# DirecTV turned off my OTA!?



## Azalo (Oct 24, 2006)

I have an HR20 which I use with an OTA and until today was able to get all my local channels in HD OTA. Today I am unable to get to those channels and I get "Service not active, Call Customer Service (750)" message. I called CS and talked to 3 reps all who weren't able to fix it, the 3rd said that since OTA is not a service that DirecTV is providing they have no control over it which is ridiculous because this has nothing to do with signal strength or anything like that. The only thing I can think of is that they now consider OTA part of their HD Access service which I don't subscribe to. Any insiders heard anything about this, or anyone else also have this problem?


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Azalo said:


> I have an HR20 which I use with an OTA and until today was able to get all my local channels in HD OTA. Today I am unable to get to those channels and I get "Service not active, Call Customer Service (750)" message. I called CS and talked to 3 reps all who weren't able to fix it, the 3rd said that since OTA is not a service that DirecTV is providing they have no control over it which is ridiculous because this has nothing to do with signal strength or anything like that. The only thing I can think of is that they now consider OTA part of their HD Access service which I don't subscribe to. Any insiders heard anything about this, or anyone else also have this problem?


did you deactivate the HR20??? if you did then you lose OTA


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Try re-running your Off-Air Channel Setup as you did originally. Your zipcode should appear the same as it did, but if it doesn't work, try entering the nearest zip.

Also- did you set up a "secondary" local Off-Air zipcode? Sometimes just changing one or both of those zipcodes can fix the problem.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Canis Lupus said:


> Try re-running your Off-Air Channel Setup as you did originally. Your zipcode should appear the same as it did, but if it doesn't work, try entering the nearest zip.
> 
> Also- did you set up a "secondary" local Off-Air zipcode? Sometimes just changing one or both of those zipcodes can fix the problem.


also no HD access at all, No OTA HD.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Yes - but if you have the rest of your SAT HD Access, this is less likely an authorization issue. 

This exact issue has been happening to some CE'ers, including myself. 

wonder if the OP just received the latest NR.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

curt8403 said:


> also no HD access at all, No OTA HD.


From what I have been told...
That is correct.

HD Access is requrired to access the ATSC options on the current generation of the hardware.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Canis Lupus said:


> Yes - but if you have the rest of your SAT HD Access, this is less likely an authorization issue.
> 
> This exact issue has been happening to some CE'ers, including myself.
> 
> wonder if the OP just received the latest NR.


from OP The only thing I can think of is that they now consider OTA part of their HD Access service *which I don't subscribe to*. Any insiders heard anything about this, or anyone else also have this problem?

seems simple enough


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## Azalo (Oct 24, 2006)

curt8403 said:


> also no HD access at all, No OTA HD.


I did RBR and I tried setting up my OTA locals again but I'll try neighboring and secondary zipcodes.

That is what I was wondering, why would OTA HD channels be part of the 9.99 HD access, I'm not using any of their bandwidth? It has worked for the past 6 months, of course I did cancel HD access 2 weeks ago but the OTA just stopped working today.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

OK - so maybe we need to see if the OP has lost ALL HD. Otherwise I still suggest re-running Antenna Setup, as it worked for me having lost only HD OTA recently. All of my HD from the SATs was not affected. And my SD OTA also was still working.



Earl Bonovich said:


> From what I have been told...
> That is correct.
> 
> HD Access is requrired to access the ATSC options on the current generation of the hardware.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Azalo said:


> I did RBR and I tried setting up my OTA locals again but I'll try neighboring and secondary zipcodes.
> 
> That is what I was wondering, why would OTA HD channels be part of the 9.99 HD access, I'm not using any of their bandwidth? It has worked for the past 6 months, of course I did cancel HD access 2 weeks ago but the OTA just stopped working today.


yes yes yes the OTA HD is part of HD Access. your rcvr simply updated the info on the card today.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Ah OK - Bingo. If you cancelled your HD Access, you no longer have OTA HD Access.



Azalo said:


> I did RBR and I tried setting up my OTA locals again but I'll try neighboring and secondary zipcodes.
> 
> That is what I was wondering, why would OTA HD channels be part of the 9.99 HD access, I'm not using any of their bandwidth? It has worked for the past 6 months, of course I did cancel HD access 2 weeks ago but the OTA just stopped working today.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

When did ATSC access get tied to the $9.99 HD access?

What in the world would the use of the OTA tuners have to do with HD access.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

raott said:


> When did ATSC access get tied to the $9.99 HD access?
> 
> What in the world would the use of the OTA tuners have to do with HD access.


the HD rcvr is for Directv HD and as an added bonus some get OTA as well, but not just OTA and no HD from Directv. that has always been D* policy


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## Azalo (Oct 24, 2006)

raott said:


> When did ATSC access get tied to the $9.99 HD access?
> 
> What in the world would the use of the OTA tuners have to do with HD access.


Exactly and I don't think its a coincidence that this happens 2 weeks before the Super Bowl and the premiere of Lost. If this is their policy I will definitely cancel, it just seems like extortion to me.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

raott said:


> When did ATSC access get tied to the $9.99 HD access?
> 
> What in the world would the use of the OTA tuners have to do with HD access.


My guess (and it is just a guess, as I haven't been told).
The royalties they have to pay on the ATSC tuners.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Azalo said:


> Exactly and I don't think its a coincidence that this happens 2 weeks before the Super Bowl and the premiere of Lost. If this is their policy I will definitely cancel, it just seems like extortion to me.


Sorry, but DIrectv HD RCVRS are intended for DIRECTV HD and the OTA is an added bonus. remember the HR21 has no built in OTA/ YOU can and should call D* and say that you would like Directv HD but cannot afford it right now. Me guessum that maybe they givem you free HD ACCESS for 1 - 2 months. could not hurtl


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

raott said:


> When did ATSC access get tied to the $9.99 HD access?
> 
> What in the world would the use of the OTA tuners have to do with HD access.


It's the new "LIN inspired" service option. 

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.


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## pstineme (May 14, 2004)

Is this a change in policy or are they now just enforcing an existing policy? Do they have to give written notice if it is a change in policy? I may switch back to Comcast while I wait for U-verse if this comes to pass.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

curt8403 said:


> the HD rcvr is for Directv HD and as an added bonus some get OTA as well, but not just OTA and no HD from Directv. that has always been D* policy


I have never, ever once heard that you had to subscribe to the HD Access pack to get access to the OTA tuners. (That's not to say the policy hasn't always been there).

Again, I'll ask, what logical connection is there between the HD Access pack and the OTA tuners.

Under the scenario you just stated, if the HD recvr is for Directv HD only, then since OP doesn't subscribe to the HD package, I would think his HR20 would be be de-authorized altogether.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> My guess (and it is just a guess, as I haven't been told).
> The royalties they have to pay on the ATSC tuners.


Is this a new policy Earl? I've never had an issue because I've always had the HD package, the connection between the two just seems very odd.


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## Azalo (Oct 24, 2006)

Well thanks for all the input, it is what I feared. I'll post an update when I have one. As for the policy is it in writing somewhere? I couldn't find it on their website and as I said the CSRs that I spoke to earlier didn't know about it.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

pstineme said:


> Is this a change in policy or are they now just enforcing an existing policy? Do they have to give written notice if it is a change in policy? I may switch back to Comcast while I wait for U-verse if this comes to pass.


IT has always been policy, most people do not get an HD box and then not use the D* HD/ The original Poster could be looking at D* telling him, you have an HD box and are not getting HD. Please return the box that you are not using for HD. (Not likely, but possible)


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Azalo, does your TV have a ASTC tuner in it? Can't you use it instead? You won't have the DVR capabilities but it seems like you are using the HR20 simply as an SD box, anyway.

And this is a conspiracy to keep you from seeing Lost? Really, now...


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Azalo said:


> Well thanks for all the input, it is what I feared. I'll post an update when I have one. As for the policy is it in writing somewhere? I couldn't find it on their website and as I said the CSRs that I spoke to earlier didn't know about it.


they should have looked up on screen display message 750

it is right there. sorry you got dumb csrs/


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## StuartK (Sep 15, 2007)

The odd thing is I have an old HD SAMSUNG non-DVR receiver that is deactivated that I can use to get OTA just by taking one my lines off of my HR21 and connecting it to the SAMSUNG. Others have reported the same thing with deactivated TIVO HD receivers. I wonder if this is a bug.


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## pstineme (May 14, 2004)

I got an HD box when I subscribed and got HD free for six months. Cancelled after 6 months and my off air has worked ever since. That has been almost a year and a half ago. I asked when I signed up and was told that I did not have to subscribe to the HD package to use the tuners but CSRs will say anything I suppose.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

StuartK said:


> The odd thing is I have an old HD SAMSUNG non-DVR receiver that is deactivated that I can use to get OTA just by taking one my lines off of my HR21 and connecting it to the SAMSUNG. Others have reported the same thing with deactivated TIVO HD receivers. I wonder if this is a bug.


nope, it happens on all Directv branded HD units. not a bug


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

curt8403 said:


> IT has always been policy, most people do not get an HD box and then not use the D* HD/ The original Poster could be looking at D* telling him, you have an HD box and are not getting HD. Please return the box that you are not using for HD. (Not likely, but possible)


Can you show me any writing that describes this policy, including any disclaimer on the box or advertising of an HR20 that says HD Access is required to use the OTA tuners.


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## Azalo (Oct 24, 2006)

curt8403 said:


> IT has always been policy, most people do not get an HD box and then not use the D* HD/ The original Poster could be looking at D* telling him, you have an HD box and are not getting HD. Please return the box that you are not using for HD. (Not likely, but possible)


I realized that most of the HD I watch is OTA so that is why I cancelled the HD Access, that and I wanted to get HBO for The Wire so I was able to sell it to the wife like that. If they let me out of my contract over this I will, I don't really have any complaints with DTV until now but I paid 300 dollars for the right to lease this box and now I can't use a feature that is built in and costs them nothing, just doesn't add up to me.

(And also the Lost thing, I thought it was a new policy that DTV just started not a conspiracy against me in particular, I can see how it sounded funny when I wrote it though.)


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

raott said:


> Can you show me any writing that describes this policy, including any disclaimer on the box or advertising of an HR20 that says HD Access is required to use the OTA tuners.


I'll look and see what I can find


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

curt8403 said:


> I'll look and see what I can find


Thanks. Please note, I'm not trying to be wise with you, I've just never seen such a disclaimer or requirement. But like I said, I've always had the HD package so I may have just never paid attention.


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## Tom White (May 21, 2004)

curt8403 said:


> IT has always been policy, most people do not get an HD box and then not use the D* HD/ The original Poster could be looking at D* telling him, you have an HD box and are not getting HD. Please return the box that you are not using for HD. (Not likely, but possible)


Curt, if I understand what you are saying, I have to disagree. I have had an H20 for a few years now and get my HD over-the-air from a roof-top antenna run through the H20. I have NEVER subscribed to any HD through Directv.

I am very seriously considering cancelling my service due to the "rumored" price hike coming in March. If they are now going to deactivate the ASTC tuners in these machines if you do not subscribe to their HD service, that WILL DEFINATELY be the last straw. I've been with D for probably a decade now, but to take Total Choice to $53 bucks a month is rediculous when my local cable company charges $37 for basically the same channels (minus all the shopping crap).

I am getting sicker by the minute of their add on charges.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Bye Tom.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> My guess (and it is just a guess, as I haven't been told).
> The royalties they have to pay on the ATSC tuners.


The royalty is a one time payment of $5.00 due when the ATSC is installed on the equipment.

Ken S. has provided the link many times.

What surprises me is that the "insider" group didn't know that DTV was shutting it off . It was discussed on Direct TVs board a while back.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

raott said:


> When did ATSC access get tied to the $9.99 HD access?


A bigger question for me is when did HD Access get untied from the HR20 lease? According to the currently posted lease addendum, HD Access is still a requirement of an HD receiver lease.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

pstineme said:


> Is this a change in policy or are they now just enforcing an existing policy? Do they have to give written notice if it is a change in policy? I may switch back to Comcast while I wait for U-verse if this comes to pass.





raott said:


> Is this a new policy Earl? I've never had an issue because I've always had the HD package, the connection between the two just seems very odd.


As far as I understood... it has been the policy since at least the introduction of the HR20... if not longer.


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## ajsvmax (Jan 22, 2007)

So 14 days after you canceled? Hmm...sounds like your program guide data ran out and did not refresh as you were not authorized, but what do I know?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Bushwacr said:


> The royalty is a one time payment of $5.00 due when the ATSC is installed on the equipment.
> 
> Ken S. has provided the link many times.
> 
> What surprises me is that the "insider" group didn't know that DTV was shutting it off . It was discussed on Direct TVs board a while back.


Ahh (for the one time fee).

I don't think it was "just shutoff"... it has been this way for a while.

But really... what percentage of users here... have HD equipment, and not the HD Access option?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Tom White said:


> I am very seriously considering cancelling my service due to the "rumored" price hike coming in March. If they are now going to deactivate the ASTC tuners in these machines if you do not subscribe to their HD service, that WILL DEFINATELY be the last straw. I've been with D for probably a decade now, but to take Total Choice to $53 bucks a month is rediculous when my local cable company charges $37 for basically the same channels (minus all the shopping crap).
> 
> I am getting sicker by the minute of their add on charges.


It isn't a rumored price hike... the price will be going up on 2/27/2008

As for the ATSC tuners, without the HD Service... that is the way it has been for a while now... As for why yours might still be working... don't know.

But It is what it is.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

raott said:


> Can you show me any writing that describes this policy, including any disclaimer on the box or advertising of an HR20 that says HD Access is required to use the OTA tuners.


Probably isn't there...

But is there a notice that you will be able to use the OTA Tuners without subscribring to DirecTV services?


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ahh (for the one time fee).
> 
> I don't think it was "just shutoff"... it has been this way for a while.
> 
> But really... what percentage of users here... have HD equipment, and not the HD Access option?


Sorry I wasn't clear about the shutoff statement. The running commentary here has been to get an HR20 if you needed OTA. A user on the DTV board awhile back was told by a CSR it made no difference because they planned to turn off OTA to the HR20 eventually.

It reminded me of that thread and I was wondering if that finally came to pass.

There never was a statement to refute or affirm it

But it makes sense based on what's going on with DTV lately.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Bushwacr said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear about the shutoff statement. The running commentary here has been to get an HR20 if you needed OTA. A user on the DTV board awhile back was told by a CSR it made no difference because they planned to turn off OTA to the HR20 eventually.
> 
> It reminded me of that thread and I was wondering if that finally came to pass.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion... to clarrify

ATSC support on the HR20 is not going to be shut off.
Nor is ATSC support with the AM21
Nor is ATSC support on the H20s


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## tronn (Jan 16, 2008)

hmmm... anyone know of a cheap alterative to OTA HD Tuner?

