# 0x11b = Worst Update Yet?



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

No poll, but after almost a week now with this update, I have no idea how the geniouses at D* thought this was an upgrade and was needed to quell the storm of calls into customer service.

I had sporadic (as in maybe once per week) problems before.

Since last Friday:

**6 RBR due to freezes and black/gray screens while watching live TV :nono2: 

**Lockup while wathcing a recorded program while another was recording. :nono: 

**Missed recording a program on Thursday night.  


This has to be the most frustrating tech product I have ever owned...$299 was an absolute rip off.

And all this with no hope in sight...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cookpr said:


> No poll, but after almost a week now with this update, I have no idea how the geniouses at D* thought this was an upgrade and was needed to quell the storm of calls into customer service.
> I had sporadic (as in maybe once per week) problems before.
> Since last Friday:
> **6 RBR due to freezes and black/gray screens while watching live TV :nono2:
> ...


I can agree with you. If mine did this, I would:
1- watch all of my recordings.
2- go into the setup and do a reset "everything" [wiping out everything but the software].
3- if it still acted this bad, I would call D* and have them send out a replacement.
This type of "performance" I don't tolerate.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> I can agree with you. If mine did this, I would:
> 1- watch all of my recordings.
> 2- go into the setup and do a reset "everything" [wiping out everything but the software].
> 3- if it still acted this bad, I would call D* and have them send out a replacement.
> This type of "performance" I don't tolerate.


....and yet others don't have these problems....hmmmmm...that's what's making all this so challenging.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ....and yet others don't have these problems....hmmmmm...that's what's making all this so challenging.


Mine isn't this bad [I wouldn't tolerate it]. Since "most" don't seem to have the problem, if it can't be "flushed out" [reset everything] I would try changing the hardware. but I'm a "hardware guy" so what the hell do I know? The Air Force trained me as an "integrated avionics system specialist" & I like challenges.


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## banningview (Dec 13, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ....and yet others don't have these problems....hmmmmm...that's what's making all this so challenging.


dost thou doubtest the sincerity of some...


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

While not as bad as cookpr mine has taken a decided turn for the worse with this update. Oh I long for the days of FA. After only one corrupt recording in 6 weeks I have had 3 this week. Not good.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

banningview said:


> dost thou doubtest the sincerity of some...


Some people can't let these threads go without rubbing it in how good their receiver is.


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## keefer34 (Jan 18, 2007)

Only problem I had with 010b was audio dropping out on DiscoveryHD with Dolby on. Still have this problem and numerous others since 011b. 
Slower channel changing.
Choppy playback on recorded shows
BSOD

Please give me back 010b!


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

NYSmoker said:


> Some people can't let these threads go without rubbing it in how good their receiver is.


When my receiver was working well I kept my mouth shut and i'm glad I did. Now that mine disappointing me daily.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

NYSmoker said:


> Some people can't let these threads go without rubbing it in how good their receiver is.


But isn't the question of the thread....
"Worst Update Yet?"

Thus, to discuss that Question... you would have discussions from all sides.
That would includes those that that think it is the worst, as well as those that don't.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But isn't the question of the thread....
> "Worst Update Yet?"
> 
> Thus, to discuss that Question... you would have discussions from all sides.
> That would includes that that think it is the worst, as well as those that don't.


Yep. It does appear that it is the worst for some people, and the best for others (including me). Obviously I don't know which group is larger


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

I know how you feel. 

For me, 0x119 was the worst by far. I had never known HR20 misery until 0x119. Now with 0x11B, it is by far the best build I have ever had.

Think about this. Our receivers take in GHz signals. A resistor or capacitor spec'ed at 1% may seem pretty good, but what does that do if your unit is at the far end of the tolerance band.

I have been talking with another member offline about this. His theory is that maybe this is a timing or race problem. That could explain why one build is great for some and awful for others.

Imagaine being the programmer trying to figure that out. Worse, it is a real-time, embedded, proprietary application. There is nothing worse.

- Craig


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But isn't the question of the thread....
> "Worst Update Yet?"
> 
> Thus, to discuss that Question... you would have discussions from all sides.
> That would includes that that think it is the worst, as well as those that don't.


If it was constructive then yes I could see it, but certain people just rub it in and basically say I can't believe an HR20 isn't working mine is great and you must be at fault somehow. It is almost as bad as saying an Apple product might have a flaw on Slashdot or Digg, saw you there Earl.


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## qlanus (Sep 22, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Yep. It does appear that it is the worst for some people, and the best for others (including me). Obviously I don't know which group is larger


I think I do. Look at every poll. If memory serves correctly, a vast majority (generally 75+%) of respondents of any poll are either very or moderately satisfied, or have few or no problems - and the trend seems to be moving in the right direction. Granted, this level of complete functionality is not acceptable in consumer products (and I won't make excuses - nor am I a shill for - D*), but it certainly reflects the fact that problem systems are a significant minority and becoming more so.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

NYSmoker said:


> If it was constructive then yes I could see it, but certain people just rub it in and basically say I can't believe an HR20 isn't working mine is great and you must be at fault somehow. It is almost as bad as saying an Apple product might have a flaw on Slashdot or Digg, saw you there Earl.


Yes, I have been to Digg.. and yes, I have used Apple as a comparison, in generic terms.

But if you are not having problems... what should you say then in this argument, that won't sound patronizing the issues of others?

If I say: Mine is working okay
or
Mine doesn't missing recordings
I haven't had issues playing back recordings
I haven't had to reboot since the update...

Either one "seems" to be rubbing it in, to the person that is having problems.

In general, in almost all cases:
If you have problems: there are specific things you can point at
If you don't have problems: there is really nothing specific you can lock onto, unless you want to discuss one particular aspect of the unit.


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## byron (Nov 15, 2004)

0x11b has been *VERY* stable for me... perhaps the most reliable release for me since OTA has been enabled.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, I have been to Digg.. and yes, I have used Apple as a comparison, in generic terms.
> 
> But if you are not having problems... what should you say then in this argument, that won't sound patronizing the issues of others?
> 
> ...


Fair enough, but why do the same 2 or 3 people feel the need to pop into every thread like this. If the people with problems are the minority, shouldn't there be a plethora of people who can make these comments? Maybe the line we are being fed about this minority is not in fact true. Maybe the people with problems are the majority! I for one have not had any problems since my Saturday update and reboot, however, I am not posting in favor of this update or not until I can go 2 weeks or so and see what happens. That seems to be the magic number 10-12 days from reboot it works fine after that it all goes to hell.

I also didn't mean you used Apple personally, I just read the Digg story about the HR20 and saw your post there. I was just referring to what could be called blind loyality to a company that exists only to make money.


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## robpac (Oct 30, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> For me, 0x119 was the worst by far. I had never known HR20 misery until 0x119. Now with 0x11B, it is by far the best build I have ever had.
> 
> I have to agree completely with the above. My receiver had some problems, but not many utnil 119. That made the receiver almost unusable so i downgraded back to the national release at that time. Now though, 11B has cleared up just about all of my problems. I don't have any issues with it.


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## mjwagner (Oct 8, 2005)

To answer the question in the subject - no 0x11b has not been "the worst update yet" for me. In fact, this has been the best update yet for me. It fixed a number of problems that I had been having.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Whether or not this release is giving you headaches, can you really say this is the worst? I seem to recall some pretty heated rhetoric around here when version 0xDC came out, and it continued through version 0xEB. It was so bad that Earl had to list new rules about inappropriate threads. 

When I want to gauge how a release is going for most people I look at the number and intensity of the "angry/POS/POC/worst" threads. There seem to be a lot fewer with this release. We all want to get to the point where no one has to rant of course. That's the goal. 

Bottom line is, you have my sympathies if it's the worst yet for you, but it sure seems like the number of people for whom it is the worst yet is lower than previous.


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## ZDawg (Nov 7, 2006)

I know they'd never do it, but it would be nice to be able to pick your SW version. FA was the most stable for me by a LONG shot. 10B was the least stable. So far 11B has had no RBR or missed recordings, that I know of. But I have had PQ issues with 11B. 

Z


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

I admit it is depressing hearing so many good things, and I was so hopeful I would be among them. But after two solid days, I have had many poor days. I'm worried D* will take their time getting a new release out because many seem to be having few problems now, thereby prolonging the misery for the rest of us.

At the end of my rope now. They gotta get cracking.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

NYSmoker said:


> Fair enough, but why do the same 2 or 3 people feel the need to pop into every thread like this. If the people with problems are the minority, shouldn't there be a plethora of people who can make these comments? Maybe the line we are being fed about this minority is not in fact true. Maybe the people with problems are the majority! I for one have not had any problems since my Saturday update and reboot, however, I am not posting in favor of this update or not until I can go 2 weeks or so and see what happens. That seems to be the magic number 10-12 days from reboot it works fine after that it all goes to hell.
> 
> I also didn't mean you used Apple personally, I just read the Digg story about the HR20 and saw your post there. I was just referring to what could be called blind loyality to a company that exists only to make money.


Not a problem bout the Apple thing... I know I have used it in my comparisons befoe... not a big deal.

As for why it is the same people... The same could be said for the "other side" as well... there are a few that pipe in with negative comments, in a lot of the posts. While I would rather the discussions be more indepth and more people participate...... just not practical in an open forum board like this.


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## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

I must admit, it is very interesting the polar oppsite some our having with this update...

I could live with the sporadic problems before, they were a nuisance, but not that frequent.

Seems like 11xb has brought the hammer for some..,

It is to the point I will be exchaning this box if the next update (soon I hope) does not revert the course it sent my HR20 down...


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## wakajawaka (Sep 27, 2006)

For me all the releases have been pretty much the same as I have had very little problems at all.



> Some people can't let these threads go without rubbing it in how good their receiver is.


Come on, not one post in this thread has even come close to rubbing it in.


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## upnorth (Jun 21, 2006)

NYSmoker said:


> If it was constructive then yes I could see it, but certain people just rub it in and basically say I can't believe an HR20 isn't working mine is great and you must be at fault somehow. It is almost as bad as saying an Apple product might have a flaw on Slashdot or Digg, saw you there Earl.


This is a two way street and I for one am one of those that have not had any problems with my HR20 and have also posted that at times.
And have been blasted for it been called a D* Lover or employee or a HR20 Defender why is it some people that are having problems just do not believe there are others that are NOT having the problems.
I feel it is important to keep in mind that the unit does work and work well for some.
And I do understand that there are many users having problems and I do feel for them that is why I read this forum faithfully everyday hoping that the problems get smaller and smaller.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

I have to agree that this is the worst *step back *in an update (not including 119, which I was only stuck with for a couple of days, but appeared to be equally bad). I've had the HR20 since October 7, 2006, so I have definitely seen worse than 11b, but none of the updates I have received so far have been as significant of a step backwards as this one.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

For me 11B is better than both 119 and 115. 10B worked pretty well for me but so far, 11B is better--only one lockup to date.

Many of us who have few complaints are tired of posting that our box is working acceptably, because it seems to rub so many people the wrong way.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

cookpr,

I'm sorry for your pain. I understand your frustration. I've been there. Venting it out will likely help. 

Take a deep breath (ok, you've likely already taken several, since I'm a bit late to the thread.)

Have you described more specifics in the issues thread? Specifics about your configuration, what shows were missed or shows you were in that needed RBR?

Or if you'd rather here in this thread. We'll keep the lights on for you and help you as we can. 

Thanks,
Tom


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

upnorth said:


> This is a two way street and I for one am one of those that have not had any problems with my HR20 and have also posted that at times.
> And have been blasted for it been called a D* Lover or employee or a HR20 Defender why is it some people that are having problems just do not believe there are others that are NOT having the problems.
> I feel it is important to keep in mind that the unit does work and work well for some.
> And I do understand that there are many users having problems and I do feel for them that is why I read this forum faithfully everyday hoping that the problems get smaller and smaller.


I'm not saying you shouldn't post if you unit works. In fact you don't stand out as one of the 2 or 3 posters I speak of. Granted, I don't frequent the "My HR20 Works" threads because for the most part mine doesn't work, so I don't see the "how can yours possibly work" posts. But you can obviously see my frustration with people who don't have anything to say other than, HAHA mine works, or BS this is a POS.


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

Everything is working good for me right now.


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## Garand762 (Sep 27, 2006)

wakajawaka said:


> For me all the releases have been pretty much the same as I have had very little problems at all.
> 
> I too have had very few problems with this release or any of the others. Since September only 4 re-boots overall the DVR has been very stable.
> 
> I think some with little to no problems don't respond to these posts because of the reaction of those with problems. My .02


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

upnorth said:


> And have been blasted for it been called a D* Lover or employee or a HR20 Defender.


Take heart, I've been called those things, as well as a Pollyanna, a shill, an Kung Fu Zen Master (for suggesting that people calm down and respect each other), out of touch, etc. Still nothing compared to what's lobbed at Earl.

At the moment, talking about DBS is one of my hobbies. I enjoy it, and I enjoy being able to help people with their issues when I can. As far as I see, there are a lot of people with kind hearts, good characters, and encyclopedic knowledge of consumer electronics, engineering, and software development here. I agree with some and don't agree with others about what needs to be done next.

It's also a good place to occasionally shout out if you're bitter about your latest experience so you can let it go. I've done my share of that too. But -- here's where I risk getting flamed again -- don't let your anger take over. It's not worth it.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

If I were to do a reformat. What order should I do things for maximum effect. Should I format, reforce a download, redo setup, etc. What and in what order? Thanks.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Tom_S said:


> If I were to do a reformat. What order should I do things for maximum effect. Should I format, reforce a download, redo setup, etc. What and in what order? Thanks.


That order sounds about right - First watch everything you want to watch, or can watch. Also make a list of your favorite channels and series links, You will think that you're going to remember them but if you're like me, you'll miss something.

Resetting everything is going to take you back to the original version of the software, I'm pretty sure. Confirm it after you format.

If you need to force an update, I'd do an additional reset after it comes back, before you do any personalization. Just my opinion, others disagree on this.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> That order sounds about right - First watch everything you want to watch, or can watch. Also make a list of your favorite channels and series links, You will think that you're going to remember them but if you're like me, you'll miss something.
> Resetting everything is going to take you back to the original version of the software, I'm pretty sure. Confirm it after you format.
> If you need to force an update, I'd do an additional reset after it comes back, before you do any personalization. Just my opinion, others disagree on this.


I have to disagree. Doing a reset everything will not change the software version. I've done this several times. It is the best way to clear out the unit [IMO] but what ever software is in the unit DOESN'T get cleared.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

This release has been similar to 10B for me. (Started out solid, and has gotten progressively worse)

I wish we could all stop arguing about whether or not there are "real" problems with this box. 

I have to say I think it is ridiculous that there are two camps in this forum. 

Camp 1: D* is out to get me, who do they think they are putting out a product like this? I'm gonna sue those @#[email protected] programmers.

Camp 2: D* Can do no wrong. The problems are user or installation related. The HR20 works fine for me, so it isn't logically possible that others are having a horrendous experience with this box. 

People: The truth lies somewhere in the middle. 

Camp1: C'mon - the programmers are busting their butts to fix this thing. It has to be obvious to you with all the updates coming down the pipe. D* needs this box to be successful and BAD PRESS is not going to help them. It's okay to report your problems, and to raise issue with your plight (paying for a beta product). But attacking D* employees and declaring what a POS the box is, isn't helping anyone. D* knows the box is a problem, and they are trying to address it.

Camp2: C'mon - with the amount of problems being reported, you can't seriously think that many people are incompetent. That there are that many bad installations. And what's with getting defensive over user problems? Yep. Some people are immature about how they report them, and there is nothing wrong with calling them out - but it is not any more helpful to them, or this board, to contradict them and antagonize them by pointing out some users are having no problems.

