# I'm done with the HR20 and DirecTV



## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

Let me start by saying that I've been a loyal DirecTV customer for 4 years. The earlier DirecTivo units were great, and the picture quality was wonderful. However, the HR20 is driving me nuts. I'm afraid it's time for me to leave DirecTV.

I've had the HR20 for 3 months and I just can't take it anymore. I run into a bug with this unit at least once a day, and I'm not willing to wait for fixes any longer. It's the worst piece of consumer electronics that I have ever owned.

Back in October and November I had these bugs:

1) The receiver frequently locks up, and we have to reset it every few days.

2) It frequently won't play back recorded programs. It gets stuck at the beginning.

3) It doesn't work with Pay Per View. We ordered about $20 worth of PPV programs, and it records them. However, it can't play them.

4) Sometimes the video and audio get out of sync.

5) Sometimes the screen goes black, and we have to reset the unit.

6) Sometimes it gets stuck playing a program, and you have to fast forward a couple of minutes before you can watch again.

7) Sometimes it asks to delete a program while I'm in the middle of watching it, and nowhere near the end of the program. 

8) Sometimes it gets into a mode where both channels are in use, and it displays a warning that says you can't switch channels. It won't let you exit this mode by pressing Exit or Guide, or any other button. A reset is required.

DirecTV fixed many of these bugs through software updates, so there was a glimmer of hope. However, many of the bugs remained and I contacted customer service. They suggested that I completely reformat the drive and start over. I did that, and then reprogrammed all of my Series Links. (Oh that was fun!) However, many of the bugs still remain. I won't list all of them here.

However, these are the bugs that I encountered within THE LAST 8 HOURS:

1) Changing channels takes a LONG time. (About 6 seconds.) I had to restart to fix this.

2) When I pause live TV and press play again, it won't start playback. I have to switch channels to fix it. This causes everything in the buffer to get thrown out. I had to restart to fix this.

3) There was a power failure today right while I was in the middle of recording a PPV program. It had recorded 4/5th of the program. The HR20 rebooted and the program was gone. The whole recording was deleted.

4) I was switching between PPV channels. It kept asking if I wanted to pay for the current show. This got annoying, so I switched to local channels (channel 2). Then each time I switched local channels it asked if I wanted to pay for the PPV program that I was on a while back. It got stuck in this mode for a long time. I almost had to reset.

5) It got stuck in a mode where it says two programs are recording and can't be tuned to the channel that I want. There is no way to get out of this mode. Pressing Exit, Guide, or any of the onscreen buttons won't help.

6) Tonight the DVR recorded a re-run of Mythbusters even though the series link is set to record first run episodes only.

7) I was watching the local news tonight on a local MPEG4 channel. The audio kept pausing, probably 9 or 10 times throughout the program.

In short, my HR20 fails it's most basic task: It does not reliably record and playback programs. If it can't do that, then I have to give it up. I'm sorry DirecTV, but it's time for me to leave.



James


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

James,

Sorry to see you so frustrated, I sure do understand. I've seen many of those problems at times too, so you know its not just you. 

If you switch to Dish, hop over to those forums here at dbstalk. 

May you have a very Happy New Year, no matter what you decide for a TV provider.
Tom


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Bummer you're having such troubles ...



jbrasure said:


> However, these are the bugs that I encountered within THE LAST 8 HOURS:
> 
> 1) Changing channels takes a LONG time. (About 6 seconds.) I had to restart to fix this.


Hmm. This sees to be the norm. I'm surprised that you were able to fix this.



jbrasure said:


> 2) When I pause live TV and press play again, it won't start playback. I have to switch channels to fix it. This causes everything in the buffer to get thrown out. I had to restart to fix this.


You were able to duplicate this problem? This sounds like a lockup, but if it happens every time you do it, then something odd is going on.



jbrasure said:


> 3) There was a power failure today right while I was in the middle of recording a PPV program. It had recorded 4/5th of the program. The HR20 rebooted and the program was gone. The whole recording was deleted.


This is a function of the software .. the software should handle this better. I seem to recall this working as expected .. 2 partials rather than a deleted.



jbrasure said:


> 4) I was switching between PPV channels. It kept asking if I wanted to pay for the current show. This got annoying, so I switched to local channels (channel 2). Then each time I switched local channels it asked if I wanted to pay for the PPV program that I was on a while back. It got stuck in this mode for a long time. I almost had to reset.


I'd call DirecTV for credits on this one. This sounds like a software bug that is easy enough to duplicate in a lab, but @ $4.99/PPV, none of us want to try and duplicate it.



jbrasure said:


> 5) It got stuck in a mode where it says two programs are recording and can't be tuned to the channel that I want. There is no way to get out of this mode. Pressing Exit, Guide, or any of the onscreen buttons won't help.


Hmm .. Someone else mentioned that they would like to be able to go to a particular program rather than stopping the 2 that are running. It seems that it doesn't work as expected in any event.



jbrasure said:


> 6) Tonight the DVR recorded a re-run of Mythbusters even though the series link is set to record first run episodes only.


This is not a DirecTV problem, but is a problem with the Tribune guide data. You're right to complain, but DirecTV can only do so much.



jbrasure said:


> 7) I was watching the local news tonight on a local MPEG4 channel. The audio kept pausing, probably 9 or 10 times throughout the program.


This is most likely a problem with the local broadcast channel.



jbrasure said:


> In short, my HR20 fails it's most basic task: It does not reliably record and playback programs. If it can't do that, then I have to give it up. I'm sorry DirecTV, but it's time for me to leave.


OK.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I'm wondering if a partial PPV is automatically deleted since its PPV? Or if the fact that it was deleted indicated that the recording was going to be bad anyway?

Tom


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## BJM (Dec 9, 2006)

I must say, after an initial break in period the first week or so (2 or 3 RBR's), I'm quite happy with my HR20. Of course, I'm new to HD so maybe I'm just hypnotized by the picture.

I'm not sure I'm a typical user, though. I rarely watch live TV, so could care less about "dual live buffers"; I don't archive a lot of stuff (haven't dropped below 40% available yet); my HR20 is connected by component, not HDMI; and I don't believe I can get HD OTA (though I need to check this out more).


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Beautiful rant!

Sorry about your troubles man.

Xaa


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## HDfreddy (Dec 9, 2006)

I am sorry that you feel this way. I must say however, that I agree with you 100%. Isn't sad when you set down and think about it, that all of us as AV freaks are willing to continue to put up with a unit that offers so much, yet delivers so little. 

Everyday, either my wife or me have some problem with our HR20 and it is frustruating. The biggest pain in the rear is the high percentage of bad recordings. I had to record Sahara 3 times to finally get it to where we could watch and hear it. Unfortunately it wasn't perfect. We had video skips and audio drops off and on throughout the recording. 

Keep the faith for a while longer is what I am saying to myself and hopefully the Direct TV folks will hire some of the Tivo techs to work on the recording aspects. 

HDfreddy


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

HDfreddy said:


> I am sorry that you feel this way. I must say however, that I agree with you 100%. Isn't sad when you set down and think about it, that all of us as AV freaks are willing to continue to put up with a unit that offers so much, yet delivers so little.


If that were true, you'd be right. fact is, a minority of users have these problems, which is why there isn't a mass exodus.


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## I.M. Nobody (Aug 25, 2006)

I have felt like you more than once but hang in there it does get better. Note ! I put a UPS in front of the box and a lot of the problems went away. Hope you have a good New Year.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If that were true, you'd be right. fact is, a minority of users have these problems, which is why there isn't a mass exodus.


Can you quote your source and the percentage of customers that are not having problems versus the percentage that are having problems?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Can you quote your source and the percentage of customers that are not having problems versus the percentage that are having problems?


I cannot quote any source, but IMHO, pretty much everyone has had some problem with the HR20. I would, however, agree that for most folks the benefits outweigh the problems.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

brott said:


> I cannot quote any source, but IMHO, pretty much everyone has had some problem with the HR20. I would, however, agree that for most folks the benefits outweigh the problems.


The benefits are what keep me working with the majority here to solve the problems. 

Have a Happy New Year,
Tom


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Can you quote your source and the percentage of customers that are not having problems versus the percentage that are having problems?


Why do we keep having this constantly keep being asked? It would seem to be a simple question if reversed, what is your source and the percentage of customers that are having problems? Please remember, this forum is basically visited by people if they are having problems, not by satisfied customers, so any poll percentage given from this site is completely out of skew. I have had very minimal problems with my recievers, and to be honest, have actually had more problems with my tivo based systems. I am one of the many people on here that use a UPS for the HR20's, just like I do with the HR10's. It is very possible some of the problems people experience are due to "dirty" electrisity, and it could be very possible that alot of the problems he is experiencing are due to this.
His system appears to be pretty wacked or something else, since his list of problems are a laundry list of problems described on this board. If he has this many problems on a normal basis, I am suprised he even still has the reciever. I have never heard of anyone having 3 bad recording of the same show, unless there is something wrong with his setup.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Might I suggest that anyone who tries to use the terms "most", "many", "lots", etc. have data to back up (and not be offended when someone asks for verification of said data)? Those who are trying to say "most" are "having problems" as well as those trying to say "most" are "not". Since we have limited, unscientific data, I contend we don't know. We only guess.

Until then I also suggest we celebrate what I think is the majority here at dbstalk--the people working to help others and help directv solve problems.
Thank you.

Have a very Happy New Year!
Tom


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Knon2000 said:


> Why do we keep having this constantly keep being asked? It would seem to be a simple question if reversed, what is your source and the percentage of customers that are having problems? Please remember, this forum is basically visited by people if they are having problems, not by satisfied customers, so any poll percentage given from this site is completely out of skew. I have had very minimal problems with my recievers, and to be honest, have actually had more problems with my tivo based systems. I am one of the many people on here that use a UPS for the HR20's, just like I do with the HR10's. It is very possible some of the problems people experience are due to "dirty" electrisity, and it could be very possible that alot of the problems he is experiencing are due to this.
> His system appears to be pretty wacked or something else, since his list of problems are a laundry list of problems described on this board. If he has this many problems on a normal basis, I am suprised he even still has the reciever. I have never heard of anyone having 3 bad recording of the same show, unless there is something wrong with his setup.


I'm not making any claims to the number of units with problems or without. I'm not making claims about percentages. Others make those claims and given the fact that I don't know, I don't have and have never seen these numbers published, I'd like to know the source of these figures from those that make these claims. As tibber states it's best if one avoids these labels of "most", "many", "lots" or actual percentages if one doesn't have the figures to backup those labels.


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## dwenn (Oct 26, 2006)

OK so I had a 2 day problem with getting the Pics and Music to work and it still doesn't work exactly like I would like but I trust it will get better.
Outside of that and some minor reception issues with one OTA channel. I have had no problems with the HR20.

I don't say this to poke at jbrasure's problems but just to say that there are boxes that work and happy customers out here.

Best of luck jbrasure.


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## solo1026 (Mar 21, 2006)

I for one was happy with my HR20 until I got the upgrade to 0x10b. Now I'm having the same problems as everyone "1/2 of my recording are no good, Black screen, and 771" I have been with DTV for over 10 years and I think the biggest mistake DTV has done was to get away from Tivo and come out with this undone DVR software I do know they will sooner or later fix these bugs but how many customers will be gone?
Hell I will try to stay but my wife had it already!

I wish all of you a very Happy New Year !pride


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

I would think that when he stated a "minority" of users have been having problems, that could be considered a false statement, since I am sure that as a practical matter, no one can have a purely problem free unit, without even a hiccup. I am sure, however, that the vast majority of users are probably satisfied with the unit, or at the bare minimum, willing to accept the problems that they have had, otherwise, such as was pointed out, there would probably be a mass exodus. 
Can everyone honestly say they have NEVER had a missed recording, or a system freeze-up on the "GOLD STANDARD" Tivo? That is doubtful, unless you never, ever, recorded during a rain-storm, had a power outage, or had a program guide error, ect.... I am sure that those people may have been upset for a bit with the problem, but moved passed it, as I would think the customers with the HR20's probably would give the same pass to some of the minor problems that they have probably encountered. Now, I am not saying that having to do a RBR every week, or having partial recording, or whatnot is minor, but if it only happened a couple times for an average user, it would be considered minor, at least in my mind.
So, saying that, can any of the us on this board say that we have NEVER had issues with any of our systems? If they have been minor ones, would we say that that makes them dissatisfied with the service? Those that have had allot of minor issues or a few major ones would probably be dissatisfied, but those of us that have had a couple, may just view it as a nuisance, and not a reason to go on a rant, not that anyone actually has in this thread.
As far as proof that there is minority or a majority of users with major problems with their HR20's, if anyone wants to actually have it, would need to take the time to read thru the SEC filing when it comes out. There may be some clues in there, otherwise, there will be no proof to be had, at least for this forum.

Also, to let people on this board know, I am a HR20 lover, since I just got my 3rd, but I still have both of my HR10's chugging along.

BTW, for people that have these High Tech receivers, please use a UPS, since most tech gear does not like dirty electric current. Some surge suppressors do work really well, however, the added benefit of battery backup is well worth the money. I work nights, so ALL of my Prime time viewing is done via time shifting, and nothing is worse than coming home to a froze system, which I did several times with my HR10's
Hope everyone has a good New Year


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

I'm not so sure getting a UPS will fix any of the software problems.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

glennb said:


> I'm not so sure getting a UPS will fix any of the software problems.


 I wonder sometimes about the froze systems that people report. How many of them can be attributed to a voltage spike? I would think that at least a few of them can be. I have UPS's on all my HR-20's, and I can verify that I have NEVER had a frozen system. 
So in my opinion, it possibly can fix problems, just not "software" problems. So, what can it hurt to use one? If anything, it would have prevented one of the problems the OP actually reported, when he said he had a power outage.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> Can you quote your source and the percentage of customers that are not having problems versus the percentage that are having problems?


"They said so".........there........now they've been quoted. 

_Actually, the numbers are from someone inside who is responsible for assembling statistics on equipment deployment, returns, and problem reports. He does weekly numbers for his bosses. What a job, huh? _


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Knon2000 said:


> Can everyone honestly say they have NEVER had a missed recording, or a system freeze-up on the "GOLD STANDARD" Tivo?


