# Adding a Hard Drive to the HR20?



## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

I saw on the launch thread that somebody said they added an external hard drive to their HR20. I was wondering if anybody else has done that and what type of success they had. Also, how many hours of programming does it add (i.e., how many hours per gigabyte are we looking at here?).


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

Here is everything you need.

http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=66201&highlight=esata


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Understand that you don't ADD a HD to your HR20...you replace the one you have. The HR-20 is only capable of working with one drive unit at the present time. When you plug a new drive in to the ESATA port it will become the main drive and the internal drive will be ignored.

So, when thinking of drive capacities subtract about 320GB from the drive you're going to be adding to get the additional space you will be adding to the system.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Yea, check out the 53 page thread that BMoreRavens linked to, been ongoing for 8 months now I think.

Basically you buy an external eSata drive with an enclosure, unplug the HR20, plug in the drive, plug the HR20 back in and it does the rest. Pretty easy. I'll be getting a 1 TB one myself for Christmas.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> When you plug a new drive in to the ESATA port it will become the main drive and the internal drive will be ignored.
> 
> So, when thinking of drive capacities subtract about *320GB* from the drive you're going to be adding to get the additional space you will be adding to the system.


IIRC, Earl posted subtract 100 GB from the new drive size, not 320 GB [as that is the size of the internal drive].


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I think what Ken was getting at is you don't add up the new drive with the internal as they aren't used together. 

Basically, if you buy a 750 GB eSata then you'll have about 650 GB of recording space.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I think what Ken was getting at is you don't add up the new drive with the internal as they aren't used together.
> 
> Basically, if you buy a 750 GB eSata then you'll have about 650 GB of recording space.


Then this should be worded better: "So, when thinking of drive capacities subtract about 320GB from the drive you're *going to be adding* to get the additional space".


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Gee, I'm sorry.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Gee, I'm sorry.


Good info is better than bad info. 
That's all.

If I bought a 1 TB eSATA and then subtracted 320 GB. I would think I only had about 700 GB instead of 900 GB.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Well, that's all you would have in ADDITIONAL space as I wrote earlier.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Well, that's all you would have in ADDITIONAL space as I wrote earlier.


I guess we get to pee back and forth a bit more, since you never posted that in this thread.
You did mention the external drive replaces the internal drive, but misstated that it would use 320 GB less than the total space of the eSATA.

Is it so hard for you to admit you made a mistake?


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## Cyrus (Oct 22, 2006)

The capacity of the internal drive is not really lost. It's requires a bit of hassle as you need to reboot the hr20 and power off the external drive.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

veryoldschool said:


> IIRC, Earl posted subtract 100 GB from the new drive size, not 320 GB [as that is the size of the internal drive].


Actually our last discussion about hidden space have other Earl's number - 50 GB !


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Actually our last discussion about hidden space have other Earl's number - 50 GB !


Yes, but wasn't that for the smaller drives, like the 320 GB internal?
So depending on the size of the eSATA drive it would only be 50-100 GB of "reserved space" lost.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

That's something new for me !


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> That's something new for me !


Hey I may be wrong, but that's what I've read. FWIW


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Cyrus said:


> The capacity of the internal drive is not really lost. It's requires a bit of hassle as you need to reboot the hr20 and power off the external drive.


Cyrus, you're right...you could kind of toggle back and forth between the two...although I wonder how many times you get to do that before the HR-20 ends up formatting one or the other. I'd make real sure to completely unplug the box before doing this and then powering down/up the external drive depending on whether it's being added/subtracted.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I guess we get to pee back and forth a bit more, since you never posted that in this thread.
> You did mention the external drive replaces the internal drive, but misstated that it would use 320 GB less than the total space of the eSATA.
> 
> Is it so hard for you to admit you made a mistake?


VOS,

You seem to be harping on something...read this from my initial post again...l

*So, when thinking of drive capacities subtract about 320GB from the drive you're going to be adding to get the additional space you will be adding to the system.*

---------
the key words being "to get the ADDITIONAL space you will be adding to the system."

Sheesh...who made the mistake?


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

VOS is completely right that your wording is extremely misleading.

Its much easier to understand if you just say, by adding an eSATA drive, it disables the internal drive, and you get the size of your eSATA minus about 100GB.


Why is it so hard for you to just be nice?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> VOS is completely right that your wording is extremely misleading.
> 
> Its much easier to understand if you just say, by adding an eSATA drive, it disables the internal drive, and you get the size of your eSATA minus about 100GB.
> 
> Why is it so hard for you to just be nice?


I was nice...I took the time to give the OP some information about his question.

Someone then decided they had to correct me, state I gave bad info and then scold me three times in the same thread which was pretty unnecessary...but par for the course around here.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I was nice...I took the time to give the OP some information about his question.
> 
> Someone then decided they had to correct me, state I gave bad info and then scold me three times in the same thread which was pretty unnecessary...but par for the course around here.


Post #5 was polite, & clarified a an error.
After that: you could have acknowledged it or left it alone, but you chose the direction to send the thread, with "Gee, I'm sorry."
Don't try to pass it off as the forum with the attitude.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Post #5 was polite, & clarified a an error.
> After that: you could have acknowledged it or left it alone, but you chose the direction to send the thread, with "Gee, I'm sorry."
> Don't try to pass it off as the forum with the attitude.


