# Some good news I hope for all the OTA fans from DirecTV



## pjs344 (May 21, 2014)

On 10/11/17 I chatted with a CSR about getting the truth about the OTA deal and the CSR stated that DirecTV has changed its mind on its ota decision that it made a few years ago to end ota support do to the amount of subscribers interested in it. I guess all the chatter over loosing OTA from the subscribers that have the AM21 and the amount of new local sub channels being advertised on their local stations and that got other subscribers to look into it for more options for there their TV viewing. The CSR stated that a new version of the AM21 is in the works and since TiVo bought out Gracenote with its big TV network guide data base that a new contract was in the works for DirecTV’s network program guide. TiVo also shares its DVR OS/software with DirecTV’s receivers and DVRs. The CSR stated he did not know when a new contact would be signed this year and when the updates would start up again on the existing AM21 listings. But you should see a new OTA tuner offered this year or next year. It would be a smaller usb ota tuner box or stick type that would be 480 SD to 4k UHD.

Till then you will just have to use Rabittears to populate your missing channels in the guide and to finding your Networks with the corresponding channel numbers. It took me a while to get most of my channels on guide and this is how I got most of my missing channels. I first made a list of all my local sub channels with there corresponding networks that were missing in the guide. Then I did a state by state search on Rabittears and scanned through all the local station channels in each major state/city market. I found some that had my networks on the same sub channels and others I could not. Then I looked up the zips for each city that had the channels I wanted to add to the guide list.

Hows to add channels to your guide? Run the initial ota setup, put in your main city zip and it scans for channels, than it asks you for a secondary city zip, (you can add as many secondary zips to fill in all your channels as you need to) then it scans again and then it’s completed. The trick is to never change your main city zip or do a reset and only change the secondary city zip. All the secondary zip really does is add channels to the guide list and does not remove or replace channels. You just have to run the initial ota setup each time you change the secondary zip to another city zip. After you have completed your channel updating you can select the channels that you want to be view able on the guide and to match as many networks with their corresponding sub channels. Sometimes a channel or two my disappear during an updating and all you need to do is re-run the zip that the channel is associated with again. If it should happen with the main zip you will need to use another zip(same zip will not work?) from the same city and no secondary zip.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

1) On 10/11/17 ? perhaps Jan, 10 ?
2) this is a dish forum


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## BLWedge09 (Jan 6, 2007)

Moved to DirecTV General Discussion.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

While I'd love to believe that's true, the CSRs seem to have inaccurate info about Directv's future plans at least as often as accurate info.

The claim that "Tivo shares its OS/software with Directv's receivers and DVRs" is most definitely not true.

Also, Tivo didn't buy out Gracenote, Rovi acquired Tivo. Tivo switched FROM Gracenote's (formerly known as Tribune) to Rovi's guide data as a result of this. Which has been a painful transition for us Tivo owners, as the Rovi guide data is of lower quality than Gracenote's even despite several months of working on things since the transition.

So based on those two wildly inaccurate statements, I'm going to file this in with "random stuff CSRs say that probably have little or no basis in fact".


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> So based on those two wildly inaccurate statements, I'm going to file this in with "random stuff CSRs say that probably have little or no basis in fact".


I'm filing it in the obviously "fake news" file. I can guarantee you that if you called in 100 times, the number of CSRs that would have any clue on what OTA or AM21 are would be *less then zero*. Even when they were selling the AM21, CSRs never heard of 'em. They have absolutely ZERO knowledge about contracts or what hardware or OS is shared between models.


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## dod1450 (Dec 16, 2009)

SledgeHammer said:


> I'm filing it in the obviously "fake news" file. I can guarantee you that if you called in 100 times, the number of CSRs that would have any clue on what OTA or AM21 are would be *less then zero*. Even when they were selling the AM21, CSRs never heard of 'em. They have absolutely ZERO knowledge about contracts or what hardware or OS is shared between models.


 Even the technicians that come to the house have no knowledge of the AM-21. 
Will Directv update their TV guide to included the new OTA sub channels?


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

dod1450 said:


> Even the technicians that come to the house have no knowledge of the AM-21.
> Will Directv update their TV guide to included the new OTA sub channels?


It's not their guide. It's their database for channels. It's currently maxed out and I don't see them rewriting their entire database but who knows. Maybe they will someday because of integrating with Uverse tv subscribers. But I doubt it.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Wishful thinking. Move on.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> It's not their guide. It's their database for channels. It's currently maxed out and I don't see them rewriting their entire database but who knows. Maybe they will someday because of integrating with Uverse tv subscribers. But I doubt it.


If they ever do release new OTA hardware, I'd expect they'd make changes to fix the 16 bit TMS ID problem. What would be the point of new hardware if it couldn't access 1/3 of the OTA stations out there (I think TMS IDs in the 90K range nowadays) With the coming repack and then maybe ATSC 3.0, the IDs are only going to mean more stations that can't be accessed via a 16 bit ID.

If they did, hopefully such a change wouldn't break the OTA from the H20/HR20/AM21, but I guess if they had improved OTA hardware most of us wouldn't care.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> I think TMS IDs in the 90K range nowadays)


They reached 100000 late last year, they're about to, or just did past 102000.

After the thing was first created, the rise of digital cable started, so providers that use their data starting providing listings for system specific public/educational/government access channels, then a bunch of cable companies requested specific edits for certain channels like ESPN and TBS so blackouts don't show up in the schedule. They also expanded to parts of Europe and Latin America which really drove up the count.

For the repack they're likely just going to reuse the existing IDs and change the RF number in their data just how they did post-transition and everyone with a digital signal on channels 52-69 moved down and others changed numbers. When you see RF number changes in the OTA database, that's not DirecTV's doing, that's TMS updating their data, the same when a long dormant subchannel becomes active again and is automatically added to the database. (i.e. here last time WNEPDT3 16-3 was active, it was very early on in the digital transition before the OTA database was a thing)


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

KyL416 said:


> They reached 100000 late last year, they're about to, or just did past 102000.
> 
> After the thing was first created, the rise of digital cable started, so providers that use their data starting providing listings for system specific public/educational/government access channels, then a bunch of cable companies requested specific edits for certain channels like ESPN and TBS so blackouts don't show up in the schedule. They also expanded to parts of Europe and Latin America which really drove up the count.
> 
> For the repack they're likely just going to reuse the existing IDs and change the RF number in their data just how they did post-transition and everyone with a digital signal on channels 52-69 moved down and others changed numbers. When you see RF number changes in the OTA database, that's not DirecTV's doing, that's TMS updating their data, the same when a long dormant subchannel becomes active again and is automatically added to the database. (i.e. here last time WNEPDT3 16-3 was active, it was very early on in the digital transition before the OTA database was a thing)


Thank you for the explanation, it always mystified me how the database could be maxed out when the total count of all primary channels, subchannels and even low power transmitters in the US was somewhere around 30,000 (I looked it up once and dont remember the exact number but 30000 is close)


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> if they had improved OTA hardware most of us wouldn't care.


I would. I'd love to get rid of my pizza box and 3 extra cables to free up some space and simplify wiring. Doesn't really make sense to release a new OTA dongle or whatever that doesn't support ATSC 3.0 and that isn't finalized yet.


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## dod1450 (Dec 16, 2009)

inkahauts said:


> It's not their guide. It's their database for channels. It's currently maxed out and I don't see them rewriting their entire database but who knows. Maybe they will someday because of integrating with Uverse tv subscribers. But I doubt it.


Why not they have all there programmers who are overseas who are doing nothing. Ever sinse ATT purchased Directv it seems that customers are getting less and less products. Just IHPO.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

This problem existed long before AT&T was going to purchase DirecTV. (Heck the removal of OTA scanning was done under DirecTV's watch, NOT AT&T's) When the database first started in the mid 00s they were only in the 40000s range (at that point what is AT&T today was still SBC). That 65535 (0xffff) limit was hit at some point in 2009.

I take it you don't know anything about integers and how they relate to compiled code. Changing a field from a 16 bit integer, 65535 (0xffff) to a 32 bit integer 4294967295 (0xffffffff) isn't trivial, especially when you're working with limited storage and memory. You have to change that value to a 32 bit integer EVERYWHERE it's used in the code, everywhere it's stored in memory, and everywhere it appears in the guide data stream, and once compiled makes the firmware significantly larger and the memory requirements higher. Even though the current possible highest TMS ID is around 102000, those leading zeroes before every number still take space when you store and use the value due to the way it's stored. (i.e. 102000 would be 0x00018E70 or 00 01 8E 70)

The OTA data comes from the same guide data stream as the satellite channels, it's kind of like additional local channels, but mapped to a RF number instead of a transponder and VPID. So as of now it needs to work from everything as far back as the last few pre-Dx receivers that support the APG data stream to the latest HR54. So if they would have addressed it in 2009, they would have had to modify the firmware for EVERY device that used the APG guide stream, including long forgotten devices like the Phillips DSX series which haven't gotten an actual firmware update since the early 00s, outside of random updates to support the change of daylight savings time. But because of the storage and memory thing involved, that's a non-starter for most of them. Post 2019 when MPEG2 goes away, they'll still need to support the H20, you know that device that didn't even have enough to support the HDUI. Even some of the HR2x's as well as the HR34 might have problems handling it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Are the TMS IDs transmitted OTA? If not, what is their relevance in matching EPG to the received signal?

DISH uses the OTA transmitted TSID to match the station and a second field to match the subchannel on whatever station is using that TSID. The TMS ID is not part of their data feed.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

The TMSID is how they ID the guide data and reference it, not how they match the OTA channels. DirecTV does their matching based on RF, major and/or minor number. It does a scan after you enter the zip codes, so it's able to pick up translators and repeaters as long as they have the same major and minor number of the main station, but it ignores stations not in the database. (This also allows you to do some tricks to get similar guide data using a station in a different market that uses the same number and is affiliated with the same network) With the RF and minor matching it can also pick up some weird cases like WCAU in Philly where WCAUDT3 62-3 is a simulcast of the Atlantic City based Telemundo affiliate, even though the database still has it as 10-3, it appears as 62-3 on the guide. The major/minor matching helps with situations like WNYW and WWOR in NYC where the 5-x and 9-x subchannels are split between both stations and because of Fox not caring to have it fixed with TMS, WWORDT2 9-2 has WWOR's RF number instead of WNYW's RF number.

They both have their benefits and draw backs. Dish's method depends on the station transmitting the correct TSID with their signal (a bunch of stations don't) as well as their data being mapped to the correct OTA channel numbers. DirecTV's method depends on the stations keeping TMS updated on any changes they make. One benefit for DirecTV is as long as the TMSID is under 65535, it's in the database, which helps with stations that last had subchannels early on in the transition when it was common for stations to have SD simulcasts or a doppler radar on a subchannel (i.e. 16-3 locally which returned as Justice Network last year, the last time it existed was in 2004 when it was a doppler radar, it still had the same TMSID, when Ion added a 4th channel for their O&O stations, it used the same TMSIDs they used when they carried Worship on -4). While it appears Dish just manually adds channels, but at least they scan so any missing channels appear for manual recordings. Also, for DirecTV you're limited to the two DMAs you enter as primary and secondary zip codes (you can stack additional zip codes, although you have to redo it each time you reset), while Dish just matches on TSID no matter which markets you get, so if you are in a sweet spot with access to 3 or more DMAs you can get them. (Although I'm not really sure how well Dish is if you're in a market where stations come from different locations and you have to rotate your antenna to get half the channels) Since Dish uses the TSID, you also can't detect things like repeaters that use the same major/minor numbers unless they are tied to the main station. i.e. translators would work since they use the same TSID as the primary station, but not -LD (Low Power) or -CD (Class A) repeaters which get assigned their own TSIDs.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

dod1450 said:


> Why not they have all there programmers who are overseas who are doing nothing. Ever sinse ATT purchased Directv it seems that customers are getting less and less products. Just IHPO.


DIRECTV still does their own programing in house here in Los Angeles. This is the same as it's always been, no less product at all for over the air. Heck they cleared out the am21 before att really had any control.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> I would. I'd love to get rid of my pizza box and 3 extra cables to free up some space and simplify wiring. Doesn't really make sense to release a new OTA dongle or whatever that doesn't support ATSC 3.0 and that isn't finalized yet.


Building a dongle that supports ATSC 3.0 when there are no ATSC 3.0 stations and won't be for several years at least would make no sense. It would use more power (with first gen ATSC 3.0 tuners maybe enough that it can't be powered by the USB port alone) and cost more due to all the patent licenses, which have all expired now for ATSC 1.0. I'd much rather see a cheap ATSC tuner, and they can offer a new one later to do ATSC 3.0 IF stations ever get on board with that.

Of course, I'm skeptical Directv ever does a new OTA tuner. They seem content to have fee fights and screw the customers over by inserting the X-1 slates in the guide, making OTA less useful even for those who have it.


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## pjs344 (May 21, 2014)

This has been interesting reading and once I read all the treads. I reviewed the CSR chat again and I guess I was duped by a smooth CSR that chatted like an Aussie. (no worries BS) I wonder if the Aussie CSR theme is common? 

One would wonder why Directv removed the scan option. I don't know what Directv would gain or loose by removing it. If Directv did not wont you to use the unsupported AM21 anymore or use it to manually DVR local programming Directv could of just removed the AM21 from the system.(removed from firmware/software or removed AM21 usb driver on receivers) Maybe the AM21 is embedded in the receivers and can't be removed? Does the AM21 operate independently or in combination with the receivers? Does the AM21 store the tv station data or the receiver? I have heard that some people have accessed the service mode in receivers in the past. But I do not believe an AM21 was connected to know if there was any options for the AM21 to change. I would check myself if I new how to access the service mode in my Genie. I am sure it's a few buttons on the remote or box to access it. Does anyone on here know how?


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

I dont know this for a fact but I think scanning was removed due to support issues. Customers would call in complaining that a channel had no guide data and even if you got a CSR that could properly explain the issue the explanation would go right over the head of most customers.

Regarding the "service mode" there is not a whole lot you can change. It is a bunch of tests and some status screens. You get to it by pressing buttons on the front of the receiver during boot up but I have forgotten the specifics


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

KyL416 said:


> Post 2019 when MPEG2 goes away, they'll still need to support the H20, you know that device that didn't even have enough to support the HDUI. Even some of the HR2x's as well as the HR34 might have problems handling it.


They could always change the way that guide data is handled for OTA channels. It wouldn't be impossible to allow receivers to integrate OTA guide data from another source, such as the internet, OTA channels that send EPG entries on their ATSC signal, or through some non-APG datastream on the satellite. Granted, it would require development resources, but if they really cared to do so, they could just have another source and internally in the firmware map that new source onto OTA channels from a new OTA adapter.

Now, I don't think there's any chance of that happening, but it would be wrong to act as if it's some kind of insurmountable problem.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I agree it isn't insurmountable, but they could have solved it at any time. The AM21 doesn't know or care about guide data, that's all on the receiver it is connected to. A new OTA device would have the same limitations unless the fix the underlying problem.

Some have speculated the guide data stream delivered via satellite to the receivers has a 16 bit field for the TMS_ID, leaving no room for higher numbered stations. Others have suggested it is a memory limitation in the receivers. I think the latter is pretty easy to rule out - the receivers don't need to hold the guide data for every OTA station in the US in their memory - just the ones for your market. In fact you can see they don't by the fact that it needs to access the satellite data stream to get station/guide info when you add a new market to the AM21. The '16 bit field in the data stream' can't necessarily be ruled out, but look at it this way. It is virtually certain there are unused bits elsewhere in the guide data stream format, and only one would need to be commandeered to expand to a capability of supporting a TMS_ID as high as 131,071 in a way that wouldn't negatively affect receivers that had yet to receive a software update to understand this, or never would (i.e. H20s that haven't received an update since 2013)

So I kind of wonder if the limitation is actually on their end, with some old software that handles the guide database that has only room for a 16 bit ID or 64K entries. Making a change like that on the 'server' side has real risk associated with it, since a bug could potentially screw up guide data, crash receivers, etc. Maybe they don't think it is worth the risk just to add some subchannels.

Either way, if they introduce a new OTA device, I would expect it to have the same limitations about what channels it can receive, and the same inability to scan. If they can address those things for a new device, there's no reason the changes made to support that wouldn't also fix the AM21.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

I wouldn't be so quick to assume they'd release another tuner with the same limitations. What would be the point? If they really cared enough to come up with a new device, it stands to reason they would fix some of the problems with the previous version.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

JosephB said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to assume they'd release another tuner with the same limitations. What would be the point? If they really cared enough to come up with a new device, it stands to reason they would fix some of the problems with the previous version.


Problems such as size, manufacturing cost, poor reception of multipath signals, and only having two OTA tuners? There are problems with it other than the TMS_ID limit. Perhaps they'd also build an ATSC 3.0 compatible version, since the spec is supposed to be finalized this spring and chips should be available before the end of the year.

But I remain skeptical they will do anything other than continue to ignore OTA.


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## pjs344 (May 21, 2014)

You would think that DTV and Dish would make it simple by having the ability to manually added networks from a list of provided available network listings and than by matching those network listings to each local channel. This way DTV and Dish would only need to provide the network listings and It would be up to the subscriber to match the network listing to each local channel. One could add, remove and change a network listing for each channel as they happen. For instance the setup could look like this. Scan - Available stations and channels list (Station IDs and all the channels offered by that station 2.1-2.10 etc) - select station and channel- add network for that channel(from the network list)- then select save. (Replete same process from select station and channel for all available stations and channels) Once all the stations, channels and networks are matched up - then select completed. You should now get all the right listings and time zones for each local stations channels. If a station changes networks you would return to station and channel - edit - change network from the list - select save - then completed. Now that channel will have the new network listings. If a station removes a network with no replacement or new network you would return to station and channel - remove channel(leave blank) - then save - then select completed. Now that channel will have no listings and be a blank listing. You would also need to do this with the newer networks that have no listings available yet.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

Unfortunately the networks supply a very small part of the local stations programming. For example our local CBS affiliate gets CBS This Morning form 7 - 9 AM, CBS news at 5:30 PM, Prime time from 7 - 10 PM , and late night from 10:35 to 12:35. Everything else is local, syndicated, or infomercial


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> But I remain skeptical they will do anything other than continue to ignore OTA.


I am in complete agreement with you here. If DirecTV were still independent, I would not be so absolute, but with AT&T ownership and their heavy push to new internet delivered services, mobile viewing, and the eventual replacement of U-Verse TV with a DirecTV based system, this is probably not on the radar at all.

Dish is supposedly coming out with a new dual tuner OTA adapter next week, but even then they still have similar issues. Many markets are missing guide data and OTA features on the Hopper are buggy. They won't even have the second tuner enabled in software until summer.

On the other hand, Dish's new adapter seems to just be an off the shelf USB PC tuner, much like Microsoft did with the Xbox. Basically requires no hardware development. The tuners exist, they just need some software written to make them work with their set tops


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

JosephB said:


> On the other hand, Dish's new adapter seems to just be an off the shelf USB PC tuner, much like Microsoft did with the Xbox. Basically requires no hardware development. The tuners exist, they just need some software written to make them work with their set tops


Its possible that the AM21 isn't the only tuner that works with a Directv box. I wonder if you plugged it into a PC, what it would identify itself as via USB, and if you could get it to work on a PC given the proper driver? I find it difficult to believe Directv would have had an OTA chip developed just for them, instead of buying one off the shelf. If so, then other USB tuners that use the same chip should work as well. They'd be older ones, but if so they'd probably be available cheap on eBay - a lot cheaper than an AM21 and a lot smaller too.

Obviously Directv wouldn't support such a thing, but given that they don't really support the AM21 anymore either that's not really a concern


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

Oh I can guarantee they didn't develop the OTA tuner themselves, but the USB interface may or may not be custom, or, it may be running completely different firmware that would prevent it from working on a PC. I used to have an AM21 when I was a DirecTV customer, but I think it's packed up in storage somewhere. Maybe one day if I find it I'll give that a shot. I would not expect it to work or be detected as anything but an unknown device, though. It might not even speak true USB or true to spec USB, depending on how they need to talk to the receiver

When it comes to the "off the shelf"-ness of the new Dish and the existing Xbox One tuners, they are literally just off the shelf. I think the new Dish one will have Dish silkscreened on the case, but is otherwise supposed to be identical to one sold at retail for PCs. The whole delay is supposedly due to getting drivers written, so it leads me to believe it's a normally Windows compatible device that needs Linux drivers written

And the Xbox One tuner is literally just a Hauppage WinTV tuner. I got one of the "beta" tuners and it was just a retail PC box. The "Xbox" edition is just the exact same one with the same firmware, just with a black case and the box says Xbox One compatible on it. Makes sense since the Xbox runs Windows. No new drivers required, just application support in the XBone dashboard.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I made a note to plug one of my AM21s (I might try an AM21N too since it may be slightly different) into my laptop. It is running Linux so I can easily get a lot of USB debugging info, and since Directv receivers run Linux, they'd need a tuner chip that has Linux drivers available.