The TIVO unit was anything but a Gold standard....you might want to visit tivocommunity.com to check out the thousands of problem posts there...

The HR20 is about 4 months old, the Tivo box many years old. Let the HR20 grow up to be maybe 6 months old, and then compare apples to apples.


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## solo1026 (Mar 21, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The TIVO unit was anything but a Gold standard....you might want to visit tivocommunity.com to check out the thousands of problem posts there...
> 
> The HR20 is about 4 months old, the Tivo box many years old. Let the HR20 grow up to be maybe 6 months old, and then compare apples to apples.


You maybe right but let us wait 6 months and see

How many people here work for DTV?


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

Thanks for your comments everybody (and thanks for putting up with my rant). I just had to vent when I started this thread. Ahhhhh, it felt so good! :grin:

It does seem like many people like the HR20. I didn't mean to rain on their parade. Please don't take offense HR20 fans. 

Back in October when I got the HR20, I viewed it largely as an experiment. I wanted to compare it to my Tivo for a few months, and see which unit I liked better. I promised myself that I would wait 2 or 3 months before judging. I really wanted to give the HR20 a chance, and I hoped like crazy that I would like it, because it's the future of DirecTV. Now 3 months are over, and the Tivo HR10-250 wins hands down. Dang it!

I've had the HR20 and the Tivo HR10-250 running in separate rooms for 3 months recording the same programs. During that time the Tivo never had to be reset, never crashed, never missed a program, never did anything wrong. It was flawless. During the same time period the HR20 was reset probably 20 times, received multiple software updates, had it's hard drive reformatted, lost several PPV programs, and encounters bugs on a daily basis. I just can't stand it.

In spite of the HR20 problems, I wanted to stick with it. I kept telling myself that DirecTV would fix the problems. However, my wife finally lost it when another recorded program couldn't be viewed the other day. I'm afraid that was the last straw.

Also, I noticed how often I'm hanging out on this forum since I bought my HR20. Don't get me wrong. I love this forum, and everybody has been very helpful. However, I've been a DirecTV customer for 4 years, and I never needed to visit this forum until I bought my HR20. Now I visit it daily. That doesn't say much for the HR20.

Now it's time to try another experiment <gulp>: I'm going to buy a Tivo Series 3 and give Comcast cable a chance. I have low expectations, and I imagine there will be some installation problems. However, it's been my experience that Comcast is ok once you get past the installation. I hope that is the case this time.

Ultimately my decision came down to this: I love DirectTV, and I love Tivo. Which do I love more? Tivo. It's a shame I can't have both.

Anyway, I'll give you guys an update in a month or two. Here I go into a scary new world!

James


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

The HR20 is awesome. I will take it off your hands


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

jbrasure said:


> Now it's time to try another experiment <gulp>: I'm going to buy a Tivo Series 3 and give Comcast cable a chance. I have low expectations, and I imagine there will be some installation problems. However, it's been my experience that Comcast is ok once you get past the installation. I hope that is the case this time.
> 
> Ultimately my decision came down to this: I love DirectTV, and I love Tivo. Which do I love more? Tivo. It's a shame I can't have both.
> 
> ...


You might want to check out www.tivocommunity.com. I don't have anything personal against TIVO, but you might want to do some research over there first. The S3 has it's share of problems as well.

I haven't read this whole thread, so....Have you had D* send you out a replacement yet?

Good luck to you either way.


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## wakajawaka (Sep 27, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The TIVO unit was anything but a Gold standard....you might want to visit tivocommunity.com to check out the thousands of problem posts there...
> 
> The HR20 is about 4 months old, the Tivo box many years old. Let the HR20 grow up to be maybe 6 months old, and then compare apples to apples.


From my POV, TIVO is most certainly the Gold Standard when it comes to reliably recording and playing back programs. Which is 99% of what I want my DVR to do. Which is why I will keep my HR10-250 as my main system until the HR20, ahem, grows up  I don't care how many HD channels D* adds that I won't be able to watch. (at least on my main system)


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

I've been a loyal D* sub since 1995, subscribed to the whole shebang since the beginning including NFL-Sunday Ticket every year (that's a big part of the reason I switched) and have owned TiVos and DirecTiVos since 2000. 

Now, with the HR20 and it's myraid of bugs and the fact that each software update does NOT fix the previous bugs and yet introduces NEW ones, I am in the same boat! I am for the first time in 16 years considering going back to the cable company .. something I swore that I would NEVER do!

D* needs to stop with the insane idea that they can design their own DVR's! They can't get this one right, and just go over to the other forum related to their previous DVR and see that they still haven't gotten THAT one fixed! You can say that the TiVo interface is dated .. it probably is. I like some of the design changes of the HR20 .. namely beng able to view the ToDo List, Now Playing list, and settings without dumping out of live or recorded programs. I also like the rf-remote. Still, TiVo designs DVR's that work, and have a VALID Beta program. D* needs to stop with the experiment and get back to satisfying their customers with CONTENT and customer service and let the adults at TiVo build the DVRs!


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

brott said:


> I cannot quote any source, but IMHO, pretty much everyone has had some problem with the HR20. And *"IMO"* I would, however, agree that for most folks the benefits outweigh the problems.


I would think your should make the following edit as listed above.

There are lots of us who do not feel that way. We just are stuck with a two year agreement and 23 more months to vent.

The next software version should be being worked on and I am looking to see if D*TV is going to check out our wants this time instead of working their tail off to try to stabilize and "activate" promised features as done in the most current version.

I have yet to see a company do a worse job with product than D*TV has done with the HR-20. It would be my guess that the 20 stood for the percent of advertised features (%20) that actually worked when the unit was shipped.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> "They said so".........there........now they've been quoted.
> 
> _Actually, the numbers are from someone inside who is responsible for assembling statistics on equipment deployment, returns, and problem reports. He does weekly numbers for his bosses. What a job, huh? _


Are you serious here? :icon_stup You sarcastically claim there's no info, yet in the smallest size font available you also claim you have inside info on these numbers? Why not share those? Why not share your sources?

As I have guessed we are now playing on the Juvenile level, and as a result I must call you for "Shenanigans". Look it up if you don't know the meaning of that word, or quite possible check with your inside sources as they seem to provide you with all the knowledge you need to exist.

You have just solidified my opinion of every post you've had. You can't backup anything you say so in a small font you elude to the fact you have an inside contact, oh, maybe the next Earl. Wow, I'm impressed....NOT. With a response such as that I have labeled you as an unknowing Troll or a Earl Wanna be, not sure on which.

I'm guessing the great majority of the members of this forum (yes, I will use the the majority term in this instance) will also label you a such. Dude, don't claim inside knowledge when you don't have it. If you do indeed have it, IMO you're only out now is to publish that info you've been given. You can't make huge claims as you have only to back down and say...."I can't divulge that info". Totally weak.

So, what is it? Are you a troll or do you have info from DTV? If you're not a troll why not tell us those numbers you claim to know?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> You might want to check out www.tivocommunity.com. I don't have anything personal against TIVO, but you might want to do some research over there first. The S3 has it's share of problems as well.


Lots of folks here reference TCF for all the problems the S3 has. If you actually go through those threads there are some problems. But they don't come close to comparing to the problems/limitations seen by users of the R15 and HR20.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The TIVO unit was anything but a Gold standard....you might want to visit tivocommunity.com to check out the thousands of problem posts there...
> 
> The HR20 is about 4 months old, the Tivo box many years old. Let the HR20 grow up to be maybe 6 months old, and then compare apples to apples.


I put quotes around "Gold Standard" since so many people on here seem to keep stating that the HR20 is junk compared to their "Perfect", "Rock Solid", "Never Missed a Recording", ect.... HR10's

In my personal experience, I have had missed recordings, system lockups, guide failures, recordings of repeats, conflicts that didn't appear since the new shows where not in the guide yet when the season pass was created, except in my case, these problems were on the HR10's, not the HR20's. For me the HR10's are far from perfect. Simply put, the HR10 is not rock solid, nor is the HR20. 
My point was that I could not believe that anyone could really claim that their HR10's were perfect, but still hammer on the HR20 for a similar defect.
BTW, I came on to the forums since the first HR20 I got was to replace a bad HR10. I was not familiar with an HR20, so I went online, found this site, and did some reading. Needless to say, I was worried about the reciever. Luckly, I still have not had anything remotely considered a major problem, other than the fact that OTA was not originally enabled, since I cannot get HD locals. 
Anyway, I now have 3 HR20's, so D* must be doing something right on at least some of the recievers.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Lots of folks here reference TCF for all the problems the S3 has. If you actually go through those threads there are some problems. But they don't come close to comparing to the problems/limitations seen by users of the R15 and HR20.


Well I'm not trying to start a TIVO vs. HR20 thread (neither are you). I just think it's important for ther OP or anyone else to do some research before putting out hundreds of dollars on a new box. I've posted this before, I still use a couple of TIVO's and for how I use the HR20's, they work for me. I just do basic recordings, pause, play, etc. And 10 minutes ago one of my HR20's locked up changing channels:grin:. I had to do a RBR. 
For me it's easy, all of my upgrades have been free and they have NFLST. I can tolerate it until they get things worked out. We're both computer geeks, I guess I've become accustomed to rough product launches.


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

:listenup:


NFLnut said:


> I've been a loyal D* sub since 1995, subscribed to the whole shebang since the beginning including NFL-Sunday Ticket every year (that's a big part of the reason I switched) and have owned TiVos and DirecTiVos since 2000.
> 
> Now, with the HR20 and it's myraid of bugs and the fact that each software update does NOT fix the previous bugs and yet introduces NEW ones, I am in the same boat! I am for the first time in 16 years considering going back to the cable company .. something I swore that I would NEVER do!
> 
> D* needs to stop with the insane idea that they can design their own DVR's! They can't get this one right.... D* needs to stop with the experiment and get back to satisfying their customers with CONTENT and customer service and let the adults at TiVo build the DVRs!


Ah you are preaching to the choir my man. FIOS looks better and better every time I have to unplug this damn box to get it to reboot from its BSOD guide only state.

Tell em, tell em till the heavens fall down. Right on the Money - provide me content not components.


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## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

I must be part of a huge minority then because my problems with the HR20 have been very very low and I visit the forums and post here daily.



Knon2000 said:


> Please remember, this forum is basically visited by people if they are having problems, not by satisfied customers, .


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Knon2000 said:


> I put quotes around "Gold Standard" since so many people on here seem to keep stating that the HR20 is junk compared to their "Perfect", "Rock Solid", "Never Missed a Recording", ect.... HR10's
> 
> In my personal experience, I have had missed recordings, system lockups, guide failures, recordings of repeats, conflicts that didn't appear since the new shows where not in the guide yet when the season pass was created, except in my case, these problems were on the HR10's, not the HR20's. For me the HR10's are far from perfect. Simply put, the HR10 is not rock solid, nor is the HR20.
> My point was that I could not believe that anyone could really claim that their HR10's were perfect, but still hammer on the HR20 for a similar defect.
> ...


I'll add some clarification to anything I may have posted. I have stated that as long as I've had my DTivo units they have never missed a recording that I could not determine why the recording was missed. If the guide data was bad, or is there was a power failure I understand that and that's not something that any DVR can handle. That's not what at least I refer to when I state I've never had a problem with Tivos. That's different than the R15/HR20 which doesn't record a show and history doesn't tell you why. Or does record a program but you cannot watch. So, other than guide problems, power failures or rain fade, my Tivos (SD and HD) have never missed a recording and have never recorded a show I could not watch. I cannot say that about my R15.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Well I'm not trying to start a TIVO vs. HR20 thread (neither are you). I just think it's important for ther OP or anyone else to do some research before putting out hundreds of dollars on a new box. I've posted this before, I still use a couple of TIVO's and for how I use the HR20's, they work for me. I just do basic recordings, pause, play, etc. And 10 minutes ago one of my HR20's locked up changing channels:grin:. I had to do a RBR.
> For me it's easy, all of my upgrades have been free and they have NFLST. I can tolerate it until they get things worked out. We're both computer geeks, I guess I've become accustomed to rough product launches.


I agree, there's no need for another one of those threads. Folks with HR20s have problems and folks with Tivos have problems. Why someone wants to call attention to the fact Tivos have problems as a lame attempt at defending their HR20 is beyond me. Yet some feel the need to do that. Almost like some OC disorder.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

I see that you have upgraded your tivo's, and in doing so, I cannot possibly see how you can compare apples to apples here, when you have oranges.
That being said, I still don't understand how anyone can have had a Tivo reciever for any long length of time, and has never, ever experienced a problem. I know I have a good set-up at my place, and I have experienced freezes on all my tivo recievers, the r10's and the HR10's. Maybe I was just unlucky with them, like you seem to be unlucky with the HR20. I guess D* sent me your batch of bad Tivo's, and sent you my bad batch of HR20's.
From looking on another thread here, it would appear the vast majority of posters to that thread are recommending that the OP gets the HR20, so if that is of any use to your majority, minority questions from earlier, please peruse that thread. Actually, the shear discrepancy of pro verse neg comments in that thread lead me to think that maybe most of the major problems have been resolved, or else all the ones with major problems are having to much fun celebrating the New Year to bother with it. Probably a combination of both. I am off to celebrate myself now.
Have a Happy New Year, and hope your HR20 treats you well in the coming months.
BTW, I have done the hacks on the r10 tivos too, and I cannot possibly blame you for doing it, since it is only opening up what should have been accessable from the start. I didn't want to mess with the HR10's since they are leased, and I didn't want to get screwed on them.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I agree, there's no need for another one of those threads. Folks with HR20s have problems and folks with Tivos have problems. Why someone wants to call attention to the fact Tivos have problems as a lame attempt at defending their HR20 is beyond me. Yet some feel the need to do that. Almost like some OC disorder.


