# New HDTV Now New HR24 Crazies



## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

*PROBLEM SUMMARY*
Installed a new 2012 Sony KDL-46HX750 1080p, Internet Ready, 3D HDTV yesterday morning. Now on the second day some irregularities directly related to audio from our HR24 are occuring. These problems apply only to NBC & ABC network Sat & OTA channels.

*DETAILS*
- During some Dallas ABC & NBC network commercials highs audio frequencies are absent. One commerical will have this audio problem yet the next is perfect. Then the next two commericals may or may not have the same exact problem. When the show returns the audio is generally fine. The next commericals repeat the problems but more than likely not in the same sequence. There is no disernable pattern.

- To make this even stranger once when the broadcast on the same network went to the next show that shows highs immediately went away. This does not always occur. Change the network channel to networks other than Dallas ABC or NBC then the audio problems go away.

- The problem exists on both DTV HR24 Sat and via DTV AM21N OTA.

- On the HR24 Native is Off and the only Resolution checked on is 1080p. Note: The problems have also occurred with Native On and all Resolutions checked.

- On the Sony KDL-46HX750 the Scene Mode is set to Auto (24p sync).

*CABLE ROUTING*
- HR24/AM21N audio is routed from the HR24 via a Monoprice Premium Optical cable to my Denon AVR 987.

- HR24/AM21N Video is routed from the HR24 via a Monster Premium HDMI directly to the Sony HDTV. This configuration was implemented after having HDMI handshake issues when the brand new HR24's HDMI had 'handshake' problems with the Denon AVR 987.

- On the prior Sony HDTV the HDMI's plugged in horizontally. On this new SONY KDL-46HR750 the HDMI's plug in vertically. The two HDMI cables are very stiff premium Monster brand.

- FYI, the Blu-Ray & HD-DVD HDMI's are routed to the AVR then to the HDTV via one HDMI.

*POWER UP SEQUENCE*
The devices power up sequence are TV-AVR-HR24 with a delay so the AVR is fully up.

Hope you can provide some insight and solution. This is a very annoying and unacceptable problem.


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## Jerry_K (Oct 22, 2006)

Had the same sort of problems. Had to turn off Native to fix it. Pioneer receiver. Sansui TV. Does it on HR34 too Pioneer receiver Sharp TV. Had to turn off Native. Sure hate to have the DVR doing the scaling.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

I turned native off and unchecked all resolutions except 1080p. No change, problems persist.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

Are you sure this isn't just a DD 2.0/5.1 issue? When a channel sends out 2.0 as a 5.1 signal (5.1 signal with only sound encoded on the front left and right channels) there will be a big difference in sound since your center channel is no longer used for anything.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Beerstalker said:


> Are you sure this isn't just a DD 2.0/5.1 issue? When a channel sends out 2.0 as a 5.1 signal (5.1 signal with only sound encoded on the front left and right channels) there will be a big difference in sound since your center channel is no longer used for anything.


This crossed my mind as well. But Dallas is a large market, and major net affils in even medium markets typically simulate 5.1 from 2.0 sources (using essentially a pro version of ProLogic IIx) so that they are sending 5.1 all of the time. This solves the problems of mutes at remap change points and the issue of audio collapsing to stereo on home rigs set up for 5.1.

But assume for the moment that they are not doing this. If so, the solution is to program your AVR to do it instead (default to ProLogic when 2.0 is sent, but pass true 5.1). That remaps 2.0 dialog (anything that has essentially equal volume in Ls and Rs) to Center, and sends a 90-degree phase shifted signal to Lr and Rr for sounds unequal in volume from Ls to Rs.

You can usually tell what they are doing if your AVR has a 5.1/DD indicator light. See if that goes on and off and tracks with the audio issue.

If we assume the problem is elsewhere, there seems to be no clear answer. I would post in the reception thread for your market on AVS Forums and see if others can verify this issue.

One thing it likely is not, is a native on-off situation. That deals with the metadata flags for pixel maps and what gear is responsible for rescaling, and it has no connection at all to the audio stream or its metadata.

And I think there is a pattern. There is always a pattern. You may just not have nailed down exactly what the pattern is yet. Unexplained science appears as magic, and undefined patterns appear as random. There is no true magic, and there is no true random.

