# Do you know E* provides 3 guides and why PSIP guide info isn't used?



## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

*Did you know dish is supplying 3 different guides?*

1) Guide for current and following program (used in the browse feature).
2) 3 day guide (which most receivers reduce to 44 hrs)
3) 9 day guide (used by DVR units)

*Why doesn't E* use PSIP for guide data?*

The reason that *PSIP* is not used for guide info is because most stations do not provide 9 days of info so Dish didn't persue that method.

This is also why the free 3 day guide is not provided for the 921/942.
It's 9 days or nothing.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

PSIP actually allows for 16 days of data capacity but it is true that the FCC (at this time) has only required stations to transmit EIT out to 8 hours. You failed to state that even though the FCC requirement is only 8 hours of future listings, many stations are finding it easier to pull the data from their programming department via the TMS service since it is available from download and can be easily loaded into the PSIP computer as opposed to setting up another department or people task to compose an 8 hour listing that has the minimum FCC requirement just for minimum compliance. The only stations who will be tasked with composing their 8 hour minimum schedule are those who do not currently provide data to the TMS services. These would be some independent, LP, and religious genre stations. But then these will not be available to E* in any case if they refuse to implement PSIP as the backup base of data. Of course, if you consider the reality of all data then designing a receiver to have both PSIP or TMS would be the ideal solution for consumers but not to the coercion of additional LIL sales which is the really TRUE reason why E* is not using PSIP. jergenF- don't be conned by your single source of information on this, the CSR's and con-men at E*. Look at all the angles and especially with what stations can do and will be doing as they fully implement their PSIP as an SOP for digital transmissions. You are going to see great strides by local stations to implement many of the options they have over the next 2-3 years as we near the shutdown of NTSC. As that day approaches, stations will realize that the new DT is their bread and butter, not the analog channels that currently are. 

Besides- you should also understand that while E* is NOT working on getting us guide data on the 921 from PSIP in the display, they are working on using PSIP EIT to: "We are still looking at the use of PSIP but much more with the interest of it being used to enhance rather than replace the satellite data source." Now you can read anything you want into that but I feel it does not mean that we will ever see PSIP from the stations directly in the guide. 
There is a major problem I see that you failed to mention with your post. PSIP would be from multiple sources and each source would only populate the guide grid for that station only. Thus, in order to see a fully populated grid, one would need to scan all channels, load the EIT into memory and then move to the next channel, repeat, and so forth until all channels are fully populated. With TMS single source, they entire table is populated with the sat signal data stream. Much simpler! To further complicate this, E*'s insistance on designing a PVR with a single tuner exacerbates the complexity because there is no second OTA tuner to achieve the scan of channels in a background function as would be if the DVR had been designed with a second OTA tuner. I don't have any answer to how they could achieve this EIT implementation without executing a temporary disabling of your OTA tuner for viewing while the guide is populated on all channels. Once complete, it would be returned to you until the next, say, 24 hours when it would update again. A dual tuner could be scanning in the background constantly. Of course, if you were tuned to a sat channel the single OTA tuner could be used to update at that time as well. 

In summary- I don't think the 8 hour EIT FCC requirement is a serious concern since all of the stations I spoke with are working toward using the downloaded data as oppose to composing their own. IT appears that this is going to be what stations will be doing as it is just easier. The real issue is creating proper software to deal with the single tuner and multiple PSIP sources in a scanning background operation to populate the guide. It will never be graceful with the 921 and 942. Finally, it remains that E* has continued plans to sell the guide service as long as the FCC lets them get away with it.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> In summary- I don't think the 8 hour EIT FCC requirement is a serious concern since all of the stations I spoke with are working toward using the downloaded data as oppose to composing their own.


I wish this were true in Denver...of the 4 stations that actually provide guide data, not a one of them goes out beyond 12 hours...and with Dish being based here...


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Mark- It takes awhile but when stations begin to see how some of this can be implemented easier and better, they usually opt for that procedure. When I first heard of the download method for stations that subscribe to TMS, I thought it was a round about way but after learning how much easier it is from the station engineers, it made sense. The key issue at hand here is that E* needs to implement this PSIP EIT and not force users to buy their service. Then, no matter what some level of guide data would be available all users with the option to sub to LIL for something better.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

DonLandis said:


> jergenF- don't be conned by your single source of information on this, the CSR's and con-men at E*.


