# Looking for more storage via eSATA? Introducing the TenBox



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

A ways back, I told you that there was a third party vendor creating a new eSATA device.

Well... it is now ready... The TenBox from TenLabs
www.tenbox.net

This unit was built from the bottom up, with the HR20 in mind.
Size, compatibility, performance, ect... all specifically designed with the HR20 in mind.

Hopefully in the next couple weeks... I will be able to provide you a much more indepth look at the TenBox...

The creators of the TenBox are members of this forum... so have at it with your questions, comments, ect....


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Cool.....Nice looking box.

Anxiously awiting more info.


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## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

Holy crap!

Did you see the prices on these things?

MSRP: TB1000: $1199.00
TB1500: $1499.00
TB2000: price not available yet
Re seller prices may vary, but are generally lower than MSRP.


Ouch!

Looks like roll-your-own time!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nice Box .. Thanks for the link Earl


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

now if they would offer black recievers to go with it.....


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Nice looking enclosure, but at those prices it's a little too rich for my blood...


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

I just ordered three. Couldn't beat it at those prices! :goofygrin


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

Just to be sure, it's designed to sit on top of all the vent holes of the HR20, just like it's pictured, right?


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## old7 (Dec 1, 2005)

According to the FAQ:



> Q: CAN THE TENBOX SIT ON TOP OF MY HR20?
> A: The TenBox can sit on top of an HR20-100. We do not recommend putting it on top of the HR20-700 which runs at a higher temperature and can transfer heat to the TenBox.


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

houskamp said:


> now if they would offer black recievers to go with it.....


I must be just the opposite of everybody else (Yeah, that's real different lol). I'd want a silver TenBox!


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

They should change their pictures because they would certainly lead someone to believe that you could place it on top of HR20-700...because that's what they've done.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Just ordered two more. Can't beat this rock bottom price!


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Kapeman said:


> Holy crap!
> 
> Did you see the prices on these things?
> 
> ...


Nice box, waaayyy too much coin for my blood. I'm willing to spend some extra money for "convenience", but this makes a Kum and Go look like a discount store.

I think I'll just pick up a "MyBook 750 gig" as it should do well enough for my needs.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> Just ordered two more. Can't beat this rock bottom price!


I must be ignorant or something. How is this price rock bottom? I don't get it. Are you trying to be cynical?

I do like the box, but you can get 750GB Freeagent for $229 at Costco. It seems to me "price" is not the major attraction.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Dusty said:


> I must be ignorant or something. How is this price rock bottom? I don't get it. Are you trying to be cynical?
> 
> I do like the box, but you can get 750GB Freeagent for $229 at Costco. It seems to me "price" is not the major attraction.


He was being sarcastic...and the unit you suggest is exactly what I'm looking at ...still convenient (plug and pray), and large enough to accommodate my needs.

btw, where did you get the "correct" cable for the Freeagent to the HR20? ...I don't think it comes with one. If you can, please give me where you bought the cable and its part number, so I don't get the wrong thing!

The suggested box is quite "top of the line", and not intended for the more "frugal" among us. As such, it does look exquisite from the specs/performance side. Those for whom price is not an object should be quite pleased at this offering.


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

Hooking up a 500Gig eSATA to mine did the trick for me.

Don't think I'll be need 2 Terabytes any time soon.


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## hadji (Sep 30, 2006)

Not to thread crap, but you can get set up a RAID much much cheaper. 330 hours of High Def.? You would really not have much of a life. Imagine the next update and your HD gets wiped clean(like some here have reported). Man that would make me sick.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

An intriguing product, but I agree with others that the price seems a bit high for what you get. What is not clear to me is whether this box offers any sort of RAID capability. It says it has a RAID controller, but perhaps it's just striping across all the disks? If so, you're in deep trouble if any one of the disks fail.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

Isn't 1TB just 250gb more than 750GB seagate I just bought for $200?


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> Isn't 1TB just 250gb more than 750GB seagate I just bought for $200?


Yes


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

I would love to get the 2TB one but it is way to much money for what it is.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

BMoreRavens said:


> I would love to get the 2TB one but it is way to much money for what it is.


Yes I agree, they look super etc, but the prices seem unealistic unless I am missing something. No doubt a quality box, but....$$ Maybe if my seagate turns out to be junk I will consider one of these. (Still awaiting a cable from newegg for the seagate)


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Lord Vader said:


> I just ordered three. Couldn't beat it at those prices! :goofygrin


I assume you are kidding, as those prices are *VERY EASY*to beat.

You can buy 4 500 GB disks (2TB total) for just over $400, and for less than $200 more, have your choice of a wide wariety RAID eSATA enclosures to give you 2TB of capacity for about half of what Tenbox is charging for only 1TB.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The creators of the TenBox are members of this forum... so have at it with your questions, comments, ect....


Question #1.... How many free ones did you give Earl to get him to promote this astronomically overpriced RAID box? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

Kapeman said:


> Holy crap!
> 
> Did you see the prices on these things?
> 
> ...


Wheree did you get these prices? I didn't see them on that page, maybe I missed a link? Or am just blind


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> Wheree did you get these prices? I didn't see them on that page, maybe I missed a link? Or am just blind


Here you go

http://www.tenbox.net/faq/faq.htm


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

I LOVE the look!
I LOVE the thought!
I LOVE the idea!

I HATE the price...

Sorry...

~Alan


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

At those prices they should also at least do their homework on recording capacities. The listed MPEG4 HD capacities are more like what the MPEG2 HD capacities would be.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wow, I was waiting for this to come out. But that is just *waaaaaaaaaaaaay* too much money. For the price of the 1TB I could get 4 more HR20's at retail lease price and get 8 more tuners to boot. 

Hopefully in 6-12 months their prices will come down to earth a bit. I'd be certainly willing to pay a premium over "roll your own" solutions but not more then $50-75 or so.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

BMoreRavens said:


> Here you go
> 
> http://www.tenbox.net/faq/faq.htm


thanks, the faq is the one place I didn';t look. Of course!

Well it really sounds like this is a very high quality design, with the materials they are using, cooling considerations, ambient noise etc. I just suspect they are going to have a problem getting many customers at these prices. But they are probably aiming for the high end and wealthy and if I were wealthy enough, I probably would at least consider it.


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## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

HolmesCo said:


> Wheree did you get these prices? I didn't see them on that page, maybe I missed a link? Or am just blind


In the FAQs:

http://www.tenbox.net/faq/faq.htm


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Wow, I was waiting for this to come out. But that is just *waaaaaaaaaaaaay* too much money. For the price of the 1TB I could get 4 more HR20's at retail lease price and get 8 more tuners to boot.
> 
> Hopefully in 6-12 months their prices will come down to earth a bit. I'd be certainly willing to pay a premium over "roll your own" solutions but not more then $50-75 or so.


And it needs to be able to be placed over an HR20-700, not just a -100, per TenBox's FAQs. /steve


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

I hope they aren't banking on selling a lot at those prices.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

hasan said:


> He was being sarcastic...and the unit you suggest is exactly what I'm looking at ...still convenient (plug and pray), and large enough to accommodate my needs.
> 
> btw, where did you get the "correct" cable for the Freeagent to the HR20? ...I don't think it comes with one. If you can, please give me where you bought the cable and its part number, so I don't get the wrong thing!
> 
> The suggested box is quite "top of the line", and not intended for the more "frugal" among us. As such, it does look exquisite from the specs/performance side. Those for whom price is not an object should be quite pleased at this offering.


I haven't actually bought one yet. Before the new HD channels, I don't feel I need one. Now I am worried about HGTV and Food Channel will take up my precious disk space during football seasons.

My company has eSATA products. I may be able to scrunge a cable out of a waste bin or something if I have to. Or even get a cable modified. I am sure someone else on this board has done that. I would be interested in the same information. I am willing to pay for convenience.

I was actually excited about this product until I see the price. If the 1TB box is below $400, I will consider it.


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## old7 (Dec 1, 2005)

hasan said:


> btw, where did you get the "correct" cable for the Freeagent to the HR20? ...I don't think it comes with one. If you can, please give me where you bought the cable and its part number, so I don't get the wrong thing!


I got my cable at Provantage.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Steve said:


> And it needs to be able to be placed over an HR20-700, not just a -100, per TenBox's FAQs. /steve


Yeah. What's the point of making a unit with the form factor suitable for stacking on top of a HR20 when it's not stackable on top of the HR20-700? This unit has "dud" written all over it.


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

Great idea...but it costs WAY too much. Like others have said, you can buy an external drive that does the exact same thing for much less.

I saw a 2T network storage device today for less than the cost of a 1T Tenbox.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

sbl said:


> An intriguing product, but I agree with others that the price seems a bit high for what you get. What is not clear to me is whether this box offers any sort of RAID capability. It says it has a RAID controller, but perhaps it's just striping across all the disks? If so, you're in deep trouble if any one of the disks fail.


Well Striping is a raid mode. From the website "2 high performance SATA Hard Drives with multiple stream recording capability (up to 10 television streams at once)"

Sounds like striping, Unless someone has come out with 2 TB SATA drives when I wasn't looking.

Mirroring would have been better IMHO up to 1 Tb and Striping plus Mirroring even better.

In the price I suspect you're paying for noise reduction and custom low noise cooling and of course the appearance. For those saying you can do it cheaper I'm sure you can but if they are using premium controller and drives rather than just the cheapest?

There are cheap drives and then there are good drives. You do get what you pay for in hard drives in terms of speed and durability.


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## bigbenny13 (Jul 22, 2007)

Am I the only person who has never even come close to filling up the harddrive? I thought   I watched way too much TV, but I am clearly insignifacnt compared to a lot of people.  Seriously do those of you who are filling up the factory drive delete the programs after you are donr or are you archiving most of the stuff? I have a back log of about 20hrs of movies I have been meaning to watch, but with madden football and baseball season my nights are pretty booked.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I have to say, wow. A product that is designed specifically for the HR20. That's how you know you've arrived, ladies and gentlemen. 

