# HR20-700 HD channels problems



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Hi all,
I have been having some issues recently with an HR20-700. Recently it has lost the ability to display HD channels. If I go to the signal meter, all of my readings are good on all satellites. 86 being my lowest reading. With most in the 90's. (on the 103 and 99)
It just displays a grey screen when I tune an HD channel. If I reboot it, the HD channels come back for a day or two and then the same problem occurs. So I just wrote it off to that receiver might be having hardware problems. 
That particular receiver is also the second farthest receiver (from my swim switch) that I have. 
So recently, I had an HR20-100 fail. It was working fine before the hard drive died (HD was flawless). DTV replaced it with an HR20-700. That location is the farthest from my switch. Well, two days later that "new" HR20-700 is having the same problems as my other HR20-700. Now I am starting to think that this may not be a coincidence as the HR20-100 that was there was fine.

I just swapped one of the HR20-700's with an HR22. But it may take a few days for the problem to re-occur. I wanted to see if distance from the switch plays a role or if the problem follows the receiver. While I wait for a few days, I thought that I should pose this question to this forum.

Has anyone run into anything like this? 

I find it odd that this problem is only affecting my HR20-700's. Nothing has changed on the switch or cabling side for well over a year and both of these locations were displaying HD without issues. (Especially the -100 that was replaced by a -700 from DTV). 


Thanks,
Dino


----------



## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Did you run a system test on the HR20-700?


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Distance to the switch (cable length) is rarely an issue; you should be able to go 125 ft without problems assuming good RG-6. If cable is long enough to show comparatively higher losses between SD and HD channels, you are already into the area where the DC loop resistance is preventing reliable switches (symptom: intermittent channels missing, both SD and HD). If you have SWM, levels are usually equalized regardless of the length, within reason.

Without more to go on it could be either an alignment issue or a switch/cabling/BB filter issue (including the switch in the LNBF).

Swapping cables or DVR positions can tell you a lot regarding health of the distribution; just remember to reboot so that if the cables get moved around the DVR can reorient itself to which cable is which (this is established or reestablished in the bootup).

Losing just HD is a common sign of bad alignment. You must have at least one transponder on the HD sats (99 and 103) that is at least at 96-100 if you have LIL in your market, which you probably do, but poor alignment will still let SD channels through for the most part.

So that is where to start if you are troubleshooting yourself. Try to narrow down what equipment is performing and what isn't, and try to narrow down what channels you get and which you don't. Swap cables, swap equipment, then reassess. Post back.


----------



## MizzouTiger (Jan 10, 2007)

Could it be a bad B-Band Converter?


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Folks,
Sorry I forgot to mention. The diagnostics come up clean (ran them when they lose the HD channels). The only complaint from the diagnostic is that the phone line isn't plugged in.

I also forgot to mention that I have 11 HDDVR receivers. None of the others are having problems. Only my 2 HR20-700s (I have no other HR20-700 receivers). This is why this problem seems odd to me. I can't imagine that cabling is a problem since the cables haven't been touched in years. And in the one location, the previous HR20-100 was working fine (until the hard drive died). When the -700 went in, the HD stopped working about a day or two afterwards. 
I've dealt with dish alignment issues in the past. And that was obvious to diagnose as the signals on the 103 and 99 sats were low. That isn't the case here. 
B-Bands are not the problem as these are connected to swim.

Thanks,
Dino


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I think we need more info to help. Can you describe or explain exactly how your entire system is wired up?


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I think we need more info to help. Can you describe or explain exactly how your entire system is wired up?


I have a swm16 and wb616 running in parallel. I split every incoming coax from the dish and run each output from each split to both the swm16 and wb616. I diplex in OTA after the swm16. 8 of my HDDVRs are connected to the swm switch and 3 are connected to the WB616. 
At each swm connected receiver I diplex out the OTA. The affected receivers are both swm connected.

One other thing I forgot to mention, this problem affects only satellite HD channels. OTA work fine.

Thanks,
Dino


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> I have a swm16 and wb616 running in parallel. I split every incoming coax from the dish and run each output from each split to both the swm16 and wb616. I diplex in OTA after the swm16.* 8 of my HDDVRs are connected to the swm switch* and 3 are connected to the WB616.
> At each swm connected receiver I diplex out the OTA. The affected receivers are both swm connected.
> 
> One other thing I forgot to mention, this problem affects only satellite HD channels. OTA work fine.
> ...


While I don't know why you're having problems with "just HD", you have loaded the SWiM-16 to the max. This means you're using the highest SWiM channels on both legs.
It might be worth looking at the SWM screen [same menu as the SAT levels] and check what the nine channels show.
Since all the SWiM channels are being used, you'll need to have every receiver on signal screen, so each receiver frees up the SWiM channel they're using. If you don't, then you'll read zeros for the channels being used by other receivers.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> While I don't know why you're having problems with "just HD", you have loaded the SWiM-16 to the max. This means you're using the highest SWiM channels on both legs.
> It might be worth looking at the SWM screen [same menu as the SAT levels] and check what the nine channels show.
> Since all the SWiM channels are being used, you'll need to have every receiver on signal screen, so each receiver frees up the SWiM channel they're using. If you don't, then you'll read zeros for the channels being used by other receivers.


Thank. I'll wait for it to fail again and then I will go into the swm signal meter to see the signal levels. Since it is currently working, I don't know that checking now will give me any info. Plus I don't recall which receivers are on swm16 and which are on wb616, so I'd have to go to all 11 and get to that signal meter. I know that I can check for b-bands to see if they are on swm or not, but many of my receivers are hidden in closets, in equipment racks, etc...so it would not be feasible for me to get up to them to check for the b-bands.

Thanks,
Dino


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> Thank. I'll wait for it to fail again and then I will go into the swm signal meter to see the signal levels. Since it is currently working, I don't know that checking now will give me any info. Plus I don't recall which receivers are on swm16 and which are on wb616, so I'd have to go to all 11 and get to that signal meter. I know that I can check for b-bands to see if they are on swm or not, but many of my receivers are hidden in closets, in equipment racks, etc...so it would not be feasible for me to get up to them to check for the b-bands.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dino


While I do understand doing the whole thing could be a pain, it might be worth "just" checking the one with problems.
If it is using the highest channels, then you'll get a reading for on #1 because it's the guide and then 8 & 9, which would show if it's good or weak.
What type/size of splitters do you have and "about" how long is the coax to this receiver?


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dinotheo said:


> Thank. I'll wait for it to fail again and then I will go into the swm signal meter to see the signal levels. Since it is currently working, I don't know that checking now will give me any info. Plus I don't recall which receivers are on swm16 and which are on wb616, so I'd have to go to all 11 and get to that signal meter. I know that I can check for b-bands to see if they are on swm or not, but many of my receivers are hidden in closets, in equipment racks, etc...so it would not be feasible for me to get up to them to check for the b-bands.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dino


If this helps, I have eight 20-700s and none of them has this problem. Why didn't you get another SWiM to replace the Zinwell switch? I have 12 HRs on two SWiM 16s and have no problems.

If you put those 20-700s on, say, the 22-100 coax feeds, do you still see those problems?

Rich


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Rich said:


> If this helps, I have eight 20-700s and none of them has this problem. Why didn't you get another SWiM to replace the Zinwell switch? I have 12 HRs on two SWiM 16s and have no problems.
> 
> If you put those 20-700s on, say, the 22-100 coax feeds, do you still see those problems?
> 
> Rich


Not that this would affect the problem here, but I wonder why the WB616 isn't just being run off the SWiM-16 "legacy" ports, and skip the loss of the splitting of the feeds from the dish, like your second SWiM-16 is.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Not that this would affect the problem here, but I wonder why the WB616 isn't just being run off the SWiM-16 "legacy" ports, and skip the loss of the splitting of the feeds from the dish, like your second SWiM-16 is.


DIY installation perhaps? Seemed kinda strange when I saw the two mixed on one system.

Rich


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Rich said:


> DIY installation perhaps? Seemed kinda strange when I saw the two mixed on one system.
> 
> Rich


If I had to be paying for it, I'd have still used the old switch too because "it works". Maybe the splitters were there from having 2 WB616s before. You did yours with two dishes didn't you?


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> If I had to be paying for it, I'd have still used the old switch too because "it works". Maybe the splitters were there from having 2 WB616s before. You did yours with two dishes didn't you?


Had two dishes before the DECA install. Now I have one.

Rich


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> If I had to be paying for it, I'd have still used the old switch too because "it works". Maybe the splitters were there from having 2 WB616s before. You did yours with two dishes didn't you?


You nailed it. I had 2 WB616's before. I swapped in a swm8 for a wb616 a couple of years back and swapped out the swm8 for a swm16 last year. Back then I had to split and run in parallel rather than hang the wb616 off of the swm because I was also using a separate dish at 95. (international) DTV has since dropped those international channels....so come to think of it, I should be able to quickly re-route my setup to have the swm16 run straight from the dish and then feed the wb616 from the legacy ports. I didn't previously change the cabling because my setup has been running just fine for a while so I didn't want to mess with it.

Also, my DTV home run box is behind the screen of my dedicated HT. It is a permanent screen so I have to remove it to get to the box. So, I get a little lazy if I have to get to it. Maybe a Saturday afternoon project is needed today.

Thanks,
Dino


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dinotheo said:


> You nailed it. I had 2 WB616's before. I swapped in a swm8 for a wb616 a couple of years back and swapped out the swm8 for a swm16 last year. Back then I had to split and run in parallel rather than hang the wb616 off of the swm because I was also using a separate dish at 95. (international) DTV has since dropped those international channels....so come to think of it, I should be able to quickly re-route my setup to have the swm16 run straight from the dish and then feed the wb616 from the legacy ports. I didn't previously change the cabling because my setup has been running just fine for a while so I didn't want to mess with it.
> 
> Also, my DTV home run box is behind the screen of my dedicated HT. It is a permanent screen so I have to remove it to get to the box. So, I get a little lazy if I have to get to it. Maybe a Saturday afternoon project is needed today.
> 
> ...