My experience with this build has been that it started out solid - but as time has gone on, I've had more problems with Audio, corrupt recordings, and choppy recordings with video drop outs. All we can do is report them in the issues thread and hope the coders can correct the problem. 

Rant over.


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## jaybee (Jun 22, 2006)

banningview said:


> dost thou doubtest the sincerity of some...


I had two BSBs since putting in 11b. Are you calling me a liar? Just because you haven't had the problem doesn't mean that everyone should have the same experience. I want this box to work well so that I can retire my HR10. That's it! I'm sure most of us with problems are just frustrated and angry with the problems. I came to this forum before I got the HR20 because it was a good source of info. I knew going into this that there would be some problems and hoped they could be worked out in a decent timeframe. But now I'm seeing that there are a few people that want to run off anyone reporting problems. I thought you wanted feedback to work this out?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I have to disagree. Doing a reset everything will not change the software version. I've done this several times. It is the best way to clear out the unit [IMO] but what ever software is in the unit DOESN'T get cleared.


I will defer to you on this, I've only done it once and it was a while back.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> I have to disagree. Doing a reset everything will not change the software version. I've done this several times. It is the best way to clear out the unit [IMO] but what ever software is in the unit DOESN'T get cleared.


You are absolutely correct. What a reset everything does do, is clear out the data structures for the SL, recorded items, history, etc. There was a short time where a collection of releases had data structure problems (most notably with manual recurring recordings) and clearing everything did make a difference. Since that has been cleared up, I'm not sure a reset all has any real value.

But, I would do that before I ever sent a unit back. It still might clean up something I'm unaware of and is easier than getting a replacement, installing it, etc.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Why isn't this whole thread under 0x11B issues or discussion?

- Craig


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Because we hijacked it. It was a POS thread and we turned it positive.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Thanks to all for their input.
I started out "only" to say what I would do if mine gave me the trouble the first poster had.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

banningview said:


> dost thou doubtest the sincerity of some...


I doubtest not anyone...just knowest to the contrary for some(est?)....


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> This release has been similar to 10B for me. (Started out solid, and has gotten progressively worse)
> 
> I wish we could all stop arguing about whether or not there are "real" problems with this box.
> 
> ...


Yes as I said earlier it seems 10-12 days without a reboot and it all goes to hell. The software doesn't seem to be able to stay stable, like there is a memory leak and the resources are used up after a certain amount of time and the software processes won't release the resources it doesn't need. I know the prioritizer does maintenance and I wonder if there are any other processes for maintenance with other aspects of the software. Like the cron tasks on a Mac.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

NYSmoker said:


> Yes as I said earlier it seems 10-12 days without a reboot and it all goes to hell. The software doesn't seem to be able to stay stable, like there is a memory leak and the resources are used up after a certain amount of time and the software processes won't release the resources it doesn't need. I know the prioritizer does maintenance and I wonder if there are any other processes for maintenance with other aspects of the software. Like the cron tasks on a Mac.


I don't think mine has EVER gone longer than a week without a reboot--certainly not recently. If all I have to do is reboot weekly, or bi-weekly, I don't consider that too bad, but I know to some it is unacceptable.

I have seen the problems with the HR20 blamed on a "memory leak" weeks ago by someone else, so you may be onto something. I totally don't know what a memory leak is, but I DON'T want it!


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

NYSmoker said:


> Yes as I said earlier it seems 10-12 days without a reboot and it all goes to h


I think that's why it's really important that the developers wait a little while longer this time before getting out another release candidate. I think the time frame has been pretty much right for national releases, but for those here, and for west coasters in general, the updates have come very quickly.

I appreciate it and I agree that they were needed but it seems to me that with 0xFA and 0x10b there was an increase in issue postings after the first few days. As long as we can all wait a little longer, there's something to be gained by seeing how the software behaves in subsequent weeks. Maybe it's just my perception.

You're right, it's possible that there are persistent issues that are not even cleared up by red button resets. For example, there could be activity logs that get full, disk caches that are not emptied on restart, etc. Maybe reloading the software fixes it. Maybe reloading the same version does not fix it. I could imagine scenarios where that could be true.

To get back to topic, if we could agree that for more and more people, this is not the worst update ever, then maybe we could agree that it's ok to let the developers do a little more testing before bringing us another release candidate.

Again, if this is the worst update ever for you, you have my sympathies, seriously.


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

I have a new observable - for me - with this release. Last night, 4x rewind went through a 90 minute buffer in about 4 or 5 seconds - repeatedly. Then went back to sound-barrier-breaking normal 4x. Can't reproduce it, didn't reset or anything - it just changed its mind.

Just thought I'd share as I couldn't find the same using a forum search - I was more amused than anything else.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> D* knows the box is a problem, and they are trying to address it.


I agree that they are working hard on it, but if you call D* for tech support, this is *not *the impression they give. I have been treated on numerous occastions like I am the only person out there with my particular problem (BSOD, IKD, CIR, you name it. Yes, believe it or not, according to a D* tech rep, I must have gotten a weird box, because my HR20 is the *only one out there where you cannot edit the Channels I Receive*. No kidding.)

The programmers may be working hard, but the CIR's are in complete cover up mode, and as a result, many of us are beyond disgusted in their "service."


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

11b has been the worst version for me so far...119 was much better.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

islesfan said:


> I agree that they are working hard on it, but if you call D* for tech support, this is *not *the impression they give. I have been treated on numerous occastions like I am the only person out there with my particular problem (BSOD, IKD, CIR, you name it. Yes, believe it or not, according to a D* tech rep, I must have gotten a weird box, because my HR20 is the *only one out there where you cannot edit the Channels I Receive*. No kidding.)
> 
> The programmers may be working hard, but the CIR's are in complete cover up mode, and as a result, many of us are beyond disgusted in their "service."


I understand your point, and feel your pain. (And if I wasn't so sure D* was trying to right the ship, I would be much more likely to cause a stir over your point.) But D*'s CSR problems are a completely different matter. You are lucky enough to have found this forum, so you really shouldn't need to contact their CSRs for HR20 specific problems, and I would bet 100 bucks that your complaints are going to be heard by D* more here on this board than by calling a CSR.

That said - I like to be a Realist about this whole situation. D*'s legal department would NEVER allow a CSR to say something to the effect, "Yeah we know the HR20 is plagued with problems, but we are working on it." In a litagation happy country, companies just can't afford to make those kinds of statements. Instead they have to fix these kinds of problems under the radar with the participation of sites like this. And even then- not admit to there being a problem - only to admit they are always trying to improve their products and services.


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## Galactus (Jan 13, 2007)

I believe there are more than software problems with the HR20. Personally, I have had a very positive experience with the new release, and I record many shows and use the system a lot. Now, I only had mine installed last month. If it was strictly software, shouldn't we all be experiencing the same problems with the same frequency? Can a pattern be found by finding out the manufacture date on the units that are working well and those that have persistent problems? What information can be gleaned from the serial numbers on the units?

Just a thought.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> This release has been similar to 10B for me. (Started out solid, and has gotten progressively worse)
> 
> I wish we could all stop arguing about whether or not there are "real" problems with this box.
> 
> ...


\With all due respect, negative reviews of the HR20 (and there are more of those than positive ones) in the media and stories reporting the problems Directv is having with the HR20 certainly will help push them even harder in getting it fixed (since we already agree that it is broken in the overall sense of broken vs. not broken).

I'm not just saying that because of my situation. I as a consumer would rather have news outlets reporting on the problems than not. Take the latest flap over the Directivos failing. If that had never made it to the mainstream media, it might have taken much longer to fix. Like it or not, the media in many cases give consumers a voice they might otherwise not have. I believe that's a good thing, whatever the downside to today's print/broadcast media might be.

That doesn't mean Directv isn't busting its collective butts trying to get this thing fixed. They apparently are. But after six months, and mounting evidence that new downloads haven't seemed to make it all better (and in some cases, worse), you do have to wonder if it's really more about skills/knowledge/competence, and less about effort. That's my main gripe with Directv. They may be devoting a lot of energy and resources to fixing the HR20, but maybe they need to figure out an alternative because they just can't seem to even get close to a final solution. Obviously, if I am wrong (which wouldn't bother me, truthfully) and the HR20 is a respectable DVR for everyone in 1-2 mos., then great. If not, how long is the same process going to repeat itself before people finally do start leaving D*? People really won't have a choice as alternatives start to come to the surface. Just today, Comcast announced a new HD strategy/technolgy that will boost their offerings. I know, it's Comcast. But, it may be something worth looking into if the HR20 is still unstable 4-5 months down the road.

Just my opinion, but I think the more pressure on Directv, the better, no matter who is applying the pressure. This isn't any mom and pop operation. They are a major player in the battle for TV viewers, so don't shed any tears for them if they are put under the hot lights for not getting this launch done right in the first place.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

Better than 10b-not too many problems yet (1 week and couting). Memroy leak could be tehre-time will tell. System is basically work.

Joel


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

islesfan said:


> I agree that they are working hard on it, but if you call D* for tech support, this is *not *the impression they give. I have been treated on numerous occastions like I am the only person out there with my particular problem (BSOD, IKD, CIR, you name it. Yes, believe it or not, according to a D* tech rep, I must have gotten a weird box, because my HR20 is the *only one out there where you cannot edit the Channels I Receive*. No kidding.)
> 
> The programmers may be working hard, but the CIR's are in complete cover up mode, and as a result, many of us are beyond disgusted in their "service."


Well, there's your problem, you're actually calling clueless CSRs.  Seriously, don't waste your time unless you truely need something they can actually help with (like programming issue or receiver replacement). You'll get much better help here and the people that actually matter at DirecTV that can actually fix issues will see your posting. Calling a CSR is like calling a black hole. I'd be frustrated as well being on hold trying to report a problem but I don't bother since I know it's not going to do any good. Thus I keep my stress level down. 

Anyway...


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Galactus said:


> I believe there are more than software problems with the HR20. Personally, I have had a very positive experience with the new release, and I record many shows and use the system a lot. Now, I only had mine installed last month. If it was strictly software, shouldn't we all be experiencing the same problems with the same frequency? Can a pattern be found by finding out the manufacture date on the units that are working well and those that have persistent problems? What information can be gleaned from the serial numbers on the units?
> 
> Just a thought.


Galactus,

Some good thinking and you are very correct that _some_ software defects would be experienced by all users. In earlier releases, there was a defect in setting up Manual Recurring Recordings that affected all users who tried it, a pure, clean reproducible defect.

But, inside the HR20 (and all DVRs) are many tasks happening, most happening at the same time, trying to deal with the variables: installation, programming, usage, weather, etc. So, while the software is identical, which parts of the software get executed when is not identical. When some users have problems and others do not, aside from being a real PITA to find and solve, the indication is that the software is not able to handle the variances in timing. (Classical programming problem called race conditions: two or more events "race" each other. If one event happens first everything is fine. If the other does, things might break.)

The software, while the least variable of all the items in the HR20, must be the most robust to handle all the other variable conditions. (And while the least variable, it also is the thing D* has the most control over.)

Hope this helps,
Tom


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

tstarn said:


> \With all due respect, negative reviews of the HR20 (and there are more of those than positive ones) in the media and stories reporting the problems Directv is having with the HR20 certainly will help push them even harder in getting it fixed (since we already agree that it is broken in the overall sense of broken vs. not broken).
> 
> I'm not just saying that because of my situation. I as a consumer would rather have news outlets reporting on the problems than not. Take the latest flap over the Directivos failing. If that had never made it to the mainstream media, it might have taken much longer to fix. Like it or not, the media in many cases give consumers a voice they might otherwise not have. I believe that's a good thing, whatever the downside to today's print/broadcast media might be.
> 
> ...


I am sorry if I sidetracked this thread - Earl/Chris is there a way to create a thread off my original comment?

I think this conversation is worthwhile, if everyone can stay on the high road.


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## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

For those that have suggested reformating...does that mean choosing reset from the menu screen?

If so, is there any harm other than wiping out my recorded shows? Just curious, as my hard drive is probably as clean as it will ever be right now and want to know if any think that may help?

I am also starting to think I may have a shotty LNB somewhere or a hardware issue with the HR20....I just get too many MPEG 4 related RBR....and my signal strentgh is in the 90's on most for the 99 and 103...

However, then again, its worse since 11xb....so my thinking has always been there is an issue w/ the code in the way in interprets the MPEG4, but I have no clue (nor does anyone else).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Think about this. Our receivers take in GHz signals. A resistor or capacitor spec'ed at 1% may seem pretty good, but what does that do if your unit is at the far end of the tolerance band.


Component tolerances should have been taken care of in the hardware design stage. The component that deals with the high frequency stuff is the LNB. The receivers see frequencies well under what's being satcast.

Quite a bit of this is in the digital domain. Marginal components shouldn't have as much of an unpredictable impact on the system.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cookpr said:


> For those that have suggested reformating...does that mean choosing reset from the menu screen?


I would go through the menu screen and use the "everything" option. This clears more than just what's on the drive.
The "downside" is this brings the unit back to "out of the box" condition, so I will have the current software, but nothing else & will have to go through the setup guide [add your zip code etc].
Doing a front panel reformat "only" clears the disk.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tstarn said:


> Take the latest flap over the Directivos failing.


And the quick answer was quite similar to something that we might expect from Micro$oft: there is no boggle... reboot and all will be joy-joy.

If there were really a problem, they would have issued an update, right?

It would appear that some of the problems with other receivers may be a result of changes to the guide data to try to fix the HR20.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

harsh said:


> Component tolerances should have been taken care of in the hardware design stage. The component that deals with the high frequency stuff is the LNB. The receivers see frequencies well under what's being satcast.
> 
> Quite a bit of this is in the digital domain. Marginal components shouldn't have as much of an unpredictable impact on the system.


Harsh,

Timing issues are not just digital nor analog. For instance: as you now doubt know, when a tuner changes channels to a wholly different satellite/polarity/transponder combination, an analog voltage change is made to the dish/multiswitch, an LNB might get energized, and a polarity selected. Differences in resisters and capacitors will affect how quickly that sequence occurs. If the software does not properly handle those differences every single time, then there is a "Race condition" where things have to happen just right.

In my example, I was talking about how minor but very acceptable differences between HR20s can present problems like we're seeing: some users have them, some don't. But there are other differences: temperature of the switches, line lengths, LNB temperatures, number of splices, moisture content inside the connectors, etc. Yes, everything should be over engineered to accommodate all these variables--including the software...

Cheers,
Tom


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

harsh said:


> And the quick answer was quite similar to something that we might expect from Micro$oft: there is no boggle... reboot and all will be joy-joy.
> 
> If there were really a problem, they would have issued an update, right?
> 
> It would appear that some of the problems with other receivers may be a result of changes to the guide data to try to fix the HR20.


Excellent point, Harsh. My only reason for mentioning it was that at least the "public" airing of the mess possibly hastened a resolution (that and the fact that there are still 2 million Directiv users out there, including my family), whatever the technical reason.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

harsh said:


> It would appear that some of the problems with other receivers may be a result of changes to the guide data to try to fix the HR20.


I'm willing to say that guide data was a factor in HR20 problems as well as DTivo problems, but where is your evidence to support your claim that the guide data changes were an attempt to fix the HR20?

I believe the opposite, that at least some of the black screen bugs and failed recordings on the HR20 were the result of the same guide data problems that the Tivo experienced.


