# So now I'm seeing some of the R15's issues...



## Phroz (Jul 3, 2006)

My first week I really didn't have any issues with it, and now, after it's getting a lot more use, well...

Latest example:

Feasting on Asphalt (Food Network) was set to record last Saturday at 9pm. I verified it was listed in MyVOD, but I didn't get around to watching it 'til tonight. The first 30 minutes are fine. Right at the 30 minute mark the video freezes but the audio continues for the rest of the show with that stillframe still on the screen. The time-bar fails to work after the 30-minute mark though. Fast-forwarding or jumping back will just freeze the unit and cause the screen to go black.

There was also a few occasions where only half of a 1-hour show was recorded, but that seems to be fairly common. A number of recorded shows have had some slight audio and/or video glitches as well, but I never really thought much of it because they only lasted maybe 1 or 2 seconds.

Still, my faith in this unit is quickly dwindling...


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

There have been many here that swore by the R15 up until the point they started experiencing the problems many here run into. You're not alone, but I know that's not an answer.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

I was one of them. :nono2: My R-15 worked great the first weeks/month and I thought everyone was crazy and just complaining about all the problems. Why were all these people so anti R-15 I thought. Then over the next months it got so bad I had to even stop using it and go back to my DirecTiVo.

Now I have 2 R-15's and 1 R-10 and can overlook the small issues as if you think its bad now, you should have seen it 7-8 months ago.


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## trnsfrguy (Nov 11, 2004)

Bobman said:


> I was one of them. :nono2: My R-15 worked great the first weeks/month and I thought everyone was crazy and just complaining about all the problems. Why were all these people so anti R-15 I thought. Then over the next months it got so bad I had to even stop using it and go back to my DirecTiVo.
> 
> Now I have 2 R-15's and 1 R-10 and can overlook the small issues as if you think its bad now, you should have seen it 7-8 months ago.


I just got mine on saturday and was thinking the same thing. So far, nothing weird has happened.
But, I keep reading these posts and am preparing myself for eventuality of the problems that will come.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

trnsfrguy said:


> I just got mine on saturday and was thinking the same thing. So far, nothing weird has happened.
> But, I keep reading these posts and am preparing myself for eventuality of the problems that will come.


You might be in pretty safe shape.

You're getting it after most of the most egrigious errors have been addressed, and by the time you load it up enough to see the remaining problems, a new upgraded might be available.

IMO, the R15 is now at the point where it should have been on day one.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

ApK said:


> IMO, the R15 is now at the point where it should have been on day one.


For me I can't consider it ready until there are no limits (or at least limits that are large enough so as to be invisible). I've already had to delete about five recordings from the To Do list to make room for unrelated recordings, and my primary DVR (with 30 fewer hours of storage and room left for suggestions) has over 50 Season Passes on it.


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## rabi (Feb 10, 2006)

walters said:


> my primary DVR (with 30 fewer hours of storage and room left for suggestions) has over 50 Season Passes on it.


who has the time to watch that much tv????


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

rabi said:


> who has the time to watch that much tv????


Not sure what that has to do with anything. Why have space for 100 hours if all you're ever going to put on it is stuff you will definitely watch?


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

walters said:


> For me I can't consider it ready until there are no limits (or at least limits that are large enough so as to be invisible). I've already had to delete about five recordings from the To Do list to make room for unrelated recordings, and my primary DVR (with 30 fewer hours of storage and room left for suggestions) has over 50 Season Passes on it.


If we were on the design team, I'd agree with you.
But as a consumer, it's really more of a personal needs issue or a feature request than a problem. If the limits cause this DVR to not meet your needs, then get a different DVR that does.

It would be like saying a Porche doesn't have enough head room for you, so the car isn't ready. That's the way the car was designed...don't like it, get a different car. Now, it's good to keep reminding them that many of their potential customers need more headroom, and if they're smart, they'll listen.

But in the case of the R15's limits, the huge swath of users on the bell curve will have no problems. I consider myself a heavy user, and I haven't hit the limits yet.

EDIT: I didn't want to give the impression that I think the limits are 'ok'. I don't. It was a bad design choice. If the major bugs are indeed fixed, and we stop letting our Tivo carry some of the weight, I'm sure we'll hit the limits, too.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

rabi said:


> who has the time to watch that much tv????