So, how did you make out? Too lazy? I suffer from laziness too. Not a horrible affliction....:lol:

Rich


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> You nailed it. I had 2 WB616's before. I swapped in a swm8 for a wb616 a couple of years back and swapped out the swm8 for a swm16 last year. Back then I had to split and run in parallel rather than hang the wb616 off of the swm because I was also using a separate dish at 95. (international) DTV has since dropped those international channels....so come to think of it, I should be able to quickly re-route my setup to have the swm16 run straight from the dish and then feed the wb616 from the legacy ports. I didn't previously change the cabling because my setup has been running just fine for a while so I didn't want to mess with it.
> 
> Also, my DTV home run box is behind the screen of my dedicated HT. It is a permanent screen so I have to remove it to get to the box. So, I get a little lazy if I have to get to it. Maybe a Saturday afternoon project is needed today.
> 
> ...


You still have the swim 8? If so, I'd chain that off the swim 16. Get rid of all diplexing, and simply use all the second lines to feed the ota so they are all kept separate. Let's you keep everything more isolated. Plus sets you up for deca someday.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Rich said:


> So, how did you make out? Too lazy? I suffer from laziness too. Not a horrible affliction....:lol:
> 
> Rich


I did actually get around to it. Took me much longer than I would have liked. I had the coax connectors on pretty tight.

So far so good, but it has only been about a day.

I also do still have the swim8. I've been tossing around the idea of replacing the WB616 with it. Chalk that up to, I haven't had time to get around to it. Darn kids.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dinotheo said:


> I did actually get around to it. Took me much longer than I would have liked. I had the coax connectors on pretty tight.


Be really careful with those tight coax connectors. At the base of the coax barrels on the back of the HRs there is what passes for D*'s idea of a lock nut. If that really thin nut is loose and the connection is tight, the barrel will turn and the delicate connector inside the box will break and you'll have to replace the HR. Always best to tighten up that "lock nut" before you put a wrench to the coax connector. And then use two wrenches, one on the lock nut and one on the connector. "Lock nut". Amazing what some companies will do to save a few cents.



> So far so good, but it has only been about a day.
> 
> I also do still have the swim8. I've been tossing around the idea of replacing the WB616 with it. Chalk that up to, I haven't had time to get around to it. Darn kids.


I'd catch that idea you've been tossing around and do it. First, I'd swap it for a SWiM 16. Then I'd have D* enable MRV. You're missing something really good.

Rich


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Rich said:


> Be really careful with those tight coax connectors. At the base of the coax barrels on the back of the HRs there is what passes for D*'s idea of a lock nut. If that really thin nut is loose and the connection is tight, the barrel will turn and the delicate connector inside the box will break and you'll have to replace the HR. Always best to tighten up that "lock nut" before you put a wrench to the coax connector. And then use two wrenches, one on the lock nut and one on the connector. "Lock nut". Amazing what some companies will do to save a few cents.


Oh yeah....I hand tighten at the HR. I wrench tighten at my switches.



Rich said:


> I'd catch that idea you've been tossing around and do it. First, I'd swap it for a SWiM 16. Then I'd have D* enable MRV. You're missing something really good.
> 
> Rich


I've been MRV since the beta days. I am running MRV via "unsupported" ethernet. (No DECA for me yet)

Thanks,
Dino


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dinotheo said:


> Oh yeah....I hand tighten at the HR. I wrench tighten at my switches. I've been MRV since the beta days. I am running MRV via "unsupported" ethernet. (No DECA for me yet)
> 
> Thanks,
> Dino


I had the Ethernet version too, but I think the DECA version is better. Just an opinion.

Rich


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Rich said:


> I had the Ethernet version too, but I think the DECA version is better. Just an opinion.
> 
> Rich


I'd go DECA but I am not willing to spend any more money on HW. I am not sure I am going to stay with DTV for much longer. I've spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on HW and don't want to spend any more in case I change providers.

Thanks,
Dino


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dinotheo said:


> I'd go DECA but I am not willing to spend any more money on HW. I am not sure I am going to stay with DTV for much longer. I've spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on HW and don't want to spend any more in case I change providers.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dino


Got mine put in without charge or I would have stuck with the Ethernet. And they threw in a new 24-500, at no charge.

Rich


----------



## r028806 (Mar 12, 2010)

If I saw this right an HR20-100 was swaped for an HR20-700 in a SWM / MRV installation. Connect the DECA straight to sat in 1 SWM and ditch the splitter and Band stop filter installed. HR20-100 does not pass power like the HR20-700 does on a SWM installation.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Folks,
I made the changes to my home runs as suggested over the weekend. I ditched the splitters and chained the WB616 off of the legacy ports of the swm16. 

Today the issue reared its ugly head again. This is a major reason why I want to leave DirecTV. There is no way that they can help me. I have to figure this out myself. 

Ok...back to the issue at hand. So to recap. I used to have an HR20-700 that would lose the ability to display Satellite HD channels (about a day or two after a reset). I just get a gray screen on satellite HD channels. OTA HD is fine. This was one receiver so I chalked it up to a tuner problem with that specific receiver.
Recently, I swapped a refurbed HR20-700 for a failed HR20-100 in another location. Since the swap that new HR20-700 is now also having this problem where the HR20-100 was not having this problem. 
I also swapped one of those HR20-700 with an HR21-100 to see if the problem would follow the receiver. 

Well today the location that had the HR20-100 (and now has an HR20-700) got that issue. The other room where I had an HR20-700 (and now has an HR21) is working fine. All of my other receivers work fine. In addition, I had forgotten that I actually had another HR20-700 in another guest room. (I know.....I have that many receivers) I fired it up and it too is displaying this problem. The HR20-700 that was moved to another room (swapped with the HR21) is still playing HD just fine. (Not saying it too won't fail, but as of right now it is working)

That is now 3 HR20-700 receivers that are exhibiting the same behavior. Too many for this to be a coincidence in my mind. They are all connected to the swm16. Every other receiver (I have 8 others) is just fine. 

They've been working for quite a while without any issues. This problem has started about a month or two ago. 

The signal strengths are all fine. 

Also, the locations where the HR20-700s failed, also happen to be furthest from the swm16 switch. Ballpark, I'd say they are around 60-75 feet from the swm16. The swm16 is about 70 feet from he dish.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks,
Dino


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

I've moved my 3 HR20-700s around by swapping them with other receivers in my home. The problem is following the HR20-700 receivers, so it is not a cabling problem. It is definitely a problem specific to the HR20-700. 
After looking into this a bit more, it seems to happen after the signal is weak or has broken up. So a few nights ago, I had some rough storms come through. The HD signal across all of my receivers became choppy for a few minutes. After it cleared on all of my other receivers, the HR20-700s never recovered. They eventually either displayed a blank screen on the HD channels, or in some cases they would display a static pixelated picture with sound (only if it was tuned already on an HD channel). Once I change the channel on those I get nothing on the HD channels.
Any help would be appreciated because I know that DTV will most likely not be able to help me. I can't imagine calling them and telling them I want my HR20-700 receivers swapped and having that go smoothly. 
I am so frustrated, that I am about to throw these receivers out the window.

And I am a completely DIY installation. I don't want anyone from DTV coming to my house. The last 3 people they sent over were terrible. 
(1 guy refused to go on my roof and swap an LNB that tech support had diagnosed over the phone and dispatched someone to do)
(next guy came to swap the LNB...he claimed to have swapped the LNB, but my receivers never lost signal)
(1 guy claimed that you cannot have more than 4 receivers on a dish....when I clearly showed him I have 11...meaning 22 tuners)

Thanks.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dinotheo said:


> I've moved my 3 HR20-700s around by swapping them with other receivers in my home. The problem is following the HR20-700 receivers, so it is not a cabling problem. It is definitely a problem specific to the HR20-700.
> After looking into this a bit more, it seems to happen after the signal is weak or has broken up. So a few nights ago, I had some rough storms come through. The HD signal across all of my receivers became choppy for a few minutes. After it cleared on all of my other receivers, the HR20-700s never recovered. They eventually either displayed a blank screen on the HD channels, or in some cases they would display a static pixelated picture with sound (only if it was tuned already on an HD channel). Once I change the channel on those I get nothing on the HD channels.
> Any help would be appreciated because I know that DTV will most likely not be able to help me. I can't imagine calling them and telling them I want my HR20-700 receivers swapped and having that go smoothly.
> I am so frustrated, that I am about to throw these receivers out the window.
> ...


This is beginning to sound like late '06, early '07 when we had problems like yours all over the forum. Can't imagine why the 20-700s would do that.

Rich


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Folks,
I wanted to chime in with some updates. This is a long post...Quick background....I have 11 HDDVRs. 3 of them are HR20-700's and they tend to lose HD signals with regularity. 
It appears as if they don't recover so well when they lose signal thereby necessitating a reboot.
So on one of my 3 HR20-700's, it looks like it recently became stuck on downloading software. I couldn't get by this. So I am thinking yay, I get to swap out one of my HR20-700's.

I call in and get transferred to case management. The lady insists on having someone come to my home to diagnose my troublesome HR20-700's. I insist otherwise since it is ALWAYS a waste of my time when DirecTV sends someone to my house. I've done all of my own wiring and purchased everything myself. I know my setup better than any of them. The only thing I won't do is go up to the Dish. I also told her that I've grown tired of maintaining my own equipment. I lose HD ALL the time. The other receivers all seem to be ok when I get signal back but the HR20-700's just don't recover. I mentioned that I don't know that I will be with DirecTV for much longer. (Not a scare tactic, nor an attempt to get any freebies....I just want reliable TV service)

So, I explain the situation and told her for now, let me just get that dead HR20-700 swapped and we'll go from there. I told her specifcally that I do NOT want OTA. I did this figuring that they'd send me an HR21/22/23. She concurred. I even had her double check when before I hung up that I don't want OTA. She also said what I've seen on forums. They can't specify what replacement receiver gets sent, but if you ask for OTA you'll get an HR20.

