# Analyst on ZDNet.com really upset with blank recordings on his hr-20 & 21



## monetnj (Sep 28, 2004)

Don't know how many of you read ZDNet, but this was posted on their site today:

"DIRECTV, what about "Make the products work" and "Keep the customers happy" do you not understand?"

http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=9171


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## alv (Aug 13, 2002)

He is not the only one. Fortunately mine have been working but my brother's have been behaving like those in the article


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

The experience he details sounds very much like what we live through and a lot of the stories here. I wish he had contacted DirecTV as a member of the press to see if they would comment.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks for the new avatar I love it. 

His D* experience sounds better than mine, I have 2 years of crappy customer service around the HR20.

Love this first line.

"Well, I was going to write my post-mortem of the iPhone launch and go into an entire diatribe on crappy customer service and the perils of early adoption, but then I found myself with a much better target than AT&T Wireless and Apple — the jackasses at DIRECTV."


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## vansmack (Aug 14, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I wish he had contacted DirecTV as a member of the press to see if they would comment.


Name calling, such as "jackasses" is a clear sign that he is not, in fact, a member of the press, but instead just a blogger.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

vansmack said:


> Name calling, such as "jackasses" is a clear sign that he is not, in fact, a member of the press, but instead just a blogger.


Not sure there is much difference anymore, regardless of how he states it, it all rings the bell of truth. Nice to see the bell being rung more in other places rather than the fanboy mantra of everything is fine just wait a month until the next release. I have been waiting for 2 years for the next release.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

vansmack said:


> Name calling, such as "jackasses" is a clear sign that he is not, in fact, a member of the press, but instead just a blogger.


vansmack,

You're probably right although much that I read in the newspapers makes you wonder if that's just the level to which journalism in the United States has fallen.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

If I had two years of what I considered to be unacceptable software I certainly wouldn't be giving that company my business anymore.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

I'm sure I'll get flamed into oblivion for even saying this, but .... the fact is that the in spite of what any D* sympathizer here will say the Tivo software was vastly superior what D* is now developing in-house. It's better than what Comcast was doing and that's why they are rolling out the tivo stuff on their boxes.

I know this has been beat into the ground over and over again, but how many times do people have to start out with "I used to have a tivo, now I have this HR20 piece of crap." 

I consider myself an early adapter and am willing to put up with more to get more (HD in this case). But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't willing to put up with a large amount of BS.

Comcast has their problems and I’ve mentioned so in other threads. But these DVRs have not been good for D* (along with crappy installs). They will only remain on top as long as they have the most channels. As soon as the others catch up people will jump ship.


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## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

I'd say, I'd have to agree with justlgi. I find the HR20 to be superior to the TIVO platform. It wasn't when it cameout, but it is now.

The only thing missing is the MRV and hopefully, we'll have that by Christmas.

I symthazise with the blank recordings, but having 5 HR2x's in the house and not having it happen to me ever, I don't think it's as wide spread as others are lead to believe. Now I have the tuner 2 searching for signal bug on one of my receivers, but DirecTv is replacing that box and we'll see if that fixes it.


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## rmbrown15 (Jan 26, 2008)

btmoore said:


> Thanks for the new avatar I love it.


I proudly resized it, uploaded the image to a Web site, and was going to proudly present it for all to behold........You beat me to the punch. :lol:


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Are you guys serious? You care enough to create a custom avatar making some kind of "statement" about how bad your receivers are but you won't take your business elsewhere? :nono2:


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Are you guys serious? You care enough to create a custom avatar making some kind of "statement" about how bad your receivers are but you won't take your business elsewhere? :nono2:


That's my question... if you guys are so miserable then why are you still a client? I'll be Danged if I would be giving a company $150+ of my money every month if I hated them that much! If your experience is so bad, cut your losses and go elsewhere, it makes no sense whatsoever for you to make yourselves this miserable.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Are you guys serious? You care enough to create a custom avatar making some kind of "statement" about how bad your receivers are but you won't take your business elsewhere? :nono2:


It takes 30 seconds to resize a picture and change the avitar.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

btmoore said:


> It takes 30 seconds to resize a picture and change the avitar.


Methinks you missed the point.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

I have actually been surprised that nobody in the "media " (Cnet, the WSJ, a blogger etc.), has reported on this story before. It's an interesting story and the media loves reporting about problems with a product rollout.

Like the blogger, I am stunned that D* has been this cavalier about the HR2x roll-out problems. I had hoped that they would get their act together over the summer, as more of these boxes were rolled out to the Sunday ticket subscribers. 

If the boxes lock up on a Sunday or Monday in the fall, you will begin to hear true weeping and wailing from customers. I will continue to run the Tivo HR10-250 as my primary DVR while I wait for the dust to settle.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)




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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

btmoore said:


> It takes 30 seconds to resize a picture and change the avitar.


and 10 minutes to end your misery once and for all (but maybe new misery elsewhere)..


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> Are you guys serious? You care enough to create a custom avatar making some kind of "statement" about how bad your receivers are but you won't take your business elsewhere? :nono2:


1. Currently D* has the most HD
2. Most people are stuck in a contract and loved D* when the had a tivo.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

justlgi said:


> 1. Currently D* has the most HD
> 2. Most people are stuck in a contract and loved D* when the had a tivo.


If you've had an HR2x for two years (as above) you're not in a contract... unless of course you were dumb enough to re-up the contract by getting another crappy HR2x.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

And it depends on where you live. Where I'm at, if I want HD, it's DirecTV or Dish, period. And I like the picture on DirecTV better, plus they have more channels.

I'll put up with some (fortunately not much) misery with my HR20-700 because I really have very few options.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

AlbertZeroK said:


> I'd say, I'd have to agree with justlgi. I find the HR20 to be superior to the TIVO platform. It wasn't when it cameout, but it is now.


You need to reread my post.

The HR is better now, but it's no tivo, and you've gotten used to the mediocrity.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> And it depends on where you live. Where I'm at, if I want HD, it's DirecTV or Dish, period. And I like the picture on DirecTV better, plus they have more channels.
> 
> I'll put up with some (fortunately not much) misery with my HR20-700 because I really have very few options.


Carl - good point, but I doubt that's the case in the SF Bay area.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

houskamp said:


> and 10 minutes to end *our* misery once and for all (but maybe new misery elsewhere)..


Fixed your post.  :lol:


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> If you've had an HR2x for two years (as above) you're not in a contract... unless of course you were dumb enough to re-up the contract by getting another crappy HR2x.


Only speaking for myself and situation in article. When the business model is via contract asking me why I don't leave isn't a valid argument.

I do see your point after contract is up. I have service coverage on my account so that once 2 years is up I can make a choice then. Right now it doesn't look good for D*, but if they still rule HD in my area maybe it will.


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


>


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

justlgi said:


> Only speaking for myself and situation in article. When the business model is via contract asking me why I don't leave isn't a valid argument.
> 
> I do see your point after contract is up. I have service coverage on my account so that once 2 years is up I can make a choice then. Right now it doesn't look good for D*, but if they still rule HD in my area maybe it will.


I wasn't referring directly to you - I was more referring to the guys that changed their avatars to HR-lemons.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

justlgi said:


> I'm sure I'll get flamed into oblivion for even saying this, but .... the fact is that the in spite of what any D* sympathizer here will say the Tivo software was vastly superior what D* is now developing in-house. It's better than what Comcast was doing and that's why they are rolling out the tivo stuff on their boxes.
> 
> I know this has been beat into the ground over and over again, but how many times do people have to start out with "I used to have a tivo, now I have this HR20 piece of crap."
> 
> ...


Justlgi:

I stand behind you. That way you can shield me from the worst of the heat. 

IMHO, the TIVO box is much better than the current D* offering. I suspect many others think so as well, but they have either have moved on or are simply weary of the "My HR2x works perfectly posts."

My Tivo HR10-250 is probably good for 24 months, and gets the networks in HD reliably. By then, anything is possible.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

The problem with this article is that it opens old wounds. I didn't even know about this board until I upgraded to the HR20 I didn't know about it because I didn't have to. But I had to seek it out due to searching for signal and blank recordings galore.

Slowly the problems are ceasing for me. But new ones crop up with new releases. But I think that I'm better equipped to deal with it because of the community here. But let’s be honest that shouldn't have to be the case. Just look at the thread for the latest software release.

Maybe it's just how long I had TIVO (3 years) that I just don't remember the issues. But that seems to be the case for most people who had it.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> And it depends on where you live. Where I'm at, if I want HD, it's DirecTV or Dish, period. And I like the picture on DirecTV better, plus they have more channels.
> 
> I'll put up with some (fortunately not much) misery with my HR20-700 because I really have very few options.


Carl:

Is the Comcast offering in SF really that bad? Is that based upon any recent first hand experiences?


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

^ I have no idea. I live outside LaCrosse, Wisconsin. tcusta00 was referring to someone else. My location is quite rural.

Back on topic: It's a shame DirecTV is getting this public spanking, but maybe it will be a motivator. It seems like they are seriously working on stability of the HR2x with the latest updates and CE offerings. But of course, that now has resulted in a new problem, the _slow response to the remote and freeze-up_ bug. This would drive me crazy if I was a software engineer.


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

In my almost four months with the HR20 after 7 years of series one tivos and directivos, I'm disappointed.

I switched because my directivo started having glitchy guide problems when directv changed to the "new guide data stream" a couple of years back. Before they made that change, the series 1 and directivo's were pretty darn bulletproof and rarely had problems.

With the directivo problems we were having (missed shows mostly) I was assured by directv that the problems had to do with tivo being the software originator and directv having no control over the problems. And that I wouldnt have the same problems with their product.

Were I not many hundreds of dollars into this 'solution' and more than a year and a half on a contract, I'd bail on it. Heck, I just found out yesterday that my $300 investment in NFL sunday ticket didnt even get me the games in HD, that I'd have to spend an extra $100 to get that. When I got HD recorders, an HD dish, pay HD access fees, and subscribe to all the HD channels. I was so mad I came within a nanosecond of telling them to try billing me for the cancellation fees and come get their crappy equipment.

The frequent problems I'm experiencing are reminiscent of tivo s/w back in the 1.2/1.3 and early 2.0 days. Blank recordings, periodic slow response times, reboots required, missed shows by the boatload. I definitely jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

In the meanwhile, my circa 2001 series 1 tivo thats hooked up to the basic cable feed to get my sons PBS shows continues to record exactly what I want, exactly when its supposed to. And hasnt required a reboot in almost a year since I plugged it in.

Using software from around 2003.

The HD capabilities, on-demand and some of the other niceties are good, when the box works. But its become clear to me that directv is far more interested in matching feature lists with their competitors than making the core functionality of the product work properly. Their programmers know that, and who in their right mind would want to work on boring old basic recording functionality when you could write code to support WIDGETS!

All this time I really wanted widgets, and didnt even know it.  

Cable might be worse. Tivo might not be as good as I remember it. Dish can kiss my patootie after giving me the most horrifying customer service experience of my life.

But this is no bueno.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> I have actually been surprised that nobody in the "media " (Cnet, the WSJ, a blogger etc.), has reported on this story before. It's an interesting story and the media loves reporting about problems with a product rollout.


I'm more surprised that the tech-press and bloggers haven't had more reports on the success of the CE program, resulting in what is essentially a reinvention of the DVR Plus software.



> Like the blogger, I am stunned that D* has been this cavalier about the HR2x roll-out problems. I had hoped that they would get their act together over the summer, as more of these boxes were rolled out to the Sunday ticket subscribers.
> 
> If the boxes lock up on a Sunday or Monday in the fall, you will begin to hear true weeping and wailing from customers. I will continue to run the Tivo HR10-250 as my primary DVR while I wait for the dust to settle.


There's no way I would call DIRECTV's response to user problems cavalier. Do you see Comcast or Cablevision or Dish creating public beta programs with the depth, breadth and level of involvement that DIRECTV has? And are you aware of how much the DVR has changed since DIRECTV started the Cutting Edge program? That's not cavalier. That's investing in their customers.


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## guins (Sep 12, 2007)

I could have written this article. I just got my 3rd HD-20 delivered in less than a year. If this one acts like the others, I am gone! I never imagined leaving Directv (after 10 years), but clearly DISH has the better hardware at this point in time.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Yet the experiences noted in that article are the complete opposite of my experience. Not sure why some people have problems and others don't - poor installation could be one reason - but I've been happy with my HR20's and HR21's. Can't recall a missed recording or instant keep or delete bug since January (maybe February) 2007.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I'm more surprised that the tech-press and bloggers haven't had more reports on the success of the CE program, resulting in what is essentially a reinvention of the DVR Plus software.
> 
> There's no way I would call DIRECTV's response to user problems cavalier. Do you see Comcast or Cablevision or Dish creating public beta programs with the depth, breadth and level of involvement that DIRECTV has? And are you aware of how much the DVR has changed since DIRECTV started the Cutting Edge program? That's not cavalier. That's investing in their customers.


Hey, I would like D* to succeed. That sometimes requires tough love. If you want excellent products, you get that by having high expectations. I became a D* customer because it had superior hardware (Ultimate TV) and PQ (pre HD days) and the NFL .

As I pointed out, the press likes to cover product roll-out "problems." A beta testing program for DVR software is not really news, especially a successful one.

The recent misfire with the NR is hardly evidence of the "success of the CE program." Didn't the recently withdrawn NR go through the CE program? My sense is that most of the CE beta testers are pretty invested in the HR2x platform. Nothing wrong with that, but it means when things go badly they are more charitable toward D* than many of the rest of us are inclined to be.

Dish is now running ads where they crow about their number one DVR ranking on Cnet. (I have never used their box or the service, no flames please.) Therefore, Dish doesn't need to talk about a public beta program, as it appears their DVR is pretty well received by reviewers and users. IMHO, TIVO is in a class by itself. If you hang a TIVO box on your cable system, the DVR beta software testing program will probably be the least of your problems.

I do think D*s failure to make a public statement about the status of the current NR and its future plans for the HR2x software is rather "cavalier." I think that was the blogger's point as well.

I am sure D* management wants the HR2x software to work as much as anyone. However, when there is a misfire that leads to missed recordings, RBRs, etc., the best thing to do would be to make a statement about (i) what happened and (ii) how long it will take to fix. The lack of formal communication on this issue makes the problem more irritating.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

I would like to know how much of the trouble is a result of bad installs. I have three receivers. The original installation included an HR20 and a D12. I actually helped during the install, pulling wires and such. I think the job was done well and both receivers have worked very well.

Later, I was invited to be part of the SWMLine field trial. I had promised that if I could be involved that I would add an HR21, so I did. Since one advantage of SWM technology was that you could reuse a cable installation, I decided to do just that.

It's using old cable, old barrel connectors and who knows what is under the siding outside. That HR21 has had a lot of problems.

As soon as I get the drill bit I need to run a new line up from the basement, I will find out just how important the installation is. I suspect it is important judging from the fact that the installation is the big difference between those that work and that which doesn't.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

bakers12 said:


> I would like to know how much of the trouble is a result of bad installs. I have three receivers. The original installation included an HR20 and a D12. I actually helped during the install, pulling wires and such. I think the job was done well and both receivers have worked very well.
> 
> Later, I was invited to be part of the SWMLine field trial. I had promised that if I could be involved that I would add an HR21, so I did. Since one advantage of SWM technology was that you could reuse a cable installation, I decided to do just that.
> 
> ...


Maybe it is installations. However, all my Signal levels are good to excellent, my house is only a couple of years old with all RG6Q wiring with 3 lines to each location. 2 SAT and 1 OTA. I had lots of blank recordings for a while a few months back, then nothing changed other than the software and I have had none for a while. Of course others are having them still, but the incidence sure seems much lower than a couple of months back.

I am glad to see this issue getting coverage though. I always figured that it just took the right people having it happen a few times and DirecTV would have to devote more resources to this issue. Given the intermittent nature of the issue, the only way they will get it fixed is by long and careful observation. I know it is hard, but they have to keep working on it.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

justlgi said:


> I'm sure I'll get flamed into oblivion for even saying this, but .... the fact is that the in spite of what any D* sympathizer here will say the Tivo software was vastly superior what D* is now developing in-house. It's better than what Comcast was doing and that's why they are rolling out the tivo stuff on their boxes.


You haven't been keeping up. Tivo on the Comcast box is such a disaster that they are running from it right now.



justlgi said:


> I know this has been beat into the ground over and over again, but how many times do people have to start out with "I used to have a tivo, now I have this HR20 piece of crap."


About the same amount of times that I realize that I have more problems with my ONE Tivo with a cablecard than I do with THREE HR2x's. All complicated systems have issues.



justlgi said:


> Comcast has their problems and I've mentioned so in other threads. But these DVRs have not been good for D* (along with crappy installs). They will only remain on top as long as they have the most channels. As soon as the others catch up people will jump ship.


Contrary to opinion in geek areas like this one, most people do NOT pick a provider based upon DVRs or other hardware. They pick it on price and content. That is why there are so many real POS's like SA8300s in the wild.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> ^ I have no idea. I live outside LaCrosse, Wisconsin. tcusta00 was referring to someone else. My location is quite rural.
> 
> Back on topic: It's a shame DirecTV is getting this public spanking, but maybe it will be a motivator. It seems like they are seriously working on stability of the HR2x with the latest updates and CE offerings. But of course, that now has resulted in a new problem, the _slow response to the remote and freeze-up_ bug. This would drive me crazy if I was a software engineer.


I don't disagree that they are probably working on stability, but with the latest updates (235 & 251), they have failed.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> I wasn't referring directly to you - I was more referring to the guys that changed their avatars to HR-lemons.


And why does people changing their avatars upset you?


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

ATARI said:


> And why does people changing their avatars upset you?


When did I say it upset me? :nono2:


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

tonyd79 said:


> Contrary to opinion in geek areas like this one, most people do NOT pick a provider based upon DVRs or other hardware. They pick it on price and content. That is why there are so many real POS's like SA8300s in the wild.


 And a POS like the HR20?

That's why I said:"They will only remain on top as long as they have the most channels."


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Who does have the most HD national channels now?

D* website says 95.

But a press release from E* said they now have 100.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

ATARI said:


> Who does have the most HD national channels now?
> 
> D* website says 95.
> 
> But a press release from E* said they now have 100.


Please, let's not turn this thread into a debate about who has the most HD .. there are better places for that discussion .. :backtotop


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

OK, let's steer this one back to polite territory. 

You all are certainly welcome to your opinion, as am I, and so here's mine:

It would be foolish of me to say that the current national releases have had no problems. Even I got hit with a blank recording, and these days I'm not recording very much. However, to see the level of dedication that DIRECTV displays here... it's really amazing. They are acting so quickly to squash bugs, and they've opened so many of their processes to us, it's unprecedented. 

For those who say Dish products have no problems, I welcome you to browse the other side of this site. They have frequent updates and bug fixes too. 

For those who think TiVo was or is some sort of savior to the DVR industry, I welcome you to find a provider who supports the cablecard TiVo to your satisfaction, or if your area can get the ComcasTivo, please try that. The implementation problems are huge with both cablecard and Comcast TiVos.

For those who have forgotten what the term "POS" really means, visit a friend with a Motorola or Scientific Atlanta DVR. I'm sure they're just happy as clams with them, if they use them at all. 

Folks, do what you wish. Be happy with whatever provider and equipment you want. I'll stay with the one that's consistently led in programming and value for me, as well and the one with the most innovative public beta program in the industry. It's your call.


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## groove93 (Jun 10, 2008)

Nicholsen said:


> I have actually been surprised that nobody in the "media " (Cnet, the WSJ, a blogger etc.), has reported on this story before. It's an interesting story and the media loves reporting about problems with a product rollout.
> 
> Like the blogger, I am stunned that D* has been this cavalier about the HR2x roll-out problems. I had hoped that they would get their act together over the summer, as more of these boxes were rolled out to the Sunday ticket subscribers.
> 
> If the boxes lock up on a Sunday or Monday in the fall, you will begin to hear true weeping and wailing from customers. I will continue to run the Tivo HR10-250 as my primary DVR while I wait for the dust to settle.


There was actually two articles at Cnet.com a few months ago about issues with the HR2x platform and how the reporter was much happier with the Tivo Box.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

The cNet articles are notoriously out of date and they've been discussed to death here before. We've contacted cNet to ask them to do a fair review but they've declined.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tcusta00 said:


> Are you guys serious? You care enough to create a custom avatar making some kind of "statement" about how bad your receivers are but you won't take your business elsewhere? :nono2:


That's the beauty of the 24 month commitment. Downgrading isn't much of an option as that will get you into the arguably more problematic and decidedly less featured R16.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tcusta00 said:


> Carl - good point, but I doubt that's the case in the SF Bay area.


You would be truly surprised by the lack of options in the SF area. Most of the CATV action there is covered by a heterogeneous mish-mash of small Comcast franchises that are having a wicked time bringing themselves into the 21st digital age.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> For those who say Dish products have no problems, I welcome you to browse the other side of this site. They have frequent updates and bug fixes too.


I agree with everything you say Stuart, except for this bit. I do look at the Dish forums, and they do have problems. But for nearly the same size customer base (11mil vs 16mil I think?), they seem to have _far_ fewer problems. They just had had another release for the 722 and have, what, a dozen people complaining about some OTA audio dropouts? Compare that to the recent x235 and x251 issues on the HR2x series...

I'm not saying that DirecTV isn't trying, just that I don't understand why they can't make consistent forward progress and sustain the progress they've made. My HR20 was more stable and more reliable last fall. It's less so now. That's not a trend in the right direction. If they're going to charge more money than their competitors and market themselves as a 'premium' service, I expect more in return.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Not sure what Dish is Like now, but I had dish for several years and their quality control made DirecTV look good. 

I do agree with what Stuart is saying. I am with DirecTV because htey have the best features and best working DVR I can see right now. (aside from TiVo, but if I go Cable, I lose channels I get right now). So, short of TiVo and DirecTV doing another deal, which is not going to happen, I will stay where I am.

However, we still deserve a better service than we have gotten out of the HR20, so I will keep whining about it.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Drew2k said:


> I'm more surprised that the tech-press and bloggers haven't had more reports on the success of the CE program, resulting in what is essentially a reinvention of the DVR Plus software.


I would guess that DIRECTV would discourage active coverage of a beta (alpha) software development program. Widespread publication would familiarize the public with unreleased products and features that may never see the light of NR.

Talking about fixes for what is wrong may also unduly sensitize the mainstream subscribers to issues that weren't otherwise important (Google "Trinitron wires").

Fixes for persistent bugs should be job #1, but DIRECTV has done little more than provide an example of what can go wrong when you dismiss regression testing.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> The cNet articles are notoriously out of date and they've been discussed to death here before. We've contacted cNet to ask them to do a fair review but they've declined.


Stuart:

Are you referring to the two equipment reviews on the HR20 and HR21?

After further research, I assume you are talking about the two Peter Glaskowsky articles from March 2008.

1. While the articles are not flattering to D*, what is out of date about them?

2. What is unfair about the articles?


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

vansmack said:


> Name calling, such as "jackasses" is a clear sign that he is not, in fact, a member of the press, but instead just a blogger.


