# Thinking of making the jump to E*, but...



## White94Cobra (Jun 18, 2007)

I've been going back and forth on whether to switch to E*. Primary issues with current vendor are lack of a certain sports channel, S L O W DVR, no HD locals for my area (E* has them), and stupid 30 second "slip" keeps skipping to the end. Here's a list of things that are keeping me from making the jump:

1. VIP-722K runs very hot, questionable reliability
2. Frequent unexplained reboots (may be related to #1)
3. OTA tuner module for 722K has issues tuning
4. Buggy software and frequently missed recordings
5. Issues while watching recordings (jumping to end, timers ending early, etc).

I've read the heat problem can be solved with a laptop cooler. The other issues don't appear to be fixable by the end user. While my current DVR drives me nuts with the speed and skip-to-end issue, it is very reliable and has never missed a recording.

Thanks for any feedback/advice!


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

I'd say you have a good understanding of the potential issues with the receivers on both sides of the fence. Now make sure you carefully compare the channel packages, and that you understand how Dish's programming/additional receiver/TV2/DVR fees are structured. If you have more than 4 TVs that need unique programming, or more than 2 HDTVs, or need more than one sat tuner per TV, there will likely be some additional startup costs.

Dish will lease you receivers to support a total of 4 TVs. As a new customer, you can get up to a ViP722 HD-DVR and a ViP222 HD recever without any up-front fee. Both of those are "Duo" receivers with 2 sat tuners which are shared between 2 TV outputs; TV1 is HD and TV2 is down-converted to SD and distributed via coax. The TV2 remotes are RF so they'll work in a different room than where the receiver is.

Paid upgrades include the "Solo" ViP211 (single-tuner HD receiver, which can be converted to a single-tuner DVR by paying a one-time $40 fee and connecting your own USB external hard drive) or the "Solo" ViP612 (dual-tuner, single TV HD-DVR; the Dish equivalent of an HR2x). You could pay to upgrade and get up to a 722 and 2 612s. You are limited to max of 3 receivers and 4 TV outputs under the lease program.

Receivers beyond your leased receivers must be purchased outright, and will be owned. You bear all costs to get owned receivers connected, including additional dish or switch hardware and installation.

If, say, you get the 722 and 222, that will run 4 TVs. With DirecTV, 4 TVs costs you Programming Package + $15 (3 x $5). With Dish, if you connect your receivers to the phone line and/or Internet, your TV2 mirror fees are waived, so you'd pay Programming Package + $7 (Dish charges $5/month for SD receivers and $7/month for HD receivers). If you don't connect them, you pay Programming Package + $17 ($7 for 2nd HD receiver and 2 x $5 for the TV2 outputs).

The other difference is that Dish charges a $6 DVR fee for EACH DVR (converted 211s don't pay a monthly DVR fee), so having multiple DVRs can add up fast.

Dish's receiver configurations are more versatile, but more complicated, and so is the fee structure, so it is important to figure out the bottom line price when comparing.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Before making the jump you might want to check out the Cutting Edge section. If you're willing to try out early release software you could try installing the code to see if it has a positive effect on your DVR issues. If you don't like it just reload the national release code and then go to Dish if that's your decision.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

I upgraded my ViP622 in July to a ViP722K and have experienced none of the maladies of which you worry.

What you read here is the worse case scenario - all the gripes - none (very few) of the satisfied customers.

The 722k is the most advanced DVR anywhere and will be until the 922 is available.

My anecdotal experience has been flawless.


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## White94Cobra (Jun 18, 2007)

BattleZone - Thanks for the extremely detailed and helpful info. I was planning on the following:

One VIP 722K for main HDTV with 2nd room connection to bedroom. Bedroom TV is HDTV also but down-converted is fine.
One VIP 612 for family room. Currently a SDTV but planning to upgrade to HDTV within next 4-6 months
One VIP 222K for main HDTV connection to my SageTV media PC

Family room TV is for kids and I don't want a ton of kid's shows cluttering up my recording list and filling up my drive - thus their own DVR.

I figure down-converted HD video to bedroom HDTV is better than nothing. I've read that the dish receivers down-convert really well.

222K for Sage is "experimental". I only have OTA HD (5x tuners) on my SageTV box now. If I can reliably get this to work the VIP 722K would just be used for "backup" in case Sage throws one of it's fits.

I figure this will cost me $100 up front in receiver fees, plus $40 to activate the external HD option for the 722K.

What's the likelyhood that I'll get a CSR that can understand my order??

Thanks again!


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Jim5506 said:


> I upgraded my ViP622 in July to a ViP722K and have experienced none of the maladies of which you worry.
> 
> What you read here is the worse case scenario - all the gripes - none (very few) of the satisfied customers.
> 
> ...


I got my 722k about 2 months ago and have missed exactly one recording. The OTA works fine, but it isn't as strong at getting signal as previous ones have been, but it has been more than good enough for my indoor antenna.