I received the information from an administrator here at DBSTalk who in turned received it from an engineer at dishnetwork. And no I'm not conned.

I agree that the explanation may be an excuse for DN to abandon implementing PSIP for obtaining guide data. Also agree that DN is witholding their 9 day guide in order to persuade customers to purchase locals simply for the added guide function. Furthermore I agree with you that DN should still use PSIP as a backup method in the event that a digital station is providing long range information.

Both you and I and many others have expressed our concerns on these forums and our words has reached dishnetwork's ears. But the bottom line is that they won't change their policy unless they're forced to by law. It's a business decision on their part and many customers are caving in and subscribing anyway.

I had suggested in a poll here "EPG only" for a buck as a compromise solution but as some have said, and I paraphase, "Why should dish settle for one dollar when they getting 5?".

The real solution to this cause lies with the customers themselves. If they buy channels they don't really need then their feeding "you know who" and that just makes it harder for those of us that get our digital OTAs free. As I've quoted before "free should mean free".


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Thanks for your explanation. I WAS beginning to worry about you.  Glad we're on the same page on this. 

Mainly this but a few other reasonse as well, I did roll back my subscriptions substantially to that which is unique programming with E*, pay their $5 per month penalty for doing that and am quite happy with the decision. I refuse to pay for LIL channels just to get guide data that is crippled and beta challenged when I di have free choices from E* competitor. The way I figure this, I dropped my AEP and kept the HD Pack, VOOM and CBS waivered HD channel. This reduced my bill by about $95. $95/5.99=~16 customers who caved to the purchase of LIL to get the guide. 
E*'s current business practices loses them revenue and puts it in the hands of their competition D*, in my case. I see it as this wasn't my decision, it was their's. If they would have done what's right, I would have remained with E* as my primary SD program provider.


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## madbrain (Dec 10, 2004)

Personally, I think Dish has no excuse with not implementing PSIP in the 921. They could certainly do it with the current architecture. They are just lazy. They should be using the DVR fee to fund this code change .

I have a Samsung SIR-T165 OTA tuner. It has a full guide with PSIP data for all channels ! When you bring it up, it takes about a minute or so to come up, because it tunes to each channel and fetches the PSIP . It is quite annoying to wait for one minute - as there is nothing else the box does but tune -, but it certainly works.

The 921 on the other hand is a multitasking box by nature. It can play back one stream and record 2 others . There is no reason that Dish cannot implement the PSIP data fetch as a background task. There are no shortage of opportunities to trigger it :

The only cases in which the unit won't be able to get the PSIP is if
you watch/record OTA for more than 8 hours in a row . This probably happens only if you left your 921 on an OTA channel, and forgot to turn it off. This case could easily be dealt with using an inactivity timer and prompt. If the user doesn't respond within 2 minutes, then the 921 would switch away from the channel for a minute or 2. And this could be a configurable setting, if the user doesn't want this to ever happen.

The other case is that you are recording an OTA event for more than 8 hours. If that's the case, the unit knows not to switch away, and you won't get the PSIP data until your events end.

As channels extend their PSIP data past 8 hours, the problem will become non-existent, as the 921 would not need to use the OTA tuner often at all to fetch PSIP.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

I've seen the PSIP that my market uses and it's a mess!
A lot of the time there's no info, the wrong info, and the formatting is just bad.

Make's sense to me why dish would rely on there own and not PSIP...


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## madbrain (Dec 10, 2004)

Well, in my market the PSIP covers about 70% of the channels, though it's not a 9 day guide by any means, it's a heck of a lot better than nothing, which is what you get from Dish if you don't subscribe to LIL . Even if you subscribe, there are channels which have PSIP that Dish doesn't have any guide for .


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Another guide story, the 811 had the 9 day guide feature but was abandoned during beta testing because it had 6 to 8 minute download times. The 9 day guide is best suited for dual tuner units because of the time it takes to load and DVR units because the guide data would occupy too much RAM space.


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