# Earl, What is Directv's goal for next National release?



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl,

Now that 3 release candidates have been sent to various portions of the public but not released nationally, I begin to wonder what Directv's goal is for the next national release? Please understand, I am not complaining and apologize if I sound as such. I guess I'm just trying to set my expectations in line with Directv's strategy.

Clearly there have been changes in the release strategy over the life of the HR20. Indeed, nothing surprising about that at all. And I very much appreciate the opportunity for downloading release candidates so I can, when I have time available, help Directv make the next national release better. And so I can experiment with new features. In lieu of a more formal "gamma testing program", the windowed releases are a great interim technique.

But now I'm sensing a seachange in how the releases go from gamma to national. Before it seemed that if things didn't break any more badly than the previous release, a release candidate was sent national. Now we've seen 3 candidates that seemed to not only not break things, but add new features and be likely more stable for more people not get sent out nationally. So I guess the strategy or release criteria have changed.

Is it that all lockups, partials, unwatchables, etc. must be gone before national release? Is it that all the new features are better integrated? Are there more features that need to be in place?

Again, I am not complaining nor frustrated, but curious so as to set reasonable expectations.

Thanks for all your help,
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Their goal for the next national release.... Basically:

To have as stable of a product for the general consumer... that does not decrease the reliability of the unit.

Are they going to wait for every last lockup, crash, freeze, ect to be out of the box... Gosh I hope not, as we won't see another national release for a while.

Yes, this last week... they have taken a chance to tap into the a "public" beta test of the system. And so far that chance has played out.

0xFA is a very stable release for the general consumers... problems... yes; but overall it is a very stable release.

They *NEED* to make sure the next one is JUST as stable, if not more so.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tibber said:


> But now I'm sensing a seachange in how the releases go from gamma to national. Before it seemed that if things didn't break any more badly than the previous release, a release candidate was sent national. Now we've seen 3 candidates that seemed to not only not break things, but add new features and be likely more stable for more people not get sent out nationally. So I guess the strategy or release criteria have changed.
> 
> Is it that all lockups, partials, unwatchables, etc. must be gone before national release? Is it that all the new features are better integrated? Are there more features that need to be in place?
> 
> Again, I am not complaining nor frustrated, but curious so as to set reasonable expectations.


I can't speak for Earl or D*, but I think that maybe what we're seeing now is a more realistic timeframe for updates. I think because D* was chasing some nasty little gremlins from jump that they were rolling out new updates as quickly as the programmers little fingers could bang them out. It seems they were given a once over, then released to the West Coast, and if nothing major blew up in their faces, roll it out nationally. I think that because the issues were so big and so prevalent that perhaps the updates were getting rolled out quicker than they should have been.

I think now the attitude might be that they have many of the major bugs restrained to the point where they can take a little more time thoroughly testing the release candidates before initiating a widespread release.

I could be completely off the mark, but that's kind of the feel I get. Because I haven't encountered any bugs to this point, I haven't thoroughly investigated any of them, so I've been mostly an interested observer.

On a lighter note. I know I've spent too much time here in the forums when the phrase "release candidate" creeps into my vocabulary. I'm a bit of a geek by hobby, but not by profession, certainly, so that's a phrase I'd never have encountered if not waiting with baited breath for the latest good news from Earl on software updates.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Thank you both, Earl and Sharkie_fan. Confirms some of my thinking.

Thanks,
Tom

Oh, Sharkie_fan, you sling the lingo quite well for a hobby geek.  Glad you're here with us.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 0xFA is a very stable release for the general consumers... problems... yes; but overall it is a very stable release.
> 
> They *NEED* to make sure the next one is JUST as stable, if not more so.


Very stable? I guess if you are comparing it to some of the incredible crappy prior releases, but since 0xFA came out the software has not been able to run 24 days with out with out some kind of lockup issue. I have 2 or 3 lockups since the 11/22nd release that required the RBR. I would hardly call that very stable. Even just one lockup over the past 22 days it would not be considered stable, maybe just 1 lockup in 365 days could be called sort of stable. Stable to me is you don't lock up. And lets not forget that this "very stable release" still has the unwatchable and unplayable bugs and does not correctly support manual recordings. While it may be an improvement over some of the crap eggs the turd bird has laid it is hardly "very stable"

Think about this when it comes to stability, RBR has become an acronym that people use and recognize. Rebooting is so normal with the HR20 that we have created a TLA for it. The TLA was first used under 0xD1 but only under 0xFA did the use of RBR explode. 0xFA stable... I say no but at least it works most of the time.


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## redfiver (Nov 18, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Very stable? I guess if you are comparing it to some of the incredible crappy prior releases, but since 0xFA came out the software has not been able to run 24 days with out with out some kind of lockup issue.


This may be an isolated incident with your box (and possibly a few others). My box has not had any problems, even before 0xFA and hasn't required a reset. Both of my HR20's have been okay, as well as two others I know of. We may be an isolated group of users who don't have problems. The only resets we've had is when we forced the update to 108 and 10B


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## Tyrod (Nov 1, 2006)

I hope they don't screw up pinky. I live for pinky.


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## smolenski (Oct 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...... Yes, this last week... they have taken a chance to tap into the a "public" beta test of the system. And so far that chance has played out.........They *NEED* to make sure the next one is JUST as stable, if not more so.


I honestly think the public has been used as Beta testers since the HR20-XXX firsat shipped. Not that I mind, but they should have at least acknowledged as much.


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## Brantel (Dec 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 0xFA is a very stable release for the general consumers... problems... yes; but overall it is a very stable release.
> 
> They *NEED* to make sure the next one is JUST as stable, if not more so.


Earl, Just a freindly disagreement here...
Mine locked up in 5 minutes after the installer left. Required a RBR. How is this concidered a very stable release?


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

redfiver said:


> This may be an isolated incident with your box (and possibly a few others). My box has not had any problems, even before 0xFA and hasn't required a reset. Both of my HR20's have been okay, as well as two others I know of. We may be an isolated group of users who don't have problems. The only resets we've had is when we forced the update to 108 and 10B


I agree. My unit has had VERY few lockups if any. Maybe 1 in 6 weeks.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Blitz68 said:


> I agree. My unit has had VERY few lockups if any. Maybe 1 in 6 weeks.


In our case, 0 lockups the past 9 weeks.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

btmoore said:


> Very stable? I guess if you are comparing it to some of the incredible crappy prior releases, but since 0xFA came out the software has not been able to run 24 days with out with out some kind of lockup issue.


As Earl said, there are still problems, but after FA was released the number of problem posts around here dropped quite a bit. I rarely see posts of problems on the other big forums anymore either, just here.

So they squished a good number of bugs. Certainly a few remain and certainly a number of people still have issues, but for the vast majority it is now a stable platform. And I can see them being a little weary of releasing another major update that could change that.


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

FA wasn't that great for me until I did a full reset with format, then it worked much better. Now with 0x10B it is even better.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Brantel said:


> .....Mine locked up in 5 minutes after the installer left. Required a RBR. How is this concidered a very stable release?


O.K. Fine. What about since? I've had two HR20's since Sept. Maybe I use mine differently, but I just haven't that many problems.


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## Mrmiami (Oct 3, 2006)

redfiver said:


> This may be an isolated incident with your box (and possibly a few others). My box has not had any problems, even before 0xFA and hasn't required a reset. Both of my HR20's have been okay, as well as two others I know of. We may be an isolated group of users who don't have problems. The only resets we've had is when we forced the update to 108 and 10B


I have to agree with redfiver on this one. I also had a few lockups with the oFa release but not to the point I wished I hadn't jump in so early. Since my 10B release unit seems ro be more stable with some issues with color shifting from all appearences fixed. Is it stable enough for National release? I would say YES. Do they still have more tweaking to do? Of course they do but so long as people realize this and just exercise a little more patience with the knowledge there are bound to be bumps in the road then National could come quicker. You have to remember this is basically no different than a computer and if you have a bunch of impatient key mashers out there you are going to have lockups same as you would with a computer. I can't say for sure but I suspect National release could actually be realized before the new year.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mrmiami said:


> I have to agree with redfiver on this one. I also had a few lockups with the oFa release but not to the point I wished I hadn't jump in so early. Since my 10B release unit seems ro be more stable with some issues with color shifting from all appearences fixed. Is it stable enough for National release? I would say YES. Do they still have more tweaking to do? Of course they do but so long as people realize this and just exercise a little more patience with the knowledge there are bound to be bumps in the road then National could come quicker.


I would say that with the exception of one more pass on addressing some specific market DMA signal issues, 10B is ready as a national release as well.

All recordings and playbacks (now 21 tested in various configurations - scheduled, manual, OTA, etc.) worked perfectly. The updated GUI seems to be a bit faster (once the guide is fully loaded), and the nominal changes are improvements.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Yes, there are plenty of you that have had issues with 0xFA

BUT... the real question is... what happened to the entire forest, not what happened to some of the trees.

If the overall forest got healthier, and less individual trees where effected...
Then yes... the release is a lot more stable then it was.

The forum world is not the only point of information they get, they also evaluate their CSR call volume... and their own automated internal testing.


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## jamieh1 (May 1, 2003)

Very few hickups here, I think that the last 2 beta versions that we got this week have this box right up where it needs to be.

Only issue Ive seen is when trying to view some photos everyonce in a while it will say unable to access, and reverts back to live tv.

And once my wife left with photos playing and came home a few hours later and it was stuck on a picture and couldnt control the HR20 from the box or remote had to reset, but as far as sat tv or ota, NO PROBLEMS. I love this box.



I wish Directv would release the last one nationally so if we check for a update that we want loose are OTA.
Im for one am not going to touch that 02468 screen until we are safe to do so.


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## cmoses (Dec 3, 2006)

I have an extensive IT background and jump on every Alpha, Beta, Release Canidate, etc that I can. Computers and their problems I fully understand.