Is it more expensive? Yes. But it's designed for YOUR home theatre, not for your computer. That's gotta be worth something. 

I personally don't fill up my hard drive that much but if I did, I'd be looking for this, as it looks smooth, keeps your HR20 cool, and makes sense in a home theatre. 

Well done!


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

bigbenny13 said:


> Am I the only person who has never even come close to filling up the harddrive? I thought  I watched way too much TV, but I am clearly insignifacnt compared to a lot of people.  Seriously do those of you who are filling up the factory drive delete the programs after you are donr or are you archiving most of the stuff? I have a back log of about 20hrs of movies I have been meaning to watch, but with madden football and baseball season my nights are pretty booked.




During the network seasons I am constantly battling to keep my drive with more than 25% free. We have 50 series limits and I suspect we would have closer to 75 but thats another thread. And during the first run seasons I would bet we record between 6 and 10 hours a day of programming, some days I bet we approach 15.

Jim


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

bigbenny13 said:


> Am I the only person who has never even come close to filling up the harddrive? I thought   I watched way too much TV, but I am clearly insignifacnt compared to a lot of people.  Seriously do those of you who are filling up the factory drive delete the programs after you are donr or are you archiving most of the stuff? I have a back log of about 20hrs of movies I have been meaning to watch, but with madden football and baseball season my nights are pretty booked.




I have no plans to ever consider archiving stuff that's important to me on a HR20 HD unless DTV can and does enable portability of that disk to other HR20 receivers on the same account. The risk of the complete archive becoming unreadable if you have to replace your HR20 is just too great.

That being said, the 35 hrs (MPEG2 HD) to 50 hrs (MPEG4 HD) of a stock HR20 just didn't cut it for me, but I'm very happy with the 120-200 hours of HD recording capacity that my 750 GB replacement disk gives me. I think that I would go for a second HR20 and 750 GB disk before I would consider any huge multi-Terabyte configurations on a single HR20.

Think about it. Even if you paid full price for a second HR20, and two external 750 GB disks, you would have 1.5 TB of recording capacity for less than half of what this place is asking for 1.5 GB of storage, and with the extra HR20, you would have two extra tuners for fewer recording conflicts.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have to say, wow. A product that is designed specifically for the HR20. That's how you know you've arrived, ladies and gentlemen.
> 
> Is it more expensive? Yes. But it's designed for YOUR home theatre, not for your computer. That's gotta be worth something.
> 
> ...


It doesn't keep your HR20 cool. In fact they say that it shouldn't be stacked on top of a HR20-700 because it may cause an overheating problem. For it's excessive price point, I don't see much of anything "well done" about this product.


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## scuba_tim (Sep 23, 2006)

Ok, couple of thoughts here.

1) Like everyone else, the price is outrageous. No way spending 1500 on a 1.5 TB solution. It's nice that it's "designed for the HR20", but with this price it's not designed for the owner. There's cheaper ways out there for at least the much memory.

With that said, it is an interesting piece of technology
2) Does anyone know what hard drives they are using, model and build numbers?

3) Earl, a while back you hinted at a device that would use both the HR20s internal drive and an external one at the same time. Does this do that (and maybe I made all this up too, the mind is tricky that way).

I'd like to see some more specs on noice too, silence is golden. And if DTV ever gets MRV going, then this could be a nice media center. But I'm betting that's a few years away. Let's get Supercast up and going first.


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## mganga (Dec 4, 2006)

i think i'll just delete some shows...


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## old7 (Dec 1, 2005)

For the price of the TB1500, $1499.00, you could go to Costco and buy 3 HR20-700s (3 @ $269 = $807) and 3 750GB Seagate Freeagents (3 @ $229 = $687). 

Total for 3 systems with a total of 2250 GB and 6 tuners is $1494.

Hmmmmmmm, let me think a minute. Yup, I'll stick with the Freeagents.

Sounds like a great idea, let me know when the price is close to reasonable.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

old7 said:


> For the price of the TB1500, $1499.00, you could go to Costco and buy 3 HR20-700s (3 @ $269 = $807) and 3 750GB Seagate Freeagents (3 @ $229 = $687).
> 
> Total for 3 systems with a total of 2250 GB and 6 tuners is $1494.
> 
> ...


Don't forget, you already have to have at least one HR20 to use the $1499 1.5 TB add on, so for your alternative 3 receiver solution, you should only be adding the cost of 2 additional HR20's (plus 3 750 GB Freeagents).


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## Duffinator (Oct 25, 2006)

old7 said:


> For the price of the TB1500, $1499.00, you could go to Costco and buy 3 HR20-700s (3 @ $269 = $807) and 3 750GB Seagate Freeagents (3 @ $229 = $687).
> 
> Total for 3 systems with a total of 2250 GB and 6 tuners is $1494.
> 
> ...


Excellent point and with the new technology out any day that will allow you to run only one coax for both tuners that opens up two HR20's for most of us. If it's designed to mate with the HR20 and most are silver then why isn't the box silver??? I sure like the idea of plug and play...if they can just work on the price.


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## gusmahler (Aug 1, 2006)

With a name like "Tenbox", I was expecting a 10 TB model.


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## Dave_S (Jan 7, 2006)

Wow, tough crowd in here...  

Real sharp looking product, I like the fact that the case is the same size as the HR20, but the cost is pretty high. Just for comparison I was able to build a 1tb raid 0 setup for less than $450 back in April using the Thecus N2050, 2 x 500gb Seagate drives and an evercool "quiet" fan. Pricing out the same components today, the cost would be around ~$375. The Thecus has the "matching" blue leds also. :lol:


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

gusmahler said:


> With a name like "Tenbox", I was expecting a 10 TB model.


Yeah, not something that costs ten times more than it should. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, I'll admit it. My bashing this product on it's price point has officially turned into.... :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> It doesn't keep your HR20 cool. In fact they say that it shouldn't be stacked on top of a HR20-700 because it may cause an overheating problem. For it's excessive price point, I don't see much of anything "well done" about this product.


An excellent point... perhaps they should change the ads to show it sitting on the -100 instead of the -700. And, while it may not actively cool the HR20 it is managing the air around it and may have some benefit or at least do no harm.

Personally I think that it's great that we're seeing manufacturers who are making their products specifically for the HR20, and I want to encourage that.

Price is always an issue, and for those of us with the skills, we can build a similar product at a lower price. However, for the connoisseur with more money than skill, it's a great addition to a home theatre, especially if you want the best. If you want the cheapest, there are plenty of products there too. To each his own.


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

hasan said:


> He was being sarcastic...and the unit you suggest is exactly what I'm looking at ...still convenient (plug and pray), and large enough to accommodate my needs.
> 
> btw, where did you get the "correct" cable for the Freeagent to the HR20? ...I don't think it comes with one. If you can, please give me where you bought the cable and its part number, so I don't get the wrong thing!
> 
> The suggested box is quite "top of the line", and not intended for the more "frugal" among us. As such, it does look exquisite from the specs/performance side. Those for whom price is not an object should be quite pleased at this offering.


I bought my 6' esata cable from http://newegg.com. Works great, no problems.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Stuart Sweet said:


> An excellent point... perhaps they should change the ads to show it sitting on the -100 instead of the -700. And, while it may not actively cool the HR20 it is managing the air around it and may have some benefit or at least do no harm.
> 
> Personally I think that it's great that we're seeing manufacturers who are making their products specifically for the HR20, and I want to encourage that.
> 
> Price is always an issue, and for those of us with the skills, we can build a similar product at a lower price. However, for the connoisseur with more money than skill, it's a great addition to a home theatre, especially if you want the best. If you want the cheapest, there are plenty of products there too. To each his own.


Oh I agree. Looks like a fantastic product and if it weren't for this cruddy economy and layoffs all around and the fact that the cost of the 1TB model is a Mortgage payment I'd be all over it. 

Still, keep the HR20 products coming and hopefully the prices will come down and people start buying it. It is wild that a company is making a product just for the HR20. Nice to see indeed.


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## vollmey (Mar 23, 2007)

I like the look of the box, but you guys are right way, way to expensive for what you get. But, sell those boxes that will take up to three or four drives that a guy could buy one or two drives and have the ability to upgrade it over time, that might be a better seller.


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## funhouse69 (Mar 26, 2007)

I have to agree 100% with pretty much everyone here, this looks awesome and would make a really nice looking addition to anyone's setup. 

While we have an MSRP in the FAQ's we don't really have an actual "Street Price". I would hope that the street price will be about half the price of the MSRP which is entirely possible these days. 

People are certainly willing to spend money on their toys but I can't see anyone justifying spending that kind of money on something like this when they can put together their own albeit nowhere near as cool as this one for only a few hundred dollars. 

Hopefully we will be pleasantly surprised when this is officially released in the near future.

I would love to see an empty unit that we can put out existing drives in. I wouldn't have a problem paying a few hundred bucks for the case but we know how much drives cost these days.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

I appreciate the offering. It is very cool in concept. I will join the chorus and say the price is too high.

While trying to think of what the right price would be.. I would say for the launch of the 1TB model $599 (so half the current price would make sense.).

I realize though the costs and such, that would leave very little margin (relatively speaking.). So I think these guys are in a tough spot right now. Perhaps they can find a niche market initially that will get things rolling and allow them to bring their costs down some and hopefully the price.

I personally wouldn't buy one right now, because I got on the FreeAgent bandwagon myself for a small price. However, that does not mean I would not like one of these. I could simply not justify the benefits of the device to the price difference. And that is the tough spot. I don't know what kind of hard drives they will be using, but I bet they don't get them for a lot less than what we can get them for on deal, so they have pretty much zero margin there. Thus on the drives they are using they are making ZERO money. So add in the rest of the parts and such, and you are already up to a substantial chunk of change before they start making any money.

That is why they are kind of stuck. I hope it works out for them though, because I love to see these kinds of products developed and take root.