<edit> just reread the original post, and it seems as if the OP is not using an AVR, but the audio in the TV only. That might explain why the issue appeared when the new TV got there. It also complicates troubleshooting or fixing the mapping issues, should that actually be the problem. Sounds like it might be time to either buy an AVR or start using an AVR as the audio center of this setup. See what AVS says first, and call the stations and ask them (Engineering dept) if they simulate 5.1 DD all the time.

It also could be something as simple as the speakers in the TV or in the stereo system wired out of phase. Always tie a knot in both ends of the positive for all speaker wires to keep them straight, and check that the woofer cone moves toward you (remove the speaker grille or use a flashlight) when you place a 9v battery across the amp end of the wire when connected only to the speaker (+ on positive). If the cone moves away from you, that speaker system or its wiring is out of phase. A 10-year old makes a great assistant for these tests, BTW.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

TomCat said:


> This crossed my mind as well. But Dallas is a large market, and major net affils in even medium markets typically simulate 5.1 from 2.0 sources (using essentially a pro version of ProLogic IIx) so that they are sending 5.1 all of the time. This solves the problems of mutes at remap change points and the issue of audio collapsing to stereo on home rigs set up for 5.1.
> 
> But assume for the moment that they are not doing this. If so, the solution is to program your AVR to do it instead (default to ProLogic when 2.0 is sent, but pass true 5.1). That remaps 2.0 dialog (anything that has essentially equal volume in Ls and Rs) to Center, and sends a 90-degree phase shifted signal to Lr and Rr for sounds unequal in volume from Ls to Rs.
> 
> ...


I believe a bit more detailed explanation of the solution is due.


Yes I have an AVR. A Denon AVR 987.


All Infinity Alpha speakers, configured for 5.1, were examined for defects. None were found. All speaker connections are in phase.


The HDMI connected to the Directv HR24-500 is routed into the Denon AVR. A master HDMI connects the Denon AVR to the Sony HDTV. Audio for all components (Directv Recvr, Panasonic Blu-Ray and Denon CD/SACD/DVD) is processed by the Denon AVR and routed to the Infinity speakers.


No audio is emitted by the SONY HDTV. The Sony HDTV does not transfer audio to any external source.


As I searched for a solution I talked with Denon, Directv and NBC & ABC Dallas affiliates.


Both NBC & ABC affiliates broadcast commericals in either true 5.1 or simulated 5.1 thus AVR's should not switch to a different audio format during commericals.


The ABC Engineer also has a Denon AVR and stated after connecting new equipment all components, including the power center should be powered down. The power center shoul be unplugged from the wall power outlet. This shutdown allows the Denon AVR, in particular, to reset. This reset solved the problem.

Thanks for your comments. The information was very interesting.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

That's helpful, if not definitive.

It is best to put aside what is not likely causing the problem. We know it is both OTA through DTV and DVB/sat through DTV. Do we see the problem with OTA directly into your TV? How about when using headphones on the AVR?

What have you heard from AVS forums so far?

Your new info indicates that the Denon is at fault. While Denon makes kick-ass AVRs, they have a history of issues with HDMI. Be sure you are updated to the latest firmware.

If your TV can pass HDMI/5.1 to the line outputs, you might want to try connecting differently. Instead of connecting stuff to the Denon, connect through the TV first, and take a single output to the Denon, either HDMI or optical.

This actually has a lot of advantages. Modern FP TVs have inherent delay in the display, and they delay their audio to compensate for lipsync errors. If you connect around the display instead, you get no delay benefit, and must rely on the delay circuitry in the Denon.

This also allows you to switch all A/V sources using the TV remote, and all audio-only sources using the Denon remote, which is a lot more intuitive. It also opens up more inputs on the Denon.

Best of all, it might act as a workaround for this problem.

There is no real advantage to alleged video processing of digital video in an AVR anyway. PQ is locked in until you get to the TV in any case, and unless the AVR decodes and re-encodes, it won't be able to modify the PQ in any way, let alone improve it, and the last thing you want at consumer-level bit rates is another decode/re-encode stage, as at this bit rate it can only lead to large rounding errors and associated artifacts (which is why no consumer device actually processes HD video in the digital domain or converts it to the analog domain for processing--they may claim "100% digital processing", but that is really digital signal _handling_, not actual digital processing of the video information within the digital domain, which is impractical).

But many people have been fooled into thinking that their AVR can improve digital PQ by manufacturers who want to get you to believe just that. Unless binary math is performed on the coefficients representing each pixel, PQ will stay exactly the same as it was when it left the uplink or broadcast tower. And if math is done, it is nearly impossible, especially at a consumer level, to mount any sort of improvement without running the risk of actually making the PQ worse, which is why that isn't customarily done at the consumer level.

