# FED UP w/ Dish HD in SF.



## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

All 4 Networks are now unwatchable. I sent the following email to Dish CEO, Dish Quality and my local ABC Affiliate iTeam investigator, maybe now they will get off their duff and fix the issues that we are paying extra for.

This email is being sent to the following people:

Dish Network CEO
Dish Network Audio / Video Team
and
Michael Finney - ABC 7 On Your Side
7 On Your Side
ABC7/KGO-TV
900 Front Street
San Francisco, CA 94111-1450

Ok folks,

I am copying Michael Finney from ABC 7 On Your Side on this email. Since Dish Network Tech Support Reps (at the call centers) are blaming the local networks for the continuing issues, I feel it is best to include them on this issue. It's odd that neither Comcast, DirecTv or OTA broadcasts are experiencing these issues, but Dish Reps are calling it the Local Stations issues.

We are going on 60 days now, ever since I joined Dish in May, you've sent me a new receiver had the installers come back out to check the dish, etc. You also know that this is not just an isolated issue. NUMEROUS BAY AREA SUBSCRIBERS EXPERIENCING THIS according to the internet forums listed below. I also know it's not my equipment, as many other people are experiencing it on most every mpeg4 HD receiver dish makes according to the internet user forums

As of right now here is the viewing experience w/ the SF Bay Area HD Locals:

FOX HD (KTVU) - Out of Audio Sync
NBC HD (KNTV) - Horrible picture quality. Major ghosting/artifacts
ABC HD (KGO) - Out of Audio Sync. Worse than ever. Now it sounds like a skipping tape. Audio is more than 1 second out of sync
CBS HD (KPIX) - Major ghosting (similar to NBC).

Dish is seriously dropping the ball on this. How hard can it be for you guys to fix this. It's been going on 2 months now. Every time you respond, you say, "We're doing some updates tonight/today, etc. that should fix it". But it only gets worse.

Up until last weekend, at least FOX & CBS were working well and had no issues. Now none of the HD locals are working, yet Dish is doing nothing to make it right for the subscribers who are paying extra for this service.

I don't mean to be a jerk or a pain in the butt, but the canned responses need to stop. Dish is risking losing a lot of people in the Bay Area (read dbstalk.com, highdefforums.com and satelliteguys.us). People are getting fed up. Your HD viewers pay significantly more for service than normal SD subscribers do and we just get the run around when we report issues and get substandard quality.

If it's not fixed by the end of the month, I'm canceling my service and going back to DirecTv. 60+ days should be more than sufficient time to fix these issues.

Dish should issue refunds for people who have been paying to receive these sub-standard channels over the last two and a half months and provide the channels for free until the issues are fixed.

Mr. Finney,
Below is the email strings between myself and Dish.

-----------------------
Dear Wrecker06,

We want you to know that we appreciate your information and we have been using it. Our engineers have read your email. The Quality Assurance team is currently observing SF as well. Tonight we hope to make some more changes. So if you see any improvements or it gets worse let us know. We are using your information. It has been very helpful. It will be a matter of getting the problem identified and then corrected.

Unfortunately, sometimes these things take awhile and then other times it is a matter of a few minutes. We will get it. Thank you for you patience, information, and for being a valued customer.

EchoStar Satellite LLC
Quality Assurance Department
[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: ---- Wrecker 06 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: CEO
Subject: MAJOR HD LOCAL AUDIO/VIDEO QUALITY ISSUES IN SAN FRANCISCO

Josh,

Thanks for the update, here is the results of the maintenance Dish did over the weekend.

Things got worse:

ABC HD (KGO) - Once again out of audio sync. A full second behind. 
NBC HD (KNTV) - Still very jittery
CBS HD (KGO) - Was flawless, now has weird ghosting and A LOT of green
pixelation that lasts about 20 seconds.
FOX HD (KTVU) - Not as sharp as clear as it was. But is watchable

Not sure what the Dish Engineers did, but now only 1 of my HD locals is watchable (FOX). CBS is now very ghosty and gets so much pixilation break ups that it is annoying! ABC was finally working perfectly until Friday evening.

On 7/12/06 1:45 PM, "Echostar Employee" [email protected] wrote:

These stations are having maintenance performed over the next 2-3 days.
We're expecting this to resolve most of the issues. As maintenance is being done, you will most likely see these issues come and go, being completed over the weekend and hopefully resolved by Monday. You will most likely have periods of quality that are very good, but don't get worse than what you are seeing now. We'll touch base in a few days for an update.

Josh

-----Original Message-----
From: ---- Wrecker 06
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:30 AM
To: Echostar Employee
Subject: Re: GOOD NEWS~~~~ RE: MAJOR NBC HD Picture Quality problems
and
ABC Audio Sync issues

NBC is still jittery. And now CBS HD picture quality has started to get jittery, when it was perfect before.

On 7/12/06 6:37 AM, "[email protected] wrote:

Great. Thanks for the feedback. I'll let the engineers know that they are making progress.

Keep me posted if you see any other issues or anything gets better.

Employee

-----Original Message-----
From: ---- Wrecker 06
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 7:53 PM
To: Employee
Subject: GOOD NEWS~~~~ RE: MAJOR NBC HD Picture Quality problems and
ABC
Audio Sync issues

employee,

I can happily report that ABC HD (KGO) seems to be in sync and the HD and SD picture quality is OUTSTANDING! It looks like they upped the frame rate or something. Much smoother and sharper than it was.

NBC HD (KNTV) also seems to be working a lot better. Although it looks like some fine tuning is still needed.

On 7/10/06 12:54 PM, "[email protected]
wrote:

Ok, thanks for the help. They are getting closer to the other issues as well.

employee

-----Original Message-----
From: ---- Wrecker 06
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:53 PM
To: employee
Subject: Re: SF Local News Team reports about Dish Network Local HD Audio/Video issues... RE: MAJOR NBC HD Picture Quality problems and ABC Audio Sync issues

I will check tonight on NBC HD and get back to you than.

On 7/10/06 12:40 PM, "[email protected] wrote:

Are you seeing any improvements in the jittery video issue? I understand that the a/v sync may still be off, but we think we've fixed issues with jittery video, can you confirm this?

xxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: ---- Wrecker 06
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 7:10 AM
To: xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: SF Local News Team reports about Dish Network Local HD
Audio/Video issues... RE: MAJOR NBC HD Picture Quality problems and
ABC
Audio Sync issues

Ok. Please follow up with me and let me know what to expect. If
it
can't
be fixed this week, I'm most likely going to cancel my service.

On 7/9/06 4:11 PM, "[email protected]
wrote:

Give me a day or two to get a response from the locals engineering
guys.
I already forwarded this on to them with a high priority so that
they
have to look at it and respond. We'll see what they come back with
and
move again from there.

xxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: ---- Wrecker 06
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:49 AM
To: xxxxxxx
Cc: CEO
Subject: SF Local News Team reports about Dish Network Local HD Audio/Video issues... RE: MAJOR NBC HD Picture Quality problems and ABC Audio Sync issues

xxxx,

A followup to the last email. The issues are now on both my 622 & 211 receivers.

ABC HD (KGO) is now almost a full second out of audio sync
NBC HD (KNTV) is worst than it's ever been since I've been
customer.

If there was a way to email you two of the shows I've recorded I would.

Customer Service Rep says "Dish Network has not received any complaints regarding audio on KGO or Video Quality on KNTV HD and that they need to contact the stations".

I am paying extra $$ each month to receive my locals in HD and only two of them are watchable. Dish should really step up to the plate and fix the issues or refund every bay area customer who pays for HD local channels that are unwatchable.

---- Wrecker 06

On Saturday, June 24, 2006, at 03:37PM, 
[email protected] wrote:

Original Attached


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

If I recall correctly, the landscape of the SF Bay Area is a transmission nightmare. All of the SF stations broadcast from a single mega-tower. I think I had posted an article about this ages ago.


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

What Dish needs to do is to get a direct feed from the local stations and not from Sutro Tower. That would eliminate the problems when they have to do maintenance or repair work on the tower. Comcast has a direct feed for these local stations, why doesn't Dish do the same thing ???

Laters,
Mikef5


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## gsalem (Feb 4, 2004)

Ahhh! 

So we have Wrecker to blame for the "tweeks" this weekend!


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

gsalem said:


> Ahhh!
> 
> So we have Wrecker to blame for the "tweeks" this weekend!


Not me. I didn't send this until last night. I've been communicating with them giving them feedback at their request for their updates. But the tweaks over this weekend that made all four of the channels (instead of just NBC and ABC) unwatchable really P**sed me off 

I just don't understand how their engineers can't figure this out? I mean do they get them out of the call centers? That would explain alot.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Mikef5 said:


> What Dish needs to do is to get a direct feed from the local stations and not from Sutro Tower. That would eliminate the problems when they have to do maintenance or repair work on the tower. Comcast has a direct feed for these local stations, why doesn't Dish do the same thing ???
> 
> Laters,
> Mikef5


How do you get a direct feed to their satellite? Really long cords?? Just kidding. Isn't Dish in Colorado?


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## pdxsam (Jun 20, 2004)

Wrecker06 said:


> How do you get a direct feed to their satellite? Really long cords?? Just kidding. Isn't Dish in Colorado?


Fiber optic feeds of the signals to the uplink center in Wyoming (or Spkane if SF is being uplinked there).

Dish already sends the signals by fiber optics from their SF point of presence. They just need to get a fiber between the TV stations and their POP to complete the circuit.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

pdxsam said:


> Fiber optic feeds of the signals to the uplink center in Wyoming (or Spkane if SF is being uplinked there).
> 
> Dish already sends the signals by fiber optics from their SF point of presence. They just need to get a fiber between the TV stations and their POP to complete the circuit.


If you have ever had to run fiber optics for a company in a major city, you will find out it can be VERY VERY expensive.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

I received two calls today from Dish Engineering team (one from the VP of Broadcasting). They explained pretty much the issue is with the mpeg4 decoders and something else that I can't remember. Basically there is only 1 company that makes these things for Dish, DirecTv and Comcast, and they're all pretty much experiencing the same issues. All the companies talk to each others engineers apparently and all are reporting the same issues. They do have a team in SF for the week to work on them. 

They've been recording the OTA stream and the Dish streams to see where the issues are. Some are with Dish, some are with the affiliates. They said that if the affiliate drops a frame (or something like that) then it causes the feeds to go out of sync and they have to constantly update themselves to keep them in check. 

They also mentioned that they're now doing pretty much daily tweaks to the 622 & 211 software and if things get really out of whack to reboot the machines and see if it's any better. If the audio is insync after the reboot for awhile and then goes out again, there is probably an issue with the machine as well. 

Bottom line, they're on the up and up and they're going to fix it. MAJOR KUDO's to the Dish guys. Great service to actually update a random customer like that. 

They even invited to come down to the SF facility to see how everything works. HELL YEAH I WANNA GO SEE IT. That's cool.  :grin:  

They read this board in depth also and said they appreciate when people let them know what they are experiencing. 

Even though it's a pain in the (_I_) to watch the HD locals right now, they saved a customer. You can bet your socks that DirecTv folks would never call a random customer like that.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Good to hear! I am sooooo worried that NBC wont be fix in time for football in ONLY 6 weeks. 

What ever happen to the two other DT channels that were supposedly uplinked?