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## trainman (Jan 9, 2008)

longrider said:


> Unfortunately the networks supply a very small part of the local stations programming. For example our local CBS affiliate gets CBS This Morning form 7 - 9 AM, CBS news at 5:30 PM, Prime time from 7 - 10 PM , and late night from 10:35 to 12:35. Everything else is local, syndicated, or infomercial


You're forgetting about CBS's daytime programming -- "Let's Make a Deal," "The Price Is Right," "Bold and the Beautiful," "The Young and the Restless," and "The Talk."

But I assume pjs344's proposal (assign a network to an "unknown" channel, and generic listings for that network appear) is not aimed at affiliates of the major networks, but is more aimed at being able to provide listings for the various networks that are usually carried on digital subchannels, which do have 24/7 programming and are only rarely pre-empted by individual stations.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> I made a note to plug one of my AM21s (I might try an AM21N too since it may be slightly different) into my laptop. It is running Linux so I can easily get a lot of USB debugging info, and since Directv receivers run Linux, they'd need a tuner chip that has Linux drivers available.


So all you'd really need to do is determine if the AM21 is doing anything custom vs any standard off the shelf USB tuner... the USB portion itself has probably got to be standard, but they might do something custom in the data itself. Once you determine what the custom stuff is, you might be able to take a standard USB tuner and do a man in the middle approach to emulate the AM21. Opening up the AM21 and determine what chip they use could also be a hint.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> So all you'd really need to do is determine if the AM21 is doing anything custom vs any standard off the shelf USB tuner... the USB portion itself has probably got to be standard, but they might do something custom in the data itself. Once you determine what the custom stuff is, you might be able to take a standard USB tuner and do a man in the middle approach to emulate the AM21. Opening up the AM21 and determine what chip they use could also be a hint.


I really doubt it is doing anything custom. The only thing that I think they might have done would be to have it report a non-standard USB ID....it isn't like there is any reason to obfuscate it since it is outputting OTA, not unencrypted HDMI.

Yeah, I guess I could open the thing up and take a look inside, if the chip's markings are legible that would provide a clue.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> I really doubt it is doing anything custom. The only thing that I think they might have done would be to have it report a non-standard USB ID....it isn't like there is any reason to obfuscate it since it is outputting OTA, not unencrypted HDMI.
> 
> Yeah, I guess I could open the thing up and take a look inside, if the chip's markings are legible that would provide a clue.


Yeah, I doubt it is doing anything "custom" in that it's out of USB spec, but it could be a custom firmware on the controller that would then require custom drivers, even if the OTA tuner is a standard Broadcom or other off the shelf chipset. I find that to be highly likely.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

JosephB said:


> Yeah, I doubt it is doing anything "custom" in that it's out of USB spec, but it could be a custom firmware on the controller that would then require custom drivers, even if the OTA tuner is a standard Broadcom or other off the shelf chipset. I find that to be highly likely.


So what's stopping an off the shelf OTA tuner from working? If the AM21 is just a standard OTA tuner and not doing anything custom, I'd think any dongle would work... unless its checking for the mfgr string or something and it has to say "DIRECTV" or something.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

SledgeHammer said:


> So what's stopping an off the shelf OTA tuner from working? If the AM21 is just a standard OTA tuner and not doing anything custom, I'd think any dongle would work... unless its checking for the mfgr string or something and it has to say "DIRECTV" or something.


Because when I say "standard" I mean it's a standard USB device. It will still require device-specific drivers, there's no "universal" OTA USB standard like, say, for USB thumb drives or USB web cameras. Those are standard USB devices, but on top of that there are "standard" ways to present drives and cameras and sound devices. There just isn't one of those standards for a USB ATSC tuner.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

JosephB said:


> Because when I say "standard" I mean it's a standard USB device. It will still require device-specific drivers, there's no "universal" OTA USB standard like, say, for USB thumb drives or USB web cameras. Those are standard USB devices, but on top of that there are "standard" ways to present drives and cameras and sound devices. There just isn't one of those standards for a USB ATSC tuner.


Directv receivers would only have a driver for the specific chip used in the AM21, so I agree the only OTA tuners with a chance of working would have to have the same chip, or a close enough relative that they share the same driver.

Of course that assumes the chip was ever used in a USB attached OTA tuner other than the AM21. Maybe it was only ever used in a PCI card, or in one of those converter boxes made to ease the ATSC transition.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> Maybe it was only ever used in a PCI card, or in one of those converter boxes made to ease the ATSC transition.


I hope soon we will know  ... isn't someone mentioned he would open the box ?


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## pjs344 (May 21, 2014)

I have hooked my AM21 to my windows 10 PC usb 2.0 and the AM21 was recognized. But windows could not come up with a driver for it. I am sure it’s a Unix driver and if I had a Unix PC it might have worked? I also opened the box (Used the slandered torx security screws) and it’s all marked DirecTV except for the Samsung tuner module. The pcb is about the same size as the older Hauppage USB dual tuner HVR 1955. As I recall there were only 2 mfrs that built the dual ATSC tuners back when the AM21 came out and Hauppage was one of them. So the Hauppage HVR may very well be the AM21 and setup to only work with the DirecTV Receivers?


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## pjs344 (May 21, 2014)

longrider said:


> Unfortunately the networks supply a very small part of the local stations programming. For example our local CBS affiliate gets CBS This Morning form 7 - 9 AM, CBS news at 5:30 PM, Prime time from 7 - 10 PM , and late night from 10:35 to 12:35. Everything else is local, syndicated, or infomercial


The list would have the same local guide listings for the local channels that you get now and are inserted automatically after doing a scan of your locals. With the manual guide insertion method you would have no guide info on any of the channels that show up after running a scan of your local channels and you would have to insert your local stations network guides into each channel from the list. The list will also have the majority of the sub networks (could be updated quarterly or half year) that are available for insertion. Now you just find out what sub networks should be on each sub channel that dose not have a guide listing and insert the right guide listing for that channel.

You should not have changes in programming with independent tv stations because independents get programming off satellites to rebroadcast ota and only have a master control center where they insert commercials. Network stations have production studios (news etc), satellite programming, live remotes, master control and can preempt programming for other programming on sub channels.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

pjs344 said:


> I have hooked my AM21 to my windows 10 PC usb 2.0 and the AM21 was recognized. But windows could not come up with a driver for it. I am sure it's a Unix driver and if I had a Unix PC it might have worked? I also opened the box (Used the slandered torx security screws) and it's all marked DirecTV except for the Samsung tuner module. The pcb is about the same size as the older Hauppage USB dual tuner HVR 1955. As I recall there were only 2 mfrs that built the dual ATSC tuners back when the AM21 came out and Hauppage was one of them. So the Hauppage HVR may very well be the AM21 and setup to only work with the DirecTV Receivers?


Did you try force install the Hauppage driver?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

pjs344 said:


> I have hooked my AM21 to my windows 10 PC usb 2.0 and the AM21 was recognized. But windows could not come up with a driver for it. I am sure it's a Unix driver and if I had a Unix PC it might have worked? I also opened the box (Used the slandered torx security screws) and it's all marked DirecTV except for the Samsung tuner module. The pcb is about the same size as the older Hauppage USB dual tuner HVR 1955. As I recall there were only 2 mfrs that built the dual ATSC tuners back when the AM21 came out and Hauppage was one of them. So the Hauppage HVR may very well be the AM21 and setup to only work with the DirecTV Receivers?


What would be really helpful if you would post a picture of the PCB (both side, j/c) and provide correct model of all big chips there and VID/PID of the USB interface.
The VID would tell us a mfg, PID would reveal a family or close PC model.
PC driver for Windows and Linux are different kind and avail by mfg.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

pjs344 said:


> I have hooked my AM21 to my windows 10 PC usb 2.0 and the AM21 was recognized. But windows could not come up with a driver for it. I am sure it's a Unix driver and if I had a Unix PC it might have worked? I also opened the box (Used the slandered torx security screws) and it's all marked DirecTV except for the Samsung tuner module. The pcb is about the same size as the older Hauppage USB dual tuner HVR 1955. As I recall there were only 2 mfrs that built the dual ATSC tuners back when the AM21 came out and Hauppage was one of them. So the Hauppage HVR may very well be the AM21 and setup to only work with the DirecTV Receivers?


Drivers for Linux don't really work that way. I doubt that OTA tuner drivers are going to be included by default in any major Linux distribution. You'd have to manually set it up and install the drivers. Also, I wouldn't even expect the drivers to be included with Windows. Maybe if you did a search on Windows Update for the drivers they'd show up for some of the major Hauppage devices, but even then I'd be a little surprised.

OTA tuners aren't on the same level as USB flash drives and regardless you're likely going to have to supply some drivers instead of having it automatically detected. As was said earlier, if you can get some of the device IDs it will be easier to find what drivers might work.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Actually distributions do tend to include a lot of tuner drivers. Check out /lib/modules/<version>/kernel/drivers/media in a recent Fedora, for instance. You might need to hunt around for a more obscure one, but a lot of popular ones are included by default.

Anyway, I connected my laptop to an AM21 this morning, and it identified itself as follows:

[240626.871291] usb 1-2: new high-speed USB device number 5 using xhci_hcd
[240627.041018] usb 1-2: New USB device found, idVendor=0609, idProduct=0003
[240627.041024] usb 1-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=2, Product=1, SerialNumber=0
[240627.041028] usb 1-2: Product: DIRECTV USB Tuner Device v1
[240627.041031] usb 1-2: Manufacturer: DIRECTV,Inc.

Since it is identifying itself as a Directv device, I'd be willing to bet the firmware checks for that. So I didn't bother to open it up...not really any point, since even if you got a USB tuner with an identical chipset it wouldn't identify itself the same way and the receivers almost certainly wouldn't talk with it. If someone discovers differently do please let us know, but I think it is very likely a waste of time.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> Actually distributions do tend to include a lot of tuner drivers. Check out /lib/modules/<version>/kernel/drivers/media in a recent Fedora, for instance. You might need to hunt around for a more obscure one, but a lot of popular ones are included by default.
> 
> Anyway, I connected my laptop to an AM21 this morning, and it identified itself as follows:
> 
> ...


Yep, that means that the controller itself is more or less completely custom to DirecTV. It might use a Samsung or Broadcom or even Hauppage ATSC tuner, but that really doesn't matter--it all comes down to the USB controller, which looks like it was all in house (which is not surprising at all)


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> Actually distributions do tend to include a lot of tuner drivers. Check out /lib/modules/<version>/kernel/drivers/media in a recent Fedora, for instance. You might need to hunt around for a more obscure one, but a lot of popular ones are included by default.
> 
> Anyway, I connected my laptop to an AM21 this morning, and it identified itself as follows:
> 
> ...


stop,stop,stop ...
you wrote to much ! 

By Internet it manufactured by SMK Manufacturing, Inc.

just remove all words exclude VID/PID as only the two parameters used to install a driver
here is extortion from an example of setup INI for some USB driver:
[RegIni]
Type=1
HarewareId=vid_0547&pid_1002
OtherId=vid_6022&pid_0001
VID=0547
PID=1002
Other strings are just strings and usually not used for drivers, perhaps applications would take care or not

Another place to check is Device Manager [<USB device>: Details:Hardware IDs] - try two same/different thumb drives and see by yourself what the difference there


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

P Smith said:


> stop,stop,stop ...
> you wrote to much !
> 
> By Internet it manufactured by SMK Manufacturing, Inc.
> ...


Probably just their contract manufacturer. According to this page: http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids they also have created IR remote receivers which makes sense. At any rate it's incredibly unlikely that you'll find any publicly available drivers out there, and more importantly to the topic of this thread, it means that there isn't going to be an off-the-shelf retail OTA tuner that you could use with your DirecTV receiver.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> Other strings are just strings and usually not used for drivers, perhaps applications would take care or not


I know that the driver itself doesn't care about the text identification, but recompiling the firmware to adjust the text ID probably means the USB ID was adjusted to. I doubt there was any other customization of the firmware - what sort of custom behavior would Directv need from a tuner after all?

The problem is that even if I cracked the case and found out what chip it uses, and found another USB tuner using the same chip, because the IDs were customized the Directv receiver won't talk to it. Its too bad, it would be nice if there was a more reasonably sized tuner you could attach - if I could get something like that for a reasonable price (say $50) I'd probably sell off all my H20s and replace with H25s. Heck if I sold off the AM21s and H24s also I might break even on the whole deal


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> I know that the driver itself doesn't care about the text identification, but recompiling the firmware to adjust the text ID probably means the USB ID was adjusted to. I doubt there was any other customization of the firmware - what sort of custom behavior would Directv need from a tuner after all?
> 
> The problem is that even if I cracked the case and found out what chip it uses, and found another USB tuner using the same chip, because the IDs were customized the Directv receiver won't talk to it. Its too bad, it would be nice if there was a more reasonably sized tuner you could attach - if I could get something like that for a reasonable price (say $50) I'd probably sell off all my H20s and replace with H25s. Heck if I sold off the AM21s and H24s also I might break even on the whole deal


Seeing as AM21s are selling for ~$200 on eBay if you can even find a clean one, I'd say if you put in a weekend or two and solved all this, you could probably sell your "Slice Tuners" for $100 or so. I have a working AM21, but if you made a "Slice Tuner" the size of the Hauppauge and sold it for $100 pre-flashed or whatever, I'd buy one to replace my AM21. Just saying... ... once you figure out the first one, the rest are just reflashes.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

When Hi Definition first came out dtv launched a receiver (ok rca / proscan) called the dtc-100. 

It did satellite and you could hit an input button and then get a digital tuner for over the air. The guides where totally separate. 

We where then supposed to get the hrhd -500 unit (I think that's the model number might be slightly different) that was branded as a Mitsubishi unit. This unit was supposed to be the first that would have both the satellite and digital over the air guide integrated into one guide data stream. When this unit finally came out it actually hit more than one year later than originally set for delivery to stores. This wasn't the public time frame dtv announced. That was actually longer. This was the manufacturer and their promise of actual shipping dates to our buyers. The reason was that they could not get the guide data to intergrate properly. That's right it took them a year or more to get it right. That's why I always chuckle when someone says it's easy to integrate the guide data of digital and satellite. It's just not.

Course later on they came out with the Hughes version of that box. And then we got several subsequent boxes from several manufacturers. 

And geese 200 on eBay? Maybe I need to sell one or two of mine now...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> I know that the driver itself doesn't care about the text identification, but recompiling the firmware to adjust the text ID probably means the USB ID was adjusted to. I doubt there was any other customization of the firmware


That's why posted a question if internal AM21 chip (customized or not) (I see it as not require any customization at all - ATSC standard does cover everything what need to produce TS and generic set of command to tune and respond to host with parameters of the lock).
As to VIP/PID and mfg strings - well, it's not a problem to change all of them, usually USB bridge chip has a provision to store the info in tiny EEPROM. If you don't have OEM utility to make your own USB IDs data, just reprogram the EEPROM on standalone programmer.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> ....................And geese 200 on eBay? Maybe I need to sell one or two of mine now...


I sold a couple brand new in box last October on eBay.....highest I got was $303.00 for one of them but included free shipping. I was shocked..........


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Dish's new USB OAT tuner just started shipping...


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> ... That's why I always chuckle when someone says it's easy to integrate the guide data of digital and satellite. It's just not. ...


...but that was never really the issue. The design flaw that D* continues to stand by is the need for guide data at all. Dish does this right - get guide data if you can, leave a blank placeholder in the guide if you can't, but *ALLOW THE CHANNEL TO TUNE!
*
i bristle every time i read anything about the OTA solution, and see so much back/forth on the guide data. It's total nonsense. D* continues to be the only known OTA solution that doesn't allow scanning.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

hancox said:


> ...but that was never really the issue. The design flaw that D* continues to stand by is the need for guide data at all. Dish does this right - get guide data if you can, leave a blank placeholder in the guide if you can't, but *ALLOW THE CHANNEL TO TUNE!
> *
> i bristle every time i read anything about the OTA solution, and see so much back/forth on the guide data. It's total nonsense. D* continues to be the only known OTA solution that doesn't allow scanning.


If the channel is in the guide then it's interacting with the guide data. Period.

I don't disagree it would be nice to have. But I know it's not that simple. Dish started from the ground up different I think which is why they don't have this issue.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> That's why I always chuckle when someone says it's easy to integrate the guide data of digital and satellite. It's just not.


So, some things to keep in mind about that

First, that receiver, according to very quick and short research so it might be off slightly was released around 2000. In 2000 they were still on the old MPG guide data. Also back in 2000, receivers had very very slow processors and very limited amounts of memory. That was also back in the day where different manufacturers were responsible for the design of the hardware and software of the receivers, not necessarily DirecTV. DirecTV just provided specs that they had to meet. Also, back then, there were no internet connected receivers. It was a time where they had never tried to do that before and ATSC was new and trying to integrate different sources was new

Fast forward to today and the receivers are on a single unified software platform that is controlled 100% by DirecTV. The satellite guide data is the new APG guide format. Also, receivers today have vastly more memory and faster processors, and they have internet connectivity along with more bandwidth on the satellites available. Plus, they've had 15-20 years of experience now. This is not a new novel problem that just appeared.

Yes, we do not fully understand what it means to try to integrate this data, but it is not impossible. We have put men on the moon. It is just a question of how important it is to DirecTV to try to get it done.


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## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

patmurphey said:


> Dish's new USB OAT tuner just started shipping...


Rumored to be about $60. If so, win-win.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

drpjr said:


> Rumored to be about $60. If so, win-win.


please, do not drug the thread off-topic


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

P Smith said:


> please, do not drug the thread off-topic


Kinda on topic. Since the AM21's are discontinued, people on eBay are price gouging. An AM21 will run you $200 to $300 if you can even find one.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I almost think I should sell my H24s and AM21s and pick up more H20s to take advantage of the ridiculous prices


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

While no integrated guide with D*, before I'd pay those kinds of prices, I would buy the Magnavox OTA HD DVR and use it, which is what I'll do if my two AM21s give out.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

hasan said:


> While no integrated guide with D*, before I'd pay those kinds of prices, I would buy the Magnavox OTA HD DVR and use it, which is what I'll do if my two AM21s give out.


Similar situation here ...

Have 4 AM21s attached to HR24s and have already forewarned the affected family members that should any of them break, they're on their own with what they want to do about it as DIRECTV won't help you now.

You can do without DVR'ing OTA and simply use the TV's built in ATSC tuner ...

Pay the price gouging cost for another AM21 off ebay or something.

Get an OTA TIVO like I did or I'll setup a MoCA D band network over the OTA coax plant and they can get a TIVO Mini client to share mine.

Or get another OTA DVR.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

If you have four AM21s, you could probably buy an OTA only Bolt or Roamio with lifetime (called "all in" now I believe) plus three minis then sell the AM21s and make money


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Kinda on topic. Since the AM21's are discontinued, people on eBay are price gouging............


I don't necessarily/completely agree with that wording.....I started my auction for the AM22's at $10 + free shipping, then the marketplace took over based on supply/demand curves that we all learned in economics class.

My 'gut' on DirecTV OTA (based on everything else AT&T has recently eliminated), is that there will be zero new hardware in the future. The Death Star has killed and sucked in another valuable component that 'we' use all the time.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Didn't Directv basically kill OTA before AT&T even took over?



codespy said:


> I don't necessarily/completely agree with that wording.....I started my auction for the AM22's at $10 + free shipping, then the marketplace took over based on supply/demand curves that we all learned in economics class.
> 
> My 'gut' on DirecTV OTA (based on everything else AT&T has recently eliminated), is that there will be zero new hardware in the future. The Death Star has killed and sucked in another valuable component that 'we' use all the time.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

raott said:


> Didn't Directv basically kill OTA before AT&T even took over?


Technically no...they were still selling them for $50. AT&T took over in July, 2015, then in September, 2015 AT&T discontinued sales of the AM21. They were still supporting replacements under the protection plan until they ran out. The last replacements I got were in January, 2016 when I called. By about late summer of 2016 or so, the stock was depleted. I called in October, 2016 and still have an approved order for 6 more, but shipping has not been fulfilled.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Say BTW;

While I know it's probably inadvisable to do this. But anyone care to guess if there is really sufficient MoCA bandwidth on the DIRECTV WH coax network to share it with just one OTA TIVO to TIVO Mini client communication?

