somebody correct me if I'm wrong.) for Media Center 2004. All

the while I was able to view/record the UTV on my Windows98 pc via Hauppauge tuner card's s-video/2ch stereo input. When Windows MCE 2005 was released, I took the plunge and hooked up my Samsung HD Directv

receiver via s-video and 2ch stereo. I didn't care for the MCE record feature or MS's dr.. record format. I upgrade my pc tv tuner to the ATI HD, (what a bugger that was to get going).Later I traded the ATI

for a Avermedia HD pc A180 tuner card and it was a lot more user friendly. I preferred the Avermedia Windows XP Video program over the MCE TV program. I now have a HDCP Nvidia8800GT and HDCP monitor and

projector, but can only display s-video and 2ch out from Directv/Tivo HR10-250 thru my htpc. So, what I would really like to see is the ability to input/record HD and (at least) 5.1 DD. to my pcs hard drive

( I know, you can xfer stuff via ethernet) If the HDPC20 can output 1080/5.1 thru USB connection (The Xbox360 played it from the Xbox add-on HD DVD player) then I welcome it, and look forward to it's

release. If there are HDCP restrictions that down-rez the audio/video, then I'll pass. Sorry for the long-winded post.

sgibson


----------



## ToddD

Everyperson said:


> Any way to use this on a Mac? Must it just use Windows Vista?


An Intel Mac? If so It might run under VMWare Fusion or Parallels using a Vista VM as long as you are doing your viewing from a TV with a Extender.....Trying to watch the Video on the Mac desktop would not be so good. (As long as it is truly NOT only an OEM Product like the Cable Card systems are.)


----------



## ChrisL01

Going though some of what I have seen in the past few pages...

For those who think it will work with just Vista SP1, realize that the tuners are not even out for beta testing and yet again SP1 is a Service Pack and not a feature release. Don't expect it to work with just Vista SP1. You will be waiting for a new Media Center release.

CableCARD in Vista requires HDCP for digital connections. VGA and Component can also be used without issues. I'd expect the same for D*.

If the recordings are protected (and they will be), you will be able to "backup" the recordings onto DVD's. This however will be a Data DVD, not Video DVD. It will only playback on the PC you recorded the content on, not on another PC or standard DVD player.

Protected recordings can not currently be transcoded or put on portable devices.

As for DRM crippling stuff, it can be done. However, there has nothing been stopping PC software from limiting output resolution pre-Vista. Hell, Macrovision anyone? Don't get to caught up in it. The tuner will work, it will have similar restrictions as CableCARD in terms of content protection and output (HDCP for digital connections, DRM on files prevents putting on P2P, etc). It will be no more restrictive than an HR20 which you can't do anything with the recorded content.

The tuner is not likely to work on a Mac, Linux, etc unless hacked.

My understanding is that the tuner is not a D* STB, sticky a tuner. Media Center on the PC will act as the "OS" for the tuner. The EPG, controlling the tuner, etc is all done via Media Center. Even if the tuner is "hacked" to work on other OSs, it would need a pretty sophisticated software layer to even work. It is not just outputting video over USB, there is a lot more to it.

As others have noted there is nothing from stopping Microsoft from support x number of tuners. It already works, Microsoft would just need to make chances to the UI so users can setup x tuners. Conflict resolution in Media Center might also need an update for it to nicely work.

$150 seems on the low end for a dual tuner in my opinion.

I wouldn't expect it to work on the Xbox 360 directly, but keep dreaming there are screenshots of a D* blade on the Dashboard (though, my guess is that is for sharing content from the HR20 to the Xbox 360 Dashboard).

Mediaroom is sticky IPTV, that's the product. Before it was called Mediaroom, it was called Microsoft Foundation IPTV Edition. If the D* tuner was ever to work directly with the Xbox 360 Dashboard, Mediaroom would have zero to do with it.

Chris


----------



## looter

If I can't get one for a Mac, can I at least get my HR21 to stop sorting The Daily Show under 'T'? Now that would be high-tech!


----------



## Tom Robertson

DIRECTV won't support the Mac for the HDPC-20. That said, just like we see with Mediashare, some enterprising people might find away to legally support a protected data stream for the Macfrom the HDPC-20.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Oh man, the HDPC can't come out soon enough! I wish I am currently in a coma and will wake up as soon as the HDPC's are out! :lol:


----------



## P Smith

"$150 seems on the low end for a dual tuner in my opinion."

Well, it is NOT dual tuner full device like H20; rather pure two sat-tuners board. So, the price should be around $50...70.


----------



## Tom Robertson

All depends upon how much decoding and possibly re-encoding DIRECTV has to do in there to maintain DRM while feeding all this to Media Center.


----------



## P Smith

Will wait for first tear-down report.


----------



## Shunopoli

Waiting for some reports. Hopefully soon trying to decide if I should just by a regular tuner in the mean time


----------



## ChrisL01

P Smith said:


> "$150 seems on the low end for a dual tuner in my opinion."
> 
> Well, it is NOT dual tuner full device like H20; rather pure two sat-tuners board. So, the price should be around $50...70.


You might want to do a bit of research of current NTSC, ATSC, and CableCARD offerings before assuming that.

Chris


----------



## smicale

tony4d said:


> Well, on paper and in pictures this thing rocks. Now I just gotta wait for 2G windows home server that includes media center server. Plug 2 of these in there and I have a sweet dvr system for the house.


Does WHS really have a feature for Media Center Server? I never heard anything on this. Is it a add-on?


----------



## digitalfreak

This was just posted by Ian (who works in the eHome group at Microsoft) on The Green Button forums:



> ARG!
> 
> I was just told by the team responsible for the DirecTV tuner solution:
> 
> "Right now we're not prepared to talk about this to any level of detail. "
> 
> That means what it means. I'm sorry to have that be the message at this time. You've seen the flyer leak. The hardware exists. It is working, I've seen it. There's a lot going on business-wise such that we (as in MSFT) are not prepared to announce or discuss things yet.
> 
> This is very frustrating for those working on the project. They've done some very cool work and really want to show it off. It's like when you get someone the perfect xmass gift and you cannot wait for them to open it. It's like that.
> 
> Total speculation on my part: if I had to guess the next place this would likely to be shown off and offically demoed would be NAB 08. I repeat: I have no actual information about this other than this being the next logical public venue for MSFT and DirecTV to showcase this technology. My $.02.
> 
> -Ian


Looks like the information spicket has been turned off. Unless D* decides to release more information, what Earl and the other CES guys posted is all we're going to get for awhile.


----------



## Luke_Y

ChrisL01 said:


> ...I wouldn't expect it to work on the Xbox 360 directly, but keep dreaming there are screenshots of a D* blade on the Dashboard (though, my guess is that is for sharing content from the HR20 to the Xbox 360 Dashboard)...
> 
> Chris


Slightly OT from the HDPC20 but...

I was wondering about this. With the open cooperation between MS and D* on this, and MRV supposedly just around the corner... Do we think it's likely that a 360 on your network will be able to be the "other room" in MRV without a D* box at that location?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't bet on that - there are _many_ DVB-S PCI cards with CI slot on same board or on add-on card.
> Also, if you remember, Broadlogic did develop such cards for D* and E* in 1997; if you forgot, I'll post models: ABA-1020, ABA-1030 ...


It isn't a "technical" reason...
But more of a logistic.

What if you have to tell the customer to pull the access card and replace it?
What if you have to try and just reseat it for some reason?
Unless you want to go to a TWO port slot... where are you going to put 2 f-connectors, and the access card slot?

So... while I know you are very familiar with all the different types of technology.... not everything is a technical limitation.

And I said it was only 1 of the reasons...

Some of the others...

How would you use an internal card with a laptop? 
Do you want an installer to come by and install a card inside your media center?

What bus style do you go with for the Internal? PCI? PCI-Express? Something else?

And so on....

But hey... what do I know... ?


----------



## BudShark

Earl Bonovich said:


> But hey... what do I know... ?


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

jeonunh said:


> It would certainly be more widely adopted if it was open to other platforms, but with Microsoft working with them on development it won't happen. I'm sure MS is trying to use this device to pull people away from the competition. *MS is also the only partner that can maintain a relatively closed system to protect the content.* DRM makes my head hurt, but I don't really mind it since I don't really do anything but watch my tv. I don't archive or share anything. I can see where some people are upset about not being able to sync it to their portable devices though.


How about Apple? 



jeonunh said:


> Short answer, just Vista. Long answer, *Microsoft has laid out some serious dough working with D* on this*, and I doubt very seriously that there isn't an exclusive deal in place for that cooperation.


Do you have any proof of this, or are you just speculating?



ChrisL01 said:


> For those who think it will work with just Vista SP1, realize that the tuners are not even out for beta testing and yet again SP1 is a Service Pack and not a feature release. Don't expect it to work with just Vista SP1. You will be waiting for a new Media Center release.


Based on what? Is there some feature in a new MC release that they require?



> Protected recordings can not currently be transcoded or put on portable devices.


This is because of DRM limitations, right? Couldn't they allow you to sync the content with one portable media player? I thought that was already allowed with earlier PMP's.



> As others have noted there is nothing from stopping Microsoft from support x number of tuners.


V1 products generally focus on getting the basic stuff right for the common use cases. Stuff that goes beyond that often has to get cut because there's just not enough time. I wouldn't be surprised if supporting multiple boxes didn't make the first cut.



Earl Bonovich said:


> It isn't a "technical" reason...
> But more of a logistic.
> 
> How would you use an internal card with a laptop?


My Dell laptop has an integrated smartcard reader right above the PCMCIA slot.


----------



## P Smith

ChrisL01 said:


> You might want to do a bit of research of current NTSC, ATSC, and CableCARD offerings before assuming that.
> 
> Chris


Excluding CableCard models, I had tested many of them, so the price range has been procured accordingly.


----------



## P Smith

OverThereTooMuch said:


> <...>
> My Dell laptop has an integrated smartcard reader right above the PCMCIA slot.


Yeah, right ! I forgot about those Dell Lattitude NB. Good point.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

OverThereTooMuch said:


> My Dell laptop has an integrated smartcard reader right above the PCMCIA slot.


Mine does too... but I highly doubt... DirecTV is going to start allowing commerical SMARTCARD readers to start reading/understanding their ACCESS cards...

But not all laptops have that... (Like my wifes Windows Media Laptop, and the two most recent VISTA laptops that I have been involved with the purchases on)

Most are business models (that I have seen), with the intended purpose being secure logins


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

Earl Bonovich said:


> Mine does too... but I highly doubt... DirecTV is going to start allowing commerical SMARTCARD readers to start reading/understanding their ACCESS cards...
> 
> But not all laptops have that... (Like my wifes Windows Media Laptop, and the two most recent VISTA laptops that I have been involved with the purchases on)
> 
> Most are business models (that I have seen), with the intended purpose being secure logins


IIRC from an old DTV lawsuit, the same devices that read smartcards are the ones that can also read access cards. It's all a matter of the software to access what's on the card. Seems likely that you could have a driver that is capable of reading both card formats.



Code:


If it's DTV format
  Do this stuff
else if it's a smartcard
  do this other stuff
else tell the user they put the card in upside down again :)

I was just pointing out that this sort of device did exist, so they do have an option of putting a tuner in a laptop.


----------



## P Smith

There are a lot of possible ways to solve it ... I don't see any technical issue to use USB device, or PCMCIA card reader or RS232 type .


----------



## ChrisL01

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Based on what? Is there some feature in a new MC release that they require?


Yeah. In-band EPG data from sat doesn't exist in the current form, SBE engine update if H.264 in involved, and countless other things. Vista doesn't include the needed software to make the D* tuner work no matter what everyone else in this thread has said.

Again, Service Pack's are just that. A collection of hotfixes and other vital patches. A Media Center feature release will be needed to support new products. A SP is not a feature release, trust me.



OverThereTooMuch said:


> This is because of DRM limitations, right? Couldn't they allow you to sync the content with one portable media player? I thought that was already allowed with earlier PMP's.


No PMP (Microsoft based or not) has supported syncing of this type of protected content. Part of it "could" be a DRM limitation (though, it is not hard to protect transcoded originally protected content) and the other part would be that you are making a second generation copy (which is a no can do much of the time b/c of content owners)



OverThereTooMuch said:


> V1 products generally focus on getting the basic stuff right for the common use cases. Stuff that goes beyond that often has to get cut because there's just not enough time. I wouldn't be surprised if supporting multiple boxes didn't make the first cut.


Good software dev mind, but Media Center isn't a "v1 product". It has been shipping for nearly five years and multiple tuners have been supported for at least 3.5 of that. Add to that nothing is stopping you from using x tuners now, a well documented registry change is all you need.

The D* tuner might be a v1 product, but having Media Center support x tuners is not. The type of tuner makes no difference in the long run.

Chris


----------



## ChrisL01

P Smith said:


> Excluding CableCard models, I had tested many of them, so the price range has been procured accordingly.


Which dual tuner card did you test that is $50-70 and did it work for more than a week before it died?  BTW, CableCARD tuners retail for just about $300 each and are single tuner.

Chris


----------



## Earl Bonovich

OverThereTooMuch said:


> IIRC from an old DTV lawsuit, the same devices that read smartcards are the ones that can also read access cards. It's all a matter of the software to access what's on the card. Seems likely that you could have a driver that is capable of reading both card formats.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> If it's DTV format
> Do this stuff
> else if it's a smartcard
> do this other stuff
> else tell the user they put the card in upside down again :)
> 
> I was just pointing out that this sort of device did exist, so they do have an option of putting a tuner in a laptop.


Oh they could... but the tuner would still have to be a USB device... or a PCMIA with a dongle for the F-Connectors


----------



## Earl Bonovich

P Smith said:


> There are a lot of possible ways to solve it ... I don't see any technical issue to use USB device, or PCMCIA card reader or RS232 type .


There are countless ways probably...
But which one one method will work with the largest number of systems... and be a solution that the average user will/can do?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ChrisL01 said:


> A SP is not a feature release, trust me.


No SP ever includes any new features?
None of them? 

This particula VISTA SP, may not include any new features in it however....


----------



## ChrisL01

Not like these features, security upgrades and additions (notability XP SP2) and such are a bit different and are not separate products as Media Center is.

Chris


----------



## jeffreycentex

I would say that the support for this would come in a rollup package, not a service pack nor a complete update ala Fiji. Think back to the Media Center Update Rollup 1 for XP. This added HD support. That wasn't the next version of media center (at the time)...


----------



## ChrisL01

jeffreycentex said:


> I would say that the support for this would come in a rollup package, not a service pack nor a complete update ala Fiji. Think back to the Media Center Update Rollup 1 for XP. This added HD support. That wasn't the next version of media center (at the time)...


FYI. Media Center 2005 was released in Oct 12, 2004. Update Rollup 1 for Media Center 2005 was released Oct 15, 2004 meaning three days after the feature release.

If you look at Update Rollup 2 for Media Center 2005 (Oct 13, 2005), it was release instead of a feature release (Vista was being worked on instead).

There hasn't been a full feature release for Media Center since Vista RTM'ed well over a year ago. They are due for a feature release. 

BTW, notice the months of all the previous releases of Media Center. v1 shipped Oct 2002. MCE 2004 shipped Sep 30, 2003. MCE 2005 shipped Oct 2004. MCE 2005 UR2 shipped Oct 2005. Vista shipped (RTM) Nov 2006. Wild guess, a Media Center release might come around Oct-Dec 2008.

Chris


----------



## Earl Bonovich

And the end of the day...

Right now... from what we know:

1) DirecTV is basically ready with their piece...
2) Microsoft is getting there, but is not willing to reveal the full details yet
3) Both #1 and #2 have to be completely ready to go... for this to become a reality

So what does that mean...
There is still plenty of time, until we all have to do our upgrades to our PC's to be ready for this product....

But hopefully the fact that DirecTV has shown this product...
Microsoft is not denying they are working on the software....

That this is not a "vaporware" situation... this will be a product... one that a lot of people (including me), would have like to have had yesterday... but one that we want to work when we do get it.


----------



## Groundhog45

Ok, the question I haven't seen asked yet. Will the new AM21 plug into the HDPC20 or the VMC system that runs it all? It would be nice to have all of the pieces from the same manufacturer/developer.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Groundhog45 said:


> Ok, the question I haven't seen asked yet. Will the new AM21 plug into the HDPC20 or the VMC system that runs it all? It would be nice to have all of the pieces from the same manufacturer/developer.


It will not plug into the HDPC20...
There are dozens (if not more), ATSC solutions for the Home Media Centers.


----------



## P Smith

I'm very pessimistic about _the_ product; history of it is full of promises, but so far from 1997 we have nothing.

And again it is niche product, so I wouldn't expect involving full blown resources from both companies what exactly heading the product up to vaporware status.


----------



## xtc

Looks very cool, but if this thing requires Vista, i have no interest in it no matter how fantastic this product is. Vista is 100% **** and I stay as far away from it as possible. Any product that puts the whole "requires Vista" label on it, has lost my business...


----------



## phat78boy

xtc said:


> Looks very cool, but if this thing requires Vista, i have no interest in it no matter how fantastic this product is. Vista is 100% **** and I stay as far away from it as possible. Any product that puts the whole "requires Vista" label on it, has lost my business...


Those are very shortsighted comments. Vista is a very good OS, but its default coniguration is not very good. Once tweaked to your liking, Vista is among the best OS's out there.

I believe it will run very good on Vista, especially with MCE.


----------



## xtc

phat78boy said:


> Those are very shortsighted comments. Vista is a very good OS, but its default coniguration is not very good. Once tweaked to your liking, Vista is among the best OS's out there.
> 
> I believe it will run very good on Vista, especially with MCE.


That is preposterous. an OS is not supposed to be tweaked by the consumer, that is the job of Microsoft before they release the product. It either runs smoothly or it doesn't. And vista is anything but smooth. It is completely full of annoyances everywhere you look. It is hardly compatible with any software or hardware that came before it and it is also an unbelievable resource hog and defeats the purpose of having a system with lots of speed and memory because it takes up virtually all of it. When i was in the market for a computer last year, I did a lot of research and found nothing but horror stories about Vista. However, I found a computer with incredible specs, the best I've seen - speed, memory HD space, Core 2 Quad, etc.. However, it had Vista on it. I told myself, what the hell... with these specs, I'll just have to get used to Vista. So I bit the bullet and bought it. The computer itself, fantastic. And I couldnt wait to return it because Vista was the biggest piece of garbage I had ever seen. I was ready to throw it out the window. Luckily I was able to find a computer with similar specs, but with XP. So i got that instead. Best decision Ever. Microsoft should be completely ashamed of themselves for releasing this crap on the public and forcing it down our throats. The vast majority agrees that Vista is crap, the only people that dont mind it are usually those that know nothing about computers and just thinks it looks pretty. Vista has gotten so many complaints everywhere, that it has forced Dell to offer XP computers once again due to an overwhelming demand by the public.

So as long as this or any other product requires Vista, I don't want that product. I'll just have to wait and see how badly Microsoft messes up their next OS, or maybe pigs will fly and they will actually listen to their consumers telling them at how bad they did with this one and try to improve their future Operating Systems. Although that sounds like it is asking to much of them. These are the same people that brought us Internet Explorer...:sure:


----------



## phat78boy

xtc said:


> That is preposterous. an OS is not supposed to be tweaked by the consumer, that is the job of Microsoft before they release the product. It either runs smoothly or it doesn't. And vista is anything but smooth. It is completely full of annoyances everywhere you look. It is hardly compatible with any software or hardware that came before it and it is also an unbelievable resource hog and defeats the purpose of having a system with lots of speed and memory because it takes up virtually all of it. When i was in the market for a computer last year, I did a lot of research and found nothing but horror stories about Vista. However, I found a computer with incredible specs, the best I've seen - speed, memory HD space, Core 2 Quad, etc.. However, it had Vista on it. I told myself, what the hell... with these specs, I'll just have to get used to Vista. So I bit the bullet and bought it. The computer itself, fantastic. And I couldnt wait to return it because Vista was the biggest piece of garbage I had ever seen. I was ready to throw it out the window. Luckily I was able to find a computer with similar specs, but with XP. So i got that instead. Best decision Ever. Microsoft should be completely ashamed of themselves for releasing this crap on the public and forcing it down our throats. The vast majority agrees that Vista is crap, the only people that dont mind it are usually those that know nothing about computers and just thinks it looks pretty. Vista has gotten so many complaints everywhere, that it has forced Dell to offer XP computers once again due to an overwhelming demand by the public.
> 
> So as long as this or any other product requires Vista, I don't want that product. I'll just have to wait and see how badly Microsoft messes up their next OS, or maybe pigs will fly and they will actually listen to their consumers telling them at how bad they did with this one and try to improve their future Operating Systems. Although that sounds like it is asking to much of them. These are the same people that brought us Internet Explorer...:sure:


I'm not sure I have ever seen an OS that didn't run better after being tweaked by someone who what they were doing. Some work out of box better then others, but they all can be further enhanced. People who didn't fully understand Vista complained. Closest I can compare it to is going from a Microsoft machine to an Apple or vice versa. Of course there will be complaints. That said, MCE is a very good program and the extender options work wonderfully. You should really give it a try before condeming them.


----------



## xtc

phat78boy said:



> I'm not sure I have ever seen an OS that didn't run better after being tweaked by someone who what they were doing. Some work out of box better then others, but they all can be further enhanced. People who didn't fully understand Vista complained. Closest I can compare it to is going from a Microsoft machine to an Apple or vice versa. Of course there will be complaints. That said, MCE is a very good program and the extender options work wonderfully. You should really give it a try before condeming them.


Media Center is great, never said a bad thing about it. Vista is the Problem. I have XP media Center edition and I like it. Vista itself is the problem.

There are complaints, and then there COMPLAINTS like the ones Vista has rightfully gotten. When all is said and done and we look back on Vista years and years from now and many Operating systems later, it will be looked as an absolute and total technological failure.


----------



## phat78boy

xtc said:


> Media Center is great, never said a bad thing about it. Vista is the Problem. I have XP media Center edition and I like it. Vista itself is the problem.
> 
> There are complaints, and then there COMPLAINTS like the ones Vista has rightfully gotten. When all is said and done and we look back on Vista years and years from now and many Operating systems later, it will be looked as an absolute and total technological failure.


90+ percent of all complaints are about system resources, prompts they don't understand, and incompatable drivers. These are all user issues to me. I have not had one of these issues.

Trying to use a scanner from 10 years ago that only had drivers for XP is not Microsofts problem. Yet users think it is cause it worked with XP. The prompts can be easily turned off. The system resources can be greatly reduced by not using the "extras" that need them. Like areo or the gadget sidebar for example. These are all easy things that were implemented to try to better secure the machine and give you multiple extras to enhance your computing. I do not think it was a failure, I think the education about it was a failure.

As stated in this thread, its most likely a Visa requirement because of the DRM issues. All in all, I'm sure it will be a very good product... hopefully really soon.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok, this thread really isn't about Vista and Media Center in comparison to other OS/media solutions. Please, lets return to the topic.

:backtotop

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## xtc

phat78boy said:


> As stated in this thread, its most likely a Visa requirement because of the DRM issues. All in all, I'm sure it will be a very good product... hopefully really soon.


Which is another reason not to get this product. DRM is the Devil. It was obvious that DirecTV would come out with something like this.


----------



## phat78boy

xtc said:


> Which is another reason not to get this product. DRM is the Devil. It was obvious that DirecTV would come out with something like this.


