# Comparing the HR10-250, HR20-100/700, HR21-700 and ViP622/722



## tfederov

I haven't found an all-encompassing doc trying to compare DVRs so I thought I'd take a shot. If you guys have stuff that needs adding or correcting, by all means I'm all ears. I just thought this would be helpful for those new to the satellite HD DVR world.

*Added 11/12 (v16):* Tons of updates, too many to mention. Special thanks to those that helped with this update!


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## Michael D'Angelo

Nice work Tony.

The -700 does not have a digital coaxial.


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## Michael D'Angelo

You should also add in stuff about the remote. Like IR and RF. RF antenna internal for -700 and external for -100.


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## Michael D'Angelo

You may also want to add in that you do not need a phone line for software updates on the HR20's. I have been seeing that asked a lot lately.


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## vegasflyby

Nice work. How about digital coax. I think the hr20-100 is the only one that has it.


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## tfederov

Fixed the coax on the -700. Copy and paste can be mean at times.


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## tfederov

BMoreRavens said:


> You should also add in stuff about the remote. Like IR and RF. RF antenna internal for -700 and external for -100.


I can make that fix. I'll have to do it later though, going out for dinner tonight.


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## Michael D'Angelo

tfederov said:


> I can make that fix. I'll have to do it later though, going out for dinner tonight.


No problem. I just want to say thanks for doing this for us.


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## Milominderbinder2

Great work!

How about these...

There should be a line for maximum HD Channels: 
HR10 - 10
HR20 - 150* year-end 2008

The most important reason for buying a receiver is not the receiver, it is the content.

The HR10 has a working Autorecord. It can Autorecord all of the Cubs games for instance. The HR20 cannot. The reason is that the HR10 has a working CIR and the HR20 does not.

A second item is CIR by itself.

How fast is the maximum Fast Forward Speed? The HR20 is 90x. That is huge. Is the HR10 only 40x?

Does the HR10 have the Jump to tick feature? The HR20's Jump is like 300x.

Maybe mention CLOSED CAPTIONING, DOLBY® SOUND Dolby 5.1 Surround Sound, MINI GUIDE

Can the HR10 do a search for a keyword that had has a special character?
The HR20 can search for a keyword of “CSI NY”. Can the HR10?

WHAT'S HOT - Is real-time, interactive ratings. Choose from the hottest 50 shows at this instant! Can the HR10 do that?

Soft Padding - Is automatic in the HR20. If you extend a first show a few minutes longer and start the next show a few minutes early - on two channels. Does the HR10 have soft padding?

Again,


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## Milominderbinder2

How about highlighting the differences?

A sample is attached.

- Craig

_edit: attachment removed. New version posted later._


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## Milominderbinder2

Again, love the fact that you are doing this.

I just don't know enough about the HR10. These are missing features on the HR20. Does the HR10 have these features?

The HR20 cannot do a Title Search Autorecord as noted in the manual on pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for 0x115, 0x119, & 0x11b. Can the HR10 do a Title Search Autorecord?

Can the HR10 edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes). The HR20 is supposed to per page p. 28 but does not.

Does the HR10 have OTA Scan? The HR20 is supposed to: "Select the Scan for Channels button to have the receiver scan local off-air frequencies" p. 78

Does the HR10 have Screen Centering? The HR20 is supposed to per page 28: Enable Setup>Display>Screen Centering.

Will the HR10 be able to show DIRECTV On Demand?

The HR20 cannot show "...home videos on their TVs directly from Intel® Viiv™ [PCs]" Can the HR10? Is it even promised?

For eSATA Cord you add "eSATA (Ext. Hard Drive)" so it is clear what that means?

Remote programmability is promised for the HR20. Can the HR10 do it? Is it promised?

MRV Multi room Viewing is promised for the HR20. Can the HR10 do it? Is it promised?

- Craig


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## tfederov

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Again, love the fact that you are doing this.
> 
> I just don't know enough about the HR10. These are missing features on the HR20. Does the HR10 have these features?
> 
> The HR20 cannot do a Title Search Autorecord as noted in the manual on pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for 0x115, 0x119, & 0x11b. Can the HR10 do a Title Search Autorecord?
> 
> Can the HR10 edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes). The HR20 is supposed to per page p. 28 but does not.
> 
> Does the HR10 have OTA Scan? The HR20 is supposed to: "Select the Scan for Channels button to have the receiver scan local off-air frequencies" p. 78
> 
> Does the HR10 have Screen Centering? The HR20 is supposed to per page 28: Enable Setup>Display>Screen Centering.
> 
> Will the HR10 be able to show DIRECTV On Demand?
> 
> The HR20 cannot show "...home videos on their TVs directly from Intel® Viiv™ [PCs]" Can the HR10? Is it even promised?
> 
> For eSATA Cord you add "eSATA (Ext. Hard Drive)" so it is clear what that means?
> 
> Remote programmability is promised for the HR20. Can the HR10 do it? Is it promised?
> 
> MRV Multi room Viewing is promised for the HR20. Can the HR10 do it? Is it promised?
> 
> - Craig


Wow Craig... three posts... I don't know where to start replying!! 

Starting with the first response, I think the fact that MPEG-4 is mentioned as HD content, that should be enough but I see your point so that is a good idea. I'll add that.

I don't know about actual speeds for either platform (40x speed, etc.). If someone has those for the HR-10 I could add that.

CC and Dolby I can also add under the features section. CIR, IIRC didn't work all the time on the HR10-250 either. Can a TiVo person confirm this?

The keyword feature works on the TiVo the same as the HR20(s). What's Hot I thought went under the active features. Is that right? Looking at my doc now I realized active isn't in there. That'll go in too. I don't think soft padding on the front end exists on the TiVo either. I'll have to follow up.

With highlighting the differences, if this were to go to .pdf format, would those show up or darken out the cell?

As far as promised features, until they're actually in existance I'm thinking we hold off. What are your thoughts?

The fact you like this means alot as I'm trying to model this off of all the ones you did. I'm sure we'll be working close on v3 and beyond (starting tomorrow, I have to work early so I'm crashing  ).

Tony


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## cjever19

the -700 does not have a fan on the bottom like the -100 does. My -700 runs about 20 degrees F hotter in the same location as my replaced -100 did.:flaiming


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## tfederov

cjever19 said:


> the -700 does not have a fan on the bottom like the -100 does. My -700 runs about 20 degrees F hotter in the same location as my replaced -100 did.:flaiming


It's actually in an odd spot. Earl has a pic of the guts from his intro thread here: http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/images/Large/11-Inside.jpg

Note it's a pretty big pic.


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## tfederov

v3 has been posted. For the most part I'm avoiding promised features with the exception of the number of national HD channels because that's the biggie between the two flavors. VOD will be added once it's released.

If anyone sees mistakes (I'd love for a HundredNation person to confirm the dimensions) please either post here or PM me and I'll make the changes.

Thanks!


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## Milominderbinder2

Tony,

Again great work.

You and I know the significance of MPEG4 but for a new user the significance is 10 vs 150 HD channels. Thanks for adding that.

As to FFW, I don't really care if it is 3 or 4 speeds, I want to know my fastest FFW speed. I rarely use FFW2.

I think that the TiVo has an internal fix to CIR. It applies the Favorite Channels. Again, I don't care if CIR is ever fixed. I care that Autorecord and Search are so broken on the HR20 and work on the HR10. That to me is the second most important difference between the two boxes.

The TiVo HR10 can do a Title Search Autorecord. The HR20 manual says it can as have past release notes but it cannot.

What's Hot is a type of active feature. It is completely unique from anything else.

A pdf will bring the highlight (cell pattern backgrounds). I can convert for you. Stuart is right that the final draft should be a pdf so anyone can easily see it.

The promised features are important because several are key features in the HR10 today. If the HR10 has critical issues already addressed, it deserves credit:

I think that the HR10 can edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes). 

Were we told that the HR10 has OTA Scan? That is so huge.

Doesn't the HR10 have Screen Centering? 
Will the HR10 be able to show DIRECTV On Demand?

Other TiVos have Remote Programmability or MRV Multi room Viewing. Does the HR10?

We need to hear from some of the HR10 crowd...


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## Michael D'Angelo

tfederov said:


> v3 has been posted. For the most part I'm avoiding promised features with the exception of the number of national HD channels because that's the biggie between the two flavors. VOD will be added once it's released.
> 
> If anyone sees mistakes (I'd love for a HundredNation person to confirm the dimensions) please either post here or PM me and I'll make the changes.
> 
> Thanks!


Looks great Tony. I am still trying to think of some more.


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## tonyd79

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I think that the TiVo has an internal fix to CIR. It applies the Favorite Channels.


Actually, you tell it what channels you receive. There is only one favorites list. It must be a subset of Channels You Receive. You can also use the guide on All Channels. Searches work on Channels You Receive while the guide and channel buttons work on which you have set (All, CYR, Fav).

So, if Tony is going to add anything about all that, he could add that CIR is edittable on HR10 and that HR20 has 2 favorites lists and HR10 has one.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> What's Hot is a type of active feature. It is completely unique from anything else.


Active features should be broken out. There is What's Hot, there is weather/etc, there are interactive sports features and there is Game Lounge.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> Were we told that the HR10 has OTA Scan? That is so huge.


Yes it has autoscan but I don't know what it does with channels it cannot find in the guide data. Haven't encountered that yet.


Milominderbinder2 said:


> Doesn't the HR10 have Screen Centering?


If it does, I can't find it.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> Will the HR10 be able to show DIRECTV On Demand?


No. So far only the HR20 is announced for that.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> Other TiVos have Remote Programmability or MRV Multi room Viewing. Does the HR10?


Not without a hack. Although some hacking additions could be put in the spreadsheet. Such as drive upgrades are hardware upgrades in the HR10 while they are eSata in the HR20.


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## tfederov

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Tony,
> 
> Again great work.
> 
> You and I know the significance of MPEG4 but for a new user the significance is 10 vs 150 HD channels. Thanks for adding that.
> 
> As to FFW, I don't really care if it is 3 or 4 speeds, I want to know my fastest FFW speed. I rarely use FFW2.
> 
> I think that the TiVo has an internal fix to CIR. It applies the Favorite Channels. Again, I don't care if CIR is ever fixed. I care that Autorecord and Search are so broken on the HR20 and work on the HR10. That to me is the second most important difference between the two boxes.
> 
> The TiVo HR10 can do a Title Search Autorecord. The HR20 manual says it can as have past release notes but it cannot.
> 
> What's Hot is a type of active feature. It is completely unique from anything else.
> 
> A pdf will bring the highlight (cell pattern backgrounds). I can convert for you. Stuart is right that the final draft should be a pdf so anyone can easily see it.
> 
> The promised features are important because several are key features in the HR10 today. If the HR10 has critical issues already addressed, it deserves credit:
> 
> I think that the HR10 can edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes).
> 
> Were we told that the HR10 has OTA Scan? That is so huge.
> 
> Doesn't the HR10 have Screen Centering?
> Will the HR10 be able to show DIRECTV On Demand?
> 
> Other TiVos have Remote Programmability or MRV Multi room Viewing. Does the HR10?
> 
> We need to hear from some of the HR10 crowd...


