# Neutered 921 upon release? Sad...



## dmodemd

The rumors are the 921 will now come out initially without PIP enabled! So, no Firewire and no PIP, what else won't be there because it is still buggy?

The 721 still has numerous issues and it came out more complete than this! One has to also wonder if they can effectively neuter these functions without introducing MORE interim bugs? I bet thats what they are doing now, scrambling to figure out how to disable all the functionality they have run out of time fixing.

I already decided a while ago I am not going to pay $999 to be a guinea pig. Anyone else come to the same conclusion?

Lee


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## Jerry G

dmodemd said:


> I already decided a while ago I am not going to pay $999 to be a guinea pig. Anyone else come to the same conclusion?
> 
> Lee


No. I want the time shifting capabilities of the 921 immediately. If that works OK, I'll be very happy to use the 921 until the other features are enabled.


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## boba

DISH has got to be FIRST in the marketplace. It really is a shame they have to release products that barely work and charge a ridiculous price for BASICALLY JUNK. I am a HAPPY DIRECTiVo customer because of this attitude by DISH.


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## Jerry G

boba said:


> I am a HAPPY DIRECTiVo customer because of this attitude by DISH.


I'm pleased that you are happy with DirecTV. I continue to look forward to the 921 and more HD channels in December.


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## Guest

No way I'm going to purchase a 921 if it ships without PIP. Its not that I need PIP, its rather that if its released without PIP until a later software version, that tells me that Dish is having problems with it and have to cut it out to get the software workable. 

You'd think Dish would learn from their previous experiences and get rid of the budget programmers . . .

I'm no directv fan, but at least their stuff seems to work right out of the box.


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## sleepy hollow

Where is your spirit, men?

Stop whining! The first auomobiles were plagued with problems, yet cost a fortune to own and operate relatively speaking. 

If you do not want to be first, then wait until things mature and settle down. Keep your treasure to yourself. No one can predict the time creative cycles require to complete. That's what software/firmware and hardware engineering are - creative pursuits. 

You are in St. Louis deciding whether to make the trip out West to seek adventure and excitement or whether to turn and go back East where civilization is better structured and considerably more comfortable.

Seems to me that some of you should head back East as you are not up to the trip. 

You are simply frustrated consumers and will always be so. 

We pioneers get our kicks out of the new and novel. We relish opportunities for adventure and uncertainty. We understand that someone has to blaze the trail for others to follow, and that the trail blazers often suffer the most. But then, they get to be there first.

As for me, I'm headed West....hyahhh!


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## alv

Consumer electronics should not be hard to use. Dish DVR sometimes are. Having buggy products happen. Microsoft set a low standard and others are following.


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## BobMurdoch

<cue the Right Stuff music>

- Cut to the local A/V retailer a small gang of nerds walks in slow motion out of the front door with large boxes under their respective arms -

< the drill sargeant from Full Metal Jacket is bellowing >

"Where's your spirit, MAGGOTS? Are we gonna be afraid of a few bugs???!!"

"Hell, no! If you want no risk, go stuff your money in your mattress. But Penny and her little pink panties will probably find your stash and go buy SHOES with it so you might as well suck it up! Don't be a P***Y! "

"Now drop and give me a THOUSAND!. "


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## dishrich

sleepy hollow said:


> You are in St. Louis deciding whether to make the trip out West to seek adventure and excitement or whether to turn and go back East where civilization is better structured and considerably more comfortable.


I'd just as soon stay in St.Louis... :lol:


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## kstevens

Jerry G said:


> No. I want the time shifting capabilities of the 921 immediately. If that works OK, I'll be very happy to use the 921 until the other features are enabled.


That is my feelings exactly. Once it is available, I will be ordering.

Ken


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## Bob Haller

sleepy hollow said:


> Where is your spirit, men?
> 
> Stop whining! The first auomobiles were plagued with problems, yet cost a fortune to own and operate relatively speaking.
> 
> If you do not want to be first, then wait until things mature and settle down. Keep your treasure to yourself. No one can predict the time creative cycles require to complete. That's what software/firmware and hardware engineering are - creative pursuits.
> 
> You are in St. Louis deciding whether to make the trip out West to seek adventure and excitement or whether to turn and go back East where civilization is better structured and considerably more comfortable.hyahhh!


Hey back when Ford built the first car, its true it had lots of problems. But if General motors was already in business and building one that had much nicer features and tended to work from the first turn of the key which one would be more successful today?