Considering the extent of his problems and the response he got from DirecTV I think "jackasses" is a pretty tame comment, whether journalist or blogger.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> Stuart:
> 
> Are these the two equipment reviews on the HR20 and HR21? Or articles discussing the D* DVR products generally
> 
> What do you mean by a "fair" review? Are there particular things about the reviews that make you think they are unfair (other than you view that the units have improved over time)?


Last I looked (before this article) the review they had was still from sept 06 :nono:


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

I wouldn't call some guy on a blog an analyst, nor are his problems universal. I've had by HR20 over a year, and it has been great. DirecTV has added features, and improvements all the while. My unit has been rock solid.


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## kymikes (Jan 16, 2008)

From the viewpoint of someone who has been "in the arena" since the early Series 1 TIVO through the DirectTIVO (when they were owned for $1,000) and has experienced the "bad HDMI" connectors and bad power supplies on the HR10's, I would really love to know how the divergence of opinion and emotionalism of many responses reaches such a fever pitch. 

I added (replaced other older units) an HR21 & an H21 in Dec 2007 to compliment the HR10 and another HD reciever. I never had a missed recording or blank recording in 8+ years (not on either TIVO nor on the HR21). I am somewhat of a "middle of the road" customer with 4 TV's (3 of which are HD) and I think I record "a lot".

Although I can't describe everything that DirecTV does as perfect, all in all I have gotten much better service than I ever hoped to get on cable (even though it has been a while ago). Most CSR's are pleasant and they usually get it right even though I have to help them sometimes.

I spent over thirty years designing and managing development of consumer and corporate smallish electronics based products that sold in largish volumes and think that D* has made a serious effort to deal with the unique situation in their market with the CE program. Has everything been perfect? No! Have they made a concerted effort to do the reasonable thing? I think YES.

I have one neighbor who has a Dish solution. I wouldn't want it but he is happy with it (very light TV watcher, not interested in HD). The neighbor on the other side is a cable customer with Time Warner - he is satisfied but has very low expectations and this would not satisfy me).

Some of our posters really need to get a life. Many seem to think the world (and D*) are apparently only put here to satisfy their personal needs. Not true - this is "market driven". Others seem to only be in these forums to "vent" or "flame". I hope this attitude makes them happy but it sure doesn't add anything of much value to the forum content. Sorry for my rant but it is getting harder to find a series of posts on any subject that aren't highjacked for someone else's rant. I don't know how the mods and the other helpful posters maintain the pleasant attitude as well as they do. Thanks to all of them.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> Stuart:
> 
> Are you referring to the two equipment reviews on the HR20 and HR21?
> 
> ...


I speak of cNet's official review of the HR20 which has not changed. Mr. Glaskowsky did his own review on a cNet blog.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Last I looked (before this article) the review they had was still from sept 06 :nono:


I corrected my prior posting. I think the three articles are from March of 2008.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I speak of cNet's official review of the HR20 which has not changed. Mr. Glaskowsky did his own review on a cNet blog.


Got cha. The official reviews are dated.

In what way do you think they were unfair?


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

harsh said:


> You would be truly surprised by the lack of options in the SF area. Most of the CATV action there is covered by a heterogeneous mish-mash of small Comcast franchises that are having a wicked time bringing themselves into the 21st digital age.


correct, sort of sad with it being basicly the technology center of the world.


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## psychobabbler (Sep 16, 2006)

say-what said:


> Yet the experiences noted in that article are the complete opposite of my experience. Not sure why some people have problems and others don't - poor installation could be one reason - but I've been happy with my HR20's and HR21's. Can't recall a missed recording or instant keep or delete bug since January (maybe February) 2007.


Ditto, here. I know I've missed recordings in the past, but they have been few and far between. I tried using my DirecTivo HD recently and hated it (probably because the interface is very different). I found it slow and unresponsive, but that's just me. There's a reason why Tivo is somewhat of a dying breed in its current state. I got rid of the last semblance of Tivo a couple of weeks ago when I did the upgrade program. I now have and HR20-700 and a HR21-700, and I'm perfectly happy with them.

It's fine for people to express their grievances, and usually we hear more loudly from those who haven't had good experiences. I'm certainly no Directv honk, but I feel they are doing a very good job, personally.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Not sure there is much difference anymore, regardless of how he states it, it all rings the bell of truth. Nice to see the bell being rung more in other places rather than the fanboy mantra of everything is fine just wait a month until the next release. I have been waiting for 2 years for the next release.


2 years? Considering the HR2X's haven't been out that long I find that impossible...

If it was 2 years, and it wasn't, you'd be outside your commitment and free to leave. Why not exercise that right?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Are you guys serious? You care enough to create a custom avatar making some kind of "statement" about how bad your receivers are but you won't take your business elsewhere? :nono2:


Some people get their kicks out of arguing and being haters.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Nicholsen said:


> If the boxes lock up on a Sunday or Monday in the fall, you will begin to hear true weeping and wailing from customers. I will continue to run the Tivo HR10-250 as my primary DVR while I wait for the dust to settle.


I have a HR10-250 now, and it's just fine. I'm no Tivo fanboy, and really aren't swayed by UI differences or minor feature differences. I also really want to get all the new HD channels DirecTV is offering. Comcast in my area has a paltry HD line-up, and I'm not so sure about Dish's future (plus I had that bad Dishplayer experience in 99/00). So, that means DirecTV is my "best bet" for additional HD, and it'll require the new receivers.

Which is why I watch the forums intently. I have to be confident the switch won't result in major issues (unwatchable programs, missed recordings and reboots are major - lack of media share/caller ID is not) - or I know there will be hell to pay from the wife down the road. She doesn't care so much about HD, just wants her shows to record. If the new box has more problems than the current one, it'd be my fault for "forcing" the switch.

I know, I know, lots of people have no issues, the box works great. That's not enough. There are many people that have major issues, and the continued rapid pace of release shows DirecTV knows it (and is trying to fix it, which is good). To claim otherwise is just disingenuous.

All this consternation and back/forth progress keeps me on the sidelines, hoping this forum dies down, actually. I want DirecTV to stabilize the boxes enough that software releases for "core feature stability and robustness" are few and far between.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> 2 years? Considering the HR2X's haven't been out that long I find that impossible...
> 
> If it was 2 years, and it wasn't, you'd be outside your commitment and free to leave. Why not exercise that right?


Correct if you want to parse hairs, it is just shy of 2 years, it came out in late Aug 2008 ~ 1 year 11 months ago and for me in early Sep it will be 2 years. To give you some history here is one of my first posts almost 2 years old called "Unwatchable recording"  That thread is from 09-25-06 and if you didn't know any better it could be a posting from a user today, *I am serious, read it*, everyone should read it to get a perspective of the long term quality issues with the HR2x product. Call me a hater if you like, but the there is the naked truth. Exact same bugs exist today as existed 2 years ago. If looks like a lemon, acts like a lemon and smells like a lemon it is likely a HR2X.

I don't even bother responding to love it or leave it comments anymore.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

kymikes said:


> From the viewpoint of someone who has been "in the arena" since the early Series 1 TIVO through the DirectTIVO (when they were owned for $1,000) and has experienced the "bad HDMI" connectors and bad power supplies on the HR10's, I would really love to know how the divergence of opinion and emotionalism of many responses reaches such a fever pitch.
> 
> I added (replaced other older units) an HR21 & an H21 in Dec 2007 to compliment the HR10 and another HD reciever. I never had a missed recording or blank recording in 8+ years (not on either TIVO nor on the HR21). I am somewhat of a "middle of the road" customer with 4 TV's (3 of which are HD) and I think I record "a lot".
> 
> ...




You openly wonder why people get emotional, then dismiss everyone with legitimate gripes by claiming you 'never have an issue' and those with problems should just 'get a life'.

That's _exactly_ the response that gets people emotional.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

Redlinetire said:


> You openly wonder why people get emotional, then dismiss everyone with legitimate gripes by claiming you 'never have an issue' and those with problems should just 'get a life'.
> 
> That's _exactly_ the response that gets people emotional.


:grin: 
Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> 2 years? Considering the HR2X's haven't been out that long I find that impossible...
> 
> If it was 2 years, and it wasn't, you'd be outside your commitment and free to leave. Why not exercise that right?


1. Let's say it was only 21 months ago, not a full 24 months. And your point is that makes a difference?

2.. This might not be a great week for D* to suggest that frustrated DVR users take their business elsewhere. A sincere apology for the NR problem coupled with a commitment to fix it might be a good first step.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

justlgi said:


> :grin:
> Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking.


+1


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

btmoore said:


> I don't even bother responding to love it or leave it comments anymore.


Right, why isn't there a "third option"? Complain because you want things to work right seems reasonable to me. Nowhere in the contract with DirecTV you have does it say, "keep your mouth shut and be happy we're working on the problem".

To Stuart: I think it's great DirecTV is working on the problems so actively. I would certainly choose that if the only other alternative was someone who ignored/minimized the problems. But what most people really want, given the length of time it's been, is a DVR that "just works right".

Personally, as someone on the sidelines, I think DirecTV has made a ton of progress. Reading the recent issue threads there are clearly great strides, and I'm a lot closer to pulling the trigger (to get a HR21) than I was a year ago. Hopefully in the next 6 months there will be even more progress. But for anyone like btmoore who has had a problematic box/boxes for 1-2 years, the light at the end of the tunnel might seem far, far away - and the promises of more work don't seem like a great thing, if the past is any indication for them.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> Got cha. The official reviews are dated.
> 
> In what way do you think they were unfair?


At the time the reviews were done, the HR20 had less functionality and less stability (yes, less than today. Much less.)


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Folks, do what you wish. Be happy with whatever provider and equipment you want. I'll stay with the one that's consistently led in programming and value for me, as well and the one with the most innovative public beta program in the industry. It's your call.


The CE program isn't "beta", it's alpha or worse. The NR's have been the beta test program for almost two years now. A true beta program would not have the large number of major bugs that the CE program has.

I agree that the CE program has helped things improve, but I wouldn't call it innovative. It's more like taking advantage of non-compensated testers instead of utilizing in house resources (to save costs). If people are willing to help for free, why not utilize them? That's just smart business (which I guess could be deemed innovative after all).

For now DirecTV has successfully lured in many new subscribers with their HD leader strategy. If they can keep them given recent events will be interesting to watch. Many of those 2-year commitment clocks are approaching zero, and available HD channel counts are equalizing.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> At the time the reviews were done, the HR20 had less functionality and less stability (yes, less than today. Much less.)


Thanks for the reply.

I agree that the HR21 deserves an updated review. The 'See HR20" review is not really useful given the history.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> 1. Let's say it was only 21 months ago, not a full 24 months. And your point is that makes a difference?


My point was that the units have not been out for 2 years yet so his claim of waiting 2 years for fixes was an exaggeration. An exaggeration no doubt being used to fan his flames of hatred. An exaggeration that is completely uncalled for. 21 months is NOT 2 years no matter how bad your math is.



Nicholsen said:


> 2.. This might not be a great week for D* to suggest that frustrated DVR users take their business elsewhere. A sincere apology for the NR problem coupled with a commitment to fix it might be a good first step.


They've been committed to fixing the DVR from the start, how can you people not see that?


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

btmoore said:


> I don't even bother responding to love it or leave it comments anymore.


No, it's not "love it or leave it," it's more like "if you hate it so bad why are you paying them money to stay?" You don't have to love it to stay, but a sane person would have to at least have some positive feelings toward a company to keep keep them.

You have two months left in your contract, assuming you have a 2 year contract that started in Sept '06 - I'm just saying that if I were you and I were experiencing the level of difficulties you _say _you're having I'd be taking my business elsewhere. That's all.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> My point was that the units have not been out for 2 years yet so his claim of waiting 2 years for fixes was an exaggeration. An exaggeration no doubt being used to fan his flames of hatred. An exaggeration that is completely uncalled for. 21 months is NOT 2 years no matter how bad your math is.
> 
> They've been committed to fixing the DVR from the start, how can you people not see that?


21 months or 24 months is the same in this context. The poster doesn't need to exaggerate (or count in months in stead of years) to make his point. Your are implying that the poster is being untruthful. I don't think that is helpful.

By commitment, I mean a time certain for a fix. I think we are past the point where the "commitment" to fix is the issue. After 21 months, many people want to see results, not vague promises.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> No, it's not "love it or leave it," it's more like "if you hate it so bad why are you paying them money to stay?" You don't have to love it to stay, but a sane person would have to at least have some positive feelings toward a company to keep keep them.
> 
> You have two months left in your contract, assuming you have a 2 year contract that started in Sept '06 - I'm just saying that if I were you and I were experiencing the level of difficulties you _say _you're having I'd be taking my business elsewhere. That's all.


So does D* owe a refund for the 21-24 (whatever the count turns out to be) months of service he's had to endure?

The point is why doesn't he have a valid gripe, even if he has already moved on and was posting a "I HAD D* for 24 months" I think his point is still valid. 24 months is a long time to basically be forced to pay to be a beta tester.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> No, it's not "love it or leave it," it's more like "if you hate it so bad why are you paying them money to stay?" You don't have to love it to stay, but a sane person would have to at least have some positive feelings toward a company to keep keep them.
> 
> You have two months left in your contract, assuming you have a 2 year contract that started in Sept '06 - I'm just saying that if I were you and I were experiencing the level of difficulties you _say _you're having I'd be taking my business elsewhere. That's all.


I do business with several telecoms I don't really "like." It's an oligopoly, and they are are all big impersonal bureaucracies. You make the best of it.

Suggesting we should go to another big company (with a different set of problems) is not really a solution.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Ok, have at it then fellas. It's like talking to a wall.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Let's try taking this one back to topic, and if possible, comment on the specific points of the ZDNet article.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Stuart Sweet said:


> They are acting so quickly to squash bugs, and they've opened so many of their processes to us, it's unprecedented.


Acting (or reacting) quickly doesn't seem to translate to quickly (and permanently) squashed bugs; especially if you don't participate in the CE program.


> For those who say Dish products have no problems, I welcome you to browse the other side of this site. They have frequent updates and bug fixes too.


Take a look at the recent messages on the DBSTalk front page and count how many of them are related to H(R)-2x issues versus ViP issues. I'll wager that you find it to be a lop-sided relationship. Either the DIRECTV subscribers are a much more vocal crowd or they have a lot more to complain about (or both).


> I'll stay with the one that's consistently led in programming and value for me, as well and the one with the most innovative public beta program in the industry. It's your call.


Programming and value are very important in your choice of providers. It can be adversely impacted by poor receiver or DVR performance. The blogger's subscription and fees aren't bringing him much value if the confounded DVR doesn't, for whatever reason, record the programming he's paying to watch.

Public betas have been the cornerstone of Microsoft Windows testing since XP. The program was hailed as being in the customer's interest and a ground-breaking effort to produce the most stable and reliable Windows ever. In the final analysis, what do you get? Dozens of bugs ranging from minor annoyances to fundamental design flaws.

Public betas (alphas in many cases) are a smoke screen for not employing proven testing procedures in-house. If a bug survives a public beta, it is the public's fault for not thoroughly testing the product. If a bug like the screen saver bug can survive almost two years of "innovative" and "ground breaking" testing, there must be something wrong with the program.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

> especially if you don't participate in the CE program.


Since all CE's translate into national release sooner or later, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.



> Public betas have been the cornerstone of Microsoft Windows testing since XP.


Very true but what I speak of is, for lack of a better term, the degree of intimacy. DIRECTV engineers focus on the CE Issue threads and listen to both our bug reports and our suggestions. They act nimbly and effectively whenever possible to implement not only bug fixes but desired additional features.



> Programming and value are very important in your choice of providers. It can be adversely impacted by poor receiver or DVR performance.


Something on which we both agree. That's why the hobby I enjoy most is trying to improve the experience for as many people as possible, by giving technical support and advice, and also by communicating with our friends at DIRECTV on issues and workarounds.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Dr. Booda said:


> For now DirecTV has successfully lured in many new subscribers with their HD leader strategy. If they can keep them given recent events will be interesting to watch. Many of those 2-year commitment clocks are approaching zero, and available HD channel counts are equalizing.


Well, they've been growing for years actually and the first R15 subs have been off commitment for a year+ now and we're not seeing this great exodus of people because of the R15 "disaster" after the DirecTivo's. I highly doubt you will see anything in terms of people leaving in flocks when the HR20's start coming off commitments.

See, while there are a hard core group of people that "love Tivo" like it's their first born, the fact is that while Tivo used to own the DVR market, they now have less then 10% of the market. Latest number showed that Tivo is under 4 million subs, way more then half were still DirecTivo subs and shrinking while the DVR market is flying past 40 million subs. People don't choose a provider based on their DVR, it's content and price #1.

I really do feel for people with problems. But to think it will lead to a mass exodus is just ignoring the market and the facts. I certainly don't see a mass exodus of people away from the crappy cable DVRs. They dwarf Tivo (and DirecTV) installed DVR base by a wide margin and add to them everyday. And the Comcast Tivo has been a disaster really so Tivo couldn't get it right there.

But I agree that if you're unhappy with DirecTV, please go where you will be happy. Life is too short to get all worked up over TV.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

justlgi said:


> the fact is that the in spite of what any D* sympathizer here will say the Tivo software was vastly superior what D* is now developing in-house.


Actually that's not a fact, that's your opinion.

I was as much of a tivo fan as you could be for over 7 years. After getting my first HR20, I soon traded in my other 2 D*tivo's for HR21's. Even though most of my TV's are SD and I don't need HD DVR's, I still wanted them, because I like them better.

I don't know why some have problems and some don't, but the FACT is that not everyone experiences problems. We record a lot of shows across our 3 HR2X's. I don't think I've ever had the 771 error and only 2 blank recordings that I can recall (and not even sure if they were HR2X errors as one of them had the "to order this program" message).

My in-laws (father/mother AND brother/sister) all have D* with HR20's. As far as I know, they've never had any problems either, and since I'm the one that knows about D* and suggested it to them, I'd know.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> 21 months or 24 months is the same in this context.


Oh really? So if you call up DirecTV after 21 months and ask out of your commitment do you think they'll say "ok" and not worry about the other 3? Doubtful.



Nicholsen said:


> Your are implying that the poster is being untruthful.


Not implying anything. Anyone who reads his post knows he is.



Nicholsen said:


> By commitment, I mean a time certain for a fix. I think we are past the point where the "commitment" to fix is the issue. After 21 months, many people want to see results, not vague promises.


A great deal of us have seen results. I have 4 HR2X's units and I may have missed 2 recordings since I got my first one in August of 2006.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Ok, have at it then fellas. It's like talking to a wall.


Yeah, I have to agree. Our points are either ignored or overlooked.


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, they've been growing for years actually and the first R15 subs have been off commitment for a year+ now and we're not seeing this great exodus of people because of the R15 "disaster" after the DirecTivo's. I highly doubt you will see anything in terms of people leaving in flocks when the HR20's start coming off commitments.


I disagree. High valued customers (HD+DVR+Sports Subs) want to watch their games live or recorded without issues. If people are investing hundreds of dollars to watch NFLST/SF and they miss any action due to the box, there will be a point where they find it not worthwhile to continue to get the expensive packages. If those packages go away, then other providers with comparable HD offerings and a working DVR become more attractive. The HR-2x's will take this critical trial in ~6 weeks with many NLFST/SF subs (I don't know how many there are though).



bonscott87 said:


> But I agree that if you're unhappy with DirecTV, please go where you will be happy. Life is too short to get all worked up over TV.


True, but football is something to get worked up about!


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## jahgreen (Dec 15, 2006)

harsh said:


> You would be truly surprised by the lack of options in the SF area. Most of the CATV action there is covered by a heterogeneous mish-mash of small Comcast franchises that are having a wicked time bringing themselves into the 21st digital age.


100 percent correct for me. When we bought our house in 1991 it was Oakland Cable, then it became TCI, then ATT, then probably one I've forgotten, then Comcast. In those 17 years there have been no upgrades to the cable, which needed replacement in 1991.

They did finally provide some HD and 5.1, but only after 2004, when I switched to DirecTV.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Lookout: Captain, Icebergs dead ahead
Capitan: Screw the icebergs, full speed ahead
Lookout: But Captain, if we hit an iceberg we will sink and we don't have enough lifeboats.
Captain: We don't need no stink'in lifeboats.

This thread is sunk
:beatdeadhorse:


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> Originally Posted by Nicholsen
> Your are implying that the poster is being untruthful.
> 
> Not implying anything. Anyone who reads his post knows he is.


So I the way I read that you are calling me a lier. Rather rude and insulting of you. I don't think I called you a lier or any other any names. Perhaps you should retract that. We are not talking legal contracts but general amount of time and it has been about 2 years, like I said in a followup post, where I entertained your ranting, ~ 1 year 11 months to be more exact, IMO that is close enough to 2 years for this kind of conversation.

This thread IMO is about the article and how it talks about the HR2X is a lemon. Your rants and personal insults don't change that fact, I can have experienced and can point to multiple references to the exact same bugs 2 years ago that we experience today. IMO that is a lemon.


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## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

Dr. Booda said:


> I disagree. High valued customers (HD+DVR+Sports Subs) want to watch their games live or recorded without issues. If people are investing hundreds of dollars to watch NFLST/SF and they miss any action due to the box, there will be a point where they find it not worthwhile to continue to get the expensive packages. If those packages go away, then other providers with comparable HD offerings and a working DVR become more attractive. The HR-2x's will take this critical trial in ~6 weeks with many NLFST/SF subs (I don't know how many there are though).


I completely agree with you. The HD audience is definitely expecting a higher quality of service.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Lookout: Captain, Icebergs dead ahead
> Capitan: Screw the icebergs, full speed ahead
> Lookout: But Captain, if we hit an iceberg we will sink and we don't have enough lifeboats.
> Captain: We don't need no stink'in lifeboats.
> ...


That is the sad fact of the situation, when fanboys get personal with their attacks, it causes thread to get closed rather then just them getting shut down. Maybe it is a strategy to get threads closed that they don't like, intentional or accidental I can't say. Wish it would keep on the topic of the article and the lemon flavored nature of the HR2x which this thread is about and if you agree or not.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Things have been mostly civil in this thread .. let's see if we can keep it that way.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Dr. Booda said:


> True, but football is something to get worked up about!


True words. TV is just TV.

However, a blank recording on an important NFL game could lead to people in the streets.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

btmoore said:


> That is the sad fact of the situation, when fanboys get personal with their attacks, it causes thread to get closed rather then just them getting shut down. Maybe it is a strategy to get threads closed that they don't like, intentional or accidental I can't say. Wish it would keep on the topic of the article and the lemon flavored nature of the HR2x which this thread is about and if you agree or not.


It's just not the fans, it's the haters too. It takes two sides to argue, with neither listening (or reading) what the other has to say.

Just take your post for example. You lay 100% blame on "fanboys". You only want to blame the other side, completely dismissing their comments/concerns/etc. While you may not agree with them, they are just as valid as your points.


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## monetnj (Sep 28, 2004)

My goodness. This is the first time I've had a chance to check in on my original post and I didn't expect to see so many responses. Guess I hit a nerve. That being said, we have the usual litany of responses:

1. Right on! My HR-2(x) sucks too!
2. If you hate D* so much, then leave!
3. I've never had any trouble with my HR-2(x).
4. D* is doing ground breaking work with its customers and the CE program.
5. Dish has a much better DVR.
6. You think the HR-2(x) series is bad, you should see those cable DVRs!