I guess you are saying that I am the one with an OC disorder. Well, I beg to differ. I have a good sample size in my setup to voice my opinion that the Tivo is not as good as you claim it to be. Since it is the only units in my posession, I can claim them to not be reliable, just like you claim that the HR20 is unstable with your EXTREMELY limited sample size. I cannot put words into your mouth, but I sure as heck can put them into my own. I pointed out that the "Gold Standard" was not as good as some posters (YOU) seem to portray them to be, and to say otherwise is simply foolish. To say that calling attention to the problems on the tivos is a lame attempt is beyond me as well. It would appear that your not understanding the point of the post. I said that Tivo is not perfect, and in fact, in my case, the HR20's are VASTLY superior. If that is a lame attempt on my part, I am sorry, but I strongly disagree. It would seem that you are more interested in getting your point across than actually listening to anyone elses.


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## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Wolf you've stated you don't have a hr20. Why not get one? Oh i forgot you'd rather bash it before you get one. Not stable enough for you? Heard that too in a thread. After you get one I guess we'll see all your praises like all your doubts about equipment you don't have or have ever used.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> . Why someone wants to call attention to the fact Tivos have problems as a lame attempt at defending their HR20 is beyond me. Yet some feel the need to do that. Almost like some OC disorder.


I am not defending the HR20's, I am stating the Tivo's I have are not their equal, can't you understand that fact yet? It is not that hard to actually read what I am typing is it? I am trying to state that in my setup, the Tivo's have been less than reliable, but my 3(get that 3), HR20's have been very stable for me. Now that they have gotten OTA working, I have no complaints about them, and that clinched it, thus why I now have 3, instead of the 2 previously. Guess what, I retired one of the vaunted R10's when I installed the newest HR20. I am a supporter of the HR20, not a detractor of the HR10. Up til now, I had no reason to berate the HR10's on this list other than some minor issues I have mentioned in passing.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

dondude32 said:


> Wolf you've stated you don't have a hr20. Why not get one? Oh i forgot you'd rather bash it before you get one. Not stable enough for you? Heard that too in a thread. After you get one I guess we'll see all your praises like all your doubts about equipment you don't have or have ever used.


That is what I was trying to get across to him when I was comparing my sample size to his "EXTREMELY" limited, as in "NONE" sample size. It would seem that my "lame" attempt is at least warranted since I am actually discussing equipment that I am in possession of, compared to a certain poster. I guess the fact that I am a previous and current owner of of Tivo gives me a right to voice my opinion on his equipment, so here goes. Dude, until you get a HR20, you labeling me with having an OC disorder may have been misplaced. Read up on what an "OC" is, and see who in this thread actually fits the description the best. BTW, if you would actually purchase the receiver you are trashing, you would then no longer fit into that description.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Knon2000 said:


> That is what I was trying to get across to him when I was comparing my sample size to his "EXTREMELY" limited, as in "NONE" sample size. It would seem that my "lame" attempt is at least warranted since I am actually discussing equipment that I am in possession of, compared to a certain poster. I guess the fact that I am a previous and current owner of of Tivo gives me a right to voice my opinion on his equipment, so here goes. Dude, until you get a HR20, you labeling me with having an OC disorder may have been misplaced. Read up on what an "OC" is, and see who in this thread actually fits the description the best. BTW, if you would actually purchase the receiver you are trashing, you would then no longer fit into that description.


How dare you talk about something you actually know [about]. 
My HR has missed a few recordings & I have a replacement to see if things will change, but I can't possibly count since I'm trying to work through the problem.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Just from observing and reading the threads here, it seems like a lot of people experience infrequent issues of one sort or another with the HR20 among a variety of issues. Then there are some people, like the original poster who are plagued by a large number of issues in almost a constant deluge. 

Personally, I have not had my box long enough to make any kind of quality judgment on it, but I have not experienced any of the issue mentioned so far. For whatever reason it seems some installations are hit very hard with a lot of different issues, but I don't get the impression that is the norm.

As for the reliability of the TiVo, I would consider it very reliable. That being said, in my many years of owning TiVos I have had recordings not happen, I have come back from trips out of town where the TiVo just got stuck. I used to have problems with S1 units not infrequently where they would lose their will to change channels properly and I would lose all recordings from a few hours to a few days depending on how vigilant I was. I still remember some software "upgrades" where audio/video where thrashed as a result. One on the HD DirectTivo unit was especially bad, often ruining entire recordings, and this existed for a while. I won't even mention the fact that my HDMI port NEVER worked on that unit, apparently.

All that being said, I can still label my TiVos as having been, overall fairly reliable. 100% issue free? No where close to it. Like I said, I can't make any quality judgments yet as my HR20 has only been installed for 4 or 5 days, but it has gotten extensive use, and I have not had any of these debilitating problems others mention. Certainly if someone else can experience 8 or 10 different major issues in a small time frame, I would expect to have some problem in the first 5 days of usage. I will consider myself lucky for now.  Knock on wood.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

wakajawaka said:


> From my POV, TIVO is most certainly the Gold Standard when it comes to reliably recording and playing back programs. Which is 99% of what I want my DVR to do. Which is why I will keep my HR10-250 as my main system until the HR20, ahem, grows up  I don't care how many HD channels D* adds that I won't be able to watch. (at least on my main system)


If the HR10-250 is gold standard it is no wonder the economic picture of the world is in the toilet.

On my 4th one in a little under 2 years, the 4th one is locking up, not recording season passes, short recording the ones that it is recording. This unit is about to be introduced to the back 40 and a remington pump action. found a monkey with a drinking problem that has a super 8 movie camera to record, it will be a lot more reliable then this junk.

Before you ask, the unit is in a custom designed cabinent with sufficient cooling, and connected to a APC home theatre level UPS


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> Why not share your sources?


Because they'd like to keep their job.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> I agree, there's no need for another one of those threads. Folks with HR20s have problems and folks with Tivos have problems. Why someone wants to call attention to the fact Tivos have problems as a lame attempt at defending their HR20 is beyond me. Yet some feel the need to do that. Almost like some OC disorder.


Most likely because most posts are of the "HR20 sucks/is a POS and Tivo is perfect" variety. Thus the backlash by pointing out that Tivo isn't perfect either.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

S. DiThomas said:


> :listenup:
> 
> Ah you are preaching to the choir my man. FIOS looks better and better every time I have to unplug this damn box to get it to reboot from its BSOD guide only state.
> 
> Tell em, tell em till the heavens fall down. Right on the Money - provide me content not components.


Ummm, so why don't you switch to FIOS? I love DirecTV, love Sunday Ticket and I have little problems with my HR20 but if FIOS was actually available to me (maybe in 20 years around here) I'd be trying it out immediately if not switching.

I don't understand people who beat themselves up over these things if there are better (in their mind) options. Hopefully things will get better for you or you'll find another provider that can offer you better value.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Ummm, so why don't you switch to FIOS? I love DirecTV, love Sunday Ticket and I have little problems with my HR20 but if FIOS was actually available to me (maybe in 20 years around here) I'd be trying it out immediately if not switching.


Funny part is that FIOS has its own "issues" of stability. Not to worry, we have 10-20 years (2018-2020 is the best estimate in my area) of waiting for them to show up in most of the country during which they can perfect it.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Most likely because most posts are of the "HR20 sucks/is a POS and Tivo is perfect" variety. Thus the backlash by pointing out that Tivo isn't perfect either.


That's exactly my point bonscott. I understand the urge for some to do that, all I was just stating is that it's lame to counter a "HR20s suck" statement with "oh ya, well Tivos such more" reply. What's next, "my dad can beat up your dad"?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> That's exactly my point bonscott. I understand the urge for some to do that, all I was just stating is that it's lame to counter a "HR20s suck" statement with "oh ya, well Tivos such more" reply. What's next, "my dad can beat up your dad"?


Agreed. I am guilty myself.

Now on to a day of playing Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. Been looking forward to this day off for weeks.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

dondude32 said:


> Wolf you've stated you don't have a hr20. Why not get one? Oh i forgot you'd rather bash it before you get one. Not stable enough for you? Heard that too in a thread. After you get one I guess we'll see all your praises like all your doubts about equipment you don't have or have ever used.


What have I said that is not a true statement about the R15/HR20 DVR+ units? How have I bashed the poor HR20? Have I said the HR20 is a POS? No. Have I said the HR20 sucks? No. Honestly, let me know what "bashing" I've done here.

I've had a R15 for almost a year now and after that experience I've chosen to wait on the HR20. The HR20 owners have it much better than the R15 owners as there have been many bugs already fixed on the HR20 that still exist on the R15 and have existed for over a year. I don't need to own a HR20 to make observations about DTV's DVR+ units.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Agreed. I am guilty myself.
> 
> Now on to a day of playing Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. Been looking forward to this day off for weeks.


Good luck on that!!!


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Can you quote your source and the percentage of customers that are not having problems versus the percentage that are having problems?


I would like to cite the last 2 quarterly webcasts where D* stated VOLUNTARY churn is continuing to increase and in particular the most recent in which they (DTV) cited issues with the DVR boxes as a driver of that churn.

I don't know what issues they were talking about as they were completely debugged in May.

i cannot tell you if they are right, or what in particular is causing the increased churn. I just use this as slightly more than anecdotal evidence than D* believes that the DVR is increasing voluntary churn.

We will see if that number increased for a 3rd straight quarter, in about 6 weeks.

Voluntary churn is a bigger issue than involuntary as it is high-profitable/good credit customers they lose as oppossed to involuntary churn which is when D* ends unprofitable or delinquent relationships.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

whats a chum......


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

Churn is referring to the people that are leaving DTV, some are voluntary, such as people that are throughly fed up with the service, and are terminating their service. Involuntary are people that are simply not paying their bill. There are people that are leaving due to other factors such as relocating to residences without access to D* and such, however, I would think that right now, upset customers are probably the largest part of the Churn that is being discussed above.


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## DSids (Nov 2, 2006)

Anyone have any idea why I can not rewind a program that I am currently watching through either OTA or DTV? Every time I try to rewind to review a play or part of a show the HR20 locks up and you have to change the channel to get picture again...same thing happens if you try to pause...Any ideas?


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## cjhrph (Sep 11, 2003)

DSids said:


> Anyone have any idea why I can not rewind a program that I am currently watching through either OTA or DTV? Every time I try to rewind to review a play or part of a show the HR20 locks up and you have to change the channel to get picture again...same thing happens if you try to pause...Any ideas?


I am having the same problems today (see post). 3 RBR's on the same machine. It's ridiculous.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> 1) Changing channels takes a LONG time. (About 6 seconds.) I had to restart to fix this.


The long delay is normal (a feature). So I suspect you did not fix it. Sorry.



jbrasure said:


> 4) I was switching between PPV channels. It kept asking if I wanted to pay for the current show. This got annoying, so I switched to local channels (channel 2). Then each time I switched local channels it asked if I wanted to pay for the PPV program that I was on a while back. It got stuck in this mode for a long time. I almost had to reset.


One of your 2 input channels was still on the PPV channel. You have to make sure both are not on the PPV channels then it will stop asking. It did this to me after I bought a program. But other than this it worked as expected.



jbrasure said:


> 5) It got stuck in a mode where it says two programs are recording and can't be tuned to the channel that I want. There is no way to get out of this mode. Pressing Exit, Guide, or any of the onscreen buttons won't help.


As I said you have 2 input channels. If both are recording then obviously you cannot go to a 3rd. You have to manually stop recording one or go to something already recorded and watch it.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Because they'd like to keep their job.


How convenient. Quote unnamed sources within DTV, state their figures are correct and then tell anyone that asks...."oh, I can't tell you".

So, from all of that I classify you as a forum poster with alot of hot air, that likes to be heard and likes to make claims of "inside sources" yet cannot devulge those sources due to national security.

Ah, bottom line....you're full of it. You don't have any inside source, you don't have any inside info and you just a sad sack sitting at their PC trying to make something of their pathetic life. Of course, as always, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

But, for future reference, I will call you on statements you make from your secret sources from here on out.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> How convenient. Quote unnamed sources within DTV, state their figures are correct and then tell anyone that asks...."oh, I can't tell you".
> 
> So, from all of that I classify you as a forum poster with alot of hot air, that likes to be heard and likes to make claims of "inside sources" yet cannot devulge those sources due to national security.
> 
> ...


Could we cut back on the personal stuff? Have you no shame?


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Can you quote your source and the percentage of customers that are not having problems versus the percentage that are having problems?


I am not having any issues with the HR20. I have been having it record numerous items. My channel tuning is no where near 6 seconds, more like 2. I've been watching, channel surfing, and recording all at once without any lockups.

I'm sure some people are having problems. As an earlier poster said, if everyone were having the list of issues the initial poster indicated there would be a mass exodus.

To the initial poster, is your area subject to regular power outages or power spikes. It only takes one serious power-related incident to make any type of microprocessor-based equipment exhibit flaky behavior ar random intervals after the event.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Well, I guess I'm part of the churn as well. Five RBRs in five days, one of which had to be done in the middle of the USC game, and I'm looking for another provider. Sometimes all the channels are black, sometimes the remote doesn't work, sometimes shows don't record. I hoped I could get another HR10 out of a dusty corner somewhere, but was told that there aren't even any more being sent out for refurbs.

Don't know how accurate that is, but I hope I can swing a deal with Dish or TWC. I told Direct today to shut it off before the bill cycles on the 28th, if not before should I find another provider. If none of that works....I'll just closet the HR20 again and fire up a Tivo.

The people at DirecTV who showed Tivo the door should be fired. As someone who works in television and just wants stable equipment that produces a good picture, I truly loathe those individuals on a professional basis.

Mike Nassour / Austin Texas


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## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

My 6 and 9 year olds work this thing to death I've got so many disney channel shows on here it's ridiculous. If they can't lock it up while fightin over the remote and recording every show I guess i got a good one.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

That is so cool! I just wish mine had been half that good. The leaves rustle outside here and it's RBR time!


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## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Ask for a new one. 5 resets a day is way too much.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Actually, it was five resets OVER five days, and yes that's still too much.

But the deal is....I'm tired. I just want to watch TV. I don't want to beta any more. 

Actually, I think we're closer to alpha here.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

gcisko said:


> The long delay is normal (a feature). So I suspect you did not fix it. Sorry.


Normally I get 2-3 second delays when changing channels. That seems normal, and doesn't bother me too much. However, the other day I was getting 6 second delays. That was very frustrating. Rebooting got me back to 2-3 seconds.