But what _is_ customary is convincing potential buyers who are disadvantaged by not really understanding how this works, that there actually is some sort of digital magic at work. Sadly, there really isn't, regardless of what they typically seem to be claiming.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

TO ALL,

You may not believe what I'm about to state but it is the truth. My wife even witnessed this weirder than weird event.

Just to see what would happen I went into the HR24's "Favorite Channels" section and unchecked Channels 5 & 5-1 (NBC Dallas) along with Channels 8 & 8-1 (ABC Dallas). All four channels were no longer listed in the GUIDE. While on another station I mistakenly pressed "5". Unbelievably Channel 5 appears! The same with Channel 8. Saddly the audio problem was still on Ch 5. I did not really check out Ch 8.

Now, you should know that we live on top of a hill and are in somewhat of a straight line with the Dallas TV towers that are about 10 miles west of us.

How could this happen and could it some how be associated audio problem?


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

1953 said:


> TO ALL,
> 
> You may not believe what I'm about to state but it is the truth. My wife even witnessed this weirder than weird event.
> 
> ...


It is not associated at all.

The favorites list is just a list. It has nothing to do with what you can receive or what local market database the DVR is programmed for. If you have a channel 5 in your database and are in range of a channel 5, pressing 5 tunes you to that frequency if that is the physical frequency, and tunes you to the virtual frequency listed in the database if 5 is mapped from a different physical channel (which redirects the tuner to the real physical channel but displays the virtual channel, channel 5). That's the way its supposed to work. Deleting it from a list does not change what is in the database or what channel the tuner will go to when you press a channel number associated with that database.

"5", the SD version of 5-1, is also mapped in your DVR. Actually, all channels are mapped; you see 249 for Comedy Central, for instance, but that is a mapped number for a particular frequency slot on a particular transponder on a particular polarity of a particular satellite, and has nothing at all to do with the arbitrary number 249. The number is only there for you to be able to find it. 249 on DISH probably is mapped to an entirely different original service.

Here's an example of how mapping works.

DVB and ATSC use MPEG transport streams, which can carry multiple programs on a transponder or OTA channel. All of the packets from the different programs per TV channel or per transponder are jumbled together and interleaved into a single transport stream via a multiplexer. The way it keeps them straight is by mapping each elemental stream to a number, which is a similar sort of mapping system. It uses a PID, or program identifier, which is a 8-bit or single-byte unique code placed in the metadata of the header of the elemental stream's packets. For instance, the PID for the first (English) audio pair for the primary service in ATSC is 52 in base 10 (which has a 8-bit binary word, 00110100, representing it in the metadata). The multiplexer also creates and sends along a PMT, or program map table, which is sort of like a scorecard that lets the eventual decoder know which PIDs belong to what service.

Just like we know we can find Comedy Central if we tune the number 249 on DTV, the ATSC STB knows from consulting the PMT that it can find the audio track associated with the primary broadcast channel by parsing out PID 52 from the packet headers, and using that identifier to know which packets contain the audio track to associate with the video, which has its own PID of 49.

After reception and just before the local decoder (or HDD in a OTA DVR), the demux, once instructed to parse out that particular program (told by the user to go to channel "5.1" instead of "5.2" or "5.3", for instance), then sorts out all of the packets with a PID of 49 and reconstructs them into a bit stream that is sent to the decoder (or HDD), and sorts out all of the packets with a PID of 52 and interleaves those as well, discarding everything else in the main stream. Then the decoder reverses the encoding process, parses out and decodes each audio and video packet, and spits out the digital audio and video for a single program (what is on "5.1").

Here's an even simpler example.

In 1939(?) the OTA channel associated with the frequency 55.25 MHz (for the video carrier) or the band of 54 to 60 MHz, was mapped to the number 2, as part of standardization. When we select channel 2 on a recent analog TV, it doesn't tune to "2", it "consults the map"* and tunes to 55.25 MHz.

(*the old school version of "consulting the map" for older analog TVs was to physically insert a different particular tuning coil for each particular channel into the heterodyne circuitry changing the inductance and causing that particular RF frequency to convert to the fixed IF frequency. Channels above and below were filtered out using a bandpass filter, leaving just the tuned channel to eventually be demodulated to baseband audio and video. That's where the moniker "tuned" actually comes from. Significantly different technology, but the concept of mapping was very much the same.)

