# Trying YouTube TV



## Rich

Athlon646464 said:


> Have one on me.
> 
> Check this out:
> 
> https://ww.9to5google.com/2019/07/01/youtube-tv-progressive-fast-forward/


YTTV is beginning to look better and better. I'm gonna bite the bullet and try it for awhile. Soon.

Rich


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## Rich

Athlon646464 said:


> @Rich:
> 
> Channel lineup:
> 
> YouTube TV - Watch & DVR Live Sports, Shows & News


Once again I see YES listed. Last time I wanted to try YTTV YES was listed and then when I activated the service I could not get it for some reason. Perhaps that has been fixed. If someone wants to check that out my zip code is 08854.

Rich


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## Rich

mjwagner said:


> I didn't play with it a ton yesterday but I did notice that the UI can save many previous watched channels and you can quickly move between them. Also, using the ATV 4k it seemed to let you resume watching from where you left off when switching to another channel and then going back. Didn't play with it enough to tell how long the buffer was but it did allow FF. For me if they ever added the NFL Network and the RedZone channel it would be just about perfect.


Sounds better and better but I gotta have something to record. My first thought is to wait for spring training but the latest D* nightmare makes me want to do something now. Few weeks left in the NFL season, might sign up and see what happens.

Rich


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## Athlon646464

Rich said:


> Once again I see YES listed. Last time I wanted to try YTTV YES was listed and then when I activated the service I could not get it for some reason. Perhaps that has been fixed. If someone wants to check that out my zip code is 08854.
> 
> Rich


Yes, I see Yes when trying your zip code, but don't see it when I try mine.


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## Rich

Athlon646464 said:


> This is new for YTTV:
> 
> YouTube TV Completely Gets Rid of Forced Ads for Cloud DVR Recordings


Sweeter and sweeter. Thanks.

Rich


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## mjwagner

Rich said:


> Sounds better and better but I gotta have something to record. My first thought is to wait for spring training but the latest D* nightmare makes me want to do something now. Few weeks left in the NFL season, might sign up and see what happens.
> 
> Rich


I'm not a fan so I didn't pay much attention but YTTV seems to be very MLB friendly. The base package includes MLB Network, MLB Network Alternate, and MLB Game of the Week channels. At least those channels are currently listed in my Live Guide.


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## Rich

mjwagner said:


> So not to derail this thread completely but I did play around with the YTTV UI a bit more and what they are doing is actually pretty cool. When you start watching a live show they just start your access to the cloud DVR recording if that show. Then depending on how you go back to it thru the UI you either go back right to where you left off or you go back to live but either way you have full access to FF and REW including being able to FF past commercials. Not sure what the limit is to how many shows you can add like that but I did 4 without problems. Two live news broadcasts and 2 cable channels. FF and REW was completely smooth with a preview window. Very well done.


Okay, I'm gonna try it. Thanks.

Rich


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## Rich

Athlon646464 said:


> Yes, I see Yes when trying your zip code, but don't see it when I try mine.


I hope they fixed it.

Rich


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## dreadlk

I am seriously wondering how Directv is going to survive even the next five years let alone ten. Every month it becomes harder and harder to justify paying my bill. I could literally drop Directv and get everything I would ever need for half the price. At this point I am kind of just becoming an old man who refuses to change because I don't like change but the Logical side of me keeps shouting every month asking, what am I doing as I pay another DTV bill without just cancelling.


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## Rich

mjwagner said:


> I'm not a fan so I didn't pay much attention but YTTV seems to be very MLB friendly. The base package includes MLB Network, MLB Network Alternate, and MLB Game of the Week channels. At least those channels are currently listed in my Live Guide.


Just got thru activating YTTV. Recorded _The Late Show_ and _Jeopardy_ and found that quite easy. Put a few football games on the DVR too. Easier than I thought it would be.

Rich


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## compnurd

dreadlk said:


> I am seriously wondering how Directv is going to survive even the next five years let alone ten. Every month it becomes harder and harder to justify paying my bill. I could literally drop Directv and get everything I would ever need for half the price. At this point I am kind of just becoming an old man who refuses to change because I don't like change but the Logical side of me keeps shouting every month asking, what am I doing as I pay another DTV bill without just cancelling.


Then leave


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## Rich

dreadlk said:


> I am seriously wondering how Directv is going to survive even the next five years let alone ten. Every month it becomes harder and harder to justify paying my bill. I could literally drop Directv and get everything I would ever need for half the price. At this point I am kind of just becoming an old man who refuses to change because I don't like change but the Logical side of me keeps shouting every month asking, what am I doing as I pay another DTV bill without just cancelling.


Me too. Looks like the SSDs will be fine on the HRs and I'm losing that point of interest in D*. Not all that much left that interests me.

Rich


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## Athlon646464

compnurd said:


> Then leave


I really don't know why some posts make me laugh out loud, but this one sure did.


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## compnurd

Athlon646464 said:


> I really don't know why some posts make me laugh out loud, but this one sure did.


LOL I mean you either pay it or leave and try something else. Everyone wants to try and justify there reasons on here for staying or not staying.. Either suck it up buttercup and realize yeh your going to pay a good amount for Directv.. There is no getting around this.... Or leave and use something else... They have made it abundantly clear over the last 5-6 years they are going to be a Premium TV service. The days of big discounts or whatever to compete with everyone are gone

For me No Streaming Service offers my local RSN and my cable company lacks alot of HD channels... So Guess what.. Whether Directv costs me 50 or 200 dollars.. That is what I am going to pay.. Until that changes. #Directv4Life here


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## longhorn23

compnurd said:


> LOL I mean you either pay it or leave and try something else. Everyone wants to try and justify there reasons on here for staying or not staying.. Either suck it up buttercup and realize yeh your going to pay a good amount for Directv.. There is no getting around this.... Or leave and use something else... They have made it abundantly clear over the last 5-6 years they are going to be a Premium TV service. The days of big discounts or whatever to compete with everyone are gone
> 
> For me No Streaming Service offers my local RSN and my cable company lacks alot of HD channels... So Guess what.. Whether Directv costs me 50 or 200 dollars.. That is what I am going to pay.. Until that changes. #Directv4Life here


The main reason I stay is because of 4k sports. A few other providers are starting to provide 4k now, but none offer the NBA in 4k other than Directv. It is crazy how much more Directv is compared to even other cable options. Luckily I get discounts for now, but without discounts the pricing is ridiculous. With cable providers, you get pretty good discounts for bundling phone and internet. When I had Fios, I would get the highest tv package, plus internet and phone for 145 a month. And even after promo pricing disappeared it would go up to 165 a month. Plus maybe another 15 for hbo would be about 180. Directv is currently 196 just for tv alone for their highest package before adding any equipment. I did recently get NBA League Pass for free and Sunday Ticket Max for half off so that also makes Directv worth it for now.


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## SledgeHammer

compnurd said:


> LOL I mean you either pay it or leave and try something else. Everyone wants to try and justify there reasons on here for staying or not staying.. Either suck it up buttercup and realize yeh your going to pay a good amount for Directv.. There is no getting around this.... Or leave and use something else... They have made it abundantly clear over the last 5-6 years they are going to be a Premium TV service. The days of big discounts or whatever to compete with everyone are gone
> 
> For me No Streaming Service offers my local RSN and my cable company lacks alot of HD channels... So Guess what.. Whether Directv costs me 50 or 200 dollars.. That is what I am going to pay.. Until that changes. #Directv4Life here


I'm in the same yacht (see what I did there? ). I don't care about RSNs and am happy with the Preferred Xtra package. From my research, Cox and Dish will be a step down in the PQ category. My current promo is up in April, and if I can't sweet talk them into re-upping, then I'll probably take a look at TMobile. Sounds like it'll be a step up in PQ, I'll have all the random channels I want and supposedly "no hidden fees" unless you count the fees hidden in the page that says "no hidden fees" . It'll be $18/mo more then I'm paying on my promo, but I'll gain Smithsonian and maybe a few other channels. And it'll save me all the hassle of going full on streaming... although supposedly YTTV got rid of forced ads on CBS this week or so?


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## Athlon646464

SledgeHammer said:


> although supposedly YTTV got rid of forced ads on CBS this week or so?





Athlon646464 said:


> This is new for YTTV:
> 
> YouTube TV Completely Gets Rid of Forced Ads for Cloud DVR Recordings


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## compnurd

longhorn23 said:


> The main reason I stay is because of 4k sports. A few other providers are starting to provide 4k now, but none offer the NBA in 4k other than Directv. It is crazy how much more Directv is compared to even other cable options. Luckily I get discounts for now, but without discounts the pricing is ridiculous. With cable providers, you get pretty good discounts for bundling phone and internet. When I had Fios, I would get the highest tv package, plus internet and phone for 145 a month. And even after promo pricing disappeared it would go up to 165 a month. Plus maybe another 15 for hbo would be about 180. Directv is currently 196 just for tv alone for their highest package before adding any equipment. I did recently get NBA League Pass for free and Sunday Ticket Max for half off so that also makes Directv worth it for now.


It all depends with the discount/bundles The Bigger Cable Co's(Verizon/Altice/Comcast/whatever) bundle like hell and compete well. However in my area Armstrong which is a large Regional Company doesnt bundle worth crap. And when i price it out I think I pay 15 dollars more a month for Directv anyway


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## compnurd

SledgeHammer said:


> I'm in the same yacht (see what I did there? ). I don't care about RSNs and am happy with the Preferred Xtra package. From my research, Cox and Dish will be a step down in the PQ category. My current promo is up in April, and if I can't sweet talk them into re-upping, then I'll probably take a look at TMobile. Sounds like it'll be a step up in PQ, I'll have all the random channels I want and supposedly "no hidden fees" unless you count the fees hidden in the page that says "no hidden fees" . It'll be $18/mo more then I'm paying on my promo, but I'll gain Smithsonian and maybe a few other channels. And it'll save me all the hassle of going full on streaming... although supposedly YTTV got rid of forced ads on CBS this week or so?


I see what you did there fellow sailor lol


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## Athlon646464

This is the one I'm saving for:










Not the dinghy, btw.


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## Rich

Athlon646464 said:


> This is the one I'm saving for:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not the dinghy, btw.


I spent a lot of time on a "boat" that color. Wasn't a yacht but it did have rather large guns.

Rich


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## Athlon646464

Rich said:


> I spent a lot of time on a "boat" that color. Wasn't a yacht but it did have rather large guns.
> 
> Rich


Well, based on some of the comments in this thread, I should be able to buy the little boat in about six months with the money I'll save if I dump D*.


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## Athlon646464

All kidding aside - I would jump ship (sorry - had to say that) if PQ was better and the tech support was decent. My guess is the cost will be similar in a few years anyway. YTTV would be one I'd look at if D* pissed me off for sure.


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## Rich

Athlon646464 said:


> Well, based on some of the comments in this thread, I should be able to buy the little boat in about six months with the money I'll save if I dump D*.


I wouldn't dump it because it cost too much, I'm getting tired of the lack of service. 4 days to activate an HR. Yeah, it got activated faster than the last replacement did, that one took 5 days. To do something that should have taken a couple minutes. You can't call them and get a straight answer about anything, you can't trust them to do anything in a timely manner. We have to find ways to make the DVRs work as they should, they do next to nothing as far as refurbishing the HRs. Terrible service, going nowhere but down.

Rich


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## Rich

Athlon646464 said:


> All kidding aside - I would jump ship (sorry - had to say that) if PQ was better and the tech support was decent. My guess is the cost will be similar in a few years anyway. YTTV would be one I'd look at if D* pissed me off for sure.


Been playing with YTTV today. Interesting. Gonna let it run til the Super Bowl is over. See if it can do sports in a way that doesn't annoy me. Really easy to use so far. Kinda disappointed by the Guide, only goes out about 24 hours. But I found ways to set recordings for teams. Easier than using an HR for that.

Rich


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## compnurd

Athlon646464 said:


> All kidding aside - I would jump ship (sorry - had to say that) if PQ was better and the tech support was decent. My guess is the cost will be similar in a few years anyway. YTTV would be one I'd look at if D* pissed me off for sure.


YTTV intrigues me but no 4K and no RSN means that ship has sailed for now


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## Athlon646464

compnurd said:


> YTTV intrigues me but no 4K and no RSN means that ship has sailed for now


Haven't watched a ton of D*'s 4k, and YTTV does provide NESN here.



Rich said:


> Been playing with YTTV today. Interesting. Gonna let it run til the Super Bowl is over. See if it can do sports in a way that doesn't annoy me. Really easy to use so far. Kinda disappointed by the Guide, only goes out about 24 hours. But I found ways to set recordings for teams. Easier than using an HR for that.


I'd be very interested in your review of the service as we have similar viewing habits. You should start a new thread for that in the 'Internet Streaming Services' section.


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## TV_Guy

compnurd said:


> YTTV intrigues me but no 4K and no RSN means that ship has sailed for now


You can watch Fox and FS1 4k broadcasts using the Fox Sports App and authenticate with YTTV credentials.


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## espaeth

Rich said:


> Kinda disappointed by the Guide, only goes out about 24 hours. But I found ways to set recordings for teams.


It's a Google product, so everything is designed with search in mind.

From the search page you can click on networks and select shows from the catalog of various networks to add to your library. You can also obviously search for individual programs to add as well.


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## compnurd

TV_Guy said:


> You can watch Fox and FS1 4k broadcasts using the Fox Sports App and authenticate with YTTV credentials.


I can do that now also with directv. But Fox and FS1 are not the only companies outputting 4K


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## TV_Guy

compnurd said:


> I can do that now also with directv. But Fox and FS1 are not the only companies outputting 4K


I know but the ESPN and NBC 4k broadcasts on Directv are not streamed. If you have Optimum you should have free access to to 4k version of Curiosity Stream.


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## B. Shoe

Heading into month five of YTTV service, and I'm still more than satisfied with it. Some of you have more discerning requirements than I do from what you want and need from a viewing experience, so I can see where some view pitfalls. But I think this is a pretty solid service, and I'm happy we have a spot to talk about here on the boards.


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## Athlon646464

B. Shoe said:


> Heading into month five of YTTV service, and I'm still more than satisfied with it. Some of you have more discerning requirements than I do from what you want and need from a viewing experience, so I can see where some view pitfalls. But I think this is a pretty solid service, and I'm happy we have a spot to talk about here on the boards.


How many channels have Dolby 5.1 surround sound? It's hard to find current info about that online.


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## B. Shoe

Athlon646464 said:


> How many channels have Dolby 5.1 surround sound? It's hard to find current info about that online.


From what I've seen and been able to test out, the live broadcasts do not carry DD5.1. Some programs, in an On Demand capacity, are available with DD5.1. I haven't tried anything other than my ATV4K.


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## Athlon646464

B. Shoe said:


> From what I've seen and been able to test out, the live broadcasts do not carry DD5.1. Some programs, in an On Demand capacity, are available with DD5.1. I haven't tried anything other than my ATV4K.


That's a negative for me for sure. It seems to be the norm for most streaming services.

Thanks for the info.


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## B. Shoe

Athlon646464 said:


> That's a negative for me for sure. It seems to be the norm for most streaming services.


And a totally understandable negative. For me, it's not as huge of a kicker, as my primary means of YTTV viewing are sports and news, and I don't concern myself as much with surround sound for either. If it's a movie, series program, etc., I'm probably watching it on demand through a channel app/Netflix/Disney+/etc. that provides DD5.1. I'd mentioned before, my YTTV guide is customized to local channels, then sports, then TNT/TBS for NBA broadcasts, then the remainder of the channels. Rarely do I get below TNT/TBS when looking for something to watch.

As someone who continues to tout the YTTV service, I think that's a fair disclosure to make, in terms of my viewing habits (As everyone is a huge YMMV.) I look at YTTV as a reasonably priced means to get my locals, major sports networks, and RSNs all in one shot. I'm happy with the picture quality, but understand the lack of DD5.1 is a strike. I have nearly all the sports I want, but sacrificed NFL Network and make my way to a friend's or nearby watering hole to watch the few NFL games broadcast solely on NFL Network. I'm happy, overall, but it's a give and take situation.


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## Rich

B. Shoe said:


> From what I've seen and been able to test out, the live broadcasts do not carry DD5.1. Some programs, in an On Demand capacity, are available with DD5.1. I haven't tried anything other than my ATV4K.


Gotta give them time. The Amazon Prime app on the ATVs had only a few offerings in 5.1 at first.

Rich


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## Rich

B. Shoe said:


> And a totally understandable negative. For me, it's not as huge of a kicker, as my primary means of YTTV viewing are sports and news, and I don't concern myself as much with surround sound for either. If it's a movie, series program, etc., I'm probably watching it on demand through a channel app/Netflix/Disney+/etc. that provides DD5.1. I'd mentioned before, my YTTV guide is customized to local channels, then sports, then TNT/TBS for NBA broadcasts, then the remainder of the channels. Rarely do I get below TNT/TBS when looking for something to watch.
> 
> As someone who continues to tout the YTTV service, I think that's a fair disclosure to make, in terms of my viewing habits (As everyone is a huge YMMV.) I look at YTTV as a reasonably priced means to get my locals, major sports networks, and RSNs all in one shot. I'm happy with the picture quality, but understand the lack of DD5.1 is a strike. I have nearly all the sports I want, but sacrificed NFL Network and make my way to a friend's or nearby watering hole to watch the few NFL games broadcast solely on NFL Network. I'm happy, overall, but it's a give and take situation.


Patience. The apps will evolve.