- as in a stand-alone box


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

curt8403 said:


> the HD rcvr is for Directv HD and as an added bonus some get OTA as well, but not just OTA and no HD from Directv. that has always been D* policy


In early 2007, you could subscribe to locals WITHOUT HD access and still get MPEG4 HD locals and OTA HD locals as well.

I believe that policy "or lack of policy" ended around March of 2007.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

There should be one in your HDTV. If you mean a DVR, I only know of the MYHD card for a home theatre pc. I'm not sure if the HD Tivo has ATSC tuner or just QAM.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I was told by a DirecTV management level source that the design of the new equipment (H20, HR20) was specifically meant to be such that if the unit was not active, the OTA tuners would not work. DirecTV paid for the engineering, design, and manufacture of the units, and it was not their intent to provide ATSC receivers outside of DirecTV HD subscription.

To the best of my knowledge, an H20 or HR20 that is not active on an account will not have functional ATSC tuners. It appears now that extends to a unit that does not have HD activated on it.

I do not believe there is any requirement for DirecTV to publish this as a policy. It is clearly stated when you activate a receiver that it is for use with DirecTV service. Just because earlier products have OTA tuners that continue to work when not subscribed does not mean that the same capability has to continue in newer products.

Carl


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## joe diamond (Feb 28, 2007)

Are there not ATSC tuners in everyone's future as the feds shut down the analog OTA system? I read of a forty dollar credit for every man woman and child on the planet to grease the transition. Anybody seen one of these cheap stand-alone boxes yet?

One of these would cure the H 20 & H21 OTA situation.

Joe


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

tronn said:


> hmmm... anyone know of a cheap alterative to OTA HD Tuner?
> 
> - as in a stand-alone box


Actually, DISH Network will be making a box .. possibly branded as a Sling device.

Edit: Found it .. http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-video-recorders-dvrs/echostar-tr-50-hd/4505-6474_7-32815499.html

I was in the press conference at CES that announced they said that this box basically works like a VCR .. but it's an HD DVR.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

tronn said:


> hmmm... anyone know of a cheap alterative to OTA HD Tuner?
> 
> - as in a stand-alone box


You can apply for up to two $40 coupons towards the purchase of standalone Digital TV (ATSC) tuners here ....
http://www.dtv2009.gov/


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## bayareamtnbiker (Jan 30, 2007)

Azalo said:


> I realized that most of the HD I watch is OTA so that is why I cancelled the HD Access, that and I wanted to get HBO for The Wire so I was able to sell it to the wife like that. If they let me out of my contract over this I will, I don't really have any complaints with DTV until now but I paid 300 dollars for the right to lease this box and now I can't use a feature that is built in and costs them nothing, just doesn't add up to me.
> 
> (And also the Lost thing, I thought it was a new policy that DTV just started not a conspiracy against me in particular, I can see how it sounded funny when I wrote it though.)


DTV decided to force anyone not paying for HD DVR to pay for it. They did so by taking a function off of your HR20 that you've had for over a year, in the middle of the night w/ a software change. The fact that it was a function they ADVERTISED when they leased it to you you means nothing to them. I won't forget about this anytime soon.


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## Bitz69 (May 26, 2007)

You could probally get your hands on a Hr10-250 pretty cheap, the OTA tuners on those are tied to your account not the HD access tier.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

bayareamtnbiker said:


> DTV decided to force anyone not paying for HD DVR to pay for it. They did so by taking a function off of your HR20 that you've had for over a year, in the middle of the night w/ a software change. The fact that it was a function they ADVERTISED when they leased it to you you means nothing to them. I won't forget about this anytime soon.


They also advertised that a subscription is required.

It's simple, no HD Access subscription, no HD. No HBO subscription, no HBO, no Sunday Ticket subscription, no Sunday Ticket.

They're in the business of selling Television services, not providing the equipment for people to get them for free.

You'll forget about it. If I ask you in 2 months "Hey bayareamtnbiker do you remember that thing?" you'll say "What thing?"

I hate it for this guy because he planned for something else, but DirecTv is not in the business of leasing equipment for you to use it as a means to choose that you don't need their service. The OTA tuner is there to supplement their service in the areas where they don't have the locals on the bird.


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## apexmi (Jul 8, 2006)

Azalo said:


> Exactly and I don't think its a coincidence that this happens 2 weeks before the Super Bowl and the premiere of Lost. If this is their policy I will definitely cancel, it just seems like extortion to me.


Well it is their equipment. Maybe this would not be the case on an Owned rcvr. ? Or shouldn't be the case anyway.


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## cadet502 (Jun 17, 2005)

litzdog911 said:


> You can apply for up to two $40 coupons towards the purchase of standalone Digital TV (ATSC) tuners here ....
> http://www.dtv2009.gov/


But those coupons will only be good towards a specific set of Digital tuners that MUST downconvert to an analog signal.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

I thought the TOS on the HD DVR required you to maintain HD service with DirecTV. It seems the error by DirecTV was not requesting the box back when the OP cancelled HD service.

From the DirecTV Lease Addendum:

_DVR service activation ($5.99/mo.) required for DVR leases; HD Access fee ($9.99/mo.) required for HD Receiver leases; and, both DVR service and HD Access fee payment required for HD DVR leases.

If you cease to be DIRECTV's customer for any reason (whether voluntarily or involuntarily) or if you decide to disconnect/cancel/terminate your DVR service or HD Access fee (if you are leasing a DVR or HD Receiver), you must call DIRECTV within seven (7) days after the termination of your DIRECTV programming services, DVR service or HD Access fee, as applicable, to (i) make arrangements for DIRECTV to pick up all your DIRECTV equipment; or (ii) obtain information from DIRECTV necessary to arrange for a ground or air freight service to pick up and deliver all of your DIRECTV equipment to DIRECTV._


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

They probably don't want to grab up the equipment right away in hopes that the customer will reconsider and choose those services again. Just a guess.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Interesting, Upstream. I didn't know that HD Access activation was part of the deal.

I'll give the folks that just lost their OTA a break. Maybe they didn't know this either.

It doesn't help that DirecTV has given these folks a wink for months on end, keeping their OTA feed active. It does look like the free ride is over.

Bitz69's solution is the best, especially if you have a reasonably strong OTA signal. Just make sure you leave the access card in the unit even though it isn't activated. I don't know about the HR10-250, but another older tuner, a Samsung SIR TS-360, only works if the access card is in it.

Maybe somebody else can confirm this is the case with a HR10-250, too.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Carl Spock said:


> Interesting, Upstream. I didn't know that HD Access activation was part of the deal.


Which is why taking away OTA, but not deauthorizing the box is strange. If HD access is required for the HD box, and he does not subscribe to the HD package, why would they turn off OTA only - why not deauthorized the box.

I'll go back to asking, what logical connection is there between the HD Access package and OTA.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Awful lot of grief over this. The way I see it (and I am a heavy, heavy user of OTA, being in receiving range of two big markets), DirecTV provides equipment, support, and service for satellite television. The fact that the HD boxes support ATSC is a bonus to me. Had it not, I would use the built-in tuner in 3 of my TV's and buy an external tuner for the one that does not have it. It is not DirecTV's responsibility in any way shape or form to provide me with OTA. 
To think otherwise is being a spoiled brat


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

JeffBowser said:


> DirecTV provides equipment, support, and service for satellite television. The fact that the HD boxes support ATSC is a bonus to me. Had it not, I would use the built-in tuner in 3 of my TV's and buy an external tuner for the one that does not have it. It is not DirecTV's responsibility in any way shape or form to provide me with OTA.


They weren't trying to be your buddy by giving you a bonus by including OTA, they were competing with cable and dish.

So no, it's not their responsibility to provide you with OTA, but if they want to compete, they have to, which is why they spent and are spending untold amounts of money to put locals on SAT - not to be your friend, but to compete.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, I'm not sure myself it was needed to compete, but I can see that it could be.

Another thing that bugs me, I see happening here - DirecTV apparently gave OTA access to people that technically didn't qualify. Instead of being happy they got it for the period they did, they are mad it is taken away. 



raott said:


> They weren't trying to be your buddy by giving you a bonus by including OTA, they were competing with cable and dish.
> 
> So no, it's not their responsibility to provide you with OTA, but if they want to compete, they have to, which is why they spent and are spending untold amounts of money to put locals on SAT - not to be your friend, but to compete.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

raott said:


> I'll go back to asking, what logical connection is there between the HD Access package and OTA.


It's not a giant leap of logic here.

HD Access Subscription=Access to HD programming via DirecTv Receivers.

ATSC Tuners in HR20=Access to HD Programming via a DirecTv Receiver

Using our transitive property of equality.

ATSC Tuners in HR20=HD Access Subscription

If you get this we can work on fractions later in the week.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

JeffBowser said:


> Another thing that bugs me, I see happening here - DirecTV apparently gave OTA access to people that technically didn't qualify. Instead of being happy they got it for the period they did, they are mad it is taken away.


IMO, they did not give OTA access to people that technically didn't qualify, I have yet to see language that HD Access is required for OTA.

However, it does appear (from the language that Upstream posted) that they have given the HR20 to those that don't qualify - which is why it doesn't make sense to shut off OTA, it would make sense to deauthorize the box.

I don't really have a skin in this game, I have HD Access, my only issue is the erosion of OTA support I'm seeing from D* since I live in DMA 48 and still don't have HD locals.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

raott said:


> They weren't trying to be your buddy by giving you a bonus by including OTA, they were competing with cable and dish.


Perfect, which HD Locals can he get from cable without a subscription?


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

:lol: :lol: I swear, I don't know what to make of you. Half the time I think you are a jerk in the way you treat people, and the other half you have me in stitches with your wickedly funny quotes.



Xaa said:


> It's not a giant leap of logic here.
> 
> HD Access Subscription=Access to HD programming via DirecTv Receivers.
> 
> ...


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

JeffBowser said:


> :lol: :lol: I swear, I don't know what to make of you. Half the time I think you are a jerk in the way you treat people, and the other half you have me in stitches with your wickedly funny quotes.


It's all in perspective Jeff. I'm both all the time depending upon from where you view me.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

I do not understand your point, you quoted my post that "They weren't trying to be your buddy by giving you a bonus by including OTA, they were competing with cable and dish." and responsed with:



Xaa said:


> Perfect, which HD Locals can he get from cable without a subscription?


So you think that D* added locals out of the goodness of their heart and not to compete with cable and Dish?

I have basically three pay options for TV. Cable offers locals, Dish offers locals and if D*wants my business they needed to have locals - fairly simple to grasp.


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## HDTVFreak07 (Sep 12, 2007)

Ya know, it seems "illegal" of DirecTV to JUST begin to require consumers to subscribe to the HD Access for the free, FREE OTA programming. In the past, you didn't really need to subscribe to HD Access in order to receive OTA. Customers are PAYING for the DVR service anyway so why take the OTA away if a customer doesn't need HD Access? That's absolutely not right. I'm sorry to say this, I think this is where DirecTV is WRONG. I have HD Access myself, including Preimere package and HD Extra Pack. I have to have everything so this doesn't really affect me but I'm concerned about those who can't really afford to pay extras, extras, extras when they already spent enough on a new HDTV set, new DirecTV HD Plus DVR receiver, etc, etc. They've spent enough already, why make them pay MORE? It is highly likely that they created a budget of their own before proceeding to keep up with the Joneses but sometimes they have a limit of what they can spend. This is where DirecTV is shooting themselves in the foot. OTA should be FREE, PERIOD! They should be allowed to record OTA FREE as long as they pay for the DVR service.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

raott said:


> I do not understand your point, you quoted my post that "They weren't trying to be your buddy by giving you a bonus by including OTA, they were competing with cable and dish."
> 
> So you think that D* added locals out of the goodness of their heart and not to compete with cable and Dish?
> 
> I have basically three pay options for TV. Cable offers locals, Dish offers locals and if D*wants my business they needed to have locals - fairly simple to grasp.


I'll help you out. Competition often means meeting what the other competitors are offering. By providing the tuners they are doing that. They don't need to continue to support them without a subscription because cable wouldn't either.

I think you and I agree on why the tuners exist, just not where the competition or support should end.


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## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Ya know, it seems "illegal" of DirecTV to JUST begin to require consumers to subscribe to the HD Access for the free, FREE OTA programming. In the past, you didn't really need to subscribe to HD Access in order to receive OTA. Customers are PAYING for the DVR service anyway so why take the OTA away if a customer doesn't need HD Access? That's absolutely not right. I'm sorry to say this, I think this is where DirecTV is WRONG. I have HD Access myself, including Preimere package and HD Extra Pack. I have to have everything so this doesn't really affect me but I'm concerned about those who can't really afford to pay extras, extras, extras when they already spent enough on a new HDTV set, new DirecTV HD Plus DVR receiver, etc, etc. They've spent enough already, why make them pay MORE? It is highly likely that they created a budget of their own before proceeding to keep up with the Joneses but sometimes they have a limit of what they can spend. This is where DirecTV is shooting themselves in the foot. OTA should be FREE, PERIOD! They should be allowed to record OTA FREE as long as they pay for the DVR service.


i agree with this


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Ya know, it seems "illegal" of DirecTV to JUST begin to require consumers to subscribe to the HD Access for the free, FREE OTA programming. In the past, you didn't really need to subscribe to HD Access in order to receive OTA. Customers are PAYING for the DVR service anyway so why take the OTA away if a customer doesn't need HD Access? That's absolutely not right. I'm sorry to say this, I think this is where DirecTV is WRONG. I have HD Access myself, including Preimere package and HD Extra Pack. I have to have everything so this doesn't really affect me but I'm concerned about those who can't really afford to pay extras, extras, extras when they already spent enough on a new HDTV set, new DirecTV HD Plus DVR receiver, etc, etc. They've spent enough already, why make them pay MORE? It is highly likely that they created a budget of their own before proceeding to keep up with the Joneses but sometimes they have a limit of what they can spend. This is where DirecTV is shooting themselves in the foot. OTA should be FREE, PERIOD! They should be allowed to record OTA FREE as long as they pay for the DVR service.


If they can't afford the HD Access Fee, they can't afford to get HD programming through the ATSC tuners in their DirecTv equipment. It's that simple. They can still get OTA for free, but not supported by DirecTv through DirecTv equipment.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

raott said:


> They weren't trying to be your buddy by giving you a bonus by including OTA, they were competing with cable and dish.
> 
> So no, it's not their responsibility to provide you with OTA, but if they want to compete, they have to, which is why they spent and are spending untold amounts of money to put locals on SAT - not to be your friend, but to compete.