VOS,

You misinterpreted my post and were corrected by another reader. You then couldn't leave it alone and had to continue posting on the subject and then in post 9 called it "bad info" which was wrong and you know it.

If you look at the title of the this thread you'll see why I answered the way I did. You may disagree, but calling what I gave bad info was incorrect and seemed spiteful

I'm done in this thread.


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## premio (Sep 26, 2006)

move to close?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

move to stop: :bang


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

Shoot! I just wanted to find out about additional drive space, not revive the Hatfields and McCoys!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

purtman said:


> Shoot! I just wanted to find out about additional drive space, not revive the Hatfields and McCoys!


My sorry if it turned into what looks like that.
I wanted to help and clarify what you would see or get by adding an eSATA drive.
Most forum members come here to help out. If we post something incorrect, another will correct it for the benefit of all. That's how we all learn more.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

If anyone is still interested in the original post...

Why not just buy the Seagate Freeagent 750 for $229 at Fry's through Tuesday? All you need is the eSATA cable. Many have reported great results.

The FreeAgent 750 will add "gobs" more capacity.

- Craig

Edit: The 750 is currently only in Fry's stores, not online.


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## Pluvious (Jun 12, 2007)

After recording all 24 hours of LIVE concert.. my stock drive is now full.  Guess I have an 'excuse' to buy the 750GB model now. ;-) Nice price at Frys for $230... 

The only issue I see is the hassle of unplugging the external when I want to see my stuff on the stock drive.


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## ChrisPC (Jun 17, 2003)

I found a Seagate 500GB eSATA drive cheap, so I decided to try this. It works really well; faster than the internal drive, and I have about twice the space now.

It's now on sale at CompUSA for $119, with the eSATA cable and PCI card included! That's $20 less than I paid last week; I'll have to go back and get the difference.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

BTW, if you told about HDD, then it is *SATA *disk, if you bought disk enclosure then it come with *eSATA *connector.
Feel the difference ?


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is the link to the newspaper ad for the FreeAgent 750 at Fry's:

Seagate 750GB FreeAgent Pro Data Mover eSATA/USB 2.0 External Hard Drive

- Craig


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## Pluvious (Jun 12, 2007)

Do I need to hook up the FreeAgent to my PC first? Do I need to erase everything off the FreeAgent before I hook it up to the DVR?


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

Pluvious said:


> Do I need to hook up the FreeAgent to my PC first? Do I need to erase everything off the FreeAgent before I hook it up to the DVR?


All you have to do is unplug the HR20. Then plug the eSATA cable into the hard drive and then into the HR20. Plug the power to the hard drive in and wait for it to start all the way up. Then plug in the HR20 back in and the HR20 will do everything else for you.


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## Pluvious (Jun 12, 2007)

Thx.. again dude.. sorry about posting the same question in two threads.


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> My sorry if it turned into what looks like that.
> I wanted to help and clarify what you would see or get by adding an eSATA drive.
> Most forum members come here to help out. If we post something incorrect, another will correct it for the benefit of all. That's how we all learn more.


My comment was more tongue-in-cheek. I should have added a smiley here. I agree. Most forum members are pretty good about helping out. I know I've received some very negative personal attacks on the sports section of this site and on one of the NASCAR drivers dropping an F-bomb, but overall, it's been pretty good. I think most people are pretty helpful.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

purtman said:


> My comment was more tongue-in-cheek. I should have added a smiley here. I agree. Most forum members are pretty good about helping out. I know I've received some very negative personal attacks on the sports section of this site and on one of the NASCAR drivers dropping an F-bomb, but overall, it's been pretty good. I think most people are pretty helpful.


As with many postings, I got a laugh out of yours.
On the other hand, I never meant for it out of hand.
I may have a very old character "flaw" where when I'm told something that is wrong, I respond. When told it again, I respond stronger.
Right is right & wrong needs to be corrected.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Ken, it's no big deal. I was confused on your original post as well until I thought about it for a minute. I don't think most people think of it that way, thus the confusion.

No big deal.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Thanks to several members, I now understand post #3. KenS was/is correct.
What I didn't understand about it was so simple a child would understand, if it were cookies.
If you have one cookie and then trade it for five cookies, you have four more cookies than you first did.
Change cookies for gigabytes and that was what KenS was saying.
I foolishly missed the idea that anybody might not understand a new drive, [say] 750 GB would be 430 GB more than a 320 GB drive.
This was the point of KenS post.
I miss read it and looked into the technical issues of: the 320 GB uses 50 GB reserved = 270 GB free for recording.
Changing to an external 750 GB could increase the reserve space to 100 GB. This would leave 650 GB free for recordings.
So with KenS's "thought" 650 GB- 270 GB = 360 GB more recording space than you started with.
Or a simpler way is subtract 100 GB from your new drive and that is the total space you have. Which was "where I was going".


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

VOS,

Yet again you distinguished yourself. Typically you distinguish youself for almost always knowing the right answer.

Today you distinguished yourself even more than normal.

Thank you for all you do.

- Craig


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

This is the first I heard that the internal drive uses only 50GB of reserve space. I thought it was 100GB.

