# Ok guys and gals, I really need your help.



## jclewter79

I live in an area that dish network cannot provide me an abc local due to one not being in my DMA. I am prevented from receiving a distant feed because an abc affliate in a neighboring DMA claims I am in their viewing area. I can't get the digital feed OTA and the analog feed comes in with audio but a snowy picture. Abc broadcast in VHF on the digital feed and all other channels in this DMA are UHF. I get all of them digtially. My signal meter on the TV acts like it can nearly get the channel and the scanner pauses when it gets to it like it is trying really hard to lock on to it. I have approx. 75 feet of coax between the tv and the antenna. Will an amplifier help me? Any ideas would be great. This is also a brand new antenna that should reach this far easily. Anything? I got nothing. My zip code is 76233.


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## gfrang

what i would do before you spend any more money is try several scans they are 
making a lot of changes try on different days. If it is a signal problem with 75 ft.of cable a preamp 
might help but get a low noise one. You can try to get the antenna up higher. 
Try the scans first i also had that problem and when i finally got it to work 
the signal strenght was fine.


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## scooper

Nothing like a bigger / better antenna, get it as high as you practically can and then add the low-noise preamp. A rotor for fine-tuning reception would also be a big plus. (Disregard the rotor if you're using dedicated antennas for each direction).


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## Tower Guy

jclewter79 said:


> My zip code is 76233.


Both Cooke County and Greyson County are in the same zip code. Cooke County is in the Dallas DMA. Greyson is in the ADA, OK DMA. With no locals via satellite it's likely that you're in Greyson County.

That said, reception of WFAA in Dallas on DTV should be possible with the right antenna. Antennaweb.org shows WFAA as the strongest Dallas station in your zip code. WFAA-DT is currently the only VHF DTV station in Dallas. Do you have a VHF antenna on your roof that is aimed at Dallas?


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## JM Anthony

You may want to check out our sister site, avsforum.com and look to see if there's an OTA sub forum for your neck of the woods. You may find someone close to you and learn from their experience. 

Good luck.

John


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## jclewter79

Yes, I am in Grayson county. Dish network carries local out of the Sherman/Ada DMA which does not include ABC. I have the biggest anntena that radio shack carries, they claim that people in my area use it to pick up Dallas locals and it seems to work great for everything except WFAA DT. The way that I read www.tvfool.com it seems to show WFAA as one of the weakest when figuring for my address. www.antennaweb.org does not actually show the DT feed for WFAA, but does show the analog feed. WFAA claims I can get it and so far I have been unable to get a distant waiver because of them. I think it is so stupid that a channel outside my DMA can prevent me from getting a waiver but that is a dicussion for a different thread. I have the antenna mounted on a 3 foot tripod mounted to the roof with a 5 foot mast also from radio shack. I could go back and get a ten foot mast but I really don't want to install guy wires so I would be afraid to go much higher than that. It is so weird because it seems to be flashing on the signal meter briefly but just won't lock in. Their are trees in the area that are taller than the antenna but, not any directly in the line of sight. All the channels in Dallas broadcast from the same place but I just won't come in. I know that they say VHF broadcast farther than UHF but, that has never been my experience. I just am tired of throwing money at this problem without knowing what else to do.


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## Davenlr

What model Radio Shack antenna are you using? VU120? Try your scans at 8am, that should be when the best propagation is. Have you hooked the antenna into the tuner in your HDTV and see if it will scan in there? Short of that, your choices appear to be 1: Challenge the waiver denial, 2: Buy a VHF antenna cut for that specific channel only, 3: Buy a FTA system for about $250 and watch ABC from another state in SD, 4: Try one of the new DTV converters (SD only) with a LG chipset in it, and hope it has a better tuner than what you are using now.

Edit: Checking the map, it looks like you are 40 to 50 miles from the transmitters, right? If that's the case, getting the antenna up another 10-15 feet or adding a channel master VHF/UHF amp might be your best options.


