# Problem With HPNA and H21 Receiver



## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Group:

My house has CAT 5 from the wiring closet to every room except the family room. It's not practical for me to run CAT 5 to where my bigscreen TV (which currently uses an H21 receiver) is.

I've been a directv customer for almost ten years. 

I know directv has rolled out its version of MoCA. But I'd rather not use that to provide internet over the coax for several reasons I won't bore anyone with here.

After some research (and using PowerLineAV 200 several years), I decided to try HPNA. Multiple references on it said it was dbs-compatible.

I bought a pair of Actiontec HCB1000 bridges on amazon. I installed one in my wiring closet on the coax that goes right down the bigscreen TV. 

There are no splitters on this segment - just a barrel connector that connects the coax from the roof to the one that goes to the H21 downstairs.

It didn't work. I just got "searching for satellite". I tried reversing the order of the F connectors (between STB/TV and COAX NETWORK) in case there was some directionality on it. I even unpowered the adapter. All four combinations yielded the same result.

Does anyone know of a workaround for this?

My system does not use a SWM. I have (see attached drawing) a 5 LNB dish and an international dish.

The HPNA adapter modulates on 12-28 MHz. It was my impression that the H21 and its LNB are modulating on about 900 MHz to 1.1 GHz. No collision there.

Is there some low frequency ac signaling that needs to go up from the H21 to the multiswitch and/or lnb?

I'd really love this to work. Any suggestions?

Bob Lowell


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

The problem is simple: these adapters are totally incompatible with satellite systems.

Satellite receivers not only get signal from the dish, but they also send power TO the dish. This power is DC voltage and voltage changes are used to select between banks of transponders.

The "Ethernet over coax" adapters you have block all power, so no power reaches the dish (or switch, in your case), which means that line is dead as far as the satellite receiver is concerned.

You either need an "Ethernet over power lines" solution (i.e., HomePlug technology), a WiFi solution, or you need to break down and run a CAT5 line.


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

The people at Actiontec told me that some people have gotten dbs televsion working with HPNA over coax.

I don't think it's 100% incompatible.

I also asked them about whether or not this adapter was blocking a dc bias voltage that either the lnb or the multiswitch need to function. They told me it would pass it.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

You might have to bore us with your rationale for not transitioning to SWM & DECA. Not that this would be a "correct" usage for DECA it would certainly function better than what you're using. There's several DIY type "kits" available out there to do this quick and easy, and they probably cost less than what you spent already.

BTW since you have the international dish a SWM8 or SWM16 would be necessary should you choose that route.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

rlowell said:


> The people at Actiontec told me that some people have gotten dbs televsion working with HPNA over coax.
> 
> I don't think it's 100% incompatible.
> 
> I also asked them about whether or not this adapter was blocking a dc bias voltage that either the lnb or the multiswitch need to function. They told me it would pass it.


So, you're going to believe them, and not your own hand's-on experience? I know you don't know me, so I can't expect you to take my word for it, but I have a bit of experience in this area, running a company that does residential and commercial installs for both DirecTV and Dish Network for 7 years...


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Well, don't take it personally. I'm sure you're experienced.

And I'm not in the installation business. Actiontec doesn't fill me with confidence.

But noone's offered a clear technical reason why HPNA is incompatible.

Assume that adapter can pass the DC. There must be some other reason why it's not working with my setup.

I don't want to pay more on a monthly basis for directv's multiroom viewing solution. The DECA solution can't be purchased from anyone other than them
right now.

Bob


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

rlowell said:


> Well, don't take it personally. I'm sure you're experienced.
> 
> And I'm not in the installation business. Actiontec doesn't fill me with confidence.
> 
> ...


1. If you don't want to pay the monthly charge, why do you need to have internet to the H21? Non-DVR receivers can't do VOD, so that really only leaves TVapps. (Even if you use your own networking, MRV is still $3 a month.)

2. DECA modules and SWM multiswitches can be purchased from online retailers. (Solid Signal is one, but I believe there are others.) Of course, since you would need both SWM and DECA, DirecTV might be more economical.)


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

rlowell said:


> I don't want to pay more on a monthly basis for directv's multiroom viewing solution. The DECA solution can't be purchased from anyone other than them
> right now.
> 
> Bob


You can certainly purchase the parts to convert to SWM & DECA from other retailers (including Ebay), and it's not necessary to pay for MRV to use them. I'd need to know your specific setup (including receiver types) to know exactly what to suggest, but I'd bet transitioning to SWM/DECA will be cheaper than what you've already paid to Actiontec...


