# Sinclair Channels Threaten to Leave DISH - Long Term Contract Signed



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

http://dishpromise.com/

*Sinclair Broadcast Group, the Owner of Your Local Station*

We don't understand why Sinclair has chosen to put our customers in the middle of their negotiations at this time. Sinclair is stating DISH may take away one of your local TV stations, which is simply not true.

Sinclair is making outrageous demands - and if they are not met, Sinclair will take away your local TV channel.

Sinclair is using this negotiation tactic to get viewers like you upset, so you put pressure on DISH to accept their contract terms. This isn't the first time they have used this tactic on TV providers; they have routinely threatened or pulled their channels from other TV providers, with their most recent threat being against DirecTV.

In our case, Sinclair is asking DISH to pay nearly a billion dollars in fees for their television channels. This is a massive increase from what we pay Sinclair today, and would ultimately increase your television bill.

Sinclair is also demanding we carry other channels that an overwhelming majority of our customers don't care about. Over the past couple of years, Sinclair spent billions of dollars on these channels, and now they want you to reimburse them for their purchase.

*A little backstory on Sinclair*

In the early 2000s, broadcasters like Sinclair figured out a new way to make more money by charging cable and satellite companies to deliver their free signals to the public. This revenue from broadcasters was a few million dollars in 2006, and has grown to over $12 billion dollars today. What is free to the public, is now a $12 billion industry.

Sinclair has also recently gone on a nearly 10 billion dollar spending spree overpaying for television channels that are losing them a great deal of money; multiple outlets reported on their acquisition. Now they are coming after your money to recoup their losses. Sinclair needs you to pay for their $1.82 billion outstanding bill related to fees they owe to different clubs, and they intend to collect money by raising rates on their other channels to make up that revenue.

For the massive increase in rates Sinclair is demanding, you would think they are making their programming significantly better. They will continue to provide the same programming, it will just cost more.

We still have time to reach an agreement that is fair for you, for Sinclair, and for DISH.


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## renegade (Jul 28, 2011)

Goodbye, then, Sinclair ... it's _your_ revenue to lose.


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## dishrich (Apr 23, 2002)

Yep, today our local Sinclair ABC started running this crawl every hour! 
Totally NO skin off my nose, as I do 99% of local viewing thru my OTA Tivo's - so Sinclair can suck it!!! 








Sinclair Says Dish Network Carriage Deal 'Unlikely'


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## glrush (Jun 29, 2002)

At least Dish customers can "opt out" of the locals, which we DirecTV customers cannot do. I would drop the local networks in a heartbeat given the option; OTA works fine. 

$inclair is the worst.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Somebody please pass out the carriage dispute bingo cards.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

dishrich said:


> Sinclair Says Dish Network Carriage Deal 'Unlikely'


"Sinclair stock took an early beating on Monday, falling as much as low as $29.39 each in morning trading (down 5.2% or $1.61 each). The stock was trading at $29.63 (down 4.4%) at 11:02 a.m. on Aug. 9. Dish shares were relatively stable at $42.30 (up 30 cents each or 1%) in early trading Monday."

In my market Sinclair is CBS and FOX (one station). There are a few programs on each that I watch. I'm not a sports fan so I have no use for the RSNs.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

My parents have been with Dish for years and are interested in switching to something else if it has the channels they care about for less money. Unfortunately, both their local ABC and Fox stations are Sinclair-owned, so I expect they'll get dropped for awhile. They watch ABC a lot. Might finally be time for them to switch to AT&T TV/DirecTV Stream.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Dish Network Expected to Drop 108 TV Stations Impacting 3.5 Million Subscribers in 38% of the Country - Sinclair Broadcast Group

Baltimore, MD (August 9, 2021) -Sinclair Broadcast Group, Inc. (Nasdaq: SBGI), the "Company" or "Sinclair," announced today that it is unlikely that a carriage agreement with DISH Network will be reached before the August 16, 2021 expiration of their current agreement for DISH's carriage of Sinclair's broadcast stations and Tennis Channel. As a result, all Sinclair broadcast TV stations (see list below) and Tennis Channel would no longer be carried by DISH Network. In total, 108 broadcast TV stations are expected to be dropped, including 97 ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC affiliates.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> My parents have been with Dish for years and are interested in switching to something else if it has the channels they care about for less money. Unfortunately, both their local ABC and Fox stations are Sinclair-owned, so I expect they'll get dropped for awhile. They watch ABC a lot. Might finally be time for them to switch to AT&T TV/DirecTV Stream.


You COULD get them setup with an OTA antenna so they can continue to get ABC and FOX.... ( and add OTA tuner to their DIsh receiver, or at least hook it up to their TV antenna input).


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

scooper said:


> You COULD get them setup with an OTA antenna so they can continue to get ABC and FOX.... ( and add OTA tuner to their DIsh receiver, or at least hook it up to their TV antenna input).


I do have an indoor antenna connected to the main TV they use but it doesn't pick up VHF 9 (which has ABC on 9.1 and Fox on 9.2) well at all. I'd really need to mount an outdoor antenna on their roof. Maybe I could have that signal run over the same coax that the Dish signal runs on, combining it and then splitting it back out using diplexers. But even if I did all that, the OTA channels would have to be viewed live via the TV's internal tuner like we're living back in the 1970s. They wouldn't be integrated into their Dish DVRs without buying the MT2 OTA plug-in module for their old pre-Hopper receivers. Looks like someone has a few available on Amazon for $41.

All in all, just doesn't seem like a good move. If they roll out the 2nd-gen streaming box and maybe add one or two missing channels when AT&T TV rebrands as DIRECTV Stream later this month, and assuming their ABC and Fox stations go dark for awhile on Dish, I'd say there's a good chance they'll switch from Dish and Comcast internet over to DIRECTV Stream and AT&T Fiber. Their overall monthly cost will go down a bit and they'll get $450 cash back.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

We're at our upstate NY site for a few more weeks, and will lose the Albany, NY CBS outlet unless an agreement is reached. We do get the station OTA pretty well, so it's not an issue for local programming. For network programming, we also get the Burlington, VT CBS non-Sinclair station, so no issues there at all. I hope Dish holds out for a reasonable deal and continues to refuse the RSN's. As Charlie said, we have more options now...


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## Richl (May 6, 2006)

What percentage increase is Sinclair wanting?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Richl said:


> What percentage increase is Sinclair wanting?


We won't ever really know, only what each side says - and they both could be correct. The big thing Sinclair will be pressing for is to get the RSNs that they paid a fortune for back on Dish, at as high a premium price as possible.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

It isn't 2000 any longer. Most people out there have other options. Either OTA or streaming. Locast is a great deal for $5 a month to get your locals in several markets. Plus there are other streaming services that have the basic locals. Used to be if we lost a local, we would have to wait it out, go to Direct, or Cable. Now there are more options for many people. I know there are areas with poor internet speeds, but those areas are getting less. Before 2013 we had no high speed out where I live along the Oregon Coast, other than Hughes satellite, which was spendy.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I put up an antenna for my MIL who has DISH, and she is happy to save the $12 a month.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

We just got Dish installed on Friday and looks like my wife is about to lose her General Hospital!

However, not too worried as she can watch it a night later on Hulu. That, and Judge Judy, is about all we watch on that station, and Judy is all reruns now.

Too hilly and too far away for OTA here.


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## AZ. (Mar 27, 2011)

Add this to the list of why monopolies are bad....


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

It seems that carriage of their Bally Sports networks is part of the deal and that's probably the big problem. I get my locals OTA and don't subscribe to them via Dish so Sinclair doesn't get any of my money anyway. BTW, this only affects the 112 Sinclair-owned TV stations and not the stations that they don't own, but operate as the companies that own them are required to make separate carriage deals.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

scooper said:


> We won't ever really know, only what each side says - and they both could be correct. The big thing Sinclair will be pressing for is to get the RSNs that they paid a fortune for back on Dish, at as high a premium price as possible.


The funny part is that those RSN's had already been removed from Dish before Sinclair bought them. So, it is not like Dish suddenly pulled the rug out from under them. Sinclair knew going into the deal that Dish was not going to carry those channels. Therefore, Sinclair should have budgeted for that. If carriage on Dish was so important in order for Sinclair to be able to afford to buy and operate those RSN's, then perhaps Sinclair should not have bought them in the first place.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Our local Sinclair station has an article on their website quoting nearly word for word the Sinclair press release. The link to the article refers to the story as "our station's response" as if the article came from local people and not the corporate monolith. The article gives detailed instructions on how to cancel DISH and how to sign up for DIRECTV, including contact numbers. So much for being partners in delivering content to the community.

I have good OTA reception. I probably won't bother watching all of the CBS and FOX shows I normally would see (and their commercials). There are only a couple shows that I would miss.


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## glrush (Jun 29, 2002)

And, of course, when DirecTV went through this same exercise with $inclair several years ago, $inclair told DirecTV customers to sign up for Dish. 

These people really are the worst.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

My MIL has DISH and watches a local Sinclair station. She saw the scroll. I think she has a hopper. Is there a way to hook an OTA antenna to it, or do I need to install the antenna and hook it to her TV and have her switch inputs?


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Davenlr said:


> My MIL has DISH and watches a local Sinclair station. She saw the scroll. I think she has a hopper. Is there a way to hook an OTA antenna to it, or do I need to install the antenna and hook it to her TV and have her switch inputs?


If you get the OTA adapter for the Hopper, you can connect the antenna to that and integrate the OTA channels right into the DVR.

https://my.dish.com/support/products/receivers/hopper/how-to/receiver-to-ota

You can find them online for sale around $50 but I'd contact DISH's help line on your MIL's behalf and ask them if they'll send her one for free, or at a reduced cost, since she'll be affected by the Sinclair blackout.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

DIsh might even offer her an OTA antenna setup since she is impacted by this. Can't hurt to ask....


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

I have the AirTV dual tuner OTA adapter on my Hopper 3.

It is the same internally as the one Dish sells but it is only $30 and has a white plastic case instead of the black one Dish uses.

OTA channels appear in the guide just like the satellite channels do, all you have to do is connect the appropriate antenna to the USB OTA tuner and scan for locals.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

I do have the OTA tuner in the 211k, but the guide on several of the channels show the wrong guide. I had the Fire Cube, so I bought the recast that does give me the correct guide for 2 weeks. It also has the built in 500GB HDD. The Recast I have is dual tuner. I could have purchased the 4 tuner, but there isn't that much OTA I am interested in that would require anymore than the dual tuner unit. We have 27 OTA offerings here. If a person does have free OTA, we have options. 
What really gets me that all of these OTA stations offer their channel(s) for free. So why are they demanding so much to offer it on satellite or cable? I know, because the broadcasters can get it. If the pricing keeps going up, then no service will be offering locals any longer. I was hoping with these disputes, either station(s) would remain on Dish during the dispute or we would get an out of market network to cover the loss. It was better in some ways when we only had East/West locals.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

glrush said:


> And, of course, when DirecTV went through this same exercise with $inclair several years ago, $inclair told DirecTV customers to sign up for Dish.
> 
> These people really are the worst.


Funny enough, Dish had already removed the RSN's before then. So at the time, Sinclair was actually recommending that their viewers (on DirecTV) switch to a provider (Dish) that does not carry their RSN's, just to get their locals. Seems to me that Sinclair should be satisfied just to maintain the status quo on Dish now, in that case.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Davenlr said:


> My MIL has DISH and watches a local Sinclair station. She saw the scroll. I think she has a hopper. Is there a way to hook an OTA antenna to it, or do I need to install the antenna and hook it to her TV and have her switch inputs?


This is the adapter you want: Products | AirTV
(Scroll down and you will see it in the middle of the bottom row of products.)

That is the one I use with my Hopper 3, and it works great! AirTV ships using UPS, so you should receive it within a couple days after ordering it.



NashGuy said:


> You can find them online for sale around $50 but I'd contact DISH's help line on your MIL's behalf and ask them if they'll send her one for free, or at a reduced cost, since she'll be affected by the Sinclair blackout.


Your odds of getting Dish to send the OTA adapter for free improve greatly *after* the channels actually get dropped. Of course, that means that you have to go without the channels in your DVR for a little while, until the adapter is delivered. If you want to be prepared *before* the channels get removed, get the $29.99 adapter from AirTV now.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Yea, they wouldnt give me a free one, so I just ordered one off Amazon. Also ordered an antenna that mounts on the dish pole. 
Now, is there an adapter than combines the antenna and dish on the same coax, or am I going to have to run a second RG6 run?

I ordered this one:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MZG9SON/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Davenlr said:


> Yea, they wouldnt give me a free one, so I just ordered one off Amazon. Also ordered an antenna that mounts on the dish pole.
> Now, is there an adapter than combines the antenna and dish on the same coax, or am I going to have to run a second RG6 run?
> 
> I ordered this one:
> Amazon.com: DUAL OTA ADAPTER FOR HOPPER/WALLY : Electronics


I've seen posts before saying that DBS and OTA signals can be joined via a diplexer to run over the same coax, then split back out at the end via another diplexer for connection to their respective devices.

https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Diplexer-Splitters-Satellite-Approved/dp/B00JJ10V8C/

Hopefully someone else on here who's actually done it can confirm or provide additional details if necessary.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Not in the case of a Hopper - no diplexors allowed. I've asked this one from Tech Support and basically - there is no frequency space available. OTA on separate cable from Dish. I wanted to do this to a Super Joey and was told no.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

Davenlr said:


> Yea, they wouldnt give me a free one, so I just ordered one off Amazon. Also ordered an antenna that mounts on the dish pole.
> Now, is there an adapter than combines the antenna and dish on the same coax, or am I going to have to run a second RG6 run?
> 
> I ordered this one:
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MZG9SON/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


The identical adapter in white from AirTV at the link Crod posted would have saved you some money.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Perhaps, but with Amazon I get it tomorrow with free shipping and 5% cash back


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

Davenlr said:


> Perhaps, but with Amazon I get it tomorrow with free shipping and 5% cash back


Ok, if that saved you at least $15. As I recall, my AirTV adapter arrived in 2-3 days.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH made the EPG adjustments today ... OTA channels are now getting separate EPG from the via satellite channels. That will allow OTA EPG to continue once the via satellite channels are taken down.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> The link to the article refers to the story as "our station's response" as if the article came from local people and not the corporate monolith.


They've likely done this in the hopes that the public doesn't seek help from their Congressional representatives. This is a broad blackout that probably doesn't matter much now but will if it lasts into the fall.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Davenlr said:


> Now, is there an adapter than combines the antenna and dish on the same coax, or am I going to have to run a second RG6 run?


A second run is going to be a lot less confusing in the long run. Diplexing is possible if there are no Joeys involved but it may cause unforeseen heartburn down the road.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Im just going to run a new line. Ive got 1000' roll to use up, might as well use it. Found out I can actually walk under the house through a door, and run the coax across the floor (ceiling) and up through a hole, so it will be a walk in the park in the dark.

Ill just wire tie the new coax to the dish coax. Going to mount the mini-yagi under the dish on the same pipe.


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

Once you get OTA working, you can drop locals and $inclair and all of the other large station owners don’t get your money. I can’t stand Sinclair for their slanted news and sometimes lies. I’ve been tempted to switch my Fox DVR recordings from the Baltimore Sinclair owned Fox station to the Fox owned station in DC.


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

I remember hearing that Dish loses money on locals. If that’s true, why don’t they just make the OTA modules built into their receivers, encourage their customers to get OTA (while plugging their installation service) and let people know they can save on their monthly bill by dropping OTA? It would be a win for the customers, who don’t have to pay for the locals, a win for Dish that doesn’t lose as much money on locals, a boost to Dish’s antenna installation service and fewer of their customers will be affected if a channel goes dark.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

jsk said:


> I remember hearing that Dish loses money on locals. If that's true, why don't they just make the OTA modules built into their receivers, encourage their customers to get OTA (while plugging their installation service) and let people know they can save on their monthly bill by dropping OTA?


An alternative question would be: why doesn't Dish just raise the price of the locals package? Of course, then Dish would have to increase the amount of savings for those who choose to drop them. I suspect that at the time the locals were broken out as a separate line item, the actual savings to the customer should have been much more than the $10 (later and still currently $12) that Dish provides. So, Dish still gets to pocket some money from subscribers who choose to drop locals, by not lowering their bills by the full amount that the locals actually cost Dish to carry. This offsets any losses from subscribers who still pay the rate (if my theory is correct, *reduced* rate) for locals who are not paying their fair share. Keep in mind that the Locals package by itself is *$15* for those who were impacted by COVID and dropped to that Locals Only core package, while everyone else still pays $12 for locals as an add-on.



jsk said:


> ...and fewer of their customers will be affected if a channel goes dark.


Also keep in mind that Hopper customers who drop the satellite locals also lose access to the PTAT feature, and lose access to On Demand content from the networks that Dish still carries in their market. Another drawback is the OTA adapter only allows up to two OTA channels to be watched or recorded at the same time. So, if you need more than two OTA channels simultaneously, you are out of luck. The only way this idea may work is if Dish builds in at least a *four-tuner* OTA module for their receivers. Even then, building in this module to the newer receivers also adds the cost of equipment upgrades for existing customers with older receivers who would like to use the four-tuner module. Building it in would also make these new receivers more expensive for those who wish to purchase them (for other reasons / other new features) but do not wish to use OTA.


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## barnabas (Apr 4, 2008)

crodrules said:


> The funny part is that those RSN's had already been removed from Dish before Sinclair bought them. So, it is not like Dish suddenly pulled the rug out from under them. Sinclair knew going into the deal that Dish was not going to carry those channels. Therefore, Sinclair should have budgeted for that. If carriage on Dish was so important in order for Sinclair to be able to afford to buy and operate those RSN's, then perhaps Sinclair should not have bought them in the first place.


