# OTA Guide Data and Local Package Subscription - YOU MUST SUBSCRIBE



## Mark Lamutt

Received from a contact - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.

I'd appreciate all of the negative feedback that this is going to cause to be posted in this thread, so that it's all in one place for them to see.


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## Bradtothebone

I'd be happy to kick this off! What in the world are they thinking?

If I can get all my locals OTA in uncompressed digital glory, why in the world would I want to sub to the horrible, compressed, Dish locals? This has to be one of the worst PR moves of all time!

Brad


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## dishbacker

Why even integrate the OTA-HD channels into the guide / receiver if you can't use it instead of the dish compressed channels? Really a disgrace.

Is this specific to the 921, or is it the same on the 811 as well?


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## JimTsillas

Mark Lamutt said:


> Officially from Dish - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.
> 
> I'd appreciate all of the negative feedback that this is going to cause to be posted in this thread, so that it's all in one place for them to see.


I'm very disappointed with Dish. I feel misled. This was not made clear to me in any of the Charlie Chats or other information channels. To compound my disappointment, since I am unable to obtain a waiver, I cannot subscribe to locals EVEN IF I WANTED TO (which I do not). For a little while I thought Dish had finally come up with a reasonable response to Comcast. Now I know I was wrong.


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## WildBill

This is a BUMMER and a half, especially since we were lead to believe by both CSRs and pre-release comments on this board that this would NOT be required. 

In my case, I get all the locals I want OTA in HD. There is no need for LIL. Plus, I would have to install a super dish to get them, and I've got no good place to put one.

Question: Can you subscribe to locals and get the guide data without having to install the super dish??


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## DVDDAD

I happen to subscribe to the locals for the other receivers in the house, but this isn't right! I hope this is only temporary as for those of you that can get the locals OTA for free why would you pay for something you aren't EVER going to tune to? Come on DISH, get with it, treat your good customers right!


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## BFG

Wow, once again 921 is getting screwed, because this is not the case with the 811. When the 811 added guide data people without subbed locals, had them added in the guide with red. And people who were getting channels ota in another market had those channels added in red as well.


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## TBarclay

I subscribe to my locals and I can't get a single digital station OTA but I still think this is a ridiculous policy. For that matter, if Dish were smart (?!?!!!), they would put the local listings on the guide in red for everyone eligible who doesn't subscribe so they could see what they're missing!


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## ctdish

This is right up there with the 1394 port "promise". My 921 is working after being dead for a week, when it down loaded 211 last night I had hopes of getting a guide. I am disappointed again. The HD locals I receive are mostly from Providence, RI which are not available from Dish as far as I know. Is this a software problem or is Dish just greedy? John


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## glenn z

This truly sucks. Try to squeeze an additional $5 month out of people that are buying your high-end receiver. Not smart. Dish is looking more and more like the 'cable pig' than Comcast. :nono2:   :nono2:


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## TonyB

Bummer,
If dish insists on a subscription to locals to get guide data then they should commit to it being correct. if I pay for locals then I expect all sub channels to have guide data - and until it does, DISH should not charge me for locals.


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## mwsmith2

Amazing.

Unbelieveable.

Stupid.

Deceitful.

And many more I can think of. Why is it that it's ok for the 811 to get the local EPG without a subscription, but buyers of a higher-end receiver get screwed? :nono2: Absolutely a stunningly stupid move, *ESPECIALLY WHEN IT WAS STATED THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE A SUBSCRIBER TO GET THE EPG INFO!*

We all know that they can do it, because the 811 owners can get it without a subscription!

Gaaaaah! @#$#$%@#$%%$ing idiots!

I guess this is their way of trying to get more money out of the subscribers. Why oh why on God's green earth would I want to subscribe and pay $5.99/mo for 15 channels, when I can get *TWENTY THREE DIGITAL CHANNELS FOR FREE!* There is no way I'm going to subscribe to locals when I can already get them perfectly. Pretty much all this is going to do is piss people off.

absolutely stunned,
Michael


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## TonyB

What I find amazing is that Dish just get everybody happy with the latest s/w. Then in one simple move, they lost the goodwill again. 
New software (good) = No program guide (bad)

Come on Dish. At least treat 921 owners as well as 811 owners. What will you do next? Take away the free 811 program guides?


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## n0qcu

This pisses me off to the point that instead of getting my locals from dish when they become avaiable later this month I am cosidering getting cable for the locals even tho it would be about $15 a month.


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## BobaBird

This is a chance for them to claim they provide _something_ of value for the DVR fee they're collecting, by making it easier to program the 921 to do one of the main things it's designed to do.


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## BFG

DVR fee's will always be a scam in my book. You should never have to pay a monthly fee for something the box you paid for is doing. The only justified fee would be for something like interactive services that the satellite company would actually be providing


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## David K

What about the people like myself that subscribe to the Dish locals and pay the $5.99, But still can't get guide data because the Dish locals I subscribe to are out of Cinci, and my OTA locals are out of Dayton which I cannot subscribe to through Dish because of my zip. I'm paying the price and still can't get guide data. What a rip off. Stupid decision Dish!!! Ridiculous!!!


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## BFG

once again that's something else the 811 can do and the 921 cannot


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## David K

Cable is now offering HD DVR in my area, the switch almost seems imminent at this point. I might be able to get $20 for my 921 on e-bay.


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## Skates

Seems to me that if you add up the DVR fee, plus the need to pay an additional fee for guide info, that changes the game somewhat.

I think they have a name for a device like that - they call it "TIVO"


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## glenn z

Even if they do realize this is a mistake we're probably looking at 6 months before they would release an update to correct it. Big mistake. What are 921's going for on Ebay now? Comcast offers the HD DVR in my city and I will seriously consider moving if I can recoup a significant portion of the $549 I paid for a useless HD DVR.


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## TonyB

Everybody likes a winner!
Back in '97 (seems like centuries ago) I signed up for Dish. They were the leaders back then. Recently I read that Murdoch (owns Direct**) planned to outspend Charlie in 05 for total Satellite dominance. Seems to me that Dish is a poor cousin now. With tricks like this one - having to buy a service just to get guiide data, maybe Direct** is worth looking at again. My son switched last year, so I can get an easy comparison. One thing that they can do is network the DVR (ie. TIVO) to the PC and the internet. All music for the house resides either over the net or on hard drive. Man, is it impressive to see what TIVO can do.

Not that this is pertinent to OTA guide, but its capability like this that is the competiition for Dish and what it can get away with.


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## mwgiii

Wow 

Dish, that is the way to stick it to your "high-end customers".

1st a DVR "fee"
Now a locals "fee"

From someone who gives you around $120 per month, you have just given me a reason to look at other alternatives.

Stupid, short-sighted move on your part.


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## 1074j

I was actually felt physically stunned to see this requirement. I have never been angrier at Dish. Time to start looking at cable again, and DirectTV. If they can supply something similar, I'm through with Dish. I've been a subscriber since the 1000 receiver too, however long ago that was. I can't believe this.


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## pwrtrader

OMG!!! Dear DishNetwork.....The ONLY reason I purchased the 921 was for OTA HD recording, and while I guess that even without Guide Data I can do this by setting manual timers, kind of a lame solution in my book. Especially for a box I paid $500 for. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I paid $1000. 

I'm already paying you a monthly fee for just having a dvr and data guide info is available for free all over the place (ala titantv etc.) Not to mention the 811's ability to receive OTA guide data....makes absolutely no sense at all.

I've been telling everyone I know to go out to COSTCO and buy one of these 921's quick but without Guide Data my shiny new 921 is going right back to the store. When my contract is up in May, I'll be looking to Charter for HD DVR services.

Thanks

eric


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## DonLandis

_sorry- posted in the other thread before seeing this one---_

_""Officially from Dish - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.""_

That's the bad news. For me it's kind of good news as it adds one more nail in the coffin for my account with DishNetwork. In other words, They keep adding one irritation after another and soon, I may no longer be a customer. The decision keeps getting easier.

If PSIP is to work the way it was intended, it would be triggering the info off the signal from the station, not the way E* is apparently doing it which, also is going to be quite inaccurate. The plan to pull the data from the analog channel media service after it is filtered through Dish's LIL system is just a bad decision all the way around since eventually those channels will be gone. While currently, the locals are still gearing up for program data on their digital channels via PSIP, it is a work in current process now. Two of our local stations, CBS and FOX affiliates are updating their equipment to add this just this week. The engineer tells me that this will soon be a license requirement so all will need to add this info just as they were required to add the channel call sign and time tables last August.

Mark- My rant is primarily for those who are actually caught with no alternative. The policy and technical plan on this stinks. For me, I have no problem with moving on to D* for my primary provider next year. I'm truly sorry for those who are now forced to pay yet another fee for a feature supplied by others free.
__________________


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## jsanders

THESE BLASTED JERKS! WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE THEY THINKING! 

I don't intend to be passive about this! They screwed with us long enough! They gave us a half baked guide data solution in first place, now they want to charge us for it?

Come on, THIS IS A BLASTED RIPOFF!!!!!!!! IF they want to charge us for guide info, DON"T CHARGE US FULL PRICE! That is the ripoff part! CHARGE FULL PRICE TO THOSE THAT USE LOCALS, DON'T CHARGE FULL PRICE FOR *JUST* GUIDE DATA! BETTER YET, TAKE NOTICE OF THE FREE GUIDE DATA THE COMPETITION ALLOWS. GUIDE DATA COMES FREE FROM PSIP, BUT THEY DON'T LET US SEE THAT. 

ESSENTIALLY THEY ARE CHARGING FOR SOMETHING THAT COMES FREE OVER THE AIR!

I SMELL "LAWSUIT!"

Scott brought dish to their knees before, maybe it is time for him to "get their attention" again!


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## Guest

I'll carry over my post from the other thresd.

Then why...

does the 811 have guide data even though locals aren't subscribed to?

do we pay a $5/month DVR fee if quide data isn't included?

I can say this is a crock of crap.


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## Guest

Originally Posted by glenn z
Ditto your post. This pisses me off. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is one of those things that will fester with me, and then when I consider my options for TV services in the future this will play a part in my descision making. I know when I'm being nickled and dimed and I don't much care for it. I don't mind paying for what I want, but this 'carrot on a stick' bit is too much.


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## mwgiii

Send e-mail to [email protected]


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## TonyB

I just sent Charlie Ergen an email complaint. I suggest we all do that - at the very least, he will feel some irritation when he makes dumb decisions.


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## mwsmith2

I sent mine too. Nothing like the feeling of getting screwed in the morning =/

Michael


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## xsailor

xsailor said:


> OK Mark, after taking a deep breath ... I guess since I really don't have Los Angeles locals but now have "West Coast Feed" channels (i.e. ABC-W, CBS-W etc.) that the 921 does NOT recognize the info on the 8000's channels and remaps to my OTA. In other words still no OTA channel info.





Mark Lamutt said:


> Everyone, please relax here for a moment, sit back and take a deep breath. I'm working on getting the answers to all of your questions, so please take it easy for a little while here. I'm sure that Dish never considered that some would be pulling digital OTAs from other DMAs. And I don't know yet if it was intentional that you have to be subbed to locals to get the guide data. You'll know just as soon as I do.


I firmly believe the "need to subscribe to locals to get OTA guide data" is simply a software fix and will be dealt with in the next update (whenever that will be). I cannot find the answer to neighboring DMAs. Is this "problem" being looked into?


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## xsailor

mwgiii said:


> My e-mail keep bouncing back from dish.


Because the actual email address is:

*direct email addresses deleted. You should be able to come up with them on your own, but no other email address other than [email protected] is to be posted in this thread.*


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## TonyB

Thanks, I just copied the same email and sent it to both at these email addresses


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## Dsquared

:nono2: :nono2:   :nono: :nono: Just purchased a 921 on the $549 deal two weeks ago. Unit works well. However, I just encouraged a friend to switch to our local Comcast. There are some better HD options there now and a DVR in the future. In two years I probably will be there also. In the meantime I can look at my 811 for local channel info or go to TitanTV.com for local info. It's not that hard to program locals to record on the 921 although not as easy NBR. But pay extra to get a guide for channels we already receive when we have to pay a DVR fee also??? What are they thinking!!??

Dish Network (Charlie and his stooges) provide a great example of how to alienate the best paying high-end customers. But we are slowly getting more options than Dish . . . then Goodby Charlie!!!


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## Guest

Just sent this...



> To [email protected], etc
> 
> I am writing to express my displeasure with Dish's decision to require me to subscribe to your Local Channel Package in order to receive the OTA program information on my 921. I am/was getting this same information in my 811's guide. Just what am I paying the $5 DVR fee for if I can't get this data without paying an additional amount? It is free (included) on the 811!!!
> 
> I have been with Dish since 1997-98, and this is the first issue that really had me mad and wondering "What the hell is Dish thinking?" I have put up with owning some equipment (6000, 811 and now 921) that hasn't had the best track record in terms of 'ease of use'. I figure some oversight in design can be forgiven, even after taking a year to get the software working somewhere near the required reliability that is should have had at launch.
> 
> But this is riding the edge of being too much.
> 
> Thank you,
> Gerry P


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## WildBill

Here's my email:

Dear Mr. Ergen:

I recently purchased a Dish 921 receiver on the basis of the new price reduction and the promise of OTA EPG listings 'coming with the next software update'. I also had to do an expensive upgrade of my satellite equipment to accommodate the 921.

I now find out that to get the OTA guide data I have to pay a subscription fee for locals (that I get OTA) and install a SuperDish antenna! I pay over $100/mo for Dish service as it is, which includes a DVR fee that is supposed be for the EPG. The 811 gets OTA guide info without a subscription requirement. What kind of a bait and switch scam are you pulling? There are many others who feel the same disappointment and anger as I.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=36079

You are alienating your best customers with this move. In the event that this is the result of lazy programming, I urge you to announce immediately that the subscription requirement will removed as soon as possible. If this is a matter of policy, I would remind you that those most able to afford a high end system like the 921 are also the most able to afford the switch to another service.

Thank you.


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## scottchez

With Direct TV and the HD Tivo the guide data is at NO EXTRA cost.

Why would dish make you pay extra to get locals that you wont watch becuase you can get an OTA digital for free.


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## bbomar

Mark Lamutt said:


> The "supertech" was incorrect, unfortuately, until and unless your complaints are heard, and the decision to go this route is reversed. The info that I posted came straight from the 921 project lead at Eldon. This is what they were told to do.


I have satellite locals for two other receivers in the house so I get the
guide data. However, the decision by Dish to require satellite locals
to get OTA guide data is terrible. First, there should be a uniform
policy - not one where some receivers get free guide data (811) and others
(921) do not. I have been with Dish Network for seven years and their
customer relations has really gone down hill for the last couple. At
work I have customers, as many of us have, and to keep our
customers we try to give them a little extra so they feel good about
doing business with us. Free guide data would have been a way Dish
Network could have done that for us, at little or no cost to them.
Instead they try to squeeze every penny out of their high end
customers - the dish pig instead of the cable pig. At some point
loyal customers become customers just waiting to switch when
the opportunity is right. With D* putting up new satellites and
adding HD content next year, that time is probably not too far off.


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## paulcdavis

David K said:


> What about the people like myself that subscribe to the Dish locals and pay the $5.99, But still can't get guide data because the Dish locals I subscribe to are out of Cinci, and my OTA locals are out of Dayton which I cannot subscribe to through Dish because of my zip. I'm paying the price and still can't get guide data. What a rip off. Stupid decision Dish!!! Ridiculous!!!


I subscribe to Dish locals but can't get guide data because my dish locals are San Francisco but my OTA stations are from Sacramento. This needs to be fixed.


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## sf_user

I just bought a 921 at CostCo last night, and find this info in the morning!