So the channel number is just a name; a pointer. A rose is a rose is a rose.


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## usnret (Jan 16, 2009)

What great lessons this page has given!!!!! Thank you TomCat!!!


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Thanks TC. I have a plan of elimination so first thing Monday morning I'll be getting started.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

UPDATE

During an event (the audio problem on Ch 5) I changed the sound field to 5 Channel Stereo. *The result was perfectly normal 5 Channel Stereo. *To further test during another event I changed the HR24 from Dolby Digital to PCM. *Again perfect 5 Channel Stereo.

Yesterday I ran the HDMI from the HR24 to the Sony HX750. *I turned up the TV's volume and watched Channel 5 for about an hour. *During that time there were no events. *

Today I will change out my HDMI cables to rule out a cable problem.

The last test will be disconnecting the sat and OTA coaxials from the power center and run them directly to the HR24 & *AM21N.

Thanks for your continuing help.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Update 10:04 a.m. Apr 2

Changed all HDMI cables to Monoprice Premium 24AWG HS. Channel 5 NBC audio problem is still present.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

I still think you are having the issue I talked about earlier. You local channel is sending everything out as Dolby Digital 5.1 all of the time. However, when they are getting some content that is only available with stereo audio they are not using Pro-logic to simulate 5.1 from the stereo track. Instead they are just sending out the stereo audio on the front left and front right channels, and they are sending out blank signals with no sound to the center, surround left, surround right, and subwoofer channels.

Since this is still being reported to your AVR as a Dolby Digital 5.1 signal (which it is since it contains empty information for the other channels) your AVR just passes it through as it is. It does not try to use Pro-Logic 2 on the signal.

There is nothing you can do to fix this. You can choose to turn off dolby digital on your DirecTV receiver and just have it send out stereo sound to your AVR, and turn on Pro-Logic 2 on your AVR. This will get you surround sound, but it will be simulated surround sound and not as good as proper dedicated surround sound you would get using Dolby Digital.

You need to contact your local channels and talk to the sound engineers and explain to them that they are not handling stereo audio properly. Hopefully they will work with you to get it fixed. We have had the same issue with some of my local channels in the past.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> I still think you are having the issue I talked about earlier. You local channel is sending everything out as Dolby Digital 5.1 all of the time. However, when they are getting some content that is only available with stereo audio they are not using Pro-logic to simulate 5.1 from the stereo track. Instead they are just sending out the stereo audio on the front left and front right channels, and they are sending out blank signals with no sound to the center, surround left, surround right, and subwoofer channels.
> 
> Since this is still being reported to your AVR as a Dolby Digital 5.1 signal (which it is since it contains empty information for the other channels) your AVR just passes it through as it is. It does not try to use Pro-Logic 2 on the signal.
> 
> ...


Since this mornings update all of my additional tests proved fruitless.

Beerstalker, I now completely agree with your assessment. If NBC can't do something to solve this issue we will simply switch to another sound field during effected NBC programs (not commericals).

I'm very tired now so it's time to end this project.

1953


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

1953 said:


> Since this mornings update all of my additional tests proved fruitless.
> 
> Beerstalker, I now completely agree with your assessment. If NBC can't do something to solve this issue we will simply switch to another sound field during effected NBC programs (not commericals).
> 
> ...


I don't have the same AVR, but my Sony has an auto setting, that changes during commercials when there isn't DD 5.1, and then back when there is.
This was what I thought was happening/needing from the first time I started reading about this on which every forum that was.
"Simulated" isn't that bad here, when there isn't a Dolby version there.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I don't have the same AVR, but my Sony has an auto setting, that changes during commercials when there isn't DD 5.1, and then back when there is.
> This was what I thought was happening/needing from the first time I started reading about this on which every forum that was.
> "Simulated" isn't that bad here, when there isn't a Dolby version there.


The problem is that Ch 5 is broadcasting non Dolby Digital in simulated Dolby Digital. That simulated Dolby Digital is shown as Dolby Digital on my Denon AVR 987.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

1953 said:


> The problem is that Ch 5 is broadcasting non Dolby Digital in simulated Dolby Digital. That simulated Dolby Digital is shown as Dolby Digital on my Denon AVR 987.


Sounds like a real PITA that falls on your Ch 5 to resolve. 
"I mean we do have standards", just for this. 
It's Dolby [of some form] or it's not.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Sounds like a real PITA that falls on your Ch 5 to resolve.
> "I mean we do have standards", just for this.
> It's Dolby [of some form] or it's not.


