# Looks Like FoxNews' Turn (FOX News and FOX Business down 12/21/2014 and back 1/15/2015)



## Nashcat

Here we go again.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/544221730257244160


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## Willh

here's the dispute sites for both Dish and Fox:

Dish:
http://dishstandsforyou.com

Fox:
http://www.keepfoxnews.com


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## fudpucker

Good grief. I'm on Directv but that warning popped up on my Fox channel during the football game. Does someone at Dish get a bonus for every channel dispute?


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## yosoyellobo

Does not effect me. I get my news from Comedy Central.


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## Rduce

Pop up on my OTA Fox station during the football game!


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## James Long

yosoyellobo said:


> Does not effect me. I get my news from Comedy Central.


Four more days of Colbert.


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## James Long

Willh said:


> here's the dispute sites for both Dish and Fox:
> 
> Dish:
> http://dishstandsforyou.com
> 
> Fox:
> http://www.keepfoxnews.com


Fortunately DISH didn't need their site for the other recently resolved disputes ... they could convert it for use for this issue.

Fox news has had "keepfoxnews.com" since June 2012 ... so it looks like this is not their first rodeo either.


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## mwdxer

Personally I could care less about any news channels. I get plenty of them as it is. Add to that the zillion of them I get on the Roku, including Fox News and Fox Business News. For those who have high speed internet, get a Roku.


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## KyL416

If you are getting Fox News Channel and Fox Business live for free on the Roku it's a pirated stream. Their official Roku app only has Fox News Radio, the hour long FoxNews.com live webcast, and various clips. The only officially sanctioned live streams of their channels require a login with a participating provider.


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## Paul Secic

yosoyellobo said:


> Does not effect me. I get my news from Comedy Central.


Nice zinger!


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## tsmacro

From Dish:

DISH is nearing the end of its contract with FOX News Networks LLC., the owner of FOX News and FOX Business Network.

DISH promises its customers the best programming, and we work hard to do so at a fair value. We are unsure why FOX News Networks LLC. decided to involve customers in the contract negotiation process at a point when there is time to reach a mutually beneficial deal.

DISH is actively working to reach a deal before the contract expires and has successfully negotiated agreements representing hundreds of stations in recent months that benefit all parties, including our viewers.


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## nmetro

Surely, FOX would not pull the most watched news channel from 14 million potential viewers, or would they?

I wonder is FOX will spread this to their other owned or partially owned channels? Some folks are still reeling from the FOX Sports 1 issue in early September

It is getting to the point they we are seeing program carriage dispute of the week.

I wonder how long cable, satellite companies and providers are going to play this game, before the subscribers just go away in disgust?


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## Orion9

nmetro said:


> It is getting to the point they we are seeing program carriage dispute of the week.


Well, if you hang out on a satelite TV forum. On the other hand, the last one I can recall that actually had a noticeable impact on our TV viewing was in early 2009.


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## Slamminc11

definitely wouldn't miss it if it were gone. It's no more a news channel than MSNBC anyway, so...


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## ronton3

Rupert Murdock would not want anyone to miss the lies and crap they put out on Fraud News, so it will not last long.


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## Stewart Vernon

Well, we knew FOX would be up for renewal eventually... and expect not only FOX News but FOX Sports to be part of the negotiations. I can't see why FOX wouldn't want to get in on whatever ABC and CBS have already gotten.

NBC will come up eventually too.


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## festivus

Dispute of the month. Or the week. I don't watch much cable news so this doesn't affect me but I'm still tired of it.

What angers me the most are the pissing matches between the parties. Messages scrolling across the screen spreading the propaganda from either side. Interrupting viewing on other channels.

Negotiate your billion dollar deals so your executives can all get their huge salaries and bonuses and leave us out of it. And then I'll look forward to my January price increase.


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## WestDC

ALL of these Contract Disputes are a Setup to enable Phony "EYEBALL" Counts - in the form of Phony Outrage for both sides - internet count clickers are recorded by ad banners asking for support on both sides -


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## PCampbell

I could read both sides press release but I am sure they say the same stuff as the ones from the last dispute and the one before that and so on........


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## KyL416

Dish said:


> We are unsure why FOX News Networks LLC. decided to involve customers in the contract negotiation process at a point when there is time to reach a mutually beneficial deal.


Apparantly the deadline is Friday:
http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/215648-dish-network-fox-news-channel-face-friday-deadline/

So if a 5 day warning is too soon to notify viewers, when should they be alerted? After they're pulled like what happened with Turner? Most renewals are completed without anyone knowing until after the fact when a press release is issued or it's mentioned in a small blurb in their quarterly report. However if there's less than a week left and they're not close to a deal or extension, viewers should be alerted so they can make alternate arrangements. (i.e for things like Cartoon Network/Adult Swim find a friend who will let you watch the new episode of a show at their house, for CSN find a local sports bar to see the game, etc)


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## festivus

How every press release and scrolling message should begin when this crap happens:

"In an effort to increase your cable and satellite bills beyond the point of affordability and to further pad the pockets of our executives..."


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## Stewart Vernon

_If people cannot keep it civil and stop the personal attacks, this thread will be closed and then everyone will miss out on discussing the actual issue, which is potential loss of a channel. Please discuss the topic, not politics or each other. Thanks!_


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## inkahauts

Do we know where dish has more subscribers by area of the country? That could have an impact on how much of an impact this thing could create but I suspect it'll be a mostly non event similar to the CBS one which really wasn't an event since it didn't last but close to 12 hours.


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## James Long

Stewart Vernon said:


> _If people cannot keep it civil and stop the personal attacks, this thread will be closed and then everyone will miss out on discussing the actual issue, which is potential loss of a channel. Please discuss the topic, not politics or each other. Thanks!_


FYI: Off topic posts removed. (It is too easy to reply to a bad post before seeing the warning.)


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## tommiet

Don't watch it... Won't miss it..... Is it gone yet?


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## Barrysb

As the cable ratings for Fox News far out pace any of the other cable news services, I'm figuring there will be a great number of Dish viewers who will not take loosing FNC too kindly. Certainly more push back than what Dish had when CNN was off the channel lineup.


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## mwdxer

I have no idea if FOX streams or not on the Roku. I never watch either channel. I just added them. I don't care, but isn't Dish to provider of FOX? My kid watches Disney on the Roku and I signed up with that. EPIX also I signed up, as we get those with Dish. I like having EPIX for free on the Roku. I don't remember how many different news channels that are available on the Roku, either private or not. I know there are a lot, plus many TV stations that run their news live or on demand. As far as I know, you cannot pirate anything on a Roku. If you can, that is news to me. If there is an app and the channel is added, I can get it. If not, I can't.


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## mwdxer

I guess with each channel we lose for a time, everyone has a different favorite. I watch a lot of news, but I like the local news best from different areas of the country. It is neat to get a bit of "flavor" from different parts of our country.


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## patmurphey

mwdxer said:


> I have no idea if FOX streams or not on the Roku...


You can stream FoxNews live, at least on a computer, but it requires a subscription with a provider, like with HBOGO. I'm sure that if it disappears from Dish, your streaming account will shut down.


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## KyL416

mwdxer said:


> As far as I know, you cannot pirate anything on a Roku.


There's several private apps out there circumventing geoblocks for certain channels that are not allowed to be streamed in the USA for contractual reasons. If you get a blocked in the USA message from the official source like LiveStation or the station's website, or even the official non-private app for that channel, while a private app lets you see it for free, it's one of them.


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## Cable Lover

This is one of the channels that I will really miss if it comes to pass. Here's hoping for a resolution.


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## djlong

I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I can't stand Fox News (not a big fan of the other nets so please don't jump to conclusions). On the other, Fox Sports 1 has a decent amount of NASCAR coverage when races aren't on Fox. And there's a third hand that is really ready to see what a "sports-free" package would cost, if ESPN, FoxSports et al were moved into their own tier.


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## eudoxia

Ain't gonna happen . I'll bet money FauxNews will never go dark on Dish. They have the most penetration than any media outlet in the country. You can go to any small town and they will always be on a radio station and usually are on the basic packages for all the providers. Go to a diner or bar and it will always be on the TV.

How else are they going to have so much influence?


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## mwdxer

Do I understand that if I add a private channel with the Roku, they are illegal?


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## mwdxer

One new thing the Roku has now, is an app for Firefox that a service that can be received on a Tablet can be cast to the Roku? I wonder if that is legal? There are so many rules and regulations in this day that who knows what is legal and what isn't. Life used to so much simpler. Some claim that recording onto a DVD from a Roku is illegal. It is not encripted so I do not understand that either.


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## tampa8

Private channels are not illegal there are hundreds of them and why would Roku allow it otherwise.
The casting to TV via Roku is an actual Roku addition, there would be no way to do that without Roku itself facilitating it.

I see very little chance of one of the most watched Cable channels, not just the most watched news channel going off of DISH, certainly not for long if at all. 
Btw Fox News in a first beat Network news ratings recently. That was thought to be impossible.


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## tampa8

KyL416 said:


> There's several private apps out there circumventing geoblocks for certain channels that are not allowed to be streamed in the USA for contractual reasons. If you get a blocked in the USA message from the official source like LiveStation or the station's website, or even the official non-private app for that channel, while a private app lets you see it for free, it's one of them.


Most all illegal streams were eliminated sometime ago. Some may slip through. Many like France 24 as an example are not blocked in the U.S.


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## Chihuahua

Barrysb said:


> As the cable ratings for Fox News far out pace any of the other cable news services, I'm figuring there will be a great number of Dish viewers who will not take loosing FNC too kindly. Certainly more push back than what Dish had when CNN was off the channel lineup.


Save for maybe Turner Classic Movies. :righton:


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## Chihuahua

Cable Lover said:


> This is one of the channels that I will really miss if it comes to pass. Here's hoping for a resolution.


I agree.


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## Stewart Vernon

Just got the email/press release and sure enough FOX News and FOX Business are showing a DishHD slate now...

*21st Century Fox Blacks Out Fox News and Business for DISH*

_DISH offers contract extension to continue negotiations, Fox rejects_
_Fox demands unreasonable rates and carriage of other channels_
ENGLEWOOD, Colo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Tonight, 21st Century Fox, Inc. (NASDAQ: FOXA, FOX) blocked DISH customer access to Fox News Channel and Fox Business Network, as the media conglomerate introduced other channels into negotiations despite those channels not being included in the contract up for renewal.

DISH Network L.L.C. is a wholly owned subsidiary of DISH Network Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH).

"It's like we're about to close on a house and the realtor is trying to make us buy a new car as well," said Warren Schlichting, DISH senior vice president of programming. "Fox blacked out two of its news channels, using them as leverage to triple rates on sports and entertainment channels that are not in this contract."

This service disruption comes despite DISH's offer of a short-term contract extension that would preserve the channels as the two parties continue to negotiate.

"DISH has had a productive relationship with Fox for many years," added Schlichting. "We regret the service disruption to our customers, and remain committed to reaching an agreement that promptly returns this content to DISH's programming lineup."

To learn more about these negotiations, visit www.DISHStandsForYou.com.

*About DISH*

DISH Network Corp. (NASDAQ: DISH), through its subsidiary DISH Network L.L.C., provides approximately 14.041 million satellite TV customers, as of Sept. 30, 2014, with the highest-quality programming and technology with the most choices at the best value. Subscribers enjoy a high definition line-up with more than 200 national HD channels, the most international channels, and award-winning HD and DVR technology. DISH Network Corp. is a Fortune 250 company. Visit www.dish.com.

Source: DISH Network Corp.


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## James Long

204 is a video from the CEO Joe Clayton
205 The Blaze replaces Fox News
206 CNBC replaces Fox Business

*50 changes seen 12/21/14 at 12:11am ET (v11)*

*New Uplinks / Mappings - Channels Available*
204 NEWS added to 119° TP 12 (SD Hidden) *AVAILABLE*
204 NEWS added to 61.5° TP 12 (SD MPEG4 Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 119° TP 12 Ch 204
4205 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 129° TP 28 (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 28 Ch 9477
4205 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 72.7° TP 19 (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 28 Ch 9477
4340 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 129° 12s1 (Alaska) (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 28 Ch 9477 - Regional Restriction
4340 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 129° 6s55 (Hawaii) (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 28 Ch 9477 - Regional Restriction
5563 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 129° 12s1 (Alaska) (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 28 Ch 9477 - Regional Restriction
5563 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 129° 6s55 (Hawaii) (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 28 Ch 9477 - Regional Restriction
6908 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 119° TP 6 (SD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* (Limited)
6926 NEWS added to 119° TP 6 (SD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* (Limited)
9477 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 129° TP 28 (HD) *AVAILABLE*
9477 DISH DISH Info Channel added to 72.7° TP 19 (HD) *AVAILABLE*

*Channels Renamed*
205 FXNWS Fox News renamed NEWS Fox News (119° TP 6 SD Instant Order)
205 FXNWS Fox News renamed NEWS Fox News (61.5° TP 15 SD MPEG4 Instant Order)
205 FXNWS Fox News renamed NEWS Fox News (77° TP 26 SD MPEG4 Instant Order)
206 FOXB FOX Business News renamed NEWS FOX Business News (110° TP 8 SD Instant Order)
206 FOXB FOX Business News renamed NEWS FOX Business News (61.5° TP 16 SD MPEG4 Instant Order)
4545 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (110° TP 8 SD Hidden)
4545 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (61.5° TP 16 SD MPEG4 Hidden)
4546 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (129° 16s55 (Hawaii) HD Hidden)
4546 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (129° 9s1 (Alaska) HD Hidden)
4546 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (129° TP 29 HD Hidden)
4546 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (72.7° TP 26 HD Hidden)
4547 FXNWS Fox News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (119° TP 6 SD Hidden)
4547 FXNWS Fox News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (61.5° TP 15 SD MPEG4 Hidden)
4547 FXNWS Fox News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (77° TP 26 SD MPEG4 Hidden)
4548 FXNWS Fox News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (129° 12s1 (Alaska) HD Hidden)
4548 FXNWS Fox News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (129° 6s55 (Hawaii) HD Hidden)
4548 FXNWS Fox News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (129° TP 28 HD Hidden)
4548 FXNWS Fox News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (72.7° TP 19 HD Hidden)
4206 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (206 HD) (129° TP 29 HD Hidden)
4206 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (206 HD) (72.7° TP 26 HD Hidden)
4341 FOXB FOX Business News renamed NEWS (206 HD) (129° 16s55 (Hawaii) HD Hidden)
4341 FOXB FOX Business News renamed NEWS (206 HD) (129° 9s1 (Alaska) HD Hidden)
5527 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (206 HD) (129° 16s55 (Hawaii) HD Hidden)
5527 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (206 HD) (129° 9s1 (Alaska) HD Hidden)
9476 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (206 HD) (129° TP 29 HD Instant Order)
9476 FOXB FOX Business News renamed DISH DISH Info Channel (206 HD) (72.7° TP 26 HD Instant Order)

*Uplinks Removed*
4076 LTD6 removed from 119° TP 12 (SD *TEST* Hidden)
4076 LTD6 removed from 61.5° TP 12 (SD MPEG4 *TEST* Hidden)
6908 FXNWS Fox News removed from 119° TP 6 (SD Hidden)
6926 FXNWS Fox News removed from 119° TP 6 (SD Hidden)
4205 FXNWS (205 HD) Fox News removed from 129° TP 28 (HD Hidden)
4205 FXNWS (205 HD) Fox News removed from 72.7° TP 19 (HD Hidden)
4340 FXNWS (205 HD) Fox News removed from 129° 12s1 (Alaska) (HD Hidden)
4340 FXNWS (205 HD) Fox News removed from 129° 6s55 (Hawaii) (HD Hidden)
5563 FXNWS (205 HD) Fox News removed from 129° 12s1 (Alaska) (HD Hidden)
5563 FXNWS (205 HD) Fox News removed from 129° 6s55 (Hawaii) (HD Hidden)
9477 FXNWS (205 HD) Fox News removed from 129° TP 28 (HD)
9477 FXNWS (205 HD) Fox News removed from 72.7° TP 19 (HD)

9549 Channels


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## Stewart Vernon

If what Dish says in their press release is true... it isn't a surprise, but it is sounding like the recent Turner dispute where Turner was trying to get more money for TNT and TBS by holding the other channels hostage. If FOX is holding their News channels hostage to get more for their Sports and movie channels... I hate that.

On the plus side, I can't imagine this dispute lasting too long. Turner blinked with CNN off the air and seeing their viewers going elsewhere. FOX is usually at the top of the ratings for their News channel... losing all the Dish customer eyes might be painful to them as much as it is painful for Dish to field customer complaints while the channels are dark.

Another plus... I would assume that eventually this will mean more On Demand from FOX on Dish, maybe their FOX Movie channel in HD finally... and perhaps moving FOX Sports 2 to a closer channel number to FOX Sports 1.

I will be surprised if this lasts as long as the Turner channels were down without at least getting to an extension plan like Turner did to push the negotiations into next year.


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## tampa8

I have to admit to being surprised it is off at all. Fox News is one of a few channels you just must have as a carrier. I can't imagine it will be off long, and you make a good point, in the end it should mean more on demand and more HD.


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## Willh

Stewart Vernon said:


> If what Dish says in their press release is true... it isn't a surprise, but it is sounding like the recent Turner dispute where Turner was trying to get more money for TNT and TBS by holding the other channels hostage. If FOX is holding their News channels hostage to get more for their Sports and movie channels... I hate that.
> 
> On the plus side, I can't imagine this dispute lasting too long. Turner blinked with CNN off the air and seeing their viewers going elsewhere. FOX is usually at the top of the ratings for their News channel... losing all the Dish customer eyes might be painful to them as much as it is painful for Dish to field customer complaints while the channels are dark.
> 
> Another plus... I would assume that eventually this will mean more On Demand from FOX on Dish, maybe their FOX Movie channel in HD finally... and perhaps moving FOX Sports 2 to a closer channel number to FOX Sports 1.
> 
> I will be surprised if this lasts as long as the Turner channels were down without at least getting to an extension plan like Turner did to push the negotiations into next year.


also don't forget about the digital streaming rights to the Fox owned channels, we don't have access to the FXXNow and classic Simpsons episodes we want to see these classic episodes for the glory days of the Simpsons aka the 90s era episodes.

plus i can see as part of the new agreement between Fox and Dish for Fox News and Fox Business when they do reach an agreement, they also drop all legal action between each other over some Hopper features and put all the bad blood in the past, Dish needs Fox more then Fox needs Dish at this point.


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## JTG

I am tired of this brinksmanship game. Dishnetwork has been my TV provider for right at 20 years. I've been a loyal subscriber who has sent several friends their way over the years.
In my opinion their "Pointing the finger game" they play _every_ time this happens is childish and bad for business. I fail to see how FOX and Dish cannot understand their co-dependancy, and solve these contractual issues a year or two before they have to use the nuclear option. It is absurd.
Changing providers, which they want us to believe is "no solution" appears to be the only way to get the programming they won't provide us.
Changing providers is a real pain in the behind, but tomorrow, for the first time in 20 years, I am going to start researching my options. I know a couple of friends have cable and another guy has had Direct TV for as long as I've had Dish.
Perhaps I'll visit them tomorrow afternoon.
Please wake up and smell the money, Dish. As the world is becoming increasingly wired and programming options grow your customer base is going to become empowered with options for the purchase of programming.
Competiton, in other words.
Do the right thing, it is in your best interest. Your recent actions demonstrate a myopic vision of the future, and won't help you maintain the core foundation of customers you are going to need as the programming options grow. Surely you see that?


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## James Long

JTG said:


> Changing providers, which they want us to believe is "no solution" appears to be the only way to get the programming they won't provide us.


I do not know of a provider who has not not lost a channel at some point. Most providers have had outages that lasted months. Not just DISH ... and if none of DISH's disputes over the past 20 years have pushed you out the door there is no need to panic today.

I do not expect this outage to last long. A couple of days ... maybe a week. Perhaps people can live without the news for a week (or try another channel or the FoxNews.com website).

Don't panic.


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## mwdxer

Well, they are gone...


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## Stewart Vernon

JTG, you are playing the game FOX wants you to play here... FOX wants you to blame Dish as the evil empire and forget that FOX is just as evil of an empire. And, now, I'm not making a political statement... I'm saying FOX is every bit the big corporation that Dish is... FOX is bigger... way bigger... so if there is a bully in this scenario it would be FOX, and not Dish.

Each company get blame in these disputes... because they are codependent... but when you look into the switching providers that FOX says you should do to get your channels... that's FOX bullying you too. If you stick it out with Dish, FOX will come back to the table.

Switching to DirecTV or cable over a dispute like this just further empowers FOX the next time... and if you're with DirecTV or cable when it happens, what will you do then? Every time they get a bunch of viewers in an uproar it gives them fuel for the next negotiation.


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## Cable Lover

At least we get "The Blaze" back for a while. I still hope FOX isn't gone for long.


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## khearrean

Just yesterday, I received an e-mail response from Dish in answer to my complaint about all of this. And just yesterday, it said the negotiations were ongoing & not to expect to see any disruption for awhile, if at all! Well, today I find it has been dropped. So today, Dish will find out that I don't threaten & keep my promises. I have been with Dish 20 years & have been as loyal as anyone else. If they don't take complaints like mine seriously when I know they have received many others, then they don't care about me! I even told them that I didn't mind a slight increase if it meant that I keep the only news source I watch. (And no, I do not blame this on Fox)! So today, they lose a loyal customer, of which I'm sure they don't care!

Ken


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## Paul Secic

James Long said:


> I do not know of a provider who has not not lost a channel at some point. Most providers have had outages that lasted months. Not just DISH ... and if none of DISH's disputes over the past 20 years have pushed you out the door there is no need to panic today.
> 
> I do not expect this outage to last long. A couple of days ... maybe a week. Perhaps people can live without the news for a week (or try another channel or the FoxNews.com website).
> 
> Don't panic.


I hardly watch my locals. It's mostly judges shows ETC.


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## jamieh1

Ive been with Directv since 1996, ive seen a few channel disputes over the years, and most of the time channels come back in a few days or a week or two.
My local cable company Suddenlink dropped the 20+ Viacom channels on Sept 30th and they have not returned and it does not look like they will. Suddenlink replaced the channels with new channels. The tv subscription prices are getting way out of hand. $3-$5 increases add up fast. I think providers need to stand up to them to try to get a lower price.


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## JTG

The prices are getting out of hand.
I believe it is good to look around every now and then and see what has changed in your area regarding service providers. I am certain I am not the only Dish Customer who has been motivated to do that research by this most recent run of the brinksmanship follies.
As an example, my Mother lives in a internet limbo area, she had 2 options for internet, dial-up or hughesnet. She tried hughesnet and couldn't stand it. She found Hughes to be about the worst service and least bang for the buck you can imagine, and their customer service was abbhorrent.
Last Spring I found a small Wi-fi provider that has pushed service in her area, lightning fast service and about half the price.Excellent customer service.
She is tickled, told me that the call she made to shut hughesnet down was one of the best phone calls she'd ever made.
I will do the same research for myself now, looking at TV options. I understand the positions of both compaines on this deal, and know how these games are played. When I called last night to voice my disappointment with Dish, I got the standard, "We are trying to hold your costs down". I repsonded with I certainly appreciate that, however I have yet to see Dish go through one of these cycles and then lower my rates because the did so well at the bargaining table.


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## kkimmel

As a DISH subscriber I am very disappointed with your decision to pull your programming. It appears that you are more interested in extortion and leverage for financial gain than negotiating for a reasonable coverage contract. I do believe most of DISH's claims of the channel tying and substantial carriage price increase request on your part and as a reasonable person support their efforts not to be coerced. You profess to be the conservative media outlet, but are demonstrating your true colors. Goodbye FOX. I will look for other outlets for news that support my beliefs.


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## tsmacro

Hopefully this has happened enough times that people are finally getting wise to the fact that changing providers just to "follow" a channel is basically telling the channel you're willing to accept any increase they're asking for. As I've stated before any channel that resorts to these tactics is dead to me while they're gone from my chosen provider. I've got a DVR full of stuff to watch, hundreds of other channels to chose from and the internet to keep me busy, easy enough not to care about any channel that choses not to be available through my television provider.


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## lparsons21

tsmacro, I'm with you!! 

I've got so much stuff to watch I could not watch anything new and still not be caught up until well after the new year.


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## inkahauts

tampa8 said:


> I have to admit to being surprised it is off at all. Fox News is one of a few channels you just must have as a carrier. I can't imagine it will be off long, and you make a good point, in the end it should mean more on demand and more HD.


See that is the thing. There are no must carry single style channels in the big scheme because so many people watch different channels.

ESPN is one of the few that are closest.

But this deal seems to be tied to what I just said. FOX wants several of its different content channels included so that it is a more potent thing to deal with every time a contract is up. Losing just FOX news is not a big deal. Losing all FOX channels would be much larger.

This is why Disney is never off the air. To many different channels in one contract. 
It's also why Viacom had a big problem when DIRECTV dropped them. And turner with dish. It's a double sided coin but the more channels in a package the more people might complain to both and put pressure on both. Especially if sports is involved. You can't realistically say well they can download the game after this is settled. You can for a tv series. Sports is a big thing to have involved in this.


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## tsmacro

I will say that Fox News does have the kind of viewers that do call and complain FWIW.


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## cliburn

Switching to DirecTV or cable over a dispute like this just further empowers FOX the next time... and if you're with DirecTV or cable when it happens, what will you do then? Every time they get a bunch of viewers in an uproar it gives them fuel for the next negotiation.

I disagree... not switching empowers Dish to continue to do this.... as a customer, I am SICK of it.


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## James Long

FoxNews is very available through their website ... sure, people can't just sit down and watch TV to see their favorite pundits. But that source of news is not eliminated.


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## Jim5506

Just tweeted FoxNews to stop jacking Dish subs around.

We do not need to pay more for sports just to see their news programs.


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## Stewart Vernon

This too shall pass. At some point there will be a new contract, these channels will be back, your bill and my bill will increase as a result, and you'll ask "why did my bill go up" even as you demand "Dish better not lose my favorite channel"...


----------



## tsmacro

cliburn said:


> Switching to DirecTV or cable over a dispute like this just further empowers FOX the next time... and if you're with DirecTV or cable when it happens, what will you do then? Every time they get a bunch of viewers in an uproar it gives them fuel for the next negotiation.
> 
> I disagree... not switching empowers Dish to continue to do this.... as a customer, I am SICK of it.


Empowers Dish to do what exactly? Dish offered to keep Fox News and Business on the air while they continue to negotiate, Fox refused, so Dish no longer has permission to carry their signal, so exactly what should've Dish done about it? Eventually Dish will agree to pay more money it's just a matter of how much more and how long it'll take to get there. And when that deal is done Fox will move on to it's next provider to try to extort and tell Directv customers, Comcast customers, Time Warner customers or whoever is next to demand that they keep Fox News and pay their increased fee (of course they'll conveniently leave out the part about increasing your bill when urging you to switch providers to follow them) or else.


----------



## Chihuahua

This could get very ugly.


----------



## nmstough

James Long said:


> FoxNews is very available through their website ... sure, people can't just sit down and watch TV to see their favorite pundits. But that source of news is not eliminated.


I don't see how to get this channel through their website. If you go to "watch TV" you get a page where you have to log into your provider and Dish isn't listed.

This is terrible news. I just had Dish installed basically only because I wanted to watch Foxnews. OTA would have been sufficient otherwise. Indeed this is the most important of the premium channels. Why don't they simply charge a specific price for Foxnews and for a lot of other channels like CNN, etc. and let the viewer decide? My guess is that Foxnews will destroy the competition in that regard.


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## Stewart Vernon

nmstough said:


> I don't see how to get this channel through their website. If you go to "watch TV" you get a page where you have to log into your provider and Dish isn't listed.
> 
> This is terrible news. I just had Dish installed basically only because I wanted to watch Foxnews. OTA would have been sufficient otherwise. Indeed this is the most important of the premium channels. Why don't they simply charge a specific price for Foxnews and for a lot of other channels like CNN, etc. and let the viewer decide? My guess is that Foxnews will destroy the competition in that regard.


The news itself is available on the FOX News Web site... some video even... just the live streaming isn't available without the contract with Dish.

Meanwhile... You ask why the channel isn't available on its own? And you say FOX would "destroy the competition"... well, FOX disagrees with you because they want to be in a tier guaranteed to be in a lot of Dish customers homes. FOX doesn't want to be an a la carte channel or they would be. IF FOX thought they could command a premium as a standalone option, you can bet they would do that and Dish would be happy to oblige them. But FOX, and CNN, and eventually MSNBC when that contract comes due, want to be in a tier... and they want to be paid more every time their contract is up for renewal.


----------



## TechnoCat

Chihuahua said:


> This could get very ugly.


I don't think so. Fox lied in that article. I'm guessing (no slur here) that you don't generally follow business releases closely. There are "tells" in there; follow the link and read it carefully, and you'll see. For example, the "five years" on contracts that are typically longer than that. 

But the main reason it won't get ugly is, viewers don't care. FNC is on the 3rd tier (of roughly 5) that Dish offers. It's not a 'basic' or near-basic channel. I neither have nor watch FNC, but have noticed that the world has two chunks of news-channel viewers: leftists who can't handle real science or debate, and therefore label everyone they disagree with a 'denier' or a noun-'ist', and the adults-in-the-room. The former watch MSNBC or CNN and are likely to view this as evil-vs-evil but with Dish being more evil for not appeasing the terrorism of Fox (not-withstanding the left's addiction to draconian sensitivity-speech laws - isn't that interesting?), while the latter - the FNC viewers (and a quick search suggests that's more people than MSNBC + CNN, but again, the left doesn't care about reality - people who believe the ratings would be "news deniers" I assume), are more likely to view the outage as symptomatic of hardball business, viewingCharlie Ergen vs Rupert Murdoch / News Corp as a good-guys vs evil overlords battle to keep prices down.

So Dish can take the hit for a while; the viewers who care about Fox News are smarter than the average viewer and will stick with Dish for the larger reasons. Fox will have to back off, because Dish is a top-five affiliate. (That's media-speak for "provides subscribers" - Comcast is probably #1.) Losing Dish probably lops 10% off Fox affiliate revenues - and 10% is HUGE. You may think of it as the difference between a double- and a triple-shot mocha, but it's huge money in businesses with low margins and no flexibility. Meanwhile, losing Fox doesn't cost Dish anything initially, and over the long term may be a win as short-term subscriber losses are countered by long-term wins on their lower rates.

As I said, I don't watch FNC, so I don't care. I do have Dish, but actually for entertainment. Funny thing; I never find that watching ANY news program leaves me relaxed. :smoking:


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## TechnoCat

Stewart Vernon said:


> FOX doesn't want to be an a la carte channel or they would be. IF FOX thought they could command a premium as a standalone option, you can bet they would do that and Dish would be happy to oblige them. But FOX, and CNN, and eventually MSNBC when that contract comes due, want to be in a tier... and they want to be paid more every time their contract is up for renewal.


Stewart, to clarify... you changed your meaning mid-paragraph. I suspect Fox believes FNC would be an a la carte. It's their _weaker_ channels (most of the rest, judging from the ratings) that they're trying to monetize by piggybacking on the demand for FNC. As I read it, the problem in this case wasn't FNC but the tethering of the costs into bundles.

An example: FNC is a higher-level package; CNN and MSNBC are in the "mostly home shopping channels" levels, while FNC doesn't start until the middle tier.


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## James Long

TechnoCat said:


> Stewart, to clarify... you changed your meaning mid-paragraph. I suspect Fox believes FNC would be an a la carte. It's their _weaker_ channels (most of the rest, judging from the ratings) that they're trying to monetize by piggybacking on the demand for FNC. As I read it, the problem in this case wasn't FNC but the tethering of the costs into bundles.
> 
> An example: FNC is a higher-level package; CNN and MSNBC are in the "mostly home shopping channels" levels, while FNC doesn't start until the middle tier.


Do not forget the dispute a few years ago where Fox sued DISH over the placement of Fox News. The contract language was something along the lines of "our most popular programming package". Fox thought they were getting the lowest tier providing the most viewership. Fox wants Fox News Channel in as many homes as possible ... not only the homes that would willingly subscribe a la carte to buy FNC separate from other channels ... but homes that never watch FNC or never watch the news. That is the way channels make the more money ... by charging for subscribers who never watch.

BTW: Fox News is in DISH's lowest tier (AT120):
200 CNN
202 Headline News
205 Fox News Channel
208 CNBC
209 MSNBC
210 CSPAN
211 CSPAN 2

AT200 adds 206 Fox Business Network and 215 Al Jazeera America. AT250 adds 212 TheBlaze.


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## mwdxer

I am not a fan of Fox News, but I know some that are. Just like I missed TCM, but others didn't. Dish tries to carry an assortment of channels that will please most viewers out there. Even with the loss of a channel here and there for short periods, we still have a ton of programming in the packages. Often when we do lose a channel, then I may look at something else for that time. A friend who loved CNN for news, when it was missing he got to like MSNBC. Switching does not solve the issues, unless you want to constantly switch when a provider loses a channel. That would be too nerve racking for me. I am used to Dish. I do not want to start over with another provider. Plus there are no providers out there that carry several channels I get from Dish including the Super Stations. Also if I did switch, what would I do with all of the equipment I own? It is useless for anything else. Even the dishes are too small for FTA. These contract issues are generally always solved. There have been a few like Smithonian Channel. I did miss that, but I now get it on the Roku for free.


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## inkahauts

TechnoCat said:


> I don't think so. Fox lied in that article. I'm guessing (no slur here) that you don't generally follow business releases closely. There are "tells" in there; follow the link and read it carefully, and you'll see. For example, the "five years" on contracts that are typically longer than that.
> 
> But the main reason it won't get ugly is, viewers don't care. FNC is on the 3rd tier (of roughly 5) that Dish offers. It's not a 'basic' or near-basic channel. I neither have nor watch FNC, but have noticed that the world has two chunks of news-channel viewers: leftists who can't handle real science or debate, and therefore label everyone they disagree with a 'denier' or a noun-'ist', and the adults-in-the-room. The former watch MSNBC or CNN and are likely to view this as evil-vs-evil but with Dish being more evil for not appeasing the terrorism of Fox (not-withstanding the left's addiction to draconian sensitivity-speech laws - isn't that interesting?), while the latter - the FNC viewers (and a quick search suggests that's more people than MSNBC + CNN, but again, the left doesn't care about reality - people who believe the ratings would be "news deniers" I assume), are more likely to view the outage as symptomatic of hardball business, viewingCharlie Ergen vs Rupert Murdoch / News Corp as a good-guys vs evil overlords battle to keep prices down.
> 
> So Dish can take the hit for a while; the viewers who care about Fox News are smarter than the average viewer and will stick with Dish for the larger reasons. Fox will have to back off, because Dish is a top-five affiliate. (That's media-speak for "provides subscribers" - Comcast is probably #1.) Losing Dish probably lops 10% off Fox affiliate revenues - and 10% is HUGE. You may think of it as the difference between a double- and a triple-shot mocha, but it's huge money in businesses with low margins and no flexibility. Meanwhile, losing Fox doesn't cost Dish anything initially, and over the long term may be a win as short-term subscriber losses are countered by long-term wins on their lower rates.
> 
> As I said, I don't watch FNC, so I don't care. I do have Dish, but actually for entertainment. Funny thing; I never find that watching ANY news program leaves me relaxed. :smoking:


I am going to assume you are being mostly sarcastic about all that..

To think that fox is lying because he talked of five year contracts? He meant for the last five years when he has been doing contracts IMHO. And many are not to long like they used to be, the trend is to make them shorter and shorter really. And companies like fox are in negotiations a LOT with the same companies for different channels almost yearly it seems, which in part is why they are trying to get them all bundled together some.

I think neither side has flat out lied, but twisted everything that is going on...

When I read between the lines I see,,,,

Fox is fine leaving the channels up while they continue to negotiate, but they are pushing to get the value they have wanted for ages for Fox Sports 1 and 2, and to get them to take tveverywhere for all services.

Dish is as usual, cutting the channels so it doesn't have to pay for a little while to save a few bucks (pretty much close to new standard operating procedure for them except for anything that is really big) at the expense of the customer, but really doesn't want to pay more for the sports channels (I agree, wait till the contract is up) and wants OTT options that Fox doesn't want to give.


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## tsmacro

inkahauts said:


> I.
> 
> I think neither side has flat out lied, but twisted everything that is going on...
> 
> When I read between the lines I see,,,,
> 
> Fox is fine leaving the channels up while they continue to negotiate, but they are pushing to get the value they have wanted for ages for Fox Sports 1 and 2, and to get them to take tveverywhere for all services.
> 
> Dish is as usual, cutting the channels so it doesn't have to pay for a little while to save a few bucks (pretty much close to new standard operating procedure for them except for anything that is really big) at the expense of the customer, but really doesn't want to pay more for the sports channels (I agree, wait till the contract is up) and wants OTT options that Fox doesn't want to give.