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Wrecker06 said:


> I received two calls today from Dish Engineering team (one from the VP of Broadcasting).
> 
> Even though it's a pain in the (_I_) to watch the HD locals right now, they saved a customer. You can bet your socks that DirecTv folks would never call a random customer like that.


 Yes Dish is very good when it comes to picture quality complaints. I received a phone call from the same guy you did , I think he said his name was Jeff Mc Schooler. He called to personally thank me for my email that congratulated the engineers for fixing my Houston hd locals. I got an email thanking me also. THis is the epitome of great customer service to me. It shows me that they care about Picture quality as much as I do. I don't think Directv cares what you are looking at as long as you pay them. I don't recall them having any email address for picture /audio quality complaints.

Over the years , I have worked with the dish engineers to tweak several channels in both hd and sd . I even got a dish watch and a formal letter thanking me a few years back for alerting them to the problems with the Hd Discovery channel. THey had the Discovery channel engineers come to Dish and watch the channel there and they too confirmed the same problems I saw. This was fixed due to my emails and phone calls. I have even tweaked local channels over the phone with the dish engineers. They called and did it right there while I was on the phone with them. Now that is service.

IF you send a detailed email and leave your name and phone number and keep sending them at various times of the day telling them what problem you are seeing or hearing they will call you back or send an email. It takes commitment by the customer to keep doing this but it does pay off. It took two months from when I got Houston hd locals till Dish got all the channels looking Great. But they all look great now. 

[email protected]


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## HD_Wayne (May 23, 2006)

Wrecker06 said:


> They said that if the affiliate drops a frame (or something like that) then it causes the feeds to go out of sync and they have to constantly update themselves to keep them in check.


Isn't digital transmission wonderful? Well in reality it is much more complex than the NTSC transmissions are and when the lights go out in 2009 for NTSC transmissions I think there will be a lot of the kinds of issues that E* is experiencing right now unless the market has largly switched over to digital already. The received streams (audio and video) have to be synced and then re-encoded for each local station requiring some not so cheap equipment. I know that E* uses Harmony encoders (about $38,000 each) not sure what they use for syncing the audio with the video but would like to know if E* cares to tell us.

Wayne


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## davidxlai (Jan 21, 2006)

I noticed that the KGO audio sync is fine since last night. Pictures improved on NBC as well (not really fixed yet). And KTVU (Fox) HD picture quality now looks really good. Thanks for all the folks here for voicing the concerns.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I don't think Directv cares what you are looking at as long as you pay them. I don't recall them having any email address for picture /audio quality complaints.


This is commonly known as the "Retention Department". Apparently D* okay with customers getting up enough steam to threaten to jump ship before they give an issue a hearing. Like Microsoft, they will categorically deny that a problem exists. Perhaps this is better than blaming the other party though.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

WEll, I can honestly say I am VERY close to cancelling and going to cable.... 

I don't care if they acknowledge a problem exists or not... they are both the same if nothing is done to resolve it. 2 months is MORE than enough time to get the problems fixed. For me, they have about 2 weeks, and if there is not a solution I am gone.


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## jwjensen356 (Apr 11, 2006)

After reading all this discussion, I thiought I would see what all the commotion is about. I looked at the KGO, KNTV, KTVU and KPIX channels which Dish has assigned as HD (I assume these are the -01 sub-channels). They looked OK visually to me (but were all displaying SD content). However, I did see the audio delay, particularly with KGO. Since I have OTA capability (antenna hooked through my 211 receiver), I went to those same channels (-01). Still SD and the picture was about the same but perhaps with a bit less audio delay (but still there).

But I don't have the need for the satellite-relayed -01 channels since I can get them OTA. I live in San Mateo, perhaps 20 air miles from the tower. I am up in the hills so I have essentially line-of-site reception. And I get lots of sub-channels. Including the regular 09-00 channel, KQED (PBS) has a total of 6 channels. Channel 4 (KRON) on their 04-02 channel often has full screen HD programming.

Later I watched Nova on KQED and switched a few times between 09-00 and 09-01. 09-00 was broadcasting Nova in SD (which looked pretty good), but 09-01 was broadcasting in HD filling up my 52" screen with the usual WOW content

My 211 receiver had given me the fits several weeks ago but I calmed it down by turning off the auto enable for middle-of-the-night downloads. Now I pull the plug every two days or so and let it download the guide material update. Perhaps when they sort out their software problems, I will reset the enabling feature. The HDMI problem is not involving me, my HDMI connection is to my DVD player.

John


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

davidxlai said:


> I noticed that the KGO audio sync is fine since last night. Pictures improved on NBC as well (not really fixed yet). And KTVU (Fox) HD picture quality now looks really good. Thanks for all the folks here for voicing the concerns.


That's what I told the Echostar guy when he called to ask me how it was. He said they're going to make additional changes tonight to see what happens. I said, "don't touch abc or fox, they're working".


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

There was one night a couple of weeks ago, where all channels seemed to be synced to me. The only remaining problem was the ghosting on KNTV, but the next day it was back to normal. (crap) It could have been because i was watching SD content at the time (on the HD channels) ... and I have noticed that it gets much worse when HD content is viewed.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

So, anyone hear any updates on what is going on?? Last night things looked just as bad or worse than ever.

KTVU - audio was synced, but the video looked much more pixelated than normal on HD programming
KPIX - Audio was badly out of sync, and it inow blurring like KNTV, although not as badly.
KGO - Audio WAAAAAY out of sync, but picture looks fine.
KNTV- Video blurred so badly it is unwatchable. Couldn't even focus on the screen long enough determine whether audio was in sync or not.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Well I fired off yet another email to [email protected] and have yet to receive a response, but I think we need to be even more vocal than we have been if we expect to see any kind of results. So, everyone keeping up with this thread should be sending them messages at LEAST once per week, and let them know how you feel about it.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Are ya'll putting your contact phone numbers on your emails? IF not then do so. They will even call you at the house and talk to you sometimes to tweak it over the phone. 

I got a call from Steve Caulk today - I thank that is his name , and he answered my email I sent this morning within three hours of me sending it. He asked me if I noticed any difference on the Houston Cbs station. I had seen a return of the mpeg 4artifacts and jerkiness, etc last night and this morning, so I sent an email telling them. 

He told me that they sent someone to the Houston station today to check on it and there was a problem with the equipment at the station. They tweaked it and he asked me what I was seeing. I told him I was watching a movie and hadn't looked at it since that morning when I sent the email. I told him I would watch the 12:00 pm news and send an email back to inform them of what I saw. When I watched the news and the show following , I noticed it was fixed again. So I sent an email back thanking them again for fixing the problems. 

So a three hour turn around on an email I sent that morning- Not bad. I wonder if the problems ya'll are having in San Francisco aren't due to some equipment problems at the station as well. Maybe ya'll can suggest a trip to the area for the engineers and have them check the transmitter etc and see if that corrects the problems.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

They are coming in good for me. I'm watching from component on a Crt-RPTV. I wonder if that makes a difference. I also get 9-0, 20-0 and 44-0. I believe these are HD locals.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

HDlover said:


> They are coming in good for me. I'm watching from component on a Crt-RPTV. I wonder if that makes a difference. I also get 9-0, 20-0 and 44-0. I believe these are HD locals.


Are you SURE you are watching the locals in HD??? Because 9,20,and 44 are not HD locals on Dish. What type of receiver do you have?


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm watching a Mits 73713. Yup, they aren't HD but then again why not? BTW, KNTV-HD (11-0) does need fixing and KGO's audio is ever so slightly out of Sync. I guess I'll join the e-mail brigade.


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

HDlover said:


> I'm watching a Mits 73713. Yup, they aren't HD but then again why not? BTW, KNTV-HD (11-0) does need fixing and KGO's audio is ever so slightly out of Sync. I guess I'll join the e-mail brigade.


KNTV-HD is not 11-0 that is the analog channel, the digital channel is 11-1
KTVU-HD is 2-1
KPIX-HD is 5-1
KGO-HD is 7-1
KQED-HD is 9-1
Try punching those numbers into your tuner and you will see the difference. Those numbers are the OTA channel numbers for the Bay Area

Laters,
Mikef5


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Mikef5 said:


> KNTV-HD is not 11-0 that is the analog channel, the digital channel is 11-1
> KTVU-HD is 2-1
> KPIX-HD is 5-1
> KGO-HD is 7-1
> ...


Cannot comment about SF in specific but,
The VIP receivers can mapdown the DISH carried stations to the -0 channels on your receiver. In fact they will not appear unless you are mapping them down. If you have it set to map hd down (the default) it will map down the HD broadcast, if they have it, to -0 otherwise it will map down the SD broadcast. It does not do analog at all. OTA digital channels appear as -1,-2,etc.

Note 921-s and others that did do ota Analog use to place these as -0 (unless you mapped down).


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

tnsprin said:


> Cannot comment about SF in specific but,
> The VIP receivers can mapdown the DISH carried stations to the -0 channels on your receiver. In fact they will not appear unless you are mapping them down. If you have it set to map hd down (the default) it will map down the HD broadcast, if they have it, to -0 otherwise it will map down the SD broadcast. It does not do analog at all. OTA digital channels appear as -1,-2,etc.
> 
> Note 921-s and others that did do ota Analog use to place these as -0 (unless you mapped down).


I thought he was talking about the OTA channels, not the Dish provided channels, my bad, I should've read it better 

Laters,
Mikef5


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Mikef5 said:


> KNTV-HD is not 11-0 that is the analog channel, the digital channel is 11-1
> KTVU-HD is 2-1
> KPIX-HD is 5-1
> KGO-HD is 7-1
> ...


Actually, it depends on the preferences you have set up in your receiver.


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## mdgolf (Apr 14, 2006)

So glad you all are on this. I ordered my 622 on Saturday and made the tech note in my account file that I am aware of these issues. 

When I told her it had been several months, she was surprised.

They made a point of saying that we aren't being charged any more for the HD locals than for SD locals. I said at least 75% of the reason to make the jump to HD is to get ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX network programming in HD, and in a market like the Bay Area where all but a few locations cannot receive OTA signals the delivery via SAT is critical. 

I also suggested that we should be given HD L'il access to a diff market (Sac, LA etc) until this is resolved. Although I know this would be messy...and the FCC probably wouldn't allow it anyway. I know the NAB would go nuts.

Any changes in A/V Q?


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

The video audio quality is coming along on all stations except for NBC, still no change there. Dish has a team in CA to work on it. They've called me on the phone several times and have sent me emails. They clearly care about their customers which is why I'm sticking with it. 

Shouldn't be too much longer now. 

I did let them know that all of the HD channels seems to lose some quality after the L360 update and asked if that was a software issue or just something they're testing on the engineering side. I haven't heard back on it yet. I'll keep you posted though.

I wouldn't hold your breath on the LiL's from other markets. But the team they sent out here seems to have a grasp on it, as they've made several very noticable improvements.


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## mdgolf (Apr 14, 2006)

Wrecker06 said:


> I wouldn't hold your breath on the LiL's from other markets. But the team they sent out here seems to have a grasp on it, as they've made several very noticable improvements.


I'm in the TV/Cable/Radio ad sales biz...I know we won't get l'ils from another market.  Just threw it out there to the tech, who was a third level BTW. They take Cust Svc calls on weekends. When she realized I had done my homework and had a semi-clue, she was very forthcoming about "things to know."