And trust me dish new they were gonna bundle the sports networks when the contract was up


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## barnabas (Apr 4, 2008)

barnabas said:


> And trust me dish new they were gonna bundle the sports networks when the contract was up


And just realized they surely want marquee network in there as well pretty sure Sinclair stations may ne er return to dish network


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

barnabas said:


> And trust me dish new they were gonna bundle the sports networks when the contract was up


In theory, Dish could have went ahead and agreed to a long-term contract to carry the sports networks at any time, while still continuing to carry the broadcast locals under the current contract, if Dish truly wanted to make sure that the two groups of channels stayed unbundled.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

jsk said:


> I remember hearing that Dish loses money on locals. If that's true, why don't they just make the OTA modules built into their receivers, encourage their customers to get OTA (while plugging their installation service) and let people know they can save on their monthly bill by dropping OTA? It would be a win for the customers, who don't have to pay for the locals, a win for Dish that doesn't lose as much money on locals, a boost to Dish's antenna installation service and fewer of their customers will be affected if a channel goes dark.


Dish has three choices (1) Raise the local package price (2) Continue to lose money on locals, trying to pick up the loss elsewhere or (3) drop locals and let the viewer find them elsewhere (If available). The 3rd option may not be a great idea as some good paying customers may not be able to get OTA, so that will drive them to Direct or cable. Some with high speed internet may get locals via Locast, but even that has limitations. Locast has no DVR option, so if a customer want DVR via Locast, they have to go after a third party like Plex or Stremium. Those aren't free either. So I feel is Dish was to drop locals, then they would lose a lot of customers. Dish is really stuck between a rock and a hard spot. My suggestion is to raise the price on locals and let the ones wanting locals to just pay for them. After all, Dish does sell Locals separately. The customer doesn't have to buy them if they do not want to.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> > The link to the article refers to the story as "our station's response" as if the article came from local people and not the corporate monolith.
> ...


It is one of the lies that Sinclair likes to tell. Inserting must use national stories into their local news by sending must read scripts to stations. Read by your local anchor as if it were the station's own reporting when it is simply propaganda from the monolith.

Every time I hear Sinclair say "local" I cringe since so much of their programming is driven from the national company. One of our other local stations advertises against their use of national opinion stories.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jsk said:


> I remember hearing that Dish loses money on locals. If that's true, why don't they just make the OTA modules built into their receivers, encourage their customers to get OTA (while plugging their installation service) and let people know they can save on their monthly bill by dropping OTA? It would be a win for the customers, who don't have to pay for the locals, a win for Dish that doesn't lose as much money on locals, a boost to Dish's antenna installation service and fewer of their customers will be affected if a channel goes dark.


DISH does encourage OTA usage ... they are beyond building tuners into deployed receivers (one module can be added via USB). Perhaps the next generation can return to a built in tuner but when ATSC 3.0 rolls out they need a tuner that works. Replacing a USB dongle would be cheaper.

Pushing people away from buying locals through dish just increases the amount DISH loses. Supporting a local receive center, fiber backhaul network and uplink centers (ongoing costs) does not get any cheaper with less subscribers. The cost stays the same whether there are 100 local channel subscribers in the market or 100 million. The loss comes from paying local stations more for the right to carry their channels than they are collecting from subscribers.

Unfortunately subscribers expect to have local channels available and not offering locals can put DISH at a competitive disadvantage. "Losses" become loss leaders to get people to subscribe. Overall DISH still makes money off of selling subscriptions. Not as much as DIRECTV made back when DIRECTV was still reporting numbers (DISH kept their profits at about half of what DIRECTV made per customer).



crodrules said:


> An alternative question would be: why doesn't Dish just raise the price of the locals package?
> . . .
> Keep in mind that the Locals package by itself is *$15* for those who were impacted by COVID and dropped to that Locals Only core package, while everyone else still pays $12 for locals as an add-on.


There are base costs for maintaining an account. I doubt the $3 extra covers all of the costs involved in keeping an account active. Another "loss leader".



mwdxer said:


> Dish has three choices (1) Raise the local package price (2) Continue to lose money on locals, trying to pick up the loss elsewhere or (3) drop locals and let the viewer find them elsewhere (If available).


DISH has chosen to allow customers to opt out of locals ... which is Option 3 on an a la carte basis. What DISH cannot do under current law is charge separately for some locals. If one local they carry in a market is delivered to a customer all locals they carry in that market are delivered to that customer. Affected by Federal law. DISH can't say "Sinclair wants $50 each month for their channel, if you want to pay that you can - otherwise here are the rest of your local stations". The decision to carry affects all subscribers. They either pay Sinclair their ransom for all subscribers in the market or don't carry the Sinclair channel.

Huge station groups like Sinclair extend that "carry one, carry all" nationwide (although not supported by Federal law). The contract won't allow DISH to choose to carry Sinclair stations in one market while not carrying other markets and so far the FCC, courts and Congress have not intervened. A few years ago one of the other station groups used national leverage to get their channels carried in some markets where they were not protected by law. Sinclair's ask that DISH carry the non-local broadcast RSNs to have access to local stations should raise a red flag at the FCC, courts and Congress. Sometimes it is easier to pay the ransom than fight.

I wonder how DISH's decision to allow their customers to opt out is affecting their negotiations. Cable systems cannot let their customers opt out - locals are required in all levels of programming (the cable company can still refuse to carry individual stations that charge). DISH openly offering a "do not pay" option (while still providing EPG information for the OTA feeds and limited OTA reception) cuts in to the total number of subscribers Sinclair would have and cuts in to the total ransom that they want to collect.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

James Long said:


> DISH does encourage OTA usage ... they are beyond building tuners into deployed receivers (one module can be added via USB). Perhaps the next generation can return to a built in tuner but when ATSC 3.0 rolls out they need a tuner that works. Replacing a USB dongle would be cheaper.
> 
> Pushing people away from buying locals through dish just increases the amount DISH loses. Supporting a local receive center, fiber backhaul network and uplink centers (ongoing costs) does not get any cheaper with less subscribers. The cost stays the same whether there are 100 local channel subscribers in the market or 100 million. The loss comes from paying local stations more for the right to carry their channels than they are collecting from subscribers.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed explanation. Dish does have the option to over all raise the price of locals though. For instance, what is the charge now $15? They can raise them to $20 across the board if they need to. That way the people that want them can still buy them. That would cover their loses and still would make the viewer happy to still have them. These long periods of "dropping" a local, just ticks the viewer off. Many go elsewhere every time there is a long dispute. I wonder how many people left when Dish lost HBO/Cinemax? Losing channels like True Crime or Z Living doesn't amount to anything. Both of those channels can be found for free elsewhere anyway and how many viewers do they have? But in the NW Both KATU/KOMO are ABC stations. Many watch ABC. Could Dish import another ABC station in the meantime? Or it that not allowed either? But any we do have more options if the person has high speed internet.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

In my opinion, the most important goal should be to keep the price paid to the local station down as much as possible. As long as the outage leads to paying the station less I will accept it. (Although terms are never revealed so there is no way to say for sure if DISH actually gets a lower rate by holding firm.) If one has a policy to "never turn off a channel" that gives the power to the local station (and the corporate owners). With a "never turn off a channel" policy what would one do if a local station asked for $10 per subscriber and would not budge until after the previous contract expired (and the channels dropped)? A strict "never turn off a channel" policy is unworkable.

AT&T|DIRECTV lost 34% of the subscribers they had when HBO was last on DISH. DISH lost 10% of their subscribers over the same time period. Yes, some of those people left over HBO/Cinemax. Some left over the loss of RSNs HBO made it easy to keep DISH and subscribe to HBO on the side. One reason why DISH didn't want to agree to HBO's terms (requiring a minimum number of subscribers while making it easier for subscribers to leave for a non-MVPD subscription). Losing channels hurts ... but DISH must be doing something right not to be at the same loss levels as DIRECTV.

Importing a competing station is generally not allowed. If there is an ABC station in the market that would prevent DISH from bringing in another ABC (unless that other station was also in the market or had "significantly viewed" status). The laws protect the affiliation contracts the local station signed. KATU is paying ABC to be the exclusive method of receiving ABC programming in a defined area. They "own" the rights in that area.


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## bills976 (Jun 30, 2002)

The folks who are out of luck with this one are rural or terrain-challenged customers without access to OTA.

This has probably discussed elsewhere, but I suspect as streaming has taken hold, the percentage of Dish's customer base without reliable broadband has risen. I think that's part of Sinclair's strategy here - that many of these customers don't have any other options besides Dish or DirecTV. Using the RSNs as leverage to get increased fees for networks using public airwaves is despicable, but that's the current state of things.

When broadcasts like NFL football start getting blacked out, that's when the pressure from the politicians will come and I suspect we'll see some resolution.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mwdxer said:


> Dish does have the option to over all raise the price of locals though. For instance, what is the charge now $15? They can raise them to $20 across the board if they need to.


This only works if the station is willing to negotiate on a per-subscriber basis. I'm betting that this isn't the case. Stations like their predictable income streams.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> My suggestion is to raise the price on locals and let the ones wanting locals to just pay for them. After all, Dish does sell Locals separately. The customer doesn't have to buy them if they do not want to.


This may work *if* the locals get unbundled from the remaining Dish packages that still force them onto subscribers. Welcome Pack still automatically includes locals, for instance. The lowest-tier Latino package is the same way. My sister currently has Welcome Pack, and she is considering dropping Dish entirely. The bill has simply gotten too high. Adding the option of dropping the locals would certainly help retain subscribers at this level of service.

I wonder if this bundling was required by Dish's negotiations with the local broadcasters. In other words, Dish guaranteed that every subscriber with the lowest-tier of service would receive the local channels. The loophole is that Dish did not guarantee that any subscriber in any tier above the lowest level would receive the locals.



mwdxer said:


> Could Dish import another ABC station in the meantime? Or it that not allowed either?


It is allowed under very limited circumstances, and Dish is doing exactly that in the Zanesville market, for example. If the market lacks an in-market affiliate, then Dish imports an affiliate from a nearby market. Currently, the ABC affiliate usually provided in Zanesville (Sinclair-owned WSYX from Columbus) is being replaced by a non-Sinclair ABC affiliate from Cleveland (WEWS) in the Zanesville package. Zanesville's only in-market network affiliate is NBC WHIZ. All other networks are imported for the Zanesville local package.

Dish is also in a long-standing dispute with WHIZ, which has removed NBC from the Zanesville package for years. Since Dish does not carry the only in-market station, it makes me wonder how Dish is still allowed to offer locals in the Zanesville market at all. I suppose as long as Dish continues to negotiate for WHIZ, while still carrying any other "must carry" stations (maybe one PBS station at most) that still shows a "good faith" effort on Dish's part to serve that market. As it is, at the moment only one network affiliate that traditionally serves Zanesville is still being provided as part of that package (the imported CBS WBNS from Columbus). The Sinclair-owned Fox from Columbus has also been replaced by non-Sinclair WJW from Cleveland.


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## John Plopperstein (Aug 12, 2021)

James - I noticed on the uplink activity list a ton of channels had 'market Hidden – OTA Mapping Removed'. Spot checking a bunch of them, seemed to be all Sinclair-owned. Is this premptive to a blackout?


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

John Plopperstein said:


> James - I noticed on the uplink activity list a ton of channels had 'market Hidden - OTA Mapping Removed'. Spot checking a bunch of them, seemed to be all Sinclair-owned. Is this premptive to a blackout?


Yes. Dish also uplinked a bunch of separate OTA guide data streams for those same stations, while removing the OTA guide link from the satellite-delivered versions. This allows OTA viewers to continue to receive guide data, while the satellite-delivered station's guide data is replaced by the dispute message.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> Dish is also in a long-standing dispute with WHIZ, which has removed NBC from the Zanesville package for years. Since Dish does not carry the only in-market station, it makes me wonder how Dish is still allowed to offer locals in the Zanesville market at all.


DISH is required to OFFER carriage and they do. DISH is not allowed to carry channels that refuse to be carried. DISH can continue to carry stations that do agree to be carried, even if a channel in the market refuses carriage.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

James Long said:


> In my opinion, the most important goal should be to keep the price paid to the local station down as much as possible. As long as the outage leads to paying the station less I will accept it. (Although terms are never revealed so there is no way to say for sure if DISH actually gets a lower rate by holding firm.) If one has a policy to "never turn off a channel" that gives the power to the local station (and the corporate owners). With a "never turn off a channel" policy what would one do if a local station asked for $10 per subscriber and would not budge until after the previous contract expired (and the channels dropped)? A strict "never turn off a channel" policy is unworkable.
> 
> AT&T|DIRECTV lost 34% of the subscribers they had when HBO was last on DISH. DISH lost 10% of their subscribers over the same time period. Yes, some of those people left over HBO/Cinemax. Some left over the loss of RSNs HBO made it easy to keep DISH and subscribe to HBO on the side. One reason why DISH didn't want to agree to HBO's terms (requiring a minimum number of subscribers while making it easier for subscribers to leave for a non-MVPD subscription). Losing channels hurts ... but DISH must be doing something right not to be at the same loss levels as DIRECTV.
> 
> Importing a competing station is generally not allowed. If there is an ABC station in the market that would prevent DISH from bringing in another ABC (unless that other station was also in the market or had "significantly viewed" status). The laws protect the affiliation contracts the local station signed. KATU is paying ABC to be the exclusive method of receiving ABC programming in a defined area. They "own" the rights in that area.


At least today, the viewer has more options. Years ago it was a big deal to change from Dish to Direct or Cable with installers. Now, most the main nets are available OTA or streaming from a source.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Locast is a decent option where available ... and the app is on DISH's Hopper!


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

No Go for Locast in KC....


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

scooper said:


> No Go for Locast in KC....


Unfortunately Locast is not in every metro area as yet, but they are adding cities often. It took a while to get Portland. They added Seattle some time before.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

glrush said:


> At least Dish customers can "opt out" of the locals, which we DirecTV customers cannot do. I would drop the local networks in a heartbeat given the option; OTA works fine.
> 
> $inclair is the worst.


You won't be able to opt out of the RSNs if they come back though


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

JosephB said:


> You won't be able to opt out of the RSNs if they come back though


What, you mean that they will be force-bundled into Welcome Pack, Smart Pack, Flex Pack, Locals Only Core, International Basic, Chinese Basic...? (I could go on...) Now, if you mean that you won't be able to opt out of *paying* for the RSN's, that may be a different matter entirely. The rumor (from Dish's press release) at the time that the RSN's were dropped was that they had been asking for *all* Dish subscribers in their market to *pay* for them, whether each subscriber actually *receives* their RSN's or not.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Once I get this OTA adapter set up...if she calls Dish and opts for the $12 discount for turning off locals, will Dish still send guide data for them for the OTA antenna? No sense paying for them when they are free, assuming she will still get the guide data.


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## krel (Mar 20, 2013)

though i am not a dish sub i can get the locals via ota or locast so i would say that Sinclair can suck it there loss..


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Davenlr said:


> Once I get this OTA adapter set up...if she calls Dish and opts for the $12 discount for turning off locals, will Dish still send guide data for them for the OTA antenna? No sense paying for them when they are free, assuming she will still get the guide data.


Yes, guide data will remain. I still get OTA guide data on my deactivated purchased Hopper 3, with no Dish subscription at all.


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## bjdotson (Feb 20, 2007)

I have what is probably stupid questions, but keep in mind that I had DirecTV for over 20 years. Just recently moved into an apartment that was hardwired for dish network and have a hopper and a joey. The Local Sinclair station is CBS which is the majority of shows wife and I watch. I can't up a pole or anything at my apartment. So what would I have to do to get my local channels over the air.


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## AZ. (Mar 27, 2011)

bjdotson said:


> I have what is probably stupid questions, but keep in mind that I had DirecTV for over 20 years. Just recently moved into an apartment that was hardwired for dish network and have a hopper and a joey. The Local Sinclair station is CBS which is the majority of shows wife and I watch. I can't up a pole or anything at my apartment. So what would I have to do to get my local channels over the air.


Have options....Get a OTA usb tuner....Does your TV have a built in tuner?....There are many real good amplified antennas out their!
Mohu Leaf 50 Antenna Review 2021 | CableTV.com


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## Abe12 (Jun 11, 2020)

Have been reading this link and the dish statement. I noticed in Mpls only the CW channel would lose. Question? Does Sinclair want the RSN's (Minnesota Twins & Minnesota Timberwolves) back on Dish in this agreement or is this pretty much a different negotion that doesn't really affect the sports RSN's?

Also, do you see any chance that this all comes together with a total agreement of everything back on the air? (In your opinion of course)


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

bjdotson said:


> I have what is probably stupid questions, but keep in mind that I had DirecTV for over 20 years. Just recently moved into an apartment that was hardwired for dish network and have a hopper and a joey. The Local Sinclair station is CBS which is the majority of shows wife and I watch. I can't up a pole or anything at my apartment. So what would I have to do to get my local channels over the air.


Do you live in a market where Locast is available?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

bjdotson said:


> I have what is probably stupid questions, but keep in mind that I had DirecTV for over 20 years. Just recently moved into an apartment that was hardwired for dish network and have a hopper and a joey. The Local Sinclair station is CBS which is the majority of shows wife and I watch. I can't up a pole or anything at my apartment. So what would I have to do to get my local channels over the air.


You would need to find out how close you are to the TV station's transmitter. If it is nearby you won't need much of an antenna.

AntennaWeb Signal Prediction is a good place to start to find your local stations.