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## jclewter79

The antenna is the vu-190XR. Does anybody know anything about the antenna mount amplifer that radio shack sells model 15-2507? The reviews on their site are mixed. I just say radio shack because their stuff is a little more accessble to me than channelmaster stuff. I was thinking of stopping after work and buying it and anouther 10 ft mast. I am using the tuner built in to the tv (no HD on dish for me yet). I have coupons coming soon for converters for other TV's I would hate to downrez to my HD though but, it might come to that because I am not gonna buy a standalone tuner. I will get the 722 before I do that and try it. I have been looking for an excuse to do that anyway.


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## Davenlr

You can try the rat shack amp, I've never had uch luck with them. At least you can return it easily.

If you have a good electrical supply house, a stick of EMT conduit which matches your mast and antenna (1 1/4 or better yet 1 1/2) is usually more rigid than the gold masts sold for tv antennas, and about 1/2 the price.


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## scooper

I wouldn't bother with the Radio Shack preamps - get a ChannelMaster or Winegard for best results. You may also want to consider the same brands (their big ones) for your antenna.

You ARE on a rotor ?

The Radio Shack "mileage ratings" are overly optimistic - cut it down by at least half.

Also I concur with getting that antenna WAY UP - at least 50 feet AGL - after I did a generic TVfool.com plot for your zipcode.


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## gfrang

I never had much luck with RS i now have channel master antenna ant rota and wineguard preamp. Rule of thumb get antenna up high as possible any thing over 10ft should be guyed, preamp only to compensate only for line loss.


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## Jim5506

I'd go with an Antennas Direct 91-XG for UHF and a VHF high band yagi such as the Winegard YA-1713 joined with a CM7777 or similar Winegard pre-amp. Put it up about 60 ft. or more.


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## jclewter79

Thanks for all the help guys. I am gonna go look at some preamps tonight maybe buy one. I was really hoping not to go quite so high with an antenna but, now I am on a mission so no telling what will happen. Are there big box stores that sell channelmaster or winegard stuff. Some of the RS stuff is ok but I have figured out that it is not the best.


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## gfrang

First look in the yellow pages for a antenna installer they will come and go on your roof with a signal meter and give you a estimate. If you want to do the work yourself ask them if they will sell you what is needed. Another place to check is small tv repair shops sometimes they have antennas or the can point you in the right dirrection.
Last place is the internet http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx one place to start. If you get some one whit a signal meter first then you will knowhow big and how high you will need to go.


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## Tower Guy

jclewter79 said:


> The antenna is the vu-190XR.


The VU-190XR has about 7 db gain on channel 9.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Any preamp will help some, but I'd get an antenna with more gain on channel 9.


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## jclewter79

thank you tower guy. wish I had seen this article before I before I bought. But, I guess I will try to go higher first. I tried an amp that you use inside the wall from home depot last night and it killed all the channels. I am going to go higher and maybe the channelmaster preamp. With more tuning I can get the analog WFAA halfway decent but the DT feed is still elusive. If I do get a new antenna, how much gain on channel 9 would it need?


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## eakes

Frys in Plano has a Channelmaster preamp. I have used RS and WalMart preamps with some degree of success in Davis, Okla to pick up the Dallas stations several years back, all analog of course.

You should be able to pick up the Dallas stations with 18-20 ft yagi with a preamp. Several years ago I had such a configuration up about 40 feet and could get Ada on a regular basis if I turned the antenna north.


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## Scott in FL

Your antenna's not bad for channel 9, but do buy a decent preamp like a Channel Master and put it at the antenna. Low noise figure is what you're going for (pay no attention to gain). That sets the noise floor at the antenna.

To be honest, I can't quite understand why you're having problems with analog and DT reception of WFAA. I'd like to suspect multipath, but if you're having trouble getting snow free analog reception, then it's not multipath. You don't live that far away from the Dallas transmitters.

Have you tried pointing your antenna towards the Lawton, OK, ABC station? KSWO is on channel 11. Its antenna is a bit lower, but its power is almost 10 dB higher. Might be worth a shot.

Finally, a single channel yagi for channel 9 would be your best antenna. I used to use a single channel yagi for channel 8 when I lived in VA to pull in a PA station. Stark Electronics can help you with this and a good preamp too. Stay away from Home Depot and Radio Shack. Good luck.


