# Steve Jobs Slams Adobe Flash



## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

A very interesting read. :eek2:

_"Flash was created during the PC era - for PCs and mice. Flash is a successful business for Adobe, and we can understand why they want to push it beyond PCs. But the mobile era is about low power devices, touch interfaces and open web standards - all areas where Flash falls short.

The avalanche of media outlets offering their content for Apple's mobile devices demonstrates that Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content. And the 200,000 apps on Apple's App Store proves that Flash isn't necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games.

New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.

Steve Jobs
April, 2010"_


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

"Open Standards", "Low powered devices" is not how I would describe the iPhone, Steve.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

He would better off just comming out and saying the main reason why he doesn't want flash on the iDevices: Because developers would be able to write very elaborate applications, that we won't get money for and can't control the look and feel.


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## tgater (Jul 24, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> He would better off just comming out and saying the main reason why he doesn't want flash on the iDevices: Because developers would be able to write very elaborate applications, that we won't get money for and can't control the look and feel.


I think the key word is "Control". Heaven forbid if Steve didn't have control.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

This is also being discussed here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176321 and I said in that thread, Steve Jobs calling out someone else for being a "closed system" is the definition of irony.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Mr. Jobs has done this sort of thing before, killing older technologies before they're really ready to go. In 1999 he stopped selling Macs with floppy drives. While he was eventually right, the main impact for 3 or 4 years was everybody bought external floppy drives. 

I don't believe any of Mr. Jobs reasons, and Mr. Bonovich has a point... it would open up a lot of development that Apple couldn't control. But this is bigger than that. There's a decades-old feud between Apple and Adobe that supposedly goes back to an agreement where Adobe would release products for Mac first, in recognition of the seed money that Apple gave it to start. That's a very old tech rumor, but if it's true, the other part is that Mr. Jobs will never forgive Adobe for abandoning that policy. 

The software world moves faster than the hardware world, and I do think that HTML5 will supplant Flash pretty quickly as a result of this, but it's a shame that Mr. Jobs seems to see no value in supporting legacy environments like Java and Flash.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

If Flash brings its security issues over to handhelds, then I'm 100% in agreement with Steve Jobs. 

I'm not an Apple fanboy. 
I don't even own an ipod. But I do think he's spot on with many of his assertions about the many negative aspects of Flash, and I think he's also right about not allowing it onto Apple's devices.

As far as his control issues go, isn't that very thing what has driven Apple to the top in customer satisfaction and device reliability?
I like open standards, but you have to admit that Apple has done a fine job with quality and reputation by keeping certain doors closed and locked.


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

BubblePuppy said:


> "Open Standards", "Low powered devices" is not how I would describe the iPhone, Steve.


You nailed that one.

And I guess Jobs hasn't heard of Flash 10.1. While I typically don't keep up with what Adobe is doing with Flash, I have been paying a bit more attention since they announced a full-fledged version of Flash for Palm's webOS. (I'm a Palm Pre owner.)

While looking for more details on the CPU usage of Flash 10.1, I came across this article. I can't vouch for the accuracy of their tests but they show the new version of Flash to be much more efficient than those prior.

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...eat_flash_surprising_results_of_new_tests.php


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

Stuart Sweet said:


> ... but it's a shame that Mr. Jobs seems to see no value in supporting legacy environments like Java and Flash.


I don't see it that way at all.
There are platforms out there for people who want that. He's done well by keeping their new devices lean and clean.

Is it also a shame that you can't get a netbook with a built-in floppy drive?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Marlin Guy said:


> (...)
> As far as his control issues go, isn't that very thing what has driven Apple to the top in customer satisfaction and device reliability?
> I like open standards, but you have to admit that Apple has done a fine job with quality and reputation by keeping certain doors closed and locked.


Oh boy, that's an argument I don't think I even want to start. Let me just say that exerting total control over any environment is going to lead to more stability, but by discouraging diversity, it's also possibly that you'll discourage innovation.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Marlin Guy said:


> Is it also a shame that you can't get a netbook with a built-in floppy drive?


If it were 1999, the answer would be yes. In 1999 a lot of PCs could only boot from floppy or internal hard drives.

I question Mr. Jobs' timing, not the inevitable demise of the floppy. In 1999 there were no flash drives and not even a lot of CD-Rs. We were still trying to figure out what the successor to the floppy would be, and at that time it looked like the Zip drive, which was also unavailable internally on a Mac at that particular time (IIRC they started putting them in as an option in 2000.)