I'm fairly certian some type of DRM would be a requirement for a product like this. DirecTV most likely is complying with broadcaster requirements so they can provide this solution for which a lot of us have been waiting for.


----------



## Tom Robertson

In today's market, if DIRECTV released a product that didn't protect the copyright holders and the content p'roviders' interests, DIRECTV would not get any more content to distribute in any form.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## xtc

phat78boy said:


> I'm fairly certian some type of DRM would be a requirement for a product like this. DirecTV most likely is complying with broadcaster requirements so they can provide this solution for which a lot of us have been waiting for.


I understand that they are complying, but that doesn't mean it's an attraction to the consumer. It's just another bullet point of why someone would NOT want to get this. Ask mp3 player owners how much they like DRM.

If this was XP compatible without DRM restrictions and the end result would be .avi, .wmv, .mpg files, etc. then this would be a much more attractive product. Whether it's DirecTV's intention or fault is not is not relevant, what is relevant is the final product and as attractive as it sounds initially, when you start looking deeper into this product and see it's faults and drawbacks it's not as great as it first seems in my opinion.


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

ChrisL01 said:


> Again, Service Pack's are just that. A collection of hotfixes and other vital patches. A Media Center feature release will be needed to support new products. A SP is not a feature release, trust me.


I'm not saying that any of THESE features will be in SP1, but features do go into service packs quite often actually.



> No PMP (Microsoft based or not) has supported syncing of this type of protected content. Part of it "could" be a DRM limitation (though, it is not hard to protect transcoded originally protected content) and the other part would be that you are making a second generation copy (which is a no can do much of the time b/c of content owners)


Thanks for that info. Guess that's one good reason why the PMP's weren't really that popular  Hopefully now that most music companies have come around on DRM, the video content providers will back off on some of these restrictions as well.



> The D* tuner might be a v1 product, but having Media Center support x tuners is not. The type of tuner makes no difference in the long run.


Sure it does. There's a new driver for this device. And I thought you said none of the satellite tuner software existed in current releases, so that would also have to be tested for multiple tuners.



Earl Bonovich said:


> But hopefully the fact that DirecTV has shown this product...
> Microsoft is not denying they are working on the software....


Actually, it's better than that. Someone from Microsoft has CONFIRMED that they are working on it.

But like any software project, they could at some point decide to scrap it all and never release anything. Hopefully that won't happen, but there are a lot of gaps that still need to be filled in with solid details. Hopefully things will become clearer in the next few months.

So Earl, where did this flyer come from? Were they on display at the DTV booth, or were they only handing them out to press people?


----------



## BarkingGhost

The whole idea and interest to me, which has been a long time in coming, is to simply achieve an immense amount of dis space for recording shows to. Why DirecTV didn't simply build a DVR with, say, four external ports for additional hard drives is beyond me.

In fact, this approach seems like the path of most resistance instead of least. I would have been just as happy to plug into four $90 500GB eSATA drives and be done with it. This isn't so much a knock on DirecTV as it is a knock on the industry at large.

There isn't a single content distributor that allows for four or more external storage devices to be plugged in. Some allow the swapping of a disk by external means (using eSATA or USB2.0), but there are others not offering anything (e.g. Comcast's Motorola DVR).

But, DirecTV had the opportunity to simply utilize an ability to either span a storage volume across multiple disks, or simply allow the DVR operating environment to store recording on multiple independent devices.

How many would be interested in an HR21-700x with four eSATA ports? :allthumbs


----------



## jelockwood

ChrisL01 said:


> Going though some of what I have seen in the past few pages...
> 
> CableCARD in Vista requires HDCP for digital connections. VGA and Component can also be used without issues. I'd expect the same for D*.
> 
> ...
> 
> The tuner is not likely to work on a Mac, Linux, etc unless hacked.
> 
> My understanding is that the tuner is not a D* STB, sticky a tuner. Media Center on the PC will act as the "OS" for the tuner. The EPG, controlling the tuner, etc is all done via Media Center. Even if the tuner is "hacked" to work on other OSs, it would need a pretty sophisticated software layer to even work. It is not just outputting video over USB, there is a lot more to it.
> Chris


From a hardware point of view this HDPC-20 is not as big a revolution as a lot of people here think, except for one thing, that being that it contains two tuners both of which can use a single viewing card (meaning one subscription).

Here in Europe we have been using PC (or Mac) based DVB-S and DVB-S2 tuners for some time.

For example 
www technotrend com/2780/TT-connect__S2-3650_CI.html
this is an external USB tuner that supports DVB-S and DVB-S2 just like the HDPC-20 and it also supports using a CAM and a viewing card and therefore could potentially be used with DirecTV.

For example
www digital-everywhere com/en/alcms/index.php?sid=1187859689
www digital-everywhere com/en/alcms/index.php?sid=1190324464
these are either internal or external FireWire connected DVB-S/DVB-S2 tuners that again support a CAM and viewing card. Here in Europe these are already being used in Media Center to access (unofficially) Sky a sister company to DirecTV. Sky and DirecTV use the same NDS encryption system.

There is a Mac version of the previous external model above see 
www elgato com/elgato/int/mainmenu/products/tuner/310/product1.en.html

Note: Currently you cannot view HD channels in Media Center this way because they are in H.264 format which Media Center does not yet support. People are currently using DVBViewer to access these.

There are also several other internal PCI cards but their drivers currently leave something to be desired. Microsoft will with the forthcoming 'Fiji' update be officially supporting DVB-S and DVB-S2 tuners and then these other cards may (should) work a lot better.

Furthermore there are dual tuner USB and PCI DVB-T (terrestrial) devices available which do work both in Media Center and on Macs (proving that dual tuner DVB type devices can be done).

Since the HDPC-20 hardware is not exceptional (except in being a dual tuner DVB-S/DVB-S2 device) it would potentially be straight forward for it to be supported on a Mac. All that would be required is a suitable driver. However I see very little chance of DirecTV (or Sky) being interested in this. This is partly due to the smaller Mac market, and more importantly I suspect because of the fact that Macs unlike Windows Vista are not riddled with user hostile DRM. If it was to be done it would likely be by Elgato working with them. Elgato do sell to both the US and Europe, for example they recently did a Mac driver for the US only HDHomeRun see
www elgato com/elgato/na/mainmenu/products/HDHomeRun/product1.en.html


----------



## DrZaiusATL

It will be interesting to see if the unit has all the ports enabled.....hahaha!


----------



## ToddD

DrZaiusATL said:


> It will be interesting to see if the unit has all the ports enabled.....hahaha!


As it only has :

USB Type A
USB TypeB
Power 
Network

what will they not enable?


----------



## jeonunh

ToddD said:


> As it only has :
> 
> USB Type A
> USB TypeB
> Power
> Network
> 
> what will they not enable?


I think the ports in question are the extra USB and network ports. The brochure only mentions needing to hook up the coax and usb port, which means the other ports may not have a use. The cable card devices had extra ports at this stage in development that weren't on the final units. I think the extra usb is there for thumb drive firmare updates, and the network might be for future VOD rollout, but it's all speculation at this point.


----------



## ChrisL01

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Sure it does. There's a new driver for this device. And I thought you said none of the satellite tuner software existed in current releases, so that would also have to be tested for multiple tuners.


The type of tuner really doesn't matter, it will likely use a common interface. As long as the driver supports multiple cards on the same system (which it should, USB generally doesn't have that issue), multiple tuners will work. Microsoft didn't test every ATSC and NTSC tuner before "enabling" dual tuner support within Media Center. The tuners confirm to standards, and assuming they do (and the drivers are not pure crap) it works within Media Center.

The big question is will Microsoft finally add the UI changes needed to make this happen from a consumer standpoint?



jelockwood said:


> From a hardware point of view this HDPC-20 is not as big a revolution as a lot of people here think, except for one thing, that being that it contains two tuners both of which can use a single viewing card (meaning one subscription).


Yeah, I'm talking from a software standpoint where there are major changes that need to take place. The H.264 support you speak about would be a key example.

Chris


----------



## Stanley Kritzik

Earl Bonovich said:


> The official information about the HDPC-20
> 
> *Product Brochure*
> Front
> Back


So, will it handle OTA channels or just D* satellite signals?

Stan


----------



## ToddD

jeonunh said:


> I think the ports in question are the extra USB and network ports. The brochure only mentions needing to hook up the coax and usb port, which means the other ports may not have a use. The cable card devices had extra ports at this stage in development that weren't on the final units. I think the extra usb is there for thumb drive firmare updates, and the network might be for future VOD rollout, but it's all speculation at this point.


As per the the Network port...Note that there is no phone jack and as we are seeing in the HR2X world they seem to be moving to a IP phone home system and yes VOD.


----------



## jeonunh

Stanley Kritzik said:


> So, will it handle OTA channels or just D* satellite signals?
> 
> Stan


Just D* channels


----------



## ToddD

Stanley Kritzik said:


> So, will it handle OTA channels or just D* satellite signals?
> 
> Stan


I'd say just DirecTV ...you could do the OTA in Media Center with a OTA tuner.


----------



## Bushwacr

xtc said:


> Looks very cool, but if this thing requires Vista, i have no interest in it no matter how fantastic this product is. Vista is 100% **** and I stay as far away from it as possible. Any product that puts the whole "requires Vista" label on it, has lost my business...


+1 on this

I'll happily pay D whatever they want but not at the expense of downgrading my systems. There will be other alternatives at some point; the market for them always drives them.


----------



## rgreenpc

I respect that some people hate Vista, I personally use it on all my machines.

I have had no problems with it, the only time I ever see UAC is when I install something and to be honest it doesn't bother me.

As far as DRM, I perosnally don't care how much DRM is on it, as long as it works as reported (allowing me to watch the shows around the house) then I am all for it.

I respect the rights of the movie companies to not want me making copies and throwing them on my Ipod, etc... I don't like it, but they do have rights to their property. I also think that short of movies (HBO,PPV, etc) that there won't be any issues with most shows, I take OTA HD shows I record on my VMC box onto my Ipod now all the time and watch them.


----------



## ladderless

Bushwacr said:


> +1 on this
> 
> I'll happily pay D whatever they want but not at the expense of downgrading my systems. There will be other alternatives at some point; the market for them always drives them.


I don't like to see this get sidetracked on OS talk, but I don't see this EVER being made for XP. Let's face it... Four or five years from now you will probably not be using XP. Either Vista will morph into something you will tolerate (As I remember from "The Andromeda Strain" - A successful virus will cause no fatal harm to its host, or it's doomed to perish, too), or the next Windows OS will come out.

The core functions of Vista are required for this system. They are not available in XP, and I'm not sure why they would ever be made.

I believe that they (D* and MS) are looking at the big, long-term picture. This picture doesn't involve seven year old OS's that are on the verge of elimination.


----------



## Luke_Y

With regard to the needed software- update, SP, New version of MCE, whatever.

Why couldn't it just come on a CD in the HDPC20 box?

The only people who will "need" the updated software are those with the D* tuner, so just throw it in the box...


----------



## ChrisL01

The software update isn't done, whether is comes in the box with the tuner or not is the least of anyone's worries.

Chris


----------



## hasan

ladderless said:


> I don't like to see this get sidetracked on OS talk, but I don't see this EVER being made for XP. Let's face it... Four or five years from now you will probably not be using XP. Either Vista will morph into something you will tolerate (As I remember from "The Andromeda Strain" - A successful virus will cause no fatal harm to its host, or it's doomed to perish, too), or the next Windows OS will come out.
> 
> The core functions of Vista are required for this system. They are not available in XP, and I'm not sure why they would ever be made.
> 
> I believe that they (D* and MS) are looking at the big, long-term picture. This picture doesn't involve seven year old OS's that are on the verge of elimination.


MS finally gets XP to a state where it can be relied on, and it is summarily dismissed as a 7 year old obsolete OS. I agree Vista will get there, but it seems like a bloated resource hog at this point. None of this has anything to do with the new D* product. I don't expect them to commit resources to an "end of cycle" OS (in their eyes). I just don't share anyone's enthusiasm about MS early offerings in an OS. Nothing has changed since Win 3.1...when a new OS surfaces, it tends to be pretty crappy. (XP was better than most). By the time things get well straightened out, we get another kludge...the cycle is tiring.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

We have been begging for this for years.

I can't wait to get my hands on one!

- Craig


----------



## mcdubjr

I can understand people not wanting to use Vista as their primary computer. However, if you just run it as a dedicated media server then Vista will be solid. Vista's problems are due to older software or hardware. 

What I would do is use a 2nd computer and not install any extra programs on it. I feel that if you really want to have a reliable DVR you can't expect to be able to treat it like a desktop.


----------



## 456521

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, this thread really isn't about Vista and Media Center in comparison to other OS/media solutions. Please, lets return to the topic.
> 
> :backtotop
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


Did anybody read this message?


----------



## jeonunh

mcdubjr said:


> I can understand people not wanting to use Vista as their primary computer. However, if you just run it as a dedicated media server then Vista will be solid. Vista's problems are due to older software or hardware.
> 
> What I would do is use a 2nd computer and not install any extra programs on it. I feel that if you really want to have a reliable DVR you can't expect to be able to treat it like a desktop.


I agree, my HTPC is in the basement and doesn't do anything but run MCE and serve up media from the raid. I have another desktop to handle all my other work/gaming needs.


----------



## jodavis

mcdubjr said:


> I can understand people not wanting to use Vista as their primary computer. However, if you just run it as a dedicated media server then Vista will be solid. Vista's problems are due to older software or hardware.
> 
> What I would do is use a 2nd computer and not install any extra programs on it. I feel that if you really want to have a reliable DVR you can't expect to be able to treat it like a desktop.


I want an OS that can do both. There is no reason with the latest hardware that a single computer can't be both the main desktop in the house and the central media server. My plan is to add an HDPC to a new main desktop I will buy and then run extenders at each of my TV's (probably 360's because then I can play video games on them too.) If Vista is not stable doing both applications simultaneously then I wont be very happy.


----------



## jeonunh

jodavis said:


> I want an OS that can do both. There is no reason with the latest hardware that a single computer can't be both the main desktop in the house and the central media server. My plan is to add an HDCP to a new main desktop I will buy and then run extenders at each of my TV's (probably 360's because then I can play video games on them too.) If Vista is not stable doing both applications simultaneously then I wont be very happy.


You're probably justified in wanting the ability to do both, but I think through no fault of MS that third party software like games and such can tax a system to much to be doing both. I just got the game Crysis and I can tell you that it completely bogs down my system by itself. The other good thing about a dedicated system is that if you use only extenders you can have an older system as the server since it won't do any of the decoding work.


----------



## Luke_Y

> With regard to the needed software- update, SP, New version of MCE, whatever.
> 
> Why couldn't it just come on a CD in the HDPC20 box?
> 
> The only people who will "need" the updated software are those with the D* tuner, so just throw it in the box...





ChrisL01 said:


> The software update isn't done, whether is comes in the box with the tuner or not is the least of anyone's worries.
> 
> Chris


I agree, I was just pointing this out, as every 5th post or so seems to be discussion on whether vista will require an update, SP, or new version. Some of them basically just arguing back and forth on the issue.

No one seemed to consider that they could just put the software on CD and throw it in the box.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Luke_Y said:


> I agree, I was just pointing this out, as every 5th post or so seems to be discussion on whether vista will require an update, SP, or new version. Some of them basically just arguing back and forth on the issue.
> 
> No one seemed to consider that they could just put the software on CD and throw it in the box.


Or... DirecTV can start their production and their packaging... while Microsoft continues with the software development.

Then when it is ready to go... the 99.9999% of the poeple implementing this can download it via their internet connection in a few minutes....

No different then when Media Services on the HR20 were ready to go.... they offered the ViiV media server (and then all the other 3rd party ones), out there via download.

They still don't offer a media server on a CD as part of the install of the HR20/21

So yes... they "could" include the software in the packaging, and may ultimately do that when the software and hardware has been out for a while. But in the early release days... next to ZERO chance that the software will be included in the DirecTV hardware box.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Now thinking about it...

They could also include a mini FLASH USB drive that unit, and have the software already on it... so when you connect, it installs....
(Similar to how some of the ATSC USB devices store their software on the unit itself)


And let it be part of the firmware updates for the unit, so you immediately get software updates via SAT, when the firmware for the unit gets updated.


----------



## jeonunh

Luke_Y said:


> I agree, I was just pointing this out, as every 5th post or so seems to be discussion on whether vista will require an update, SP, or new version. Some of them basically just arguing back and forth on the issue.
> 
> No one seemed to consider that they could just put the software on CD and throw it in the box.


I think I made that point somewhere. May have been on TGB. I thought of it like the CD that came with my Sony DVD changer. It added all sorts of functionality that wasn't built into MCE 2005 without needing a new version of Media Center. The software is now built into Vista so the cd isn't needed. I don't see why the same couldn't be done here to avoid waiting for Fiji.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Those that frequent The Green Button...
Who over there would be "my" equivilent....

I would like to touch base with him/her and start to build a relationship that will be key when this product is actually released to market.


----------



## Shunopoli

Earl thats a good question there are so many talented people of the at the green button its hard to single out anyone. The one that I believe that has helped me the most in understanding the cable card fiasco and other issues is Chris Lanier he has tons of knowledge in a lot of things.


----------



## wkearney99

It's likely the ethernet port could be used to allow viewing from multiple devices. Like from a PC with a client program on it. Or for integration with the Hughes internet service. It'd certainly be an interesting combination to have both features in one box.

But given it's dependency on Vista it seems like too little, too late and carrying far too much baggage. The hassles of getting Vista integrated into anything other than the most simplistic of home theatre setups are too great. That and combined with the digital rights copy protection nonsense it's nearly impossible to get everything working properly, let along reliably over time.

But I'm in the process of ditching DirecTV anyway. I've just had FIOS TV installed and it's great. The picture quality is EXCELLENT. I've done side-by-side comparisons using PIP on my plasma display and they're quite similar. FIOS has the added edge of several dozen local channels too. Granted, local gov't TV isn't terribly compelling, but at least it's available. Nothing like that from DirecTV. And best of all I get to keep using a Tivo for it. DirecTV really screwed themselves ditching Tivo. So it's GOODBYE to DirecTV.


----------



## ChrisL01

Luke_Y said:


> I agree, I was just pointing this out, as every 5th post or so seems to be discussion on whether vista will require an update, SP, or new version. Some of them basically just arguing back and forth on the issue.
> 
> No one seemed to consider that they could just put the software on CD and throw it in the box.


The Media Center update (Fiji) will be on Windows Update along with the Microsoft Download Center. Depending on when D* wants to try to package and ship the tuners would likely depend on what kind of software (if any) they include in the box.

The question in this has mainly been will Vista SP1 add functionality for the tuner to work. I say no, others are either saying yes and/or arguing about the difference between a feature release and a Service Pack.



jeonunh said:


> I think I made that point somewhere. May have been on TGB. I thought of it like the CD that came with my Sony DVD changer. It added all sorts of functionality that wasn't built into MCE 2005 without needing a new version of Media Center. The software is now built into Vista so the cd isn't needed. I don't see why the same couldn't be done here to avoid waiting for Fiji.


That was actually a third party Sony plug-in for mass CD ripping. The software for the DVD Changer (eg. the My DVD's library function) was a part of Update Rollup 2 (a "major" Media Center release).

The main reason that I believe you will be waiting for Fiji (other then it's a feature release) is that Media Center will undergo huge changes on the backend for this tuner to work. D* can't do this stuff alone, 90% of it involves changes within Media Center.

Microsoft adds _very few_ things to Media Center outside of feature releases.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Those that frequent The Green Button...
> Who over there would be "my" equivilent....
> 
> I would like to touch base with him/her and start to build a relationship that will be key when this product is actually released to market.


I'd vote that person as me.  Feel free to PM me or shoot me an e-mail.

Chris Lanier


----------



## ChrisL01

Also, some other food for thought for those not familiar with Media Center. Fiji, the Media Center will start private beta testing soon. Microsoft has been planning it for a long time, offered invites online to the beta and nothing yet (but it is coming).

This tuner (mainly the software side) will likely need a large amount of beta testing before it ships. Just to give you an idea, OCURs (CableCARD tuners) were out for beta testing for a long time (don't remember the exact time frame, but 7-10 months would be a good guess) and they still shipped with tons of problems. Bad CableCARDs, poor QA on the ATI tuners themselves, CableCARDs are flaky, installers didn't know what to do with them, firmware issues with the tuners, etc.

D* doesn't have to deal with all the above, but those interested in buying this are going to wait it to be beta tested before they drop the cash for the tuner or a new PC. I really don't think D* wants to be grouped with CableCARD for failure to work, and Microsoft doesn't want another CableCARD fiasco to happen.

Chris


----------



## jodavis

D* Could put any neccessary software in the SAT stream.


----------



## bakerfall

jodavis said:


> D* Could put any neccessary software in the SAT stream.


Not for Windows, which wouldn't be able to get the data if it didn't recognize the tuner because there wasn't any software


----------



## archer75

mcdubjr said:


> I can understand people not wanting to use Vista as their primary computer. However, if you just run it as a dedicated media server then Vista will be solid. Vista's problems are due to older software or hardware.
> 
> What I would do is use a 2nd computer and not install any extra programs on it. I feel that if you really want to have a reliable DVR you can't expect to be able to treat it like a desktop.


I have Vista 32bit installed on my HTPC. I have it setup so I can play any video format out there, all from media center with my remote. I can also record to OTA HD programs at once.

I use Vista x64 on my desktop. It's rock solid. Never crashes. It's also fast. I do everything on it.

The key with Vista is getting good drivers. The OS itself is solid but unfortunately you are stuck waiting on the hardware manufacterers to get out good drivers. 
The same thing happened when XP was released. New drivers were required and it took time for hardware vendors to learn the new OS and write quality drivers. We also had a fraction of the hardware then that we do now. Much less to support.
It's not as much of a resource hog as people think. What's really going on is superfetch. Vista learns your computing habits and as such gets faster over time, the more you use it. A month after I installed Vista I would say it was almost twice as fast as when I first installed it.
Superfetch will cache your commonly used apps/games to ram when that ram is idle. Those programs will launch faster. 
When the ram is needed by a program it is instantly released to it.

With quality drivers Vista is fast and stable. On both my computers it has proven to be very reliable. Nvidia drivers are still lagging behind. Intel and ATI drivers are rock solid. ATI video cards can actually improve frame rates in Vista over XP. A recent review of the 8800GT in maximum PC confirms this, as does my own experience with my ATI card.

People forget what it was like when XP launched. You were waiting on drivers and apps to be upgraded. Same thing. 
Drivers are not a microsoft thing, they are up to the hardware vendors to provide. Some apps need updates. It's a new OS, same was true for XP and the same is true for OS X Leopard. It's just been so long since a new MS OS has shipped we've forgotten about the XP and what changes would be required from hardware vendors.

People complain about the DRM. Really the only difference between Vista and XP in that department is the support in Vista for protected HD-DVD and Blu Ray discs. This is not a microsoft thing. This is an MPAA thing. They put the DRM on the discs and it's up to whatever plays those discs to comply. Same is true of your set top player and your TV. Both will support HDCP or the content could be down rezzed. Same holds true if you are using component cables instead of HDMI.
Well that same thing is in Vista. If you want to play a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray movie that is protected and the policy asks for a protected video path then that is the ONLY time you will ever interact with this DRM support in Vista. And all it does is ensure the source and display are HDCP compliant, same as your set top box.