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## jclewter79

That thing from home depot stinks it will be going back tommorow. I just ordered a channelmaster 7777 from solid signal so maybe in a couple days I will be set. I have not tried to point at lawton yet but that is an idea. I hope with this preamp and maybe 5 more feet of mast I can get the job done. I know people in the area that get good analog from channel 8 but most of them are up a little higher than I am. Hopefully in a day or two this will be fixed.


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## jclewter79

eakes said:


> Frys in Plano has a Channelmaster preamp. I have used RS and WalMart preamps with some degree of success in Davis, Okla to pick up the Dallas stations several years back, all analog of course.
> 
> You should be able to pick up the Dallas stations with 18-20 ft yagi with a preamp. Several years ago I had such a configuration up about 40 feet and could get Ada on a regular basis if I turned the antenna north.


I looked at the fry's website and they did not show the 7777. I imagine that it would be cheaper from solid signal anyways even if the pllano store did have one.


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## Scott in FL

The CM7777 is an excellent preamp, very low noise figure. Just doing some calculations this morning and your distance to WFAA-DT is about 65 miles. If your antenna and that preamp don't work, and assuming you have the antenna installed in the clear at a decent height, then something's wrong. The only things left are your location, antenna and tuner. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

By the way, the distance to the Wichita Falls/Lawton transmitter is 110 miles, a long haul indeed. But it might be worth a shot if your house is in a bad location for WFAA. The additional attenuation for 110 miles vs 65 miles is roughly 5 dB. But the Lawton station's power is 9 dB greater. You pick up 4 dB by pointing towards Lawton, but at that distance you're bound to have fading and multipath (especially during the summer).

This is a fun one... wish I could be there to help!


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## gfrang

Well with 65mi between you and the tower via bird just a couple of things to think of. What's between you and the tower, how high the tower is, and what kind of power are they transmitting.


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## jclewter79

Here is my deal from tv fool if it helps anybody with any ideas.


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## gfrang

jclewter79 said:


> Here is my deal from tv fool if it helps anybody with any ideas.


Hight 473.0 m
power 18.6 kw


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## jclewter79

scooper said:


> I wouldn't bother with the Radio Shack preamps - get a ChannelMaster or Winegard for best results. You may also want to consider the same brands (their big ones) for your antenna.
> 
> You ARE on a rotor ?
> 
> The Radio Shack "mileage ratings" are overly optimistic - cut it down by at least half.
> 
> Also I concur with getting that antenna WAY UP - at least 50 feet AGL - after I did a generic TVfool.com plot for your zipcode.


Sorry for the late reply but no, I am not on a rotor.


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## jclewter79

gfrang said:


> Hight 473.0 m
> power 18.6 kw


Correct. As I read this from my location I should get direct line of site at 14.7 feet above the ground right? Also is 18.6 kw pretty low? Seems much lower that the other channels coming from the same place, could this be my problem?


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## gfrang

jclewter79 said:


> Correct. As I read this from my location I should get direct line of site at 14.7 feet above the ground right? Also is 18.6 kw pretty low? Seems much lower that the other channels coming from the same place, could this be my problem?


It might be doable looks like it is going to be high and big.Take these figures with you when you go shopping. Antenna retailers will know or someone else here might have ideas.


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## Jim5506

jclewter79 said:


> Correct. As I read this from my location I should get direct line of site at 14.7 feet above the ground right? Also is 18.6 kw pretty low? Seems much lower that the other channels coming from the same place, could this be my problem?


The 28.6kW is not that low considering it is a VHF channel.

Ideally they should be up around 100kW but there may be some interference issues in the area for an other channel 9.

They go back to channel 8 in 2009, but indications are that the 21.33kW actually is weaker at your location.