Rich


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## Rich

Athlon646464 said:


> I'd be very interested in your review of the service as we have similar viewing habits. You should start a new thread for that in the 'Internet Streaming Services' section.


As you wish: YTTV

Rich


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## mjwagner

B. Shoe said:


> And a totally understandable negative. For me, it's not as huge of a kicker, as my primary means of YTTV viewing are sports and news, and I don't concern myself as much with surround sound for either. If it's a movie, series program, etc., I'm probably watching it on demand through a channel app/Netflix/Disney+/etc. that provides DD5.1. I'd mentioned before, my YTTV guide is customized to local channels, then sports, then TNT/TBS for NBA broadcasts, then the remainder of the channels. Rarely do I get below TNT/TBS when looking for something to watch.
> 
> As someone who continues to tout the YTTV service, I think that's a fair disclosure to make, in terms of my viewing habits (As everyone is a huge YMMV.) I look at YTTV as a reasonably priced means to get my locals, major sports networks, and RSNs all in one shot. I'm happy with the picture quality, but understand the lack of DD5.1 is a strike. I have nearly all the sports I want, but sacrificed NFL Network and make my way to a friend's or nearby watering hole to watch the few NFL games broadcast solely on NFL Network. I'm happy, overall, but it's a give and take situation.


This. I really only use YTTV (just came over from PSVue so read YTTV/PSVue) for news, live sports, and an occasional network drama. Pretty much all the major series shows I'm watching are on NetFlix, Prime, Disney+, or AppleTV+ and they usually now have ATMOS or at the worst DD+. Movies I'm usually watching on VUDU or iTunes and again usually ATMOS. So it's basically a non issue for me. I will say that sports using the DTS Neural:X up mixer in my Denon x6400h AVR sounds as good as I need it for sports...


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## grover517

Rich said:


> Kinda disappointed by the Guide, only goes out about 24 hours.
> 
> Rich


Select the channel icon at the far left and you get 24 hours of guide data for that station. Other than that, use the search. For me, it finds shows at least 2 weeks out even though they aren't in a "guide" like we are used to.


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## Rich

grover517 said:


> Select the channel icon at the far left and you get 24 hours of guide data for that station. Other than that, use the search. For me, it finds shows at least 2 weeks out even though they aren't in a "guide" like we are used to.


I don't see the "channel icon". I'm in the "Live" screen and can see the Guide.

Rich


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## TV_Guy

Rich said:


> I don't see the "channel icon". I'm in the "Live" screen and can see the Guide.
> 
> Rich


You scroll as far left as you can in Live screen and click on the channel that you want to view future programming listings. I didn't discover this one for a while.


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## grover517

Rich said:


> I don't see the "channel icon". I'm in the "Live" screen and can see the Guide.
> 
> Rich


Scroll all the way to the left for a given channel (ESPN, HGTV, etc.) and select it. You should then see show "tiles" for the next 24 hours .


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## Rich

grover517 said:


> Scroll all the way to the left for a given channel (ESPN, HGTV, etc.) and select it. You should then see show "tiles" for the next 24 hours .


Finally got it. I kept expecting the Guide to change. Thanks.

Rich


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## Rich

We've been using YTTV for a couple days now. Seems fine for everything but sports. I tried watching football games yesterday (all on locals) and finally gave up and went back to D*. My idea of watching football games on Sundays is having several games recording and waiting until most games have been on for at least an hour. Then I watch the first quarter of the first game, switch to the next game and watch the first quarter, go to the next game...and so forth. I end up watching games continuously all day long. Using YTTV or Hulu+ just doesn't fit that model. What is very easy when using D* becomes rather difficult using YTTV. This is what I was afraid of.

Rich


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## b4pjoe

Rich can you explain how was it "rather difficult" as compared to your D*?


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## Rich

b4pjoe said:


> Rich can you explain how was it "rather difficult" as compared to your D*?


Yup. Try this, this is the way I watch football every Sunday (and this is not the first time I've written this): I turn on the game I am most focused on (means I have a bet on that game) and watch the first quarter. Then I start watching the next most important (to me) game and watch the first quarter. I repeat that with every game I have recorded (which is usually every single one of them) and do the same thing. After I watch all those first quarters I start the whole thing over again with second quarters. And so forth.

Sunday all I could get on the two cable replacement services we have (Hulu+ and YTTV) were the Giants game and the Packers game and the Cowboys game during the afternoon (had bets on all of them) and going from one game to the other was an ordeal. So easy using one of my HRs and so difficult streaming that I gave up. I went back to my HRs and easily watched all the games I had recorded without any problems.

Add to that, I was using ATVs to watch the streaming games. The ATV remotes don't come close to what you can do with a D* remote when it comes to sports.

Look, this is all about how *I* want to watch sports. Just my opinions. Does not mean everybody should do things the way I do. And it has nothing to do with anything but sports. If I had a need for a cable replacement service either one of the two we have would be fine...except for sports.

Rich


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## b4pjoe

Oh OK....not as many games as you get with NFLST with YTTV/Hulu+ and I understand NFLST is not available with them. My trial of YTTV expired a few weeks ago but I seem to recall there was a quick way of switching between the last 4 things you have been watching but don't remember it now. Maybe someone else can chime in if that was really there.


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## mjwagner

Rich said:


> Yup. Try this, this is the way I watch football every Sunday (and this is not the first time I've written this): I turn on the game I am most focused on (means I have a bet on that game) and watch the first quarter. Then I start watching the next most important (to me) game and watch the first quarter. I repeat that with every game I have recorded (which is usually every single one of them) and do the same thing. After I watch all those first quarters I start the whole thing over again with second quarters. And so forth.
> 
> Sunday all I could get on the two cable replacement services we have (Hulu+ and YTTV) were the Giants game and the Packers game and the Cowboys game during the afternoon (had bets on all of them) and going from one game to the other was an ordeal. So easy using one of my HRs and so difficult streaming that I gave up. I went back to my HRs and easily watched all the games I had recorded without any problems.
> 
> Add to that, I was using ATVs to watch the streaming games. The ATV remotes don't come close to what you can do with a D* remote when it comes to sports.
> 
> Look, this is all about how *I* want to watch sports. Just my opinions. Does not mean everybody should do things the way I do. And it has nothing to do with anything but sports. If I had a need for a cable replacement service either one of the two we have would be fine...except for sports.
> 
> Rich


Set aside the availability of games for a moment (that is a different topic than UI usability) and focus on the HOW with YTTV. Once you add whatever games you want to watch to your DVR. Go to your Library and start the first game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Then go to your library and start the second game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Go to your library and start the third game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Now press down twice. The first two games you were watching will be the first two things in the list. Click on either of them and you can start watching. When you want to switch to one of the other games press pause then down twice, they will be the first two things in the list. I think it works for up to 4 items but I honestly haven't tested that. Maybe that is not what you were after but I find it to be fairly easy and intuitive UI. And the FF/REW has seemed very smoth, fluid, and accurate in skipping commercials and starting back up where you need to. You don't need to click on right or left, just hold down right or left and it will "scrubb" thru the show very nicely with a view of what you are "scrubbing" thru.


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## mjwagner

mjwagner said:


> Set aside the availability of games for a moment (that is a different topic than UI usability) and focus on the HOW with YTTV. Once you add whatever games you want to watch to your DVR. Go to your Library and start the first game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Then go to your library and start the second game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Go to your library and start the third game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Now press down twice. The first two games you were watching will be the first two things in the list. Click on either of them and you can start watching. When you want to switch to one of the other games press pause then down twice, they will be the first two things in the list. I think it works for up to 4 items but I honestly haven't tested that. Maybe that is not what you were after but I find it to be fairly easy and intuitive UI. And the FF/REW has seemed very smoth, fluid, and accurate in skipping commercials and starting back up where you need to. You don't need to click on right or left, just hold down right or left and it will "scrubb" thru the show very nicely with a view of what you are "scrubbing" thru.


Actually if you need to Q up more than 4 things, when you are viewing something from your DVR if you hit "back", under "home", on the "continue viewing" line I think it will list more than 4 items...


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## mjwagner

b4pjoe said:


> Oh OK....not as many games as you get with NFLST with YTTV/Hulu+ and I understand NFLST is not available with them. My trial of YTTV expired a few weeks ago but I seem to recall there was a quick way of switching between the last 4 things you have been watching but don't remember it now. Maybe someone else can chime in if that was really there.


Their are actually a couple of ways. When you are watching something you can hit down twice and it will show you a horizontal list of all current live shows. The first few (up to 4 I think) are the last things you were watching. Also, if you hit the back button on the "home" screen I think the second line down, could be third, is "continue watching". I think that line can list more than 4, not sure as I haven't tested it.


----------



## TV_Guy

Not sure how you deal with the constant updates on other games unless you try to FF them and scores on the bottom of the screen. By the time you get half way through a quarter they have shown updates on the games you haven't viewed.


----------



## 1948GG

dreadlk said:


> I am seriously wondering how Directv is going to survive even the next five years let alone ten.


Meant to respond a while back, but I was part of the alcatel team that installed the original mpeg2 encoders in the uplink site at Castle Rock in 1993-4, and the only way I see DirecTV to survive is to join up with Starlink, let the existing ku/ka geosats providing the 'base' streams, and the 2-way starlink LEOsats providing interactive bits as well as 'normal' 2way internet. Best of both worlds, as the dtv sats have multi-terabytes/bits of capacity (but one way) and that would releave starlink of a massive amount of data carridge.

If the DirecTV folks haven't thought if this, they will die off.


----------



## wmb

Rich said:


> Yup. Try this, this is the way I watch football every Sunday (and this is not the first time I've written this): I turn on the game I am most focused on (means I have a bet on that game) and watch the first quarter. Then I start watching the next most important (to me) game and watch the first quarter. I repeat that with every game I have recorded (which is usually every single one of them) and do the same thing. After I watch all those first quarters I start the whole thing over again with second quarters. And so forth.
> 
> Sunday all I could get on the two cable replacement services we have (Hulu+ and YTTV) were the Giants game and the Packers game and the Cowboys game during the afternoon (had bets on all of them) and going from one game to the other was an ordeal. So easy using one of my HRs and so difficult streaming that I gave up. I went back to my HRs and easily watched all the games I had recorded without any problems.
> 
> Add to that, I was using ATVs to watch the streaming games. The ATV remotes don't come close to what you can do with a D* remote when it comes to sports.
> 
> Look, this is all about how *I* want to watch sports. Just my opinions. Does not mean everybody should do things the way I do. And it has nothing to do with anything but sports. If I had a need for a cable replacement service either one of the two we have would be fine...except for sports.
> 
> Rich


As for Apple TV remotes, take a spare DirecTV remote and program it to the Apple TV. You can then use the FF/REW type buttons. The Siri remote is minimalistic, unless telling Siri to skip commercials is an option. My Samsung TV's remote was similarly minimalistic - a ring, home, back, and select buttons, and channel/volume toggles.

Just make sure your DirecTV boxes/remotes are set for RF. Once you program the DirecTV remote with the Apple TV, any IR mode DirecTV remote will control the Apple TV.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rich

mjwagner said:


> Set aside the availability of games for a moment (that is a different topic than UI usability) and focus on the HOW with YTTV. Once you add whatever games you want to watch to your DVR. Go to your Library and start the first game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Then go to your library and start the second game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Go to your library and start the third game. When the first quarter is over press pause. Now press down twice. The first two games you were watching will be the first two things in the list. Click on either of them and you can start watching. When you want to switch to one of the other games press pause then down twice, they will be the first two things in the list. I think it works for up to 4 items but I honestly haven't tested that. Maybe that is not what you were after but I find it to be fairly easy and intuitive UI. And the FF/REW has seemed very smoth, fluid, and accurate in skipping commercials and starting back up where you need to. You don't need to click on right or left, just hold down right or left and it will "scrubb" thru the show very nicely with a view of what you are "scrubbing" thru.


I was not focusing on the lack of the ST. But let me read that post again..._Sunday all I could get on the two cable replacement services we have (Hulu+ and YTTV) were the Giants game and the Packers game and the Cowboys game during the afternoon (had bets on all of them) and going from one game to the other was an ordeal. So easy using one of my HRs and so difficult streaming that I gave up. I went back to my HRs and easily watched all the games I had recorded without any problems. _I think the above paragraph is pretty clear, all I had to watch on the cable replacement apps were the three games. I watched them as I would the ST. Yes, not that many games. I did not enjoy the experience.

I'm seeing posts with more suggestions, I'll try them out Saturday and Sunday. In the post I referenced for this post are several suggestions you put forth. I tried them. I still went back to the HR.

One thing I forgot to mention. I programmed the Hulu and YTTV apps to record all three games. When I went to YTTV to begin watching the first game I saw the scores of the games. That wasn't good. Is there a way to get that rid of that?

Rich


----------



## Rich

TV_Guy said:


> Not sure how you deal with the constant updates on other games unless you try to FF them and scores on the bottom of the screen. By the time you get half way through a quarter they have shown updates on the games you haven't viewed.


Over the years I've kinda trained myself not to look at the ticker. Doesn't always work but it's less of a problem than it used to be.

Rich


----------



## Rich

wmb said:


> *As for Apple TV remotes, take a spare DirecTV remote and program it to the Apple TV.* You can then use the FF/REW type buttons. The Siri remote is minimalistic, unless telling Siri to skip commercials is an option. My Samsung TV's remote was similarly minimalistic - a ring, home, back, and select buttons, and channel/volume toggles.
> 
> Just make sure your DirecTV boxes/remotes are set for RF. Once you program the DirecTV remote with the Apple TV, any IR mode DirecTV remote will control the Apple TV.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Had no idea that was possible.

The ATV remotes have no option about skipping commercials. AFAIK. But I do have a Harmony remote and I know I can do what you suggest on that. I've done it and still use the ATV remote. I like dedicated remotes.

Rich


----------



## TV_Guy

Rich said:


> Over the years I've kinda trained myself not to look at the ticker. Doesn't always work but it's less of a problem than it used to be.
> 
> Rich


The ticker is minor compared to the cut-ins with updates of scoring plays in many of the games. If I'm watching 2 games I see them do the same update within a few minutes on both games. Until this year when they temporarily revised the lost doubleheader rule you had several Sundays in NY with only 2 games. Old rule was no game on the doubleheader network if the Giants or Jets were home on the single-header network. Giants did black out 1 game this year on the doubleheader network so their game would be unopposed on local TV.


----------



## mjwagner

Rich said:


> I was not focusing on the lack of the ST. But let me read that post again..._Sunday all I could get on the two cable replacement services we have (Hulu+ and YTTV) were the Giants game and the Packers game and the Cowboys game during the afternoon (had bets on all of them) and going from one game to the other was an ordeal. So easy using one of my HRs and so difficult streaming that I gave up. I went back to my HRs and easily watched all the games I had recorded without any problems. _I think the above paragraph is pretty clear, all I had to watch on the cable replacement apps were the three games. I watched them as I would the ST. Yes, not that many games. I did not enjoy the experience.
> 
> I'm seeing posts with more suggestions, I'll try them out Saturday and Sunday. In the post I referenced for this post are several suggestions you put forth. I tried them. I still went back to the HR.
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention. I programmed the Hulu and YTTV apps to record all three games. When I went to YTTV to begin watching the first game I saw the scores of the games. That wasn't good. Is there a way to get that rid of that?
> 
> Rich


Sorry, I miss understood what you meant. I thought you had 2 issues, the fact that you could only get three games and the poor experience with the UI. Where were you seeing the scores, on the home screen? I don't know if there is anyway to turn off scores on YTTV. I only ever watch sports live so never looked into it.
Edit - I just looked. You can't hide scores globally but you can do it by team. On the home screen click on sports, then football, then page down a bit till you see the teams row. If you click on a team one of the options at the top is "Hide all scores for this team". Not ideal but it's what's there currently.


----------



## grover517

You can hide the scores at the league level as well according to YTTV.


Open YouTube TV.
Select More







on a team or league page.
Toggle on "Hide all scores for this team/league."


----------



## mjwagner

grover517 said:


> You can hide the scores at the league level as well according to YTTV.
> 
> 
> Open YouTube TV.
> Select More
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on a team or league page.
> Toggle on "Hide all scores for this team/league."


I don't see that at the league level (I only checked the NFL) only the team level. I've either looked in the wrong place or it is something that they have not yet implemented on the platforms I use (FireTV, Nvidia Shield, ATV 4k).


----------



## Rich

TV_Guy said:


> The ticker is minor compared to the cut-ins with updates of scoring plays in many of the games. If I'm watching 2 games I see them do the same update within a few minutes on both games. Until this year when they temporarily revised the lost doubleheader rule you had several Sundays in NY with only 2 games. Old rule was no game on the doubleheader network if the Giants or Jets were home on the single-header network. Giants did black out 1 game this year on the doubleheader network so their game would be unopposed on local TV.


I don't watch two games at a time. When I see those updates coming I hit the skip quickly. I tried PIP this season and didn't enjoy the experience. When the Jets and Giants (I root for both being a Jets fan) are on at the same time I use the one quarter at a time method.

Rich


----------



## Rich

mjwagner said:


> Sorry, I miss understood what you meant. I thought you had 2 issues, the fact that you could only get three games and the poor experience with the UI. Where were you seeing the scores, on the home screen? I don't know if there is anyway to turn off scores on YTTV. I only ever watch sports live so never looked into it.
> Edit - I just looked. You can't hide scores globally but you can do it by team. On the home screen click on sports, then football, then page down a bit till you see the teams row. If you click on a team one of the options at the top is "Hide all scores for this team". Not ideal but it's what's there currently.


