# DTV Scam!!!



## drf23 (Dec 15, 2008)

I had my Directv tivo unit (r10) crash and i ordered a new unit. The R16-500 came in the mail this weekend, and i called DTV to turn the unit on.

I checked my account online today and noticed that i had the HD access added to my account. I also see that is labled as an HD-DVR (incorrectly).

I called up DTV and they told me that they cant remove the 9.99 HD Access since i have an HD DVR. It took me 2 hours to convice them that this was not an HD DVR but mislabled on their system. They were only able to credit me 12 months.

Still, why cant someone purchase an HD-DVR, not have an HD TV and not be charged for HD Access? SCAM!


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

drf23 said:


> Still, why cant someone purchase an HD-DVR, not have an HD TV and not be charged for HD Access? SCAM!


Because part of the cost (to DirecTV) of the HD DVR is subsidized by the HD access fee.

If you don't want to pay for HD access then don't get an HD receiver.


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## drf23 (Dec 15, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> Because part of the cost (to DirecTV) of the HD DVR is subsidized by the HD access fee.
> 
> If you don't want to pay for HD access then don't get an HD receiver.


I was actually "grandfathered" into not paying. A year ago, i purchased the unit with the intention of getting an HD TV. For whatever reason, I didnt. Now my TIVO unit breaks, I order a new one, they ship it, I call to activate it and voila....charged HD Access. They cant "re-grandfather me in".

So because their unit broke and i ordered a new one i am screwed?
Why should I now swap out the unit that all the recorded shows?
Also, the cost is subsidized, but i purchased the unit over a year ago....!!


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

drf23 said:


> I was actually "grandfathered" into not paying. A year ago, i purchased the unit with the intention of getting an HD TV. For whatever reason, I didnt. Now my TIVO unit breaks, I order a new one, they ship it, I call to activate it and voila....charged HD Access. They cant "re-grandfather me in".
> 
> So because their unit broke and i ordered a new one i am screwed?
> Why should I now swap out the unit that all the recorded shows?
> Also, the cost is subsidized, but i purchased the unit over a year ago....!!


From your first post it sounds like your issue has been resolved, albeit temporarily. I would press the issue with them to have the model number changed on your account permanently or else you'll face this again in 12 months.

Your other question (which is what I was answering) was "why cant someone purchase an HD-DVR, not have an HD TV and not be charged for HD Access?" and my answer remains the same: Why would you want an HD receiver if you don't have an HD TV?


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## drf23 (Dec 15, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> From your first post it sounds like your issue has been resolved, albeit temporarily. I would press the issue with them to have the model number changed on your account permanently or else you'll face this again in 12 months.
> 
> Your other question (which is what I was answering) was "why cant someone purchase an HD-DVR, not have an HD TV and not be charged for HD Access?" and my answer remains the same: Why would you want an HD receiver if you don't have an HD TV?


The features of on demand, directv2pc and others are only available within the HD receiver (for example).


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## dorfd1 (Jul 16, 2008)

My government teacher from school had an hd dvr installed by mistake but only want sd dvr so directv turned off hd access for her. the intaller did not want to do a swap.

the ironic thing is she has it hooked up to an hd tv.

I thought the hd access fee paid for the license to use mpeg4.


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## drf23 (Dec 15, 2008)

That would be nice and is what I have. But since my upstairs SD unit broke, and the packaging was based off this unit (mirrored), they had to "reinstall" my packaging thus bringing up HD access of my HD DVR downstairs.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

drf23 said:


> The features of on demand, directv2pc and others are only available within the HD receiver (for example).


Fair enough.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

drf23 said:


> That would be nice and is what I have. But since my upstairs SD unit broke, and the packaging was based off this unit (mirrored), they had to "reinstall" my packaging thus bringing up HD access of my HD DVR downstairs.


So you do have an HD DVR on your account?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Actually, the R22 SD DVR has all the same features and does not require HD access. It seems it's an excellent choice for you.