A lot of venting, but not much progress or a response to the ZDNet blogger. I, for one, find the response by D* to his issues to be wanting. Bad customer service, period. D* deserves all the heat they (may) generate for the bug and the light ZDNet is bringing to it. 

My feeling is that I don't care how many CE programs D* creates to mollify us tech geeks, they should be doing a better job of squashing these basic bugs. Yes, it is an evolving platform, but this game of 2 steps forward and 1 step back has become very frustrating. For the most part, I am happy with my three HR series DVRs, but nearly 2 years should be enough time to make sure our DVRs perform basic functions reliably.


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## jimcummings (Jul 25, 2007)

I don't want to get into all this (I think unproductive) mudslinging.

In any case two comments in the blog intrigue me - one - the original poster says he gets $10 a month off, presumably because of this problem - really? At least that would be something.

Second a late poster there says the slimline dish solved the problem - anyone else have that result?

BTW I have had the 771 and black/grey recording problems for many months, have complained many times and after all is said and done -"They are working on it."

There is no viable alternative in the South Jersey area for HD. Comcast is terrible, FIOS is not in my town in the forseeable future and local DISH people have switched to Directv because of lousy service.

I have had Directv for a long, long time - service is the worst it has ever been.

Jim Cummings


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

RobertE said:


> It's just not the fans, it's the haters too. It takes two sides to argue, with neither listening (or reading) what the other has to say.
> 
> Just take your post for example. You lay 100% blame on "fanboys". You only want to blame the other side, completely dismissing their comments/concerns/etc. While you may not agree with them, they are just as valid as your points.


Where did I dismiss the other side? While I think you can dismiss the other side, it is part of a debate to counter. While I do think if you think the HR2x is not a lemon you are wrong, doesn't mean I think you are a bad person.

"Fanboys" or "Haters" who use personal attack are wrong. In the context of this thread it is more of a fanboy personal attack, I am sure one could find examples of the other way around.

Lets get back to talking about how the HR2x is a lemon


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

monetnj said:


> My goodness. This is the first time I've had a chance to check in on my original post and I didn't expect to see so many responses. Guess I hit a nerve. That being said, we have the usual litany of responses:
> 
> 1. Right on! My HR-2(x) sucks too!
> 2. If you hate D* so much, then leave!
> ...


Good summary.

For me, I fall into #3 above. So, for me personally, the HR2xs that I have perform the basic functions reliably. Not dismissing those that fall into #1 though. However, with that being said, from the memos that I've seen a good number of issues are installation related. Should the software/hardware be more forgiving in that regard? Absolutely.

Things go to hell in a handbasket when people in #1 start rants which are then countered by #3. #1 call #3 "fanboys", back-n-forth, blah, blah, blah. Or the reverse. The circle of life is grand.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

monetnj said:


> My goodness. This is the first time I've had a chance to check in on my original post and I didn't expect to see so many responses. Guess I hit a nerve. That being said, we have the usual litany of responses:
> 
> 1. Right on! My HR-2(x) sucks too!
> 2. If you hate D* so much, then leave!
> ...


This is good.

It reminds me of the old poster at work that said, in order to save time, employees are requested to give excuses by the number.

Perhaps we need a poll?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

So the thing is, that this has turned into a thread about the things people say in threads. 

I re-read the blog in question, and it seems to me that the big point wasn't so much that the blogger was having problems, he was having customer service issues. You can't ignore the fact that there was something going on at his house. However if 90% of his recordings are now black screens, that's something more than the problems we've been reporting here. Someone at DIRECTV should have taken note of that. 

They could have sent a tech, for example. They could have sent a replacement. They could have taken him seriously, which he didn't think they did. I think that's the real point. He didn't have a successful customer service experience.


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> He didn't have a successful *customer service experience*.


Somebody pushed the "Tivo" hot button and this thread was good for five pages. Now you go and push the "Customer Service Experience" button, white hot.

Here's one from recent thread. Guy in rural GA has HR20 fail to get sats. Various folks here suggest tests. Finds old dtivo works, so not wires or dish. Calls D* to asks they ship replacement. They refuse and insist on truck roll, scheduled in 18 days. *18 DAYS!* Sorry, no HD for you buddy.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

btmoore said:


> when fanboys get personal with their attacks,


Have you met the kettle?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Folks .. Stop it! 

Feel free to talk about the merits (good or bad) of the HR20. Healthy debate is welcomed, but what I'm starting to see is not ..


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

btmoore said:


> So I the way I read that you are calling me a lier. Rather rude and insulting of you. I don't think I called you a lier or any other any names. Perhaps you should retract that. We are not talking legal contracts but general amount of time and it has been about 2 years, like I said in a followup post, where I entertained your ranting, ~ 1 year 11 months to be more exact, IMO that is close enough to 2 years for this kind of conversation.
> 
> This thread IMO is about the article and how it talks about the HR2X is a lemon. Your rants and personal insults don't change that fact, I can have experienced and can point to multiple references to the exact same bugs 2 years ago that we experience today. IMO that is a lemon.


Uhhh, it's liar, not lier...

And in my book when someone says something that can't possibly true they would be a liar. Whether or not that applies to you is up to you.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

monetnj said:


> My goodness. This is the first time I've had a chance to check in on my original post and I didn't expect to see so many responses. Guess I hit a nerve. That being said, we have the usual litany of responses:
> 
> 1. Right on! My HR-2(x) sucks too!
> 2. If you hate D* so much, then leave!
> ...


There's another category that is close to #1 and that's the group that has lived through the same/similar issues both with the device and DirecTV's customer service, but they're not saying "Right on". They're lamenting that this continues and that an otherwise quality TV service is marred by a poor DVR and poor customer service.

I take no joy in posting issue reports or compiling hours of history logs for shows that don't record...it's not fun or all that interesting. Truly, I'd rather be posting that the dual feeds on MLB have been great this season...or that the mpeg4 quality is very nice unfortunately the experience is consistently disrupted by faulty DVRs.

Is DirecTV better than the others? I don't know...I think it was a DirecTV VP who admitted recently that being the best of the worst still isn't very good.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Life preservers are almost gone. Get one while you can.  

Full speed ahead.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

I believe the issue here is one of expectations. It seems that many people have very high expectations from their D* experience and any problem will result in huge disappointment. Others just expect to have some “glitches” and don’t take their TV viewing very seriously so if they have to reboot or miss a show, it’s no big deal.

I used to work for Mercedes-Benz. IMHO, they make the best vehicles in the world. However, they continually get slammed for “poor quality”. In years past, MBZ buyers expected that their very sophisticated vehicles would need additional “care”. The problem is, many consumers now are used to buying “appliances” – i.e. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. vehicles that “just work”. They don’t have the sophisticated systems and features of the MBZ and in fact often had technology “proven” by MBZ from ten years earlier. These consumers go buy an MBZ and they expect it to be like a “really nice” Honda. In reality, they are buying cutting-edge technology that may need adjustments. These people would put up with the loose steering and road noise of their $25K Honda, but when the brakes on their MBZ squeal or blacken the rims, they complain as if the vehicle is falling apart.

I see D* in much the same way. They are trying to sell cutting-edge technology to “mainstream” consumers who don’t understand that the price for this may include the occasional problem. On top of that, D* sees customer service as a liability instead of an asset, so those customers re met with disdain and a lack of sympathy when they call with for help. This is really a recipe for disaster. MBZ went through the same issues and their solution was to work on it from two angles. One, test the technology more before releasing it on the customers and two, create a more proactive environment for assisting customers. D* may need to learn this lesson the hard way, but when they do, it will be best for all of us.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

rudeney said:


> They are trying to sell cutting-edge technology to "mainstream" consumers who don't understand that the price for this may include the occasional problem.


It's a DVR. Not a robot with a built in missle defense system.

It should record things and not lose them.
It should allow me to pause it without freezing.

That's pretty much all I expect.

Dish can do it.
TiVo can do it (as long as you stay away from CableCards).
Heck, even a build-it-yourself MythTV box does it pretty well. And the software for that is free.

Is that really so 'cutting edge' that they can't do it?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Stuart Sweet said:


> So the thing is, that this has turned into a thread about the things people say in threads.
> 
> I re-read the blog in question, and it seems to me that the big point wasn't so much that the blogger was having problems, he was having customer service issues. You can't ignore the fact that there was something going on at his house. However if 90% of his recordings are now black screens, that's something more than the problems we've been reporting here. Someone at DIRECTV should have taken note of that.
> 
> They could have sent a tech, for example. They could have sent a replacement. They could have taken him seriously, which he didn't think they did. I think that's the real point. He didn't have a successful customer service experience.


I do agree, bad customer service. However, the blogger also just accepted what the CSR tells him and leaves it at that. That, personally, is not being an informed consumer. I *never* believe anything any CSR from any company tells me without a grain of salt at the least. I personally would have just asked for a tech to come out and fix, end of story. Yea the tech could be bad (as we see daily) but no way would I take the word of a CSR just trying to get you off the phone with the "yea it sucks you have a problem, no fix, here's a credit now go away so I can go get a smoke break".

DirecTV customer service certainly is to blame here but please, be a smarter consumer and you won't get snowed by bad customer service.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

I think the bloggers' biggest issue was with the HR2x software upgrade, specifically the last NR, which has apparently been withdrawn.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/wp-trackback.php?p=9171

You can be a savvy customer, but that won't fix the software problem and replace your two weeks of missed recordings. It only takes a couple of missed episodes of Lost or MNF to create a very unhappy customer.

DVRs are information "appliances," not PCs. If you are going to upgrade the software in a consumer product, you need to be sure that it happens in the background and the users don't notice. Getting and keeping the core functionality working is job one.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> I do agree, bad customer service. However, the blogger also just accepted what the CSR tells him and leaves it at that. That, personally, is not being an informed consumer. I *never* believe anything any CSR from any company tells me without a grain of salt at the least. I personally would have just asked for a tech to come out and fix, end of story. Yea the tech could be bad (as we see daily) but no way would I take the word of a CSR just trying to get you off the phone with the "yea it sucks you have a problem, no fix, here's a credit now go away so I can go get a smoke break".
> 
> DirecTV customer service certainly is to blame here but please, be a smarter consumer and you won't get snowed by bad customer service.


Bon,

Actually, if you read the article again he mentions that his wife has also been involved with customer service on this issue. He also called got an answer and then called and got a "supervisor". What more was he really going to hear? At some point you realize you're wasting your time and breath and just give up...in his case he wrong an article as well.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

bonscott87 said:


> I do agree, bad customer service. However, the blogger also just accepted what the CSR tells him and leaves it at that. That, personally, is not being an informed consumer. I *never* believe anything any CSR from any company tells me without a grain of salt at the least. I personally would have just asked for a tech to come out and fix, end of story. Yea the tech could be bad (as we see daily) but no way would I take the word of a CSR just trying to get you off the phone with the "yea it sucks you have a problem, no fix, here's a credit now go away so I can go get a smoke break".
> 
> DirecTV customer service certainly is to blame here but please, be a smarter consumer and you won't get snowed by bad customer service.


Your point is valid, but why should the customer be "more informed"? And what exactly do you mean in by that anyway. Most of us here probably have jobs that allow us to troll these forums, and we probably do the same with most major purchases (cars .. etc).

But why should that mean that the "average" customer should do so? That's not how customer service should work. Blaming the customer because D* contracts with lazy installers and then hires lazy phones jockeys isn't the answer.


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## kiljoy (Apr 29, 2008)

bonscott87 said:


> I do agree, bad customer service. However, the blogger also just accepted what the CSR tells him and leaves it at that. That, personally, is not being an informed consumer. I *never* believe anything any CSR from any company tells me without a grain of salt at the least. I personally would have just asked for a tech to come out and fix, end of story. Yea the tech could be bad (as we see daily) but no way would I take the word of a CSR just trying to get you off the phone with the "yea it sucks you have a problem, no fix, here's a credit now go away so I can go get a smoke break".
> 
> DirecTV customer service certainly is to blame here but please, be a smarter consumer and you won't get snowed by bad customer service.


My sister knows nothing about the Tivo-powered R10s in her house. She does know that she's never missed a program ever since she got one. She knows she's never had to reset or reboot the receiver, _ever_. And I know that if she had more than one missed recording or ever had random reboots or lost data, she's throw it away and consider it garbage. She wouldn't research why it did what it did, _she would simply know that it did *not* that which is was supposed to._

Now I'm tech-savvy and do a lot of research. I know things don't always work perfectly (of course, my DVR40s always have, and so did the SAT-T60s before them) and I find out what went wrong by Googling when I have a tech problem.

Do you think there are more people like me subscribing to DirecTV or more people like my sister?

Tony


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

kiljoy said:


> My sister knows nothing about the Tivo-powered R10s in her house. She does know that she's never missed a program ever since she got one. She knows she's never had to reset or reboot the receiver, _ever_. And I know that if she had more than one missed recording or ever had random reboots or lost data, she's throw it away and consider it garbage. She wouldn't research why it did what it did, _she would simply know that it did *not* that which is was supposed to._
> 
> Now I'm tech-savvy and do a lot of research. I know things don't always work perfectly (of course, my DVR40s always have, and so did the SAT-T60s before them) and I find out what went wrong by Googling when I have a tech problem.
> 
> ...


There are more people like you who don't throw things in the proverbial garbage at the first sign of trouble. If your sister were to actually cancel service because of one system glitch then she's not going to be happy with any service from any of the providers.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

rudeney said:


> I see D* in much the same way. They are trying to sell cutting-edge technology to "mainstream" consumers who don't understand that the price for this may include the occasional problem. On top of that, D* sees customer service as a liability instead of an asset, so those customers re met with disdain and a lack of sympathy when they call with for help. This is really a recipe for disaster. MBZ went through the same issues and their solution was to work on it from two angles. One, test the technology more before releasing it on the customers and two, create a more proactive environment for assisting customers. D* may need to learn this lesson the hard way, but when they do, it will be best for all of us.


FYI, a DVR was cutting Edge Technology in 1999. It is now about 9 years later and they should have had time to get it right.


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## groove93 (Jun 10, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> There are more people like you who don't throw things in the proverbial garbage at the first sign of trouble. Hate to say it, but if your sister actually cancelled service because of one system glitch then she's not going to be happy with any service from any of the providers.


This is no different than a person shelling out 800 bucks on a new computer because they think just because their old one was infected with a lil virus, it's now useless. I see this all the time. "My computer is running slow, I need to get a new one", or "I have no sound on my computer, I need to get a new one." This is the mindset of the average Joe and Jane.

Imagine what would happen if people weren't as knowledgeable with their cars. "I have a flat tire, I need a new car". Think times are bad now, Imagine junk yards full of Cars that are still usable.

People are going to call a CSR for service for a product they purchased and expect it to work. It is their hard earned money that purchased this device. Either they get it fixed through various channels, or expect the device to be replaced. On average, Joe and Jane are not going to log into DBStalk and expect answers 12 different answers from 40 different people. If it takes 15 minutes on the phone with person who doen't know how to cut and paste a file into a folder, then don't expect them to climb up a ladder and re-align a dish.

My two cents.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Lee L said:


> FYI, a DVR was cutting Edge Technology in 1999. It is now about 9 years later and they should have had time to get it right.


Maybe an SD DVR, but not HD using MPEG4 with SATA, eSATA, 100BaseT, HDMI, HDCP, uPnP, etc. Having all of those things in one box is very much cutting edge technology.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Lee L said:


> I am glad to see this issue getting coverage though. I always figured that it just took the right people having it happen a few times and DirecTV would have to devote more resources to this issue. Given the intermittent nature of the issue, the only way they will get it fixed is by long and careful observation. I know it is hard, but they have to keep working on it.


Well I was going to reply to a post on page 1, but since you have an Xbox Live GT in your sig, it's more appropriate if I reply to your post. Sorry if this has come up on later pages.

I was going to make the comparison to the the Xbox 360... Not sure how many of you know its ongoing story of hardware problems (resulting in the red ring of death, aka RRoD) that were first denied, then ignored, and finally after the crescendo rose to global levels, MS finally admitted to "hardware problems" and took a one-time $1-billion charge to set things straight. Warranties were extended from 3 months to 3 years (for specific hardware problems, 1 year for other issues). This started several years ago, and as far as I can tell, the problems continue (I suspect due to the large installation base - Not sure of Xbox 360s based on newer board design - there have been at least 3, with more on the way - are really that much better). Anyway, the point is that until it looked like it might hurt sales, give Sony an edge, or result in lawsuits, MS seemed to do nothing... It seems (to me) that they could have been much more proactive in addressing the problem.

So what's taking D* so long? Is it denial, or has the public outcry and media attention not risen to a level that D* feels they need to worry about it? If that's the case, it seems that more media attention is needed... Even if it's just a blog - which do get picked up by the nationals as ideas for stories from time to time.

That being said, so far I'm happy with my HR21... But I also read about the RRoD for many months before eventually being greeted by my own RRoD. I was not so much upset with the hardware failure, as I was with the way MS handled the problem.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

rudeney said:


> Maybe an SD DVR, but not HD using MPEG4 with SATA, eSATA, 100BaseT, HDMI, HDCP, uPnP, etc. Having all of those things in one box is very much cutting edge technology.


No, it's really not...seriously, you can try to make the box as complex as you like it's a dedicated computer doing things that have been done for many years. I'm not saying it's not difficult, but it's nothing really all that new at least not in computer terms.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

justlgi said:


> Your point is valid, but why should the customer be "more informed"? And what exactly do you mean in by that anyway. Most of us here probably have jobs that allow us to troll these forums, and we probably do the same with most major purchases (cars .. etc).
> 
> But why should that mean that the "average" customer should do so? That's not how customer service should work. Blaming the customer because D* contracts with lazy installers and then hires lazy phones jockeys isn't the answer.


Of course I'm not saying that's how customer service *should* work. But then again I live in the real world and I understand how customer service *really* works in this world we live in.

Yes, people should be "more informed" and by that I mean they shouldn't always trust what customer service tells them. People that blindly do are just like the sheep that blindly jump off the cliff. Unfortunately many (if not most) people are like that and *all* the companies take advantage of that. Be informed and don't be taken advantage of. Too many of my friends are the same way and it's unfortunate. Someone doesn't need to be trolling these forums all day to be more informed and not be taken advantage of and not take the constant BS customer service at these companies put out. And frankly if I feel I'm getting the BS then I will go online to do a bit of research. It's not that hard.

In no way does that make bad customer service right or take D* off the hook in this case.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Lee L said:


> It is now about 9 years later and they should have had time to get it right.


One of the downsides of clean slating.

DIRECTV has clearly put too much emphasis on the non-DVR aspects of the HR2x line (and not the ones that they introduced years ago like an expandable whole home DVR and DirecTV2Go).


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> So the thing is, that this has turned into a thread about the things people say in threads.
> 
> I re-read the blog in question, and it seems to me that the big point wasn't so much that the blogger was having problems, he was having customer service issues. You can't ignore the fact that there was something going on at his house. However if 90% of his recordings are now black screens, that's something more than the problems we've been reporting here. Someone at DIRECTV should have taken note of that.
> 
> They could have sent a tech, for example. They could have sent a replacement. They could have taken him seriously, which he didn't think they did. I think that's the real point. He didn't have a successful customer service experience.


Hi Stuart. Glad to be aboard. I hope the beta stuff improves our experience.

Wow, what a load of responses to this piece. I wish I saw them on the ZDNet talkbacks themselves, they would probably get more public notice by other media outlets, as helpful as this forum is.

I will certainly say I invested a lot of money to get my dish upgrade properly aligned and installed, and my DirecTivo reception and performance prior to these upgrades was near flawless. After the 5LNB went in to replace the dual LNB, when we only had the HR-20, the legacy Directivo in the bedrom was operating with over 90 percent signal strength on both its tuners and on most of the transponders. I think the worst we got on a single transponder was 88 percent. The tech, who I hired independtly of DirecTV and who also installed my FTA dish and my OTA antenna, said the reception from the DTV sats was as good as it was gonna get, we even had a tree cut down so we could get total sky coverage. The HR-20 and the HR-21 also get very strong signal. I run diags on them all the time.

I really don't think its an installation issue. We ran all new coax for the HD install with new LNB switch and all that jazz.

My opinion is that DirecTV seriously needs to improve the customer service experience and make the products work. Not everyone is a systems engineer by profession like myself and is willing to go underground and try to remediate the problems on their own. People are just going to get really pissed and DTV is going to lose a ton of customers.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

:welcome_s Jason Perlow!

It's a pleasure to have you here. 

Folks, I invited Mr. Perlow to join us... he is the author of the blog we've been discussing (obviously) and I'm sure the brain trust here can give him a much better experience than he's had.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> I was not so much upset with the hardware failure, as I was with the way MS handled the problem.


I'm sure that is why any issues with D* hardware are such polarizing topics as they are. We are talking about Directv, the so-called "leader" in satellite TV. People have high expectations because they figure D* knows what they are doing. Couple that with very poor customer service and it gets downright unbelievable.

HD+DVR=Tech Geek
Tech Geek+Industry Leader=High Expectations
High Expectations+Faulty equipment=Frustrations
Frustrations+Very Poor customer service/relations=Anger
Anger+Public Forum=:soapbox: 
Failure to fix the problem(s)=Breeding ground for haters.
Haters+Haters=Mob

As you can see, no good can become of it until D* fixes the problems.

More importantly though, Directv needs a complete overhaul in their customer service. Calling in an issue and talking with a CSR is much like playing Russian Roulette, but with 5 rounds in the cylinder. 
I truly believe that the issue with the original blogger wouldn't have been so bad and he probably would have gotten over it rather quickly, but got magnified 10x by the cavalier attitudes of the CSR and so-called Supervisor, which are a direct reflection on the company.

If D* would take the time to address public relations in the public forum from time to time, I think it would go a long way in quelling alot of the uprisings we are seeing lately. IMHO, D*'s public relations has got to be the absolute worse thing about them. If I were a board member or major shareholder, that would have to be #1 on my "Fix it List".

Here hoping that the 0x0254 will be the fix of all fixes. Directv could use some good press for a change. Then perhaps they can work on DLB or BTDLB. Do that and I'll officially become a D* fanboy!

Regards,
Frank


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> Hi Stuart. Glad to be aboard. I hope the beta stuff improves our experience.
> 
> Wow, what a load of responses to this piece. I wish I saw them on the ZDNet talkbacks themselves, they would probably get more public notice by other media outlets, as helpful as this forum is.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum.

Your observations are spot on. But get ready, you are going to be amazed at the DirecTV apologists in this forum. This box should at the very least record accurately and the sound should match the mouths of the actors. But it doesn't and it hasn't.

Don't take my word for it. Look back in this forum at least two years and you'll see the exact same audio and recording problems as are complained about now - inaccurate recordings and audio stuttering and mismatch. It is shameful that these basics have not been fixed yet. Go ahead, search back through a couple of years.


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## Maverickster (Sep 20, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I'm more surprised that the tech-press and bloggers haven't had more reports on the success of the CE program, resulting in what is essentially a reinvention of the DVR Plus software.
> 
> There's no way I would call DIRECTV's response to user problems cavalier. Do you see Comcast or Cablevision or Dish creating public beta programs with the depth, breadth and level of involvement that DIRECTV has? And are you aware of how much the DVR has changed since DIRECTV started the Cutting Edge program? That's not cavalier. That's investing in their customers.