Ah, thanks. That helps. I'll try that tomorrow. The lack of the ST is a problem, of course. That will always be a problem if the only place I can get is D*. Had nothing to do with what I did last weekend.

Rich


----------



## steve053

Make the most of YouTube TV with these 14 tips

I think most every tip in this article has been mentioned


----------



## inkahauts

wmb said:


> As for Apple TV remotes, take a spare DirecTV remote and program it to the Apple TV. You can then use the FF/REW type buttons. The Siri remote is minimalistic, unless telling Siri to skip commercials is an option. My Samsung TV's remote was similarly minimalistic - a ring, home, back, and select buttons, and channel/volume toggles.
> 
> Just make sure your DirecTV boxes/remotes are set for RF. Once you program the DirecTV remote with the Apple TV, any IR mode DirecTV remote will control the Apple TV.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You do know there are ffwd and rewd abilities as well as skip and replay buttons in the AppleTV remote right? And with the Apple TV you can also get the scrubbing ability. There are more options on the AppleTV remote than their are on any DIRECTV remote for trick play.


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> Had no idea that was possible.
> 
> The ATV remotes have no option about skipping commercials. AFAIK. But I do have a Harmony remote and I know I can do what you suggest on that. I've done it and still use the ATV remote. I like dedicated remotes.
> 
> Rich


I still don't get where you are having issues with watching sports because of trickplay when AppleTV has more options than DIRECTV does...

My issues is I can't get my sports teams!


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I still don't get where you are having issues with watching sports because of trickplay when AppleTV has more options than DIRECTV does...
> 
> My issues is I can't get my sports teams!


Keep reading, I'm just getting started. One quick question: Where is the Prev(ious) button on the Apple TV remote? That is a big "I must have" thing for me.

Rich


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> You do know there are ffwd and rewd abilities as well as skip and replay buttons in the AppleTV remote right? And with the Apple TV you can also get the scrubbing ability. There are more options on the AppleTV remote than their are on any DIRECTV remote for trick play.


I don't think he realizes that.

Rich


----------



## Rich

steve053 said:


> Make the most of YouTube TV with these 14 tips
> 
> I think most every tip in this article has been mentioned


Thanks. This should help quite a bit.

Rich


----------



## Rich

steve053 said:


> Make the most of YouTube TV with these 14 tips
> 
> I think most every tip in this article has been mentioned


I just took care of "the scores" thing, thanks. One hurdle down...

Rich


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I still don't get where you are having issues with watching sports because of trickplay when AppleTV has more options than DIRECTV does...
> 
> My issues is I can't get my sports teams!


I think I might have found the answer to the Previous button thing.

Rich


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I still don't get where you are having issues with watching sports because of trickplay when AppleTV has more options than DIRECTV does...
> 
> My issues is I can't get my sports teams!


I've always had issues with the Apple TV remote and I am not alone.

Rich


----------



## mjwagner

Rich said:


> I just took care of "the scores" thing, thanks. One hurdle down...
> 
> Rich


AFAIK the hide all score for league for the NFL is not implemented yet, at least not on the platforms I use (FireTV, Nvidia Shield, and ATV 4K). But as I mentioned you can do it by team.


----------



## Rich

mjwagner said:


> AFAIK the hide all score for league for the NFL is not implemented yet, at least not on the platforms I use (FireTV, Nvidia Shield, and ATV 4K). But as I mentioned you can do it by team.


Yup, had to do each team. Same thing with MLB. Didn't do that one.

Rich


----------



## wmb

inkahauts said:


> You do know there are ffwd and rewd abilities as well as skip and replay buttons in the AppleTV remote right? And with the Apple TV you can also get the scrubbing ability. There are more options on the AppleTV remote than their are on any DIRECTV remote for trick play.


So, I was just saying that if he likes the what DirecTV remote does, he can get that look and feel by programming the Apple TV to use a DirecTV remote.

For me, the main reason for the DirecTV remote trick is to add a second remote to the Apple TV.

For some strange reason, Apple only allows one Siri remote to be connected to an Apple TV at a time. Programming in the spare DirecTV allows the wife to have her own remote, avoiding the issue of having to pass the remote the instant someone wants to change the channel.

Edit to say my wife prefer the tactile feel of the arrow keys on the DirecTV remote to the touch pad of the Siri remote.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rich

wmb said:


> So, I was just saying that if he likes the what DirecTV remote does, he can get that look and feel by programming the Apple TV to use a DirecTV remote.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In post #55 of this thread you wrote: _*As for Apple TV remotes, take a spare DirecTV remote and program it to the Apple TV.*
_
I did not understand that and asked you for clarification. Now you say something totally different.

Rich


----------



## crkeehn

Cudos to YTTV and PBS for coming to an agreement and including the local PBS station. It was a pleasant surprise to see UNC-TV pop up in my guide, receiving the station with an antenna in my location is iffy.


----------



## wmb

Rich said:


> The ATV remotes don't come close to what you can do with a D* remote when it comes to sports.





Rich said:


> In post #55 of this thread you wrote: _*As for Apple TV remotes, take a spare DirecTV remote and program it to the Apple TV.*
> _
> I did not understand that and asked you for clarification. Now you say something totally different.





wmb said:


> I prefer YTTV and will go that way at the end of the month, when the AT&T service month ends.
> 
> For the remote... set the remote to IR. The Apple TV allows you to program a IR remotes. I don't remember the exact menu sequence, but there is a remotes menu item and an option to program. Follow the sequence programming the buttons. They went through the arrows, menu, playback controls, etc. The only thing missing is Siri.
> 
> Here is a step-by-step from iMore...
> 
> How to use a universal remote with Apple TV
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## b4pjoe

Rich said:


> I think I might have found the answer to the Previous button thing.
> 
> Rich


Which is?


----------



## Rich

b4pjoe said:


> Which is?


I was wrong. I thought the Mini-Guide would do the trick but that seems to be for live TV. I'll let you know if I figure out a way to do it. If I can't do that it might be the end of this experiment.

Rich


----------



## Rich

wmb said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Got it. Thanks.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> Keep reading, I'm just getting started. One quick question: Where is the Prev(ious) button on the Apple TV remote? That is a big "I must have" thing for me.
> 
> Rich


Previous of what? You mean to swap channels back and forth? Or swap apps back and forth?


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Previous of what? You mean to swap channels back and forth? Or swap apps back and forth?


There is a button on the remotes labeled PREV. That button takes me back and forth between games. I'm trying to do that on YTTV.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Trying to watch the Bucs-Texans game on YTTV and it's not on. The games today are on the NFL channel and I think YTTV has that channel or an app but I can't get the game.

Rich


----------



## wmb

inkahauts said:


> Previous of what? You mean to swap channels back and forth? Or swap apps back and forth?


Swap channels would be nice. Previous channel equivalent.

Swapping apps is pretty straightforward. Double click the home (TV) button.

My current YTTV annoyance is when restarting the Apple TV after sleeping it while watching something on YTTV is that the device comes back up in YTTV with the last show paused at the point where you slept the device. I could see it as a feature rather than bug (start where you left off of a show.... Maybe more appropriate to on demand than live TV, but I digress). Anyhow, I'd prefer to resume watching live TV instead of the paused show. It's annoying when you sleep the TV on the middle of the local news, and come back in prime time to resume the paused news broadcast.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mjwagner

Rich said:


> There is a button on the remotes labeled PREV. That button takes me back and forth between games. I'm trying to do that on YTTV.
> 
> Rich


YTTV does not currently carry NFLN. This site lets you pretty easily compare the channels that are carried by the various live tv streaming services -

Live Streaming Services Channel Comparison - The Streamable


----------



## mjwagner

Rich said:


> There is a button on the remotes labeled PREV. That button takes me back and forth between games. I'm trying to do that on YTTV.
> 
> Rich


You can go back to the previous 4 channels tuned by clicking on down twice. The first 4 in that line of icons can be the last 4 channels you tuned. I don't think it works for things you are watching from your DVR though...honestly never tried it for that. But it works fine for live channels.


----------



## Rich

mjwagner said:


> YTTV does not currently carry NFLN. This site lets you pretty easily compare the channels that are carried by the various live tv streaming services -
> 
> Live Streaming Services Channel Comparison - The Streamable


And yet a search for NFL brings the channel up as if it was there. That really added to my misery yesterday.

Rich


----------



## Rich

mjwagner said:


> You can go back to the previous 4 channels tuned by clicking on down twice. The first 4 in that line of icons can be the last 4 channels you tuned. I don't think it works for things you are watching from your DVR though...honestly never tried it for that. But it works fine for live channels.


No interest in watching anything live. Must be a way to do it. I'll try again today.

Rich


----------



## Rich

I'm watching the Jets game and the Giants game on YTTV. I think I found the way to do it the way I want. I'll watch the first quarter of the Giants game and then switch to the Jets game. So far, so good...Okay! It worked! Made the switch without a hiccup. Took me to the proper place and time.

I'm gonna compare the PQ on D* and YTTV. On my new QLED. *Inky*, if you read this, I took your advice about the QLEDs. I'm gonna review it in a few days. Now the PQ: Giants on Fox, don't expect a good picture and it's not nearly as good as the Jets game on NBC. On YTTV for both. Now I switch to the 44...the picture on the 44 is better. This is the Jets game. The colors really pop on the 44. YTTV seems rater muted as far as color goes. Yeah, the color on the Giants game is a lot duller on YTTV. Probably unnoticeable unless compared to D*. But it is there. Both games. Had a hard time switching this time.

Back to the Jets game...YTTV has the 15 second click forward and back. I'd rather have a 30 second click forward but the 15 isn't bad. Even the commercials look dull on YTTV. I was worried about using an ATV and it is a bit of a problem for the same reasons the ATVs have always bothered me.

I'm gonna watch the games for awhile, I'll be back. So far it looks pretty good for YTTV. Not quite as good as the D* football experience but close enough...so far.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

I’m curios if you can adjust the settings to get the color similar. And do you have hdr turned on or not. Or is it a 4K AppleTV?


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I'm curios if you can adjust the settings to get the color similar. And do you have hdr turned on or not. Or is it a 4K AppleTV?


4K ATV. I didn't see any way to adjust the color on YTTV but I didn't look for that. The difference between YTTV and D* was very noticeable. Nothing wrong with YTTV's picture, it just didn't have the pop D* did. One thing the YTTV DVR function has that my 44 has is an annoying Progress Bar. Might be even more annoying.

Rich


----------



## b4pjoe

Do you have HDR enabled in the ATV settings? I've noticed on my ATV it looks better if I turn HDR off in the ATV settings for just watching normal HD programming.


----------



## mjwagner

b4pjoe said:


> Do you have HDR enabled in the ATV settings? I've noticed on my ATV it looks better if I turn HDR off in the ATV settings for just watching normal HD programming.


Yeah, for me the only way that colors are correct is to set my ATV 4ks to 4k SDR with match content and frame rate on. That way non-HDR content is output in SDR with the correct color space and any HDR or DV content is automatically switched and then output correctly as HDR/DV with the correct color space.


----------



## B. Shoe

Rich said:


> And yet a search for NFL brings the channel up as if it was there. That really added to my misery yesterday.


Curious as to what you specifically searched for to get a mention of the NFL Network to appear?


----------



## Rich

b4pjoe said:


> Which is?


When you "record" a game the game will show up on the Home page. Sunday I recorded two games that came on at the same time. I used the Home page to go back and forth between the games. Not as easy as it is when using one of my HRs but it's doable.

Rich


----------



## Rich

b4pjoe said:


> Do you have HDR enabled in the ATV settings? I've noticed on my ATV it looks better if I turn HDR off in the ATV settings for just watching normal HD programming.


I will check the settings and come back.

Rich


----------



## Rich

mjwagner said:


> Yeah, for me the only way that colors are correct is to set my ATV 4ks to 4k SDR with match content and frame rate on. That way non-HDR content is output in SDR with the correct color space and any HDR or DV content is automatically switched and then output correctly as HDR/DV with the correct color space.


I will set my ATVs in that manner. See if that works.

Rich


----------



## Rich

B. Shoe said:


> Curious as to what you specifically searched for to get a mention of the NFL Network to appear?


I went to the Search function and typed in "N". An icon for the NFL channel appeared. I clicked on it and I could see the upcoming games. Could not record them. Thought I might have to wait until game time but that didn't work. The app is there it just does nothing.

Rich


----------



## Rich

mjwagner said:


> Yeah, for me the only way that colors are correct is to set my ATV 4ks to 4k SDR with match content and frame rate on. That way non-HDR content is output in SDR with the correct color space and any HDR or DV content is automatically switched and then output correctly as HDR/DV with the correct color space.


Did you set "Match Dynamic Range" to "On"?

Rich


----------



## Rich

How much interest would there be in a thread about how to use/setup Apple TV boxes properly? Ah, I'll just start one...

Rich


----------



## mjwagner

Rich said:


> Did you set "Match Dynamic Range" to "On"?
> 
> Rich


Yes, that should have been Dynamic Range not content. So both match Dynamic Range and Frame Rate on. But the key is to set it to 4k SDR that way the non HDR/DV content (which is honestly most of it) gets the right color space settings and isn't forced into HDR or DV.


----------



## Rich

mjwagner said:


> Yes, that should have been Dynamic Range not content. So both match Dynamic Range and Frame Rate on. But the key is to set it to 4k SDR that way the non HDR/DV content (which is honestly most of it) gets the right color space settings and isn't forced into HDR or DV.


Thanks. I tried SDR last night while watching _Ozark_ and doing that made the picture worse. I left the other settings where you suggested and only changed back to the HDR setting. Better picture. I have no idea what I'm doing BTW. The new set doesn't seem to have any HDR settings. _Ozark_ is not in 4K.

Rich


----------



## mjwagner

Rich said:


> Thanks. I tried SDR last night while watching _Ozark_ and doing that made the picture worse. I left the other settings where you suggested and only changed back to the HDR setting. Better picture. I have no idea what I'm doing BTW. The new set doesn't seem to have any HDR settings. _Ozark_ is not in 4K.
> 
> Rich


When you say new "set" are you referring to a new tv? If so many new TVs have settings that are specific to each HDMI input so each one needs to be set correctly. For instance on my LG OLED you have to turn HDMI ULTRA HD Deep Color on for each HDMI input individually and it's not on by default. I do know some people prefer to have everything forced to HDR. The colors "pop" but they are not accurate but to each their own for sure. BTW, Ozark is in 4k DV. Looks great on my LG . My ATV 4k on my LG is set to Format - 4k SDR, HDMI Output - YCbCr, Chroma 4:4:4, Match Content on for Range & Frame Rate. If set that way non HDR/DV content will be displayed correctly but then when you watch something that is HDR or DV it will automatically switch to HDR or DV and you should see the little pop up (HDR or DV depending on the content).


----------



## mjwagner

Rich said:


> I went to the Search function and typed in "N". An icon for the NFL channel appeared. I clicked on it and I could see the upcoming games. Could not record them. Thought I might have to wait until game time but that didn't work. The app is there it just does nothing.
> 
> Rich


AFAIK the icon you see is for NFL the league not the NFL Network. If it looks like the pick below that NFL icon is just for the league not the NFL Network "channel" just like the NBA icon next to it is just for NBA, the league. Confusing for sure...


----------



## espaeth

Rich said:


> Thanks. I tried SDR last night while watching _Ozark_ and doing that made the picture worse. I left the other settings where you suggested and only changed back to the HDR setting. Better picture. I have no idea what I'm doing BTW. The new set doesn't seem to have any HDR settings.


If your set is like my LG OLED, there are different calibrations per physical input _and _per content format.

So for the Apple TV 4K, I had to adjust picture attributes ("Standard", "Cinema", "ISM mode") including white balance and color temperature for:
- 4K SDR
- 4K Dolby Vision
- 4K HDR10

The TV automatically changes modes when presented with that content, so the only way to calibrate each of those is to actually start playing something in each of those formats, an then the picture adjustments you make stay pinned to that input and format.

If SDR content looks better with the ATV4k mapping it into HDR, something sounds very off. Apple was forced to implement the "Match Range" function under video settings because they were getting destroyed on reviews for the abysmal job it did trying to map SDR into HDR.


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

I just signed up with yttv and have a couple of basic questions. My guide only goes out 5 hours. Is that normal? Is there a easy way to customize your guide other than going online? I can't switch back and forth between two shows via the arrow back button. Is that also normal? Thank you.


----------



## TV_Guy

Andrew Sullivan said:


> I just signed up with yttv and have a couple of basic questions. My guide only goes out 5 hours. Is that normal? Is there a easy way to customize your guide other than going online? I can't switch back and forth between two shows via the arrow back button. Is that also normal? Thank you.


They just expanded the online guide to a week. The only way to get more than 5 hours with the live guide on the screen is to click left until you are over the station logo and then hit enter. This should give you 24 hours of listings for that station. If you want to set a recording in the future you can use the search feature to find a program and schedule a recording. You can only customize the guide using a cell phone, pc or tablet. No easy switching back and forth between shows unlike Sling. I have a Roku and Fire Stick on each set. If I plan to switch back and forth I will change inputs.


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

TV_Guy said:


> They just expanded the online guide to a week. The only way to get more than 5 hours with the live guide on the screen is to click left until you are over the station logo and then hit enter. This should give you 24 hours of listings for that station. If you want to set a recording in the future you can use the search feature to find a program and schedule a recording. You can only customize the guide using a cell phone, pc or tablet. No easy switching back and forth between shows unlike Sling. I have a Roku and Fire Stick on each set. If I plan to switch back and forth I will change inputs.


