# Vip622 OTA Problem



## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

I have an antenna mounted on the roof with 50' RG6 cable. One splitter, 1 lead going to the OTA tuner on my Samsung DLP TV, and the other going to the Vi622 OTA tuner. When I use the OTA tuner on my TV I have no problem. I can watch TV all day with out signal loss. When I switch to Vip622 I get signal loss and pixel problems. E* has replaced (3) units with 4 different tech. Still have problem. Is it a software issue like to HDMI problem.

Fred


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

It probably has more to do with the sensitivity of the two OTA tuners. What kind of signal strength are you getting (both on the TV and on the 622)?


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## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

lakebum431 said:


> It probably has more to do with the sensitivity of the two OTA tuners. What kind of signal strength are you getting (both on the TV and on the 622)?


According to the signal meter on TV tuner 6 out of 10 bars. Vip622 tuner shows
channel 21.1 at 92-97 % - 27.1 at 97-99 - 33.1 75-83. I get pixelization when signal show (channel 21.1 94%) . As an old HAM operator I think I understand antenna's and cabling. The furthest station is 6.5 miles away according to antennaweb.org.

Fred


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## wje (Mar 8, 2006)

If the stations are so close, try an attenuator. You could very well be overloading the OTA tuner.


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## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

wje said:


> If the stations are so close, try an attenuator. You could very well be overloading the OTA tuner.


So basically you're saying that the Vip622 OTA tuner is not as good as the OTA tuner on my TV.
I will try your suggestion.

Fred


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## skyviewmark1 (Sep 28, 2006)

Had the same problem with my OTA . I solved the problem by dropping the gain on my amplifier and the drop-out disapeared.. So basically the signal was being overdriven. Try the attenuator.


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

fmcomputer said:


> So basically you're saying that the Vip622 OTA tuner is not as good as the OTA tuner on my TV.
> I will try your suggestion.
> 
> Fred


Very likely. I would assume that you TV is a much more expensive piece of equipment than the 622. I haven't had any problems with the 622 because I left everything exactly the same when I switched my 942, but when I first got the 942 I was overloading the box, when I turned the antenna a bit away from the direction of the tower everything worked great.


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## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

skyviewmark1 said:


> Had the same problem with my OTA . I solved the problem by dropping the gain on my amplifier and the drop-out disapeared.. So basically the signal was being overdriven. Try the attenuator.


Well I went out and purchaed an attenuator, no help. What kind of antenna are you using..

Fred


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## wje (Mar 8, 2006)

fmcomputer said:


> So basically you're saying that the Vip622 OTA tuner is not as good as the OTA tuner on my TV.
> I will try your suggestion.
> 
> Fred


Not necessarily. It could just be more sensitive than the tuner in your TV.
However, typically, the electronics in upscale TVs is better than what's in any DVR... they cost more, they can use more expensive components. This is particularly the case for the scaler/deinterlacer/video processors. That's why it would be nice if the 622 provided native passthrough. My TV does a much better job at scaling than either the 622 or D*'s HR10.


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## vfrn1 (Sep 17, 2006)

Hey Fred,

Did you ever come to any conclusion as to why the OTA tuner on the 622
wasn't working for your setup? I am a recent (less than 1 week) Dish
network subscriber myself with a similar issue.

My setup is:

OTA antenna, ~ 50 feet of RG6, one splitter plugged into 
a) Dish VIP 622,
b) AverMedia A180 HD tuner card in a HTPC

I've had the HTPC recording OTA broadcasts for ~6 months w/o any problems.

On Sunday night, while my HTPC was recording Sunday night football, the
622 had all kinds of problems tuning in channels that I've never had a problem
with before on the HTPC. The signal strength meter was showing signals
in the 60-70 percent range for some channels, and then it would bounce
all the way down to 0 which would of course cause the loss of picture and
a nasty dialog box saying the channel lock had been lost (or something like that).

What I find interesting is while the 622 was having brain problems, my HTPC
was recording OTA programming w/o a hitch. I need to do more testing making
sure both OTA devices are tuned into the same channel, but I find it rather 
peculiar that I'm all of a sudden having problems with OTA HD programing that
I've been getting for 6 months.

