# blackberry vs android...



## Nabisco

Well I have been thinking about getting the android htc, I have alwaysed wanted to use my blackberry(tether) as a modem but sprint wont let me. also just to get up to 4g is a plus, i love alot about my bb, it takes the abuse im not sure if the touch screens are willing to take a tumble from time to time. then there is the fact that i have a 8350I and my girlfriend had a 8330 and in the same house i would have full service and she was lucky to get any. some of the guys i work with says sprint side blows but the rep said that depends on the phone?? i really wanted one of those windows phones but im have been very happy with nextel and really dont want to leave them, but if i get an android then it has to be a sprint phone and im not to sure about the coverage the say they have good coverage but my girlfriends bb barely worked, i would hate to leave sprint i like there pricing plans and all but im not to sure, when is the new super bad ass blackberry coming out, or should i go android???


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## RasputinAXP

You have decent T-Mobile coverage? You sir, want a Motorola Defy:

http://www.gottabemobile.com/2011/02/11/t-mobile-motorola-defy-rugged-android-smartphone-review/


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## BattleZone

Blackberry is a dying brand. Sure, they're still selling a lot of phones (mostly upgrades to existing BBs for folks used to them), but their marketshare is eroding quickly.

Win Phone 7 is actually a quite good OS, but Microsoft was about 2 years too late in releasing it, and it's going to fade quickly.

iOS is obviously big, but Android is clearly on pace to be the dominant phone/tablet OS, based on growth rates. Obviously it will be a year or two before Android is beating the iPad, just as it was with the iPhone, but it will happen.

The other phone systems just aren't able to keep up. RIM is mostly holding on because of corporate phone use and their catering to that market (security/encryption), but once iOS and Android implement their planned solutions, RIM is going to really fade quickly.

The bottom line is that it's all about App support, because while all of these devices can access web pages, a dedicated App is MUCH easier to use, especially on a small touch-screen. And neither RIM nor WP7 is even close to the level of App support that you get with Android or iOS.


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## hdtvfan0001

BattleZone said:


> Blackberry is a dying brand.


:lol::lol::lol:

That simply can't be a serious statement.

Right now, Research In Motion's BlackBerry has around 35% of the market, the iPhone has about 28%, Google's Android about 9%.

Feel free to Google plenty on this topic...here's just one example.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2010/07/09/android-vs-blackberry-vs-iphone.aspx


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## BattleZone

You might want to actually read the articles you use to support your position. First, what you posted was 9 months old, and second, it already talks about the trouble RIM is in.

How about something from this week?

Android Passes RIM, Lengthens Lead on iOS: ComScore

or

RIM Slips: CMO Departing










And a prediction based on current trends:


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## hdtvfan0001

BattleZone said:


> You might want to actually read the articles you use to support your position.


You might want to read them *Battle*Zone...most folks prefer 9 month old *facts* over *projections* 3 years into the future based on *0 facts*.

There are plenty of projections out there that totally contradict the one you referenced.


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## dpeters11

BattleZone said:


> Blackberry is a dying brand. Sure, they're still selling a lot of phones (mostly upgrades to existing BBs for folks used to them), but their marketshare is eroding quickly.
> 
> Win Phone 7 is actually a quite good OS, but Microsoft was about 2 years too late in releasing it, and it's going to fade quickly.


I'm still a Blackberry fan, though it is on the corporate level. I don't have anything like BES for Android or iOS. I certainly have lost some Blackberry users, but I've also had two come back from Android.

Windows Phone's big issue is the updates, or lack of them. The one coming needed to be in place already, and without the issues. Even Paul Thurrott is getting aggravated.


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## Getteau

I'll say up-front, I'm a diehard BB user. I had a BB, went to Windows Mobile and then came back to BB. I'm also very comfortable typing multi-page emails on my BB.

With that said, I was in exactly the same boat until about 3 weeks ago. I had an 8330 on Verizon from work and the thing was basically indestructible. Plus my battery lasted 2 or 3 days between charges. I started looking for a replacement and my main criterion was a full keyboard. Secondary criteria was battery life. I had a Windows mobile 5 phone at one time and hated how I could burn through the batter in a matter of hours, not days. So that gave me 3 BB choices and a couple of Droid choices. I went into Best Buy and took a look at the 3 BB's they had on VZB and was really disappointed. I already didn't like how RIM made the keys smaller on the 8330 from the track wheel BB I had previously. So when I saw they went even smaller with the 9xxx series, I had to rule out the BB's So I ended up getting my inner geek on and ordered the R2D2 themed Droid. They had a special and I was able to get it for $50 (work still picks up my voice/data plan; I just had to buy the device).

I’ve had it for about 3 weeks and am slowly getting used to it.

Things I miss about my BB
1. I was able to one hand the device a lot easier and was able to type emails and make calls almost by rote.
2. 2 or 3 day battery life was really nice (I can get about 1.5 days with R2D2, but I usually toss it on the charger each night.)
3. The ability to set different alert volumes for the phone and email. I kept the email notification on the BB at low, but had my phone set to high (I haven’t figured out how to do this on the Droid yet).
4. Automatic Spell Check before the email was sent. I thought I turned it on in Touchdown, but it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe I have to buy the retail version to get that feature.

Things I like about R2D2
1. My kids think it's cool
2. I have 10 or so games on it that I was able to download for free and it give the kids something to do if we are at the Dr's office or waiting somewhere
3. Internet browsing is a lot nicer than on the BB and the pinch and zoom feature is pretty cool
4. I like how I can hit the little microphone button when I'm sending an email/text message and I can dictate the message to the phone. The Droid then translates the dictation to email (it's actually pretty accurate as well).