Since Dish specifically said they offered to keep the channels on while they continued to negotiate and Fox refused it doesn't appear Fox thinks it's "fine" leaving the channels up. Two reasons probably, firstly if they keep them up during negotiation they keep getting paid at the old contract rate and they don't want to set that precedent, after all the whole point is to get more money not the same amount. Secondly I'm sure Fox knows that FN has the kind of fans of their channel that will call and complain and make noise so they have no problem withholding the rebroadcast rights for a while and let Dish have to deal with the annoyed FN fans and use that for leverage. Of course I do find it rather comical in the Fox press release that Fox's "proof" that Dish lied about Fox pulling the channels is that they got turned off at 11:50 rather than 11:59, yeah um ok sure, guess you got 'em, real smoking gun there. :sure: Ok let's get real here, I think we all know that it's Dish in it's uplink center that "throws the switch" that removes the programming from Dish's subscribers but that switch gets thrown because Fox refused to extend permission to broadcast their channels beyond the end of the contract while they negotiated.


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## Jaspear

tsmacro said:


> Secondly I'm sure Fox knows that FN has the kind of fans of their channel that will call and complain and make noise so they have no problem withholding the rebroadcast rights for a while and let Dish have to deal with the annoyed FN fans and use that for leverage.


Not only noise, but money as well in the form of credits given to mollify the noisemakers. For some short period of time, yanking the channels is a win for Fox.


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## tommiet

No biggie for me.... Bye...Bye Fox!


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## TechnoCat

James Long said:


> BTW: Fox News is in DISH's lowest tier (AT120):
> 200 CNN
> 202 Headline News
> 205 Fox News Channel
> 208 CNBC
> 209 MSNBC
> 210 CSPAN
> 211 CSPAN 2
> 
> AT200 adds 206 Fox Business Network and 215 Al Jazeera America. AT250 adds 212 TheBlaze.


Those aren't their lowest tiers. They have "Welcome Pack", "Smart Pack" and "Dish America" below those. I have "Dish America", from a contract way back when.


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## tampa8

I'd say those are considered the lowest tiers. Welcome pack and Smart pack are packages that do not allow the full array of DISH services. I don't believe Fox is in any of the Dish America packages.


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## nmetro

The is a price point that the media giants are quickly approaching. As they keep raising prices fro OTA and cable channels, more and more subscribers are throwing their hands up in disgust. FOX wants more money for their cable, sports and FOX owned broadcasting properties. In addition to FOX News and FOX Business. National Geographic/National Geographic Wild have become glorified reality channels FX, FXX, are no different than any other cable channels; limited movies, eight hour programming blocks of reruns, and infomercials late at night. FOX Sports 1 & 2 are not as robust as their equivalents in the UK, Australia or New Zealand. Of all the FOX sports properties, FOX Soccer Plus offers the most varied in sports programming (Rugby, Soccer, and Australian Rules Football; most times live).

So, if FOX wants more money, then offer more different kinds of sports, and provide the HD feed of FXM. And of course, provide more varied programming, than what is offered everywhere else. As for FOX News and Fox Business, I have alternatives fro both; just like I had alternatives for CNN. I watch news to get news, not someone's interpretation of the news. FOX News, MSNBC, and CNN all fail in that regard. Al Jazeera America and internet feeds of the BBC, CBC, and ABC (Australia) doe better coverage of the news (including this country), than the domestic "news" networks.


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## mwdxer

One side note to this is for Fox to take away these channels just before Christmas is really tacky. They could have least waited until after the first of the year.


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## tsmacro

I wonder if any of the Fox News fans have stumbled across NewsMax on 223 yet? They'd probably find it more agreeable to their taste than CNN, MSNBC or Al-Jazera I'd imagine.


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## BobCulp

Why can't any provider renew contracts three months before current contracts expire? Better yet, have all channels expire at the same time.


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## Stewart Vernon

TechnoCat said:


> Stewart, to clarify... you changed your meaning mid-paragraph. I suspect Fox believes FNC would be an a la carte. It's their _weaker_ channels (most of the rest, judging from the ratings) that they're trying to monetize by piggybacking on the demand for FNC. As I read it, the problem in this case wasn't FNC but the tethering of the costs into bundles.


I didn't change my meaning... I just didn't cover all the angles.

In a "perfect world" FOX would rather FOX News be a la carte and have most of the viewers paying them a much higher fee for their product. Most channels would like this, but only the ones who really feel like they "could" do it are even tempted in the current market. BUT, FOX has crunched the numbers and they know they make far more money being in a lower tier on Dish which touches most of Dish subscribers than they would be a la carte only with their targeted viewers paying a higher per-viewer fee.

So... stuck with the tiered model, FOX leverages their less-popular channels and content by the demand for their news channel. They say "you have to pay us more for these IF you want the big channel"... and that's what gets us to where we are now.


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## Stewart Vernon

BobCulp said:


> Why can't any provider renew contracts three months before current contracts expire? Better yet, have all channels expire at the same time.


They try to renew contracts in advance... but there's no pressure until the last week... and the channel who wants more money will play hardball until the last minute too. Negotiation takes both sides.

Having all channels expire at the same time would be HORRIBLE for Dish... potentially having everything gone the same day? Having to negotiate with multiple parties at the same time?

Now.. IF you're strictly meaning on a per-network basis... where all FOX were up at the same time, well FOX would like that. Dish might even like that... but channels are launched at various times of the year and FOX isn't going to wait for a contract to be up before launching a channel they want to debut... so contracts for new channels are on a different time-table from older ones... but sometimes they try and get everything under an umbrella over time.


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## SayWhat?

I'd be more interested to see takedowns banned by law, or at least require both side to agree. Impose a back penalty on one or both sides to the contract date that would increase daily until settlement.

Maybe even consider a way to do a sweetheart incentive for settling in advance of the contract date like some construction projects have.


----------



## Jim5506

SayWhat? said:


> I'd be more interested to see takedowns banned by law, or at least require both side to agree. Impose a back penalty on one or both sides to the contract date that would increase daily until settlement.
> 
> Maybe even consider a way to do a sweetheart incentive for settling in advance of the contract date like some construction projects have.


Banning takedowns removes the only tool that providers have to pressure distributors.

If I have a product on Dish and can't take it down because the contract has expired, then Dish has a perpetual license to my programming with no negotiation and no price increases in sight.

The expiration of a contract should also be the automatic termination of the service - keeping programs up is a good faith gesture by the provider.


----------



## James Long

TechnoCat said:


> Those aren't their lowest tiers. They have "Welcome Pack", "Smart Pack" and "Dish America" below those. I have "Dish America", from a contract way back when.


Those are not tiers ... those are special packages. Tiers work their way up ... all channels from the tier below plus a few more channels makes a tier. All of the channels from those special packages are not in AT120.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

SayWhat? said:


> I'd be more interested to see takedowns banned by law, or at least require both side to agree. Impose a back penalty on one or both sides to the contract date that would increase daily until settlement.
> 
> Maybe even consider a way to do a sweetheart incentive for settling in advance of the contract date like some construction projects have.


Law making would be a horrible idea here. You don't want the law intruding on personal or business contracts in the manner you suggest.

Meanwhile, companies could themselves make a contract that contains "sweetheart" deals for early renewal... but neither side would agree to such a thing because they want each negotiation to be a new thing. Dish wants a better deal next time as does the channel/content provider. Neither side would want a previous agreement to tie them into any kind of kickback deal for early renewal.


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## Stewart Vernon

_Once again, please stay on topic and stay off politics. If you like the channel that's fine, if you don't like the channel that's also fine... but this thread is purely about a contract dispute for carriage between FOX and DISH. It isn't a political thread. More posts have been removed, and further transgressions will result in infractions or thread bans. Keep it civil, and on topic. Thanks!_


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## James Long

How would such a law handle the end of a contract ... such as when DISH decided to no longer carry Smithsonian? Or CNBC World? Write the law poorly and a channel could never be dropped. "Once carried always carried" is not a good idea.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

TechnoCat said:


> I don't think so. Fox lied in that article. I'm guessing (no slur here) that you don't generally follow business releases closely. There are "tells" in there; follow the link and read it carefully, and you'll see. For example, the "five years" on contracts that are typically longer than that.
> 
> But the main reason it won't get ugly is, viewers don't care. FNC is on the 3rd tier (of roughly 5) that Dish offers. It's not a 'basic' or near-basic channel. I neither have nor watch FNC, but have noticed that the world has two chunks of news-channel viewers: leftists who can't handle real science or debate, and therefore label everyone they disagree with a 'denier' or a noun-'ist', and the adults-in-the-room. The former watch MSNBC or CNN and are likely to view this as evil-vs-evil but with Dish being more evil for not appeasing the terrorism of Fox (not-withstanding the left's addiction to draconian sensitivity-speech laws - isn't that interesting?), while the latter - the FNC viewers (and a quick search suggests that's more people than MSNBC + CNN, but again, the left doesn't care about reality - people who believe the ratings would be "news deniers" I assume), are more likely to view the outage as symptomatic of hardball business, viewingCharlie Ergen vs Rupert Murdoch / News Corp as a good-guys vs evil overlords battle to keep prices down.
> 
> So Dish can take the hit for a while; the viewers who care about Fox News are smarter than the average viewer and will stick with Dish for the larger reasons. Fox will have to back off, because Dish is a top-five affiliate. (That's media-speak for "provides subscribers" - Comcast is probably #1.) Losing Dish probably lops 10% off Fox affiliate revenues - and 10% is HUGE. You may think of it as the difference between a double- and a triple-shot mocha, but it's huge money in businesses with low margins and no flexibility. Meanwhile, losing Fox doesn't cost Dish anything initially, and over the long term may be a win as short-term subscriber losses are countered by long-term wins on their lower rates.
> 
> As I said, I don't watch FNC, so I don't care. I do have Dish, but actually for entertainment. Funny thing; I never find that watching ANY news program leaves me relaxed. :smoking:


Fox had more viewers in Primetime in November than ESPN. They were the top Cable Network for Primetime in the November Sweeps. Obviously not a 3rd tier station when looks at what people actually watch.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

Stewart Vernon said:


> In a "perfect world" FOX would rather FOX News be a la carte and have most of the viewers paying them a much higher fee for their product. Most channels would like this, but only the ones who really feel like they "could" do it are even tempted in the current market. BUT, FOX has crunched the numbers and they know they make far more money being in a lower tier on Dish which touches most of Dish subscribers than they would be a la carte only with their targeted viewers paying a higher per-viewer fee.
> 
> So... stuck with the tiered model, FOX leverages their less-popular channels and content by the demand for their news channel. They say "you have to pay us more for these IF you want the big channel"... and that's what gets us to where we are now.


That is ridiculous. There are NO channels currently offered in Basic Packages that would prefer to be a la carte, as they all know that is a losing proposition. And 90% of the channels would disappear, while you would end paying the same amount for 10 channels that you used to pay for 500.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

tsmacro said:


> Empowers Dish to do what exactly? Dish offered to keep Fox News and Business on the air while they continue to negotiate, Fox refused, so Dish no longer has permission to carry their signal, so exactly what should've Dish done about it? Eventually Dish will agree to pay more money it's just a matter of how much more and how long it'll take to get there. And when that deal is done Fox will move on to it's next provider to try to extort and tell Directv customers, Comcast customers, Time Warner customers or whoever is next to demand that they keep Fox News and pay their increased fee (of course they'll conveniently leave out the part about increasing your bill when urging you to switch providers to follow them) or else.


Incorrect Again. Check your facts.

Fox noted last Monday that they did not expect the channel to go dark if an impasse happened.

Dish pulled the signal at 11:50PM. The contract did not expire until 11:59PM.

Dish pulled the programming on their on at 11:50P. That is well documented fact - even though Dish is saying differently.

Now, did they have to pull it at 11:59P? Based on the comments earlier in the week, that would seem to be no.

Fox also notes this is the first time Fox News has EVER been pulled from a System.

Dish also pulled Time Warner product early as well.

So who do you believe?

The System that has lost Time Warner, CBS, Fox and Capital Broadcasting in the last 30 days - and has been responsible for over 50% of the channel blackouts over the past 2 years...

Or the Channel that has never been pulled off a MVPD before - and we know for a fact Dish lied as they did pull them before they had to.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

Stewart Vernon said:


> On the plus side, I can't imagine this dispute lasting too long. Turner blinked with CNN off the air and seeing their viewers going elsewhere. FOX is usually at the top of the ratings for their News channel... losing all the Dish customer eyes might be painful to them as much as it is painful for Dish to field customer complaints while the channels are dark.


Got to love Mods that hold their stance, even when it is disproven with Facts.

CNN had one of their biggest increases in the November Sweeps. I have posted the link previously.

Turner did not blink with CNN seeing viewers going elsewhere. They saw major increases.

Now, I guess the new motto is let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story.....


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

JTG said:


> I am tired of this brinksmanship game. Dishnetwork has been my TV provider for right at 20 years. I've been a loyal subscriber who has sent several friends their way over the years.
> In my opinion their "Pointing the finger game" they play _every_ time this happens is childish and bad for business. I fail to see how FOX and Dish cannot understand their co-dependancy, and solve these contractual issues a year or two before they have to use the nuclear option. It is absurd.
> Changing providers, which they want us to believe is "no solution" appears to be the only way to get the programming they won't provide us.
> Changing providers is a real pain in the behind, but tomorrow, for the first time in 20 years, I am going to start researching my options. I know a couple of friends have cable and another guy has had Direct TV for as long as I've had Dish.
> Perhaps I'll visit them tomorrow afternoon.
> Please wake up and smell the money, Dish. As the world is becoming increasingly wired and programming options grow your customer base is going to become empowered with options for the purchase of programming.
> Competiton, in other words.
> Do the right thing, it is in your best interest. Your recent actions demonstrate a myopic vision of the future, and won't help you maintain the core foundation of customers you are going to need as the programming options grow. Surely you see that?


While those tell you not to switch providers, just look at the facts.

What Company has lost programming with Blackouts over the past 90 days?

Dish
1) Many Turner Channels
2) CBS (local but agreement affected locals nationwide)
3) Fox News / Fox Business
4) Capitol Broadcasting (Local - 2 Markets - Raleigh and Wilmington, NC )

DirecTV
1) Journal (Local 8 markets - Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Nashville, Omaha, Tucson, Fort Myers, FL Green Bay, WI Lansing, MI)

While Directv is negotiating currently with ABC (and has been for 3 months), no one expects it to go dark. ABC negotiated with Dish for 5 months.

And of course Dish has been responsible for over 50% of the blackouts over the past 2 years. Add in Time Warner and you have just about all the blackouts. Think about that. Over 50% of the Blackouts and Dish only represents about 15% of Subs in the Nation.

So get used to seeing blackouts with Dish.

If you can live with that stay, if not, find another provider.

Charlie Ergen - Q3 2014
"Yes, we'd lose some customers, but we'd save a big, big, big check from a cash flow perspective," Ergen said.


----------



## eudoxia

This is awesome seeing all the attention to this topic...
I thought it would never happen, but was proven wrong.. :righton:


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## lparsons21

For most channels it wouldn't be. But Fox News viewers are a passionate and vociferous bunch! 

Personally this isn't an issue for me as I mostly read the news in various places around the 'net or listen to SiriusXM radio. The format of most of the 24/7 news channels of slim hard news followed by lots of opinions just doesn't cut it for me. From my POV, the local news stations do a better job.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Got to love Mods that hold their stance, even when it is disproven with Facts.
> 
> CNN had one of their biggest increases in the November Sweeps. I have posted the link previously.
> 
> Turner did not blink with CNN seeing viewers going elsewhere. They saw major increases.
> 
> Now, I guess the new motto is let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story.....


If Turner didn't blink, why are their channels back on Dish?

If Dish had blinked, then there would be a new contract... If Turn had NOT blinked, then the channels would still be off Dish.

The fact that the Turner channels are back and Turner came back with an agreement to extend everything until sometime next year is clearly a blink by Turner. It's the very definition of a blink in a negotiation.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

Stewart Vernon said:


> If Turner didn't blink, why are their channels back on Dish?
> 
> If Dish had blinked, then there would be a new contract... If Turn had NOT blinked, then the channels would still be off Dish.
> 
> The fact that the Turner channels are back and Turner came back with an agreement to extend everything until sometime next year is clearly a blink by Turner. It's the very definition of a blink in a negotiation.


Charlie said on the Q3 Conference call he would be ok without Turner - AND without Turner, he would not raise rates next year (2015).

Charlie blinked because he knew he could not last without TBS and TNT which were about to come down.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Charlie said on the Q3 Conference call he would be ok without Turner - AND without Turner, he would not raise rates next year (2015).
> 
> Charlie blinked because he knew he could not last without TBS and TNT which were about to come down.


But that makes literally no sense. If Dish is the one who blinked, then there would be a new contract. There is no new Turner contract. Instead Turner agreed to an extension into next year so that their channels could be back on Dish.

Dish has lost nothing at this point... Turner, however, proved that they wanted their channels on more than they were willing to leave them off while asking for more money from Dish.


----------



## tigerwillow1

I personally don't care who blinks. All I know is if the prices keep going up the program providers will be getting a lot of money per viewer, multiplied by hardly any viewers. Every time a distributor like Dish gives in to the increases they're moving a little bit closer to their own extinction. Giving in provides short term gain vs. long term survival, which of course seems to be our national way of doing almost everything.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Dish pulled the signal at 11:50PM. The contract did not expire until 11:59PM.


If DISH took down the channel at 12:10AM Fox could have sued DISH for carrying the channel without permission. When permission to carry a channel expires the channel comes down. Fox may claim that they would have let DISH continue to carry the channel ... but without a contract it is risky. Especially against a multi-billion dollar company who has sued DISH in the past over their misunderstanding of their contract with DISH.

Perhaps Fox should sue DISH for failure to carry the channels until 11:59PM. 
Arguing over 9 minutes is petty.


----------



## TechnoCat

BobCulp said:


> Why can't any provider renew contracts three months before current contracts expire? Better yet, have all channels expire at the same time.


Because the PMs who make the deals are expected not to leave any money on the table. If a deal is easy and friendly, it's assumed to have not pushed the other side far enough. Management practices don't have the incentives quite right. It's a bit like that one programmer on the team who writes poor code, but stays late and, in the emergency, fixes a critical bug and gets rewarded for it... even though the bug was in his code.


----------



## TechnoCat

James Long said:


> Those are not tiers ... those are special packages. Tiers work their way up ... all channels from the tier below plus a few more channels makes a tier. All of the channels from those special packages are not in AT120.


I hear you, but they don't seem to be positioning them that way. They have about six different package levels, with increasing prices and with corresponding names indicating greater choice. But this may be a case of me not having the full vocabulary.

Is there a preferred term that would cover the rungs from the minimalist Dish package up through America to AT120 and beyond?

(BTW, and OT, my Dish America actually has far more in it than the specs. We got grandfathered into a package, pre-move, a long time ago. I'm not sure how they manage it, but it doesn't map to any of the current packages.)


----------



## fmaclean1

We love both Dish (have been subscribers since 2000), and Fox News, and Fox Business. We plan to stay with both, and hope they are able to resolve this dispute soon. Missing Fox. We are also cognoscente of the fact that any increase in carriage will be passed on to subscribers, so we hope Dish and Fox will both try to be reasonable. Currently we have the DN 250 package, and two Hoppers with Joes. We have no premium channels, and we're paying around $130 a month. Point is, the cost is approaching our "no longer worth it level", at which point we're gone. Just getting too expensive to pass the cost vs benefit test


----------



## eudoxia

I find it comical that anyone considers these channels "news" . It's all Infotainment to distract and divide with fake conspiracies to outrage, . Without going into a rant on each of those 3, Fox has set the bar the highest in the Infotainment world.

Try watching some programs on RT, FSTV, Link, or Al Jazeera, and before having that knee jerk reaction to scream Liberal, Socialist or any other bumper sticker realize they just might give your a different perspective than you are used to hearing whether you agree or not.


----------



## Nashcat

Hard news only, 24/7, = very few eyeballs. That wouldn't be the way to do it, either.


----------



## lparsons21

Nashcat said:


> Hard news only, 24/7, = very few eyeballs. That wouldn't be the way to do it, either.


Aye, that is the problem! Couple that with the fact that now news is supposed to make money and you get what we have. Pee-poor news coverage, but lots of opinions that are trying to be facts.

I want Fox to come back soon, mostly so I don't keep reading the whining and crying about them being off!


----------



## James Long

On the discussion of tiers:


TechnoCat said:


> I hear you, but they don't seem to be positioning them that way.


Their downloadable/printed channel guides do a good job:
http://www.mydish.com/programmingguides
AT120 has a list of channels. AT200 has "Includes all America's Top 120 plus channels listed below." AT250 has "Includes all America's Top 200 plus channels listed below." That is a tiered system. Smart Pack is off to the side. DISH America is on a different chart.



TechnoCat said:


> Is there a preferred term that would cover the rungs from the minimalist Dish package up through America to AT120 and beyond?


I'd call the other packages "specialty packages" ... and the key is to get the thought that these are "rungs" out of your mind. Smart Pack includes channels that are not in AT120. It includes channels from across all of the regular tiers.

If you think of rungs on a ladder and include Smart Pack you would be standing on the first rung and have channels including Nick Toons. Then you would step up to another rung (AT120) and lose some of your channels - including Nick Toons. It would not be until you got to the AT250 rung that you would get Nick Toons back. Smart Pack cannot be a rung on a ladder ... unless all one cares about is price and not content.

The tiered system is AT120 -> AT200 -> AT250 -> AEP
The other packages are specialty packages. (AT120+ could be considered a tier but includes one channel not in AT200. If anyone wants to call AT120+ a tier I won't complain.  )

In the tiered system one steps up to the next package ... with the other "specialty packages" one steps away to either the tiered system or another specialty package.


----------



## Chihuahua

Has Channel 206, which had been carrying *CNBC* during *Fox Business Network*'s absence disappeared (at least for the time being)?


----------



## James Long

Yes. At 5:41pm ET.


----------



## mwdxer

I read the info on Direct TV signing a good deal with Disney. They have Disney XD in HD. Why don't we? Does Direct get a better deal from programmers because they have more subscribers? I back Dish on many of the disputes, but as others have stated, Dish seems to have a lot more disputes than other carriers. Any thoughts on why? We have had several in the past few month. Fox is just the latest we have lost.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> If DISH took down the channel at 12:10AM Fox could have sued DISH for carrying the channel without permission. When permission to carry a channel expires the channel comes down. Fox may claim that they would have let DISH continue to carry the channel ... but without a contract it is risky. Especially against a multi-billion dollar company who has sued DISH in the past over their misunderstanding of their contract with DISH.
> 
> Perhaps Fox should sue DISH for failure to carry the channels until 11:59PM.
> Arguing over 9 minutes is petty.


Facts are Facts.

Dish pulled the plug - not Fox.

And again, based on what was said by Fox earlier in the week - and the fact that Fox had NEVER had a MVPD take down Fox News during a contract dispute (and Dish had done the same thing to Turner/CNN this same quarter) one has to be pretty naive to believe that Fox did not set 11:59PM as take it or leave it.

As Charlie said in November on the Q3 Conference Call "Yes, we'd lose some customers, but we'd save a big, big, big check from a cash flow perspective,"


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

mwdxer said:


> I back Dish on many of the disputes, but as others have stated, Dish seems to have a lot more disputes than other carriers. Any thoughts on why? We have had several in the past few month. Fox is just the latest we have lost.


"Yes, we'd lose some customers, but we'd save a big, big, big check from a cash flow perspective," Dish's Charlie Ergin Q3 Earnings Conference Call - November 2014


----------



## tsmacro

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Facts are Facts.
> 
> Dish pulled the plug - not Fox.
> 
> And again, based on what was said by Fox earlier in the week - and the fact that Fox had NEVER had a MVPD take down Fox News during a contract dispute (and Dish had done the same thing to Turner/CNN this same quarter) one has to be pretty naive to believe that Fox did not set 11:59PM as take it or leave it.
> 
> As Charlie said in November on the Q3 Conference Call "Yes, we'd lose some customers, but we'd save a big, big, big check from a cash flow perspective,"


Let me save you some time, at this point you've posted enough times that we all pretty much know exactly how all your posts will go. Something along the lines of: All the "facts" point to everything being Dish's fault all the time every time. And by "facts" you of course mean the way you interpret what's been released on to interwebs and if anyone else interprets differently than you than obviously they don't know what they're talking about because it doesn't jive with what you've decided are the "facts". Pretty much at this point all you have to do is reply "SomeRandomIdiots standard response" and we'll all know what you mean and you'll have time do other things. Meanwhile in the real world the facts are all of this is going to cost us more money on our tv bills because every time it's time for a new contract the companies that own the channels think that means it's time for a nice fat raise. Never mind that the cost of pay tv has gone up many, many times the cost of inflation over the past 20 years, at times even rivaling the rise in the cost of health care over that period of time. But hey it's only a luxury so I guess it's all about what the market will bear. Well it seems the market is showing signs of stress as more and more people are finding other ways to get their tv other than paying a traditional provider. Will the owners of the channels notice they've pushed too far before they kill the golden goose or are they too blinded by the prospect of getting a nice fat bonus for themselves right now that they haven't noticed that they're starting to price themselves out of the market of the average person? Maybe the best thing that can happen for the tv market will be when these channels actually do start offering direct streaming options to the customer because then they will be answerable directly to the customer. As opposed to now where Fox News doesn't get the angry calls from customers complaining about their bill being too high because the customers call Dish, Directv, Time-Warner or whoever they subscribe to so Fox News and all the other channels currently have that nice cushion between them and the customers that insulates them. If they start having to deal with the end customer directly maybe they'll finally get the message.


----------



## nmetro

If DISH saves "a big, big, big checks from a cash flow perspective", then why does DISH cost about $2 to $5 less, per month,than a similar package than DirecTV? I mean, Mr. Ergen makes it sounds like, we DISH subscribers, are saving a bundle. But, that bundle ranges from $24 to $60 per year. Where people save money are lower lease and DVR fees than DirecTV. But, no way this is some kind of windfall.

As for disputes, honestly both services have their share of disputes. Subscribers notice them with their own services, and do not normally pay attention when another service has a dispute. With a limited number of media companies, the disputes become more profound. I expect DirecTV to go through the pain with CBS, Comcast Sports, Turner, FOX, et. al., as they did with DISH. I also expect Viacom to cause a nasty dispute with DISH, like they did with DirecTV a couple years back. And I expect, NBC/Comcast NBC to be the next ugly DISH dispute, once they go through another Turner issue in a few months.

The bottom line, the new expectation of subscribers is to expect disputes as a normalcy. It is unfortunate. Until the FCC and Congress decide that penalizing subscribers should come with a price (refunds), the childish, and quite public, disputes will continue.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Facts are Facts.
> 
> Dish pulled the plug - not Fox.


Contracts are contracts. The contract expires the carriage expires. A fairly simple concept.
If Fox wants Fox News carried on DISH they need to sign a contract allowing such carriage.
Whining to the media is not the same as agreeing to a carriage contract.
(Either a long term contract or an extension of the existing ... put it in writing and sign it.)

I am looking forward to seeing how much Fox News' ratings jump up after being pulled from DISH. 
Perhaps if the ratings jump up enough Fox will decide to stay off DISH?


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

tsmacro said:


> Let me save you some time, at this point you've posted enough times that we all pretty much know exactly how all your posts will go. Something along the lines of: All the "facts" point to everything being Dish's fault all the time every time. And by "facts" you of course mean the way you interpret what's been released on to interwebs and if anyone else interprets differently than you than obviously they don't know what they're talking about because it doesn't jive with what you've decided are the "facts". Pretty much at this point all you have to do is reply "SomeRandomIdiots standard response" and we'll all know what you mean and you'll have time do other things. Meanwhile in the real world the facts are all of this is going to cost us more money on our tv bills because every time it's time for a new contract the companies that own the channels think that means it's time for a nice fat raise. Never mind that the cost of pay tv has gone up many, many times the cost of inflation over the past 20 years, at times even rivaling the rise in the cost of health care over that period of time. But hey it's only a luxury so I guess it's all about what the market will bear. Well it seems the market is showing signs of stress as more and more people are finding other ways to get their tv other than paying a traditional provider. Will the owners of the channels notice they've pushed too far before they kill the golden goose or are they too blinded by the prospect of getting a nice fat bonus for themselves right now that they haven't noticed that they're starting to price themselves out of the market of the average person? Maybe the best thing that can happen for the tv market will be when these channels actually do start offering direct streaming options to the customer because then they will be answerable directly to the customer. As opposed to now where Fox News doesn't get the angry calls from customers complaining about their bill being too high because the customers call Dish, Directv, Time-Warner or whoever they subscribe to so Fox News and all the other channels currently have that nice cushion between them and the customers that insulates them. If they start having to deal with the end customer directly maybe they'll finally get the message.


You are right. The cost of Pay TV has gone up many, many times the cost of inflation over the past 20 years.

20 years ago you did not have 500+ channels either.

Actually you should look 25 years back when the MVPDs only had 36 channel capacity. Divide the total cost then by 36 channels and you find the cost per channel has actually gone DOWN.

There were very few channels because there was no way for them to be delivered.

Technology evolved with DBS leading the charge for more channel capacity. With more capacity, programmer suppliers filled the supply and demand gap to fill those channels.

Furthermore, 20 years ago you were not leasing DVRs or units that can receive VOD.

So you are really not comparing what you get from a cable bill 20-25 years ago to today.

Cellular bills are much higher now than 20-25 years ago as well. However, Voice Calling is unlimited and less than the total bills of that time. So again, one has to look what the bill is made up of as you are not comparing apples to apples.

And I agree with you that with a MVPD that a customer actually pays a bill to every month, the channels are insulated.

But it is a given that a small number of OTT packages will cost more than today's typical bill for 500+ channels.

And if it goes that way, the portion of the IP delivery system that cable/fiber MVPD use and is allocated to Video will shift to Internet, driving those prices up to pay for the delivery system.

So with more choice - will come higher prices.

And if it comes to buying un-bundled, there is always this:

http://www.rapidtvnews.com/2014112336161/ott-bundles-will-cost-as-much-or-more-than-regular-cable-subscriptions.html


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> Contracts are contracts. The contract expires the carriage expires. A fairly simple concept.
> If Fox wants Fox News carried on DISH they need to sign a contract allowing such carriage.
> Whining to the media is not the same as agreeing to a carriage contract.
> (Either a long term contract or an extension of the existing ... put it in writing and sign it.)
> 
> I am looking forward to seeing how much Fox News' ratings jump up after being pulled from DISH.
> Perhaps if the ratings jump up enough Fox will decide to stay off DISH?


Then again, if the ratings do not fall ~15%, that always says something.

You have no evidence that a short term agreement was not verbally agreed to or was in the works. And Dish pulled CNN/Turner under the same circumstances.

Again:

1) Fox News had never been dropped from any MVPD in the past. Can Dish say that about their channels? A better question is how many a month does Dish go through this with?

2) Fox had made statements publicly that the contract expired but it was not considered a drop dead date.

A Felony is committed. You have 2 felons in a room. One has been convicted 100 times. 1 has never been. Occam's Razor. Who's most likely committed the Felony?


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> You have no evidence that a short term agreement was not verbally agreed to or was in the works. And Dish pulled CNN/Turner under the same circumstances.


Where is your evidence? "In the works" is not a done deal.

You are right about Turner ... their contract expired and carriage ceased. Just like with Fox News/Fox Business. Just like with every other channel that has ended carriage on DISH, DirecTV, Time Warner, Comcast or any other provider.

Channels don't get carried without an agreement. "In the works" is enough to get a channel on the system for testing (not available to customers). "In the works" is not enough to deliver a channel to customers. The provider needs permission.

Verbal permission is worth the paper it is written on. If Fox wants Fox News carried they know how to get their channels carried. SIGN a deal extending carriage. That is how it is done. Whining in the media does not add channels ... otherwise PAC-12 and the Dodger's channel would be on DirecTV.


----------



## nmetro

You left out one important point, as the quantity of channels has gone up; the quality of content has gone down.

There was more variety, diversity and entertainment on the 36 channels, then there is now on 500+ channels. The OTA digital subchannels, in my area, offer the variety that cable channels used to provide.

Last night, I recoded King of Kings and Ben Hur so I can watch them tomorrow. I ended up watching a couple movies on the OTA sub-channels, because of lack of variety and a low quality Bowl game.

To me, when ESPN, BTN, my sport regionals and TCM start provide Internet streams, not tied to a cable or satellite subscription, there is no point subscribing to cable or satellite. Complimented with the OTA sub-channels, that would be plenty of entertainment, at a far lower price.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> You are right. The cost of Pay TV has gone up many, many times the cost of inflation over the past 20 years.
> 
> 20 years ago you did not have 500+ channels either.
> 
> Actually you should look 25 years back when the MVPDs only had 36 channel capacity. Divide the total cost then by 36 channels and you find the cost per channel has actually gone DOWN.
> 
> There were very few channels because there was no way for them to be delivered.
> 
> Technology evolved with DBS leading the charge for more channel capacity. With more capacity, programmer suppliers filled the supply and demand gap to fill those channels.
> 
> Furthermore, 20 years ago you were not leasing DVRs or units that can receive VOD.
> 
> So you are really not comparing what you get from a cable bill 20-25 years ago to today.
> 
> Cellular bills are much higher now than 20-25 years ago as well. However, Voice Calling is unlimited and less than the total bills of that time. So again, one has to look what the bill is made up of as you are not comparing apples to apples.
> 
> And I agree with you that with a MVPD that a customer actually pays a bill to every month, the channels are insulated.
> 
> But it is a given that a small number of OTT packages will cost more than today's typical bill for 500+ channels.
> 
> And if it goes that way, the portion of the IP delivery system that cable/fiber MVPD use and is allocated to Video will shift to Internet, driving those prices up to pay for the delivery system.
> 
> So with more choice - will come higher prices.
> 
> And if it comes to buying un-bundled, there is always this:
> 
> http://www.rapidtvnews.com/2014112336161/ott-bundles-will-cost-as-much-or-more-than-regular-cable-subscriptions.html


----------



## inkahauts

nmetro said:


> If DISH saves "a big, big, big checks from a cash flow perspective", then why does DISH cost about $2 to $5 less, per month,than a similar package than DirecTV? I mean, Mr. Ergen makes it sounds like, we DISH subscribers, are saving a bundle. But, that bundle ranges from $24 to $60 per year. Where people save money are lower lease and DVR fees than DirecTV. But, no way this is some kind of windfall.
> 
> As for disputes, honestly both services have their share of disputes. Subscribers notice them with their own services, and do not normally pay attention when another service has a dispute. With a limited number of media companies, the disputes become more profound. I expect DirecTV to go through the pain with CBS, Comcast Sports, Turner, FOX, et. al., as they did with DISH. I also expect Viacom to cause a nasty dispute with DISH, like they did with DirecTV a couple years back. And I expect, NBC/Comcast NBC to be the next ugly DISH dispute, once they go through another Turner issue in a few months.
> 
> The bottom line, the new expectation of subscribers is to expect disputes as a normalcy. It is unfortunate. Until the FCC and Congress decide that penalizing subscribers should come with a price (refunds), the childish, and quite public, disputes will continue.


Except that FOX and DIRECTV just did a new contract and there was never a threat to loss of channels.

DIRECTV has not had huge losses of major channels like dish has.

Viacom the one exception and I think that told everyone they would if they really needed to.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> Where is your evidence? "In the works" is not a done deal.


In a court of law, one falsehood discredits the witness.

Dish claims Fox cut them off, but the physical evidence shows Dish pulled the plug while the contract was intact.

By the standards used by any court of law in the USA, Dish has been proven to be discredited in their statements.

Thus Fox News History of never being dropped by any other MVPD and their statements of Saturday at 11:59PM not being a hard deadline would be found as factual, by any reasonable jury - just not a dbstalk moderator.

You give the comical response that Dish could not throw a switch (or even plug a cable) at a certain time is laughable.

And BTW, verbal agreements have been used in the past to extend or turn service back on until a more formal agreement can be signed. Verbal contracts, though much harder to enforce than a written contract, are perfectly valid in these instances.


----------



## lparsons21

I got to thinking how appropriate some users names are...


----------



## tsmacro

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> In a court of law, one falsehood discredits the witness.
> 
> Dish claims Fox cut them off, but the physical evidence shows Dish pulled the plug while the contract was intact.
> 
> By the standards used by any court of law in the USA, Dish has been proven to be discredited in their statements.
> 
> Thus Fox News History of never being dropped by any other MVPD and their statements of Saturday at 11:59PM not being a hard deadline would be found as factual, by any reasonable jury - just not a dbstalk moderator.
> 
> You give the comical response that Dish could not throw a switch (or even plug a cable) at a certain time is laughable.
> 
> And BTW, verbal agreements have been used in the past to extend or turn service back on until a more formal agreement can be signed. Verbal contracts, though much harder to enforce than a written contract, are perfectly valid in these instances.


