# Fios vs Dish picture quality.



## Jack White (Sep 17, 2002)

My friend got Fios and I was over at his house and I was surprised that the picture quality was better than not only Dish, but also Cable.
Now Keep in mind that his tvs weren't even calibrated, and he used just RF cables to hook up his SD boxes instead of component or S-video.
Does anyone have any idea what kind of bitrate they're running at for the SD channels? I know that Dish does a very poor 2.5 Mbps or so for SD.
I'm scared to upgrade to a 50" 1080P Pioneer Plasma because of how bad Dish will look on it. I actually prefer to watch on the smallest tv in the house a 20" Trinitron calibrated via AVIA including Service Menu Adjustments because of the overcompression on Dish. If My Mom didn't totally hate Verison, our family probably would be better off switching to their triple play plan.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Jack White said:


> My friend got Fios and I was over at his house and I was surprised that the picture quality was better than not only Dish, but also Cable.
> Now Keep in mind that his tvs weren't even calibrated, and he used just RF cables to hook up his SD boxes instead of component or S-video.
> Does anyone have any idea what kind of bitrate they're running at for the SD channels? I know that Dish does a very poor 2.5 Mbps or so for SD.
> I'm scared to upgrade to a 50" 1080P Pioneer Plasma because of how bad Dish will look on it. I actually prefer to watch on the smallest tv in the house a 20" Trinitron calibrated via AVIA including Service Menu Adjustments because of the overcompression on Dish. If My Mom didn't totally hate Verison, our family probably would be better off switching to their triple play plan.


I do not know the bit rate, but I have had Verizon Fios TV since March. I currently
still have Dish and cable, and the picture quality with Fios is very noticeably
much better than Dish and cable. Both SD and HD is much better.


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## Jack White (Sep 17, 2002)

Do they have Dual Tuner Standard DEF DVRs with S-video and Dolby Digital?
I'm glad that somebody is actually delivering laserdisc quality/digital qualtiy picture that Dish and Directv have been promissing for so long.



Hound said:


> I do not know the bit rate, but I have had Verizon Fios TV since March. I currently
> still have Dish and cable, and the picture quality with Fios is very noticeably
> much better than Dish and cable. Both SD and HD is much better.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Jack White said:


> Do they have Dual Tuner Standard DEF DVRs with S-video and Dolby Digital?
> I'm glad that somebody is actually delivering laserdisc quality/digital qualtiy picture that Dish and Directv have been promissing for so long.


Yes, they do. They only offer one DVR which is both HD and SD capable. It is dual tuner, S Video and Dolby Digital. I have two of the DVRs and it is very good. After using the DVR for one night, I forgot about my Dish 622.


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## RI_Pilot (May 2, 2005)

I just had FiosTV installed today and canceled Dish. The FiosTV is great, they have more bandwidth and do not need to compress as much. The DVR (Motorola QIP 6416) is dual tuner HD/SD and I have it connected via component to an old Mitsubishi WS-55805. I also got a non DVR SD STB connected to a 25" Panasonic via S-video.
Another nice thing- no extra charge for HD.
Since Verizon has turned on TV in this area Cox is running out of places to put all the returned cable STBs as people switch. Verizon has brought in an army of installers and can do 200-300 installs a day.
Fios Internet is also great, I have had this for a year and it is very reliable and consistently fast.
The future of Fios is very good, at a recent comms trade show Verizon said they plan to enhance their PON (passive optical network) network to use WDM (wavelength division multiplexing) that would allow gigabit speeds to each home.
Howard


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## idlehands (Jul 14, 2006)

RI_Pilot said:


> I just had FiosTV installed today and canceled Dish. The FiosTV is great, they have more bandwidth and do not need to compress as much. The DVR (Motorola QIP 6416) is dual tuner HD/SD and I have it connected via component to an old Mitsubishi WS-55805. I also got a non DVR SD STB connected to a 25" Panasonic via S-video.
> Another nice thing- no extra charge for HD.
> Since Verizon has turned on TV in this area Cox is running out of places to put all the returned cable STBs as people switch. Verizon has brought in an army of installers and can do 200-300 installs a day.
> Fios Internet is also great, I have had this for a year and it is very reliable and consistently fast.
> ...


Fios must only be good because there's nobody on it. They've been out how many years and they still don't have anything available for the Los Angeles market? Makes no sense to not have it in one of the most major cities.

As Fios becomes available nationwide, it'll soon become just like Dishnet and everybody else with the horrible PQ.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

idlehands said:


> Fios must only be good because there's nobody on it. They've been out how many years and they still don't have anything available for the Los Angeles market? Makes no sense to not have it in one of the most major cities.
> 
> As Fios becomes available nationwide, it'll soon become just like Dishnet and everybody else with the horrible PQ.


Absolute BS

They have virtually unlimited bandwidth available - and just crossed over 1 Million TV Subs now - around a 10x increase from a year ago.

The reason the SD looks better is because they aren't giving you a reduced SD-LITE picture - but full resolution - unlike E* or D*.

And it is available in a number of areas surrounding LA Proper - from north around Thousand Oaks down through Malibu and Santa Monica down through Long Beach and into Orange County etc. It is also available to the East.

Verizon's FiOS TV is now available in all or parts of the following communities:

Apple Valley, Banning, Beaumont, Camarillo, Chino, Chino Hills, Fountain Valley, Garden Grove, Hermosa Beach, Huntington Beach, Lake Elsinore, Lakewood, Long Beach, Los Alamitos, Malibu, Manhattan Beach, Montclair, Murrieta, Ontario, Perris, Pomona, Redlands, Redondo Beach, Santa Monica, Stanton, Temecula, Thousand Oaks, Torrance, Westminster, Unincorporated areas of:Los Angeles County, Orange County, Riverside County, San Bernardino County, Ventura County


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## jpeckinp (Nov 6, 2006)

idlehands said:


> Fios must only be good because there's nobody on it. They've been out how many years and they still don't have anything available for the Los Angeles market? Makes no sense to not have it in one of the most major cities.
> 
> As Fios becomes available nationwide, it'll soon become just like Dishnet and everybody else with the horrible PQ.


Fios is nothing like cable you don't have to worry about the node being overloaded like cable and when it comes to the Sat providers like HDTVFanatic said they have tons of bandwidth to work with and with new tech coming every day they will probably alway have tons of bandwidth.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

There was a story in the paper here a few days ago about the installation proceedures used by Verizon when installing FIOS. It claimed that when the fiber is installed they remove the existing copper from the pole to the house, thereby making it necessary to reinstall if you should decide to go back to "the phone company" or "the cable company". Have any of you guys found this to be the case?


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## Tom in TX (Jan 22, 2004)

Richard King said:


> There was a story in the paper here a few days ago about the installation proceedures used by Verizon when installing FIOS. It claimed that when the fiber is installed they remove the existing copper from the pole to the house, thereby making it necessary to reinstall if you should decide to go back to "the phone company" or "the cable company". Have any of you guys found this to be the case?


Yes, and it pissed me off! I signed up for Verizon FiOS tv ONLY, and they cut my copper line. I lost my DSL connection, and made them reinstall the copper. I then dropped the FiOS tv service, because the DVR was second rate compared to the 622 (no 30 sec. skip, slow to change channels). Even after they restored the copper, I could not get my DSL back! They NEVER told us anything about cutting our copper. There was an article in the paper this week about how alot of people are upset to find out that they do this.
Tom in TX


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## RI_Pilot (May 2, 2005)

Richard King said:


> There was a story in the paper here a few days ago about the installation proceedures used by Verizon when installing FIOS. It claimed that when the fiber is installed they remove the existing copper from the pole to the house, thereby making it necessary to reinstall if you should decide to go back to "the phone company" or "the cable company". Have any of you guys found this to be the case?