At my highest, I had approx. 130 SP's on my R-10. I just record everything and anything I think I might like. Almost never watch any live TV. If I do see something that is on live that I like, I press record and then watch something I recorded until it's done. I need to skip around.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

ApK -- I'm not sure I agree with your car headroom analogy. It is more like you buy a car which doesn't go faster than 60 mph. Sure that might be fast enough for most local driving, but it won't be sufficient on a highway.

In the case of the R15, a limit of 100 items on the ToDo list might be OK most of the time, but if you have a Series Link for a show which is running a marathon, or which is on several times every day, you can quickly add 20 to 40 items to the ToDo list from just one series. Multiply that by 3 or 4 Series Links, and you've hit the limit. Add in Search/Find autorecords, and the problem just gets worse. That means the R15 won't allow you to "Automatically record every episode of your favorite shows" as promised.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Phroz said:


> Feasting on Asphalt (Food Network) was set to record last Saturday at 9pm. I verified it was listed in MyVOD, but I didn't get around to watching it 'til tonight. The first 30 minutes are fine. Right at the 30 minute mark the video freezes but the audio continues for the rest of the show with that stillframe still on the screen. The time-bar fails to work after the 30-minute mark though. Fast-forwarding or jumping back will just freeze the unit and cause the screen to go black.


Any chance it was due to weather? Did it show as a partial in History?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ApK said:


> If we were on the design team, I'd agree with you.
> But as a consumer, it's really more of a personal needs issue or a feature request than a problem. If the limits cause this DVR to not meet your needs, then get a different DVR that does.


So what different DVR is a DTV customer to choose from? R10, yes, many are but their days are numbered. The limits do effect the over all performance of the unit. In the current test I'm running (in this thread) my R15 is pegged at 99 TDL items through 08/20. My Tivo has 143 TDL items (I've taken off all of the Tivo and DVR service items from that count) through 08/22. The difference that I'm starting to see is that DVRs without limits can build a TDL that will not need a change unless the user changes priorities, adds new records or the guide changes. Other than that once Tivo creates it's TDL it pretty much stays the same. On the other hand what I've seen from the R15 is that is TDL is constantly changing...up to the moment shows are to record. It only has room for 100 and as a result you can end up with recording problems.

It now makes sense in that people complain that it takes too long to add a recording or adjust SPs on Tivo compared to the R15. But it appears the Tivo does all of it's TDL mods as you make you change. The R15 says OK and hopes it can get everything right later. Sometimes it doesn't.

A consumer wants their DVR to record what it's told to record. As I am watching my unit much closer in this test, I see the R15 is fighting with itself in many instances.


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## Phroz (Jul 3, 2006)

qwerty said:


> Any chance it was due to weather? Did it show as a partial in History?


I thought about that, but I don't think it was the weather. It wasn't listed as a partial.

Generally when I lose my signal (and that happens a lot around here in the summer because of storms), I lose it completely. It seems a bit odd that I'd get the full 60 minutes of audio but only 30 minutes of video.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Upstream said:


> ApK -- I'm not sure I agree with your car headroom analogy. It is more like you buy a car which doesn't go faster than 60 mph. Sure that might be fast enough for most local driving, but it won't be sufficient on a highway.
> 
> In the case of the R15, a limit of 100 items on the ToDo list might be OK most of the time, but if you have a Series Link for a show which is running a marathon, or which is on several times every day, you can quickly add 20 to 40 items to the ToDo list from just one series. Multiply that by 3 or 4 Series Links, and you've hit the limit. Add in Search/Find autorecords, and the problem just gets worse. That means the R15 won't allow you to "Automatically record every episode of your favorite shows" as promised.


There ARE cars that can't do over sixty. People who don't need to drive on the highway buy them. So do clowns, I think. Same point.

As for "automatically record your favorite shows?" Well, what if your favorite shows aren't aired on the channels you get. Be reasonable.

The point is, it's not a problem that needs to be fixed before it'll work as designed. It's a design choice that a lot of it's customers think is foolish and bad.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So what different DVR is a DTV customer to choose from? R10, yes, many are but their days are numbered.