Again...I appreciate your, and everyone else's efforts to help E* deliver a quality product. I've been around for 9 years and don't want to change...


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Wrecker06 said:


> The video audio quality is coming along on all stations except for NBC, still no change there. Dish has a team in CA to work on it. They've called me on the phone several times and have sent me emails. They clearly care about their customers which is why I'm sticking with it.
> 
> Shouldn't be too much longer now.
> 
> ...


I don't know if I agree that the "quality is coming along" I was watching an HD program on KGO last night and the audio sync was as bad as ever. It seems to me that whatever the problem is, it is not a consistent problem. It seems SD programming on the HD channels has less problems... and typically the problems get worse as the night goes on.

Another thing is KPIX used to LOOK great... now it is starting to exhibit the smearing effect that KNTV shows although not nearly as bad, and the audio is now slightly out of sync as well.

Something Interesting: I was watching an HD program on KNTV last night and it looked PERFECT for about 90% of the time, and would revert to the smearing only 10% of the time. What was REALLY interesting is that the SD commercials would ALWAYS smear BADLY and then when it went to the HD broadcast it would mostly clear up. About an hour later though the entire broadcast reverted back to constant smearing.

I guess I am just not convinced that just because they are aware of the problem and communicating with some of us that ANY progress is being made. Because the problems are exhibiting themselves in exactly the same ways. It has always fluctuated between bad and worse and it is still doing that, and I can't attribute that to engineering changes.

Perhaps part of the problem is that the engineers are working during the day when there is no HD programming being broadcast and making their changes and observing the quality during SD programming. To me it is obvious that the problems exhibit themselves differently when HD programming is being broadcast.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Response to my nastygram below. I know I have been harsh on them, and probably will be again in a few days when this isn't fixed still, but this response made me feel a little better about the situation.:

Dear Mr. XXXXX,

Thank you for expressing your concerns and interest in DISH Network.
Customer input is an important tool in our efforts to continuously
improve the quality of the DISH Network service.

We had a man on the ground in San Francisco last week working on these
stations. Most customers are telling us the issue now lies in KNTV
smearing and KGO lip sync. We are really down to trying to figure out
what is causing this lip sync and smearing and then getting it
corrected. Unfortunately, sometimes these things take awhile and then
other times it is a matter of a few minutes. Yes, we have had some major
success in Houston and we will in your area as well unfortunately, what
is causing some of these issues in one area is not what is causing it in
another. Our engineers will resolve this, we have faith. As you are
aware, HD technology is relatively new and we are constantly trying to
improve. And by the way, KPIX is not one the majority of our customers
in your area complain about however, we can see it here. The Quality
Assurance team agrees with you and our engineers are aware. Your
information is really helpful, should you notice any changes for the
better or the worse, let us know. In the meantime, we are working on the
ones you brought forth.

At DISH Network we appreciate the time customers take to email their
audio/video quality concerns. Thank you for your patience, information,
and for being a valued customer.

EchoStar Satellite LLC
Quality Assurance Department
[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXX
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 12:17 PM
To: Audio-Video-Quality
Subject: Bad picture quality on SF Bay HD locals.

Ever since the HD locals have been activated in the SF Bay area, the 
quality on them has been horrible with many issues that basically make 
them unwatchable. If there was ANY testing whatsoever before making 
these channels active it would have been obvious they wee not ready for 
the public. I know these issues have been reported over and over, 
because I myself have doneso a few times, and I know there is LOTS of 
talk about this on internet message boards with everyone seeing the same

problems, so it is obviously not an isolated problem with a handful of 
customers. I know I am becoming fed up with this, as it seems like the 
complaints are falling on deaf ears. It has been several months since 
these channels were activated and no progress has been made. I have been

happy with Dish's service in the time I have been with them, but if this

is the quality I am to expect of my "High-definition" channels, I will 
be leaving to another service provider very soon. When will some 
progress be made on these?? I know there has to be a solution, as not 
ALL HD local markets are experiencing these problems, and reports from 
people within other markets (specifically Houston) that DID have these 
problems are reporting that eventually (after much complaining) the 
problems were resolved. I'm sure you are aware of the issues, but I will

once again run down the problems below (all descriptions are when 
watching programming broadcast in HD):

KTVU - Only of the HD channels that is somewhat watchable. The audio is 
synced pretty well, but the video looks more pixelated than normal HD 
programming
KPIX - Audio is badly out of sync, Video is blurry during fast movement 
or panning of the camera. Same effect as KNTV although not quite as bad.
KGO - Audio WAAAAAY out of sync, but picture looks fine.
KNTV- Video blurred so badly during ANY movement it is unwatchable. Any 
fast moving programs give me a headache. Couldn't even focus on the 
screen long enough determine whether audio was in sync or not.

Please do something to get this resolved quickly, as I really WANT to 
stay a Dish NEtwork customer... but can't sit around waiting on empty 
promises forever. (and I'm sure there are lots of others in the area 
that feel the same way.)

Sincerely,

XXXX

.


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## ssmith10pn (Jul 6, 2005)

Just be thankful you have HD locals.

OTA is the only option here and two of the 4 are over 50 miles away.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

ssmith10pn said:


> Just be thankful you have HD locals.
> 
> OTA is the only option here and two of the 4 are over 50 miles away.


well, at this point only one is watchable... so its the same as NOT having them. ALL of the HD locals are about 50 miles away and the topography of the bay area makes it impossible for me to receive any of them OTA unless I have a HUUUUUUGE antenna, and thats a nono living in a condo.


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

grooves12 said:


> well, at this point only one is watchable... so its the same as NOT having them. ALL of the HD locals are about 50 miles away and the topography of the bay area makes it impossible for me to receive any of them OTA unless I have a HUUUUUUGE antenna, and thats a nono living in a condo.


Grooves,
I noticed that you list San Jose as your location. I live in Milpitas and I get all the local digital channels with an indoor antenna. Granted I had to find the right sweet spot to get them all without having to move it around but it is possible. You might want to give it a try, they aren't that expensive and you can always return it if it doesn't work. I use a Radio Shack 15-1880 indoor antenna and it works like a champ.

Laters,
Mikef5


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## Dmitry (Jun 12, 2006)

Mikef5 said:


> Grooves,
> I noticed that you list San Jose as your location. I live in Milpitas and I get all the local digital channels with an indoor antenna. Granted I had to find the right sweet spot to get them all without having to move it around but it is possible. You might want to give it a try, they aren't that expensive and you can always return it if it doesn't work. I use a Radio Shack 15-1880 indoor antenna and it works like a champ.
> 
> Laters,
> Mikef5


I live in San Jose, too and I work in Milpitas. Milpitas is much flatter compared to the San Jose area I live in. I can't get anything (analog or digital) on the first floor of my house, I can get some on the second floor, I imagine I could easily pull in everything with a bigger antenna on the roof, if I didn't have to fight HOA about it. A portable TV with built-in rabbit ears works great in the Milpitas office, so I imagine the terrain has a lot to do with it, especially since the Salinas broadcast which is 10 miles farther away from me is coming in much cleaner than the San Francisco one (but there aren't many tall buildings in that direction).


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Grooves,

I sent an email to my contact at Echostar. I am experiencing the exact same thing as you are now. I am in Walnut Creek. 

He usually gets back to me quickly, so I'll post his response. 

They will fix it. Hang in there. The problem is with the MPEG4 Encoders, apparently only 1 company in the world makes these (or so they say) and both Dish and DirecTv use them. Dish and DirecTv engineers are even talking to each other on this issue as it's effecting both companies and they want to fix it.

The problem is when a company rushes to be first to market with a product, they kind of leave it to us (the early adopters) to help them work out the bugs. They will be fixed so hang in there.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Dmitry said:


> I live in San Jose, too and I work in Milpitas. Milpitas is much flatter compared to the San Jose area I live in. I can't get anything (analog or digital) on the first floor of my house, I can get some on the second floor, I imagine I could easily pull in everything with a bigger antenna on the roof, if I didn't have to fight HOA about it. A portable TV with built-in rabbit ears works great in the Milpitas office, so I imagine the terrain has a lot to do with it, especially since the Salinas broadcast which is 10 miles farther away from me is coming in much cleaner than the San Francisco one (but there aren't many tall buildings in that direction).


Yeah... plus Milpitas is about 10-20 miles closer to the transmitting towers depending on where you are than those in San jose, and don't have to try to pass through all of the tall buildings of downtown San Jose. Milpitas is about 30-35 miles from the towers (and has a clear shot across the bay at them.) That puts you JUST inside the limits of most indoor antennas if you have a clear shot. San Jose is 40-55 miles from the towers which is just a bit too far for an indoor antenna, especially with all the obstructions to the towers. From my dads house I can get a few channels with a SilverStar antenna, but not reliably... they constantly break up, from my house I get nothing.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Wrecker06 said:


> Grooves,
> 
> I sent an email to my contact at Echostar. I am experiencing the exact same thing as you are now. I am in Walnut Creek.
> 
> ...


All I know is it BETTER be fixed before football season starts!!!


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

grooves12 said:


> All I know is it BETTER be fixed before football season starts!!!


Grooves,
I got a similar reply to the one you got from DishQuality. "Man on the ground" sounds good. I have high hopes that they will fix the problem. I am just perplexed that it is taking so long. 
I am paying for a HD cable box and basic service, $20/month, in the interim. I would really like to get that off my monthly bill.


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

grooves12 said:


> Yeah... plus Milpitas is about 10-20 miles closer to the transmitting towers depending on where you are than those in San jose, and don't have to try to pass through all of the tall buildings of downtown San Jose. Milpitas is about 30-35 miles from the towers (and has a clear shot across the bay at them.) That puts you JUST inside the limits of most indoor antennas if you have a clear shot. San Jose is 40-55 miles from the towers which is just a bit too far for an indoor antenna, especially with all the obstructions to the towers. From my dads house I can get a few channels with a SilverStar antenna, but not reliably... they constantly break up, from my house I get nothing.


The Radio Shack 15-1880 indoor antenna that I use has a built in amp and for my area works great but if I turn the amp off I get nothing so if you are using a Silver Sensor antenna I believe they do not have an amp so it's more likely not to work. Like I said try the RS antenna, you can always return it and it might just work.

Laters,
Mikef5


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Football starts THIS sunday on NBC... :-(

I tend to agree with D* when they say part of the problem is with the local staion as I see smearing on the OTA channel as well...so its going to be even worse over h.264 and SAT.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Paradox-sj said:


> Football starts THIS sunday on NBC... :-(
> 
> I tend to agree with D* when they say part of the problem is with the local staion as I see smearing on the OTA channel as well...so its going to be even worse over h.264 and SAT.


I was able to get a solution to getting the locals OTA... and I must say you are right. KNTV is definately showing smearing OTA (at least on SD I haven't got a chance to watch anything in HD yet OTA)... so it looks like at least for KNTV we need to start directing a smattering of complaints to the local affiliate. Although I have a feeling they may fall on deaf ears.


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

grooves12 said:


> I was able to get a solution to getting the locals OTA... and I must say you are right. KNTV is definately showing smearing OTA (at least on SD I haven't got a chance to watch anything in HD yet OTA)... so it looks like at least for KNTV we need to start directing a smattering of complaints to the local affiliate. Although I have a feeling they may fall on deaf ears.