Exactly. This is very similar to the lack of tuners in the HR21. Back in the day, the Sat companies added OTA tuners to the boxes as an enticement to get people to use them. There were plenty of people who only started with Satellite to get an ATSC tuner, but of course, Dish and DirecTV made money off these new subs. Dish started with the 6000, which did have a $129 module for OTA tuning, DIrecTV had a box with them built in, but it was about the same cost as the Dish box with the module. For a while, this was the only game in town if you wanted HD locals as few TV''s had tuners built in and cable had nothing.

Then, Cable systems started having HD locals on their services and Dish started only selling the 6000 in a bundle with the tuner module. The next generation of boxes after that from DirecTV and Dish had them built in also, More and More TV's had built in OTA tuners, then the DVR's had them when they when they came out. At that point, they had no way to do HD locals on Sat so they had to do this to comepte and ensure they kept the customers and made it easy for people to sign up.

Now, since DirecTV and Dish have many HD locals on Satellite and expect to have the majority soon, find ourselves at this point, where DirecTV at least is trying to wean people off them providing a HD OTA tuner for free and get some moeny for the trouble. Good strategy long term for making money and probably fair if you think about it in general terms, but it would go down better if they had announced it and maybe waited a little bit longer until the Tuner for the HR21 was fully in the field, but hey, you have to start sometime.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I absolutely back Xaa's logic on this. DirecTV owes nobody free OTA.


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## Azalo (Oct 24, 2006)

So DirecTV ended up giving me HD Access free for 12 months. I know some will be upset because they think no one should get anythign free from DirecTV but I just calmly told them my side of the story and thats what they offered, I didn't threaten to leave or sue, or swear or anything like that. Thanks for all the input both pro and con. I think if this is their policy they should let customers know, especially when you are downgrading your service, you should get a pop-up or an email saying, this will disable OTA as well, if I would have known ahead of time I wouldn't have cancelled HD Access.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> It is not DirecTV's responsibility in any way shape or form to provide me with OTA.
> To think otherwise is being a spoiled brat


Maybe, maybe not.

It could be another example of customers falling victim to DirecTV's business policies and poor customer service.

Hypothetical example:

You live in an area in which DirecTV does not provide HD locals. It's the end of 2006, and your wife just bought you a new HDTV as a Christmas present. You call DirecTV to find out about upgrading to HD service.

The DirecTV rep tells you that DirecTV doesn't offer HD locals in your area. He tells you that the price for an HR20 is $299 + $20 installation. You ask the rep why you should get HD, if DirecTV doesn't offer local HD. He tells you that you will still have national HD channels from DirecTV; you can record local HD OTA on the HR20; DirecTV is rapidly expanding its HD offering and your locals will be available by mid-2007. As a bonus, the rep tells you that he will waive the HD fee for 6 months.

Now it is July 2007. You are reasonable happy with the HR20. But you discover that 80 percent of what you watch and record is the local channels, which you receive over-the-air, not from DirecTV. DirecTV just started charging you $10 per month for HD service, and you think "this isn't worth it; 80 percent of what I watch and record is the local channels, which I recieve over-the-air, not from DirecTV."

So you think about your options. (a) You can pay the $10 per month, but you feel like it is wasted money. (b) You can cancel DirecTV and go to local cable, but you will have a huge termination penalty for the remaining 18 months on your commitment. (c) You can cancel DirecTV HD, keeping your commitment for SD, and go buy an HD Tivo for $300 to record over the air programming. (d) You can cancel DirecTV HD, keeping your commitment for SD, and use the OTA cababilities of the HR20 for over-the-air programming.

Because DirecTV already charged you $300 for an HD DVR, you don't want to sink another $300 into a stand-alone Tivo that does the same thing. So you decide against option C, and instead select D.

You are not being a spoiled brat. You are making the best of poor options which were caused by DirecTV.

If DirecTV's customer support were reliable and accurate, you may not have been led to believe that you would have DirecTV HD Locals when your six-months free expired.

If DirecTV did not charge you $300 for the HR20, you would be more agreeable if they told you that you had to return the HR20 for a non-HD DVR when you cancelled HD service. And you might be more willing to spend $300 for a stand-alone Tivo, because you will not have just spent the same $300 for a DirecTV version.

If you were not locked into a 2-year commitment, you might choose cable.

But DirecTV has policies and processes which result in customers getting incorrect information, making capital commitments with proprietary equipment, and being charged high termination fees if they are dissatisfied. It's no wonder DirecTV's customer satisfaction ratings rival the IRS.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Well, in this case it's the customer that's assuming the OTA HD is not wrapped up in the HD service being sold at the same time. The CSR can be more clear, but it's never said otherwise. The customer is making their own assumption about what the equipment will do without a sub.

The fact that some would and do find the OTA portion worth the most is the very reason DirecTv doesn't continue to support it through their service without a subscription. At that point it's competing with what they are selling. They include it if you buy what they are selling which is HD Access both over the sat and OTA.

They don't prevent anyone from using their own ATSC tuners to decide they don't want DirecTv HD Access, they simply don't allow the leased equipment to do it without a subscription.

It's no different than them turning off HBO if you don't subscribe. You either choose the service or you don't.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Upstream, some good (and calm) points. In fact, when I went with DirecTV ages ago (before HD existed), I knew going in that there were no locals for me. My local cable company was so bad, I didn't care. I threw up an NTSC antenna, and made do until DirecTV delivered SD sat locals, then, finally much later, the HD locals. So, I have some direct experience here. DirecTV is a satellite company, not an OTA provider, that's really the bottom line.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Azalo said:


> So DirecTV ended up giving me HD Access free for 12 months. I know some will be upset because they think no one should get anythign free from DirecTV but I just calmly told them my side of the story and thats what they offered, I didn't threaten to leave or sue, or swear or anything like that. Thanks for all the input both pro and con. I think if this is their policy they should let customers know, especially when you are downgrading your service, you should get a pop-up or an email saying, this will disable OTA as well, if I would have known ahead of time I wouldn't have cancelled HD Access.


Nah, if they offer it take it, I know I would.

Having said that, if you really feel that if you had known you wouldn't have cancelled HD Access, then you could have simply went to the website and turned it back on at your cost once you did know. 

Either way, I ask for something free every time I speak to them. In the same way you did. Friendly and without threat. They can make their own business decision whether to give it or not.

Glad it worked out for you.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

This is just another example of poor communication practices of D*.

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that 99% of those leasing an HD-DVR are going to want/need HD access, for which there is a fee.

It is perfectly reasonable to tie HD reception via their equipment to a revenue stream, irrespective of whether it is coming from a satellite or OTA...it IS coming via their equipment and their equipment is designed to both receive and record OTA, plus provide Guide data. There is no free lunch...at least not any more, which is precisely where the current problem comes from...but I'll get to that later.

Their equipment is doing the *work* and is in direct competition with their primary revenue stream: satellite programming. It makes little sense for them to cut their own throat. The fact that they may be folding in the OTA access/recording costs with the HD Access fee, is a *good* thing, in my opinion. After all, using the same logic above, they could tier on yet another set of OTA costs (totally new, and outside the HD access fee), using the cost of Guide maintenance as a justification.

We OTA freaks should count ourselves lucky that the "associated costs/revenue streams" for OTA appear to be folded into HD Access. I say "appears", because D* is demonstrably awful when it comes to customer communications, and at any time could abandon the OTA as part of HD Access logic, and again, with no prior notice, decide to provide "HD-Xtra OTA" along with a new fee and a fresh jar of petroleum jelly. I put nothing past D*, when it comes to providing timely, accurate, effective communication to their customers.

This is just another in a list of cases where something appears to be "taken away" from customers and only replaced for a fee. What people are used to, they come to expect. What kind of cretin at D* doesn't comprehend this basic market tenet?

When you have a policy, and do not enforce it over a long period of time, it ceases to be a policy, and customers expect no change. When you then change it, they squeal. This is a surprise?....only to D* it appears.

All of this aside, I have no objection to tying the functionality of OTA in their receivers to the HD-Access fee.


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## ub1934 (Dec 30, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> My guess (and it is just a guess, as I haven't been told).
> The royalties they have to pay on the ATSC tuners.


How can they turn off FREE ota ? If what you say is true then why do we still get FREE ota with our TV with ATSC tuners built in ? Will the TV makers now tell us we have to pay to keep the tuners active ?


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Azalo said:


> So DirecTV ended up giving me HD Access free for 12 months...


I'm glad things worked out for you.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

OTA is free, true, but the equipment to receive it is not.



ub1934 said:


> How can they turn off FREE ota ? If what you say is true then why do we still get FREE ota with our TV with ATSC tuners built in ? Will the TV makers now tell us we have to pay to keep the tuners active ?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

ub1934 said:


> How can they turn off FREE ota ? If what you say is true then why do we still get FREE ota with our TV with ATSC tuners built in ? Will the TV makers now tell us we have to pay to keep the tuners active ?


The signal may be free, but the broadcasters are not competing with themselves. Once D* allowed/provided for OTA and recording, it put that function in direct competition with their primary revenue stream: satellite programming packages.

HD Access is a "cute way" to recover some costs associated with OTA (engineering/guide/etc). Be grateful if they keep it this way....see my other post.


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## ub1934 (Dec 30, 2005)

hasan said:


> The signal may be free, but the broadcasters are not competing with themselves. Once D* allowed/provided for OTA and recording, it put that function in direct competition with their primary revenue stream: satellite programming packages.
> 
> HD Access is a "cute way" to recover some costs associated with OTA (engineering/guide/etc). Be grateful if they keep it this way....see my other post.


But D did charge us for the receiver so the cost should have been built in at the start .


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

If you've got HD DirecTV equipment, but don't pay the HD Access fee, you do not get the HD channels, correct? So essentially then, your HR20 is an R15, or your H20 is a D1x.. To the best of my knowledge, R15's and D1x's do NOT get HD OTA (or any OTA for that matter). (Personal note: I can't imagine a scenario where I would pay DirecTV for an HD DVR and not intend to have HD service - just doesn't make sense to me)

If you've got an HDTV and don't get any cable/satellite service, you either connect your OTA antenna directly to the HDTV tuner or you use an HD receiver.

I'm not sure I'd be real happy about it either, but if I don't want to pay DirecTV for their HD service, I would expect I'd have to find an alternate solution. If there is DirecTV equipment designed to provide me with HD reception, but I choose to not pay for that aspect of it, then I'm on my own to provide the HD signal to my TV.

Having not been a cable subscriber for well over a decade, I'm really not sure what they have to offer now or how they do things. From looking at the junk mail I've gotten from them, it seems to me that they require a digital receiver to receive their HD stuff. Aside from some where you can connect the cable directly to a QAM tuner, take the digital box out of the equation and your HD locals alternative is also an antenna-to-TV connection or a separate HD tuner, right? And from my limited history with cable, I don't know that they even provide an OTA solution at all, do they? I'm not sure where the whole cable thing is entering into this - if cable is providing your locals, you're paying them for it. If your not paying them for it, you're not getting it from them.

As for the OTA IS FREE, FREE, FREE arguments, you're absolutely correct. Connect an antenna to your TV or to an HD Tuner and there you have it. There is no FCC regulation that any entity that provides TV service MUST also provide OTA services.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

hasan said:


> This is just another example of poor communication practices of D*.


Yep. As Azalo said in his update, if he had known he would have made a different decision. It is nice that DirecTV is giving him free HD Access for 12 months, but since Azalo said he would have paid for HD Access had he known the implications, I don't think he was that upset about the $10 per month. It sounds like he was more upset about feeling like DirecTV was jerking him around.

And it is good that the $10 per month credit appeases Azalo. But it doesn't really solve the problem which let to this issue for Azalo and similar issues for others.

And one day, someone at DirecTV will say "We have to stop handing out so many $10 credits", and they will think the credits are the problem, when actually they are just DirecTV's way of treating the symptoms.


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

This is more a consequence of going to a LEASE model.

In "the old world," you purchased an HR10-250 (for example), and could use it as OTA-only, without any D* hookup.

Leasing, you don't get HD, you don't have HD, period.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Word Upstream. They gave away 120 bucks to a customer who would have paid full price. A little more clarity of expectation would have saved DirecTv what is likely a CSR's gross pay for a day.


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## cadet502 (Jun 17, 2005)

_PROGRAMMING AGREEMENT. Within 30 days of provision of DIRECTV equipment to you, or on the date that the professional installer has installed or is prepared to install your DIRECTV equipment, whichever is sooner, you agree to activate each and every DIRECTV Receiver ordered by you or provided to you with any DIRECTV® base programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo. or above); Jadeworld; or, any qualifying international service bundle, which bundle shall include either the DIRECTV® BASIC programming package (valued at $9.99 per mo.) or the DIRECTV PREFERRED CHOICE™ programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo.) together with any WorldDirect™ international-language service. DVR service activation ($5.99/mo.) required for DVR leases; HD Access fee ($9.99/mo.) required for HD Receiver leases; and, both DVR service and HD Access fee payment required for HD DVR leases. In certain markets, programming and pricing may vary. DIRECTV PROGRAMMING AND PRICING SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME._

The above is the Leased equipment addendum, the way I read it, if you are leasing an HD DVR, you are required to maintain programming INCLUDING the HD Access fee AND the DVR fee.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

hancox said:


> This is more a consequence of going to a LEASE model.
> 
> In "the old world," you purchased an HR10-250 (for example), and could use it as OTA-only, without any D* hookup.
> 
> Leasing, you don't get HD, you don't have HD, period.


Nope just coincidence hancox. They didn't foresee the HD model at the time they designed the Hr10-250 the way they do now. You can own an HR20 and it would still be the same.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

JLucPicard said:


> I'm not sure where the whole cable thing is entering into this - if cable is providing your locals, you're paying them for it. If your not paying them for it, you're not getting it from them.


Cable factors in because I suspect many people only care whether the provider (dish, D* or cable) offers HD locals and don't care where those locals are coming from.

In my area, a fairly good sized city, the only way to get HD locals through D* is via OTA. Looking at my overall pay choices I can either - subscribe to cable and get HD locals or subscribe to satellite where my ONLY D* option to get HD locals is via OTA (and now be forced to also get an additional package).

With cable I am paying for locals as part of my base subscription, D* put an OTA tuner on their boxes, not as a gift, but as a way to compete with what cable could already deliver.