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## njblackberry (Dec 29, 2007)

I have an iPad, and love it. I am not a big fan of Apple for some of the reasons given earlier - they define closed architecture, and damn what the customers want.

Not having Flash is a huge problem. It will be many years before sites are updated to HTML5, and Apple is being arrogant (again) in thinking that they control the Internet and people's browsing habits.

I love the iPad, but the lack of Flash (and to a lesser degree Java) are a big problem for me.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

Stuart Sweet said:


> but by discouraging diversity, it's also possibly that you'll discourage innovation.


So far, that doesn't seem to be a problem with Mr. Jobs's products.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I question Mr. Jobs' timing, not the inevitable demise of the floppy. In 1999 there were no flash drives and not even a lot of CD-Rs. We were still trying to figure out what the successor to the floppy would be, and at that time it looked like the Zip drive, which was also unavailable internally on a Mac at that particular time (IIRC they started putting them in as an option in 2000.)


I think you just reinforced his whole point about why he's leaving Flash in the past and focusing on HTML5.
How is what he is doing any different?

If newer, leaner, cleaner, and more secure technologies can do everything that Flash does and more, then what exactly is the reasoning behind continuing to drag Flash along?

We have the USB drive. Lose the floppy and move on.... or buy a clunker that still has a floppy.

Steve Jobs and the consuming public have the options laid out before them. He's banking on a future without Flash. 
I have a feeling he's right, and I think there are plenty of consumers who will agree with him.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

How would open architecture work for DirecTV on their DVR's?

What Jobs is doing is maintaining product integrity.

There's a place for open and there's a place for closed.
Some users are better off not being able to tweak their devices but so much.
Trust me. I make a very good living fixing their "tweaks".


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Again, you're making 2010 arguments about 1999 hardware. Of course no one needs a floppy today. But there are still web sites out there that use Flash and this sort of iron-fisted approach to killing Flash doesn't really enhance the user experience when the mobile user needs to look at an older web site today. 

I think you missed the part where I agree, Flash will go away in favor of HTML5. But we're not there yet, and sometimes you need to be functional today, not wait for the world to catch up with one person's vision of how it should be. 

That's why I bought an external floppy in 1999, and that's why I wish there were Flash on the iPhone today.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Its quite obvious to me that most Apple mobile users don't care. Apple is still selling iPhones and iPads at an alarming rate. Apparently having a stable product with good support is more important than flash.

Personally, I think flash is a resource hog. It drains the battery on my Macbook faster than any other software. Besides, it seems like every site I visit that uses flash isn't important enough to visit in the first place.

I guess it all comes down to the same old standard of "vote with your wallet".


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

Stuart Sweet said:


> But there are still web sites out there that use Flash and this sort of iron-fisted approach to killing Flash doesn't really enhance the user experience when the mobile user needs to look at an older web site today.


I doubt this was overlooked by the people making the decision to exclude Flash from Apple's products. Nor was the decision made lightly.
As it stands today, the consumer has plenty of non-Apple choices, if they really must have their Flash.

But there will always be some websites that cling to these older technologies. You can't hold up the future in lieu of the stragglers of the past. If you do, you'll never move forward.

There are still people using floppies and VHS tapes.
That probably seems ridiculous in the minds of most, but it's true.

What seems equally ridiculous to me is that there are still people using spinning disks for their music and movies. I realize that I'm in the minority on that one, and probably will be for some time.

But we need people like Steve Jobs to keep things moving forward. One day in the not too distant future, Flash, CD's, DVD's, and blu-ray disks will all be equally obsolete.

He's just staying ahead of the game.
Again, a strategy which has served him quite well thus far.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

Chris Blount said:


> Its quite obvious to me that most Apple mobile users don't care.


BINGO!


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Marlin Guy said:


> He's just staying ahead of the game.
> Again, a strategy which has served him quite well thus far.


And I completely agree that results thus far have certainly borne that out. His approach will certainly drive HTML5 adoption which is a good thing for many reasons.

I will be buying my first iPhone this year (although I've bought and used Apple products for about 30 years now.) Ironically, it's not because it will or won't have support for Flash or Java. It's because it's a better platform for Outlook integration than anything else I've seen.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Marlin Guy said:


> One day in the not too distant future, Flash, CD's, DVD's, and blu-ray disks will all be equally obsolete.