Here's a link to a Yahoo group that is for HD in the SF Bay Area, one of the members is a Richard Swank who is affiliated with KNTV ( Program manager I believe ) and he frequently is online there .... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HDTV-in-SFBay/

Laters,
Mikef5


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Mikef5 said:


> Here's a link to a Yahoo group that is for HD in the SF Bay Area, one of the members is a Richard Swank who is affiliated with KNTV ( Program manager I believe ) and he frequently is online there .... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HDTV-in-SFBay/
> 
> Laters,
> Mikef5


Thanks for the link... it appears that most of the issues we are seeing here are also being reported by OTA users... I just have a feeling they are bad sources that are being compounded by the additional layer of compression Dish is adding to send them over the Satellite.

The problem is, is that communication with the local channels usually doesn't go anywhere, because they could care less what their signal looks like because they have us by the balls. We can not get our signal from someone else because the FCC has done everything to make sure that is not possible.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Mikef5 said:


> Here's a link to a Yahoo group that is for HD in the SF Bay Area, one of the members is a Richard Swank who is affiliated with KNTV ( Program manager I believe ) and he frequently is online there .... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HDTV-in-SFBay/
> 
> Laters,
> Mikef5


I post there too but I thought Richard retired just after they finished buidling the new transmiter?

Anyway I think calls directly to the station could hurt either. Do they have a specific address for quality issues?

The smearing OTA I have see is HD. Watching the tonight show with Jay doing his monolog he had on a gray suit with pinstripes. As he moved, put hands in pocket, turn left and right the smearing is there and the pinstripes blured.

It may have to do with the low bandwidth they use coupled with running a subchannel. Like we dont have a thousand other places to get the weather.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Here is a link to their Contact us page: http://www.nbc11.com/contactus/index.html


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

Paradox-sj said:


> I post there too but I thought Richard retired just after they finished buidling the new transmiter?
> 
> Anyway I think calls directly to the station could hurt either. Do they have a specific address for quality issues?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if Mr. Swank retired or changed jobs in KNTV, I know that Larry Kennedy retired from KGO where he was an engineer there but still maintains contacts at the station. I know Mr. Swank takes great um-bridge if anyone says negative things about the station or says that they don't care about their signal quality. He's quite defensive about the station but really seems to care what the viewers think of the station and does try to get things changed when he can.

Laters,
Mikef5


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## Larry Kenney (Aug 19, 2005)

I was surprised to see my name mentioned on here in Mikef5's post. 

I've been keeping an eye on the SF HD channels and slowly but surely they are getting better.

I record both "The Tonight Show" and "David Letterman" every night, Monday through Friday, on my ViP-622. KPIX is better off Dish than KNTV, so I record it on 6439 and KNTV from OTA. KPIX has really been pretty good for quite a while now. Letterman has been perfectly watchable on my 34-inch Sony. It's not as sharp as the KPIX OTA signal, but it's not that bad.

Tonight I had some free time, so I did some watching of the other three HD channels via Dish. They really weren't that bad either... not up to the quality of the video from the OTA tuner, but nothing to complain about. I didn't see any audio sync problem on KGO on 6438, KTVU looked good during "Cops" on 6444 and I watched all of "Saturday Night Live" on 6440. The was a bit of pixelating but I've seen worse.

Maybe the Dish engineers will continue working to get the video a little sharper, but they have made some major improvements in recent weeks. Be sure to thank them for us, Wrecker.

As for the status of Richard Swank at KNTV.... he retired after completing the move of the channel 11 and 12 transmitters to Mt. San Bruno, but then they hired him back on a contractual basis as their transmitter engineer. He no longer works full time. Like most stations these days, the transmitters aren't manned, so he only has to do the weekly tests and regular maintenance. As Mike said, Richard often reads the comments on the Bay Area HD Yahoo Group. I don't know if he looks at this and the other boards or not.

I tend to check all of them to keep up on what's going on.

Larry
SF


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

Larry Kenney said:


> I was surprised to see my name mentioned on here in Mikef5's post.  SF


Hi Larry,

You shouldn't be surprised, any one with your experience working for a major network is a prime source of information. I have followed your advice in the Yahoo group and in the Avsforum and you have always given good, sound advice without bias. KGO use to be my favorite channel but here lately KPIX is really giving them a run for their money, wish KGO did move HD programing but for now KPIX beats just about all the local channels for HD content. Enjoy your retirement and I look forward to more of your input.

Laters,
Mikef5


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Anyone know when any sf local will begin broadcasting news in HD like they do in LA and Denver?


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

Wrecker06 said:


> Anyone know when any sf local will begin broadcasting news in HD like they do in LA and Denver?


You know KGO has a HD camera in their traffic helicopter. I think that's a total waste of resources, they should take that camera out of the copter and put it in the studio...... wait...... that would mean we would have to see Pete Wilson in HD... nnnnnnoooooooo !!!!!! :lol:

Laters,
Mikef5


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Mikef5 said:


> wait...... that would mean we would have to see Pete Wilson in HD... nnnnnnoooooooo !!!!!! :lol:
> 
> Laters,
> Mikef5


Hey that would be better than seeing "Botox O'Brien" (Leslie Griffith) from channel 2. Why does her voice drop 2 octives every 4th word?? She's really orange looking now - like an oompa loompa. I think she's had so much botox that she need to bat her eyelashes by hand. :grin:


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## davidxlai (Jan 21, 2006)

Hey hey, go easy on Leslie. She is a nice lady who raised a few foster kids.


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## Larry Kenney (Aug 19, 2005)

Mikef5 said:


> You shouldn't be surprised, any one with your experience working for a major network is a prime source of information. I have followed your advice in the Yahoo group and in the Avsforum and you have always given good, sound advice without bias. Mikef5


Thanks, Mike. I appreciate the compliments! I'm still in contact with the engineering staff at KGO and pass on word of any KGO problems mentioned on the forums. They all say they don't have time to read the message boards, so I keep them updated. I hope it's helping to get the problems solved quicker.



Wrecker06 said:


> Anyone know when any sf local will begin broadcasting news in HD like they do in LA and Denver?


I know that all of the ABC O&O's have HD news in their plans, but when each station will go HD will depend on budget approval. All funds spent by the locals have to be approved by the folks in NY.

KABC in LA was the first ABC O&O to go HD and I understand that the Philadelphia ABC O&O just started with local HD news. I haven't heard anything about when KGO will get the money for the new equipment.

I read that all CBS O&O's would be going HD for their local news this year, but I haven't heard of any actually going on the air yet.

I suspect that it'll be a toss up between KGO and KPIX as to who gets on with HD news first. At least KGO has HD in Sky7... and it looks really good live. Wish they wouldn't label the recorded signal as HD though, cuz it's no longer HD after it hits their server.

Larry
SF


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

davidxlai said:


> Hey hey, go easy on Leslie. She is a nice lady who raised a few foster kids.


I'm sure she's very nice, she just looks weird.


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## elbodude (Jul 13, 2006)

Wrecker06 said:


> I'm sure she's very nice, she just looks weird.


I agree. Her voice octave change IS annoying!

Anyhow, I just made the switch from D* to E* with an install date of Thursday the 10th. I am getting scared about the posts in this forum, but D* is killing me so I pulled the trigger. I am getting a 622 and a 625 for my two SD sets. I am coming from an HR10-250 TiVo box. They tell me I am getting a Dish1000. I will post my results as I am in Santa Clara and slightly concerned about what I am reading here about the HD local issues.

-elbo


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## davidxlai (Jan 21, 2006)

elbodude said:


> Anyhow, I just made the switch from D* to E* with an install date of Thursday the 10th. I am getting scared about the posts in this forum, but D* is killing me so I pulled the trigger. I am getting a 622 and a 625 for my two SD sets. I am coming from an HR10-250 TiVo box. They tell me I am getting a Dish1000. I will post my results as I am in Santa Clara and slightly concerned about what I am reading here about the HD local issues.
> -elbo


Good move. I live in Danville so there is no way for me to get OTA signal. The local HDs are decent now with the exception of KNTV, which has improved over the last couple of weeks. KGO's lip sync issue seemed to have been fixed.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

What did you guys think of Sunday Night Football? (For those that watched it?)


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## Gottria (Aug 6, 2006)

HEy elbo, let me know how you like it. I'm with D*, no HR10 but 2 Tivo units zippered, and have been debating on switching to E* for the HD package. I'm a bit more north in Castro Valley.


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## GeeWhiz1 (Dec 6, 2005)

Paradox-sj said:


> What did you guys think of Sunday Night Football? (For those that watched it?)


I haven't really commented in this thread because I don't watch that much on the locals. But I did watch the game.

Frankly, it looked great. I was watching out for any jitter, jutter or whatever it might be called. But I didn't see any. There were a couple times when the screen went blank for a couple of seconds, but it came right back. I was pleased after all the comments about how bad KNTV has been.


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## Dmitry (Jun 12, 2006)

GeeWhiz1 said:


> I haven't really commented in this thread because I don't watch that much on the locals. But I did watch the game.
> 
> Frankly, it looked great. I was watching out for any jitter, jutter or whatever it might be called. But I didn't see any. There were a couple times when the screen went blank for a couple of seconds, but it came right back. I was pleased after all the comments about how bad KNTV has been.


Any time they were showing the bird's view of the field, it looked great, but any close-up shot looked like it went through a watercolor effect filter.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

elbodude said:


> I agree. Her voice octave change IS annoying!
> 
> Anyhow, I just made the switch from D* to E* with an install date of Thursday the 10th. I am getting scared about the posts in this forum, but D* is killing me so I pulled the trigger. I am getting a 622 and a 625 for my two SD sets. I am coming from an HR10-250 TiVo box. They tell me I am getting a Dish1000. I will post my results as I am in Santa Clara and slightly concerned about what I am reading here about the HD local issues.
> 
> -elbo


The 622 is working great now with the software updates. No more buggy than my old HR 10-250 w/ DirecTv was. Pretty similar bugs actually, but once you get past the differences in the UI, I think you'll find the 622 better..

Don't be scared about the posts you're reading. Dish has a team in SF working on it. They replaced some equipment, and from what I've been told, the ABC Audio issue seems to be fixed for the moment.

The picture quality is an issue with the source feeds from the networks, all providers (dish, comcast & direcTV and even OTA) are experiencing the same issues. IE: kntv smearing. I can say that this is being worked on as well an changes are in the works. So hang in there.

Bottom line, you'll be much happier w/ Dish because they actually care about their customers. When you complain to DirecTv you get a CSR in India, when you complain to Dish, if it's warranted you get an Engineer or someone from the CEO's office calling you. GREAT!


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## HD_Wayne (May 23, 2006)

I think we will all have to get used to it, at least some lip sync issues. I even notice lip sync problems on analog cable. The Hallmark channel is particulary noticable on the commercials.

Wayne


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

GeeWhiz1 said:


> I haven't really commented in this thread because I don't watch that much on the locals. But I did watch the game.
> 
> Frankly, it looked great. I was watching out for any jitter, jutter or whatever it might be called. But I didn't see any. There were a couple times when the screen went blank for a couple of seconds, but it came right back. I was pleased after all the comments about how bad KNTV has been.


