# For once Swanni's right: This isn't "HD," FOX!



## Lord Vader

I hate to agree with Swanni here, but he's right. This NLCS broadcast isn't HD. I don't know WHAT it is, but high def it ain't! TBS's ALCS broadcast, however, rocks!

And we get to watch the World Series in this watered-down PQ? It's no better than their NFL broadcasts. (I'll take CBS's super-sharp 1080i any day!)


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## Hoosier205

Swanni is wrong. It is HD...it just isn't of the best quality. That doesn't change the fact that it is in fact, HD. 

His ridiculous statement about the widescreen announcement made by Joe Buck is another blunder. SD viewers are seeing the game in letterbox format. You know...widescreen.  Some SD viewers are confused and/or unhappy about this. That message was for them and directed them to a website for more information.

Swanni, once more, has absolutely no clue what he is talking about and the fact that he writes about HD topics is laughable.


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## sigma1914

This part caught my eye.


> ...three televisions, including a state-of-the-art $22,000 Home Theater system...


Maybe I should start a stupid blog & pretend I'm a reporter while stealing breaking news from sites to seem like an "expert." Then, I can build a sweet HT.


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## kiknwing

I thought the quality didn't look right. But what I what to know is why he has directv and comcast. Isn't this like mixing apples with poison oranges.


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## Lord Vader

Hoosier205 said:


> Swanni is wrong. It is HD...it just isn't of the best quality. That doesn't change the fact that it is in fact, HD.
> 
> His ridiculous statement about the widescreen announcement made by Joe Buck is another blunder. SD viewers are seeing the game in letterbox format. You know...widescreen.  Some SD viewers are confused and/or unhappy about this. That message was for them and directed them to a website for more information.
> 
> Swanni, once more, has absolutely no clue what he is talking about and the fact that he writes about HD topics is laughable.


I don't like him anymore than you do, but if this is FOX's idea of HD, it isn't "HD."


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## Hutchinshouse

Lord Vader said:


> I don't like him anymore than you do, but if this is FOX's idea of HD, it isn't "HD."


+1

No matter what it's called, it's not good. FOX HD is a joke. It looks like up-converted 480P.


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## Lord Vader

It makes me sometimes wonder why I got LASIK 21 months ago! Then again, even my contacts lenses wouldn't have helped with FOX's poor PQ.


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## mystic7

While FOX's 720p will always be noticeably poorer than a station that broadcasts in 1080i, I personally don't see what Swanni's talking about. Normally I would notice crappy upconverted 480p but the games look fine to me, and in fact they look like regular HD when re-broadcast on MLB Network.

I'll have to check today's re-broadcast, but I'd be surprised if I was wrong. Sometimes my Directv receiver will default to 720p after a power outage, and I notice the difference right away.


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## Lord Vader

Trust me. With eyes as powerful as mine, I can tell the difference.


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## Maruuk

Guys, it's simply 720p Fox Blur-O-Vision vs. TBS 1080i HD. On 720p Fox, all the detail in the stands blurs into mush, and the players develop slight blur outlines. I've had to suffer through this on all the Giants/Phillies games.

Over on TBS where I just watched the Yanks die die die (Yes!), the pic was crystal clear. Because TBS is in HD...1080i.

720p is fake HD, a curse on TV everywhere. Stamp it out wherever you can.

I'm so glad the truth is finally spreading across the land on this!

BTW, all ABC/ESPN sports are also in the same blurry 720p boat. Objects large in frame and medium to tight closeups on people will look ok, but when you go to the master shot, all the background detail that gives you the sense of being there turns to mush, and you're back watching blurry TV like we've all been stuck with for the last gazillion years. 

World of difference between a sports presentation in 1080i and 720p. 720p reminds me of why I spent so much money on a good 42" 1080p HDTV...to never have to see blurry crap like 720p ever again!


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## texasmoose

Maruuk said:


> 720p reminds me of why I spent so money on a good 42" 1080p HDTV...to never have to see blurry crap like 720p ever again!


I have 720p pdps and I agree with you the quality of TBS feed far exceeds that of Fox simulcast. But I didn't have to buy a 1080p to get this clarity, it's there on my screen too. And I didn't have to spend more than a handful of benjamins to enjoy it............<4 for my 42, and <6 for my 50. In the words of _Matt Damon_'s character from _Good Will Hunting_: "How do you like 'dem apples"?


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## Richierich

Anyone who listens to or believes anything that Swanni says deserves exactly what they get, MISINFORMATION!!!


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## Lord Vader

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

He's correct about FOX HD on this one.


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## Maruuk

Bought my set a few years ago. Some amazing deals going down now on sets.

Ya know, most 40" and larger sets now are 1080p, which was certainly not the case not long ago. That means more and more folks can really see the difference between 720 and 1080. And that means the handwriting is on the wall for Fox and ABC. Get with the HD program, guys, go true HD. Because now, with 1080p sets, the audience can finally see the 720p Emperor has no clothes.


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## mystic7

Ya know what really cracks me up is I've always said there's an obvious difference between 720p and 1080i and people on this forum would tell me I'm seeing things; there's no disernable difference. Now everybody sees it. So, I WIN! 

btw, the phrase "How do ya like dem apples" was around loooooooooooong before Matt "********* Red Sox Fan" Damon ever uttered it.


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## Hoosier205

Too many facepalms to go around in there. Swanni is not right. The games were in HD. No question. No debate. End of story. Go ask the FOX engineer who posts at AVSForum if you need more information.


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## Richierich

Lord Vader said:


> Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
> 
> He's correct about FOX HD on this one.


Yes, he is but I wouldn't ever spend one minute listening to any thing he has to say. He is so Uninformed or Misinformed on so many things that He Is A Joke and not to be taken seriously.


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## spaul

Alright I,ll allow that Fox is broadcasting in 720P HD but, you have to concide that it,s visably different then CBS for football or TBS for baseball. Which, those 2 channels are so much better even my wife complaines evey time when switching between broadcasts .This is watching it on all 3 of my tvs a 42" Panasonic plasma 1080p,40"Toshiba Regza lcd 1080p& 32" lcd Panasonic 720p.To me it seems at times watching Fox is like watching some older programs that were made before HD and being not quite as sharp being updated which is fine for older things but, not for new and live broadcasts.


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## hdtvfan0001

Maruuk said:


> Bought my set a few years ago. Some amazing deals going down now on sets.
> 
> Ya know, most 40" and larger sets now are 1080p, which was certainly not the case not long ago. That means more and more folks can really see the difference between 720 and 1080. And that means the handwriting is on the wall for Fox and ABC. Get with the HD program, guys, go true HD. Because now, with 1080p sets, the audience can finally see the 720p Emperor has no clothes.


Hope nobody is holding their breath on the migration from 720p to 1080p on those networks anytime soon - otherwise the Emperor will look silly with a purple face.