So, as you probably guessed, a friggin HR20-700 shows up at my house. I was pretty livid. Since I had an unresponsive receiver I needed to get it swapped I went ahead and activated it. When I went to the room to swap the bad receiver, it was still stuck that the software download screen. I was able to get to the signal strength menu page. There were a bunch of zeroes on 101. They were randomly spread out, it wasn't all odd or even transponders. Also, if for example a transponder were zero on the first pass, it may then jump to 95 on the next pass. So it looked like a bad tuner. I swapped in the replacement HR20-700 and it too had the same exact problem. So now I am worried that something may be screwy with my setup. 

I went down to my home runs and swapped cables at the SWS-4 splitter (coming off of the SWM-16) with an HR22 at another location. When I did so the HR22 was still showing good signal strength while the new HR20-700 was having issues still. Just for the heck of it, I moved the HR22 up to where my replacement HR20-700 is and it had solid signal strength. How is this possible? To rule out a fluke I connected the HR20-700 back and it had sporadic zeroes. Then I put the HR22 back and it was good. I am at a complete loss. I am quite sure that it isn't cables. I have 2 coax runs to this particular room and I tried both cables. (For those that want to know why I am using SWM with 2 coax runs....I plan to go into my attic and swing one of the coax cables over to another bedroom)

Last thing I tried (since I have 2 coax runs) is that I moved the 2 coax runs for that room onto the WB616 switch. (Actually I moved 1, the other was unplugged). On the WB616 switch I get solid signal levels. So it looks like at this location an HR20-700 cannot be used with a SWM switch. Previously I had an HR20-100 there that worked flawlessly. 


Now my other 2 HR20-700s show consistent signal strength. I just checked them. Actually they had lost HD and I had to reboot them. Sigh!!!

I am at a loss since I know that DirecTV won't be able to help me. 


One last thing that I will note, I wonder if this HR20-700 that is now on the WB616 will also continue to lose HD signals like the other HR20-700's (which are both on the SWM switch)




P.S. This is an unnecessary addon to my post. It is insight into the reason that I no longer want DirecTV techs at my house. These are the people they've sent to my house over the last 3 years to diagnose problems on the HD channels. These problems have only happened on Ka band HD. Back when DTV still had HD channels on the Ku band sats, I'd never lose them.


- One tech (I wasn't home for this one) said that he found my problem. My coax connections at the grounding block were not weather proofed. Odd....since I was 99% sure that they were. I come home to find out that he put rubber boots on the grounding block for....my OTA....what a doofus. I had issues with my HD and I had a 3lnb dish. I would not have 1 friggin coax cable coming into the house. Ggggrrrr!!!

- DTV upper level support wanted to swap my lnb. The first tech that shows up refuses to go up on my roof. It was springtime and sunny, but he refused to go up.(Now granted my dish is really high up on my roof)

- Second tech goes up and I can see he is leary. He begrudgingly agrees to go up. I sit in my family room and had the TV on. 10 minutes later he comes in and tells me he is done....here is the kicker. I never lost signal. So he lied to me. 

- Still on the diagnosing my HD problems. Another tech comes and tells me that DirecTV doesn't support my setup and left. He saw my split signals coming from my Dish that were run to parallel switches and refused to even help. 

- Another tech came and told me that he had no idea how to connect that many receivers. I took him down and explained how it was done. At least this guy was nice and really wanted to learn.

- The last tech that came I was able to convince to re-align my dish since my 99 and 103 signals were between 75-85. He got them better, now they are between 80-92. Since that guy was here, losing HD has gone way down. He said that he couldn't any better since the adjustment screws were all the way to the end. If I wanted any better, they'd have to remove the dish and re-install it and the way he explained it, I could tell that he wasn't going to do this. I guess I should have told him I'd be willing to tip him $100 to do it. I am that desperate for reliable TV.


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Dino, you have a very elaborate setup. It will be more susceptible to switch and DC problems than a normal system. If you have a STB that is sending out marginal DC back to a switch or LNBF, it may not be always reliable. As the switch or LNBF ages it may become less reliable. These are issues that you won't see often in a normal setup, but in yours it is not that surprising, as there are a lot of opportunities for DC to fall below the margins with this much cable on the house.

Especially since you are "DIY", as you say. I know a lot about this sort of thing, but even I would leave that to the real experts who do this for a living every day, at least for a hookup with 11 DVRs.

And you probably don't want to hear this either, but you have to pay to play. It could easily cost you a couple of hundee or better and a number of trips from techs to really iron out your problems. 11 DVRs would be pretty daunting for all but the most savvy truck monkey out there. You might have to kiss a few frogs until you find that prince.

You could go to DISH, but again, this setup under DISH will be costly, and frankly I don't think they are as well equipped as DirecTV to handle it. Creating this system is a major project, and troubleshooting this system is a major job. You might be asking too much for an easy solution to this; I don't think there is one. Were I in this situation I would work this out with tech support, climbing further up the ladder as need be, but I would expect the solution to be not quick or easy, and not even guaranteed.

"Signal levels are fine" has to be quantified; a switch problem has nothing to do with signal levels, and the complete loss of certain transponders at times points to a DC routing issue.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> Folks,
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dino


Seems like there is still a lot of info missing, but if you have second coax to some locations, as posted, "you do know" that ALL unused ports/coax must be terminated, right?
Not doing so can cause really strange things.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

I had no terminators on the SWM 16 as the 2 sws4 splitters I had coming off of each port was fully populated. Now that I moved this new HR20-700 off of the SWM16 and onto the WB616, I terminated that connector on the splitter. There are no ports terminated on the WB616. I've never terminated ports on those old multiswitches and I've never had problems with them. I am not too worried about that as I am not having issues with any receivers hanging off of that WB616.

What has me completely stumped is that this problem is only affecting the HR20-700s. I have 3 and actually 4 if I include the replacement that DirecTV just sent me. Every other receiver works fine. No issues with the receivers. Now, I may lose HD every now and then, but I think that has more to do with the signal levels on the 99 and 103 sats. (I'd say averaging 85)

This one particular location that had a replacement receiver is a good example of why this has me confused. I take an HR20-700 plug it in, and it has issues with getting zeroes on random transponders. I take an HR22-100 put it in the same location and I have signal on all transponders and I have no issues. (I never had issues at that location as I previously had an HR20-100 there without a single problem.) I put a different HR20-700 in the same spot and I have zeroes on some transponders. Plug the HR22-100 back in, and I am good.

I "convert" that location to WB616 (with B-band converters) and now the HR20-700s get a solid signal on all transponders. 

So after all of the troubleshooting that I've done, this problem seems to not only be an HR20-700 problem, it seems to be an HR20-700 on the SWM16 issue.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

The HR20s that I've had work fine on SWiM, and there haven't been a lot of posts about them having problems either.

The WB616 shouldn't have open ports terminated, but the SWiM is a different animal, since it's sending RF out, where the WB616 has to first be switched with voltage before it sends anything out.

85s aren't great, but shouldn't be a problem either.

Have you ever looked at the SWM screen? It's in the same menu as the SATs, but [duh] is labeled SWM.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

My HR20-700's have been fine on SWM as well. It is only in the last few months that they've started acting like this. 
I've actually got a terminator on one of the ports of my WB616. Could this be causing an issue? The WB616 is cascaded off of the SWM16. The terminator is there because that port is bad and I wanted to have it there to let my future self know not to plug anything into it. Easy fix. I can put a plastic cap on that port instead of a terminator.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> My HR20-700's have been fine on SWM as well. It is only in the last few months that they've started acting like this.
> I've actually got a terminator on one of the ports of my WB616. Could this be causing an issue? The WB616 is cascaded off of the SWM16. The terminator is there because that port is bad and I wanted to have it there to let my future self know not to plug anything into it. Easy fix. I can put a plastic cap on that port instead of a terminator.


As long as it's an output, it shouldn't matter.
The WB616 off the SWiM-16, "should rule out" most of the dish/LNB/cables to the SWiM-16, or the WB616 would have the same problems.
This suggests "whatever" the problem is is between the SWiM and the receiver.
How much coax [how long] is there?
You can only have ~30 dB of loss counting the splitter, before you're borderline on power to the receiver. [the SWiM screen might show this]


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> As long as it's an output, it shouldn't matter.
> The WB616 off the SWiM-16, "should rule out" most of the dish/LNB/cables to the SWiM-16, or the WB616 would have the same problems.
> This suggests "whatever" the problem is is between the SWiM and the receiver.
> How much coax [how long] is there?
> You can only have ~30 dB of loss counting the splitter, before you're borderline on power to the receiver. [the SWiM screen might show this]


The most troublesome location is the furthest from the switch. I would guess that the coax run is around 75'. The cable is RG-6 quad shielded. The SWM shows a signal strength of 100 on the first "transponder" with the HR22. With the HR20-700 it is 95.

Thanks


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> The most troublesome location is the furthest from the switch. I would guess that the coax run is around 75'. The cable is RG-6 quad shielded. The SWM shows a signal strength of 100 on the first "transponder" with the HR22. With the HR20-700 it is 95.
> 
> Thanks


So what you're really seeing isn't strength but quality [carrier to noise ratio]
100 verse 95 isn't enough to be an issue.

How many tuners do you have on this leg of the SWiM? [yeah only eight total can be].
Depending on the boot order, the "TPs" [they're really the SWiM channels] get assigned.
What you're seeing with "9" is #1 is the guide data [common to all receivers] and then #2-9 are used by each tuner.
"Zeros" on one receiver's screen means these are being used by other tuners.

"The problem" DVR could be using the highest channels.

To tell which receiver is using what channel. you need to start with all the receivers on the setup screen, and there shouldn't be any zeros.