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> Because part of the cost (to DirecTV) of the HD DVR is subsidized by the HD access fee.
> 
> If you don't want to pay for HD access then don't get an HD receiver.


Rubbish. The R22 is a carbon copy of an HR21 and I'm sure it costs DirecTV the exact same amount. That extra hundred bucks they charge for the HD DVR is what helps subsidize their HD costs.

I'm sure it won't be long before EVERYONE gets the same exact DVR (or single room receiver) whether they want HD or not. The hundred bucks will just be charged to "upgrade" the box to HD via an over-the-air command.


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually, the R22 SD DVR has all the same features and does not require HD access. It seems it's an excellent choice for you.


And now you (supposedly) can even get an AM21 over-the-air tuner for the R22 and it works even if you don't have HD access on your account! I'm seriously considering it now that there are TWO local digital subchannels with worthwhile programming that is not available via the DirecTV dish.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

ThomasM said:


> Rubbish. The R22 is a carbon copy of an HR21 and I'm sure it costs DirecTV the exact same amount. That extra hundred bucks they charge for the HD DVR is what helps subsidize their HD costs.
> 
> I'm sure it won't be long before EVERYONE gets the same exact DVR (or single room receiver) whether they want HD or not. The hundred bucks will just be charged to "upgrade" the box to HD via an over-the-air command.


Apparently we're going to have to disagree. These boxes cost over $200 to make. Most people are getting them for free or severely discounted. You're telling me that part of the way they make it back up isn't with the HD Access fee? I'm not saying that it's a dollar for dollar accounting but it's certainly _one way_ they recoup costs of handing out these receivers like candy lately.


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## drf23 (Dec 15, 2008)

I do, but have had it for over a year with no issue. at this point, it has all my recorded shows.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

drf23 said:


> I do, but have had it for over a year with no issue. at this point, it has all my recorded shows.


So I guess I'm confused... why did you tell the CSR that you don't have an HD DVR on your account when you do? It seems that swapping the other receiver triggered their system to pick up on their year-long oversight. I'm not saying you're not entitled to have this receiver because it's certainly your choice, but why keep it if you don't want to pay the HD Access fee? Watch your recorded shows and then return it for an R22 as Stuart suggested and you'll have everything you want.


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## sdicomp (Sep 12, 2006)

drf23 said:


> I do, but have had it for over a year with no issue. at this point, it has all my recorded shows.


I'm suprised you got by with it for this long! If you have an HDDVR, you are supposed to be required to pay HD access fee.


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> Apparently we're going to have to disagree. These boxes cost over $200 to make. Most people are getting them for free or severely discounted. You're telling me that part of the way they make it back up isn't with the HD Access fee? I'm not saying that it's a dollar for dollar accounting but it's certainly _one way_ they recoup costs of handing out these receivers like candy lately.


You missed my point.

For all intents and purposes, the R22 (SD DVR) and the HR21 (HD DVR) are identical boxes. One has HD turned off in the software. So both boxes cost DirecTV the same amount of money (to manufacture).

The HD Access fee pays for the NETWORK INFRASTRUCTURE and PROGRAMMING, not the set top box since SD customers get the exact same box with a different model number.

The ONLY reason at the present that I can think of for wanting an actual HR21 as opposed to an R22 if you do not have an HDTV (like me) is that many of the user options *that have nothing to do with HD* are disabled on the R22.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

ThomasM said:


> You missed my point.
> 
> For all intents and purposes, the R22 (SD DVR) and the HR21 (HD DVR) are identical boxes. One has HD turned off in the software. So both boxes cost DirecTV the same amount of money (to manufacture).
> 
> ...


Yes, I see your point clearly: they are the same box that cost the same amount to make. That's not my point though: they have to recoup the cost of _all_ of these boxes. The HD access fee is one such way, even if it's not charged congruently. It's just a fee that adds to the bottom line. They stick a moniker on it to legitimize it, like any other company does with their fees. Do you think the little ketchup packets at McDonalds are truly free? The cost of the condiments is subsidized by the cost of the burgers.