On the other hand there's evidence that shows Dish will work with and continue to negotiate and allow temporary extensions until a long term deal is done. After all Dish got permission and continued to show Disney programming for months after that contract expired. I find it hard to believe that if an extension was offered by Fox Dish wouldn't have taken them up on the offer, after all by having to remove Fox News they've had to deal with the ire of the Fox News Nation and trust me there's a group you don't rile up if you don't have to. I'm sure Fox knew they'd have this pressure to apply so they figured they were bargaining from a position of strength so why would they offer an extension that sets the precedent of them being paid the same for the service they were already getting?


----------



## tampa8

Dish is currently on an extension while negotiating with Turner also.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> I am looking forward to seeing how much Fox News' ratings jump up after being pulled from DISH.
> Perhaps if the ratings jump up enough Fox will decide to stay off DISH?


Laugh all you want.

They were up in DEMO where it counts in ad sales compared to Monday prior to Christmas last year - even after losing coverage to about 15% of the homes in the USA via Dish.

And still beat CNN and MSNBC combined.

*Live + Same Day Cable News Daily Ratings for Monday, December 23, 2013 vs Monday, December 22, 2014*


Code:


Total Day - P25-54 2013                2014               +/- 
FOXN             213,000             216,000              +3,000 
CNN              89,000              138,000             +49,000 
MSNBC            93,000               71,000             -22,000 
CNBC             47,000               57,000             +10,000 
FBN              10,000                8,000              -2,000 
HLN              66,000              126,000             +60,000


----------



## James Long

You are just illustrating the foolishness of crediting differences in ratings to one factor. And proving my point.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

tsmacro said:


> On the other hand there's evidence that shows Dish will work with and continue to negotiate and allow temporary extensions until a long term deal is done. After all Dish got permission and continued to show Disney programming for months after that contract expired. I find it hard to believe that if an extension was offered by Fox Dish wouldn't have taken them up on the offer, after all by having to remove Fox News they've had to deal with the ire of the Fox News Nation and trust me there's a group you don't rile up if you don't have to. I'm sure Fox knew they'd have this pressure to apply so they figured they were bargaining from a position of strength so why would they offer an extension that sets the precedent of them being paid the same for the service they were already getting?


You fail to explain why Fox News has never had a blackout previously if that was their desired negotiation tactic.

As for Dish, this is literally how many thousands?


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> You are just illustrating the foolishness of crediting differences in ratings to one factor. And proving my point.


Nice come back after proving you wrong once again. If your statements don't hold up, change the narrative.


----------



## tsmacro

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> You fail to explain why Fox News has never had a blackout previously if that was their desired negotiation tactic.
> 
> As for Dish, this is literally how many thousands?


Actually I did explain it, like I said they figure no one wants to face the Fox News Nation and other providers didn't put up much of fight, hence Fox saying we offered Dish the same deal we gave other providers, they never said it was a good deal for Dish or its customers just that it was the same.


----------



## Slamminc11

lparsons21 said:


> I got to thinking how appropriate some users names are...


Been thinking that for a while now!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

The only "evidence" we have at this point is that the channels are not on Dish. This means there is no agreement between FOX and Dish to carry the channels. Pretty much anything beyond that is speculation UNLESS someone here is an insider and is breaking a confidentiality agreement to post... so when people throw around "facts" as if they are facts, it can be distracting.

All we know is that Dish isn't in a contract with FOX right now for these channels. We can suspect that Dish "pulled the plug early" out of spite OR we could guess that they did it because they wanted to ensure they were off the air when the contract expired. Evidence to the latter point is that when new contracts are signed, channels don't light up immediately. Also, when ABC got the agreement for C3 delay on AutoHop that took a month or so to implement I believe... and I could be wrong but I don't think the new C7 agreement with CBS and AutoHop has been implemented yet... so signing a new contract doesn't mean everything starts EXACTLY at the deadline... just like when a contract ends, sometimes the signal goes off early.

Dish pays until midnight, but cuts the signal off 10 minutes early to be safe... The alternative is Dish risks keeping the signal on a second after midnight, being illegally in violation of transmitting unauthorized signals and then has a lawsuit on their hands... like when Dish thought they had a verbal agreement with Disney for those HD feeds years ago that Disney disagreed and sued Dish over non-payment... Dish lost that because it wasn't in the contract.

We could also speculate that FOX is the one closed to an extension while negotiating. FOX is the only one who can grant an extension, since it is there content... so it might be reasonable to conclude. There is the off chance that FOX did make an offer to extend BUT if other speculation is true and FOX wants to raise rates on other under-contract channels and use FOX News/Business as leverage... Dish might not see that as an extension offer in good faith and be right to turn it down.

We can all play the speculation game.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> You give the comical response that Dish could not throw a switch (or even plug a cable) at a certain time is laughable.


I did not say what you accuse me of saying here. Perhaps you should take more time and read?

DISH had a contract with Fox to carry Fox News and Fox Business. That contract expired at 11:59pm Saturday night. DISH did not have permission to carry the channels beyond 11:59pm. They did what they were forced to do by Fox's contract.

If you believe DISH was required to carry the channels until 11:59pm then perhaps you should talk to Fox and have them sue DISH for breach of contract. When that suit is filed please let us know.


----------



## lparsons21

Here's something I found interesting from the Fox News TV Wiki:
As indicated by a _New York Times_ article, based on Nielsen statistics, Fox appears to have an aging demographic.[48] In 2008, in the 25-54 age group, Fox News had an average of 557,000 viewers, but dropped to 379,000 in 2013 while increasing its overall audience from 1.89 million in 2010 to 2.02 million in 2013. The median age for Fox News viewers is listed as 65+ as Nielsen does not give exact figures for ages over 65.

I hadn't thought that the median age for Fox News viewers was anywhere near that high. IMO, makes the issue less of an issue. And now a bit of conjecture. Assuming the daily viewership is about 2 milion, and assume that 1/4 of them come from Dish, then the number of Dish subs materially affected by this shutdown is about 500K viewers. The 1/4 is a WAG as I don't know how it would all match up, but I would think 1/4 would be more than are actually Dish customers. While 500K subscriber loss wouldn't be welcome by Dish, they could surely survive and remain profitable if they never brought Fox News back it would seem.

Of course in that 2 Million viewers a certain percentage are not die-hard Fox News fans which brings the numbers all lower.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

tsmacro said:


> Actually I did explain it, like I said they figure no one wants to face the Fox News Nation and other providers didn't put up much of fight, hence Fox saying we offered Dish the same deal we gave other providers, they never said it was a good deal for Dish or its customers just that it was the same.


No, Fox News expired at other MVPDs and it was never pulled. Never Ever.

So they did not just roll over.

But do not let facts get in the way of the truth as so many others do.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

lparsons21 said:


> Here's something I found interesting from the Fox News TV Wiki:
> As indicated by a _New York Times_ article, based on Nielsen statistics, Fox appears to have an aging demographic.%5B48%5D In 2008, in the 25-54 age group, Fox News had an average of 557,000 viewers, but dropped to 379,000 in 2013 while increasing its overall audience from 1.89 million in 2010 to 2.02 million in 2013. The median age for Fox News viewers is listed as 65+ as Nielsen does not give exact figures for ages over 65.
> 
> I hadn't thought that the median age for Fox News viewers was anywhere near that high. IMO, makes the issue less of an issue. And now a bit of conjecture. Assuming the daily viewership is about 2 milion, and assume that 1/4 of them come from Dish, then the number of Dish subs materially affected by this shutdown is about 500K viewers. The 1/4 is a WAG as I don't know how it would all match up, but I would think 1/4 would be more than are actually Dish customers. While 500K subscriber loss wouldn't be welcome by Dish, they could surely survive and remain profitable if they never brought Fox News back it would seem.
> 
> Of course in that 2 Million viewers a certain percentage are not die-hard Fox News fans which brings the numbers all lower.


While you are correct ALL the News Programming on ANY channel skews old, how have you come up with your fictional number that 25% of Fox Viewers Nationally come from Dish - except that it sounded good to you?

Then again, you are implying that Dish subs over index in the 65+ category.

Based on many of the respondents, you might be on to something there.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> I did not say what you accuse me of saying here. Perhaps you should take more time and read?


Perhaps you should take time to remember the implications of what you posted:



James Long said:


> If DISH took down the channel at 12:10AM Fox could have sued DISH for carrying the channel without permission. When permission to carry a channel expires the channel comes down. Fox may claim that they would have let DISH continue to carry the channel ... but without a contract it is risky. Especially against a multi-billion dollar company who has sued DISH in the past over their misunderstanding of their contract with DISH.
> 
> Perhaps Fox should sue DISH for failure to carry the channels until 11:59PM.
> Arguing over 9 minutes is petty.


You are the one that implying Dish is incompetent to pull a channel at 11:59PM

And I will let you ponder this. Dish has no issue pulling a signal to the second when Sports Blackouts go into effect.

Amazing that you would argue that they could not do the same when they know the same about another network, as it is a simply computer entry.

But then again, perhaps you are saying that is too hard for the employees of Dish to perform.


----------



## Nashcat

Too bad as Topic Starter, I don't have any moderation powers over this thread. LOL

Seems the idiots, random as they may be, are not smart enough to know when their bull-headed stubbornness sorely detracts from the usefulness of the discussion.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

lparsons21 said:


> Assuming the daily viewership is about 2 milion...


This brings up something that I always wonder about... when I see figures like this, I don't know what it means. Are they counting eyes on the channel at any point during the day? And is that saying only 2 million viewers over the course of the day? Or is that the peak viewership at any particular time of day?

In any event... What it doesn't say is IF the 2 million viewers on Monday are the same viewers on Tuesday. Now, you might *think* most of them would be... but maybe a lot aren't. I rarely watch FOX news, but when a major news event happens I try and bounce around them all to get as balanced coverage as I can... so on some days I would be one of those 2 million but not most days.

So... when we try and parse how many of those 2 million viewers might be Dish customers, I don't know how easy that is to figure... Dish has about 14 million subscribers... It is entirely possible that on any particular day as many as half of those might tune to FOX News for a bit... so... over the course of the month 7 million Dish customers might notice FOX News being absent even if no more than a half million regularly tune to the channel.

That's the guessing game Dish has to play in these negotiations... the people who watch FOX News a lot are the ones who will complain... but how many of them are there? Then, of the casual/occasional viewers, there could be a lot who might complain IF this was the week they were going to tune in to FOX News.

Dish knows more about that than any of us does, though, since their receivers report this kind of info to them.


----------



## Nashcat

Stewart Vernon said:


> Dish knows more about that than any of us does, though, since their receivers report this kind of info to them.


Stewart, can they see this in real, or near real time? Do you know what all they can see?


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> And I will let you ponder this. Dish has no issue pulling a signal to the second when Sports Blackouts go into effect.
> 
> Amazing that you would argue that they could not do the same when they know the same about another network, as it is a simply computer entry.


The sports blackouts are routine and designed into the receiver. Changing content on a feed is not the same process.

*I* did not say that DISH could not make the change exactly at 11:59pm. Please stop making things up. I said that it is foolish to argue over 9-10 minutes. But if 9-10 minutes early is the best you can do in your near constant crusade against DISH Network ... I suppose that is the best that you can do.


----------



## James Long

Nashcat said:


> Stewart, can they see this in real, or near real time? Do you know what all they can see?


DISH knows in real time ... and uses what they know about the receivers they are tracking for apps such as the "What's Hot" application on Hopper receivers.


----------



## Nashcat

Thanks, James. I presume from the way you said that, they don't track all? Still that's an awesome amount of powerful information, figuratively and literally.


----------



## Zulu

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> A Felony is committed. You have 2 felons in a room. One has been convicted 100 times. 1 has never been. Occam's Razor. Who's most likely committed the Felony?


The butler?


----------



## lparsons21

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> While you are correct ALL the News Programming on ANY channel skews old, how have you come up with your fictional number that 25% of Fox Viewers Nationally come from Dish - except that it sounded good to you?
> 
> Then again, you are implying that Dish subs over index in the 65+ category.
> 
> Based on many of the respondents, you might be on to something there.


The 25% was a wild a$$ guess as I don't know, and you don't either, how many of Fox viewers out of the 2M viewers are on Dish.

There's been wild conjecturing about the huge percentage of Dish customers that watch Fox News. Even if ALL Fox News viewers were only on Dish, that only represents 1/7th of Dish't total subscriptions. My point is that the number of Dish subscribers that watch Fox News represents a relatively small % of Dish't total subscriber count. IOW, while Fox News may be an important channel to many, it is by far not one for the vast majority not matter how you try to count.


----------



## TechnoCat

lparsons21 said:


> And now a bit of conjecture. Assuming the daily viewership is about 2 milion, and assume that 1/4 of them come from Dish, then the number of Dish subs materially affected by this shutdown is about 500K viewers. The 1/4 is a WAG as I don't know how it would all match up, but I would think 1/4 would be more than are actually Dish customers. While 500K subscriber loss wouldn't be welcome by Dish, they could surely survive and remain profitable if they never brought Fox News back it would seem.


A quick search would tell you that Dish is nowhere near 25%. It's only about 15% of the TOP FIVE, so perhaps 8% overall. Comcast is the big doggie.

Dish subscribers are probably pretty sticky. We're into the install and equipment, and probably chose Dish not over Comcast (although I have fiber and cable options), but over Directv, due to other considerations. Plus this is happening over holiday break, when Fox News is probably not the prime viewing material.


----------



## James Long

It is pretty easy to say where Fox News' subscribers come from ... until last Friday nearly any subscription to DISH included Fox News (and several other news channels). 14 Million homes subscribed. DirecTV also has Fox in their low tier ... 20 Million homes.

Finding where the viewers are for any particular channel is more of a challenge. There are no public statistics that say how many DISH subs actually watch each channel. "WAG" is probably the best we can do. Even if detailed trying to guess based on the channel's demographics vs the provider's demographics it is a guess.

I don't see much value in trying to guess how many viewers DISH delivered to Fox News. Today it is zero. And that is the only figure we can be reasonably certain of.


----------



## Rotryrkt

Check out channel 204. Charlie is on with some pretty harsh rhetoric about the situation. Looks like this could be a long blackout. Both sides are digging in for a long battle. I watch Fox Business quite a lot and hate to see it off but I can live without it. With new price increases it's getting close to the tipping point of cutting the cord anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


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## BobCulp

I also saw Charlie's message on 204 last night. He mentioned a channel not in fox package is to be tripled in price, (a fox demand). My question is what channel are they referring to?


----------



## James Long

That was Joe Clayton on the channel the last time I looked. Did the message change?


----------



## Nashcat

Yes


----------



## lparsons21

TechnoCat said:


> A quick search would tell you that Dish is nowhere near 25%. It's only about 15% of the TOP FIVE, so perhaps 8% overall. Comcast is the big doggie.
> 
> Dish subscribers are probably pretty sticky. We're into the install and equipment, and probably chose Dish not over Comcast (although I have fiber and cable options), but over Directv, due to other considerations. Plus this is happening over holiday break, when Fox News is probably not the prime viewing material.


So if Dish is about 8% of total viewers out there, and Fox only has about 2M viewers on a daily basis it would seem that the number of Dish viewers that are regular viewers is fairly small in the grand scheme of things. Not quite the elephant in the room that some would like us to believe. Maybe just a very loud mouse instead!!


----------



## Jaspear

lparsons21 said:


> So if Dish is about 8% of total viewers out there, and Fox only has about 2M viewers on a daily basis it would seem that the number of Dish viewers that are regular viewers is fairly small in the grand scheme of things. Not quite the elephant in the room that some would like us to believe. Maybe just a very loud mouse instead!!


But still enough to get their attention, otherwise Carey wouldn't be whining about it in press releases.


----------



## lparsons21

Of course, you don't want to lose customers.


----------



## mitchflorida

What is all of this nonsense of "being loyal to Dish"? I am loyal to whoever has the channels I want at the most reasonable price. I flipped this week from Dish to U-verse. Fox News was certainly the impetus, but U-verse is quite a bit less expensive than Dish, especially with the introductory offer.

I can't imagine being "loyal" to Charlie Ergen. This is a commodity business now and I can pick and choose between Dish, Directv , AT&T and Comcast. I have been with all of them at one time of the other. If I am satisfied with a company, I stay. If they piss me off, I am gone. That applies to Dish and Mr. Ergen. "Loyalty" is not a consideration.


----------



## BobCulp

From #41 by James Long.
206 FOXB FOX Business News renamed NEWS FOX Business News (110° TP 8 SD Instant Order)
206 FOXB FOX Business News renamed NEWS FOX Business News (61.5° TP 16 SD MPEG4 Instant Order)

Noticed that 206 was removed from the dish and guide lineup. Does not look good.


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## fitnessCJ

Stewart Vernon said:


> JTG, you are playing the game FOX wants you to play here... FOX wants you to blame Dish as the evil empire and forget that FOX is just as evil of an empire. And, now, I'm not making a political statement... I'm saying FOX is every bit the big corporation that Dish is... FOX is bigger... way bigger... so if there is a bully in this scenario it would be FOX, and not Dish.
> 
> Each company get blame in these disputes... because they are codependent... but when you look into the switching providers that FOX says you should do to get your channels... that's FOX bullying you too. If you stick it out with Dish, FOX will come back to the table.
> 
> Switching to DirecTV or cable over a dispute like this just further empowers FOX the next time... and if you're with DirecTV or cable when it happens, what will you do then? Every time they get a bunch of viewers in an uproar it gives them fuel for the next negotiation.


I totally Disagree......you and many others have mentioned these blackouts before and don't panic. I agree with that...but this is FOX NEWS and they are not small peanuts like CNN, MSNBC, and CNN....wish by the way FOX has more viewers of their news each night than those 3 combined! YA WOW!
I have created an account here because I plan on having Direct set me up come Monday. I was giving 1 week to see if this gets resolved but I dont see that happening after reading and hearing the social media war that is heating up between these two. I look at it like this...I watch FOX 90% of my viewing TV. The rest is award shows on other channels, some baseball, lots of NASCAR, and tons of Football...GO BUCKS ! ! !
Look I like what I watch and look forward to watching the FIVE on my DVR each and every night. If I have time I watch many other fox news shows I also record. IF I can not have these channels then I DO NOT CARE WHO'S FAULT IT IS! Dish currently has me as a customer...so what POWER do I have...to show my disgust to DISH and leave for DIRECT. I can get a $150 visa card, and the genie in 4 rooms with a good program package all for 1/2 of what I currently pay...and after the first 12 months my bill is still going to be $10 less than my current DISH Bill. So for the last week I have NOT watched anything on my DISH other than American Pickers and Shark Tank that are sitting on my DVR. Sure I can be upset at FOX as well...but the point I want to be clear on is DISH is putting me the customer out on the front lines of a war I DO NOT WANT to even know about. what I want is the channels I watch. And based on my opinion with the comments from FOX....it sounds like FOX will get paid in the end anyways or for the first time you will have a Provider not able to get FOX news on its channel lineup.
DISH is in a LOSE LOSE situation as each day they are losing subscribers...oh and by the way I will be paying $220 to buy out my contract....but that does not bother me...what bothers me is DISH hung me head over the fire as a negotiating tactic and I want nothing to do with them at this point. I only have one option----one power ----that is to drop DISH!


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## oldanbo

Only 1 thing I didn't get for Christmas. Fox back on Dish. Oh yes there are more important things in life, it was just one of my little pleasures.

Not taking sides and my new coat was a swell gift from my family. ie: not rich don't get the wrong idea.

Merry Christmas everyone!


----------



## fitnessCJ

tsmacro said:


> Actually I did explain it, like I said they figure no one wants to face the Fox News Nation and other providers didn't put up much of fight, hence Fox saying we offered Dish the same deal we gave other providers, they never said it was a good deal for Dish or its customers just that it was the same.


I just don't understand why this is even a point? I am a customer and I watch 90% of Fox News.......so DISH has to ask the question do I want to do what everyone else has done and keep all of my viewers? OR Take on a fight they will not win? As a customer I am more pissed at DISH....this is what they get paid for...I don't run Dish Network and I don't want to be faced with the decisions I now have to make because I will pay $$$ for Fox News. At some point the debate to which network demands what cost can become a huge issue for the little news that can't. I am referring to MSNBC and CNN. To me FOX has 3x the viewers and is worth paying...so stop paying and black out channels that are not worth it. Wither you like FOX or not...they have been and are getting bigger every year. I am actually amazed at their growth. I used to watch MSNBC with Chris Mathews and after Obama was elected I started turning the channel and found many shows on FOX as for invigorating to watch. I am an Independent and I am shocked that DISH is playing Russian roulette with its customers.
I am left with no choice but to leave DISH and I do not see a reason to wait any longer due to comments like this:
http://www.dishstandsforyou.com/
I don't want to hear this garbage- I want to hear how the agreements are going and how close they are. Does he really think this is a blame game? It is about customers purchasing a product! Did Dish consider what % of their customers will leave for the ability to have the FOX NEWS CHANNEL. I seriously think this guy is point the finger to FOX....Dish will take a pounding in this and after AT&T joins Direct...Dish will be absorbed as well in a few years.


----------



## fitnessCJ

lparsons21 said:


> Here's something I found interesting from the Fox News TV Wiki:
> As indicated by a _New York Times_ article, based on Nielsen statistics, Fox appears to have an aging demographic.[48] In 2008, in the 25-54 age group, Fox News had an average of 557,000 viewers, but dropped to 379,000 in 2013 while increasing its overall audience from 1.89 million in 2010 to 2.02 million in 2013. The median age for Fox News viewers is listed as 65+ as Nielsen does not give exact figures for ages over 65.
> 
> I hadn't thought that the median age for Fox News viewers was anywhere near that high. IMO, makes the issue less of an issue. And now a bit of conjecture. Assuming the daily viewership is about 2 milion, and assume that 1/4 of them come from Dish, then the number of Dish subs materially affected by this shutdown is about 500K viewers. The 1/4 is a WAG as I don't know how it would all match up, but I would think 1/4 would be more than are actually Dish customers. While 500K subscriber loss wouldn't be welcome by Dish, they could surely survive and remain profitable if they never brought Fox News back it would seem.
> 
> Of course in that 2 Million viewers a certain percentage are not die-hard Fox News fans which brings the numbers all lower.


WOW this is an easy one! FOX is a Republican or Conservative leaning point of view on the news. Do you think young people give two hoots about the topics being talked about on these shows FOX has? Nope...once the younger have to get a job, pay a mortgage, buy Diapers, and just plain getting older they begin to have more traditional values and that is aligned with Fox News Broadcast shows. I know for a fact Democrats that watch the network. They don't vote republican but enjoy watching the network and Yes they are all older in age like 50 to 60's. Please understand this is my opinion and my experience as I have many customers that are older in my snow removal and grass cutting business's.


----------



## fitnessCJ

lparsons21 said:


> So if Dish is about 8% of total viewers out there, and Fox only has about 2M viewers on a daily basis it would seem that the number of Dish viewers that are regular viewers is fairly small in the grand scheme of things. Not quite the elephant in the room that some would like us to believe. Maybe just a very loud mouse instead!!


And to your point....this is why I believe FOX is in this for the long run! They will get what % of that 8% to switch to a carrier that has FOX News. I am one of them! Currently on DISH and I have always preferred DISH, but as soon as I saw my 90% watched channels gone I called to find out exact amount it would cost me to leave DISH. I just wont be able to pay each month for programming I wont watch. Yes i understand these numbers were just thrown out there, but don't attack me I wish I had access to Dish's DVR #'s


----------



## mitchflorida

BobCulp said:


> I also saw Charlie's message on 204 last night. He mentioned a channel not in fox package is to be tripled in price, (a fox demand). My question is what channel are they referring to?


I am pretty sure it is Fox Sports 2, which Dish barely pays anything for. It used to be called the Fuel TV.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I always put the blame on both companies for not coming up with a deal... but I generally support Dish because I want my bill to stay lower. There is NEVER a dispute that I'm aware of where the channel is asking Dish to pay less... it's always a discussion about paying more... so Dish playing hardball lowers the bill. The bill still goes up, just not as much as it could have.

FOX is putting you the viewer on the chopping block every bit as much as Dish is... FOX controls the content, so if you're not getting to watch FOX News that is on FOX and Dish... you can't blame one and not the other. They had a deal, FOX wanted more, Dish did not... FOX chose to take their ball and go home rather than keep playing and see if they could negotiate at some point.

That's FOX's right to do so and I don't blame them for that. I do, however, blame FOX when they start with the "go to DirecTV" nonsense. In all of these disputes the channel wanting more money swears it isn't up to them to raise your bill... and swears Dish took your programming away... and says you should switch companies if you want to keep watching... except, IF everyone does that... then FOX will try and hold that company and its customers hostage next time.

I get that you want to watch channels... and if you decide to switch, that's fine... but I don't like the network in the dispute trying to get people to switch. It's playing kids games. Both of these companies need to negotiate as adults and quit negotiating on fan Web sites and trying to stir people up... Agree or disagree and move on... that's what I wish they would do... and then if customers want to switch, that's fine too. I just don't like either side of these debates sitting back and stirring the pot of viewers and trying to get us to go their negotiating for them.


----------



## mitchflorida

Can you imagine paying Dish $125 a month and not getting the main channel that you watch or rely on? I am out now, so I hope Charlie holds out for 10 years. He's not doing it for us, he is doing it for himself. He gets a charge out of all of these disputes and all of the publicity he gets from it.


----------



## James Long

James Long said:


> That was Joe Clayton on the channel the last time I looked. Did the message change?





Nashcat said:


> Yes


Ah ... I was away from my TV.
Yes, Mr Ergen's message is much more directed and informative than Mr Clayton's.



BobCulp said:


> Noticed that 206 was removed from the dish and guide lineup. Does not look good.


I would not worry. It was airing content from 208. Channels are just as easily put back.



fitnessCJ said:


> I totally Disagree......you and many others have mentioned these blackouts before and don't panic. I agree with that...but this is FOX NEWS and they are not small peanuts like CNN, MSNBC, and CNN....wish by the way FOX has more viewers of their news each night than those 3 combined! YA WOW!


Good ratings for cable news ... but DISH has gone toe to toe with companies with much higher ratings.
If it is your channel ratings never matter. People miss their favorite shows on channels others have never heard of.



fitnessCJ said:


> Sure I can be upset at FOX as well...but the point I want to be clear on is DISH is putting me the customer out on the front lines of a war I DO NOT WANT to even know about.


DISH and Fox have placed viewers in this position. As you may have read, DISH's carriage contract expired. Without a contract from Fox DISH cannot continue carriage. You are probably more apt to believe that Fox offered an extension DISH refused than that DISH offered an extension Fox refused. In either case ... no contract, no carriage.



fitnessCJ said:


> ...what bothers me is DISH hung me head over the fire as a negotiating tactic and I want nothing to do with them at this point. I only have one option----one power ----that is to drop DISH!


Fox is using you, the loyal viewer, as their tool against DISH. You can do what Fox asks on their website and drop DISH. Or you can wait and see how long the dispute lasts. But it is your money, your choice. DISH is not forcing you do do Fox's bidding and leave.


----------



## mwdxer

I don't blame Dish. If Dish automatically agreed to all of these rate increases, we would be paying double what we pay. I remember years ago, Dish rarely had these disputes to the point of losing a channel. If there were any, they were rare. Back in the day when Dish was not forced to pay OTA stations. I guess this is the future, one dispute after another. I guess we need to get used to it. Now if streaming ever gets to the point where the subscriber can deal directly with the programmer, then we can decide if we want to pay the price. Right now expect for Netflix, I do not pay for any streaming on the Roku. I get what is free. Watching ads does not bother me. I have always felt, if a programmer runs ads, then the service should be free to watch. If they do not run ads, then it is a pay service like HBO, Showtime,etc. But in today's world, the greedy programmers have it both ways, run the ads, and charge through the nose for the channel. If that means we do not have a channel, so be it. I may miss something, like I did with the loss of TCM for a time, but Dish has to make a stand. We all have to remember, the programmers needs Dish as much as Dish needs them. They lose millions in these disputes.


----------



## mwdxer

Get a Roku if you are interested in International News. Sky News from the UK is beautiful in pq.


----------



## mwdxer

By the way, the longer Fox is gone from Dish, the better for the other news channels we get like CNN, MSNBC, News Max, etc, as they will get more viewers.


----------



## Wilf

mwdxer said:


> Get a Roku if you are interested in International News. Sky News from the UK is beautiful in pq.


I agree, and they have a lot of US news. It is hard to believe that Sky and Fox have the same owner - they are so different in many ways.


----------



## tsmacro

mwdxer said:


> By the way, the longer Fox is gone from Dish, the better for the other news channels we get like CNN, MSNBC, News Max, etc, as they will get more viewers.


I would think that NewsMax would get the biggest kick in ratings, first of all they report the news from a similar slant as Fox News, secondly since NewsMax is a new channel with very low ratings any increase in viewers is going to end up looking really good as a percentage.


----------



## tsmacro

mitchflorida said:


> What is all of this nonsense of "being loyal to Dish"? I am loyal to whoever has the channels I want at the most reasonable price. I flipped this week from Dish to U-verse. Fox News was certainly the impetus, but U-verse is quite a bit less expensive than Dish, especially with the introductory offer.
> 
> I can't imagine being "loyal" to Charlie Ergen. This is a commodity business now and I can pick and choose between Dish, Directv , AT&T and Comcast. I have been with all of them at one time of the other. If I am satisfied with a company, I stay. If they piss me off, I am gone. That applies to Dish and Mr. Ergen. "Loyalty" is not a consideration.


Who's saying anyone should be loyal to Dish? However after thinking about it being loyal to Dish is no crazier than being loyal any particular brand or store, I mean there are people who swear by more expensive brand names sitting side by side on the store shelves with the same product with a generic label that cost less. There's people who are loyal to certain stores, some think Wal-Mart is the $h!t because they always have the lowest price, some think Target is better because it's "nicer" even if slightly higher priced. Hell some people are even crazy enough to be loyal to a particular channel to the point of switching providers to follow the channel even though this behavior results in higher bills. People are loyal to all sorts of crazy things so being loyal to Dish is no worse than any of those. In any case I personally think you should pick whatever television provider works best for you whatever the reason is, I doubt for most people the reason is blind loyalty though.


----------



## lparsons21

mitchflorida said:



> Dish may have had better technology a couple of years ago but now everyone is catching up. And Dish is lagging with adding HD channels compared to the rest. Dish is losing customers the last couple of years and that trend will continue.


Dish still has the better technology IMO.

But HD channel lag is certainly there, hopefully to be addressed 'soon'. And as to losing customers, well frankly I expect going forward that losing net subscribers will become more the norm than the exception as prices keep rising and quality of the content on the channels keeps dropping.


----------



## Jaspear

lparsons21 said:


> Dish still has the better technology IMO.
> 
> But HD channel lag is certainly there, hopefully to be addressed 'soon'. And as to losing customers, well frankly I expect going forward that losing net subscribers will become more the norm than the exception as prices keep rising and quality of the content on the channels keeps dropping.


Short of Dish switching out millions of antiquated receivers, or the federal government ending it's crony local channel monopoly, using the word "soon" to describe more HD on Dish is _very_ relative. 

Letting negotiations degrade to the point of channel removal will only exacerbate the loss of subscribers. Charlie's 'they snuck one in on us' argument is disingenuous at best. They've known about the underhanded tactics fox uses against providers (especially Dish) for years. They should have anticipated it long before it was too late to avoid the channel blackout.


----------



## Jaspear

Oh, and thanks to the mods for not locking this thread. It's nice to have a forum to discuss this on.


----------



## mwdxer

The issue with NewsMax in at channel #223 ( I think), many do not know they are there. Dish should have moved NewsMax over to #204. That would have been a real boost for NewsMax.


----------



## mitchflorida

Newsmax pays to be on Dish and it isn't a normal news channel. It is free to anyone who has a Roku or personal computer.


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## James Long

FYI: TheBlaze is now on channel 205 in HD (as well as 212 in SD).


----------



## jsk

I wonder how many people continue to watch more of the replacement channels long term after a dispute and less of the disputed channels. I would bet that it causes some long term impact. I think Newsmax would be more hurtful to Fox News than the Blaze.


----------



## satcrazy

lparsons21 said:


> Dish still has the better technology IMO.
> 
> But HD channel lag is certainly there, hopefully to be addressed 'soon'. And as to losing customers, well frankly I expect going forward that losing net subscribers will become more the norm than the exception as prices keep rising and quality of the content on the channels keeps dropping.


Agreed.

The irony here is, I just [ last week] hooked up the roku Dish was giving out during the AMC dispute. [ Didn't really have the need for a wireless router at the time, and the Dish roku has no eathernet port] .

It does have a Fox news app, however.

Furthermore, if sub pricing keeps going up, I can use this set top for streaming if I decide to cut the cable.

Talk about Dish being accommodating :righton:


----------



## altidude

jsk said:


> I wonder how many people continue to watch more of the replacement channels long term after a dispute and less of the disputed channels. I would bet that it causes some long term impact. I think Newsmax would be more hurtful to Fox News than the Blaze.


I'm watching CNN for news until Fox News is back. I'll take a look at NewsMax after reading this thread, though. When Fox News comes back I'm back to Fox News.

Funny thing is I was pricing out an upgrade for our Dish system a couple of days before Fox News went dark. I was ready to pull the trigger on a Hopper, a Super Joey and a Joey but I'll wait and see how long this goes.


----------



## fudpucker

I wonder how much money Charlie puts in his pocket if he goes a month without paying Fox for their channel? User bills don't go down during that time so if he isn't paying whatever the monthly bill is to Fox, that's just money in his bank.


----------



## tampa8

Do your bills go up immediately when new channels are added? No, so a completely bogus argument.


----------



## tampa8

mwdxer said:


> I don't blame Dish. If Dish automatically agreed to all of these rate increases, we would be paying double what we pay........


And to back you up, (Well ok not double) Anyone can check this for themselves. I am paying presently $15 less per month with DISH than I would be with Direct TV, about $200 a year for similar equipment and similar package, and when the new rates for both DISH and Direct go into effect I will be saving $16.63 more a year.
That is with two HD DVR receivers and Top 250. That includes Direct TV would add a $3.63 per month surcharge in my area for RSN's.


----------



## mwdxer

I have heard for a similar package, Direct TV is higher than Dish. Maybe that is one reason Direct may be willing to pay more(?) for for a channel than Dish, as their subscribers pay more. The last I read, Direct TV did not have many of the channels in the Blockbuster package, but I have no checked recently. For the $10 a month, it is a very good price. Plus getting Epix with Dish, I have acesss to Epix on the Roku for free too. Direct does have more subscribers, so maybe they pay less than Dish does too. Anyone know?


----------



## Rduce

When I was with DISH, I checked into DIRECT's pricing and was shocked that even with a promo offer I would be paying $5 a month more with DIRECT and after 12 months it was crazy more, almost $30 a month more. I had a 922 using it on 2 sets with AT-200 package.


----------



## mwdxer

Also, Direct does not have many of the channels Dish has also. At least it was that way, the last time I checked.


----------



## mwdxer

A bit ago, I checked Direct and did not find most of what Dish carries in the Blockbuster package. I did not find Epix, Retro, Sony, etc. Doesn't Direct carry those?


----------



## mitchflorida

fudpucker said:


> I wonder how much money Charlie puts in his pocket if he goes a month without paying Fox for their channel? User bills don't go down during that time so if he isn't paying whatever the monthly bill is to Fox, that's just money in his bank.


How much does Charlie take out of his pocket to pay for all of these $5-15 3-month credits they hand out like candy?

It costs Dish about $350 to acquire and install a new Dish customer. How many customers have cancelled their subscriptions in the last week?

How many customers will not sign up with Dish until this FNC dispute is resolved?

Until we get those figures we won't know. They have to report the information quarterly .

My guess is Dish is taking it on the chin, but I guess Charlie has backed himself into a corner.


----------



## lparsons21

I keep thinking in the back of my mind that the number of subs that will actually cancel and move on, or never sub to Dish while the FNC fiasco is going on is less significant than the FNC's more passionate and vociferous viewers think it is, or hope it is. And based on the various stories about what is causing this to stretch out, it seems Fox is playing the CNN card with no better luck at moving Charlie and company. And because that movement doesn't seem to be happening with any great speed, I'd say that reinforces the idea that the number of subs isn't all that big a number.

Beyond that, after the contentious negotiations with CBS that got settled with only a few hours of actual loss of channels, I have to think that Fox is being very hard line, every bit as hard line as Charlie and company get. And I think Fox has possibly overrated their importance, value and numbers. And I think that comes from believing the passionate, vociferous few that live and breathe with FNC's every presentation.

I know that me and my friends, some of whom are VERY conservative, are not happy with FNC being off Dish but none of them are ready to pull the plug yet. Thinking, correctly I think, that it won't be all that long before they come to terms. BTW, even those very conservative ones get their news from more than one source, not all right-leaning either.