The NBC feed was a national feed, not a KNTV feed.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

HD_Wayne said:


> I think we will all have to get used to it, at least some lip sync issues. I even notice lip sync problems on analog cable. The Hallmark channel is particulary noticable on the commercials.
> 
> Wayne


Are you noticing any issues today??? They made some pretty significant changes overnight and said the ABC feeds audio has been holding up today.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

HD_Wayne said:


> I think we will all have to get used to it, at least some lip sync issues. I even notice lip sync problems on analog cable. The Hallmark channel is particulary noticable on the commercials.
> 
> Wayne


You watch analog? Say it aint so. (j/k)

Most newer recievers have some sort of lip syncing feature that is helpful. The 622even has a lip sync default setting that you can change. Cant remember what the menue setting is though but you can set it ofr SD or HD.

So if you have not tried either one of the above you may have some luck.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Wrecker06 said:


> The NBC feed was a national feed, not a KNTV feed.


So does this mean that the local station just 'passes through' and doesnt do any processing to the signal?

One of the MAIN reason NBC11 has an issue is they run a sub channel coupled with being a 1080i station. This limits the bandwidth for the .1 HD broadcast. I have read Mr. Swanks arugments why this should be an issue but ones eye dont lie.

So lets hope they can fix the smearing problem but until the either turn of the subchannel during HD broadcast or all together they will never look as good as CBS.


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## Dmitry (Jun 12, 2006)

Wrecker06 said:


> Bottom line, you'll be much happier w/ Dish because they actually care about their customers. When you complain to DirecTv you get a CSR in India, when you complain to Dish, if it's warranted you get an Engineer or someone from the CEO's office calling you. GREAT!


No argument there -- by far the best CS I've dealt with over the last few years. The usual scenario with (insert company name here) is when you call CS they can't solve the problem, promise to call back and never do... Dish does call back and the person who calls actually has helpful information on hand.


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## elbodude (Jul 13, 2006)

Wrecker06 said:


> The 622 is working great now with the software updates. No more buggy than my old HR 10-250 w/ DirecTv was. Pretty similar bugs actually, but once you get past the differences in the UI, I think you'll find the 622 better..
> 
> Don't be scared about the posts you're reading. Dish has a team in SF working on it. They replaced some equipment, and from what I've been told, the ABC Audio issue seems to be fixed for the moment.
> 
> ...


Well, the installer came by yesterday and set me up with a Dish1000 and a 622 and a 625. The picture quality on SD and HD is noticeably better than D*. The HD in particular is outstanding compared to D*. I do see the smearing on KNTV/NBC HD, but I was not able to get NBC HD with D*, so I am not really complaining. The other local HD stations looked and sounded great. The NFL game on FOX was perfect. I am happy I made the switch. Coming from the HD TiVO, it will take some time to get used to the 622, but it seems like a capable unit.

Once again, I am in Santa Clara and I seem to be able to get good readings on all Sats with the one Dish1000.

-elbo


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## Larry Kenney (Aug 19, 2005)

Welcome to Dish Network, Elbo! 

I did some comparison viewing of the four HD locals today and I was quite impressed by what I saw. Even KNTV looked good during the NASCAR race, and that has a lot of action. I didn't notice any smearing like in the past. It's still not OTA quality, but I doubt it ever will be.

By the way, the short periods of black from KNTV are coming from the station. It has nothing to do with E*. It's been an ongoing problem for about two weeks now. I don't know if it's a local problem or network. Some others from across the country have been reporting problems with NBC, too, but I'm not sure its the same thing. Sure is obnoxious!

Larry
SF


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Wrecker06 said:


> The picture quality is an issue with the source feeds from the networks, all providers (dish, comcast & direcTV and even OTA) are experiencing the same issues. IE: kntv smearing. I can say that this is being worked on as well an changes are in the works. So hang in there.


I wouldn't call the problem 100% with the source. Because the source picture is watchable, and it does not exhibit the problem in the same way. A week or so ago, I noticed some smearing OTA, but that is now pretty much gone, and the problem still exists on the Dish feeds.

What I HAVE noticed is that the feeds that have the smearing tend to have a "grainy" look to them when received OTA compared to the other HD channels that do not exhibit this problem. Sort of like the grain from a film when you watch a movie at the theater. This grain is MIA on the same channel received via the satellite. My guess is that since grain/noise does not compress well, that during the processing and conversion to Mpeg4, the Dish hardware is applying some kind of blur or edge enhance filter to make the signal more compressible and that is leading to the "smearing" effect we are seeing.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

grooves12 said:


> I wouldn't call the problem 100% with the source. Because the source picture is watchable, and it does not exhibit the problem in the same way. A week or so ago, I noticed some smearing OTA, but that is now pretty much gone, and the problem still exists on the Dish feeds.
> 
> What I HAVE noticed is that the feeds that have the smearing tend to have a "grainy" look to them when received OTA compared to the other HD channels that do not exhibit this problem. Sort of like the grain from a film when you watch a movie at the theater. This grain is MIA on the same channel received via the satellite. My guess is that since grain/noise does not compress well, that during the processing and conversion to Mpeg4, the Dish hardware is applying some kind of blur or edge enhance filter to make the signal more compressible and that is leading to the "smearing" effect we are seeing.


You can't make candy from cement (ie: you make a crap feed too much better than it is) Specifically, the KNTV OTA signals are just as bad as Dish's feed. Dish Engineers are actually recording OTA streams and Dish's streams at the same time to go to each station with. In the case of KGO, they (KGO) have been working on the phone with Dish Engineers in real time to fix the audio sync issues (and all weekend it held up!!! much appreciated). Some issues are with the Dish guys who have been tweaking things and already replacing the brand new encoders (I think that's what they said they were doing).

But like I said, with KNTV and the smearing problem, it's 99% KNTV's source feed. The other 1% is probably Dish's compression/encoders, etc.

I wish there was a way to report KNTV to the FCC and actually force them to fix it. They seem like they just don't give a s**t. I've sent emails to them, and they basically tell me to go screw myself in their replies. Saying they are within' the FCC guidelines. Maybe someone will suffer a seizure from watching their feeds, that would be awesome (bad for the person... great for publicity).

I seriously hope NBC pulls their affiliation next year. If I remember correctly when it was pulled from KRON and given to KNTV in San Jose, it was for a 5 year license which should be up next year. Maybe if we all start complaining to NBC, they'll do something. Ever since they took over from KRON, they've been the worst station in terms of PQ in the Bay Area.

Rumor has it that KPIX & KGO will go HD for local news in October. KGO has started advertising their HD News and HD chopper.


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## bobl (Jan 17, 2004)

NBC isn't going to pull KNTV's feed. NBC owns KNTV while KRON was simply an affiliate. NBC wanted an owned and operated station in the sixth largest market in the country and that has a lot to do with why NBC is now on KNTV instead of KRON. Originally NBC tried to buy KRON but the price was too high for them.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

bobl said:


> NBC isn't going to pull KNTV's feed. NBC owns KNTV while KRON was simply an affiliate. NBC wanted an owned and operated station in the sixth largest market in the country and that has a lot to do with why NBC is now on KNTV instead of KRON. Originally NBC tried to buy KRON but the price was too high for them.


Regardless of who owns what, the fact still remains NBC is the worst digital transmission in the bay area.

One of the reason is they are running a sub-channel AND they are 1080i. 
ABC and FOX both run subs but they are 720p...and yes there picture quality decreased when they started running the subchannel as well but they are not as drasticly affected as a 1080i station is as they dont need a much bandwidth.

What else is casuing the smeaing, pixelating and just bad picture quality at NBC11 is beyond me but the should start by turning of the sub during primetime broadcast. IMO


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Wrecker06 said:


> But like I said, with KNTV and the smearing problem, it's 99% KNTV's source feed. The other 1% is probably Dish's compression/encoders, etc.


I disagree... KNTV's OTA does not look as good as the other OTA channels, but it is a LOT better than the dish feed. I would say it is 10-20% KNTV, 80-90% Dish.


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## HD_Wayne (May 23, 2006)

Paradox-sj said:


> You watch analog? Say it aint so. (j/k)


We still have analog cable here mostly for my Dad (who is 92) and has not figured out how to operate the sat system. Since I slready have the analog service I don't need to subscribe to the 180 channel pkg. If it was only me I would ditch the cable and go with only Sat TV.

Wayne


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

grooves12 said:


> I disagree... KNTV's OTA does not look as good as the other OTA channels, but it is a LOT better than the dish feed. I would say it is 10-20% KNTV, 80-90% Dish.


So I guess we can all agree with the saying grabage in garbage out.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

> Specifically, the KNTV OTA signals are just as bad as Dish's feed.


 I've never seen the KNTV OTA feed (11-1), but I've seen the feed of channel 11 as a sub-channel of KTST (48-2). In short, the signal is many times better than what dish offers, which is bad to the point of distracting. Fortunately, as long as I can see 48-2 from my house, I'll be okay when the TV season starts (although it would be ideal if I could get the 622 to recognize that 48-2 should have the same programming as 11-0).


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Paradox-sj said:


> So I guess we can all agree with the saying grabage in garbage out.


Yeah, I just wish it wasn't garbage in, garbage X10 out.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

grooves12 said:


> I disagree... KNTV's OTA does not look as good as the other OTA channels, but it is a LOT better than the dish feed. I would say it is 10-20% KNTV, 80-90% Dish.


I'm sure it does for you. YOU LIVE IN SAN JOSE. I'm in Walnut Creek. TONS of mountains and hill between San Jose and WC


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Lyle_JP said:


> I've never seen the KNTV OTA feed (11-1), but I've seen the feed of channel 11 as a sub-channel of KTST (48-2). In short, the signal is many times better than what dish offers, which is bad to the point of distracting. Fortunately, as long as I can see 48-2 from my house, I'll be okay when the TV season starts (although it would be ideal if I could get the 622 to recognize that 48-2 should have the same programming as 11-0).


I thought they (NBC11) stopped broadcasting on 48.2 when the moved to their new transmiter. Have you tried 48.2 lately?


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

Paradox-sj said:


> I thought they (NBC11) stopped broadcasting on 48.2 when the moved to their new transmiter. Have you tried 48.2 lately?


Did they? _Crap!_ I haven't actually checked since I had a Samsung STB (more than a year ago), and now that I have the 622 I was going to put a UHF roof antenna up for it. But if it's not there, it's not worth climbing up on the roof for. 

Still, I remember the PQ being much better than I'm seeing on Dish. The MPEG4 motion blurring is annoying. I can even still see it on Starz HD (although there it is much less pronounced).


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Lyle_JP said:


> Did they? _Crap!_ I haven't actually checked since I had a Samsung STB (more than a year ago), and now that I have the 622 I was going to put a UHF roof antenna up for it. But if it's not there, it's not worth climbing up on the roof for.
> 
> Still, I remember the PQ being much better than I'm seeing on Dish. The MPEG4 motion blurring is annoying. I can even still see it on Starz HD (although there it is much less pronounced).


I pull in 11.1 with a CM4228 and I am in Willow Glen and my brother in Cambrian (leigh and 85) uses (now dont laugh casue it actually works) a little Radio Shack powered attena like the square shooter.

So not knowing what part of the bay area you are in I cant say how you will do but it seem fairly easy from San Jose.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

> So not knowing what part of the bay area you are in I cant say how you will do but it seem fairly easy from San Jose.