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## Galactus (Jan 13, 2007)

tibber said:


> Galactus,
> 
> Some good thinking and you are very correct that _some_ software defects would be experienced by all users. In earlier releases, there was a defect in setting up Manual Recurring Recordings that affected all users who tried it, a pure, clean reproducible defect.
> 
> ...


That's my point. I see too much 'this happened to me', or 'that happened to me', but not enough 'Why?'. Maybe the big solution solver for D* would be some sort of system log reports. Or, maybe they know what's causing the problems and are close to solving them.

I'm just shocked by the level of unknown and mystery involved here.


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## Cobra (Aug 9, 2006)

I had another bsod last night, 3rd one, never had this happen in previous updates


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

tibber said:


> But, inside the HR20 (and all DVRs) are many tasks happening, most happening at the same time, trying to deal with the variables: installation, programming, usage, weather, etc. So, while the software is identical, which parts of the software get executed when is not identical. When some users have problems and others do not, aside from being a real PITA to find and solve, the indication is that the software is not able to handle the variances in timing. (Classical programming problem called race conditions: two or more events "race" each other. If one event happens first everything is fine. If the other does, things might break.)
> 
> The software, while the least variable of all the items in the HR20, must be the most robust to handle all the other variable conditions. (And while the least variable, it also is the thing D* has the most control over.)
> 
> ...


I agree. And when any organization makes the decision to jump into this market and produce their own DVR they had better make sure they have the management, staff and procedures in place to insure success. To me at least, it's obvious that with the R15 and now the HR20, DTV wasn't up to the task in the beginning. That may be changing but the only way to see that change is through an update for the R15 and HR20 that doesn't create as many problems as it fixes.

There are comments on both the R15 and HR20 side that some individuals, that never had problems before, now end up experiencing well known problems with the latest update to both machines. How does DTV spell "regression testing"?


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

banningview said:


> dost thou doubters the sincerity of some...


I would have to say I feel all posts are sincere, I just think some are loyal to their income and some to their expense.

I would have to guess that with out a doubt D*tv reads the post and i would guess they would be happy to pay those to post on the site. I am not saying that every I have no problems post is fake, I just believe it is possible.

I agree that D*tv has programmers working on "working out the bugs" I just hope that they are fully vested in the HR20 and are not a house divided as the program department is working on the next big thing at the moment. I feel that every single resource at D*TV needs to be working to make this right.



Detroit said:


> That said - I like to be a Realist about this whole situation. D*'s legal department would NEVER allow a CSR to say something to the effect, "Yeah we know the HR20 is plagued with problems, but we are working on it."


Sorry dude but ya they do, I 2nd that statement. I was told we know it is having problems and we are doing our best to fix it. Please stay with us and keep your D*TV service.

As for JayW's two camps theory the there really is a middle of the road, Camp 3.

The middle of the road camp are those who posted POS or POC comments months ago and over time have calmed down and are waiting for the happy day that all is well. I know the more of Earl's posts I read. the more beta's I try I now feel like I am trying to be part of the solution. Which I think is all three camps goal. . I am certainly glad we have Tom posting for us and keeping D*TV honest as well as this forum.

Jay, hopefully this box will be working before the LIONS draft Brady Quinn, I know it may seem that only Jesus could rescue the Lions franchise but I think Brady may put some happy butts in the seats in Detroit.

It seems in all forms of life we mellow with age.

Colts vs Bears, hopefully the best Super Bowl in 20 years!

GO COLTS!


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> I understand your point, and feel your pain. (And if I wasn't so sure D* was trying to right the ship, I would be much more likely to cause a stir over your point.) But D*'s CSR problems are a completely different matter. You are lucky enough to have found this forum, so you really shouldn't need to contact their CSRs for HR20 specific problems, and I would bet 100 bucks that your complaints are going to be heard by D* more here on this board than by calling a CSR.
> 
> That said - I like to be a Realist about this whole situation. D*'s legal department would NEVER allow a CSR to say something to the effect, "Yeah we know the HR20 is plagued with problems, but we are working on it." In a litagation happy country, companies just can't afford to make those kinds of statements. Instead they have to fix these kinds of problems under the radar with the participation of sites like this. And even then- not admit to there being a problem - only to admit they are always trying to improve their products and services.


I gave up on calling, except recently to fix a billing error. Nevertheless, looking at it from a liability standpoint, there should be a balance. Certainly, CSR's saying, "I know how you feel, this is a box of rocks, and we knew it all along when we tricked you into beta testing for us," would be an invitation to a lawsuit. But, on the other hand, "Wow, there is nothing wrong out there, it must be your box. Lets try a reset, OK, how about a format. Ok, we'll ship you a new one, oh, you have already had four replacements? Huh, oh well, what are the odds there will be five bad boxes out there? Hehehe," is a way to frustrate your customers into seeking a class action suit as well.

How about a, "OK, I know that bug, we've had that one under the scope since 10b, but we are really hoping to have it nailed down in the next release, sometime this month. Thank you for your input. I will pass a note along to the programmers (even if they don't)," would be a much better way to deal with customers. Just remember, most HR20 owners have no idea this site exists. They just think they managed to get the only 4 defective HR20's out there (or that D* is really going downhill, and that offer from the local cable co. is looking better...)


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## Tom M (Jan 4, 2007)

tibber said:


> The software, while the least variable of all the items in the HR20, must be the most robust to handle all the other variable conditions. (And while the least variable, it also is the thing D* has the most control over.)
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Tom


As a former engineer, director and vp of IPG development I can tell you that it's not rocket science to develop a good product. It does, however, take a commitment to do so by not only the engineering staff but by the sales and marketing group as well as upper management. This includes the management of not only the development company but the service provider as well.

While I never allowed product to ship/deploy before it was fully tested and working to specifications there were times when service providers would place pressure to do so. When that happened we disabled the features that weren't working properly. Sadly, that isn't what's happening with the HR20.

My gut feel for this is that it's strictly a revenue issue and the D* released this before the software was ready in order to meet financial goals. They're likely losing less revenue with all the hiccups than if they hadn't released a buggy product.

The fact of the matter is that a company can normally only put out 2 or maybe 3 solid releases per year with a decent sized staff. To do more than that means multiple teams working in parallel and probably on different branches of the code. That would explain why some bugs go away and then come back only to need to be exterminated again. Running multiple development staff for the box o/s, middleware and application can also add to the mix of problems as everybody winds up trying to hit moving targets.

In the case of the HR20 things will eventually get sorted out but it's unclear how long it's going to take and the longer it takes the more D* will have to give concessions meaning they're going to lose even more revenue over the fiasco. The bean counters always make things look good on paper. The problem is that they don't have a clue about what it really takes to get the job done and so everybody runs with the best and optimal guess as to how things will go. They don't look at reality as upper management rarely wants to hear the truth as to how long it will really take. They're only interested in how long it will take to get the the initial release point.


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## Dukie (Feb 7, 2006)

Yes, 11b has been the worst update yet for my HR20!

4 critical crashes. I'm now calling DTV every single time to make sure everything is noted on my record.

I thought 10b was bad...I long for that stability


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## oldschoolecw (Jan 25, 2007)

They should hire Apple's, Steve Jobs for the programming and the problem would be over.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

lamontcranston said:


> I'm willing to say that guide data was a factor in HR20 problems as well as DTivo problems, but where is your evidence to support your claim that the guide data changes were an attempt to fix the HR20?


I have no direct evidence. I am making am assumption that they were attacking the problems of the receiver that has them and the one that was otherwise working was caught in the blast wave.

I will certainly allow that they may have been trying to fix something with the DirecTiVo receivers, but I kinda doubt it. I was under the impression that everything was pretty much fine until the guide change and now, apparently without a change to the firmware, it is back to being fine.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

islesfan said:


> I gave up on calling, except recently to fix a billing error. Nevertheless, looking at it from a liability standpoint, there should be a balance. Certainly, CSR's saying, "I know how you feel, this is a box of rocks, and we knew it all along when we tricked you into beta testing for us," would be an invitation to a lawsuit. But, on the other hand, "Wow, there is nothing wrong out there, it must be your box. Lets try a reset, OK, how about a format. Ok, we'll ship you a new one, oh, you have already had four replacements? Huh, oh well, what are the odds there will be five bad boxes out there? Hehehe," is a way to frustrate your customers into seeking a class action suit as well.
> 
> How about a, "OK, I know that bug, we've had that one under the scope since 10b, but we are really hoping to have it nailed down in the next release, sometime this month. Thank you for your input. I will pass a note along to the programmers (even if they don't)," would be a much better way to deal with customers. Just remember, most HR20 owners have no idea this site exists. They just think they managed to get the only 4 defective HR20's out there (or that D* is really going downhill, and that offer from the local cable co. is looking better...)


Ask yourself a few questions:
1. What is the pay scale for 1st line support?
2. What is the budget for the calling center?
3. What are the chances the people writing the code for the HR20 is going to send a rep to the umpteen (okay what is it 3?) call centers D* has on a weekly basis to update them on the current status of the HR20 code?

Is that a problem? Perhaps. But approaching it from that perspective might help alleviate some of your frustration. Even if D* has the best intentions in the world, the logistics of keeping that many CSRs knowledgeable about week to week progress are potentially expensive, and challenging. (Not saying it shouldn't be attempted - just saying that is the way it is.)


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

oldschoolecw said:


> They should hire Apple's, Steve Jobs for the programming and the problem would be over.


Given the spate of low level troubles that Apple has had with their Machintosh line lately, I'm not sure that would be a wise choice.

I'm also dubious that Jobs has had much, if any modern software programming experience. He made a career change from 8 bit hobbyist to Apple Evangelist around 30 years ago. The other Steve may be a better choice.


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## Ready Kilowatt (Jan 4, 2007)

I posted on the 0x11b issues thread before it was condensed.

I have 2 units side by side and experience very different results with each, and so far I can’t say this is the worst update as the problems I have seen are so random.

My wife’s unit failed to record 3 shows in a row on 83 NBCW. She was *livid* and she is already hating this new box. Daily she complains about the interface and asks for her TiVo back. I fully believe it it wasn’t actually mounted under the TV I would have found it in the pool the next morning.

And hers is the new unit while mine is the refurbished unit… 

I had a ton of BSOD shows on mine with 0x10b and 0x115, while my wife’s ran fine, but all that time her record light didn’t work.

There are also a ton of other little glitches and errors that pop up. The biggest concerns for us right now are 

A: will it record the show we want
B: will the shows it recorded work

So far we are at 90% - which for a device like this is completely unacceptable. But we will hang on, keep trying the updates and see.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jaywdetroit said:


> 3. What are the chances the people writing the code for the HR20 is going to send a rep to the umpteen (okay what is it 3?) call centers D* has on a weekly basis to update them on the current status of the HR20 code?


That's the beauty of a properly working knowledge base or wiki. As soon as you find something new, you can immediately revise the information and all of the script readers have up-to-date solutions/workarounds/excuses to relay.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

harsh said:


> Given the spate of low level troubles that Apple has had with their Machintosh line lately, I'm not sure that would be a wise choice.
> 
> I'm also dubious that Jobs has had much, if any modern software programming experience. He made a career change from 8 bit hobbyist to Apple Evangelist around 30 years ago. The other Steve may be a better choice.


Yeah, I'd definitely trust Woz much more on anything technical.


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

11b has been the best update yet for my HR20. Seems like most of the problems I have now are with Prime Time shows in MPEG4. Not many problems with most other programs. Only shows like 24, Heroes, Gray's Anatomy. Maybe some others I can't think of right now. Don't know what it is with Prime time shows. I get audio drop outs and pixelation on those shows during play back. 

For my HR20 this seems to point to problems with the way the signal is sent and that the HR20 can't decode it properly. Sometimes it seems that the HR20 takes the poorly decoded HD data and lets it become control signals that screw up the programing of the unit. Almost like a virus in a computer. This may be why we don't see the same problems with all HR20's at the same time. Signal quality need to be improved and if it can't then the HR20 software needs be hardened against any missinterperted data from the Sat signals.

All the above is just a guess from my programing experience in the past. Couldn't tell you if I am right at this point.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

The 0x11b update has been very good for me here under very heavy usage.

I hope D* can resolve the issues for the ones who are still having serious issues.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

brittonx said:


> The 0x11b update has been very good for me here under very heavy usage.
> 
> I hope D* can resolve the issues for the ones who are still having serious issues.


Without causing those who aren't to start having them


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## JMCecil (Jan 20, 2007)

I've only owned the HR20 since Saturday. I did the forced update to 11b that night. So one entire week is the sum total of my experience with it. 

So far I've had to RBR it about 10 times (every single morning this last week when I get up so my wife can watch Robin and Company or I will die a horrible flaming death for fixing a setup that wasn't broke).

I've not missed any recordings that I know of. 

I have had numerous lock-ups where the small picture above the guide is visible but the guide is not and the unit will not respond to key presses.

I had one case of terrible audio sync that was fixed by changing the channel and then restarting the recording.

I've had the black screen with audio working when trying to playback a recording.

I only have 6 shows in todo so it isn't very busy.

I don't have a lot of experience with DVRs (one entire week) but if I was a hard core TV watcher I'd be tempted to throw it out. However, having the few things I want recorded like PTI that is on before I get home from work is really cool. That has worked every time so far. But, the lockups and black screens are really annoying.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bret4 said:


> 11b has been the best update yet for my HR20. Seems like most of the problems I have now are with Prime Time shows in MPEG4. Not many problems with most other programs. Only shows like 24, Heroes, Gray's Anatomy. Maybe some others I can't think of right now. Don't know what it is with Prime time shows. I get audio drop outs and pixelation on those shows during play back.
> 
> For my HR20 this seems to point to problems with the way the signal is sent and that the HR20 can't decode it properly. Sometimes it seems that the HR20 takes the poorly decoded HD data and lets it become control signals that screw up the programing of the unit. Almost like a virus in a computer. This may be why we don't see the same problems with all HR20's at the same time. Signal quality need to be improved and if it can't then the HR20 software needs be hardened against any missinterperted data from the Sat signals.
> 
> All the above is just a guess from my programing experience in the past. Couldn't tell you if I am right at this point.


We have exactly the same annoying issues. MPEG4, prime time shows. Video (pixelation)/audio dropouts. For the audio, the sounds dropouts are 7-8 at a time in a pattern. (Note: If you back up the live feed 10 secs or so and hit play, they do go away, but it's still a pain).


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

harsh said:


> Component tolerances should have been taken care of in the hardware design stage. The component that deals with the high frequency stuff is the LNB. The receivers see frequencies well under what's being satcast.
> 
> Quite a bit of this is in the digital domain. Marginal components shouldn't have as much of an unpredictable impact on the system.


SHOULD have. But that's not always the case...

We used to have a machine made by Xerox - a high end high speed printer... commercial style. At any rate, we had a problem crop up all of a sudden and it was the same part failing several times a week (after years of not having failed, ever).

We found out later that Xerox had spec'd a certain bearing to be used in this part that was failing. The company manufacturing the part had easier access to a bearing which was a little "beefier" and chose to use that instead - above spec. When Xerox changed manufacturers, the new manufacturer began using the spec'd bearing - which, as it turns out, was not beefy enough.

I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's certainly a possibility. If within the design stage they had specifications and parameters set up and everything worked within those parameters, then at the production phase, the manufacturer chose to make a change to some component which was still within spec but saved a buck or two, you could see a situation where within spec isn't actually good enough.

That said, I agree with you that in a situation like this, marginal components shouldn't have this great an effect. If the software was more robust to handle the variances, then they wouldn't be a problem...


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

oldschoolecw said:


> They should hire Apple's, Steve Jobs for the programming and the problem would be over.