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

OK. Let me explain what I'm looking for and why..

My networking interface under my bigscreen TV needs to have at least two (but as many as four) ports of 10/100 ethernet. And it needs to do it without adding a switch and/or wall wart outside what the network adapter needs.

The Actiontec adapter gives me two in a compact adapter. That's attractive. If HPNA works for me, I'll eventually swap out one of the Actiontec adapters and put in a 2Wire residential gateway (what AT&T U-Verse users have) and turn off the routing and modem functions to give me four ports.

You guys say Multi-room viewing is only $3 more per month. That's only true if you already have DVR service with directv. I don't.

I have ReplayTVs up and downstairs. And I've had multi-room viewing with them (standard def only) for about five years. Other than not being able to record HD and play it back as HD, these DVRs have worked wonderfully with directv. The network interface at the downstairs bigscreen was PowerlineAV 200- fast enough for streaming the standard def material between the replays and my dvarchive server.

The reason I want to stay with H21 is because I'm building an HTPC that will among other things be my subscription-free, drm-free hd dvr for directv. I need component video to make this work. That goes away on the newer STBs.

Now you guys say I can buy the DECA adapter and SWM on eBay or somewhere else (that's not directv) and install them to give myself this networking interface over the RG6. That's interesting...

I can (and will) return the actiontec adapters in a few more days if I can't get them to work. I've dropped $150 on them. I'll be reimbursed. I don't mind spending a bit more than that to properly network my house.

Based on what I've described here (I've probably bored most of you), what would you suggest I buy/install?

Bob


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

I have two receivers: an H21 and a D11.

I have two dishes: an LNB 5 slimline and the international dish.

I have a multi-switch. But it's not the SWM.


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

I suspect the HPNA device will not pass DC is the reason DTV will not work. If you have a voltmeter connect the HPNA device to the SAT IN on the receiver then measure the voltage between center conductor and shield on the 'output' of the device.

There may be a way to get this to work if you have two 2-way splitters with power-pass on at least one path. In the wiring cabinet connect the power-pass path in lieu of the barrel connector (common port toward the receiver) and the HPNA to the remaining port. At the receiver the power-pass port would connect between the incoming coax and the receiver (common port toward the antenna) and connect the HPNA to the remaining port. If there is no interference between the used spectrums of HPNA and DTV, then this connection may work.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

rlowell said:


> I have two receivers: an H21 and a D11.
> 
> I have two dishes: an LNB 5 slimline and the international dish.
> 
> I have a multi-switch. But it's not the SWM.


What you'd need to utilize a DECA solution:

SWM8
SWM8 PI
Band stop filter (for SWM8)
2 DECA dongles
1 DECA PI
green label splitter (2-way to introduce the DECA not attached to the H21)

The installation of the above is pretty straightforward and you can likely find a "kit" on ebay for between $75 and $100. DECA is obviously not intended for your situation, but unlike your MOCA solution the above will "just work." The other solution (and the correct one) would be to run an ethernet line (regardless of how difficult it may be.) Good luck!


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Eakes:

Thanks for that idea. I'm heading out now. But I will get my DVM out this weekend and look for the 13V/18V DC on the coax center conductor on the upstream end of the HPNA adapter.

That's easy (for me) to do.

If the problem here is only that DC isn't getting passed, then maybe we can fix this with a splitter or two.

Thanks


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Hey, my wife was still getting ready to go. So I got out the DVM.

I see (in the unconnected coax coming up from my H21) like 18.25V on the inner connductor.

Once I connect the HPNA adapter to it and measure (with a resistor lead inserted in the hole of the f connector on the other side to give my DVM probe contact) the voltage with repsect to the outer contact on the other side, I get 0V.

Well, sorry for all the pushback at the beginning of this thread. It's weird that on amazon and other places, they say this adapter is "compatible" with satellite. Maybe they're just looking at the modulated carrier frequencies not colliding. But satellite to me has always had that DC bias that the set top pushes up. This will never work.

I'd like to try using a splitter to re-inject 18VDC. Is there one around you know of that I should try???

Bob


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

You will need two 2-way splitters, power-passing one side. I have seen them a number of places locally (even Wal-Mart). Of course, your best price will be on-line at places like SolidSignal or SatPro.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

That won't work because 18 volts is used for even transponders and odd transponders use 13v (it switches polarization inside the LNB). You also need to pass a 22 kHz tone for 103, 110 and 119.


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

OK, Bob.

Good.

