# Help me choose a game systems



## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

The wife and I have discussing for sometime about getting a game system for the kids (not necessarily for Christmas) but neither one of us have used one nor owned one. The only thing ever hooked to my TV which could play games was my old Radio Shack Color Computer.

Anyway, we could really use the advice of those who have more experience with them. The system is primarily for the children, Ages 4 and 6 but mom and dad might want to use it from time to time as well.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I like the Wii as it doesn't encourage long hours in front of the TV and actually makes the kids be athletic!


----------



## 50+ (May 1, 2008)

My son and his kids have the wii. The kids are 8 & 11 this could make a difference, not sure about the games for younger kids. When me and the wife go over it is even fun for us to play. It is hooked to the internet and my son plays games with people all over the world, pretty cool. I havent gotten past the games that came with it they are really fun. Hope this helps.


----------



## fwlogue (Dec 6, 2006)

I have a Wii and PS3 I originally bought the PS3 as it has blue ray and this gave me a blue ray player as well as game for the grands kids. We then bought the Wii. The grandkids play the Wii more than the PS3. The PS3 is very rarely used for games. They like the Wii better as they can get into the game more with the Wii. If they are playing tennis it is almost like you are really playing tennis same with bowling golf and other games that we have for them.


----------



## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I like the Wii as it doesn't encourage long hours in front of the TV and actually makes the kids be athletic!


+1


----------



## shenefie (Dec 15, 2006)

yes, the wii is probably good for the kids. but remember, for the kids. nintendo has taken the track of only making games for the 14 and under crowd. i bought the wii when it came out and now it collects dust because there are no real 'grown-up' new games out. wii sports and wii fit are fun, but beyond that, there isnt much if you are over 14. ps3 has the advantages of having the blu-ray player, which is a plus if you have a HDTV for sure! so i guess it really depends how old your kids are and what kind of games they like. oh, and ps3 just released playstation home, but isnt really a place for kiddies. lotsa foul language (if you use a headset) and some of the people are kinda rude and crude. but it is fun. little big planet is a fun game for kids and adults. hope this helps!


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

We just bout a Wii ourselves after many months of homework and research (and trial use).

The deciding factors:

1) The technology (nothing like it)
2) The software - seems that the games for it are something people will actually use, rather than the same old shoot-em-up stuff
3) Optional accessories - they keep coming out with new ones


----------



## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

shenefie said:


> yes, the wii is probably good for the kids. but remember, for the kids. nintendo has taken the track of only making games for the 14 and under crowd. i bought the wii when it came out and now it collects dust because there are no real 'grown-up' new games out. wii sports and wii fit are fun, but beyond that, there isnt much if you are over 14. ps3 has the advantages of having the blu-ray player, which is a plus if you have a HDTV for sure! so i guess it really depends how old your kids are and what kind of games they like. oh, and ps3 just released playstation home, but isnt really a place for kiddies. lotsa foul language (if you use a headset) and some of the people are kinda rude and crude. but it is fun. little big planet is a fun game for kids and adults. hope this helps!


Mario Kart?


----------



## jlast01 (Nov 19, 2008)

We have PS3, 360, and Wii. For your kids, definately the Wii.

360 does have some good games for kids too, but Wii is best for that age group.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

shenefie said:


> yes, the wii is probably good for the kids. but remember, for the kids. nintendo has taken the track of only making games for the 14 and under crowd. i bought the wii when it came out and now it collects dust because there are no real 'grown-up' new games out.


WOW...that's interesting, as we came to the exact opposite conculsion after seeing the latest inventory of Wii games (adult and kids).

With no teens left in the house, and without condoning all those "kill" games that are out there....the decision came down to XBox and Wii...with Wii taking the prize.

There surely must be a reason they cannot make them fast enough to keep Wii inventories in stock, while they can't give away the PS3's and Xbox's in our local BB and CC stores.

But in the end....I'd say narrow your choices to 2 platforms, and check out the game inventories and accesories. Get what is right for you in your household.