They already are, and Steve didn't help there, either. DRM schemes and hardware lock-in were the method of his madness for quite some time, and you still can't do DRM-less video from the iTunes store.

Meanwhile I will use Flash on my computers to watch Hulu, watch Flash video on my Android and otherwise download DRM-free media to consume elsewhere.

I'd have less of a philosophical difference with Apple's products if they weren't a walled-garden closed ecosystem.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/sto...onomy.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

*Steve Jobs Leads Us to a New Economy*

_NEW YORK (TheStreet) -- As investors reposition their portfolios in a post-recessionary economy, it's important to understand that this economy is different. The primary growth driver is innovation. _

......

_Twitter and Facebook, who both provide a filtered set of information, will prosper. And of course you've got Apple(AAPL) and the leader of the revolution, Mr. Steve Jobs. The dramatic rise in Apple stock thus far in 2010 is sending a clear signal as to where economic growth is shifting._


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

I think Adobe should just pull CS5 from Macs, that would be friggin hilarious. Considering almost all the "designer types" that use Macs (the core business audience) NEED Photoshop. Stevie needs a reminder of this.

I dunno, I have a love hate relationship with flash. A lot of you speak from never using it and never seeing how it works from the developer side. I can honestly say it is a very neat and flexible platform that HTML5 does not compete with completely as of yet. There are a lot of skilled devs that know actionscript (flash's language) and the ways to work in flash. They are not just going to jump to HTML5 for no reason or overnight. Also a lot of the negative flash stuff comes from poorly written or bloated flash apps. You can make flash applications that are quite lightweight and simple that run silky smooth.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I think the folks at Adobe are too smart to do that, but it would be funny. I'm not looking forward to CS5 anyway.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Chris Blount said:


> Besides, it seems like every site I visit that uses flash isn't important enough to visit in the first place.
> 
> I guess it all comes down to the same old standard of "vote with your wallet".


Uh Chris, aren't some of the banner ads on THIS site using Flash???


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think the folks at Adobe are too smart to do that, but it would be funny. I'm not looking forward to CS5 anyway.


True, I would never expect them to do it as it would hurt Adobe a ton as well. But it would be hilarious to watch :lol:

Seriously, every Apple based business I have seen tends to be very heavily involved in Adobe software. Whether it be Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Premiere/After Effects, or InDesign. I think Steve tries to forget this at times when he is getting in pissy fits with Adobe.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

I don't remember where I read it and can't find the story right now but someone recently reported that Apple may be trying to develop a cheaper alternative to Adobe's Creative Suite, which is apparently Adobe's cash-cow. If that happens it will just add fuel to this fire.

BTW - Adobe announced today that Flash Player 10.1 will be released in June and Palm, Nokia, RIM and Android are all going to be running it, leaving the iPhone as the only major smartphone not containing flash support.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

As I said, that's not a coincidence that Apples run Adobe software. Adobe was started with seed money from Apple, and the Apple Laserwriter used Adobe Postscript as its language (back in 1985.) For about a decade, Windows was several months or even a whole version behind Mac in almost every Adobe product.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

bobukcat said:


> I don't remember where I read it and can't find the story right now but someone recently reported that Apple may be trying to develop a cheaper alternative to Adobe's Creative Suite, which is apparently Adobe's cash-cow. If that happens it will just add fuel to this fire.


On the other hand, Apple hasn't had a lot of success with this. Pages and Keynote may be favorites of Mr. Jobs' but they haven't helped Apple make a significant inroad in the business world. I'll tell you this... if there is going to be an Apple-branded creative program, it had darn well better support Photoshop PSD format or it's not going anywhere.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

I just see this as a Steve Jobs sales message... 

Flash has its audiences, and satisfy markets with its capabilities.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

"Slow, resource hog, and causes crashes" could also be used to describe iTunes running on an XP machine!


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

IMHO the best analysis of this situation I have read is in the PC World piece Apple v. Adobe: Something Just Doesn't Add Up. After a decent analysis the writer concludes:


> I'll give Jobs points for the Full Web, Security, and Touch points. The Battery Life argument, in my opinion is a draw--I could go either way. But, when it comes to the Open, and Platform Dependence arguments, I have to cry foul.


And then he does note at the end:


> It also seems suspicious given Apple's foray into mobile advertising with the iAd platform--competing directly with the fairly ubiquitous Flash-based ads.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

bobukcat said:


> Uh Chris, aren't some of the banner ads on THIS site using Flash???