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

WAAAAY to pricey

A Sans Digital MS2UT (or equivalent), plus some extra drive trays plus as many pairs of drives as your heart desires(or your pocket book can afford) equals infinite storage....


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Did anyone notice the price on these things?

HA HA


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

I think you guys are a little off complaining about the price. That box would look just great if paired with the ultimate HR20 version. the ITC (SE2Labs). Once you spend $20K on the DVR...what's a couple of grand more for extra space?

Actually, I'm not sure if its an HR20 or a Tivo unit...in one place they say Tivo...but considering the work they're doing on this thing...it would have been crazy to put an outdated unit inside. Anyone want to buy one and let us know?

BTW, do you think I could get a programming credit from DirecTV to equal the cost of the ITC and Tenbox? 

Anyway...seriously...remember that the prices in their FAQ are "list" and the actual prices may be lower.


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## erp2863 (Aug 24, 2007)

I've been doing my own homework on building a storage device that fits in well with the AV rack. The enclosure is expensive, but not as expensive as their prices justify. Basically you have to contract with a Taiwanese manufacturer to get the price down.

My 'alpha' version used a gutted VCR case for 800gb of storage at RAID0. My 'beta' version is using an off the shelf enclosure and will have a 1.2Tb of usable storage with RAID5. Just waiting on the 2 new drives to show up from newegg.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1094247&postcount=113


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

scuba_tim said:


> Ok, couple of thoughts here.
> With that said, it is an interesting piece of technology
> 2) Does anyone know what hard drives they are using, model and build numbers?


I should be able to get the exact numbers, but I do know they are the Seagate Drives that were designed for DVRs.



scuba_tim said:


> 3) Earl, a while back you hinted at a device that would use both the HR20s internal drive and an external one at the same time. Does this do that (and maybe I made all this up too, the mind is tricky that way).


I don't ever recall hinting that... as that is not something a 3rd party company could do, that would have to be something with DirecTV and a significant software change.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Some responses from the vendor...

-) The prices listed are the MSRP/LIST price... actual purchase price will be lower.
-) One of the PRIMARY goals was to address the fact that the unit would be on 24/7. Most of the eSATA cases, pre-assembled drives, and most of the things people have been purchasing so far.... are not really targeted at 24/7 usage time frames. 

If you have any direct questions about the unit, feel free to email them. (link on the page).

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Comment from me...

The "heat" concern and stacking:
I have stacked: Bottom up:
HR20-700
HR20-100
TenBox

These are all inside an entertainment case.
The HR20-700 is the same one I did the review on a year ago.
And there has always been something stacked on top of it.

I have ZERO heat issues... the temperature is always in the 127 range

The recommendation is not to have it on top of the HR20-700...
But you CAN put the HR20-700 on top of the tenbox... (the TenBox is pretty much EXACTLY the same dimensions as the HR20)

But if you have properly ventilated your entertainment system area... you shouldn't have any issues if you put the tenbox on top of the HR20-700.


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## LP30 (Feb 27, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't ever recall hinting that... as that is not something a 3rd party company could do, that would have to be something with DirecTV and a significant software change.


You did not say the internal drive could be used, but I believe that impression came from the exchange in this thread.


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## scuba_tim (Sep 23, 2006)

Thanks LP30, that's what I remembered, though I did read a bit into Earl's comment (as is easy to do when you want to hear something  ).

I also have to go out on a limb and say I'm not thrilled about the look, unless the unit comes in HR20 Gray (does it??). I prefer AV pieces that look the same, in color at the least, gives a little cohession to the setup (unless you're just sticking it in a cabinet. But I don't feel that the outter design reallly compliments the HR20 specifically, though it is a nice looking box in it's own right.

I'm sure a few folks here would be happy to put it through it's paces. With the new HD and fall lineup coming, who doesn't need 330 hrs of space?

And when do we get to see one opened up, I'd love to check out the cooling system too.


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## djousma (Jan 22, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't ever recall hinting that... as that is not something a 3rd party company could do, that would have to be something with DirecTV and a significant software change.


Actually, you did hint in the CE forum about DTV changing the HR20 code to merge the internal and external drive to look as one, instead of the external replacing the internal drive.

I'll have to go find it I guess.

Dave


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## Guitar Hero (Dec 13, 2005)

I've been waiting for something like this to come along. I'm going to let it pass. 

Way over priced.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Personally, it'd be nice if, since the TenBox designers are members of this forum, would offer it at a special, low price for DBS members. I'm sure something could be arranged if so desired.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Lord Vader said:


> Personally, it'd be nice if, since the TenBox designers are members of this forum, would offer it at a special, low price for DBS members. I'm sure something could be arranged if so desired.


My guess is if they really start doing that (other than a short-term type of deal) they may really hurt their change of resellers wanting to carry their product.

Not many resellers are going to be interesting in purchasing inventory in a product and then having to compete on price with the manufacturer.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

It's called quantity of sale, though. Do you sell 100 of these at $1000 to $1500 each, or 500 of them at $500 to $1000 each? Guess which earns more revenue--and profit?


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## 66stang351 (Aug 10, 2006)

Dusty said:


> I haven't actually bought one yet. Before the new HD channels, I don't feel I need one. Now I am worried about HGTV and Food Channel will take up my precious disk space during football seasons.
> 
> My company has eSATA products. I may be able to scrunge a cable out of a waste bin or something if I have to. Or even get a cable modified. I am sure someone else on this board has done that. I would be interested in the same information. I am willing to pay for convenience.
> 
> I was actually excited about this product until I see the price. If the 1TB box is below $400, I will consider it.





hasan said:


> btw, where did you get the "correct" cable for the Freeagent to the HR20? ...I don't think it comes with one. If you can, please give me where you bought the cable and its part number, so I don't get the wrong thing!





old7 said:


> I got my cable at Provantage.


You can also get one from Monoprice


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## NickD (Apr 5, 2007)

I like it alot, I would love to have the 330 hours of space. With 2 kids and our schedules we could easily eat up a good bit of that space. Personally I can not justify buying one and spending that kind of money for storage space. I can see someone who wants alot of space with minimal fuss and some disposable income buying one. I know everyone here says that they can just get another Freeagent but then you have to disconnect the old drive and connect the new one. This is just annoying when you wan to watch shows on different drives, the tenbox alleviates that problem. I want alot of storage space but don't really know how to build a RAID box, this solves that problem as well. If the price comes down a good amount then I would buy one.


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## scuba_tim (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I should be able to get the exact numbers, but I do know they are the Seagate Drives that were designed for DVRs.


Seagates just put out their new build of DVR drives and I'm betting are the drives they're using (not cheap either). Check out this week old press release for more info: 
Seagate Ups the Ante


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## old7 (Dec 1, 2005)

66stang351 said:


> You can also get one from Monoprice


Yes, but the one that you link to at monoprice is SATA I. For the Seagate Freeagent you NEED a SATA II cable. The one that I linked to at Provantage is SATA II and does work with the Seagate Freeagent.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Kapeman said:


> MSRP: TB1000: $1199.00
> TB1500: $1499.00
> TB2000: price not available yet


Even if you give $400 to the price of 1 TB of disk, I don't see $800 in value from packaging/aesthetics/reduced noise and ease of use. Though I'm sure many people will.

Can you move a TenBox (or any eSATA drive) from one HR20 to another without loss of content?


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## old7 (Dec 1, 2005)

Thaedron said:


> Even if you give $400 to the price of 1 TB of disk, I don't see $800 in value from packaging/aesthetics/reduced noise and ease of use. Though I'm sure many people will.
> 
> Can you move a TenBox (or any eSATA drive) from one HR20 to another without loss of content?


No, that would be something that ONLY DirecTV could enable.


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## rynning (Jan 29, 2007)

> I also have to go out on a limb and say I'm not thrilled about the look, unless the unit comes in HR20 Gray (does it??). I prefer AV pieces that look the same, in color at the least, gives a little cohession to the setup (unless you're just sticking it in a cabinet. But I don't feel that the outter design reallly compliments the HR20 specifically, though it is a nice looking box in it's own right.


I totally agree. It appears to be slightly smaller, the color doesn't match, the blue lights don't match, the power button doesn't match, not to mention the ~ across the front. If it was truly "made" for the HR20, it would look like an HR20.

Oh, and the price is too high...


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

scuba_tim said:


> Seagates just put out their new build of DVR drives and I'm betting are the drives they're using (not cheap either). Check out this week old press release for more info:
> Seagate Ups the Ante


Then they don't plan on shipping the tenBox for a few months yet.

"The DB35.4 family of hard disc drives will be available starting in the first calendar quarter of 2008."

Their last generation of DVR-quality drives topped at 750GB, and priced around $300. So I can't imagine a 1TB solution costing more than $600. The last generation also advertised an operating temp of 75 degrees C, so cooling shouldn't be too big of a problem. But even if you do have an enclosure with a noisy fan, who cares? It's an external drive, run the cable into a cabinet or a closet!

Sorry, this thing is a lemon.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

I think there needs to be a reality check here. 

First, as has been mentioned, those prices are MSRP. 

Second, nobody has seen or used the unit (except for Earl). How can you call it a lemon? This reminds me of someone who hasn't seen a movie and gives it a bad review.

I think we need to settle down a bit and give Earl a chance to report his findings. I think this box looks like a great solution and if it's a quality product with good design, the price should not be an issue.


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## nelsonrl (Aug 16, 2007)

Street price better be in a very low end neighborhood or someone may be stuck with a lot of "contracted" enclosures. This is way may more than the market will support in my opinion.


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## Trak101 (Dec 3, 2005)

Vor said:


> The last generation also advertised an operating temp of 75 degrees C, so cooling shouldn't be too big of a problem.


FYI 75 C is 167 F, which is pretty dang warm... Cooling may indeed be a problem for some...


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

Chris Blount said:


> I think there needs to be a reality check here.
> 
> First, as has been mentioned, those prices are MSRP.