Tivo
Windows Media Center
MythTV 
FreeVo

There may be more.

A few years ago there was one choice.
Before that there was none.

Days numbered is irrelevent. They'll work until they don't and who knows what the choices will be then.

My point, again, is that the limits are not a bug to fix, they are a poor, limiting, design choice. They may never change it, or they might change it in the next update, or they might change it in the R-16 or whatever comes out next year, and if that's a show stopper for someone, so be it.

It's the same as someone saying "I need 300 GB or I can't POSSIBLY record ALL my favorite shows as promised...I love them all! So until they fix that too-small-drive problem, they shouldn't have even shipped it."


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ApK said:
 

> Tivo
> Windows Media Center
> MythTV
> FreeVo
> ...


The options you listed do not provide digital signals. They are not integrated options.

Maybe limits should not be considered a bug, I guess they should be more of a design flaw.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> The options you listed do not provide digital signals. They are not integrated options.
> 
> Maybe limits should not be considered a bug, I guess they should be more of a design flaw.


I honestly think more then a flaw it was an oversight on their part. I don't think that the design team thought people would hit them. I really do wonder what these limits are there for? Is this some sort of deep down problem tht needs a huge code change to fix? Just wondering.


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## trnsfrguy (Nov 11, 2004)

So, now it's my turn to see this dvr's issues. Upon switching between two channels,
the R15 decides to go to ch. 201.
If I enter the channel numbers using the number pad, everything is fine. If I use the "back" button, it goes to 201 no matter what channel I was watching before.
A reset seems to have solved the issue. For now.......


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## Mordha (Jul 18, 2006)

My first real issue with my R15 happened starting sunday. The 30 slip was only letting me go once, instead of letting me pad it like 7 or 8 times. A reset helped me out. I can only hope that this isn't any sign of things to come. The thing is, I've had issues with my HR10 too. So I sure can't say the R15 isn't ready for "primetime" and say the HR10 is flawless. Both units do the job I ask of them, most of time but I've had fewer missed recording on my R15. I realize that sounds backwards to everyone here but thats just my personal experience. BTW, I've had my HR10 since last year August and my R15 since March, if that matters any.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> I honestly think more then a flaw it was an oversight on their part. I don't think that the design team thought people would hit them. I really do wonder what these limits are there for? Is this some sort of deep down problem tht needs a huge code change to fix? Just wondering.


That could very well be. But I would have hoped that the design team for DTV's next generation DVR had actually used a DVR some time in their short 25 years of life. If the design team said to themselves that no one would need more that 50 SLs or 100 TDL items they've never used a DVR and shouldn't have been included in the design team. IMO.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> On the other hand what I've seen from the R15 is that is TDL is constantly changing...up to the moment shows are to record. It only has room for 100 and as a result you can end up with recording problems


Like I posted in a couple other threads, the to do list limitation IS a major source of the R-15's problems. Many people with more technical knowledge than I have also said this.


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> That could very well be. But I would have hoped that the design team for DTV's next generation DVR had actually used a DVR some time in their short 25 years of life. If the design team said to themselves that no one would need more that 50 SLs or 100 TDL items they've never used a DVR and shouldn't have been included in the design team. IMO.


If no one was gonna hit those limits, then you don't need to set the limit right?

It was a design choice. and like many others a bad one. It didn't accidently sneak in there and IF it did it is no wonder the machine has perfrormed so poorly they don't even know what's in the code.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

ApK -- I get your point that the limits are not a bug but a design choice. But it is a design choice which prevents the R15 from doing what it promises, and therefore is a defect which needs to be fixed (even if it is defective design). Your point about it not being able to record shows on channels I don't receive is not a valid point. The documentation for the R15 indicates that it requires a DirecTV subscription to receive programming -- obviously it can't record shows which I don't subscribe to. Likewise the documentation says that it can only record 2 shows at once (with two active tuner set up), so I can't complain if it doesn't record 3 shows at once. Also it says that it can only store approx 100 hours of programming, so I can't complain that it doesn't store 200 hours.

But nowhere did it say or imply that you were limited in the number of shows or series you could schedule for recording. So that is a defect.

Also, as Bobman pointed out, the limit seems to cause other problems with the machine not functioning as described (another defect).