Know I'm supposed to setup a separate MoCA D band network over the OTA antenna coax plant for this. But brother is interested now to get up and running soon with a TIVO Mini after tiring of the poor performance and missing newer subchannels on one of the AM21s on an HR24 in his "man-cave" type room.

So wants to pair a client with my Roamio OTA and it sure would be nice to save the $150 - $200 for a pair of MoCA D band adapters for now ... 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Say BTW;
> 
> While I know it's probably inadvisable to do this. But anyone care to guess if there is really sufficient MoCA bandwidth on the DIRECTV WH coax network to share it with just one OTA TIVO to TIVO Mini client communication?
> 
> ...


MoCA 1.1 has about 140 Mbps of usable bandwidth, even if he's watching an OTA channel that doesn't share with a subchannel that's only 19.2 Mbps of additional bandwidth at the most. So I don't see why it wouldn't work.


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

HoTat2 said:


> Say BTW;
> 
> While I know it's probably inadvisable to do this. But anyone care to guess if there is really sufficient MoCA bandwidth on the DIRECTV WH coax network to share it with just one OTA TIVO to TIVO Mini client communication?
> 
> ...


As long as everything is in good shape, should be fine. There's way more than enough bandwidth on a MoCA network, but they leave a lot of overhead room in case things aren't 100% perfect, so that they can tolerate lower bandwidth than expected


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

According to a poster on the 'other site', Directv is indeed working on a new OTA module, and it will work with the HS17 (who knows about other hardware) He got the info from inside Directv, not an installer or CSR, so hopefully should be reliable. It also sounded like Stuart at Solid Signal was hinting at much the same thing yesterday.

If true, that's great news. Given that it has been a year now since they ran out of AM21s I have a hard time believing it is just an ordinary ATSC 1.0 module - if so, why would it take so long when they could simply relabel one of the many USB attached dongles available on the market? He said he hasn't heard anything about ATSC 3.0 support, but I'm going to hope/assume waiting for the final parts of that spec to be finalized and chips to be ready is the reason for this delay. There are no ATSC 3.0 stations today, but they're coming so might as well be ready.

The unanswered question is whether Directv will do anything about the AM21's other limitations - i.e. not being able to receive every station and having full scanning disabled. Those weren't limitations of the AM21's hardware, but of Directv's guide data format only having room for a certain number of station IDs (up to 65535) that was exceeded years ago, and a decision to disable scanning rather than have stations show up without guide data. If they don't address that then the new OTA module would be sort of a good news/bad news situation, but I guess that's better than an all bad news situation.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

While I hope someone at Directv is working on something for OTA on the HS17, if I can bet, I will bet against it. 

OTA is a foreign language around Directv. When I was at a conference earlier this year with Directv employees from California and Texas, not one of them knew what OTA meant, ever heard of the AM21 and asked if rain fade is really a serious problem?

If you live in S. Calif, its not a problem therefore it doesn't exist.

This is one time I want to be proven wrong.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Well I have no idea who the guy on the other site is, but it sure sounds like he's getting his info from within Directv from someone who would actually know what is going on. That's no guarantee (Scott over there was insisting there was going to be an HR64 even after the HS17-100 appeared on the FCC's site, so whoever was telling him stuff was obviously far out of the loop or simply making things up) but in combination with Stuart also saying something I think he's likely got good sources. We know Stuart has good sources within Directv, so his implication that OTA support is coming is worth a lot, IMHO.

Even when Directv had the AM21 most CSRs and installers had no idea what it is, so a new OTA dongle isn't going to fare any better in that respect. It is almost certainly going to be something you'll need to procure and install yourself, like the AM21 was, and if you have problems and call Directv the CSR will have no clue what you're talking about


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm hoping that the new OTA module will have scanning, so that I can get the several new sub-channels that have been added in my area. I could live without the program descriptions, just allow the channels be added.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

jdspencer said:


> I'm hoping that the new OTA module will have scanning, so that I can get the several new sub-channels that have been added in my area. I could live without the program descriptions, just allow the channels be added.


The module itself has nothing to do with whether scanning is possible, that's all in the software that controls it. The AM21 used to do full scanning, until Directv decided to disable it and it became "scans looking only for channels in Directv's database".

We'll just have to see how it works, and if it has similar limitations to the AM21 hope that they'll address that eventually (maybe in 2019 when they retire MPEG2 hardware they'll be able to change the format of the guide data stream)


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Well I have no idea who the guy on the other site is, but it sure sounds like he's getting his info from within Directv from someone who would actually know what is going on. That's no guarantee (Scott over there was insisting there was going to be an HR64 even after the HS17-100 appeared on the FCC's site, so whoever was telling him stuff was obviously far out of the loop or simply making things up) but in combination with Stuart also saying something I think he's likely got good sources. We know Stuart has good sources within Directv, so his implication that OTA support is coming is worth a lot, IMHO.
> 
> Even when Directv had the AM21 most CSRs and installers had no idea what it is, so a new OTA dongle isn't going to fare any better in that respect. It is almost certainly going to be something you'll need to procure and install yourself, like the AM21 was, and if you have problems and call Directv the CSR will have no clue what you're talking about


Idk. Stuart and solid signal completely bungled the Hs-17 launch and still don't have there website correct


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> The module itself has nothing to do with whether scanning is possible, that's all in the software that controls it. The AM21 used to do full scanning, until Directv decided to disable it and it became "scans looking only for channels in Directv's database".............


Mostly correct, but there is one DirecTV HD-DVR that still scans the AM-2x for all channels, and that is the 'not-as-popular' THR22-100 DirecTiVo IRD. Like you said, it's the software of the IRD that drives that option.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I wonder if it’s a real over the air module or if it’s the over the air stations via streaming they where talking about for a DIRECTV now service they plan on making available to all DIRECTV people too....


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> I wonder if it's a real over the air module or if it's the over the air stations via streaming they where talking about for a DIRECTV now service they plan on making available to all DIRECTV people too....


If you could bet I think that's probably the answer, but doesn't help to get all those sub channels that aren't streamed on DIRECTV Now.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

No way it is something to stream the channels, especially given that Directv Now doesn't have anywhere near all the contracts in place to deliver locals. It didn't have any CBS affiliates at all until a few weeks ago. It will take several years to fill in all the gaps to provide even those locals you can get via satellite. That also doesn't help those who don't have a good internet pipe or address the thing most people want OTA for, those subchannels to get MeTV and so forth.

But most of all - why in the world would they built a separate device for a streaming option, instead of just adding it in software to the receiver?


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## glrush (Jun 29, 2002)

Does anyone think that this may be a play by DirecTV to make the HS-17 more "palatable" to a broader audience to drive the upgrade cycle and/or to give people a way to keep recording their network shows during carriage disputes? I know for me the HS-17 is a non-starter without the ability to record off-air stuff and when KCRG went off DirecTV a couple years ago, it was no biggie to me since I have an AIM-21 hooked up to my Genie and I get all the network channels and most of the subs OTA. I want to upgrade but lack of OTA support is making me pause or even consider looking at another provider.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> No way it is something to stream the channels, especially given that Directv Now doesn't have anywhere near all the contracts in place to deliver locals. It didn't have any CBS affiliates at all until a few weeks ago. It will take several years to fill in all the gaps to provide even those locals you can get via satellite. That also doesn't help those who don't have a good internet pipe or address the thing most people want OTA for, those subchannels to get MeTV and so forth.
> 
> But most of all - why in the world would they built a separate device for a streaming option, instead of just adding it in software to the receiver?


I'm summing whatever this person saw being built will come out as quickly as the PC Card did...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

glrush said:


> Does anyone think that this may be a play by DirecTV to make the HS-17 more "palatable" to a broader audience to drive the upgrade cycle and/or to give people a way to keep recording their network shows during carriage disputes? I know for me the HS-17 is a non-starter without the ability to record off-air stuff and when KCRG went off DirecTV a couple years ago, it was no biggie to me since I have an AIM-21 hooked up to my Genie and I get all the network channels and most of the subs OTA. I want to upgrade but lack of OTA support is making me pause or even consider looking at another provider.


I think they have the numbers for how many have AM21 and therefore know they don't need to care about it one bit... I don't think hardly anyone uses over the air with DIRECTV. I'd guess it in the thousands...


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## Billzebub (Jan 2, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> I think they have the numbers for how many have AM21 and therefore know they don't need to care about it one bit... I don't think hardly anyone uses over the air with DIRECTV. I'd guess it in the thousands...


Yes but.......
In the old days DIRECTV had channels the other services didn't. Today, most of the channels that are really popular, everyone has. Other then Sunday Ticket, i can't think of anything that differentiates DIRECTV from the other services.
On the other hand, DIRECTVs app is inferior to Xfinity and cable can deliver sub-channels while DIRECTV doesn't. 
The days of DIRECTV being miles ahead of the other services are over.

Unless you need Sunday Ticket, the only thing keeping you with DIRECTV is inertia.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Billzebub said:


> Yes but.......
> In the old days DIRECTV had channels the other services didn't. Today, most of the channels that are really popular, everyone has. Other then Sunday Ticket, i can't think of anything that differentiates DIRECTV from the other services.
> On the other hand, DIRECTVs app is inferior to Xfinity and cable can deliver sub-channels while DIRECTV doesn't.
> The days of DIRECTV being miles ahead of the other services are over.
> ...


That and DIRECTV has about 30 more HD channels than my cable company


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

I remember this article from 2013.

DirecTV Looks to Test Off-Air Antenna in Set-Top | Multichannel


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Billzebub said:


> Yes but.......
> In the old days DIRECTV had channels the other services didn't. Today, most of the channels that are really popular, everyone has. Other then Sunday Ticket, i can't think of anything that differentiates DIRECTV from the other services.
> On the other hand, DIRECTVs app is inferior to Xfinity and cable can deliver sub-channels while DIRECTV doesn't.
> The days of DIRECTV being miles ahead of the other services are over.
> ...


You clearly do not live in Los Angeles... :lol:


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

TheRatPatrol said:


> I remember this article from 2013.
> 
> DirecTV Looks to Test Off-Air Antenna in Set-Top | Multichannel


Talking about retransmission cost brings up another possibility for this. Maybe instead of being a way for people to keep watching during a dispute, they'll use it as a way to unbundle the locals from packages? Break it out separately on your bill so you see the true cost, and allow you to drop them and save that money if you can pick them up OTA.

In my recent cable bills, Mediacom shows over _nine dollars a month_ for locals....if there was an option for me to drop them, and hook up an OTA antenna to my Tivo (in addition to cable, which it can't do since it is either/or not both) and save that money I'd do it. If Directv gives people that option, I'm sure many would be happy to buy an OTA dongle for $50 if they're saving that kind of money every month - and be permanently protected against disputes.

Of course that assumes station owners (the big conglomerates like Sinclar that own hundreds of stations, not the individual stations) wouldn't change their negotiating tactics and charge Directv for every customer they have so there are no savings to pass on to their customers. Heck, for all I know that's already the case.

I'm actually surprised that Directv doesn't break out the cost of locals on people's bills separately, since they do it for RSNs, and the cost of locals is probably higher in most markets. They wouldn't have to increase package pricing by as much each year, since a good chunk that of increase happens because of the spiraling cost of locals.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Oh well ...

I hope there's something else coming for OTA since

I guess it's official ...

Its totally "Turn out the lights the party's over" for the AM21 at least.

Latest from Stuart, from what I gather is based on his inside contacts at DIRECTV ...

Solid Signal Blog - REVISED: Can you use a DIRECTV AM21 with an HD receiver?

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


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## Michael H.. (May 31, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> ... I'm actually surprised that Directv doesn't break out the cost of locals on people's bills separately, since they do it for RSNs, and the cost of locals is probably higher in most markets. They wouldn't have to increase package pricing by as much each year, since a good chunk that of increase happens because of the spiraling cost of locals.


Actually they still do... I'm grandfathered in, on "Premiere No Locals" from an era when there wasn't any LIL.
I'm charged $3.00 less (and it's been that amount since LIL appeared).
Have DNS 389-399 and AM21's on all DVR's so CONUS and local OTA network broadcasts.
Eligible to add LIL and keep DNS but haven't felt the need to.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Well I have no idea who the guy on the other site is, but it sure sounds like he's getting his info from within Directv from someone who would actually know what is going on. That's no guarantee (Scott over there was insisting there was going to be an HR64 even after the HS17-100 appeared on the FCC's site, so whoever was telling him stuff was obviously far out of the loop or simply making things up) but in combination with Stuart also saying something I think he's likely got good sources. We know Stuart has good sources within Directv, so his implication that OTA support is coming is worth a lot, IMHO.
> 
> Even when Directv had the AM21 most CSRs and installers had no idea what it is, so a new OTA dongle isn't going to fare any better in that respect. It is almost certainly going to be something you'll need to procure and install yourself, like the AM21 was, and if you have problems and call Directv the CSR will have no clue what you're talking about


Exactly. The other site posted a lot of false info regarding the HS17 and how it was going to be for bars only, etc. So I wouldn't put much weight into a new OTA module. Very small market. Like you said, unless it can do ATSC 3.0 and record 4K... Then again, now that they are finally starting to lose subs, they may have changed their tune. When AT&T first took over, they were getting super stingy with discounts and it was hard to get them, after they started losing subs, they started handing them out like candy again.

Then again #2, they still haven't fixed the HR24 issue where it takes 15 seconds to draw a screen, so maybe they aren't too worried .


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> Oh well ...
> 
> I hope there's something else coming for OTA since
> 
> ...


WOW... That's dumb if its true.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> WOW... That's dumb if its true.


Considering the source I have a high level of confidence in the accuracy of the statement. In all honesty the OTA capabilities are just a carryover from when DirecTV did not offer locals and needed something to compete with cable. Only with the advent of thousands of sub channels did it become an issue again. Even with that I would be surprised if even 1% of DirecTV customers care about OTA


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

You mean the same source that is parroting the claim of DirecTV going all HD in 2019 (instead of the appropriate term all MPEG4 since there will still be SD only channels come 2019), and using the opportunity to tell people to "act now" and give them money they don't need to since DirecTV will have to give free like for like swaps when the time comes like they did during the MPG shutdown. Or their scathing review of DirecTV Now based on a completely false assumption about VOD after reading way too much into a press release that also mentioned the unrelated Fullscreen that AT&T was launching at the same time? Or their claim that there is no difference between the RC64, RC65, and RC66 and refusing to list them seperately even though a quick glance at the manual shows a lot more codes with each newer model that don't work at all on older models.

Notice how they also take the opportunity to sell you one of their OTA DVRs, even though that may become a glorified paperweight if ATSC 3.0 takes off a few years from now, so you would have two devices that no longer get all of your channels...

Their claim about channel changes being a problem is bogus. The OTA database is automated from TMS. When TMS/Gracenote/Nielsen make a change to a station with a TMSID under 65535, it gets reflected in the OTA database, including changes to RF numbers. And channels are not waiting to 2019 to change, those that entered sharing agreements may change their number as soon as later this year, which will be reflected in the data.
Not to mention that's not the only way OTA matching is done anyway, it can also match on major and minor number, which is how it handles things like translators, as well as how we can do the trick of using other markets to get missing subchannels to appear. So even if TMS doesn't update the RF number data right away, rerunning antenna setup will still pick it up on the new shared RF number.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I doubt the AM21 will stop working for hx2xs... but then, if they change their guide data a lot I guess I could see it. However, I’d think if they change their guide data a lot it will support all stations not just the number it does today.. so then, this would be backwards. Who knows...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

It sounded to me like Stuart was hinting about a new OTA module, but then he says he doesn't think they'll have anything at all and will drop support for the AM21 entirely. There's three ways that could happen: 1) remove the screen for configuring the AM21, but ones that are already connected keep working 2) remove the support for them entirely, so when you receive a software update it is as if you restarted with the AM21 disconnected and 3) don't carry the guide data for OTA channels so they "work" but you'll have to figure out what is on and when some other way.

Haven't some people been reporting that when they try to connect an AM21 to a receiver/DVR that hasn't had one before it doesn't always work, especially with HR44/HR54? Maybe they won't explicitly remove support, but will no longer consider having the AM21 not work properly or at all something their software engineers need to fix.

Starting to think about selling my AM21s before they become worthless...I guess I should pay attention to the Edge Cutter site so when the first test software comes out that drops support I can eBay them real quick


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## Fab55 (Jul 25, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> Haven't some people been reporting that when they try to connect an AM21 to a receiver/DVR that hasn't had one before it doesn't always work, especially with HR44/HR54? Maybe they won't explicitly remove support, but will no longer consider having the AM21 not work properly or at all something their software engineers need to fix.


I upgraded to 4K with an HR54 in December 2016, and haven't had any issues getting my AM21 to work (Outside of everyone else's issues). Can't speak to more recent new HR54's, but I just added a new sub channel last week no problem.

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

OTA 2-tuner ATSC dongle connects via USB 2.0 to Genie HR 44 / HR 54. Note - HS 27/ HS37 support for the OTA Dongle will be supported under the DFW project.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

west99999 said:


> OTA 2-tuner ATSC dongle connects via USB 2.0 to Genie HR 44 / HR 54. Note - HS 27/ HS37 support for the OTA Dongle will be supported under the DFW project.


Sorry if I sound like a dolt here. ...

But could you translate some of what this means? Is this from some kind of DIRECTV tech. bulletin confirming the existence a new OTA dongle under test?

And what is the "HS27" and "HS37" and the "DFW project?"

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Yeah that needs some explaining.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Just something someone sent me. It is legit. 27 and 37 will be next genie 2 models is what I gather. Don't know about DFW.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

OTA 2-tuner ATSC dongle connects to in-home antenna. AT&T will provide the Hauppague OTA Dongle and Wingard indoor antenna. A customer could also use their own indoor or outdoor antenna


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

west99999 said:


> Just something someone sent me. It is legit. 27 and 37 will be next genie 2 models is what I gather. Don't know about DFW.


So it's confirmed then, an OTA dongle does exist and will be available?

And funny the note does not mention compatibility with HS17 ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

west99999 said:


> OTA 2-tuner ATSC dongle connects to in-home antenna. AT&T will provide the Hauppague OTA Dongle and Wingard indoor antenna. A customer could also use their own indoor or outdoor antenna


Oh, sorry ...

Didn't see this before my last post ...

But what about the HS17 I wonder? ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Not sure why it wasn't mentioned but I assume it would be supported as well.


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## rakstr (Aug 23, 2007)

So is this available now? Does it get it's guide data from the internet so it's not limited to the ancient DTV database?


west99999 said:


> OTA 2-tuner ATSC dongle connects to in-home antenna. AT&T will provide the Hauppague OTA Dongle and Wingard indoor antenna. A customer could also use their own indoor or outdoor antenna


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

rakstr said:


> So is this available now? Does it get it's guide data from the internet so it's not limited to the ancient DTV database?


soon
no info yet


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Only two tuner? I wonder if they'll allow you to use more than one? Otherwise if you have a HS17/27/37 as your only receiver, you could only record two OTA channels and only two clients could watch OTA - unless it shares tuners... Anyone here have Genie & AM21 and three clients? If so are you able to watch the same OTA channel with all three simultaneously, or does trying to tune the third client to OTA give some sort of error?


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

I sure hope this pans out. My AM21 isn’t going to last forever.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Any updates on the dongle?


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## reds1963 (Aug 29, 2007)

kind of wondering the same thing


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

soon ... we will know


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

P Smith said:


> soon ... we will know


I had a tech out last Friday. I specifically mentioned the rumored dongle, but he wasn't aware of anything.

Of course, the tech had never actually seen an AM21 before, only heard about them. Couldn't believe how big it was and marveled how it inserted locals into the guide.


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## futrader (Jan 4, 2015)

Announced today that DirecTV will be launching an AndroidTV based OTT set top box. Combine that with what was said above in this thread about a 2 tuner USB OTA dongle coming out, I wonder if this will be DTV's version of SingTVs Air Player where the USB tuner will integrate OTA channels with Directv Now service on the AdnroidTV set top box. Purely speculation on my part, of course.
DirecTV to Launch Android TV-Based OTT Set-Top Box (EXCLUSIVE)


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

futrader said:


> DirecTV to Launch Android TV-Based OTT Set-Top Box (EXCLUSIVE)


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

"The manual also reveals that the set-top will shop with a voice remote with integrated touch pad, and photos show that it has Ethernet, digital audio, HDMI and USB ports, but *no antenna connectivity* - meaning that any and all programming will indeed come over the internet."


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## reds1963 (Aug 29, 2007)

or maybe usb port for some sort of dongle hook up for the ota ????
afterall the AM21 hooks using usb port , still interesting to say the least


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

msglsmo said:


> "The manual also reveals that the set-top will shop with a voice remote with integrated touch pad, and photos show that it has Ethernet, digital audio, HDMI and USB ports, but *no antenna connectivity* - meaning that any and all programming will indeed come over the internet."