This is an awful decision by Dish Networks. I've been a sub. since 2000, and living with the unreliable (but no added fees!) 7200 since then.

Dish should make local OTA digital channel's guide data available for free to all HDTV receivers, or at the very most include it in the $5 DVR fee they charge. (which I suspect will go away as R. Murdoch has announced his intention to remove the DVR free from Direct* as soon as next year.)

Of course, I'm bought from CostCo for this very reason! (return policy)


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## markcollins

Did you expect anything else besides lies from dish,I have personally had it with this Piece of ****! company.All we hear is lies lies lies from them.


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## TonyB

The actual cost is ZERO.
Reason:
Obviously they have the program data - they have it for the Sat channels.
What they just did was ONE line of code something like
If [Locals]="Y" then allow Program data

the program data being sent (obviously in the code at this time) already is there.

this fix CANNOT be any more complicated than that, done in 5 minutes. The rollout could happen by the next day. No testing needed.


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## jsanders

There is something weird going on here, as with everything with the 921.

Think about it for a moment.

The programmers didn't do a real OTA guide implementation, they just re-mapped locals. It is "better than nothing" as some put it, but not much because it doesn't cost you nothing.

What was dissapointing to me about this is that programming something like this isn't a large undertaking at all. But it took basically a WHOLE YEAR to get a half baked solution like this??? It just doesn't add up.

So, I ask myself, "why". Then I ask myself, "Which pointy haired boss made this decision??"

I see two pointy haired bosses to choose from. One is the project manager for the 921 project. The other pointy haired boss is someone higher up, like Charlie, or Jim DeFranco. If it is a higher level pointy haired boss, then that person is more like a Catbert, Evil HR director type. The blood sucker that wants to rape his customers. I don't think that is the motive though.

I think it is a combination of two pointy haired bosses. I think a higher up pointy haired boss told the project manager pointy haired boss something like, "I want an OTA guide by the end of the year for the 921, I don't care how you do it." I think the project manager responded with the ultimatum by throwing this rubbish together, not really thinking about the consequences.

I think this was a cluge because the 811 has the right implementation, not just a remap of analog channels, which will never work. If the 921 had been working on this in the same time frame as the 811, even if it was delayed, we would have seen something similar. I think the 811 team released their solution, and the 921 team hadn't even started, they were looking bad, and had to throw something together. Unfortunately, they didn't use the infrastructure the 811 uses, and the pointy haired boss chose the wrong path.

This leads me to think we need some answers. Which pointy haired boss made this decision? Is this half baked solution the permanent solution, or the stop gap that they could have done inside of two weeks back in January?

The level of incompetence is astonishing. Who made the decision to release the 921 when they did (it wasn't ready for market)? Who made the decision to outsource across the Atlantic where they don't even transmit 8vsb signals? Who made the decision to drop firewire? Who made the decision, after a year on the market, to just re-map analog locals and call it a digital OTA guide and charge $6.00/mo for it?? Does this person actually use a 921? Shouldn't this individual use the 921 as their PRIMARY, or ONLY receiver and suffer with us? Is this the same pointy haired boss that made all of these decisions? Who is the person that doesn't see that this individual should be fired?


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## bbriggs

Why not give 921 owners free LIL until they get OTA guide fixed?

My e-mail to Ergen and Defranco:

Sir,

I suspect you are aware by now that quite a number of 921 users are quite displeased that OTA guide information is still unavailable to customers without subscription to DISH locals after software release L211. This is both annoying and embarassing to me, as it should be for DISH. It appears that customers of DirectTV, Voom, and even Dish Network (811) are not required to subscribe to locals in order to receive guide information for OTA locals. It would not surprise me that DISH customers who have 921 receivers are among the highest-tier best customers DISH has, only increasing the embarassment.

While I am not in the loop, it appears that the above shortcomings of L211 were not intended to force 921 owners to subscribe to locals but were perhaps a technical problem with software. It appears that there is hope that a future software upgrade may remedy the situation.

I have a suggestion in the meantime: Offer current 921 owners LIL without charge temporarily until a software remedy is available. This would get most owners up and running right away. I have ABSOLUTELY no interest in receiving DISH locals, they offer me no value whatsoever. However, I REALLY want OTA guide information. I do not wish to pay Dish Network $5.99/month for guide information that 811, DirectTV, and VOOM owners get for free. Besides, 921 owners are probably your best customers and have suffered significantly from less than optimal performance this past year. Why not throw them a carrot and get these 921s working well right now? I like my 921, and I like Americas Everything Package, but DirectTV is more attractive than ever before.

Thank You.


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## TonyB

Does the 811 supply program guide for all the local sub channels? If so then why isn't the 921 using the same code?
Who owns the code? Is it Dish, or do they license it??? Did the same folks write both? 

Seems the only non embarrassing way for Dish to explain it is that its justa stopgap answer and they were focussed on other more important fixes. Even that though is a crock of **** since the 811 code
a) was written first
b) was fully tested
c) had been rolled out to customers.

The pointy haired project manager from overseas should be made to work 167 hours a week (one hour off per week for bathroom breaks) until it does EXACTLY what the 811 does. At least then Dish would be debugging/improving ONE code stream for the implementation, not TWO.

The response to this problem has been huge - wait until more folks get home from work and see this thread. I would be very surprised if Dish is not at this very moment scrambling to come up with a statement, trying to some some serious damage control


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## Bogney

Just want to add my name to the list of people who are "disappointed" in this requirement to buy locals that I will never watch in order to get guide data.


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## Michael P

:nono2: :nono:  

Give me a break! This has to be the all-time biggest SNAFU that Charlie has ever made. I hold Charlie accountable. He should know better. 

I hope he does the right thing by us and give us PSIP guide data. Nothing less will do. After all there are many stations and subchannels that E* does not carry LIL. We need that guide data too!

In my case there is a station that is not carried in the Cleveland LIL's that I can receive with FOUR - count 'em - FOUR subchannels. Two of these subchannels contian programming that E* had to remove form "EE" thanks to the Dominion suit. 

I repeat: NOTHING LESS THAN FULL PSIP GUIDE DATA WILL DO!


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## Mark Lamutt

Yeah, that would do me a hell of a lot of good, with one out of 8 stations in Denver broadcasting it...


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## glenn z

Personally I don't care how they get the info there. If they map from the LIL info then at least I'll have info that my wife can use to record. They better make some statement about this soon. I've sent an e-mail to them as I'm sure most of you have. Please post any reply you get.


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## bbriggs

Don Landis intimated above that PSIP guide data might be a licensing requirement soon (and we've become accustomed to DISH 'soon'). If this game is about extracting $$$ from customers, maybe PSIP is our only hope (besides other programming suppliers).


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## Mike D-CO5

This reminds me of the uproar over Dish deciding to add dvr fees for the first time. Another great decision by Dish. They say they are the lowcost leader but what they do is add all these little fees here and there in order to suck you dry . They are nothing but the satellite Cable pig.

I am totally disapointed in this ota guide information. It should work on the PSIP guide data. Afterall they can easily access this off of the ota channels themselves. They transmit their own channel mapping and station information so this wouldn't be that big of a jump. Why have the 811 get this information but not the 921 dvrs? This is nothing but greed on the part of Dish. Trying to come up with another fee by making people sub to dish locals in order to get the ota guide information to work. 

Dish has the most inconsistent receivers out there. A different team for every receiver and some not even in this country with the direct view of the satellites in the sky. Can't we have some consistentcy , please!! My only hope is that the new mpeg4 receivers will be a totally new concept that will work right from the start... Wait a minute I forgot, this is Dishnetwork. Forget about it!! There is no hope.


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## Jim_R

Like others who have posted above, I subscribe to locals for other receivers, so would not cancel my 5.99 monthly local subscription. Still, being forced to carry locals for guide data that should be covered in the already high DVR feed, is truely the last straw. If this policy does not change, word of mouth rather than "look how cool my 921 is" will be "subscribing to Dish Network is the worst mistake you can make, believe me I know." When the folks with all the toys start sharing that opinion, look out.


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## RVRambler

Mark Lamutt said:


> Officially from Dish - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.
> 
> I'd appreciate all of the negative feedback that this is going to cause to be posted in this thread, so that it's all in one place for them to see.


I am 100% mobile, (thus the RV in my Userid) so How about us who have the East-West coast Nets? I get no OTA info with 211!

SHould I call to change my address to the local address I am at, every time? THat's every couple of weeks or more often!
(don't like talking to CSRs/CTRs enough for that!)


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## smooth28la

You guys are totally forgetting the FIREWIRE fiasco exactly a year ago when people bought the 921 for the SOLE purpose of getting to use the firewire feature.. and now it's history as well!


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## glenn z

:eek2: You're right. I guess a statement needs to be made if they don't fix this. I'll start by downgrading my programming and start planning a switch. To me this seems a little worse because they're trying to squeeze extra money out of you to get something that should be free (and is free from their competitors). Only way to make them stop doing this is to cancel which I plan to do if they don't change it. :nono2:



smooth28la said:


> You guys are totally forgetting the FIREWIRE fiasco exactly a year ago when people bought the 921 for the SOLE purpose of getting to use the firewire feature.. and now it's history as well!


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## schek

Wow. I just ordered my Everything package and a 921 yesterday (to be installed next week). When I read about the new release, most people seemed very pleased. Now I'm reading a great many angry notes about the OTA guide.

I am supposed to get local channels so I'm not sure what this all means as far as recording. Will this make it difficult to record OTA material?


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## Mark Lamutt

Users are upset because Dish is forcing them to pay for the local channel package in order to get the local channel guide data. You're getting local channels, so you should get the local channel guide data.


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## glenn z

It will basically be like using an old school VCR. Set the time to record, set the channel, etc. Sucks.



schek said:


> Wow. I just ordered my Everything package and a 921 yesterday (to be installed next week). When I read about the new release, most people seemed very pleased. Now I'm reading a great many angry notes about the OTA guide.
> 
> I am supposed to get local channels so I'm not sure what this all means as far as recording. Will this make it difficult to record OTA material?


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## Alan Keith

I have been on the fence about which reciever to buy but I have finally made up my mind. After eight years with dish my new toy will be a HD-TIVO for Christmas this year. Dish is just too stupid to do business with any longer. I don't believe the 921 will ever work the way it is suppose to.


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## harlock328

Unacceptable, I shouldn't have to pay for this. HDTivo is looking better and better.


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## Michael P

I wonder if the VOOM box gets OTA guide data?


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## jsanders

Michael P said:


> I wonder if the VOOM box gets OTA guide data?


It does. It is not just an analog guide data masquerading as the digital guide data. It is an actual digital transmission guide data. It shows the sub channel programming as well.


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## Bismarck

We celebrated the arrival of L211 for a whole 24 hours before the b!tching started again, and for good reason. This seems so stupid on E*'s part, since they apparently could easily have implemented OTA guide data without tying it to the locals package.

They won't broadcast HD local programming in HD and the SD image quality of E*'s locals is barely even watchable. So, if you dump their crappy locals and use OTA to get HD and high-quality SD locals, they make you pay $5.99/mo. for guide data on a half dozen or so channels anyway? Gimme a break! This is just not the kind of "value-added" service we should have to pay for.

What's more confounding to me is the likely fact that most prospective purchasers have no idea what they're getting into and so won't be influenced one way or the other. What they've really done is just stick it to the loyal customers that already own the unit who've waited (patiently?) for OTA guide data.

Credit goes to jsanders, I think, whose #7 post on Mark's original L211 thread suggested the fix was in on this before most of us even knew what was going on.

[fist shaking in the air] Damn you E*, I almost loved you for a minute.


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## Michael P

Egads, Cablevision (VOOM) gets is but E* doesn't 

PISP is the only way to go.


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## UpOnTheMountain

Super bad decision for the long term.

They need to think about making us happy.

If we are happy, then we recommend our toys and their service to friends and family.

If we are angry (and this makes a lot of us angry), then we recommend friends and family to stay away.

Bad decision. period!


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## mraub

Is this stupid decision one that can be reversed with new software? How difficult would it be to change it?

MIKE


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## jsanders

mraub said:


> Is this stupid decision one that can be reversed with new software? How difficult would it be to change it?


A much better implementation for this is absolutely *FREE* on the 811. They can change it if they want to.


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## Kagato

I beleive voom gets it's data from Tribune like everyone else. The only thing I can think of is Dish is backed into a corner with the guide data in order to make it compatible with legacy gear, and is unwilling to give up transponder space to do another data feed that would actualy be able to handle all the data you need to do it like Mororola did with voom.


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## BarryO

Stupid? maybe. hey, they can charge money for whatever they like. I think the better word is "bizarre".

How to they justify charging this fee to users of their flagship product, but not charge for the same exact feature on their "entry-level" HD receiver? How does this make marketing sense; i.e., how do they explain this lack of "equal protection", especially when it's the customers that put up the bigger chunk of change up front are the ones that are being disadvantaged?

'sounds like the left hand at E* doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Or they forgot that the internet exists and 811 and 921 owners talk to each other.


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## Scott Greczkowski

You guys can write to Jim and Charlie and ***** and moan all you want. Truth is they don't care and you will NOT get a reply. This was echoed to me by a friend in their executive office.

I am told that this implementation of OTA Guide data was just a short cut and sometime in the future they would look into redoing it so the OTA data would match the 811 and would not require subscription to the locals package. However WHEN in the future this will happen is unknown. 

The sad part of this is nothing will come out of this except a bunch of finger pointing, and from what I hear so far they are blaming the guys who are easiest to blame and that is the 921 team at Eldon.

Too bad the software is good, I like it (except for a couple of 0 second recordings!) it's too bad that the Dish Network engeneering department and Dish Network Management have their heads stuck so far up their asses to have this happen AGAIN to 921 owners.


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## boylehome

There is the option MENU 4 - More -Off-Air Antenna Locals. This should work for OTA Locals PSIP data info. and when it is unchecked then the satellite guide lil info. should remap. Why is it even there?


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## boylehome

Scott Greczkowski said:


> You guys can write to Jim and Charlie and ***** and moan all you want. Truth is they don't care and you will NOT get a reply. This was echoed to me by a friend in their executive office.
> 
> I am told that this implementation of OTA Guide data was just a short cut and sometime in the future they would look into redoing it so the OTA data would match the 811 and would not require subscription to the locals package. However WHEN in the future this will happen is unknown.
> 
> The sad part of this is nothing will come out of this except a bunch of finger pointing, and from what I hear so far they are blaming the guys who are easiest to blame and that is the 921 team at Eldon.
> 
> Too bad the software is good, I like it (except for a couple of 0 second recordings!) it's too bad that the Dish Network engeneering department and Dish Network Management have their heads stuck so far up their asses to have this happen AGAIN to 921 owners.


I concur with your statement. Dish does want the money though. I think they need to make the OTA-OTA not OTA-LIL. I'm very happy with the upgrade minus the fact that you have to pay for the lil. I currently subscribe to lil and the quality is quite poor due to so much compression. The favored channels have much less compression and look great on the 921. I'm looking forward to their fix for OTA-OTA. My previous post in this thread questions the MENU radio button.


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## kzosat

Plain and simple BULL$H!T (please note the $ is for a reason!)


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## DonLandis

I have done my task today! 2 people were planning to buy the 921 for $549 until I told them what the deal is. Not now. Dish just lost two more customers today by me telling them what their plan is to extract money for fixing a bug in their software. These customers would be spending $80-90 per month and now their competition will be getting that business. Smart, Charlie, Real Smart!

You can't compete with the HDTIVO with an inferior receiver so you had to lower the price drastically. But why do you think you have a better linup to charge for locals guide info? You don't. Especially when your competitios make it available for free!