If DirecTV told me in advance that the R15 was limited to scheduling 100 shows to record, and if the limits did not cause other problems with the machine, then I would have no real complaints about the limits. In that case, raising the limits would be like adding autotune, a nice feature to add in the future.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> The options you listed do not provide digital signals. They are not integrated options.


They also don't make coffee and they don't repel tigers.

None of these things are problems. They are features. No one guarenteed you any of them. They are just things you want.* You were never promised a customized built to order DVR and you are not automatically entitled to anything but a machine that works as designed. If you don't like the features and limitations desinged into it, don't buy it. No one owes you a 'fix'. If you like some of the features enough to use it anyway (like integration and digitial signal) then pay your money, enjoy those features and suggest they include more things you want in next years model.

* All thoughout, I mean 'you' in general, not you, Wolf, personally. I want the same stuff, of course. It's presumtions and attitude of entitlement I'm objecting to.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Upstream said:


> But nowhere did it say or imply that you were limited in the number of shows or series you could schedule for recording. So that is a defect.
> 
> Also, as Bobman pointed out, the limit seems to cause other problems with the machine not functioning as described (another defect).


Your statement is correct, your conclusion is not.
Nowhere did it say or imply that you were limited in the number of shows or series you could schedule for recording. So that is incomplete documentation.

Similarly, no where did it say or imply that you couldn't search for shows using Hebrew or Chinese characters. If that's a priority for me, I have everyright to not like the unit and not use it. I have no right to demand they 'fix' it.

If the limits cause other problems, then sure, those are problems that need to be fixed, and if there is God in heaven or a brain in DTV, they'll fix those issues by removing/increasing the limits, but I hope you see the distinction.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ApK said:


> None of these things are problems. They are features. No one guarenteed you any of them. They are just things you want.* You were never promised a customized built to order DVR and you are not automatically entitled to anything but a machine that works as designed.


But I was promised:


DirecTv's Website said:


> Surf the easy-to-use on-screen guide or search by show title, person, keyword or channel. Schedule recordings up to 14 days in advance!
> 
> Just highlight your search result and choose the show you want to record.


...and I can't do that when my TDL is pegged at 100. If I see a show I want to record I have to go in and delete something else and then "quickly" flag the show I want to record before the TDL goes back up. That to me is a defect.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

You also can't do it if you're hard drive is full or if you have no electricty.

It's not defect, you're just unhappy with the design limits.

I don't know how else to make my point. Let's just say that if we were lawyers arguing this point in court I'd be very happy to be on my side. . . .


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Are you done coming up with strawmen?

I'm afraid I started this whole mess. You said it is now where it should have been on release. I said it isn't there yet (_for me_) and won't be until it has no limits (i.e. until it is greater than or equal to the previous DVRs, as promised). Whether it's a bug, causes a bug, or is a design defect is all semantics. The point is it's not "DirecTV's most advanced DVR" (as described in December 2005), and won't be until it can do at least as much as my R10 (or my DSR6000 for that matter) can do. Namely: keep track of more than 50 series.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

I think they are valid analogies to try to illustrate the flaw in reasoning, not strawman arguments.

And I don't think it's a mess, especially if it helps some reader understand the difference between a problem report and a feature request.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

Upstream said:


> If DirecTV told me in advance that the R15 was limited to scheduling 100 shows to record


If I knew the R-15 was limited to only 50 SL's, I never would have tried it many months now being I had 100++ SP's on my DirecTiVo. Now I am using two of them and have to pay an extra $5 a month so it can do what one DirecTiVo can.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

ApK --

Thanks for taking a critical look at my argument. 

I think we are in agreement that the other problems caused by the limits need to be fixed (even if they are fixed without raising the limits).

Regarding the limits themselves:

"Automatically record every episode" implies that there are no limits on the number of shows scheduled to record. Just like if the documentation said "search for shows in any language" I should expect to be able to search for shows in Hebrew or Chinese. If it said "search for shows in selected languages" or "search for shows in several languages", that expectation doesn't exist.

To your argument that the limit is just a documentation oversight, I could argue that it is intentional deception on the part of DTV. There is nothing in any of the DTV advertising or documentation which even hints at a limit. And with the limit set at 100 (versus 1000, for example) I could argue that the R15 is not reasonably fit to perform as expected. 