This is just one more nickel and dime step in D*'s march to act more and more like a cable company every day.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

cadet502 said:


> _PROGRAMMING AGREEMENT. Within 30 days of provision of DIRECTV equipment to you, or on the date that the professional installer has installed or is prepared to install your DIRECTV equipment, whichever is sooner, you agree to activate each and every DIRECTV Receiver ordered by you or provided to you with any DIRECTV® base programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo. or above); Jadeworld; or, any qualifying international service bundle, which bundle shall include either the DIRECTV® BASIC programming package (valued at $9.99 per mo.) or the DIRECTV PREFERRED CHOICE™ programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo.) together with any WorldDirect™ international-language service. DVR service activation ($5.99/mo.) required for DVR leases; HD Access fee ($9.99/mo.) required for HD Receiver leases; and, both DVR service and HD Access fee payment required for HD DVR leases. In certain markets, programming and pricing may vary. DIRECTV PROGRAMMING AND PRICING SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME._
> 
> The above is the Leased equipment addendum, the way I read it, if you are leasing an HD DVR, you are required to maintain programming INCLUDING the HD Access fee AND the DVR fee.


That is correct, so why are those subscribers being allowed to continue to use the HD DVR at all, by those terms, the HR20 should be deauthorized altogether. Why would only OTA be shut off.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Xaa said:


> Nope just coincidence hancox. They didn't foresee the HD model at the time they designed the Hr10-250 the way they do now. You can own an HR20 and it would still be the same.


I don't know if I'd dismiss hancox post quite so easily, Xaa. I'm thiinking like him. That Samsung SIR-TS360 I mentioned upthread would also receive HD OTA perfectly fine. That was purchased, not leased.

I understand what you mean, that DirecTV didn't have their current business plan even conceived, much less in place, when the HR10-250 was designed and built. But I don't think you can disconnect the business plan and the hardware so easily. The leasing model gives DirecTV much more control over hardware. Making HD Access a requirement for using the ATSC tuner in their piece seems reasonable to me. The few that actually own a HR20 outright are the exceptions to the rule and outside that plan. I'd argue that leasing equipment and controlling our access to using that equipment are two sides of the same coin to DirecTV.

I agree with hancox. I bet if we all still owned our receivers, this would never have happened.


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## msmith (Apr 23, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> From what I have been told...
> That is correct.
> 
> HD Access is requrired to access the ATSC options on the current generation of the hardware.


That doesn't seem right to me. It's not technically required. If your box is going to receive free signals, it should receive them regardless of whether or not you purchase similar signals from the provider.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> I agree with hancox. I bet if we all still owned our receivers, this would never have happened.


No guarantees .. I do not know the answer to this question, but my suspicion is that the policy is true regardless of ownership status.


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## msmith (Apr 23, 2002)

tronn said:


> hmmm... anyone know of a cheap alterative to OTA HD Tuner?
> 
> - as in a stand-alone box


You can get the new converter box, but I don't know whether or not they put out real HD. They're supposed to cost $70-80 minus the $40 coupon from the government.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

msmith said:


> You can get the new converter box, but I don't know whether or not they put out real HD. They're supposed to cost $70-80 minus the $40 coupon from the government.


The ones that qualify for the $40 coupon will not output an HD signal, only SD. That is one of the specific requirements to qualify for the coupon program. The specific purpose of the coupon program is to allow those that only have an analog TV set to continue to use that set for OTA programming after the ATSC cutover next February.

Carl


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> No guarantees .. I do not know the answer to this question, but my suspicion is that the policy is true regardless of ownership status.


I wasn't clear. I'm sure it is now. Whether you own an HR20 or not, I'd bet that you'd have to have HD Access to get OTA channels in HD.

My point was that the change in the business plan towards a leasing model and limiting our use of the equipment through requiring HD Access for OTA HD are different aspects of the same decision. In an alternate reality, where we would all own our stuff, this thread wouldn't exist.

As I read hancox, this is what he was saying in a whole lot less words than I am taking.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

In an alternate reality, your avatar would have an afro goatee.


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## meller (Oct 4, 2007)

what do expect from Directv after all these years? I have been with them since 1995 and while I am a loyal customer this type of behavior from them is nothing new. They do what they want when they want and as a customer you have to decide if you will tolerate it or not. I totally understand your feelings about this. If it really bugs you, consider the alternatives. We are all free to do business with who we like. Directv never did have a great bedside manner.

Thanks


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

AfroSpock - in a perfect world, folks wouldn't be so darned self-centered, and all of us would be better off. We have a culture of selfishness and a mind-set that we somehow _deserve_ everything (both on a corporate and personal level). This is the root of a lot of complaints, the issue is bigger than DirecTV took away my OTA, or DirecTV can't sync my sound, I'd bet the ton of money I saved on my car insurance by switching to Geico that these people are generally unhappy individuals on some level, period.

[soapbox mode off]


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> AfroSpock - in a perfect world, folks wouldn't be so darned self-centered, and all of us would be better off. We have a culture of selfishness and a mind-set that we somehow _deserve_ everything (both on a corporate and personal level). This is the root of a lot of complaints, the issue is bigger than DirecTV took away my OTA, or DirecTV can't sync my sound, I'd bet the ton of money I saved on my car insurance by switching to Geico that these people are generally unhappy individuals on some level, period.
> 
> [soapbox mode off]


To be fair, if Geico provided insurance whose coverage was random, no one would be happy with it, notwithstanding their personality defects. While there are many potential causes of audio sync issues, the extent that D* is responsible for any of them calls into question the fundamental operation of a D* box. If the audio/video is not in sync, that fundamental test is is not met. Are you suggesting consumers should just accept this (and other) kind(s) of malperformance in equipment/programming they are paying for?

I think it is a complete mis-characterization to say that the "root" of a lot of complaints is somehow a personality defect of the complainers. If there weren't real issues, the complaint levels would be much lower. The manner in which D* has handled several of these areas hasn't helped.

So, please spare us the psycho-babble and stick to the issues. There are *real* issues with several of these boxes. They are getting better, and are a very good product as they sit. They do need to get better and address specific issues. There are *real* issues with D*'s "methods" (to be kind).

Blaming the victims is no solution.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

It would seem my point went over your head, or was uncomfortably close to home. My point is not any given complaint of itself, my point is about the overblown handwringing over what is essentially minute trivia in the scheme of life. Take this thread, for instance - is all this grief over a silly OTA tuner really worth the mental effort?

Really, hasan, you were one of the last people I expected to hit a nerve with with my comments


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

raott said:


> Is this a new policy Earl? I've never had an issue because I've always had the HD package, the connection between the two just seems very odd.


nope been in effect for a while.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> It would seem my point went over your head, or was uncomfortably close to home. My point is not any given complaint of itself, my point is about the overblow handwringing over what is essentially minute trivia in the scheme of life. Really, hasan, you were one of the last people I expected to hit a nerve with with my comments


I just don't much care for amateur psychology and attributing state of mind to other people. There are plenty of rational points to be made without resorting to psycho-analyzing people you disagree with. That was my real objection. What may appear to be overblown hand-wringing to some is justifiable indignance to others.

I have a bad response to accusations of being"whiners", or in your terms maladjustedly unhappy, when people have a legitimate complaint, even if they don't make it very elegantly...that's all.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

raott said:


> Can you show me any writing that describes this policy, including any disclaimer on the box or advertising of an HR20 that says HD Access is required to use the OTA tuners.


so far, this... Directv Equipment Lease Addendum (part of the agreement) 
*PROGRAMMING AGREEMENT.* Within 30 days of provision of DIRECTV equipment to you, or on the date that the professional installer has installed or is prepared to install your DIRECTV equipment, whichever is sooner, you agree to activate each and every DIRECTV Receiver ordered by you or provided to you with any DIRECTV® base programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo. or above); Jadeworld; or, any qualifying international service bundle, which bundle shall include either the DIRECTV® BASIC programming package (valued at $9.99 per mo.) or the DIRECTV PREFERRED CHOICE™ programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo.) together with any WorldDirect™ international-language service. DVR service activation ($5.99/mo.) required for DVR leases; *HD Access fee ($9.99/mo.) required for HD Receiver leases*; and, both DVR service and HD Access fee payment required for HD DVR leases. In certain markets, programming and pricing may vary. *DIRECTV PROGRAMMING AND PRICING SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME.*

*RETURN OF DIRECTV EQUIPMENT.* If you cease to be DIRECTV's customer for any reason (whether voluntarily or involuntarily) *or if you decide to disconnect/cancel/terminate your DVR service or HD Access fee (if you are leasing a DVR or HD Receiver), you must call DIRECTV within seven (7) days after the termination of your DIRECTV programming services, DVR service or HD Access fee, as applicable, to (i) make arrangements for DIRECTV to pick up all your DIRECTV equipment; *or (ii) obtain information from DIRECTV necessary to arrange for a ground or air freight service to pick up and deliver all of your DIRECTV equipment to DIRECTV. You acknowledge that the DIRECTV equipment belongs to DIRECTV and the DIRECTV equipment, including the access card inserted into each receiver, must be returned to DIRECTV in good working order, normal wear and tear excepted. In the event that all of the DIRECTV equipment is not returned to DIRECTV within thirty (30) days of the termination of your DIRECTV programming services or is damaged when it is returned to DIRECTV, you agree to pay DIRECTV the sum of $55 per each DIRECTV standard receiver; $200 for each DIRECTV DVR Receiver; $240 for each DIRECTV HD Receiver; or $470 for each DIRECTV HD DVR Receiver that is not returned to DIRECTV or that is damaged when it is returned to DIRECTV as compensation for a portion of the expenses incurred by DIRECTV in establishing your account and providing you the DIRECTV equipment for your use. Visit DIRECTV.com or call 1-800-531-5000 for details.

bit of a moot point about HD access needed for OTA tuners. *No HD ACCESS, NO H2x or HR2x rcvr That is all there is to it.*


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

curt8403 said:


> bit of a moot point about HD access needed for OTA tuners. *No HD ACCESS, NO H2x or HR2x rcvr That is all there is to it.*


But that is not what is happening in reality. They have not taken the boxes away, they continue to allow them to be used for service (except OTA).


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

That's a straw man's argument raott. You're essentially saying that they're giving him a break in one area so he should get it everywhere. Kind of a let no good deed go unpunished sort of thing.

No matter how much you complain about it , the fact that DirecTv considers receiving OTA HD via the ATSC tuners in the HR20 to be governed by their HD Access fee isn't changing and it makes sense. Both common and business sense.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

raott said:


> But that is not what is happening in reality. They have not taken the boxes away, they continue to allow them to be used for service (except OTA).


that is simply a bit of kindness on the part of Directv. would you feel cheated to pay 99.+ 99. + 19.95 and have an international package like basic (locals only) and 1 Vietnamese, and then find that you pay 9.99 for locals only in HD or lose your service?


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## bayareamtnbiker (Jan 30, 2007)

I sense a couple of trolls have become active on this forum, one who pretends to be a lawyer and another who pretends to be a psychologist! They shouldn’t take that comment personally, however.

A year ago when I discussed leasing the HR20 w/the D* rep, I was told it provided OTA HD just like my H10. When I found out it in fact wasn’t working for OTA, D* agreed to provide 6 mos of interim satellite until they fixed OTA, which they did, and this service timed out. No problem. That was long ago. If you think what D* has now done is right, then fine. I just know from experience that you can only treat customers this way for awhile, like when you have them over a barrel, as in, they are using your equipment and it will cost them to switch. Hmmmm. I’m moving in 2 months …… Hmmmmm. It isn't about the few bucks involved by any stretch of the imagination, even for a shrink-wannabe.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

The only problem with this is that it's not your box. It's theirs. Your correct that it's not "technically" required - the requirement is coming from the TOS.



msmith said:


> That doesn't seem right to me. It's not technically required. If your box is going to receive free signals, it should receive them regardless of whether or not you purchase similar signals from the provider.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

curt8403 said:


> that is simply a bit of kindness on the part of Directv. would you feel cheated to pay 99.+ 99. + 19.95 and have an international package like basic (locals only) and 1 Vietnamese, and then find that you pay 9.99 for locals only in HD or lose your service?


If they are not enforcing the contractual provision as stated in the contract - (which it seems they are not), they run the risk of making those provisions completely unenforceable (unless there is a waiver clause - which I'm sure D*s lawyers were smart enough to include).

However, even if they have not waived the provision, they don't get to substitute its terms. You cannot substitute terms in a contract as you please. You cannot substitute "we'll turn off your OTA" for "you have to send back your HD DVR"
I have still yet to see a provision anywhere or a disclaimer anywhere that HD Access is required for use of the OTA tuners.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

bayareamtnbiker said:


> I sense a couple of trolls have become active on this forum, one who pretends to be a lawyer and another who pretends to be a psychologist! They shouldn't take that comment personally, however.
> 
> A year ago when I discussed leasing the HR20 w/the D* rep, I was told it provided OTA HD just like my H10. When I found out it in fact wasn't working for OTA, D* agreed to provide 6 mos of interim satellite until they fixed OTA, which they did, and this service timed out. No problem. That was long ago. If you think what D* has now done is right, then fine. I just know from experience that you can only treat customers this way for awhile, like when you have them over a barrel, as in, they are using your equipment and it will cost them to switch. Hmmmm. I'm moving in 2 months &#8230;&#8230; Hmmmmm. It isn't about the few bucks involved by any stretch of the imagination, even for a shrink-wannabe.


if you are referring to me as a shrink wannabe, no I am not. I am much worse

El Diablo de los Rios Muerto.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Upstream said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> It could be another example of customers falling victim to DirecTV's business policies and poor customer service.
> 
> ...


That's all well and good except for the part where, when you paid that $299 and signed up for DirecTV, you agreed to have HD Access active on your account.

When you choose option D and cancel your HD Access, DirecTV sat down and started looking at their options. They could ask you to send your box back, replacing it with an SD box, which has no OTA by the way, and which does not require an HD Access subscription.

That seems like alot of work though, getting the box back, then sending a new one, etc.

So instead, DirecTV chooses option B. They simply eliminate the ability to watch HD programming. Period. By any delivery method.

If you want HD, you pay for HD. If you don't want to pay for it, then you get the same capabilities on the HR20 that you would get if you had any other DirecTV SD box.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

raott said:


> But that is not what is happening in reality. They have not taken the boxes away, they continue to allow them to be used for service (except OTA).


True.

But in essence, they have "taken back" exactly what makes the H2x/HR2x unique.

A person chooses NOT to pay for HD access, and they get EXACTLY the capabilites they have if D* were to take the HR20 and replace it with an R15.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

And to clarify this a bit further maybe: If you want to RECORD OTA, by using a DirecTV HD-DVR, you have to pay for it. If you choose to receive OTA signals to your TV, that's always free.



Sharkie_Fan said:


> If you want HD, you pay for HD. If you don't want to pay for it, then you get the same capabilities on the HR20 that you would get if you had any other DirecTV SD box.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

OK, I've been coming in and reading in this thread at various times throughout the day and am still a little puzzled about something. I went back and read the first few posts, so if this is touched on somewhere in between, I may be missing it now.

