# Superdish and Poor man Superdish



## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

Hey,

Hopefully you can help me. I have been doing a lot of reading but I still have 2 pretty basic questions that hopefully you can fill me in on

1) What is the Poor Man Superdish many people here are refering to?
2) In regards to the actual Dish Network Superdish, what is the Difference between Superdish3, Superdish4 and Superdish Full (as it says in my 2800 Dish Pointing Screen)? Is there a DNET Superdish forthcomming that will be able to recieve 105,110,119 and 121 (and if not, wouldnt that make scense especially if they aren't coming out with an equivalent to a Legacy/DP-300 Dish?)?

Thanx


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Well poor man's superdish is using a regular Ku satellite dish to pick up 105 or 121. With a switch 64 you can feed 119, 110, plus either 105 or 121 to 4 recievers (or 8 if you get fancy). It is not a dish pro solution, but since a lot of people had old dishes lying around with standard Ku-FSS LNBs (like primestar) dishes they were able to just hook it up and get it to work without having to have superdish installations (this saves the commitment and waits, you can just have your locals turned on instantely by Dish).

If you are not handy with dishes and do not want to be bothered by it, I would reccomend taking dish up in their free install with a programming commitment. If you want to play around with it, have some adventure and fun, and have a dish lying around or can arrange to get one, go for it. You can always just call for the SuperDish if you get in over your head. It took me about 15 minutes to mount the dish but took me a long time to get it locked in on 105. You can read all about my experience with photos at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=20648

Maybe someday Dish will release a Ku-FSS LNB that is DishPro. If they do that you could put up 2 Ku-FSS dishes and use DPP44 to get all 4 sats at once. You can kind of do it with SW64/SW21 as I did in the above post, but it has its limits.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

I wonder if a dishpro adapter can be used in reverse?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> I wonder if a dishpro adapter can be used in reverse?


I could be wrong, but I think a DP Adapter is a voltage-switched unstacker. No way to reverse it.

I'm thinking you want a device that will stack the transponders so the LNBF output looks like DishPro. That sounds doable, and a stacker already exists - but I don't know if it's stacking method is the same as DishPro's.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

SimpleSimon said:


> I could be wrong, but I think a DP Adapter is a voltage-switched unstacker. No way to reverse it.
> 
> I'm thinking you want a device that will stack the transponders so the LNBF output looks like DishPro. That sounds doable, and a stacker already exists - but I don't know if it's stacking method is the same as DishPro's.


It is close, but I do not think close enough... Too bad dish does not come out with a stacker like this that is compatible with DP, it seems like it could solve a lot of problems for them.

From Dish: http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/technology/installation/DishPro_brochure_3-03.PDF

• Bandstacking (950-2150 MHz): combines the signals onto a single cable. The odd transponders are in the 950 to 1450 MHz frequency range; the even transponders are in the 1650 to 2150 MHz frequency range. Bandstacking simplifies installations by using only one cable per orbital location to an external switch.

From Sonora: http://www.sonoradesign.com/pdf_081303/Spec_uS575.pdf
Gain (odd transponders 950-1450 <Hz) ........................ 2 dB
Gain (even transponders 1550 to 2050 <Hz) ................ 6 dB

The even transponders are off by 100mhz


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Mike: I missed that - thanks for the info, as bumming out tho it is.

Maybe someone should talk to Sonora Design.


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## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

How big would suggest that the KU Band Dish be with a KU FSS LNB? I was doing some reading and someone was saying they were unable to get a signal with their 18' Pizza Dish, that was using a KU FSS instead of a KU DSS.

I have a bunch of 18' dishes just sitting around, if I were to go get a KU FSS LNB, would it work or do I need something bigger?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

An 18" dish is going to be problematic. Might you get a signal? Yes, until it looks like it might rain 2 or 3 states away. 

If I remember right, the old Primestar dishes were FSS - at least they're big enough to be used for it.

P.S. To avoid confusion, single-quote means feet, double-quote means inches.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

FSS Sats are medium powered. I know that DBS is 50 Watts, but not sure what the FSS is. It's also a lower freq. The higher the freq, the smaller the signal. Starband and Directway both us FSS for there systems, and both use a 36x24 eliptical dish(sizes may vary depending on model). A P* dish would work if you had the right coordinates. Remeber that you have to ajust the barrel for the particular polarity as well as the azmuth and elevation. I'm getting ready to try that out here near DC. When I get the right specs, I will post.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> FSS Sats are medium powered. I know that DBS is 50 Watts, but not sure what the FSS is. It's also a lower freq. The higher the freq, the smaller the signal. Starband and Directway both us FSS for there systems, and both use a 36x24 eliptical dish(sizes may vary depending on model). A P* dish would work if you had the right coordinates. Remeber that you have to ajust the barrel for the particular polarity as well as the azmuth and elevation. I'm getting ready to try that out here near DC. When I get the right specs, I will post.


Some of the Dish satellites (E6-8) can put out 240+ watts per transponder. FSS like the new echostar 9 put out 120 watts per channel. It is the spacing between the satellites that dictates the larger dish size for Ku-FSS. Ku-FSS has satellites spaced 2 degrees apart, the larger dish focuses on a smaller section of the sky. Ku-DBS are spaced 9 degrees apart.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

SimpleSimon said:


> Mike: I missed that - thanks for the info, as bumming out tho it is.
> 
> Maybe someone should talk to Sonora Design.


Yeah I finally gave up trying to find a Ku-FSS DP solution, and bought a used superdish to get a Dish DP Ku-FSS LNB...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'm not sure that the term "Poor Man's SuperDish" really applies when qualified subscribers can get a real superdish for free with a committment ... homebrew seems to be a more expensive way to go. Perhaps it is "Poor Man's" because it makes you poor? Or because the price of a dish without a committment is too high.