----------



## patmurphey

If this goes on I am going to add a DirecTV non DVR receiver to my family room TV for $25 month. I'll decide what to do next year when the price expires. A side benefit is TNT in case the postponed settlement doesn't happen. Also the DirecTV dish would be on a sheltered side of the house from nor'easter snow and points in a different direction for rain blocking. Maybe even some credits from Dish to help pay?

No way am I giving up my Hoppers!


----------



## Slamminc11

mitchflorida said:


> How much does Charlie take out of his pocket to pay for all of these $5-15 3-month credits they hand out like candy?
> 
> It costs Dish about $350 to acquire and install a new Dish customer. How many customers have cancelled their subscriptions in the last week?
> 
> How many customers will not sign up with Dish until this FNC dispute is resolved?
> 
> Until we get those figures we won't know. They have to report the information quarterly .
> 
> My guess is Dish is taking it on the chin, but I guess Charlie has backed himself into a corner.


You have proof it costs Dish $350 to acquire a customer or are you pulling number out of the air again?


----------



## Laxguy

It's hard to believe that anyone would accept a lesser quality HD picture for a few hundred bucks a year.


----------



## lparsons21

Laxguy said:


> It's hard to believe that anyone would accept a lesser quality HD picture for a few hundred bucks a year.


Why? It isn't that much different imo.


----------



## mitchflorida

Slamminc11 said:


> You have proof it costs Dish $350 to acquire a customer or are you pulling number out of the air again?


You are right. The installers, and the trucks are for free. They are all unpaid volunteers.

The dish and receivers and cabling are a gift from the manufacturer.

All those advertisements they run on tv and in direct mail cost nothing, and all those commissions they pay to retailers are free as are the referral fees to customers. Plus the gift cards . .


----------



## James Long

mitchflorida said:


> You have proof it costs Dish $350 to acquire a customer or are you pulling number out of the air again?
> 
> 
> 
> You are right. The installers, and the trucks are for free. They are all unpaid volunteers.
> 
> The dish and receivers and cabling are a gift from the manufacturer.
> 
> All those advertisements they run on tv and in direct mail cost nothing, and all those commissions they pay to retailers are free as are the referral fees to customers. Plus the gift cards . .
Click to expand...

DISH claims a subscriber acquisition cost of $861. What is the source of your $350 claim?
Sarcasm says free, logic says not free, but where did you get THAT number?


----------



## mitchflorida

James Long said:


> DISH claims a subscriber acquisition cost of $861. What is the source of your $350 claim?
> Sarcasm says free, logic says not free, but where did you get THAT number?


I was trying to lowball it but I don't doubt that it is at least $500 or more. That's why this dispute has the potential of really hurting Dish badly. We can only guess how many customers cancelled their service, and Dish isn't volunteering that information.


----------



## James Long

A blip on the radar.

When the 4Q/year end numbers come out in a few months everyone will pick their favorite cause and try to blame anything negative on whatever cause they choose. If DISH does not NET ADD subscribers for the quarter will it be because of losing Fox News for the last two weeks of the quarter or the month without CNN or the lack of 4K programming or the lack of 24/7 RSNs or failure to upgrade the Hopper to be able to add individual OTA channels or whatever else people harp on against DISH. If DISH does NET ADD subscribers then the claim will "there could have been more if it were not for" their favorite reason.

Everything DISH does has the potential for hurting the company ... that is why the SEC filings read like a horror story filled with all the bad things that could potentially happen (but are not expected to happen). The potential is there.

The reality: DISH loses 2-3 million customers each year and adds about the same. DirecTV loses 3-4 million customers each year and adds about the same. This year DISH needs to NET ADD 16 thousand customers in the fourth quarter to end up with a net positive year (for subscriber count). DirecTV needs to NET ADD 50 thousand customers in the fourth quarter to end up with a positive year (for subscriber count).

Losing customers for any reason is not good ... but it is part of doing business and being part of the industry. The years of being able to count on every year being net positive on subscriber numbers are gone. I hope they pull it out and get enough new subscribers to keep the NET positive. But there are no guarantees.


----------



## mitchflorida

You may be right, but Mr. Ergen is really starting to lose it. He is like a poker player on a losing streak.

On Christmas Eve, for goodness sake, he takes to the airwaves to bitterly call 21st Century Fox an "extortionist" and "hostage-taker" for forcing him to pay more for channels he doesn't want (Fox Sports 1 and 2) in order to get what he does want, Fox News. Isn't that what Dish and the others force us to do: Pay for hundreds of channels we never watch in order to get the few that we do?

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/entertainment/television/Dish-Network-claims-extortion-in-Fox-News-carriage-fight.html


----------



## Slamminc11

mitchflorida said:


> You are right. The installers, and the trucks are for free. They are all unpaid volunteers.
> 
> The dish and receivers and cabling are a gift from the manufacturer.
> 
> All those advertisements they run on tv and in direct mail cost nothing, and all those commissions they pay to retailers are free as are the referral fees to customers. Plus the gift cards . .


so you were just pulling the number out your butt. Color me surprised!


----------



## mitchflorida

Slamminc11 said:


> so you were just pulling the number out your slam. Color me surprised!


They were even more than I thought, lol.

By the way, anyone who has hard numbers, please post the link. thx in advance.


----------



## James Long

mitchflorida said:


> Isn't that what Dish and the others force us to do: Pay for hundreds of channels we never watch in order to get the few that we do?


That comes down to the channel providers, not DISH, DirecTV or the other distributors. Find the major distributor who allows subscribers to get any channel they want without the core channels forced on us by the channel providers.

There is a reason why the lowest tiers (AT120 and Entertainment) on both satellite providers will be $59.99 next year. Because both satellite providers have a long list of "must deliver" channels forced on them by the channel providers.

For years Mr Ergen has banged the drum for a la carte ... speaking in front of Congress on many occasions trying to change the industry and make a la carte the norm - but the industry will not change. Channel providers will bundle and just as ABC/ESPN/Disney uses their channels to demand what they want (and get it) Fox is making their demands.

If you like Fox News then pay ESPN rates for Fox Sports 1. Isn't that extortion?


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

lparsons21 said:


> So if Dish is about 8% of total viewers out there, and Fox only has about 2M viewers on a daily basis it would seem that the number of Dish viewers that are regular viewers is fairly small in the grand scheme of things. Not quite the elephant in the room that some would like us to believe. Maybe just a very loud mouse instead!!


What you fail to realize that an AVERAGE of 2 Million on a daily basis would usually put it in the Top 6 English Language Channels, often #5 (With ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC leading).

Furthermore, the same 2 Million do not watch daily.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> DISH knows in real time ... and uses what they know about the receivers they are tracking for apps such as the "What's Hot" application on Hopper receivers.


Incorrect.....again.

That would take a real time constant connection. Many are not connected to the internet (which still does not represent a constant connection to Dish). Phone lines (if connected) only report in very limited data.

What Dish uses for What's Hot is simply a sample of what a small number of subs are reporting at that time.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> What Dish uses for What's Hot is simply a sample of what a small number of subs are reporting at that time.


Much like the AC Nielson ratings. 
Representative samples.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

Stewart Vernon said:


> I always put the blame on both companies for not coming up with a deal... but I generally support Dish because I want my bill to stay lower. There is NEVER a dispute that I'm aware of where the channel is asking Dish to pay less... it's always a discussion about paying more... so Dish playing hardball lowers the bill. The bill still goes up, just not as much as it could have.
> 
> FOX is putting you the viewer on the chopping block every bit as much as Dish is... FOX controls the content, so if you're not getting to watch FOX News that is on FOX and Dish... you can't blame one and not the other. They had a deal, FOX wanted more, Dish did not... FOX chose to take their ball and go home rather than keep playing and see if they could negotiate at some point.
> 
> That's FOX's right to do so and I don't blame them for that. I do, however, blame FOX when they start with the "go to DirecTV" nonsense. In all of these disputes the channel wanting more money swears it isn't up to them to raise your bill... and swears Dish took your programming away... and says you should switch companies if you want to keep watching... except, IF everyone does that... then FOX will try and hold that company and its customers hostage next time.
> 
> I get that you want to watch channels... and if you decide to switch, that's fine... but I don't like the network in the dispute trying to get people to switch. It's playing kids games. Both of these companies need to negotiate as adults and quit negotiating on fan Web sites and trying to stir people up... Agree or disagree and move on... that's what I wish they would do... and then if customers want to switch, that's fine too. I just don't like either side of these debates sitting back and stirring the pot of viewers and trying to get us to go their negotiating for them.


As pointed out earlier by another poster, Dish is at best around $2 cheaper a month.

And considering that Dish always seems to have channels blacked out, that is probably where the $2 savings comes from.

DirecTV rarely has blackouts.

Is it really worth all this anguish for a $2 a month savings?


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> Much like the AC Nielson ratings.
> Representative samples.


Incorrect again.

Nielsen spends millions to make sure they have a 100% scientific random sample representing the entire country and each demographic.

Dish's sample is just which unit happened to check in over the last 15-30 minutes.


----------



## lparsons21

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> What you fail to realize that an AVERAGE of 2 Million on a daily basis would usually put it in the Top 6 English Language Channels, often #5 (With ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC leading).
> 
> Furthermore, the same 2 Million do not watch daily.


Nice try!

That 2 Million is a nice fat number, but if Dish represents 8% of the total tv viewers and the Dish viewers were representative of the overall viewership, then the max number of Dish subs significantly affected would be 8% of that 2M viewers or 160K viewers. Certainly not a number you would want to lose, but not earth shattering either.

Face it, FNC is not and never has been nearly as significant as you FNC fans would like it to be. They've found an audience of like thinkers that they can feed every day and that's good for them.


----------



## lparsons21

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As pointed out earlier by another poster, Dish is at best around $2 cheaper a month.
> 
> And considering that Dish always seems to have channels blacked out, that is probably where the $2 savings comes from.
> 
> DirecTV rarely has blackouts.
> 
> Is it really worth all this anguish for a $2 a month savings?


And the poster that said that was figuring a bit wrong. No, the number is not hugely different, but it is more often than not well over $5/month or $60 per year depending on type and number of receivers/dvrs.

And no, Dish doesn't seem to have channels blacked out all that much regardless of the web you'd like to spin. Right now it seems that way because so many contentious contracts came up about the same time.

As to anguish, well I notice it a hell of a lot more from those that aren't Dish subscribers.


----------



## lparsons21

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Incorrect again.
> 
> Nielsen spends millions to make sure they have a 100% scientific random sample representing the entire country and each demographic.
> 
> Dish's sample is just which unit happened to check in over the last 15-30 minutes.


Dish told you how they sample?


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

lparsons21 said:


> Dish told you how they sample?


Luckily I know how to use my brain.

Unless you have tin foil on your head thinking that Dish has uplink and downlink ability from your home, then the people living in reality know that Dish is not constantly using their land line to stay in contact with Dish 24/7/365 telling them what they are watching at that moment in real time.

Furthermore, anyone looking at their internet traffic knows that is also true of internet connections.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Nielsen spends millions to make sure they have a 100% scientific random sample representing the entire country and each demographic.
> 
> Dish's sample is just which unit happened to check in over the last 15-30 minutes.


DISH only cares about a specific demographic - DISH subscribers. That is the pool from which they take their representative samples. It gives DISH a fairly good idea of what channels are watched by their subscribers. Enough information to gauge the impact of allowing a channel to go dark.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

lparsons21 said:


> And the poster that said that was figuring a bit wrong. No, the number is not hugely different, but it is more often than not well over $5/month or $60 per year depending on type and number of receivers/dvrs.
> 
> And no, Dish doesn't seem to have channels blacked out all that much regardless of the web you'd like to spin. Right now it seems that way because so many contentious contracts came up about the same time.
> 
> As to anguish, well I notice it a hell of a lot more from those that aren't Dish subscribers.


The previous post was talking about the charge for Programming - not including Equipment fees, as others seems to want to throw in.

Unless for some reason you have facts that equipment fees impacts your cost of programming?


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

James Long said:


> DISH only cares about a specific demographic - DISH subscribers. That is the pool from which they take their representative samples. It gives DISH a fairly good idea of what channels are watched by their subscribers. Enough information to gauge the impact of allowing a channel to go dark.


No one disputes that.

But that is a far cry from what was originally posted indicating that Dish had the ability to see their entire network in real time as to what was being viewed.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Luckily I know how to use my brain.
> 
> Unless you have tin foil on your head thinking that Dish has uplink and downlink ability from your home, then the people living in reality know that Dish is not constantly using their land line to stay in contact with Dish 24/7/365 telling them what they are watching at that moment in real time.
> 
> Furthermore, anyone looking at their internet traffic knows that is also true of internet connections.


You are reading too many absolutes where absolutes were not written. No one is claiming 24/7/365 monitoring via phone lines or Internet of every receiver in the system. No one. If you are reading that then perhaps you need to read again until you understand.

Now ... back to Fox News, or the lack therof.


----------



## inkahauts

tampa8 said:


> Do your bills go up immediately when new channels are added? No, so a completely bogus argument.


Actually not at all. In fact that's even more of a reason to think that's why he does this. Allows him to stock pile just enough money to pay for the increase in fees he pays before he has a chance to actually increase the fees his customers pay. It's like hitting customers with the increase without changing the price since he's still charging the same amount for less channels.

And he isn't giving every single customer a discount. I bet he's barely scratching the surface. Heck if every single FOX news watcher was a dish sub and called in that still only be a couple million out of the 12 million or so that he has... And we know that is no where near accurate having all two million viewers on just dish...


----------



## Slamminc11

mitchflorida said:


> They were even more than I thought, lol.
> 
> By the way, anyone who has hard numbers, please post the link. thx in advance.


So I guess you admit you don't have a clue what the cost is, you just made it up.


----------



## lparsons21

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> The previous post was talking about the charge for Programming - not including Equipment fees, as others seems to want to throw in.
> 
> Unless for some reason you have facts that equipment fees impacts your cost of programming?


So you only pay for programming? Which service is that? Personally I look at what I pay Dish (or Direct) in total since it doesn't matter how the numbers are put together, it is the sum of all parts that is important. The rest is just BS'ing to prove a bogus point!


----------



## mitchflorida

This "discussion" is becoming rather distasteful. If we can't treat each other with mutual respect, perhaps it is time to shut the thread down.


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

lparsons21 said:


> So you only pay for programming? Which service is that? Personally I look at what I pay Dish (or Direct) in total since it doesn't matter how the numbers are put together, it is the sum of all parts that is important. The rest is just BS'ing to prove a bogus point!


So you admit that Charlie's hard stance on programming and constant blackouts is not saving money on PROGRAMMING?

To quote another:



James Long said:


> There is a reason why the lowest tiers (AT120 and Entertainment) on both satellite providers will be $59.99 next year.


----------



## James Long

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> So you admit that Charlie's hard stance on programming and constant blackouts is not saving money on PROGRAMMING?


Most people care more about their total bill. If DISH wanted to guarantee the cheapest programming they could charge $10 less than DirecTV for programming and increase receiver charges to cover the loss of income (including charging for the first receiver). Would that make you happy?

But you should note that the $59.99 prices were and are not just for programming. They are the base price of SERVICE. DISH and DirecTV charge for more than programming in their base prices.

Lloyd is referring to the total cost of service. The average DISH subscriber paid $84.39 for service each month in 3Q 2014. The average was around $80 for 2013, $77 for 2011 and 2012, $73 for 2010, $70 for 2009. There are obviously personal changes that affect that (eg: people subscribing to lower packages to save money). This is not intended to be an exhaustive explanation of all things related to DISH pricing.

The fees outside of the "programming package" are part of what people pay - and the full cost matters.


----------



## fitnessCJ

mwdxer said:


> By the way, the longer Fox is gone from Dish, the better for the other news channels we get like CNN, MSNBC, News Max, etc, as they will get more viewers.


I doubt that.....Fox viewers are NOT going to tune into those you mentioned. I will watch a movie and go to the Fox News web site and watch as many news clips as I can for now.
I am waiting a few more days as I am researching the Genie Remote! It looks horrible...scaring me away from Direct at the moment. I liek my Dish but without FOX I wont stay...just the way it will be...I want FOX!


----------



## fitnessCJ

tsmacro said:


> Who's saying anyone should be loyal to Dish? However after thinking about it being loyal to Dish is no crazier than being loyal any particular brand or store, I mean there are people who swear by more expensive brand names sitting side by side on the store shelves with the same product with a generic label that cost less. There's people who are loyal to certain stores, some think Wal-Mart is the **** because they always have the lowest price, some think Target is better because it's "nicer" even if slightly higher priced. Hell some people are even crazy enough to be loyal to a particular channel to the point of switching providers to follow the channel even though this behavior results in higher bills. People are loyal to all sorts of crazy things so being loyal to Dish is no worse than any of those. In any case I personally think you should pick whatever television provider works best for you whatever the reason is, I doubt for most people the reason is blind loyalty though.


AND...some are crazy to think you are going to get a cheaper bill due to the CEO going to battle with Fox news....GET REAL MAN! Direct pays the same price that Fox is asking Dish to pay......all this crazy talk about we the customer get savings...blah blah blah....we never know if we get a price based on this theory's. I agree with Mitch...I am not staying with a provider than no longer carries the channel I watch 90% of the time...now THAT WOULD BE CRAZY!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

James Long said:


> FYI: TheBlaze is now on channel 205 in HD (as well as 212 in SD).


Interesting... I had said back when CNN was off the air that it would have been a good time to put up the Blaze or Al Jazeera America in HD (since they both exist) and see if they could pick up viewers. I know I'm a little bit of an HD snob so I would be more likely to branch out for my news with more HD options.

I would like to see the Blaze stay in HD after the FOX dispute ends... but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Meanwhile... on a random note...

You know the "We Dish you a Merry Christmas" promo spot Dish has been running this year? I swear that when they first started running it there was a bit of the FOX & Friends daytime crew in there singing... but I don't see it anymore. I think it was either just before or just after the Alan Thicke singing bit in the commercial. Am I imagining that OR did they actually change their commercial after the FOX channels went dark?


----------



## fitnessCJ

B I N G O ! ! ! screw this Bologna business we get some kind of savings due to what Charlie E negotiates. Charlie made a simple decision....and it was the wrong one.




fudpucker said:


> I wonder how much money Charlie puts in his pocket if he goes a month without paying Fox for their channel? User bills don't go down during that time so if he isn't paying whatever the monthly bill is to Fox, that's just money in his bank.


----------



## fitnessCJ

altidude said:


> I'm watching CNN for news until Fox News is back. I'll take a look at NewsMax after reading this thread, though. When Fox News comes back I'm back to Fox News.
> 
> Funny thing is I was pricing out an upgrade for our Dish system a couple of days before Fox News went dark. I was ready to pull the trigger on a Hopper, a Super Joey and a Joey but I'll wait and see how long this goes.


I got the Hopper and Joey a year ago...I personally think they are SUPER AWESOME ! ! !
But I will leave Dish if I do not get FOX NEWS BACK I watch them 90% of the time when watching TV...the other times are watching sports.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

fitnessCJ said:


> AND...some are crazy to think you are going to get a cheaper bill due to the CEO going to battle with Fox news....GET REAL MAN! Direct pays the same price that Fox is asking Dish to pay......all this crazy talk about we the customer get savings...blah blah blah....we never know if we get a price based on this theory's. I agree with Mitch...I am not staying with a provider than no longer carries the channel I watch 90% of the time...now THAT WOULD BE CRAZY!


A little tip on negotiating that I partially went into on another thread...

For the sake of argument let us consider Dish, DirecTV, Time Warner, AT&T, and Comcast. There are others but these are more than enough.

Hypothetical negotiations follow...

FOX asks DirecTV to pay 50 cents per channel per month... DirecTV agrees. Time Warner comes up for negotiation, they are already paying 35 cents and they are willing to pay the 50 cents they know DirecTV is paying but FOX wants them to pay 60 cents. Eventually they agree to pay 55 cents. AT&T comes up... similar negotiations, and AT&T ends up paying 60 cents... and so forth... so by the time the Dish contract comes up (may be several years between these various company contracts expiring) FOX is asking Dish to pay 75 cents per channel. Dish says, but DirecTV is only paying 50 cents and we should get the same rate as them... FOX has been inching this up over various contracts and providers for a couple of years and wants more... and knows IF they don't push Dish above 50 cents they will have a hard time pushing DirecTV in the next negotiation.

The problem... some companies just agree without much pushback... and that's how the price keeps inching up... and since you don't want price-fixing collusion you can't get all the providers together on holding the line on these increases.

Dish seems more willing to hold the line than others... which in the long run is keeping their costs down AND costs of other providers once a Dish deal is done.

It doesn't mean your bill goes down... it doesn't mean your bill doesn't go up... but it surely means your bill doesn't go up as fast.

And... once the FOX deal is done... the next channel steps up and says "but you paid FOX, now its our turn"... and the same philosophy applies... TNT will say "but you paid FOX, now pay us" and on we go.

IF every channel in the lineup got 1 penny a day increase, how quickly would your bill get out of hand? Imagine the hundreds of channels all going up 30 cents per month every year... And this is why Dish has to try and hold the line. That doesn't mean they pass all the savings to you... no company does that! But if they just go with whatever every company wants every time, then the bills that people already complain about would be insane already.


----------



## fitnessCJ

mwdxer said:


> A bit ago, I checked Direct and did not find most of what Dish carries in the Blockbuster package. I did not find Epix, Retro, Sony, etc. Doesn't Direct carry those?


But I just don't see any of these channels meaning any $$$$ of Value at least not to me. I want FOX NEWS and I will pay. I am paying Dish $118 a month and I have 2 hoppers and 2 Joey's. Gives me 400 hours of DVR recording space. I LOVE MY PACKAGE and have no problem paying the $$ each month...but if you take FOX NEWS out of the Equation I am GONE!
So in checking with Direct I found I can get 1 DVR and 4 TVs with access to it for $58 for the first 12 months....then the bill will be $112 according to the operator I spoke with. But WAIT there's more......I get a $150 Vise Mail in Redemption Card.
So all this debate about saving...not even a real issue unless you are literally watching ALL of the channels.
Those 2 million FOX subscribers that tune into the channel each night...how many are DISH subscribers? and how many are primary watching just FOX. For me I have 6 girls in my house watching other stuff so for them no sweat...but I pay the bill and I WILL make the switch unless Charlie starts talking a little more positive...but I doubt it so I am sure I will have to suffer and go to Directv.


----------



## fitnessCJ

lparsons21 said:


> I keep thinking in the back of my mind that the number of subs that will actually cancel and move on, or never sub to Dish while the FNC fiasco is going on is less significant than the FNC's more passionate and vociferous viewers think it is, or hope it is. And based on the various stories about what is causing this to stretch out, it seems Fox is playing the CNN card with no better luck at moving Charlie and company. And because that movement doesn't seem to be happening with any great speed, I'd say that reinforces the idea that the number of subs isn't all that big a number.
> 
> Beyond that, after the contentious negotiations with CBS that got settled with only a few hours of actual loss of channels, I have to think that Fox is being very hard line, every bit as hard line as Charlie and company get. And I think Fox has possibly overrated their importance, value and numbers. And I think that comes from believing the passionate, vociferous few that live and breathe with FNC's every presentation.
> 
> I know that me and my friends, some of whom are VERY conservative, are not happy with FNC being off Dish but none of them are ready to pull the plug yet. Thinking, correctly I think, that it won't be all that long before they come to terms. BTW, even those very conservative ones get their news from more than one source, not all right-leaning either.


I agree...it will take a few weeks and people will start l;leaving Dish more and more...most have not left in the first instance FOX was off of dish...but people like me...are waiting to see how things go...but I am sorry to say that I feel this si a 3 month or longer blackout. and I have to think most fox viewers will leave!


----------



## fitnessCJ

mitchflorida said:


> You may be right, but Mr. Ergen is really starting to lose it. He is like a poker player on a losing streak.
> 
> On Christmas Eve, for goodness sake, he takes to the airwaves to bitterly call 21st Century Fox an "extortionist" and "hostage-taker" for forcing him to pay more for channels he doesn't want (Fox Sports 1 and 2) in order to get what he does want, Fox News. Isn't that what Dish and the others force us to do: Pay for hundreds of channels we never watch in order to get the few that we do?
> 
> http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/entertainment/television/Dish-Network-claims-extortion-in-Fox-News-carriage-fight.html


Great point---using some of the arguments in here...I could say I am overpaying for my subscription when I watch one channel 90% of the time. FoX news and I am over paying for MSNBC, CNN, CNBC.ect.. I am paying for 99% of channels I do not need!


----------



## tsmacro

fitnessCJ said:


> AND...some are crazy to think you are going to get a cheaper bill due to the CEO going to battle with Fox news....GET REAL MAN! Direct pays the same price that Fox is asking Dish to pay......all this crazy talk about we the customer get savings...blah blah blah....we never know if we get a price based on this theory's. I agree with Mitch...I am not staying with a provider than no longer carries the channel I watch 90% of the time...now THAT WOULD BE CRAZY!


So if it's that important to you switch already, like I said before no one is asking for your loyalty. Luckily for me I have no one channel so important that I can't do without it. As long as I have hundreds of channels of options available to me I always seem to find something that interests me. I can't keep up with everything on my DVR as it is so when channels decide they don't want to stay on my current channel provider, oh well they lose all chance of my eyeballs looking in their direction, their loss not mine.


----------



## KyL416

fitnessCJ said:


> I am waiting a few more days as I am researching the Genie Remote! It looks horrible...scaring me away from Direct at the moment.


You don't have to use that remote, you only need it if you need to use the remote in RF mode. (i.e. if the genie is hidden in a cabinet) In IR mode you can use the standard DirecTV RC6x series remotes or any other universal remote. You could also use the iOS and Android apps as a remote too, if your TV supports HDMI control the app can also turn your TV on and off.


----------



## mitchflorida

Why is the Genie remote any better or worse than any other remote control? I had DTV a couple of years ago and didn't think it was any different than Dish's remote.


----------



## KyL416

The Genie has a remote with no support for extra devices like a BluRay player or AV receiver, TV functions are limited to power and volume, a combined play/pause button, no stop button, rockers for channels and volume, among other things:
http://www.directv.com/technology/remotes


----------



## TimCoh

Just made the move to DTV it is about $8.00 more than Dish in NY. Plus I will get Mets and Yankees. I have been looking to switch since Dish dropped the local sports. Loosing
FNC pushed me to do it. Install is Monday.


----------



## Laxguy

Mine does volume o



KyL416 said:


> The Genie has a remote with no support for extra devices like a BluRay player or AV receiver, TV functions are limited to power and volume, a combined play/pause button, no stop button, rockers for channels and volume, among other things:
> http://www.directv.com/technology/remotes


Mine does volume and on/off on my AVR receiver, and it will switch inputs on the TV. What more would you expect it to do on either? It isn't a universal remote, so doesn't purport to control Blurays.


----------



## KyL416

Laxguy said:


> What more would you expect it to do on either? It isn't a universal remote, so doesn't purport to control Blurays.


Which is the point I was making, it's not a universal remote like the other one, and some people need access to more functions for their TV or AVR than just power, volume and input and might not like having multiple remotes lying around. (i.e. if your tuners are tied up with clients and recordings, you might want to watch something else OTA via your TV or watch a subchannel not in the database, you might need to frequently switch between devices on your AVR if you also have things like a BluRay player and game console connected to it, etc)

Like I posted earlier though, unless you need to use the Genie in RF mode, you can order the previous RC6x series or get your own universal remote.


----------



## inkahauts

fitnessCJ said:


> I doubt that.....Fox viewers are NOT going to tune into those you mentioned. I will watch a movie and go to the Fox News web site and watch as many news clips as I can for now.
> I am waiting a few more days as I am researching the Genie Remote! It looks horrible...scaring me away from Direct at the moment. I liek my Dish but without FOX I wont stay...just the way it will be...I want FOX!


As an aside the genie remote is excellent for me. Some prefer the older one which also works if you don't need RF. But the new remote is so much better at many things. Like volume control.

As for changing, I'd wait longer myself. If they aren't back in two months then maybe consider moving but till then I'd sit tight. This is one I wouldn't be surprised DIRECTV does have issue with. The sports ones have already been hammered out evidently. But the news channels are a different ball of wax.

Of course I'm of the thought that any one channel going off during a disputes is not worth leaving for if you have a temporary workaround which with FOX news you obviously do. It's a matter of when it becomes permanent and this won't be permanent.


----------



## mitchflorida

TimCoh said:


> Just made the move to DTV it is about $8.00 more than Dish in NY. Plus I will get Mets and Yankees. I have been looking to switch since Dish dropped the local sports. Loosing
> FNC pushed me to do it. Install is Monday.


How can DTV cost more than Dish with all the freebies they give new customers? Are you a new Dish subscriber? If so they do charge the early termination fee.


----------



## vroten

Directv gained another subscriber today after my mom and dad bolted due to the Fox News dispute. My dad is older and with his health issues, tv, and his favorite channel Fox News in particular, are very important to him. They had been with Dish for seven years but this channel dispute pushed them over to *D.


----------



## fitnessCJ

James Long said:


> Most people care more about their total bill. If DISH wanted to guarantee the cheapest programming they could charge $10 less than DirecTV for programming and increase receiver charges to cover the loss of income (including charging for the first receiver). Would that make you happy?
> 
> But you should note that the $59.99 prices were and are not just for programming. They are the base price of SERVICE. DISH and DirecTV charge for more than programming in their base prices.
> 
> Lloyd is referring to the total cost of service. The average DISH subscriber paid $84.39 for service each month in 3Q 2014. The average was around $80 for 2013, $77 for 2011 and 2012, $73 for 2010, $70 for 2009. There are obviously personal changes that affect that (eg: people subscribing to lower packages to save money). This is not intended to be an exhaustive explanation of all things related to DISH pricing.
> 
> The fees outside of the "programming package" are part of what people pay - and the full cost matters.


This is not about a cheaper bill bro! This is about the choice to get what channels you want to watch and if someone like EDDY over at Dish wants to tell FOX viewers he is sorry but he has decided not to accept the bill from FOX then he has made a decision to tell his FOX viewers to make a decision!
People are complete Zombies about their bill...I see post about $5 or $10 cheaper from direct to dish...it is nonsense talk ...people care more about how the guide looks, the channels they can get, the feel of the remote, is the menus easy to navigate. Why do you think Cable sucks! I use my cable company for my internet, but I am not even considering them for TV because their Guide, Remote, and DVR is prehistoric. Just saying a lot goes into how one FEELS good about or Justifies How good they feel after deciding what provider they settled on. For the most part they are all Zombies and take who ever knocked on their door. we in these forums are FAR for detailed in what we are getting. I love DISH for everything I get...but Now I have to debate Leaving them for getting everything right but no FOX news. I am not even remotely thinking about a few10 spots on my bill.


----------



## chum76

vroten said:


> Directv gained another subscriber today after my mom and dad bolted due to the Fox News dispute. My dad is older and with his health issues, tv, and his favorite channel Fox News in particular, are very important to him. They had been with Dish for seven years but this channel dispute pushed them over to *D.


Sams club is offering a $300.00 gift card for signing up with Direct TV. I dont know if its due to Fox News or not.


----------



## James Long

fitnessCJ said:


> This is not about a cheaper bill bro! This is about the choice to get what channels you want to watch and if someone like EDDY over at Dish wants to tell FOX viewers he is sorry but he has decided not to accept the bill from FOX then he has made a decision to tell his FOX viewers to make a decision!


For you, on this channel, it is not about a cheaper bill. But for people who do not watch Fox News 90% of the time that is EXACTLY the battle DISH is fighting. In every negotiation DISH is attempting to get the best deal possible. It is the wisest course to take.

If you are asking DISH to just pay whatever every programmer demands for a channel then expect to pay a lot more for the basic programming package that includes Fox News. Not just for Fox News Channel and the rate DISH has agreed to pay Fox for that channel ... but expect to pay for Fox Sports 1 at $5 per month ... and whatever channels ABC/ESPN wants in AT120 at whatever they want per month. Caving to whatever is demanded does not end at Fox and Fox News.

You want your channel back ... and I do not blame you. Fox News will be back on DISH eventually. If you can't wait you can always leave DISH. Your money, your choice.


----------



## James Long

BTW: NewsMax is now on channel 206 in place of Fox Business News (as of 8:41pm ET).


----------



## Jaspear

James Long said:


> For you, on this channel, it is not about a cheaper bill. But for people who do not watch Fox News 90% of the time that is EXACTLY the battle DISH is fighting. In every negotiation DISH is attempting to get the best deal possible. It is the wisest course to take.


It will the wisest course to take until enough people vote with their feet, which of course is exactly what these program providers encourage subscribers to do every time one of these disputes result in a blackout. I suspect this tactic is what annoys Charlie even more than the last minute "gotcha" surprises and makes him dig in even deeper.

If I were running one of these MPVD's,  I would demand contractually, that these negotiations take place early enough so that when providers pull these underhanded stunts, there would be enough time to respond without a blackout.


----------



## nmetro

YEs, it is nice to have gadgets like a DVR, remote and a nice guide. I would say, DISH offers the best guide compared to what I have seen. DIrecTV only offered a 90 minute view as opposed to 3 hours on DISH. And the guide was more faster on DISH (Hopper) than on DirecTV (Genie).

OK. With that said. Having a great DVR, Guide, remote and gadgets is very nice, but when you scan through hundreds of channels and there is nothing one wants to watch, repeats, reality shows, shopping channels, and the like; it does not matter if you have 36 channels or 500 channels. Over the years, content has declined, yet the price ha gone up. I can list the channels I regularly watch; it is certainly a subset of what is on DISH. I also can say, I augment DISH with OTA sub-channels. Something, I would have never thought of doing, when I first subscribed to DISH in 1998.

Since then, there was major consolidation of who owns the cable channels which has resulted in less competition and less variety. SciFI, now SyFy, is a shell of its former self, for example. When a channels dedicated to science fiction and fantasy starts running marathon block of CSI, you can see that even this channel, like A&E, AMC, IFC, History, History 2, and a number of others, whose moniker no longer matches its content.

So, we come to the "news" channels. Honestly, Blaze and Newsmax may be showing more "news" than FOX News, CNN, HEadline News and MSNBC combined. Anyone every try to watch the mainstream "news" chaannels on Sunday night to catch a newscast? You can't. Only Al Jazeeera America has a newscast every two hours; at least that option exits. At least, in Denver, KMGH has a 24 hours news channel on 7.4 and KUSA has 24 hours weather on 9.2.

It is no small wonder people are going to on demand streaming services, and the like. DISH realizes that the cable model is dying. They offer easy integration with OTA; have fro a very long time. Now, they offer easy access to Net Flix. Add Hulu Plus, and you can see the model evolving. Smart TVs provide greater access to streaming services; even low end models. Mr. Ergen has been pushing for ala carte for years and the five or so media giants have been against it.

So, Fox wants more money. If this drags on, they will drag your local FOX affiliate, all FOX sports channels and National Geographic into it. Just like what Tuner did last month. Just like CBS tried to do a couple weeks ago. I expect Viacom, Comcast/NBC, Time-Warner (which includes Turner) and AMC Netwroks again play the raise the price or hold channels hostage game next year. And more of this disputes become disruptive, the more OTA sub-channels and internet streaming services become more appealing.



fitnessCJ said:


> This is not about a cheaper bill bro! This is about the choice to get what channels you want to watch and if someone like EDDY over at Dish wants to tell FOX viewers he is sorry but he has decided not to accept the bill from FOX then he has made a decision to tell his FOX viewers to make a decision!
> People are complete Zombies about their bill...I see post about $5 or $10 cheaper from direct to dish...it is nonsense talk ...people care more about how the guide looks, the channels they can get, the feel of the remote, is the menus easy to navigate. Why do you think Cable sucks! I use my cable company for my internet, but I am not even considering them for TV because their Guide, Remote, and DVR is prehistoric. Just saying a lot goes into how one FEELS good about or Justifies How good they feel after deciding what provider they settled on. For the most part they are all Zombies and take who ever knocked on their door. we in these forums are FAR for detailed in what we are getting. I love DISH for everything I get...but Now I have to debate Leaving them for getting everything right but no FOX news. I am not even remotely thinking about a few10 spots on my bill.


----------



## BobCulp

I have not seen the Dish vs Direct TV about being cheaper AD in a long time. Guess they are almost equal in price. It is good business practice to match an item you got cheaper from a competitor. I don't think Dish or Direct TV will do that. If Dish goes out of business, Direct Tv will raise their rates so high , thanks to no competition. No one wants to see that happen.Without a real channel like Fox News, there is nothing to watch. I could not believe it when CNN-HN 202 does not air news around the clock anymore.


----------



## James Long

BobCulp said:


> Without a real channel like Fox News, there is nothing to watch. I could not believe it when CNN-HN 202 does not air news around the clock anymore.