I'm in Danville, just east of 680. If it's on Sutro, I've got 0% chance of receiving it. Also, I could never pull in analog 11 so I have no high hopes of pulling in 12 (where 11-1 is located). I loved 11 being on 48-2, since it was being broadcast from the Fremont hills, which I've got a nearly straight shot to, reception-wise.

Oh yeah, forget about Sacramento OTA. I have a little thing called Mt. Diablo right smack in between me and Walnut Grove.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Lyle_JP said:


> Did they? _Crap!_ I haven't actually checked since I had a Samsung STB (more than a year ago), and now that I have the 622 I was going to put a UHF roof antenna up for it. But if it's not there, it's not worth climbing up on the roof for.
> 
> Still, I remember the PQ being much better than I'm seeing on Dish. The MPEG4 motion blurring is annoying. I can even still see it on Starz HD (although there it is much less pronounced).


Not to be a dick or anything, but if you haven't seen something in over a year, please don't comment on something that is a CURRENT problem.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

Wrecker06 said:


> Not to be a dick or anything, but if you haven't seen something in over a year, please don't comment on something that is a CURRENT problem.


Thanks, Dick. And the uglies on Dish's KNTV-DT are _still_ a current problem. My sister has Comcast and I can clearly see that their picture is better. The only thing not current in my post was the presence of KNTV 11 on 48.2. :nono:


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## NurseDave (Aug 20, 2006)

I'm thinking about switching from D* to Dish. I'm thinking the assumption is while this problem is an annoying PITA, E* wouldn't let it rest and at some point it will be fixed?


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Lyle_JP said:


> Thanks, Dick. And the uglies on Dish's KNTV-DT are _still_ a current problem. My sister has Comcast and I can clearly see that their picture is better. The only thing not current in my post was the presence of KNTV 11 on 48.2. :nono:


Still applies, don't comment if you're basing your opinions on something that has been over a year ago vs. current issues. I actually have Comcast HD & Dish Network HD and can constantly compare apples to apples. And while you may have seen a good broadcast at your sisters house one or two times, KNTV-HD is not that really much better than Dish's. (even though I belive Comcast has a direct feed) Still smeary and plus it has worse tiling because of the Comcast bandwidth issues in the Bay Area. :eek2: Plus their SD version of KNTV has much worse PQ than Dish. :nono:


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

NurseDave said:


> I'm thinking about switching from D* to Dish. I'm thinking the assumption is while this problem is an annoying PITA, E* wouldn't let it rest and at some point it will be fixed?


I don't know... until the problem is fixed it is all talk.

The lip sync issue is still coming and going, and the picture quality is as bad as ever on KNTV, has been consistenyly getting worse on KPIX, and just last night I started to notice slight smearing creeping in on KTVU's picture.

KNTV's OTA broadcast is not of the highest quality to start with, but Dish's retransmission is MUCH worse, and they can't use the same excuse for KPIX and KTVU.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

grooves12 said:


> I don't know... until the problem is fixed it is all talk.
> 
> The lip sync issue is still coming and going, and the picture quality is as bad as ever on KNTV, has been consistenyly getting worse on KPIX, and just last night I started to notice slight smearing creeping in on KTVU's picture.
> 
> KNTV's OTA broadcast is not of the highest quality to start with, but Dish's retransmission is MUCH worse, and they can't use the same excuse for KPIX and KTVU.


Dish thinks it has came up with a rememdy that they are testing in another market with similar problems and it seems to have fixed the issue and actually improved the signal. Cross your fingers it works.

Agree with you on KPIX.


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

Wrecker06 said:


> Dish thinks it has came up with a rememdy that they are testing in another market with similar problems and it seems to have fixed the issue and actually improved the signal. Cross your fingers it works.


I'll cross my fingers but I'm not going to hold my breath just yet.

I still have basic cable with a HD box for $20 total so I can watch KNTV and the other channels without the artifacts that Dish is dishing out to us at present.


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## NurseDave (Aug 20, 2006)

So are the SD locals fine in the bay area?


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

> So are the SD locals fine in the bay area?


They're about as good as locals from Dish in any other DMA (soft, overcompressed, but acceptable).


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Wrecker06 said:


> Dish thinks it has came up with a rememdy that they are testing in another market with similar problems and it seems to have fixed the issue and actually improved the signal. Cross your fingers it works.
> 
> Agree with you on KPIX.


I dont understand this as the problem can be seen on Cable, OTA as well as dish retransmission. What can dish do to fix something that is not their problem?


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Paradox-sj said:


> I dont understand this as the problem can be seen on Cable, OTA as well as dish retransmission. What can dish do to fix something that is not their problem?


According to my contact in Dish Engineering, they have discovered a way to clean it up. I think he said that is has the engineers even at other companies taking note and working together on it. I'll clarify when I email him next.

he said that in a market w/ similar problems to SF, they took one of the worst smearing channels (like KNTV) and did something with the signal and now their testing says it looks the best. And that it's holding the signal or something. I'll see if I can get more information.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

I believe KNTVs transmision stream is not fully ATSC compliant. It is the only channel my Panasonic DST50, first OTA tuner, has problems with.


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## davidxlai (Jan 21, 2006)

Hey, KNTV is looking much better tonight.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

davidxlai said:


> Hey, KNTV is looking much better tonight.


You're actually right, it looks just as good as the OTA signal tonight, I don't notice any lip sync issues on the other channels either.

Lets hope these fixes hold as they have been coming and going in the past, but if this holds up I qill be the first to applaud Dish for their efforts.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Told ya.  

The only reason I didn't drop dish like a whore in church was because of the engineering team keeping in contact with me and letting me know what they were doing. It's a rare find to see a company go to such great lengths to keep their customers. I actually think Dish cares about their customers and no matter what, I'll stick with them now because I know they really do listen and even though it may take a while, things get fixed.

So let's all keep our fingers crossed that these fixes hold. They said they've came up with some new audio fixes that seem to be holding also in other markets, so hopefully it will fix SF also.


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## gsalem (Feb 4, 2004)

Paradox-sj said:


> I dont understand this as the problem can be seen on Cable, OTA as well as dish retransmission. What can dish do to fix something that is not their problem?


That is not the case. * At least for the lip-sync issue. *

OTA on my 921 was perfect for lip-sync on the channels
I could receive. It is not the content.

George


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

I'm now holding my breath to see if the fixes hold.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

gsalem said:


> That is not the case. * At least for the lip-sync issue. *
> 
> OTA on my 921 was perfect for lip-sync on the channels
> I could receive. It is not the content.
> ...


No, when the lip sync is off, they just have to reset the feed. They did this with me on the phone and live while I was watching TV one day. The audio was out of sync and then they said, you're going to see the screen go black for a split second. Sure enough the screen went "blink" and in less than 1 second it was back up and the audio was back in sync. I'm guessing the fix they've come up with is some type of audio analyzer that will automatically reset the feeds occasionally. I'm sure it has to be much more than that. But for the last 5 or 6 days, I haven't noticed any audio sync issues.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

gsalem said:


> That is not the case. * At least for the lip-sync issue. *
> 
> OTA on my 921 was perfect for lip-sync on the channels
> I could receive. It is not the content.
> ...


We have not been refering to the lip-sync issue but to the smearing.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

grooves12 said:


> You're actually right, it looks just as good as the OTA signal tonight, I don't notice any lip sync issues on the other channels either.
> 
> Lets hope these fixes hold as they have been coming and going in the past, but if this holds up I qill be the first to applaud Dish for their efforts.


I am going to puke (being overly dramatic) if someone again says Sat delieved HD locals look as good as OTA.

First off that is not even possiable due to bandwidth constraints and other technical limitations

Secondly consider the TV YOU are watching. Whats size is it and what is its native resolution? For those watching big screens 55" and up with native 1080p...its a very unforgiving experience with marginal quality signals.

I am not saying it hasnt improved as I didnt watch Leno last night but lets be realistic here...It will be sometime before SAT can deliever the same quality as OTA HD.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Paradox-sj said:


> I am going to puke (being overly dramatic) if someone again says Sat delieved HD locals look as good as OTA.
> 
> First off that is not even possiable due to bandwidth constraints and other technical limitations
> 
> ...


You can puke all you want... but I am not VERY forgiving when it comes to picture quality, and I am watching on a 55" 1080i television, sitting at less than 10 ft away, and it looks just as good as the OTA. I can see a difference between the two, but it is slight, and one is not worse than the other, just different. About the only difference I can see is that the OTA signal has some "grain" in the picture. Grain does not compress well, so it looks like that are applying a filter to that before attempting to compress it. But, I don't see any loss of details (small pinstripes on business suits/sports uniforms are just as clear, can see just as many fine lines/wrinkles/blemishes in peoples' faces, and see the same detail in grass/dirt on sports playing fields) and in fact I sort of prefer the cleaned up picture, because no (or very little) detail is being lost in the process.

When it comes to KNTV however... that doesn't mean that it is perfect. The OTA signal isn't very good to begin with. So, the bar isn't set very high.

We'll see with tonight's HD broadcasts, but last night KNTV looked "just as good" as OTA, which is not great, but a huge improvement. KGO and KNTV both looked great as they have for some time, and audio sync was minimal if not non-existant on KGO. KPIX was still exhibiting the slight smearing/blurring that has crept up in the last few weeks. I wish that it would be fixed, but it is at least liveable, unlike the KNTV issue, the past few weeks.

Hopefully, KNTV's issue is fixed for good...


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Paradox-sj said:


> I am going to puke (being overly dramatic) if someone again says Sat delieved HD locals look as good as OTA.
> 
> First off that is not even possiable due to bandwidth constraints and other technical limitations
> 
> ...


Wow, hostile much? Are you basing this assesment on something you've seen recently or last year?? Based on the KNTV OTA feed we currently see, the Dish signal is just as good. If you love OTA so much, why are watching Dish locals??


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

I have to admit. It looks like the smearing on KNTV is fixed. Picture was just fine for my old eyes and as good as the OTA from KNTV. OTA here is iffy and cannot be relied on especially if you are going to record it which is why I am happy the Dish supplied KNTV is now watchable.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

I watched Leno on KNTV last night. It looked fantastic. Rock solid. Then I took a look at the Today Show this morning. Looked great as well, which tells me things have really improved (the smearing always seemed to be _worse _with upconverted SD stuff). Kudos to Dish for fixing this nicely. I am ready for the Fall Premieres now! 

P.S. Whoops, forgot to mention KGO. I caught a bit of George Lopez last night, and it seemed like the audio sync was still a hair off. It's far better than it's been, but still not 100%. Still, now that I have seen the KNTV fix, I have confidence that Dish can lick this problem as well.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Lyle_JP said:


> I watched Leno on KNTV last night. It looked fantastic. Rock solid. Then I took a look at the Today Show this morning. Looked great as well, which tells me things have really improved (the smearing always seemed to be _worse _with upconverted SD stuff). Kudos to Dish for fixing this nicely. I am ready for the Fall Premieres now!
> 
> P.S. Whoops, forgot to mention KGO. I caught a bit of George Lopez last night, and it seemed like the audio sync was still a hair off. It's far better than it's been, but still not 100%. Still, now that I have seen the KNTV fix, I have confidence that Dish can lick this problem as well.


Yeah, KNTV seems to be fixed... KPIX was still showing some minor smearing/blurring that wasn't there before, but "The Young and the Restless" in HD looked great this morning. All channels are now good enough that I changed my favorite from the OTA feed to the Dish feed.