I am going to replace the internal HDD with a 500GB HDD. Will it still reserve 50GB or will it reserve 100GB. Or is it always the same fraction 50/320? 

-mk


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

mikek said:


> This is the first I heard that the internal drive uses only 50GB of reserve space. I thought it was 100GB.
> 
> I am going to replace the internal HDD with a 500GB HDD. Will it still reserve 50GB or will it reserve 100GB. Or is it always the same fraction 50/320?
> 
> -mk


That we don't know. 
That is: where the break is between the 50 GB of the 320 GB internal, and the 100 GB of a large external.
If you do get a 500 GB and set it up, you could then connect it to a PC [eSATA to USB adapter] and then post your partition sizes.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Thanks to several members, I now understand post #3. KenS was/is correct.
> What I didn't understand about it was so simple a child would understand, if it were cookies.
> If you have one cookie and then trade it for five cookies, you have four more cookies than you first did.
> Change cookies for gigabytes and that was what KenS was saying.
> ...


No reason to eat crow...sometimes it's hard to communicate ideas on a forum. If we were in a meeting room I'd have drawn a diagram...and then when you didn't understand I'd throw the dry erase marker at you. We'd figure it out and go have a beer.

Perhaps instead of DLB we should campaign for DS (Drive Striping).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> No reason to eat crow...sometimes it's hard to communicate ideas on a forum. If we were in a meeting room I'd have drawn a diagram...and then when you didn't understand I'd throw the dry erase marker at you. We'd figure it out and go have a beer.
> 
> Perhaps instead of DLB we should campaign for DS (Drive Striping).


So you do that too [the eraser throwing]? I've learned to duck quickly in many a meeting. :lol: :icon_peac :goodjob:


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> That we don't know.
> That is: where the break is between the 50 GB of the 320 GB internal, and the 100 GB of a large external.
> If you do get a 500 GB and set it up, you could then connect it to a PC [eSATA to USB adapter] and then post your partition sizes.


I'm going to replace the internal HDD with another internal HDD. Does that make a difference?

-mk


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mikek said:


> I'm going to replace the internal HDD with another internal HDD. Does that make a difference?
> 
> -mk


My question would be...why?

First, it's a leased box so you violate the lease when you do that.

Seconds, it's so much easier to just plug in an eSata and be done with it.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> My question would be...why?
> 
> First, it's a leased box so you violate the lease when you do that.
> 
> Seconds, it's so much easier to just plug in an eSata and be done with it.


It would be one less thing plugged in and taking up space.

Gonna take the 320GB HDD and replace a 160GB HDD in another DVR.

Then I'm gonna take that 160GB HDD and put it in my computer.

And I'm gonna take the 100GB HDD in my computer and put it in a drawer for safe keeping.

-mk


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

It may not be that easy. 
The 320 GB drive is made for a DVR & not a PC. Someone did connect one to their PC and found it wouldn't boot about 8 out of 10 times.

Also if you have problems with your HR-20 [they've been know to happen], you will need to go back through everything before you return it and hope they don't see the broken seal.

Just a "heads up".


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Not too big of a deal to open that stuff up.

I am gonna put that 320GB HDD in another DVR. 

We'll see what happens. If worse comes to worse I'll just get a bigger eSATA drive and use that.

-mk


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

ITs not hard to open it up, but unless you actually bought your HR20, its leased and legally you cant open it up according to the lease agreement. You may be understanding that fact, but since it was mentioned in this thread you havent seemd to acknowledge that fact so I wanted to make sure you completely understand the possible consequences of actually breaking the seal on the box. In this case, its no different than a rented cable box, you are not supposed to open them, it violates the agreement between you and the provider.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

veryoldschool said:


> It may not be that easy.
> The 320 GB drive is made for a DVR & not a PC. Someone did connect one to their PC and found it wouldn't boot about 8 out of 10 times.
> 
> <skip>


New surprise for me. VOS where is the post with the fiasco?

This disk, actually I recall more then one model has been noticed, is a normal SATA disk without any specialty. Working perfectly in PC. No problem at all.

Regarding boot problem - I could tell you more then one reason non related to a disk itself. So, there is raised question about that particular problem. Why need to expand it to all disks ? 

Same question to the pile - where is the source of 100 GB reserved for bigger disks ? 
Earl only mentioned 50 GB.
And why it increased 2 times ? So, what the reserve for that jumbo 3.75 TB storage of our member here ?

I would say the info pure unverified RUMORS ! :nono:

For sure I saw 2 reserved parts (perhaps DLB), and someone mentioned it hold 90 min circular buffers.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> ITs not hard to open it up, but unless you actually bought your HR20, its leased and legally you cant open it up according to the lease agreement. You may be understanding that fact, but since it was mentioned in this thread you havent seemd to acknowledge that fact so I wanted to make sure you completely understand the possible consequences of actually breaking the seal on the box. In this case, its no different than a rented cable box, you are not supposed to open them, it violates the agreement between you and the provider.


please don't call the directv police on me

I guess the worse they can do is send me to Guantanamo. It's supposed to be nice this time of year.

Seriously though, thanks for the info. I doubt directv cares so long as I am paying my monthly bill.