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## Davenlr

18.6KW is low power, and explains why you can't lock at 60 miles. High VHF analog runs 316.0 KW, and if THAT is snowy, you are going to have fun. Hopefully the 777 will fix it. If not, about your only choice is a single channel yagi with the preamp, mounted high, like on a 40' push up mast, or a big flagpole. I would call the station before you spend to much, and speak to engineering. Ask them if they know when they are going to raise power and what channel they will be on post transition. Its possible they are just using ch 9 at low power until Feb, and will go back to ch 8 full power. I'm not at my computer, so can't check the fcc site to see. Might be listed at www.rabbitears.info/dtv.php 
Edit: Checked the site, and their last status report shows they are not planning on going full power til Feb 09 on ch 8. Also others moving from UHF to VHF hi, so you will need a high gain VHF-HI antenna, not a single channel antenna. Those are not cheap, but are much smaller than a VU 190. They only cover 7-13. and are long booms but short elements. Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress


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## jclewter79

I think my height is one of my problems. I know that people in my area are able to get all the VHF channels from Dallas with this vu 190 up a little higher. Can I assume that if I am able to get all the VHF analogs to come in clear when digital comes full power I SHOULD be able to get them all? The 7777 is supposed to come in on saturday but, may be monday till I can get it hooked up. I hope it does some good. If not time to go higher.


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## Davenlr

I'm not sure about VHF, but with tests here in Central Arkansas where we have a 5 MW UHF analog on ch 16 and its full power digital on Ch 30, the coverage of the digital is equal to or a little greater than the analog. I'm sure once the Dallas stations go full power, you won't have any problems, especially if you can get all the UHF ones ok now. The VHF ones WILL cut out and break up badly during storms, but you should be ok with the VU190 once they are all full power.


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## jclewter79

Thats what I figured, looks like the early DT adopters are going to catch all kinds of fun through next feb. This is kinda fun but, at some point you just want it to work.


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## Tower Guy

jclewter79 said:


> Here is my deal from tv fool if it helps anybody with any ideas.


Are you close to KHYI (FM)? http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM630995.html
If so, try an FM trap. Their second harmonic would fall in channel 9


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## Davenlr

I may be wrong, but if a FM station was actually transmitting a second harmonic strong enough to interfere with a broadcast station on ch 9, the station would have to install a filter, I believe. A fm trap would only block 88-108 MHz, but wouldn't affect the harmonic at all... I was thinking FM traps were only effective to prevent overload on channel 6 from close by FM stations causing front end overload to the TV tuner. ?????


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## jclewter79

I do get KHYI I do not know where their tower is though. The CM comes from the factory with an FM trap that is set to filter correct?

Edit: now that I look at the map you showed that tower is about 5 miles down the road from my house.  maybe that has something to do with it.


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## Davenlr

Check ch 9 on an analog tuner and see if you see anything other than snow...that might give you a clue. Not sure how the FM traps are set from the factory...Worth turning on though if you are only 5 miles from their tower .


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## jclewter79

Nothing but snow on ch. 9. When that CM 7777 gets here today I will make sure it is turned on, no need to take any chances.


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## Scott in FL

Davenlr said:


> 18.6KW is low power, and explains why you can't lock at 60 miles. High VHF analog runs 316.0 KW, and if THAT is snowy, you are going to have fun.


You can not compare analog transmitting powers with digital transmitting powers. Analog requires a much higher power than digital. For example, WINK here in FL transmits at 316 KW on channel 11 analog, 20 KW on channel 9 digital. Both use horizontal polarization. The coverage areas are very comparable. This is one of the reasons broadcasters are anxious to go digital: it requires much less power (I used to work at WINK until 2 months ago as a transmitter engineer).

The 18.6 KW power of WFAA channel 9 is OK, and the signal at your location will be about the same when they move to channel 8.

I still don't understand why you have a snowy analog picture, with your antenna and location. Does your antenna look like it's been damaged? Are the longer elements OK and everything seem in place?

All FM transmitters are required to have harmonic filters, but this raises an important point. When you install your 7777 preamp, if there's an FM transmitter nearby you might want to switch the FM trap on.


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## jclewter79

Yes scott, the antenna is in fine condition, it is brand new bought it a week ago no visible damage. The only thing I can figure on the snow is maybe height. I know that some in my area do install a little higher than mine which is at about25-30 feet (5 ft above the highest part of the roof). I can and will go another 5 feet in need be but, since I can not afford a tower and don't really want to run guy wires I want to see if I need to first. I just want to thank everybody in here for their help. Ya'll have been great.