Thanks for the info. Coming from satellite TV I guess I'm just used to everything being easy and logical. Switching between 2 shows seems like a very practical feature. One thing you mentioned. They extended the guide to a week. Yet you can only go out 24 hours. Shouldn't you be able to go out a week?


----------



## mjwagner

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Thanks for the info. Coming from satellite TV I guess I'm just used to everything being easy and logical. Switching between 2 shows seems like a very practical feature. One thing you mentioned. They extended the guide to a week. Yet you can only go out 24 hours. Shouldn't you be able to go out a week?


You can easily switch between the last several shows you watched (I think it's up to the last 4). When you are watching a show press down on the d-pad a couple of times and you will see a row of icons. The first several (I think up to 4) are the last channels tuned. After that is all the current live channels in the same order as your live guide. Just highlight the one you want to tune to and hit enter (center of d-pad).


----------



## Rich

I canceled YTTV today. I can use that if I decide to leave D*, it is certainly a good alternative. I'm gonna take a good look at the newest ATT attempt when it looks like they've stabilized it. At the moment, I'd rather use D* for sports. 

Rich


----------



## wmb

Rich said:


> I canceled YTTV today. I can use that if I decide to leave D*, it is certainly a good alternative. I'm gonna take a good look at the newest ATT attempt when it looks like they've stabilized it. At the moment, I'd rather use D* for sports.
> 
> Rich


I think you are going to have trouble finding a streaming service that will meet your sports viewing needs. About the closest thing will be league-specific stream apps that allow you watch/record games simultaneously, switch between games, tombstoning games as you switch, then allowing you to fast forward past dead times (commercials). I'm not sure what other viewing has that combination of requirements.

For the NFL, that will require a streaming alternative, which is being held up by DirecTV's exclusive deal.

I could see people wanting to switch between concurrent games, and scrub to a particular point in the game.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

Here's my big problem with D and why I cancelled. They have been without the PAC12 Network for over 4 years now with no solution in sight. So far I am disappointed with YouTube's grid setup. At this moment I can only go out 7 hours and you can't switch back and forth between 2 channels.


----------



## espaeth

Andrew Sullivan said:


> At this moment I can only go out 7 hours


This is the big change from a fixed platform like a cable or satellite box where the guide is the primary way find things. On YTTV, the guide is for "what's on now" - if you're looking for anything longer term, the app funnels you into using search. Either search for the specific program, or game, or sports league, or even just channel - and you'll get far more information from there.



Andrew Sullivan said:


> and you can't switch back and forth between 2 channels.


It's not like the last channel button, but with a couple extra clicks you can switch between things on the "Home" screen. Events or games that would be saved to your library are surfaced to the front of the home screen.

With YTTV, if there is a chance you might want to watch something, add it to your library. The storage is unlimited, so it's not like having to manage tuners and storage on a standard DVR. It's far better to "over-record" than "under-record" with YTTV.


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

Why is it a bigger change than Sling? I can go out at least 24 hours on Sling and switchback to the last channel much easier than YTTV.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Rich said:


> How much interest would there be in a thread about how to use/setup Apple TV boxes properly? Ah, I'll just start one...
> 
> Rich


Did you start one?


----------



## TV_Guy

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Why is it a bigger change than Sling? I can go out at least 24 hours on Sling and switchback to the last channel much easier than YTTV.


It would be nice if YTTV had a 24 hour guide and a last channel viewed button. Would also be nice if Sling had 60fps on all channels, RSNs, unlimited 9 month DVR and most locals. Every service has its advantages and disadvantages. I think the YTTV deficiencies have workarounds unlike the deficiencies in Sling.


----------



## mjwagner

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Here's my big problem with D and why I cancelled. They have been without the PAC12 Network for over 4 years now with no solution in sight. So far I am disappointed with YouTube's grid setup. At this moment I can only go out 7 hours and you can't switch back and forth between 2 channels.


Both are available but perhaps not the way you want them. Post #109 and #111 above covers both. It's difficult to have a single "previous channel" button when these services are designed to be used on streaming devices none of which have a remote, AFAIK, that has a "previous channel" button.


----------



## James Long

My browser has a back button. Why not a streaming interface with a back (previous channel) button?


----------



## espaeth

James Long said:


> My browser has a back button. Why not a streaming interface with a back (previous channel) button?


"Back" is a system level command on a number of platforms, so it's not easy to remap that to a "last channel" function. I'm convinced that's a big part of the reason AT&T is developing their own box with a custom remote. If you need to replicate that feature, it's just about the only way to cleanly get that done. Vue tried it with a pop-up menu, but it was different on every platform (ie, different on Roku vs AppleTV vs PlayStation) which made discovery of how it worked a little more challenging.

The bottom shelf area when you swipe down on YoutubeTV used to be a grouping of the most recently selected video streams (DVR or live) and through customer feedback it was apparently adjusted to be replaced by all related live channels.

What "the people" want might not necessary be what either you or I want.


----------



## mjwagner

James Long said:


> My browser has a back button. Why not a streaming interface with a back (previous channel) button?


It would certainly be doable to have something on the UI that you could highlight and click that would act as a "previous channel button" but it would probably take as many "clicks" on the remote as what is currently there. I described how it is currently implemented by YTTV in post #111. And instead of 1 previous channel it gives you up to 4. The issue, as I said, is that these streaming services, like YTTV, are designed to run on streaming devices and none of them, AFAIK, have a "previous channel" button the the OEM remote. The streaming services aren't trying to exactly duplicate the same user experience as cable/sat service. Some people like that. some people don't. From what I have read that is what AT&T is trying to do with AT&T Now.


----------



## mjwagner

espaeth said:


> "Back" is a system level command on a number of platforms, so it's not easy to remap that to a "last channel" function. I'm convinced that's a big part of the reason AT&T is developing their own box with a custom remote. If you need to replicate that feature, it's just about the only way to cleanly get that done. Vue tried it with a pop-up menu, but it was different on every platform (ie, different on Roku vs AppleTV vs PlayStation) which made discovery of how it worked a little more challenging.
> 
> The bottom shelf area when you swipe down on YoutubeTV used to be a grouping of the most recently selected video streams (DVR or live) and through customer feedback it was apparently adjusted to be replaced by all related live channels.
> 
> What "the people" want might not necessary be what either you or I want.


On YTTV the first 4 spots on that "bottom shelf area" are the last 4 channels you tuned. At least on the platforms I run YTTV on (FireTV, Nvidia Shield, ATV 4k).


----------



## Rich

wmb said:


> I think you are going to have trouble finding a streaming service that will meet your sports viewing needs. About the closest thing will be league-specific stream apps that allow you watch/record games simultaneously, switch between games, tombstoning games as you switch, then allowing you to fast forward past dead times (commercials). I'm not sure what other viewing has that combination of requirements.
> 
> For the NFL, that will require a streaming alternative, which is being held up by DirecTV's exclusive deal.
> 
> I could see people wanting to switch between concurrent games, and scrub to a particular point in the game.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I've been searching for a better way for over a year and there is no better way to watch the sports I want. I can see why folks are pleased with YTTV. I'm sure it will evolve into something that's easier to use for sports but I have what I want with D* and that seems to be the path of least resistance at this time.

The NFL and MLB are both well aware of the streaming issues, I think we'll see the ST migrated to streaming platforms in the very near future. MLB should hit streaming sites before the NFL does. I think.

Rich


----------



## Rich

TheRatPatrol said:


> Did you start one?


Yup.

Rich


----------



## Rich

TV_Guy said:


> It would be nice if YTTV had a 24 hour guide and a last channel viewed button. Would also be nice if Sling had 60fps on all channels, RSNs, unlimited 9 month DVR and most locals. Every service has its advantages and disadvantages. I think the YTTV deficiencies have workarounds unlike the deficiencies in Sling.


This never gonna stop unless there is an outcry for consistency across the various apps. And I don't see that happening. Best thing folks can do is expect a learning curve.

Rich


----------



## Rich

espaeth said:


> "Back" is a system level command on a number of platforms, so it's not easy to remap that to a "last channel" function. I'm convinced that's a big part of the reason AT&T is developing their own box with a custom remote. If you need to replicate that feature, it's just about the only way to cleanly get that done. Vue tried it with a pop-up menu, but it was different on every platform (ie, different on Roku vs AppleTV vs PlayStation) which made discovery of how it worked a little more challenging.
> 
> The bottom shelf area when you swipe down on YoutubeTV used to be a grouping of the most recently selected video streams (DVR or live) and through customer feedback it was apparently adjusted to be replaced by all related live channels.
> 
> What "the people" want might not necessary be what either you or I want.


Are you gonna give the new ATT app a shot? I think I will. If they do things the way their sat service works that might be the best streaming app for sports.

Rich


----------



## b4pjoe

Rich said:


> Are you gonna give the new ATT app a shot? I think I will. If they do things the way their sat service works that might be the best streaming app for sports.
> 
> Rich


I would like to try it when available. But with a 2 year commitment , or even a 1 year commitment, I will not.


----------



## Rich

TheRatPatrol said:


> Did you start one?


Here's the link to that thread: Proper Care and Feeding of ATVs?

Rich


----------



## Rich

b4pjoe said:


> I would like to try it when available. But with a 2 year commitment , or even a 1 year commitment, I will not.


Yeah, forgot about that. I would not do it if I had to commit to anything. They can't be that stupid...

Rich


----------



## b4pjoe

Rich said:


> Yeah, forgot about that. I would not do it if I had to commit to anything. *They can't be that stupid...*
> 
> Rich


Wanna bet?


----------



## espaeth

Rich said:


> Are you gonna give the new ATT app a shot?


Hard pass from me.

I want to believe that ATT can do better with their streaming products, but I end up feeling like Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football. I played with DTVN when they first launched it, and still today I have WatchTV w/ HBO that I get included with my mobile plan. They've had a bug for almost 5-6 weeks now that if your ATV4K is set to 4K/SDR it drops frames until the audio gets massively out of sync with the video. The only fix is to set the resolution down to 1080p, then it will play without having issues. This bug is present in both the WatchTV and ATT TV NOW apps.

Otherwise, ATTTV still has the things I wanted to get away from:
- Hour-limited DVR
- Service Contracts
- The ATT TV billing system

I feel like YTTV gives me enough features of "live" TV that I don't have a reason to look at other services, especially with how stable and reliable it is.


----------



## Rich

espaeth said:


> Hard pass from me.
> 
> I want to believe that ATT can do better with their streaming products, but I end up feeling like Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football. I played with DTVN when they first launched it, and still today I have WatchTV w/ HBO that I get included with my mobile plan. They've had a bug for almost 5-6 weeks now that if your ATV4K is set to 4K/SDR it drops frames until the audio gets massively out of sync with the video. The only fix is to set the resolution down to 1080p, then it will play without having issues. This bug is present in both the WatchTV and ATT TV NOW apps.
> 
> Otherwise, ATTTV still has the things I wanted to get away from:
> - Hour-limited DVR
> - Service Contracts
> - The ATT TV billing system
> 
> I feel like YTTV gives me enough features of "live" TV that I don't have a reason to look at other services, especially with how stable and reliable it is.


Yeah, I don't trust them either.

Rich


----------



## wmb

Rich said:


> Yeah, I've been searching for a better way for over a year and there is no better way to watch the sports I want. I can see why folks are pleased with YTTV. I'm sure it will evolve into something that's easier to use for sports but I have what I want with D* and that seems to be the path of least resistance at this time.
> 
> The NFL and MLB are both well aware of the streaming issues, I think we'll see the ST migrated to streaming platforms in the very near future. MLB should hit streaming sites before the NFL does. I think.
> 
> Rich


MLB has their own app, and T-mobile gave away a season subscription the past two years. You can easily go from game to game. I don't move through the stream, though.

ESPN+ was easy to go between MLS games, and allowed split screens, so you could watch multiple games.

I can't imagine that the NFL won't be available via streaming in the near future.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

Rich said:


> This never gonna stop unless there is an outcry for consistency across the various apps. And I don't see that happening. Best thing folks can do is expect a learning curve.
> 
> Rich


Accepting a learning curve is exactly the attitude they hope we accept. The guide I get for free over my antenna goes out at least 24 hours and has a one button channel back feature. The only way to improve your brand and take customers away from your competitors is too offer a better mouse trap.


----------



## mjwagner

b4pjoe said:


> I would like to try it when available. But with a 2 year commitment , or even a 1 year commitment, I will not.


Any commitment beyond 1 month and any requirement for provider specific hardware and I will pass...


----------



## wmb

mjwagner said:


> Any commitment beyond 1 month and any requirement for provider specific hardware and I will pass...


I don't mind paying for a year, but I better get a discount off the monthly rate. Loyalty should count for something.

I find it annoying that I have to waste my time and a customer service reps time to get a discount. If I have to call in, I might as well cancel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## espaeth

mjwagner said:


> On YTTV the first 4 spots on that "bottom shelf area" are the last 4 channels you tuned. At least on the platforms I run YTTV on (FireTV, Nvidia Shield, ATV 4k).


It switched to "Recommended" for me a few weeks back. Apparently the platform apps are just a shell that loads a server-side application, so features get rolled out on an account-by-account basis.

Usually the last channel I watched is in the "Recommended" list, but unless it's something that would be added to my library it's not a guarantee.

One important thing to others reading this: it absolutely won't work at all if your Youtube Watch History is paused. Make sure those are not restricted in the privacy settings: Manage search & watch history - YouTube TV Help


----------



## mjwagner

espaeth said:


> It switched to "Recommended" for me a few weeks back. Apparently the platform apps are just a shell that loads a server-side application, so features get rolled out on an account-by-account basis.
> 
> Usually the last channel I watched is in the "Recommended" list, but unless it's something that would be added to my library it's not a guarantee.
> 
> One important thing to others reading this: it absolutely won't work at all if your Youtube Watch History is paused. Make sure those are not restricted in the privacy settings: Manage search & watch history - YouTube TV Help


Just to be sure we are all talking about the same thing. I'm NOT talking about the first row on the "HOME" screen. For me that is labeled "TOP PICKS FOR YOU". I'm talking about the row that appears when you press down on the d-pad twice when watching a program. For me that is not labeled and it is a row with all the current live channels, in the order of my live channels guide, and the first 4 are the last 4 channels I have watched.


----------



## espaeth

mjwagner said:


> I'm talking about the row that appears when you press down on the d-pad twice when watching a program. For me that is not labeled and it is a row with all the current live channels, in the order of my live channels guide, and the first 4 are the last 4 channels I have watched.


I get "TV Networks"










MLB Network and BTN are actually excluded from my custom guide right now, and still show up here.

Smithsonian was a channel we last watched, but the last channels before that were locals and they don't even show up on this list.


----------



## mjwagner

espaeth said:


> I get "TV Networks"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MLB Network and BTN are actually excluded from my custom guide right now, and still show up here.
> 
> Smithsonian was a channel we last watched, but the last channels before that were locals and they don't even show up on this list.


Right, you do have to have "NETWORKS" highlighted to see the list. For me the first 4 have always been the last 4 I watched and then the rest are my custom guide in the order I have them. Maybe I just haven't hit the right combination yet but so far those first 4 have always been my last 4 on all my streaming devices. BTW, if you watch a channel by going to it even if it isn't in your guide, it will still show up if it was one if your last 4 you watched whether it's in your custom guide or not. After the first 4 though they should then be only the ones in your custom guide in the order you have them.


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

I am a subscriber to YouTube TV and Obviously there are things that I like about it. I have one major problem. It's hard to jump on the band wagon about having a cloud DVR with unlimited storage when the guide only goes out 7 hours. How can I look at the week in advance and set shows to record when I cant go out far enough to see what is on? That is not a problem with Sling so why is it a problem with YouTube TV? It's like saying our car goes 0-60 in 5 seconds but the car has a governor set to not let you go over 60mph.


----------



## espaeth

Andrew Sullivan said:


> How can I look at the week in advance and set shows to record when I cant go out far enough to see what is on?


Click on the channels and you get a list of all the popular shows that air on the channel, like this:










But say you want something more generic, like what movies are coming up across all the channels.

Go to the search interface:









Then select "Movies" and you can whittle that down by a variety of categories.










It's a different spin on how to select content. Rather than scrolling through guides day by day to see all the things that are airing, and having to wade through all the repeats and re-airings of shows, you just get a searchable catalog of all the content that will be available. Pick what you want to watch, add it to your library, YoutubeTV does the rest.

Some of this discussion reminds me a bit of the Henry Ford quote "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

The interfaces are different, YTTV is largely trying to appeal to people who won't sign up for cable or satellite. They're doing that by taking content that's currently distributed via linear channels and building a Netflix-like library for people to watch from. Odds are, if you're a Netflix fan, you'll appreciate the way YoutubeTV builds out your library. That's the demographic they're targeting.


----------



## mjwagner

Andrew Sullivan said:


> I am a subscriber to YouTube TV and Obviously there are things that I like about it. I have one major problem. It's hard to jump on the band wagon about having a cloud DVR with unlimited storage when the guide only goes out 7 hours. How can I look at the week in advance and set shows to record when I cant go out far enough to see what is on? That is not a problem with Sling so why is it a problem with YouTube TV? It's like saying our car goes 0-60 in 5 seconds but the car has a governor set to not let you go over 60mph.