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> Yes, I see your point clearly: they are the same box that cost the same amount to make. That's not my point though: they have to recoup the cost of _all_ of these boxes. The HD access fee is one such way, even if it's not charged congruently. It's just a fee that adds to the bottom line. They stick a moniker on it to legitimize it, like any other company does with their fees. Do you think the little ketchup packets at McDonalds are truly free? The cost of the condiments is subsidized by the cost of the burgers.


Right but I take several ketchup packets for my French Fries too. I wonder if their cost is subsidized in the price of the fries or just the burgers?


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

ThomasM said:


> Right but I take several ketchup packets for my French Fries too. I wonder if their cost is subsidized in the price of the fries or just the burgers?


:lol: But you see what I'm getting at...


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

sdicomp said:


> I'm suprised you got by with it for this long! If you have an HDDVR, you are supposed to be required to pay HD access fee.


I am pretty sure there is an X by it online and you can cancel HD Access anytime you want on your own account.


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

If you have an HD receiver you have to have HD Access on your acct...


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

Justin23 said:


> If you have an HD receiver you have to have HD Access on your acct...


This is infact not true. My parents are new subs and have HD receivers (not DVRS) because or locals switched to MPEG4 and they do not have to pay HD access. The installer that was here on Sat. upgrading my dish said that in my local market all new installs get HD receivers or DVRs wether or not they get HD access.


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

I was speaking for the example given above, not the small percentage of customers you described. From the D* website:

"If you cease to be DIRECTV's customer for any reason (whether voluntarily or involuntarily) or *if you decide to disconnect/cancel/terminate your DVR service or HD Access fee (if you are leasing a DVR or HD Receiver), you must call DIRECTV within seven (7) days after the termination of your DIRECTV programming services, DVR service or HD Access fee*, as applicable, to (i) make arrangements for DIRECTV to pick up all your DIRECTV equipment; or (ii) obtain information from DIRECTV necessary to arrange for a ground or air freight service to pick up and deliver all of your DIRECTV equipment to DIRECTV"

J


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

dodge boy said:


> This is infact not true. My parents are new subs and have HD receivers (not DVRS) because or locals switched to MPEG4 and they do not have to pay HD access. The installer that was here on Sat. upgrading my dish said that in my local market all new installs get HD receivers or DVRs wether or not they get HD access.


That's correct, it is the exception. Those people who have SD locals that come from 99/103 need a receiver that will receive those satellites and none of the current SD receivers will do that. So they get "HD" receivers with only an SD subscription.
Everyone else is supposed to pay for HD access if they have an HD receiver.


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

Any idea what the percentage is of subscribers that need the HD receiver for SD locals?

J


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## 50+ (May 1, 2008)

texasbrit said:


> That's correct, it is the exception. Those people who have SD locals that come from 99/103 need a receiver that will receive those satellites and none of the current SD receivers will do that. So they get "HD" receivers with only an SD subscription.
> Everyone else is supposed to pay for HD access if they have an HD receiver.


This explaines a situation that happend to me recently. I needed to fix my 72.5 sidecar dish. I called d*tv the CsR I spoke to wanted to send out a tech to fix it. I told him I was perfectly capable of fixing it and that I was under the impression that 72.5 was going away and I did not want to spend any money fixing it if this was true. I was sent to tech support. I explained my situation and told her the only reason I needed the sidecar was for my locals on my 2 SD DVRs and 1 SDrcver. I have HD access already for other rcvers. She had to talk to a sup. When she came back she confirmed 72.5 will be going away and my SD rcvers will need to be replaced. She then proceeded to tell me they will replace my 3 SD rcvers with HD ones. I was extremely happy.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

texasbrit said:


> That's correct, it is the exception. Those people who have SD locals that come from 99/103 need a receiver that will receive those satellites and none of the current SD receivers will do that. So they get "HD" receivers with only an SD subscription.
> Everyone else is supposed to pay for HD access if they have an HD receiver.