Yes, the Fios tech removed the copper drop when I had Fios Internet installed over a year ago. The ONT provides up to 4 analog phone lines. I am actually glad the copper was removed, it is one less path for a lightning surge to enter the house. I cut the Cox coax cable years ago after I first got Dish for the same reason.

Howard


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Richard King said:


> There was a story in the paper here a few days ago about the installation proceedures used by Verizon when installing FIOS. It claimed that when the fiber is installed they remove the existing copper from the pole to the house, thereby making it necessary to reinstall if you should decide to go back to "the phone company" or "the cable company". Have any of you guys found this to be the case?


They disconnected my copper drop, but it is not removed. I would never go back to
copper any way. But it can be reconnected.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

idlehands said:


> Fios must only be good because there's nobody on it. They've been out how many years and they still don't have anything available for the Los Angeles market? Makes no sense to not have it in one of the most major cities.
> 
> As Fios becomes available nationwide, it'll soon become just like Dishnet and everybody else with the horrible PQ.


Baloney. The Fios TV service just started in late 05. In NJ, Fios TV started in
January 07. They now have 500,000 TV subs and on a percentage basis is
the fastest growing TV service in the United States. Faster than E*. Growing at a rate in excess of 50 percent per quarter.

Fios Internet now has over 1,000,000 subs. PC Magazine has rated it as the
best Internet service in the US. I have 20/5 Internet and once you experience
20/5 Internet, you will never go back to a cable modem. The difference is more dramatic than going form dial up to cable modem. The Internet is literally always there. The router is unbelievable. I have five kids with laptops and the Internet has not gone down once since I had it installed in January. The router does not overload and the signal is very strong.

Bandwidth is unlimited with Fios and they are test ing 100 Gigabit Internet
and have 50 Gigabit available now.

I could not care about the old copper drop.


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## idlehands (Jul 14, 2006)

Is their PQ comparable to C-band? I really need a new tv provider. I swear Dishnet is soooo horribly ugly. Even on a 20", I can see motion artifacts, pixelation or macroblocking. It's disgusting how they allow this junk. There should be laws. Directv is only SLIGHTLY better. Can't afford C-band. Fios is my only hope but they're not even available in Los Angeles like you say they are.


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## kikkenit2 (Oct 26, 2006)

idlehands said:


> Is their PQ comparable to C-band? I really need a new tv provider. I swear Dishnet is soooo horribly ugly. Even on a 20", I can see motion artifacts, pixelation or macroblocking. It's disgusting how they allow this junk. There should be laws. Directv is only SLIGHTLY better. Can't afford C-band. Fios is my only hope but they're not even available in Los Angeles like you say they are.


LA is a big town and is mostly serviced by AT&T. They are behind Verizon in rolling out fiber optic. I live in the southwest part of the county and Verizon just activated the FIOS here. I only took the internet for now as I prefer D* for content and better DVR. FIOS is cheaper and better HD resolution though. I can't afford both providers.:sure:


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

idlehands said:


> Is their PQ comparable to C-band? I really need a new tv provider. I swear Dishnet is soooo horribly ugly. Even on a 20", I can see motion artifacts, pixelation or macroblocking. It's disgusting how they allow this junk. There should be laws. Directv is only SLIGHTLY better. Can't afford C-band. Fios is my only hope but they're not even available in Los Angeles like you say they are.


yes, its the closest thing to C Band you will get.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> I lost my DSL connection


Why would you want to have at best 3Mb/768Kb DSL when you can have 15Mb/2Mb FTTP? I have 15Mb/1Mb broadband from Time Warner and couldn't imagine using anything slower.


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## Tom in TX (Jan 22, 2004)

Steve Mehs said:


> Why would you want to have at best 3Mb/768Kb DSL when you can have 15Mb/2Mb FTTP? I have 15Mb/1Mb broadband from Time Warner and couldn't imagine using anything slower.


I guess it's because I didn't need anything faster than I was getting with DSL, and it was cheaper. I couldn't imagine willigly paying extra for something I have no use for!

Tom in TX


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## fsquid (Aug 30, 2006)

Tom in TX said:


> I guess it's because I didn't need anything faster than I was getting with DSL, and it was cheaper. I couldn't imagine willigly paying extra for something I have no use for!
> 
> Tom in TX


Yikes, Logic has been used!


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Richard King said:


> ... It claimed that when the fiber is installed they remove the existing copper from the pole to the house, thereby making it necessary to reinstall if you should decide to go back to "the phone company" or "the cable company". Have any of you guys found this to be the case?


The services are underground in my neighborhood. When Fios was installed in my home they disconnected the underground copper from the interface tap in my basement and then connected the Fios copper interface wires to that block. Precisely what they had previously told me and the only way I can envision them doing it.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

www.skyreport.com

Study: FiOS Hurting DBS More than Cable

As Verizon continues its FiOS TV expansion across the country, other pay-TV providers are finding it more difficult to downplay the company's growing success. While it still may be years away before FiOS has comparable subscriber numbers to incumbent cable and satellite operators, a new study suggests the fiber-supported video service may be drawing more from DIRECTV and DISH Network than leading cable companies.

According to research conducted by OneTrak, Verizon's FiOS TV product seemed to be taking more subscribers away from satellite operators than from rival cable companies - at least from the 34 Massachusetts communities where the telco launched service last year. The firm said in those municipalities, Verizon enlisted about 12,000 subscribers during a roughly 90-day period.

OneTrak said during that time, incumbent cable operator Comcast lost 5,216 customers - a 2.6 percent decline among its client base of 204,106. The firm also said RCN, providing cable services to nine of the 34 towns, saw a seven percent dip in subscribers - or 1,813 customers.

With OneTrak assuming about 3 percent of FiOS TV subscribers didn't have any pay-TV service prior to signing up, the firm's study suggests that about 4,600 new Verizon customers came from satellite. The total represents about 38 percent of the region's multichannel customers defecting from either DIRECTV or DISH.

According to Verizon, more than 1.3 million households nationwide now subscribe to its television service, with FiOS TV averaging 2,600 sales every business day. In 15 months, the wireless company has doubled the number of subscribers bundling their DIRECTV satellite TV service with Verizon services, with 125,000 homes added in the second quarter alone, the company said.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

A couple of points. First, DSL in many areas is faster than 3mb/768kb. 
Second, yes Fios is growing. and i have heard the PQ is great, although havent seen it. I doubt it is leaps and bounds greater, although it very well could be. The thing is, they may very well be growing at an alarming rate NOW. Look back at trends for cable, and directv/dish. This happens. There is no possible way to keep up a growth rate of "50%" per quarter. The infrastructure isnt there, and most people are happy with what they have.
Dont mean to sound like a Fios basher, im sure its a great service, and if it were ever available here i might take a look.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> A couple of points. First, DSL in many areas is faster than 3mb/768kb.


Not in areas where Verizon is the ILEC. Verizon DSL maxes out at 3Mb.

http://www22.verizon.com/content/consumerdsl/plans/all+plans/all+plans.htm


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Steve Mehs said:


> Not in areas where Verizon is the ILEC. Verizon DSL maxes out at 3Mb.
> 
> http://www22.verizon.com/content/consumerdsl/plans/all+plans/all+plans.htm


hmmm, correct you are. wonder why they dont offer a mid level plan?