Then again the content on 105 and 121 really isn't good unless your locals are there or you subscribe to internationals. 900 and 7000 are only so cool. It seems to be a more of a bragging point of "I can see all the birds!" than actual high value watching. But that can be fun too!

JL


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

A poor man's superdish is a cheaper solution than having to pay full retail price for the superdish if you do not take the superdish promotion that Dish Network offers.


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

I only receive Birmingham, Alabama locals on Dish right now at either 110 or 119 (not sure which)... once my locals are up and running in Montgomery, Alabama I'll switch to them. Can I simply take my current Dish 500 with the SW44 switch and point it at either 105 or 121 (whichever my locals will be on) and it work?


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Sonnie Parker said:


> I only receive Birmingham, Alabama locals on Dish right now at either 110 or 119 (not sure which)... once my locals are up and running in Montgomery, Alabama I'll switch to them. Can I simply take my current Dish 500 with the SW44 switch and point it at either 105 or 121 (whichever my locals will be on) and it work?


No, 105 and 121 require a larger dish and a different LNB on the dish to recieve them.


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## music_beans (Mar 21, 2003)

Sonnie Parker said:


> I only receive Birmingham, Alabama locals on Dish right now at either 110 or 119 (not sure which)... once my locals are up and running in Montgomery, Alabama I'll switch to them.


I think you should stick with the Birmingham, Alabama locals to save you the SuperDISH troubles.


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

I definitely want the Montgomery locals once they are available... which E* tells me will be July.

I can understand how if I needed both 105 and 121 to receive them that I would need a larger dish but the locals should be on one or the other. Why would I need such a large dish to receive just one satellite? Seems like the Dish 500 would be big enough if I just used a the different LNB. No?

I don't think E* is gonna give me a free install just for locals so if I end up having to have a new dish I suppose I'll have to go the poor mans dish route. What price are those?


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## gor88 (May 9, 2003)

Sonnie,

The reason for the bigger dish is that the FSS signals naturally have a lower signal strength. The SuperDish is bigger to compensate for this.

E* will give you the dish free as long as you commit to AT60 or higher WITH locals for one year. Remember, they want you to subscribe to locals. Besides, it's not your fault that your locals will be on a different satellite.

The only issue you might run into is a wait for the Superdish.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

I'll have to figure which is less expensive... buying the necessary equipment and installing it myself or paying for AT60 for a year... also taking into consideration how long I'll have to wait to get it installed if I let them do it. I've always installed my own satellite equipment so that's not a problem.

Thanks!


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I wonder if a 24" dish would be big enough to receive a signal once the new 105 FSS satellite is launched, even if it would be a weaker signal but strong enough to pick up the signal to watch tv when it is not raining. I am able to achieve an 80-90% signal strength with the SuperDish if I have the dish peaked just right so the new bird should be even stronger.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Jacob S said:


> I wonder if a 24" dish would be big enough to receive a signal once the new 105 FSS satellite is launched, even if it would be a weaker signal but strong enough to pick up the signal to watch tv when it is not raining. I am able to achieve an 80-90% signal strength with the SuperDish if I have the dish peaked just right so the new bird should be even stronger.


I believe 30" would be the smallest that would work. It is not the strength of the satellite, 121 is broadcasting high power (not as high as the newest DBS), and still needs the larger dish. You need the larger dish to focus in on only the 105 or 121 satellite and not get interference from 103/107 or 119/123 KU-FSS satellites. The larger the dish the smaller the area of the sky it will focus in on.One of the debates at the FCC is if they can put more DBS satellites in the middle of the existing slots (like 105.5 between 101 and 109) without causing all the current dishes to fail. This would be 4.5 degrees of separation and they are still worried.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Is the new satellite that is going to be launched at 105 going to be stronger than the one currently at 121?


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

What should I expect to pay for a Superdish (self install)? I haven't even seen any retail pricing for these things anywhere. If my locals happen to move from 105 to 121 will the Superdish work for either or?


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Sonnie Parker said:


> What should I expect to pay for a Superdish (self install)? I haven't even seen any retail pricing for these things anywhere. If my locals happen to move from 105 to 121 will the Superdish work for either or?


SuperDishes show up on Ebay for about $150. If you are going to sign up for locals anyways for a year, may as well have dish do the free install. Your locals should not move. The only markets that got moved were having problems getting 105 since it is an old satellite, so the markets changed to 121 early on, so few people should even have the wrong dish.

The 105 and 121 dishes cannot be configured to be interchangeable. Now, it appears that dish is sending out a new LNB set to switch them out. I.E. you have 105/110/119 LNB set and they send out the 110/119/121 which is exchanged and the dish is repointed. Now of course if you have a Dish500 or separate dishes for 119/110 it does not matter which superdish you have since you can just use the Ku-FSS LNB to point at either satellite and just ignore the 110/119 LNBS.

Once you have the dish it is probably less than $1 worth of anchors and bolts if you mount to a wall. Or if you go poll mount it will be more.

