# 4th Gen iPad?



## trdrjeff (Dec 3, 2007)

Didn't see than coming


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Me neither. I was expecting maybe a refresh of the 3rd generation, like they did with the 2.


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## yosoyellobo (Nov 1, 2006)

I brought my first IPAD about a month ago. Let me know when they get to the 10th Gen.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> Me neither. I was expecting maybe a refresh of the 3rd generation, like they did with the 2.


Well, it really is a refresh when you think about it. The new one has the Lightning adapter so it comes into line with the new iPhone and they increased the speed of the wifi adapter. Nothing major when you think about it.

- Merg


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

The Merg said:


> Well, it really is a refresh when you think about it. The new one has the Lightning adapter so it comes into line with the new iPhone and they increased the speed of the wifi adapter. Nothing major when you think about it.
> 
> - Merg


The new A6X processor is pretty major, to me.. that dwarfts the adapter and wifi/cellular updates.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

doubled the CPU. A6.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Sixto said:


> doubled the CPU. A6.


Ahhh... Missed that...

- Merg


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Yea, I like the mini better. Just wish it had "retina" display. Soon as I saw that one I put my 32GB black iPad 3 VZW up for sale (shameless plug for the for-sale forum post).


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

You may do better on Gazelle or Amazon. . . I just sold our iPhone4s for $165 each.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't see the point in the mini at that price point.

IF you mostly (or solely) want to read books... a Kindle is nearly half the price of the cheapest iPad mini still.

IF you want to do more than read books (and yes, I know the Kindle has apps too just not as many)... then I wholeheartedly recommend the full-size iPad instead.

I just don't see the market for a Kindle-sized device at nearly twice the price.

For the money, you might as well get a full size iPad instead... otherwise get a Kindle.

Or am I missing something?


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

"dennisj00" said:


> You may do better on Gazelle or Amazon. . . I just sold our iPhone4s for $165 each.


My offer was $185 for a 32 gb wifi ipad2. Much easier to do that to get a new phone at $200 than still pay another $300+ for an iPad. I'll wait until they stop releasing iOS versions.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't see the point in the mini at that price point.
> << Snipped bits out >>
> 
> Or am I missing something?


Maybe, maybe not. I'd put pretty good money on Apple's marketing expertise, though.


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## Karen (Oct 4, 2007)

I was on the iPad mini bandwagon for sure. The size was what I hoped the original iPad would be. However, the lack of an anti-glare screen like the one on the iPhone 5 could be a deal breaker for me. I've been considering getting the Kindle Paperwhite instead. I love my iPad 2, but it's just too big for me to hold comfortably and read for any length of time...


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

dennisj00 said:


> You may do better on Gazelle or Amazon. . . I just sold our iPhone4s for $165 each.


$165! Yikes. I'd have bought one for that price. Gazelle is crazy low but they do give cash where Amazon is MUCH higher but you only get Amazon credit which isn't horrible but I'd prefer cash. Amazon offer is $580 for an iPad 3 32 gig Verizon which really is quite good vs under $300 (edited from $350) from Gazelle and the chances they find something wrong with it and reduce the payment is quite high as that seems to be their "modus operandi". The $350 was for "virtually new" condition.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

I thought I heard a statement that the mini's screen was 75% less glaring (glareful??) than the iPad2, due to it being laminated to the display. But I wasn't paying full attention to the presentation, which certainly dragged in parts.


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## trdrjeff (Dec 3, 2007)

So Ipad 3rd Gen is discontinued while the iPad 2 is still going to be available? Really odd


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

trdrjeff said:


> So Ipad 3rd Gen is discontinued while the iPad 2 is still going to be available? Really odd


If you're gathering that from my post, it ain't so! A few references were made to the '2, comparing screens and resolution, but I didn't hear them say the '2 was going to be offered. OTOH, I didn't hear them say it wasn't. ....:eek2:


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

"Laxguy" said:


> If you're gathering that from my post, it ain't so! A few references were made to the '2, comparing screens and resolution, but I didn't hear them say the '2 was going to be offered. OTOH, I didn't hear them say it wasn't. ....:eek2:


The Apple website only shows the iPad2 , iPad Mini, & the iPad with Retina Display (iPad 4) available.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Justin23 said:


> The Apple website only shows the iPad2 , iPad Mini, & the iPad with Retina Display (iPad 4) available.


Confusing, as the "iPad", (3-ish) the one I got months ago, is also a retina display....


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## Karen (Oct 4, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> I thought I heard a statement that the mini's screen was 75% less glaring (glareful??) than the iPad2, due to it being laminated to the display. But I wasn't paying full attention to the presentation, which certainly dragged in parts.


I wasn't able to give it my full attention either. Someone came to the door at the worst possible moment. If that's the case, I'm on it. I'll have to watch the presentation again on my Apple TV! Thanks a bunch! You've made me feel hopeful. <g>


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

One interesting thing I gleaned..

Adding 4G/LTE to an iPad is $139.
Adding 4G/LTE to a new Kindle Fire HD is $200.