When the OP cancelled the HD Access, did that happen immediately? Did he actually lose the HD sat channels immediately, but still had OTA? From what I read it seemed like there were two weeks between cancelling HD Access and when he lost the HD OTA. Am I understanding that right? Or did the CSR cancel it on his account, but he may have actually still had access to say, SciFI-HD or FxHD or A&E-HD for that two weeks as well until the "authorization" hit his card?

Where I'm going with this is, was the HR20 designed so the HD Sat & OTA functions are authorized via the Access Card and they are not independent of each other? Were there people who had cancelled HD Access, could not get the HD Sat channels, but were still getting the HD OTA? Or did losing them both occur at the same time? Does the current design as it is right now allow for independent authorization of the HD Sat channels and HD OTA (without taking into account any "they could program that" or "by a simple software upgrade" or any of that - just how it stands right now)?

I'm just trying to get straight in my head whether this is truly a "they changed their mind" situation, or is it not functionally possible to shut off HD Sats and leave HD OTA intact? Is it possible to have independent authorization for HD sats and OTA?


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## REDSKINSFAN47 (Sep 2, 2007)

curt8403 said:


> also no HD access at all, No OTA HD.


in april of 2007 i baught an hd tv and a h20,i had this box activated,i didn't have hd access until i did my upgrade in june.i got ota hd on that h20 box


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## toneman (Oct 23, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> OTA is free, true, but the equipment to receive it is not.


Yes, the equipment to receive it is not free...but have you heard anything about ever being required to pay some sort of monthly access fee in order to receive OTA HD programming on a plasma or LCD that has a built-in OTA HD tuner?

Given the above--are you insinuating that in the case of TVs/displays w/ built-in OTA tuners, those owners essentially paid some kind of up-front fee (probably included in the price of the TV itself) in order to receive OTA on their displays' tuners?

You are right--D* does not owe us any free OTA programming (HD or SD)...but IMHO I think it's a bit cheap (regardless of whether D*'s policy allows them to require HD Access in order to receive OTA...and yes I know D* is in the business of making money, but still) for them to require that the only way we can receive OTA on their equipment is by paying the monthly HD Access fee, especially since no such fee is required to receive OTA HD programming on a display w/ a built-in OTA tuner...not unless someone can provide valid proof that we paid for some one-time fee up front for it when we purchased our sets. What if you own a D* equipment that you bought outright (e.g., HR10-250)--would you still feel it fair for/if D* to require us to pay the HD Access fee if we wanted to receive OTA on the HR10-250 (I'm not saying that such is actually the case one way or the other--I'm just hypothesizing)? I know the last question is sort of moot given that eventually the HR10-250 will be nothing more than a A/V doorstop, if not still useful as an HD OTA-only tuner and/or playback of stored recordings.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> That's all well and good except for the part where, when you paid that $299 and signed up for DirecTV, you agreed to have HD Access active on your account.


In my example, the only reason the hypothetical customer agreed to pay the $299 for the HR20 and subscribe to HD was because he was led to believe that he would have HD locals from DirecTV by mid-year, and he was getting the HD fee waived until that happened.

And although DirecTV is correct, by their terms of service, to disable OTA, their business policies and poor customer service created a dissatisfied customer (not a spoiled brat, as someone else claimed). In my example, like with the OP in this thread, had DirecTV provided accuracy and clarity in customer service, and consistency and fairness in their policies, the customer would not have been dissatisfied.

In my example, I did not identify what happened next. But the OP in this thread is receiving $120 in credits (I'm surprised he wasn't also offered 3 months of Starz). That's good for him. But it is just another case of DirecTV throwing money away rather than fixing their problem.


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> From what I have been told...
> That is correct.
> 
> HD Access is requrired to access the ATSC options on the current generation of the hardware.


holy cow...what a great reason to keep hdtivo!


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

newsposter said:


> holy cow...what a great reason to keep hdtivo!


ya , only OTA HD and the rest of the unit will be SD only as MPEG 2 HD dies on the vine

El DIablo De Los Rio Muerto


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

toneman said:


> Given the above--are you insinuating that in the case of TVs/displays w/ built-in OTA tuners, those owners essentially paid some kind of up-front fee (probably included in the price of the TV itself) in order to receive OTA on their displays' tuners?


Apples and oranges man. TV makers are in the business of selling displays. Features sell displays and their business model works that way. DirecTV is a television service provider. It would be insane for them to invest in technology and then support technology that devalues what they have to sell. They do provide it and support it as part of their service as another poster noted to be competitive in the marketplace. A marketplace where EVERY content provider requires a subscription in order to receive local channels.

If someone wants free OTA, it's available with an antenna and an ATSC tuner. But don't expect DirecTv to cut their own throat and give it away.

I eat lunch at this joint and they give away free soup while you wait for your lunch. Yummy free Chicken Vegetable soup. You can't go there and just get the soup for free though, you have to order lunch. Soup alone is $2.99. Selling lunch is how they make money. Providing free soup is how they sell more lunches. You only get it if you buy lunch.

Same thing here. DirecTv sells programming packages and if you buy the HD Access package, you can have the free OTA and they'll support it with guide data, an integrated DVR etc. No HD Access, no OTA. Or put another way, "No soup for you!"


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Mmmm. Soup.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Upstream said:


> Mmmm. Soup.


this thing is approaching melt down.


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Xaa said:


> Apples and oranges man. TV makers are in the business of selling displays. Features sell displays and their business model works that way. DirecTV is a television service provider. It would be insane for them to invest in technology and then support technology that devalues what they have to sell. They do provide it and support it as part of their service as another poster noted to be competitive in the marketplace. A marketplace where EVERY content provider requires a subscription in order to receive local channels.
> 
> If someone wants free OTA, it's available with an antenna and an ATSC tuner. But don't expect DirecTv to cut their own throat and give it away.
> 
> ...


To fit your "free soup" example he would have to disconnect completely and expect the OTA to work. As I understand it he is still a paying customer just not subscribed to the HD service. He's ordering lunch its just not a Kobe Filet. I would probably feel the same way too... Oh wait I can't get OTA either because I have a HR21 and D* has no announced plans to offer locals in my area in the near future. I do however subscribe to HD-DVR service.


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## davesrave (May 29, 2005)

I subscribe to HD yet I think DTV's position blows. period. I rent the box because I don't have a choice, and it has OTA capability. DTV is being disingenuious at best. 'Nuff said.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

When I bought my HDTV back in 2003, the store threw in an HD tuner (basically, a set top box for HD). These exist. If you have DirecTV and don't want to pay the HD Access fee, you still have options for HD OTA. DirecTV is not required to provide it for you just because you are their customer. You do have other options.

DirecTV produced two High-Def units that included OTA tuners. Their Terms of Service state that you subscribe to HD Access (and DVR service for the HD DVR). For whatever reason (which is still a mystery to me), some people cancel their HD Access. If DirecTV strictly enforced their TOS, they would require you to send that HD/HD-DVR Receiver back and replace it with a D1x or R15. If they did, this whole conversation would be moot. As it is, they don't seem to be requiring that, but since you are no longer paying for HD Access, they are no longer providing HD Access.

As it is, in the case of the HR20, you are left with a unit that does a lot more than the R15 does. And if you want to add HD Access back at some point, you just call/go online and do that. If DirecTV WAS enforcing the return of the units, and you subsequently decided to go back to having HD Access, you would have to acquire the HD equipment all over again - and probably pay for the SD to HD upgrade!


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

rjheard said:


> To fit your "free soup" example he would have to disconnect completely and expect the OTA to work. As I understand it he is still a paying customer just not subscribed to the HD service. He's ordering lunch its just not a Kobe Filet. I would probably feel the same way too... Oh wait I can't get OTA either because I have a HR21 and D* has no announced plans to offer locals in my area in the near future. I do however subscribe to HD-DVR service.


Is it really that hard to understand that the ATSC tuner is considered a source of HD by DirecTv and thus HD Access is required? I can see that you have a separate OTA beef.

Why would or why should they provide an option to you at their cost that degrades one of their revenue streams? Especially, if we base anything off of the OP, the market will bear customers paying the HD Access fee even if 80% of what they want is from OTA? (he said had he known he wouldn't have disconnected it)

The OP could easily get his OTA another way, but he wants and prefers it through the HR20 AND is willing to pay for it. I don't hold an MBA, but that to me looks like a place where you charge.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

davesrave said:


> I subscribe to HD yet I think DTV's position blows. period. I rent the box because I don't have a choice, and it has OTA capability. DTV is being disingenuious at best. 'Nuff said.


Oh 'Nuff said, I guess we're all set then. Thanks for wrapping it up for us. 

They're in business to make money not invest in and develop equipment so they can eliminate their own revenue streams.

I don't understand what you mean by "I don't have a choice" Did they kick your door in and install it at gunpoint or did you willingly call them and ask them to do it?


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## Incog-Neato (Apr 21, 2006)

Probably the same logic that won't let you watch ALREADY RECORDED programs (after a power cycle) if you aren't hooked up to a dish even if you ARE fully subscribed. 


raott said:


> Again, I'll ask, what logical connection is there between the HD Access pack and the OTA tuners.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

TBlazer, I think what you're referring too kinda stinks. I understand it technologically, but I think it's way different. Gripe about that in another thread and I'll join along.

The connection between the ATSC tuners and HD Access is clear if you think about it. The ATSC tuners are there to provide HD locals for those not served by the Sat and those who simply prefer them. Receiving HD programming through DirecTv devices requires the HD Access fee. Is that really so hard to understand or connect logically? I understand you might not like it, but that's how it is and it makes sense.

The fact that we all would prefer to use the Tuners in the HR20 over the one in our TV indicates that there is value being added by the HR20 to the mix. DirecTv as any business, expects to be compensated when they add value.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Xaa said:


> TBlazer, I think what you're referring too kinda stinks. I understand it technologically, but I think it's way different. Gripe about that in another thread and I'll join along.
> 
> The connection between the ATSC tuners and HD Access is clear if you think about it. The ATSC tuners are there to provide HD locals for those not served by the Sat and those who simply prefer them. Receiving HD programming through DirecTv devices requires the HD Access fee. Is that really so hard to understand or connect logically? I understand you might not like it, but that's how it is and it makes sense.
> 
> The fact that we all would prefer to use the Tuners in the HR20 over the one in our TV indicates that there is value being added by the HR20 to the mix. DirecTv as any business, expects to be compensated when they add value.


Nicely put, and one could hardly expect D* to provide competition to their sat stream programming and recover nothing. Considering OTA as part of HD Access is perfectly fair, to my way of thinking. It just makes no sense for D* to cut their own throat. No one is a bigger OTA advocate than I am, but really folks...think about it. OTA is *direct competition* to D*.Iit seems borderline generous that D* considers a portion of the HD Access Fee to cover OTA....it could be a *lot* worse....they could consider OTA its own separate "tier", and charge over and above HD Access for it. That would definitely raise my blood pressure.

Could you not see an *HD Extra OTA Pack* being required?....sound vaguely familiar? I say we should count our blessings, given D*'s track record.


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## ztrips (Nov 28, 2007)

Hmm... So if this is because of tuner royalties blah blah, what about the new AM21? If I am PAYING specifically for the OTA HD tuner that Directv didn't put in the HR21, will I be required to pay addional monthly fees to use it??


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

ztrips said:


> Hmm... So if this is because of tuner royalties blah blah, what about the new AM21? If I am PAYING specifically for the OTA HD tuner that Directv didn't put in the HR21, will I be required to pay addional monthly fees to use it??


If you read other elements in the thread (including my post just before yours), you will see that the HD Access Fee that you are already paying includes the cost of OTA to D*)...and I'm not talking "license", I'm talking design/engineering/manufacturing/lost revenue costs. If they offer the AM21 at $59.00 to the customer, I'm virtually certain that is below the actual manufacturing costs to D*.


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

ztrips said:


> Hmm... So if this is because of tuner royalties blah blah, what about the new AM21? If I am PAYING specifically for the OTA HD tuner that Directv didn't put in the HR21, will I be required to pay addional monthly fees to use it??


Exactly.


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

curt8403 said:


> the HD rcvr is for Directv HD and as an added bonus some get OTA as well, but not just OTA and no HD from Directv. that has always been D* policy


TiVos Don't need HD access to get OTA. I even think their tuner would work without D service, you just can't record to the DVR.....


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

hasan said:


> Nicely put, and one could hardly expect D* to provide competition to their sat stream programming and recover nothing. Considering OTA as part of HD Access is perfectly fair, to my way of thinking. It just makes no sense for D* to cut their own throat. No one is a bigger OTA advocate than I am, but really folks...think about it. OTA is *direct competition* to D*.Iit seems borderline generous that D* considers a portion of the HD Access Fee to cover OTA....it could be a *lot* worse....they could consider OTA its own separate "tier", and charge over and above HD Access for it. That would definitely raise my blood pressure.
> 
> Could you not see an *HD Extra OTA Pack* being required?....sound vaguely familiar? I say we should count our blessings, given D*'s track record.


I understand the argument you are making but would disagree that OTA is competition to D*because, at least in my area (where I cannot get HD locals via D* even though I'm in DMA #48), the fact that D*'s HD DVR has integrated OTA allows D* to compete for my business.

If D*did not offer an OTA solution within their DVR, they would not currently have my business - cable would. An integrated OTA solution allows D* to compete, it doesn't provide competition for D*'s other services.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

raott said:


> I understand the argument you are making but would disagree that OTA is competition to D*because, at least in my area (where I cannot get HD locals via D* even though I'm in DMA #48), the fact that D*'s HD DVR has integrated OTA allows D* to compete for my business.
> 
> If D*did not offer an OTA solution within their DVR, they would not currently have my business - cable would. An integrated OTA solution allows D* to compete, it doesn't provide competition for D*'s other services.


We get that part raott but that only speaks to why it's there. The other side of the coin is that if you were to evaluate cable as an option, that option comes at a price. Thus it makes perfect sense for the things that come from the HR20 to come at a price as well.

Anyone who thinks DirecTv or any company adds things out of the goodness of their heart is crazy. They are in business to sell value to customers and that's what DirecTv does.

It's clear that OTA is a competitor as the original poster of this thread would only pay for HD Access if he could not get the OTA without it. If he could use his DirecTv equipment to get HD OTA and not pay it, he intended to do that yet he is not interested in using OTA tuners that aren't part of the HR20.

You must see that by now don't you?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

raott said:


> I understand the argument you are making but would disagree that OTA is competition to D*because, at least in my area (where I cannot get HD locals via D* even though I'm in DMA #48), the fact that D*'s HD DVR has integrated OTA allows D* to compete for my business.
> 
> If D*did not offer an OTA solution within their DVR, they would not currently have my business - cable would. An integrated OTA solution allows D* to compete, it doesn't provide competition for D*'s other services.