*Done correctly and with a tuned, quality display*....720p (which upconverts to 1080i on most units) can look nearly identical to 1080p to the majority of viewers. The challenge, of course...is that many folks never tune their HDTV units properly.


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## hdtvfan0001

One other thing that may be a contributor...

A number of sporting events on almost all HD channels use a combination of most HD cameras, along with some SD ones (still). I continue to see this for major sporting events. It hurts my eyes when they go any SD camera view...


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## SPACEMAKER

Maruuk said:


> Guys, it's simply 720p Fox Blur-O-Vision vs. TBS 1080i HD. On 720p Fox, all the detail in the stands blurs into mush, and the players develop slight blur outlines. I've had to suffer through this on all the Giants/Phillies games.
> 
> Over on TBS where I just watched the Yanks die die die (Yes!), the pic was crystal clear. Because TBS is in HD...1080i.
> 
> 720p is fake HD, a curse on TV everywhere. Stamp it out wherever you can.
> 
> I'm so glad the truth is finally spreading across the land on this!
> 
> BTW, all ABC/ESPN sports are also in the same blurry 720p boat. Objects large in frame and medium to tight closeups on people will look ok, but when you go to the master shot, all the background detail that gives you the sense of being there turns to mush, and you're back watching blurry TV like we've all been stuck with for the last gazillion years.
> 
> World of difference between a sports presentation in 1080i and 720p. 720p reminds me of why I spent so much money on a good 42" 1080p HDTV...to never have to see blurry crap like 720p ever again!


:lol::lol::lol:


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## sigma1914

SPACEMAKER said:


> :lol::lol::lol:


*_In my Field Of Dreams whisper voice_* "If you say 720, he will come."

:lol:


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## Hoosier205

sigma1914 said:


> *_In my Field Of Dreams whisper voice_* "If you say 720, he will come."
> 
> :lol:


I'm betting that his morning ritual is just searching for any mention of 720p anywhere on the forum. :lol:


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## Richierich

Maruuk said:


> Guys, it's simply 720p Fox Blur-O-Vision vs. TBS 1080i HD. On 720p Fox, all the detail in the stands blurs into mush, and the players develop slight blur outlines. I've had to suffer through this on all the Giants/Phillies games.
> 
> 720p is fake HD, a curse on TV everywhere. Stamp it out wherever you can.
> 
> I'm so glad the truth is finally spreading across the land on this!
> 
> BTW, all ABC/ESPN sports are also in the same blurry 720p boat. Objects large in frame and medium to tight closeups on people will look ok, but when you go to the master shot, all the background detail that gives you the sense of being there turns to mush, and you're back watching blurry TV like we've all been stuck with for the last gazillion years.
> 
> World of difference between a sports presentation in 1080i and 720p. 720p reminds me of why I spent so much money on a good 42" 1080p HDTV...to never have to see blurry crap like 720p ever again!


Why don't you tell us how you REALLY FEEL and quit beating around the bush!!! :lol:


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## epokopac

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hope nobody is holding their breath on the migration from 720p to 1080p on those networks anytime soon - otherwise the Emperor will look silly with a purple face.
> 
> *Done correctly and with a tuned, quality display*....720p (which upconverts to 1080i on most units) can look nearly identical to 1080p to the majority of viewers. The challenge, of course...is that many folks never tune their HDTV units properly.


You hit the nail on the head. Spend some money on a good calibration. Very pleased with the results whether I'm watching baseball on TBS or FOX.


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## revm1m

Swanni is 100% correct. Fox's HD is garbage.


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## Maruuk

Nothing wrong with Fox's, ESPN's, or ABC's presentation of the Impressionist paintings in motion aka 720p. They are doing a perfectly consistent and adequate job broadcasting the visual swill known as 720p. Every single sports broadcast I have ever had to suffer through from these networks has been dead-on consistent and of equal PQ: Blurry. And blurry to precisely the same degree.

Don't fault the network, fault their broadcast standard.

And if ESPN ever gets an NHL contract again, they'll have to go back to the infamous Fox Glo-Puck just to be able to see it!


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## Hoosier205

Maruuk said:


> Nothing wrong with Fox's, ESPN's, or ABC's presentation of the Impressionist paintings in motion aka 720p. They are doing a perfectly consistent and adequate job broadcasting the visual swill known as 720p. Every single sports broadcast I have ever had to suffer through from these networks has been dead-on consistent and of equal PQ: Blurry. And blurry to precisely the same degree.
> 
> Don't fault the network, fault their broadcast standard.
> 
> And if ESPN ever gets an NHL contract again, they'll have to go back to the infamous Fox Glo-Puck just to be able to see it!


Sounds like you need a proper display calibration. You're wrong to a degree I never thought possible.


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## mystic7

I certainly hope that a "proper calibration" is better than the display I see at Best Buy for a Geek Squad calibration. To me it looks like nothing more than turning the contrast (a/k/a "Picture") all the way down. I would kick myself in the yarbles, repeatedly, if I spent $300 bucks to make my tv look that bad. I'm more than pleased with my own tweaking, done strictly by eye.


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## Maruuk

Folks all over America are waking up to the fact that 720 is crap, 1080i is what was promised as HD. That's simply because their sets are migrating from the old 720p plasmas to 1080p-capable LEDs. And the denier community is shrinking and getting increasingly hostile and hysterical.

But facts is facts. More and more forums are full of folks who are suddenly horrified at just how bad normal 720p looks.

Swanni was simply waking up to the A/B comparison and those two baseball coverages provided the PERFECT test bed for the comparo.

Yanks/Rangers: Sharp, perfect, crisp detail, and you could see the faces of the folks in the stands and read even the small print out on the scoreboard easily.

Giants/Phillies: Perfectly okay closeups on the commentators before the game, perfectly okay close-up one-shot images of the warm-up pitchers. But as soon as they went to any wide shot of the park and the fans...YIKES. Anytime you inspected any background detail element in the distance, it was pure mush, blurry colored shapes, not people sitting in the stands.

Swanni was absolutely right, Fox was putting out a compromised, terrible lower-res image. It's called 720p. And it looked exactly as good as all the 720p broadcasts I've ever seen since I went HD. No better, no worse.

Did we hear of any Fox apologies for their broadcast problems? Of course not, there weren't any. They sent out a perfectly good, perfectly standard, completely nominal technically excellent 720p image, which just so happens to stink to high heavens, as it always has.

Those of us who know this just have to be patient with the deniers. They're obviously protecting their crazy notion that 720 = 1080 and like flat Earthers and Birthers and Creationists, they just need to be humored until science and logic eventually lead them into the new Millennium. As long as they don't try to burn us at the stake before that. Because the ancient ways die hard.


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## hdtvfan0001

Maruuk said:


> Folks all over America are waking up to the fact that 720 is crap, 1080i is what was promised as HD.


