# Interference from Dish install? See Pic



## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

When I hook up my Olevia 747i to either my HR21, or my Stand alone Tivo via a component cable, I get moving horizontal red and green lines on my TV. I had the HR21 hooked up via HDMI and it looked fine, it's just component that results in the lines (see attached pic). I have a long component run from the HR21 in the living room into the bedroom where I just moved the 747i to. I previously had a 42" Philips in the bedroom. It (the Philips) did and still looks fine with the exact same component feed. I can literally unplug the feed from the Olevia (with lines) and plug into the Philips and not get the lines.
Here's the weird thing, if I unplug the 2 feeds from the dish to the HR21, the lines go away. There seems to be some kind of interference when the HR21 is hooked up to the dish. I have not tried unhooking the dish feed to the tivo to see if it removes the lines. I assume it would, but will check tonight.

This may not be the right forum, but it does involve an HR21 and since the problem seems to crop up ONLY when the dish is hooked up, I thought I'd run it by you guys.

Thanks for any thoughts.
John


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Looks like a grounding issue.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Looks like a grounding issue.


aka "ground loop" [60 cycles on the ground of the analog component cables]


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

How about RFI...

How close are the coax cables to the component cables?

If "close", can they be moved apart?

And just out of curiosity, _how long are those component cables_?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> How about RFI...


Too low in frequency


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

OK, just a thought... 

So ground loop meaning that all devices do not have the same ground reference? 

Or no ground at all?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> OK, just a thought...
> 
> So ground loop meaning that all devices do not have the same ground reference?
> 
> Or no ground at all?


"Somewhere" there is 60 cycles going to ground through the [analog] component cables.
This is quite common with cable TV, since their cables run for a long distance on the utility poles and it couples on to the cable feed.
A "simple" DC block, stops this.

As you move into DirecTV receivers, some don't have a three prong [grounding] plug, but if the SAT feed is grounded, then so is the receiver.
A resistive [bad] ground can cause this too, as the ground with the least resistance is where voltage "wants" to go.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> OK, just a thought...
> 
> So ground loop meaning that all devices do not have the same ground reference?
> 
> Or no ground at all?


Oh, this is a good one to get yourself involved in. Never heard of a "ground loop"? Neither did I until I read a couple of posts about them. And I've been an electrician for over 35 years. Got into arguments about grounding rods and how it was possible to have a different reference to ground in some instances.

I'm always willing to learn and always willing to admit I'm wrong, but all those arguments I had didn't change my mind about ground references. I had people from Michigan and Wisconsin telling me I had an eight foot grounding rod that my service was connected to. Insisted that I did not and that the grounding for my house is supplied by a block on my water pipe entry to the home. And a plumber and I found the original grounding block a couple of weeks ago while installing a new deep sink.

I finally had a D* tech put a "grounding block" on my cabling. I've installed ground blocks, bugs and lugs to copper rods and couldn't believe what D* terms a "grounding block". Which had to be wired to a real grounding block. What they do is a lot cheaper than doing the proper thing and running a ground wire to the ground block.

Some of the members are more electronically oriented than I am and they truly believe in "ground loops" and can offer up a pretty good argument for their existence. I see VOS is on this thread and will probably give you a good interpretation of "ground loops". And I guess in the world of electronics they might well exist. In the electrical world, ground is ground. What kind of different "reference" could you possibly see in ground?

Remember, there is no "Science of Electricity". There is only the Theory of Electricity and electronic devices are still electric devices first. In other words, anything is possible. I'm just not sure that "ground loops" is the correct nomenclature.

Rich


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

My experience with different ground reference (different potentials) was this...

I was installing paging equipment (part of my "customer support" role when I was a software guy). I forget the exact problem, but basically one piece of equipment would only work if the serial port console was plugged in. Unplug the console, it would not work. Plug it in, all was well. Well one time I just happened to be plugging/unplugging, and as I held the cable in one hand and leaned against the rails in the cabinet, I got a mild electric shock... I was like, "Wow, never noticed that before." To make a long story short (no pun intended) something was not grounded and it was using the ground on the serial cable, which was connected to a device that WAS grounded, to complete the circuit. Not sure what side was fixed (isolate the other ground, or properly ground the "odd" device), but that shocking little discovery solved a BIG mystery...

Rich, have you ever installed any isolated ground duplex receptacle (like the P&S IG6300)? If you have, I'm trying to figure out the metal strap along the back... Can't find a picture, but I'll have one tomorrow. No big deal, just the construction has me curious. 

Eric


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> How about RFI...
> 
> How close are the coax cables to the component cables?
> 
> ...


The coax cables run up the living room wall and down the bedroom wall with the component cables...the run acroos the attic they are not next to each other. The component cable that runs thru the attic is 75 feet. The "test" cable is 50'. I know that is long, but both cables deliver a good signal to the Philips TV all the time, and to the Olevia TV when the satellite is not connected.

I am open to any alternatives to getting an HD signal to the bedroom. Can HDMI push 60 feet or so? My other choice is some sort of CAT6 and all the hardware associated with it. I'd rather not spend the $$, but would if I had to. I'd rather resolve the issue, though.

Is the consensus a ground loop issue? If so, what is the best way to resolve it. I am fairly handy, but ignorant on the specifics of how to properly ground a dish.
John


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "Somewhere" there is 60 cycles going to ground through the [analog] component cables.
> This is quite common with cable TV, since their cables run for a long distance on the utility poles and it couples on to the cable feed.


People reading this will find it hard to believe, but I used to work in an old chemical plant and we had armored cables buried underground that were as long as a mile. These were large cables with many separate conductors in them (lotsa wires). With both ends separated from any power source, we could always find voltages up to 120 volts and it was always AC. I asked an old electrician who I had a great deal of respect for why this happened. He said something like, "I don't know for sure, but it's like the wire wants to "be hot". We showed several electrical engineers and they couldn't come up with a truly rational reason. I still don't have any idea why it was AC voltage. No power behind it, no danger of shock, but I put a Wiggy across two conductors and felt the coil in the Wiggy vibrate. Didn't last long, seemed to drain the voltage quickly, but it was there.



> As you move into DirecTV receivers, some don't have a three prong [grounding] plug, but if the SAT feed is grounded, then so is the receiver.


So, for the last six years my system was not grounded. Not one installer knew how to do it. I kept asking where the ground was and never got an answer. And all they had to do was put their "grounding block" on the cable and attach it to the ground block on my outside water faucet. Took the guy that finally did it ten minutes.



> A resistive [bad] ground can cause this too, as the ground with the least resistance is where voltage "wants" to go.


I've had this happen many times and each time it was because the electrician didn't tighten the lug properly.

The way to check your grounds easily, assuming you have GFIs installed, is to put a Wiggy lead on the screw of a receptacle cover an the other lead into the smaller of the two openings on the receptacle. Should trip the GFI immediately.

That's it? Where were you when I went thru this last year with those guys from Michigan and Wisconsin? Seems like they've been chasing "ground loops" for years.

They had me going "loopy".

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Some of the members are more electronically oriented than I am and they truly believe in "ground loops" and can offer up a pretty good argument for their existence. I see VOS is on this thread and will probably give you a good interpretation of "ground loops". And I guess in the world of electronics they might well exist. In the electrical world, ground is ground. What kind of different "reference" could you possibly see in ground?
> 
> Remember, there is no "Science of Electricity". There is only the Theory of Electricity and electronic devices are still electric devices first. In other words, anything is possible. I'm just not sure that "ground loops" is the correct nomenclature.
> 
> Rich


At the voltages you've been using, I'd say "ground is ground". It is either grounded or not.
At much smaller voltages, the resistive component of the "ground" means not all grounds are equal.
Using an oscilloscope set to millivolts, will give you a whole new view of "ground". In some test setups, "where" a box is plugged into the same power strip can affect the grounding. At this level simply the resistance "of the ground" can vary your measurements and you've already dropped yourself off "building ground" as it's way too noisy.
"I think" the term "loop" comes from one piece of equipment "looping through" another as it goes to ground, be it a shield of a cable, ground of a serial cable, etc.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> Rich, have you ever installed any isolated ground duplex receptacle (like the P&S IG6300)? If you have, I'm trying to figure out the metal strap along the back... Can't find a picture, but I'll have one tomorrow. No big deal, just the construction has me curious.
> 
> Eric


Haven't got a clue what that is. I shall Google it.

Rich


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

If I'm understanding what VOS is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm very interested in this), you need to make sure that:

a) Your dish is properly grounded*, and
b) [assuming TV is three prong] that the outlet it is using is also grounded (on the same ground). Something like this might help:
http://www.extech.com/instrument/products/alpha/ET15.html

Assuming it is grounded, one way would be to check for a difference (using a volt meter) between the two grounds.

By all means, what till VOS and Rich weigh in, I'm no electrician, but as an "IT guy", I have to trouble shoot this stuff way more than I would like.

* Is your dish properly installed and grounded?
→ Satellite Dish FAQ


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## HD AV (Nov 22, 2006)

I have the exact same problem with my H20 in the bedroom. Component putting the red and green lines in. HDMI, no problem. Component cable is only 1 meter. This problem did not show up for over 6 months after the installation was made and is intermittent. It is not a constant. Took me quite a bit of troubleshooting to find the culprit, the component in. I was searching for ground loops, different potential grounds, cable run, etc. None of that was the problem. All of my components, H20, DVD, and Sony 40" LCD are plugged into a UPS and the AV is plugged into the same circuit as the UPS. I could not figure out what was the problem, especially since it was not a constant. My fix was HDMI from the H20 and component from the DVD. Solved the problem. The DVD has never exhibited the lines on the TV. So, for the gurus out there, figure this one out. I haven't a clue as to the cause, and if it was ground potential or loop, the DVD player should exhibit the same symptoms, should it not? All are hooked to the same components and circuit. I also have an HR20 downstairs. Will try unhooking at the ground block outside and hook the component back up upstairs and see if the lines show up. If not, it has something to do with the HR20 and H20 onnected to the common dish.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Haven't got a clue what that is. I shall Google it.
> 
> Rich


You guys weighed in before I was done typing... 

Anyway, here's what the receptacle looks like:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Improve/IsolatGnd.html

But it's the back that has me curious... I'll have the photo tomorrow (still can't find one on-line), and unless you guys don't mind the hijack, I'll PM you.

Oh, and our on-site electrician "never really noticed the back" either, which only furthered my curiosity.

PS. Maybe I'll pull the panel cover too and see where those IG ground wires are going...

PPS. I also noticed that the ground lug the installer installed was not very tight, so I snugged it up (along with the F-type connectors) seen here. You can also see that one boot (?) is not so straight, which is what made me check the whole thing. I'm probably going to fix that drip loop too!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> People reading this will find it hard to believe, but I used to work in an old chemical plant and we had armored cables buried underground that were as long as a mile. These were large cables with many separate conductors in them (lotsa wires). With both ends separated from any power source, we could always find voltages up to 120 volts and it was always AC. I asked an old electrician who I had a great deal of respect for why this happened. He said something like, "I don't know for sure, but it's like the wire wants to "be hot". We showed several electrical engineers and they couldn't come up with a truly rational reason. I still don't have any idea why it was AC voltage. No power behind it, no danger of shock, but I put a Wiggy across two conductors and felt the coil in the Wiggy vibrate. Didn't last long, seemed to drain the voltage quickly, but it was there.


 You might need to come up with a picture of "Mr. Wiggy" [if you don't get banned for doing it] :lol:

"I'd bet" you know a thing or two about transformers, which use mutual inductance. Now picture the winding all layed out. You have a field around one wire and another wire near it [long runs of course]. Now you have the fields cycling at 60 Hz. Your "secondary winding" is going to have voltage induced in it, but little to no amps [poor transfomer]. 


> Where were you when I went thru this last year with those guys from Michigan and Wisconsin? Seems like they've been chasing "ground loops" for years.
> 
> They had me going "loopy".
> 
> Rich


"Banned" from discussing grounds as nobody would [wanted to] listen.

"Then there was the one" where a contractor tried to have me measure my "hot leg" and neutral leg, with a volt meter and I shouldn't have more than a two volt reading. I found it just a bit hard to believe if the circuit was "live" that I wouldn't have closer to 120 volts, but "I could get it through to him".


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> If I'm understanding what VOS is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm very interested in this), you need to make sure that:
> 
> a) Your dish is properly grounded*, and
> b) [assuming TV is three prong] that the outlet it is using is also grounded (on the same ground). Something like this might help:
> ...


It seems like you have a good grasp of it.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> At the voltages you've been using, I'd say "ground is ground". It is either grounded or not.
> At much smaller voltages, the resistive component of the "ground" means not all grounds are equal.
> Using an oscilloscope set to millivolts, will give you a whole new view of "ground". In some test setups, "where" a box is plugged into the same power strip can affect the grounding. At this level simply the resistance "of the ground" can vary your measurements and you've already dropped yourself off "building ground" as it's way too noisy.
> "I think" the term "loop" comes from one piece of equipment "looping through" another as it goes to ground, be it a shield of a cable, ground of a serial cable, etc.


That's what I hated about electronics. Little bitty voltages, minuscule amps and tiny resistors. Millivolts. My God. In ten years electronics will be on a quantum level. That would solve the fuel problem. We'd be able to use solar panels for electronic appliances.

Fred says "Hi".

This actually makes sense:

From Wackypedia:

A ground loop in a medium connecting circuits designed to be at the same potential but actually at different potentials can be hazardous, or cause problems with the electrical system, because the electrical potential at different points on the surface of the Earth can vary. Such an occurrence can be hazardous, for example, to personnel working on long metal conductors.

In a floating ground system, that is, one not connected to Earth, the voltages will probably be unstable, and if some of the conductors that constitute the return circuit to the source have a relatively high resistance, or have high currents through them that produce a significant voltage (I·R) drop, they can be hazardous.

Low current wiring is particularly susceptible to ground loops. If two pieces of audio equipment are plugged into different power outlets, there will often be a difference in their respective ground potentials. If a signal is passed from one to the other via an audio connection with the ground wire intact, this potential difference causes a spurious current through the cables, e.g.: creating an audible buzz at the AC mains base frequency (50 or 60 Hz) and the harmonics thereof (120 Hz, 240 Hz, and so on), called mains hum. Sometimes, performers remove the grounding pin from the cord connecting an appliance to the power outlet, however, this creates an electrocution risk. The first solution is to ensure that all metal chassis are interconnected, then to the electrical distribution system at one point (often referred to as a "single-point ground"). The next is to have shielded cables for the low currents, with the shield connected only at the source end. Another solution is to use isolation transformers, opto-isolators or baluns to avoid a direct electrical connection between the different grounds. However, bandwidth of such is of consideration. The better isolation transformers have grounded shields between the two sets of windings. In circuits having high frequencies, such as computer monitors, chokes are placed at the end of the cables just before the termination to the next appliance, e.g. the computer. These chokes are most often called ferrite core devices.

In video, ground loops can be seen as hum bars (bands of slightly different brightness) scrolling vertically up the screen. These are frequently seen with Video projectors where the display device has its case grounded via a 3-prong plug, and the other components have a floating ground connected to the CATV coax. In this case the video cable is grounded at the projector end to the home electrical system, and at the other end to the cable TV's ground, inducing a current through the cable which distorts the picture. As with audio ground loops, this problem can be solved by placing an isolation transformer on the cable-tv coax. Alternatively, one can use a surge protector that includes coax protection. If the cable is routed through the same surge protector as the three-prong device, both will be regrounded to the surge protector.

Ground loop issues with television coaxial cable can also affect any connected audio devices such as a receiver. Even if all of the audio and video equipment in for example a home theater system is plugged into the same power outlet, and thus all share the same ground, the coaxial cable entering the TV is actually grounded at the cable company. The potential of this ground is likely to differ slightly from the potential of the house's ground, so a ground loop occurs, causing undesirable mains hum in the system's speakers. A cheap way to resolve this problem is to buy a 75-Ohm Coax Combiner-Splitter and a "Matching Transformer". The 75-Ohm Coax Combiner/Splitter converts the impedance from 75 ohms to 300 ohms and the "Matching Transformer" converts the impedance from 300 ohms to 75 ohms. Both parts connected together will act as a "poor man's" isolation transformer.

Ground and ground loops are also important in designing circuits. In many circuits, large currents may exist through the ground plane, leading to voltage differences of the ground reference in different parts of the circuit, leading to hum and other problems. Several techniques should be used to avoid ground loops, and otherwise, guarantee good grounding:

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HD AV said:


> I have the exact same problem with my H20 in the bedroom. Component putting the red and green lines in. HDMI, no problem. Component cable is only 1 meter. This problem did not show up for over 6 months after the installation was made and is intermittent. It is not a constant. Took me quite a bit of troubleshooting to find the culprit, the component in. I was searching for ground loops, different potential grounds, cable run, etc. None of that was the problem. All of my components, H20, DVD, and Sony 40" LCD are plugged into a UPS and the AV is plugged into the same circuit as the UPS. I could not figure out what was the problem, especially since it was not a constant. My fix was HDMI from the H20 and component from the DVD. Solved the problem. The DVD has never exhibited the lines on the TV. So, for the gurus out there, figure this one out. I haven't a clue as to the cause, and if it was ground potential or loop, the DVD player should exhibit the same symptoms, should it not? All are hooked to the same components and circuit. I also have an HR20 downstairs. Will try unhooking at the ground block outside and hook the component back up upstairs and see if the lines show up. If not, it has something to do with the HR20 and H20 onnected to the common dish.