YTTV is just not "guide" focused. Want to record a show...do a search for the show name or use some of the other filter/search categories/functions. Remember YTTV is made by Google so it is much more "search" focused then " guide" focused.


----------



## wmb

Andrew Sullivan said:


> I am a subscriber to YouTube TV and Obviously there are things that I like about it. I have one major problem. It's hard to jump on the band wagon about having a cloud DVR with unlimited storage when the guide only goes out 7 hours. How can I look at the week in advance and set shows to record when I cant go out far enough to see what is on? That is not a problem with Sling so why is it a problem with YouTube TV? It's like saying our car goes 0-60 in 5 seconds but the car has a governor set to not let you go over 60mph.


The DVR is pretty much irrelevant in a streaming environment. Same with a guide. With streaming, you watch watch you want when you want, regardless of whether it has been 'recorded' or not.

Why care about what's on in the next week to record when you can look at what shows became available from the past week? This way, you don't have shows that you missed recording.

Using your car analogy, "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

So youtube TV has a on demand feature?


----------



## balboadave

Andrew Sullivan said:


> It's hard to jump on the band wagon about having a cloud DVR with unlimited storage when the guide only goes out 7 hours.


The guide on the desktop version goes 7 days out as of a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## b4pjoe

wmb said:


> The DVR is pretty much irrelevant in a streaming environment. Same with a guide. With streaming, you watch watch you want when you want, regardless of whether it has been 'recorded' or not.
> 
> Why care about what's on in the next week to record when you can look at what shows became available from the past week? This way, you don't have shows that you missed recording.
> 
> Using your car analogy, "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads."


With the DVR version you can skip commercials. Most of the OnDemand content you cannot skip commercials.


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

Unfortunately I only watch on my TV.


----------



## espaeth

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Unfortunately I only watch on my TV.


You wouldn't have to watch on the computer, just use it to schedule recordings / add items to your library. It's quite a bit easier to search and add shows quickly when you have a keyboard and a mouse at your disposal.


----------



## Rich

wmb said:


> The DVR is pretty much irrelevant in a streaming environment. Same with a guide. With streaming, you watch watch you want when you want, regardless of whether it has been 'recorded' or not.
> 
> *Why care about what's on in the next week to record when you can look at what shows became available from the past week? This way, you don't have shows that you missed recording.*
> 
> Using your car analogy, "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is what folks don't understand. When you get deeply into streaming there is no need for a Guide. And, really, little use for a DVR or DVR cloud function. Unless you have a specific need for the function.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Andrew Sullivan said:


> So youtube TV has a on demand feature?


If you want to call it "on demand", yes. Just like Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime. They don't call their content "on demand" but if it makes it easier to understand...

Rich


----------



## James Long

YouTube was built on "On Demand" ... find something, click on it and watch. Live TV is a relatively recent addition. Creating a vMVPD (broadcast and cable channels and related channel content) is just the latest step in their evolution.


----------



## wmb

Rich said:


> This is what folks don't understand. When you get deeply into streaming there is no need for a Guide. And, really, little use for a DVR or DVR cloud function. Unless you have a specific need for the function.
> 
> Rich


For me, the guide is useful for what's on now, or what's on next.

The best feature of You Tube TV guide is its customizability. You can not only hide unwanted channels, but rearrange the order of channels to put most watched together or up top. And, you do it once and it is set for all devices using the Google account.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wmb

James Long said:


> YouTube was built on "On Demand" ... find something, click on it and watch. Live TV is a relatively recent addition. Creating a vMVPD (broadcast and cable channels and related channel content) is just the latest step in their evolution.


The big question is why create a vMVPD? What is the appeal of live TV, especially when most of the live TV content isn't actually live.

Conventional wisdom is that they lose money on the service. Why offer an unprofitable service, particularly since most people that are potential customers have access to a similar service available through a local cable or phone company at a similar price. YTTV subscribers need internet service from these cable or phone companies.

The business model doesn't make sense.

If this is just the latest step in the evolution, what is the industry evolving into?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rich

wmb said:


> The big question is why create a vMVPD? What is the appeal of live TV, especially when most of the live TV content isn't actually live.
> 
> Conventional wisdom is that they lose money on the service. Why offer an unprofitable service, particularly since most people that are potential customers have access to a similar service available through a local cable or phone company at a similar price. YTTV subscribers need internet service from these cable or phone companies.
> 
> The business model doesn't make sense.
> 
> If this is just the latest step in the evolution, *what is the industry evolving into?*


Something better than it's ever been, I hope. So far, so good.

Rich


----------



## James Long

wmb said:


> Conventional wisdom is that they lose money on the service. Why offer an unprofitable service, particularly since most people that are potential customers have access to a similar service available through a local cable or phone company at a similar price. YTTV subscribers need internet service from these cable or phone companies.
> 
> The business model doesn't make sense.
> 
> If this is just the latest step in the evolution, what is the industry evolving into?


YouTube has the benefit of starting as a streaming service ... user contributed videos. They built their delivery service, a content delivery network, based on content that they did not have to pay for. Where most other streamers have to build a network from scratch (or buy capacity from a CDN) YouTube has those resources in place. They don't have to be a vMVPD, but why not? People already turn to them for "something to watch" ... they might as well offer a "cable" service.

TV remains event oriented. While DVRs have reduced the pressure to be in your chair at a particular night at a particular time for a particular show, the better content turns in to "event TV". If you don't see the content at the moment of release you're missing out. Linear channels thrive on event content. Even if the event is pre-recorded.

The evolution I referred to was YouTube. Not that they are moving away from the main mission (user contributed videos) but they are adding something that people want and will pay for. If vMVPD fails it won't be the end of the company.


----------



## espaeth

wmb said:


> The big question is why create a vMVPD? What is the appeal of live TV, especially when most of the live TV content isn't actually live.


The goal of Youtube (regular Youtube, not YoutubeTV) is to get you to keep watching more Youtube so they have more opportunities to show you ads.

Operating as a vMVPD gives them 2 key features:

1) Your viewing preferences gives Google/Youtube yet another source of data to build a user profile to help their targeted advertising business. It also feeds into the standard Youtube algorithm for things you might be interested in watching.
2) They focus pretty heavily on channels that people watch live, channels that carry news and sports programming. When you watch live, they have an opportunity to insert their lucrative targeted ads as you're watching.

Since they already have the distribution infrastructure for regular Youtube at a far more mammoth scale, for them to offer live TV doesn't really cost them anything more infrastructure-wise. Even if they offer live programming at their cost, I believe their bet is they can still come out ahead with the advertising gains.


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## wmb

James Long said:


> TV remains event oriented. While DVRs have reduced the pressure to be in your chair at a particular night at a particular time for a particular show, the better content turns in to "event TV". If you don't see the content at the moment of release you're missing out. Linear channels thrive on event content. Even if the event is pre-recorded.


Channel-oriented (v)MVPD do not help the event model. Using sports as a baseline event, you may get one or two games in a competition at a time using an MVPD, whether that competition is college football, basketball, NCAA, or the FA Cup. A better distribution model for sports is ESPN+, where you can find non-league FA Cup games this weekend.

Granted, if all you care about in college football is the Bowl Subdivision Playoffs, hey the MVPD has you covered. But, where do you go if you went to a non-FBS school and want to watch your college's game?

Point being, there are far too many events that people are interested in to be covered by 70 channels.

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## James Long

wmb said:


> Point being, there are far too many events that people are interested in to be covered by 70 channels.


So expand the number of channels. Satellite has hundreds of channels ... streaming could offer every live feed available as long as the signal can be routed to the viewer.

That is the argument in favor of live streamed TV. This isn't the 1980s. Watching an edited synopsis or at best a tape delay of your favorite team doesn't work as well as being able to watch it now. Now before someone tells you the score or otherwise spoils the game. The same applies to event based TV. Go ahead, be the GoT fan in your group who is last to see the show. You might as well watch it months later if you don't see it on the night of release. You don't have to watch live, but you do need to watch before the programming is stale.

Programmers are trying to create event television ... including social media hooks where you can chat along with pre-taped shows as they are released via live streams. Broadcast is just old school live streaming. Event TV works.


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## wmb

James Long said:


> So expand the number of channels. Satellite has hundreds of channels ... streaming could offer every live feed available as long as the signal can be routed to the viewer...
> 
> .Watching an edited synopsis or at best a tape delay of your favorite team doesn't work as well as being able to watch it now...
> 
> The same applies to event based TV. Go ahead, be the GoT fan in your group who is last to see the show...
> 
> Programmers are trying to create event television ... including social media hooks where you can chat along with pre-taped shows as they are released via live streams. Broadcast is just old school live streaming. Event TV works.


Anyhow, yes, GoT is an event, and it's a big event that lots of people watch. The kind of event that fits the MVPD model well. But the entire GoT series is somewhere around 100 hours of events over 8 years. Not only that, but it was actually carried as part of a traditional MVPD programming.

There is a limit to the number of channels that can be created and carried, but that's not the real problem. Well, it kind of is, because not long ago, DirecTV struggled to have 10 channels free for Sunday Ticket. Now, they can probably add 30-50 single event channels at any time. But, the bigger problem is getting channels interested in the rights to the events, then getting the rights to the channels.

How many people do you think watched Millwall v. Newport County in the FA Cup this weekend? It streamed on ESPN+. In fact, this past weekend, ESPN+ streamed all 32 FA Cup games, about 64 hours. Oh, and ESPN+ also streamed the Italian Serie A, a number of college basketball games, along with a number of other sporting events. These are all events, and they never could all be shown on a traditional MVPD.

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## James Long

This thread isn't about the limitations of DIRECTV. This thread is about YouTube TV.

The question asked was why people need live TV. There is a lot of event based TV (not all of it being live sports) where a live linear channel is the best way to distribute the program. An easy choice for sports since most games are events. But creating an event remains a part of the TV landscape.

BTW: Both streamers and DIRECTV are affected by bandwidth. DIRECTV has to choose how many channels they can support based on their available bandwidth. Creating a channel for a low popularity feed is a tough choice. Streamers have to figure out how to serve many customers over their CDN service - each customer consuming bandwidth. It doesn't matter if a million people are watching one feed and one person is watching each of a million feeds to a streamer. They are hosting two million streams. For DIRECTV, they want the two million watching the streams they can fit on their service.

One person watching each of a million feeds (whether stored On Demand or live channels) is a major benefit of streaming. Being able to reach a million people with one stream is a major benefit of broadcast/satellite like DIRECTV.


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## tcatdbs

wmb said:


> For me, the guide is useful for what's on now, or what's on next.
> 
> The best feature of You Tube TV guide is its customizability. You can not only hide unwanted channels, but rearrange the order of channels to put most watched together or up top. And, you do it once and it is set for all devices using the Google account.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The main problem with the guide is not showing program info. What's the purpose of a guide if it doesn't guide you. You have to click 5-8 clicks to get to program info. And there's no "new" or dates. I think YouTube is pushing search rather than scroll to find. Takes some getting used to. I love it, wife hates it. So we have Dish and YTTV. . Mainly got YT for daughter sharing.


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## mjwagner

tcatdbs said:


> The main problem with the guide is not showing program info. What's the purpose of a guide if it doesn't guide you. You have to click 5-8 clicks to get to program info. And there's no "new" or dates. I think YouTube is pushing search rather than scroll to find. Takes some getting used to. I love it, wife hates it. So we have Dish and YTTV. . Mainly got YT for daughter sharing.


They do need to fix the issue with the current live program in the guide. They need to provide a way to easily get program details without tuning to it. However, if you click to the right of the current live program and just click on any upcoming program in the guide you do get a synopsis of the program. They need to allow something similar with the current live program column.


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## Andrew Sullivan

How do you know how to do all of these things? Like customizing channels, Attanging channels, deleting channels.


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## wmb

James Long said:


> One person watching each of a million feeds (whether stored On Demand or live channels) is a major benefit of streaming. Being able to reach a million people with one stream is a major benefit of broadcast/satellite like DIRECTV.


Here's the problem with that... An article from 2 years ago says You Tube streamed over 1.25 billion hours of TV per day.

DirecTV has about 17 million customers. To match that figure, each DirecTV customer (household) would need to watch almost 100 hours of TV per day.

Heck, Netflix is somewhere around 100 million hours per day. That's probably about 25-50 percent of the amount of DirecTV watched per day.

We Spend A Billion Hours A Day On YouTube, More Than Netflix And Facebook Video Combined

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## wmb

Andrew Sullivan said:


> How do you know how to do all of these things? Like customizing channels, Attanging channels, deleting channels.


You can customize the guide in the Apple iPhone app or using a web browser. On the iPhone, go into settings-> live guide and from there, check/uncheck channels, and drag and drop in order.






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## James Long

wmb said:


> Here's the problem with that... An article from 2 years ago says You Tube streamed over 1.25 billion hours of TV per day.


1.25 billion hours of content. What is the problem? You are illustrating my point. YouTube can stream millions of different content to various viewers. DIRECTV is limited to a few thousand channels but there is no limit to how many viewers can watch simultaneously.


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## tcatdbs

Yes, much easier to manipulate the custom guide in the app. Settings/live guide. Put in any order and only show what you want to see.

Even the info on future programs clicking on them is not adequate. Should have at least a "new" and date first aired. S3 E11, is not enough.


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## wmb

James Long said:


> 1.25 billion hours of content. What is the problem? You are illustrating my point. YouTube can stream millions of different content to various viewers. DIRECTV is limited to a few thousand channels but there is no limit to how many viewers can watch simultaneously.


No, not content. 1.25 billion hours of actual screen time. That's the number of hours watched each day.

Your point has been that You Tube doesn't have the capacity to delivery independent streams to customers to match DirecTV's ability to broadcast to their customers. My point is that You Tube is currently delivering more hours of actual video images to screens than DirecTV.

The TVs in each DirecTV customer's house would have to be on almost 100 hours per day to match the number of hours of video You Tube streams every day.

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## mjwagner

tcatdbs said:


> Yes, much easier to manipulate the custom guide in the app. Settings/live guide. Put in any order and only show what you want to see.
> 
> Even the info on future programs clicking on them is not adequate. Should have at least a "new" and date first aired. S3 E11, is not enough.


You can't customize the guide (add, delete, or rearrange channels) using any streaming device AFAIK. You need to use the app on a phone or tablet or use a browser or app on a PC (might work on a MAC too, IDK as I don't use MACs).


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## b4pjoe

A browser can customize the guide on a Mac as well.


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## James Long

wmb said:


> Your point has been that You Tube doesn't have the capacity to delivery independent streams to customers to match DirecTV's ability to broadcast to their customers.


You are having extreme difficulty reading. That is not my point nor have I made any sort of claim. The point is that it doesn't matter if millions are watching the same content or different content. Each customer gets their own stream. As long as they have the capacity to serve all of their customers (and they do) they can serve any of their content. Including the "live" content that people get from MVPDs.

All streamers face the capacity issue ... having a CDN that can deliver. YouTube is performing well. If that doesn't make my opinion clear I can't help you.


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## Andrew Sullivan

What's the deal with YTTV and ESPN? I record First Take and Pardon the Interuption and when they go to a commercial break instead of seeing a commercial all I get is a message on the screen for 3 minutes saying, Commercial break. We'll be right back. I have never ever seen this before.


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## espaeth

That's where the future targeted ads will be inserted. As I understand it, they don't have enough active ad buys to populate all the times yet, so you'll often either see channel slates (like on ESPN) or sometimes nature scenes with the Youtube TV logo in the corner.

Don't worry, those will disappear soon enough once advertisers catch up.


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## Andrew Sullivan

Seeing as how ESPN is the number one watched channel and these two shows are wildly popular, I wouldn't expect them to have a problem filling advertising


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## wmb

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Seeing as how ESPN is the number one watched channel and these two shows are wildly popular, I wouldn't expect them to have a problem filling advertising


I know when we had DirecTV Now, they had a lot of open slots like that, too. DirecTV Now used a card for a show with some odd music to fill the whole. And, it's not just on ESPN that there are open slots like this.

I'm wondering if these targeted ads are not considered effective enough to justify the cost.

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## James Long

The least they could do is fill the space with per impression ads. If they can't sell filler ads then there is a problem.


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## espaeth

I think it's a different marketplace than regular broadcast TV. Sling went the "sell every ad space cheap" route and you'll see quite a few complaints about the loud, repetitive PSAs that get injected into all the channels because of where it got priced in.

Advertising is done wrong so frequently on broadcast TV that people have strong feelings about DVRs and abilities to skip ads. The more you get bombarded with catheter and drug lawsuit commercials, the more likely you are to tune it out entirely. For a corporation like Alphabet that makes its money on advertising, they are looking to refine this landscape so it's closer to the tailored targeted advertising that Facebook is doing with Instagram than the "spray and pray" approach that is a byproduct of broadcast technology. Advertising just works better if you're showing people things that are actually relevant to them. I think that's why you see them taking the least offensive approach right now with channel slates and nature scenes, so they don't precondition people to having a bad taste before their tailored ad experience gets off the ground.


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## B. Shoe

Everyone seems to want to be able to bypass advertising, yet we're critiquing how there aren't ads sometimes filling an available ad space. 


espaeth said:


> Advertising just works better if you're showing people things that are actually relevant to them. I think that's why you see them taking the least offensive approach right now with channel slates and nature scenes, so they don't precondition people to having a bad taste before their tailored ad experience gets off the ground.


There's a lot of truth to this, and rest of espaeth's post. I see those graphic slates and scenery spots that fill, at times on places like ESPN, during the live broadcasts. They're only 15 or 30-second spots, tops.