Based on the documentation and advertising for the R15, I should reasonably expect to record 2 shows at a time, up to 14 days in advance, for a total of 100 hours of recording. So even at a moderate level of recording only during evening primetime, you would expect to record 4 half-hour shows on 2 channels for a total of 8 scheduled recordings per night, or 112 over 14 days. (Or similarly reasonable, in a household of 2 adults and 2 children, with each person scheduling 2 shows per day, you also hit over 100 in a 14 day timeframe.)

Again, since DTV did not state that there is a limit of 100, based on all the other information DTV provides about the R15, it is not reasonable to expect a limit of 100.

So if the defect is a defect of documentation, it is more likely intentionally deceptive documentation --- especially given the fact that DTV today knowing the complaints about the limits still hasn't modified their advertising for the R15 to indicate the limits are there.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Porche doesn't have enough headroom.
Doesn't record channels you don't get.
100GB isn't enough.
Doesn't make coffee.
Doesn't repel tigers.
Doesn't allow Hebrew or Chinese.
Doesn't record when the hard drive is full.
Doesn't record when there's no electricity.

Sorry, man, but you are the king of strawman arguments.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Let me try one last approach:
If the R15 box said, in the small print:
"*Note, may not record all shows as scheduled or requested and may delete shows without warning" would that still be a problem? I think any reasonable person would say it was, and DTV would probably be paying out consumer lawsuits.

If it said:
"*Up to 50 series links and up to 50 scheduled items at a time." would reasonable people see that as a problem? I don't think so. Most of us just wouldn't buy the product, and people who were ok with those limits would.
It's a matter of managing expecations. I don't think it's honest or fair to declare a product was unfit to ship just because it lacks a certain capability that you want.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

walters said:


> Porche doesn't have enough headroom.
> Doesn't record channels you don't get.
> 100GB isn't enough.
> Doesn't make coffee.
> ...


Can you offer up some argument as to why those are strawman arguments rather than appropriate analogies? Repeatedly saying they are with no explaination is not very helpful in a public discussion.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

OK, because none of those are features of the R15's predecessors. Most aren't even features of any conceivable DVR. How about that?


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

ApK said:


> I don't think it's honest or fair to declare a product was unfit to ship just because it lacks a certain capability that you want.


I think not saying "limited to only 50 SL's" or similiar was deceptive. I would not have paid $99 for it months back if I had know the 50 SL limit when I have had 130 SP's on my DirecTivo at times.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Hey, I just noticed you already addressed the issue I just brought up in my last post about stating the limits on the box, so please ignore that. (or, everyone else...please read those posts in reverse order  )



Upstream said:


> ApK --
> To your argument that the limit is just a documentation oversight, I could argue that it is intentional deception on the part of DTV. There is nothing in any of the DTV advertising or documentation which even hints at a limit. And with the limit set at 100 (versus 1000, for example) I could argue that the R15 is not reasonably fit to perform as expected.


You think 1000 might be reasonable, others might not.
I never said it ws 'just an oversight.' I didn't characterize it as either good or evil at all. I just tried to describe it.
I wouldn't argue against you if you claimed it was deceptive. That's not the point I'm trying to make.
The limits are bad. If someone asks why they should or shouldn't buy the R15, I'd list the limits in 'shouldn't' column and they'll decide if that limit bothers them.
It's just as if (watch out walters, I'm sure you'll think this is a straw man argument) they wanted to buy a early model Fiat 500 but they wanted to drive 90 MPH on the autobahn. Do they buy the car, find that it can't do 90, then demand Fiat make it go faster? No.
But if they buy a Pinto and later find the gas tank is likely to explode, then it's reasonable that they demand a fix.

ApK


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

ApK said:


> You also can't do it if you're hard drive is full or if you have no electricty.
> 
> It's not defect, you're just unhappy with the design limits.
> 
> I don't know how else to make my point. Let's just say that if we were lawyers arguing this point in court I'd be very happy to be on my side. . . .