 Or go back to Bill Gates' MS Ultimate TV. :grin:


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## WolfClan Dan (Jan 10, 2007)

My two cents:

I had several problems with the HR20. With 11b, so far (knock on wood), it has been rock solid.


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

I have had the HR20 since OFAC, since then each subsequent release has been a slight improvement. 10b eliminated most all lockup issues and 119 added more speed into the guides etc. 11b has been similar to 119 for the most part but I still have had issues which I believe if I received the box today would still sufficiently tick me off after converting from my old Tivo box. Having said that, I am much happier in comparison to the experience when I first got this thing and I am happy to know that updates are frequently released. As long as the updates keep coming and it gets better I will be ok, but D* is far from done in making this thing a true tivo replacement imho.


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## oenophile (Dec 1, 2006)

After reading this thread (and after having read a bunch of others over the past few weeks), some questions come to mind:

Has anybody figured out (or tried to figure out) what the boxes that "work" have in common; and what the boxes that "don't work" have in common? Are there similar connections (ex: HDMI to Sony TV's doesn't work; HDMI to Panasonic works; or perhaps component works really well on everything but Pioneer....etc. etc.)? I would assume that D* has a database of complaints and probably hopefully is keeping track of this sort of thing....

But maybe not.

Has any attempt been made here to categorize the problems? Someone (with more programming experience than I) could perhaps put up a detailed survey (using a PHP/MySQL database script or something similar) and post the results??


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

oenophile said:


> After reading this thread (and after having read a bunch of others over the past few weeks), some questions come to mind:
> Has anybody figured out (or tried to figure out) what the boxes that "work" have in common; and what the boxes that "don't work" have in common? Are there similar connections (ex: HDMI to Sony TV's doesn't work; HDMI to Panasonic works; or perhaps component works really well on everything but Pioneer....etc. etc.)? I would assume that D* has a database of complaints and probably hopefully is keeping track of this sort of thing....
> But maybe not.
> Has any attempt been made here to categorize the problems? Someone (with more programming experience than I) could perhaps put up a detailed survey (using a PHP/MySQL database script or something similar) and post the results??


Please don't take this the wrong way, but yes that's what almost everybody is doing here & no I'm starting to doubt that anybody at D* is reading, compiling, or analyzing it. :bang


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm starting to doubt that anybody at D* is reading, compiling, or analyzing it. :bang


I actually think they do.(Sorry, oldschool) With the updates, you have to realize they are trying, first and foremost, to make it stable. Earl has posted that everywhere I can think of... They do throw in some little things here and there, like OTA changes that, I believe, are read from here and maybe other sites. (I like to think that this is the best, and only site for HR20 news!!!) Also, there have been a few RC's that didn't go national because of this site. Someone's watching... IMHO. Keep the faith!


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Here's my 11B experience:

- BSOD
- numerous audio/video dropouts on playback, both of mpeg4 locals and SD nationals
- Caller ID works fine through HDMI, but not S-video (which shows an onscreen message that I don't have caller ID)

With 11B and all previous versions, HDMI only works to my TV if I'm displaying an HD channel. Perhaps that's the way it works for everyone? Not sure. I expected SD channels also would display through HDMI since they are delivered via satellite in a digital format.

But, my point is, I do not see audio/video dropouts when displaying non HD content via S-video, only when displaying HD content (mpeg2 or 4) via HDMI.

Perhaps the reason some people report few problems while others report loads of issues is due to which connection they output signal from the HR20 to their sets?


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

I had mentioned a few days ago about the possibility of the Video processor being 'bogged down' by the other processes going on within the system. I would guess that the VP is the last item the signal passes thru as it heads to the TV ( I guess HDMI codes audio as well but that would be handled separate, right?). You stack on stuff like recordings and channel changes and DD and MENU commands and you've got a bunch of processes going on. If one of them is causing a memory leak, it could slow the whole system down to a crawl or even a freeze. We tried to get a poll about who uses HDMI vs. component and the findings were inconclusive as to who had trouble most. It happened both ways.


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## DJConan (Sep 14, 2006)

Both of mine have been consistantly bad from the start. Some problems have disappeared, some new problems have appeared and I've just been waiting the problems out. 

I have to say though, the audio drop outs is the worst problem for me so far. They are a new problem since the last two releases and the latest has gotten unusually bad. 

When it doesn't record programs, well, I'm not happy, but when I think it recorded a program and when I go to watch it, the audio drops out every 10-15 seconds for an entire 2 hour program, it really, well...#@)( #$()# me off!  Try watching American Idol during their bad try out shows and with the audio dropping out every 10 seconds, you're not able tell if the singer is bad or if it's your HR20 that's bad. lol

I just got a refurbished box to replace one that completely stopped working. Activated it tonight, so I'll see if I get different results from the other two boxes after I get some programming set back up.


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## Dave_S (Jan 7, 2006)

0x119 was the worst for me. The worst thing about 0x119 was the spontaneous reboots, which of course would happen when something was recording. Now with 0x11B two out of my three units have been flawless so far. I plan on reformatting the troubled box, which has had issues under other versions as well.


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

tstarn said:


> We have exactly the same annoying issues. MPEG4, prime time shows. Video (pixelation)/audio dropouts. For the audio, the sounds dropouts are 7-8 at a time in a pattern. (Note: If you back up the live feed 10 secs or so and hit play, they do go away, but it's still a pain).


I should have mentioned that too. I have noticed when backing up and replaying the section with the problem it is better most of the time.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

dhaakenson said:


> With 11B and all previous versions, HDMI only works to my TV if I'm displaying an HD channel. Perhaps that's the way it works for everyone? Not sure. I expected SD channels also would display through HDMI since they are delivered via satellite in a digital format.


Some HDTV's do not accept 480i material via HDMI, so you would experience this if your HR20 had native set on (or you were switching to 480i manually) and yours is one of these TVs.

Turn native off and de-select 480i from your allowed resolutions, and you should be OK.


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## kram (Sep 3, 2006)

I had no problems until 0x11b. In addition to problems I previously reported, last night I had my first BSD when turning on the HR20. I was able to access the guide, and scrolling up and down seemed to fix the problem.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

NYSmoker said:


> Fair enough, but why do the same 2 or 3 people feel the need to pop into every thread like this. If the people with problems are the minority, shouldn't there be a plethora of people who can make these comments? Maybe the line we are being fed about this minority is not in fact true. Maybe the people with problems are the majority! I for one have not had any problems since my Saturday update and reboot, however, I am not posting in favor of this update or not until I can go 2 weeks or so and see what happens. That seems to be the magic number 10-12 days from reboot it works fine after that it all goes to hell.
> 
> I also didn't mean you used Apple personally, I just read the Digg story about the HR20 and saw your post there. I was just referring to what could be called blind loyality to a company that exists only to make money.


To be honest I think many people who don't have problems with their equipment or aren't internet junkies (such as myself) probably never bother to find forums such as this one. Whenever I think about buying something new I try and find forums for people who have the product and look at the positive and negative of it. I do it for my small electronics ($100 or less) and I did the same thing before I bought my Nissan 350Z last year. When I started looking for my 350Z I saw many many people having this problem or that problem and then some that had zero issues. I have now had my car almost a full year and love it as much as the day I picked it up. To this day I have had 1 issue and that was a rear hatch strut that started making an odd noise.

Now as for my HR20 I haven't had it as long as some here I got it back at the end of Dec, I did the RC update and all. I have been setting up more and more of my SL's that I have on my R15 on the HR20 and the only reboots I have done so far where done for the purpose of trying to get the networking features done. Every show I have recorded so far has been perfect no audio drops, no missed recordings. I have seen a couple of quick glitches here and there when doing things but they cleared themselves up in seconds and I went about my business. As with my R15 I count myself very lucky that I have less issues then others. This still doesn't discount the issues that others have.

I guess my long winded point to this story is you will by what I have seen as nature in my internet journies see far less people praising a product then you will see people who have had issues.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

11b getting worse! Came home last night to find all MP2 stations not working (black screen) AGAIN! Had to reset to get MP2 back AGAIN! Then I tried to watch Supernatural from Thursday, unwatchable! Fortunately, trusty TiVo had it. If not for TiVo, I would have missed so much this season. Please, D* come up with a new release! Even if you just re-name 10b and give it back to us!


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> To be honest I think many people who don't have problems with their equipment or aren't internet junkies (such as myself) probably never bother to find forums such as this one. Whenever I think about buying something new I try and find forums for people who have the product and look at the positive and negative of it. I do it for my small electronics ($100 or less) and I did the same thing before I bought my Nissan 350Z last year. When I started looking for my 350Z I saw many many people having this problem or that problem and then some that had zero issues. I have now had my car almost a full year and love it as much as the day I picked it up. To this day I have had 1 issue and that was a rear hatch strut that started making an odd noise.
> 
> Now as for my HR20 I haven't had it as long as some here I got it back at the end of Dec, I did the RC update and all. I have been setting up more and more of my SL's that I have on my R15 on the HR20 and the only reboots I have done so far where done for the purpose of trying to get the networking features done. Every show I have recorded so far has been perfect no audio drops, no missed recordings. I have seen a couple of quick glitches here and there when doing things but they cleared themselves up in seconds and I went about my business. As with my R15 I count myself very lucky that I have less issues then others. This still doesn't discount the issues that others have.
> 
> I guess my long winded point to this story is you will by what I have seen as nature in my internet journies see far less people praising a product then you will see people who have had issues.


While this is off topic (0X11b worst yet?), the idea that on the Internet (and anywhere else), there are far more people who have had negative "issues" posting comments than those who are happily using their new stuff is really myth, not reality.

Clint, do you consider CNET a reliable place to gauge this theory, a theory that has been mentioned more than once on this forum about the HR20? How about the feedback pages at Circuit City? Both of them are Internet sites, and both provide the opportunity to either damn or praise products for consumers. You'll find the same holds true for Amazon, or any other online retail site that allows buyers to post feedback. There will be negatives, positives and neutrals, and the results are based on real world, end user experience.

If you don't like the retail sites, I am sure there are plenty of forums where people praise their new stuff, and the praise is overwhelmingly positive, not negative. If you had come to DBSTalk on your research to buy a new DVR, would this division of opinions made you hesitate? Apparently not. I guess we're different. If the reviews on CNET, Circuit City and elsewhere on the HR20 existed back in early September, I would have waited because the preponderance of evidence now shows that you are just as likely to get a bad box as you are a good one.

Anyway, here is the evidence that this theory (the "isssue" people complaining online far outnumber the "happy" people) has little basis in reality.

I went to both sites, and chose products that were highly rated by both the sites themselves and the users. I also used several different product categories to make this point.

CNET
Canon EOS 30D with 18mm-to-55mm lens (average 8.3 out of 10 score from buyers/users, excellent)
http://reviews.cnet.com/Canon_EOS_30D_with_18mm_to_55mm_lens/4852-6501_7-31755772.html?tag=sub

Sony MFM-HT205 (9.2 out of 10 by users, excellent)
http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_MFM_HT205/4852-6482_7-31813569.html?tag=sub

Etymotic ER6i headphones (7.5 out of 10, very good)
http://reviews.cnet.com/Etymotic_ER_6i_Isolator_white/4505-6468_7-31077372.html

Toshiba Gigabeat S MES30VW (7.8 out of 10, very good)
http://reviews.cnet.com/Toshiba_Gigabeat_S_MES30VW_30GB_white/4852-6499_7-31660763.html?tag=uolst

Circuit City
Panasonic 50" Plasma HDTV (TH-50PX60U), 248 customers rated it higher than 4.0 out of 5 (with most scores closer to 5 than 4).
http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/prod...in marquee-_-Up to 10% off TVs-_-Panasonic 50

I think the point is made. If a product works well and delivers what it promises (or more), then there will be no shortage of people willing to tell others about their positive experience. And the scores, of course, will skew high, even though there will always be people who feel otherwise.

Same holds true for word of mouth. I don't know about you, but when I buy a product that works as advertised or better, I definitely spread the word among friends and family so they can get the same great results if they are in the market for that type of product. It's called viral marketing, and it has always been a proven way to win in the marketplace.

So those two sites show that it's simply untrue that the majority of people who post opinions about products online are the ones having issues, while the rest of the people are out there quietly enjoying their new stuff. No, people love to tell others when their new purchases work as advertised, or beyond. Everyone loves to be connected to a winner, and I understand why.

And as an interesting comparison, the HR20 didn't crack a single 4 out of 5 score on the Circuit City ratings, with 132 people reporting so far (and one score, for cost-benefit rating, was below a 3 on average). And that was the good news for the HR20. On CNET, the average user rating is 4.1 out of 10, with 144 users reporting.

Let's put to rest the myth that when it comes to making an opinion known online about a product, people with problems far outweigh those who are happy consumers. It's just not the case. If a product performs well, it will in fact get plenty of praise online, and if it stinks, that will be borne out by the feedback too.

If the HR20 had come out of the gates just like Directv had planned, it would have gotten similar ratings to the Canon EOS, the Sony TV and the Etymotic headphones.

And, if the HR20 had worked as advertised back in September (or even by November), there wouldn't even be a thread asking if 0x11b is the worst download yet. I just believe this is an important issue, and needed to be put to rest.

Back to the original topic.


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

We have people with next to no problems and people with all kinds of problems. I wonder how many have done a full reset with format and have problems and do not have problems? I know that the reset with format has made my HR20 much more stable. I do that after I download each time and things have been much better. I have mentioned this before but no one seems to care much about it, or they are afraid to lose their recordings that don't play back right. Seems to me that if your HR20 has all these problems it would be worth doing a reset with format. Better to try it than having to deal with so many problems.

For me 11b is the best update by far. The HR20 still has a long way to go before it is something I would tell others to buy.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bret4 said:


> We have people with next to no problems and people with all kinds of problems. I wonder how many have done a full reset with format and have problems and do not have problems? I know that the reset with format has made my HR20 much more stable. I do that after I download each time and things have been much better. I have mentioned this before but no one seems to care much about it, or they are afraid to lose their recordings that don't play back right. Seems to me that if your HR20 has all these problems it would be worth doing a reset with format. Better to try it than having to deal with so many problems.
> 
> For me 11b is the best update by far. The HR20 still has a long way to go before it is something I would tell others to buy.


So loosing all of your SLs and shows every time there's an update is Okay to you?


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bret4 said:


> We have people with next to no problems and people with all kinds of problems. I wonder how many have done a full reset with format and have problems and do not have problems? I know that the reset with format has made my HR20 much more stable. I do that after I download each time and things have been much better. I have mentioned this before but no one seems to care much about it, or they are afraid to lose their recordings that don't play back right. Seems to me that if your HR20 has all these problems it would be worth doing a reset with format. Better to try it than having to deal with so many problems.
> 
> For me 11b is the best update by far. The HR20 still has a long way to go before it is something I would tell others to buy.


I too did a reset/reformat at some point (can't even remember when) following one of the downloads, but I have 3 SLs, that's it. And I delete my recordings as soon as I watch them, since the HR20 is all mine (spouse and daugher refuse to use it, and stick with the R10).

Since that reset/reformat, my issues are restricted to sound/video dropouts and anomalies. And I agree, I would only recommend the HR20 as a "testing" DVR, not a mission critical, primary box for TV enjoyment.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

I agree with tstarn's point of view on this. The "buzz" on the HR20 has been undeniably negative.

Clint is correct that "problem-solving" forums such as this tend to have a higher proportion of people with issues -- they come to the forums looking for help, or at least company for their misery.

However, while no forums are 100% positive, not all product/service forums are highly negative. Look on AVSForums, you will find many products for which the user consensus is overwhelmingly positive. Same with retailer/review sites that were referenced by tstarn. Experienced internet users know how to interpret the "tone" of a forum, and use this in their product research. Such users would also be savvy enough to see that the tone here has been gradually becoming a bit more positive with recent software releases (even though many problems are still being reported).