You're gonna make me have to reactivate an HR10..  

I'm confused on the edit "all the programs". Do you mean such as keep until, repeats or first runs, keep 5, 10, all?
HR10 does have OTA scan. That I know for sure. I can't remember the CIR for it though because I've had it record things in the past but.... oh yeah.. I remember now, my problem was with (sports)blackouts, not CIR.

No screen centering or VOD on the HR10. Again, I wanted to keep VOD out until it showed up because the Army will say we're adding vaporware to make the HR20 look better (I used to be one, I know how they think!  ) but I can put that in there. I'll say Q4 if everyone agrees with that. No MRV without a hack and at that I don't think the HR10 could ever do that. So for v4, the changes will be (after I get back from church):

Highlight the differences
Add OTA scan
Add VOD for Q4

Some other things I'd like to add/confirm:
Series Links=50 for HR20, what is the season pass max?
CIR for the HR10-250
Editing season passes

Those will most likely in v5.

I think that should do it. Just so everyone knows too, I'm looking at possibly growing this out to the entire D* line of receivers (R10, R15, D11, D12) if it would be helpful. My thoughts are that someone looking for info to even get DIRECTV would be able to use this as a reference to compare what they want with each receiver.


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## Milominderbinder2

Tony,

Your HR10 should be able to edit "all the programs" in the Season Pass Manager. That is a big problem in the HR20. It should be noted:

_Edit All Series Links - HR10 Yes - HR20 No_

OTA Scan is a big deal. It would be huge for people like Hasan who after almost a year still can't get their local channels in the HR20 Guide. It needs to be in the list.

_OTA Scan - HR10 Yes - HR20 No_

Channels I Receive is a big deal.

_Search Only Your Channels - HR10 Yes - HR20 No_

VOD is a big deal. It is not vaporware. The coming HD channels are not vaporware. At this point, it does not sound like the HR10 will ever have it.

_Video On Demand (VOD) - HR10 No - HR20 Q4_

I think it would be great to find out the maximum number of HR10 Season Passes

I would love to see you add the Dish 622 HD DVR to the comparison. I am not sure the old SD receivers or non-DVRs are where anyone is heading. We have a whole team of Dish experts over on the other side who would help. That would be huge.

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2

I did not add any more comparison items but refortmated a bit and expanded some wording.

The reformated cells are in red.

For your consideration.

- Craig

_edit: attachment removed. New version posted later._


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## BruceS

Hacks can implement MRV on the HR10, but this can only be done with software versions up to 6.3d.

Version 6.3e, which has just been released, seems to have the MRV portion of the code removed.

I have not tried MRV on either version myself. The above is just from information posted on dvr playground and dvr upgrade\forums.


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## tfederov

I like it and I'll use that one to run with. Making tweaks right now. I'm thinking of changing Dual Live Buffer to just Live Buffer: Tivo - Two, 30 min ea. HR20-100 - One, 90 min. HR20-700 - One, 90 min.

Doesn't Dish have two HD DVRs now (722 I think)?

For phone line... it's not required for the HR20 other than PPV. Would that technically make phone "Yes"? I'll go with the crowd on this one because I can see the reasoning from both sides.


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## tfederov

Version 4 posted for review (in first post).


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## say-what

Y'all have covered just about all that I used and can recall about the HR10. The HR10 doesn't have network support enabled, so no MRV, no music & pics, no remote scheduling - although there is a hack that enables network support that exists in the code but is disabled.


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## tfederov

I'm thinking we keep this to the "stock" information. There's tons of hacks out there for the TiVo and I'm sure we'll someday find hacks (okay, maybe not  ) for the HR20 as well.


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## tonyd79

tfederov said:


> Series Links=50 for HR20, what is the season pass max?


No physical limit. Just performance gets slower with bigger lists.


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## tfederov

tonyd79 said:


> No physical limit. Just performance gets slower with bigger lists.


Thanks, Tony. I put in there (v4) no max.


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## Milominderbinder2

Tony,

This is just great!

I would say that the next step is to rough in the Dish columns and post a thread over there asking for help:

ViP622/ViP722 DVR Support Forum

You can keep one copy of your xls page by just giving them your link like this:

DVRs Side by Side v4.xls

The link will need to be updated every time you replace the xls sheet.

I would also suggest PMing the Dish thread to some of the top Dish guys to make sure they see it.

Allen Noland 
Chris Blount 
harsh 
Jason Nipp 
Mark Lamutt 
Mike Johnson
Rob Glasser 
Ron Barry

As a starting point, Ron Barry has done their Tips & Tricks. Rob Glasser calls himself the ViP622 DVR guy.

I bet in 24 hours, we will all learn a ton about how the HR20 compares to the 622 and 722.

One really big 622 feature is that it can do Picture in Picture showing both tuners on screen at once or separate broadcasts on two different TVs.

Here is a 622 feature summary:

622.pdf

I would be happy to help with any part. Just let me know.

- Craig


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## tfederov

I'm over getting my fantasy league on now but once I'm done I'll brave the enemy territory and see if those guys can help out on this.


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## Milominderbinder2

Here is a rough draft of adding the Dish Products to the spreadsheet.

- Craig
_Edit: Attachment deleted. See more recent draft._


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## tfederov

Olive branch sent. Let's see what happens....


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## jayerndl

I'm not sure that this has been covered but the Dish unit only has 1 OTA tuner. However you can record 3 shows at once (2 - sat and 1 - OTA) vs. 2 for the HR20.

Jay


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## tfederov

I'm not going to change the one in the first thread until we're done making changes. Once we're all happy we can pull all attachments except for the final in the first post.

Edit: Removed v5 from this post.


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## Milominderbinder2

I got in down to one page front and back...

Again, great work. I will delete all of my other versions above.

edit: A little more clean-up now included...

- Craig_
edit: intermediate file attachment deleted_


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## tfederov

Tons of thanks to everyone. v6 has been posted to the first post of this thread.


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## hoopsbwc34

One limitation on the Dish DVRs that has kept me away is one OTA tuner. You can't record two OTA programs at once... however, you can record three shows at once with 2 SAT and one OTA...


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## Coffey77

Under the "Expandable" section, just curious, why is the Dish one highlighted? I would expect, if any, that the HR20 be highlighted because it can be upgraded to a higher level than only 750GB. Aren't people reporting over 1TB?


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## Coffey77

Another thought. Instead of putting the receiver model numbers at the beginning of each new Section - just once at the top and maybe once at the bottom?


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## MikeR

Want to put the CPU and processing chip #'s and specs for each receiver? Some techies like that.


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## Stuart Sweet

Tony and Craig (and all..)

I included a PDF version in the original post. What can I say guys, fantastic work!


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## mtnagel

I never had the HR10, but I did have an SD Directivo. Does it really have one touch recording? With the SD Directivo, if you press the record button, you still had to confirm, right? I actually haven't used a Tivo in quite a few months, so maybe I'm not remembering correctly.


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## tfederov

mtnagel said:


> I never had the HR10, but I did have an SD Directivo. Does it really have one touch recording? With the SD Directivo, if you press the record button, you still had to confirm, right? I actually haven't used a Tivo in quite a few months, so maybe I'm not remembering correctly.


I never count the confirmation. I guess technically it's two touch but that may be a judgement call. What does everyone else think? Does a confirmation count as another "push"?


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## pete4192

Thanks for the info, Tony. This will be nice to give to friends trying to decide between E* and D*.


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## mtnagel

tfederov said:


> I never count the confirmation. I guess technically it's two touch but that may be a judgement call. What does everyone else think? Does a confirmation count as another "push"?


Ah. Why not put what you put for the Dish one's then, "Yes (2nd button confirms)"? Or is that something different?


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## Milominderbinder2

I say that "One Touch Recording" has to be really that: one touch. "One Touch" is the key to that feature. The Dish units do not offer one touch recording.

I do think that we should add an item for One Touch Guide. For Dish that is how it works. For the HR20 that is just an undocumented option.

Is the one touch Guide even an option for the HR10?

One Touch Guide
HR10 - Option?
HR20 - Option
Dish - Standard Feature

- Craig


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## Stuart Sweet

If the HR10 is like any other TiVo, wouldn't it always have one-touch guide?


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## jmschnur

I believe the HR20 series enables digital audio to be carried over HDMI in addition to optical toslink.


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## Milominderbinder2

hoopsbwc34 said:


> One limitation on the Dish DVRs that has kept me away is one OTA tuner. You can't record two OTA programs at once... however, you can record three shows at once with 2 SAT and one OTA...


That should be added...


Coffey77 said:


> Under the "Expandable" section, just curious, why is the Dish one highlighted? I would expect, if any, that the HR20 be highlighted because it can be upgraded to a higher level than only 750GB. Aren't people reporting over 1TB?


Good catch. You are right...


Coffey77 said:


> Another thought. Instead of putting the receiver model numbers at the beginning of each new Section - just once at the top and maybe once at the bottom?


There needs to be a header bar for each section so why not include the models in it?


MikeR said:


> Want to put the CPU and processing chip #'s and specs for each receiver? Some techies like that.


Someone wanting that much detail will be doing their own spreadsheet that would be 20 pages instead of 2. Also, once you open that Pandora's box, what chips don't you list out? I would say to use the Wife Test. Have your wife say if it is the right info for her to decide what to buy. Other than the few active in this forum, I bet most just want to know if it will do what they want.

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2

Tony,

I added in the additional request items from this and the companion Dish threads. I also made a few more tweaks to the formating. It still fits on one page back to back.

What do you think?

- Craig


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## tfederov

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Tony,
> 
> I added in the additional request items from this and the companion Dish threads. I also made a few more tweaks to the formating. It still fits on one page back to back.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> - Craig


I like it. I especially like the disclaimer at the bottom. Is there a chance a mod can take his v7 and put it in my opening post?


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## jheda

great job Tony...ok you can take one game from us next weekend..


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## Stuart Sweet

The latest changes have been incorporated into the original post (again). Happy to help.


