# FROM DISH: Dish drops FireWire from the 921!



## SpenceJT

WTF!!!!

I sure as heck hope Dish has a nice price drop on the product to reflect the crippled nature of their "flagship" product! 

If there is not a sizable price reduction, I will be seriously considering cancelling my order.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=12016


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## jsanders

SpenceJT said:


> I sure as heck hope Dish has a nice price drop on the product to reflect the crippled nature of their "flagship" product!


If it is true, then I really feel for all of those people out there that bought the 921 and a DVHS deck! Maybe they will come out with the blue ray DVD burner for the expansion bay. That would be cool


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## SpenceJT

jsanders said:


> Maybe they will come out with the blue ray DVD burner for the expansion bay. That would be cool


 :lol: You just made me crack a smile over this lunacy! I'm thinking of following in the footstep of others, who will no doubt be cancelling their 921 order.

I'll hang on to my 6000 and the hope that there will be something better coming "round the bend" (before I go "round the bend"). :grin:


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## jsanders

My 6000 has collected a lot of dust. I sure waited a long time for the 921 to come around, and I'm happy with what it does and I will be happier when they iron out a few more bugs.

We can always wait for the next thing to come around. I waited for the 921, and if they come out with a better one, I will get that one too, and sell the 921. They don't seem to be loosing any value on EBay!

In the end, I'm enjoying the 921 in my livingroom, and I'm sure it won't be the last product I enjoy. A blue ray DVD burner for HD content really would be cool, even if improbable, don't you think??? :hurah:


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## SpenceJT

jsanders said:


> They don't seem to be loosing any value on EBay!


...yet 

and yes a BlueRay burner would be very cool... but then so would the active IEEE 1394 ports that were promised (and not listed as "for future use") by Dish Network.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying my Dish products and I hope you continue to enjoy your 921 (I hope Dish continues to work through the existing bugs). I am just very, very disapointed and hope that if Dish chooses to lower the price due to this, that you are in some way compensated. I hope that Dish comes through with a lower price and I can receive the 921 that I've been waiting on for so long, but I won't be paying $999 for something that doesn't function as advertised.

Regards,
Spence


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## Raymond Simonian

Will they ever be able to add a module to the 921 so that it can tape onto HDVHS? Is taping to HDVHS a dead issue with the 921?


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## juan ellitinez

Before we get all excited about this unfortunte turn of events lets not forget who the source of the "story" is? I'm still waiting for YES to make its apppearance :nono2: :alterhase :jumpingja :jumpingja


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## metallicafreak

If it is a hardware flaw then they should fix the damn thing. You product and if it is broken, they fix it or give you a new one that works!
what a pile of ****!


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## Matt Stevens

Here is what I know to be fact: Working Firewire would have required a full recall. A very expensive recall that would have delayed the 921 foir months and months. Maybe till late 2004. They chose to say F YOU instead and are disabling the ports.

This is triple confirmed.

I'm returning my 921 as soon as I can get a hold of them and leaving DISH as soon as I can get my HD cable installed.


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## Mark Lamutt

Dishwire is dead. It's not possible to fix in the current generation of 921s. 

I'm going to leave this thread here for a few days, and then move it to the Dish DVR forum because it's not a software problem, the developers can't do a thing about it, and it's an unfixable hardware problem without a complete redesign.


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## tnsprin

Mark Lamutt said:


> Dishwire is dead. It's not possible to fix in the current generation of 921s.
> 
> I'm going to leave this thread here for a few days, and then move it to the Dish DVR forum because it's not a software problem, the developers can't do a thing about it, and it's an unfixable hardware problem without a complete redesign.


As I replied to Scott's board.

Definitely a bummer. I have never been sold on PVR/DVR as such, but thought it might be a good way to screen programs before putting them to tape.

I have a old panasonic that I still use to place over the air programs to tape. Put its getting a bit erratic. I had a 5000 with hd/adapter but its now useless.

I was hoping the 921 would fit in replacing all of this but now NO Dish equipment is available that will fill my needs.


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## SimpleSimon

Mark Lamutt said:


> Dishwire is dead. It's not possible to fix in the current generation of 921s.


So, it's time to consider what we should have the lawyers ask for:

Full Refund
Rebate for lost functionality
Replacement of functionality (e.g. USB 2.0 video output - maybe not possible)
Upgrade to 922 (or whatever will have IEEE 1394) - with transfer of shows on hard disk, or unlimited time to play off of the old one.
I think the choice should be the customer's any of the above.

In addition, I think Dish/EchoStar should be given a permanent injunction to prevent any future 'vaporware'. In other words, you don't announce it until it actually works. Period.


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## jsanders

To be honest, Dish never actually said it works... They said that at sometime in the future, they will turn it on. Has anyone bought the 921 thinking that it was turned on? 

Anyway, it is too bad that it turned out this way. I do have shows I would like to archive, like "Strange Brew" in HD. The DVHS tape seems a bit clumbsy, but it would have been better than nothing. There are 4 free PCI slots in it aren't there? Is there anything stopping them from adding a firewire card to it?


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## MattG

If this is actually true then dish is going to have a serious public relations problem on their hands because of their deceptive marketing practices. Many of the early 921 adopters such as myself were willing to pay $1k for the 921 instead of waiting for HDTivo because of the 921's future ability to dump content to a DVHS deck. Hopefully dish will do the right thing and offer some sort of apology or some form of compensation to current 921 owners because of this.

If it's a problem with the 1394 chipset they should consider making a functional dishwire card that uses one of the 921's expansions slots.


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## Frank Z

I fired off an email to Dish asking if this is true. Sorry Mark, no offense intended, I just need to get it straight from the horse's mouth instead of through the rumour mill.

I'll post whatever response I happen to receive.


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## lex61564

Mark Lamutt said:


> Dishwire is dead. It's not possible to fix in the current generation of 921s.


I don't usually complain but that really sucks dude, That is a complete step backwards, that was one of the things that really put the 921 ahead of the rest. A complete machine second to none and for people to know that something is never going to work and not say anything sucks too. A total deception. If it is a hardware problem it should be taken care of and machine should be swapped out for one that is as it's is supposed to be and works. That is what a good company does. It is not our fault that is a design error, a lot of people bought the machine and the basis that it was designed as advertised. That really is a bunch of mombo jumbo. Tt is going to be hard to trust a company and people that operate like that too.

I called Dish tonight and talked to a knowledgeable lady who is totally UN aware of the this new info and doubts that is true but I have to assume that Mark and the others here have the upper hand and know the inside scoop.

Don't get me wrong The 921 is a good machine and has some great quality but if this new information is true this 921 not what I expected or hope for.

I will keep looking for something that delivers as advertised.


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## dfergie

making D*hd tivo look better and better (if hd upgradeable)


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## Mark Lamutt

Guys, I agree with all of you. This really does suck very much, and it wasn't handled well. Scott forced the issue today, giving Dish the ultimatum of no choice but to respond. 

I was still holding out some hope that it might be possible in the future with a retrofit product of some kind to give the 921 the firewire capabilities. But, after the events of today, I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

I also seriously doubt that the 922 will offer firewire capability as well. I have no information about that, but I just don't see it happening.


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## lex61564

You know I pay $200 bucks a month for Dish services, I don't like companies that miss represent themselves. Definitely going to look for alternatives, and they will be out there, sooner or later.


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## Mark Lamutt

Just goes to prove that we should never buy something based on "future enhancements"...a good amount of the time, they never happen.

Good example is my Sony HDTV - I got it the year before DVI became the norm. At one point Sony was saying that they would develop and release a module to add DVI to my set, like Mitsubushi was doing with theirs with the Promise module. Sony never came through with that. Mits did.


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## Frank Z

I wonder if D* or Voom will be looking to pick up some disgruntled E* customers.


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## Mark Lamutt

I'm sure they will. Although neither of them offer a firewire solution either. At least I know that Directv doesn't, and I don't believe the Voom does either.


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## Neutron

Frank Z said:


> I wonder if D* or Voom will be looking to pick up some disgruntled E* customers.


Heck, DISH is on a roll now with defecting customers. I left after the Viacom thing last month. That, with the Turner channels dropping threat, and now the 921 no firewire issue really says a lot about DISH as a company.

Guess what, their CSR's aren't even better. I started a thread on the other board about this in the General DISH forum. They can do whatever they want and they aren't in violation of the contract, but if we do something we are. I'm being pushed to pay a $240 cancellation fee because I felt the issue was with them dropping channels without a proper announcement they were in violation of the contract. Oh no, I get yelled at by a CSR on that point. I am so glad I switched to Directv.


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## lex61564

I have been with Dish for 7 years, I have never ever thought of another company but to just slap those ports on the back of the 921 knowing that it was never designed to work is just scandalous. I always thought Dish was the good guy. Boy was I wrong.


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## Mark Lamutt

All I can say is that originally they were designed to work, but something happened along the way in the process that became a real problem. 

I'm not trying to defend anyone here - just pointing out that they didn't set out to end up here.


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## Neutron

Mark Lamutt said:


> All I can say is that originally they were designed to work, but something happened along the way in the process that became a real problem.
> 
> I'm not trying to defend anyone here - just pointing out that they didn't set out to end up here.


They should have been upfront with their customers who bought the 921, instead of Scott having to drag it out of DISH. It seems to me DISH wanted to hide this.


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## deadbeat

This wasn't actually a very important feature to me. I suspected it would never be activated when I purchased, although for different reasons. I figured they deactivated the port because of the copyright issues, but apparently not.

Dish should realize this is extremely bad PR with their high-end customer base. Fortunately for me, I can afford to dump my 921 for an HDTivo and DirectTV. If and when I do that, they'll never get me back. they spend a fortune trying to get new customers, they should try a little harder to keep the ones they have.


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## lex61564

Mark Lamutt said:


> Guys, I agree with all of you. This really does suck very much, and it wasn't handled well. Scott forced the issue today, giving Dish the ultimatum of no choice but to respond.


 Why should they be force to reply? Right, at least the issue got forced and the lie finally came to the surface now and later. What are the waiting for? Why would they wait to tell everyone later? That really sucks dude, trying to keep that from everyone especially when a lot of people were looking forward to it. You know I really don't like it when I read people bashing the engineers for shaky software. I know they are working their tails off to make the thing stable but when they deliberately hide this kind of info and try to milk the public to by something that doesn't work and it take an honest guy at Sat guy to drag it out of them that really burns me up inside!!!!! SO mad dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cracka

Neutron said:


> They should have been upfront with their customers who bought the 921, instead of Scott having to drag it out of DISH. It seems to me DISH wanted to hide this.


I couldn't agree more. Considering the kind of coin we ponied up for this steaming silver pile, they should have been nothing but up front with their early adopters, ardent supporters, and loyal customers. This is our punishment for having the audacity to believe Dish's spec sheets before laying out our $1000. And on top of all that, this had to be dragged out of them.

I am insulted.

This whole ridiculous episode truly adds a malicious new meaning to the stark, greyed-out phrase "DVHS Setup".

I'm not sure what the proper course of action is, but I think those of us that do have 921s and are upset about this should consider organizing in some way to present a united & coherent front.


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## MattG

At this point if Dish officially announces they won't support firewire on the 921 and they are not going to do anything for all their high-end loyal 921 customers they deceived then I wouldn't be adverse to joining some sort of class action lawsuit if one was created.
The bottom line is dish needs to come clean and admit to their mistakes and do something to make amends with all the current 921 owners.

For what it's worth their online product brochure still says the 921 has two dishwire ports.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/product_brochures/dish_player-dvr_921.pdf


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## lex61564

> I'm returning my 921 as soon as I can get a hold of them and leaving DISH as soon as I can get my HD cable installed.


I am looking into the cable solution as well.


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## lex61564

SimpleSimon said:


> So, it's time to consider what we should have the lawyers ask for:
> 
> Full Refund
> Rebate for lost functionality
> Replacement of functionality (e.g. USB 2.0 video output - maybe not possible)
> Upgrade to 922 (or whatever will have IEEE 1394) - with transfer of shows on hard disk, or unlimited time to play off of the old one.
> I think the choice should be the customer's any of the above.
> 
> In addition, I think Dish/EchoStar should be given a permanent injunction to prevent any future 'vaporware'. In other words, you don't announce it until it actually works. Period.


Totally agree with ya!


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## bytre

Mark Lamutt said:


> At one point Sony was saying that they would develop and release a module to add DVI to my set, like Mitsubushi was doing with theirs with the Promise module. Sony never came through with that. Mits did.


Mitsubishi's Promise Module adds 1394, not DVI.


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## Interprises

IEEE 1394 support was the main reason I purchased the 921. All brochures, at the time I purchased the unit, advertised compatibility. So, we need compensation or posted procedures for refund and return of the unit.

Thanks.


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## John Corn

Wow....this is about as much as I can take..... :nono: 

I was planning on leaving Dish in all honesty, now I know I am. It's going to be awhile because I want an HD DirecTiVo. I would like to get one when they offer a new customer promo for it.


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## Interprises

They're still advertising support, on their website:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/product_brochures/dish_player-dvr_921.pdf


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## Interprises

Mark Lamutt said:


> Just goes to prove that we should never buy something based on "future enhancements"...a good amount of the time, they never happen.


Mark, their advertising does not categorize 1394 support as a "future enhancement." As of this moment, their brochure includes in their REAR PANEL *FEATURES*; 2 DISH Wire™ audio/video connection ports for interface with select IEEE 1394 products. (see below)

The brochure does not warn of that being a "future enhancement," or that there is a problem with current design. I'm sure there are several like me, who made their buying decision based upon Dish Network's web site advertising. I didn't find DBSTalk until after making my purchase. Even here, there has not been any comment regarding scraping of IEEE 1394 support, until now.

This is something that Dish Network will need to face, in a responsible manner, if they wish to keep things civil. They will need to refund dollars to those customers who purchased the units based upon their advertising. Or, they will need to offer the option to return the units for a full-refund.

We need an official statement from Dish Network, posted on DBSTalk, or a contact person and phone number of someone within the corporation who is aware of the concerns and can take care of handling those customers needing compensation or refunds.

Thanks for your help, Mark.


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## lex61564

We should some kinda of refund or rebate. based upon false advertising just like when we lost those channel due to contract disputes.


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## RAD

Mark Lamutt said:


> Just goes to prove that we should never buy something based on "future enhancements"...a good amount of the time, they never happen.
> 
> Good example is my Sony HDTV - I got it the year before DVI became the norm. At one point Sony was saying that they would develop and release a module to add DVI to my set, like Mitsubushi was doing with theirs with the Promise module. Sony never came through with that. Mits did.


Mark, if you look at the Dish web site please show me where it says that the Dishwire ports on the 921 are non-functional now and it's a future feature? The PDF on the site right now for the 921 http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/product_brochures/dish_player-dvr_921.pdf says "2 DISHWire audio/video connection ports for interface with select IEEE1394 products". No where does it say 'coming at some future date'.

That's an issue I've had with Dish in the past, they announce things that just never happen. Examples are OpenTV on the 6000. What about the internet access via the 721? Did they ever get the unlimited favorites fixed on the 811? SuperDish for adding up to 50 HD channels at 105. Will they really add the two tuner mode to the 522 or will they find out something that will prevent them from doing that and changing the product specs? Dish has pulled this little trick one to many times for my taste and my opinion is a company that is untrustworthy.

Now if they had done with D*'s done with the USB ports on the DirecTivo's, just put them there but not say that they will ever do anything with then that's different, no expectations have been set with the customer. If they do something in the future with then that's great, but if they're never activated then they're not removing something that you thought you were buying.

Sorry but E* pulled a big boner with this one. Scott has said that some heads at E* have rolled on this one, frankly someone ought to have Charlie's head roll, they need a new leaded with some direction there.


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## RAD

John Corn said:


> Wow....this is about as much as I can take..... :nono:
> 
> I was planning on leaving Dish in all honesty, now I know I am. It's going to be awhile because I want an HD DirecTiVo. I would like to get one when they offer a new customer promo for it.


John, ValueElectronics is saying that they can fill all their HD DirecTivo orders by the end of May, assuming that D* doesn't delay it again this week. In fact if you look on the http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170175 thread it's showing a working unit that they have at their store.

They were offering a discount if you preordered but D* made them stop, with the demand for the product it might be awhile before there's any deals to be had. If you're a member of AVSForum you can check out this small deal, http://www.valueelectronics.com/avsTC.htm If you were willing to get a 921 for $1k you should just go and pop for the D* unit. You should give them a call and see what kind of deal Robert can work out for you.


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## Frank Z

Mark,
I agre that they didn't plan on screwing this up as badly as they have, but they damn sure could have handled this situation a lot better. How difficult would it have been to contact the current 921 owners and let them know what was/is going on. If the automotive industry can recall half a million cars easily, can't E* send out a letter to their 921 customers and explain why we are not getting what we paid for? Hell they could have a message pop-up on our TV's fairly easily. 

I'm going to take a wait and see attitude. Hopefully E* will come through and either fix the issue with the 921 or give us an alternative.


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## Peluso

SimpleSimon said:


> In addition, I think Dish/EchoStar should be given a permanent injunction to prevent any future 'vaporware'. In other words, you don't announce it until it actually works. Period.


That will never happen. Not just with dish, but with any company.


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## RAD

Peluso said:


> That will never happen. Not just with dish, but with any company.


It's been a long time, but if I remember correctly, back in the late 60's IBM was told to stop preannouncing things that were late or didn't happen as part of a settlement with the feds. This was done because they preannounced things that made folks not purchase products from another company because IBM would be coming out with such and such, and sometimes it didn't happen.


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## Peluso

deadbeat said:


> they spend a fortune trying to get new customers, they should try a little harder to keep the ones they have.


You just stumbled upon a major issue of internal politics in the Dish corporate culture. The problem is their is a camp inside of Dish that doesn't want to turn the satellite industry into a model of the cell phone industry. I've always felt that their should be a system of credits, for every month or year that a customer is active, they get a number of credits applied to their account... then when they call up after being a customer for three or four years with a hardware or service issue, the credits they have will allow them some graduated level of service, free hardware, free service call, what ever... Just make them happy. The customer doesnt' even have to know that the system exhists.. But if you want to really expand the club dish program, give the Dish customers a way to control their credits and buy dish stuff, turn Club Dish into an actual club.


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## Lee L

Mark Lamutt said:


> Just goes to prove that we should never buy something based on "future enhancements"...a good amount of the time, they never happen.
> 
> Good example is my Sony HDTV - I got it the year before DVI became the norm. At one point Sony was saying that they would develop and release a module to add DVI to my set, like Mitsubushi was doing with theirs with the Promise module. Sony never came through with that. Mits did.


Mark, just to reiterate what someone else said. Mits *did not add a DVI port * in spite of promising that they would upgrade their TV's to be compatible with future standards. Instead they revised the promise to say it would work with 1394 only and said and continue to say that DVI is not a connection standard for HDTV even though they have DVI on their current line of sets. Sounds like they went to the same customer sat school as Charlie.


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## Peluso

RAD said:


> It's been a long time, but if I remember correctly, back in the late 60's IBM was told to stop preannouncing things that were late or didn't happen as part of a settlement with the feds. This was done because they preannounced things that made folks not purchase products from another company because IBM would be coming out with such and such, and sometimes it didn't happen.


At the time that was an antitrust settlement. IBM was considered a monopoly. Different rules apply, as the good people at Microsoft are finding out.


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## metallicafreak

Lee L said:


> Mark, just to reiterate what someone else said. Mits *did not add a DVI port * in spite of promising that they would upgrade their TV's to be compatible with future standards. Instead they revised the promise to say it would work with 1394 only and said and continue to say that DVI is not a connection standard for HDTV even though they have DVI on their current line of sets. Sounds like they went to the same customer sat school as Charlie.


We also do not live in a buyer beware environment who signs away rights by setting foot in a stoor or buying a product. False advertisement is exactly that and we the consumer should not have to question everything a product list as features (not in active but just there) as to wether they will ever materialize or not. You buy a car that advertises a cd player, it better friggin work. The fuel injection better be as advertised (with in a small varience but funcitonal). 
I am all for class action count me the F in man.
Pissed as hell!
FREAK!


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## RAD

Peluso said:


> At the time that was an antitrust settlement. IBM was considered a monopoly. Different rules apply, as the good people at Microsoft are finding out.


Maybe E* could be considered that since they are the ONLY source of hardware for their service. Yea, that's pushing the envelope but if you use E* it's their hardware or nothing.


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## Slordak

Jeez, for $999, I personally expect a high end device packed with sophisticated features. Furthermore, I expect all of the features to work correctly (!). Even after software fixes, the 921 is still disappointing, in my mind. This should be a $399 or $499 product, realistically. Consider the following:

1) It's sluggish. It will probably never be as fast as a 501/508/510 in terms of general UI response times, responsiveness to the remote, and channel switching speed.

2) It has poor quality output hardware. The component outputs are plagued by all kinds of issues with lines of various color marring the display. Even after recalls and fixes, the output hardware is still unable to do certain modes which are universally considered standard (e.g. 480i over component).

3) It has poor quality de-interlacing and scaling hardware. It should have high-end Faroudja / DCDi de-interlacing, instead of whatever low-end PC junk hardware is actually present in the box. This is supposed to be a high-end home theatre device, not a PC that can output HDTV! Based on empirical observations, the scaling and de-interlacing are simply inferior to that done by many high-end HDTVs.

4) The DishWire / 1394 connections are apparently broken and unusable. The USB connections are apparently not supported or other unusable.

5) The composite (auxiliary) input on the 921 produces a terrible image when viewed, as if it were also broken.

6) The 921 doesn't support certain "standard" legacy switch configurations and is extremely picky about satellite wiring (must have two connections, must see the same satellites, must have the 110 satellite at a certain position on the switch, etc).

... And for the most part, these are all hardware issues, meaning no amount of tinkering with the software is going to fully address them. Software fixes might partially resolve them, or make them less of an issue, but they will still be there, essentially forever. Very disappointing.


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## emathis

I wasn't surprised that this happened. Don't under estimate the pressure of the major movie studios. They are extremely scared of the public being able to exchange high definition copies of their movies. This is what is delaying HD-DVD and also crippling those formats.


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## conner65

I am amazed at the problems dish network is having. To me it looks like that ever since the merge didn't go through the people at dish have been lost. I think that Charlie put a lot of eggs in that basket and the company is reeling b/c of it's failure. That is just my opinion.


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## DonLandis

Mark-
You know I have supported the 921 relentlessly since it's introduction in 2002. I own one and am quite happy with it's current and improving performance. But this Dishwire issue is not just about Dishwire or not. It is about integrity and the people who are in control of the products we buy. Since I do have my DVHS recording bases covered outside of the 921, having Dishwire is not as important to me as it is to some others but I have to take a stand on this and I stand with what's right. Dish employees clearly deceived us all with a Dishwire scam. Maybe it didn't start out that way but even at CES, they were claiming it would soon be activated. Not waiting for the HDTIVO and buying the 921 for me was based on Dishwire advantage. Therefore, I was lied to. They lied to me in order to secure my 921 business which also included me upgrading my service to $110 per month from previously $42 a month service. 
Having been deceived by these people I find I can no longer trust anything they say, nothing. No promises from a known liar. In addition, and Please, please do not take this wrong. I find that you being the "official liason" for 921 information from Dish Network, E* and Eldon, that I can't believe you either. I know you are well meaning and not of their character. I trust you are not. However, you are the messenger of their deceit and consequently, I have to say that I must doubt anything you deliver since, it appears to me that even you were deceived by your connections. Mark, you are not alone. I, too, had several insider connections I trusted at E*. They fed me the same misinformation and I now have to sever those relations. I have been embarrassed personally by their lack of integrity. I am ashamed I delivered and believed in what I was told and feel after sleeping on it for a night that I can no longer, in good conscious believe any promise that comes from Dish Network. I will only believe in what they are delivering now and consider any future announcements of products and service to be lies of deceit to gain unsuspecting customer business. 