Things I'm still trying to get used to
1. The Speaker and mute touch screen buttons on the display are right below the hang-up button. So my fat fingers keep hanging up my calls when I try to hit mute or speaker.
2. I am using a trial version of Touchdown for my Exchange email because it lets me get to my notes in Exchange (the default ActiveSync app on the Droid doesn’t support notes). Unfortunately, I think I liked the built in Calendar and email functions of the Droid ActiveSync app better than Touchdown, so I may move back to the built-in app and figure out something else for notes.
3. I'm slowly getting used to the swype approach to typing on the phone. The only down side to swype is that it's really bad for technical jargon (which I tend to use a lot in my emails). So I probably am 75% on the slide out keyboard and 25% with swype. I don’t even bother trying to type on the screen. My fingers are too big and the virtual keys are too small. So I end up hitting the wrong keys 80% of the time.
4. The slide out keyboard is different from the BB keyboard I've been using for 5 years (it's slightly larger and doesn’t have the same feedback when you press a key). So I'm still getting used to that when I type messages.

All in all I'm pretty happy with my choice. I have a Zune, so I was really looking forward to a Windows 7 phone (so I only had to carry one device). Unfortunately, Windows 7 on Verizon has had a "sometime this year" of eta for a while (a week after I got R2D2 when they finally said a couple of months). But hey, R2D2 was only $50 and if the VZB Windows 7 phone looks really good, I can always shelve the Droid and pick up the Windows 7 phone.


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## dpeters11

Getteau said:


> 4. Automatic Spell Check before the email was sent. I thought I turned it on in Touchdown, but it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe I have to buy the retail version to get that feature.


I don't think Touchdown supports spellcheck. They were concerned about database size, and were hoping Google would put dictionaries in. The only thing I know of in terms of limits in the trial is that you can't change the signature.


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## AttiTech

My father works for a major corporation here in North Central Florida and all they use is BlackBerry. When you first start off with them you get one of the 'beep beep' flip phones, then they upgrade you after 6 months to a new BlackBerry. He enjoys the hell out of his BlackBerry and said he just feels ackward using any other phone now. I spoke with his boss about 3 months ago and he said there wouldn't be a shot in hell that he'd ever replace the company phones with anything other than BlackBerry. I'm using an Android Comet and other than the fact that Swype is annoying most of the time and it's a smaller touch screen phone, I love mine. I've used his BlackBerry and I personally prefer it over the touchscreen phones, even though I do like those (obviously owning one). 
He's constantly having to type multipage emails to clients, the sub businesses and partners with the company. Seems like every time we go out to lunch he's emailing or texting his boss about something. His arguement is the key layout. He likes the keys being close together because he believe it's more comfortable and helps him type out what he needs to faster. This being said, he's not a small guy with feminine hands. The OS on the BlackBerry is something I enjoy more so than the Androids, and it could very well be I'm getting away from the whole 'bells and whistles' with phones because I only really use mine for on-the-go email and getting text/picture updates on what my wife and son are doing. 

-Atticus


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## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You might want to read them *Battle*Zone...most folks prefer 9 month old *facts* over *projections* 3 years into the future based on *0 facts*.


The recent (January 2011) statistics are that Android had passed Blackberry and at the rate that the Android OS is rising (and the RIM product is falling), it doesn't seem like an anomaly.

http://www.fiercemobilecontent.com/...lackberry-claim-us-smartphone-lead/2011-03-08

To the point:


> Digital research firm comScore reports that as of January 2011, Android now represents 31.2 percent of the U.S. smartphone market, a 7.7 percentage points increase since October 2010--during the same period, BlackBerry slipped 5.4 percentage points and now accounts for 30.4 percent of the country's smartphones.


It is interesting to note that back in October 2009, Gartner group projected that Android would overtake iOS and RIM some time in 2012. Gartner projected that Symbian would own 39% of the market, Android 14.5%, iOS 13.7%, WinMo 12.8% and RIM 12.5%.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9139026/Android_to_grab_No._2_spot_by_2012_says_Gartner

Now with the QNX noise from RIM, the future is murky. I remember when QNX was once proposed as the possible savior of the Commodore Amiga.


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## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> The recent (January 2011) statistics are that Android had passed Blackberry and at the rate that the Android OS is rising (and the RIM product is falling), it doesn't seem like an anomaly.


A one month trend is hardly a trend.

Every manufacturer or service vendor sees those when new devices (or major new plan offerings) are released for at least a couple months...

I'm sure the new Blackberry "Apollo" and "Dakota" devices (codenames) in field testing for release in a few months will also see a "surge" in new users.

No doubt the volumes can/will change over time, but for now...Blackberry owns the business user space. The Fortune 500 company I'm familiar with bans anything Apple or Android. No chance of that changing anytime soon.


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## spartanstew

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm sure the new Blackberry "Apollo" and "Dakota" devices (codenames) in field testing for release in a few months will also see a "surge" in new users.


I'll have to agree with the others, in that I don't think that will happen. The devices will sell as current BB users upgrade, but I think the days of BB garning "new" customers is about over. Their share will continue to erode until their nothing more than a niche product (or no longer exist). They really are a dying brand.


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## BattleZone

BlackBerrys will remain strong for BUSINESS users due to sunk costs, typical business inertia, and familiarity, though there is going to be increasing pressure to adopt solutions to allow iOS and Android phones to be used as well. But clearly business users will be the last ones using BlackBerries.

For private use, BlackBerry has lost HUGE amounts of marketshare and mindshare. And as a result, they are in big trouble as a company. Their last several rounds of product launches have been met with tepid responses and mass desertions to other platforms. Developers are leaving rather than joining because Android and iOS is where the movement is going. Heck, even BlackBerry is trying to come up with a "hybrid" (read: half-assed) solution to allow Android apps to run on BlackBerry. Does anyone believe THAT will go well?

Bottom line is that the phone market's two biggest leaders, Nokia/Symbian and RIM/BlackBerry, are seeing a sea-change as MASSIVE amounts of users are switching to phones that can run Apps. There are 300,000 Android phones being activated DAILY, and that number continues to grow.

And with phones like the LG Optimus V on Virgin Moble, which is a high-quality, pretty full-featured "mid-level" phone that you can OWN for $149 ($129 on sale right now at Best Buy), with NO CONTRACT, and talk/data plans staring as low as $25 (Unlimited Everything for $60!), a quality Android phone is within nearly everyone's reach. It isn't hard to see why Android is growing like it is.

BlackBerry is in big trouble, and they know it. I don't know how anyone can look at the facts and not see it also.