Drew, no offense to the CE program or those who participate in it, but it's clearly not working. Their most direct competitor -- Dish -- has a DVR that is pretty universally lauded and liked. DirecTV has this POS. It seems to me that DirecTV has decided to use the CE program in a way it wasn't intended to be used -- as a replacement for, rather than as supportive to, a competent staff of software engineers. The CE program can only be as good as the engineering department is. Arguably, the CE program is counterproductive since without it, perhaps the DirecTV engineers might be able to focus more on (and do a better job with) core functionality. In other words:

DirecTV's Incompetent Software Engineering Department + CE < Dish Nework's Competent Sofware Engineering Department.

My .02.

--Mav

P.S. As we've previously discussed, I don't want to hear "give them a break, it's hard". After having nearly 2 years to get it right, that's a BS excuse; particularly since both TiVo and Dish Network don't have these same problems.

P.P.S. To echo Ken's comments a couple of pages back, when the DVR works as it's supposed to, I LOVE being a DirecTV subscriber; BUT, it really is an absolute shame that such a potentially great product is so hampered by problems at the two points of contact for most consumers -- the DVR and Customer Service. How DirecTV can continue to miss this very simple point escapes me -- you can have the best service/product in the world, but if the means of getting it to the customer base is fundamentally broken, it's useless.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

The joys of a national company.. Some good some bad.. much easier to handle a small local company..
so many different enviorments..


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> I was going to make the comparison to the the Xbox 360...


My personal comparison is the PS3 to the HR-2x series. I acquired them at about the same time for about the same money. Both have similar technology components inside (HDMI, networking, SATA, etc.) and dissimilar ones based upon their specific functions (DVR vs. blu-ray for example). Both have been receiving software updates roughly once a month.

The huge difference between them though is that the PS3 has never frozen, slowed down, or failed to perform its core function (play disc sourced media content) unlike the HR-2x series. To me, that is the expectation level I have for computer based products. The software is updated transparently to make improvements, not cause more issues in the field. DirecTV's internal testing needs to be robust enough (like Sony's) to catch any major problems before customers get frustrated.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Jason,

If 90% of your recordings are failing on both boxes there's something seriously wrong with your setup somewhere. Have you tried replacing the receivers?

To the rest of the dbstalk naysayers around here,

I really wish you'd stop calling me and the rest of the helpful people on this forum apologists for trying to get to the bottom of someone's problems instead of ranting about them and calling DirecTV complete "jackasses" alongside the rest of the naysayers. I want my TV to work. If it doesn't, I try to find the problem and fix it or I move along. I certainly don't ***** and moan 'til I'm blue in the face and hope that after two years of issues some knight in shining armor is going to gallop up to my house on his white horse to save the day. Not gonna happen. Let's be productive instead of whining about it, _that's _what these forums are about. DirecTV is well-aware of the issues that exist with their equipment. Don't denigrate, participate... and if you don't want to, that's fine too; there's other choices... whether you like them or not is another debate altogether, but there _are _other choices.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> Wow, what a load of responses to this piece. I wish I saw them on the ZDNet talkbacks themselves, they would probably get more public notice by other media outlets, as helpful as this forum is.


While that may be true, I have to say I don't really like how the ZDNet system works. Having to click on every post to see it as opposed to this type of forum, where it's all laid out to see, makes it cumbersome and time consuming. Unless I missed an option or something. I almost didn't read any of the "talkbacks" at all because of that.

Maybe a vBulletin type of forum would be better. Just my opinion.

Regards,
Frank

PS, welcome to the board Jason! It's a great tool.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Let's be productive instead of whining about it, _that's _what these forums are about. DirecTV is well-aware of the issues that exist with their equipment. Don't denigrate, participate...


Well said, Soup Nazi... If only I could say it that well myself :lol:

|
|
V


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well said, Soup Nazi... If only I could say it that well myself :lol:
> 
> |
> |
> V


 How's that old saying go again... Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery. :lol:


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Jason,
> 
> If 90% of your recordings are failing on both boxes there's something seriously wrong with your setup somewhere. Have you tried replacing the receivers?
> 
> ...


+1 
Believe it or not there are some of us with ones that work great


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> Jason,
> 
> If 90% of your recordings are failing on both boxes there's something seriously wrong with your setup somewhere. Have you tried replacing the receivers?


DirecTV says I don't need new ones and will not replace them.

Let me qualify the "90 percent" thing. 90 percent of the HIGH DEFINITION recordings are failing on the HR-20, with a significantly smaller percentage failing on the HR-21. However, this is probably due to the fact that the HR-20 is the workhorse because it lives in the bedroom where my OTA coax comes down from the roof, and we record a lot more shows on it. It is also summer where most of the network shows we watch are on hiatus, so the Living Room HR-21 is not getting as much of a workout at this time.

That being said, the recordings on both boxes that are failing are all Hi-Def programs off DirectTV's HD channels -- not the OTA ones. In the last few days, we have pulled Hi-Def programs from DirecTV's HD channels off the To-Do list and replaced them with Standard Def, and they work fine. The OTA stuff I do record in HD -- mainly PBS stuff like NOVA and such -- work fine. So whatever is happening seems to be isolated to the HD satellite tuner code.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> Jason,
> 
> If 90% of your recordings are failing on both boxes there's something seriously wrong with your setup somewhere. Have you tried replacing the receivers?
> 
> ...


Other choices are of course available, if you're willing to pay the termination fee left on the DirecTV contract. Some of the other choices don't involve 2-year commitments, either.

As a side note, my system downloaded the 254 update this morning with no problems noted, plus MediaShare still works.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> Let me qualify the "90 percent" thing. 90 percent of the HIGH DEFINITION recordings are failing on the HR-20 (...)
> That being said, the recordings on both boxes that are failing are all Hi-Def programs off DirectTV's HD channels -- not the OTA ones.


If you happen to recall, what programs and what channels? Also, have you tried recording the same programs on the HR21?


----------



## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> DirecTV says I don't need new ones and will not replace them.
> 
> Let me qualify the "90 percent" thing. 90 percent of the HIGH DEFINITION recordings are failing on the HR-20, with a significantly smaller percentage failing on the HR-21. However, this is probably due to the fact that the HR-20 is the workhorse because it lives in the bedroom where my OTA coax comes down from the roof, and we record a lot more shows on it. It is also summer where most of the network shows we watch are on hiatus, so the Living Room HR-21 is not getting as much of a workout at this time.
> 
> That being said, the recordings on both boxes that are failing are all Hi-Def programs off DirectTV's HD channels -- not the OTA ones. In the last few days, we have pulled Hi-Def programs from DirecTV's HD channels off the To-Do list and replaced them with Standard Def, and they work fine. The OTA stuff I do record in HD -- mainly PBS stuff like NOVA and such -- work fine. So whatever is happening seems to be isolated to the HD satellite tuner code.


Have you tried replacing the BBCs on the HR20 box? What's the rest of your setup look like? Slimline dish I assume with just these four tuners (2 to each box) or do you have a multiswitch in the mix here somewhere too? This could also be a potential culprit.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> DirecTV is well-aware of the issues that exist with their equipment.


They've had issues ever since they started releasing their own hardware. 
Anybody remember the *H10* that reboots *every time *the phone rings?

It's now 5 years later and they still have issues with their equipment.

Glib platitudes about 'participating' aren't going to fix bad corporate management.

Just ask GM.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Redlinetire said:


> They've had issues ever since they started releasing their own hardware.
> Anybody remember the *H10* that reboots *every time *the phone rings?
> 
> It's now 5 years later and they still have issues with their equipment.
> ...


Ok, fine we get it. Dear Lord, we get it. :beatdeadhorse:

Let's dedicate the rest of this thread to helping Jason, since he's here now and the thread was started by his article and the problems that prompted it. I'm pretty sure that rehashing the same debate that's been going on for 140 posts isn't going to change anything.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Agreed. I'm asking all our users to focus all their energy on helping one of our newest members... there's plenty of time for the other discussions when we've proven ourselves helpful.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

jjohns said:


> But get ready, you are going to be amazed at the DirecTV apologists in this forum.


You'll also be amazed at the number of members who's whole lives revolve around *****ing and labeling.

They actually get pissed at others that don't have the same problems they do. Most of the time I think they'd rather have all members experience the problems they have instead of getting their problems fixed, because then they'd have more people to share in their miserable existence.

Trust me, you'll be amazed.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> Have you tried replacing the BBCs on the HR20 box? What's the rest of your setup look like? Slimline dish I assume with just these four tuners (2 to each box) or do you have a multiswitch in the mix here somewhere too? This could also be a potential culprit.


We used to have a multiswitch with the dual LNB but now we are using the one that was built into the 5LNB dish. So I assume that is the "slimline".

I have not tried replacing the BBCs. How would you go about ordering those? doesn't Tech Support have to make the determination to send them to you?


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> We used to have a multiswitch with the dual LNB but now we are using the one that was built into the 5LNB dish. So I assume that is the "slimline".
> 
> I have not tried replacing the BBCs. How would you go about ordering those? doesn't Tech Support have to make the determination to send them to you?


No, actually you can order them off of DirecTV's website once you log into your account, IIRC. I believe they're under "Kits and other equipment" and they're free to buy and ship. If you can find them on there you can call and request them too - just tell them you're having trouble with some HD channels and would like new BBCs. This is just one possibility and it's free to try.


----------



## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Dr. Booda said:


> My personal comparison is the PS3 to the HR-2x series. I acquired them at about the same time for about the same money. Both have similar technology components inside (HDMI, networking, SATA, etc.) and dissimilar ones based upon their specific functions (DVR vs. blu-ray for example). Both have been receiving software updates roughly once a month.
> 
> The huge difference between them though is that the PS3 has never frozen, slowed down, or failed to perform its core function (play disc sourced media content) unlike the HR-2x series. To me, that is the expectation level I have for computer based products. The software is updated transparently to make improvements, not cause more issues in the field. DirecTV's internal testing needs to be robust enough (like Sony's) to catch any major problems before customers get frustrated.


This is 100% the point I was just going to make. My PS3 is also routinely updated like everyone elses. I cannot recall of a time where something that was fixed or implemented is now broken on the PS3.

I also read the blog in question. Everything he wrote about the history of the HR2x is spot on as far as I can tell. I also agree with Stuart that customer service apparently is the real culprit.

90% black recordings is unbelievable to me. So much so that I agree it may not be software updates, but rather a hardware issue. I have had 7 RBR's since the NR a week ago but never black recordings. OK wait. Some recordings were black when the unit froze, but everything worked properly after the RBR.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Jason Perlow said:


> We used to have a multiswitch with the dual LNB but now we are using the one that was built into the 5LNB dish. So I assume that is the "slimline".
> 
> I have not tried replacing the BBCs. How would you go about ordering those? doesn't Tech Support have to make the determination to send them to you?


By the way, another thing on the 90 percent... SOME of our DIRECTV stuff WAS recording in HD. I am unable to discern a particular pattern of problems isolating programs to specific channels or transponder groups. I just haven't been home enough to do significant amounts of analysis as this was only recently brought to my attention in the last two weeks and the issue has gotten worse. I spend 4 days out of the week on the road, so Rachel will probably jump in and give you a more detailed report of exactly what seems to be failing.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

gcisko said:


> This is 100% the point I was just going to make. My PS3 is also routinely updated like everyone elses. I cannot recall of a time where something that was fixed or implemented is now broken on the PS3.


I understand your point, but there was the issue of the last PS3 update (2.40) that was halted and redone (2.41) because it bricked a few boxes and caused other issues.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> DirecTV says I don't need new ones and will not replace them.
> 
> Let me qualify the "90 percent" thing. 90 percent of the HIGH DEFINITION recordings are failing on the HR-20, with a significantly smaller percentage failing on the HR-21. However, this is probably due to the fact that the HR-20 is the workhorse because it lives in the bedroom where my OTA coax comes down from the roof, and we record a lot more shows on it. It is also summer where most of the network shows we watch are on hiatus, so the Living Room HR-21 is not getting as much of a workout at this time.
> 
> That being said, the recordings on both boxes that are failing are all Hi-Def programs off DirectTV's HD channels -- not the OTA ones. In the last few days, we have pulled Hi-Def programs from DirecTV's HD channels off the To-Do list and replaced them with Standard Def, and they work fine. The OTA stuff I do record in HD -- mainly PBS stuff like NOVA and such -- work fine. So whatever is happening seems to be isolated to the HD satellite tuner code.


It's got to be a set-up problem somewhere. I've had my HR20 for over a year, and it has never had a blank recording, HD or otherwise. I'm not exaggerating, not even _one_. (Mind you, I got my unit in May of '07, after many of the original kinks had been worked out.) I'd say the biggest issue I've had with it is that about 10-15% of the recordings had the audio slightly out of sync, but that seems to have been resolved a few months back. There must be a solution to the issues you're having.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> By the way, another thing on the 90 percent... SOME of our DIRECTV stuff WAS recording in HD. I am unable to discern a particular pattern of problems isolating programs to specific channels or transponder groups. I just haven't been home enough to do significant amounts of analysis as this was only recently brought to my attention in the last two weeks and the issue has gotten worse. I spend 4 days out of the week on the road, so Rachel will probably jump in and give you a more detailed report of exactly what seems to be failing.


If the BBC replacement doesn't help your issue the next thing I'd do is get my LNBs replaced. Even though your tech said that levels are fine that doesn't mean that your issues aren't intermittent and happening at times other than when you pull up the signal meter.


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

Obviously this is an engineering problem. This guy keeps complaining about customer service which has nothing to do with engineering. Please understand Engineers and Customer Reps are very different people and different departments. 

(Also engineers make 10 times more than customer reps and yet all those mad customers are yelling and cussing at csrs while its the engineers who are responsible for all this mess. And some installers.)


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> DirecTV says I don't need new ones and will not replace them.
> 
> Let me qualify the "90 percent" thing. 90 percent of the HIGH DEFINITION recordings are failing on the HR-20, with a significantly smaller percentage failing on the HR-21. However, this is probably due to the fact that the HR-20 is the workhorse because it lives in the bedroom where my OTA coax comes down from the roof, and we record a lot more shows on it. It is also summer where most of the network shows we watch are on hiatus, so the Living Room HR-21 is not getting as much of a workout at this time.
> 
> That being said, the recordings on both boxes that are failing are all Hi-Def programs off DirectTV's HD channels -- not the OTA ones. In the last few days, we have pulled Hi-Def programs from DirecTV's HD channels off the To-Do list and replaced them with Standard Def, and they work fine. The OTA stuff I do record in HD -- mainly PBS stuff like NOVA and such -- work fine. So whatever is happening seems to be isolated to the HD satellite tuner code.


Have you checked the signal strengths of both tuners??? Maybe you have one that is not working and always trying to be used to do the recordings? What you describe is definately not something that is HR20 specific.

Also have you tried watching a live HD program so you know it works, then hit the record button to record it. Then play it from the LIST. If you can watch it live there is no way you have bad adapters and that is most likely why they will not swap them.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> Jason,
> 
> If 90% of your recordings are failing on both boxes there's something seriously wrong with your setup somewhere. Have you tried replacing the receivers?
> 
> ...


Tcusta,

That's all well and good...but there is plenty of denigration going on when someone does have a valid complaint as well. Calling them whiners and then asking not to be tagged with a name yourself is a bit hypocrital...don't you think? There are people on both sides of this issue who choose to make personal attacks or belittling remarks about the threads rather than help. Sadly, some of the folks engaging in this wear dbstalk.com "merit" badges. Personally, I think the rancor on both sides should stop. Discuss the issues. If it's an issue you're not interested in or bothers you for some other reason skip that thread.

Also, you make a statement that DirecTV knows of all the issues...that's one of the complaints...how would consumers know this? Calling customer service certainly isn't going to get them a straight answer. The issues threads here are akin to a suggestion box...there is no feedback. I can tell you that there are more than a few people frustrated with software being released despite many posts listing issues in the CE threads and in here.

===========

Jason,

The more information you can give everyone here about your setup, signal strengths, what channels, shows, etc the better. While there are some software and hardware problems there are a lot of bright people here that have figured out workarounds or can give you some potential fixes. A lot of times the problem relates to the dish alignment.

Here's some things you can do:

1. Hold the INFO key for 3 seconds and you should go to the system menu. You can then perform a system test. If anything fails let us know.

2. Perform a signal test and type in the readings here for all of your satellites.

3. After the signal test you can click to something on the same menu called signal meters. Run this for a bit as it is the only way to make sure both tuners are operating properly at the same time. If one is getting a reading and the other isn't substantially similar that may be the issue.

4. (this should really be 1...make sure all of the connections are tight. The F connectors on cables can be hard to get nice and snug by hand and can work their way loose relatively easily...snug them up.

5. If you are still experiencing problems try reversing the A & B Satellite feeds.

If it is a faulty receiver there are plenty of people that can suggest ways to clearly communicate that to DirecTV so you can get a replacement.

I hope we all can be of help.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

ironwood said:


> Obviously this is an engineering problem. This guy keeps complaining about customer service which has nothing to do with engineering. Please understand Engineers and Customer Reps are very different people and different departments.
> 
> (Also engineers make 10 times more than customer reps and yet all those mad customers are yelling and cussing at csrs while its the engineers who are responsible for all this mess. And some installers.)


Its an engineering problem as to why the setup isn't working correctly, but I don't think we have isolated that the infrastructure (wiring, dish, connectors) are the root cause and not a faulty software stack.

The customer service issue is totally separate. However both issues combined wil certainly create big problems for the company. They both need to be addressed.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I understand your point, but there was the issue of the last PS3 update (2.40) that was halted and redone (2.41) because it bricked a few boxes and caused other issues.


Awesome!!! I missed that one. I downloaded 2.41 last weekend.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Rachel is taking screenshots, I will have them up on Flickr shortly.



Ken S said:


> Tcusta,
> 
> ===========
> 
> ...


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Tcusta,
> 
> That's all well and good...but there is plenty of denigration going on when someone does have a valid complaint as well. Calling them whiners and then asking not to be tagged with a name yourself is a bit hypocrital...don't you think? There are people on both sides of this issue who choose to make personal attacks or belittling remarks about the threads rather than help. Sadly, some of the folks engaging in this wear dbstalk.com "merit" badges. Personally, I think the rancor on both sides should stop. Discuss the issues. If it's an issue you're not interested in or bothers you for some other reason skip that thread.
> 
> Also, you make a statement that DirecTV knows of all the issues...that's one of the complaints...how would consumers know this? Calling customer service certainly isn't going to get them a straight answer. The issues threads here are akin to a suggestion box...there is no feedback. I can tell you that there are more than a few people frustrated with software being released despite many posts listing issues in the CE threads and in here.


If all a person does is complain over and over throughout multiple threads and not ask for some kind of resolution to their problem from the good people here who are capable of helping then, yes, they are whiners. If they're hoping that magically their whining here will get DirecTV to change something they're barking up the wrong tree - people respond to constructive criticisms, not meaningless whining. There are a lot of people around here that are doing nothing more than whining. When my two year old daughter cries and doesn't tell me what she wants in a calm, collected manner, she's whining. She's starting to realize that more good comes from explaining what she wants in a calm way than sobbing and interjecting meaningless words here and there.

Go ahead and call me an apologist. I call myself someone who's satisfied with my TV and wonders why anyone would stick with it if it sucks so bad... life's too short, Ken. After all, it's only TV.


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> Its an engineering problem as to why the setup isn't working correctly, but I don't think we have isolated that the infrastructure (wiring, dish, connectors) are the root cause and not a faulty software stack.
> 
> The customer service issue is totally separate. However both issues combined wil certainly create big problems for the company. They both need to be addressed.


DirecTV is No 1 is customer satisfaction amoung satellite and cable companies 7 years in a row.

From your article it seems like you were mad at customer service and even called them names. Also you called them rude while you are the rude one. Keep your facts straight please.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

ironwood said:


> DirecTV is No 1 is customer satisfaction amoung satellite and cable companies 7 years in a row.
> 
> From your article it seems like you were mad at customer service and even called them names. Also you called them rude while you are the rude one. Keep your facts straight please.


I can assure you, they were rude and completely unhelpful. And I'm not talking about the level 1 customer service rep prior to escalation, I'm talking about the technical service manager. I wish I had tape recorded the entire conversation.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

ironwood said:


> DirecTV is No 1 is customer satisfaction amoung satellite and cable companies 7 years in a row.
> 
> From your article it seems like you were mad at customer service and even called them names. Also you called them rude while you are the rude one. Keep your facts straight please.





Jason Perlow said:


> I can assure you, they were rude and completely unhelpful. And I'm not talking about the level 1 customer service rep prior to escalation, I'm talking about the technical service manager. I wish I had tape recorded the entire conversation.


You can't say you weren't warned about the responses you'll get at this site for making a negative statement about D*.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

raott said:


> You can't say you weren't warned about the responses you'll get at this site for making a negative statement about D*.


I was born in Queens, NY and live in NJ. My skin is made of asbestos :lol:


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> I was born in Queens, NY and live in NJ. My skin is made of asbestos :lol:


You get both sides here...
But you also won't find a better set of "problem solvers" than this group.. Unfortunatly we can't fix the CSRs :lol: 
Believe it or not there are good running HR2xs


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> We used to have a multiswitch with the dual LNB but now we are using the one that was built into the 5LNB dish. So I assume that is the "slimline".
> 
> I have not tried replacing the BBCs. How would you go about ordering those? doesn't Tech Support have to make the determination to send them to you?


If nothing else, swap the ones from the HR21 with the ones from the HR20. If you determine that to be the root cause, unfortunately you're going to have to call customer service again.


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

raott said:


> You can't say you weren't warned about the responses you'll get at this site for making a negative statement about D*.


How is this helpful? Perhaps you have never been on the other side of the "fence" or maybe you have but were just the best darned CSR ever. It doesn't matter, Jason has an issue that has not been solved. I admit I am guilty of not reading the blog, but I have run up against a bad CSR too, (I know it's hard to believe).

It's naive to believe that all CSR's know every detail and problem with a given piece of equipment especially when there are so many variables attached; like different boxes, software versions, wiring, dishes, packages, BBC's, line of sight issues, etc. HOWEVER, Jason was talking to a person who should have been able to answer the questions or at least attempt to diagnose like the helpful people here.

Most of us are techies and understand the complexities of diagnosing a system with so many parts that ALL can have an effect on the outcome. The CSR on the other end of the phone has a responsibility to his/her employer to solve the problem quickly and at the lowest cost. This does not mean to screw the customer, but to follow the protocol and get the problem solved.

I've been on the other side and had to deal with unreasonable customers (not saying Jason was) but it is truly difficult to keep your composure while trying to tell the upset customer that he/she is wrong or you can not help.

Anyway, I guess this wasn't helpful either. I gets irritating reading all the name calling and bantering back and forth. I wish Jason the best of luck and has an experience like I have had with D and the HR-20. I know that the people on this board will most likely find a solution to his problem. There have been some great suggestions so far.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> If nothing else, swap the ones from the HR21 with the ones from the HR20. If you determine that to be the root cause, unfortunately you're going to have to call customer service again.