I respectfully request that you tender your resignation as official liason and preserve the respect most of us have for you. We are judged by the company we keep. In my opinion the only recourse now is for E* to reverse yesterdays position on this and announce that the 1394 snafu was an error on Mark Lumpkin's part and that Dishwire will soon be released and activated, even if in a beta unstable state, and that efforts to make it work well, whatever it takes, will be made. Beyond that change from yesterdays position, I will conclude, E* intentionally deceived it's customers and you, Mark, as you are working for them. How can we trust the message you deliver as liason is true?


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## RAD

DonLandis said:


> In my opinion the only recourse now is for E* to reverse yesterdays position on this and announce that the 1394 snafu was an error on Mark Lumpkin's part and that Dishwire will soon be released and activated, even if in a beta unstable state, and that efforts to make it work well, whatever it takes, will be made.


I don't think Mark was down on the line covering up the 1394 ports on the new boxes going out, so I don't think it was a mistake on Marks part but the official change in the features of the box. Mark was just the lucky person that had the job of passing on the information that it was dead IMHO.

Be it the current line of not being able to make it work on the platform as it is now, Hollywood types making a fuss or spies from DirecTV who know, but I don't think Charlie will be changing his mind.


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## mattyro

This ahs to be the result of pressure from Hollywood. Hollywood simply wont tolerate digital copies of anything...never mind HD pics!!To be quite honest all I ever wanted was a typical TIVO (DVR) that could pause and record HD images. The PVR921 is as worth as much to me today as it did yesterday. If the price is dropped bcuz of this--even better!!!


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## strabismo

If there is one thing I have learned from reading these posts is that there a lot of whiners who post here. Everyone posts about the negatives. I have had my dish for some time now and I am perfectly happy with it. If I want to record something then I just put it on DVD. If you want the quality of digital go out and buy it. We should not want to pirate shows and eventually all the shows that we like will be out. I think the 921 is great and it does ecactly what I want. There are some instability issues, but I feel that they will be solved with time. I think if you are not happy leave. Good luck with cable or direct tv! :lol: If you do leave you will probably just ***** about your new company because obviously you won't be happy there either. Good luck to all.


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## RAD

strabismo said:


> If there is one thing I have learned from reading these posts is that there a lot of whiners who post here. Everyone posts about the negatives. I have had my dish for some time now and I am perfectly happy with it. If I want to record something then I just put it on DVD. If you want the quality of digital go out and buy it. We should not want to pirate shows and eventually all the shows that we like will be out. I think the 921 is great and it does ecactly what I want. There are some instability issues, but I feel that they will be solved with time. I think if you are not happy leave. Good luck with cable or direct tv! :lol: If you do leave you will probably just ***** about your new company because obviously you won't be happy there either. Good luck to all.


The point of all this is that Dish advertised a specific feature on the 921's told people that it would be coming then bang changed their minds and said to bad, it won't happen. Folks had spent $1K on this box expecting that this feature be present and now it will never be activated. That's the issue, the lack of integrity of Dish network.


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## metallicafreak

strabismo said:


> If there is one thing I have learned from reading these posts is that there a lot of whiners who post here. Everyone posts about the negatives. I have had my dish for some time now and I am perfectly happy with it. If I want to record something then I just put it on DVD. If you want the quality of digital go out and buy it. We should not want to pirate shows and eventually all the shows that we like will be out. I think the 921 is great and it does ecactly what I want. There are some instability issues, but I feel that they will be solved with time. I think if you are not happy leave. Good luck with cable or direct tv! :lol: If you do leave you will probably just ***** about your new company because obviously you won't be happy there either. Good luck to all.


This is hardly a case of whiners dude. 
'If you want the quality of digital go out and buy it'
Ok, can you tell me where I can buy a copy of the superbowl on DVHS? or Donnie Brasco on DVHS amongst the others I was saving to record to DVHS for my personal library. No one here wants to pirate as you insinuate by saying that we should not do so. We want fair usage and our timeshifting rights for our own personal use and nothing more. We were promised a functionality of the device and many people bought it over other choices because of it and now it was pulled away. 
FREAK!


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## lex61564

strabismo said:


> If there is one thing I have learned from reading these posts is that there a lot of whiners who post here. Everyone posts about the negatives. I have had my dish for some time now and I am perfectly happy with it. If I want to record something then I just put it on DVD. If you want the quality of digital go out and buy it. We should not want to pirate shows and eventually all the shows that we like will be out. I think the 921 is great and it does ecactly what I want. There are some instability issues, but I feel that they will be solved with time. I think if you are not happy leave. Good luck with cable or direct tv! :lol: If you do leave you will probably just ***** about your new company because obviously you won't be happy there either. Good luck to all.


Dude I never complain about anything, I have always backed the 921 and have been patient with the UN stability issues, I didn't have a problem when the caller Id was not working but I bought this thing with the impression the Dishwire would be active if I wanted a box without fire wire I would have waited for Tivo or other options, no one is WHINY here, this is one too many things going wrong here!


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## Mark Lamutt

Don, you know that I respect your opinion, and the opinion of many of the others of you who have worked along side me in this forum for the last few months. 

The fact of the matter is that there's nothing for me to resign from. I have put myself in this position on a purely voluntary basis in an effort to be a conduit between the early adopter users and the developers. The title is of my own devising and describes exactly what I do - act as liaison between Eldon and you. So, I suppose that I could shut down this forum and cut off the line of communication, but honestly I don't see what that would accomplish. So, I'm not going to do that. This fiasco came from the upper levels of management at Dish, not from the 921 software team. 

I suppose that I could resign from the beta program, but in my not so humble opinion, that would do nothing but hurt everyone with me not doing the testing that I do. So, I'm not going to do that either.

The fact is that I did find out about this a few days before you did. And, that I didn't say anything about it. The fact also is that you have no idea what I was doing behind the scenes, working to make this as right as possible for everyone. I spent a great deal of time on the phone with various parties trying to push for another alternative that would have been a hell of a lot better than what happened yesterday. But, none of that can happen now due to the way this all blew up. 

So, I completely support you guys if you want to go after getting your money back. If you choose not to trust me, and what I personally am doing here with this forum, then I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm not going to stop doing it because I very much believe that the work I'm doing is worthwhile. 

I was told the other day by the leader of the beta group at Dish that due to our efforts here in this forum, the 921 is at least 2 months ahead of where it would be if this forum didn't exist. To me, that's very significant. 

I tell you everything that I can, when I can. But, there will always be things that I know that I won't tell you. That's the nature of the trust that I've built with the developers and with the Dish executives. If that makes it so I'm not trustworthy to you, then you have other options out there. 

I do this only because I enjoy it, and because I think the work is important.


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## strabismo

Like I said you are still whining. Whatever is what I say to rest. Mark you do a fine job. Who wants a copy of the superbowl? How many times are you going to watch the tit flash...get a life! I also say go with direct TIVOHD and like I said before GOOD LUCK!! Donnie Brasco one word, ha!


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## the_tx_dude

DonLandis said:


> Mark-
> You know I have supported the 921 relentlessly since it's introduction in 2002. I own one and am quite happy with it's current and improving performance. But this Dishwire issue is not just about Dishwire or not. It is about integrity and the people who are in control of the products we buy. Since I do have my DVHS recording bases covered outside of the 921, having Dishwire is not as important to me as it is to some others but I have to take a stand on this and I stand with what's right. Dish employees clearly deceived us all with a Dishwire scam. Maybe it didn't start out that way but even at CES, they were claiming it would soon be activated. Not waiting for the HDTIVO and buying the 921 for me was based on Dishwire advantage. Therefore, I was lied to. They lied to me in order to secure my 921 business which also included me upgrading my service to $110 per month from previously $42 a month service.
> Having been deceived by these people I find I can no longer trust anything they say, nothing. No promises from a known liar. In addition, and Please, please do not take this wrong. I find that you being the "official liason" for 921 information from Dish Network, E* and Eldon, that I can't believe you either. I know you are well meaning and not of their character. I trust you are not. However, you are the messenger of their deceit and consequently, I have to say that I must doubt anything you deliver since, it appears to me that even you were deceived by your connections. Mark, you are not alone. I, too, had several insider connections I trusted at E*. They fed me the same misinformation and I now have to sever those relations. I have been embarrassed personally by their lack of integrity. I am ashamed I delivered and believed in what I was told and feel after sleeping on it for a night that I can no longer, in good conscious believe any promise that comes from Dish Network. I will only believe in what they are delivering now and consider any future announcements of products and service to be lies of deceit to gain unsuspecting customer business.
> 
> I respectfully request that you tender your resignation as official liason and preserve the respect most of us have for you. We are judged by the company we keep. In my opinion the only recourse now is for E* to reverse yesterdays position on this and announce that the 1394 snafu was an error on Mark Lumpkin's part and that Dishwire will soon be released and activated, even if in a beta unstable state, and that efforts to make it work well, whatever it takes, will be made. Beyond that change from yesterdays position, I will conclude, E* intentionally deceived it's customers and you, Mark, as you are working for them. How can we trust the message you deliver as liason is true?


I agree with most of what you articulated Don. I do not know how much Mark gets paid by Dish (if anything) but he provided a valuable source of information and knowledge about their products. That being said, from now on I will wonder if it is Dish misinformation and lies. If I were Mark I would not associate myself with the people who put one over on all of us.


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## John Quaglino

My question is this will the Local DTV Channel information be the next feature to be dumped. We still do not have it. Dish will not comment on when it will be released or what it will even be?

My considerations of purchasing the 921 over the HDTivo where based upon promised value. To me the 921 offered the promise of DVHS dump which I considered equal to the HDTivo's 2nd ATSC tuner. The only other feature I care about is the ability to time shift satellite and ATSC. Currently, I pay 4.99/month for the Dish DVR service. What am I getting in return? A clunky digital VCR! I have no name based recording! I have no season pass! I have no guide based information for my OTA analog or digital stations. I have no guide based way of recording my OTA digital stations.

Don't get me entirely wrong. I'm 60 percent satisfied with my 921 but I'm not happy I paid $1000 for it nor is it worth $1000 plus a montly DVR fee. With the Dishwire scrapped, it will never be worth the $1000 we paid for it. Why on earth would anybody buy a 921 over an HDTivo at the same price. What does the 921 bring to the table that the HDTivo does not?

My suggestion to Dish. Cut your loses. Release information on the local guide information that was promised. Specifically, what is the plan and when will it be implemented. DROP THE DVR FEE FROM THIS THING! That is the only thing that will make it have any value over the HDTivo. Advertise it as "Hey we have on less tuner, we don't have season pass, we don't have name based recording but hey, at least we don't charge you to use it!"


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## Matt Stevens

strabismo said:


> Like I said you are still whining. Whatever is what I say to rest. Mark you do a fine job. Who wants a copy of the superbowl? How many times are you going to watch the tit flash...get a life! I also say go with direct TIVOHD and like I said before GOOD LUCK!! Donnie Brasco one word, ha!


Your post is what we call trolling. You don't have a clue. In my own case, I know now that DISH was aware of this problem for weeks and that during that time, DISH employees who *were aware of the truth* lied to me (and many others) in order to secure my buying the 921.

Thank God I was able to find out the truth before my 30 days were up.

High level DISH employees have lied to us, many on the phone in answer to direct questioning. That is a disgrace. That is not acceptable. Any one saying we are being cry babies or anything else don't have a clue.


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## ggw2000

the_tx_dude said:


> I agree with most of what you articulated Don. I do not know how much Mark gets paid by Dish (if anything) but he provided a valuable source of information and knowledge about their products. That being said, from now on I will wonder if it is Dish misinformation and lies. If I were Mark I would not associate myself with the people who put one over on all of us.


Man, has this been a rush :lol: . As far as those who said that they bought this unit for the "dishwire", take it up with your state attorneys, your lawyer, or dish directly. Or sell the damn thing on ebay and get on with life! If you feel there is something better, go for it.
As far as bashing Mark, you obviously don't have a clue what he is working on or what this forum is trying to do. This is a SOFTWARE bug and resolution forum, NOT a hardware one. Mark works with the software people NOT the hardware people. He obviously got caught in the "middle" by trying to work outside his main thrust on the 921 (SOFTWARE) by trying to get Dish to do the right thing for everyone on the dishwire.
This thread (because it is hardware related) needs to be moved in my opinion.
Gerry


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## Matt Stevens

Gerry, you you do not know what you are talking about. No offense. But that's the truth. This smack the people who are understandably upset crap needs to stop.

I am not for anyone bashing Mark, by the way.


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## Capmeister

Why is Mark being beaten up over this!?!??!  GRRRR


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## Slordak

John Quaglino said:


> (...)
> DROP THE DVR FEE FROM THIS THING! That is the only thing that will make it have any value over the HDTivo. Advertise it as "Hey we have on less tuner, we don't have season pass, we don't have name based recording but hey, at least we don't charge you to use it!"


This is actually a really good suggestion. Considering that the 921s are not price subsidized, there's no real reason that Dish has to charge a PVR/DVR fee for the unit. With the loss of the DishWire, the claim that the 921 supports "Video on Demand" is even more questionnable, and the overall value and utility of the unit is decreased.

We should try and pass this up to Dish Network / Echostar corporate as a compromise for eliminating this functionality. There's no other effective way to compensate existing customers who bought it with the expectation that the DishWire would be active eventually (as was promised). Lowering the unit price doesn't give money back to the folks who paid $999 and supported the receiver during it's... extended beta... period.


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## metallicafreak

No one is bashing Mark, we are thankful for guys like him that help us all. No one is whining. I can watch the Patriots kick ass 1 million times dude. I had pizza during half time so never watch that part. Sorry, her 40+ year drooper does not interest me. 

Back off the offensive comments chump. Your opinion of what I or others like is irrelevant.


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## Interprises

ggw2000 said:


> As far as those who said that they bought this unit for the "dishwire", take it up with your state attorneys, your lawyer, or dish directly.


Oh I will, but that would go a good bit smoother if I exhaust every other option, short of legal action, first. Some of you people are no doubt _doormats_ in life. But, I'm sure when your ox is gored, you're more interested in justice. This is merely about false advertising, plain and simple.

I am new to this site, and I've found it very helpful. Much of the reason I became a supporter was because it appeared Dish had an official presence here. At this point, all I care to hear from Mark is whether he is in a position to help. In other words, are we on our own with this issue?

I purchased a TV with Firewire capability (no DVI, because of the disadvantages). I don't care that much about the digital recording capabilities, but I'm under the impression that a Firewire connection would offer better picture quality. It would also offer one path for audio and video. If I'm wrong, someone please let me know, or point me to a thread that covers the topic. STF but don't see specifics.

Those who are whining about the _whining_ do nothing but increase the heat in this thread.

Mark, just let us know if you can help. Don't you at the least see that this is a matter of false advertising?


----------



## erikbenz

DonLandis said:


> Mark-
> You know I have supported the 921 relentlessly since it's introduction in 2002. I own one and am quite happy with it's current and improving performance. But this Dishwire issue is not just about Dishwire or not. It is about integrity and the people who are in control of the products we buy. Since I do have my DVHS recording bases covered outside of the 921, having Dishwire is not as important to me as it is to some others but I have to take a stand on this and I stand with what's right. Dish employees clearly deceived us all with a Dishwire scam. Maybe it didn't start out that way but even at CES, they were claiming it would soon be activated. Not waiting for the HDTIVO and buying the 921 for me was based on Dishwire advantage. Therefore, I was lied to. They lied to me in order to secure my 921 business which also included me upgrading my service to $110 per month from previously $42 a month service.
> Having been deceived by these people I find I can no longer trust anything they say, nothing. No promises from a known liar. In addition, and Please, please do not take this wrong. I find that you being the "official liason" for 921 information from Dish Network, E* and Eldon, that I can't believe you either. I know you are well meaning and not of their character. I trust you are not. However, you are the messenger of their deceit and consequently, I have to say that I must doubt anything you deliver since, it appears to me that even you were deceived by your connections. Mark, you are not alone. I, too, had several insider connections I trusted at E*. They fed me the same misinformation and I now have to sever those relations. I have been embarrassed personally by their lack of integrity. I am ashamed I delivered and believed in what I was told and feel after sleeping on it for a night that I can no longer, in good conscious believe any promise that comes from Dish Network. I will only believe in what they are delivering now and consider any future announcements of products and service to be lies of deceit to gain unsuspecting customer business.
> 
> I respectfully request that you tender your resignation as official liason and preserve the respect most of us have for you. We are judged by the company we keep. In my opinion the only recourse now is for E* to reverse yesterdays position on this and announce that the 1394 snafu was an error on Mark Lumpkin's part and that Dishwire will soon be released and activated, even if in a beta unstable state, and that efforts to make it work well, whatever it takes, will be made. Beyond that change from yesterdays position, I will conclude, E* intentionally deceived it's customers and you, Mark, as you are working for them. How can we trust the message you deliver as liason is true?


Don,
Mark can't resign as he is a Dish Network Employee and is paid to hold us off. When I had issues with securing my 921 I was told by a Dish executive that this was the case. Telling lies is something that comes easy to Dish as I have been down similar roads to this more than once with them.

Erik


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## Ron Barry

Interprises said:


> Oh I will, but that would go a good bit smoother if I exhaust every other option, short of legal action, first. Some of you people are no doubt _doormats_ in life. But, I'm sure when your ox is gored, you're more interested in justice. This is merely about false advertising, plain and simple.
> 
> I am new to this site, and I've found it very helpful. Much of the reason I became a supporter was because it appeared Dish had an official presence here. At this point, all I care to hear from Mark is whether he is in a position to help. In other words, are we on our own with this issue?
> 
> I purchased a TV with Firewire capability (no DVI, because of the disadvantages). I don't care that much about the digital recording capabilities, but I'm under the impression that a Firewire connection would offer better picture quality. It would also offer one path for audio and video. If I'm wrong, someone please let me know, or point me to a thread that covers the topic. STF but don't see specifics.
> 
> Those who are whining about the _whining_ do nothing but increase the heat in this thread.
> 
> Mark, just let us know if you can help. Don't you at the least see that this is a matter of false advertising?


Mark is not employed by Dish and may or may not be in position to help.. If he is getten beat up on this issue, people should take a step back and think about who they are beaten up. Dish does watch this website, but they do not have any official capacity as I understand it.

As for the firewire issue you talke about. The promised firewire was only suppose to work with select hardware and I would have been very surprised that it would have worked with TVs. Maybe so, but its purpose was to work with DVHS decks.

For your reference firewire is a technology mechansim and does not define the transport protocal on the wire. So having two firewire devices does not insure that they will communicate properly with each other. For example Mitsibuishi uses firewire to communicate between different A/V equipment. If you were to hook up a Sony with fireware it most likely would not be able to control a Mits. receiver.

So in this case I don't think you are loosing anything because I don't think it would have worked had Dish did it. However, since we may never see this happen, one can never know for sure.


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## Interprises

WeeJavaDude said:


> For your reference firewire is a technology...


I really appreciate the response, WJD. That is the sort of information I need to make an informed decision. For me, since Firewire is an IEEE standard, I only looked for a TV, which supported that standard, and then I shopped for a DVR with IEEE 1394 support. So, going with a feature that was _standardized_, gave me some confidence regarding compatibility issues.

Anyway, thanks again!


----------



## Ron Barry

Double Posted... Removed...


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## JMikeF

Well, I hadn't planned to dump Dish for DirecTV, but something has happened along the way.......


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## Mark Lamutt

Like I said yesterday, this thread will get moved here in another day or 2. For now, I'm leaving it where it is.

Interprises, I've already said that I think this entire thing stinks to its core. If you've got some ideas how I might be able to help, I'm all ears here at this point. I was working on something that potentially could have helped but that's not a possibility anymore. For now, I'm waiting until everything falls the way it's going to and then see what I can do from there. 

Frankly, at this point, I could probably do more if I actually did work in a management position at Dish, rather than trying to work from the outside.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

erikbenz said:


> Don,
> Mark can't resign as he is a Dish Network Employee and is paid to hold us off. When I had issues with securing my 921 I was told by a Dish executive that this was the case. Telling lies is something that comes easy to Dish as I have been down similar roads to this more than once with them.
> 
> Erik


??? That's news to me...I'll have to give them a call and see where the hell my back pay is then...


----------



## Ron Barry

Interprises said:


> I really appreciate the response, WJD. That is the sort of information I need to make an informed decision. For me, since Firewire is an IEEE standard, I only looked for a TV, which supported that standard, and then I shopped for a DVR with IEEE 1394 support. So, going with a feature that was _standardized_, gave me some confidence regarding compatibility issues.
> 
> Anyway, thanks again!


Think of it like Ethernet. You can buy to PCs that both have ethernet but that does not mean that two applications that use Ethernet would be able to communicate with each other.

There are two pieces that both devices must included. One is the the physical transport layer and the other is the payload protocal on the wire. I have been burned a few times whan I bought two devices thinking they would work together only to learn someone was using a proprietary protocal. IN the A/V market I have found this to be more the norm than the exception.


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## Interprises

Thanks for your response, Mark - I'm going to read between the lines, regarding the question about "false advertising." I don't envy your position in this, at all. Please realize, I appreciate your efforts.

You use the word "Official" in your sig, so please clarify that for me. Are you employed by Dish, and if not, why in the world would you take all of this abuse, _free gratis_? No doubt, you're a very giving soul, if that's the case. For me, use of the word "Official" sounds as though you're employed or compensated in some way for your efforts, which are obviously extensive.


----------



## Jim Parker

Mark
I, for one, appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this project. Thanks. I am willing to accept that there are somethings that you have to keep to yourself and can't share with us as soon as you know about it. 

The firewire port to back up to tape was never a selling point for me. I am waiting for a recordable HDDVD. If at some point in time the 921 can be retrofitted with an HDDVD, I will be more than happy to spend money to do it at that time. If not, I will find some other way to accomplish this. On the whole, there are just not that many shows/movies that I want to keep permanent copies of. I have had the 921 since Dec 31, and have never had more than half of the disk space used.

With that said, I can certainly understand that firewire is important to some people and do not blame them for being very upset about this.

HD TIVO is not an option for me for the foreseeable future since DirecTV does not have a strong enough signal in Alaska. Unless I am mistaken, TIVO does not work with Dish. The local cable company just came out with an HD box, but has only two channels, no announced future additions and locals in HD are at least 2 years off.

Eliminating the VOD fee is good for many people, but I have the AEP and do not pay the $5. Getting rid of the $5 PVR would be nice, but I don't think that this is going to happen. Unlike some one else on this forum, I am not going to hold my breath until I turn blue.  

As long as Elden is working on the bug fixes, I will stay with the 921. If, in a couple of years, a better box is available, I will buy it for the living room and move the 921 to the HDTV in the bedroom. However, I doubt that I will be an earlier adopter of another Dish box. If the bugs in the 921 are not fixed by the time the locals are available in HD, then I will sell the 921 and switch back to cable.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Interprises

WeeJavaDude said:


> One is the the physical transport layer...


Man! I thought when I finished all that certification stuff, I could get away from that OSI Model. Guess not... Thanks for the example, WJD.


----------



## Dan L.

Mark

Please keep up what I think is valueable work and info.

Folks don't shoot the messsenger. Mark didn't promise firwire Dish did that.

Dan


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## erikbenz

Mark Lamutt said:


> Like I said yesterday, this thread will get moved here in another day or 2. For now, I'm leaving it where it is.
> 
> Interprises, I've already said that I think this entire thing stinks to its core. If you've got some ideas how I might be able to help, I'm all ears here at this point. I was working on something that potentially could have helped but that's not a possibility anymore. For now, I'm waiting until everything falls the way it's going to and then see what I can do from there.
> 
> Frankly, at this point, I could probably do more if I actually did work in a management position at Dish, rather than trying to work from the outside.