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## spartanstew

BattleZone said:


> BlackBerrys will remain strong for BUSINESS users due to sunk costs, typical business inertia, and familiarity, though there is going to be increasing pressure to adopt solutions to allow iOS and Android phones to be used as well. But clearly business users will be the last ones using BlackBerries.


But even that will erode. My company recently switched to all Google. Our company Email is Gmail based, so we utilize all the features (Google Docs, Calendar, Sites, etc.) and everyone has an Android phone. One year ago, we all had Blackberry's.


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## dpeters11

Even some of the basic Outlook functions are still limited on other devices. Most don't allow searching of your entire Exchange mailbox, syncing tasks and notes are limited (at least without separate apps.) For the features and management benefits, Blackberry is a very viable solution. Sure you at least need to put a BES in a VM, depending on the number of users and you might need a support contract with someone, but for free software, it's very powerful.


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## RasputinAXP

BES free? On what planet?


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## dpeters11

RasputinAXP said:


> BES free? On what planet?


Maybe I should have said BESX instead of BES. For many companies, the IT policies included in BESX are all they really need. If those 35 policies do what they need, and they don't need a hot spare High Availability BES, the free BESX does everything they need. No cost for the software, no per user license fee or limit (well, there is a 75 user limit if you install it directly on an Exchange server) and no need for the more expensive data plan unless you need wireless activation.

Of course there will be companies that need the other policies or need High Availability, but there are a lot that don't. My BES only goes down during scheduled maintenance windows and my users are expecting to not get mail.


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## BattleZone

spartanstew said:


> But even that will erode. My company recently switched to all Google. Our company Email is Gmail based, so we utilize all the features (Google Docs, Calendar, Sites, etc.) and everyone has an Android phone. One year ago, we all had Blackberry's.


Right. There is a HUGE push to move to Cloud computing, for a number of reasons. And the recent earthquakes in NZ and Japan are certainly among them, just as 9/11 still resonates here.

Being able to tell employees, "go to this office to work instead of the normal one" and have them be able to sit down at any desk and have full access to everything they normally use is a powerful concept, as is renting computing power on the Cloud for pennies.

And Android is very much a part of Google's Cloud services. That's going to cause many businesses to move forward on Android when otherwise they might have kept their BlackBerries for much longer.


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## spartanstew

dpeters11 said:


> Even some of the basic Outlook functions are still limited on other devices.


Yep, which is why Outlook is in a death spiral as well. I (and my current company) don't use it and haven't for years.


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## hdtvfan0001

spartanstew said:


> Yep, which is why Outlook is in a death spiral as well. I (and my current company) don't use it and haven't for years.


Respectfully disagree - MS Outlook has already been announced to be central to the next version of Microsoft Office....it's not going anywhere. Blackberry is committed to continue supporting that kind of e-mail integration.

Our company has over 23,000 licensed users. Already planning for the next version. Lotus Notes is the product in the death spiral...and their sales numbers support that downward slide.


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## spartanstew

Agree fully about Lotus Notes.

As for Outlook, we'll see. If Outlook is in fact Central to the next version of Office, there's going to be a lot of people that either don't upgrade Office, or look for other options. I don't think Outlook is in as much trouble as Blackberry, but they're certainly not on the upswing.


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## RasputinAXP

dpeters11 said:


> Maybe I should have said BESX instead of BES. For many companies, the IT policies included in BESX are all they really need. If those 35 policies do what they need, and they don't need a hot spare High Availability BES, the free BESX does everything they need. No cost for the software, no per user license fee or limit (well, there is a 75 user limit if you install it directly on an Exchange server) and no need for the more expensive data plan unless you need wireless activation.
> 
> Of course there will be companies that need the other policies or need High Availability, but there are a lot that don't. My BES only goes down during scheduled maintenance windows and my users are expecting to not get mail.


Yeah, we've got way more than 75 licenses and we need all of the security features including remote wipe.


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## dpeters11

RasputinAXP said:


> Yeah, we've got way more than 75 licenses and we need all of the security features including remote wipe.


Ok, so in that situation you wouldn't put BESX on the Exchange server, then no limit. I highly doubt you use all the IT policies. Most companies use a very small set (I think BES has about 450 total). Remote wipe works fine on BESX. You just can't do wireless activations without the BES data plan. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but quite a few BES shops have converted over to BESX, and I've seen a good number implement it as a new solution. Certainly has been more successful than BPS was.


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## RasputinAXP

dpeters11 said:


> Ok, so in that situation you wouldn't put BESX on the Exchange server, then no limit. I highly doubt you use all the IT policies. Most companies use a very small set (I think BES has about 450 total). Remote wipe works fine on BESX. You just can't do wireless activations without the BES data plan. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but quite a few BES shops have converted over to BESX, and I've seen a good number implement it as a new solution. Certainly has been more successful than BPS was.


I'm not the BES admin. Define wireless activations for me. I know right now we pay Verizon per seat for the BES licenses in addition to having to carry the BES plan on each device instead of a standard data plan.


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## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A one month trend is hardly a trend.


Then let's look at the 12 month trend for Blackberry:

Jan '10 43% 
Apr '10 41%
Jull '10 38%
Oct '10 35%
Jan '11 30%

If that doesn't look like a powered descent, you're drinking Blackberry Koolaid.


> I'm sure the new Blackberry "Apollo" and "Dakota" devices (codenames) in field testing for release in a few months will also see a "surge" in new users.


And RIM is answering with what?


> No doubt the volumes can/will change over time, but for now...Blackberry owns the business user space. The Fortune 500 company I'm familiar with bans anything Apple or Android.


My company used to be entirely WinMo 6. Now it is all iOS and everyone is lusting for the huge variety of Android options.

Unless a company's IT "visionaries" have Exchange Server mastery as their sole source of job security, I'll bet everyone's wireless phone policy is under serious consideration.

I predict that neither Microsoft nor RIM will be more than bit players in five years. I have no idea what will take their respective places (or if there will even be a place for Microsofts) but it is coming.


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## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Then let's look at the 12 month trend for Blackberry:
> 
> Jan '10 43%
> Apr '10 41%
> Jull '10 38%
> Oct '10 35%
> Jan '11 30%


Thanks. You proved my point.