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## bolco

HMMM, which one *is* more successful today?


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## valand_krisban

bolco said:


> HMMM, which one *is* more successful today?


hilarious


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## Martyva

Ford didn't build the first car. I should know, i was there


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## fizgig

If it records and pauses HD that's good enough for me


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## sleepy hollow

To Alv: I wish I could imitate Microsoft's example. We all should be lucky enough to put out such poor quality stuff. And where does the "consumer electronics should.." come from? Who decreed this? Perhaps you have simply set your expectations at a level no one could ever meet. Then you can just play critic and always be right. 

To Bob H.: You have hoisted yourself on your own petard. IF GM HAD...? C'mon, that's the whole point. There was no GM and what happened is what actually happened. Ford succeeded, warts and all. All success is covered in warts if you really look carefully. Everything from D-Day to Pamela Anderson has "issues."

Cheer up, men. At least you have something this advanced to criticize.


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## Jacob S

Its a question of whether you would rather wait without having a 921 or wait having a 921 that you are able to use until there is a fix for the problems with a little less functionality so that you can still record your HD content.


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## tm22721

If (!satisfied)
{
dumpOnEbay();
}


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## Bob Haller

tm22721 said:


> If (!satisfied)
> {
> dumpOnEbay();
> }


Superdish requires one year commitment on HD channels

So much for that idea.


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## RAD

Now if the PIP worked for HD then I'd miss it but my understanding that PIP was only going to work for SD anyway, so if that's true I really won't miss it. As for the firewire for me it would be a nice to have, but I sure don't want them to delay the box just because that's not working. If they can just get me the same PVR funtionality as the 50X series I'd be happy.


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## mnassour

Folks, we're not talking about cars, we're talking about satellite receivers here.

Watching television shouldn't be a technical challenge. Dish continues to make it one, and unnecessarily so. From the days of blackouts on the old 4000 to the *real* Dishplayer, to today's 721 to rumors about crippled 921s about to ship, Dish continues to fail to deliver on promises when new equipment is launched.

What if that Ford/GM product/Honda/whatever you just bought came with and air conditioner that didn't work for the first six months? What if the hot water heater in your new $500,000 home didn't work for the first year? What if your HD monitor would only run 480P instead of 1080i until the software was "upgraded"? I really don't think we'd tolerate any of this.

Yet we continue to hang on each and every word Charlie Ergen says, when the man has demonstrated time and time again that the does *not* know how far along his beta hardware is, continues to make promises that his overworked engineers cannot fullfill, and (AFAIK) rushes hardware to market that is simply not ready.

I'd speculate that had Dish been the only satellite provider since day one, that DBS would be a much smaller industry today, since Echostar has proven with box after box that it is not capable of releasing equipment that is completely stable on day one of sales. The mass market is used to products that work the vast majority of the time. When I go back and read the litany of complaints about Dish on this...and other...forums, it amazes me that people such as us who are (allegedly) in the know continue to purchase its equipment.

All I know is that I don't any longer....and it felt so good when I stopped.


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## sleepy hollow

Cars were just one example. But, the A/C problem you mentioned was exactly the kind of problem that used to plague automakers in the 60s if you'll recall (no pun intended - recall, get it?). You brought it up.... Oh and all of those things had to be replaced when the Chicken Little loonies began to whine and wring their limp wristed hands about the imagined ozone hole that no one seems to be able to see. So, things are just not as simple as you imagine they should be. 

Well at least we know how you feel. I still respectfully disagree. 

And, I am delighted you are satisfied with whatever you are doing now. 

Tell you what:

I'll post another message when I get my 921 and I am recording HD from my program content supplier (DISH in my case) on my PVR. My message will inquire whether you are able to do this. 

If so, I lose. 
If not, I win. 

That's it. That's what it's all about. That is all that it is about. 

Are you game?


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## Orcatek

Cars still do this. Whenever a model is introduced you often here feature x will be available only later in the year of via a software upgrade. Yes cars are now computerized and get software upgrades. My 2003 has had 2 software upgrades to add features.

Welcome to the future - like it or not.


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## mnassour

Orcatek said:


> Cars still do this. Whenever a model is introduced you often here feature x will be available only later in the year of via a software upgrade. Yes cars are now computerized and get software upgrades. My 2003 has had 2 software upgrades to add features.
> 
> Welcome to the future - like it or not.


