# Can a Home Owners Association............?



## bennej (Sep 13, 2002)

Can a Home Owners Association limit the amount of dishes you can install. I have DishNetwork and need to install a 2nd dish to receive HD.

Thnx,
John


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Hi bennej and welcome to DBSTalk :hi:

You can read the actual FCC ruling here.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

I think you will be okay with 2 Dishes.


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## cnsf (Jun 6, 2002)

They can tell you where to put it as long as you can get a signal, but they can't prevent it.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Bennej, put that 2nd dish up and don't worry about it. Screw the HOA. If they still object, they'll have to file a petition with the FCC and win before they can make you take it down. This will take a long time. If you are in compliance with SHVIA re placement, etc, you will win and there is nothing your disagreeable neighbors can do about it. Then you can brag about the superior HD PQ you get with your 2nd dish. Then invite a few of the neighbors over so you can gloat as their eyes pop out.


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## ERSanders (Apr 24, 2002)

Bennej, when I was the VP of our HOA we had a regional meeting with, among others, a HOA specialist lawyer. I asked him the specific question of "Can an HOA limit the number of dishes that a homeowner can put on his/her property under the FCC ruling?" His answer was a clear "NO". 

I might add that the same regional organization had previously propagated a draft of generic HOA Rules & Regulations which tried to limit the resident to ONE dish. This is clearly WRONG (per the lawyer), but they may get "away" with it if the homeowner is not smarter.

If you want the guy's name & contact info...shoot me an e-mail and I will try to find it in my notes.

When we reworded our R & R's we used the following wording: "The Homeowners Association, by law, conforms to the FCC Regulations regarding satellite dishes. A current copy of the law is available from the Property Manager or the President of the Board. Notification to the Board by variance request and a Town permit are required for any homeowner wishing to install or arrange the installation of a satellite dish. No outside antennas, other than dishes, are allowed." (note: the Town requires the permit only to assure conformance to the NEC; specifically in the area of grounding...which is an ongoing topic of debate on this and other boards.)


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

And your R&R's are NOT in complinace - if you are not in an historic district, you can't restrict OTA antennas either.

Ham Radio antennas , however, don't enjoy the protection that TV reception devices do.


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## bennej (Sep 13, 2002)

I read the FCC and it never mentioned the amount of dishes nor did my home owners association book. They (HOA) never said a word about the first but I wanted to be 'safe' with 2....HD here I come!!!


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## ERSanders (Apr 24, 2002)

Scooper, thanks. I just sent an e-mail to the current board with the link for update.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

In my neighborhood the (in a historic district) we aren't' able to have dishes or antenna VISIBLE from the street or other houses. So mine is below the wall and only visible from our back yard. Hey as long as no one sees it who cares! Good luck. :goodjob:


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## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

...and any good installer , regardless if there's a homeowners assc. involved or not, should go out of their way to install the dish where it is the least obvious with the strongest signal possible-too many get lazy and in a hurry and just slap it on the top of the roof...


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jrjcd _
> *...and any good installer , regardless if there's a homeowners assc. involved or not, should go out of their way to install the dish where it is the least obvious with the strongest signal possible-too many get lazy and in a hurry and just slap it on the top of the roof... *


Thats the best point I have heard here in a while! :righton:


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## Richssat (Jul 2, 2002)

Try doing it for a living.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jrjcd _
> *...and any good installer , regardless if there's a homeowners assc. involved or not, should go out of their way to install the dish where it is the least obvious with the strongest signal possible-too many get lazy and in a hurry and just slap it on the top of the roof... *





> _Originally posted by Richssat _
> *Try doing it for a living.*


Well, as much as I hate HOA's being stupid about things, installers sometimes casue the problems HOA's try to avoid. My 2 year old neighborhood has an HOA that did not try to ban dishes but there are houses that have the dishes right out front on the roof of the garage. Of the 5 or 6 that I can think on all but one of these the dishes can be mounted on the rear of the house and get a perfectly good signal and the roof there is only 3 feet higher than the current location. Yes, the dish does point over the peak of the roof but the angle here in NC is well more than high enough to shoot over the roof and any good installer should know that.