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## DonLandis

bbriggs- While the FCC may require all stations to supply PSIP guide data, it doesn't mean that the receivers will be required to interpret it. I said in another thread that the simplest way for E* to deal with this is to offer the Tribune Media service guides direct and then IF the PSIP is being offered via locals direct that takes priority. Unfortunately, that formula, while is what other competitors are doing it is not what E* did and their plans is presumed to be a cash cow. But not from me. 
The cash is like this, From those who already have locals they already have to pay, this is a bug fix. For those who didn't have E* LIL for $5.99 it is because they didn't need it. Now E* thinks we would bend over. Surprise, Not only will I not Pay the $5.99, I will be moving over to the competition. They stand to lose $100 per month revenue from me. MY account loss makes up for 9 of you who decides to cave and pay everytime Dish says pay up.


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## mraub

jsanders said:


> A much better implementation for this is absolutely *FREE* on the 811. They can change it if they want to.


I also own a 811, but it's been offline for a couple of months while I've been remodeling the HT room. When I get the 811 back online and it gets the local OTA data it sounds like the 921 is not going to use that data, even though it's coming through the same antenna system that feeds the 811. Is that correct? Anyone else with both a 811 and 921 and no locals that can check this?

MIKE


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## William_K_F

Why did I pay $1,000 for this receiver to get HD OTA if I have to subscribe to analog channels I'll never watch? Never was this requirement revealed during the purchase and marketing materials. It is a serious bug to require this.


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## David K

Mark Lamutt said:


> Users are upset because Dish is forcing them to pay for the local channel package in order to get the local channel guide data. You're getting local channels, so you should get the local channel guide data.


That is if the locals Dish gives you are from the same city you're getting the OTA


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## bbriggs

DonLandis said:


> bbriggs- While the FCC may require all stations to supply PSIP guide data, it doesn't mean that the receivers will be required to interpret it. I said in another thread that the simplest way for E* to deal with this is to offer the Tribune Media service guides direct and then IF the PSIP is being offered via locals direct that takes priority. Unfortunately, that formula, while is what other competitors are doing it is not what E* did and their plans is presumed to be a cash cow. But not from me.
> The cash is like this, From those who already have locals they already have to pay, this is a bug fix. For those who didn't have E* LIL for $5.99 it is because they didn't need it. Now E* thinks we would bend over. Surprise, Not only will I not Pay the $5.99, I will be moving over to the competition. They stand to lose $100 per month revenue from me. MY account loss makes up for 9 of you who decides to cave and pay everytime Dish says pay up.


I hear you loud and clear. I, like you, will not subscribe to LIL just to get a moderately useful guide. I was merely speculating that PSIP might be my last and only hope to stay with DISH, I didn't say I expected them to implement its interpretation. DISH has a slight price and programming edge for me, but LIL would blow the price edge. Hard for me to know what's best, the 921 does several things better than the competition, all it needed for me was OTA guide. 2 days ago things looked brighter. BTW - I doubt they would/will lose $100/month if you drop them. Programming isn't free.


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## jsanders

Unfortunately, Dish is a lot cheaper for me than the equivalent DirecTV would be. I dropped the AT60 and only do the HD pack, + HBO-HD, and CBS-HD. D* doesn't let you do that, and their basic pack is more expensive than E*. Even with an extra $6/mo, I am still a lot cheaper than D*

I really want to hear some more info from E* about this mess. I called them today, and the CSR told me they know there is a problem with the guide, and "they are working on it." The CSR didn't really get it, just reading from his notes. 

I want to know if they are really going to fix this or not. I'm really upset about this, but I would rather stay with the 921 if they remedy this situation, and do the guide the way the 811 does it with free guide data and sub-channel info, and do it SOON. I paid $1000 for my 921, and the money isn't lost until I try to sell it for $500. I paid a thousand dollars for a box, if I sell it than I am out $500 and no box to show for it.

I too, owned the HR10-250, and I thought the 921 was better suited for my needs when it got guide info. The 921 still has the potential to be a very slick machine if they just put a little more effort into it. Like Scott said, this last update was very solid, aside from this legendary snafu.

If, when the dust settles, they state that this guide info is as good as it gets (no more updates and an extra $6/mo), then I will probably switch back to the HR10-250 (D* HD Tivo).


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## bluegreg

two reason I bought the 921

1. free over the air high def
2. high def satelite feed

I am very dissapointed. I spend $600 a year and I am looking to reduce my bill not increase.

very misleading from charlie ergens.

I will never subscribe to locals for guide data.

greg


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## gboot

I also wanted to add my name to the chorus. I'm a long time Dish customer who purchased the 921 about 2 weeks ago in the anticipation of the OTA guide problems being resolved. I upgraded from the 6000 which had some basic guide information available for OTA.
I found the $5 DVR fee objectionable but rationalized it on getting a much better Guide including OTA channels. The 921 is advertised as having an integrated capability of receiving both Satellite and OTA including the guide. Now another fee just to get a few channels of OTA guide that is supposed to be there in the first place. You gotta be kidding.
I'm an optimist and don't believe the decision makers at Dish would knowingly authorize such a move. I'm guessing that this was one of those things that fell through the cracks between Dish and Eldon. 
This move probably runs afoul of some truth in advertising laws or FCC regulations. i.e lying about a products capabilities or double charging for the same service.
I'm going to write Charlie an email and hope they do the right thing, give it a couple of days and consider alternatives. I only need to pay a restocking fee for the 921.
Is anyone on this board connected with the FCC, I'd like to understand their take on this?


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## glenn z

Excellent point. It probably wouldn't hurt to contact the FCC and your state Attorney General office about false advertising. These politicos hate Dish anyway. They're looking for any reason to stick it to them and get some additional contributions from the bells and cable companies 



gboot said:


> I also wanted to add my name to the chorus. I'm a long time Dish customer who purchased the 921 about 2 weeks ago in the anticipation of the OTA guide problems being resolved. I upgraded from the 6000 which had some basic guide information available for OTA.
> I found the $5 DVR fee objectionable but rationalized it on getting a much better Guide including OTA channels. The 921 is advertised as having an integrated capability of receiving both Satellite and OTA including the guide. Now another fee just to get a few channels of OTA guide that is supposed to be there in the first place. You gotta be kidding.
> I'm an optimist and don't believe the decision makers at Dish would knowingly authorize such a move. I'm guessing that this was one of those things that fell through the cracks between Dish and Eldon.
> This move probably runs afoul of some truth in advertising laws or FCC regulations. i.e lying about a products capabilities or double charging for the same service.
> I'm going to write Charlie an email and hope they do the right thing, give it a couple of days and consider alternatives. I only need to pay a restocking fee for the 921.
> Is anyone on this board connected with the FCC, I'd like to understand their take on this?


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## JimTsillas

According to the CSR I spoke with, the issue with getting the local guide data is technical: unless you suscribe to the local channels, the receiver doesn't know where you are located and cannot map the guide data to OTA channel assignments. For example, 7-1 in Boston. MA is the NBC affiliate WBZ. The channel assignment for the local channel (for Boston would map WBZ to channel 7). Unless you subscribe, they don't know which channels to map.

If they decide to fix this it could be a big software change. Perhaps they can figure out a way for us to manually map out digitals to specific locals.

Having said this.. the CSR also said that his notes are telling him that any "Local Digital No Information" in the guide should be reported as a technical issue, so we should all call them and fill their support log with these. Maybe if enough of us whine they will relent and give us locals for free until they provide the right fix.


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## glenn z

JimTsillas said:


> According to the CSR I spoke with, the issue with getting the local guide data is technical: unless you suscribe to the local channels, the receiver doesn't know where you are located and cannot map the guide data to OTA channel assignments. For example, 7-1 in Boston. MA is the NBC affiliate WBZ. The channel assignment for the local channel (for Boston would map WBZ to channel 7). Unless you subscribe, they don't know which channels to map.


But then how would the 811 get the program information???? This sounds like BS to me. :nono:


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## kzosat

JimTsillas said:


> According to the CSR I spoke with, the issue with getting the local guide data is technical: unless you suscribe to the local channels, the receiver doesn't know where you are located and cannot map the guide data to OTA channel assignments. .


My Samsung OTA receiver gets the info and I didn't tell it where I live. It even pulls in the sub-channels correctly!


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## Bismarck

If what the CSR said is true about the receiver not knowing what guide data to map to the OTA channels without a local subscription, how do they do with the 811 receiver?


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## bbomar

JimTsillas said:


> According to the CSR I spoke with, the issue with getting the local guide data is technical: unless you suscribe to the local channels, the receiver doesn't know where you are located and cannot map the guide data to OTA channel assignments. For example, 7-1 in Boston. MA is the NBC affiliate WBZ. The channel assignment for the local channel (for Boston would map WBZ to channel 7). Unless you subscribe, they don't know which channels to map.
> 
> If they decide to fix this it could be a big software change. Perhaps they can figure out a way for us to manually map out digitals to specific locals.
> 
> Having said this.. the CSR also said that his notes are telling him that any "Local Digital No Information" in the guide should be reported as a technical issue, so we should all call them and fill their support log with these. Maybe if enough of us whine they will relent and give us locals for free until they provide the right fix.


It seems to me that the right way to do this, until PSIP data is reliable, 
would be to key the guide data to station call letter ID which is unique.
This would probably not solve the subchannel problem but would
allow the 921 to know which local's data to pull from the guide data
stream. Most of my locals were correctly identified by call letters
during the scan DTV, but some provision should be made to allow this
to be edited for those that are not. With this approach at least all
guide data provided by Dish would be accessable without the DMA
restrictions. I happen to be in the Nashville DMA based on zip code
but can also receive all OTA locals from the adjacent Huntsville, AL DMA
Folks with a zip code just down the road from me are in the
Huntsville DMA - some get Huntsville and not Nashville and some Nashville
and not Huntsville, some both, depending on terrain.


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## Bradtothebone

Someone else said that, with the 811, if you don't sub to locals they appear in red in the guide. The program info is then mapped from the red channels to the OTA locals. Why wouldn't this work with the 921, also?

Brad


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## jsanders

JimTsillas said:


> According to the CSR I spoke with, the issue with getting the local guide data is technical: unless you suscribe to the local channels, the receiver doesn't know where you are located and cannot map the guide data to OTA channel assignments. For example, 7-1 in Boston. MA is the NBC affiliate WBZ. The channel assignment for the local channel (for Boston would map WBZ to channel 7). Unless you subscribe, they don't know which channels to map.


That was a line with bait, hook, and sinker! :nono2: You DON'T need to know where the receiver is located. Why? You have the call letters! For you, WBZ in boston is a unique call letter that will not appear in any other location. By the way, the call letters have a little bit of geographic information. East coast stations start with a 'W', west coast ones have a 'K'. Regardless, the unique call letters are what you use to figure out the guide, not the location and channel number. That is just a stupid way to do it.

I asked them to give me free locals until they fixed the problem, and they refused to do it.


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## gboot

JimTsillas said:


> According to the CSR I spoke with, the issue with getting the local guide data is technical: unless you suscribe to the local channels, the receiver doesn't know where you are located and cannot map the guide data to OTA channel assignments. For example, 7-1 in Boston. MA is the NBC affiliate WBZ. The channel assignment for the local channel (for Boston would map WBZ to channel 7). Unless you subscribe, they don't know which channels to map.
> 
> If they decide to fix this it could be a big software change. Perhaps they can figure out a way for us to manually map out digitals to specific locals.
> 
> Having said this.. the CSR also said that his notes are telling him that any "Local Digital No Information" in the guide should be reported as a technical issue, so we should all call them and fill their support log with these. Maybe if enough of us whine they will relent and give us locals for free until they provide the right fix.


 I talked to Dish advanced support yesterday and got the same answer. I agree with you the more of us that call the more likely this will recieve attention and get resolved as a problem. It could be Dish is counting how people view this as a problem.


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## ats

Dish Network knows exactly where your receiver is (except those people that have "moved") based on the address and zip code on your account. They use that info to activate your locals. They also don't seem to have any problem "finding" your receiver when a sports blackout is in effect.


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## Michael P

boylehome said:


> There is the option MENU 4 - More -Off-Air Antenna Locals. This should work for OTA Locals PSIP data info. and when it is unchecked then the satellite guide lil info. should remap. Why is it even there?


I found out about this checkbox the day 2.11 was loaded to my 921. If this box is unchecked the ANALOG locals do not appear in your guide! (DUMB MOVE)

I called E* Tech Support when the analogs disappeared from my EPG. We found out together what this feature does.

NOTE: This feature has nothing to do with PSIP


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## Michael P

Bradtothebone said:


> Someone else said that, with the 811, if you don't sub to locals they appear in red in the guide. The program info is then mapped from the red channels to the OTA locals. Why wouldn't this work with the 921, also?
> 
> Brad


B I N G O ! (and I don't mean TV). So we all order that our locals get loaded (but not subbed) into our EPG's.

This still does not help those who receive OOM stations OTA.

This is still a bass-ackwards way of doing local EGP data. My Mother-in-law's analog Zenith has program guide info that is transmitted on the analog signals. This should be a no-brainer for E* and Eldon to implement.

I will repeat my mantra to Charlie: PSIP PSIP PSIP PSIP..........


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## TonyB

Michael P said:


> I found out about this checkbox the day 2.11 was loaded to my 921. If this box is unchecked the ANALOG locals do not appear in your guide! (DUMB MOVE)
> 
> I called E* Tech Support when the analogs disappeared from my EPG. We found out together what this feature does.
> 
> NOTE: This feature has nothing to do with PSIP


Michael,
If you want analog OTA locals, then do you need E* locals? If you want analog local OTA channel 4 for example to be at "4" on the program guide, then the E* channel 4 would be up at 8xxx. Unchecking the box is for people who want to use the E* local instead of the analog OTA. For me, since the E* transmission of a local channel is a compressed and therefore poorer PQ than OTA, there is no need to actaully ever view the E* local. Its only reason to live to to provide the current solution for program info.


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## Mark Lamutt

Michael P - give it a rest already. PSIP guide data may be a great option for you, but it's not for everyone today, and Dish knows it. A year or 5 years from now, maybe that will change when all stations are broadcasting the guide data in the PSIP stream, but until that happens, it's not a good solution for everyone.


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## markcollins

So Mark,Being a Beta tester - What are you told about this OTA issue,Temp and will be fixed so you need not subscribe to locals for OTA guide or is Dish really putting the screws to the their customers once again.This is a breaker for me on whether I cut my losses and move on to another form of programming.


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## moviegoerman

I thought I would be able to use the 921 for OTA after I cancelled my Dish network subscription. It's not even as good as a doorstop now...

I think I'm going to write David Letterman and see if he would like to show a 921 dropping from a very tall building! Anyone want to join in???


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## Mark Lamutt

I'm not being told anything at all about it at the moment. Keep in mind that they can't react as quickly as you can. And, it's only been 24 hours since the information was released to be passed to all of you. I'd give them a week or so to make a decision, but that's just me.


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## markcollins

JUST IN from dish 921 CSR supervision.Just had a long discussion with a CSR Sup. his answer to the OTA Guide data is why should we provide it to you if the locals aren't paying us to.He basically told me you have to pay the extortion of their local channels to get OTA guide.They aren't going to give their customers squat for free.


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## glenn z

Well, I'm checking out Comcast. $54.45 digital classic + $5.00 HD fee + $9.95 HD DVR. Comes out to about what I'm paying now. I just don't know what they charge for additional boxes. I know my Samsung HD receiver can pull the signal from the cable but I need something for my 2 SD sets. I guess the issue now is how much I can get for my Dish boxes.