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## bnglbill (Nov 29, 2006)

Knon2000 said:


> I wonder sometimes about the froze systems that people report. How many of them can be attributed to a voltage spike? I would think that at least a few of them can be. I have UPS's on all my HR-20's, and I can verify that I have NEVER had a frozen system.
> So in my opinion, it possibly can fix problems, just not "software" problems. So, what can it hurt to use one? If anything, it would have prevented one of the problems the OP actually reported, when he said he had a power outage.


I am one who has had very little problems and I do use a UPS and have from the beginning. That being said, you would think that if their boxes are that sensitive to minor power fluctuation, you would think that they would have uncovered that during testing and built in some kind of power conditioning.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Very few consumer grade devices do that very well. No one wants to spend the money (hurts their profits). I don't think the HR20 is any better or worse than most devices. That being said, any DVR (or expensive TV with a lamp) should have a UPS on it. (You get both surge protection and backup lamp fan operation with the UPS)


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Knon2000 said:


> Churn is referring to the people that are leaving DTV, some are voluntary, such as people that are throughly fed up with the service, and are terminating their service. Involuntary are people that are simply not paying their bill. There are people that are leaving due to other factors such as relocating to residences without access to D* and such, however, I would think that right now, upset customers are probably the largest part of the Churn that is being discussed above.


thx!! if you want to see chum, look at the wireless phone buisness....


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

hasan said:


> Could we cut back on the personal stuff? Have you no shame?


hasan, you are on point as usual....


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## solo1026 (Mar 21, 2006)

bnglbill said:


> I am one who has had very little problems and I do use a UPS and have from the beginning. That being said, you would think that if their boxes are that sensitive to minor power fluctuation, you would think that they would have uncovered that during testing and built in some kind of power conditioning.


I have an UPS too and having the same problems 
Man! I had to RBR today again 
I recorded 6 shows last night and guess what? All of them come up with Delete yes or no  

I just don't know what to do anymore:shrug:

NOT ONE PROBLEM WITH MY 3 TIVOS


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Not owning a HR20 I can't comment, but I do own a HR10 and an R10. Before the 6.3a upgrade, I had zero reboots or freezes (that I could identify) in the couple of years I owned each. I'm sure I experienced a missed recording or two (I know there was some bad guide data that caused a couple, and unintentional conflicts that were my fault), but both boxes do what I want to do often enough that I can largely just "set it and forget it". Even with 6.3a I mainly experienced the 10-second audio dropouts, but only on Fox HD via my OTA antenna. Then a couple of weeks ago I experienced a rash (5 over 2 weeks) reboots, but nothing for 6 days since then. So, two weeks of instability preceded by 2 years of stability is pretty good. Oh, and before that I had a GXCEBOT (DirecTivo) and it was nearly perfect for almost 4 years before the hard drive started to go (it was replaced with the R10).

I'm certain there were many people with Tivo box related issues, but it hasn't been as bad as the HR20 for quite some time. Simply put, the bar has been raised. It's not OK for DirecTV to release a box that's "as buggy" (or worse) than the HR10 was in 2004. They need to release a box that's every bit as reliable and responsive as the previous generations with as many or more features. The HR20 isn't there, on the first part yet, but it's close on the second part.

As much as I like HD, there's no chance I'll "upgrade" to the HR20 in the state it's in now. I'm not worried about DLB, MRV, HMO, interactive channels or any other advanced features. Until the bug reports on the forums are more sporadic (i.e. not followed up by hundreds saying "me too") and the stability-related software upgrades slow to a trickle (and not because DirecTV is simply abandoning the box), I'm staying with my HR10. At least it's the "devil I know" 

The truth is, D* knows they've got a problem on their hands, which is why the 13 software upgrades. The frequency of upgrades gives me hope they'll fix things in the next 3-6 months. I just hope that Earl isn't beginning to sound like Thomas Friedman on Iraq (i.e. "I predict the next x months are crucial"... then you wait x months and they say "It's the next y months that are really crucial", rinse, repeat)

There are choices, however imperfect (DishNetwork, Comcast with Moto/SciAm, Series 3) and I'll be looking long and hard at them if the HR20 continues to be problematic for so many.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

hasan said:


> Could we cut back on the personal stuff? Have you no shame?


That's OK Hasan...he's attacked before.

If there's a choice between sharing some inside info without jeopardizing someone's job (which is the most important thing), and perhaps not sharing it at all because 1 certain poster here has a problem with it, I'd rather err on the side of sharing the info (with respect for my contacts' wishes of confidentiality).

Earl has done that as well from time to time, and we respect him alot for that approach too. 

I get plenty of good information here from others too -- Earl, Chris and you (Hasan), for example, but I don't believe we need to start the Spanish Inquisition every time someone shares something from an insider. There's just too much risk to disclose too much detail sometimes.

If the Wolfmeister wants to disregard the info, he is certainly most welcome to do so. That's what the ignore list is for.

To your point - It would be *nice* if everyone could keep things a bit civil. To each his own.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's OK Hasan...he's attacked before.
> 
> If there's a choice between sharing some inside info without jeopardizing someone's job (which is the most important thing), and perhaps not sharing it at all because 1 certain poster here has a problem with it, I'd rather err on the side of sharing the info (with respect for my contacts' wishes of confidentiality).
> 
> ...


If you want to drop it, why don't you? I have.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> If you want to drop it, why don't you? I have.


I already have first.


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

I wanted to get HD. I had Directv and reviewed it vs Comcast and Dish. I also looked at the available (and soon to be) hardware. Having had such good luck with our SAT60 I wanted to go Tivo. 

The deciding factor was that my wife had to have PPV capability which the Series 3 HD Tivo doesn't support (cable cards don't support this yet). 

We've had the same PPV problems with our HR20. We now don't use PPV. :nono2:


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> Let me start by saying that I've been a loyal DirecTV customer for 4 years. The earlier DirecTivo units were great, and the picture quality was wonderful. However, the HR20 is driving me nuts. I'm afraid it's time for me to leave DirecTV.


Good Bye :hurah:


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

Blitz68 said:


> The HR20 is awesome. I will take it off your hands


WOW, We can sub-lease it!

Yipppppeeeee!

ROFL!


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Blitz68 said:


> Good Bye :hurah:


With no disrespect intended, wrong answer, Blitz.

I know that no one wants this box to work more than the folks at DirecTV, _especially_ the folks who created and market it! But the fact that is performing so poorly in so many (yes, not all) cases means that the one device on which D* has pinned its future performance is, well, underperforming. And simply telling people 'buh-bye" is not in the long-term interest of either DirecTV or those customers. When I had my extended conversation with various D* folks today, I could hear in their voices the frustration with the situation. Gone were the claims of "oh, I've never heard of that problem". When I mentioned to the retention specialist that the only way D* could keep me as a customer at this point was to ship me one of those refurb HR10s, she said "sir, if I had one of those boxes on my desk, I'd ship it to you right now!"

Well, after some continued investigation today, it turns out that there's no way either E* or TWC can match what I'm getting from DirecTV, even without the HR20. To get into two HD DVRs from E* is almost $700 up front plus commitment and Time Warner's video quality is simply (as expected) unacceptable.

The sad end of this story (for the moment) is that I and many other folks have purchased, for serious money in some cases, a box that is simply not usable. I'll probably (once again) wind up dragging my old Samsung Tivo down from the closet and simply drop HD programming on one monitor. Given the sad state of D*'s HD offerings, I'll probably drop the HD package and just record off air on my trusty H10.

I lose programming and functionality, and D* loses money from me. This software fiasco (which seemed to be at one time to be almost over with the 0x10 release) has, and continues, to cost D* money, goodwill, and it's hard-earned reputation as the leader in stable satellite television.


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## solo1026 (Mar 21, 2006)

mnassour said:


> With no disrespect intended, wrong answer, Blitz.
> 
> I know that no one wants this box to work more than the folks at DirecTV, _especially_ the folks who created and market it! But the fact that is performing so poorly in so many (yes, not all) cases means that the one device on which D* has pinned its future performance is, well, underperforming. And simply telling people 'buh-bye" is not in the long-term interest of either DirecTV or those customers. When I had my extended conversation with various D* folks today, I could hear in their voices the frustration with the situation. Gone were the claims of "oh, I've never heard of that problem". When I mentioned to the retention specialist that the only way D* could keep me as a customer at this point was to ship me one of those refurb HR10s, she said "sir, if I had one of those boxes on my desk, I'd ship it to you right now!"
> 
> ...


I agree with you I just had a talk with DTV CS and they told me it was all do to the software:lol: I said to her "you don't say" She said they are working on a software fix but couldn't tell me when we could download it:lol: The same old thing! It is getting OLD:box:


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

In most cases you are better off coming here with questions about updates and bugs than going to a CSR. Earl and others have their ear to the ground and we seem to get word on things not only before the CSRs do, but more accurately.

Obviously, box replacement requires the CSR, but determining if you need a replacement can be better answered here.


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## wolfgpd (Sep 7, 2006)

> Originally Posted by jbrasure View Post
> 2) When I pause live TV and press play again, it won't start playback. I have to switch channels to fix it. This causes everything in the buffer to get thrown out. I had to restart to fix this.


Same thing keeps happening to me too. its easy to duplicate. You pause tv and then it wont unpause. You have to change channels to get it to work again and as said before you lose the buffer. ITs annoying.


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## mrshermanoaks (Aug 27, 2006)

wolfgpd said:


> Same thing keeps happening to me too. its easy to duplicate. You pause tv and then it wont unpause. You have to change channels to get it to work again and as said before you lose the buffer. ITs annoying.


I've posted about this bug several times and it drives me absolutely nuts. My wife is about ready to cancel DTV and send this box back... I'm reluctant after having DTV since its initial launch and knowing that all the other HD DVR options have their own problems. But how can I argue with her? I used to be a beta tester for ReplayTV and even then we didn't have so many problems.

And so I have to ask: what the f*ck are they doing implementing music and picture sharing when so many people are having trouble with functions so basic like pause? OTA I can understand, there were a lot of people screaming for that. But seriously - in about 2 more weeks we'll be ex-customers.

And as someone who was previously in the "overall happy" camp I can say: You're only happy with the HR20 until things start going wrong. If they haven't gone wrong yet, then count yourself lucky and be a little less smug.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

mnassour said:


> With no disrespect intended, wrong answer, Blitz.
> 
> I know that no one wants this box to work more than the folks at DirecTV, _especially_ the folks who created and market it! But the fact that is performing so poorly in so many (yes, not all) cases means that the one device on which D* has pinned its future performance is, well, underperforming. --snip--


mnassour,
How did you make the determination that "most" of the units are having problems? If you are basing the assumption on the postings on dbstalk, that is not nearly enough of a sampling to be statistically accurate. It is a common error made as a result of the fact that people who are having problems with something are significantly more likely to post negative comments to vent their frustrations while the people who are happy are much less likely to bother to post their experiences.

That said... Certainly there are enough units having problems that D* needs to address the issues. We just don't have enough info to say it's "most" of the units. If that were true, any large corporation like D* would take the product off the market while the issues get resolved.

Some things I'd suggest people look at when they are having problems:

1.) what is the unit's temperature when you are having the issues? High temps can cause flakiness in this type of equipment. Is your HR20 in a cabinet? Is it on a shelf above an amplifier (they tend to generate a lot of heat...)

2.) It is possible that, if you've had one significant overheat, the unit may exhibit flaky behavior from then on as there could be damaged caused by the overheat.

3.) you could have a defective unit. There are enough people posting that they are having positive experiences that there just may be some units with bad circuitry out there.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

brittonx said:


> mnassour,
> How did you make the determination that "most" of the units are having problems? If you are basing the assumption on the postings on dbstalk, that is not nearly enough of a sampling to be statistically accurate. It is a common error made as a result of the fact that people who are having problems with something are significantly more likely to post negative comments to vent their frustrations while the people who are happy are much less likely to bother to post their experiences.
> 
> That said... Certainly there are enough units having problems that D* needs to address the issues. We just don't have enough info to say it's "most" of the units. If that were true, any large corporation like D* would take the product off the market while the issues get resolved.
> ...


Good points all. But let's face it...when "most" of us here use the word "most" we mean only one thing.....OUR unit. Yes, I'm completely aware that there are probably a lot of happy users out there not posting here either because 1) their units are fine (yea, sure), or 2) they don't know the forum exists or 3) they don't recognize their unit has a problem.

As to the heat issue with mine, I don't think that's the deal. It's on an open shelf with at least two inches of space on the sides, top and back. If it can't work in that environment, then it has even MORE problems that we recognize here! 

I was indeed offered another unit by D*. The issue is, though, I saw no issues with the 08 download, all my worries started with this latest, national, release.

But software aside, each of us must ask ourselves if this box is more trouble than it's worth. For me, the answer is yes....and it's going either 1) back on the shelf or 2) back to D* in exchange for a release from commitment. After all, it doesn't matter if ten million folks have great units and I've got the only bad one. When you get right down to it, the ONLY unit that matters is the one in OUR home....the home of each person on this board and the home of each HR20 user.

Today was the first day in a week mine hasn't needed a RBR. I've decided not to do another. Next time the old SD Tivo comes out of the closet and I pay D* less money each month.



"solo1026" said:


> I agree with you I just had a talk with DTV CS and they told me it was all do to the software I said to her "you don't say" She said they are working on a software fix but couldn't tell me when we could download it The same old thing! It is getting OLD


Yes, I'm getting to the point where I really feel for the D* CSRs. Obviously, the vast majority of them have less knowledge than do the folks here, yet they're getting bombarded with questions, complaints, etc., about this box. If any of them are reading this, let me tell them I respect them for what they know and how hard they are trying. But they, like we, have been messed around with by D* on this box and I'm sure they're as tired as are we.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

mnassour,

I really appreciate your thoughtful reply to my comments. Too often on forums like this people like me who post opinions looking at things from other angles get blasted. It was refreshing to read your reply.