That might tell you how much subsidy is going on there.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Laxguy said:


> Confusing, as the "iPad", (3-ish) the one I got months ago, is also a retina display....


I think (but very difficult to tell), the iPad you bought a few months ago is no longer available. The iPad Retina is the top level, the iPad 2 is the entry level and available in very limited configurations (i.e. 16 gig only) and then you have the iPad mini.


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## trdrjeff (Dec 3, 2007)

djlong said:


> One interesting thing I gleaned..
> 
> Adding 4G/LTE to an iPad is $139.
> Adding 4G/LTE to a new Kindle Fire HD is $200.
> ...


Yep, probably has to do with the $50/yr plan you get with Amazon. It's only 250mb a month, but the wireless provider isn't making much margin on that.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't see the point in the mini at that price point.
> 
> IF you mostly (or solely) want to read books... a Kindle is nearly half the price of the cheapest iPad mini still.
> 
> ...


Not from my POV. I can't even figure out why anyone would buy books when you can get them from a library at no cost. Many years ago I began to wonder how book stores stayed in business.

Obviously iLemmings (all due respect to the members who use Apple equipment, I'm not aiming at anyone on the forum) will buy anything with an Apple on the back.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Karen said:


> I was on the iPad mini bandwagon for sure. The size was what I hoped the original iPad would be. However, the lack of an anti-glare screen like the one on the iPhone 5 could be a deal breaker for me. I've been considering getting the Kindle Paperwhite instead. I love my iPad 2, but it's just too big for me to hold comfortably and read for any length of time...


And here I'm considering buying that 20" Sony tablet... :lol:

Rich


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Rich said:


> Not from my POV. I can't even figure out why anyone would buy books when you can get them from a library at no cost. Many years ago I began to wonder how book stores stayed in business.
> Rich


Not everyone has a great library system, a book may not be available, or too many requests and not enough copies. Sure, there's Interlibrary loan, but that doesn't solve everything. Plus there's the fact that depending on how much time you have, you might end up taking more than the two weeks to read a book. Can't renew if someone requested it.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Rich said:


> Not from my POV. I can't even figure out why anyone would buy books when you can get them from a library at no cost. Many years ago I began to wonder how book stores stayed in business.


Well, when you go on vacation and only need to carry along an ebook reader for the 6 books you plan on reading as opposed to lugging around 6 books, that would be why...

- Merg


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

I was interested in the iPad Mini but expected a price point under $300. I'll take a closer look at the Google Nexus.

Currently I read e-books from the library on an iPod Touch. Works very well on a crowded economy airline seat. I'd prefer a 7+ inch screen, though.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Rich said:


> Not from my POV. I can't even figure out why anyone would buy books when you can get them from a library at no cost. Many years ago I began to wonder how book stores stayed in business.
> 
> Obviously iLemmings (all due respect to the members who use Apple equipment, I'm not aiming at anyone on the forum) will buy anything with an Apple on the back.
> 
> Rich


You're talking apples vs oranges, though.

I could make the same argument over almost anything that isn't a requirement for life (food, air, water).

For that matter... why do people buy water when it is free all around you?

Why do you need a car? You can walk or use public transportation.

Why do you need a computer? You can mail letters and packages, talk to people in person, play board/card games, and write with a pen and paper!

And so forth...


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Or buy bottled water that's priced higher than gasoline and may not be as good as your own tap water!

Or buy a cup of coffee that's priced higher than the gallon of gas that it took to go get the cup of coffee that's mostly milk and sugar!

The list is probably endless in today's economy -- recession indeed!!


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## naijai (Aug 19, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> I was interested in the iPad Mini but expected a price point under $300. I'll take a closer look at the Google Nexus.
> 
> Currently I read e-books from the library on an iPod Touch. Works very well on a crowded economy airline seat. I'd prefer a 7+ inch screen, though.


A price point under $300 would have taken a bigger bite out of Amazon and others share of the 7" market but the $329 will still take a bite out of it because it's easier for most to get their kids, add them to existing accounts or it's just another iDevice that people can use.

(I do have a iPad 3 which wil be replaced by the surface pro)


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

The fact that the refresh of the 10" came completely as a surprise and without weeks of speculation and rumor would lead me to believe they are more than just a bit concerned that the competition is getting serious in the tablet space. 

The price on the mini is just plain stupid though. This has to be pushing the limits of what even the most die-hard apple fans will be willing to stomach. Very happy that I dumped my Gen 1's last month as they would be nearly worthless now with Gen 4's coming so quickly to market.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

What bench mark of sales of the mini would you accept as showing that the pricing is not, like, totally stupid? 1 Million? 2? 5? 
What?


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

I said the price is stupid, which I believe it is. I will reserve comment wrt the intelligence level of the 1,2 or 5 million that will still purchase it.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

Rich said:


> Not from my POV. I can't even figure out why anyone would buy books when you can get them from a library at no cost. Many years ago I began to wonder how book stores stayed in business.


Why would people buy DVDs when they could just watch the movie on HBO (when available)?

You can ask the same question of many things. Some people just plaing like to own something.