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## tfederov

Stuart Sweet said:


> The latest changes have been incorporated into the original post (again). Happy to help.


Please don't kill me... :blush:

Got more input from the DISH folks. 11 is up. There might be a version 12, 13, etc. based on their feedback.


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## Thaedron

Thanks for the offer to help out. I got Craig's message just as we were heading out of town on vacation. 

The spreadsheet looks awesome! 

One of the questions Criag posed to me was regarding the FF speeds. I thought the 3rd speed on the HR10 was 16x, but I can't find anything to confirm. 

I agree with your choice to include "hacks" that are simple key-sequence enabled, but not on more elaborate ones.

One (minor) thing I noted when reading through the spreadsheet is that the channels available is more of a provider distinction than an equipment distinction, though the list is becoming a bit of both. 

The CIR treatment of the HR20 seems a little generous given the enormous PITA bug that exists with the feature. 

Other than those notes, I think everything is great. I'm honored to have been requested to participate. Thanks and keep up the great work, this is a truly amazing community.


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## tfederov

The number for the speed (16x for example) to me is kind of hard to measure so I left them at 3 speeds and 4 speeds (call me lazy  ). With the available channels it sort of does matter, especially with the HR10-250 in the mix since it'll never grow in HD channels. Maybe once we reach steady state with the spreadsheet and the TiVo drops off we can lose that one. For now though, HR10-250 owners looking for info and options if they decide to leave DIRECTV might appreciate this.

CIR may be generous but technically speaking using a favorites is a viable workaround.

Appreciate the input! Hope you had a good vacation!


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## Milominderbinder2

If you want to see the 6 Guide options DISH users have, here they are:










180 Minutes - 9 Channels was our top choice.

The poll is still open if you have not taken it:

Which of the Dish VIP222 Guide Modes Would You Like for Your HR20?

- Craig


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## DrrD

Only 1 sat input on the Vip622/722? But the picture on the review (sorry I can't post the link, it's on the home page) clearly shows 2.


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## Coffey77

DrrD said:


> Only 1 sat input on the Vip622/722? But the picture on the review (sorry I can't post the link, it's on the home page) clearly shows 2.


http://www.dbstalk.com/722/dbstalk_vip722_first_look.pdf
About the 6th page in.


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## Stuart Sweet

v11 PDF is now in the original post.


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## Ken S

Personally, i would separate the 622 and 722 into separate columns. They appear to be different devices with some important different attributes (as opposed to the HR20-100 and HR20-700).


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## Milominderbinder2

Ken S said:


> Personally, i would separate the 622 and 722 into separate columns. They appear to be different devices with some important different attributes (as opposed to the HR20-100 and HR20-700).


I think that a consumer can correctly think of the 622 and 722 as basically the same machine with one having a larger hard drive.

I feel it is more accurate to put the 622 and 722 into the same column. Of the 40 or so comparison factors, just footnote the couple of differences as you have done.

I also agree with combining the HR20-100, HR20-700 and similar permutations into the same column if the differences are still so minor.

By the same token, the HR10 and HR20 are completely different machines with different GUI's, hardware, and software, and should be in their own columns as you have done.

Just my $0.02.

- Craig


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## tfederov

We've had talks in the background about how to sort the frames. This was thought to be the best idea for now.

Craig, with your PMs I plan on working on them this afternoon hopefully since I can only pop in here during my coffee breaks.


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## micky76ag

Very nice product - thanks!

I'm not a "power user" of the HR10-250: I don't have my HR20 yet; and I have never used a Dish system - so I'm not really that qualified to comment.

But here goes anyway:

*Simultaneous recordings line:*

I'm not sure the current wording captures / highlights the differences sufficiently for new users. Dish can only do one OTA, regardless of how many sats it is doing at the time, correct? Recording two local HD channels via OTA would be an important feature to many users.

Suggestion: HR10-250 and HR20: "2 OTA or 2 Sat or 1 OTA and 1 Sat". Dish: 1 OTA or 1 OTA and 1 Sat or 1 OTA and 2 Sat.

*Recording hours section:*

Does Dish really have the same capacity for MPEG-2 and MPEG-4? Seems odd, since MPEG-4 should create smaller files.

*HD channels section:*

HR10-250 and HR20 have the same wording - based on reading the thread, I expected to see a note about the new MPEG-4 channels coming to the HR20. I'd say be consistent here with the VOD section. Either note future capability in both or in neither. Right now it is inconsistent.

*Max season pass / series link section:*

I think the HR10-250 comment is misleading to new users - yes, the more season passes you add, the longer it takes to edit season passes, add and delete scheduled recordings, etc. - things that affect the to-do list and season passes. But, it does not affect channel changes, trick play speeds, remote responsiveness, picture quality, how quickly a recording starts when record is pushed on a live show, etc. Many may read "performance degrades" to mean just that. Suggestion: "No limit, (large numbers of season passes cause longer delays when modifying scheduled recordings)

*Search/autorecord title, person, keyword sections:*

Based on reading these threads, having "yes" under the HR20 in these lines seems disingenuous. I think I understand that it is really a CIR problem and that the HR20 can really autorecord these things - but nobody does it right now, correct? Because is can't always get the correct channel? Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly?

*Single overlap recording section*

What does this mean? They can all record two things at once, so they can all handle a single overlap. Does this line mean something about padding? If so, maybe a whole section on padding would be better (What setting do they allow: start early, start late, end early, end late? By how much? How are conflicts handled?) Or maybe this deals with how conflicts are handled for 3 or more recordings?


----------



## tiger2005

This features list makes me wonder why D* didn't copy the Dish ViP when they were making their own HDDVR.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

micky76ag said:


> *Single overlap recording section*
> 
> What does this mean? They can all record two things at once, so they can all handle a single overlap. Does this line mean something about padding? If so, maybe a whole section on padding would be better (What setting do they allow: start early, start late, end early, end late? By how much? How are conflicts handled?) Or maybe this deals with how conflicts are handled for 3 or more recordings?


Yes, it is with regards to padding:

On a TiVo unit... if you want to overlap record two shows (on the same channel)... you have to use both tuners.

On the HR20... if you want to overlap record two shows, it does it on one... thus no conflicts and you could record a 3rd.


----------



## DrrD

clarification:

Does Dish use 2 satelite dishes? Is that why there are 2 inputs but the spreadsheet lists only 1 sat input? Do you still need 2 cable runs?

I am on the fence about switching from D* to E*. If the Vip622/722 only needs 1 cable run for 2 tuners that will make an E* install alot easier.

Thanks.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

micky76ag,

The comparison specifically states that the Dish product have only 1 OTA tuner.

The DISH products do receive MPEG4.

*Max season pass / series link section:*
I think this would be fine for a footnote...
Suggestion: "No limit, (large numbers of season passes cause longer delays when modifying scheduled recordings)

*Search/Autorecord title, person, keyword sections:*
The HR20 really cannot do a Title Search Autorecord. It is stated in the manual that it can. There was a fix released last year to correct it but as of today that feature is not enabled. It has nothing to do with CIR.

*Single overlap recording section*
This was previously called "soft padding" Say you record one program on a channel and pad the stop time by 5 minutes and record the next program on the same channel. This does not require two tuners, just one. The overlapping time is available in both recordings. Very cool.

- Craig


----------



## Milominderbinder2

DrrD said:


> clarification:
> 
> Does Dish use 2 satellite dishes? Is that why there are 2 inputs but the spreadsheet lists only 1 sat input? Do you still need 2 cable runs?
> 
> I am on the fence about switching from D* to E*. If the Vip622/722 only needs 1 cable run for 2 tuners that will make an E* install a lot easier.
> 
> Thanks.


DISH users need only one satellite dish.

As the comparison notes, DIRECTV does have a Single Wire Multiswitch (SWM)technology that allows you to combine both satellite cables into a single cable. Full roll-out is expected later this year.

Please do not base a decision to leave DIRECT on a need for a single wire.

- Craig


----------



## micky76ag

Thanks, some follow-ons:



Milominderbinder2 said:


> The comparison specifically states that the Dish product have only 1 OTA tuner.
> 
> OK, I guess that's enough -- just seems to me it does not highlight an important limitaion of DISH
> 
> The DISH products do receive MPEG4.
> 
> Yes, I got that -- just seemed funny that it was 30 hours in MPEG-2 and 30 hours in MPEG-4 -- I would have thought it could do more MPEG-4 just like the HR20 can
> 
> *Max season pass / series link section:*
> I think this would be fine for a footnote...
> Suggestion: "No limit, (large numbers of season passes cause longer delays when modifying scheduled recordings)
> 
> *Search/Autorecord title, person, keyword sections:*
> The HR20 really cannot do a Title Search Autorecord. It is stated in the manual that it can. There was a fix released last year to correct it but as of today that feature is not enabled. It has nothing to do with CIR.
> 
> So why does it say "Yes" on the matrix?
> 
> *Single overlap recording section*
> This was previously called "soft padding" Say you record one program on a channel and pad the stop time by 5 minutes and record the next program on the same channel. This does not require two tuners, just one. The overlapping time is available in both recordings. Very cool.
> 
> Thanks, got it (thanks to Earl Bonovich also)


----------



## Ken S

The SWM thing seems a little confusing in the chart.
I thought the SWM was a separate unit much like a regular multiswitch?
Anyway, shouldn't the real item be How many wires does the device need to fully operate?

I'm not trying to start a fight...just curious as to what the difference is. Also, since the SWM is not released shouldn't that be noted. 

On another note Channels I Receive should be "Custom Channel Lists" and how many you can have. I know you have a Favorites category. If none of them can really automatically populate such a list it should be no. I don't know whether the 10-250 or the Dish models can do this.

On the Multiple Guide Styles. How do I change the HR20s guide. It seems it is always a grid. How do you get a list view?

I guess I would put VoD as No for the HR20 as it has not been released with a note.

On the 622/722 thing. If you subscribe to Dish do you get a choice of which model? Does one cost more than the other? Actual List Lease Price would be a good thing to add as well as DVR fee.

Also warranty length may be of interest.

Finally, what's a Dish 625?


----------



## jediphish

For the HR20, you have it listed as having both grid and list style guides as an option. I am aware only of the grid option, with a list of what's on a channel being available by pressing "info." I don't consider having to press "info" for every channel to be the same as the list style guide offered on the HR10-250.

Maybe I missed an update that allows a sticky list-style guide in the HR20. If so, my apologies.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Ken S said:


> The SWM thing seems a little confusing in the chart.
> 
> I thought the SWM was a separate unit much like a regular multiswitch?
> 
> Anyway, shouldn't the real item be How many wires does the device need to fully operate?
> 
> Or is there something wrong with the way DISH does it with a splitter?
> 
> I'm not trying to start a fight...just curious as to what the difference is.