Ads???


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

http://www.macworld.com/article/150960/2010/04/microsoft_flash_html5.html?lsrc=rss_main



> Microsoft has bought a first-class seat on the Flash Bashing Express with an official statement on its IEBlog. Apple's sometimes-friend, sometimes-foe echoed ideas that Apple CEO Steve Jobs expressed in Thursday's Thoughts on Flash essay and put its own stake in the ground for the future of Web technologies.
> 
> Dean Hachamovitch, Microsoft's General Manager of Internet Explorer, cut to the chase rather quickly, by stating "the future of the Web is HTML5." He also said that Microsoft has been "deeply engaged" in the HTML5 process with the W3C, the standards body that drafts the specifications for how HTML5 should work. The company's Internet Explorer 9, now in beta for Windows users, features HTML5 support. Hachamovitch says that while the W3C does not specify a video format for video embedded in HTML5 sites, Microsoft has joined Apple in supporting H.264, and H.264 alone.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

bobukcat said:


> Uh Chris, aren't some of the banner ads on THIS site using Flash???


I'm talking about sites that function only on flash. Basically, if you don't have flash, you can't use the site's main features.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Chris Blount said:


> I'm talking about sites that function only on flash. Basically, if you don't have flash, you can't use the site's main features.


I know, I just couldn't help myself!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Marlin Guy said:


> So far, that doesn't seem to be a problem with Mr. Jobs's products.


Imagine where we could be if Amiga, NeXT or Be had been better accepted.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

DCSholtis said:


> http://www.macworld.com/article/150960/2010/04/microsoft_flash_html5.html?lsrc=rss_main


This coming from the organization that is trying to promote Silverlight as a development platform?!?!?!?!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Personally... I think it is fine for Apple to do/say what they are doing... and to prevent the end-around of someone using Flash instead of the intended iPhone SDK to develop/submit apps to iTunes.

Adobe is the one who looks odd here... when they talk about "closed-system" for Apple... because while true, it is no more or less true than Adobe being the only company writing a Flash-development app and Adobe being the only company controlling what is and isn't Flash.

Also of note how there have been 64-bit operating systems for a very long time now, and still no 64-bit Flash plug-in for browsers. Even Adobe isn't backing their own closed-system properly for Windows or Mac users.

I don't really see why Apple has to support Flash on the iPhone at all, unless customers demand it and start running away if Apple doesn't... and I tend to agree with what Chris said, the evidence thus far seems to support that most Apple customers don't really care.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Stewart, Flash is not closed like the iPhone though. You can make whatever you want in it without approval from anyone. Yes the Dev tools cost some money, but that is the same with other platforms as well (Visual Studio?, Mac Dev Program?). The iPhone is closed in that NOTHING can go onto the iPhone (officially) without going through Apple's approval process. 

Huge difference.

I don't think Apple has any reason that they "have to" support flash. It just would be wise if they want to declare their devices as the best web surfers, etc. considering a lot of the web is flash whether you love it or hate it.

and honestly Silverlight is a better flash replacement than HTML5 IMO at this point as it is much more similar in how it can be developed for and used. Silverlight actually is an excellent platform, it just still requires plugins like flash.


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## Hansen (Jan 1, 2006)

Here's an interesting article that ties the Flash release to the iPhone scandal. It suggests, in part, that the release of Job's essay and position on Flash is really an attempt to distract folks from the bad publicity caused to Apple over it's handling of the 4th gen iPhone leak/loss. http://www.newsweek.com/id/237186


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Grentz said:


> Stewart, Flash is not closed like the iPhone though. You can make whatever you want in it without approval from anyone. Yes the Dev tools cost some money, but that is the same with other platforms as well (Visual Studio?, Mac Dev Program?). The iPhone is closed in that NOTHING can go onto the iPhone (officially) without going through Apple's approval process.


To me they are pretty much the same thing.

Visual Studio is used to develop computer programs on the PC. But there are other programs you can use to develop programs on the PC...

The iPhone SDK is the only way to develop iPhone apps.

Similarly, Flash is the only way to develop Flash. I can't buy any other app (as far as I know) and develop Flash plugins, can I?

So Flash seems to me to be just as closed as Adobe says the iPhone development kit is.