Notice Mark says he is not a MANAGER.... interesting but he is an EMPLOYEE who is not in management.

Erik


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## lex61564

strabismo said:


> Like I said you are still whining. Whatever is what I say to rest. Mark you do a fine job. Who wants a copy of the superbowl? How many times are you going to watch the tit flash...get a life! I also say go with direct TIVOHD and like I said before GOOD LUCK!! Donnie Brasco one word, ha!


If you don't have a problem with the Dishwire then what are you doing on this tread? Go find a thread you belong in. I collect movie not long boring ass football games so you can watch you own tit flash punk.


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## BobMurdoch

OK, I hate the idea that we won't be able to archive HD content, BUT....

1. How many of us own 921s AND DVHS machines already? I was considering getting a DVHS unit but they have been hovering north of the $1000 level last time I checked and it wasn't feasible to me

2. If they plan on embracing an HD DVD alternative instead, then I'm all for it. Panasonic is selling a fair amount of SD DVD burners with hard drives inside them so it is a feasible plan if they want to go with a burner, although I would hope they go for BluRay or HD-DVD and not settle for downconverting to SD.

3. Even though DVHS is the only media you can buy for HD movies right now (I'm discounting Microsoft's Media Player 9 solution for the sake of argument), I can't see going to magnetic media again due to degradation issues. If I never have to demagnetize heads or disentangle a video tape ever again I will be a happy man.

4. That being said, I'm all for banding together to see if we can get something out of E* for our troubles..... And I'm not talking PPV movie coupons...... Unfortunately a legal route probably isn't in the cards due to the small number of users who have actually gotten 921s installed in their homes to this point which make any litigation solution cost prohibitive......

5. We keep hearing that E* has seen the light and will start to reward premium customers instead of the Walmart customer they have been chasing the last few years to pump up the subscriber numbers, but this is another case where they are seriously mishandling the high end customer. Although most have already bailed for greener pastures, this risks alienating those who have stuck with them to this point.


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## lex61564

metallicafreak said:


> No one is bashing Mark, we are thankful for guys like him that help us all. No one is whining. I can watch the Patriots kick ass 1 million times dude. I had pizza during half time so never watch that part. Sorry, her 40+ year drooper does not interest me.
> 
> Back off the offensive comments chump. Your opinion of what I or others like is irrelevant.


Amen Dude!


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## erikbenz

BobMurdoch said:


> OK, I hate the idea that we won't be able to archive HD content, BUT....
> 
> 1. How many of us own 921s AND DVHS machines already? I was considering getting a DVHS unit but they have been hovering north of the $1000 level last time I checked and it wasn't feasible to me
> 
> 2. If they plan on embracing an HD DVD alternative instead, then I'm all for it. Panasonic is selling a fair amount of SD DVD burners with hard drives inside them so it is a feasible plan if they want to go with a burner, although I would hope they go for BluRay or HD-DVD and not settle for downconverting to SD.
> 
> 3. Even though DVHS is the only media you can buy for HD movies right now (I'm discounting Microsoft's Media Player 9 solution for the sake of argument), I can't see going to magnetic media again due to degradation issues. If I never have to demagnetize heads or disentangle a video tape ever again I will be a happy man.
> 
> 4. That being said, I'm all for banding together to see if we can get something out of E* for our troubles..... And I'm not talking PPV movie coupons...... Unfortunately a legal route probably isn't in the cards due to the small number of users who have actually gotten 921s installed in their homes to this point which make any litigation solution cost prohibitive......
> 
> 5. We keep hearing that E* has seen the light and will start to reward premium customers instead of the Walmart customer they have been chasing the last few years to pump up the subscriber numbers, but this is another case where they are seriously mishandling the high end customer. Although most have already bailed for greener pastures, this risks alienating those who have stuck with them to this point.


I fully agree on this issue. I would like to see a Blue Ray type solution but with their track record I tend to belive it will not occur in the 921 box.

It just rubs me the wrong way to be lied to constantly when I am willing to spend this kind of money.

I feel that Dish is only interested in the $30 a month customer and we are here to be fleeced.

Erik


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Interprises said:


> You use the word "Official" in your sig, so please clarify that for me. Are you employed by Dish, and if not, why in the world would you take all of this abuse, _free gratis_? No doubt, you're a very giving soul, if that's the case. For me, use of the word "Official" sounds as though you're employed or compensated in some way for your efforts, which are obviously extensive.


I am not employeed by Dish (although I probably should be...). I use the word "official" in my sig line for a couple of reasons. First, because I run the "Official" 921 support forum for the 921, as recognized by the 921 software developers. The relationship that I have with them goes beyond an informal sharing of information. It exists in an "official" recognized capacity within the technical/engineering division of Dish Network. Second, I am the point of contact for the developers when they need specific information from the online community. I am the conduit used to pass information back and forth between you and them.

I'm not compensated for this effort. Why do I do it? Days like today make me wonder sometimes, but the basic reason I do this is because this is the kind of thing that I enjoy. It's very different from what I do in my daily job, so it acts as a release from the pressures of normal life. I'm also doing this as kind of a test case to see if an outside of Dish Network real support forum can work, and if it's beneficial to Dish and to the users. So far, I know for a fact that it's beneficial to Dish, and I think it's been pretty beneficial to you guys as well. There's never been a partnership formed like this before, and I wanted to see if it could work. There's been bumps along the way, but so far I think it's working.

An extension of your question is also why I beta test the 921. I do that because I very much enjoy breaking things. And, I'm very good at it. In the last week, I've sent 20 reports in on L180, and I suspect I'll send 21-26 or so in tonight after I watch survivor. I'm very good at rooting out the "corner cases" - cases that are outside of the norm for most users (except for people around here... ).

My wife shakes her head a lot these days, thinking I'm nuts for doing this. But hey, most of the time, this is fun to me. It's what I enjoy doing. I get to help you guys out, some of the time more than you can get by calling Dish. I like that.


----------



## SimpleSimon

Peluso said:


> That will never happen. Not just with dish, but with any company.





RAD said:


> It's been a long time, but if I remember correctly, back in the late 60's IBM was told to stop preannouncing things that were late or didn't happen as part of a settlement with the feds. This was done because they preannounced things that made folks not purchase products from another company because IBM would be coming out with such and such, and sometimes it didn't happen.


You are correct. That's where I got the idea. The term we used for IBM's tactics was FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). 

We WILL prevail in this mess!


----------



## Jerry G

strabismo said:


> If there is one thing I have learned from reading these posts is that there a lot of whiners who post here.


You have clearly demonstrated that you have absolutely NO clue as to what is going on here and why people who do not complain and whine and now complaining about the Firewire situation. You utter lack of understanding is so extreme that it would be a waste of time to even try to explain it to you.


----------



## metallicafreak

Mark,
We are all behind you. We are just hurt and angry and sometimes type with that anger and it comes out wrong.
Keep up the good work man.
FREAK!


----------



## Interprises

Mark Lamutt said:


> I am not employeed by Dish (although I probably should be...).


I really appreciate your very thorough answer, Mark. Thank you. I know you're busy, especially today. :_)
_


----------



## Jerry G

DonLandis said:


> Mark-
> You know I have supported the 921 relentlessly since it's introduction in 2002. I own one and am quite happy with it's current and improving performance. But this Dishwire issue is not just about Dishwire or not. It is about integrity and the people who are in control of the products we buy.


You are so correct. As you, and many others know, especially on the AVS forum, I have been one of Dish's staunchest supporters. The Superdish fiasco gave me pause and made me wonder about the intelligence of those who run Dish. But still, I stuck with them and purchased a 921 and two 811's. But this Firewire situation has demonstrated to me beyond a doubt that Dish is completely lost in the ethers. They don't know their customers. They don't care about their customers. They don't know whether to turn right or left.

Dish is a company that I no longer want to deal with. For the moment, I'm not making any changes as the direction I want to go in isn't clear yet. But by the end of the year, there will be a switch to either DirecTV, Voom, or cable, depending upon how HD programming and PVRs pan out. But Dish will be history. Even if I end up eating the cost of the Dish equipment, I don't care. I will not give Dish my subscription money any longer than I have to.


----------



## SimpleSimon

strabismo said:


> ... We should not want to pirate shows and eventually all the shows that we like will be out. ...


I don't think any of us that are able to afford the 921 tend to want to risk our ass-ets because of pirating. As for me, when we were thinking the delay in releasing DishWire was legal, and when discussing the possibility of a DVD burner, I proposed (more than once) that if Hollywood was the problem that Dish just allow us to offload the encrypted video files that could only be reloaded back into the 921. That would be an acceptable solution for most of us, I'm sure.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

metallicafreak said:


> Mark,
> We are all behind you. We are just hurt and angry and sometimes type with that anger and it comes out wrong.
> Keep up the good work man.
> FREAK!


I've developed a pretty think skin over the years doing thinks like this...no worries.


----------



## SimpleSimon

metallicafreak said:


> Mark,
> We are all behind you. We are just hurt and angry and sometimes type with that anger and it comes out wrong.
> Keep up the good work man.


Yes, Mark - we DO appreciate you! I've been "near" where you are on this, and empathize. It can be horribly frustrating, but please stick with us!


----------



## Kagato

If it is a hardware problem I doubt it's the firewire port itself. Even a cheap bargin bin firewire card can control a JVC deck enough to make a recording using Windows XP and a VB application tied into directX. You don't have to be able to control the AV/C portions of the deck (like channel changing). You just have to be able to make it go into record mode. 

What does happen is you need to have the unencrypted TS stream, formated correctly, ready to go. If you don't you'll fail recording. The TS streams are typically stored in the same format as it comes off the satelite. A layer of encyption is added, most likely via the hardware from the Broadcom chipset.

My guess is this is where the problems are. You have a whole mess of things which have to work together in order to make the DVHS dealie work and work well. My guess that this is the area in which things broke. I'd also guess that if dish was to choose not encypting content on the hard drive (which couldn't get there in the first place unless you were a valid subscriber) then a software workaround could be found. Afterall, this is essentially what Tivo hackers do to enable video sharing on their DirecTivos (which also uses many of the same broadcom chipsets).


----------



## jsanders

I would like to clarify something here. I don't believe that we were lied to. I genuinely believe that the *intent* was to turn on firewire ports. There is good evidence of this, namely, that there are actual firewire ports on my 921. If they never intended to turn them on, they wouldn't have put the ports on in the first place.

It would have been a lie if there was never *intent* to turn on the ports.

According to Mark, he learned about this a few days ago, and was trying to broker a better solution than to have the whole thing leaked out by a couple of people yesterday. In no way does this mean that Mark covered up anything, as he said he was trying to mitigate the situation.

It would have been a "lie" if there had never been any *intent* to turn on the ports. There obviously was intent, as they spent money to put the ports on the motherboard.

Is it possibly a coverup by someone? Maybe. It sounds like they were still discussing what to do about the problem until just a few days ago. It doesn't sound like a coverup to me.

It sounds like somewhere along the line someone made a HUGE MISTAKE! If they are concerened about legal issues, then the mistake was putting the ports on the product in the first place. If there is a hardware issue, then mistake clearly lies with the engineer who did the board design, and manager of the board. 

It is very unfortunate, however, Mark never lied to us about anything. It doesn't appear that dish lied to us. A mistake was made, and there was possibly (??) coverup for a few days.

Unfortuantely, all those people that wanted to record to DVHS got the proverbial shaft. It is unfortunate for those that already spent money on a DVHS recorder. I know VSSLL was trying to bundle them together at one point......

A lot of us are upset right now, and there is good reason to be. We just have to decide where we want to go from here.....


----------



## Interprises

As long as we're in clarifying mode...

1. Obviously, I'm not upset with Mark, and I think he does an outstanding job.

2. My beef deals with the fact that Dish Network released a product that was not ready for prime time. Had I known about DBSTalk, prior to paying for and having the unit installed, I would have reconsidered the purchase.

3. Had I known that the PDF brochure on the Dish Network (still there by the way) web site was not accurate regarding Firewire support, I would definitely have passed on ordering the 921. I was very happy with DirecTV and had been for years. The only reason I considered Dish was because of the Firewire based DVR. I could have waited for the new TiVo, and just upgraded my existing TiVo account.

4. Just in principle, alone, I have a real problem with Dish Network using a brochure on their web site that misrepresents the features available on their product. That is why I will pursue this further, outside of this venue. They should have removed the misleading information the moment they saw that it would be problematical to release a bug free 921 onto the market.

I've never purchased a piece of audio/video hardware that has been so incredibly "incomplete" for sale to the consumer. The project manager for the 921 should never be allowed to manage another project, anywhere.


----------



## jsanders

Interprises said:


> I've never purchased a piece of audio/video hardware that has been so incredibly "incomplete" for sale to the consumer. The project manager for the 921 should never be allowed to manage another project, anywhere.


It is the person that gave the authority to ship the 921 that is the problem. I can just hear a product manager saying, "No! We're NOT ready!". Then someone else deciding to ship it anyway. The first published ship date was Nov. 1, 2003. A couple managed to get shipped around the end of December, and the product was delayed. It would be nice to know who said to "ship it". I've never bought a consumer product this buggy either.

I think we all agree that Dish needs to remove the firewire ports from their spec in the brochure if they are not going to activate them.


----------



## VTDishguy

strabismo said:


> If there is one thing I have learned from reading these posts is that there a lot of whiners who post here. Everyone posts about the negatives. I have had my dish for some time now and I am perfectly happy with it. If I want to record something then I just put it on DVD. If you want the quality of digital go out and buy it. We should not want to pirate shows and eventually all the shows that we like will be out. I think the 921 is great and it does ecactly what I want. There are some instability issues, but I feel that they will be solved with time. I think if you are not happy leave. Good luck with cable or direct tv! :lol: If you do leave you will probably just ***** about your new company because obviously you won't be happy there either. Good luck to all.


You Dish apologists crack me up, you can drop a grand on something that doesn't work and it doesn't even phase you. I went to dish last august because I wanted HD and better PQ than cable. Well guess what, I didn't get either, Dish can yell all they want about 100 percent digital quality but it doesn't exist. I also got [email protected]#SSed waiting for HD programming and watching them role out shopping networks, horse racing, religious and foreigner channels, all the while the customers who are waiting for actual HD content are left twisting in the wind while Dish whines about bandwidth. I dropped dish because of this I had the AEP pack with locals, four receivers and when I asked if they are going to be running a special for current customers on the 921 the CSR almost laughed. Now before anyone says "well all you want is a free receiver and Dish needs to make money" or whatever, if you relay think that a 921 costs Dish 1000 dollars I have got a bridge to sell ya. The fact is that they could easily run a special on it for current customers but they won't because once you are signed up, they don't care about you. I have recently tore the dish off my house and went back to cable. Guess what, and I hate to burst your 100 percent digital bubble, but my cable co. has upgraded to all fiber optic and the PQ is better than dish on all the channels, significantly so on some. Also I currently have a RSN in HD, HBO, Showtime, Starz, Max, CBS, NBC in HD, and in may they are rolling out ESPN, Discovery, INHD1+2, HDNET and HDNET Movies. They are also going to roll out the local fox and ABC when they finally go HD and they are currently negotiating the contracts for PBS HD and they have said they are going to roll out any HD stations as they come along. And Guess what, unlike Dish they have delivered on their HD promises so far and I have no reason to believe they won't again. Also they are currently testing a two tuner HD DVR and it is going to be released over the summer guess what I don't have to drop a grand on it, I just have to exchange my HD box for it and guess what, the monthly charge is 6.99, only one dollar more than your "VOD" fee from dish. So stay with Dish if your happy, but don't get down on people because they are not, when I am watching Crystal Clear HD programming, you will be watching your fuzzy 100 digital shopping channels.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

jsanders said:


> It is the person that gave the authority to ship the 921 that is the problem. I can just hear a product manager saying, "No! We're NOT ready!". Then someone else deciding to ship it anyway. The first published ship date was Nov. 1, 2003. A couple managed to get shipped around the end of December, and the product was delayed. It would be nice to know who said to "ship it". I've never bought a consumer product this buggy either.
> 
> I think we all agree that Dish needs to remove the firewire ports from their spec in the brochure if they are not going to activate them.


For the record, that's exactly what happened. I was also in there screaming "No It's Not Ready!"


----------



## Mark Lamutt

VTDishguy said:


> ...snip...Guess what, and I hate to burst your 100 percent digital bubble, but my cable co. has upgraded to all fiber optic and the PQ is better than dish on all the channels, significantly so on some. Also I currently have a RSN in HD, HBO, Showtime, Starz, Max, CBS, NBC in HD, and in may they are rolling out ESPN, Discovery, INHD1+2, HDNET and HDNET Movies. They are also going to roll out the local fox and ABC when they finally go HD and they are currently negotiating the contracts for PBS HD and they have said they are going to roll out any HD stations as they come along. And Guess what, unlike Dish they have delivered on their HD promises so far and I have no reason to believe they won't again. Also they are currently testing a two tuner HD DVR and it is going to be released over the summer guess what I don't have to drop a grand on it, I just have to exchange my HD box for it and guess what, the monthly charge is 6.99, only one dollar more than your "VOD" fee from dish. So stay with Dish if your happy, but don't get down on people because they are not, when I am watching Crystal Clear HD programming, you will be watching your fuzzy 100 digital shopping channels.


Welcome to DBSTalk, VTDishGuy. We're happy for you. No go troll in another thread. This one is about the 921 dishwire issue, not how great cable is in your area.


----------



## scottchez

Remember those Hard Drive Expansion ports on the back of the 501 and 508.

Never happened. What a waist of money to install the port and wire it in at the factory. Dont they plan or test these ports?


----------



## jsanders

scottchez said:


> Remember those Hard Drive Expansion ports on the back of the 501 and 508.
> 
> Never happened. What a waist of money to install the port and wire it in at the factory. Dont they plan or test these ports?


Man, I would love to have a waist of money, I'm sure others would too. I'm sure we wouldn't waste it! :lol:


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## Mark Lamutt

ah...some much needed humor... :lol:


----------



## RAD

jsanders said:


> It is the person that gave the authority to ship the 921 that is the problem. I can just hear a product manager saying, "No! We're NOT ready!". Then someone else deciding to ship it anyway. The first published ship date was Nov. 1, 2003. A couple managed to get shipped around the end of December, and the product was delayed. It would be nice to know who said to "ship it". I've never bought a consumer product this buggy either.
> 
> I think we all agree that Dish needs to remove the firewire ports from their spec in the brochure if they are not going to activate them.


There's some truth to this based on my 811 experience. Right after it was released I called in a bunch of problems with it. This landed me with talking directly to one of the engineers working on the product. He said that they really wanted more time before shipping it out but management said to get it out the door so out it went.

You need to remember, 4th quarter last year, Dish didn't have anything new going out the door for the holiday shopping season. If I remember correctly, even Charlie mentioned in a confrence call with the wall street boys that Dish screwed up on this and said it was his fault. So someone was under pressure to get some new products out there and now their paying for it with some unhappy customers.


----------



## Ronald K

Not only has Dish lied to us regarding "Dishwire", they have also deceived us from the very first day that they released the 921 to us unsuspecting users.

Upon initially turning my 921 on a few months ago, it only took me a few minutes to realize that the device had major problems. Dish certainly had to know of every short coming the unit had when they made the decision to sell it to me.

Now it is many months later and my unit is as unstable today as it was on the first day I had it. (The prior download was much more stable than the current one.)

Only a bunch of con artists would dupe the unsuspecting public the way that they did. Only a bunch of low life cowards would use a very nice and obviously caring individual like Mark Lamutt to take the abuse from us because they are to yellow to deal directly with us.

This latest firewire issue is the icing on the cake. Firewire was the only reason that I and probably many others bought the 921 instead of waiting for the fuller featured HDTivo.

We have been duped.

Charlie - are you part of this con? If not, you better immediately step up to the plate and offer our money back. It is obvious that your technical people are in an area that is way beyond their abilities. Cut your loses now and sue the crap out of the developers.

Mark - You are a terrific guy and I truly thank you for your efforts. Don't let Don's comments or others bother you. A few years ago Don was a very helpful person on these forums. Unfortunately as time went on he seems to have fallen in love with himself and has reached a point that he probably truly believes that you care what he thinks.


----------



## kmcnamara

VTDishguy said:


> You Dish apologists crack me up, you can drop a grand on something that doesn't work and it doesn't even phase you. I went to dish last august because I wanted HD and better PQ than cable. Well *guess what*, I didn't get either, Dish can yell all they want about 100 percent digital quality but it doesn't exist. I also got [email protected]#SSed waiting for HD programming and watching them role out shopping networks, horse racing, religious and foreigner channels, all the while the customers who are waiting for actual HD content are left twisting in the wind while Dish whines about bandwidth. I dropped dish because of this I had the AEP pack with locals, four receivers and when I asked if they are going to be running a special for current customers on the 921 the CSR almost laughed. Now before anyone says "well all you want is a free receiver and Dish needs to make money" or whatever, if you relay think that a 921 costs Dish 1000 dollars I have got a bridge to sell ya. The fact is that they could easily run a special on it for current customers but they won't because once you are signed up, they don't care about you. I have recently tore the dish off my house and went back to cable. *Guess what*, and I hate to burst your 100 percent digital bubble, but my cable co. has upgraded to all fiber optic and the PQ is better than dish on all the channels, significantly so on some. Also I currently have a RSN in HD, HBO, Showtime, Starz, Max, CBS, NBC in HD, and in may they are rolling out ESPN, Discovery, INHD1+2, HDNET and HDNET Movies. They are also going to roll out the local fox and ABC when they finally go HD and they are currently negotiating the contracts for PBS HD and they have said they are going to roll out any HD stations as they come along. And *Guess what*, unlike Dish they have delivered on their HD promises so far and I have no reason to believe they won't again. Also they are currently testing a two tuner HD DVR and it is going to be released over the summer *guess what *  I don't have to drop a grand on it, I just have to exchange my HD box for it and *guess what*, the monthly charge is 6.99, only one dollar more than your "VOD" fee from dish. So stay with Dish if your happy, but don't get down on people because they are not, when I am watching Crystal Clear HD programming, you will be watching your fuzzy 100 digital shopping channels.


Wow! You sound just like my 4-year-old. "Guess What?" "Guess what?" "Guess what?" Serenity Now!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Killfile

Neutron said:


> Guess what, their CSR's aren't even better..... They can do whatever they want and they aren't in violation of the contract, but if we do something we are. I'm being pushed to pay a $240 cancellation fee because I felt the issue was with them dropping channels without a proper announcement they were in violation of the contract.


To be fair, the typical CSR doesn't have authorization to even consider waiving that $240 fee. You'd have to demand someone with more authority before that ever happened.

Secondly, the contract is.... well... a contract. It's a legaly binding agreement between you and Dish Network. If you didn't like what it said perhaps signing it wasn't the best move you could make. The contract as written allows EchoStar a huge amount of leeway and the customer very little. If that bothers you then I'd recomend considering other options for television service (or going with the Digital Home Advantage promo -- no commitment)

Last, the Viacom drop was announced by Viacom and by Dish on various channels. Viacom ran banners on their channels and Dish ran coverage on channel 101 leading up to the drop. The information was made available. What you feel about Dish's handeling of the issue does not equate to a legitimate contractual dispute.


----------



## pjmrt

Mark Lamutt said:


> All I can say is that originally they were designed to work, but something happened along the way in the process that became a real problem.
> 
> I'm not trying to defend anyone here - just pointing out that they didn't set out to end up here.


I understand, but there is a point where Dish's credibility gets lost. If I buy a new car with a radio - I expect it either to work or the dealer to tell me upfront that it doesn't. The implication from Dish is that it would (or at least could) eventually work. If that car didn't have the wiring to make the radio work in the first place, you'd better believe some lawyers would be getting calls, maybe the attorney general. There are laws w.r.t. false and misleading advertising. I personally don't buy items with the "possible to do later vaporware feature". Nevertheless, I expect the lawyers to have a field day with this unless Dish does some mighty fancy footwork to fix this.


