# US DBS and Canada (observation)



## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I haven't been to Canada in almost two years to the date, but I went today and wow the number of DirecTV dishes has multiplied. We went up into Niagara Falls and Ft. Erie, on the way there I stopped counting after seeing 50 DirecTV dishes on houses, quite a few were the Phase3's. That's not including commercial establishments, almost every strip club and bingo hall we passed also had a D* dish. Not many Dish Networks subs up there only saw three houses with Dish500s. I didn't see any of the 20" new Bell dishes, but it seemed like in terms of Canadian providers more houses had Star Choice then BEV, but overall in the Niagara region DirecTV is the DBS provider of choice, I guess.

I noticed that less then two miles into Canada is the first RadioShack in a tiny strip plaza, I think that's where my future BEV system will come from.  I wasn't able to find the Future Shop.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I guess It might be pretty easy to crack down on sat piracy this way. Just look and count.


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## PeterB (Jul 25, 2002)

Cyclone said:


> I guess It might be pretty easy to crack down on sat piracy this way. Just look and count.


Not really. It isnt illegal to have a dish mounted to your house.

But the real matter is, Bevu did a "trade in your grey market system" promotion, and to save cost the old DTV dishes were just repointed.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

That doesn't explain the many Phase3 dishes I saw, but you're having a dish mounted isn't a crime and I was assuming most people with D* dishes are getting DirecTV. But someone could just as easily get a Bell dish and point it to 101, since 91 and 101 are close enough to be in the same general direction and no one would be the wieser.


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## raj2001 (Nov 2, 2002)

PeterB said:


> Not really. It isnt illegal to have a dish mounted to your house.
> 
> But the real matter is, Bevu did a "trade in your grey market system" promotion, and to save cost the old DTV dishes were just repointed.


Hey dude, I have a bridge south of Manhattan I'd like to sell you.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2003)

Probably a lot of those DTV dishes you saw were for Grey Market Subscriptions. Since the border is so close they could just go across the border and pay their bill from a P.O. Box with an address. There are also tons of DTV Dishes in the Toronto area as well, and I bet most are black market but I cant be totally sure.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2003)

I just finished working with a group that has gone door to door in parts of Ontario investigating owners of DirecTV and Echostar dishes plus Expressvu dishes pointed at Echostar dishes.

We have found that 97% of DirecTV is hacked; 100% of Echostar plus we estimate 500,000 hacked Expressvu systems in Canada.

Distribution of DirecTV in Ontario is controlled by organized crime. We have also concluded that the present encryption system utilized by Echostar/Expressvu cannot be curtailed by a card replacement. Indeed, in it's present form, a card is not required to compromise Echostar equipment.

It is our estimation that Bell Canada will discontinue Expressvu service in the next 3 to 5 years if this problem has not been addressed. Expressvu has been informed by some Canadian programmers that contracts will not be renewed if remedial actions are not attempted. It is doubtful that if CRTC approval is granted for HBO, Showtime, and Starz in Canada; that these services would offer their programming to Expressvu. Naturally, this would spell the end of Expressvu in light of Star Choice and cable competition.

Bell Canada has joined with Qwest and Motorola to look at the feasibility of a "1" wire system for telephone, data, video.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

And I thought DirecTv NDS were the ones with security problems without Dish/ExpressVu Nagarvision have a problem. 

So are you trying to say that they have figured a way around the card entirely where they cannot hit the receiver either or what they have in the receiver to replace the card to where they would have to replace all receivers to rid of the piracy?

DirecTv was swapping out cards and in the process that card got hacked so they stopped and switched to another card. I wonder if the same would happen with Dish. I thought Dish had a better encryption to fight hackers than what DirecTv had.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Hacking is something I really wish they could get a handle on and fix. Even if they have to replace all the boxes in circulation. They could do it in stages. They could let AT50 and locals work with the old boxes, but if you want premium movie channels and bigger packages they would upgrade the active boxes on your account. They could start out with AEP people, then work down the line. After a few years churn will also replace a lot of boxes.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I was thinking. You know how when the MSO changes the signal, it takes the pirates a day or two to get a fix on the market. Why not just change the signal every day or two. This would annoy the hell out of all the hackers having to upgrade their "customers" a couple of times a week. Also the customers wouldn't like the "now it works, now it doesn't" routine.

I'm sure there's a reason why this wouldn't work, but I'd like to hear it.


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## billpa (Jul 11, 2003)

"We have found that 97% of DirecTV is hacked; 100% of Echostar plus we estimate 500,000 hacked Expressvu systems in Canada."

Let me understand this: Of the Echostar systems in Canada- There are ZERO grey marketers?