SWM is a seperate optional unit, just like a multiswitch.

DISH's version, is built into their LNB assembly, and you need a special dish. So it is the same thing... to get single wire solution, you need additional external hardware.

It's not like you can take the signal from "any" of the dishes (appropriate for the provider), and get a single wire solution.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jediphish said:


> For the HR20, you have it listed as having both grid and list style guides as an option. I am aware only of the grid option, with a list of what's on a channel being available by pressing "info." I don't consider having to press "info" for every channel to be the same as the list style guide offered on the HR10-250.
> 
> Maybe I missed an update that allows a sticky list-style guide in the HR20. If so, my apologies.


It is not "stuck", but it is an option to access a LIST style for a channel.


----------



## Ken S

Earl Bonovich said:


> SWM is a seperate optional unit, just like a multiswitch.
> 
> DISH's version, is built into their LNB assembly, and you need a special dish. So it is the same thing... to get single wire solution, you need additional external hardware.
> 
> It's not like you can take the signal from "any" of the dishes (appropriate for the provider), and get a single wire solution.


Okay, that's what I thought. I think the question is a bit misleading as the end result is that for full capability at present it's 10-250 (2 wires), HR20 (2 wires) and 622/722 (1 wire).

I assume that if I called Dish and asked for an install they would install a dish that would work with one wire just as DirecTV will give me an SWM (if needed) when that is available?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Ken S said:


> I assume that if I called Dish and asked for an install they would install a dish that would work with one wire just as DirecTV will give me an SWM (if needed) when that is available?


I am not 100% sure on the Dish aspect, (if that special dish is standard or not)... but in general... yes... if you needed a single wire install method, then the options will be there.


----------



## Ken S

Earl Bonovich said:


> It is not "stuck", but it is an option to access a LIST style for a channel.


It's a bit of a streeetch to call that a guide choice though. To get there you have to bring up the Guide, then move to the channel and then hit Info and wait. The on-screen label for that screen is "Info" not "Guide".


----------



## vurbano

tfederov said:


> I'm thinking we keep this to the "stock" information. There's tons of hacks out there for the TiVo and I'm sure we'll someday find hacks (okay, maybe not  ) for the HR20 as well.


Well if you are going to keep it stock for the HR10 and put in a "NO" for networking then by the same token take the silly SWM off for the HR20 because the typical customer cannot get it yet.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

vurbano said:


> Well if you are going to keep it stock for the HR10 and put in a "NO" for networking then by the same token take the silly SWM off for the HR20 because the typical customer cannot get it yet.


There is a BIG difference... between the "silly SWM" option, and hacking the TiVo product to enable networking.

If that is point of contention, then an * should be added to the SWM notation, that it is not available but expected in Q4/2007


----------



## DrrD

Milominderbinder2 said:


> DISH users need only one satellite dish.
> 
> As the comparison notes, DIRECTV does have a Single Wire Multiswitch (SWM)technology that allows you to combine both satellite cables into a single cable. Full roll-out is expected later this year.
> 
> Please do not base a decision to leave DIRECT on a need for a single wire.
> 
> - Craig


Thanks. So you can use just 1 wire with Dish with a standard install and still get both tuners?

I am not basing my decision solely on this, but it seems that the Dish hardware is superior (dual live buffers, not buggy, 2 TV feature, etc.) and most importantly I don't feel like calling D* 5 times in order not to have to pay hundreds of dollars to upgrade to MPEG-4 capability.

Funny thing is it started as a story to tell the CSR at D*, that I might switch to E*, so they would give me a deal, so I decided to research it to make my story more plausible. Well to my surprise I found my self thinking that maybe I should really switch.

This is a little off topic I know, but since much of my decision is based on hardware differences maybe it isn't.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

In the post [post=1059125]1059125[/post]:


micky76ag said:


> ...
> *Search/Autorecord title, person, keyword sections:*
> The HR20 really cannot do a Title Search Autorecord. It is stated in the manual that it can. There was a fix released last year to correct it but as of today that feature is not enabled. It has nothing to do with CIR.
> 
> So why does it say "Yes" on the matrix?


Because the HR20 can do a Title Search. The HR20 just can't Autorecord once the search is done.

- Craig


----------



## Milominderbinder2

Ken S,

Some have reported the SWM5 was included in their recent installations.

CIR does not show the just the Channels I Receiver on the HR20 yet. The user manually sets the CIR filter on the HR10, 622, and 722 but it works with their Guides, Searches, and Autorecords.

To go to the HR20 Channel List view, click Guide, then highlight a channel label and press INFO.

The 622 or 722 are free when you sign up with DISH:
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/our_products/dish_hd/offer/index.shtml

I did not believe it so I called to hear it for myself. The DISH CSR said that the 622 sales will be phased out as they move to the 722. I could have the 722 for free and HD programming free for 6 months.

I like the idea of putting the MSRP as a line item. 
Price:
For the HR10 it would be "Discontinued". 
For the HR20 I think the most fair way would be to say "$299 (leased)". For DISH, "Free (leased)"

Good questions and ideas.

- Craig


----------



## micky76ag

Then I would suggest the matrix change to:

“Search / Autorecord – Title” HR10-250: “yes/yes” HR20: “yes/no” DISH: “yes/yes”

Same for Person and Keyword searches?


----------



## Milominderbinder2

DrrD said:


> Thanks. So you can use just 1 wire with Dish with a standard install and still get both tuners?
> 
> I am not basing my decision solely on this, but it seems that the Dish hardware is superior (dual live buffers, not buggy, 2 TV feature, etc.) and most importantly I don't feel like calling D* 5 times in order not to have to pay hundreds of dollars to upgrade to MPEG-4 capability.
> 
> Funny thing is it started as a story to tell the CSR at D*, that I might switch to E*, so they would give me a deal, so I decided to research it to make my story more plausible. Well to my surprise I found my self thinking that maybe I should really switch.
> 
> This is a little off topic I know, but since much of my decision is based on hardware differences maybe it isn't.


DrrD,

My HR20 is not buggy. They have added 25 key Wish List features in the past year. They have also added another 25 features we had not considered.

I would say to wait 30 days at least to make that decision. Really the only line item that matters on this chart is the number of HD channels.

The only reason to buy a receiver is because of what it can receive.

Within 30 days the HR20 will go from 10 to 70 HD channels. By year-end CEO Chase Carey promises 100. By the end of 2008, 150 are promised.

Also the chart would change in other key areas if Channels I Receive were fixed. Plus 2,000 VOD programs are promised by fall as well.

A lot could be happening all at once.

- Craig


----------



## tfederov

No pricing. With the different ways we can get the equipment I don't think we should be held to a price point. The purpose of this is to explain the differences between the DVRs at a high level. 

D* customers using an HR10-250 can compare the features they have with an HR20 or a ViP box. E* customers looking to change to D* can see what their DVR looks like. Folks coming from cable or antenna  can see the differences between the two and make their own decision.


If the person reading this likes what they see then they need to call D* or E*. We've done our jobs. We got another person on the DBS(talk) bandwagon.


----------



## DrrD

Thanks for all the feedback.

Yes, the plethora of D* HDTV channels is a huge draw.

Probably I'll call D*, and if they give me a good deal on 2 HR20's I'll stay with them, but I feel like E* is a real option at this point.

I'm glad your HR20 is not buggy, but last week (and I haven't checked again recently, maybe it's been fixed) alot of people were reporting missed recordings.

Also, I don't know how I could go back to a single live buffer after 7 years of dual.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Definitely do not include pricing in my opinion since the only way to get an HR10 is somewhere like eBay.


----------



## Ken S

I only suggested the MSRP price as a baseline. At some point in time you may want to add on some of the standalone units from Tivo or other manufacturers. It's no big deal.
My other comments were aimed at making the comparison more of an accurate buying tool than a "marketing" piece.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Ken S said:


> I only suggested the MSRP price as a baseline. At some point in time you may want to add on some of the standalone units from Tivo or other manufacturers. It's no big deal.
> My other comments were aimed at making the comparison more of an accurate buying tool than a "marketing" piece.


I don't even thing MSRP's are available for the products... are they?

What would the HR10-250's be... the original $1,000 it was offered at?
What would the HR20's be... the $800ish purchase amount, the $299 pretty much standard "worst case" 
Not even sure what the ViPs would run..


----------



## Milominderbinder2

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...
> Not even sure what the ViPs would run..


Both are free with contract.

- Craig


----------



## tfederov

Version 12 (by the way, all of your input has made this a great doc. There's so much good info!) is just about ready. What I've done since Milominderbinder2's post at 11:05pm CDT (post 57):

- Kept Dish option to three and added in the footnote "Each version has an option of Picture in Guide" which would give us six.

- Kept 1 SAT input in 622/722 cell with a footnote mentioning that one cable is run and a splitter is used at the end to feed two inputs.

- DISH MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 have been meshed into one cell because DISH does not break out the differences. Got that from a DISH guru.

- Footnote 12 describes the List feature using the HR20

The autorecord search by title is the only thing left outstanding. I'm running some tests which should be done in about an hour. Once they're done I'll have a better idea where to go with it.

Thanks again, everybody for your input. v12 will be up later. Again, the only changes from v11 are what I have above.


----------



## Ken S

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't even thing MSRP's are available for the products... are they?
> 
> What would the HR10-250's be... the original $1,000 it was offered at?
> What would the HR20's be... the $800ish purchase amount, the $299 pretty much standard "worst case"
> Not even sure what the ViPs would run..


No, they're not...I just meant the standard price. $299 which is the MAP for the HR20.

MAP being minimum advertised price. If you advertise below that price you won't get marketing development money from DirecTV.

Like I said...no big deal.


----------



## tfederov

Okay, I just searched by title, picked "House" on Fox and set it to record. It worked. What's not working with this feature?


----------



## Ken S

tfederov said:


> Okay, I just searched by title, picked "House" on Fox and set it to record. It worked. What's not working with this feature?


tfederov,

The problem lies in picking shows that may appear on multiple channels...some of which you may not receive.


----------



## tfederov

I'm going to go with the assumption that a person knows which channels they receive and leave Search/Autorecord - Title to Yes. When CIR is re-added to the HR20 hopefully this will be moot. v12 is up on the opening post.