Do you think my 622 is defective, or could this be a software bug? :nono2: 

Chad


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

After several months of testing with four 622s, two different antenna setups, and an HDTV PCI tuner card on my PC, I have concluded: 

The sensitivity of the 622 OTA tuner varies substantially from 622 to 622. And the 622 OTA tuner is not a very sensitive tuner - as OTA tuners go. 

Obviously the 622 is basically a satellite receiver. The OTA tuner to me seems like an afterthought that is not a very good one in comparison to my simple $70 HDTV PCI tuner card in my PC, operating from the same antenna. And as some have noted, an expensive TV probably has a better (more sensitive) OTA tuner. My Samsung DLP has no HD tuner. 

I live about 60-62 miles from two HDTV stations here in the country. They are not far apart, so aiming a high-gain antenna is not much of a problem in that the beamwidth will pretty well cover both distant towers. They are in a different DMA from my HD LIL DMA, and get different physical network feeds. So, I am able to compare a lot of things. One OTA station carries NBC - and CW on a sub-channel. The other station is CBS, UPN? (in transition), and FOX. All are digital and HDTV. 

Until recently, I had a very old VHF/UHF TV antenna at 50 feet, with no mast preamp - and several missing elements. There was a 12 db Rad Shack distribution amp in the closet, feeding the coax outlets in four rooms. With previous 622s, I got signals from the two OTA towers of 86 and about 80. Most of the time, I could get a good lock on both stations. The 86 one was always rock solid. 

Then, I got a replacement 622 (for one which had a variety of problems). When I hooked it up to the old antenna, I got lower signals than with the previous one, and the weaker station would constantly drop out and come back in (Error 739 Signal Lost). Yet both stations were rock solid on my PC HDTV card, as they had been with the older 622 online, of course. The PC HDTV tuner was my constant reference.

So, I put up a new 14.2db UHF yagi with a corner reflector, a 29db mast preamp, new 50 feet of coax and fired her up. No need for a distribution amp, because: On the new 622, I now get 95 signal on the one distant tower and about 90 on the other one. About what I expected with a decent antenna/amp setup. 

But..... Even at a sig of 90, the one station and sub-channel will not ever lock in for more than a few seconds. The picture breaks up all the time and every minute or so up pops the Error 739 screen (Signal Lost). In a few seconds the picture comes back and the one-minute or so cycle starts over again. 

Remember, with the older 622 and broken up antenna, I used to get this signal with a good lock at signal of about 80. Now, with a "hot" antenna and preamp, the signal will not lock up on the 90 signal. You do the math about the 622 tuner. 

On the tower from which I get 95 signal, the picture is perfect, actually more stable than the same Dallas HD LIL channels. This is the OTA with CBS, UPN, and FOX. 

While the picture on the 622 with a signal of 90 is breaking up all the time, I can record the same show on my PC card in HDTV and it is perfect! Now, I also have an S-meter onscreen for the PC card. It shows a 100 percent signal from both of my OTA towers. 

I can record a total of 5 channels and sub-channels on the PC, all with a perfect picture from the same OTA antenna setup I use on the 622. Actually, the PC coax wall outlet is about 30 feet farther from the incoming coax than the coax wall outlet for the 622. Minor loss, but still counts. 

I know from decades of fiddling with HF, VHF, UHF and years of DBS dish pointing and installing different receivers, that S-meters are not accurate. Case in point; going from a signal on one 622 of 80 to a signal of 90 on the new one and losing the signal with 90 on the meter! But, on the same set, an S-meter is useful to compare relative strengths from different towers. I set the direction - while watching signal strengths - and lock the antenna in place. No rotor. 

If you live close to a tower, you may overload the OTA tuner on the 622, as has been noted. But, I doubt that at 60+ miles and with signals of 90 and 95, my OTA tuner is overloaded. My PC HDTV programs show no sign of overload, even though the meter says 100% signal. 

If you own two 622s, it would be interesting to know what kind of signals you get on the same OTA station on the same antenna. Also, I know there are people on the forum who have both D* and E* HD DVRs. I wonder what kind of OTA signal comparisons you will get when the OTA tuners are turned on with the new D* HD DVR? I may have to add another dish to my antenna farm and another brand of HD DVR to my mess, which includes WildBlue and 3 ham antennas.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Hmm I have two.. Have to check them out one night when I get a chance. Also remember that the strength indicator is a signal to error ratio and not just signal strength. Really cannot compare the signals between other devices. Even need to be careful when comparing between different Dish Receivers. Example: 921 range is 0-125 while the 622 is 0-100. 