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## bjdotson (Feb 20, 2007)

James Long said:


> You would need to find out how close you are to the TV station's transmitter. If it is nearby you won't need much of an antenna.
> 
> AntennaWeb Signal Prediction is a good place to start to find your local stations.


Most station transmitters less then 30 miles; plus we live in a valley and most of the transmitters are on a mountaintop.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Call DISH and get the OTA tuner module ... they may send you one and an antenna for free (although that may not be available until the channels actually leave the system). There is no guarantee that they will do that this time but they have made that offer in the past.


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## bjdotson (Feb 20, 2007)

James Long said:


> Call DISH and get the OTA tuner module ... they may send you one and an antenna for free (although that may not be available until the channels actually leave the system). There is no guarantee that they will do that this time but they have made that offer in the past.


Thank you, I will make the call once they go dark. Hopefully, not necessary but I think likely to happen. Appreciate the help.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

bjdotson said:


> Thank you, I will make the call once they go dark. Hopefully, not necessary but I think likely to happen. Appreciate the help.


Unbend a paper clip straight. If RF connector points straight out the back then Bend a 3/4" 90 degree angle at one end. Wrap long remaining section with electrical or masking tape. Insert 3/4" section into the RF jack center hole on your TV. Go into TV setup and run a channel scan. If you get most of the stations, you will know that the flat antenna will work well. You might not even need one. The paper clip works pretty well unless you're missing station happens to be on a VHF channel.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

James Long said:


> Our local Sinclair station has an article on their website quoting nearly word for word the Sinclair press release. The link to the article refers to the story as "our station's response" as if the article came from local people and not the corporate monolith. The article gives detailed instructions on how to cancel DISH and how to sign up for DIRECTV, including contact numbers. So much for being partners in delivering content to the community.
> 
> I have good OTA reception. I probably won't bother watching all of the CBS and FOX shows I normally would see (and their commercials). There are only a couple shows that I would miss.


What Sinclair doesn't tell you is once the Direct contract is up to renew, they will be forced to pay the same fees, if not more. Direct will have to make the decision to either pay up and raise the price to their subscribers or go through the same dispute. Since "Locals" are included with their packages and the sub cannot purchase them separately, Direct probably will just have an increase and add a buck or two. The subscriber probably would not bulk. After all the Direct is more expensive and their subs are willing to pay it .


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

mwdxer said:


> What Sinclair doesn't tell you is once the Direct contract is up to renew, they will be forced to pay the same fees, if not more. Direct will have to make the decision to either pay up and raise the price to their subscribers or go through the same dispute. Since "Locals" are included with their packages and the sub cannot purchase them separately, Direct probably will just have an increase and add a buck or two. The subscriber probably would not bulk. After all the Direct is more expensive and their subs are willing to pay it .


They just did in October 2019, not even two years ago. I do not know how long the extended for.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> They just did in October 2019, not even two years ago. I do not know how long the extended for.


If it is 2 years ago, probably it wont be that much longer.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

Abe12 said:


> Have been reading this link and the dish statement. I noticed in Mpls only the CW channel would lose. Question? Does Sinclair want the RSN's (Minnesota Twins & Minnesota Timberwolves) back on Dish in this agreement or is this pretty much a different negotion that doesn't really affect the sports RSN's?
> 
> Also, do you see any chance that this all comes together with a total agreement of everything back on the air? (In your opinion of course)


Consider yourself lucky Sinclair only owns your CW station lol they own my ABC & Fox affiliates.

Sinclair is using the power of all their owned & operated stations across the country to get Dish to accept their demands. I wouldn't be surprised if Sinclair is pushing all their RSNs on Dish like they did with Marquee on D* back in 2019.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

JosephB said:


> You won't be able to opt out of the RSNs if they come back though


AT120 doesn't include RSNs and I bet it won't if RSNs return.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

krel said:


> though i am not a dish sub i can get the locals via ota or locast so i would say that Sinclair can suck it there loss..


Locast doesn't offer AutoHop (automatic commercial skipping) and that's a big deal for many.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mwdxer said:


> What Sinclair doesn't tell you is once the Direct contract is up to renew, they will be forced to pay the same fees, if not more. Direct will have to make the decision to either pay up and raise the price to their subscribers or go through the same dispute.


The real sticking point here is that Sinclair wants to make carrying local channels conditional on including their RSNs in all packages. This a pretty terrible abuse of power on Sinclair's part.

The typical DIRECTV subscriber is perhaps not as vehemently opposed to this bundling condition as DISH customers are but nobody should support this kind of monopolistic extortion.


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## Mister Coke (Jan 23, 2015)

Dish Network not dropping Sinclair channels as contract talks continue


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

In other words, Sinclair couldnt handle the loss of all those subs, and DISH didnt flinch.
So, my MIL got an antenna for all those extra channels, and if it works out, will end up saving $12 a month Sinclair wont get a piece of. Smooth greedy move Sinclair.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> The real sticking point here is that Sinclair wants to make carrying local channels conditional on including their RSNs in all packages.


With some reports that Sinclair wants to be paid for every subscriber whether or not they receive the RSNs, which means Welcome Pack, AT120 and other "RSN free" package subscribers would be counted when DISH writes the carriage payments.

YES wanted that level of carriage back in the day. Paid for by every DISH subscriber. They did not get what they wanted.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mister Coke said:


> Dish Network not dropping Sinclair channels as contract talks continue


Sadly temporary. But hey, an extension is an extension.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> With some reports that Sinclair wants to be paid for every subscriber whether or not they receive the RSNs, which means Welcome Pack, AT120 and other "RSN free" package subscribers would be counted when DISH writes the carriage payments.


Interestingly, I noticed today that my sister lost Tennis Channel (also owned by Sinclair and part of this same negotiation) from her Welcome Pack subscription, even though the channel has not been pulled from Dish yet. (It still appears in green in my guide on channel 400.) Yeah, I know, "nothing of value was lost." 



James Long said:


> YES wanted that level of carriage back in the day. Paid for by every DISH subscriber. They did not get what they wanted.


It makes me wonder how YES ever got onto Sling in the first place. Did Dish agree to those terms for Sling subscribers, but not for Dish subscribers? (Again, I know, "we will never know the answers, since the terms are never disclosed.")


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

harsh said:


> Locast doesn't offer AutoHop (automatic commercial skipping) and that's a big deal for many.


More to the point, Locast doesn't offer *delayed viewing*, period. It is kind of hard to skip commercials when you are watching live TV. 
(Yes, I know there are other options for recording Locast that were mentioned earlier. None of those are bundled with Locast as a single service / bill, though.)


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## krel (Mar 20, 2013)

harsh said:


> Locast doesn't offer AutoHop (automatic commercial skipping) and that's a big deal for many.


what about via antenna same deal?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

krel said:


> what about via antenna same deal?


Antenna on a hopper allows recording and commercial skipping.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

When I moved to Texas, one of the things I made sure of is that the master bedroom and the room which I will eventually use as a multimedia room all has a antenna port just for this type of situation.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

crodrules said:


> More to the point, Locast doesn't offer *delayed viewing*, period. It is kind of hard to skip commercials when you are watching live TV.
> (Yes, I know there are other options for recording Locast that were mentioned earlier. None of those are bundled with Locast as a single service / bill, though.)


I have Locast and Stremium (DVR) and it works well. No automatic skipping of ads, but you can DVR your shows and jump ahead in 30 sec intervals for getting through ads. It works for me. At least I get TV stations I cannot get OTA here from Portland. We have some translators, but not all. Stremium was $50 for the year. Not bad, for like $4 and some change a month. Stremium also gives you a bunch of other streaming channels. I think with Locast, Sling (Free), and the extras, I have over 100 channels using the combo.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

In addition to the removal (from the guide) of the info/mesg channels related to the Sinclair dispute, DISHPromise.com no longer lists the channels as disputed.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> I have Locast and Stremium (DVR) and it works well. No automatic skipping of ads, but you can DVR your shows and jump ahead in 30 sec intervals for getting through ads. It works for me. At least I get TV stations I cannot get OTA here from Portland. We have some translators, but not all. Stremium was $50 for the year. Not bad, for like $4 and some change a month. Stremium also gives you a bunch of other streaming channels. I think with Locast, Sling (Free), and the extras, I have over 100 channels using the combo.


Locast is great when it works properly. Unfortunately, last night the channel I wanted to watch had the audio and video out of sync so badly, it made it unwatchable. Video was delayed far enough that the completely wrong news story was still playing, and the wrong commercial was still playing, after the audio had moved on to the next story / next commercial. No DVR option can help with that, when the actual broadcast (stream) is messed up.

Fortunately, this specific channel is one that just happened to recently launch a local translator in my area. My stationary rooftop antenna does not pick it up since it is a low-power station, and my antenna is aimed in a different direction. My next step will be to start experimenting with an indoor antenna, to see if I can actually get that translator reliably. Now I know that I need a backup, just in case Locast screws up again.


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## juan ellitinez (Jan 31, 2003)

crodrules said:


> Interestingly, I noticed today that my sister lost Tennis Channel (also owned by Sinclair and part of this same negotiation) from her Welcome Pack subscription, even though the channel has not been pulled from Dish yet. (It still appears in green in my guide on channel 400.) Yeah, I know, "nothing of value was lost."
> 
> It makes me wonder how YES ever got onto Sling in the first place. Did Dish agree to those terms for Sling subscribers, but not for Dish subscribers? (Again, I know, "we will never know the answers, since the terms are never disclosed.")


YES was owned by Fox at one point


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

It'll be interesting to see if the RSNs are back on Dish once this plays out.


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## Richl (May 6, 2006)

Let them leave! Goodbye Sinclair!!!! Screw your mega price increase!


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Richl said:


> Let them leave! Goodbye Sinclair!!!! Screw your mega price increase!


All references to the dispute were pulled from the websites of the Sinclair stations that I checked, and Dish's video about the dispute has apparently been pulled from YouTube. Signs are looking good about a possible deal being reached. Sorry to disappoint you.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

crodrules said:


> Locast is great when it works properly. Unfortunately, last night the channel I wanted to watch had the audio and video out of sync so badly, it made it unwatchable. Video was delayed far enough that the completely wrong news story was still playing, and the wrong commercial was still playing, after the audio had moved on to the next story / next commercial. No DVR option can help with that, when the actual broadcast (stream) is messed up.
> 
> Fortunately, this specific channel is one that just happened to recently launch a local translator in my area. My stationary rooftop antenna does not pick it up since it is a low-power station, and my antenna is aimed in a different direction. My next step will be to start experimenting with an indoor antenna, to see if I can actually get that translator reliably. Now I know that I need a backup, just in case Locast screws up again.


Update: So far, the cheap mudflap indoor amplified antenna has been a failure. I still cannot get a scan to even find WOHZ. (Our local low-powered translator of WOIO and WUAB.) However, I may have found at least part of the problem with the rooftop antenna's reception. I am apparently getting interference from WTVS PBS Detroit, which also broadcasts on UHF channel 20. Tonight, atmospheric conditions were just good enough for my Hopper 3's OTA scan to find WTVS with a weak, but usable, signal. So, it looks like in order to successfully pick up WOHZ, I will have no choices but to either have someone re-aim my rooftop antenna, or try to find a better model of indoor antenna to use.

Fortunately, this week the streaming from Locast has greatly improved. While the video is still delayed by around a couple of minutes from the live broadcast (judging by the clock on-screen during the newscast) at least the audio is now also delayed to match, making the station watchable again. It would still be nice to have a backup, though, just in case the streaming ever screws up again.


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## DJ Lon (Nov 3, 2005)

crodrules said:


> Update: So far, the cheap mudflap indoor amplified antenna has been a failure. I still cannot get a scan to even find WOHZ. (Our local low-powered translator of WOIO and WUAB.) However, I may have found at least part of the problem with the rooftop antenna's reception. I am apparently getting interference from WTVS PBS Detroit, which also broadcasts on UHF channel 20. Tonight, atmospheric conditions were just good enough for my Hopper 3's OTA scan to find WTVS with a weak, but usable, signal. So, it looks like in order to successfully pick up WOHZ, I will have no choices but to either have someone re-aim my rooftop antenna, or try to find a better model of indoor antenna to use.
> 
> Fortunately, this week the streaming from Locast has greatly improved. While the video is still delayed by around a couple of minutes from the live broadcast (judging by the clock on-screen during the newscast) at least the audio is now also delayed to match, making the station watchable again. It would still be nice to have a backup, though, just in case the streaming ever screws up again.


Mudflaps are totally useless amplified or not. TV bands are still the same as 50 years ago...VHF and UHF. May I suggest... https://amzn.to/2WuHx5s ...as a[n inexpensive] start? We use this model at our community clubhouse for the TV there and it gets an amazing total of 95 OTA channels. Sometime we have to move it around (adjust its position) to avoid loss of signal on certain channels but it's a great little workhorse.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

DJ Lon said:


> Mudflaps are totally useless amplified or not. TV bands are still the same as 50 years ago...VHF and UHF. May I suggest... https://amzn.to/2WuHx5s ...as a[n inexpensive] start? We use this model at our community clubhouse for the TV there and it gets an amazing total of 95 OTA channels. Sometime we have to move it around (adjust its position) to avoid loss of signal on certain channels but it's a great little workhorse.


Thanks! After I posted, I decided that my next step would be to dig out my old DTV Pal digital-to-analog converter box and fool around with it. Obviously, I don't need the conversion to analog part for my purposes. However, it does have some features that I may find useful. For one thing, it automatically scans for new channels every time it is in standby, and adds them to the list without removing any previously scanned channels. Also, if I remember correctly, I can manually select an individual frequency without needing to do a full scan. So, I could set it for channel 20, adjust the antenna, and see if it will actually find anything.

Getting the channel scanned in at all seems to be the hard part with the tuners and antennas I have tried so far. Once the channel is successfully found, adjusting the antenna for the best signal should be the easy part. I will try this test with a wire-loop antenna I also happen to have packed away, rather than use the mudflap. I hope this works. I used to receive this station consistently before the repack. The move to channel 20 seems to have made it harder for me to receive it.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

One thing to keep in mind about scanning for channels - a channel that advertises as "TV4" is NOT necessarily on channel 4 - all digital TV channels are potentially virtual. Use something like rabbitears.com or other antenna aiming sites to help you.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

scooper said:


> One thing to keep in mind about scanning for channels - a channel that advertises as "TV4" is NOT necessarily on channel 4 - all digital TV channels are potentially virtual. Use something like rabbitears.com or other antenna aiming sites to help you.


Yes, exactly. In the example I gave above, the channel I am trying to receive on RF 20 (WOHZ) is virtual channels 19 and 43. (It is a translator of both WOIO and WUAB, which also share the frequency of RF 10 on their main channel.) The other RF 20, WTVS from Detroit (that is potentially interfering with my signal) is on virtual channel 56. The only reason I thought to check the actual frequency of that station was because I was watching the progress of the Hopper's scan. It found a station that it normally doesn't find (which turned out to be WTVS) right after it found another local translator in my area that I know is on RF 18. So, I looked it up online, and sure enough, it is RF 20.

The old ViP receivers would actually tell you which frequency is being scanned while the scan is in progress. Unfortunately, newer receivers and other tuners these days usually only have a progress bar or percentage indicator, rather than show the exact frequency. So, without looking it up, you are left to guess about the frequency of each channel that is found, based on how far along the progress bar is. Otherwise, you have to actually count each tiny jump of the progress bar to keep track of what frequency it is on, rather than only paying attention when channels are actually found and added to the count, as I usually tend to do while watching the scan.


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## Mister Coke (Jan 23, 2015)

Report: Dish and Sinclair Agree to Carriage Extension Through Mid-September


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## bjdotson (Feb 20, 2007)

The shows that wife and I watch premiere From September 20th - October 10th. Date seems to be planned to put maximum pressure on the talks. I am not hopeful.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

crodrules said:


> Thanks! After I posted, I decided that my next step would be to dig out my old DTV Pal digital-to-analog converter box and fool around with it. Obviously, I don't need the conversion to analog part for my purposes. However, it does have some features that I may find useful. For one thing, it automatically scans for new channels every time it is in standby, and adds them to the list without removing any previously scanned channels. Also, if I remember correctly, I can manually select an individual frequency without needing to do a full scan. So, I could set it for channel 20, adjust the antenna, and see if it will actually find anything.
> 
> Getting the channel scanned in at all seems to be the hard part with the tuners and antennas I have tried so far. Once the channel is successfully found, adjusting the antenna for the best signal should be the easy part. I will try this test with a wire-loop antenna I also happen to have packed away, rather than use the mudflap. I hope this works. I used to receive this station consistently before the repack. The move to channel 20 seems to have made it harder for me to receive it.


Update: this experiment has been a failure. I blame my antenna this time. The antenna I had was a really old model, with the prong connectors to hook it up to a really old analog TV. So, I had to connect the prongs to an adapter to convert it to a push-on cable connector. I then added a barrel connector so I could screw on a length of coaxial cable, to be able to get the antenna as high as possible. Where the built-in cable attached to the antenna, the plastic was cracked, and the bare wire was showing. This is not such a big deal, as that could easily be fixed with some electrical tape. However, it does indicate that the wire suffered a sharp bend at that point, and could be subject to breaking easily.

I was partially right about the DTV Pal. It does indeed allow you to select which frequency you want to scan. However, you still have to manually start the scan. When it scans, the scan only lasts for the same amount of time that it would scan each frequency if it were doing a full scan. This only allows a ridiculously short number of seconds to reposition the antenna before the scan stops, and then you have to start over. I was unable to find a signal on RF 20 this way. So far, the automatic standby scan has also come up empty.

My next step is to buy a better antenna, and then try again.