----------



## Zepes (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm getting the Wii for my kids ( ages 4&6) mostly because Call of Duty World at War is now available for that platform.


----------



## nick58 (Mar 12, 2007)

I'll cast my vote for the Wii. Bought one because my wife wanted Wii fit. Of course she never plays that game but plays Mario Kart constantly. We have a 5 yr old grandaughter that plays when she comes over. After a little practice she is actually getting to be pretty good.


----------



## jadebox (Dec 14, 2004)

shenefie said:


> yes, the wii is probably good for the kids. but remember, for the kids. nintendo has taken the track of only making games for the 14 and under crowd.


They've started releasing games with a "Mature" ERSB rating such as "Call of Duty: World at War" and "Resident Evil 4."

For someone who isn't "into" video games, the Wii is an excellent choice. Most of the games are the kind anyone can sit down (oops ... _stand up_) and play without a long learning curve. Many are the kind you can play for just a few minutes at a time.

We pull out our Wii when we have visitors over since it is an excellent party game.

-- Roger


----------



## russdog (Aug 1, 2006)

Wii has the best bang-for-buck entertainment value for kids. Virtually all of it's advantage is due to it's cool motion-based controller that lets you swing an imaginary tennis racket (or golf club or whatever). It also leads to people accidentally throwing the controller thru the TV screen when it slips out of their hand. (Really. No joke. But this is not a problem if people remember to use the wrist strap.) While it's controller is best, everything else about it is the most primitive of the three. It is the least-capable technically (re: amazing graphics, etc.).

The PS3 has the greatest capability and will be state-of-the-art for a long time (as technology goes). Sony is losing their shirt on it, reportedly losing money on each one. This is because, while it costs more to buy, it costs way more to make. It has an almost-super-computer inside. Sony is taking a long-term-investment view of this thing re: what it sees as the upcoming Media Center wars. At the moment, it's the world's best Blu Ray player if you care about that. While it also has motion-based controllers, the motion part is less advanced than the Wii controllers. There are working prototypes of cool PS3 controllers that actually out-do the cool Wii controllers, but who knows when they will actually be out as products. (You can find videos of demos of it via google.) It has built in WiFi for connecting to your home wireless network, and Sony's network for online play with people elsewhere is free (the XBOX one is not free). Plus, Sony is just now starting their "Home" network-place, which is a virtual social world that people can play around in (whatever that means, I don't really know). Initially there were fewer special PS-3-only games, but that is changing. LittleBigPlanet is a truly wonderful game for kids of all ages, and it's PS3-only. If you wanna put a larger HDD in it, you can use a standard laptop HDD and do it yourself in a couple minutes; for an XBOX, you can't, you have to buy expensive proprietary parts. (For car racing, I'm an F1-fan, and the best F1 game is the 2006 one for PS3. A year or two ago, there was a new F1 driver who did better than expected at tracks he'd never raced on before. When they asked him how he did so well on new-to-him tracks, he said he learned the tracks ahead of time by playing the PS3 F1 video game ;-)

The XBOX 360 is more advanced than the Wii but less than the PS3. It's network use is fee-based, PS3's is free. Initial advantage in games for XBOX is fading as PS3 catches up. I've got nothing against it (and have an old non-360 XBOX which I was perfectly happy with). I think it lacks both the Wii's strength and the PS3's strength. It's perfectly fine, but IMO there is nothing special about it. (Some people will get mad about statements like that.)

Be warned that some people live on their game consoles, and there are intense opinion wars especially between fans of PS3 and XBOX. Some people take it *way* too seriously ;-)

As you can see from my comments, I prefer the PS3. But I'm not a kid. Got one for less than $250 via $150 signup deal for Sony-Chase credit card plus 5% online cashback offer.

Lately, I've been fooling around with downloading old B&W TV shows from the era of my childhood (77 Sunset Strip) to my laptop, and then streaming them to the PS3 which plays them on my TV. My wife thinks this is bizarre behavior.


----------



## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

russdog said:


> My wife thinks this is bizarre behavior.