This whole rant sounds like the sales pitch of a 1080p TV salesman.

Rubbish, rubbish, and more rubbish.

Myth, myth, and more myth.

...anyone with 2 cents worth of HDTV knowledge knows better thank goodness, as evidenced by numerous posts previously in this thread, as well as plenty of testimony all over the web.

Give it a rest. No one is buying this phoney baloney.


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## Hoosier205

He has to be one of the most uninformed people I have ever come across.


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## hdtvfan0001

Hoosier205 said:


> He has to be one of the most uninformed people I have ever come across.


I'm not looking to make it personal - its the information being conveyed that is bogus.


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## damondlt

Doesn't look as good as TBS did, But it still looks like HD. Atleast on Directv.


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## Sackchamp56

My tv ( Samsung PN50C7000) is calibrated very nicely. 10 pt greyscale calibrated to <1 Delta E for each step (except 10%) gamma very close to 2.2 all the way up and color very close to spot on. 

FOX looks like crap compared to CBS every sunday for NFL Sunday Ticket. I always cringe when my equally crappy Raiders are shown on FOX. I want to see them suck in all their glory!

Thankfully ABC doesnt show football, cause it looks pretty bad too when comparing prime time shows to NBC or CBS.

I would have to say that its because those 2 (ABC, FOX)channels are broadcast in 720P vs 1080i. Could be something else contributing to the difference, but its not my TVs calibration.


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## epokopac

mystic7 said:


> I certainly hope that a "proper calibration" is better than the display I see at Best Buy for a Geek Squad calibration. To me it looks like nothing more than turning the contrast (a/k/a "Picture") all the way down. I would kick myself in the yarbles, repeatedly, if I spent $300 bucks to make my tv look that bad. I'm more than pleased with my own tweaking, done strictly by eye.


Best Buy Geek Squad for a calibration ?! rolling

Try ISF (Imaging Science Foundation).

An "eye tweak" is certainly a good option as well. I found some very good model specific settings for my Toshiba 46XV645U on the web. Quite pleased with the result.


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## sigma1914

Sackchamp56 said:


> ...
> 
> Thankfully ABC doesnt show football, cause it looks pretty bad too when comparing prime time shows to NBC or CBS.
> 
> ...


Tonight's OU/Mizzou game looks excellent.


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## Sackchamp56

sigma1914 said:


> Tonight's OU/Mizzou game looks excellent.


I should have said NFL i suppose. I havent had the oppurtunity to view a college game on ABC. Strictly based off of prime time viewing.


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## sigma1914

Sackchamp56 said:


> I should have said NFL i suppose. I havent had the oppurtunity to view a college game on ABC. Strictly based off of prime time viewing.


I knew you meant NFL...I was just pointing out tonight's game looks great in 720p.


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## Sackchamp56

To those of you who cant see the difference, do you have your directv box set to native or is it doing the upconverting (assuming you have a 1080p TV) Maybe those of us who are dissapointed in the quality of 720p compared to 1080i have tv that do not do as good of a job with the conversion as the DTV box. Perhaps Ill try that tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. There is enough of a difference in quality between FOX and CBS to make it worth my while. 

If any of the experts who think everyone that see these differences in quality are not because of broadcast resolution, what other suggestions do you have to correct them?

my setup is as follows:

HR24 set to native attached via HDMI directly to Samsung pn50c7000. Viewing distance of 8 FT. My locals are Washington DC locals. Like I said the TV is calibrated well. I'd post the Calman charts to prove it, but I'm not at home.

By the way the differences in quality that I see between fox and cbs are not motion related, so i dont think its because of bit rate differences.


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## Davenlr

Sackchamp56 said:


> If any of the experts who think everyone that see these differences in quality are not because of broadcast resolution, what other suggestions do you have to correct them?


I am not an expert, but have found adding a DVDO Edge video processor/HDMI switcher to my setup, and setting it sharpen 720p, edge enhance 720p, reduce mosquito noise on 720p, and then output to my monitor at 1080p makes the sports look noticeably better than running the 720p directly to my monitor. Comes with a cost, but since I watch a lot of sports, which, unfortunantly chose to use 720p for a lot of it, I needed to do something.

I output native on to the processor. It also converts those 1080p/24 PPVs to 1080p/60 since my monitor wont accept a /24 signal.

As for just outputting with no processing, I think the best bet would be to find the native res of your TV, and then set the DirecTv box to that res and watch a while. Then switch native on, and watch that a while, and see which box does a better job of up/down converting.


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## hdtvfan0001

Sackchamp56 said:


> To those of you who cant see the difference, do you have your DirecTV box set to native or is it doing the upconverting (assuming you have a 1080p TV) Maybe those of us who are disappointed in the quality of 720p compared to 1080i have TV that do not do as good of a job with the conversion as the DTV box.


An interesting consideration.

None of my units here are native. I have tested for years and years with native settings...but I have native off as my default setup.

It would seem that *if* the HDTV/display is *properly tuned*, and has any resemblance of *good HD video processing *technology in it...720p /1080i should look so close to 1080p that 98% of folks can't tell the difference. Studies have shown that more than 70% of HD viewers don't have properly tuned HD displays - most remove them from the box, connect the cables, turn them on, and never think about it again.

Once variable - screen size. I have read countless studies, tests, reviews, reports, articles, etc. on the whole 1080i vs 1080p comparison debate.

They all basically agree that anyone who buys a 1080p HDTV that is 42" or smaller in size over-spent. The presentation difference in that size range is so miniscule...most humans cannot detect it (at least legitimately).

When you get to the 46" and larger displays...primarily 55" or higher...the potential of seeing very small but distinct detail variances becomes more of a probability to at least some folks with perfectionist eyes - maybe 3-5% of viewers. In other words...if you're looking at a 60" HDTV...1080p might just be worth the extra $400-$700 over 1080i if you have "keen eyes".

All that said, one last key variable the the Hz...the newer 1080p 120Hz and higher sets also do a better job of fast-motion image stabilization. This plays big into sports above most other viewing.

As for the OP topic at hand... 720p/1080i on FOX is different than 1080i on CBS, for example...as much origination from different equipment as anything else. When done right, and when not mixed together with intermittent SD cameras thrown into the mix - both are much more alike than different.


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## Richierich

mystic7 said:


> I certainly hope that a "proper calibration" is better than the display I see at Best Buy for a Geek Squad calibration. To me it looks like nothing more than turning the contrast (a/k/a "Picture") all the way down.


Well, according to a friend I have that works in the business, he said that they Detune Certain Brands so they will not look that good so they can Sell the other ones that they make a higher price point on.

HiFi Buys did that for years before they finally went out of business. There is a Method to Their Madness!!! :lol:


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## Maruuk

As usual the deniers are wildly exaggerating and spinning like dervishes to defend an indefensible myth.