"It is our estimation that Bell Canada will discontinue Expressvu service in the next 3 to 5 years if this problem has not been addressed. "

You mean they just launched a satellite for just a few years? (Nimiq at 82) Big waste of money, don't you think?....

"Naturally, this would spell the end of Expressvu in light of Star Choice and cable competition."

Doesn't EVU have about double the number of subs of *choice? In a country of 30 million, programmers are going to go dark for over a million plus subs?


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2003)

billpa said:


> "It is our estimation that Bell Canada will discontinue Expressvu service in the next 3 to 5 years if this problem has not been addressed. "
> 
> You mean they just launched a satellite for just a few years? (Nimiq at 82) Big waste of money, don't you think?....


Expressvu parent, BCE, is in the hole to the tune of about $1.5b Canadian for Expressvu right. They have made decisions to walk from much bigger operations if there is no hope of recovery of investmest. Last years $10b writedown on Teleglobe is an example. The fact that they are working with Motorola to look at a land line based solutions is an indication that they have some serious concerns with DBS.

Nimiq satellites, along with the Anik C/Ku satellites are owned by another BCE subsiduary Telesat. This profitable company, operates satellites for other companies such as XM, Hellas and others; so selling and/or operating Nimiq satellites for someone else is certainly an option



> "Naturally, this would spell the end of Expressvu in light of Star Choice and cable competition."
> 
> Doesn't EVU have about double the number of subs of *choice? In a country of 30 million, programmers are going to go dark for over a million plus subs?


BCE claims that Expressvu has 1.3m customers. But since Expressvu numbers are included as part of BCE subsiduary, Bell Canada (phone company); nobody, not even shareholders know how many are actually paying, or how many are paying minimum charge and receving all channels.

Canada's system of ownership is like a minature version of the oil industries "Five Sisters". Much too complicated to summarize in a paragraph or two. But usually thay work together for mutual benefit.

The present hacking problems in Canada have led to a split. Bell Canada blaming American DBS dish owners, whether grey or black market - and using their political powers to impose their will. Whereas, others led by Jim Shaw (Shaw Cable, StarChoice, Cancom, Corus Entertainment) focussing on signal theft of Directv, E*/Expressvu, and analog cable boxes.

His viewpoint is that he does't care if consumer is grey/gray customer - just as long as their paying service provider whereever the provider is located. As a result, you see the #1 & 2 providers (Rogers/Shaw) and #4 & 5 providers(Videotron/Cogeco) on 1 side and the #3 provider (Expressvu) on opposite of the more American services in Canada issue.

But Expressvu usually wins as their parent, BCE, has the federal Liberal government sewn up and in their back pocket


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## jrbdmb (Sep 5, 2002)

Canadian Cable Dude said:


> I just finished working with a group that has gone door to door in parts of Ontario investigating owners of DirecTV and Echostar dishes plus Expressvu dishes pointed at Echostar dishes.
> 
> We have found that 97% of DirecTV is hacked; 100% of Echostar plus we estimate 500,000 hacked Expressvu systems in Canada.


I find it interesting that all of these Canadian homes with hacked DirecTV and Dish systems willingly opened their doors to let you examine their hacked systems. Or did you have a search warrant?

BTW, have you provided the names / addresses to D* and E* yet? I'm sure they would be interested in this info.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

The only way I see around this piracy mess is to require a phone call at regular intervals like once a month... Yes I know a few are in RVs and many have cell phones and no land based phone. But if piracy is that bad, they should give up those customers to fix the over all problem.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

And I bet at least a third if not half the customers would not go for having a phone line connected for several reasons. 

One, they are afraid someone is spying on them in which I had mentioned to me several times and told to leave it disconnected. 

Two, they are afraid their phone bill will get ran up. 

Three, they do not have a local phone jack to run it to. 

Four, they do not have a landline phone line but a cell phone instead. 

Five, they didnt need it before, why need it now, is going to be some of the responses. 

Six, cable/competitor does not require it, I will just switch to them (since they have a good deal out anyways) and its just another reason to switch.

Seven, some do have a second home that they go to on the weekends like a cabin in the woods, or some go camping. 

Eight, some do not want their bill ran up with additional programming purchases and ppv's as they see that this is a lot less likely to happen without the phone line plugged in.

Nine, the customers would call retailers like mad along with Dish Network making them come out to put it in since they think it would be their responsibility since they want it connected and was not required at time of installation. Think of all those installs before anything was said about must having them connected.

And I wonder how many have the phone lines are connected right now? I bet not half, maybe not even a third of them.