Thank you & I hope you get things worked out with your HR20.
--brittonx


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

mnassour said:


> Yes, I'm getting to the point where I really feel for the D* CSRs. Obviously, the vast majority of them have less knowledge than do the folks here, yet they're getting bombarded with questions, complaints, etc., about this box. If any of them are reading this, let me tell them I respect them for what they know and how hard they are trying. But they, like we, have been messed around with by D* on this box and I'm sure they're as tired as are we.


The difference between "them" & us... they are getting paid & we are paying.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If that were true, you'd be right. fact is, a minority of users have these problems, which is why there isn't a mass exodus.


A rwo year contrack is why there isn't a mass exodus. (Also, the fact that many cable companies are worse, but that shouldn't be a bar to shoot for.)


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

I'm thinking of heading out the door as well, but in my case, I've been with D* since 1994. Back when you paid D* AND USSB for programming. I absolutely love the DirecTiVos, because they simply work! There is no need for a reset button, so I have all four of them in an unaccessible closet. However, with the HR20, I had to put it within easy reach so that I can hit the red button every other day! It doesn't record shows; it doesn't respond over half the time to remote button presses; it locks up; ...

D* has deluded themselves into thinking that THEY can build a DVR! The box sure is pretty. Unfortunately, what's inside the box fails in too many ways! It's a turd with circuits. And it is ABSOLUTELY *THE* worst CE product I have EVER owned! Whenever I use my trusty old DSR6000's, it's like a breath of fresh air! They work perfectly in almost every way! Unfortunately, I am hooked on HD and the DSR6000's will eventually have to be replaced for that reason. However, I will NOT replace them until (IF?!) (1) the HR20 ever becomes stable enough to trust, or more likely (2) I leave D*! 

For the first time in almost 13 years, I am fully ready to leave D*. I will NOT contemplate DISH because they are even worse. But D* now has some formidable competition from cable and soon, FiOS. However, the elimination of TiVo as a choice is the ONE thing that WILL get me out the door! Say what you want about TiVo's "tired and cute" interface. I've heard it already. Sure .. there are about four functions that I do like about the HR20. ALL of them involve being able to see my Now Playing list, the ToDo List, and other functions without leaving the recording or live TV. However, the HR20 fails miserably in what I expect of a DVR! I remember the early days of the first TiVo standalone, and the early days of the DirecTiVo. Sure, there were a few glitches. But they were NOTHING compared to this POS which I have had since August and shows very little signs of improvement! A few things have been fixed, others haven't. And with each glitch that is fixed or at least improved, they usually add another near-fatal glitch! NO. It shows NO signs of improving to where I can see ANY hope for the HR20. And based upon the reports of the old R15, I don't anticipate that they will ever get THIS box right either!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NFLnut said:


> I will NOT contemplate DISH because they are even worse. But D* now has some formidable competition from cable and soon, FiOS.


DirecTV's subscribers are clearly sucking hind teat at the moment. I don't think many would dispute that (aside from those with analog cable or hard core DirecTV apologists). I'm not sure why you would summarily rule out Dish Network. Model for model, their DVRs seem to be more stable and they have much more HD programming and similar or better PQ. Dish obviously lacks NFL Sunday Ticket, but so do all of your other alternatives.

It will be interesting to see if FIOS sticks with QAM in an effort to be TiVO compatible. QAM is hurting them badly. Unlike satellite, what you can get with cable may be very limited.

The forward looking part of me is keenly interested in what U-verse offers. There are many questions to be answered about receivers and pricing, but it has all of the promise that FIOS once _had_.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

NFLnut said:


> D* has deluded themselves into thinking that THEY can build a DVR! The box sure is pretty. Unfortunately, what's inside the box fails in too many ways! It's a turd with circuits.


Agreed. Perhaps this, in part, is why former owner Rupert Murdoch reportedly referred to D* as a "turd bird"!

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6411134.html


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

harsh said:


> DirecTV's subscribers are clearly sucking hind teat at the moment. I don't think many would dispute that (aside from those with analog cable or hard core DirecTV apologists).


I'll dispute this statement simply because you did not qualify it by saying HR20 DirecTV subscribers. Are DirecTV subscribers without the HR20 in such dire straights? Either way, count me a satisfied DirecTV customer and I have two HR20s.


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> Agreed. Perhaps this, in part, is why former owner Rupert Murdoch reportedly referred to D* as a "turd bird"!
> 
> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6411134.html


Except that it is HIS company that is making this DVR! I assume that you knew that, and this was a joke?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

NFLnut said:


> Except that it is HIS company that is making this DVR! I assume that you knew that, and this was a joke?


Actually "his" company only makes the R15.
The HR20 is not made by NDS


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

brott said:


> I'll dispute this statement simply because you did not qualify it by saying HR20 DirecTV subscribers.


Letting slide the fact that this thread is uniquely about the HR20 and posted under the HR20 forum, I'm not sure I feel compelled to limit my assertions to the HR20.

Surely, there are _millions_ of relatively happy DirecTV customers who don't long for new technology and new programming. For those who do and have changed to the new DirecTV receivers for interactive features, HD LIL or HD national content, things are less rosy. Any time people can put together a cogent argument for leaving DirecTV for a player to be named later, you know there is trouble.


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## SFNSXguy (Apr 17, 2006)

My HR10-250 (Weaknees 2x400gig) is two years old. My HR20-700 is six weeks old. Both have given me only minor problems. In the last week I've had to reboot both. In the scope of things I've missed more recordings on the HR10 (maybe 6 or so) than the HR20.
It's clear to me from what I read on this site that the HR20 problems are caused by bringing a product to market way before it was ready. Too many companies see dollar signs and toss a product out there too soon. Part of it is a mindset that says "we'll fix it as we go along and no one will notice" -- but from my point of view it's the old auto racing saw: "there's never enough time or money to do it right, but always enough time and money to do it over."

Sad. I thought DirecTV was a better company.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Well, let's keep our fingers crossed that they'll continue to work on the HR20 _until they have it working properly_, and not drop the ball. Thus far, they've shown that they're at least making the effort.


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## dsm (Jul 11, 2004)

Sorry to hear about the OP's experience. I'm happy with my hr20 in spite of the occasional problem (2 RBRs in 2 months, maybe 5 lost recordings, lots of nuisance issues). 

Someone mentioned using a UPS. It's at least possible that some of these HR20's are sensitive to low/high voltages, but I agree with most of the folks here that these really seem like software problems. The power in our house is really a mess, but I'm not using a UPS and my HR20 doesn't seem to care. If you do get one, I wanted to suggest you get one with Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR). Most of the retailers who carry the APC brands in-store don't carry the RS versions that have AVR for both high and low voltages so look carefully. 

Next paragraph is a hypothesis so please don't ask me for a source .

I think the software just gets hung up frequently by mishandling the datastream. So I contend that anything you can do to improve your signal with this puppy will improve your chances of not hitting a bug. If a sat is partially obstructed try to fix it. If you have a weak OTA signal improve your antenna or avoid tuning to it. Get those signal strengths as high as you can with no fluctuations until they work out the bugs.

-steve


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

I run all my HT gear on a UPS. The HR20 is still a POS, even with clean power.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Bizarroterl said:


> I run all my HT gear on a UPS. The HR20 is still a POS, even with clean power.


The only way to make an HR20 truly bug free is to unplug it.


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> The only way to make an HR20 truly bug free is to unplug it.


Boy, isn't THAT the truth! I'm just trying to FF/REW through live TV. Any button press (FF/REW/IR/:30 skip) causes the screen to lock up for 3-5 seconds; FF/REW is so jumpy (nonlinear) that it is impossible to find THE spot you want to stop at (see my thread regarding this problem); FF/REW cause lip sync issues; you have to change channels just to make certian that you are back up to Live; FF/REW often causes freezes and stuttering that can only be solved by changing channels and then changing back again; you can never actually be certain that you are back up to live, ...

Add to that the unreliability of recording, and the fact that you MUST have a primary DTiVo just to be certain that you don't miss any crucial recordings, and the "Unplug theory" is fairly accurate!


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## paja (Oct 23, 2006)

harsh said:


> Letting slide the fact that this thread is uniquely about the HR20 and posted under the HR20 forum, I'm not sure I feel compelled to limit my assertions to the HR20.
> 
> Surely, there are _millions_ of relatively happy DirecTV customers who don't long for new technology and new programming. For those who do and have changed to the new DirecTV receivers for interactive features, HD LIL or HD national content, things are less rosy. Any time people can put together a cogent argument for leaving DirecTV for a player to be named later, you know there is trouble.


I recently left DIRECT and went to DISH. Couldn't be happier. After being jerked around trying to get upgraded, I went to DISH and got their HD service with DVR. So far it has worked flawlessly.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2007)

paja said:


> I recently left DIRECT and went to DISH. Couldn't be happier.


Will you still be happy when DirecTV has 100 HD channels and you are getting the majority of them in SD?

I experienced many of the problems listed in this forum after I got my HR20 back in December, but it seems pretty stable now. I haven't had a lockup or missed recording since the last update a couple of weeks ago. And I haven't had to do any resets, either.


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## jerkieman (Oct 20, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> Will you still be happy when DirecTV has 100 HD channels and you are getting the majority of them in SD?
> 
> I experienced many of the problems listed in this forum after I got my HR20 back in December, but it seems pretty stable now. I haven't had a lockup or missed recording since the last update a couple of weeks ago. And I haven't had to do any resets, either.


They have been promising 150+ channels of HD for the last 2 years, I'll believe it when I see it.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

jerkieman said:


> They have been promising 150+ channels of HD for the last 2 years, I'll believe it when I see it.


I'll believe it when I see it and when I have a reliable DVR to record them. Otherwise it's a waste of $$$ on DTVs part.


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## robncindi (Jan 8, 2007)

Looks like D* had better get the customer retention department working some overtime. After a month of HR20 problems we are starting to think about swithing to dish or cable....We have been with D* since 97 and never thought about changing until the HR20 came into the house last month.....sad....


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## Buddy (Aug 16, 2004)

After having my HR20 for about a month I want to walk away from D* too. This box is braindead. Features that TiVo had three years ago are either non-existent or poorly implemented in the HR20. Here's a short list of the major deficiencies:

*No Dual Live Buffer * - unbelievable
*30 Second slip *- is this a joke?
*3 Seconds to enable slowmotion play (actaully everything takes 3 seconds with this damn thing)* - So I have to know three seconds before the thing I want to slo-mo happens, nice thinking here guys.
*No Dual Live Buffer* - REALLY unbelievable
*None of the expansion was enabled *- there are eSATA (which now works after downloading the latest software update but is still braindead because it's only as a replacement of the internal storage device and not supplemental space), Ethernet, and USB ports, none of which where enabled when the unit shipped.
*The guide button that doesn't show the Guide*
*The gargantuan timer bar that stays on for what seems like forever blocking the lower third of the screen.*
*The fact that it can't smoothly fast forward MPEG4 content*
*No Fast Forward autocorrect*

This this is just a special purpose PC why doesn't it support a keyboard?

I've owned 5 TiVos, 2 ReplayTVs (with the awesome networking), and an UltimateTV and the HR20 is the worst of all of them. I haven't even talked about the stability problems or functions that just don't work. If D* thinks they can just throw this POC at us and expect to keep longtime paying customers, they are mistaken.

      

EDIT:
I was a very happy customer until they sold me this piece of garbage.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> Will you still be happy when DirecTV has 100 HD channels and you are getting the majority of them in SD?


Certainly not everybody will agree with me, but I would rather have 15 HD channels and a reliable DVR, than 100 HD channels and a POS DVR.


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## taylorhively (Nov 29, 2006)

As a former TiVo (as well as ReplayTV for that matter) employee and owner of almost all TiVo products. I personally like the HR20 in more in almost all ways (than my TiVos.)

I have only 1 issue and 1 complaint:
Every 2 weeks or so I have to reset one of my two HR20s. One of the two tuners gets "Stuck" showing nothing but black. It appears to still be recording successfully, but can't display any channels.

My complaint:
After a reset, the box must completely re-download all channel guide data. So before I reset it I have to make sure to set up any future recordings or I have to wait about 24 hours before it has re-downloaded future data.
This is really irritating. Why is it so hard to store this on the hard disk for this very purpose?
I wish the channel guide could fill the whole screen (instead of just the bottom half) so I could see more channels at once.

But I have nothing but praise for the HR20. I was personally relieved that the HR20 was is as damn good of a product as it is. I was dreading having to leave TiVos to switch to a far inferior DVR. But this box does everything I want it to.

A little more stability and I'll be happy. And I'm keeping my eye on hard drive prices. As soon as I can get a 600GB or more for a decent price I'll be boosting my storage.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

jbrasure said:


> Certainly not everybody will agree with me, but I would rather have 15 HD channels and a reliable DVR, than 100 HD channels and a POS DVR.


Fully agree with you. It's sad really. I've been a D* customer since 1994 during the test market days and a vocal proponent with everyone I know, personally and professionally.

D* now seems like a longtime friend with a personal problem. Do I abandon the friend and find another, or stick around and offer some tough love?

D* has gambled by dumping TiVo, a stable environment, and introducing its own DVR, at a critical time in the market place, as customers become more familiar with the benefits of HDTV. Will the HR20 eventually be seen as a stain on D*'s reputation, or a jewel? Time will tell. I'd like to look beyond the HR20 and lobby for an HR25, one that actually can record and play back television, with whatever software is needed to fulfill that primary mission correctly.


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## Buddy (Aug 16, 2004)

taylorhively said:


> As a former TiVo (as well as ReplayTV for that matter) employee and owner of almost all TiVo products. I personally like the HR20 in more in almost all ways (than my TiVos.)
> 
> I have only 1 issue and 1 complaint:
> Every 2 weeks or so I have to reset one of my two HR20s. One of the two tuners gets "Stuck" showing nothing but black. It appears to still be recording successfully, but can't display any channels.
> ...


I'm curious, not including access to HD content, name something that the HR20 does better than a TiVo. There isn't one feature on the HR20 that is better than that of a TiVo nor does the HR20 have a significant feature that the TiVo doesn't have.