One reason I have a Kindle Fire (having previously had a Kindle 2 and Kindle DX) is that I can get virtually any book I want, (almost) any time I want. Lately there's been the complication of the publishing companies trying to inflate prices, but that's another issue. I won't pay $15 for an e-book just as I won't pay $25 for a hardcover.

A friend of mine recommended a book to me last week. I looked it up and had it on my Kindle in less than 3 minutes. It's now synched to my phone as well and I can read whenever I have a few minutes. In addition, I don't have to lug several books around when travelling.

I always have my library with me - so when my trip to the mechanic for a car inspection suddenly turns into a couple of hours to replace brakes and some other parts, I have reading material. I even have newspapers and magazines delivered to my shirt pocket.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

I'm just shocked that Apple would miss the mark this badly. It's got worse hardware and screen than the Nexus 7 at a much higher price point, and if the rumor holds true that we're looking at a shift from 8/16GB on the Nexus 7 to 16/32 then at the $249 price point you're talking about a 32GB Nexus 7. That's insane. 

And it's precisely why Apple was so slow to enter the market, I suppose: they can't compete at anything below boutique pricing.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> I was interested in the iPad Mini but expected a price point under $300. I'll take a closer look at the Google Nexus.
> 
> Currently I read e-books from the library on an iPod Touch. Works very well on a crowded economy airline seat. I'd prefer a 7+ inch screen, though.


It is $70 more expensive than a 16GB Nexus, but with the 4:3 aspect ratio, 7.9 vs 7 provides a different experience a lot of folks will prefer, IMHO. If the price was equal, it would be a no-brainer for me as to which one I'd get.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

jdskycaster said:


> I said the price is stupid, which I believe it is. I will reserve comment wrt the intelligence level of the 1,2 or 5 million that will still purchase it.


Really? You really understand pricing and marketing better than a Fortune 100 company with the track record of Apple? If you can leave aside your remarks about stupid buyers, fanbois, etc., is there no number in sales that'd show that the pricing is all right? Are you squirming here just a bit? Come up with a number.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

RasputinAXP said:


> I'm just shocked that Apple would miss the mark this badly. It's got worse hardware and screen than the Nexus 7 at a much higher price point, and if the rumor holds true that we're looking at a shift from 8/16GB on the Nexus 7 to 16/32 then at the $249 price point you're talking about a 32GB Nexus 7. That's insane.
> 
> And it's precisely why Apple was so slow to enter the market, I suppose: they can't compete at anything below boutique pricing.


You give all the same geek arguments that were made when the 1st iPad hit the streets, and I suspect the market will respond now just like they did then. In the marketplace geeks aren't very relevant.

Note that none of the non-Apple tablet makers will give actual sales numbers, most likely because any number that is true would look pathetic in comparison to Apple's in tablets.

I think that in the long term, Apple and Amazon will be the biggest winners by far since they both have a thriving ecosystem to back up their hardware. And that is precisely what is missing with the rest of the tablets.

As to what pricing Apple should have come in at? Well Apple has been hitting the mark as to what the market is willing to pay for what Apple is providing. I expect the Mini will find plenty of buyers and even sell more of them than any other mfg.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> Not everyone has a great library system, a book may not be available, or too many requests and not enough copies. Sure, there's Interlibrary loan, but that doesn't solve everything. Plus there's the fact that depending on how much time you have, you might end up taking more than the two weeks to read a book. Can't renew if someone requested it.


Costs us $.10 a day to hold an overdue book. Rarely have to that, but it's still wayyyyy cheaper than buying the book.

I do realize everyone doesn't have the wonderful library network we do in NJ, but I'd think most states do have some sort of library network.

I've never tried to calculate the number of books I read in a year, but I'd be paying a hefty sum if I had to buy each one.

I dunno, it's never made any sense to me to purchase a book that can be had at no charge. No matter how you choose to read a book, be it a real paper book or on a computer, tablet, whatever, it still makes no sense to me to pay for a book that you can read free of charge.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

The Merg said:


> Well, when you go on vacation and only need to carry along an ebook reader for the 6 books you plan on reading as opposed to lugging around 6 books, that would be why...
> 
> - Merg


Not sure that's a valid point. I have never had a problem taking books with me, whether on a vacation or a business trip.

Rich


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

laxguy,
No. Why would I squirm? We had three 1st gen ipads right up until they became obsolete a month ago. They will sell millions of these but at what cost to their fan base in the long term? All speculation has been on apple finally hitting the $199 or even going as high as the $249 mark on this product and still maintaining margins through their volumes. The current price point looks more like a strategic cash grab from their loyal fan base rather than what you are characterizing as a highly savvy marketing move. 

Apple is not blazing any trails with this device, in fact they are now following in this category of product form factor. So other than being slightly too big to be highly portable and too small to provide the large tablet experience what are you getting for what you seem to be calling marketing genious and at a stellar premium price? 

A 2.2" smaller screen experience with smaller text so it will have a retina display right? Sorry, no. With any computing device processing power is key to the overall user experience. So if I pay more for an ipad mini I must be getting a faster processor right? Sorry, it does not have a class leading processor either. So in order to make up for these shortcomings apple must be finally offering something to make this one stand out from the crowd like support for expandable memory right? No. Since this is going to be used as a highly portable device I want a cellular enabled version. I can just swap the SIM card from my 2nd or 3rd gen ipad and use that right? Sorry, no you cannot, the SIM cards are not compatible.