----------



## DMitchell

First, I wish to thank Mark for all his efforts.

In anticipation of purchasing the 921 in December, with announced future capability to archive to a JVC DVHS recorder, I purchased a JVC DVHS recorder in November. 

Maybe everyone didn't want to archive HD, but many of us did. 

It seems illogical to me that DISH has made this decision. Even if there is a current hardware problem, software could disable the on-board firewire ports, a new PCI card could be designed and fitted in the expansion slot to resolve the problem. It would have been better solution for DISH to advise us of the problem, ask our patience, than for most of us to be abandoned.

There are significant investments made by many of us, including sticking with DISH as a progressive provider of digital equipment and content.

I hope DISH/ECHOSTAR will reconsider their decision. I would accept a apology and a commitment to resolve.

Dennis


----------



## Frank Z

Hey Mark....You're Doin' Fine!

Sorry About Having To Yell So Loudly, Just Want To Make Sure You Got The Message Over All The Whining! :lol:


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Illogical decisions are often made when forced into crisis mode...


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Frank Z said:


> Hey Mark....You're Doin' Fine!
> 
> Sorry About Having To Yell So Loudly, Just Want To Make Sure You Got The Message Over All The Whining! :lol:


:lol:


----------



## Throwbot

Mark Lamutt said:


> Illogical decisions are often made when forced into crisis mode...


"Logic and practical information do not seem to apply here." 
Spock, A Piece of the Action, Stardate 4598.0, Episode 49 :sure:


----------



## Skates

I've been a Dish Network customer since 1998.

I've wanted a 921 since the concept was first announced, but when they actually became available, I didn't order one right away. My experience with Dish told me that I shouldn't buy it until it had been "out" for a while.

Am I ever glad I made that decision, especially after what I've read today.

Although I have firewire capability on my TV, the "dishwire" ports were never of importance to me, but that's not the point. I'm absolutely fed up with Dish's "we'll just keep quiet about this and no one will notice" attitude.

After watching how this whole fiasco has been handled, I'm seriously considering moving to DirecTV and getting an HD Tivo. But who knows? I could end up with similar problems if I go that route.

All I want is a two-tuner HD DVR that works. Reliably. :soapbox:


----------



## VTDishguy

Mark Lamutt said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk, VTDishGuy. We're happy for you. No go troll in another thread. This one is about the 921 dishwire issue, not how great cable is in your area.


Who is trolling? I was stating a fact, dish has not come through on any of their promises regarding programing, equipment anything, if you guys can`t see that than you are blind, I was mearly stating the fact that Dish is no longer the leader in ANYTHING let alone HD. The 921 is an extremly expensive POS that dish is scrambling to fix. BTW I don`t care what the thread orignaly started as, it as turned into something quite different, it has turned into a disscusion about how Dish does not meet their promises. I am sorry but the fact is that Dish has slipped badly in the last couple of months.



kmcnamara said:


> Wow! You sound just like my 4-year-old. "Guess What?" "Guess what?" "Guess what?" Serenity Now!!!!!!!!!!


Of course the person who doesn't have anything to argue automatically returns to personal attacks. sorry buddy, but despite your pathetic attempt to respond, the form of my post does not take away it's validity.



Killfile said:


> Last, the Viacom drop was announced by Viacom and by Dish on various channels. Viacom ran banners on their channels and Dish ran coverage on channel 101 leading up to the drop. The information was made available. What you feel about Dish's handeling of the issue does not equate to a legitimate contractual dispute.


This is actualy false, it is true that Viacom did put a scroll on their channels, HOWEVER, Dish blacked out the scroll. You see Dish did not want us to see the other side of the story. they wanted to contiune to push the idea that it was little ol Dish against big bad Viacom wich in realty was [email protected] Dish is a huge company that only cares about one thing, their profits anyone who thinks any differently is kidding themselves.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

VTDishguy said:


> Who is trolling? I was stating a fact, dish has not come through on any of their promises regarding programing, equipment anything, if you guys can`t see that than you are blind, I was mearly stating the fact that Dish is no longer the leader in ANYTHING let alone HD. The 921 is an extremly expensive POS that dish is scrambling to fix. BTW I don`t care what the thread orignaly started as, it as turned into something quite different, it has turned into a disscusion about how Dish does not meet thier promises. I am sorry but the fact is that Dish has slipped badly in the last couple of months.


I had no problem with that part of your post. That was very much in line with the rest of the thread. When you then posted 20 lines describing how much better your cable company is than Dish, that's what I had the problem with.


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## VTDishguy

Mark Lamutt said:


> I had no problem with that part of your post. That was very much in line with the rest of the thread. When you then posted 20 lines describing how much better your cable company is than Dish, that's what I had the problem with.


Fair enough, I am sorry


----------



## Mark Lamutt

No worries...been that kind of day around here...


----------



## jsanders

VTDishguy said:


> Of course the person who doesn't have anything to argue automatically returns to personal attacks. sorry buddy, but despite your pathetic attempt to respond, the form of my post does not take away it's validity.


Isn't that a personal attack also?

You don't have a 921. You don't subscribe to Dish Network. You said you are very happy with your cable subscriptiion. Why are you posting here??


----------



## Interprises

jsanders said:


> It is the person that gave the authority to ship the 921 that is the problem. I can just hear a product manager saying, "No! We're NOT ready!". Then someone else deciding to ship it anyway.


I can see that for a few units, but over, and over, and over again? Maybe you're right, but this really sounds like a PM gave a go-ahead that shouldn't be given, or someone above the PM. That's certainly possible.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Remember Ms. Soyoroa (sp) Cartwright? And how she's no longer working for E*... rumors were flying around that she had something to do with it.


----------



## DonLandis

Mark-

Thankl you for understanding my thoughts on this whole mess, especially your relationship with Dish. I did find it amusing how some people view your position as an employee and that is why you can't resign. They must think you are a slave or worse, working for the mafia. LOL.

Anyway, Just for the record, I do understand what it is you do and appreciate your efforts greatly. However, I also believe that when one works for a company, people, who are not well thought of by the constituents because of a lack of character then it becomes very difficult for you to maintain your good reputation. And, I do disagree that as a volunteer you can resign. Do we want you to? It all depends on what your perceived value is to the community you serve. I do have to question this now in light of the recent Dishwire announcement by Scott that you had to come in behind his lead with explanation. That coupled with your admittance that you were aware and didn't say anything(understandably due to NDA) leaves me in a quandry as to the bottom line worth of this effort. You need to question why you are bound by secrecy of the deception when Mark Lumkin makes you look bad by delivering to Scott the lead story. IMO, Mark Lumpkin not only delivered a devastating PR blow to E* but also made you out to be deceptive as well. It's this kind of stuff that causes good people to resign. 
Considering the nature of what was done and the great things you have done for free for E* and this 921 as well as the support you deliver to Eldon, you need to address this with a scathing response to the upper powers at E* and get some sort of commitment in writing that you not be circumvented like was done this week. Otherwise, as I see it you are just being taken advantage of.


FWIW- I did receive a response from one of my contacts today regarding the reasons for this decision. I have no NDA 

It was said that the implementation of the Dishwire in the 921 depended upon other producers of 1394 devices to cooperate in the effort. They ( I read this as Mits and JVC) did not come through with this cooperation and made the integration of the 921 Dishwire problematic.
Secondly, it was said that the integration of the Dishwire involved layers of software stacks and that was a problem. ( Don't ask me what that means because I don't understand the terminology "software stacks") Finally, it was said that there were concerns over the perfect implementation of copy protection requirements that were difficult to insure.
I take it three areas of technical difficulty that made for the decision to drop the support for this feature in his explanation.

Do I believe this response? I won't comment here but leave this up to you all to decide if you want to believe these are the sole reasons or not. 

Thanks again, Mark for all your efforts and for understanding my reasoning. I respect you for any decision you make on this and I will not think ill of you regardless of your decision. You are correct that you may be able to make changes, connected as you are now. If we see changes, then you desreve the credit for making them listen.


----------



## LOBO2999

I read earlier in the thred someone was asking if vooms PVR here is what I have found out about it. Its DVR is coming sometime in the 3 Quater of this year here are some of the features "VOOM's HD Home Media Network is being developed as state-of-the-art and the first of its kind anywhere in the world. VOOM will have the only DBS service with both HD DVR and Multiple HD sessions networked off a single drive over the in-home network. This will be the most advanced HD home product available," said Michael Collette, chief executive officer, Ucentric Systems. "We are very pleased to partner with VOOM in bringing this highly innovative product offering to market." 

Additional key features of the VOOM HD Home Media Network will include: 
Standard DVR functionality: stop, start, rewind and fast-forward at the touch of a button 
Separate television control: pause and rewind a program on one television, while continuing to watch the same program on another television 
Record and play - whenever: record a program in one room and play it in another, at any time 
"Follow Me": pause a television program in one room and then continue watching the same program in another room 
Content organization: organize recorded content in folders and set parental controls that download automatically to each television in the house 
Music and photos: upload both music and photos from a computer, which can then be managed through on-screen television menus and enjoyed anywhere in the house


----------



## djnmya

Why wasnt this issue with the 921 in the Charlie chat a couple of days ago? It must have slipped thier minds!!!!!


----------



## VTDishguy

jsanders said:


> Isn't that a personal attack also?
> 
> You don't have a 921. You don't subscribe to Dish Network. You said you are very happy with your cable subscriptiion. Why are you posting here??


No, I was pointing out the fact that the guy had no argument. I DID subscribe to Dish network until 3 days ago, I WAS on a waiting list to get a 921. the fact was I was sick and tired of Dish network claiming to be something that the arent, they ARE NOT the leader in HD programing, like they claim. Their PQ has degraded to the point were, 100 percent digital or not, it is very poor on some stations. I have no problem paying a premium price for a premium service or equipment. However, when I get that servce or piece of equipment it better damn well work like the company said it should. For example, one of the biggest reasons Microsoft gets bashed, and rightly so, is because they use their consumers as beta testers. They release a deeply flawed product and fix problems as they come along. Dish is doing exactly the same thing, you are plunking down 1000 dollars for a piece of equipment that is still essentialy in beta testing. People have a huge problem with microsoft doing it when you spent 89 dollars on windows, why can't people be angered when dish does it on a 1000 machine? Finaly, it has come to a head for some people however, because in this case, this isn't a future feature that has been scrapped this is one of the selling points of the machines, you can output HD signals to a recorder, that is being scrapped, it is an item that is in the manual as working, NOW. that seems pretty much like a lie to me.


----------



## jsanders

Mark Lamutt said:


> Remember Ms. Soyoroa (sp) Cartwright? And how she's no longer working for E*... rumors were flying around that she had something to do with it.


You know..... Someone over at Echostar needs to send their experiences over to Scott Adams! All of the material for the Dilbert strips are contributed, right?? Shipping the 921 really sounds like something the Pointy Haired Boss would do as a result of Dogbert Consulting! I will just bet there are some stupid management stories in there somewhere....


----------



## moooog

Just wanted to add myself to the disappointed, I thought that it never made sense in the first place that the port would be "activated by a later software upgrade", and said that it was very suspicious to Mark back in January. That being said, I was still all to eager to drop $1000.00 on the 921 due to the fact that I have a DVHS 40000. The hard drive holds less than 10 movies in HD, and just doesn't have enough advantages over the non-pvr HD receiver 811 to justify it's price - and the 5$ per month fee is really hard to stomach. Here is the main problem - what good is the PVR capability if it holds such a small amount of HD material? Time-shifting is hardly necessary with as often as the titles on HBO and HDNET movies are repeated. Without archiving capability, you are stuck with having a full hard drive right away - and forced to delete all but your top favorites. In essence, the hard drive gave me the option to purchase 8 or so D-Theater titles that aren't available for sale, and that's about it. Who actually wants to record "Star Wars", and then just delete it a week later? If the hard drive was 10 times larger, or there was 10 times as much HD programming available - the 921 would definitely be worth the price. 

I also feel the SD quality is lower than on my old 501, I admit I use a 100 inch screen and component rather than S-video, - but you'd think that SD would at least look better using DVI than it does. I definitely feel that I should get a refund in the $250.00 range and that the $5.00 per month fee should be removed. Firewire was the #1 feature for me, so I'm going to "whine" for the first time in my life, and honestly feel that if DirecTV or Voom comes out with a superior product, I'd be silly not to switch. This is the first thing that Dish has done that has made me truly angry - they should have made it clear that there was a possiblility of the dishwire not working. It had always been made clear to me that Dish and JVC were working in tandem to make the two products a pair, and that there was no doubt as to the mating of DVHS with a Echostar HDTV receiver, so I do feel I was misled. By the way - mine even has a bad case of the "blue line" problem", but the prospect of being able to have a library that included Hi Def versions of classics like "Strange Brew", and "A Clockwork Orange", and "Silence of the Lambs" more than made up for any minor glitches that the 921 had, but the 921's problems are harder to accept now.


----------



## kmcnamara

VTDishguy said:


> No, I was pointing out the fact that the guy had no argument.


I wasn't trying to make an argument. I was making an observation. It's not that subtle of a difference.


----------



## VTDishguy

kmcnamara said:


> I wasn't trying to make an argument. I was making an observation. It's not that subtle of a difference.


 The point wasn't to get into semantics over wether you had an argument or not, it was to point out that your response to my original post did not respond to anything said in that post . All you did was attack the form of the post itself therefore you had nothing to add or could not dispute anything within said post. So again, don`t argue semantics.


----------



## kmcnamara

VTDishguy said:


> The point wasn't to get into semantics over wether you had an argument or not, it was to point out that your response to my original post did not respond to anything said in that post . All you did was attack the form of the post itself therefore you had nothing to add or could not dispute anything within said post. So again, don`t argue semantics.


Sir, yes sir.


----------



## Chris Blount

I have been following this thread and haven't said anything mainly because I don't own a 921 so the firewire issue is not important to me. 

What is important to me is how Mark was initially treated in this thread. Soon after the story broke, a few users came down pretty hard on Mark. I was disturbed by this because it almost turned into a lynch mob mentality. 

I know many of you were blowing off steam and for now everyone has cooled down but I hope we have all learned from this experience and will try to be better people the next time.

Mark has done an outstanding job with the 921 forum by bringing you the best information available directly from the team developing the software. He has spent countless hours of his own time researching, posting and maintaining the forum. Oh, and lets not forget the time he spends running the Survivor contest. 

Mark chose not to reveal the firewire information and I back him up 100% on that decision. It was a sensitive issue that really did not need to come to light because a possible solution was in the works. Now, that solution is pretty much out the window. 

We here at DBSTalk respect the privacy of Dish Network, DirecTV and Voom. We report mostly from official news sources. Any inside information is carefully analyzed and then reported only if it serves to benefit you, the user and does not hurt the business practices of a major company like Dish. We feel that simply blurting out everything we hear can only serve to cause problems in the long run and potentially burn bridges that we (especially Mark) have worked so hard to build. 

The entire staff enjoys maintaining DBSTalk. We do this on our own time and don't get paid for our efforts. If you don't like what Dish is doing, continue to post your concerns but please aim them at Dish. They do read these forums several times a day.


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## borfhead

moooog said:


> Time-shifting is hardly necessary with as often as the titles on HBO and HDNET movies are repeated.


What? I'm sorry, but that is the MAIN reason I bought the unit. I watch CBS mostly and with children, time shifting is the ONLY way to go now.

Although I probably won't give up dish and/or the 921 because of this announcement, it does make me less likely to stay with them in the future as Cable or other DBS's get more HD content and DVR capabilities. Right now Dish is the only game in town with HD timeshifting capabilities for me and I've been waiting for this for a long time and for the most part I'm pretty happy with the unit. But I will not pay the $5 fee until it is working flawlessly. I will be calling again in a few days to have them wave the fee (like they did last month) because of its buggyness!

And I just want to say that because of this forum and Marks efforts, I found out about and got fixed the blue line problem, which I probably would still be living with today, otherwise. Thanks Mark.


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## knealy

Can someone answer if the 921 will now be orphaned? What's the likelihood that Dish will continue to support it? Is this going the way of the Microsoft deal?

There were reports of a 922 based on a different architecture. Does this mean that Dish has found a better path and the 921 is left behind?

Can anyone tell us what the 922 is supposed to be like? In what way will its feature set differ from the 922?

BTW, I appreciate Mark's work. As disappointing as it is to lose DishWire, just consider what you'd know in the future if we lose Mark's input. Try calling Dish sometime, and see how much you can learn from them. Nada.


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## calikarim

I still like dish for internationals, but have switched all my hd to voom and i am really satisfied. 0 down and only a $9.95 lease sound a lot better than a $1000 pvr that willl never output in firewire. I talked to voom csr today they said they may have firewire output on their hardware later this year. They are also working on a hdpvr, so i am happy. I am so glad i just held on to my 6000 u, and not jumped on the 921 bandwagon, boy would i have been sorry. Voom has so much HD , 39 channels that i never have time to watch SD.


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## tm22721

This explains why they have severely limited shipments - they don't want a large class action suit from 5000 customers who bought it primarily for dishwire.

If Charlie has any ethics at all he must fire the head of his marketing department. Does this mean he has to quit ?


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## Jerry G

moooog said:


> Here is the main problem - what good is the PVR capability if it holds such a small amount of HD material? Time-shifting is hardly necessary with as often as the titles on HBO and HDNET movies are repeated.


Huh? You and I must live in two different worlds. Maybe if I stayed at home all day and didn't sleep, I'd be able to see all those repeats at a time of my choosing. But guess what. I work. And I sleep. And I have a 3 to 4 hour period from the time I get home until the time I have to go to sleep to watch TV, eat, and do all those other things that are part of daily life aside from watching TV. And on the weekends, I actually leave the house during the day and don't watch TV all day or stay home so I can catch a repeat of a movie at 10 am on Saturday morning. Although movies are repeated, most of the time there is not a showing at the times I have free to watch them.

Time shifting is invaluable to me. Prior to the 921, I missed a lot of shows I wanted to see, despite all the repeats. Now I don't. And there have been plenty of movies on Showtime or HBO that only have one or two showings in a month. So time shifting may not be necessary for you, but it's extremely necessary for me. As far as HD disk capacity, 25 hours is fine. The closest I've come to filling the disk is to have about 8 hours left.


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## Mark Lamutt

knealy said:


> Can someone answer if the 921 will now be orphaned? What's the likelihood that Dish will continue to support it? Is this going the way of the Microsoft deal?
> 
> There were reports of a 922 based on a different architecture. Does this mean that Dish has found a better path and the 921 is left behind?
> 
> Can anyone tell us what the 922 is supposed to be like? In what way will its feature set differ from the 922?
> 
> BTW, I appreciate Mark's work. As disappointing as it is to lose DishWire, just consider what you'd know in the future if we lose Mark's input. Try calling Dish sometime, and see how much you can learn from them. Nada.


The 921 isn't going anywhere, and will be supported for a very long time to come. The 922 is being introduced later this year, but it is NOT meant to be a replacement for the 921, just like the 522 is NOT meant to be a replacement for the 721 or the 510. The 2 tuner, 2 television control features of the 522 and the forthcoming 922 serve different needs and markets. Neither are meant as replacements for anything.

The 922 will be developed in Denver and will be based on the 522 software platform. It will be a 2 tuner HD satellite DVR that will independently control 2 television sets. That's all that's known at this time - it's still in the prototype development stage and won't begin testing until late summer/early fall at the earliest. Don't expect to see it until Summer 2005 or later.

And that's one of the big reasons that I'm not going anywhere...and one of the big reasons that I do this.


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## TowJumper

Thanks for your efforts Mark. Interesting news about the 922.

I find it more than a little humorous that many of the same voices I heard lamenting and decrying (here and other forums) the long development cycle of the 921 are now assuming the 922 will be here immediately and the 921 will be 'orphaned' this year.

I have not purchased or even seen a 921, but it will be interesting to see how many (if any) go up for sale since 'dishwire' is purported to be such dealbreaker. I suspect few will get rid of the 921.

Dish missed an opportunity to lead on the Firewire capability - too bad. Dish's reputation in my eyes, a subscriber since they has less than 100,000 customers, is very tainted to be sure.

As for unsatisfied customer's claims being actionable in Court- hehe give me the name of a the lawyer who takes that case. I have some cases for them too.


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## metallicafreak

So, if dish truely screwed the design, why not offer a free 922 (in 2005+) or a refund?
FREAK!


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## SimpleSimon

Chris Blount said:


> Mark chose not to reveal the firewire information and I back him up 100% on that decision. It was a sensitive issue that really did not need to come to light because a possible solution was in the works. Now, that solution is pretty much out the window.


I agree - Mark has NO blame or anything to feel bad about in ANY of this! I hope he keeps doing the great work he does!

That being said, I sure would like to know why a leakage of information would prevent a technical problem from being solved, or at least eased. The only reason I can think of is internal politics at E*, and that's not an acceptable answer to me. Enlighten me if that's not true.

I really don't care much about D-VHS in and of itself, so I can think of a couple of 'solutions' for the DishWire problem that would work for me and probably many others. After all, the objective is just to archive my shows because the internal hard drive isn't big enough. Yeah, that's right, my disk is full. 

The reason for now is that I've got shows I'm saving for someone that is currently in Iraq, and she's gonna become a coach potato for a while when she gets back. 

However, simply saving some HD movies for the long haul is enough reason to consider the following:

Basically, the solutions all revolve around plugging a PC external mass storage device into the 921. The 921 is a Linux system that creates and deletes files.

There's NO reason why those files can't be moved offline or 'near-line' using standard external hard drives or DVD burners (yes, I know, a DVD-R ain't really big enough for HD stuff - at least on ONE disc) and then moved back at a later date. No 'cryption, transcoding, or other CPU-intensive video-handling garbage involved. Of course, you could not take the offline storage and play it 'elsewhere' (except maybe on another 921), but that quite nicely solves any piracy/legal issues, doesn't it? 

The device drivers already exist in the Linux world, so the GUI application to manage the 921's internal database, directories, and such things are (almost?) all that's needed, and most of those functions are already in the 921 (obviously).

If it's done "right", it would even keep a catalog of what's "offline", and where (by volume) so you'd know what to load. That's too much to ask I'm sure - we've only been doing that in the computer world for 35 years.

I wonder if the guys at dishrip have gotten their hands on a 921 yet?


----------



## BobMurdoch

VTDishguy said:


> You Dish apologists crack me up, you can drop a grand on something that doesn't work and it doesn't even phase you. I went to dish last august because I wanted HD and better PQ than cable. Well guess what, I didn't get either, Dish can yell all they want about 100 percent digital quality but it doesn't exist. I also got [email protected]#SSed waiting for HD programming and watching them role out shopping networks, horse racing, religious and foreigner channels, all the while the customers who are waiting for actual HD content are left twisting in the wind while Dish whines about bandwidth. I dropped dish because of this I had the AEP pack with locals, four receivers and when I asked if they are going to be running a special for current customers on the 921 the CSR almost laughed. Now before anyone says "well all you want is a free receiver and Dish needs to make money" or whatever, if you relay think that a 921 costs Dish 1000 dollars I have got a bridge to sell ya. The fact is that they could easily run a special on it for current customers but they won't because once you are signed up, they don't care about you. I have recently tore the dish off my house and went back to cable. Guess what, and I hate to burst your 100 percent digital bubble, but my cable co. has upgraded to all fiber optic and the PQ is better than dish on all the channels, significantly so on some. Also I currently have a RSN in HD, HBO, Showtime, Starz, Max, CBS, NBC in HD, and in may they are rolling out ESPN, Discovery, INHD1+2, HDNET and HDNET Movies. They are also going to roll out the local fox and ABC when they finally go HD and they are currently negotiating the contracts for PBS HD and they have said they are going to roll out any HD stations as they come along. And Guess what, unlike Dish they have delivered on their HD promises so far and I have no reason to believe they won't again. Also they are currently testing a two tuner HD DVR and it is going to be released over the summer guess what I don't have to drop a grand on it, I just have to exchange my HD box for it and guess what, the monthly charge is 6.99, only one dollar more than your "VOD" fee from dish. So stay with Dish if your happy, but don't get down on people because they are not, when I am watching Crystal Clear HD programming, you will be watching your fuzzy 100 digital shopping channels.