Im not saying its not true buy why do they make it where you can canel the HD access online then?


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

drf23 said:


> I had my Directv tivo unit (r10) crash and i ordered a new unit. The R16-500 came in the mail this weekend, and i called DTV to turn the unit on.
> 
> I checked my account online today and noticed that i had the HD access added to my account. I also see that is labled as an HD-DVR (incorrectly).
> 
> ...


I've read all the thread... and I must be missing something... If you no longer have an HR10, and your new dvr is a r16-500 then you don't have any hd equipment. Get them to fix the system to say you don't have any hd equipment, and they will get rid of the fee...

And if you want on demand, etc.. get an r22....problems solved..

And I am unaware of them ever grandfathering anyone into HD access for free for life.... How did you pull that off? 12 months ago? Sounds like they gave you 12 months free, just like they are offering again...


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## Terry K (Sep 13, 2006)

AK and HI also get MPEG4 boxes because locals are only offered that way in SD


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> I've read all the thread... and I must be missing something... If you no longer have an HR10, and your new dvr is a r16-500 then you don't have any hd equipment. Get them to fix the system to say you don't have any hd equipment, and they will get rid of the fee...
> 
> And if you want on demand, etc.. get an r22....problems solved..
> 
> And I am unaware of them ever grandfathering anyone into HD access for free for life.... How did you pull that off? 12 months ago? Sounds like they gave you 12 months free, just like they are offering again...


They are offering HD free acess for a year?


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## drf23 (Dec 15, 2008)

no free HD. They allowed me to keep the HDDVR and turned off HD access fee. I didnt get HD since I had no HD TV.

BTW - the "X" is avail online, but if clicked, it tells you to call customer service.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Justin23 said:


> Any idea what the percentage is of subscribers that need the HD receiver for SD locals?
> 
> J


Zero. That's what the R22 SD DVR is for, it's an MPEG4 SD receiver/DVR.


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## bbanks69 (Oct 19, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Zero. That's what the R22 SD DVR is for, it's an MPEG4 SD receiver/DVR.


After reading this thread, i have learned exactly what I need, the r22 SD DVR. I am interested in the video on demand and also networking. I do not have a HD TV and of course D*TV told me i would have to pay for the Hd service if i got the HD units.

Now the million dollar question, HOW can i get the R22 SD DVR box?


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

bbanks69 said:


> Now the million dollar question, HOW can i get the R22 SD DVR box?


http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=R22

It's also possible that you can find one at other retailers, this is just the first one that appeared in my google search.


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## drf23 (Dec 15, 2008)

say-what said:


> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=R22
> 
> It's also possible that you can find one at other retailers, this is just the first one that appeared in my google search.


BB has it for 99 bux.
Why did DTV ship me the crappy R16 and not the R22?


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

I have the R22-200. NO HD! No HD tvs in my home. I love the extended HDD space and VOD. I'd recommend that one if you want the HR features WITHOUT HD ACCESS.


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## bbanks69 (Oct 19, 2007)

xmguy said:


> I have the R22-200. NO HD! No HD tvs in my home. I love the extended HDD space and VOD. I'd recommend that one if you want the HR features WITHOUT HD ACCESS.


I am so glad for every ones help, I am so into this site


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## drf23 (Dec 15, 2008)

bbanks69 said:


> I am so glad for every ones help, I am so into this site


It is great and the people are really helpful.

I guess when DTV FINALLY calls me I will ask them to replace the R16 I have with the R22. Seems fair for all the problems i have had.


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

Go for it. Good luck


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

ThomasM said:


> And now you (supposedly) can even get an AM21 over-the-air tuner for the R22 and it works even if you don't have HD access on your account! I'm seriously considering it now that there are TWO local digital subchannels with worthwhile programming that is not available via the DirecTV dish.