I will say that I prefer discussion of real bugs/issues/problems, and how to use the product to its potential, rather than "the HR20 is a POS" or "Hey, mine works great." 

But to say that all product forums are negative, and that the HR20 has been no worse than others...no, can't buy that.

Before being labeled a "Tivo-hugger," I will state that I am now using HR20s exclusively in our home, by choice.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

You can call it a myth I have read many reviews on many retail and review sites both containing pro and negative views of products. Many of these people giving positive and negative reviews have said they don't own the product (most likely not the issue in this issue with the HR20).

To be quite honest I don't look to C-Net for much of anything as I have seen bad reviews for very good products and good reviews for very bad products (I state good and bad as personal opinion NOT fact).

There is no denying that people have issues with the HR20, on the flip side of that coin there are people who don't have as many issues and some who have no issues. Much as some people like to bring up the negatives others like to talk of the positives. This is a two way street and both sides are more then welcome. I do wish people would give a little more info from both side though as it's junk and doesn' work helps no one, just as mines great and nothing else really doesn't say much.

If you have comments about your's (not stating you in general) being bad then be constructive in the description POS tells me nothing and makes me less likely to want to read the thread. Also Mine is great and no description on how you use it or how many SL's you have what you watch and so on makes it hard to know if it's a cause of the type of use the box gets or some other such factor.

I would hope people here could help be part of the solution in making this forum a very useful place and not part of the negatives that make it a not so useful place. If you don't like what someone says good or bad, ignore them or report them.

We need to know whats good and whats bad about the DVR but we need both of those to be descriptive so that possibly trends could be established.



tstarn said:


> While this is off topic (0X11b worst yet?), the idea that on the Internet (and anywhere else), there are far more people who have had negative "issues" posting comments than those who are happily using their new stuff is really myth, not reality.
> 
> Clint, do you consider CNET a reliable place to gauge this theory, a theory that has been mentioned more than once on this forum about the HR20? How about the feedback pages at Circuit City? Both of them are Internet sites, and both provide the opportunity to either damn or praise products for consumers. You'll find the same holds true for Amazon, or any other online retail site that allows buyers to post feedback. There will be negatives, positives and neutrals, and the results are based on real world, end user experience.
> 
> ...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Clint Lamor said:


> You can call it a myth I have read many reviews on many retail and review sites both containing pro and negative views of products. Many of these people giving positive and negative reviews have said they don't own the product (most likely not the issue in this issue with the HR20).
> 
> I would hope people here could help be part of the solution in making this forum a very useful place and not part of the negatives that make it a not so useful place.


Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I would like to say something, but can only support your idea of "working the problem".
You have a great forum. POS or not.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I gotta say for myself, I have never reviewed a product unless I had a bad experience. And here I am, the "techie" guy. I'm sure it's the same with most people. They have a good experience they aren't even thinking about giving something a review. But if they have a bad experience they are looking for any avenue to rip the product a new one, thus bad reviews.

Just my perspective.

As for the original question, no, 11b is working just fine for me so far.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> You can call it a myth I have read many reviews on many retail and review sites both containing pro and negative views of products. Many of these people giving positive and negative reviews have said they don't own the product (most likely not the issue in this issue with the HR20).
> 
> To be quite honest I don't look to C-Net for much of anything as I have seen bad reviews for very good products and good reviews for very bad products (I state good and bad as personal opinion NOT fact).
> 
> ...


You can dismiss CNET if you want, but the fact remains, if a product gets consistent reviews/word of mouth from users on CNET or any other site, retail or otherwise, the odds are pretty good those views reflect something very real, one way or the other (positive or negative). In other words, a highly negative review combined with negative word of mouth is a surefire "stay away" signal when considering a new product, no?

Funny you would dismiss CNET, when their inhouse reviewer actually gave the HR20 a decent review. I agree, their reviews often don't match the user feedback in either direction (and that is the case with the HR20). But originally you did say that more people complain than not online, and I was just trying to point out that if people like a product, they will let people know about it too.

Not sure how the rest of your reply fits in. We all know that some have serious problems, some don't any, and some have a mixture. And we agree there isn't much to gain from the POS vs. mine's great blanket statements.

Again, I was just pointing out that great/good products get people to act, as do poor/lousy ones - it isn't just one group that voices its views.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I gotta say for myself, I have never reviewed a product unless I had a bad experience. And here I am, the "techie" guy. I'm sure it's the same with most people. They have a good experience they aren't even thinking about giving something a review. But if they have a bad experience they are looking for any avenue to rip the product a new one, thus bad reviews.
> 
> Just my perspective.
> 
> As for the original question, no, 11b is working just fine for me so far.


Guess you are different from all those people who go out and post positive reviews about products they buy and like. But there is no denying others find it useful to spread the good word about something they have purchased. One thing is confusing: "Why do you say "most people" are that way (only negative), when there is evidence that plenty of people rave/praise products when given a chance.


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## jfolliard (Oct 17, 2006)

islesfan said:


> 11b getting worse! Came home last night to find all MP2 stations not working (black screen) AGAIN! Had to reset to get MP2 back AGAIN! Then I tried to watch Supernatural from Thursday, unwatchable! Fortunately, trusty TiVo had it. If not for TiVo, I would have missed so much this season. Please, D* come up with a new release! Even if you just re-name 10b and give it back to us!


boy - I sure must be one of the lucky ones - Have had my HR20 for several months now and have had zero problems - I've never forced an upgrade, they just come down the line and I'm on the most current 11b now.

I live in Portland, Oregon - I'm no techie but could some of the problems be related to where you live and not the box?

Anyway, maybe I've jinxed myself, but again, I'm delighted with this product - have just ordered my second one. Directv folks have always been most helpful - of course I'm persistent but with honey not vinegar - My first HR20 was essentially free, they charged me $99 but gave me a $10 per month offset for 10 months probably because I upgraded to HD at the same time. This second unit will cost me $99 net with the additional discounts.

I suppose it helps to have a couple of sport packages (MLB and NHL) but I don't have all the premiums, just HBO.

Anyway, Directv has come out to install new stuff (dish, wiring, etc) several times over the years and they only charge $29.95 each time - I think that's great.

Just my experiences.

Jack


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> I gotta say for myself, I have never reviewed a product unless I had a bad experience. And here I am, the "techie" guy. I'm sure it's the same with most people. They have a good experience they aren't even thinking about giving something a review. But if they have a bad experience they are looking for any avenue to rip the product a new one, thus bad reviews.
> 
> Just my perspective.
> 
> As for the original question, no, 11b is working just fine for me so far.


Something to take into consideration. Looking at CNET products with high user reviews often have few reviews 10-30. So some folks do write positive reviews.

There are also many negative reviews made by folks not even owning the unit. The Series 3 Tivo for example has a 6.0 customer rating from 57 reviews. Skimming through the reviews, and looking at the low ones you can spot the trend that many negative reviews came from customers that were in fact not customers because they thought it cost too much. Even with that it maintains a 6.0 rating.

But when I see a customer rating of 4.1 with 144 reviews, to me that means real problems. Skimming through those reviews you come across pages with no review higher than a 4, plenty of 1's, some 8's & 9's (even by some names I recognize) and only two 10's. Those reviewers giving it a 10 not even bothering to write a Full User Opinion.

I don't just look at the numbers, I read the reviews and what the reviewers have to say.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Something to take into consideration. Looking at CNET products with high user reviews often have few reviews 10-30. So some folks do write positive reviews.
> 
> There are also many negative reviews made by folks not even owning the unit. The Series 3 Tivo for example has a 6.0 customer rating from 57 reviews. Skimming through the reviews, and looking at the low ones you can spot the trend that many negative reviews came from customers that were in fact not customers because they thought it cost too much. Even with that it maintains a 6.0 rating.
> 
> ...


Good point, I didn't mention the number of reviews as being relevant, but they are in connection with overall score.


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ....and yet others don't have these problems....hmmmmm...that's what's making all this so challenging.


As I and others have said to you in the past .. if your perfect HR20 that was handed down by God himself, with some perfectly working God-programmed software release that NONE of us others have, then PLEASE find another hobby! The REST of us without the God-created HR20's will be here to report ALL of the bugs and point out the futility of DirecTV's DVR project! 86,000 posts which mostly disagree with your "the HR20 is perfect thesis" and STILL counting!

(NOTE: My first inclination in reading another of your repetitive posts while MANY are STILL having serious problems was a simple reply of "Just shut up" but I found a more wordy, nice approach!)


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## biffster (Jan 27, 2007)

I suspect DirecTV and Liberty are ruing Chase Carey's (and others') decision to go into the hardware business with partner NDS. 

DirecTV executives likely were wowed and snowed by internal engineers who swore that they could build a better DVR+receiver than their own capable hardware partners. And, why not? As an RF, hardware, or software engineer at DirecTV or NDS, what better project could there be than a cool, real-time embedded application that's a TiVo killer? "Broadcom and others have the ASICs and reference designs for this kind of app", they'd say, "and we can build it no sweat, royalty-free!"

It's really a classic make vs. buy decision, one that can't made without consideration of myriad technical details that most executive committee-level employees can't make without relevant experience. They believed the engineers, and now they're in the middle of a painful, painful life cycle. 

Would TiVo and Sony/Thomson/LG/etc. have had a similar experience building the MPEG2/4 box for DirecTV? Maybe. Honestly, it's the first generation of boxes that support both codecs. And HDMI. And ATSC. And DVR functionality. It's not as simple as you'd think. 

Having said this, DirecTV haven't lost any goodwill from me personally, since I'm a relatively satifsfied HR20 owner. Others here aren't as forgiving. Will the box eventually work well for most users? I think it will. Will content, hardware and software firms study this experience and think twice about the nasty implications of an insufficiently thought-out build-vs.-buy decision? Hopefully.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

biffster said:


> I suspect DirecTV and Liberty are ruing Chase Carey's (and others') decision to go into the hardware business with partner NDS.
> 
> DirecTV executives likely were wowed and snowed by internal engineers who swore that they could build a better DVR+receiver than their own capable hardware partners. And, why not? As an RF, hardware, or software engineer at DirecTV or NDS, what better project could there be than a cool, real-time embedded application that's a TiVo killer? "Broadcom and others have the ASICs and reference designs for this kind of app", they'd say, "and we can build it no sweat, royalty-free!"
> 
> ...


Nice post. Being a critic of Directv's decision, I hope you are right on one specific issue: That they really will get it fixed ... eventually. It's that ill-defined time period that is really at the heart of the matter. And my HR20 works relatively well too, so my personal good will is also intact, but it bothers me that they made such a critical decision so cavalierly, without really considering the consequences if it didn't work. Then again, it won't be the first (or last) time a less-than-smart business decision has been made in America.


----------



## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So loosing all of your SLs and shows every time there's an update is Okay to you?


Yep, it sure is! I'd rather have a good running HR20 than put up with problems. I can always reset my SLs, and I delete most shows right after I view them. I don't think of the dvr as a replacement for a VCR or DVD recorder. To me it's just to record a show then watch it. If I don't watch it right away then it must have been something that doesn't interest me enough to keep anyway.

Hopefully we will get to the point that doing a reformat after a upgrade wouldn't be needed. (I think we are getting close now, close enough that I may just do a RBR on the next one) The point is that up until 11b, I think if you haven't done a reset with format you may want to try it if you are having a lot of problems with the HR20. Problems beyond audio dropouts and pixelation. If my HR20 locked up and had BSOD's needing RBR's often I'd format it. I don't have those problems right now. Had them before I reformated started reformatting after the upgrades.

I can't say it will work for everyone. Would be interesting to see some kind of study on this. Maybe a Poll should be done on this. I'd like to know how wrong I am if I am wrong. Can't know if people don't try it and report if their problems get better or not.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I always RBR'ed my R15 on a weekly basis and reformatted every couple of months and didn't experience the huge problems other R15 users have and do. But my DVR usage is completely different than yours. I have 2 HR10s and multiple SD Tivos all of which are 100% filled with shows (Season Passes and Suggestions). I have at least 10 SLs on each Tivo and around 30 on each of my HR10s. In addition to watching some shows as soon as they air (some while they are still airing) I also keep my own library (call it VOD if you will) so that I can watch what I want, when I want.

Weekly RBRs or monthly reformats are not acceptable to me in any DVR I use.


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## alv (Aug 13, 2002)

[QUOTE

Weekly RBRs or monthly reformats are not acceptable to me in any DVR I use.[/QUOTE]

I can't see you anyone could think that is acceptable, especially reformats. A piece of home electronics should not need babysitting.


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## RMSko (Aug 23, 2006)

For me, 11b has been by far the worst update yet.


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## teebeebee1 (Dec 11, 2006)

How do i even know if i got the update, i remember checking once but i can't recall how to look.

thanks for any info


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

NYSmoker said:


> Some people can't let these threads go without rubbing it in how good their receiver is.


The point is, they are the same receiver, with the same software. So when they have different problems, sometimes you have to look at possible causes other than the software update. Unless you just want something easy to blame and rant about.


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

RMSko said:


> For me, 11b has been by far the worst update yet.


That comment is really gonna help troubleshooting...


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Jon D said:


> That comment is really gonna help troubleshooting...


Without getting picky, would it really help if he posted the same thing others have posted multiple times in this thread?

"I've had 4 RBRs and 5 BSODs and 2 BSDs and 2 missed recordings since I got 11b."?

If some of you want detailed bug reports in order for someone to reply to a question with...



RMSko said:


> For me, 11b has been by far the worst update yet.


...perhaps those bug reports should be developed and all posters should be required to follow that format. :nono:

Jon D, exectly what additional information, other than what's already been repeated in this thread, would you suggest RMSko provide? And I mean that as a serious question.


----------



## Howie (Aug 16, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> There are also many negative reviews made by folks not even owning the unit.


I think you just described yourself perfectly.

Oh, yeah - this current release hasn't missed a beat for me. I'd say best yet.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

biffster said:


> I suspect DirecTV and Liberty are ruing Chase Carey's (and others') decision to go into the hardware business with partner NDS.
> 
> DirecTV executives likely were wowed and snowed by internal engineers who swore that they could build a better DVR+receiver than their own capable hardware partners. And, why not? As an RF, hardware, or software engineer at DirecTV or NDS, what better project could there be than a cool, real-time embedded application that's a TiVo killer? "Broadcom and others have the ASICs and reference designs for this kind of app", they'd say, "and we can build it no sweat, royalty-free!"
> 
> ...


Very strong first post.

I'd add that there were overly optimistic timeframe projections involved as well. HD locals were up and running, but no DVR was available to record them. Meanwhile, competitors indeed had HD DVRs available...so the box was deemed "good enough"and shipping began (my conjecture). I'd imagine that this could well have been over the objections of the engineers...or it could just have been massive groupthink on everyone's part there.

Between the botched HR10 software upgrade and the early performance of the HR20, D* has lost a bit of goodwill from me. But not enough for me to switch providers, and they can gain back what they've lost. Right now the HR20 is performing well enough for me...as long as it doesn't take any steps backwards with future updates, I'm OK with it. I haven't gotten to the point where I really trust it yet; only time will tell.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Howie said:


> I think you just described yourself perfectly.
> 
> Oh, yeah - this current release hasn't missed a beat for me. I'd say best yet.


*Excuse me!!!* :scratch:

I don't post reviews of units I don't own and I don't vote in polls on units I don't own. If you have some evidence to support your claim, I suggest you produce it.