Most people, and when I say most I am referring to those that do not read this forum, only want their HR-20 to do two things, allow them to watch D* and record programs when they can't watch. D* realizes this and I think they are making that their main focus. Releasing the software nationally when they feel that it will be stable and usable for the most people. That being said I really like the Santa visits that they have been offering to the adventurous ones out there. It allows those that wish to see the future the oppurtunity to do so. I can't wait to see the new changes once the update goes national, but am currently enjoying my stability and consistancy that I currently have. 

Clayton


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I have to agree that the level of chatter on 0xFA was a fraction of th earlier releases. 0xFA is stable to the point that more testing can work out the kinks that might be in any new development. It is unfortunate that the gap occurred at a time when a highly-desired feature was being implemented. However, the methodology is good and I welcome the change.


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## upnorth (Jun 21, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In our case, 0 lockups the past 9 weeks.


Same Here not one lockup or reset since I installed 9/15/06.
Still on 0xFA


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

I'd feel a lot better if they made 0x10B national so just in case something would happen with my HR10 I wouldn't have to revert back to 0xFA. Really like the OTA features. Lucky only a fromat would set it back to 0xFA.


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> O.K. Fine. What about since? I've had two HR20's since Sept. Maybe I use mine differently, but I just haven't that many problems.


I have 2 HR20's also with no lockups, no blank recordings, audio synch problems are no different than my HR10_250 (actualluy better). The original unit failed upon installation and the installer went back to the office a got a replacement. No problems since. Maybe the reason is that I have all new wiring and I watched him do the install, so I know it was done correctly.

azarby


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## Reggie3 (Feb 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, there are plenty of you that have had issues with 0xFA
> 
> BUT... the real question is... what happened to the entire forest, not what happened to some of the trees.
> 
> ...


Earl - How would you say the Santa software update went? Do you think it is stable?


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## dhkinil (Dec 17, 2006)

I did not download OTA as I do not do well receing any OTA'sbut I still have lots of problems with recordings, generally I need a reset every few days to watch things, not a lot of things are being recorded now because of holiday repeat season, nonetheless, still have blank screens with sound in the playlist or recordings that will not play at all. I also have either a bad multiswitch or LNB as I do not get espn2hd, ndnet or discovery hd at the moment.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

The point was about Earl calling 0xFA "very stable" not that 0xfa was not a better or more stable release than prior releases, yes it is. To me very stable means not crashing at all, and the core features just work. Just because you only had one lockup or a few lockus and don't consider that too bad, well if you consider that stable in less than a 30 day window you have a very low expectation of stable. None of my DVD players have never crahsed, nor have any of my plasmas or projector or any display, all of the HD STBs I have owned from D* if you put them all together and added up the total number of times they have crashed requiring a reboot over the past 6 years I would bet it averaged out to 1 or 2 reboots a year at most and I have never had to manually reboot my sat t-60 for any kind of lockup out side of the time when a hard drive failed. Then you get to core features, dare we forget the unplayable bug, that prompts for you to keep or delete as soon as you try to play, I have seen that 4 or 5 times and I seen other report it even more, or how about the manual recording bug in 0xFA. Perhaps I just have a different perspective of stable, which is perhaps why I am not jumping to new code for the sake of it, 0xFA is the most stable version of the code that I have had to date, at least it works most of the time, I can deal with the manual bug, even when prompted by the unplayable bug I was able to make them play by being persistent. IMO calling this stable is just lowered expectations, I am no fan boy or apologist for D*, I am just a customer that has expectations that the DVR I pay for works for me not me for it, I should not have to coddle it or lower my expectation of quality.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

If that is the case... that we can't call any version of the TiVo software "stable"... because there is at least one person who reports that it crashes.

And no one says you have to coddle it...


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I can usualy crash any computer and my hr20 has been very stable on 108


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If that is the case... that we can't call any version of the TiVo software "stable"... because there is at least one person who reports that it crashes.
> 
> And no one says you have to coddle it...


Earl, now you are just being silly.

Why are you trying to turn this into a HR20 vs TiVO argument, just to rile the fan boys and make a lot of noise?

What I mean by coddling, is the recommendations to remove equipment, to preemptive reboots, or reformats, and recommendations to monitor free spaces because some people think low space cause problems, if people do that kind of thing, which they are, I would consider that coddling it. I don't do any of those things, my box sits in a closet in the dark will all the other equipment until it breaks and I need to RBR it


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Let me phrase what I ment by stable in this context...

0xFA is stable enough, that they can take the time to make sure the next release improves the stability of the unit, for everyone... and does nothing to reduce the stability for anyone.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> Earl, now you are just being silly.
> 
> Why are you trying to turn this into a HR20 vs TiVO argument, just to rile the fan boys and make a lot of noise?


But just the same...
If you can say the 0xFA release is NOT stable.. because you (and other's) have had issues... negates everyone that doesn't have problems with it.

So hence why I brought the DTivo into the picture... because is constantly tossed out as being a "stable" platform... To equate the expectation level.

I am not hear to rile anyone's buttons... no point in it.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

houskamp said:


> I can usualy crash any computer and my hr20 has been very stable on 108


The point was about earl calling 0xFA "very stable", a DVR is not a general purpose computer running a random collection of hardware and software you choose and can make crash, rather it is a closed system provided by D* who should be providing a "very stable" platform because they control everything about the box.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> The point was about earl calling 0xFA "very stable", a DVR is not a general purpose computer running a random collection of hardware and software you choose and can make crash, rather it is a closed system provided by D* who should be providing a "very stable" platform because they control everything about the box.


So at what "ratio" of users... can you state that a version is "very stable".
As no platform, of any product... is going to be 100%.

Or will you never call it "very stable" until you never have another crash again, for how many months? But what if you never have a problem again, but some reports they did... does is it then no longer considered "very stable"..

I never said they where done with the unit... I simply stated that the unit was very stable (and yes... even compared to previous versions).. Nor did I state they where happy with it's stability level as is...

Just simply... 0xFA out of the versions to date, has provided them with the opportunity to not have to RUSH out another version of the software.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But just the same...
> If you can say the 0xFA release is NOT stable.. because you (and other's) have had issues... negates everyone that doesn't have problems with it.
> 
> So hence why I brought the DTivo into the picture... because is constantly tossed out as being a "stable" platform... To equate the expectation level.
> ...


Earl's whole point has always been new releases must be more stable not less. 0xFA was very stable for me, but I did have a few lockups. And during that same time, I had 1 HR10 (yes TIVO) lockup and 1 HR10 reboot due to snow on the dish. I had forgotten that every once in awhile when the HD Tivos had lots of conflicting satellite input strengths, they would lockup then reboot. Note, the HR20s did not lockup during this storm. (Now, I do have a concern that an HR20 could shutdown an nput tuner and not restart it, but I do not recall if that happened.)

And for the general populace, 0xFA was more stable than some of the release candidates. (Apparently, from what Earl is saying.) Not that its stable enough, thats why they keep making stability fixes in each release candidate. 

Merry Christmas,
Tom


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## DishDog (Nov 10, 2006)

And isn't it also a measure how much viewing enjoyment you get using tthe HR20 vs how annoying it is to receive that enjoyment?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

DishDog said:


> And isn't it also a measure how much viewing enjoyment you cab get using tthe HR20 vs how annoying it is to recieve that enjoyment?


Very good point.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So at what "ratio" of users... can you state that a version is "very stable".
> As no platform, of any product... is going to be 100%.
> 
> Or will you never call it "very stable" until you never have another crash again, for how many months? But what if you never have a problem again, but some reports they did... does is it then no longer considered "very stable"..
> ...


Ok let me try this again,

Stable for me is not crashing. My expectation is, and this is just my expectation, baring a hardware problem, that I should never have to hit a reset button. From purely my perspective I would consider 1 lockup a year requiring a reboot tolerably stable, annoying but acceptable. If the box requires quarterly reboots it has a stability problem that need addressed in the near term and if it requires monthly or more frequent reboots due to crashing or locking up it has a serious stability problem that requires immediate remediation by D*.

If the box was at a point where it could run 6 - 12 months with out issue and the major functional bugs were gone, I would consider that "very stable". Again, that is my expectation on stable.

I have never said you said they were done with it, you are putting your words in my mouth. You say "even compared to previous versions" I say it is only considered "very stable" in comparison to previous versions, I do not consider the 0xFA a "very stable" version, as I have said in my original post it is at least working most of the time, but it is not put to par on what I expect from stability from a consumer electronics device.

I am glad to hear from you that "they where happy with it's stability level as is..." they shoudn't be. It sound like they have similar expectations to mine and are disappointed that they have not achieved it too.

"Just simply... 0xFA out of the versions to date, has provided them with the opportunity to not have to RUSH out another version of the software." To put it another way, they are not getting beat to death by support calls on this release and it is giving them some runway so they are not pushing out emergency fixes every week.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

DishDog said:


> And isn't it also a measure how much viewing enjoyment you cab get using tthe HR20 vs how annoying it is to recieve that enjoyment?


That is what it is about. I would like to not even think about this box, and just be happy knowing that the content I wanted to watch was being recorded and I could watch it at my leisure. Every time there is a reboot, lockup, partial, unwatchable, unplayable, partial interface lockup, etc. it just takes away from the viewing enjoyment.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore,

I hesitate to ask a question for which I can't really guess an answer, but somedays I get stupid and ask anyway. 

If I may ask, what is your level of confidence in D* today? In terms of D* commitment and in terms of their ability to deliver?

My own feelings are mixed and vary day to day. I guess I'm certain D* is committed to fixing the problems. But I seem to have mulitpath distortion about their ability to deliver... 

Merry Christmas everyone.
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore... 

Fair enough..... I apologize for putting words into your mouth.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Ok let me try this again,
> 
> If the box requires quarterly reboots it has a stability problem that need addressed in the near term .