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## moviegoerman

evyst said:


> Unbelievable!! First they make me wait months for the 921. Then it comes with a ton of bugs. Then they discount the unit so mine is worth half of what I paid for it. Then they add a $4.98 a month DVR charge, which incidentally, should include the cost of an OTA guide. Now they say I have to subscribe to my locals to get it. Why would you subscribe to your local channels if you spent the money for a unit with a built in OTA receiver.
> First time a class action suit is brought up, please contact me! I'll stick with "E" long enough to justify what I spent on the 921 and then its "adios been good to know ya".


I'm there with you! Anyone know a good attorney ready for a fight? Maybe we should create a poll and see who would be interested in a class action to recover the cost of purchasing the 921. Make Dish buy them back!


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## moviegoerman

Since Dish requires us to continue paying, I decided to pay even less. I've just called Dish and cancelled everything but my satellite locals and superstation channels and of course my adult XTSY channel (the only reason I'm still a subscriber). I use my 10-250 to watch most of my programming anyways (IT WORKS!). The 921 has been a backup third OTA tuner for $1000...

Current bill now stands at:

$8.99 - Satellite Locals + Supersation channels (to get guide info for OTA)
$27.99 - XTSY Channel (the only channel Dish has that I can't get on DirecTV that I want)
$5.00 - Access charge for not subscribing to any major package!
$4.98 - DVR charge for recording my OTA content! (VCR's are free plus I thought that's why I paid $1000)
$4.99 - Additional 721 PVR charge (but I don't really use this box anymore)
_________
$51.95 - Total Monthly bill!

The funny part was when I talked to the first agent she agreed when saying, "the 921 is so buggy and I wouldn't buy one either!". Then someone tapped into the line and disconnected us... Even some of their own employees will agree that it's a mess, but I'm sure not on the record.


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## glenn z

You know, the more I think about it I'm not sure why I am hesitant to switch. For some reason I'm loyal to this company that doesn't give a sheot about it's customers. It may go back to when I owned stock back in the 90's when they had 250k subs. Customer service was good back then.


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## Jason Kragt

I'm not sure if the argument is over whether the program information should be provided for free as much as it is over what qualifies as a minimum subscripton in order to receive this guide data. It makes sense to require some level of subscription in order for you to receive it. It would be wise of Dish to give this data to their top paying customers, regardless of whether or not they subscribe to locals.


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## glenn z

On the phone with Dish now to downgrade my programming from AT120 to AT60 and drop the HD package. Before the change I thought I'd talk to "Advanced Tech Team" about the OTA program info. She spent about 10 minutes researching to see if anybody else has called. She can't find it listed as a specific bug for the 211 s/w update. Hmmmm. Well, transfer me over to the programming people so I can stop giving so much money to this crap company until I switch to D* or Comcast.


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## jsanders

markcollins said:


> JUST IN from dish 921 CSR supervision.Just had a long discussion with a CSR Sup. his answer to the OTA Guide data is why should we provide it to you if the locals aren't paying us to.He basically told me you have to pay the extortion of their local channels to get OTA guide.They aren't going to give their customers squat for free.


Okay, that is interesting. He asked the question why though, right??

Maybe we need to all create a unified list, and then when we call in, we can tell him "why" Dish should provide the guide w/o charging for locals. If enough people called in to complain with a unified explanation, it might have more of an impact.

From going through this message board, I have five reasons compiled to start the list. If anyone wants to add to it, that will be great, we will end up with a more comprehensive list as time goes by.

Here is what we have mentioned so far:

1. The 811 receiver does a much better job at supplying digital over the air guide data, and they are not charged for the guide data service. They are not even charged a VOD fee.

2. The $5/mo VOD fee that we pay every month is supposed to cover the cost of the guide data. Why should we pay for something twice? If a user drops an SD package, AT60, AT120, AEP, Dish charges $5 for providing the satellite link to our houses. Doesn't this $5/mo VOD fee, the $5 included in the sd satellite packages cover this cost already? Doesn't that hidden expense already pay for the guide for 811 users? Are we being charged, once, twice, or three times for this guide data?? Is that even legal?

3. Over the air guide data is freely transmitted by terrestrial sources through the PSIP data stream. Why am I being charged for something that comes over the air, into my living room, for free? The FCC will soon require this to be an accurate transmission. It currently doesn't extend for nine days, but Dish blocks even this limited, free guide data. Why can't they do a free, limited guide, and charge for an extended guide in the event that they are so greedy they feel the need to charge for it?

4. I don't want satellite, SD locals. Even if you decide the 921 user should be charged (and the 811 user not charged), why not just charge for this OTA guide data? Why should the 921 user have to pay $6.00/mo for guide data and the sd broadcast when all that is needed is the data?

5. DirecTV and Voom offer over the air guide data for free. Do you think you will be able to attract new customers with this business model? Do you think you will keep your existing customer base, or do you think you will loose customers with this action?

6. The 921 comes complete with an ATSC tuner which provides perfect, HD digital picture and surround sound. Why is there any need for users to receive HD locals over the air to want to watch highly compressed satellite local channels?


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## jsanders

moviegoerman said:


> I'm there with you! Anyone know a good attorney ready for a fight? Maybe we should create a poll and see who would be interested in a class action to recover the cost of purchasing the 921. Make Dish buy them back!


Sure, but I want the $1000 I paid for it, so I can switch to another service.


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## markcollins

jsanders said:


> Okay, that is interesting. He asked the question why though, right??
> 
> Maybe we need to all create a unified list, and then when we call in, we can tell him "why" Dish should provide the guide w/o charging for locals. If enough people called in to complain with a unified explanation, it might have more of an impact.
> 
> From going through this message board, I have five reasons compiled to start the list. If anyone wants to add to it, that will be great, we will end up with a more comprehensive list as time goes by.
> 
> Here is what we have mentioned so far:
> 
> 1. The 811 receiver does a much better job at supplying digital over the air guide data, and they are not charged for the guide data service. They are not even charged a VOD fee.
> 
> 2. The $5/mo VOD fee that we pay every month is supposed to cover the cost of the guide data. Why should we pay for something twice? If a user drops an SD package, AT60, AT120, AEP, Dish charges $5 for providing the satellite link to our houses. Doesn't this $5/mo VOD fee, the $5 included in the sd satellite packages cover this cost already? Doesn't that hidden expense already pay for the guide for 811 users? Are we being charged, once, twice, or three times for this guide data?? Is that even legal?
> 
> 3. Over the air guide data is freely transmitted by terrestrial sources through the PSIP data stream. Why am I being charged for something that comes over the air, into my living room, for free? The FCC will soon require this to be an accurate transmission. It currently doesn't extend for nine days, but Dish blocks even this limited, free guide data. Why can't they do a free, limited guide, and charge for an extended guide in the event that they are so greedy they feel the need to charge for it?
> 
> 4. I don't want satellite, SD locals. Even if you decide the 921 user should be charged (and the 811 user not charged), why not just charge for this OTA guide data? Why should the 921 user have to pay $6.00/mo for guide data and the sd broadcast when all that is needed is the data?
> 
> 5. DirecTV and Voom offer over the air guide data for free. Do you think you will be able to attract new customers with this business model? Do you think you will keep your existing customer base, or do you think you will loose customers with this action?
> 
> 6. The 921 comes complete with an ATSC tuner which provides perfect, HD digital picture and surround sound. Why is there any need for users to receive HD locals over the air to want to watch highly compressed satellite local channels?


I basically asked these questions when I talked to the 921 CSR Sup.--His Responses were:

1. The 811 is a more advanced receiver in hardware and is capable of receiving locally broadcast Guide data..When I quiried him on the 811 being more hardware advanced and what that had to do with the 921 charge and guide data info,he denied he gave that excuse and I told him if the conversation is being recorded he needs to review because that was the excuse he was trying to give until I informed you I was also an 811 owner.
2 . He answer was as I posted earlier,The Local stations do not pay them to broadcast the local Guide so they won't provide it for free. 
3. He tried to tell me most local stations do not broadcast the psip data so they cannot just rebroadcast anyway.I told him I had a philips DVD recorder with Tuner and it receives OTA guide data.He said yes but that is analog.My reply was That I am to believe my locals broadcast their analog stations but not Digital Guide Data,also this was when I confronted him with also having an 811 that received the Guide(with no extra chge) and before aquiring my 811 I had a samsung HD tuner and it received my local HD guide quite well!I told him even if locals didn't transmit a complete 24x7 guide why not offer this and then charge for the upgraded local piggybacking if someone wanted it?Back to his previous"if they don't pay us to transmit it we're not".
4. see answer above.
5. didn't care,No providing unless they make money on it.
6. didn't care,no providing unless they make money on it.

So you can see,At least the man was honest.The first 921 csr told me I could get locals without the SD local package so we did a little experiment,she discontinued my locals and my Guide data went poof for OTA!
She seemed truly confused and that is when I insisted on speaking to a supervisor.She also was honest on why it took 5 minutes to get a sup.she said there were about 5 of them huddling around first discussing my call.I guess they drew straws on who had to answer the questions and how they were going to.
Sorry about this long post but it is becoming obvious to me this is no temp fix to be rectified later.It is an intentional ploy for more revenue.Mark Lamutt--I would at this point with all the BS that has been going on with the 921,be distancing myself from any official dealings with Dish.I do appreciate all you have done in the past about trying to keep us informed.I hope this was as big a surprise to you as it obviously has been to us 921 owners who have been waiting for a year plus for a final working version of this product.


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## Mark Lamutt

Yes, it was as surprising to me as it was to all of you. I was told a very long time ago that the 921 and the 811 would be doing the local guide data the same way, so when the 811 came out and you didn't have to be subbed to the locals to get the data, I assumed that would be the way the 921 would work as well.


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## Michael P

TonyB said:


> Michael,
> If you want analog OTA locals, then do you need E* locals? If you want analog local OTA channel 4 for example to be at "4" on the program guide, then the E* channel 4 would be up at 8xxx. Unchecking the box is for people who want to use the E* local instead of the analog OTA. For me, since the E* transmission of a local channel is a compressed and therefore poorer PQ than OTA, there is no need to actaully ever view the E* local. Its only reason to live to to provide the current solution for program info.


I don't want analog OTA locals, I need analog OTA locals. Some statons do nothave their digital signals up yet, or are LPTV's that will not be going digital. So if I were to sub to Dish LIL's just for the EPG, I would have to uncheck the box in the "Preferences", "More" "Off-air antenna locals". When this box is unchecked the analog OTA's disappear. Even if I did sub to LIL's I'd loose some LPTV's.


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## Samich

I would never have guessed in a million years before this release was spooled that they could somehow actually improve the product while at the same time pissing me off. I've never actually been pissed at E* before, I've kind of enjoyed watching the software evolve into a better product.

I live in an area where I can get all locals with the exception of UPN digitally, and UPN comes in quite well analog. I therefore have no reason whatsoever to subscribe to Dish locals. I don't often post here, but I check the posts on a nearly daily basis as I've really been looking forward to a useable product. Now I find I've been waiting for nothing.

I have no solid reasoning, but I was somehow OK with paying $5/month for nothing at all. Now E* wants me to pay $11/month ($5 pvr + $6 locals) for...nothing still. I all of a sudden realize that is what I pay for Sirius in my car, which I find very useful and worth the money.

I am so upset about this I must act, and here are my options as I see them:

1) Reduce programming from 180 to 60+. This will save me $15/month I and can certainly get by without the other channels. This will hurt the pocketbook of E*
2) Sell 921 and buy 811. With the way I watch TV, guide data is more useful than the ability to record. This will give me what I need and I will save the $11/month.
3) Sell 921 and go to DirecTV. This hurts as I just droped $1K (actually $750 after trade-in of my old 6000) on this unit in June, and I haven't gotten that much value out of it yet.
4) Carry my 921 the 1/2 mile to E* cust. service here in Littleton, shatter the piece of s#!$% all over the floor, start screaming at it until I get arrested, feel slightly better.

I do not see Comcast as an option currently, programming is still too $$, and they don't carry all locals in HD.

I am not willing to pay $6 for locals just for guide data.

I am not willing to drop the HD pack, I like ESPNHD.

Can someone help me out with more options? As it stands I will probably choose option #1. In fact, I'm going to do it right now to kick off my E* revenge tour.


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## Samich

OK, done.

Of course, they charged me $5 to change programming. Sweet.


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## jsanders

Sure, there are two more options I can think of.

First, wait a week or two to see how the dust settles. This could be a permanent "policy change" on Echostar's part. It could also be a band-aid snafu fix that will be changed. 

We really haven't heard anything about the future direction of the 921 software. We now have Mark stating at the beginning of this thread, that it isn't a bug. We also Have Scott stating that things should be remedied. I don't think we have a very clear picture about the actual path the 921 software will take.

The obvious other option is to do nothing at all. Not a very appealing option, but it is always good to realize it exists.


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## Samich

I cannot take the doing nothing option, even for a week. A week of no changes for E* might convince them they've accomplished something good and stick with it, even if it was a mistake. What they require is a direct & swift negative response. As someone who is in sales, I know the most painful way to get my attention is to take away business.

After reviewing programming options, I ended up changing to 120, not 60+ as I stated previiously. Now that I've checked my favorites list for which channels I've lost that I actually watched:
multiple Discovery channels
Boomerang
History International
OLN (only during Tour de France)

Nothing critical to me. That's $110 / year less for E* for this decision. And I still am not subscribing to locals!


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## SteveB

I sent this message to *Charlie Ergen and Jim DeFranco (direct email addresses deleted) *
I have been a Dish Network subscriber since March 1997. I selected Dish over the other options, cable and the other satellite systems, because Dish seemed to offer high quality, good program selection and reasonable pricing. I also decided to go for satellite since I get good quality over-the-air (OTA) reception in the Los Angeles area and I don't need cable to receive the local channels. Over the years I have upgraded several times to bigger packages and better receivers including a 501 PVR that hooked me on PVR/DVRs. August 2004, I finally decided to upgrade to HDTV, purchasing a large screen Samsung DLP HDTV receiver and your 921 HD DVR. I decided on the 921 based on the brochure specs that indicated that I could receive Dish HD programming for an additional $5.99/month and local digital OTA reception.

My experience with the 921:

First I must say the image quality from your HD channels is great and the OTA digital tuner was ok. But I have had many issues and problems from this $1,000 purchase of the 921. 
· The standard definition analog reception is 50% of the time blurry due to an interlace problem odd and even field are transposed, lines 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc. are shown 2,1,4,3,6,5 etc. I complained to your help desk, they did not have an answer and said that it could be a software problem and referred it to engineering (problem was not resolved with the new software). 
· The fan is very loud for equipment that you want to keep in the living room and runs even when it is off. I took the suggestion to relocate it in another room and use the RF remote. I had to build a shelf in the downstairs garage below the TV and drill a hole in the floor for the cables. 
· The 921 became slow to respond to commands after several days. I was advised to reboot the system. This worked, but I had to do this about every two days. This was extremely annoying since the 921 was located downstairs in the garage.
· I was also led to believe I could get both standard definition TV and HD TV out of the 921 simultaneously. I wanted that feature to drive the regular TVs in the rest of my house while simultaneously viewing programming on the Samsung. This does not work.
· Recording OTA digital programming is very cumbersome without the aid of a guide. Worse than programming an old VCR. Retrieving recorded OTA programs from the HD can be confusing without meaningful labels. Not a $1,000 investment experience.

I have withheld my criticisms after finding the DBSTalk forum. At least they were keeping me informed on the issues with the 921. I found out a major software update was about to be released, supposedly curing a host of problems, including the OTA program guide. I got the new download December 7th. It is too early to determine if the reboot problem has gone away, but version L211 did not cure the rest of the problems.