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## Richssat (Jul 2, 2002)

I'ts not my job to tell customers where the dish should be placed for asthetic reasons. I make suggestions based on where it will work. I start with the easiest for me (within reason) and work my way up to explaining a full custom installation. I make it a point to never install a dish on the front of a house or before the fenceline in the side yard unless their is no other option. Many customers just want simple, easy, fast and most important FREE.


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## mattb (Apr 29, 2002)

Personally I like the look of dishes =) Some would disagree though, Good luck!


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## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

i've "tried doing it for a living" since 1997.... 

and i find that, if at all possible, the customer is happiest when the dish is in the least obvious location-however, it DOES take time and paitience....

(psst: matt-most women don't like the way a sat dish looks on their home and prefer that it would be in the least conspicuous place possible-to be honest, i would rather face down ten HOAs rather than one unhappy wife!!!)


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## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

WHOA!!!!it's not your yob to start out trying to find the best place to put the dish asthetically???!!!???!!!you need to think this one thru again, as THAT'S part of GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE and can EASILY be done in most cases without resorting to it being a custom job....

to be honest, i'm just a little flabbergasted that any good installer would even say something like that...


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## Richssat (Jul 2, 2002)

Sorry, I see no advantage in making my job harder for me for no additional money. As an tech you should know what is going on with the industry. Retailers tell the customers that everything even remotely related to a dbs system install will be gleefully done by the installer for free as part of a basic install. Fulfillment companies are cutting compensation left and right and starting to dictate what we can charge customers for and how much we can charge. Companies somehow expect you to install 3-4 systems a day with some being an hours drive from one another. 

I do not try to dictate dish placement to customers, I offer suggestions based on performance, ease of maintenance and future upgrades. Unless there is some reason why it wouldn't work in the location of their choice the final say is up to the customer. 

I discuss
1. Free and easy
2. Free and a little more work for me
3. A few custom touches
4. Full blown custom (how I would install it on my own house).

Quite a few of my customers chose 1 or 4. For some people having a DBS system installed is a big step and something they will be keeping for the long term. They would prefer it to be integrated into their home as much as possible, not look like tacked on afterthought. #4 customers usually can't find their dish when I am done nor can they find any wiring. #1 customers could care less, as long as the system works properly, is installed for free and isn't going to cost them an arm and a leg down the road to upgrade. 

I do not see that as unethical, dishonest or lazy. It is not my job to save customers from themselves or do a beautiful install that doesn't work right. 

Jrjcd, you wouldn't happen to work for DNSC would you?

RR

Ps... My girlfriend likes my dish, she likes the dish on her place too. They bring good things to her like Lifetime, Oxygen,and W E (yuk) Each one of those skyward pointing little gray circles that I put up are my paycheck.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jrjcd _
> *to be honest, i'm just a little flabbergasted that any good installer would even say something like that... *


Thats the problem, some installer would rather do a poor job and make money than spend a couple of extra seconds to put the dish where no one can see it. I have to look at my neighbors dish even though its against the regulations in our historic district. He told me that since his installer put it there, it must be legal. Now our HOA must sue this guy to put it in the right spot. I have no love for installers who a lazy. :nono:


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Richssat _
> *I do not see that as unethical, dishonest or lazy. It is not my job to save customers from themselves or do a beautiful install that doesn't work right. *


Now that is a better attitude than you had before. It seemed to me that you were saying that you didn't want to take any effort or explain to the customer that it might be better if they hid the dish and spend a few extra dollars.


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## Richssat (Jul 2, 2002)

Ok, now I am getting a tad perturbed. A few extra seconds? If it only took a few extra seconds don't you think we would do it? It takes time to 
1. remove all the accumulated crap from the side of a customers house. (Wheelbarrows, garden sheds, non running cars) etc.
2. Carry a 75lb 28ft ladder into their yard
3. Erect said ladder to reach the gable end of a two story roof
4. Climb ladder wearing 30lbs of tools with dish and pole in hand while trailing wire. 
5. Install dish 30ft in the air, standing on top step of ladder while listening to customer quip about not falling in their yard
6. Pull off 100ft of cable 
7. Move ladder 3 ft, make sure ladder is secure, climb ladder, turn backwards over 20ft in the air to secure cable under facia board
8. Repeat step 5 20-30 times
9. Install ground block to facia board (again backwards 20+ft up)
10. Put connectors on wire
11. Run Ground wire to ground source (conveniently located on other side of house)
12. Run 20ft external drop of wire from facia down to outlet location (listening to customer quip about wire being straight)

Yup, just a few extra seconds. If you can do that in a few extra seconds then you should consider installing as a career.