DJ Lon said:


> Mudflaps are totally useless amplified or not. TV bands are still the same as 50 years ago...VHF and UHF. May I suggest... https://amzn.to/2WuHx5s ...as a[n inexpensive] start? We use this model at our community clubhouse for the TV there and it gets an amazing total of 95 OTA channels. Sometime we have to move it around (adjust its position) to avoid loss of signal on certain channels but it's a great little workhorse.


Thanks for the link, DJ Lon! This will be my next purchase.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Yes, exactly. In the example I gave above, the channel I am trying to receive on RF 20 (WOHZ) is virtual channels 19 and 43. (It is a translator of both WOIO and WUAB, which also share the frequency of RF 10 on their main channel.) The other RF 20, WTVS from Detroit (that is potentially interfering with my signal) is on virtual channel 56. The only reason I thought to check the actual frequency of that station was because I was watching the progress of the Hopper's scan. It found a station that it normally doesn't find (which turned out to be WTVS) right after it found another local translator in my area that I know is on RF 18. So, I looked it up online, and sure enough, it is RF 20.
> 
> The old ViP receivers would actually tell you which frequency is being scanned while the scan is in progress. Unfortunately, newer receivers and other tuners these days usually only have a progress bar or percentage indicator, rather than show the exact frequency. So, without looking it up, you are left to guess about the frequency of each channel that is found, based on how far along the progress bar is. Otherwise, you have to actually count each tiny jump of the progress bar to keep track of what frequency it is on, rather than only paying attention when channels are actually found and added to the count, as I usually tend to do while watching the scan.


WOHZ is a low power repeater while WTVS is a full power signal that may skip in regularly especially since there is not much ground clutter over Lake Erie. You may need a highly directional antenna aimed at Mansfield. You may even need to go to extremes to block the Detroit signal. I've seen an aluminum garbage can used as a shield (Open end pointed at the desired station).

Ironically people in Lake and Ashtabula counties have the same problem with the main RF 10 signal of WOIO/WUAB with CFPL in London Ontario Canada.

The ownwers of WOIO/WUAB sold off thier RF 28 signal that was WUAB's ATSC assigned frequency and chose to keep RF 10 despite the interference from CFPL. In the analog days I used to watch CFPL every summer as a kid. It came in nearly as strong as a local station.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

crodrules said:


> Locast is great when it works properly...


Well, now even Locast will not work at all. So, this may make me even more desperate to fix this problem. I would hate to have to reopen my Dish account and start paying the $15 per month for Locals again.



Michael P said:


> The ownwers of WOIO/WUAB sold off thier RF 28 signal that was WUAB's ATSC assigned frequency and chose to keep RF 10 despite the interference from CFPL. In the analog days I used to watch CFPL every summer as a kid. It came in nearly as strong as a local station.


I still have WUAB scanned into my DTV Pal from back when it was on RF 28. (Obviously, I no longer receive anything, but I still have the channel in my guide. I like looking at the list of every OTA channel I have ever received, local or distant.) Back then, the signal here was not really very reliable. (None of the Cleveland stations are reliable here.) However, at least WUAB would come in occasionally. I never could get a whiff of WOIO's RF 10 signal.

I do give Gray Media Group credit for at least launching a local translator in my area (purchasing the existing WOHZ). None of the other Cleveland stations have bothered to do anything similar here. Now, it is just a matter of actually *receiving* that translator's signal.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

crodrules said:


> It is allowed under very limited circumstances, and Dish is doing exactly that in the Zanesville market, for example. If the market lacks an in-market affiliate, then Dish imports an affiliate from a nearby market. Currently, the ABC affiliate usually provided in Zanesville (Sinclair-owned WSYX from Columbus) is being replaced by a non-Sinclair ABC affiliate from Cleveland (WEWS) in the Zanesville package. Zanesville's only in-market network affiliate is NBC WHIZ. All other networks are imported for the Zanesville local package.
> 
> Dish is also in a long-standing dispute with WHIZ, which has removed NBC from the Zanesville package for years. Since Dish does not carry the only in-market station, it makes me wonder how Dish is still allowed to offer locals in the Zanesville market at all. I suppose as long as Dish continues to negotiate for WHIZ, while still carrying any other "must carry" stations (maybe one PBS station at most) that still shows a "good faith" effort on Dish's part to serve that market. As it is, at the moment only one network affiliate that traditionally serves Zanesville is still being provided as part of that package (the imported CBS WBNS from Columbus). The Sinclair-owned Fox from Columbus has also been replaced by non-Sinclair WJW from Cleveland.


It is official: Dish has apparently decided to flip the entire Zanesville market package (except the still-not-carried in-market NBC WHIZ) over to the Cleveland DMA. With today's uplink, Dish changed the only remaining Columbus station (CBS WBNS) to the Cleveland CBS affiliate, WOIO:


James Long said:


> *44 changes seen 9/8/21 at 3:11pm ET (v14)*
> ...
> *Channels Renamed*
> 5271 WBNS COLUMBUS, OH (CBS) renamed WOIO SHAKER HEIGHTS, OH (CBS) SV* (10 HD Local) (61.5° 32s4 (Ohio) HD Zanesville, OH market Hidden)
> 6511 WBNS COLUMBUS, OH (CBS) renamed WOIO SHAKER HEIGHTS, OH (CBS) SV* (10 Local) (119° 4sB14 (Nashville) SD Zanesville, OH market Hidden)


I am not aware of any dispute between Dish and Tegna (owner of WBNS) that would require Dish to make this change. So, it seems that Dish is still preparing for the long-term possibility of having to go without the Sinclair-owned stations, which means that those traditionally-available adjacent-market channels may never return to the Zanesville package, or at least not for a very long time. This does not look good for the state of Dish's ongoing negotiations with Sinclair. Dish probably felt it was easier to simply provide all-Cleveland channels as fill-in distants, rather than have subscribers in Zanesville calling Dish to ask why some of their channels are from Cleveland, while others are from Columbus.

Alternatively, this could be a power grab by Gray Media Group (owner of WOIO) trying to expand that station's coverage even further. Ironically, WOIO's low-power repeater station here in Mansfield (WOHZ) was supposed to help expand their OTA coverage to better serve my area, but I have yet to actually receive that station OTA at all since that change was made.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The "significantly viewed" stations for Muskingum County are:
WHIZ-TV, 18, Zanesville, OH 
WCMH-TV, 4, Columbus, OH (formerly WLWC) 
WSYX, 6, Columbus, OH (formerly WTVN) 
WBNS-TV, 10, Columbus, OH 
+WTTE, 28, Columbus, OH

The above stations could be carried as "significantly viewed". Other stations could be carried as distants. DISH gets the choice of what channels to carry (either option is legal). Carrying a station in the list above would normally require paying the station. Carrying a station not on the list would require paying the distants fund which pays the copyright holders.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> The "significantly viewed" stations for Muskingum County are:
> WHIZ-TV, 18, Zanesville, OH
> WCMH-TV, 4, Columbus, OH (formerly WLWC)
> WSYX, 6, Columbus, OH (formerly WTVN)
> ...


Yes, and technically that list means that Dish could be providing the NBC affiliate from Columbus (WCMH) to Zanesville viewers, on the condition that the in-market NBC WHIZ also is carried. (The rules do not allow carriage of a qualifying out-of-market affiliate without carriage of the in-market affiliate, regardless of the out-of-market station's Significantly Viewed status.) However, Dish never did exercise that option, even when they were still carrying WHIZ. Without WHIZ, NBC in the Zanesville package is a non-starter.

Regardless, the Significantly Viewed list does serve to indicate which affiliates are the most popular in that county (in this case, the only county in the Zanesville market). So, refusing to carry those stations may alienate Dish subscribers in the Zanesville market who would prefer to receive the same stations that every other provider carries.

On the other hand, Dish runs the risk that prolonged carriage of the Cleveland stations there could possibly end up having the opposite effect. Those distant affiliates may prove to be so popular that Zanesville locals package subscribers will end up complaining to Dish if/when the Columbus stations ever return.

In any event, none of the Sinclair stations have actually been dropped yet. If a dispute with Tegna is pending, it is still on the very distant horizon, as Dish has made no other preparations for that dispute. In either case, Dish was not *forced* to drop these channels from the Zanesville package, at least not yet. So, this seems like jumping the gun, or an unforced error on Dish's part.

It is possible that Dish's contract to carry the stations on a Significantly Viewed basis had a different expiration date than the main contract for in-market carriage of those stations. However, it still seems strange that they would not agree to a temporary extension in that situation, just as they did for the in-market carriage.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It is an odd arrangement, carrying WOIO on channel 10 instead of their Cleveland channel number (19). I believe that DISH has made an error on the OTA mapping so people MAY get the WBNS guide data on the OTA WOIO feed (in the Cleveland area where OTA is feasible). There is probably a reason for the affiliate change ... does WOIO have better sports coverage than WBNS (Browns games)?

Significantly viewed as an indication of popularity would not be accurate. Significantly viewed is defined by OTA reception in the defined area (Muskingum County in this case). This would not include cable or satellite delivered signals so it would be based on how many people could receive a channel OTA. Enough people would need to receive the signal OTA before it could be considered significantly viewed. The list is biased toward the stations originally placed on the list decades ago for cable TV - for a new station to be added it would need to have a signal that reached the defined area AND become popular to receive OTA (not via cable/satellite).

Cable systems could carry stations from both Columbus and Cleveland in Zanesville ... regardless of if they are on the significantly viewed list. WHIZ would be protected on cable as an in-market station. Significantly viewed was created as a way for local stations with significant OTA viewership to force carriage on cable systems. The current additional use of the list to allow optional carriage by satellite companies was not the intent of the list.

I don't see WOIO replacing WBNS as being related to the Sinclair issue - which is still pending ("mid September" extension) and all the channels remain in place and hidden ready to be activated if the contract expires with Sinclair. Don't consider Sinclair to be over until it is announced as over. From an uplink standpoint, the separate OTA EPGs DISH put up for the Sinclair channels remain in service and OTA EPG is expected to shift back to the via satellite channels once the "dispute" is fully settled.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> It is official: Dish has apparently decided to flip the entire Zanesville market package (except the still-not-carried in-market NBC WHIZ) over to the Cleveland DMA. With today's uplink, Dish changed the only remaining Columbus station (CBS WBNS) to the Cleveland CBS affiliate, WOIO:
> 
> I am not aware of any dispute between Dish and Tegna (owner of WBNS) that would require Dish to make this change. So, it seems that Dish is still preparing for the long-term possibility of having to go without the Sinclair-owned stations, which means that those traditionally-available adjacent-market channels may never return to the Zanesville package, or at least not for a very long time. This does not look good for the state of Dish's ongoing negotiations with Sinclair. Dish probably felt it was easier to simply provide all-Cleveland channels as fill-in distants, rather than have subscribers in Zanesville calling Dish to ask why some of their channels are from Cleveland, while others are from Columbus.
> 
> Alternatively, this could be a power grab by Gray Media Group (owner of WOIO) trying to expand that station's coverage even further. Ironically, WOIO's low-power repeater station here in Mansfield (WOHZ) was supposed to help expand their OTA coverage to better serve my area, but I have yet to actually receive that station OTA at all since that change was made.


I did not think Dish could do that. Zanesville is so far from Cleveland, it doesn't make sense. WOIO should be happy, they were giving weather reports for Carrington, OH which is solidly in the Columbus DMA. There lousy RF 10 main signal can't even reach parts of Lake and Ashtabula Counties (thanks to interference from CFPL).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

crodrules said:


> My next step is to buy a better antenna, and then try again.


You may see more benefit from running a whole new cabling system to the existing antenna. It sounds like you have a nasty amalgamation of adapters and extensions.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

harsh said:


> You may see more benefit from running a whole new cabling system to the existing antenna. It sounds like you have a nasty amalgamation of adapters and extensions.


I already threw away the antenna I described in that post. Where the plastic was cracked, the wire inside finally completely broke. It was just a last-ditch effort to see if I could still get any use out of that antenna before I threw it away, just to satisfy my own curiosity. I will use a new cable with the new antenna.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> It is an odd arrangement, carrying WOIO on channel 10 instead of their Cleveland channel number (19).


Dish did the same thing with the other two channels on August 11, putting WEWS (Cleveland-market 5) on channel 6 (formerly WSYX) and WJW (Cleveland-market 8) on channel 28:


James Long said:


> *506 changes seen 8/11/21 at 4:12pm ET (v23)*
> ...
> *Channels Renamed*
> ...
> ...


Ironically, putting WOIO on channel 10 is the one move that makes the *most *sense, since channel 10 is WOIO's actual RF frequency. Similarly, in the Cleveland local package, Dish puts WMFD on channel 12 (same as their RF 12) while their virtual channel is still channel 68.

I assume with all of these Zanesville moves that they are only intended to be temporary. So, Dish is putting the equivalent network affiliates on the same channel numbers where viewers are used to finding those networks. This is nothing new, as that is exactly what Dish does every time they replace an affiliate in the Zanesville market due to a dispute. In theory, any existing timers for network programming on those channel numbers should also continue to work, regardless of which affiliate is actually carried on that channel number.



James Long said:


> There is probably a reason for the affiliate change ... does WOIO have better sports coverage than WBNS (Browns games)?


I thought of another possible reason: syndicated programming. With the package the way it had been since mid-August, there may have been too much duplication with having WBNS in the mix with WJW and especially WEWS. Meanwhile, other syndicated shows that air on the WSYX ABC and Fox channels may have been left out after the switch to the Cleveland affiliates. So, the switch to WOIO may have been an attempt to replace some of that missing syndicated programming, while having less duplication.

That creates a whole new set of problems with any syndicated shows that air on WBNS and WKYC (also owned by Tegna, so some similarities in the syndicated programming carried are likely). With the old mix, Zanesville viewers still had access to those shows on WBNS, but now *those* shows would be missing with the new lineup.

I have not actually checked the guides for any of these channels to see what syndicated shows air on which channel in each market. I am just guessing based on memory from when I had both markets (Cleveland and Columbus) on cable, and would flip through the channels in the afternoon.



James Long said:


> Enough people would need to receive the signal OTA before it could be considered significantly viewed. The list is biased toward the stations originally placed on the list decades ago for cable TV - for a new station to be added it would need to have a signal that reached the defined area AND become popular to receive OTA (not via cable/satellite).


More importantly, to be added to the list, the station would need to spend the money to conduct the required survey of OTA viewers to prove that the station is significantly viewed, and then submit those results to the FCC. There is little incentive for stations to do that, since there is no way that they can force their way into the satellite local packages even after going to all of that effort to get added to the list. This is likely why WMFD has never been added to the Significantly Viewed list, despite being a full-power station located near a DMA boundary, with the geographic majority of its service contour (although likely not the majority of the population that it serves) being located in other nearby markets, particularly the Columbus market.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

With cable there are multiple ways to get carried. They are not limited to strict market boundaries like satellite was. Significantly viewed was invented to solve disputes where a station was not carried on a cable system in a community where they claimed coverage. If the station was carried there was no reason for the station to claim significantly viewed. Most cable systems will carry any local station they can receive at their point of presence rendering significantly viewed moot in many cases. (Stations do not need to force systems to do what they are already doing.) Satellite had the opposite problem. A strong transmitter on the wrong side of a DMA line was prohibited from being carried in the neighboring market until SV was put in place for satellite. Just one of the inequities in carriage laws. SV for satellite made the situation better, but there are still inequities.

The point was that being on the SV list does not make the station more or less popular than stations not on the list. The list is not of "the most popular stations in Muskingum counties". It is a list of stations that either had significant OTA viewership when the list was created or proved they had significant OTA viewership at a later date. No more, no less, no popularity compared to other stations involved at all.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

And just to confuse the "Significantly viewed" and "Local-into-Local" situation a little more, there's the option in Mississippi, New Hampshire, and Vermont that allows the sat companies to carry in-state stations that are outside of the viewer's out of state assigned DMA. Dish subscribers in Bennington County, VT, for instance, receive both the assigned Albany, NY DMA plus the Burlington, VT DMA locals, while subscribers in Windham County, VT receive the assigned Boston, MA DMA plus the Burlington DMA.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

NYDutch said:


> And just to confuse "Significantly viewed" and "Local-into-Local" situation a little more, there's the option in Mississippi, New Hampshire, and Vermont that allows the sat companies to carry in-state stations that are outside of the viewer's out of state assigned DMA.


Yes, and Oregon was the fourth state with a "special exception" included in that same section of the law, which would allow four counties in Oregon (designated for out-of-state markets) to receive at least some stations from Portland. The Oregon situation was trickier, as the determination for which Portland stations should be added to the locals package was based on cable viewership of those stations in each county, if I recall correctly. So, I am not sure if that "special exception" has ever actually been used, especially on Dish. It is still available as an option though, as far as I know.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> The point was that being on the SV list does not make the station more or less popular than stations not on the list. The list is not of "the most popular stations in Muskingum counties". It is a list of stations that either had significant OTA viewership when the list was created or proved they had significant OTA viewership at a later date. No more, no less, no popularity compared to other stations involved at all.


Still, it is odd that this is the first time that Dish has ever offered a Zanesville "local" package without including *any* of the channels that are on the list for Muskingum County. It is also odd that Dish chose to replace all three networks with affiliates from the same distant DMA (Cleveland). I remember one previous dispute with Sinclair where their Columbus affiliates were temporarily replaced in Zanesville with one station from Cleveland and one station from Youngstown, for example. So, combined with the continued refusal to carry the in-market WHIZ, this move comes across as being a blatant attempt to flip Muskingum County to the Cleveland DMA, if those channels prove to be popular enough (Nielsen ratings). Then again, the lack of carriage of WHIZ by itself could have been seen as an attempt to flip Muskingum County to the Columbus DMA, yet that never happened in all of these years.