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

msmith198025 said:


> hmmm, correct you are. wonder why they dont offer a mid level plan?


At various times they have offered several different speeds and prices. And in my area max out at 1.5. However they just strung up FIOS the other day in my neighborhood(not yet offered).


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

tnsprin said:


> At various times they have offered several different speeds and prices. And in my area max out at 1.5. However they just strung up FIOS the other day in my neighborhood(not yet offered).


I would imagine that Fios being offered would compel them to ramp the speed up somewhat.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

msmith198025 said:


> I would imagine that Fios being offered would compel them to ramp the speed up somewhat.


If I were them I might ramp it down so that I could offer more FIOS. Verizon owns the DSL infrastructure here.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

tnsprin said:


> If I were them I might ramp it down so that I could offer more FIOS. Verizon owns the DSL infrastructure here.


ohhh, i was talking about competing companies. But yeah if verizon owns most of it i see what ya mean


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

Tom in TX said:


> Yes, and it pissed me off! I signed up for Verizon FiOS tv ONLY, and they cut my copper line. I lost my DSL connection, and made them reinstall the copper. I then dropped the FiOS tv service, because the DVR was second rate compared to the 622 (no 30 sec. skip, slow to change channels). Even after they restored the copper, I could not get my DSL back! They NEVER told us anything about cutting our copper. There was an article in the paper this week about how alot of people are upset to find out that they do this.
> Tom in TX


Motorola boxes are dealbreakers for me!


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## bthessel (Oct 26, 2004)

At least most of you have options. I live in Cincinnati and we are stuck, Cincinnati Bell is the phone company and Time Warner is the cable, neither has any need to push things as they are on equal footing with 5 mb/s DSL and 7? from Roadrunner. A few years ago Bell talked of doing tv over IP but it was all talk, it has taken them a few years to get from 3 - 5 mb/s, it would take them 20 years to get the tech in place to carry the bandwidth for video. Unless Verizon or At&T buy up Bell we are stuck. I can't see why anyone sticks with TW, their PQ very well could be the worst out there. What's funny is that my parents live in a rural area gets tv and internet through a line of site transmission from a tower (microwave?) The get good PQ and 10 mb/s. The only complaint is they don't get a DVR and the channel changes are kinda slow.


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## Cokeswigga (Jan 25, 2005)

Paul Secic said:


> Motorola boxes are dealbreakers for me!


Me... Things I HAVE to have:

1.) 30 Second Skip Ahead & Skip Back.
2.) UHF Remotes
3.) Fast Boxes
4.) 2 provider Tuners and one (or more) OTA tuner
5.) Modulator ouput

I am tempted to "TRY" FIOS for a while, just to see if the Full-Res HD is worth it but I don't want to upset the household by changing providers either and loosing some very important features


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

tnsprin said:


> If I were them I might ramp it down so that I could offer more FIOS. Verizon owns the DSL infrastructure here.


FIOS announced this morning they were working on offering 100Mbps Internet Speeds.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> FIOS announced this morning they were working on offering 100Mbps Internet Speeds.


oh yeah well i can get 6Mbp.........ok, i cant say anything to that. If its true and available to the general public, i may just have to move and try this Fios out


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> oh yeah well i can get 6Mbp.........ok, i cant say anything to that. If its true and available to the general public, i may just have to move and try this Fios out


Said it before, I'll say it again.

Bottom line:

TV Sub additions in the Second Quarter:

FIOS 125,000 additions
Directv 128,000 additions
Dish 170,000 additions

Directv and Dish have a national footprint covering over 300 Million people. FIOS footprint covers 1% of that - 3 Million

You do the math and if you are bad at math I'll even pitch in.

Fios would have added at the same rate per area served as Dish and Directv if they had added 1,250 - 1,700 new subs to FIOS TV in the Quarter. Instead they added 125,000.

Clearly a large number of people "get it" and the DVR isn't as big of an issue as better quality and lower price.


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## Jack White (Sep 17, 2002)

This is great news because the Overcompressors are finally paying for what they've been doing to their customers. Dish and Directv are now going to learn that you can fool all of the people some of the time, and you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
All their 100% Digital Quality BS won't work when their customers eyes tell them that FIOS TV actually delivers reasonable picture quality unlike all the other competitors except for C-Band/4DTV and OTA.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> www.skyreport.com
> 
> Study: FiOS Hurting DBS More than Cable
> 
> ...


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Said it before, I'll say it again.
> 
> Bottom line:
> 
> ...


And as I stated before, I have no doubt that they are growing at an alarming rate right now. You have proved it, numbers have been posted everywhere. Thats a fact.

Another fact is that there is NO WAY to keep up that growth rate long term. The will very soon outgrow the availability of the infrastructure that is in place. Sure more can be added, but I doubt it will be before people get used to it or something else comes along. And lets not forget there are only so many places that Verizon can expand to with out getting into another companies territory and that version of "Fios" .


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

D*s growth number in the first years.
1994 subs.- 320,000
1995 subs.- 1,200,000
1996 subs.- 2,300,000
1997 subs.- 3,301,300
1998 subs.- 4,458,000
1999 subs.- 6,669,000

ok, do the math on those growth numbers. per quarter is right up there and in most cases higher at the begining than fios.

And yes, technically it was "available" nation wide, as in if you had a dish and a clear view you could get it. But no one knew about it, no installers in every town, ect. so id say the people who could actually get it would be comperable if not slightly higher than the availability of Fios right now.
My point? That most of companies be it cable, dish, directv, fios, ect experience fast levels of growth to begin with.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> ...
> Clearly a large number of people "get it" and the DVR isn't as big of an issue as better quality and lower price. ...


You dismiss the concerns re Fios and then conclude that the others don't "get it?" 

Fios(TV) is and has been available to me - I already have Fios Telephone and Internet - and the Fios DVR is in fact a deal-breaker for my wife and I.

Sorry if *you* don't "get it." lol


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Said it before, I'll say it again.
> 
> Bottom line:
> 
> ...


Fios had 167,000 additions. http://newscenter.verizon.com/press-releases/verizon/2007/verizon-posts-strong-2q-2007.html


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## comizzou573 (Aug 6, 2007)

hi how are you doing, sorry for ruining your discussion here but i am new how i do post a brand new thread, my account is registration and everything I just dont see the button on any page, thanks everyone for the understanding and helping me out.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Hound said:


> Fios had 167,000 additions. http://newscenter.verizon.com/press-releases/verizon/2007/verizon-posts-strong-2q-2007.html


Thanks!

That's what I get for looking at the numbers stated on mbc-the bridge newsletter -I guess that's what you get when you think they could transfer numbers from a press release to their newsletter!

Of course, they think BS Swammi is a guru, so that should have been my first tip off.

So, to recap....(and thanks to Hound for the source press release)

Second Quarter Additions:

FIOS 167,000 additions
Directv 128,000 additions
Dish 170,000 additions

FIOS is available to 1% of the nation population - Directv and Dish to 100%...thus Directv and Dish would have had to have 12,800,000 and 17,000,000 to keep up with that pace.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> D*s growth number in the first years.
> 1994 subs.- 320,000
> 1995 subs.- 1,200,000
> 1996 subs.- 2,300,000
> ...