No, Fox, etc. does not look remotely like SD. Nobody said it does. 

In close-ups on people, or objects, it looks objectively about as good as 1080i. I used to watch Ugly Betty in ABC 720 which was all about close-ups and two-shots and it was fine.

But once you move into sports, and the inevitable wide field shots, you really begin to see the obvious difference in the little background details. They become indistinct in 720, but retain much of their detail in 1080i.

In 720 from the behind-the-pitcher shot, you can still see the faces in the crowd quite well because they remain quite large due to the forced perspective of the long lens. It brings the background in close.

But the instant you go to any angle on the play in which the stands are not magnified by a long lens, the individuals in the crowd wash out badly into just a riot of color. As opposed to 1080i where they retain individuality, you can see the faces and details in the stands.

Now obviously we don't care about folks in the stands, except they are an ideal yardstick for what is happening to your entire PQ in the 720p vs. 1080i comparison. in 720p, you are losing a lot of resolution. Plain and simple.

And lots of good folks in this thread alone are seeing it for real.

Eventually the 1080i deniers, like the Shakers, will gradually die out and their arcane and superstitious atavistic beliefs will become merely amusing anecdotes in the annals of HD history.

I hear they still cluster together in quaint villages watching 720p sets and failing to see any difference at all on 1080i broadcasts. Try not to disturb them, they get very upset when outsiders come around. And as we've seen here, they will personally attack you like Mean Girl Cyberbullies in a Lindsay Lohan movie. Best to humor them.

Yes simple hillfolk...720 equals 1080. Absolutely. And the sun revolves around the Earth. Whatever you say. Now go back to your 720p sets and keep crafting those excellent buggy whips.


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## hdtvfan0001

Maruuk said:


> Yes simple hillfolk...720 equals 1080. Absolutely. And the sun revolves around the Earth. Whatever you say. Now go back to your 720p sets and keep crafting those excellent buggy whips.


Despite your insulting tone, some of the leading industry experts have seen things differently than what you present...but of course everyone can believe what they want. Starting with one's own eyeballs are a good place to begin.

Urban legends like the whole 1080i vs 1080p topic is just the reason they created a show like Mythbusters". 

YMMV.


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## RasputinAXP

You're all blind crapheads and I don't know how you watch 1080i. 2540p is where it's at.

Of course, it requires a neural implant, and you have to load the discs into your rectum but hey, it's better than 720p.


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## Maruuk

It's great that some folks are happy with 720p ED. (and cassette tapes and Super 8 video) Enjoy! So why are they the bitterest and nastiest folks in the forum? Do they suspect they're missing something? Let's just not tell them about 1080i and perhaps they'll go away quietly...


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## Stewart Vernon

I prefer 1080i over 720p too... but the HD spec is very clear in defining both as HD resolutions.

I'll gladly debate the merits of 1080i over 720p... but there is no argument that 720p = HD.


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## hdtvfan0001

Stewart Vernon said:


> I prefer 1080i over 720p too... but the HD spec is very clear in defining both as HD resolutions.
> 
> I'll gladly debate the merits of 1080i over 720p... but there is no argument that 720p = HD.


Yup.


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## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It would seem that *if* the HDTV/display is *properly tuned*, and has any resemblance of *good HD video processing *technology in it...720p /1080i should look so close to 1080p that 98% of folks can't tell the difference.


I'd suggest that you replace the term "tuned" with the word "calibrated". Tuning is now something that you do to import sports cars.


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## Hutchinshouse

Stewart Vernon said:


> I prefer 1080i over 720p too... but the HD spec is very clear in defining both as HD resolutions.
> 
> I'll gladly debate the merits of 1080i over 720p... but there is no argument that 720p = HD.


I think the spec needs to be better defined. If I up-convert my VCR to 720p or 1080i I personally don't consider that HD. Too many other factors to base HD on lines of resolution alone. To me, I don't care what the number is, if it looks good, I'm happy.


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## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> I'd suggest that you replace the term "tuned" with the word "calibrated". Tuning is now something that you do to import sports cars.


I don't use beagle talk.

Tuned is a proper term...units have tuners in them.


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## Stewart Vernon

Hutchinshouse said:


> I think the spec needs to be better defined. If I up-convert my VCR to 720p or 1080i I personally don't consider that HD. Too many other factors to base HD on lines of resolution alone. To me, I don't care what the number is, if it looks good, I'm happy.


The spec is fine... an up-conversion is an up-conversion.

IF I put a Porsche car-protector over my Volvo, that doesn't make my Volvo a Porsche nor does it mean the Porsche needs to be better defined.

Taking lower resolution and converting to display at a higher-resolution through up-conversion is not (by definition) suddenly an HD-quality picture. That a lot of people seem to believe so is a product of crazy marketing and lack of understanding by the general public of technology in general.


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## nightrider

i think it has to do with the cameras and the sporting venue,, if we talking sports and movies on direct we should look at hd extra pack i think them movies on there are awsome picture quality vs the rest , note,, 515 looks good , as for the sports go i watch everything from soccer , baseball , hockey , basketball, and as i can see the nesn feeds are the best followed by msg feeds , the fox sports channels and the comcast sports channels look down graded to me, but when i switch on hd soccer from italy on fsc the pic is outstanding ,


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## nightrider

oh by the way i compred directv hd vs bell xpressview hd , and directv kills it , hope this info helps


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## Maruuk

Actually the old DVD-to-HD upconversion via HDMI does quite a good job of extracting everything you can out of a limited pixel-challenged DVD image. It certainly looks better than a straight DVD without upconversion on an HDTV.

Lots of housewife-types then say "See? It looks just as good as HD!" The key is to smile benignly and just pat them on the head.


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## Maruuk

Because some committee of stuffy bureaucrats many years ago decided to paint high-ER definition and high-EST resolution with the same broad HD brush doesn't make 720p look any better. 720p is certainly an Extended Definition well above SD. But the fact is, in reality, outside of a board room in Washington DC, it's nothing more than ED.

Washington bureacrats have a lot of silly names for things. Are we really buying what they're telling us any more? Some of us can think for ourselves.


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## Hoosier205

Maruuk said:


> The key is to smile benignly and just pat them on the head.


That seems to work well with you as well.


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## Richierich

Hoosier205 said:


> That seems to work well with you as well.


That was a Good One!!! :lol:


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## Santi360HD

could be worse...Fox's upcoming World Series & NFL Sundays could be in 480P like everything is on the Nintendo Wii..and via RGB cables not HDMI...

I can clearly see why everyone really does not like this guy (Swanni) here on DBS...While 720p is nothing to sneeze at...there are some channels that butcher their 720P like ION & Ch9 here in NYC...but Fox/ABC/ESPN arent ones that do it to butcher 720P....


go report on real stories Swanni...like no more HD upcoming for DTV, after Sony Movie Channel...*
Dish Network and its dropping channels like its hot...
Cablevision & Fox.....

stick with facts not illusional idiocy..