Statistics can state the obvious, and also the *distort* the facts, especially out of context.

Since actual sales of mobile devices increased the past year, those units that maintained their volume would actually show reduced percentages, while only those who introduced new units with new volumes (or else increased sales of existing ones) would reflect an increase. ERGO those percentages being deceptive.

Equally important was the clear and definitive growth in Android-based units, which are gaining market acceptance in direct opposition to iOS-based devices (Apple) - that's their competition, not Blackberry in that space.

So everyone's numbers changed over the past year, and it has as much to do with new introductions, Android growth, and other sales anomolies....as it does anything to do with Blackberry device sales over the past year.

Statistics can say what folks want them to say, especially out of context. That's why believing purely isolated numbers or percentages never tells the full story.

As for Kool-Aid - no one drinks more than Apple people. I could care less who makes my device, as long as it is a reliable phone first and forward my e-mail second. Everything else is a distant second.

It happens to be Blackberry right now, governed by company policy (which prohibits anything Apple or Android-based). That could always change in the future. In the mean time...when RIM is selling over $5.8 Billion in product, they are clearly neither in trouble or sinking.

Obviously, they need to keep up with the Jones on the tech side, and their OS6-based devices will soon do just that...providing virtually anything found in an Android unit.


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## spartanstew

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks. You proved my point.
> 
> Statistics can state the obvious, and also the *distort* the facts, especially out of context.
> 
> Since actual sales of mobile devices increased the past year, those units that maintained their volume would actually show reduced percentages, while only those who introduced new units with new volumes (or else increased sales of existing ones) would reflect an increase. ERGO those percentages being deceptive.
> 
> Equally important was the clear and definitive growth in Android-based units, which are gaining market acceptance in direct opposition to iOS-based devices (Apple) - that's their competition, not Blackberry in that space.
> 
> So everyone's numbers changed over the past year, and it has as much to do with new introductions, Android growth, and other sales anomolies....as it does anything to do with Blackberry device sales over the past year.
> 
> Statistics can say what folks want them to say, especially out of context. That's why believing purely isolated numbers or percentages never tells the full story.
> 
> As for Kool-Aid - no one drinks more than Apple people. I could care less who makes my device, as long as it is a reliable phone first and forward my e-mail second. Everything else is a distant second.
> 
> It happens to be Blackberry right now, governed by company policy (which prohibits anything Apple or Android-based). That could always change in the future. In the mean time...when RIM is selling over $5.8 Billion in product, they are clearly neither in trouble or sinking.
> 
> Obviously, they need to keep up with the Jones on the tech side, and their OS6-based devices will soon do just that...providing virtually anything found in an Android unit.


Yes, percentages can be skewed depending on the number sold. Here's a different chart that actually shows the number of phones sold last year at Verizon. You can see that RIM was selling nearly 450,000 phones PER month last year in January, February, March (and had half the smart phone market). By October, after a steady decline, they were down to 200,000 phones (about 20% of the Market) - And this was before Verizon started offering the iPhone.

Anyway you look at it, Blackberry Sales are on a steady decline - which is practically the definition of a dying brand.


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## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks. You proved my point.


I didn't prove your point at all. All I showed was that Blackberry is losing market share and doing so at what appears to be an increasing rate. Why is not indicated, only how much.

For a 5% loss of market share and RIM to hold fast to existing customers would require a pretty hefty increase in the size of the smart phone market. It also points to the idea that Blackberry is not given much consideration by first-time adopters.

Say there are 10,000,000 fruits in the marketplace at some point in time. 3.5 million of them are blackberries. In order for that same 3.5 million fruits to become only 30% of the fruits extant, there must have been 17% more fruits added to the marketplace and none of them were blackberries. 70+% growth annually is outstanding unless you have no part of it.

I observe that phone hardware turnover is very high in the Blackberry market, but RIM probably isn't the big benefactor of hardware upgrades so that's not a big source of revenue. They need more big customers buying and upgrading their server products and if the user base is not expanding significantly, that's not gonna happen.


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## Mustang Dave

It is probably semi-important when comparing products such as PDA's to distinguish between the home consumer and business markets. A PDA such as a BB that has better Corporate level capabilities may not have all the app capabilities say as a Droid, and Driod may not fullfill all the requirements for Corporate use. 

My personal opinion is there is not one PDA on the market today that adequately covers both markets. To try and declare one PDA better than another seems pretty futile as it will come down to choice and needs of the individual.

I don't rely on market trends or popularity to determine what is the best technology for me or for business either. Touting numbers to back one's choice seems a bit insecure or just chest-pounding. 

The products from Google (Android, Gmail, Chrome etc) are niffty but none of them are Business Grade. Fine for use by the home user though.


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## spartanstew

Mustang Dave said:


> I don't rely on market trends or popularity to determine what is the best technology for me or for business either. Touting numbers to back one's choice seems a bit insecure or just chest-pounding.
> 
> The products from Google (Android, Gmail, Chrome etc) are niffty but none of them are Business Grade. Fine for use by the home user though.


Perhaps you should try and read the thread before posting.

Most of the comments have come from the original statement "Blackberry is a dying breed". The Market trends and/or popularity graphs and statistics are directly related to that statement and have nothing to do with anyone's current choice. So, your statement about touting numbers and insecurity shows an general ignorance on your part regarding the discussion. It's easy to jump into a thread and spout thoughts that aren't pertinent, in the future you might want to put in a little effort and try and grasp the meanings behind the words firt.

As for your second statement, droids are definitely business grade, and all the users in my company can vouch for that. There is nothing I could do on my previous Blackberry that I can't do on my current Droid, but there's lots of things I can do now that I couldn't do before.


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## dpeters11

spartanstew said:


> As for your second statement, droids are definitely business grade, and all the users in my company can vouch for that. There is nothing I could do on my previous Blackberry that I can't do on my current Droid, but there's lots of things I can do now that I couldn't do before.


Is it truly there was nothing you could do on your Blackberry that you can't on Droid, or nothing you did do on your Blackberry? There is a difference 

When one of my users wants a new device, I look at the best device for them. I have some that only care about email, contacts and calendar. I recommend Blackberry for them. For others, I think iPhone is better for them (though I'm generally not recommending getting iPhones now), others still Android. I've had one where I recommended Windows Phone 7. The only ones that have returned a unit are ones that didn't get my advice first.