I over and over repeat I do not own a HR20, it's not listed in my sig, yet I reserve my right to post to any thread in this forum. Last I checked the HR20 forum was not limited to HR20 owners....opps, lessees.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Yep. It does appear that it is the worst for some people, and the best for others (including me). Obviously I don't know which group is larger


I'm not sure I feel strong either way... 10b was incredibly stable for me, 0x115 RC - not so good, 0x119 - missed the RC window. In the first 24 hours of 11b, I had 2 smaller issues but nothing critical.

I've had 11b installed for a full week now and I haven't had any significant issues. The bottom line: I think it's too early to say it's "the best update we've received".


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## Howie (Aug 16, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> *Excuse me!!!* :scratch:
> 
> I don't post reviews of units I don't own and I don't vote in polls on units I don't own. If you have some evidence to support your claim, I suggest you produce it.
> 
> I over and over repeat I do not own a HR20, it's not listed in my sig, yet I reserve my right to post to any thread in this forum. Last I checked the HR20 forum was not limited to HR20 owners....opps, lessees.


Oh, please. Go back and read some of your posts. Most every one has negative connotations about the HR20. The only reason I posted was to remind others that your opinions haven't been formed through actual experience. And yes, you do have the right to post in any forum you please, as do I.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> Some HDTV's do not accept 480i material via HDMI, so you would experience this if your HR20 had native set on (or you were switching to 480i manually) and yours is one of these TVs.
> 
> Turn native off and de-select 480i from your allowed resolutions, and you should be OK.


:bowdown: You are a god! Many thanks for this tip. HDMI works perfectly now.

So much to learn about this stuff. Gone are the days when tin foil on the rabbit ears and a little percussive maintenance on the side of the set were all that was required...

Thanks again.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Something to take into consideration. Looking at CNET products with high user reviews often have few reviews 10-30. So some folks do write positive reviews.
> 
> There are also many negative reviews made by folks not even owning the unit. The Series 3 Tivo for example has a 6.0 customer rating from 57 reviews. Skimming through the reviews, and looking at the low ones you can spot the trend that many negative reviews came from customers that were in fact not customers because they thought it cost too much. Even with that it maintains a 6.0 rating.
> 
> ...


The problem with the CNET user rating for the HR20 is if you go through and actually read the comments some of the people there are complaining mainly because it has differences from the Tivo not because the box is bad. Just because the HR20 is not a Tivo does not make it bad.

Have you ever read "Who moved my cheese?"?


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## JMCecil (Jan 20, 2007)

brittonx said:


> The problem with the CNET user rating for the HR20 is if you go through and actually read the comments some of the people there are complaining mainly because it has differences from the Tivo not because the box is bad. Just because the HR20 is not a Tivo does not make it bad.
> 
> Have you ever read "Who moved my cheese?"?


My favorite are the user reviews for products that aren't even out yet. Or, printer comments on a camera thread. CNET is FUD central.


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

alv said:


> [QUOTE
> 
> Weekly RBRs or monthly reformats are not acceptable to me in any DVR I use.


I can't see you anyone could think that is acceptable, especially reformats. A piece of home electronics should not need babysitting.[/QUOTE]

You hit that right on the money. It's not acceptable at all. That's why this thing wasn't ready to be shipped to the people. I never had one problem with my Tivo. Never RBRed that thing and didn't even know anything about doing that to it over the year of using it. Still have a bunch of shows on it that I can watch if I want.

Point is I wouldn't trust the HR20 to keep any show the way it has been in the past. Until it gets a better software update I wouldn't think of saving any shows on it for any length of time. Being that the HR20 is a work in progress and can't really be trusted 100%, I think cleaning it out made it work better for me. Never felt it was acceptable to have to do a format and it isn't. Just think it was necessary to make my HR20 more stable.

Now the problems with my HR20 are getting so it is much more stable with 11b and it may be getting as trusted as my old Tivo soon if the updates keep going the way this last one has. Others liked 10b. That was better than fa for me but it was nowhere as good as 11b has been for me. Sure would be nice if D* would give us some idea what they think the reason is that so many have problems and others are not. You'd think they would have a clue. :nono:


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> :bowdown: You are a god! Many thanks for this tip. HDMI works perfectly now.
> 
> So much to learn about this stuff. Gone are the days when tin foil on the rabbit ears and a little percussive maintenance on the side of the set were all that was required...
> 
> Thanks again.


You still need a tin foil hat now and then with the HR20.:lol:

Now that's just a joke for those that love it more than their first born. Just a joke.:lol:


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

wakajawaka said:


> For me all the releases have been pretty much the same as I have had very little problems at all.
> 
> Come on, not one post in this thread has even come close to rubbing it in.


I am in the exact same position as you. Neither of my 2 HR20's have had any major issues. Yes, in the 4+ months I have them I have had to re-boot but only a limited number of times, I have not lost any recordings, and overall I am very satisfied.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Nice post. Being a critic of Directv's decision, I hope you are right on one specific issue: That they really will get it fixed ... eventually. It's that ill-defined time period that is really at the heart of the matter. And my HR20 works relatively well too, so my personal good will is also intact, but it bothers me that they made such a critical decision so cavalierly, without really considering the consequences if it didn't work. Then again, it won't be the first (or last) time a less-than-smart business decision has been made in America.


I seriously doubt that the decision to make or release the product when it was made and released was made without deep thought and much discussion as to what could happen if there are problems. This isn't one guy going ya put it out now, this is a very large corporation with many people making the decisions on whats to be done.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Well that clears all that up. What was the original question? :lol:


Ok this added nothing to the conversation so I am going to remove it.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Howie said:


> I think you just described yourself perfectly.
> 
> Oh, yeah - this current release hasn't missed a beat for me. I'd say best yet.


This type of comment is not acceptable. Please refrain from making comment like this.


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## Howie (Aug 16, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> This type of comment is not acceptable. Please refrain from making comment like this.


OK


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Guess you are different from all those people who go out and post positive reviews about products they buy and like. But there is no denying others find it useful to spread the good word about something they have purchased. One thing is confusing: "Why do you say "most people" are that way (only negative), when there is evidence that plenty of people rave/praise products when given a chance.


I would assume he says "most people" because that's human nature. Sure, there are some people who will go out and post positive reviews of a product, or will shout the praises of a product from the highest mountain top. But in the grand scheme of things, those people are not the norm.

The company I work for now is a small print shop thats been around 50+ years, in a small town. We have a client list in the thousands, and we run into customers all the time who need something "yesterday" because they screwed something up. Most times we're able to pull some strings in the schedule and bail them out. Most times, you won't even get a "thank you" from those people. But turn it around and something goes wrong on our end and we're a day late, and the same people will be in your front office *****ing like there's no tomorrow.

That's just the way things are. Unhappy people are WAY more likely to voice their opinions than are happy people. That doesn't mean happy people NEVER do it, as your links pointed out. Look at the DVR section of cnet though. ~150 reviews for the HR20, 40 for the 622, 57 for the S3 Tivo, 9 for the S2 DT Tivo, 100 for the 40 Hr Series 2 Tivo (a product that's been out 5 years).

So, going back to your earlier comment, responding to one of Clints posts... on these internet sites, there are obviously far more people posting their negative comments than are posting their positive comments. It's not a myth, though I wouldn't go so far as to limit it to the internet. It's just human nature. If something does what it's supposed to, no one really gets excited. If an item is better than you expected, then people are more likely to spread the word. If the item doesn't do as advertised, though, look out. The number of people willing to tell you about it goes through the roof.

And really, why wouldn't it. We expect things to do what they're supposed to. If I buy a toaster, I expect it to toast bread. If it doesn't toast bread, I'm gonna be ticked off. If it does toast bread, then nobody needs a newsflash...


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> And really, why wouldn't it. We expect things to do what they're supposed to. If I buy a toaster, I expect it to toast bread. If it doesn't toast bread, I'm gonna be ticked off. If it does toast bread, then nobody needs a newsflash...


Well said.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Howie said:


> Oh, please. Go back and read some of your posts. Most every one has negative connotations about the HR20. The only reason I posted was to remind others that your opinions haven't been formed through actual experience. And yes, you do have the right to post in any forum you please, as do I.


I am critical of the R15, HR20, DTVs release of both units and their subsequent inability to fix said units. How on earth does that equate to me doing a review of the HR20? Please clarify that for me.

I never have claimed I had a HR20 and your comment, in my mind, was uncalled for.


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## mjs31 (Sep 22, 2006)

cookpr said:


> No poll, but after almost a week now with this update, I have no idea how the geniouses at D* thought this was an upgrade and was needed to quell the storm of calls into customer service.
> 
> I had sporadic (as in maybe once per week) problems before.
> 
> ...


I have never had the major issues, but will say that I am not that happy with this release. My 30 sec slip is jumping ahead much more than it used to when I stop it. My 6 sec rewind stalls sometimes and then jumps back much much more than 6 seconds. Again...I am not having major issues, but something about this release worries me.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

mjs31 said:


> I have never had the major issues, but will say that I am not that happy with this release. My 30 sec slip is jumping ahead much more than it used to when I stop it. My 6 sec rewind stalls sometimes and then jumps back much much more than 6 seconds. Again...I am not having major issues, but something about this release worries me.


I sometimes worry that we have too much information. I talked with a friend today who has and HR20 and LOVES IT! No troubles, doesn't even know there was a downloador software release. I worry that we are too informed here and almost "expect" trouble.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I would assume he says "most people" because that's human nature. Sure, there are some people who will go out and post positive reviews of a product, or will shout the praises of a product from the highest mountain top. But in the grand scheme of things, those people are not the norm.
> 
> The company I work for now is a small print shop thats been around 50+ years, in a small town. We have a client list in the thousands, and we run into customers all the time who need something "yesterday" because they screwed something up. Most times we're able to pull some strings in the schedule and bail them out. Most times, you won't even get a "thank you" from those people. But turn it around and something goes wrong on our end and we're a day late, and the same people will be in your front office *****ing like there's no tomorrow.
> 
> ...


My point was mainly to counter the idea that because the vast majority of people who report about a product have negative things to say, that by extension, the HR20's negative responses are therefore really just a skewed, non-critical group of people, and all and all, the launch has been a perfectly acceptable product launch, no different than any others.

I realize that CNET user feedback isn't definitive in terms of a "state of the HR20" release, but my point is that it's not ONLY hostile, negative people (the ones whose toaster didn't work) who voice their opinions about a product post-purchase. The CC and CNET posts are just barometers of some sort, to me. And again, people disparage CNET, but if you are in the market for a new product, you might read both the CNET review and the user information as part of your overall decision process (and other online resources as well).

C'mon, when I purchased a set of Etymotic ER4S headphones to go with my MP3 player, I scanned the web, went to forums, CNET, and any other site that provided feedback. I found plenty of positive feedback (with good reasons why they liked the product), and as a result I bought a pair. If the tide had been overwhleming in the other direction, I wouldn't have bought them. That's human nature too, no?

As someone stated, the overall response to the HR20 has had strong negative elements, both in public forums (CNET, CC, even here in terms of the number of POS/POC posts, reported problems, etc.). I'd say there is a reason for it, no? I don't believe for a second if the HR20 launched and worked as advertised for the vast majority of users we'd even be having this debate/discussion, and DBSTalk would primarily still be what it was before the HR20, more focused on trading tricks/tips/advice rather than two sides arguing over whether or not the box was ready for prime time, broken, a POS/POC and all the other euphemisms/acryonms for problems.

Human nature being what it is, if something does what it is supposed to do, but what it does is very important, that makes a difference in how people respond, publicly and privately. If your toaster doesn't work, you can easily replace/return it. A DVR is a little different, especially one tied to a complex array of gear otherwise known as home entertainment. It's no simple act to change when the DVR you leased from your programming provider not only doesn't work, but you keep believing that sooner or later it will, but later seems more and more the reality.

Clint's post, to me, indicated that the HR20 situation was really just a case of the "squeaky wheel" minority causing a big ruckus, but in reality, the HR20 launch has been much like any other product launch, i.e, there will always be some complainers, but overall, the vast majority are happy. In my opinion, that isn't the case. And I don't think the vast majority are unhappy either, but even if it's a 70-30 split (good to bad), that's a lot of unhappy people.

As a footnote, I did recommend on a post yesterday that a new member actually go through with his HR20 installation (with the caveat that he not move his HR10 to the bedroom quite yet). So my criticism of the overall HR20 launch notwithstanding, I do use and like the machine. But that new member did exactly what I said people do. He saw all the negative stuff, and wanted more information before making a decision. That's human nature too.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> *Excuse me!!!* :scratch:
> 
> I don't post reviews of units I don't own and I don't vote in polls on units I don't own. If you have some evidence to support your claim, I suggest you produce it.
> 
> I over and over repeat I do not own a HR20, it's not listed in my sig, yet I reserve my right to post to any thread in this forum. Last I checked the HR20 forum was not limited to HR20 owners....opps, lessees.


Touche' Wolfpack. Keep posting. We need all the feedback and suggestions of any kind of expert that we can get.

When working with you earlier, it was a pleasure to have someone else that could look at something and catch things.

I did not see the rule that YOU must only post in threads on equipment that you own any where either...

To stay on topic, 11b has worked and will continue to work. Good or Bad, who really cares. That is what we have so if you have a problem and don't want to argue about it, call D* and report it, write a letter to them, switch to another provider, but don't start BOLD typing in a forum where people, in general, take thier own time to try and discover issues, answer questions, or want to know more about a product.


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## jselinger24 (Jan 27, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> I sometimes worry that we have too much information. I talked with a friend today who has and HR20 and LOVES IT! No troubles, doesn't even know there was a downloador software release. I worry that we are too informed here and almost "expect" trouble.


Good call ... I feel the same way sometimes. I love this unit (HR-20) but I can't stop screwing aroun with it. You are never happy enough - you know?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tstarn said:


> My point was mainly to counter the idea that because the vast majority of people who report about a product have negative things to say, that by extension, the HR20's negative responses are therefore really just a skewed, non-critical group of people, and all and all, the launch has been a perfectly acceptable product launch, no different than any others.


That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was simply pointing out that most (in general) reviews and posts on forums are typically done by people that have problems. People the don't have problems don't bother, especially Joe Sixpack.

That by no mean says that negative reviews or posts aren't valid. They certainly are. And as we know there are problems with the HR20. I also think you have so many negative reviews because the problems with the HR20 have galvanized a group of people to shout it at the highest mountain that DirecTV has screwed them over by getting rid of their beloved Tivo. I'd not hesitate to say that many of those reviews on CNet are from people who don't even own an HR20 but want to make DirecTV look bad. See as evidence the many posts by people at TCF that the HR20 sucks, but yet they don't own one and have never tried one. They just have an axe to grind.

Again, makes the problems no less valid, it just needs to be taken in perspective.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

HR20 in the exercise room: Went down to work out: Was greeted to a BSOD and missed recordings. Last night, the TV was on an MPEG IV local, and the tv and HR20 were turned off via remote. No other activity between that time at this morning"s BSOD.

On another set, where I have a non dvr H20, picture and sound locked on one channel. Remote and front panel were non-responsive.

Both cured by RBRs.


Now, upstairs, I have two R10's and and HR10-250. Everything was working perfectly, as it always does. So, I know others have said this before, but: HEY, DIRECTV, GO BACK TO TIVO! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> I sometimes worry that we have too much information. I talked with a friend today who has and HR20 and LOVES IT! No troubles, doesn't even know there was a downloador software release. I worry that we are too informed here and almost "expect" trouble.


Did your friend ever own a DVR before the HR20? If I came from no DVR to the HR20 clean I would probably love it too. Unfortunately I was spoiled with the stability and ease of use of my past two Tivo DVR's so the HR20 is being held to a high standard. If not for this forum I would have switched back to my previous setup so in my case the information has helped me appreciate it far more.