----------



## Ken S

tfederov said:


> I'm going to go with the assumption that a person knows which channels they receive and leave Search/Autorecord - Title to Yes. When CIR is re-added to the HR20 hopefully this will be moot. v12 is up on the opening post.


tfederov,

I'm sorry I got cut off before I finished. The person may know, but the HR20 doesn't so it will attempt to record a show (this is especially prevalent with sports) on a channel the person isn't receiving that day...thus making the function pretty much useless. I'm sure people that have suffered from the flaw can give a better description of the problems.


----------



## tfederov

Ken S said:


> tfederov,
> 
> I'm sorry I got cut off before I finished. The person may know, but the HR20 doesn't so it will attempt to record a show (this is especially prevalent with sports) on a channel the person isn't receiving that day...thus making the function pretty much useless. I'm sure people that have suffered from the flaw can give a better description of the problems.


I think I understand what you're meaning... the "blackout" kiss of death. I'm not sure the TiVo or the ViP know what channels are blacked out either. I'm pretty sure the TiVo doesn't because I could swear I remember having that issue when mine were running.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

tfederov said:


> Okay, I just searched by title, picked "House" on Fox and set it to record. It worked. What's not working with this feature?


Search works. Now hit the Autorecord button at the top left of the screeen...

Oops. Not there. The manual says it's there...

To see how it is supposed to work do a keyword search and you will see where the Autorecord button is supposed to be.

Fixing CIR will not reinstate the missing Title Search Autorecord option.

DIRECTV has twice believed that they had Title Search Autorecord fixed:

Version 0x115 (01/08/2007): _Elvis *CE*_
• *Recording reliability: auto record keyword, title, series-link, and manual recordings should all work as expected. *
• Keep Delete bug fixed

Version 0x119 (01/13/2007): _Elvis 2_ *CE*
• *Recording reliability: auto record keyword, title, series-link, and manual recordings should all work as expected.*

- Craig


----------



## Gary Toma

What a magnificent bit of work you guys!

Your comparison is just a superb document.

I am truly impressed!

Most of all: Thanks for your time and effort and caring.


----------



## tfederov

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Search works. Now hit the Autorecord button at the top left of the screeen...
> 
> Oops. Not there. The manual says it's there...
> 
> To see how it is supposed to work do a keyword search and you will see where the Autorecord button is supposed to be.
> 
> Fixing CIR will not reinstate the missing Title Search Autorecord option.
> 
> DIRECTV has twice believed that they had Title Search Autorecord fixed:
> 
> Version 0x115 (01/08/2007): _Elvis *CE*_
> • *Recording reliability: auto record keyword, title, series-link, and manual recordings should all work as expected. *
> • Keep Delete bug fixed
> 
> Version 0x119 (01/13/2007): _Elvis 2_ *CE*
> • *Recording reliability: auto record keyword, title, series-link, and manual recordings should all work as expected.*
> 
> - Craig


ahhh. Understood. 'Tis now "No".


----------



## -copyguy-

I've been a D* SD subscriber since '95. I've been looking at moving to an HD setup and after reading this thread (and about HR20 receiver bugs) I may just jump ship and go with E* instead...it'd be cheaper, I think, as I'd get the "new subscriber" rates. With D* it seems that loyalty gets you nothing...

Anyhow, thanks for the great comparision and keep up the great work!

-cg-


----------



## tfederov

Good to know this thing is working!

As a D* loyalist I gotta tell you.... don't forget about all of the new HD channels coming very soon.


----------



## tgater

Not to mention that E* limits the number of receivers one can have, when I looked into them they wanted me to have a commercial account because I have 8 sets in my house. When I agreeded just to have their HD units in my Office and my MBR they shipped the HD for the office, an installer showed up with the other unit and then wanted to charge me another $75 to install the unit that E* shipped to me.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Tony,

This an awesome, awesome job. I've tried to respond more than once, only to be driven away on to other things. I should have just started with awesome job and then reviewed.

A couple of things that might be worth adding. I would like to see more information comparing the search filters and categories. That seems like that a next battleground for DVRs to differentiate themselves--search complexity. Thanks, Steve for bringing that topic to light, btw.

Some other points of comparison:

two touch recurring recordings
MRV
guide categories (how many, or what types for instance)
retention options (1-5 for HR20, 1-5, 10 for HR10, not sure about Vip)
manual recurring recording retention ability (Same as Season pass on HR10, none on HR20.)
I would also move the digital audio to the physical connector section. I keep looking for it there and seems to fit better in my mind.

As for the MSRP question, I have seen it in reviews but so often that is not a true value and isn't with the DVRs here, that I'm glad it is not included. And the "street value" number isn't very usefull here either as there are so many variations.

Again, great job!
Tom


----------



## tfederov

Tom Robertson said:


> Tony,
> 
> This an awesome, awesome job. I've tried to respond more than once, only to be driven away on to other things. I should have just started with awesome job and then reviewed.
> 
> A couple of things that might be worth adding. I would like to see more information comparing the search filters and categories. That seems like that a next battleground for DVRs to differentiate themselves--search complexity. Thanks, Steve for bringing that topic to light, btw.
> 
> Some other points of comparison:
> 
> two touch recurring recordings
> MRV
> guide categories (how many, or what types for instance)
> retention options (1-5 for HR20, 1-5, 10 for HR10, not sure about Vip)
> manual recurring recording retention ability (Same as Season pass on HR10, none on HR20.)
> I would also move the digital audio to the physical connector section. I keep looking for it there and seems to fit better in my mind.
> 
> As for the MSRP question, I have seen it in reviews but so often that is not a true value and isn't with the DVRs here, that I'm glad it is not included. And the "street value" number isn't very usefull here either as there are so many variations.
> 
> Again, great job!
> Tom


Two touch recordings - Hitting the "R" button twice without confirmation on the HR20?

I think the search would be a good one. I don't believe any of them have "true" MRV. My definition of MRV would be watching a show on one DVR that came off another. The ViP can be controlled by two TVs but I don't know if you would call that "true" MRV. I'll ask about retention options on the ViP this afternoon (I'm sneaking away for a coffee break to type this!  ) For the last one, I had no idea there wasn't a retention option for manual recordings... I don't do that many.

I'll try working on "d" tonight if I can. Milominderbinder2 came up with a few other comments. It's softball night and it's a late one. Thanks for the positive comments!


----------



## Tom Robertson

tfederov said:


> Two touch recordings - Hitting the "R" button twice without confirmation on the HR20?
> 
> I think the search would be a good one. I don't believe any of them have "true" MRV. My definition of MRV would be watching a show on one DVR that came off another. The ViP can be controlled by two TVs but I don't know if you would call that "true" MRV. I'll ask about retention options on the ViP this afternoon (I'm sneaking away for a coffee break to type this!  ) For the last one, I had no idea there wasn't a retention option for manual recordings... I don't do that many.
> 
> I'll try working on "d" tonight if I can. Milominderbinder2 came up with a few other comments. It's softball night and it's a late one. Thanks for the positive comments!


Two touch season pass/series links/whatever the Vip calls a recurring series recording. The HR20 has it, the HR10 does not. No clue about the Vip.

As for MRV, it took more than a backdoor code on the HR10 and it used to have it, but apparently no longer does. I think it is worth including but perhaps we'll just add this in a future update to the comparison. 

Good luck on softball nite.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I updated the original post with a PDF again, happy to help of course. Sorry it took so long but you know, real life...


----------



## tfederov

Stuart Sweet said:


> Sorry it took so long but you know, real life...


No... I don't. 

I'm hoping things slow down. I'll try getting to "d" tonight if I can. Worst case tomorrow.


----------



## HalfFull

One thing on your comparison list:

The Vip622 phone connection....the new feature with Ethernet connection is supposed to **eliminate** (not add) the need for an additional $5 fee if not connected by phone. Currently, Dish customers are charged the $5 if they don't have a phone line connection. 

This is very good for those customers who have a cell phone only at their house.


----------



## jclark

I am glad that I saw this thread today. I have been considering going to E* just for the DVR. I don't really hate the HR20, but I don't really like it either. My sister got E*, and the 622 looked much better than the HR20. But, I don't want to make a decision just because the interface is pretty. So this gives me a lot more info and things to try on my sisters receiver.

Thanks!


----------



## tfederov

Shameless bump. I think we've finally done it. Thanks everyone!


----------



## scottchez

Wow, this really helps. I have been looking for weeks for hardware details in the Direct TV receivers (I really have) , I have dish now, and I am thinking of you know what when my contract ends next month.

Are there any First look reviews on the Direct TV HD DVR (HR20-700) that shows screen shows of the Guides and Menus? That would help also for the software comparison.

I still do not understand what the difference between a HR20-250 or HR20-700 (the 700 part) or am I confused and they are the same things?

Always good to compare and research options. Thanks everyone.


----------



## tfederov

For screenshots, you can look at Earl's review (look in the HR20 information resources) or you can check out the HR20 manual here: http://www.directv.com/see/pdf/060508HR20UserGuidev1_0b.pdf

There is no HR20-250. There is an HR10-250 (TiVo software), HR20-100 and HR20-700. The -200 and -700 are different makers. I believe -200 is samsung and -700 is Pace.


----------



## dthreet

Not to talk down about this new dvr, however I think they it needs a face lift. I know I am not the only one that thinks it is ugly. Directv's hd dvr might not work any better but looks alot nicer. Maybe thats why dish gives it free to new customers.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Not sure if this was already mentioned, the file should be updated to include:

HR20 "Simultaneous Recordings" = 3

(DOD adds the 3'rd)


----------



## Trak101

Great work, great thread, etc.

One small thing... My HR10-250 most definitely got my local HD channels from the satellite. (I'm in the greater NYC area)..

(Notice the use of the past tense. My HR10 shot craps and D* replaced it free with the HR20-700 and the 5 line dish. So I am loving this thread...)


----------



## Que

HR10 does have "Group (Folder) Playback" You have the option to have the group folder or not.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Trak101 said:


> Great work, great thread, etc.
> 
> One small thing... My HR10-250 most definitely got my local HD channels from the satellite. (I'm in the greater NYC area)..
> 
> (Notice the use of the past tense. My HR10 shot craps and D* replaced it free with the HR20-700 and the 5 line dish. So I am loving this thread...)


Same here in So Cal. My HR10 gets sat fed locals too. Perhaps tfed was referring to MPEG4 locals. If so, the HR10 cannot receive MPEG4 locals...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Hutchinshouse said:


> Same here in So Cal. My HR10 gets sat fed locals too. Perhaps tfed was referring to MPEG4 locals. If so, the HR10 cannot receive MPEG4 locals...