It's not just unhappy it's a bad flaw and deal breaker. I have only 7 SL's but my TDL is *full* if I try to add an SL for MASH or The Golden Girls".:nono:


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

walters said:


> OK, because none of those are features of the R15's predecessors. Most aren't even features of any conceivable DVR. How about that?


Geesh man, where do I begin:

1. At least one thing on that list IS available on the R15 predicessor.
You can upgrade a DTivo harddrive to bigger that 100GB, so you statement is untrue even if the reason was sound.

2. Analogies are comparisions to something else, so of course I'm not just going to keep trying to cite more and more DVR-specific examples of features. I've tried to illustrate the reasoning by using it with distictly DIFFRENT things from the case at hand, in ADDITION to other DVR related analogies, so I don't think the reason is sound. By your reasoning ANY analogy is a strawman argument and all SAT scores should be invalid.

3. I don't mean to turn the thread in a debate club, and we don't need to continue arguing about the arguments (although it's interesting, if you want to take it to a debating forum, let me know.)
If someone makes a point in a public discussion and I think there is something illogical or mistaken in the point, I'll post my arguments.
If you think I'm wrong and you're intent on arguing against me, then please offer more arguments and if find a flaw, I point it out. 
If you just can't stand being disgreed with and want the last word, go ahead and take it.

ApK


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

psweig said:


> It's not just unhappy it's a bad flaw and deal breaker. I have only 7 SL's but my TDL is *full* if I try to add an SL for MASH or The Golden Girls".:nono:


No argument about it being a deal breaker for you.
No argument about it being deceptive.

But constantly calling it a flaw carries implications that no one seems to have any justification for other than "it's a flaw because I don't like it."

ApK


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> I really do wonder what these limits are there for?


Here's a posibility. Perhaps the size of the lists/databases (Prioritizor, ToDo, History, etc.) affect performance. Maybe the limits were intentional to mitigate the performance hit.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

walters said:


> > Doesn't repel tigers
> 
> 
> OK, because none of those are features of the R15's predecessors. Most aren't even features of any conceivable DVR. How about that?


Hey, I haven't had any tigers around since I've had my Tivo.



(OK, yes, I used the tiger repelling example just so I could use that line, so thanks for the opening.)


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

ApK -- If I buy a Fiat in Germany (assuming US warranty laws, since I know nothing about German warranty laws), and it has a speedometer which goes up to 120 (or has no speedometer visible prior to purchasing the car), and they advertise that the car is "great to drive anywhere in Germany", then I would expect to be able to drive it on the Autobahn at 90 if that is a reasonable speed on the Autobahn. 

If the speedometer only went up to 75, and the speedometer is clearly visible before I buy the car, then I shouldn't have the expectation to drive it on the Autobahn at 90. (However, if 70 is considered an unsafe or atypical slow speed on the Autobahn, I would have a case against the manufacturer for deceptive advertising since they indicated that the car is "great to drive anywhere in Germany").

That is the case with the R15. DTV implies that you can schedule more than 100 shows. There is nothing in their advertising or documentation to indicate that is not the case. Reasonable use as described in their advertising easily tops the limit of 100 shows. So the unit is either defective, or DTV is being deceptive.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Upstream said:


> That is the case with the R15. DTV implies that you can schedule more than 100 shows. There is nothing in their advertising or documentation to indicate that is not the case. Reasonable use as described in their advertising easily tops the limit of 100 shows. So the unit is either defective, or DTV is being deceptive.


To be honest, I don't see it as either - unless they KNEW that 100 was too low of a limit when they released it. I would guess that they thought that the limit was reasonable. Say, for example, they bake in a limit that is impossible to hit (say 10,000 shows in the TDL). Is it deceptive if they didn't advertise that limit? I don't think so. It's a limit baked into their code due to the way the s/w was implemented - but it's a limit that no one could possibly hit. So by any definition they wouldn't be deceptive if they DIDN'T advertise that limit.

All that being said, I think whoever thought a limit of 100 shows was enough should probably have a good stern talking to. It's an unreasonably low limit. I don't think they were deceptive, however, because it strikes me that D* thought that that limit wouldn't be hit. Of course, now they DO know that it's too low of a limit... so, you could make the the argument that D* should be more upfront with their consumers about that limitation.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

jpl said:


> All that being said, I think whoever thought a limit of 100 shows was enough should probably have a good stern talking to. It's an unreasonably low limit


Which, by the way, is why I said I'd agree with walters if we were both on the design team and he said the unit wasn't fit to ship.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

qwerty said:


> Here's a posibility. Perhaps the size of the lists/databases (Prioritizor, ToDo, History, etc.) affect performance. Maybe the limits were intentional to mitigate the performance hit.