*please someone correct me if i'm wrong......seriously please?????


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## Hutchinshouse

Santi360HD said:


> *could be worse...Fox's upcoming World Series & NFL Sundays could be in 480P* like everything is on the Nintendo Wii..and via RGB cables not HDMI...
> 
> I can clearly see why everyone really does not like this guy (Swanni) here on DBS...While 720p is nothing to sneeze at...there are some channels that butcher their 720P like ION & Ch9 here in NYC...but Fox/ABC/ESPN arent ones that do it to butcher 720P....
> 
> go report on real stories Swanni...like no more HD upcoming for DTV, after Sony Movie Channel...*
> Dish Network and its dropping channels like its hot...
> Cablevision & Fox.....
> 
> stick with facts not illusional idiocy..
> 
> *please someone correct me if i'm wrong......seriously please?????


Could be better, like in 1080i on TBS.  FOX has yet to impress me like TBS, CBS (Los Angeles) or NFL Network. Those channels (sat feeds) on a scale of 1 to10 are a 10. Fox is a 7 at best.


----------



## Santi360HD

Hutchinshouse said:


> Could be better, like in 1080i on TBS.  FOX has yet to impress me like TBS, CBS (Los Angeles) or NFL Network. Those channels (sat feeds) on a scale of 1 to10 are a 10. Fox is a 7 at best.


oh make no mistake...I do not deny...that it CAN be better NO DOUBT!!!...but Swanni's prophecy on 720p not being HD ?? really labels him as a blithering idiot who does not know what the efffff he is talking about...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm of the firm belief that *none of the networks *broadcasting sports help their case by injecting a number of SD cameras in the midst of mostly HD cameras - and then promoting the daylights out of the program being in HD.

I've seen a number of various sports events with obvious SD cameras in action, muddying up the visuals considerably.

Other than that....720p, 1080i, 1080p - its all HD and 99% of the time a joy to view.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Maruuk said:


> Because some committee of stuffy bureaucrats many years ago decided to paint high-ER definition and high-EST resolution with the same broad HD brush doesn't make 720p look any better. 720p is certainly an Extended Definition well above SD. But the fact is, in reality, outside of a board room in Washington DC, it's nothing more than ED.
> 
> Washington bureacrats have a lot of silly names for things. Are we really buying what they're telling us any more? Some of us can think for ourselves.


You're really just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand where YOU want to draw it. Many movies have 4K and 8K masters today that are far superior to their broadcast 1080i/p or Blu-ray releases. Also anything shot on 35mm film is far superior resolution than today's broadcasts by a LONG shot.

But you won't hear me screaming that 1080p is therefore not HD because 4K and 8K and film are much better. That just wouldn't make sense.

By definition, 720p and 1080i and 1080p are different approved HD resolutions by all who were involved in the creation of that spec. Again, we can argue which is or looks better... but we can't argue that they are all HD by the very definition of the technical specs.


----------



## Richierich

Stewart Vernon said:


> By definition, 720p and 1080i and 1080p are different approved HD resolutions by all who were involved in the creation of that spec. Again, we can argue which is or looks better... but we can't argue that they are all HD by the very definition of the technical specs.


AMEN BROTHER BEN!!! You hit the Nail on the Head!!!


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm of the firm belief that *none of the networks *broadcasting sports help their case by injecting a number of SD cameras in the midst of mostly HD cameras - and then promoting the daylights out of the program being in HD.
> 
> I've seen a number of various sports events with obvious SD cameras in action, muddying up the visuals considerably.
> 
> Other than that....720p, 1080i, 1080p - its all HD and 99% of the time a joy to view.


+1. Well stated.

Alot of shots are from SD Cameras for Crowd Shots into the Stadium so they can save on Camera Expenses. 720P done right is really as Good as 1080I but done wrong both will not look as good as they should.


----------



## Hoosier205

I believe the information on SD camera use is actually incorrect now.


----------



## Maruuk

The worst perp ever in the SD/HD cam mix was NBC Sports PGA Tour '09 when they would constantly cut between SD and HD cams from shot to shot. Brutal.

The worst offenders have finally gone to all HD but you still see a little of it in minor sports presentations.

Sadly, the world will be stuck viewing the entire World Series in 720p ED on Fox Blur-o-Vision. Gonna be a lotta folks banging their sets and going to optometrists wondering what happened to the detail of their perfectly good 1080p set. Especially folks who had seen the TBS Pennant series in stunning actual 1080i HD. Note to any cheaters who are taking their skanks to the games: Don't worry, nobody at home will be able to make out your face in 720p!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Maruuk said:


> The worst perp ever in the SD/HD cam mix was NBC Sports PGA Tour '09 when they would constantly cut between SD and HD cams from shot to shot. Brutal.
> 
> The worst offenders have finally gone to all HD but you still see a little of it in minor sports presentations.
> 
> Sadly, the world will be stuck viewing the entire World Series in 720p ED on Fox Blur-o-Vision. *Gonna be a lotta folks banging their sets and going to optometrists wondering what happened to the detail of their perfectly good 1080p set.* Especially folks who had seen the TBS Pennant series in stunning actual 1080i HD. Note to any cheaters who are taking their skanks to the games: Don't worry, nobody at home will be able to make out your face in 720p!


Two words: Urban Legend.

The view will be great here...I didn't get cheap equipment, and what I have is calibrated, tuned, or whatever folks want to call it.


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Two words: Urban Legend.
> 
> The view will be great here...I didn't get cheap equipment, and what I have is calibrated, tuned, or whatever folks want to call it.


My View Looks Great and I don't have that Blur-O-Vision so maruuk must have paid Extra to get that Blur-O-Vision thingy as I don't have it but of course my LG Display Device has a Great Scaler in it and just displays Great Pictures so maybe Marauk got a Cheap Display Device at a discounted price from somewhere like Wally World.


----------



## Hoosier205

Maruuk said:


> Sadly, the world will be stuck viewing the entire World Series in 720p ED on Fox Blur-o-Vision.


720p HD. I blame your poor experience on an improper calibration, possibly inferior equipment, and a severe lack of knowledge on the subject.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Tuned is a proper term...units have tuners in them.


How many here are using HDTV tuners to watch the game?

Are you saying that HDTV (or even DIRECTV) tuners can somehow be fine tuned or otherwise adjusted to avoid a fuzzy picture on Fox HD broadcasts?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Hoosier205 said:


> 720p HD. I blame your poor experience on an improper calibration, possibly inferior equipment, and a severe lack of knowledge on the subject.


Not to make an issue out of it. If a TV is properly calibrated, you will see fine detail. My TV is fully calibrated, I can see the difference from 720p and 1080i. The ones that cannot see a difference may not have a properly calibrated TV. Crank the sharpness, crank contrast, you won't see a difference. Dial in sharpness and contrast, the difference is clear. I do agree with you, 720p is HD, just not as clear as 1080i.