As Rich has posted: grounds can make/drive you loopy.
Once you go digital, the [small] 60 cycles is still there but below the "ones & zeros" threshold so it doesn't care [ignores it].
To get into your "why" would take much more info about your system, setup, etc.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I hope you just copy/pasted that.... :lol: 
Instead of the 75 to 300 to 300 to 75 ohm "stuff", a simple DC block works wonders.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=VB-1000&main_cat=03&source=googleps


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> If I'm understanding what VOS is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm very interested in this), you need to make sure that:
> 
> a) Your dish is properly grounded*, and
> b) [assuming TV is three prong] that the outlet it is using is also grounded (on the same ground). Something like this might help:
> ...


For all ground devices that are properly installed, such as grounding rods, Ground is Ground. You need an ohm meter or better yet a megohm meter to read from ground to ground and you shouldn't see any difference. Every sub station in the national grid is grounded and there is a sub station close enough to just about everyone in the contiguous States so that there is no real difference between "Grounds".

Now, when you get down to what VOS is talking about in those itty bitty circuits, sure you're going to see ground resistances vary. But not on the common "low voltages" 120VAC, 220VAC and 480VAC.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> You guys weighed in before I was done typing...
> 
> Anyway, here's what the receptacle looks like:
> 
> ...


You didn't put the lug on a refrigeration line, did you?

Rich


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> I hope you just copy/pasted that.... :lol:
> Instead of the 75 to 300 to 300 to 75 ohm "stuff", a simple DC block works wonders.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=VB-1000&main_cat=03&source=googleps


I'll have to look at my neighbor's (exterior) wall, but even cable companys use a ground block and ground it to the house's ground, don't they? No I could see how they might want to isolate the two grounds, but I'm pretty sure the block is grounded.

In fact this reminds me of a problem in my mother's (older Florida) home. One part of the house (the part with the cable box) does not have grounded outlets. The new part, where the computer is, does. I added a TV card to the computer, and I saw an arc when I connected the coax to the tuner card. Everything seemed to work OK, but it was wierd... I forget why, maybe some other small problem was discovered, or maybe my step-dad didn't like it (too much tech), or maybe my mom got tired of the cable across the floor, but a few weeks later it was disconnected.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> I'll have to look at my neighbor's (exterior) wall, but even cable companys use a ground block and ground it to the house's ground, don't they? No I could see how they might want to isolate the two grounds, but I'm pretty sure the block is grounded.
> 
> In fact this reminds me of a problem in my mother's (older Florida) home. One part of the house (the part with the cable box) does not have grounded outlets. The new part, where the computer is, does. I added a TV card to the computer, and I saw an arc when I connected the coax to the tuner card. Everything seemed to work OK, but it was wierd... I forget why, maybe some other small problem was discovered, or maybe my step-dad didn't like it (too much tech), or maybe my mom got tired of the cable across the floor, but a few weeks later it was disconnected.


"post #7" ^ : Cable TV needs a DC block because 60 cycles is coupled on to it from the utility poles [long cable runs close to AC].


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I hope you just copy/pasted that.... :lol:
> Instead of the 75 to 300 to 300 to 75 ohm "stuff", a simple DC block works wonders.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=VB-1000&main_cat=03&source=googleps


Of course I copied that. I would fall asleep if I had to write something like that. I'm still not sure they even exist.

I looked at that blocker and it blocks both AC and DC. Where would you put that? I gather it blocks voltage from the mesh of the coaxial cable and not the center wire. All these years and nobody has come up with something better than coaxial cable. I find that really strange.

Rich


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

rich584 said:


> You didn't put the lug on a refrigeration line, did you?
> 
> Rich


Is that why my house is so hot? Or got hotter when I tightened it? :flaiming

JK - No, that's the ground wire that goes to the electrical panel... As far as I can tell anyways.

But on closer inspection, I see it does not seem to ground to the electrical service, only to the telephone NID/demarc.

Well it's been a while since I looked at my neighbors wall, and it's not a simple (yellow) coax anymore... Also I see he now has a single LNB dish on his roof, which is using the block seen in the second photo. Also of note how his ground is made to the power meter box... Interestnig... Very interesting!

Keep in mind my stuff is working fine (connnected HR21 to TV via HDMI).

My wall

Neighbor's wall


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Of course I copied that. I would fall asleep if I had to write something like that. I'm still not sure they even exist.
> 
> I looked at that blocker and it blocks both AC and DC. Where would you put that? I gather it blocks voltage from the mesh of the coaxial cable and not the center wire. All these years and nobody has come up with something better than coaxial cable. I find that really strange.
> 
> Rich


I almost did reading it... :lol: 
75-300 ohm transformers are still around, though "twin lead" is fading fast.
The DC block wouldn't be used on SAT feeds or the LNB power wouldn't get there.
CATV should have one as it enters the house and wouldn't hurt if there was a ground block before it too.
Some DC blocks are just shield, while others block both.
As you get above 60 cycles, the conductors act more like a pipe. There has been waveguides [no center conductor at all], but the size for these frequencies makes them BIG.
RG6 is simply "cheap" which will keep it around for a long time.


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

So is the easiest way for a non-electrician to get the dish, or the circuit that all my electronics are plugged into grounded properly? I took a pic of the ground on my outside wall, will post it tomorrow. It looks like the runs from the LNB are grounded to the telephone company's d-marc. Is that sufficient? Can I simply ground that to ground (earth)?

My setup is actually a bit more convoluted than some setups. Besides the long component run into the bedroom, I have a couple of sony modulators that send a SD signal to all the rooms in the house (baby cameras and old 2 old Tivos). So everything I have (2 tivos, 3 cameras and the HR21) are all connected together in one way or another so I can have the flexibility of watching everything in any room of the house. 

I guess I am lucky this grounding issue hasn't reared its ugly head sooner.

What is the best solution?

Also, does it make sense that the lines are not visible on the other TV? Both are new HD LCDs plugged into the same outlet using the same component run. Does is make sense that one TV is more sensitive to ground-loop issues?
John

John


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

jangelj said:


> So is the easiest way for a non-electrician to get the dish, or the circuit that all my electronics are plugged into grounded properly? I took a pic of the ground on my outside wall, will post it tomorrow. It looks like the runs from the LNB are grounded to the telephone company's d-marc. Is that sufficient? Can I simply ground that to ground (earth)?


We must have had the same builder...

After a close look at my exterior ground, which is used for phone and sat, what it really is is a ground wire coming from my electrical panel.

I pulled off my panel's cover (I have pics, I just have not uploaded them yet) and what I learned is that exterior ground wire is actually tied to the ground block inside my panel, and another solid copper wire goes out of the panel and up with all the house wiring. But up to where?

Well I went into the "attic" and found that wire, followed it across the rafters and then it disappeared back down. Down? This really confused me...

As it turns out it disappeared down near my water heater... And it was clamped to cold water pipe that supplies the water heater... So that was the location of the real ground, and that exterior ground was there just for the use by the phone service, which the satellite was tied into...

I feel much better about that outside ground now...

Anyone want to see the pics? If so, I'll upload them.


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

Here are a couple of pics of my ground. You can see in the first pic the 2 blocks that ground the feeds from the LNBs (4 wires). The 2nd pic is the other end of the green wire that connects to the 2 blocks. You can see it "grounds" in the phone dmarc.

Can I just ground the 2 blocks to the earth? Is that a true ground?

JOhn


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Does that solid copper wire, the one with the yellow tag on it, go through the wall? If it does, I'll bet your ground is like mine (described above).

Here's the inside of my electrical panel...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/EricJRW/satellite/IMG_2317.jpg

The ground to the water pipe is the solid copper wire on the left. The "exterior ground" is the solid copper wire on the right. It's kinda hard to see. It's not in the Romex bundle and it goes through the box's top (to the right of the bundle).

And yeah, I probably need to check the continuity of the ground point...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/EricJRW/satellite/IMG_2319.jpg

PS.

*VOS*, thanks for the ""post #7" ^ : Cable TV needs a DC block because 60 cycles is coupled on to it from the utility poles [long cable runs close to AC]." info... I wish I knew about the DC block idea back then... I think it could have saved some trouble. As it turns out, that computer was handed off to my younger brother, who reformatted/reinstalled, but the driver/application disc was lost, and we could not find them on-line... So I doubt it will ever be a problem again... Too bad, as I would have liked to try that solution.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sure looked like a refrigeration line in yesterday's picture. I see what they did now. You should be alright.

Rich



EricJRW said:


> Is that why my house is so hot? Or got hotter when I tightened it? :flaiming
> 
> JK - No, that's the ground wire that goes to the electrical panel... As far as I can tell anyways.
> 
> ...


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I almost did reading it...


I couldn't bring myself to read it. I went "loopy" arguing about "ground loops" last year with those guys. Sounds like badly installed grounds to me.



> The DC block wouldn't be used on SAT feeds or the LNB power wouldn't get there.


That is the reason I asked.



> Some DC blocks are just shield, while others block both.
> As you get above 60 cycles, the conductors act more like a pipe. There has been waveguides [no center conductor at all], but the size for these frequencies makes them BIG.


And, we find ourselves back in the realm of electronics again. Waveguides.



> RG6 is simply "cheap" which will keep it around for a long time.


Well, that's as good a reason as any, but it is hard to believe something better and cheaper hasn't come around in all this time. I guess I should be careful what I wish for. Better the Devil you know, than the Devil you don't.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> Can I just ground the 2 blocks to the earth? Is that a true ground?


"A true ground"?
This is not a simple question.
If you were able to tap into the center of the earth, then yes, this would be a true ground.
Since we can't, any "ground" would be less than "true", but may be "enough". What is "enough"?
"Code" is something like a 10' copper rod, driven into the earth. If the ground is wet and salty, there will be good conductivity. If it's dry, there will be less.
If you have two [or more] ground rods, they could have different continuity, so all grounds "should be" connected [bonded] together. LARGE cable has less resistance than small cable, so "the best" grounds use the largest cables. The longer the cable, the more resistance. Corrosion at each connection will add resistance too.
High voltage will overcome "most" resistance. 
Phone = 48 volts
AC power = 110+
Static = 1,000+
Lightning = ???

Most of the grounds pictured in this thread look to be fine for high voltage.

The analog cables connecting a TV and direcTV receivers are low voltage [one or two volts]. This is where small amounts of resistance in the ground(s) can cause the problem in post #1. Connecting all of your eqiupment to the same ground [potential] with less resistance than the analog cables, will stop the differance in ground potential between equipment [stopping/breaking the ground loop/path].
Grounding can be a *****. There is no other way to put it. What do you use as a referance? If it's a poor ground, all of your measurements are off, and driving in a 10' rod at your feet, every time you make a measurement, isn't always possible.

And the question was: "is that a true ground?" I'm not sure.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> So is the easiest way for a non-electrician to get the dish, or the circuit that all my electronics are plugged into grounded properly? I took a pic of the ground on my outside wall, will post it tomorrow. It looks like the runs from the LNB are grounded to the telephone company's d-marc. Is that sufficient? Can I simply ground that to ground (earth)?


There are web sites that sell four foot copper grounding spikes. I can't remember the sites, naturally, but if you do some research you will find them. Then you drive the rod into the ground until you only have enough showing to get a ground lug on and use at least a 14 gauge green insulated wire to connect your ground block on the sat cables to the rod. Simple, just make sure you drive the rod close to the sat ground block. You might want to check out Graybar or some other large electrical supplier. I would be more comfortable with a five foot rod. And you need a metal sleeve to put over the rod when you drive it or it is liable to bend. Try your local electric supplier, not a Home Depot or Lowes.



> My setup is actually a bit more convoluted than some setups. Besides the long component run into the bedroom, I have a couple of sony modulators that send a SD signal to all the rooms in the house (baby cameras and old 2 old Tivos). So everything I have (2 tivos, 3 cameras and the HR21) are all connected together in one way or another so I can have the flexibility of watching everything in any room of the house.


Have you tried only running the DVRs and disconnecting everything else?



> I guess I am lucky this grounding issue hasn't reared its ugly head sooner.


If it is a grounding issue. You haven't proved that yet.



> Also, does it make sense that the lines are not visible on the other TV? Both are new HD LCDs plugged into the same outlet using the same component run. Does is make sense that one TV is more sensitive to ground-loop issues?


Sadly, it does make sense that one TV would show the lines and the other one wouldn't, but as I said, you still have to prove that it is a grounding problem.

Life isn't easy in the wonderful world of 20/21s, John. And I suspect you don't have a grounding issue. Just a WAG on my part, don't take it to the bank.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> After a close look at my exterior ground, which is used for phone and sat, what it really is is a ground wire coming from my electrical panel.
> 
> I pulled off my panel's cover (I have pics, I just have not uploaded them yet) and what I learned is that exterior ground wire is actually tied to the ground block inside my panel, and another solid copper wire goes out of the panel and up with all the house wiring. But up to where?
> 
> Well I went into the "attic" and found that wire, followed it across the rafters and then it disappeared back down. Down? This really confused me...


Ah, this is getting funny now. Down? Where else would you find "ground" but down?



> As it turns out it disappeared down near my water heater... And it was clamped to cold water pipe that supplies the water heater... So that was the location of the real ground, and that exterior ground was there just for the use by the phone service, which the satellite was tied into...


And you can tie any future grounds to your water pipes and know that you have established a good ground. That's how grounding is achieved in my house too.



> I feel much better about that outside ground now...
> 
> Anyone want to see the pics? If so, I'll upload them.


Of course, I like looking at pictures. And you should feel better about the grounding, you did the right thing and found the source.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> Here are a couple of pics of my ground. You can see in the first pic the 2 blocks that ground the feeds from the LNBs (4 wires). The 2nd pic is the other end of the green wire that connects to the 2 blocks. You can see it "grounds" in the phone dmarc.
> 
> Can I just ground the 2 blocks to the earth? Is that a true ground?
> 
> JOhn


You're all right. Don't go crazy about this, you'll end up rewiring the whole house. The phone companies get their grounds right.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I suspect you don't have a grounding issue. Just a WAG on my part, don't take it to the bank.
> Rich


If they're what they appear to be: horizontal lines that move up or down at a slow rate, they surely are from 60 cycles and a [better] ground or DC block is needed.
I've seen them, had them, and cured them.


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

see below



rich584 said:


> There are web sites that sell four foot copper grounding spikes. I can't remember the sites, naturally, but if you do some research you will find them. Then you drive the rod into the ground until you only have enough showing to get a ground lug on and use at least a 14 gauge green insulated wire to connect your ground block on the sat cables to the rod. Simple, just make sure you drive the rod close to the sat ground block. You might want to check out Graybar or some other large electrical supplier. I would be more comfortable with a five foot rod. And you need a metal sleeve to put over the rod when you drive it or it is liable to bend. Try your local electric supplier, not a Home Depot or Lowes.
> 
> Have you tried only running the DVRs and disconnecting everything else?


I have tried running the DVRs only. It looks fine until I connect the feed from the LNBs. I will do more testing this weekend when I will have more time.



rich584 said:


> If it is a grounding issue. You haven't proved that yet.
> 
> Sadly, it does make sense that one TV would show the lines and the other one wouldn't, but as I said, you still have to prove that it is a grounding problem.
> 
> ...


If you don't think it is a grounding issue, what else do you think it could be?


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> If they're what they appear to be: horizontal lines that move up or down at a slow rate, they surely are from 60 cycles and a [better] ground or DC block is needed.
> I've seen them, had them, and cured them.


I will work on a better ground this weekend. THanks.

When you say "DC Block" are you talking about on the RG6 between the LNBs and the HR21? If so, wouldn't that cause problems? I thought those lines needed some amount of voltage to do whatever they do to receive different channels or transponders (sorry if I am using the wrong terminology here).


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Interesting question. What is a "true ground". Since we're only dealing with a theory, that might well be subjective. The metal rods called for in the NEC are eight foot iron (or some such metal, I don't remember exactly) and are to be used to ground services. That code has evolved over the years. What was perfectly acceptable 40 years ago wouldn't be allowed now. Witness Eric's ground block on his water line. Not found in new houses today.

You are correct about bonding all ground rods together. That does seem to help.



veryoldschool said:


> "A true ground"?
> This is not a simple question.
> If you were able to tap into the center of the earth, then yes, this would be a true ground.
> Since we can't, any "ground" would be less than "true", but may be "enough". What is "enough"?
> ...





> Static = 1,000+
> Lightning = ???


Static electricity will jump about an inch or so. Walk over a plush rug and reach for a metal doorknob you will see that inch or so jump. Since 4160VAC will jump about a quarter inch gap, the static electricity in my example is probably about in the 20,000 volt range.

Lightning is in the hundreds of thousands of volts. And new studies show that if you can hear thunder you can be struck by lightning. Think about that. You could be miles away from a thunderstorm and think you are perfectly safe and...BLAM!



> Most of the grounds pictured in this thread look to be fine for high voltage.


I agree. But perhaps a parameter should be set here. In my world of electricity, 600VAC and lower is "low voltage". Any voltage above 600VAC is "high voltage" and is quite scary, in fact quite terrifying. We have a pretty good understanding about voltages below 600 volts and can pretty much rely on that understanding when wiring a house or factory.

But when you get into devices that run on less that a volt or two, well that is electronics and beyond my ken. Most of the electronic minded people I know consider 24 volts and below "low voltage" and that makes it more difficult to understand what they are talking about. As your next paragraph illustrates.



> The analog cables connecting a TV and direcTV receivers are low voltage [one or two volts]. This is where small amounts of resistance in the ground(s) can cause the problem in post #1. Connecting all of your eqiupment to the same ground [potential] with less resistance than the analog cables, will stop the differance in ground potential between equipment [stopping/breaking the ground loop/path].
> Grounding can be a *****. There is no other way to put it. What do you use as a referance? If it's a poor ground, all of your measurements are off, and driving in a 10' rod at your feet, every time you make a measurement, isn't always possible.
> 
> And the question was: "is that a true ground?" I'm not sure.