I can your MBA skills needs a refresher course.

You would have to multipply your numbers by 100 to get the comparable footprint.

Look at it another way, percent new subs per population passed:

1994 subs.- 320,000 /300,000,000 = .11%
1995 subs.- 1,200,000 /300,000,000 = .40%
1996 subs.- 2,300,000 /300,000,000 = .77%
1997 subs.- 3,301,300 / 300,000,000 = 1.1%
1998 subs.- 4,458,000 / 300,000,000 = 1.49%
1999 subs.- 6,669,000 / 300,000,000 = 2.22%

I will freely admit I am using a rough 300,000,000 as I have no desire to look up the exact US Population for every year.

To put that in perspective:

2nd Quarter Additions:

Directv 2nd Quarter Additions: 128,000 / 300,000,000 = .04%
Dish 2nd Quarter Additions : 170,000 / 300,000,000 = .06%
FIOS 2nd Quarter Additions: 167,000 / 3,000,000 = 5.5%

or if you prefer, x4 to compare to your annual numbers above = 22% in year 2 compared to Directv's 2nd year rate of .4%.

Not even close.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

SaltiDawg said:


> You dismiss the concerns re Fios and then conclude that the others "get it?"
> 
> Fios(TV) is and has been available to me - I already have Fios Telephone and Internet - and the Fios DVR is in fact a deal-breaker for my wife and I.
> 
> Sorry if *you* don't "get it." lol


No, I am sorry you don't get it.

To use the arguement that others have that the FIOS DVR misses some shows occasionally (as does the others, but I digress, normally due to guide issues), that means that a FIOS customer watches better quality TV 99% of the time and a D* or E* customer watches worse quality TV on their set 100% of the time.

But being America, your choice to watch an inferior picture is your right!

Aren't you glad you spent so much on a HDTV to watch something less than its capable of producing!


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> And lets not forget there are only so many places that Verizon can expand to with out getting into another companies territory and that version of "Fios" .


Perhaps you would be so kind to list the other companies version of FIOS fiber optic to home?


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## heisman (Feb 11, 2007)

Cokeswigga said:


> Me... Things I HAVE to have:
> 
> 1.) 30 Second Skip Ahead & Skip Back.
> 2.) UHF Remotes
> ...


If you HAVE to have those things, then you won't be happy with FIOS' Moto dvr. No 30 sec. fwd, no OTA, slowest channel changing known to man, no IR remote.


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## yardbird (May 7, 2007)

Interesting factoid #1040675

Background: I used to do contract work for the US Postal Service. Primarily I was a network installation inspector and did work on the infrastructure installation of their (then) new Point-of-Sale system and did some network and hardware troubleshooting in the field.

I learned that there was a point in time when the USPS proposed running fiber to "every delivery address" in the US. Not only was it proposed but they had the funds to implement it. They were told "no" by the government who cited "conflict of interest". 

Looking back, this would have changed a LOT in terms of what and how services are delivered.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Perhaps you would be so kind to list the other companies version of FIOS fiber optic to home?


which is why i said version of "fios" there is no exact competitor at this point only similiar knock offs, but doesnt mean that isnt competition or that just because it isnt the EXACT same thing that Verizon will or could ever offer FIOS there.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I can your MBA skills needs a refresher course.
> 
> You would have to multipply your numbers by 100 to get the comparable footprint.
> 
> ...


I understand your added subs versus footprint point, but its a little misleading. We couldnt get Direct in our area for many years for whatever reason even though technically it was available. So it wasnt until a few years later that we had the option to get DBS service and went with Dish. So just because they say have a clear view of the southern sky, doesnt or didnt anyway mean you could actually get it.
And yes 300,000,000 is a high number for 94, not a whole lot more but approx 25,000,000 or so.


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## bthessel (Oct 26, 2004)

The footprint/growth issue is a non-starter, Verizon will never have the footprint that DBS can since they will never be in areas that have another provider (AT&T, Cincinnati Bell, umm is that all that is left?) or that costs too much to run fiber to such as smaller towns or rural areas. But just because a spot of dirt could get DBS doesn't mean it is truly possible, apartments, trees, wives who don't want it sticking off the house  , etc all mean that a large portion of the population in an area can't have a dish. 

The picture quality point is very minor to the vast majority of people. I can't think of the last time I heard anyone mention it in a discussion except on here. When coworkers and friends talk about TV they talk about price and channels. 

I welcome the competition though, if DBS pushes Verizon to get a better DVR and Verizon pushes DBS to get better PQ then we are all winners.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

bthessel said:


> The footprint/growth issue is a non-starter, Verizon will never have the footprint that DBS can since they will never be in areas that have another provider (AT&T, Cincinnati Bell, umm is that all that is left?) or that costs too much to run fiber to such as smaller towns or rural areas. But just because a spot of dirt could get DBS doesn't mean it is truly possible, apartments, trees, wives who don't want it sticking off the house  , etc all mean that a large portion of the population in an area can't have a dish.
> 
> The picture quality point is very minor to the vast majority of people. I can't think of the last time I heard anyone mention it in a discussion except on here. When coworkers and friends talk about TV they talk about price and channels.
> 
> I welcome the competition though, if DBS pushes Verizon to get a better DVR and Verizon pushes DBS to get better PQ then we are all winners.


Your first part sums up what i meant.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> Your first part sums up what i meant.


Sure, the footprint/growth issue is a non-starter....lol...

The only people that care about it are stockholders, credit institutions and management.

They are smart enough to know what it means, along with the research report of where the subs are coming from - and that has all types of business consequences for Dish and Directv.

And eventually as money gets tighter, who do you think pays the price - and we are not just talking much higher bills.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

bthessel said:


> The footprint/growth issue is a non-starter, Verizon will never have the footprint that DBS can since they will never be in areas that have another provider (AT&T, Cincinnati Bell, umm is that all that is left?) or that costs too much to run fiber to such as smaller towns or rural areas. But just because a spot of dirt could get DBS doesn't mean it is truly possible, apartments, trees, wives who don't want it sticking off the house  , etc all mean that a large portion of the population in an area can't have a dish.


Spin it anyway you want it, but for Directv to have the same growth rate in the second year (1995) that Verizon FIOS TV is seeing, D*'s 1,200,000 sub additions would have been out of population of only 5,500,000.

Unless you are REALLY bad at numbers, you will know that the USA has been above that level for, well, more than a few years

And if you think that Directv was only available to 5.5 Million people in the USA in 1995 (maybe you think over 200 Million lived in Apartments?) then you are sadly misinformed.



bthessel said:


> The picture quality point is very minor to the vast majority of people. I can't think of the last time I heard anyone mention it in a discussion except on here. When coworkers and friends talk about TV they talk about price and channels.


And with prices, FIOS wins. Channels - we'll see how it all plays out.

Perhaps you think all people talk about is price and channels - every day I hear people questioning the way their TV looks.

Teenagers just want a car or a beer in the beginning - but quickly one learns specifics after the first plunge.

One must remember that HDTV just moved out of what is classified the early adopter stage (when an electronic device is adopted by 20% of the Households in America) about 6 months ago.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

I dont see how it is a spin. For whatever reason there are alot of people today who cant have a dish regardless of whether it is technically available. I dont have exact numbers, but i will try to find some that shows how many it was available to when it first came out.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

msmith198025 said:


> ...
> My point? That most of companies be it cable, dish, directv, fios, ect experience fast levels of growth to begin with.