Ignore that stupid Variety article, the author has zero understanding of Directv technology. The C71KW is a client, just like the all the other C4*/C5*/C6* clients, the only major difference is that it runs Android TV. That relieves Directv of having to update apps on the server since they'll all run on the client with that model. I'm guessing the HS27 will not support any apps, it will serve Directv and nothing else. If OTA connectivity is brought back, it will be brought back with dongles on the server, not the client - otherwise how could you record OTA?

There isn't any OTA connectivity on any of Directv clients, the Variety author wrongly believes it is intended as an OTT streaming box. It is not. So the lack of OTA connectivity on the C71KW is expected and not a surprise in the least.


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

slice1900 said:


> Ignore that stupid Variety article, the author has zero understanding of Directv technology. The C71KW is a client, just like the all the other C4*/C5*/C6* clients, the only major difference is that it runs Android TV. That relieves Directv of having to update apps on the server since they'll all run on the client with that model. I'm guessing the HS27 will not support any apps, it will serve Directv and nothing else. If OTA connectivity is brought back, it will be brought back with dongles on the server, not the client - otherwise how could you record OTA?
> 
> There isn't any OTA connectivity on any of Directv clients, the Variety author wrongly believes it is intended as an OTT streaming box. It is not. So the lack of OTA connectivity on the C71KW is expected and not a surprise in the least.


Do you see DirecTV moving to Android TV?

Regardless, I'm hoping the OTA dongle shows up soon!


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

The lack of a coax input snd the inclusion of an Ethernet port says it’s not meant to work with a genie 2. Streaming DVR was rumored to be coming in addition to the cloud DVR for DIRECTV now. This could easily be a client for that. I don’t see them having android tv take over just as they launch a new GUI for the hs17. But we will see.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> The lack of a coax input snd the inclusion of an Ethernet port says it's not meant to work with a genie 2. Streaming DVR was rumored to be coming in addition to the cloud DVR for DIRECTV now. This could easily be a client for that. I don't see them having android tv take over just as they launch a new GUI for the hs17. But we will see.


But this box seems to be some kind of hybrid with ethernet or WiFi to a router for OTT internet access for Google TV and a 5 GHz radio for at least and optional connection to a WVB integrated on (or external to) a future HS27 so it can function as a 4K wireless client.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> The lack of a coax input snd the inclusion of an Ethernet port says it's not meant to work with a genie 2. Streaming DVR was rumored to be coming in addition to the cloud DVR for DIRECTV now. This could easily be a client for that. I don't see them having android tv take over just as they launch a new GUI for the hs17. But we will see.


The C41W doesn't have a coax port either, and it is meant to work with a Genie. Did you miss the 'W' in its product name?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

msglsmo said:


> Do you see DirecTV moving to Android TV?
> 
> Regardless, I'm hoping the OTA dongle shows up soon!


Well this client suggests that's the direction they're going to take - it will still be Directv satellite service, but it will also have access to streaming apps via Android TV. They have probably figured out that even if they get a few big name apps like ESPN and Pandora, there will always be apps people want they can't support. Want to watch BTN Plus on your Directv box? Sorry, there is no BTN2Go app. Well, with Android TV now there is.

Android TV is free to license so it could still be a Directv branded and supported device. If they used a Roku or Apple TV for a client they wouldn't have the branding, they'd have to divide support depending on the issue, etc.

It isn't clear if you'll be able to download whatever apps you want, or if they'll limit the selection only to certain ones. i.e. if they let you use Netflix, that might hurt their PPV/VOD sales...though maybe those are dropping of their own accord, at least for those customers who have decent internet.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> The C41W doesn't have a coax port either, and it is meant to work with a Genie. Did you miss the 'W' in its product name?


Exactly.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> The C41W doesn't have a coax port either, and it is meant to work with a Genie. Did you miss the 'W' in its product name?


It also doesn't have an Ethernet connection, so this is clearly a departure of things before it.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> It also doesn't have an Ethernet connection, so this is clearly a departure of things before it.


Probably they don't want your Android TV traffic on Directv's private wireless going through the server. Who knows what people might download that kills its performance and causes unnecessary service calls to Directv? Wouldn't be surprised if the instructions will say that for Android TV apps it has to go through the ethernet, or at least they'll strongly recommend that.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Which would mean multiple Ethernet connections for a dtv System because you’d need one at every tv that has one of these boxes. That’s just nuts. Heck they would need to nic cards in some of them too if they want to run Ethernet and deca as well, otherwise you’d have all kinds of it issues.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Based on all I've read so far, here's my guess with regard to the C71KW-400, the upcoming Android TV box described in the Variety article. It will be the standard STB in the next (i.e. post-Genie) generation of DirecTV hardware, featuring a new UI (their customized version of Android TV, with DirecTV controlling the start-up home screen) and a new remote control. AT&T will keep the DirecTV branding but will allow you to get service either via satellite or via internet (regardless of whether or not AT&T is your broadband provider). They may announce new channel packages and pricing when this launches, grandfathering existing satellite customers on their current packages.

For new installs that need satellite access, they'll get the HS27 home server (successor to the current HS17), which will contain the satellite tuners and hard drive for local DVR functionality. It will stream live and recorded TV via IP (wifi or ethernet) to the C71KW-400 clients throughout the home. If the user has home internet access, he can stream content in OTT apps (e.g. Netflix, YouTube, etc.) directly to the client. Perhaps the HS27 will also make use of an available internet connection to insert targeted "programmatic" ads (like Hulu has), which are a key part of AT&T's future TV business model.

Many (most?) new users, however, will not need or want satellite access, so they will get DirecTV service via broadband. In this configuration, each TV will have a C71KW-400 STB but there won't be any kind of local home server such as the HS27. Rather, the STB will get live and recorded (cloud DVR) TV directly from AT&T's servers out on the web through a wifi or ethernet connection to the home router. Since everything in this configuration is internet-based, support for programmatic ads would be simple.

The C71KW-400 will offer a nearly identical UI regardless of whether service is delivered via satellite or broadband. Installation and ongoing costs will likely be higher for satellite, though, since it involves additional hardware and a more complicated set-up.

DirecTV Now will continue to exist as a simpler, lower-cost "bring your own box" service. DirecTV will continue on as a somewhat more expensive, fuller-featured service (although I expect to see it also embrace skinner bundles). AT&T's next-gen video platform will power both services behind the scenes.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

The contractual requirements for streaming are quite different from those for traditional delivery - that's why Directv is having to separately renegotiate for locals to get them on Directv Now and less than half the DMAs have their locals available and some DMAs have some missing locals. There are also many channels that either won't allow streaming at all or may want to charge more than Directv is willing to pay to permit streaming - especially RSNs and other products like NFLST.

So there isn't any way Directv can offer service equivalent to their satellite product via streaming. They can offer what they offer with Directv Now, but they already offer that: its called Directv Now. I suppose they could offer a more expensive version of Directv Now that comes with Directv hardware instead of BYO hardware, and have someone come install it all? If you don't care about what's missing on the streaming product, you might not care - especially if you live somewhere you can't have a dish.

The only way they could offer "streaming" Directv that includes everything or close to everything you get with the satellite product is in a private network type situation - i.e. if you have AT&T as your internet provider. A product that replaces Uverse TV, in other words.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> The contractual requirements for streaming are quite different from those for traditional delivery - that's why Directv is having to separately renegotiate for locals to get them on Directv Now and less than half the DMAs have their locals available and some DMAs have some missing locals. There are also many channels that either won't allow streaming at all or may want to charge more than Directv is willing to pay to permit streaming - especially RSNs and other products like NFLST.
> 
> So there isn't any way Directv can offer service equivalent to their satellite product via streaming. They can offer what they offer with Directv Now, but they already offer that: its called Directv Now. I suppose they could offer a more expensive version of Directv Now that comes with Directv hardware instead of BYO hardware, and have someone come install it all? If you don't care about what's missing on the streaming product, you might not care - especially if you live somewhere you can't have a dish.
> 
> The only way they could offer "streaming" Directv that includes everything or close to everything you get with the satellite product is in a private network type situation - i.e. if you have AT&T as your internet provider. A product that replaces Uverse TV, in other words.


I'm sure AT&T has been planning this awhile and working on the contracts. It's all negotiable. As you realized at the end of your post, they've already done something similar with Uverse TV. Whether the stream is carried completely on AT&T's network (in the case of someone who has AT&T home broadband) or over the open internet in parts (in the case of someone who doesn't) should make no difference to the channel providers if everything is transmitted as encrypted IP streams that can only be decrypted and played back on AT&T-owned boxes physically located at the user's home address. (Targeting only one hardware STB platform for streaming, BTW, should make performance and support somewhat better than is the case with DirecTV Now, even if the customer doesn't have AT&T home internet.) Unlike DirecTV Now, DirecTV could continue to charge for service based on the number of TVs (STBs) served and may still have an initial contract period for new customers. So it wouldn't be a very different business proposition for networks than than the current satellite-based service. While it will use internet delivery, it shouldn't be confused with a mobile app-based service like DirecTV Now, which has different pricing and rules for the consumer than traditional DirecTV. I see no reason why AT&T should have any more difficulty signing up networks than, say, Verizon with the IPTV version of FiOS TV they're currently beta testing.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> Whether the stream is carried completely on AT&T's network (in the case of someone who has AT&T home broadband) or over the open internet in parts (in the case of someone who doesn't) should make no difference to the channel providers if everything is transmitted as encrypted IP streams that can only be decrypted and played back on AT&T-owned boxes physically located at the user's home address.


Sorry, but it makes a HUGE difference. I'm not sure why, but that's the reason Directv has had to negotiate separately for Directv Now, and couldn't just immediately put everything they had on satellite on that service.

The reason Uverse TV isn't considered to be in the same category contract-wise as Directv Now is because it isn't traveling over the public internet, but only over the provider's private network.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> The only way they could offer "streaming" Directv that includes everything or close to everything you get with the satellite product is in a private network type situation - i.e. if you have AT&T as your internet provider. A product that replaces Uverse TV, in other words.


Even that would be under the contractual obligations that you mentioned. Otherwise AT&T UVERSE would have immediately adopted DIRECTV's lineup and lowered their payments to content providers to DIRECTV's payment levels. DIRECTV contracts cover only the distribution methods approved in their contracts.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> Sorry, but it makes a HUGE difference. I'm not sure why, but that's the reason Directv has had to negotiate separately for Directv Now, and couldn't just immediately put everything they had on satellite on that service.
> 
> The reason Uverse TV isn't considered to be in the same category contract-wise as Directv Now is because it isn't traveling over the public internet, but only over the provider's private network.


Part of the reason that AT&T had to negotiate separately for DirecTV Now (and DISH for Sling TV) is that they're different services, with different channel packages, different pricing, different customer relationship model (billing, contracts, etc.) and different usage rights. DirecTV Now is not, and was never planned to be, the same thing as DirecTV, just delivered via the internet instead of satellite. DirecTV Now vs. DirecTV is somewhat analogous to lower cost prepaid vs. traditional postpaid mobile phone service.

You do realize that AT&T, as soon as they acquired DirecTV, renegotiated their carriage contract with networks so that they could offer OTT streaming of live, on-demand and recorded TV to phones and computers via their mobile app and website, yes? So we're merely talking about extending that capability from an app for e.g. Android phones to an Android TV set-top box connected to a TV. Maybe they included that in those same renegotiations. The situation isn't really that different from the way that Comcast is bringing their Xfinity Stream app over from mobile devices now to Roku STBs, allowing customers full access to their cable TV service (live, on-demand, cloud DVR) as streaming IPTV rather than QAM-based TV.

Here's the user manual for DirecTV's forthcoming C71 Android TV-based STB. Note that it's never branded as "DirecTV Now" but as the "AT&T/DIRECTV Wireless 4K OTT Client".
ATTC71KW Wireless STB User Manual Wistron NeWeb Corporation

Clearly, the version of the user manual that AT&T has submitted to the FCC isn't complete yet but it looks to me like it will require internet access to operate and is intended to deliver DirecTV as an OTT service. AT&T has stated that they want a majority of their video customers to access service via OTT by 2020. I don't think they plan to get there simply by shooing folks away from full-service DirecTV to the more down-market DirecTV Now service. They'll get there both by growing DirecTV Now but also by transitioning their premium DirecTV customer base from satellite to OTT too.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Part of the reason that AT&T had to negotiate separately for DirecTV Now (and DISH for Sling TV) is that they're different services, with different channel packages, different pricing, different customer relationship model (billing, contracts, etc.) and different usage rights. DirecTV Now is not, and was never planned to be, the same thing as DirecTV, just delivered via the internet instead of satellite. DirecTV Now vs. DirecTV is somewhat analogous to lower cost prepaid vs. traditional postpaid mobile phone service.
> 
> You do realize that AT&T, as soon as they acquired DirecTV, renegotiated their carriage contract with networks so that they could offer OTT streaming of live, on-demand and recorded TV to phones and computers via their mobile app and website, yes? So we're merely talking about extending that capability from an app for e.g. Android phones to an Android TV set-top box connected to a TV. Maybe they included that in those same renegotiations. The situation isn't really that different from the way that Comcast is bringing their Xfinity Stream app over from mobile devices now to Roku STBs, allowing customers full access to their cable TV service (live, on-demand, cloud DVR) as streaming IPTV rather than QAM-based TV.
> 
> ...


I have never once seen anyone state that they want the majority of their customers to be over the top by 2020. I've seen some bad misinterpretations of statements by so called journalists claim that though, which is really worthless...

And DIRECTV now was in the works and the contracts where being negotiated for it as they came up way before att took over... that had been in the planning for a long time. Att did not reopen all the contracts the day they took over.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

All these claims that Directv wants to convert their customers to streaming are ridiculous. There is ZERO reason they would want to do that - it won't save them any money because satellite costs them very little to deliver. In fact, every Directv satellite customer who switches to streaming costs them money, because their current pricing for Directv Now is quite a bit lower than Directv satellite.

So why would they want to hurry this transition? They'll let it happen at its own pace, but they sure as hell won't do anything to encourage it.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

I thought this was the OTA dongle thread? 

Speaking of that, any updates on if/when it will be available?


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## jhs33 (Dec 24, 2006)

TheRatPatrol said:


> I thought this was the OTA dongle thread?
> 
> Speaking of that, any updates on if/when it will be available?


I thought so to.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

TheRatPatrol said:


> I thought this was the OTA dongle thread?  ...


Not specifically it wasn't, at least initially. ... 

But I guess it pretty much became that thread after west99999 posted that tech. memo about it back in post #97 on Aug. 30th.



> ... Speaking of that, any updates on if/when it will be available?


Nope, none that I'm aware of since west's memo over two months ago now mentioning its existence. Which is usually the main reason for thread drift.

When there's nothing to report ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Let me just quote some key stories.

AT&T (NYSE: T) reportedly has plans to make DirecTV Now its primary video platform by 2020, but researchers wonder whether consumers will allow such a rapid shift toward the future of TV.
Just how quickly the customer base will shift toward OTT services such as DirecTV Now - and just how aggressively AT&T will push for the move - has remained a mystery.
But citing people familiar with the plans, Bloomberg reported last month that the company wants to phase out satellite dishes and set-top boxes in favor of streaming TV within three to five years.
"I don't think I'm surprised by that timeline," said Brett Sappington, an OTT analyst at Park Services. "I think they'd be delighted for that network to be put to work like that for them." 
https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/blog/techflash/2016/10/can-at-t-really-drop-the-dish-by-2020.html​
***
AT&T plans to launch a cable TV-like service for delivery over-the-top over its own or a competitor's broadband network in 2018, said AT&T CEO Randall Stephenson at an investor conference today. The AT&T OTT video offering will be in beta trials before year-end and is laying the groundwork for 'software-based' TV delivery that will ultimately replace satellite delivery of video directly to the home, Stephenson said. 
"We're taking DirecTV Now and leveraging it into a scaleable platform that goes into the home as a primary service," said Stephenson.
AT&T CEO: Bye-Bye DirecTV, Hello AT&T OTT Video - Telecompetitor​
***
AT&T CEO Randall Stephens & interviewer Brett Feldman at Goldman Sachs conference in Sept. 2017
(https://seekingalpha.com/article/41...chs-communacopia-conference-transcript?page=7):

RS: "We will be ambivalent as to whose broadband, the television service reverses [ph], and so, a software-based platform, we are delivering that will not require a satellite dish on the roof, and a very thin client in the home, rather than a big set-top-box ... a very thin client, and all the DVR and all the replay capabilities will be largely cloud-based. And so, we are developing this very, very quickly, taking DIRECTV Now and leveraging it into a scalable platform that goes into the home as the primary service. We are launching a beta of this in the fourth quarter of this year. And you will see us begin to roll the service out as we get into 2018. And we are actually really excited about this, because you suddenly take the customer acquisition costs of somebody having traditional video service in their home, you take that installation cost down dramatically, and again, you can begin to work the yields for the customer without destroying margins."

BF: "You see that product as being able to support if the consumer wanted it what is essentially similar to what the full featured satellite product has today including some of the premium concept like SUNDAY TICKET?"

RS: "Oh, yes, ultimately without a doubt. In fact, even including 4K ultra high definition TV is on the roadmap for doing this. And so, yes, it will be a full spectrum of services that we think we can ultimately provision on this platform."​
One of the reasons why AT&T wants to move TV viewing over to an IP/software-based platform (as opposed to the current DBS platform) is that it allows for targeted advertising, which is more lucrative. See here, from the same interview at that conference:

RS: "Within AT&T and DIRECTV, we have an inventory of advertising that we sell every year, about 200 billion impressions that we sell every year. Time Warner has 750 billion impressions that they sell every year predominantly through Turner networks. So, you put the two together, it's about 1 trillion impressions per year that will be taken to market with the advertising community. In AT&T, the portion that we have the 200 billion impressions that we take to market, we use a lot of this addressable capability. We are very early on in our technology development. But early on, we are selling that addressable advertising within AT&T at a factor of two to three times what a company like Time Warner is able to get. So, using this data, can Time Warner begin to get yields that begin to look like what we are seeing in DIRECTV and in AT&T? That's a sizeable number. And it's a very, very sizeable opportunity. And so, this is something we're going after very aggressively. You've probably seen that we announced we have done some hiring. We went out and hired a gentleman named Brian Lesser right here in New York. He is in GroupM. He is going to be coming over to head this. He is probably one of the best ad tech executives I know. He has stood up technology like this within WPP. He has a business model up and running. He will come over and head this up for AT&T. And we're pretty excited about the opportunity."

"Now -- so, it's obvious that you can accrue value to a media company by taking advantage of this data that exists. How you can you accrue value back into the communication company? And interestingly, it's the same model if you can generate advertising revenues with these kinds of yields in your communication company, that's a very powerful weapon in the marketplace for competing for consumers. If you can get an extra $10 per subscriber of advertising revenues through this model, that's $10 of revenue you can use in the marketplace to discount to the consumer to take share and drive down churn. And those of you in this room who know the communication industry, a fraction of a percentage of improvement in churn and market share has a big multiplier in these businesses. And so, you put it all together, we are creating a media and communications telecom and technology company that we think is going to be really, really unique. And I think this is a trend in terms of industry that you are going to see more of."​


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

They can do targeted advertising right now by downloading any ad’s to the Genie/DVR and play the ad from there. They do it now for local ads.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

RAD said:


> They can do targeted advertising right now by downloading any ad's to the Genie/DVR and play the ad from there. They do it now for local ads.


Interesting. Are those targeted ads sent to the Genie via internet or satellite? I'd guess the former. I doubt satellite (without an assist from an internet connection to the STB) would ever be able to integrate targeted ads into live TV, which OTT can do (or will eventually).

At any rate, there are certainly other reasons cited in the articles above for AT&T to prefer OTT delivery as opposed to DBS for their TV customers. Acquisition cost is probably the main one. Costs much less to send someone a low-cost thin client STB that they connect themselves as opposed to rolling out a truck with an installer who spends hours mounting a dish, running wiring, and installing an expensive fat client STB with a hard drive that will eventually fail. Beyond that, there's the incremental cost of running separate systems for DBS vs. the new software-based OTT system. AT&T has clearly stated that that system is the future of their consumer video services.