Good idea. One other thought... if you've got that installer's phone number you can give him a ring and ask nicely for a couple of BBCs... I'm sure they have a boatload and they're likely free to them too.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

You can always order bbc's for free from DirecTV

http://directv.qrs1.net/bbc/bbcForm.jsp

They'll show up in a day or two.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

say-what said:


> You can always order bbc's for free from DirecTV
> 
> http://directv.qrs1.net/bbc/bbcForm.jsp
> 
> They'll show up in a day or two.


Ah ha! There's the link. Thanks, say-what.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

jgrade said:


> How is this helpful? Perhaps you have never been on the other side of the "fence" or maybe you have but were just the best darned CSR ever.


I think you are misinterpreting my post. My post had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of CSRs.

My point was an observation that he was told in an earlier post (#128) to be prepared for the onslaught of attacks (that unfortunately has become so typical for this site) when making critical remarks about D* --- and sure enough, that is exactly what happened -- starting with ironwood's post.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Jason,

Welcome.

I see you mentioned OTA and nobody else has brought this up yet: Do you have your OTA diplexed into your coax from the satellite dish? If so this could very well be the root of the problem since you cannot diplex in OTA signals anymore with the new 5 LNB dish as the OTA signals use the same frequency as the new HD channels that come from the new KA sats. This would also explain why it's only HD recording that fails for you.

So check to make sure you don't have anything diplexed.

After that, a bad BBC can definately cause this same problem. So swap with the BBC's you have on the HR20 that seems to work better.

The next installation type issue would be a bad LNB. I had one of those and I lost the majority of my HD channels, but only when the tempurature got below 30 degrees. I've seen others with the same issue but only in the afternoon heat. This is a hard one to diagnose but can certainly happen. I just bought a new dish myself and all my problems went away. By the way I don't have the protection plan and I fix all my own problems, I refuse to let anyone touch my setup.

If this really ends up looking like a bad HR21 then simply call up and say it locked up and now won't boot up. Play along with their "unplug, plug back in" script and once you do that and you say it still won't boot then they'll send out a replacement. With CSR's you kinda got to know where their call scripts go and lead them down the path you want. 

Good luck!


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Jason,
> 
> Welcome.
> 
> ...


Or do as I just heard a buddy of mine do..."I'm not sure I should plug it in again there's a lot of smoke coming from the back..." He was off the phone in about 10 seconds and should be getting a new box soon.


----------



## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

raott said:


> I think you are misinterpreting my post. My post had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of CSRs.
> 
> My point was an observation that he was told in an earlier post (#128) to be prepared for the onslaught of attacks (that unfortunately has become so typical for this site) when making critical remarks about D* --- and sure enough, that is exactly what happened -- starting with ironwood's post.


Yes I did, apologies.  However, I read all 7 pages and really did not get a sense of anyone attacking. There were some personal remarks but no real attacks. I do not defend D but have to say over 15 years I have been mostly satisfied. The HR-20 and the new dish have definitely given me MUCH more trouble than any other setup before, but sad to say I have come to expect that of new consumer electronics. I did lower my expectations when ordering this box only because of the delays and the complexity and new software. It does not make it right, but I think it is symptomatic of the age we live in. HOWEVER, my opinion is that companies like D and Microsoft, and Apple, MUST have trained and current CSRs, tech support (any way you want to spell it) to support these new devices. No excuses.:nono2:

Again good luck Jason I think DirecTV is worth the trouble, but that's just me. I guess they are the best of the worst. There I am on both sides. Call me Switzerland.


----------



## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Or do as I just heard a buddy of mine do..."I'm not sure I should plug it in again there's a lot of smoke coming from the back..." He was off the phone in about 10 seconds and should be getting a new box soon.


If you're going to send it back, make sure they don't restart your two year "lease" date again. That has been known to happen.


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

say-what said:


> You can always order bbc's for free from DirecTV
> 
> http://directv.qrs1.net/bbc/bbcForm.jsp
> 
> They'll show up in a day or two.


I've ordered 2 from this link a couple of times in the last few months just to have spares. . . but the orders apparently end up in the bit bucket somewhere. Nothing ever shows up.

I'll try stopping an installation truck in the neighborhood one day.

Jason,

Try swapping the HR20 with the 21 if it's convenient. (if it's not the diplexers) If the problem stays with the 20, go the replacement route.


----------



## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

tcusta00 said:


> If all a person does is complain over and over throughout multiple threads and not ask for some kind of resolution to their problem from the good people here who are capable of helping then, yes, they are whiners.


Unless the "good people here" that you speak of are DirecTV software or hardware engineers, asking people here for help will do nothing for the pause button lockups and other recording errors.

This is why people get upset, you are pretty much saying the box is perfect and that ANY issue MUST be something wrong with their system. Sorry, while it is certainly true that the box is not a complete piece of junk and 90% or even 25% failed records is indicative of somethign very unusual, there are problems that happen every day that are no fault of the install and no fault of the people using the equipment.

If those who are so lucky to never have an issue would just calm down and open their minds to teh fact that some issues can happen, even if they do not affect them personally (just as most people with problems can certainly understand that some people do not have issues), maybe people would feel a little better about posting stuff in the first place.

And again, just because DirecTV has problems that we wish were corrected does not mean we are idiots for staying with them. IF your wife did one thing that annoyed you, but you were happy with 99% of what she did, would you divorce her or act like an adult and talk about the issue you have?

AS far as tourblshooting this issue, I agree, the Diplexers could definitely be the problem. It will be interesting to hear about that.


----------



## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

bonscott87 said:


> Jason,
> 
> Welcome.
> 
> ...


1) The only unit that is doing OTA is the HR-20. Right now, our main issues are predominantly with the HR-20.

2) We have a separate coax being home run from the OTA antenna and being plugged directly into the OTA port on the HR-20.

3) We have only started experiencing significant problems since the June timeframe which is when the software upgrades rolled out.

4) Rachel has performed the diagnostics on the HR-20, here is the data:



> [14:52] rperlow: we can always watch live, although sometimes it does that searching for signal thing, but if you reboot it that usually corrects that problem
> 
> [14:52] rperlow: I tested the signal strengths.
> 
> ...


----------



## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Go ahead and call me an apologist. I call myself someone who's satisfied with my TV and wonders why anyone would stick with it if it sucks so bad... life's too short, Ken. After all, it's only TV.


Obviously you stick with it because there is not a better alternative. Plus a total hassle to switch providers and hardware. The real issue is people are expecting perfectly working equipment.

Whether you are a whiner apologist or whatever, the bottom line is the equipment has to work. Pretty much perfectly. I do not think it can be catagorized in that way at the moment. And this is after almost 2 years. I am thinking it is unacceptable. But what can you do about it? Nothing except hope they get it fixed eventually.


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

gcisko said:


> Obviously you stick with it because there is not a better alternative. Plus a total hassle to switch providers and hardware.


But it's not that obvious. 9 months ago I was under no commitment. I had the option of D*, E*, cable, or FIOS to make my switch to HD.

I picked D* and I'm happy with that decision EVERY day (and so is my wife who was more a tivo fan then I was - she even has a tivo sticker on her car). As far as working perfectly, all 3 of mine do. I don't know why, they just do.

But according to others here, the fact that my equipment works makes me a "fanboy" or "apologist" or "liar".


----------



## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

Lee L said:


> Unless the "good people here" that you speak of are DirecTV software or hardware engineers, asking people here for help will do nothing for the pause button lockups and other recording errors.
> 
> This is why people get upset, you are pretty much saying the box is perfect and that ANY issue MUST be something wrong with their system. Sorry, while it is certainly true that the box is not a complete piece of junk and 90% or even 25% failed records is indicative of somethign very unusual, there are problems that happen every day that are no fault of the install and no fault of the people using the equipment.
> 
> ...


That, my good sir, was very well put!
+1


----------



## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I picked D* and I'm happy with that decision EVERY day (and so is my wife who was more a tivo fan then I was - she even has a tivo sticker on her car). As far as working perfectly, all 3 of mine do. I don't know why, they just do.


That is great. This obviously includes media sharing with music photos and video. Never a problem with any of that, right?



spartanstew said:


> But according to others here, the fact that my equipment works makes me a "fanboy" or "apologist" or "liar".


Well if anyone feels that way, that is their problem. I certainly would not catagorize you or anyone else that way.


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

gcisko said:


> That is great. This obviously includes media sharing with music photos and video. Never a problem with any of that, right?


Music and photos works fine on my HR20 (although I haven't used it in a few months), which is the only one with that option. I don't know about video as I don't have any video on my computer and have never tried it.

Besides, when I say works perfectly, I'm talking about recording and playing back shows as that's really what's important to me. Now, I know others have problems with even that and I don't understand why. I don't, however, understand the need for some of them to enter EVERY thread regarding a bad experience and "pile on".


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

spartanstew said:


> I picked D* and I'm happy with that decision EVERY day (and so is my wife who was more a tivo fan then I was - she even has a tivo sticker on her car). As far as working perfectly, all 3 of mine do. I don't know why, they just do.


I still say there is something in some people's setups that causes problems with the receivers. Or maybe it's the electrical wiring or phone line or who knows what. There isn't any other reasonable explanation as to why some people have problems with 5 or 6 units and other people have no problems at all. And that doesn't excuse the problems, because these things should be able to handle different environments.


----------



## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> 1) The only unit that is doing OTA is the HR-20. Right now, our main issues are predominantly with the HR-20.
> 
> 2) We have a separate coax being home run from the OTA antenna and being plugged directly into the OTA port on the HR-20.
> 
> ...


You need to provide all of the transponder readings on both tuners for 103(c) (the only info you provide is that "I get a variety of N/A, 0 or strong signals")

103(c) is the satellite with the new HD channels.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

say-what said:


> You need to provide all of the transponder readings on both tuners for 103(c) (the only info you provide is that "I get a variety of N/A, 0 or strong signals")
> 
> 103(c) is the satellite with the new HD channels.


Ok, I have her photographing this on both the HR-20 and HR-21 now.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dbronstein said:


> I still say there is something in some people's setups that causes problems with the receivers. Or maybe it's the electrical wiring or phone line or who knows what. There isn't any other reasonable explanation as to why some people have problems with 5 or 6 units and other people have no problems at all. And that doesn't excuse the problems, because these things should be able to handle different environments.


You are correct. There is no reason why I am having no problems with my units while someone else running the same version is having problems. It's not the unit in general. It's either something in the person's setup [Dish alignment, LOS, cabling, network cabling, etc] or their one specific unit is bad. Now if they've replaced their unit and they are still having the problem, while others are not, that points to their setup not the unit.


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

dbronstein said:


> I still say there is something in some people's setups that causes problems with the receivers. Or maybe it's the electrical wiring or phone line or who knows what. There isn't any other reasonable explanation as to why some people have problems with 5 or 6 units and other people have no problems at all. And that doesn't excuse the problems, because these things should be able to handle different environments.


I don't think it's always the setup. My 2 HR20-700s are working fine (within the CE problems). I accept that.

What I don't accept is that it took 5 boxes to get 2 to work as well as they do. The original installation (by installer) took 3 to get 1 to work and in January, it took 2 to get 1.

If Dell or HP (or pick a brand) had this failure rate, where would they be? (no 2 year commitment).

And since these units weren't DOA, I'm sure they were re-entered into the supply chain for subsequent installation and subsequent problems. Who knows how many times they've been shipped / returned or are part of someone's current problem?


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

It's not really a fight...it's a hope that the contingent of talented and quality people at DirecTV can gain greater control over the process and hopefully change things for the better. The programming/content acquisition folks there have been doing their share of good things lately...including listening to their subscribers with products like MLB EI which is greatly improved compared to previous seasons.


----------



## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

ironwood said:


> DirecTV is No 1 is customer satisfaction amoung satellite and cable companies 7 years in a row.


Just because a company scores highly in "customer satisfaction" does not mean they have good "customer service" when you call for assistance. I interact with D8 in two ways - one when I watch TV and another when I have to call a CSR. 99% of the time, I am watching TV. Out of that, about 5% of the time, I am having some "issue" that ranges from mildly annoying (pixelization, slow response time, etc.) to angering (black recordings). About 1% of my D* interaction is calling a CSR for some sort of assistance. Out of that, about 50% of the time it is a very unsatisfactory experience. So, about 5.5% of my D* experience is unsatisfactory in some way, which means that I am 94.5% satisfied, right? Now, you see how reliable statistics can be? :lol:


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Here are the screen shots of the transponder outputs on 101 and 103c. The ones on the SHARP screen are on the HR-21, she's in the middle of doing the HR-20 now, which is on the SONY screen.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rperlow/archives/date-posted/2008/07/16/


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> You are correct. There is no reason why I am having no problems with my units while someone else running the same version is having problems. It's not the unit in general. It's either something in the person's setup [Dish alignment, LOS, cabling, network cabling, etc] or their one specific unit is bad. Now if they've replaced their unit and they are still having the problem, while others are not, that points to their setup not the unit.


Runner,

There are a few reasons why two HR20s with correct installs, good power supplies etc. could have differing experiences.

1. Memory leaks/software bugs. People use the devices differently. Some have a lot of programs scheduled, watch a lot of recordings, some don't. Some are constantly going to the guide and back, others use pause. Others just let it play. Some are using HDMI, others Component...there are a variety of possible differences in use. If there is a memory leak problem people using one feature where the leak is bad could cause issues that others wouldn't see. Especially when you consider that even the NR only people have been getting rebooted with patches fairly often.

2. We had five HR2X devices in our house. One of them was in the guest room. I had some series recording on it for backup, etc, but it rarely got used or watched. If that was how I used my other HR2x devices I too would be very pleased...it "ran" flawlessly. Now, that's an extreme example, but it's not unfair to say that some of the folks that have good experiences with the devices may not be using them as much or as sensitive to the errors. If not for my three-year-old I would never have known that recording children's shows was such a nightmare with this device. Just judging it on recording a few weekly shows and I'd rate it far better than I do.

3. Tolerance (related in some ways to #2) is a third reason. Some folks either don't understand what the device should do, don't understand that what they're seeing is a problem with the device or don't really care that much and just skip by the error.

4. I've said this before, but there are people that will lie on both sides. There's a variety of reasons for this that include ego, being paid shills (potentially by DirecTV and competitors), and the strange social orders you see created in forums. These people are scum.

I think the majority of what is going on is #1 in this forum...but the others are a factor as well. I should toss in that there are hardware differences as well. Even the same HR2X line may have differences both through manufacturing tolerances and point of manufacture. So, the HR20-700 I have may just not be as solid as the one you got a month later.


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Welcome Jason.

Let's start with the basics and go from there. First we will need your current signal levels. It will be a PITA, but will help a good deal to help narrow down the problem. I'll need the matrix below filled out for each tuner on each box (2 tuners per DVR)

Next, what and how many receivers do you have? Is it just the HR20 & the HR21 or is there more?

You mentioned you had an independant contract do your wiring. Do you know what type of cable & connectors he used? Rg59/Rg6/Rg??? What is the cable swept to? This should be printed on the cabling. Is it solid copper core or copper clad/coated steal? Good cable will be swept up to 2.5-4Ghz.

How is the cable secured from point to point? Screw clips, staples, romex clips?

Any sharp bends or kinks in the cable?

Are the receivers sharing the line with OTA/cable/internet/anything?

That should be a good start. 

Matrix below stolen from Litzdog911 

What are your readings like now? Please post back with your signal readings for each satellite's transponders (and both tuners if applicable). You'll find these readings under "Menu" -> "Setup" -> "System Setup" -> Satellite -> "View Signal Strength".

Fill in your readings for each satellite and tuner using these examples:

Satellite transponders (32 total at 101º)
[Most of your standard definition channels are beamed from 101ºW]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #
25-32 # # # # # # # #

Satellite transponders (3 total at 110º)
[Several HD channels are beamed from 110ºW]
1-8 NA NA NA NA NA NA NA #
9-16 NA # NA # NA NA NA NA

Satellite transponders (11 total at 119º)
[A few HD channels, local SD channels, and Spanish package]
17-24 NA NA NA NA NA # # #
25-32 # # # # # # # #

Satellite transponders (6 total at 99º(s))
[Local HD channels for some cities]
1-8 # # # # # # NA NA
[Note: these can be very slow to appear]

Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(s))
[Local HD channels for some cities]
1-8 # # # # # # NA NA
9-16 NA NA NA NA NA NA # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #
[Note, these can be very slow to appear]

Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(c))
[Most national HD channels]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # NA NA
17-24 # NA NA NA NA # NA NA


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

RobertE said:


> Welcome Jason.
> 
> Let's start with the basics and go from there. First we will need your current signal levels. It will be a PITA, but will help a good deal to help narrow down the problem. I'll need the matrix below filled out for each tuner on each box (2 tuners per DVR)
> 
> ...


*Well, they only asked for 103C earlier, but I have 101 and 103c screenshotted:*


__
https://flic.kr/p/2675559284

103(c) on HR-20:










103(c) on HR-21:


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> Here are the screen shots of the transponder outputs on 101 and 103c. The ones on the SHARP screen are on the HR-21, she's in the middle of doing the HR-20 now, which is on the SONY screen.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rperlow/archives/date-posted/2008/07/16/


The zeroes on the HR20 for 103(c) tuner 1 are not good. Try swapping the cables AND bbc's. Don't just disconnect the cables leaving the bbc's in place, disconnect the cable/bbc assembly where the bbc connects to the HR20 and swap the pair to see if the zeroes go to tuner 2. If they do, you most likely have a bad bbc, it's not the tuner, since tuner 1 has a signal with 101.

(I'm guessing those are on the Sony as I can see the base and nameplate on the Sharp in some, but not these pictures with the zeroes)


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Based on this pic there is an issue with the 103(c), tuner 1 on the BR DVR.


__
https://flic.kr/p/2675559284

Still need to see what tuner 2 looks like.

Anyway, some causes of all 0's on one tuner on 103(c) are:

Bad or no BBC
Something diplexed
Wrong external multiswitch
Poor quality cable
Bad internal multiswitch (in LNB)

What happens when ONLY the line is moved from tuner 1 to tuner 2 on the BR DVR? Please do not reboot. Just move the line only and re-run the sat levels.

If it's a bad BBC, you will see no change.

If it's a bad line, something diplexed or a switch issue, then you will get readings on 103(c) tuner 1 and get all zeros on tuner 2 for 103(c).

If it's a bad box, either could happen.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Ken S said:


> 1. Memory leaks/software bugs. People use the devices differently. Some have a lot of programs scheduled, watch a lot of recordings, some don't. Some are constantly going to the guide and back, others use pause. Others just let it play. Some are using HDMI, others Component...there are a variety of possible differences in use. If there is a memory leak problem people using one feature where the leak is bad could cause issues that others wouldn't see. Especially when you consider that even the NR only people have been getting rebooted with patches fairly often.


And this falls under setup...



Ken S said:


> 2. We had five HR2X devices in our house. One of them was in the guest room. I had some series recording on it for backup, etc, but it rarely got used or watched. If that was how I used my other HR2x devices I too would be very pleased...it "ran" flawlessly. Now, that's an extreme example, but it's not unfair to say that some of the folks that have good experiences with the devices may not be using them as much or as sensitive to the errors. If not for my three-year-old I would never have known that recording children's shows was such a nightmare with this device. Just judging it on recording a few weekly shows and I'd rate it far better than I do.


I have 4 units and during the TV season they are pretty much recording non-stop [each has 30+ SL's] and over the almost 2 years since I've had my first HR20 I have maybe missed 2 recordings. So I'm sorry but I don't believe this to be a case of "the more you use it the more problems you'll have".



Ken S said:


> 3. Tolerance (related in some ways to #2) is a third reason. Some folks either don't understand what the device should do, don't understand that what they're seeing is a problem with the device or don't really care that much and just skip by the error.


I don't fall into this category. I'm basing my statement on my experience when I say I don't have problems with the same piece of hardware that others say they are. Trust me, if I were having problems I would say so.



Ken S said:


> 4. I've said this before, but there are people that will lie on both sides. There's a variety of reasons for this that include ego, being paid shills (potentially by DirecTV and competitors), and the strange social orders you see created in forums. These people are scum.


I'm not liar and I can assure you that I am not being paid anything by DirecTV. The only company that pays me is the company I work for during the day. [A company actually just 1 city south of where your account info says you live and I'm sure if I told you what street we were on you'd know exactly what building complex I'm in] The only reason I ever say anything about a company, good or bad, is because I believe it. Read my posts on DirecTV's NASCAR HotPass and you'll see I'm definitely not a fanboy.



Ken S said:


> I should toss in that there are hardware differences as well. Even the same HR2X line may have differences both through manufacturing tolerances and point of manufacture. So, the HR20-700 I have may just not be as solid as the one you got a month later.


If you, or anyone, feel it is a hardware issue then get DirecTV to send you a replacement. It's really not that difficult. My first HR20 blew out one of the blue LED's in the ring within 2 months of my getting it. I called DirecTV and they replaced it no questions asked. I'm sure if you called and said you were having issues that others using the same version on the same unit weren't having they'd send a replacement.

My point being that it's not as bad as some people are making it out to be. They just want a reason to complain and argue or they want our sympathy. Well they aren't getting mine because they could remedy the problem if they really wanted to by going over their setup, getting a replacement unit from DirecTV, having their dish re-aligned, etc, instead of sitting here blasting DirecTV for a product they claim is a "lemon" when it works fine for the majority of us.


----------



## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Jason Perlow said:


> *Well, they only asked for 103C earlier, but I have 101 and 103c screenshotted:*
> 
> 
> __
> ...


I just called and yelled at my wife. Obviously, we got a tuner issue on the HR-20.

What bothers me is DirecTV tech support did not effectively diagnose the issue when we spent HOURS on the phone with them.


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

say-what said:


> The zeroes on the HR20 for 103(c) tuner 1 are not good. Try swapping the cables AND bbc's. Don't just disconnect the cables leaving the bbc's in place, disconnect the cable/bbc assembly where the bbc connects to the HR20 and swap the pair to see if the zeroes go to tuner 2. If they do, you most likely have a bad bbc, it's not the tuner, since tuner 1 has a signal with 101.
> 
> (I'm guessing those are on the Sony as I can see the base and nameplate on the Sharp in some, but not these pictures with the zeroes)


Swapping the cables AND the BBCs won't rule anything out at this point.

First step is to just swap the lines.
Then we move on to lines & BBC's.

See my previous post.


----------



## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Jason Perlow said:


> I just called and yelled at my wife. Obviously, we got a tuner issue on the HR-20.
> 
> What bothers me is DirecTV tech support did not effectively diagnose the issue when we spent HOURS on the phone with them.


This still doesnt make sense to me, though. The tuner is not COMPLETELY out, its only happening on some of the transponders. That this coincided with the software rollout is weird.

I am having her do simultaneous HD recordings and see if that will produce black screens.


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> I just called and yelled at my wife. Obviously, we got a tuner issue on the HR-20.
> 
> What bothers me is DirecTV tech support did not effectively diagnose the issue when we spent HOURS on the phone with them.


Not necessarily, could be a number of things that are killing the 103(c) on that tuner.

Still need to see the other levels on tuner 2 on that box.

Maybe a mod could open the chat room early?


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

See now that there is a pic of 103(c) T2. While not the greatest, they arn't too bad.

So at this point we can do a couple of things:
Swap just the lines, not the BBCs, will tell us if the problem is before or after the lines.
Swap lines AND BBCs, may tell us if it's a box issue, may or may not tell us if there is a line issue.