If this is what you actually mean, then by that definition of stability, my one of my 2 HR20's is more stable than either of my HR10's. I can't remember my HR10's making it more than 3 months without a problem of any sort. As a matter of fact, I have to say I think the HR10's also have what I would describe as an "unwatchable" bug as well. I don't know if anyone else on here has ever had the problems that I have had with the HR10's thru the past couple years, since the CSR's seem to act like I am the first time they ever heard of the issue, but when recording an HD feed, usually ESPN HD, the recording would be nothing but pixelation, showing 3 seconds for a record time. The actual screen would be the Tivo screenshot from the listing, and a superimposed image from the previous channel or show I was watching prior to going into the recorded list. Anyway, anyone that thinks that the HR10's are stable, in my opinion, are off there rocker as well. I guess if someone has a good box without any issues, they assume everyone does. I guess I got lucky with my HR20's since I am very happy with them. My first unwatchable just happened after over 2 months of usage on 2 HR20's and I average 3 to 4 unwatchables on the HR10's a month.
So to wrap this long post up, for me HR20's are more stable than the highly touted HR10's. Just my experience, but I am not the only one that has had these problems, since they are replicated across both my HR10's.
Kevin


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

tibber said:


> My own feelings are mixed and vary day to day. I guess I'm certain D* is committed to fixing the problems. But I seem to have mulitpath distortion about their ability to deliver...


I feel exactly the same way. I think D* *WANTS* a stable platform, but question their ability to provide it in a timely fashion. By timely I mean within the next 6 months.

After all, look how long E* has been doing DVR's in-house (and using stolen TiVo info to boot) and they still don't have it perfect.

As for how you measure stability, here is how I look at it on a scale of 1-10:

*D* R10, DVR 40 etc. - 9.9* - Even with expanded units with 250g HDD's I never have reboots. Some have runs for a year or more with a hiccup. This should be the goal.

*D* HR10 - 9.0 *- Not perfect by a long shot in terms of lockups or freezes. Still records what I ask 99.9% of the time. But will admit being nervous during reboots to see if it will come back.

*D* HR20 - 8.0* - This box is much more stable than I expected after seeing the R15. I still have quite a few freezes when using trick play. Not lockups, but momentary freezes. Now that manual recordings are fixed, I haven't missed a recording. Have not required a RBR, but also have no MPEG-4 channels. It recorded OTA just fine.

So as I see it, the HR20 is as close to being as stable to the HR10 as the HR10 is to the R10. The stability of the R10 should be the goal as it is rock solid.


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## deucefranchise (Dec 6, 2006)

stable would mean every time i taped something i could watch it..... this version is running at about 70% for me... that is not stable..... stable means i wouldnt be afraid to start watching a show while it is still recording becuase it will ruin the recording.... stable means i wouldnt have to have my old dvr taping all the same things so i dont miss a show..... this release is not stable... it is better then before but not stable. I have no confidence in it doing the one thing it was designed to do so i dont really think it should be considered stable


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

This is all a moot argument (other than that I agree this is a stable box from FA on :lol: 

I guess you are all too young to remember the BRS (Big Red Switch) -- or maybe you've been a MAC bigot forever).

And I guess you never decided to reboot your PC once a week or whatever just to be sure it would keep running without problems.

And clearly every computerized machine you have (including your car) has worked perfectly from the day you bought it.

Compared to all that, to me the HR20 has been stable.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

deucefranchise said:



> stable would mean every time i taped something i could watch it..... this version is running at about 70% for me... that is not stable..... stable means i wouldnt be afraid to start watching a show while it is still recording becuase it will ruin the recording.... stable means i wouldnt have to have my old dvr taping all the same things so i dont miss a show..... this release is not stable... it is better then before but not stable. I have no confidence in it doing the one thing it was designed to do so i dont really think it should be considered stable


deucefranchise, none of those things ever happened to me. So I call that EXTREMELY stable.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

richlife said:


> This is all a moot argument (other than that I agree this is a stable box from FA on :lol:
> 
> I guess you are all too young to remember the BRS (Big Red Switch) -- or maybe you've been a MAC bigot forever).
> 
> ...


I don't consider a dvr to be a personal computing device. In a computer, I load many pieces of software and several parts of hardware that are not within the control of the manufacturer. It is intented that I do so, but my DVR is not. My computer is on a network full of potential virii just hoping to bot my computer. I share word documents, excel files, and other things that also could be virus laden.

No, I consider my DVR to be my replacement VCR. Perhaps you've had a bad experience with VCRs, but mine never, ever locked up.

I never had to know there was a "reset button" on my VCR. Yes I am a geek and did discover it one day but I never had to push it. I certainly didn't turn the thing off, unplug, or reset it every day, week, or month. And yeah it might miss a recording when power was off or if I forgot to turn the timer on, but we're not talking about that here with the HR20, are we? We're talking about normal people doing normal things and the DVR is FAILING where a VCR just wouldn't.

(And no, I've never had a computer problem with my car, but once. A bad sensor was causing the car to not start. So was it the computer or the sensor? GM replaced the sensor, not the computer. And didn't download new firmware.)

This is my soapbox and I'm willing to share it with anyone else who wants to climb aboard. But don't try to convince us that it is ok for a VCR replacement to be this flawed, miss recordings under normal and correct use, lockup regularly for several people, and/or otherwise have red, reset button so prominently placed. It just isn't right! It shouldn't be "expected" just cuz it has a CPU (so did my VCR, btw...)

And I am old enough to remember the big red switch, I still reboot my PC far more often than I would like, and my Tivo keeps on humming. (and the last unix servers I put together had uptime approaching several years.) But, aside from the tivo, they ain't VCR replacements.

Ok. Deep breath. Rant down. 

Do have a Merry Christmas, everyone,
Tom


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Herdfan said:


> As for how you measure stability, here is how I look at it on a scale of 1-10:
> 
> *D* R10, DVR 40 etc. - 9.9* - Even with expanded units with 250g HDD's I never have reboots. Some have runs for a year or more with a hiccup. This should be the goal.
> 
> ...


Ultimate TV - 10. I don't know how it was when it first came out, but I've never had to reboot mine in the last 4 years. 

Its interesting though, that some are having issues while others are not. Makes you wonder, if it was a software issue, wouldn't everyone be having the same issues? Do you think it might be a bad batch of boxes out there? I don't know, just a guess.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

theratpatrol said:


> Ultimate TV - 10. I don't know how it was when it first came out, but I've never had to reboot mine in the last 4 years.
> 
> Its interesting though, that some are having issues while others are not. Makes you wonder, if it was a software issue, wouldn't everyone be having the same issues? Do you think it might be a bad batch of boxes out there? I don't know, just a guess.


It is a very interesting problem. Some defects have been easily duplicated and I believe now been fixed. Others seem to be timing issues that are only triggered by how the DVR is used (even in seemingly normal ways), or how the local channels are transcoded into mpeg4, or how the home infrastructure is setup. But even all those issues combined don't seem to explain everything, so I still keep wondering the same things you've expressed...

Merry Christmas,
Tom


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tibber said:


> No, I consider my DVR to be my replacement VCR. Perhaps you've had a bad experience with VCRs, but mine never, ever locked up.


OK... time to climb up on my soap box for a moment. 

Mine's never "locked up", but I've had it eat a tape or two in it's day.

Let's compare apples to apples here. Your VCR isn't a DVR. It doesn't lock up, it sucks up tapes and spits them out in wadded little messes of plastic.

If you want to take issue with the reliability, lets compare to the reliability of other like products! Though, granted, you'll get ripped for that as well, comparing the HR20 to the HR10, because "this isn't a tivo, so get over it". My personal take on it though is that you have to compare the current product to it's predecessor. Regardless of the fact that they're second cousins, twice removed, as opposed to the normal "father, son" relationship that products and predecessors generally would have.

The fact of the matter is the HR20 replaced the HR10, and so you have to compare the performance of one against the other.

Given the stories we read here, certainly the HR20 comes up short in many cases, and has to be improved.

Just please, lets stop comparing the HR20 to your VCR.

And off my soapbox now.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> OK... time to climb up on my soap box for a moment.
> 
> Mine's never "locked up", but I've had it eat a tape or two in it's day.
> 
> ...


Tell me your first dvr didn't displace a VCR. 

Yeah, mine did eat some tapes and after 10 years of heavy use for a VCR (yup, 10 years) it started eating most tapes; but i bought good tapes, cycled them often, and understood when mechanically there was a failure. just as when my first DVRs had hard drive or fan problems. But the VCR cpu never locked up.  (I'll give Tivo a small bye for locking up because the hard drive failed given that its OS is on the hard drive.)

I don't think you and I are on different pages, but I sure feel like people who compare a PC to a dvr are. Talk about comparing apples to rocks, they aren't even both fruit...

Merry Christmas,
Tom


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

I have to say when I got my first Hr20 during the inital rollout mid-August I was completed disgusted with it... I never used, just kept using the HR10s I already had in my home... since I knew the OTA was coming I had my second one dropped off a couple of weeks ago and I haven't looked back since. Both my Hr10s are deactivated and sitting in a closet. I've been using the Hr20s full time and I haven't had any problems with any SAT recordings or OTA recordings... No resets either. The two things I miss though are the dual live buffers and no sound effects at all... but I do enjoy being able to hit the red button and bring up the scores while watching HD Sunday Ticket... I'm happy with the boxes so far and I'm looking forward to the new programming coming soon...

I connected the box to my network but I don't have a Viiv computer... Are there any plans for VOD through the internet in the future or file sharing of programs recorded on the box?


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

btmoore said:


> The point was about earl calling 0xFA "very stable", a DVR is not a general purpose computer running a random collection of hardware and software you choose and can make crash, rather it is a closed system provided by D* who *should be providing a "very stable" platform *because they control everything about the box.


Sorry dude. My HR20 is rock solid. Only had to reboot once or twice in 2 months


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## upnorth (Jun 21, 2006)

tibber said:


> Tell me your first dvr didn't displace a VCR.
> 
> Yeah, mine did eat some tapes and after 10 years of heavy use for a VCR (yup, 10 years) it started eating most tapes; but i bought good tapes, cycled them often, and understood when mechanically there was a failure. just as when my first DVRs had hard drive or fan problems. But the VCR cpu never locked up.  (I'll give Tivo a small bye for locking up because the hard drive failed given that its OS is on the hard drive.)
> 
> ...