CNN has taken up the mantle of around the clock news. HN went "entertainment news" a few years ago (and yes, I miss 24/7 headlines). But for at least the past few months CNN is more likely to be live and carrying CNN International during the overnight hours than playing infomercials or reruns of prime time news programming.

Right now CNN is airing live coverage of the search for AirAisa 8501. AJA has news scheduled at 6pm. Fox has their evening news at 6pm ... but where are they overnight?

There are a lot of news specials on AJA and other new news channels. CNN has them too ... but when something is going on (such as this missing flight) they are live from around the world. Where is Fox News at 2am?


----------



## KyL416

CNN actually cancelled what they were going to air and started the CNNI simulcast early. Al Jazeera America dropped all regular programming for the night and simulcasted Al Jazeera English, while they weren't devoting the entire newscast to the story, they did provide regular updates about it as more details became available.

Fox News continued with their regular mix of reruns until Fox & Friends in the morning, msnbc didn't start coverage until 7am ET when they pre-empted their usual weekend Locked Up marathon to start covering it.


----------



## mitchflorida

James Long said:


> CNN has taken up the mantle of around the clock news. HN went "entertainment news" a few years ago (and yes, I miss 24/7 headlines). But for at least the past few months CNN is more likely to be live and carrying CNN International during the overnight hours than playing infomercials or reruns of prime time news programming.
> 
> Right now CNN is airing live coverage of the search for AirAisa 8501. AJA has news scheduled at 6pm. Fox has their evening news at 6pm ... but where are they overnight?
> 
> There are a lot of news specials on AJA and other new news channels. CNN has them too ... but when something is going on (such as this missing flight) they are live from around the world. Where is Fox News at 2am?


Where is Fox News? It sure isn't on Dish.

Headline News was killed by the Internet. If it is 3 am in the morning most people can just check a news website, not have to turn on the tv. CNN has to goose up its low ratings with these around the clock stunts. I think it was a black hole that swallowed the airliner, just like Don Lemon said.


----------



## Slamminc11

mitchflorida said:


> Where is Fox News? It sure isn't on Dish...


and speaking for my household, haven't missed it being gone, so...


----------



## James Long

The point being that even when they were on DISH they seemed to be missing in action. Not worth paying someone to keep the news updated overnight or during non-peak hours. And no flexibility to throw the feed to the international desk when something needed coverage during the wee hours of the morning or on a weekend.

It is easy to attack what one cannot do.


----------



## Laxguy

nmetro said:


> YEs, it is nice to have gadgets like a DVR, remote and a nice guide. I would say, DISH offers the best guide compared to what I have seen. DIrecTV only offered a 90 minute view as opposed to 3 hours on DISH. And the guide was more faster on DISH (Hopper) than on DirecTV (Genie).


Faster Guide?? DIRECTV's Guides on Genies are as fast as necessary; you can take in only so much at a time. And three hours in a block suits some, not others. Some of us do not spend much time in the Guide, relying on Smart Search or knowledge of direct access to favored sections of the Guide. Not to mention custom guides, which I assume Dish offers as well.


----------



## mitchflorida

James Long said:


> The point being that even when they were on DISH they seemed to be missing in action. Not worth paying someone to keep the news updated overnight or during non-peak hours. And no flexibility to throw the feed to the international desk when something needed coverage during the wee hours of the morning or on a weekend.
> 
> It is easy to attack what one cannot do.


I think you have your facts wrong. When there is important news to report, Fox will report it. Not some hyped story about a missing airplane. And I told you before it may have been swallowed by a black hole per CNN's Don Lemon.

Fox News actually has a sister network in Europe called Sky News and they do throw coverage there on important events if they don't have someone on the scene.


----------



## mitchflorida

Laxguy said:


> Faster Guide?? DIRECTV's Guides on Genies are as fast as necessary; you can take in only so much at a time. And three hours in a block suits some, not others. Some of us do not spend much time in the Guide, relying on Smart Search or knowledge of direct access to favored sections of the Guide. Not to mention custom guides, which I assume Dish offers as well.


DTV's guide was superior to Dish. If there was a movie with a special actor or actress you liked, you could just click on her name and see every movie she ever made along with the dates and time her movies would be showing. You click on that and you have set up the recording. Dish has nothing like that. It wasn't a deal breaker for me, but DTV's guide was superior in that way.


----------



## KyL416

What the heck is your obsession with an out of context quote by Don Lemon? He wasn't even doing the coverage when the news broke overnight, they were using CNN International's anchors and correspondants.

As for it not being major breaking news, the 3rd plane going missing in one year from that country isn't enough to qualify as breaking news? I'm sure those family members still waiting at the airport for any news would beg to differ. At the time we didn't know the nationality of any of the passengers, and with the melting pot that is our country it's very possible they have family members here. Should CNN USA have just stuck with the John Walsh and Anthony Bourdain reruns on the schedule because it wasn't directly affecting our country and limit the coverage to CNN International, a channel that has very little carriage inside the USA outside of Time Warner Cable, FiOS, U-Verse, Cox and some other smaller providers?



mitchflorida said:


> Fox News actually has a sister network in Europe called Sky News and they do throw coverage there on important events if they don't have someone on the scene.


The hacking scandal forced News Corp to drop their bid to take over BSkyB and they just have a very small minority ownership in the company, Sky News still has more ties to CBS News than they do with Fox News. The last time I saw Sky News on Fox News Channel was for early coverage of the arrivals for the Royal Wedding before they switched to their own coverage for the actual ceremony, if you can point to a time they simulcasted it since then for overnight breaking news, feel free to do so.


----------



## James Long

KyL416 said:


> The last time I saw Sky News on Fox News Channel was for early coverage of the arrivals for the Royal Wedding before they switched to their own coverage for the actual ceremony, if you can point to a time they simulcasted it since then for overnight breaking news, feel free to do so.


Fox News Channel is what it is ... a domestic news channel that serves the desires of their viewers. Where they fail is among non-viewers ... which may sound strange, but when something happens in the world people who do not spend their lives tuned to news channels generally look to CNN.

It is a decent and popular channel ... and it should be carried by DISH. If only Fox would not try to use it as leverage to raise the rates on other Fox channels.


----------



## mitchflorida

If Viacom and Time Warner and CBS all use "bundling" as leverage , why shouldn't Fox? That is the way the game is played and to single out Fox when all of the major content providers do so is unfair. I mean Viacom is the worst offender , they have an almost unlimited supply of garbage channels. MTV2 , even MTV Jams, VH1 Classic Rock , Logo, etc.




MTV
MTV2
MTV Desi
MTV Hits
MTV Jams
mtvU
VH1
VH1 Classic
VH1 Soul
CMT
CMT Pure Country
CMT (Canada) (10%)
Logo
Palladia

[*]Nickelodeon

Nick 2/Nick at Nite
Nick Jr. (Previously known as *Noggin* from February 2, 1999 until its relaunch September 28, 2009 as *Nick Jr.*)
TeenNick (Previously known as *The N* from April 1, 2002 until its relaunch September 28, 2009 as *TeenNick*)
Nicktoons
Nick Gas (1999 -2009)
NickMom

[*]Entertainment Group

TV Land
Comedy Central
Spike

[*]BET Networks

BET
BET Hip-Hop
BET Gospel
Centric


----------



## James Long

mitchflorida said:


> If Viacom and Time Warner and CBS all use "bundling" as leverage , why shouldn't Fox? That is the way the game is played and to single out Fox when all of the major content providers do so is unfair. I mean Viacom is the worst offender , they have an almost unlimited supply of garbage channels. MTV2 , even MTV Jams, VH1 Classic Rock , Logo, etc.


We are mentioning Fox because they have decided to take their turn to withhold content as leverage. The others had their turn and will have their turn again at their next renewal cycle. Should Fox be immune to having their use of leverage pointed out?

It is also interesting to note how few of the "garbage channels" you list are on DISH. Perhaps next renewal ... but Viacom does not seem to be forcing those channels on to DISH Network.

Do you believe it is fair for Fox to force DISH to stop paying their existing negotiated rates for Speed and Fuel (now marketed as Fox Sports 1 and Fox Sports 2) and pay much higher rates? Or is it a situation of "pay whatever it takes to get MY channel back"?


----------



## KyL416

Because unlike Viacom which grouped them together, all of Fox's contracts are not up for renewal. ONLY Fox News and Fox Business are up for renewal right now, not Fox Sports, not Fox Entertainment, not Fox Broadcasting.

As for "garbage" channels? Their ratings would beg to differ, just because you may not personally like them doesn't mean they aren't popular among their respective target audiences.

Their 24/7 music video channels MTV Jams, MTV Hits, VH1 Soul, mtvU, CMT Pure Country, BET Gospel and BET Hip-Hop aren't even on Dish. Nick 2 is the west coast feed of Nickelodeon, Nick Mom is the overnight block on Nick Jr. MTV Desi doesn't exist anymore, it was replaced by MTV India and is only available if you subscribe to one of the international Hindi packages, Nick GAS doesn't exist anymore, CMT Canada isn't even available in the USA.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

KyL416 said:


> Because unlike Viacom which grouped them together, all of Fox's contracts are not up for renewal. ONLY Fox News and Fox Business are up for renewal right now, not Fox Sports, not Fox Entertainment, not Fox Broadcasting.


Perhaps, but the rumor mill has it churning that FOX is using the News channel contract to try and get more money for FOX Sports 1/2 because they previously were unable to get money for those like they wanted.

Similar to what Turner did... allowing a bunch of their channels to drop from Dish for a few weeks because they wanted more for TNT/TBS when those contracts came up. In the Turner dispute, both Turner and Dish agreed to an extension past the TNT/TBS contract so now all of the Turner channels should be on a single contract whenever they do that deal next year.

FOX is doing the same thing, per the rumors, in asking more for channels already under contract by not renewing FOX News or FOX Business. It doesn't sound like FOX actually wants more for their news channels BUT they are holding them hostage while asking for more money for other channels that Dish is already carrying.

It is a rumor... partially substantiated by Charlie... and I haven't heard FOX squash the rumor... so it might not be true, but it sure seems likely since FOX already tried the same stunt when college football season started this year and they were going to pull some game feeds from Dish on FOX Sports 1 unless Dish paid more... and Dish apparently negotiated a deal there... but now it appears to be FOX Sports 2 turn at bat for more money, but this time FOX is playing the switcheroo of saying pay us more for FS2 or you can't have FOX News at any price.

IF this rumor turns out to be true, it is ironically the kind of story that FOX News really should cover and expose their ownership of playing dirty... but then no one on Dish would see the coverage until the channel comes back.


----------



## mitchflorida

Do either of you work for Dish? Your answers don't make any sense.  Is Fox a hard bargainer? Yes. Is Charlie a tough bargainer? Yes, but he may have met his match. You are uninformed if you think what Fox is doing is "dirty" or "unethical". Fox wants to get as much of its investment back as possible. Charlie Ergen wants Dish to pay as little as possible.

If Fox is really a bunch of "extortionists" and "hostage-takers", let Dish file a lawsuit and report Fox to the FBI. Charlie will do neither because he is just shooting off his mouth out of frustration of all the financial losses he is taking through bad judgement.

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done


----------



## patmurphey

Of course it is extortion to hold a popular channel hostage to break a contract for unpopular channels that now have the burden of sports costs. Nobody has said that it is criminal extortion. It is an ugly way to do business, but it will never be seen in court.

Sadly Dish has more to lose. FoxNews is popular on Dish, but the Dish viewers are a relatively small part of The overall viewership. I wont leave Dish, I like the Hopper system too much, but I am considering a DirecTV non DVR hookup for our family room TV with a $25 a month promotional cost for a year. (We only watch FoxNews live.) I'll decide how to deal with my options after the year is up.

I will always blame 20th Century Fox for the monetary and quality of life cost.


----------



## mitchflorida

patmurphey said:


> Of course it is extortion to hold a popular channel hostage to break a contract for unpopular channels that now have the burden of sports costs. Nobody has said that it is criminal extortion. It is an ugly way to do business, but it will never be seen in court.
> 
> Sadly Dish has more to lose. FoxNews is popular on Dish, but the Dish viewers are a relatively small part of The overall viewership. I wont leave Dish, I like the Hopper system too much, but I am considering a DirecTV non DVR hookup for our family room TV with a $25 a month promotional cost for a year. (We only watch FoxNews live.) I'll decide how to deal with my options after the year is up.
> 
> I will always blame 20th Century Fox for the monetary and quality of life cost.


It's 21st Century Fox now.


----------



## Jaspear

mitchflorida said:


> Do either of you work for Dish? Your answers don't make any sense.  Is Fox a hard bargainer? Yes. Is Charlie a tough bargainer? Yes, but he may have met his match. You are uninformed if you think what Fox is doing is "dirty" or "unethical". Fox wants to get as much of its investment back as possible. Charlie Ergen wants Dish to pay as little as possible.


I have no doubt Charlie is willing to negotiate an increase for the channels Fox made those investments in, _just as soon as those channels come up for renewal._ The suits at Fox figured they could do whatever they wanted and get the MPVD's to role over and make changes to the FS1, FS2, and FXX contracts early so they wouldn't lose access to FNC.

It may eventually work, but not without some unanticipated pain at Fox 21.


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## inkahauts

Yep, this is no different than a couple years ago when FOX tried like crazy to get all new contracts for the upcoming FOX sports channels that where coming from other rebranded channels and everyone balked because FOX didn't have the leverage to make that happen. They are taking every opportunity to revisit that and get that done anytime anything else is up for renewal.

What they are doing may not be unethical, although its close, but it is without a doubt disingenuous...

And don't forget, FOX is the company that also blacks out some games on its rsns for dish customers because dish won't pay more now that those rsns have added a bunch more games for those channels. There's a couple markets that is happening in. Wouldn't be one bit surprised that is part of this as well. 

That is outright ridiculous imho. Just because you add more games should not mean you should get more money before the contract is up. But it also means dish must have foolishly signed a contract that said they could do just that!


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## fitnessCJ

inkahauts said:


> Yep, this is no different than a couple years ago when FOX tried like crazy to get all new contracts for the upcoming FOX sports channels that where coming from other rebranded channels and everyone balked because FOX didn't have the leverage to make that happen. They are taking every opportunity to revisit that and get that done anytime anything else is up for renewal.
> 
> What they are doing may not be unethical, although its close, but it is without a doubt disingenuous...
> 
> And don't forget, FOX is the company that also blacks out some games on its rsns for dish customers because dish won't pay more now that those rsns have added a bunch more games for those channels. There's a couple markets that is happening in. Wouldn't be one bit surprised that is part of this as well.
> 
> That is outright ridiculous imho. Just because you add more games should not mean you should get more money before the contract is up. But it also means dish must have foolishly signed a contract that said they could do just that!


Is this the definition when I wanted to watch A Tigers game this fall and it was blocked on my Dish channel ? I live 2.5 hours north of Detroit! Please let me know if I can add fuel to the Leave DISH Fire....question in the end is would that have happened to me if I was a Direct customer? It was a regular season game near the end of the year.


----------



## inkahauts

fitnessCJ said:


> Is this the definition when I wanted to watch A Tigers game this fall and it was blocked on my Dish channel ? I live 2.5 hours north of Detroit! Please let me know if I can add fuel to the Leave DISH Fire....question in the end is would that have happened to me if I was a Direct customer? It was a regular season game near the end of the year.


Likely not as they do their agreements a bit different. I've never heard of them having that same issue.


----------



## epokopac

"And don't forget, FOX is the company that also blacks out some games on its rsns for dish customers because dish won't pay more now that those rsns have added a bunch more games for those channels. There's a couple markets that is happening in. Wouldn't be one bit surprised that is part of this as well."

Atlanta DMA (Braves) is one of those markets. MLB Strike Zone and/or MLB Tonight keep me up to date on any Braves games that Fox blacks out. Two years so far; not sure how many more years remain before this "Fox stunt" comes to an end (usually darkens about a third of the scheduled games.) Fox's greed knows NO bounds!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

The "extortion" in this case is not illegal... it might even be arguable as to whether or not it is unethical... but it isn't good business if you ask me. Think about what FOX is establishing here.

Dish negotiates a contract for channel A... then later for channel B... and still later channel C. Three different contracts all of which agreed to by both Dish and FOX.

Now... FOX decides to change the content on channel C and goes back to Dish and asks for more money. Dish says, not now, you decided to make the change we can revisit when the channel C contract is up.

FOX waits... then when channel A is up for renewal, FOX says "if you want channel A you have to pay for channel A... AND you have to pay us more for channel C too." Dish says "what the heck?"

It's bad enough that companies want an increase every time their channels are up for renewal... but IF a precedent is established where not only do you ask for an increase on that channel BUT also on channels under different contracts... that would be nasty for Dish, DirecTV, and every other company!

Do you think it would stop here? No, next time the next contract is up, FOX would do it again... holding another channel under the fire to get more for a different channel not otherwise part of that contract.

This is not a good thing to establish as a way of doing business for any company... and if this is what is happening now, and FOX doesn't seem to be denying it... then shame on FOX and I hope Dish sticks to their guns and just negotiates for the channels that are not already under contract.


----------



## inkahauts

Stewart Vernon said:


> The "extortion" in this case is not illegal... it might even be arguable as to whether or not it is unethical... but it isn't good business if you ask me. Think about what FOX is establishing here.
> 
> Dish negotiates a contract for channel A... then later for channel B... and still later channel C. Three different contracts all of which agreed to by both Dish and FOX.
> 
> Now... FOX decides to change the content on channel C and goes back to Dish and asks for more money. Dish says, not now, you decided to make the change we can revisit when the channel C contract is up.
> 
> FOX waits... then when channel A is up for renewal, FOX says "if you want channel A you have to pay for channel A... AND you have to pay us more for channel C too." Dish says "what the heck?"
> 
> It's bad enough that companies want an increase every time their channels are up for renewal... but IF a precedent is established where not only do you ask for an increase on that channel BUT also on channels under different contracts... that would be nasty for Dish, DirecTV, and every other company!
> 
> Do you think it would stop here? No, next time the next contract is up, FOX would do it again... holding another channel under the fire to get more for a different channel not otherwise part of that contract.
> 
> This is not a good thing to establish as a way of doing business for any company... and if this is what is happening now, and FOX doesn't seem to be denying it... then shame on FOX and I hope Dish sticks to their guns and just negotiates for the channels that are not already under contract.


I agree.


----------



## chum76

Several months back my Grandmothers cable company took off GSN and replaced it with FXX plus there was a monthly $2.50 sports surcharge added to her bill at the same time. I bet they signed the same deal with Fox.


----------



## TechnoCat

Stewart Vernon said:


> Hypothetical negotiations follow...
> 
> FOX asks DirecTV to pay 50 cents per channel per month... DirecTV agrees. Time Warner comes up for negotiation, they are already paying 35 cents and they are willing to pay the 50 cents they know DirecTV is paying but FOX wants them to pay 60 cents. Eventually they agree to pay 55 cents. AT&T comes up... similar negotiations, and AT&T ends up paying 60 cents... and so forth... so by the time the Dish contract comes up (may be several years between these various company contracts expiring) FOX is asking Dish to pay 75 cents per channel. Dish says, but DirecTV is only paying 50 cents and we should get the same rate as them... FOX has been inching this up over various contracts and providers for a couple of years and wants more... and knows IF they don't push Dish above 50 cents they will have a hard time pushing DirecTV in the next negotiation.


I don't know how Fox structures things, but I do know how a few other media companies do it, and how affiliates (carriers - Dish, Comcast, etc.) pay for it for some. Each contract is not only confidential, but treated extremely confidential. Even if you work for the companies, the details are firewalled off. And the terms aren't generally the same either... different bundlings, different quantity subscriber discounts. Partially because the affiliates vary in size so much. Also marketing dollars (essentially kick backs) can gloss over a lot. And the big elephant that gets overlooked is this... suppose Fox IS charging DirectTV, say, 0.50/channel/sub. And Dish flat out refuses. And suppose Dish offers Fox a guarantee of 8 million subs at 0.40 per by bundling as needed. Fox would be throwing away $3.2 million/month in a quest to get roughly $700,000 more a month through their higher fees.

So what probably will happen is Fox will have a lower rate, but with some offsetting condition, for Dish, OR Dish will give them the book rate they want while Dish retains fuller control - ability to stream it on Dish Anywhere, skip commercials and confine it to the higher packages. And this will work for everyone because it's a completely different set of terms than Direct, Comcast or AT&T/Univerz have, so it will prevent future comparisons.


----------



## fitnessCJ

mitchflorida said:


> I think you have your facts wrong. When there is important news to report, Fox will report it. Not some hyped story about a missing airplane. And I told you before it may have been swallowed by a black hole per CNN's Don Lemon.
> 
> Fox News actually has a sister network in Europe called Sky News and they do throw coverage there on important events if they don't have someone on the scene.


I AGREEE ! ! ! Without FOX I did tune into CNN yesterday and I looked at my wife and said WTHec....they are running the missing plane news 24/7 ? ? ? You could not get a peep for any mention of any other news. IMHO - these other news channels are just looking to grasp at a ratings and they know people will gravitate towards another missing plane. How long can you speculate on NO NEWS on the plane all day long? personally I do not want to watch that. And when there was the Gruber videos leaked....no coverage of that. Fox catches it all and I believe it is the best coverage about the important news we can get. And I will tell you one last reason I think FOX is best.....it has to do with delivering the news with personality. I miss the FIVE because I think Kimberly Guilfoyl is the BOMB. Then Dana is so calm and delivers great points. She and Bob have both had experience working inside the White House with Administrations and they go at it at times. Then comes the humor of the show - Greg Gutfeld...this guy is hilarious in his delivery of his opinion.. I love watching the show for the personalities of who is on it versus just the news. Then I have Special report at 6 pm and I get the NEWS as I believe it is delivered. Just saying in the end I think FOX is winning due to the personalities they have running each and every hour of the day. The Kelly File is awesome and look what Greta did for that Marine kept in Mexico. Andrea Tantaros ! ! ! I WANT MY FOX NEWS BACK!


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## mitchflorida

It will be resolved by the middle of February. Just a hunch. What do others think?


----------



## fudpucker

On the topic of DTV vs. Dish costs: I switched to DTV from Dish this fall, purely because I wanted Sunday Ticket and could no longer get it via PS3, etc. And I asked a bazillion questions, probably irritated a lot of people here and on the DTV forums, as I am pretty anal about researching stuff (just ask my wife!  ) For the programming we watch, and a Genie plus 2 Minis, after the promotional stuff runs out, the cost was pretty much the same. Maybe $3 more on DTV. Of course, for 2 years it is significantly cheaper with the 2 year promo.

I prefer some things about the Dish guide, especially the 3 hour width, but agree there are very cool options on the Genie guide. They are different, each has its plusses and minuses.

I had DTV from 1995 to 2009, Dish from 2009 to August of this year. In the short time I had Dish it sure felt like there was non stop blackout threats, from AMC to my Fox and CBS channels, etc. I don't even know the name of the Directv CEO but I sure know Charlie's name - he just seems to be more ego driven.

And lastly yeah, my bills were lower back in the 90s and early 2000, and yeah I got less channels, but my 200 and 250 packages only have about 50 channels I watch. My "Favorites" guide only shows about 1/3 of the actual channels in the package. So for me, the whole 250 or 300 or whatever channels is pretty irrelevant.


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## pinkertonfloyd

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As pointed out earlier by another poster, Dish is at best around $2 cheaper a month.
> 
> And considering that Dish always seems to have channels blacked out, that is probably where the $2 savings comes from.
> 
> DirecTV rarely has blackouts.
> 
> Is it really worth all this anguish for a $2 a month savings?


As someone who switched from Directv to Dish in the last year, I can tell you it's more than $2 savings... I was being forced to pay a $3/month "sports recovery fee" alone. Packages semm close, but the surcharges at Directv add up quite quick.

Even taking out the $30/mo discount for the first year, I'm saving $20/mo over Directv, and getting more features (Hopper, Dish Anywhere), than Directv had. This is Two rooms, one Hopper, one SuperJoey, I had a Directv 2 Tuner DVR and a HD Bedroom before, went from Choice+, to AT200... which are very comparable packages.

Directv lost me when they started charging me $10/mo for HD, when I had "HD for Life", then told me I was correct, but since I didn't catch it for 60 days, that they couldn't "fix" it, and I lost HD for life because of this ("You should have called us sooner, as we could have fixed it last month"), as they couldn't add that feature anymore (and this is what the Customer Retention Supervisor told me). Funny thing was the rep when I called to cancel and said I was going to dish, she told me how much dish was for receiver fees, etc... all where about 150% higher than the real fees were at Dish...

Basically though, the whole industry plays FUD against each other... which is why all carriers are in the bottom basement for customer satisfaction.


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## fudpucker

Frankly, I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to satellite providers. I had Directv from 1995 to 2009 and was pretty happy with them. I only switched to Dish, reluctantly, when I moved and DTV didn't carry the local networks in HD (since resolved) and I did not want to watch network TV in SD. Once I got used to the differences, I was pretty happy with Dish, other than Charlie's apparent lack of finesse in doing deals, and only switched this year because I wanted NFL Sunday Ticket and Directv was the only way to get it.

I'm pretty happy with the Genie plus two mini system, again, each provider has "their way" and each has some advantages and disadvantages. I was actually able to drop down a level in programming (I'm in the 200+ channel category) because the 200+ programming on Directv carried all the channels we watch (plus some cool ones not on Dish) whereas the channels I wanted were only available in the 250 channel package on Dish. Like most people, of those I only really watch about 50 or so, so the key is getting those 50 or so. My cost for the first two years, the promotional cost of course, is about $40 a month cheaper than my Dish bill, and in two years, when the promo is over, the cost is pretty close to the same. I'm looking at final, what do I pay each month including everything costs.

I'm pretty realistic/cynical when it comes to these guys (Directv and Dish.) They are big corporations making a lot of money, with the #1 goal of making the stock holders happy and the CEOs richer. They will both charge us as much as they can get away with, and if either gets too far out of line vs. the other they know they'll lose subscribers, so they aren't going to get too far apart. When one of them gets a whole house DVR system the other has to have one ASAP, etc. Been watching the war between the two for many, MANY years.  They don't fight with channel providers because of us, the subscriber - they do it for the CEO and execs and stock holders. I have found I can be pretty happy with either of them, and I only move when programming dictates it (HD locals, NFL Sunday ticket, etc,) I think the fights and arguments people have over Dish vs. Directv are misplaced; both will raise our prices as quickly as we allow them to, both will chase each other, neither is going to do anything radical for "us."

FWIW


----------



## tampa8

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> As pointed out earlier by another poster, Dish is at best around $2 cheaper a month.
> 
> And considering that Dish always seems to have channels blacked out, that is probably where the $2 savings comes from.
> 
> DirecTV rarely has blackouts.
> 
> Is it really worth all this anguish for a $2 a month savings?


Why not do some of your own research instead of making things up? Most (by far) DISH customers have VIP receivers, and with up to three rooms pay from $13 to $20 less with DISH over Direct TV. That range is dependant on how many rooms and if you pay a surcharge for Sports with Direct something Direct just expanded to more markets.


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## Stewart Vernon

Following up an earlier post/question of my own...

I forgot I still had the "We Dish You a Merry Christmas" on my 922 DVR... and I checked, and sure enough, a couple of segments before Alan Thick there are the FOX & Friends people singing along... so I was right, they were airing a version with them before the FOX news channels went dark in the dispute... now they only air a changed version that doesn't contain the FOX folks.


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## mwdxer

I don't know how a provider can charge a subscriber a surcharge fee for a sports channel. What if you don't want the sports channel? You have to go down to a smaller package just to avoid the surcharge? That is crazy. I wish all of the sports channels were in a separate package. Many of us do not care about sports and yet we pay through the nose as they charge more than any other channel. No wonder many people are becoming cord cutters.


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## tigerwillow1

I have the same bogus surcharge beef with Sirius. If you do an ala carte subscription with no music stations, guess what? You still have to pay the music royalty fee.


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## fudpucker

tampa8 said:


> Why not do some of your own research instead of making things up? Most (by far) DISH customers have VIP receivers, and with up to three rooms pay from $13 to $20 less with DISH over Direct TV. That range is dependant on how many rooms and if you pay a surcharge for Sports with Direct something Direct just expanded to more markets.


Where did that $20 more number come from? When I switched from Directv to Dish, with 3 receivers, my bill absolutely did not go down $20 a month, not even $10. As I recall it was pretty much a wash. And switching this fall from Dish to Directv, figured after my promo runs out in two years, my total bill (not counting Sunday Ticket) is also pretty much even. And of course, for two years my bill is about $40 a month less with the promo they gave me.


----------



## Paul Secic

fudpucker said:


> On the topic of DTV vs. Dish costs: I switched to DTV from Dish this fall, purely because I wanted Sunday Ticket and could no longer get it via PS3, etc. And I asked a bazillion questions, probably irritated a lot of people here and on the DTV forums, as I am pretty anal about researching stuff (just ask my wife!  ) For the programming we watch, and a Genie plus 2 Minis, after the promotional stuff runs out, the cost was pretty much the same. Maybe $3 more on DTV. Of course, for 2 years it is significantly cheaper with the 2 year promo.
> 
> I prefer some things about the Dish guide, especially the 3 hour width, but agree there are very cool options on the Genie guide. They are different, each has its plusses and minuses.
> 
> I had DTV from 1995 to 2009, Dish from 2009 to August of this year. In the short time I had Dish it sure felt like there was non stop blackout threats, from AMC to my Fox and CBS channels, etc. I don't even know the name of the Directv CEO but I sure know Charlie's name - he just seems to be more ego driven.
> 
> And lastly yeah, my bills were lower back in the 90s and early 2000, and yeah I got less channels, but my 200 and 250 packages only have about 50 channels I watch. My "Favorites" guide only shows about 1/3 of the actual channels in the package. So for me, the whole 250 or 300 or whatever channels is pretty irrelevant.


I never switch.


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## Orion9

If I didn't visit this forum, I would have been aware of one channel dispute since I started using Dish in ~2000, and I wouldn't know the name of anyone at Dish. It seems to me that discussions about disputes, personalities, financial details of contracts (much of which appear to be pure guesses) are a feature of specialized forums. Among all the satellite owners I know of in normal life (outside the internet) none of this stuff ever makes it into conversation. So, I think for the typical person that just pays for some TV service and doesn't hang around forums, the "dispute level" is probably about "right".


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## lparsons21

Yeah, a lot of us find out about these things on the various forums that deal with it.

I was reminded about how fairly trivial this particular brouhaha is the other day at breakfast. About 10 of us old geezers went to one of the local greasy spoons for breakfast and to commiserate about the weather being too damned cold for any golf. One of the guys brought this up as he is a fair far-right type of guy and watches Fox News a lot.

The others were like me, we watch most of the news channels off and on during the day but aren't all that enamored of any of the 24/7 news as entertainment channels. So for us it is much ado about not much at all!!


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## Jaspear

Stewart Vernon said:


> Following up an earlier post/question of my own...
> 
> I forgot I still had the "We Dish You a Merry Christmas" on my 922 DVR... and I checked, and sure enough, a couple of segments before Alan Thick there are the FOX & Friends people singing along... so I was right, they were airing a version with them before the FOX news channels went dark in the dispute... now they only air a changed version that doesn't contain the FOX folks.


Yep, they don't have the right to air it, even a clip. Or, at the least, they don't want Fox throwing even that small clip back in their face.


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## anex80

fudpucker said:


> Where did that $20 more number come from? When I switched from Directv to Dish, with 3 receivers, my bill absolutely did not go down $20 a month, not even $10. As I recall it was pretty much a wash. And switching this fall from Dish to Directv, figured after my promo runs out in two years, my total bill (not counting Sunday Ticket) is also pretty much even. And of course, for two years my bill is about $40 a month less with the promo they gave me.


I agree, I don't see where this $20-$30 number keeps coming from either. The attached shows both providers with packages and 2015 price rates (including the planned rate hikes for both).

As you can see, pretty comparable with just a few dollars difference here and there.


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## lparsons21

You forgot the $10 HD fee that D* has after a 2 year contract.


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## anex80

lparsons21 said:


> You forgot the $10 HD fee that D* has after a 2 year contract.


That's included in their new pricing structure, they just charge a receiver fee for each outlet now. If you're on the old structure, which I still am, it would be $10 DVR fee and $10 HD fee with first receiver free. So $21.50 for 1 receiver under new plan or $20 for 1 receiver under old plan.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TechnoCat

tigerwillow1 said:


> I have the same bogus surcharge beef with Sirius. If you do an ala carte subscription with no music stations, guess what? You still have to pay the music royalty fee.


Yes, but you can negotiate pretty much everything. I do it, scorched-earth style, every year. Sometimes they throw in traffic free (my receiver is my Audi) or charge half the book price, but there's always a deal to be had.

I suspect, actually, that I did something like this with Dish years ago because I've got a pretty good package, which they can't modify, billed as America's Choice or something like that, a lower-level package despite me getting a lot more than they list in it. But with Dish it just stays there until I want new channels. No yearly Sirius-like fight.


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## eudoxia

Happy New Year :blowout:
My wish for this new year is that you guys get your Fox News back. Despite my strong personal feelings regarding corporate "news" and Fox's role in the polarization of the country, you guys pay for the channels and deserve to get them back, been too long.

Plus how else am I going to get in fights with my Dad the next family gathering :bang


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## Jaspear

It looks like this dispute is having a negative ratings impact on Fox:

Dish Network Blackout: Fox News Ratings Take Hit As Nasty Carriage Dispute Continues



> For the week ended Dec. 28, the first full week since the blackout began, Fox News averaged 939,000 prime-time viewers. That's down from 1.65 million viewers the previous week and 1.68 million the week before that, according to data from Nielsen Media.
> 
> Viewership for news programming is often unpredictable from week to week, and Christmas week tends to be a slow news period. But Fox's prime-time ratings are down almost 12 percent when compared to the same week last year, when it averaged 1.06 million viewers. That makes sense: Dish Network has a market share of about 13.4 percent of the pay-TV industry.
> 
> Fox News viewership is also down in the key 25-54 demo, though not as drastically. The network averaged 160,000 weekly viewers in the demo, compared to 175,000 for the same week last year.


Is this enough to get some compromise From Fox? Next week's numbers should be more significant, as the news cycle gets back to non holiday mode.

Thanks for keeping this thread open. Those "guys" have a bad case of hair trigger disease.


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## Stewart Vernon

IF the dispute were about FOX wanting more money for FOX News/Business... then a drop in ratings might shake them a little and make them come back to the table with a new/lower offer for Dish... and that might resolve things.

BUT... the problem here seems to not be wanting more for FOX News... but rather wanting more for FOX Sports... FOX is trying to shoehorn a new price for channels still under contract and using FOX News as leverage... so having made THAT particular decision, FOX would already have known about a possible ratings decline and factored that into their strategy... and they probably are hoping those viewers will be vocal enough to push Dish while Dish is not talking with FOX.

So... in a normal negotiation, lower ratings would force their hand... but this isn't normal negotiation... so I doubt FOX thinks twice about it. Unfortunately for FOX News viewers, I could see this debate dragging out and getting nasty before it gets resolved. I wouldn't be surprised if FOX waits for the FOX Sports 1/2 contract to expire and then bundle everything in a proper package to negotiate with Dish... and I bet Dish will be just fine waiting that out too.


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## lparsons21

What is going to be interesting to see if FNC stays off for quite awhile is exactly how many bail on Dish. I think it would be less than 100K, FNC fans are convinced that number is too low. But they overrate the influence FNC has, instead relying on fan passion and seeing how vociferous they can be.


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## toricred

I am a fan of FNC, but I just don't see leaving Dish over it. Fox is being ridiculous about this and should be sued nearly out of existence for bringing the Fox Sports channels into this. I certainly won't leave Dish, but if it takes long to come back I might not be watching FNC when it does return.


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## mitchflorida

Probably the real Fox News fans have left Dish by now. Others are just calling up to get lots of credit for not having Dish.

The major damage to Dish has been done and it will level off. I still don't think Fox gives a hoot at this point and they think Dish will eventually come back to the table and compromise. I think it will be at the end of February until they reach an agreement.

Dish is guilty of too many outages, at the same time they are hitting us with yet another price increase. Dish used to be at least $10 cheaper than DTV, I see that now being about $2 cheaper, which is nothing to brag about.


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## Jaspear

Stewart Vernon said:


> So... in a normal negotiation, lower ratings would force their hand... but this isn't normal negotiation... so I doubt FOX thinks twice about it. Unfortunately for FOX News viewers, I could see this debate dragging out and getting nasty before it gets resolved. I wouldn't be surprised if FOX waits for the FOX Sports 1/2 contract to expire and then bundle everything in a proper package to negotiate with Dish... and I bet Dish will be just fine waiting that out too.


