# Will the 110° W satellite ever be used again by DirecTV in the continental United States?



## Pink Jazz (Jan 2, 2012)

Currently, in the continental United States, there are no channels being broadcasted from the 110° W satellite. DirecTV-5 at 110° W is currently being used to broadcast channels for the Puerto Rico market. However, DirecTV continues to produce LNBs supporting the 110° W satellite, despite there being no channels on that satellite for the continental United States.

So, does anyone think we will ever see new channels on the 110° W satellite in the continental United States again? Perhaps DirecTV-15 will be at 110° W and will broadcast new HD channels. However, I am not sure if the 110° W LNB on existing 5-LNB dishes is capable of picking up MPEG-4 signals.


----------



## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Sincerely doubt it;

DIRECTV is only licensed for three 24 MHz Ku band transponders there, and D5 is currently carrying 26 SD channels for PR on them. So there's no more room left for much anything else.

Plus 110 Ku serves a critical role for PR in that guide and other system control information for the island is also transmitted from tp. 28 (tp. 8 after down conversion) since PR subs. cannot receive the 101 satellites very well from their location.

And I also guess starting up a new production line of special LNBFs which excludes 101 and 119 just for PR would cost a lot more than simply using the currently produced SL-5s that are regularly installed here, and just not using the integrated 101 and 119 LNBFs on them much as we (who have SL-5s) no longer use 110.


----------



## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

HoTat2 said:


> Sincerely doubt it;
> 
> DIRECTV is only licensed for three 24 MHz Ku band transponders there, and D5 is currently carrying 26 SD channels for PR on them. So there's no more room left for much anything else.
> 
> ...


If they have problems receiving signals from 101, how would 110 be any easier? It's further west and lower on the horizon.


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

studechip said:


> If they have problems receiving signals from 101, how would 110 be any easier? It's further west and lower on the horizon.


The dishes don't have to be pointed as high. Florida has more issues with rain fade than other parts of the country since the dish look angle is so high.


----------



## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Herdfan said:


> The dishes don't have to be pointed as high. Florida has more issues with rain fade than other parts of the country since the dish look angle is so high.


Why would the angle matter?


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

indirectly; higher angle just telling you the sat's location and a shorter distance to it


----------



## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I would think the higher the angle, the less opportunity for any kind of fade. Less atmosphere for the signal to go through, fewer chances for storm fronts, etc. For people in the eastern half of the U.S., 110 is lower, and the signal is going through much more atmosphere, than 101. I'm on the west coast, and 110 is actually slightly higher in the sky than 101.


----------



## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

P Smith said:


> indirectly; higher angle just telling you the sat's location and a shorter distance to it


so less fade?


----------



## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

peds48 said:


> so less fade?


No way, I would say more, since your dish would be acting like a rain catcher while looking more directly through more of the high cloud tops. 
We had a Dish 1000.4 with a 42 Degree elevation and it was by far worse in heavy ran and snow then our Slimline with its 34 degree elevation


----------



## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

From what I can tell is that unlike the birds at 101, D5's (or Tempo 1) CONUS beam has a lobe which extends out from the U.S. mainland to cover Puerto Rico and near surrounding territories of the northern Caribbean.


----------



## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> The dishes don't have to be pointed as high. Florida has more issues with rain fade than other parts of the country since the dish look angle is so high.


I agree with this statement!


----------



## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

You would think that since the 110 isn't used to transmit anything to the Continental US they would modify the software so that satellite definitions that include the 110 (Slimline 5, Phase III, etc.) wouldn't bother checking the signals from it to pass the boot up sequence.


----------



## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

ThomasM said:


> You would think that since the 110 isn't used to transmit anything to the Continental US they would modify the software so that satellite definitions that include the 110 (Slimline 5, Phase III, etc.) wouldn't bother checking the signals from it to pass the boot up sequence.


and to pass IV. I have and a few installs where a tree would block the 110. DirecTV lost a few customers there for no reason.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

peds48 said:


> so less fade?


statistically speaking, but it would depend on weather (clouds, humidity, wind, etc)


----------



## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

P Smith said:


> statistically speaking, but it would depend on weather (clouds, humidity, wind, etc)


so signal wise, I am better of in FL or Vermont


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I would say yes: less distance to sat, water in an air would make difference against your location (again , weather is estimating statistically)

but, not tell me different numbers from the locations for one sat/tpn - to get valid compare, you'll need move your dish and the switch, the cables and a receiver to other location


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

peds48 said:


> Why would the angle matter?


Here is a simple example. Go outside during a hard rain and look at the house across the street. You can see it pretty well. Now look up though the rain to the top of a nearby tree. Which is easier to see? Same principle.


----------



## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

P Smith said:


> I would say yes: less distance to sat,


Really?? When you are 22,000 miles up you honestly think it makes any difference in signal From Vermont VS Florida. !rolling 
Florida also is a much lower state in elevation then Vermont too, so maybe Vermont is closer! :rolling:


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

lol as wish, but mother Nature will kick your a$$ anyway


----------



## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Like I said, I really think its just a case of D5 having a lobe on its CONUS beam which extends out SE from the US east coast to cover PR and the nearby surrounding territories of other Caribbean countries.