I just have a hard time believing that anyone that has used a TiVo for any length of time could possibly think that the HR20 is anyting but a poorly implemented imitation of a great product. I'm not saying that people can't think it's a satisfatory product on it's own but to compare it to TiVo is ridiculous IMO.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Buddy said:


> I'm curious, not including access to HD content, name something that the HR20 does better than a TiVo. There isn't one feature on the HR20 that is better than that of a TiVo nor does the HR20 have a significant feature that the TiVo doesn't have.
> 
> I just have a hard time believing that anyone that has used a TiVo for any length of time could possibly think that the HR20 is anyting but a poorly implemented imitation of a great product. I'm not saying that people can't think it's a satisfatory product on it's own but to compare it to TiVo is ridiculous IMO.


1) Faster
2) Handles dispute resolutions better.
3) Allows watching television while in guide.
4) Has external expandable storage.

There are many more. Claiming there is nothing about the HR20 improved over most TiVos is not being fair and puts your subjectivity into question.


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## chicagojim (Sep 13, 2006)

I.M. Nobody said:


> I have felt like you more than once but hang in there it does get better. Note ! I put a UPS in front of the box and a lot of the problems went away. Hope you have a good New Year.


I also did this, and although it isn't perfect, the box started to behave much better. My voltave is swinging from 116 to 125 volts input to the UPS. While this is still an acceptable range, I have a feeling that the HR-20 is very susceptable to power issues. Moreso than other electronics.

Give it a shot. A decent line conditioning UPS can be had for less than $150. If it doesn't fix the issue, you can definitely use it elsewhere.

I still have audio issues and an occasional freeze (once every week or two) but most problems were fixed with clean power.

Good luck!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Buddy said:


> *30 Second slip *- is this a joke?


Many people like the slip. In fact after it was vastly improved back in October or so I really haven't seem many complaints about it anymore.



> *None of the expansion was enabled *- there are eSATA (which now works after downloading the latest software update but is still braindead because it's only as a replacement of the internal storage device and not supplemental space), Ethernet, and USB ports, none of which where enabled when the unit shipped.


Actually the eSATA port has been active since very early on, mid Sept.
Ethernet has been active for a couple months now, streaming music and pics, videos soon.
USB was also just activate in the lastest CE test release.



> *The guide button that doesn't show the Guide*


You can now do just a one button push with the lastest CE release. Should be in the next national release.



> *The gargantuan timer bar that stays on for what seems like forever blocking the lower third of the screen.*


I haven't noticed it on screen any longer then any of my DirecTivo's. Hit play to make it go away.



> *The fact that it can't smoothly fast forward MPEG4 content*


Seems fine to me. I can easily tell when the commercial is over. What more do you want?



> *No Fast Forward autocorrect*


Tivo patent. Just hit the replay/jump back button instead of play. Works better for me then the Tivo autocorrect which after 7 years still drives me nuts.



> I'm curious, not including access to HD content, name something that the HR20 does better than a TiVo. There isn't one feature on the HR20 that is better than that of a TiVo nor does the HR20 have a significant feature that the TiVo doesn't have.
> 
> I just have a hard time believing that anyone that has used a TiVo for any length of time could possibly think that the HR20 is anyting but a poorly implemented imitation of a great product. I'm not saying that people can't think it's a satisfatory product on it's own but to compare it to TiVo is ridiculous IMO.


Have been using Tivo since 2000, 7 years now. The HR20 is a breath of fresh air to me.
1) Fast
2) Program still plays in all menus and during recordings
3) Better conflict resolution, smart enough to not take up two tuners for overlapping recordings on the same channel
4) MPEG4 HD
5) Interactive Sunday Ticket
6) Fast
7) One button record
8) Can add storage by just plugging it in the back
9) Mini one line guide
10) Did I say fast?

But then I went into the HR20 with an open mind, not closed that Tivo was the end all be all of DVR interfaces. The UI may not be for everyone but if you go in with a closed mind then it's not suprising you don't like it. Good luck!


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## oldschoolecw (Jan 25, 2007)

jbrasure said:


> Certainly not everybody will agree with me, but I would rather have 15 HD channels and a reliable DVR, than 100 HD channels and a POS DVR.


Agreed


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## nick1817 (Feb 12, 2007)

Scheduling Conflict resolution is 100 times easier on the HR-20, as is scheduling as a whole, when compared to a Tivo box.


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## Buddy (Aug 16, 2004)

marksman said:


> 1) Faster *NOT*
> 2) Handles dispute resolutions better. *Subjective*
> 3) Allows watching television while in guide. *Yawn*
> 4) Has external expandable storage. *the implementation is braindead especially considering that my TiVo can use two HDs together.*
> There are many more. Claiming there is nothing about the HR20 improved over most TiVos is not being fair and puts your subjectivity into question.


So far you've given very little in the way of improvements and I've given VERY real and VERY much needed functions so it's not my subjectivity that is in question.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Buddy...

At the core of your argument is what you consider to be better. And that by definition, is subjective.

The "faster" argument... depends on what area of the DVR you are looking at. Setting up Series Links, changing the priorities, ect... the HR20 is clearly faster. Scrolling through the guide, and "fluid" trickplay... TiVo is better.

Handles disputes better? How is that subjective? The HR20 flat out gives you the same option as the TiVo (cancel a recording), but at least the HR20 gives you the choice of which of the two... while the TiVo just picks the first one.

So you don't like Picture in the guide... subjective

Brian dead on external solution? How about extremely easy for a non-tech to understand. They order an eSATA solution, and they plug it in... No opening the unit, no MFSTools or Instake... no paying a premium for a pre-built drive.

As for the dual drive in the DTivos, other then the original Series 1's, you need to purchase a bracket to support it. So even if you are willing to open the case...$350 for a 750gb, install it (no PC necessary)... you are your way. What is the cost for the similar steps on a TiVo ? (aka pre-configured drive).

How about Interactive support?
How about MPEG-4 Support?
How about Caller-ID?
How about inline overlapping (aka, you can pad the end and start of back-to-back programs on one channel, and it NOT cause a conflict)
How about network support, native to the box. No additional hardware needed for a wired connection (assuming you have a router).
How about all outputs functioning at the same time
How about Dish Space indicator
How about Quick Delete and bulk delete
How about single line guide
How about the 90 minute buffer
So if you find none of those as being better? That is your subjective opinion

So short of:

DLB
Moderate / Advanced Wishlists
Suggestions

What can't be done on an HR20, that can be done on a DTivo ?


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

How about recording sporting events from the sports packages (like NHL Center Ice)? There seems to be some problems with this too.


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## Steve Robertson (Jun 7, 2005)

Earl,

I ahven't gooten the box yet but I like some of the features you mentioned and can't wait to use them


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2007)

jbrasure said:


> Certainly not everybody will agree with me, but I would rather have 15 HD channels and a reliable DVR, than 100 HD channels and a POS DVR.


Then you should be happy if you switch providers. You'll be happy with your 15 HD channels and I'll be happy with my 100 HD channels.

As to the DVR being a POS, that's a matter of opinion. I've had many of the problems listed in this forum, but most of them have cleared up recently. I haven't had any missed recordings or lockups for at least the past 2 weeks, which indicates DTV is making strides in correcting these problems. I only care about the problems I have going forward, not the problems I had in the past.


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## darklight (Feb 7, 2007)

I'm coming in from a SciAtl Explorer 8300HD(and 8000HD) and lemme tell ya, the HR-20 is superior in every way but stability, and D* seems to be working on that. 

Yeah, I had a Tivo S2 once and I enjoyed it. I do wish some of that functionality was in the HR-20, or at least the UI, but believe me it could be much worse.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2007)

Buddy said:


> The gargantuan timer bar that stays on for what seems like forever blocking the lower third of the screen.


A gross exaggeration. If you measure the timer bar, you will see that it takes up 16% of the screen, not a third. If you want it to go away, just press the exit button and it will disappear. Not as big a deal as you're making it out to be.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2007)

jerkieman said:


> They have been promising 150+ channels of HD for the last 2 years, I'll believe it when I see it.


DTV's timetable for adding HD channels is well known and is based on new satellites being launched. They are promising to have the *capacity *for 150 HD channels, which is not the same as promising 150 channels this year. Unless there is another launch failure, which is beyond DTV's control, they should have quite a few new HD channels later this year. If you don't believe it, then why don't you go ahead and switch to another service provider? Then you can whine about the lack of HD content while I'm enjoying all those new HD channels.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> How about Interactive support?
> How about MPEG-4 Support?
> How about Caller-ID?
> How about inline overlapping (aka, you can pad the end and start of back-to-back programs on one channel, and it NOT cause a conflict)
> ...


I'd also add native mode support. That, plus all outputs active simultaneously, was what got me to move from the HR10.

For what's missing, I'd also add "hackability" (which wasn't of course officially supported by Tivo, but was a big plus for some people).

Me, I do miss dual buffers and the richer wishlist functionality of Tivo (esp. being able to run all my "saved searches" at once to check for programming of interest).

My biggest problems with the HR20 have not been in its design but its failure to execute the record/playback functions reliably enough. This has improved greatly with the recent software versions, though. If that holds long enough for me to start trusting the unit, I'm happy enough with the HR20.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

bwaldron said:


> My biggest problems with the HR20 have not been in its design but its failure to execute the record/playback functions reliably enough. This has improved greatly with the recent software versions, though. If that holds long enough for me to start trusting the unit, I'm happy enough with the HR20.


So we've switched places then, as after 1 week of flawless recording/playback, our unit is back to missing/unwatchable recordings :nono2: .

My trust in the unit was short-lived.

But hey, I hear they're working on it!


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Marcia_Brady said:


> So we've switched places then, as after 1 week of flawless recording/playback, our unit is back to missing/unwatchable recordings :nono2: .
> 
> My trust in the unit was short-lived.
> 
> But hey, I hear they're working on it!


Oops, sorry 

I don't trust the HR20 yet...I am still nervous each time I hit the play button. And, of course, going a week w/o a missed/unwatchable recording shouldn't be cause for celebration. But it's better than the previous performance.

Hopefully yours can get back to speed without ruining mine


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Steve Robertson said:


> Earl,
> 
> I aven't gooten the box yet but I like some of the features you mentioned and can't wait to use them


The features aren't the problem. The implementation of those features, plus core DVR features ARE the problem!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

rcoleman111 said:


> Then you should be happy if you switch providers. You'll be happy with your 15 HD channels and I'll be happy with my 100 HD channels.


Remember that this 100 channels of which you speak is probably 8-9 months away on the inside and it is just another assurance; much like that assurance last year that the HR20 was "rock solid".

Will the HR20 unconditionally do what it is configured to by the time that the channels start showing up?

Will they be able to get enough working hardware (receivers, multiswitches/FTM, antennas) into the stream so that everyone who wants it can get it?

Will the competition stand still waiting for DirecTV to leapfrog them?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

rcoleman111 said:


> If you don't believe it, then why don't you go ahead and switch to another service provider? Then you can whine about the lack of HD content while I'm enjoying all those new HD channels.


If they go to cable, they can come back as soon as they feel comfortable that D* has delivered on their promises. Not being bound to a 24 month commitment is a good thing when at least a third of it will be the same old same old.

DirecTV is well positioned to recover from a launch failure, but you have to schedule a launch long before it even has a chance to fail.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

harsh said:


> Will they be able to get enough working hardware (receivers, multiswitches/FTM, antennas) into the stream so that everyone who wants it can get it?


You forgot a reliable/dependable/competent installer network.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NFLnut said:


> The features aren't the problem. The implementation of those features, plus core DVR features ARE the problem!


As I've said before, you have to wonder who's running the show at DirecTV. It is apparent that engineering was no where near ready to let the HR20 out the door yet somebody put them into production and started selling them anyway. We call these people "marketroids".


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> You forgot a reliable/dependable/competent installer network.


I didn't forget it, I just didn't want to incur the wrath of the installers. I'm also keenly aware that a good portion of the complaints about installers are the unbelievably long installation waits.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2007)

harsh said:


> Remember that this 100 channels of which you speak is probably 8-9 months away on the inside and it is just another assurance; much like that assurance last year that the HR20 was "rock solid".


It's probably 8-9 months away, but it's likely to be a lot longer than that before the competition has 100 HD channels.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

harsh said:


> As I've said before, you have to wonder who's running the show at DirecTV. It is apparent that engineering was no where near ready to let the HR20 out the door yet somebody put them into production and started selling them anyway. We call these people "marketroids".


True enough! Reminds me of "New Coke". Sure, it didn't have fizz, but those cola technicians were feverishly working on the problem. The eventual fix was a return to the original Coke (even though the Coke forums were filled with apologists, telling everyone that new Coke was the flagship product and the company would never abandon it.) Eventually, new Coke disappeared, Classic Coke became the flagship product (though it wasn't the original formula, as sugar was replaced with corn syrup.)

Hence, TiVo is Classic Coke, reborn in the shape of an HR25, with mpeg4 as the corn syrup. !pepsi! !pepsi!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

dhaakenson said:


> Hence, TiVo is Classic Coke, reborn in the shape of an HR25, with mpeg4 as the corn syrup. !pepsi! !pepsi!


But aside from the logistics of going back to Tivo, that's not the end-all-be-all solution. I don't care who makes the DVR I use, I want it to work. I also do want many of the features that I've grown accustom to by using the previous DTV product.

Personally I don't care if the current/next DTV DVR is made by ACME and Wiley Coyote is it's spokes animal. I want it to do what it says it's suppose to do, I want it to give me things I've been getting (DLB, no limits on SLs or TDL or history, autorecords that actually work and so on) and I want it to give me the new things DTV is promising. I don't think those wants are out of line.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

rcoleman111 said:


> It's probably 8-9 months away, but it's likely to be a lot longer than that before the competition has 100 HD channels.


In theory, the limit is closer to 70-75 until DirecTV 11 goes into service.

Let's not forget that of the 14 channels that D* cited as examples, only six are currently live. D* has even less control over who starts casting in HD than they do on their own.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2007)

harsh said:


> In theory, the limit is closer to 70-75 until DirecTV 11 goes into service.
> 
> Let's not forget that of the 14 channels that D* cited as examples, only six are currently live. D* has even less control over who starts casting in HD than they do on their own.