Then as each receiver exits the setup menu, it will take a channel or two, which you can see on the other receivers still on the setup screen as they'll show zeros for the channels being used.
As each receiver exits the setup menu more zeros will show on those still showing the screen.
Hope I've made some sense here :lol:


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> So what you're really seeing isn't strength but quality [carrier to noise ratio]
> 100 verse 95 isn't enough to be an issue.
> 
> How many tuners do you have on this leg of the SWiM? [yeah only eight total can be].
> ...


I had eight tuners on that leg. (4 HDDVRs) Now there are 6 tuners since I moved that HR20-700 to the WB616.

I'll try to get some time to further troubleshoot. At a minimum through my experience, do we believe that the HR20-700 has an inferior tuner to the other HDDVR's?


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Another thing I've noticed through this excercise. For OTA, the AM21 tuner is far superior to the tuner in the HR20s.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> do we believe that the HR20-700 has an inferior tuner to the other HDDVR's?


Not sure which "other" but the HR22 more than likely has the same tuner chip.
It isn't uncommon for tuners to have "slight" variations in sensitivity, but I doubt [and haven't heard of] the HR20s having "inferior".

Yes the AM21 does have a better tuner than the HR20 for OTA.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Not sure which "other" but the HR22 more than likely has the same tuner chip.
> It isn't uncommon for tuners to have "slight" variations in sensitivity, but I doubt [and haven't heard of] the HR20s having "inferior".
> 
> Yes the AM21 does have a better tuner than the HR20 for OTA.


This morning before work I swung the coax in this troubled location back to the SWM16. I tried another HR20-700 and it too was having random zeroes on the signal strength screen. I also tried 2 different HR21. Both worked just fine. This makes it 3 different HR20-700 with this issue at that location. 
Receivers without problems at this location include an HR22, HR21, HR23 and I had n HR20-100 there before its hard drive died.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> This morning before work I swung the coax in this troubled location back to the SWM16. I tried another HR20-700 and it too was having random zeroes on the signal strength screen. I also tried 2 different HR21. Both worked just fine. This makes it 3 different HR20-700 with this issue at that location.
> Receivers without problems at this location include an HR22, HR21, HR23 and I had n HR20-100 there before its hard drive died.


What would be helpful is to get an idea of the highest SWM channels at this location.
The HR23 does use a different SAT tuner chip, but the HR20/21/22 should be the same chip.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Update:
DTV sent me 3 HR24-500s to replace my HR20-700s. I got them all setup and now I have a new problem. 

The HR24 seemingly randomly throughout the day will lose all signal on the 99 satellite. When this started to occur, I changed my switch setup. I went form cascading the WB616 off of the legacy ports of the SWiM16 to splitting the incoming coax from my slimline dish. So each switch is running off of a split from the dish (rather than cascaded)

This is happening on all 3 HR24 receivers and ONLY the HR24 receivers. I've been watching the signal strength screen for a while. My 99 signals are all in the mid to upper 90's (on the HR24s, on the other receivers 99 signal strength is in the mid to upper 80s). 
All of a sudden, without warning the HR24s will start to get 0's. This may occur for about a minute and then the signals are back. I've run to all 3 HR24 receivers and they are all doing the same thing. 2 of the HR24s are on the WB616 and 1 is on the SWiM16. This is not weather related as it is happening right now and there isn't so much as a cloud in the sky.

I am so frustrated right now that I don't know what to do. DTV has offered to come out and replace or move my dish. (in effect replacing the LNB). If they do, should I ask them to run new coax? Right now I have RG6 running from my dish. Do they use RG6 quad shield now? I can't vouch for the quality of the coax from the dish. When that cable was first installed, (2003) it was done by a completely clueless guy who owned the company with his brother. I had a 3lnb dish for which he only peaked the 101 satellite. 119 and 110 was not coming in. He also wanted to charge me for the cable install (this was a movers program install). When I moved up to a slimline dish they used the same cable. 

From the day I moved to the slimline dish I have been having sporadic issues with Ka band satellites. Lately they've become worse. Over the years:
- I've had the lnb replaced 
- New compression fittings put on. That installer showed me how bad the connectors were put on from the previous guy. He brought down the connectors he cut off and the white dielectric core was black at the connector from weather exposure. 
- Replaced switches, from one WB68 to another WB68, to a WB616.
- Various other things I can't recall right now. If I remember the only constant has been the 4 coax cable runs from the dish.

But why is this only affecting the HR24s? I am sure that this is related to the problem I was having with the HR20-700s.

Again, this is only on the HR24s. When they hit 0's on the signal strength the 
other receivers are just fine.


Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Maybe a grounding issue too? Not sure, that's a tuff one. I'd say it can't hurt to replace the coax front he switches to the dish, but I don't think the cascade would be the cause unless the swim 16 is bad. Do you know if the coax is run next to electrical lines, and if the dish is properly grounded? In fact I'd go back to the cascade.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Maybe a grounding issue too? Not sure, that's a tuff one. I'd say it can't hurt to replace the coax front he switches to the dish, but I don't think the cascade would be the cause unless the swim 16 is bad. Do you know if the coax is run next to electrical lines, and if the dish is properly grounded? In fact I'd go back to the cascade.


Woah....I am hoping you are on to something. My dish is not grounded. I remember when the installer was here that he didn't install a grounding block. I asked him about that and he said it wasn't necessary. So the coax does a drip loop and then straight into my house.

I could install a grounding block, but after the thousands of dollars that I've spent on DTV equipment (and I have protection plan) maybe I'll let them do that. In the meantime, my switches are near (about 18 inches) my electrical panel. Would it suffice to ground the switches? I can run a ground wire over to the chassis of my electrical box in no time.

I am not sure that my OTA is grounded either. Can I ground that to my electrical box as well? (My OTA is in my attic)

Thanks,


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> Woah....I am hoping you are on to something. My dish is not grounded. I remember when the installer was here that he didn't install a grounding block. I asked him about that and he said it wasn't necessary. So the coax does a drip loop and then straight into my house.
> 
> I could install a grounding block, but after the thousands of dollars that I've spent on DTV equipment (and I have protection plan) maybe I'll let them do that. In the meantime, my switches are near (about 18 inches) my electrical panel. Would it suffice to ground the switches? I can run a ground wire over to the chassis of my electrical box in no time.
> 
> ...


You should definitely have your stuff grounded. Personally, the first thing I'd do if possible is move everything as far away from the electrical panel as possible. All that electrical panel can do is cause problems. You analyst have weird grounding problems with circuits your hrs are plugged into that can cause issues. It's very rare, but we have seen a case or two. I'd call DirecTV and tell them to come out, that you just realized your stuff was never grounded, and your having all these issues. As you said, you pay for the plan, you should just use it. The smart thing is have an idea of what to look for and your getting that by coming here! 

Make sure your switches power isn't plugged into a circuit with a fridge or heater on it or something like that as well.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> You should definitely have your stuff grounded. Personally, the first thing I'd do if possible is move everything as far away from the electrical panel as possible. All that electrical panel can do is cause problems. You analyst have weird grounding problems with circuits your hrs are plugged into that can cause issues. It's very rare, but we have seen a case or two. I'd call DirecTV and tell them to come out, that you just realized your stuff was never grounded, and your having all these issues. As you said, you pay for the plan, you should just use it. The smart thing is have an idea of what to look for and your getting that by coming here!
> 
> Make sure your switches power isn't plugged into a circuit with a fridge or heater on it or something like that as well.


It looks like DTV is finally helping me out. For years I have been having issues and I've been left to fend for myself. They sent me 3 HR24's without me even asking for them and they've offered to come out and put up a new dish.

I just double checked and actually the WB616 was grounded. I ran a ground wire over to the SWiM16 just to be sure.

Unfortunately, I can't move my stuff away from the electrical panel. It is stuck there. That is where all of my home runs are located. (network and coax)
Now that you mention it, the plug where my switches are plugged into is my GFCI circuit. On that same circuit (in the garage) is a 2nd fridge. I'll have to look into plugging the switches into another circuit. (This will take some time)

As for the antenna, can I just plug the incoming coax into a grounding block and ground that to my electrical panel. (This antenna is in my attic) The coax for that runs through the house.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Ok i just reread the whole thread. Honestly, the grounding could be an issue, but I think you really have one of two ways to go about figuring this all out. 

1. Assuming you have the time and patience the first is troubleshooting what you already have. I'd unplug ever single receiver except the one that gives you the most trouble, only have the swim 16 hooked up and run the coax strait from the one unit that your leaving hooked up to the swim and see what happens. If your still having the issue, I'd then disconnect that hr and connect a different hr from your next most troublesome location. If your still having the trouble after that, it would tell me that your issue likely lies in the swim, or the dish, or something in between the dish and swim.

The biggest problem is the size of your setup creates so many variables, after you get done simply looking at screens, it's sometimes easier to tear down your system and test each piece of it one at a time to see if you can see any issues one at a time. If you can, then obviously you can narrow down the issue to only the truly common factors. If the issue is only in one place, then it is likely that one place is causing issues not just for itself but for others as well.

Option 2, have dtv come out and replace the dish (make sure it happens this time) and the wiring to the switches, and add the grounding block, and relocate the switches a little further away from your electrical panel if possible. 


If that doesn't solve the issue, then also replace the switches.

If that doesn't solve the issue, then also replace the runs of coax to the trouble locations.

Yes this route means you could end up having more than one service call, but you wouldn't be having to do all the work. 

This method is somewhat methodically just replacing everything that could be causing your issues. Vos can tell you for sure, but I believe as your system gets more and more complex to the point of where yours is, there is less and less room for any kind of hardware and installation errors in your system without it causing bigger and bigger signal issues.



No matter what I'd also remove the wb616 and go with the swim 8 cascaded off the swim16.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> It looks like DTV is finally helping me out. For years I have been having issues and I've been left to fend for myself. They sent me 3 HR24's without me even asking for them and they've offered to come out and put up a new dish.
> 
> I just double checked and actually the WB616 was grounded. I ran a ground wire over to the SWiM16 just to be sure.
> 
> ...