And the PQ off the antenna is superior to DirecTv's.... (Trust me) 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=128527&highlight=am21+r22


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

drf23 said:


> BB has it for 99 bux.
> Why did DTV ship me the crappy R16 and not the R22?


Probably cause they still have a warehouse full of them.



drf23 said:


> It is great and the people are really helpful.
> 
> I guess when DTV FINALLY calls me I will ask them to replace the R16 I have with the R22. Seems fair for all the problems i have had.


Good luck but know they cannot gaurantee a specific model. They ship whatever class you order (SD, SDDVR, HD, HDDVR) and the model is just determined by what they have in the warehouse.

This has been discussed many times in regards to people wanting specific models of the HD-DVRs as well (HR20 vs 21 vs 22).


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

dodge boy said:


> And the PQ off the antenna is superior to DirecTv's.... (Trust me)


If you get an AM21 can you watch the locals OTA with it *even if DirecTV carries them on the satellite?*


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## miketorse (Jul 30, 2008)

ThomasM said:


> If you get an AM21 can you watch the locals OTA with it *even if DirecTV carries them on the satellite?*


Yes. I do.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

ThomasM said:


> If you get an AM21 can you watch the locals OTA with it *even if DirecTV carries them on the satellite?*


Yes, it just adds OTA to the guide that will be right next to the DirecTV channels.


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

Grentz said:


> Yes, it just adds OTA to the guide that will be right next to the DirecTV channels.


Cool! All of the Milwaukee locals are on the satellite but I'm mulling paying $50 bux for an AM21 so I can record the digital subchannels on the OTA's. There are now TWO of them airing old TV shows and movies which, of course, will probably never be carried by DirecTV. I keep reaching for the remote to press the SKIP button while watching the subchannels when a commercial comes on but then I remember I'm watching OTA in real time.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

dodge boy said:


> And the PQ off the antenna is superior to DirecTv's.... (Trust me)
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=128527&highlight=am21+r22


In my area, I find D*'s picture quality to be identical to OTA. I know I've mentioned this before, but I will again - during the Olympics, I was seeing a lot of MPEG compression blockiness int he water during the swimming events. I switched over to OTA (using my TV's tuner to eliminate any tuner issues in the HR20) and it was identical. I kept flipping back and forth and I could not tell a difference. Often, when there are glitches in the picture on my locals, I will switch to OTA to see if it's a problem with D* or the LIL, and 99% of the time, it;s the LIL - and I just can't see a difference in PQ. Of course this can vary based on your area and how D* receives the LIL's broadcast.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

ThomasM said:


> Cool! All of the Milwaukee locals are on the satellite but I'm mulling paying $50 bux for an AM21 so I can record the digital subchannels on the OTA's. There are now TWO of them airing old TV shows and movies which, of course, will probably never be carried by DirecTV. I keep reaching for the remote to press the SKIP button while watching the subchannels when a commercial comes on but then I remember I'm watching OTA in real time.


We don't have anything terribly interesting on our sub channels, but D* does not carry our CW local in HD. Since they carry a lot of college football, The CW in HD is a must for me. I have the antenna connected directly to my HR20 and my TV's tuner for maximum flexibility.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Grentz said:


> Good luck but know they cannot gaurantee a specific model. They ship whatever class you order (SD, SDDVR, HD, HDDVR) and the model is just determined by what they have in the warehouse.
> 
> This has been discussed many times in regards to people wanting specific models of the HD-DVRs as well (HR20 vs 21 vs 22).


They should be able to guarantee an R22 somehow. Otherwise, people who get their locals on the 99/103 sats would not have an option for an SD DVR. Of course they may only be able to guarantee an R22 in those areas.


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## cweave02 (Oct 12, 2007)

ThomasM said:


> Right but I take several ketchup packets for my French Fries too. I wonder if their cost is subsidized in the price of the fries or just the burgers?


No - in the sleeve that the fries come in. When you buy a drink, you arte paying for the cup, not the contents.


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