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## davidxlai (Jan 21, 2006)

For CBS shows I tune to channel 9484 (KCBS-HD from Los Angeles). I had that before the SF local HDs were available. This channel's HD quality is as good as HBO's. Quite a bit better than KPIX.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

Dish is getting there but they still need to tweak. It still is not as sharp as OTA. Doesn't seem to have as much resolution. It is close but not quite there. Maybe they are over compressing. There are pixels visible and slight banding. I didn't notice this with HD-DVD but its stream is 26mb/s or so I believe. BTW this is KGO/Kyle-720p, I need to check 1080i stations. however, taking an ATSC stream and converting it to MPG4, this may be as good as they can do. If they could get a direct by wire stream like cable maybe it would be better. I'm glad the 622 has an OTA tuner.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

1080i is very close but no cigar also. Those without top of the line HDTVs may not see the difference.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

HDlover said:


> 1080i is very close but no cigar also. Those without top of the line HDTVs probably won't see the difference.


Haha... that is funny... people that actually know what they are talking about will tell you that there is NO difference between a 1080i television and 1080p television when it comes to picture quality of a 1080i signal. In fact most "videophiles" still prefer a 1080i CRT picture over anything else that is currently available. The Hype of 1080p has NOTHING to do with it being superior, it has to do with differences in how the different display technologies work. DLP/LCOS CAN'T show an interlaced picture... they call them 1080p because it HAS TO convert an interlaced signal into a progressive one before it can display it. But, you will not see any incereased resolution or detail with a 1080p picture over a 1080i one... in fact in most cases you will see LESS because the television is doing post processing to the picture during the conversion to 1080p.

In fact part of the reason you are seeing such drastic differences between OTA and Dish provided signals on a 1080p set is because of the fact that post-processing is now occuring twice with Dish's signal vs. once with OTA, and they could be using conflicting algorithms that results in overprocessing of the picture and making it look poor.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

I hope you aren't insinuating I don't know what I am talking about. You know what the catch phrase for assuming things is don't you? I happen to have a 1080i CRT-RPTV with 9" guns. I'm wondering if people with microdisplays, 720p and 1080p, can see the difference. If you do, please post here so Dish will take notice and improve it further. Yes, as I said, the processing of OTA could be the difference. However, upconverted DVD on my set seems less pixelated with no banding. I hope it is just further tweeking that needs doing. I believe my upconverting DVD player assigns, interpolates, a color for every pixel. I wonder if the conversion Dish is using does this. Then again maybe MPG4 doesn't have this ability.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

HDlover said:


> I hope you aren't insinuating I don't know what I am talking about. You know what the catch phrase for assuming things is don't you? I happen to have a 1080i CRT-RPTV with 9" guns. I'm wondering if people with microdisplays, 720p and 1080p, can see the difference. If you do, please post here so Dish will take notice and improve it further. Yes, as I said, the processing of OTA could be the difference. However, upconverted DVD on my set seems less pixelated with no banding. I hope it is just further tweeking that needs doing. I believe my upconverting DVD player assigns, interpolates, a color for every pixel. I wonder if the conversion Dish is using does this. Then again maybe MPG4 doesn't have this ability.


Grooves does that a lot. There's one in every class.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

When I say the PQ is close, I mean real close. Color rendition, brightness and contrast are spot on. IE, it is very good now.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

HDlover said:


> I hope you aren't insinuating I don't know what I am talking about. You know what the catch phrase for assuming things is don't you? I happen to have a 1080i CRT-RPTV with 9" guns. I'm wondering if people with microdisplays, 720p and 1080p, can see the difference. If you do, please post here so Dish will take notice and improve it further. Yes, as I said, the processing of OTA could be the difference. However, upconverted DVD on my set seems less pixelated with no banding. I hope it is just further tweeking that needs doing. I believe my upconverting DVD player assigns, interpolates, a color for every pixel. I wonder if the conversion Dish is using does this. Then again maybe MPG4 doesn't have this ability.


I guess I misunderstood the context of your post, it seemed to indicate you thought 1080i was not "high quality" enough to see a difference...


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

I was refering to 1080i broadcast OTA, KPIX in particular but the 720p OTA channels are the same way in closeness.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

Well, tonight's sound synch issues on KGO are the worst I've ever seen. The delay on 20/20 looks almost like a full second! Not only do words not match lips, but now the sound is so late that dialog doesn't even match the same _mouths _speaking it! Sound is so delayed that even scene transitions become confusing and hard to follow, since every sound corresponds to something no longer on screen.

If this is the way it's going to be, it looks like all of my ABC recordings will be in standard dedfinition this season. It's a shame, too. I was really looking forward to Grey's Anatomy and Lost in HD this year.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

They're aware of it. Hopefully it's been fixed already. Don't be a fatalist. Just because the sync went out last night doesn't mean it's going to be out for the entire season of Grey's Anatomy and Lost. You don't know what happened. Clearly they have a fix in place, as has been demonstrated for the last week or so, could have just been a fluke last night. 

That's like saying, "Damn, the Giants lost the first game after a great season last year. And I was really looking forward to the Super Bowl". Have some faith grasshopper.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

> That's like saying, "Damn, the Giants lost the first game after a great season last year. And I was really looking forward to the Super Bowl". Have some faith grasshopper.


Wrecker06,

This is not a new problem. This has existed since Dish started carrying KGO-DT months ago. The problem is still there. Last night it was the worse I'd ever seen it. Usually it is annoying. Last night it was unwatchable. But even if they restore it to its merely "annoying" state, the problem is still there. It has _never_ been fixed that I have seen. Not once have I seen KGO-DT perfectly in sync on Dish. How's that football analogy looking now?


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

The 720P station have been doing preaty good pic quality wise but last night ABC had a reall issue. Not sure what changed but I hope they work it out.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Lyle_JP said:


> Wrecker06,
> 
> This is not a new problem. This has existed since Dish started carrying KGO-DT months ago. The problem is still there. Last night it was the worse I'd ever seen it. Usually it is annoying. Last night it was unwatchable. But even if they restore it to its merely "annoying" state, the problem is still there. It has _never_ been fixed that I have seen. Not once have I seen KGO-DT perfectly in sync on Dish. How's that football analogy looking now?


Well, the problem was CONSTANT for a while... but since a few of us have been in contact with the engineers, it has improved immensely. I HAVE seen it where it is perfectly in sync and it has been synced more often than not the last few weeks. The problem is that it comes and goes... and recently when it came it was much closer. But, I agree with you it was HORRIBLE the other night. But, they are aware of the problem and hopefully will soon come up with a fix that sticks. They did a good job getting the video hammered out... and it still seems to improve night to night, with all channels looking excellent to my eyes, with the exception of KNTV... but their OTA reception isn't very good either, so you can't blame Dish much for that one.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

> They did a good job getting the video hammered out... and it still seems to improve night to night, with all channels looking excellent to my eyes, with the exception of KNTV... but their OTA reception isn't very good either, so you can't blame Dish much for that one.


grooves,

You know, it's funny. To my eyes, it seems that Fox has been the channel to slip the most in PQ lately. Watching Bones last night, I saw a lot of the MPEG4 ghosting (or trailing) that used to be really common on Starz HD. I hadn't really seen that on KTVU before. On the other hand, Leno and Conan looked picture perfect last night. I really couldn't find a thing wrong with KNTV's PQ.

I guess the lesson is that the PQ on all four channels will fluctuate a bit until Dish finally has everything set the way they need it. They have three weeks before the premieres begin in earnest. Let's hope they're on the ball.

As for KGO, well, as I said, I've never actually seen it perfectly in sync, but if you say it has been then I believe you. Let's hope they can make it stick permanently.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Lyle_JP said:


> Wrecker06,
> 
> This is not a new problem. This has existed since Dish started carrying KGO-DT months ago. The problem is still there. Last night it was the worse I'd ever seen it. Usually it is annoying. Last night it was unwatchable. But even if they restore it to its merely "annoying" state, the problem is still there. It has _never_ been fixed that I have seen. Not once have I seen KGO-DT perfectly in sync on Dish. How's that football analogy looking now?


Didn't say it was a new problem. I said they clearly have a fix in place as it has been working for the last few weeks. It was off for one night, seems to have been fixed again. The football analogy looks pretty strong still. You frequently over-react in your posts and seem to take a fatalist approach in most of your postings. Apparently you must have a bionic eye that see things that nobody else notices, or you're just look for the flaws to complain about something. I'm guessing you watch it in slow motion and focus that bionic eye on their lips and listen to the audio.

You say you have never seen KGO perfectly insync, when a lot of us say it has been. Yes it has had it's problems, but it has also been perfectly insync recently. Dish has a dedicated team in SF working with the broadcasters fix all of the issues.

Bottom line is if you're so unhappy with the PQ and Audio, then cancel your account and go OTA.

When I created this thread, I received a call from Dish Engineers who still actually call me frequently and ask for live feedback on what I'm seeing in regards to audio/picture quality. They make adjustments on the fly while I'm on the phone sometimes. I have never seen a company do that for their customers, let alone 1 customer. So if the audio slips for one night, big deal. They're a class act in my book (maybe not in Tivo's book), but they are in mine.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

> Bottom line is if you're so unhappy with the PQ and Audio, then cancel your account and go OTA.


If OTA was even remotely an option for me I would have no reason to complain. But not everyone in the Bay Area can get signals from Sutro tower.

I'm sorry you dislike like my posts so much. You're always welcome to stick me on ignore.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Wrecker06 said:


> Didn't say it was a new problem. I said they clearly have a fix in place as it has been working for the last few weeks. It was off for one night, seems to have been fixed again. The football analogy looks pretty strong still. You frequently over-react in your posts and seem to take a fatalist approach in most of your postings. Apparently you must have a bionic eye that see things that nobody else notices, or you're just look for the flaws to complain about something. I'm guessing you watch it in slow motion and focus that bionic eye on their lips and listen to the audio.
> 
> You say you have never seen KGO perfectly insync, when a lot of us say it has been. Yes it has had it's problems, but it has also been perfectly insync recently. Dish has a dedicated team in SF working with the broadcasters fix all of the issues.
> 
> ...


 Yes ,they worked with me one on one when I had Little Rock locals over the phone and tweaked the sound and picture quality issues. They did the same when I had problems with the Houston locals both sd and hd . They really care about the picture quality and make you feel like you are the only one they take care of. No other company I have had has done this- Not Time Warner Cable or Directv. I send e-mails to the [email protected] echostar.com when ever I see issues and they always respond and I don't mean the canned response that most people get. They are great!


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## joebird (Sep 15, 2003)

A couple of observations: 1) I use an OTA antenna, so I usually don't watch the Dish HD locals. However last night I did, and I thought they were MUCH improved from the last time that I checked them out, which was probably a month ago (at least for CBS), and 2) speaking of FOX, the other night when Fox was broadcasting Star Wars III at the same time that ABC was broadcasting Pirates of the Caribbean -- I thought the ABC picture looked much better than that on Fox/KTVU (and I'm referring to the OTA version). Start Wars just looked a bit grainy for some reason.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Lyle_JP said:


> If OTA was even remotely an option for me I would have no reason to complain. But not everyone in the Bay Area can get signals from Sutro tower.
> 
> I'm sorry you dislike like my posts so much. You're always welcome to stick me on ignore.