Perhaps they have no huge incentive to move _existing_ DBS subs over to the new OTT platform but I think you'll definitely see AT&T deprecate their marketing efforts for DBS once they get a premium-quality OTT service to market (with its own dedicated STB, full range of channel packages with all locals and regional sports networks, NFL Sunday Ticket, traditional billing and customer support, etc.) It will cost them less to acquire those subs. DBS will be around for many more years, of course, thanks to rural customers and non-AT&T internet customers who are afraid of exceeding data caps. But I can imagine, at some point in the future, AT&T letting OTT TV subs use AT&T 4G and/or 5G bandwidth for streaming AT&T video to their TV STBs. (They could do this with a small cellular antenna that connects to the STB via wi-fi direct, Bluetooth or USB.) They're already experimenting with this concept for DirecTV Now with their new Moto Mod.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Interesting. Are those targeted ads sent to the Genie via internet or satellite? I'd guess the former. I doubt satellite (without an assist from an internet connection to the STB) would ever be able to integrate targeted ads into live TV, which OTT can do (or will eventually).
> 
> At any rate, there are certainly other reasons cited in the articles above for AT&T to prefer OTT delivery as opposed to DBS for their TV customers. Acquisition cost is probably the main one. Costs much less to send someone a low-cost thin client STB that they connect themselves as opposed to rolling out a truck with an installer who spends hours mounting a dish, running wiring, and installing an expensive fat client STB with a hard drive that will eventually fail. Beyond that, there's the incremental cost of running separate systems for DBS vs. the new software-based OTT system. AT&T has clearly stated that that system is the future of their consumer video services.
> 
> Perhaps they have no huge incentive to move _existing_ DBS subs over to the new OTT platform but I think you'll definitely see AT&T deprecate their marketing efforts for DBS once they get a premium-quality OTT service to market (with its own dedicated STB, full range of channel packages with all locals and regional sports networks, NFL Sunday Ticket, traditional billing and customer support, etc.) It will cost them less to acquire those subs. DBS will be around for many more years, of course, thanks to rural customers and non-AT&T internet customers who are afraid of exceeding data caps. But I can imagine, at some point in the future, AT&T letting OTT TV subs use AT&T 4G and/or 5G bandwidth for streaming AT&T video to their TV STBs. (They could do this with a small cellular antenna that connects to the STB via wi-fi direct, Bluetooth or USB.) They're already experimenting with this concept for DirecTV Now with their new Moto Mod.


Actually you would be wrong on that. They are all via satellite and Have been since they started several years ago. Also they really push the targeted advertising for political ads in all markets now as well.

They have quite a few transponders that just push ads all day. And your DVRs grab them whenever they can.

That's how it works for recorded programs and can probably for live too. Because the commercials are already on your box.

And there is a huge difference on spending a ton of marketing money on streaming vs getting rid of satellite. Satellite reaches millions they could never get DIRECTV now to.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> AT&T (NYSE: T) reportedly has plans to make DirecTV Now its primary video platform by 2020, but researchers wonder whether consumers will allow such a rapid shift toward the future of TV.


That's just a rumor created by some random analyst who thinks "satellite is yesterday, streaming is today, this is what they should do" so they claim it as fact. Kind of like the rumors about Apple buying Netflix a few years ago which were basically just M&A analysts thinking about the huge fees they could charge for a deal like that trying to wish it into existence, even though it would make zero sense for Apple to buy such an overvalued asset.

Now maybe this was based on something AT&T's CEO said that was misinterpreted, like when he said he thought that in a few years the majority of new customer adds would be on Directv Now instead of satellite. That wouldn't be surprising, but even if that did happen it would take 5-10 years longer before Directv Now had more total customers than satellite due to the latter's huge installed base.

The analysts don't like satellite because they see capital spending on satellites and set top boxes and think "man if only they didn't have those costs all that money could be profit" but they ignore that 1) the actual cost to Directv to maintain and replace as necessary their satellite fleet is less than $1 per customer per month. If streaming has any cost advantage at all, it is mere pennies - and may be more expensive to deliver today. 2) Directv's $7/month fees pay for the cost of the hardware in no time at all, so that over the five years expected life of a set top they make tons of money leasing it. That's probably where they make most of their money, in fact.

Directv Now is less expensive for consumers than Directv satellite, but doesn't cost Directv less to deliver, which means it is less profitable for Directv. So why would they want to encourage people to go with Directv Now? They want people to choose satellite, but they know they need to have Directv Now for the "cord cutters" (in quotes because getting traditional packages via streaming isn't really cutting the cord it is just getting your TV delivered in a different way) so they can serve all customers. The goal can't be to try to push customers on a certain delivery method, they would like to deliver by multiple methods and let the customers choose how they want it.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> That's just a rumor created by some random analyst who thinks "satellite is yesterday, streaming is today, this is what they should do" so they claim it as fact. Kind of like the rumors about Apple buying Netflix a few years ago which were basically just M&A analysts thinking about the huge fees they could charge for a deal like that trying to wish it into existence, even though it would make zero sense for Apple to buy such an overvalued asset.
> 
> Now maybe this was based on something AT&T's CEO said that was misinterpreted, like when he said he thought that in a few years the majority of new customer adds would be on Directv Now instead of satellite. That wouldn't be surprising, but even if that did happen it would take 5-10 years longer before Directv Now had more total customers than satellite due to the latter's huge installed base.
> 
> ...


Did you even read the stuff I posted above? Go back and read. Even better, click through the links and read the full articles. (The transcript of Stephenson's conference remarks on SeekingAlpha.com does require a free account, though.) AT&T's CEO makes it clear that their new OTT streaming platform (which is built on their Quickplay acquistion) will become their primary video delivery platform. Customer acquisition and CPE will be FAR lower with it than with satellite. This new platform is being first deployed to support DirecTV Now (then for the DirecTV satellite companion mobile app, and I'm sure, for the online aspects of DBS service, such as On Demand and 72 Hr Start Over) but it will be leveraged, as he says, to become a primary home TV service, offering the full scope of channels and features available on DirecTV satellite, including UHD HDR, pay-per-view and Sunday Ticket. Perhaps this next premium iteration of OTT service (which will likely include an AT&T-provided thin-client STB and remote) may not be branded as "DirecTV Now" but as something else, maybe simply "DirecTV". When it debuts (in early 2018?), it may not offer every single channel currently available through their satellite service but, as the CEO himself states, it eventually will. They're working very, very quickly to get there. Meanwhile, they're intentionally working to blur the lines, from the consumer's perspective, of DBS vs. OTT service, as the next generation of DBS STBs will feature basically the same UI as their OTT apps/STBs. (Looks pretty nice from what I've seen, certainly more modern than the existing Genie UI which has been around quite awhile now.)

I've seen no numbers about the operational costs of DirecTV satellite versus OTT live streaming and, unless you can link to some, I see no reason to believe that DBS costs less on an ongoing basis. (Remember to factor in the capital costs of the satellites themselves. Also keep in mind that, outside of DirecTV DBS, AT&T is pretty much completely an internet/networking company.) But I do know that there are operational efficiencies to be had by running just one unified platform rather than multiple platforms, especially when that unified platform is virtualized and software-based, making it very flexible and easy to upgrade. And it looks like 9 of the 13 satellites currently powering DirecTV DBS service are over a decade old now. The oldest one in operation is 16 years old. AT&T likely hopes to replace as few of those aging satellites as possible over the next decade as they shift their customer base away from DBS to OTT. Why spend a ton of capital on hardware to support a delivery method which AT&T has clearly indicated is NOT the future for them?

DirecTV DBS is not going away any time soon. Even if the majority of AT&T TV subs are non-DBS by the end of 2020, as per AT&T projections that sources told Bloomberg, that still leaves many millions of customers getting their TV through a dish on their roof (increasingly in rural areas). And that tipping point may well not happen until after 2020. But regardless, DBS is in long-term decline. At some point next decade (if not sooner), we'll likely see the dwindling DBS services of AT&T and DISH get unified under one company, as we saw with Sirius and XM satellite radio.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> And it looks like 9 of the 13 satellites currently powering DirecTV DBS service are over a decade old now. The oldest one in operation is 16 years old. AT&T likely hopes to replace as few of those aging satellites as possible over the next decade as they shift their customer base away from DBS to OTT. Why spend a ton of capital on hardware to support a delivery method which AT&T has clearly indicated is NOT the future for them?


After 2019, the only satellites Directv needs are D11 & D14 at 99, D12 & D15 at 103, and the upcoming D16 at 101 (or perhaps D15 moves to 101 and D16 goes to 103) Some of the older ones (D8 & D9S at 101, D10 at 103) have many years left in them (D8 has fuel life until 2034, not sure about the other two) and can serve as spares in case of an unexpected catastrophic failure. A satellite of the type Directv launches costs $300-$400 million to build and launch, if you assume a 15-20 year lifetime that amortizes to about $2 million a month. Directv has over 20 million subscribers, so the cost of one satellite over its lifetime is less than a dime a month per subscriber. Meaning the cost to maintain and replace the fleet as needed is around 50 cents a month per subscriber. Even if half the satellite customers went to streaming that's still only a buck a month to maintain/replace the satellites.

Obviously the broadcast centers and infrastructure to deliver the locals aren't free, but they would need all that even if they were streaming only - everything except the dishes that uplink to the satellites which are a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost for all those facilities.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> Did you even read the stuff I posted above? Go back and read. Even better, click through the links and read the full articles. (The transcript of Stephenson's conference remarks on SeekingAlpha.com does require a free account, though.) AT&T's CEO makes it clear that their new OTT streaming platform (which is built on their Quickplay acquistion) will become their primary video delivery platform. Customer acquisition and CPE will be FAR lower with it than with satellite. This new platform is being first deployed to support DirecTV Now (then for the DirecTV satellite companion mobile app, and I'm sure, for the online aspects of DBS service, such as On Demand and 72 Hr Start Over) but it will be leveraged, as he says, to become a primary home TV service, offering the full scope of channels and features available on DirecTV satellite, including UHD HDR, pay-per-view and Sunday Ticket. Perhaps this next premium iteration of OTT service (which will likely include an AT&T-provided thin-client STB and remote) may not be branded as "DirecTV Now" but as something else, maybe simply "DirecTV". When it debuts (in early 2018?), it may not offer every single channel currently available through their satellite service but, as the CEO himself states, it eventually will. They're working very, very quickly to get there. Meanwhile, they're intentionally working to blur the lines, from the consumer's perspective, of DBS vs. OTT service, as the next generation of DBS STBs will feature basically the same UI as their OTT apps/STBs. (Looks pretty nice from what I've seen, certainly more modern than the existing Genie UI which has been around quite awhile now.)
> 
> I've seen no numbers about the operational costs of DirecTV satellite versus OTT live streaming and, unless you can link to some, I see no reason to believe that DBS costs less on an ongoing basis. (Remember to factor in the capital costs of the satellites themselves. Also keep in mind that, outside of DirecTV DBS, AT&T is pretty much completely an internet/networking company.) But I do know that there are operational efficiencies to be had by running just one unified platform rather than multiple platforms, especially when that unified platform is virtualized and software-based, making it very flexible and easy to upgrade. And it looks like 9 of the 13 satellites currently powering DirecTV DBS service are over a decade old now. The oldest one in operation is 16 years old. AT&T likely hopes to replace as few of those aging satellites as possible over the next decade as they shift their customer base away from DBS to OTT. Why spend a ton of capital on hardware to support a delivery method which AT&T has clearly indicated is NOT the future for them?
> 
> DirecTV DBS is not going away any time soon. Even if the majority of AT&T TV subs are non-DBS by the end of 2020, as per AT&T projections that sources told Bloomberg, that still leaves many millions of customers getting their TV through a dish on their roof (increasingly in rural areas). And that tipping point may well not happen until after 2020. But regardless, DBS is in long-term decline. At some point next decade (if not sooner), we'll likely see the dwindling DBS services of AT&T and DISH get unified under one company, as we saw with Sirius and XM satellite radio.


I think people way underestimate how much it costs these companies in their end for streaming and also don't realize the major amount of costs for these streaming services are paid for by the everywhere platforms, which are paid for by the satellite and cable customers right now. I can easily see the costs of streaming being much higher, not less, than satellite delivery at this point and into the future. Especially as they start splitting the costs evenly with streaming and satellite for all the backend.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

inkahauts said:


> And DIRECTV now was in the works and the contracts where being negotiated for it as they came up way before att took over... that had been in the planning for a long time. Att did not reopen all the contracts the day they took over.


AT&T CEO Stephenson: "*As soon as we closed DirecTV, we went to work getting the rights of all the content to deliver to a mobile device, it was the main benefit that came with DirecTV. And we were able to get these rights in very short order. Within a year we were standing up DirecTV Now*, this is not a $115 bundle of content, this is a $30-to-$60 bundle of content. Here is a much lower-priced bundle of content that is well integrated with our wireless service, it's created a very unique and I think compelling value proposition in the market."

source: AT&T Planning New 'Wireless-Centric' TV Service for 2018


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

inkahauts said:


> I think people way underestimate how much it costs these companies in their end for streaming and also don't realize the major amount of costs for these streaming services are paid for by *the everywhere platforms, which are paid for by the satellite and cable customers right now*. I can easily see the costs of streaming being much higher, not less, than satellite delivery at this point and into the future. Especially as they start splitting the costs evenly with streaming and satellite for all the backend.


Nope. AT&T runs their own "everywhere" platform that powers the DirecTV mobile app, allowing satellite subscribers to watch live, on-demand and recorded TV OTT when away from home. Offering that kind of OTT everywhere platform is now table stakes for a leading TV provider. Comcast offers it. Verizon FiOS offers it. You have to provide that.

So if you have to have an OTT platform, why not leverage it to power as much of your product line as possible, creating efficiencies and reaching new groups of consumers along the way?

Internet is eating TV. The trend is irresistible.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Yeah. Att never had it but DIRECTV already had lots of it. You missed some signs of that years ago I guess in past press releases. DIRECTV made them have access because they owned DIRECTV. And they have always said DIRECTV was just plain better at contracts. And again DIRECTV now was started before att took over. But of course he wants credit. That’s how ceos work. 

Again it’s also cheaper than if they had to build the streaming platform from scratch. DIRECTV had already sunk the money into the system. 

Did you know DIRECTV had before att one of the largest fiber networks spread around the entire USA? That’s expensive to build! And it’s a backbone for all this...


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Its almost the new year, any updates on the OTA dongle?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Haven't heard anything, but there was a bit of good news I suppose on the "is this just a rumor or will it really happen" front - the manual on the FCC site for the VRC81 remote which comes with the C71KW client mentions "Directv's Android DFW media platform". In my mind at least that lends a lot of credence to what west99999 posted a while back. So I feel a lot more confident that it is coming, but can't even make a guess as to when.



west99999 said:


> OTA 2-tuner ATSC dongle connects via USB 2.0 to Genie HR 44 / HR 54. Note - HS 27/ HS37 support for the OTA Dongle will be supported under the DFW project.


5601 AT&T; VRC81 DFW Remote 2016 User Manual Universal Electronics Inc


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

So any updates on the OTA USB dongle?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

TheRatPatrol said:


> So any updates on the OTA USB dongle?


I'm sure someone will post if there are any sightings. People on the CE site reported there was some wording changed in the OTA setup screen with the latest firmware. Seems to me that's something they wouldn't bother with if there wasn't something coming - why change anything if the obsolete AM21 is all there ever will be? So its possible the OTA dongle has begun or will soon begin testing, but there's no way to know for sure unless someone spills the beans.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> I'm sure someone will post if there are any sightings. People on the CE site reported there was some wording changed in the OTA setup screen with the latest firmware. Seems to me that's something they wouldn't bother with if there wasn't something coming - why change anything if the obsolete AM21 is all there ever will be? So its possible the OTA dongle has begun or will soon begin testing, but there's no way to know for sure unless someone spills the beans.


Any knowledge or speculation as to whether the upcoming USB OTA dongle will work with existing STBs or only with next-gen DTV hardware, such as the HS-27 and/or C71?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> Any knowledge or speculation as to whether the upcoming USB OTA dongle will work with existing STBs or only with next-gen DTV hardware, such as the HS-27 and/or C71?


The one little 'official' blurb we have was only a couple sentences, not enough to know for sure either way. I suppose the fact the wording for OTA setup was changed on the new GUI points to the possibility it will be supported on everything that supports the new GUI. USB drivers aren't specific to hardware so supporting it on everything running the new GUI is about the same amount of work as supporting it just on the HS27. If it is limited to just the HS27 or just the HS17/HS27 that's a business decision just like the "only clients if you have an HS17" business decision.

I wouldn't hold out any hope for it on the H2x/HR2x/HR34. I think the obsolete receivers/DVRs will be left with the obsolete AM21. The good news is since they are highly unlikely to make any significant changes to their firmware any longer they have no reason to remove/break support for the AM21.


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## coconut13 (Apr 14, 2013)

I just hope they go with an OTA choice. Be it with the HR44/54 and the HS17 and newer. Or if it's just for the HS17 and beyond, that would be okay, too. I hope they do it right, where you can get ALL the channels your OTA antenna receives in your DMA, and not the limited channels that the current AM21 database holds. I really believe that since a very small percentage of customers make use of this alternative is why it will be a surprise if D* actually makes the OTA option possible. Although, their are more "cord cutters" every day, and being able to implement the OTA channels into your DVR would help D* reduce the number of cord cutters.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

coconut13 said:


> that the current AM21 database holds.


Actually, the database is a product of combining APG records from sat 101Wstream [dynamic part] and AM21's FW RF signals list [fixed part].


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Actually, the database is a product of combining APG records from sat 101Wstream [dynamic part] and AM21's FW RF signals list [fixed part].


But however the DB is formulated, the point is that its way out of date due to its severe design limitations.

For instance, in just one of many examples, the Quest TV network just launched in the LA market today on local KFTR 46-5.

However the AM21 DB stopped updating at only 46-2 a long time ago ....

My OTA TiVo has it though, along with all of KFTR's other secondary subchannels.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

my point is - by using APG part it wouldn't be hard to update NVRAM of the AM21 each week or month


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

coconut13 said:


> I just hope they go with an OTA choice. Be it with the HR44/54 and the HS17 and newer. Or if it's just for the HS17 and beyond, that would be okay, too. I hope they do it right, where you can get ALL the channels your OTA antenna receives in your DMA, and not the limited channels that the current AM21 database holds. I really believe that since a very small percentage of customers make use of this alternative is why it will be a surprise if D* actually makes the OTA option possible. Although, their are more "cord cutters" every day, and being able to implement the OTA channels into your DVR would help D* reduce the number of cord cutters.


I think it could be a really smart business decision on AT&T's part to push these OTA dongles. The amount of "retrans" money that local stations across the country are demanding from cable/satellite providers to carry them keeps going up and, of course, that gets passed along to subscribers' bills. From time to time, those carriage contracts have to be renegotiated and sometimes the carrier walks away from the table because the station is asking too much money, which means that the station gets temporarily dropped from the carrier's service during the standoff.

If AT&T could tell stations, "Hey, lots of our subs can tune you in for free anyway with an OTA antenna, with seamless integration into the regular channel guide," well, that could be a powerful weapon in negotiations. It really is funny that so many Americans are paying $7-8 per month to their cable/sat/telco pay TV provider to get channels that they could get for free (with a bit of hassle) by sticking up an OTA antenna.

I could also imagine AT&T offering a super low-cost starter package (on their DirecTV Now streaming service, and maybe via satellite too) that doesn't include any locals or any of the cable nets owned by those companies that own lots of locals (ABC/Disney, CBS, NBC/Comcast, Fox) -- since those companies wouldn't participate in a package without their main broadcast nets. Price it at $20/mo and throw in a free OTA dongle, with the DVR capability to record those OTA channels to a local hard drive, and you'd have a pretty compelling low-cost package for casual TV viewers who don't need sports nets like ESPN, FS1 and NBCSN.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> my point is - by using APG part it wouldn't be hard to update NVRAM of the AM21 each week or month


You are assuming the AM21 has NVRAM. It may not, and probably isn't even capable of firmware updates. It is a very cheap device designed over a decade ago, after all. It is a simple USB tuner that happens to come in a big box. When you connect a USB tuner to a computer, the computer tells it "tune RF channel X" and the tuner does that and spits the bits received at the computer. It is up to the computer to interpret them - i.e. pull subchannels out of the signal, interpret PSIP, etc. The AM21 is no different, and the "computer" doing all the interpreting in this case is the Directv receiver the AM21 is attached to.

The "RF signals list" isn't built into the AM21, it is delivered by satellite just like the APG guide info. It is downloaded on demand when you input a zip code into the GUI - it is a two step process with the first step downloading the list of channels for a particular ZIP (which is different for different ZIPs in the DMA in some cases, i.e. in mountainous areas where translators are used - I have verified this by plugging in some California ZIPs and seeing different results within the same DMA) and then scanning all channels and (unfortunately) matching to the list of channels it is looking for. After that's done it shows you the list of channels it found, and when you hit continue it will download initial guide data for the DMA.