One of their broadcast engineers called back the first time. That was last week. He did not call back this time. :nono:


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Beerstalker said:


> I still think you are having the issue I talked about earlier. You local channel is sending everything out as Dolby Digital 5.1 all of the time. However, when they are getting some content that is only available with stereo audio they are not using Pro-logic to simulate 5.1 from the stereo track. Instead they are just sending out the stereo audio on the front left and front right channels, and they are sending out blank signals with no sound to the center, surround left, surround right, and subwoofer channels.
> 
> Since this is still being reported to your AVR as a Dolby Digital 5.1 signal (which it is since it contains empty information for the other channels) your AVR just passes it through as it is. It does not try to use Pro-Logic 2 on the signal....


 Speaking as a Broadcast Engineer, I find this doubtful.

Virtually all of the equipment available for stations for the last 5-6 years that is used to either pass 5.1 or simulate 5.1 from 2.0 uses a Pro Logic IIx variety of simulation. The very reason they do this is to prevent the "2.0 collapse" issue in 5.1 setups, and to prevent muting at the switch points between 5.1 and 2.0 programs or events.

DFW is a pretty large market, and it would be highly unusual that two of the big 4 network stations would not use equipment of this caliber. sending the 5.1 flag to the consumers' DD decoders all of the time is nearly impossible to do without the equipment used to do that also truly sending all 6 channels.

But nothing is absolutely impossible. Odds are exceptionally low, but yes, two top-market crack Engineering staffs could have each done something to mess this up at two different stations in a single market. I'd bet heavily against that. Or, they are such a large market that they bought their gear early on and it is not as capable as modern gear or has some sort of setup flaw. Again, doubtful.

But this is why it is so important to check with other viewers in the area, either directly or using the reception forum at AVS. If you talk to the Chief at either station, tell them you suspect that it seems like you are not getting all 6 channels when they are simulating 5.1, and then you should have a direct answer. Ask if you are the only one complaining.

To really nail this down, get a free copy of TS Reader and watch the bit stream in PID 52. You can't parse out the 6 channels without a decoder, but you might be able to see a significant change when the audio changes from sounding good to sounding bad. If they are sending 4 of those channels with nothing but null bits, that should be discernable (the stream will probably be at 448 kbps and if there is no audio in 4 of those channels, It will be stuffed with lots of null bits to keep the rate at 448).


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Just when you thing it's time to put up with a problem it just gets worst. Last night ch 27 which is owned and operated by CBS Dallas, partial ch 5 programing and a program on the Audience channel came down with the audio plague. Got up this morning the audio issues had either in part gone away where on fewer channels.

Now I am considering buying a new AVR just to see if that solves this pain in the ass issue. Will decide by tonight.

:grin:


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## Papa J (Nov 26, 2007)

Your Denon won't pass 3D either, in case you are interested. Also, it is less than ideal to go the other route and use the tv as the switching device and output audio from it to the tv, unless it has an HDMI output. A digital optical cable will not pass some of the newer audio from your BD DVD player like Dolby True HD and DTS Master Audio.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Papa J said:


> Your Denon won't pass 3D either, in case you are interested. Also, it is less than ideal to go the other route and use the tv as the switching device and output audio from it to the tv, unless it has an HDMI output. A digital optical cable will not pass some of the newer audio from your BD DVD player like Dolby True HD and DTS Master Audio.


Thank you for your advice. HDMI from HR24 to Denon. HDMI from Blu-Ray to Denon. Master HDMI from Denon to Sony HX450.


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## Papa J (Nov 26, 2007)

"Papa J" said:


> Your Denon won't pass 3D either, in case you are interested. Also, it is less than ideal to go the other route and use the tv as the switching device and output audio from it to the DENON, unless it has an HDMI output. A digital optical cable will not pass some of the newer audio from your BD DVD player like Dolby True HD and DTS Master Audio.


I edited my earlier post to replace the word tv with DENON. I understand your current connection setup and was trying to pass on some information I learned recently when I bought a new Sony TV. It might come in handy as you seek out and hook up a new receiver. Best of luck in solving the problem you are having.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Papa J said:


> I edited my earlier post to replace the word tv with DENON. I understand your current connection setup and was trying to pass on some information I learned recently when I bought a new Sony TV. It might come in handy as you seek out and hook up a new receiver. Best of luck in solving the problem you are having.