Perhaps, but I'm betting your new car wasn't advertised with certain features and then delivered with fewer?

In the early days, Dish receivers were supposed to have timers and were delivered without.

And I don't even want to *think* about all the plans Dish had for the Dishplayer. How many of us *ever* uploaded video to MSN through those front ports?


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## sleepy hollow

You are absolutely right, Orcatek. There are countless other examples I could offer on the water heaters and a dozen other related technology, mass production, and "consumerism" topics. 

Let's just say that one of the indicators that one is out on the "bleeding edge" is when this sort of emotion is expressed over "how things should be" rather than observations of "how things are."


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## mnassour

sleepy hollow said:


> Tell you what:
> 
> I'll post another message when I get my 921 and I am recording HD from my program content supplier (DISH in my case) on my PVR. My message will inquire whether you are able to do this.
> 
> If so, I lose.
> If not, I win.
> 
> That's it. That's what it's all about. That is all that it is about.
> 
> Are you game?


Given Dish's track record (Echostar promises the 921 by year's end, right?) and the fact that the HD Tivo isn't due out until March, I think I'll agree to this, sir. Especially given the track record of the hardware companies involved.

Now if we're talking about a PVR with three or fewer bugs, I (sadly) don't think it'll be much of a contest.

But then, my point is not about who gets there first. It's about who has the better long-term track record. If I remember correctly, Betamaxes were able to record five hours on a tape when VHS could only do four. And I think we all know how that turned out. And Betamax was a mature, reliable product.

There are two parts to this, 1) marketing and 2) product reliability/stability. Dishnetwork has done an excellent job with the first over the past couple of years, especially as DirecTV has slowed due to the fact that upper management was caught up with merger-itis. Charlie has gotten a lot of boxes into a lot of homes.

And in ten years, I'm sure that both will still be around. But when I compare the variety and reliability of D* hardware to the long string of "upgrades" that I received from E* over the years.....the choice was simple.

All I want to do is watch TV.....not beta-test for Echostar. :shrug:


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## sleepy hollow

Sorry, but I was not aware that the 921 was being advertised at all. the only thing I have seen are general press releases and spec sheets that clearly disclaim that the specs may not be exactly right. 

Another bastion of the angry consumer - it's false advertising! 

Naturally I am not in favor of false advertising, but this is a very lame excuse to be angry.

By the way, I have never been able to buy a car with one of those gorgeous women included in it. Have I missed something? Is someone not telling me something?


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## mnassour

sleepy hollow said:


> Sorry, but I was not aware that the 921 was being advertised at all. the only thing I have seen are general press releases and spec sheets that clearly disclaim that the specs may not be exactly right.


More confusion about what features will be available on coming Dish equipment? The better to deny features that were promised by Charlie ...but never delivered.

And your point about women in cars, sir, is not well taken. I think you know that's a red herring. :nono2:

What I've said here is simply based on extensive personal experience and what I've read here and on the other board, from one disillusioned DishNetwork customer after another. As you said about me, if you're happy with it, I'm happy for you! 

But when I was installing those DirecTivos for my friend the other day, I had to do the DirecTV equivalent of a checkswitch for each one. As the confirmations appeared, I thought "hey, I used to have to do this every week or so on every receiver". I'd forgotten about checkswitches, rebooting weekly, worrying aobut flakey software downloads and such. Soon...so will he.

:icon_peac

Mike Nassour


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## mattmcg

Heck, no offense but I've been sitting on HD compatible equipment for over 2 years now (without a decoder or receiver) and I'll just be happy to get an HD compatible device that actually displays an HD signal!

I've survived through the 721 software, how much worse can the 921 be???


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## Bob Haller

Orcatek said:


> Cars still do this. Whenever a model is introduced you often here feature x will be available only later in the year of via a software upgrade. Yes cars are now computerized and get software upgrades. My 2003 has had 2 software upgrades to add features.
> 
> Welcome to the future - like it or not.


Just curious? So how did the software upgrades go? Provide nice features? Better gas mileage?

What did the upgrades do? I know its OT but I am curious. It leads to my last questrion.

How would you feel if your car got upgraded and now ran poorly? Gas mileage down? Stumble and stall at lights?

You KNOW what I mean! The kinda operation Dish gets after upgrades?


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## sleepy hollow

This is a great discussion. I guess I would ask all of the anti-Dish crowd or the anti-Charlie crowd, or whatever, exactly what they think should be done that is not being done? 