If you never play protected HD content where the policy asks for this check you will never know the DRM is there. You can also play ripped, cracked HD-DVD and Blu-Ray all day long with no issues.

It's likely that Apple will announce Blu-Ray support and drives at Macworld and you will see the exact same DRM support patched into Leopard.


----------



## Shunopoli

Hey chris do you how one would get on that beta when it becomes available do you think it will be available via microsoft connect


----------



## mjones73

jodavis said:


> D* Could put any neccessary software in the SAT stream.


How are you supposed to get it from the sat stream to an executable you can install on a PC?


----------



## Goodwin

jkast said:


> Thanks for the information, Earl. Any chance you could re-digitize the brochure at about 4 times the resolution so we could read it?


The image at this web site is a little sharper:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/directvs-pc-tuner-is-real/

Update

bakerfall,

On my monitor the text was much more legible in the referenced site, but I copied the images from Earl's post to editing software and printed them. They were very good in the printout.


----------



## ChrisL01

jodavis said:


> D* Could put any neccessary software in the SAT stream.


Edit: I see lots of people got this while I was tpying.

I don't see what that would do. The PC would need a driver to communicate with the tuner in the first, so D* can't put the driver in the sat stream because the driver has to do their before the tuner is active.

Add to that, even if the driver was included in the box you would still need Media Center to be able to communicate with the tuner before it would find the sat's. Without a software update to Media Center first (via the Internet or CD) that can't happen.

It should also be noted that Media Center requires an active Internet connection to setup a TV signal. This is mainly because EPG data is currently delivered via a download, but I'm not sure if Microsoft is going to remove that just so you can setup the D* tuner (this setup comes before the tuner signal setup).

Chris


----------



## bakerfall

Goodwin said:


> The image at this web site is a little sharper:
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/directvs-pc-tuner-is-real/


That's the same image resized.

Just download the image that Earl posted and open it with an imaging software and zoom in/out till your heart's content.


----------



## ChrisL01

Shunopoli said:


> Hey chris do you how one would get on that beta when it becomes available do you think it will be available via microsoft connect


It will be on Connect, but it likely to be a private beta (not public) so unless you are invited you don't get it. Sign up's for the beta ended already.

Chris


----------



## bakerfall

ChrisL01 said:


> It will be on Connect, but it likely to be a private beta (not public) so unless you are invited you don't get it. Sign up's for the beta ended already.
> 
> Chris


Those sign ups were a while ago, right? I remember signing up months ago.


----------



## ChrisL01

Yeah, if you signed up you have a chance of getting an e-mail saying your in. It still hasn't started, despite the invite survey being out nearly a year ago.

Chris


----------



## jodavis

mjones73 said:


> How are you supposed to get it from the sat stream to an executable you can install on a PC?


Store it on a chip in the box like Earl was saying. He actually proposed this at the end of his post I just didn't read far enough before replying. OOPS Also I'd like to be the first to volunteer to beta this thing. (OK probably not the first)-HA HA. But seriously I do all the CE releases on the HR20 and I already have one older machine to try it on and I just ordered a brand new Dell to use as a dedicated media center PC so now I dont have to worry about running out of resources because it wont be on my main desktop anymore (I love my wife-she said I could have a new computer with my year end bonus from work).


----------



## jdmac29

I have hp vista home ed media center pc with a hauppage win tv hvr 1600mc model 1101 tuner card intstalled. I have the digital tuner connected to my over the air antenna and I use windows media center program guide. I wonder if Microsoft and Directv will be able to incorporate the guide from that tuner card to the HDPC20 GUIDE similar to what they are doing with the AM21 and the HR21? 
I am kinda excited about this new toy and I could get an xbox 360 extender to stream directv content to any tv in my house. Any thoughts from the experts?


----------



## jeonunh

jdmac29 said:


> I have hp vista home ed media center pc with a hauppage win tv hvr 1600mc model 1101 tuner card intstalled. I have the digital tuner connected to my over the air antenna and I use windows media center program guide. I wonder if Microsoft and Directv will be able to incorporate the guide from that tuner card to the HDPC20 GUIDE similar to what they are doing with the AM21 and the HR21?
> I am kinda excited about this new toy and I could get an xbox 360 extender to stream directv content to any tv in my house. Any thoughts from the experts?


I think I'm following what you're saying. The guide data for the hdpc20 is going to come from the satelite, but it will be shown in the Media Center format just like you see now from your OTA tuner. I'm sure the two different guides will merge just like they do now for people with both cable and OTA channels to make one master guide. So in short, you're covered!


----------



## jdmac29

jeonunh said:


> I think I'm following what you're saying. The guide data for the hdpc20 is going to come from the satelite, but it will be shown in the Media Center format just like you see now from your OTA tuner. I'm sure the two different guides will merge just like they do now for people with both cable and OTA channels to make one master guide. So in short, you're covered!


Thanks for the reply, I hope it work. I would love to be a beta tester for this or hopefully this will not be that expensive since it does not include hard drives or ota tuners.


----------



## ToddD

ChrisL01 said:


> It will be on Connect, but it likely to be a private beta (not public) so unless you are invited you don't get it. Sign up's for the beta ended already.
> 
> Chris


Sign ups for the beta end on the 16th.....I can nominate people as can anyone who was invited.

Not to be difficult here but please don't' message me or PM me asking me to nominate you....Sorry but I'm not going to do that for anyone who I don't know and can vouch that they would be a great tester.

It should be noted that these betas are under Non disclosure...once the beta starts no one in it can discuss it in any way.


----------



## Shunopoli

Todd I wish I new you a little better but I understand your logic on not sending it out to be you dont know. I would be a good tester but you dont know that. So i understand


----------



## ToddD

jodavis said:


> Store it on a chip in the box like Earl was saying. He actually proposed this at the end of his post I just didn't read far enough before replying. OOPS Also I'd like to be the first to volunteer to beta this thing. (OK probably not the first)-HA HA. But seriously I do all the CE releases on the HR20 and I already have one older machine to try it on and I just ordered a brand new Dell to use as a dedicated media center PC so now I dont have to worry about running out of resources because it wont be on my main desktop anymore (I love my wife-she said I could have a new computer with my year end bonus from work).


If all your looking for is a Media Center Tuner Driver...just include a CD in the Box.

By the way not to pop your bubble or anything. but believe me you would not be the first to volunteer to beta test this ....I and others made clear we would do that YEARS ago


----------



## ToddD

Shunopoli said:


> Todd I wish I new you a little better but I understand your logic on not sending it out to be you dont know. I would be a good tester but you dont know that. So i understand


if you have a connect account I'd look around and see if there is not a way to nominate yourself like there is on most programs but I think this one is by invitation only. 
I wish I could send a nomination in for the whole DBSTALK site but sadly that is not allowed....Microsoft is getting a bit pickier about who tests and the quality of what they get....I have worked so hard for so many years to have the reputation that I have with them that sadly I have to protect it even when I'd like to see us all have access.


----------



## Shunopoli

I understand completely lets get back to the topic at hand


----------



## jeonunh

I just want to be clear, I signed up for the beta program back in April. Are you saying the invitations have been sent out now? I thought I read that the beta hasn't started yet.


----------



## Richard Miller

jeonunh said:



> I just want to be clear, I signed up for the beta program back in April. Are you saying the invitations have been sent out now? I thought I read that the beta hasn't started yet.


Correct the Media Center beta has not started yet.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

For those intrested:

The Green Button corresponding thread to this:
http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/38/234882/ShowThread.aspx


----------



## tharron

bakerfall said:


> No, it absolutely will not work this way. 100% no.
> 
> the 360 is a Media Center extender, not a Media Center. It has no guide, therefore no way to know what's on or what to record, not to mention does not have the capability of recording. This is all done by the PC and simply replayed by the 360.
> 
> This isn't going to reinvent the wheel, it's simply going to add D* tuners to MCE. That's it.


Aaaaaaaaaand.. XBox 360 as a front end to Microsoft IPTV which is already being deployed makes it a what?


----------



## Xzisted

bakerfall said:


> Oh god, you didn't run the upgrade, did you? I did that once and it totally f'd my computer.
> 
> You can do a clean install with the upgrade CD, you just need to have an XP CD as well. Do that, I guarantee you it will be better.


Correction: You can do a full install with JUST the Vista CD. You just have to install twice and on the first install skip entering the installation code. It will install vista then you launch the installer again once you are logged in. Then it creates a Windows.old directory and does a clean install. Works very nicely.


----------



## ShapeGSX

tharron said:


> Aaaaaaaaaand.. XBox 360 as a front end to Microsoft IPTV which is already being deployed makes it a what?


A Microsoft Media Room set top box. Not a DirecTV box.


----------



## grizzly

Earl:

I thought I looked thoroughly but didn't see this....did DTV give you any indication on pricing?

Thx, 

Kevin


----------



## Earl Bonovich

grizzly said:


> Earl:
> 
> I thought I looked thoroughly but didn't see this....did DTV give you any indication on pricing?
> 
> Thx,
> 
> Kevin


No they did not...

The best i could gather is that it is going to be priced somewhere betwen an H21 and HR21... but that is just an educated guess on my part.


----------



## davidjplatt

phat78boy said:


> Using MCE you can setup the recordings and also view on your PC. My thought is for purely using this "standalone" once recordings are "on it". This could be done if storage was able to be added directly to the device.


The recordings are "on it". They are on the PC not on the HDPC-20. Also, one of the replies stated that the LAN port was not on the final product that will be shipped.

This is a tuner folks - it doesn't store anything, it doesn't have a Core2Duo processor in it or a Dual Core AMD 64 processor in it.

And these comments about encoding, decoding and transcoding - this device tunes the proper satellite channel, decrypts the DirecTV signal and feeds it to Media Center. That's it.


----------



## JayB

xtc said:


> Which is another reason not to get this product. DRM is the Devil. It was obvious that DirecTV would come out with something like this.


While in a general sense I agree that DRM is bad (I won't, for example, by DRMed ebooks or music), in this particular case, I don't think I care. Unlike books and music, TV, for me, isn't something I need to be portable and in my house it's a completely transient thing - I watch the show once and then delete it. I suspect that the majority of folks are the same way. Granted, there are folks that want to archive stuff (one of the guys I work with, for example, always archives his Ultimate Figher PPVs to DVD), but I think they're in the minority. So, given that, for myself and many others the DRM here just won't be an issue.


----------



## ShapeGSX

xtc said:


> Which is another reason not to get this product. DRM is the Devil. It was obvious that DirecTV would come out with something like this.


It is actually much more lenient DRM than the DRM in the HR20.


----------



## Luke_Y

ShapeGSX said:


> It is actually much more lenient DRM than the DRM in the HR20.


That's part of what I don't get with the DRM complaints.

I have to figure that most of the complaints about the DRM stuff come from those who are not current D* DVR users. I guess that however they get their TV entertainment now they are used to being able to rip it, burn it, transfer it, or whatever.

While those who are current D* DVR subscribers and are interested in this for the consolidation of media and recording, the MC Expander possibilities, and such. The DRM stuff isn't that big of deal to that crowd. After all I can't make my own HDDVD or BD of a movie I have on my D* DVR now, I can't dump it onto my iPod or PSP, why would I expect to do that with the HDPC20? Why would I need to make a DVD? I should be able to watch it on any TV/Computer in my house with a D* DVR or MC Extender.

Anyway if it comes out soon, and I can't wait for it, I will likely buy/build a dedicated Vista MCE computer for my TV viewing (we use MACs for personal computing). If any D* boxes I have at the time will function as "extenders" for that content, I will keep them. If not there would be a 360 or MC Extender at all the other TV locations. If I could add or hack additional tuners onto the MC then I would likely add 2 HDPC20s. I would also consider adding another VistaMCE and HDPC20 for the dedicated Home Theater, or a very large media server HDD array to serve up the whole house and theater.


----------



## Luke_Y

For you Vista MCE folks; How many streams of HD recordings can a system serve up at a time to Extenders before choking? Or should I be more worried about network bandwidth (assuming a wired network)?

Also, assuming the ability to hack on additional tuners, how many live streams can it serve up?


----------



## BudShark

ShapeGSX said:


> It is actually much more lenient DRM than the DRM in the HR20.





Luke_Y said:


> That's part of what I don't get with the DRM complaints.
> 
> I have to figure that most of the complaints about the DRM stuff come from those who are not current D* DVR users. I guess that however they get their TV entertainment now they are used to being able to rip it, burn it, transfer it, or whatever.
> 
> While those who are current D* DVR subscribers and are interested in this for the consolidation of media and recording, the MC Expander possibilities, and such. The DRM stuff isn't that big of deal to that crowd. After all I can't make my own HDDVD or BD of a movie I have on my D* DVR now, I can't dump it onto my iPod or PSP, why would I expect to do that with the HDPC20? Why would I need to make a DVD? I should be able to watch it on any TV/Computer in my house with a D* DVR or MC Extender.
> 
> Anyway if it comes out soon, and I can't wait for it, I will likely buy/build a dedicated Vista MCE computer for my TV viewing (we use MACs for personal computing). If any D* boxes I have at the time will function as "extenders" for that content, I will keep them. If not there would be a 360 or MC Extender at all the other TV locations. If I could add or hack additional tuners onto the MC then I would likely add 2 HDPC20s. I would also consider adding another VistaMCE and HDPC20 for the dedicated Home Theater, or a very large media server HDD array to serve up the whole house and theater.


Thank you both. It was about time somebody brought this up and pointed it out in a clear and concise manner!

Lets keep it focused on the device, its individual capabilties, and extended capabilities through extenders.

I'm still curious as to what components are in the device (which will tell us long term capabiltiies) - as well as the decoding requirements/etc. This will give us some indication as to the potential testing/beta (i.e. DirecTV has to give the hardware and MSFT has the software so who owns the beta process...) and when we might start seeing these. For example, If Xbox decoding of H.264 streams from media center is needed and not there (which if I remember correctly from earlier posts, it isn't) - a good indication we are getting closer would be an Xbox release that includes this.

Chris


----------



## bhelton71

Luke_Y said:


> That's part of what I don't get with the DRM complaints.
> 
> I have to figure that most of the complaints about the DRM stuff come from those who are not current D* DVR users. I guess that however they get their TV entertainment now they are used to being able to rip it, burn it, transfer it, or whatever.
> 
> While those who are current D* DVR subscribers and are interested in this for the consolidation of media and recording, the MC Expander possibilities, and such. The DRM stuff isn't that big of deal to that crowd. After all I can't make my own HDDVD or BD of a movie I have on my D* DVR now, I can't dump it onto my iPod or PSP, why would I expect to do that with the HDPC20? Why would I need to make a DVD? I should be able to watch it on any TV/Computer in my house with a D* DVR or MC Extender.
> 
> Anyway if it comes out soon, and I can't wait for it, I will likely buy/build a dedicated Vista MCE computer for my TV viewing (we use MACs for personal computing). If any D* boxes I have at the time will function as "extenders" for that content, I will keep them. If not there would be a 360 or MC Extender at all the other TV locations. If I could add or hack additional tuners onto the MC then I would likely add 2 HDPC20s. I would also consider adding another VistaMCE and HDPC20 for the dedicated Home Theater, or a very large media server HDD array to serve up the whole house and theater.


Actually you can dump content from the HR2x - its just 480i. I think the real question is really will the HDPC20 still allow you to make analog copies for use on portable devices (like ipod as an example) ? Its obvious you probably will not get access to the digital stream - but will you still be able to get the down-rez'd content from your pc ?

And maybe it wouldn't right off the bat - but I'd think if this is really targetted at MCE - then why would Microsoft not choose to additionally integrate it with the Zune devices ?


----------



## ChrisL01

Luke_Y said:


> For you Vista MCE folks; How many streams of HD recordings can a system serve up at a time to Extenders before choking? Or should I be more worried about network bandwidth (assuming a wired network)?
> 
> Also, assuming the ability to hack on additional tuners, how many live streams can it serve up?


Media Center supports up to five Extenders connected to the PC at once. Assuming your network has the bandwidth, you can stream out five HD streams all at once. A 100Mbit network should do this just fine. If you are using wireless, 802.11n is a must and even then I wouldn't expect five HD streams at once.



bhelton71 said:


> Actually you can dump content from the HR2x - its just 480i. I think the real question is really will the HDPC20 still allow you to make analog copies for use on portable devices (like ipod as an example) ? Its obvious you probably will not get access to the digital stream - but will you still be able to get the down-rez'd content from your pc ?
> 
> And maybe it wouldn't right off the bat - but I'd think if this is really targetted at MCE - then why would Microsoft not choose to additionally integrate it with the Zune devices ?


Based on the photos in the scans, there is no standalone analog tuner, so everything is digital.

Microsoft would surely love to, but that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. The content owners and D* are the two who matter (mainly content owners).

Chris


----------



## bakerfall

bhelton71 said:


> Actually you can dump content from the HR2x - its just 480i. I think the real question is really will the HDPC20 still allow you to make analog copies for use on portable devices (like ipod as an example) ? Its obvious you probably will not get access to the digital stream - but will you still be able to get the down-rez'd content from your pc ?
> 
> And maybe it wouldn't right off the bat - but I'd think if this is really targetted at MCE - then why would Microsoft not choose to additionally integrate it with the Zune devices ?


The only way to "dump" content from the HR-20 is to record it on a DVD or VHS. There is nothing stopping you from doing the same thing with this. Just hook your 360, PC or other extender, to a DVD burner and record it.


----------



## bhelton71

bakerfall said:


> The only way to "dump" content from the HR-20 is to record it on a DVD or VHS. There is nothing stopping you from doing the same thing with this. Just hook your 360, PC or other extender, to a DVD burner and record it.


Then I can't think of any DRM issues ??? As long as you can continue to do what you can do with a stand alone box (using down rez content) I can't think of any complaints.


----------



## bakerfall

bhelton71 said:


> Then I can't think of any DRM issues ??? As long as you can continue to do what you can do with a stand alone box (using down rez content) I can't think of any complaints.


The complaint is you can't do with DRM'd content what you can with recordings using an OTA tuner.

There are tools that allow you to automatically remove commercials, reencode as any number of file formats and resolutions and it can all be scripted. You could automatically reencode files for use with your iPod, reencode and archive with different file formats. There is a lot you can do right through your computer with non-DRM'd recordings.

Not to mention the fact that to record in the manner which was described, you are looking at a.) loss of resolution and thus quality and b.) you have to actually record real time as you watch it. If you can just take the files, reencode and burn, it would be a hell of a lot quicker than that.


----------



## ladderless

Luke_Y said:


> That's part of what I don't get with the DRM complaints.
> 
> While those who are current D* DVR subscribers and are interested in this for the consolidation of media and recording, the MC Expander possibilities, and such. The DRM stuff isn't that big of deal to that crowd. After all I can't make my own HDDVD or BD of a movie I have on my D* DVR now, I can't dump it onto my iPod or PSP, why would I expect to do that with the HDPC20? Why would I need to make a DVD? I should be able to watch it on any TV/Computer in my house with a D* DVR or MC Extender.


I guess that I see a new crowd emerging... The portable one. With each new technological leap, there are new possibilities. It's frustrating to some people when new technology leaps don't give a nod to other, recent technologies.

I can see some dismay from people who are now loading content onto portable systems, only to discover they won't be able to do that with a product that is being developed now.

Otherwise, it's like me saying that I don't understand why remote programming of the DVR is important... You can still stand next to the DVR and program it like you always did. Let's ignore the possibility of new possibilities.

New technology gives new options... Let's see synergy between them to expand our choices geometrically. That's all.


----------



## bakerfall

ladderless said:


> I guess that I see a new crowd emerging... The portable one. With each new technological leap, there are new possibilities. It's frustrating to some people when new technology leaps don't give a nod to other, recent technologies.
> 
> I can see some dismay from people who are now loading content onto portable systems, only to discover they won't be able to do that with a product that is being developed now.
> 
> Otherwise, it's like me saying that I don't understand why remote programming of the DVR is important... You can still stand next to the DVR and program it like you always did. Let's ignore the possibility of new possibilities.
> 
> New technology gives new options... Let's see synergy between them to expand our choices geometrically. That's all.


It's not just portable devices, it's other PC's. The way the Cable Card DRM works, you can't even do that. I want to be able to take a recording and throw it on my laptop, iPod, anything I want. The way I look at it, it's my content and I should be able to do with it as I please. The "fear" is that it makes it easier to put on the web, but that's a bunk argument anyway because people a lot smarter than any of us are ripping and sharing everything under the sun.

The bottom line is if I can't do it legally, I'm going to continue to do it illegally.


----------



## rgreenpc

Luke_Y said:


> For you Vista MCE folks; How many streams of HD recordings can a system serve up at a time to Extenders before choking? Or should I be more worried about network bandwidth (assuming a wired network)?
> 
> Also, assuming the ability to hack on additional tuners, how many live streams can it serve up?


Luke -

I stress tested my VMC box a while back:
My setup is 2 HD OTA tuner cards and 2 DirecTV tuners feeding into it at SVIDEO resolution (although becuase I chose best quality, the files are almost as big as RAW OTA HD)

I was able to record all 4 streams (2 HD and 2 DirecTV), watch a show on my main PC and watch shows on my extender (only had one at the time)

CPU usage never got about 45% on a Dell XPS410 that I "Frankenstiened" into a HTPC.

Thats a standard 750GB SATA HD, no raid no nada.... granted when I build a new PC when the D* boxes come, I will probbably throw (2) 1TB drives striped together in a Raid, just to get the best transfer rates as then I will be dealing with a lot more HD streams, and I have 2 more extenders now.


----------



## houskamp

Luke_Y said:


> For you Vista MCE folks; How many streams of HD recordings can a system serve up at a time to Extenders before choking? Or should I be more worried about network bandwidth (assuming a wired network)?
> 
> Also, assuming the ability to hack on additional tuners, how many live streams can it serve up?


belive the hard drive wil choke 1st... IIRC 10 streams is a typical number.. and that includes recording and playback..


----------



## bakerfall

This might actually be better since it will produce non-DRM'd HD content from a Sat box and can be used with non-WMC software

http://www.tvsquad.com/2008/01/10/hauppauge-to-intro-device-that-captures-1080p-video-without-cabl/


----------



## Xzisted

Probably a stupid question. Will this thing support FTM/SWM for its two tuners. Since Earl says that its 'between' an H-HR 20/21 I would think it would since D* is moving everything over to that new technology, but I've seen products from manufacturers in the past where they started development on it so early that newer features on other products didn't make it in.

Did you hear anything about that Earl?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Xzisted said:


> Probably a stupid question. Will this thing support FTM/SWM for its two tuners. Since Earl says that its 'between' an H-HR 20/21 I would think it would since D* is moving everything over to that new technology, but I've seen products from manufacturers in the past where they started development on it so early that newer features on other products didn't make it in.
> 
> Did you hear anything about that Earl?


Right in the picture... FTM is listed above the input.

Yes, it is compatible with SWM


----------



## Xzisted

Earl Bonovich said:


> Right in the picture... FTM is listed above the input.
> 
> Yes, it is compatible with SWM


Cool. I guess I am just occasionally blind.

Thanks.


----------



## Luke_Y

Chris, rgreenpc,and houskamp

Thanks, as a follow up;

""Media Center supports up to five Extenders connected to the PC at once. Assuming your network has the bandwidth, you can stream out five HD streams all at once.""