The only true way to fight this for a while is to do a receiver swap in which could be done in the future to help them with encryption and future technology along with the digital tv requirement.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Ten, don't want to add to the additioanl rats nest of wires behind the entertainment center. The phone jack is on the opposite side of my room and I don't want to run a phone line, get a phone line splitter or the wireless jacks . I mainly fall under five, I never had a phone line plugged in, in nearly 5 years I have no intention of doing so unless required to inorder to keep the service.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

If they were to drop the $5/extra reciever on accounts if you get your recievers on the phone, I bet suddenly a huge number that say a phone line is impossible suddenly make the impossible possible.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2003)

jrbdmb said:


> I find it interesting that all of these Canadian homes with hacked DirecTV and Dish systems willingly opened their doors to let you examine their hacked systems. Or did you have a search warrant?
> 
> BTW, have you provided the names / addresses to D* and E* yet? I'm sure they would be interested in this info.


It is done in such a way that the homeowner does not realize we are investigating tv service provider.

Cablecheaters addresses are reported to cable company for followup action.

Suspected Expressvu hackers are not reported to Expressvu as they have shown zero interest in addressing this problem. For example they continue to allow compromised Expressvu equipment on EBay, even when seller has a Bell Canada email address. Much of Expressvu hacking info is posted on Bell Canada servers.

Addresses/names of suspected manufacturers of DirecTV/E* equipment are forwarded to Canadian police agencies.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Mike123abc, perhaps that is the solution, to charge those that do not hook up the phone line and those that do get the reward of not being charged the additional outlet fee of $4.99. Their dual tuner receivers is one solution they are trying.


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## DCXFORDGM (Jul 15, 2003)

I am from toronto, I have been watching black market directv since summer of 1995. I have seen every device to take signal, I am and have been using a old 386 with floppy to take 
signal. I decided two years ago to stop programing my card/boards etc. I remember the days
when directv would hit us every year, then it went to every week. The systems that the hackers have in place are very stable, usually coming up with a patch or full software update 
wile ecm is in the stream. The reason I started with directv is not because I can surf 900
channels for free but in the begining it was and is for me the programing or the lack of 
american programing with our canadian dbs industry. I also have a dish 500 with 6000 using a amtel card, have had avr's rom 3 and a free 1 year software from dish itself. As far as vu, I 
have a 6000 with twin lnb and they are not getting out of the dbs industry they are expanding with nimiq 2 and 13 hdtv channels to date more than our friends to the south. I just want to add you are correct when you say there are alot of american dishs here and its not stopping it is also expanding faster then our own dbs industry. I could care less if you came to my door, I'd offer you a beer over dbs talk!!, you see where in a different country with these signals passing over us and people are not afraid but if I lived in america I would not aquire signal from american dbs but maybe canadian dbs vu.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

boy, that takes some stones to admit on a public site. My sincere hope is that directv kicks you in them for stealing. :flaiming


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## DCXFORDGM (Jul 15, 2003)

Hey Derryberry, who cares if it is on a public site, word of mouth, newspaper or any other
forms of communcation!

The fact is there are not 700,000 canadians aquiring american dbs but more closer to a 
million. Another fact is it started inside directv/nds, when you are in markham/richmondhill
outside of toronto one day, look around 8 out of 10 houses have directv or dish, you will 
also have to take dishes down from schools/police and other local business, oh and 
re-programing cards from inside the general motors plant in oshawa. These are just a few 
examples. The other think you should consider before you talk, we are not americans, we 
are not the 51st state, we do not follow your laws. Im not trying to be rude to you but
we are another country in the world that has our own rules. Like i said in my other post
, I don't aquire signal just becausee its free because its not, it does cost money to keep it 
up, about 250.00-300.00 a year, if I could I would purchase programing from directv, in fact
i was a sub for awhile many years ago for about 6 months threw a broker and directv kicked
me off. This is out in the open in canada, directv and dish ads are in papers, ads on side 
of roads, local electronics stores sell them, this has been going on in the open/mainstream 
for over 10 years. I am sending you this reply from my srs direcway/lincsat dish, even when 
i called direcway and told them I want to purchase one after seeing on channel 227, they 
were happy to refer me to the canadian carrier of direcway lincsat. If i had more time to 
explain why directv/GM and now murdoch allow there signal to be aquired to get more subs
I would explain it to you. The last final item I will bring to your attention is that this signal is
in our airspace which is considered canada, now directv and dish are trying to correct by using
spotbeams and in future this may stop signal theft. If you drive into michagan you will notice
alot of our expressvu dishes and I mean alot! With the currect laws on both sides of the 
border this will always occur, this has to be fixed at the law level by both governments.

DCXFORDGM


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

It is an interesting arguement, to say the least but also one we frown upon here at DBSTalk. 

I know its hard (impossible) to legally subscribe to services when you are trying to get a service from other countries, however with that said we do not condone the hacking necessary to get these signals.

So for that reason I am going to close this thread.


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