Either way, if Nielsen ever does re-designate Muskingum County for a different DMA, then Dish would regain the ability to offer NBC there by offering that DMA's affiliate, regardless of whether or not WHIZ is carried at that point. Considering that such a DMA flip would also qualify Muskingum County for all of the other local channels carried in that new DMA (which would be a lot more channels than they currently receive in the Zanesville local package) it seems like eliminating the DMA boundary would be a win-win for Zanesville local subscribers and for Dish.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Not a surprise at all if you think about it - For Primetime to work, you have to have the Big 4 (ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX) for a market to all be on ONE transponder.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

scooper said:


> Not a surprise at all if you think about it - For Primetime to work, you have to have the Big 4 (ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX) for a market to all be on ONE transponder.


Not a problem at all for Zanesville. All of the feeds for that market are on separate transponders than the ones used for the originating market:
Local Channels on DISH Network (Unofficial Listing)
_*Zanesville, OH*
6-00 WEWS CLEVELAND, OH (ABC) - 6510 SD 119ｰ 4sB14 *A* (abc) 5270 *HD* 61.5ｰ 32s4 *A* (abc)
10-00 WOIO SHAKER HEIGHTS, OH (CBS) SV* - 6511 SD 119ｰ 4sB14 *A* (cbs) 5271 *HD* 61.5ｰ 32s4 *A* (cbs)
18-00 LOCAL - 
5272 *HD* 61.5ｰ 32s4 *A* (nbc)
28-00 WJW CLEVELAND, OH (FOX) - 6513 SD 119ｰ 4sB14 *A* (fox) 5273 *HD* 61.5ｰ 32s4 *A* (fox)
62-00 WOUB ATHENS, OH (PBS) - 6514 SD 119ｰ 4sB14 *A* () 5274 *HD* 61.5ｰ 27s30 *A* ()_

Specifically, all of the HD feeds provided for Zanesville have always been on the 61.5 satellite. The Columbus, Ohio local package has never even been anywhere on Eastern Arc. So, Dish could pick any distant channels they want to simulcast on the Zanesville local transponder, and PTAT would continue to work (for ABC, CBS, and Fox) as it always has.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> Still, it is odd that this is the first time that Dish has ever offered a Zanesville "local" package without including *any* of the channels that are on the list for Muskingum County. It is also odd that Dish chose to replace all three networks with affiliates from the same distant DMA (Cleveland).


Which means DISH is paying statutory rate distant fees instead of whatever the SV stations are asking.

Zanesville has their own uplinks of their channels on their own spot beams.

*Zanesville, OH*
6-00 WEWS CLEVELAND, OH (ABC) SV* - 6510 SD 119° 4sB14 *A* 5270 *HD* 61.5° 32s4 *A*
10-00 WOIO SHAKER HEIGHTS, OH (CBS) SV* - 6511 SD 119° 4sB14 *A* 5271 *HD* 61.5° 32s4 *A*
18-00 LOCAL - 5272 *HD* 61.5° 32s4 *A*
28-00 WJW CLEVELAND, OH (FOX) SV* - 6513 SD 119° 4sB14 *A* 5273 *HD* 61.5° 32s4 *A*
62-00 WOUB ATHENS, OH (PBS) - 6514 SD 119° 4sB14 *A* 5274 *HD* 61.5° 27s30 *A*

(I'll fix the SV* errors on the website. I just finished rebuilding the local list and need to check the home markets in my database.)


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

crodrules said:


> All of the feeds for that market are on separate transponders than the ones used for the originating market:


Nonetheless, ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX all share 61.5-32s4 by my reckoning of the information you posted so the requirements of PTAT are met.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

harsh said:


> Nonetheless, ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX all share 61.5-32s4 by my reckoning of the information you posted so the requirements of PTAT are met.


Yes, that is what I meant. This is a different transponder than the one used for Cleveland (61.5 - *2*2s4). So, any feeds that Dish chose for Zanesville would be simulcast on 61.5 - *3*2s4, and would meet the PTAT requirements regardless of which market(s) they originate from.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

crodrules said:


> This is a different transponder than the one used for Cleveland (61.5 - *2*2s4). So, any feeds that Dish chose for Zanesville would be simulcast on 61.5 - *3*2s4, and would meet the PTAT requirements regardless of which market(s) they originate from.


I would imagine that the same could be said of any market in the same time zone.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Has Dish & Sinclair renewed their contracts? I have not heard a word for several days. Maybe I missed an announcement, but with no crawler, etc on the Sinclair stations, I feel they must have come to some agreement.
I saw an article on how much money the Network stations lose in these disputes. Apparently they feel that they can handle the loss.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

James Long said:


> Which means DISH is paying statutory rate distant fees instead of whatever the SV stations are asking.
> 
> Zanesville has their own uplinks of their channels on their own spot beams.
> 
> ...


What is "18-00 LOCAL"?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Michael P said:


> What is "18-00 LOCAL"?


A channel that is in dispute. In Zanesville subscribers would get the "sorry your channel isn't carried" channel (although at the moment that channel is marked "limited availability" which usually means not available to regular subscribers - only available to techs and specific receivers DISH has enabled for the channel).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mwdxer said:


> Has Dish & Sinclair renewed their contracts?


Not yet. IIRC, the first extension runs out soon.

It is notable that AT&T's most recent negotiations involved several extensions.

I reason that Sinclair can't get too hard-nosed without Congress taking notice. Several congressmen have expressed annoyance with these kinds of negotiations.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

harsh said:


> Not yet. IIRC, the first extension runs out soon.
> 
> It is notable that AT&T's most recent negotiations involved several extensions.
> 
> I reason that Sinclair can't get too hard-nosed without Congress taking notice. Several congressmen have expressed annoyance with these kinds of negotiations.


Thanks for the update. I am glad Congress is finally noticing this. Maybe some from Congress has also lost programming through the years.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> I am glad Congress is finally noticing this.


Congress has "noticed" this issue many times over the years. It means nothing until they actually *act* on it, and even then it does no good until the new regulations actually take effect. Okay, I'm stepping down from my soapbox now.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Michael P said:


> What is "18-00 LOCAL"?





James Long said:


> A channel that is in dispute.


Specifically, WHIZ, the NBC affiliate for Zanesville. It has been in dispute since 2018, if I recall correctly.


James Long said:


> In Zanesville subscribers would get the "sorry your channel isn't carried" channel (although at the moment that channel is marked "limited availability" which usually means not available to regular subscribers - only available to techs and specific receivers DISH has enabled for the channel).


As I pointed out earlier (probably in last month's uplink thread) Dish hid this channel's dispute message at the same time that they added dispute message channels for the (then-upcoming) Sinclair contract deadline. I am guessing that Dish didn't want their dispute message getting muddled with different messages about different disputes airing simultaneously. Either that, or Dish simply didn't want to call any further attention to the number of disputes affecting this market.

Dish quickly removed the Sinclair dispute messages after that, when they switched the ABC and Fox affiliates for Zanesville to the "replacement" channels from Cleveland. Messages about the WHIZ dispute never returned. CBS [which is not (yet?) in dispute] from Columbus was then quietly replaced in Zanesville with the CBS affiliate from Cleveland, with no further dispute messages then, either.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> As I pointed out earlier (probably in last month's uplink thread) Dish hid this channel's dispute message at the same time that they added dispute message channels for the (then-upcoming) Sinclair contract deadline.


There comes a point where a contract expiration is no longer a dispute. (Such as happened with HBO - carriage contract expired, channels go away, moving on. The same with the RSNs.)

WHIZ left DISH on  7/31/19 at 6:57pm ET . Is it really a dispute two years later? Nope. It is just an expired contract. DISH may have forgotten about "18-00" since it has been so long!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> There comes a point where a contract expiration is no longer a dispute. (Such as happened with HBO - carriage contract expired, channels go away, moving on.


Given that some of these markets may lose three of the bigs, I think this is a much different discussion from HBO.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> Given that some of these markets may lose three of the bigs, I think this is a much different discussion from HBO.


Come back if Sinclair locals are gone two years. If there are markets that will lose three major networks when Sinclair leaves that is a failure of the FCC to manage station ownership limits. (My market will lose two networks but they are carried on one Sinclair station.)

Zanesville is an easy market. It covers one county and the NBC OTA signal covers the entire market. If any of the other stations imported into the market have disputes DISH can import another channel (unlike most other markets).


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> There comes a point where a contract expiration is no longer a dispute. (Such as happened with HBO - carriage contract expired, channels go away, moving on. ...


Reporting on HBO's return to Dish would beg to disagree with you:
HBO And Dish Network Resolve Nearly 3-Year Carriage Impasse, Firming Up New Deal Including Promo Discounts - Deadline
_"HBO and Dish Network have resolved one of the most bitter distribution *disputes *in pay-TV history (and that's saying something)..."_

HBO returns to Dish's lineup after a protracted absence | Engadget
_"Dish is also offering HBO Max after resolving its *dispute* with WarnerMedia."
"Dish Network is finally offering HBO, Cinemax and HBO Max to its subscribers after kicking HBO off its network nearly three years ago. It's the first time Dish subscribers will be able to watch HBO shows like Mare of Easttown and Euphoria since the carriage *dispute* began on October 31st, 2018. ..."_

And those are just from a quick Google search. In any event, the return of HBO and Cinemax does prove that multi-year-long disputes *can* be resolved, even when Dish is involved.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Reporters can be wrong and so can you. 
The headline has a better view: "Nearly 3-Year Carriage Impasse"


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## Mister Coke (Jan 23, 2015)

https://twitter.com/RichLightShed Hearing DISH Sinclair $DISH $SBGI extend again - now until mid-October Future of RSNs (dropped two years ago) remains unknown as retrans battle continues


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Mister Coke said:


> https://twitter.com/RichLightShed Hearing DISH Sinclair $DISH $SBGI extend again - now until mid-October Future of RSNs (dropped two years ago) remains unknown as retrans battle continues


Thanks for the update. At least we have another month...


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

crodrules said:


> So, combined with the continued refusal to carry the in-market WHIZ, this move comes across as being *a blatant attempt to flip Muskingum County to the Cleveland DMA*





James Long said:


> *1 change seen 9/16/21 at 2:56am ET (v05)*
> 
> *Channels Moved*
> 5274 WOUB (62 HD Local) ATHENS, OH (PBS) moved from 27s30 (Pittsburgh PA) to 32s4 (Ohio) at 61.5° (HD Zanesville, OH market Hidden)


Hmmm... so the only remaining "local" channel in the Zanesville package (also carried on channel 20 in the Columbus, Ohio local package) just got moved to the same spotbeam as the Cleveland locals (for Cleveland-market carriage) for Zanesville subscribers. Interesting.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The old transponder looks fairly full (9 HD and 1 SD remain, plus mirrors). Plenty of room on the new transponder.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> The old transponder looks fairly full (9 HD and 1 SD remain, plus mirrors). Plenty of room on the new transponder.


That is good news. Maybe that means that Dish can start carrying more diginet subchannels as part of their Cleveland local package.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Reporting on HBO's return to Dish would beg to disagree with you:
> HBO And Dish Network Resolve Nearly 3-Year Carriage Impasse, Firming Up New Deal Including Promo Discounts - Deadline
> _"HBO and Dish Network have resolved one of the most bitter distribution *disputes *in pay-TV history (and that's saying something)..."_
> 
> ...


If only a similar thing would happen with the RSN's.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Michael P said:


> If only a similar thing would happen with the RSN's.


If RSNs return I expect it will be at a great price. There will be RSN fees in addition to the package prices people pay for AT120+ and above.

I hope DISH can make RSNs an add on (not forced on AT120+) but that is a big hope.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Come back if Sinclair locals are gone two years.


You speak as if the removal of Sinclair channels is a done deal (or at least a foregone conclusion). What's your reasoning?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> You speak as if the removal of Sinclair channels is a done deal (or at least a foregone conclusion). What's your reasoning?


Feel free to Google the word "if" to find out it's meaning.

Crodrules was discussing a long term drop of a channel (WHIZ) and I was relating that outage to the similar long term outages of HBO and the RSNs. No expectation expressed as to whether or how long Sinclair channels would be dropped. You somehow tried to twist discussion of WHIZ in Zanesville into a comment on Sinclair. It was not intended to be so. If you want to apply my comment on WHIZ, HBO or the RSNs to Sinclair to you will need to wait until the channels have been off air long enough that they are no longer a dispute - they are just uncarried channels with no contract. But of course, you would need to wait two years and it would only apply "if" (have you Googled yet?) the channels have gone down.

I hope there is a resolution that does not involve any outage. I am in no way predicting a two year outage.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

harsh said:


> You speak as if the removal of Sinclair channels is a done deal (or at least a foregone conclusion). What's your reasoning?


My reasoning is to use Zanesville as a "canary in the coalmine" as far as the Sinclair dispute is concerned. Dish certainly seems to be preparing for a long-term outage. If Dish had hope of the Sinclair stations staying on the air without an outage, then they could have left the Zanesville package alone, with a full complement of Columbus stations as fill-in distants, until at least mid-October. Instead, they chose to flip the Sinclair-owned affiliates to non-Sinclair stations in mid-August, with the remaining distant network following suit (flipping from Columbus to Cleveland) this month. So, assuming negotiations take almost the entire time until this most recent extension expires, that still means an outage of Sinclair stations in Zanesville that will have lasted around two months, although they have replacement affiliates in the meantime. That is the portion of the Sinclair outage that is already a done deal. The lack of extension for carrying the Sinclair-owned stations as "Significantly Viewed" fill-in distants does not bode well for the state of the negotiations for in-market carriage.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

I still wish when Dish has these disputes, the law would allow an import of another station with the same network while the dispute is going on. Fortunately I do have the OTA option here.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> My reasoning is to use Zanesville as a "canary in the coalmine" as far as the Sinclair dispute is concerned.


If the changes were being made due to the Sinclair issue I'd expect them to be done before the initial deadline. But it would prevent Zanesville subscribers from seeing "you are going to lose this station" messages when DISH can provide them with something else.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

crodrules said:


> My reasoning is to use Zanesville as a "canary in the coalmine" as far as the Sinclair dispute is concerned.


I'm not sure I buy that argument. The resources that prepare for the engineering changes are different from the negotiating teams. Rather than Zanesville being a canary, perhaps it is a model for how to deal with the issue of shutdowns if these or future negotiations don't go as hoped.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH really doesn't need a model. They have been dealing with stations that have refused to be carried for decades. They know what to do.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

harsh said:


> The resources that prepare for the engineering changes are different from the negotiating teams.


My point exactly. Dish wouldn't go to the trouble of investing in these additional resources (making the engineering changes) if there were still a good chance that the negotiations could succeed without any disruption. As it is, Dish is disrupting the existing service at a time when those subscribers (in Zanesville) can see that their neighbors in the next market over (Columbus) are still receiving those same stations. This would create the impression in the minds of Zanesville customers that these moves were not necessary yet. Why would Dish do that (and risk ticking off the subscribers who are affected) unless Dish felt that it was a foregone conclusion that these changes will be necessary, so it is best to go ahead and get them over with now?

I can see one reason for making the changes at the start of the new fall TV season. This gives viewers time to get used to the changes and find the new stations before new episodes start airing. (While the equivalent network affiliates remain on the same Dish channel number, syndicated programs may air on different channels in the other market.) In a way, this is less disruptive than making the changes in the middle of the season, especially around the time of the November sweeps. Still, it seems that Dish feels that such changes would be absolutely necessary around that time, so they are going ahead and preparing now.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> They have been dealing with stations that have refused to be carried for decades.


The size of the disputes (in terms of the number of stations impacted) are largely unprecedented.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> The size of the disputes (in terms of the number of stations impacted) are largely unprecedented.


DISH has dealt with a dispute of this size before and several others of large sizes and the preparation for this dispute remains in place and ready to go.

Aug 26th. 2015: Dish, Sinclair Reach Deal to End Massive Station Blackout - Variety
"Dish Network and Sinclair Broadcast Group have reached a carriage agreement that will restore 129 local TV stations to the satcaster's platform, ending the largest TV blackout in history less than 24 hours after it began."

The routine DISH follows is scalable:
Pre-Announcement - (Triggered as a deadline approaches)
Create a short video explaining DISH's side of the argument. Put it on a continuous loop on an internal "local take down" satellite channel. Create a mirror for that channel in every market - leaving it "not available" (until a later step). Move OTA EPG links from the satellite channels to stand alone channels to allow the via satellite channels to be taken down without affecting the OTA EPG. Wait.
Announcement - (Triggered when the station group announces that their channels will be dropped)
Activate the local channel mirror for their short video loop to allow customers to see DISH's side of the issue. These channels are usually adjacent to the channels with expiring contracts allowing them to be found in the guide when looking for the local channel with an expiring contract. Recent innovation: Add a pop-up message so when customers choose the local channel they get a message telling them where DISH's side of the issue is being broadcast.
Note: All of the above was done and reported in two Uplink Activity reports. The reversal of the second step (hiding the video loop channels and removing the pop-up messages) was reported in a third Uplink Activity report. As noted before, everything in the "Pre-Announcement" level remains in place and "Announcement" could be reactivated on short notice (DISH could use the original video message or provide an updated message noting the temporary extensions).

The next step (beyond the Announcement stage) is one of the below ---
Interruption - (Contract Expires - DISH no longer can legally retransmit the channels in question)
The local channels become announcement channels (see Uplink Activity » 8/25/15 at 5:01pm ET (v18) - 311 changes seen from 2015)
(Note in the example that the Zanesville channels were changed to other affiliates at the moment the Sinclair channels were taken down.)