I guess I am just lazy. I only work 12hrs a day 6 days a week. I am expected to do 2-4 dual installs a day, most days I throw 150 miles of driving into the mix just for a few laughs. 

I try very hard to keep the quality of my jobs up but everyone wants quantity and will only pay for quantity. If I can't keep the quantity up I get replaced with someone who can. 

I do not normally discuss what I make per job with customers but if someone is persistent I will tell them. When they find out they shake their head and say " I wouldn't even climb up that ladder for what they pay you". The scary part is they want to pay us less. 

Just to let you know. D* advertises it's standard install as a $199 value. I make less then 1/3 of that per job. I have to supply all of the materials used on each job, I am responsible for warranty work for 6 months, I have to pay for gas, tools, insurance, (auto and gen liability), certification ($200 every 2 years for a stupid plastic card that tells customers I am good at what I do), taxes, health insurance and any other costs associated with running a small business.

Not whining, just stating facts. I doubt any of you upper middle class to upper class folks care to know what goes on behind the scenes. You just know that since the guy at (insert big box retailer) told you that everything to do with your satellite system was free and that any request that you have is going to be handled by the installer for free. 

Lazy, no. Struggling to do a good job and make enough money to survive despite the tightening noose of the industry. Yes

Sorry if you disagree with or dislike what I have to say, but if you don't like the quality of your install then complain to the retailers, D* and E*. They are the ones who dictate what we get compensated for the free installs. 

Also, think about what you would do if these things happened to you at your job and what you would do to try to survive at your chosen profession.

RR


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

You forgot step 13, Ignore HOA rules to make an extra buck.


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## Richssat (Jul 2, 2002)

Honestly if I wasn't a DBS enthusiast and if I didn't care about my customers I wouldn't be spending my evening posting on this board. 

I hate hack install outfits, they cheapen the job that is done and they are the ones who lowball contracts and drive prices down. Some of these guys are paying their techs $30 an install. One can only imagine the quality of work (and people who do it) that you get for $30. I have to cut to the bare bones (cheaper materials, minimizing cable usage, generally cutting out all but the bare necessities to compete with this vermon and make ends meet. If I could make the living that I did 4 years ago when I first started as a tech this mini flame session wouldn't have ever happened.

I would much rather spend my days doing custom work. I like doing it, I have the tools and knowledge to get the jobs done and I love the reactions from customers when they see the finished product (or should I say not see it). 

The members of this board (and other DBS boards) are the 1% who take more then a passing interest in the function, features and set up of their DBS systems. I run into enthusiasts once and a while in the field and I love dealing with them. As for the other 99%, they just want free, they want it done on their lunch hour and they don't give a rats a** what else happens. 

Didn't want to lose any respect amongst my piers (fellow techs and enthusiasts) but that is what has to be done.

RR


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Look I understand your point, its very hard to make money doing "free installs" for DirecTV and Dish. But understand the frustration when someone looks out his back window to a dish that isn't his. Maybe the customer told the installer to put it there, but the installer who came to do my house know I was in a historic district and figured out how to install it without being seen from other houses, he also figured out how to do it without charging me. Now I did have my house wired for DBS/Cable so he didn't have to run cables inside, but the point is for every good installer, there are hundreds of poor, lazy ones. Just my observation.


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## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

y'know, this borders on the "if you can't stand the heat" arguement(almost)....

regardless what you say, it DOESN'T take that much more time and /or effort to do a quality job with the proper signal strength in a location that makes the customer happiest if possible(we ALL know that installers run into placement limitations all the time)-but since you have to haul ALL that euipment out ANYWAY, you might as well go the extra mile and make the customer happy AND satisfied as much as possible-heck, DNSC is the worst about doing rack 'em and stack 'em jobs and unfortunately, they seem to be the future of satellite installation if charlie gets his total wet dream in place...