Grab an extension cord and plug the switches into it and plug that extension cord into a circus that has little to nothing on it that you use just to test it out. If that fixes all your issues, you might be able to over come the issue with a surge protector that has " noise filtering" capabilities. You can usually find those for between 80 to 100 to start. It might be worth a shot if you don't have other plugs around n different circuits.

Id Do that before worrying abut anything else.

By the way, are you still diplexing ota into your sat lines that come off the wb616?


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> No matter what I'd also remove the wb616 and go with the swim 8 cascaded off the swim16.


Actually, I just cascaded a SWiM8 off of the WB616 because I was planning to get an HR34. 
So as it stands right now, I am splitting the incoming coax runs and have them going to a WB616 and a SWiM16. From the WB616 I've now cascaded a SWiM8. Right now there is nothing connected to the SWiM8 (and it is actually is powered off).

Was my original installer just BS'ing me by telling me that grouding the switch (at the time I had 1 eagle aspen 22Khz switch....ahhhh the old days) was the same thing as using a grounding block?

I'd love to move my panel, but I really have no choice. And I actually am closer than I mentioned. I went back to pay attention and my panel with my coax home runs is all of 6 inches from my electrical panel. I have no choice because I've finished that room and I've got an opening cut to expose the electrical panel and my networking and coax panels. Since that room is finished, the panels are "stuck" there.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> Actually, I just cascaded a SWiM8 off of the WB616 because I was planning to get an HR34.
> So as it stands right now, I am splitting the incoming coax runs and have them going to a WB616 and a SWiM16. From the WB616 I've now cascaded a SWiM8. Right now there is nothing connected to the SWiM8 (and it is actually is powered off).
> 
> Was my original installer just BS'ing me by telling me that grouding the switch (at the time I had 1 eagle aspen 22Khz switch....ahhhh the old days) was the same thing as using a grounding block?
> ...


As far as I know, grounding the switches is the same thing. Vos?

Six inches? Yikes.... I'm trying to think how you could shield that. For future reference, always keep low voltage and rf as far away and as perpendicular as possible to high voltage when crossing as you can. Helps avoid interference issues.

Really, I'd start with the circuit being the same as the fridge. One step at a time, and thats the one that is screaming at me as the first thing to check.

If you get an hr34 are you having them install it? If so, have them replace your swim8 and wb616 with a second swim16 cascaded off the other swim 16 and you can do some load balancing that way too, and leave a channels or two free on all the swim ports. This may help with what vos was talking about if you are having frequency problems on some of the higher swim channels.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Sigh....as soon as I finished my last post, it looks like I lost the 99 satellite again on my HR24s. HR21s are chugging along just fine. 

One more note. The HR24 receivers were placed in different locations than the previous locations where I had the HR20-700 receivers that were giving me problems. All 3 of the HR24 receivers are in locations where I had HR21s that were not having the major problems.

I guess, I can always also test by using barrel connectors and plugging one of the HR24 receivers that is having problems directly into the dish. One of the ones connected to the WB616 so I wouldn't have to run satellite setup again. The problem with that is that this issue is sporadic.

Also, just to add some more info.....I was having issues with Ka band satellites since day 1. But this issue which seems to have affected only my HR20-700 (and now the HR24-500) seems unique compared to the other issues that I've been battling. My wife states that this new issue occurred suddenly one night a few months ago. We had an HR20-700 in our bedroom and she'd go to sleep before me and watch TV in bed. Since I never really watched TV on an HR20-700, I never noticed it until recently. So maybe the sudden onset of this problem might be some sort of equipment failure. But the part that has me perplexed is that it only affects certain receivers. If everything were having problems than I'd feel better about diagnosing the problem. I also have a WB68. I can swap the WB616 for that. But this problem is happening on receivers connected to the SWiM16 as well as the WB616.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

I may be onto a pattern here. I didn't mention anything earlier because I wasn't sure. I installed the HR24s on Friday afternoon/evening. Friday evening, I don't recall any HD loss. Saturday during the day I was losing HD (satellite 99). Saturday night all is good. Sunday during the day, losing HD. And so far since the sun went down, I haven't lost HD. I didn't really keep very close tabs on the time of day previously, but tonight I am keeping a close eye on things. 

I recall reading something a while back where this exact symptom would indicate a bad lnb. The heat from the sun would cause it to malfunction. I am keeping my hopes up. Unfortunately, I can't keep tabs on the daytime hours during the week as I am at work. I can keep tabs on the evening hours.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

As I said earlier, you have a very complex system. It could be one thing, or it could be several, that one by itself wouldn't cause the issues, but compound a couple tiny issues and you have actual issues...


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Folks,
I will continue to post to this thread until I get a fix. If for no other reason than for archival purposes so that this might help someone else in the future.

So much for this problem happening during the day. It is evening now and it is happening. Although it is going on for a good long while. 

I have been dealing with Case Management and as disappointed as I have been with DirecTV's customer service, the Case Management folks really make up for all of that. They want to send a tech out to my home. They assure me that Case Management has their own techs and they are the best of the best. The person on the phone assured me that while I have a lot of receivers, the case management techs have dealt with customers with more receivers than me. (So there are others out there like me?  )

As this problem is occurring on all of my HR24s right now, I decided to run a system test. Not surprisingly it came back with my Dish needs realignment. I'd expect this since the 99 satellite signals are all 0. For giggles I ran a system test on an HS22 that is functioning just fine and it too came up with an error that my Dish needs realignment. That's interesting. 

I'll run another system test once the receivers recover. Which is odd, since I haven't had the HR24s out this long. (Going on 20 mins now)


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> Folks,
> I will continue to post to this thread until I get a fix. If for no other reason than for archival purposes so that this might help someone else in the future.
> 
> So much for this problem happening during the day. It is evening now and it is happening. Although it is going on for a good long while.
> ...


If I was a tech, the first thing I'd do is replace your lnb.

Then I'd replace all your switches with two new swim16s cascaded off each other.


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

dinotheo said:


> ...I've been watching the signal strength screen for a while. My 99 signals are all in the mid to upper 90's (on the HR24s, on the other receivers 99 signal strength is in the mid to upper 80s).
> All of a sudden, without warning the HR24s will start to get 0's. This may occur for about a minute and then the signals are back. I've run to all 3 HR24 receivers and they are all doing the same thing. 2 of the HR24s are on the WB616 and 1 is on the SWiM16....Right now I have RG6 running from my dish. Do they use RG6 quad shield now? I can't vouch for the quality of the coax from the dish. When that cable was first installed, (2003) it was done by a completely clueless guy...


Quite obviously, none of us have a sure indication of what the problem here is, including me. But it sure doesn't sound like a reception problem. It also does not seem like a grounding problem; systems that are ungrounded work just fine; the grounding is needed more for safety and liability and rarely can it affect reception or operation.

I still lean to this being a DC problem. You have 11 DVRs and multiple switches, and the loop resistance possibilities are high. If the entire path one way through RG-6 is 125 ft, the possibility is even higher. If a signal goes from mid 90s to 0 that could easily be an indication that the switch is not getting the proper DC levels from the receiver, whereupon it either does not switch properly or drops the signal out completely. Also, different models of receivers could have slightly different DC levels or level susceptibilities, which could explain how you are able to track certain problems to certain models. Lastly, the level readings are arbitrary numbers; 95 on one model may be equivalent to 100 on a different model.

Shielding on coax is there for an RF circuit return path but is primarily there to prevent signal interference ingress and signal egress. While shielding is important for cable, it is not really that important for L-band distribution, and that is because cable competes with signals at the same frequencies while L-band does not. This means that poorly-shielded cable will work just fine, generally speaking, on DBS distribution. And quad shielding won't buy you very much.

Except, in the area of DC loop resistance, which again might be exactly where your problem lies (another area where shielding helps is in L-band distribution where there are multiple cables over long runs butted up next to each other, which means they can interfere with each other to a degree if poorly shielded). IOW, if you replace a significant amount of poorly shielded coax with well-shielded or even quad-shielded coax, that will decrease the DC loop resistance and allow your switches to be more reliable in a system such as yours that may be susceptible to this very problem. It certainly couldn't hurt, so replace the coax you suspect if you can, just to help eliminate it as an issue. But don't be surprised if it also cures your problems.

Since it was a rogue install, are you even sure the guy didn't sub cheaper RG-59? '59 will work just as well, that is if the path is 80-90 feet or less. It has a higher DC loop resistance and a greater signal loss per foot, which is what limits it to shorter distances. It is also not as hardy as RG-6 and does not hold up to weather, time, or abuse as well.

If you are trying to make this very complicated system work reliably, replacing the coax with better-grade coax might be a place to start. Coax sits in the sun and degrades over time, and poor coax degrades faster, so even if replacing it does not cure your problems it will extend the life of this large and complex system you seem invested in long-term, and would not be without benefit.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Thanks TomCat. 
The case management technician will be over my house tomorrow. I am going to see if he can move my dish and run new coax. At a minimum I want to have the 99 and 103 satellite peaked. I always wanted those a bit higher. (on most of my receivers those satellites are mid 80's...I'd like to see them in the 90's....for some reason on the HR24 receivers those sats are in the mid 90's)

Case management told me on the phone that the technician will do whatever I want to make me happy. I am not a demanding person and actually quite laid back so hopefully he can work with me. If he moves my dish and runs new coax, I'll be sure to take care of him.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

OMG!!!! Case management swore to me up and down that I'd get an expert. I didn't want someone to come out for this exact reason. They have no clue.
The guy that showed up is completely clueless. He saw my home runs where my switches are located and proceeded to tell me that my setup is unsupported. 
Here are some of his gems....
- The WB616 is not supported. (Ok maybe I will buy this)
- DirecTV does not allow OTA to be diplexed in.
- The WB616 will not work properly with HD if I have multiple switches (Huh?)
- The SWS-4 splitters I have coming off of the SWM16 are not supported (what a load of bs)
- I need a second dish for all of my receivers to work properly, since a dish can't support more than 16 tuners. (another load of bs)
- I currently moved my switches back to running off of high frequency splitters (in parallel) where I previous had tested cascading the WB616 off of the SWM16. He tells me that I can't do that. It won't work. I asked if he wanted me to turn on a TV to show him that it does work.
- He told me that I don't need terminators on unused ports on the SWM16. That is completely false....as I had a compression connector come off of a coax cable on on of my sws-4 splitters and every HDDVR on that splitter had issues.