All I know from my experience. My 622s have performed better than my 811 and 921 in the OTA department. Definitely a YMMV scenario.

As for your 90 signal. Boy I am surprised you are getting break up with a 90. When I have channels in the 90s they are rock solid. Usually has to get to around 60 or 70 before I start to notice break up... 

Hmm.. It is late and I am tired.. Going to have to return to this one..... Interesting post..


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> ...
> 
> As for your 90 signal. Boy I am surprised you are getting break up with a 90. When I have channels in the 90s they are rock solid. Usually has to get to around 60 or 70 before I start to notice break up...
> 
> ...


This is the exact same thing that is happening here on our local NBC (KOB) station. The signal strength is close to 90 but it keeps breaking up and the "Lost Signal Acquisition" error comes up. I'm thinking that it's the station itself and not the 622.


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## RWATTS (Sep 27, 2006)

Lujan,

I e-mailed KOB last week and they confirmed the problem is on their end. They claim to be working on it. Situations like this make me glad I spent the $5.00 for Dish Locals so I can still watch NBC.


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## kdwebsol (Jan 29, 2006)

I am having the same problem with my OTA. I am using an indoor antenna and it has been working fine for months. I am in the Providence area and less then 5 miles away. My signal strength is around 75-85 on all channels, but I keep losing single. My strength will be at 80 and then drop to 0. Then stay on for awhile at around 80 then drop to zero.

I have tried moving the gain down the gain on the antenna a little at a time and still have the same problem. If I remove the antenna from my 622 and use it on my TV everything works fine. The signal strength is a little lower on my tv but does not drop down to zero.

I would like to trying an attenuator like suggested in an earlier post.. Where can I get one? I am assuming this is a filter to help over load, are there different types. I did a search and found a lot of different ones. Also do the high end antennas have an attenuator built in. I was looking at the Sharpshooter SS-3000, is the one a little overkill for being so close.

Thanks,
Ken


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

RWATTS said:


> Lujan,
> 
> I e-mailed KOB last week and they confirmed the problem is on their end. They claim to be working on it. Situations like this make me glad I spent the $5.00 for Dish Locals so I can still watch NBC.


Me too...


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## vfrn1 (Sep 17, 2006)

It sure sounds like a common problem w/ the VIP 622 and its OTA tuner... :bonk1:

Last night I had both my 622 and HTPC (specs above) tuned into "The Unit" in
HD on CBS. The HTPC was perfect, I mean flawless. The 622 didn't drop the
picture out on me, but there were moments of pixelization and some sound
drop outs throughout the program.

Based upon what everyone is saying here, it sounds like my options are limited.  

I suppose I could call my installer and see what they have to suggest.

Chad


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> Hmm I have two.. Have to check them out one night when I get a chance. Also remember that the strength indicator is a signal to error ratio and not just signal strength. Really cannot compare the signals between other devices. Even need to be careful when comparing between different Dish Receivers. Example: 921 range is 0-125 while the 622 is 0-100.
> 
> All I know from my experience. My 622s have performed better than my 811 and 921 in the OTA department. Definitely a YMMV scenario.
> 
> As for your 90 signal. Boy I am surprised you are getting break up with a 90. When I have channels in the 90s they are rock solid. Usually has to get to around 60 or 70 before I start to notice break up...


Ron: I was careful to point out that signal meter is only a guide for relative signal strengths on the SAME receiver. And that I got solid pics with old beat up antenna and previous 622 when sigs were around 80. ( I think my first three 622s got better OTA signals that I had on the 811, which is consistent with your experience.)

I sent a long summary to some contacts in tech and receiver groups at Dish, who know my situation well, by now. I sent them a PDF brochure of my PC PCI HDTV tuner card which has sensitivity and noise specs. And pointed out that both my OTA stations are rock solid on the the PCI card. I usually hear right back. No news is good news. I have them scratching their heads and measuring tuner sensitivity on several production runs - I am sure.