Now according to the DBSTalk forum, to get the OTA program guide, I must subscribe to local feeds from Dish. I confirmed this with your phone help system after waiting for about 15 minutes (the people were very courteous). WHY? You provide the users of an older receiver(811) the local programming guide free of charge. You want to extract an extra 6 bucks for the guide even though I am subscriber to the everything package at about $1K a year plus spending another $1K on a system that was buggy! This is the straw that breaks the back. You are screwing your high end customers for a lousy six bucks! You do have competitors!

Steve Bridges


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## jsanders

Samich said:


> Can someone help me out with more options? As it stands I will probably choose option #1. In fact, I'm going to do it right now to kick off my E* revenge tour.


Hey, I thought of another option for you. Make an estimate of what one of those customer service representatives pay is. Let's say, they make $10/hr..

Just waste $5.99 worth of their time on the phone once per month. In the case of $10/hr., you need to waste 35 minutes and 56 seconds.

I've inadvertently argued with Dish on the phone for about two months worth of locals fees in the past couple of days.


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## Samich

jsanders said:


> Hey, I thought of another option for you. Make an estimate of what one of those customer service representatives pay is. Let's say, they make $10/hr..
> 
> Just waste $5.99 worth of their time on the phone once per month. In the case of $10/hr., you need to waste 35 minutes and 56 seconds.
> 
> I've inadvertently argued with Dish on the phone for about two months worth of locals fees in the past couple of days.


Oooooohh, I like that one. I will sit in my office tomorrow doing work with them on the speakerphone, asking them questions. I'm a terrible multitasker though, I guess they'll just have to deal with my slow, disjointed, poorly thought out responses while I focus on remaining productive at work. Thank you, that makes me feel much better. I can do this WAAAY more than once per month.


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## DonLandis

Mark collins- The main reason why E* should not be charging for a guide info is just because none of their competition does. Plus, if it is true, per my sources, this whole issue may soon be moot anyway if the FCC expands the requirement to supply the guide data to the viewers. The requirements of PSIP added to FCC regulations (They were always part of the ATSC standard but not under FCC enforcement) last August is just the first step. Many stations are now gearing up for PSIP full guide Data in preparation for the new regulations they expect will soon be in place. 
This means that if the E* service filters and makes you pay for a regulated part of the signal from your locals, they may be subject to enforcement fine. Currently, a violation of the ATSC standard carries no enforcement and is worthless. Besides most stations are in violation of ATSC standards. 
I feel this whole issue will be short lived. But to speed things along, customers churning for this reason could soon show them the error of their ways. There is no other greater weapon we have than to not succumb and take our business to their competition.


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## gboot

I find I watch the locals a lot and the guide information is helpful. But paying an extra $6/month for Guide data that is supposed to be there is just not right. I agree hurt them in the pocket book. My plan is to continue to find ways to help pressure Charlie to articulate what his intentions are. Is Dish going to do the right thing, admit it's a problem and get it fixed or waive the fee. Or is Dish going to be the kind of company that I do not want to do business with, inflated advertising promising one thing and then trying to sneak in hidden fees.
In the interim , I'm going to drop my Top 60, pay them another $5 access fee to get the HD content and HBO, net loss to Dish $19.99/month. I would encourage others to look for ways to him them in the pocketbook, the loss of programming doesn't need to be forever, just until they straighten this mess out.


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## Mark Lamutt

The monthly Charlie Chat is on Monday night the 13th at 9:00pm EST. If everyone were to call in, maybe someone would slip through the screeners and could talk to Charlie and Jim directly about this...and of course, if you mentioned DBSTalk in the process, there'd be a DVD in it for you as well...


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## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> maybe someone would slip through the screeners and could talk to Charlie and Jim directly about this


So I guess you wouldn't want to tell the screener the true nature of your call? If so, what do you think a good topic would be in order to get through on the slide? 
:lol:


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## n0qcu

CCAP is always a good subject.


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## fjerina

I am really mad at Dish for now requiring me to get the local stations just so I can see the OTA guide data. I feel they are mistreating their high-end users and they will be losing many customers to DirecTV with their tactics. Dish is falling behind as far as HD channel offerings and with DirecTV launching more satellites for additional HD channel capability I feel some people will start leaving Dish since they are currently not being treated very well. CHANGE YOUR POLICIES DISH !!!


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## markcollins

Mark- I know you have dealt with Dish intimately much more than Probably anyone on this forum.With that said though,I am beginning to feel after almost a year of waiting and following the progress of the 921 and now having my lengthly discussion with CSRs that this guide data situation is intentional and they seem to think they can weather the storm of frustrarion and come out on the other end with their local fees.
I have dropped programming yesterday to show my displeasure with Dish,and am trying to figure other ways to show it.Right now it's hard to dump a $1000.00 investment,and I think Dish knows this and that's the reason they think they can get through this,Oh ya maybe some of the recent $500.00 owners might bolt,but hey they are probably mostly fairly recent owners and might not feel as betrayed and stay.Playing the percentages I guess you would say.


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## glenn z

Well, I lopped off $20/month by reducing programming. I'm sure it doesn't make a difference to the pig but I feel a little better. I'm deciding right now whether I can do without the HD pack or not. I really like ESPN HD & DISC HD. Tough call.


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## jsanders

Eagles said:


> So I guess you wouldn't want to tell the screener the true nature of your call? If so, what do you think a good topic would be in order to get through on the slide?
> :lol:


I think you could figure out a way to do it without being outright deceptive.

"Hi, I want to ask Charlie a question about my local channel lineup, and receiving locals over the air with the 811 receiver."

Then, ask the question to Charlie like, "Guide data works great on the 811, and it is free, or at least paid for for that $5 service fee that is in the packaged in the ATxx package." But, with the 921, the guide data is just a remapped analog guide which isn't accurate, and worse yet requires a subscription to local channels. Why should I pay for this when the 811 guide is free? Why should I pay this $6 when I already pay the $5 access fee, and the $5VOD fee, and a $6 guide fee? I've been beaten up with the 921 for a year now with buggy software and cancelled features like Dishwire. Why should I continue to be your customer if you treat me this way?

Is this now Echostar's policy to charge for guide data for their high end customers?"


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## Mark Lamutt

markcollins said:


> Mark- I know you have dealt with Dish intimately much more than Probably anyone on this forum.With that said though,I am beginning to feel after almost a year of waiting and following the progress of the 921 and now having my lengthly discussion with CSRs that this guide data situation is intentional and they seem to think they can weather the storm of frustrarion and come out on the other end with their local fees.
> I have dropped programming yesterday to show my displeasure with Dish,and am trying to figure other ways to show it.Right now it's hard to dump a $1000.00 investment,and I think Dish knows this and that's the reason they think they can get through this,Oh ya maybe some of the recent $500.00 owners might bolt,but hey they are probably mostly fairly recent owners and might not feel as betrayed and stay.Playing the percentages I guess you would say.


Mark, at this point I don't disagree with you. We'll see what happens over the next week or two with this.


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## glenn z

If you downgrade your programming in protest please e-mail [email protected] so they realize people are pissed about this.


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## smooth28la

And be sure to call into the Charlie Chat on Monday to complain to Charlie's face!


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## musicmaker2020

Well I just bought a new Hitachi LCD projection 50v715 a couple weeks ago and I was on the fence of buying a 921 for the DVR feature. My TV already has an ATSC tuner built in and does 5.1 DD.

I cant see paying the price for the HD pack (since I have AEP I dont worry about the DVR fee). Only reason to even think about getting it was the HD local DVR and getting the HBO HD free. 

No way I will pay for Discovery HD and ESPN HD any day of the week. I have 3 PBS affilates in my area (Cincinnati) all doing mulitcasting and FOX IMHO is the BEST quality sports coverage around in HD. NFL Sunday is amazing in 720p, 5.1 DD. Since the Big Game is on Fox this year and I get it for free OTA, I just cant justify putting a premimum on a standard channel.

Even though I subscribe to locals for the other recievers (721 and 2 508's) this is enough for me not to buy a 921 simply because I dont know if I want to keep the Everything Pack. No way am I going to get screwed like that.

I have been a customer with Dish since 1997 and a very loyal one at that. Started off with 2 2700 boxes. I have dumped a lot of money into the company recently and now the time has past to continue that trend if they keep with these awful practices. 

Time to start looking at other solutions for an HD DVR.


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## Indydave

It is illegal to charge some customers (921 users) for a service and not others (811 users). All customers must be charged the same amount for the same service. This is a law suit waiting to happen. I was ready to call and cancel my locals also, until I read Mark’s thread.


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## jsanders

Indydave said:


> It is illegal to charge some customers (921 users) for a service and not others (811 users). All customers must be charged the same amount for the same service. This is a law suit waiting to happen. I was ready to call and cancel my locals also, until I read Mark's thread.


Technically speaking, the free service is actually different than the paid service used by the 921. The 811 service is more capable than the 921 service, it can handle sub channel data, and it can also handle data from stations that are not part of your DMA. The 921 service is simply an analog guide remapping, very primitive.


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## daveray

I have dish locals but do to terrain my local ABC 40/29 two transmitters same programing 40 Fort Smith does not remap to 29 Springdale. So I pay for all required service and still have no guide what a kick in the pants.


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## ocnier

Man, am I glad i'm in the Tivo camp now (whu-hooh!!), man what a crock of crap! It started with a PVR fee per receiver not acount then "Dishwire" which was total vaporware and just went on downhill from there. The sad part is that I really used to like and admire this damn company. Talk about a company that went to sh*t really really fast. :nono2: :nono2: 

15 Jan 04 - 921 owner (frustating & fun at different times)
03 Dec 04 - HD Tivo owner (total bliss!)
07 Dec 04 - L211 successfully installs
08 Dec 04 - took down E*'s dishes and boxed up all equipment. (now, I just hope it sells fast on ebay!... gotta admit though i will miss Sirius)
Present - not one issue to report with TIVO yet (you do the math!)


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## wfhuber

Please add me to the list of disappointed members. Now I don't know which pig to feed.
Bill :nono:


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## ibglowin

smooth28la said:


> And be sure to call into the Charlie Chat on Monday to complain to Charlie's face!


You''ll never get through. Only happy, smiley Dish customers get through. :nono:


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## moviegoerman

ocnier said:


> Man, am I glad i'm in the Tivo camp now (whu-hooh!!), man what a crock of crap! It started with a PVR fee per receiver not acount then "Dishwire" which was total vaporware and just went on downhill from there. The sad part is that I really used to like and admire this damn company. Talk about a company that went to sh*t really really fast. :nono2: :nono2:
> 
> Present - not one issue to report with TIVO yet (you do the math!)


I totally agree! I still need to get at least a year out of my ($1000) 921 before I can throw it off a tall building. 7 more months to go... Hopefully, the 10-250 will drop in price by then too (I'll get another one of those to replace my 921). I've had my 10-250 since July and it just keeps getting better! I've never been disappointed with it yet! The 921 has been the complete opposite experience for me...

It is obvious Dish no longer cares to be on the bleeding edge. All their press releases are catered to new standard definition local channels. All their Charlie Chat's hype how we must go complain that cable cost to much, that cable shouldn't have the locals advantage, etc. Hum... I never hear that from DirecTV... It seems Dish has decided to marketing to the low to middle end. i.e. Give me the cheapest package with locals in SD. It is the best market they have to grow, but in the end HD will win and Dish will lose.

http://www.adweek.com/aw/national/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000731890

MPEG4 is Dish's solution to getting more HD channels. They don't plan to invest much compared to DirecTV putting up 2 satellites (spaceway 1 & spaceway 2) in 2005 to bring 500 HD locals to satellite by next summer. That will be in 6 months!

Another 2 satellites (DirecTV10 and DirecTV11) to be launched in 2007 will bring another 1000 HD channels. In the end, DirecTV is shooting for 1500 HD local channels and 150 HD national stations. It seems to me DirecTV will be the HD leader in the next year and maintain it for a long time.

http://www.avrev.com/news/0904/9.directv.html

Voom is trying, but strapped for money. Who knows if Dish will buy them, but it doesn't sound like Dish is making any efforts in that direction. Dish's only current direction is to refit with MPEG4 which does nothing but cost consumers more for less. A full bandwidth signal will have the better quality compared to using MPEG4 which is nothing more than a higher level of compression.

As a high end customer I want the best, I pay for the best, and I expect the best. I've waited for a very long time to see the 921 replace my 721 to give me dual tuner HD support. It has been a disaster on so many levels. Some of you might be very loyal to Dish like I was until I got fed up with the lies, delays, and deception coming from the company. After living with both services for 5 months, I can tell you, I'm a much happier customer with DirecTV. I don't think you can get perfection from either provider, but I do think DirecTV is the current leader in hardware, software, and services. I don't see Dish doing anything but pissing their leading customers off more and more.

I drank the Tivo Koolaid and it felt good... I don't think Dish could ever win me back after the 921 fiasco. They are proving every day that they have no intention of building a real HD service. Everything they do has been a hack lately and lies to cover it up. More and more see the light. One day Dish will wonder where they went wrong! It's not like we haven't been screaming... They just don't care about you or me. It's everone's choice how long they will let it continue. Keep buying without changing and they won't change either.


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## Michael P

Indydave said:


> It is illegal to charge some customers (921 users) for a service and not others (811 users). All customers must be charged the same amount for the same service. This is a law suit waiting to happen. I was ready to call and cancel my locals also, until I read Mark's thread.


If this true for the local guides, then it should also be true for the PVR fees.

Insted of buying the 921 I could have purchased a 501 or 508 with no increase in my bill. But a 510 or higher and BAM! there is a fee for PVR service.


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## David K

moviegoerman said:


> They just don't care about you or me. It's everone's choice how long they will let it continue. Keep buying without changing and they won't change either.


I agree completely. This is how Dish will get away with this: Out of the hundreds of thousands of costumers they have, I would say only 10% are 921 owners ( that's being generous ). Out of the total 921 owners, only 10 to 20% know about this site or that the 211 software was even coming or what it was supposed to fix. The majority of 921 owners just woke up one morning after 211 had spooled and either A) Don't subscribe to Dish locals or B) Pull their OTA from a neighboring DMA and didn't have guide data. They never thought twice about it because they never had it before. Or C) Subscribe to Dish locals and have guide data for their local DMA and are happy. Or D) Pull some of the OTA from neighboring DMA's and have guide data for some but not all of their OTA. These people will be the curious ones and call the worthless Dish tech support line and ask why they have guide data for some of their OTA and not all. They will be told exactly what I was told " If you're OTA locals aren't broadcasting with guide data you won't get it", so they'll THINK it's their local broadcasters fault and write it off. I even explained that I read on this site that it was supposed to be down mapped from Dish's locals and they told me "whoever told you that lied, if there not broadcasting it you won't get it"

Unfortunately most of the 921 owners are uneducated 921 owners and will be taken advantage of by Dish. We are a minority here I'm afraid. If Dish decides to address this it will be only because they feel like it and I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't expect dish to take care of me on this, it's up to me to take care of myself. I'm going to wait a couple of weeks to see if Dish "chooses" to address this, if not I will look at other programming options. It's to bad this info couldn't be sent to all 921 owners, that may make a difference. Strength in numbers. Will Dish try to lie their way out of this deceitfully? Probably in my opinion, we'll see. I will just have to eat the $549 I spent on the 921 and chalk it up to a BAD mistake on my part.


----------



## markcollins

david K ,I agree with your theory.Also I suspect Dish has figured out that probably 100% of dissatisfied ,fedup 921 owners will try to sell their receivers.Hence Dish will still find some sucker to pay their fees,They don't care if you were the original owner or not.Those boxes are out there and they just want them activated by anyone.The best way to show dissatisfaction is to send them their 921's in pieces back to Charlie!Unfortunately this is a $500.00 to $1000.00 form of protest,depending on how screwed Dish got you.Hence,live to accept their gouging or move on is our only option.