I think you're right. And considering that the prioritizer is already unusably slow even with these limits, I think it will be a long time, if ever, waiting for them to be removed.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

If they never fix it in the r15, but do in the next model, say maybe when they go MP4 or whatever, how good has DTV been historically in giving free upgrades to existing custmers?


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Well, I got the R15 for free, but you did specifically ask about _upgrades_


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

qwerty said:


> Here's a posibility. Perhaps the size of the lists/databases (Prioritizor, ToDo, History, etc.) affect performance. Maybe the limits were intentional to mitigate the performance hit.


I think the better question is if no other DVR has these limits why do they? I could maybe see them putting a limit on the SL's (150 or 200) but I can see why they put a limit on the todo list. As far as I know all other DVR's show everything that will record in there todo lists (UTV and Tivo are the only two I've seen). So it makes sense that the R15 would have problems off the bat if it had a limit in the Todo list. I always has to figure out a way to keep it under 100 and if it hit 100 it was to wait to update the list. At least with UTV and TIVO the list was there and all it had to do was update that list not figure out how much of it and when to update it. I assume that they put the limits there because they had to but why did they have to since that's the foundation of the DVR if that doesn't work and you have to put limits on it (where limits have never existed) how do you expect it to keep running?

I keep looking at this whole thing and looking at it like this. It's like a got a new top of the line PC but it can't even run pong or it's calculator only shows you 5 places. I love the R15 but it is going to have to do something with these limits.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

jpl -- although  at one time DTV may have thought that a limit of 100 was nearly impossible to hit, DTV now knows that it is not. Initial failure to mention the limit may not have been deceptive. Continued failure to mention the limit is deceptive (unless DTV considers the limit a defect which it can repaired).


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Upstream said:


> ApK -- If I buy a Fiat in Germany[. . .]


I just don't see how the expecations you're putting on marketing claims like '. . .all your favorites' and 'great to drive. . .' would ever pass a reasonable person test as being some sort of binding claim, but I guess we'll have to hold a moot court to see which way that would go.

Man, that's the second time in a week that an Internet forum argument I've been in has gotten to the point of me suggesting a moot court. Freaky.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Upstream said:


> jpl -- although at one time DTV may have thought that a limit of 100 was nearly impossible to hit, DTV now knows that it is not. Initial failure to mention the limit may not have been deceptive. Continued failure to mention the limit is deceptive (unless DTV considers the limit a defect which it can repaired).


I agree with that. That's why I indicated that, now that D* KNOWS they have this limitation, they should be more forthcoming with their customers. I guess my point was that if you put in a limit, not mentioning it isn't necessarily being deceptive, if the limit isn't something that can possibly be hit (sounds like we're in agreement on that). When the R15 was first developed I could see them coming to that conclusion, sort of (although a 100 show limit seems a tad low by any standard). Now that they know they have an issue with it, they should really be more forthcoming. I get the impression that they see it as an issue to be corrected, and probably will be in the near future.

This limit has me curious, however. I'm starting to think that it wasn't just a bad programming assumption: "I know, I'll just define a static array of 100 elements here, they'll NEVER hit that." I'm starting to think that that limit is intentional. Not that it was intentionally designed that way, but that it was put in as a stop-gap. This is nothing but pure speculation on my part, but what if they originally had no such limit? It's possible that having no limit caused the system to really get hosed (like the unit couldn't handle a large volume test). I could see that... I could see it failing a volume test, and someone saying "hmmm, it gets really hosed up if someone schedules TOO many shows... let's put in a limit of say 100 shows for now until we get this squared away." That way they get the unit out the door on schedule, and they have a way to prevent the systems from getting totally messed up.