I had a teacher who likened electricity to training cobras...blind. And the best answer to any electrical question that you are not sure of is "I'm not sure" or "I don't know".

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> If they're what they appear to be: horizontal lines that move up or down at a slow rate, they surely are from 60 cycles and a [better] ground or DC block is needed.
> I've seen them, had them, and cured them.


OK, I stand corrected.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> see below
> 
> I have tried running the DVRs only. It looks fine until I connect the feed from the LNBs. I will do more testing this weekend when I will have more time.
> 
> If you don't think it is a grounding issue, what else do you think it could be?


Gotta go with VOS about this. He knows more about electronics than I do.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> OK, I stand corrected.
> 
> Rich


"out here" [perhaps because it's drier], ground rods are more like 10' and copper, but on my land, you can't get two feet in without hitting granite.
back in my Air Force days, low voltage was 28 volts or lower. I think it has to do with the normal human skin resistance and what voltage is "enough" to cause harm. I would work a 28 volt interphone, on the Aircraft, that SOB would bite. :eek2:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> I will work on a better ground this weekend. THanks.
> 
> When you say "DC Block" are you talking about on the RG6 between the LNBs and the HR21? If so, wouldn't that cause problems? I thought those lines needed some amount of voltage to do whatever they do to receive different channels or transponders (sorry if I am using the wrong terminology here).


You can't use any DC blocks on the SAT feeds as they are sending DC to the LNBs for power.
I've been googling to find a site that did have DC blocks for video cables, but I can't seem to find it now.
I would look into where/how your TV and DirecTV receiver are grounded. It may be that your TV is now grounding through your DirecTV receiver if it "goes away" when you remove the SAT feeds.
If this is the case, I'd connect a ground to the TV [perhaps using the antenna input].


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> You can't use any DC blocks on the SAT feeds as they are sending DC to the LNBs for power.
> I've been googling to find a site that did have DC blocks for video cables, but I can't seem to find it now.
> I would look into where/how your TV and DirecTV receiver are grounded. It may be that your TV is now grounding through your DirecTV receiver if it "goes away" when you remove the SAT feeds.
> If this is the case, I'd connect a ground to the TV [perhaps using the antenna input].


Hmmm, grounding the TV might be the answer. But I don't know about grounding it using the antenna input. Right now I have a cable going into the antenna input to feed the kiddie cams/Tivos from my in-house modulator.

this TV uses a regulare computer power cable with 3-prongs. Why wouldn't it ground thru that 3rd prong? I have tried 2 different power cables and 2 different outlets on different circuits.

John


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> Hmmm, grounding the TV might be the answer. But I don't know about grounding it using the antenna input. Right now I have a cable going into the antenna input to feed the kiddie cams/Tivos from my in-house modulator.
> 
> this TV uses a regulare computer power cable with 3-prongs. Why wouldn't it ground thru that 3rd prong? I have tried 2 different power cables and 2 different outlets on different circuits.
> 
> John


"It should" ground through the three prong plug, but "where". Lots of cable and connections before it connects to the power panel ground. Also have you "tested" the wall plug ground?
Add to this the "kiddie cams"... they too could be using/needing the receiver as a ground.
Your TV antenna, is just like your SAT feeds. The shield [outside] is ground, so you could use a ground block [like the SAT feeds] and connect it to a "known good ground".


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "out here" [perhaps because it's drier], ground rods are more like 10' and copper, but on my land, you can't get two feet in without hitting granite.
> back in my Air Force days, low voltage was 28 volts or lower. I think it has to do with the normal human skin resistance and what voltage is "enough" to cause harm. I would work a 28 volt interphone, on the Aircraft, that SOB would bite. :eek2:


The NEC is the NEC no matter where you are and doesn't call for copper. Of course that is a minimum requirement. Local authorities may exceed the NEC due to local conditions as in your case. They may also be buried horizontally, but I don't know at what depth. If you tried to drive an 8' rod into the ground where I live you would get six inches and hit shale. Hence the horizontal option. I think it just has to be below the frost level, but I'm not positive about that.

A few years ago, I had to research electrical shock for a seminar and found many things I did not know. For instance, the threshold of fatal electrical shock is between 70 and 100 milliamps. That's all it takes to stop your heart and you can pound on someone's chest and give them CPR and you probably (and that's a real strong "probably") will fail to restart the victims heart. You need a defibrillator.

The reason most of the "lower voltages" of 28 or 24 volts are usually not fatal is that there is not enough push (voltage) to force the required amperage to stop your heart. But given the proper source, with enough amperage behind it, you could kill someone with those voltages. You certainly can with a car battery, altho you'd probably need an inverter to change the juice to AC. DC tends to throw a person away from the source, while AC locks up your muscles and keeps you from letting go of the source. I've seen a couple of guys who worked for the railroad and got hit with 600 volts of DC. They both had holes in their arms and legs much like a bullet wound leaves. Scary.

Those low voltages make fatalities from them rare, but if you had one bare foot in a puddle of oil and your hand on the source you might well achieve electrocution. Rare, but not impossible.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> You can't use any DC blocks on the SAT feeds as they are sending DC to the LNBs for power.
> I've been googling to find a site that did have DC blocks for video cables, but I can't seem to find it now.
> I would look into where/how your TV and DirecTV receiver are grounded. It may be that your TV is now grounding through your DirecTV receiver if it "goes away" when you remove the SAT feeds.
> If this is the case, I'd connect a ground to the TV [perhaps using the antenna input].


His TV should be grounded thru his houses wiring system. Wonder if he has receptacles with ground prongs? Easy way to check if he has. Put a voltmeter lead into the smaller of the two vertical holes in the receptacle and the other lead into the ground hole in the receptacle. If you get about 120 volts, your TV is grounded.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "It should" ground through the three prong plug, but "where". Lots of cable and connections before it connects to the power panel ground. Also have you "tested" the wall plug ground?
> Add to this the "kiddie cams"... they too could be using/needing the receiver as a ground.
> Your TV antenna, is just like your SAT feeds. The shield [outside] is ground, so you could use a ground block [like the SAT feeds] and connect it to a "known good ground".


I hope he took all that stuff off and tried to get the vertical lines when he hooked up the sat feeds. Sounds like he's got a lot of stuff hooked up and one of those devices might be feeding those vertical lines. Isolate everything except the sat feeds. Has he done that?

Rich


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

rich584 said:


> His TV should be grounded thru his houses wiring system. Wonder if he has receptacles with ground prongs? Easy way to check if he has. Put a voltmeter lead into the smaller of the two vertical holes in the receptacle and the other lead into the ground hole in the receptacle. If you get about 120 volts, your TV is grounded.
> 
> Rich


Yeah, to me the concept of ground gets blurry when I see that the neutral (white wires) and the ground wires (bare copper) are tied together (secretly hidden inside the electrical panel)... That confused the heck out me the first time I saw that... I mean what's the difference between my ground, and the neutral from the electric company? Are they (theoretically) at the same ground (potential), or do I need to remind myself that my ground is a path to ground in case there is a problem with any of the neutrals, including the electric company's?

I've think seen older homes (much older) where there was no ground provided by the electric company, it was just the two hot 110 lines... The ground was provided at the house? Does this make any sense at all? I'm going on memory here, from when I helped my father-in-law with an "The air conditioning does work." problem (turns out it was a bad breaker).

Anyway, back to 's problem... If you don't have a volt-meter (or don't feel comfortable sticking metal objects into receptacles), I suggest something like this:

http://www.extech.com/instrument/products/alpha/ET15.html

For a few dollars more, you can also buy one with a push button that can test GFI receptacles/circuits (very handy to determine which outlets are GFI, especially when "regular"outlets are ties to the GFI).

OK, wife is home... Gotta go...

PS. Really looking forward to hearing how this works out... Oh, and I have that IG receptacle... More on that later.


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## frogg (Nov 18, 2005)

By the way, Eric, your drip loops on your lines in and out of the sat grounding block look like they are upside down, while your neighbor's install looks correct. Or am I just "loopy"?


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

frogg said:


> By the way, Eric, your drip loops on your lines in and out of the sat grounding block look like they are upside down, while your neighbor's install looks correct. Or am I just "loopy"?


Yeah, that wasn't the best install, was it? I plan to fix it, but they are under the roof line (eve ?), so It's not that big of a deal... I also had to straighten out one of the boots, and tighten up the split-nut ground lug... Tsk, Tsk... No wonder some people have problems.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> Hmmm, grounding the TV might be the answer. But I don't know about grounding it using the antenna input. Right now I have a cable going into the antenna input to feed the kiddie cams/Tivos from my in-house modulator.
> 
> this TV uses a regulare computer power cable with 3-prongs. Why wouldn't it ground thru that 3rd prong? I have tried 2 different power cables and 2 different outlets on different circuits.
> 
> John


If the "kiddie cam" is the source of the grounding problem, using a 75 ohm DC block on the TV input, "might be" the simplest solution.


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> Yeah, to me the concept of ground gets blurry when I see that the neutral (white wires) and the ground wires (bare copper) are tied together (secretly hidden inside the electrical panel)... That confused the heck out me the first time I saw that... I mean what's the difference between my ground, and the neutral from the electric company? Are they (theoretically) at the same ground (potential), or do I need to remind myself that my ground is a path to ground in case there is a problem with any of the neutrals, including the electric company's?
> 
> I've think seen older homes (much older) where there was no ground provided by the electric company, it was just the two hot 110 lines... The ground was provided at the house? Does this make any sense at all? I'm going on memory here, from when I helped my father-in-law with an "The air conditioning does work." problem (turns out it was a bad breaker).
> 
> ...


Wow, a lot if info since last time I posted yesterday. Sorry I couldn't be around sooner, DW had to work half day today (Saturday) so I had the 3 kids (2 year old twins and a 3.5 year old).

Anyway, I brought that exact oultet tester home from work yesteray (coincidence). I tested the outlets in question, and other random ones thru the house. All show 2 yellow lights = correct .

So I was thinking "what is different about this TV than the other TV that had no problems?". Then it hit me. This one HAS a ground (3 prong plug), the other one does not. So I plugged this one in with a 2 prong adapter (so it wasn't grounded) and the lines went away. Removed the adapter, lines are back. It seems certain that I have a ground loop problem. But what the source is, I don't know. It may even be more than one thing. It's not the kiddie cams, they are wireless...the little receivers are just 2 prong plugs. I am going to reground the dish today, make sure all connections are secure and tight, then start unplugging various devices to see what is causing the problem.

I'll report back.
John


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I hope he took all that stuff off and tried to get the vertical lines when he hooked up the sat feeds. Sounds like he's got a lot of stuff hooked up and one of those devices might be feeding those vertical lines. Isolate everything except the sat feeds. Has he done that?
> 
> Rich


Gonna work on that today, will report back.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

"floating" the TV isn't the best thing to do.
"Try" setting up "the lines" and then remove the "kiddie cam" feed to the TV.
If they go away, then a DC block on this would work.
If they don't go away, then look into the SAT grounds.


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "floating" the TV isn't the best thing to do.
> "Try" setting up "the lines" and then remove the "kiddie cam" feed to the TV.
> If they go away, then a DC block on this would work.
> If they don't go away, then look into the SAT grounds.


"floating" the TV. Yeah, that was just to test and confirm the issue is with the ground. It is not my fix.

Question. I was just outside checking my ground from the SAT. I have 2 pairs of feeds from the SAT (for 2 recievers + 2 for HR21). Each of these pairs has a ground wire as part of the bundle. The installer that installed the HR21 did not attach the ground wire on the 2nd pair that he ran. The ground wire runs up to the dish and is cut just before the base. Shouldn't that be attached to the SAT mount somewhere?

I'm going to go do some disconnecting of devices and see what else I can figure out. I'll post back in a bit.

But my question remains, should the SAT be grounded? and if so, where?
John


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Ya know, the concept of a floating ground always gets me... I mean as long as the neutral is good, isn't it the same as the ground? The ground is only there in case a problem develops with the device's _internal neutral_, right (and to prevent you from becoming the path to neutral/ground)? So if the current can't flow from hot to neutral, it could also take the ground path, which still may be the exact same thing as neutral path (at he panel, and assuming the there is no problem with power company's neutral).

Now that you mention isolating the ground on the TV, that's what I ended up doing to fix the cable TV to PC card problem at my Mom's... I had to isolate the PC from the house ground, then it worked. Something was, and in your case it seems is, using that ground for some other (dastardly) purpose. I came to the conclusion the same why as you: The cable box and TV in the living room had no ground prong, but the PC did.

Well great detective work on isolating another player in this problem. I wonder, if maybe now it is time to break out the voltmeter and test for any difference in potential between hot and ground, neutral and ground, and even neutral and ground. I'll bet the lights in that tester can't pic up smaller voltages? If I recall, looking at an outlet so ground is at the bottom (looks like a face) hot is right and neutral is left.

Fascinating thread guys, thanks... Oh, IG receptacle pics will be along soon.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

jangelj said:


> Question. I was just outside checking my ground from the SAT. I have 2 pairs of feeds from the SAT (for 2 recievers + 2 for HR21). Each of these pairs has a ground wire as part of the bundle. The installer that installed the HR21 did not attach the ground wire on the 2nd pair that he ran. The ground wire runs up to the dish and is cut just before the base. Shouldn't that be attached to the SAT mount somewhere?


If the run is only between the dish and the grounding block, then I'd say no, that run of coax does not need to be grounded...

In a good install anyways...

*But* looking at your grounding blocks again, are both blocks connected to each other? It looks like they are, but maybe there IS a difference in potential at the block... It looks a bit rusty (hope I'm looking at the right pic) and maybe the two blocks are not properly bonded to each other? Got an ohm meter?


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> If the run is only between the dish and the grounding block, then I'd say no, that run of coax does not need to be grounded...
> 
> In a good install anyways...
> 
> *But* looking at your grounding blocks again, are both blocks connected to each other? It looks like they are, but maybe there IS a difference in potential at the block... It looks a bit rusty (hope I'm looking at the right pic) and maybe the two blocks are not properly bonded to each other? Got an ohm meter?


Alright. Got more info.
I disconnected EVERYTHING AV related except the HR21 in the living room and the TV in the bedroom. Still had lines. I unplugged all the other connections in the back of the HR21 (Phone, network, composite to modulator, etc. Still had lines as long as the SAT feeds were plugged in. So I ungrounded the blocks (they are touching, but not what I would think would be properly bonded) and voila!, no lines. My DW was in the bedroom looking at the TV and I was outside. Each time I touched the green ground wire to the block, lines, remove green wire, no lines. Every time. So something is feeding back on my ground in my house. I have no idea what it is or what it could be. Short (no pun intended) of flipping every breaker or unplugging everything, it could be hard to track down. I have tried a few of the obvious...fans, lights, etc, but I have 2 fridges, a freezer, AC, hot water, etc.

My proposed solution is to buy a ground stake (8 ft?) and ground the block myself. Is that a decent solution?

BTW, I have an ohm meter, what should I be checking for?

John


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> I mean as long as the neutral is good, isn't it the same as the ground? The ground is only there in case a problem develops with the device's _internal neutral_, right (and to prevent you from becoming the path to neutral/ground)? So if the current can't flow from hot to neutral, it could also take the ground path, which still may be the exact same thing as neutral path (at he panel, and assuming the there is no problem with power company's neutral).


While a neutral and ground may connect at the same place, why are NOT the same.
The neutral does not connect to the Chassis. It is simply the AC return.
A ground does connect to the chassis and "normally" has no voltage.
If you were to cut the neutral and measure the voltage between the two ends, you'd see 110+ volts.
If you do the same with a ground, it should be zero volts.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> Alright. Got more info.
> I disconnected EVERYTHING AV related except the HR21 in the living room and the TV in the bedroom. Still had lines. I unplugged all the other connections in the back of the HR21 (Phone, network, composite to modulator, etc. Still had lines as long as the SAT feeds were plugged in. So I ungrounded the blocks (they are touching, but not what I would think would be properly bonded) and voila!, no lines. My DW was in the bedroom looking at the TV and I was outside. Each time I touched the green ground wire to the block, lines, remove green wire, no lines. Every time. So something is feeding back on my ground in my house. I have no idea what it is or what it could be. Short (no pun intended) of flipping every breaker or unplugging everything, it could be hard to track down. I have tried a few of the obvious...fans, lights, etc, but I have 2 fridges, a freezer, AC, hot water, etc.
> 
> My proposed solution is to buy a ground stake (8 ft?) and ground the block myself. Is that a decent solution?
> ...


So far:
Either the SAT ground isn't as good as the TV ground is, or the SAT ground is better than the TV ground.
"I might try": connecting a wire to my water pipe and then measuring the resistance between the TV ground and "this wire" and then the SAT feed ground and "this wire".
"I'd guess" the SAT feed would be lower than the TV ground, which would mean the TV ground "needs work".


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Read the link, those have been around for years. A good electrical inspector will have one when he checks new or updated circuitry. They do work very well and are very dependable. But, gee, doesn't everyone have a multimeter in their toolbox?

You discovered something that very few people realize. The ground and the neutral wires have the same potential. When you get service to your house it is 220 volts with a neutral wire, so you have three wires coming in. In the main circuit breaker box the ground of the house and the neutral are "bonded" and either of the two "hot" wires will read 110 volts to ground or to the white or neutral wire. In a perfect world. If you get an electrician that knows what he is doing. I've known a lot of terrible electricians, and who better to judge an electrician than an electrician?