Like I mentioned above the cost of the dish on ebay (150) and the cost of installation will pay for half a year of AT60+locals anyways, may as well have Dish pay for the whole thing.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

Sonnie
If all your looking to do is hook locals up to one (or even 2) receivers, you can do a "Poor Mans" or "Hillbilly" Superdish for $100 or so. All you would need is
-30" or larger dish
-KU band LNBF (single or dual)
-a SW21 switch for each reciver


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

TonyM said:


> Sonnie
> If all your looking to do is hook locals up to one (or even 2) receivers, you can do a "Poor Mans" or "Hillbilly" Superdish for $100 or so. All you would need is
> -30" or larger dish
> -KU band LNBF (single or dual)
> -a SW21 switch for each reciver


This assumes you have legacy LNBs (not dish pro with a big DP stamp on the LNBs on the Dish) and a switch 64. If you have a SW64 then this is a lower cost alternative especially if you have an old dish lying around it could be virtually free.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

Mike123abc said:


> This assumes you have legacy LNBs (not dish pro with a big DP stamp on the LNBs on the Dish) and a switch 64. If you have a SW64 then this is a lower cost alternative especially if you have an old dish lying around it could be virtually free.


forgot to mention the DishPro thing 
He wouldnt need a SW64 if he has one or two receivers. Just use a dual LNBF for the 30" dish.
If he has a Legacy Twin, just hook it up like you would for a 61.5 or 148 dish, with a SW21.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

The SuperDish actually retails for $200 but I have also seen them for $150 (plus S&H) on ebay which includes the DP34 switch, reflector, mast, reflector, and owner's manual for the installation and switch.

The cheapest possible way to have a Poor Man's SuperDish without having any contract through Dish Network for the year or without having to get the minimal AT60 package is to get a PrimeStar dish with the lnbf (can be had for little or for nothing, find some houses with them still on the pole and ask for it). You will also need a legacy sw-21 switch (can be had for $15 or less) and have it connected to a dish with legacy lnbf(s) but will only give you even transponders when connected on the H (Horizontal polarity) output on the PrimeStar lnbf. There is a specific type of switch that will allow you to receive the even and odd transponders and I do not think that switch costs very much.

I have the cheapest setup that only cost me the price of the legacy sw-21 switch. I connected the Horizontal side of the PrimeStar lnbf to Dish 1 on the legacy sw-21 switch and connected the DirecTv lnbf off of a free DirecTv dish to the Dish 2 input of the legacy sw-21 switch. I get the even transponders off of 105 with that. I just happen to receive the main locals (NBC, ABC, FOX, CBS, WB) off of transponder 4 and thats the only locals I watch anyways (the odd transponder only picks up PBS and KETD), but in your area if you receive them off of an odd transponder then you would have to connect the other type of switch to receive the main local channels.

You could also buy an lnbf that will do the voltage changes itself allowing both even and odd transponders to come in without the special switch to go in place of the PrimeStar lnbf to get it to work for little money. I know that Dish Network has now started selling parts for the SuperDish but am not sure how much the cost of the lnbf is. If it does not cost much more then it would be preferred if you have a DishPro Dish 500 lnbf (you would need a DishPro sw-21 as well if you went this route).

All in all, your best bet would get the SuperDish upgrade offer from Dish Network. It would only cost you $5 or $6 per month for the locals for one year. Thats only $60-72 for a $200 SuperDish (plus free basic installation) if you have credit card autopay, $25 more if you do not.

You could also hook up the Poor Man's SuperDish to one receiver without any switches to pick up only those local channels if you have multiple receivers but most people would want to have all the channels on the receiver instead of just the locals.


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

Yeah... that's what I'm looking to do.... just the locals at 105 only. It will be 6 channels only and nothing will be needed on 110/119. I have 110/119 with the 500 now but I don't see where I'll need it anymore unless maybe I switch back to E* or D* one day. 

I have 2 SW21 switches now but don't even see where I'll need those really since it will just be 1 receiver that I'll be connecting. I'll look for a 30" dish and a KU band single LNBF. This way too I'll be able to point at 121 if for some reason E* does swap them from 105.

Everything I have is Legacy I believe... I'm using a 508 but had a 3000, 5000, 6000 and the 508. I'll be selling all but the 508 PVR. All this was connected via an SW44 and SW21.

I don't believe I can get the free upgrade without subscribing to at least AT60 which I don't want or need.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

If you are going to point at 105 I would go with 36" dish now... Or wait until the new satellite is up.


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

I think a friend of mine is not using an old Primestar dish but I understand some have had some problems getting a very strong signal using these. Maybe I should go ahead and get a 36" dish and the Ku lnbf.

I have seen the E* Superdishes for $135.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

If your locals are on an even transponder then all you need is a PrimeStar dish with the lnbf and connect it up to the H (horizontal) output on the lnbf. The PrimeStar dishes were at least 36" in width while others are even wider. Thats the cheapest setup you can get, probably free if you see any PrimeStar dishes still on poles in people's yards.


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

I've been looking around for one of the old Primestar dishes... my friend has already dished his and I can't seem to find one elsewhere.

I've been searching the net for some 36" dishes and found this one:










Satellite Dish - 90cm (Azure Shine) without LNBF: $79.00

Specifications for 90cm Offset Ku-Band Satellite Dish

FREQUENCY 10.95 - 12.75 
RANGE F/D RATIO 0.59 
OFFSET ANGLE 22.5 Degrees 
MIN. GAIN 40.0 @ 12.45 Ghz 
APERTURE EFF 69.5% Minimum 
REFLECTOR MATERIAL 0.039 Galvanealed Steel 
MOUNT MATERIAL 0.108 Galvanealed Steel 
STANDARD MOUNT Pole 
FINISH Powder Coat

and a KU LNBF:










Standard Single KU-Band LNBF [.6 rating][NOT UNIVERSAL] $21.00
Suitable for Analog and Digital Reception 
L.O. Frequency 10.75 
11.70 -12.5 GHz 0.6db Noise 
Voltage-Controlled H/V Switching [13/18 V]

$100 total plus I suppose some shipping.

Is this gonna do the trick for 105?


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

yep
I'm using the exact same LNBF for my FTA system (Duluth, MN locals were going to be on 105...then 121...then they crammed them on Dish500)


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

And you were using a 30" dish right? How was your signal? 

I can get the 30" dish for about $20 less money.