Resolution - (When a dispute is resolved)
When it is all over (usually when a long term contract is signed) the Pre-Announcement steps are reversed. The mirrors of the local take down channels are removed, the OTA EPG is moved back to the via satellite channels. DISH waits for the next dispute.
If the stations were taken down they are restored (see Uplink Activity » 8/26/15 at 6:32pm ET (v29) - 315 changes seen from 2015)
Note: The OTA EPG change usually happens at a separate time than the channel restoration.

Unfortunately taking down local channels when contracts expire has become routine. Hopefully the interruption step will not be needed with the Sinclair channels.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

The way Congress views many of these disputes, as they do not want to get involved with private businesses. We as consumers can switch carriers and often we do.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> (Note in the example that the Zanesville channels were changed to other affiliates at the moment the Sinclair channels were taken down.)


Yes, that is the one I referred to earlier: ABC was replaced with the Cleveland affiliate, and Fox was replaced with the Youngstown affiliate. This precedent makes Dish's timing (replacing the affiliates early) and the fact that all three SV stations (including the non-Sinclair CBS WBNS) were switched to Cleveland seem especially odd. It seems that Dish is trying to encourage Zanesville local subscribers to switch to watching Cleveland-market stations instead, and to be prepared for a long outage.

Combined with the move of PBS WOUB to the Cleveland spotbeam, it makes me wonder if Dish would save any satellite space by also moving the Cleveland station mirrors for Zanesville to the Cleveland transponder. They shouldn't take up much room there, since they are simply mirrors of the exact same feeds that are already carried on that transponder, mapped to a different channel number with a different package flag. As you said, there is plenty of room there at the moment, so why not move the entire Zanesville package there, instead of maintaining a separate transponder for Zanesville?

Furthermore, since service is already being disrupted in the Zanesville market (making viewers get used to new stations) it occurs to me that this may be the best time to convert Zanesville to an all-MPEG 4 market, and shut off the SD MPEG 2 feeds on Western Arc. Get viewers used to the new channels and new equipment, and go ahead and perform the arc flip all in one fell swoop. Many subscribers may actually see this as an upgrade, rather than complain about losing the Columbus channels. Dish could also install free OTA antennas for any subscribers who do complain about the change, while they are there anyway to install the new satellite equipment. This would help with the MPEG 4 transition, and help free up some space on Western Arc for other uses.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Whoops, in my thinking I got transponder 32 mixed up with transponder 22. Both of them are on 61.5 spotbeam 4. So maybe reverse my above suggestion, and move the main feeds for Cleveland to the Zanesville transponder. Anything that helps free up space for more channels.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH does not need to free up space on the Zanesville transponder. There isn't anything they can place there other than local channels they have the rights to carry and there is practically no cost savings of turning off one transponder.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> DISH does not need to free up space on the Zanesville transponder. There isn't anything they can place there other than local channels they have the rights to carry


I was thinking along the lines of more subchannels and low-power stations (for the Cleveland market) so that Dish could deliver a service more similar to what Locast was doing before they got shut down. I like the idea of offering these additional local channels via streaming, but I would still like to see as many of them as possible on the satellite, if the space is available.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Dish is already offering a number of the Diginets as regular channels.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

scooper said:


> Dish is already offering a number of the Diginets as regular channels.


Yes, and I am very thankful for them. Several are not available OTA here. I wish Dish would add a couple other though, especially Decades. Maybe Rewind too.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

scooper said:


> Dish is already offering a number of the Diginets as regular channels.


The key is for Dish to include those diginets in their Locals Only package. (They don't.) Many of the newly-added diginets (added by Dish within the last couple of years) are not even included in Welcome Pack, although most diginets were being added to that package before then, or were available in a low-cost add-on, such as Latino Bonus Pack. I have no objection to Dish using national feeds instead of the actual local affiliates. (In fact, I *encourage *that.) However, if Dish refuses to include those channels in their Locals pack (or if their contracts don't allow Dish to do so) then the only other alternative is to carry the actual local affiliates.

One example is ION HD. Dish has a national feed of ION, but only in SD. So, if you want the HD feed, you need to subscribe to your local channels (if your market has an affiliate, and Dish carries it in HD) and receive ION that way, if you cannot receive it OTA. Prior to that change, Dish would save space by simply mapping the national feed of ION to the local channel number, although that meant that you could only receive ION in SD. It was still a way to include the national feed in the local package for markets that had affiliates. Either way, the precedent has been set, and I could see other minor networks (diginets) following suit. (Have their national feed mapped to a channel number in the locals channel range for inclusion in that package, or require Dish to carry the actual affiliate in order to provide an HD feed.) Ideally, for each diginet Dish would carry the national feed in HD, *and* map that feed to a local channel number. (Or simply include the channel in the locals package without mapping it down, and let viewers find it on their own.)


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH's carriage is based on the status of the station, not the content retransmitted. A full power station has retransmission rights for ONE subchannel via satellite whether they are a big four network or ION or MeTV or independent. They exercise that right by choosing "must carry" or "consent to carry" for their primary feed.

In the past DISH would negotiate with networks such as ION and TBN to deliver national signals to all (including markets without a local affiliate) in exchange for not carrying the local affiliate. (DIRECTV still does not carry full power broadcaster WHME in my market - they deliver a LeSea broadcasting feed nationwide in its place.) In recent years DISH switched to carrying the local affiliates and offering the national versions only in markets where there was no affiliates for ION.

I see the issue as making DISH equal to cable, which does carry the local feeds of the diginets - primarily because they can since all bandwidth is local and they are not burning spotbeam space to deliver multiple subchannels to each DMA in the country. DISH's compromise of carrying select diginets outside of the locals package helps with some diginets.

BTW: I stated that each full power station has the right to have one subchannel feed carried. It should be noted that many full power stations carry more than one major network. Sinclair stations doing that include WSBT in my market, 22.1 is CBS, 22.2 is Fox. While must carry/consent to carry only applies to their primary feed the stations can make carrying both feeds a condition of getting either. That works out well for DISH since they cannot import another feed (22.2 Fox blocks importing any other Fox affiliate, carried or not). When my market was originally launched on DISH WSBT had "SBT2" as a sub channel that carried the WB network. They negotiated at that time to include WSBT 22.2 as a condition of carrying WSBT 22.1 CBS. SBT2 continued to be carried until it was removed and replaced by the Fox affiliate - even though WB network went away several years before. So don't read "one subchannel" as a limit that prevents DISH from carrying other sub channels. Anything can be negotiated.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

On the subject of diginets, I would think many of them are a plus for Dish to carry, as especially the ones with Classic TV are an interest to older people and they are inexpensive to carry I have read. With me, a signal in HD is a plus, but I would rather have access to the channel even if only in SD. I do not know if Decades is in HD, but I could care less. That channel is hard to find as no one in Portland OR even carries it. It is not available for streaming as no service carries it. Decades is on in Seattle, if you can get in OTA. Dish does carry several diginets that aren't available in Portland, so that is really nice. I am hoping Decades may show up in time as it is a Weigel station.


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## Mister Coke (Jan 23, 2015)

I got Decades in HD....


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## Mister Coke (Jan 23, 2015)

How do I get the Fox guide off of Decades. Fox move to 8 .2 and Decades 11.1 but Dish still got Fox 11.1.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH needs to fix the mapping for your market. What are the call letters of the stations?


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## Mister Coke (Jan 23, 2015)

WVAH 11.1 Decades not Fox. on the OTA 11.0 is still F ox on Dish


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Mister Coke said:


> I got Decades in HD....


I wish we would get it. My big Dish has been out of commission for sometime. I am considering trying to get it back working just to get Decades.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mister Coke said:


> WVAH 11.1 Decades not Fox. on the OTA 11.0 is still F ox on Dish


DISH needs to update the mapping (internal channel 13223) to the right channel ID and subchannel.
Is channel 12.0 decades via DISH?


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## bjdotson (Feb 20, 2007)

From TVanswerman.

Dish and Sinclair Broadcast Group are close to a carriage deal which will likely include both the Sinclair-owned 112 local channels and the 19 Bally Sports regional sports networks (RSNs), according to a report last night from *Sports Business Journal's* John Ourand.

The current agreement between the two companies was set to expire on August 16 and Sinclair *issued a pre-deadline press release* saying it was likely that Dish would lose its local channels because a new agreement was not likely by then.

However, Sinclair revealed on August 16 that it had reached a short-term extension with Dish, and Ourand later wrote that they approved another extension until mid-September. *The Sports Business Journal reporter wrote last night a new extension takes the current pact into mid-October, which sources tell him that it's an indicator a deal is close.*

"Sources say the extensions are evidence that a deal is close at hand and likely will include carriage for Sinclair's Bally Sports RSNs," Ourand says.

Dish has been without the regional sports nets since July 2019 due to a separate carriage dispute. But even if a new deal is signed, Ourand writes that the satcaster may not resume carrying them until shortly before the 2022 Major League Baseball season. The Bally Sports nets have the regional TV rights to dozens of MLB, NHL and NBA teams.

"It's unlikely Dish will pick up the RSNs this year," the Sports Business Journal report states. "It's more likely that Dish will have them by MLB's opening day in the spring.

But SBJ's Ourand *reports* that a new deal for both the Sinclair locals and the sports channels is likely "within the next eight weeks"


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

As long as the local channels remain active I am satisfied. No outage (not even the 24 hours they had a few years ago). Getting the RSNs back would be good for the customers who want them but that customer group remains a minority of DISH subscribers. Perhaps it is time to make RSNs a premium channel package that is added on like HBO instead of a required part of AT120+ and above.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

bjdotson said:


> Dish has been without the regional sports nets since July 2019 due to a separate carriage dispute. *But even if a new deal is signed, Ourand writes that the satcaster may not resume carrying them until shortly before the 2022 Major League Baseball season.* The Bally Sports nets have the regional TV rights to dozens of MLB, NHL and NBA teams.


I am guessing that is around the time that whatever deal forced Dish to re-add the standard-def feeds to the out-of-market sports packages (MLB EI, NBA LP, NHL CI) expires. Dish made that change this year right before the start of baseball season, after going half of the NBA and NHL seasons with only HD feeds in those packages. So, my guess is that was only a one-year deal, and Dish is now trying for a new deal that starts when that one ends, and also includes in-market carriage this time around.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Sinclair is planning on launching a "direct to consumer" service just before the MLB season starts in 2022. Obviously that type of service cuts in to the value of carrying the RSNs as part of the DISH package. The old school packaging of channels where one had to buy a base level package to get one's local RSN or the sports pack add on for out of market RSNs. And the RSNs benefiting by requiring DISH and the other MVPDs carrying their channels to include the local RSN in most if not all packages - ensuring a large number of subscribers even if 10% or less of subscribers ever tuned to the channel.

Sinclair wants to change the dynamics and sell separately from MVPDs. That is fine with me. But what I don't want to see is Sinclair selling their channels as a required part of DISH packages and also undercutting the MVPD structure by selling their content separately. A la carte on all systems would be the solution. Sinclair could sell a "direct to consumer" service and DISH would not be required to bundle it with AT120+ and above. How DISH could help is to distribute the "direct to consumer" package via satellite as a premium add on, providing Sinclair a way to reach rural customers with limited streaming options.

HBO broke the mold a few years ago by introducing HBO Max as a standalone and selling it separate from MVPDs. It cost them their place on DISH Network when they demanded that DISH pay them for a minimum number of subscribers despite siphoning subscribers away by selling direct to consumer. An agreement to return the channels was eventually reached.

Since "before MLB 2022" is the target for Sinclair's direct to consumer offering it would make sense that the RSNs would relaunch at that time. Unless there is some interim carriage for the next few months. There also may be some restrictions in place due to AT&T's contract with Sinclair (most favored nation clauses where DISH can't get a better deal than AT&T - now DIRECTV - currently has). Details of these deals are rarely released but the "direct to consumer" plan may already be a part of the AT&T|DIRECTV deal. Or Sinclair may be more willing to accept the change to the AT&T|DIRECTV deal when they launch direct to consumer service.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> But what I don't want to see is Sinclair selling their channels as a required part of DISH packages and also undercutting the MVPD structure by selling their content separately.


Disney (ESPN) may have set a precedent here but the idea of tying LiL to RSNs is full goose bozo given that there is usually limited Sinclair owned programming on broadcast stations.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> Disney (ESPN) may have set a precedent here but the idea of tying LiL to RSNs is full goose bozo given that there is usually limited Sinclair owned programming on broadcast stations.


I am talking about Sinclair's RSNs, not broadcast stations, in the line you have quoted. There is plenty of content that is Sinclair only on the RSNs - and that is what Sinclair is planning on selling "direct to consumer" in 2022.

The LiL network broadcast channels are the post popular part of Sinclair's programming - programming not owned by Sinclair but they have the first air rights to various networks (which networks varies by market). Carrying the ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC affiliate (regardless of station owner) is not an absolute requirement for a MVPD but missing an affiliate is a competitive disadvantage. Sinclair knows this and sets their ransom rate accordingly. And being an owner across many markets they can charge higher rates in all of their markets. They have the leverage to demand more than an owner of a couple of stations. At the last OTA renewal Sinclair demanded the carriage of a cable channel. Now their demands include RSN carriage.

It doesn't matter how much content on the broadcast channels is Sinclair produced, they own the rights to retransmission within each market and that is worth something.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

harsh said:


> Disney (ESPN) may have set a precedent here but the idea of tying LiL to RSNs is full goose bozo given that there is usually limited Sinclair owned programming on broadcast stations.


It makes a lot more sense to tie LiL carriage to RSN carriage (both of which are regional in nature) than it does to tie LiL carriage to national cable channel carriage that includes many markets where the owner has no local presence. It especially makes sense for a company the size of Sinclair, that may own multiple affiliates in multiple local DMA's throughout each sports market territory.



James Long said:


> Since "before MLB 2022" is the target for Sinclair's direct to consumer offering it would make sense that the RSNs would relaunch at that time.


I still like my explanation for the timing, assuming the RSN's actually return at all. Dish negotiates directly with the leagues for the feeds they provide for their out-of-market packages, but Dish is also free to supplement those league-provided feeds with whatever other RSN feeds they can negotiate for those games, if I recall correctly. Failure to come to some kind of deal with Sinclair may leave Dish with only a *very* limited selection of league-provided feeds (such as only standard-def feeds for the games that are carried, for example) and almost certainly not both teams' feeds for each game. In any event, these types of changes almost always occur around the beginning of baseball season. Once again this year, that leaves some NBA and NHL fans out of luck until mid-season.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> Dish negotiates directly with the leagues for the feeds they provide for their out-of-market packages, but Dish is also free to supplement those league-provided feeds with whatever other RSN feeds they can negotiate for those games, if I recall correctly.


You are either recalling incorrectly or have found the most convoluted way of stating the situation. The league does not provide feeds. The league provides the rights to use the feeds of RSNs carrying the league's content. The rights are limited to out of market retransmission of only the content the league owns (the games) but the RSN cannot prevent DISH from using their feed for those games. In the current situation there would be a lot of missing "out of market" games if the RSN could prevent DISH from carrying their feeds. (DISH may choose not to carry both broadcasts of a game, but the league contract gives them the right to use Sinclair RSNs for games - even though DISH has no contract with Sinclair for carriage of RSNs.)

Out of market packages are good if the customer's team is out of market (and not playing an in market team that day). In market carriage of the games are solely up to who owns the rights to the game, usually the RSN. That is where getting a contract with Sinclair could help DISH - but considering the underwhelming popularity of RSNs, not having Sinclair RSNs has not done much damage.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Well I was hoping that the Bally Sports nets would be back by the beginning of basketball season. Does not look like that is going to be the case. It looks like I will be canceling Dish. I had them on pause for most of last basketball season and subscribed to the local cable company so we could watch basketball. For the past couple of months I have been paying for both services waiting to see how this played out because if Dish got the RSN's back in time for basketball I was going to cancel cable and keep Dish. I really wanted to keep Dish, their service is so much better as is their technology but not being able to watch the basketball games is a non-starter in this household, my wife is a huge fan and isn't happy with any tv service that doesn't have it. While I'm not as big of a fan as she, basketball is currently my favorite sport and of course I want her to be happy as well. Once the official announcement is made I will be calling Dish to cancel. I may come back in the future when either they start carrying the RSN's again or when Sinclair starts offering their RSN's as a streaming service and then I could have Dish and only subscribe to the streaming service during basketball season.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> In the current situation there would be a lot of missing "out of market" games if the RSN could prevent DISH from carrying their feeds.


I remember the discussion about the NBA League Pass free previews last year, and there were several games that were missing entirely from Dish (even though other providers had them) especially during the first free preview last season. I am not sure exactly what Dish's issue was then. For one of the NBA League Pass free previews, Dish missed one entire day's worth of games before finally putting the package in free preview.

I also remember years ago (with all of the sports packages) that Dish would often not have HD coverage of the games if Dish did not actually carry the RSN (providing the in-market coverage) for that team's market. This was especially true in the NHL Center Ice package when two Canadian teams would play each other. This created the impression that a contract for in-market carriage was required before certain feeds could be used in the out-of-market packages (NY RSN's were another such example) whether or not that actually was the case.

This seemed to be rectified last season, when Dish switched to all HD feeds for their out-of-market packages, completely dropping any standard-def feeds for those packages. That created an issue for viewers in Hawaii, since the HD feeds on 129 were not carried on a spotbeam that reaches Hawaii. That left Hawaii subscribers with only the select few games where the HD feed happened to be on CONUS on 110 or 119 that day. (This made watching the daily Sports Channel Changes in the Uplink Reports interesting last season.) This issue had been reported to Dish at the start of last year's NHL season, but was not fixed until baseball season. Before the MLB season started, Dish added standard-def feeds to all of the out-of-market packages again. Since those feeds tend to be carried on 110 or 119, this helps ensure that at least a standard-def signal will reach subscribers in Hawaii, whether or not the HD signal does.