!rolling This one really hit home, as many of us tech geeks can relate.


----------



## kocuba (Dec 29, 2006)

I unmothballed my old PS1 from the basement and bought a couple of used kids games from GameStop, for my 4 and 6 year olds. Saved me a fortunate and they really don't know the difference.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Best bang for the buck - especially with a family - is definitely the Wii in my opinion.

It may not be the most "powerful" of the three, but it is TONS of fun. I'm in my 30s and I enjoy it every bit as much as my 4 year old son. My wife, who has never been interested in any of the gaming consoles I've had in the past even enjoys the wii.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Wii... No question about it...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

shenefie said:


> yes, the wii is probably good for the kids. but remember, for the kids. nintendo has taken the track of only making games for the 14 and under crowd. i bought the wii when it came out and now it collects dust because there are no real 'grown-up' new games out. wii sports and wii fit are fun, but beyond that, there isnt much if you are over 14.


I have to disagree with this. I have never seen a game system more versatile than the Wii... My wife and I (in our mid 20's) play multiple times a week... and I have family members (3, 10, 12, 16, 34, 37, 65) that all have one and play on a regular basis as well...

I also don't really consider games like Tiger Woods '09, Call of Duty, and Madden '09 (three of my faves) as aimed at the < 14 crowd... 

My PS3 is the one collecting dust...


----------



## Fluthy (Feb 9, 2008)

I have a PS2, Xbox 360, and Wii. For small kids the Wii is probably the best for gaming. If you want to do more than gaming, stream video, NetFlix, chat... I would choose the 360. The PS3 would be option if you wanted Blu-Ray, but it cost much more than the other 2.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

AirRocker said:


> I have to disagree with this. I have never seen a game system more versatile than the Wii... My wife and I (in our mid 20's) play multiple times a week... and I have family members (3, 10, 12, 16, 34, 37, 65) that all have one and play on a regular basis as well...
> 
> I also don't really consider games like *Tiger Woods '09*, Call of Duty, and Madden '09 (three of my faves) as aimed at the < 14 crowd...
> 
> My PS3 is the one collecting dust...


Tiger Woods on the wii is a blast!

I don't have nearly enough time to play golf in real life, unfortunately, so it's nice to throw in TW09 and bang out a round. Plus, I don't play nearly as well in real life as I do on TW, so that makes it even cooler!


----------



## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Buy a Sony PS2 - used.

Zillions of cheap games, and your kids should be happy.


----------



## Zepes (Dec 27, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Buy a Sony PS2 - used.
> 
> Zillions of cheap games, and your kids should be happy.


I got a PS2 I'll sell


----------



## Silverado_11 (Apr 18, 2008)

I would go with Ps3 due to it having the Blu-Ray dvd format..Plus I really enjoy it. Especially Call of Duty 4 (Modern Warfare)


----------



## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

Thanks to everyone for all your advice and suggestions. 
We finally decided to go with a Wii. The biggest reason for our choice was the number of people we know who own a Wii that we can borrow games from


----------



## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

Since you're talking young children, I'd have to recommend the Wii. That seems to be the Wii's target market.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

fluffybear said:


> Thanks to everyone for all your advice and suggestions.
> We finally decided to go with a Wii. The biggest reason for our choice was the number of people we know who own a Wii that we can borrow games from


I'm way late to this thread... but since you mentioned the old Color Computer...

I started on a TRS-80 Model I, but my first actual programming experience came from a Coco.

Have you heard of/seen the MAME and MESS emulators available? MAME emulates arcade systems, while MESS emulates computer systems. The emulators are free, support files can be hard to find sometimes though... but the end-result with something like MESS is I use it to emulate my old Coco and Commodore 64 on my PC and run programs I remember.

I even recently wrote a quick version of Breakout in Basic for the Coco on my emulator. If you still remember much about your Coco it could be an easy way to introduce young kids to programming with a simpler interface than modern computer programming.