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## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> I didn't prove your point at all. All I showed was that Blackberry is losing market share and doing so at what appears to be an increasing rate.


Voodoo Math.

If you have a total number of sales, and increase that number across all brands...and one of the brands does more sales than the others...the others will lose "market share", even thought their sales may exceed previous year volumes.

Anyone who has taken a statistics class knows how they can be used to manipulate a point.

Marketshare % is a moving target, and often includes the flavor-of-the-month in popular devices. Those come and go.

If someone sells 10 of something and then the next year sells 100....does that 10-fold sales increase mean its going through the roof in terms of numbers....nope.

Bottom line - RIM had better sales in 2010 than 2009, and 2009 was a better year than 2008.

Declining? Hardly.


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## spartanstew

dpeters11 said:


> Is it truly there was nothing you could do on your Blackberry that you can't on Droid, or nothing you did do on your Blackberry? There is a difference


True, and there may have been features of my BB that I never utilized. I mainly used it for Email, Scheduling, Contacts, and as a phone - the same things I use my Droid for. I'm not that big on Droid Apps and extra features.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Voodoo Math.
> 
> If you have a total number of sales, and increase that number across all brands...and one of the brands does more sales than the others...the others will lose "market share", even thought their sales may exceed previous year volumes.
> 
> Anyone who has taken a statistics class knows how they can be used to manipulate a point.
> 
> Marketshare % is a moving target, and often includes the flavor-of-the-month in popular devices. Those come and go.
> 
> If someone sells 10 of something and then the next year sells 100....does that 10-fold sales increase mean its going through the roof in terms of numbers....nope.
> 
> Bottom line - RIM had better sales in 2010 than 2009, and 2009 was a better year than 2008.
> 
> Declining? Hardly.


I'm really surprised you don't think BlackBerry's sales are eroding. You're still talking (and debating) percentages, but the other chart I showed, clearly displays that the number of phones is dwindling too. Yes, it's just one carrier, but it also doesn't have apple involved.

HERE's an article involving their Q3 results last year, which were positive, but at the same time troubling, including this quote:

*RIM is getting better at selling new devices to existing subscribers but getting worse at acquiring new subscribers.*

which really says it all in terms of their sustainability. If you can't garner new customers, you're in trouble. Do you think more people are leaving Blackberries and going to iphones or Droids? Or do you think more people are leaving iphone and droid and going back to Blackberry? Do you think first time phone owners are getting Blackberries or iphones and droids?

I would think the answer to those questions are obvious and would show that regardless of the data, BlackBerry is in trouble.


----------



## dpeters11

spartanstew said:


> True, and there may have been features of my BB that I never utilized. I mainly used it for Email, Scheduling, Contacts, and as a phone - the same things I use my Droid for. I'm not that big on Droid Apps and extra features.


I just find it funny sometimes. Our Exchange admin recently switched to Android and was telling me all the stuff it could do with Exchange. She listed about 5 things if I remember right. Every one of them was possible on her Blackberry. Maybe it's also a lack of ease of use on Blackberry. What's most aggravating is that some Android units can play back our wav voicemail files, some could until an update in their OS. Yet our Blackberries and iPhones have never had an issue.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

spartanstew said:


> I'm really surprised you don't think BlackBerry's sales are eroding.


Not to any significant degree, and not to the point it could quickly change with the release of the BlackPad and 2 new planned phone models.

All manufacturer/provider sales go up and down somewhat. I just don't see the "end of the world" scenario that has been painted by some others.

In the business world, BB is still king. In the case of at least 3 Fortune 500 companies I directly know about (representing over 100,000 employees alone), BB is the only option - iOS and Android stuff simply is banned.

The other issue I have with all this "comparison" is that its somewhat of an apples-to-oranges anyway, as the iPhone/Android consumer user group has an entirely different view/set of "needs" than the business user.

RIM offers both, but has always focused on the business user as their primary market. They continue to have a strong foothold in that space.

The consumer market is more about glitz and razzle-dazzle. In many cases, a "smartphone" is hardly a phone anymore. In still others, they do poorly as a phone, in terms of providing a quality phone user experience. Obviously I don't share the love affair some folks have with their smartphones.

For that reason, the end user purpose of how they will use a device should actually drive their list of options, as opposed to TV commercials promoting the glitz. Some folks like the glitz, and there's nothing wrong with that for their use. But in the spirit of the OP....the choice should first be based on how well it does what the buyer wants it to do things - especially the phone part.


----------



## RasputinAXP

dpeters11 said:


> What's most aggravating is that some Android units can play back our wav voicemail files, some could until an update in their OS. Yet our Blackberries and iPhones have never had an issue.


Because Google took 8 bit PCM WAV out of the player in 2.2; I use http://droidstory.com/ to reflect those WAVs back at me as MP3s.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In the business world, BB is still king.


Two years ago, Symbian was king. Now it has fractional share.

The percentage losses that Blackberry is experiencing prove that users are going elsewhere. The number of smart phones added each quarter is half what it needs to be to make holding fast an explanation.

Claiming that the defecting users weren't business users is to stick one's head in the sand.


----------



## jponte55

harsh said:


> Two years ago, Symbian was king. Now it has fractional share.
> 
> The percentage losses that Blackberry is experiencing prove that users are going elsewhere. The number of smart phones added each quarter is half what it needs to be to make holding fast an explanation.
> 
> Claiming that the defecting users weren't business users is to stick one's head in the sand.


At my company i pay for my own phone (iPhone) so I don't have to use a Blackberry. I used Blackberry for 5 years and was tired of the crappy display, unintuitive OS and amazingly bad browser.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Two years ago, Symbian was king. Now it has fractional share.
> 
> Claiming that the defecting users weren't business users is to stick one's head in the sand.


Thinking Symbian was ever really going to be "king" or that there are any *significant* "defecting business users" might just be sticking one's head elsewhere.


----------



## RasputinAXP

Globally, Symbian was king for quite a long time.