Completely get that many have apps that they just want to run on a smaller more portable device but in this specific case this appears to be a marketing experiment to see just how far the consumer can be pushed beyond the boundaries of logic, reasoning and common sense when making a purchase.

My advice, buy the new 4th generation ipad instead. You will at least be giving the impression that you are a savvy tech consumer.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dennisj00 said:


> Or buy bottled water that's priced higher than gasoline and may not be as good as your own tap water!


I'm well aware that I can survive on tap water. But my liquid intake is only water (my choice, not a medical condition) and if you could taste our tap water, you'd understand why we don't drink it. The tap water meets all requirements for safe water, but it tastes awful.



> Or buy a cup of coffee that's priced higher than the gallon of gas that it took to go get the cup of coffee that's mostly milk and sugar!


That's something I don't get, but I don't drink coffee and if some people want to pay high prices for a Starbuck's cup of coffee, I guess they can afford it. Just as I can afford to buy every book I read. Just because I can afford to do something doesn't mean I'm gonna do it if I can get the same thing free of charge. But, maybe NJ's library system has me spoiled.



> The list is probably endless in today's economy -- recession indeed!!


Yeah, really makes you wonder doesn't it? I see people in the local convenience store buying cigarettes at prices I can't believe and lottery tickets that they probably can't afford. I'm also seeing a lot of new cars.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> What bench mark of sales of the mini would you accept as showing that the pricing is not, like, totally stupid? 1 Million? 2? 5?
> What?


We all know the iLemmings will be lined up at the stores today. I'm not sure if how many they sell is an indicator of how good they are or if they are priced too high. You know they're gonna sell.

Rich


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

jdskycaster said:


> laxguy,
> No. Why would I squirm? We had three 1st gen ipads right up until they became obsolete a month ago. They will sell millions of these but at what cost to their fan base in the long term? All speculation has been on apple finally hitting the $199 or even going as high as the $249 mark on this product and still maintaining margins through their volumes. The current price point looks more like a strategic cash grab from their loyal fan base rather than what you are characterizing as a highly savvy marketing move.
> 
> << Snipped bits out >>
> ...


I have the third generation iPad, and am satisfied with it, thanks. I don't care about impressing anyone with being tech savvy or not.

You are squirming/avoiding/evading my question/challenge because you're wrong. Not wrong about what you want for a price point, nor what you want for specs, but you're not willing to concede that there will be major sales at the pricing Apple has put on this particular device.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

djlong said:


> Why would people buy DVDs when they could just watch the movie on HBO (when available)?


I dunno. I don't buy them. Instant gratification?



> You can ask the same question of many things. Some people just plaing like to own something.


Yeah, there's that too.



> One reason I have a Kindle Fire (having previously had a Kindle 2 and Kindle DX) is that I can get virtually any book I want, (almost) any time I want.


Well, there's a case of instant gratification.



> Lately there's been the complication of the publishing companies trying to inflate prices, but that's another issue. I won't pay $15 for an e-book just as I won't pay $25 for a hardcover.


The hardcover book I'm reading now costs $27.99. I'm almost done with it and I started it yesterday. I'm gonna open a thread about it later today, it's a really good read. Cost: $0.00. How can you beat that?

So, the publishers are trying to jack up the prices on e-books, huh? Not surprised, but I'd like to see the justification to do that.



> A friend of mine recommended a book to me last week. I looked it up and had it on my Kindle in less than 3 minutes. It's now synched to my phone as well and I can read whenever I have a few minutes. In addition, I don't have to lug several books around when travelling.
> 
> I always have my library with me - so when my trip to the mechanic for a car inspection suddenly turns into a couple of hours to replace brakes and some other parts, I have reading material. I even have newspapers and magazines delivered to my shirt pocket.


I always have a book with me (in the car) when I go places where I might have time to kill. The book costs me nothing, I need no device to read it. I'm not arguing against e-book readers, just the cost of books in general. I understand quite well how the e-books work and prefer real books. Just an opinion, didn't mean to start an argument.

Rich


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Rich said:


> We all know the iLemmings will be lined up at the stores today. I'm not sure if how many they sell is an indicator of how good they are or if they are priced too high. You know they're gonna sell.


Of course. And Apple certainly has fanbois and goils who will do anything, pay anything to have the latest and greatest toy. Some of them know nothing about the device and will use 10% of its capacity. There are 128,605 such delusional folk, give or take 100,000.

But to pricing!? It's too high for me to buy one NOW, but I don't crave an 8" device. Yes, I'd love to have one, but for $50 only, today, would be my price point. Next year, my price point might be $ 400 for one.

How many they sell indicates a whole lot! Some will never concede that massive sales means anything; others will debate, or equivocate, or smear those who buy them, but the numbers don't lie.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Laxguy said:


> You are squirming/avoiding/evading my question/challenge because you're wrong. Not wrong about what you want for a price point, nor what you want for specs, but you're not willing to concede that there will be major sales at the pricing Apple has put on this particular device.