What a waste of a friggin day off. I asked him to just swap the LNB and he refused. He said that if he swaps the LNB that he will be responsible for my system.



ARRRGGGGHHH!!!!!!


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Talking with the Case management guy now. Thankfully, he is a really nice guy. He wants to setup a complete install. They want to use a SWM dish. I have no idea how to hook up a SWM dish with my setup. Especially with multiple switches. I don't even know how many coax runs a SWM dish has. I'll have some researching to do. I was also looking to add an HR34. (Install setup for Tuesday but at this rate, I might cancel)

But they only want to do DECA. I am telling them that losing my OTA is not negotiable so DECA is out. My concern is that if they do this, I'll get some guy like I had today where he says, sorry we only support 1 switch.

This is so frustrating. I only wanted my LNB swapped. Why can't they just do this for me? I wanted my coax runs replaced as well but at this point beggars can't be choosers.

Today is DTV's day to mess with me. Here is what else I dealt with today:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2971966#post2971966


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> OMG!!!! Case management swore to me up and down that I'd get an expert. I didn't want someone to come out for this exact reason. They have no clue.
> The guy that showed up is completely clueless. He saw my home runs where my switches are located and proceeded to tell me that my setup is unsupported.
> Here are some of his gems....
> - The WB616 is not supported. (Ok maybe I will buy this)
> ...


Actually he is right about... They don't support the wb616 at all any more, ota diplexing, and if your splitters aren't green label, they aren't supported any more either.

He has probably been told that your splitting won't work because they don't want that method used at all. If not done right, it can cause issues with voltage and such. Ie using the wrong splitters and such.

He obviously doesn't know everything though, because while it's not supported it does work, if hooked up just right. However, they don't train people for how things used to be hooked up, and I don't blame them for that. Why he doesn't know about terminating unused ports and that they can cascade swim16s though is beyond me.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> Talking with the Case management guy now. Thankfully, he is a really nice guy. He wants to setup a complete install. They want to use a SWM dish. I have no idea how to hook up a SWM dish with my setup. Especially with multiple switches. I don't even know how many coax runs a SWM dish has. I'll have some researching to do. I was also looking to add an HR34. (Install setup for Tuesday but at this rate, I might cancel)
> 
> But they only want to do DECA. I am telling them that losing my OTA is not negotiable so DECA is out. My concern is that if they do this, I'll get some guy like I had today where he says, sorry we only support 1 switch.
> 
> ...


You have two runs to all your boxes right? Deca is on swim, which leaves you with one line for sat and one line for ota. Thats the best way to do it anyway. I would not even consider diplexing anything. You don't want to use diplexing on swim anyway.

Again, the best thing you can do is have them replace the lnb, and replace all your switches with two swim16 units cascaded off each other, and run the ota on the second set of coax lines you have, allowing you to isolate sat feeds on one set of lines and ota on the other with no interaction between the two.

You can NOT use a swim lnb. Not physically possible, you must have swim switches like you do now.

Again, your setup is not simple, and they probably don't train anyone unless specifically asked about setups like yours, so I am not at all surprised b the difficulties your having getting this setup.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> You have two runs to all your boxes right? Deca is on swim, which leaves you with one line for sat and one line for ota. Thats the best way to do it anyway. I would not even consider diplexing anything. You don't want to use diplexing on swim anyway.


Sort of. Some of my receivers have only 1 coax cable.



inkahauts said:


> Again, the best thing you can do is have them replace the lnb, and replace all your switches with two swim16 units cascaded off each other, and run the ota on the second set of coax lines you have, allowing you to isolate sat feeds on one set of lines and ota on the other with no interaction between the two.


And that is what I wanted (except for the dedicated coax runs for OTA as not all of my receivers have 2 coax runs), but the guy refused to do anything. He said I was unsupported and that was the end of that.



inkahauts said:


> You can NOT use a swim lnb. Not physically possible, you must have swim switches like you do now.


CRUD! The solution that the case management person I've been dealing with was to have a new SWM dish setup. I would leave my slimline dish up and run a few receivers off of that SWM dish letting me not have to run multiple switches on the AU-9 dish. Which would then make me "supported". Will the SWM dish work with any sort of switch? I really need to go out and read up on that dish/lnb. He is putting in notes on the account to have the installer bring an AU-9 lnb to swap. My fear is that he comes out to setup the new dish and has no lnb for my existing dish.

The reason we are going this route is that it looks like my local DirecTV service office will NOT support me at all. They say that my setup is unsupported. I must say that this is frustrating.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

A swim dish has one cable coming out of it kind of like a swim8 output. There is no way to have another switch attached to it. It os basically a swim8 built into the lnb, and has only one line out. The case management guy isnt an installer, so he may not understand the technicalities behind this. 

The installer.... He's actually technically right not to change your lnb and yet leave all that other stuff in place, from what i understand. Per directvs policy's, he's screwed if you have any other issues or someone checks his work. The entire system needs to be upgraded to an approved setup. Again, that's two swim16s cascaded. They may not be familiar with that, but if they look hard enough, they will discover that is approved. You may need to push them on that point. Sorry....

Do you have whole home service? If not, get it. Then just record all your ota stuff on the units that do have two coax runs, and don't have ota on all your tvs, but you will still be able to watch all your ota programing because of mrv. Solves that issues.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> A swim dish has one cable coming out of it kind of like a swim8 output. There is no way to have another switch attached to it. It os basically a swim8 built into the lnb, and has only one line out. The case management guy isnt an installer, so he may not understand the technicalities behind this.
> 
> The installer.... He's actually technically right not to change your lnb and yet leave all that other stuff in place, from what i understand. Per directvs policy's, he's screwed if you have any other issues or someone checks his work. The entire system needs to be upgraded to an approved setup. Again, that's two swim16s cascaded. They may not be familiar with that, but if they look hard enough, they will discover that is approved. You may need to push them on that point. Sorry....
> 
> Do you have whole home service? If not, get it. Then just record all your ota stuff on the units that do have two coax runs, and don't have ota on all your tvs, but you will still be able to watch all your ota programing because of mrv. Solves that issues.


Shoot....in that case, I don't want that swm lnb dish. I was under the impression that the switch in that lnb was the equivalent of a swm16. If I can only run 4 receivers off of it I am not sure that I gain much. Will DirecTV do AU-9 installs? I was told that they only perform swm lnb dishes. That would seem odd as then they'd be limited to 4 HDDVR receivers per house.

I do have whole home....over "unsupported" ethernet. I want OTA on a few TV's where I don't want to record. 
For example, my bedroom. I like to lay in bed at night and watch the 11 o'clock news OTA. I watch OTA news from my neighboring DMA market. So it isn't on DirecTV. In that case, I don't want to walk over to another receiver and set it to record the news. I know I can do that, but I don't want to. Especially, because I will most likely forget. I will settle into bed all cozy and then realize I need to get up and setup the news to be recorded.
Another situation where I like to use OTA is to watch my football team. (Redskins). My DMA is Baltimore so often times they don't have the Redskins on. I don't want to setup a recording on another DVR, (I know this is odd with all of the DVR's I have) because that is 3 hours plus of HD recording. I don't want something to get erased as my DVR's tend to run on the more full side.

I can cascade my current switches. That is no big deal. That will take me all of 10 minutes. I went back to parallel because running cascaded did not fix my issue. And parallel is how I've always been running without a problem.

So I guess my only option is to pay someone (3rd party company) to come out and swap my lnb for me since it looks like DirecTV can't help me. This does seem odd. It seems as if I am trying harder to stay a customer than they are. They make a killing off of me in receiver fees. Fees which DirecTV keeps and doesn't have to share such as they do with the $12 for HBO for example. This stinks as the case management person has been really nice.

Comcast is starting to look like a possibility. Which would suck as I despise them. I know that with my setup, Comcast will be pricey, but at this point I just want friggin reliable TV. Also, with Comcast (ptooey) they offer both Washington and Baltimore locals. (Stupid FCC, or is it Congress....satellite companies should be allowed to do this as well)

I've never done this before but is emailing Ellen Fillipiak an option? I mean I am doing everything I can to help. The case management employee and I were discussing the best option would be to get an MDU installer out. He said he looked into that, but we can't get an MDU tech since I am not a commercial account.

Too bad for the installer that came out. I was going to tip him $80 for swapping the lnb and running new coax. I guess he didn't deserve it. I am very laid back and easy to work with. But when he was lying to my face that my system wouldn't work, I started to get very annoyed. If you don't know something, say you don't know. Don't make stuff up.

BTW, thanks for all of your help.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

And wouldn't you know it, all day I never lost the 99 satellite. I had it on CNNHD all day. It is a very sporadic problem. Last night I was good all night. 2 nights ago, I lost it and it wouldn't come back for hours....until the next morning actually.

I just cancelled my HR34 order. No sense in getting an additional commit on my account if this mess keeps up.

I am at a point of near complete exasperation. I know that they consider me unsupported. But my system has been working fine and for 99% of the time it still is fine. In the meantime, I will disconnect the WB616 and put a WB68 in its place. I will also cascade that WB68 from the legacy ports of the SWM16. I only have 2 receivers hooked up to the WB616 as well as running 4 outputs to a SWM8, (which I was planning to use for a HR34) I still think my problem is further up from my switches, but I will try anything right now. My WB616 has one bad port, so maybe it isn't super reliable. Also since I have that swm8, maybe I'll swing a receiver over to it. That will take my swm16 back from being run at capacity.