-mk


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> #1 VOS where is the post with the fiasco?
> 
> This disk, actually I recall more then one model has been noticed, is a normal SATA disk without any specialty. Working perfectly in PC. No problem at all.
> 
> ...


#1 was here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=76522&highlight=seagate 
#2 Earl's posting here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=66201
#3 would be the "same" 100 GB reserved.

I NEVER try to pass on RUMORS. 
What I do read and understand as credible, I remember for future reference. 
Over time things change as more knowledge comes to light.

I hope these will help you to understand.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mikek said:


> I doubt directv cares so long as I am paying my monthly bill.
> 
> -mk


Your problem may come if you have to send it back because it died. They notice you opened it up then you'll get hit with a charge equal to $750 - what you paid for it (thus charging you full price for it).

Just being sure you are fully informed.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Thanks for the links, VOS.

a) that only one person who have the problem cannot be reliable source to global conclusion: 1) only him have the problem; 2) he didn't know what disk model he use (asked in post#8); 3) he didn't bother to follow his own thread and answer questions.
b) Earl posted 50 GB reserve for 320 GB, but late edited post about external disk and put 100 GB number for any size of external storage - I don't see technical reason to increase the number once while jumping from 50 for 320 to 100 for bigger sizes. Anyway D* so far doesn't have any official info about eSATA support and those details. So, sorry, but it fall into clear category of rumors. 
Sorry Earl, but the numbers posted by you can't be verified.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Thanks for the links, VOS.
> 
> a) that only one person who have the problem cannot be reliable source to global conclusion: 1) only him have the problem; 2) he didn't know what disk model he use (asked in post#8); 3) he didn't bother to follow his own thread and answer questions.
> b) Earl posted 50 GB reserve for 320 GB, but late edited post about external disk and put 100 GB number for any size of external storage - I don't see technical reason to increase the number once while jumping from 50 for 320 to 100 for bigger sizes. Anyway D* so far doesn't have any official info about eSATA support and those details. So, sorry, but it fall into clear category of rumors.
> Sorry Earl, but the numbers posted by you can't be verified.


All of these were from sometime ago. I don't remember where but do remember going to the Seagate website with a model number & reading about the drive. It was intended for AV [DVR] use. I have no idea what would make one drive designed for this or that, other than cheap [for a PC] verses more expensive [for a server].
I agree this was a sample of one & at the time there was only one. If there is but one experience to the contrary then it is open for debate.
I'll leave Earl's postings for others to decide.

So what info can you bring into the light? The more we understand, the more we know.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

I guess I can check it out when I get my HDD.

I'll hook it up internally and check the partitions. Then I'll hook it up externally and check the partitions.

Maybe it is 50GB reserved for internal and 100GB for external. Or maybe it'll be the same for a 500GB HDD either way.

I'll check it out unless someone has already done that experiment.

-mk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

mk, 
if you will read my discussion with Earl about the size, you'll have more info in your hand.

VOS, 
back to that poster - he complain his disk was CE grade ( consumer type ) but this statement sounds silly, since all our DVRs and PC are consumer grade; also Seagate and other HDD manufacturers does not pose any restrictions for the D35 series regarding install it into PC. And also many PC is DVR now ! The disk model selling widely.
I don't see any reason to expand his experience to all DVR disks. In contrary, my personal tests shows opposite.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Well, that's all you would have in ADDITIONAL space as I wrote earlier.


Good Heavens! Can you be any more confused or confusing? Look at it this way. If you fill up the original 300 Gig HD and then plug in an ESATA you will still retain the dormant HD's recordings. Add that 200 Gigs to the ESATA's rated capacity less 100 Gigs and you will find that you have, using a 750 Gig ESATA as an example, a grand total of 850 Gigs of storage available to you. Use a TB ESATA and you will end up with 1.1 TB.

I believe this is correct, Tom, Earl and VOS?

I just shut down one of my Cavalry ESATAs and replaced it with the Seagate 750 ESATA. Lot quieter, so far, and no vibration and $100 cheaper than the Cavalry, which I will return tomorrow. This Cavalry is one of the new ones and lasted almost 4 months. Started "chirping" a couple weeks ago. The fans on the Cavalrys are noisy and the Seagate has no fan. Much quieter.

Will it work better? Only time will tell, but I talked to a Seagate tech who told me he had been using his ESATA for months and didn't even notice it anymore. Had to wait an hour and a half to reach that tech, but he was well informed and we chatted for quite a while and answered each other's questions to both his and my satisfaction.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> All of these were from sometime ago. I don't remember where but do remember going to the Seagate website with a model number & reading about the drive. It was intended for AV [DVR] use. I have no idea what would make one drive designed for this or that, other than cheap [for a PC] verses more expensive [for a server].
> I agree this was a sample of one & at the time there was only one. If there is but one experience to the contrary then it is open for debate.
> I'll leave Earl's postings for others to decide.
> 
> So what info can you bring into the light? The more we understand, the more we know.


I asked a Seagate tech if a PC or a DVR would put more pressure on a hard drive and he said the PC would. Talked to him for a long time and he was well spoken and seemed to have all pertinent info at his fingertips. Most importantly, I believed him.

