# Is it my TV or the 622?



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well actually I also got this with my 921 so I suspect it is the TV. I have a Sony KV-32HS420 4x3 set. What I am seeing is that if I go 480p with 4x3 #1 I get the picture a bit squashed and then when I stretch all iss good on SD material. This works just great. However, when I do 1080i and 720p with 4x3 #1 I get some major horizontal squeeze. This is using component. 

With HDMI, even 480p with 4x3 #1 gives me a squashed picture. Using 4x3 #2 does not help. There is a setting on my TV called 16:9 enhanced, I am wondering if this is getting confused and squashing things.

See attached pictures.
IMG_5009F - 720p on component
IMG-5010F - 480p on component
IMG-5013F - 480p on HDMI
IMG-5006F - 1080i on component


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

Ron Barry said:


> Well actually I also got this with my 921 so I suspect it is the TV. I have a Sony KV-32HS420 4x3 set. What I am seeing is that if I go 480p with 4x3 #1 I get the picture a bit squashed and then when I stretch all iss good on SD material. This works just great. However, when I do 1080i and 720p with 4x3 #1 I get some major horizontal squeeze. This is using component.
> 
> With HDMI, even 480p with 4x3 #1 gives me a squashed picture. Using 4x3 #2 does not help. There is a setting on my TV called 16:9 enhanced, I am wondering if this is getting confused and squashing things.
> 
> ...


Ron,
I don't know if it's the same on your Sony, but I know if I turn off the 16:9 output setting in either the 622 or 921, and select either of the 4x3 #1 or #2 settings, this restores the ability of the aspect ratio switch to the Sony's.
When I have the output on the 622/921 set to 16:9, the Sony's aspect ratio settings are disabled.
All of this on component, as my Sony's do not have HDMI inputs.
I leave the 622/921 set to 1080i/16:9 and use the receiver's aspect ratio switch.
I have a letterbox SD TV fed off the modulated output on the 921, which I have to switch the 921 to SD to view, and if I select other than 1080i on the 921, I get a similar squashed effect on the letterbox SD feed.

Not sure it this is any help, but maybe


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

It almost seems that when my Sony sees 720p/1080i 4x3 it want to make it 16x9. I am starting to believe it is the 16x9 enhancement feature on my Sony and there are only two options available (Auto/On). There is no way to turn it off.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

Ron Barry said:


> It almost seems that when my Sony sees 720p/1080i 4x3 it want to make it 16x9. I am starting to believe it is the 16x9 enhancement feature on my Sony and there are only two options available (Auto/On). There is no way to turn it off.


I sent you a PM with the name/email of someone who can probably answer your question about the Sony.


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## Mike Johnson (Jan 16, 2005)

Ron Barry said:


> It almost seems that when my Sony sees 720p/1080i 4x3 it want to make it 16x9.


Ron, you are actually on to something here. If you use the ATSC standards, there are 18 defined picture formats and all of the 1080i and 720p formats are 16x9. There are no valid HD picture formats that are 4x3.

I had a problem on my 16x9 Sony when I first got my 942. The 942 would sometimes ID the output video as "1080i 4x3" and my Sony would refuse to display it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

thanks kdg.. Got your PM. I will send the guy an email.


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## ASOT (Apr 7, 2006)

Interesting... I was just playing with that on my Sony today also.

I have the Sony KDSR50XBR1 using component, which has it's own scaler too.

Here is what I came up with when messing with the settings in the VIP622:

*Setting* ...... ; ....*Result*

[1080i - 16x9] ; HD=16x9, SD=4x3
[1080i - 4x3#1] ; HD=16x9, SD=4x3
[1080i - 4x3#2] ; HD=Letterbox, SD=full screen

[720p - 16x9] ; HD=16x9, SD=4x3
[720p - 4x3#1] ; HD=16x9, SD=4x3
[720p - 4x3#2] ; HD=Letterbox, SD=full screen

[480p - 16x9] ; HD=4x3, SD=Squished sides (big black side bars)
[480p - 4x3#1] ; HD=4x3, SD=Squished sides (big black side bars)
[480p - 4x3#2] ; HD=4x3 Letterbox, SD=full screen

[480i - 16x9] ; HD=4x3, SD=Squished sides (big black side bars)
[480i - 4x3#1] ; HD=4x3, SD=Squished sides (big black side bars)
[480i - 4x3#2] ; HD=4x3 Letterbox, SD=full screen

So option 4x3#2 is like an auto zoom in SD and when you watch a HD channel it letterboxes it.

I couldn't tell any difference in PQ between 1080i and 720p... but I think my set upscales all to 1080p anyway. So there may not have been a difference.