Woah...I also noticed that swm16 are under $100 on eBay....Maybe I'll buy one.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

The au9 is very old, but they will and can install a slimline3 or slimline5 lnb to replace the one you have now.

And emailing Ellen's office is probably the best thing you can do. You can find her email if you follow the link in my sig to directv tips. I'd include a good amount of detail, but make it a nice email. Say your a bit frustrated, but really just want it all to work right.

I set up recordings for news and all my sports, but I simply limit the to two or three episodes max. With mrv, it's all in how you organize what you record where IMHO, and with as many boxes as you have, I am sure there is a way you could do that without worrying about space, especially if you pick up an hr34, or add an esata drive or two if you haven't already. Just through ing out the options.

Is all your Ethernet wired to the same central location as your sat lines? Any chance of running a second line? Is it only two rooms that have no second line where you would want it? Any chance those are newer Samsung tvs? An hr34 with rvu turned on can solve this issue if you have the right tvs.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> The au9 is very old, but they will and can install a slimline3 or slimline5 lnb to replace the one you have now.
> 
> And emailing Ellen's office is probably the best thing you can do. You can find her email if you follow the link in my sig to directv tips. I'd include a good amount of detail, but make it a nice email. Say your a bit frustrated, but really just want it all to work right.
> 
> ...


Awesome. On the dish install I will request a slimline 5. I'll run that in parallel to my current dish.

I don't mind multiple dishes on my house. My neighbors...that is another story. I already have 2 dishes (now defunct 95 dish) and an antenna.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Well, DirecTV offered to install a new dish for me. I am setup for a slimline 5 with SWM 16 install and also, they re-added the HR34 for me. I will keep my old dish up and swing over the HR24-500 and also add the HR34 onto the new dish/switch. I will pare back my existing dish to only use the swm16. 

Case management also put in a note for the installer to bring an lnb to swap on my existing dish. He said that he can't guarantee that this will happen. But if the guy at least has an lnb with him, I will "tip" him to do this for me as that is not what he is there to actually do. Does my old AU-9 use the same lnb as the new dishes? If so, then I'd think it highly likely that he'll have an lnb for me to use.

I know that he will try to install DECA. I will try to convince him otherwise. Once he is done, I will let the system "bake" for a few days. Once it looks good, I will diplex in my OTA. 

Thanks,


----------



## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

Maybe I missed it but how do you intend the Deca signal from the HR34 (Cannot be turned off) and the OTA to play together after diplexing?


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Scott Kocourek said:


> Maybe I missed it but how do you intend the Deca signal from the HR34 (Cannot be turned off) and the OTA to play together after diplexing?


On another thread, I had read that the way to go about this is to put a diplexer just before the input of the HR34 and then terminate the antenna side of the diplexer. So the side of the diplexer where the combined coax is, goes into the HR34. The other side gets the terminated antenna and the feed from the multiswitch. Also, the location where the HR34 will go actually has 3 coax runs. It will get a dedicated antenna feed.


----------



## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

dinotheo said:


> On another thread, I had read that the way to go about this is to put a diplexer just before the input of the HR34 and then terminate the antenna side of the diplexer. So the side of the diplexer where the combined coax is, goes into the HR34. The other side gets the terminated antenna and the feed from the multiswitch. Also, the location where the HR34 will go actually has 3 coax runs. It will get a dedicated antenna feed.


Gotcha, I thought that question was asked and answered but wasn't sure and didn't want to see you damage a very expensive piece of equipment now and find you wanted to use Deca in the future.


----------



## kjsmithtx (Jul 28, 2006)

I can say that in my experience the HR20-700s are more sensitive to losing signal (swm8). I had 4 of them (now 2 and 2 hr24-100s). My symptoms were that the 700s would get 771 errors and would need to be rebooted. At first it was infrequent, but then it became a several times per week issue. Not always the same HR20, but they each took their turns. As this became more frequent and I began to think about it, I also thought there may be a day vs night issue. I was lucky enough that when I called this problem in it got routed to case management as well and I couldn't believe how GOOD this guy was. He repeaked the dish after replacing the lnb (slimline5) and replaced the barrel connectors outside. When that didn't completely correct the problem, he came back out and replaced the power inserter for the swm as he said they had some problems with the model I had. Problem was less frequent now, but not gone, so he came back again and replaced the swm8. Problem solved! One thing you may want to consider, if you don't already have it is a ups for the power inserter just so it never loses power and it will also prevent fluctuations in power which I get during summertime.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

kjsmithtx said:


> I can say that in my experience the HR20-700s are more sensitive to losing signal (swm8). I had 4 of them (now 2 and 2 hr24-100s). My symptoms were that the 700s would get 771 errors and would need to be rebooted. At first it was infrequent, but then it became a several times per week issue. Not always the same HR20, but they each took their turns. As this became more frequent and I began to think about it, I also thought there may be a day vs night issue. I was lucky enough that when I called this problem in it got routed to case management as well and I couldn't believe how GOOD this guy was. He repeaked the dish after replacing the lnb (slimline5) and replaced the barrel connectors outside. When that didn't completely correct the problem, he came back out and replaced the power inserter for the swm as he said they had some problems with the model I had. Problem was less frequent now, but not gone, so he came back again and replaced the swm8. Problem solved! One thing you may want to consider, if you don't already have it is a ups for the power inserter just so it never loses power and it will also prevent fluctuations in power which I get during summertime.


You are lucky. The guy I got was a complete waste. 
Sounds like you had the same problems I was having with my HR20-700 receivers.

Luckily case management set me up with a new dish install. They are coming with a slimline 5 dish and 2 - SWM16 switches. This time, I know better than to accept the 99 and 103 signals in the 80's. I'll insist on 90+.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> Well, DirecTV offered to install a new dish for me. I am setup for a slimline 5 with SWM 16 install and also, they re-added the HR34 for me. I will keep my old dish up and swing over the HR24-500 and also add the HR34 onto the new dish/switch. I will pare back my existing dish to only use the swm16.
> 
> Case management also put in a note for the installer to bring an lnb to swap on my existing dish. He said that he can't guarantee that this will happen. But if the guy at least has an lnb with him, I will "tip" him to do this for me as that is not what he is there to actually do. Does my old AU-9 use the same lnb as the new dishes? If so, then I'd think it highly likely that he'll have an lnb for me to use.
> 
> ...


Since you seem to know how to install stuff, I'd let him set you up with a completely supported deca system everywhere. Then you can go back, and unhook the deca and duplex in the ota to only the places where you don't have two coax feeds. You can use bsf to halt the deca feeds going into each line and then add the diplexers immediately after that at your main home run spot. This way you will only be dealing with diplex on a couple lines instead of all of them as well, and I would arrange my boxes so that you only diplex to receivers that don't have decas built in. I'd place all my hr24 and hr34 units in locations that do have two coax runs first, or locations you never use ota.

I'd also let the entire system cook for a week or two without any diplexing to make sure there are no issues. After that time, then do the diplexing like I suggested, and if you start having problems after that again, you would have narrowed down that all your issues may be coming from your diplexing. And if you ever did develop issues again you could easily remove the diplexing, and see if the issues disappeared. If they didn't then you could have DirecTV come out again, and they would only see issues with a fully supported system, and you'd avoid all the headache of the your not using a supported system so I won't touch it from the installers like you have been dealing with.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Since you seem to know how to install stuff, I'd let him set you up with a completely supported deca system everywhere. Then you can go back, and unhook the deca and duplex in the ota to only the places where you don't have two coax feeds. You can use bsf to halt the deca feeds going into each line and then add the diplexers immediately after that at your main home run spot. This way you will only be dealing with diplex on a couple lines instead of all of them as well, and I would arrange my boxes so that you only diplex to receivers that don't have decas built in. I'd place all my hr24 and hr34 units in locations that do have two coax runs first, or locations you never use ota.
> 
> I'd also let the entire system cook for a week or two without any diplexing to make sure there are no issues. After that time, then do the diplexing like I suggested, and if you start having problems after that again, you would have narrowed down that all your issues may be coming from your diplexing. And if you ever did develop issues again you could easily remove the diplexing, and see if the issues disappeared. If they didn't then you could have DirecTV come out again, and they would only see issues with a fully supported system, and you'd avoid all the headache of the your not using a supported system so I won't touch it from the installers like you have been dealing with.


I was going to wait for a while before diplexing in the OTA. I was going to ask them to skip installing DECA. If they insist I will just disconnect it. 
But I thought I couldn't do DECA at all. 
Maybe I misunderstood, but if I leave DECA and only diplex in OTA in a couple of locations, then those locations couldn't participate in the whole home. If that is the case (which is as I understand it) then, DECA is out for me as I want all of my receivers participating in whole home.

Thanks again for all of your help.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> I was going to wait for a while before diplexing in the OTA. I was going to ask them to skip installing DECA. If they insist I will just disconnect it.
> But I thought I couldn't do DECA at all.
> Maybe I misunderstood, but if I leave DECA and only diplex in OTA in a couple of locations, then those locations couldn't participate in the whole home. If that is the case (which is as I understand it) then, DECA is out for me as I want all of my receivers participating in whole home.
> 
> Thanks again for all of your help.


I assume they will set you up with an ick for both deca clouds which will bridge them to your home network. The units not on deca could then be plugged into your home network and will still be able to connect and talk with your units that are on deca. I have had that kind of setup with some units on deca and others strait to the network without deca and it all worked just fine. Kind of a mixed network.


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I assume they will set you up with an ick for both deca clouds which will bridge them to your home network. The units not on deca could then be plugged into your home network and will still be able to connect and talk with your units that are on deca. I have had that kind of setup with some units on deca and others strait to the network without deca and it all worked just fine. Kind of a mixed network.


Hmmm....ok. I wasn't aware you could do that. Otherwise I would have done it earlier. All of my receivers are currently connected to my home network. Looks like I have some reading up to do.

Thanks.