So is the local MCPC and display added to that making it 6 total?

From what the others said it looks like HDD may be the choke point during heavy recording periods if one were to add/hack on additional tuners beyond the supported 4?

""IIRC 10 streams is a typical number.. and that includes recording and playback..""

That would fit with the 4 supported tuners recording, the 5 supported extenders playing, and the local MCPC and display makes 1 for the total of 10. Do I have it straight?

So looks like a raid and possibly a 2nd MCPC may be in order for a larger home with say 8 total displays? Any way to combine/consolidate the 2 HMPC? Could an extender be associated with 2 MCPC and pull from either?


----------



## ChrisL01

Luke_Y said:


> ""Media Center supports up to five Extenders connected to the PC at once. Assuming your network has the bandwidth, you can stream out five HD streams all at once.""
> 
> So is the local MCPC and display added to that making it 6 total?


Yes, and all operate independently.



Luke_Y said:


> From what the others said it looks like HDD may be the choke point during heavy recording periods if one were to add/hack on additional tuners beyond the supported 4?


I know people doing at least six streams (like four analog, two ATSC) all at the same time without hard drive issues.

Using a modern drive (SATA 3.0 Gbit/s) I don't think there will be much of an issue.

BTW, Microsoft officially supports four CableCARD tuners at once (when system is sold through a CI).



Luke_Y said:


> So looks like a raid and possibly a 2nd MCPC may be in order for a larger home with say 8 total displays? Any way to combine/consolidate the 2 HMPC? Could an extender be associated with 2 MCPC and pull from either?


No current way to really consolidate or combine two PC's. You run into problems with two different EPGs and a few other problems. This could be something Microsoft hits on in the next release, but hard to say anything about that now.

As for PC specs and other stuff like that, assuming these tuners are sold alone I'd highly suggest a minimum or a Core 2 Duo professor and 2GB of RAM if you are going to be serving up Extenders. Unless you are already a Media Center guru (or just like to learn) don't try doing any of this stuff on four year old PC parts.

Chris


----------



## Luke_Y

bakerfall said:


> It's not just portable devices, it's other PC's. The way the Cable Card DRM works, you can't even do that. I want to be able to take a recording and throw it on my laptop, iPod, anything I want. The way I look at it, it's my content and I should be able to do with it as I please. The "fear" is that it makes it easier to put on the web, but that's a bunk argument anyway because people a lot smarter than any of us are ripping and sharing everything under the sun.
> 
> The bottom line is if I can't do it legally, I'm going to continue to do it illegally.


With OTA free TV and DVDs you purchased I agree that what you want to do falls under "fair use" and the content shouldn't be restricted to prevent that.

But... With premium cable and Sat pay TV it's not your content, you didn't buy it, you paid for the ability to receive the broadcast... It's the content owners decision as to what we can do with it after that, not D* or the cable co. Some have argued in the past that time shifting was not fair use, it only became an issue when technology allowed us to time shift a perfect copy. It wasn't that big of a deal in the VCR days. But with D* and cable you do pay for the ability to do that.

Anyway this is OT and I'll try to stay out of it from here out. Just hate to hear all the doom and gloom about DRM wrt this exciting new product.


----------



## Luke_Y

ChrisL01 said:


> Yes, and all operate independently.
> 
> I know people doing at least six streams (like four analog, two ATSC) all at the same time without hard drive issues.
> 
> Using a modern drive (SATA 3.0 Gbit/s) I don't think there will be much of an issue.
> 
> No current way to really consolidate or combine two PC's. You run into problems with two different EPGs and a few other problems.Chris


Thanks, the first bits are good news.

If you can't consolidate the two PC's, can an extender be linked to or associated with more than one PC? That would likely be simple fix anyhow.


----------



## houskamp

ChrisL01 said:


> Yes, and all operate independently.
> 
> I know people doing at least six streams (like four analog, two ATSC) all at the same time without hard drive issues.
> 
> Using a modern drive (SATA 3.0 Gbit/s) I don't think there will be much of an issue.
> 
> BTW, Microsoft officially supports four CableCARD tuners at once (when system is sold through a CI).
> 
> No current way to really consolidate or combine two PC's. You run into problems with two different EPGs and a few other problems. This could be something Microsoft hits on in the next release, but hard to say anything about that now.
> 
> As for PC specs and other stuff like that, assuming these tuners are sold alone I'd highly suggest a minimum or a Core 2 Duo professor and 2GB of RAM if you are going to be serving up Extenders. Unless you are already a Media Center guru (or just like to learn) don't try doing any of this stuff on four year old PC parts.
> 
> Chris


3.0gb/sec only applies to the "burst" speed.. you have to look at the sustained transfer rate.. from the western digital web site for their Raptor 10,000 rpm drives: 84mb/sec sustained..


----------



## ChrisL01

Luke_Y said:


> Thanks, the first bits are good news.
> 
> If you can't consolidate the two PC's, can an extender be linked to or associated with more than one PC? That would likely be simple fix anyhow.


Not that I know of, there is no way to select which to connect to from the Extender.



houskamp said:


> 3.0gb/sec only applies to the "burst" speed.. you have to look at the sustained transfer rate.. from the western digital web site for their Raptor 10,000 rpm drives: 84mb/sec sustained..


I didn't say 3.0GB/s was the sustained write speed, I said that with a modern hard drive (example being a standard SATA-II drive) that I don't see it being an issue.

On that subject, I think the sustained of my WB SATA 3.0 drive is about 60 MB/s which would equal 480 Mbps if my math is right. Each D* stream is going to be less then 20Mbps, so you can do the rest of the math there.

Chris


----------



## houskamp

ChrisL01 said:


> Not that I know of, there is no way to select which to connect to from the Extender.
> 
> I didn't say 3.0GB/s was the sustained write speed, I said that with a modern hard drive (example being a standard SATA-II drive) that I don't see it being an issue.
> 
> Chris


but with video you will always fill the buffer (3.0gb/sec) and hit the sustainedread/write of the drive.. thats where the 10 stream limit for HD will come into play.. as I stated earlier in this thread in order to do a "real" media center for a house (4-8 tuners in and 8 streams out) it would require matching tuners to hard drives so you never wrote more than 2 streams (maybe 4) to a drive at a time.. this would leave the other 8 or so free to serve out media.. and yes it would take some horsepower in the proccessor and LAN too...


----------



## Xzisted

houskamp said:


> but with video you will always fill the buffer (3.0gb/sec) and hit the sustainedread/write of the drive.. thats where the 10 stream limit for HD will come into play.. as I stated earlier in this thread in order to do a "real" media center for a house (4-8 tuners in and 8 streams out) it would require matching tuners to hard drives so you never wrote more than 2 streams (maybe 4) to a drive at a time.. this would leave the other 8 or so free to serve out media.. and yes it would take some horsepower in the proccessor and LAN too...


What is the potential that you could hit the bus limit writing to two drives at once though. I also dont think media center has the ability to lock tuner to drive if i am not mistaken.


----------



## Luke_Y

Hmm, is there a workaround or hack to allow more than the 5 supported extenders if your hardware is up to the task? I'm thinking no or I figure you would have told me. You can probably see where I am headed with this.

My Ideal setup would be 1 MCPC with 4-8 tuners ATSC/D* serving all available content to 8 displays via extenders.

With the OS limit on 5 supported extenders I would be limited to 6 displays. I could add another MCPC for more displays but then couldn’t consolidate the 2.

Do the extenders count toward the supported limit if off/not in use? Might just have to cut it down to 6 displays. Spare bedrooms and office don't really need TVs.


----------



## jodavis

Luke_Y said:


> Hmm, is there a workaround or hack to allow more than the 5 supported extenders if your hardware is up to the task? I'm thinking no or I figure you would have told me. You can probably see where I am headed with this.
> 
> My Ideal setup would be 1 MCPC with 4-8 tuners ATSC/D* serving all available content to 8 displays via extenders.
> 
> With the OS limit on 5 supported extenders I would be limited to 6 displays. I could add another MCPC for more displays but then couldn't consolidate the 2.
> 
> Do the extenders count toward the supported limit if off/not in use? Might just have to cut it down to 6 displays. Spare bedrooms and office don't really need TVs.


How the heck could your lan hardware be up to the task. If my reasearch is correct each stream is somewhere in the neighborhood of 36 Mbps and if you assume about a 20% overhead when you are running multiple streams over a single lan connection then each stream would consume about 43.2 Mbps of your total lan bandwidth. Even with gigabit lan you are only going to get about 250 Mbps throughput sustained. That would make the practical expectation of a single machine somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 streams if nothing else at all were going on with your lan which isn't likely. I would expect that this is the reason that this limit exists in the first place. They probably dont want to get calls about bad picture when lan bandwidth and other things that are hard to diagnose and explain in laymens terms are to blame.

As for me I hope you can move DVR-MS files generated between pcs then I can just use several pcs as servers and have them share a networked storage for dvr content and one for movies (this solution is way in the future) which will mean that those pcs which are viewing content of diffrent types dont interfere with each other and what are the odds that every tv in the house will be viewing the same content (not high because then everyone would just congregate around a single display.)

But what do I know


----------



## houskamp

Xzisted said:


> What is the potential that you could hit the bus limit writing to two drives at once though.


That becomes the next good question.. and that math is above me :eek2: 
I would expect that the frontside buss would hold up pretty well in a modern pc..


----------



## jodavis

Sorry my math was a little off each stream should be 45.5 Mbps

Video = 1920 lines * 1080 lines * 24 bit * 29.97 fps * ~1/36 compression = 39.5 Mbps

Audio = 44.1 * 10^3 * 24 bit * 6 channels = 6 Mbps

I had the compression ratio for the video wrong but this would make it worse not better. Point is that we will have to find some way to share the video from the HDPC around for houses with high numbers of displays.


----------



## rgreenpc

jodavis said:


> As for me I hope you can move DVR-MS files generated between pcs then I can just use several pcs as servers and have them share a networked storage for dvr content and one for movies (this solution is way in the future) which will mean that those pcs which are viewing content of diffrent types dont interfere with each other and what are the odds that every tv in the house will be viewing the same content (not high because then everyone would just congregate around a single display.)
> 
> But what do I know


Network Shared drive to store your recordings  It can be done now.


----------



## jodavis

rgreenpc said:


> Network Shared drive to store your recordings  It can be done now.


I'm just worried that the DRM wont let one PC access the recordings which are placed there by a diffrent PC. If this is the case I guess I'll have to figure out something diffrent. Of course this problem is probably 10 years in the future for me so by then there will probably be 100 Gbps networking and I wont care anymore.


----------



## Luke_Y

jodavis said:


> How the heck could your lan hardware be up to the task. If my reasearch is correct each stream is somewhere in the neighborhood of 36 Mbps and if you assume about a 20% overhead when you are running multiple streams over a single lan connection then each stream would consume about 43.2 Mbps of your total lan bandwidth. Even with gigabit lan you are only going to get about 250 Mbps throughput sustained. That would make the practical expectation of a single machine somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 streams if nothing else at all were going on with your lan which isn't likely. I would expect that this is the reason that this limit exists in the first place. They probably dont want to get calls about bad picture when lan bandwidth and other things that are hard to diagnose and explain in laymens terms are to blame...
> But what do I know


Well, some of the previous talk led me to think it might be possible if you could find workarounds to the number of supported extenders. After all if 6 is doable and supported I can't see that 8 is insurmountable.



ChrisL01 said:


> Media Center supports up to five Extenders connected to the PC at once. Assuming your network has the bandwidth, you can stream out five HD streams all at once. A 100Mbit network should do this just fine. If you are using wireless, 802.11n is a must and even then I wouldn't expect five HD streams at once...
> Chris





houskamp said:


> belive the hard drive wil choke 1st... IIRC 10 streams is a typical number.. and that includes recording and playback..





ChrisL01 said:


> ...On that subject, I think the sustained of my WB SATA 3.0 drive is about 60 MB/s which would equal 480 Mbps if my math is right. Each D* stream is going to be less then 20Mbps, so you can do the rest of the math there.
> 
> Chris


So at less than 20Mbps we're talking 160Mbps across the LAN if 8 streams were being watched right? If it has to be Gigabit LAN so be it. Its just a router right?


----------



## airedale

Luke_Y said:


> So at less than 20Mbps we're talking 160Mbps across the LAN if 8 streams were being watched right? If it has to be Gigabit LAN so be it. Its just a router right?


I think you mean switch...


----------



## Luke_Y

airedale said:


> I think you mean switch...


I thought companies were now offering routers with integrated Gigabit switches now.

But if not then yes I mean switch.


----------



## P Smith

Provider's data is much accurate - max bandwidth of HD channel in TS stream seen 16...18 Mbps, not your double inflated numbers.



jodavis said:


> Sorry my math was a little off each stream should be 45.5 Mbps
> 
> Video = 1920 lines * 1080 lines * 24 bit * 29.97 fps * ~1/36 compression = 39.5 Mbps
> 
> Audio = 44.1 * 10^3 * 24 bit * 6 channels = 6 Mbps
> 
> I had the compression ratio for the video wrong but this would make it worse not better. Point is that we will have to find some way to share the video from the HDPC around for houses with high numbers of displays.


----------



## thejunker

Luke_Y said:


> I thought companies were now offering routers with integrated Gigabit switches now.
> 
> But if not then yes I mean switch.


There are several consumer grade routers with Gig-E switches on them. The D-link DIR-655 and the DGL series all have this capability. I am sure Linksys / Buffalo / Belkin all have comparable models.

However, with that in mind, I have found it better to have any media devices on an independent gig switch separate from the router. I am not sure the logic flow that this involves, since a switch is supposed to be able to carry 1 to 1 traffic, but I know that sometimes I had trouble streaming 3 OTA HD shows from my UnRaid Server to my HTPC's simultaniously until I moved them off my DGL-4300 and to a cheap independent Gig Switch... FWIW.

And to address the initial topic, I have been without cable/satelite for 2 years waiting on the DirecTV tuner card technology to get here, and am absolutely thrilled to hear that this product may come to fruition after all, that is the one thing that will probably bring me back.


----------



## P Smith

I'm assure you - the product will have long long way to customers if it really happened. 
I'm very pessimistic about it.
Too many reasons, and first one it wasn't happen in 1997 when those Dish/Directv ABA-1020/1030 PCI boards was on the market, and MS don't ready for it ( and for any satellite tuner particulary) now and D* don't want to share own secrets plus content providers will keep it from public up to the end.
A lot of opportunity to be real vaporware.


----------



## Jeremy W

Luke_Y said:


> I thought companies were now offering routers with integrated Gigabit switches now.


Yes, they are.


----------



## bhelton71

P Smith said:


> Provider's data is much accurate - max bandwidth of HD channel in TS stream seen 16...18 Mbps, not your double inflated numbers.


I think they are both right - I think 16-18 Mbps represents the compressed ts and the 40-50 looks like uncompressed - I don't pretend to know that though. Maybe ChrisL or someone knows - does MCE send the ts or the uncompressed video out on the wire ?


----------



## ChrisL01

Luke_Y said:


> Hmm, is there a workaround or hack to allow more than the 5 supported extenders if your hardware is up to the task? I'm thinking no or I figure you would have told me. You can probably see where I am headed with this.


Right, no hack that I know of. Of course, very few people (that I know at least) actually own more than five Extenders.



Luke_Y said:


> Do the extenders count toward the supported limit if off/not in use? Might just have to cut it down to 6 displays. Spare bedrooms and office don't really need TVs.


So I don't know exactly how this works because I've never gone up to five, but I believe it is a max of five connected at once. That said, I don't know how Media Center handles this.



bhelton71 said:


> I think they are both right - I think 16-18 Mbps represents the compressed ts and the 40-50 looks like uncompressed - I don't pretend to know that though. Maybe ChrisL or someone knows - does MCE send the ts or the uncompressed video out on the wire ?


The video stream is untouched (eg. still compressed) until the Extender decodes it. Good thing to, because a single 1080i video stream is going to be 700-800Mbps when uncompressed.

Chris


----------



## sipester

ChrisL - It appears that the DRM for this solution will be similar to the current cablecards (except that you don't need a cablelabs approved computer). So can you confirm the following set-up would work?

Hdpc20 > MCE and then separately save recorded files to WHS. Then the archived files would go from WHS > MCE > extender? If so, then this should allow for essentially unlimited recording.

I think it is possible for WHS serve extender's directly, but for the DRM to work, the D* stream needs to go back through the MCE?

Since extender's can only be connected to one server, a full set-up would look like this.

Desktop/Laptops > WHS for photos, videos, etc. and then this content is served back to all desktops/laptops in house (but no D* content) and well as the other features that WHS does. WHS would also serve all content (including D* content) back to the MCE and then the MCE would serve all the extenders.

This certainly seems like duplication between the MCE and the WHS, it would seem so much easier to just have WHS support 6 tuners (4 D* or cablecard and 2 OTA) and serve all extenders and computers on the network (though I see the DRM need to limit D* content only back to the extenders).

As it currently stands, it seems that to get the most stable option with the Hdpc20, you would need to have 3 computers (1 MCE with tuners and to serve extenders, 1 WHS to manage NAS and computers on network, and 1 other computer regular PC use). If the MCE is recording multiple HD streams and serving multiple extenders, I don't think you would also want to use that for regular PC activities.


----------



## Jeremy W

sipester said:


> Hdpc20 > MCE and then separately save recorded files to WHS. Then the archived files would go from WHS > MCE > extender? If so, then this should allow for essentially unlimited recording.


I see absolutely no reason why this setup wouldn't work.


----------



## sorahl

I can confirm this. A file saved to a WHS directory will be able to viewed via an extender because WHS is designed to function as a directory on your pc. 
WHAT SHOULD work is the HDPC recordings saving automatically to a WHS directory for the same reason..


----------



## HDTVFreak07

sipester said:


> ChrisL - It appears that the DRM for this solution will be similar to the current cablecards (except that you don't need a cablelabs approved computer). So can you confirm the following set-up would work?
> 
> Hdpc20 > MCE and then separately save recorded files to WHS. Then the archived files would go from WHS > MCE > extender? If so, then this should allow for essentially unlimited recording.
> 
> I think it is possible for WHS serve extender's directly, but for the DRM to work, the D* stream needs to go back through the MCE?
> 
> Since extender's can only be connected to one server, a full set-up would look like this.
> 
> Desktop/Laptops > WHS for photos, videos, etc. and then this content is served back to all desktops/laptops in house (but no D* content) and well as the other features that WHS does. WHS would also serve all content (including D* content) back to the MCE and then the MCE would serve all the extenders.
> 
> This certainly seems like duplication between the MCE and the WHS, it would seem so much easier to just have WHS support 6 tuners (4 D* or cablecard and 2 OTA) and serve all extenders and computers on the network (though I see the DRM need to limit D* content only back to the extenders).
> 
> As it currently stands, it seems that to get the most stable option with the Hdpc20, you would need to have 3 computers (1 MCE with tuners and to serve extenders, 1 WHS to manage NAS and computers on network, and 1 other computer regular PC use). If the MCE is recording multiple HD streams and serving multiple extenders, I don't think you would also want to use that for regular PC activities.


WHS? What is WHS? And no, I don't see the need for three computers. NAS? What is NAS?


----------



## bakerfall

HDTVFreak07 said:


> WHS? What is WHS? And no, I don't see the need for three computers. NAS? What is NAS?


WHS = Windows Home Server. A separate OS designed to function as a file server.
NAS = Network Attached Storage. Essentially a hard drive on the network that can run sans PC/OS (it works on it's own).


----------



## rgreenpc

I have 2 computers
1 - VMC box ( thats i do surf the web on... web on a 55"... nice) and 1 for my work/play.

I may add another depending on if I can add 2 HDPC20s onto my VMC box as I want 3 D* tuners.


----------



## sorahl

bakerfall said:


> WHS = Windows Home Server. A separate OS designed to function as a file server.
> NAS = Network Attached Storage. Essentially a hard drive on the network that can run sans PC/OS (it works on it's own).


In addition WHS will enable you to view your media, documents ANYWHERE on the internet via a special website (no configuration needed by you..) SO..... IN THEORY you could watch your recorded programs anywhere...

John


----------



## ChrisL01

sipester said:


> ChrisL - It appears that the DRM for this solution will be similar to the current cablecards (except that you don't need a cablelabs approved computer). So can you confirm the following set-up would work?
> 
> Hdpc20 > MCE and then separately save recorded files to WHS. Then the archived files would go from WHS > MCE > extender? If so, then this should allow for essentially unlimited recording.


This currently work with CableCARD, so assuming it works the same with D* then yes.



sorahl said:


> WHAT SHOULD work is the HDPC recordings saving automatically to a WHS directory for the same reason..


Media Center currently doesn't support recording to a network share. Unless that changes with the next release, you would have to manually move the recordings (or setup a script to do it).



sorahl said:


> In addition WHS will enable you to view your media, documents ANYWHERE on the internet via a special website (no configuration needed by you..) SO..... IN THEORY you could watch your recorded programs anywhere...
> 
> John


In theory, yes. In practice, no. If the D* recordings are protected they will only be viewable within your home (either on that PC or on Extenders.)

Chris


----------



## water1

I have not seen any discussion of whether the AM21 ATSC tuner could be integrated with the HDPC20?


----------



## bakerfall

water1 said:


> I have not seen any discussion of whether the AM21 ATSC tuner could be integrated with the HDPC20?


Earl has said at least twice that it will not be compatible with the HDPC. The reason being that there are dozens of OTA PC tuners available that already work with WMC, there is no reason for it.


----------



## xtc

phat78boy said:


> Those are very shortsighted comments. Vista is a very good OS, but its default coniguration is not very good. Once tweaked to your liking, Vista is among the best OS's out there.


*Hmmmm, this guy disagrees with you. You might know who he is. Check it out...*


----------



## Drew2k

xtc said:


> *Hmmmm, this guy disagrees with you. You might know who he is. Check it out...*


He said, "Ask me after we ship the next version of windows." Without context, it's impossible to know what version he was talking about. Never mind - I followed through to engadget and see this was from CES 2008.


----------



## JayB

ChrisL01 said:


> Media Center currently doesn't support recording to a network share. Unless that changes with the next release, you would have to manually move the recordings (or setup a script to do it).


Chris, have you (or anyone you know) tried the hack Richard Miller posted over at DigitalLifestyle.com (http://thedigitallifestyle.com/cs/forums/thread/2608.aspx)? I know that this is just a hack and not "supported", but if it does work, it would allow you to save your recordings directly to WHS without the need of a script. If this works for the current tuners, it should continue to work with the HDPC20, right?


----------



## ChrisL01

Yeah, that very well should work, but again I wouldn't suggest it. Your saturate your network with high bitrate content and you risk losing your recordings all together. I don't believe they are cached on the local hard drive at all, so if you start losing packets then the recording could be useless.

With how cheap hard drive space is, there is little reason (IMHO) to record directly to a network share. Sure it is kind of the Holy Grail, but setting up a script (or using something like Sync Toy) to move the recordings is my suggestion.