It isn't surprising that someone who uses the name "harsh" would put a negative spin on every post.

There are a number of HD channels out there right now that DirecTV can add as soon as they have the capacity. Add a few more that are likely to go online this year and you have a fair number of channels that can be added to the current lineup. It's anybody's guess as to the actual number DirecTV will add this year, but it will be a lot more than is available now.


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

WOW! I'm going to make my decision based on heresay about a satellite that "may" be launched on time and that will "probably" have a successful launch and will "likely" pass testing. After that I'm "sure" D* will already have negotiated with a 100 different HD channel providers.  

Will these channels be super compressed like almost all the other channels?


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## jerkieman (Oct 20, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> DTV's timetable for adding HD channels is well known and is based on new satellites being launched. They are promising to have the *capacity *for 150 HD channels, which is not the same as promising 150 channels this year. Unless there is another launch failure, which is beyond DTV's control, they should have quite a few new HD channels later this year. If you don't believe it, then why don't you go ahead and switch to another service provider? Then you can whine about the lack of HD content while I'm enjoying all those new HD channels.


Trust me if DirecTV didn't have the NFL package I would of switched to cable along time ago.

Do you work in marketing ? I love how you talk about how great the next version of the product will be.


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

I think one of the Biggest problems with the HR20 is:
People are messing with it to much.
Like a kid that brakes the toys the first day they get them.

Hey looky here eddie what I can do with this >>:beatdeadhorse: and this>>:bonk1:


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## jerkieman (Oct 20, 2006)

BobV said:


> I think one of the Biggest problems with the HR20 is:
> People are messing with it to much.
> Like a kid that brakes the toys the first day they get them.
> 
> Hey looky here eddie what I can do with this >>:beatdeadhorse: and this>>:bonk1:


Messing with it how ? You mean by trying to make it record a program you want to record ??


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

jerkieman said:


> Messing with it how ? You mean by trying to make it record a program you want to record ??


I didn't understand the "messing with it" reference either.


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I didn't understand the "messing with it" reference either.


Sorry, I was trying to be a humorist.:whatdidid


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## miketothep (Jan 11, 2007)

The problem is DTV didn't mess with it enough before they sprung it on an unsuspecting customer base.

I'm pretty close to giving up my NFL package to switch to Comcast since I learned that Comcast is implementing Tivo. I think DTV has made a critical error in trying to become a hardware manufacturer.

I've had the HR20 for several months now and it's just not good. I don't see how anyone with an serious interest in technology could be happy with this thing. My parents would probably be OK with it, provided it actually worked most of the time (which to be fair, I suppose mine does), but it's just SOOO unpolished and buggy, and such a huge step down from the TIVO experience.

As a web-based software developer, I would be just plain embarrassed if this were how my flagship product performed.

And as for additional HD channels, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before there are HD tiers and additional charges as they've really become a nickel and dime operation. I've been with DTV for almost 10 years now, and unfortunately, I've watched the quality and service steadily decline, all while pricing and additional hidden fees and required contract extensions have increased.

Too bad, they used to be so great.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2007)

Bizarroterl said:


> WOW! I'm going to make my decision based on heresay about a satellite that "may" be launched on time and that will "probably" have a successful launch and will "likely" pass testing. After that I'm "sure" D* will already have negotiated with a 100 different HD channel providers.


Maybe you should speculate on possibility of the sun rising tomorrow. Or the likelihood that there will be a presidential election in 2008. The facts are well known - DirecTV has the satellites that will give them the capacity to add new HD channels and they have contracts with content providers for new HD channels. There really isn't any doubt that they will have a significant number of new HD channels in the near future, certainly before the competition.



Bizarroterl said:


> Will these channels be super compressed like almost all the other channels?


All MPEG video is compressed - that's the whole purpose of MPEG. The HD channels on DirecTV look great to me. If you don't think so, then why don't you take your business elsewhere? Is someone pointing a gun at you and forcing you to be a DirecTV subscriber?

By the way, it's "hearsay", not "heresay".


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> All MPEG video is compressed - that's the whole purpose of MPEG. The HD channels on DirecTV look great to me.


Since they all look good to you we now know where you're at. Anyone who likes TNTHD and can't see all the blocking for overcompressed DTV signals really shouldn't participate in video quality discusssions.

I suspect you'd be happy with OTA analog using a composite video connection.

Enjoy.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Bizarroterl said:


> Since they all look good to you we now know where you're at. Anyone who likes TNTHD and can't see all the blocking for overcompressed DTV signals really shouldn't participate in video quality discusssions.
> 
> I suspect you'd be happy with OTA analog using a composite video connection.
> 
> Enjoy.


Are you referring to TNTHD sports? I do see the problems you mentioned. But on their typical HD-Strech-O-Vision broadcasts I've not seen any problems.

Can you clarify where you're seeing this problem?


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

Wolffpack said:


> Are you referring to TNTHD sports? I do see the problems you mentioned. But on their typical HD-Strech-O-Vision broadcasts I've not seen any problems.
> 
> Can you clarify where you're seeing this problem?


I agree for the most part the TNT-HD does a respectable job. lets face it, most of what they broadcast was never recorded in HD, so that has to be taken into account. I dont watch mutch in terms of sports on TNT as I am not a big NBA fan, but even what I have seen of the NBA looks pretty darn nice to me. FWIW.


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## scrappy 2000 (Dec 7, 2006)

D.* gave me my HR 20 free. After reading this board for a couple of months I had planed on not paying money for a product that was not ready for prime time but when I got it free I went ahead. After two missed installs I got it on line about two weeks ago. I left my series 2 tivo on line thinking that the HR 20 was junk. I am pleased to say that in the first two weeks of using it I have had no problems at all. My only problems have been my fault. I think it is very much better than my tivo. Tivo seems like a old and out dated unit. The HR 20 may die tomorrow but so far I really love it and may take the Tivo off line in a week or so. I do understand that I may just be very very lucky.


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Are you referring to TNTHD sports? I do see the problems you mentioned. But on their typical HD-Strech-O-Vision broadcasts I've not seen any problems.
> 
> Can you clarify where you're seeing this problem?


It's the stretch-o-vision channel. It's almost all upscaled SD.

As for the blocking, I've seen it on almost every channel, even the HD ones.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jbrasure said:


> Certainly not everybody will agree with me, but I would rather have 15 HD channels and a reliable DVR, than 100 HD channels and a POS DVR.


I'm just moderately curious why you're *still* telling us about leaving, even though you started singing this song about 3 months ago (12-31-06) when you first began this thread.....just mildly curious...


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2007)

Bizarroterl said:


> Since they all look good to you we now know where you're at. Anyone who likes TNTHD and can't see all the blocking for overcompressed DTV signals really shouldn't participate in video quality discusssions.


And if it looks so bad to you, why are you still a DirecTV customer?


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm just moderately curious why you're *still* telling us about leaving, even though you started singing this song about 3 months ago (12-31-06) when you first began this thread.....just mildly curious...


Well, 12/31/06 was less than 2 months ago. You do have a good question though.

It took me a while to switch over to Cable. First I tried out their basic service with the Cable box just to make sure the picture quality was acceptable. Then I got a Tivo Series 3 installed in the living room, and tested it out for a couple of weeks. Then I returned the HR20 to DirecTV and got out of my 2-year commitment. Finally this weekend I'm adding the 2nd Tivo upstairs. Once that's done, then I'll cancel DirecTV.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> And if it looks so bad to you, why are you still a DirecTV customer?


In about 3 days I will no longer be a customer.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

jbrasure said:


> Well, 12/31/06 was less than 2 months ago. You do have a good question though.
> 
> It took me a while to switch over to Cable. First I tried out their basic service with the Cable box just to make sure the picture quality was acceptable. Then I got a Tivo Series 3 installed in the living room, and tested it out for a couple of weeks. Then I returned the HR20 to DirecTV and got out of my 2-year commitment. Finally this weekend I'm adding the 2nd Tivo upstairs. Once that's done, then I'll cancel DirecTV.


You have to pay full price for both your S3's or did you get a good deal on them? Also if you don't mind me asking how did you handle the monthly fee? All at once or on the per month plan? I still have one of my S2s on the monthly even though I never really use it any longer.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> You have to pay full price for both your S3's or did you get a good deal on them? Also if you don't mind me asking how did you handle the monthly fee? All at once or on the per month plan? I still have one of my S2s on the monthly even though I never really use it any longer.


I paid $650 for each of the Tivos. They were somewhat expensive, but dang I love them! Tivo really did a good job with these boxes.

Right now I'm doing the monthly plan. I thought about paying for a year in advance, but then I figured I'd rather use my money elsewhere, and just pay Tivo the monthly fee.


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## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What can't be done on an HR20, that can be done on a DTivo ?


Years of flawless recording without missing even 1? :lol:


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## bjibber (Feb 18, 2007)

jbrasure said:


> Certainly not everybody will agree with me, but I would rather have 15 HD channels and a reliable DVR, than 100 HD channels and a POS DVR.


I agree!
I really don't see why people throw out the "150 HD channels" card when the complaint is about a faulty DVR. Serious cheerleading when you have to change the subject to combat a legitimate complaint. We are comparing a unit's reliability to other units we have owned. The reason you keep getting HR20- Tivo comparisons is because we have become accustomed to using a quality product which did not need updates or reboots. We were pleasantly surprised by the features with the Tivo rather than disappointed and discouraged by the failures of the HR20. We are not just talking about features here we are talking about basic functionality.


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## bjibber (Feb 18, 2007)

Wolffpack said:


> I didn't understand the "messing with it" reference either.


Yeah i Got 2 HR20s and they worked perfectly, then i started messing with it: you know changing the channel, scheduling programs to record. I guess that was just pushing it on my part. It works best if i just leave it on one channel and don't use it to record anything (basically a H20 with a promising future). The exciting thing is in the not so distant future D* will have the CAPACITY to feed me 100s of HD channels which i will not be able to reliably record.

I do not fault D* for the faults of the HR20. They did not make it. I do fault D* for the blinders they have on regarding the HR20 and their apparent inability to fix the problem and make the unit function to even an acceptable level.

I love my regular D* Tivos and NFL Sunday Ticket. That is what keeps me a D* customer. I really do hope they fix the HR20 or make nice and decide to play with Tivo again so i can continue to send them way too much money a month. I am not just bashing D*, as I stated I am a customer and will likely continue as such as long as the D* positives outweigh the negatives. I don't want to hear how many channels I might have in the distant future or what services might be available, my concern as a customer right now is a reliable HD DVR. This is something the competitors have (compared to the HR20).


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

ouijal said:


> Years of flawless recording without missing even 1? :lol:


That sure wasn't the case with my old H10-250 DTivo box - all sorts of issues over the years....and if you were to visit the Tivocommunity forum, you'd see there were hundreds, if not thousands, of others just like me on that.

It was anything but the perfect box some portrayed it to be. 

I've had far better results with my 2 HR20's in the past 6 months than any 6 month period with the old H10.


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## banningview (Dec 13, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That sure wasn't the case with my old H10-250 DTivo box - all sorts of issues over the years....and if you were to visit the Tivocommunity forum, you'd see there were hundreds, if not thousands, of others just like me on that.
> 
> It was anything but the perfect box some portrayed it to be.
> 
> I've had far better results with my 2 HR20's in the past 6 months than any 6 month period with the old H10.


Nah, I'm, gonna have to with the other poster. The POS20 is, well, a POS. No Grey's Anatomy last night. It played fine for 12 minutes, then pixelated, froze and died. Did that the other day on Boston Legal. Once on MP4 and the other on OTA. It's definitely the box. I had one problem with the HR10, got a new box. Never had a problem after that. YMMV.


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> And if it looks so bad to you, why are you still a DirecTV customer?


 Because most of my HD viewing is disk. Everything that is set to record on the HR20 is also set on the DirecTivo. That way everything the HR20 fails to record there is a backup. 

Once we hit the end of the 2 year commitment, goodbye DTV.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Bizarroterl said:


> Because most of my HD viewing is disk. Everything that is set to record on the HR20 is also set on the DirecTivo. That way everything the HR20 fails to record there is a backup.
> 
> Once we hit the end of the 2 year commitment, goodbye DTV.


When is your contract up?


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That sure wasn't the case with my old H10-250 DTivo box - all sorts of issues over the years....and if you were to visit the Tivocommunity forum, you'd see there were hundreds, if not thousands, of others just like me on that.
> 
> It was anything but the perfect box some portrayed it to be.
> 
> I've had far better results with my 2 HR20's in the past 6 months than any 6 month period with the old H10.


Yep, we've got 5 Tivo based DVR's in the house, 3 of which are HR10's. In the almost 7 years of utilizing them, none of the units have missed a single recording.

I can't do the math on our HR20 as it misses probably 20% of the SL's we have scheduled. What's weird about it was that for a brief time with the newer SW it got better, but then quickly reverted back to its old ways.

We just switched from HDMI to component, and will see if that makes a difference <fingers crossed>.


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> When is your contract up?


2 years from 11/1/06.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That sure wasn't the case with my old H10-250 DTivo box - all sorts of issues over the years....and if you were to visit the Tivocommunity forum, you'd see there were hundreds, if not thousands, of others just like me on that.
> 
> It was anything but the perfect box some portrayed it to be.
> 
> I've had far better results with my 2 HR20's in the past 6 months than any 6 month period with the old H10.


I would guess with all those problems you were looking for help over on TCF were you not? No one could help with suggestions? DTV wouldn't replace the unit? How on earth did you have so much patience with a box that bad?


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## chicagojim (Sep 13, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> When is your contract up?


Yeah - can I have your stuff when you quit? :lol:


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

chicagojim said:


> Yeah - can I have your stuff when you quit? :lol:


 Sure.

For a price...


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## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That sure wasn't the case with my old H10-250 DTivo box - all sorts of issues over the years....and if you were to visit the Tivocommunity forum, you'd see there were hundreds, if not thousands, of others just like me on that.
> 
> It was anything but the perfect box some portrayed it to be.
> 
> I've had far better results with my 2 HR20's in the past 6 months than any 6 month period with the old H10.


Funny how you respond to virtually every person who says they are having problems with their HR20 saying you never have problems, but also feel compelled to respond to every person who says they never had problems with their TIVO saying you had many problems.