Technically if you are in the LA or NY areas you're receiving the Distant Network feeds for DIRECTV HD subscribers, which happen to be your local stations. It's a temporary coincidence... at some point Distant networks will go away.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Stuart Sweet said:


> Technically if you are in the LA or NY areas you're receiving the Distant Network feeds for DIRECTV HD subscribers, which happen to be your local stations. It's a temporary coincidence... at some point Distant networks will go away.


Okay, I'm lost. What is a "Distant Network feed"? My locals are all Los Angeles channels. I do not receive NY locals. I guess I just do not understand the Distant Network comment. I've had these channels (Los Angeles feeds) since I got my HR10-250 around a year ago. I realize the HR10 will never decode MPEG4. Tfed's excel sheet states "No Local HD Channels by Satellite for the HR10". Myself and Trak101 were simply stating we receive HD locals via sat feed. I guess we're lucky since we're in the bigger markets.


----------



## tfederov

Que said:


> HR10 does have "Group (Folder) Playback" You have the option to have the group folder or not.


Nope. Group playback is hitting the play button on the folder and it playing all of the shows inside the folder without the end user having to do anything. HR10 has folders but not the ability to play all the shows in it with one push of the button.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Hutchinshouse said:


> Okay, I'm lost. What is a "Distant Network feed"? My locals are all Los Angeles channels. I do not receive NY locals. I guess I just do not understand the Distant Network comment. I've had these channels (Los Angeles feeds) since I got my HR10-250 around a year ago. I realize the HR10 will never decode MPEG4. Tfed's excel sheet states "No Local HD Channels by Satellite for the HR10". Myself and Trak101 were simply stating we receive HD locals via sat feed. I guess we're lucky since we're in the bigger markets.


Before MPEG4, the only HD channels were the LA and NY feeds. Long before that, before locals were available in all markets, the LA and NY (and a long time ago, Seattle) feeds were available nationally to people who could not get locals. These were called distant network feeds and they still broadcast which is why you (Hutch) get your locals on 2,4,5, and 7 and also in the 80s (I think).

These distant network feeds will be phased out when DIRECTV feels they cover enough markets locally so they're not necessary.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Stuart Sweet said:


> Before MPEG4, the only HD channels were the LA and NY feeds. Long before that, before locals were available in all markets, the LA and NY (and a long time ago, Seattle) feeds were available nationally to people who could not get locals. These were called distant network feeds and they still broadcast which is why you (Hutch) get your locals on 2,4,5, and 7 and also in the 80s (I think).
> 
> These distant network feeds will be phased out when DIRECTV feels they cover enough markets locally so they're not necessary.


Thanks for the info...


----------



## Milominderbinder2

Tony,

I was just going back through your finished product.

Wow.

Great job!

- Craig


----------



## tfederov

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Tony,
> 
> I was just going back through your finished product.
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Great job!
> 
> - Craig


Thanks! And thanks a billion for your help! With some of the new things on the way for D* (more HD channels, DoD) I'm sure I'll be tweaking soon.


----------



## hdthebest

I now have HR20-700, I changed from VIP 722 because of technical issues. I have to say D* menus are much better than E* and the DD is much more clearer and crisper on D*. The picture quality is about the same here so if I had to choose one I would go with HR20-700


----------



## HarryS

The activation fee for the USB external HDD) is 39.99, not 30.00.


----------



## Doug Brott

With all of the new folks looking this way for the upcoming HD channels, I thought it might be a good time to give this thread a bump ..


----------



## tfederov

So far from what I can tell, no major updates are going to be needed for it except for the number of HD channels for the HR20. I'm gonna have to poke my head back over in the Dish area to see if anything is new for the ViP 622/722.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

Tony,

I see you are updating for the comparison to include the HR21.

Thank you!

- Craig


----------



## Doug Brott

I also updated the title to reflect the addition of the HR21-700 to the comparison.

Thanks Tony.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

One great update for the HR20/21...

One Touch Guide Standard 

is now YES!

- Craig


----------



## hdtvfan0001

This should be a sticky thread, and *mandatory* reading for anyone interested in HD DVR's.

If people first read this, the list of redundant and rehashed questions/posts would drop exponentially. There is great information that covers 90% of the topics which populated other threads.


----------



## tfederov

Wow, I missed the past few comments... Thanks, guys!


----------



## GrumpyBear

Doug Brott said:


> With all of the new folks looking this way for the upcoming HD channels, I thought it might be a good time to give this thread a bump ..


That was a great idea, this is a great document.


----------



## John in Georgia

tfederov,

Great job! Thank you very much.

John



tfederov said:


> Wow, I missed the past few comments... Thanks, guys!


----------



## Drew2k

Tony - Great job! I can't believe I've never seen this before!

One suggestion: The PDF page heading says "Satellite HD Receiver Comparison", but maybe it should have "DVR" in their somewhere?

Again, great job! This should really be a sticky on the FRONT PAGE of DBSTalk!


----------



## tfederov

Thanks, Drew! Fixed it. 13b is now known as Satellite HD DVR Comparison.


----------



## tonyoci

Nice comparison but I have one comment.

I think it's misleading to state that the HR20 and HR21 have List or Grid guides. The list guide is nothing like the one on the HR10, maybe a more clear note would help.

Really nice work though.


----------



## glenj68

I have an HR20-700 and am looking getting a second HD dvr for PIP only, will the DirecTV HD DVR HR10-250 work still. I see one on EBAY and it's only $80.


----------



## atoner

Nice work.

I have a ViP 622 and am considering a switch to DirecTV when I move next week. Here are some suggestions/comments/questions for the comparison:

Any update on the SWM? Is it available yet?

Some terms could use explanation for newbies: Audio Toggling, Bookmarks, Showcases, Wishlist, etc.

Regarding "Channels I Receive" the ViP622 comes with three guide options: all, subscribed, and HD. In addition, one can add custom favorites lists.

Is the 30 Second "Slip" where it takes about 2 seconds to advance 30 seconds? Again, this could use explanation for newbies.

Is there an update on the Phone connection required: $5 / ethernet for the ViP 622? I haven't hooked up ethernet yet to enable the on demand and call-home over ethernet, but my expectation is that doing so would eliminate the need for a phone connection and that the $5 charge only applies if one doesn't have phone or ethernet.

Does the HR21 still not offer ATSC and the HR20 still not offer ATSC scanning? Is there a roadmap for these features?

It would be helpful to include theme browsing (unless I just missed a term for this feature). For example, on the ViP622 I can browse by sports...football and get a listing of all shows matching that theme/sub-theme. However, the GUI is a bit cumbersome - it is a simple list rather than a guide view.

Another guide feature is jumping to a particular day rather than scrolling by 30-minute blocks. On my old cable box I could browse in the guide by theme or date. With the ViP622 guide I can skip ahead 1 day at a time with a button press or key in a certain number of hours to skip ahead.

It may also be worth mentioning how the DVR's handle conflicts, recording priority, deleting old shows when out of space, etc. if there are differences.

Thanks for the work on this comparison,
Adam


----------



## tfederov

Sorry, I've been out of town for a while and I just got back today....



> Any update on the SWM? Is it available yet?


I thought I read that they were in the field in limited areas but I could be wrong.



> Some terms could use explanation for newbies: Audio Toggling, Bookmarks, Showcases, Wishlist, etc.


This was meant to be a quick reference. If someone needs more information they could down the user manuals. That gives me a great idea. I'll add links for the manuals! Thanks!



> Regarding "Channels I Receive" the ViP622 comes with three guide options: all, subscribed, and HD. In addition, one can add custom favorites lists.


I ran the CIR by the mods in the DISH forum. I believe this is covered because they would have pointed it out (I hope  ).



> Is the 30 Second "Slip" where it takes about 2 seconds to advance 30 seconds? Again, this could use explanation for newbies.


That one could go either way. Depending on how the CE for the HR20 goes, this might be moot in the future (I'm only guessing).



> Is there an update on the Phone connection required: $5 / ethernet for the ViP 622? I haven't hooked up ethernet yet to enable the on demand and call-home over ethernet, but my expectation is that doing so would eliminate the need for a phone connection and that the $5 charge only applies if one doesn't have phone or ethernet.


I was told that there was a $5 charge if Ethernet was used instead of phoneline.



> Does the HR21 still not offer ATSC and the HR20 still not offer ATSC scanning? Is there a roadmap for these features?


No ATSC on the HR21 and no scanning still for the HR20. If there's a roadmap I'm not aware of it.



> It would be helpful to include theme browsing (unless I just missed a term for this feature). For example, on the ViP622 I can browse by sports...football and get a listing of all shows matching that theme/sub-theme. However, the GUI is a bit cumbersome - it is a simple list rather than a guide view.


It's part of the grid view (Pressing guide twice)



> Another guide feature is jumping to a particular day rather than scrolling by 30-minute blocks. On my old cable box I could browse in the guide by theme or date. With the ViP622 guide I can skip ahead 1 day at a time with a button press or key in a certain number of hours to skip ahead.


I'm not sure if skipping ahead in the guide is an important enough feature to add. These are DVRs so who cares when it's on? 

So without further adieu, version 14!


----------



## houskamp

tfederov said:


> I'm not sure if skipping ahead in the guide is an important enough feature to add. These are DVRs so who cares when it's on?
> 
> So without further adieu, version 14!


You can skip to a specific date/time on HR..


----------



## tfederov

houskamp said:


> You can skip to a specific date/time on HR..


Shows how often I use it. :grin:

So are we thinking it needs to be in there?


----------



## highheater

Can anyone comment on the speed of channel changes with these receivers? Are all of them slower than the non-DVR equivalents? 

I like to switch between baseball games, sometimes on a pitch-by-pitch basis, and a slow channel changer would be problematic. Would forego the entire DVR thing if it was slower.


----------



## tfederov

I personally have not had any issues changing channels live when watching football. All of my receivers are DVRs but it's nothing that raises a red flag to me.


----------



## highheater

tfederov said:


> I personally have not had any issues changing channels live when watching football. All of my receivers are DVRs but it's nothing that raises a red flag to me.


I've seen threads here dedicated to the 'sluggishness' of receivers. Comments to the extent that if you were wishing to get something as fast as your old Sony receivers - forget it.

I was just looking for some general guidance with respect to which available receivers might be fastest.

Is the delay between video -to- video on the order of 1/4 , 1/2 , 1 second? Does one get audio before the picture ? Perhaps unimportant to some but for a game hawk like myself the differnce between an enjoyable and frustrating viewing experience.


----------



## tfederov

I don't have it timed but for my viewing habits it's pretty darn good.