Chris


----------



## sorahl

ChrisL01 said:


> Media Center currently doesn't support recording to a network share. Unless that changes with the next release, you would have to manually move the recordings (or setup a script to do it).
> Chris


WHS does not show up as a network share. it shows up as a directory on your pc, atleast that is how it worked when i used the beta.

sorahl


----------



## Shawnn

With the HDPC-20 PC Based DirecTV Receiver and DVR coming soon do you think it will be possible to connect your HR-20 to a Windows Media Center PC and use the HR-20 store your DirecTV content and stream video to the media center or media extenders. I’m assuming it would be possible to do through the Ethernet port or the USB port.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Shawnn said:


> With the HDPC-20 PC Based DirecTV Receiver and DVR coming soon do you think it will be possible to connect your HR-20 to a Windows Media Center PC and use the HR-20 store your DirecTV content and stream video to the media center or media extenders. I'm assuming it would be possible to do through the Ethernet port or the USB port.


Probably not.


----------



## JayB

sorahl said:


> WHS does not show up as a network share. it shows up as a directory on your pc, atleast that is how it worked when i used the beta.
> 
> sorahl


It shows up as a network share now. The connector software puts a folder on your desktop that makes it look a bit like a directory, but it's referenced as "\\server\..."


----------



## JayB

ChrisL01 said:


> Yeah, that very well should work, but again I wouldn't suggest it. Your saturate your network with high bitrate content and you risk losing your recordings all together.


I agree - even with my gigabit network I wouldn't bother. But some folks really, really, *really* want to do this for some reason (perhaps for the duplication/mirroring the WHS does? dunno), that I thought I'd mention it.

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## windex

JayB said:


> I agree - even with my gigabit network I wouldn't bother. But some folks really, really, *really* want to do this for some reason (perhaps for the duplication/mirroring the WHS does? dunno), that I thought I'd mention it.
> 
> Thanks for the reply.


That some reason is that people want to migrate all their media to a central location. This day and age it shouldn't matter which room your in. Why shouldn't you be able to watch the ball game from the bedroom, living room, computer room, back deck, garage, using a common interface and with a variety of hardware that's not directly tied to a d* receiver? Should we really need a receiver in every room when there is already a gaming system or computer capable of displaying the same thing?

The next logical step for television is to separate the content from the display device, commonly known as the television. The content that appears on the television has appeared there for so long many people seem to have forgotten the television is just a device to display images with a built in radio tuner. Its time we started separating the content from the display device because quite frankly it just doesn't matter any more, people want the content they have from anywhere.

Its all just data, it doesn't matter where it is as long as the technologies exists to access and display it. In this case the technology is there the vision simply doesn't hold up to those in position to allow it to happen because of greed and fear. Its good to see D* stepping up and giving the people what they want. I haven't seen or heard of anything like this from any other providers, if its done right it could be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition.


----------



## sorahl

windex said:


> Its all just data, it doesn't matter where it is as long as the technologies exists to access and display it. In this case the technology is there the vision simply doesn't hold up to those in position to allow it to happen because of greed and fear. Its good to see D* stepping up and giving the people what they want. I haven't seen or heard of anything like this from any other providers, if its done right it could be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition.


You've nailed it exactly. I'm tech geek, i've been doing all the geek stuff for years. I have two wired networks running my house (100 and 1 Gig) and 1 wireless network with AP's on all three floors. It was ONLY when microsoft did their fall update for the xbox 360 and also Directv enabled video to work on the Media share that things have FINALLY started approaching where i want them. I am able to watch any video file i have on my 3 TB server on our plasma upstairs in the family room from my office downstairs. 
We are not there yet. I want this to be bidirectional and everywhere. But with WHS, and the HDPC and the forthcoming ability to share from DTV hr20 to the pc, and hopefully to another hr20 THEN i will be where I want to be 

sorahl


----------



## JayB

windex said:


> That some reason is that people want to migrate all their media to a central location. This day and age it shouldn't matter which room your in...Its all just data, it doesn't matter where it is as long as the technologies exists to access and display it.


Maybe I'm confused, but with a media extender, it doesn't matter, does it? Why move your recorded TV files over to WHS when the extender or another computer can access them just fine sitting on the MCE machine? Not trying to be obtuse here - I just don't see what you're buying.


----------



## sorahl

JayB said:


> Maybe I'm confused, but with a media extender, it doesn't matter, does it? Why move your recorded TV files over to WHS when the extender or another computer can access them just fine sitting on the MCE machine? Not trying to be obtuse here - I just don't see what you're buying.


The reason is that a lot of us have huge amounts of media (photo, video, audio) and by having it in multiple locations we tend to have unnecessary duplicates. By always having all our data in ONE location, regardless of where it started, we save space, and always know where to find it. For myself I have one machine with 3 TB of media (mostly audio from an OTR library) and another 1tb atleast spread over 2 other machines. I KNOW there are duplicates and it is very inefficient. So I will be using WHS as the one location that ALL machines/extenders will be able to retrieve content from for everyone in the house that wants to use it.

John


----------



## JayB

sorahl said:


> The reason is that a lot of us have huge amounts of media (photo, video, audio) and by having it in multiple locations we tend to have unnecessary duplicates.


As a WHS user, this is the same reason I use it. However, what I don't see is why this is you'd want to this with all your TV shows. Unlike the rest of my media (music, pictures, home movies, etc.), TV shows are transient, temporary things. I'm certainly not going to be interested in archiving "Rules of Engagment"!  I see WHS as a place for things I'll want forever (or at least for an extended period of time), not for things that flit in and out of existance. But hey, "different strokes for different folks" and all that...


----------



## ChrisL01

sorahl said:


> The reason is that a lot of us have huge amounts of media (photo, video, audio) and by having it in multiple locations we tend to have unnecessary duplicates. By always having all our data in ONE location, regardless of where it started, we save space, and always know where to find it. For myself I have one machine with 3 TB of media (mostly audio from an OTR library) and another 1tb atleast spread over 2 other machines. I KNOW there are duplicates and it is very inefficient.


This is a case of Microsoft having several products with the same basic concept. When Media Center was first launched, this is exactly what it was going to be. One central PC in your home controls all your content. The trouble is that Microsoft did a second product with much of the same reasoning, except it added data dup and backup abilities.



sorahl said:


> So I will be using WHS as the one location that ALL machines/extenders will be able to retrieve content from for everyone in the house that wants to use it.
> 
> John


Adding to what I just said above, Extenders only connect to the PC running Media Center. The Extender can't connect to WHS. So in order to do this you are actually holding the content on WHS, but it basically is going though the PC hosting the Media Center Extender session also.

In other words, these two products merge at some points but currently don't connect. This is going to lead to problems for people looking to use WHS as the center of the home media distribution.

Chris


----------



## jodavis

sorahl said:


> The reason is that a lot of us have huge amounts of media (photo, video, audio) and by having it in multiple locations we tend to have unnecessary duplicates. By always having all our data in ONE location, regardless of where it started, we save space, and always know where to find it. For myself I have one machine with 3 TB of media (mostly audio from an OTR library) and another 1tb atleast spread over 2 other machines. I KNOW there are duplicates and it is very inefficient. So I will be using WHS as the one location that ALL machines/extenders will be able to retrieve content from for everyone in the house that wants to use it.
> 
> John


The solution for this is to have a single MCE PC hosting all your media and the HDPC tuners. Then you have a 360 or other extender in any location where you may want to view the content. I cant believe it will be that long before Sony, LG or one of the other high end display makers (maybe SHARP) integrates a Wireless N Media Center Extender into a flat screen. That is my holy grail because then all I have to run to any location where I want a display is 120V power and any new technologys or features that come out can be integrated into the PC without replacing all the displays in the house.


----------



## mikela

jodavis said:


> The solution for this is to have a single MCE PC hosting all your media and the HDPC tuners. Then you have a 360 or other extender in any location where you may want to view the content. I cant believe it will be that long before Sony, LG or one of the other high end display makers (maybe SHARP) integrates a Wireless N Media Center Extender into a flat screen. That is my holy grail because then all I have to run to any location where I want a display is 120V power and any new technologys or features that come out can be integrated into the PC without replacing all the displays in the house.


Guess your holy grail has come to be. Check out HP's website for their Media Smart HD LCD's.


----------



## jodavis

mikela said:


> Guess your holy grail has come to be. Check out HP's website for their Media Smart HD LCD's.


Sort of. This would be perfect when it functions as a Media Center Extender and it is coupled to high end displays instead of middle of the road LCDs


----------



## ChrisL01

I think the HP displays are rather nice, but your right it is not really a BRAVIA. That said, HP will have Media Center Extender's included into all of their MediaSmart HDTV's (free upgrade will be offered on last years models), and Samung will have an add-on device that will turn their displays into the same.

Chris


----------



## Deathknight

JayB said:


> As a WHS user, this is the same reason I use it. However, what I don't see is why this is you'd want to this with all your TV shows.


Personally I could see the day coming that I would consider doing this. With the ability to use this as my primary dvr, recording via OTA tuners in addition to pulling shows off of the dish, and then streaming shows throughout my house, I would probably want to upgrade my htpc with more storage and a raid config that gives additional fault tolerance.

The problem with running that many drives is that my simple htpc becomes a little cramped on space, generates more noise and more heat than I would care for.

Now I could always move my htpc out of the living room and use it purely as a server and replace it with a media center extender, but really I would prefer to continue using it in its current role, just adding additional duties to it. I don't think I would ever go this route until I really had the networking aspect of it thoroughly thought out however. Gigabit from MCE to the server etc.


----------



## jeonunh

Deathknight said:


> Personally I could see the day coming that I would consider doing this. With the ability to use this as my primary dvr, recording via OTA tuners in addition to pulling shows off of the dish, and then streaming shows throughout my house, I would probably want to upgrade my htpc with more storage and a raid config that gives additional fault tolerance.
> 
> The problem with running that many drives is that my simple htpc becomes a little cramped on space, generates more noise and more heat than I would care for.
> 
> Now I could always move my htpc out of the living room and use it purely as a server and replace it with a media center extender, but really I would prefer to continue using it in its current role, just adding additional duties to it. I don't think I would ever go this route until I really had the networking aspect of it thoroughly thought out however. Gigabit from MCE to the server etc.


You could always do what I do. I have my mce system in the basement. The thing is pretty loud with 6 drives and agressive cooling, but I can't hear it upstairs. I ran a 30ft HDMI cable to my main TV to avoid needing an extender. I actually have a second 30ft cable running to another room that lets me watch the same thing in another room, and an extender in the bedroom.


----------



## JayB

Deathknight said:


> Personally I could see the day coming that I would consider doing this. With the ability to use this as my primary dvr, recording via OTA tuners in addition to pulling shows off of the dish, and then streaming shows throughout my house, I would probably want to upgrade my htpc with more storage and a raid config that gives additional fault tolerance.


Ah, now, if I could have the tuners and such in my server and record to it that way and then just have extenders throughout the house, *that* I would buy into. My single issue here was recording via the HTPC and saving it across the network to the WHS machine. When the HTPC can serve up the videos just fine why would I want to move everything to what amounts, in this scenario, to a different server? Personally, I wouldn't. Other folks though, they see value here and that's fine if it's fills a need they have.


----------



## sipester

JayB said:


> Ah, now, if I could have the tuners and such in my server and record to it that way and then just have extenders throughout the house, *that* I would buy into. My single issue here was recording via the HTPC and saving it across the network to the WHS machine. When the HTPC can serve up the videos just fine why would I want to move everything to what amounts, in this scenario, to a different server? Personally, I wouldn't. Other folks though, they see value here and that's fine if it's fills a need they have.


I think the main reason people are willing to deal with the hassle of moving recorded TV from the MCE to the WHS is that it allows for unlimited archiving of HD content. If you subscribe to some of the premium programming like HBO or Showtime, you can record HD movies without commercials and then access them from anyplace in the house that has an extender.

As far as I am aware, there aren't really many other options for being able to archive HD content and have access to it from multiple locations.

Obviously, it would be much easier if Microsoft could somehow merge MCE and WHS, but until then moving files from MCE to WHS is the only workaround for unlimited recording (unless you have the money for this computer http://www.vidabox.com/products_magnum.php - but even then there is limit to how much you can record).


----------



## P Smith

The case itself have a price $1300 ! Add motherboard, components, 9 TB disks (9x 1TB x$300 ), etc. Too expensive.


----------



## jodavis

With the demand being as low as it will (The whole thing is going to be throttled by network bandwitdth) I see no reason that high end hardware will be needed. While this looks cool I would think a $500 HP with another $500 worth of USB hard drives wouldn't do just as well


----------



## Deathknight

jeonunh said:


> You could always do what I do. I have my mce system in the basement. The thing is pretty loud with 6 drives and agressive cooling, but I can't hear it upstairs. I ran a 30ft HDMI cable to my main TV to avoid needing an extender. I actually have a second 30ft cable running to another room that lets me watch the same thing in another room, and an extender in the bedroom.


You know I have considered this as well. My basement is currently unfinished and I could do this, at least for the time being. The problem comes in when I eventually finish my basement and put in my home theater(A guy can dream!). Directly under my family room is where this will be located. And for now, I have no power in this section of the basement, so it is not ideal, but certainly doable if I ran a long extension cord and used an RF remote.


----------



## water1

http://www.fjdrasch.com/v2/v2_frame.htm

Does this add in for WHS offer anything that would make it usable in the setups described in this discussion?


----------



## Deathknight

P Smith said:


> The case itself have a price $1300 ! Add motherboard, components, 9 TB disks (9x 1TB x$300 ), etc. Too expensive.


Its a shame it is so expensive. That is the only case with a touchscreen that I think would be truly useful, because the screen has a 1080p resolution, thus it can mirror what is displayed on your tv. Perfect for selecting music etc while the tv is off!


----------



## sipester

water1 said:


> http://www.fjdrasch.com/v2/v2_frame.htm
> 
> Does this add in for WHS offer anything that would make it usable in the setups described in this discussion?


If that works as advertised, that looks like a good option to integrate the MCE and WHS to essentially allow for a seemless operation between the two systems. In essence, the MCE becomes the "slave" for the WHS since the WHS isn't setup yet to support the HDPC20.

Still a 2 box solution until Microsoft addes tuner support to WHS.


----------



## jodavis

sipester said:


> If that works as advertised, that looks like a good option to integrate the MCE and WHS to essentially allow for a seemless operation between the two systems. In essence, the MCE becomes the "slave" for the WHS since the WHS isn't setup yet to support the HDPC20.
> 
> Still a 2 box solution until Microsoft addes tuner support to WHS.


As I understand it Microsoft would have to add several things to WHS because the MCE PC is actually hosting the User Interface for each extender in use. Microsoft would have to add extender functionality to WHS which would probably make it easier to add the server apps to MCE and have MCE be the OS of choice on your WHS machine. Both these seem unlikely to happen. I dont know why one wouldn't just add third party software to the MCE PC to do the hosting then you dont need a separate WHS machine.


----------



## Deezul

Deathknight said:


> Directly under my family room is where this will be located. And for now, I have no power in this section of the basement, so it is not ideal, but certainly doable if I ran a long extension cord and used an RF remote.


Your basement is unfinsihed; run some extra power! I have to go through and put in a 20 Amp circuit after my basement has been finsihed since both of my main rooms are going through one 15 Amp circuit!

Deezul


----------



## Shawnn

JayB said:


> Ah, now, if I could have the tuners and such in my server and record to it that way and then just have extenders throughout the house, *that* I would buy into. My single issue here was recording via the HTPC and saving it across the network to the WHS machine. When the HTPC can serve up the videos just fine why would I want to move everything to what amounts, in this scenario, to a different server? Personally, I wouldn't. Other folks though, they see value here and that's fine if it's fills a need they have.


I would have to agree as well, why move all your DTV content to another hard drive when you can just keep it on the HDPC or if possible HR-20 and stream to media extenders.


----------



## ChrisL01

sipester said:


> I think the main reason people are willing to deal with the hassle of moving recorded TV from the MCE to the WHS is that it allows for unlimited archiving of HD content. If you subscribe to some of the premium programming like HBO or Showtime, you can record HD movies without commercials and then access them from anyplace in the house that has an extender.
> 
> As far as I am aware, there aren't really many other options for being able to archive HD content and have access to it from multiple locations.
> 
> Obviously, it would be much easier if Microsoft could somehow merge MCE and WHS, but until then moving files from MCE to WHS is the only workaround for unlimited recording (unless you have the money for this computer http://www.vidabox.com/products_magnum.php - but even then there is limit to how much you can record).


It should be noted that any Windows Vista PC can handle that task. With 500GB hard drives going for $100, and with unlimited expansion via USB, you will (for the most part) be able to accomplish such a task using the same PC that the D* tuners are connected too.

Chris


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## mva5580

I officially joined the D* family today, and got Cox Cable the hell out of my house. Definitely enjoying the HUGE jump in the amount of HD stations, and just the amount overall. And I pay $5 less a month. Stupid cable. Don't know what too me so long.

Anyway, I absolutely cannot wait until this product becomes a reality. I have the HR-21 and my HTPC hooked up right now, and the day where I can essentially combine those two will be a sweet, sweet day.

Come on MS/D*, LET'S GO!!! You have buyers here very willing, very ready to plunk down the $$$. Let's do it.


----------



## Jahf

I pinged DirecTV on the HDPC-20 today. Got a bit more information than I had seen before but its still quite vague. Looks like late this year before we actually see it. I guess I'll keep my slowly dying beta TiVo unit a tad longer 



> Thanks for writing. The HDPC-20, which uses PC as a DVR will be available late 2008. This USB-connected device hooks into your DVR or HD-DVR and your PC. More details will be provided in mid-2008, so stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our service.


The way I interpret this:
* Can connect to the PC for recording
* DVRs will be able to view the data on the PC (though it could be argued they're saying the DVRs could directly plug in to the HDPC-20)
* No idea of the pricing yet 
* Won't get solid information until Summer
* Won't see the product released until Fall at the earliest

My primary concern with the unit is going to be the way they implement DRM and codecs. If I have to have a Hughes hardware and/or Windows Vista for the box that actually views the shared video (in the case of not viewing on the PC but instead using the PC to serve the program to a unit in another room) then it will probably be a dead-end for me. If, alternatively, the PC can stream to a device like a PS3 (which I happen to have one of now, and would buy another or two of if I could use it in this manner) or X-box 360 (which I would buy if that was the only alternative) then I'll be buying as soon as it comes out. The cost and administrative overhead of managing multiple PCs just for viewing doesn't interest me, and being locked into multiple Hughes units for viewing doesn't either.

Here's hoping. That one capability (streaming to non-Hughes, non-Microsoft machines) would be all it would take to hook me hard. Otherwise by the time this unit comes out I should be relocated to an area where D* isn't my only viable option any longer (and I'll finally have OTA HDTV as well) and I think I'll be done with DirecTV. The whole "no more TiVo, take this thing we slapped together" mess was just too much for me. The HDPC-20 is the only way I really see them redeeming themselves in my eyes, and then only if it gives me a way to have control over the UI I'm using.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

-) Yes... you will be able to record to the PC (#1 reason why it is being developed)
-) Not necessarily at this time, even though the DVRs can already see video content on a PC... we don't know yet if it will be able to access HDCP recorded content
-) Pricing is expected to be around the price of HR20
-) We won't get more solid information, until Microsoft gets to the next phase of their software development for the unit
-) To early yet to predict any type of rollout plans for the unit.


----------



## techm8n

Earl Bonovich said:


> -) Yes... you will be able to record to the PC (#1 reason why it is being developed)
> -) Not necessarily at this time, even though the DVRs can already see video content on a PC... we don't know yet if it will be able to access HDCP recorded content
> -) Pricing is expected to be around the price of HR20
> -) We won't get more solid information, until Microsoft gets to the next phase of their software development for the unit
> -) To early yet to predict any type of rollout plans for the unit.


Earl,

Will you be able to install multiple HDPC devices on one MS Vista Media Center PC?

If yes, can multiple Media Center Extenders simultaneously access live TV through the one MS Media Center/HDPC?

This setup will enable us to centralize the Media Center/HDPC and only run the Sat cables straight to the Media Center/HDPC location. All other rooms with TVs will only have a Media Center Extender (thin client) connected via wired or 802.11n wireless network.

if the answer to my questions above is yes, I will plan to have have one MS Vista Media Center PC with 3 HDPC devices (equals to 6 sat lines total) connected to a Linksys Dual Band 802.11n wireless router. Living room will have an Xbox 360 as my media center extender and purchase 3 additional media center extenders for the other rooms all connected via wired or 802.11n dual band wireless adapters.

I apologize if this question has already been asked.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

-) I have been told there is no hardware limitation to stop you from having more then one... The question will be will the software support more then one.

-) That is another Microsoft/Software question, that we don't have the answers for youet (multiple extenders)


----------



## chrisfowler99

> This USB-connected device *hooks into your DVR or HD-DVR* and your PC.


Why would it hook into your DVR or HD-DVR? 

4 tuners on an HR-20?


----------



## Jeremy W

chrisfowler99 said:


> Why would it hook into your DVR or HD-DVR?


I'd say it's because the CSR is mis-informed.


----------



## chrisfowler99

Jeremy W said:


> I'd say it's because the CSR is mis-informed.


Never!


----------



## ChrisL01

Jahf said:


> My primary concern with the unit is going to be the way they implement DRM and codecs. If I have to have a Hughes hardware and/or Windows Vista for the box that actually views the shared video (in the case of not viewing on the PC but instead using the PC to serve the program to a unit in another room) then it will probably be a dead-end for me.


You will need a Windows Vista PC to do the recording, whether it will need to be brand new from a "DIRECTV Certified OEM" has yet to be officially seen. This is the way it works today with Windows Vista and CableCARD.

You will be able to view recordings on the Vista PC it was recorded on and on Media Center Extenders. The Xbox 360 is an example of a Media Center Extender. This is assuming that all the content will be protected when it gets to the PC. If it is not all protected then you will also be able to view recordings on just about anything (I wouldn't hold your breath for unprotected recordings though).



Jahf said:


> If, alternatively, the PC can stream to a device like a PS3 (which I happen to have one of now, and would buy another or two of if I could use it in this manner) or X-box 360 (which I would buy if that was the only alternative) then I'll be buying as soon as it comes out. The cost and administrative overhead of managing multiple PCs just for viewing doesn't interest me, and being locked into multiple Hughes units for viewing doesn't either.


Xbox 360, yes. PS3, no. If Sony wants they can add Extender functionality to the PS3, then it would work.

Again, if content happened to be unprotected it would work on just about anything (buy again, I wouldn't except that to happen).



techm8n said:


> Will you be able to install multiple HDPC devices on one MS Vista Media Center PC?


Current Media Center supports four total tuners, two can be NTSC/CableCARD/D* and another two can be ATSC. Since the D* tuner is a dual tuner box it would take the two spots for supported tuners.

There will be a Media Center release before this tuner works, so if Microsoft changes tuner support in that then more will work officially.

Unofficially, you will most likely be able to hack the registry to enable two of them to work.



techm8n said:


> If yes, can multiple Media Center Extenders simultaneously access live TV through the one MS Media Center/HDPC?


Yes, and that will happen even if you can't have more than one tuner (which is actually two tuners, because it's a dual tuner box to start with).

Currently, you can have up to five Extenders connected to the PC at once, when you include the PC that means six separate rooms. These can take direct advantage of any tuners connected to the PC. You also have access to the same (central) program guide at all locations, as well as access to all recorded content at all locations (music, photos, video, and other stuff too).



techm8n said:


> if the answer to my questions above is yes, I will plan to have have one MS Vista Media Center PC with 3 HDPC devices (equals to 6 sat lines total) connected to a Linksys Dual Band 802.11n wireless router. Living room will have an Xbox 360 as my media center extender and purchase 3 additional media center extenders for the other rooms all connected via wired or 802.11n dual band wireless adapters.