----------



## roadrunner1782 (Sep 28, 2008)

I would suggest the Nintendo Wii for kids that age. I promise you and your wife will enjoy it too! I own one and it's worlds of fun!


----------



## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

Tip: no matter what console you get, be sure to get Rock Band or Guitar World Tour with it.


----------



## Swheat (Aug 10, 2005)

Just as an aside, I took my WII up to my brother-in-laws a couple of weeks ago and both he and and his wife loved it. He's 62 and she's 59. I did not realize how much until he told me on the phone last noght that he went out and bought one. The only games we had with us were WII Play and WII Sports.


----------



## jwebb1970 (Oct 3, 2007)

barryb said:


> Tip: no matter what console you get, be sure to get Rock Band or Guitar World Tour with it.


I'd personally lean more towards Rock Band 2, esp on the Wii - surprisingly (mainly becasue it seems Wii is console of choice here).

Both games now have DLC for Wii, but RB2's catalog is already larger/more varied. Gets updated every Tuesday. So far, weekly additions have been RB catalog tracks that 360/PS3 users had access to in RB1 - simutaneous new releases on all consoles will happen later this year. Harmonix has stated that (hopefully) by the end of 2009, every RB DLC track will be available to Wii users. Only downside is that there is no way to import the RB1 disc tracks onto RB2 for Wii. While unlikely, there was some chatter that HMX may offer some of those tunes to Wii users as DLC (2 RB1 disc tracks already have been - but those were among the 5 bonus tracks the Wii edition got that were already DLC for PS3/360).

If you already have GH;World Tour, those instruments will work w/ RB2 - so only need the disc. RB1 or 2 gear, OTOH, WILL NOT work with GH on Wii.

Keep in mind too that 3rd party devs seem to finally be paying attention to the Wii. Several titles are coming that look every promising - both in being more "next gen" than usual & not being minigame infested titles.


----------



## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

I have a ps2 but would love to get a ps3 but have no room for it. the only game i play is Tourist Trophy,love RG500 at Laguna Seca.


----------



## Steve615 (Feb 5, 2006)

fluffybear said:


> Thanks to everyone for all your advice and suggestions.
> We finally decided to go with a Wii. The biggest reason for our choice was the number of people we know who own a Wii that we can borrow games from


Congrats on the purchase of the Wii. 
The console is also compatible with some,if not all Gamecube discs too.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I am late to this one too. Alright.. You have a 4 and 6 year old.. So who voted for xbox and Playstation?. For 4 and 6 year olds I believe this choice is obvious and shocked at the number of Xbox/PS3 votes.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Ron - I voted XBOX, but I missed the age of the children. Wii is obviously the #1 choice for them.


----------



## Sackchamp56 (Nov 10, 2006)

because they are so young, the Wii is probably a good fit. Nintendo seems to be the one shooting for that demographic. There is very little adult content for it however, and the graphics are very poor. It does have the advantage of the innovative control scheme, but it feels like a gimmick to me after a few hours. Most of the games by developers other than first party Nintendo games are complete crap. That being said, not many 4 year olds are considered hardcore gamers and likely wont care about graphics and lack of depth of the content. So its probably your best choice. By the time they are old enough there will probably be a fancy new next gen system out anyway.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Actually the average player does not care about the graphics. The average player won't play xBox or PS3 because it is too complex. Don't get me wrong. Great gaming experiences but the Mom and Dads of the world are not drawn to the amazing graphics. it is game play and fun and that is why the Wii has dominated the gaming platform. 

If you are really into graphics or into gaming and you are a teenager those gaming consoles have a lot of appeal. For the average joe that wants to have fun, Wii definitely feeds that crowd if you are 60 or 6. I would never have gotten Grandma to play on the PS3 or xBox but i got here driving a Wii Kart around a track. 

All three consoles have their pluses and minuses however for the under 10 crowd, My opinion is there is no choice but the Wii. When we went through our process I had my heart set on a PS3.. Did not even now what a Wii was. But after seeing it in a Mall during when they were really hard to get, I came to the conclusions there that for my 7 year old and to have the best chance of involving the whole family Wii was the way to go.