There's two ways they could improve the new OTA dongle. One, allow it to keep the full results of the channel scan it does, instead of matching it to the list of channels that Directv's APG guide is limited to (i.e. the ones with TMS ID <= 65535) They already decided against this in the past when they took away scanning capability, so I wouldn't hold out high hopes.

Two, fix or work around the TMS ID limitation they have. I think it is safe to assume this limit is inherent in the APG data stream format - i.e. it is only a 16 bit field. It would require changing the APG format, which means all receivers receiving it would need firmware updates to handle it. That's clearly impossible now, there are MPEG2 only receivers that Directv can't update. However, when they drop MPEG2 SD they'd have a window of opportunity, as there would be only one receiver left that would be a problem to update - the H20. If they really wanted to change the APG format they could drop support for the H20 along with the MPEG2 only gear and deliver updates to all H2x/HR2x and newer for a "APG v2.0 format" that added a few bits to the TMS ID field (and presumably made other changes as I doubt they'd go to all this trouble for OTA alone)

Another option would be to have supplemental APG data stream(s) for TMS IDs > 65536, or have those delivered via the internet instead of by satellite. It would still require a software change to allocate more than 16 bits for TMS ID in the guide data stored in the receiver and integrate these secondary sources into the receiver's internal DB but that's a lot easier than changing the APG data stream format.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> I think it could be a really smart business decision on AT&T's part to push these OTA dongles. The amount of "retrans" money that local stations across the country are demanding from cable/satellite providers to carry them keeps going up and, of course, that gets passed along to subscribers' bills.


I agree, and Directv's CEO even mentioned this directly back in 2013, strongly hinting about improving OTA support to gain more leverage in broadcast disputes. Not sure if they never pursued it, or they did but the initiative was dropped once AT&T came calling.

Always seemed like it made a ton of sense - I am now paying $11/month for locals to Mediacom, and while they are a lot smaller and have less negotiating leverage than AT&T does, I have to believe the typical cost for locals is approaching $10 for Directv subscribers. They could introduce an OTA module, break out the locals price like they did the RSN price, and give people the option of dropping their locals to save money.

Would also help bring in more Directv Now customers who live in areas where they don't have locals or some are missing.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> You are assuming the AM21 has NVRAM. It may not, and probably isn't even capable of firmware updates.


damn ! 
perhaps someone could open a cover of it and make good pictures of common view and local shots at chips


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

P Smith said:


> damn !
> perhaps someone could open a cover of it and make good pictures of common view and local shots at chips


Do a search, I did that like 2 years ago on this site when the AM-22P was being distributed. Pics of the internal board.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

Inside the AM22P-700.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Thank you.

U6201 looks as NVRAM to me ... but by the picture it's still not clear how to read labels 
I could guess, if two small TQFP chips near tuner can are demods; big chip Spartan is main processor (custom PLC) to control tuners, demods and another chip for handle USB communication with DTV STB...

Perhaps someone could post FCC ID for AM21N and AM22T ? For checking FCC site for schematics ...


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> I think it could be a really smart business decision on AT&T's part to push these OTA dongles. The amount of "retrans" money that local stations across the country are demanding from cable/satellite providers to carry them keeps going up and, of course, that gets passed along to subscribers' bills.


Hell, a few years ago a DIRECTV executive said this before they pulled a 180 and decided OTA wasn't important.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

RAD said:


> Hell, a few years ago a DIRECTV executive said this before they pulled a 180 and decided OTA wasn't important.


Do you mean this article?

DirecTV Looks to Test Off-Air Antenna in Set-Top | Multichannel


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Do you mean this article?
> 
> DirecTV Looks to Test Off-Air Antenna in Set-Top | Multichannel


Could be but basically saying what I recall hearing floating around.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Yes, that article is from the same time frame as the Directv CEO's statements. Sounds like maybe they were considering building a tuner into the Genie. Wonder why they decided against it?

The ATSC patents were mostly expired by then so the licensing was a lot cheaper than it was back when they did they the H20 (ATSC patents were reportedly in excess of $20 per device in the mid 2000s) Those patents are all expired by now, but it won't be long before you need ATSC 3.0 and then the licensing cost becomes an issue again...


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## reds1963 (Aug 29, 2007)

still nothing new on this front ???


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

I dumped my AM21 and replaced it with a fantastic tuner and DVR, see my AM 21 tuner post, we love it and it's the best way to get networks (Free!).
Also replaced directv HBO and Showtime via Appletv, MUCH better and cheaper. Turned off directv locals which saved some bucks.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

reds1963 said:


> still nothing new on this front ???


Nah ...

Was on the phone to the Loyalty dept. on another issue about two weeks ago, and for the heck of it asked if they per chance had any info. And to his credit the rep. there really gave me a Herculean effort to ask all around and seach everywhere possible on his end for even an inkling of news about it.

But everything was still a zero on it.

However, I'm beginning to think the strange recent large increase DIRECTV made to their OTA database to only four local TV markets back in late May might have something to do with field testing for the new OTA dongle in those markets by slected subs. there under NDAs.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> However, I'm beginning to think the strange recent large increase DIRECTV made to their OTA database to only four local TV markets back in late May might have something to do with field testing for the new OTA dongle in those markets by slected subs. there under NDAs.


That's an interesting idea, and having LA (Directv's HQ) and Dallas (AT&T's HQ) among the four, would make some sense there since AT&T seems to prefer testing stuff with its employees in early stages.

Anyone know if AT&T has any significant presence in Salt Lake City or Las Vegas, the other two cities that saw a bunch of OTA channels added to the database?


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## Al K (Jan 23, 2004)

After reading the recent threads, I hooked my AM21 up again. The data base for the past many months had only three stations total for Phoenix and Tucson. All of the stations are back and the AM21 is working fine again.

On another note, Phoenix is currently a testing site for the new ATSC 3.0 transmissions. I assume there would have to be a dongle update in the future.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

For what's worth, the recent "repacking" of OTA digital channels is going very badly here in Philly. I think I've lost 25% of my OTA channels since they started repacking. For some reason, a number of UHF channels are repacking to VHF!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The repacking is intended to free up higher UHF channels ... so unless a lower UHF channel is available the VHF band channels become a natural target.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

James Long said:


> The repacking is intended to free up higher UHF channels ... so unless a lower UHF channel is available the VHF band channels become a natural target.


Wouldn't mind it so much if it was the VHF-hi band RF channels 7-13 ...

But when they move to the VHF-lo ones 2-6 I'm out of luck as my rooftop antenna can't receive that band. Nor do I have any desire to put up one with its large cumbersome elements which includes it.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> For what's worth, the recent "repacking" of OTA digital channels is going very badly here in Philly. I think I've lost 25% of my OTA channels since they started repacking. For some reason, a number of UHF channels are repacking to VHF!


Between KJWP on RF 2, WACP on RF 4 and WPVI on RF 6, Philly was already a VHF-lo market long before the repack, in addition to the VHF-hi channels 60-x WBPH on RF 9 and WHYY on RF 12. Those so-called "HDTV Antennas" that are usually optimized for UHF reception and get mediocre VHF-hi reception haven't cut it in Philly and other markets with at least one VHF-lo digital since 2009 unless you are close enough to the towers where it doesn't matter what type of antenna you use as long as there are no obstructions. While those who were relying on OTA during the analog era already had antennas that supported all bands, unless they were an "assume Fox viewing positions" family with a non-UHF antenna that only got channels 3, 6, 10, 12 and if they were lucky, 8 out of Lancaster.

As for the rest of the moves in the market that already happened:
35-x WPPT (ex-WYBE) is sharing with WBPH Bethlehem on RF 9
44-x WMCN is sharing with WHYY on RF 12
48-x WGTW is sharing with WMGM Wildwood on RF 36
52-x WNJT is sharing with WNJS on RF 22
62-x WWSI is sharing with WCAU on RF 34
65-x WUVP is sharing with WPHL on RF 17
And later this month:
51-x WTVE will share with WPHY on RF 50
39-x WLVT and 69-x WFMZ Allentown will also share with WBPH on RF 9 in the Lehigh Valley
35-x WPPT, 39-x WLVT and 60-x WBPH will also be available via WFMZ's Philly repeater on RF 45

The final post repack RF lineup for Philly will be the following:
2 - 2-x KJWP
(3 is protected for WJLP Middletown)
4 - 4-x WACP
(5 can't be used for LPTV in Philly unless they enter a co-location agreement with WPVI)
6 - 6-x WPVI
7 - WFMZ's Philly repeater (35-x WPPT/39-x WLVT/60-x WBPH/69-x WFMZ)
(8 is protected for WGAL Lancaster)
9 - WBPH's main Lehigh Valley signal (35-x WPPT/39-x WLVT/60-x WBPH/69-x WFMZ)
10 - WMGM-LD Atlantic City
(11 is protected for WBRE Wilkes-Barre and WPIX NYC)
(12 is protected for WYOU Scranton and WNET NYC)
13 - 12-x WHYY/44-x WMCN
(14-15 can only be used for extremely directional LPTV to protect Land Mobile use in the NYC DMA)
16 - 41-x WDUM-LD
17 - 17-x WPHL/65-x WUVP
(19-20 are protected for Land Mobile use in the Philly DMA)
21 - 7-x WEFG-LD
22 - 25-x WPHY-CD/51-x WTVE
23 - 23-x WNJS/52-x WNJT
24 - 24-x WPHA-CD
25 - 36-x W36DO
26 - 34-x WQAV-CD
27 - 8-x WPSJ-CD
28 - 10-x WCAU/62-x WWSI
29 - 33-x WZPA-LD or 45-x WELL-LD*
30 - 3-x KYW
31 - 29-x WTXF
33 - 57-x WPSG
34 - 61-x WPPX
35 - 28-x WFPA-CD
36 - 40-x WMGM/48-x WGTW
* WZPA-LD and WELL-LD have competing displacement applications for RF 29, so unless they modify it to be a sharing arrangement, the loser will have to find a different RF number

Outside of the Lehigh Valley signals, and WMCN from Atlantic City, no other Philly station moved to VHF as a result of the repack. Depending on where you are, you probably lost WGTW/TBN since it moved to WMGM's Atlantic City signal and probably lost the former WYBE when it moved to WBPH's siginal in the Lehigh Valley and became WPPT. But at the same time, you probably gained WWSI and WMCN who moved from Atlantic City to Philly/Roxborough signals, and starting on July 18th will gain better reception of WBPH, WPPT and WLVT if you're in range of WFMZ's Philly repeater, and WPSJ who will be moving to the main Roxborough antenna farm in summer 2019.

Subchannel wise, despite all these shares, Philly hasn't really lost anything. WFMZ moved Heroes & Icons and Retro TV to their sister station KJWP, WLVT picked up France 24 from the former WYBE, WNJS picked up NHK World in HD from the former WYBE, the new 35-x WPPT has MHz Worldview and World Channel which is new to the market, WUVP moved GetTV to WFPA's signal and dropped the WFPA simulcast when they started sharing with WPHL, while WFPA picked up the new subchannel network Quest.

Once everything is done, most of the stations will be boosting their power as well since the FCC allowed stations to increase their power to match the coverage area of the strongest station in their market. (i.e. KJWP and WACP will be tripling their power in July 2019, while WBPH and WPVI have pending applications to boost their power, and most of the UHF stations will also be boosting their power)


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

We haven't been able to get WPVI back here in western Lancaster County since they moved back to RF 6 from UHF. Hopefully, they will raise their power high enough for us to get them again.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Any updates on the OTA adapter?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

If anything new is learned I'm sure it is will appear in this thread...


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

It's called the "DirecTV Local Channel Connector"
DIRECTV Local Channel Connector


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Great, can you call DIRECTV now to order this, and idea on costs? Does it work with the HS17.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Called and the HS17 is NOT supported with this. Kind of sucks that their newest Genie doesn’t support this.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

RAD said:


> Called and the HS17 is NOT supported with this. Kind of sucks that their newest Genie doesn't support this.


Wow, yes glad to see the mysterious OTA dongle finally come to fruition, but indeed strange and very disappointing it's not compatible with the HS17...

Any mention of price?

Naturally I'm going to try and bum one for free for my HR54 by contacting Loyalty.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

KyL416 said:


> It's called the "DirecTV Local Channel Connector"
> DIRECTV Local Channel Connector


The name &#8230; who are the "creative" person ? Marketing dude for sure &#8230;
- on a screen it's named as "OTA Tuner"
- [smart] powered antenna included - that's good news
- two (!) power adapters ? common !
- how many tuners actually inside ?
- its price ?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> The name &#8230; who are the "creative" person ? Marketing dude for sure &#8230;
> - on a screen it's named as "OTA Tuner"
> - [smart] powered antenna included - that's good news
> - two (!) power adapters ? common !
> ...


Two tuners, same as the AM21 ...

Still trying to find out the price myself ...

And I guess with AT&T's now closed beta testing using only their employees. The days of those nice "First Look" new equipment reveiws posted on iamanedgecutter or something by DIRECTV subscribers on the Forum here are over.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

No idea, that's all the info that's given on the website, it's not listed for order yet. Maybe someone who gets their hand on one can see if anything shows up on Linux. It's probably a standard dual tuner chip inside, with the NTSC/QAM features disabled, rewired to use an external power source instead of USB power, and the ManufacturerId/DeviceId modified to be DirecTV specific like they did with the AM21. (Hopefully there's a CE first look down the road where they usually have a tear down where we can see the numbers on the chips)

The antenna in the drawing looks like one of those models that are useless unless you are within 25 miles of the towers with zero obstructions. It's probably worse considering that nearly every market has a VHF digital, and many major markets have at least one VHF-lo digital. So hopefully they eventually offer a cheaper version that doesn't come with the antenna for people who know that antenna will not perform well for their area or want to use a better antenna where they won't lose their signal during a gust of wind or someone turning on a vacuum cleaner or garage door opener.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Why does it have a power supply, it should use little enough power that the USB port could power it.

The blurb that started all this talked about HS27/HS37 support, maybe there is some reason it can't/won't support the HS17? Maybe the HS17's USB port has limited functionality intended only for diagnostics and can't support anything being connected to it?


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Its appears you can use your own antenna.
Say only HR44/54 support.

https://www.att.com/ecms/dam/att/co.../UVEP-100083172-DTV-Local-Connector-Guide.pdf


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> maybe there is some reason it can't/won't support the HS17?


IMO most likely it's required new FW


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## reubenray (Jun 27, 2002)

****

It won't work with my HR24.


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

Finally!!!

Anyone see how to actually order it?


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

I wonder how much it will cost and if Solid Signal will carry them? Will it support sub-channels?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

TheRatPatrol said:


> I wonder how much it will cost and if Solid Signal will carry them? Will it support sub-channels?


Cost? - unknown as of yet, at least online.

Will SS carry them? - Knowing Stuart and Co. there, eventually I'm sure.

Will it support subchannels? - Definitely the ones in their OTA database. But as for the "jumping-thru-hoops" workarounds used on the previous AM21s to bring in subchannels not in the d-b., is again unknown.

I really miss the "First Look" document process. But this appears to be another inconvenient change from AT&T we're going to have to live with now from using only in-house beta testing of new prospective equipment among their employees ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

Just ordered one via directv.com chat. Cost was $50. Hopefully this lives up to the hype.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

msglsmo said:


> Just ordered one via directv.com chat. Cost was $50. Hopefully this lives up to the hype.


You're not in the Las Vegas market by any chance are you?

Just trying to coordinate what's being said here on this topic with the forum on satelliteguys. Where a poster there just got off the phone with a CSR who said the LCC is only being released as a pilot program in the LV market and what's more it allegedly "free of charge."

Obviously, hard to believe that part ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## coconut13 (Apr 14, 2013)

They probably can't make it work with the HS17 because the HS17 doesn't have the software for compatibility. It was MADE with no OTA capabilities. Hopefully, all the "new" generation receivers will. And I'm sure they will, since they developed this OTA app.


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## lzhj9k (Mar 14, 2009)

I just attempted thru chat (Tech Support) and they had no Idea, recommended a third party for purchase....


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

coconut13 said:


> They probably can't make it work with the HS17 because the HS17 doesn't have the software for compatibility. It was MADE with no OTA capabilities. Hopefully, all the "new" generation receivers will. And I'm sure they will, since they developed this OTA app.


Then select the OTA code from a HR44/HR54, do a cut, go to the HS17 code and do a paste. Yea, not that simple but it's just software that just needs a little tweaking, not a total rewrite, to add it.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Maybe the manual is missing details and you can hook it up to the TV using USB? I think the other power adapter is coming from that amplifier on the Antenna. I have seen some antenna's that come with the amplifier built in and it can't be removed.


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## coconut13 (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm hoping this "local channel connector" is compatible with "anybodys" current OTA antenna. As most people using OTA have an antenna that "works" for their current setup. They included one for people in the heart of the city, close to the towers that probably have no current antenna.


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## 242424 (Mar 22, 2012)

I just did a chat with tech support and they said it works with the HR24. I should be getting mine next week sometime so I'll find out I guess.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

242424 said:


> I just did a chat with tech support and they said it works with the HR24. I should be getting mine next week sometime so I'll find out I guess.


Was there a charge for it?

If so how much?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## HoosierBoy (May 25, 2007)

I just finished a chat with tech support also. The chat rep directed me to the nearest AT&T store. Was told the Local Channel Connector was not available through them at this time. Must be so new, they don't have clear knowledge of the product.


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

HoTat2 said:


> You're not in the Las Vegas market by any chance are you?
> 
> Just trying to coordinate what's being said here on this topic with the forum on satelliteguys. Where a poster there just got off the phone with a CSR who said the LCC is only being released as a pilot program in the LV market and what's more it allegedly "free of charge."
> 
> ...


No, I'm in Missouri.

Well, I'm not too hopeful that I'll actually get it. I just looked my order up on DirecTV.com - it shows they ordered me an AM21. Go figure.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

msglsmo said:


> No, I'm in Missouri.
> 
> Well, I'm not too hopeful that I'll actually get it. I just looked my order up on DirecTV.com - it shows they ordered me an AM21. Go figure.


Since AM21s have been unavailable for quite a while, it may be the only way they can order the new item.


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

Search on Solid Signal comes up empty.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

msglsmo said:


> No, I'm in Missouri.
> 
> Well, I'm not too hopeful that I'll actually get it. I just looked my order up on DirecTV.com - it shows they ordered me an AM21. Go figure.


It will be interesting to see what, if anything, they send you! 

I really doubt they'd bother to update the OTA software on H2x/HR2x to support it, they probably ordered you an AM21 but even though it is apparently still in the system they haven't had any for ages. The AM21s were $50, so that lines up...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

gio12 said:


> Its appears you can use your own antenna.
> Say only HR44/54 support.
> 
> https://www.att.com/ecms/dam/att/co.../UVEP-100083172-DTV-Local-Connector-Guide.pdf


Where do you see that it says you can use your own antenna? I mean obviously you can since it has a coax port, but that document specifically says: _Use only attachments and accessories included in your kit or specified by the manufacturer_. Obviously they don't want to be in the business of supporting customers own antennas. Can't say I blame them.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Where do you see that it says you can use your own antenna? I mean obviously you can since it has a coax port, but that document specifically says: _Use only attachments and accessories included in your kit or specified by the manufacturer_. Obviously they don't want to be in the business of supporting customers own antennas. Can't say I blame them.


A TV antenna is a TV antenna and has been for years. You could use a coat hanger if you wanted. Even if they changed the connector you could adapt it.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

I tried going through chat, they are completely clueless. They say they don't provide them, but it's on their website!


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Now they are saying it's only availble in the SLC area since 8/14 because there are disputes with local channels. BS


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

studechip said:


> SLC area


where is it ?


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

P Smith said:


> where is it ?


Salt Lake City


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Sounds like this might be a Charlie Foxtrot.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

studechip said:


> They say they don't provide them, but it's on their website!


Remember, this hasn't actually officially been announced yet. I found it via a random search that provided support documentation but no ordering details, and as of last night those support pages were the only results for this on google. Don't expect the low level CSRs to know anything about a nationwide release until there's an actual announcement.

The Vegas and Salt Lake City thing some people got as a response makes sense and explains a lot, those were the two markets in addition to AT&T/DirecTV's home bases of LA (El Segundo) and Dallas that initially got the OTA listings expansion back in May, so they are likely the pilot markets. While Binghamton, Charlottesville, Chicago, Eureka, Fort Myers, Idaho Falls, Medford, Milwaukee, Rockford, San Diego, Shreveport, South Bend, Spokane, Syracuse, Yakima and Yuma got the OTA listings expansion back in July.