Did D* and later E* *initially* have local channels available? Without locals back in the day, many potential customers would not have been interested. It would seem that it is difficult to make a meaningful comparison between Fios and either D* or E* because in the case of Fios it can offer a content that competes with Cable. Initially, D* and E* did not do so.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

SaltiDawg said:


> Did D* and later E* *initially* have local channels available? Without locals back in the day, many potential customers would not have been interested. It would seem that it is difficult to make a meaningful comparison between Fios and either D* or E* because in the case of Fios it can offer a content that competes with Cable. Initially, D* and E* did not do so.


Honestly, not sure if they did or not. Probably in some of the major markets they were. Didnt really seem to hinder them adding alot of subs though.


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## bthessel (Oct 26, 2004)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Spin it anyway you want it, but for Directv to have the same growth rate in the second year (1995) that Verizon FIOS TV is seeing, D*'s 1,200,000 sub additions would have been out of population of only 5,500,000.
> 
> Unless you are REALLY bad at numbers, you will know that the USA has been above that level for, well, more than a few years
> 
> ...


If so many care about PQ why is Time Warner the largest source of TV in my area? Shouldn't it be OTA and DBS? TW is more expensive with less channels. I'm having a hard time understanding what you are arguing for.. should the DBS providers just close up shop since according to you their stock will go to the gutter and they don't stand a chance against the almighty FIOS?

I would imagine if you ask FIOS customers why they switched it was for faster internet by a huge percentage and the price being second, the PQ would be pretty far down the list. I know that is what will cause me to switch providers (I will never see it in Cincinnati)

What happens to FIOS's growth numbers when the run out of area? They can't take on new subs in AT&T's area and the cost to run FTH in rural/smaller towns will mean those areas will never see it either.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

bthessel said:


> If so many care about PQ why is Time Warner the largest source of TV in my area? Shouldn't it be OTA and DBS?


Nope. Most of Time Warner has not yet dropped to HD-LITE. They have shaved bitrates, but not like what D* has done.

And, with all due respect, its quite impossible to know OTA viewership - because when someone installs cable or satellite, everyone assumes they watch via that source.

However, I would not be so naive to think that many people know that OTA looks better than what they see via cable and dbs - it's the same as if the tree falls in the forest.....does it really make a sound.....



bthessel said:


> I would imagine if you ask FIOS customers why they switched it was for faster internet by a huge percentage and the price being second, the PQ would be pretty far down the list.


You must not read many threads. I see a comment daily about former dbs customers raving about the PQ daily.



bthessel said:


> What happens to FIOS's growth numbers when the run out of area? They can't take on new subs in AT&T's area and the cost to run FTH in rural/smaller towns will mean those areas will never see it either.


No one thinks that Verizon has nationwide plans and they are currently only focusing on states that offer state franchises so they do not have to go the local route (27 different local agreements would be needed in my 1 county alone).

Of course from a population standpoint, those 12 states they are building in now represent some of the most populated states around - and it appears they are also red-lining - only to upper class neighborhoods that can spend more money - so you are right - some will have - others will not.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> Nope. Most of Time Warner has not yet dropped to HD-LITE. They have shaved bitrates, but not like what D* has done.


Yep, no HD lite here, and there is no evidence of bit starving, although I'm sure it's done, but not by very much. Not sure of the math, but each QAM freq has no more than two HD channels on it, and a few only have one. HD picture quality here on TW is excellent. Anyone who cares about quality in my area should get TW, and many have switched back to cable. It helps being in Time Warner #1 test market.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Steve Mehs said:


> Yep, no HD lite here, and there is no evidence of bit starving, although I'm sure it's done, but not by very much. Not sure of the math, but each QAM freq has no more than two HD channels on it, and a few only have one. HD picture quality here on TW is excellent. Anyone who cares about quality in my area should get TW, and many have switched back to cable. It helps being in Time Warner #1 test market.


38.81 per 256 QAM that can be divided up however they decide.

Bandwidth from different QAMs cannot be combined.


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## bthessel (Oct 26, 2004)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Nope. Most of Time Warner has not yet dropped to HD-LITE. They have shaved bitrates, but not like what D* has done.


It must be the Cincinnati area then since TW around here is painful to watch, my father in law just switched to D* and he is amazed at the picture quality.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> You must not read many threads. I see a comment daily about former dbs customers raving about the PQ daily.


As would be expected on a Television forum. We are not normal when it comes to this stuff. (my wife tells me so all the time).


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

"You must not read many threads. I see a comment daily about former dbs customers raving about the PQ daily."HDTVFanAtic

No doubt that you do, but like the above poster said, its probably on a cable forum. 
There are daily postings on many sat forums where posters rave about sat PQ also. 
So that really means nothing


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> "You must not read many threads. I see a comment daily about former dbs customers raving about the PQ daily."HDTVFanAtic
> 
> No doubt that you do, but like the above poster said, its probably on a cable forum.
> There are daily postings on many sat forums where posters rave about sat PQ also.
> So that really means nothing


Nope - its on this forum.

I have yet to see former FIOS customers rave about D* or E*'s picture, but its become very obvious you wouldnt know the difference in a good picture or a bad picture.


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## Ken_F (Jan 13, 2003)

A few sample HD channel bitrates from FiOS in VA:

FOOD - 15.0 Mbps
NGCHD - 17.5 Mbps
MTVHD - 19.0 Mbps
HDNET - 18.2 Mbps
TNTHD - 18.2 Mbps


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Nope - its on this forum.
> 
> I have yet to see former FIOS customers rave about D* or E*'s picture, but its become very obvious you wouldnt know the difference in a good picture or a bad picture.


Obvious how? Because Directv or dish looks good to me on my tv? Or anyone that has come over to watch. Just because I dont have a personal agenda against any FIOS competitor doesnt mean i cant tell good PQ.
And if you havent seen one compliment the picture quality after going to FIOS it has become OBVIOUS that you havent searched the threads at all.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

heisman said:


> If you HAVE to have those things, then you won't be happy with FIOS' Moto dvr. No 30 sec. fwd, no OTA, slowest channel changing known to man, no IR remote.


Just got back from three weeks in Europe and my two Fios Moto DVRs did not miss
one show that I had set up for recording (all were in HD of course). I do not
find channel changing slow on the Moto compared to my 622. Fios has all local
channels in HD and you do not have to pay for locals with Fios to get program
guide information. My Dish 622 never gave me local program guide info even though I paid Dish for locals. The OTA feature of the 622 as a receiver is not that
important, since all new TVs must have a digital OTA receiver. My Sony HDD 500
is a much better OTA receiver than the 622. Gets more channels and has a 60
hour HD hard drive capacity which is 5 hours more than the new 722 hard drive.
Do not miss the IR remote. My Fios remote controls both the set top box and
my TV just fine. One button to turn on and off both TV and box. One remote for
the sound. Also the Fios remote controls my cable box so I can watch MLB EI
using one remote.

I have basic NTL cable in Europe which includes Setanta, Sky News and Sky One. Way behind US in HD. Price for new HD subs to get an HD box with an HD package is 299 Euros. This is not a DVR just a box. Without the HD package, price is 399 Euros.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Actually NTL does not have HD. It was Sky, which is satellite that offers HD. The
HD box is a dual tuner DVR, no non HD box option, price is 299 sterling not Euros
with an HD subscription or 449 Euros in European countries outside the UK. In US dollars that is an upfront price of over $600 to start out with HD in Europe. As far as I know, there is no cable HD, only satellite.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Hound said:


> ... The OTA feature of the 622 as a receiver is not that
> important, since all new TVs must have a digital OTA receiver. ...