OK, terrific...........

I was at my inlaws last weekend and got to watch their all digital comcast digital cable. Yeah, right. Ghosting on the broadcast networks. Something that looked like Multipath interference on TechTV (how'd they pull THAT one off?"). Weather Channel looked horrible with smeared colors everywhere (and he has the exact same TV I do so it isn't TV based.).

Maybe you are in that magical 1% of cable households that have a 100% fiber feed. Everyone else I have talked to still has awful PQ on the bulk of the channels which are STILL analog, and random picture pixellation problems on the all digital channels. And this is the Comcast testbed for the country with the supposedly "good" equipment in the Cherry Hill, NJ area.

As for the 921, I got what I wanted in the 921 as I can watch and record HD. It would be nice to be able to archive HD shows, but most of my archiving has been of the SD variety. In contrast to your statement, I would rather have a product that was 70% complete and mostly stable so I could get the increased functionality (HD programs, bigger hard drive, etc.) vs. my 721 which had no HD capability, or the 811/6000 which cannot record programs to a hard drive (why would anyone bother with a non-pvr receiver anymore with them selling for $0-79-99 from E* depending on when you got one).

I agree that Cable is finally seeing the light in regards to HD and DBS needs to counter that threat soon or they may be kicked to the curb in the next few years. VOD isn't a real threat to anyone which flies in the face of what the cable companies have been touting for years, when my PVR carries more than just the really popular programs that VOD has. Then again, everyone lost their mind around here a few months thanks to a penny increase for some and a three dollar increase for others. Compare that with cables price increase record over the last five years and you'll see WHY cable will continue to struggle. I lost Viacom for 2 days and got $2 for my trouble AND a long term deal to keep it from happening again with those channels for a long time. I understand WHY he is doing what he does and applaud him for trying to keep costs down. (I just wish he would sign the deal for YES though
as everyone (all the cable companies at least) seems to be paying the same price now, unless George doesn't want to extend the same price to E*...)

As for being an apologist, so be it...... For right now, me and a few hundred people are the only ones able to record HD programming off of TV. That's enough for me for now......


----------



## Jim Parker

DonLandis said:


> It was said that the implementation of the Dishwire in the 921 depended upon other producers of 1394 devices to cooperate in the effort. They ( I read this as Mits and JVC) did not come through with this cooperation and made the integration of the 921 Dishwire problematic.


Here's the obvious solution to the problem of Mits and JVC not cooperating: Dish should design and build a DVHS deck. I'm sure that they would do a great job and everybody would want to buy one! 

Oh, wait. That's how we got into this mess in the first place. :nono:


----------



## Interprises

Interprises said:


> Mark, their advertising does not categorize 1394 support as a "future enhancement." As of this moment, their brochure includes in their REAR PANEL *FEATURES*; 2 DISH Wire™ audio/video connection ports for interface with select IEEE 1394 products. (see below)


Dish Network finally removed the brochure, today.


----------



## SimpleSimon

Interprises said:


> Dish Network finally removed the brochure, today.


That's OK - I downloaded a copy if anyone needs it for any reason.


----------



## David_Levin

SimpleSimon said:


> That being said, I sure would like to know why a leakage of information would prevent a technical problem from being solved, or at least eased. The only reason I can think of is internal politics at E*, and that's not an acceptable answer to me. Enlighten me if that's not true.


I'm not sure I believe that it did. Echostar was busy capping off firewire ports at least a week before the leak occurred (on the replacments received last week).



SimpleSimon said:


> I really don't care much about D-VHS in and of itself, so I can think of a couple of 'solutions' for the DishWire problem that would work for me and probably many others. After all, the objective is just to archive my shows because the internal hard drive isn't big enough. Yeah, that's right, my disk is full.
> 
> Basically, the solutions all revolve around plugging a PC external mass storage device into the 921. The 921 is a Linux system that creates and deletes files.
> 
> There's NO reason why those files can't be moved offline or 'near-line' using standard external hard drives or DVD burners


It wouldn't be an easy hack. If we assume the 721 as the baseline softare, people have reported that the software watches itself for modifications/hacks.

But, I agree - more hard drive space would partially alleviate my need for D-VHS. Firewire off-line storage would be fine, and they could even restrict box usage while transferring files. 721 files are encrypted on the hard drive, so I assume security could be maintained.

If fireware is really dead, then how about adding a hard drive to the front bay?

I E-Mailed Charlie on this, but of course, haven't herd back.


----------



## jsanders

Jim Parker said:


> Here's the obvious solution to the problem of Mits and JVC not cooperating: Dish should design and build a DVHS deck. I'm sure that they would do a great job and everybody would want to buy one!


Actually, I've seen some receivers on EBay with a Dish Network branding that have a built in DVHS deck in them! I didn't touch them, they look old, and I suspect they are not 8PSK compatible.... Don't know much anything about them though.... Anybody else seen them??


----------



## Interprises

SimpleSimon said:


> That's OK - I downloaded a copy if anyone needs it for any reason.


Same here.


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## TowJumper

These things are actually old Dish 5000 units with with a JVC D-VHS recorder in one unit. Sold as a JVC machine.

They worked very well but only recorded SD not HD.



jsanders said:


> Actually, I've seen some receivers on EBay with a Dish Network branding that have a built in DVHS deck in them! I didn't touch them, they look old, and I suspect they are not 8PSK compatible.... Don't know much anything about them though.... Anybody else seen them??


----------



## SimpleSimon

David_Levin said:


> It wouldn't be an easy hack. If we assume the 721 as the baseline softare, people have reported that the software watches itself for modifications/hacks.


Actually, I don't want it as a hack unless E* just blows us off (likely). It'd be much better as an E* supplied enhancement to the 921.


----------



## jsanders

TowJumper said:


> These things are actually old Dish 5000 units with with a JVC D-VHS recorder in one unit. Sold as a JVC machine.
> 
> They worked very well but only recorded SD not HD.


Thanks for the clarification. Seems weird to have a DVHS recorder and not record HD. Oh well. They are useless now if it was a dish 5000.


----------



## Sailor

I certainly believe E* could offer us some concessions for the loss of the advertised functionality (Dishwire) to say the least. As some have suggested in this thread, how about some of the following:

1. Eliminate the DVR Fee, and correspondingly drop the AE pack by the same Fee rate.
2. Provide free or minimal cost new units with this functionality when able.
3. Provide an alternate method of archiving HD/SD DIGITAL recordings.
4. Give us our money back.

I am a Customer Support Manager in a tech company and there is always a way to compromise and retain the respect of the customer. If my company, which normally sells B2B to Fortune 1000 companies, sold a product with advertised capabilites, and couldn't follow through on those capabilities, then we would somehow make it right with the customer. Why? Because a happy customer will usually be a return customer.

I hope that E* is listening, else I'll gladly join in a class-action against them.


----------



## John Quaglino

Here is a copy of my email to Dish's Mark Duffy.

Mark,

I was deeply disturbed to hear of the cancellation of the promised Dishwire on the 921. I understand that a hardware problem will prohibit it from being implemented. I bought the 921 over the announced HDTivo product specifically because of the promise of DVHS dump. The current software for the 921 even has the grayed out DVHS Setup screen. The HDTivo product currently being released has two OTA ATSC tuners allowing the user to record a digital OTA channel while watching another digital OTA channel. To many of us, DishWire made up the difference between the two machines. However, DishWire is now dead. As such, I and many others feel that the 921's value has been diminished beyond what we paid for it. To put it bluntly, we would not have purchased this unit for $999 without DishWire and DVHS dump. Moreover, in its current form, it offers no advantage over the HDTivo product. I hope Dish will move quickly and announce an official position and plan to deal with this problem. I hope we do not have another repeat of the customer relations fiasco that existed with the shut off of the HDTV modulator.

For your consideration, I suggest that Dish admit to the problem and recognize the diminished value of the 921. I suggest you reconfigure your computers to recognize the 921 as an "older" DVR that has no DVR fee attached to it. This would add some of the lost value back into the 921. This will not satisfy everyone. Some people simply want a solution to permanently archive HDTV. It appears that the 921 will never be capable of this. Therefore, Dish should also make an offer to buy back our units for cash.

Dish should take a clue from Mercedes. Mercedes sold the 2003 E class with a navigation system that was to be installed at a later date through the dealers. When they couldn't get it to work, the people who purchased the vehicle with the system got a brand new replacement vehicle. See http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/mb_replace.html.


----------



## VTDishguy

BobMurdoch said:


> OK, terrific...........
> 
> I was at my inlaws last weekend and got to watch their all digital comcast digital cable. Yeah, right. Ghosting on the broadcast networks. Something that looked like Multipath interference on TechTV (how'd they pull THAT one off?"). Weather Channel looked horrible with smeared colors everywhere (and he has the exact same TV I do so it isn't TV based.).
> 
> Maybe you are in that magical 1% of cable households that have a 100% fiber feed. Everyone else I have talked to still has awful PQ on the bulk of the channels which are STILL analog, and random picture pixellation problems on the all digital channels. And this is the Comcast testbed for the country with the supposedly "good" equipment in the Cherry Hill, NJ area.
> 
> As for the 921, I got what I wanted in the 921 as I can watch and record HD. It would be nice to be able to archive HD shows, but most of my archiving has been of the SD variety. In contrast to your statement, I would rather have a product that was 70% complete and mostly stable so I could get the increased functionality (HD programs, bigger hard drive, etc.) vs. my 721 which had no HD capability, or the 811/6000 which cannot record programs to a hard drive (why would anyone bother with a non-pvr receiver anymore with them selling for $0-79-99 from E* depending on when you got one).
> 
> I agree that Cable is finally seeing the light in regards to HD and DBS needs to counter that threat soon or they may be kicked to the curb in the next few years. VOD isn't a real threat to anyone which flies in the face of what the cable companies have been touting for years, when my PVR carries more than just the really popular programs that VOD has. Then again, everyone lost their mind around here a few months thanks to a penny increase for some and a three dollar increase for others. Compare that with cables price increase record over the last five years and you'll see WHY cable will continue to struggle. I lost Viacom for 2 days and got $2 for my trouble AND a long term deal to keep it from happening again with those channels for a long time. I understand WHY he is doing what he does and applaud him for trying to keep costs down. (I just wish he would sign the deal for YES though
> as everyone (all the cable companies at least) seems to be paying the same price now, unless George doesn't want to extend the same price to E*...)
> 
> As for being an apologist, so be it...... For right now, me and a few hundred people are the only ones able to record HD programming off of TV. That's enough for me for now......


Listen. If you are happy with dish that is great, I was merely pointing out that cable has more than closed the gaps and as far as HD programing, they have shot past DBS. the fact is that on DBS you will probably never have HD locals there just isn`t the room, well cable gives them to me. now the reason I don`t post the cabel company is that I have no great love for them either, the simple fact is they are giveing me the better product at this time. if another company steps up, I will switch. I was merely pointing out that there are people on this baord with blind loyalty to Dish and I don`t get it, if I had spent 1000 dollars on the 921 and dish was cancleing features that are in the 
book as working, I would be pissed. there are people on this board that seem to think it is whining because you are saying something bad about uncle Charlie. I just don`t understand the blind loyalty to a company, Dish has proven time and time again that they don`t care once you are a customer I just don`t understand why people care about the company. as for the PQ of the cable you descibed, it s kinda funny, that sounds exactly like the PQ of dish when I finaly said thats it. I was watching the masters and there were so many artifacts that it was hard to read the leaderboard, all of the locals were extremly soft and all of the other channles were also "softing" up. as for VOD, I completely agree, it never interested me, however, I also got a PVR from the cable company and it is great, 2 tuners are awsome and the monthly 
rental is 1 dollar more than the monthly VOD fee from dish. But I guess the turning point was I am waiting for more hd programming, and Dish is talking about bandwith, so what do they take up that bandwith with? ANOTHER SHOPPING CHANNEL that oh yeah increases DIsh's profits. that was it, now I am back with cable and couldn`t be happier. but if you are happy with dish, that is cool, I am only giving you my opinions.


----------



## lovswr

Kagato said:


> If it is a hardware problem I doubt it's the firewire port itself. Even a cheap bargin bin firewire card can control a JVC deck enough to make a recording using Windows XP and a VB application tied into directX. You don't have to be able to control the AV/C portions of the deck (like channel changing). You just have to be able to make it go into record mode.
> 
> What does happen is you need to have the unencrypted TS stream, formated correctly, ready to go. If you don't you'll fail recording. The TS streams are typically stored in the same format as it comes off the satelite. A layer of encyption is added, most likely via the hardware from the Broadcom chipset.
> 
> My guess is this is where the problems are. You have a whole mess of things which have to work together in order to make the DVHS dealie work and work well. My guess that this is the area in which things broke. I'd also guess that if dish was to choose not encypting content on the hard drive (which couldn't get there in the first place unless you were a valid subscriber) then a software workaround could be found. Afterall, this is essentially what Tivo hackers do to enable video sharing on their DirecTivos (which also uses many of the same broadcom chipsets).


I'm new to this fora, but have some general experience with encryption & I was thinking pretty much the same thing. The de-encrypted data is probably only able to be read "once", that is straight to the HD/display ports...trying to get that "clean" bit stream out of the physical box will probably require an act of Congress. I would wager that even though it appears that the "Broadcast flag bit" issue seems about resolved more or less in the consumers interest, that issue is far from over.

I suspect that the 1394 issue is a minor hardware problem & an insourmountable political one.


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## moooog

Jerry G said:


> Huh? You and I must live in two different worlds. Maybe if I stayed at home all day and didn't sleep, I'd be able to see all those repeats at a time of my choosing. But guess what. I work. And I sleep. And I have a 3 to 4 hour period from the time I get home until the time I have to go to sleep to watch TV, eat, and do all those other things that are part of daily life aside from watching TV. And on the weekends, I actually leave the house during the day and don't watch TV all day or stay home so I can catch a repeat of a movie at 10 am on Saturday morning. Although movies are repeated, most of the time there is not a showing at the times I have free to watch them.
> 
> Time shifting is invaluable to me. Prior to the 921, I missed a lot of shows I wanted to see, despite all the repeats. Now I don't. And there have been plenty of movies on Showtime or HBO that only have one or two showings in a month. So time shifting may not be necessary for you, but it's extremely necessary for me. As far as HD disk capacity, 25 hours is fine. The closest I've come to filling the disk is to have about 8 hours left.


Well, watching television must be somewhat of a priority for you if you bought an item like the 921! I'm a rancher, and spend a lot of the daytime outside working, with weekends being no different. I just feel that it is pretty easy to catch the major releases at some point during the month even without a pvr. I have a front projector in my family room, and since I don't care to turn it into a cave, I primarily only watch movies at night and only use time-shifting for sporting events, due to the fact that I don't watch anything other than sports, news, and motion pictures. I was a bit disengenous in trashing the timeshifting ability of the 921, as I subscribe to Netflix - which gives me my time shifting, and I was mainly interested in the 921 for archiving. I still feel that the 25 hour HD capability will be something that we all would like to see improved if the firewire is not to be activated. Everyone likes and expects larger and improved storage capabilities in any product. I noticed prices of DVHS Titles have been going up lately, not down, and sell out quickly. Perhaps this has contributed to JVC, Echostar etc. receiving some heat from studios on the firewire issue?


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## jsanders

VTDishguy said:


> Listen. If you are happy with dish that is great. ..... I was merely pointing out that there are people on this baord with blind loyalty to Dish and I don`t get it ... I just don`t understand the blind loyalty to a company, Dish has proven time and time again that they don`t care once you are a customer I just don`t understand why people care about the company. .... but if you are happy with dish, that is cool, I am only giving you my opinions.


It *appears* that you enjoy inciting an argument. However, you loose objectivity and more imporantly, you loose credibility when you second guess people's motivation with terms such as "blind loyalty". People are upset about this whole thing, they will assess their options and make the appropriate decision for their circumstances. Some may leave Dish, and others may continue to subscribe. Others that were interested in purchasing a 921 may change their minds. That is their decision to make. It has nothing to do with "blind loyalty", and hopefully they can be objective about their decision making process.

They are complaining on this board because they have an actual Dish 921 receiver.

So, I will repeat my question to you. You are not a Dish subscriber. You do not own a Dish 921. You are not interested in purchasing a 921. Why are you posting on this message board??


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## Mark Lamutt

Moving now to Dish DVR forum.


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## Danny R

_2 DISHWire audio/video connection ports for interface with select IEEE1394 products_

Actually the brochure isn't _really_ false. Its just that "select" products is a lot smaller than what people expected. Zero after all is a selection of sorts. :nono:


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## Bob Haller

They should offer anyone a full refund that bought their box before the feature was dropped. This would satisfy folks who are truly unhappy with their purchase.

Its my belief if you spend 1K on a box and more than that for a high def tv those folks will all have the everything pack so the DVR fee really isnt a issue for them

Beyond that I will be shocked if they drop the price, the 721 price didnt drop when internet access wasnt enabled, same for open tv on the 6000.

Unhappy folks can make the iggest statement by voting with the wallet by changing to D


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## Ronald K

Mark

Will Dish be offering our money back?


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## Mark Lamutt

I have no idea - don't have much contact with the executive side...


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## VTDishguy

jsanders said:


> It *appears* that you enjoy inciting an argument. However, you loose objectivity and more imporantly, you loose credibility when you second guess people's motivation with terms such as "blind loyalty". People are upset about this whole thing, they will assess their options and make the appropriate decision for their circumstances. Some may leave Dish, and others may continue to subscribe. Others that were interested in purchasing a 921 may change their minds. That is their decision to make. It has nothing to do with "blind loyalty", and hopefully they can be objective about their decision making process.
> 
> They are complaining on this board because they have an actual Dish 921 receiver.
> 
> So, I will repeat my question to you. You are not a Dish subscriber. You do not own a Dish 921. You are not interested in purchasing a 921. Why are you posting on this message board??


And I will repeat my response to you, I HAD Dish network and I WAS very interested in getting a 921, however I do not have the unlimited recources that some on this board apparently have that I can buy a 1000 dollar piece of equipment and not have it work EXACTLY as it is supposed to. and as for the blind loyalty, are you realy going to tell me that there are people on this board who are objectively assessing the situation? there are a few, no doubt, but the prevailing feeling here is" so what if these don`t work, I don`t use them anyway, if you don`t like it to bad, you are whining" ect ect... . Well thats fine however, if I buy something It better work, and those ports not working means that IT DOES NOT WORK. That is the problem here, 
Dish goes back on promises and no one cares. they keep telling thier customers one thing and doing another. I guess that doesn't matter to you, but it does to me. I am not trying to start arguments I am mearly stating my opinions on dish and how I dropped them. I don't like being lied to. so I am posting on this board, again I WAS A 
DISH SUBSCRIBER, and if they get their act together I may go back but as it stands now, I will not, that is not being loyal to a company. I go were I get the best service for my money, when that company chages so will I and if the company I am currently with starts pulling the same stuff dish does than I will drop them. that is what I mean by blind loyalty. the best way to tell dish that you are dissatisfied is to vote with your wallet, I bet it gets a better reaction that sending an email to the CEO.


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## bcw

When I got my 921 I was aware that it had some bugs. As far as 'dishwire', I was pretty certain that it never would be implemented do to the 'copy protection' crap.
The 921 will get most of the bugs worked out eventually. I'm very happy to have one now to play with bugs and all. Anyone who really and truly believed that the 'dishwire' was a sure thing was delusional.


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## VTDishguy

bcw said:


> When I got my 921 I was aware that it had some bugs. As far as 'dishwire', I was pretty certain that it never would be implemented do to the 'copy protection' crap.
> The 921 will get most of the bugs worked out eventually. I'm very happy to have one now to play with bugs and all. Anyone who really and truly believed that the 'dishwire' was a sure thing was delusional.


The "Dishwire"was not something that was supposed to be implemented in the future it was one of the selling points of the box and something that was metioned in th brochure. Again, if you don't mind paying 1000 dollars for broken hardware, fine, but don't fault the people that are angry because of it.


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## knealy

So can the 921 record two HD programs while watching a prerecorded HD program?


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## Mark Lamutt

knealy said:


> So can the 921 record two HD programs while watching a prerecorded HD program?


Yes.


----------



## bcw

VTDishguy said:


> The "Dishwire"was not something that was supposed to be implemented in the future it was one of the selling points of the box and something that was metioned in th brochure. Again, if you don't mind paying 1000 dollars for broken hardware, fine, but don't fault the people that are angry because of it.


Are you angry because you are naive enough to believe everything you read?
The few of us that actually got 921's knew that the 'dishwire' port was not yet implemented. (and might never be). The units that will be shipped in the future will not have 'dishwire'. Apparently the propaganda sheets touting 'dishwire' have been removed. If you believed the marketing guys propaganda and bought one then you would have a reason to be angry. If I had my way the 'dishwire' would be there and would work, but it isn't and there is not much I can do about it.


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## RAD

bcw said:


> The few of us that actually got 921's knew that the 'dishwire' port was not yet implemented. (and might never be).


While I've never owned a 921, I was #5 on a preorder list and declined the box due to the 811's performance. I was and continue to follow the 921 story and while everyone new that the 1394 ports weren't enabled now they WOULD be via a future software update. They even mentioned that they would work with select JVC D-VHS decks on the chats. But never did Dish say that they would never be activated, are you basing this on something you heard from E* or just based on past experience with E* not keeping their advertised promises? Just curious.


----------



## metallicafreak

bcw said:


> Are you angry because you are naive enough to believe everything you read?
> The few of us that actually got 921's knew that the 'dishwire' port was not yet implemented. (and might never be). The units that will be shipped in the future will not have 'dishwire'. Apparently the propaganda sheets touting 'dishwire' have been removed. If you believed the marketing guys propaganda and bought one then you would have a reason to be angry. If I had my way the 'dishwire' would be there and would work, but it isn't and there is not much I can do about it.


First, no one thought that the dishwire would not be activated. It was to be. CES reports, chat reports all talked about it functioning it was just a metter of time before the box was stable to activate the dishwire. Not believe all we read? This isn't friggin reader's digest dude. This is a product spec not a pre-release spec but existing spec. We do not live in a buyer be ware market man. If it is listed as an existing function, then that is what it should be.
FREAK!


----------



## bcw

More presidential material.


----------



## bcw

RAD said:


> While I've never owned a 921, I was #5 on a preorder list and declined the box due to the 811's performance. I was and continue to follow the 921 story and while everyone new that the 1394 ports weren't enabled now they WOULD be via a future software update. They even mentioned that they would work with select JVC D-VHS decks on the chats. But never did Dish say that they would never be activated, are you basing this on something you heard from E* or just based on past experience with E* not keeping their advertised promises? Just curious.


Just based on surviving for 61 years. After a while you learn to take advertising with grain of salt.


----------



## Chris Blount

I looked closely at D-VHS decks and just couldn't bring myself to buy one. It almost seems like a step back in archiving technology.

I personally don't see the big deal about the firewire ports in the first place. Who needs them when most of the HD channels play the same thing over and over. Besides, how many times do you actually watch archived recordings? I think I barely watch any of my purchased DVD's more that once over a 2 year period. 