The opinion stated above concerning PC vs DVR is the Seagate tech's, not mine. I don't know enough to compare the two usages. He was convincing.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I tend to be a meat & potatoes guy [like Fred], but every so often need to bite into a fowl.
I think you're correct about the storage if you plug & unplug the eSATA drive & reboot.

What might shed some more light on the topic would be if you took your Seagate eSATA, connected it to your PC, and then ran the SeaTools from Seagate to look at the partitions on the drive. SeaTools is a utility from Seagate that [mine] is burned on a CD-RW and I boot my PC off the CD. Then it looks at the drives. I spend a few hours having it check out my drives, a few days ago.
You should be able to get the info quickly and not need to spend the time to check out all of the drive [good if you have problems, but yours is new & you don't].

If you could post the partition(s) size(s) it might be useful.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Designed for AV use is just a fancy way of saying they tried to make them quieter(acoustic signature), and also tried to cut down on heat. Other than that, the drives in these DVRs can be used in any device that has the appropriate hookups for sata drives...


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Good Heavens! Can you be any more confused or confusing?


I can be as confusing as you are insulting.

The topic is Adding a Hard Drive. In the PC World or with Tivos when you ADD a HD you gain the benefit of the new drive's capacity and keep the original drive's capacity.

With the HR-20 you don't really ADD a HD you effectively REPLACE the HD.

Yes, you can unplug the external drive, reset the HR-20, pull the plug on the HR-20 before it re-boots, power down and remove the external drive and power on the unit to get back to the original drive's content (which I guess could mean a dated copy of the latest system if you happen to do a reinstall?).

I'd be willing to bet that wouldn't be something anyone would want to do on a regular basis...and probably isn't that great an idea when you consider the health of the two drives and the port involved.

I didn't discuss the system overhead in my post because it's the same on any active drive from what we know. VOS misread my post and we were kind of arguing different things. I'm sure part of the blame for his missing my initial point was that I didn't fully and completely explain myself.

My posts like all of the others on here are probably worth about what you're paying for them. But...at least I don't single out people for personal attacks.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I asked a Seagate tech if a PC or a DVR would put more pressure on a hard drive and he said the PC would. Talked to him for a long time and he was well spoken and seemed to have all pertinent info at his fingertips. Most importantly, I believed him.
> 
> The opinion stated above concerning PC vs DVR is the Seagate tech's, not mine. I don't know enough to compare the two usages. He was convincing.


Of course it depends on the PC's usage...but I'd agree with him. PCs are generally doing a lot of different things requiring multiple seeks, writes and reads with thousands and thousands of small files.

The good part of the way a DVR deals with a HD is that they should be able to really optimize their software to take advantage of the close to singular type of file access that they do (wow..that was an ugly sentence).


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

P Smith said:


> mk,
> if you will read my discussion with Earl about the size, you'll have more info in your hand.


ok. i missed that. could you give me a link?
-mk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Well, I don't have the URL; would be easy to use Search


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Well, I don't have the URL; would be easy to use Search


could you search for me and then post the link?

Just kidding. I'll check it out. Thanks.

-mk


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I tend to be a meat & potatoes guy [like Fred], but every so often need to bite into a fowl.
> I think you're correct about the storage if you plug & unplug the eSATA drive & reboot.
> 
> What might shed some more light on the topic would be if you took your Seagate eSATA, connected it to your PC, and then ran the SeaTools from Seagate to look at the partitions on the drive. SeaTools is a utility from Seagate that [mine] is burned on a CD-RW and I boot my PC off the CD. Then it looks at the drives. I spend a few hours having it check out my drives, a few days ago.
> ...


Too much technical work for me to even think of doing. Wouldn't even know where to begin. You have a much better understanding of computers and networking than I do.

Remember. my mission in life has always been to do as little work as possible. Fred came into my life so that I would never have to shovel snow again. My landscaper, Tom, came into my life so that I would never have to cut my grass or lug truckloads of mulch. My two delectable housekeepers, Felicia and Sherri, clean my house so I don't have to and my wife works so I don't have to.

Hitting baseballs takes up my mornings and part of my afternoon, I spend way too much time on this forum, and the rest of my day is spent reading and watching TV. I really have little time to spare. Perhaps someone out there can check the size of the partitions.

The Seagate ESATA is working just like the tech said it would. Silent. No vibrations. I have read on some of the threads that the Seagate has an anodized aluminum case. Not true. Plastic, specially made to pass the heat from the HD into the atmosphere. Tech told me to expect 37-39 degrees C. Measured that this morning (I'm not completely lazy, and I do love to use meters), and he is right on the button. Now if it just lasts for a couple of years.

Fred says "Hi". He really gets a kick out of the posts where your patience runs thin or, better yet, out.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Ken S said:


> I can be as confusing as you are insulting.
> 
> The topic is Adding a Hard Drive. In the PC World or with Tivos when you ADD a HD you gain the benefit of the new drive's capacity and keep the original drive's capacity.
> 
> ...


Actually, I recorded 24 and Lost on the "dormant" drives of two of my HR20s. I have to watch these shows all at once and quickly or I get "Lost" too and have no idea what is going on.