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## jclewter79

The preamp is loaded on the fedex truck. Just waiting for the driver to get here


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## jclewter79

Anybody in here have any tips about running guys wires. I guess the reason I am so against it is because I don't know how to do it and it seems like a tough job.


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## Tower Guy

Davenlr said:


> I may be wrong, but if a FM station was actually transmitting a second harmonic strong enough to interfere with a broadcast station on ch 9, the station would have to install a filter, I believe. A fm trap would only block 88-108 MHz, but wouldn't affect the harmonic at all... I was thinking FM traps were only effective to prevent overload on channel 6 from close by FM stations causing front end overload to the TV tuner. ?????


The second harmonic would be generated in the preamp, not the transmitter. When you filter out the fundamental before the preamp, the second harmonic goes away.

In any event, 5 miles away would not normally cause that much overload.


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## eakes

Since you are starting from roof, 20 ft of mast should get you to 45 ft above ground. You need a set of guys every 10 feet about your roof, this would mean two sets of guys. I would also use a rotor to turn the antenna.
You need to start with a 20 ft pushup mast, it will have the collars for the guy wires. So a 20 ft mast, rotor and 5 ft mast section between antenna and rotor should give you 45-50 ft AGL. A set of guys under the rotor and at the 10 ft level above the roof mount. The guys need to close to 120 degrees apart and as far back from the mast as physically possible. You need galvanize wire for the guy wire, turnbuckles to tension the guys and galvanized 'boots' where the wire goes through the collars at the mast and at the turnbuckles.
You can do the install yourself but it having more bodies makes it easier. With a 20 ft pushup mounted on the roof you can attach the guys and extend the mast before installing the antenna. With the guys inplace, lower the mast, mount the rotor and antenna, then raise the top section. You will need a ladder on the roof to reach the top of the first mast section.


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## Davenlr

Thanks for the harmonic info, I was thinking you were talking about the one the station filters out at the transmitter...

As far as guy wires, before you go to the expense and manpower of stringing guy wires all over, it *might* be cheaper to search the ROHN website and others and see if they still sell 10' and 15' tripods. I have a 15' tripod on my single story. Top of the tripod is already 30' up, then the rotor, and another 5' EMT conduit pipe puts the antenna at about 38' with no guy wires. Just used two bolts on each leg and made sure lag bolts bit into a rafter. Its survived > 60 mph gusts so far with no problems. They are much cheaper than ground mounted towers (or were when I got mine), and let you climb up to the antenna/rotor/amp for maintainance easily without having to disconnect any guys.


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## Davenlr

www.ronard.com/Tripods 0703/4712.html

Here is a link with pic showing what I'm talking about above...


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## jclewter79

Thank you so much Dave, I have already called and left a message to get pricing.


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## gfrang

Just do one thing at a time. Take a signal reading from one of the channels 
that you can get and if you get your preamp or something hook it up and 
check to see if and how much it improves. Then try to scan for ch 9.


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## jclewter79

I can hardly wait gfrang. Just waiting on that fed ex truck.


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## gfrang

jclewter79 said:


> Anybody in here have any tips about running guys wires. I guess the reason I am so against it is because I don't know how to do it and it seems like a tough job.


http://www.dslreports.com/faq/7151


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## jclewter79

gfrang said:


> http://www.dslreports.com/faq/7151


Thank you for the link


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## jclewter79

Ok guys, I got the preamp have to wait till my wife gets home to watch the kids so I can get on the roof, can't hardly wait


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## gfrang

Good luck let us know how it works out i will be in and out .


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## jclewter79

Sorry guys we went out to eat just got the preamp up and it works great thank ya'll all so much this great. Again all of ya'lls help has been great.


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## jclewter79

I am go back up and shut off the UHF side it seems to be getting a little blocking on some of the UHF channels but that is easily done. This so great thank ya'll sooooo much again.