It is understandable why the leagues would want their out-of-market packages to be carried as a *supplement* to the in-market carriage, rather than as the *only* way that the games are available through your service provider. They wouldn't want to create a situation where teams have an incentive to claim a *smaller* territory, in order to reach *more* viewers, all of whom would still be outside the core of the team's local market. So, I could see the leagues acting in solidarity with the RSN's, and imposing more restrictions on Dish's use of those RSN feeds until Dish finally reaches a contract for in-market carriage. The leagues would still provide the rights to a bare minimum of feeds to be able to claim that the out-of-market package is still available (while Dish is still under contract to provide that league's package) while restricting the rights to use certain other feeds if those RSN's (or teams) object loudly enough and have the clout within the league to get such restrictions imposed. Convoluted enough for you?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> Convoluted enough for you?


Yep. Teams are not going to shrink their home territories to get "out of market" carriage via one MVPD. Such shrinkage would remove "in market" subscribers on other MVPDs. If you are entering a contest for "stupid ideas" that may be a winner.

If the leagues have an issue with offering their "out of market" packages without carrying the in market RSNs why do they continue to offer their packages via DISH? The leagues want to make money. They make more money allowing DISH subscribers to subscribe to their "out of market" packages than arbitrarily refusing subscriptions. It seems that they would only be penalizing themselves.

So no, I do not agree with your convoluted opinions. But thank you for sharing them. Now, lets get back to the topic of the thread at hand. Sinclair's carriage contracts. No tin foil hat conspiracy theories needed.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> Yep. Teams are not going to shrink their home territories to get "out of market" carriage via one MVPD. Such shrinkage would remove "in market" subscribers on other MVPDs.


I was thinking of a "doomsday" scenario where multiple (maybe even most) MVPD's dropped the RSN's. Make an example of Dish to prevent other MVPD's from getting any ideas. Otherwise, if Dish succeeds (and other MVPD's follow suit) some teams may feel that any additional viewers (even out-of-market ones) would be better than hardly any in-market viewers at all.



James Long said:


> If the leagues have an issue with offering their "out of market" packages without carrying the in market RSNs why do they continue to offer their packages via DISH?


We don't know the details of their contracts. The RSN's have been gone only a relatively short period of time (within the last couple of years). Therefore, it is likely that Dish's long-term contracts with the leagues were all signed before the RSN's were removed, and now the leagues are stuck with those contracts.


James Long said:


> The leagues want to make money.


Exactly. It has been posted in other threads discussing sports rights and the rates charged for RSN's that the leagues make much more money from *in-market* carriage (even indirectly through the middle-men RSN's) than they do from any out-of-market viewers. Local advertisers won't pay to reach those distant viewers. The rates charged for out-of-market RSN's (when they were still available through Multi-Sport) are pennies on the dollar compared to the in-market rate. So yes, the leagues would want to protect their *primary* source of television revenue. Sticking to the topic of this thread, the leagues make more money if the Sinclair RSN's are carried on as many providers as possible. This would give them a reason to get involved in trying to influence the negotiations.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> I was thinking of a "doomsday" scenario where multiple (maybe even most) MVPD's dropped the RSN's.


We are not there ... and this thread is about Sinclair's channels.



crodrules said:


> Exactly. It has been posted in other threads discussing sports rights and the rates charged for RSN's that the leagues make much more money from *in-market* carriage (even indirectly through the middle-men RSN's) than they do from any out-of-market viewers.


The RSNs pay the same regardless of if they are carried on DISH or not. There is no financial benefit to the proposed scheme you are promoting. Zero, zilch, none. There would be a financial penalty if leagues followed your advice. The leagues are smarter than you ... move on.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> I am talking about Sinclair's RSNs, not broadcast stations, in the line you have quoted. There is plenty of content that is Sinclair only on the RSNs - and that is what Sinclair is planning on selling "direct to consumer" in 2022.


I'm talking about why the RSNs shouldn't be attached to the broadcast stations and that seems to be the number two point of this dispute -- the first being money.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Mentioning disputes, I guess streaming services are not immune to them either. There is a dispute looming NBC Universal and You Tube TV, where the viewers may lose at least 14 channels. If the dispute comes to pass, I can easily see You Tube being dropped for another service. You Tube TV for a streaming service is already expensive. There are those that say streaming services are less compared to Dish. Some skinny packages are but the viewer does not get the good variety we get from Dish.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> The RSNs pay the same regardless of if they are carried on DISH or not. There is no financial benefit to the proposed scheme you are promoting. Zero, zilch, none. There would be a financial penalty if leagues followed your advice. The leagues are smarter than you ... move on.


If the Sinclair RSN's are not carried on Dish, that lack of revenue affects how much Sinclair would be willing to pay (maybe even how much they are *able* to pay) the *next* time they negotiate for the rights with the leagues. So, it does have a long-term impact.

You are the one proposing that the Sinclair RSN's should be broken out as a separate premium package, instead of being bundled into the base package. What do you think happens to in-market viewership if that practice becomes widespread? Some fans may still be willing to pay the league for a bundle that includes all of the out-of-market games. However, some of those same fans may *not* be willing to pay a single dime more for a single channel that used to be included for "free" with their base package. Do you really think that Dish will lower the price of AT120+ by enough to offset the price of Sinclair's stand-alone offering? Do you think *any* provider would do that? The bottom line is that customers will still be asked to pay the same amount for their base packages that they had been paying when RSN's were still included. Except now, they will be asked to pay even more on top of that if they actually want the RSN's. Eventually, it gets to the point where enough is enough.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Sinclair is who is proposing selling their RSNs as a separate package. If they do that I believe that should extend to their via MVPD services. They shouldn't be able to have it both ways.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> Sinclair is who is proposing selling their RSNs as a separate package. If they do that I believe that should extend to their via MVPD services. They shouldn't be able to have it both ways.


Even if the RSN's never return to Dish, it would still be a price increase for those who want them, since Dish never lowered the prices of their packages (AT120+ and above, etc.) that used to include them, to reflect their removal.

I do see one possible advantage for customers, with Sinclair being a completely separate offering. They would no longer be required to keep a Dish package at the AT120+ or above tier in order to qualify for them. So, they could drop down to a lower Dish package, or drop Dish entirely, and still get RSN's.

So, if the RSN's do return to Dish, and are offered as a premium add-on, I would certainly hope that there is no minimum qualifying package required in order to get them. Something like Locals Only plus the RSN's as an add-on (or at least making them available with *some* low-tier package such as International Basic or Welcome Pack) would be a welcome change and a real winner in my opinion. This is the only way I see things working out well for Sinclair in this scenario. The Dish subscribers with packages that previously didn't qualify for RSN's, who would now sign up for them, would help offset the loss of subscribers from the upper tiers who choose to opt out of receiving them. Something similar would also have to play out on the other MVPD's with their offerings.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH made the offer to Altitude (not accepted, of course) to sell Altitude as an a la carte to only the customers willing to pay extra. DISH would let Altitude set the price and was willing to pass through the entire cost. DISH made the offer knowing full well that it would not be accepted ... that Altitude wanted nearly every DISH customer in their market area to pay for a subscription whether they wanted Altitude or not (common exceptions for AT120 and below). DISH has made that offer to other RSNs. No takers.

With Sinclair preparing to go "direct to consumer" next year I feel they should accept the offer from DISH. Whether DISH carries the channels at low margins or no margin to be decided, but I expect AT120+ to remain a requirement. The margin would need to be considerable for DISH to sell customers JUST the Sinclair RSN package without something to cover the base cost of service.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> Whether DISH carries the channels at low margins or no margin to be decided, but I expect AT120+ to remain a requirement.


If AT120+ is still a requirement, then they may as well just add the RSN's to the Multi-Sport Pack (which already comes with a requirement of AT120+ or above) instead of making the RSN's a separate package. This would be just like the way it was before, except that Multi-Sport would now be required to get the in-market RSN's (full feed) in addition to the out-of-market ones (with blackouts). This would give Dish something of value that they could use in order to advertise Multi-Sport. They can't consistently count on RedZone, since the NFL contract runs out every few years, leaving Dish without NFL Network and RedZone all summer, with uncertainty heading into the NFL season in each of those years whether the channels will actually return or not.

So, with the timing of the contracts staggered, Dish could switch the focus of their Multi-Sport advertising to RSN's in the years when the NFL status is uncertain. Once the NFL contract is settled, Dish could switch the advertising push back to those channels, with an extra emphasis on NFL in years when the RSN status is uncertain. The price of Multi-Sport should therefore remain the same as it is now, with a guarantee that it will always contain either RSN's or NFL RedZone, just not necessarily both at the same time, depending on the timing of the contracts.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

crodrules said:


> If AT120+ is still a requirement, then they may as well just add the RSN's to the Multi-Sport Pack (which already comes with a requirement of AT120+ or above) instead of making the RSN's a separate package.


The issue is whether or not Altitude (or Sinclair) would accept such a deal where subscribers could opt out of subscribing their RSNs. I don't think they would as they want their viggerish from as many as possible and that comes in the form of inclusion in >AT120 packages.

Of course the ugly part here is that Sinclair appears (to me anyway) to be tying their LiL retransmission to an RSN mandate and that's wrong on so many levels given why local channels exist.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Ok ... the Sinclair announcement channels are back. But the message isn't about the negotiations, it is about the ransomware attack:

*IMPORTANT MESSAGE ABOUT ONE OF YOUR LOCAL CHANNELS*

*Sinclair is experiencing technical issues as a result of a recent ransomware attack.*

The technical issues are causing problems with broadcasting some of their content,
such as local news programs, displaying incorrect information in the programming
guide and DVR recording issuses.

This is impacting all pay TV providers, not just DISH.

Sinclair is working on getting this resolved as quickly as possible.​


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

James Long said:


> Ok ... the Sinclair announcement channels are back. But the message isn't about the negotiations, it is about the ransomware attack:
> 
> *IMPORTANT MESSAGE ABOUT ONE OF YOUR LOCAL CHANNELS*
> 
> ...


The attack hit our local Sinclair owned CBS outlet yesterday. Their local newscasts were limited to a single reporter working from a remote studio with a fixed camera and minimal video cut-ins. They seemed to have things working again by the 11:00 PM newscast though. At least the network feeds weren't affected...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Last night's weather graphics on my local Sinclair affiliate ...








No background audio (music tracks). No wipes or special graphics. They had very basic graphics (such as names under newscaster's names). Very basic. The newscast opened with an apology for the lack of technology but they did fairly well with camera angles around the studio to provide some variety.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Between disputes and ransomware, it is a miricle we end up with any OTA.


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## dishrich (Apr 23, 2002)

Sinclair Grants Another One-Week Extension in Dish Carriage Talks


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

dishrich said:


> Sinclair Grants Another One-Week Extension in Dish Carriage Talks


I wonder if Sinclair is a little too busy trying to straighten out their ransomware issues to negotiate. Our CBS outlet is still not getting ad feeds from Sinclair. The only ads we see on that channel are on network and syndicated programming, with no local ads.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Since it's fairly evident that the RSN's aren't coming back any time soon I canceled Dish, been a subscriber for 18 yrs. I was patient as I could be, even just putting my service on pause last basketball season. I will miss my Hopper, my Spectrum DVR doesn't even come close. If they ever get the RSN's back I will consider taking them up on one of those "we miss you, please come back" deals that will probably start coming my way.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Let them di$pute into the next decade. The National and Regional $port$ Network$ are the mo$t expen$ive "ba$ic" channel$ on a per-$ub$criber ba$i$, and the contract$ are $tructured $o that, out$ide the mo$t ba$ic package, the channel$ are required to be carried in a package whether you watch them or not.


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## Willh (Jan 1, 2009)

not to mention that Sinclair's wrestling promotion Ring Of Honor Wrestling announced yesterday that it would go into a Hiatus after Final Battle in December, which they will reboot the company in April of next year with Supercard Of Honor in April as they have a venue booked for the event usually held in the WrestleMania host city during WrestleMania week (the Super Bowl of pro wrestling), Supercard Of Honor is being held in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex area next year as that's the WrestleMania 38 host city. Sinclair also laid off the entire ROH roster yesterday when they made the announcement of the hiatus in which all talents under contract will be released at the end of the year and some talent could just get the green light to work elsewhere immediately. 

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


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## MVL999 (May 14, 2004)

dishrich said:


> Sinclair Grants Another One-Week Extension in Dish Carriage Talks


Any updates? The agreement was supposed to end yesterday?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'll take "no news is good news". DISH did take down the announcement channels yesterday (they were being used for a message about the ransomware attack). There are still Sinclair stations having difficulty due to the ransomware attack. Sinclair's focus has been on getting all of their stations running with the correct programming.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

MVL999 said:


> Any updates? The agreement was supposed to end yesterday?


Most likely another extension. Sinclair is still struggling with the effects of the ransomware attack. Our local Sinclair outlet still doesn't have their local commercial feeds back. Sinclair is losing millions in revenue...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NYDutch said:


> I wonder if Sinclair is a little too busy trying to straighten out their ransomware issues to negotiate.


I can't imagine that the people involved in the negotiations are actively engaged in addressing issues created by the ransomware attack.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> I can't imagine that the people involved in the negotiations are actively engaged in addressing issues created by the ransomware attack.


Lots of high end folks, including the legal department, are likely involved in dealing with a huge influx of complaints from advertisers not getting the exposure they contracted for. Plus the people working on getting the needed tech resources to resolve the issues. They may even be negotiating with the ransomware folks. That's a lot of fires to put out. Since Dish routinely offers "make whole" extensions during retrans agreement negotiations nearing expiration where the ultimately agreed on terms are retroactive to the original expiration date, Sinclair loses nothing by extending in the interim while they deal with the more critical issues.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NYDutch said:


> Lots of high end folks, including the legal department, are likely involved in dealing with a huge influx of complaints from advertisers not getting the exposure they contracted for. Plus the people working on getting the needed tech resources to resolve the issues.


The negotiations are happening at the national level. I reason that those people aren't all that involved in station operations -- they're just managing the franchising level things.

They have their problems too but they can still use a telephone to do must of their business.

No amount of lawyering up is going to address the ransomware or the technical problems it has caused.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The ransomware attack was at the national level as well and as noted was still having an effect on operations of local stations more than a week after the attack. They were not able to air the correct programming and commercials on many of their stations. Unrelated to the ransomware attack, major league sports are pushing back against Sinclair's desire to start a stand alone RSN streaming package. National problems that would affect a national negotiation to renew their carriage on DISH.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> The negotiations are happening at the national level. I reason that those people aren't all that involved in station operations -- they're just managing the franchising level things.
> 
> They have their problems too but they can still use a telephone to do must of their business.
> 
> No amount of lawyering up is going to address the ransomware or the technical problems it has caused.


As James said, it's the national level problems that are affecting the local level programming. As I've said, our local Sinclair CBS outlet is STILL unable to show local level commercials because the feeds for those commercials come from the national level. Sinclair manages the local ad feeds, ad contracts, and ad billing at the national level.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NYDutch said:


> As James said, it's the national level problems that are affecting the local level programming. As I've said, our local Sinclair CBS outlet is STILL unable to show local level commercials because the feeds for those commercials come from the national level. Sinclair manages the local ad feeds, ad contracts, and ad billing at the national level.


But that's probably not why the weather graphics are being done on white boards.

Again, none of this likely involves the technicians that are trying to put things back together (unless they're buying all new equipment to replace all the Windows hardware).


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> But that's probably not why the weather graphics are being done on white boards.
> 
> Again, none of this likely involves the technicians that are trying to put things back together (unless they're buying all new equipment to replace all the Windows hardware).


Our local Sinclair outlet does have their weather graphics back up, but still aren't getting the local advertising feeds from the Sinclair mother ship. As long as Sinclair is willing to keep granting extensions, why would Dish be in any hurry to settle?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

A few posts back harsh wrote:


harsh said:


> I can't imagine that the people involved in the negotiations are actively engaged in addressing issues created by the ransomware attack.


While harsh seems to suffer from a lack of imagination, I CAN imagine that the ransomware attack - which is still affecting my Sinclair local stations two weeks later (and no, my market isn't Sinclair's smallest market) - has become an all hands on deck focus for the corporation. I can imagine the decision makers saying "Get an extension, we have more pressing matters to deal with!"

I cannot imagine Sinclair working in such a siloed environment where there is a carriage negotiation team that can work autonomously from upper management that they could negotiate and sign a long term renewal of one of the company's largest carriage contracts. I cannot imagine Sinclair's upper management wanting to rush into a decision that would either remove 108 broadcast TV stations, including 97 ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC affiliates (no extension) or accept a deal that would lock them in to a long term renewal that they would not be happy with when the dust settles.

The safe bet now is status quo ... Sinclair are still being paid for the 3.5 million subscribers they will lose if they refuse a renewal. Sinclair can put the millions of dollars they are collecting in carriage fees toward replacing and upgrading their systems and hardening their systems against the next attack. DISH is more than willing to continue the status quo while Sinclair works out their problems.

Yeah, the person answering the phone (if that is working  ) when DISH calls for a negotiation update isn't the same person who is rebuilding servers and systems and probably isn't the person who is explaining to advertisers why their ads are not running correctly. But do you think the person answering the phone has the authority to negotiate a long term deal WITHOUT involving upper management?