----------



## Richierich

Hutchinshouse said:


> I do agree with you, 720p is HD, just not as clear as 1080i.


Well Stated My Friend!!!


----------



## Maruuk

Hm, more and more guys admitting upon careful observation that 720p is not as detailed an image as 1080i.

That would make guys who say it makes no difference to PQ...wrong. Hm. Interesting.


----------



## Richierich

Well, in some Views 720P is Better such as resolving fast moving objects but in other cases 1081I is Better so I watch both as I have Selected Native On but I Never have the problems you report so you should come over and watch my Display Device and show me what you don't like.

I'm always Open To Enlightenment as I was a Certified ISF Calibrator but no longer need to work so I just lurk and listen with amusement.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

richierich said:


> Well, in some Views 720P is Better such as resolving fast moving objects but in other cases 1081I is Better so I watch both as *I have Selected Native On* but I Never have the problems you report so you should come over and watch my Display Device and show me what you don't like.
> 
> I'm always Open To Enlightenment as I was a Certified ISF Calibrator but *no longer need to work* so I just lurk and listen with amusement.


+1
I use native too. I let my TV's video processor do the heavy lifting. 

"no longer need to work". Can I have some money. :lol:


----------



## Hoosier205

Maruuk said:


> Hm, more and more guys admitting upon careful observation that 720p is not as detailed an image as 1080i.
> 
> That would make guys who say it makes no difference to PQ...wrong. Hm. Interesting.


The issue is your claim that 720p is not HD, when of course it is. You're wrong as usual. Have you ever been right? Ever? Just once?


----------



## Richierich

Hutchinshouse said:


> I use native too. I let my TV's video processor do the heavy lifting.
> 
> "no longer need to work". Can I have some money. :lol:


How much do you Need as I have more Money than I could spend in a Lifetime unless I became crazy as I spend my money very Frugally and I think carefully about all major financial purchases and investments.

But how can your Display Device do the Heavy Lifting if you are passing it thru as I do with Native On? It is just passing 720P thru so your display can display it as 720P unless you tell your display device to do something differently as in Scaling it to a Different Resolution.


----------



## sigma1914

richierich said:


> How much do you Need as I have more Money than I could spend in a Lifetime unless I became crazy as I spend my money very Frugally and I think carefully about all major financial purchases and investments.
> 
> ...


I just need $500 to get the TV I keep eying!

I take back my FSU comments.


----------



## Maruuk

The smoothness issue relative to 720p is a giant urban myth. Movies at 24fps should on paper look herky-jerky. But given persistence of vision and other psychovisual tricks of the mind they do not. They do however impart a different "feel" famously known as "film look".

On paper, 720p should look "smoother" than 1080i. I watch a ton of hockey--fastest game in the world--in 1080i and it appears very smooth. Have seen whole games in 720p on ESPN and whatever and they appear to have no "smoothness" advantage, they just have way less apparent resolution. Which is critical in hockey with the tiny puck.

If some guys see a tiny smoothness improvement at 720p more power to em. That's an awfully subtle personal call. I can't see that. But there's nothing the least bit subtle about resolution/detail differences between 720p and 1080i. The instant a picture pops onto my set I can spot it, if there's any background detail. It's all in the details.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

richierich said:


> How much do you Need as I have more Money than I could spend in a Lifetime unless I became crazy as I spend my money very Frugally and I think carefully about all major financial purchases and investments.
> 
> But how can your Display Device do the Heavy Lifting if you are passing it thru as I do with Native On? It is just passing 720P thru so your display can display it as 720P unless you tell your display device to do something differently as in Scaling it to a Different Resolution.


$30k should do the trick. :lol:

I believe my tv displays all input resolutions at 1080p. Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought all newer tv's up-convert to their max display resolution. If I feed my tv 480, the number of lines on my tv is still 1080. Is that not how it works.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hutchinshouse said:


> $30k should do the trick. :lol:
> 
> I believe my tv displays all input resolutions at 1080p. Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought all newer tv's up-convert to their max display resolution. If I feed my tv 480, the number of lines on my tv is still 1080. *Is that not how it works*.


That's is the common thought....


----------



## Richierich

sigma1914 said:


> I take back my FSU comments.


That's Okay as I got used to comments like that during the Free Shoes U thing that was going around and I was actually playing Golf with Bobby Bowden during that time and a Helicopter landed with a Sports Illustrated Reported in it who later interviewed Bobby and he had to stop the Interview while Bobby signed my scorecard to officially enter our scores in the Tournament so that was Pretty Cool!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> That's Okay as I got used to comments like that during the Free Shoes U thing that was going around and I was actually playing Golf with Bobby Bowden during that time and a Helicopter landed with a Sports Illustrated Reported in it who later interviewed Bobby and he had to stop the Interview while Bobby signed my scorecard to officially enter our scores in the Tournament so that was Pretty Cool!!!


Before or after he was carted off in handcuffs for questioning about one of his players? :lol:


----------



## Richierich

Hutchinshouse said:


> $30k should do the trick. :lol:
> 
> I believe my tv displays all input resolutions at 1080p. Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought all newer tv's up-convert to their max display resolution. If I feed my tv 480, the number of lines on my tv is still 1080. Is that not how it works.


That is not how it works as I feed 1080I to my 1080P LG LED TV but when I Hit the Info Button it shows as 1080I.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> That is not how it works as I feed 1080I to my 1080P LG LED TV but when I Hit the Info Button it shows as 1080I.


That's what you get for buying LG equipment. !rolling


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Before or after he was carted off in handcuffs for questioning about one of his players? :lol:


Actually Bobby was Very Gracious in Allowing the Interview during His Golf Outing and I can't believe the Helicopter got permission to land but he did somehow at River Pines Golf Course.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Actually Bobby was Very Gracious in Allowing the Interview during His Golf Outing and I can't believe the Helicopter got permission to land but he did somehow at River Pines Golf Course.


Who said they had permission??? (see NCAA rules violations in history via Google)... :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Richierich

And I just changed the Channel to a Station that was delivering 720P Content and it showed up as 1080i so it works as advertised.

However, if you watch a 1080P PPV it will be displayed as 1080P.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> And I just changed the Channel to a Station that was delivering 720P Content and it showed up as 1080i so it works as advertised.
> 
> However, if you watch a 1080P PPV it will be displayed as 1080P.


See...it pays to read the instructions manual after all... :lol:


----------



## Hutchinshouse

richierich said:


> That is not how it works as I feed 1080I to my 1080P LG LED TV but when I Hit the Info Button it shows as 1080I.


That's correct. The info button provides details on the input source, not the screen's resolution.