This also wouldn't be the first time DirecTV initially released new products to specific markets at first. Hopefully them recently putting this in the support section means that an official nationwide launch is coming soon, and it will be available to order as a new accessory under your account like the AM21 was, or from 3rd parties like SolidSignal and Weaknees. (Along with the further expansion of OTA listings)


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

studechip said:


> Now they are saying it's only availble in the SLC area since 8/14 because there are disputes with local channels. BS


Salt Lake City, Vegas, Los Angeles and Dallas were the first four markets to get all their locals added, so some of us assumed that's where the test markets were.

Directv HQ is in LA and AT&T HQ is in Dallas...perhaps the other two cities have a lot of employees due to call centers or whatever.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Anyone think announcing that new OTA tuner has something to do with the DTV over IP service? They say it will have the same look and feel as the satelliteTV service? However, they can't get all the locals for DTV NOW. Would it be easier it be easier to get the streaming rights for all the DTV channels including the locals for DTV over IP than for DTV NOW? What if was easier to get all the cable channels for DTV over IP but they didn't get all the all the rights to the local channels and that is taking longer?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Could be, but I would think it shouldn't be much longer before they have the same rights for DTV over IP that they do for DTV over satellite.

I think it might have more to do with the continually escalating cost of locals - it is over $11 for me (Mediacom breaks out the charge) and probably isn't far behind even for a giant like Directv. It promises to continue to go up.

Providing a way for people who can pick their locals OTA to do so would help in disputes, and if they went all the way and broke out the locals charge and allowed you to remove it from your package, it would really reduce the leverage local stations had in the next fight. When Directv saw the Sinclair merger pending (which fortunately did not happen) they were probably dreading what they saw coming for that next negotiation...they would have had stations in 70% of the markets.

It would also stave off cord cutting - most of which is happening due to cable/satellite prices. Being able to cut $10 off your bill would be like getting no price increase for a couple years (someone will chime in and say their yearly increases are over $5 for some, but locals are probably a couple bucks of that increase each year)


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> Where do you see that it says you can use your own antenna? I mean obviously you can since it has a coax port, but that document specifically says: _Use only attachments and accessories included in your kit or specified by the manufacturer_. Obviously they don't want to be in the business of supporting customers own antennas. Can't say I blame them.


 Well, looks obvious and I assume it will be. I don't think there are sensors to make sure only DIRECTV antennas work.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> I think it might have more to do with the continually escalating cost of locals - it is over $11 for me (Mediacom breaks out the charge) and probably isn't far behind even for a giant like Directv. It promises to continue to go up.


DISH now breaks out the cost of locals as $12 per month and allows customers to drop locals from their packages.

Cable companies do not have that option. (Offering locals is a required part of cable services.)
Satellite companies are not required to include locals in every subscription.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> Could be, but I would think it shouldn't be much longer before they have the same rights for DTV over IP that they do for DTV over satellite.
> 
> I think it might have more to do with the continually escalating cost of locals - it is over $11 for me (Mediacom breaks out the charge) and probably isn't far behind even for a giant like Directv. It promises to continue to go up.
> 
> ...


So do you think one day the only way to get the locals would be through an antenna? Say DTV just had the cable channels through their box and you had to hook up an antenna to their box and that would work with DTV's server and cloud DVR.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

You're asking a question about a future streaming product who's details have yet to be officially revealed, and the only known info about it is a bunch of very vague comments under a forward looking statement disclaimer that can be interpretted (or misinterpreted) many ways. Any response you get is just going to be pure speculation, no one who is in a position to say anything publically is going to have an actual answer to these questions.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

KyL416 said:


> You're asking a question about a product who's details have yet to be officially revealed, any response you get is just going to be pure speculation, no one who is in a position to say anything publically is going to have an actual answer to these questions.


That a good a way of looking at we won't know how it looks and acts until it launches.


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## reubenray (Jun 27, 2002)

242424 said:


> I just did a chat with tech support and they said it works with the HR24. I should be getting mine next week sometime so I'll find out I guess.


I am keeping my fingers crossed that it does. My AM21 could go belly up at any time.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Shad said:


> No idea what I will actually receive.


it will be AM21


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Unless they found some in a warehouse they ran out of AM21s quite a while ago. They certainly didn't make more.

My bet is that he gets nothing, except maybe a call/email from Directv advising him the AM21 is discontinued. Or "on backorder"


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## lzhj9k (Mar 14, 2009)

I agree There are none to be had, I bought three of the AM22's Years ago... It will probably show an Open Order..


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Yep ...

That's what Tech. Support "repeatedly" told me a couple of days ago when I called about the new LCC. 

That the AM21 is now long discontinued and none are available, since they had no knowledge of the new LCC and thought I was mistakenly referring to the AM21.

Then when they finally discovered (much to their shock) about the LCC, they apologized for not knowing about it and told me it was still in pilot testing in the LV market and not available anywhere else yet.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

P Smith said:


> it will be AM21


well, now I must say - "we are cancelled your order due &#8230;"


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

HoTat2 said:


> Yep ...
> 
> That's what Tech. Support "repeatedly" told me a couple of days ago when I called about the new LCC.
> 
> ...


They told me it was only available in SLC.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

studechip said:


> They told me it was only available in SLC.


perhaps "pilot testing" happen in LV, but first deployment is going to SLC


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

I asked some friends about this that work in the loyalty group for D* only one actually knew what I was referring to because the just saw the update AT&T sent out about the LCC.

They are conducting a pilot test in LV where customers can opt out of receiving satellite delivered locals in exchange for getting them via the LCC. He couldn't remember offhand exactly what the trial entails except they don't get the satellite delivered locals and it impacts customers that are in the new billing system. (If your DTV only bill looks like this and has a 9-digit account # then your in the new system. If this is your bill or you have a D* account number 8 digits or less then your in the old pre-merger D* billing system.) He said the page on the website explains all the details of what customers can/can't do if they are just using the LCC only.

Only customers in SLC atm can call in and order a LCC regardless if they are in the new or old billing system. Except for the pilot test, AT&T will only allow agents to order the LCC when an active, major local channel dispute is occurring and agents are supposed to check here (or here) to see how far away you are from the local station(s) in question before ordering.

According to the official info they have been given it says the LCC works for the HR44, HR54 & H44 models only. It clearly states it will not work with the HS17 (Genie 2) but doesn't say anything about the HR24. (He can't remember if the HR34 was mentioned or not.) Since the AM21 worked with HR24 he thinks the LCC should also work with that model as well but he said don't hold him to that.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

techguy88 said:


> agents are supposed to check here


The tool in the first link is horrible. It operates on a radius where 45 miles = strong, 65 = moderate, and 85 = weak, instead of a calculated signal strength that takes into account terrain and the actual power and signal pattern of the station. It's also full of highly outdated data. (i.e. they don't reflect spectrum sharing and they still list Philly's MeTV station by their former Wyoming callsign and NBC affiliation) Even stations within that 45 mile range they flag as "strong" will be impossible to get with the antenna they supply. They also only list the RF numbers, which is good for determining what type of antenna you need, but useless when a CSR is trying to explain what channels a customer would potentially get.

That second link is much better.

As for the HR2x, it really depends on what chips are inside the LCC and what ManufacturerId/DeviceId it reports. If it's chips from different manufacturers or a newer model from the same manufacturer that isn't backwards compatible with the ones used by the AM21, it won't work. While tuners do the same function, the actual firmware and kernel modules needed to use them depend on the specific chipsets used. (i.e. Hauppauge's 950, 950Q and 955Q use different kernel modules and firmware)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

So to summarize ...

1) The new LCC is only available right now to subscribers in the Las Vegas market as part of the pilot program?

2) Except for the SLC market, you must be on the new post-merger billing system to order the LCC when it becomes available in your market?

3) When you have the LCC, you then have the option to drop satellite delivered locals from your account and save on your bill?

4) The only exception to currently distributing the LCC to subs. outside the LV market are for those affected by local channel blackouts. Once it's verified the sub. is acceptably within range of their market's OTA transmission towers?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## Shad (May 29, 2007)

As expected my order for the LCC has never arrived. The order generated as an AM21 when they tried to order it. In the meantime I brought my old AM21 out of the basement and it's working like a charm. I don't know why I stopped using it. Some subchannels are missing, but the workarounds fix it other than some wrong info in the guide.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Very interesting that they are doing this with the aim of letting people opt out of the locals. They talked about that years ago and then nothing happened. I wonder how much of a discount they'll be giving?


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

Most of the pundits here seem to think DTV's view of the future is to go to a server-and-client model. So why would they spend the time to design and produce ANYTHING that doesn't work with that model?


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## Al K (Jan 23, 2004)

Last Friday I called and was told my order would be here the next day. Called Tuesday and they said there was a problem with Fedex. My order would be here today. Received Fedex package this morning. Inside were two power cords that probably go to receivers! Called today and was told that that I got all the locals I needed via satellite!

I talked to six people in total and everyone told me a different lie. I think they were clueless and were afraid to have an unhappy customer. They just lied and got rid of me. They must be under pressure to resolve issues on their own and not pass them up the ladder. Anyone who cared about me as a customer would have tried to find someone with the answer or just told me the truth.

I still want an LCC to replace my failed AM21.


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## TXD16 (Oct 30, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> I wonder how much of a discount they'll be giving?


I'd be happy without one. It would be worth it just to have all my subchannels accurately integrated into the guide.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Shad said:


> As expected my order for the LCC has never arrived. The order generated as an AM21 when they tried to order it. In the meantime I brought my old AM21 out of the basement and it's working like a charm. I don't know why I stopped using it. Some subchannels are missing, but the workarounds fix it other than some wrong info in the guide.


That's what I did when I first read about the sudden recent update of the OTA database for the LA market on the iamanedgecutter site ...

Immediately pulled an old AM21 out of the closet and installed it on my HR54.

And yep, ... still works fine and pulls in all the new recent subchannel additions to the database.

However while I can also update the HR24s I have here with AM21s attached to the new database. I notice that even before the update for and good while now, the HR24s no longer seem to operate smoothly with the AM21 while watching OTA channels.

When trying to surf or navigate the guide while on an OTA channel, the box's operation seems to slow down and becomes very herky-jerky with picture and sound breakup when navigating or scrolling the guide.

It sorta feels like the AM21 nowadays is over taxing the HR24's processor or something to where it struggles to multitask with other functions when viewing an OTA channel.

The Genie is still fine with the AM21, but not the HR24s any longer. ...

Weird ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> So to summarize ...
> 
> 1) The new LCC is only available right now to subscribers in the Las Vegas market as part of the pilot program?
> 
> ...


5) It doesn't work with their new goto server-client unit, the HS17, so if you have one of those you're SOL.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

TheRatPatrol said:


> 5) It doesn't work with their new goto server-client unit, the HS17, so if you have one of those you're SOL.


Well it is also pre-release so I wouldn't worry about that as an issue until it goes full release. The original blurb about it that began the speculation about the new OTA adapter mentioned software updates for the HS27 and HS37. Seems likely those would also handle the HS17. I'd "wait and see" before worrying that the HS17 is going to be left out in the cold...


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

Well, shockingly enough, my order for the DirecTV Loxal Channel Connector hasn’t arrived after a week. Of course the order says “AM21” so I didn’t really expect it to. 

After a web chat, I was assured it was a FedEx issue and they would resend. I verified (by providing the DirecTV.com/lcc link) it was for the LCC, but of course it is another AM21 order. Shock!


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## 242424 (Mar 22, 2012)

msglsmo said:


> Well, shockingly enough, my order for the DirecTV Loxal Channel Connector hasn't arrived after a week. Of course the order says "AM21" so I didn't really expect it to.
> 
> After a web chat, I was assured it was a FedEx issue and they would resend. I verified (by providing the DirecTV.com/lcc link) it was for the LCC, but of course it is another AM21 order. Shock!


Mine isn't here either


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

msglsmo said:


> Well, shockingly enough, my order for the DirecTV Loxal Channel Connector hasn't arrived after a week. Of course the order says "AM21" so I didn't really expect it to.
> 
> After a web chat, I was assured it was a FedEx issue and they would resend. I verified (by providing the DirecTV.com/lcc link) it was for the LCC, but of course it is another AM21 order. Shock!


What market are you in?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> What market are you in?


His profile list Kansas City, MO.

Which if correct places him like most everyone else here. Outside the Las Vegas market and therefore the new LCC is unavailable and the CSRs are just confused (as usual) about the ststus of the LCC is all.

Mixing it up with the AM21 which should have been removed from the ordering system and programmed to notify the CSRs of its unavailability and obsolescence.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## msglsmo (Dec 27, 2015)

Correct - Kansas City, MO.

Why the AM21 is still available to order is beyond me. They haven’t made it in quite some time.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

My guess is they needed to use something for the model of the lcc, and until they get the IT department to create it in the system, they are just resurrecting the old am21 to use for the moment.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

HoTat2 said:


> So to summarize ...
> 
> 1) The new LCC is only available right now to subscribers in the Las Vegas market as part of the pilot program?
> 
> ...


 1 - Yes
2 - Yes
3a - Las Vegas market part of the pilot program in the post-merger billing system - *Yes*
3b - Anyone going through a local channel dispute like the SLC market (pre/post merger billing sytems) - *No* 
4 - Yes


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

inkahauts said:


> My guess is they needed to use something for the model of the lcc, and until they get the IT department to create it in the system, they are just resurrecting the old am21 to use for the moment.


I'll have to double check with my friend but there is supposed to be a specific offer called "LCC" or "Local Channel Connector" in their systems. AT&T activates this $0 offer when appropriate like with the SLC market. If an agent tries to order the "AM21" in the ordering system the order won't get filled. He's not sure why they never took the AM21 out of the system when they discontinued it.


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## dod1450 (Dec 16, 2009)

KyL416 said:


> It's called the "DirecTV Local Channel Connector"
> DIRECTV Local Channel Connector


 FYI after talking to tech support. It works like the old AM-21 box. Their is nothing special other then being smaller. So if you have the AM-21 go ahead and use that. I have two of them and they are picking up many OTA channels.


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## dod1450 (Dec 16, 2009)

techguy88 said:


> I'll have to double check with my friend but there is supposed to be a specific offer called "LCC" or "Local Channel Connector" in their systems. AT&T activates this $0 offer when appropriate like with the SLC market. If an agent tries to order the "AM21" in the ordering system the order won't get filled. He's not sure why they never took the AM21 out of the system when they discontinued it.


Good question. I have had mine ever since they came out. Had many technicians that came out to the house who had never seen one.


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## dod1450 (Dec 16, 2009)

inkahauts said:


> My guess is they needed to use something for the model of the lcc, and until they get the IT department to create it in the system, they are just resurrecting the old am21 to use for the moment.


 They had this function many years ago until they took out the support from the Linux firmware.


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## AngryManMLS (Jan 30, 2014)

dod1450 said:


> FYI after talking to tech support. It works like the old AM-21 box. Their is nothing special other then being smaller. So if you have the AM-21 go ahead and use that. I have two of them and they are picking up many OTA channels.


I was hoping DirecTV would at least add support for the Genie 2 (HS-17) with this new dongle. But alas I guess that's not happening.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

AngryManMLS said:


> I was hoping DirecTV would at least add support for the Genie 2 (HS-17) with this new dongle. But alas I guess that's not happening.


They have added it to the latest FW for the HS17 in preparation of the new OTA dongle I understand.

Though the AM21 still does not work on it ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Beginning with FW version 0x1147 which is rolling out for the HS17, there is a new category in the system info. screen for the OTA module.

The problem is no one (who can talk about it at least) has the new LCC dongle to actually test the new FW update ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

dod1450 said:


> FYI after talking to tech support. It works like the old AM-21 box. Their is nothing special other then being smaller. So if you have the AM-21 go ahead and use that. I have two of them and they are picking up many OTA channels.


The AM21 uses a very old ATSC tuner chip, which is not nearly as good at 'problem' reception like multipath as compared to newer ones. So if you have channels you care about that come in fine via the tuner on your TV, but have issues on the AM21, you'll want to try the LCC.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> Beginning with FW version 0x1147 which is rolling out for the HS17, there is a new category in the system info. screen for the OTA module.
> 
> The problem is no one (who can talk about it at least) has the new LCC dongle to actually test the new FW update ...
> 
> Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


I've heard that while the OTA section is now showing up in the HS17 software that doesn't necessarily mean that the new LLC will be supported. There is a chance that the USB driver needed for the LLC might not be ported over to the HS17. I hope that's not true but you'd think that if it was going to be supported we would have heard something about it by now.


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## reds1963 (Aug 29, 2007)

My AM21 is dying these days i have to unplug then plug it back in to get the station to show a picture , i did inquire about the LCC and was told they have them , but they will not let me have or purchase one , since my locals are not in any kind of dispute at this time .


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

reds1963 said:


> My AM21 is dying these days i have to unplug then plug it back in to get the station to show a picture , i did inquire about the LCC and was told they have them , but they will not let me have or purchase one , since my locals are not in any kind of dispute at this time .


AM21s still holding up fine here ...

But unfortunately after a very successful expansion of the OTA database for the LA market (and other markets as well I understand), the guide info. has inexplicably failed for many of the new channel additions. With most of them now simply reading "Regular Schedule."

Just like they were low power channels outside the DIRECTV database detected off-air ... 

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Oh well . ...

Back to mainly relying on my OTA TiVo again for DVR'ing off-air programming ... sign ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

RAD said:


> I've heard that while the OTA section is now showing up in the HS17 software that doesn't necessarily mean that the new LLC will be supported. There is a chance that the USB driver needed for the LLC might not be ported over to the HS17. I hope that's not true but you'd think that if it was going to be supported we would have heard something about it by now.


I don't see why they would add the OTA section to the HS17's firmware if they weren't going to add the driver for the LCC. Unless the HS17's USB port is not functional (which makes no sense which have one if it isn't connected) there's no reason they wouldn't want to support the LCC on it.

From the sound of things, it appears they are going to try to entice people to drop locals on their satellite and pick them up via OTA. If Directv gives them a $10 discount for doing so they'll still come out ahead since locals cost more than that in many markets and the price will only go up in the future. It also helps Directv have a bit better negotiating position when threatened with a blackout, since fewer customers would be affected.

If that's the plan, the more customers they can get to do this the better off everyone else. So they have a good reason to support the HS17, even if they originally had no plans for OTA when it was first designed.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> I don't see why they would add the OTA section to the HS17's firmware if they weren't going to add the driver for the LCC. Unless the HS17's USB port is not functional (which makes no sense which have one if it isn't connected) there's no reason they wouldn't want to support the LCC on it.


I'm honestly seeing less and less need for OTA. Main channels come with DirecTV. I don't know about your area, but I live in the Los Angeles area and our sub channels suck. ABC sub channels are all stretched / distorted. Another sub channel, I forgot which ones likes to take 4:3 content (which is pretty much the main reason for OTA) and compress it down to 3:3 (yup, a square picture). And yet another channel takes 4:3 content, pillars it, letter boxes that, then pillars that whole mess and then slaps another letter box on it. No joke. So the picture literally only fills the center 25% of the screen.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> I'm honestly seeing less and less need for OTA. Main channels come with DirecTV. I don't know about your area, but I live in the Los Angeles area and our sub channels suck. ABC sub channels are all stretched / distorted. Another sub channel, I forgot which ones likes to take 4:3 content (which is pretty much the main reason for OTA) and compress it down to 3:3 (yup, a square picture). And yet another channel takes 4:3 content, pillars it, letter boxes that, then pillars that whole mess and then slaps another letter box on it. No joke. So the picture literally only fills the center 25% of the screen.


Come to parts of the USA where thunderstorms are normal for the summer months. It's not the subchannels need, its to just watch TV. Locals for sports, local news, aside from prime time programming.
For this issue, if the Genie, assuming it is broadband connected, just cut over to the streaming version like the Dtv App, would minimize the need for OTA during rain fade (or snow in some areas).

Then there is the need for local channel disputes. I have no idea, but maybe Directv will give them away during a local dispute? That could be the plan.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

If you're seeing squished pictures on a subchannel, it might be that your TV's tuner doesn't automatically handle SD widescreen channels. My Toshiba TV and Windows Media Center automatically recognizes them, but on my Viore and LG TVs we have to manually switch it to widescreen with the picture size button.

The Katz networks Laff, Escape, Grit and Bounce all switched to widescreen earlier this year, and others like Cozi, Justice Network, StartTV, Decades, Heroes & Icons, MeTV, Movies!, Comet, Stadium, TBD, Light TV, Quest, Create, World and PBS Kids also originate in widescreen.