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## wmb

espaeth said:


> For a corporation like Alphabet that makes its money on advertising, they are looking to refine this landscape so it's closer to the tailored targeted advertising that Facebook is doing with Instagram than the "spray and pray" approach that is a byproduct of broadcast technology.


My recollection back when I was with DirecTV, they tried to do that with ad slots. Vaguely, I think the traditional broadcast networks leave open slots for their OTA locals to sell and fill. I'm not sure, but I think cable does a better job filling them.

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## James Long

Most cable channels have had slots for "cross channel promotion" or other local inserts for decades. I remember watching back in the 1980s late at night when channels would transmit a block of ads to the cable systems (usually overnight early Sunday or Monday morning). Viewers would see a slate explaining the ad, a countdown and the ad. The cable system would record the block, break it up into commercials overlay their channel information and insert it into the "local insert" slots on the cable channels. While watching in the daytime you would hear a cue for their automation to start the insert (usually a burst of touchtones). On some channels you could see cues in the vertical blanking interval where closed captioning was broadcast.

Over the years (if one was watching closely) one could see evidence of these local inserts - usually the channel number or cable/satellite company name overlaid or tagged on a cross channel promotional spot. The ad would say "DISH channel 138" or "DIRECTV channel 245" on a promotion for a program on TNT. These local inserts were also used for paid ads and in recent years both DIRECTV and DISH have been inserting targeted ads using customer's DVRs. Cable and satellite companies have decades of experience filling that space.

Broadcast TV networks (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, CW, etc) have always had time during their network hours for the local affiliates. Even during the Superbowl there is time set aside for the local affiliates to use those slots. These local inserts are filled by the stations, not the satellite company or cable system (the laws that allow retransmission of local broadcast signals prevent editing by the cable or satellite company). In rare cases such as the early years of FOX broadcasting the cable system would become the local affiliate and be able to fill the local ad space. Additional broadcast stations and subchannels have moved most broadcast networks on to actual OTA stations.

Back when television and radio began streaming their content there were some "rights issues" that led to prohibitions on what could be streamed - not just programming that was purchased by the affiliate for in market OTA broadcast, but commercials and production libraries. Often when you see a local station stream their newscasts you will see "we are in commercial" announcements instead of the locally transmitted advertisements due to rights issues. They could fill those slots with ads that they have the right to stream.


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## wmb

James, thanks for the background. At this point, my biggest question is who is leaving money on the table, and why? Does You Tube/Google have the right to fill the slot and hasn’t sold the ad, or is it something else?


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## B. Shoe

James Long said:


> Back when television and radio began streaming their content there were some "rights issues" that led to prohibitions on what could be streamed - not just programming that was purchased by the affiliate for in market OTA broadcast, but commercials and production libraries. Often when you see a local station stream their newscasts you will see "we are in commercial" announcements instead of the locally transmitted advertisements due to rights issues. They could fill those slots with ads that they have the right to stream.


This, coming from experience, is correct. During my tenure in local news, during our infancy of Internet and streaming newscasts during events of severe weather or breaking news, we never had rights to stream a majority of our ad content. We literally had to have someone there switching the feed to a slate back and forth from the actual broadcast during breaks (Note: That person was me.)

I think that has changed quite a bit now, but there's still some premise to that today, i'd wager.


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## Andrew Sullivan

How do you delete a recorded episode?


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## espaeth

Andrew Sullivan said:


> How do you delete a recorded episode?


You can't; it ages out of your library after 9 months.

It's not a DVR in the traditional sense where you have to deal with space and timer constraints. Episodes get marked as "Watched" and that's how you keep your place in a series, very similar to how you watch series on a service like Netflix or Hulu.


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## Andrew Sullivan

It seems like if it can detect record and watched it should be simple to include a delete function. All those watched shows just clutter up the screen.


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## tcatdbs

You can just remove it from "added", and it will disappear from New in library. That's pretty much the main screen I use other than live.


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## 1948GG

So I thought I'd give it a try again, after the two week tryout 2 months ago; I've already sent three feedback messages pointing out major programming errors with their system, this after some 2 hours trying to set it up. Here's a couple:

1. Trying to set up a custom live listing, their system randomly swaps the channels around without any user intervention. I did figure out that if I backed out of the listing page after moving each channel listing, that reduced *but did not eliminate* the system continuing it's random swapping things around. One minute using this 'feature' would have shown the programmer or their supervisor that there were problems. In making some half dozen changes it took close to an hour changing things around to where it settled down.

2. In setting up the family share system, while trying to add members from your contacts list, the program skips huge parts of your contacts, which means you can't add them. What gives with this??? Makes no sense. Yes, I did figure a way around this error, but I shouldn't have to. But google/gmail is screwed up as well, by linking their system so tightly is a big mistake, so now one has two systems that don't integrate. What a mess.


3. When playing back a dvr'd program that is is being recorded, you get a 'join live' or 'start from beginning' query; fine. But the if you exit out of the playback, like jump to another channel or exit yttv then come back to the recording, it hasn't remembered where you left off. Huh? I haven't seen any dvr system that didn't remember, period, and that includes all the tveverywhere apps out there, of which my poor roku is jam packed with >100 of. Now, when the program has ended, it does recall when you left off, but apparently not if the show is still running. I'll check this some more but you don't get a 'play from where you left off' query. 'Resume from last watch' is available on the roku app, but not on the android app, then again, on the roku you don't get a 'start from beginning' consistently, apparently only when selecting fro the 'live' guide. In short, it's all messed up. They should have a programmer assigned to making sure the user interface is consistant across all platforms, period. Then again, on the roku the audio looses sync with the video when one 'resumes'. Neat.

4. Even though I have 3 'family member' the system doesn't give one the choice of which subaccount to choose when logging in, and if one tries to change which account to go to after logging in, one gets caught in a 'free trial' 'give us you credit card' loop. Again, huh??? This is the first service I've seen where one can't change profiles easily on the fly. I'll keep trying but....

5. I think I saw comments on this, but a live grid guide that first, doesn't go back from the current date/time and only goes forward 6 hours is pathetic. Whoever thought this was acceptable needs to join the unemployment line.

Bamtech. I warned people about them on psvue. If it wasn't for pbs I wouldn't have even tried this again. I added more problems as I went along, but I find another mess up every 10 minutes or so.

Final thought before I add more problems; I love that when one tries to send a complaint that the system gives you one of sometimes one or up to five or so areas, instead of allowing you to specify. It's like saying 'hey, these are the only areas we're going on look at, forget about anything else'.


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## B. Shoe

1948GG said:


> So I thought I'd give it a try again, after the two week tryout 2 months ago; I've already sent three feedback messages pointing out major programming errors with their system, this after some 2 hours trying to set it up. Here's a couple:
> 
> 1. Trying to set up a custom live listing, their system randomly swaps the channels around without any user intervention. I did figure out that if I backed out of the listing page after moving each channel listing, that reduced *but did not eliminate* the system continuing it's random swapping things around. One minute using this 'feature' would have shown the programmer or their supervisor that there were problems. In making some half dozen changes it took close to an hour changing things around to where it settled down.
> 
> 2. In setting up the family share system, while trying to add members from your contacts list, the program skips huge parts of your contacts, which means you can't add them. What gives with this??? Makes no sense. Yes, I did figure a way around this error, but I shouldn't have to. But google/gmail is screwed up as well, by linking their system so tightly is a big mistake, so now one has two systems that don't integrate. What a mess.
> 
> 3. When playing back a dvr'd program that is is being recorded, you get a 'join live' or 'start from beginning' query; fine. But the if you exit out of the playback, like jump to another channel or exit yttv then come back to the recording, it hasn't remembered where you left off. Huh? I haven't seen any dvr system that didn't remember, period, and that includes all the tveverywhere apps out there, of which my poor roku is jam packed with >100 of. Now, when the program has ended, it does recall when you left off, but apparently not if the show is still running. I'll check this some more but you don't get a 'play from where you left off' query. 'Resume from last watch' is available on the roku app, but not on the android app, then again, on the roku you don't get a 'start from beginning' consistently, apparently only when selecting fro the 'live' guide. In short, it's all messed up. They should have a programmer assigned to making sure the user interface is consistant across all platforms, period. Then again, on the roku the audio looses sync with the video when one 'resumes'. Neat.
> 
> 4. Even though I have 3 'family member' the system doesn't give one the choice of which subaccount to choose when logging in, and if one tries to change which account to go to after logging in, one gets caught in a 'free trial' 'give us you credit card' loop. Again, huh??? This is the first service I've seen where one can't change profiles easily on the fly. I'll keep trying but....
> 
> 5. I think I saw comments on this, but a live grid guide that first, doesn't go back from the current date/time and only goes forward 6 hours is pathetic. Whoever thought this was acceptable needs to join the unemployment line.
> 
> Bamtech. I warned people about them on psvue. If it wasn't for pbs I wouldn't have even tried this again. I added more problems as I went along, but I find another mess up every 10 minutes or so.
> 
> Final thought before I add more problems; I love that when one tries to send a complaint that the system gives you one of sometimes one or up to five or so areas, instead of allowing you to specify. It's like saying 'hey, these are the only areas we're going on look at, forget about anything else'.


I wish I was of more assistance on your struggles. I haven't experienced trouble like anything you're describing with Family Share, separate logins, DVR memory, etc.


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## 1948GG

A fair number of the problems, particularly in the 'family share' system was directly caused by google systems not working right. I finally got someone at yttv to respond, halfway through checking this out we could get nothing to work right then all of a sudden things started working. Gee, no kidding. Google. But any company or part of a company that relies on another to run their system has to take that with a grain of salt about the size of Lots wife. In other words, watch them like a hawk. And if you don't, beware.


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## 1948GG

So after all the work I did with yttv, both on my own and with their support folks, and had everything working including the two family shares, i start it up this morning and... all that I did yesterday has been eliminated/deleted. Wtf???

Bizzarly, the android app seems to have access to all the programming and changes I did yesterday, but my roku doesn't. So trying to nudge things from one platform to the other, may take all morning.


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## mjwagner

1948GG said:


> So after all the work I did with yttv, both on my own and with their support folks, and had everything working including the two family shares, i start it up this morning and... all that I did yesterday has been eliminated/deleted. Wtf???
> 
> Bizzarly, the android app seems to have access to all the programming and changes I did yesterday, but my roku doesn't. So trying to nudge things from one platform to the other, may take all morning.


Sorry to hear you are having these issues. My experience so far with YTTV has been very good with no problems at all..."knock on wood". Perhaps it is a platform thing? I use FireTV devices (many different kinds), Nvidia Shields, and ATV 4k's. I don't do Roku...


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## espaeth

1948GG said:


> 3. When playing back a dvr'd program that is is being recorded, you get a 'join live' or 'start from beginning' query; fine. But the if you exit out of the playback, like jump to another channel or exit yttv then come back to the recording, it hasn't remembered where you left off.


Do you have search and watch history paused?

Manage search & watch history - YouTube TV Help

If you tell Youtube not to save your watch history, that impacts your ability to resume from last playback point because you're telling them not to save that information.



1948GG said:


> 4. Even though I have 3 'family member' the system doesn't give one the choice of which subaccount to choose when logging in, and if one tries to change which account to go to after logging in, one gets caught in a 'free trial' 'give us you credit card' loop. Again, huh??? This is the first service I've seen where one can't change profiles easily on the fly.


I'm assuming you went through this process? 




Important note: You have to use a consumer Google account for family sharing. If you're trying to use a G Suite or old GApps for Domains account, you can't use family sharing from that account.



1948GG said:


> 5. I think I saw comments on this, but a live grid guide that first, doesn't go back from the current date/time and only goes forward 6 hours is pathetic. Whoever thought this was acceptable needs to join the unemployment line.


There have been YTTV engineers who have posted about this on Reddit. It's intentionally designed to nudge people away from time-based guide programming selection. They want you to use search and to build a catalog of things to watch. The grand plan for this service is to take the content that is delivered linearly on standard cable/satellite networks and bridge it into a catalog closer to what Netflix offers. That's their market differentiator -- they're not just trying to recreate the same cable/satellite experience over the Internet.



1948GG said:


> Bizzarly, the android app seems to have access to all the programming and changes I did yesterday, but my roku doesn't. So trying to nudge things from one platform to the other, may take all morning.


Any chance you're running Pi-Hole or another DNS filtering service? There are a couple lists that are a bit too aggressive in their Google domain block list, and people have reported some odd behaviors with YoutubeTV with those lists enabled.

I'm using iOS (iPhone / iPad), AppleTV 4K, Apple TV Gen4, RokuTV, and Roku Stick+. I haven't run into any problems that you've mentioned.


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## 1948GG

'Grand Plan'? Gotta be kidding me. What are you supposed to do when a network or station changes their schedule, or what about what I ran into today, when a new program is announced yet since it doesn't exist yet or in the past, you can't add it to your dvr? Sounds like these programmers haven't ever watched a day of American TV in their lives, definately never spent a second in a tv station or network master control room. 

After I cleaned up the mess that happened last night while I was asleep, while watching today I saw the 'live guide' channel list change its listing around at least 5 times. Back to the phone app I go and change it back, then an hour later it changes yet again. This happend on all three of the sub-accounts I have spent the last 2 days trying to keep from getting messed up by the 'system'. I think I'll make a fourth and simply let the system screw around with it until it gets tired, but i'll bet it will simply delete it yet again like it did yesterday.


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## mjwagner

espaeth said:


> Do you have search and watch history paused?
> 
> Manage search & watch history - YouTube TV Help
> 
> If you tell Youtube not to save your watch history, that impacts your ability to resume from last playback point because you're telling them not to save that information.
> 
> I'm assuming you went through this process?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Important note: You have to use a consumer Google account for family sharing. If you're trying to use a G Suite or old GApps for Domains account, you can't use family sharing from that account.
> 
> There have been YTTV engineers who have posted about this on Reddit. It's intentionally designed to nudge people away from time-based guide programming selection. They want you to use search and to build a catalog of things to watch. The grand plan for this service is to take the content that is delivered linearly on standard cable/satellite networks and bridge it into a catalog closer to what Netflix offers. That's their market differentiator -- they're not just trying to recreate the same cable/satellite experience over the Internet.
> 
> Any chance you're running Pi-Hole or another DNS filtering service? There are a couple lists that are a bit too aggressive in their Google domain block list, and people have reported some odd behaviors with YoutubeTV with those lists enabled.
> 
> I'm using iOS (iPhone / iPad), AppleTV 4K, Apple TV Gen4, RokuTV, and Roku Stick+. I haven't run into any problems that you've mentioned.


Yeah, YTTV is not trying to recreate the cable/sat experience...and for me personally that's a good thing. If you are looking to recreate your current cable/sat experience YTTV simply might not be for you. I'm not trying to minimize the issues this individual is having. Clearly the service has not met his expectations. But my experience has been the exact opposite, it has been rock solid for me...maybe I'm just lucky.


----------



## espaeth

1948GG said:


> What are you supposed to do when a network or station changes their schedule


It depends on the situation. YTTV is a little different in that they are saving a 24x7 constant stream from every channel that they keep for 9 months. You have to add things to the "DVR" to watch them later because that's how the contracts are structured with the content providers. Since they always have the 24x7 recording to work with, they can adjust the timers retroactively since they are just changing index values of where to start and stop playback.

Say I have the 10pm news added to my library, except one night the news is delayed because the football game before it ran over time. YTTV tracks the game times for all major sports leagues to not only automatically extend recordings, but also to shift index start times for programs that air after it. So even though the football game ran until 10:20, when I select the news from my library I still get the complete 30 minutes of the delayed news cast.



1948GG said:


> what about what I ran into today, when a new program is announced yet since it doesn't exist yet or in the past, you can't add it to your dvr?


This is definitely a gap in the current system. If it's not a popular show on a network, or an event that is in listing going about 2 weeks out, it's currently a gap that you can't find it to add it to your library.



1948GG said:


> After I cleaned up the mess that happened last night while I was asleep, while watching today I saw the 'live guide' channel list change its listing around at least 5 times. Back to the phone app I go and change it back, then an hour later it changes yet again. This happend on all three of the sub-accounts I have spent the last 2 days trying to keep from getting messed up by the 'system'.


That's really weird -- I hope they are able to get that straightened out for you.


----------



## 1948GG

From what both myself and the yttv customer service person saw the other day, a large part of the problems are at the doorstep of google. It seems to have settled down yesterday and so far today, but that doesn't mean I don't run into glitches in the system, like....

Playing dvr selections, either while the program is still being recorded or was completed a week back. After starting up the selection, the audio is out of sync with the video, every time. It seems the only way to 'resync' it is to 'bump' the rewind just a bit and then things are back in sync. This is on the latest f/w 9.2 roku's, roku4 and ultra. On the android app, what one gets is a little auto skip forward and everything is in sync, can't tell in the second it takes before doing that if it's out if sync before the little skip. But it's a kinda dead giveaway that the folks doing the android app saw the sync problem and the quick fix was the 'little skip', but the folks reviewing the roku app (I may be going out on a limb thinking there's any management review going on here) somehow don't see it, or can't fix it. 
Not a BIG problem but interesting that the android app folks saw and put in a quick fix and the roku/streaming console folks didn't.


----------



## mjwagner

Watched all the NFL games last weekend and this weekend on YTTV. It was flawless for me and the PQ was excellent.