----------



## Marlin Guy

Blackberry's market is basically people who previously had a Blackberry and who are either unable or unwilling to switch to something better.

It is very much a "Dying Brand".

It will retain some market share for another year or two, but unless they step up their game tremendously, or i-Phone and Android suffer some unforeseen and unlikely calamities, RIM is done.


----------



## BubblePuppy

What was the OP's original question.. oh.. yeah.. this:


jdogg said:


> Well I have been thinking about getting the android htc, I have alwaysed wanted to use my blackberry(tether) as a modem but sprint wont let me. also just to get up to 4g is a plus, i love alot about my bb, it takes the abuse im not sure if the touch screens are willing to take a tumble from time to time. then there is the fact that i have a 8350I and my girlfriend had a 8330 and in the same house i would have full service and she was lucky to get any. some of the guys i work with says sprint side blows but the rep said that depends on the phone?? i really wanted one of those windows phones but im have been very happy with nextel and really dont want to leave them, but if i get an android then it has to be a sprint phone and im not to sure about the coverage the say they have good coverage but my girlfriends bb barely worked, i would hate to leave sprint i like there pricing plans and all but im not to sure, when is the new super bad ass blackberry coming out, or should i go android???


Jdogg, I would spend some time doing a lot of research here: 
http://forum.androidcentral.com/
If you are used to doing a lot of typing on a BB keyboard, then typing on a touchscreen will involve a learning curve. I have three BB, and I still prefer those for typing. But I'm a Android user now and love the OS. Do the research, and spend your time in those relevant forums and I'm sure you will find a phone that suits your needs. 
BTW: "Droid" refers to a line of Motorola phones, not the OS. " Android" is the name of Google's operating system, the terms shouldn't be used interchangeabley.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Marlin Guy said:


> Blackberry's market is basically people who previously had a Blackberry and who are either unable or unwilling to switch to something better.
> 
> It is very much a "Dying Brand".
> 
> It will retain some market share for another year or two, but unless they step up their game tremendously, or i-Phone and Android suffer some unforeseen and unlikely calamities, RIM is done.


!rolling

Feel free to leave your $20 bet on the table.

I love easy money.


----------



## Marlin Guy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In the business world, BB is still king. In the case of at least 3 Fortune 500 companies I directly know about (representing over 100,000 employees alone), BB is the only option - iOS and Android stuff simply is banned.


They probably still run Windows 2000 and XP as their primary desktop platforms as well.
Glacial movement doesn't always equal wisdom.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Marlin Guy said:


> They probably still run Windows 2000 and XP as their primary desktop platforms as well.
> Glacial movement doesn't always equal wisdom.


Yet its a major tech company, and forbids employee users to operate any non-BB devices based on "excessive costs tied to supporting iOS and Android-based devices and unproven security/scalability from consumer-oriented products that are not intended for business users". WIN7 is the desktop standard.

As an FYI - one exception - the mobile technology division alone works with all platforms, and has directly proven these statements to be correct through product application development hands-on experience. While they have an iOS app and an Android version...those are consumer-facing products which have proven to be extremely expensive to develop, maintain, and support overall.

It has also learned about the "unreliability and scalability issues" of the iOS and Android platforms for enterprise-grade business applications.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If you watch TV and Internet adds, you'd swear nearly everyone used a smartphone. In reality, its a minority of users. When you break it down further by manufacturer, its even less impressive.

For those with a lust for stats...

RIM, iOS, and Android all have about the same market share - 1/3.

According to recent information, only 31% of all users have a smart phone.

Link:
http://mashable.com/2011/02/01/nielsen-smartphone-marketshare/

So 10.3% of all wireless phone users user Blackberry, 10.3% user iOS phones, and 103% use Android phones.

In many regards...those are not daunting numbers.


----------



## Marlin Guy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So 10.3% of all wireless phone users user Blackberry, 10.3% user iOS phones, and *103%* use Android phones.


I knew Android was coming on strong, but that's a little hard to believe. :lol:


----------



## Marlin Guy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> RIM, iOS, and Android all have about the same market share - 1/3.


Did you even look at the charts in your own link? 

Blackberry dropped to those levels and continues its downward plummet, while Android continues to take market share from them.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Marlin Guy said:


> Did you even look at the charts in your own link?


You seemed ot have missed the big points:

1) One platform gain does not mean anothers demise - simply growth within the 69% of the market that uses NO smartphone whatsoever.

2) Numbers can tell alot of stories at the same time. Many marketing folks have made a career out of manipulative use of data.

3) I saw that chart as supporting the market growth of Android vs iOS devices as the primary impact, with RIM actually being pretty stable. Numbers can be used all sorts of ways.


----------



## Hoosier205

I gave up on RIM with their announcement of the Torch. This was supposed to be their answer, finally, to the Apple/Android devices. Then they showed us what they had and it was still years behind the competition. What a failure.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hoosier205 said:


> I gave up on RIM with their announcement of the Torch. This was supposed to be their answer, finally, to the Apple/Android devices. Then they showed us what they had and it was still years behind the competition. What a failure.


I'd totallly agree that the Torch was a letdown - but that was not going to be their next generation flagship unit anyway. They have 2 new hot devices in the oven....for release in the months ahead. Those two will compete with anything you've seen from Android, and also iOS devices...


----------



## drded

Have you checked into PDAnet for the Blackberry? It allows tethering.

Dave


----------



## BubblePuppy

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> I'd totallly agree that the Torch was a letdown - but that was not going to be their next generation flagship unit anyway. They have 2 new hot devices in the oven....for release in the months ahead. Those two will compete with anything you've seen from Android, and also iOS devices...


Where is the link to support that? As a long time Blackberry user, now ex-user, I would like to see or read about these miracle catch up devices.

Sent from my HTC Inspire/Desire HD using DBSTalk


----------



## Hoosier205

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'd totallly agree that the Torch was a letdown - but that was not going to be their next generation flagship unit anyway. They have 2 new hot devices in the oven....for release in the months ahead. Those two will compete with anything you've seen from Android, and also iOS devices...


They had better hope so for their own sake. I have no idea how they are doing in the market, but it will eventually catch up with them if they don't adapt.