It may not have been important to you, but I can assure you it is important those of us that do not want to watch the show live with commercials. (Do they still have commercials?  )


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

SaltiDawg said:


> It may not have been important to you, but I can assure you it is important those of us that do not want to watch the show live with commercials. (Do they still have commercials?  )


I couldnt agree more. I have a cable running to my tv for the tuner in it, but i cant remember the last time i used it to watch. Its just a backup in case something happens.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

SaltiDawg said:


> It may not have been important to you, but I can assure you it is important those of us that do not want to watch the show live with commercials. (Do they still have commercials?  )


The FIOS program lineup includes all local channels in HD with better PQ than Dish.
Includes HD PBS, CW, UPN, etc. and a program guide. There is complete reliability of signal vs. OTA. There is no need for OTA recording with Fios DVR. The Dish channel lineup does not include all HD channels available OTA, so OTA recording is necessary if Dish is your provider. With the Fios DVR, you can record in HD the OTA
content with better reliability than recording real OTA on the Dish DVR. And you can fast forward through the commercials as well!!!!


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## rocky01 (Mar 20, 2005)

I've been with Dish for a long time. I appreciate that they are actively trying to deliver improvements. I like that they are skinflints/hagglers with content providers who insist on a$tonishing package-bundling inflicted on viewers (although I still rue E* decisions concerning the NFL) since it keeps prices lower. I like that lately they are thinking about how to better serve existing customers. No question they know many of us have been demanding better picture quality/bandwith, and for some time. Even on HD we get unforgiveable artifacts like macroblocking almost a year after they rolled out HD.

I will be switching to FIOS as soon as my HD/DVR commitment is up in couple of months. I already have FIOS for internet; can't wait to get Fios TV and in one swoop get simplified billing, obvious SD & HD PQ increase (most importantly) and DVR -- all for less price. It's a dispassionate decision.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> although I still rue E* decisions concerning the NFL


Ah, but Dish has never had the chance to bid on Sunday Ticket (assuming that is what you meant). Directv has had a "small dish" exclusive on it from their first year, before Dish existed. After one long term contract is over they simply re-up for the product at the price that the NFL is asking, so no other satellite providers (the only other one being Dish) gets a chance to bid on it.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Hound said:


> The FIOS program lineup includes all local channels in HD with better PQ than Dish.
> Includes HD PBS, CW, UPN, etc. and a program guide. There is complete reliability of signal vs. OTA. There is no need for OTA recording with Fios DVR. The Dish channel lineup does not include all HD channels available OTA, so OTA recording is necessary if Dish is your provider. With the Fios DVR, you can record in HD the OTA
> content with better reliability than recording real OTA on the Dish DVR. And you can fast forward through the commercials as well!!!!


what do you base your PQ claims on? i think its subjective. Ive heard it from all three(d*. E* and fios) there is no pattern, just wondering what you think makes it better


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> what do you base your PQ claims on?


Scientific facts that are further validated by eyewitness accounts.

Don't let the FACTS get in the way, but then again, thats never stopped you in the past.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Richard King said:


> Ah, but Dish has never had the chance to bid on Sunday Ticket (assuming that is what you meant). Directv has had a "small dish" exclusive on it from their first year, before Dish existed. After one long term contract is over they simply re-up for the product at the price that the NFL is asking, so no other satellite providers (the only other one being Dish) gets a chance to bid on it.


Interesting, that is not what was reported in the trades. It was open up to bidding and no one wanted to step up to the price. Most likely, I would assume, that had guaranteed numbers of subs that would take the package - Dish could have done it if they were willing to commit to it and then sell it - instead of just saying they would pay x amount per person who wanted it with no guarantees (much like they did with MLB EI) and FIOS didn't have enough Franchises (or video customers at the present) to guarantee those kind of numbers they wanted.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Scientific facts that are further validated by eyewitness accounts.
> 
> Don't let the FACTS get in the way, but then again, thats never stopped you in the past.


oh its you again. you have left so many conversations open in the past i dont even listen.....and i wasnt asking you


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Scientific facts that are further validated by eyewitness accounts.
> 
> Don't let the FACTS get in the way, but then again, thats never stopped you in the past.


can you give the scientific facts?


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> can you give the scientific facts?


I have many times already - can you please wear your glasses this time?

Full bandwidth 1920x1080 pictures on FIOS versus bandwidth limited 1280x1080 pictures for HD on D*.

Full bandwidth SD pictures on FIOS versus bandwidth limited 480x480 pictures for SD on D*.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I have many times already - can you please wear your glasses this time?
> 
> Full bandwidth 1920x1080 pictures on FIOS versus bandwidth limited 1280x1080 pictures for HD on D*.
> 
> Full bandwidth SD pictures on FIOS versus bandwidth limited 480x480 pictures for SD on D*.


may i ask what kind of tv you have and the max resolution on it? You seem to be hung up on resolution. which when you ask most experts, is the least important thing when it comes to PQ.
If you dont have a 1080p panel, the resolution wont matter
not at the numbers you have given


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> may i ask what kind of tv you have and the max resolution on it? You seem to be hung up on resolution. which when you ask most experts, is the least important thing when it comes to PQ.
> If you dont have a 1080p panel, the resolution wont matter
> not at the numbers you have given


I have 5 - yes 5, 1080p capable screens now.

Again, I see your reading glasses were not on as resolution was only part of the equation.

And if you think resolution is the LEAST important thing when it comes to PQ, you better ask other "experts".

Let's me also add, D* doubles the size of the GOP from a typical 15 frame GOP to a 30 frame GOP and only uses one I-Frame - plus repeats 2 B-Frames back to back.

FIOS doesn't - yet another scientific PQ killer in FIOS's favor.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I have 5 - yes 5, 1080p capable screens now.
> 
> Again, I see your reading glasses were not on as resolution was only part of the equation.
> 
> ...


Yes I DO think that resolution, for 99% of the people that have HDTV's, is the least important thing when it comes to PQ. Because a high number of them are "only" 720p set and the added info is wasted on them. 
For you it seems to be a little more important than most.

Can you enlighten me as to what bit rate Fios uses on HD?


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Hound said:


> The FIOS program lineup includes all local channels in HD with better PQ than Dish.
> Includes HD PBS, CW, UPN, etc. and a program guide. There is complete reliability of signal vs. OTA. There is no need for OTA recording with Fios DVR. The Dish channel lineup does not include all HD channels available OTA, so OTA recording is necessary if Dish is your provider. With the Fios DVR, you can record in HD the OTA
> content with better reliability than recording real OTA on the Dish DVR. And you can fast forward through the commercials as well!!!!


Of course, we understand this. Same with Cable and Sat received "locals." Some of us want the ability to record *three* selections simultaneously.

Also, we understand the value of the seemingly near infinite Fios offers. What Is a deal breaker for at least *some* of us is the seemingly clunky/cluge job of DVR's that Fios currently has. I enjoy the Fios internet and phone in my home, but there'll not be TV for some time.

Maybe someday?


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

msmith198025 said:


> ... You seem to be hung up on resolution. which when you ask most experts, is the least important thing when it comes to PQ. ...


I've *never* heard any reputable source suggest resolution is the *least* important thing when it comes to PQ - nor, I suspect, have you.