Unfortunately, these type of negotiations are becoming more normal as the pressure on the distribution system increases. Do you know when the Fox Sports contract expires? If it's in the next couple of months, I agree. Longer than that, who knows? We might suddenly see a deal that resolves everything, complete with the magical seven day Auto Hop delay for Fox affiliates!


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## Stewart Vernon

_I just cleaned up a bunch of posts that were either political, attacking other forum members, or both. Please stay on the topic and off each other and off politics. Repeat offenders might find themselves unable to continue participation in the thread. Back to topic now. Thanks!_


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## JTG

This morning after doing some research I spoke to our local DBS installer, he is the man that helped me convert from C-Band Satellite to Dish back when Dish was brand new....that is how long I've been a customer. My 10 ft. C-band dish is now the roof of a Gazebo on our backyard, LOL.
We spent about 20 minutes going over my stuff, including the research I've done. At the moment, it doesn't make sense for me to change to Direct, which is, unfortunately, my only viable option...right now.
This is based on more than just cost. He told me he has swapped out about half a dozen people in the past week, and has several more that are on the verge.
So, Dish and Direct have the market cornered, for now, in my neck of the woods, for what I need...but that won't always be the case.
In July other options are coming, and I will remember this. I will look into them, and hopefully find one that is a better fit for my needs.
I won't forget this. I am tired of the eternal game, no matter who is playing at the table with Dish there seems to be a proclivity to take things to an extreme.
After leaving his shop I had to go to the local hospital to get some blood drawn. The gal doing it was making conversation and she popped up out of the blue with,
"My husband spent over 45 minutes on the phone with Dish yesterday trying to cancel our service. We are not on a contract, and this person was rude, talked over him, and actually came close to calling him a liar. Finally I got on the phone and said, "well, I am going to stop paying the bill, and I have your name. I need the boxes to return your property to you. Will you send them or not?"
She said when she made that statement he finally began to act like he was listening to her, 45 minutes into the conversation.
Customer service.
So, I will wait. Like many others. I will continue to pay for a service I am not receiving, and will be part of the group of people who simply don't have a lot of goodwill towards DishNetwork. And as options appear, I will examine each and every one of them.
And I can guarantee you that if I ever make the call to cut the cord from them, it will be recorded. I will notify their representative it is being recorded. I hope that person is wise enough to understand, and proceeds in a professional manner.


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## Stewart Vernon

Jaspear said:


> Unfortunately, these type of negotiations are becoming more normal as the pressure on the distribution system increases. Do you know when the Fox Sports contract expires? If it's in the next couple of months, I agree. Longer than that, who knows? We might suddenly see a deal that resolves everything, complete with the magical seven day Auto Hop delay for Fox affiliates!


I haven't heard... These were channels that FOX converted (like Speed) into FOX Sports 1 and FOX Sports 2... so it is whatever that old contract was. FOX had tried to get providers to drop that contract and sign on for the new channels when they launched them more than a year ago... but nobody wanted to do that, so FOX just swapped the channels (essentially) and waited for the next opportunity to try and get more money. The first attempt was for some college sports live feeds that they were going to withhold a few months ago... but they settled on those demands... now seem to be trying to take another bite of the apple.

That's why I don't have a good feel of how long this dispute might last. We know Dish can be stubborn, especially with FOX trying to pull a fast one... so if FOX is also stubborn, this could be a long one.


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## mwdxer

I could care less about Fox News, but I do like the Fox Network shows as well as FXM. We have a lot of news channels anyway. I got a call from Charter today about switching from Dish. I told them I wasn't interested as they cannot offer me everything Dish has. Later on, I went on line to see and compare packages and Charter has added a lot of new channels in the past several months. They have Epix E/W but not 1,2,3, and they have Retro and Inde. If I was to buy their biggest package, I would have BBC World. They also have CNN International is a smaller tier, and they carry some sub channels like METV and Get TV, but no Antenna TV. Their biggest package has all of the movie channels, which I would not want and I would have to buy that to get BBC World. That is $99 a month to start and finally $124.99, so much more than Dish. Charter does have Smithonian which Dish used to have, but I get that on the Roku now. But the comparison was interesting. Some time back, there was no comparison between Dish & Charter, but they are not too much different. One other thing, Charter does have several channels in HD that Dish does, including the Encore package of Westers, etc.


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## Jaspear

Stewart Vernon said:


> I haven't heard... These were channels that FOX converted (like Speed) into FOX Sports 1 and FOX Sports 2... so it is whatever that old contract was. FOX had tried to get providers to drop that contract and sign on for the new channels when they launched them more than a year ago... but nobody wanted to do that, so FOX just swapped the channels (essentially) and waited for the next opportunity to try and get more money. The first attempt was for some college sports live feeds that they were going to withhold a few months ago... but they settled on those demands... now seem to be trying to take another bite of the apple.


There's also FXX. On the Channel 204 video loop, Charlie talks about one channel that Fox added to the negotiations at the last minute, rather than channels. He says that the contract "doesn't expire for some time", and that it didn't have a "viewership" that justified the increase that Fox suddenly wanted. The FXX year end ratings, according to Deadline.com (the Simpsons marathon notwithstanding) are nothing to crow about. Maybe Fox 21 thought that what didn't work for Fox Sports might be golden with FXX, since it has ratings that actually show up in the 2014 top 40 lists.

As an aside, why the heck can't Dish get the formatting right on that channel 204 loop?


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## TechnoCat

mitchflorida said:


> Probably the real Fox News fans have left Dish by now. Others are just calling up to get lots of credit for not having Dish.
> 
> The major damage to Dish has been done and it will level off. I still don't think Fox gives a hoot at this point and they think Dish will eventually come back to the table and compromise. I think it will be at the end of February until they reach an agreement.
> 
> Dish is guilty of too many outages, at the same time they are hitting us with yet another price increase. Dish used to be at least $10 cheaper than DTV, I see that now being about $2 cheaper, which is nothing to brag about.


Real Fox News fans probably root for Dish over Fox in this scuffle. It's a different group than, say, MSNBC fans. More likely to understand business, less likely to be slaves to passion and the moment.

Fox News ratings have already dropped by 13% during this outage, which analysts have attributed to Dish. That may seem tiny, but realize that (1) you'd miss a 13% cut in your income and (2) they have guarantees to their advertisers. They will have to comp more ads, which will eat into their revenue directly _in addition to the lost Dish revenues._ So I'd guess Fox will blink first.


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## Stewart Vernon

Jaspear said:


> There's also FXX. On the Channel 204 video loop, Charlie talks about one channel that Fox added to the negotiations at the last minute, rather than channels. He says that the contract "doesn't expire for some time", and that it didn't have a "viewership" that justified the increase that Fox suddenly wanted. The FXX year end ratings, according to Deadline.com (the Simpsons marathon notwithstanding) are nothing to crow about. Maybe Fox 21 thought that what didn't work for Fox Sports might be golden with FXX, since it has ratings that actually show up in the 2014 top 40 lists.
> 
> As an aside, why the heck can't Dish get the formatting right on that channel 204 loop?


You're right... it could be FXX too. I forget about that channel sometimes.

I figure it is either that OR Fox Sports 2 that is the problem... not sure which it could be as both should fit the low-ratings notion.


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## James Long

Stewart Vernon said:


> You're right... it could be FXX too. I forget about that channel sometimes.
> 
> I figure it is either that OR Fox Sports 2 that is the problem... not sure which it could be as both should fit the low-ratings notion.


Considering it is Fox's opinion of whatever other channel Mr Ergen is mentioning, it could be Fox Sports 1. Fox wants that channel to be the next ESPN. It is improving (not just a motorsports "Speedvision" channel) but it certainly did not become what ESPN has become over decades in only one year.

In any case, Fox needs to let their news channel return to DISH and deal with FS1, FS2, FXX or whatever channel it is when that channel A ) earns an increase and B ) is up for renewal.


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## altidude

When Fox News first went dark my first reaction was "that's it, I'm going back to DirecTV". Then I realized that I love my Dish DVR (Vip722k) more than I love Fox News so I'll stay with Dish. I've tried watching the Blaze (I'm just not into Glen Beck) and CNN (enough about the plane already!). NewsMax was just OK.

Of the news channels I've watched, Al Jazeera America has been the most interesting. Very good, in depth, international stories but I haven't seen any hard news there either. I'm sure it's there, I'm just not tuning in at the right time.


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## James Long

Channels 279 China Central News and 280 Russia Today are also available (hidden near NASA TV).
9415 Free Speech TV is in the "Public Interest" range of channels (and has been there for more than a decade).

I saw a good special on Queen Elizabeth II on NewsMax last weekend. It was interesting to see the early years before she became queen and it helps to understand why she will only leave the throne upon her death ... and not willingly before. (Sorry Prince Charles ... she's a tough old gal who made a commitment.)


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## Rduce

FXX is geared to comedy, yet the top two comedy shows they have still play on FX, Archer and Louie. That makes me think that FOX is not that confident on the viewership on FXX and they want to be able to bilk the most out of ad rates.


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## BobCulp

I don't think that Fox News Channel has the power to pull FNC & FBN from dish. Fox News is just a company under Fox Entertainment group, which is under 21 century Fox. Fox Entertainment group and 21 century Fox should be the ones to play ball with Dish. I found a list on networks under Fox Entertainment Group that is interesting and there are others worldwide and Latin America.

Cable network programming

Big Ten Network (51%, with the Big Ten Conference)
Fox Business Network
Fox College Sports
Fox News Channel
Fox Soccer Plus
Fox Sports 1
Fox Sports 2
Fox Sports Networks (some affiliates owned by Cablevision and DirecTV Sports Networks)
FX
FXX
FX Movie Channel
National Geographic Channel (with the National Geographic Society)
Nat Geo Mundo (with the National Geographic Society)
Nat Geo Wild (with the National Geographic Society)
Fox on Demand


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## James Long

BobCulp said:


> I don't think that Fox News Channel has the power to pull FNC & FBC from dish. Fox News is just a company under Fox Entertainment group, which is under 21 century Fox. Fox Entertainment group and 21 century Fox should be the ones to play ball with Dish. I found a list on networks under Fox Entertainment Group that is interesting and there are others worldwide and Latin America


Correct ... Fox is doing the negotiating for the carriage of their channels. They have not signed an agreement to have Fox News and Fox Business carriage continue on DISH Network. Until Fox signs an agreement the channels not under agreement cannot be carried. (Other Fox channels are carried under separate agreements that have not yet expired.)


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## Cable Lover

I could be wrong (been wrong about a million times before), but I would imagine that 21cFOX would be more anxious to get a deal done now that the primetime lineup is back for the new year. Generally during Christmas and New Year's weeks, we get guest hosts and best of shows.


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## Wildblue

I wasn't too bothered by this, but it's gotten worse, so I'm dropping in here, and called Dish to complain. First it was Fox Business, and Fox News last month, which was our favorite channel. Often just leave it playing in the background around the house for news while doing other stuff. Then last week, it was Alaska local channels 5 and 6, which are small mini-networks that carry some smaller shows. Not as important. But then this weekend we lost the Fox Network, which has many shows we watch. 

I understand the contract thing and have seen this before, so at first I just took it in stride, didn't say anything. But this is going downhill. I'm not going to drop Dish, nor Fox. But they need to work this out. Customer Service rep gave me $5 off the bill for the next 6 months, which isn't much, but I wasn't looking for anything either.

For now, everything else seems to be playing, including FXX, Fox Sports 1/2, etc.


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## NYDutch

I wonder how many of the Fox fan jumpers to DTV are in the dozen or so markets that lost their local NBC, CBS, ABC, and/or CW affiliate stations owned by Cordillera a few days ago...


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## mwdxer

FOX is not the only one Dish viewers have lost either. In the Seattle market KVOS Bellingham (METV) is not on Dish now. I guess there must be some dispute. It was lost the beginning of the year. So there are other channels in different markets that viewers have lost.


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## TechnoCat

I thought KVOS had been gone for a while. Doesn't really matter; they were a ME-TV (think old WGN or Nick-at-Night programming) outlet, with no local content. No news, etc. Direc only added them two years ago. There's nothing of value there. I mean, they run CHiPs in prime time! C'mon! Nobody's going to switch providers over that!


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## pinkertonfloyd

Business news yesterday blamed a drop on FOX stock on Nielsen ratings showing a 13-15% drop in Foxnews viewership in the last two weeks of the year compared to last year. Tough to call with the holidays (news cycle is weird during this time). But it fits with Dish being about 14-15% of Fox's subscribers.

The put it this way, Fox lost about as many viewers as MSNBC had total.

Hoping this pushes both sides to come to an agreement soon.


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## Jaspear

mwdxer said:


> FOX is not the only one Dish viewers have lost either. In the Seattle market KVOS Bellingham (METV) is not on Dish now. I guess there must be some dispute. It was lost the beginning of the year. So there are other channels in different markets that viewers have lost.


KVOS was dropped because their retransmission consent agreement ran out. They have to renew it every few years and apparently, forgot. They plan to renew it, so they will be back on soon.


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## tigerwillow1

TechnoCat said:


> I thought KVOS had been gone for a while. Doesn't really matter; they were a ME-TV (think old WGN or Nick-at-Night programming) outlet, with no local content. No news, etc. Direc only added them two years ago. There's nothing of value there. I mean, they run CHiPs in prime time! C'mon! Nobody's going to switch providers over that!


Think again. The ONLY reason I'm not leaving for Direct is that the Dish DVR can receive a METV OTA subchannel that Direct can't.


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## TechnoCat

Direc should be able to receive KVOS. They issued a press release about it two years ago. And if that's the only reason you're with Dish, switch. I'm with Dish because... the programming selections meet my needs better, I prefer the controls/DVR (although they've changed since I last compared), the video quality is better (again, those too probably have changed since I last compared), and the price was better. Price doesn't really matter to me... we're talking the difference of two martinis out per month... but all these together pushed me to Dish a long time ago.

But if all you care about is shows that even Amazon and Netflix don't consider worth streaming, jump on it. Dish can't satisfy you. I don't think any company can, but if you're willing to hop every second year or whatever your contracts will allow, enjoy it. The world needs curmudgeons too! :smoking:

Before you go, though, a question... is there anything about Dish that you particularly _like_ and wouldn't want to give up?


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## mwdxer

I love the old TV shows and I envy the viewers that live in large metro areas that can get all of those OTA sub channels that run the old shows. Thank goodness I still have my big dish as I can get most of them FTA. No DVR, but at least they are available. We will get METV and Get TV sometime next Summer OTA, when the ABC station (KATU) switches our translator finally to digital. With the 211k with the OTA tuner, I can then record them. I now have to record them via my big dish to a DVD to watch them back on that timer. To me, many of the old shows are better than the newer ones. That is one reason, I wish Dish could add at least the sub channel TV services that carry the old shows. Having Cozi part time and a few others like RFD TV are nice. One I really want is Antenna TV, but since the TV station in Portland (32) is not building a translator out here, we are out of luck. Losing channels like CNN or FOX, no big deal to me, as for news there are so many choices. I did miss TCM though. But having Antenna TV on Dish would be wonderful. I would give up a lot to have that one channel. Even local Charter Cable does not carry it.


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## tigerwillow1

TechnoCat said:


> Direc should be able to receive KVOS.........middle of post snipped......
> 
> Before you go, though, a question... is there anything about Dish that you particularly _like_ and wouldn't want to give up?


I'm guessing this question was for me. First off, I am not in the KVOS service area. I was commenting about "nobody" switching providers to get METV. I'm in a rural area and get METV off of a translator, which Direct cannot do. Since we watch METV and other OTA more than satellite channels, it's THE driving factor. As to anything else about Dish I wouldn't want to give up (vs. another cable provider), only one other thing: Cozi TV. If it wasn't for these 2 "killer" capabilities I'd be going to Direct under the new customer discount. I was formerly using Direct for over 10 years. I had an older DVR that was "dog slow" and the 722 when it was new was snappy in comparison. As the disc filled up, the 722 also got "dog slow", often taking 5 seconds or more to respond to remote presses. I find the 722 to be very buggy. When there's a signal loss, particularly on OTA, it often crashes (remember, rural area and low power translator). We don't even have to be watching or recording OTA, if the OTA station it happens to be tuned to loses signal lock, the DVR is often gone until a power reset. (This is my 2nd 722, the first one did exactly the same thing). I can say that in the 10+ years, the Direct DVR HR22 never crashed on me.


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## Tiki God

After 18 years with Dish, I'm switching to Directv on Thursday. Although I am a Fox News watcher, I'm just getting tired of all of the carriage disputes with Dish (AMC, Disney, CBS, etc). (I know, other providers have them too). I got a pretty nice deal at Costo for two years, so I figure I can always switch back. I also think it's smart to switch things up every now and then. Although I'm not sure every 18 years is considered "now and then".


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## Rduce

Tiki God said:


> After 18 years with Dish, I'm switching to Directv on Thursday. Although I am a Fox News watcher, I'm just getting tired of all of the carriage disputes with Dish (AMC, Disney, CBS, etc). (I know, other providers have them too). I got a pretty nice deal at Costo for two years, so I figure I can always switch back. I also think it's smart to switch things up every now and then. Although I'm not sure every 18 years is considered "now and then".


Just make sure a current carriage outage on DIRECT doesn't affect your DMA.


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## Tiki God

What's a DMA?


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## mwdxer

DMA= Designated Market Area meaning the TV market you are located in. Like the Northern Oregon Coast is considered Portland. Market size varies a lot. Some markets like Billings MT, even go into another state, like Wyoming.


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## Tiki God

Got it, thanks. The line up I was shown (I'm in L.A.) looked comparable to what I have now on Dish, plus a couple of channels that Dish didn't offer in the package I had.


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## pinkertonfloyd

Tiki God said:


> After 18 years with Dish, I'm switching to Directv on Thursday. Although I am a Fox News watcher, I'm just getting tired of all of the carriage disputes with Dish (AMC, Disney, CBS, etc). (I know, other providers have them too). I got a pretty nice deal at Costo for two years, so I figure I can always switch back. I also think it's smart to switch things up every now and then. Although I'm not sure every 18 years is considered "now and then".


Just be careful with the "quote" the costco guys give (using a four-square). They are missing a ton of "fees" Direct charges now... (IE Local Sports Francise fees, even if you don't get the regional sports channels) basically add at least $10/mo for fees they forget to tell you about.
I also got "HD for life" from them, that ran out after 2 years, and even though I had it "in writing"... Directv told me they couldn't fix it because I didn't catch it within 60 days, therefore I accepted the contract change.
Basically the Directv salespeople at Costco aren't worth the paper they write the contract on... they're usually a 3rd party (Authorized reseller) also, which is why Directv will hide when you ask them why billing isn't matching up with what the rep in Costco told you. They are not Costco employees. (Ditto for Sams and other places you see Directv guys running around). Also, they're 3rd party, and their installers can take shortcuts... when my Dish was installed, almost all of the Directv wiring was ripped out because the Dish guy pointed out that the Directv guy re-used a bunch of existing RG-59, and pieces of older RG-6, rather than run new cables directly. (Even though the cables were exposed and quite easy to cut and replace, he did it in about 30 mins... all RG6-3K.

Document EVERYTHING, keep copies, and watch your billing carefully, if you see a problem call immediately...


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## JTG

Tiki please update us with an evaluation of your Direct experience and contrast it with Dish after you've had a chance to get comfortable with it.


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## PCampbell

Tiki God said:


> After 18 years with Dish, I'm switching to Directv on Thursday. Although I am a Fox News watcher, I'm just getting tired of all of the carriage disputes with Dish (AMC, Disney, CBS, etc). (I know, other providers have them too). I got a pretty nice deal at Costo for two years, so I figure I can always switch back. I also think it's smart to switch things up every now and then. Although I'm not sure every 18 years is considered "now and then".


The guys at Costco will say anything to get you to sign up. Go to Directv.com or call them. Also we have channels go dark. The Fox news website has taken down there drop Dish ads, did they give up or is a deal close?


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## Tiki God

The Costco guy gave me a written document that had all of my channels info. and the price I would pay for the first and second year. Seems pretty cut and dry. $24 for 4 receivers, 73.99 for Extra package, $15 for receiver fee and $4 for regional sports fee. Total for the first year is $78 with it going up to $117 the second. Add in the $200 gift card and the average is app. $89 month for the 2 year contract. That is about 15% less than my current dish bill and the NFL package and hbo for 3 months, while not interesting to me, is a bonus. Hey I figure I can always switch back.


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## Tiki God

And I still see the "drop Dish" banner on the Fox news site.


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## PCampbell

Its back, gone this morning.


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## patmurphey

Dish passed out a bunch of unsolicited $50 credits in the last few days just for posting on "dishstandsbyyou" - not a good sign for a deal "soon".


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## Tiki God

So what should i expect when calling to cancel Dish today? I'm not under a contract at this point. I just read that Directv may drop AMC... sigh.


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## PCampbell

Never switch when a channel is off due to contract dispute, you make them feel like they are worth more. If you must change wait for the dispute to end. As for Directv they seem to have less disputes but they are on the rise. If you have been happy with Dish I would say stay.


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## pinkertonfloyd

Fox is starting to hurt, they put a ad-buy on my local News Station telling people Dish blocked them, and the call a number and they'll "Help you switch to a new provider".

I'd say it's starting to hit critical mass. When Comcast Sports did that, it was settled very soon after.

Fox is probably getting advertisers asking for refunds due to lower than contracted viewers for the shows. End of year was down 15% (about Dish's share). And there should be another report for the new year next week... and the "holiday" excuse won't work, especially with the big storys just this week.


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## pinkertonfloyd

PCampbell said:


> As for Directv they seem to have less disputes but they are on the rise. If you have been happy with Dish I would say stay.


Just ask The Weather Channel... although I also supported directv on this... TWC was more "The Reality Shows Passed by our Parent NBC channel".


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## Michael P

patmurphey said:


> Dish passed out a bunch of unsolicited $50 credits in the last few days just for posting on "dishstandsbyyou" - not a good sign for a deal "soon".


I just posted on that site. I mentioned that this is the 3rd dispute in recent months. Customers should get a refund!
I ended with a positive note: The only good thing about this dispute is getting The Blaze in HD. Is there any chance that The Blaze will stay in HD after the dispute?


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## camo

Tiki God said:


> After 18 years with Dish, I'm switching to Directv on Thursday. Although I am a Fox News watcher, I'm just getting tired of all of the carriage disputes with Dish (AMC, Disney, CBS, etc). (I know, other providers have them too). I got a pretty nice deal at Costo for two years, so I figure I can always switch back. I also think it's smart to switch things up every now and then. Although I'm not sure every 18 years is considered "now and then".


You will love Directv, very good people to work with. IMO better picture quality in HD and love the DVR's. I've actually had Dish much longer prior to Directv and would never go back. Once you establish a customer relationship they become flexible in billing will bend over backwards to keep you happy. Enjoy your stay.


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## Tiki God

Well, I had already scheduled for DirecTv to be installed today. Canceling with Dish went fairly smoothly, although I was put on hold for about 10 minutes and thought I had gotten hung up on. They did try different offers to get me to stay, even after I told them I had signed a DirecTv deal and their equipment was sitting in my living room floor ready for return. I was polite and told them I may be back in two years as I really dug the Hopper system.

The DirecTv will take some adjustments and the confirmation guy I spoke to after the installation was pushing the $8 per month protection plan. I think I said "No thanks" about 10 times. I wonder if Square Trade offers plans for cable repairs. At the end of the day I think all of these companies are about the same. Some people have bad experiences while others good. I have friends that hate Dish, but love DTV or ATT. It all comes down to your personal experience. Thanks for the feedback and I'll report on my DTV experience in a while.


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## BobCulp

Wow. I googled "request mediator to end fox news dish dispute", with no luck, but I found this. Take a look at very bottom..It's very interesting.

http://www.tvonmyside.com/index.php/past-dispute-list

Recent Disputes​
Here are examples of recent disputes between networks and TV providers.​
CBS and Dish
*November 2014*
CBS and Dish agreed to an extension of their agreement but CBS pulled their signal from DISH customers before finally coming to an agreement in December.
​
AMC and DIRECTV
*November 2014*
AMC informed customers that they are in a possible contract dispute with DIRECTV. AMC has a history of aggressive tactics with distributors.
​
Turner and Dish
*October 2014*
Turner Broadcasting pulled ten of its channels from DISH subscribers over high rate increases. This dispute is still ongoing.
​
Viacom and Suddenlink
*September 2014*
Due to an excessive increase in rates along with declining ratings, Suddenlink permanently dropped all of the Viacom channels from their lineup.
​
Hearst Television and DISH
*April 2014*
Hearst Television pulled its signals to 29 stations from DISH Network viewers in 25 markets for 14 hours, even though DISH offered to keep the networks on while negotiations continued.
​
Viacom and Vyve
*April 2014*
Vyve dropped its Viacom channels due to higher demands for renewal fees and replaced them with other channels often requested by customers.
​
Viacom and Cable ONE
*March 2014*
Cable ONE permanently dropped its Viacom channels because they were demanding a rate increase greater than 100%, even though viewing was down on most of their networks.
​
Viacom and DIRECTV
*July 2012*
Viacom pulled all of its national networks from DIRECTV for nine days and shut off customer access to all shows through the Internet. After significant public backlash and declining ratings on several of their networks, Viacom reached an agreement and returned their networks to DIRECTV.
​
The Weather Channel and DIRECTV
*January 2014*
The Weather Channel pulled their channel from 20 Million DIRECTV customers in a dispute over a fee increase. The increase comes despite lower viewership due to many other weather source options. The dispute is still ongoing.
​
Sinclair Broadcast Group and Buckeye Cable System
*December 2013*
Sinclair pulled the local NBC station from Buckeye Cable System customers after demanding an increase of over 10 times more than they are currently paid. The station still has not been reinstated.
​
Turner Broadcasting System and CableOne
*October 2013*
Cable One attempted to control costs by requesting that Turner allow them to keep only high-rated networks. Turner pulled all of their networks, including TNT, CNN and TBS, from Cable One customers in an "all or nothing" approach to negotiations. Turner Networks were returned after further negotiations.
​
Media General and DISH Network
*October 2013*
Media General pulled 18 stations from DISH Network after demanding an increase of five times the rate customers had been paying. Media General dragged the dispute on for so long that the FCC was called in to mediate, Media General finally reached an agreement with Dish after more than six weeks of denying Dish customers of their stations.
​
CBS and Time Warner Cable
*August - September 2013*
CBS pulled local CBS TV stations and Showtime from TWC customers in New York, Los Angeles, Dallas, and other cities for 30 days. With no regard for their viewers, this dispute exemplified network's #1 priority: To get higher fees from TV providers.

​
AMC Networks and DISH
*June - October 2012*
AMC pulled their networks from DISH subscribers for nearly five months, and returned them only after Dish agreed to pay AMC $700 million for a multi-year contract.
​
Tribune and DIRECTV
*April 2012*
Tribune pulled WGN America and 23 stations other stations from DIRECTV viewers for four days over fee increase negotiations.
​
Fox Networks and DIRECTV
*September 2011*
Fox threatened to pull local FOX TV stations and cable networks, but renewed at deadline. Fox used many "dirty tricks" in this dispute, including asking viewers of networks that were not part of the DIRECTV agreement to call to complain.


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## Jaspear

pinkertonfloyd said:


> Fox is starting to hurt, they put a ad-buy on my local News Station telling people Dish blocked them, and the call a number and they'll "Help you switch to a new provider".
> 
> I'd say it's starting to hit critical mass. When Comcast Sports did that, it was settled very soon after.
> 
> Fox is probably getting advertisers asking for refunds due to lower than contracted viewers for the shows. End of year was down 15% (about Dish's share). And there should be another report for the new year next week... and the "holiday" excuse won't work, especially with the big storys just this week.


Fox News' total audience down over 21% since Dish blackout started

According to an article from Multichannel News a couple of days ago, there have been no negotiations since December 20th.

The Fox suits are getting antsy while Charlie sits by the phone.


----------



## APB101

Tiki God said:


> After 18 years with Dish, I'm switching to Directv on Thursday. Although I am a Fox News watcher, I'm just getting tired of all of the carriage disputes with Dish (AMC, Disney, CBS, etc). (I know, other providers have them too). I got a pretty nice deal at Costo for two years, so I figure I can always switch back. I also think it's smart to switch things up every now and then. Although I'm not sure every 18 years is considered "now and then".


DirecTV subscriber here.

A friend of mine made the switch from Dish Network to DirecTV during the Dish Network-vs.-AMC Networks dispute.

"18 years" is loyalty. I've been with DirecTV for 16 years. In March, it will be 17 years.

The switches also have a lot to do with, "One company has something I want; the other does not." Example of Dish Network having it over DirecTV is with Pac-12 Network.

I hope, for the sake of subscribers of Dish Network, that there will be no more Dish Network-vs-programmers disputes for quite some time.

All the best to subscribers! (No matter from which company you get your cable-television programming.)


----------



## inkahauts

I wonder how all the news channels Have done the last couple days.


----------



## Jaspear

inkahauts said:


> I wonder how all the news channels Have done the last couple days.


In the prime demo, here are the numbers through Wednesday:

TVNewser

Also a new article from The International Business Times with this:



> Dish blackout or no, Fox is still the most-watched cable news network, easily beating out both CNN and MSNBC in prime time. And next week's ratings data is likely to look much different due to a viewership spike related to the mass shooting in Paris that left 12 people dead on Wednesday. Fox's coverage of the attack was the most-watched in cable news, attracting 2.13 million prime-time viewers compared with 941,000 for CNN and 727,000 for MSNBC.


----------



## inkahauts

Interesting as every time I went by FOX they had people in a discussion about it here and every time I went by cnn they where talking to reporters there. I'm sure both did both I just kept catching them both that way and found it funny. I didn't sit on the channel for 30 minutes though.


----------



## James Long

Jaspear said:


> In the prime demo, here are the numbers through Wednesday:
> TVNewser


"The Scoreboard: Wednesday, January 7" -
Total day: FNC: 240 | *CNN: 289* | MSNBC: 103 | HLN: 123
Primetime: FNC: 353 | *CNN: 390* | MSNBC: 164 | HLN: 106

"The Scoreboard: Thursday, January 8" -
Total day: *FNC: 235* | CNN: 219 | MSNBC: 89 | HLN: 94
Primetime: *FNC: 374* | CNN: 276 | MSNBC: 140 | HLN: 89

Fox won Monday and Tuesday as well.

Headline News won Sunday:
Total day: FNC: 104 | CNN: 135 | MSNBC: 100 | *HLN: 141*
Primetime: FNC: 78 | CNN: 160 | MSNBC: 138 | *HLN: 179*

It looks like CNN did the best on Wednesday night with the breaking news of the initial attacks and Fox rebounded the next day when the news was slower. I look forward to seeing Friday numbers based on today's activity.


----------



## James Long

inkahauts said:


> Interesting as every time I went by FOX they had people in a discussion about it here and every time I went by cnn they where talking to reporters there. I'm sure both did both I just kept catching them both that way and found it funny. I didn't sit on the channel for 30 minutes though.


CNN is good at being there on international stories. I really appreciate CNN international coverage after midnight. They even carved out a few minutes last night to talk about the AirAsia recovery (apparently they heard pings yesterday).


----------



## inkahauts

Yeah, CNNI is nice after midnight I agree...


----------



## Tiki God

First DirecTV snag.

I registered at their site and saw they already had my first bill already for me to pay, which is odd since they just installed yesterday. The promotional discount as written on my work order and as explained to me was 39.00 for 12 months, while the bill shows the discount as $29.00. I just spent 20 minutes on the phone with them, but was told they would have to review it and get back to me within 7 days. Not starting off on the right foot. :nono2:


----------



## TechnoCat

James Long said:


> CNN is good at being there on international stories. I really appreciate CNN international coverage after midnight. They even carved out a few minutes last night to talk about the AirAsia recovery (apparently they heard pings yesterday).


Not so much for France; Fox and Sky (I think) are real tight. Fox got spanked, and Dish is why.


----------



## TechnoCat

The most interesting thing about the media coverage is that they're reporting the Fox claim of 90K Dish viewers switching... which was without any basis or cites, just "Fox internal research", as Fox winning, while largely glossing over the 21% ratings decline in FNC... and the first two Sundays in _thirteen years_ of FNC getting below 100K viewers total for Sunday. Fox is, percentage-wise, hurting more even if you believe the numbers with all the veracity of "climate scientists" with no actual data. (For a view of how they got that number... click here.) Dish has probably lost viewers, but it would be rather difficult for 90K viewers to switch that quickly even if they wanted to. And 90K of 14M is a lot less than 21%. (For MSNBC viewers, it's less than 1%.)

That's important stuff to understand. Fox understands messaging to the media- they are the media. But it really looks like Dish is winning the war. Of course this is really Charlie vs Rupert, so it may all become two dismembered zombies ineffectually flailing at each other before their egos wind down, but given that Dish also made a really big deal of their Sling-TV at CES this week (which is _not_ related to Sling player; it's just a subscription viewing like Netflix or HBO-GO for normally broadcast channels), Charlie may not even care if both sides die.


----------



## inkahauts

Tiki God said:


> First DirecTV snag.
> 
> I registered at their site and saw they already had my first bill already for me to pay, which is odd since they just installed yesterday. The promotional discount as written on my work order and as explained to me was 39.00 for 12 months, while the bill shows the discount as $29.00. I just spent 20 minutes on the phone with them, but was told they would have to review it and get back to me within 7 days. Not starting off on the right foot. :nono2:


Did you do a refer a freind to get some of it by chance? That actually takes an extra cycle to kick in usually


----------



## Stewart Vernon

From the Keep Fox News Web site...









Ok, so now that my LiLs are back I can turn some attention here.

Two things strike me about the biggest text portion of the FOX Web site setup to discuss their side of this dispute...

1. "Dish is censoring your news." - No, Dish isn't. I don't subscribe to my local newspaper, but that doesn't mean I'm censoring the news for the other people in my home. I also don't subscribe to various online Web sites for news... that's not censoring. Dish not having a contract with FOX to carry their news channel has ZERO in common with censoring news.

2. The "what you're missing" section is amusing... because they list a bunch of shows I recognize as airing on FOX News... then at the end (far right) it says "and you have also lost FOX Business." I find that amusing, because it is FOX basically saying even they don't think you're missing much by not having FOX Business channel since they couldn't be bothered to list all the shows that air there that you are missing.


----------



## Tiki God

inkahauts said:


> Did you do a refer a freind to get some of it by chance? That actually takes an extra cycle to kick in usually


No, I just signed up Monday for myself, no referrals. Funny thing is they said they would have to let the higher-ups render a decision and they would let me know within 7 days. I'm not quite sure of what their decision would be other than to give me what they promised me in writing.


----------



## audiomaster

I don't care about the sports, but I miss waking up to the hot blonde babes on Fox in the AM! Gets your blood moving!
Has anyone on here contacted Dish and been able to get a refund or comps for this lack of one of the networks on Dish? If so what are they willing to do for us long time subscribers? I am paying for a total of 2 Hoppers and three Joes at two houses!


----------



## thomasjk

Yes you can get credits from Dish. You have to call and ask. Or try this site http://dishstandsforyou.com/ and leave feedback. I received a $50 credit from the site.


----------



## nmetro

What we are missing is more or less a talk show channel, not a news channel. No different than CNN or MSNBC. Except when there is a major news story, none of these channels can guarantee 24/7 news coverage. Al Jazeera America comes close, as it has 12 hours of news a day, by alternating between news and documentaries.

FOX News may have the highest ratings, because it yells the loudest. I do miss it, juts like I did not miss CNN when it was off DISH for a month.

I have some overseas streaming options when I want to watch news.



Stewart Vernon said:


> From the Keep Fox News Web site...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FOX News.png
> 
> Ok, so now that my LiLs are back I can turn some attention here.
> 
> Two things strike me about the biggest text portion of the FOX Web site setup to discuss their side of this dispute...
> 
> 1. "Dish is censoring your news." - No, Dish isn't. I don't subscribe to my local newspaper, but that doesn't mean I'm censoring the news for the other people in my home. I also don't subscribe to various online Web sites for news... that's not censoring. Dish not having a contract with FOX to carry their news channel has ZERO in common with censoring news.
> 
> 2. The "what you're missing" section is amusing... because they list a bunch of shows I recognize as airing on FOX News... then at the end (far right) it says "and you have also lost FOX Business." I find that amusing, because it is FOX basically saying even they don't think you're missing much by not having FOX Business channel since they couldn't be bothered to list all the shows that air there that you are missing.


----------



## inkahauts

Stewart Vernon said:


> From the Keep Fox News Web site...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FOX News.png
> 
> Ok, so now that my LiLs are back I can turn some attention here.
> 
> Two things strike me about the biggest text portion of the FOX Web site setup to discuss their side of this dispute...
> 
> 1. "Dish is censoring your news." - No, Dish isn't. I don't subscribe to my local newspaper, but that doesn't mean I'm censoring the news for the other people in my home. I also don't subscribe to various online Web sites for news... that's not censoring. Dish not having a contract with FOX to carry their news channel has ZERO in common with censoring news.
> 
> 2. The "what you're missing" section is amusing... because they list a bunch of shows I recognize as airing on FOX News... then at the end (far right) it says "and you have also lost FOX Business." I find that amusing, because it is FOX basically saying even they don't think you're missing much by not having FOX Business channel since they couldn't be bothered to list all the shows that air there that you are missing.