Thank you very much. Being in Desoto I am not very far away from you. Have had any such issues? I thing it very odd that mine started after hooking up our new HX750. I can't possibly figure out how that could have anything to do with the audio issue at hand. Another puzzlement is am I the only one in DFW with this problem. Of course, all manufactures of my equipment blame it on the broadcasters! Again, if that is so others should have like problems. I'm too much worry into this matter. Time to laugh and be happy.

Again, thank you Papa J.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Just created a fast and easy to use workaround by reconfiguring my Harmony One to have "5 Channel Stereo (5 CH) and Dolby Digital (DD) commands on the first row of "Watch TV" activity touch screen. If a show we want to watch has the audio issue we'll simply switch to 5 Channel then switch back to DD.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

*PLEASE NOTE: I appeal to any member who has good contacts at Directv to assist us by referring them to my thread. Many long time Directv customers are well aware of how difficult it is to get Directv to own up to some problems. Thank you.*

This morning I received the folloing reply to a duplicate of my original opening post regrading my mystery audio problem over on the Directv Technical Forum.

_Quote:
"Originally Posted by jsbatch
I am experiencing the same problems with my HR24 fed to an Onkyo TR-NX809 AVR. See this thread from more information =

http://forums.directv.com/pe/action/forums/displaythread?rootPostID=11047273&cha

This problem is a RECENT occurrence for DTV. I have the same AV equipment configuration/settings for over a year with no problems with DD5.1 audio output - until recently.

DTV has an internal technical issue causing this problem and they know it and openly admit it - but they aren't FIXING the problem."

_


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Yellow isn't the best choice :nono:


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## dod1450 (Dec 16, 2009)

I agree. I am unable to read it. Maybe the user had nothing to say with the color choice.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

dod1450 said:


> I agree. I am unable to read it. Maybe the user had nothing to say with the color choice.


Thanks for the headsup on the text color. As you can see I have taken away the optional color. Please reread.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

dod1450 said:


> I agree. I am unable to read it. Maybe the user had nothing to say with the color choice.


I've noticed many people are effected by that color and have difficulty reading anything posted with it. My eyes must be different because for me it is clear and easily read. It says-Please Note: I appeal to any member who has good contacts at DirecTV to assist us by referring them to my thread. Many long time DirecTV customers are well aware of how difficult it is to get DirecTV to own up to some problems. Thank you.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I'd say it may be time to post the AVRs [make and model] that are having this problem, along with the DirecTV receiver.
It would be hard for DirecTV to "fix this", if they're using my equipment, since I don't have the problem.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I'd say it may be time to post the AVRs [make and model] that are having this problem, along with the DirecTV receiver.
> It would be hard for DirecTV to "fix this", if they're using my equipment, since I don't have the problem.


I will write something up as soon as possible. Unfortunately I'm not at my best today. Thanks and have a pleasent holiday weekend.

Louis


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

I checked with a colleague who lives in the DFW market. Since this is not a controversial issue and since he is anonymous here, I am hoping he will not mind me quoting him publicly.


> _...NBC hasn't sent proper audio metadata since the 2006 Olympics, so shows like Leno, Carson, and The Biggest Loser come in flagged 5.1 but with sound only in L/R. Most everything else from the network comes in as 5.1 and goes out as 5.1. Anything not from the network is upmixed to 5.1. KXAS is easily the best station in town in terms of not screwing up what the network gives them.
> 
> ABC has never sent metadata, but I think they now upmix any stereo stuff at the network level so affiliates can just assume 5.1 any time they're running from the network. WFAA upmixes everything not from the network to 5.1. There shouldn't be any audio channel goofiness.
> 
> If you have any specifics I can take a look, I typically have everything from primetime recorded for monitoring purposes._


I have to admit that I am a little bit floored by this (the NBC stuff). I would be ashamed to work for a company that takes such little care in what to me and to the rest of you is a serious matter. I really did not expect this. What he indicates that the ABC affil is doing is probably what all stations should be doing (other than his assertion regarding them never sending metadata, because AC3 doesn't work at all without metadata). I thought that was pretty universal, especially in top-10 markets, but I guess I should not be all that surprised that it is not.

Now by using the terms "NBC" and "ABC", I think he is referring to the local affiliates rather than the networks themselves. Not that networks don't screw up, but this would affect everyone and only a few are complaining.