All you have to do is pull out one of the ESATA plugs and reboot the HR20. I went thru this minor ordeal because I did not trust the Cavalry ESATAs. The first 4 or 5 I bought failed in less than a month and the last two were upgraded models. One of them began chirping a couple of weeks ago and I just took it back today and used the money that was returned to me to purchase another Seagate ESATA and saved a hundred and fifteen dollars ($115).

Sorry if I offended you, should have put a "smiley face" after the first sentence. That was not a personal attack. Did make you take notice though. The post I am replying to is very easy to read.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Of course it depends on the PC's usage...but I'd agree with him. PCs are generally doing a lot of different things requiring multiple seeks, writes and reads with thousands and thousands of small files.
> 
> The good part of the way a DVR deals with a HD is that they should be able to really optimize their software to take advantage of the close to singular type of file access that they do (wow..that was an ugly sentence).


I explained to the Seagate tech my reasoning concerning the DVR vs PC usage:

I know an accountant who built the accounting system for the accounting department in a large factory/R&D facility/office complex with outlying sites. This was back in the late 80's, early 90's. She started off with a high level Mac and quickly had that one upgraded as far as it would go and had to acquire a larger and faster Mac and then upgraded that, and so on, until she quit in the middle 90's. In all that time, she never had a Mac that could keep up with her spreadsheets. Wasn't her computer knowledge, it was the interconnected spreadsheets in Excel that slowed everything down. So many intertwined spreadsheets that were constantly changing each other's values. I just figured a DVR couldn't be that demanding.

I have read several posts that stated that a DVR put more stress on a hard drive than a PC and I have to disagree. Because of that one simple thing: multiple interconnected spreadsheets with values constantly changing has to be harder for a hard drive to deal with.

Before someone asks, she did try IBM, Micro-Soft DOS and Windows computers and they crashed repeatedly. The Macs never crashed.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I explained to the Seagate tech my reasoning concerning the DVR vs PC usage:
> 
> I know an accountant who built the accounting system for the accounting department in a large factory/R&D facility/office complex with outlying sites. This was back in the late 80's, early 90's. She started off with a high level Mac and quickly had that one upgraded as far as it would go and had to acquire a larger and faster Mac and then upgraded that, and so on, until she quit in the middle 90's. In all that time, she never had a Mac that could keep up with her spreadsheets. Wasn't her computer knowledge, it was the interconnected spreadsheets in Excel that slowed everything down. So many intertwined spreadsheets that were constantly changing each other's values. I just figured a DVR couldn't be that demanding.
> 
> ...


And then there was always "Sun". :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> And then there was always "Sun". :lol:


Ahhh. You got me again. What is, or was, "Sun"?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> Designed for AV use is just a fancy way of saying they tried to make them quieter(acoustic signature), and also tried to cut down on heat. Other than that, the drives in these DVRs can be used in any device that has the appropriate hookups for SATA drives...


Seems like Seagate has solved the "acoustic signature" (Fred's gonna love that phrase) problem. No noise at all resting on a rug in back of my TV stand. Not very hot to the touch. Have had TiVos that felt warmer (or hotter). Now if it only lasts a couple of years...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Ahhh. You got me again. What is, or was, "Sun"?


Sun Workstations. SPARC 10, 20, etc.
Same Motorola processor as Mac. Runs Unix OS
*S*tanford *U*niversity *N*etwork. [from the hay days of SGI, SUN, 3Com all being developed in the same building at Sanford]

Used by most chip designing groups, Ford Motor Company, Space Systems Loral [to control SATs], etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Microsystems

http://www.sun.com/


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"Sun Workstations. SPARC 10, 20, etc.
Same Motorola processor as Mac. Runs Unix OS"

Not so fast - you cant mixed up SPARC after 1987 and first three Sun-1/2/3 models ran on 68K.


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## Crypter (Jun 21, 2007)

Hmmm I hooked up a 500 GB eSATA drive and I have EXACTLY 5 hours of HD content recorded so far and the recorder says I have 94% free. So my "rough" estimate is that adding a 500 GB HDD will give you about ~80 hours of recording time. 

How many hours does the deafult HR20 drive record? (That is, HD content, as advertised?)


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Crypter said:


> Hmmm I hooked up a 500 GB eSATA drive and I have EXACTLY 5 hours of HD content recorded so far and the recorder says I have 94% free. So my "rough" estimate is that adding a 500 GB HDD will give you about ~80 hours of recording time.
> 
> How many hours does the deafult HR20 drive record? (That is, HD content, as advertised?)


~30 hours MPEG2 HD
~50 hours MPEG4 HD

As advertised. +/- about 5%.


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## hfhlt004 (Nov 19, 2005)

cygnusloop said:
 

> ~30 hours MPEG2 HD
> ~50 hours MPEG4 HD
> 
> As advertised. +/- about 5%.


That is a good answer...........
but state it another way--How large is the CURRENT internal drive on the HR20-700? I forgot. If I had that information, I could judge how large I need to go on an external eSATA to approximately double my recording time.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hfhlt004 said:


> That is a good answer...........
> but state it another way--How large is the CURRENT internal drive on the HR20-700? I forgot. If I had that information, I could judge how large I need to go on an external eSATA to approximately double my recording time.


320 GB


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

hfhlt004 said:


> That is a good answer...........
> but state it another way--How large is the CURRENT internal drive on the HR20-700? I forgot. If I had that information, I could judge how large I need to go on an external eSATA to approximately double my recording time.