But the 480 inputs were bad. Not sure whats going on there... still confused about all this. My DVD player outputs 480i and lools great on my set... 16x9 letterboxed. So I assumed that a 480i output from the 622 would do just as good.

Maybe kdg454 is right in that the 622 will disable the Sony's scaler and spits out a picture that it thinks you want. ??

Hope this helps a bit.

Ron


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

ASOT

When you are 4x3 #1 with 1080i/720p. What does your guide look like. Does it look like the pictures I posted. Is is squashed. With 480p, I get the same thing SD looks squached and if I strech it fills the screen. 16x9 fills the screen and if I stretch it looks normal but ofcourse I clip out the sides.


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## ASOT (Apr 7, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> ASOT
> 
> When you are 4x3 #1 with 1080i/720p. What does your guide look like. Does it look like the pictures I posted. Is is squashed. With 480p, I get the same thing SD looks squached and if I strech it fills the screen. 16x9 fills the screen and if I stretch it looks normal but ofcourse I clip out the sides.


My 1080i/720p at the 4x3#1 setting look normal. That is, HD looks normal at 16x9 and SD is 4x3. Your pics look like it is letterboxed on both (bars on top and bottom).

When I say squished... I mean that it is squished from the sides (Big black bars on the sides). My squishing only happens on the 480 settings while looking at a HD channel.

Your letterboxing at the 1080i/720p ; 4x3#1 setting, may be normal because you do not have a 16x9 set... hence the letterboxing? It is taking a 1080i or 730p signal... thinking to itself. "aha a 16 x 9 picture on a 4x3 set". So it letterboxes it so you see all the content?

Ron


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

ASOT,

Is yours a 4x3 set or 16x9?


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

Your results, for component, are in line with what my neighbor's Sony 36" 4x3 TV does. He doesn't have HDMI on his TV, but via component, if you send any signal about 480p the Sony TV will automatically assume your sending a 16x9 signal and go into 16x9 mode, on the TV. Basically we found that he had to either set the 622 to 480p 4x3, or 720p/1080i 16x9 on the 622. We could not find a way to disable the automatic 16x9 setup on the TV for resolutions above 480p.


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## ASOT (Apr 7, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> ASOT,
> 
> Is yours a 4x3 set or 16x9?


16x9 HD. It has the HDMI inputs, but I have not gotten a cable yet, so I using component. This set upscales all incoming signals to 1080p.

Ron


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Thanks for all the input guys. I think I am starting to get a grip to what the issue is..

Here is what I think is happening. Mikes post with what is considered HD supports my thoughts. I am not sure what the 622 is outputting in the horizontal when you set it to 1080i and 4x3 #1. But seems that my Sony looks at the virtical resolution and says 1080i so it must be 16x9 and squashes it. It might be related to the 16x9 enhancement feature. I am going to create a general poll to see what other people are seeing that have 4x3 HD TVs. 

This might be expected behavior, but to me it does not seem correct.


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

Just a question. (OK, another question. ) When you change to 1080i on SD channels, do you leave your receiver in 'Stretch' Mode? 

'Stretch' will fill the entire width of the screen for SD channels when the receiver is set at 1080i. 'Normal' will still fill the screen on the menu, but the SD channels will have black bars on all 4 sides, when you're using 'Normal' instead of 'Stretch' on the receiver. (Then to fill the screen you would need to use the Sony TV's Zoom feature, which is a true zoom, no distortion.)


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## ASOT (Apr 7, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> But seems that my Sony looks at the virtical resolution and says 1080i so it must be 16x9 and squashes it.


Yes, I agree with this. When you output 1080i with 4x3 #1 on a 4x3 set, it letterboxes it (bars on top and bottom). It shows all the content of the show... like a widescreen DVD would.

Maybe this is the function of the #1 setting? Letterboxing to widescreen so you dont miss any content. I am assuming that you understand that a 4x3 set is missing content unless it is letterboxed. So by using the #1 setting you are setting it to display the whole 16x9 movie and to do that it must display it via letterboxing. Your not really squashing it... you are seeing a whole 16x9 pic on a 4x3 screen.

You should get the same result using 720p 4x3 #1 and it may even look better as it may be closer to your native tv resolution? Less down scaling?

Now with the 1080i with 4x3 #2... ??? Kinda backwords... It takes SD and zooms it to full screen and letterboxes HD on my 16x9 set.