Whereas the 101 satellites' national beams do not have such an extension of their footprint 

And similar to Florida, since PR and the other areas are that much closer to the equator, 110w is still relatively high in the western horizon and easy for their subscribers' dishes to see even though D5 is further away west than the birds at 101.


----------



## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Herdfan said:



> Now look up though the rain to the top of a nearby tree. Which is easier to see? Same principle.


How come the tree is not used in the first example... !rolling


----------



## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

101 vs. 110 wouldn't matter for rain fade. The tops of the clouds at most are 30-40 thousand feet if you have a horrible, horrible storm. The satellites are 22k MILES away, and the difference at those angles are a few hundred miles at most. So, no matter which satellite you're looking at, the entire storm is in your LOS between you and the satellite if the storm comes over your house.

The only difference would be WHERE the storm goes, and of course that is completely random and would vary storm to storm. It's possible storm A would impact 101 more than 110, just because of where it was, but storm B could impact 110 more than 101 later on.


----------



## PrinceLH (Feb 18, 2003)

It's probably being used that way, to deny Dish the use of those 3 transponders. If they don't use them, they lose them!


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

PrinceLH said:


> It's probably being used that way, to deny Dish the use of those 3 transponders. If they don't use them, they lose them!


same idea as keep Guantanamo


----------



## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

PrinceLH said:


> It's probably being used that way, to deny Dish the use of those 3 transponders. If they don't use them, they lose them!
> 
> .


I agree that DIRECTV must find a way to make reasonable use of the three transponders 110, since the FCC does not allow spectrum squatting.

IOW, its essentially "use 'em or lose 'em" rule for such a valuable resource.

But OTOH, if for whatever technical reasons DIRECTV, like they do for service here in the CONUS, can't or won't send EPG, SI, receiver authorizations, FW upgrades, etc., data over the Ka band satellites, and the 101 birds won't cover PR, what other logical choice does DIRECTV have but to use 110 for this purpose?


----------



## PrinceLH (Feb 18, 2003)

Too bad that they couldn't arrange a transponder swap with Dish. Trade 3 from 119, for the three at 110. Are they even using the 119 transponders for anything other then locals these days?


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

119w is the core of dish's system; they will not give half of tpn from the sat


----------



## PrinceLH (Feb 18, 2003)

It would be a 3 for 3 trade. They could then have the whole 110 satellite to themselves. Dish is also using a linear satellite at 119w too, aren't they?


----------



## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

PrinceLH said:


> It would be a 3 for 3 trade. They could then have the whole 110 satellite to themselves. Dish is also using a linear satellite at 119w too, aren't they?


What 3 transponders do you suggest DIRECTV receive in return that Dish or Echostar could offer which would really do them any real benefit though?

And no, DN does not use any linearly polarized satellites at 119 to my knowledge.

E14, their currently active bird for DBS programming at 119 is circularly polarized. And Anik F3 at 118.7 (virtually 119) for international programming also uses circular polarization, but on the commercial FSS band (11.7-12.2 GHz).

The only such U.S. domestic satellite to do that I understand.

EDIT: See earlier that you suggested swapping the three tps. at 110 for three at 119. But the footprint of D7S there does not cover PR and is even further away now than 110.

Plus I don't see where Dish would really gain anything from such a trade.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

PrinceLH said:


> It would be a 3 for 3 trade. They could then have the whole 110 satellite to themselves. Dish is also using a linear satellite at 119w too, aren't they?


There is no benefit to DISH to have the whole satellite to themselves. They already get to use the 29 other transponders to the maximum extent allowed by law ... getting the last three wouldn't change that. And giving up three transponders at 119 doesn't help DISH.

It would help DirecTV to not need to have a satellite at 110 ... but what is the benefit to DISH?


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

There is no benefit to DISH to have the whole satellite to themselves. They already get to use the 29 other transponders to the maximum extent allowed by law ... getting the last three wouldn't change that. And giving up three transponders at 119 doesn't help DISH.

It would help DirecTV to not need to have a satellite at 110 ... but what is the benefit to DISH?
heck I don't even see a benifit to dtv either really. Not at this point in time. 

I have begun to half wonder if DIRECTV isn't going to move everything that's on 119 to d14 or d15 and use 119 for pr as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk mobile app


----------



## jcwest (May 3, 2006)

If a big ugly thunderstorm moves between your dish and the satellite it really doesn't matter what angle the dish is set, the signal is reduced or lost.

J C


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

jcwest said:


> If a big ugly thunderstorm moves between your dish and the satellite *it really doesn't matter what angle the dish is set*, the signal is reduced or lost.
> 
> J C


actually matter, less angle - longer distance would create bigger potential area to heavy clouds come into the angle of your antenna


----------



## PrinceLH (Feb 18, 2003)

I was thinking, that any transponders that Directv have at 119 could be configured for spotbeam use, on the west coast, Alaska and Hawaii. Some of their locals, regional sports networks and western feeds could be contained on that bird. Picking up 3 from Dish, in exchange for the 110 transponders makes sense for Directv, but like was mentioned, it doesn't do much for Dish. It just gives them sole ownership of that location in the arc. You might even make a case for the opposite, by trading the Directv 119 transponders, for the same at 110w. It would make for an easier point, for the Directv dish and compact their signals into an 11 degree spread.