I'm no wireless master, but even with 802.11n I wouldn't expect HD video to multiple locations to be a smooth process. Hardwire is still the way to go if mutiple clients doing HD at the same time.

Chris


----------



## techm8n

Windows Vista Service Pack 1 is *tentatively *scheduled for release on Feb. 15 2008 (not confirmed by Microsoft). I hope that the DTV-HDPC support is in the SP1 release.



ChrisL01 said:


> I'm no wireless master, but even with 802.11n I wouldn't expect HD video to multiple locations to be a smooth process. Hardwire is still the way to go if mutiple clients doing HD at the same time.
> Chris


I'll try 802.11N dual-band adapters first. If it can't handle multiple HD streams, I'll run Cat5's to the MCEs.


----------



## ChrisL01

techm8n said:


> Windows Vista Service Pack 1 is *tentatively *scheduled for release on Feb. 15 2008 (not confirmed by Microsoft). I hope that the DTV-HDPC support is in the SP1 release.


It won't. A Media Center feature release will come at a later date.



techm8n said:


> I'll try 802.11N dual-band adapters first. If it can't handle multiple HD streams, I'll run Cat5's to the MCEs.


You can surly do an Extender or two over wireless, but still most people's experience of HD video over wireless is less than spectacular. Use CAT5 whenever possible.

Chris


----------



## iansilv

Man- cn you imagine i you could do the following:

hook up two or even 3 of these babies to a single media center server pc that uses some huge storage server to store hte recorded content, and access everything in media center pcs around the house? You could jsut schedule everythin you want to record and add storage as you want- not to mention runnin the sat cables ot one central place. 

I can only hope...


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

iansilv said:


> Man- cn you imagine i you could do the following:
> 
> hook up two or even 3 of these babies to a *single media center server pc that uses some huge storage server to store hte recorded content*, and access everything in media center pcs around the house? You could jsut schedule everythin you want to record and add storage as you want- not to mention runnin the sat cables ot one central place.
> 
> I can only hope...


Yes, this is certainly what has me drooling


----------



## mva5580

Ok, I have a concern here.

From that CSR response, the way they are wording that, this box is ONLY going to be able to store recordings on your PC? Are you actually going to be able to watch DirecTV through Windows Media Center, and be able to use your HTPC as a true all-in-one device?

That's what I thought this product originally was, but that CSR response has me worried. Because from that wording this product will only let you use the PC to record programs set from the HD-DVR?

I need some major clarification. Because if you can't use this product to actually watch D* SD/HD programming on your HTPC, it doesn't have much use for me.


----------



## Jeremy W

mva5580 said:


> Are you actually going to be able to watch DirecTV through Windows Media Center, and be able to use your HTPC as a true all-in-one device?


Yes. Just calm down, CSRs make mis-informed statements all the time. No need to get worked up over them.


----------



## CJTE

Jeremy W said:


> Yes. Just calm down, CSRs make mis-informed statements all the time. No need to get worked up over them.


In this in particular instance, CSRs dont even KNOW about it.
They were barely given a debreifing here within the last 2 weeks about the AM21 and the DVR Scheduler


----------



## blownaway

Maybe you know this already. I spoke to DTV tonite and was told the HDPC-20 will be avalible "late 2008".:grin:


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

blownaway said:


> Maybe you know this already. I spoke to DTV tonite and was told the HDPC-20 will be avalible "late 2008".:grin:


Read 2 posts up


----------



## mrfatboy

I read thru 90% of this thread this morning. After having lunch with my friend and discussing it a question came up that I was not positive about. Sorry if it has been asked before.

When the HDPC comes out I'm thinking about getting the following setup.

1 HDPC
1 PC w/Vista Media Center
4 Xbox's (media extenders for each room)

From what I understand, each individual Xbox will be able to view either one of the 2 tuner channels (live or currently recording) OR playback a previous recording OR play music, photos, dvd, etc. Is this correct?

In other words, If the both tuners are currently recording 2 different programs, the living room xbox(media extender) can watch a prerecorded while the master bedroom Xbox (media extender) watches a difference prerecorded show or plays music, dvd, etc?

Can somebody verify if this is correct?

thanks in advance.


----------



## Jeremy W

mrfatboy said:


> From what I understand, each individual Xbox will be able to view either one of the 2 tuner channels (live or currently recording) OR playback a previous recording OR play music, photos, dvd, etc. Is this correct?


As long as your PC is powerful enough, this would work.


----------



## mrfatboy

Jeremy W said:


> As long as your PC is powerful enough, this would work.


good point! I forgot to ask about that question. How good/fast of a PC would I need? I know it's only a questimate now. Assume worst case senario - Both tuners recording and each of the 4 xbox's playing a prerecord show. Would a Quad core (Q6600) be enough? Or are we talking about building some super high end computer?


----------



## Deezul

mrfatboy said:


> good point! I forgot to ask about that question. How good/fast of a PC would I need? I know it's only a questimate now. Assume worst case senario - Both tuners recording and each of the 4 xbox's playing a prerecord show. Would a Quad core (Q6600) be enough? Or are we talking about building some super high end computer?


The PC doesn't do any of the processing of the picture - the 360 does. I have a TV card on my HP laptop. I would get an occasional skip or stutter when watching TV on it. But when using my 360 to watch, I never had any issues. So I don't think it's as processor intensive as much as it is bandwidth intensive. But I might be wrong. Once the HDPC comes out, I may swap out my two remaining HD TiVos, or else one HD Tivo and one HR20 for one of these and use the 360s I have. I don't think I'll go so far as to replace all my D* boxes, as I still don't really like the Media Center interface compared to TiVo or the D* one.


----------



## smiddy

Wow, 633 posts. I wonder if there is an updated timeline on this puppy. But I don't wish to read all the posts. Does anyone have any information as to potential release date?


----------



## P Smith

#628


----------



## smiddy

Yikes! I was hoping maybe a couple of months. That means likely a year from now.


----------



## P Smith

I have strong feeling it's never happen - see my post about ABA-1020/1030 PC boards.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

P Smith said:


> I have strong feeling it's never happen - see my post about ABA-1020/1030 PC boards.


What the HDPC-20 noting happening?
Or something else


----------



## Earl Bonovich

smiddy said:


> Wow, 633 posts. I wonder if there is an updated timeline on this puppy. But I don't wish to read all the posts. Does anyone have any information as to potential release date?


No there is no updated timeline on this...
Nor were we ever provided a solid timeline...

Anything posted, is just speculation.

There probable won't be until Microsoft makes progress on their end of the equation.


----------



## P Smith

MS have long history of never finished projects, so this one can be in same line. Guiding to vaporware status.


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

P Smith said:


> MS have long history of never finished projects, so this one can be in same line. Guiding to vaporware status.


But...but...it had a glossy pamphlet at CES 

They really didn't even announce it at CES. They certainly haven't set a release date for it. How can it be vaporware while it's still being developed?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Well... DIRECTV didn't announce anything at CES this year. They did show off several items, which we reported about, of course.


----------



## dbears

I've been sitting on the fence here. I currently have two HR20's and one HD-Tivo. One HR20 is in the media room, also hooked up to my HTPC thru s-video. It's a clunky process at best. The other HR20 is in the family room and the HR10 is in a bedroom with only one wire sent to it. Ultimately, I'd like to have HD Directv in three other bedrooms for a total of six connections. I have a couple of options:

1) All four bedrooms have only one line going into them. So I can run another line to each of the rooms and go buy some HR20's to fill them up. Of course I'll need another multi-switch.
2) I can start messing with an SWM and go buy some HR20's. I fear I will quickly fill up the limit on the SWM multi-switch and I further fear that the underlying cable used in the house were quite cheap and I might not have enough strength to split it that much anyway.
3) I can continue waiting for the HDPC since all the rooms are already networked. In that case, i can simply by inexpensive HTPC throughout the house and be good to go. The HTPC can also be used for streaming DVD's and many other uses. 

I was at the CES a few years back when Directv first announced the concept of integrating their signal into a Vista based HTPC. This was before Vista was even released. Fifteen months later I purchased a Vista based HTPC which is absolutely terrific in so many respects and the only thing I'm missing now is the integration of Directv. I only wish I KNEW this was going to happen and what sort of timeframe. In the mean-time I wait and debate.

Thoughts, comments?


----------



## BudShark

It sounds like SWM is your best option. You can have multiple SWMs, so that will work, just be a little costly.

For item 3 - the HTPC won't work. There is no way to make HTPCs be slaves to a master HTPC. You'd have to buy Xbox360s. But even then, you'd be limited to recorded shows or 2 live streams. Doesn't sound like what you want.

I think your best bet is SWM (or rewire). Then you'd be good to go. You say Chesterfield, MO - so you have a basement right? Siding on the exterior? It should be easy to run cables compared to other areas of the country if you go the rewire route.

Chris


----------



## mrfatboy

BudShark said:


> For item 3 - the HTPC won't work. There is no way to make HTPCs be slaves to a master HTPC. You'd have to buy Xbox360s. But even then, you'd be limited to recorded shows or 2 live streams. Doesn't sound like what you want.
> 
> Chris


Or precorded shows


----------



## putty469

dbears, I believe you can use a high pass splitter between the SWM8 and your receivers. So I would not worry about filling it up. One point of the SWM architecture moving forward is to help customers that have a house full of splitters and the one cable wire sticking out of the house.


----------



## jodavis

I think his concern is exceeding the 8 channels available.


----------



## dbears

Thanks for the comments and I don't want to take this thread way off topic. Nevertheless, there's not much new to report on the HDPC so....

Yes, my concern was having too many HR20's for the SWM. Also, I thought I read you need some pristine runs with proper amplification to make it work. I was concerned about that.

I thought I heard that the new Vista release was going to allow you to use remote tuners on PC's and not just extenders. Frankly, I tried using the XBox360 as an extender and its just miserable playing DVDs stored on my server. I don't want to recode them.

I guess we won't know about the HDPC until it gets closer and it sounds like that's at least several months away.

Living in Chesterfield gives some flexibility but I have a finished basement and I just recently had someone come in to run Cat5e to all the bedrooms upstairs but didn't run another cable line. I guess SWM's are quite a bit more expensive now than a simple multi-switch but that might change.

This convergence of technology is quite exciting. As I said, I've been waiting for this for at least a couple of years now. If this works as expected, I think Directv will be able to start getting out of the hardware business and let the marketplace make "cards" for computers. 

I'm relatively new to this forum but had been part of Tivo Community and AVS for quite some time. I must say, I'm quite impressed with the scholarly nature of the people and the civility. 

Thanks again,

Mike (Da Bears)


----------



## HDTVFreak07

They BETTER make the HDPC20 a reality! I'd much rather use my Media Center as my guide. There's much more features on that system I could really use over DirecTV's UI or guide. Also on Media Center, while watching a program, I can find more information relating to a show being watched or find out what other program an actor is in. I also love using the MCEWeather, WAY better than using the Active button on the DVR we have (HR20).


----------



## JayB

CNet has an article today on "Whatever happened to the DirecTV/Microsoft alliance". I was going to post feedback on the HDPC-20, but Earl beat me to it, posting a link back to here. So, to support a little recursion, I thought I'd post a link to the CNet article here.

http://www.news.com/8301-13860_3-9866037-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5


----------



## djlong

This is the device that will have me switching from E*


----------



## P Smith

Prepare to wait for long time before you'll see it working.


----------



## djlong

I honestly wish there was at least a TIMEFRAME.. I'm not looking for a pecific date or anything like that but I have plans to take the plunge and go HD and I'd like to know what SEASON I'll be doing that.


----------



## Jeremy W

djlong said:


> I'd like to know what SEASON I'll be doing that.


It won't be this one, or the next. Probably not the one after that, either.


----------



## mrfatboy

I am just amazed why something like this is not on the market yet. How hard can it be? I have been looking for a home media solution for awhile now and there is nothing out there (at least that I can find) that can do the following:

Central HD PVR (record a show in one room and watch in another)
Access & view videos and pictures
Access & play music
etc

I know that Vista media center "sorta" does this stuff but there is always something 'cluncky" or just doesn't work quite right.


----------



## Jeremy W

mrfatboy said:


> How hard can it be?


It's not hard. It's the DRM that's holding it back.


----------



## P Smith

mrfatboy said:


> I am just amazed why something like this is not on the market yet. How hard can it be? I have been looking for a home media solution for awhile now and there is nothing out there (at least that I can find) that can do the following:
> 
> Central HD PVR (record a show in one room and watch in another)
> Access & view videos and pictures
> Access & play music
> etc
> 
> I know that Vista media center "sorta" does this stuff but there is always something 'cluncky" or just doesn't work quite right.


They are scare to death if you somehow will get your recordings out of their equipment. 
So the history is 10+ years old and started when ABA-1020/1030 has been manufactured.


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

Jeremy W said:


> It won't be this one, or the next. Probably not the one after that, either.


You should clarify that this isn't based off any actual facts shared in this thread. It's all just a guess.

Apparently it's a fact that the support needed from Microsoft won't be in Vista SP1. So that means a future release. Whether it means it's something that could be downloaded, or if it'll have to wait for a full OS release remains to be seen.


----------



## Jeremy W

OverThereTooMuch said:


> You should clarify that this isn't based off any actual facts shared in this thread. It's all just a guess.


So because it's not based off any facts shared in this thread, it's just a guess?


----------



## JayB

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Apparently it's a fact that the support needed from Microsoft won't be in Vista SP1. So that means a future release. Whether it means it's something that could be downloaded, or if it'll have to wait for a full OS release remains to be seen.


You certainly may be right. You also certainly may be wrong. There's nothing that says the box won't ship with a handy CD or DVD with all the needed software on it - not a service pack, not a new OS, just a few drivers. But at this point, we just don't know.


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

Jeremy W said:


> So because it's not based off any facts shared in this thread, it's just a guess?


Sorry, didn't mean to imply that facts only exist in this thread 

So were you sharing your personal opinion, or facts?

If it's facts, what's the source?

Knowing the source is important, because they might not have the latest info. And sometimes the facts change later, and maybe your original source didn't get an update.


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

JayB said:


> You certainly may be right. You also certainly may be wrong. There's nothing that says the box won't ship with a handy CD or DVD with all the needed software on it - not a service pack, not a new OS, just a few drivers. *But at this point, we just don't know*.


Um...that's exactly what my post said.


----------



## Tom Robertson

This is a guess, only a guess. If this were a real time estimate, you'd be informed as to which channel to tune to in your area... 

Actually the first part is not guess--the hang up has been clearly identified as Microsoft's action to secure the content in a fashion that meets the approval from the content providers.

Now the comments get more and more guesslike: 1) there _seems_ to be more action on Microsoft's part. Very little concrete data, but the tea leaves are aligning in that direction.

So the real WAG (and that is an understatement) that I have is roughly toward the end of this year we should see something more tangible.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ChrisL01

P Smith said:


> They are scare to death if you somehow will get your recordings out of their equipment.
> So the history is 10+ years old and started when ABA-1020/1030 has been manufactured.


There is no recordings in "their equipment." The tuner is just a tuner, it's not an STB.

Without a Media Center feature release, this D* tuner will never work. You can take that for speculation, or fact because it's the way it will work.

BTW, I'm not sure why DRM would be a big holdup at this point. The framework is there, it's not likely to change. If DRM has any part of a holdup, then it's on the policy side.

Vista SP1 doesn't add the added functionality, you need a Media Center feature release. Feel free to go back and read some of my previous posts that outline what is needed, or just consider it all pure speculation and just be prepared to wait unit near years end to actually get the product in your home.

Chris


----------



## Tom Robertson

Chris,

I don't think the DRM concept is the holdup but rather coding the software to support this aspect of DRM in a manner suitable to the content providers. Or perhaps the content providers are asking for a more secure DRM protocol?

One other possibility is Microsoft might have determined that they need to allow some sharing of the programming within a family network without violating the DRM requirements for not permitting sharing outside the family? (I suspect that is version two, actually.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ChrisL01

Tom Robertson said:


> Chris,
> 
> I don't think the DRM concept is the holdup but rather coding the software to support this aspect of DRM in a manner suitable to the content providers. Or perhaps the content providers are asking for a more secure DRM protocol?


This is highly unlikely as the existing pipeline already supports premium digital cable content via CableCARDs. CableLabs restrictions are about as hard as they get, requiring sales of the tuner themselves to only occur through OEMs, the PC must have a special BIOS that contains vendor specific information tied to each OEM, the content is wrapped in content protection before it hits the PC, and the PC is required to have a second special Windows product key to activate the use of the tuners.

I find it hard to believe that the same content owners are having issues with the pipeline that is already in use for their content (this BTW, has yet to be cracked in any manor).



Tom Robertson said:


> One other possibility is Microsoft might have determined that they need to allow some sharing of the programming within a family network without violating the DRM requirements for not permitting sharing outside the family? (I suspect that is version two, actually.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


This already exists today and in working practice. Content recorded from CableCARDs are wrapped in WMDRM and can be streamed to any Media Center Extender is using WMDRM-ND. This does exact what you describe above, and the D* tuner will allow the exact same using the exact same technologies.

Chris


----------



## Tom Robertson

Thanks, Chris! Excellent update.

Could it be enabling the hooks to the pipeline then? Final verification of the testing within WMDRM?

Thanks again,
Tom


----------



## ChrisL01

Again, I don't think it has anything to do with DRM. I've said in this thread (some 20 pages ago) that functionality will be included in the next Media Center feature releases. The means that its a part of the next Media Center release which would also include other new features, changes, etc.

As part of this update, Microsoft will basically be building a D* STB into the Media Center software. The tuner itself from D* is pretty dumb in comparison to everything else. The tuner likely just does the CA, grabs the video from the sat, maybe wraps it in a DVR-MS wrapper, and then it sends to Media Center. That's all. The tuner itself doesn't have guide functionality, it doesnt have a UI, it doesn't run a meaningful OS, etc. All of that stuff is Media Center on the PC.

The D* tuners brings a lot of new stuff to Media Center that isn't there now. H.264, in band guide data, etc. Just about all the stuff a standard D* does now, Media Center will also be doing.

That all takes time, and has to fit into existing development time. The next Media Center release isn't just for the D* tuner, it's a general update which means there is more to it then just D* functionality.

Chris


----------



## Tom Robertson

Chris,

I can buy all that. Now I understand what you referred to 20 pages ago. 

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Chris, you missed very important technical aspect - sat/tpn tune control from PC to the tuner.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Hurry Up With This Hdpc20 Already! I Want A Couple Now!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

P Smith said:


> Chris, you missed very important technical aspect - sat/tpn tune control from PC to the tuner.


I would expect that to be completely done by the HDPC-20 unit.
That the software would send the request to the HDPC-20... Give me "channel 20".

The HDPC-20 would then be responsible for identifying which SAT/TP "channel 20" is on, and then just stream that to the PC


----------



## P Smith

That's normal way to do it, but ask Chris about implemention of it in BDA drivers.


----------



## ChrisL01

I don't know enough about the technical side of BDA to really comment, but I'd expect the D* tuner to work about the same way as current CableCARD tuners. I believe PBDA IP is used in this case (new to Vista).

Chris


----------



## JayB

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Um...that's exactly what my post said.


Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying it would need to be some official public release, either a DL from MS or a new SP or OS.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Earl Bonovich said:


> I would expect that to be completely done by the HDPC-20 unit.
> That the software would send the request to the HDPC-20... Give me "channel 20".
> 
> The HDPC-20 would then be responsible for identifying which SAT/TP "channel 20" is on, and then just stream that to the PC


So would this also explain the need to run Vista (only)?


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So would this also explain the need to run Vista (only)?


No, but Microsoft is only putting the new stuff in Vista. It would be a whole lot more work to port it back to XP, so they decided not to.


----------



## P Smith

ChrisL01 said:


> I don't know enough about the technical side of BDA to really comment, but I'd expect the D* tuner to work about the same way as current CableCARD tuners. I believe PBDA IP is used in this case (new to Vista).
> 
> Chris


Sorry, but seems to me your technical knowledge is weak here. DiSEqC and 22 KHz and polarity control of sat tuners doesn't exist in CC QAM tuners.


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

P Smith said:


> Sorry, but seems to me your technical knowledge is weak here. DiSEqC and 22 KHz and polarity control of sat tuners doesn't exist in CC QAM tuners.


I think he meant as far as how it interfaces with Vista.

What is "sat/tpn tune control" exactly?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

OverThereTooMuch said:


> I think he meant as far as how it interfaces with Vista.
> 
> What is "sat/tpn tune control" exactly?


The tuner... is responsible to communicate with the LNB Assembly on the dish (or the multiswitch)... to get the proper SAT signal, and with in that SAT signal... the proper segment of transponders.

It is a mapping that DirecTV boxes contain...

Channel X is on SAT-Y / Transponder-Z


----------



## P Smith

OverThereTooMuch said:


> I think he meant as far as how it interfaces with Vista.
> 
> What is "sat/tpn tune control" exactly?


Look at a post above your.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> Sorry, but seems to me your technical knowledge is weak here. DiSEqC and 22 KHz and polarity control of sat tuners doesn't exist in CC QAM tuners.


And that's something that the HDPC20 can handle on it's own, the Media Center PC doesn't need to have any knowledge of that stuff. So control would be the same as a CableCARD tuner.


----------



## Tom Robertson

In fact, cablecard implementations do essentially the same thing: Windows requests a "channel", the cablecard or HDPC20 then converts that "channel" request into a frequency and subchannel assignment. (And listens all the time to updates in the data stream as to what a channel converts to as far as frequency/subchannel assignment. Both cable and satellite can/do change what assignments channels are found on.)

In the case of DIRECTV, to tune to a "channel" you need to know: Which satellite slot, which frequency band (Ku, Ka-hi, or ka-lo), which frequency in that band, and then which data stream within that transponder (frequency.)

Then the tuner translates that into a set of signals to get the switch to send the right data stream(s) from the dish to the tuner.

The signals include a voltage, and a tone impressed upon the coax to the switch. The tone can also include even more signaling information to enable a BBC or the optional port dishes (72.5 or 95).

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Sorry, but you guys just skimming very easy level, but a devil in the details. 
Please don't mix cable/terrestrial frequency selection and sat/tpn switching schemes. That's why we have problem with BDA specs !


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> Sorry, but you guys just skimming very easy level, but a devil in the details.
> Please don't mix cable/terrestrial frequency selection and sat/tpn switching schemes. That's why we have problem with BDA specs !


The devil is in the details *of the HDPC20*. We're not saying that all of this stuff won't have to be dealt with for this whole project, but Media Center itself doesn't have to deal with any of it. Media Center goes as far as telling the HDPC20 what channel it wants, and that's it. The HDPC20 figures out how to get the channel to Media Center, and Media Center doesn't care about any of the behind-the-scenes stuff.


----------



## gcisko

Jeremy W said:


> The devil is in the details *of the HDPC20*. We're not saying that all of this stuff won't have to be dealt with for this whole project, but Media Center itself doesn't have to deal with any of it. Media Center goes as far as telling the HDPC20 what channel it wants, and that's it. The HDPC20 figures out how to get the channel to Media Center, and Media Center doesn't care about any of the behind-the-scenes stuff.


How do you know this? Are you using the box???