Someone should be fired for using the word censorship. I have no respect for anyone or any channel that compares their lack of being able to come to a carriage agreement with the type of goal that the terrorist have in attacking Paris this week.

I wish DIRECTV and everyone could drop them all at once now and make them go under. It's blatant they are using that word right now this week.


----------



## Rduce

James Long said:


> "The Scoreboard: Wednesday, January 7" -
> Total day: FNC: 240 | *CNN: 289* | MSNBC: 103 | HLN: 123
> Primetime: FNC: 353 | *CNN: 390* | MSNBC: 164 | HLN: 106
> 
> "The Scoreboard: Thursday, January 8" -
> Total day: *FNC: 235* | CNN: 219 | MSNBC: 89 | HLN: 94
> Primetime: *FNC: 374* | CNN: 276 | MSNBC: 140 | HLN: 89
> 
> Fox won Monday and Tuesday as well.
> 
> Headline News won Sunday:
> Total day: FNC: 104 | CNN: 135 | MSNBC: 100 | *HLN: 141*
> Primetime: FNC: 78 | CNN: 160 | MSNBC: 138 | *HLN: 179*
> 
> It looks like CNN did the best on Wednesday night with the breaking news of the initial attacks and Fox rebounded the next day when the news was slower. I look forward to seeing Friday numbers based on today's activity.


No longer having DISH, I now have my local cable companies bottom tier package, I can tell you that as for yesterday morning's coverage CNN had much better coverage than either FOX or MSNBC. I flipped back and forth during breaks and CNN hands down covered it better. The only time I watch any news network is when there is something breaking.


----------



## WestDC

Like CNN because - Cristin Ap- called the Muslims in France "Activist" That makes them much nicer


----------



## James Long

Rduce said:


> The only time I watch any news network is when there is something breaking.


You are not alone.


----------



## BobCulp

Now that Dish lost 90,000 subscribers, I wonder if the rest of us can refuse the new sling tv $20 package until Fox News comes back on the air. Dish now has a bigger problem on how to get the customers back to Dish? Lowering prices may not happen with all the blackout disputes.


----------



## lparsons21

BobCulp said:


> Now that Dish lost 90,000 subscribers, I wonder if the rest of us can refuse the new sling tv $20 package until Fox News comes back on the air. Dish now has a bigger problem on how to get the customers back to Dish? Lowering prices may not happen with all the blackout disputes.


Big assumption on your part. The 90K lost subs is a number from a not credible source. All references to it always point right back to a Fox executive who has no credible evidence.

We do know from documented sources that FNC has lost way, way more than that. Whether because of the Dish/Fox dispute or otherwise is not actually known though a Fox executive seems to think so.

IOW, Dish may not be in the dire straights you seem to think they are.


----------



## Jaspear

lparsons21 said:


> Big assumption on your part. The 90K lost subs is a number from a not credible source. All references to it always point right back to a Fox executive who has no credible evidence.


But Fox got everything they wanted out of it, didn't they? It was disinformation by design. Numerous sites "reported" it as fact. Mission accomplished.


----------



## mitchflorida

The reason no one knows how many Dish customers have cancelled is because Dish won't release that information. You can't blame Fox for that.

Dish is required to release the cancellation figures next quarter during the earnings announcement. Why not release it today and *prove *that Fox is over-estimating it? Your move, Charlie.


----------



## Wildblue

Wildblue said:


> I wasn't too bothered by this, but it's gotten worse, so I'm dropping in here, and called Dish to complain. First it was Fox Business, and Fox News last month, which was our favorite channel. Often just leave it playing in the background around the house for news while doing other stuff. Then last week, it was Alaska local channels 5 and 6, which are small mini-networks that carry some smaller shows. Not as important. But then this weekend we lost the Fox Network, which has many shows we watch.
> 
> I understand the contract thing and have seen this before, so at first I just took it in stride, didn't say anything. But this is going downhill. I'm not going to drop Dish, nor Fox. But they need to work this out. Customer Service rep gave me $5 off the bill for the next 6 months, which isn't much, but I wasn't looking for anything either.
> 
> For now, everything else seems to be playing, including FXX, Fox Sports 1/2, etc.


Update on my own post. Things sunk to a new low for our family. My wife and daughter are reality junkies, and American Idol started last week. And today the NFL playoff game is on Fox, so I can't watch it. When major national events can't be watched, even though I paid for them, because of a contract dispute, things get more real. There still are certainly far more important things in life than TV. But I'm disappointed. (can't get local Fox OTA here where I live in Alaska)

Called Dish to complain again. Emphasized that I was NOT looking for any compensation, just wanted to log a formal complaint. CS rep gave me an additional $30 credit anyway, in addition to the $5/mo credit for 6 mo previously given. She then walked me through trying to get my local channels 5 and 6 restored, (non-Fox small time locals) which have now totally disappeared from the Guide. She seems to insist it's an equipment error, and her system says they're still covered. Sending out a tech for repair, which I don't think will do anything. But I'll let them do their process.


----------



## lparsons21

mitchflorida said:


> The reason no one knows how many Dish customers have cancelled is because Dish won't release that information. You can't blame Fox for that.
> 
> Dish is required to release the cancellation figures next quarter during the earnings announcement. Why not release it today and *prove *that Fox is over-estimating it? Your move, Charlie.


I'm not 'blaming' anyone. I just pointed out that the numbers given by Fox's executive are created out of whole cloth with absolutely nothing to back them up with. IOW, just BS not even up to the level of a wild assed guess!

Dish will release numbers when they have to. Right now, they don't have to and it would just be more fodder for the BS cannon that is firing these days. Hell, just based on the few actual posters complaining about FNC being gone pretty much tells the tale. IOW, very small number in the grand scheme of things.

I firmly believe that Fox believed their own PR about just how important Fox News is to the general public. They failed to realize that the vast majority of the viewing public spends little time on any of the news channels. And since they are all mostly infotainment with some breaking news now and then, it is perfectly understandable why!


----------



## lparsons21

Wildblue, it appears your issue is not related at all to the FNC fiasco.


----------



## James Long

mitchflorida said:


> The reason no one knows how many Dish customers have cancelled is because Dish won't release that information. You can't blame Fox for that.


Fox Entertainment (not Fox News) can't get the facts ... so it is OK to post a flat out lie? Why not claim that DISH lost 14 million customers over not carrying the two Fox channels? Go big!



mitchflorida said:


> Dish is required to release the cancellation figures next quarter during the earnings announcement. Why not release it today and *prove* that Fox is over-estimating it? Your move, Charlie.


DISH is absolutely NOT required to release cancellation figures relating specifically to the lack of carriage of Fox News and Fox Business (that sounds like a lie from Fox Entertainment). Their quarterly report will contain figures for gross subscribers added and gross subscribers lost and a net subscriber change figure. That report will cover ALL THREE MONTHS of the quarter. Not just the week that Fox's channels were not on DISH. And certainly not just subscriber change based on not carrying two Fox channels.

It would be another lie from Fox Entertainment to attribute every subscriber lost to the absence of their channels. It would be a lie to attribute any increase in net losses solely to the absence of the channels. If you are looking for lies then you can look at Fox Entertainment (again, not Fox News).

DISH is already 16K net subscribers down for 2014 before 4th quarter results. I'd like to see a positive finish to the year but that is too optimistic to expect. Realistically when the numbers are released there will be a loss. And honestly that loss should be attributed to ALL of DISH's operations ... not just the lack of carriage of two channels for less than two weeks of the quarter.

(FYI: DirecTV is down 50k net subscribers for the first nine months of 2014.)


----------



## camo

I read Directv USA after 3 quarters was down 28,000 as compared to last years net subs. But they were actually up in numbers over a million new subs. http://www.digitaltvnews.net/?p=25137, So I guess if you don't do better than the year prior its considered a negative some how.


----------



## mitchflorida

James Long said:


> Fox Entertainment (not Fox News) can't get the facts ... so it is OK to post a flat out lie? Why not claim that DISH lost 14 million customers over not carrying the two Fox channels? Go big!


You don't seem to understand the difference between making an estimate and "flat out lying". Consult your dictionary.


----------



## mitchflorida

camo said:


> I read Directv USA after 3 quarters was down 28,000 as compared to last years net subs. But they were actually up in numbers over a million new subs. http://www.digitaltvnews.net/?p=25137, So I guess if you don't do better than the year prior its considered a negative some how.


The may have enrolled a million new subs, but they lost more than that in old subs, aka cancellations.


----------



## TechnoCat

mitchflorida said:


> The reason no one knows how many Dish customers have cancelled is because Dish won't release that information. You can't blame Fox for that.
> 
> Dish is required to release the cancellation figures next quarter during the earnings announcement. Why not release it today and *prove *that Fox is over-estimating it? Your move, Charlie.


Mitch, rumour has it that you steal from children for a living. Why not post your 2013 taxes here and prove you don't? Your move, Mitch!

In other words, your approach isn't business-worthy. And basically illiterate anyhow, since you seem to conflate Fox's claim that Dish lost 0.6% of their subscribers (90K/14M) over Fox's clear loss (using independent data) of 21% of their viewers at the same time.


----------



## James Long

camo said:


> I read Directv USA after 3 quarters was down 28,000 as compared to last years net subs. But they were actually up in numbers over a million new subs. http://www.digitaltvnews.net/?p=25137, So I guess if you don't do better than the year prior its considered a negative some how.


The -28k was just for the third quarter ... the -50k is the net loss for the nine months. These are actual loss of total subscriber count ... not just adding less net subscribers than a year ago. 50k less subscribers on September 30th than they had on December 31st.

Fun with numbers: DISH lost 2.002 million customers in the first nine months of 2014. A negative comment about DISH would probably end there. But DISH also gained 1.986 million customers in the same nine months. Subscribers go ... subscribers come. It is all part of the business. (2.872 million left DirecTV in the same nine months - but 2.822 came to DirecTV so their net loss is the 50k as stated.)


----------



## Rduce

I have stated this before, to leave one provider for another over the loss of a channel or two, is ridiculous. More so when it is a news network where all of them are no longer news networks, but are political agenda channels. If you want to leave for financial considerations or you just no longer watch content being offered that is a viable reason. But it is only television and makes little sense to be so emotionally invested in a television channel... of course those political agenda networks are hoping for the sheep to follow them...


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Yeah... those "net" numbers always get to me on the quarterly reports. People tend to look at the net and say "Dish lost" or "DirecTV gained" or whatever the case may be.. and act as if that is the result in a vacuum. But not all losses are equal just like not all gains are equal.

A company that loses 1 million but gains 1.1 million has a net gain of 100K customers... and 100K sounds good, if you ignore that nearly as many were running away from you as you were enticing to jump on board.

Meanwhile, another company that loses 200K but gains 150K has a new loss of 50K... and that loss sounds bad, if you ignore that the company is apparently doing a better job of retaining customers than others.

In my two hypothetical companies above, the top company REALLY needs to work on customer retention. Their marketing is working apparently and bringing in new customers, but something is wrong at the company that is bleeding customers as fast as they are bringing them in... The second company, however, is doing a much better job at retention and IF they could bump up marketing and attract more new customers they could turn their fortunes around quickly.

But most people won't look at these sorts of things any closer than whatever number makes it to the news.

So a FOX executive can make an "estimated" guess that 90K people have left Dish... without anything to back that up... then the news runs with that, irresponsibly as if it were fact... meanwhile the same company puts it on the Web and in TV commercials that Dish is "censoring" them.. something else also factually incorrect... and if the narrative is accepted, they don't need to prove it.

People ask "why doesn't Dish prove them wrong" but you can't prove a negative so easily... plus people and companies shouldn't have to disprove a rumor/estimate. News people and executives making bold statements should instead be asked to prove their assertion is true. Otherwise, we could all make up something and demand you prove us wrong... the world, hopefully, doesn't work that way.


----------



## Jaspear

lparsons21 said:


> I firmly believe that Fox believed their own PR about just how important Fox News is to the general public. They failed to realize that the vast majority of the viewing public spends little time on any of the news channels. And since they are all mostly infotainment with some breaking news now and then, it is perfectly understandable why!


This pretty much works for all of these channels, news or not. Remember The Weather Channel and DirecTV? Or AMC and Dish?

They got this attitude after years of MVPD's giving them whatever they wanted, with very little resistance. As a certain "reverend" in Chicago once said, "The chickens are coming home to roost". About time.


----------



## KyL416

This article explains how Fox got the count, it's a combo of phone calls and hits at the KeepFoxNews.com site, and then they doubled the number, but at no point was there any confirmation on how many of those actually followed through and switched providers:
http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/carry-dish-has-lost-90000-subs-fox-news-disconnect/386701



Multichannel said:


> He based the total on the number of viewers that have reached out to the www.keepfoxnews.com website and 888-numbers, and others that have contacted Dish directly.


----------



## lparsons21

KyL416 said:


> This article explains how Fox got the count, it's a combo of phone calls and hits at the KeepFoxNews.com site, and then they doubled the number, but at no point was there any confirmation on how many of those actually followed through and switched providers:
> http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/carry-dish-has-lost-90000-subs-fox-news-disconnect/386701


So I was right, not even up to the level of a wild ass guess. Just numbers pulled out of very thin air.


----------



## inkahauts

KyL416 said:


> This article explains how Fox got the count, it's a combo of phone calls and hits at the KeepFoxNews.com site, and then they doubled the number, but at no point was there any confirmation on how many of those actually followed through and switched providers:
> http://www.multichannel.com/news/distribution/carry-dish-has-lost-90000-subs-fox-news-disconnect/386701


That is an absolute AWFUL way to figure it out. Half the people going tot heir web site where probably mad at THEM for not still being on instead of Dish! What a joke.


----------



## mitchflorida

lparsons21 said:


> So I was right, not even up to the level of a wild ass guess. Just numbers pulled out of very thin air.


Significantly, Dish has NOT denied those numbers. Interesting.


----------



## Nashcat

Interesting, but NOT expected... by ANYBODY.


----------



## James Long

mitchflorida said:


> Significantly, Dish has NOT denied those numbers. Interesting.


Some claims are to stupid to merit an official response.


----------



## Slamminc11

James Long said:


> Some claims are to stupid to merit an official response.


both by Dish and here...


----------



## TechnoCat

mitchflorida said:


> Significantly, Dish has NOT denied those numbers. Interesting.


Significantly, you also haven't denied that rumor that you steal from children. Even more interesting! What exactly are you hiding?


----------



## inkahauts

mitchflorida said:


> Significantly, Dish has NOT denied those numbers. Interesting.


Dish nor anyone else ever deny or confirm those kinds of numbers really.. And why should they? And if yu do the math, which I am sure they have, I bet they would have to lose well over a million customers for this dispute to start hurting their bottom line...


----------



## oldanbo

Lots of bloviating and personal attacks in this thread. Can we just stick to the status of the negotiations, if and when there are updates.

I don't see where anyone's political preferences should be here. Go blow your smoke at some PAC website or elsewhere.


----------



## Nashcat

This thread is quite tame as compared to some of the ones on the other "guys" site. It's the Wild Wild West over there. This has been well moderated, and it's been my experience that most folks here are quite civil. And I thank them for that.


----------



## mwdxer

There is not one channel out there important enough to switch from Dish. Taking that in mind, I may miss a channel, but too much work to switch, plus with Direct, I would lose some other channels I watch with Dish, and down the road Direct can lose a channel I may want anyway. Until the time comes where we have the choice to buy each channel from the owner of the channel, this song & dance will continue.


----------



## patmurphey

Rduce said:


> I have stated this before, to leave one provider for another over the loss of a channel or two, is ridiculous. More so when it is a news network where all of them are no longer news networks, but are political agenda channels. If you want to leave for financial considerations or you just no longer watch content being offered that is a viable reason. But it is only television and makes little sense to be so emotionally invested in a television channel... of course those political agenda networks are hoping for the sheep to follow them...


Who are you to judge and belittle anyone else"s opinion? Fox News is a superb combination of news and entertainment for some of us and it is remarkably balanced in allowing opinion from all sides. The news programs are more fair than any other network that I have watched, or have been forced to watch during this dispute. So, we are sheep for enjoying the channel?

I won't leave Dish, but I will add a DirecTV HD receiver to our family room TV if not settled by next week - because I can afford it and I am not about to give up my Hoppers.


----------



## James Long

patmurphey said:


> The news programs are more fair than any other network that I have watched, or have been forced to watch during this dispute.


DISH is not forcing anyone to watch any channel. DISH does not currently have permission to carry Fox News and Fox Business. But there are literally hundreds of channels on the DISH network system. You can choose any channel they carry or even turn off the TV. No one is forcing you to watch other news channels. 

(If you are interested in the news as it is presented by Fox News their website remains available.)


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## lparsons21

And you could get it on SiriusXM radio too. That's where I listen to them these days. Even though I drive little these days, I can get all the Fox News I want in those short drives.


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## inkahauts

patmurphey said:


> Who are you to judge and belittle anyone else"s opinion? Fox News is a superb combination of news and entertainment for some of us and it is remarkably balanced in allowing opinion from all sides. The news programs are more fair than any other network that I have watched, or have been forced to watch during this dispute. So, we are sheep for enjoying the channel?
> 
> I won't leave Dish, but I will add a DirecTV HD receiver to our family room TV if not settled by next week - because I can afford it and I am not about to give up my Hoppers.


I'm just curios, do you agree with their ridiculous on air claims that dish is censoring them? It's stuff like that that makes me lose respect for any channel no matter how much I may like it previously.


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## patmurphey

James Long said:


> DISH is not forcing anyone to watch any channel....


I never said Dish is forcing me to watch anything. If I want to watch news on TV, and I do, the "good" choice is gone - "forced" by circumstance of a 2 sided dispute.

And, inkahauts, I worked in my union for most of my career - "claims" roll off my back. They are not informative nor to be taken seriously.


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## mitchflorida

inkahauts said:


> I'm just curios, do you agree with their ridiculous on air claims that dish is censoring them? It's stuff like that that makes me lose respect for any channel no matter how much I may like it previously.


Yes, it is considered to be "de facto" censorship. De Facto is a legal term from the Latin,


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## KyL416

If you think THAT is censorship you need a reality check.

Censorship is where foreign news channels like Sky News, CNN, CNBC, euronews, France 24, Al Jazeera and BBC World News fade to black anytime a story airs that could be perceived as negative to the ruling government.

Censorship is the government throwing reporters into jail because they reported something that was favorable to their opposition.

Censorship is having access to all foreign news sites along with social media sites like Facebook and Twitter blocked with the penalty of being arrested if you're caught circumventing those blocks.


Fox refusing to sign a new deal for Fox News and Fox Business unless Dish pays more for a channel who's contract isn't even up yet is NOT even close to censorship.


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## inkahauts

mitchflorida said:


> Yes, it is considered to be "de facto" censorship. De Facto is a legal term from the Latin,


Wow. Just wow.. You have been watching that station to long if they have actually connived you that is what censorship means and you actually believe that.

There isn't anything even close to censorship going on here. Not even close.


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## mitchflorida

I am just kidding. It isn't censorship, it is just hard-fisted business negotiating on both sides. Funny how the people on this board think there has to be a "good guy" and "bad guy" in this dispute. There are just two businessmen both trying to make as much money as they think is fair. Don't make it anything different than that.


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## inkahauts

mitchflorida said:


> I am just kidding. It isn't censorship, it is just hard-fisted business negotiating on both sides. Funny how the people on this board think there has to be a "good guy" and "bad guy" in this dispute. There are just two businessmen both trying to make as much money as they think is fair. Don't make it anything different than that.


Ok good. Couldn't tell.

And by the way I think there's just the bad guy and the other bad guy.


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## James Long

mitchflorida said:


> I am just kidding. It isn't censorship, it is just hard-fisted business negotiating on both sides. Funny how the people on this board think there has to be a "good guy" and "bad guy" in this dispute. There are just two businessmen both trying to make as much money as they think is fair. Don't make it anything different than that.


Just remember ... it was Fox that called in censorship. We're talking more about what Fox claims than what you are claiming - and they have not posted a "just kidding".

At the risk of being counted as a supporter or someone who cancelled their service, I visited the Keep Fox News website. They are posting regular updates ... Anything they can find on the Internet (or create and then link to?) that hurts DISH's reputation.

DISH's site just has Mr Ergen's video. No piling on of irrelevant links and stories. While it would be easy to find and link a lot of "I hate Fox" stories it seems DISH has taken the high road. They made their statement ... they don't need to get in the gutter.

It reminds me of DirecTV and The Weather Channel. When the channel dropped The Weather Channel posted all sorts of attacks on DirecTV including filing FCC complaints against WeatherNation. They went in to full attack mode ... and it made me wonder how DirecTV could ever do business with The Weather Channel again (the answer is money).

Fox News and Fox Business will be back on DISH ... but I hope Fox (that is Fox Entertainment) can get away from the insult attacks. Loaded language such as "censorship" does not help anyone.


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## mitchflorida

"DISH's site just has Mr Ergen's video. No piling on of irrelevant links and stories. While it would be easy to find and link a lot of "I hate Fox" stories it seems DISH has taken the high road. "

You are really hilarious, even if unintentionally. Ergen went on the air on Christmas Eve and called Fox "extortionists" and "hostage-takers". . . on Christmas Eve for goodness sake. You obviously have a blind spot and can't see the other side of the argument, just Dish's point of view.


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## James Long

Reading is fundamental. I mentioned that video ... the point is DISH made their statement and are standing behind it.

Fox is continuing to pile on - apparently linking any negative press it can find. Fox seems to be going for the outrageous claim of the day. "90,000 have cancelled". "It takes several 45 minute calls to cancel." "DISH sucked in 2012." It looks more like anti-DISH trolls on any Internet forum than professional business communications.

DISH is willing to let the CEO (Joe Clayton) and and Chairman (Charles Ergen) speak directly to subscribers. They look the camera in the eye and state their side of the story. That is worth something.


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## lparsons21

I've been wondering in the back of my mind what if Dish told Fox here's the only deal we'll make and only by such and such date. Past that date and no deal whatsoever. And then carry through with it.


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## Stewart Vernon

I think if FOX continues to tie renewal of News/Business to FS1/FS2/FXX or whatever channel they are trying to get more money for... that Dish will continue to ignore them, until that other channel's contract comes up for renewal... then at that time Dish will weigh IF that additional money is worth it for that channel... and if it is then we have a new deal... if not, then that channel will go dark too.

I can't blame FOX for trying to sneak in requests for more money... but I can blame them for lying about it and making claims of "censorship" that are designed to get people riled up over an untruthful thing.

All other things aside... but involving their news personalities in the inflammatory claims of "censorship" really causes me to doubt their intentions to negotiate fairly or to factually report news if their channel comes back.

I grant you, all the news channels have problems... but when you stick your news people in the middle of your negotiation and use them for shock value to basically lie, it calls into question their credibility as newscasters.

In these sorts of negotiations I expect both sides to exaggerate the truth a bit to suit them... but I can't say I've ever seen a side, either side, go to the point of where FOX has gone here on this one.


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## mwdxer

How things change. As one person posted, we still have a ton of channels to watch. I remember the day when we were lucky to have one B&W channel OTA. If we had two, it was fantastic.


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## BqWUDUDj

Does FoxNews work with Roku and PlayOn? I can bring up the live feed of FoxNews on my computer from the "Watch Live TV" button of www.foxnews.com and with my cable provider credentials but when I try to send the video to my roku TV it never connects. Hulu videos can go to roku and I was able to see lots of other stuff (personal pictures, videos, Animal Planet channel, Hulu channel) so it seems like there's something specific to the fox video that's causing trouble.

Can anyone else get FoxNews's live feed on their TV via roku?

The instability of the dish channel lineup (first CNN, now FOX) has driven me to purchase Roku/PlayOn and explore alternate ways to get video feeds -- a loss for dish.


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## PCampbell

Do people really miss these channels that much? When CNN was dark you had Fox, now Fox is dark and you have CNN. The 3 networks still have national news free OTA in most areas and the Fox and CNN websites still work ( yes you have to read it ). There lots of ways to get the news not just paying more each year for TV.


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## mitchflorida

BqWUDUDj said:


> Does FoxNews work with Roku and PlayOn? I can bring up the live feed of FoxNews on my computer from the "Watch Live TV" button of www.foxnews.com and with my cable provider credentials but when I try to send the video to my roku TV it never connects. Hulu videos can go to roku and I was able to see lots of other stuff (personal pictures, videos, Animal Planet channel, Hulu channel) so it seems like there's something specific to the fox video that's causing trouble.
> 
> Can anyone else get FoxNews's live feed on their TV via roku?
> 
> The instability of the dish channel lineup (first CNN, now FOX) has driven me to purchase Roku/PlayOn and explore alternate ways to get video feeds -- a loss for dish.


The only way to get Fox News Live feed is to be a current subscriber of a cable provider other than Dish and login at Fox News Go. The Fox News app on Roku just plays excerpts and video clips from the last few day's previous shows.

You can watch Fox News live on an Android device and then mirror it to a Roku 3, but that doesn't use the Fox News Roku app.


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## WestDC

mitchflorida said:


> The Fox News app on Roku just plays excerpts and video clips from the last few day's previous shows.


Same as the APP on XBOX


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## lparsons21

mitchflorida said:


> The only way to get Fox News Live feed is to be a current subscriber of a cable provider other than Dish and login at Fox News Go. The Fox News app on Roku just plays excerpts and video clips from the last few day's previous shows.
> 
> You can watch Fox News live on an Android device and then mirror it to a Roku 3, but that doesn't use the Fox News Roku app.


Hardly the only way, there is also SiriusXM if you just have to have your 'fix'! No pretty faces, but the same info-tainment that FNC provides.


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## BqWUDUDj

mitchflorida said:


> The only way to get Fox News Live feed is to be a current subscriber of a cable provider other than Dish and login at Fox News Go. The Fox News app on Roku just plays excerpts and video clips from the last few day's previous shows.


To rephrase: I can see the Fox News Live feed with my cable provider credentials. This is the feed that I want to mirror to roku but it doesn't work for me. I can mirror other feeds from other sites but perhaps the Fox News Live feed uses a different codec or something. I would like to know if someone else can project the Fox News Live onto their TV via roku. Is the problem I'm seeing on my side or can nobody view the live feed via roku/playon.


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## BqWUDUDj

PCampbell said:


> Do people really miss these channels that much? When CNN was dark you had Fox, now Fox is dark and you have CNN. The 3 networks still have national news free OTA in most areas and the Fox and CNN websites still work ( yes you have to read it ). There lots of ways to get the news not just paying more each year for TV.


Yes. I also missed Forensic Files when CNN went dark. Forensic Files (which HLN plays nowadays almost 24/7) is like adult bedtime stories. Peter Thomas' narration helps me relax for sleep each night.


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## Jhon69

Stewart Vernon said:


> I think if FOX continues to tie renewal of News/Business to FS1/FS2/FXX or whatever channel they are trying to get more money for... that Dish will continue to ignore them, until that other channel's contract comes up for renewal... then at that time Dish will weigh IF that additional money is worth it for that channel... and if it is then we have a new deal... if not, then that channel will go dark too.
> 
> I can't blame FOX for trying to sneak in requests for more money... but I can blame them for lying about it and making claims of "censorship" that are designed to get people riled up over an untruthful thing.
> 
> All other things aside... but involving their news personalities in the inflammatory claims of "censorship" really causes me to doubt their intentions to negotiate fairly or to factually report news if their channel comes back.
> 
> I grant you, all the news channels have problems... but when you stick your news people in the middle of your negotiation and use them for shock value to basically lie, it calls into question their credibility as newscasters.
> 
> In these sorts of negotiations I expect both sides to exaggerate the truth a bit to suit them... but I can't say I've ever seen a side, either side, go to the point of where FOX has gone here on this one.
> 
> The interesting thing about this is I have several channels and I am trying to renew those channels,but then I say" pay my price or I will do everything in my power to hurt your business." Now in the dictionary there is a word for this and for an individual this would be illegal to do,
> 
> but I guess corporations are different.If Fox pulled those other channels that would be breach of contract,unless the contract expired.
> 
> That said I will just add that I want my Fox News at Dish prices,so I will always support Dish! Stand Firm Charlie!! No Blinking!!!.


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## knot

BqWUDUDj said:


> To rephrase: I can see the Fox News Live feed with my cable provider credentials. This is the feed that I want to mirror to roku but it doesn't work for me. I can mirror other feeds from other sites but perhaps the Fox News Live feed uses a different codec or something. I would like to know if someone else can project the Fox News Live onto their TV via roku. Is the problem I'm seeing on my side or can nobody view the live feed via roku/playon.


You need to install the playon extension into your browser. It will create a Playmark folder in play on on the roku so you can view it from there. The playon website has instructions.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using DBSTalk mobile app


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## BqWUDUDj

knot said:


> You need to install the playon extension into your browser. It will create a Playmark folder in play on on the roku so you can view it from there. The playon website has instructions.


Have you done it with Fox News Live? I've tried adding it to PlayMark and also directly with the Cast to TV button but neither works for Fox News Live. The same steps work fine for hulu but fox news doesn't want to show on the roku 3 for me. The roku just spins with "Preparing Video Stream" instead of waiting a few seconds and then showing video.


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## mitchflorida

BqWUDUDj said:


> Have you done it with Fox News Live? I've tried adding it to PlayMark and also directly with the Cast to TV button but neither works for Fox News Live. The same steps work fine for hulu but fox news doesn't want to show on the roku 3 for me. The roku just spins with "Preparing Video Stream" instead of waiting a few seconds and then showing video.


Can you play Fox News on an Android 4.4.2 Tablet? those are designed to mirror with the Roku 3.


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## Barrysb

FWIW, I've successfully have used an AppleTV with Airplay on an iPad to view FNC on my big screen. However, I find the Fox News iPad app problematic. I use the link to Live TV found on the FNC web site. Not sure if this might apply in your case or not.


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## mwdxer

I have the Roku LT and I cannot mirror, but I can cast some stations with a tablet, but since I am not a fan of FOX News, I have never tried.


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## knot

BqWUDUDj said:


> Have you done it with Fox News Live? I've tried adding it to PlayMark and also directly with the Cast to TV button but neither works for Fox News Live. The same steps work fine for hulu but fox news doesn't want to show on the roku 3 for me. The roku just spins with "Preparing Video Stream" instead of waiting a few seconds and then showing video.


Yes I am watching fox news live now. I do not have cable. I just use a livestream link to playon on roku 3.


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## Nashcat

knot said:


> Yes I am watching fox news live now. I do not have cable. I just use a livestream link to playon on roku 3.


I don't understand. How exactly are you streaming FNC live to begin with? What credentials are you using?


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## BqWUDUDj

I guess I'll open a ticket with roku then. I made a PlayMark channel from the National Zoo panda bear feed and then, to be fair and balanced, also channels from Elephant and Donkey webcams . Those show up fine. Yet Fox News Live still gives me trouble.

I'm not into consumer electronics and don't have various tablets and such to test with.


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## patmurphey

PCampbell said:


> Do people really miss these channels that much? When CNN was dark you had Fox, now Fox is dark and you have CNN. The 3 networks still have national news free OTA in most areas and the Fox and CNN websites still work ( yes you have to read it ). There lots of ways to get the news not just paying more each year for TV.


Yes, The current situation has bolstered my view. None of the other channels have the depth and quality of programming, in addition to just the news. The accusations of bias are unfounded and expressed by those who obviously don't watch very much. The only really right wing host, Hannity, bends over backwards to let the other side express their views.


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## BqWUDUDj

What bugs me the most is the instability of the lineup. I could understand Dish dropping Fox. I wouldn't like it, it's probably a bad business decision, but at least it'd be over and done with. Then at least I could plan things and switch providers, taking one or two year contracts to get good rates.

But these silly games with blacking out CNN / HLN / TCM first and then bringing it back; then Fox going away and leaving us in limbo. It's ridiculous. Plus the nonsense they did with blockbuster last year -- including disks by mail as part of a package and then discontinuing that... Stop futzing around already. I'd like to have something I could rely on. Who knows what other channels dish will black out next.

A pox on both their houses, I say.


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## eudoxia

patmurphey said:


> Yes, The current situation has bolstered my view. None of the other channels have the depth and quality of programming, in addition to just the news. The accusations of bias are unfounded and expressed by those who obviously don't watch very much. The only really right wing host, Hannity, bends over backwards to let the other side express their views.


"Bias unfounded" wow...I was forced to watch Fox news for years because family had it on 24/7 and it's a different universe they create for all who watch. Where the world is a scary place and can be summed up in simple bumper stickers "Death panels", "Benghazi", "Fast & Furious", "IRS".

That being said we need are Fox news back, this is way too long without it...I'm starting to miss the show (I like Shep though)...


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## Paul Secic

PCampbell said:


> Do people really miss these channels that much? When CNN was dark you had Fox, now Fox is dark and you have CNN. The 3 networks still have national news free OTA in most areas and the Fox and CNN websites still work ( yes you have to read it ). There lots of ways to get the news not just paying more each year for TV.


No!


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## camo

When I had Dish it was always an ongoing issue. Some of the carriage drops I could live with. Example if Viacom dropped off the face of the earth I would ecstatic. But thats just me, I dislike 90% of their programming and realize its a big chunk of the programming cost but I will never watch. Others hate sports like ESPN, so I just can't wait for a la carte to become the normal. Then disputes will end, customers will order what they want and be happy. Crappy (trash channels few watch will go under).


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## pinkertonfloyd

BqWUDUDj said:


> What bugs me the most is the instability of the lineup. I could understand Dish dropping Fox. I wouldn't like it, it's probably a bad business decision, but at least it'd be over and done with. Then at least I could plan things and switch providers, taking one or two year contracts to get good rates.
> 
> But these silly games with blacking out CNN / HLN / TCM first and then bringing it back; then Fox going away and leaving us in limbo. It's ridiculous. Plus the nonsense they did with blockbuster last year -- including disks by mail as part of a package and then discontinuing that... Stop futzing around already. I'd like to have something I could rely on. Who knows what other channels dish will black out next.
> 
> A pox on both their houses, I say.


It's just the timing of the contracts, the older channels were all probably signed up originally when Dish was launched, so many of the contracts will have similar ending dates. Some get moved due to contracts being extended during negotiations (something that Dish claims they offered Fox, to keep on the current contract while they still work out a deal, but Fox declined).

Basically in the world of programming, it's similar to how unions deal contracts, ieL the UAW picks one of the automakers to negotiate a deal, then the other companies are to fall in line. I believe Dish is the first major contract up since FS1/2 was launched, and they're trying to use Dish as the "bar" for the other providers to follow. (I think someone said Directv has a re-up with Fox later this year also). (That's why Directv doesn'te advertise "hey dish, get your fox here", because secretly they're rooting for Dish to win, as it'll help them out also. Fox Sports 1/2 is technically under the Speed/FuelTV contracts, and Fox is tring to replace those standing contracts as part of the renewal for Fox News (a far more popular channel).

It's funny... the content providers see Disney's ESPN monopoly, and want to be "me too", so they create these sports channels... and I'll tell you, someone needs to tell them 1) They're NOT at the same level as ESPN, and 2) Oversaturation is going to kill them.

Lets face it in the last few years, Comcast, NBCSN, CBSSN, Fox Sports 1/2 have all come in, and none have anything near the level of programming as ESPN, but I bet they don't act that why during talks.

Personally, I think there's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much Sports programming, and really, I'd rather be able to throw these channels into a Package, which is what the sat/cable guys want, but the programmers don't as it give them leverage for other shows, so they put language that these channels are required to be part of x-level package. ugh!


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## BqWUDUDj

Heard back from PlayOn tech support. :-(



> The Fox News live stream will not work with the PlayOn browser extension. The Fox News website is experiencing a problem with its live streams that makes it impossible to for the videos to be streamed using PlayOn. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do except wait for the website to be fixed.


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## 356B

I was sure wrong on this deal...I would have bet a days pay this would be settled quickly...how long did the CNN shut down go on?


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## ljr01

I have Dish in an RV. I just found out that in addition to losing my (owned) Hopper and almost $400 to covert my rooftop antenna (Winegard SK-1000) to Direct, I will lose all HD programming. 

Any other alternatives for an, almost, full time RVer? My only internet connection is via cellular MIFI when it works. 


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


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## camo

BqWUDUDj said:


> Heard back from PlayOn tech support. :-(


So this is probably Fox playing their little game and preventing Dish customers from viewing the open stream.


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## Slamminc11

patmurphey said:


> Yes, The current situation has bolstered my view. None of the other channels have the depth and quality of programming, in addition to just the news. The accusations of bias are unfounded and expressed by those who obviously don't watch very much. The only really right wing host, Hannity, bends over backwards to let the other side express their views.