Show on 622 will constantly break up at 90 sig reading (other tower is 95 sig). But, the PCI card pulls in both towers and all sub-channels with perfect picture. Actually looks better than Dish HD LIL most of the time. This from two small-time operations in S. Okla, just across the border from me. Very interesting!

For fun, I will buy some attenuators and keep stacking them to see how low a signal I can get on the strong station (95-96) until it drops out. Also, have a call into Engr. at "weak" station (which came in fine on previous 622s and 811) to see if he has any thoughts - or is messing with power output, antenna phasing, etc.


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

Ron Barry, et al. 

I chatted with my ham-friend engineer at HDTV station across Okla. border that breaks up with signal on the 622 of 90, while nearby tower from the other station gives me 95 sig and solid pic all the time. 

He says they are both running nearly exactly the same power, same antenna height, and there is no reason for my OTA sig on 622 to break up on his station with a 90 signal on my meter. 

He suggested that I delete all OTA stations from the 622 and rescan, but that his vote was for a goofy tuner in the 622. When I rescanned, I got both Okla. stations with same 90 and 95 sigs. But DX was in and I also scanned KOKH- FOX25 in Okla. City (163 miles from me). Sig was only 60-63 on KOKH, but once in a while the picture will lock in for a minute or so. You think I was confused before? I will try to get some attenuators and pull the OTA sigs down from 90 and 95 to see what happens. There are not a lot of electronic stores here, will probably have to buy over Internet. I don't think there is an adjustment on the mast preamp, but I don't climb anymore - if there was one.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I'm suspicious that most of the ViP622 receivers aren't very good at multipath.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

harsh said:


> I'm suspicious that most of the ViP622 receivers aren't very good at multipath.


Actually they are better then average.


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

harsh said:


> I'm suspicious that most of the ViP622 receivers aren't very good at multipath.


I wonder how much "multipath" there could be when I live in a rural area and the TV tower with th 90 sig that drops out on the 622 is in a rural area in Okla? Will have friend with Topo maps check the path between the good and bad towers to my location, just to see if there are any hills or 500 ft. transmitting antennas in the way. If this is multipath, it is not the typical multipath you see in big cities, with signals bouncing off many structures. Do cow pies cause multipath?

You would think that if I had any multipath, it would affect the HDTV PC card in my computer, too. Last night, I recorded Leno in HDTV on my PC - from the same outside antenna as 622 is hooked to. The program on the PC was perfect. The same OTA signal on the ViP622 would not lock in for more than a few seconds at a time, even with 90 on the meter. PC tuner meter shows 100% signal.

In the meantime, just for fun, I am going to buy a Samsung DTB-H260F OTA receiver to hook into my Samsung DLP, which does not have a tuner built in. DTB-H260F is said to be particularly good at handling multipath, plus having a very sensitive tuner. Then, I will have 622 OTA, OTA tuner for Samsung DLP set, and my HDTV PCI OTA card to do comparisons. After that, it would be back up the tower and play "aiming" again. I can live without the NBC OTA on the 622 (the 90 sig), since I have NBC on Dallas HD LIL, and on the PC card tuner from OTA in Okla., but the problem fascinates me. Especially since I did not have the problem until I got the replacement 622!

The problem also fascinates the Engr. at my OTA TV station and some high-level techs at Dish. My main Dish contact is off for a few days, but sd he would get back to me on this soon.

Okla city Ch25FOX has not come back in since the afternoon when it happed to skip in during an OTA scan on the 622. Again, it is about 163 miles from me.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

ClarkBar said:


> ... Do cow pies cause multipath?
> ...