MSRP is usually no more than 40% above retail. These prices are at least 2X a reasonable price for that amount of storage, nearly 3x what the raw hard drives cost.



Chris Blount said:


> Second, nobody has seen or used the unit (except for Earl). How can you call it a lemon? This reminds me of someone who hasn't seen a movie and gives it a bad review.


Look at what they say they've spent the extra money on.

"The best, most silent and most efficient HDDs and cooling fans were used in the TenBox" -- the best HDDs don't need the best cooling fans, as they're designed to run hot. Seagate says that the DB3 line can even run fanless.

"The enclosure is made of thick aluminum" -- again a cooling/quiet thing. But if you're already using a quiet HD that doesn't need cooling, this is just wasted money.

"Some pieces of hardware had to be specially designed for this product" -- "had to"? No. "were"? Probably.

"3 Ultra-quiet low-noise Magnetic Levitation System Fans : Utilizing the attraction of the magnetic levitation force, Magnetic Levitation eliminates the wobbling and shaking problems of traditional motor fans. "

Sounds impressive. They must surely contribute to the large system cost. <google google> Oh, wait. $6.95/per

"Specially designed for the HR-20" -- then why does the color not match? Why can't you stack it on top of an HR-700 like the picture shows? Why doesn't the LED pattern match? Why the wavy line when the HR-20 is all angles and circles?

And really, here's the big question, if you're adding so much value with the enclosure (remember, the enclosure with HDD is at least 3X the price of the HDD), then why


> "Q: WHAT IS THE WARRANTY?
> A: 1 year for parts and labor. 3 years on the HDDs."


 is the warranty for the HDD three times as long as the warranty on the enclosure?


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## scuba_tim (Sep 23, 2006)

Thanks Vor, I was writing the same thoughts and checked back prior to posting. So to sum up the thoughts, yes price is a very big issue. It's always an issue in market driven world.

I'd actually think those Seagate drives would have a better warranty too.


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## gulfwarvet (Mar 7, 2007)

it looks like a very nice product, as i guessed this would be one of the products i like. but need to put it up on the never being able to afford list.


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## Smuuth (Oct 4, 2005)

Now if they need a CE participant to give these a field trial, I could use 3 of the TB2000 models.... :lol:


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I knew sommmeebodddy was going to say that...

As far as I know there is no need for field testers, this is a shipping-ready product.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

I suppose it's too late for suggestions, but I'll say it anyways...

If "I" was to have designed this box specifically for the HR20 (as advertised), and knowing ahead of time that the HR20-700 normally runs a pretty hot 127 degrees, and knowing ahead of time that many users add a cooling fan (like the targus chill mat) to their HR20-700 to bring it down to 107 degrees .... here's what "I" would have done.

I would have built (cleverly located) vents into the bottom of the unit and 2 fans to suck air into the unit, then blow the air out through the back .... basically combining a chill mat and the raid solution into one box.


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## Smuuth (Oct 4, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I knew sommmeebodddy was going to say that...
> 
> As far as I know there is no need for field testers, this is a shipping-ready product.


Yea, I figured that too, but field testing would put the price into my range...


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> I would have built (cleverly located) vents into the bottom of the unit and 2 fans to suck air into the unit, then blow the air out through the back .... basically combining a chill mat and the raid solution into one box.


That would indeed be a significant value-add.


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## gaperrine (Dec 8, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The creators of the TenBox are members of this forum... so have at it with your questions, comments, ect....


Who are the creators and are they posting in this thread? This information would be useful, as their posts might be somewhat biased.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gaperrine said:


> Who are the creators and are they posting in this thread? This information would be useful, as their posts might be somewhat biased.


No, they are not actively participating in the thread.
They are reading it and monitoring it.

When they do participate, you will see their account... and it will be obvious.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

As for the graphite color of the box..

They do plan to have other color options available.


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## Smuuth (Oct 4, 2005)

Well, I like the look of the box. It goes well with the HR20, and there is something to be said for designing external storage with a DVR in mind, vs. adapting something designed for use with a computer.

Having said that, I agree with most posters that the price per MB is too high. The look and the specificity of the unit for the HR20 does not justify the degree of price premium they are asking.

I would not buy one at those prices, and I am one who does not hesitate to buy top of the line if I believe quality justifies price.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Hey give them credit for designing something with the HR20 in mind. They may find a nice niche in the high-end home theater market where price isn't that big of an issue. They have to build in a profit for themselves and a large enough profit to interest the home theater sellers in carrying/selling their product.

A small company entering this marketplace wouldn't have much of a shot if they created a unit to compete with the likes of Seagate...or worse the the seven zillion enclosure brands from China and/or Korea.


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## jcrandall (Jun 18, 2004)

I think this has ALOT of potential, here is the changes I would like:

1. Sell without the drives - $100-200 for the enclosure with the eSATA raid setup. Drives can be the buyers option. If you also sell with drives - be price competitive.

2. Colors - grey or black - match the HR20, why graphite???

3. Implement the cooling fan on the bottom like suggested above. I use a notebook cooler upside down on top of my hr20-700s and it keeps them running smoothly. Without them they would go above 130 temp and on occasion freeze/become erratic. Never a problem since implementing the fans.

4. Power light, not power button. There should be no reason to turn it off unless you disconnect power. Perhaps a power switch on the back instead (cheaper  too)

5. Take the above suggestions, and allows you to market this to other DVR owners. E* customers could hook it to their VIP622 via USB. Keep your DVR cool and add 1-2TB of storage.


One last thing - for a small manufacturer the biggest harm in a new product like this is the cost of sourcing and selling products from other companies in time to turn a profit. I'm talking hard drives here.

You buy Seagate drives, install them in your equipment, and sell your product, all the while the value of the drives is going down.

You are marketing a product to a high-end consumer - a customer base that many of which would be comfortable installing a hard drive.

So I recomend this:

Sell the product yourself - forget the middlemen.

Sell the box itself - forget the 3rd party hard drive efforts.

Offer the option to buy the unit with drives installed like you plan now using 500/750/1000 x 2 drives. BUT - build the final product on demand when ordered, reducing your inventory of drives and obsolesence expenses.

Or - partner with a distributor and setup your order taking site to allow ordering hard drives with the unit - and drop ship the drives to the customer. Provide instructions on installing the drives with the box.

Simple - open the cover, insert drive, 4 screws to secure, and connect sata data cable and power cable. Have the cables installed in the unit and just waiting for drives.

$200 a pop, profitable, lower overhead, reduced inventory/obsolence expenses, etc. Think about it.

And please - add bottom cooling for the HR20-700 series - that can be a selling point for the HR20 and many other DVRs.


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## jcrandall (Jun 18, 2004)

BTW - get to the $200 price range without drives, build in bottom fans to help cool the HR20-700, and make the case gray:

AND I'LL ORDER 3 OF THEM


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## funhouse69 (Mar 26, 2007)

masterdeals said:


> BTW - get to the $200 price range without drives, build in bottom fans to help cool the HR20-700, and make the case gray:
> 
> AND I'LL ORDER 3 OF THEM


I think I might have originally mentioned selling these without drives as well back a few days ago. I agree around $200 for the case without drives and I will order two of them tomorrow


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

I'd suggest making this unit rack-mountable like the HR20 Pro. At your present price point that's where your market is going to be.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Vor said:


> MSRP is usually no more than 40% above retail. These prices are at least 2X a reasonable price for that amount of storage, nearly 3x what the raw hard drives cost.
> 
> Snipped


MSRP is Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price.  Thus I wonder where your 40% comes from? Discounted from MSRP?

Cheers


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

Ken S said:


> I'd suggest making this unit rack-mountable like the HR20 Pro. At your present price point that's where your market is going to be.


If you decide to make it rack mountable, I suggest making that optional.
Drill the holes for the brackets.
Include the brackets and screws.
This way it's compatible with all models.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

masterdeals said:


> Snip
> 
> 5. Take the above suggestions, and allows you to market this to other DVR owners. E* customers could hook it to their VIP622 via USB. Keep your DVR cool and add 1-2TB of storage.
> 
> Snip


Well Echostar's customers could use it but from my reading elsewhere, 750Gb limit supported right now, Single High quality USB2 drive. Would a Raid drive work? Other difference a Dish customer could easily run out and buy four 500Gb USB drives when they go on sale at $119 for example. Other major difference is that four 500Gb drives are efficient on Dish since they add to the internal drive rather than replacing it. If you add a 1000gig drive to a HR-20 how much is a waste because it is really replacing the internal storage? So the net gain is new drive size minus internal drive size. So a 622 user can sort types of programs to external drives, send to drive while watching something else, unplug usb, swap drives and send to that drive, go back to watching whatever was paused.

If one big external striped 2Tb drive dies it is all gone, if the dish guys 4 x 500Gb 2Tb loses a drive only 1/4 is gone.

I suspect that D* can implement a external drive as a add on to internal if they wanted to. Most likey they won't as they seem to be more in the DRM camp. Of course if they see Charlie getting away with it then they may eventually try it too. Once they saw E* success with DVRs then they went to Tivo and MS for DVRs.

I remember calling D* for Locals from NYC and being told no you don't qualify despite being in Central NJ and able to get them with rabbit ears. 

From reading here and other forums people are using those cooling mats on the VIP622. So that could be a good feature for both. My guess is that the hard drives create the most heat. And since they are slimline designs there is no room for a 120mm low noise high volume fan such as we would use in a computer.

Just for comparison I had a really hot running Samsung SATA here at work that was to hot to touch, I put a case fan blowing onto it, blammo, nice and cool. The air exhausting out of the case was hot before the extra drive fan, afterwards the air exhausting was cool.

Cheers


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> If you decide to make it rack mountable, I suggest making that optional.
> Drill the holes for the brackets.
> Include the brackets and screws.
> This way it's compatible with all models.


I agree...on that.


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> MSRP is Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price.  Thus I wonder where your 40% comes from? Discounted from MSRP?