You are in MN and I'm in AL... not sure if I'm closer to the sats than you are.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

Sonnie Parker said:


> And you were using a 30" dish right? How was your signal?
> 
> I can get the 30" dish for about $20 less money.
> 
> You are in MN and I'm in AL... not sure if I'm closer to the sats than you are.


Technically, they say 105 won't work in MN...but I get about a 45 signal with a 30" dish..once they get the new satellite up, it will be around a 90
on 121 (the other Superdish bird) I get around a 90 

If your locals are going to be on 105, a 30" should be fine


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

105 is a pretty weak satellite. I am using a Ku-FSS 90cm (about 36"). I was getting 65-85 on the signal strength with evens being higher than odds. I just got down off the roof (whew it got hot up there) and swung the dish around to 121 since WF locals are going to be on 121. 121 gives 105+ signal strength.

105 is to be replaced in a couple months with a new satellite. I think that right now you would have a terrible time getting 105 with a 30" dish reliably.

Also, if you have the space for the larger dish you will save on rain fade.


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

I have the space... I was going to take down my Dish 500 and try to mount it in the same place on the roof and try to figure out a way to add some bracing. We are on top of a hill and the winds are gusty at times.

We've had some serious storms here lately and even Voom there's been no rain fade... but I know that's not Ku Band either. 

Ahhh... I'll probably just go ahead and get the 36" just to be on the safe side.


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## sikma (Dec 11, 2003)

As far as I know, the further south you are in the U.S. the stronger signal you'll have on 105 and 121. I use an old primestar in Wisconsin and get a very good signal on both, so you should have no trouble with a 30 or 36"


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

Well I have another friend who told me today he has an old Direcway satellite dish that he thinks is pretty big. I might pick up the Ku LNBF and give it a try before spending the money on a 36".


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## dishsystems (Jun 21, 2004)

customers may choose to pay dish for a superdish outright for $199 and it comes with a dp 34 switch in the box.If you have legacy equipment you could probably get a retailer to trade you out for a couple of sw-21's.By the way Spaun has a new 44 switch coming out soon as well.


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

I can't see paying Dish $199 if I can get it for about $150-160 on ebay and those include the DP-34 also. I'll probably just take the DIY route at even less for now.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

If someone was to pay Dish full price for the dish you might as well take the SuperDish upgrade promotion which would cost about the same over a year's time as what the AT60 package would cost and you would have all those extra channels to boot and a free basic installation which includes your wire and pole if needed (depending on if the installer charges extra for that or not).


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## Sonnie Parker (Nov 29, 2002)

Yeah... it would be close. $300/yr. for AT60 vs. $200 for the Superdish and install.

I'm not sure the install would be worth $100 for me though since everything is pretty much already set up. Now if I was to ever decide to switch back to E* it might be worth it but then again I'd already have the 500 for 110/119 and would still have my DIY for the 105.

I just think for my situation it's gonna be hard to beat either the Direcway dish for free + a $21 Ku LNBF or $100 for a new 36" dish and Ku LNBF and me do the install myself.


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## blakejames3000 (May 16, 2004)

hey I'm in new Orleans and i put up a 30 inch dish at 121 today getting ready for the new Orleans locals and I'm getting a 122 signal on transponder 29 where the locals are suppose to be and about 110 - 118 on the rest. 
but the signals on this sat fluctuate more than on the 119 and 110 like up to 3 or 4 points is this normal ? (the dish is tightened down) and i will wanna upgrade to superdish anyway (i will be with them a year and its free so i might as well) but i got a question i will active the locals the day they become available.....i will tell them i got a superdish equivalent but i also wanna schedule a superdish upgrade for free anyway will they let me do this and activate my locals on the setup i get until they install the superdish ???


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## esteg (Aug 27, 2003)

What About a 6' C/ku Band solid dish for locals? Is the ku -band LNBF the one needed for the locals? 
thanks


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## jlhugh (Oct 28, 2003)

Would an old gray Directpc dish work to bring in 121?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

esteg: It might work. Only one way to find out. 

jlhugh: I think that's big enough - ya gotta get the right LNBF.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

esteg said:


> What About a 6' C/ku Band solid dish for locals? Is the ku -band LNBF the one needed for the locals?
> thanks


Depends on which locals you need to get...some are on 110 & 119 (or even 148)

If they are on 121 or 105, then you would need a KU Band LNBF.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

jlhugh said:


> Would an old gray Directpc dish work to bring in 121?


yes. The LNBF will work too


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## esteg (Aug 27, 2003)

thanks for the info


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## blakejames3000 (May 16, 2004)

i got a homemade super dish set up for 121 and i use a DP34 and on all receivers i got the odd transponders with no problem and it shows those channels in the guide but it will not do even is their anyway i can get it to do both any special switch that i might need .... i have the lnb on the tilt and i get the signal in strong it just wont pick up the even transponders


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Sounds like your 121 LNBF isn't DishPro. If that's the case, there's no way it'll work with a DPxx switch.


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## esteg (Aug 27, 2003)

i have a six foot solid dish , what lnb is needed to get dish locals off 121?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Unfortunately, there is no DishPro LNBF available for FSS - except the ones that come with the SuperDish. I do NOT know how easy or hard it would be to make one of those work with a non-SuperDish setup.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Well I can say that the two superdishes I have (type 1 and type 2) both have the KU-FSS DP LNB built into the mounting bracket. It does not look like it would be too easy to get the LNB out of the bracket. But, I am not brave enough to try to take it all apart (don't want to give up my working versions for experiments).

If you do not want the commitment for the free SD from Dish, Ebay has them a lot of times for about $75 if you do not get a switch with it.