WOW! seriously!?!?!


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## BobCulp

camo
Posted Today, 10:49 AM

I was sure wrong on this deal...I would have bet a days pay this would be settled quickly...how long did the CNN shut down go on?

CNN was off for a month. If I remember, AMC was out for three months a few years ago. There should be a time limit for any channel to come back on.

I was at a restaurant on a weekend and they did not have the football game on, because of the Direct TV- NBC local dispute, which lasted about 2 weeks. It is not just us, but any bar restaurant erc can hurt from the blackouts. They lost many customers because of it.


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## camo

BobCulp said:



> camo
> Posted Today, 10:49 AM
> 
> I was sure wrong on this deal...I would have bet a days pay this would be settled quickly...how long did the CNN shut down go on?
> 
> CNN was off for a month. If I remember, AMC was out for three months a few years ago. There should be a time limit for any channel to come back on.
> 
> I was at a restaurant on a weekend and they did not have the football game on, because of the Direct TV- NBC local dispute, which lasted about 2 weeks. It is not just us, but any bar restaurant erc can hurt from the blackouts. They lost many customers because of it.


 356B posted that. I didn't ....


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## mwdxer

When we lost Fisher (KATU-2-Portland/KOMO-4-Seattle), those were gone for 6 months! Many friends were watching their ABC online. Fortunately I have ABC OTA, but in SD only, but at least it was there. Friends in the Seattle area are complaining that Dish and KVOS Bellingham WA has not closed their deal. KVOS runs METV and there are a lot of people that like the old shows. They are too far to get the station OTA apparently or do not have the antenna. What I heard was, KVOS forgot about renewing until Dish dropped in 1/1/15. Now they are trying to get a deal going to be back on. I wonder how many markets lose a certain OTA station that we do not hear about? Of course, FOX or CNN, etc, we all lose so we know about them. But I bet these smaller disputes go on all of the time.


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## Stewart Vernon

356B said:


> I was sure wrong on this deal...I would have bet a days pay this would be settled quickly...how long did the CNN shut down go on?


If this were just about FOX News/Business, my impression is that there never would have been a blackout in the first place. Charlie has said that he agreed to an increase in those channels... but FOX asked for more money for some other already-under-contract channel (we speculate as to whether that was FS1, FS2, FXX, or what)...

The longer this goes, the more sure you can be it is about more than just FOX News/Business... because if it were just about those FOX would already have come to an agreement based on the info that has been floated so far.


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## camo

Stewart Vernon said:


> If this were just about FOX News/Business, my impression is that there never would have been a blackout in the first place. Charlie has said that he agreed to an increase in those channels... but FOX asked for more money for some other already-under-contract channel (we speculate as to whether that was FS1, FS2, FXX, or what)...
> 
> The longer this goes, the more sure you can be it is about more than just FOX News/Business... because if it were just about those FOX would already have come to an agreement based on the info that has been floated so far.


So potentially this could be the precursor for a major departing of Fox channels from Dish if its more than just a dispute over Fox News/Business.


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## TechnoCat

camo said:


> So potentially this could be the precursor for a major departing of Fox channels from Dish if its more than just a dispute over Fox News/Business.


That's a stretch. Even if you accept Fox's fabricated 90K subscriber losses number (which no rational person would, although some media parrot-heads do), the ratings and numbers are clear. Dish has lost that 90K (0.6%) or less while Fox News has lost 14-21%. Nominally we'd expect 13% because that's Dish's fraction of the market, but the ratings drops have shown mostly 18%-20%.

Next, do the financials. Dish loses in subscriber fees. Reduced revenue. But Fox loses not just in those fees (remember, Dish and other pay a carriage fee, that's what this game of chicken is all about) but also in advertising dollars. Advertising is guaranteed eyeballs, so Fox now has to make good on the past two weeks, which will be done by placing comp ads. (In other words, Proctor & Gamble will get some free ads to make up for the underperforming ads, but those will come at the "expense" of paid ads that could have been for General Motors product... you can't just add more ad time.) Which imposes not just income loss, but management overhead. Negotiations. Hard questions internally.

I'm surprised it lasted this long, but I suspect Rupert and Charlie aren't exactly attending poetry readings together regardless.


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## patmurphey

All Fox News fans don't worry - Fox News will return January 20th. I have an installation scheduled to add a DirecTV HD receiver to my main TV on January19th so that we can have live broadcasts of Fox News for $25.99 a month. I have no doubt that once I have incurred a 24 month contract, Fox News will be back on Dish. :grin:

I am making the sacrifice for the greater good...


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## inkahauts

camo said:


> So potentially this could be the precursor for a major departing of Fox channels from Dish if its more than just a dispute over Fox News/Business.


I doubt it. I just think Charlie would rather save the money till those contracts come up to then sign a new contract. I question if he couldn't get one done without the other channels anyway to be honest. I believe FOX is a pain but I have to question if Charlie is also stonewalling now once all this really started based on his mo of late.


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## Laxguy

ljr01 said:


> I have Dish in an RV. I just found out that in addition to losing my (owned) Hopper and almost $400 to covert my rooftop antenna (Winegard SK-1000) to Direct, I will lose all HD programming.
> 
> Any other alternatives for an, almost, full time RVer? My only internet connection is via cellular MIFI when it works.


An additional dish for when you're set up for more than a day? (One you manually set up next to or on top of the RV.)


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## ljr01

Laxguy said:


> An additional dish for when you're set up for more than a day? (One you manually set up next to or on top of the RV.)


You are correct but it really hurts that I spent over $2,000 a few months ago to avoid doing that anymore. I've gotten pretty good at setting up a portable dish but it seems like I always end up doing it at night in the rain.

There's too much going on in the world to be without a news channel so I may have to bite the bullet.

Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


----------



## Laxguy

Oh, of course the RV Gods will make it that way! News, though, can be digested pretty well in SD, at least for my druthers. Then when you're set up in the sunshine for a few days, you can set up the portable dish, record a zillion things in HD to watch later. 

¡Vaya con Dios!


----------



## BobCulp

When you all on this thread get a chance, turn on channel 204 to hear Charlie Ergen brand new message. 

Basicly, Dish & Fox News have agreed on major terms to have Fox back for a long term agreement . Final contractual details still needs to be worked out.


----------



## James Long

*Thank you for your patience!*

We are pleased to announce that DISH and Fox have agreed to the major terms of a new long term agreement that will restore Fox News and Fox Business to our customers. We are working with Fox on a few contractual details but we are optimistic that these channels will be restored very quickly.

We know these negotiations were frustrating and we cannot thank you enough for remaining patient as we work to finalize this agreement. We were very appreciative of all the comments, emails and phone calls we received from our customers that were very supportive of our stance to fight for fair rates and terms. But we also appreciated the feedback that was critical of our decisions. These comments to DISH and to Fox ultimately brought our respective teams together in a spirit of compromise so that our mutual customers would no longer be impacted.

Again, thank you very much for standing by us during this time. With this new agreement, you will be able to enjoy Fox News and Fox Business for many years to come.

We sincerely thank you for your patience and for being a valued DISH customer.

http://dishstandsforyou.com/

(No change to the http://keepfoxnews.com/ website yet.)


----------



## bluegras

now would it possible if we can the blaze added in hd on channel 212 for all of us who would like to see added in HD


----------



## TimCoh

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fox-news-back-dish-deal-232254053.html


----------



## Stewart Vernon

bluegras said:


> now would it possible if we can the blaze added in hd on channel 212 for all of us who would like to see added in HD


Yeah, I would like to see the Blaze stay in HD and be mapped to the same channel as its SD counterpart.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

*DISH and FOX News Reach Content Carriage Agreement*

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. & NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- DISH Network L.L.C. and FOX News Network, L.L.C. announced today that they have reached a multi-year agreement for carriage of FOX News Channel and FOX Business Network. These channels are now available to DISH customers with qualifying programming packages.

Tim Carry, FOX News and FOX Business executive vice president of distribution, and Warren Schlichting, DISH senior vice president of programming, jointly stated:
"We thank the viewers of FOX News and FOX Business and DISH customers for their patience throughout this process."

Terms of the agreement were not disclosed.

*About DISH*
DISH Network Corp. (NASDAQ: DISH), through its subsidiary DISH Network L.L.C., provides approximately 14.041 million satellite TV customers, as of Sept. 30, 2014, with the highest-quality programming and technology with the most choices at the best value. Subscribers enjoy a high definition line-up with more than 200 national HD channels, the most international channels, and award-winning HD and DVR technology. DISH Network Corp. is a Fortune 250 company. Visit www.dish.com.

*About FOX News*
Owned by 21st Century Fox, FOX News operates the FOX News Channel (FNC), FOX Business Network (FBN), FOX News Radio, FOXNews.com and FOX News Latino. It also produces "FOX News Sunday" on FOX Broadcasting Company and FOX News Edge. A top five cable network, FNC has been the most watched news channel in the country for thirteen years and according to Public Policy Polling, is the most trusted television news source in the country. FNC is available in more than 90 million homes and dominates the cable news landscape, routinely notching the top ten programs in the genre.

Source: DISH Network L.L.C.


----------



## Rotryrkt

Stewart Vernon said:


> Yeah, I would like to see the Blaze stay in HD and be mapped to the same channel as its SD counterpart.


Same here and I would like to see the Blaze in the AT200 package!


----------



## James Long

[EDIT: Stewart posted the press release quicker ... also found at Fox Business.]

http://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/2015/01/15/dish-and-fox-news-reach-content-carriage-agreement/

Waiting for uplink changes ...


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I was just finishing up eating and saw the press release email from Dish... So I came here to spread the good news to see you guys already talking about it, but at least I got the press release up before they uplinked the channels.

Since the release says "these channels are available now" I would expect the uplink to happen very soon, unless someone got press-happy and sent out that release too soon. I did check the channels, and saw that they are still showing Newsmax and Blaze at the moment.


----------



## James Long

It usually takes my receiver a couple of minutes longer to process Uplink Activity than the computer I use to monitor the satellite streams. Sometimes I'll have it posted (manually) to DBSTalk before the receiver refreshes the guide and shows the new content. 


BTW: There is a scroll running on The Blaze channel 205 suggesting people tune to channel 204 for an update on the negotiations.

206 NewsMax got the correct EPG for their channel during the dispute ... I suppose Fox News and Fox Business will get their old channels back.


----------



## James Long

*32 changes seen 1/15/15 at 7:11pm ET (v03)*
http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/215836-uplink-activity-for-january-2015/#entry3327754

... No Fox News changes ...


----------



## James Long

Video feed on 205 just cut to Fox. 206 is Fox Business (SD so far).


----------



## Nashcat

The OP is pleased.


----------



## James Long

And now the rest of the story ...

*46 changes seen 1/15/15 at 7:21pm ET (v04)*

*New Uplinks / Mappings - Channels Available*
6908 FXNWS Fox News added to 119° TP 6 (SD Hidden) *AVAILABLE*
6926 FXNWS Fox News added to 119° TP 6 (SD Hidden) *AVAILABLE*
4206 FOXB (206 HD) FOX Business News added to 129° TP 29 (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 29 Ch 9476
4206 FOXB (206 HD) FOX Business News added to 72.7° TP 26 (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 29 Ch 9476
4341 FOXB (206 HD) FOX Business News added to 129° 16s55 (Hawaii) (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 29 Ch 9476 - Regional Restriction
4341 FOXB (206 HD) FOX Business News added to 129° 9s1 (Alaska) (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 29 Ch 9476 - Regional Restriction
5527 FOXB (206 HD) FOX Business News added to 129° 16s55 (Hawaii) (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 29 Ch 9476 - Regional Restriction
5527 FOXB (206 HD) FOX Business News added to 129° 9s1 (Alaska) (HD Hidden) *AVAILABLE* EPG linked to 129° TP 29 Ch 9476 - Regional Restriction
9476 FOXB (206 HD) FOX Business News added to 129° TP 29 (HD Instant Order) *AVAILABLE*
9476 FOXB (206 HD) FOX Business News added to 72.7° TP 26 (HD Instant Order) *AVAILABLE*

*Channels Renamed*
205 NEWS Fox News renamed FXNWS Fox News (119° TP 6 SD Instant Order)
205 NEWS Fox News renamed FXNWS Fox News (61.5° TP 15 SD MPEG4 Instant Order)
205 NEWS Fox News renamed FXNWS Fox News (77° TP 26 SD MPEG4 Instant Order)
206 NEWSX NEWSMAX renamed FOXB FOX Business News (110° TP 8 SD Hidden)
206 NEWSX NEWSMAX renamed FOXB FOX Business News (61.5° TP 16 SD MPEG4 Hidden)
4545 NEWSX NEWSMAX renamed FOXB FOX Business News (110° TP 8 SD Hidden)
4545 NEWSX NEWSMAX renamed FOXB FOX Business News (61.5° TP 16 SD MPEG4 Hidden)
4546 DISH DISH Info Channel renamed FOXB FOX Business News (129° 16s55 (Hawaii) HD Hidden)
4546 DISH DISH Info Channel renamed FOXB FOX Business News (129° 9s1 (Alaska) HD Hidden)
4546 DISH DISH Info Channel renamed FOXB FOX Business News (129° TP 29 HD Hidden)
4546 DISH DISH Info Channel renamed FOXB FOX Business News (72.7° TP 26 HD Hidden)
4547 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (119° TP 6 SD Hidden)
4547 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (61.5° TP 15 SD MPEG4 Hidden)
4547 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (77° TP 26 SD MPEG4 Hidden)
4548 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (129° 12s1 (Alaska) HD Hidden)
4548 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (129° 6s55 (Hawaii) HD Hidden)
4548 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (129° TP 28 HD Hidden)
4548 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (72.7° TP 19 HD Hidden)
4205 NEWS ?? Fox News ?? renamed FXNWS Fox News (205 HD) (129° TP 28 HD Hidden)
4205 NEWS ?? Fox News ?? renamed FXNWS Fox News (205 HD) (72.7° TP 19 HD Hidden)
4340 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (205 HD) (129° 12s1 (Alaska) HD Hidden)
4340 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (205 HD) (129° 6s55 (Hawaii) HD Hidden)
5563 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (205 HD) (129° 12s1 (Alaska) HD Hidden)
5563 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (205 HD) (129° 6s55 (Hawaii) HD Hidden)
9477 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (205 HD) (129° TP 28 HD)
9477 NEWS renamed FXNWS Fox News (205 HD) (72.7° TP 19 HD)

*Uplinks Removed*
4206 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 129° TP 29 (HD Hidden)
4206 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 72.7° TP 26 (HD Hidden)
4341 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 129° 16s55 (Hawaii) (HD Hidden)
4341 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 129° 9s1 (Alaska) (HD Hidden)
5527 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 129° 16s55 (Hawaii) (HD Hidden)
5527 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 129° 9s1 (Alaska) (HD Hidden)
6908 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 119° TP 6 (SD Hidden)
6926 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 119° TP 6 (SD Hidden)
9476 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 129° TP 29 (HD Instant Order)
9476 DISH DISH Info Channel removed from 72.7° TP 26 (HD Instant Order)

9524 Channels


----------



## BobCulp

Just checked, Guide is now updated for 205, 206.

204 still showing update message from Charlie.

Reminder that Blaze is on 212 and Newsmax on 223


----------



## altidude

patmurphey said:


> All Fox News fans don't worry - Fox News will return January 20th. I have an installation scheduled to add a DirecTV HD receiver to my main TV on January19th so that we can have live broadcasts of Fox News for $25.99 a month. I have no doubt that once I have incurred a 24 month contract, Fox News will be back on Dish. :grin:
> 
> I am making the sacrifice for the greater good...


Thanks, brother, for taking that bullet for us!


----------



## Jim148

Fox is back now.


----------



## James Long

http://www.keepfoxnews.com/ has changed to a thank you page.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

It would appear, at least for the moment, that the HD feed of Blaze has gone back into the shadows. I was so hoping they would keep that. I like to float around all the news channels but I tend to skip over the SD-only feeds, fair or not.


----------



## BqWUDUDj

patmurphey said:


> All Fox News fans don't worry - Fox News will return January 20th. I have an installation scheduled to add a DirecTV HD receiver to my main TV on January19th so that we can have live broadcasts of Fox News for $25.99 a month. I have no doubt that once I have incurred a 24 month contract, Fox News will be back on Dish. :grin:
> 
> I am making the sacrifice for the greater good...


Thank you Pat. I also invested a tidy sum getting alternate means of news and entertainment so that I'm not as reliant on dish.


----------



## Jim5506

A thought just occurred to me, I wonder what the balance was for Dish considering losing a certain number of subscribers vs fees they did not have to pay for all their subscribers to FOX during the outage.

I had never considered that factor in the situation.

Hypothetically they lost 20,000 subs @ $80 per month - that's $16 million per month, but lets say they pay FOX $2 (I don't know what the real number is) per sub and they don't have to pay that for their 13 million subs - that's $26 million per month.

Now that the channels are back on the air Dish may have to start recovering the losses, but they probably were not hurting fiscally at all.


----------



## eudoxia

:joy: :joy: :joy:


----------



## Cable Lover

I never thought I would miss Greta Van Susteren's face, but I did


----------



## Laxguy

You ought to write to her! 

I haven't seen her face in two years, and it maybe another few decades before I do!


----------



## Wildblue

Fox is back, all is right.

Two words...

Anna Kooiman


----------



## Nashcat

Looks like the ability to use Dish credentials to stream FNC online might not have been part of the deal. Still.


----------



## James Long

I would not expect the credentials to work immediately. Especially if they didn't work before Fox News left.


----------



## Laxguy

Jim5506 said:


> A thought just occurred to me, I wonder what the balance was for Dish considering losing a certain number of subscribers vs fees they did not have to pay for all their subscribers to FOX during the outage.
> 
> I had never considered that factor in the situation.
> 
> Hypothetically they lost 20,000 subs @ $80 per month - that's $16 million per month, but lets say they pay FOX $2 (I don't know what the real number is) per sub and they don't have to pay that for their 13 million subs - that's $26 million per month.
> 
> Now that the channels are back on the air Dish may have to start recovering the losses, but they probably were not hurting fiscally at all.


That'd be $1.6 million, commenting on math only.....


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Laxguy beat me to the math correction. Also, there's no reason to think anywhere near 20,000 people left Dish over this. I know someone at FOX randomly grabbed at a 90,000 customer figure... but there's not even proof that 1000 people left Dish over this.

I bet Dish didn't see anything different in their normal quarterly churn whenever the Q42014 and Q12015 numbers become public.


----------



## James Long

It is strange math ... the estimated $26 million is for a month (the channels were off three weeks) - the theoretical $1.6 million would be monthly. It would not necessarily reflect 20k customers who left - customers who may have chosen DISH could be scared off by "yet another channel dispute". Even though all carriers have had a dispute at one time or another.


It annoys me that Fox kept feeding their keepfoxnews.com website even though negotiations were ongoing and coming to a conclusion. The site is just the "we're back" page now (until they need it for the next dispute with whomever) but it was a haven for DISH bashing stories. A fresh attack nearly every day. That does not seem to be a nice way of negotiating.

Fox left their "leave DISH" site up as long as they could. DISH changed their site to reflect the impending conclusion.

The least Fox could have done was back off on the attacks when the channel return became imminent. It leads me to wonder what issues remain unresolved. When will the next Fox channel come up for renewal where they can reopen their "leave DISH" site under some other name. 


Anyways - enough grousing from me. The channels are back ... be happy. I hope The Blaze and Newsmax get something out of their brief time in the spotlight near the other news channels. Channels 204 and 207 are available if they would agree to a permanent move - although Fox and the other "mainline" cable news channels may not like having them in the neighborhood.


----------



## Wildblue

I spoke too soon. My local Fox Network has NOT been restored. Got Fox News, Fox Business, but no Fox Network affiliate.

Looks like we won't be watching American Idol, NFL Playoff games, etc, after all.


----------



## Laxguy

If you put in your location in your profile, we wouldn't have to ask where "here" is. Where are you?


----------



## patmurphey

altidude said:


> Thanks, brother, for taking that bullet for us!


Earliest installation was scheduled for Jan 19. Cancelled, sorry DirecTV.


----------



## TechnoCat

Jim5506 said:


> Hypothetically they lost 20,000 subs @ $80 per month - that's $16 million per month, but lets say they pay FOX $2 (I don't know what the real number is) per sub and they don't have to pay that for their 13 million subs - that's $26 million per month.
> 
> Now that the channels are back on the air Dish may have to start recovering the losses, but they probably were not hurting fiscally at all.


Remember though that Dish pays per sub to all the content providers. That $80/month includes fees to locals, MSNBC, CNN, TNT, HDNet/AXS, etc. They do lose recurring revenue, but not as much recurring _profit _as you might expect.

The media is calling this a big win for Fox. What I've see though is that Fox didn't get nearly what they were asking for. Of course, Dish would have _liked _to have held the compensation line, but that wasn't going to happen regardless.


----------



## 356B

When fox went dark I thought I miss the likes of Bill, Megyn, and others, but...


----------



## lparsons21

TechnoCat said:


> The media is calling this a big win for Fox. What I've see though is that Fox didn't get nearly what they were asking for. Of course, Dish would have _liked _to have held the compensation line, but that wasn't going to happen regardless.


'the media' these days is mostly about eye-balls and click-bait. All to often their 'experts' really are 'former drips under pressure'!!


----------



## Wildblue

Wildblue said:


> I spoke too soon. My local Fox Network has NOT been restored. Got Fox News, Fox Business, but no Fox Network affiliate.
> 
> Looks like we won't be watching American Idol, NFL Playoff games, etc, after all.


I live in Alaska, greater Anchorage region


----------



## Willh

Wildblue said:


> I spoke too soon. My local Fox Network has NOT been restored. Got Fox News, Fox Business, but no Fox Network affiliate.
> 
> Looks like we won't be watching American Idol, NFL Playoff games, etc, after all.


your local Fox station is not owned by Fox


----------



## KyL416

Yeah, your Fox affiliate going away had nothing to do with the Fox News dispute.


----------



## James Long

Wildblue said:


> I live in Alaska, greater Anchorage region


Not related to Fox News and Fox Business ... but are your channels back now?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I forget where I read this... but somewhere (Broadband Reports maybe?) I saw some speculation that FOX News has gone from $1 to $1.50 per sub per month. No mention on FOX Business, but speculation that FOX Business has dropped to the same tier/package that FOX News is in... if true, that would be a de facto increase to FOX because the lower tier means more subscribers.

I have no specific or definitive knowledge of this outside the place I can't remember where I read the above.


----------



## tigerwillow1

"Fox News Channel is on track to earn $1.50 per cable subscriber per month in the not-too-distant future."

http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/16/media/fox-news-fee-increase/index.html?section=money_latest

If 50% of the package subscribers actually watch Fox News, they'll get $3 per viewer per month. Feels kinda high to me for something that's loaded with commercials too.


----------



## James Long

tigerwillow1 said:


> "Fox News Channel is on track to earn $1.50 per cable subscriber per month in the not-too-distant future."
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/16/media/fox-news-fee-increase/index.html?section=money_latest
> 
> If 50% of the package subscribers actually watch Fox News, they'll get $3 per viewer per month. Feels kinda high to me for something that's loaded with commercials too.


I'm not sure where you're getting the $3 from. By the way, Fox News' placement in AT120 and the Smart Pack delivers it to nearly all of of DISH's subscribers.

From the article:


> SNL Kagan senior analyst Derek Baine, who specializes in cable, said the channel currently receives about $1 per subscriber.
> 
> At first blush, $1.50 sounds high, he said, but "maybe it gets to $1.50 over three to five years."
> 
> He also speculated that the $1.50 figure includes both Fox News and its much smaller sibling Fox Business. "They are getting more aggressive with that channel," he said.


So today $1 ... 3-5 years $1.50. The article stated CNN gets about 61 cents and MSNBC half of that. Fox's rate does not seem to be too far out of line with the others - considering the popularity of the channel.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Yeah, the money amount didn't sound out of whack to me either. IF it is true that FOX Business drops to a lower tier, that might actually get FOX a lot more money so I'm surprised to not be reading more about that.

Oh... and it was Broadband Reports... someone commented in an article they had there. Also, someone else mentioned that Dish/FOX may also be close to agreeing to end the FOX suit over the DVR/AutoHop stuff... which probably means the next FOX O&O agreement (whenever that is) will include more On Demand, streaming, and delay of AutoHop like ABC and CBS now have.


----------



## Michael P

Stewart Vernon said:


> Yeah, I would like to see the Blaze stay in HD and be mapped to the same channel as its SD counterpart.


I mentioned The Blaze in HD when I posted a commend during the FNC blackout. I hope they do it. It's not for lack of bandwidth, ch 204 had both SD & HD versions which continued after FNC & FBC came back on line.


----------



## Wildblue

James Long said:


> Not related to Fox News and Fox Business ... but are your channels back now?


Looks like it just came back now.

If Fox affiliate disappearing had nothing to do with Fox, the Dish CS rep was way out to lunch.

Might not be saying much.


----------



## James Long

Michael P said:


> It's not for lack of bandwidth, ch 204 had both SD & HD versions which continued after FNC & FBC came back on line.


They may not want to make a permanent commitment of bandwidth to the channel which would prevent them from adding another channel in HD before new bandwidth is created (freed up from other use). DISH is close enough to zero available that the bandwidth cost may be more important than the monthly rights fee when deciding if a channel can be carried in HD.


----------



## Jaspear

James Long said:


> They may not want to make a permanent commitment of bandwidth to the channel which would prevent them from adding another channel in HD before new bandwidth is created (freed up from other use). DISH is close enough to zero available that the bandwidth cost may be more important than the monthly rights fee when deciding if a channel can be carried in HD.


Yeah, this is probably true. I also requested The Blaze to be changed to HD on 212 at the Dish Fox News pop up site. If you don't ask, you don't get. I don't think the rights fee is a problem since it popped up in HD on 205. Beck mentioned on his radio show that he was surprised (and happy) when that happened.


----------



## patmurphey

Some bandwidth is already committed to the Smithsonian Channel HD.


----------



## James Long

patmurphey said:


> Some bandwidth is already committed to the Smithsonian Channel HD.


The press release does not mention "HD" but I expect that Smithsonian Channel will be restored in HD. I'm surprised it has not been restored yet ... perhaps part of the agreement with CBS was to add the channel later in 2015.


----------



## mwdxer

It will be nice to see Smithsonian on Dish. I have it on the Roku. By my latest Dish bill, I see the price has gone up.


----------



## mitchflorida

When Dish had Smithsonian before, it wasn't even offered in SD. It was in a special tier with other HD channels. I believe it was called Platinum, now called Blockbuster at Home package. I would be surprised if Dish puts it in the 200 package or lower. It will likely be 250 or blockbuster.


----------



## James Long

mitchflorida said:


> When Dish had Smithsonian before, it wasn't even offered in SD. It was in a special tier with other HD channels. I believe it was called Platinum, now called Blockbuster at Home package.


When Platinum HD was introduced it was a HD only package ... but with the introduction of Blockbuster most channels got a SD equivalent and a couple of channels dropped to SD only.

Smithsonian was last in test (not available to customers) from 3/13/13 at 3:51pm ET until 9/11/13 at 4:16pm ET. It was also in test as a SD channel in 2012.


----------



## Jaspear

James Long said:


> The press release does not mention "HD" but I expect that Smithsonian Channel will be restored in HD. I'm surprised it has not been restored yet ... perhaps part of the agreement with CBS was to add the channel later in 2015.


Probably true. As for The Blaze, I wish they would at least down convert the HD, so that the feed on 212 is widescreen SD, rather than windowboxed 4x3. Doing that would improve the resolution, eliminating the need to zoom it to 16x9.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jaspear said:


> Probably true. As for The Blaze, I wish they would at least down convert the HD, so that the feed on 212 is widescreen SD, rather than windowboxed 4x3. Doing that would improve the resolution, eliminating the need to zoom it to 16x9.


The problem is... all the SD receivers out there on Dish accounts that would be unable to handle a widescreen SD channel make this a non-starter. I am not aware of any channel (at least in the US) being broadcast in SD widescreen. It's either HD widescreen or SD 4:3 to be most compatible with older equipment.


----------



## mwdxer

I wonder how many viewers out there still use the old CRT's?


----------



## James Long

mwdxer said:


> I wonder how many viewers out there still use the old CRT's?


At least half ... and when one considers second and third TVs the number would rise.
There are a lot of SD TVs still in service.


----------



## Jaspear

Stewart Vernon said:


> The problem is... all the SD receivers out there on Dish accounts that would be unable to handle a widescreen SD channel make this a non-starter. I am not aware of any channel (at least in the US) being broadcast in SD widescreen. It's either HD widescreen or SD 4:3 to be most compatible with older equipment.


Then come up with a new category of channel - Widescreen SD and place it next to the "standard" SD channel. I'll bet they could flag it so it only appears on HD compatible STB's.

I understand the real solution is more bandwidth, but this would work to improve the resolution on this class of channel; one that commands a premium price, but offered in a sub-premium format.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jaspear said:


> Then come up with a new category of channel - Widescreen SD and place it next to the "standard" SD channel. I'll bet they could flag it so it only appears on HD compatible STB's.
> 
> I understand the real solution is more bandwidth, but this would work to improve the resolution on this class of channel; one that commands a premium price, but offered in a sub-premium format.


But what you are suggesting would do just the opposite... you are suggesting a widescreen SD channel and the regular SD channel... which would essentially double the bandwidth requirement for that channel.

It isn't about "flagging" it for only HD receivers... the old SD-only receivers wouldn't be able to see/decode such a channel at all. That's the problem.

So your solution to bandwidth would be to use even more bandwidth? That's not going to happen.


----------



## Tiki God

After a couple of weeks with DirecTv I'd say the actual service itself is on par with what I had with Dish. The picture is as good if not better (I'm not sure my eyes could tell the difference). The Genie, for me, is not as versatile as the Hopper system. The hopper system to me is a bit flashier as well where the Genie seems a bit more basic. I like the fact that I have TVland in HD, but miss Boomerang, Esquire and The Blaze (not offered on Dtv) in the package I have (although I only watched them occasionally). Hopefully the billing snafus are worked out and I don't have to call each month for the $10 credit.

I would assume Dish was hurt by the whole Fox deal as I got an offer to come back that offered a $700 cash card and a $35 monthly rebate for the first year. That's over $1100 dollars, although I realize part of that would be to cover the contract cancellation at Dtv. Also, there is no contract to sign. I plan to honor my contract with DTV (unless of course they screw up in some way) but the offer was enough to make me think about it for a bit.


----------



## Jaspear

Stewart Vernon said:


> But what you are suggesting would do just the opposite... you are suggesting a widescreen SD channel and the regular SD channel... which would essentially double the bandwidth requirement for that channel.
> 
> It isn't about "flagging" it for only HD receivers... the old SD-only receivers wouldn't be able to see/decode such a channel at all.


The SD only receivers would see the regular SD channel. That's the point. Everyone would get the service optimized for the STB they have.



> So your solution to bandwidth would be to use even more bandwidth? That's not going to happen.


It would use more bandwidth, but I suspect considerably less than one HD channel.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jaspear said:


> The SD only receivers would see the regular SD channel. That's the point. Everyone would get the service optimized for the STB they have.
> 
> It would use more bandwidth, but I suspect considerably less than one HD channel.


Everyone sees the SD channel right now.

The "problem" you are trying to fix isn't really a fix at all.

The real fix is to carry the HD feed... but bandwidth is a problem. There's really not a whole lot to be gained (from Dish's perspective) by doing as you ask. The better solution is the HD feed when they get the bandwidth to do that, and some of that might come from the changes this year with obsoleting some more older receivers.


----------



## James Long

Jaspear said:


> It would use more bandwidth, but I suspect considerably less than one HD channel.


I recall an "aspect ratio" setting on the 501 receivers ... The firmware would need to be updated to letterbox or zoom 16x9 feeds, but I'd rather have 16x9 SD than letterboxed SD. Let the receiver do the letterboxing and use the full frame of the satellite feed for the picture instead of transmitting black bars.


----------



## Michael P

Jaspear said:


> Probably true. As for The Blaze, I wish they would at least down convert the HD, so that the feed on 212 is widescreen SD, rather than windowboxed 4x3. Doing that would improve the resolution, eliminating the need to zoom it to 16x9.


All you have to do is adjust the "zoom". When The Blaze is zoomed in all the way it fits my 32" HDTV perfectly, noting lost on the top/bottom or sides. However since I got to see the real HD feed, the zoomed-in SD feed pales in comparison. Newsmax OTOH has a strange letterbox, sometimes I have to zoom out a bit to not lose something on the top/bottom.


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## scooper

mwdxer said:


> I wonder how many viewers out there still use the old CRT's?


I have at least 4 CRT TVs that I can hookup, currently only 2 hooked up. That is in addition to ONE 32 inch 720p class LED 16x9 HDTV.


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## Jaspear

Michael P said:


> All you have to do is adjust the "zoom". When The Blaze is zoomed in all the way it fits my 32" HDTV perfectly, noting lost on the top/bottom or sides. However since I got to see the real HD feed, the zoomed-in SD feed pales in comparison.


I know about the zoom. I leave my Hopper set that way. Widescreen SD would eliminate the the zoom and improve resolution.

I agree with others above though. The ultimate solution is HD. I was just suggesting widescreen SD as a stop gap until HD bandwidth is available (As well as the willingness to allocate some of that bandwidth to The Blaze, of course.).


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## Stewart Vernon

There was a time when I wanted widescreen SD too... back when FOX was doing that via OTA before they finally went to HD broadcasting... but what mostly happened is that we got HD feeds finally for most channels, thereby eliminating most of the need for widescreen SD.

The handful of channels left in SD that aren't ever going to go HD will probably go away at some point if their viewership gets low enough... everyone else is just "in the queue" for whenever we get more bandwidth for HD.


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## altidude

Tiki God said:


> I would assume Dish was hurt by the whole Fox deal as I got an offer to come back that offered a $700 cash card and a $35 monthly rebate for the first year.


I got TWO pay-per-view vouchers for staying. Score!!!


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## mwdxer

I got two also, but I very rarely ever watch PPV.


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## tigerwillow1

One thing the outage showed us is that we can live without Fox News. I've since switched over to the Welcome Pack (no Fox News) to save $40 per month. We know that Fox said Dish was greedy and Dish said Fox was greedy. Whatever the truth, Fox News has one less subscriber as a result. I was outraged at the Fox claim of censorship by Dish. Am I now guilty of censorship myself because others in my house can't watch Fox News?


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## mwdxer

Unfortunately FOX and CNN are in the small packs, but MSNBC isn't. I think a subscriber has to get at least AT120 to get MSNBC. I am not a fan of Fox News either. I get it, but never watch it, like probably 80% of the channels. We all have our fav's out there.


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## Stewart Vernon

That's the downside of channels going dark... it's kind of like when the NHL had that year-long strike and the casual fans took a long time to come back when the NHL did. Die-hard fans missed the NHL and couldn't wait... but the rest of us learned hockey wasn't that important to us and were able to ignore it. Die-hard fans of FOX were waiting, but they lost a lot of potential fans who got used to watching other news in the meantime.

That's why they don't like their channels going dark for long even if they push Dish into the corner that makes it happen. This applies to all the channels and negotiations, not just FOX.


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## Jhon69

tigerwillow1 said:


> One thing the outage showed us is that we can live without Fox News. I've since switched over to the Welcome Pack (no Fox News) to save $40 per month. We know that Fox said Dish was greedy and Dish said Fox was greedy. Whatever the truth, Fox News has one less subscriber as a result. I was outraged at the Fox claim of censorship by Dish. Am I now guilty of censorship myself because others in my house can't watch Fox News?


You are not alone,I was an continuous Fox News viewer,I even kept my PiP channel on Fox News all the times,but after Fox News had their two top anchors( O'Reilly/Kelly) accuse Dish of censorship?,during a contract dispute? That was it for me. :nono2: .


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## Jaspear

I can't speak for anyone else, but after only three weeks, I had no trouble resuming my nightly Megyn Kelly habit. Given the other options, I doubt if they've lost very many viewers.

As for the "censorship" charge, it was made in the middle of a rancorous contract fight. It didn't bother me. Looks like it didn't bother Chuck and Joe either.


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## Laxguy

Jhon69 said:


> You are not alone,I was an continuous Fox News viewer,I even kept my PiP channel on Fox News all the times,but after Fox News had their two top anchors( O'Reilly/Kelly) accuse Dish of censorship?,during a contract dispute? That was it for me. :nono2: .


Kinda on the level of The Weather Channel braying that there'd be deaths without it on DIRECTV®, and to write your Congressfolk.


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## Tiki God

altidude said:


> I got TWO pay-per-view vouchers for staying. Score!!!


LOL, funny after all of those great offers to get me to stay with Dish, I get a letter in the mail from them telling me my package price is going up $5 a month.


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