----------



## ColdCase

highheater said:


> Can anyone comment on the speed of channel changes with these receivers? Are all of them slower than the non-DVR equivalents?
> 
> I like to switch between baseball games, sometimes on a pitch-by-pitch basis, and a slow channel changer would be problematic. Would forego the entire DVR thing if it was slower.


I don't think there is much difference between any of the current non DVR models. I don't think there is much difference between current DVR models. Other variables may mask the difference between DVR and non DVR.

For me, the HR21 (DVR) channel changes a tad slower than the HD20 (non DVR) which has an agonizingly long channel change time compared to the current non HD DVR. Switching between the two tuners in the DVR may be a tad quicker than switching channels on non DVRs, however.

Switching from a HD channel to a non HD adds a second or two. Switching between HD channels is a tad longer than switching between SD channels.

If you have native on and are running HDMI, there will be three or 4 more seconds added when there is also a change in resolution.

So You may notice a tad slower channel change between a DVR and non DVR receiver, but its in the noise for me. You may think differently. Switching from a HD game to a non HD with native on can take 5 seconds or so. That is the worst case scenario I think. I see more difference in channel change delay comparing SD receivers to HD receivers than DVR and non-DVRs.

All channel changes are agonizing slow.....


----------



## highheater

ColdCase said:


> Switching from a HD game to a non HD with native on can take 5 seconds or so. That is the worst case scenario I think. I see more difference in channel change delay comparing SD receivers to HD receivers than DVR and non-DVRs.
> 
> All channel changes are agonizing slow.....


Thanks Cold Case ... this was the information I was looking for ... Sounds like an upgrade to HD will slow channel changing compared to my SD receiver now.

Is the audio delay as long as the video delay? Do you really get 5 seconds of darkness and silence during a channel switch?

Will they delay be minimized by a) going through component and b) letting the TV do the scaling (native off)?


----------



## bimplebean

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Were we told that the HR10 has OTA Scan? That is so huge.
> 
> Doesn't the HR10 have Screen Centering?
> Will the HR10 be able to show DIRECTV On Demand?
> 
> Other TiVos have Remote Programmability or MRV Multi room Viewing. Does the HR10?
> 
> We need to hear from some of the HR10 crowd...


The HR10 can scan OTA channels and add 'em to the list. 
HR10 has no multi-room built in. I think only one video outlet is active at any time.
HR10 does not have Remote Programmability, although standard Tivos do. This was specifically not supported by DirecTV.


----------



## GregLee

One of the rows is "Local Sub-Channels by Satellite" and the entries for all the DirecTV DVRs is "No". Yet I get a local sub-channel on my HR20: KHET-DT2 (PBS) in Hawaii. (Not that this comparison has any relevance to comparing DVRs ...)


----------



## Drew2k

GregLee said:


> One of the rows is "Local Sub-Channels by Satellite" and the entries for all the DirecTV DVRs is "No". Yet I get a local sub-channel on my HR20: KHET-DT2 (PBS) in Hawaii. (Not that this comparison has any relevance to comparing DVRs ...)


You're receiving your sub-channel via OTA antenna though, not via *satellite*, which is what is being documented in the row you referenced.


----------



## GregLee

Drew2k said:


> You're receiving your sub-channel via OTA antenna though, not via *satellite*, which is what is being documented in the row you referenced.


No, I don't have an OTA antenna.

Edit: And by the way, D* carries a another sub-channel in Hawaii, KHONDT2, which is the CW affiliate.


----------



## BamaDave

Good read! I have several HR10-250’s and it’s a shame that we are being forced to upgrade in order to obtain all the soon to be added HD broadcasts. Spent an arm and a leg for what is soon to be outdated equipment. It’s almost like racketeering.


----------



## tfederov

Unfortunately it's the cost of being bleeding edge. I used to have four HR10-250s and got them at cost.


----------



## tfederov

Bump for version 14a. Merry Christmas!


----------



## tfederov

Bump for version 14b. Happy New Year!


----------



## bimplebean

Sorry to be a noob, but does this mean a firmware upgrade got pushed? Is the HR-21 included?

Thanks..


----------



## tfederov

No problem! :welcome_s

There is a staggared rollout for the HR20-700. Notes here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1379420#post1379420

There was no push for the HR21 although I do have the latest info in my compare notes for the HR21. There are some items in the compare that are in CE (Cutting Edge) only and those are noted.


----------



## FarmerCharlie

This is great! I am one of those who was caught up in the recent DirecTV Sony Sat-HD200 debacle, and I am thinking about switching to Dish after 11 years with DirecTV. Your post gave me a very good comparison. There is one thing I wish you would consider adding: I would like to see a paragraph or two giving your overview and a few pros and cons for people like me. I am especially interested in whether the VIP722 will have as good an interface as the Sony Sat-HD200. I know that the H20 definitely does not, and I presume the HR20 has the same kludgy interface. Also are the OTA tuners comparable in the DirecTV vs Dish receivers? I am in a fringe area, and I have to use a roof antenna and rotor to get the signals from three different directions.


----------



## conchshell

this is great! thanks for posting it. btw there is no ethernet charge with dish


----------



## tfederov

FarmerCharlie said:


> This is great! I am one of those who was caught up in the recent DirecTV Sony Sat-HD200 debacle, and I am thinking about switching to Dish after 11 years with DirecTV. Your post gave me a very good comparison. There is one thing I wish you would consider adding: I would like to see a paragraph or two giving your overview and a few pros and cons for people like me. I am especially interested in whether the VIP722 will have as good an interface as the Sony Sat-HD200. I know that the H20 definitely does not, and I presume the HR20 has the same kludgy interface. Also are the OTA tuners comparable in the DirecTV vs Dish receivers? I am in a fringe area, and I have to use a roof antenna and rotor to get the signals from three different directions.


Thanks! I really can't put in pros and cons because a) I've never played with the DISH equipment and b) I'm very happy with DIRECTV so my opinion may lean toward them. Any time you put in opinions like that they could come across as skewed by what the author believes.


----------



## FarmerCharlie

tfederov said:


> Thanks! I really can't put in pros and cons because a) I've never played with the DISH equipment and b) I'm very happy with DIRECTV so my opinion may lean toward them. Any time you put in opinions like that they could come across as skewed by what the author believes.


Fair enough. I appreciate it when someone is reluctant to speculate. I too was happy with DirectTV for 11 years--until last month they took away two of the HD channels I had been receiving, and then last Thursday they did something that made worthless several models of HD receivers, including my two Sony Sat-HD200 receivers.
And thanks again for your excellent table.


----------



## deltafowler

Tony,
I just read your comparison guide and it's very informative.
I know you've worked hard on it.

A couple of observations.

While the Dish models do not have skip to tick functionality, do they not still automatically skip to live play when the stop button is pressed?
It seems to me that this would be worth mentioning.
It's one of the things I still miss from my Dish days.

Also, I don't think the footnote 10 fully disclaims what a PITA DirecTV's CIR is to setup. You basically have to create the whole list channel by channel, while Dish just lets you select the option and you're only shown what's in your subscription package.
Furthermore, Dish will automatically update it as changes occur, including when free preview weekends are available.
To me, it's night and day and worth more distinction than the footnote covers.
Another feature I REALLY miss about Dish.


----------



## harsh

The CIR issue on the DISH receivers is pretty much automatic, but PPV and event channels are included.

I'm wondering what the distinction is between showcase channels and mix channels.

Both providers are currently offering a limited release online programming capability.


----------



## tfederov

bump with updated info.


----------



## deltafowler

Great work!
I wish this thing was available when I was shopping for HD satellite receivers.
I never expected DirecTV to be THAT different


----------



## tfederov

Bump, 14d is the new version.


----------



## larrysano

Forgive me if these issues have been covered already - I searched this thread but couldn't find related posts.

I see in the comparison chart that on the DirecTV DVRs you can't watch recordings without satellite input. Does this include if you happen to lose your satellite service due to rain fade or other signal problems? I'm currently a Dish sub thinking of switching, and while I don't lose my signal often, it would be really annoying to not be able to watch any recordings when it does happen.

Is there a comparison chart for all the various iterations of the HR20's and HR21's out there (or at least 1 thread where all models are compared/contrasted)? It's hard to find out which ones are newer, what exactly the differences are, etc.

Thanks for a great resource, tfederov!


----------



## bimplebean

I actually had a similar question recently and tried this out on my HR10-250. I have it hooked up to an antenna on the top of my TV (in addition to the satellite connection) and it works pretty well in Los Angeles.

I removed the access card. At that point all DirecTV content became inaccessible. However I was still able to pick up local digital broadcasts, both SD and HD. I assume channel guide information goes away (doesn't that come from the satellite?) so if you had an HR10-250 you could still conceivably record off the air (OTA) digital even if weather interfered with your DirecTV content - assuming of course your antenna was not affected by that same weather. You'd have to program channel, date and time manually, of course.

Regarding the newer HR- DVRs from DirecTV I don't know. I have an HR21-700 with no OTA capability.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

larrysano said:


> Forgive me if these issues have been covered already - I searched this thread but couldn't find related posts.
> 
> I see in the comparison chart that on the DirecTV DVRs you can't watch recordings without satellite input. Does this include if you happen to lose your satellite service due to rain fade or other signal problems? I'm currently a Dish sub thinking of switching, and while I don't lose my signal often, it would be really annoying to not be able to watch any recordings when it does happen.
> 
> Is there a comparison chart for all the various iterations of the HR20's and HR21's out there (or at least 1 thread where all models are compared/contrasted)? It's hard to find out which ones are newer, what exactly the differences are, etc.
> 
> Thanks for a great resource, tfederov!


If you lose your SAT Signal... while the unit is still powered up (doesn't reboot), you will have no problems watching your content (at least for a limited period of time... I am not sure if anyone has tested it for a long loss of signal).

If your unit reboots.... and it can't find a signal, that is where it cant' watch the content... this has been improved in the current development/testing versions of the software, so should not be an issue going forward.

As for the comparison charts... the individual manufacture versions... have little or not difference with in the series HR20 or HR21.... notes are in the chart (See the Digital Audio Line, for one of the "notes" )


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bimplebean said:


> I actually had a similar question recently and tried this out on my HR10-250. I have it hooked up to an antenna on the top of my TV (in addition to the satellite connection) and it works pretty well in Los Angeles.
> 
> I removed the access card. At that point all DirecTV content became inaccessible. However I was still able to pick up local digital broadcasts, both SD and HD. I assume channel guide information goes away (doesn't that come from the satellite?) so if you had an HR10-250 you could still conceivably record off the air (OTA) digital even if weather interfered with your DirecTV content - assuming of course your antenna was not affected by that same weather. You'd have to program channel, date and time manually, of course.
> 
> Regarding the newer HR- DVRs from DirecTV I don't know. I have an HR21-700 with no OTA capability.