You must not have read the part where I said apple will still sell millions of these providing concrete evidence that the foundation of my argument is in fact right on.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Laxguy said:


> But to pricing!? It's too high for me to buy one NOW, but I don't crave an 8" device.


An 8" device? Nice try.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> Of course. And Apple certainly has fanbois and goils who will do anything, pay anything to have the latest and greatest toy. Some of them know nothing about the device and will use 10% of its capacity. There are 128,605 such delusional folk, give or take 100,000.
> 
> But to pricing!? It's too high for me to buy one NOW, but I don't crave an 8" device. Yes, I'd love to have one, but for $50 only, today, would be my price point. Next year, my price point might be $ 400 for one.
> 
> How many they sell indicates a whole lot! Some will never concede that massive sales means anything; others will debate, or equivocate, or smear those who buy them, but the numbers don't lie.


Just goes to show how many folks have money to spend at a time when we're in a financial crisis.

Rich


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

jdskycaster said:


> You must not have read the part where I said apple will still sell millions of these providing concrete evidence that the foundation of my argument is in fact right on.


Apple selling millions of these rejects your statement that the pricing of them is "stupid". You have no idea of their costs to manufacture or distribute; hence no idea of the markup. Selling them at a price you think is "right" might be at an unsatisfactory ROI or even at a loss.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

To some extent the apples and oranges are being thrown around here 

This isn't about whether or not Apple will sell enough iPad minis to be a success.

It is about whether or not Apple accomplishes what is presumably their goal of releasing such a device.

The iPad mini has two primary competitors:

1. Amazon Kindle
2. Apple iPad

IF iPad mini is chosen over an iPad due to price being lower... then Apple loses... because they have just cannibalized their own existing customer base and given them a cheaper option to buy an Apple product.

IF iPad mini is chosen over a Kindle, however, then Apple is gaining new customers.

BUT... the iPad mini to Kindle comparison isn't as favorable to existing Kindle owners. Kindle owners must like reading books and must like the cheaper price... and the iPad mini isn't cheap enough to compete in that market. The iPad mini isn't that much cheaper than the full-size iPad really... or to look at it another way, you can almost buy two Kindles for the price of one iPad mini.

I have an iPad... I want a new iPad... but I have no interest in the iPad mini. IF I wanted just a book-reader with some other options, the Kindle is far cheaper... since I want the other stuff that the iPad offers, I'd rather have the only slightly more expensive full-size iPad.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Stewart Vernon said:


> IF iPad mini is chosen over an iPad due to price being lower... then Apple loses... because they have just cannibalized their own existing customer base and given them a cheaper option to buy an Apple product.


Respectfully disagree. I read somewhere an estimate that it costs them $200 to build and ship an iPad Mini they sell for $130 more. Maybe not iPad maxi margins, but pretty good margins none the less, IMHO.

And they still bring a new iTunes customer into the ecosystem that otherwise might have become a Kindle or Play Store customer. Just my .02.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Just as Amazon is probably selling the Kindle's on a very narrow margin for the book sales, Apple can reduce their margin on the hardware with book, magazine, iTunes, apps and cellular revenue.

It becomes the razor / razor blade model very quickly. Or eyes on the tablet.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Laxguy said:


> Apple selling millions of these rejects your statement that the pricing of them is "stupid". You have no idea of their costs to manufacture or distribute; hence no idea of the markup. Selling them at a price you think is "right" might be at an unsatisfactory ROI or even at a loss.


It's not just me and I am not making this stuff up. The technical spec's speak for themselves. The mini is not a superior product to the competition, therefore it may not be stupid but it sure seems idiotic to price it higher than the competitions products.

Stewart,
It is not just the kindle the mini is competing with. Here is a link to an article that outlines all of the existing competition in this space.

http://www.networkworld.com/slideshow/71220/7-solid-7-inch-tablets-that-rival-the-ipad-mini-and-cost-less.html


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## pfp (Apr 28, 2009)

jdskycaster said:


> It's not just me and I am not making this stuff up. The technical spec's speak for themselves. The mini is not a superior product to the competition, therefore it may not be stupid but it sure seems idiotic to price it higher than the competitions products.
> 
> Stewart,
> It is not just the kindle the mini is competing with. Here is a link to an article that outlines all of the existing competition in this space.
> ...


Take two identical devices then slap in apple logo and $50 higher price on one and it will sell millions more than the other.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Stewart Vernon said:


> The iPad mini has two primary competitors:
> 
> 1. Amazon Kindle
> 2. Apple iPad
> ...


A new customer choosing a mini over the full size iPad isn't a 'lose' situation for Apple, unless the margins are quite different.



> I have an iPad... I want a new iPad... but I have no interest in the iPad mini. IF I wanted just a book-reader with some other options, the Kindle is far cheaper... since I want the other stuff that the iPad offers, I'd rather have the only slightly more expensive full-size iPad


Each person will have his own set of druthers and bench marks. Some will just compare processor speeds, pixel count, # of apps., whatever. Some will buy just because it is made by Apple; some won't due to that.