I think the best thing right now is to forgo the firewire ports and just enjoy that fact that you can timeshift HD content. Heck, if you want to archive anything, just output your movie or TV show in 480i and master it on an anamorphic DVD. I tried this one time with my 6000 and worked great. No 5.1 audio but the PQ looked pretty darn good.


----------



## JoeQ

Mark Lamutt said:


> The 922 will be developed in Denver and will be based on the 522 software platform. Don't expect to see it until Summer 2005 or later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> I am dead serious in this question.
> Has Echostar not learned their lesson from the 921 firewire oops that they are incapable of designing HW and let one of the big companies (Sony,Panasonic,etc.) make it for them?
> 
> In other words, why don't they subcontract out the HW development to a company that knows what they are doing but continue to do the SW in house?
> 
> Joe
Click to expand...


----------



## JoeQ

Danny R said:


> _2 DISHWire audio/video connection ports for interface with select IEEE1394 products_
> 
> Actually the brochure isn't _really_ false. Its just that "select" products is a lot smaller than what people expected. Zero after all is a selection of sorts. :nono:


It goes beyond just the brochure.

Go into menu,4,5 and you will see a DVHS option albeit greyed out.
VERY obvious that DVHS was intended and how does one connect a DVHS to a Receiver? Last time I checked there was only one way - 1394.

I have not rebooted yet to get SW rev 180 to see if that menu option has now been removed.

Joe


----------



## the_tx_dude

"Mark,

I am dead serious in this question.
Has Echostar not learned their lesson from the 921 firewire oops that they are incapable of designing HW and let one of the big companies (Sony,Panasonic,etc.) make it for them?

In other words, why don't they subcontract out the HW development to a company that knows what they are doing but continue to do the SW in house?

Joe"

Joe,

What makes you think that they should not outsource the SW also? Or at least hire some new/additional folks so that problems could be fixed more quickly and more reliably. This latest 180 SW release seems to have gone backwards.


----------



## BrettStah

knealy said:


> So can the 921 record two HD programs while watching a prerecorded HD program?


Yes, if at least one of the HD programs in received via satellite. No, if both programs are received via OTA.


----------



## Bob Haller

the_tx_dude said:


> "Mark,
> 
> I am dead serious in this question.
> Has Echostar not learned their lesson from the 921 firewire oops that they are incapable of designing HW and let one of the big companies (Sony,Panasonic,etc.) make it for them?
> 
> In other words, why don't they subcontract out the HW development to a company that knows what they are doing but continue to do the SW in house?
> 
> Joe"
> 
> Joe,
> 
> What makes you think that they should not outsource the SW also? Or at least hire some new/additional folks so that problems could be fixed more quickly and more reliably. This latest 180 SW release seems to have gone backwards.


No doubt its a system security issue The more people who have to be knowledgable on design, the more leaks of design. Besides which even a experienced partner doesnt necessarily guarantee success. Remember the DISHPLAYER MS went on to partner with Direct essentially the same box, function wise it was a success.

back on security.. Of course insiders are no guarantee of being honest  At the echo 6 launch one exceutive said I wiouldnt tell anyone else here that, there might be a hacker.. I was stunned, he said no doubt at least one is, trouble is we dont know who it is

Hackers might have been mad at me, for a suggestion I gave E and the used in a BIG way to help harass the thieves I was warned it might get ugly if they found out it was me... :nono2:

I am waiting for the next shoe to drop. A BIG shakeup at E tech. With Mike Dugan gone some incapables hopefully will be shown the door as new management comes in and tries to clean up the mess leftover from the 921 and other problems. So sad I hope they fix things, if things continue as is charlie will have to quit so his company can prosper. Ultimately responsiblity for things are at his door.


----------



## Chris Blount

I know this has been brought up before but take a look at the specs of the 921 that were presented on the tech forum back in July 2003:



> 921
> Highly anticipated HDTV PVR
> HDTV and standard
> Tunes OTA DTV and analog, records DTV
> 250GB hard drive, 180 hours standard, 25 hours HDTV, or any combination
> 2 tuners, PIP on any TV
> Record 2 HDTV shows at the same time while playing back a recorded one
> Skip forward 30 sec, back 10 sec
> 4X, 15X, 60X, 300X FF & Rew
> Slow-motion, frame advance
> DVI-HDTV (DVI-I), RGB video HDTV, HD component
> *DishWire (IEEE 1394) for use with select D-VHS VCRs*
> 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i output
> Seamless navigation between Dish and OTA programming
> 7-Day EPG with picture in guide
> Dish Home Interactive
> Optical digital audio out
> 2 composite A/V inputs
> Universal UHF Pro remote. Doubles the standard 100' range, not counting walls.
> $999


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=16795

Dishwire was NEVER supposed to be an all purpose firewire port. It was only to work on certain D-VHS decks. I would guess there would have been only one or two models and those have probably already been discontinued.

Also, on the original *spec sheet*, the exact words are: 2 Dish Wire audio/video connection ports for interface with select IEEE 1394 products.

I guess my point is that the 921 was designed to be an HD timeshift device. If you purchased the 921 MAINLY for for the dishwire ports knowing that they would only work on select devices, IMHO you purchased the 921 for the wrong reason.


----------



## beasst37799

Chris Blount said:


> I know this has been brought up before but take a look at the specs of the 921 that were presented on the tech forum back in July 2003:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=16795
> 
> i have a quick question um as far as i have read from the forums i dont beleve the 921 can both record 2 hdtv shows and playback 1 hdtv recording at the same time


----------



## JoeQ

Chris Blount said:


> Dishwire was NEVER supposed to be an all purpose firewire port. It was only to work on certain D-VHS decks. I would guess there would have been only one or two models and those have probably already been discontinued.
> 
> I guess my point is that the 921 was designed to be an HD timeshift device. If you purchased the 921 MAINLY for for the dishwire ports knowing that they would only work on select devices, IMHO you purchased the 921 for the wrong reason.


The key phrase in your link is "DishWire (IEEE 1394) for use with select D-VHS VCRs".

Okay, I'll bite. 
Since Menu,4,5 still shows DVHS, then how about Echostar telling us which select D-VHS to buy, turn it on that firewire port and I'l buy that 'select' model. One can still find discontinued D-VHS's.

You have to admit that it does add insult to injury when the latest rev (180) still has the D-VHS option showing.

Joe


----------



## Jerry G

Chris Blount said:


> Dishwire was NEVER supposed to be an all purpose firewire port. It was only to work on certain D-VHS decks. I would guess there would have been only one or two models and those have probably already been discontinued.
> [/B]


The 921 was always touted to be able to work with the JVC 30000. Many have it and had every reasonable expectation to be able to record to this DVHS unit.



> *
> I guess my point is that the 921 was designed to be an HD timeshift device. If you purchased the 921 MAINLY for for the dishwire ports knowing that they would only work on select devices, IMHO you purchased the 921 for the wrong reason.*


*

Come on, this is a bit unfair. Yes, many use if mainly for time shifting. 90% of my needs is for time shifting. But no one put a gun to Dish's head and told them to include Firewire connectivity to some DVHS units. But they did, and although only 10% of my needs are DVHS dumping, it was a need and the 921 was supposed to satisfy that need. It really was the one thing that kept me with Dish. The other thing that would have kept me with Dish was the long touted 50 channel HD capacity promise, and of course that went the way of Firewire with the Superdish disaster.

So, the two things that kept me with Dish are now gone. It's not so much those two things that will make me leave Dish, but it's the failure of Dish to keep their promises. It seems that Dish is willing to say anything regardless of their ability to deliver on those promises. That I've lost complete faith in Dish and will leave them is a forgone conclusion. It's just a case of waiting until it becomes clear which provider to go with. Dish has failed me for the last time. And with the latest 180 software, I still can't add two local DTV channels that can be seen with every other STB, and I can't record my local PBS station. How can such basic functionality not work in this unit?*


----------



## DonLandis

_ guess my point is that the 921 was designed to be an HD timeshift device. If you purchased the 921 MAINLY for for the dishwire ports knowing that they would only work on select devices, IMHO you purchased the 921 for the wrong reason._

So, I suppose if we agree to that theory, we can apply it to all that doesn't work right too.

If that's the case then let's see what else they can't seem to get working and should just drop it. How about the OTA feature. After all, Chris, this IS a Dish Network receiver and if you bought it just for OTA then you really bought a Dish Network receiver for the wrong reason. It would really be easy for them to give up now on OTA, Guides, and anything else that they seem technically incompetant in making work. After all the Dishwire feature has now been fixed with a simple, "We won't support it anymore." Chris, are you just trying to help E* with their image problems or do you really believe what you just said?

BCW- You have a strange attitude. How many times have you been screwed and just walked away? I'll bet lots! I have a car that I will sell you for $1000. I list all the features including GPS and high powered stereo system with DVD video, those alone worth $1000 plus to some people who like that sort of thing. Just before you get ready to purchase, I tell you that the GPS and high powered stereo system with DVD video won't be available until Spring. You say OK and pay me the $1000 for the car. You take delivery with no GPS and high powered stereo system with DVD video! Then in April Some guy who runs a forum on the internet asks me about GPS and high powered stereo system with DVD video. I tell him I made a decision not to honor the advertised GPS and high powered stereo system with DVD video as I can't get the ones I originally offered due to technical reasons. He posts a notice on the forum that I backed off the deal. Everyone who bought a car from me now has no GPS and high powered stereo system with DVD video and I have just refused to honor the original offer. So, bcw- I suppose you just walk away and tell others that it's OK as you shouldn't expect to get what was advertised and promised.

Edit to change the original offer(wheels) to something that is not a hinderance to the car function.


----------



## metallicafreak

I totally agree with you Don. Just because Dish are a bunch of dumb asses the screw a lot of things up doesn't me we should shrug our sholders and say 'oh well, shouldn't have expected that to work anyway' and walk away.
FREAK!


----------



## Mark Lamutt

beasst37799 said:


> i have a quick question um as far as i have read from the forums i dont beleve the 921 can both record 2 hdtv shows and playback 1 hdtv recording at the same time


Yes, the 921 does this, but you can't record 2 OTA digital channels at the same time, because the 921 has 1 OTA tuner, not 2.


----------



## bcw

DonLandis said:


> _
> BCW- You have a strange attitude. How many times have you been screwed and just walked away? ._


_

Don,
If it is something I can do something about, I don't let go. If there is nothing I can do about it, there is no reason to waste time and energy fighting an unwinnable battle. The 'dishwire' is an unwinnable battle. The other bugs are worth the effort. Some battles can be won. Got my wife a new car some years back. Had some distortion in the rear window glass. The dealer replaced the glass 3 times before I was happy. Another new rig a few years later had a crankshaft pulley that was not running true. Had to block the dealers driveway for an hour or so before they would take care of it. Moral:
If you are going to fight, pick a battle that you have some chance of winning._


----------



## Bob Haller

You know the negativity around here is sad. I wonder how many will still recommend dish to their friends co workers, or on the net

Now do you understand I knew a good bit of what was coming and my negative posting here reflected the bad news my insider friend predicted. Although it was worse than even he suspected Thats where my E is about to have a crisis post came from.

Sadly it was true......


----------



## RAD

Bob Haller said:


> You know the negativity around here is sad. I wonder how many will still recommend dish to their friends co workers, or on the net


The last time I recommended E* was to someone back in November 2003, just before I got my 811. That experience and Charlie in the December chat blowing any new HD programming off was enough to make me jump ship.


----------



## BobMurdoch

VTDishguy said:


> The "Dishwire"was not something that was supposed to be implemented in the future it was one of the selling points of the box and something that was metioned in th brochure. Again, if you don't mind paying 1000 dollars for broken hardware, fine, but don't fault the people that are angry because of it.


The Internet capability of the 721 was also a "feature" celebrated before the release of the product. We've been here before..... Once again, the CORE reason for getting the 921 is receiving HD content and the PVR time shifting ability. Many have stated that the DVHS dump was their main reason to get the 921. I understand the anger from their end of the discussion.

I would say though, that most of us seem to have felt that it was a secondary feature that many would not have used as most of us do not have DVHS decks and the tapes can only be played back on our machines most likely. If E* were to announce that they were shifting gears and targeting developing a DVD burner (BlueRay or HD-DVD preferably) then that might assuage some people, although that solution as well would be likely a year or so out until the next generation DVD standard is finalized. Unfortunately, I agree that the "anti-copy" lobby will not make archiving off the drive any easier (especially in the HD digital domain).


----------



## guruka

Mark Lamutt said:


> Don, you know that I respect your opinion, and the opinion of many of the others of you who have worked along side me in this forum for the last few months.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that there's nothing for me to resign from. I have put myself in this position on a purely voluntary basis in an effort to be a conduit between the early adopter users and the developers. The title is of my own devising and describes exactly what I do - act as liaison between Eldon and you. So, I suppose that I could shut down this forum and cut off the line of communication, but honestly I don't see what that would accomplish. So, I'm not going to do that. This fiasco came from the upper levels of management at Dish, not from the 921 software team.
> 
> I suppose that I could resign from the beta program, but in my not so humble opinion, that would do nothing but hurt everyone with me not doing the testing that I do. So, I'm not going to do that either. . .
> 
> I do this only because I enjoy it, and because I think the work is important.


Amen!

I just have to go on record again with a BIG thank you, Mark.

I'm extremely grateful for the conduit you provide. I'm also grateful for your neutral and conscious approach as well as your obvious honesty and values. I'm glad to be part of this voluntary community of testers/users and am completely happy with my 921.

The L180 software is a big improvement in stability. The apparent loss of DVHS dump via firewire is no big deal compared to the extremely valuable features that the 921 DOES have. It's just sat gear  Heck, I've been through so many dishes LNB's and IRD's over the last 15 years (including all my old C band and Ku band stuff - Chapparral IRD's and 12' C band dishes) that it's all just water under the bridge.

This too shall pass. Meanwhile I'm really enjoying my 921!

.....G


----------



## Ronald K

Some of you are happy with the 921 even though we are now told that the 1394 ports will never allow you to dump to a tape - others such as myself feel like we have been deceived and are very upset.

For those of you who are unhappy and purchased your unit within the last 30 days you can simply return the 921 for a full refund. I have had mine for about three months now and do not have that option. It appears that if Dish had been forthcoming with us that I would have known about the problem either before I purchased the unit or doing my 30 day return period.

What difference would it have made? Simple without 1394 I would have stayed with Directv and waited for the TivoHD unit with 2x2 tuners and state of the art software. 

The simple solution for Dish would be to offer the unhappy people the ability to return their units at this time for a full refund.

Since they have not done this, it appears that Dish intentionally withheld the truth until a point in time when the majority of the 921s sold were past the 30 day return period so they would not have to return most of the money they collected.

At this point I put Charlie and the rest of his people in the same category as ordinary con artists. 

Also, Dish has had months of time to come up with 180. If this is the best that these morons can come up with during this time, I have very little confidence that the 921 will ever be fixed.

I want my money back. If I don't get it I will be pissed.


----------



## BobMurdoch

I don't understand.... This isn't like an SUV that lost 25% of its value the minute you drove it off the lot......

These things are fetching HUGE premiums STILL in the used receiver market, where you will wind up MAKING money on the deal.....

Sell it on EBay, buy whichever receiver you want instead, and count the extra Ben Franklins you'll make in the deal. Sounds like a pretty easy way to find restitution for your feeling "deceived"....

Heck, advertise HERE that you are looking to get rid of one and I'm sure you'll get a few offers...........


----------



## garypen

BobMurdoch said:


> I don't understand.... This isn't like an SUV that lost 25% of its value the minute you drove it off the lot......
> 
> These things are fetching HUGE premiums STILL in the used receiver market, where you will wind up MAKING money on the deal.....
> 
> Sell it on EBay, buy whichever receiver you want instead, and count the extra Ben Franklins you'll make in the deal. Sounds like a pretty easy way to find restitution for your feeling "deceived"....
> 
> Heck, advertise HERE that you are looking to get rid of one and I'm sure you'll get a few offers...........


That's right. As PT Barnum and WC Fields have said..."There's a sucker born every minute."


----------



## Chris Blount

BobMurdoch said:


> I don't understand.... This isn't like an SUV that lost 25% of its value the minute you drove it off the lot......
> 
> These things are fetching HUGE premiums STILL in the used receiver market, where you will wind up MAKING money on the deal.....
> 
> Sell it on EBay, buy whichever receiver you want instead, and count the extra Ben Franklins you'll make in the deal. Sounds like a pretty easy way to find restitution for your feeling "deceived"....
> 
> Heck, advertise HERE that you are looking to get rid of one and I'm sure you'll get a few offers...........


Amen Bob!


----------



## guruka

Skates said:


> I've been a Dish Network customer since 1998. . .snip. . . All I want is a two-tuner HD DVR that works. Reliably.


Yep. Me too. And actually, that's exactly what I have with my PVR 921. It's my primary sat receiver and it works fine with the latest software.

.....G


----------



## Cheezmo

guruka said:


> Yep. Me too. And actually, that's exactly what I have with my PVR 921. It's my primary sat receiver and it works fine with the latest software.
> 
> .....G


Your experience is not typical. (I assume you don't use OTA, or record multiple satellite channels at once?). You must also always turn it off when not watching it. There must be a few other things that you carefully do (or avoid) to have it working fine.

L180 (and the 921 in generall) has been a nightmare for me.


----------



## guruka

beasst37799 said:


> i have a quick question um as far as i have read from the forums i dont beleve the 921 can both record 2 hdtv shows and playback 1 hdtv recording at the same time


I, of course can take no responsibility for your beliefs.

However as a happy 921 owner for over three months now, I can tell you that I do the above all the time. i.e., record two HD shows and playback another HD recording at the same time.

.....G


----------



## guruka

Cheezmo said:


> Your experience is not typical. (I assume you don't use OTA, or record multiple satellite channels at once?). You must also always turn it off when not watching it. There must be a few other things that you carefully do (or avoid) to have it working fine.
> 
> L180 (and the 921 in generall) has been a nightmare for me.


Dunno what's typical, Cheezmo, but I watch and record OTA ATSC stations (I get all seven OTA networks here with my roof antenna) and I do record multiple satellite channels at the same time (both SD and HD). There is nothing in particular that I "carefully do (or avoid) to have it working fine", but I do turn it off when I go to bed at night and if it's in the middle of recording something, the lil' red LED stays on and it merrily finishes recording whatever it was recording.

.....G


----------



## Ronald K

BobMurdoch said:


> I don't understand.... This isn't like an SUV that lost 25% of its value the minute you drove it off the lot......
> 
> These things are fetching HUGE premiums STILL in the used receiver market, where you will wind up MAKING money on the deal.....
> 
> Sell it on EBay, buy whichever receiver you want instead, and count the extra Ben Franklins you'll make in the deal. Sounds like a pretty easy way to find restitution for your feeling "deceived"....
> 
> Heck, advertise HERE that you are looking to get rid of one and I'm sure you'll get a few offers...........


Bob

How would that make me any different than the con artist at Dish?

I am not going to sell my 921 to some unsuspecting person even if I would make thousands of dollars in profit.


----------



## Chris Blount

Ronald K said:


> Bob
> 
> How would that make me any different than the con artist at Dish?
> 
> I am not going to sell my 921 to some unsuspecting person even if I would make thousands of dollars in profit.


Oh please.  If you place details in your E-Bay ad about what works and what doesn't, it's not deceptive and most likely it will still sell at a higher price.


----------



## Cheezmo

guruka said:


> Dunno what's typical, Cheezmo, but I watch and record OTA ATSC stations (I get all seven OTA networks here with my roof antenna) and I do record multiple satellite channels at the same time (both SD and HD). There is nothing in particular that I "carefully do (or avoid) to have it working fine", but I do turn it off when I go to bed at night and if it's in the middle of recording something, the lil' red LED stays on and it merrily finishes recording whatever it was recording.
> 
> .....G


Within one day of using the 180 update (I was out of down when it downloaded), I discovered that if you leave if viewing an OTA channel and two SAT timers that overlap fire, one will fail, and tie up the OTA tuner in the process, leaving one on a black screen and seeminly no way out.

That is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Now I'll never leave it live on an OTA channel and I won't have that problem.

We all learn how to avoid the bugs (consciously or perhaps unconsciously). I'm just suggesting that you somehow are managing to avoid the problem scenarios. You don't have a well behaved receiver, it has trained you to be a well behaved user (or you have just been lucky).

I'm not trying to be rude, I just want you to be aware that it is your usage pattern that is keeping your problems to a minimum.


----------



## Ronald K

Chris

I have never dealt with ebay before, nor do I wish to. I am not interested in going through that process even with the proper disclaimers to warn unsuspecting purchasers. 

And regarding describing "what works and what doesn't" in an ad - doesn't that depend on the latest download?

I would prefer to deal with the local Dish installer who sold me the 921 and the dish that is on my roof. Then he could reinstall the Directv oval dish that was on my roof when he takes the Dish dish down.


----------



## Throwbot

We've been hosed!
My thoughts are 
I am 100% certain I will get a 921.
I will pay $999.00, and Dish will reduce the price by at least $100.00 hours after I receive my unit.
People are mad, mean mad, and still no 921's on Ebay. This tells me that although pissed, most people would have paid the money regardless , but feel justifiable nervous that a bunch of wankers sharing one braincell are running the shop at Dish. 
Also I am suspicious that this whole fiasco is the real reason for the delay in shipping especially if the report that the new units will not have the ports at all.! That means complete retooling for the back panel !
Oh well, every now and again an angel piddels in your beer, just drink up !


----------



## JoeQ

Throwbot said:


> Also I am suspicious that this whole fiasco is the real reason for the delay in shipping especially if the report that the new units will not have the ports at all.! That means complete retooling for the back panel !


The word on avsforum is that they are now shipping with tape over the firewire ports.

Par for the course I guess. They are so incompetent that they can not even design a working interface so they end up using duct tape on it.

Even though I own one of these things and am royally pissed about the firewire issue, I do find the image of their engineers running around with rolls of duct tape to be hilarious.


----------



## Bob Haller

Ahh anyone unhappy has a easy solution why not donate it to DBSTALKS to help fund this (place) Anyone buying it would have to sign in advance a notarized statement the E equiptement is junk quality and probably will not work.

The webasite keeps all proceeds over the user cost which they get back once the unit is sold.

Chris puts them up on e bay and website makes a ton of profit


----------



## Foxbat

Has anybody seen the new Dish HD spot?

"I'm selling Lies,"
"In High Definition..."

Please, no applause, just throw money...


----------



## Throwbot

Foxbat said:


> Has anybody seen the new Dish HD spot?
> 
> "I'm selling Lies,"
> "In High Definition..."
> 
> Please, no applause, just throw money...


Rumour is..................
921's are being shipped with the movie "True Lies" already on the hard drive


----------



## BobMurdoch

garypen said:


> That's right. As PT Barnum and WC Fields have said..."There's a sucker born every minute."


Either that or the vast majority are happy with the capabilitites they do have and figure the rest of the noise is "much ado about nothing".......


----------



## BobMurdoch

Ronald K said:


> Bob
> 
> How would that make me any different than the con artist at Dish?
> 
> I am not going to sell my 921 to some unsuspecting person even if I would make thousands of dollars in profit.


How are they unsuspecting..... most know about the challenges with this receiver and they STILL are clamoring for it.

Ferraris are always breaking down but I don't see the market for them diminishing. It's considered part of the tradeoffs. Right now, an HD PVR is the pinnacle of the TV market as far as programming receivers go..... I expect this kind of thing from anything that is Version 1.0. If you can't stomach growing pains with a new technology, than sit on the sidelines until the third or fourth generation. We early adopters will (for the most part) be happy to take one for the team in exchange for being the first on our blocks with them (In my case I may be the first in my county)


----------



## BobMurdoch

Ronald K said:


> Chris
> 
> I have never dealt with ebay before, nor do I wish to. I am not interested in going through that process even with the proper disclaimers to warn unsuspecting purchasers.
> 
> And regarding describing "what works and what doesn't" in an ad - doesn't that depend on the latest download?
> 
> I would prefer to deal with the local Dish installer who sold me the 921 and the dish that is on my roof. Then he could reinstall the Directv oval dish that was on my roof when he takes the Dish dish down.