Yes, that's true. In areas where HD-LILs are available, it is more a direct form of competition. Anything that takes the place of paid programming (no matter where it is coming from) is competition to D*. Who knows, people might discover that a lot of "peripheral" D* programming is not worth the money and end up watching OTA.


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## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

I have to say that I'm amazed at the number of people who are defending DirecTV on this. Even if they are within their rights according to the TOS, this is just not a good way to treat customers. 

Since the HR20 has OTA tuners, I as a customer would assume that I am free to use them, especially if I happened to pay $299 for the privilege of using the DVR. I understand that DirecTV isa for-profit business, but it costs them nothing - or next to nothing - to keep the OTA tuners enabled on a customer's DVR. 

I would understand if the customer canceled their service entirely. But I don't think a customer should be required to pay for satellite-based HD in order to be able to tune OTA HD on a box that supports it.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

I guess in their eyes it is costing them something if they're not collecting a 9.95 HD Access Fee.



cover said:


> but it costs them nothing - or next to nothing - to keep the OTA tuners enabled on a customer's DVR.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

cover said:


> I would understand if the customer canceled their service entirely. But I don't think a customer should be required to pay for *satellite-based HD *in order to be able to tune OTA HD on a box that supports it.


I agree with the beginning of your post that this probably isnt' the best way to handle things. The flip side of the coin though is that any time something that is presumed to be free becomes something that is charged for, people are going to be upset. Doesn't really matter how DirecTV handled this one, people were going to be upset.

I do take exception to one piece of the latter portion of your post though.... The people who are upset will ask the question "Where does it say that I have to pay for OTA". My question to you: Where does it say the HD Access fee is for *Satellite-Based* HD?

I don't think there's a distinction made ANYWHERE in any of the documentation between HD aquired via Satellite and that which is aquired via the OTA antennas. The fee is to receive HD programming. That's all it ever claimed to be.

So I don't have a problem with requiring the HD Access fee to be enabled to get OTA. It makes 100% perfect sense to me.

I've never had the HR20 without the HD Access fee, so I don't know when/if/for how long the connection between the fee and the OTA (a) existed and (b) was enforced.... so perhaps they could have handled the change in philosophy (or at the very least, enforcement), differently... But, to me, that has very little bearing on the argument.

To me... HD is HD, regardless of where it comes from.. and, secondly, in my mind, I think that disabling the OTA is a more efficient "punishment" for removing the HD Access than replacing the box would be... In essence, by removing the HD access fee, the customer is telling DirecTV they want an SD DVR. DirecTV obliged them.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

cover said:


> Since the HR20 has OTA tuners, I as a customer would assume that I am free to use them, especially if I happened to pay $299 for the privilege of using the DVR. I understand that DirecTV isa for-profit business, but it costs them nothing - or next to nothing - to keep the OTA tuners enabled on a customer's DVR.


In the case of the OP and those like him it would cost them an HD Access sub. All he needs is the OTA HD, but he wants it through DirecTv equipment. He's willing to pay to get it through DirecTv equipment over getting it for free by just plugging the antenna into his television. They would lose that sub as well as any payback on their subsidy of the box that cost more to produce than the $299 he was charged if he was charged a full lease price.

It definitely costs them, the OP states as much.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

cover said:


> I would understand if the customer canceled their service entirely. But I don't think a customer should be required to pay for satellite-based HD in order to be able to tune OTA HD on a box that supports it.


It's this simple (from one point of view):

It cost D* to put OTA in the box, or provide the external AM21
It costs D* money to get the guide data (part of which is OTA)
It costs D* money to support OTA (customer support, such as it is )
It potentially decreases the value of subscription programming (in competition with it)

The fact that there has been no *surcharge* for OTA in the HR series boxes, and the costs are folded into the HD Access Fee (which one needs for HD Sat programming anyway), is a blessing.

Their costs have to be recovered and a profit has to be made, plain and simple. Considering D* could charge separately for OTA-HD access/recording and not fold it into the HD Access Fee, we should count ourselves lucky. I am waiting for the non-OTA contingent to begin complaining that they are subsidizing my OTA use. (Which they may, in fact, be doing to some limited extent)

So, instead of decrying the HD Access Fee requirement (which one needs anyway), it would be a very good idea not to push this point so far as to motivate D* to go to yet another multi-tier approach, where you would have to pay a separate OTA surcharge.

In that case, not only will it not be FREE, not only will it not be folded in to an already existent expense, it will be a NEW COST.

I hope those who are so offended by this "non-cost" cost, don't ruin it for the rest of us who are overjoyed that integrated OTA is being offered for the HR21 series.

How soon we forget:

1. HR20-700 released with NO OTA at All.
2. OTA is enabled with terrible tuner performance.
3. Tuner performance improves, workarounds for difficult situations are developed.
4. HR21 is introduced with no OTA
5. HR20-xxx is announced as discontinued, and become very hard to find.
6. HR21 still has no OTA and the OTA is dismissed as "unneeded".
7. Firestorm of complaints from a significant minority.
8. AM21 is announced for the HR21 at a reasonable price.

Now we find that a policy that was always there, but perhaps not enforced requires HD Access in order for the OTA tuners to work. I'm sorry, but given the history, and the need for HD Access in order to effectively use the HR-2x series anyway, I'm underwhelmed by the face validity of the complaints of those who feel they are entitled to an OTA solution at no hardware cost, and then top it off by being dissatisfied with the OTA costs being folded into a fee they are already paying!

As Uncle Bill said recently, "Give me a break...."

Anyone who has seen me post about OTA from the time it was listed on the box, but not activated in the HR20-700, up to the present, knows I am no defender of D* on this entire OTA debacle. I am, however, reasonable in my expectations and once the AM21 was announced with tentative pricing and no new "programming" or "activation" costs, I was overjoyed.

To those who are so upset by what appears to me to be a reasonable and fair solution I say "Get Over It".....it could be a *lot worse*


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I agree with the beginning of your post that this probably isnt' the best way to handle things. The flip side of the coin though is that any time something that is presumed to be free becomes something that is charged for, people are going to be upset. Doesn't really matter how DirecTV handled this one, people were going to be upset.
> 
> I do take exception to one piece of the latter portion of your post though.... The people who are upset will ask the question "Where does it say that I have to pay for OTA". My question to you: Where does it say the HD Access fee is for *Satellite-Based* HD?
> 
> ...


If HD is HD then my service plan should cover an OTA antenna and adjustments as needed.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

How many people are we talking about here anyway? There cannot be that many that would go to all the trouble of getting the 5LNB dish and a H2x or HR2x that only want OTA HD. I imagine we could count them on our two hands. This discussion is not worth the time to read it, except it is kind of entertaining in a perverse sort of way. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

rjheard said:


> If HD is HD then my service plan should cover an OTA antenna and adjustments as needed.


What are you talking about?

Are you talking about the protection plan covering your outdoor antenna and it's adjustment? That would be silly, DirecTv will take responsibility of that at the tuner, not before as your antenna is not a DirecTv product.

Seriously, what are you thinking?


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Xaa said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Are you talking about the protection plan covering your outdoor antenna and it's adjustment? That would be silly, DirecTv will take responsibility of that at the tuner, not before as your antenna is not a DirecTv product.
> 
> ...


If OTA is only supported by subscribing to the HD package and HD is HD then my service agreement should cover this equipment and problems as well.

They may well be within their rights but it seems wrong to me. If I buy a phone that has bluetooth and Verizon or Sprint disables it so the only way I can get picture off is to use their data network that's wrong too. Same concept... The service provider is disabling a feature I have a reasonable expectation to use. If they could disable HD OTA but not SD that's a bit different. Does Dish do this?


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## Azalo (Oct 24, 2006)

MikeR7 said:


> How many people are we talking about here anyway? There cannot be that many that would go to all the trouble of getting the 5LNB dish and a H2x or HR2x that only want OTA HD. I imagine we could count them on our two hands. This discussion is not worth the time to read it, except it is kind of entertaining in a perverse sort of way. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I bet there are a lot more people like me than you think, they sign up for DTV because they want all this great HD only to realize after a few months that what they mostly watch in HD is OTA, like major sporting events, Lost, Heroes, CSI and although they may occasionally watch History HD or whatever its not worth the extra $20-40+ depending on your package. Personally I went from the HD DVR Plus package at $70 a month to the family package and HBO for ~$45 and when the Wire finishes I will drop HBO.

I agree watching this thread is funny, I never expected such a firestorm of responses and I do see the logic to both sides but still lean toward the DTV shouldn't be charging for this or at least make it very clear that they are. When I first signed up for DTV I lived in Hampton, VA, late 2006. DTV was already running ads for hundreds of HD coming soon and HD locals coming to Norfolk/Hampton in the next quarter. It took almost a year to finally get the national HD channels they promised and Norfolk got taken off the local HD coming soon list and Colorado Springs where I moved to has never been on the list, so needless to say I don't think DTV has really held up their end in my case so I don't feel the need to defend them as much as some of you seem to.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

Azalo said:


> I bet there are a lot more people like me than you think, they sign up for DTV because they want all this great HD only to realize after a few months that what they mostly watch in HD is OTA, like major sporting events, Lost, Heroes, CSI and although they may occasionally watch History HD or whatever its not worth the extra $20-40+ depending on your package. Personally I went from the HD DVR Plus package at $70 a month to the family package and HBO for ~$45 and when the Wire finishes I will drop HBO.
> 
> I agree watching this thread is funny, I never expected such a firestorm of responses and I do see the logic to both sides but still lean toward the DTV shouldn't be charging for this or at least make it very clear that they are. When I first signed up for DTV I lived in Hampton, VA, late 2006. DTV was already running ads for hundreds of HD coming soon and HD locals coming to Norfolk/Hampton in the next quarter. It took almost a year to finally get the national HD channels they promised and Norfolk got taken off the local HD coming soon list and Colorado Springs where I moved to has never been on the list, so needless to say I don't think DTV has really held up their end in my case so I don't feel the need to defend them as much as some of you seem to.


Someone should start a poll!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

I think Azalo and all others in his position should be granted amnesty.

This whole deal has been poorly managed by DirecTV. First, they bury the fact that you have to have HD Access authorized to get OTA HD. They don't tell anyone. To compound that, DirecTV leaves the unauthorized tuners active. It's almost like DirecTV doesn't know their own rules. They certainly haven't been following them for months on end.

Now DirecTV is enforcing the rules. Fine. I have no problem with that, especially if starting today they make it clear to everyone that you need HD Access to use the ATSC tuner.

But I propose if someone like Azalo calls into DirecTV over the next 30 days, they can get their receiver's OTA turned on for HD permanently. DirecTV just flicked off the switch. There must be a way to turn it back on. This would both be for knowledgeable folks like Azalo, looking for the deal, and the guy who just calls up a CSR, saying, _What happened to my HDTV on my local stations? It was working fine last week._

Why? Because the right hand has proven that it doesn't know its left from a hole in the ground. It's a way of saying _we screwed up _without saying _we screwed up._

This is going to affect so few people that it doesn't even count. It would only be available to people who had no HD Access on an otherwise active HD capable receiver as of a specific date. That's not a lot of folks. I bet they wouldn't fill up a college gymnasium. And they'd have to call in now. No complaining about this in April.

Plus the deal will go away over the course of the next few years. If one of these folks changes their receiver for any reason, the deal is gone. It's not transferable. This is not a game. It's a make good.

For DirecTV to do this would be cheap, easy and appropriate. It would be the right thing to do.


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## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

rjheard said:


> If HD is HD then my service plan should cover an OTA antenna and adjustments as needed.


Nice point.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

cover said:


> Nice point.


Do you really think it's a good point that the Protection Plan should cover the OTA antenna? If that then why not the TV too? Neither of those are DirecTv equipment, one is upstream the other downstream.

That idea is ridiculous.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

rjheard said:


> If OTA is only supported by subscribing to the HD package and HD is HD then my service agreement should cover this equipment and problems as well.


You seem to be trying to make two different points with this first one being more ridiculous, so I'll separate them.

Using your logic then your protection plan should cover the Television as well as the OTA antenna. Insane. It covers the DirecTv equipment, so it will cover the tuner but not the antenna or the TV. You can't honestly believe a DirecTv protection plan should cover your OTA antenna simply because you need a subscription to use the downstream tuner do you? That's silly.



> They may well be within their rights but it seems wrong to me. If I buy a phone that has bluetooth and Verizon or Sprint disables it so the only way I can get picture off is to use their data network that's wrong too. Same concept... The service provider is disabling a feature I have a reasonable expectation to use. If they could disable HD OTA but not SD that's a bit different. Does Dish do this?


This makes a bit more sense with the exception that the HD Access is required to actually keep and lease the product. They are within the agreement that the customer willingly made to repossess the entire HR20. It is not intended as an SD only device and everyone that has one has agreed to that.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

rjheard said:


> If OTA is only supported by subscribing to the HD package and HD is HD then my service agreement should cover this equipment and problems as well.
> 
> They may well be within their rights but it seems wrong to me. If I buy a phone that has bluetooth and Verizon or Sprint disables it so the only way I can get picture off is to use their data network that's wrong too. Same concept... The service provider is disabling a feature I have a reasonable expectation to use. If they could disable HD OTA but not SD that's a bit different. Does Dish do this?


Your service agreement covers the equipment which DirecTV provided to you. Anything you choose to add to the system beyond that is your own responsibility. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that because the eSATA ONLY works if the box is activated, then, when the box is, in fact, activated, DirecTV should cover any problems with that as well, including equipment failure?

The HD *ACCESS* fee covers the *access* to HD signals. OTA is one of those. OTA signals, in DirecTV's mind, fall under the access to HD.

And frankly, I don't see the problem with a cell phone company creating the same type of "closed" system. I don't understand the thinking that because a feature exists on the system I should be allowed to use it, and use it for free. Especially in the two examples you brought up - the OTA and the cell phone data crippling. Both instances, the feature allows you to bypass the provider for some service.


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Your service agreement covers the equipment which DirecTV provided to you. Anything you choose to add to the system beyond that is your own responsibility. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that because the eSATA ONLY works if the box is activated, then, when the box is, in fact, activated, DirecTV should cover any problems with that as well, including equipment failure?
> 
> The HD *ACCESS* fee covers the *access* to HD signals. OTA is one of those. OTA signals, in DirecTV's mind, fall under the access to HD.
> 
> And frankly, I don't see the problem with a cell phone company creating the same type of "closed" system. I don't understand the thinking that because a feature exists on the system I should be allowed to use it, and use it for free. Especially in the two examples you brought up - the OTA and the cell phone data crippling. Both instances, the feature allows you to bypass the provider for some service.


It's not really free. He's still a subscriber to D*. If D* offers locals in his area then the OTA is competition.