----------



## Hoosier205

Also, I do believe that RIM suggested that the Torch was an attempt to compete with the iPhone. I hope the Storm 3 isn't one of the suggested devices. That one isn't going to cut it either.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BubblePuppy said:


> Where is the link to support that? As a long time Blackberry user, now ex-user, I would like to see or read about these miracle catch up devices.


I'd be glad to introduce you to the regional VP in my area for RIM - he lives in my subdivision and is "field testing" one of them...so I got a personal "demo".

I suspect if you Google "Blackberry Dakota" or "Blackberry Apollo"....ya just might find out some information.... 

Heck even the search on my BB Curve can find it... !rolling


----------



## Hoosier205

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'd be glad to introduce you to the regional VP in my area for RIM - he lives in my subdivision and is "field testing" one of them...so I got a personal "demo".
> 
> I suspect if you Google "Blackberry Dakota" or "Blackberry Apollo"....ya just might find out some information....
> 
> Heck even the search on my BB Curve can find it... !rolling


I already did and I don't see how either will compete.

*Apollo*










Rumored Specifications:

* Quad-band GSM/GPRS/EDGE
* Tri-band UMTS/HSPA 7.2Mbps
* Bluetooth 2.1
* Wi-Fi b/g/n
* GPS
* NFC
* 512MB of eMMC, 512MB of RAM
* 5-megapixel camera with flash
* HVGA 480 x 360 display
* 1050 mAh battery
* Tavor MG-1 800MHz CPU
* BlackBerry OS 6.1
* 11mm thin

http://forums.crackberry.com/f237/blackberry-apollo-rumored-device-specs-575709/

*Dakota*










Rumored Specifications:

* Quad-band GSM/GPRS/EDGE
* Tri-band UMTS
* 5 megapixel camera with HD video recording, flash, and image stabilization
* 4GB of built in storage, 768MB of RAM
* 2.8-inch VGA 640 x 480 capacitive screen
* WiFi b,g,n on 2.4GHz and 5GHz frequencies
* 3G mobile hotspot!
* MicroUSB port
* Bluetooth
* NFC
* Magnetometer
* Accelerometer
* Proximity sensor
* 10.5mm thin
* Launches with BlackBerry OS 6.1

http://forums.crackberry.com/f235/blackberry-dakota-rumored-device-specs-575707/


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hoosier205 said:


> I already did and I don't see how either will compete.


Sorry you can't see it.


----------



## Hoosier205

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sorry you can't see it.


Those specs, of not yet released devices, already fall short of current competition.


----------



## BubblePuppy

"Hoosier205" said:


> I already did and I don't see how either will compete.
> 
> Apollo
> 
> Rumored Specifications:
> 
> * Quad-band GSM/GPRS/EDGE
> * Tri-band UMTS/HSPA 7.2Mbps
> * Bluetooth 2.1
> * Wi-Fi b/g/n
> * GPS
> * NFC
> * 512MB of eMMC, 512MB of RAM
> * 5-megapixel camera with flash
> * HVGA 480 x 360 display
> * 1050 mAh battery
> * Tavor MG-1 800MHz CPU
> * BlackBerry OS 6.1
> * 11mm thin
> 
> http://forums.crackberry.com/f237/blackberry-apollo-rumored-device-specs-575709/
> 
> Dakota
> 
> Rumored Specifications:
> 
> * Quad-band GSM/GPRS/EDGE
> * Tri-band UMTS
> * 5 megapixel camera with HD video recording, flash, and image stabilization
> * 4GB of built in storage, 768MB of RAM
> * 2.8-inch VGA 640 x 480 capacitive screen
> * WiFi b,g,n on 2.4GHz and 5GHz frequencies
> * 3G mobile hotspot!
> * MicroUSB port
> * Bluetooth
> * NFC
> * Magnetometer
> * Accelerometer
> * Proximity sensor
> * 10.5mm thin
> * Launches with BlackBerry OS 6.1
> 
> http://forums.crackberry.com/f235/blackberry-dakota-rumored-device-specs-575707/


I had already checked those out, I thought Hdtvfan0001 was referring to something really advanced ... not impressed. Plus the OS is behind both Apple and Android. I can't believe RIM is sticking with the Storm name, Storm 3, considering what a disappointment it was, that is like Ford resurrecting the Edsel name. 
Sorry Rim, too little and way too late. Hdtvfan0001... stay with Blackberry.. Rim needs all the cheerleaders it can retain.
A 2.8 inch screen... too funny.

Sent from my HTC Inspire/Desire HD using DBSTalk


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BubblePuppy said:


> I had already checked those out, I thought Hdtvfan0001 was referring to something really advanced ... not impressed. *Plus the OS is behind both Apple and Android*.


Actually the latest RIM OS is not behind anyone else...in some ways its ahead, and certainly more reliable in terms of using these as a *phone*....you know...a *phone*...what they are supposed to be in the first place. 

With the release of their SDK last year, tons of new apps will also be taking advantage of the power in these new devices.

Then again...those examples were a teaser lead...I'm not gonna do everyone's homework for them to find out all the new goodies coming.

Google even works on most iOS and Android phones.


----------



## BubblePuppy

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> Actually the latest RIM OS is not behind anyone else...in some ways its ahead, and certainly more reliable in terms of using these as a phone....you know...a phone...what they are supposed to be in the first place.
> 
> With the release of their SDK last year, tons of new apps will also be taking advantage of the power in these new devices.
> 
> Then again...those examples were a teaser lead...I'm not gonna do everyone's homework for them to find out all the new goodies coming.
> 
> Google even works on most iOS and Android phones.


I figured you wouldn't provide any specific proof behind your statements. Just giving you a chance to prove your point besides just unfounded statements.
If all you want is a great phone, I have a Razr to sell.

Sent from my HTC Inspire/Desire HD using DBSTalk


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BubblePuppy said:


> I figured you wouldn't provide any specific proof behind your statements. Just giving you a chance to prove your point besides just unfounded statements.
> If all you want is a great phone, I have a Razr to sell.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Inspire/Desire HD using DBSTalk


So I guess you've never heard of the term NDA before huh?

Even to see the demo I saw required it. There's this concept in business about not sharing new technology before it's released.