Given the fact that he could probably get $1200+ for the receiver right now, he might take you up on the deal.......


----------



## Ronald K

Bob

I had one of the very first DTC-100s in the country. I never had a problem with it and it could tune in every digital channel within a 50 mile radius. 4/5 years later it is still head and shoulders over this piece of crap that I have now.

You can be what ever you want to be including the 921 crash dummy supporter that you call yourself. I for one expect the products that I buy to work and be what they claim to be.

It has been three months and my 921 after 4-5 downloads is no better today than it was the day that I got it. At this point it is clear that the programmers have no clue what they are doing and that the 921 will never work.

Is it asking to much to simply get my money back? Any reputable company would have offered it back by now.

Frankly I do not understand your attitude. Are you a shill for Dish or are you truly "dumb"? Personally I am tired of being chastised for expecting to get what I pay for.


----------



## wombat1369

I wonder if the problems with Dishwire aren't a technical problems at all? Dish is probably disabling the Dishwire feature to prevent any HD recording. 

There's tremendous pressure from Hollywood that all computer/video hardware have some sort of copy prevention built-in. US Congress is holding hearings etc. 

The content providers want to be able to remotely enable/disable exactly what HD items home users can copy in HD format. 

Who knows, maybe Dish caved in to the pressure and disabled Dishwire purposely.

-Wombat1369


----------



## BobMurdoch

Ronald K said:


> Bob
> 
> I had one of the very first DTC-100s in the country. I never had a problem with it and it could tune in every digital channel within a 50 mile radius. 4/5 years later it is still head and shoulders over this piece of crap that I have now.
> 
> You can be what ever you want to be including the 921 crash dummy supporter that you call yourself. I for one expect the products that I buy to work and be what they claim to be.
> 
> It has been three months and my 921 after 4-5 downloads is no better today than it was the day that I got it. At this point it is clear that the programmers have no clue what they are doing and that the 921 will never work.
> 
> Is it asking to much to simply get my money back? Any reputable company would have offered it back by now.
> 
> Frankly I do not understand your attitude. Are you a shill for Dish or are you truly "dumb"? Personally I am tired of being chastised for expecting to get what I pay for.


No, I'm not a shill. As for being "dumb", I would save that for someone who wants to pay money to get back what they paid, when they can get 20-50% more by selling it in the aftermarket where a LOT of people still seem to agree that the unit still has value to them warts and all. That price may drop once D* gets their act together, but for now those looking for an "exit strategy" from the 921 have an easy way out by selling it now before E* can ramp up production (if they ever are to a decent enough level to satisfy demand).

As for the "any reputable company" line, I don't see ANY electronics manufacturer offering any money back for failures to perform whether it be a computer or any other device. For a truly humbling experience, try returning a CD, DVD, or computer software program after opening it and finding that it doesn't meet your expectations.

If you think that is small change.... I suggest you try talking to those types who bought HDTVs without component video inputs for $10K 7 years ago.

Sorry, if I seem defensive, but I do have lowered expectations when it comes to E*, and am tired of being ridiculed for having a high patience threshold. D* has more reliable equipment, but I like the extra channels I get that they don't carry, and V* isn't ready for prime time yet. Cable price gouges over the years have soured me on going back to that channel, so that leaves me with E*. The 921 has performed well for me (admittedly I don't have the OTA antenna hooked up yet, which may affect my satisfaction level). Otherwise, I'm happy with the huge hard drive, great picture, and timeshifting of HD programs. I don't have DVHS, as I am never going back to magnetic tape, and I feel that the next HD DVD equipment will make them obsolete anyway.

If you are truly dissatisfied with E* then sell your equipment and leave for another channel. E* has done nothing to show that they will be doing anything extraordinary to keep disgruntled customers and I don't expect them to start now. Start a class action suit, if you want.... In 4 years you might get a PPV coupon out of it......


----------



## Bob Haller

E REALLY should offer anyone dissatisfied their money back, free of all chargebacks.

Has ANYONE tried?

BTW I have refered my friend at consumer reports to this discussion. Perhjaps it will make a nice article. Has anyone pitched it to skyreports? 

E needs a nice brite light on them.

Years ago I think the situation would of been handled better. The new E doesnt appear to care, probably because of the bob murdocks of the world ( no offense bob)

If every dishsatisfied sub cancelled service they wouldnt pull stuff like this.


----------



## RAD

BobMurdoch said:


> As for the "any reputable company" line, I don't see ANY electronics manufacturer offering any money back for failures to perform whether it be a computer or any other device. For a truly humbling experience, try returning a CD, DVD, or computer software program after opening it and finding that it doesn't meet your expectations.


Not exactly the same case but close. When I had D* the first time around, I had two Sony A55 STB's. There was a know problem with the audio becoming distorted on some of these boxes. Sony offered me the chance to keep them and wait to see if they fixed them or return them for a FULL refund, I took the money.

If E* wants to do the right thing they should offer a FULL refund to anyone that has purchased ANY of their hardware that isn't providing all the functions that were documented either on their web site, sales flyer or instruction manual or even if Charlie or any of the other officers of Echostar or it's affiliates stating that their hardware would do such and such. No more we'll release it now and maybe get around to adding it in the future, if we don't change our minds. Frankly this sounds like the good old bait and switch, advertise something and when you go to buy it you find out you're really getting something else. I am really surprised that some governmential agency hasn't come down on E* for garbage like this.


----------



## jpoklop

From a marketing perspective, when E* changed their published specs on the 921 (no Firewire) they should have offered to buy back the units from the earlier adopters. If someone chooses to buy a 921 now, they have no reason to complain when the Firewire is not turned on. It is a simple matter of deceptive advertising. While most people probably never would have used the Firewire, if you need it, this is a huge problem.


----------



## metallicafreak

BobMurdoch said:


> For a truly humbling experience, try returning a CD, DVD, or computer software program after opening it and finding that it doesn't meet your expectations.


Dude,
not meeting you expectations and not having the functions it was advertised to have are two totally different things. 
Yes, try returning a CD or DVD because you didn't think it was as good a movie/CD as you thought (didn't meet your expectations) and of course they will laugh at you.

This is more like the following: A super dupper special edition DVD has been discussed for months, the specs were released months early and discussed by the manufacturer to include the following: an HD version of the movie in addition to the regular version that can be played on a computer ONLY if you access the web from that computer and download a verification form to prevent multiple computers from using the same HD version in accordance with the copyright agreement. The DVD is released and the manufacturer says that they are working on the website that you need to access to get the form from and will be finished sometime after release of the DVD. Several months after release, the manufacture, under pressure from consumer forums, admits that they had an over whelming technical difficulty that prevents them from properly implementing the form retrieval system and therefore can not activate the HD version of the movie. The rest of the promised features are all fine but for the select few who bought this DVD for that reason are SOL because they decided not to implement it. Now, don't you think the people who bought it primarily for this reason have a gripe with the studio? The studio makes good on wrong aspect ratios (back to the future) by giving corrected disks for all who request it and replacements for totally improperly flagged disks (Monty Python Meaning of Life) for those who request it. These problems would not effect everyone (some people don't care about AR and lots of people only watch interlaced and never even notice it) but the studios made good for those who asked as a good faith PR move.

FREAK


----------



## JerryLA

I've been patiently waiting for a 921 since placing an order on December 29th at the Depot. I have had Dish since 96 and have always been satisfied with their service. I'm seriously considering cancelling my order. It seems like the few people that have the 921's are still having nothing but trouble. I really want the 921 as I have no DVR at this time. I don't really want to add a different model and have to switch between my 6000 for HD and say a 721. Where I live there is no OTA and probably never will be. I don't personally have a burning desire to transfer any recorded material via the now defunct firewire. The problem is that now I don't trust Dish. If I had a 921 and had purchased it believing the firewire would soon be activated, I'D BE PI**ED. I'm curious, how many of you are still going to order the 921 and is the firewire issue a deal killer??


----------



## Bill R

Bob Haller said:


> Ahh anyone unhappy has a easy solution why not donate it to DBSTALKS to help fund this (place) Anyone buying it would have to sign in advance a notarized statement the E equiptement is junk quality and probably will not work.


Why in hell do the administrators keep allowing this abuse of DISH to continue from Bob Haller?

DISH equipment is NOT junk and there is not a trace of truth about his statement that the equipment "probably will not work".

If I posted lies like his I would likely be banned for life from this board but he is allowed to (constantly) get away with it. His post is abusive, defamatory, and possibly libelous.

*Why do the administrators allow this to continue?*


----------



## Bob Haller

Bill IF YOU READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS the poster said he didnt want to stick someone else with his buggy non functional featrure removed box.....

My suggestion was a serious one it would benefit the site $$$ , while the purchaser would be fully informed that it might not work well......

Bill just look back at the trashing E has taken in this thread, maybe they deserve it, to one degree or another. In any case it wasnt just or mostly me.

*Bill here is the comment I was responding too*

_Originally Posted by Ronald K
Chris

I have never dealt with ebay before, nor do I wish to. I am not interested in going through that process even with the proper disclaimers to warn unsuspecting purchasers.

And regarding describing "what works and what doesn't" in an ad - doesn't that depend on the latest download?_


----------



## Bill R

Bob,

It doesn't matter what you were responding to. It still does not justify what you posted. You said that the equipment "probably will not work"? That is a lie and and you know it.

The administrators are really letting you get away with stuff that others of us (like me) could NEVER get away with. That is just not right and THAT is what I'm compaining about.

There is a difference between opinions and problems (what others have posted in this thread) and your lies (the equipment "probably will not work").


----------



## Bob Haller

I meant specifically the firewire/ dishwire ports will probably not work.

That way the purchaser will know in advance that promised features or functionality will probably not work. Bill if you are complaining about negativity here its not just me. most now are beginging to understand whats going on. E really doesnt care about their customers.

What any individual here says is averaged by the group. At the moment the group is nearly 100% negative, for what they feel is good reasons.

A official public statement by E offering a full refund for anyone who bought their box previously is needed. As it stands presently the company pulled a bait and switch. BTW I a not the first or only poster to say this here.

I really dont want to argue with anyone and my post suggesting the site reimburse the owner for his purchase price and auction off the box for profit with a complete disclaimer was meant to be helpful to pay some of the costs here. While the original owner wouldnt have to bother about selling or warrantying it.

I really dont understand your attitude. I think I have proved with the dugan leaving leak that I still have some good sources. Incidently they are more upset than me as to the direction the company is going. Afterall its their livelyhood, for most of us its a hobby....


----------



## Bob Haller

Incidently I personally believe those ports could be supported, its a matter of cost hassle and time, with legal issues thrown in to muddy it more.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

OK, time to step in here. Bob, please tone it down.

Bill, I've been letting more than I normally would slide in this thread because of the highly volitile subject nature. People have needed to vent because of this, and I'm allowing it. As long as it doesn't spill over too much outside of this thread.

The users of the 921 who purchased it for use with a DVHS vcr have every right to be angry over this, and I don't blame them a bit for it. If there's anything at all that I could do about this situation, I would because I believe that the users got screwed big time over this. But, aside from voicing my opinion (which sometimes counts and sometimes doesn't) to the correct people at Dish, there isn't much I can do. And yes, I have voiced my opinion and will continue to do so.


----------



## Stosh

JerryLA said:


> I'm curious, how many of you are still going to order the 921 and is the firewire issue a deal killer??


I'm kind of on the fence on this one. I once was waiting with bated breath for the 921. Delay after delay has begun to disillusion me. The firewire fiasco has done more damage - not because I wanted that function, but because of the way Dish has handled the whole thing, initially promoting DishWire on the one hand, and then quietly killing it on the other.

I despise all tape formats, so if the firewire output was originally designed only to connect to a D-VHS deck, I have, and had, no interest.

The rumor about a DVD recorder being planned for the empty bay in the 921 has me far more interested - I'd much rather burn DVDs than record to tape. BUT - considering the firewire issue, can we trust that the DVD recorder will ever be a reality? Doubt is definitely creeping in.

So Dish has damaged it's credibility with all this, damage that goes beyond just the firewire issue. Many of us have less faith in them than we did before.

Will I still buy a 921? Oh, I probably will. I think they need to discount the price, though, or offer some promotion to us existing Dish customers. After all, if I can get the 811 at $149, well below the MSRP, I should be able to get the 921 at a discount also.


----------



## Bill R

Mark Lamutt said:


> OK, time to step in here. Bob, please tone it down.
> 
> Bill, I've been letting more than I normally would slide in this thread because of the highly volitile subject nature. People have needed to vent because of this, and I'm allowing it. As long as it doesn't spill over too much outside of this thread.
> 
> The users of the 921 who purchased it for use with a DVHS vcr have every right to be angry over this, and I don't blame them a bit for it. If there's anything at all that I could do about this situation, I would because I believe that the users got screwed big time over this. But, aside from voicing my opinion (which sometimes counts and sometimes doesn't) to the correct people at Dish, there isn't much I can do. And yes, I have voiced my opinion and will continue to do so.


Mark,

I have absolutely no problem with people that are complaining about problems with their 921s. They have EVERY right to complain and I'm glad that you have let them express their frustration.

My problem is with the way DBSTalk lets Bob Haller get away with posting lies and not calling him on it. Yes, now he has made a "CYA statement" that he only meant the firewire/ dishwire ports but I feel that is just another lie posted by him to try to save his butt. When are the administrators going to do something about him and his rants? This board has let Haller get away with WAY too much for FAR too long and it needs to be stopped.


----------



## guruka

Cheezmo said:


> ... snip... We all learn how to avoid the bugs (consciously or perhaps unconsciously). I'm just suggesting that you somehow are managing to avoid the problem scenarios. You don't have a well behaved receiver, it has trained you to be a well behaved user (or you have just been lucky).
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude, I just want you to be aware that it is your usage pattern that is keeping your problems to a minimum.


<chuckle> Well spoken. Thanks. I'm sure you're right. I don't leave the receiver on and tuned to an OTA channel. However I do turn it off when tuned to an OTA channel and my timers fire correctly.

.....G


----------



## Bob Haller

Mark Lamutt said:


> OK, time to step in here. Bob, please tone it down.
> .


No problem, I said it the way I did to make a point, anyone buying it would be completely informed in advance that any and all functions and features may or may not be available in the future.

My choice of words was poor sorry.

Just figured the site couild use the bucks, and given the scarcity of the thing it would likely go for way over retail.

I understand folks who dont want to mess with e bay. I have had excellent exeriences both buying and selling, and been ripped off too. Lots of folks dont want the hassle and I DONT blame them!


----------



## BobMurdoch

If you are uncomfortable with EBay, don't forget your fellow posters here. Many are upset and want to dump their 921s on principle, while many here are on waiting lists. Get together and make a deal. Richard King and I found each other here and he got me my 921 on January 9th. If I went through traditional channels I'd STILL be waiting. Put your 921 up for sale in the classifieds (put your costs in plus a markup for your "aggravation expense" and see what happens. Warts and all, I think you will still see spirited responses to take that "POS" off your hands.....).

Hey, eventually I'll dispose of my 2 7200 Dishplayers this way as they are still fetching almost twice what I paid for them on the aftermarket.


----------



## Chris Blount

DonLandis said:


> Chris, are you just trying to help E* with their image problems or do you really believe what you just said?


Don,

Why would I help E*??? I dumped their main programming package back in November and am now a happy DirecTV subscriber. If I appear to be defending E*, I'm not and I apologize if I came across that way. They have made bad business decisions especially this past year.

I voted with my wallet. I suggest to everyone pissed about the 921 to do the same. Continuing to throw money at a company that doesn't satisfy your needs is silly.


----------



## Bill R

Chris Blount said:


> I suggest to everyone pissed about the 921 to do the same. Continuing to throw money at a company that doesn't satisfy your needs is silly.


VERY good advice!

I don't understand why ANYONE continues to do business with a company (ANY company) that they are unhappy with.


----------



## mainedish

Remember when Dish Network first came online? I dropped Directv and got Dish and loved it. I then moved to the dishplayer and that's when it all fell apart for me. I now listen to many on this site and other sites before I buy. And I would never buy from Dish Network again. Dishplayer could have been a great product. But Directv has stable products. Very simple really.


----------



## RAD

Chris Blount said:


> I voted with my wallet. I suggest to everyone pissed about the 921 to do the same. Continuing to throw money at a company that doesn't satisfy your needs is silly.


That's what I did back in December took my >$120/month Dish bill and I'm now giving that money to someone else. Poor hardware and total lack of direction from Charlie and they gang was the driving factor. I tuned into Charlie Chats to find out info, not to see Charlie playing poker with his buddies and being misinformed about upcoming direction and products from Dish.


----------



## mainedish

Forrest Gump "Buying from Dish Network is like a box of chocolates, You never know what your gonna get."


----------



## sleepy hollow

What a bunch of whining juveniles. I doubt anything I can say will pursuade those who want to feel the comfort of self-righteous indignation and outrage from absolutely wallowing in it.

Yes, it is a disappointment, but it is not being activated because it cannot be activated, not because Dish is run by the evil Blofeld (see 60's Bond movies).

By the way, go ahead and sue them and make some lawyers rich. I guarantee you will see almost nothing from any settlement.

Also, how many 921s are out there? Maybe a couple hundred? Not a million. So, Dish has done all they can to take prudent steps to limit the impact. Believe it or not, they are acting responsibly. But, I know, you prefer to pout. Go ahead, get the most out of it while the rest of us see that the glass is nearly full, not 5% empty. I have now been enjoying - really enjoying - HDTV with record capabilities for several months.

When did we get to the point in this country that such bitterness could be engendered by a $50 or $100 miscue such as this? Given all the 921 does now, it cannot be worth much more than that.

Time to realize that you all knew there was risk with adopting a brand new product. but now you want that to have been no risk, or you want to limit _a posteriori _ (after the fact) what that risk should have been. Sorry, reality does not work that way. YOU took the risk. I took the risk. Concentrate on the word "took". "Took" means YOU "assume" responsibility for YOUR actions in spending (a voluntary action) $1000 to buy a product YOU knew was not complete in many regards.

Again, time to try to be objective and analyze what's happened, not throw tantrums and demonstrate that you have nothing to contribute to an adult conversation.

Give it a whirl. What have you got to lose, except your bitterness?

If you really want to be bitter, think about the thousands of dollars of your money you involuntarily fork over to incompetent unaccountable bureaucrats who pretend to educate your children.

See, that's _righteous_ indignation. Try to fathom the difference. Cannot even sue the schools to make some lawyers rich.


----------



## metallicafreak

I hope you didn't get a paper cut from flipping through the dictionary to complete that holier than thou post.

We do not live in a buyer beware market son. If a product is advertised as having X,Y, and Z then they should be there. If it can not be done, then it should have been noted or removed prior to release. 'Features subject to change' is a common notation on pre-release specs and understood that they are not the final specs. Once released, then what is listed can't be simply removed a few months later regardless of 10 units in the field or 10 million. 

No one who is upset buy this appreciates your insulting remarks. 

We did assume some risk. We assumed the thing would record HD onto the hard drive for viewing later. When you purchase a new DVD player that has not been reviewed or time tested in the field you assume similar risk in that maybe the picture will not be the greatest or some other untested problem (DTS drop outs blah blah blah). We do NOT assume the risk that listed features will disappear 5 months after the release! 

Let's equate this to the Denon DVD-5900 as there are some similarities.
Denon released the 5900 with inactive DVI and said later when it had approval from the DVD Forum that it would activate the DVI with a firmware upgrade. Similar so far to Dish? Yes. 5900s were quite hard to come by some taking 1-2 months after ordering not the same limited availability that the 921 was but comparable to some degree. What do you think would happen if Denon then said 'There was a hardware issue that prevents us from activating the DVI' or 'The 5900 features many exciting things: SACD, DVD-A, fantastic component playback, but DVI features were not among
them. There were DVI outputs, but any plans to support those outputs
have been discontinued.
What do you think would have happened? Some who bought it for DVI/scaling who be really pissed and rightly so. Some who bought it for SACD/DVD-A and not so much for DVI would or wouldn't be angry. They may say things like 'well I wasn't sure I would use it so it doesn'y really bother me'.

FREAK!


----------



## BobMurdoch

Whoa, (Sleepy Hollow) thanks for taking up the gauntlet with me to fight for some perspective. It was starting to feel like the Alamo here by myself.....


----------



## Guest

For you guys defending the 921... Would you be happy with a dish receiver shipped with an optical SPDIF output due to be enabled in a short time, then find out it will never be supported?

I can see someone being annoyed with reading of the discontent caused by this 921 Firewire deal, but to excuse Dish for this is absurd. Different people have different needs. It's like someone in Alaska defending a car with an inoperable A/C system while those in Georgia are *****ing because it's 103 and 90% humidity.

This is a major Dish screw-up, especially for those who were depending on the now-missing feature.


----------



## Chris Blount

BobMurdoch said:


> Whoa, (Sleepy Hollow) thanks for taking up the gauntlet with me to fight for some perspective. It was starting to feel like the Alamo here by myself.....


Actually Bob I'm with you and agree with Sleepy Hollow. Being an early adopter has its risks. My first *post* about the firewire port was basically my attempt at saying "Hey, you knew what you were getting and the risks". Apparently it was mis-interpreted at trying to defend Dish.

I personally don't have time to deal with incompetent companies. If I buy something and it doesn't work to my satisfaction, I try and resolve the problem with the company. If that doesn't work I tell them what I think, move on and don't buy anything else from them. Lawsuits and continuous complaining will only get you so far. I'm a strong believer in hitting them where it hurts most. Their pocketbook.

Many don't agree with this philosophy but that's okay. To each his own. From a purely financial standpoint though, it seems to me that in the case of the 921, those who are dissatisfied should just get out now while the gettin is good. The 921 would fetch a hefty price on E-Bay.

With that said though, I think the firewire issue is minor compared to what the 921 CAN do. It is quite an amazing piece of hardware given the fact that it can record and playback HD. Many are satisfied with the 921 and I'm happy for them.


----------



## TedKaz

If the 6000 can be hacked and altered with firewire, I don't think it would be a problem to hack the 921 or any other receiver. I was looking forward to adding additional hard drives through the firewire. I guess that's not going to happen. I also read somewhere that dish was going to offer a portable DVR??? Sorry I can't recall where I read that.


----------



## sleepy hollow

metallicafreak said:


> I hope you didn't get a paper cut from flipping through the dictionary to complete that holier than thou post.


No problem, I did not need a dictionary for this. By the way, a thesaurus would be much more appropriate and is quite useful for improving your diction, if not your ability to argue logically instead of emotively.

On the other hand, we all appreciate a callipygian woman don't we?



metallicafreak said:


> We do not live in a buyer beware market son. If a product is advertised as having X,Y, and Z then they should be there. If it can not be done, then it should have been noted or removed prior to release. 'Features subject to change' is a common notation on pre-release specs and understood that they are not the final specs. Once released, then what is listed can't be simply removed a few months later regardless of 10 units in the field or 10 million.


[Not sure how old you are, but wonder if you are being affectionate or condescending by referring to me as your progeny.]

As for your argument, what if they intended to have the features and then realized they'd screwed up and could not deliver them? What should they do? I know you would much prefer the evil genuis/paid henchmen scenario, but what if it is an honest mistake?



metallicafreak said:


> No one who is upset buy this appreciates your insulting remarks.