Many of us have seen it listed fourth - right behind the three items that proper calibration address.

Funny thing that the importance of that which can not be adjusted on a given display is down played in importance by those that make a living by addressing those that can.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

SaltiDawg said:


> I've *never* heard any reputable source suggest resolution is the *least* important thing when it comes to PQ - nor, I suspect, have you.
> 
> Many of us have seen it listed fourth - right behind the three items that proper calibration address.
> 
> Funny thing that the importance of that which can not be adjusted on a given display is down played in importance by those that make a living by addressing those that can.


Im just saying that once you reach the maximum resolution that a set can display, the rest is thrown away. So using that, it wouldnt matter if it were 100000000X10000000 you wouldnt get any extra benefit from it. Bandwidth and how your set handles the info is more important


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> what do you base your PQ claims on? i think its subjective. Ive heard it from all three(d*. E* and fios) there is no pattern, just wondering what you think makes it better


I have both a Dish 622 and a Fios DVR hooked up to the same 1080P plasma TV. I used to have a Dish 622 and a Fios DVR hooked up to a 1080I plasma TV, but I am now down to one Dish Receiver. There is a noticeable improvement in PQ when watching the same channel on Fios, SD or HD. I have not measured bit rates like KenAF. His bit rates indicate that the Fios TV picture is better. A naked eye comparison tells me.

I am not knocking Dish, just posting the unbiased facts.


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## Lincoln6Echo (Jul 11, 2007)

I'm a mear simpleton here, so all I wanna know is is Verizon FIOS's light so clean that it's +20 dB hot?  And is that on the 1310, 1490 or 1550?


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

SaltiDawg said:


> Of course, we understand this. Same with Cable and Sat received "locals." Some of us want the ability to record *three* selections simultaneously.
> 
> Also, we understand the value of the seemingly near infinite Fios offers. What Is a deal breaker for at least *some* of us is the seemingly clunky/cluge job of DVR's that Fios currently has. I enjoy the Fios internet and phone in my home, but there'll not be TV for some time.
> 
> Maybe someday?


The number one reason that I chose Fios TV was it had channels that I wanted
not available on Dish. I still say that content is the number one reason to choose
a provider. (The channels I wanted were CSN Phila HD, YES HD and SNY HD).
Dish now has SNY HD, but does not provide it in my town.

I suspect very few people record three shows at once, or record two and watch a third. However, I occasionally do on Sunday nights. I use the dual tuner aspect of the Fios DVR and my Sony HDD 500 for OTA.

Fios' lower price and better PQ than Dish did not win me over. It was the content.

It seems that I will always have two TV providers because after having had
the sports packages on Dish, MLB EI and NBA League Pass, I am hooked. Fios
does not yet offer these, but my local cable company does. When I first signed
up with Dish, Dish offered the sports packages and my local cable company did
not. So this content has done a 360. Comcast is buying my local cable company,
and the deal is closing shortly. The Phila Sixers just announced the 2007-08
NBA TV schedule and five games will be on CN8 which is an exclusive Comcast
cable channel. The Phillies also have five games on CN8 and CN8 broadcasts
local college basketball, which I want to watch. So exclusive content, is going
to keep me as a sub with Comcast (second provider), not DVR quality or PQ.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Hound said:


> I have both a Dish 622 and a Fios DVR hooked up to the same 1080P plasma TV. I used to have a Dish 622 and a Fios DVR hooked up to a 1080I plasma TV, but I am now down to one Dish Receiver. There is a noticeable improvement in PQ when watching the same channel on Fios, SD or HD. I have not measured bit rates like KenAF. His bit rates indicate that the Fios TV picture is better. A naked eye comparison tells me.
> 
> I am not knocking Dish, just posting the unbiased facts.


and thats fine. Thats the kind of answer i was looking for.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Lincoln6Echo said:


> I'm a mear simpleton here, so all I wanna know is is Verizon FIOS's light so clean that it's +20 dB hot?  And is that on the 1310, 1490 or 1550?


lol


----------



## GeorgeHanson (Jun 16, 2007)

msmith198025 said:


> Yes I DO think that resolution, for 99% of the people that have HDTV's, is the least important thing when it comes to PQ. Because a high number of them are "only" 720p set and the added info is wasted on them.
> For you it seems to be a little more important than most.
> 
> Can you enlighten me as to what bit rate Fios uses on HD?


I have Dish now and I will borrow an idea from Don Landis on another thread. If Dish were able to send our channels in their optimum resolution then they wouldn't be throwing anything away and 720p and 1080p TV owners would be optimized. Example ESPN goes out at 1280 x 720 and Universal goes out at 1920 x 1080. Also Dish needs to get variable output as an option on the HD boxes so the indivdual channels picture can be optimized by the TV.

I will have Fios available in 6 months in my area and probably hold onto Dish for 1 month to compare. But I believe Fios will have better PQ for me as I have a 1080p set and right now Dish is sending me 1440 x 1080 on most channels. The previous poster who has Dish and Fios in his home and says that Fios looks better is the feedback that I wanted to hear if I am going to switch.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

GeorgeHanson said:


> I have Dish now and I will borrow an idea from Don Landis on another thread. If Dish were able to send our channels in their optimum resolution then they wouldn't be throwing anything away and 720p and 1080p TV owners would be optimized. Example ESPN goes out at 1280 x 720 and Universal goes out at 1920 x 1080. Also Dish needs to get variable output as an option on the HD boxes so the indivdual channels picture can be optimized by the TV.
> 
> I will have Fios available in 6 months in my area and probably hold onto Dish for 1 month to compare. But I believe Fios will have better PQ for me as I have a 1080p set and right now Dish is sending me 1440 x 1080 on most channels. The previous poster who has Dish and Fios in his home and says that Fios looks better is the feedback that I wanted to hear if I am going to switch.


On a 1080P set, you probably will see a slightly better picture on your set given the numbers they are pumping out. Everything else being fairly equal


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## Jack White (Sep 17, 2002)

msmith198025 said:


> what do you base your PQ claims on? i think its subjective. Ive heard it from all three(d*. E* and fios) there is no pattern, just wondering what you think makes it better


I think saying that FIOStv has better picture quality than Dish is about as subjective as saying an Enzo Ferrari is faster than your average Garbage Truck.
All the scientific facts such as average bitrate, resolution, etc say that Fiostv has much better picture quality, but to me the MOST important thing is that my EYES told m that Fios has much better picture quality. Dish and Directv have cried WOLF so many times about having "digital quality picture and sound" that nobody(who hasn't actually seen Fiostv in action) even believes that Fiostv actually does have the picture quality it says it has.


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## GeorgeHanson (Jun 16, 2007)

msmith198025 said:


> On a 1080P set, you probably will see a slightly better picture on your set given the numbers they are pumping out. Everything else being fairly equal


Also of importance to how much bandwidth is being transmitted is pixelation in moving scenes. I have a backwards scenario locally. My OTA PBS station multicasts and the signal sent for their HD is impacted. I can watch Smart Travels on OTA and see pixelation in panning scenes, but watching it on Equator it is rock solid. Point is that if a provider sends appropriate bandwidth other factors in the picture are improved other than resolution.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Jack White said:


> I think saying that FIOStv has better picture quality than Dish is about as subjective as saying an Enzo Ferrari is faster than your average Garbage Truck.
> All the scientific facts such as average bitrate, resolution, etc say that Fiostv has much better picture quality, but to me the MOST important thing is that my EYES told m that Fios has much better picture quality. Dish and Directv have cried WOLF so many times about having "digital quality picture and sound" that nobody(who hasn't actually seen Fiostv in action) even believes that Fiostv actually does have the picture quality it says it has.


while i havent seen fios, i dont agree based on people that i know that have both. the difference, they say, is not much if any.
thats why im getting opinions here


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Interesting, that is not what was reported in the trades. It was open up to bidding and no one wanted to step up to the price. Most likely, I would assume, that had guaranteed numbers of subs that would take the package - Dish could have done it if they were willing to commit to it and then sell it - instead of just saying they would pay x amount per person who wanted it with no guarantees (much like they did with MLB EI) and FIOS didn't have enough Franchises (or video customers at the present) to guarantee those kind of numbers they wanted.