----------



## 1948GG

A couple things notable so far; zero buffering, and the video, on both 1080p and 4k sets is particularly way above average (the system is reporting 720p/1080p depending on the channel) but the chroma level has a bit of 'punch' to it that reminded me of the early DirecTV standard definition mpeg2 circa 1994 before they started squeezing the streams to add to the channel count. The resulting video was the best I'd seen out of a station or network studio, and this after it had gone through the entire transmission chain to the home. Their pq wouldn't achieve this level, imho, until mpeg4/ka HD transmissions in the early 2000's


----------



## mjwagner

1948GG said:


> A couple things notable so far; zero buffering, and the video, on both 1080p and 4k sets is particularly way above average (the system is reporting 720p/1080p depending on the channel) but the chroma level has a bit of 'punch' to it that reminded me of the early DirecTV standard definition mpeg2 circa 1994 before they started squeezing the streams to add to the channel count. The resulting video was the best I'd seen out of a station or network studio, and this after it had gone through the entire transmission chain to the home. Their pq wouldn't achieve this level, imho, until mpeg4/ka HD transmissions in the early 2000's


I'm coming over from PSVue which I had been using since leaving D several years ago. So far I find the PQ, UI, DVR usability (particularly trick play which IMO is as good as local), and overall stability even better than PSVue. So far so good.


----------



## grover517

1948GG said:


> From what both myself and the yttv customer service person saw the other day, a large part of the problems are at the doorstep of google. It seems to have settled down yesterday and so far today, but that doesn't mean I don't run into glitches in the system, like....
> 
> Playing dvr selections, either while the program is still being recorded or was completed a week back. After starting up the selection, the audio is out of sync with the video, every time. It seems the only way to 'resync' it is to 'bump' the rewind just a bit and then things are back in sync. This is on the latest f/w 9.2 roku's, roku4 and ultra. On the android app, what one gets is a little auto skip forward and everything is in sync, can't tell in the second it takes before doing that if it's out if sync before the little skip. But it's a kinda dead giveaway that the folks doing the android app saw the sync problem and the quick fix was the 'little skip', but the folks reviewing the roku app (I may be going out on a limb thinking there's any management review going on here) somehow don't see it, or can't fix it.
> Not a BIG problem but interesting that the android app folks saw and put in a quick fix and the roku/streaming console folks didn't.


Sounds a lot like the issue I had with DirecTV and watching at the end of the live buffer and audio would drop or be out of sync. A single jump back fixed it.


----------



## 1948GG

There is one thing on just about all these 'live' services, is the lack of 'live' date/timestamps somewhere up on the title bar (if any). With yttv, the live grid guide is lacking a real time line (red vertical) like psvue had; but on that screen as well as all the rest they seem to think everybody has a wireless phone handy with the date/time in the palm of their hand (just having the time left on a program is nice, but...) Also, it would be better if when highlighting a program either on the grid or elsewhere, that the full(er) program text was shown somewhere without requiring several clicks to bring it up.

And while I'm on that subject, while one is playing a live channel from the guide, then clicks back to the guide, half the time it doesn't go back to the channel listing you were on but returns to the top of the guide. If one is way down the guide and wanted to change channels to one you knew was right close to where you were, what a hassle. Also, they should have a 'channel up/down' in the title/time thing when one presses the down arrow; seems logical to me. Also should list that channel as one presses to jump to a channel. Little user interface things like that can make the service much easier to navigate.


----------



## mjwagner

1948GG said:


> There is one thing on just about all these 'live' services, is the lack of 'live' date/timestamps somewhere up on the title bar (if any). With yttv, the live grid guide is lacking a real time line (red vertical) like psvue had; but on that screen as well as all the rest they seem to think everybody has a wireless phone handy with the date/time in the palm of their hand (just having the time left on a program is nice, but...) Also, it would be better if when highlighting a program either on the grid or elsewhere, that the full(er) program text was shown somewhere without requiring several clicks to bring it up.
> 
> And while I'm on that subject, while one is playing a live channel from the guide, then clicks back to the guide, half the time it doesn't go back to the channel listing you were on but returns to the top of the guide. If one is way down the guide and wanted to change channels to one you knew was right close to where you were, what a hassle. Also, they should have a 'channel up/down' in the title/time thing when one presses the down arrow; seems logical to me. Also should list that channel as one presses to jump to a channel. Little user interface things like that can make the service much easier to navigate.


The way it seems to work is they are very literal wrt the function of the "back" key. So as an example, if you bring up the live guide and page down to a currently airing show (the first tile horizontally) and click on one. Then if you click the back button it will always open the live guide with the program you are watching highlighted (should have the word "playing" on the picture). If you navigate up or down thru the guide (again staying on the first tile) and click on another live show you will tune to that show. If you click on back at this point you will again bring up the guide and it will be on the tile of the show you are watching. However, let's say you are watching a live show and instead of back you click down 3 times and scroll across the current live shows and click on one. You will tune to that show. Now if you click back it actually takes you to the guide but not with the tile for the show you are currently watching highlighted but instead it will be the last show you used the guide to tune to. While I see what they are doing, and it's actually logical, I think it would be more user friendly if it always opened the guide to whatever channel you are currently watching. From my perspective the UI is pretty good but needs some additional tweaking for sure.


----------



## b4pjoe

1948GG said:


> There is one thing on just about all these 'live' services, is the lack of 'live' date/timestamps somewhere up on the title bar (if any). With yttv, the live grid guide is lacking a real time line (red vertical) like psvue had; but on that screen as well as all the rest they seem to think everybody has a wireless phone handy with the date/time in the palm of their hand (just having the time left on a program is nice, but...) Also, it would be better if when highlighting a program either on the grid or elsewhere, that the full(er) program text was shown somewhere without requiring several clicks to bring it up.


I just ask the voice activated remote for the device (either Siri, Alexa or Google) for the time and it displays it on the screen for a few seconds or until I dismiss it.


----------



## mjwagner

1948GG said:


> There is one thing on just about all these 'live' services, is the lack of 'live' date/timestamps somewhere up on the title bar (if any). With yttv, the live grid guide is lacking a real time line (red vertical) like psvue had; but on that screen as well as all the rest they seem to think everybody has a wireless phone handy with the date/time in the palm of their hand (just having the time left on a program is nice, but...) Also, it would be better if when highlighting a program either on the grid or elsewhere, that the full(er) program text was shown somewhere without requiring several clicks to bring it up.
> 
> And while I'm on that subject, while one is playing a live channel from the guide, then clicks back to the guide, half the time it doesn't go back to the channel listing you were on but returns to the top of the guide. If one is way down the guide and wanted to change channels to one you knew was right close to where you were, what a hassle. Also, they should have a 'channel up/down' in the title/time thing when one presses the down arrow; seems logical to me. Also should list that channel as one presses to jump to a channel. Little user interface things like that can make the service much easier to navigate.


For the time...if you are using a FireTV device, when you are watching a live show, or anytime for that matter, press and hold the home key and you will get the quick menu which includes the current time, press the back key to return. Same on the ATV but that menu includes both time and date...


----------



## techguy88

I actually tried out YouTube TV and Philo earlier this month and was very impressed by both services when I was trying to decide what to do about my D* bill.


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## lparsons21

YouTubeTV is offering a 2 week trial, must get it before 2/13/2020.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## TheRatPatrol

lparsons21 said:


> YouTubeTV is offering a 2 week trial, must get it before 2/13/2020


Stupid question, do you have to enter credit card information to do the free trial?


----------



## lparsons21

TheRatPatrol said:


> Stupid question, do you have to enter credit card information to do the free trial?


Yes, or you can set it up using PayPal.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## 1948GG

So, some two months in on using yttv, one of the first screwups I noticed in the programming, that of lack of synchronization between picture and sound on dvr playback (this on roku devices, unknown on others) still exists. To get things in sync, a slight rewind of the stream is needed. Bamtech. There are a ton of other screwups but this is the most noticable, especially if one uses the essentially unlimited dvr massively, which I do. Do I think it will ever be fixed? No. Bamtech.


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## lparsons21

Not seeing that issue on AppleTV4K or Xbox One. But it is sometimes there on Roku.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## espaeth

Also not seeing the issue on AppleTV or LG WebOS.

Side note: BAMtech has nothing to do with YoutubeTV, they are now known as Disney Streaming Services.


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## mjwagner

I don't see this issue on any of the platforms I run YTTV on (FireTV of various types, Nvidia Shield, or ATV 4k). Perhaps it is a Roku specific issue...we don't do Roku.


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## 1948GG

espaeth said:


> Also not seeing the issue on AppleTV or LG WebOS.
> 
> Side note: BAMtech has nothing to do with YoutubeTV, they are now known as Disney Streaming Services.


Just because some company changed their name doesn't mean one wit they actually changed or swapped out all their people, far from it. Don't get fooled, same group of folks that ruined psvue, leading to their eventual collapse. If we get some months into the future and this service fails to correct its problems and then starts adding additional ones, we'll know who to blame.


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## espaeth

1948GG said:


> Just because some company changed their name doesn't mean one wit they actually changed or swapped out all their people, far from it.


I'm not suggesting they changed. DSS/BAMTech current properties are Disney+, Hulu, ESPN/ESPN+, MLB.tv, and NHL.tv.

YoutubeTV is a Google company. The folks working on YoutubeTV are Googlers, they have never had any association with Disney Steaming Services in their current or previous form.


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## B. Shoe

mjwagner said:


> I don't see this issue on any of the platforms I run YTTV on (FireTV of various types, Nvidia Shield, or ATV 4k). Perhaps it is a Roku specific issue...we don't do Roku.


Same here. I feel bad that 1948GG is having so much trouble, but I haven't seen any of the issues reported, and that includes setting up and operating YTTV on Roku devices for my family members.


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## 1948GG

More guide failures on yttv from whomever they have contracted to provide guide data. Several channels changed their lineups starting this weekend, and have been advertising those changes for weeks. A quick check of other services that I know use Tribune Media Services (TMS, owned by Nielson) show the same errors, so it's possible so does yttv. It will take a while to hunt down who they use exactly, but accurate guide data is the bedrock of any service that provides dvr integration.

And as far as Bamtech/Disney Streaming Services, the corporate ownership/history is well documented, and many parts of the corporation retain the Bamtech name. Their programming failures with several clients is also very well documented, and those failures with yttv are repeatable and many have been pointed out by yttv themselves, a quick Google search will bring them up. The only question is will they be addressed in a timely fashion or still be lingering months from now. The 'live guide' problems in particular have been noted by many as a top priority (including yttv itself) so we shall see if any improvements are rolled out in the coming weeks.


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## 1948GG

From the last 2-3 months, yttv's dvr system was very consistant, that when joining a dvr program that was still being recorded, in giving one the option of joining the program 'live' or playing from the beginning.

But all of a sudden today, that option has been removed from the system, it joins the program 'live' only, no option. Yes, one can 'rewind' to the beginning and start playing from that point, but what gives? I had previous noted that if one had been playing a dvr program and then stopped at some intermediate point, and then later returned to that program, if it was still running 'live' one didn't get an option to rejoin from the point you had left it; note this didn't occur if the program had ended and you were playing an older dvr'd program, only one where it was still being recorded. Maybe the programmers are playing around with the code trying to get the system to work better, that's the only thing I can come up with.

Hopefully it isn't two steps back to get one step forward.


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## 1948GG

Trying to bring up a movie I had dvr'd a couple weeks ago, found that using the library, selecting 'movies', and the 'z to a' order, the movie didn't show up (neither under 'recently recorded', 'trending', or 'most popular', but did come up under 'a to z'. Yet another programming failure that should have been easily caught.


----------



## 1948GG

One if the major reasons I selected yttv was the inclusion of pbs in the local dma stations lineup; however, in a few dma's including mine, there are multiple pbs stations, and the programming from the national feed is split between them. The older station does put the programming that runs on the second pbs affiliate on one of it's subchannels ('pbs world' along with 'pbs kids' which of course is carried) so if yttv would carry either the main channel of the second station or the additional subchannel from the first, then folks in that dma would get all the pbs programs. 

So as yttv expands the pbs cities, it would be nice if they reviewed the early additions and bring things up to snuff. I'm in the seattle dma, but as I've lived all over the country over the last 50+ years, there are others that have the same situation.


----------



## 1948GG

First major crash of the yttv system (at least observed) today, around 1pm pacific time for around to 30 minutes +. All live and dvr programs were coming up 'no internet connection' although on demand programs were playing. I had some programs being dvr'd during the fade out, and on going back to them they were hosed, big gaps and such. So apparently the crash affected most of the subsystems.


----------



## 1948GG

Woke up today with yet more guide failures on yttv. Many of them today are on local channels that have program times that have been there literally for years and years (local news). I really haven't had any time to try and track down who they are contracted with since I posted a message about guide problems several days ago. I'll try again today after these recent failures.


----------



## dreadlk

Rich said:


> If you want to call it "on demand", yes. Just like Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime. They don't call their content "on demand" but if it makes it easier to understand...
> 
> Rich


Hey Rich I know we like some of the same Netflix shows and I don't know if you have watched "Locke and Key" yet, but it is pretty good. I am sure you watched "Messiah", that was epic! Now I am going to take a look at Altered Carbon season 2. I loved the first season and am looking forward to this next one. BTW if you have a paid YouTube subscription I highly recommend Cobra Kia. It starts out a little rough but becomes very addictive and just takes me right back to the 1980s.


----------



## 1948GG

Recent reports from 'Cord Cutters' list several features being added to yttv, while major programming errors continue to linger on the platform for several months. This is typical of Bamtechs (yttv's outsourced programming team) way of dealing with deep errors. Ignore it.

Most aggrivating: lack of audio sync when starting playback of a dvr program. Not there all the time but 90+% of the time it is, requiring one to jump back to re-sync things up.


----------



## 1948GG

Latest Bamtech messup: when starting a live dvr program that is ongoing, the system no longer gives you the option to start from the beginning, join live, or join where you previously left off. Unacceptable.


----------



## espaeth

1948GG said:


> when starting a live dvr program that is ongoing, the system no longer gives you the option to start from the beginning, join live, or join where you previously left off.


Strange.

I still get this on AppleTV and my Roku TVs.


----------



## mjwagner

1948GG said:


> Latest Bamtech messup: when starting a live dvr program that is ongoing, the system no longer gives you the option to start from the beginning, join live, or join where you previously left off. Unacceptable.


You need to tell us what platform you are running YTTV on for this to be meaningful since YTTV is not 100% consistent across platforms.


----------



## B. Shoe

mjwagner said:


> You need to tell us what platform you are running YTTV on for this to be meaningful since YTTV is not 100% consistent across platforms.


Agreed with mjwagner. I'm on an up-to-date ATV4K box, and I can't get any of these issues to replicate. I'm not saying he's not seeing them, just tough not knowing what's under the hood.


----------



## 1948GG

This evening the second major system foul up, on both roku and android, channels unavailable both live and home, library appears to work; I was watching a dvr movie and when I exited found the system wa basically hosed. Went to a channel I knew was supposedly being recorded, and although the channel was able to play live, no recording was there.

BAMTECH.

Fyi, when starting or restarting a dvr'd program, the 'start from beginning', 'start from where last left off' (or whatever the actual text is) are missing still. The movie I was watching was able to restart from where I left off, however.

An oh, the sync between video and audio remains out of wack, just as it has for the last months.


----------



## RichardL

I usually have no issues with YTTV on an LG OLED W7 device. Tonight there was a glitch matching the above at around 7pm, pacific. When I turned it on, the last channel I had been streaming was playing, but the guide only offered a generic list of networks, no actual listings etc. No new show could be selected. Also the library showed as empty.

I watched the channel that was playing for around 30 minutes, then hit back to get to the Live guide and everything was back to normal


----------



## lparsons21

Yeah, there was a burp last night. After watching a recording I exited and it showed nothing in my library. Exited the app and restarted and all was good.

His other issues I’ve not yet seen on Xbox One, AppleTV, Roku Premier or FireTV Cube, lip sync issues now and then Roku though.


----------



## 1948GG

Another major issue seems to have reared its head with yttv, that of the disappearance of programs far in advance of the supposed 9 month cut off date. 

Several movies which were recorded off TCM, and were at least partially viewed (so they were 'in the system' at one point) have gone missing. Interestingly, when trying to search for them again, nowhere in the system they could be found. Some of them could be retrieved, or at least their listing, by exiting the app and re-starting, but many are not playable although the listing finally was retrievable. 

This 'effect' has been noted both on movies dvr'd on many channels as well as series (tv) which are shown on several channels. Doesn't as appear to have any rhyme or reason as to the dissapearences, looks to be totally random.


----------



## 1948GG

Cord Cutters reported a few days ago that they had noticed an improvement in picture quality with yttv. With a large amount of bandwidth, a 4k roku paired with a 4k flat screen, I hadn't seen any change until today, on several sources I know are 1080i (nbc/cbs and others). On those 720p (abc/fox/espn etc) it took a bit longer cranking up the eyesight (roku output is upscaled to 4k) to note that it is improved, although not as obvious as the 1080 sources.

Wish there were some live sports channels as they tend to provide the most 'pop's, but everything is shut down at this point. But it has improved.

Exactly what they've done, new encoders and/or increased bit rate, is a question that hasn't been answered. Of the stored program providers (netflix/prime ect) prime has been the leader and the highest bit rate, both for hd and u-HD. I haven't found any article specifying whose encoders yttv has used up until now, so if they changed anything out or installed new firmware in them is a total unknown.