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

Along with the local ads not being fed to our local Sinclair outlet, I noticed last night the Sinclair produced "Full Measure with Sharyl Attkisson" was not fed either, replaced by a simulcast of their Comet sub-channel. That's even more money Sinclair is losing in ad revenue...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> While harsh seems to suffer from a lack of imagination, I CAN imagine that the ransomware attack - which is still affecting my Sinclair local stations two weeks later (and no, my market isn't Sinclair's smallest market) - has become an all hands on deck focus for the corporation.


What talents do you suppose these negotiators bring to the table when it comes to technical issues? Do you think they've been negotiating with the ransomers all this time?

What are the chances that the ransomers can actually undo the damage?


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> What talents do you suppose these negotiators bring to the table when it comes to technical issues? Do you think they've been negotiating with the ransomers all this time?
> 
> What are the chances that the ransomers can actually undo the damage?


Are you thinking that Sinclair employs dedicated negotiators that have no other responsibilities? I suspect Sinclair very much wishes the technical issues were the only problems they were dealing with instead of the hundreds of dissatisfied advertisers/agencies and disgruntled station managers they're dealing with. Why would Dish be in any hurry to settle as long as Sinclair is willing to keep offering extensions? That's money in the bank earning interest for Dish...


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

DIsh should be perfectly fine with continuing extensions until Sinclair is ready to negotiate.

Sinclair is probably going to put EVERY employee through IT Security Training again, maybe even a tailored version going over this problem. IT is probably up to their A** in alligators right now, then they need to figure out how to harden things to try to prevent this from happening again. I certainly would not want to be in their shoes right now....


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> What talents do you suppose these negotiators bring to the table when it comes to technical issues? Do you think they've been negotiating with the ransomers all this time?


Please read the entire previous post before you respond. I realize it has some big words, but it isn't THAT hard to understand.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NYDutch said:


> Are you thinking that Sinclair employs dedicated negotiators that have no other responsibilities?


I'm thinking that the main office is made up of administrators rather than front-line technicians. Some may have "ascended" from the technical ranks but that's probably the edge case.

With 294 stations either owned or operated (or indirectly owned ) under the Sinclair umbrella (along with the RSN stuff), oversight is surely a major operation.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> I'm thinking that the main office is made up of administrators rather than front-line technicians. Some may have "ascended" from the technical ranks but that's probably the edge case.
> 
> With 294 stations either owned or operated (or indirectly owned ) under the Sinclair umbrella (along with the RSN stuff), oversight is surely a major operation.


You seem to be stuck on the notion that the only issues Sinclair is dealing with are technical. Do you not understand that those technical issues also created many logistical, legal, and financial issues? Since Sinclair is willing to keep offering extensions, and Dish is more than happy to accept them, why the insistence the retrans contract needs to be settled right now?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Please read the entire previous post before you respond.


I did read the whole post and I remain unconvinced by your reasoning. I think the issue that is keeping us apart is our respective understanding of the scale of the Sinclair operation.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NYDutch said:


> You seem to be stuck on the notion that the only issues Sinclair is dealing with are technical. Do you not understand that those technical issues also created many logistical, legal, and financial issues?


I understand that once the issues are solved, there will be a lot of settling up that needs to be done with respect to breach of contract but that's a fast-moving target at this point.


> Since Sinclair is willing to keep offering extensions, and Dish is more than happy to accept them, why the insistence the retrans contract needs to be settled right now?


I've never suggested that Sinclair needs to rush the DISH negotiations. The only thing they need to rush is fixing the technical problems. Addressing/assessing the fallout before the full extent of the damage is known isn't particularly useful. If the ads aren't playing, the advertisers don't pay and that's another future worry that there's little hope of reversing.

During the technical downtime, I don't see much point in trying to get ahead of a problem of scale that isn't known yet.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> I did read the whole post and I remain unconvinced by your reasoning. I think the issue that is keeping us apart is our respective understanding of the scale of the Sinclair operation.


As noted, you lack the imagination to see the bigger picture. You apparently imagine autonomous administrators committing the company to multi-million dollar contracts without needing the approval of upper management. I imagine upper management facing several challenges making the decision not to inflict any self inflicted wounds.

Sinclair stock has dropped over 16% over the last month (20% Sept 27th - Oct 29th). Net income was down 231.75% (yes, over 200%) in the 2nd Quarter. Operating income down over 140%. Sinclair is struggling. That is the bigger picture and more reason to "let it ride" on the status quo while the company works out their many problems.



harsh said:


> I've never suggested that Sinclair needs to rush the DISH negotiations.


Then why do you care what Sinclair is doing with their time?


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> I understand that once the issues are solved, there will be a lot of settling up that needs to be done with respect to breach of contract but that's a fast-moving target at this point.I've never suggested that Sinclair needs to rush the DISH negotiations. The only thing they need to rush is fixing the technical problems. Addressing/assessing the fallout before the full extent of the damage is known isn't particularly useful. If the ads aren't playing, the advertisers don't pay and that's another future worry that there's little hope of reversing.
> 
> During the technical downtime, I don't see much point in trying to get ahead of a problem of scale that isn't known yet.


You're missing the fact that many advertisers/agencies have already paid and have contracts for specific ad placements that are not being met. The contract lawyers on both sides are likely staying very busy...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> As noted, you lack the imagination to see the bigger picture. You apparently imagine autonomous administrators committing the company to multi-million dollar contracts without needing the approval of upper management.


The people in the main office are administrators. They're likely not engineers or tech people. I don't imagine there's many levels above them.


> Then why do you care what Sinclair is doing with their time?


I'm taking this position to counter those who say that nothing is happening because management is obviously otherwise engaged in addressing technical and engineering issues.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> The people in the main office are administrators. They're likely not engineers or tech people. I don't imagine there's many levels above them.I'm taking this position to counter those who say that nothing is happening because management is obviously otherwise engaged in addressing technical and engineering issues.


You left out the number of people engaged in addressing complaints and legal issues...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NYDutch said:


> You left out the number of people engaged in addressing complaints and legal issues...


As I said previously, until the extent of the damage is known, there's not a whole lot to talk about. Just take a number.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> As I said previously, until the extent of the damage is known, there's not a whole lot to talk about. Just take a number.


Do you really think multi-million dollar clients would be satisfied with that response? Think again...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> As I said previously, until the extent of the damage is known, there's not a whole lot to talk about. Just take a number.


Sure I'll take a number. How about the number of a competing station in town?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Sure I'll take a number. How about the number of a competing station in town?


That's the magic of franchises. There is no competition for the networks that Sinclair delivers.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NYDutch said:


> Do you really think multi-million dollar clients would be satisfied with that response?


Even the largest enterprises understand that badgering doesn't make repairs go faster.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

harsh said:


> Even the largest enterprises understand that badgering doesn't make repairs go faster.


Of course they know that, and they also know that failing to deliver on a contract carries consequences.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> That's the magic of franchises. There is no competition for the networks that Sinclair delivers.


False information. Networks can easily change stations. It has happened several times in my market (including two years ago when Sinclair picked up the Fox affiliation to go with their existing CBS affiliation). If a station doesn't perform the network can find another affiliate ... and finding another affiliate is easier when a market isn't limited to one channel per license. I have also watched syndicated programming move from station to station over the years. If Sinclair fails to honor their commitment to air programming there could be financial penalties attached and they could lose the rights to programming when it next comes up for renewal. Fulfilling their contracts is not optional.

From an advertiser's point of view they would want their advertisements to be seen. On schedule with no disruptions. Several minutes of a "technical difficulties" slate STILL AIRING each hour instead of local commercials during prime time cannot be helping each local Sinclair affiliate. If the station doesn't play the ads the station doesn't get paid. If the station doesn't get paid the station cannot pay their affiliation fees.

For the sake of the survival of the Sinclair stations they MUST fix all of their technical issues, get all of their advertisements back on the air and regain the confidence of their advertisers so they won't turn to other stations. Telling advertisers to "take a number" when they complain isn't a good way of keeping them as advertisers.

At the moment DISH's carriage contract with Sinclair is helping Sinclair survive. While DISH is only one of many companies paying for carriage, overall Sinclair is collecting more than twice in revenue from carriage contracts than they do from their advertisers. Losing 3.5 million DISH subscribers paying for their channels would not be a good thing.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Networks can easily change stations.


Certainly, but they can't do it each and every time a carriage dispute happens.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> Certainly, but they can't do it each and every time a carriage dispute happens.


Not the argument being made. You stated that their is no competition for the networks Sinclair carries. I have demonstrated that stations DO compete to carry the networks (as each network affiliation contract with the station expires). Affiliation changes from one station to another within markets are too numerous for me to bother track. Suffice it to say that they do happen.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

James Long said:


> Not the argument being made. You stated that their is no competition for the networks Sinclair carries. I have demonstrated that stations DO compete to carry the networks (as each network affiliation contract with the station expires). Affiliation changes from one station to another within markets are too numerous for me to bother track. Suffice it to say that they do happen.


Affiliation changes absolutely happen... Our local Sinclair outlet at various times in its long history under various ownership has been affiliated with ABC, CBS, NBC, and even DuMont back in the day.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

And for reference I am thinking bigger picture. Not the consumer level where a home viewer can't get a network's programming via OTA or satellite/cable except via the local affiliate (although non-broadcast delivery is available) or the consumer who can't watch many of the games their regional sports team (NBA, MLB, NHA) plays due to contracts with an RSN (most of them owned by Sinclair). I am thinking at the corporate level. A broadcast network that is looking at their affiliates and wondering if they are the best station in the market to carry their content. And a company (like Sinclair) that needs to collect revenue to be able to meet the cost of paying for their affiliation agreements.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Suffice it to say that they do happen.


But in the context of a carriage dispute, they don't happen quickly enough to solve the problem. My point was that for the primary networks there typically aren't a lot of options that satisfy the rules for market eligibility.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> I am thinking at the corporate level. A broadcast network that is looking at their affiliates and wondering if they are the best station in the market to carry their content. And a company (like Sinclair) that needs to collect revenue to be able to meet the cost of paying for their affiliation agreements.


Which is fine but it really offers no immediate (nor necessarily long-term) alternatives for the viewers which is who we're concerned about. We're a relatively self-interested lot when it comes to our TV availability.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The channels remain on DISH so "no worries mate"!

My local versions are still having problems - but they have changed the "technical difficulties" slate to "programming will return". I have not seen a prime time program on my local Sinclair owned station without at least one "programming will return" break lasting a couple of minutes (apparently triggered by a black silent screen when local content is not playing during commercial breaks).


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

James Long said:


> The channels remain on DISH so "no worries mate"!
> 
> My local versions are still having problems - but they have changed the "technical difficulties" slate to "programming will return". I have not seen a prime time program on my local Sinclair owned station without at least one "programming will return" break lasting a couple of minutes (apparently triggered by a black silent screen when local content is not playing during commercial breaks).


All we see here during those breaks is a station logo slate. Sinclair owns the primary CBS station here, but we're still at our dual DMA service address, so sometimes we watch the network programming on the other non-Sinclair CBS station.


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## juan ellitinez (Jan 31, 2003)

James Long said:


> And for reference I am thinking bigger picture. Not the consumer level where a home viewer can't get a network's programming via OTA or satellite/cable except via the local affiliate (although non-broadcast delivery is available) or the consumer who can't watch many of the games their regional sports team (NBA, MLB, NHA) plays due to contracts with an RSN (most of them owned by Sinclair). I am thinking at the corporate level. A broadcast network that is looking at their affiliates and wondering if they are the best station in the market to carry their content. And a company (like Sinclair) that needs to collect revenue to be able to meet the cost of paying for their affiliation agreements.


Sinclair has markets where they control multiple network affiliates...like syracuse and rochester ny..can anyone say monopoly?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

juan ellitinez said:


> Sinclair has markets where they control multiple network affiliates...like syracuse and rochester ny..can anyone say monopoly?


The FCC allows it in some markets, including mine. As previously noted, Sinclair has both the CBS and Fox affiliations on their one licensed station. The previous Fox affiliate carried "Heroes and Icons" on two separate subchannels for several years - the station has now been sold to the local NBC affiliate and carries seven diginets.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> I have not seen a prime time program on my local Sinclair owned station without at least one "programming will return" break lasting a couple of minutes (apparently triggered by a black silent screen when local content is not playing during commercial breaks).


That may reflect more on your station than on the greater Sinclair family. My local Sinclair station (KATU -- ABC) seems to be holding their own through these troubles.

Yours may be something like one or two of the stations in southern Oregon where master control is (or at least was at one time) in Sacramento.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

Our local Sinclair outlet here in the Northeast finally got their local ad feeds back. I also noticed they had the Sinclair owned "Full Measure with Sharyl Attkisson" feed back last night before I changed the channel.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

The threat is over!

DISH and Sinclair Reach New Multi-Year Carriage Agreement


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

- Agreement maintains carriage of local Sinclair channels on DISH TV, and Tennis Channel on DISH TV and SLING TV
- Multi-year agreement ensures DISH customers long-term access to channels
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. and HUNT VALLEY, Md., Nov. 15, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- DISH Network Corporation and Sinclair Broadcast Group today announced they have reached a new, multi-year carriage agreement, ensuring Sinclair's owned 144 local stations, across 86 markets nationwide, will remain on DISH TV, and the Tennis Channel will remain available on DISH TV and SLING TV.

"We are pleased to have reached a multi-year agreement with Sinclair after months of negotiations," said Brian Neylon, group president, DISH TV. "Sinclair has been a good long-term partner to work with. Both sides have been committed to keeping our customers top of mind and not putting them in the middle of our negotiations. After several contract extensions, we have arrived at a fair agreement that benefits all parties, especially our customers."

William Bell, Sinclair's Head of Distribution & Network Relations commented, "Our agreement with DISH reflects the continued importance that distributors place on local and national broadcast content. We look forward to continuing to provide DISH viewers with the high-quality and highly-desired entertainment, and timely local news that they depend on every day."


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

No mention of RSN?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> No mention of RSN?


one of the articles I've read indicate RSN's are not part of the deal.


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## glrush (Jun 29, 2002)

Dish and Sinclair have a new carriage deal, but RSNs are (unsurprisingly) not included (awfulannouncing.com)


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

From Sports Business Journal:

*Dish-Sinclair deal does not include Bally RSNs*


> Dish Network completed a deal with Sinclair that, notably, does not involve carriage of the Bally Sports-branded RSNs.


FULL ARTICLE HERE

*SBJ Media: Inside the Sinclair-Dish Network deal*


> Sinclair and Dish Network have ended negotiations around the Bally Sports RSNs, meaning that the satellite distributor is unlikely to carry the local sports channels for at least the next several years, if ever, according to several sources. (...) Word is that Sinclair execs became worried that Dish Network had no intention of ever signing an RSN deal and was stringing along the negotiations. The idea is that Sinclair would lose a lot of negotiating leverage on its local stations once the highly rated NFL season ends.


FULL ARTICLE HERE


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## Abe12 (Jun 11, 2020)

My Regional MPLS Tribune says negotiations are done with the Bally RSN's and Dish TV. The paper said Sinclair with leverage from NFL sports felt Dish has no interest in the local sports and decided to sign the local channels package feeling Dish has no interest in the local sports packages. Huge article today on it. The writer felt Dish is through negotiating with Bally on those local sports. There was even mention of the later next year deal with Comcast being threatened to leave. Bankruptcy for sinclair is a threat. Some mention of the sports taking over production of there own content themselves. Didn't really follow that. Bond markets went down after hearing the news of this agreement with locals only.


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## psanrules (Dec 31, 2021)

crodrules said:


> Fortunately, this specific channel is one that just happened to recently launch a local translator in my area. My stationary rooftop antenna does not pick it up since it is a low-power station, and my antenna is aimed in a different direction. My next step will be to start experimenting with an indoor antenna, to see if I can actually get that translator reliably.





crodrules said:


> I still cannot get a scan to even find WOHZ. (Our local low-powered translator of WOIO and WUAB.)





crodrules said:


> So, it looks like in order to successfully pick up WOHZ, I will have no choices but to either have someone re-aim my rooftop antenna, or try to find a better model of indoor antenna to use.





crodrules said:


> I used to receive this station consistently before the repack. The move to channel 20 seems to have made it harder for me to receive it.





Michael P said:


> WOHZ is a low power repeater while WTVS is a full power signal that may skip in regularly especially since there is not much ground clutter over Lake Erie. You may need a highly directional antenna aimed at Mansfield.





crodrules said:


> I do give Gray Media Group credit for at least launching a local translator in my area (purchasing the existing WOHZ). None of the other Cleveland stations have bothered to do anything similar here. Now, it is just a matter of actually *receiving* that translator's signal.


I stumbled across this, so I thought I would post some relevant information about why WOHZ's signal would no longer be receivable in Mansfield. Unfortunately, after acquiring that station, Gray Media Group moved WOHZ's City of License to Canton, and now transmits its signal from Canton instead of Mansfield. From what I can find on the FCC's website, it looks like this move took place in September, around the same time as the above conversation.

For what it's worth, Gray Media Group also has another low-power sister station (WTCL) in the Cleveland market broadcasting from Parma. It is Cleveland's new Telemundo affiliate, and also simulcasts the main CBS (WOIO) and CW (WUAB) feeds on subchannels. Unfortunately, neither WTCL nor WOHZ reach the Mansfield area with their OTA signal, despite WOHZ being originally licensed to Mansfield before it was sold to Gray. So, there are still no OTA translators of any Cleveland stations serving the Mansfield area.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

I am glad Gray TV is interested in translators. Meredith sold to Gray and they have a translator out here on the Northern Oregon Coast along with Sinclair, Nexstar, Tegna, OPB (PBS), Gray TV, and Weigel. Weigel is and LPTV.


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