Rich



EricJRW said:


> Yeah, to me the concept of ground gets blurry when I see that the neutral (white wires) and the ground wires (bare copper) are tied together (secretly hidden inside the electrical panel)... That confused the heck out me the first time I saw that... I mean what's the difference between my ground, and the neutral from the electric company? Are they (theoretically) at the same ground (potential), or do I need to remind myself that my ground is a path to ground in case there is a problem with any of the neutrals, including the electric company's?
> 
> I've think seen older homes (much older) where there was no ground provided by the electric company, it was just the two hot 110 lines... The ground was provided at the house? Does this make any sense at all? I'm going on memory here, from when I helped my father-in-law with an "The air conditioning does work." problem (turns out it was a bad breaker).
> 
> ...


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Before you go thru all that testing, go to a Home Depot and buy a GFI that has a male and female plug built in. That will detect any voltage between neutral and hot wires that should not be there.

Rich



EricJRW said:


> Ya know, the concept of a floating ground always gets me... I mean as long as the neutral is good, isn't it the same as the ground? The ground is only there in case a problem develops with the device's _internal neutral_, right (and to prevent you from becoming the path to neutral/ground)? So if the current can't flow from hot to neutral, it could also take the ground path, which still may be the exact same thing as neutral path (at he panel, and assuming the there is no problem with power company's neutral).
> 
> Now that you mention isolating the ground on the TV, that's what I ended up doing to fix the cable TV to PC card problem at my Mom's... I had to isolate the PC from the house ground, then it worked. Something was, and in your case it seems is, using that ground for some other (dastardly) purpose. I came to the conclusion the same why as you: The cable box and TV in the living room had no ground prong, but the PC did.
> 
> ...


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Before you go thru all that testing, go to a Home Depot and buy a GFI that has a male and female plug built in. That will detect any voltage between neutral and hot wires that should not be there.
> 
> Rich


I can't make it to HD today, but maybe tomorrow or the next day.

As VOS said 
"So far:
Either the SAT ground isn't as good as the TV ground is, or the SAT ground is better than the TV ground.
"I might try": connecting a wire to my water pipe and then measuring the resistance between the TV ground and "this wire" and then the SAT feed ground and "this wire".
"I'd guess" the SAT feed would be lower than the TV ground, which would mean the TV ground "needs work"."

Question, is there something I can test between the TV ground and the SAT feed ground? In other words, if the TV ground is different than the ground on the block outside that the SAT feeds are connected to, how would I test for that?

I have an ohm meter, just don't know how to do this test. But it seems easier than trying to find a water pipe that is nowhere near the TV or the SAT. I can test the SAT and a receptacle in the house since they are right next to each other in the living room. Does that make sense?

Also, is it possible that the grounds are good (TV and SAT), but something in the house is shorted looping noise into the ground. (again, I know my terminology sucks, but I am doing the best I can)

John


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

jangelj said:


> Also, is it possible that the grounds are good (TV and SAT), but something in the house is shorted looping noise into the ground. (again, I know my terminology sucks, but I am doing the best I can)
> 
> John


I think what you might be looking for is a loose, or shorted to ground, neutral line somewhere in the house. I would go through the entire house and test every recepticle and giving the tester a good wiggle at each also. Remove wall plate if necessary. You're looking for signs of sloppy wiring. If you're not sure what correct wiring looks like, get a wiring book at HD with pictures. 

What era was the house built? Any signs of handyman work, refinished basement, etc.? If so, you want to *know* the polarity and ground are correct at every recepticle.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> I can't make it to HD today, but maybe tomorrow or the next day.
> 
> As VOS said
> "So far:
> ...


And he is correct in every instance, and is assuming that you understand. And you don't. What seems simple to us, is actually very difficult for the layman to understand. Let me see if I can make this simpler.



> Question, is there something I can test between the TV ground and the SAT feed ground? In other words, if the TV ground is different than the ground on the block outside that the SAT feeds are connected to, how would I test for that?


With an ohmmeter. I see you have one. Set it for "ohms" and set it at the most sensitive level for resistance. You have two leads coming from the ohmmeter, one red and one black. Take the leads and put the probes together. You will note the ohmmeter reads "0". That means there is no resistance between the probes. Separate them. Now you are reading "infinity" or an infinite amount of resistance. With me so far?

Place one lead on the TV ground and the other lead goes to the sat block. You should read "0" or no resistance. If you read resistance of any sort, you have a grounding problem.



> I have an ohm meter, just don't know how to do this test. But it seems easier than trying to find a water pipe that is nowhere near the TV or the SAT. I can test the SAT and a receptacle in the house since they are right next to each other in the living room. Does that make sense?


You are quite correct. And also in danger of destroying your ohmmeter if you put a probe in the wrong place and the receptacle is "hot". If you can, shut the breaker off that feeds the receptacle.

In any event, one lead goes to the sat cable and the other to the rounded hole in the wall receptacle. That's not a typo, the "rounded" hole is the "grounded" hole. The smallest of the two side by side vertical holes is the "hot" and the larger the "neutral". Same with the male plugs.



> Also, is it possible that the grounds are good (TV and SAT), but something in the house is shorted looping noise into the ground. (again, I know my terminology sucks, but I am doing the best I can)


You're doing well. Is it possible that the grounds are equal on both the sat cable and the ground on the receptacle? Yes. But VOS sounds pretty adamant about this and from what I've seen in today's posts, it definitely sounds like a ground problem.

The unfortunate thing is that you have no access to a megohm meter. That meter induces 600 volts across it's leads and gives better resistance readings. I don't think you're going to see much of a difference when you use the ohmmeter. I don't think the situation VOS suggests needs much voltage to exist. And I think you've proved him right.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Rich has done a good job.
"Why" the water pipe wire: if you do read "ohms" between the TV & SAT ground, which one is bad?
"The idea" is to have a fairly good ground [the water pipe & wire] as a reference. "1 ohm" to SAT is good, while "100 ohms" to TV ground is bad, but if you just measured TV to SAT you might only get 101 ohms. While a good check, it doesn't tell you which one is "bad". [just examples not to be used as "good/bad"].


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> While a neutral and ground may connect at the same place, why are NOT the same.
> The neutral does not connect to the Chassis. It is simply the AC return.
> A ground does connect to the chassis and "normally" has no voltage.
> If you were to cut the neutral and measure the voltage between the two ends, you'd see 110+ volts.
> If you do the same with a ground, it should be zero volts.


All correct statements. I have a feeling that if GFIs had been used in the receptacles in his house, they would have picked up the problem and tripped. I should have thought of that yesterday. They detect any reference to ground that should not be there. And they work on "double insulated" tools and two prong appliances, too. Any leakage from the "hot" wire to the "neutral" or the "ground".

I never really got into how they work, I just know they do and they do it at low and high levels of leakage.

Best way to test one: If you have a pool, the pump will be plugged into a GFI receptacle. Remove the pump plug and place an extension cord plug in the GFI. Now throw the extension cord in the pool. The GFI will trip virtually instantaneously.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Rich has done a good job.
> "Why" the water pipe wire: if you do read "ohms" between the TV & SAT ground, which one is bad?
> "The idea" is to have a fairly good ground [the water pipe & wire] as a reference. "1 ohm" to SAT is good, while "100 ohms" to TV ground is bad, but if you just measured TV to SAT you might only get 101 ohms. While a good check, it doesn't tell you which one is "bad". [just examples not to be used as "good/bad"].


True, I was guilty of assuming that he would understand that. That was just the initial check I would have taken. This is making me "loopy" again. I figured that once the fault was discovered a hunt for the exact place would occur. And I didn't feel like explaining how to do that. That five foot copper rod is beginning to sound like the easiest solution. Wonder what kind of ground his house is on. That would be the "path of least resistance". Resulting in a whole lot less work.

So, what do you think? Are the great majority of what people refer to as "ground loops" just the product of crappy wiring practices? Sure sounds like it to me.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> So, what do you think? Are the great majority of what people refer to as "ground loops" just the product of crappy wiring practices? Sure sounds like it to me.
> Rich


 
Aside from a few exotic test setups [at work], the only time I've had a "ground" issue was when the CATV [the last two times I've had/tried it] was what was using "my ground" and a simple DC block on "their cable" stopped it.
If I were to guess: just the product of crappy wiring/practices [too].


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

UPDATE: Okay, I see this is pretty much a duplication of what has been said already. Maybe seeing it explained a different way will help with the fundamentals. Please let me know if I missed anything. I've never really thought about this quite so much, but since it applies to my situation as well, I'm really getting into it. 


jangelj said:


> BTW, I have an ohm meter, what should I be checking for?





jangelj said:


> Question, is there something I can test between the TV ground and the SAT feed ground? In other words, if the TV ground is different than the ground on the block outside that the SAT feeds are connected to, how would I test for that?


First, here's my quick "word of advice" - I suspect a decent VOM (volt ohm meter) is protected if you happen to try to measure ohms on a "hot" circuit, but I will typically check for voltage on a "wild" circuit before I test for continuity. I have two Fluke meters, and I'm pretty sure I could measure ohms across hot circuit and I would not fry them, but from my "old days", it's just a habit I got into...

One more quick and dirty (Was this done? I just thought of it so I moved it to the top of the post.) is to move the 3-prong TV to be next to the HR21... That way they can share the same outlet.

That being said, and sorry if this was already covered (I wanted to post that tip ASAP, and I just skimmed the new posts), here's what I would do... I'm not sure all steps are required, it's just data gathering...

At both the HR21 receptacle, and the TV receptacle:

1. Measure for AC voltage between
a) Hot and neutral - Should be ~120
b) Hot and ground - Should be ~120 (indicating good ground, 0 would mean no ground, or hot and neutral are reversed)
c) Neutral and ground - Should be 0 (if it's ~120, then hot and neutral may be reversed).

Note: The tester that you already used should have done all this, so I think you're OK.

Now that I have confidence in my receptacles, I would measure the impedance (ohms) between the various grounds:

2. If you have a cold water ground point like me (photo above), I'd find an outlet close to that (or use and 3-conductor extension cord) and measure the resistance between ground point and the ground of the outlet. Since, in my case, if my ground on the pipe is not good, I'd expect high ohms or an open circuit. The ohms from this test will help determine if other values are reasonable.

Note: I'd make sure I had zero ohms between the ground wire/clamp and the pipe too. That's also on my list.

3. Receptacle ground and the coax shield at the HR21 - If both have the same reference (common ground), the value should be similar to step 2.

4. Receptacle ground at the HR21 and receptacle ground at the TV. Again, might need a 3-conductor extension cord, but the value should be similar to step 2.

5. Lastly, assuming steps 2 through 4 look good, I'd run that extension cord from the receptacle used in step 2 to the ground block outside, and make sure both blocks are also at the same reference as all other grounds.

If any one of those tests shows high impedance, or open, it means not all are at the same ground reference.

Other than the outlet by outlet test described above, the other thing to do (early on) is pop the cover on the electrical box and see if there are any obvious grounds that are not tied in inside the panel...

We obviously know there is a bad ground, but is it the receptacle at the HR21, the TV, or ground block? Every time I think I can deduce the answer, I doubt myself... So I'll think I'll just reserve comment and see what happens next.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> Every time I think I can deduce the answer, I doubt myself... So I'll think I'll just reserve comment and see what happens next.


Do you still need a definition for becoming "loopy"? :lol:


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

EricJRW said:


> Other than the outlet by outlet test described above, the other thing to do (early on) is pop the cover on the electrical box and see if there are any obvious grounds that are not tied in inside the panel...


A typical screwup occurs when wiring a recepticle and then pushing it into the electrical box during installation. A tester won't tell you if the bare copper ground wire is in contact with the neutral terminal screw since the neutral bus bar and the ground bus bar are tied together at main service panel. Ground on that entire circuit becomes part of the neutral leg. OP says his TV interference stops when he removes ground to the TV. Seems something on the ground that VOS says looks like 60 Hz AC is the source of problem.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

I made a new thread in the OT forum for my isolated ground (IG) receptacle question.

You can find it here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133655

:backtotop

Isn't there and OT emoticon too? Could have sworn I've seen one in a post, but did not see one in the [more] list.


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

2dogz said:


> I think what you might be looking for is a loose, or shorted to ground, neutral line somewhere in the house. I would go through the entire house and test every recepticle and giving the tester a good wiggle at each also. Remove wall plate if necessary. You're looking for signs of sloppy wiring. If you're not sure what correct wiring looks like, get a wiring book at HD with pictures.
> 
> What era was the house built? Any signs of handyman work, refinished basement, etc.? If so, you want to *know* the polarity and ground are correct at every recepticle.


I know more or less what an standard outlet wiring should look like. I think testing EVERY outlet is a good idea. It only takes on bad one to cause a problem. I will try to tackle this one tomorrow. (again, I have all 3 kids while DW has girls night out).

Also, the house was built in 1997. It seems to be a well-built house on the surface. There haven't been any alterations at all (basement, etc...plus I live in Florida ) I know there was 1 outlet added to the garage by a previous owner (well, not BY him, but he paid someone to do it). I'll double-check that outlet first.

I added a flourescent light to the garage, but just ran romex from the existing flourescent light to another spot in the garage and added a second 1. Seemed relatively simple and had no problems.

Thanks,
John


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> And he is correct in every instance, and is assuming that you understand. And you don't. What seems simple to us, is actually very difficult for the layman to understand. Let me see if I can make this simpler.
> 
> With an ohmmeter. I see you have one. Set it for "ohms" and set it at the most sensitive level for resistance. You have two leads coming from the ohmmeter, one red and one black. Take the leads and put the probes together. You will note the ohmmeter reads "0". That means there is no resistance between the probes. Separate them. Now you are reading "infinity" or an infinite amount of resistance. With me so far?
> 
> ...


I will test between the receptacle ground and SAT feed tomorrow. Right now the blocks outside are not grounded and it is pouring down rain (that seems bad now that I think about it, lightning and all). Also, I have the kiddos, so I will reconnect the ground and test tomorrow.
Thanks,
John


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> All correct statements. I have a feeling that if GFIs had been used in the receptacles in his house, they would have picked up the problem and tripped. I should have thought of that yesterday. They detect any reference to ground that should not be there. And they work on "double insulated" tools and two prong appliances, too. Any leakage from the "hot" wire to the "neutral" or the "ground".
> 
> I never really got into how they work, I just know they do and they do it at low and high levels of leakage.
> 
> ...


There are at least a couple of ciruits with GFIs. The usual places you'd expect them. Bathroom outlets and one in the garage that trips the outlets on the exterior of the house. Come to think of it, the one in the garage tripped about a month ago and shut off the exterior receptacles. I never figured out what tripped it, but I was not home and mom-in-law and wife have no clue.

Is it worth installed a GFI where all my electronics are?

John


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> True, I was guilty of assuming that he would understand that. That was just the initial check I would have taken. This is making me "loopy" again. I figured that once the fault was discovered a hunt for the exact place would occur. And I didn't feel like explaining how to do that. That five foot copper rod is beginning to sound like the easiest solution. Wonder what kind of ground his house is on. That would be the "path of least resistance". Resulting in a whole lot less work.
> 
> So, what do you think? Are the great majority of what people refer to as "ground loops" just the product of crappy wiring practices? Sure sounds like it to me.
> 
> Rich


Sorry for my ignorance. I understand some of the basics just from wiring up some lights and switches and reading about it...but my education is in IT, so when it comes to the real sciences I am lacking for sure. 

john


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> UPDATE: Okay, I see this is pretty much a duplication of what has been said already. Maybe seeing it explained a different way will help with the fundamentals. Please let me know if I missed anything. I've never really thought about this quite so much, but since it applies to my situation as well, I'm really getting into it.
> 
> First, here's my quick "word of advice" - I suspect a decent VOM (volt ohm meter) is protected if you happen to try to measure ohms on a "hot" circuit, but I will typically check for voltage on a "wild" circuit before I test for continuity. I have two Fluke meters, and I'm pretty sure I could measure ohms across hot circuit and I would not fry them, but from my "old days", it's just a habit I got into...
> 
> One more quick and dirty (Was this done? I just thought of it so I moved it to the top of the post.) is to move the 3-prong TV to be next to the HR21... That way they can share the same outlet..


Well, that TV weighs 137 lbs (heaviest LCD made, I think). Instead, I ran an extension from the outlet where the HR21 is to the bedroom (where the TV is) so it was on the same outlet. It had the same result. Lines when connected with component and when the SAT feed was connected. No lines when SAT feed not connected.



EricJRW said:


> That being said, and sorry if this was already covered (I wanted to post that tip ASAP, and I just skimmed the new posts), here's what I would do... I'm not sure all steps are required, it's just data gathering...
> 
> At both the HR21 receptacle, and the TV receptacle:
> 
> ...


I did this already, too. Got 121 and change between hot+neutral and hot+ground. 0 between neutral and ground.



EricJRW said:


> Now that I have confidence in my receptacles, I would measure the impedance (ohms) between the various grounds:
> 
> 2. If you have a cold water ground point like me (photo above), I'd find an outlet close to that (or use and 3-conductor extension cord) and measure the resistance between ground point and the ground of the outlet. Since, in my case, if my ground on the pipe is not good, I'd expect high ohms or an open circuit. The ohms from this test will help determine if other values are reasonable.
> 
> ...