Also... I have the iPhone SDK... and I can develop anything I want with it! And if I pay to join the developer's program (I did and it is $99 per year), then I can put any program I develop on up to 100 iPhones.

What Apple limits is the ability to SELL your app through the iTunes app store unless you follow their more stringent rules.

Where is the Adobe Flash app store where you can sell your Flash-developed apps?

To my mind... this is like... I can invent my own personal inventions until the cows come home... but if I want to sell my invention at Wal-Mart, I'm going to have to have an agreement with them and probably tailor my invention to some extent before they will allow me to sell it in their store.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Actually you can do Flash authoring with a number of apps, including Quark XPress which is a direct competitor to Adobe's products. Now, it's not as easy or as good, but you can do it. I think Corel Draw can do it too.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually you can do Flash authoring with a number of apps, including Quark XPress which is a direct competitor to Adobe's products. Now, it's not as easy or as good, but you can do it. I think Corel Draw can do it too.


I did not know that... That's good to know.

Incidentally, IF Adobe wanted to still support exporting iPhone apps via Flash CS5... they could still do that... and people could put those Flash-developed apps on their own iPhones!

The only thing Apple is really restricting in that regard is the ability to sell those apps.

Then the only thing left is Flash plug-in support for Safari on the iPhone... and maybe Apple is blocking that, but I'm not sure iPhone customers are really caring that much at this point, based upon iPhone sales.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

As a future iPhone owner, I won't care until the day I need some information from a Flash or Java site....


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> As a future iPhone owner, I won't care until the day I need some information from a Flash or Java site....


I think that saying iPhone or iPad users don't care about it not supporting Flash is an over-simplification. Many of them care, but not enough to keep them from buying and using those products. For some it's because it's the "in" device to have, for others because it fits a specific need or does the best of job of fitting needs. I don't really care that my Droid doesn't render flash (it has a built-in YouTube player just like the iPhone) but a friend of mine that bought one as is completely non-technical asks me about Flash support at least once every two weeks or more. Why does she want Flash?? Because people send her things or sites that she can't open or see everything that she can on a PC.

Let's face it, at this point there is a good number of people that would buy the iPhone 4G even if it was discovered that it unleashes frog urine into your hand every time you visit a site that isn't endorsed or run by Apple - just because it's the next "the device" to be seen with.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't think I'd go so far as frog urine. Eye jelly from a snowy egret, maybe.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Incidentally, IF Adobe wanted to still support exporting iPhone apps via Flash CS5... they could still do that... and people could put those Flash-developed apps on their own iPhones!
> 
> The only thing Apple is really restricting in that regard is the ability to sell those apps.


You are missing the big point though in your argument that they are the same, you CANNOT get ANY app on the iPhone unless it goes through Apple's app store approval process. Even if it is free. Using dev keys is not making an application, it is for testing an app. We have seen example after example of how they can just make up any excuse to not let something through the process. There is no such thing with flash (or Visual Studio or even OSX Development). I can make you a flash movie right now in Flash CS4, put it on my website, and you can start using it. Adobe has no say in what I make nor any ability to approve or disapprove. That I am sure is what scares/threatens Apple as their OS is no longer closed to only apps they approve. Same reason Java is not on the iPhone most likely even though it has been on just about every other phone for years now as well as just about any device you can think of (even bluray players). All of a sudden it becomes open for anyone to develop anything for it. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, just explaining why saying Flash is closed like iPhone apps is completely incorrect. It is hard to compare anyways as they are different approaches to development.

Also don't be fooled by sales of a device as how good it is. People buy iPhones because they are "iPhones!" now. Look at the first iPhone for example and how well it sold....it was honestly a gimped overpriced phone. It did not even have 3G access and was a smartphone! 

Again, I am not nagging on Apple or the iPhone. I respect both for what they are and happen to think the iPhone OS is decent. But they are what they are and there are negatives just like with anything.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Grentz said:


> You are missing the big point though in your argument that they are the same, you CANNOT get ANY app on the iPhone unless it goes through Apple's app store approval process. Even if it is free. Using dev keys is not making an application, it is for testing an app.


You just aren't correct here.

I have the iPhone SDK... and I have been writing apps... and I have put those apps on other iPhones through iTunes.

The only thing I haven't done yet is submit an app for approval by Apple, as I don't have anything worthy of being sold at this point as I am still learning the ropes.