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## blakejames3000 (May 16, 2004)

well i was trying to poor mans superdish and it works on every receiver i have on the switch it picks up the odd all i need is transponder 29 for new Orleans locals but i got a 522 activated and it ain't accept the 121 because its only showing the odd it would have to show even/odd ..............so i guess ill have to commit for the free superdish i just didn't like the fact that sometimes you have to wait for months to get an install ...............anyway thanks for all your help


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

I think you will find that they have a ton of superdishes now and you will not have to wait very long at all for an install, they are no longer in short supply.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm suprised that he is even getting the odds if he has run a legacy lnb into a DP34. Since the DP34 sends out 20V I would have assumed that this would push the evens back down the line since they are 18V. What type of LNB are you using? The evens on a DP system are stacked to the 1650-2150Mhz range, and legacy won't push them to that band. I guess an adapter could be created along the lines of a multiswitch to convert a legacy LNB into a DP, but I have yet to see one.............


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SimpleSimon said:


> Unfortunately, there is no DishPro LNBF available for FSS - except the ones that come with the SuperDish. I do NOT know how easy or hard it would be to make one of those work with a non-SuperDish setup.


There is a third party stacking combiner that can take the separate horizontal and vertical feeds of an LNB and stack them. The trick would be to find an LNB with two outputs, the stacker, and make sure it stacked to the right frequencies.

JL


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I just checking out the Microyal site looking for a suitable stacker, and no joy. It was my guess that if anyone had it, they would. Also tried SatCure and Holland.

It seems that the available stackers do NOT output in the 'right' place (1650-2150MHz). Bummer.


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## blakejames3000 (May 16, 2004)

blakejames3000 said:


> i got a homemade super dish set up for 121 and i use a DP34 and on all receivers i got the odd transponders with no problem and it shows those channels in the guide but it will not do even is their anyway i can get it to do both any special switch that i might need .... i have the lnb on the tilt and i get the signal in strong it just wont pick up the even transponders


i did some working with it today and i got it to register with the dp34 switch and I'm getting a good signal on all the odd transponders (thats all i need for new Orleans locals) but here is a few pics of my poor mans superdish 
the only thing is the 522 gives lower signal than the 301's and the 508 
not the best job ...but it works for me


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Hey Blake, what are the specs on your dish and LNB. I'm still suprised that your LNB works with the DP34, as well, and would like to know where it came from. As for the 522 getting a lower sig strength, I have noticed that the 322/522s show about 10% lower signal for some reason. I can be pegged on a 311, but the 322 will show 110 of 125.....................


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Larry: I'm not surprised he's getting the odd transponders. His Check Switch is probably telling him he's got a fault on that bird for evens - but the box is still running with what it can get.

If he WAS getting both odds & evens through a DP switch - then I'd want to know exactly what LNB it was - because it would be the first DP-compatible FSS LNB (other than E*'s).


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## blakejames3000 (May 16, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> Hey Blake, what are the specs on your dish and LNB. I'm still suprised that your LNB works with the DP34, as well, and would like to know where it came from. As for the 522 getting a lower sig strength, I have noticed that the 322/522s show about 10% lower signal for some reason. I can be pegged on a 311, but the 322 will show 110 of 125.....................


its a 30 inch fta dish and its a samsung high gain fss lnb .. i could also get a signal with the other fta lnb's but this one gives me a better signal by 15 points or so. i didn't find an lnb to do even and odd yet just odd .

and it does show on the switch when i do a check switch it shows up "121 ....odd...feed" instead of "all" but the epg for 121 is on transponder 21 so you can get all the programming info . so IF your locals are on and odd transponder on 121 this would work for you.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm just suprised. DP pushes a 20V charge down the line, which would probably push the evens back. Does your LNB have different ports for the H & V? Even so, I am still stumped. Anything over 15.6 volts should send the evens back down with a switching LNB, so, unless you have a way to back the voltage down, you should be getting the evens back down to the switch. And, since the Evens are stacked to the upper band, and reversed if I am not mistaken, a legacy LNB shouldn't work at all on a DP setup.

Hey, can you also post a picture of your check switch screen, and of the details screen? I'm curious, and would appriciate it. Thanx


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Larry: You're right! I hadn't thought about THAT.

UNLESS  Oh this is good!  He's got the LNB head turned 90 degrees! 
Could it be???

Remember - a conventional LNB puts out evens in the same band and order as odds. And IIRC, the only thing the voltage does is switch V vs. H - there's no frequency shifting.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

OK, what the heck is "IIRC"?? I keep seeing it, and have NO idea what you mean by it. Also, I wasn't aware you could hook up the H/V backwards and it would work, but I guess since it doesn't switch, it may not matter, but if it does, could it end up burning out his LNB?


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## blakejames3000 (May 16, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> I'm just suprised. DP pushes a 20V charge down the line, which would probably push the evens back. Does your LNB have different ports for the H & V? Even so, I am still stumped. Anything over 15.6 volts should send the evens back down with a switching LNB, so, unless you have a way to back the voltage down, you should be getting the evens back down to the switch. And, since the Evens are stacked to the upper band, and reversed if I am not mistaken, a legacy LNB shouldn't work at all on a DP setup.
> 
> Hey, can you also post a picture of your check switch screen, and of the details screen? I'm curious, and would appriciate it. Thanx


heres the pics

i added the details pic also


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Ok, now how about the dteails screen, where it breaks down what is connected and how.....That's actually what I was looking for.....thanx.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

larrystotler said:


> OK, what the heck is "IIRC"??


If I recall correctly ...

JL


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> OK, what the heck is "IIRC"?? I keep seeing it, and have NO idea what you mean by it. Also, I wasn't aware you could hook up the H/V backwards and it would work, but I guess since it doesn't switch, it may not matter, but if it does, could it end up burning out his LNB?


IIRC = If I Remember Correctly. 

It's not backwards, just sideways - if in fact that's what he's done.