I could be wrong, it has happened once in a while, but my understanding is that Directv has always had a right of first refusal in that the package is always offered to them at a price and if they take the price it's off the table to anyone else. They have always paid the price so no one else has had the chance to grab it. Like I said though, I could be wrong.

Edit.... according to Wikipedia, you know, that "encyclopedia" that anyone can write, Dish Network and other carriers were offered the package in this last go around, but refused to various conditions. Directv took the conditions and paid $700Million a year. That's nearly enough to launch two satellites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Sunday_Ticket


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> Yes I DO think that resolution, for 99% of the people that have HDTV's, is the least important thing when it comes to PQ. Because a high number of them are "only" 720p set and the added info is wasted on them.
> For you it seems to be a little more important than most.
> 
> Can you enlighten me as to what bit rate Fios uses on HD?


You just won't ever get it.:nono2:

The answer was in the quote from your last post.


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## Ken_F (Jan 13, 2003)

msmith198025 said:


> Im just saying that once you reach the maximum resolution that a set can display, the rest is thrown away. So using that, it wouldnt matter if it were 100000000X10000000 you wouldnt get any extra benefit from it. Bandwidth and how your set handles the info is more important


It's not just resolution. High-definition video on Dish is often bit-starved during complex scenes (i.e. those with movement). I'm certain you've seen blocking artifacts when there was a lot of movement on your screen.

With FiOS, you don't get those blocking artifacts with any regularity.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> You just won't ever get it.:nono2:
> 
> The answer was in the quote from your last post.


No, all ive seen you post is resolution numbers, which i have already stated and been backed up on, that that is only a small part of what gives you good or bad PQ. One other thing is bit rate, and the only info you have given on that is "low" or "high"
If i missed it i apologize, im just trying to get actual facts here, not argue with you.


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## bthessel (Oct 26, 2004)

Ok, I am convinced. Now someone get Fios in the other 95% of the country (land mass not population) outside of the northeast so I can have it here in Cincinnati. I think if things get started today I could have it by 2030.


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## brennt (Sep 18, 2003)

Lincoln6Echo said:


> I'm a mear simpleton here, so all I wanna know is is Verizon FIOS's light so clean that it's +20 dB hot?  And is that on the 1310, 1490 or 1550?


Not sure about all that, but I can say the Verizon guy has a... nice truck.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> No, all ive seen you post is resolution numbers, which i have already stated and been backed up on, that that is only a small part of what gives you good or bad PQ. One other thing is bit rate, and the only info you have given on that is "low" or "high"
> If i missed it i apologize, im just trying to get actual facts here, not argue with you.


You continue to prove my past posts.

Re-Read it the 5th time very S L O W L Y.


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## rocky01 (Mar 20, 2005)

bthessel said:


> Ok, I am convinced. Now someone get Fios in the other 95% of the country (land mass not population) outside of the northeast so I can have it here in Cincinnati. *I think if things get started today I could have it by 2030*.


:lol: :lol: 
I know it's late, since this struck me as very funny, but sounds like you're saying it with a straight face. I just don't think everyone will be able to opt in to Fiber Optics since they have to go with hat in hand before communities selectman and then reach into deep pockets. In the meantime, if Dish is smart they'll work on PQ on their end and encourage content providers to do the same ASAP.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

rocky01 said:


> :lol: :lol:
> I know it's late, since this struck me as very funny, but sounds like you're saying it with a straight face. I just don't think everyone will be able to opt in to Fiber Optics since they have to go with hat in hand before communities selectman and then reach into deep pockets. In the meantime, if Dish is smart they'll work on PQ on their end and encourage content providers to do the same ASAP.


E* and D* going with HD-LITE has proven to the content providers (and cable companies for that matter) they do not have to worry about PQ - and as thus convinced them they can lower their standards.

FIOS is the only one concerned with PQ at this time.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> You continue to prove my past posts.
> 
> Re-Read it the 5th time very S L O W L Y.


ok, i guess i missed where you put the bit rate numbers. you are right. my bad.....


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> ok, i guess i missed where you put the bit rate numbers. you are right. my bad.....


Please tell me after all the arguing for 2 weeks you are atleast a little brighter than this.

There is NO STANDARD BITRATE from the Content Providers.

I said FULL BITRATE....meaining, if HDNET sends out 17.57Mbps Video on HDNET Movies, you get 17.57Mbps Video on HDNET Movies @ 1920x1080.

If HBO-HD East is limited to 14.25 Mbps total stream then you get 14.25 Mbps total stream of 1920x1080.

If STARZ-HD is limited to 14.00 Mbps total stream then you get 14.00 Mbps total stream of 1920x1080.

And the same with the SD Feeds

FIOS is the only provider REALLY doing this.

D* and E* both drop and limit the bitrate, change the resolution, change the GOP (or MPEG4 equivilant) and encode in a less desirable sequence at a fixed pattern, Stat-Mux the feeds on the transponders to limit it even more if all the channels on a transponder need higher bitrates at the time.

Translation = garbage out.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Please tell me after all the arguing for 2 weeks you are atleast a little brighter than this.
> 
> There is NO STANDARD BITRATE from the Content Providers.
> 
> ...


wasnt that easy? I have found that its easier to get you to spell it out than to read it, get it right and comment, then you come back and put a different spin on what someone said. this way there is no confusion. thanks


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> wasnt that easy? I have found that its easier to get you to spell it out than to read it, get it right and comment, then you come back and put a different spin on what someone said. this way there is no confusion. thanks


No one else had a problem understanding the difference - that FULL BANDWIDTH doesn't mean PARTIAL BANDWIDTH.

And once again:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1058630&postcount=36



msmith198025 said:


> Maybe i should have stated it slightly different since even one small thing seems to throw you off. Lets try it again, just for you...


It appears that one small word throws YOU OFF - not me.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> No one else had a problem understanding the difference - that FULL BANDWIDTH doesn't mean PARTIAL BANDWIDTH.


i didnt have that problem either, i asked what the number was that they used if you knew. Like i have mentioned before i am not that familiar with FIOS. So i wouldnt know if they use 19.5Mbps on every channel or use what they get .


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## GeorgeHanson (Jun 16, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> E* and D* going with HD-LITE has proven to the content providers (and cable companies for that matter) they do not have to worry about PQ - and as thus convinced them they can lower their standards.
> 
> FIOS is the only one concerned with PQ at this time.


Bullseye!

Hopefully all content providers will provide full bandwidth in the future(launch more satellites), but the fact remains: Fiber optics allow for full bandwidth and that is why the second FiosTV becomes available in my area I will be ordering it. Blue ray and HDDVD have set the standard for display technology, it is time for service providers to step up to the plate.


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