----------



## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

RobertE said:


> Not necessarily, could be a number of things that are killing the 103(c) on that tuner.
> 
> Still need to see the other levels on tuner 2 on that box.
> 
> Maybe a mod could open the chat room early?


We just unplugged the cables and swapped them, and made them really tight. Now we are getting strong signal on the transponders for 103(c) on Tuner 1 and 2.

I also had her swap the cables back to the original position and retighten, they are also strong signals. She noted that the cables were very tight when they were originally removed.

I am having her take new screenshots as well. I'll also have her schedule a whole bunch of shows for the weekend and see if any more black screens come back.

I find this entire issue bizarre because the box hasn't been touched in literally months and was functioning fine until mid june.


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

The pigtails on the BBCs have always been and always will be the weakest link of the BBC.

The connector is too short in my opinion. It is a full 1/8 of an inch shorter than a standard F-connector. 

Now that 103(c) is back on both tuners, give it a reboot to see if those levels stay.


----------



## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Ok so conversation with the wife:


Shows that definitely black screened in the last two weeks:


Weeds SHOHD

Deadliest Catch (DSCHD)

Meerkat Manor (Animal Planet HD)

BRAVOHD (pretty much every show)


Not sure what transponders these HD channels correspond to.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> And this falls under setup...
> 
> I have 4 units and during the TV season they are pretty much recording non-stop [each has 30+ SL's] and over the almost 2 years since I've had my first HR20 I have maybe missed 2 recordings. So I'm sorry but I don't believe this to be a case of "the more you use it the more problems you'll have".
> 
> ...


Runner,

I wasn't writing about you and certainly wasn't suggesting you were a liar. You were asking how people could have differing experiences I offered an explanation in general. In no way was I attacking you.

In your response are you stating that the memory leaks/software bugs are part of setup issues?

I also didn't say the more you use it the more problems you'll have. What I stated was the more you use it in certain ways the more likely you are to find the problem areas and experience issues. Or are you suggesting that there are no bugs in the software and all of the "stability" and "robustness" release notes for the past two years had nothing to do with the code and instead related to the table their device was sitting on? C'mon...it's pretty clear the software had and continues to have bugs, defects, etc. That's not unusual...in fact, I don't think there's a software package I've ever heard of that progressed past "Hello World" that didn't have software bugs.

Some people are going to hit those bugs and/or hit them more often than other because of the way they use the device...others may not...and if the way someone uses the box remains relatively consistent they may continue not to find problems.


----------



## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

RobertE said:


> The pigtails on the BBCs have always been and always will be the weakest link of the BBC.
> 
> The connector is too short in my opinion. It is a full 1/8 of an inch shorter than a standard F-connector.
> 
> Now that 103(c) is back on both tuners, give it a reboot to see if those levels stay.


It appears that after a reboot the levels are the same.

What I am having her do now is schedule her favorite HD shows over the next 3 days in staggered time periods, and ensure that both tuners are recording a HD show at the same time.

Then we'll do more diags over the next few days and see if we can induce a fault or see if the system remains stable.

We did order new BBCs for both DVRs, so we will swap those out when we get them. Its possible we may have some intermittent problems on a BBC. I just don't understand how they can just die like that, though.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jason,

It looks like you're making progress, very good.


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Jason Perlow said:


> It appears that after a reboot the levels are the same.
> 
> What I am having her do now is schedule her favorite HD shows over the next 3 days in staggered time periods, and ensure that both tuners are recording a HD show at the same time.
> 
> ...


Jason, if you think it'll help you can PM the shows you're setting up to record and I'll set them up on my HR20 as well. Just to rule out any provider issues that may occur. I'm going out of town early Saturday morning though, so it'd have to be shows tonight, tomorrow and Friday evening.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I wasn't writing about you and certainly wasn't suggesting you were a liar. You were asking how people could have differing experiences I offered an explanation in general. In no way was I attacking you.


I didn't think you were.



Ken S said:


> In your response are you stating that the memory leaks/software bugs are part of setup issues?


No, that's not what I'm saying at all. If they were memory leaks/software bugs we would all have them. You stated that maybe users who record more run into these leaks/bugs while others who record less do not. Your point that users who record more than others has no merit. I record more than the average human and I don't run into these errors. I stated this earlier but apparently that part wasn't read.



Ken S said:


> I also didn't say the more you use it the more problems you'll have.


Maybe not word for word, no. But your post implied that users who use the unit more are more prone to problems because of memory leaks and bugs.



Ken S said:


> What I stated was the more you use it in certain ways the more likely you are to find the problem areas and experience issues.


Please clarify "in certain ways"... Not sure how many ways you can setup a SL or a recording.



Ken S said:


> Or are you suggesting that there are no bugs in the software and all of the "stability" and "robustness" release notes for the past two years had nothing to do with the code and instead related to the table their device was sitting on?


Not what I was saying at all and now you are putting words in my mouth and I won't tolerate that. I NEVER said it had anything to do with the table their device is sitting on. I said SETUP! Setup meaning dish pointing, cabling, type of multiswitch, swm or not, have they broken open the box and replaced the drive, are they using eSATA, etc. The table it's sitting on??? Come on!



Ken S said:


> C'mon...it's pretty clear the software had and continues to have bugs, defects, etc.


Bugs are a part of ANY software, but I don't agree with your statement that bugs in the software are causing every single problem out there. And it's not "pretty clear" that software is to blame for lost recordings, etc. Like I said before, and I guess has to be said a million times before it starts to sink in, the majority of us are NOT having problems with the EXACT same software that others are. I do NOT believe the software is to blame here for as many issues as people want us to believe.



Ken S said:


> That's not unusual...in fact, I don't think there's a software package I've ever heard of that progressed past "Hello World" that didn't have software bugs.


I agree. And some even have a problem with "Hello World". But I do not agree with software being to blame for everything with the HR2X's. If it were software then ALL of us running the same software would have the same issues.



Ken S said:


> Some people are going to hit those bugs and/or hit them more often than other because of the way they use the device...others may not...and if the way someone uses the box remains relatively consistent they may continue not to find problems.


I completely disagree. Unless by "the way they use the device" you mean their setup.

You see people blaming Pixelization on the box... Did they ever stop to think that the pixelization can actually be in the broadcast??

Same goes for audio dropouts.

Blank/lost recordings... That could be the result of a stations HD feed being down, I've had this happen to me on FOX 29 here locally, but that's not a "lost recording". They can also be the result of bad cabling, bad weather, bad LNB, bad multiswitch, etc. Yet everyone is so quick to blame the HR2X saying "Oh it's a lemon" or it's "a POS", etc. 90% of the time the people who cry this don't bother to look to find out what may have actually caused it, they just want to cry and blame the box and not bother to find a solution. These are oddly enough the same people that look for "freebies" from DirecTV also, at least most of the time.

A blank/lost recording could also be the result of their account losing the authorization for some reason. I've seen channels not show up on my unit before but once I re-authorize my account [re-send programming whatever...] then the issue clears up. Guess what... That wasn't the box!

I could go on about what could be the cause of blank/lost recordings [Heck, it could even be their dog hitting the remote! ] but I won't. I have other things to do with my time and it appears as though I'm wasting fingers typing in this thread.

Jason was pretty quick to blame the box however he's now put some effort into it and he's finding the box is ok isn't he? Think what would happen if others put that effort into it.

One last thing...

I'm sure if we setup a poll you'd find majority of the "complainers" are the "glass half empty" type whereas those of us who understand there are bumps along the way are the "glass half full" type.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Runner,

Y'know what...I'm not going to continue this discussion as it is fruitless and detracting from getting Jason the assistance that may help. 
Your're going to believe what you want...I'll believe what I wish and we'll find a way to coexist here. 

Just think about this if you want. How many different ways are there to change a channel on the HR2X series...hint it's more than one.

Have a good one.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Y'know what...I'm not going to continue this discussion as it is fruitless and detracting from getting Jason the assistance that may help.
> Your're going to believe what you want...I'll believe what I wish and we'll find a way to coexist here.


Figures, I bring up valid points and the other party turns tail and runs... Oh well, you think it's the box if you want, I know it's not because mine are fine.



Ken S said:


> Just think about this if you want. How many different ways are there to change a channel on the HR2X series...hint it's more than one.


So, what does that do to prove your point? Nothing...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

OK folks .. :backtotop ..


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> It appears that after a reboot the levels are the same.
> 
> What I am having her do now is schedule her favorite HD shows over the next 3 days in staggered time periods, and ensure that both tuners are recording a HD show at the same time.
> 
> ...


Glad to see you're making some headway there. Who knows with the bbc's. But I have a boxful of them, which were rendered useless once I got a SWM.

Anyone need some bbc's?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Jason Perlow said:


> We just unplugged the cables and swapped them, and made them really tight. Now we are getting strong signal on the transponders for 103(c) on Tuner 1 and 2.
> 
> I also had her swap the cables back to the original position and retighten, they are also strong signals. She noted that the cables were very tight when they were originally removed.
> 
> ...


Excellent, glad we're getting somewhere. Now that you've mentioned this my boss had this same issue with the BBC. He was getting blank recordings and such on an off. Come to find out one of the BBC's the installer hooked up had the center wire shorting out, it was bent a bit. He fixed it and tightened things down (the other was a bit loose). Since he did that he hasn't had a problem since.

As for your earlier comment on why couldn't DirecTV figure this stuff out or go into this kind of detail....unfortunately they can't. They don't have any training to do so. Most CSRs probably don't even know what the BBC does. They make $10 an hour (if lucky) and just take calls. That's why they usually just send out a tech or offer to replace the box. Honestly, the geeks like us on this forum are way more knowledgeable about the equipment then 90% of the CSRs. I don't mean anything bad toward them, it's not their fault, it's just the fact. And I've had the same issue with both cell phone companies I've had. I know more about the phone and the technology then any CSR does. Same for my computers, I'll take care of them myself. Cars...another story, don't know a thing and I have to trust a mechanic.

And I'm not trying to make an excuse for DirecTV or any other company, but it's just the way it is in the high tech world.

As for the time, you're already seeing the amount of time this can take. It took me a full 2 weeks to troubleshoot my problem down to the LNB. However I knew calling in to get the LNB replaced would be a waste of my time since they would never believe me and would (if I'm lucky) send out a tech and they all say "oh it can't be the LNB". Again, unfortunate.

Welll get there.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

> Excellent, glad we're getting somewhere. Now that you've mentioned this my boss had this same issue with the BBC. He was getting blank recordings and such on an off. Come to find out one of the BBC's the installer hooked up had the center wire shorting out, it was bent a bit. He fixed it and tightened things down (the other was a bit loose). Since he did that he hasn't had a problem since.
> 
> As for your earlier comment on why couldn't DirecTV figure this stuff out or go into this kind of detail....unfortunately they can't. They don't have any training to do so. Most CSRs probably don't even know what the BBC does. They make $10 an hour (if lucky) and just take calls. That's why they usually just send out a tech or offer to replace the box. Honestly, the geeks like us on this forum are way more knowledgeable about the equipment then 90% of the CSRs. I don't mean anything bad toward them, it's not their fault, it's just the fact. And I've had the same issue with both cell phone companies I've had. I know more about the phone and the technology then any CSR does. Same for my computers, I'll take care of them myself. Cars...another story, don't know a thing and I have to trust a mechanic.


Clearly the BBCs are a majorly weak link in the entire chain for HD service from DTV. What the heck was the point of these things anyway, to act as signal terminator caps or something? We didn't need them with the DirecTivos.

Latest diag pics here... I'll keep having her upload new stuff as we see changes, etc.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rperlow/archives/date-posted/2008/07/16/


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> Clearly the BBCs are a majorly weak link in the entire chain for HD service from DTV. What the heck was the point of these things anyway, to act as signal terminator caps or something? We didn't need them with the DirecTivos.
> 
> Latest diag pics here... I'll keep having her upload new stuff as we see changes, etc.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rperlow/archives/date-posted/2008/07/16/


BBCs are effectively a frequency converter.. they are needed to get the new frequencies from d10 (and soon d11)..


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Jason Perlow said:


> Clearly the BBCs are a majorly weak link in the entire chain for HD service from DTV. What the heck was the point of these things anyway, to act as signal terminator caps or something? We didn't need them with the DirecTivos.
> 
> Latest diag pics here... I'll keep having her upload new stuff as we see changes, etc.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rperlow/archives/date-posted/2008/07/16/


Okay, I did some googling and read more than I wanted to know. Jesus, what a kludge.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> Okay, I did some googling and read more than I wanted to know. Jesus, what a kludge.


Don't know why they did it, but from what I've heard the next recievers won't need them (also SWM setups don't use them)


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> Okay, I did some googling and read more than I wanted to know. Jesus, what a kludge.


The good news is that BBCs are not needed if the customer uses an SWM multiswitch or the new SWMline satellite dish, and the latest receivers do away with a need for BBCs or even a need for an SWM multiswitch entierely, as the receiver can natively accept all required frequencies. (Generally speaking - others can come along and correct terminology.)


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Drew2k said:


> The good news is that BBCs are not needed if the customer uses an SWM multiswitch or the new SWMline satellite dish, and the latest receivers do away with a need for BBCs or even a need for an SWM multiswitch entierely, as the receiver can natively accept all required frequencies. (Generally speaking - others can come along and correct terminology.)


I'm wondering if introducing a new multiswitch into the equation will make things more or less reliable. At least with the BBCs you can replace them inside the house if they go bad. If they are just enclosing the same crappy parts inside a multiswitch or a dish, you have to go on the damn roof! I hope whatever is in the new breed of recievers is better quality.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Jason Perlow said:


> I'm wondering if introducing a new multiswitch into the equation will make things more or less reliable. At least with the BBCs you can replace them inside the house if they go bad. If they are just enclosing the same crappy parts inside a multiswitch or a dish, you have to go on the damn roof! I hope whatever is in the new breed of recievers is better quality.


Well, that's why my multiswitch and all my cabling goes into my patch panel in the basement. Nothing is outside other then the dish. 

I think you'll find less problems with an SWM (which costs a couple hundred) vs. the BBC which costs a couple bucks.

Basically the BBC's were needed because the hardware in the receivers hadn't caught up to the technology going up in the sky and they were a stop gap. I'd bet most new installs don't even get them anymore or won't within a year.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Jason:

You make two good points.

1. The BBC "dongles" are one of the great kludges of all time. No one really can explain why they are not on board. They are a clear source of problems. Presumably, the next HR model will have the BBC on board, where it belongs.

2. Adding diplexers or SWM to the mix just makes the whole system more complicated. I made my installer run a new cable (100 feet) for each tuner. I catch a lot heat on the board for promoting the TIVO, but my HR21 hardware has worked pretty well. I attribute that in part to a solid install and avoiding SWM for now. Having two separate cable runs to the HR21 makes troubleshooting a lot easier. If you don't have it yet, get a small UPS

If D* really plans to install millions of these boxes, it may need to come up with a better/simpler installation protocol.

The HR2x roll out is an interesting story, and worthy of further coverage. Once your hardware is solid, we can compare notes about the software.

The moderators should be commended for trying to turn lemons into lemonade. I hope you get your system working soon.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, that's why my multiswitch and all my cabling goes into my patch panel in the basement. Nothing is outside other then the dish.
> 
> I think you'll find less problems with an SWM (which costs a couple hundred) vs. the BBC which costs a couple bucks.
> 
> Basically the BBC's were needed because the hardware in the receivers hadn't caught up to the technology going up in the sky and they were a stop gap. I'd bet most new installs don't even get them anymore or won't within a year.


Actualy I think it was the other way around.. HRs were expected to run with SWMs but the SWMs were late..


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## Maverickster (Sep 20, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Jason,
> 
> It looks like you're making progress, very good.


Frankly, the fact that DBSTalk has to walk a guy with a blog on ZDNet through the troubleshoot tells you all you need to know about the reliability of D* (unpreferred reference intentional) "customer service" and "engineering".

--Mav


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Actualy I think it was the other way around.. HRs were expected to run with SWMs but the SWMs were late..


This is my feeling too. Now looking back many things unexplained start making sense. "Bad" tuner 2.... Long 20 minute start up times....

It is also a fact that SWM been tested and successfully for quite a long time now. Question is why isnt it still in mass production?


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Nicholsen said:


> Jason:
> 
> If D* really plans to install millions of these boxes, it may need to come up with a better/simpler installation protocol.


No kidding. Any early adopter that went purchasing a 5 LNB dish that didn't have the built in BBC technology should be sent a new dish at the company's cost, or be given a discount price on the new dish plus enough credit on future bills to cover the cost of the new unit.

So let me get this straight... DIRECTV calls up Boeing.. "Hey, can you launch us a satellite? Oh, great. Its gonna cost us how much money to engineer us a new design for Hi-Def transmission? Uh... how bout dis... can you give us one o 'dem 702 jobbies that you made for the SPACEWAY Internet thingamabob, but can you jigger 'dem software so it only broadcasts one way? Oh, Yeah, we know about that 500mhz of spectrum thing and our current HD receiver design. We'll just give the customers this dongle whatchamacallit that does a signal conversion. Yeah, we know its a kludge. No problem. When can you launch it? Great."

"Hey Clyde, call up them fellers in China, we gonna need a couple million dongle thingies real quick!"

To borrow the hackneyed expression, *Well HERE's your problem Right Here, Ma'am.*


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Monday, the guide data will be the reason for the missed recordings.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> Okay, I did some googling and read more than I wanted to know. Jesus, what a kludge.


Sounds like a good topic for another article  Or maybe your experience here?


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> No kidding. Any early adopter that went purchasing a 5 LNB dish that didn't have the built in BBC technology should be sent a new dish at the company's cost, or be given a discount price on the new dish plus enough credit on future bills to cover the cost of the new unit.
> 
> So let me get this straight... DIRECTV calls up Boeing.. "Hey, can you launch us a satellite? Oh, great. Its gonna cost us how much money to engineer us a new design for Hi-Def transmission? Uh... how bout dis... can you give us one o 'dem 702 jobbies that you made for the SPACEWAY Internet thingamabob, but can you jigger 'dem software so it only broadcasts one way? Oh, Yeah, we know about that 500mhz of spectrum thing and our current HD receiver design. We'll just give the customers this dongle whatchamacallit that does a signal conversion. Yeah, we know its a kludge. No problem. When can you launch it? Great."
> 
> ...


Jason,

The BBCs they're distributing today are better than the early models. The first batches came with the cable section hard folded back (to save space) back against the converter. Want to guess what happens when you put a hard 180 degree bend to cheaply made cable? I went through about a dozen...they now come with the cable straight in a long, thin box.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Ken S said:


> The BBCs they're distributing today are better than the early models. The first batches came with the cable section hard folded back (to save space) back against the converter. Want to guess what happens when you put a hard 180 degree bend to cheaply made cable? I went through about a dozen...they now come with the cable straight in a long, thin box.


Even though I got two first-generation good ones that are still in use.


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## digger16309 (Sep 21, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> Are you guys serious? You care enough to create a custom avatar making some kind of "statement" about how bad your receivers are but you won't take your business elsewhere? :nono2:


NFL Sunday Ticket is only on D*.

D* hasn't pissed me off (lately) but even if they did, there is nowhere for me to go where I can subscribe to that package until at least 2011 when the contract opens up again.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> No kidding. Any early adopter that went purchasing a 5 LNB dish that didn't have the built in BBC technology should be sent a new dish at the company's cost, or be given a discount price on the new dish plus enough credit on future bills to cover the cost of the new unit.
> 
> So let me get this straight... DIRECTV calls up Boeing.. "Hey, can you launch us a satellite? Oh, great. Its gonna cost us how much money to engineer us a new design for Hi-Def transmission? Uh... how bout dis... can you give us one o 'dem 702 jobbies that you made for the SPACEWAY Internet thingamabob, but can you jigger 'dem software so it only broadcasts one way? Oh, Yeah, we know about that 500mhz of spectrum thing and our current HD receiver design. We'll just give the customers this dongle whatchamacallit that does a signal conversion. Yeah, we know its a kludge. No problem. When can you launch it? Great."
> 
> ...


:lol:


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Jason,

So what's the update for today? Are things better?


----------



## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

gcisko said:


> Sounds like a good topic for another article  Or maybe your experience here?


Quite possibly a good topic, but if anything needs to be written about I can't think of anything better than this one....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=118382

I wonder if Jason knows anything about DLB? Now that's a story!

Regards,
Frank

PS, don't worry, it's the last time I'll mention it here.


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

jjohns said:


> Monday, the guide data will be the reason for the missed recordings.


Of course it will because the Emperor always has clothes on.

When customers have a perfectly working system, receive a software update overnight, and then have issues, it has to be the guide data at fault.


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> No kidding. Any early adopter that went purchasing a 5 LNB dish that didn't have the built in BBC technology should be sent a new dish at the company's cost, or be given a discount price on the new dish plus enough credit on future bills to cover the cost of the new unit.
> 
> So let me get this straight... DIRECTV calls up Boeing.. "Hey, can you launch us a satellite? Oh, great. Its gonna cost us how much money to engineer us a new design for Hi-Def transmission? Uh... how bout dis... can you give us one o 'dem 702 jobbies that you made for the SPACEWAY Internet thingamabob, but can you jigger 'dem software so it only broadcasts one way? Oh, Yeah, we know about that 500mhz of spectrum thing and our current HD receiver design. We'll just give the customers this dongle whatchamacallit that does a signal conversion. Yeah, we know its a kludge. No problem. When can you launch it? Great."
> 
> ...


Correct me if I am wrong, it maybe a kludge, but Directv would have had to put satellites in other less desireable oribital slots. With this kludge, Spaceway 1 & 2 and D10 and D11 can share orbital slots as they are broadcasting on different frequencies Ku/Ka. The BBC's allow the receiver to see the Ka frequencies. The alternative would have been they'd have to put up a Ku satellite somewhere and you'd need a 2nd dish OR they'd have to do what Dish does and duplicate channels for the East coast on one satellite and West coast on another satellite.

It is a problem that the BBC's are so fragile and unreliable, but the long term goal it seems is to have a more reliable inside-the-box solution.

It is bad that CSR's don't know anything about the complexities of the setup. It almost seems there needs to be a dedicated technical support area that would keep track of these issues and be able to give alot of the advice we find here on this site.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Dr. Booda said:


> Of course it will because the Emperor always has clothes on.
> 
> When customers have a perfectly working system, receive a software update overnight, and then have issues, it has to be the guide data at fault.


Sometimes it's the guide data cache .. which is not the same thing .. but yes, bad guide data can cause problems at times.


----------



## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Just an FYI -- a user in another thread had his missing 103 (c) evens fixed by a new multiswitch.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

jjohns said:


> Monday, the guide data will be the reason for the missed recordings.


Could you please explain that? I've been following this thread, but I don't understand this post.

Doug's post helps, but where does Monday come in?

Thanks


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

ATARI said:


> Jason,
> 
> So what's the update for today? Are things better?


I'm not returning home until tonight but most things recorded recorded and one thing failed, which may have been caused by user intervention. However she didn't follow my instructions to the letter, which may have invalidated the tests. 