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## jsanders

David K, actually, there is one more scenario, and it provides the ability for those not on this forum to figure out exactly what happened. I figured out what was going on without reading these threads, in fact, I was posting my experiences here, and this thread came later.

Anyway, for those of us that were weary of not having a guide, a lot of us were ordering locals and using them as a channel guide to set timers. After a timer was set, we just edited the channel of the timer and everything was good to go.

When I saw the guide appear on Tuesday morning, I wasted no time in cancelling locals, because I didn't want to pay for locals if I had a guide. The guide, of course, dissapeared when I cancelled locals.

I suspect that this is a fairly common scenario for 921 users, and you don't need to be reading this board to figure it out.

BTW, 10% is way too big of a piece of the pie for 921 users. There are 10 million echostar subscribers, 10% would mean one million 921s in the field.

Buying the 921 was not necessarily a mistake. The mistake was on Echostar's part, there are myriads of mistakes with the 921 on Echostar's part! :nono2:


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## Mike D-CO5

They should have never used the dishplayer name for the 921. It is cursed just like the original dishplayer name for the 7100/7200 series dvrs.

When my commitment is up next summer for the FREE 510 dvr I got year and a half ago, I will be making a serious decision. I did away with Directv last Dec. and stayed with Dish ,which I have had since Jan 18 1997. I tried them just to see what I was missing. I only had the basic receiver no dvr , so it was no thrill . I think I will be changing my provider this summer back to Directv. I will just sell my Dish stuff on E-bay and switch back. Chalk up the 921 /7100/7200 dvrs as a bad experience. 

By next summer we will have the hd digital channels for Houston up on Directv so I will be interested in the new generic dvrs that Rupert will be coming out with. As long as they don't have the slow Tivo guides. I really hate the Tivo guides, both of them. I will miss the uhf remote controls but I am sure having stable dvrs with 2 ota tuners as well as 2 sat tuners will make up for it.

It's to bad, I really loved Dish but all this bullsh*t is getting to me. I am so tired of waiting for that next update that will fix all of my problems with my dish dvrs. I am also so tired of ALL of these DAMN FEES that Dish has decided to charge. The dvr fee on every box. The phone line fee if you aren't connected with the 322/522 . And now the have to sub to locals to get any ota guide information for $5.99 . And to top it all off , they say crap about how bad cable is, and how high they are and how many price changes they have , but Dish goes up every year at least $3.00 on the AEP. Dish has become the satellite - cable company. I wanted Satellite because I didn't like these very things about Cable. 

If I don't see a change in some of these things in the next 6 months I am switching back to Directv or God Forbid back to the dark side ;digital cable. :eek2:


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## CrankyYankee

Methinks it has always been one of those "unwritten laws" that 
"The station reserves the right to make last minute changes". 
Hey, e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g breaks at some point.


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## lionsrule

Hey all,

I don't know if this is going to happen across the board for everyone, but I just got an executive VP to agree to CREDIT MY ACCOUNT EVERY MONTH for the locals fee. Now I can Keep my OTA GUIDE FOR FREE.

I had to threaten DISH with my dropping their service completely, but now my threat has paid off!!!!


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## markcollins

lionsrule,thats great how did you get to a echostar VP?please tell us all so we can do same.


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## David K

Lionsrule, that's a great step in the right direction, but how's that going to effect those of us who are pulling OTA from a neighboring DMA? We get no EPG whether pay for Dish locals or not, whether we have Dish locals or not. There is still screwing going on.

CrankyYanky, How long has people been waiting for this fix? It broke the day they released it. And if it was an executive decision (which we're not completely sure of at this point) then it's not a break.


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## David K

jsanders said:


> When I saw the guide appear on Tuesday morning, I wasted no time in cancelling locals, because I didn't want to pay for locals if I had a guide. The guide, of course, dissapeared when I cancelled locals.
> 
> I suspect that this is a fairly common scenario for 921 users, and you don't need to be reading this board to figure it out.:nono2:


That maybe true, except for those, like myself who will keep Dish's locals to feed the other TV's that my off air antenna does not. And we know what happens if you're pulling the locals from a different DMA. Had I not found this thread I would have never known.


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## Pepper

Indydave said:


> It is illegal to charge some customers (921 users) for a service and not others (811 users). All customers must be charged the same amount for the same service. This is a law suit waiting to happen. I was ready to call and cancel my locals also, until I read Mark's thread.


Is this legally valid? If so the same argument could be made for the VOD fee for 921, 522 and 510 but not for 721, 508, 501 since (at least in the case of the 501, 508, 510) it is EXACTLY THE SAME service.


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## lionsrule

first call was to 800-333-dish

I simply stated that I wanted to cancel my account

Then I was transfered to customer retention.....

The person I spoke with asked why I wanted to cancel....

I stated I didn't want to pay for my locals for the only purpose of receive a guide for my HD OTA's. The rep stated that dish has no way of verifying whether I am watching my locals via dish or not. I said I wanted the fee dropped or else I walk.
She said she wasn't authorized to do that....but.....I was then transfered to a V.P. of the executives office (Mark Duffy I think his name was). After explaining my opinion on the matter he agreed to a monthly credit on my account to cover the locals cost.

TaDa!!


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## TonyB

lionsrule said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I don't know if this is going to happen across the board for everyone, but I just got an executive VP to agree to CREDIT MY ACCOUNT EVERY MONTH for the locals fee. Now I can Keep my OTA GUIDE FOR FREE.
> 
> I had to threaten DISH with my dropping their service completely, but now my threat has paid off!!!!


You seem to imply that you spoke to an "executive VP" sometime on a Saturday!!! Doesn't that seem rather unlikely? Are you sure it wasn't somebody in CS that was just playing the "role" to give the customer the impression that they had made it to some higher up? After all, if you did, you would no longer try to escalate it since you would feel that you spoke to somebody at the top!.

Wait til Monday now and watch everybody else on this forum make the same call.


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## lionsrule

you are correct sir, it was friday afternoon

and yeah, I HOPE everyone calls in monday.

In fact, I wish those of us passionate dish customers would sort of unionize between the various sat forums and companies like satelliteguys. Imagine if a LARGE, UNITED group (let's say in excess of 10,000) were to have correspondence with Dish Network informing them that situations like this (having to have/pay for locals in order to get guide info)) are UNACCEPTABLE. If dish didn't provide an acceptable solution, then this organization puts it's money where it's mouth is and names a date when dish will be flooded with 10,000 + calls to cancel service.........completely, not this bit by bit downgrade crap I've read a few of you have threatened dish with. You have to be prepared to make sacrifice.....no tv for a day,week,month.....big deal...especially in the late spring and summer when we should all be doing something else anyways. It's only $25 to reinstate a cancelled account anyways, and I KNOW that dish would waive that fee if the MASS of people I am imagining quit taking crap from dish and showed solidarity!!

Think about it people........


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## David K

lonsrule, that's a great idea (for you guys) and would be a typical Dish move, give people credit for their Dish locals. That would appease 75% of the people here. The other 25% of us would be left out in the dark. Typical Dish, quiet down the majority and hope the rest goes away. How about they FIX the problem so we all get our EPG even if we pull our locals from neighboring DMA's, like the 811 does. No one has even addressed this yet.

Mark,

You said you were looking in to those of us who subscribe to Dish locals but pull OTA from neighboring DMA's. Have you found out any thing? Or do you think we'll be S.O.L.


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## TonyB

Now that at least ONE person has had their local fee waived until its made available free raises a couple of questions.
1. The "senior VP" says that the fee is waived until guide data is made available free. That seems to imply a high level decision within E* that free availablility of EPG is the plan, otherwise it was a decion for free locals "forever".
2. Now that each of us can quote a deal made for one customer, is E* now obligated to provide the same deal - or face legal action (class or otherwise)? Isn't a law that requires the same price at the same time for all customers?

I suspect that this topic will spring to life again over the 24 hours - E* is going to get thousannds of calls if you use the viewer number of this forum as a guide??? since the deal is free locals. Those that currently do not subscribe now willl and demand if for free and those who already do will demand the local fee be removed!

i wonder if lionsrule would be willing to somehow let us all know his identity - either name or account number or whatever, so that we can each quote the actual customer that was given the deal. Who know though, maybe E* will know by 9am Monday whats been going on here and will have already given a new script to the CS phone folks.


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## markcollins

The answer to "Dish is unable to tell if you are watching locals through them" is :If I wanted your locals why did I call to cancel them when Guide Data became available?Then only to find out you are requiring something I do not want.


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## boylehome

E* has easy access to actual subscription information for those of us who have 921's who subscribe and don't subscribe to Lil's. I'll bet the majority subscribe to Lil, hence their decision to make the remaining un-subscribed lil 921 users victims.


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## SimpleSimon

My two cents.

PSIP isn't going to be very useful for a long time. Using analog LiL data is a kludge.

You have to subscribe because the 921 software design won't save guide data without a subscription. Right from the start, they put the necessary filter in the wrong place.

The filter is needed to keep from wasting space on guide data from other markets. That much makes sense, but the implementation, just like most of the 921 software, is simply bad.

Done correctly, guide reception would have nothing to do with subscriptions.

Can't do it? No way to select it? BULL$#!T Try Menu-8-2 to see that such things CAN be done.

Now, to REALLY do it right, the guide database would accept data from multiple sources - even from the internet. Using multiple data sources was a radically new concept - 30 frelling years ago. Even banks (notoriously poor with hi-tech) have been doing this for decades.


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## boylehome

SimpleSimon said:


> My two cents.
> 
> PSIP isn't going to be very useful for a long time. Using analog LiL data is a kludge.
> 
> You have to subscribe because the 921 software design won't save guide data without a subscription. Right from the start, they put the necessary filter in the wrong place.
> 
> The filter is needed to keep from wasting space on guide data from other markets. That much makes sense, but the implementation, just like most of the 921 software, is simply bad.
> 
> Done correctly, guide reception would have nothing to do with subscriptions.
> 
> Can't do it? No way to select it? BULL$#!T Try Menu-8-2 to see that such things CAN be done.
> 
> Now, to REALLY do it right, the guide database would accept data from multiple sources - even from the internet. Using multiple data sources was a radically new concept - 30 frelling years ago. Even banks (notoriously poor with hi-tech) have been doing this for decades.


So they could program so it could get the EPG data ; 1. directly from the satellite, 2. via the modem to their data center and, 3. from the local PSIP. Future models could also possibly include a connection (like the USB) for computer hook-up so to get it directly from the internet.


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## SimpleSimon

boylehome said:


> So they could program so it could get the EPG data ; 1. directly from the satellite, 2. via the modem to their data center and, 3. from the local PSIP. Future models could also possibly include a connection (like the USB) for computer hook-up so to get it directly from the internet.


 Well, I doubt THEY could do it, but any decent programmer could. The 921 doesn't have an excess of horsepower, but this application doesn't need much at all.

And before I get flamed for yet again dis'ing Eldon, everything I've seen says it's crap, and I've seen things I'm not supposed to see, and that just reinforces my opinion.


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## Guest

921 software: An Eldon's jr. intern's thesis project? Stranger things have happened.


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## Michael P

Question for those of you who have locals-enabled guides on your 921. CAn you still see analog OTA signals that are not a part on E* LIL? 

There is a checkbox (new since 2.11) that turns on the analog OTA, however the way it's worded leads me to believe that in order to get the guide data this box has to be unchecked. 

I'd really hate to lose the analog OTA feature (even though you can't record them) since there are some LPTV signals not in the LIL package (well one of interest, the rest are shopping or religious networks that I already get via satellite) as well as a couple of full-power signals not yet in DT.


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## boylehome

Michael P said:


> Question for those of you who have locals-enabled guides on your 921. CAn you still see analog OTA signals that are not a part on E* LIL?
> 
> There is a checkbox (new since 2.11) that turns on the analog OTA, however the way it's worded leads me to believe that in order to get the guide data this box has to be unchecked.
> 
> I'd really hate to lose the analog OTA feature (even though you can't record them) since there are some LPTV signals not in the LIL package (well one of interest, the rest are shopping or religious networks that I already get via satellite) as well as a couple of full-power signals not yet in DT.


YES!!! What I discovered after reading marks update information is that the local OTA still show in the guide but if you unchecked this box, the lower number LIL's populate the EPG. I have mine turned on. When I had it unchecked, the DVR events didn't show for the red dots for the LIL's on the lower numbers.


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## DonLandis

Simon- I think you're wrong about the implementation question. According to Mark, the decision to do this, tie it to the subscription of local channels, was not a screwup by Eldon, it was a decision made by ETC to spec it that way. E* is quite motivated to have all subscribers pay for local into local and this is one more way they can achieve that goal. I would guess that Eldon had three choices for Program guide offers and these all were quite possible by Eldon's capability but the decision on which to do was made for them by ETC.
Options:
1. As they are doing it now, ie, the guide data is achieved only after a subscription tier is authorized.
2. The guide data sent as a low bandwidth stream on one of the TP's and properly routed to the correct channels and guide menu. As it is being done in other receivers like the 811. The only reason why the 921 was not done this way was because E* wanted to make some money. I have no doubt that Eldon was capable of doing it this way but was instructed not to. 
3. Via PSIP. Unfortunately this is not a good option at this time since hardly any station in the country is up and running now. I know of one station here that is just now getting this part of the voluntary aspect of PSIP installed. They anticipatye it being made mandatory but it is not at this time.

I repeat, I have suggested that all receivers offer capability to do 3 as a priority but if there isn't 3 available then revert to 2. which is what the competition and other receivers from E* are doing.


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## boylehome

DonLandis said:


> I repeat, I have suggested that all receivers offer capability to do 3 as a priority but if there isn't 3 available then revert to 2. which is what the competition and other receivers from E* are doing.


Don, my vote is for, "3" as outlined in your post.


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## Mark Lamutt

David K said:


> Mark,
> 
> You said you were looking in to those of us who subscribe to Dish locals but pull OTA from neighboring DMA's. Have you found out any thing? Or do you think we'll be S.O.L.


I've heard nothing back about this. So, take that for what it's worth. I certainly wouldn't expect any kind of change until at least the next version, if they do anything about it at all.


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## jsanders

Mark Lamutt said:


> I've heard nothing back about this. So, take that for what it's worth. I certainly wouldn't expect any kind of change until at least the next version, if they do anything about it at all.


Hmmmmm. I always figured that this was going to be some stop-gap measure before they did it right, an implementation like the 811. Your tone seems to have changed over the past week Mark.

Something is strange going on here. We've never had to wait for a whole week for release notes either. I wonder what in the world is going on. It almost sounds like the guys at Eldon put out this release and simply went home and washed their hands clean. Does anybody answer the phones anymore?


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## glenn z

Anybody else get Dish to give a credit for locals?


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## Scott Greczkowski

Remember to flood the phones tonight. 

Make your voice heard!


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## Guest

Scott, is Satguys down? I've been shut out all day. Hope I'm not banned.


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## BobaBird

I doubt they are obligated to make the same accommodation to all their customers but I do see something else going on here. They have sold a device that will record from satellite or digital OTA for $4.98/mo (consumer fraud if ever I've seen it but not my main point here). OTA timers can be created manually but it's much simpler if you can get the start/stop times from the guide. Also if you just press Record while viewing digital OTA you can't change tuners because your only choice is Manual Stop, if you had a guide it would default to "end of event." Now that there is a guide available to resolve these OTA recording issues, and we're still being charged a DVR fee, Dish wants us to pay $5.99/mo for locals.

Here is a definition I found on Google for "bait and switch":


> a deceptive way of selling that involves advertising a product at a very low price in order to attract customers who are then persuaded to switch to a more expensive product


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## glenn z

Now CSR is telling me they are working on a s/w fix. I'd like to see an official statement from executive management on this.