Oddly enough, perhaps, if I didn't have an iPad3 I _might_ buy the mini. At least give it serious thought. Then, I love my MacBookAir, and the iPad is too big for me to hold reading on my back in bed.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

"Steve" said:


> Respectfully disagree. I read somewhere an estimate that it costs them $200 to build and ship an iPad Mini they sell for $130 more. Maybe not iPad maxi margins, but pretty good margins none the less, IMHO.
> 
> And they still bring a new iTunes customer into the ecosystem that otherwise might have become a Kindle or Play Store customer. Just my .02.


Those figures generally are just in the actual costs of the parts, not the other costs involved.

But it's no secret that Apple has a higher markup than others. But there are benefits to the Apple experience as well.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

dpeters11 said:


> But there are benefits to the Apple experience as well.


After 3 years experiencing apple products and services I have yet to understand what those benefits truly are. Unless by benefits you mean paying a premium for a device that becomes obsolete at or near the speed of light. Or, perhaps you meant that it is of great benefit that the itunes experience is complete crap. Or maybe it is that this premium device becomes premium by having to jail-break it myself, setting it free from the apple choke hold of mediocrity and death.

No, I just thought of it. By paying the apple premium you get absolutely stellar customer service and support that is unmatched in the CE industry. Just like the time my wife took our gen 2 apple tv into the store because it would no longer boot up and I just did not have time to mess with it. She called me three hours later, said the apple geek took it in the back, messed with it for three hours (yes, three hours) handed it back and said - uh, it is 24 days out of your 1 year warranty. There is nothing we can do, it is broken. Now, I completely understand how this could happen as we used it at least 6 times in the year we had it, I am sure it just was not designed for that type of heavy usage model. Here are your options, number one, you can buy a brand new unit for full price. Option two, oh, sorry there is no option two.

But FYI you are going to be thrilled that we just replaced the apple tv 2 with an apple tv 3!! You want to see it? It is really cool and it now comes in white!!! And since we see you really did not have a great experience with your apple tv gen 2 we will sell you one today for - wait for it.......... FULL PRICE!!! Just incredible customer service, white glove, top notch. But then I do understand times are tight at apple, all the billions of dollars in profit are stranded somewhere outside of the US, kept there so that the company can avoid paying zero taxes on any profits made here in the USA.

I bet you are wondering what I told my wife to do. Yep, bring it on home as I am certainly not buying another apple tv even if it does come in white. She brought it home and I re-flashed it in itunes running on my Windows notebook (took me all of 20 min). Maybe the apple geniuses just could not figure this out on their own or maybe the macbook they used just did not have this capability. I should really give them the benefit of the doubt.

So I have to agree there are a multitude of benefits that up until now I have just not taken the time to appreciate. I do thank apple for not supporting the ipad gen 1 and that pushed me to get rid of all three of them when I would normally have said it was completely premature to do so. I also thank the the lord that both of my kids have their eyes and hearts set on another brand of phone when we upgrade this spring. Cannot come fast enough for me, we will be fresh out of apples by spring. Woot!!


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

I was having trouble with my iPod, it was out of warranty but they got it working. No charge, and I was thinking I'd probably end up getting the new one when it came out. Not going to now.

Getting software updates on iPhones etc certainly more reliable compared to Android.

I hate iTunes as well, but don't use it much.

Ok, they didn't release iOS 6 for the original iPad. But I can walk into a cellular store, get an Android phone with 2 year contract (though free), and it has Gingerbread or Froyo. That's more pathetic to me.

Apple released iOS 6 for the 3GS. There has to be a reason it wasn't released for the first gen iPad.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

dpeters11 said:


> Apple released iOS 6 for the 3GS. There has to be a reason it wasn't released for the first gen iPad.


3GS was still a currently active model when iOS 6 was released.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

True. But i don't think that is a requirement. Certainly isn't for Android. Now, I will say there was a time I was upset with Apple. I was very annoyed when I was charged to get access to apps like Mail and such, then charged for OS updates. Fortunately, they don't do that anymore.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Steve said:


> Respectfully disagree. I read somewhere an estimate that it costs them $200 to build and ship an iPad Mini they sell for $130 more. Maybe not iPad maxi margins, but pretty good margins none the less, IMHO.
> 
> And they still bring a new iTunes customer into the ecosystem that otherwise might have become a Kindle or Play Store customer. Just my .02.





jdskycaster said:


> It's not just me and I am not making this stuff up. The technical spec's speak for themselves. The mini is not a superior product to the competition, therefore it may not be stupid but it sure seems idiotic to price it higher than the competitions products.
> 
> Stewart,
> It is not just the kindle the mini is competing with. Here is a link to an article that outlines all of the existing competition in this space.
> ...


I'm less familiar with the other tablets, so I couldn't fairly bring them into my post conversation... though I know there are some others out there to compete with.

Generally what I'm saying is this...

Without even trying to compete directly with those products, the iPad was selling similar to warm pancakes 

So... if Apple doesn't introduce the iPad mini, people would still line up to buy the iPad.