Go for a 750GB to be safe. Actually, with some of the pricing nowadays 1TB is fairly reasonable. The nice thing about external enclosures is you can swap drives in and out without having to replace the entire box down the road.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Sun Workstations. SPARC 10, 20, etc.
> Same Motorola processor as Mac. Runs Unix OS
> *S*tanford *U*niversity *N*etwork. [from the hay days of SGI, SUN, 3Com all being developed in the same building at Sanford]
> 
> ...


Thanx!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Crypter said:


> Hmmm I hooked up a 500 GB eSATA drive and I have EXACTLY 5 hours of HD content recorded so far and the recorder says I have 94% free. So my "rough" estimate is that adding a 500 GB HDD will give you about ~80 hours of recording time.
> 
> How many hours does the deafult HR20 drive record? (That is, HD content, as advertised?)


I don't think anyone knows for sure. I filled the default HD up and had a little over 47 hours of MPEG2. Seems to vary depending on what you record.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> That we don't know.
> That is: where the break is between the 50 GB of the 320 GB internal, and the 100 GB of a large external.
> If you do get a 500 GB and set it up, you could then connect it to a PC [eSATA to USB adapter] and then post your partition sizes.


You're going to get that patition size one way or another, aren't you?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> My question would be...why?
> 
> First, it's a leased box so you violate the lease when you do that.
> 
> Seconds, it's so much easier to just plug in an eSata and be done with it.


Scott, sometimes I think you are too logical. I understand every post of yours I have read. Clear and to the point. I have to send you an email.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> My question would be...why?
> 
> First, it's a leased box so you violate the lease when you do that.
> 
> Seconds, it's so much easier to just plug in an eSata and be done with it.


I just read the next post and...wow! You might as well not have written this post.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Once again, I have to show my ignorance. What is a "SWM8"? I have no clue.


See the CE forum..


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## beakor (May 29, 2007)

cygnusloop said:


> ~30 hours MPEG2 HD
> ~50 hours MPEG4 HD
> 
> As advertised. +/- about 5%.


Is the OTA considered mpeg4 when recording?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Once again, I have to show my ignorance. What is a "SWM8"? I have no clue.


SHHHHHHH!!!!!!


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

beakor said:


> Is the OTA considered mpeg4 when recording?


OTA is MPG2.

- Craig


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Replaced the HDD in a HR20-100 with a Seagate 500GB.

The model number of the HDD in the HR20-100 is Western Digital WD3200JS

The funny thing is, is that this HDD will not power up unless it is used in the HR20.
And I don't mean boot up, I mean it won't even power up.

I tried different jumper settings and used USB connection....nothing seems to work.

I haven't checked the 500GB yet to see the partition sizes. 

Replacing the internal HDD in the HR20-100 was extremely easy. It took about 15minutes total. You will need a T10 screwdriver to open the case and remove the bracket and a T15 to take the HDD out of the bracket.

-mk


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

15 minutes to completely void your warranty. Thats a quick $700 if you ever have trouble and need a replacement.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> 15 minutes to completely void your warranty. Thats a quick $700 if you ever have trouble and need a replacement.


We already went over this. I obviously don't care about the warranty.

Thanks for the help.

-mk


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## Bly (Jul 9, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> 15 minutes to completely void your warranty. Thats a quick $700 if you ever have trouble and need a replacement.


If you put the 320 gig drive back in when you send it back for warranty, How are they ever going to know? Do you actually know anyone that has had a warranty voided? I seriously doubt they have any way to tell as long as you but the original drive back in and boot up once, and even if they can tell are they going to go thru the effort, it's hardly worth it when it would only piss off customers. Yes they could store some of the info in the flash, but if they do the geeks will figure it out and find a way to change it back, or destroy the flash so D* can't tell.

I opened mine up and changed to a 750... Doesn't bother me a bit and I have zero worry about getting it covered if it breaks. My Unit didn't even have a "Warranty Void If Opened" sticker on the back of it to detect if it was open. Not that I would have cared...

If they really didn't want the units opened they wouldn't have used standard T-10 torques and made it so darn easy. Why do they make it so easy? They know it's a huge selling point to the geek crowd, and they know the geeks are going to open it up and change it even if they make it difficult, so it's better to make it easy. Who ever designed the HR20 deserves mass kudos for putting the OS on flash and only using the drive for storage, so slick!

D* also realizes that one of if not the most frequent parts to die is a hard drive, make them easy to swap will help their bottom line over the long run. Also, so many websites that mention how to swap out the hard drive are based in the USA. If D* really didn't want people flipping out there drives, they would send cease and desist letters to every website stating how to do so. But the fact is they don't care if we do, it makes the product that much better for the geeks, when the geeks are happy with something other people buy it just from our recommendations. I know before I ever considered upgrading from my Direct Tivo I read on how hard it was to upgrade to the HR20. When I read how easy it was, I was pretty much sold right there.