I currently pay for HD-DVR service and my service agreement covers my complete system so if OTA is included it should be covered as well.

If D* were to replace his box with a SD with OTA then all's fair. Short of that if I don't think OTA should be disabled because you don't subscribe to HD. IMHO.

I bet we could have some lively debate about DVD and CD ripping fair use.

I work for a wireless company and think disabling feature made available by a handset manufacturer is wrong. Making customers transfer pictures on our data network when the manufacturer has a built in Bluetooth transfer feature sucks and is sticking it to the customer IMHO.


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Xaa said:


> You seem to be trying to make two different points with this first one being more ridiculous, so I'll separate them.
> 
> Using your logic then your protection plan should cover the Television as well as the OTA antenna. Insane. It covers the DirecTv equipment, so it will cover the tuner but not the antenna or the TV. You can't honestly believe a DirecTv protection plan should cover your OTA antenna simply because you need a subscription to use the downstream tuner do you? That's silly.
> 
> This makes a bit more sense with the exception that the HD Access is required to actually keep and lease the product. They are within the agreement that the customer willingly made to repossess the entire HR20. It is not intended as an SD only device and everyone that has one has agreed to that.


It's an analogy... Here I'll define it for you.

Main Entry:
anal·o·gy Listen to the pronunciation of analogy
Pronunciation:
\ə-ˈna-lə-jē\ 
Function:
noun 
Inflected Form(s):
plural anal·o·gies
Date:
15th century

1: inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others2 a: resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : similarity b: comparison based on such resemblance3: correspondence between the members of pairs or sets of linguistic forms that serves as a basis for the creation of another form4: correspondence in function between anatomical parts of different structure and origin - compare


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

I didn't think your point could stand. Especially the first one. The second at least had some merit but you choose this path instead. Nice job.


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## toneman (Oct 23, 2007)

Xaa said:


> Do you really think it's a good point that the Protection Plan should cover the OTA antenna? If that then why not the TV too? Neither of those are DirecTv equipment, one is upstream the other downstream.
> 
> That idea is ridiculous.


Well I don't think anyone is suggesting that D*'s PP should cover TVs as well, so no need to offer such a farfetched example. 

You have to pay a monthly fee in order for your sat receiver to receive D*'s satellite programming, and a sat dish is required for your receiver to receive the sat signals...so it makes sense that their PP covers the sat dish. Can't this same argument apply to HD OTA and OTA antennas since after all, if you want your HD receiver to be capable of receiving HD OTA, you have to pay D* the HD Access fee? And since it's kinda hard to receive OTA w/o an OTA antenna, why shouldn't a PP cover it as well? You may answer that by saying that D* doesn't provide OTA antennas--true, but they should since HD OTA tuner enablement comes as part of the HD Access package whether you want it or not.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

toneman said:


> Well I don't think anyone is suggesting that D*'s PP should cover TVs as well, so no need to offer such a farfetched example.
> 
> You have to pay a monthly fee in order for your sat receiver to receive D*'s satellite programming, and a sat dish is required for your receiver to receive the sat signals...so it makes sense that their PP covers the sat dish. Can't this same argument apply to HD OTA and OTA antennas since after all, if you want your HD receiver to be capable of receiving HD OTA, you have to pay D* the HD Access fee? And since it's kinda hard to receive OTA w/o an OTA antenna, why shouldn't a PP cover it as well? You may answer that by saying that D* doesn't provide OTA antennas--true, but they should since HD OTA tuner enablement comes as part of the HD Access package whether you want it or not.


I think it's silly. They aren't in the antenna business. If you can get a signal to the tuner and have the appropriate subscription, it will decode it. The antenna is up to you.

Can't you separate hardware from service? If you expect them to cover a third party reception device why would you say it's far fetched to cover a third party device required to view any of it, the TV? I think only because the downstream argument reveals how ridiculous the upstream argument is.

Really the protection plan covering a radio shack antenna? That's pretty far out on the limb.


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## toneman (Oct 23, 2007)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> The HD *ACCESS* fee covers the *access* to HD signals. OTA is one of those. OTA signals, in DirecTV's mind, fall under the access to HD.


Actually, that's technically incorrect since D* isn't actually providing the OTA signals--they are enabling a means (the OTA tuner) for you to receive it on your D*-provided receiver, with the OTA antenna being the other part of the equation.

IOW--how can D* insinuate/claim that their fee includes access to HD OTA signals when they aren't actually even providing/transmitting the OTA signals themselves?


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

toneman said:


> IOW--how can D* insinuate/claim that their fee includes access to HD OTA signals when they aren't actually even providing/transmitting the OTA signals themselves?


Simple. Once it comes to their box they either allow it to be decoded and come out the other end or they don't. If you want that access which is access to decoding of ATSC transmissions you can get it by subscribing to the HD Access.

It's not the OTA signal to which they are providing access. It's the decoding and transmission through their supported hardware (along with guide data etc.)

Everyone has access to the signal and there are many ways to get the decoding. The pay for hardware and have it model (antenna and TV tuner) was declined as inferior by the OP in favor of the benefit of having it through DirecTv equipment. For that added value there's a subscription. That's their business.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

You can get OTA and OTA HD without the HD Access Pass...


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Xaa said:


> I didn't think your point could stand. Especially the first one. The second at least had some merit but you choose this path instead. Nice job.


Thanks.:hurah:


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## jzboggs (Jan 19, 2008)

ok, so if I have to have HD Access to receive OTA channels then why does the screen on my tv say that once my DIRECTV service is activated your receiver will integrate off-air channels (at no additional cost) with your satellite service.


"No additional Cost" That means no HD Access. 

I don't watch any hd other than sports that I receive locally. I have no use for hd except for that purpose. Why should I have to pay $10 a month to watch football on the weekends for a few months out of the year?


I called CS after I got the message "Call Customer Service (750)" What a waste of time. They effectively told me it isn't their problem.


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

jzboggs said:


> ok, so if I have to have HD Access to receive OTA channels then why does the screen on my tv say that once my DIRECTV service is activated your receiver will integrate off-air channels (at no additional cost) with your satellite service.
> 
> "No additional Cost" That means no HD Access.
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on what your definition of "no" is. It appears their definition and yours differs.


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## jzboggs (Jan 19, 2008)

I guess that I need to send DTV a dictionary.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

jzboggs said:


> ok, so if I have to have HD Access to receive OTA channels then why does the screen on my tv say that once my DIRECTV service is activated your receiver will integrate off-air channels (at no additional cost) with your satellite service.
> 
> "No additional Cost" That means no HD Access.
> 
> ...


As has been pointed out SEVERAL times. You agreed to have HD Access just to GET the HR20, so, realistically, all the talk about the OTA tuners working or not working is just academic.

So, since you have to have HD Acess to have the HR20. Technically, there is "no additional cost" to have the OTA tuners integrated, either.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

jzboggs said:


> I don't watch any hd other than sports that I receive locally. I have no use for hd except for that purpose. Why should I have to pay $10 a month to watch football on the weekends for a few months out of the year?


Sounds like you just need an OTA antenna and tuner and you're all set. Why should DirecTv subsidize it?

Like Sharkie said, you agree to have HD Access just to have the HR20 so there is not an additional cost.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

This has been an interesting conversation, and some truly interesting (and maybe even absurd) points of view have been expressed. It all boils down to issues of OTA HD on an H2X or HR2x rcvr. To be able to see OTA HD get a cheap tuner to connect to your HDTV. TO record (because recording is a function of the HD DVR) pay the fees necessary. D* controls that, and bellyaching will not change the D* policy.

As the Fairy Nuff said. Fair Enough and also Nuff Said


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## Elephanthead (Feb 3, 2007)

this decision makes absolutly no sense what so ever. It costs DTV nothing to leave the OTA tuners active, the only thing this does is piss off a bunch of people that already paid to upgrade to a HD receiver. They are still subscribing to SD. I guess the brain trust at DTV is on a mission to get everyone to switch off or switch to someone else.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Elephanthead said:


> this decision makes absolutly no sense what so ever. It costs DTV nothing to leave the OTA tuners active, the only thing this does is piss off a bunch of people that already paid to upgrade to a HD receiver. They are still subscribing to SD. I guess the brain trust at DTV is on a mission to get everyone to switch off or switch to someone else.


except for this.
OTA channels show in the directv guide, most of the time it will show you no only the channel, but what shows are on and when. that for certain is a function of Directv service and is not free. some thing with being able to record. 
Bellyaching does not help
Nuff Said


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Elephanthead said:


> this decision makes absolutly no sense what so ever. It costs DTV nothing to leave the OTA tuners active, the only thing this does is piss off a bunch of people that already paid to upgrade to a HD receiver. They are still subscribing to SD. I guess the brain trust at DTV is on a mission to get everyone to switch off or switch to someone else.


Did you read the thread? The OP states clearly that if he can use his DirecTv subsidized equipment to decode HD OTA signals that he would replace his HD Access with that alone. It costs them a valid subscription. DirecTv will lose subscribers to competition, they understand that, but it would be idiocy to facilitate it and subsidize it with their equipment and development costs.


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Elephanthead said:


> this decision makes absolutly no sense what so ever. It costs DTV nothing to leave the OTA tuners active, the only thing this does is piss off a bunch of people that already paid to upgrade to a HD receiver. They are still subscribing to SD. I guess the brain trust at DTV is on a mission to get everyone to switch off or switch to someone else.


I agree. D* may be well within their rights do this but the customer who will subscribe to HD just to get HD OTA is an insignifigant minority. I can't see a justification from a revenue stream point of view. I'm pretty sure he won't get satisfaction on this from D* nor will he suggest them to anyone. Sometimes you just have to do what's necessary to make the customer happy.

Is there a SD DVR with OTA available?


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

rjheard said:


> I agree. D* may be well within their rights do this but the customer who will subscribe to HD just to get HD OTA is an insignifigant minority. I can't see a justification from a revenue stream point of view. I'm pretty sure he won't get satisfaction on this from D* nor will he suggest them to anyone. Sometimes you just have to do what's necessary to make the customer happy.
> 
> Is there a SD DVR with OTA available?


No, there is not. At least from DirecTV. And, personally, I think that's at least partly where this decision comes from.

OTA is a feature specific to the HR2x (I know the AM21 isn't out yet, but soon). In order to keep an HR2x active, one is required (and agreed to) keep the HD Access on their account.

No HD Access = SD. Since no SD DVR from DirecTV has OTA, you get no OTA.

A simpler solution than switching the box out for an SD version... At least IMHO.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

All this fuss over two pounds of earthling brain (Or in this case a 9.99 per month HD access charge) 
For those who object, why don't you call D* and offer to roll double or nothing for HD access.
Doh!

El Diablo De Los Rio Muerto


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

rjheard said:


> I agree. D* may be well within their rights do this but the customer who will subscribe to HD just to get HD OTA is an insignifigant minority. I can't see a justification from a revenue stream point of view. I'm pretty sure he won't get satisfaction on this from D* nor will he suggest them to anyone. Sometimes you just have to do what's necessary to make the customer happy.
> 
> Is there a SD DVR with OTA available?


Have you even bothered to read the thread? The OP has come back and he does have satisfaction and the HD Access subscription back. Feel how you do about the policy, but DirecTv did exactly what you're "pretty sure" they wouldn't do.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Close the post, It has gotten absurd. All those in favor say Aye


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Aye!

Next thing you know, people will be complaining that their DVR won't record after they stop their DVR service. 

Time for a:


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Xaa said:


> Have you even bothered to read the thread? The OP has come back and he does have satisfaction and the HD Access subscription back. Feel how you do about the policy, but DirecTv did exactly what you're "pretty sure" they wouldn't do.


I admit I must have missed that post. Good for him. You have yourself an excellent day now. I'm pretty sure you will.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

I always do rjheard. 

Big of you to post the admission.


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## satexplorer (Feb 6, 2007)

So mindboggling! I didn't know DirecTV is conservative about OTA.


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## rjheard (Dec 12, 2007)

Xaa said:


> I always do rjheard.
> 
> Big of you to post the admission.


I strive to be humble like you. I'm not there yet but I'm working on it.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Keep trying pal but don't set the bar too high for yourself. It's possible that I'm out of your league.


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## Pink Fairy (Dec 28, 2006)

Back to topic please gentleman...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

As okietekkie, so kindly pointed out .. Let's get this thread :backtotop


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Maybe time for this guy again?


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

is that bear something you can buy?


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

newsposter said:


> is that bear something you can buy?


Yes

http://www.adaptivechild.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1102


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## jzboggs (Jan 19, 2008)

[


Sharkie_Fan said:


> As has been pointed out SEVERAL times. You agreed to have HD Access just to GET the HR20, so, realistically, all the talk about the OTA tuners working or not working is just academic.
> 
> So, since you have to have HD Acess to have the HR20. Technically, there is "no additional cost" to have the OTA tuners integrated, either.





Xaa said:


> Sounds like you just need an OTA antenna and tuner and you're all set. Why should DirecTv subsidize it?
> 
> Like Sharkie said, you agree to have HD Access just to have the HR20 so there is not an additional cost.


Actually I didn't lease my receiver and in fact never agreed to pay for HD Access to buy my HR20

I never asked DTV to subsidize my OTA tuner. I already have one that has worked very well for 2 years with my old HD receiver and for 6 months with the HR20. Everything was fine until the software upgrade this week


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

jzboggs said:


> [
> 
> Actually I didn't lease my receiver and in fact never agreed to pay for HD Access to buy my HR20
> 
> I never asked DTV to subsidize my OTA tuner. I already have one that has worked very well for 2 years with my old HD receiver and for 6 months with the HR20. Everything was fine until the software upgrade this week


Actually, like it or not, you DID in fact agree to pay for HD Access. By activating the receiver, you agree to the Terms of Service laid out by DirecTV. They've been quoted several times - to have an HR2x activate, you have to have HD Access.

And again, like it or not, unless you paid $800 for the HR20, DirecTV did subsidize your receiver. They sold or leased it to you at less than retail. They do this, without you asking, because they know those costs will be recouped over the 24 months which you have the box activated.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1397094&postcount=106
There's the portion of the agreement you made with DirecTV when activating your programming. HD DVR's require HD Access AND DVR to be active on your account.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

jzboggs said:


> [
> 
> I already have one that has worked very well for 2 years with my old HD receiver


Then you're all set, just use that one or pay the subscription if you prefer the one in the HR20.


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## rbean (Jan 12, 2007)

rjheard said:


> I strive to be humble like you. I'm not there yet but I'm working on it.


well said but you forgot, condescending. Oh well we all have to have goals to try and achieve.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

rbean said:


> well said but you forgot, condescending. Oh well we all have to have goals to try and achieve.