But then I don't watch the NBC shows he is referring to, and I don't use DD in my setup (I would rather use analog audio because I can get much the same surround quality using PLIIx, and what little I sacrifice in doing that is made up by retaining the ability to do better EQ and better automatic level control). But he will take a look under the hood if we can give him a particular example (a particular airing of a particular show that manifests these issues). I'll leave that up to you. PM me with particulars and I will pass it along.

But it looks like even though the problem exists OTA through the DTV STB, it might be a new DTV problem if some of the posts here are right. I think one question to answer is if this problem exists on these shows when the path is directly to the OTA tuner in the TV (and not using the path through DTV).

Regardless of what the issue is, I think the workaround you have come up with is probably the best solution.


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## Papa J (Nov 26, 2007)

It makes no sense this started only when the op got a new tv or why I don't see the problem as I live I'm the same market. Very confusing.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Papa J said:


> It makes no sense this started only when the op got a new tv or why I don't see the problem as I live I'm the same market. Very confusing.


Confusing indeed, but technical issues are rarely globally felt, and the smaller the subset the less the likelihood of it being fixed, and the longer it takes. You have to have a certain combination of elements for this problem to affect you. Everyone else is blissfully ignorant of there even being a problem.


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## Papa J (Nov 26, 2007)

"TomCat" said:


> Confusing indeed, but technical issues are rarely globally felt, and the smaller the subset the less the likelihood of it being fixed, and the longer it takes. You have to have a certain combination of elements for this problem to affect you. Everyone else is blissfully ignorant of there even being a problem.


The op never experienced the problem before changing to a new tv. Something must have changed on his end for it to show up at that point in time.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Papa J said:


> The op never experienced the problem before changing to a new tv. Something must have changed on his end for it to show up at that point in time.


We'll need the OP to clarify, as there have been a few of his threads here and on other forums, but the cabling may have changed with the new TV.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Papa J said:


> The op never experienced the problem before changing to a new tv. Something must have changed on his end for it to show up at that point in time.


It would seem the problem was caused by installation but since the TV is not used for audio and the problem is confined to network stations we have dismissed the TV. The problem started one day after installing the new Sony.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> We'll need the OP to clarify, as there have been a few of his threads here and on other forums, but the cabling may have changed with the new TV.


Before the new TV the Directv 24-500 HDMI was routed straight to the old TV with an Optical for audio to the AVR. After installing the new TV, including when the audio problem started, that same routing was in use. As part of the elimination process I rerouted the Directv HDMI to the AVR and removed the Optical cable. The problem remained. To double check I went back to the original routing. The problem remained. Then I went again to the HDMI only routing. That is the cable routing today. The problem remains.

By the way, tonight's NBC broadcast of Dateline from 6 to 7 pm CDT had the audio problem throughout the actual show. Some of the commericals during Dateline were good, others were bad.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

So, commercials on our ABC & NBC have sound issues?


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> So, commercials on our ABC & NBC have sound issues?


NBC has the most issues. ABC had some. An independent station owned and operated by the Dallas CBS affiliate had one issue. Because of the many problems on NBC I no longer spend extra time auditing ABC and CBS. That is except for the times when we routinely watch ABC & CBS.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

1953 said:


> Before the new TV the Directv 24-500 HDMI was routed straight to the old TV with an Optical for audio to the AVR. After installing the new TV, including when the audio problem started, that same routing was in use.


I can't see how the TV has any affect then, which suggests [again] it's in the AVR.


> As part of the elimination process I rerouted the Directv HDMI to the AVR and removed the Optical cable. The problem remained. To double check I went back to the original routing. The problem remained. Then I went again to the HDMI only routing. That is the cable routing today. The problem remains.


I'm not surprised optical and HDMI are identical.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

1953 said:


> NBC has the most issues. ABC had some. An independent station owned and operated by the Dallas CBS affiliate had one issue. Because of the many problems on NBC I no longer spent extra time auditing ABC and CBS. That is except for the times when we routinely watch ABC & CBS.


I watched NBC 5 yesterday for 3+ hours live and didn't notice anything unusual. I DVR a lot of Primetime and never notice anything. What should I look for?


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

I just received the following from my thread over on AVS about if changing my current Dennon AVR 987 could solved the problem.

"With my Integra and DTV HDDVR I get DD audio from the front 3 and from time to time from the sub. My audio will drop out when it's a non DD comercial, etc. I was in fact losing sound on my previous Integra DTR 8.2 and upgraded to the 40.2. I only get dialog norm on the receiver when it's on a DD program with no dropouts. A new receiver will be all up to you. It might solve your issues, it might not."