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## Davenlr

I love stories with happy endings. Glad it worked out without having to spend lots of money.


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## jclewter79

Me too. actually this morning wfaa is not working but with a little fine tuning i'll have it fixed. this is so great.


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## gfrang

I just woke up glad everything worked out whit out spending big bucks.


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## jclewter79

Thank you gfrang this preamp is great, I am getting analog audio from the NBC affliate out of Wichita Falls and I am not even pointed anywhere close to its direction and, it is on Channel 3!


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## jclewter79

Hey guys, I am considering adding another smaller VHF/UHF combo antenna to this setup to pick up a couple locals in the opposite direction. What combiner would I use to combine them together? Also these channels are much closer so should I combine before or after the preamp?


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## boba

jclewter79 said:


> Hey guys, I am considering adding another smaller VHF/UHF combo antenna to this setup to pick up a couple locals in the opposite direction. What combiner would I use to combine them together? Also these channels are much closer so should I combine before or after the preamp?


What are you looking for CH 12(20) and CH10 (26)?


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## jclewter79

boba said:


> What are you looking for CH 12(20) and CH10 (26)?


That would be correct boba, don't really want to add a rotor. Do you have any idea what type of combiner I should use in this case?


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## boba

CH10 is the PITA a little south of you I can aim the Dallas signal off a little to the west and pick up CH 12 but CH10 is too weak for that to work. Trying 2 antennas I end up losing signal on the Dallas stations because I pick up some of the Dallas stations on the back side of the antenna aimed for the Sherman DMA. I finally gave up on combining and just put the Sherman DMA on a digital ready 20" TV and watch 10-3 on it. In other words with just a little playing with the aim I can get all of Dallas and ch12 from the main antenna. I don't know what will happen in 2009 when 12 goes back to VHF 12 but I will just have to wait and see.


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## jclewter79

boba said:


> CH10 is the PITA a little south of you I can aim the Dallas signal off a little to the west and pick up CH 12 but CH10 is too weak for that to work. Trying 2 antennas I end up losing signal on the Dallas stations because I pick up some of the Dallas stations on the back side of the antenna aimed for the Sherman DMA. I finally gave up on combining and just put the Sherman DMA on a digital ready 20" TV and watch 10-3 on it. In other words with just a little playing with the aim I can get all of Dallas and ch12 from the main antenna. I don't know what will happen in 2009 when 12 goes back to VHF 12 but I will just have to wait and see.


Thanks boba, I don't really care to much about ch. 10 (to muck OK. crap on the news) I tried to catch 12 when aiming before but I guess I will try it again.


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## jclewter79

Also boba, what antenna do you use and, do you use a preamp?


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## tvtronics

well i need help with ota i have 2 towers here 4 fm transmitters now 5 96.9 fm90.1 105.7 translator low power fm, 104.5,(106.1 moved from the other tower which still has walk 97.5 and am 1370 broadcasting from it. The towers mess up all the vhf spectrum and fm 88-108 also guitar amps here radio on computer speakers hear radio when there off, car alarms dont work garage doors dont open or close due to towers fcc no help at all they came out here with there gear thats it contacted radio stations never showed. I have radio on uhf and vhf heringbone pattern on vhf 2,3,4,5,8,10,11, radio and 9 ch 61 has radio uhf my neighbors have problems also im on a hill in a valley sord of even cable is affected


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## scooper

tvtronics said:


> well i need help with ota i have 2 towers here 4 fm transmitters now 5 96.9 fm90.1 105.7 translator low power fm, 104.5,(106.1 moved from the other tower which still has walk 97.5 and am 1370 broadcasting from it. The towers mess up all the vhf spectrum and fm 88-108 also guitar amps here radio on computer speakers hear radio when there off, car alarms dont work garage doors dont open or close due to towers fcc no help at all they came out here with there gear thats it contacted radio stations never showed. I have radio on uhf and vhf heringbone pattern on vhf 2,3,4,5,8,10,11, radio and 9 ch 61 has radio uhf my neighbors have problems also im on a hill in a valley sord of even cable is affected


TVtronics - please start another thread


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