But is it safe to say that if I meter 18V on the cable when disconnected and without changing the channel on the STB I insert this adapter and injecting 18V over one of the splitter ports, I shouldn't have anything to worry about?

Such an experiment would prove:

That the Actiontec HCB1000 is really only blocking very low frequencies (DC and somewhere below 22KHz).


What is it that I can do as a user to get the STB to drive 13VDC on the coax?

Do I have to select channel that goes to one of those dishes you mentioned?

Bob


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

OK. I don't know much about this..

Would I be hooking the HPNA adapter on one of the OUT ports 
and an 18VDC source on the other (the port that says "Power Passing")?

Would the switch below work?

http://www.satpro.tv/2-waysplitter1powerpassing.aspx

'Seems like one port needs to pass anything from 22 KHz to 1.2 GHz (or whatever the top end is for directv) and DC on the other.

The other confusing thing is that the OUT ports are inputs to a certain degree. Maybe the splitter's bi-directional..

Bob


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

The 13 and 18 volt 'signals' as well as the 22 khz tone (or its absence) is output by the receiver depending on which channel has been requested. There should be no problem getting these signals through the splitter arrangement I outlined previously.

The splitter you linked to is exactly what you need (x2).

When you have configured the wiring the two 'input' ports will be 'looking' at each other. The coax from the DTV antenna will connect to the power-pass 'out' port of the first splitter. The coax going to the family room will connect to the 'in' port. In the family room the 'in' port of the second splitter will be connected to the coax coming from the wall. The 'out' port of the power-pass side will connect to the b-band converter. At this point check that the DTV receiver in the family room is working.

If it is working connect the HPNA devices to the two vacant 'out' ports on the splitters. Check that the ethernet ports work and again verify that DTV functions in the family room.

Potential problems are: The splitters are too lossy and DTV will not work (not likely) or the HPNA and DTV signals interfere (maybe).


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Eakes:

Thanks for all the good advice.

I know that if I get everything working I'll have two splitters on the line and two HPNA adapters.

But for the first experiment, I just want to put the upstairs one inline. That only requires a single splitter, right?

I just want to confirm that I can get the directv signal through there without changing channels.

Once I get that working, then I'll have to think about how to drive a switchable amount of DC into the splitter. This might take some design work.

So for the splitter in the diagram, how would I hook things up with just the single HPNA adapter?

Bob


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

Don't have to design anything to get DC through the splitter - the internal power-pass does that.

For one splitter: in the upstairs wiring closet remove the barrel connector in the cable going to the family room. Connect the coax coming from the direction of the antenna to the power-pass 'out' port. Connect the coax going toward the family room to the 'in' port. The HPNA device connects to the remaining 'out' port of the splitter. The HPNA device has two Type F connectors, you will only use one of them as it will not be connected in-line with the coax. The splitters acts as an on-ramp, as it were, to get the HPNA signal onto the coax without the main coax passing through the HPNA.

At this point the DTV receiver in the family room should be working normally.


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Eakes:

Thank you. Please confirm that my drawing (attached) is the correct interpretation of your instructions.

Also will the IN to Power Passing Out port signal path pass:

1. The switchable (13V/18V) DC from the settop box with attenuation so low that the LNBs will still be able to power from it?

2. 22 KHz ac waverform that the settop sends up?

Bob


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

Yes, that's the way it works. Schematically this is the same as using diplexers in the early days to share an external antenna with the DTV signal. Due to the extended bandwidth DTV systems now use the old diplexers no longer work as the filters in the diplexers wipe out some of that extended bandwidth. Here, we are using splitters to accomplish the task of getting the two signals on the same coax.

It remains to be seen if the HPNA signal and the DTV signal can co-exist on the same coax, but DC and the tone will be passed through the splitter either from 'in' to 'out' or 'out' to 'in'.


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Eakes:

OK. Thanks for the confirmation. I'll go try and find a splitter today at Fry's and try this.

By the way, I understand that this may not work. It's experimental.

If this experiment works, I'll need to work out with you the splitter connection for the downstream (under the big screen) end of this cable.

I think you'd agree (or maybe you would not) that if HPNA is compatible (as long as you pass all the low frequency stuff up from the STB) that maybe this will be simpler DIY networking setup than DECA that also gives one more options (2-4 ethernet ports) from less devices. 

At least that's my rose colored glasses view of it.

Bob


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

Yes, Fry's has the necessary splitters - one nice thing about Fry's, you can always take them back if it doesn't work!