And I"ve not seen a heat issue with mine. It is on the lowest shelf of my open rack and runs plenty cool.

What you've seen are some complaints, but if you've noticed it is just from a very few people with the 722k, so I think it is just that some got bad boxes more than a real problem with the design and implementation.

A couple things you'll love right out of the box is the speed of operation, response to the remote and not skip-to-end bug.


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## anrky420 (Sep 22, 2009)

Actually Jim5506, the HR23-700 is far superior to the ViP722k, specs wise at least. i dont know much about the user interface on the vip722k though...


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## White94Cobra (Jun 18, 2007)

lparsons21 - Since it looks like you use both the HR2x series and the VIP series DVR's, I'm interested in your experience. All other things being equal, if you had to use only one of the DVR's, which would you choose and why. 

Thanks!


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

White94Cobra said:


> BattleZone - Thanks for the extremely detailed and helpful info. I was planning on the following:
> 
> One VIP 722K for main HDTV with 2nd room connection to bedroom. Bedroom TV is HDTV also but down-converted is fine.
> One VIP 612 for family room. Currently a SDTV but planning to upgrade to HDTV within next 4-6 months
> ...


You would need to buy the 612 outright; the 722 and 222 max out your 4 leased TV outputs. The 612 is about $300. You'd also need to pay for installation (Dish might waive that, but don't assume/expect it). You might trade the 222 for a 211 and the 612. There will still be an upgrade fee, but you'd fall within the lease limit that way, and it didn't look like you were planning to use the TV2 output of the 222 anyway.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

White94Cobra said:


> lparsons21 - Since it looks like you use both the HR2x series and the VIP series DVR's, I'm interested in your experience. All other things being equal, if you had to use only one of the DVR's, which would you choose and why.
> 
> Thanks!


No problem. I switched to D* about 2 years ago because at the time E* was dawdling with adding HD and my patience ran thin! 

The short answer is that the Vip722k is hands down a much better DVR for lots of reasons. Speed is at the top of my list, and the Vips are much quicker by far than both the HR20 that I originally had, and the HR21 that I have now. The HR21 has the latest update on it.

I never have an issue with remote response on the Vip, nor the skip-to-end that is plagueing many of the HRs and just overall slowness of all operations with them.

Remote response, overall speed, no real bugs showing up, or at least not yet. The fact that I can add an external HD to the Dish Vip and move it to another one without losing all the data. That's important if you do have one die on you. With D*, you can add an external HD, but it replaces the internal and is tied to the HDDVR so that data is lost to you if your HDDVR poops out. And it is not officially supported, although they don't charge the one=time fee that E* does to do it. With D*, it uses eSATA connection which is and irritating connection and the list of which drives works is more encantations than fact, and is rather short at that.

Over the air is important to me, the 722k has an optional OTA module that I got. I can record 2 OTA and 2 SAT events at the same time and watch a 5th recorded event while that is going on. And it works well, I do it all the time.

The interface between the approach that D* and E* takes is different. Neither is great in all areas, both have some very good positives. Overall I prefer the interface from Dish, but Direct's management of recordings is a bit easier and I prefer it.

The service from both is good, I can seen no difference in the picture or sound quality from either service in HD. In SD the picture on Dish is better, imo.

In customer service, both companies vary greatly. Right now Dish is going out of their way to make working with them easy, but that hasn't always been the case, and could change at a moment's notice. Direct these days is not getting many raves about customer service. I noticed it and many others have too.

Another plus with Dish is when you want to add a receiver/dvr. You can add one for free each year (I'm sure there are limitations). I just did that. I am with Dish only 2 months and wanted another DVR. I did the online chat (a big plus imo) with them and they said sure, no charge for the DVR and no charge to install. Direct seldom does that, and during contract are not likely to either, or at least not these days.

I have both services now because Dish doesn't have my locals in HD yet, and I'm hooked on watching Deadwood on D*'s 101 channel. But supposedly tomorrow my locals are supposed to light up from Dish in HD. IF that turns out to happen, I'll be cancelling my Direct service.

Hope this helps.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

anrky420 said:


> Actually Jim5506, the HR23-700 is far superior to the ViP722k, specs wise at least. i dont know much about the user interface on the vip722k though...


There are no reviews that back your flat statement in your first posting here. The Vip series have been reviewed extensively in comparison to other HDDVRs and came out on top in every one of them.

Here's a couple of things off the top of my head:

Vip722k - 2 SAT events + 2 OTA events (if you get the module) recorded live at the same time.

HR2x - 2 events total to be recorded. Well, not entirely true, you can have 2 live events and a DOD one if you can stand SD movies these days 

Vip722k - speed of operation much quicker in all things than any HR.