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> I watched NBC 5 yesterday for 3+ hours live and didn't notice anything unusual. I DVR a lot of Primetime and never notice anything. What should I look for?


Muffled audio is the simplest way to describe the sound. Technically, sometimes we may have only or partial audio from the center or just the right & left front surrounds. It varies from instance to instance.


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## Papa J (Nov 26, 2007)

"1953" said:


> Muffled audio is the simplest way to describe the sound. Technically, sometimes we may have only or partial audio from the center or just the right & left front surrounds. It varies from instance to instance.


Page 57 of your DENON manual deals with digital compression being turned on or off. You might want to review that setting. It suggests changing from the default setting if you experience distortion. It would not hurt to change that setting to see if that corrects the problem. If that does not help, I am at a loss of ideas. The DENON has a lot of settings to deal with. I doubt there is anything actually wrong with your receiver but would more likely suspect a setting might be off. I thought my Onkyo was "fun" to set up until I looked at your manual. That thing takes some serious reading.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Papa J said:


> Page 57 of your DENON manual deals with digital compression being turned on or off. You might want to review that setting. It suggests changing from the default setting if you experience distortion. It would not hurt to change that setting to see if that corrects the problem. If that does not help, I am at a loss of ideas. The DENON has a lot of settings to deal with. I doubt there is anything actually wrong with your receiver but would more likely suspect a setting might be off. I thought my Onkyo was "fun" to set up until I looked at your manual. That thing takes some serious reading.


Turned compression from off to on. No change.

L


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

The plague has spread! The very ending of House where the animated guy says "That's some bad hat Harry" was so muffled. My wife gently told me not to worry. :sure:


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Okay folks, do you think there is any chance that replacing my DTV HR24-500 might rid me of this pesty pestilance? 

Oh, a DTV Tech came out today and heard the problem first hand. He was sent by DTV in an effort to appease me. He "O"fficaly noted that I've got everything setup properly and the audio problem indeed exists. Lucky me.


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## Papa J (Nov 26, 2007)

"1953" said:


> Okay folks, do you think there is any chance that replacing my DTV HR24-500 might rid me of this pesty pestilance?
> 
> Oh, a DTV Tech came out today and heard the problem first hand. He was sent by DTV in an effort to appease me. He "O"fficaly noted that I've got everything setup properly and the audio problem indeed exists. Lucky me.


A couple of questions:

Do you see this same problem on what you record and if so, if you replayed the recording repeatedly, would the problem repeat in the exact same place each time?

If you answered yes to the above question, if you played that same recording after bypassing the DENON ( HDMI directly from the HR24 to the tv), do you still hear the problem?


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

*BIG NEWS!*

Recently replaced my six year old Denon AVR 987 with a new 2012 Denon AVR 1912. So far the mystery audio problems with Dallas network affiliates are gone!

I truly appreciate all the help I have received. Hopefully, this is the end. I guess time will tell.


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## Papa J (Nov 26, 2007)

"1953" said:


> BIG NEWS!
> 
> Recently replaced my six year old Denon AVR 987 with a new 2012 Denon AVR 1912. So far the mystery audio problems with Dallas network affiliates are gone!
> 
> I truly appreciate all the help I have received. Hopefully, this is the end. I guess time will tell.


Congratulations on your purchase. I am jealous of the AirPlay.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

1953 said:


> *BIG NEWS!*
> 
> Recently replaced my six year old Denon AVR 987 with a new 2012 Denon AVR 1912. So far the mystery audio problems with Dallas network affiliates are gone!
> 
> I truly appreciate all the help I have received. Hopefully, this is the end. I guess time will tell.


Wonderful as they are, older Denons are notorious for wacky DD and HDMI issues (newer ones likely do not have such issues). We probably should have urged you to update the firmware in the 987 (I thought I did, but my posts reveal that I did not; my mistake). That has typically been a fix for such problems, but hey, you wanted an excuse to get the new one anyway .


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

TomCat said:


> Wonderful as they are, older Denons are notorious for wacky DD and HDMI issues (newer ones likely do not have such issues). We probably should have urged you to update the firmware in the 987 (I thought I did, but my posts reveal that I did not; my mistake). That has typically been a fix for such problems, but hey, you wanted an excuse to get the new one anyway .


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