Ron


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## ASOT (Apr 7, 2006)

Laverne said:


> Just a question. (OK, another question. ) When you change to 1080i on SD channels, do you leave your receiver in 'Stretch' Mode?
> 
> 'Stretch' will fill the entire width of the screen for SD channels when the receiver is set at 1080i. 'Normal' will still fill the screen on the menu, but the SD channels will have black bars on all 4 sides, when you're using 'Normal' instead of 'Stretch' on the receiver. (Then to fill the screen you would need to use the Sony TV's Zoom feature, which is a true zoom, no distortion.)


Black bars on top and bottom are Letterboxing... Black bars on sides are SD.

So if you are seeing bars on all sides, you are SD and letterboxing, that is... a 16x9 (complete picture with no cropping) in Standard Def.

You can zoom this to then fill the screen, but depending on your set, I believe you will distort it some.

Another point... while watching a HD program OTA, and a commercial comes on, some will be SD (bars on the sides) and some will be letterboxed/SD (bars on all sides).

Hope this helps with your question. I usually dont use the zoom too much.

Ron


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

ASOT,

I already know all that. I didn't have a question for myself.

Zoom on my TV doesn't distort, I've checked. I just always use 480p (4x3 #1, Stretch) instead of my TV's Zoom for SD because of a banner placement issue.


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## ASOT (Apr 7, 2006)

Laverne said:


> Assot,
> 
> I already know all that. I didn't have a question for myself.
> 
> Zoom on my TV doesn't distort, I've checked. I just always use 480p (4x3 #1, Stretch) instead of my TV's Zoom for SD because of a banner placement issue.


Ok, cool.

Sometimes I think I overdo it.

So to answer your question... No, I dont use zoom on SD content.

I have a 16x9 HD set and the 622 outputs at 1080i. The signals are then upscaled to 1080p and for SD... it is displayed with side bars. My Sony set has a couple different types of zoom, but I dont use it much.

Ron


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

I suppose I should have clarified that I have the same exact TV as Ron. He knows that from my PMs, but I guess not everyone else does.

I believe the questions he is raising are WRT 4x3 TVs specifically.


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## ASOT (Apr 7, 2006)

Laverne said:


> (Then to fill the screen you would need to use the Sony TV's Zoom feature, which is a true zoom, no distortion.)


So when you use this "true" zoom feature... you are really zooming in, and losing parts of the picture?

Ron


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

Well, just the overscan. I'd only use that on an SD channel with the receiver set to 1080i. 

But most of what I watch on sat is SD, so I just leave it set at 480p, and only switch to an HD resolution when I'm watching an HD channel. That simplifies things for my family also.

And the other reason I don't normally use the TV's Zoom and 1080i for SD, as I mentioned before, is that the banner is actually slightly off-center of the pic, so when I center up the picture according to the banner, the picture is actually off-center, as can be evidenced by the cutting off of the logos. Somehow with it just set to 480p, it's not as noticeable. Maybe the Zoom zooms in a little more. Yes, true zoom, just like a camera.

BTW, one of my best friends is the poster formerly known as The 811 Guy ( ), and I've asked him if there is any remedy for the banner being slightly off-center and he said no. Short of getting E* to fix it, there isn't. And they have much bigger fish to fry.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

ASOT said:


> Yes, I agree with this. When you output 1080i with 4x3 #1 on a 4x3 set, it letterboxes it (bars on top and bottom). It shows all the content of the show... like a widescreen DVD would.
> 
> Maybe this is the function of the #1 setting? Letterboxing to widescreen so you dont miss any content. I am assuming that you understand that a 4x3 set is missing content unless it is letterboxed. So by using the #1 setting you are setting it to display the whole 16x9 movie and to do that it must display it via letterboxing. Your not really squashing it... you are seeing a whole 16x9 pic on a 4x3 screen.
> 
> ...


Once again.. thanks for the input. Anyone with a 622 that is using a 4x3 set that does not have a Sony have any experience with 1080i 4x3 #1 and how the guide looks on the screen?

Let me go back and look at this. The point I was making is that what I would have expected when setting my output to 1080i 4x3 #1 would be that my EPG and my Dish menu stuff would fill the screen (Similar to what happens with 480p and 4x3 #1). This does not happen and everhthing gets squished in the horizontal.

If I go 480p 4x3 #1, my HD content is squished horizontal to fit the 4x3 format and my 4x3 content shows bars on left and right. I can then use the stretch mode of the 622 and get a good 4x3 pictures and get a clipped 16x9.

in 1080i 4x3 #1 mode both the SD content and HD content have bars on the top. Have to check to see if the 4x3 has bars on the left and right also. My expectation here is that the menu and guides would be sent in a 4x3 format and be properly rendered like the 480p configuration but this is not the case. Like I said a few posts back, if the 622 is sending this stuff over (by stuff I mean the guide view) in a 4x3 format as the configuration would suggest the Sony takes it and see it as 1080i and displays it as it would HD format thus getting the squished guide.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

Interesting info. You've been doing a bunch of playing w/ your set. I have to tell you thought the sony you have is a 1080 I unit. I checked Sony's website and it on scales to 1080 I.