What I have asked her to do is re-run diagnostics to make sure we have good signal on the transponders on both tuners today, and to schedule the system to do dual recordings non stop for the entire weekend so that both tuners are always active. So if she is recording a show at a certain time, she records another show in an identical time slot. My concern is that the problem will not be introduced when only one tuner is recording. If its the BBC that is flaky on a tuner, I want us to be able to make that determination, or if its the unit itself, or a software bug that is causing the condition.


----------



## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

ATARI said:


> Just an FYI -- a user in another thread had his missing 103 (c) evens fixed by a new multiswitch.


Right, but I dont have a multiswitch, the dish I have has the switch built in. We're home running the coax to each receiver.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Jason Perlow said:


> I'm not returning home until tonight but most things recorded recorded and one thing failed, which may have been caused by user intervention. However she didn't follow my instructions to the letter, which may have invalidated the tests.
> 
> What I have asked her to do is re-run diagnostics to make sure we have good signal on the transponders on both tuners today, and to schedule the system to do dual recordings non stop for the entire weekend so that both tuners are always active. So if she is recording a show at a certain time, she records another show in an identical time slot. My concern is that the problem will not be introduced when only one tuner is recording. If its the BBC that is flaky on a tuner, I want us to be able to make that determination, or if its the unit itself, or a software bug that is causing the condition.


Hate it when that happens... :nono:

But I'm curious, in this "I'll make sure both tuners are doing something" scenario, is there a way to tell which tuner did what?

This is just the sort of the thing the (ex) embedded programmer in me would like to know... Just like I'd like to be able to see more details on the prioritizer entries when the list is empty... But that's another story.. Er, thread.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

EricJRW said:


> Hate it when that happens... :nono:
> 
> But I'm curious, in this "I'll make sure both tuners are doing something" scenario, is there a way to tell which tuner did what?
> 
> This is just the sort of the thing the (ex) embedded programmer in me would like to know... Just like I'd like to be able to see more details on the prioritizer entries when the list is empty... But that's another story.. Er, thread.


Well, thats a good question. it would be nice to know in the extended recording INFO button data which tuner recorded what show. I suspect that in super secret cheat code you can do that, but I don't know what they are.

Anyone?


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Sometimes it's the guide data cache .. which is not the same thing .. but yes, bad guide data can cause problems at times.


Is it Monday already?

If the software can't handle the guide data, that's a software issue, not a guide data issue. Regardless, those type of issues are not hardware or installation dependent, so if a user wakes up to a new update that messes up his box, the update was at fault.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> No kidding. Any early adopter that went purchasing a 5 LNB dish that didn't have the built in BBC technology should be sent a new dish at the company's cost, or be given a discount price on the new dish plus enough credit on future bills to cover the cost of the new unit.
> 
> So let me get this straight... DIRECTV calls up Boeing.. "Hey, can you launch us a satellite? Oh, great. Its gonna cost us how much money to engineer us a new design for Hi-Def transmission? Uh... how bout dis... can you give us one o 'dem 702 jobbies that you made for the SPACEWAY Internet thingamabob, but can you jigger 'dem software so it only broadcasts one way? Oh, Yeah, we know about that 500mhz of spectrum thing and our current HD receiver design. We'll just give the customers this dongle whatchamacallit that does a signal conversion. Yeah, we know its a kludge. No problem. When can you launch it? Great."
> 
> ...


Jason - You shoulld check out this thread in the Installation Forum - pretty soon installers will not be permitted to setup a new dish and activate and receiver and walk away without first verifying through a new process that the signal strengths are where they should be and that the setup is configured properly.

Intallation Verification

Hopefully this will make life easier for the customer because they will either have a verified installation or they will be assured that there will be a follow-up visit from a tech to resolve problems with the installation.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

C’mon – Let’s not kid ourselves. The reason this guy has got 10 pages and counting for a common problem still happening dating back more than two years - missed recordings - is because he writes for a major publication. 

A regular dude posting in here who complained of missed recordings would have been told one the following 8 pages ago:

The code is too complicated for DirecTV to correct these things.
It’s your dishes fault
It's your installation's fault
It’s the content providers’ fault
It’s the folks who provide the guide data’s fault
It’s your setup’s fault
It’s your fault
Better send it back

Ya got no problems – version update – now ya got problems. Sure - it’s not the update that caused it - it’s your system now.
And please – spare me the lecture that if you criticize this product you are not being helpful to the discussion. I have just as much right to my opinion as you do to yours.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

jjohns said:


> C'mon - Let's not kid ourselves. The reason this guy has got 10 pages and counting for a common problem still happening dating back more than two years - missed recordings - is because he writes for a major publication.
> 
> A regular dude posting in here who complained of missed recordings would have been told one the following 8 pages ago


I've got to disagree with you on that ... go look at the main forums and you will see people posting new threads specific to their own circumstances all the time, and you will see many people jump in to assist and try to resolve the problem. Yes, the attention to this thread is enhanced because it started from an external post, but don't make it sound like this forum ignores "regular dude".


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

jjohns said:


> C'mon - Let's not kid ourselves. The reason this guy has got 10 pages and counting for a common problem still happening dating back more than two years - missed recordings - is because he writes for a major publication.
> 
> A regular dude posting in here who complained of missed recordings would have been told one the following 8 pages ago:
> 
> ...


Someone needs a hug.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

jjohns said:


> C'mon - Let's not kid ourselves. The reason this guy has got 10 pages and counting for a common problem still happening dating back more than two years - missed recordings - is because he writes for a major publication.
> 
> A regular dude posting in here who complained of missed recordings would have been told one the following 8 pages ago <snip>





Drew2k said:


> I've got to disagree with you on that ... go look at the main forums and you will see people posting new threads specific to their own circumstances, and you will see many people jump in to assist and try to resolve the problem. Yes, the attention to this thread is enhanced because it started from an external post, but don't make it sound like this forum ignores "regular dude".




I agree with Drew, and quite frankly, what you're implying is a slap in the face to those of us who do try to help the "regular dude" in the regular threads.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> I've got to disagree with you on that ... go look at the main forums and you will see people posting new threads specific to their own circumstances all the time, and you will see many people jump in to assist and try to resolve the problem. Yes, the attention to this thread is enhanced because it started from an external post, but don't make it sound like this forum ignores "regular dude".




Yes, this thread is getting some extra attention because and "outsider" has now become and "insider" :welcome_s to the forum Jason 

Folks do a great job of helping out here ..


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Dr. Booda said:


> Is it Monday already?
> 
> If the software can't handle the guide data, that's a software issue, not a guide data issue. Regardless, those type of issues are not hardware or installation dependent, so if a user wakes up to a new update that messes up his box, the update was at fault.


Yes, in a perfect world you may be correct .. However there are many things in my daily life that aren't perfect. I choose to help improve things where I can and when I can.

As for your comment here .. Well, yes .. "if a user wakes up to a new update *that messes up his box*, the update was at fault"

While you make assumptions as to where the cause is, others try to help resolve the issue which very well could be related to something else .. Heck, look at this case here. It appears that Jason may have something going on with his BBC and after a bit of banter back and forth it looks like progress is being made. Simply saying "It's the software" would have been incorrect in this situation ..

.. and for the record .. it wasn't the guide data this time ..


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Funny, as much as I will criticise people for doing all the things in the post above when we complain of problems, it does seem in this case that there may be something wrong with the install.


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, in a perfect world you may be correct .. However there are many things in my daily life that aren't perfect. I choose to help improve things where I can and when I can.
> 
> As for your comment here .. Well, yes .. "if a user wakes up to a new update *that messes up his box*, the update was at fault"
> 
> ...


I didn't mention Jason's problem, I mentioned a situation where a user receives an update and immediately starts having problems due to it (like the immediate postings in the issue threads started yesterday). I had a working box last April and then an update (I can't remember which one) caused issues. Luckily, some of the recent ones have been better, but it now seems like others are going through a similar thing. The cycle seems to be moving around between users. Why? Beats me.

If Jason has a BBC problem, great that's a simple one. Then the issue lies with DirecTV's supply chain and quality control for producing a defective unit in the first place. Those business structures should be improved in the future.

I'm glad to hear it's not the guide data; they must be firing up D11 then in time for NFLST.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Let's say we wait until it records successfully with new BBC's before we proclaim "Mission Accomplished". The problem he's described has been reported in this forum since 2006.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Check out the amount of help this "regular dude" got for an eerily similar problem. Zero.

Yesterday, 05:21 PM #1 
NYHeel 
Godfather

Join Date: Aug 21, 2006
Location: North Jersey
Posts: 293 
User# 24909 missed recordings on version 235 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I recently noticed a bunch of missed recordings on my Hr20-100 with software version 235. The history states that the recording was cancelled by the user, which of course isn't true. 

I have sportscenter set to record all but keep at most 1 and it hasn't recorded in days with the cancel message. I also missed the recording from Monday night's American Gladiators. Also, the to do list doesn't show any future episodes from these season passes. 

Has this been occuring to other people as well. It's pretty bad.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

jjohns said:


> Check out the amount of help this "regular dude" got for an eerily similar problem. Zero.
> 
> Yesterday, 05:21 PM #1
> NYHeel
> ...


So go help the brother out! Telling him it's a common issue isn't exactly helping him either, is it?

What are you looking for here, a concession that we all suck because we didn't get to respond to one guy's issue? Give me a break, we're splitting hairs here and it's getting really frustrating. :nono2:


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

jjohns said:


> C'mon - Let's not kid ourselves. The reason this guy has got 10 pages and counting for a common problem still happening dating back more than two years - missed recordings - is because he writes for a major publication.
> 
> A regular dude posting in here who complained of missed recordings would have been told one the following 8 pages ago:
> 
> ...


I disagree too...anyone in these forums that has this thread and continues to work with the folks here doesn't get cut off. Some of my early threads went on for pages with people like VOS and many others continually adding information and items to try.
Sure there are always hecklers, off topic posts and some just plain bad info...but that's the case on every forum...just part of the game.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Someone needs a hug.


I agree...please send Carmen Electra over asap!


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I disagree too...anyone in these forums that has this thread and continues to work with the folks here doesn't get cut off. Some of my early threads went on for pages with people like VOS and many others continually adding information and items to try.
> Sure there are always hecklers, off topic posts and some just plain bad info...but that's the case on every forum...just part of the game.


Yep, we can't fix the CSRs but there are a ton of good people here to help fix a dvr..


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

ATARI said:


> Just an FYI -- a user in another thread had his missing 103 (c) evens fixed by a new multiswitch.


Are you referring to when I go to check the signal strengths and do not see a 103 (c)???


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

gcisko said:


> Are you referring to when I go to check the signal strengths and do not see a 103 (c)???


Its when you only see every other available transponder on 103 (c).


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

ATARI said:


> Its when you only see every other available transponder on 103 (c).


So now that I am home and have had a chance to examine the system again, this is what is happening.

The HR-20 has two "Rev 2" block type BBC's. If we swap the cables back and forth, we get an alternating issue where every other transponder has a signal strength of zero on that tuner. I can correct this by jiggling and retightening, but it comes and it goes. You can literally sit and watch the transponder screen for a half an hour, where for a few minutes you have good signals on all the transponders on 103(c) for the questionable cable/bbc, and then suddenly every other one drops to zero. And then a few minutes later back again. By the way, this is NOT HAPPENING on the other DVR, the HR-21. We have solid transponder on both tuners on 103(c).

So we called technical support last night and they are sending out a tech to visit us on saturday morning. The tech rep, who THIS TIME was helpful, is saying one of the cables themselves may have "gone bad". I am not sure how its possible for six month old sheilded coax to do that, but whatever. I used to do tons of outdoor coax for old style ethernet drops between buildings and never had a cable go bad. Squirrels or critters munching on the line? I dunno.

However, if its the "multiswitch", then we need to have the entire dish replaced, because we don't have a multiswitch with the slimline dish, we are home running the cables direct to the DVRs. The dish has the multiswitch integrated.

What is extremely bizarre is we can sit and watch all the HD channels live. We never get a "searching for signal" unless the weather is really bad. It always takes a few seconds to acquire the signal and start the decode, but we get a clear picture with no pixelation or artifacts on all the channels.

Tomorrow I am going to ask the tech to replace all of the BBCs and check every single component.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Jason, 

Because of what you're saying, I would be prepared for "everything to work right" when the tech gets there. Both of us have been around this sort of thing long enough to know that it always happens. I do think replacing the BBCs and putting new compression connectors on the ends of the existing cables is a great way to start. 

"Replacing the dish" is really not a huge matter. First of all, there's no reason to expect that the mast is a problem, so no new mounting is necessary. Second, unless there is real damage to the reflector surface, I doubt that would need replacing. So, really it's a matter of taking off the LNB/multiswitch assembly and putting another one on. Then they check the alignment, and if they are careful it should not change. 

90% of the problem with everything is the cable. I bet you'll find new BBCs and new compression connectors will do wonders.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Agreed. Just a note on cables, just a little moisture getting into the cable (either by a bad end connector, critter bite or whatever) can cause all kinds of problems.

But I think new BBCs on that HR20 is needed and better connector ends for the cable as mentioned. This may fix up the problem, hopefully.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Agreed. Just a note on cables, just a little moisture getting into the cable (either by a bad end connector, critter bite or whatever) can cause all kinds of problems.
> 
> But I think new BBCs on that HR20 is needed and better connector ends for the cable as mentioned. This may fix up the problem, hopefully.


I would be shocked if the new BBC don't fix it. I really would doubt it is the cables.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

This sounds like a BBC issue to me as well, especially since the other receiver is solid.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Doug Brott said:


> This sounds like a BBC issue to me as well, especially since the other receiver is solid.


Would be nice if it solved the problem, yeah. We'll see what happens.

BTW on the issue of software... the HR-20 in question is on 0x235 from June 16. When we attempted to force download the firmware, it stayed at the same level when it rebooted.


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

Pretty much to be expected. Other than a unit that has been off and just hooked back up again a receiver should already have the newest version it is able to have. Once your box has been flagged for the newer 0x254 it will download and install it automatically. This usually happens late night/early morning when the boxes aren't likely to be in use. The only way you would have gotten a newer version was if you happened to be in a small window between when your box was flagged for the newer version and it actually getting it during the night. New releases are always rolled out in a staggered manor.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Current Status:

Technician came, with two trainees in tow. We ran the usual battery of tests, bad signal on 103(c) on the HR-20 on Tuner 1. But we also ran them on the HR-21, which started to have intermittent transponder issues on one of its tuners as well when we observed both of them over a period of two hours.

We replaced both BBC's on the HR-20, rev 2 greys with rev 3 blacks. *NO EFFECT.*

This immediately led us to believe there was a cable problem, but we checked all the cables and they looked good. So he went up on the roof, and *replaced the entire LNB assembly.* New LNBs with built-in multiswitch..

Guess what? Now we have 95 percent signal plus on all transponders for 101 and 103(c) on all tuners on both DVRs. Hell we even have lots of 99s and some 100s now.

No sign of lightning damage or anything on the original LNB or the dish. The LNB assembly or the built-in multiswitch "Just went bad".

We're going to schedule a ton of dual tuner recordings this weekend to see if things have been resolved.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> So the thing is, that this has turned into a thread about the things people say in threads.
> 
> I re-read the blog in question, and it seems to me that the big point wasn't so much that the blogger was having problems, *he was having customer service issues.* You can't ignore the fact that there was something going on at his house. However if 90% of his recordings are now black screens, that's something more than the problems we've been reporting here. Someone at DIRECTV should have taken note of that.
> 
> *They could have sent a tech*, for example. They could have sent a replacement. They *could have taken him seriously*, which he didn't think they did. I think that's the real point. *He didn't have a successful customer service experience*.


And at the end of the day, it really was the customer service that pissed me off.

If the HR-20 performs reliably this weekend after the LNB replacement, I'll write my follow up piece.

There are a few issues which I think are contributing to DIRECTV's problems:

1) They had a customer base that was happy with the TiVo platform, and when DirecTV moved to HD technology, they chose to sever that partnership and develop their own software and hardware in-house in the hopes of bringing down the cost of the platform. Meaning they had to re-invent the wheel with the HR series of DVRs, which is naturally going to introduce problems.

When the original standalone SD TiVo's first came out, they were problematic -- I beta tested some of the original ones, didn't like them, and used ReplayTV for a few years until the Microsoft UltimateTVs came out, which I liked (and had their share of issues) but were a total market flop, then eventually migrated to DirecTivos when my UltimateTVs died and the service was discontinued. With the Series 2 the software was pretty much mature and stable. That being said, at the very same time they were as stable as they could be for a Standard Def DVR, DIRECTV rolled out HD service. So when you go from a very stable platform to an unstable one, the natural customer reaction is going to be negative.

2) The BBCs introduce an unnecessary layer of complexity. This problem should have been solved by having the LNBs engineered with the necessary Ka to Ku conversion circuity embedded from day 1. All HR-20 and HR-21 customers that are currently using BBCs should be given new LNBs with the signal conversion electronics embedded to correct the issue.

3) The customer service representatives are poorly trained, have terrible bedside manner, and do not know how to escalate issues properly to technical support.

4) The quality of technical support representative you get at any one time is completely random. Its taken us a number of calls and being milled thru the system a few times to get a technician out to the house and perform diagnostics. This should not be happening.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Jason - I'm glad they finally resolved your problem, and I agree it was the poor customer service with lack of in-depth remote troubleshooting that exacerbated the problem for you, causing much frustration.

I look forward to reading your follow-up piece, but hope you'll touch on some changes that DIRECTV is making to hopefully avoid some technical problems up front, as I referenced in previous posts:



Drew2k said:


> The good news is that BBCs are not needed if the customer uses an SWM multiswitch or the new SWMline satellite dish, and the latest receivers do away with a need for BBCs or even a need for an SWM multiswitch entierely, as the receiver can natively accept all required frequencies. (Generally speaking - others can come along and correct terminology.)





Drew2k said:


> Jason - You shoulld check out this thread in the Installation Forum - pretty soon installers will not be permitted to setup a new dish and activate and receiver and walk away without first verifying through a new process that the signal strengths are where they should be and that the setup is configured properly.
> 
> Intallation Verification
> 
> Hopefully this will make life easier for the customer because they will either have a verified installation or they will be assured that there will be a follow-up visit from a tech to resolve problems with the installation.


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## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

Drew - You should also point out how few customers actually qualify for the SWM dish, and that it's still only available in a small number of markets even after they've been in testing for some time.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Drew - You should also point out how few customers actually qualify for the SWM dish, and that it's still only available in a small number of markets even after they've been in testing for some time.


A fair and valid point. It's taking longer than any of us would like, but at least DIRECTV has plans ... they just need to execute a bit better.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Drew - You should also point out how few customers actually qualify for the SWM dish, and that it's still only available in a small number of markets even after they've been in testing for some time.


Qualifcations are pretty simple. New customers, at least 1 HD box, 5 or more tuners.

It's available in a good number of markets, full nation wide availablity in August.

Only those that are trying to weasel one on an upgrade or a movers connect will dissapointed.

Again, they are currently only being deployed on NEW installs.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

For those interested, here's my follow up:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=9176

Thanks to everyone who helped. I'll definitely be hanging out here a bit and tracking the CE releases.

So far, so good. If I get any more black screens you'll be the first to know.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jason,

Glad to hear you are up an running again .. We look forward to having you around.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Jason,
Great follow-up article on your troubles and the resolution of the bad LNB swap. We've seen a lot of folks visit dbstalk with similar (and not so similar) issues, and most of us do truly make an effort to help. This is the fundamental function of this site and I'm glad you came here for some insight, as well as mentioning Stuart and linking to some of the threads here. Thanks for your writing efforts and we're glad it has worked out for you.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Jason,

I know these guys would never request it, but there were a few folks from the forum (not me) that took a fair amount of time to help you out. It might have been nice if you could have worked their screen names into your follow-up for at least a "tip of the hat." They're what makes dbstallk.com such a valuable resource.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Jason,

Glad you're up and running.

Just a quick comment on #1


> 1) They had a customer base that was happy with the TiVo platform, and when DirecTV moved to HD technology, they chose to sever that partnership and develop their own software and hardware in-house in the hopes of bringing down the cost of the platform. Meaning they had to re-invent the wheel with the HR series of DVRs, which is naturally going to introduce problems.
> 
> When the original standalone SD TiVo's first came out, they were problematic -- I beta tested some of the original ones, didn't like them, and used ReplayTV for a few years until the Microsoft UltimateTVs came out, which I liked (and had their share of issues) but were a total market flop, then eventually migrated to DirecTivos when my UltimateTVs died and the service was discontinued. With the Series 2 the software was pretty much mature and stable. That being said, at the very same time they were as stable as they could be for a Standard Def DVR, DIRECTV rolled out HD service. So when you go from a very stable platform to an unstable one, the natural customer reaction is going to be negative.


While I can't totally disagree, one much remember that the overall number of users that had a DirecTivo was small compared to the overall userbase of DirecTV. Vast majority of people that have been getting a DVR the past 2-3 years have never had one before, Tivo or otherwise. You, me and most on this forum are far from typical users.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

Ken S said:


> Jason,
> 
> I know these guys would never request it, but there were a few folks from the forum (not me) that took a fair amount of time to help you out. It might have been nice if you could have worked their screen names into your follow-up for at least a "tip of the hat." They're what makes dbstallk.com such a valuable resource.


I'll be happy to work it in if someone sends me a list of the screen names... Its a VERY LONG thread. That's why I linked to the actual thread itself.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> I'll be happy to work it in if someone sends me a list of the screen names... Its a VERY LONG thread. That's why I linked to the actual thread itself.


 .. Jason, everything looks to me that this has been a very positive experience for all. The thread link was a good idea and I'm sure a number of people will visit the site and see the results .. I'm sure that most folks will feel duly represented and appreciate the nod even if not mentioned by name.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

I did a terrific job of lurking in this thread. Can I get my props?

Actually, the one who deserves a lot of credit is Jason himself. While he obviously had a vested interest in getting the problem solved, he hung in there and never got mad. He did get righteously frustrated, and many of his takes on the problems with DirecTV are right on, but he never let that get the best of him. Instead, he engaged us, and let this board help him solve his troubles. He stayed with it, keeping a working entertainment system the proper goal, and never let an agenda get in the way.

Congrats, Jason. You'll be a valuable member here. :righton:


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Jason Perlow said:


> I'll be happy to work it in if someone sends me a list of the screen names... Its a VERY LONG thread. That's why I linked to the actual thread itself.


Jason,

That's really up to you. When people help me out I spend the time to thank them. Certainly not a requirement....each person does things in their own way.

Good luck,
Ken


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

Before I switched from my DirecTivo to their HD DVR I took the time to read first. I downloaded the manuals and read extensively here and on SatGuysUS. I knew what to expect/demand from the installer, how to test my equipment, and adjust the dish.

I did this because I already know it is wishful thinking that any CSR will have the knowledge or authority to handle my problem. Could we really afford DirecTV if the level of service some expect/desire was provided? The customer/user needs to take some responsibility to get a good outcome. This applies to your mechanic and doctor as well.

The unknowledgeable customer is at true disadvantage as is the CSR who must diagnose very complex issues over the phone. I also realize that it is unlikely that anyone is equipped with the knowledge needed to deal with everyday life anymore. I have actually printed out TSBs and had to explain them to my mechanic. I mean how many people have you come across with a giant HDTV fed via an old run of RG-59? They just ain't getting what they thought they paid for.