I plan on doing a lot of this tomorrow. I'll post back. I don't know where my house ground is. The ground on the SAT blocks goes into the external wall (see pics on page 1 of this thread). I don't know there that goes. My buddy lives across town and knows a little more than I do. He says he has a double wall plate in one of his rooms on with an exterior wall. Behind that plate is a big-ass stake going into the ground. I have a plate in an exterior wall and will open it up tomorrow, too (that room is occupied for the night).

I'll also open the electrical box. No small feat since I have an big, upright freezer in front of it. Ugh! 
I have never seen a ground on a water pipe. I know where the main water comes into the house and there def. is not a wire there. There is no other access to piping in the house. It is all in the slab or walls. I'll open the electrical box and see what I can see.

John


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

2dogz said:


> A typical screwup occurs when wiring a recepticle and then pushing it into the electrical box during installation. A tester won't tell you if the bear copper ground wire is in contact with the neutral terminal screw since the neutral bus bar and the ground bus bar are tied together at main service panel. Ground on that entire circuit becomes part of the neutral leg. OP says his TV interference stops when he removes ground to the TV. Seems something on the ground that VOS says looks like 60 Hz AC is the source of problem.


If there is something on the ground (as VOS says) that looks lik 60 Hz, does that narrow down what it might be? What would put out 60 Hz? Is that only TV's and the like, or could it really be anything (fridge, freezer, lights)?

John


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

jangelj said:


> If there is something on the ground (as VOS says) that looks lik 60 Hz, does that narrow down what it might be? What would put out 60 Hz? Is that only TV's and the like, or could it really be anything (fridge, freezer, lights)?
> 
> John


I would concentrate on the branch circuit that the TV is having a problem on. Something close is the cause, either wiring goofup that I speculated above, or some appliance that is plugged into the circuit (wife's hair curler heater, whatever). Since your home is fairly new, you might have arc fault circuit interupters in bedroom circuits (AFCI). They probably don't go bad often, but they could be miswired.

One thing I don't remember you saying, how long are these componet cables from the HR to this problem TV? They are typically unshielded and should be as far as possible from AC circuits Running along a baseboard might be parallel to AC circuit inside of wall and induct energy from it.

Just thinking here while watching the baseball game.


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

Shouldn't say componet cables are unshielded. Cheap ones may be may have minimum shielding though.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

jangelj said:


> Well, that TV weighs 137 lbs (heaviest LCD made, I think). Instead, I ran an extension from the outlet where the HR21 is to the bedroom (where the TV is) so it was on the same outlet. It had the same result. Lines when connected with component and when the SAT feed was connected. No lines when SAT feed not connected.


Very clever...

IMHO, that makes me think that the problem is due to a major difference in the ground potential between the ground block and whatever you house is (or isn't using). The steps describe will certainly help determine that...

Right now my bet would be somehow the two ground points are not bonded to each other... But then again it could be outside my realm of understanding (which means I get to learn smarting new).

Good luck!


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

OK, I had 5 minutes this morning to start checking outlets. Using the 3 light tester from the earlier post, I see that the one outlet that was added in the garage by previous owner has hot and neutral reversed. Could that be the source of the whole problem? Could I be so lucky as to find it that easily?

DW promises to get the kids out of the house later to give me an hour or so of time to test. Maybe I should start with that outlet?

Also, the component cables are long (75ft), but they work fine when either the TV or SAT block are not grounded. Also, I have a 50' component cable that I used as a test cable. It does the same thing. I know that is a long cable, 75', but that seemed like the simplest way to get a HD signal from HR21 into the bedroom.

john


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

Got it!
I corrected the wiring on the outlet in the garage, but it made no difference. So I shut off all the breakers except the bedroom where the TV is and the living room where the HR21 is. I grounded the SAT blocks. No lines.

Then I turned on breakers in groups till the lines appeared, then further narrowed it down one at a time till I discovered the circuit that was the culprit. Then I unplugged everything and tested all outlets (no small task since the office is on the circuit with 3 PCs, cables strewn about behind book shelves...ugh!) . They all show OK using the tester from much earlier in the thread. Then I plugged in things one at a time till the lines appeared (a lot of walking back and forth today!) till I discovered a Vornado heater/fan in the kids room that was the problem. It is just used as a fan for white noise while they sleep. I do most of my testing at night after they go down, so it was always on when I tested. Interestingly enough, the heater/fan has a thermostat on it which is just turned down real low so the heat is not used. The lines only appear when the thermostat is on...even though it is very low and the heat never kicks on. I turned it to "fan only" setting and there were no lines. I have another identical unit that does not have this problem, but it is rarely used (guest room).

Well, the good news is that I have a well grounded SAT block, a correctly wired recptacle in the garage, and have become intimately familiar with exactly what is on every breaker in my box 

Thanks to everyone for their advice and help. I never would have thought a heater/fan would have been the issue. BTW, it is only a 2 prong plug, so I guess the noise was getting to ground through neutral.

John


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Aside from a few exotic test setups [at work], the only time I've had a "ground" issue was when the CATV [the last two times I've had/tried it] was what was using "my ground" and a simple DC block on "their cable" stopped it.
> If I were to guess: just the product of crappy wiring/practices [too].


Sure seems like it. Even that squib from Wackypedia sounded like shoddy wiring practices. And naturally some clown had to come up with a name for that shoddy wiring. Loopy grounds = loopy electricians or, even worse, loopy, untrained installers.

100 degrees here this afternoon. May the Force of Fred watch over my air conditioner.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> Got it!
> I corrected the wiring on the outlet in the garage, but it made no difference. So I shut off all the breakers except the bedroom where the TV is and the living room where the HR21 is. I grounded the SAT blocks. No lines.
> 
> Then I turned on breakers in groups till the lines appeared, then further narrowed it down one at a time till I discovered the circuit that was the culprit. Then I unplugged everything and tested all outlets (no small task since the office is on the circuit with 3 PCs, cables strewn about behind book shelves...ugh!) . They all show OK using the tester from much earlier in the thread. Then I plugged in things one at a time till the lines appeared (a lot of walking back and forth today!) till I discovered a Vornado heater/fan in the kids room that was the problem. It is just used as a fan for white noise while they sleep. I do most of my testing at night after they go down, so it was always on when I tested. Interestingly enough, the heater/fan has a thermostat on it which is just turned down real low so the heat is not used. The lines only appear when the thermostat is on...even though it is very low and the heat never kicks on. I turned it to "fan only" setting and there were no lines. I have another identical unit that does not have this problem, but it is rarely used (guest room).
> ...





> Thanks to everyone for their advice and help. I never would have thought a heater/fan would have been the issue. BTW, it is only a 2 prong plug, so I guess the noise was getting to ground through neutral.


No, what you are seeing is the juice leaking a little bit from the hot wire to the neutral wire. A GFI would have caught that. Throw that fan out!

Good troubleshooting! Smart. Well done.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> If there is something on the ground (as VOS says) that looks lik 60 Hz, does that narrow down what it might be? What would put out 60 Hz? Is that only TV's and the like, or could it really be anything (fridge, freezer, lights)?
> 
> John


In the US, the standard for electricity is 60 cycles per second. Anything could have caused that.

In Europe, if I remember correctly, the standard is 50 Hertz.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> Sorry for my ignorance. I understand some of the basics just from wiring up some lights and switches and reading about it...but my education is in IT, so when it comes to the real sciences I am lacking for sure.
> 
> john


Ignorance is good. The troubling thing that people do is try to wire their houses themselves. You wouldn't believe the botched wiring I've seen, even from certified electricians.

Remember, there is no such thing as the Science of Electricity. All we can do is trust the Theory and the code books.

Glad everything is OK, been a good day, the Yankees won and all is well with our little corner of Cyberspace.

Rich


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

Congrats, glad you found it. Only costs you time and energy. But pay off in satisfaction of getting it fixed is worth it.

Good find of that gargage recepticle. Most things, tools and such, wouldn't care. Then you plug something else in, usually something electronic, and it goes wacko.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Nicely done! 

Got to give props to VOS for recognizing that as 60Hz (post #3)... 

Definitely going to keep your findings tucked away for future reference.


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> No, what you are seeing is the juice leaking a little bit from the hot wire to the neutral wire. A GFI would have caught that. Throw that fan out!
> 
> Good troubleshooting! Smart. Well done.
> 
> Rich


Are you saying that if I plug that fan into my GFI in the bathroom it will trip it? Hmmm. Interesting. I think I'll try that (tomorrow, the twins are in bed already).

Thanks again to all you guys. You were so patient explaining stuff to me that was simple to you, but needed "dumbing down" for me. I really appreciate you taking the time to help a complete stranger out.

BTW, if you have any ideas of a better way to get an HD signal about 60 feet up, over and down to the bedroom, I am all ears. The componenet signal looks good, really good, but it's definitely not HDMI. It could be a little better for sure. Have you tried CAT6 and baluns? Maybe a subject for another post. 

THanks again,
John


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> Are you saying that if I plug that fan into my GFI in the bathroom it will trip it? Hmmm. Interesting. I think I'll try that (tomorrow, the twins are in bed already).
> 
> Thanks again to all you guys. You were so patient explaining stuff to me that was simple to you, but needed "dumbing down" for me. I really appreciate you taking the time to help a complete stranger out.
> THanks again,
> John


I've been thinking about this for a while.
I'm not sure if:

 the Fan is miss wired, where it should trip a GFI, or
The plug it was connected to is miss wired [ground and neutral swapped]. I doubt the "tester" would know, since both are tried to ground at the power panel.
It might be worth opening up the wall plug and doing a visual inspection.
It seems more likely that the plug is miss wired, as it's only a two prong plug [right?], so the most likely way to have 60 cycles on the TV ground is for the "fan" to be using it [the ground] as a return for the hot leg.
If you don't find it at the wall plug, I'd trace the circuit to the breaker.


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> the Fan is miss wired, where it should trip a GFI, or
> The plug it was connected to is miss wired [ground and neutral swapped]. I doubt the "tester" would know, since both are tried to ground at the power panel.


I think the problem is simply the rheostat in the fan/heater appliance.These things have been causing problems with electronic equipment since forever. Think back in the day with problems with modems in PCs. Dimmer light switches often the cause.

Pretty hard to confuse the white neutral wire with the bare copper ground wire even for the dumbest electrician trainee. Now for Joe Handyman, anything is possible.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Well once I realized that ground/neutral are electrically connected (kind of my personal epiphany a while back), if there was something that was noisy on the circuit (the fan) whether or not it had a ground would still mean noise on the circuit (just like 2dogz's dimmer example).

So the fan is noisy, puts 60Hz on the neutral, which means that 60Hz is also on the ground. That's why isolating the TV and/or removing the coax (grounded shield) solved the problem...

Now it still hurts my head as to why both those tests worked, but it seems that both the HR and the TV are sensitive to the 60Hz interface on the ground, which was being placed there by the fan... Unless there is still something funky with the wiring, I can't quite get my head around why the HR can pass it (when coax is in) and the TV can display it (At least if my understanding is correct - 60Hz lines can be removed by either removing coax at the HR OR isolating ground on TV). It seems it should be just one, but I can't quite figure out which one... So I find it easier to think both play a role (somehow).

I wonder if an RF filter would help? Could that 60Hz be filtered out somewhere? Or maybe it's just easier to replace the fan?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

By-passing Ohm's law [for now]: You can't have [develop] voltage across a short [zero ohms]. Some resistance is needed to have voltage.
With "the fan", TV and DVR, it seems the 60 cycle [voltage]: came from the "fan", through the TV ground, "looping" through to the ground of the SAT feeds.
Turning off the "fan" [unplugging], floating the TV ground [removing], or unplugging the SAT feeds, would "open" the circuit.
The SAT ground has the lowest resistance.
The TV [house ground] has a higher resistance ground than the SAT feeds. If they were "the same", voltage wouldn't "loop" through to the SAT feeds.
If the "Fan" has only a two prong plug, it shouldn't affect the ground, since it's voltage/current is on the hot & neutral legs. 
This is a ground problem, and not an RFI problem.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> Are you saying that if I plug that fan into my GFI in the bathroom it will trip it? Hmmm. Interesting. I think I'll try that (tomorrow, the twins are in bed already).


I would expect it to. But, you never know. Let us know if it does trip and then throw the damn thing out. If it does not trip the GFI, throw the damn thing out anyhow.

The GFIs are made to detect (I don't know how) any leakage between the "hot" and "neutral" wires. Sounds like you had just a little leakage but not enough to trip a regular breaker. If that GFI doesn't trip, take your multimeter into the bathroom and set it to AC voltage (I'm assuming your ohmmeter is a multimeter) and put one probe into the smaller of the two vertical slots and the other probe onto the screw of the cover of the GFI. The GFI should trip when you do this and all receptacles "downstream" of the GFI will trip also. As soon as it trips, you can hit the "reset" button and all the receptacles will be hot again.

I've been replacing all my receptacles with GFIs, or I should say I've been replacing the first receptacle with the GFI and that gives you protection for every receptacle "downstream" of the GFI. Not "upstream" tho.

I considered replacing all my breakers with GFI breakers, but I had a lot of troubles with GFI breakers when they first came out and using the receptacle method makes troubleshooting much easier.

I don't think that many people realize what a life saving device the GFI is. I think it is one of the most important inventions of the twentieth century.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I would expect it to. But, you never know. Let us know if it does trip and then throw the damn thing out. If it does not trip the GFI, throw the damn thing out anyhow.
> Rich


I would agree, but it's my nature to know why, so...
Since there are two fans, I'd see if both act this way. 
If they don't, then the "bad one" goes "away".
If they both do, then... 
Is it the fan or where it's plugged in?
If it's where it's plugged in, then there is a problem with the circuit.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I've been thinking about this for a while.
> I'm not sure if:
> 
> the Fan is miss wired, where it should trip a GFI, or
> ...


If the plug has the neutral and hot wires swapped, the tester he is using will definitely show that. He checked that receptacle. I would think the fan is the problem. And the problem with the fan is leakage between the hot and neutral wires due to some malfunction of the devices in the fan. Doesn't have to be a lot of leakage, just a tad. His tester will not pick that up, but a GFI should. Throwing the fan out should solve that problem. in time, the leakage would have increased and a short circuit would have occurred.

We had a guy take a healthy shock using a "double insulated" drill. Solved that problem by making every mechanic use a GFI when using ANY electrical tool. They carried a male to female GFI adapter with them at all times. It became a terminal offense not to use one. Once you put something like that in your safety procedures, even tho it is not an OSHA requirement, you supersede OSHA's requirements and it becomes mandatory under OSHA. Confusing?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

2dogz said:


> I think the problem is simply the rheostat in the fan/heater appliance.These things have been causing problems with electronic equipment since forever. Think back in the day with problems with modems in PCs. Dimmer light switches often the cause.


I agree. He did say something about turning the thermostat off in one of his posts.



> Pretty hard to confuse the white neutral wire with the bare copper ground wire even for the dumbest electrician trainee.


I'm sitting here chuckling. You wouldn't believe the things I've seen electricians with many, many years of experience do. The apprentices always have someone watching them (you hope) and their mistakes get corrected quickly (you hope).



> Now for Joe Handyman, anything is possible.


Fortunately, electricity is pretty forgiving and Joe Handyman gets away with things like switching the neutral instead of the hot wire (seen this happen many times). The switch will still turn the light on and off as it should, but you alway have a hot wire in the fixture and therein lies the danger.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> Well once I realized that ground/neutral are electrically connected (kind of my personal epiphany a while back), if there was something that was noisy on the circuit (the fan) whether or not it had a ground would still mean noise on the circuit (just like 2dogz's dimmer example).
> 
> So the fan is noisy, puts 60Hz on the neutral, which means that 60Hz is also on the ground. That's why isolating the TV and/or removing the coax (grounded shield) solved the problem...
> 
> ...


Throwing away the fan would be the smart thing to do. That little bit of leakage going on in the fan is going to become a short circuit sooner or later. These things never heal, they just get worse.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> If the plug has the neutral and hot wires swapped, the tester he is using will definitely show that. He checked that receptacle. I would think the fan is the problem. And the problem with the fan is leakage between the hot and neutral wires due to some malfunction of the devices in the fan. Doesn't have to be a lot of leakage, just a tad. His tester will not pick that up, but a GFI should. Throwing the fan out should solve that problem. in time, the leakage would have increased and a short circuit would have occurred.
> 
> We had a guy take a healthy shock using a "double insulated" drill. Solved that problem by making every mechanic use a GFI when using ANY electrical tool. They carried a male to female GFI adapter with them at all times. It became a terminal offense not to use one. Once you put something like that in your safety procedures, even tho it is not an OSHA requirement, you supersede OSHA's requirements and it becomes mandatory under OSHA. Confusing?
> 
> Rich


"defeative drill".
"leakage" from hot to neutral, is a bit  to me, as there is "a load" connecting them.
With "the fan" this was the thermostat circuit that was the problem. 
Not being "an expert" on GFIs, "I'd think", when the current differs [something like] 40 milliamps or more between the hot and neutral legs, it trips. "Leakage" between the two, would not, but "leakage" to anything else would.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I would agree, but it's my nature to know why, so...


That I am well aware of.



> Since there are two fans, I'd see if both act this way.


He did that, they don't.



> If they don't, then the "bad one" goes "away".


I hope so, or we've wasted a lot of time.



> Is it the fan or where it's plugged in?


If I've read everything correctly it is the fan. Shouldn't be a problem with the circuit.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I agree. He did say something about turning the thermostat off in one of his posts.
> 
> I'm sitting here chuckling. You wouldn't believe the things I've seen electricians with many, many years of experience do. The apprentices always have someone watching them (you hope) and their mistakes get corrected quickly (you hope).
> 
> ...