----------



## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

PrinceLH said:


> I was thinking, that any transponders that Directv have at 119 could be configured for spotbeam use, on the west coast, Alaska and Hawaii. Some of their locals, regional sports networks and western feeds could be contained on that bird. Picking up 3 from Dish, in exchange for the 110 transponders makes sense for Directv, but like was mentioned, it doesn't do much for Dish. It just gives them sole ownership of that location in the arc. You might even make a case for the opposite, by trading the Directv 119 transponders, for the same at 110w. It would make for an easier point, for the Directv dish and compact their signals into an 11 degree spread.


AFAIK, D7S at 119 cannot redistribute CONUS transponders to spotbeam service or vice-versa, nor are the SBs independently steerable. Like its brothers D4S and D9S, D7S has only two possible configurations depending on whether it is positioned at 101 or 119.

At 119 it is fixed at 44 transponders assigned to 30 beams. 1 CONUS beam with 7 transponders assigned and 29 spotbeams aimed at the geographical areas illustrated below with 37 transponders distributed over them.










Continued ...


----------



## RMichals (Sep 28, 2008)

Since Directv never custom built and launched a satellite to 110, they have always used their older satellites to keep 110 active, if they had built one custom for 110 perhaps they could have re-used the three transponders and made it all spotbeams at 110 allowing them to cover a ton of markets across conus. However, there is still another unforeseen problem with this scenario and that is the regional uplink freq would have had to be coordinated with the dish spotbeam uplinks also at 110. So among other uses 110 is a storage spot in case directv needs to quickly relocate that asset to either 101 or 119 in case of emergency. A tactic dish network practiced for a long time until recently when most of the junk at 157, 148, 129, 77, 61.5 became so old it could not even serve as a guasi placeholder or be relocated.


----------



## PrinceLH (Feb 18, 2003)

Does Directv still have assets at 72w? They where using it for locals a while back, but I think that they've migrated to the 99/101/103 area. Those Dish locations, are they still using placeholders there? I know that 61.5 was also being used by religious broadcasters.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

Plus you'd have an entire mess of upgrading everyone's equipment if they were to put 110 or 119 in use for anything but what they're in use for now.

The Spanish package, the former Jadeworld package (I think it's Cantonese Direct now), select SD locals and several Sonic Tap channels are on 119. Prior to around 2005 non-HD installs for these cases got a dish that only received 119 and 101. (Eventually they started using the 3 LNB dish for everything)
Before the Puerto Rico launch, 110 used to be some HD channels, during this pre-MPEG4 era, HD installs got a dish that got 101, 110, 119
After the MPEG4 debut, the AT-9 and later the Slimline 5 which got 99,101,103,110 and 119 were the norm for HD.
Because of numerous line of site issues in much of the northeast, they later came out with the Slimline 3 which got 99, 101 and 103.

If they were to bring 110 back for any major national use, they would need to either swap every Slimline 3 out with either a Slimline 5, bringing back all those line of site issues, or come out with a new LNB/Dish that gets 99,101,103 and 110. Still having the potential chance of line of site issues.

The same goes if they swap transponders on 110 and 119, they would need to swap out all those 101 and 119 only dishes.



PrinceLH said:


> Does Directv still have assets at 72w? They where using it for locals a while back, but I think that they've migrated to the 99/101/103 area. Those Dish locations, are they still using placeholders there?


The satellite that was there moved and is now covering Russia at 55.8e. The actual slot is now used by Dish for their Eastern arc.


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

PrinceLH said:


> Does Directv still have assets at 72w? They where using it for locals a while back, but I think that they've migrated to the 99/101/103 area. Those Dish locations, are they still using placeholders there? I know that 61.5 was also being used by religious broadcasters.


The 72.5* satellite was sold to the Russian Space Service and they relocated it to 55* or so, I believe.


----------



## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

PrinceLH said:


> I was thinking, that any transponders that Directv have at 119 could be configured for spotbeam use, on the west coast, Alaska and Hawaii. Some of their locals, regional sports networks and western feeds could be contained on that bird. Picking up 3 from Dish, in exchange for the 110 transponders makes sense for Directv, but like was mentioned, it doesn't do much for Dish. It just gives them sole ownership of that location in the arc. You might even make a case for the opposite, by trading the Directv 119 transponders, for the same at 110w. It would make for an easier point, for the Directv dish and compact their signals into an 11 degree spread.


Though I did notice after looking over the FCC filing data for D9S at 101, it does have an option for switching SB transponders 26 and 28 over to CONUS beam service if they wished.

(Its equipped with odd transponder 27 which can be switched to CONUS service as well, but is already being provided by D8)

The problem of course is that DIRECTV would lose some SB capacity on their SD network with such a move.

Notice in the red box and the following notes in the illustration of downlink transponder plan for D9S.


----------