But, I can make any app I want with the SDK and put it on up to 100 iPhones very easily even if they were apps that Apple would reject for sale (or free) through iTunes.

So, I say again... anyone with an iPhone can pay for the developer's subscription of $99 a year and download the free SDK and then put any app you can create on the iPhone.

The only thing you can't do without Apple approval is sell (or give away) through their iTunes storefront.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

It is still limited though. You said it yourself. Having a 100 device limit (that expires without subscription) is not open, that is still locked down and closed. It also says right on the dev site that it is for testing and development purposes, not meant to be for public wide distribution of your apps (that is what the app store is for). You can't make a DBSTalk app, put it up on the DBSTalk home page, and say it is for people to use without worrying about the limits. Flash is completely open. I can distribute my app, put it on sites, give it to everyone in the world for that matter. No limits on content, numbers of users, etc.

I will approach this in a different way, why do you think flash is closed at all? You can use multiple programs to write for it, no one approves/disapproves the output, there are no subscriptions or licenses to use the output, the player is 100% free for multiple OSes and devices, etc.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Grentz said:


> It is still limited though. You said it yourself. Having a 100 device limit (that expires without subscription) is not open, that is still locked down and closed. It also says right on the dev site that it is for testing and development purposes, not meant to be for public wide distribution of your apps (that is what the app store is for). You can't make a DBSTalk app, put it up on the DBSTalk home page, and say it is for people to use without worrying about the limits. Flash is completely open. I can distribute my app, put it on sites, give it to everyone in the world for that matter. No limits on content, numbers of users, etc.


But who says Apple has to make it so anyone can sell an app to anyone else? Or that you have the right to put an app on someone else's iPhone even it they want it?

Incidentally, that 100 limit is because I signed up for an individual developer account. I could have signed up for an enterprise account for around $300 and then use it for my whole company but not have access to the app store.

The point here really is... Apple is maintaining and marketing the iTunes app store so you don't have to do anything but write your code in the manner they request and submit it. You pay nothing for a free app, and for a paid app (that you sell) you don't pay anything except a cut of the transaction.

So, yeah, it is somewhat closed in that you can't just sell/distribute unlimited to everyone without following the rules... but that's pretty much true of a lot of things.

I don't really see where the problem here is... Buy an iPhone if you want it, develop apps for it if you want (according to Apple's rules)... or don't.



Grentz said:


> I will approach this in a different way, why do you think flash is closed at all? You can use multiple programs to write for it, no one approves/disapproves the output, there are no subscriptions or licenses to use the output, the player is 100% free for multiple OSes and devices, etc.


I only started the Flash-is-closed, because Adobe seems to think Apple has a closed environment but their Flash is wide open... even though Adobe is the only company writing the specs for Flash... and licensing out the ability to develop Flash to other companies who make tools... so if you don't follow Adobe's rules for Flash development, then your Flash-app might not work with other people's browsers and the Flash plug-in.

Adobe is really just as protective of their Flash as Apple is of their iPhone SDK.

Adobe is just mad because Apple has decided not to accept Adobe Flash into their world... and that seems to me to be fine. IF enough customers wanted Flash then Apple might change their mind... but if Apple customers plug along without Flash on the iPhone, then it seems like a non-issue.

I just can't see Adobe acting like they are the kings of open source when they are a company with some controls over the thing they develop much in the same way Apple is with the stuff they develop.

I can virtually guarantee that if someone out there developed a Flash-content-creation program and did NOT license from Adobe for the rights to do so... Adobe would find a way to prevent Flash-content from that source from playing in their Flash plug-ins for Web browser... and it would be perfectly right for them to do so.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

It is your program. Apple should have no rights over what you make. That is how it should work in an open system. SDKs are supposed to be tools, not programs that lock down what you make/create.



Stewart Vernon said:


> I only started the Flash-is-closed, because Adobe seems to think Apple has a closed environment but their Flash is wide open... even though Adobe is the only company writing the specs for Flash... and licensing out the ability to develop Flash to other companies who make tools... so if you don't follow Adobe's rules for Flash development, then your Flash-app might not work with other people's browsers and the Flash plug-in.


That is the same way it works with pretty much any programming environment. Do you think Java is closed then since they write the core code and such?

We are just going to have to agree to disagree because there is no way that I think an environment that requires specific licenses to even run and still has limits is anywhere close to open. That is in comparison to things like Java or Flash or Visual Basic that you can make programs that you are free to do whatever with. The day you show me an iPhone app hosted on a website that can be installed on its own to the iPhone without having to sign up for an Apple given developer license to use it I will completely agree with you. 



Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't really see where the problem here is... Buy an iPhone if you want it, develop apps for it if you want (according to Apple's rules)... or don't.


No problem at all. I feel Apple should do as they like. The iPhone is their device and the SDK is their tool. They can do whatever they want!

I am just having a friendly debate with you 
I hope I am not coming across as anything more than that. Sometimes text gives the wrong impression


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-20003922-94.html

Hey Steve, when is your next major announcement?


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

8,600 employees worldwide.

In other news, a man discovers a new grain of sand on a beach. :lol:


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Marlin Guy said:


> 8,600 employees worldwide.
> 
> In other news, a man discovers a new grain of sand on a beach. :lol:


Yep, the new grain of sand is the new iPhone which won't run Flash, and the beach is all the different Blackberrys and Android powered smartphones that will have Flash. :hurah:


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

It looks like the GVT might have a look at Apple's practices regarding application development to see if they are anti-competitive. My guess is nothing will come of this but it just might at least cause Apple to start reconsidering their own policies. It's also interesting to see them on this side of one of these inquiries.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/03/apple-adobe-flash-antitrust-investigation/


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Grentz said:


> That is the same way it works with pretty much any programming environment. Do you think Java is closed then since they write the core code and such?


I don't have as much familiarity with Java to say with any certainty... but I always thought Java was closer to open-source, like the Linux operating system is... where pretty much anyone can submit code that might make it into an official built.



Grentz said:


> No problem at all. I feel Apple should do as they like. The iPhone is their device and the SDK is their tool. They can do whatever they want!
> 
> I am just having a friendly debate with you
> I hope I am not coming across as anything more than that. Sometimes text gives the wrong impression


I didn't mean for my other post to sound harsh, if you read it that way... I wasn't even meaning it to you specifically but rather that generic "you" as in all of us... where we have a choice to buy or not buy.

Would I like more open-ness with my iPhone? Maybe. I can't say. More open-ness means more opportunity for unexpected bugs too... so to some extent the "closed" iPhone development environment helps to make sure programmers are playing in the same sandbox.

Remember all those times in Windows where Program A would interfere with Program B? Like one would overwrite a common shared file and break the other program... or an uninstall (Roxio is famous for this) that disables something else?

With the Apple iPhone SDK, you can feel better about putting something new on your iPhone and not having it ruin anything else AND know you can delete it also without breaking something else.

These days I like that stability (though the iPhone is not bug free) better than flexibility.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

From USA Today:



> Does Apple have the right to tell developers what kind of software they must use to create applications for its mobile devices? That question is about to be pondered by federal regulators, who plan to examine whether Apple's (AAPL) new rules for developers violate antitrust rules, according to the Associated Press, citing a person with knowledge of the inquiry who was not authorized to speak publicly.


http://m.usatoday.com/Tech/1689634/
The battle grows.


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## Marlin Guy (Apr 8, 2009)

BubblePuppy said:


> From USA Today: Does Apple have the right to tell developers what kind of software they must use to create applications for its mobile device


That's ridiculous. The developers can use whatever they want. They could write their apps in DOS if they're so inclined, but that doesn't mean Apple has to install DOS and support it.
Absolutely absurd. :nono2:


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Looks like Apple/Steve Jobs is quickly losing luster and is no longer a "Golden Child". Dictators don't last very long.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm not ready to close the book on Mr. Jobs quite yet but yes, it seems historically that open platforms generally last longer than closed ones.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm not ready to close the book on Mr. Jobs quite yet but yes, it seems historically that open platforms generally last longer than closed ones.


Oh, I agree. Jobs is a genius, but he wants it his way and he doesn't play well with others.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

So what else is new? Stories of his attitude and fits are legendary. My point is, that in my opinion it's all smoke and mirrors. This isn't about what's best for Apple or what's best for the consumer. It's about a long history of bad blood between Apple and Adobe. If Adobe hadn't bought Macromedia (developers of Flash) then I bet it would have been supported. Look at the big picture... there isn't even a version of Adobe Reader for iPhone and you'd think that would be a no-brainer. There are other PDF readers, including some native support in the OS (because PDF is a mostly open format...) but no Adobe Reader. What would Jobs' motivation for keeping that off the iPhone be?


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