Had an electrician come in to find out why a baseboard heater wouldn't work in this house just after I moved in. 
"Here" a 220 circuit uses the "white" wire for the second 110 feed. :eek2: After two days, he said it would be easier to run a new circuit than fix this one. Four hours of "straightening out" his work, I found where the rough in wiring had the a hot lead grounded instead of going to the heater. Been that way for twenty years.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> If I've read everything correctly it is the fan. Shouldn't be a problem with the circuit.
> 
> Rich


"The problem" with troubleshooting through a forum/phone call. [lack of hands/eyes on]


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "defeative drill".


Oh, yeah. We threw that one away and checked all the portable electrical tools in the plant and then made the GFI adapters mandatory.



> "leakage" from hot to neutral, is a bit  to me, as there is "a load" connecting them.


You're gonna have to trust me on this one, Geoff. It happens. After awhile I just started to accept things like this.



> Not being "an expert" on GFIs, "I'd think", when the current differs [something like] 40 milliamps or more between the hot and neutral legs, it trips.


The GFIs trip so quickly, that amount of current never gets a chance to develop. 
Remember 40 milliamps is only a little less than the current needed to stop your heart.



> "Leakage" between the two, would not, but "leakage" to anything else would.


Leakage between hot and neutral wires will trip a GFI. I argued the point with an electrical engineer and he took a new GFI out of the box and showed me the paperwork that comes with each GFI and it detailed that leakage specifically. The name "Ground" Fault Interrupter (they were originally called "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters or GFCIs) should have never been used, but after they came into being, we learned so much more about them and by the time we could see that the name was incorrect and misleading the name was permanently affixed to the devices.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Had an electrician come in to find out why a baseboard heater wouldn't work in this house just after I moved in.
> "Here" a 220 circuit uses the "white" wire for the second 110 feed. :eek2: After two days, he said it would be easier to run a new circuit than fix this one. Four hours of "straightening out" his work, I found where the rough in wiring had the a hot lead grounded instead of going to the heater. Been that way for twenty years.


Scary, isn't it. I only trust one electrician and he is typing this post.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "The problem" with troubleshooting through a forum/phone call. [lack of hands/eyes on]


I know. This has been an interesting exercise tho. Whenever a neighbor calls me up with a problem, I never even listen to what he thinks the problem is, I just grab my Fluke and Wiggy and my tool bag and go the house the where the problem is.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> You're gonna have to trust me on this one, Geoff. It happens. After awhile I just started to accept things like this.
> 
> The GFIs trip so quickly, that amount of current never gets a chance to develop.
> Remember 40 milliamps is only a little less than the current needed to stop your heart.
> ...


Trusting you is/has never been an issue.
From here: http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_gfcis_work/
"kind of" looks like they work the way "I thought".


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I know. This has been an interesting exercise tho. Whenever a neighbor calls me up with a problem, I never even listen to what he thinks the problem is, I just grab my Fluke and Wiggy and my tool bag and go the house the where the problem is.
> 
> Rich


"Wiggy" is a florescent [for the lack of a better name] test light?


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I've been thinking about this for a while.
> I'm not sure if:
> 
> the Fan is miss wired, where it should trip a GFI, or
> ...


I'm pretty sure it is the fan because I plugged it into an outlet in the kitchen and it did the exact same thing. It's like magic. Turn the thermostat from "fan only" to anything else and the lines show up on the TV.

I don't have that tester with me (I'm at work), but I am pretty sure it is supposed to test if neutral and ground are reversed (not sure though).

John


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> By-passing Ohm's law [for now]: You can't have [develop] voltage across a short [zero ohms]. Some resistance is needed to have voltage.
> With "the fan", TV and DVR, it seems the 60 cycle [voltage]: came from the "fan", through the TV ground, "looping" through to the ground of the SAT feeds.
> Turning off the "fan" [unplugging], floating the TV ground [removing], or unplugging the SAT feeds, would "open" the circuit.
> The SAT ground has the lowest resistance.
> ...


The fan is definitely only a 2 prong plug.
John


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> I'm pretty sure it is the fan because I plugged it into an outlet in the kitchen and it did the exact same thing. It's like magic. Turn the thermostat from "fan only" to anything else and the lines show up on the TV.
> 
> I don't have that tester with me (I'm at work), but I am pretty sure it is supposed to test if neutral and ground are reversed (not sure though).
> 
> John


Sure sounds like the fan should go to the dumpster. 
Your other one doesn't when plugged in to the same outlet?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> The fan is definitely only a 2 prong plug.
> John


Which still has me a bit  as to "how".


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I would expect it to. But, you never know. Let us know if it does trip and then throw the damn thing out. If it does not trip the GFI, throw the damn thing out anyhow.
> 
> The GFIs are made to detect (I don't know how) any leakage between the "hot" and "neutral" wires. Sounds like you had just a little leakage but not enough to trip a regular breaker. If that GFI doesn't trip, take your multimeter into the bathroom and set it to AC voltage (I'm assuming your ohmmeter is a multimeter) and put one probe into the smaller of the two vertical slots and the other probe onto the screw of the cover of the GFI. The GFI should trip when you do this and all receptacles "downstream" of the GFI will trip also. As soon as it trips, you can hit the "reset" button and all the receptacles will be hot again.
> 
> ...


You know, I was thinking about all this last night. Why don't they build houses with ALL GFI outlets...or at least a GFI on the first receptacle of a circuit? I mean, it's only like 10 or 15 ciruits for an average house and they don't cost that much (relative to the cost of a house, or saving someone's life).

John


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Sure sounds like the fan should go to the dumpster.
> Your other one doesn't when plugged in to the same outlet?


Nope the other fan does not have this problem...whether plugged into the same (original) outlet, or another outlet (like the kitchen for testing).

Def. the fan. I will plug it into GFI tonight and report back for anyone who is curious.

Thanks again guys,
John


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dumpster time.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Trusting you is/has never been an issue.
> From here: http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_gfcis_work/
> "kind of" looks like they work the way "I thought".


From that link:

With the exception of small amounts of leak-age, the current returning to the power supply in a typical 2-wire circuit will be equal to the current leaving the power supply. If the difference between the current leaving and returning through the current transformer of the GFCI exceeds 5 mA (61 mA), the solid-state circuitry opens the switching contacts and de-energizes the circuit.

What we learned about the GFIs when they were introduced was that they would detect an "imbalance" between the neutral and hot wires.

Now, what the devil is the "5 milliamp (61 milliamp)" statement all about? That I don't understand. What does 5 milliamps have to do with 61 milliamps?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "Wiggy" is a florescent [for the lack of a better name] test light?


No. It is a voltage tester made by the Wiggington (spelling might be off) company. Here is a link with a picture. I don't know if the link will work. You might have to cut and paste.

http://www.squared.com/us/products/machine_safety.nsf/unid/58870E11543C976885256D500050927B/$file/wiggy.htm

While I was working as an active industrial electrician, this was the most valuable tool in my bag. Other companies, such as Ideal, now make Wiggy-like voltage testers.

One great feature of the Wiggy is the coil that vibrates on AC. And the higher the voltage the greater the vibration. So if you're in a tight place, you don't really have to look at the meter, you can feel the "juice". And after a while, you can feel the difference between 120, 240 and 480 volts.

I own several Wiggys and one Ideal and I feel much more comfy with the Wiggy. In all my years using them, I never had a Wiggy fail. I had leads break, but the Wiggys just keep on ticking.

The Wiggys are one of the truly great tools an electrician can use. My multi-meters stayed on my bench. When I went into the field I took the Wiggy. Some of my Wiggys date back to the early 70s. Still work fine.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> From that link:
> 
> With the exception of small amounts of leak-age, the current returning to the power supply in a typical 2-wire circuit will be equal to the current leaving the power supply. If the difference between the current leaving and returning through the current transformer of the GFCI exceeds 5 mA (61 mA), the solid-state circuitry opens the switching contacts and de-energizes the circuit.
> 
> ...


Correct.. All tho I prefer to say that the current flows in a loop.. If what goes out one lead doesn't come back on the other it assumes the "lost part" is going thru you and trips..

Also they don't actualy disconect the power.. They actualy short the output (this is faster responding) and let their own internal breaker pop..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> I don't have that tester with me (I'm at work), but I am pretty sure it is supposed to test if neutral and ground are reversed (not sure though).


That is one of the main reasons they were produced. That and checking for ground.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> You know, I was thinking about all this last night. Why don't they build houses with ALL GFI outlets...or at least a GFI on the first receptacle of a circuit? I mean, it's only like 10 or 15 ciruits for an average house and they don't cost that much (relative to the cost of a house, or saving someone's life).
> 
> John


Expense. You can ask for GFI outlets when you have a house built. I can't even begin to imagine how much a builder charges to do that. GFIs are mandatory in the kitchen and bathrooms and on hot tubs and swimming pools. Mandated by the NEC.

Your point is well taken tho. I have always wondered why new houses weren't loaded with GFI circuit breakers or at least GFI receptacles at the start of every circuit in the house. This reminds me of the middle 50s when Ford suddenly discovered seat belts. And they were optional. I don't remember when they became mandatory, but I had a 65 Cuda that didn't have seat belts. I had them installed at Sears right after I bought the car.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> I'm pretty sure it is the fan because I plugged it into an outlet in the kitchen and it did the exact same thing. It's like magic. Turn the thermostat from "fan only" to anything else and the lines show up on the TV.
> 
> I don't have that tester with me (I'm at work), but I am pretty sure it is supposed to test if neutral and ground are reversed (not sure though).
> 
> John


Expense. You can ask for GFI outlets when you have a house built. I can't even begin to imagine how much a builder charges to do that. GFIs are mandatory in the kitchen and bathrooms and on hot tubs and swimming pools. Mandated by the NEC.

Your point is well taken tho. I have always wondered why new houses weren't loaded with GFI circuit breakers or at least GFI receptacles at the start of every circuit in the house. This reminds me of the middle 50s when Ford suddenly discovered seat belts. And they were optional. I don't remember when they became mandatory, but I had a 65 Cuda that didn't have seat belts. I had them installed at Sears right after I bought the car.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Which still has me a bit  as to "how".


You have to believe that certain things happen. Electricity is like a religion. Ya gotta believe. Somehow or other, there was leakage between the hot and neutral wires. Which we found in several of those double insulated tools we checked by plugging them into a GFI.

I've lived for years with things that happened that I couldn't and still can't explain.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Now, what the devil is the "5 milliamp (61 milliamp)" statement all about? That I don't understand. What does 5 milliamps have to do with 61 milliamps?
> 
> Rich


"My take" was: between 5 & 6.1 milliamps, it trips. "I think" they missed the "."


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> Nope the other fan does not have this problem...whether plugged into the same (original) outlet, or another outlet (like the kitchen for testing).
> 
> Def. the fan. I will plug it into GFI tonight and report back for anyone who is curious.
> 
> ...


John, this is gonna drive VOS nutz. Why don't you send him the fan and give him a chance to find out exactly why this is happening? He's spent a lot of time helping you with this and I got a feeling he'd love to get his hands on that fan.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> You have to believe that certain things happen. Electricity is like a religion. Ya gotta believe. Somehow or other, there was leakage between the hot and neutral wires. Which we found in several of those double insulated tools we checked by plugging them into a GFI.
> 
> I've lived for years with things that happened that I couldn't and still can't explain.
> 
> Rich


Only an answer not found [yet]. 
I look at religion as well... [never discuss horse racing, politics or religion, as there are no "true answers"]
Hasn't it been the source of more wars than anything else?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> John, this is gonna drive VOS nutz. Why don't you send him the fan and give him a chance to find out exactly why this is happening? He's spent a lot of time helping you with this and I got a feeling he'd love to get his hands on that fan.
> 
> Rich


"I could" chalk it up to Chinese labor. :lol:

"Most likely" a capacitor miss wired across the hot to neutral at the thermostat.

Why it shows up on the house ground, is a completely other thing.

"John" can you send me your house wiring please? :lol:


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Electricity = Magic

'Nuff said.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Correct.. All tho I prefer to say that the current flows in a loop.. If what goes out one lead doesn't come back on the other it assumes the "lost part" is going thru you and trips..


I like the way you phrased your view. When you view electrical parts as sentient beings they become easier to understand.

When I was serving my apprenticeship, we had one of the originators of the first GFCIs come to the vocational school with a big copper tub. He stripped down to his tighty whiteys and plugged an extension cord into a primitive GFCI and wrapped the cord around his body and jumped into the water filled tub. Click. A twenty amp extension cord plugged into a 20 amp GFI. Clicked so fast I haven't the words to describe it. If he had done that with a plain old 20 amp breaker he would have died.



> Also they don't actualy disconect the power.. They actualy short the output (this is faster responding) and let their own internal breaker pop..


That tremendously brave man did that demonstration first and then spent the rest of the 3 hour class explaining how it worked. Lost me about twenty minutes into the explanation. And after that, all I cared about was the GFI's ability to trip so quickly. Using a silly scope hooked up to a GFI protected circuit you can't even begin to see the sine wave when you simulate a fault.

So they short out internally. Must beat hell out of them. I remember a lot of them wouldn't reset after a while if they tripped several times. We had a lot of trouble with fluorescent light fixtures and GFI breakers. Found a lot of those white pigtails disconnected when we inspected breaker boxes. And we had to replace the GFI breakers at a pretty good clip. In boxes that breakers would last for 20 years.

But they short out internally? Yeah, now that I think about it, they trip before the voltage can build up and the short wouldn't be all that much. Huh.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "My take" was: between 5 & 6.1 milliamps, it trips. "I think" they missed the "."


Oh. Well that's a pretty huge typo. I read that and felt really stupid.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Only an answer not found [yet].
> I look at religion as well... [never discuss horse racing, politics or religion, as there are no "true answers"]
> Hasn't it been the source of more wars than anything else?


If we start this discussion, not only will we be taking over a thread completely, but we will be severely chastised.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> If we start this discussion, not only will we be taking over a thread completely, but we will be severely chastised.
> 
> Rich


yeah I was skirting too close as it was with that post. [but you brought it up :lol: ].


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Wow this thread was busy today... 


veryoldschool said:


> Why it shows up on the house ground, is a completely other thing.


So what is the correct way of describing the fact that, inside my electrical panel, neutral and ground are essentially tied to each other?

I still find that interesting.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Electricity = Magic
> 
> 'Nuff said.


Yup, I always felt like the Sorcerer's Apprentice. And the really neat thing about being an industrial electrician is that most of the time nobody understands what you are doing.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> yeah I was skirting too close as it was with that post. [but you brought it up :lol: ].


All I did was use it as an analogy. Or is it an "analogue"? Remember that? I think he was wrong.

I wonder if there are forums where you can do that sort of thing?

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> Wow this thread was busy today...
> 
> So what is the correct way of describing the fact that, inside my electrical panel, neutral and ground are essentially tied to each other?
> 
> I still find that interesting.


Neutral is tied to ground, but "not ground". It is the return path for the 110 volt AC. You need to have "two legs" and the neutral is the "other".
If you were to look at them with a O=scope, you would see the 60 cycles on the neutral and not on the ground [if working correctly].


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> All I did was use it as an analogy. Or is it an "analogue"? Remember that? I think he was wrong.
> 
> I wonder if there are forums where you can do that sort of thing?
> 
> Rich


This is why I stick to electronics: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogue


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> So what is the correct way of describing the fact that, inside my electrical panel, neutral and ground are essentially tied to each other?
> I still find that interesting.


For several reasons. One is that it is mandated by the National Electrical Code. Another is that we know that configuration works well. Wasn't always as it is today. Evolved, it did. Another is that we believe in it. Good that you have an interest. Everyone should.

Rich


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## jangelj (Jun 10, 2006)

I plugged the fan into 2 separate GFIs in the house and tried every combination of thermostat and fan speed, heat on/off, etc. Nothing tripped either receptacle.

VOS if you really want that fan, I'll send it to you when I can.

John


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jangelj said:


> I plugged the fan into 2 separate GFIs in the house and tried every combination of thermostat and fan speed, heat on/off, etc. Nothing tripped either receptacle.
> 
> VOS if you really want that fan, I'll send it to you when I can.
> 
> John


nope, "I think" I know what is wrong with the fan. There is a cap across the thermostat's hot and neutral leads. This is "leaking" voltage, but not amperage.

If you were to open up both fans, I think you could find where the assembler miss mounted a cap [compared to the working one].


----------



## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> Neutral is tied to ground, but "not ground". It is the return path for the 110 volt AC. You need to have "two legs" and the neutral is the "other".
> If you were to look at them with a O=scope, you would see the 60 cycles on the neutral and not on the ground [if working correctly].


I must be horribly confused... I understand the the two legs concept, at least from the receptacle to the breaker panel (I've been calling it the electrical panel), but inside the panel, all the ground wires are tied to the same place as the neutrals and the neutral bus (see the area inside the yellow box), and the earth ground (on the water pipe) is tied to the same bus as the neutrals (purple box), as is the ground at the demarc (pink box) - used for satellite ground block and telco.

Based on John's experiments, and the fact that only when he removed ground, do the 60Hz waves on the TV go way, this seem to say that the 60Hz is on the ground...

Or do you mean the 60 cycles current the device is using? In this case it seems it is the path of least resistance, as the path the electric company's neutral is less resistance than the path to earth (ground).

Thanks for your patience, I'm still waiting for the bulb over my head to turn on. :bang


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> I must be horribly confused... I understand the the two legs concept, at least from the receptacle to the breaker panel (I've been calling it the electrical panel), but inside the panel, all the ground wires are tied to the same place as the neutrals and the neutral bus (see the area inside the yellow box), and the earth ground (on the water pipe) is tied to the same bus as the neutrals (purple box), as is the ground at the demarc (pink box) - used for satellite ground block and telco.
> 
> Based on John's experiments, and the fact that only when he removed ground, do the 60Hz waves on the TV go way, this seem to say that the 60Hz is on the ground...
> 
> ...