----------



## Jeremy W

gcisko said:


> How do you know this? Are you using the box???


If I was, do you honestly think I could tell you?

It's just common sense for anyone who is familiar with the design of systems like this. Dedicated devices are way better at dedicated tasks than general devices trying to do all of the tasks. Offloading all of the DirecTV-specific stuff to the HDPC20 is just a sound design decision.


----------



## ChrisL01

P Smith said:


> Sorry, but you guys just skimming very easy level, but a devil in the details.
> Please don't mix cable/terrestrial frequency selection and sat/tpn switching schemes. That's why we have problem with BDA specs !


How do you know the BDA specs have not been updated for this? I keep telling everyone that this tuner needs more then a simple driver. If BDA can't handle the tuning the tuning aspect, there is no reason why it can't be updated for such. PDBA IP was designed for two things. One is CableCARD, and the other is premium satellite service. Feel free to download some of the public presentations that outline this. They have been working on this stuff for _years._

I can see that you guys are tired of any sort of speculation about how things will work, so I'll just leave you to argue about your technical side things and wait for the tuner to ship doing exactly what I've said it will.  If anyone has questions feel free to direct them at me. Jeremy W has the right idea about the tuning, but I guess no one will know until it ships.

Chris


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> No, but Microsoft is only putting the new stuff in Vista. It would be a whole lot more work to port it back to XP, so they decided not to.


Gotcha.

I have 2 new Vista Ultimate install CD's just sitting here waiting for an excuse to be put onto a newer PC....


----------



## houskamp

ChrisL01 said:


> How do you know the BDA specs have not been updated for this? I keep telling everyone that this tuner needs more then a simple driver. If BDA can't handle the tuning the tuning aspect, there is no reason why it can't be updated for such. PDBA IP was designed for two things. One is CableCARD, and the other is premium satellite service. Feel free to download some of the public presentations that outline this. They have been working on this stuff for _years._
> 
> I can see that you guys are tired of any sort of speculation about how things will work, so I'll just leave you to argue about your technical side things and wait for the tuner to ship doing exactly what I've said it will.  If anyone has questions feel free to direct them at me. Jeremy W has the right idea about the tuning, but I guess no one will know until it ships.
> 
> Chris


From his early posts where it explains who he (Chris) is I'll take his word on how it will work.. seems he has "contacts" in Microsoft like Earl has in Directv..


----------



## ChrisL01

P Smith said:


> ... So far BDA spec doesn't have any provision to that ! More, M$ known the problem from start didn't make any step in the direction for the years of BDA design.


Your probably right. D* already developed the hardware hand and hand with Microsoft but forgot to ask if Microsoft was already developing (or had developed) the software tuning aspect side of things. Does that sound at all reasonable to you?

BTW, are the PBDA-IP specs even available publicly?? If you have a link, I'd be great full but I don't believe they are published so I'm not sure why you say it can't be done.

This is the PBDA-IP that I'm talking about. The one that was developed for Vista with the concept of CableCARD (now shipping for 1+ years) and satellite services (just like D*).










You understand more about the technical side then me though, so maybe your right. It can't be done because BDA doesn't support it.

Chris


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

Earl Bonovich said:


> The tuner... is responsible to communicate with the LNB Assembly on the dish (or the multiswitch)... to get the proper SAT signal, and with in that SAT signal... the proper segment of transponders.
> 
> It is a mapping that DirecTV boxes contain...
> 
> Channel X is on SAT-Y / Transponder-Z


Ah, ok.

It's unlikely that the drivers will need to know anything about this.

I'd bet that they'll just have a USB HID interface on the tuner, and then inside the tuner they can do all of the work to deal with the transponders.


----------



## Extreme2KEclipse

I just have a quick comment/suggestion if its not already available?

Can we choose which guide the MCE will look at?

When I had my previous MCE, I don't recall having any major issues with Series Links or etc. But my R15 as well as others are having significant issues which everyone seems to be blaming on the guide data.

I would hate to spend the money just to end up with the same issues as my R15...

Other than that...I can't wait for this product to be released!


----------



## Jeremy W

Extreme2KEclipse said:


> Can we choose which guide the MCE will look at?


That question is way too detailed for where this product is at publically. Nobody can answer that for you right now.


----------



## ChrisL01

If Media Center is using in-band EPG data, then issues you see on the D15 would also be present in Media Center.

In Media Center is using an Internet based EPG, then the issues you see on the D15 might or might not be present in Media Center.

All signs point to in-band EPG data being used with this tuner, so if the issue with really with the quality of the EPG data then the same will happen in Media Center.

Chris


----------



## BarkingGhost

I think I'd still be interested in seeing 2-4 SATA2 ports on the back of my HR21's whereby I can 'add' disk space for an increased capacity in recording.


----------



## P Smith

BarkingGhost said:


> I think I'd still be interested in seeing 2-4 SATA2 ports on the back of my HR21's whereby I can 'add' disk space for an increased capacity in recording.


Seems to me you got wrong thread for the your post.


----------



## joe diamond

DTV could do this like Apple,

Enlist interested parties in a test program. Don't just kick it out the door. Could be a world beater. The first time a low experience HSP clown screws up an advanced media center the end will be in sight.

HDPC 20 SBCA certification?.....Nah!....better.

Joe


----------



## Jeremy W

I cannot imagine DirecTV allowing the HSP clowns to do anything with the HDPC20. I can see it being a 100% customer-installed device.


----------



## jhrain

I just want this, period. Running Vista Ultimate, so bring it on!

The sooner, the better.


----------



## kevinwmsn

I hope it is consumer installed device, but I can see a HSP involved if you need a cable run/dish upgrade to connect the device.


----------



## lguvenoz

ChrisL01 said:


> If Media Center is using in-band EPG data, then issues you see on the D15 would also be present in Media Center.
> 
> In Media Center is using an Internet based EPG, then the issues you see on the D15 might or might not be present in Media Center.
> 
> All signs point to in-band EPG data being used with this tuner, so if the issue with really with the quality of the EPG data then the same will happen in Media Center.
> 
> Chris


For those who are not Media Center proponents, be cautious about the statements. Windows Vista Media Center already works with DirecTV tuners, and has an integrated guide. There are two drawbacks: no HD as there is no capture card for HD, and it relies upon IR or serial cables to change the actual channel.

It is highly doubtful that much would ever be done to alter this basic operation. The DirecTV tuner should work like the CableCard units and any other capture card. The MCE software tells it a channel and it changes it. HD cable boxes often have firewire interfaces that can even do the channel change, plus stream HD to the MCE software. It's not officially supported by either Microsoft or the cable companies, but it does work today. DirecTV does not have his type of interface available (the high speed signal side) so we do not have that option.

The MCE software would use the guide data that it does today. Adding an additional layer of guide data is just asking for more problems. Why change something if it's not broken? Quite frankly the USB interface will have more than enough traffic on it for the signals so I would doubt they would want to consume resources to pull an extra EPG in addition to the ones already incorporated.

For me, I have Vista Ultimate SP1 (yes, the released version of SP1), and am hoping this tuner hits mainstream soon. I would love to have one, and quite frankly would probably retire at least one DirecTV DVR with it available.


----------



## ChrisL01

lguvenoz said:


> For those who are not Media Center proponents, be cautious about the statements. Windows Vista Media Center already works with DirecTV tuners, and has an integrated guide. There are two drawbacks: no HD as there is no capture card for HD, and it relies upon IR or serial cables to change the actual channel.
> 
> ....
> 
> The MCE software would use the guide data that it does today. Adding an additional layer of guide data is just asking for more problems. Why change something if it's not broken? Quite frankly the USB interface will have more than enough traffic on it for the signals so I would doubt they would want to consume resources to pull an extra EPG in addition to the ones already incorporated.


Because frankly, it is a broken concept.

In-band EPG data solves many problems that come from using Internet based EPGs, mainly in consistency and reliability. Adding to that, licensing of EPG data is very costly and prone to having to deal with a middle man to fix and troubleshoot issues (TMS). Why pay _millions_ to TMS when the data _in the stream_ is so much more valuable and reliable (and free!)? Not only do you save millions on licensing the data, but you don't need a dedicated team to handle the issues that arise. Remember, Media Center doesn't have a monthly fee for the EPG.

You might not believe that the in-band data is that big a deal, but in the grand scheme of things it is so much larger. 

Edit:
If you want a conformation about issues with Internet-based EPGs we added a subforum at The Green Button four months ago for people to report issues. As of today it has 675 posts, with hundreds more that are in the wrong forums and submitted through Microsoft's other channels. 675 posts in just four (4) months, mainly by enthusiasts of the product for missing channels, incorrect data, etc. All of this is non existent when you use the EPG in-band. If it's wrong, D* is the only ones who need to know.

Chris


----------



## lguvenoz

ChrisL01 said:


> Because frankly, it is a broken concept.
> 
> In-band EPG data solves many problems that come from using Internet based EPGs, mainly in consistency and reliability. Adding to that, licensing of EPG data is very costly and prone to having to deal with a middle man to fix and troubleshoot issues (TMS). Why pay _millions_ to TMS when the data _in the stream_ is so much more valuable and reliable (and free!)? Not only do you save millions on licensing the data, but you don't need a dedicated team to handle the issues that arise. Remember, Media Center doesn't have a monthly fee for the EPG.
> 
> You might not believe that the in-band data is that big a deal, but in the grand scheme of things it is so much larger.
> 
> Edit:
> If you want a conformation about issues with Internet-based EPGs we added a subforum at The Green Button four months ago for people to report issues. As of today it has 675 posts, with hundreds more that are in the wrong forums and submitted through Microsoft's other channels. 675 posts in just four (4) months, mainly by enthusiasts of the product for missing channels, incorrect data, etc. All of this is non existent when you use the EPG in-band. If it's wrong, D* is the only ones who need to know.
> 
> Chris


I have seen many of the issues you are referring to, but quite frankly in 2+ years of usage have never had an EPG issue with DirecTV and MCE (other than when I set my HTPC to the wrong time zone....  ). Perhaps I am lucky, but I consider this a stellar track record. I am not sure of how the locals fit in the mix when MCE pulls the DirecTV lineup, but it's pretty robust here in the Chicago area based upon experience.

The problem is that for Microsft to deviate from the current standards for the EPG requires a change within MCE. Additionally this change might or might not support anyone other than DirecTV so the onus is on DirecTV to convince Microsoft it is a worthwhile change. Maybe that was the holdup with the DirecTV tuner?? Could be, but I would personally be surprised.


----------



## P Smith

lguvenoz said:


> <...>
> It is highly doubtful that much would ever be done to alter this basic operation. The DirecTV tuner should work like the CableCard units and any other capture card. *The MCE software tells it a channel and it changes it. * HD cable boxes often have firewire interfaces that can even do the channel change, plus stream HD to the MCE software. It's not officially supported by either Microsoft or the cable companies, but it does work today. DirecTV does not have his type of interface available (the high speed signal side) so we do not have that option.
> 
> <..>


You mistakenly assign same functions and same control to SAT tuners as to CableCARD.
I pointed already - they are DIFFERENT !

Sat tuner doesn't know which sat ie switch/port should be selected when you click on particular channel. MCE or other front-end must do control of the sat-tuner and must send commands to switch or/and LNBF.

I don't get why such rhetoric came from ppl who knows only UI and do push buttons on remote.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> Sat tuner doesn't know which sat ie switch/port should be selected when you click on particular channel. MCE or other front-end must do control of the sat-tuner and must send commands to switch or/and LNBF.


The HDPC20 knows how to access the channels. MCE doesn't have to worry about all of these details.


----------



## JayB

Jeremy W said:


> I cannot imagine DirecTV allowing the HSP clowns to do anything with the HDPC20. I can see it being a 100% customer-installed device.


I very much hope so. I don't like people who know what thier doing touch my machines and I certainly wouldn't let the moron who did my HD install touch it (unsecured cable, loose dish so wind pushed it off alignment, leaks in the roof, didn't run the right number of cables from the LNBs, told the tuner I had a 3 LNB when it was a 5...).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I believe the intent on the HDPC20 is to indeed have it be a 100% customer-installed device.


----------



## ChrisL01

lguvenoz said:


> I have seen many of the issues you are referring to, but quite frankly in 2+ years of usage have never had an EPG issue with DirecTV and MCE (other than when I set my HTPC to the wrong time zone....  ). Perhaps I am lucky, but I consider this a stellar track record. I am not sure of how the locals fit in the mix when MCE pulls the DirecTV lineup, but it's pretty robust here in the Chicago area based upon experience.
> 
> The problem is that for Microsft to deviate from the current standards for the EPG requires a change within MCE. Additionally this change might or might not support anyone other than DirecTV so the onus is on DirecTV to convince Microsoft it is a worthwhile change. Maybe that was the holdup with the DirecTV tuner?? Could be, but I would personally be surprised.


You're kind of assuming that only small changes are needed for the tuner to work in the first place, this, sadly is wrong. There are tons of changes behind the scenes that are happening for this tuner, in-band EPG data is only one small part of it.

I doubt it's the "holdup", the "holdup" is more like a release schedule for the next Media Center release. Just because you have a picture of the tuner doesn't mean it just works with Vista already. SP1 didn't do anything to make this tuner work.



P Smith said:


> You mistakenly assign same functions and same control to SAT tuners as to CableCARD.
> I pointed already - they are DIFFERENT !
> 
> Sat tuner doesn't know which sat ie switch/port should be selected when you click on particular channel. MCE or other front-end must do control of the sat-tuner and must send commands to switch or/and LNBF.
> 
> I don't get why such rhetoric came from ppl who knows only UI and do push buttons on remote.


Maybe you can help me understand the process in which you think this works.

Instead of "Media Center" telling the "Tuner" to change to a specific channel, which undoubtedly sends commands to the switch/LNB how does your process work? I'm not sure I understand your train of thought, but maybe you can explain it for everyone.

Chris


----------



## P Smith

Chris, I don't think ppl here care and understand internal processes of data/control flow in such setup. The thread is for end users and discussing SW/HW problems will create more noise but knowledge.


----------



## Grentz

Jeremy W said:


> The HDPC20 knows how to access the channels. MCE doesn't have to worry about all of these details.


Agreed, there is no reason it could not take the Channel Number command from MCE and then internally interpret into the correct SAT/LNB command.

This is obviously not going to be a standard D* tuner and there will be some differences.


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Chris, I don't think ppl here care and understand internal processes of data/control flow in such setup. The thread is for end users and discussing SW/HW problems will create more noise but knowledge.


I guess you'd likely be wrong on that point. 

Maybe we don't want ALL the tiny nuances and details, but surely some well thought and well written description furthering the discussion is possible and warranted.

I contend that there is/will be away for MCE to tell a device: give me data for this "channel" and the device doing all that is necessary to supply that data or an error message (like not authorized.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Oh well, then show me what chips used in the box. So far it has been positioned as *dual sat tuner*, not like that smart device what you try to convince me. Now, if you would tell me how existing sat tuners ( I know how they are controlling now, so please no BS or lamer suggestions ) in DVR and IRDs can follow your idea to accept ch# and tune to proper LNBF with right polarity.

Yeah, guys, really - if you don't know this subject you gonna lost the battle.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> So far it has been positioned as *dual sat tuner*, not like that smart device what you try to convince me.


What do you suggest? "Dual satellite tuner with the capability to store and interpret channel maps"? That's not how any product is positioned. Do you honestly expect marketing materials at CES to discuss minutia such as the exact way tuning is accomplished? You are being completely unreasonable.


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Oh well, then show me what chips used in the box. So far it has been positioned as *dual sat tuner*, not like that smart device what you try to convince me. Now, if you would tell me how existing sat tuners ( I know how they are controlling now, so please no BS or lamer suggestions ) in DVR and IRDs can follow your idea to accept ch# and tune to proper LNBF with right polarity.
> 
> Yeah, guys, really - if you don't know this subject you gonna lost the battle.


If your only argument is "all the current tuner cards work this way", I have to ask: How many are in their own cabinet connected at the HDPC20 is? If this has a different form factor, perhaps it has a different use/design...

This is a DIRECTV dual tuner IRD built for a PC, not a dual satellite tuner card.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

"This is a DIRECTV dual tuner IRD built for a PC, not a dual satellite tuner card" - if you so sure, then it could works. 
But I'll wait for tear-down.


----------



## lguvenoz

Tom Robertson said:


> If your only argument is "all the current tuner cards work this way", I have to ask: How many are in their own cabinet connected at the HDPC20 is? If this has a different form factor, perhaps it has a different use/design...
> 
> This is a DIRECTV dual tuner IRD built for a PC, not a dual satellite tuner card.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom,

I am glad to see you chiming in on this discussion. A couple of thoughts...

There are many tuner devices that plug in via USB. Best Buy carries dozens of them. Now that MCE has snuck its way into laptops people are always clammoring for connectivity to get TV signals. Frankly I used a USB ATSC OTA tuner to test out HD under Vista in my setup.

The reality is that I expect that DirecTV would create several potential devices that show up in the OS to add functionality. First and foremost the tuner. Microsoft will not rewrite MCE to make it treat DirecTV special. I would be shocked and frankly concerned if they did. That said I would expect that the new DirecTV box will appear as any other tuner or capture device does to MCE. It minimizes complexity, and keeps it simple.

That said I have done a lot of work on serial DirecTV controller software and have worked a lot in that area of MCE. The OS simply sends a "tune to this channel" request to the device, and the device is responsible for figuring it out. The capture side of things is simply responsible for streaming a file in a supported codec to the OS to store on disk or render to the display. Unavailable channels can throw an error that the OS can handle. The stream of data itself can include DRM data to provide the "authorization" side of the equation and many rumors are that DirecTV has been concerned that DRM was not complete in Vista (which it wasn't, but was pretty much closed up with SP1).

If DirecTV wants to enhance the guide side of the equation with in-band data I would expect that this would be accomplished by providing another device type that shows up under MCE, and that the device would interface with the EPG system within MCE. The "Channels I Get" side would definite benefit from this, but I would be concerned that DirecTV in-band data is not complete enough to deliver all of the MCE EPG functionality (search, full synopsis, all actor data, movie covers, etc.). This is possible, but I would also expect that DirecTV would be concerned about the bandwidth over the single USB interface. I am not definite, but would be surprised to see DirecTV make a lot of waves in this area with a first release. "Channels I Get" could be implemented from day 1 with the "channel scan" setup logic in place today. It would try to tune to all DirecTV channels, and then adjust the guide accordingly.

Again, glad to have you in the discussion. You always bring a little level-headedness to it....

Lewis


----------



## lguvenoz

Another item on a very technical level.

As someone who has spent time in the eventing side of MCE I can say that one reason that they might wait for the new Fiji release of MCE is that the current event logic around channel changing is ugly. I am hopeful that they are going for something a bit easier to tap into.


----------



## ChrisL01

Lewis: I'm not sure what bandwidth over USB has to do with anything. You make it seem as if there isn't the bandwidth needed and/or that features like in-band EPG data would saturate the link.

As for channel changing, I assume you have not used a CableCARD tuner within Media Center. CableCARD most directly relates to what you are going to see from this D* tuner. There is no IR blasting, there is no serial control. The PC will communicate with the tuner, which is not a standard D* STB. Instead it is actually a standalone tuner. The experience will be much greater then your standard IR setup.

I know that a lot of people here tend to think there are not major changes happening for this tuner, but sadly it's just wrong. This Media Center update has been in the works for nearly two years, to think that major changes are not coming in terms of the architecture is a bit misguided. Also, DRM isn't the issue, and SP1 didn't change anything in terms of DRM. As I've brought up before there are lots of issues like in-band EPG data, H.264 support, and a whole lot more.

Lastly in terms of my beloved in-band EPG data again, the number one reason you will want to see this (and you will) is that it is required for a good PVR experience with live events. When an Internet based EPG is in use, the recording is simply stopped when it was initially scheduled to (plus a few minutes of padding, if you have it enabled). However, using in-band you get the advantage of it being updated in near real-time. The recording in Media Center doesn't stop until the broadcast says that said program is over.

D* isn't doing the software side of this, so when you say D* shouldn't worry about it in the first release be aware that D* isn't the one developing the stuff. So just as Microsoft redid much of Media Center to allow for native digital cable, you are going to see them to the exact same to allow for native sat.

Chris


----------



## lguvenoz

Chris,

The bandwidth concern is a legitimate one. It's not that the in-band EPG has a lot of data, but the fact is that the HD signal itself does. If one considers a known quantity in the existing USB implemention of DVB-T/B hardware it mandates a minimum of 55Mbps of bandwidth per stream (even with H.264 support).

With two streams that comes to 110Mbps just for the signals with no account for control data. USB2.0 has a theoretical max of 480Mpbs so this alone should not hurt, but considering that many users could have more than one device plugged into the same USB bus (many of the ports on the back of a system share the same underlying bus as most systems today only have 2 seperate buses supporting 4 or more ports) the real throughput available could be significantly less (according to this article it's only about 320Mbps because of overhead http://www.everythingusb.com/usb2/faq.htm).

I also would hope that if implementation of in-band EPG is something that they are working on that they do not compromise the existing EPG data volume. The fact is that the current MCE EPG exposes a great deal more information than anything I have seen from DirecTV to date.

One other thing is that DRM has changed with SP1 for Vista. There were several little pieces missing in the initial release including only partial implementations of some of the internal protocols that provided full end-to-end DRM covering the information all the way from the hard drive->memory->CPU->graphics card->monitor. As I said that was a rumored issue so it is just thrown out there.

I will be curious as to the final product as European satellite users have had this working for quite some time under previous versions of MCE, and I know one person myself who hacked together a system for DirecTV (was not pretty, was not HD, and I would bet bordered on illegal) so this has been pulled off before today with satellite technology so I will be curious to know where the differences will show up.


----------



## ChrisL01

lguvenoz said:


> Chris,
> 
> The bandwidth concern is a legitimate one. It's not that the in-band EPG has a lot of data, but the fact is that the HD signal itself does. If one considers a known quantity in the existing USB implemention of DVB-T/B hardware it mandates a minimum of 55Mbps of bandwidth per stream (even with H.264 support).
> 
> With two streams that comes to 110Mbps just for the signals with no account for control data. USB2.0 has a theoretical max of 480Mpbs so this alone should not hurt, but considering that many users could have more than one device plugged into the same USB bus (many of the ports on the back of a system share the same underlying bus as most systems today only have 2 seperate buses supporting 4 or more ports) the real throughput available could be significantly less (according to this article it's only about 320Mbps because of overhead http://www.everythingusb.com/usb2/faq.htm).


That is clearly an important issue, but if D* was pumping out 55Mbps content then they could offer like 20 channels total. While I don't think anyone has exact numbers (if they do I'd love to know them), I'd expect MPEG-2 HD to be in the no greater then ~16Mbps and MPEG-4 HD in the area of <11Mbps.

Your really not developing this to work with multiple >50Mbps streams because it's just not feasible from the broadcast end. The same issue comes into play with all other signal types. ATSC is a max of 19.2Mbps (MPEG-2) and cable has a an something like 38Mbps max. This is hardly ever seen, never in most cases for cable. Another CableCARD example, Microsoft currently allows custom installers to offer four CableCARD tuners per PC. An extreme amount of testing goes into this, and you can bet the same will happen for D*.