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## Scott Greczkowski

gpflepsen said:


> Scott, is Satguys down? I've been shut out all day. Hope I'm not banned.


Nope not down. In fact there is 1,324 users online at the moment. 

Please PM me your IP address as there is a chance our firewall could have blocked your IP address.


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## DonLandis

Just a guess on my part as to what their position will be-

Assuming we flood them with protests.
They will claim it was an oversight and a fix is being worked on but for the time being, the only ones who can receive the guide data are those who subscribe to LIL. The fix will happen sometime in the future (I always love that line). Until then, those without LIL will just have to wait a bit longer.

Meanwhile, they hope to persuade many to cave on this just to get those local guides up and running. After all, it's only $5.95 plus 20% tax, right? 

Again, a good guestimate is that it will take them 6 months to fix this in the software. 

The only alternative will be to state that this is the new policy and you will just have to pay for the guide service. 
I see no validity in the comparison of what services are offered on a 811 for free vs. what you pay for on a 921 so I doubt there is any recourse on that. Heck, they crossed that bridge way back when some DVR's had fees while others didn't. You'all accepted that price policy then so why is this different?
Now, I do agree that to charge for a bug fix is a bit borderline fraud and that is where I think the crux of the legal battle will be. 
Bait and switch? no way does that apply here. This is a case of we bought something for an agreed amount of money, paid for it and in one case they didn't deliver (Dishwire) and in this case, guide data, want to charge more for something we already paid for. That is pure and simple fraud. Flood them with complaints!


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## jsanders

DonLandis said:


> I see no validity in the comparison of what services are offered on a 811 for free vs. what you pay for on a 921 so I doubt there is any recourse on that. Heck, they crossed that bridge way back when some DVR's had fees while others didn't. You'all accepted that price policy then so why is this different?


The difference between this and the DVR fee is that the receivers that have the fee are newer receivers. The 510 is newer than the 508. The 522 is newer than the 721. The older receivers are grandfathered without the fee. Knowing this, you can even go out and buy a 508 knowing they won't tack on a DVR fee.

Is the 811 grandfathered and older than the 921? I don't think so! When they instituted the DVR fee, Dish announced this to be their policy, any new receivers made by dish will have this fee, existing ones will not. They made that statement because existing receivers were bought without any knowledge of this fee. That same thing applies with the 921. No statement was ever made that we would be charged when we finally got guide data. That was the same policy with the 811, and they did not charge a fee. If Dish said in the future that future receivers will be charged a fee for guide data, that is a different story. The 921 and 811 should be grandfathered in that case.

That is how I see it, feel free to try to shoot holes in my argument.


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## Michael P

Here is an e-mail I sent to Charlie Ergen via the E* website for tonight's Charlie Chat:

I recently upgraded to a model 921 HD PVR. While I am extremely happy with the picture quality, I have one problem - the electronic program guide for the local channels has no information. The recent software upgrade 2.11 was supposed to fix this problem, however now it's my understanding that I would have to subscribe to your LIL package just to get program guide information. 
This is unacceptable! It's my understanding that the model 811 gets local channel guide data at no extra charge. Why the disparity?

Here is the URL if you want to send a question for tonight's chat:
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/customerCare/charlie_chat/index.asp

Ironically, when I did a site search for "Charlie Chat" I got no results, however I found the above URL in the "FAQ" section under "Customer Care". Their web search engine works about as well as their receivers


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## jsanders

Michael P said:


> Here is an e-mail I sent to Charlie Ergen via the E* website for tonight's Charlie Chat:
> 
> I recently upgraded to a model 921 HD PVR. While I am extremely happy with the picture quality, I have one problem - the electronic program guide for the local channels has no information. The recent software upgrade 2.11 was supposed to fix this problem, however now it's my understanding that I would have to subscribe to your LIL package just to get program guide information.
> This is unacceptable! It's my understanding that the model 811 gets local channel guide data at no extra charge. Why the disparity?


Nuts! If you ask it like that you give him an out. All he has to do is state why there is a disparity. "The 811 and 921 use different code bases." That would answer your question.

You have to ask it in a way that puts him in more of a corner. Ask him what people that have OTA and local subscription in different markets will do? Add the fact that the 811 provides a better solution, free of charge. Add that there are no grandfathering rules stated, that the 811 and 921 are the same age, with the feature set added at the same time. Add that V* and D* give this away for free. Ask how he will cover sub-channel data in the future. Ask how he will handle cases like PBS where the digital transmission isn't the same as the analog tranmstransmission. Ask him why we should be charged $6/mo for a sub-standard kludge? Ask him what his future plans are for the 921 software. Ask him to cover our local subscription fees until he gets this mess fixed.

If he got my email, and yours, which do you think he would rather answer on the air?

We've only got ONE shot at asking a question tonight if we get through. Let's make sure we put him in a corner, smiling infront of his 10 million person subscriber base as he answers the tough questions.


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## Michael P

"Different code basis" mean nothing to my wallet! There can be different code basis, but it's my understanding that 811 owners who do not sub to LIL get their LIL data in red (i.e. unsubbed - you see the EPG data but can't watch - just like the premium channels you don't sub to) in the 8000's. Why is E* charging one group and not the other? Because they can?! :nono: 

Let's hope that someone gets through on the phone tonight with a tougher question, say "one extra charge (the PVR fee) is enough" (actually too much).


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## boylehome

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Remember to flood the phones tonight.
> 
> Make your voice heard!


Do you think that the phones will be in working order? Here are my predictions:
1. They will say that future OTA EPG will be free and will credit those who have purchased the lil's and don't want them.
2. Still no compelling HD content.
3. The 921 is the state of art for the industry.
4. Next software update is the 12th or 13th of Nevurary.

BTW their spies have most likely read the posts and discussion via phone is moot.


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## Michael P

Put this on speed dial: *1-888-621-2078* :soapbox: :contract: :icon_lol: :bang


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## jsanders

Michael P said:


> Put this on speed dial: *1-888-621-2078*


Thanks! Where did you get the number by the way??


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## jsanders

If anyone gets on to ask a question, please consider this question, or try to cover the points here as a model to work from. It doesn't leave any wiggle room.

The 921 users received a very much anticipated software update last week.

This update leaves 921 users and people on the DBSTalk and satellite guys message boards clamoring for information though.

This 921 OTA guide data is vastly sub-standard compared to the 811. It doesn’t handle digital sub-channel data. It erroneously assumes that the analog broadcast is the same as the digital broadcast, which isn’t true, especially for public broadcasting. For those that get distant locals, it doesn’t work at all because it can’t map to channels that aren’t in its DMA. And, to top it off, we are required to purchase local channels to get this sub-standard solution.

D* and V* do not charge for this, and 811 users do not pay for this. Furthermore, there is no grandfathering issues that would suggest 811 users should get this for free, or that the 911 users should pay, citing the example of VOD fees with grandfathered receivers (which are supposed to cover the cost of guide data anyway).

I want to know, are the Eldon people going to fix this bug, give us guide data done right, the same way the 811 does? If so, I also request that you give 921 users guide data in the form of a free local channel subscription until that bug fix is released. It will ensure that the developers are properly motivated to release a fix soon! 921 users have suffered enough over the past year. Thanks!


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## Mike D-CO5

Well no one got through about the 921. They very carefully screened out anyone who tried to talk about it. The 942 and mpeg4 got discussed though.


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## bbriggs

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Well no one got through about the 921. They very carefully screened out anyone who tried to talk about it. The 942 and mpeg4 got discussed though.


I sat there on hold for about 30 minutes regarding OTA guide, then after the chat was over a person tried to 'help'. She said I needed to set up my 921 properly. I let her walk me through it several times and convinced her it had no positive effect. I was then put on hold while she checked on more information. About 20 minutes later I gave up and called the regular number to get 921 support. This CSR was obviously knowledgable of 921 operation and insisted on filing an uncommon problem report, found none from my prior calls. After a bit, she found that E* is aware of the problem and is looking into a software solution - insisted the OTA guide should not require LIL subscription. She was surprised that page up and down did not toggle between stretch modes, said that was in the works. Found many uncommon problem reports regarding stretch modes. Gives me some hope, albeit not for any immediate gratification.


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## DonLandis

_"Is the 811 grandfathered and older than the 921? I don't think so!"

feel free to try to shoot holes in my argument._

Hole #1- The 811 was out a couple of months before the 921 was released. In addition it was offered in a promotion the same month that the 921's were first shipped but soon became hard to get due to the number being installed under the promotion.

Basically, I don't think this is about charging for guide data but just how this came down with the way they programmed it. The program data tiers are married to the LIL channels tiers and the software just won't separate it the way it was done. I agree they really need to treat it like the 811 software and actually still may do that unless too many show them they are willing to pay for that guide data.

bbriggs-
The stretch mode switch was one that did work after the upgrade until I forced a power plug reboot. Then it quit. I'm showing Normal and the SD channels are all stretched. I would love to tell Mr. Fitness, Charlie that his friends in software development made it so that he looks fat on his show. Maybe that will get some action on the L211 stretch mode breakage. Also, I can't believe something like this escaped the beta testers, especially Mark.


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## SteveB

I can't understand why E* won't just directly answer the few question we have about the 921. This would eliminate erroneous speculation and festering of our original support of the E* system. The software upgrade fixed most of my problems, except the OTA guide. Even that is a little better, listing all the channels separately, no subdirectories. But all we want is the OTA guide for our now obsolete $1000 receiver.


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## jsanders

DonLandis said:


> Hole #1- The 811 was out a couple of months before the 921 was released. In addition it was offered in a promotion the same month that the 921's were first shipped but soon became hard to get due to the number being installed under the promotion.
> 
> Basically, I don't think this is about charging for guide data but just how this came down with the way they programmed it. The program data tiers are married to the LIL channels tiers and the software just won't separate it the way it was done. I agree they really need to treat it like the 811 software and actually still may do that unless too many show them they are willing to pay for that guide data.


Hi Don,

Yea, you're right, the 811 is a couple months older, but I think it is close enough. I think the concept behind what I was staying still stands.

I tend to agree with you on the cause of the guide data fiasco though. It think it was rushed out, it came down with the way they programmed it. What I really want is some information, some visibility from them! If they can just tell us something about what to expect and mean it, they could make this right. The 921 has the potential to be a great receiver if they take the time to do it. It has PCI slots and extra drive bays in it, and has potential upgrade paths. If they would design these new boxes incrementally, instead of designing them from scratch each time, they could have much more solid releases and faster time to market.


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## cleblanc

lionsrule said:


> first call was to 800-333-dish
> 
> I simply stated that I wanted to cancel my account
> 
> Then I was transfered to customer retention.....
> 
> The person I spoke with asked why I wanted to cancel....
> 
> I stated I didn't want to pay for my locals for the only purpose of receive a guide for my HD OTA's. The rep stated that dish has no way of verifying whether I am watching my locals via dish or not. I said I wanted the fee dropped or else I walk.
> She said she wasn't authorized to do that....but.....I was then transfered to a V.P. of the executives office (Mark Duffy I think his name was). After explaining my opinion on the matter he agreed to a monthly credit on my account to cover the locals cost.
> 
> TaDa!!


I have sent several emails to [email protected] and have not received any response. I also sent an email yesterday to Mark Duffy. I had his email because he was the one who helped me to get a 921 receiver back in June. He is not answering email either. So I just tried calling him using the number that I had from his email back in June and it has been disconnected and refers you to 1-800-333-DISH instead. I am extremely surprised that you were able to get through to executive CSRs. It seems they are avoiding all contact. I would also be cancelling my service right now if I did not have prepaid programming lasting til October.
Has anyone else gotten their locals for free until this problem is resolved? I am able to receive all my locals OTA and have no use for the satellite locals other than the digital guide.


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## Michael P

jsanders said:


> Thanks! Where did you get the number by the way??


From the E* Charlie Chat/Tech Forum web page:
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/customerCare/charlie_chat/index.asp


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## Michael P

As usual, last night's Charlie Chat was full of fluff and no substance. Did they really need to do that bit about the "clock channel"  At least Satellite Guys got a mention, but the caller limited his questions to MPEG4 and the 942. 

About the only thing the chat was good for was tresting the 921's ability to add time to the end of a recording at the last minute (the chat ran more than the preset 3 minute "padding", I successfully added extra padding - just to see if/how that worked).

The screeners must have been on high alert for anything related to the 921.


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## Foxbat

On the subject of PSIP, according to this article at DigitalTV Magazine, the FCC is requiring all Digital TV broadcasters to provide accurate PSIP data, out at least 12 hours. Our local FOX affiliate is actually ahead of the game and is currently sending program information. Unfortunately, my 811 doesn't know what to do with it, but the ATSC decoder in my Mits WS-55615 sees it fine.

So, Dish's argument that "PSIP is unreliable" will soon be moot.


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## jsanders

My persistence paid off a little bit today. I've kept to my principles for two long weeks now. No locals! No guide data, all timers set manually! It has been a pain in the lower extremities.

Today, when I called again, they signed me back up for locals and gave me a two month credit. Let's hope they fix the guide data in that time frame! Well, we can always hope, right?  Yea, I know there are guys that probably don't think it can be done, and you know who you are! Given the circumstances, I don't necessarily disagree with you on this one. They should just steal the 811 code and be done with it! If not, I will be calling dish again in two months!


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## Guest

Which satellite does the OTA guide data come from? My locals are on 105, but I don't want that dish. If they could turn on the guide data with the OTAs without me actually being able to get the locals, I'd be game.


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## BobaBird

The EEPG comes from 110.


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## TonyB

I currently have an external OTA antenna so as to get the local Digital sub channels. E*'s analog locals are of very poor quality. Given E* current plan to require the $6 fee for these locals, I am considering switching to the D* 10-250 receiver and dumping E* all together.

Both the 921 and 10-250 receive HD OTA. Can anybody tell me how good the OTA tuner is in the 10-250 compared to the 921. With the 921, I get a lot of signal dropouts (drives my wife NUTS). My problem is that I live about 30 miles from the stations and there is a hill with water tower directly in line - and close to me.

If the 10-250 is better at local HD then I may be ready to take a hike from E*

Thanks,


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## moviegoerman

The 10-250 was built for OTA. It has a more sensitive tuner and always locks onto my channels. Some people have had to put an attenuator on it to lessen the signal, but I haven't had that need.

You get 2 OTA tuners on the 10-250. That allows you to record 2 shows at any one time (satellite or OTA).

It does the channel mapping properly to lower channels (not frequencies).

It also pulls the guide information by local area (zip codes)... I get all the guide information except for the brand new HD PBS in the area.

It doesn't support analog stations. ONLY digital ones. But, then that's what most people want.

I love the 10-250. I watch most of my content OTA. You'll enjoy it much more... Only downside is the slow guide, but once you configure it for NBR, then i don't think you'll use it as much. It takes a few weeks to really get used to the new paradigm, but it's been well worth it to have a stable box with all the features.

If you switch, then let us know what you think about it... Also check out the other Tivo forums if you need more info. They have one on here, but http://www.tivocommunity.com is the official one and it is more active.


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## glenn z

I'm right there with you. If they don't announce plans to fix the damn program guide I'm out of here.