Yes. Manufacturers (in theory) aren't allowed to set the retail price. Manufacturer says "I'm selling this to you, retail outlet, for X. I suggest you charge X+20%." Retail outlet says "But I'm going to order 10,000 of these."

Manufacturer then says "OK, I'll sell it to you for 20% off. But I still suggest you charge X+20%." And the retailer says "F that, I'm selling it for X."

40% is an extreme case, like a Fry's running a weekend sale on an almost out of date HP printer or something.

Oh, and I'd agree to $250 for the enclosure itself if they designed it to cool the HR-20 by installing the bottom fans as suggested AND put in a little logic to monitor the inbound air temperature and adjust fan speed according to how hot it was getting. That seems like a fair premium price for a premium enclosure.


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

For these prices the box should be networkable to several HR20s. 

For these prices I'd rather have a functioning network connection and a 2Tb NAS drive (e.g. Infrant NV+) on a network were all HR receivers could share the content.

These boxes should be silver to match the HR20s. A black version needs to be rackmountable to match the HR21s.


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## SlimyPizza (Oct 14, 2006)

I totally agree with the comment about having these new TenBox units networked to allow storage/sharing from all HR-2x's in the home. Now that would be a feature worth paying more $'s for.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

SlimyPizza said:


> I totally agree with the comment about having these new TenBox units networked to allow storage/sharing from all HR-2x's in the home. Now that would be a feature worth paying more $'s for.


That is something that DirecTV would have to allow support for.

Not sure how TenLabs or any other provider could allow that.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Vor said:


> Yes. Manufacturers (in theory) aren't allowed to set the retail price. Manufacturer says "I'm selling this to you, retail outlet, for X. I suggest you charge X+20%." Retail outlet says "But I'm going to order 10,000 of these."
> 
> Manufacturer then says "OK, I'll sell it to you for 20% off. But I still suggest you charge X+20%." And the retailer says "F that, I'm selling it for X."
> 
> ...


Actually, there was a recent court decision which said MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) stipulations are legal.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

NetRaider said:


> For these prices the box should be networkable to several HR20s.
> 
> For these prices I'd rather have a functioning network connection and a 2Tb NAS drive (e.g. Infrant NV+) on a network were all HR receivers could share the content.
> 
> These boxes should be silver to match the HR20s. A black version needs to be rackmountable to match the HR21s.


That's something I would pay for. NAS shared among our HR20s would make for a much better product experience...but now we're back to MRV again...just a backdoor way of getting there.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

It doesn't need any logic in the box. Dell for example has been using fans in their computers for years that have a small temperature sensor to allow the fan to adjust its own speed. IOWs a temperature controlled fan that runs slow when the air is cool and faster when needed. All it needs for that to work is for the fan to blow the air through the case so it can sense the case air temperature.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

It's evident to me that this box has some sort of RAID controller in it, even if it's just RAID0. There isn't any other way to get at the capacities stated with drives on the market now. RAID0 also improves performance, which is important, but as noted, if one drive fails, you're completely hosed. 

So let's look at what other eSATA RAID enclosures are out there. Looking at Newegg I see the MicroNet SR4100E (1TB) with four swappable drives - $509. Then there's the Cavalry 2TB box for $599. Both of these would be out of place on top of (or even near) an HR20 and they're probably noisy too, but they offer more functionality than the far-more-expensive Tenbox. Then again, my $230 Seagate FreeAgentPro (750GB), while nothing great to look at, is pretty much silent and can be tucked out of sight.

I don't see that the Tenbox is designed to have the user replace the disks (though I'm sure it's possible.) It's a nice-looking design but doesn't offer enough value to entice me.

Regarding fans - I'll note that an integrated fan in the base would not help a HR20-100 (no top vents.) What I'd like to see someone come out with is a USB-powered box fan with magnets (or maybe Velcro or some such) that just stick onto the DVR's body over an appropriate vent. I can think of lots of uses for that.


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## TenLab (Sep 12, 2007)

I am a member of TenLab and one of the creators of the TenBox. As a DirecTV subscriber and HR20 user I access this forum from time to time for information, and we decided to launch our new product here. I thank you all for your interest and comments.

The idea of the TenBox came from my own (and my colleague's) need for extra storage space for our HR20s. Like many of you, we tried all eSATA boxes in the market to be disappointed, there was no box designed to work 24/7 in a home, and we decided to build it.

It took nearly 1 year of evaluating and testing hundreds of parts. We selected the best HDDs for this application, the best controller card available, the best cooling fans, the best of everything (even fasteners, grommets, bumper feet, switches, enclosure manufacturer, etc.) to build the best box. Some parts were modified, others specially designed. The resulting TenBox works perfectly with the HR20, it is built for 24/7 operation and it's so quiet that you can use in your bedroom.

Yes, it is expensive. We wanted to build the very best and that is very costly. We are working with re sellers on the price, and on more affordable options such as a TenBox with no HDD installed, and a TenBox to use with a single HDD. Other colors and shapes are also planned. Many of your posting have suggestions that we have already considered and abandoned for different reasons. We won't respond to individual questions on the forum, but you can get fast expert assistance if you email us, and we will be posting more info on the FAQ link, addressing your questions. We appreciate your feedback, keep it coming. We'll do our best to built models of TenBoxes that everybody can afford.

Now we are all waiting for Earl's review of the TenBox. We have no preview of what he'll report.

Ed
TenLab
[email protected]


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## Volman (Jul 13, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Some responses from the vendor...
> 
> -) One of the PRIMARY goals was to address the fact that the unit would be on 24/7. Most of the eSATA cases, pre-assembled drives, and most of the things people have been purchasing so far.... are not really targeted at 24/7 usage time frames.
> 
> If you have any direct questions about the unit, feel free to email them. (link on the page).


So there is a definite implication from "the vendor" that setups like our Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750GB units are doomed to an early death.I hope the 5 year warranty is for real!


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## Dazed & Confused (Jun 13, 2007)

I actually agree with what these guys are trying to achieve. I look at the components in this box and it brings a smile to my face. I can be pretty anal about things, and *quiet* is one of the things I am especially anal about.

I am not obscenely rich, but I have reached a point in my life that I want what I want, and will pay for it if it makes sense *to me*. If I actually developed a need for the extra HDD space, I would surely consider one these boxes. I am also sure they will be available for somewhat less that the MSRP.

I guess that makes me one of the idiots they are targeting.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

TenLab said:


> The idea of the TenBox came from my own (and my colleague's) need for extra storage space for our HR20s. Like many of you, we tried all eSATA boxes in the market to be disappointed, there was no box designed to work 24/7 in a home


Sorry, but I'm calling bullsh*t on that statement. Any of the many other RAID enclosures that are properly ventilated as your unit is, will do just fine running 24/7. As someone else pointed out in this thread, the extra quiet ventilation fans that are used in your units (parts which your FAQ insinuates contribute to the high cost of your unit), cost a little over 5 dollars each.

Your claim that "there was no box designed to work 24/7 in a home" is not only unsubstantiated, but in all probability, nothing more than pure marketing hyperbole on your part. I have yet to see anything about your RAID box that would indicate that it is any better designed for 24/7 use than any of the other typical RAID boxes on the market.

So tell us all&#8230;.. Since you claim to have "tried all eSATA boxes in the market" and that you were "disappointed" that not one of them was suitable for use 24/7 as a DVR storage device, specifically, what *EXACTLY* was the shortcoming of *EVERY* eSATA box on the market that your eSATA box overcomes?


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Volman said:


> So there is a definite implication from "the vendor" that setups like our Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750GB units are doomed to an early death.I hope the 5 year warranty is for real!


A definite implication? Either that or the Tenlab people are preaching untrue doom and gloom innuendo about other products that are essentially functionally equivalent, but much lower priced alternatives to their product, in order to try to convince people that their overpriced boxes are worth the extra money.


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## funhouse69 (Mar 26, 2007)

Volman said:


> So there is a definite implication from "the vendor" that setups like our Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750GB units are doomed to an early death.I hope the 5 year warranty is for real!


Don't worry about it, I've been in the computer industry for well over 20 years now and Seagate has had and still maintains one of the best reputations in the storage world. Whenever we build a RAID Array we only choose Seagate drives not only for their 5 year warranty but because they perform and are very, very reliable.

Whenever there has been an issue with their drives albeit very rare they certainly stand behind their product.

I have 2 HR20's and both of them have eSATA drives connected using an enclosure I picked up from New Egg that has a fan built in to it and they have been running perfectly for the better part of a year.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is something that DirecTV would have to allow support for.
> 
> Not sure how TenLabs or any other provider could allow that.


Then what's the point of advertising that the drives can support 10 active streams if the most possible with one HR20 is 4 (2 inputs recording, 1 playing, and DOD downloading).


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Lord Vader said:


> It's called quantity of sale, though. Do you sell 100 of these at $1000 to $1500 each, or 500 of them at $500 to $1000 each? Guess which earns more revenue--and profit?


I'm guessing if you sell 100 at $1000 (one of your price points for 100), you won't make as much revenue or profit as you would if you sold sell 500 at $1000 (one of the price points for 500).

But it's just a guess.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

You're mixing apples and oranges. It's also a paradoxical fact that when overall amounts--prices--are lowered, overall revenue and profit _increase _ because of the increase in demand.

It's the same for taxes. U.S. Treasury intake actually increases when our taxes are lowered, and not raised.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Posted: 9/10/2007



Earl Bonovich said:


> The creators of the TenBox are members of this forum...





TenLab said:


> I am a member of TenLab and one of the creators of the TenBox.


Join date: 9/12/2007


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Lord Vader said:


> You're mixing apples and oranges.


Nope, I'm not. I don't think you read my post.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Vor said:


> Yes. Manufacturers (in theory) aren't allowed to set the retail price.


Actually that is no longer true. The law that prevented companies for setting a floor on retail prices was done away with. Companies can now dictate what people charge for their products. At least those who buy from them directly.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Posted: 9/10/2007
> 
> Join date: 9/12/2007


I'm sure that logon was created just to deal with questions..