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

I have to ask why throw so much money at this when you can get wireless N for about $30? My MRV is flawless over wireless. I also have a netflix/pandora/cinema now streaming box on the same wireless bridge, flawless as well.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I still don't understand why you want to network your H21 if you don't have a DVR or MRV. Is it for media share? If so, you'll be sorely disappointed in the quality. Stick with the HTPC for that sort of thing.


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

'Glad wireless n works for. I've tried it. 'Doesn't work for me.


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Eakes:

I picked up a Phillips splitter (both ports power passing; 'hope this isn't a problem) yesterday.

I hooked up the IN and the OUT port that goes to the STB as you'd drawn. Satellite TV's working fine.

I need to go back to Fry's and pick up like a 2" RG6 cable, as I need a female-female connector to go between the splitter's other OUT port and the Actiontec adapter.

Bob


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

While you are there get another splitter in addition to the coax you need so you can complete the project!


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

Eakes:

I haven't bought the second splitter yet. My day job has been overly demanding.

I did have to buy the shortest piece of RG6 I could find to use as a gender changer to connect the (male) f connectors on the hpna adaptper and the splitter.

Anyway, I finally added the HPNA adapter to the upstairs splitter's OUT port.

The Directv signal is not interrupted. I'm watching tv on the bigscreen downstairs as I write this post.

I'll get the second splitter at Fry's this afternoon and wire it in under the bigscreen tomorrow morning early.



Quick question, Eakes...

The H21 has a "B Band Converter" before the coax feed goes into the H21.

I shouldn't put my splitter in between the H21 and the converter, should I?

I should put it (I think) upstream of that.

Bob


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

Leave the b-band converter attached to the receiver. Connect the splitter upstream (toward the antenna) from the converter.

Darn those day jobs getting in the way of ones projects!!


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## rlowell (Aug 28, 2010)

To Eakes and everyone in this thread, I want to say big thanks for the out of the box thinking.

I'm watching directv on my bigscreen downstairs right now. And I've got Internet coming down the same caox with it.

In the course of adding the two splitters, I weakened my directv signal. Some channels (almost all spanish language channel above 400) give me "searching for satellite). MSNBC is unreachable (not that I watch it much).

Even when I only had one splitter in the coax signal path betw. my antennae and the STB, there were one or two channels that stopped working. But the number went up quite a bit with the second splitter in line.

I figured this COULD maybe be fixed. I've used 3' RGB cables as gender changers to get mail f connectors connected with other mail f connectors. I'm not sure how much signal loss this gives me.

After streaming a bit from my upstairs server down to the ReplayTV dvr under the bigsreen, I stopped that and ran netperf on the other RJ-45 (remember the HPNA adapter gives you two). 

I only got 24.5 Mbit/second. I repeated it several times. I was streaming from my upstairs server (across a 10/100 switch next to the upstairs HPNA adapter in my wiring closet).

This isn't acceptable. I need 40 Mbits (ripped Blu-Ray other than Avatar needs this) per second. And I get 70 when I stream between any two devices connected to other ports of the switch.

So I'm boxing things up and asking for refunds.

Anyway, if this data can be helpful to someone in the future, I hope it is. The Actiontec adapters modulate on 12-28 Mhz on the coax. And this is not causing directv any problems, other than what the splitters cause. I'm using the old style (not the SWM) multiswitch.

Bob


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## eakes (Sep 22, 2007)

Well, not everything we try works! It appears HPNA would not have been a solution for your application even without the problems the extra loss caused DTV. Let us know your final solution when you get there. 

Good luck!


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## extide (May 30, 2009)

Just use SWiM and DECA. DECA adapters are just layer 2 ethernet bridges. You can have some boxes on deca and some on ethernet.

I have:
HR21 -> direct ethernet to switch
HR24 -> using built in deca over coax
H24 -> using direct ethernet to switch

Then I have a deca unit connected behind the HR21 but the ethernet of it is plugged into my switch, NOT the HR21 (also remember that the HR21 is also plugged into the switch.)
This bridges my DECA cloud to my ethernet, much like an ICK but I am still using the receiver to power the DECA instead of a separate power injector.

Then I am using reserved DHCP addresses for all the boxes (actually everything at my house uses reserved DHCP, because I like everything always having the same IP and I don't want to manually set anything on a machine)

Works perfectly. Infact I can switch any of the boxes between the deca cloud and ethernet and they work just the same either way. I think the adapters are pretty cool, you can theoretically do some pretty cool stuff with them, even use them to network computers in your house.


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