*blakejames3000 - any idea what we're talking about here? Do you know if the LNB is rotated?*

As for burnout, I doubt it - LNBs have been left sitting on a given polarity forever. Course, I'm thinking C-Band where it was done with a stepping motor twisting a little piece of metal inside the feedhorn. I never did figure out just how that worked. Advantage was that you could set skew offsets at the receiver - and you needed to because the angles changes as you moved the dish to hit different birds. Anyway, E* LNBFs don't seem to care which transponder they're left on - and I would imagine it's a similar technology - electronic, no moving parts - but I'm just speculating on that.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

blakejames3000 said:


> heres the pics
> 
> i added the details pic also


Cool, that's what I wanted to see. Interesting, it says it is a DP LNB Thanx.


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## blakejames3000 (May 16, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> IIRC = If I Remember Correctly.
> 
> It's not backwards, just sideways - if in fact that's what he's done.
> 
> ...


yes it is rotated in the opposite direction your correct ...when i hook it directly to a 301 receiver and turn it 90 degrees i get ALL transponders but it does not work with the DP34 so i turned it 90 degrees and did a check switch with a DP34 and got the odds 
it seems to function normal just as the other satellites, same time to switch to a channel on the 121


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I love it when a plan comes together! High Five!

blakejames3000 is to be commended for thinking outside the box to get-r-done. 

And there's yet ANOTHER configuration for the database. Whew.


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## esteg (Aug 27, 2003)

Dish 500 twins sw64 and 6' solid dish what LNB do i need to get 121 , legacy everything.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

All you need is a standard FSS Lnb, like from a Primestar dish.


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## sanjiv428 (Aug 16, 2004)

Hello,
Can I get 121 (ku lnb), 110 & 119 ( twin 500 lnb ) all on one 36" dish with a sw21 (for 1 dp301)?

Thanks


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

sanjiv428 said:


> Hello,
> Can I get 121 (ku lnb), 110 & 119 ( twin 500 lnb ) all on one 36" dish with a sw21 (for 1 dp301)?
> 
> Thanks


No. A Twin is not going to give you the physical spacing you need to get the 121 LNB in the right place.

Two options:
1.Make your 36" dish 121 only and add a standard Dish 500 & SW64 (the SW21 won't do the FSS switching AFAIK).
2. Get a SuperDish.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

Simon
The SW21 will do the switching as long as the Twin is a Legacy....tried it the other day and it worked


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Cool! Thanks, TonyM


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

worked on my 301 (didnt try the 508)


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

If you use a P* style LNB, you can use a D* style 4 way multiswitch, and then tie it in with an SW21. Channel Master made a 2 way switch at 1 time as well. I actually have one, but don't have it handy.


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## sanjiv428 (Aug 16, 2004)

Thanks Guys!

I have 1 (stupid?) question, does anyone has a suggestion as to how to secure the twin 500 and the Ku lnb together ( tie strap?)

Thanks again


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

How much do those D* 4 way multiswitch cost? Aint they cheaper than the SW-64 switch? 

Also I would like to get a non DP Ku lnbf that would work with a DP34 (or DP21) that would bring in the even transponders instead of the odd ones because the main locals (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, WB) come in on an even transponder while just the PBS and KET feeds come in on the odd in which I can do without.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Jacob S said:


> How much do those D* 4 way multiswitch cost? Aint they cheaper than the SW-64 switch?
> 
> Also I would like to get a non DP Ku lnbf that would work with a DP34 (or DP21) that would bring in the even transponders instead of the odd ones because the main locals (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, WB) come in on an even transponder while just the PBS and KET feeds come in on the odd in which I can do without.


Sorry, guy - ain't gona happen. DishPro gear requries the even transponders to be in the high band (1650-2150MHz) I've never heard of a conventional LNBF that would do that. Maybe something can be hacked together if you can find the right block converters, but you'll spend less just getting a DP SuperDish.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

sanjiv428 said:


> Thanks Guys!
> 
> I have 1 (stupid?) question, does anyone has a suggestion as to how to secure the twin 500 and the Ku lnb together ( tie strap?)
> 
> Thanks again


As I said in post #79, you are not going to be able to do it. You need to get the 119 side of the Twin and the 121 LNBF within 2 degrees of each other, and the housings simply don't allow it to happen. See attached pic. Note the 110 LNBF is a standard Single/Dual. Now note the other 2 are jammed right next to each other without any housings.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> As I said in post #79, you are not going to be able to do it. You need to get the 119 side of the Twin and the 121 LNBF within 2 degrees of each other, and the housings simply don't allow it to happen. See attached pic. Note the 110 LNBF is a standard Single/Dual. Now note the other 2 are jammed right next to each other without any housings.


And that the 121 is actually curved as well.

Jacob: As for the D* multiswitchs, Perfect 10 sells one for about $10. Then, you would tie in 1 line from it to an SW21.

Also, the problem is that E* doesn't make or support a standalone DP FSS LNB. Legacy is so far the only way with poor man's SD......, unless you only need the odds trans.


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## Mike Phillips (May 14, 2002)

I have the possibility of getting a used Superdish without the Dishpro Lnbs or holder. Is there a Lnbf holder that would fit the arm of a Superdish so I could buy a Ku standard Lnbf to use on it and use it with a SW64 switch? Is the Superdish , if I could fit with a Ku lnbf, large enough to use with a FTA receiver to get G10 ? Thanks for your responses, Mike


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mike Phillips said:


> I have the possibility of getting a used Superdish without the Dishpro Lnbs or holder. Is there a Lnbf holder that would fit the arm of a Superdish so I could buy a Ku standard Lnbf to use on it and use it with a SW64 switch? Is the Superdish , if I could fit with a Ku lnbf, large enough to use with a FTA receiver to get G10 ? Thanks for your responses, Mike


It could be fun finding a used one in a market where the first new one was only sold late last year (November?). Most people doing homebrews are using used Primestar dishes.