The main thing to remember that the "max" bitrate is just not an issue, therefore your real world worst case is more like 40Mbps for two streams, 80Mbps for four streams. This is very doable and is actually less considering the vast majority of HD content is MPEG-4.



lguvenoz said:


> I also would hope that if implementation of in-band EPG is something that they are working on that they do not compromise the existing EPG data volume. The fact is that the current MCE EPG exposes a great deal more information than anything I have seen from DirecTV to date.


Right, and sadly when the in-band data is used that 14 day window you get with an Internet based EPG is gone in favor of 7 (or whatever D* currently has enabled).



lguvenoz said:


> I will be curious as to the final product as European satellite users have had this working for quite some time under previous versions of MCE, and I know one person myself who hacked together a system for DirecTV (was not pretty, was not HD, and I would bet bordered on illegal) so this has been pulled off before today with satellite technology so I will be curious to know where the differences will show up.


The key piece missing for European users is MPEG-4. While many have been doing DVB-S with CI within Media Center (unoffically) and in other programs, Media Center doesn't have the ability currently to do MPEG-4. The Stream Buffer Engine (SBE) that writes the DVR-MS files (Media Center's recording format) only supports MPEG-2.

This is updated for the D* tuner, so European users will likely get the same benefits at a later date. They need it more than anyone as even OTA broadcasts (DVB-T) are now in MPEG-4 in many parts of the world. This had made Media Center a useless product for these markets all together.

Chris


----------



## greynolds

ChrisL01 said:


> That is clearly an important issue, but if D* was pumping out 55Mbps content then they could offer like 20 channels total. While I don't think anyone has exact numbers (if they do I'd love to know them), I'd expect MPEG-2 HD to be in the no greater then ~16Mbps and MPEG-4 HD in the area of <11Mbps.


As a reference point, my BeyondTV recording server has 7 OTA tuners. Three of those tuners are Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-750 USB tuners (the others are PCI tuner cards). I have run tests recording HD channels on ALL SEVEN tuners simulaneously without any issues. So I would argue that USB bandwidth most likely is not going to be an issue unless other high data rate USB devices are also being used.


----------



## djlong

A lot of mention is made for the forthcoming update to Vista being needed before the HDPC20 can come out - does anyone know when that's scheduled?


----------



## lguvenoz

greynolds said:


> As a reference point, my BeyondTV recording server has 7 OTA tuners. Three of those tuners are Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-750 USB tuners (the others are PCI tuner cards). I have run tests recording HD channels on ALL SEVEN tuners simulaneously without any issues. So I would argue that USB bandwidth most likely is not going to be an issue unless other high data rate USB devices are also being used.


Now that's a good benchmark to hear (the 3 USB tuners are most interesting). It is definitely comforting to know someone has done that many streams in parallel. The only variable I would be curious to add is to try and hook up a USB hard drive to store the videos (this is a scenario I'll bet someone will try in the real world as most PCs lack eSata ports). Given your results this is probably the only way someone could really throw a monkey wrench in the works.


----------



## lguvenoz

djlong said:


> A lot of mention is made for the forthcoming update to Vista being needed before the HDPC20 can come out - does anyone know when that's scheduled?


The last I have heard is that it is in a "closed" beta at the moment, and is supposed to be released this fall.


----------



## ChrisL01

It's not even in closed beta...

Chris


----------



## lguvenoz

ChrisL01 said:


> It's not even in closed beta...
> 
> Chris


If true, that's bad news as it was last year that MS was taking applications to join the beta. I haven't had the time to be too heavily involved so I passed on the application process when it was open.


----------



## Bathel

I don't normally get involved in the technical debates, mostly because I don't have near the knowledge that you guys do... so please be nice when I post this possible very stupid and time wasting idea....

When debating how this box will work with MCE, are we assuming that it will use the microsoft TV interface? Why couldn't DTV just write a MCE plug in and use their own software in MCE to control the box, display video, control guide data and search features?

Ok ... start pointing out my stupidity.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Bathel said:


> When debating how this box will work with MCE, are we assuming that it will use the microsoft TV interface? Why couldn't DTV just write a MCE plug in and use there own software in MCE to control the box?


Because Microsoft has decided they are going to basically completely change "MCE"....

And the plugin model, hasn't been all that successfull.

And they decided to work with Microsoft of the project.


----------



## ChrisL01

Bathel said:


> I don't normally get involved in the technical debates, mostly because I don't have near the knowledge that you guys do... so please be nice when I post this possible very stupid and time wasting idea....
> 
> When debating how this box will work with MCE, are we assuming that it will use the microsoft TV interface? Why couldn't DTV just write a MCE plug in and use their own software in MCE to control the box, display video, control guide data and search features?
> 
> Ok ... start pointing out my stupidity.


Even if D* did a software plug-in, they would still be reliant on Microsoft changing underlaying parts of Windows and Media Center. The biggest example here is still H.264. No way D* would do a tuner at this point that didn't support H.264, you would cut out any market that actually wanted this device, etc, etc.

No matter who makes the software, they depend on Microsoft updating what's called SBE, basically the component of Windows that allows writing DVR-MS files. SBE currently only works with MPEG-2, your all those new H.264 channels would not work.

Same goes for the underlaying software components that actually allow communication with the tuner from Windows. D* "could" do a plug-in, but within the core technologies in Windows they can't tune video from within Windows (this is highly subject to the fact that this recorded content must be protected when it hits the PC).

Lastly, anything developed must work within the Media Center Extender architecture that has already been defined. So, for example if such a plug-in was more like an external EXE it wouldn't be able to remote to Extenders like the Xbox 360.

Basically, no matter who develops the software you are still dependent on Microsoft. However, the main issue with a "plug-in" is the hooks within Media Center that still need to work. You don't want two methods for guide setup, you don't want to actual guides, etc.

Chris


----------



## Tom Robertson

Bathel said:


> I don't normally get involved in the technical debates, mostly because I don't have near the knowledge that you guys do... so please be nice when I post this possible very stupid and time wasting idea....
> 
> When debating how this box will work with MCE, are we assuming that it will use the microsoft TV interface? Why couldn't DTV just write a MCE plug in and use their own software in MCE to control the box, display video, control guide data and search features?
> 
> Ok ... start pointing out my stupidity.


This is definitely not a stupid post, not by any means whatsoever. It might be a tiny bit ignorant, meant in the very best way (my ignorance is SOOOO much greater than my knowledge).

Two things prove this is not a stupid question: 1) you know you don't know and are willing to ask (this is a biggie), 2) you ask a question showing you have thought as far as you can about this within your knowledge and pose a question that demonstrates your critical thinking.

Earl has explained that while your approach is generally sound and is used many times in software, Microsoft found it didn't work as well in practice as hoped. (Don't know the details myself.)

Good question,
Tom


----------



## iansilv

Has anyone been able to determine if this thing will be able to be connected to a central media server and have Vista MCE clients around the house access it through a network and access the dvr files it stores through a network? I would like to connect two of these to a single server, or if USB is a bottle neck then one to a computer and another to another computer and access them from each room. It would really cut down clutter. Then, with SSD drives in each client ...


----------



## Jeremy W

iansilv said:


> Has anyone been able to determine if this thing will be able to be connected to a central media server and have Vista MCE clients around the house access it through a network and access the dvr files it stores through a network?


Can you even do that now with regular analog cable or ATSC tuners? I thought the only way to accomplish that was to use Media Center Extenders.


----------



## P Smith

iansilv said:


> Has anyone been able to determine if this thing will be able to be connected to a central media server and have Vista MCE clients around the house access it through a network and access the dvr files it stores through a network? I would like to connect two of these to a single server, or if USB is a bottle neck then one to a computer and another to another computer and access them from each room. It would really cut down clutter. Then, with SSD drives in each client ...


How ? This thing never been show in working environment.


----------



## scuba_tim

djlong said:


> A lot of mention is made for the forthcoming update to Vista being needed before the HDPC20 can come out - does anyone know when that's scheduled?


Vista SP1 is out there, now the question is does this fix what DirecTV needed to get fiexed to bring on the HDPC20?


----------



## P Smith

Nope.


----------



## Tom Robertson

scuba_tim said:


> Vista SP1 is out there, now the question is does this fix what DirecTV needed to get fiexed to bring on the HDPC20?


To expound upon the answer you already have, no it does not. The fix Microsoft apparently needs to make is in major set of modules for Media Player that seems to go beyond the extender technologies into another technology. I'm not sure what exactly, alas.

We'll likely see a set of upgrades for Media player that will contain the fix. (Or maybe all rolled into SP2?)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## iansilv

Jeremy W said:


> Can you even do that now with regular analog cable or ATSC tuners? I thought the only way to accomplish that was to use Media Center Extenders.


I thought you could have a cable card unit- like the niveus system connected to central server and use vista mce computers to pull stuff including live tv through a network.


----------



## Jeremy W

iansilv said:


> I thought you could have a cable card unit- like the niveus system connected to central server and use vista mce computers to pull stuff including live tv through a network.


I'm far from a Media Center expert, but I just didn't think you could do that. I could very well be wrong though.


----------



## cmziggy

Jeremy W said:


> I'm far from a Media Center expert, but I just didn't think you could do that. I could very well be wrong though.


The dream way this will work is that you have 1 machine running Windows Vista with enough storage with the HDPC-20 attached to it.. ( Possible a second one to have 4 tuners all together). Then have Media Center extenders( not other vista systems) placed all though out your house. XBox360 is an extender. HP and Linksys both have extender out. Also alot of TV makers were showing off TV's that had media center extenders built into the unit directly at this years CES show. Now each Server I believe can serve up to 5 extenders, all able to pull the same content from the server.

I currently have a Vista machine with it running Media Center with my XBox360 getting content from it. I am just waiting to get my hands on these HDPC-20's I can then drop all my HR20's and HR15's around the house. I then could watch any show from any TV, not just from the box that had the season pass setup on it.


----------



## greynolds

cmziggy said:


> The dream way this will work is that you have 1 machine running Windows Vista with enough storage with the HDPC-20 attached to it.. ( Possible a second one to have 4 tuners all together). Then have Media Center extenders( not other vista systems) placed all though out your house.


In my case I already have a PC in my home theater system which I use for watching DVD's (TheaterTek), Bluray & HD DVD (PowerDVD), HDTV (BeyondTV Link), listen to music, etc. I have another system in another part of the house with lots of disk space and 7 OTA HD tuner cards running BeyondTV Server.

Rather than purchase and add a media center extender to my system, I would much rather upgrade the existing PC's to Vista and use Media Center to watch content that was recorded on another Vista Media Center system elsewhere in the house. It would make perfect sense (at least to me) to allow Vista itself to be a media center extender.


----------



## cmziggy

It would make perfect sense (at least to me) to allow Vista itself to be a media center extender.[/QUOTE]

I would aggree with that, they should allow other Vista machines or even older XP or Mac systems to pull content from the Vista Media Center system.


----------



## ChrisL01

iansilv said:


> Has anyone been able to determine if this thing will be able to be connected to a central media server and have Vista MCE clients around the house access it through a network and access the dvr files it stores through a network? I would like to connect two of these to a single server, or if USB is a bottle neck then one to a computer and another to another computer and access them from each room. It would really cut down clutter. Then, with SSD drives in each client ...


This was kind of part of the idea for the CableCARD tuner that is out now, but instead of the tuner being accessible to various PCs it actually just connects to a single PC via USB and records centrally to then distribute content to the Media Center Extenders pointed out above.

The Niveus tuner (which is really just two ATI tuners in a custom case) will only interact with a Niveus PC and connected Extenders (Niveus has their own called the EDGE that looks just like the rest of their PCs).

I guess if D* wanted to they could make it a truly "networked tuner," but at this point it doesn't look like that's the method. There is one ATSC/QAM tuner on the market that does this today, the HDHomeRun.



greynolds said:


> In my case I already have a PC in my home theater system which I use for watching DVD's (TheaterTek), Bluray & HD DVD (PowerDVD), HDTV (BeyondTV Link), listen to music, etc. I have another system in another part of the house with lots of disk space and 7 OTA HD tuner cards running BeyondTV Server.
> 
> Rather than purchase and add a media center extender to my system, I would much rather upgrade the existing PC's to Vista and use Media Center to watch content that was recorded on another Vista Media Center system elsewhere in the house. It would make perfect sense (at least to me) to allow Vista itself to be a media center extender.


To those who don't follow Media Center this is the concept behind a never released application/concept known as Softsled (or a Software Extender). While you can share recorded content between PCs today, you can't share protected recordings with anything but Media Center Extenders. If we had a Software Extender the thought is that the content protection issues would be solved and thus enable streaming and sharing of all this content to other PCs.

At this point we don't have anything like this.

Chris


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## Jeremy W

ChrisL01 said:


> you can't share protected recordings with anything but Media Center Extenders.


That's what I thought, thanks for the definitive answer.


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## greynolds

ChrisL01 said:


> To those who don't follow Media Center this is the concept behind a never released application/concept known as Softsled (or a Software Extender). While you can share recorded content between PCs today, you can't share protected recordings with anything but Media Center Extenders. If we had a Software Extender the thought is that the content protection issues would be solved and thus enable streaming and sharing of all this content to other PCs.
> 
> At this point we don't have anything like this.


What I'll probably end up doing for now is move my recording PC into my home theater system. This will have my OTA HD tuners (probably scaled back to 3 or 4, as I really don't need 7), a pair of the new HDPC20's (giving me 4 DirecTV tuners) and 4+ TB of storage. Instead of a vertical tower case, I'll most likely convert this system to a HTPC case (but one with room for lots of drives along the lines of the OrigenAE S21T - though something like it minus the 12" display would be preferable to save $$$).


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## iansilv

So... extenders stream recorded content around the house, Vista pcs wont... but Mymovies will not work on extenders, only vista pcs...

That is just lame. Lame I tell you! what si the thinking? Some DRM thing? Keeping us from rippin recorded content to disks? I just don't get it.


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## ChrisL01

greynolds said:


> What I'll probably end up doing for now is move my recording PC into my home theater system. This will have my OTA HD tuners (probably scaled back to 3 or 4, as I really don't need 7), a pair of the new HDPC20's (giving me 4 DirecTV tuners) and 4+ TB of storage. Instead of a vertical tower case, I'll most likely convert this system to a HTPC case (but one with room for lots of drives along the lines of the OrigenAE S21T - though something like it minus the 12" display would be preferable to save $$$).


Just don't forget the heating/cooling and noise factors of such a system.



iansilv said:


> So... extenders stream recorded content around the house, Vista pcs wont... but Mymovies will not work on extenders, only vista pcs...
> 
> That is just lame. Lame I tell you! what si the thinking? Some DRM thing? Keeping us from rippin recorded content to disks? I just don't get it.


My Movies works just fine on Extenders, I'm assuming the real issue you are referring to is the rather limited file format support that Extenders have. The Linksys DMA2100/DMA2200 and D-Link DSM-750 have increased file format support over that of the Xbox 360 Extender, but it's still no where near where it needs to be. On the plus side, the Linksys and D-Link do support MPEG-4 ASP (DivX/Xvid) and MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) out-of-the-box.

The DRM issues generally fall under the content providers. This is very evident with CableCARD where CableLabs (thus content owners) write very specific rules about where the content can go and how it has to be protected.

The key thing that Extenders do is that they stream content using WMDRM-ND, which basically just means it is a true stream with the content never touching a user accessible bus or sitting open on a hard drive (both are very easy to hack in todays world and get an unprotected digital stream).

If Microsoft ever figures out that a PC with Vista can do the same then we might get some sort of protected content sharing from PC-to-PC. This also opens up video/audio codec support for My Movies and other applications because Media Center works via DirectShow for video playback (so you just have to install a codec and it works, Extenders are closed so you can't do this).

Chris


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## greynolds

ChrisL01 said:


> Just don't forget the heating/cooling and noise factors of such a system.


Right - my only real concern is the heat (and perhaps noise) from the extra hard drives. The HDPC20 tuners would be external, so they wouldn't really be an issue. Several internal OTA HD tuners shouldn't be a problem. This box will end up replacing 2 DirecTV HD Tivo's and 1 DirecTV SD Tivo (all hacked and running dual hard drives), so the noise from the hard drives should be a wash.

My current HTPC has 2 sound cards, an Immersive Holo3D Faroudja scaler card, a passive Radeon HD 2600XT video card, Zalman CPU cooler, and is in a Zalman HD160 case. This system is pretty quiet and runs nice and cool.


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## iansilv

What i mean by "Works with mymovies" is that I can play my ripped dvd, hddvd and bluray collections through mymovies through an extender,a s though it was a pc. IF not, if I have to convert my dvds to some other codec, then I don't think it works. I just don't like the idea of having to convert my media around. It's frustrating. Unless I ma making it harder than it is, which I probably am...



ChrisL01 said:


> Just don't forget the heating/cooling and noise factors of such a system.
> 
> My Movies works just fine on Extenders, I'm assuming the real issue you are referring to is the rather limited file format support that Extenders have. The Linksys DMA2100/DMA2200 and D-Link DSM-750 have increased file format support over that of the Xbox 360 Extender, but it's still no where near where it needs to be. On the plus side, the Linksys and D-Link do support MPEG-4 ASP (DivX/Xvid) and MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) out-of-the-box.
> 
> The DRM issues generally fall under the content providers. This is very evident with CableCARD where CableLabs (thus content owners) write very specific rules about where the content can go and how it has to be protected.
> 
> The key thing that Extenders do is that they stream content using WMDRM-ND, which basically just means it is a true stream with the content never touching a user accessible bus or sitting open on a hard drive (both are very easy to hack in todays world and get an unprotected digital stream).
> 
> If Microsoft ever figures out that a PC with Vista can do the same then we might get some sort of protected content sharing from PC-to-PC. This also opens up video/audio codec support for My Movies and other applications because Media Center works via DirectShow for video playback (so you just have to install a codec and it works, Extenders are closed so you can't do this).
> 
> Chris


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## dbears

iansilv said:


> What i mean by "Works with mymovies" is that I can play my ripped dvd, hddvd and bluray collections through mymovies through an extender,a s though it was a pc. IF not, if I have to convert my dvds to some other codec, then I don't think it works. I just don't like the idea of having to convert my media around. It's frustrating. Unless I ma making it harder than it is, which I probably am...


I am in the exact same boat. It sounds like I'll need a PC and an extender at every TV to get both DVD content around the house and access all the Directv recordings. MyMovies is a great application. Converting all my discs to another format immediately causes the loss of the menu structure and the benefits that presents. This is very disappointing but I remain optimistic that someday MS will figure it out.

In the meantime, I wait...

Mike (Da Bears)


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## Elephanthead

This will make me switch to Vista, once it is available, time to run cat6 to all the TV spots! I assume there will be a unit that outpust HDMI that you can network to the main PC/server. I will obviously need 8 of these units to be able to record all Sunday ticket games for future viewing!


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## greynolds

Elephanthead said:


> This will make me switch to Vista, once it is available, time to run cat6 to all the TV spots! I assume there will be a unit that outpust HDMI that you can network to the main PC/server. I will obviously need 8 of these units to be able to record all Sunday ticket games for future viewing!


HDMI will be a function of your PC, not the HDPC20. The HDPC20 is simply a USB tuner (just like a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-950 or any number of other USB tuners) except that it receives DirecTV channels instead of OTA or cable channels. Vista Media Center and your PC will take care of all DVR functionality and HDMI output.


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## ChrisL01

Media Center beta is now immediate. Private D* tuner testing will likely be a part of it. More Info

Chris


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## scuba_tim

ChrisL01 said:


> Media Center beta is now immediate. Private D* tuner testing will likely be a part of it. More Info
> 
> Chris


Ver cool Chris, thanks for the update. Can you say when the NDA would be up, might help with the timeline... had to try anyway.


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## ChrisL01

Microsoft NDAs go from the start of the beta to the end of the beta (not set in stone). They don't do date-based NDAs for this kind of stuff, it's just whenever it ends.

Given the time periods of other Media Center betas, I wouldn't expect to see anything final until October at the earliest.

Chris


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## scuba_tim

Thanks for all the info Chris. Maybe CES 09 will have a full consumer ready experience.


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## Tonedeaf

Hypothetically speaking, if someone were to be accepted into the beta of this unit, are there confidentiality clauses in the hardware loan agreements?

Just curious as I am never good at reading those kinds of documents.


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## ChrisL01

Everything related to the beta is confidential.

Chris


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## SpoonsJTD

Hey Chris, any idea if there's an ear I could whisper in about trying to get into the beta? Long time DirecTV subscriber, I have Vista Ultimate already, I have an XBOX360, I did the tech edit for Windows Home Server for Dummies, and I'd really really like to test this thing.


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## Greg Alsobrook

SpoonsJTD said:


> I'd really really like to test this thing.


you and about 4,000 other members on this board..


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## nc88keyz

directv since the sat-a1 came out 
avid htpc user for very long time 
would love to test as well. 
used to be in tivo betas . 
but then they cut directivo users loose. 

i never recall seeing anything in regards to the HDPC20 enrollment. Supose you had to be in the right place at the right time

Have vista htpc running on a zalman touchscreen case. 
73 display at 5300ES hdmi switching reciever. 
Have a 616 switch sitting right behind the nest too 
Also have X360 with HD ..pre hdmi

**shameless begging**


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## Greg Alsobrook

might wanna go beg on microsoft.com... since they are the once conducting the beta...


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## houskamp

Believe Microsoft already sent all the invites already.. sorry guys..


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## BTDT

The solicitation for beta testers for this thing occurred over a year ago. I missed out as well. Sniff!


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## djlong

With my Dishplayer crashing two days ago and erasing everything I'd saved including all the timers... All I can say is that, when this thing hits the streets, I'm *there*. I already have a Windows Home Server that stores all the stuff I get off the net. Combining the HDPC20 and a Vista box with the rest of my network will make this seamless.


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## mhammett

So we aren't going to see this until 2009?


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## P Smith

I would say we will hear something about this in 2009.


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## Drew2k

mhammett said:


> So we aren't going to see this until 2009?


Check out this thread for some rumors on it: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=125889


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## Mightyram

tick tock this year is running out...maybe more info at the next CES Show


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## Jeremy W

Mightyram said:


> tick tock this year is running out...maybe more info at the next CES Show


I think it's safe to say the HDPC-20 will not be out this year.


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## curt8403

Jeremy W said:


> I think it's safe to say the HDPC-20 will not be out this year.


microsoft gutted Vista, so no HDPC20


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## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> microsoft gutted Vista, so no HDPC20


 The HDPC-20 was announced well after Vista was released...


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## djlong

It would be more appropriate to say that MS gutted "Fiji" - the Service pack release of Vista that was supposed to have support for the HD-PC20


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## Jeremy W

djlong said:


> It would be more appropriate to say that MS gutted "Fiji" - the Service pack release of Vista that was supposed to have support for the HD-PC20


Now that I can agree with.


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## P Smith

It would safe to say - as I posted at beginning of the thread - based on 10 years old experience with such devices (ABA-1020/ABA-1030), it was same vapoware and don't expect have it in a future.

Small market, low margin, a paranoya of MPAA & RIAA, a lot of SW development from third party companies (M$), etc.
Dead end. 

It was good only to taste a water .


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## scuba_tim

So, do folks think that DirecTV is done relying on Uncle Bill for developing products, since this is obviously not happening anytime soon (see multiple other threads). Or maybe DirecTV always realized the HDPC20 would never get anywhere.

According to their website, DirecTV's going with Adobe Air for their new Supercast client over Microsoft Silverlight. So maybe they are moving on.


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