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## Smuuth (Oct 4, 2005)

marksman said:


> Actually that is no longer true. The law that prevented companies for setting a floor on retail prices was done away with. Companies can now dictate what people charge for their products. At least those who buy from them directly.


A perfect example company of this is Bose. Try and find any of their products discounted.


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## Volman (Jul 13, 2007)

cartrivision said:


> A definite implication? Either that or the Tenlab people are preaching untrue doom and gloom innuendo about other products that are essentially functionally equivalent, but much lower priced alternatives to their product, in order to try to convince people that their overpriced boxes are worth the extra money.


That's exactly what I was hinting at!That they made a bit too much out of the failure of other units.I agree fully with your asessment.


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## Andrew67 (Aug 13, 2007)

cartrivision said:


> Your claim that "there was no box designed to work 24/7 in a home" is not only unsubstantiated, but in all probability, nothing more than pure marketing hyperbole on your part. I have yet to see anything about your RAID box that would indicate that it is any better designed for 24/7 use than any of the other typical RAID boxes on the market.


I've seen similar statements made on various threads by several posters. 24/7 operation is nothing new in the computer world. Not for drives and not for drive enclosures. There is nothing special about drives used in DVR's. They're not specially designed for DVR's, they are not quieter or cooler than typical computer drives and they're not designed to run 24/7 any differently than a typical drive. Hard disks are a crap shoot to begin with, but any drive in a properly ventilated case should be expected to run 24/7 whether it's in a DVR or a computer.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

You can get away with regular drives however there are drives designed for DVR use. From this link.

http://www.weaknees.com/seagate-db35-hard-drives.php

"Seagate DB35 drives and Maxtor QuickView drives have a few key differences from normal desktop drives that make them far superior to desktop drives for PVR usage:

Thermal Control: On board sensors monitor temperature and adjust characteristics as necessary to keep the temperature optimal. 
Durability: These drives run at 7200 RPM - more than fast enough for every PVR (providing about three times the necessary peak throughput) but not fast enough to wear out sooner. 
Acoustic Management: DVR-specific drives are specially tuned to run as quietly as possible. 
A/V Streaming: DVR-specific drives have been optimized and tuned to provide consistent data to the PVR processor. Standard desktop drives can hang while retrying drive reads - QuickView drives know to move ahead and provide more data to keep video smooth. 
Error Recovery: Desktop drives retry on errors to make sure that your Excel spreadsheet is exactly right - it's imperative. But when watching video, if one block of data is bad, you may not even notice a dark spot on one frame for 1/30th of a second. So these drives are tuned to move past errors faster, putting the stream of data as top priority. Where desktop drives often cause stutters, these drives run smooth. "


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

Andrew67 said:


> I've seen similar statements made on various threads by several posters. 24/7 operation is nothing new in the computer world. Not for drives and not for drive enclosures. There is nothing special about drives used in DVR's. They're not specially designed for DVR's, they are not quieter or cooler than typical computer drives and they're not designed to run 24/7 any differently than a typical drive. Hard disks are a crap shoot to begin with, but any drive in a properly ventilated case should be expected to run 24/7 whether it's in a DVR or a computer.


I agree with this and in fact the more you power a hard drive off and on, the more likely it is to fail. Thats always been the old school thinking anyway, maybe newer designs are more durable.


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

Smuuth said:


> A perfect example company of this is Bose. Try and find any of their products discounted.


Or Apple.


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## Andrew67 (Aug 13, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> You can get away with regular drives however there are drives designed for DVR use. From this link.
> 
> http://www.weaknees.com/seagate-db35-hard-drives.php
> 
> ...


This is all marketing hype. The only thing here that could be unique to these drives are reduced error recovery times. And that's only a problem when excessive errors are encountered, which should be an extremely uncommon occurrence with a healthy drive.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Andrew67 said:


> This is all marketing hype. The only thing here that could be unique to these drives are reduced error recovery times. And that's only a problem when excessive errors are encountered, which should be an extremely uncommon occurrence with a healthy drive.


80% marketing hype. 20% reality
The real question is do you want to pay 100+% more for them?


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## Volman (Jul 13, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> You can get away with regular drives however there are drives designed for DVR use. From this link.
> 
> http://www.weaknees.com/seagate-db35-hard-drives.php
> 
> "Seagate DB35 drives and Maxtor QuickView drives have a few key differences from normal desktop drives that make them far superior to desktop drives for PVR usage."


So,I assume that the HD in a Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750 is NOT a "DB35 drive"?True?

If it really made such a difference,why does Seagate not say so in the warranty(i.e. not for use with a DVR)?


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> 80% marketing hype. 20% reality
> The real question is do you want to pay 100+% more for them?


...or 200% more for them after the Tenlab folks package them into their "Tenbox".


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> ...or 200% more for them after the Tenlab folks package them into their "Tenbox".


I was thinking just raw drive. The TenLab folks seems to be on another planet entirely (at least from a pricing perspective).


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Volman said:


> So,I assume that the HD in a Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750 is NOT a "DB35 drive"?True?
> 
> If it really made such a difference,why does Seagate not say so in the warranty(i.e. not for use with a DVR)?


The quoted MTBF for the FreeAgent drive is about 1.2 million hours and for the DB35 about 1.4 million hours, so they're pretty close in terms of overall reliability. The DB35's are quieter, however, so in that respect they are "technically" more appropriate for Home Theater installations. /steve


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## Volman (Jul 13, 2007)

Steve said:


> The quoted MTBF for the FreeAgent drive is about 1.2 million hours and for the DB35 about 1.4 million hours, so they're pretty close in terms of overall reliability. The DB35's are quieter, however, so in that respect they are "technically" more appropriate for Home Theater installations. /steve


Are those figures correct("MILLION hours")?


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## Andrew67 (Aug 13, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> 80% marketing hype. 20% reality
> The real question is do you want to pay 100+% more for them?


The most important feature of the DB35 line of drives is that they have hardware support for DRM. Other than that, they are comparable to every other drive in the market place.

So... do you want to pay 100% more for a drive that could be used to restrict your access to it's content?


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## Andrew67 (Aug 13, 2007)

Volman said:


> Are those figures correct("MILLION hours")?


Yes.


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## Volman (Jul 13, 2007)

Andrew67 said:


> Yes.


So I can leave it in my will for the grandkids!!!!The HR20 may be dead by then


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Volman said:


> Are those figures correct("MILLION hours")?


Ya. Just 20 years ago 8000 hours Mean Time Between Failure (about 1 year) was amazing. Now we're up over a million hours! /steve


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Volman said:


> So I can leave it in my will for the grandkids!!!!The HR20 may be dead by then


That's OK. Perhaps by then the AV devices will be black again and this will match them.

How oin the world can they claim this was designed forthe HR20 when it's not even the same color?


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## old7 (Dec 1, 2005)

Volman said:


> So I can leave it in my will for the grandkids!!!!The HR20 may be dead by then


Why, did Granddad keep this puny, little hard drive. It's not even a full terabyte. My I-vision has 10 petabytes and the new I-vision II has 25. And look how big that thing is, its ancient, just throw it away.

</Volman's grandson>


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## Volman (Jul 13, 2007)

old7 said:


> Why, did Granddad keep this puny, little hard drive. It's not even a full terabyte. My I-vision has 10 petabytes and the new I-vision II has 25. And look how big that thing is, its ancient, just throw it away.
> 
> </Volman's grandson>


Funny..............Or perhaps,Grandson: "What the heck is that?"..........Grandma:"It's a hard drive.They came out right after VHS tapes".


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Volman said:


> So I can leave it in my will for the grandkids!!!!The HR20 may be dead by then


In theory, yes, the AVERAGE drive can be expected to operate for that length of time. (MTBF = Mean Time Between Failure)

In practical reality, the drive will be effectively obsolete long before your grand kids get ahold of that... "Grandpa, it's great that you want to give me your antique 500GigaByte and 1TeraByte drives, but come on all the cool kids today have 10PetaByte Holographic memory cubes that are smaller and faster."


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## scuba_tim (Sep 23, 2006)

Let's not forget we are only speculating that TenLab is using Seagate DB35 drives. They have yet to publish what drives they are using aside from the fact that the we can be assured they are the greatest drives ever. ever.


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## Bathel (Aug 18, 2007)

Not that it means anything, but....

Most Computers don't write to the HDD constantly. Most DVR do... there is a difference between using a HDD in a computer and using one in a DVR. Having said that... unless it's critical data that's need to be stored, why would you ever pay that HUGE price they're asking? Buy a cheap drive ... if it dies, buy another one. By the time it dies, new drives will be twice the size and the cost of the same size drive will be half the cost.

I don't see where the TenDrive offers anything "new" or of "value" to the end user, but I'll try to keep an open mind; However, I've seen other usless items being marketed and sold for even more that seem to find a market...


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Bathel said:


> I don't see where the TenDrive offers anything "new" or of "value" to the end user, but I'll try to keep an open mind; However, I've seen other usless items being marketed and sold for even more that seem to find a market...


I think most people would have to conceed that it is a more attractive piece of hardware for the media center than most external drives.

I also have no doubt that it's really quiet.

Is that worth the price to me - heck no!


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## Bathel (Aug 18, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> I think most people would have to conceed that it is a more attractive piece of hardware for the media center than most external drives.


Actually, I find it to be pretty ugly. I have an enclosed media center so I really could care less what it looks like, but if I had an open media center... I would be looking at a smaller unit that I could hide away. There are many eSata enclosures out on the market that are easily hidden from site.


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## Rubbernecker (Jan 18, 2007)

Im sad that we are now selling stuff on this site other than advertisement... Doesn't feel right..


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Rubbernecker said:


> Im sad that we are now selling stuff on this site other than advertisement... Doesn't feel right..