JL


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

You'd have to take into account that the tilt of the SD is the skew on the LNB. Also, I have had better luck with a larger P* dish on the 105, so I guess it will depend upon which one you were aiming at.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Mike123abc said:


> No, 105 and 121 require a larger dish and a different LNB on the dish to recieve them.


Hey Mike, I had a thought. When you tried to run the DP+44 and the DP34 together with the DP21, were you tieing into the same set of sats on the switches? I would think that it wouldn't show the same sat twice in the switch summary screen would it? Or did you actually try to set up the 6th dish and point it at the 148? I would assume that they have removed the logic for the 129 from most receivers now, so that wouldn't help....would it?


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> Hey Mike, I had a thought. When you tried to run the DP+44 and the DP34 together with the DP21, were you tieing into the same set of sats on the switches? I would think that it wouldn't show the same sat twice in the switch summary screen would it? Or did you actually try to set up the 6th dish and point it at the 148? I would assume that they have removed the logic for the 129 from most receivers now, so that wouldn't help....would it?


Well I only have 5 satellites. So, for the DPP44/DP34 tie in test to the DP21, I put 3 satellites on DPP44 and left one port empty, and put 2 satellites on the DP34 and left one port empty. This was just to see if a receiver could see 3 switches at the same time. The receiver only saw 2 switches. The switch that was on port 1 of the DP21 was what the receiver would see. Port 2 would just show the satellite on port 1 of the switch connected there. I could put the DP34 on port one and it would see DP34/DP21. I could put DPP44 on port 1 and it would see DPP44/DP21.

Note that if you are only using 2 switches you can put a satellite on port 1 of the DP21 and the other switch (DPP44 or DP34) on port 2 and it will see both switches.

The logic I seem to have found was if the first switch is a DP21 then it will look for a switch on side 1. If it finds a switch on side 1 it will stop looking. If it does not find a switch on side one it will look on side 2.

I was not able to get 3 switches to be seen in any testing. I also just for experiment tried the DPP44 as the first switch and the DP21 behind it (would be cool to have 8 satellites) but the receivers would not recognize this at all.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Mike123abc said:


> Well I only have 5 satellites. So, for the DPP44/DP34 tie in test to the DP21, I put 3 satellites on DPP44 and left one port empty, and put 2 satellites on the DP34 and left one port empty. This was just to see if a receiver could see 3 switches at the same time. The receiver only saw 2 switches. The switch that was on port 1 of the DP21 was what the receiver would see. Port 2 would just show the satellite on port 1 of the switch connected there. I could put the DP34 on port one and it would see DP34/DP21. I could put DPP44 on port 1 and it would see DPP44/DP21.


Yeah switching is a pain. I have another question. I was wondering whether a legacy receiver could work with a DP Adapter and see all 5 sats. Since it appears that the legacy sees the DP+44 as an SW64/SW21 combo, then I don't really think it would work, but I have a guy who is intent on getting all 5 sats with a legacy system, and I just don't think the ol;der boxes can manage it. The only way I can think of that you could get 3 switched would be to use a legacy quad into an SW64 and then an SW21. But that's kinda pointless, and a waste of a quad....


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

I think legacy will only do 4 satellites. The DP adapter makes it look like a SW64 or only 3 satellites.


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## MaintMan (Dec 28, 2003)

I did a poor mans super dish is Dec because I was not willing to wait two months just to get an appointment for install. Got an old P* dish free and got an lnb from tchan on Ebay and all is well. Had P* till they went away, and still had mount, so all I was out was time and about $40. I suggest getting a dual FSS lnb as the P* lnbs only had 1 output. Since Dish changed the pricing structure, locals do not really cost extra now.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Most P* dishes had the dual LNB. Only the newer dishes had the single.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

The newer dishes that had the single, would it be able to have both even and odd transponders without having a special SW-64 switch to change the H/V polarities?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

No, a single LNB can't drive a switch. 

Legacy switches force one side of the LNB into odd (13V) and the other into even (18V).


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

I think he was wondering if the newer single port P* LNBs can be used without an SW44/64. As far as I know, the LNB can internally switch between the 2 voltages, and it could be ran into an SW21. However, if you wanted more than 1 receiver hooked up, you would need a 2 port LNB and a simple 2x4 multiswitch aka D*. Then you could run it into the lines from a 500 Twin or 500 Quad with SW21s.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I generalized it - you can't use a single with ANY switch.

Exception: If you have 2 separate dishes with singles, you could put one into the "A" side, and the other into the "B" side of a switch port.

I could see one of US nut-cases doing that, but not a typical consumer.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Except Dish PRO...........  

Gotcha!

Anyway, I dug out an SW42, and I am trying an SW64/SW42/SW21 cascade. Will post the results later when I am done. Of course, I'm only pointing at 2 dishes, so.............


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Larry - how about posting the results over in the mad Scientist's thread - helps to keep all the data in one place.


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## esteg (Aug 27, 2003)

dish 500 legacy dual into a sw64 second 30" dish for 121 ,do i need single lnbf running one lead to the sw64 switch or do i need a dual lnbf and run two lines to the sw64? 
thanks for any help


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Dual - Legacy switches require 2 feeds per bird. You can NOT use a Single LNBF.


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## esteg (Aug 27, 2003)

well i hook up dual fss lnbf on 30" dish to 3a & 3b of sw64 trying to get 121, all i get is ,installed switch sw64 ,super dish/129 ,satellite reception verified. i can not adjust or pickup 121 >all legancy duals on dish 500 & no problem 0n 110 & 119.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Well, that sounds like a mis-aimed dish. Pardon me if you already said that it works when you hook the 121 feeds directly to the box. 