Ironic thought from a guy with a sig that says this:

_There are two sides to every issue, my side and the wrong side. _

If there's something on topic you'd like to discuss, let's please do it, if you want to argue and fight, send me a PM. I've got all day!


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

I recently ordered DirecTV with the Plus HD DVR service. A reasonable expectation was that I would be able to watch and DVR OTA HD signals. My friends are able to do this and talked me in to subscribing. Can I do this? No because I got the more current HR21. I should be entitled to a partial refund of my monthly HD charge if DirecTV if they are charging HR20 users for this service.


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## randyk47 (Aug 21, 2006)

Hmmm.....I don't see that DirecTV is charging me extra because my receivers have HD OTA capability. Yes, they charge me for HD but that's across the board for their service and the HD OTA just gets sucked along with that, not at an extra charge. If I didn't have an external antenna, and therefore no OTA, it would still cost me the same.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

gitarzan said:


> I recently ordered DirecTV with the Plus HD DVR service. A reasonable expectation was that I would be able to watch and DVR OTA HD signals. My friends are able to do this and talked me in to subscribing. Can I do this? No because I got the more current HR21. I should be entitled to a partial refund of my monthly HD charge if DirecTV if they are charging HR20 users for this service.


The HD OTA is included free with the HD Access, so you are entitled to a full refund of the free portion.


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## REDSKINSFAN47 (Sep 2, 2007)

you could watch hd locals ota in 4/07 with no hd access,because i did for 3 mo. until my upgrade,just baught the box for $99 and activated it ,got ota hd and subchannels.i did not get the 9.99 hd access charge until they came here and changed my dish.now if you turn off the D* box then i would expect ota would then have to hook up to the tv. if the box is actived an h20 has ota connections than why would it not,pick hd ota,hd access or not.


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## tarkin (Jun 12, 2007)

bayareamtnbiker said:


> DTV decided to force anyone not paying for HD DVR to pay for it. They did so by taking a function off of your HR20 that you've had for over a year, in the middle of the night w/ a software change. The fact that it was a function they ADVERTISED when they leased it to you you means nothing to them. I won't forget about this anytime soon.


agreed!!


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## tarkin (Jun 12, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ahh (for the one time fee).
> 
> I don't think it was "just shutoff"... it has been this way for a while.
> 
> But really... what percentage of users here... have HD equipment, and not the HD Access option?


It did just shut off in the middle of the night for me.

I would guess everyone that can't get Local HD from D* on their HR20 are using OTA HD access until their market is added.

And of those people, 90% of what they watch is ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX.


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## tarkin (Jun 12, 2007)

Xaa said:


> Well, in this case it's the customer that's assuming the OTA HD is not wrapped up in the HD service being sold at the same time. The CSR can be more clear, but it's never said otherwise. The customer is making their own assumption about what the equipment will do without a sub.
> 
> The fact that some would and do find the OTA portion worth the most is the very reason DirecTv doesn't continue to support it through their service without a subscription. At that point it's competing with what they are selling. They include it if you buy what they are selling which is HD Access both over the sat and OTA.
> 
> ...


HBO is a paid premium channel
OTA HD Local does not cost D* money. It cost the local TV station to broadcast it.
Does LG charge a fee to use its OTA HD tuner in their TV!


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

tarkin said:


> HBO is a paid premium channel
> OTA HD Local does not cost D* money. It cost the local TV station to broadcast it.
> Does LG charge a fee to use its OTA HD tuner in their TV!


LG isn't in the business of selling Television service. If you want to use an HR20 at all, it requires and HD Access fee. If you're being allowed to use it without that requirement consider yourself lucky, you're supposed to give it back if you don't subscribe and you agreed to do so. If you want HD Access, including those coming OTA to come through DirecTv equipment, then you need to pay the HD Access fee.

If DirecTv HD Access doesn't provide any value to you, plug your antenna directly into your TV and you're all set. If you prefer it through your DirecTv equipment, then you must be getting value there, so pay for it.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Exactly !



Xaa said:


> LG isn't in the business of selling Television service. If you want to use an HR20 at all, it requires and HD Access fee. If you're being allowed to use it without that requirement consider yourself lucky, you're supposed to give it back if you don't subscribe and you agreed to do so. If you want HD Access, including those coming OTA to come through DirecTv equipment, then you need to pay the HD Access fee.
> 
> If DirecTv HD Access doesn't provide any value to you, plug your antenna directly into your TV and you're all set. If you prefer it through your DirecTv equipment, then you must be getting value there, so pay for it.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tarkin said:


> It did just shut off in the middle of the night for me.
> 
> I would guess everyone that can't get Local HD from D* on their HR20 are using OTA HD access until their market is added.
> 
> And of those people, 90% of what they watch is ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX.


If you think everyone who can't get HD locals from DirecTV has OTA, you'd be WAY off.

Earl has said on multiple occasions that DirecTV has data as to how many people use OTA. The number is small enough that DirecTV thought it was a good idea to leave the OTA tuner out of the HR21 completely, instead offering an add on product for the select few who choose to add OTA.


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## Gus (Dec 19, 2007)

Well...I would say that there will be quite a few people who will want to keep their OTA HD viewing even when local channel HD is furnished by D* for the simple reason that if you are close enough to get a strong signal OTA, it will be superior in quality to local HD channels coming from D* or Dish. 

Is this not already so with standard definition? Local channel HD from D* or Dish WILL NOT be brought to us using their highest bandwidth channels, right? They are saved for their national channels and there is not enough to go around for all the local channels across America. 

I have standard definition waivers at the moment and the difference in picture quality between the east and west coast feeds and the local channels from D* is significant enough that I never use my HR20 or 21 and record the local channel programming when the same programing is available from my east or west coast feeds. This is even moreso true with Fox and couple of the other local UHF channels...poor picture coming from satellite. Local channel Fox from D* is terrible. Course the culprit is not only the lower bandwidth channels D* assigns to them, it is also the poor quality feed that is coming to D* from the local Fox network. The east and west coast Fox feeds are always super.

So if you get good OTA signal, you will probably always prefer it to what will come from satellite.


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

note OTA is rock steady in 99.9% of storms where directv only is about 98.9 percent  

you get the picture...sat. may be out but OTA will 'always' come in just fine so you wont lose those programs


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## illwafer (Dec 4, 2007)

I just wanted to chime in on this travesty.

So, I figured it's summertime...why not cancel DirecTV until September, save a few bucks, and enjoy the outdoors. I still enjoy watching some tv, maybe falling asleep to the news as well. I can still watch local news with OTA right?

Well I found out the hard way like all of you that OTA does not work on the HR20. It works fine on my Tivo HR10-250...even in HD.

Where my situation differs is that I actually own the HR20. It was a protection plan replacement for another HR10-250. 

I was also under the assumption I could watch previously recorded programs off the DVR. Nope. They disabled those too.

I was paying directv for their channels and a dvr fee to record programs. since i own the receiver, they should not limit my ability to use my own antenna to watch free television as well as watch the shows i already paid to record.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

illwafer said:


> I just wanted to chime in on this travesty.
> 
> So, I figured it's summertime...why not cancel DirecTV until September, save a few bucks, and enjoy the outdoors. I still enjoy watching some tv, maybe falling asleep to the news as well. I can still watch local news with OTA right?
> 
> ...


durrr the main purpose of the directv rcvr is to receive Directv signals. OTA is simply an added bonus. the OTA listing comes from Directv, so if you have no Directv it is only natural that you would have no OTA channels in the guide.


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## illwafer (Dec 4, 2007)

curt8403 said:


> durrr the main purpose of the directv rcvr is to receive Directv signals. OTA is simply an added bonus. the OTA listing comes from Directv, so if you have no Directv it is only natural that you would have no OTA channels in the guide.


well the dude in retentions im speaking with atm says he doesn't understand why it isnt working at that they didnt do anything to it. he is saying that it SHOULD work. im not saying hes right, but at least he can understand my perspective.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

illwafer said:


> well the dude in retentions im speaking with atm says he doesn't understand why it isnt working at that they didnt do anything to it. he is saying that it SHOULD work. im not saying hes right, but at least he can understand my perspective.


I understand the frustration as well, but the dude in retention simply is not as technically proficient as some of us are. You are getting the message 750, right? it means that it cannot find an active guide listing for the channel, due to the directv service being off. 
sorry.


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## illwafer (Dec 4, 2007)

would it make sense to have the service turned back on, then disconnect the satellite cable? wouldn't it just be "searching for satellite"?

i can live without the guide data.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

illwafer said:


> would it make sense to have the service turned back on, then disconnect the satellite cable? wouldn't it just be "searching for satellite"?
> 
> i can live without the guide data.


suggest you connect directly to the TV then, and use Zap-2it for the info of what is on the OTA channels

sfss will prevent the guide from updating and soon it would either be a 750 again or a 722 (Authorization has expired)


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## illwafer (Dec 4, 2007)

curt8403 said:


> suggest you connect directly to the TV then, and use Zap-2it for the info of what is on the OTA channels
> 
> sfss will prevent the guide from updating and soon it would either be a 750 again or a 722 (Authorization has expired)


ouch. well thanks for your help. i lost my conversation with directv.

my problem is that i use a projector (no tuner) and don't have another HD OTA tuner available.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Here you go.

http://reviews.cnet.com/tv-hdtv-tun...-h260f-hdtv/4505-6487_7-32385887.html?tag=img


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

illwafer said:


> ouch. well thanks for your help. i lost my conversation with directv.
> 
> my problem is that i use a projector (no tuner) and don't have another HD OTA tuner available.


you can purchase a stand alone ATSC tuner for the projector


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

illwafer said:


> ouch. well thanks for your help. i lost my conversation with directv.
> 
> my problem is that i use a projector (no tuner) and don't have another HD OTA tuner available.


Or downgrade your service to the absolute minimum package and then add HD, and your set... probably be 40 a month...


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> Or downgrade your service to the absolute minimum package and then add HD, and your set... probably be 40 a month...


family 29.99
HD access 9.99
totall 39.98

that is for one rcvr only


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

illwafer said:


> I just wanted to chime in on this travesty.
> 
> So, I figured it's summertime...why not cancel DirecTV until September, save a few bucks, and enjoy the outdoors. I still enjoy watching some tv, maybe falling asleep to the news as well. I can still watch local news with OTA right?
> 
> ...


Summer=Baseball season. Summer is the best time for TV. It is winter where we should get out and enjoy nature. I snow ski at least twice a week during the winter time.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

DodgerKing said:


> Summer=Baseball season. Summer is the best time for TV. It is winter where we should get out and enjoy nature. I snow ski at least twice a week during the winter time.


two things come to mind. 
Melmac and Bouillibaseball season 
or
here on earth Steroidball season

(Joking)


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## igator99 (Jul 28, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> If you think everyone who can't get HD locals from DirecTV has OTA, you'd be WAY off.
> 
> Earl has said on multiple occasions that DirecTV has data as to how many people use OTA. The number is small enough that DirecTV thought it was a good idea to leave the OTA tuner out of the HR21 completely, instead offering an add on product for the select few who choose to add OTA.


D* Has got way to greedy for me. As soon as the contract is up I'm gone.


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## Cactus_Hawk (Jun 18, 2008)

After having read this entire thread I see a little problem with the logic that D* should be able to discontinue a subscribers ability to view HD OTA with out clear communication that they are doing so.

My situation…

Back in 2004 or so I “upgraded” from a SD receiver to D*’s H10-250. At that time I did not add the HD package because I only wanted local channels in HD. There was no charge for HD OTA. I was not required to sign up for an HD package to get HD. This was a free of charge service and was verbally advertised to me that way. I only needed to pay for HD if I wanted the Sat channels which later I decided to add to get Discovery HD (now HD Theatre).


Recently I have received a few calls from D* telling me to upgrade to the new MPEG-4 receiver (for free) so that I will be able to get all of the available HD channels. If I do so (only after reading this thread) I am under the impression that D* “may” try and take back the receiver if I cancel my HD package. If they don’t try and take it back if I cancel my HD package they “may” flip a switch, or what ever they do, and eliminate my ability to watch HD OTA. 

HD OTA was supposed to be a free of charge service. If that has changed I am ok with that…BUT it needs to be communicated clearly. If I had not read this thread I would have assumed that HD OTA was, is, and will be free in the future…

I can agree however with those who are defending D* for those who have leased the newer HD receivers. It seems to clearly indicate that they can take back the receiver if you cancel your HD package. Therefore no one (who recently leased a newer HD receiver) should expect free OTA HD if you cancel your package.


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

Cactus_Hawk said:


> After having read this entire thread I see a little problem with the logic that D* should be able to discontinue a subscribers ability to view HD OTA with out clear communication that they are doing so.
> 
> My situation&#8230;
> 
> ...


In your case you cannot have the HR2X reviever without subscribing to the HD access package. That is clearly spelled out. In the case of the OP it appears there was a period of time where people were allowed to have the revievers and not have the HD Access. For the recent past it is clearly spelled out that a subscription to HD access is required in order to have the box active.


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## rynning (Jan 29, 2007)

> HD OTA was supposed to be a free of charge service.


Yes, free if you buy DirecTV service. Kind of like the new "free" Roku streaming service from NetFlix.

If I cancelled service, I wouldn't expect to get OTA listings from DirecTV or be able to use the leased receiver in any way. I'd just plug the antenna into my TV's tuner (already split for both actually) or buy a cheap digital tuner with a $40 government coupon.


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## apexmi (Jul 8, 2006)

rynning said:


> Yes, free if you buy DirecTV service. Kind of like the new "free" Roku streaming service from NetFlix.
> 
> If I cancelled service, I wouldn't expect to get OTA listings from DirecTV or be able to use the leased receiver in any way. I'd just plug the antenna into my TV's tuner (already split for both actually) or buy a cheap digital tuner with a $40 government coupon.


Except the $40 tuners that the coupons can be used for are only digital, not"HD" that is a specific requirement of the gov't program coupons.


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## w6fxj (Aug 10, 2005)

Cactus-Hawk - If you still have the HR10-250 it will still receive OTA HDTV. Only the new DirecTV receivers are restricted to subscribers who pay for HD Access.


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

rynning said:


> If I cancelled service, I wouldn't expect to get OTA listings from DirecTV or be able to use the leased receiver in any way. I'd just plug the antenna into my TV's tuner (already split for both actually) or buy a cheap digital tuner with a $40 government coupon.


Not if you wanted HD and not if you wanted a DVR.

The only real options today for OTA HD DVR (as long as the TR-50 remains in the ether) are TiVo (still requires a subscription of maybe $10 a month) or a PC with tuner card(s) installed.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

raott said:


> When did ATSC access get tied to the $9.99 HD access?


Perhaps a better question: when did HD Access become optional?


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