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## Howie (Aug 16, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I am critical of the R15, HR20, DTVs release of both units and their subsequent inability to fix said units. How on earth does that equate to me doing a review of the HR20? Please clarify that for me.
> 
> I never have claimed I had a HR20 and your comment, in my mind, was uncalled for.


You're right, it was uncalled for. I probably shouldn't drink and post. I apologize.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was simply pointing out that most (in general) reviews and posts on forums are typically done by people that have problems. People the don't have problems don't bother, especially Joe Sixpack.


Yes, when you have a unit with problems. But there are many reviews on CNET on good products with good user ratings. If you make a good product you will get a good user rating. If you make a poor product you will get a worse customer rating and many more posts. In the end it is a system that works.



bonscott87 said:


> That by no mean says that negative reviews or posts aren't valid. They certainly are. And as we know there are problems with the HR20. I also think you have so many negative reviews because the problems with the HR20 have galvanized a group of people to shout it at the highest mountain that DirecTV has screwed them over by getting rid of their beloved Tivo. I'd not hesitate to say that many of those reviews on CNet are from people who don't even own an HR20 but want to make DirecTV look bad. See as evidence the many posts by people at TCF that the HR20 sucks, but yet they don't own one and have never tried one. They just have an axe to grind.


I don't doubt some of the 145 reviews are simply to pull down the rating. But in the reviews I've read I didn't see any sign of a review from someone that didn't own a HR20. All the reviews I read the detail on listed specific problems, specific known problems.

Regarding Tivo, of course customers are going to compare any new equipment to the equipment it replaced. When I purchase a new video camera I'm going to compare that to my old video camera and it better be cheaper, smaller and have better features than the old camera. That's just a normal method to determine if you are making steps forward or backwards. This isn't a Tivo thing, it's a reliable DVR thing. If UTV was the latest reliable DVR sold by DTV then this would be a UTV thing. Perhaps we should stop using the words "Tivo" and "UTV" and instead use the term "ACME DVR" to represent a basic, reliable DVR that records/replays correctly and doesn't require reboots/reformats. Instead of someone in frustration saying "I wish I had my Tivo back" they could now say "I wish I had my ACME DVR back".

If you want to continue pushing this conspiracy theory that everyone is out to get DTV and the HR20 feel free. IMO that argument is getting a bit old. Keep in mind that these same arguments took place early in 2006 regarding the R15. R15 customers have gotten over that and while still reporting the same problems, have stopped adding the overhead of worrying who's a R15 fan and who's not.

Why not put an end to the labeling of members as for or against the HR20? I'm taking a huge risk here, but I believe it's safe to say everyone is for a reliable SD and HD DVR from DTV.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> If you want to continue pushing this conspiracy theory that everyone is out to get DTV and the HR20 feel free. IMO that argument is getting a bit old. Keep in mind that these same arguments took place early in 2006 regarding the R15. R15 customers have gotten over that and while still reporting the same problems, have stopped adding the overhead of worrying who's a R15 fan and who's not.


I push no such theory. Was just thinking out loud, that's all.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

When a point of view (and published article) is based on an *ADMITTED GUESSTIMATE *that *OVER 20%* of the people with HR20's are having major issues, it makes real sense to have to keep up this argument - or lose credibility for sure. A much more conservative (realistic?) estimate of problem units DOES lessen the argument, doesn't it?

IMO if the percentage of people with major issues was ANYWHERE near 20%, the unit would have been taken off of the market by now, as this would amount to corporate suicide. Say what you want, but a failure rate of 20% WOULD ABSOLUTELY been dealt with much differently than you see.

If the percentage is 5% or less (which absolutley makes more sense since the product IS still available), it needs D*s immediate and concerted attention for sure, but the problem is MUCH different than that scare scenario (over 20%).

Just trying to put it in perspective. I feel for anyone that purchases/leases anything that is not perfoming to expectations. But it's NOT WAR of THE WORLDS.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> My point was mainly to counter the idea that because the vast majority of people who report about a product have negative things to say, that by extension, the HR20's negative responses are therefore really just a skewed, non-critical group of people, and all and all, the launch has been a perfectly acceptable product launch, no different than any others.


I did notice the post where you recommended that someone go through with their installation...

I generally don't get out here on the leading edge of product releases, so I don't know how this product rollout compares to others, and wasn't trying to speak to that sentiment in particular. I was referring most pointedly to the assertion that overall negativity on those user review sites was myth... Certainly they are useful if you take the time to wade through and pick out the useful bits, but they do have much more negative action than positive...

I agree to a point that the negative comments are the minority, maybe a vast minority, maybe not so vast. It seems with the HR20, more so than many products I've seen, the people with problems are extra vociferous in their complaints. Maybe not so surprisingly given an American culture that is so mediacentric, but still, those with problems, ranging from minor to crippling, are incredibly vocal in their complaints.

Given that, and the fact that I don't follow product rollouts, I wonder how different this product rollout is compared to others. I don't know, so this isn't an assertion one way or another.... But, we can all agree that negative experiences are more likely to be shared, and I think we can all agree that the HR20 detractors have been very vocal. I personally think that the ratio of good to bad experiences on this forum is probably an exaggeration of the actual ratio in the field - the users here seem to be the ones who push their Hr20s, seem to be the ones who use ALL the features, ALL the time... - So if polls here show 70-75% who are mostly happy, I could see the actual ratio being 80-85% who are mostly happy... Still alot of unhappy people and still an unacceptable approval rate, but would that be an extreme difference from other recent product rollouts? Again, I don't know because I don't follow them all that much, but it seems there are alot of comments that other products like this are rolled out with problems that get fixed over time....


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I did notice the post where you recommended that someone go through with their installation...
> 
> I generally don't get out here on the leading edge of product releases, so I don't know how this product rollout compares to others, and wasn't trying to speak to that sentiment in particular. I was referring most pointedly to the assertion that overall negativity on those user review sites was myth... Certainly they are useful if you take the time to wade through and pick out the useful bits, but they do have much more negative action than positive...
> 
> ...


Point Taken.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Clint's post, to me, indicated that the HR20 situation was really just a case of the "squeaky wheel" minority causing a big ruckus, but in reality, the HR20 launch has been much like any other product launch, i.e, there will always be some complainers, but overall, the vast majority are happy. In my opinion, that isn't the case. And I don't think the vast majority are unhappy either, but even if it's a 70-30 split (good to bad), that's a lot of unhappy people.


My post was mearly meant to say you will normally see less people say hey great job then you will see people letting everyone know something went wrong. I'm not referring to the HR20 just what I see in general. I could never state a number like 70/30 or 80/20 or 30/70 because to be quite honest I have no knowledge of how many HR20's are actually out there and I have no way of ever even finding out who is and who isn't happy with the device. Nothing more sinister was intended by what I said.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> My post was mearly meant to say you will normally see less people say hey great job then you will see people letting everyone know something went wrong. I'm not referring to the HR20 just what I see in general. I could never state a number like 70/30 or 80/20 or 30/70 because to be quite honest I have no knowledge of how many HR20's are actually out there and I have no way of ever even finding out who is and who isn't happy with the device. Nothing more sinister was intended by what I said.


Understand.


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## hitdog042 (Dec 7, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Understand.


I can tell you my HR20 worked perfectly through all the updates.... until this one. I went months with no problems.

Now, I am getting a ton of audio synch, got BSOD once, noise pops, and lately when I sometimes forward to the end of a show to delete it, it automatically goes to the next show and starts playing.

Some people claim the new update is a savior, but for me, I am now having my first series of issues ever, all on the new update.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> When a point of view (and published article) is based on an *ADMITTED GUESSTIMATE *that *OVER 20%* of the people with HR20's are having major issues, it makes real sense to have to keep up this argument - or lose credibility for sure. A much more conservative (realistic?) estimate of problem units DOES lessen the argument, doesn't it?
> 
> IMO if the percentage of people with major issues was ANYWHERE near 20%, the unit would have been taken off of the market by now, as this would amount to corporate suicide. Say what you want, but a failure rate of 20% WOULD ABSOLUTELY been dealt with much differently than you see.
> 
> ...


No one knows the actual percentage of units with "major problems" except DTV. Why do we care? Whatever the percentage is, there are members here reporting steady problems and there are more members reporting a once working HR20 now has problems. That in itself is the problem.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> My post was mearly meant to say you will normally see less people say hey great job then you will see people letting everyone know something went wrong. I'm not referring to the HR20 just what I see in general. I could never state a number like 70/30 or 80/20 or 30/70 because to be quite honest I have no knowledge of how many HR20's are actually out there and I have no way of ever even finding out who is and who isn't happy with the device. Nothing more sinister was intended by what I said.


I really couldn't agree more.

And for FACT, it IS the actual number (percentage) of units/subs with problems that shapes this argument. A number we will probably NEVER know with any certainty.

If an article and argument shapes its reasoning on a number of greater than 20%, to buy in you have to buy in to the percentage that the article AND an argument is based on. If the number of 20% is a guestimate, by definitiion, the argument in total is a guestimate isn't it?

Sound business reasoning says the product would have been pulled if the number was ANYWHERE near that high.


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## banningview (Dec 13, 2006)

Trying to record MPEG4 of Lakers/Spurs ABC and PGA GOLF CBS at the same time. No go, all MGEG4 have choked and died. Massive pixelation and macro blocking. Yes, I checked all numbers on the signal strength 100, 97 100 on 99 and high 90's on 103. RBR again...

I'm sorry, you can't say this thing is any good. RBR20 is your new name.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> No one knows the actual percentage of units with "major problems" except DTV. Why do we care? Whatever the percentage is, there are members here reporting steady problems and there are more members reporting a once working HR20 now has problems. That in itself is the problem.


With all due respect, it matters a great deal. If DirecTV was faced with as high a number of 20%, it would be extremely reckless for the company and shareholders to keep the product on the market. (Remember what happened to Coleco).

Don't mix up my point of view as saying there is NO issues (which I have repeated). But my response and reaction as a company would be greatly different to a problem of 1% or to the other extreme of 20+%.

I have repeated my belief that if its even ONLY 1% than it is not good. BTW, any member that states a problem now with the forced firmware version, can simply force their units back to the national release version, can't they?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

ScoBuck said:


> ... BTW, any member that states a problem now with the forced firmware version, can simply force their units back to the national release version, can't they?


Normally you are correct, but 0x11b is now the national version.

Cheers,
Tom


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tibber said:


> Normally you are correct, but 0x11b is now the national version.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


thanks for the info


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## Scribo-san (Sep 30, 2006)

cookpr said:


> No poll, but after almost a week now with this update, I have no idea how the geniouses at D* thought this was an upgrade and was needed to quell the storm of calls into customer service.
> 
> This has to be the most frustrating tech product I have ever owned...$299 was an absolute rip off.
> 
> And all this with no hope in sight...


Personally, I've crossed the line from "an occasional glitch is OK because the tech is so cool" to "it's just not worth it any more."

So yes, from the one user's perspective, 11b is the worst update yet.

When it works, the DVR is the greatest thing since color TV ... but it's not working any more.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> When a point of view (and published article) is based on an *ADMITTED GUESSTIMATE *that *OVER 20%* of the people with HR20's are having major issues, it makes real sense to have to keep up this argument - or lose credibility for sure. A much more conservative (realistic?) estimate of problem units DOES lessen the argument, doesn't it?
> 
> IMO if the percentage of people with major issues was ANYWHERE near 20%, the unit would have been taken off of the market by now, as this would amount to corporate suicide. Say what you want, but a failure rate of 20% WOULD ABSOLUTELY been dealt with much differently than you see.
> 
> ...


Overall, the article was not based on any specific number (even though I did use that figure in the story you refer to). It was based on the fact that there has been a "debate" on whether or not there are problems with the HR20, and to what extent those problems are affecting users. Back in September, in fact, before all the downloads, there were people posting saying the box was a POS/POC, and there were posters saying there was nothing inherently wrong with the HR20, so the former group must be a small minority.

In the interim, there have been 15-something software downloads, which to many people would indicate that the problems run deeper than 5 percent or less of users, especially because some of those downloads have caused previously working HR20s to start having problems. Why deliver "fixes" to everyone if the problems were only affecting 5 percent or less of users? Why not just send the 5 percent "good" boxes and leave the rest alone?

There is some significant number of broken/poorly functioning HR20s, that's for sure. We've been all through this before. Even Earl has stated, in print, that the Directv has a "problem" with the HR20, and no one, not you or me, knows the true number of distressed/upset/even angry subscribers out there in the world. The number is high enough that the negative press/feedback/user responses on here and elsewhere have led them to put on a very massive push to get it fixed, which I'd say it isn't yet based on the issues thread hereabouts. It may be closer, or not. But it's not a success yet.

As far as a recall goes, unless the machines started causing fires or something that really risked physical harm, they wouldn't recall them even if 20 percent or more had problems. It is, after all, their flagship DVR, so barring risking injury (like with overheating laptop batteries, etc.), a recall isn't going to happen. But sending down a large number of software fixes (as well as adding functionality) would, and is, happening.

And I don't believe anyone has described this as the War of the Worlds.


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## banningview (Dec 13, 2006)

All MPEG 4 are out. D* "Sorry we are working to fix this problem, nothing we can do"

What the H*ll is that??? NO fix for MPEG4 locals. We've had this problem since December 11th and still no fix. What the heck are these guys doing??? It certainly isn't working on this box.

I'm sorry, we are going down!!!!! 

CRASH!


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Overall, the article was not based on any specific number (even though I did use that figure in the story you refer to).


I agree with Tom on this one. I assumed his was the article referred to and so I went back and read it again. I obviously don't speak for him, but I wouldn't anticipate the article being written much differently if 20% of the user base is having problems or if 5% was.

As to what the percentage may or may not be, we've seen in entirely unscientific polls in these forums that people happy with the HR20 is somewhere around 70-75%. I assume that number to be skewed somewhat to the negative for reasons we've hashed over in earlier posts, but I'd be surprised if 75% happy here translated to 95% happy overall.

Perhaps 5% of the population is experiencing what could be classified as major or critical issues with another 10 or 15% experiencing minor issues. For instance, since 011b, I've had two mornings where I turned on the box to discover a black screen. Menus and banners all display, but no audio or video. Shows programmed to record worked as planned. A reset and all is well. Obviously this needs to be fixed - if I have to reboot daily, I'll be livid - but in the scope of things RIGHT NOW, I'd consider this a "minor" issue. Not dismissing it or saying i'm ok with this performance, but when you have a large number of users missing recordings with regularity, this PITA issue I would classify as a small problem.

This is the only scenario I can come up with that I would find 5% a reasonable estimation for the people having issues. I just don't think that this forum is THAT FAR skewed from reality.... again just a gut instinct I'm going with on this one, but I think that it's not that far fetched to think that 15-20% of users are experiencing one or more of the documented glitches with this machine, with some degree of regularity, and with varying degrees of "badness"....


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Overall, the article was not based on any specific number (even though I did use that figure in the story you refer to). It was based on the fact that there has been a "debate" on whether or not there are problems with the HR20, and to what extent those problems are affecting users. Back in September, in fact, before all the downloads, there were people posting saying the box was a POS/POC, and there were posters saying there was nothing inherently wrong with the HR20, so the former group must be a small minority.