----------



## Game Fan (Sep 8, 2007)

Wii, Wii, Wii, all the way home. Sorry! Couldn't resist.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Game Fan said:


> Wii, Wii, Wii, all the way home. Sorry! Couldn't resist.


Yup yup yup....all the way home...

Congrats Fluffybear......enjoy!


----------



## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Ron Barry said:


> Actually the average player does not care about the graphics. The average player won't play xBox or PS3 because it is too complex. Don't get me wrong. Great gaming experiences but the Mom and Dads of the world are not drawn to the amazing graphics. it is game play and fun and that is why the Wii has dominated the gaming platform.
> 
> If you are really into graphics or into gaming and you are a teenager those gaming consoles have a lot of appeal. For the average joe that wants to have fun, Wii definitely feeds that crowd if you are 60 or 6. I would never have gotten Grandma to play on the PS3 or xBox but i got here driving a Wii Kart around a track.
> 
> All three consoles have their pluses and minuses however for the under 10 crowd, My opinion is there is no choice but the Wii. When we went through our process I had my heart set on a PS3.. Did not even now what a Wii was. But after seeing it in a Mall during when they were really hard to get, I came to the conclusions there that for my 7 year old and to have the best chance of involving the whole family Wii was the way to go.


I consider myself fairly tech-saavy but gaming never appealed to me until the Wii. It's just fun on the Wii with nothing to figure out! Sure the graphics aren't stellar but they're pretty good. I can sit down and play for a few minutes and I don't feel like it dominates my life, like some of these role-playing games on other systems. It's easy and fun.


----------



## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Actually the average player does not care about the graphics. The average player won't play xBox or PS3 because it is too complex. Don't get me wrong. Great gaming experiences but the Mom and Dads of the world are not drawn to the amazing graphics.


Speak for yourself Ron.  Nothing like F1 in full 1080. I am all about the graphics.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I was waiting for you to pop in Jason.  Yeah.. but like I said above. You are a different market and definitely not the mass market. I too love graphics and it was tough for me to go Wii, but when I looked at the rest of the mix in the family the choice was obvious. Perhaps I will eventually go PS3 also, but if I did it would be for me and I know it would not have the appeal to my Son and Wife that the Wii does. Heck.. When I get my Wii and also got a PS3 at the same time (When they were impossible to get) and ended up selling it for cost because I came to the realization.


----------



## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

Actually I'm considering one of the new Nintendo DSi handheld consoles coming in April. Would love to get a PS3, xBox or Wii but I just don't have the room.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

We have a Wii! Mario Kart Wii ROCKS!


----------



## IcedOmega13 (Mar 3, 2008)

I would say it would depend on the age of the kids. There is potentially alot more mature content out their for say the PS3 or Xbox 360. However if you have teenagers the wii would probably turn out to be more of a fad item and go unused. IMo far to few compelling games for the Wii just alot of flailing your arms around.


----------



## TSR (Feb 7, 2009)

fluffybear said:


> The wife and I have discussing for sometime about getting a game system for the kids (not necessarily for Christmas) but neither one of us have used one nor owned one. The only thing ever hooked to my TV which could play games was my old Radio Shack Color Computer.
> 
> Anyway, we could really use the advice of those who have more experience with them. The system is primarily for the children, Ages 4 and 6 but mom and dad might want to use it from time to time as well.


The Wii is a great choice for kids and a decent choice for adults, but the PS3 IS an investment as, to my knowledge, they are not going to be putting out another PlayStation for another 8 years or so, so you know you won't be buying another console for at least that long.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TSR said:


> The Wii is a great choice for kids and a decent choice for adults, but the PS3 IS an investment as, to my knowledge, they are not going to be putting out another PlayStation for another 8 years or so, so you know you won't be buying another console for at least that long.


The Playstation 4 is already on the drawing board, and rumored to be released in 2010. The biggest changes in it are supposedly upgraded network/Internet connectivity, support for downloadable HD content, and improved audio codec support.