----------



## 1948GG

DVR playback problems are ramping up in the last few days, with a slew of audio drop-outs and video mashups. A TCM movie I had recorded this last week was so bad I had to drop to the VOD version, which played perfectly, so it wasn't the transmission but the DVR system was wacked. Since it is still marked as ADD it should then-record the next time it's shown (many movies have multiple recordings I've noted) so if the system was having problems when that showing (just a day back) I'll see if it was the system or the source, although one would think if the vod played fine it isn't the source.


----------



## 1948GG

Lip-sync on dvr'd programs is getting worse; now maybe I'm sensitive to it, having dealt with digital video since 1987, but previous to the last x months, where the skew was instantly obvious because it was so far out of wack, now a lot of the time the it's well under 1second and takes more than one reverse 'bump' to get things in sync. Now it's possible with a lot of live news feeds coming off Skype or other internet apps that may be feeding into the problem, but so far to my eyes not really; in fact, this current use of all these ways to news gathering may result in the near death of satellite backhauls in the future.


----------



## mjwagner

1948GG said:


> Lip-sync on dvr'd programs is getting worse; now maybe I'm sensitive to it, having dealt with digital video since 1987, but previous to the last x months, where the skew was instantly obvious because it was so far out of wack, now a lot of the time the it's well under 1second and takes more than one reverse 'bump' to get things in sync. Now it's possible with a lot of live news feeds coming off Skype or other internet apps that may be feeding into the problem, but so far to my eyes not really; in fact, this current use of all these ways to news gathering may result in the near death of satellite backhauls in the future.


Their must be some environmental factors at play here. I run YTTV on lots of different devices (FireTVs of various types, Nvidia Shields, and ATV 4ks...we don't do Roku) with several different combinations of TV's, AVR's, sound bars, etc. and I have so far never experienced any lip-sync issues...and I am extremely sensitive to this type of issue. So either I'm just lucky or it is some specific combination of things that causes this problem to manifest itself.


----------



## lparsons21

mjwagner said:


> Their must be some environmental factors at play here. I run YTTV on lots of different devices (FireTVs of various types, Nvidia Shields, and ATV 4ks...we don't do Roku) with several different combinations of TV's, AVR's, sound bars, etc. and I have so far never experienced any lip-sync issues...and I am extremely sensitive to this type of issue. So either I'm just lucky or it is some specific combination of things that causes this problem to manifest itself.


I've seen some lip-sync issues on my FireTV Cube now and then, never on my ATVs, XboxOne or Roku Premier. In fact I've not seen most of 1948GG's issues at all.


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## mjwagner

lparsons21 said:


> I've seen some lip-sync issues on my FireTV Cube now and then, never on my ATVs, XboxOne or Roku Premier. In fact I've not seen most of 1948GG's issues at all.


Interesting, the cube is one of the types of FireTV devices we do not use.


----------



## lparsons21

mjwagner said:


> Interesting, the cube is one of the types of FireTV devices we do not use.


I have the 1st gen Cube. In my efforts to find a one box for all I had considered it and add the Amazon Recast to be the OTA DVR. But my Cube is sluggish, which I could tolerate, but also the video is darker compared to the ATV4K, and lacks 'pop'. So it isn't going to be 'the box' going forward.

The ATV just performs better than any other streaming box I've experienced. Speedy in operation, a simple UI, fairly good integration of various streaming sources with the AppleTV+ app, great video and audio. Just makes it an excellent box. From reading lots of posts all over the place, for the most part all apps for it are the best versions of them. The biggest downside to the ATV is the funky little remote! I just hate that remote. I use either my Harmony Elite or iPhone instead of that remote.


----------



## 1948GG

More stunning screwups by the Bamtech team trying to add the epic channels for the month free view. Completely messed up my custom live grid on all three profiles, I don't know how long it will take to get things back to the way I had them. 

This is the first major strike to move to hulu live. These people all need to go back to programming kindergarten.


----------



## mjwagner

I added all the Epix channels to my custom live guide with no problems at all. Sorry that you are experiencing issues but it doesn't seem like the problem is universal.


----------



## lparsons21

mjwagner said:


> I added all the Epix channels to my custom live guide with no problems at all. Sorry that you are experiencing issues but it doesn't seem like the problem is universal.


His problems are far from universal! I've read in lots of places about YTTV's service and app performance and can find almost nothing listing his list of woes. Gotta wonder why.

Overall it works well, no problem free, but that is pretty much a universal thing that can be said about any streaming service. And if he thinks Hulu+Live is going to be better, well based on lots of reading about it, he's in for a surprise and not a pleasant one.

If I were unhappy with YTTV I would switch to Sling with a bunch of their add-ons, sub to Hulu ad-free and CBS:AA ad free. I've had that exact setup and found it to be very good. Switched to YTTV because of Family Share.


----------



## B. Shoe

1948GG said:


> More stunning screwups by the Bamtech team trying to add the epic channels for the month free view. Completely messed up my custom live grid on all three profiles, I don't know how long it will take to get things back to the way I had them.


I hate to see you having so much trouble with the service, but I still can't replicate anything of the major issues you've brought up. Do you have any screenshots of what happened in your custom grid?


----------



## 1948GG

So the couple of hours spent getting things back in order were wasted, as yesterday the programmers tried to fix their mistakes and yet again things got out of wack and needed to be refixed. Yes, less messed up than the first 'try' (although who knows at this point) so it only took 30 minutes to reset my four rokus. Seems to be holding at this point. 

For those who say 'my appletv/firetv/android box' works perfectly, remember that roku is 55% of the streaming hardware market, has way more apps than any box out there(not just the 'major' streamers) but a boatload of 'thin' apps from small tv and radio stations and the like. There is a reason why the market (the folks buying the things) has spoke, re: 55% of the market. Now firetv points to huge sales in foreign markets like India, probably due to massive ad campaigns and maybe providing the local streamers tech support to get up and running on their platform (press reports say so, but if so I'd say smart move on their part). But here in the US? Not so much. 

Now if one of these folks would figure out a way to combine channels from multiple apps (there are ways to do that on Android and maybe ios). That would be a game changer. 

As far as Bamtech, I have read reports that they check their programming ONLY with Appletv boxes, and no other. If I had such and could verify those reports (some if them going back years), then it would start to make some 'sense'. Maybe.


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## lparsons21

Your problems don’t show up on my Roku Premier either.


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## espaeth

What device are you using to edit the custom guide? 

There are some known problems with ad blocker plugins or DNS solutions like Pi-hole that use a couple different blacklist options (Steven's Black, I think?). It blocks the API calls needed to set some of the values in settings, and also interfered with some of the playback controls. (it has some of the Youtube API URLs misclassified as advertising URLs)

For what it's worth, I can't replicate any of these issues on my RokuTV. I added the Epix channels and set the order using the iPad app, and it shows up the same on the LG WebOS app, the Apple TV app, and the TCL Roku TV we have in a spare room.


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## billsharpe

I haven't noticed any problems at all streaming with my TCL Roku TV set or with AppleTV. I've been using the AppleTV remote for several years and find it works well enough.


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## b4pjoe

I've notice the Youtube free trial has been cut to 3 days from its usual 7 day free trial.When did that start?


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## 1948GG

Still major programming errors that dog yttv. Lip-sync problems with dvr programs are still at the 75+% of times when started; it has changed somewhat in that a fair percentage of time the sync gap is minimal (100-500ms) instead of in the 1-2 second range. Still requires pushing the back button to 'shove' the stream into sync.

Another nasty glitch is joining a dvr program 'in progress'; one should get a 'join live' or 'resume from last watch' or 'start from beginning' prompt, but more often then not you get nothing, and you join live. Unacceptable.

Again, these programming errors show that no review in being done either by the front line programmers or their supervisors. Reminds me of the lack of review that doomed psvue in its last year of operation, by the same company that is contracted by yttv. If you outsource technical services to a third party company and don't watch them like a hawk, you will reap the whirlwind.


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## espaeth

1948GG said:


> Reminds me of the lack of review that doomed psvue in its last year of operation, by the same company that is contracted by yttv.


There shouldn't be any of the same people-related programming problems, because it's completely different people.

BAMTech is now Disney Streaming Services, and they're running the platform for Hulu now. Bob Iger On Disney's Hulu Roll-Up And Streaming Mission: "We're Prepared To Pivot In A New Direction" - Deadline

YoutubeTV is all Youtube employees and internal development (all apps are code signed by GoogleLLC).


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## 1948GG

Total corporate bs.

Now how can I come to that conclusion? Because this company continues to market itself as Bamtech in Europe, where the Disney name has nowhere near the cache that it does in the US, in fact its public perception is somewhere in the low range as Comcast is in the US. 

Did they fire all the programmers and managers that worked on psvue? Doubtful. With all the continuing problems with yttv have they cleaned house yet? No. Why no problems at hulu, that they also are contracted to run? Different division. It's like coming to the conclusion that Buick is making lousy cars but Chevy is great. Where they may run into problems is if the same alternate divisions is making the same engine or transmission and sharing that between divisions. Same thing here if persons are allowed to switch between divisions and the management falls down watching them.

But don't think hulu is immune. Their stored program service had some rough times a few years back, and they demanded Bamtech 'clean shop' or get fired. They did, and it has run smooth ever since.


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## b4pjoe

No offense intended but it seems it is only you having all of these "issues". How can you explain that?


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## espaeth

1948GG said:


> Did they fire all the programmers and managers that worked on psvue? Doubtful. With all the continuing problems with yttv have they cleaned house yet? No.


There has never been a partnership or business relationship between BAMTech (by any of their names from MLB Advanced Media to Disney Streaming Services) and Google/Youtube.



1948GG said:


> But don't think hulu is immune. Their stored program service had some rough times a few years back, and they demanded Bamtech 'clean shop' or get fired. They did, and it has run smooth ever since.


 BAMTech hadn't been involved in Hulu until Disney took ownership in 2019. Prior to that, Hulu had shared ownership between NBC/Universal, Disney, FOX, and Time Warner. Hulu development has historically all been done in-house - they've given a number of presentations at AWS re:Invent conferences (ie: Hulu Case Study ) and publishing a number of opensource projects. Hulu

How Disney Gained Full Control of Hulu-and What That Means

If you're seeing the same problems across these completely independent companies, that probably means it's something more related to your local configuration. These companies use completely different developers, use different content processing solutions, operate out of completely different Content Delivery Networks, etc.


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## grover517

Add me as a YTTV subscriber that can honestly say that I can count on one hand, the number of times in the past 11 months where we have had anything buffer, drop a stream or otherwise fail to perform, period. If we were still with D*, I would have lost our signal due to rain/snow fade more times and for much longer duration's than we have had by a rare second or two of buffering on any of the services or apps we use, and which has occurred long before the likes of Hulu, YTTV, etc. came along. If that wasn't the case, trust me, the wife would have revolted long ago.

We regularly use YTTV (when PSV closed up), Philo, Disney+, CBS AA, Starz, YT, Netflix, Prime Video, HBO GO, Movies Anywhere, VUDU and dozens of TVE apps and they all perform just fine whether we are using our Comcast 200/10 Blast connection at home or a lowly 20MB Centurylink DSL connection at our seasonal RV site.

Honestly, I would have had by far, more instances of signal loss due to numerous reasons if we had stayed with D* than what we have seen since going OTT. I don't want to discount anyone's issues as being insignificant, but if I were having that many issues, I would be taking a much closer look at my own network, streaming devices, ISP, etc. than just categorically blaming a particular streaming service for my woes. But that's just me.


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## Powruser

Just started with YouTube tv thru the app on my LG smart TV. Problem is, everything is playing at 60fps, even movies that should be at 24 fps. It looks smoothed out and terrible. Any ideas?


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## espaeth

Powruser said:


> Just started with YouTube tv thru the app on my LG smart TV. Problem is, everything is playing at 60fps, even movies that should be at 24 fps. It looks smoothed out and terrible. Any ideas?


Trumotion is set per input, so even if you disabled it for one of the HDMI ports that you normally used the apps will turn it back on. For my 2017 LG OLED TV, every app gets treated as its own input, so you have to adjust display settings for each app.

I believe these are the adjustments you want to make: How to turn off the soap-opera effect on your LG TV - LG TV Settings Guide: What to Enable, Disable and Tweak | Tom's Guide


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## Powruser

espaeth said:


> Trumotion is set per input, so even if you disabled it for one of the HDMI ports that you normally used the apps will turn it back on. For my 2017 LG OLED TV, every app gets treated as its own input, so you have to adjust display settings for each app.
> 
> I believe these are the adjustments you want to make: How to turn off the soap-opera effect on your LG TV - LG TV Settings Guide: What to Enable, Disable and Tweak | Tom's Guide


That sir was exactly the issue, thank you.

I had previously disable trumotion, but like you said my LG TV does treat each app as an input.

Thanks again


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## 1948GG

Although over the past half year since the demise of psvue, yttv has performed fairly well, with aforementioned glitches (particularly with the dvr system) continuing throughout with roku boxes. However, the recent rollout by roku of firmware 9.3.0 has been an almost unmitigated disaster, both for yttv and youtube. Stalls, disconnects, skips, you name it, have been the order of the day. One would think that the stored streaming on youtube would be immune but no. All this while the other streaming majors (nf, hulu, prime, disney, and many others) have been unaffected (so far) all the while yttv has been almost unusable at times, stalling on every channel change to the point the only way to regain control is exiting the app, restarting, and then hoping that things will respond after the restart (half the time it simply stalls again trying to load a live or dvr selection). Durin the day, it sometimes gets better, the gets worse. I believe I've tracked it down to the hdmi link 'winking' and the roku box disconnecting and entering an unrecoverable stall where it requires exiting the app to recover. Other streaming apps (nf et al) do this all the time but rarely to the extent that the app becomes unresponsive. What's interesting is that both youtube apps are affected (yttv and youtube) so there must be some programming core in both those apps that the new 9.3.0 doesn't like. 

All this has been reported to roku, but no cure has yet been forthcoming. Folks who have been able to roll back to 9.2.0 report that all the nonsense goes away. Unfortunately, on my units that have been updated, I've been unable to do so.


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## mjwagner

1948GG said:


> Although over the past half year since the demise of psvue, yttv has performed fairly well, with aforementioned glitches (particularly with the dvr system) continuing throughout with roku boxes. However, the recent rollout by roku of firmware 9.3.0 has been an almost unmitigated disaster, both for yttv and youtube. Stalls, disconnects, skips, you name it, have been the order of the day. One would think that the stored streaming on youtube would be immune but no. All this while the other streaming majors (nf, hulu, prime, disney, and many others) have been unaffected (so far) all the while yttv has been almost unusable at times, stalling on every channel change to the point the only way to regain control is exiting the app, restarting, and then hoping that things will respond after the restart (half the time it simply stalls again trying to load a live or dvr selection). Durin the day, it sometimes gets better, the gets worse. I believe I've tracked it down to the hdmi link 'winking' and the roku box disconnecting and entering an unrecoverable stall where it requires exiting the app to recover. Other streaming apps (nf et al) do this all the time but rarely to the extent that the app becomes unresponsive. What's interesting is that both youtube apps are affected (yttv and youtube) so there must be some programming core in both those apps that the new 9.3.0 doesn't like.
> 
> All this has been reported to roku, but no cure has yet been forthcoming. Folks who have been able to roll back to 9.2.0 report that all the nonsense goes away. Unfortunately, on my units that have been updated, I've been unable to do so.


Yikes...! Thankfully no issues here on my ATV 4Ks or any of my Android based streaming devices (Nvidia Shields or FireTV devices of various types).


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## 1948GG

It's been so bad the last 3-4 days I've contemplated moving to firetv but there is too many free streamer apps that are missing on that and the other platforms that I use often enough that it would be missed. That plus I have 4 units I would need to swap out so the cost would be excessive. All i can do right now is hope roku can get its head out of the dark place quick. I can't believe the stalls and skips youtube is experiencing, as I'm sure a large majority of streaming users jump on the app every day.


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## 1948GG

After almost two weeks of really bad service of both youtubetv and youtube, all after the f/w 'upgrade' on roku to 9.3.0, either roku or YouTubetv/youtube made changes that got youtube back running to where it was before on 9.2.0 and youtubetv to better than it has ever been since I switched off of psvue *which had a cornucopia of problems that could never solve in the two+ years I subscribed*, it even seems that the first problem i noticed on day one if subscribing to yttv, the audio lipsync on their dvr service, seems to be solved. This latter problem appeared to be isolated to roku and Samsung hdmi tv's, as other models seemed to avoid it (proscan, visio, and others). Will continue to monitor that, but as I watch almost everything off the dvr, I'll know if it comes back.


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## mjwagner

1948GG said:


> After almost two weeks of really bad service of both youtubetv and youtube, all after the f/w 'upgrade' on roku to 9.3.0, either roku or YouTubetv/youtube made changes that got youtube back running to where it was before on 9.2.0 and youtubetv to better than it has ever been since I switched off of psvue *which had a cornucopia of problems that could never solve in the two+ years I subscribed*, it even seems that the first problem i noticed on day one if subscribing to yttv, the audio lipsync on their dvr service, seems to be solved. This latter problem appeared to be isolated to roku and Samsung hdmi tv's, as other models seemed to avoid it (proscan, visio, and others). Will continue to monitor that, but as I watch almost everything off the dvr, I'll know if it comes back.


Yikes, sounds like Roku users really went thru the ringer. You would have thought that platform would have been a priority.


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## b4pjoe

Youtube TV now has a free two week trial: Cut the cord and try YouTube TV free for 2 weeks. Hurry - offer ends June 14.


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