:lol:


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## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

Well I was told to quit complaning about the 622 OTA tuner , but I had the 7th Dish Network Tech ( district supevisor) here to-day. After some checking and about 4 calls to Dish Network. He finally admitted that they have a problem with the 622 OTA tuner. I wont go into detail (refer to past post )

Fred


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## Gramps (Apr 27, 2006)

fmcomputer said:


> So basically you're saying that the Vip622 OTA tuner is not as good as the OTA tuner on my TV.
> I will try your suggestion.
> 
> Fred


Unfortunaltely, that is the bottom line. I had a 942 and after a sw update, I was no longer able to receive one of the local affiliates (yellow screen -signal loss) that was broadcasting in HD, yet the station came in perfectly on the tuner in my HD TV. As the weeks went by it became apparent that no one in the area could get that station with any model Dish receiver that had an ATSC tuner, but we could all get it with other brand tuners. The CE at the station couldn't find anything wrong and we all assumed this was a Dish problem, but the helpdesk and the local installers were no help since receiver swaps obviously were no help. After a few months, the station had a transmitter failure and when they came back up, the problem was gone. I now have a 622 and have been much happier with it than the 942, but recently a different station doesn't come in on the 622... HD is still very much in its infancy. In time this will have to get better. In the meantime, I wish Dish would try a little harder to improve their OTA tuners. However, since the plan is to provide HD locals to all markets someday, I really doubt they will work too hard on the OTA tuner issues.

BTW, we had tried attenuaters, amplifiers, all to no avail. The CE at the station determined there was something being dropped in the data stream that Dish tuners could not compensate for. The bottom line was that the symptoms were the same whether someone lived in the shadow of the tower or 20 miles away.


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

Gramps said:


> In the meantime, I wish Dish would try a little harder to improve their OTA tuners. However, since the plan is to provide HD locals to all markets someday, I really doubt they will work too hard on the OTA tuner issues.


I had the same thought. If folks in the sticks buy Satellite TV, they probably don't have many (or any) OTA stations in the area. If city folks buy Satellite TV, they probably are in range of strong OTA sigs. So, why spend the money to put a "hot" OTA tuner in a Dish HD receiver?

I said to my Dish contacts that I noticed that my 622 was Made in Mexico. My HDTV tuner card, which picks up rural OTA perfectly, is made in Israel. So, call the Israelis and make a deal about getting their tuners at a good price - to put in the 622. Mostly joking, but not completely. That is why I sent Dish the spec sheet on the Israeli Cat's Eye 150 tuner that I have in my PC (vboxcomm.com).


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## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

Gramps said:


> Unfortunaltely, that is the bottom line. I had a 942 and after a sw update, I was no longer able to receive one of the local affiliates (yellow screen -signal loss) that was broadcasting in HD, yet the station came in perfectly on the tuner in my HD TV. As the weeks went by it became apparent that no one in the area could get that station with any model Dish receiver that had an ATSC tuner, but we could all get it with other brand tuners. The CE at the station couldn't find anything wrong and we all assumed this was a Dish problem, but the helpdesk and the local installers were no help since receiver swaps obviously were no help. After a few months, the station had a transmitter failure and when they came back up, the problem was gone. I now have a 622 and have been much happier with it than the 942, but recently a different station doesn't come in on the 622... HD is still very much in its infancy. In time this will have to get better. In the meantime, I wish Dish would try a little harder to improve their OTA tuners. However, since the plan is to provide HD locals to all markets someday, I really doubt they will work too hard on the OTA tuner issues.
> 
> BTW, we had tried attenuaters, amplifiers, all to no avail. The CE at the station determined there was something being dropped in the data stream that Dish tuners could not compensate for. The bottom line was that the symptoms were the same whether someone lived in the shadow of the tower or 20 miles away.


Well if they would just have admitted they had a problem with the OTA I would not have wasted their time and mine, and about $400.00 in components trying to get the thing to work. If it works fine, if it does'nt don't waste your time....

Fred....


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## Traveler62 (Nov 20, 2006)

I am seeing a similar problem that some others have reported. My OTA PBS channels 19-1, 19-2, 19-3, & 19-4 feeds will show 94%, then drop off and pixellate (sp). It has been doing this about two weeks. I can recieve the channels fine with the TV Tuner (Toshiba 62HM195). Is it verified that it is coming from the channels and is there anyone in the KC area that is experiencing the same problem? Thanks


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

A good place for these type of questions relating to OTA is in the HD local area on AVSForum. This way you can get cross receiver opinions. In the past, there have been PSIP issues where it has effected the 622. It was assumed to be the 622 until another receivers exhibited the same behavior with the same channel. And also there were receivers that showed no effect to the issue. So whenever there is a OTA PQ issues, I use this source and the sources at AVSForum to see if I can track it down to stream issue or 622 issue.


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