These dudes can explain it better than I:

*Fixed-pixel displays follow a few basic rules:
No matter the resolution of the source material, whether VHS, DVD, or HDTV, a fixed-pixel display will always convert, or scale, it to fit its native resolution.* 

(read "Native resolution: The fix is in")
*Link:* http://reviews.cnet.com/hdtv-resolution/


----------



## Richierich

Maruuk said:


> Hm, more and more guys admitting upon careful observation that 720p is not as detailed an image as 1080i.
> 
> That would make guys who say it makes no difference to PQ...wrong. Hm. Interesting.


Read This Post by a Poster who know alot about these things and then try to have a Debate with him.

This is a Post by TomCat:

"If you want the DVR to follow the resolution of the content coming out of it, use "native on", but realize that this can lengthen channel and source acquisition times so may not be the best choice for channel surfing. If you use a DVR stricty as a recorder (like many of us--record everthing you watch and never really watch live very much) that won't matter. Regardless, you will have to actively look very hard to see the difference and still may not. It usually makes more sense to forget about technical issues and just enjoy what you are watching than to obsess about whether your PQ is a tenth of a percent less than it could be, and those are the margins of difference we are dealing with here, mostly invisible margins.

For example, using 1080i is in most cases probably not going to give you a difference that is apparent, even to trained eyes. Depending on the content and the particular TV, using 720p mode for 720 content may actually work a little better. Ironically, on some TVs, using 720p mode for 1080i content may actually work better. It is all in how well the TV can deinterlace, which is a factor that seems to have some variance between manufacturers.

Bottom line, try what you have and choose what you like for the setup you have, and you can hardly go wrong. Then, just forget about it and enjoy TV.

It is probably also not really productive to get caught up in matching resolutions or being all that cognizant of such things. One thing that is very confusing to many is that "1080p" the display resolution is not really related to 1080p the content format resolution. They represent two similar but very different things. 1080p content may have tiny advantages that 1080i content does not have (and 720p content also has tiny advantages over 1080i), but a 1080p TV simply displays everything as progressive at 1920x1080 and does not have those advantages.

Not only that, every 1080p TV is "1080p-capable", yet that does not guarantee that it will process 1080p content directly. Many process it the same way they process 1080i, then reclock it to display it progressively, which removes those tiny advantages that 1080p content may have."


----------



## sigma1914

richierich said:


> That's Okay as I got used to comments like that during the Free Shoes U thing that was going around and I was actually playing Golf with Bobby Bowden during that time and a Helicopter landed with a Sports Illustrated Reported in it who later interviewed Bobby and he had to stop the Interview while Bobby signed my scorecard to officially enter our scores in the Tournament so that was Pretty Cool!!!


Does that mean you'll send the $500?


----------



## Maruuk

Must say, Fox pulled out all stops on the WS coverage last night: best 720p PQ I've ever seen. Don't know if they limited compression or opened up some bandwidth or what, but that was actually WATCHABLE 720p! That does remind that there's more bandwidth/compression variability going on from program to program than we realize. For instance, NASCAR on Fox 720p is brutal, you can barely make out the car numbers or tell them apart. 

A tip of the hat to Fox for making a silk purse out of a sow's butt!


----------



## Richierich

Maruuk said:


> Must say, Fox pulled out all stops on the WS coverage last night: best 720p PQ I've ever seen. Don't know if they limited compression or opened up some bandwidth or what, but that was actually WATCHABLE 720p! That does remind that there's more bandwidth/compression variability going on from program to program than we realize. For instance, NASCAR on Fox 720p is brutal, you can barely make out the car numbers or tell them apart.
> 
> A tip of the hat to Fox for making a silk purse out of a sow's butt!


Maruuk, I really think you need to get a Better Display Device or have the one that you have Calibrated because I am not seeing what you are seeing and you are welcome to come over to watch it on my Samsung HDTV and see for yourself.

Are you sure that you are not drinking too many beers when you watch TV as that can affect your vision?


----------



## Maruuk

Jeez, you try to compliment a good job by a network and the deniers crawl out from under their 720pTV rocks and call you a drunk. I'm sure an ad hominem attack of that nature that violates forum rules, but the moderator is probably a denier too.

The truth must hurt a lot, it sure has got the deniers squirming a lot lately!


----------



## Hoosier205

Maruuk said:


> Jeez, you try to compliment a good job by a network and the deniers crawl out from under their 720pTV rocks and call you a drunk. I'm sure an ad hominem attack of that nature that violates forum rules, but the moderator is probably a denier too.
> 
> The truth must hurt a lot, it sure has got the deniers squirming a lot lately!


 Let us know when you figure a few things out. Post this nonsense over at AVS and we'll see how long you last.


----------



## Richierich

Maruuk said:


> Jeez, you try to compliment a good job by a network and the deniers crawl out from under their 720pTV rocks and call you a drunk. I'm sure an ad hominem attack of that nature that violates forum rules, but the moderator is probably a denier too.
> 
> The truth must hurt a lot, it sure has got the deniers squirming a lot lately!


It was meant as a Tongue In Cheek Jest not as a Barb so Lighten Up and get a New Display Device.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

For once I agree with both RichieRich and Mr. Swann. Mark this day well, children. Bards will sing of this day for decades to come. 

I was in a sports bar last night and honestly I had forgotten the world series started last night. (That's how much I care about Texas or San Francisco.) I didn't say anything but then Mrs. Shadow popped up with "Is this even really HD?"

The quality of the broadcast was some of the worst I've seen on a supposedly HD broadcast.

Oh, and Hoosier&Richierich, cut it out or I'll see you both in the principal's office.


----------



## Richierich

Yes Sir Boss just trying to have a little fun and pointing out that I must have an Excellent Scaler in my Display Device because I am not that disappointed with my Fox Broadcast but I will be watching it a little closer from now on.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I saw the World Series on a 50" plasma for the first inning at an eating establishment....several innings on my 55" LCD...and the end on my 42" LCD.

No blur-o-vision, clear HD, and nothing even remotely resembling the near-SD quality some would seem to portray this broadcast.

Was it the best HD I've ever seen - hardly.

Was it the worst HD I've seen - nope.


----------



## Lord Vader

Maruuk said:


> Must say, Fox pulled out all stops on the WS coverage last night: best 720p PQ I've ever seen. Don't know if they limited compression or opened up some bandwidth or what, but that was actually WATCHABLE 720p! That does remind that there's more bandwidth/compression variability going on from program to program than we realize. For instance, NASCAR on Fox 720p is brutal, you can barely make out the car numbers or tell them apart.
> 
> A tip of the hat to Fox for making a silk purse out of a sow's butt!


I don't know what YOU were smoking, Mr. FOX Employee, but their HD coverage was pathetic at best. It looked like !pusht!



richierich said:


> Maruuk, I really think you need to get a Better Display Device or have the one that you have Calibrated because I am not seeing what you are seeing and you are welcome to come over to watch it on my Samsung HDTV and see for yourself.
> 
> Are you sure that you are not drinking too many beers when you watch TV as that can affect your vision?