And no fair answering by simply saying, for example, you want your 921 as you expected to get it. 

That begs the question of how to make that happen. I am asking what exactly should be done? What would you do if you were CE?


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## mnassour

And just what the heck is unfair about wanting a receiver to work...without any drama...right out of the box with all available hardware features enabled?

And even more importantly..to have it *stable?*


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## lonnman

mattmcg said:


> Heck, no offense but I've been sitting on HD compatible equipment for over 2 years now (without a decoder or receiver) and I'll just be happy to get an HD compatible device that actually displays an HD signal!
> 
> I've survived through the 721 software, how much worse can the 921 be???


I don't want to spend a $1000 on HW to just survive, more importantly; my wife just wants to watch TV, which I hear about every time the 721 hiccups. I didn't buy the 721 until 9 months after it came out, nor will I buy the 921 until much later. If the 921 is really based on the 721 SW, they have much work to do. I want to go all the way back to L108 (approx) on my 721, since in my opinion it has gotten worse since them.

If it was me, I would hold off the release of the 921 until all the base features (PIP) are in it, and then continuously fix bugs on a monthly or quarterly basis, without adding any new features until it is rock solid.

I will be watching from the early adopters of the 921, and probably compare it with the TivoHD when its released, on both price and features.

Jeff


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## xgrep

sleepy hollow said:


> What would you do if you were CE?


I would probably do exactly what Charlie is doing. If it's good enough for Bill Gates, it's good enough for Charlie. Keep an eye on that bottom line, and when the second derivative goes negative, find ways to offshore your R&D.

Then again, I like to sleep at night - without drugs.

x


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## davidahn

I understand some people would rather not deal with buggy firmware and absent features. I understand others want advanced features and are willing to put up with monster bugs for them. But each has a valid point, and neither side will ever convince the other, especially through vicious personal attacks. 

I really wish TiVO would make an HD PVR for DishNetwork, since they consistently get great reviews for software that WORKS. That said, I vote for "bring the 921 on!" I have a 120" 16:9 screen HD FPTV, so SDTV is offensive (nay, repulsive) to me. I work 50+ hours a week with a variable schedule, and travel a lot, so I miss a lot of HD programming I want to see. I WANT HD TIMESHIFTING. And I'm certainly not going to switch to DirecTV because they have PIP! Once my contract runs out, though, I'd certainly consider DirecTV's DirecTiVO if they have sufficient HD programming.

David


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## Kagato

xgrep said:


> I would probably do exactly what Charlie is doing. If it's good enough for Bill Gates, it's good enough for Charlie. Keep an eye on that bottom line, and when the second derivative goes negative, find ways to offshore your R&D.
> 
> Then again, I like to sleep at night - without drugs.
> 
> x


He already does offshore devel. Eldon technologies in the UK. And it still sucks.


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## tm22721

'If it was me, I would hold off the release of the 921 until all the base features (PIP) are in it, and then continuously fix bugs on a monthly or quarterly basis, without adding any new features until it is rock solid.
'

That is not Dish's style. Just look at the immaturity of the 721 yet the 921 is coming out.

Echostr's track record makes this much clear : The 921 will be superceded by a newer model well before it has stabilized to the satisfaction of the 'just give me a toaster' crowd, or been upgraded to meet empty promises like PIP or firewire to the bleeding edge types.

As usual very few will be pleased except the marketing dept at Echostar in securing dubious bragging rights about getting out the first HD PVR ahead of TIVO.


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## jerryyyyy

All these complaints. The 721 is nothing compared to Windows in terms of bugs.


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## TruePlayer

Yeah, the 721 is worse. I never have to reboot XP or mac OS X 10.3.



jerryyyyy said:


> All these complaints. The 721 is nothing compared to Windows in terms of bugs.


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## Bob Haller

Sad we were told that Linux would solve troubles but if appearances mean anything things are getting worse

I waited a long time to buy a 721 and now very much regret my purchase...........


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## Jerry G

Bob Haller said:


> I waited a long time to buy a 721 and now very much regret my purchase...........


Sometimes life just isn't fair. Get over it and move on.


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## Bob Haller

Jerry G said:


> Sometimes life just isn't fair. Get over it and move on.


If it still had the previous software it would be fine.


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## Nathan_R

While I was reading the 811 brochure on dishnetwork's website this morning, I ran into the 921 brochure, in case someone hasn't seen it-- http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/product_brochures/dish_player-dvr_921.pdf


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