"John's experiment" has a flaw, which is why I jokingly asked for him to send me his house wiring.
You understand that your "yellow box" has two types of wires. The copper is ground and shouldn't have any voltage. If you were to disconnect the "other" [neutral] you would measure 110 volts to ground.
Your "pink & purple" boxes are larger ground wires that "should have" less resistance to ground than what's coming in, in the yellow box.
In John's case, what comes in on the neutral is going out on the copper [yellow box], instead of going out through the "purple or pink" box in your picture.
What could also be happening is: the neutral is coupling to the ground before it ever gets to "the box", and just the wire resistance is enough to "steer" the 60 cycles to the lower resistance of the SAT feeds.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> I must be horribly confused... I understand the the two legs concept, at least from the receptacle to the breaker panel (I've been calling it the electrical panel), but inside the panel, all the ground wires are tied to the same place as the neutrals and the neutral bus (see the area inside the yellow box), and the earth ground (on the water pipe) is tied to the same bus as the neutrals (purple box), as is the ground at the demarc (pink box) - used for satellite ground block and telco.
> 
> Based on John's experiments, and the fact that only when he removed ground, do the 60Hz waves on the TV go way, this seem to say that the 60Hz is on the ground...
> 
> ...


I've been waiting for that bulb to turn on for many, many years. I wasn't kidding when I said that electricity was like a religion and you just gotta believe and not question everything. You'll drive yourself nutz.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jangelj said:


> I plugged the fan into 2 separate GFIs in the house and tried every combination of thermostat and fan speed, heat on/off, etc. Nothing tripped either receptacle.
> 
> VOS if you really want that fan, I'll send it to you when I can.
> 
> John


Well, that figures. Yet another unexplained electrical puzzle. I think I'll go with VOS's cap explanation, altho why that would not trip the GFIs is beyond me. As usual.

At least take the cover off the fan and check what VOS is talking about. And if it is not that...

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "John's experiment" has a flaw, which is why I jokingly asked for him to send me his house wiring.
> You understand that your "yellow box" has two types of wires. The copper is ground and shouldn't have any voltage. If you were to disconnect the "other" [neutral] you would measure 110 volts to ground.
> Your "pink & purple" boxes are larger ground wires that "should have" less resistance to ground than what's coming in, in the yellow box.
> In John's case, what comes in on the neutral is going out on the copper [yellow box], instead of going out through the "purple or pink" box in your picture.
> What could also be happening is: the neutral is coupling to the ground before it ever gets to "the box", and just the wire resistance is enough to "steer" the 60 cycles to the lower resistance of the SAT feeds.


Oh, that should clear up Eric's confusion.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Only way you will get a "leak" from a two prong plug device is if you have something touching it to "leak" thru.. be that you or something it's setting on..
You can have a ton of RFI noise coming out tho..both thru the air and feeding back thru the plug..


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I think I'll go with VOS's cap explanation, altho why that would not trip the GFIs is beyond me. As usual.
> Rich


It "comes in the hot leg" and "goes out the neutral leg", therefore both legs are "in balance" and the GFI doesn't trip. Should either leg be out of balance, it would.
Fundamentally, a GFI will trip if there is current going anywhere else.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Only way you will get a "leak" from a two prong plug device is if you have something touching it to "leak" thru.. be that you or something it's setting on..
> You can have a ton of RFI noise coming out tho..both thru the air and feeding back thru the plug..


I think I have to disagree. Not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but think back to my post about the "double insulated" tools we tested and found several that did, somehow, have slight leakage between the hot and neutral. Perhaps my terminology is incorrect. But I watched a couple of electricians take those tools apart and there was nothing obvious that would have caused an imbalance between the two conductors. Couldn't measure anything wrong with a Simpson analog multi-meter or a Fluke. But when you put a megger on them a slight reading occurred. We never found where it was coming from, cheaper to throw them out and buy new ones rather than tie up a couple of electricians for hours.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> I must be horribly confused...


Here's a question for you that should confuse you even more: Why are you safer in a car during a thunderstorm than out of the car?

Another one? Are you safer on a golf course with a metal club in your hand or just standing there empty handed during a thunderstorm?

Both of these questions have to do with ground.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> It "comes in the hot leg" and "goes out the neutral leg", therefore both legs are "in balance" and the GFI doesn't trip. Should either leg be out of balance, it would.
> Fundamentally, a GFI will trip if there is current going anywhere else.


Such as leakage between the hot wire and the neutral. Took me a while to accept this concept too, but you can't ignore it or explain it any other way. Please don't answer the two questions I asked of Eric, let's torture him a little more.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

ANY leakage has to go somewhere..
if you took one of those tools and set it on an isulated surface and turned it on without touching it you WILL read a voltage on the tool with a high impedeance digital voltmeter..
electricity ALWAYS flows in a circle..


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Here's a question for you that should confuse you even more: Why are you safer in a car during a thunderstorm than out of the car?
> 
> Another one? Are you safer on a golf course with a metal club in your hand or just standing there empty handed during a thunderstorm?
> 
> ...


1st one is because the power will flow around you thru the body of the car.. just don't touch any metal inside


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Such as leakage between the hot wire and the neutral. Took me a while to accept this concept too, but you can't ignore it or explain it any other way.
> Rich


"leakage" between the two, is what the load is [normally]. If it becomes too much, the breaker will trip. I can't agree with the "mystery" of a GFI circuit. It has a fast acting "breaker" that senses a "loss" of 5 milliamps on either leg [relative to the other] and trips.
Why the drill had a problem, could have been many things, some that might have been "disturbed" just by opening it up for inspection. [thinking something like worn brushes and their "dust"].

[again] My background never allowed for "mysteries". Pilots never seemed to "go for that", for some odd reason [oh, that's right: it was their butts flying my repairs].


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

houskamp said:


> 1st one is because the power will flow around you thru the body of the car.. just don't touch any metal inside


Why can birds perch on power lines?


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "leakage" between the two, is what the load is [normally]. If it becomes too much, the breaker will trip. I can't agree with the "mystery" of a GFI circuit. It has a fast acting "breaker" that senses a "loss" of 5 milliamps on either leg [relative to the other] and trips.
> Why the drill had a problem, could have been many things, some that might have been "disturbed" just by opening it up for inspection. [thinking something like worn brushes and their "dust"].
> 
> [again] My background never allowed for "mysteries". Pilots never seemed to "go for that", for some odd reason [*oh, that's right: it was their butts flying my repairs*].


:lol: :lol: :lol: 
Wusses


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

houskamp said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> Wusses


Now they're the ones that had to have "faith & believe" in the unknown. :lol:


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Now they're the ones that had to have "faith & believe" in the unknown. :lol:


At least my coustomers are still on the ground


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

houskamp said:


> At least my coustomers are still on the ground


Yeah, and can call for a tow truck too...


----------



## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

houskamp said:


> Only way you will get a "leak" from a two prong plug device is if you have something touching it to "leak" thru.. be that you or something it's setting on..
> You can have a ton of RFI noise coming out tho..both thru the air and feeding back thru the plug..


I guess the point I was trying to make is that the leak is 60Hz noise... Low power RF noise, not current moving from hot to neutral, or even hot to ground... If that fan is "transmitting" a 60Hz signal (that's what I'm calling the distorted picture that started this thread), on the AC circuit, then it is seems reasonable that the ground wire will also act as an antenna, since neutral and ground are tied together in the panel.

Now I'm just thinking that the TV and HR don't care about the noise on the neutral, but for some reason when the noise is on the ground (coax shield for the HR, ground pin on the TV), the picture on the TV is distorted... Yeah, that part is magic, and I'm not even going to guess what's going on inside those boxes...

But I really thought I be able to grasp the whole neutral and ground are tied together in the panel concept... I think it's sinking in... But the bulb is only just starting to flicker.



rich584 said:


> Oh, that should clear up Eric's confusion.


Getting closer.


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> I guess the point I was trying to make is that the leak is 60Hz noise... Low power RF noise, not current moving from hot to neutral, or even hot to ground... If that fan is "transmitting" a 60Hz signal (that's what I'm calling the distorted picture that started this thread), on the AC circuit, then it is seems reasonable that the ground wire will also act as an antenna, since neutral and ground are tied together on the panel.
> 
> Now I'm just thinking that the TV and HR don't care about the noise on the neutral, but for some reason when the noise is on the ground (coax shield for the HR, ground pin on the TV), the picture on the TV is distorted... Yeah, that part is magic, and I'm not even going to guess what's going on inside those boxes...
> 
> ...


actualy not the 60 cycle noise but harmonics of 60 cycle.. that is 120, 180, 240... they can even get up to the mz ranges..


----------



## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

I figured I was oversimplifying, due to my own limited grasp of the principles in play, but that is the concept I was trying to present... It seems feasible to me, but only as I try to get my brain wrapped around this.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> ANY leakage has to go somewhere..
> if you took one of those tools and set it on an isulated surface and turned it on without touching it you WILL read a voltage on the tool with a high impedeance digital voltmeter..
> electricity ALWAYS flows in a circle..


All voltmeters have a high resistance, all ammeters have a low resistance. Just the nature of the beast. One of the highlights of my classes at the college was when I hooked up an ammeter in parallel in a circuit and threw the "juice" to it. Till the college asked me to stop destroying ammeters.

You're not thinking as an electrician. We don't even refer to "electricity" as an entity as much as we think of it as "juice". And, yes, it always flows in a "circuit". What you have to remember is that electricity is made up of voltage, resistance and current. Neither voltage or resistance "flow". Only current. Easier to think of it as "juice". And to paraphrase the great Frank Herbert, "The juice must flow" in our society. Know what book that paraphrase is from? Anyone?

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> 1st one is because the power will flow around you thru the body of the car.. just don't touch any metal inside


Wrong. And we are supposed to be torturing Eric.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "leakage" between the two, is what the load is [normally]. If it becomes too much, the breaker will trip. I can't agree with the "mystery" of a GFI circuit. It has a fast acting "breaker" that senses a "loss" of 5 milliamps on either leg [relative to the other] and trips.


Not according to the Puddy Tat's post. The things short out first, then trip.



> Why the drill had a problem, could have been many things, some that might have been "disturbed" just by opening it up for inspection. [thinking something like worn brushes and their "dust"].


Nope, new drill. And we never found anything irregular about the other ones.



> [again] My background never allowed for "mysteries". Pilots never seemed to "go for that", for some odd reason [oh, that's right: it was their butts flying my repairs].


Good thing you were in the Air Force and not an Airdale. Ever see the Northern Lights or "St. Elmo's Fire"? How about the "imps"? Some of your pilots must have seen "imps".

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Why can birds perch on power lines?


I know, but does Eric?

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Now they're the ones that had to have "faith & believe" in the unknown. :lol:


At least your pilots had good old Mother Earth to land on. We always operated with a carrier as ASW screen, and stood a lot of recovery duty. Every once in a while, plop. Then it gets really scary for the pilot.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> At least my coustomers are still on the ground


Gotta ask: Your customers are...?

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> I figured I was oversimplifying, due to my own limited grasp of the principles in play, but that is the concept I was trying to present... It seems feasible to me, but only as I try to get my brain wrapped around this.


Aren't you even going to try to answer those questions, two of mine and one of VOS,s?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> I figured I was oversimplifying, due to my own limited grasp of the principles in play, but that is the concept I was trying to present... It seems feasible to me, but only as I try to get my brain wrapped around this.


The best way to learn is to simplify. Once you grasp the simple concept, you can begin to understand the more complicated concepts. And remember, only current flows, strictly speaking.

Rich


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Electricity is magic. Respect it, don't try and figure it out. Just respect it, because if you don't, you won't like the results.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> I guess the point I was trying to make is that the leak is 60Hz noise... Low power RF noise, not current moving from hot to neutral, or even hot to ground... If that fan is "transmitting" a 60Hz signal (that's what I'm calling the distorted picture that started this thread), on the AC circuit, then it is seems reasonable that the ground wire will also act as an antenna, since neutral and ground are tied together on the panel.


Your mind works amazingly well. But, consider this: in order for "power" to exist, current must flow. The formulas for "power" P=VxI or W=VxI in a resistive load or W=I squared x R in an inductive load mandate current flow. Got that?



> Now I'm just thinking that the TV and HR don't care about the noise on the neutral, but for some reason when the noise is on the ground (coax shield for the HR, ground pin on the TV), the picture on the TV is distorted... Yeah, that part is magic, and I'm not even going to guess what's going on inside those boxes...


Now, that is the approach to take. Look at the end result and accept something went on to produce that result. I think our brains are like pails and there is only so much they will hold. We don't have to understand how a Prius works to drive one.

And what happens when the pail is full? Leakage...



> But I really thought I be able to grasp the whole neutral and ground are tied together in the panel concept... I think it's sinking in... But the bulb is only just starting to flicker.Getting closer.


Not to add to your confusion, Eric, but do you realize you don't really need the ground for your house circuitry for that circuitry to function properly (in ideal situations, don't pounce on me). We are forced to ground the circuitry by the National Electric Code (and common sense learned the hard way).

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Gotta ask: Your customers are...?
> 
> Rich


Auto tech actualy.. But father is a EE.. grew up with electricity  I can still design simple circuits (dad still helps on the more compicated stuff)


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> All voltmeters have a high resistance, all ammeters have a low resistance. Just the nature of the beast. One of the highlights of my classes at the college was when I hooked up an ammeter in parallel in a circuit and threw the "juice" to it. Till the college asked me to stop destroying ammeters.
> 
> You're not thinking as an electrician. We don't even refer to "electricity" as an entity as much as we think of it as "juice". And, yes, it always flows in a "circuit". What you have to remember is that electricity is made up of voltage, resistance and current. Neither voltage or resistance "flow". Only current. Easier to think of it as "juice". And to paraphrase the great Frank Herbert, "The juice must flow" in our society. Know what book that paraphrase is from? Anyone?
> 
> Rich


Still will stay with the "it always flows in a circle" thats a law of elect..
maybe I should have put it this way: If you put said drill on a insulated table locked the trigger, plugged it in to GFI the GFI will not trip (unless you have a faulty GFI).. It has to see a second power path (outside of the black to white leads) to trip.. 
wether or not you can find the fault visualy is a separate matter, there had to be a problem somewhere.. doesn't take much to transfer 5ma to your hand.. sweating can even do it..


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

oh, side note:
take apart a GFI plug sometime.. you'll see just how it works.. both the black/white (hot/neutral) leads go thru the same coil..that's how it "sees" the load.. as long as the 2 leads are balanced (what goes out one comes in the other) the output of the coil is 0.. any other path (like thru you) causes a current to build in the coil.. when it exceeds a set limit the unit trips..
this is the same reaction you get if you clip your amp meter around a regular extention cord.. it won't show any load at all (both leads cancel out each other).. but if you split the cord and clamp your meter around 1 lead you will see the draw..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Electricity is magic. Respect it, don't try and figure it out. Just respect it, because if you don't, you won't like the results.


Hey, how you doin?

It is kinda magical, isn't it? Till it bites you. Worst hit I ever took was 350VDC. Always a downside to things. But I had a lot of good times with it. I got to play with some really interesting equipment.

The kind of voltages electronic techs work with must be more fun. But, I've had a hard enough time wrapping my mind around electricity. Waveguides. My God.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Hey, how you doin?
> 
> It is kinda magical, isn't it? Till it bites you. Worst hit I ever took was 350VDC. Always a downside to things. But I had a lot of good times with it. I got to play with some really interesting equipment.
> 
> ...


DC is the worst.. you get "stuck".. as the frequency goes up its not near as leathal..
I had an uncle killed by a 400vdc line.. (worked in subway out east) it somehow got against the ladder out of where he was working.. he grabbed the ladder and that was it..


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Hasn't this subject been beaten into the _ground_ enough already...

bada-bing...thank you, thank you very much, I'll be here all week and be sure to tip your waitress. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Auto tech actualy.. But father is a EE.. grew up with electricity  I can still design simple circuits (dad still helps on the more compicated stuff)


Thinking about electrical engineers. Don't think I ever met a bad one. That is one engineering discipline that demands competency. You're lucky to have a resource like that. Have you ever asked him if he can "see" circuitry "move" in his mind? He will know what you mean.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Thinking about electrical engineers. Don't think I ever met a bad one. That is one engineering discipline that demands competency. You're lucky to have a resource like that. Have you ever asked him if he can "see" circuitry "move" in his mind? He will know what you mean.
> 
> Rich


definately.. it's like a second language.. when you get good enough you think in in instead of thinking in english and translating.. 
I do it some too.. If I didn't hate school so much I would problably be one too..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Hasn't this subject been beaten into the _ground_ enough already...
> 
> bada-bing...thank you, thank you very much, I'll be here all week and be sure to tip your waitress. :lol:


VOS and I almost got into a discussion about religion on this thread. That would have perked up the thread for a while. Gotta agree with you. We have beaten it into the ground and I think the problem was solved, so perhaps we should...

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> definately.. it's like a second language.. when you get good enough you think in in instead of thinking in english and translating..
> I do it some too.. If I didn't hate school so much I would problably be one too..


That has to be a nasty degree to get. I was asked to get that degree a couple times. The company would have paid for it, but I just couldn't imagine going thru all that. I'm lazy. And that's way too much responsibility. Better to be an electrician, altho that got boring after a while. Really boring.