Well I quess I am on a different page because IMHO comparing a DVR to a VCR is comparing apples to rocks.
A dvr has a OS and a harddrive and it also needs to talk to many HDMI devices how much closer to a computer can you get.


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## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

btmoore said:


> Very stable? I guess if you are comparing it to some of the incredible crappy prior releases, but since 0xFA came out the software has not been able to run 24 days with out with out some kind of lockup issue. I have 2 or 3 lockups since the 11/22nd release that required the RBR. I would hardly call that very stable. Even just one lockup over the past 22 days it would not be considered stable, maybe just 1 lockup in 365 days could be called sort of stable. Stable to me is you don't lock up. And lets not forget that this "very stable release" still has the unwatchable and unplayable bugs and does not correctly support manual recordings. While it may be an improvement over some of the crap eggs the turd bird has laid it is hardly "very stable"
> 
> Think about this when it comes to stability, RBR has become an acronym that people use and recognize. Rebooting is so normal with the HR20 that we have created a TLA for it. The TLA was first used under 0xD1 but only under 0xFA did the use of RBR explode. 0xFA stable... I say no but at least it works most of the time.


I have the opposite experience. No lockups since oxfa.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

upnorth said:


> Well I quess I am on a different page because IMHO comparing a DVR to a VCR is comparing apples to rocks.
> A dvr has a OS and a harddrive and it also needs to talk to many HDMI devices how much closer to a computer can you get.


Well, I'll compare a DVR to the HR20. My Panasonic E80H (hard drive and dvd recorder/tuner) locks up tighter than a drum about once a month. It fails to record about 2 times per month. It's firmware has never been updated....and I still like and use it a lot. It is what it is. It is useful. I didn't call Panasonic, I didn't write them. I've seen these problems before and they aren't going away, nor are they going to be "supported".

My HR20 has never locked up (12 weeks). It has failed to record exactly twice in 12 weeks. It's firmware has been updated regularly. I REALLY like it and use it a lot. I've never called D* about it, but virtually live on this forum

Unlike the Panny, these problems ARE going away and the support, in terms of downloads, (windowed with OTA included!!!), and this forum has been terrific. My experience with the HR20 is considerably better than the Panny...and I paid 400 bucks for the Panny. I still have it, and use it every day.

So, if your only experience with DVR had been with my Panny and then moved the HR20, you'd be more than pleased at this point. It all depends on what you are used to and what your expectations are (as well as how the box works for you).

In my case, the HR20 has been really, really good, especially for a new product.


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## RichmondSteeler (Dec 7, 2006)

Ok..I will say it..My HR20 with Santa's gift Friday night is "very stable"!


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Very stable? I guess if you are comparing it to some of the incredible crappy prior releases, but since 0xFA came out the software has not been able to run 24 days with out with out some kind of lockup issue. I have 2 or 3 lockups since the 11/22nd release that required the RBR. I would hardly call that very stable. Even just one lockup over the past 22 days it would not be considered stable, maybe just 1 lockup in 365 days could be called sort of stable. Stable to me is you don't lock up. And lets not forget that this "very stable release" still has the unwatchable and unplayable bugs and does not correctly support manual recordings. While it may be an improvement over some of the crap eggs the turd bird has laid it is hardly "very stable"
> 
> Think about this when it comes to stability, RBR has become an acronym that people use and recognize. Rebooting is so normal with the HR20 that we have created a TLA for it. The TLA was first used under 0xD1 but only under 0xFA did the use of RBR explode. 0xFA stable... I say no but at least it works most of the time.


The only reboot I did under 0xFA was to force the 0x10B update. I too have had ZERO problems with 0xFA. I swear if not a single HR-20 had a problem with it people would start complaining about having nothing to complain about. If it were me.. Based on the vast number of people having few to no problems, if I was having all these unwatchable and/or unplayable recordings I'd be asking for a replacement unit.

Of course cable or Dish Network are always options for people too if they are so unhappy. I hear they all have stellar DVRs...


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## upnorth (Jun 21, 2006)

hasan said:


> Well, I'll compare a DVR to the HR20. My Panasonic E80H (hard drive and dvd recorder/tuner) locks up tighter than a drum about once a month. It fails to record about 2 times per month. It's firmware has never been updated....and I still like and use it a lot. It is what it is. It is useful. I didn't call Panasonic, I didn't write them. I've seen these problems before and they aren't going away, nor are they going to be "supported".
> 
> My HR20 has never locked up (12 weeks). It has failed to record exactly twice in 12 weeks. It's firmware has been updated regularly. I REALLY like it and use it a lot. I've never called D* about it, but virtually live on this forum
> 
> ...


Yes same experience here very happy with my HR20 the best $200 i have spent.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tibber said:


> Tell me your first dvr didn't displace a VCR.
> 
> I don't think you and I are on different pages, but I sure feel like people who compare a PC to a dvr are. Talk about comparing apples to rocks, they aren't even both fruit...


Actually, my first DVR did in fact replace a VCR.  I was with cable for a long time and our cable here is pathetic. I lived in an apartment that provided cable and frowned on satellite dishes. Though I knew I could put one regardless, I went through the proper channels until I got them to agree. I mounted it on my balcony and hid it with planter boxes and they were OK with it, so my first DVR was just 4 or 5 years ago!

And, yes, you and I are one the same page. It was just a long weekend, and I was weeding through pages of "My car doesn't do this" or "My PC does this all the time" or "My Tivo is 100% perfect, and this one should be to". Yours just happened to be the last post in line when I finally had to say "enough already"! It's not a car, it's not a PC, its a DVR. Lets compare it to other DVRs. Compare it to the HR10, but also, compare it to the Tivo Series 3, since they're the same generation of products.

I love my HR20, it's performed flawlessly for me, but I realize that while mine is performing like the HR10's big brother, for many of you it's performing like the ugly step-child... I dont' deny it needs help, but if you want to throw it under the bus for it's performance, compare it to the performance of another DVR...


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## fishingham (Dec 9, 2006)

My HR20, though only 5 weeks old for me has not had a hiccup over 3 releases (the last one from Santa). It was only then, getting the Santa 2 release, that I discovered the reset button was very tiny and hard to reach compared to the big red button on the H20 which I did have familiarity with when it froze every few months. Until then, I hadn't had a need or want to do a reset - the box just works. Yes, there are a few quirks which will get worked out over time but nothing that stops the fun of using it in the mean time. Now if I could only get as good a deal on another one as I did on the first, and I'd have a second one without delay and retire my other H20.
Not having a VIIV computer the HR20 doesn't do much with the network, but my IODATA Avelink player2 handles all that stuff just fine already. 

All in all, at least on my setup, the HR20 is working quite well, even my wife who is very technologically challenged enjoys it as well, considers it a great improvement over the DVD recorder which was used to replace the old VCR. Speaking of VCR's, yes, I have had them lock up requiring pulling out the power cord to reset them. They would just stop responding to anything, including the front panel buttons.

The only thing I have found which is super stable is the microwave, but then again, it has very limited functionality.

Sorry for the long rant...


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## mikhu (Oct 10, 2006)

Am I missing something here? The HR20 is a computer, is it not? It may not have all the add-on peripherals and cards and whatnot, but it is a hard drive with storage. Last I checked that is also what a computer is, in its base form. In other words, in my mind at least, the HR20 is more pc than anything else.

And compared to a typical pc? It's rock solid in comparison.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Blitz68 said:


> Sorry dude. My HR20 is rock solid. Only had to reboot once or twice in 2 months


You have a much lower expectation of what stable is compared to me. A monthly reboot is not an acceptable level of stability.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Mike Huss said:


> Am I missing something here? The HR20 is a computer, is it not? It may not have all the add-on peripherals and cards and whatnot, but it is a hard drive with storage. Last I checked that is also what a computer is, in its base form. In other words, in my mind at least, the HR20 is more pc than anything else.
> 
> And compared to a typical pc? It's rock solid in comparison.


While it is a computer it is not a general purpose device it is a closed system special purpose computer where 1 technology provider controls all the software and hardware. There is a very big difference, the expectation for a closed system like this is a much higher level of reliability.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tibber said:


> I don't consider a dvr to be a personal computing device.


Here is your problem. A DVR *is* a computer, always has been. Even Tivo is just a Linux computer with the "Tivo OS" on it. The HR20 is a Linux computer with the "DirecTV DVR Plus OS" on it.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Here is your problem. A DVR *is* a computer, always has been. Even Tivo is just a Linux computer with the "Tivo OS" on it. The HR20 is a Linux computer with the "DirecTV DVR Plus OS" on it.


He does not have a problem, it is not a personal computer device, it is a special purpose closed system compute device. D* controls everything in and about the HR20 you control almost nothing, in a PC you control almost everything, there are big difference in reliability expectations.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

btmoore said:


> You have a much lower expectation of what stable is compared to me. A monthly reboot is not an acceptable level of stability.


I considered my old Tivo T-60 darn rock solid. But I had to reboot the thing at least every couple months due to it getting very, very slow and random lock ups starting. Reboot and all is better for another couple months.

To me that is stable enough for me. I just don't have a problem with that and I don't get all p!ssy about it when it did lock up. Once it locked up for 2 days that I wasn't aware of until Saturday. I missed CSI on Thursday and all my Friday shows like Stargate and BSG. I was disappointed but I rebooted the old girl and was able to find repeats of some of the shows. The rest it was time to fire up Bittorrent.

The T60 was my best friend until it's hard drive finally died. RIP T60.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I considered my old Tivo T-60 darn rock solid. But I had to reboot the thing at least every couple months due to it getting very, very slow and random lock ups starting. Reboot and all is better for another couple months.
> 
> To me that is stable enough for me. I just don't have a problem with that and I don't get all p!ssy about it when it did lock up. Once it locked up for 2 days that I wasn't aware of until Saturday. I missed CSI on Thursday and all my Friday shows like Stargate and BSG. I was disappointed but I rebooted the old girl and was able to find repeats of some of the shows. The rest it was time to fire up Bittorrent.
> 
> The T60 was my best friend until it's hard drive finally died. RIP T60.