You mentioned KABC, they carry both Live Well and Laff in SD widescreen, they used to have Livewell in HD like the rest of the ABC O&O's, but they dropped it down to SD widescreen after KRCA/Estrella started spectrum sharing with them.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

KyL416 said:


> If you're seeing squished pictures on a subchannel, it might be that your TV's tuner doesn't automatically handle SD widescreen channels. My Toshiba TV and Windows Media Center automatically recognizes them, but on my Viore and LG TVs we have to manually switch it to widescreen with the picture size button.
> 
> The Katz networks Laff, Escape, Grit and Bounce all switched to widescreen earlier this year, and others like Cozi, Justice Network, StartTV, Decades, Heroes & Icons, MeTV, Movies!, Comet, Stadium, TBD, Light TV, Quest, Create, World and PBS Kids also originate in widescreen.
> 
> You mentioned KABC, they carry both Live Well and Laff in SD widescreen, they used to have Livewell in HD like the rest of the ABC O&O's, but they dropped it down to SD widescreen after KRCA/Estrella started spectrum sharing with them.


I go OTA through my AM21 + HR24, so I guess that's the culprit. Does your setup fix window boxing too? Windowbox (filmmaking) - Wikipedia


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

NR4P said:


> Come to parts of the USA where thunderstorms are normal for the summer months. It's not the subchannels need, its to just watch TV. Locals for sports, local news, aside from prime time programming.
> For this issue, if the Genie, assuming it is broadband connected, just cut over to the streaming version like the Dtv App, would minimize the need for OTA during rain fade (or snow in some areas).
> 
> Then there is the need for local channel disputes. I have no idea, but maybe Directv will give them away during a local dispute? That could be the plan.


But your location is "Sunny Florida" . Yeah, I don't get too many storms / rain fade. I think I've gotten rain fade maybe once in my 20+ yr DirecTV career. I watch the sub channels for the TV classics and This Old House, but finally the local PBS channel started airing TOH in legit HD.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

It depends on how the station originates their signal. If there is a station doing letterboxing instead of SD widescreen for one of those widescreen networks, you might have some luck sending an e-mail to the station's engineering department. That's how I got my stations fixed after the Katz networks switched to widescreen earlier this year as well as France 24 on one of my PBS stations.

Like that Create example. Create originates in SD widescreen, so older 4:3 programs are pillarboxed by the network. Since that station is incorrectly showing Create letterboxed, it results in the windowbox effect whenever those older programs air. If that's your station, you can try sending an e-mail to their engineer and ask them to make Create SD widescreen like most of the other PBS stations have it.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

SledgeHammer said:


> I go OTA through my AM21 + HR24, so I guess that's the culprit. Does your setup fix window boxing too? Windowbox (filmmaking) - Wikipedia


I'm in the LA market too (So. LA area specifically) ...

Can you tell me what channels are annoyingly letterboxed this way to check on my end?

I have 2 HR24s here with AM21s attached and a HR54 Genie with one.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> I'm in the LA market too (So. LA area specifically) ...
> 
> Can you tell me what channels are annoyingly letterboxed this way to check on my end?
> 
> ...


7-3 on my setup is stretched SD for me. Night Court, That 70's Show, etc. <-- this one is easy to check since its pretty much all the classic shows in the evenings.

I can't remember the one that doesn't 4:3 -> 3:3... I want to say its one of the 18's. Specifically I'd see this on the Incredible Hulk (70's version).

The window boxing occurs on some of the PBS channels.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

Can you take a picture of what you see? Laff now originates in widescreen, so the network pillarboxes older shows like Night Court, Home Improvement and earlier seasons of That 70's Show. According to Rabbitears, KABC is one of the stations that switched them to widescreen earlier this year.

Here are some VLC screenshots of how Laff looks as SD Widescreen on ABC's Philly O&O WPVI 6-3 right now, along with the PBS subchannel nets World, PBS Kids and Create:




































On the other hand, here's a before and after shot of France 24 on WLVTDT3, the first is from August, prior to when I got their engineer to fix the channel:















There is an issue with stations with older encoders that insert a Sequence Display Extension header and DirecTV and the AM21 isn't properly detecting them as SD widescreen so you need to use the format button to see them properly. Like here I have to do it for KYW, WNEP/WVIA and WPHL/WUVP's SD widescreen subchannels, even though my Toshiba's tuner and the DTV converters on my spare TVs handle SD widescreen just fine for those channels. While the aspect ratios for WOLF, WPVI, WDPN, WBRE, WYOU, WCAU/WWSI and WBPH/WFMZ/WPPT/WLVT's SD widescreen subchannels are detected properly with my AM21/HR24-500.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

SledgeHammer said:


> 7-3 on my setup is stretched SD for me. Night Court, That 70's Show, etc. <-- this one is easy to check since its pretty much all the classic shows in the evenings.
> 
> I can't remember the one that doesn't 4:3 -> 3:3... I want to say its one of the 18's. Specifically I'd see this on the Incredible Hulk (70's version).
> 
> The window boxing occurs on some of the PBS channels.


Ok, don't have access to the two HR24s with AM21s at the moment ...

But on the Genie with AM21 anyhow, LAFF on 7-3 is showing in stretched 16:9 SD (or "stretch-a-vision") ... yuck.

And the KLCS PBS subchannels 58-2 (PBS Kids) and 58-3 (Create) are both in 16:9 SD. And KOCE 50-2 (PBS-2) is in 16:9 SD. 50-3 (Daystar) and 50-4 (PBS World) are both in 16:9 SD anamorphically squeezed into 4:3 (or "squish-a-vision") ... yuck again .

And 50-5 (PBS Kids) is in 16:9 SD.

Not seeing any letterbox images on those channels, but will check on one of the HR24s when they're available.

Family members watching them both at the moment. 

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

HoTat2 said:


> But on the Genie with AM21 anyhow, LAFF on 7-3 is showing in stretched 16:9 SD (or "stretch-a-vision") ... yuck.


You might want to try sending an e-mail to KABC and Laff then, it sounds like they are incorrectly cropping it to 4:3 even though the aspect ratio for 7-3 is set to 16:9. WUVP and WDPN in Philly had the same problem with their sister networks Bounce, Escape and Grit after they initially switched to widescreen, but they had since fixed it. Check the screenshot I posted from WPVI. That's how Laff's supposed to look.



HoTat2 said:


> 50-3 (Daystar) and 50-4 (PBS World) are both in 16:9 SD anamorphically squeezed into 4:3 (or "squish-a-vision") ... yuck again .


Try sending an e-mail to KOCE, if they are showing 50-2 and 50-5 in the proper aspect ratio, they shouldn't have a problem doing the same for their other subchannels. All they have to do is change the aspect ratio flag to 16:9 on 50-3 and 50-4.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

KyL416 said:


> You might want to send an e-mail to KABC and Laff then, it sounds like they are cropping it to 4:3 even though the channel is 16:9. WUVP in Philly had a similar problem with their sister network Bounce after they initially switched to widescreen, but they had since fixed it.
> 
> Check the screenshot I posted from WPVI. That's how Laff's supposed to look.


Yeah OK ...

Thanks for the head's up ...

Will contact KABC and LAFF.

Just like "That 70's Show" in on right now and it's clearly displaying as 4:3 stretched to 16:9.









Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah OK ...
> 
> Thanks for the head's up ...
> 
> ...


Yup. Every show on 7-3 is Stretch-O-Vision from what I've seen. That 70's Show, Night Court. I posted a pic on here many years ago of window boxing on one of the OTAs. Like I said, I tried watching the '70's Incredible Hulk on one of the OTAs and it was 4:3 squeezed to a square pic. I'm pretty sure it was on one of the 18 sub channels.

Channel 5 sub channels show classic shows too, but somehow they manage to do it right.

I've also seen TBS airings of married with children distorted on both the SD and HD channel.

Another one of the OTAs air's MacGyver. I think that's on Saturdays / Sundays. That's all distorted too.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah OK ...
> 
> Thanks for the head's up ...
> 
> ...


Here is a 3:3 pic from 18-4 that I got just now:


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

If you want to, you can try contacting their chief engineer that's listed as the closed captioning contact in KSCI's public profile.

You can also try contacting CGNTV America at the e-mail address listed at the bottom of their website. But since KSCI's subchannels are all time brokered ethnic programming, there might be a language barrier if you try to contact them.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

KyL416 said:


> If you want to, you can try contacting their chief engineer that's listed as the closed captioning contact in KSCI's public profile.
> 
> You can also try contacting CGNTV America at the e-mail address listed at the bottom of their website. But since KSCI's subchannels are all time brokered ethnic programming, there might be a language barrier if you try to contact them.


Yeah, I don't want to watch Korean church stuff that bad lol... only reason I ever went to that channel was because they aired Incredible Hulk or MacGyver at some point and it was distorted like that.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

SledgeHammer said:


> Here is a 3:3 pic from 18-4 that I got just now:


Yeah, its actually another 16:9 SD anamorphic ("squish-a-vision").

Which means of course that any native 4:3 material they broadcast as in your photo, will first be pillar-boxed into 16:9, which when both the image and the pillar bars are anamorphically squeezed into 4:3 that will cause the original 4:3 image between the pillar bars to be dropped to a 1:1 ratio like that.

But your complaint is well taken as I've never really understood the purpose of broadcasting 16:9 anamorphic video.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## reubenray (Jun 27, 2002)

I am curious as to how the picture quality is using the ota dongle vs the locals coming through the receiver the regular way.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

reubenray said:


> I am curious as to how the picture quality is using the ota dongle vs the locals coming through the receiver the regular way.


it's well know fact - better, 
especially if your local stations keep one mux mostly for one HD program and do not over compress in favor to provide many subchannels


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## am3211 (Mar 23, 2008)

*I am curious as to how the picture quality is using the ota dongle vs the locals coming through the receiver the regular way.
*

I have an HR44 and three HR24's each with a corresponding AM21. My OTA picture quality is as good if not better than the Directv hosted local channels


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

reubenray said:


> I am curious as to how the picture quality is using the ota dongle vs the locals coming through the receiver the regular way.


I don't think the improvement of the new LCC will be so much in PQ over the AM21. But in reception performance for better sensitivity and resistance to multipath effects due to a more modern ATSC chip in it verses the one in the AM21 which is now over 10 years old.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

HoTat2 said:


> I don't think the improvement of the new LCC will be so much in PQ over the AM21. But in reception performance for better sensitivity and resistance to multipath effects due to a more modern ATSC chip in it verses the one in the AM21 which is now over 10 years old.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


I've found the AM21 to be much less sensitive than my tv tuners. Years back I had an LG 3200a Directv box. The ota tuner was much better than any of the other off branded ones.


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## coconut13 (Apr 14, 2013)

People don't understand that ANY, AM21 or LCC is only as good as the RECEIVING CAPABILITIES of your ANTENNA. If you have an antenna that receives a station the AM21-LCC works, if you don't it won't. This is why D* has refused to deal with OTA. To many customers want to blame the AM21, when it actually has to do with their own antenna issues. Now the limited database of channels also comes into play, and D* seems willing to address this issue before they issue the LCC to the public. But it boils down to people not understanding the capabilities of a AM21-LCC and understanding how the database of channels works with the AM21-LCC. This creates a lot of confusion for D* CSR's.


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## dod1450 (Dec 16, 2009)

coconut13 said:


> People don't understand that ANY, AM21 or LCC is only as good as the RECEIVING CAPABILITIES of your ANTENNA. If you have an antenna that receives a station the AM21-LCC works, if you don't it won't. This is why D* has refused to deal with OTA. To many customers want to blame the AM21, when it actually has to do with their own antenna issues. Now the limited database of channels also comes into play, and D* seems willing to address this issue before they issue the LCC to the public. But it boils down to people not understanding the capabilities of a AM21-LCC and understanding how the database of channels works with the AM21-LCC. This creates a lot of confusion for D* CSR's.


 I agree. I have an outdoor antenna that is 20 feet above my roof with a rotor. With this my TV's are able to pick up 100 local channels plus. I am using an AM-21 that has been passing great picture OTA quality. I also would like to see Directv replace all the channels in their guide from "regular schedule" to the actual channel information.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> it's well know fact - better,
> especially if your local stations keep one mux mostly for one HD program and do not over compress in favor to provide many subchannels


That is not true. The only answer to his question is "it depends". In most cases there will be little or no difference. In some cases one will be significantly better - the OTA is more likely to be better on an OTA station that has few subchannels (especially zero) However, there are cases where Directv is getting a direct feed that originates BEFORE the station's mux, and if that station has a lot of subchannels (or one of those subchannels is HD) then what Directv broadcasts via satellite will be better.

It is easy to find out without an LCC though. Just plug an antenna into your TV's tuner and compare the channel OTA to the channel Directv delivers.


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## reubenray (Jun 27, 2002)

I have an OTA setup that is connected to my TV to use when it is storming. The signal from Directv is good, but not as good as the direct signal from the antenna. I do not know what would happen to the signal from the antenna once it goes into the Directv receiver.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

reubenray said:


> I have an OTA setup that is connected to my TV to use when it is storming. The signal from Directv is good, but not as good as the direct signal from the antenna. I do not know what would happen to the signal from the antenna once it goes into the Directv receiver.


with LCC and your OTA antenna it should be same as your TV


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## 242424 (Mar 22, 2012)

reubenray said:


> I have an OTA setup that is connected to my TV to use when it is storming. The signal from Directv is good, but not as good as the direct signal from the antenna. I do not know what would happen to the signal from the antenna once it goes into the Directv receiver.


+1 And if it happens to be a SD broadcast, it isn't even close.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I would add 100500 if I would be in your shoes


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

reubenray said:


> I have an OTA setup that is connected to my TV to use when it is storming. The signal from Directv is good, but not as good as the direct signal from the antenna. I do not know what would happen to the signal from the antenna once it goes into the Directv receiver.


You'll get the same picture from an OTA signal going into any device.


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## millertime (Sep 2, 2007)

Anyone know with all the OTA updates happening are they also updating the channel logos? I get Grand Rapids locals and South Bend locals with my AM21 and the CBS logos still shows Video Rola


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

millertime said:


> Anyone know with all the OTA updates happening are they also updating the channel logos? I get Grand Rapids locals and South Bend locals with my AM21 and the CBS logos still shows Video Rola


Sadly they have yet to update the logo_id for the OTA CBS stations after someone screwed up several years ago and gave VideoRola logo_id 19, but instead of reverting it, they gave CBS a new logo_id and never updated the logo_id for the OTA CBS stations.

Once the LCC officially launches, it should hopefully be easier to report the issue to a CSR.


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## millertime (Sep 2, 2007)

KyL416 said:


> Sadly they have yet to update the logo_id for the OTA CBS stations after someone screwed up several years ago and gave VideoRola logo_id 19, but instead of reverting it, they gave CBS a new logo_id and never updated the logo_id for the OTA CBS stations.
> 
> Once the LCC officially launches, it should hopefully be easier to report the issue to a CSR.


You


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## millertime (Sep 2, 2007)

You would think with all the attention OTA is getting right now that channel logo updates would be on the to do list. I was thinking since South Bend has been updated the logo would have been fixed. Also I haven’t noticed any additional channels added to S. Bend since the update. Any ideas?


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Hopefully adding LCC support on the HS17 has a higher priority than fixing channel logo's.


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## AngryManMLS (Jan 30, 2014)

RAD said:


> Hopefully adding LCC support on the HS17 has a higher priority than fixing channel logo's.


Maybe they can throw in support for the existing AM-21? I still have one that until I upgraded to the HS17 worked just fine. If they don't then no worries I'll eventually get the new dongle and call it a day.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

AngryManMLS said:


> Maybe they can throw in support for the existing AM-21? I still have one that until I upgraded to the HS17 worked just fine. If they don't then no worries I'll eventually get the new dongle and call it a day.


I would say there's probably zero chance of them making the AM21 work with the HS17. The AM21 is obsolete, you should count yourself lucky it still works with the HR44 & HR54. If it weren't for the LCC, they probably would have pulled OTA support when they introduced the new GUI.


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## AngryManMLS (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> I would say there's probably zero chance of them making the AM21 work with the HS17. The AM21 is obsolete, you should count yourself lucky it still works with the HR44 & HR54. If it weren't for the LCC, they probably would have pulled OTA support when they introduced the new GUI.


It's more of wishful thinking on my part of the AM21 working with the HS17 than anything else. The odds of that happening are as likely as the 49ers chances of winning Super Bowl 53 right now are which is... well.... none.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

Add the Packers to that list too.....


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## AngryManMLS (Jan 30, 2014)

codespy said:


> Add the Packers to that list too.....


And at this rate... the Patriots.


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## VARTV (Dec 14, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> That is not true. The only answer to his question is "it depends". In most cases there will be little or no difference. In some cases one will be significantly better - the OTA is more likely to be better on an OTA station that has few subchannels (especially zero) However, there are cases where Directv is getting a direct feed that originates BEFORE the station's mux, and if that station has a lot of subchannels (or one of those subchannels is HD) then what Directv broadcasts via satellite will be better.
> 
> It is easy to find out without an LCC though. Just plug an antenna into your TV's tuner and compare the channel OTA to the channel Directv delivers.


Just saw this post. I don't know what our local FOX station (WVBT/Virginia Beach) is doing but their OTA picture is very "noisy." On a whim, I decided to pull up the FOXSports app on Roku to view the same sports porgram... Was. Blown. Away. A MUCH better picture that was missing all the "noise" around the players and graphics. FOX has SB54. If our local station doesn't "fix" their PQ, I could be watching the game on the app...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I went on Zap2it yesterday for something unrelated and noticed my local Fox affiliate has added a THIRD SD subchannel. I had noticed the picture looked even worse than I remembered recently, I guess this is why.

BTW, you can go to rabbitears.info and see the bit rates for the main and various subchannels. They are almost always variable, sometimes it shows the range other times a single figure which may be the average or may be the max, I'm not sure.

It shows my Fox station's main channel is 10.35 Mbps. WVBT shows 6.15 to 12.8. Not sure why it is so low when you have only two subchannels, maybe they are making room to add more soon.


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## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

The has to be someone in the Salt Lake or Vegas area with a LCC in use that can tell use more about quality.
QUESTION 1- Anyone using it now that can report (not in a NDA)

QUESTION 2- I think there used to be an uplink report somewhere that listed the OTA mappings for the tuners, any one have that so I can check it and watch for my city? Rumor has it a local channel dispute is coming soon for one of my channel.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

1. No one has come forward so far on any of the major forums

2. Check Gary's Transponder Maps thread in the tips and resources forum


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## DirectMan (Jul 15, 2007)

This is the supermarket mailer that D* has sent in the Vegas area.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DirectMan said:


> This is the supermarket mailer that D* has sent in the Vegas area.


Interesting fine print ... they are charging $3 less for the "no local channels" versions of the packages then adding a $7 credit for the LCC.
(The LCC offer in the mailer ends 12/31/18 for Las Vegas residents in eligible zip codes.)


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## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

My understanding from Executive retention is come Jan 1st there will be all new promotions and pricing. 
May not have free NFL package advertised but still offered if asked for AND it may also have the price increases factored in.
They simply do not know yet as marketing does not tell them what is next.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

scottchez said:


> The has to be someone in the Salt Lake or Vegas area with a LCC in use that can tell use more about quality.


Why would you think that? I think you greatly overestimate the number of people who frequent these forums. The number of regular posters is tiny compared to the number of customers, so the odds of any regular poster being from the two DMAs eligible for the LCC are pretty small. I'm sure there are some registered users who are, but most people only post when they have problems/questions, and that's it.

In all the threads about the LCC, not once has anyone from either of those DMAs posted - not only do we not have anyone with an LCC who could report back, as far as I'm aware we don't have anyone who is even eligible to get one. Maybe the Directv forums on AT&T would have someone, that's likely to see more people since it would be the first destination for customers looking for online forum help.


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## DirectMan (Jul 15, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Why would you think that? I think you greatly overestimate the number of people who frequent these forums. The number of regular posters is tiny compared to the number of customers, so the odds of any regular poster being from the two DMAs eligible for the LCC are pretty small. I'm sure there are some registered users who are, but most people only post when they have problems/questions, and that's it.
> 
> In all the threads about the LCC, not once has anyone from either of those DMAs posted - not only do we not have anyone with an LCC who could report back, as far as I'm aware we don't have anyone who is even eligible to get one. Maybe the Directv forums on AT&T would have someone, that's likely to see more people since it would be the first destination for customers looking for online forum help.


My friend who lives in Vegas gave me the mailer and asked me about it. He has downgraded to the Select plan and actually would be a good candidate for a streaming option as he doesn't watch sports. I explained the LCC system to him. He would be able to use the thin inside antenna D* provides with the dongle as he is only 5 miles from the broadcast antenna farm. He might call them in the next month to see if the LCC $10 off offer applies to existing customers.


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