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## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

schneid said:


> Before I switched from my DirecTivo to their HD DVR I took the time to read first. I downloaded the manuals and read extensively here and on SatGuysUS. I knew what to expect/demand from the installer, how to test my equipment, and adjust the dish.
> 
> I did this because I already know it is wishful thinking that any CSR will have the knowledge or authority to handle my problem. Could we really afford DirecTV if the level of service some expect/desire was provided? The customer/user needs to take some responsibility to get a good outcome. This applies to your mechanic and doctor as well.
> 
> The unknowledgeable customer is at true disadvantage as is the CSR who must diagnose very complex issues over the phone. I also realize that it is unlikely that anyone is equipped with the knowledge needed to deal with everyday life anymore. I have actually printed out TSBs and had to explain them to my mechanic. I mean how many people have you come across with a giant HDTV fed via an old run of RG-59? They just ain't getting what they thought they paid for.


Well Said!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

schneid said:


> Before I switched from my DirecTivo to their HD DVR I took the time to read first. I downloaded the manuals and read extensively here and on SatGuysUS. I knew what to expect/demand from the installer, how to test my equipment, and adjust the dish.
> 
> I did this because I already know it is wishful thinking that any CSR will have the knowledge or authority to handle my problem. Could we really afford DirecTV if the level of service some expect/desire was provided? The customer/user needs to take some responsibility to get a good outcome. This applies to your mechanic and doctor as well.
> 
> The unknowledgeable customer is at true disadvantage as is the CSR who must diagnose very complex issues over the phone. I also realize that it is unlikely that anyone is equipped with the knowledge needed to deal with everyday life anymore. I have actually printed out TSBs and had to explain them to my mechanic. I mean how many people have you come across with a giant HDTV fed via an old run of RG-59? They just ain't getting what they thought they paid for.


While I did exactly the same thing prior to upgrading my Directv service, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.

There is no way the average person can be knowledgable about everything in their lives. That's why we pay for people/service providers to do the things we can't do ourselves.

Most of the time, most people do actually get what they pay for. Therefore, it's reasonable for someone to expect that their TV service provider will give pretty much what's expected.

Contrary to what it may seem like when you visit forums, most people have little to no problems with their Directv service. I know 5 other Directv users who are satisified (save one who just bailed for U-verse to get a lower price).

I do think it's *un-reasonable* to expect the average person should be as informed/knowledgable as many of the members of this forum.

Just my 2¢. :grin:

Mike


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

schneid said:


> The unknowledgeable customer is at true disadvantage as is the CSR who must diagnose very complex issues over the phone. I also realize that it is unlikely that anyone is equipped with the knowledge needed to deal with everyday life anymore. I have actually printed out TSBs and had to explain them to my mechanic. I mean how many people have you come across with a giant HDTV fed via an old run of RG-59? They just ain't getting what they thought they paid for.


Yeah, but the thing is, I -did- do a large amount of due diligence when I upgraded to HD DVR service. I knew that the units were somewhat quirky when they were first introduced, I knew I would need to totally upgrade my dish, I knew I would need good quality cabling and good HDMI connections. I knew I was going to need to attach the BBC units when they came with the box, but I didn't fully comprehend what they actually did. I was told I just "needed them" in order to make the setup work, so I took it at face value. Only when we got into this low level troubleshooting did I actually bother to investigate what the kludge they actually are.

Still, even being a "knowledgeable" customer -- and I would say more than "knowledgeable", since I am a writer for the technology industry and I understand how communications satellites work -- I STILL had issues trying to convey to DIRECTV that something was seriously wrong. The problem is at DIRECTV's end, not the uninformed consumer. The diagnostic process needs to be better and the customer support experience needs to be VASTLY improved. As I said, these are appliances. Not computers. The stuff needs to work, period. And when there is a breakdown, such as in the case of my LNBs, the company needs to be responsive to remediate them and identify issues when they occur.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> Only when we got into this low level troubleshooting did I actually bother to investigate what the kludge they actually are.


Each of our experiences shape our opinions, and I'm sure my 30 years working in electronic warfare/reconnaissance, biases mine, but I simply don't understand why you think a BBC is a "kludge". They are simple an up-converter, mounted outside of the receiver, that can be changed out without replacing the receiver.
In the chat room, you expressed your opinion that the SWM should have come out when Ka SATs first started to be used. Following this "plan", we would have needed to wait almost two years to have any new HD channels.
It was only last fall that D10 came on line and BBC started to be needed/used. SWM was just coming out in field testing at that time.

[My two cents]


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

When I contrast my brief experience with D* and my long experience with Oceanic TW cable, I just can't see D* customer service ever getting much better than it is. Because my cable company devotes so many more resources to customer service. They have warehouses of equipment locally, staff multiple branch offices, have their own phone CSRs, their own service personnel and trucks. The few times I had a problem, their approach was to just take charge and do whatever was necessary to fix it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

GregLee said:


> When I contrast my brief experience with D* and my long experience with Oceanic TW cable, I just can't see D* customer service ever getting much better than it is. Because my cable company devotes so many more resources to customer service. They have warehouses of equipment locally, staff multiple branch offices, have their own phone CSRs, their own service personnel and trucks. The few times I had a problem, their approach was to just take charge and do whatever was necessary to fix it.


I know what you mean. My cable company used to be a "mom & pop" company. If there was a problem, I had a local phone number. After hours, the answering service would call the tech at home.
They've been bought out and bought out again. The "larger" company, now won't let anyone call the local office. Should one want to contact them, one needs to drive to the office.
DirecTV has over 17 million customers now.
Training alone for their CSRs, must be astronomical, but still needs to be improved significantly.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> While I did exactly the same thing prior to upgrading my Directv service, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.
> 
> There is no way the average person can be knowledgable about everything in their lives. That's why we pay for people/service providers to do the things we can't do ourselves.
> 
> ...


I am not sure why you disagree. I thought I stated there is no way a person can master all the technology and other issues in their lives. Just reading the EULAs alone would be impossible. Unfortunately, the service people aren't up to snuff either. If you aren't proactive and read up and trouble shoot before first calling the CSR, your chances for a solution are diminished. I would not call unless I understood the feature that wasn't working, done a system test, had done some resets, checked all the sats on both tuners, swap some wires around, and looked for similar problems if I had another receiver. If I had an eSATA I'd see if the problem persisted without it. If I had it stuck in an entertainment center, I give it some fresh air a try. Your goal is to have an answer for and already done everything the CSR is going to read from the script. You goal is to get to some one who is articulate, knowledgeable, and cares sooner rather than later.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Each of our experiences shape our opinions, and I'm sure my 30 years working in electronic warfare/reconnaissance, biases mine, but I simply don't understand why you think a BBC is a "kludge". They are simple an up-converter, mounted outside of the receiver, that can be changed out without replacing the receiver.
> In the chat room, you expressed your opinion that the SWM should have come out when Ka SATs first started to be used. Following this "plan", we would have needed to wait almost two years to have any new HD channels.
> It was only last fall that D10 came on line and BBC started to be needed/used. SWM was just coming out in field testing at that time.
> 
> [My two cents]


I saw an article recently about a call center company that was hiring reps to work their DirecTV contract. It was customer service that would be done from the rep's home. Training was six weeks. Pay was around $7/hour IIRC.

I understand having reps working from home to save costs, but this also pretty much means no communication between reps.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Ken S said:


> I saw an article recently about a call center company that was hiring reps to work their DirecTV contract. It was customer service that would be done from the rep's home. Training was six weeks. Pay was around $7/hour IIRC.
> 
> I understand having reps working from home to save costs, but this also pretty much means no communication between reps.


That is always bad. Plus the fact you can make more money at McDonalds. Heck, minimum wage in Michigan just went up past 7 bucks an hour.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> That is always bad. Plus the fact you can make more money at McDonalds. Heck, minimum wage in Michigan just went up past 7 bucks an hour.


ah.. but no need to wear a paper hat.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

I've got a couple of questions for you Jason. Sorry if they have been asked before.

How long has this issue been going on?

When did you start calling about the issue?

If you had called previously, did they offer to send someone out to look at things?

If they didn't offer, did you ever ask for someone to take a look at it?

From my perspective, if someone had come out when this issue first started, you could have saved yourself a whole lot of frustration.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

RobertE said:


> From my perspective, if someone had come out when this issue first started, you could have saved yourself a whole lot of frustration.


Well put. It's hard for a large company to balance costs with benefits. There was a time when DVRs were swapped out like candy for the least problem. That led to higher costs when the real problem was more often improper setup.

The irony is that a lot of people are pleased with DIRECTV customer service. It's really geared toward the basic user who has basic issues and watches TV in a basic way. It would be great if they could offer "Advanced" customer service, where you could call and get swept past the first two levels of CSR and talk to someone who presumed you knew what you were talking about. The problem is, how would you prove it? Would you have a code? What would keep you from giving that code to others? What if you had brain-fade and the problem ended up being something like you forgot what channel "The Office" was on? Would your code get revoked?

We power users will always have to slog through several levels of support before we get someone more informed than we are. It's our curse. Now, in Jason's case it sounds like he got rougher-than-average treatment, but somehow he did say the magic words and got a site visit.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'll tell you one thing, I'd hate to be the guy they hired to find it.


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

Some companies DO allow you to pay extra to get "gold tech support" or direct access to 2nd/3rd level. Some packages specify US based tech support.

Works by your phone number. When you call, your callerid is looked up in a database. If you're in it, you go directly to the higher level support call center. Otherwise, you go to the 'cheap' one.

It doesnt seem that more intelligence or ability is required to buy the service, just more money.

Having been around with Directv since they were small and halved their service with USSB, and having made forays into cable with comcast and dish network...I have to say that directvs support is better than comcasts and WAY better than dish networks. But its not as good as it used to be 3-4+ years ago.

In the last couple of years its been waiting on hold, pressing 42 buttons, and then getting someone who has absolutely no idea what I'm talking about or how to fix it. A lot of time and patience has to be expended to eventually get to someone who can begin to resolve an issue.

Even some rather simple matters can become ridiculously complicated. I was signed up for autopay and directv charged my card a day later than the day the bill was due, and charged me a late payment fee. Took me 20 minutes of discussion with two people before they grasped that if directv charged my card late, that it was their fault the payment was made late, not mine.

The days of calling in with a reception issue, getting through to someone on the 3rd ring, telling them my problem and having them immediately acknowledge a problem with their equipment, solving it and giving me 3 months of free showtime for my troubles are well behind us...

But this is the way things are now. There is too much competition and people too often buy products and services based on price.

Something has to go.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> We power users will always have to slog through several levels of support before we get someone more informed than we are. It's our curse. Now, in Jason's case it sounds like he got rougher-than-average treatment, but somehow he did say the magic words and got a site visit.
> 
> I don't know what the answer is, but I'll tell you one thing, I'd hate to be the guy they hired to find it.


When I get desperate, I state "CANCEL SERVICE" at the first voice prompt. That used to result in an escalation.


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

RobertE said:


> I've got a couple of questions for you Jason. Sorry if they have been asked before.
> 
> How long has this issue been going on?
> 
> ...


The issue had been going on for several weeks, and my wife had been calling about it for about two weeks. They did not offer to send someone out to look at things.

I will admit that the last thing on my mind was my entire dish LNB assembly going bad. The tuners were working, and some stuff was recording, and given the fact the problems seemed to occur at about the same time as a software update -- Mid June -- I assumed it was the software that was the root of the problem, and *so did their tech support people*, and were simply told_ 'it is a known issue and we are working on it"_. *We did not go through extended diagnostics*, although I admit I personally went through transponder checks about two weeks ago -- on 101, not 103(c). Knowing WHERE to look and fully understanding the nature of the problem was half the battle.

Had I known where to isolate the problem at that time, or had the customer support representative understood we were having HD recording issues and it was specific to the HD channels, and escalated to someone intelligent at tech support, the problem should have been caught as a legit install problem and they should have sent a tech to determine if any of the actual components were at fault.

However I must admit the LNB assembly going south is a bit of a freak issue and probably more out of the ordinary than most people would experience. Unless of course, the LNBs are shoddily built and this happens all the time -- in which case that is a serious problem and it needs to be addressed separately.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well put. It's hard for a large company to balance costs with benefits.


You're saying it's harder for a large company to balance costs with benefits than it is for a small company? I don't see why that should be. Doesn't a large company have more resources -- accountants, system analysts, etc. -- to do that balancing than a small company? If D* has reduced their costs by reducing benefits, that's not a problem of _balance._


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I saw an article recently about a call center company that was hiring reps to work their DirecTV contract. It was customer service that would be done from the rep's home. Training was six weeks. Pay was around $7/hour IIRC.
> 
> I understand having reps working from home to save costs, but this also pretty much means no communication between reps.


Not necessarily a bad thing. I've called various companies many times to only hear background chatter between CSRs discussing parties, when they're taking break, etc, all while I'm trying to listen to the CSR speaking to me. With telecommuting or flexiplace, though, there's no reason to think the home-based CSR won't be just as informed as the office-based CSR, and lots of reasons to think the home-based CSR will pay more attention to the customer without various office distractions (bosses, co-workers, etc.), and also reasons to think the home-based CSR will be happier not to be commuting, happier to be home to see the kids off in the morning and greet the kids in the afternoon. Also, who's to say that more of an emphasis won't be placed on communication between the office and the home, with daily turnover meetings for remote employees, for example?

I'm part of a flexiplace program and love my days home, have access to the office through VPN, teleconferencing, NetMeetings, etc., and can be a lot more productive at home (where I spend 3/4 of the day on the phone) than I can be in the office when everyone wants a piece of me...

I think hiring home-based CSRs could be very successful, but it really depends on how DIRECTV institutes the telecommuting/flexiplace program, their policies, how they train the employees and managers, and how committed to it they are...


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Jason Perlow said:


> -- I assumed it was the software that was the root of the problem, and *so did their tech support people*, and were simply told_ 'it is a known issue and we are working on it"_.


What is somewhat funny and ironic about it is that at least from reading around here and my own experience, usually an issue can be really well documented here and if you call Customer Service they will nearly always tell you that you are first person to call in with that issue.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Drew,

I have no problem with employees working from home. We would do it with various employees...generally though it would occur after they had been working internally for some time. That being said in this case.

It wasn't DirecTV employees it was an outsourced call center contracting with DirecTV. There's always a communications/knowledge issue with outsourced call centers...and now the actual reps are going to be isolated all the more. Yes, I'm sure they're going to have online meetings and email...but successful, quality phone centers require people walking the rows, listening to calls and one on one work with reps. Sometimes a problem can be solved by a few reps talking about similar problems they have heard.

The amount of training and pay are just pitiful...especially when the plan is to then isolate them afterwords.

I've seen these programs in action...you get people sitting in their living rooms on whatever computers they own and share with the rest of their family using their home broadband connection answering re-routed calls on cheap cordless phones and filling in forms on a private website. Some of these people may be very good...but they'll have no real tools to work with....they will be able to answer the phone a certain amount of times an hour....and that's all that matters I guess.

BTW, wait till you get a rep working from home and you hear dogs barking, babies crying, and the TV in the background. It takes a lot of discipline/dedication to work productively from home and at low wage rates you don't always get that. It's also very, very hard to keep up employee morale.

In the end, it will be the quality of support that suffers.

I can't find the ad..but here's an article on the type of program:
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=30475#middle



Drew2k said:


> Not necessarily a bad thing. I've called various companies many times to only hear background chatter between CSRs discussing parties, when they're taking break, etc, all while I'm trying to listen to the CSR speaking to me. With telecommuting or flexiplace, though, there's no reason to think the home-based CSR won't be just as informed as the office-based CSR, and lots of reasons to think the home-based CSR will pay more attention to the customer without various office distractions (bosses, co-workers, etc.), and also reasons to think the home-based CSR will be happier not to be commuting, happier to be home to see the kids off in the morning and greet the kids in the afternoon. Also, who's to say that more of an emphasis won't be placed on communication between the office and the home, with daily turnover meetings for remote employees, for example?
> 
> I'm part of a flexiplace program and love my days home, have access to the office through VPN, teleconferencing, NetMeetings, etc., and can be a lot more productive at home (where I spend 3/4 of the day on the phone) than I can be in the office when everyone wants a piece of me...
> 
> I think hiring home-based CSRs could be very successful, but it really depends on how DIRECTV institutes the telecommuting/flexiplace program, their policies, how they train the employees and managers, and how committed to it they are...


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Lee L said:


> What is somewhat funny and ironic about it is that at least from reading around here and my own experience, usually an issue can be really well documented here and if you call Customer Service they will nearly always tell you that you are first person to call in with that issue.


What Jason is reporting is another CSR trick though. Remember the smart, _lazy_ rep just wants to get the customer off the phone and close out the call. So you report it's a known issue, we're working on it and here's a credit for your trouble. Hopefully...customer happy, call closed quickly.

When you say that's the first time it has been reported you're just asking for the customer to stay on the line longer....that's the last thing you want.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Ken S said:


> What Jason is reporting is another CSR trick though. Remember the smart, _lazy_ rep just wants to get the customer off the phone and close out the call. So you report it's a known issue, we're working on it and here's a credit for your trouble. Hopefully...customer happy, call closed quickly.
> 
> When you say that's the first time it has been reported you're just asking for the customer to stay on the line longer....that's the last thing you want.


LOL. Having worked on a help desk long, long ago I resembled that remark after about 6 months on the job. "yes, rebooting should fix the problem. if not just call back"


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Jason Perlow said:


> However I must admit the LNB assembly going south is a bit of a freak issue and probably more out of the ordinary than most people would experience. Unless of course, the LNBs are shoddily built and this happens all the time -- in which case that is a serious problem and it needs to be addressed separately.


It's pretty rare, but does happen. The problem is that, as you found out, there are about a dozen different things that can cause the same symptoms and bad LNB is something even installers refuse to believe is the problem at times.

My guess is that your wife probably just didn't say the magic words to get a tech out over the 2 weeks she called in about this. Not really her fault. But it is the "trick" of dealing with CSRs at any company. As I mentioned earlier you really need to lead the CSR down the right path in their call tree to get a tech to come out if it's obvious they don't know what's going on. Usually just saying it won't turn on will get you there quickly.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> LOL. Having worked on a help desk long, long ago I resembled that remark after about 6 months on the job. "yes, rebooting should fix the problem. if not just call back"


The solution to a lazy CSR: "Ok, hold on while I reboot so I don't have to call back and wait on hold again."


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Drew,
> 
> I have no problem with employees working from home. We would do it with various employees...generally though it would occur after they had been working internally for some time. That being said in this case.


I missed that this was not a DIRECTV in-house CSR program but was outsourced. I agree that tends to dampen my enthusiasm for it. I also agree with your approach that employees should not immediately be permitted to work at home. This is actually the policy in my office, where you must be senior level to have the option to work at home.



> BTW, wait till you get a rep working from home and you hear dogs barking, babies crying, and the TV in the background. It takes a lot of discipline/dedication to work productively from home and at low wage rates you don't always get that. It's also very, very hard to keep up employee morale.


Wait - that's usually me with my dog barking in the background, or the window open in spring or fall when the landscapers are mowing or leaf-blowing ...


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

Ken S said:


> BTW, wait till you get a rep working from home and you hear dogs barking, babies crying, and the TV in the background.


I turned the blender on once without hitting the mute button on the phone first.

Good news was there were 8 people on the call, so I just kept quiet and let them speculate on what the noise was and who made it, making sure that when someone said "what the heck was THAT?" to make an incredulous sounding "yeah! What WAS that?!?"


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

t_h said:


> I turned the blender on once without hitting the mute button on the phone first.
> 
> Good news was there were 8 people on the call, so I just kept quiet and let them speculate on what the noise was and who made it, making sure that when someone said "what the heck was THAT?" to make an incredulous sounding "yeah! What WAS that?!?"


I can beat that one.

Bathroom.

Conference call.

FLUSH!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jason Perlow said:


> I can beat that one.
> 
> Bathroom.
> 
> ...


 :lol:


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## Jason Perlow (Jul 16, 2008)

By the way, for those of you want to see what it looks like on the cable side of the fence with Tivo HDs and Cable Cards, my friend David Gerwitz at Computing Unplugged Magazine had his own horror story to tell. I think the two of us are cursed.

http://www.computingunplugged.com/issues/issue200806/00002194001.html


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

I wonder sometimes if smart, tech savvy people dont hose themselves out of the gate by understanding whats implied in the marketing of many technology products, expecting them to perform as stated, and making use of the extra 10-20% of functionality that the average joe doesnt.

I just find it humorous when, with 30+ years of technology, computer and media background...I cant get some basic function to work without jumping through hoops and asking people on an internet board for the secret codes.

My wife often remarks "How does ANYONE get this stuff to work?!?"

David had an interesting experience. I disagree with him on two primary points. In one case he suggests that the cable companies should court companies like tivo to increase their business. While the current crop of boxes dont do broadcast, cable AND satellite, the older versions were very effective in providing what was in essence a middleware layer that shielded me from the content provider. I easily replaced directv with cable and then the dreaded dish network, back to cable and back to directv. Same remote control, same UI, same content, different provider. I saw pretty much nothing of the 'provider' component.

Similarly, he contends that a device like tivo will increase a subscribers desire to add more premium channels. I experienced the opposite. When I had no DVR, I needed 500 channels in the hopes that when I plunked myself down to watch something, there'd be something on. Once I had a tivo and it was grabbing me content at 3am, middle of the day, and off of channels I had previously rarely watched...I had more than enough to watch when I wanted to, and dropped a lot of extra channels.

As another aside, part of the reason why many non-tivo DVR products are obscure and obtuse is because the developers have to dance around tivos patents. There are a whole lot of nice things done fairly straightforwardly embedded in those patents, and trying to do something similarly nice and similarly straightforward without violating them is really tricky.


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## ghfiii (Mar 25, 2005)

[rant on]
The real question is, why do we put up with such crappy service from anyone...

This year we moved and went through hell getting our DSL reconnected, spent a month waiting for the Directv installer (in addition to dvr issues) and don't get me started on cell phone service issues, insurance, ...

Why do we put up with it? Because all the big-mega-huge-conglomerates could care less about one dropped customer...and moving to a different big-mega-huge-conglomerate might change the problems you have, but you will still have problems.

They all give lip service to good customer service, but man they all stink.

I program for a small company that will PAY our customer for material that is scrapped when our code #@$+% up. That's right, we get charged back for scrap and we pay it when our code is at fault--and we are talking about potentially tens of thousands of dollars. No ifs, ands, or buts; because we are a small company and losing one customer is a big deal.
[rant off]


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## kimi (Mar 12, 2008)

I spoke with a Dish rep whom I could just not understand over the phone about 2 weeks before my install date. I couldn't understand her because there was a party going on in the background, a baby was crying, and even though she changed rooms, it was no help. I asked to speak with her supervisor because I just couldnt understand her, but she wouldn't transfer me.

Immediately after that conversation I cancelled my Dish install. No way I'm putting up with crap like that. That's not customer service. There's a phrase for it, but I'll not post it.

I'd rather speak to some dude in India.





Ken S said:


> Drew,
> 
> I have no problem with employees working from home. We would do it with various employees...generally though it would occur after they had been working internally for some time. That being said in this case.
> 
> ...


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