Ok I guess you are saying those of us who expect a higher level or reliablity are "p!ssy". IMO That is rather rude to make personal attacks, but there are all levels of maturaty out here.

I do not consider monthly or bi monthly reboots an acceptable level of reliability. I am guessing that your stability problems with your t-60 sounds like they were likely cause by a failing hard drive. I ended up replacing my hard drives because of the same issue in my t-60. I would agree that the way the t-60 handled hard drive problems is a product defect, there should of been some kind of error messages or event log about hard drive read/write failures at least some kind integrated utility to test for hard drive problems once there was a failure. As a side point my original dual drives started failing about 4 years in and the past 2 years have been on a new drive there have been no lockups or crashes over the past 2 years, the only time it has been off has been during a 5 hour power outage. Outside of the hard drive issues, I think that is a great example of stability.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

btmoore,

IMHO, you are correct about stability. The MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) for any one (working) HR20 should be 6-12 months, not 1 month. I suspect that even you would agree that patience for the early rendition of this product is tolerable, but long term acceptance requires a much better MTBF that is currently exhibited. On the basis of that statement, 0xFA does not fall into the "very stable" category.

Since Earl's "very stable" comment actually started this whole line of discussion, perhaps let's back up a little and go over that again. Earl didn't really recant his statement, but he clearly indicated that his use of the wording "very stable" did not match btmoore's definition of "very stable." They both seemed to say "fair enough" and moved on. Earl was comparing one version of HR20 software to another while btmoore was comparing the HR20 to a functional recording device (be it DVR, DVD, VCR, whatever) that DID have a high MTBF.

I agree that the HR20 should have a 6-12 month MTBF. Everyone should want that or better.

In my experience, so far, 0xFA was more stable than 0x10B - zero lockups with 0xFA, but I've had one lockup with 0x10B.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

In my opniopn, arguing how stable 0xFA is isn't as important as if it is more stable than 0x10B. My impression, from reading the posts is that it doesn't appear to have a lot of complaints among those who received a gift from Santa. If we can narrow the scope of the problem reports to exclude OTA and ViiV, I doubt 0x10B is less stable than 0xFA at least on the original set of core functions. I personally think that my 0x108 has much more stable trick play than 0xFA.

With that said, I don't believe reliability is going to be the sole measure for national release. The release candidates released to public beta added two major functions, which are potential invitations for calls to support centers. People who don't have an OTA antenna or anywhere close to good reception may call and complain about 771 message. People who don't own a ViiV certified machine may call and complain things don't work. These calls will happen even without a real problem on HR20. I can understand why D* doesn't want to let these releases go national during holidays.

What I hope is D* sees this public beta as a success and is willing to continue this program. As long as I am willing to take the risk, there is no ground for complaint. I suppose if I force a download outside of the window, I can revert back to the national release, correct? Please keep sending Santa out.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

btmoore said:


> Ok I guess you are saying those of us who expect a higher level or reliablity are "p!ssy". IMO That is rather rude to make personal attacks, but there are all levels of maturaty out here.


Not really, poor choice of words on my part. But I have much better things to do in my life then get all upset because I had to reboot a stupid receiver once in a while. It's just not that big a deal to me. I refuse to allow TV to give me stress of any kind.
Perhaps it's because I've worked in computer and software support for more then a decade and I can't count how many thousands of times I've had a user reboot and it fixed their problems and they went happily about their business.

I understand it is a big deal to you and that's fine.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Ah, the soft bigotry of low expectations. It's not enough for the HR20 to be just "about as good" (if that) as previous devices or "reasonably in line with the performance of other computer devices". Many years have elapsed since DVRs were introduced - at least 3 since the introduction of the HR10. And it's not like the HR20 breaks massive new ground (i.e. it's not the HMC). To me this means that HR20 should be responsive, reliable and able to handle almost all of DirecTV's customer installation situations. The "performance bar" is set at least as high as whatever device the new one is replacing, in this case the HR10, and to a consumer it doesn't matter what software is under the hood. If the D*/NDS engineers can't meet that expectation, they shouldn't have undertaken the effort to begin with.

Now I certainly don't expect zero defects, nor do I suspect anyone does, that's a strawman that people keep throwing up. What we are saying, however, is that a 4th generation generation DVR and 2nd generation HD DVR that's packaged and sold as a "consumer electronics device" (regardless of whether it's a "computer" under the hood or not), should be *rock solid stable when delivering its core features for 99% of the installed population.* In fact, it should be rock solid stable when delivering any officially supported feature. And that's the minimum bar. As I mentioned above, the HR20 should also be responsive and easy to use (among other things). But "just working" is one of the key features.

I will say that I've noticed a positive trend in reliability as evidenced by less and less screaming on the boards after the last two releases. However, there are enough (not one or two, but many) people still experiencing lockups, lost recordings, etc. to give me pause. Plus, OTA still not fully rolled out and the likely rollout of dual buffers + replacement hard drive support, I'd say the jury's still out on whether DirecTV can *continue *to do release code that increases reliability while introducing new features. A couple of good releases is not enough to draw a long-term trend if you're looking in from the outside.

If DirecTV succeeds, that would be great. I'll have to replace my HR10 eventually, and would like to stick with DirecTV. But until all I see on this board and elsewhere is random chatter (sporadic bugs, etc.), count me as nervous and staying on the sidelines.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Very well put jcricket.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Not really, poor choice of words on my part. But I have much better things to do in my life then get all upset because I had to reboot a stupid receiver once in a while. It's just not that big a deal to me. I refuse to allow TV to give me stress of any kind.
> Perhaps it's because I've worked in computer and software support for more then a decade and I can't count how many thousands of times I've had a user reboot and it fixed their problems and they went happily about their business.
> 
> I understand it is a big deal to you and that's fine.


Perhaps its because you don't have a wife and kids that glare at you when after a hard day the DVR reboots in the middle of their programs, or fails to record something they looked forward to watching all week.

Once/year? People probably won't care. Once/month or week? I'd be pissed.

He's not saying that TV is the most important thing ever, and I fail to detect an unreasonable tone in his posts. But when you pay $300 for something you're locked into for 2 years and then $60/month or more, I think it's fair to have some basic assumptions about the reliability level.

If you're not experiencing reliability problems, good for you. But anyone that is should complain, and publicly. Otherwise it gives the false impression that everything is fine. Judging by the frequency of software updates, I'll bet DirecTV's getting a staggering number of calls from customers pissed off about the HR20. It's in their best interest to reduce that to near zero.

And oh yeah, I've been working in IT longer than you, so I know what to expect from "computers". If I wanted that at home I'd go build my own MythTV box or use Windows Media Center and some cable cards.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

jcricket said:


> Perhaps its because you don't have a wife and kids that glare at you when after a hard day the DVR reboots in the middle of their programs, or fails to record something they looked forward to watching all week.


Actually I do (wife anyway) and if a program is missed then no big deal. She'll hop on Bittorrent herself and download the program to her laptop and hook it up to the TV to watch it.  Having said that I've missed more programs on a Tivo then the HR20 but then I have had a Tivo in one form or another for 6 years and the HR20 for only 4 months so that really isn't a good test.



> But anyone that is should complain, and publicly.


Yes they should. But just because they have a problem doesn't mean it's a pile of crap. It may be to them but it's not overall. I just saw a couple postings on the Tivo Community about a "partial" recording bug on the HR10. Ouch, it must be a pile of crap.  Sarcasm aside, all these receivers have their problems and people have many problems with one or the other.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> ...just because they have a problem doesn't mean it's a pile of crap. It may be to them but it's not overall. I just saw a couple postings on the Tivo Community about a "partial" recording bug on the HR10. Ouch, it must be a pile of crap.  Sarcasm aside, all these receivers have their problems and people have many problems with one or the other.


That rush to make a glittering generality of verbal castration (aka pile of crap) is used so often, so easily, and so thoughtlessly, that its annoying to the majority of us that don't either see it that way and/or don't have any such problems.

If people used that same criteria on all products/services (one or two problems = piece of crap), then we're all living in a world of manure fields....


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If people used that same criteria on all products/services (one or two problems = piece of crap), then we're all living in a world of manure fields....


Again, I think this is a strawman. At any rate, if I had a Prius and it "rebooted" once/month while driving, I'd call it a piece of crap even if that was the only problem. I have a Saab, and I've had 5 cooling leaks in the 4 years I've owned the car, including 3 totalling $1800 in the first year out of warranty (Saab and the dealer refused to help me), because of this I'm certainly hesitant to buy a Saab again.

So if I owned a HD DVR that rebooted, dropped recordings, locked up, or whatever often enough for me to remember it, I'd call it a piece of crap. Now, clearly not everyone has the same standards, and a decreasing percentage of people seem to be experiencing severe problems. But judging by the fact that DirecTV has seen it necessarily to release *near-weekly wide-release software upgrades for their HD DVR * means that the problems are pretty widespread, even if you personally aren't experiencing them.

I'd argue that for every one person you see complaining on this message board, multiple by ten or one hundred to get the true number of DirecTV customers experiencing the same problem.


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> *Yes, this last week... they have taken a chance to tap into the a "public" beta test of the system. And so far that chance has played out.*


Hopefully they found this a positive experience. I know I would be happy to test any future RC software package for this unit.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

jcricket said:


> Again, I think this is a strawman. At any rate, if I had a Prius and it "rebooted" once/month while driving, I'd call it a piece of crap even if that was the only problem. I have a Saab, and I've had 5 cooling leaks in the 4 years I've owned the car, including 3 totalling $1800 in the first year out of warranty (Saab and the dealer refused to help me), because of this I'm certainly hesitant to buy a Saab again.
> 
> So if I owned a HD DVR that rebooted, dropped recordings, locked up, or whatever often enough for me to remember it, I'd call it a piece of crap. Now, clearly not everyone has the same standards, and a decreasing percentage of people seem to be experiencing severe problems. But judging by the fact that DirecTV has seen it necessarily to release *near-weekly wide-release software upgrades for their HD DVR * means that the problems are pretty widespread, even if you personally aren't experiencing them.
> 
> I'd argue that for every one person you see complaining on this message board, multiple by ten or one hundred to get the true number of DirecTV customers experiencing the same problem.