So we can't talk about products that are out there?
We do it all day long.... cables, remotes, providers boxes, TV's, amps, ect...


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## Rubbernecker (Jan 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So we can't talk about products that are out there?
> We do it all day long.... cables, remotes, providers boxes, TV's, amps, ect...


Absolutely we can talk about stuff, we do it all the time, but it feels to me, that you are trying to sell this product. They have given you one, presumable for free (correct me if I am wrong) and you are trying to help them out.

I didnt make the original comment to start trouble, it was just the way I felt. Sorry.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Rubbernecker said:


> Absolutely we can talk about stuff, we do it all the time, but it feels to me, that you are trying to sell this product. They have given you one, presumable for free (correct me if I am wrong) and you are trying to help them out.
> 
> I didnt make the original comment to start trouble, it was just the way I felt. Sorry.


I definitely doesn;t seem like he is trying to sell it to me.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> 80% marketing hype. 20% reality
> The real question is do you want to pay 100+% more for them?


Actually, the thing that they tout (less error recovery) should make them less expensive not more expensive. They're just using older technology for that piece.
The line about speed cracks me up about 95% of 3.5" drives today are 7200RPM. There are a few 10K+ out there but they're very expensive. Slower drives generally are only found in the 2.5" format.

If other drives were not meant for DVR use you can bet that it would be noted in their warranty.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Rubbernecker said:


> Im sad that we are now selling stuff on this site other than advertisement... Doesn't feel right..


For another perspective... another very similar and equally valuable forum that many, many members here frequent is AVS forum. AVS is a for profit company and actually does sell a wide range of AV equipment. Members there are proud to buy products from AVS and view it as helping to give back to the community that they get much value from. I bought my Oppo DVD player from AVS rather than from Oppo, for precisely that reason.

Now... :backtotop


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> I definitely doesn;t seem like he is trying to sell it to me.


I agree. Though TenLab is definitely getting an in-depth "focus group" analysis at absolutely no cost (other than the box they are giving to Earl...  )


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Rubbernecker said:


> Im sad that we are now selling stuff on this site other than advertisement... Doesn't feel right..


I think it's okay for the people that make products to come on here and talk about those products. It's a little sad that the Tenbox people don't seem to want to have a dialogue though.

On the other hand...the forum hasn't been all that inviting either.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl, do you know when you are going to get one so you can open it up and give us a full "first look" review complete with photos of the insides like you have done for us with the HR20 boxes?


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

When are these things supposed to hit the market? A search for them at both retailers that Tenlabs lists in their FAQ as places to buy these things comes up empty. It seems that right now these things are just "vaporware".


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> Earl, do you know when you are going to get one so you can open it up and give us a full "first look" review complete with photos of the insides like you have done for us with the HR20 boxes?


Hopefully in the next weekend (not this one but the next).


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

Ken S said:


> The line about speed cracks me up about 95% of 3.5" drives today are 7200RPM.


You can imagine how hard I laughed when I learned that "Elastomeric mounts" means "rubber washers".


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Rubbernecker said:


> Absolutely we can talk about stuff, we do it all the time, but it feels to me, that you are trying to sell this product. They have given you one, presumable for free (correct me if I am wrong) and you are trying to help them out.
> 
> I didnt make the original comment to start trouble, it was just the way I felt. Sorry.


If you felt that way, then ceratinly someone else has.... and I just want to make it clear, that isn't the case...
I am not here to help "sell" anything....

I have been just trying to answer the questions that people have been asking.

I have no "ties" to the company other then being the one of people talking to them. I have no financial gain if they sell 10,000 or none....

When I do complete the review, it will be attempted as I do with my other reviews to be objective as much as possible.

I am not here to sell any of you anything....
If someone else came along with a product that competed... we would treat it the same way.

Pro's and Con's between different makes and models of eSATA enclosures... to help you all make your decision in where you spend your money.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ken S said:


> I think it's okay for the people that make products to come on here and talk about those products. It's a little sad that the Tenbox people don't seem to want to have a dialogue though.
> 
> On the other hand...the forum hasn't been all that inviting either.


They do... and they will....

But they are making sure they have the right answers to your questions, and evaluating all the feedback that you all have posted already.

They will be here....


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

If it doesn't provide central storage for multiple HR20s then there is no reason to spend the bucks. There are many eSATA boxes available that cost far less.

Black rackmount or silver HR20 stack. One or the other please.


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## Volman (Jul 13, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So we can't talk about products that are out there?
> We do it all day long.... cables, remotes, providers boxes, TV's, amps, ect...


Earl's right.If it weren't for links on this site,I wouldn't have my Seagate FA Pro.


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

NetRaider said:


> If it doesn't provide central storage for multiple HR20s then there is no reason to spend the bucks. There are many eSATA boxes available that cost far less.


How would you even do that though? eSata max cable length is 2m, and there's no way in hell the HR-20's embedded processor can shove enough raw data out it's Ethernet port to use a networked storage solution.


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

Vor said:


> How would you even do that though? eSata max cable length is 2m, and there's no way in hell the HR-20's embedded processor can shove enough raw data out it's Ethernet port to use a networked storage solution.


Through the RJ45 ethernet port.


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

NetRaider said:


> Through the RJ45 ethernet port.


ESata = 3Gb/s, low latency, low cpu overhead (video asic writes straight to hard drive).

RJ45 Ethernet = 1Gb/s (max, 100 Mb/s more likely in a home network), high latency, unknown CPU overhead (I don't know how much the CPU has to get in the way of receiving, for instance, VOD feeds, or how much touch it would have to do (probably high-touch) to push a video feed out the network port).

In theory, you could probably code it to use the internal drive as a big-assed cache and use it for your line buffer, while archiving stuff off to remote disk over the network. But recording two HD streams while watching another one and VOD-downloading a third all over the RJ45? No way in heck.


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## Rubbernecker (Jan 18, 2007)

Thanks for the response Earl. I appreciate it and all that I have learned from this site.


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

Vor said:


> ESata = 3Gb/s, low latency, low cpu overhead (video asic writes straight to hard drive).
> 
> RJ45 Ethernet = 1Gb/s (max, 100 Mb/s more likely in a home network), high latency, unknown CPU overhead (I don't know how much the CPU has to get in the way of receiving, for instance, VOD feeds, or how much touch it would have to do (probably high-touch) to push a video feed out the network port).
> 
> In theory, you could probably code it to use the internal drive as a big-assed cache and use it for your line buffer, while archiving stuff off to remote disk over the network. But recording two HD streams while watching another one and VOD-downloading a third all over the RJ45? No way in heck.


I can stream multiple HD streams now over my gigabit network (bandwidth of 10GBps with new switch) from my Infrant NV+ server ( http://www.infrant.com/products/products_details.php?name=ReadyNAS NVPlus ). There are serveral HD media servers (Axonix) now and new ones all the time ( Alienware Rack-Mount Hanger 18 HD Media Server - http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/06/alienwares-hangar18-hd-1080p-media-server-announced-at-cedia/ ). The NV+ is available in 2TB with RAID for less than the Tenbox.

The HR20s need to be able to access shared drives on the network. Multiple HR20s on a network should be able to share between themselves as well.

A new hybrid drive would work better for an internal HR20 caching drive.


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

Why should D* care where we store the recorded content?


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## funhouse69 (Mar 26, 2007)

NetRaider said:


> Why should D* care where we store the recorded content?


If I had to guess Direct TV doesn't "Care" where the recorded content is stored and I'm sure if they could they would be more than happy to provide us with a DVR that had no DRM whatsoever but that wouldn't sit well with the content providers. Hell some of the content providers are nervous about component outputs these days because they can't put DRM in that stream like they can in HDMI. I guess HBO doesn't want a nice HD copy of one of their "Originals" showing up online 

So as much as I am 100% with you that having the ability to swap eSATA drives between HR20's or having some kind of shared network storage would be great it probably never will happen. Of course D* could make it so that we can share the content between "Authorized" receivers based on our accounts. That is probably the best we will ever see.


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

NetRaider said:


> I can stream multiple HD streams now over my gigabit network


Is this wrong? At the time, Earl thought the HR-20 was 100Mbit.

In any case, your fancy pieces of hardware are able to stream that fast exactly because they have hardware built into them to assist with the networking overhead.
If the cpu on the HR-20 is high-touch when it comes to networking (which it probably isn't on the receive side, or else VOD wouldn't work very well, but may very well be on the transmit side), then there isn't anything they could do in software to support the situation you want.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Vor said:


> Is this wrong? At the time, Earl thought the HR-20 was 100Mbit.


No, it's dead on, the ethernet port on the HR20s is only 100Mb.


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

My point exactly. HR20 needs fully functional Gigabit ethernet.


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

Vor said:


> Is this wrong? At the time, Earl thought the HR-20 was 100Mbit.
> 
> In any case, your fancy pieces of hardware are able to stream that fast exactly because they have hardware built into them to assist with the networking overhead.
> If the cpu on the HR-20 is high-touch when it comes to networking (which it probably isn't on the receive side, or else VOD wouldn't work very well, but may very well be on the transmit side), then there isn't anything they could do in software to support the situation you want.


" Fancy hardware?" Gigabit ethernet is the standard. Who would install anything less today? Gigabit NAS is not pricey when compared to other home theater products.


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## Cyrus (Oct 22, 2006)

Ken S said:


> On the other hand...the forum hasn't been all that inviting either.


No Kidding, I think the response has been pretty harsh. A more diplomatic response probably would have been more conductive to a dialogue with the Tenbox people.

I think this product is probably not intended for those of us who are willing to do a lot of research and get the best deals. But for those who like to spend money (and can afford it) on their electronic toys without spending time researching and reading message boards it's probably a good deal.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

NetRaider said:


> Gigabit ethernet is the standard. Who would install anything less today? Gigabit NAS is not pricey when compared to other home theater products.


Emerging standard, maybe, but defacto standard for the majority of residential users... Not by a long shot.

Now if you are talking corporate use, then I'd agree with your statement 100%.