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## Richssat (Jul 2, 2002)

DNSC is a horror story as are the D* HSP (home service providers). Outfits like that are the reason that quality minded custom installers have to stoop to these levels to get contracts. I wind up cleaning up a lot of DNSC and HSP jobs and or removing one companies system to install anothers because it either never worked right or the install looked like garbage. If it wasn't for them and the $30 station wagon hacks with their 6 ft ladders I would be never having this discussion. 

Jack, you know that we run into placement limitations all the time, you know what constitutes a basic install and you as a fellow tech know what we can and cannot do. The problem is most customers don't. They have no concept of how the system works and what it's limitations are. I don't doubt you and I could spend an afternoon swapping war stories about crazy, humorous or bizarre customer requests. 

I can stand the heat, but I have to do what it takes to make my scheduling deadlines. If someone says they don't care where I put the dish then I put it where it is going to work well and not present any future problems (tree growth, ease of upgrade etc). 

To reiterate, I will NEVER put a dish on the front of someones house, near the front door or in front of the fence line of the side of the house unless there is no other option. Quite often they go on the back or side of the garage roof. That allows access to the cable prewire. If the wire is the proper type and in good condition this is the ideal because the wiring is already running to their existing TV outlets and there is a handy ground source. Most of the time the roof pitch on the garage masks the dish from the front and makes it invisible from the street and the majority of the neighbors. Personally I think this is a better option then spidering the house with wire or doing a two story drop. 

It also allows customers easy upgrades in the future. Just plug the two feed lines from the dish into the multiswitch, connect the prewire line going to whatever room they want satellite in and install the RX. Tuck the multiswitch into the demark box and you are all set. That way customers can upgrade their own systems if they so desire instead of spending big $ to have a tech out to do it. 

Most of the houses in my area are newer two story tracts. They have spanish tile rooves that you can't walk on. Inverted facia boards or styrofoam crown moldings and or gutters blocking most mounting points. They are so close together that you can't even ladder up to the roof from the side safely. A lot of times it is hard to find a spot anywhere on the house to put a dish, much less a hidden mounting location and a good way to conceal wiring.

If someone lives in a historic district, a neighborhood where HOA rules are in place (I explain OTARD to customers but I don't flaunt it) or even has an opinion as to where they want the dish placed then I do everything I can to accommodate them within reason. 

Anyway, thats my story and I am sticking to it. If you two feel the need to flame me for it so be it. I do my job correctly and in as clean a way as humanly possible without turning each job into a day long project. I take pride in my work and as a result I get almost no call backs or complaints. I take home a lot of tips from grateful customers. I get a lot of referral work and upgrades based on the quality work that I do. In 4 years in the business I have NEVER been called back to relocate a dish due to HOA complaints or customer dissatisfaction. 

Guess I must be doing something right

RR


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## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

well, i WOULD put the dish right above the front door of charlie's ranch if the front door faced southwest...hehehe


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## Richssat (Jul 2, 2002)

Above the front door? I would put it ON his front door and stop by every night to play ring and run. = )

RR


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## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

don't forget to leave the little surprise paper sack also...lol


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Rich, I'm a technically oriented consumer who appreciates a job well done. Fortunately, my initial install was done by a tech with similar values. He said he would come back the next day to run the ground.

The day after the install, the owner. 'Al', came by to check on the job his employee had performed, and noting the system had not been grounded, went out to his truck to get a 4' ground rod and wire and did the job himself. I handed him an envelope with a $20 cash tip for 'Brian', the installer. 

That was over two years ago.


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## Richssat (Jul 2, 2002)

Nick,
Ya got lucky. There are too many $30 station wagon hacks out there. If more customers would speak their mind about the quality of the jobs perhaps it would make the hacks go away and restore installer compensation to a reasonable level. 
But the members of this board and others make up such a small percentage of DBS customers that you are not the ones that are catered to. It is the assembly line people that make the DBS companies the most money. The number of people who complain about the $30 hack and even the ones who cancel their service are still at an acceptable level to the providers. I have a feeling they will continue to cut installer compensation until the cancelations and complaints stemming from poor quality installations start to cut into their bottom line. Then they might do something about it. 

BTW Nick, when a customer gives me a tip it makes me feel really good about the job that I just completed. I remember customers like that and if they ever need something down the road I am there for them. 

RR


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