Without a valid Access Card, thus no valid DVR services... the only thing you will have access to is the 30 minute buffer. You will not be able to record.

The AM21 will soon be released to give you OTA on the HR21-700, however... it will not function with a valid account on the HR21 and HD Access


----------



## tfederov

larrysano said:


> Forgive me if these issues have been covered already - I searched this thread but couldn't find related posts.
> 
> I see in the comparison chart that on the DirecTV DVRs you can't watch recordings without satellite input. Does this include if you happen to lose your satellite service due to rain fade or other signal problems? I'm currently a Dish sub thinking of switching, and while I don't lose my signal often, it would be really annoying to not be able to watch any recordings when it does happen.
> 
> Is there a comparison chart for all the various iterations of the HR20's and HR21's out there (or at least 1 thread where all models are compared/contrasted)? It's hard to find out which ones are newer, what exactly the differences are, etc.
> 
> Thanks for a great resource, tfederov!


No, you'll be able to watch during rain fade and other signal problems but you can't boot the box without satellite inputs. Maybe I should clarify that in the doc. We decided to keep it by HR20 and HR21 without going too deep into the models because they are mostly the same. Where there is a difference, it's noted in there (digital coax for the HR20-100 and not the HR20-700 for example).

Man, Earl! I'm a slow typer!!!!


----------



## larrysano

Ok - that's good that you'd still be able to access your recordings as long as the box doesn't reboot. Thanks for the replies everyone!


----------



## deltafowler

Once again, great job on this list!

One more thing I didn't see on the head-to-head, or perhaps I missed it.
On the Dish recorders they have a single button to return immediately to live viewing.
With the DirectV products, it's an undocumented trickplay feature achieved by holding the slip button for more than 3 seconds. Even then, it will skip to the end of the current program. If you're viewing two programs deep into the buffer, you'll have to push it again.


----------



## tfederov

Live viewing from a recording? You'd hit the exit button if that's what you mean.


----------



## deltafowler

No, I mean if you're watching a show from the buffer (otherwise not recorded) and want to return immediately to live.

For example, I'm watching a basketball game and there was a cool play about 30 minutes ago.
A buddy stops by and I want to back up and show him the play.
I hit REW and go back to the play and we watch it.

Now, I'm ready to catch back up with live action.
I hit Exit on the DirecTV remote and nothing happens. It clears the timeline bar if one is showing, but that's it.

On a Dish product, I hit the Live button and I'm immediately transported back to real-time programming.


----------



## Jon J

deltafowler said:


> Now, I'm ready to catch back up with live action.
> I hit Exit on the DirecTV remote and nothing happens. It clears the timeline bar if one is showing, but that's it.


In this instance, if you hold down the slip/skip button won't you skip to the end of the buffer?


----------



## deltafowler

Jon J said:


> In this instance, if you hold down the slip/skip button won't you skip to the end of the buffer?


You will skip to the end of the current program.
If you are into a second program in the buffer, you'll have to do that twice.
My point is that Dish has a single button that requires a single push to accomplish this.
No hold downs, no tricks - just skip to live immediately.
It's a difference worth noting, especially since DirecTV's remote doesn't even have that button.


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## tfederov

I'll make a note of it and add it to the next version. I want to try sending out updates every quarter or major change if possible.


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## somguy

tfederov said:


> I haven't found an all-encompassing doc trying to compare DVRs so I thought I'd take a shot. If you guys have stuff that needs adding or correcting, by all means I'm all ears. I just thought this would be helpful for those new to the satellite HD DVR world.
> 
> *Added 3/17 (v14d):* Added AM21 to the HR21 information, removed CE tag for IP dial home, MediaShare video, and DIRECTV onDemand.


This is awesome.............thank you so much for taking your time to create this; it is very much appreciated.


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## tfederov

Gratuitous bump for version 14e.


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## RAD

Tony, on the HR21 for Sumultaneous Recordings it should be the same as the HR20, 2+1 for DoD. Also don't know if you want to add remote scheduleing via internet? Thanks for keeping it up to date.


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## tfederov

RAD said:


> Tony, on the HR21 for Sumultaneous Recordings it should be the same as the HR20, 2+1 for DoD. Also don't know if you want to add remote scheduleing via internet? Thanks for keeping it up to date.


Doh! I changed it in my Excel sheet, I want to see if the DISH ones can do that before I post 14f. Nice catch!


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## harsh

tfederov said:


> Doh! I changed it in my Excel sheet, I want to see if the DISH ones can do that before I post 14f. Nice catch!


Remote scheduling for the ViP622 began testing, but the test was aborted and nothing has been said since.


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## tfederov

harsh said:


> Remote scheduling for the ViP622 began testing, but the test was aborted and nothing has been said since.


Thanks, harsh!


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## jnelaine

Tony,

GREAT thread - exactly what I was looking for since DirecTV is starting to call me non-stop to offer me upgrades for my HR10-250s.

I noticed one thing that you may want to update. With the recent software upgrade to version 6.4 on the HR10-250, remote scheduling via the internet is now available. Maybe you could mark that down with a "Yes" and have a footnote that you need 6.4. Also, I'm not sure what "Single Overlap Recording" means in your list, but version 6.4 comes with a new overlap protection feature.

Thanks,
Jay


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## tfederov

jnelaine said:


> Tony,
> 
> GREAT thread - exactly what I was looking for since DirecTV is starting to call me non-stop to offer me upgrades for my HR10-250s.
> 
> I noticed one thing that you may want to update. With the recent software upgrade to version 6.4 on the HR10-250, remote scheduling via the internet is now available. Maybe you could mark that down with a "Yes" and have a footnote that you need 6.4. Also, I'm not sure what "Single Overlap Recording" means in your list, but version 6.4 comes with a new overlap protection feature.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jay


Thanks, Jay. I'm currently in update mode with that and a couple of other things on the DISH side. I'm holding off for a little bit but should probably be ready for an update in the next couple of weeks.


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## tfederov

Bump for update.


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## Stuart Sweet

Tony, well done, again! You deserve a lot of credit and all of our thanks!


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## GrumpyBear

Tony,
Great job on all this.
What about adding Autotune to the Dish ViP series, in the Features list?
I travel alot, and use the Autotune for a lot of shows. Otherwise I would come home and have 60hrs of shows I didn't want recorded. Autotune is also on the HR2x wishlist too.


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## harsh

GrumpyBear said:


> I travel alot, and use the Autotune for a lot of shows. Otherwise I would come home and have 60hrs of shows I didn't want recorded.


Perhaps you could offer an explanation of why autotune versus recording directly? Consider that most outboard DVR systems can handle the channel changing themselves.


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## tfederov

I'm not sure about adding the autotune because while it is cool, like harsh mentioned, most DVRs can handle the channel changing already.


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## Jhon69

Tony,Super List!.Is it possible to post the wattages these units use on the list?.Thanks!.


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## P Smith

Please add new Dish ViP722k to the charts.

[Be ready for new ViP922 ]

Umm, another remark - Dish DVRs had another additional simultanious 'channel 'for DishONLINE thru Internet.
There are more:
- EHD cost is $39.99
- EHD size raised to 1 TB officially, but ppl using 1.5 TB/2TB disks 
- 1080p only for 24 fps

I would add new line: Internal Disk size: 622: 320 Gb, 722:500GB, 922:1 TB.

Forget new Dish model : 211/411 can be converted to full fuctioning one sat + one OTA tuner DVR; price is the same $39.99 and disk size [official] 50Gb to 1 TB.


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## Mike Greer

Heck of a job Tony!

May I suggest a couple of additions?

The Dish Receivers can do IR and RF remotes at the same time. The HR2X series cannot.

Maybe a relative speed index of some sort? Things like speed moving through guide/recorded events lists and changing channels? You'd think it wouldn't be a big deal but I can tell you the HR22 is so damn slow it makes it difficult to use. People just going through the lists won't know there is such a huge difference in speed between these guys...

Thanks for the great work Tony.


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## P Smith

So, what is latest version and when it was updated ?


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## jnelaine

Mike Greer said:


> I can tell you the HR22 is so damn slow it makes it difficult to use. People just going through the lists won't know there is such a huge difference in speed between these guys...


I second that! The HR22 is excruciatingly slow. The unit is so slow to respond to even simple things like channel inputs. It shouldn't take me 3 tries to punch in 2-0-6 to flip to ESPN. I miss my HR10-250!


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## brett_the_bomb

I dunno if this thread is still alive but i noticed the live buffer may need some looking at on your chart, when you do double play i belive the live buffer goes to 4 hours. could be wrong though.


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## Poco Askew

I greatly perfer the speed and true 30 sec. skip of the 722, but there is one feature in particular that makes the HR20 series a must-have for me. Maybe I don't know the correct terminology, but I don't see it listed.

When both tuners are in use, and you have back-to-back recordings, the HR's maintain all their record paddings (start early / end late). The 722's can't do this. With shows ending late (especially ABC), the end of all those shows get cut off when using a 722 no matter how much end padding you set up for your recordings. It is a huge problem if you do a lot of recording and need both tuners simultaneously.


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## RAD

Poco Askew said:


> I greatly perfer the speed and true 30 sec. skip of the 722, ...


The HR2X's have a 30 second skip, you just need to enable it. Using the smart search do a search for 30skip and select all for the category, it won't find anything but it will enable 30sec skip, to go back to the default do the search for 30slip.


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## Mike Bertelson

brett_the_bomb said:


> I dunno if this thread is still alive but i noticed the live buffer may need some looking at on your chart, when you do double play i belive the live buffer goes to 4 hours. could be wrong though.


It's still 90 minutes per tuner. 

Mike


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## Whiskey River

The file attachement is gone, it gives an error message when attempting to download it.
can somebody fix that >?


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## peds48

Whiskey River said:


> The file attachement is gone, it gives an error message when attempting to download it.
> can somebody fix that >?


Not surprised since this thread is 5 years old!!!


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## litzdog911

Whiskey River said:


> The file attachement is gone, it gives an error message when attempting to download it.
> can somebody fix that >?


All of those models are pretty much obsolete now. What's your question?


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## harsh

peds48 said:


> Not surprised since this thread is 5 years old!!!


In another 50+ days it will be eight years old (perhaps more than a lifetime in CE equipment terms). The OP was posted on August 18, 2007 and a great deal has changed since then.


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## tfederov

Here ya go for what it's worth. I think it was my latest and it's about 100 years old.


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