I do agree with you though, it would be nice if the HR20 were designed to be more future proof and actually have a Gb ethernet port on it.

But now... :backtotop


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Bathel said:


> Not that it means anything, but....
> 
> Most Computers don't write to the HDD constantly. Most DVR do... there is a difference between using a HDD in a computer and using one in a DVR. Having said that... unless it's critical data that's need to be stored, why would you ever pay that HUGE price they're asking? Buy a cheap drive ... if it dies, buy another one. By the time it dies, new drives will be twice the size and the cost of the same size drive will be half the cost.
> 
> I don't see where the TenDrive offers anything "new" or of "value" to the end user, but I'll try to keep an open mind; However, I've seen other usless items being marketed and sold for even more that seem to find a market...


My best guess is that a Drive designed for DVR use is more duarable than a computer drive for DVR use. 
Why should any EHD say not for DVR use or for DVR use. The more information onn the box, the more Joe Average buyer dithers indecisively. Too many choices and options seems to lead many to duck the issue and trust the clerk in the store who says this is best.

Critical data = video? probably not to many. How many are upset when they have to exchange their DVRs and all the recordings are gone? I've seen people here on this and other sites that are truly upset when their stored content is gone.

I knew someone that was really upset when her cable went out during the last episode of Gray's Anatomy this year. Imagine how upset she would have been if ti had been DVR'd and she was waiting to sit down and enjoy it that weekend and her DVR drive died.

Is anything on TV critical? Depends. How many people were jumping ship to DirecTV or Dishnetwork because of BTN only? Or my Brothers wife when the Yankees started YES and her cable company didn't get it right away. The Vitriol out of her mouth about that *)&^%)* cable company. 
She would have paid anything to get her beloved Yankees. Sports fanatics.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

TBoneit said:


> My best guess is that a Drive designed for DVR use is more duarable than computer drives.


+1, to a point. E.g., Seagate's specs for "Mean Time Between Failure" for their free-standing FreeAgent drives vs. their DB35 "DVR" drives is 1.2 million hours vs. 1.4 million hours. So on paper, "yes", they are more reliable.  /s


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Thaedron said:


> Emerging standard, maybe, but defacto standard for the majority of residential users... Not by a long shot.
> 
> Now if you are talking corporate use, then I'd agree with your statement 100%.
> 
> ...


My guess. The designers were never given a list of features that said we want to stream video over the network to other units. And the only reason it has a 100Mb ethernet port is for IPTV use and maybe calling home.

100Mb is more than fast enough for the intended use. How many people have internet connectivity that could even come close to saturating in ethernet port. My guess is darn few.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

:backtotop

A lot of these last few pages, have drifted into other topics that are worthy of their own threads.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> My best guess is that a Drive designed for DVR use is more duarable than a computer drive for DVR use.
> Why should any EHD say not for DVR use or for DVR use. The more information onn the box, the more Joe Average buyer dithers indecisively. Too many choices and options seems to lead many to duck the issue and trust the clerk in the store who says this is best.
> 
> Critical data = video? probably not to many. How many are upset when they have to exchange their DVRs and all the recordings are gone? I've seen people here on this and other sites that are truly upset when their stored content is gone.
> ...


They wouldn't say it on the box...they would, however, say it on the warranty if they had any reason to believe that it would cause the drive to not be able to perform for that period of time.


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## Andrew67 (Aug 13, 2007)

Bathel said:


> Not that it means anything, but....
> 
> Most Computers don't write to the HDD constantly. Most DVR do... there is a difference between using a HDD in a computer and using one in a DVR.


That's not right at all. Computers do write to the HDD constantly in millions of situations. Including database servers, web servers, and other high availibility apps used in corporate settings. Do you think the drives at Google are not writing data 24 hours a day? What about the drives used at Apple for iTunes? Do you think that Google is using magical drives not available to the average consumer? Because they've released white papers detailing drive failures and they use off the shelf drives as sold at Fry's, Newegg, Circuit City, etc.

Computer hard drives are no different than DVR hard drives. It's all marketing.


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## erp2863 (Aug 24, 2007)

Andrew67 said:


> ncluding database servers, web servers, and other high availibility apps used in corporate settings. Do you think the drives at Google are not writing data 24 hours a day? What about the drives used at Apple for iTunes? Do you think that Google is using magical drives not available to the average consumer?


Well, yes there is a difference, maybe they are called Enterprise Class storage devices.... :eek2:

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/index.asp?cat=2

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/servers/

http://www.hitachigst.com/portal/site/en/menuitem.c4f66855148dedd52d4fed26eac4f0a0/


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Steve said:


> TBoneit said:
> 
> 
> > My best guess is that a Drive designed for DVR use is more duarable than computer drives.
> ...


-1, because as you point out, those examples of the MTBF between a supposed "DVR disk" and a "regular" disk are pretty insignificant.... about 16%..... which means that both drives will be horribly obsolete by the time they reach the average age when they statistically might be expected to fail.... 160 years from now vs. 137 years from now..... in addition to your HR20 and *YOU* being long dead by the time the disk might fail.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> -1, because as you point out, those examples of the MTBF between a supposed "DVR disk" and a "regular" disk are pretty insignificant.... about 16%..... which means that both drives will be horribly obsolete by the time they reach the average age when they statistically might be expected to fail.... 160 years from now vs. 137 years from now..... in addition to your HR20 and *YOU* being long dead by the time the disk might fail.


In 137 years nobody will even know what an esata hard drive is. Who here remembers 8in floppy disks?


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## NetRaider (Aug 31, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> In 137 years nobody will even know what an esata hard drive is. Who here remembers 8in floppy disks?


I do. Have one in my "archive." Do you remember IBM Mag Cards? The first word processor that used one magnetic card card for each page of the document. Cards were in the shape of an IBM paper punch card complete with clipped corner. Cards were black because they had no protective cover like floppies. System tied to a Selectric typewriter. Boy we have come far in a few years.


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## erp2863 (Aug 24, 2007)

Too bad you guys don't understand how MTBF is calculated. Do you really think that it is calculated on a single drive? If so, did they turn the test drive on 1 million hours ago?

Here is a good explanation:

http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/perf/qual/specMTBF.html


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

erp2863 said:


> Too bad you guys don't understand how MTBF is calculated. Do you really think that it is calculated on a single drive? If so, did they turn the test drive on 1 million hours ago?
> 
> Here is a good explanation:
> 
> http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/perf/qual/specMTBF.html


Too bad we don't understand???? I think that we are all intellegent enough to figure out that they didn't run a drive for 137 years but that the MTBF number is based on a statistical projection.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

NetRaider said:


> I do. Have one in my "archive." Do you remember IBM Mag Cards?


I do, but I never trusted that new-fangled technology where you can't see the data and verify that it is actually there, so I back up my whole video collection to punched paper tape which I then store in a fire-proof safe. :grin:


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## erp2863 (Aug 24, 2007)

cartrivision said:


> Too bad we don't understand???? I think that we are all intellegent enough to figure out that they didn't run a drive for 137 years but that the MTBF number is based on a statistical projection.


Statistical projection that doesn't tell you much about how long you can expect your drive to function. :nono2:


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> I do, but I never trusted that new-fangled technology where you can't see the data and verify that it is actually there, so I back up my whole video collection to punched paper tape which I then store in a fire-proof safe. :grin:


that would be a big pile of paper for a hd movie :eek2:


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

erp2863 said:


> Statistical projection that doesn't tell you much about how long you can expect your drive to function. :nono2:


You are trying to argue a meaningless point about statistics. Nothing can tell you for sure how long you can expect any individual disk to last, but the point is I'm not going to pay a premium for a disk if the only difference is that it has a MTBF of 160 years vs. a MTBF of 137 years for the cheaper one.


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## Vor (Jul 5, 2007)

NetRaider said:


> " Fancy hardware?" Gigabit ethernet is the standard. Who would install anything less today? Gigabit NAS is not pricey when compared to other home theater products.


Look, the DVR works because all the little CPU in the HR-20 does is tell the Broadcom chip "record this tuner to this hard drive location". The cpu is not in the data path between the tuner and the hard drive, or else it would never be able to save the data at the rate it does.

The cpu IS, however, in the data path for the network port. So gluing in a Gigabit port won't do any good, because the CPU can't serve data to the remote hard drive fast enough, the ASIC needs to have an iSCSI stack on it instead of (or in addition to) a SATA stack to stream the video directly to the network port from the tuner.

The hardware you mention has that ability. The HR-20 doesn't. Therefore, the pipe dream of a big central storage that's shared between multiple HR-20s isn't physically possible, all HR-20 storage must be within 2 meters (cable length limit of eSATA) of the HR-20. Unless you use the local hard drive as a big cache and then trickle data up to a networked storage device, as I mentioned before.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> In 137 years nobody will even know what an esata hard drive is. Who here remembers 8in floppy disks?


I resemble that  . Radio Shack had some business model computers that used 8" floppies.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> In 137 years nobody will even know what an esata hard drive is. Who here remembers 8in floppy disks?


Those of us that still remember punch cards! :lol: /steve


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## DrJohnC (Sep 8, 2007)

What a nice-looking piece of equipment for the theater room.

Let's see, 12 Blu-Ray movies @ $30.00 apiece = $360 ... and 10 HD-DVD Movies for $28.00 apiece = $280 for a total of $640.00 (and this is two months). Over six months of using a TenBox to record HD content from the HD Movie Channels, the savings will surely accumulate ... based on the quality of the TenBox movies being at least equal to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. I wonder what the WAF will be on this item?


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## Andrew67 (Aug 13, 2007)

DrJohnC said:


> based on the quality of the TenBox movies being at least equal to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.


Why would the movies be equivalent to Blue-Ray or HD-DVD? You need to record them from OTA or DirecTV and that's not even close to BR or HD-DVD, not even close. It's a nice looking piece of equipment, yes. But is it worth the price? Maybe, maybe not.


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