Couple of things. I think D* has a leg to stand on here (though a weak, wobbly one) calling this release "very stable". IN the early releases, the MTBF for many was about 2.7 seconds. If they're seeing a MTBF of 1 month now, I think that's at least stable enough that they can take a little more time trying to work out the kinks before going national with their releases.

Also, I think the number of people experiencing problems in this forum is slightly disproportionate to the number of people as a whole. I don't have any facts to back it up except that many of the NEW users who have shown up in the last several months begin their first post with "I had problems with the HR20 anc found this site". The average joe who is NOT experiencing problems doesn't have any reason to go looking for this forum or others like it. We know based on update history and the stories by users on this forum that the problems are widespread, but, if it's an even split down the middle here, I don't think that 50% of the boxes nationwide are experiencing the same problems.


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## fwlogue (Dec 6, 2006)

btmoore said:


> The point was about earl calling 0xFA "very stable", a DVR is not a general purpose computer running a random collection of hardware and software you choose and can make crash, rather it is a closed system provided by D* who should be providing a "very stable" platform because they control everything about the box.


Yes they do but there still are several options that different users may or may not use. OTA or strictly sat, HDMI or composite, Networked or not, External or internal drive. When you get into HDMI what type of TV is it hooked up to are you doing both video and sudio or just video. There still are several variables.


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

I've never missed a program on my TiVo. Never had to reset it. Don't even know how to reset it. Ran it for a year before I went for the HR20. Never thought of looking online for help before the HR20. The HR20 still has problems as of my last update (0x10B) but is much better than it was just a few weeks ago. I think it is going to be a great DVR when the bugs are worked out. Just wish I didn't have to help a big company do it's job figuring out what's wrong with it. It should have been good from day one. If D* couldn't get people with enough skill to write software like the TiVo I had they should have made a deal with Tivo to do it for them. 

I find it hard to believe that some people have next to no problems with there HR20. Maybe D* should look at some of those HR20's and see what's inside that makes them work so much better than those that they must have in a big pile in the back room that were returned. Could be some were made with some different components inside. Maybe they know this already and just don't want to replace all the ones that don't work so great.

One thing I am going to do is on the next update is reformat the drive to give me a clean slate for the new software. That helped the most for me on OxFA. Love to try it now on 0x10B if they would only release it again for me to do that. 

Even with all the problems I and others have had it is interesting to see this product evolve over the past weeks into a more stable and usefull product. Can't wait to see the end result. Hope it is sooner than later!:eek2:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jcricket said:


> I'd argue that for every one person you see complaining on this message board, multiple by ten or one hundred to get the true number of DirecTV customers experiencing the same problem.


..and I'd argue for every poster who repeatedly complains here, there are 1000 satisfied HR20 users.

Its also a known fact that some of the items causing the "piece of crap" naming syndrome are self-induced. In other cases, they are installation, not equipment related. Many of the updates since the 90-day "new equipment" window has passed have been centered around new features and/or HDMI issues. HDMI is a tough nut to crack, as there are dozens of DVD players alone out there with similar issues, due to a variety of reasons (including TV manufacturer inconsistentcy in standards of HDMI 1.1, 1.2, etc. and internal connection circuitry).

By the way, after 3 months, not one reset, auto-delete, or missed recording/playback at all - not one. If you used that same kind of reasoning, the HR20 is perfect (which we all know is not the case).


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ..and I'd argue for every poster who repeatedly complains here, there are 1000 satisfied HR20 users.


You can argue it, but it doesn't make it true.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

bret4 said:


> I've never missed a program on my TiVo. Never had to reset it. Don't even know how to reset it. Ran it for a year before I went for the HR20. Never thought of looking online for help before the HR20. The HR20 still has problems as of my last update (0x10B) but is much better than it was just a few weeks ago. I think it is going to be a great DVR when the bugs are worked out. Just wish I didn't have to help a big company do it's job figuring out what's wrong with it. It should have been good from day one. If D* couldn't get people with enough skill to write software like the TiVo I had they should have made a deal with Tivo to do it for them.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that some people have next to no problems with there HR20. Maybe D* should look at some of those HR20's and see what's inside that makes them work so much better than those that they must have in a big pile in the back room that were returned. Could be some were made with some different components inside. Maybe they know this already and just don't want to replace all the ones that don't work so great.
> 
> ...


I find it hard to believe that you never missed a program on your tivo, or that it never froze or needed to be rebooted. I know this certainly wasn't the case for me. I had 4 HD Tivo's and several SD tivo's thru the years, and they were not bullet proof, and in my case, far from it. My HR10's had what I can only describe as an "unwatchable" bug where the recording was nothing but a garbled pixelated mess. This was replicated across all 4 at one time or other, but not all at the same time. This may have been a switching issue too, but for some reason, despite all the different configurations, it still didn't correct the problem. They sent me 2 HR20's to replace 2 HR10's. Other than one unwatchable, I have what I would consider a positive experience with the HR20's. Now that I have the Santa present, I can honestly say I am really happy with the HR20's. I only came to this forum to see what was being reported about the HR20's after they sending me as replacements. I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. Really glad I didn't see the problems that so many people have reported.
Kevin


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

btmoore said:


> You can argue it, but it doesn't make it true.


Nor for the original point.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Knon2000 said:


> I find it hard to believe that you never missed a program on your tivo, or that it never froze or needed to be rebooted. I know this certainly wasn't the case for me. I had 4 HD Tivo's and several SD tivo's thru the years, and they were not bullet proof, and in my case, far from it.


That's why hundreds of hacks had to be created over at TivoCommunity, many to circumvent all the problems (as well as ignite new capabilties). 


> Really glad I didn't see the problems that so many people have reported.
> Kevin


It surely would have polluted the reality.


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## Avarond (Dec 14, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ..and I'd argue for every poster who repeatedly complains here, there are 1000 satisfied HR20 users.
> 
> Its also a known fact that some of the items causing the "piece of crap" naming syndrome are self-induced. In other cases, they are installation, not equipment related. Many of the updates since the 90-day "new equipment" window has passed have been centered around new features and/or HDMI issues. HDMI is a tough nut to crack, as there are dozens of DVD players alone out there with similar issues, due to a variety of reasons (including TV manufacturer inconsistentcy in standards of HDMI 1.1, 1.2, etc. and internal connection circuitry).
> 
> By the way, after 3 months, not one reset, auto-delete, or missed recording/playback at all - not one. If you used that same kind of reasoning, the HR20 is perfect (which we all know is not the case).


Count me in as 1 of the 1000 satisfied users. 1 reboot when installed with 0xFA, 0 reboots and no missed recordings, and fast response on the menu since 0x10B.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

I guess the question is, regarding stability, do you think, even for a moment, before you press a trick play button, "I really hope this won't crash the unit"? When you set a recording, do you come back later and check the ToDo list to see if it is still there? When you go to List, and select a show to play, and the screen goes blank for a split second as the show loads, are you thinking "oh no, not again, ah, OK, it is playing..." Do you still have another DVR hooked up STRICTLY as a backup to catch missed recordings?

If you experience these symptoms, you cannot call your DVR stable.

I know I fall into this category. I am hopeful the HR20 will become stable soon, and it has certainly gotten better over the past two months, but its not there yet.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

btmoore said:


> You can argue _(how many happy customers there are)_, but it doesn't make it true.


More importantly, it doesn't matter. Of course there are lots of happy HR20 owners out there. I don't doubt it for a second. You don't spend a lot of time on message boards crowing about how great things are going. However, let's say there are 100,000 HR20s ouf there and 90,000 people are super happy with it. This means there are 10,000 unhappy people. 10% is pretty bad, especially if those 10,000 are really unhappy. Extrapolating further, let's say you have 1,000,000 installed HR20s and you have 900,000 happy people. You now have 100,000 really unhappy people, 10% of your customer base, ready to leave. That's a lot of customers who will leave and a lot of bad word of mouth. With the competition from Echostar, FIOS and cable, I don't think DirecTV wants those kinds of numbers. DVRs are supposed to be churn-reducing, not stomach-upset-inducing 

Again, I think the facts are pretty clear. DirecTV doesn't go to the trouble of releasing new software almost weekly for months at a time because a tiny minority of people in the world (i.e. people who report trouble on DBS-Talk forums) complain. There was/is obviously a larger problem here with the HR20. The R15, from what I read, is still stumbling along, more than a year after its release, which is pathetic (considering SD DVRs are even more "mature" than HD DVRs).

If someone told me there was a "good chance" their DVR wouldn't work with my TV because of some "HDMI" problem, I'd look elsewhere for my DVR. That's just silly, and I never heard about that problem with the HR10 (doesn't mean it didn't exist, but clearly it wasn't the kind of problem it is for the HR20).

Yes, DirecTV is addressing these issues, and I give them some credit for that. I'm just arguing they're not out of the woods yet and continued bug reports here are a good thing. I'd say that when it's been 3-4 months since the last national release that provides major/core stability fixes for a non-trivial group of people, then the HR20 is a "really stable".

As a postscript, I owned the original DishPlayer. It sucked. Crashed. Took my recordings with it. The first DirecTivo didn't suck, and that's why I switched to DirecTV. It never did anything I didn't expect until the hard drive started to fail (4 years later). The R10 I replaced that with hasn't given me a day of trouble. The HR10 has been similarly as stable (if slow), with the exception of the audio dropout bug introduced after 6.3a (which only affected OTA Fox channel recordings for me). That's just an anecdote, but I'm not moving from that (super stable, does the basics just right) to the HR20 given the current circumstances (only stable for most very recently, still no dual buffers or nationwide OTA support, etc.).


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's why hundreds of hacks had to be created over at TivoCommunity, many to circumvent all the problems (as well as ignite new capabilties).