There has NEVER been a debate on whether or not there are/have been problems with the HR20. It is obvious to ALL that some umber (unknown %) ARE experiencing various issues. But if the number wasn't important, and since it was an admitted guestimate, DON'T think some people use it as a reference point.



tstarn said:


> In the interim, there have been 15-something software downloads, which to many people would indicate that the problems run deeper than 5 percent or less of users, especially because some of those downloads have caused previously working HR20s to start having problems. Why deliver "fixes" to everyone if the problems were only affecting 5 percent or less of users? Why not just send the 5 percent "good" boxes and leave the rest alone?


This is NOT true. There have been a TOTAL maybe of 15 updates, not in the interim since your article was published. Many of the latest are BETA and available only if desired, and mostly unknown to the general population. Since themajority of updates are BETAS, I believe that it shows that DirecTV has been fairly happy with those pushed out nationally. This to me has NO indication of the percentage of people with issues, just the ongoind development of code.



tstarn said:


> There is some significant number of broken/poorly functioning HR20s, that's for sure. We've been all through this before. Even Earl has stated, in print, that the Directv has a "problem" with the HR20, and no one, not you or me, knows the true number of distressed/upset/even angry subscribers out there in the world. The number is high enough that the negative press/feedback/user responses on here and elsewhere have led them to put on a very massive push to get it fixed, which I'd say it isn't yet based on the issues thread hereabouts. It may be closer, or not. But it's not a success yet.


There are a number of poorly functioning HR20's I agree - what is significant and where do you get that number? Earl also stated quire clearly (and I agree), even 1% is not good and needs to be adressed andcorrected. But a problem at 1% is WAY different than one at 20%, I am sure you will agree at least to that point, won't you?



tstarn said:


> As far as a recall goes, unless the machines started causing fires or something that really risked physical harm, they wouldn't recall them even if 20 percent or more had problems. It is, after all, their flagship DVR, so barring risking injury (like with overheating laptop batteries, etc.), a recall isn't going to happen. But sending down a large number of software fixes (as well as adding functionality) would, and is, happening..


You making things up again, I NEVER said or implied a recall, I did say they would be pulled from the market (and they wouold if the number was that high). Again the HIGH number of fixes are mostly BETAS, and to me it makes perfect sense to test new code this way.



tstarn said:


> And I don't believe anyone has described this as the War of the Worlds.


See - you also don't seem to like it when exaggerations are made.

All I'm trying to do is temper the argument here, I have NEVER said some people aren't having issues/problems, etc. I believe many are, but as I said - if its 1%, that's one thing, 5% something different, 20% WAY different.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I agree with Tom on this one. I assumed his was the article referred to and so I went back and read it again. I obviously don't speak for him, but I wouldn't anticipate the article being written much differently if 20% of the user base is having problems or if 5% was.


I respect your opinion, but the article (and the ACTUAL PROBLEM) would be MUCH different if the % of affected people was 5% or 20%.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

banningview said:


> All MPEG 4 are out. D* "Sorry we are working to fix this problem, nothing we can do"
> 
> What the H*ll is that??? NO fix for MPEG4 locals. We've had this problem since December 11th and still no fix. What the heck are these guys doing??? It certainly isn't working on this box.
> 
> ...


FYI that if your MPEG4 locals are down that has nothing to do with the HR20. It's just a receiver.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> I respect your opinion, but the article (and the ACTUAL PROBLEM) would be MUCH different if the % of affected people was 5% or 20%.


I disagree that the article would be any different. The reference to the number of machines having issues isn't until near the end of the article, and is in response to DirecTVs assertion through a statement that "most of these issues have been resolved". Quoting the text of the article:

_Most of the issues have been resolved? Hardly. Remember, that statement was posted on Nov. 3! Of course, there are satisfied subs out there who have fared well with their HR20s, but even if only 15-20 percent are having the recurring reliability problems (downloads notwithstanding), it's still way too many (though my hunch is the number is higher)._

I don't see how it would be much different if it read _"..., but even if only 5 percent are having the recurring reliability problems (downloads not witchstanding), it's still way too many (though my hunch is the number is higher)."_

It doesn't really change the spirit of the article which is that there is a HUGE furor surrounding the release of this product. While we don't have any solid numbers from DirecTV and we probably never will, we have anecdotally through polls here a number around 25%, and I still have trouble making a jump from 25% here to 5% across the entire distribution of the product.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> There has NEVER been a debate on whether or not there are/have been problems with the HR20. It is obvious to ALL that some umber (unknown %) ARE experiencing various issues. But if the number wasn't important, and since it was an admitted guestimate, DON'T think some people use it as a reference point.
> 
> This is NOT true. There have been a TOTAL maybe of 15 updates, not in the interim since your article was published. Many of the latest are BETA and available only if desired, and mostly unknown to the general population. Since themajority of updates are BETAS, I believe that it shows that DirecTV has been fairly happy with those pushed out nationally. This to me has NO indication of the percentage of people with issues, just the ongoind development of code.
> 
> ...


I'm tired out you missing the point, but one clarification: The "in the interim" phrase relates to the time frame between early September, when the HR20 was launched, and now. In that "interim" there have been 15 or so software downloads, some went national, others did not. It did not refer to the time between my article and now. So my apologies if you didn't understand that.

Also, in the very early days, the original debate was whether or not the HR20 was working right or not to a small extent, but much of the debate focused on the "feature" differences between the HR20 and the "other" HD DVR Directv had been offering. Only until time elapsed and the HR20 problems (and its negative reputation grew out of those problems) did the debate move into the realm of "okay, there are problems, but they are only affecting a small minority of users" vs. "Yes, there are problems, they are affecting a significant number of users, and Directv has its hands full fixing them."

Sorry if you didn't say recall. Even removing them from the shelves would not be a move Directv would make, since it would be admitting there is a major problem with the HR20, and they are not going to admit that unless over time they are forced to do so because the problems people are seeing are not cleared up. It's just business. As you might remember, there was a shortage of the machines soone after the software downloads starting coming. That could have been demand, or it could have been a slowdown of manufacturing until they sorted out some of the software problems.

Not sure what you mean by "betas" in the case of software. Last I heard, Earl pretty much clearly stated in his 0x11b release notes that the latest download was specifically targeted to stability/functionality issues, and nothing else. To me, that indicates stability/functionality is an issue for more than 5 percent of users. But then again, you seem to know better on the numbers front. I guess they decided to "force" a stability/reliability update on 100 percent of users, but only 5 percent or less are having stability/reliability problems.

Sure you want the last word. But enough is enough. For me, 0x11b has not been the worst update so far.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I disagree that the article would be any different. The reference to the number of machines having issues isn't until near the end of the article.....


Ok - whatever, but where in the article it is written doesn't matter (ever see the disclaimers on a auto ad?).

He wrote the article from a perspective and feeling that the number of folks was 20%. If you don't think that SHAPES the argument so be it. I DO!


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I agree with Tom on this one. I assumed his was the article referred to and so I went back and read it again. I obviously don't speak for him, but I wouldn't anticipate the article being written much differently if 20% of the user base is having problems or if 5% was.
> 
> As to what the percentage may or may not be, we've seen in entirely unscientific polls in these forums that people happy with the HR20 is somewhere around 70-75%. I assume that number to be skewed somewhat to the negative for reasons we've hashed over in earlier posts, but I'd be surprised if 75% happy here translated to 95% happy overall.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I needed that. The number is not the point, and even if it's 5 percent serious, 10-15 percent annoying issues, that is a significant number of Directv subs with the HR20.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

banningview said:


> All MPEG 4 are out.


Just yours or everyones?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Scobuck, Sharkie_fan, Tsarn, et al.

I am not saying that any of you has denied there are problems with the HR20. But there have been some who have denied problems with the HR20. Or that they are not software related. To the point that even Earl has been ignored that there are problems. So understand that some posts may not be directed toward you or your feelings. You all have clearly understood the existence of said problems.

I am curious as to: 1) how many users are experiencing the technical problems we have identified here; 2) what D* would do if that percentage was 5%, 10%, 20%, 40%. And while that is an idle curiosity on my part, I'm certainly not gonna worry about it. D* will fix the problems. Obviously not soon enough, that passed in September . 

Keepin' it light, team 
Tom


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Thanks, I needed that. The number is not the point, and even if it's 5 percent serious, 10-15 percent annoying issues, that is a significant number of Directv subs with the HR20.


No problem.... I think in many ways, you've unfortunately become the face of the HR20 detractors, though I think you're article was pretty fair in your assessment of the state of the Hr20...

As far as the numbers go, I tend to agree that they're fairly unimportant. I think even if the number is 5% PERIOD, it's way too significant a number of subscribers.


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## banningview (Dec 13, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> FYI that if your MPEG4 locals are down that has nothing to do with the HR20. It's just a receiver.


Yes, you would think so, but I've stumped the CSRs at D* for the last hour. They haven't a clue!


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

I wouldn't ever use unfortunate as to tstarn being the FACE of the detractors, quite the contrary I believe thats exactly as he wants to be positioned. He has his opinion, he is entitled to it. I don't knock him in any way for stating his case.

And yes, as stated even at 1% the number is too high. But the magnitude of the problem is FAR different at 1%, 5% or 20%. The magnitude of the response is far different also for a problem at 1% or a problem at 20%.

I have seen nothing here that would allow me or ANYONE ELSE to make anything other than a GUESS as to what the number is.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tibber said:


> I am curious as to: 1) how many users are experiencing the technical problems we have identified here; 2) what D* would do if that percentage was 5%, 10%, 20%, 40%. And while that is an idle curiosity on my part, I'm certainly not gonna worry about it. D* will fix the problems. Obviously not soon enough, that passed in September .


I share the same curiousity, which is why I can't seem to get enough of these forums, I guess. My Hr20 has performed nearly flawlessly since I got it in the middle of September. Actually, if I was writing this last week, I would have said it did perform flawlessly, but I've been bitten a few times in the last week - fortunately only 1 recording issue, served up along side a few black screens coming out of reboot.

I don't know what criteria D* uses to determine what percentage of problems are acceptable and what percentage requires immediate focused response and what percentage they would consdier completely unacceptable nuclear meltdown... I know that in my line of work the general rule of thumb is that 10% shortage is considered acceptable. Given that so many consumers find the performance of their DVR to be so critical, I would guess than anything more than 5% would be a serious, serious issue to DirecTV.

Obviously I'm looking at this from a small business perspective, but if we're more than 10% short, we start over from scratch. Doesn't matter if it's 11% o4 80%, we go back to square one and do it again. I would think that D* has some threshold they've determined is an acceptable number, and anything below that number is unacceptable and gets the concerted efforts of the programming team.


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## hitdog042 (Dec 7, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> I wouldn't ever use unfortunate as to tstarn being the FACE of the detractors, quite the contrary I believe thats exactly as he wants to be positioned. He has his opinion, he is entitled to it. I don't knock him in any way for stating his case.
> 
> And yes, as stated even at 1% the number is too high. But the magnitude of the problem is FAR different at 1%, 5% or 20%. The magnitude of the response is far different also for a problem at 1% or a problem at 20%.
> 
> I have seen nothing here that would allow me or ANYONE ELSE to make anything other than a GUESS as to what the number is.


You guys keep filling this forum with useless discussions you can have via private messaging. People are asking questions that never get seen because they have to read through 100 posts of a rant to find them.


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## banningview (Dec 13, 2006)

Anyone else notice that the number of rants has increased exponentially since the inception of the RBR20. Just sayin'


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> You making things up again, I NEVER said or implied a recall, I did say they would be pulled from the market (and they wouold if the number was that high). Again the HIGH number of fixes are mostly BETAS, and to me it makes perfect sense to test new code this way.


What's the difference between a "recall" and being pulled from market? There's no way DTV is going to recall/pull the HR20 from the market unless it starts on fire or blows up. That will never happen despite the number of customers with problems.

Also, how is 6 out of 16 releases a HIGH number? With 11b there have been 16 updates, 10 of which have gone national, 6 did not. That's 37.5%, not what I'd consider a HIGH number. If that is a HIGH number then I guess a HIGH number of HR20 owners (38.98%) are not satisfied with their units per the Satisification Poll.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

If you SERIOUSLY don't know the difference between a recall or pulled from the market, I just can't help you out to understand that.

As far as 6 out of 16 - sounds fairly high to me. And considering that of the 16 at least 3 if not 4 were just to add fearures, its just about HALF of the remaining.

Sorry we look at this from different sides, so be it.


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## Tom M (Jan 4, 2007)

ScoBuck said:


> With all due respect, it matters a great deal. If DirecTV was faced with as high a number of 20%, it would be extremely reckless for the company and shareholders to keep the product on the market. (Remember what happened to Coleco).


The failure/problem rate is actually a secondary consideration at this point. Problems or not, D* will stick with the HR20 so long as they are maintaining a positive revenue stream (or at least forecast one in the not too distant future) by having it available.

If D* needs to keep providing financial incentives in the form of reduced fees to the user community in order to remove the threat of litigation they will continue to do so as pulling support for the HR20 is not going to happen at this point.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> If you SERIOUSLY don't know the difference between a recall or pulled from the market, I just can't help you out to understand that.
> 
> As far as 6 out of 16 - sounds fairly high to me. And considering that of the 16 at least 3 if not 4 were just to add fearures, its just about HALF of the remaining.
> 
> Sorry we look at this from different sides, so be it.


Not to be a smarta$$ here, but I'm not clear on the difference either... In all seriousness, I would be interested to know what the difference is.

I did a google search, but didn't find anything delineating the difference. It seems to me that a product recall, is just that recalling all products back to the manufacturer because of some issue with them.... Essentially pulling them off the market and back to the manufacturer?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Not to be a smarta$$ here, but I'm not clear on the difference either... In all seriousness, I would be interested to know what the difference is.
> 
> I did a google search, but didn't find anything delineating the difference. It seems to me that a product recall, is just that recalling all products back to the manufacturer because of some issue with them.... Essentially pulling them off the market and back to the manufacturer?


A recall clearly means that they would ask ALL owners of the product to return it. Pulling a product from the store shelf (until such time as they felt things were ok) clearly would mean that ADDITIONAL units would NOT be offered.

Huge difference.


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## Marty B (Sep 21, 2006)

Yes. It is the worst yet. Man I wish I were among the crowd who are not having problems. All I want is a DVR that records reliably.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

BTW - I really don't have much interest in carrying this much further. For someone to say that the NUMBER or percentage) of people that have problems DOESN'T matter - that's an argument that I just can't give any creedence to.

While having EVEN 1 end user not happy is not good - to think that there is NO DIFFERENCE between 1%, 5% or 20% problem rate - all I can say is WOW!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Again, and then I'm done also. IMO the number/percentage of customers with problems doesn't matter to *US*. We don't know the number, we can't do anything about the number so why is it important to argue as to what the number is? It matters to DTV, they have that number and they are basing their decisions on that number.

For grins & giggles I'd love to know what it is. But in the end it DOESN'T matter....again IMO.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

agreed to disagree.


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## JWR1953 (Dec 24, 2006)

Quick note from pro lurker...
Had Tivo SD box for over 4 years without ANY problems.

HR20 installed two weeks ago. Stated with version 0x10b, no problems.
Updated per national release 0x11b 1-23.

Had FIRST lockup yesterday. Had to reboot for the first time. 

This better not happen next Sunday! My over air antenna (indoor) will not pick up
local channel CBS!

GO BEARS!


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## Teronzhul (Sep 21, 2006)

Had mine for about 3 weeks now, started with x10b and had no problems until the last couple of days with x11b. 

One night it locked up during a recording (missed) that required not only a reboot, but resetting the machine to single lnb then back to 5lnb for it to even display HD channels again.

Got my first Keep or Delete.

Had a recording that the first 25 minutes of were black screen and displayed "searching for authorized content"

I have been quite annoyed over the past 3 days.


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