I was, in fact directly addressing those who are both upset and unreasonable in their written "demonstrations". Apparently you recognized that my remarks were addressed to you. Excellent, I would simply exhort you to consider how inane you appear. Sorry, I believe it is my prerogative to use words I want to use instead of those you want me to use.



metallicafreak said:


> We did assume some risk. We assumed the thing would record HD onto the hard drive for viewing later. When you purchase a new DVD player that has not been reviewed or time tested in the field you assume similar risk in that maybe the picture will not be the greatest or some other untested problem (DTS drop outs blah blah blah). We do NOT assume the risk that listed features will disappear 5 months after the release!


You have undercut your own agrument. Re-read what you wrote. You got what you assumed you'd get according to your own logic.



metallicafreak said:


> Let's equate this to the Denon DVD-5900 as there are some similarities.
> Denon released the 5900 with inactive DVI and said later when it had approval from the DVD Forum that it would activate the DVI with a firmware upgrade. Similar so far to Dish? Yes. 5900s were quite hard to come by some taking 1-2 months after ordering not the same limited availability that the 921 was but comparable to some degree. What do you think would happen if Denon then said 'There was a hardware issue that prevents us from activating the DVI' or 'The 5900 features many exciting things: SACD, DVD-A, fantastic component playback, but DVI features were not among
> them. There were DVI outputs, but any plans to support those outputs
> have been discontinued.
> What do you think would have happened? Some who bought it for DVI/scaling who be really pissed and rightly so. Some who bought it for SACD/DVD-A and not so much for DVI would or wouldn't be angry. They may say things like 'well I wasn't sure I would use it so it doesn'y really bother me'.
> 
> FREAK!


Again I would submit that you are undercutting your own argument. The DVI feature of the Denon is integral to its functioning. Not so with the firewire and the 921. And even if I relent on that claim, the circumstances are quite different. Dish simply made an engineering mistake.

By the way, there are other ways Dish may make good on the function they have implied with the activation of the firewire. That is, the ability to archive from the 921 hard drive could be accomplished through some other means at a future date. The 921 is expandable. That is a feature you still have on your 921. But, given your hysteria, why would Dish even attempt to mollify you with even the suggestion that they might produce an alternative hardware fix that can be plugged in later?

See, this is how you really make it tough for the rest of us. You fly into a tizzy and publicly accuse Dish of being the Antichrist, so now the rest of us will necessarily be kept in the degree of darkness appropriate to dealing with the most disgruntled among us (that would be you).

So very considerate of you. Gee, thanks, Dad.


----------



## Stosh

sleepy hollow said:


> Yes, it is a disappointment,


I tend to agree with you too, in spirit if not in the manner in which you expressed yourself! 

None of these issues with the 921, while disappointing, have convinced me to jump ship to another carrier like DirecTV. The issues aren't that severe to me, certainly not enough to make it worth the hassle to jump to another company that may or may not be any better. I don't know about the current crop of DirecTV receivers, but I know in the past there were many, many problems with some of them. So why jump from the frying pan into the fire?

People do have a right to complain about the problems with the 921, but the tone of far too many of the messages here have gone far beyond what is fair or necessary. But then some people would ***** if the sky were too blue and the temperature 2 degress too high or low for them...


----------



## moooog

Chris Blount said:


> I'm a strong believer in hitting them where it hurts most. Their pocketbook.
> 
> Many don't agree with this philosophy but that's okay. To each his own. From a purely financial standpoint though, it seems to me that in the case of the 921, those who are dissatisfied should just get out now while the gettin is good. The 921 would fetch a hefty price on E-Bay.
> 
> With that said though, I think the firewire issue is minor compared to what the 921 CAN do. It is quite an amazing piece of hardware given the fact that it can record and playback HD. Many are satisfied with the 921 and I'm happy for them.


 There are reasons that selling the 921 on Ebay if unhappy with the firewire is not a very good silver bullet. I am very unhappy with the firewire issue - but selling the 921 on Ebay would just make me even more unhappy - so that wouldn't be of much help. I doubt anyone dislikes the features that WORK on the 921 - who doesn't like a HD DVR? I'd say 50% of the reason I bought the item was for the firewire, but the other 50% are due to the 921's other state of the art features, and they keep me from selling it on Ebay etc. There are no better alternatives to the 921, If there was a working alternative with firewire, selling the 921 would be an option - but right now the 921 is the best product for rural customers, even if it was say - so buggy that it is a fire hazard and emits foul odors! I would be very happy if DISH keeps working on the problem, and offers an affordable upgrade to a unit with working firewire in the future. It's inaccurate to think that anyone upset by this is simply a whiner, my unit has suffered from many of the common problems, has the blue line problem etc. - but I expected those types of problems. I guess I'm just trying to say that just because buyers who are unhappy with the firewire aren't throwing their 921's in the Boston harbor - it doesn't mean they are hypocrites. We could switch to Voom etc. out of spite, but the gain in entertainment satisfaction would be minimal, and the hassle factor high. I liked the analogy's about the AC in Alaska and the non-working SPDIF ports.


----------



## djlong

For the record, I don't think that Dish is run by the evil Blofeld.

Blofeld was FAR more competant than Dish's hardware and software designers.

Charlie has a *wonderful* service. But he's got the three stooges for R&D, QA and project management.

I don't like the idea of losing HBO Comedy when I upgrade my system as that's one of the channels I actually WATCH... But D* and TiVo are looking better and better.

I mean, the TiVo people discovered a problem with the HDMI port and they are FIXING it. E* discovers a problem with the Firewire port and they abandon it?

I've suffered too long with the Dishplayer and watch the rest of the world catch up and pass.


----------



## cracka

I can only speak for myself, but I feel certain that the indignation that at least some of us are demonstrating on this issue stems from the accumulation of serious problems with the 921.

Early adopters or not, I doubt any of us who laid out $1000 expected a unit that...
- Crashes regularly
- Provides no guide information for OTA locals
- Drops OTA locals regularly
- Had such unacceptable component video output that it had to be replaced

For some of us, these warts were even still acceptable because we had one feature up on the competition... and that feature was the soon-to-be-enabled IEEE1394 output. Well, now that's gone, the warts remain, and the competition is shipping. Indignation? Just a tad.

Incidentally, DVI may not be integral to the operation of the Denon 5900, but it is the solitary feature that set it apart from the competition. The same can be said of the 921's IEEE1394 capability, as compared to the HD DirecTivo receiver, its only current competition.


----------



## metallicafreak

Hollow,
Interesting how you are injecting emotion into my text. Perfectly calm here dude. 

2 things then I think I will ignore your attempts to portray superiority through vocabulary.

1 DVI is NOT an integral part. The player functions fine w/ component and SACD/DVDA have nothing to do with DVI. Many people use this player w/o DVI and EVERYONE who got the initial ones used component.
2 I did not undercut my argument. You were confused. Argument was as simple as possible: We do assume risk in that certain technologies may not have longevity (component/DVI; firewire for DVDA/SACD, 'The best deinterlacing') but not in things like how we connect the units and what they can do. Sure we would not be terribly surprised at pixilation/dropouts that can be fixed via software. But when you are told this is a feature it works here it is and then oops doesn't work. That's just not cool. The DVI parallel was perfect . Sorry if your superior intelligence can't handle it. 

This is a forum dude. Who cares about diction...why not say 'you spell like **** man!' 

No anger here....no tizzy...just my opinion. 

FREAK!


----------



## sleepy hollow

metallicafreak said:


> Hollow,
> Interesting how you are injecting emotion into my text. Perfectly calm here dude.
> 
> 2 things then I think I will ignore your attempts to portray superiority through vocabulary.
> 
> 1 DVI is NOT an integral part. The player functions fine w/ component and SACD/DVDA have nothing to do with DVI. Many people use this player w/o DVI and EVERYONE who got the initial ones used component.
> 2 I did not undercut my argument. You were confused. Argument was as simple as possible: We do assume risk in that certain technologies may not have longevity (component/DVI; firewire for DVDA/SACD, 'The best deinterlacing') but not in things like how we connect the units and what they can do. Sure we would not be terribly surprised at pixilation/dropouts that can be fixed via software. But when you are told this is a feature it works here it is and then oops doesn't work. That's just not cool. The DVI parallel was perfect . Sorry if your superior intelligence can't handle it.
> 
> This is a forum dude. Who cares about diction...why not say 'you spell like **** man!'
> 
> No anger here....no tizzy...just my opinion.
> 
> FREAK!


Calm, but need to curse, huh? Usually people curse when they are not calm. Just an observation. Swearing demeans you. May I suggest you refrain. Not needed. Try to argue based on substance.

Diction means choice of words. Proper diction means you have selected the proper word to express the meaning you intend to convey. I never said a thing about your spelling. [It can also mean how clearly you speak, but that could not be the meaning in this written context, of course.]

By the way, I am intentionally being provocative. I am kind of hoping that you might break down and use that dictionary. I seriously advise you to look up callipygian at least You'll enjoy it - I mean it.

You should at least realize that all of my provocations are done with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.

This whole thing is quite silly, but at the same time most compelling. I cannot help but be drawn into the arguments. They are the most fun. Actually, if you really net it out there are three things this forum is used for:

1) Information from Dish
2) Information from users
3) Discussion (in many cases downright fighting) among users to pass the time between downloads.

(3) uses up the most time and space by far.

Anyone want to argue about that?


----------



## BobMurdoch

I agree with Chris Blount.....

If your pain threshhold has been exceeded on this product NOW is the time to bail out with still being able to get your investment back regardless of what E* does to try and get themselves out of this mess, if anything. With HD Tivo shipping today, they are no longer the only HD PVR on the block, and I expect prices to begin falling with an alternative finally available.

I'm going to ride out the storm myself, but the 921 pent up demand should start going away REAL soon so get out now if you are mad enough that NOTHING will assuage your anger.


----------



## sleepy hollow

BobMurdoch said:


> I agree with Chris Blount.....
> 
> If your pain threshhold has been exceeded on this product NOW is the time to bail out with still being able to get your investment back regardless of what E* does to try and get themselves out of this mess, if anything. With HD Tivo shipping today, they are no longer the only HD PVR on the block, and I expect prices to begin falling with an alternative finally available.
> 
> I'm going to ride out the storm myself, but the 921 pent up demand should start going away REAL soon so get out now if you are mad enough that NOTHING will assuage your anger.


Well said.


----------



## cracka

Well, there is a silver lining. This discourse has become every bit as entertaining as watching DVHS-archived HD programs. :grin:


----------



## BobMurdoch

cracka said:


> Well, there is a silver lining. This discourse has become every bit as entertaining as watching DVHS-archived HD programs. :grin:


Probably more so...... at least more entertaining than watching Nick and Bogy talk politics again........ But not as entertaining as Bert calling Charlie a pornhound (I don't know what medicinal supplements he is on, but I want some...).


----------



## pjmrt

djlong said:


> For the record, I don't think that Dish is run by the evil Blofeld.


KAOS then???? :lol:


----------



## JoeQ

TedKaz said:


> If the 6000 can be hacked and altered with firewire, I don't think it would be a problem to hack the 921 or any other receiver. I was looking forward to adding additional hard drives through the firewire. I guess that's not going to happen. .


I would not write that off so quick as the 921 should be much simpler to modify than the 6000.

Think about it. The 921 is an ASUS Motherboard with 1 or 2 unused PCI slots (I forget exactly how many but there are pictures posted in here somewhere) with a Cyrix CPU and a 250 GB Maxtor IDE drive.

The OS is Linux with DISH's PVR functionality running as an application (an assumption on my part that it is not buried in the Linux kernel as that would not make any sense)

Just like the TIVO, as more of these 921's get out there, I expect the Linux crowd to find a way to 'augment' the 921's functionality.

Lots of interesting ways to do such.

Here is one that I see as a potential: Use the PCI slot where a $40 firewire card could go and send out the raw recorded data on disk to another PC. 
Let the PC then bust up the transport streams and use a program like Dvhstool to archive it to a D-VHS.

If my 921 were not so flaky in the HW department (I am on my third one), I would have pulled the disk drive out of my 921,put it in my LINUX PC and dumped the various disk partitions to my PC's drive so I could study it.

If you have seen the photos of the 921, it is really a simple task to yank the drive. It's the darn warranty sticker that gets busted and I sure need that warranty.

All in good time

Joe


----------



## BobMurdoch

pjmrt said:


> KAOS then???? :lol:


Nah, with Ziegfried running the show you just KNOW that those Germans would actually figure out a way to engineer something properly....


----------



## JoeQ

FWIW,
here is the summary of my phone call this afternoon to C.J. Meany.
He was the fellow who handled the model 5000HD modulator issue for a bunch of us.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?p=92530#post92530

Joe


----------



## Throwbot

sleepy hollow said:


> Calm, but need to curse, huh? Usually people curse when they are not calm. Just an observation. Swearing demeans you. May I suggest you refrain. Not needed. Try to argue based on substance.
> 
> Diction means choice of words. Proper diction means you have selected the proper word to express the meaning you intend to convey. I never said a thing about your spelling. [It can also mean how clearly you speak, but that could not be the meaning in this written context, of course.]
> 
> By the way, I am intentionally being provocative. I am kind of hoping that you might break down and use that dictionary. I seriously advise you to look up callipygian at least You'll enjoy it - I mean it.
> 
> You should at least realize that all of my provocations are done with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.
> 
> This whole thing is quite silly, but at the same time most compelling. I cannot help but be drawn into the arguments. They are the most fun. Actually, if you really net it out there are three things this forum is used for:
> 
> 1) Information from Dish
> 2) Information from users
> 3) Discussion (in many cases downright fighting) among users to pass the time between downloads.
> 
> (3) uses up the most time and space by far.
> 
> Anyone want to argue about that?


Okay I'll bite...

'Well tally ho! With a bing and a bong and a buzz buzz buzz, with an ying and yang and yippiedeedoo.' 
You're French aren't you? How ironic that you Frenches tell us off on our bad grammar.

Oh, and before you ask. I know what irony is?

It's like goldy & bronzy, only it's made of iron.


----------



## Mike123abc

While I am disappointed by the lack of 921 firewire, I still will probably end up buying one, one of these days. I decided long ago to sit on the sidelines and wait for the massive debugging to get done (I had (and still have) no faith in Dish to work out the problems any time soon).

At least with the news out now the current 921 owners can probably dump their 921s on Ebay and not have to put up with a $1000 box that does not do everything they want it to do.

It would be a tough call right now if a 921 became available if I would buy it... I was looking forward to the firewire, now I have to see what scheme they come up with now with the extra drive slot.


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## metallicafreak

Matt posted the following at AVSforum:
Any plans for any expansions in the 921 are scrapped. It is, in effect, a dead receiver. Once the software is stable, that will be it. The OTA Guide info promised for late 2004 is also scrapped. They are just dropping support for the receiver and moving on to the 922.

This is not a rumor. Nuff said.'

Not pleased.
FREAK!


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## Mark Lamutt

Also not true either. There are no "dead" unsupported dish receivers. Even the oldest ones no longer available are still getting software updates. And no one that I talk to has said the OTA guide data has been scrapped...and yes, I do ask about that frequently.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Mark I have actually heard from 2 seperate employees that the OTA Guide Data on the 921 has been scrapped. Dish will not comment on this now so I have not got an official confirmation yet. But I am working on that now.


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## Bob Haller

Wow, my source was on the money, abandon the 721 921 platform. Given its problems Wonder how long till the 922 is out?

The future of DBS is multi output boxes. E is moving forward in that direction! Thats great news.


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## sleepy hollow

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Mark I have actually heard from 2 seperate employees that the OTA Guide Data on the 921 has been scrapped. Dish will not comment on this now so I have not got an official confirmation yet. But I am working on that now.


A dumb question, if I may -

It seems to me (from what little I know and what I glean from this forum) that the OTA formats are all over the map and contributing to Dish's inability to get a stable product in place. Of course the degree to which it is Dish or the formats is what should be evaluated.

So, does anyone have a feel for the degree to which Dish is pioneering something here vs. simply fouling up? I tend to view a lot of the 921 problems from this perspective. HD and digital TV in general are really just starting to get used. Relatively few viewers use b'cast only anymore. And even fewer are buying sets for digital OTA use (non-HD even) only. This is a big mountain to climb in my view. Anyone who knows about "standards" knows that they usually have almost infinite variability.

Comments?


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## Cheezmo

I guess one way to tell would be to watch the experiences of the HD DirecTivo users over the next few weeks. So far they look happy, but its only been a day.


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## Scott Greczkowski

The HD Tivo even has Guide information for OTA Digital Channels, imagine that. 

I have been contacted by a Senior Level Exec at Dish and they have asked someone from Engeneering to contact me in regards to the OTA guide and DishWire Ports. I will post this info at my place once I get it.


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## Chris Blount

Cheezmo said:


> I guess one way to tell would be to watch the experiences of the HD DirecTivo users over the next few weeks. So far they look happy, but its only been a day.


The HD Tivo get's the OTA guide data from satellite which is why you won't see the same problems as with the Dish receivers.


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## tm22721

Bob Haller said:


> Wow, my source was on the money, abandon the 721 921 platform. Given its problems Wonder how long till the 922 is out?
> 
> The future of DBS is multi output boxes. E is moving forward in that direction! Thats great news.


Wow I hope you're wrong. My two receivers are a 721 and a 921.

I can't feed the cable pig (no access to cable in my area).

Since the 921 is just a glorified PC why don't they just sell us a tuner card and a software package (ala Snapstream) so we can setup a whole house server ? Scalability (multi tuners and outputs) would also be nice.


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## bmciver

Hell Yes Brother!! I'd love to bypass the proprietary hardware and use my own via the PC. But, then big brother would lose its control, wouldn't it?


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## Bob Haller

tm22721 said:


> Wow I hope you're wrong. My two receivers are a 721 and a 921.
> 
> .


From what I have heard the future if any of the 921 is still up in the air, some feel it should be recalled and scrapped.

721 support will continue, just dont be looking for new features and such. It will be on a maintenance level, the platform no longer used for any new boxes


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## James_F

Hell, just drop your TiVo or 921 and do it all on your PC. Its only a matter of time before WMC has HD capability.


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## JoeQ

James_F said:


> Hell, just drop your TiVo or 921 and do it all on your PC. Its only a matter of time before WMC has HD capability.


I do HD OTA on my PC and before the demise in February of the model 5000 HD modulator,thanks again to DISH, I was recording HBOHD and SHOHD with my PC card.

While I do own a 921,it is not used for OTA.
I use a $290 PC card for all my OTA HD viewing & recording.

The 921 will never be able to compete feature wise in the OTA department with my PC card.

Full D-VHS firewire support,fully functional program guide, outputs to my HDTV, has DVI support and the record time is only limited by how much disk space you can stuff in your PC.

Oh, yeah - it also upscales DVD's to 1080i/720P.

In case I get accused of working for the company that makes this card, I do NOT. I am posting in the 2 satellite forums (dbstalk and satguys) about this card for an OTA HD option that works and which lets you use a D-VHS.

Joe


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## JoeQ

tm22721 said:


> Since the 921 is just a glorified PC why don't they just sell us a tuner card and a software package (ala Snapstream) so we can setup a whole house server ? Scalability (multi tuners and outputs) would also be nice.


That is what Voom is promising for later this summer.


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## lovswr

JoeQ said:


> Mark Lamutt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 922 will be developed in Denver and will be based on the 522 software platform. Don't expect to see it until Summer 2005 or later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> I am dead serious in this question.
> Has Echostar not learned their lesson from the 921 firewire oops that they are incapable of designing HW and let one of the big companies (Sony,Panasonic,etc.) make it for them?
> 
> In other words, why don't they subcontract out the HW development to a company that knows what they are doing but continue to do the SW in house?
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I wonder about this too. As I undersstand it, DTV is about to go to the "single" manufacturer model. Why not let the consumer electronics companies, you know people who actually know how to make this kind of stuff work, slug it out amongst each other. Does E* make a good portion of thier profits on the hardware they sell? (unlike say MS)
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## phaseshift

I am transitioning back to cable. FCC rules insist that cable companies provide firewire to HD customers who request it. Comcast in Chicago is unaware of this rule, but I am hassling them and suggest others do the same. See this PDF from the FCC, pages 12 (paragraph 24) and 50 (paragraph 4).



Chris Blount said:


> I voted with my wallet. I suggest to everyone pissed about the 921 to do the same. Continuing to throw money at a company that doesn't satisfy your needs is silly.


Another thing I did was sell my Echostar (DISH) stock. I loved the company once. Now I don't.


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## Big Bob

phaseshift said:


> I am transitioning back to cable. FCC rules insist that cable companies provide firewire to HD customers who request it. Comcast in Chicago is unaware of this rule, but I am hassling them and suggest others do the same. See this PDF from the FCC, pages 12 (paragraph 24) and 50 (paragraph 4).
> 
> Um, this is a draft. Was this ever ratified?


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## phaseshift

Big Bob said:


> Um, this is a draft. Was this ever ratified?


It doesn't say its a draft. The title of the document is:
*SECOND REPORT AND ORDER AND
SECOND FURTHER NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING.​*
While PROPOSED is in the second part of the title, the first part of the title says to me that it's an order.

It also says on the first page: 
*Adopted: September 10, 2003​*
Comcast called me yesterday, and stated they have no obligation to supply me with a firewire-capable box. They invited me to complain to the FCC. I called the FCC, and a person there looked up the document, and said I can make a complaint to the FCC's Media Bureau.


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## Big Bob

Okay, make your complaint to the Media Bureau. 
Please report back what they tell you....


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## sleepy hollow

phaseshift said:


> It doesn't say its a draft. The title of the document is:
> *SECOND REPORT AND ORDER AND
> SECOND FURTHER NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING.​*
> While PROPOSED is in the second part of the title, the first part of the title says to me that it's an order.
> 
> It also says on the first page:
> *Adopted: September 10, 2003​*
> Comcast called me yesterday, and stated they have no obligation to supply me with a firewire-capable box. They invited me to complain to the FCC. I called the FCC, and a person there looked up the document, and said I can make a complaint to the FCC's Media Bureau.


Part of this is an order and part is a notice of rulemaking. Depends on where the firewire regulation is found. If in the latter, then it is a long way from being a regulation. I have not had time to slough through it. Perhaps someone out there can excerpt the relevant part of the docket and I could tell you what it means.

"Adopted" does not necessarily nail it as far as whether it is a regulation or not. A proposed regulation must also be adopted by the Commission. Remember, this is done according to Robert's Rules of Order or some derivative. You know, like on CSPAN with Mr Chairman, this, and Mr. Chairman, that. All in favor say "Aye"....


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## Slordak

It would be highly entertaining if Phaseshift got some sort of injunction or fine levied against Comcast for refusing to honor FCC rules. Although it seems likely that this is something which has not yet been fully ratified and adopted. Still, definitely worthwhile to continue pushing to see if this is in fact the case or not.


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## phaseshift

Slordak said:


> ...Although it seems likely that this is something which has not yet been fully ratified and adopted.


It has been adopted; I've now confirmed that. Here it is in the Federal Code! Make sure you're in section 76.640, and scroll down to subsection (4)(i).

Through connections, I got to someone at the FCC with enough clout to get the ball rolling. I'm led to believe by my FCC contact that the FCC and Comcast lawyers will be talking about this soon.  My FCC contact said I'll be out of the loop a few days; then I should call her back.


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## mindwarp

But then those rulings doesnt apply to E*, or do they somehow can conform to regulate Dish also????


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## knealy

I'm still waiting for my 921. Dishwire availability would have been nice but it doesn't affect my desire to have a 921. I want it mostly for HD with record capability.

Once I get it and connect the component out to my HDTV will I need any other video connections to my TV, like S-Video? Will the 921 output component video even if I'm watching an SD channel?


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## phaseshift

mindwarp said:


> But then those rulings doesnt apply to E*, or do they somehow can conform to regulate Dish also????


No, just cable. I only refer to it on DBSTalk because of my frustration with E* that's driving me to cable.


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