Interesting... I was just playing with that on my Sony today also.

I have the Sony KDSR50XBR1 using component, which has it's own scaler too.

Here is what I came up with when messing with the settings in the VIP622:

*Setting* ...... ; ....*Result*

[1080i - 16x9] ; HD=16x9, SD=4x3
[1080i - 4x3#1] ; HD=16x9, SD=4x3
[1080i - 4x3#2] ; HD=Letterbox, SD=full screen

[720p - 16x9] ; HD=16x9, SD=4x3
[720p - 4x3#1] ; HD=16x9, SD=4x3
[720p - 4x3#2] ; HD=Letterbox, SD=full screen

[480p - 16x9] ; HD=4x3, SD=Squished sides (big black side bars)
[480p - 4x3#1] ; HD=4x3, SD=Squished sides (big black side bars)
[480p - 4x3#2] ; HD=4x3 Letterbox, SD=full screen

[480i - 16x9] ; HD=4x3, SD=Squished sides (big black side bars)
[480i - 4x3#1] ; HD=4x3, SD=Squished sides (big black side bars)
[480i - 4x3#2] ; HD=4x3 Letterbox, SD=full screen

So option 4x3#2 is like an auto zoom in SD and when you watch a HD channel it letterboxes it.

I couldn't tell any difference in PQ between 1080i and 720p... but I think my set upscales all to 1080p anyway. So there may not have been a difference.

But the 480 inputs were bad. Not sure whats going on there... still confused about all this. My DVD player outputs 480i and lools great on my set... 16x9 letterboxed. So I assumed that a 480i output from the 622 would do just as good.

Maybe kdg454 is right in that the 622 will disable the Sony's scaler and spits out a picture that it thinks you want. ??

Hope this helps a bit.

Ron[/QUOTE]


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## ASOT (Apr 7, 2006)

whatchel1 said:


> Interesting info. You've been doing a bunch of playing w/ your set. I have to tell you thought the sony you have is a 1080 I unit. I checked Sony's website and it on scales to 1080 I.


[/QUOTE]

Actually it scales everything to 1080p. It will not accept a 1080p input, but it scales everything to 1080p.

I believe the new sets coming out will have 1080p inputs.

Ron


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well last night I checked again with 1080i 4x3 #1. When I have the 622 in normal. 16x9 content takes up the full picture horizontal and 4x3 shows bars both on all sides. So with 480p 4x3 #1 and You get bars on the sides and the top and bottom fill the picture. With 1080i 4x3 #1 you get bars on the side and also on the top and bottom. 

Time for a poll.. Thing I have beaten this one to death.


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## lifterguy (Dec 22, 2003)

Ron Barry said:


> Once again.. thanks for the input. Anyone with a 622 that is using a 4x3 set that does not have a Sony have any experience with 1080i 4x3 #1 and how the guide looks on the screen?


I also have a 4:3 HD set. Mine is a Zenith (LG). My set gives me 4 picture options:
"Set by Program", "16:9", "4:3", and "Zoom". It has a ASTC tuner, so in the past, when I would watch my 522 or off-air programing using the built in tuner, I would usually use "Set by Program." That would give me a full screen picture for SD programing from the 522, and letter box for HD programming off-air. I would then use the TV's Zoom setting when the local digital stations broadcast SD programming to avoid the "postage stamp" picture with black on all sides.

When I got the 622, I at first thought that the 1080i and 4:3 #1 setting was screwed up because it made the picture look oddly compressed when I set my tv to "Set by Program." I tried some of the other settings, but found myself losing part of the program guide or having to constantly change in and out of Zoom mode. Finally I discovered that everything worked perfectly if I set the 622 to 1080i and 4:3 #1, and set my tv to 4:3 (a mode I had never used before). With this combination, the program guide is full screen with nothing missing. SD programming from the 622 is full screen. HD programming is letter boxed. And if I watch SD programming from my local digital channels, I just used the format button on the dish remote to zoom the picture to full screen to avoid the postage stamp effect. This is exactly what I want - very little messing around with the picture format when I change channels.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

LIfterguy.. I created a poll in the General HD section. Would appreciate if if you could participate.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=56446


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