TonyB said:


> I currently have an external OTA antenna so as to get the local Digital sub channels. E*'s analog locals are of very poor quality. Given E* current plan to require the $6 fee for these locals, I am considering switching to the D* 10-250 receiver and dumping E* all together.
> 
> Both the 921 and 10-250 receive HD OTA. Can anybody tell me how good the OTA tuner is in the 10-250 compared to the 921. With the 921, I get a lot of signal dropouts (drives my wife NUTS). My problem is that I live about 30 miles from the stations and there is a hill with water tower directly in line - and close to me.
> 
> If the 10-250 is better at local HD then I may be ready to take a hike from E*
> 
> Thanks,


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## TonyB

Brian,
Thats most helpful - I much prefer the network stations via OTA digital. its starting to look very much like "Charlie, you have a VERY short window left to stop many of us from taking away $50 to $100 from you per customer". I have been reading the responses about the D* 10-250 and people indicating that it DOES WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO - NOW! One of my sons has D* and really likes it.

Thanks,


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## jsanders

TonyB,

The HR10-250 has advantages over the 921, and the 921 actually has advantages over the HR10-250 as well. If you don't ever want to watch live TV, then the HR10-250 is right for you.

Research both viewpoints carefully before you make a decision. I had the HR10-250, and I returned it. I may well end up swtiching back to it as well, but at least I know the weak points of it now.

Check out this video from value-electronics. At the end of the video, look at how painful it is to use the guide. If you do not want to ever channel surf, it is not important. By the way, the guide doesn't get any faster once it has popped up. Every time you scroll up or down one line, it does that slow repopulating of the time slots......

http://www.2150.com/directv/files/ve_visit.wmv

If that link didn't work, look here, and click on the " Video of ValueElectronics visit HR10-250 live demo".

http://www.valueelectronics.com/HD DIRECTV-TiVo.htm


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## gboot

Thank you for contacting the Federal Communications Commission.

Your inquiry outlines issues that are outside the scope of the FCC's
regulation of satellite TV providers. The FCC's Satellite Policy 
Branch
is responsible for, among other things, licensing direct broadcast
satellite (DBS) space station and earth station facilities, 
coordinating
spectrum internationally, and administering the satellite radio program
pursuant to Title III of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended.

Currently, the FCC has no rules governing customer service standards,
marketing practices, rates, programming, or equipment used in the
provisioning of satellite TV services.

For additional information on the FCC's role pertaining to the 
Satellite
Home Viewer Improvement Act (SHVIA), and to review the Act itself;
please visit these web sites: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/shva/;
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/shva/shvia.pdf.

Hope this proves helpful.

C. Howell
Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau
Information Access & Privacy Office
202-418-1569

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:11 AM
To: Michael Powell
Subject: Illegal Dish Network Business Practice

Commissioners:
I'm writing to seek your help in what I and many others consider an
unfair (maybe illegal) business practice at Dish Network. I am an owner
of a Dish 921 integrated HD DVR satellite and OTA receiver. Since it's
inception this unit has been plagued with many problems one of them 
that
was until recently the integrated Program Guide did not have 
information
on OTA channels even though the unit was sold as having this 
capability.
Recently Dish released a software upgrade to the unit which fixed the
problem, however in fixing the problem Dish now requires subscribers to
pay an additional $5.99/month to receive local channels from the
satellite. Most customers including myself purchased the unit because 
it
has the ability to receive local channels OTA, we don't need and don't
want local channels from the satellite which are not HD.
Customers with the 921 have been paying a fee of $4.99/month (DVR fee)
to Dish in order to get the Guide information, now they are charging an
additional $5.99 just to add about 6 channels of local guide
information. This is outrageous. Other customers who do not have DVR
capability use a Dish 811 receiver to get integrated satellite and OTA
HD. The Dish 811 program guide has information for local channels
integrated and these customers are not required to subscribe to the
satellite locals or pay the $5.99/month fee.
I am seeking your help to determine if Dish's policy of double charging
921 customers for Guide information while providing this information at
no charge to 811 owners violates the law. Your help is appreciated.


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## boylehome

If you can get dish to have janet expose an item, then the fcc will kick it in gear


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## FaxMan

I just noticed on my new statement that the charge for locals is now $0.00.

I've recently switched to AEP so I'm not sure if that was part of the deal or perhaps something they are doing to mitigate the requirement for locals for OTA guide.

I also received a new subscriber prospecting flier in the mail that indicates free locals.

Anybody else seeing this?


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## n0qcu

If you look closely at your bill you'll see you're paying $82.99 for AEP (its 77.99 without locals)


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## FaxMan

n0qcu said:


> If you look closely at your bill you'll see you're paying $82.99 for AEP (its 77.99 without locals)


I knew it was too good to be true. I do all on-line billing.

Here is what it looks like:

New Monthly Charge(s) 01/10 to 02/09 
DISH NETWORK DVR SERVICEFEE 0.0 
DIGITAL HOME PLAN WITH AMERICA'S EVERYTHING PAK,3 RCVR 97.99 
LOCALS 0.0 
ADDL RECEIVER ACCESS FEE 4.99 
FOX NETWORK 1.5

Unfortunately, it doesn't break out. Thanks for the info.


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## Sundance

It's to bad we are such a small group because I'm sure with all the lies and misinformation and generally being jerked around we 921 owners have had to endure we would have grounds for a class action suite.


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## glenn z

Sundance said:


> It's to bad we are such a small group because I'm sure with all the lies and misinformation and generally being jerked around we 921 owners have had to endure we would have grounds for a class action suite.


The only people who benefit from class action suits are the attorneys. You would end up with 3 free PPV movies or something of similar value.


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## murphy43

glenn z said:


> The only people who benefit from class action suits are the attorneys. You would end up with 3 free PPV movies or something of similar value.


 :lol: :lol: So True


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## DonLandis

There is only one way to resolve this. The FCC was obviously not; and, a class action suit is futile. CE is such an expert at litigation. I wonder why.

The only real power is for all who are dissatisfied with Dish Network's new customer policy of you feeding the pig is to just move on to his competition. Whatever you find works, cable, D* or V* but move on. When enough people stop complaining and just give them the same reason when they shut off their service will DishNetwork do something to recover their real losses. 
People stay with DishNetwork for a reason that is usually personal. These reasons are enough to counter all the complaints they have. I am fortunate in that I don't need them. But I did spend $1000 on this 921 and hate to see it go on the shelf. Plus, I have a 6000 that has an even more expensive 169Time mod added that I like to keep as it is the only way I have to tape record certain HDTV programs. While I am slowly moving to HDTIVO archiving as opposed to DVHS tape, I will have to exercise my personal reasons for keeping my account open. Most likely it will be just the HDTV pack and two receivers active. That should reduce my Dish Network bill by $80 a month. For now that's about all I can do that works for me. With VOOM and DirecTV I really don't have to add any services unless I want to TIVO some of the basic channels. 
Some of you can do without Dish when you switch, but I suspect most will just stay on and continue to complain as the cost of switching exceeds the anger factor over how they have treated you. At any rate, everyone needs to take a good hard look at his service and decide if it is really worth staying. 
Let me just say this- If it's a DVR for HDTV you want, you really don't understand what you are missing when you are sticking to the 921. It was a great deal, I believe, when it was the only game in town, but since the HDTIVO was released, making the decision to go to DishNetwork's 921, is really not a smart move.


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## ctdish

I also have a Dish 6000 and 921. At renewal time I am planning on on just subscribing to the HD package with the Dish 6000. I will get my basics and Movies from other providers. I mostly use the 921 to timeshift over the air HD, so I will keep it unsubscribed for that. John


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## seadoo

ctdish said:


> I also have a Dish 6000 and 921. At renewal time I am planning on on just subscribing to the HD package with the Dish 6000. I will get my basics and Movies from other providers. I mostly use the 921 to timeshift over the air HD, so I will keep it unsubscribed for that. John


Curious: If you decide to cancel Dish can you still use the 921 for time shifting of OTA HD?


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## passing_ships

seadoo said:


> Curious: If you decide to cancel Dish can you still use the 921 for time shifting of OTA HD?


 I would think that as long as you are locked to a satellite signal, it should work fine.


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## Bradtothebone

seadoo said:


> Curious: If you decide to cancel Dish can you still use the 921 for time shifting of OTA HD?


Before I activated my 921, I hooked everything up and used it for OTA only for one weekend. The DVR functions DID NOT WORK AT ALL. Anyone else have a different experience?

Brad


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## jckey

Let's just call DISH "pork"....


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## bluegreg

I am pretty dissapointed with dish not making the 921 work as promised. all I want is ota guide data and I dont want to pay! why cant they just do that?


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## dghdtv

hey guys, I would love to have my local channel guide data

I would even pay $5 a month to get it

problem is, dish wont sell me my locals cause they dont carry ABC, NBC, or CBS in my market, so I guess I just LOSE ???

also, my FOX comes from a market they do carry, but, since I dont live in that market, they cant sell it to me... YEA



I pick up all HDTV locals from my hometown of Beaumont and the 8 channels from Houston (70miles away)

I wish they would just sell me Houston locals, so I could get guide data and dual record 


AHHHHH


how can they do this to me, no guide data unless you pay for locals, oh yea, you cant pay for locals, so piss off


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## Mike D-CO5

I live in Beaumont and I "moved " to Houston. I can't get any digital ota locals from Houston. IF you "moved" your service address to Houston then you would get ota guide information for the channels you do receive ,from Houston. Just call up and give an address in Houston and add a apartment number to it and you will have Houston locals in an instant. Just keep your billing address the same as your real address. Then you will receive Houston locals including WB and UPN for the same price as the networks 5.99. No need for superstations. 

You must have a deep fringe antenna from Hell if you can receive locals from Houston. By the way a tv guide could help you if you need to know what is playing on our locals in Beaumont. Not really much difference between Houston and Beaumont on network primetime and daytime shows.


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## dghdtv

I never thought of that, 

the antenna Im using to get the locals from Houston is just the $30 UHF only antenna from Radio Shack

I do live on Major Dr. so no much of Beaumont is in the way.

Thanks for the advice, it will be interesting to see the difference between Dish's HD locals picture quality and what I can get over the air

I'll keep ya posted


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## dghdtv

well, I moved to Houston today, the air is a little dirtier, but the local channel guide works great here


one question I have, are there any network stations broadcast in HDTV? if so, are they extra?


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## SimpleSimon

dghdtv said:


> it will be interesting to see the difference between Dish's HD locals picture quality and what I can get over the air


E* does NOT have HD locals. They do carry CBS in HD if you qualify.


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## tnsprin

SimpleSimon said:


> E* does NOT have HD locals. They do carry CBS in HD if you qualify.


Local for those in NY and LA.


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## NukeBug

Add me to the list of COMPLETELY dissatisfied people.... I bought this piece of junk for $1000 after having DTV and Tivo and loving it for years, but I had heard that Dish had better services and the 921 SOUNDED awesome, but I have since learned the hard way that it is NOT ready for prime-time. AS SOON as my 1 year contract (that Dish tried to change to 2 years, even though the contract clearly states 1 year) is over, I will be RUNNING back to DTV and my beloved, well behaved, works without a flaw, TIVO! Hell, I have my separate TiVo running on a 311 and it works without a hitch, just not HD! and it is 4 YEARS OLD!
AND it gets the OTA guide data WITH NO EXTRA CHARGE, CHARLIE!

I get SO frustrated when I just want to record something or get out of something that I have recorded and it locks up or I have to use a 'work around'....

If this is how Charlie treats the people that pay the most up front and monthly, then I sure don't want to stay with them......


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## SimpleSimon

tnsprin said:


> Local for those in NY and LA.


 Ah - yeah - CBS only. Two markets only.


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## Michael P

SimpleSimon said:


> Ah - yeah - CBS only. Two markets only.


CBS HD is available to more than just two markets. It's available to anyone in a DMA whos CBS is owned "O&O" by CBS. The list is on E* website. KTVT is a CBS (Viacom) O&O in Dallas (I know it doesn't help you folks in Beaumont). It's the NYC feed or the LA feed, but legal to O&O markets (unless another CBS is at least grade B to your location - even if it's not in your DMA).
:nono:


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## n0qcu

Michael P said:


> CBS HD is available to more than just two markets. It's available to anyone in a DMA whos CBS is owned "O&O" by CBS. The list is on E* website. KTVT is a CBS (Viacom) O&O in Dallas (I know it doesn't help you folks in Beaumont). It's the NYC feed or the LA feed, but legal to O&O markets (unless another CBS is at least grade B to your location - even if it's not in your DMA).
> :nono:


YES, but its only LOCAL to NY/LA - two markets


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## Michael P

n0qcu said:


> YES, but its only LOCAL to NY/LA - two markets


But who cares. Unless your local station is doing the news in HD (like the FOX O&O here in Cleveland) you are not missing anything. Watch your CBS local in SD for news and NY/LA for the HD network content.


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## William_K_F

So now with the SHVERA letter, we are forced to choose between keeping grandfathering of distant networks versus keep guide info for our 921? Do you think dish will reconsider forcing us to subscribe since we can't if we want the distant nets?


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## William_K_F

I'm talking on the phone with Dish HD tech support and the CSR says that if the locals are streaming info on what they are broadcasting, it will show up in the guide.

Is this true? I get no guide info now that my dish locals are gone and I get the San Francisco OTA, there are many, I would think at least one of them would send the info. My guess is that Dish 921 doesn't decode it and this claim by Dish is false.


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## Guest

I believe it to be false.


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## Eagles

gpflepsen said:


> I believe it to be false.


More like uninformed CSR. This seems to be the case with most Dish CSR's and advanced techs when it comes to the 921. What's even more fustrating to me is that some of them actually believe they know what they are talking about when their info is clearly wrong. DBSTALK should be required reading for "All" Dish CSR's :lol:


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## madbrain

Many HD channels broadcast program information in the bay area. I know, because I have another HD OTA tuner, a Samsung SIR-T165, and it shows guide information for them.

I don't subscribe to the Dish locals. On the 921, those same OTA channels always show up with "no information available" .


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## boylehome

madbrain said:


> I don't subscribe to the Dish locals. On the 921, those same OTA channels always show up with "no information available" .


I do subscribe to the Dish locals. I have noticed that there are frequently EGP data entries that say, "no information available." This makes me believe that it is a problem at the dish end since you do get the data through an unrelated tuner. So I'm paying for information that isn't there. Thanks for the info.

John


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## ntexasdude

gboot sent an inquiry about all this to the FCC on Dec 14th and posted a reply on Dec 27th. They basically told him it wasn't their problem but thanks for inquiring.

I was reading through most of the 10 pages of postings about this subject and thought maybe this is something the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) would be interested in. Has anybody submitted a formal complaint to them? It does seem grossly unfair for some of the posters in this thread. I also wonder if maybe the national BBB could help. www.bbb.org

I wasn't really too worried about all this until I read the posts and then I kinda got mad too and started wondering just what kind of company I have signed up with?

Just wondering

Robert


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## xsailor

I just sent an email for the upcoming Tech Chat requesting that this "problem" be fixed. I recommend everyone do the same and maybe, just maybe, they will address the issue on the chat.


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## Kagato

The FTC Act does mandate that companies provide products as stated in their marketing materials. The FTC is noted as being on the war path about holding companies to task to the FTC Act. Charlie is not likely to get a shield from the administration as other companies may, as E* and Charlie isn't exactly republican material.

The problem is,does a Charlie Chat, or Tech Chat count as marketing material? Did you buy something based on it? 

That also being said, E*, in my opinion, is in violation of the FTC Act when it comes to Dishwire. Anyone who purchased a 921 before E* changed marketing materials could most likely file with the FTC. Given enough complaints, E* would likely lose. I know I still have a copy of the original 921 doc I used in order to determine if I'd purchase or not.


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## boylehome

SimpleSimon said:


> E* does NOT have HD locals. They do carry CBS in HD if you qualify.


I think there should be a law that if the local networks affiliates don't provide the networks HD programming, then the Satellite/Cable folks should be required to carry these networks and provide their HD programming to those who don't get it. Seems like something about the latest legislation kinda covers this. What was it the White Area or White Zone?


----------