Technically it's against TOS to open the unit yes. Technically it's illegal to drive 66 MPH in a 65. I understand why it's against the TOS to open the unit, but I don't ever see D* enforcing the rule unless it somehow hurts their bottom line. I see so many people saying "you'll void you're warranty, it's going to cost you $700 and the sky is falling". I think it's utter BS, but then again it's only my opinion! I can tell you if they ever tried to charge me for opening the unit they'd lose my service for life. Doesn't make it worth while for them, pissing off the geeks is a bad idea.

As far as storage, by my calcs I roughly tripped my space, which makes since if the original drive was 320-100 = 220 and my new is 750-100 = 650.

Just my $.02


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Bly said:


> As far as storage, by my calcs I roughly tripped my space, which makes since if the original drive was 320-100 = 220 and my new is 750-100 = 650.
> 
> Just my $.02


What drive did you use? Have you noticed any temperature or noise differences?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"and my new is *750*-100 = 650"


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Ken S said:


> What drive did you use? Have you noticed any temperature or noise differences?


I used a Seagate ST3500830SCE this one is supposed a DVR HDD. They also have a 750GB model.

It is extremely quiet, but I think the original was quiet also.

Don't remember what my original temps were, but now I'm running 102F.

-mk


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Bly said:


> Just my $.02


I obviously agree with you. I'm not sure why people are so over zealous about warning (harping on) voiding the warranty. Everybody on this forum should be aware of it.

I doubt D* would care if you left the new HDD in there. Their main concern always seems to be keeping customers.

Anyway like you said, it is so simple (not as simple as plugging in an eSATA), but I didn't really want an eSATA hanging around my AV setup.

I know most people disagree with me, but I like tinkering with stuff and I was gonna open it up anyway just to check it out. It does look like a pretty well designed system.

Hats off to RCA.

-mk


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## Jimmmmbo! (May 30, 2007)

P Smith said:


> "and my new is *750*-100 = 650"


???


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## Jimmmmbo! (May 30, 2007)

mikek said:


> I doubt D* would care if you left the old HDD in there. Their main concern always seems to be keeping customers.


I think this topic warrants its own poll thread: "Have you ever been busted by DirecTV for opening up your HR20?"


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Jimmmmbo! said:


> I think this topic warrants its own poll thread: "Have you ever been busted by DirecTV for opening up your HR20?"


That would be a long thread.

One guy says NO and then about 1000 people with a "+1"

-mk


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## Jimmmmbo! (May 30, 2007)

mikek said:


> One guy says NO and then about 1000 people with a "+1"
> -mk


And my point would be made!


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## Bly (Jul 9, 2007)

Ken S said:


> What drive did you use? Have you noticed any temperature or noise differences?


I had a ST3750640AS sitting around, so I used that. That's a Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 (Perpendicular Recording) ST3750640AS 750GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache drive.

The new drive might be a tad more on the noise, but with the case on I don't notice it. Temp is +/- 2 degrees old drive vs new, I'm not worried.

For people who didn't follow my last statement, I wasn't very clear.

Orginal Drive was 320 gigs - 100 gigs reserved by the HR20 = 220 gigs usable space
New 750 gig drive 750 gigs - 100 gigs reserved by the HR20 = 650 gigs usable space.

My Storage space tripled when I added the new drive, to test this I record 10 hours of HD programming, the exact same 10 hours or programming. IE I recorded Devil wears Prada from HBO on both drives, Full Metal Jacket from HDnet movies on both drives, etc etc etc. When I deleted the 10 hours off my old drives I went from 50% to 80%, so those 10 hours were using 30 percent of my space, give or take. When I deleted the same 10 hours off my new drive, my open drive space went up 10% when looking under "List"

This leads me to believe the 100 gigs the HR reserves is accurate, going from a 320 to a 750 would be 2.95 times larger usable space.

I wish I would have had one of the new 1TB. 220gigs usable vs 900gigs usable. 4.1 times the storage space would be nice, but the 750 is enough.

As far as the warranty, that would be a long thread of +1s... lol


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Regarding just popping a new HD into your HR 20 case. I tried it with mine...and failed!

Now I'm no idiot on these things, I've done Tivo drives for years. But when it came ot the HR 20 I couldn't get the old drive out. BOTH of the screws that held the HD bracket to the chassis turned freely and I couldn't get to the heads of the screws without pulling off the front panel.

Not being that brave, I closed it back up. Anyone know where I screwed up?


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

mnassour said:


> BOTH of the screws that held the HD bracket to the chassis turned freely and I couldn't get to the heads of the screws without pulling off the front panel.
> Anyone know where I screwed up?


Screwed up? No pun intended, right?

I think the HR20-700 is different from the HR20-100 in that regard. I think I read something about reusable rivets.

I'm not sure because I don't have a 700 model.

Could you take a picture of the screws that won't come out?

-mk


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## Bly (Jul 9, 2007)

mnassour said:


> Regarding just popping a new HD into your HR 20 case. I tried it with mine...and failed!
> 
> Now I'm no idiot on these things, I've done Tivo drives for years. But when it came ot the HR 20 I couldn't get the old drive out. BOTH of the screws that held the HD bracket to the chassis turned freely and I couldn't get to the heads of the screws without pulling off the front panel.
> 
> Not being that brave, I closed it back up. Anyone know where I screwed up?


Are the screws holding the drive to the case perhaps stripped? Try unscrewing them while putting pulling up on the drive to see if they will start to thread and come out.


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