----------



## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

I thought I asked this before, but it must have been in another thread. Is there a reason why you have to have OTA at each location? I thought you said you have dual coax runs to a few locations? Why not run OTA on the seperate line to those locations and put an AM21 hooked up to a DVR there. Then you can watch live OTA at that location anytime you want, or record anything you want from OTA. You can watch those OTA recordings on your other receivers using Whole Home DVR. The only time this can be inconvenient is if you are in another room and you need to watch something from OTA that isn't being recorded. In that case you would have to go to the room with OTA and start the recording, then you could go back and watch it wherever you want.

This is what I have done at my house and it works fine. I don't need to use OTA very often in my bedroom or downstairs, so it isn't that big of a deal if I have to go to the living room or theater room to have the DVR record something off OTA in there so I can watch it in the bedroom.


----------



## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

I have and use OTA at each DVR location...of course my locals are not in HD yet...


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> Hmmm....ok. I wasn't aware you could do that. Otherwise I would have done it earlier. All of my receivers are currently connected to my home network. Looks like I have some reading up to do.
> 
> Thanks.


Your system is not for the faint of heart! 

Here is a little more specific explanation of how this should work...

Here is the deal, you can't run ota and deca at the same time, but you can stop deca from being used on certain lines, and run ota instead.

Here is how you normally hook up your coax when utilizing deca.

For a coax run to a receiver with deca built into it:
swim16 > splitter > receiver

or for a coax run to a receiver without deca built into it:
swim16 > splitter > deca adapter > receiver

If you are trying to diplex in coax as well, then your run would need to look like this:
swim > splitter > band stop filter > diplexer in > diplexer out > receiver

The band stop filter (bsf) basically blocks all the deca signal from going any further down the line, and it uses frequencies that are the same as of OTA. So by stopping the deca frequency and then diplexing the OTA in after the bsf, you avoid the two conflicting with each other.

This will work with any unit except the hr34. That would require an additional bsf just before the coax input on the hr34.

In your setup, I personally would put the hr34 and all hr24's in places that have two coax runs. I would then place any other hr at the locations where you will need to diplex the OTA. This allows you to use less dongles in the long run.

Just make sure both of your deca clouds (you will have two since you will have two swim 16s) are connected to your home network. (you could hook one of them up by simply plugging in your hr34 via its Ethernet port to the home network, and the other a ick from directv) As long as you aren't doing anything weird with your home router (like assigning vastly subnets and dns servers for different areas of your network), the two deca clouds will be bridged via the home network, and any non deca cloud receiver will also be bridged to all deca cloud receivers via the home network.

Does this make sense?

Again, I'd let them come in and hook you up completely supported, just make sure you put the right receivers in the right places, and only running with ota in places with two coax runs for the moment. (personally, I would not let them run two dishes either. I'd make them run one dish, a new one, to a swim16, and them make them cascade a second swim16 off of that, as it is supposed to be, but that's up to you, either way will work, but there really is no need for a second dish. That's just a waste). Then after a week or two with no issues, I would then use the method I just described for diplexing in your ota signal to the one or two locations where you need it and don't have that second run available.

This allows you to make sure you can get a fully supported system working perfectly, and then when you add ota diplexing back in, you will be able to isolate any issues that are arising due to that if any more issues should pop up.


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

dinotheo said:


> ...He told me that I don't need terminators on unused ports on the SWM16. That is completely false....as I had a compression connector come off of a coax cable on on of my sws-4 splitters and every HDDVR on that splitter had issues...


Your experience was not related to not having terminators; it was only coincidental. Speaking as someone who spent 8 years as a cable TV plant design headend and sweep technician, I can attest to the fact that terminators are not necessary anywhere in a RF distribution system other than at the end of a trunk or feeder line, and that virtually no one uses them on drops or low-level distribution, except on unused ports that are exposed to the weather, and that is not for any electrical reason, that is only as a protective measure.

Hybrid splitters/power dividers and directional couplers are designed so that all ports are isolated from each other. If they were not, and were affected by everything connected to the system, the system would have to be rebalanced every time a new connection was made or removed, which would be immensely impractical. When a parallel connection is made to or removed from a port on a splitter or coupler, it has zero affect on the other ports. L-band distribution switches have even less of a need for terminators. If a port is not terminated on a splitter, coupler, or switch, that has no bearing on the RF levels, the isolation, or the operation of that device as far as the active ports are concerned.

A terminated port appears to the device as an infinitely-long cable, so nothing gets reflected. An unterminated port does experience a certain amount of RF reflection, but again, the ports are isolated from each other, so it really does not matter if there is reflection or not, or if the port is terminated or not.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

TomCat said:


> Your experience was not related to not having terminators; it was only coincidental. Speaking as someone who spent 8 years as a cable TV plant design headend and sweep technician, I can attest to the fact that terminators are not necessary anywhere in a RF distribution system other than at the end of a trunk or feeder line, and that virtually no one uses them on drops or low-level distribution, except on unused ports that are exposed to the weather, and that is not for any electrical reason, that is only as a protective measure.
> 
> Hybrid splitters/power dividers and directional couplers are designed so that all ports are isolated from each other. If they were not, and were affected by everything connected to the system, the system would have to be rebalanced every time a new connection was made or removed, which would be immensely impractical. When a parallel connection is made to or removed from a port on a splitter or coupler, it has zero affect on the other ports. L-band distribution switches have even less of a need for terminators. If a port is not terminated on a splitter, coupler, or switch, that has no bearing on the RF levels, the isolation, or the operation of that device as far as the active ports are concerned.
> 
> A terminated port appears to the device as an infinitely-long cable, so nothing gets reflected. An unterminated port does experience a certain amount of RF reflection, but again, the ports are isolated from each other, so it really does not matter if there is reflection or not, or if the port is terminated or not.


I'm sure there is a system somewhere that this is true, but NOT ON A SWIM!
You should see the inside of the splitters used, and then "You'd Know Better".

Isolation is between outputs, but not between input and outputs, since these can be used as combiners, AND the DECA signal needs to pass in both directions, by using Wilkinson [based] power dividers like this one:










Where you're referring to one like this:










*ALL UNUSED SPLITTER PORTS SHOULD BE TERMINATED WITH A 75Ω RESISTOR/LOAD*


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Folks,
I had my install today. It took quite a long time. Kudos to DirecTV for sending out a great installer. 
He is pretty sure that the problem was bad lnb. The cover came off the back of the lnb (exposing a metal back) and he thinks having it heated and then cooled caused the issues. Also, he hooked up his meter right at the lnb and while the signals were decent strength the meter noted that there was a problem with the 99 satellite. 

The installer put up a new dish anyways. He didn't run new coax as he said the coax was good quality. He did cut off the crimped connectors (2 of which didn't have the dielectric flush) and put on new compression connectors. He ran 1 coax line down with a grounding wire so that he can properly ground the dish. Installed all new switches and deca. 

He was super nice. I asked if I could bug him with a request. I asked if he could please peak my 99 and 103 to at least 90 signal strength. (My previous dish was in the mid 80's) He said that I didn't even need to ask. He won't come down from the roof unless they are in the mid 90's. True to his word I have 95+ on all my Ka band transponders!!!!

I am sure that my issue has been resolved as his meter showed a problem at the lnb with the 99 satellite. 

Thanks for the help.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"dinotheo" said:


> Folks,
> I had my install today. It took quite a long time. Kudos to DirecTV for sending out a great installer.
> He is pretty sure that the problem was bad lnb. The cover came off the back of the lnb (exposing a metal back) and he thinks having it heated and then cooled caused the issues. Also, he hooked up his meter right at the lnb and while the signals were decent strength the meter noted that there was a problem with the 99 satellite.
> 
> ...


Ok, now what did he do? Did he cascade two swim16s for you? Did he set you up with an ick for one, of the deca clouds and use the hr34 to bridge the other? Just curios now!

Glad you finally have to worked out! The right installer is always key!


----------



## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Ok, now what did he do? Did he cascade two swim16s for you? Did he set you up with an ick for one, of the deca clouds and use the hr34 to bridge the other? Just curios now!
> 
> Glad you finally have to worked out! The right installer is always key!


- He installed a new dish/lnb.
- Ran a single coax w/ground wire down and used 3 of the existing coax lines (did this so that he could ground the dish)
- He cascaded the 2nd swm16 off of the 1st swm16's legacy ports (both were new swm switches)
- He put each swm16 on a deca
- Setup the new HR34

After a day of baking in. 
I put the 2 receivers that I wanted to diplex in OTA on their own 8 way splitter. For that 8-way, I installed a BSF between it and the swm port. I plugged those 2 receivers back into my home network and also plugged the HR34 into my home network. Every receiver can see every other receiver.
Success!!!

After having DECA. For people like me, where I have lots of receivers and ethernet everywhere, I don't see any benefit to DECA. But, I'll humor DTV and keep DECA on 3 of the 4 8-way splitters.

Thanks very much for the help!!!


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> - He installed a new dish/lnb.
> - Ran a single coax w/ground wire down and used 3 of the existing coax lines (did this so that he could ground the dish)
> - He cascaded the 2nd swm16 off of the 1st swm16's legacy ports (both were new swm switches)
> - He put each swm16 on a deca
> ...


Sounds pretty good. I am only hearing one thing that you could do to improve your system a little bit. You should never use a spliter larger than necessary if you can avoid it. All you are doing is loosing signal strength for no reason. Those two receivers you have hooked up to that one 8 way spliter, I'd replace that 8 way with a green label 2 way spliter.

Excellent on putting in your BSF and diplexing in your OTA.

I don't know how they wired you up, but if all you have is dvrs, then there is no scenario in which you should have any more than a 4 way spliter no matter how you set up your system.

By the way, if you have a cck deca on the same swim16 as the hr34 you don't need to plug the hr34 into Ethernet. In fact, I'd avoid that. Not sure how you have it wired, but each swim only need one point of entry, which means the swim16 that has the hr34 should only have either the hr34 plugged into the Ethernet connection, or a cck deca, but not both.

And I assume the hr34 isn't on a line that has OTA diplexed in either, correct?


----------