The reason I think that is that this can't be that hard to fix. What is it some constant that's defined in the code? Is there a practical reason it can't be increased? I could envision a situation where you don't want to get rid of the limitation, but why is it that difficult to increase it to say 500 shows? Just doesn't strike me as that hard to do... and if it IS that hard to do, then the code must really be badly designed. Scalability should be one of the things that a developer puts into their code. If s/w isn't scalable, then it's not maintainable, and becomes obsolete very quickly.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Wow! I just went back a page and saw the entry by qwerty (I did that AFTER I put in my last posting). Looks like I'm not the only one to come to the conclusion I did


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

jpl said:


> have a way to prevent the systems from getting totally messed up.


I am not sure how long you have been using the R-15 but 9 months after being released, it still has (hidden not advertised) limits, still has the exact same but a little bit better SL problems, still has the exact same Caller ID issues even though in two releases they claim to have fixed it, still needs to be reset by some all the time and the last fix broke more than it fixed if you ask me with all the playback isses, black screens, 6 second rewind not reliable, etc...

Then were told its going to be two releases (ie.. approx. 6 months for the people on the east coast if the last rollout was a guage) before the problems this release broke are going to be fixed.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Bobman said:


> I am not sure how long you have been using the R-15 but 9 months after being released, it still has (hidden not advertised) limits, still has the exact same but a little bit better SL problems, still has the exact same Caller ID issues even though in two releases they claim to have fixed it, still needs to be reset by some all the time and the last fix broke more than it fixed if you ask me with all the playback isses, black screens, 6 second rewind not reliable, etc...
> 
> Then were told its going to be two releases (ie.. approx. 6 months for the people on the east coast if the last rollout was a guage) before the problems this release broke are going to be fixed.


I've only had mine for about 6 weeks. If volume is totally messing up the system, then it's not just a question of a couple bug fixes. The s/w would probably require a redesign, or at least a major overhaul to eliminate the limits (which is why I don't see the limits ever really going away, but I can see them being increased). I would guess, if this is the reason for the limit, that having too many shows caused a total system failure - making the system totally unusable. It most likely would had to have been a pretty catastrophic failure to cause them to put in limits like that.

All that being said, if I were dealing with the R15 development, and if I knew this were a serious issue (and I would treat it as such), the question to the developers I would have is: what can we do to raise that limit, short of an overhaul/ total redesign? Even raising it to 200 would help... I have to think that they're starting to look at doing just that. I could be wrong, and I could be totally off with the limits to begin with... but 16 years as a s/w developer tells me that those limits were put in intentionally. If it were being looked at, it was probably overtaken by other higher priority bugs.

In other words, they put in the limit during development to stop a system failure, with the intention of fixing that (or at least mitigating it) within the next 6 months. Then the R15 is released. All of a sudden, they get inundated with problems with the R15 - things that no one envisioned. All of a sudden they're trying to get THOSE problems fixed, so the expansion of the limits got back-burnered.

That's a very real-world scenario that happens, sadly, too often in s/w development.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

The way I was kind of seeing it in my head was...

It gets unstable if it's asked to do too much, but we've severed our ties with TIVO and we have to get this to market before Christmas. Slap some limits on it to keep it stable and get it to market. We can continue to work it and push an update later.

That's 100% pure speculation, though.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

qwerty said:


> The way I was kind of seeing it in my head was...
> 
> It gets unstable if it's asked to do too much, but we've severed our ties with TIVO and we have to get this to market before Christmas. Slap some limits on it to keep it stable and get it to market. We can continue to work it and push an update later.
> 
> That's 100% pure speculation, though.


Cripe, it gets way unstable well before you hit the 50 SL limit.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

qwerty said:


> The way I was kind of seeing it in my head was...
> 
> It gets unstable if it's asked to do too much, but we've severed our ties with TIVO and we have to get this to market before Christmas. Slap some limits on it to keep it stable and get it to market. We can continue to work it and push an update later.
> 
> That's 100% pure speculation, though.


I think you're absolutely right on this. I'm sure they had a deadline to keep, and they probably discovered the problem too late. Like I said, several years of experience in s/w development is telling me that that's what's going on here. If I were leading the R15 development effort and that was brought before me, that's pretty much how I would have handled it - put a limit on it so we can get it out the door, and we'll fix it in a future release. Then I imagine they got sidetracked with bugs that started coming in.


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