Apple introduces an iPad mini that is slightly cheaper than an iPad and has slightly less capability than the full-size iPad... but still costs substantially more than its closest competitors.

The comparison between a Kindle and an iPad full-size is all the different/better stuff you can do with an iPad besides the books. The comparison between a Kindle and the iPad mini is less sexy.

I can talk someone into spending a little more for an iPad... even a lot more... but I don't feel like I can talk someone into an iPad mini.

I have an iPhone, iPad, and iMac... I also have an older PC and still run Windows in a virtual machine on my Mac... I think I can be pretty fair about the things Apple does right and the places where it is worth the money Apple charges.

All I'm really saying is... this late into the game... I'll be surprised if the iPad mini does much damage to the Kindle/other smaller tablet market that the iPad full-size wasn't going to do anyway.

And ever user that buys an iPad mini, is not going to buy an iPad full size.

As I said... I have an iPhone, iPad, and iMac... it makes zero sense for me to consider an iPad mini.

For the consumer who wants the iPad mini... Apple might lost an iPad sale (so that's maybe an equal profit margin trade perhaps) but they might also lose an iPhone sale as well... because that person might opt for a cheap smartphone to make up the difference they had to pay for the iPad mini over a Kindle or similar smaller tablet.

Only time will tell... I just don't think Apple needed small, medium, and large sizes to compete... I think small and large were option enough.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Stewart,
Totally agree with you on that point. The relatively small difference in price between the mini and the new 4th gen ipad is so close that portability alone does not make up for it. 

Anyone looking at both should think long and hard before dropping $329 plus the cost of accessories on a mini. You are also almost guaranteed that most of that investment will evaproate once the gen 2 comes out in 6 - 8 months and with a retina display.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

Rich said:


> The hardcover book I'm reading now costs $27.99. I'm almost done with it and I started it yesterday. I'm gonna open a thread about it later today, it's a really good read. Cost: $0.00. How can you beat that?


Simple. The stuff I like typically isn't available at a library - and when it is, it's often checked-out. Also, I didn't have to drive through town to get there. Another benefit is that my wife and daughter have Kindle software on their phones linked to my account so they can read the book as well. Oh yeah - I also have the newspaper delivered to my Kindle (it's never late, wet or missing). But, by the same token, I also voted in the town election to marshall the funds to build the new library. Not everyone is in my situation and, to me, libraries are something essential.

I certainly don't argue that there's a cost involved with convenience. But it's different strokes for different folks. It took some doing for me to 'switch' to e-books (for the most part) but that reasoning was because I was running out of bookshelves. The reason for THAT was that I simply liked owning the books. I like supporting the authors. They're performing a service that, to me, is worth it (at least when priced right - I remember the days of 'waiting for the paperback').


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

I'm just happy that I can buy an electronic copy, and can sync it to every device throughout the family, and have it forever. Great flexibility. It costs what it costs, but at least for me it's worth it, for others maybe not.

For the price of the iPad Mini, same, it is what it is, it's it's too high and doesn't sell well then they'll lower it if the targets don't work out.

For the iPad 4th generation, I may stick with my 3rd generation for while, unless I impulsively decide to sell it for more then $500 if I'd ever find anyone. Really would prefer to wait for a thinner and lighter 5th generation which will probably come with the newer less power consuming screen.

Certainly great to see them keep adding to the Apple ecosystem, the more the better, with UI consistently on every device. Also have a close family member who just moved the whole family to iPhone's, and they're now also looking at the iPad, and Apple TV for family photos on the big screen. Awesome time that we live in.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Just because the maker of your device comes out with a new model, design or OS doesn't make what you have *obsolete*. Unless you're way focused on what's new and cool, or the new device does something you have to have or your life becomes a big empty hole.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> Just because the maker of your device comes out with a new model, design or OS doesn't make what you have *obsolete*. Unless you're way focused on what's new and cool, or the new device does something you have to have or your life becomes a big empty hole.


Right. I'm keeping my iPad 2 until they stop releasing iOS versions for it. That is probably the point I'll get a new one.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

dpeters11 said:


> Right. I'm keeping my iPad 2 until they stop releasing iOS versions for it. That is probably the point I'll get a new one.


Not sure which model you have, but if you do get the urge to upgrade, a clean 32gb iPad 2 wifi is worth up to $345 on Amazon instant sale. They're also selling for over $400 on eBay.

Even used _original _iPad 16gb WiFi models are still selling for over $200!


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## klang (Oct 14, 2003)

I've got an iPad 2 I'm still happy with. I'm waiting to see if an iPad 5 is due in the spring. That will be a two year upgrade cycle which is what I do with my phone.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Laxguy said:


> Just because the maker of your device comes out with a new model, design or OS doesn't make what you have *obsolete*. Unless you're way focused on what's new and cool, or the new device does something you have to have or your life becomes a big empty hole.


It has nothing to do with what's cool. Once apple decides to stop supporting the device with OS upgrades it is considered end of life, done. Try buying a refurbished gen 1 ipad from the apple site, they no longer exist in the eyes of the company. Yes, it will still function just like early generation ipods and iphones do but application support quickly rolls off and batteries die and become more expensive to replace than what the device is worth.