Your observations are spot on.



Maruuk said:


> Jeez, you try to compliment a good job by a network and the deniers crawl out from under their 720pTV rocks and call you a drunk. I'm sure an ad hominem attack of that nature that violates forum rules, but the moderator is probably a denier too.
> 
> The truth must hurt a lot, it sure has got the deniers squirming a lot lately!


Have you checked out the AVS forum? There are a LOT of posts blasting FOX's poor HD broadcast of the WS. That's a respected forum in the A/V world. I tend to think they're more accurate in their criticisms than you are in your praise.

BTW, for how long have you worked at FOX?


----------



## Lord Vader

Stuart Sweet said:


> For once I agree with both RichieRich and Mr. Swann. Mark this day well, children. Bards will sing of this day for decades to come.
> 
> I was in a sports bar last night and honestly I had forgotten the world series started last night. (That's how much I care about Texas or San Francisco.) I didn't say anything but then Mrs. Shadow popped up with "Is this even really HD?"
> 
> *The quality of the broadcast was some of the worst I've seen on a supposedly HD broadcast.*
> 
> Oh, and Hoosier&Richierich, cut it out or I'll see you both in the principal's office.


_(Emphasis added.)_

You are SO right, Stuart. It was AWFUL on both my Sammy LED DLP and my Panasonic plasma.

The quality was so bad it made me want to :barf:


----------



## Richierich

Well, I just don't see it so I must have An Incredible Scaler which Pleases Me to the Nth Degree!!!

But Please don't Zap me with your Darth Vader Thingy and send me into a Time Warp because I speak my Opinion.

You are Welcome to Come Over and Point Out How Bad It Is On My Display Device!!!

Afterwards, we can have a couple of Cold Beverages!!!

I have been working for Fox for 12 years, why do you ask??? :lol:


----------



## Hutchinshouse

richierich said:


> Well, *I just don't see it so I must have An Incredible Scaler* which Pleases Me to the Nth Degree!!!
> 
> But Please don't Zap me with your Darth Vader Thingy and send me into a Time Warp because I speak my Opinion.
> 
> You are Welcome to Come Over and Point Out How Bad It Is On My Display Device!!!
> 
> Afterwards, we can have a couple of Cold Beverages!!!
> 
> I have been working for Fox for 12 years, why do you ask??? :lol:


Or a display that's not calibrated correctly. :lol: Or you're sitting beyond the recommend viewing distance. . I like others can see the difference. You have to understand, I'm not saying it's poor, I'm saying it's not as good as 1080i.


----------



## Davenlr

What is that green blurry stuff around the pitchers mount and in the outfield I am seeing on my calibrated Sharp Aquos with DVDO video processor?? Looks like grass, but on TBS, I could count the blades.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

After watching the game tonight, it's not a 720 thing. To me it looks like the video is bit starved. It's like we're watching the game off the Internet.


----------



## Richierich

Hutchinshouse said:


> After watching the game tonight, it's not a 720 thing. To me it looks like the video is bit starved. It's like we're watching the game off the Internet.


EXACTLY LIKE THEY MAY BE PLAYING AROUND WITH THE BITRATES PERHAPS!!! :lol:


----------



## Maruuk

I'm getting the D* DNS HD feed out of Fox LA. And it looks really good for 720p. Everybody's accessing the content via different stations and providers. Apples and oranges.


----------



## Maruuk

Whatever the limitations of your set or your eyesight or your egos, one ruling principle is undeniable: Giants Rule!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Maruuk said:


> Whatever the limitations of your set or your eyesight or your egos, one ruling principle is undeniable: Giants Rule!!!


I would have thought you would have said that the Rangers look blurry and ugly in 720p... :lol:


----------



## Richierich

Maruuk said:


> I'm getting the D* DNS HD feed out of Fox LA. And it looks really good for 720p. Everybody's accessing the content via different stations and providers. Apples and oranges.


GREAT!!! Maybe they have Upped the Bitrate and now it looks better.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

richierich said:


> EXACTLY LIKE THEY MAY BE PLAYING AROUND WITH THE BITRATES PERHAPS!!! :lol:


FOX is using wireless HD cameras for this broadcast. I thought maybe bitrates came into play. Whatever it is, something is not right. The shot of the city last night had a ton of noise in the video. Many compression artifacts. Search the web, many sites are saying FOX HD is not the best when compared to other HD channels. Clearly we're not all crazy. OK, I am a little crazy. However, my eyes are razor sharp (with glasses), my TV is calibrated and I sit the recommended distance. I assure you FOX HD is not as good as others. The evidence speaks volumes.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Maruuk said:


> Whatever the limitations of your set or your eyesight or your egos, one ruling principle is undeniable: *Giants Rule*!!!


After the past two games, that is a fact! Offensive powerhouse!


----------



## Richierich

Hutchinshouse said:


> Clearly we're not all crazy. OK, I am a little crazy. However, my eyes are razor sharp (with glasses), my TV is calibrated and I sit the recommended distance. I assure you FOX HD is not as good as others. The evidence speaks volumes.


I agree that FOX could do better but maybe it is your Affiliate that is causing the problem by not giving you enough Bitrate to see it as I am seeing it. I know you are not Crazy but I just wish you could see it on my HDTV and you would not be that disappointed.

I believe that it must be the Affiliate that is Starving it in terms of Bitrates or we would all be seeing it. That said I also must have the Best TV Scaler in the World and that makes me a Very Happy Camper!!! :lol:


----------



## Hoosier205

Is the quality what it should be or could be? No, obviously not. Is 720p HD? Yes, of course it is.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

richierich said:


> I agree that FOX could do better but *maybe it is your Affiliate* that is causing the problem by not giving you enough Bitrate to see it as I am seeing it. I know you are not Crazy but I just wish you could see it on my HDTV and you would not be that disappointed.
> 
> I believe that it must be the Affiliate that is Starving it in terms of Bitrates or we would all be seeing it. That said I also must have the Best TV Scaler in the World and that makes me a Very Happy Camper!!! :lol:


I think you nailed it there! I know it cannot be my TV. If I flip my blu-ray to 720p, the picture is very sharp. Light years ahead of FOX HD.

FOX HD reminds me of watching the news. You know when they go to the live traffic report in HD (cough, cough). You get a live view from the helicopter. The feed is so compressed it's not even funny. The video looks like junk, however the on-screen graphics are razor sharp.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Hoosier205 said:


> Is the quality what it should be or could be? No, obviously not. Is 720p HD? Yes, of course it is.


I agree too, it's 720p. However, something is not right, or could be done better.


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## Maruuk

All hail the World Champion San Francisco Giants! They look great even in ED!


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