What circumvention hacks are you talking about for the Tivo? I'm not aware of any hacks for the DirecTivo models except those that enabled features DirecTV didn't want to provide (MRV, HMO, Internet Scheduling, TTG).

Look, I'm not a Tivo fanboy. I hope/hoped the HR20 would be great (don't want to switch to Echostar or Comcast, if I can avoid it). The interface differences don't matter to me. But the R10 and HR10 were worlds more stable at the core than the R15 and HR20 have been. I think it's distorting the record to claim otherwise.

The R15 and HR20 will hopefully catch up in terms of stability and also hopefully surpass the R10 and HR10 in terms of features, but that remains to be seen at this point.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

islesfan said:


> I guess the question is, regarding stability, do you think, even for a moment, before you press a trick play button, "I really hope this won't crash the unit"? When you set a recording, do you come back later and check the ToDo list to see if it is still there? When you go to List, and select a show to play, and the screen goes blank for a split second as the show loads, are you thinking "oh no, not again, ah, OK, it is playing..." Do you still have another DVR hooked up STRICTLY as a backup to catch missed recordings?
> 
> If you experience these symptoms, you cannot call your DVR stable.
> 
> I know I fall into this category. I am hopeful the HR20 will become stable soon, and it has certainly gotten better over the past two months, but its not there yet.


And I guess I'm fortunate that I am not in the category. Had the HR20 for 4 months and only have had 2 lockups requiring a red button reboot and only one missed recording due to the partial bug that I haven't seen since then (about 2 months ago). So in my eye, for me only, the HR20 is stable. Obviously for others, in their eyes, it's not.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> And I guess I'm fortunate that I am not in the category. Had the HR20 for 4 months and only have had 2 lockups requiring a red button reboot and only one missed recording due to the partial bug that I haven't seen since then (about 2 months ago). So in my eye, for me only, the HR20 is stable. Obviously for others, in their eyes, it's not.


You see, this is a "reasonable" response 

I will say that in the 16 months I've owned the HR10 I've had zero lockups, zero reboots and zero partial recordings. I've had things not record because of bad guide data, conflicts I didn't "understand", rain/snow fade and some OTA antenna issues.

Having owned three generations of DVRs, I have a pretty high bar, especially if I have to pay for the DVR.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jcricket said:


> But the R10 and HR10 were worlds more stable at the core than the R15 and HR20 have been. I think it's distorting the record to claim otherwise.


*How soon they forget*. There were tons of updated firmware updates before the H10-250 was considered "stable and functional as designed".

Now that the HR20 is about 100 days old, its not that far off either....in fact, its taken less time than the H10-250 took to get to the same point.

We are probably 2 national releases from the point where the griping will be migrated over to wishlist requests with this box. In the mean time, the vast majority of owners are simply enjoying the HR20 at its current evolutionary state.


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## Coastsider (Nov 29, 2005)

islesfan said:


> I guess the question is, regarding stability, do you think, even for a moment, before you press a trick play button, "I really hope this won't crash the unit"? When you set a recording, do you come back later and check the ToDo list to see if it is still there? When you go to List, and select a show to play, and the screen goes blank for a split second as the show loads, are you thinking "oh no, not again, ah, OK, it is playing..." Do you still have another DVR hooked up STRICTLY as a backup to catch missed recordings?


Yes, yes, yes, and yes, my trusty old SAT-T60 DirecTivo.

Everything started off well since getting the HR20 about a month ago but over the last week or so it all began going wrong with lots of missed recordings and pretty much everything else you can mention. I figured a cold boot was in order but then the opportunity to download 10B came up last Friday night. After the unit came up on 10B I powered down again and installed a Seagate 500G eSATA hard drive I got about a week ago which gave me a nice clean baseline install and that works just fine. On Sunday I installed one of those Sonora polarity locker/power inserters ahead of my Zinwell WB68 multiswitch to take the load of powering the switch on the dish off of the HR20. In addition I have a laptop cooler on top of the unit which is identical to the one I got for my H20-600 to keep it from lighting on fire. It draws heat out of the unit and exhausts it to the rear and keeps the HR20 with the eSATA drive attached at an even 100 degrees. So now I figure I've got all of my bases covered and so far so good. In all fairness I live in an area with no OTA reception of any kind and so am not dealing with any potential issues around that feature of 10B and it is only Monday after 10B Friday so we'll see what happens tonight and for the rest of the week and so on. In the meantime, the Sony stays commissioned for security.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *How soon they forget*. There were tons of updated firmware updates before the H10-250 was considered "stable and functional as designed".
> 
> Now that the HR20 is about 100 days old, its not that far off either....in fact, its taken less time than the H10-250 took to get to the same point.
> 
> We are probably 2 national releases from the point where the griping will be migrated over to wishlist requests with this box. In the mean time, the vast majority of owners are simply enjoying the HR20 at its current evolutionary state.


Who cares how long it took the H10-250 or any other product to be stable and it really doesn't matter with regards to the HR20.

No one should release a product this unstable, it is D*'s 2nd gen HD DVR product, and 3 or 4 gen DVR product and it is a 7th or 8th generation product when compared to DVRs as a whole.

By this point in the technology cycle they should just work and work well when they come to market, it should be a question of features and functionality not stability and rebooting.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *How soon they forget*.Now that the HR20 is about 100 days old, its not that far off either....in fact, its taken less time than the H10-250 took to get to the same point.


But the HR10 was released as a fully functional DVR. The HR20 has been released in bits and pieces and many don't have (or don't know that they have) the Windows Media stuff nor OTA capability.

When there is widespread availability of the new features and subscribers are able to use them without problems, then we can start saying that the unit has reached a level of stability. In the software business, we call this "beta". In the software business (outside of the Windows world), there are still two more steps: gamma (or gold) and GA (general availability). In software, you can't still be adding major functionality during the gamma stage.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Who cares how long it took the H10-250 or any other product to be stable and it really doesn't matter with regards to the HR20.
> 
> No one should release a product this unstable, it is D*'s 2nd gen HD DVR product, and 3 or 4 gen DVR product and it is a 7th or 8th generation product when compared to DVRs as a whole.
> 
> By this point in the technology cycle they should just work and work well when they come to market, it should be a question of features and functionality not stability and rebooting.


OK...my turn to ....well....rant.

Well, I tell ya what...you be the person who waits a few more months to acheive the threshold for a release that YOU want. In the mean time, I'm using my HR20 with great satisfaction. One size doesn't fit all. Lots of us are very happy. So, put your HR20 in the closet for six months to a year and then try again. That way you won't have to suffer the vaguaries of D* having come to market too soon. While yours is collecting dust and getting better and better, those of us without such pristine standards will have been enjoying our HR20s the entire time.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda....bah humbug.

I've never seen so much market second-guessing in my life. You'd think they were investors. How about getting into the "now"....we can't change how they released the HR20. If it ain't good enough, decomission it until it is, or return it for a refund. I doubt D* is interested in your marketing advice, and I know I'm not.

Who are you trying to convince, D*?.....I'll bet after reading the plethora of "marketing advice" in some of these threads, they dismissed it long ago. The bottom line for a lot of us is simply would we rather have waited until "release nirvana critical mass" had been obtained, or gotten our HR20s when we did and then deal with what we have?

Count me in the latter, and not wasting my breath advising D* on when they should or shouldn't have released the HR20. It VERY OLD NEWS....and not particularly valuable to those of us that already have them.

It seems no matter what is done, some people are always disappointed...read the post histories of these people and they stand out like sore thumbs. Nothing is good enough...because perfection is an illusion. A beef is a beef, but really...marketing advice?

Quite frankly, if you're looking for perfection, avoid HD altogether...it isn't any where near "perfection" in ANY of its incarnations. Video, audio, you name it...it's very early for HD in general, and LOADED with flaws. I guess they never should have released any HD on the market yet, either.

Maybe the people who are so determined that D* is, has and will always screw up should go back to a crystal radio...they were pretty well done in the 50's...I'm sur e they might pass muster by now....then again...for some people....I wouldn't bet on it.

My sole reason for responding to this line of conversation is in the off chance that someone at D* might have some sort of psychotic break with reality and start listening to these 'complaints', to the extent that we stop getting updates while they 'perfect' them.

I'm glad they released the HR20 when they did. I'm glad they are issuing updates at the rate they have. I'm glad they gave us some windowed forced downloads for OTA et al. I'm glad they appear to be listening to rational, practical issues and not woulda, coulda, shoulda amateur marketing advice. I'm glad, I'm glad, I'm glad (thanks to Eric Clapton and Cream).

If anyone really believes the HR20 should not have been released and is in such terrible shape, and that D* is doing such a terrible job, SEND IT BACK, cancel your service, do what you need...I sure wouldn't put up with a product or company that shabby.

(D* can't hold you to a contract wherein they failed to provide the consideration offered in the contract. If anyone is determined (due to their experience with the HR20) to get their money back, if not cancel their service at no cost to them, all they have to do is pursue that avenue...it will open to them. Any lawyer worth his/her salt will tell you it's an open and shut case, when the consideration is NOT delivered.) So...no more excuses...if things are really as bad as some people say, get on the phone, write your letter, pack up that "bad ol' HR20" and drive it through D*'s showroom window.

That'll show 'em!

<rant off>


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## Bajanjack (Oct 22, 2006)

hasan said:


> OK...my turn to ....well....rant.
> 
> Well, I tell ya what...you be the person who waits a few more months to acheive the threshold for a release that YOU want. In the mean time, I'm using my HR20 with great satisfaction. One size doesn't fit all. Lots of us are very happy. So, put your HR20 in the closet for six months to a year and then try again. That way you won't have to suffer the vaguaries of D* having come to market too soon. While yours is collecting dust and getting better and better, those of us without such pristine standards will have been enjoying our HR20s the entire time.
> 
> ...


Well said!....Everyone has a right to voice their opinion, but as far as I am concerned, the "glass is half full"........Happy Holidays!!


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

hasan said:


> OK...my turn to ....well....rant.
> 
> ...
> 
> <rant off>


Feel better?