The reason you are forced to sell is the larger community is just now beginning to realize that unsupported devices from apple are obsolete so there is a small window where you can sell it and recoup at least some of the premium you paid for it. Every new generation product is billed as the "best apple ithing ever." Case in point, if you just bought a third generation ipad you are not the happiest apple customer ever now that ipad 4 came out of nowhere.

The ipad mini will most likely refresh very quickly to add a retina display which it should already have had out of the gate at its premium to the marketplace. Buy one, see what it is worth after the new mini comes out next spring or summer. This trend apple has introduced to its loyal customers will eventually catch up with them. Three years of it and I am ready to tap out. Lesson learned. As someone else already stated we are living in great times, choices and options are quickly becoming abundant. This is good.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

djlong said:


> Simple. The stuff I like typically isn't available at a library - and when it is, it's often checked-out. Also, I didn't have to drive through town to get there. Another benefit is that my wife and daughter have Kindle software on their phones linked to my account so they can read the book as well. Oh yeah - I also have the newspaper delivered to my Kindle (it's never late, wet or missing). But, by the same token, I also voted in the town election to marshall the funds to build the new library. Not everyone is in my situation and, to me, libraries are something essential.
> 
> I certainly don't argue that there's a cost involved with convenience. But it's different strokes for different folks. It took some doing for me to 'switch' to e-books (for the most part) but that reasoning was because I was running out of bookshelves. The reason for THAT was that I simply liked owning the books. I like supporting the authors. They're performing a service that, to me, is worth it (at least when priced right - I remember the days of 'waiting for the paperback').


I can't even imagine how much my wife and I would spend on books if we had to buy them. But, you're right, different people will look at this differently. I've never had an urge to keep books, except for a very few reference books.

Don't get me wrong, if folks want to read e-books it makes little difference to me. What worries me is the direction libraries are taking. But that's a story for another thread.

Rich


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

dpeters11 said:


> Right. I'm keeping my iPad 2 until they stop releasing iOS versions for it. That is probably the point I'll get a new one.


Case in point!

In some instances with computers, receivers, phones and tablets, they don't become obsolete even when the next OS won't run on them, perhaps even when all updates stop. Mileage, usage varies.

Now, my 8500 _*is*_ obsolete!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I have an original iPad... the biggest problem right now with it is... they didn't support iOS6 on it, and the iOS 5.1.1 has been buggy for me... lots of crashes... so it has reached its end of life in terms of support, though not for usefulness.

IF I had a new iPad from earlier in the year, I wouldn't be tempted... but having skipped iPad 2, and the earlier release... this new iPad is more tempting to me for all the things I'll get since the original.

I had the iPhone 3G... and didn't upgrade that until iPhone 4. I have no plans for an iPhone 5... I'm still happy and 5 doesn't offer enough to suck me into more money and a new 2 year contract with the phone company.

Maybe iPhone 6 will tempt me. I'm fine skipping every other generation or so to get the most bang for my upgrade bucks.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Laxguy said:


> Case in point!
> 
> In some instances with computers, receivers, phones and tablets, they don't become obsolete even when the next OS won't run on them, perhaps even when all updates stop. Mileage, usage varies.
> 
> Now, my 8500 _*is*_ obsolete!


Except prior to the new world of apple it was considered standard practice to design a removable battery into any portable device. I am very happy to see that new offerings in the tablet arena will soon be offering this as an option. Sure it may not be as thin as a sheet of paper but contrary to current popular belief form should often times follow functionality.

Anyone with a two to three year old device is walking a fine line where the internal battery will cost more to replace than the device is worth. Another reason I dumped my Gen 1's a month ago.

As for running an older OS, Apple makes sure new features and functionality are inherent to any new release. If you cannot consume it on your device then it becomes that much less desirable and therefore can still inhabit the walled garden of apple it is just relegated to the area closest to the dung heap.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

I read of your bad experience with Apple, maybe many, and see you tilting at just about every feature they introduced. 

I am just not able to respond to every post on this, and we have very different ideas as to what obsolescence is, so best of luck with whatever devices you choose.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

"Laxguy" said:


> Case in point!
> 
> In some instances with computers, receivers, phones and tablets, they don't become obsolete even when the next OS won't run on them, perhaps even when all updates stop. Mileage, usage varies.
> 
> Now, my 8500 is obsolete!


I support iPhones and iPads at work, so it really is helpful to me to have the current OS. Plus there are a lot of security fixes even in iOS 6.

Fortunately we haven't run into many bugs running old versions that are a real issue. We will need to work with some users that are not able to update past 4.2.1 because of an Exchange 2010 migration bug. I do wish some that have iPhone 3G's would upgrade as they never back up their photos and such, then get mad if anything does happen.

For computers, I'm going to have a few users that are on PowerPC Macs, Win98 and ME when we make a change that will prevent them from using those home systems from connecting to one of our systems. So definitely mileage varies. For Microsoft, when they stop releasing security updates, time to update the OS. At least to 7 while its possible


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