And if you haven't - well that's the next step, eh?


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## esteg (Aug 27, 2003)

thanks for the input been a long time since i played with these i'll have to hook direct


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## esteg (Aug 27, 2003)

Thanks Simple Simon i was off by a few degrees just hated to drag out cables and unhook ,rehook cables did get 80+ on 121. now i know this system will work at my cottage in northern wis. when i go down to work on the place this fall.
thanks


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## redhorse1973 (Aug 25, 2003)

TonyM said:


> Simon
> The SW21 will do the switching as long as the Twin is a Legacy....tried it the other day and it worked


Tony,

I have a Twin Legacy Lnb (fat lnb) & wanna catch the 121 Sat...I have a 35"x21" dish & need to get a Ku Band Lnb...all I need is a SW21 & cascade it to my Twin Legacy & this will get me the 121 Sat?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

redhorse: Welcome aboard!

The Twin/SW-21 switch setup should work just fine.

This assumes you can get the new LNB mounted to the wide dish - what type is it?


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## redhorse1973 (Aug 25, 2003)

SimpleSimon,

Got it from fleaEbay, it was a misrepresented item, initially I wanted a PrimeStar Dish as what the seller shown on the picture, instead i got something more looking like a StarChoice Elliptical Dish & was spray painted black so I dont see/know exactly who the Sat Provider (logo) is. Had it over a year now so deciding to make good use of it.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

So, it's a Ku dish and you've got the LNB arm for it, yes?


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## redhorse1973 (Aug 25, 2003)

SimpleSimon, Yes it came with the arm...This is what i found from another site regarding Twin Legacy Lnb to be cascaded with 121.

"If you have a dual output FSS LNB then you will need a small DTV style 2x4 or 3x4 multi-switch. The reason is on a dual output FSS LNB each output only has one polarity. One output is for the vertical polarity and the other is for the horizontal. The multi-switch gives each of it's outputs access to both polarities by using the IRD's 13 and 18 switching voltage. If you only connect 1 of the outputs of a dual output FSS LNB to the SW21 then you will only get 1/2 of the channels on the 121 (105 too) bird. If you have a single output FSS LNB then both polarities are available on that output, but only one can be accessed at a time. What does that mean? It means that a single output FSS LNB can only drive one IRD. Period, end of story. I don't care how many, or what type of switches you use, a single output FSS LNB will only drive one IRD. Now a dual output LNB can drive multiple IRD's by using a standard DTV style multi-switch."


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Best bet is to always get a dual output LNB unless you only have a need for 1 receiver.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

redhorse: I believe the post you quoted only applies to certain types of FSS LNBFs.

IIRC, some dual output are like E* & D* DSS LNBFs - that is they act as if they are 2 singles in one box. This is good.

OTOH, some are like the quote says - Horizontal on one port, Vertical on the other. If that's what you got, then, yes some sort of external switch is needed to give an output that an E* receiver can deal with.


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## redhorse1973 (Aug 25, 2003)

SimpleSimon said:


> redhorse: I believe the post you quoted only applies to certain types of FSS LNBFs.
> 
> IIRC, some dual output are like E* & D* DSS LNBFs - that is they act as if they are 2 singles in one box. This is good.
> 
> OTOH, some are like the quote says - Horizontal on one port, Vertical on the other. If that's what you got, then, yes some sort of external switch is needed to give an output that an E* receiver can deal with.


SimpleSimon,

I have this type of LNB:

INPUT: 11.7-12.2 Ghz OUTPUT: 950 - 1450 Mhz

13/18 v Dual Output Digital KU LNBF LNBFD


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Well, I don't know much about Ku LNBFs, but the fact that is says "13/18v" implies to me that it's a voltage switched unit - which is exactly what you need.


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## redhorse1973 (Aug 25, 2003)

ok, I found a picture similar to my dish, I think this is exactly what it is...says Hughes, does this mean it was for DTV?


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## redhorse1973 (Aug 25, 2003)

^^

this would be good to get the 121/105 Sat?


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## redhorse1973 (Aug 25, 2003)

SimpleSimon

would you know if a 24" Dish will work on to getting the 121/105 Sat?


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

I may be wrong, but that looks like an old DirecPC dish w/ the 101 LNB for DTV. Does the center LNB have any marking on it that say FSS or 11.7-12.2 Ghz? Also, if you have a single LNB like the picture, it will only work on 1 receiver unless you get a Dual LNB, and it looks like a P* LNB would work just fine. As for using a 24" dish, I would say probably not. I have had low signal on the 105 woth a 35x26" dish. Really good signal with a 40x30" dish. Good luck.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

This is a long thread, and I forget where we started with this - Legacy vs. DishPro and all that jazz.

Anyway, the dish IS big enough for 105, but as Larry says, that may be a DSS LNBF on the side, not the FSS one you need. The center LNB may be golden for what you want - or it may be worthless because it might've been some special weird data-only thing for the original DirecPC.

Oh - and Larry's right, 24" dish is not gonna cut it for 105 - it's bad enough with a 24x36. I say hang that puppy on a pole, throw the first LNBF on it (NO switches!) and have some fun finding stuff.


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## redhorse1973 (Aug 25, 2003)

when I got the dish, it came with a DSS DTV Lnb, not like the one on the picture, how about the 121 sat, will a 24" dish be ok to use?


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

You may be able to get a signal with the 121 since E* IX is a new bird and a lot more powerful than AMC2, but it will probably go out when it gets cloudy.


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## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

I rememeber where I started with this thread when I started with it. The question orignally was what is the difference between a Dish Network Superdish and a Poor Mans Superdish, lol...


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