The HR20 is still the most unstable piece of equipment I have ever had in my AV system, including every piece of HD equipment even less stable then my 7 year old windows PC based OTA HD DVR system.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

btmoore said:


> No one should release a product this unstable ...


Somebody should tell Microsoft this ... 

I can agree with you that "very stable" is not the right terminology for the HR20. For me though, "sufficiently stable" is a more than accurate statement. I'd be more angry if the HR20 hadn't been released by now than I am at the current state of the product.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

brott said:


> Somebody should tell Microsoft this ...
> 
> I can agree with you that "very stable" is not the right terminology for the HR20. For me though, "sufficiently stable" is a more than accurate statement. I'd be more angry if the HR20 hadn't been released by now than I am at the current state of the product.


How can you tell? There are many who have had crashes under 0xFA and that has been out less than a month. It does appear to be more stable under 0xFA than prior versions.

Oh and what does MS have to do with this, that is a general propose OS with a an almost infinite variability in how it is configured with hardware and software not a closed system that is not modifiable like the HR20.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

btmoore said:


> How can you tell? There are many who have had crashes under 0xFA and that has been out less than a month. It does appear to be more stable under 0xFA than prior versions.


I can't, but all of the evidence here is anecdotal anyway. "sufficiently stable" are my words, for me to describe my situation .. Sorry that wasn't clear.



btmoore said:


> Oh and what does MS have to do with this, that is a general propose OS with a an almost infinite variability in how it is configured with hardware and software not a closed system that is not modifiable like the HR20.


Notice the  ? I guess it was a poor attempt at sarcasm.


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

Knon2000 said:


> I find it hard to believe that you never missed a program on your tivo, or that it never froze or needed to be rebooted. I know this certainly wasn't the case for me. I had 4 HD Tivo's and several SD tivo's thru the years, and they were not bullet proof, and in my case, far from it. My HR10's had what I can only describe as an "unwatchable" bug where the recording was nothing but a garbled pixelated mess. This was replicated across all 4 at one time or other, but not all at the same time. This may have been a switching issue too, but for some reason, despite all the different configurations, it still didn't correct the problem. They sent me 2 HR20's to replace 2 HR10's. Other than one unwatchable, I have what I would consider a positive experience with the HR20's. Now that I have the Santa present, I can honestly say I am really happy with the HR20's. I only came to this forum to see what was being reported about the HR20's after they sending me as replacements. I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. Really glad I didn't see the problems that so many people have reported.
> Kevin


The model of the TiVo I had was a RCA DVR80. And it is true that I never had one problem with. Never! To bad it doesn't do HD. Just checked two shows recorded on my HR20 and the two of them have no sound. Still got problems with 0x10B.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Knon2000 said:


> I find it hard to believe that you never missed a program on your tivo, or that it never froze or needed to be rebooted. I know this certainly wasn't the case for me. I had 4 HD Tivo's and several SD tivo's thru the years, and they were not bullet proof, and in my case, far from it. My HR10's had what I can only describe as an "unwatchable" bug where the recording was nothing but a garbled pixelated mess. This was replicated across all 4 at one time or other, but not all at the same time. This may have been a switching issue too, but for some reason, despite all the different configurations, it still didn't correct the problem. They sent me 2 HR20's to replace 2 HR10's. Other than one unwatchable, I have what I would consider a positive experience with the HR20's. Now that I have the Santa present, I can honestly say I am really happy with the HR20's. I only came to this forum to see what was being reported about the HR20's after they sending me as replacements. I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. Really glad I didn't see the problems that so many people have reported.
> Kevin


Wow. I've had 3 HD Directivos and several SD too. My only issues were bad input signals--either something affecting OTA or snow on the dish. And I don't blame either the HR10 nor the HR20 for things like that.  Not that I am saying that you are. (There are some people who accuse other people of blaming the HR20 for everything, reasonable or otherwise.)

But I will ask you, are you certain the pixelization was created by the HR10 and not from a weak, unstable, or interrupted input source? For instance multipath distortion on OTA is a tricky bugger to work out and the HR10 was a bit touchy for that (early generation HD tuner, is my guess and one of the reasons I'm looking forward to stable HR20s.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

hasan said:


> OK...my turn to ....well....rant.
> 
> Well, I tell ya what... ...if things are really as bad as some people say, get on the phone, write your letter, pack up that "bad ol' HR20" and drive it through D*'s showroom window.
> 
> That'll show 'em! <rant off>


Thank you, hasan. Well said. We're a small group of people and a small group of us keeps complaining. As someone else said (and I;ve said several times), there may have been a bad run of boxes, and there are some software defects, but basically this is a really solid system/computer. thanks again, Rich


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

richlife said:


> Thank you, hasan. Well said. We're a small group of people and a small group of us keeps complaining. As someone else said (and I;ve said several times), there may have been a bad run of boxes, and there are some software defects, but basically this is a really solid system/computer. thanks again, Rich


This is only "really solid system/computer" in 2 sigma terms. Not anywere near 6 sigma.

As a "computer" maybe, but I didn't buy a computer. I bought an appliance, that happens to have a computer within. Other things I own that have computers within: cars, dishwasher, clothes washer, VCR, TVs, ... All have CPUs, memory, software, input/output, operating systems, and some ability to "record" events. But none of them do I refer to as a "computer", nor do I use them as a computer. I use them as appliances. As do I want to use my DVR.

We are all welcome to measure satisfaction however we want to. I choose appliance-like stability as its in my HT not in my office (where I test software, so I'm willing to reboot and rebuild my PC often.) Others may feel that a 4th generation dvr has crossed over from appliance to computer, therefore more slack is permitted. That is their choice.

Fortunately, Directv is not resting on the stabilty levels being experienced. And because of the overall satisfaction with directv, I'm willing to help them thru the growing pains--if they are willing to let me call defects "defects" and not computer system-like features that we're all happy to excuse...

Now, as OP of this thread, I had NO idea it would roam so far from home or be even the slightest bit controversial . The discussions have been very passionate (obviously), for the most part civil, and very interesting.

Earl, Chris, I'm glad you've kept a light hand, allowing the discussion roam a bit. Thank you.

Merry Christmas, everyone.
Tom


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tibber said:


> This is only "really solid system/computer" in 2 sigma terms. Not anywhere near 6 sigma.
> 
> As a "computer" maybe, but I didn't buy a computer. I bought an appliance, that happens to have a computer within.


Sounds like something a consultant would say...you know a consultant...a person who steals you watch and then charges you a fortune every 5 minutes to tell you what time it is. 

Sorry sir...it has a processor, it has a power supply, it has a hard drive, it has I/O ports, it has memory....

...if it looks like a computer, and it operates like a computer, and it smells like a computer....then it *must* be a computer!

If you wanted an appliance, perhaps I could interest you in a toaster instead. I suspect it will pass the 6 sigma test just fine for you.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Knon2000 said:


> I find it hard to believe that you never missed a program on your tivo, or that it never froze or needed to be rebooted.


Actually, Yes. I have had 5 different SD DirecTiVo's, all had either an additional drive added or main drive replaced. I can only think of ONE instance where a program didn't record and it was traced to faulty guide data: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316380

And I really don't remember any of my SD units locking up. From an HDVR2 up through an R10.

Sorry.

The HR10's are a different story. I have had occasional lockups on them, one more than the other. Still running 3.1.5, but 6.3b seems to be stable so far, so I will probably let them upgrade is a couple more weeks.


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## ruthiesea (Dec 6, 2006)

From what I have read in other posts, it seems that the HR-20 must be on to receive an update. So, I should leave it on all night. Is this correct?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sounds like something a consultant would say...you know a consultant...a person who steals you watch and then charges you a fortune every 5 minutes to tell you what time it is.
> 
> Sorry sir...it has a processor, it has a power supply, it has a hard drive, it has I/O ports, it has memory....
> 
> ...


So, you would call a VCR, a TV, a dishwasher, a clothes washer, a car all computers???? They all have the attributes you ascribe to computers: processor, power supply, memory, recording capability(you called hard drive, I allow flash as well), and I/O--except they don't lock up (operate like). (Is that your criteria, lock up like a computer??)  

As for the toaster, you might like this one: http://www.embeddedarm.com/news/netbsd_toaster.htm. It is kinda geeky cute... )
In my mind, it is not what is inside a "thing", but what the "thing" is designed to do that determines whether or not I call it a computer. I compute on my computers, meaning general purpose, computerized activities. I don't generally call closed systems of embedded programming by the name computer. But maybe your refrigerator is now how you are surfing the web, typing your responses... :grin:

Now, I have some difficulty when I try to classify my grandson's leapster, a PS/3, or a Nintendo Wii. I can buy programs for use on them. I can buy supported hardware options and they do limited computing activity. But I am not sure I'm ready to think of it as I would think of a personal computer.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

ruthiesea said:


> From what I have read in other posts, it seems that the HR-20 must be on to receive an update. So, I should leave it on all night. Is this correct?


You should leave it plugged in and connected to the satellite, but no, you do not have to leave it turned on. The "off" state still receives data and upgrades from the satellite feeds. (Like most recent generation VCRs will receive time while off and some TVs will receive electronic programming guides while off.)

Merry Christmas,
Tom

BTW welcome to the forums :welcome_s 
Like your signature!


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## ruthiesea (Dec 6, 2006)

Thanks tibber for both the information and the comment on my signature.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tibber said:


> So, you would call a VCR, a TV, a dishwasher, a clothes washer, a car all computers????


It doesn't matter what *I* would want to call them. A computer may be an appliance, but an appliance usually isn't a computer.


> In my mind, it is not what is inside a "thing", but what the "thing" is designed to do that determines whether or not I call it a computer.


According to The American Heritage Science Dictionary - a computer is:

*A programmable machine that performs high-speed processing of numbers, as well as of text, graphics, symbols, and/or sound. All computers contain a central processing unit that interprets and executes instructions; memory that enables the computer to store programs and/or data; and output devices, such as printers and/or display screens, that show the results after the computer has processed data. *

Based on this, the HR20 *is* a computer.

Now that we've cleared that up.... :backtotop


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