Is it my turn to start insinuating that the H10 problems that you and thousands of others had are not DirecTV's fault and were just a overblown figment of the imagination of a vocal minority?


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## rrcrosby (Dec 17, 2006)

banningview said:


> Nah, I'm, gonna have to with the other poster. The POS20 is, well, a POS. No Grey's Anatomy last night. It played fine for 12 minutes, then pixelated, froze and died. Did that the other day on Boston Legal. Once on MP4 and the other on OTA. It's definitely the box. I had one problem with the HR10, got a new box. Never had a problem after that. YMMV.


Since you plan to bail out give this a try:

Open the top cover on your HR20 and reseat (Remove and replace) the red cable that goes from the board to the hard drive.
All your problems sound like intermittent connection with the hard drive.
I noticed that the top cover pushes down on the cable at the hard drive. 
They should have used a straight cable or turned the drive over.

I considered leaving but after research decided DTV had the best options.
Have you found better?


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## fredgarven (Feb 23, 2007)

At this point, I would like to leave, but even asking politely, they will not let me out of my two year agreement, which started just three weeks ago.

I had their service for two years with the HR10-250. It died and they replaced it with the HR20. I have called customer service and we tried to work through the issues, but they still persist. No big deal, just cancel the service and I'll send this thing back and get another provider, right? WRONG!! I am suddenly stuck in an agreement that says I will keep the service for two years or pay a penalty. The problem is, I am keeping my end of the agreement and they are not. The product does not work. They cannot fix it. If I quit their service, they will fine me. If I refuse to pay their fine, they report me to the credit bureaus.

I told them I was going to go with another provider and I would call them and let them know when they could shut off my service. I was told again I would be billed the penalty for quitting early. I explained to the lady on the phone that I had only had the HR20 for three weeks. She said there was no grace period. Needless to say at this point I am furious. But I keep my cool on the phone.

My plan is to get Dish Network installed and working. Then call DTV and tell them to shut off service. At that point I just won't pay the penalty. I will gladly pay for the service I used up to the point of cancelling, but nothing more. When they report me to the credit bureau, I will take legal action including but not limited to, filing suit, contacting the US and state Attorney General's Office, contacting the Consumer Protection Agency's fraud division, contacting the Federal Trade Commision, and contacting the Federal Communication Commission, and even the Better Business Bureau.

I refuse to be pushed around by any company. They can avoid all this by simply letting me out of the agreement. Afterall, they are the ones who are unable to hold up their end of the bargain.

I am sure at some point they will get their act together and correct the issues with the HR20. But I don't want to pay them so I can be a beta tester for a currently worthless glorified boat anchor!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

fredgarven said:


> At this point, I would like to leave, but even asking politely, they will not let me out of my two year agreement, which started just three weeks ago.
> 
> I had their service for two years with the HR10-250. It died and they replaced it with the HR20. I have called customer service and we tried to work through the issues, but they still persist. No big deal, just cancel the service and I'll send this thing back and get another provider, right? WRONG!! I am suddenly stuck in an agreement that says I will keep the service for two years or pay a penalty. The problem is, I am keeping my end of the agreement and they are not. The product does not work. They cannot fix it. If I quit their service, they will fine me. If I refuse to pay their fine, they report me to the credit bureaus.
> 
> ...


Fred,

File a complaint with your State's Attorney Generals Office and your local Better Business Bureau. Explain that you entered into a two year agreement with DirecTV fully expecting them to hold up their end of the agreement. They cannot provide you with a reliable HD DVR (which you had in the past) and while they will let you return your unit they will not let you out of the agreement.

When you call DTV to cancel, tell them you have already filed these complaints and you do not intend on paying the penalty. Also send a registered letter to DTV informing them of this fact. Let us know what happens.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

And make sure you write down all correspondence with D*....dates, names and ID numbers if you can.

Out of curiousity, have you called and asked to speak with a supervisor rather than a CSR? I've read instances on these boards where people who have had problems with their HR20's have called, complained that D* wasn't holding up their end.......and gotten out of the 2 year comittment.

It _can_ be done if you get the right supervisor; try again (I realize you shouldn't _have _to do this, but it's better than going through the headache of a lawsuit if you can get it done now, by finding the right rep).

BOL.


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## redbirdruss (Aug 20, 2006)

Would you like some cheese with that whine?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> File a complaint with your State's Attorney Generals Office and your local Better Business Bureau...... Also send a registered letter to DTV informing them of this fact.


...it appears the only advice the original poster didn't get so far is to to call CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News......write to Dear Abby, Ann Landers, and Paul Harvey.......and e-mail Rush Limbaugh, Andy Rooney, and Sean Hannity.  :lol:

You might just want to make one phone call to D*TV and speak specifically to supervisor, and have a good old fashioned civil conversation - explain that you expect nothing less than a written waiver to the agreement, based on *their* failure to comply with the terms of the agreement itself to provide a working product to you. _[Those who call to rant & rave usually don't get positive results.] _

Now if that doesn't work....

You could always wait another few weeks based on the recent positive beta test versions, which should result in a new national update that resolves any problems you have experienced. Then you'll actually be able to use your HR20 as intended. 

*...or....* ????


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

redbirdruss said:


> Would you like some cheese with that whine?


That's a constructive comment.


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

If this thread continues on it's southerly course with the shrewd comments from the pros and the cons, it's making history in the "Closed Archives"


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...it appears the only advice the original poster didn't get so far is to to call CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News......write to Dear Abby, Ann Landers, and Paul Harvey.......and e-mail Rush Limbaugh, Andy Rooney, and Sean Hannity.  :lol:
> 
> You might just want to make one phone call to D*TV and speak specifically to supervisor, and have a good old fashioned civil conversation - explain that you expect nothing less than a written waiver to the agreement, based on *their* failure to comply with the terms of the agreement itself to provide a working product to you. _[Those who call to rant & rave usually don't get positive results.] _
> 
> ...


Once again I see your providing us with the most helpful posts HDTVFAN. Here we have a new member, only 2 posts, who has had his HR20 for 3 weeks and wants to return it and move from DTV. I won't comment on your first paragraph as I may have to compare that with the temper of one of my grandchildren.

To comment on your second paragraph it's obvious you didn't even bother reading the first sentence in his post.

Why do you feel the need to attack anyone that doesn't agree with you? Someone posts the fact they'd like to get out of their commitment, or posts they have problems (even in the CE forum) and you, as you always are somehow forced to respond with some smart *** reply or with the typical "I'm not seeing that just like the majority of other users.".


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> To comment on your second paragraph it's obvious you didn't even bother reading the first sentence in his post.


Actually I did, and recommended to try again.


> Why do you feel the need to attack anyone that doesn't agree with you?


No one's "attacking" anyone, just disagreeing with your approach. I proposed trying to follow a positive approach process that might actually get results, rather than alert the world, but accomplish little. Others here have recommended my same approach - it's not unique, but it has worked.

At the end of the day, we're both just trying to help...just recommending different paths to get there.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Buddy said:


> So far you've given very little in the way of improvements and I've given VERY real and VERY much needed functions so it's not my subjectivity that is in question.


You can dismiss my claims as you see fit. They were all accurate. Arguing that a tivo box is faster than the HR20 puts your entire ability to rationally discuss the issues into question.

By the way learn to quote. Don't put your responses inside someone else's quote, it ruins the ability of others to properly reply.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

fredgarven said:


> At this point, I would like to leave, but even asking politely, they will not let me out of my two year agreement, which started just three weeks ago.
> 
> I had their service for two years with the HR10-250. It died and they replaced it with the HR20. I have called customer service and we tried to work through the issues, but they still persist. No big deal, just cancel the service and I'll send this thing back and get another provider, right? WRONG!! I am suddenly stuck in an agreement that says I will keep the service for two years or pay a penalty. The problem is, I am keeping my end of the agreement and they are not. The product does not work. They cannot fix it. If I quit their service, they will fine me. If I refuse to pay their fine, they report me to the credit bureaus.
> 
> ...


Amazing. I agree with you. Good luck and please report back to us.

An interesting promotion idea for cable or Dish: Offer to pay the penalty fee for disenchanted D* HR20 customers to escape their contracts and jump ship. I'd love to see TV commercials touting a lure like that.


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## DishDog (Nov 10, 2006)

fredgarven said:


> At this point, I would like to leave, but even asking politely, they will not let me out of my two year agreement, which started just three weeks ago.
> 
> I had their service for two years with the HR10-250. It died and they replaced it with the HR20. I have called customer service and we tried to work through the issues, but they still persist. No big deal, just cancel the service and I'll send this thing back and get another provider, right? WRONG!! I am suddenly stuck in an agreement that says I will keep the service for two years or pay a penalty. The problem is, I am keeping my end of the agreement and they are not. The product does not work. They cannot fix it. If I quit their service, they will fine me. If I refuse to pay their fine, they report me to the credit bureaus.
> 
> ...


Fred,
Have you stopped by the Dish Network Forum? I was there a couple of weeks ago and saw some receiver problems posts.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

dhaakenson said:


> Amazing. I agree with you. Good luck and please report back to us.
> 
> An interesting promotion idea for cable or Dish: Offer to pay the penalty fee for disenchanted D* HR20 customers to escape their contracts and jump ship. I'd love to see TV commercials touting a lure like that.


Actually cable usually will do that. "Ditch the dish" programs and all that. A lot of cable outlets will indeed pay any money to break your current agreement with DirecTV or Dish.


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## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

ouijal said:


> Funny how you respond to virtually every person who says they are having problems with their HR20 saying you never have problems, but also feel compelled to respond to every person who says they never had problems with their TIVO saying you had many problems.


I think the term is fanboy.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Actually cable usually will do that. "Ditch the dish" programs and all that. A lot of cable outlets will indeed pay any money to break your current agreement with DirecTV or Dish.


Hey BonScott, I have to ask, what is that thing in your avatar? It's kinda cool yet scary!


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I've been wondering the same thing.


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## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

Bizarroterl said:


> I think the term is fanboy.


You can say that again! :lol:


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Hey BonScott, I have to ask, what is that thing in your avatar? It's kinda cool yet scary!


I thought I saw a one eyed one legged putty kat...:goofygrin


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## fredgarven (Feb 23, 2007)

So today I get home and my HR20 is locked up again as usual. Aside from losing the guide data on an RBR it's really no big deal. But then I get to drinkin' and so I start getting a little peeved.

So I called DTV again and this time I told them it was locked up, AGAIN, and I am unwilling to deal with it further. I told them they have two options. They can send me a new HR20 (not refurbished) or they can let me out of my contract and I would be more than willing to give them another chance in the future once the issues got worked out.

At first I got the same old run-around. But this time I refused to give up. Through lots of befriending of the CSR's I finally got one to get real with me and understand where I was coming from. She put me through to the customer retention department and the results are so far satisfying.

Customer Retention has agreed to reduce my bill by 40% for six months and 20% for six months after that. They told me they could not replace my HR20 with a new one. The replacement would be refurbished. From the things I said to this guy, he decided to send me over to Advanced Tech Support.

This was when we hit the breakthrough. I spoke with someone who was down to Earth and VERY willing to go out of her way to try to help. She believed I may have an actual hardware issue. She mentioned something about possible bad sectors on the hard drive. We eventually got around to her saying at this point we would need to reformat the drive. I said no. I am a married man with a wife who has Grey's Anatomy, Scrubs, Desperate Housewives, etc. recorded on this thing and erasing it was not an option. She immediately said, "you know what, sir, I understand exactly where you are coming from. Would you mind holding for just a few minutes while I take care of this for you?" I said, ok, no problem.

Three or four minutes passed and a different person came on the line. The previous Adv Tech Support Rep had explained everything to the next person so I didn't have to again (this is company policy where I work). This person said she cannot guarantee that if they replace the HR20 that it would be a new one. It would most likely be a refurb and there was nothing she could do about that. After explaining to her that I really didn't want to leave DTV but felt I had no choice if they were just going to send someone elses old problems for me to deal with again, she put me on hold.

When she came back, she had an offer I could not refuse. In addition to allowing me to keep the discount previously given, she gave me an immediate $75 credit. She then said I could go to a local retailer and purchase the HR20 from them to guarantee I would get a new one. As soon as I call them back and activate the card, they would give me the remaining $250 credit to cover the entire $299+tax cost. She even gave me a direct number and PIN to her department.

I went and bought a new one and called the number and activated it. The guy said they have credited my account and all is well at this time. I will report back in two or three weeks and let you guys know if the new one actually solved my problems.

The whole point to this long story is, why did it take an entire week of calling everyday to get to this? And if that is what it takes then the message to the OP is don't give up. Keep calling them. Keep bothering them. Make sure to laugh about it in one way or another while on the phone with the CSRs. Remember that they are human and have the same old crappy issues with their lives that you do.

And yes, I would like some cheese with my whine. Thank you very much.

Fred


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

BobV said:


> I thought I saw a one eyed one legged putty kat...:goofygrin


Kinda like the killer rabbit with "_Big Pointy Teeth_*" from Monty Python.

* Italics added for British accent.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Good Job. I'm happy for you. Glad it worked out.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jbrasure said:


> Ultimately my decision came down to this: I love DirectTV, and I love Tivo. Which do I love more? Tivo. It's a shame I can't have both.
> 
> Anyway, I'll give you guys an update in a month or two. Here I go into a scary new world!
> 
> James


Who knows, we may just see you back here. 

No matter what - good luck to you!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

fredgarven said:


> And yes, I would like some cheese with my whine. Thank you very much.
> 
> Fred


Very cool Fred, also cool to have some humor. Let us know how this turns out.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> Hey BonScott, I have to ask, what is that thing in your avatar? It's kinda cool yet scary!


It's the pirate kitty. Arggggggg!


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

fredgarven said:


> The whole point to this long story is, why did it take an entire week of calling everyday to get to this?
> Fred


Because if every customer with your issues got what you got (significant credits/discounts and free machine at retail cost, not DTV cost, it would be very bad for business...

Good for you for getting what you needed, if you and DTV are happy that is a great deal.

Hopefully it works great!


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