Rich


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

[edit] Wow, I missed a lot... Been busy at work (see below), and when I get home I'm trying to catch up on my Tour de France watching... So I have not been to the forums as much (on a daily basis).



veryoldschool said:


> Why can birds perch on power lines?





rich584 said:


> Wrong. And we are supposed to be torturing Eric.
> 
> Rich


These principles I get... On my way to my degree in computer science I had to take a few EE courses... In fact, when I started college (back in the late 70s), if you were interested in computers, you had to be in the EE college. My first attempt at college did not go well (I was in Boise, from Chicago, and did way more skiing than schooling). Ten years later, when I finally did graduate (From USF in Tampa - No snow there), computer science (and engineering) was a bona fide college unto itself... But I digress.

Yeah, I think I have a decent grasp of the mechanics of electricty... Even to the point that flow is not really flow, but more like the bumping of electrons from one orbit to the next, and that it's not the same electrons that move from one end of that wire to the other... Kinda like the waves in an ocean - It's not the water that is moving, rather it is the energy.

I guess that's my problem... With some understanding it opens the door for me to want to grasp the whole situation... As I mentioned in my IG thread (which only 2dogz has visited), I do IT (prior to this job I worked for a large telecomm for 16 years, doing everything from software design, international customer support, to system integration and test) for a small chain of supermarkets... As such, I do a lot of other things that don't deal with small wires and low voltages (I tried to say I won't work with any wire larger than 18AWG, or any voltages higher than 70, but that does not always work). So I get my hands into all sorts of things, from how store refrigeration works, to the complexity of how a store that large is wired (I'll post some pictures of our new store, an old Tom Thumb, it's around 55,000 square feet and has a seriously impressive electrical room).

So the explanation of how a signal can get to, and travel on, the ground piques my curiosity, as it is something that will most likely be of help to me in the future...

I appreciate all the information in this thread, even the stuff that's a tad OT...

Thanks guys!

Eric


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> So the explanation of how a signal can get to, and travel on, the ground piques my curiosity, as it is something that will most likely be of help to me in the future...
> 
> I appreciate all the information in this thread, even the stuff that's a tad OT...
> 
> ...


Discounting "magic", since I can't turn lead into gold [but I do seem to be able to turn gold into lead way too easy].
What "we" had was a fan with a small cap across the hot & neutral leads. This would pass voltage, but not current [to any significant degree]. Since this didn't do any "work", the voltage on the neutral could be higher. This voltage should go toward the lowest resistance to ground, which "should be" in the power panel. Since it was using the SAT feed ground, this was a shorter/lower resistance path. This makes me think there is a miss wiring closer to the TV than the power panel, where ground and neutral are connected.
If an audio amp had been connected in this "loop", 60 cycles would be heard.
With the TV: the 60 cycles came out the ground plug, tied to the chassis ground, where the video amps were grounded. 60 cycles become 120 "bumps" on the ground side of the video amps, as it passes through the analog cables over to the DVR, and on to the SAT feed and ground.

"The fan" might be a tool to use by plugging into various plugs to get an idea of where the neutral and ground are connected, since if it was plugged in closer to the power panel than where the neutral and ground could be connected, the SAT feed ground "should" drop out of "the loop".


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I personaly think it's more along the lines of your fan thinking it's a radio transmitter..
Anyone remember having channel 3 get lines when someone turned on a hairdryer?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

houskamp said:


> I personaly think it's more along the lines of your fan thinking it's a radio transmitter..
> Anyone remember having channel 3 get lines when someone turned on a hairdryer?


Yes, or a car driving by [in the old days], but this is too low in frequency and if it was RFI, it wouldn't change with a non grounded TV/SAT feed.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Why can birds perch on power lines?


You do realize that you could perch on a power line too?

I guess Eric isn't going to be lured into one of our torture sessions. So let me answer your question and mine.

The reason a bird (or you) can perch on a power line is that there is no difference in potential. Now if you were perched on that power line (most aren't insulated) and reached out and touched a nearby power line, you would be vaporized.

The question about the car and lightning is answered by new studies that show that the path of least resistance to ground is thru the water coating the car in the storm. I always thought the bit about the tires being the insulators was a bit off and couldn't understand how hundreds of thousands of volts carrying so very much amperage couldn't blow right thru tires.

Another study has shown that a person on a golf course holding a golf club (metal, of course) is safer because the golf club will channel the lightning to ground. Path of least resistance again.

Rich


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

I guess I should have pointed out, as a kid growing up in Chicago, I was very familiar with the third-rail of the L... Now I've heard many a story where foolish kids would walk on that third rail (as I recall 660 volts and a boatload of available amps, except during peak were it was increased a couple a hundred volts), and the stories of careless men (never woman) that relieved themselves, and either due to bad aim or on purpose, hit the third rail with shocking, and as I recall deadly, results... And of course the story of houskamp's uncle comes to mind too... So I understand the reason one may perch on a high voltage line... It's just I've never been tempted too, for all the obvious reason, but especially of having my air gap become just a tad too small, because I came too close, to something that will provide the path for all those tiny little electrons to bounce their way through my mostly saline (with all those extra electrons) body!


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

Boy, just got caught up on this thread from a couple of days ago. Thought it was done when OP found source of TV problem. But you guys have been all over the place. Especially liked magic, mystery, and miracle stuff.

Nobody answered Eric's puzzlement at the neutral and ground bus bars that are tied together at the main electrical panel. You missed setting your sights on a very important part of your home's electrical system, namely, the step down transformer up on the utility pole out on the street (or in a vault under the sidewalk if you don't have poles). It is alternately pushing and pulling the electrical energy (juice) between the hots and neutrals at 60 times a second.

Why doesn't the juice flow to ground at the service panel? The transformer is pulling on the neutral with the same force as pushing on the hots. Electricity takes least resistant path to ground, and it this case, the transformer is a whole lot more attractive than earth ground (up to the point where hot/neutral are equal). The neutral is grounded but the return juice is flowing on it back to the transformer. Ergo, the rule: *Always treat a neutral as a hot*.

Why are the neutral and ground tied together? Think tree limb in a storm, or a cable company trenching tool burying cable. If the neutral wire gets cut, where does the energy go? Yep, to earth ground via the main service panel. Same is true of the transformer. Look at a wooden pole with a transformer and you'll find a ground cable running down the pole.

About that fan/heater appliance that caused the problem, it may have a cap in the fan motor to assist startup, but the fan wasn't the problem. Problem appears to be varible resistor switch (rheostat) that controls the heating element. These things are known to cause problems with telephone lines and modems especially when high speed (19.2, 24, 56 bps) modems came into use in late 80's and 90's. Distortion would cause it to fail to reach advertised speed. Light dimmers, or rheostats, were often found to be distorting the AC power. In OP's case, it probably the design and quality of the TV's power supply, its failure to filter the line distortion from the electronics that is the real source of the problem. (Remember, one TV worked, but another didn't.)

Since VOS brought up caps, they are often used with electric motors. As it relates to discussion of GFCIs, motors often have the problem of tripping the GFCI breaker and, hence, one reason why they are not used throughtout the house. If your fridge keep tripping the thing and melting your ice cream, you'ld be pissed. Likewise, if your AC unit tripped in the middle of a hot July night, you're probably more than pissed.

Geez, probably longest post I've ever written. Time for a cold one and turn on the TV.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

2dogz said:


> Time for a cold one and turn on the TV.


I'll drink to that!
:goodjob: 
Got to say your post helped... What really did it was the reinforcement of the alternating current at work... The pushing and pulling... I get the "path of least resistance" idea, but I think it the pushing an pulling that reinforced the idea of why the ground is not a sink (under normal conditions)... The pushing an pulling helps keep the potential to ground higher, and thus those electrons flow where they are supposed too. I hope I got the gist of that.

I guess old Tomas Edison was kinda bummed that DC did not become the standard, but I suspect our gene pool a little deeper thanks to George (Westinghouse). I thought safety was one reason, or was that hype? AC is certainly more efficient if I recall.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

*2dogz*:
You seem to have a slightly different "color" to the picture.
I will "pick on" only one: 
The "fan" had a thermostat not a rheostat on the heater circuit and any "caps" on motors are for starting up the motor or to make them more efficient by changing the armature/field winding phasing.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> I'll drink to that!
> :goodjob:
> Got to say your post helped... What really did it was the reinforcement of the alternating current at work... The pushing and pulling... I get the "path of least resistance" idea, but I think it the pushing an pulling that reinforced the idea of why the ground is not a sink (under normal conditions)... The pushing an pulling helps keep the potential to ground higher, and thus those electrons flow where they are supposed too. I hope I got the gist of that.
> 
> I guess old Tomas Edison was kinda bummed that DC did not become the standard, but I suspect our gene pool a little deeper thanks to George (Westinghouse). I thought safety was one reason, or was that hype? AC is certainly more efficient if I recall.


"I R Loss" is why AC works over distance and DC doesn't. 
Edison didn't understand what Tesla did.


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> "I R Loss" is why AC works over distance and DC doesn't.
> Edison didn't understand what Tesla did.


Magic? Naw, physics! Saw it on the History Channel. 

Thermostat, rheostat, or combination of both? Low, medium, or high swich? Really can't say for sure without looking at the thing. But the resistive heating element, maybe damaged over time, could also be a factor. Basically, anything that power is flowing through that could be distorting the sine wave of the AC current might be the culprit.

Time for a second beer.


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

EricJRW said:


> but I think it the pushing an pulling that reinforced the idea


Started to write "sucking" and its opposite would be ... blowing? Hmmm. Sucking and blowing. Nope. Might get me an "R" rating. Pushing and pulling it is.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

2dogz said:


> Magic? Naw, physics! Saw it on the History Channel.
> 
> Thermostat, rheostat, or combination of both? Low, medium, or high swich? Really can't say for sure without looking at the thing. But the resistive heating element, maybe damaged over time, could also be a factor. Basically, anything that power is flowing through that could be distorting the sine wave of the AC current might be the culprit.
> 
> Time for a second beer.


I'm not going to go back through this thread to find the post but: it was the thermostat on the heater and it was set so it wasn't turning on the heater, thus was in the "open state".

I'm not quite sure of this: 
"Why are the neutral and ground tied together? Think tree limb in a storm, or a cable company trenching tool burying cable. If the neutral wire gets cut, where does the energy go? Yep, to earth ground via the main service panel. Same is true of the transformer. Look at a wooden pole with a transformer and you'll find a ground cable running down the pole."
If the neutral is cut/broken, doesn't this simply "open" the circuit? I don't think the grounds you're referring to are there to complete the circuit.

Tesla once tried to send power through the air and use the "earth" as a returned path. It wasn't practical and never got very far.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Ah Tesla*... Actually Westinghouse get the AC idea from Tesla as I recall... Basic thought behind AC and DC is that AC took math skill, whereas anyone could brute-force DC concepts (apparently Edison was not very mathematical, but was very determined). . 

*A while back I read the book "Master of Lightning", his "wireless transmission of energy" idea was brilliant, and seems to pop up every now and again. In fact I saw some gadget to charge batteries without wires... Yeah, I'm sure it's different technology, but dang Tesla had brilliant ideas, and some amazing predictions too (world system of music distribution, clocks you don't have to set, the fax, all the telephones in the world interconnected, universal distribution of general news, etc.).


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

dc doesn't go thru transformers either.. kinda limits transmission distance...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

EricJRW said:


> Ah Tesla*... Actually Westinghouse get the AC idea from Tesla as I recall... Basic thought behind AC and DC is that AC took math skill, whereas anyone could brute-force DC concepts (apparently Edison was not very mathematical, but was very determined). .
> 
> *A while back I read the book "Master of Lightning", his "wireless transmission of energy" idea was brilliant, and seems to pop up every now and again. In fact I saw some gadget to charge batteries without wires... Yeah, I'm sure it's different technology, but dang Tesla had brilliant ideas, and some amazing predictions too (world system of music distribution, clocks you don't have to set, the fax, all the telephones in the world interconnected, universal distribution of general news, etc.).


Actually Westinghouse hired Tesla [the brains verses the money] and Tesla was to make a percentage off everything that was made/sold, but later Westinghouse had to break the agreement as he couldn't pay Tesla all of the royalties he was due.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> I guess I should have pointed out, as a kid growing up in Chicago, I was very familiar with the third-rail of the L... Now I've heard many a story where foolish kids would walk on that third rail (as I recall 660 volts and a boatload of available amps, except during peak were it was increased a couple a hundred volts), and the stories of careless men (never woman) that relieved themselves, and either due to bad aim or on purpose, hit the third rail with shocking, and as I recall deadly, results... And of course the story of houskamp's uncle comes to mind too... So I understand the reason one may perch on a high voltage line... It's just I've never been tempted too, for all the obvious reason, but especially of having my air gap become just a tad too small, because I came too close, to something that will provide the path for all those tiny little electrons to bounce their way through my mostly saline (with all those extra electrons) body!


I'd pay $50 for a real picture of VOS perching on a power line.

I began life in Newark and was very familiar with third rails. Of course you could jump on one and nothing would happen (you hope, we are dealing with a theory here). I've seen the damage that 600 or so volts of DC can do to the human body and it is not pretty.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> dc doesn't go thru transformers either.. kinda limits transmission distance...


And that, in a nutshell, is the reason we use AC instead of DC. There is no way to "step up and down" DC except using resistors and that would be using juice without getting any return for it. Give the Puddy Tat some catnip!

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> Ah Tesla*... Actually Westinghouse get the AC idea from Tesla as I recall... Basic thought behind AC and DC is that AC took math skill, whereas anyone could brute-force DC concepts (apparently Edison was not very mathematical, but was very determined). .
> 
> *A while back I read the book "Master of Lightning", his "wireless transmission of energy" idea was brilliant, and seems to pop up every now and again. In fact I saw some gadget to charge batteries without wires... Yeah, I'm sure it's different technology, but dang Tesla had brilliant ideas, and some amazing predictions too (world system of music distribution, clocks you don't have to set, the fax, all the telephones in the world interconnected, universal distribution of general news, etc.).


I've tried to read Tesla's works and it is like trying to read Hawking. Damn near impossible. Tesla was a true genius as opposed to Edison, who took other people's ideas and turned them into money makers. Edison was more of an entrepreneur than an electrical genius. But, he was a great entrepreneur.

I've always thought Tesla's idea of transmitting juice through the air, as radio waves are, was a good one and I think it would have been really interesting. As I understand it, he would broadcast to a receiver that would run a generator or turbine. I've alway wondered what the side effects would have been. Tesla was convinced he could do it tho and who are we to disagree?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> Got to say your post helped... What really did it was the reinforcement of the alternating current at work... The pushing and pulling... I get the "path of least resistance" idea, but I think it the pushing an pulling that reinforced the idea of why the ground is not a sink (under normal conditions)... The pushing an pulling helps keep the potential to ground higher, and thus those electrons flow where they are supposed too. I hope I got the gist of that.


It's not really "pushing and pulling". What's happening is the polarity is reversed in a 60 cycle circuit 60 times a second.



> I guess old Tomas Edison was kinda bummed that DC did not become the standard, but I suspect our gene pool a little deeper thanks to George (Westinghouse). I thought safety was one reason, or was that hype? AC is certainly more efficient if I recall.


The problem Edison couldn't get around was that it would be prohibitively expensive to use DC. The size of the cables would have been immense. Substations would have been all over the place. And you'd have to use massive resistors to get the voltage down to something useful. And you would need more generators. Expensive and complicated. Take a look at a diagram of the national grid sometime. It's not that hard to understand. Could have never done that with DC, I don't think, I don't.

Rich


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

rich584 said:


> It's not really "pushing and pulling". What's happening is the polarity is reversed in a 60 cycle circuit 60 times a second.


Yeah, I get that... To me the "_pushing and pulling_" just reminded me that, for lack a better description, the flow of the electrons was changing directions... I was thinking about the "*A*" in AC as much as I should have been. With that change in direction (in my mind), earth ground does not like such a good place for electrons to go.

Did you see the movie "_The Prestige_"? In it, David Bowie played Nikola Tesla. Yeah, I don't think Tesla was a theme so much as a sub-plot, but it was interesting.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricJRW said:


> Yeah, I get that... To me the "_pushing and pulling_" just reminded me that, for lack a better description, the flow of the electrons was changing directions... I was thinking about the "*A*" in AC as much as I should have been. With that change in direction (in my mind), earth ground does not like such a good place for electrons to go.


When I teach a class on understanding electricity, I use this as an example: Picture a cardboard tube with a diameter just large enough to put tennis balls in it until the tube is full. Now put another tennis ball in place and give it a push. The "push" is the voltage and the tennis ball that falls out the other end is the current. Keep adding balls and you can see that current flows, but the voltage or "push" remains in place. Voltage and resistance do not move, only current.

Now look at the example. Where is the ground? My point is that you really don't need a ground reference for AC current to flow. It is much safer and much more stable if grounded properly, but not an absolute necessity.

In the example that was proffered by another poster, what WOULD happen if the neutral wire coming off the transformer were broken? The main reason for that neutral is so that the home's service may use it to produce 120 volts. So would it go straight to ground if the neutral were broken? You still have 220 volts induced whether you have a neutral or not. No reason to think it would go to ground, which would blow the transformer up. What you would end up with is no 120, just 220. I think.



> Did you see the movie "_The Prestige_"? In it, David Bowie played Nikola Tesla. Yeah, I don't think Tesla was a theme so much as a sub-plot, but it was interesting.


Missed that movie. Have to look for it. Try reading one of Tesla's papers. That man was born ahead of his time.

Rich


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