Ok wait, you can't get OTA, yet you comment on how much better it is? How can you compare signals if you don't even get the signal that you say is so much better?


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

Wrecker,

Read the posts again. I can get signal only from Mt Allison above Fremont, which _used_ to carry NBC.


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## Diverreb (Sep 7, 2006)

I'm on the other coast ...Dover, DE. Just got up & running with Dish H-D. Audio issues are the same here. In & out of sync by varying degrees at different times & on different stations. Called Dish a few times & last night the girl said it was a "Known Issue" and they were working on a software fix. No expected date of completion. Major bummer.... I'll give it a little while, but I don't think we should be paying extra for poor quality broadcasts.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

Diverreb said:


> I'll give it a little while, but I don't think we should be paying extra for poor quality broadcasts.


Well, technically you're not paying extra. You get your locals in HD so long as you buy the SD locals package and have an MPEG4 capable receiver. HD locals aren't tied to a "metal pack".


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Lyle_JP said:


> Well, technically you're not paying extra. You get your locals in HD so long as you buy the SD locals package and have an MPEG4 capable receiver. HD locals aren't tied to a "metal pack".


Actually, yes we are paying extra... what do you think the "HD enabling fee" is??

In order to get the HD locals you need a Vip receiver... and either need to pay an extra $20/mo to get an HD package and they are included, or, keep a AT package and pay $6/mo extra for the privilidge of seeing the locals in HD, it is just not OPTIONAL w/ these receivers and is not advertised as an "HD locals package", but that doesn't mean we aren't paying for it.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

grooves12 said:


> n order to get the HD locals you need a Vip receiver... and either need to pay an extra $20/mo to get an HD package and they are included, or, keep a AT package and pay $6/mo extra for the privilidge of seeing the locals in HD, it is just not OPTIONAL w/ these receivers and is not advertised as an "HD locals package", but that doesn't mean we aren't paying for it.


Guess again.

Whether or not you pay the enabling fee, you only get LIL if you subscribe to LIL. HD LIL does not cost extra. The HD enabling fee is an additional subsidy for having a ViP class receiver that would otherwise be included in a metal package.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

Lyle_JP said:


> Wrecker,
> 
> Read the posts again. I can get signal only from Mt Allison above Fremont, which _used_ to carry NBC.


Exactly my point. You USED to get it. You DONT get it now.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

Wrecker,

What are you, my freakin' internet stalker now? Do I really need to post every goddamned thing twice just to satisfy you? I have already stated that my PQ comparisons of KNTV were based on OTA I used to be able to receive and Comcast's feed which I can see any time I like. I'd also like to point out that I have already stated that Dish has fixed KNTV's PQ problems and that I am very happy about it. I have less faith in their ability to permanently fix the KGO problem before this season begins since the sync (even as recently as this week) is frequently off by more than a second, and never seems to be truly fixed for more than one night in a row (yes, I have _finally _seen it in sync, though it was only once).

If you would like to debate any of the points we are _currently _discussing, this would be the place to do it. If all you want to do is regurgitate old (and outdated) posts of mine simply for the joy of pissing on me, why don't you take it to PM, or better yet, just go away.


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## jasonander (Sep 9, 2006)

I'm going to be moving to an area where Comcast only has 550 MHz, and so I'm considering switching to Dish to gain access to more high definition channels, on-demand, and as a statement to Comcast that not upgrading is unacceptable (it seems like the only way to make them listen is with your pocketbook). However, reading this thread frightens me a bit, since I watch a lot of stuff on KGO, FOX, and KNTV in HD. How has the local high definition service through Dish been recently? Is it still not reliable? If Dish is still having problems with their Bay area HD locals, I'd consider staying with Comcast until Dish works out the kinks, or at least keep Comcast basic cable service around as a backup.

Thanks for any advice.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

The HD locals are very good now. You'll be able to receive, and record, HD OTA with the 622 also. Once you've used the 622 you'll never go back to the Comcast DVR.


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## Ozone (Sep 10, 2006)

First time poster, been lurking today trying to find information to help me diagnose the HD display on my Samsung 40 inch LCD TV (LTN406W). I have the vip-211, the reception had been great, I've seen a few college games on ESPN on one on NBC, picture has been fine. Today (Sunday) I go to watch NFL games on Fox and CBS and the picture is absolutely deplorable. My component connections are fine, I rebooted the receiver, and the picture still comes through horribly. Interestingly enough, some other stations come in crystal clear; Discovery, Rave, etc... all look terrific. I called DISH, they checked my signal and some other routine testing over the phone and everything seems ok. New receiver coming to me a few days. Any other suggestions for diagonsis?


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

harsh said:


> Guess again.
> 
> Whether or not you pay the enabling fee, you only get LIL if you subscribe to LIL. HD LIL does not cost extra. The HD enabling fee is an additional subsidy for having a ViP class receiver that would otherwise be included in a metal package.


Yeah, because it would make sense to order a Vip receiver, when you can receive exactly ZERO extra programming by doing so... right??


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## davidxlai (Jan 21, 2006)

I am quite happy with the local HD I am getting from Dish for the Bay Area now. Watched a couple of football games over the weekend. It has been really good.



jasonander said:


> I'm going to be moving to an area where Comcast only has 550 MHz, and so I'm considering switching to Dish to gain access to more high definition channels, on-demand, and as a statement to Comcast that not upgrading is unacceptable (it seems like the only way to make them listen is with your pocketbook). However, reading this thread frightens me a bit, since I watch a lot of stuff on KGO, FOX, and KNTV in HD. How has the local high definition service through Dish been recently? Is it still not reliable? If Dish is still having problems with their Bay area HD locals, I'd consider staying with Comcast until Dish works out the kinks, or at least keep Comcast basic cable service around as a backup.
> 
> Thanks for any advice.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

The collage football games on Sat were marginal at best on KNTV11 the pulseing field was weird...


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## sycho316 (Aug 4, 2006)

I live in Santa Clara myself and KGO (ABC) is pretty unwatchable. It would go in and out of focus.

After a camera change, the picture would slowly become more focused, quite annoying. The other local channels don't exhibit this.


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## styxfix (Aug 7, 2002)

sycho316 said:


> I live in Santa Clara myself and KGO (ABC) is pretty unwatchable. It would go in and out of focus.
> 
> After a camera change, the picture would slowly become more focused, quite annoying. The other local channels don't exhibit this.


That is not a DISH problem. You see the same thing from the OTA antenna. I think this is a problem with ABC or KGO. I sometimes see it also on OTA on CBS.


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## Mikef5 (Apr 13, 2006)

styxfix said:


> That is not a DISH problem. You see the same thing from the OTA antenna. I think this is a problem with ABC or KGO. I sometimes see it also on OTA on CBS.


Saw the same thing on Comcast, this is a known problem with KGO. This even happens when ESPN is supplying the feed so it's a KGO transmission problem and not a Dish problem.

Laters,
Mikef5


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## sycho316 (Aug 4, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification, good to hear that it's not a Dish problem.

Unfortunately this is still quite irritating, especially for sporting events.


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## joebird (Sep 15, 2003)

Watching Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy tonight. Checked them out on the HD local feed from Dish -- ugh -- it's almost as if the bitrate was cut in half. I usually view using an OTA antenna, but periodically check out the HD locals. They had actually started to look decent of late, but something strange is going on this evening.

I flip back to my OTA, and it looks so much better.


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## Wrecker06 (May 23, 2006)

WOW! has anyone else noticed the grainy look of ABC HD (KGO)? Or the weird 1 inch wide white bars on FX that appear on each side of the broadcast during Nip Tuck??


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## LG811User (Jan 12, 2005)

Yes to both
And it was going so well...


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## joebird (Sep 15, 2003)

It looks awful. I also recorded something off of National Geographic HD the other night, and it looked like cr*p as well. What's up with the MPEG-4 of late?


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

Not all the MPEG-4 looks bad. I watched Chronicles of Narnia on StarzHD and it was breathtaking. CBS and Fox in the Bay Area still look top notch. But NBC has slid downhill again. The picture has been so softened that it completely defeats the purpose of High Definition. I've given up on ABC HD completely. All my ABC timers are on the standard def feed.


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## mdgolf (Apr 14, 2006)

Have to agree with ABC. Whether it's E* or simply a KGO issue I don't know but "Help Me Help You" last night was like watching a TV using rabbit ears with poor reception. Awful! NBC is very shadowy and soft in the backgrounds.

Anyone have issues watching "Today" on NBC getting "pop" transitioning from the network feed to the local cut-ins? (from HD to SD) I get this on other Lil's as well that go back and forth.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

> Anyone have issues watching "Today" on NBC getting "pop" transitioning from the network feed to the local cut-ins? (from HD to SD) I get this on other Lil's as well that go back and forth.


I have been getting that on every HD local, _but only since the most recent software update!_ I am *sure *that the new software is the culprit.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Lyle_JP said:


> I have been getting that on every HD local, _but only since the most recent software update!_ I am *sure *that the new software is the culprit.


Actually more likely the local. Hear similar pops when not viewing through other ATSC tuners for some locals.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

ABC-KGO was better last night. Shows they are working on them.


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## socceteer (Apr 22, 2005)

I am not sure where most of you in the bay area stand with ABC's quality, but I am still having problems every day. where the video freezes for about 3 seconds but the sound is fine. It happened yesterday again


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

The last time I saw Lost it was surprisingly good. I haven't noticed any lip-synch problems in a week. I have my fingers crossed for tonight. The biggest problems I still see are on KNTV, but nearly all of those have been part of the OTA signal, and are clearly KNTV's fault. But the two hours a week that I bother to watch KGO haven't been bad recently.

Of course, I occasionally get massive pixellating messes on all the MPEG4 channels, but I've been told that is a ViP 622 problem caused by a recent upgrade, and will be fixed by a future one.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

The MPEG4 has gotten very good, however it is still not as good as the OTA. Keep working on it Dish, as well as all your MPEG4 channels. HGHD is not as good as it was.


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## elbodude (Jul 13, 2006)

socceteer said:


> I am not sure where most of you in the bay area stand with ABC's quality, but I am still having problems every day. where the video freezes for about 3 seconds but the sound is fine. It happened yesterday again


I had some issues on ABC last night during Lost. Picture freezing and pixelating.


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## davethis (Nov 20, 2006)

I got E* installed last week and have noticed a few problems already. Watching KGO (Desperate Housewifes) on Sunday, large sections of the screen went green.

Then last night on FOX for the Billboard Awards, sometimes it looked good, but sometimes it looked fuzzy. It is like some cameras looked better than others. Same with the News that came on right after.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

davethis said:


> I got E* installed last week and have noticed a few problems already. Watching KGO (Desperate Housewifes) on Sunday, large sections of the screen went green.
> 
> Then last night on FOX for the Billboard Awards, sometimes it looked good, but sometimes it looked fuzzy. It is like some cameras looked better than others. Same with the News that came on right after.


Record OTA when possible, however even OTA glitches from the station. Those green glitches might be from KGO..


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## Dmitry (Jun 12, 2006)

HDlover said:


> Record OTA when possible, however even OTA glitches from the station. Those green glitches might be from KGO..


I think so, they're on almost every week and the rest of the stations are practically green blotch free.


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