----------



## ncxcstud (Apr 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The Playstation 4 is already on the drawing board, and rumored to be released in 2010. The biggest changes in it are supposedly upgraded network/Internet connectivity, support for downloadable HD content, and improved audio codec support.


there better be more to it than that...


----------



## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

IcedOmega13 said:


> I would say it would depend on the age of the kids. There is potentially alot more mature content out their for say the PS3 or Xbox 360. However if you have teenagers the wii would probably turn out to be more of a fad item and go unused. IMo far to few compelling games for the Wii just alot of flailing your arms around.


We have three kids in our household -- ages 11,14 and 17. With both a Wii and a PS/3, although they might play the PS/3 more often, the Wii gets a lot of play from all three of them. The Wii has a hidden advantage in that you can also play Gamecube games on it as well. There are quite a few M Rated games for the Wii, if that's your interest. Also, controllers like the Nintendo Wavebird wireless controller work just fine with the Wii.


----------



## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

I am EXTREMELY late to the party but let me give me 2 cents

1) I have bought and used all 3 for years now.
2) I found the Wii to be a LOT of fun but it got old quickly. I played all the great games from Fit to Smash Brothers to all that.....but I still found myself bored after awhile. If someone is looking for long-term happiness, I just don't see the Wii as the answer.
3) I love both the PS3/360 and I would say that those torn between the two should look at the games list and decide for yourself. Both systems have great exclusives and side-perks even though fanboys of each swear the other stinks for whatever reason. 

I am a HUGE fan of Killzone 2 and some other PS3 exclusives so that is my #1 choice but I also think XBox Live is one of a kind 

I doubt someone will get a new system and be disappointed so whatever you choose, you will be happy


----------



## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

If you want a toy that will grow old in a few months, get a Wii. If you want a bug prone MS POS, get an Xbox. If you want the best of everything and a blu-ray player and multi-media home entertainment system, get a PS3.


----------



## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The Playstation 4 is already on the drawing board, and rumored to be released in 2010. The biggest changes in it are supposedly upgraded network/Internet connectivity, support for downloadable HD content, and improved audio codec support.


Rumor. Get a PS3, upgrade the hard drive and have right now the ultimate home entertainment system. I have a 500 GB drive in mine with 10,000 MP3s on it, 10,000 images, and 30 hours of home HD video. Not to mention its a blu-ray player and great gaming system. It already supports and is doing HD downloadable content from the PS3 store. Tons of titles already available including TV shows. Plus it has a good internet browser. Supports most audio codecs already and most of this is software upgradeable.


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

The new UFC game is awsome for PS3.


----------



## Brandon428 (Mar 21, 2007)

All 3 games systems are worth having,but if I could only choose 1 than I'd get a PS3.


----------



## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> and rumored to be released in 2010.


The chances of the PS4 being released before 2012 range from 0% to 0%


----------



## Brandon428 (Mar 21, 2007)

DawgLink said:


> The chances of the PS4 being released before 2012 range from 0% to 0%


It was supposed to be a 10 year console but a PS4 within the next 2 years is possible. The PS4 will be built on the same Cell broadband processor technology so it will be much more affordable than the 600 introductory price of the launch PS3. The PS3 however has a lot of untapped potential left! PS4 by 2012 possible but not probable.


----------



## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

Brandon428 said:


> It was supposed to be a 10 year console but a PS4 within the next 2 years is possible. The PS4 will be built on the same Cell broadband processor technology so it will be much more affordable than the 600 introductory price of the launch PS3. The PS3 however has a lot of untapped potential left! PS4 by 2012 possible but not probable.


Never say never but I see not a single shred of evidence that points to a PS4 within even 3-4 years. Everything I see points to Sony continuing their PS3 push for years down the road just as the PS2 was successfully done.

They are one of the most stubborn people around and will push their PS3 on until it is dead and done even with the new 360 released whenever it is (but before the PS4).

The only people putting the PS4 in 2012 or before are usually blogs with their rumors.


----------