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## White94Cobra (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks for the info guys! I've got enough to make my decision.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

The E* VIP series also have PIP and a true 16:9 guide (3 hours of programming versus 1.5). You can set up four named favories and they are much easier to use than with the HR2* (just press the Guide button repeatedly).

I have had the VIP722 and the HR2* and I much, much preferred the VIP722.

I have FiOS but if I ever have to go back to satellite, I'll go back to Dish Network based on the DVR, especially now that E* has the NFL RedZone channel.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Reaper said:


> The E* VIP series also have PIP


Just to be clear, only the "Duo" receivers have PiP. PiP requires 2 separate video output processors, which is why the 612 (or DirecTV's HRs) can't do PiP.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

BattleZone said:


> Just to be clear, only the "Duo" receivers have PiP. PiP requires 2 separate video output processors, which is why the 612 (or DirecTV's HRs) can't do PiP.


+1
PiP only on Duo Recievers. Almost thru my ViP612 out the window, when I got it and installed it.
GRRRR, and I paid for that sucker too. Grrrrr, always read the fine print.
PiP, Real DLB, Autotune, User Interface, Buffer warning, OTA recordings, Archive. All need to have Features.


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## Hutchinshouse (Sep 28, 2006)

lparsons21 said:


> No problem. I switched to D* about 2 years ago because at the time E* was dawdling with adding HD and my patience ran thin!
> 
> The short answer is that the Vip722k is hands down a much better DVR for lots of reasons. Speed is at the top of my list, and the Vips are much quicker by far than both the HR20 that I originally had, and the HR21 that I have now. The HR21 has the latest update on it.
> 
> ...


Head to head, can you see a differance in HD quality? Both DISH and DIRECTV hooked to your 61" JVC?


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

I'll throw in my two cents. I have an HR22 and used to have an HR21. I also have a 622 and 722.

The Dish PVRs are superior in virtually every way. Responsiveness and OTA capabilities top the list.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Hutchinshouse said:


> Head to head, can you see a differance in HD quality? Both DISH and DIRECTV hooked to your 61" JVC?


No I certainly can't. I will say that the picture is very slightly different, but not one better than the other.

Frankly, after a day or two, because the differences are so slight, you'd never know there was any difference at all.


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## Hutchinshouse (Sep 28, 2006)

lparsons21 said:


> No I certainly can't. I will say that the picture is very slightly different, but not one better than the other.
> 
> Frankly, after a day or two, because the differences are so slight, you'd never know there was any difference at all.


Thanks for the info.


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## looney2ns (Sep 20, 2007)

If the Off the Air Module is added to the 722K, do you have to subscibe to the locals from Dish to use it?


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

looney2ns said:


> If the Off the Air Module is added to the 722K, do you have to subscibe to the locals from Dish to use it?


No, but you won't get guide data if you don't.


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## looney2ns (Sep 20, 2007)

RasputinAXP said:


> No, but you won't get guide data if you don't.


So, wouldn't be able to record OTA then right? Because there would be nothing to select?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Yes you could record OTA but you would have to use Manual Timers. It is definitely more painful from what I have heard but people do do it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Welcome to DBSTalk White94Cobra!

Remember the purpose of these forums are to discuss issues etc so you are going to get a snap shot of various issues people are experiencing and the view definitely is slanted towards the negative (Both on D* and E* sides). 

In anything like this. Mileage will vary. Some people have ran into a lot of pain and some none while most are in the middle. Think bell curve. 

Since I have not spent any time with a DirecTV DVR, I can just go on others opinions I have read over the years. Definitely the 4 HD Streams at once, the EHD support, and the general responsiveness of the receivers are what people like about them over the DirecTV offerings. 

I have had a 722 for over 2 years and personally I like it a lot. Does it have some quarks.. Definitely, but given the functionality it provides me I can understand some of them and the Vip receivers are definitely well liked by most users from what I can tell. 

One thing I will say.. When you first look at them the UI is not that impressive but shinny things are not always the best. As I started to use it I have found that UI to actually be a good compromise given the limitations a remote usually brings. 

Good luck on your research and let us know if you give Dish and try and if you have any questions by all means drop them into this forum.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

Ron Barry said:


> One thing I will say.. When you first look at them the UI is not that impressive but shinny things are not always the best. As I started to use it I have found that UI to actually be a good compromise given the limitations a remote usually brings.


Yeah, the Dish UI is not very attractive, but it is quite functional.

I for one am looking forward to seeing the HD interface on the forthcoming VIP922.


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## etzeppy (Feb 16, 2007)

I upgraded from a 622 to a 722K in May. I am happy overall with the 722K. The OTA tunner does require slightly more signal than the tunner in my TV but it's not bad. I also think that the 722K runs cooler than the 622. My only complaint is that the HDMI audio gets "choppy" if two or more programs are recording at the same time. The digital optical audio does not seem to have this problem.


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