Geez....I'd have thought almost everyone knew about that. 

If someone digs enough...you'd be surprised what you can find online.

Must be that Missouri concept - the "show me" state....

Some of us just don't drink iOS / Android Kool Aid in the quantities others do. The fact that a number of iOS and Android phones can't even keep a coherent phone call running points to the idea of caring less about the other razzle dazzle stuff as secondary. Seen that plenty of times.

I need no proof sir. I've seen things firsthand.


----------



## dpeters11

BubblePuppy said:


> I had already checked those out, I thought Hdtvfan0001 was referring to something really advanced ... not impressed. Plus the OS is behind both Apple and Android. I can't believe RIM is sticking with the Storm name, Storm 3, considering what a disappointment it was, that is like Ford resurrecting the Edsel name.
> Sorry Rim, too little and way too late. Hdtvfan0001... stay with Blackberry.. Rim needs all the cheerleaders it can retain.
> A 2.8 inch screen... too funny.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Inspire/Desire HD using DBSTalk


A bigger screen is what the Playbook is for.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BubblePuppy said:


> A 2.8 inch screen... too funny.


Watching video on a rinky dinky iPhone/Android screen - way beyond funny....pathetic.


dpeters11 said:


> A bigger screen is what the Playbook is for.


Yup.

And that unit will kick butt.


----------



## Hoosier205

dpeters11 said:


> A bigger screen is what the Playbook is for.


That seems to be what RIM believes...and why their announcements appear to be behind the times.


----------



## BubblePuppy

"dpeters11" said:


> A bigger screen is what the Playbook is for.


Oh... didn't know the subject was about tablets, thought it was about phones. Well then.. never mind.

Sent from my HTC Inspire/Desire HD using DBSTalk


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BubblePuppy said:


> Oh... didn't know the subject was about tablets, thought it was about phones. Well then.. never mind.


!rolling

Had to laugh out loud at your comeback - good one.

You have a valid point, of course...then again...there are plenty of people who wouldn't be caught dead squinting at a small iPhone or DROID screen at streaming content, web pages, or the like. My eyes are getting too old for that kind of pressure. :lol:


----------



## spartanstew

I don't use my Android for any of that either, but I still like the large screen. It makes reading Email, Checking my Calendar, scrolling through my contact list and many other things much easier.

As I said before, my Droid Incredible is used mainly for Phone, Email, Calendar, Contacts and the like and it's a much more enjoyable experience than my BlackBerry ever was.


----------



## prozone1

We have alltel, but at the end of the month alltel is switching to AT&T in our
area. We are getting Iphone's for the first time but the point is my daughter
can't wait to get rid of her BB


----------



## BubblePuppy

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> !rolling
> 
> Had to laugh out loud at your comeback - good one.
> 
> You have a valid point, of course...then again...there are plenty of people who wouldn't be caught dead squinting at a small iPhone or DROID screen at streaming content, web pages, or the like. My eyes are getting too old for that kind of pressure. :lol:


My eyes share your limitations... that's why I use the Readers Digest large print fonts.  
Trust me, I'm not saying that any of these phones are a replacement for a good tablet, but are easier to fit in my pockets. 
You seem to forget that I'm a long time user of BB. Those phones can't be beat for all the business reasons you have accurately stated. It's just that RIM just didn't keep up fast enough, which I have lamented many times. For me it is too late.

Sent from my HTC Inspire/Desire HD using DBSTalk


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yet its a major tech company, and forbids employee users to operate any non-BB devices based on "excessive costs tied to supporting iOS and Android-based devices and unproven security/scalability from consumer-oriented products that are not intended for business users". WIN7 is the desktop standard.


Any company that has employees that need corporate technical support to use their phones is on a trajectory for a serious downsizing.

In my limited experience, the Blackberries are far and away the most difficult smart phone to use. It is certainly the only device of any kind that I've needed outside help to configure e-mail (and I've configured security cameras to send incident e-mails through a secure e-mail server).

As for one version of Windows being any better or less suited to conducting business, I'm sure most would agree that W2K was probably the least intrusive and most stable.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Any company that has employees that need corporate technical support to use their phones is on a trajectory for a serious downsizing.


Really?

We grew a net of 950 employees over the past year. Guess not.


----------



## dpeters11

harsh said:


> Any company that has employees that need corporate technical support to use their phones is on a trajectory for a serious downsizing.


Never dealt with a bunch of attorneys (500 or so) have you 

Some are very tech literate, some have to ask questions. I found one who got an iPhone when it first came out, and asked me last week "What's iTunes." Others won't deal with the carrier, we call on their behalf on carrier issues, alert them to network outages, order phones that they are individually liable for. Some of these are very well regarded in their fields, but tech is not their strong suit.


----------



## dpeters11

prozone1 said:


> We have alltel, but at the end of the month alltel is switching to AT&T in our
> area. We are getting Iphone's for the first time but the point is my daughter
> can't wait to get rid of her BB


Just to be sure, are you sure you want to get an iPhone now? I'd personally stick with Alltel on a month to month until June. Why get stuck in a two year contract when the new unit is due in a few months?


----------



## Hoosier205

I should say that I do still have a Blackberry, but only because I must. My company is more than 200 years old and slow to innovate...sort of like RIM in that regard. The iPhone is my primary phone, while the Blackberry is for business phone/email only. The iPhone outperforms it in every single way, but is not allowed.


----------



## Shades228

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Watching video on a rinky dinky iPhone/Android screen - way beyond funny....pathetic.
> 
> Yup.
> 
> And that unit will kick butt.


Navigation, reading a web site, applications, even the contacts list benefits from screen size.

I get it that you have some personal investment in RIM. I loved my Amiga 500 and held onto any hope I could that they would be saved. It still didn't change the fact that the writing was on the wall and it was going to take a miracle to keep it around.

RIM is in the same boat. Consumers don't buy Backberry's for personal use. Once enough consumers have smart phones they will start changing their corporate mentality. IOS and android are slowly starting to creep into the corporate markets. Is it slow? Sure about as slow as RIM was when Win 5/6 and Symbian held that market share.

You want numbers and percentages here:

http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/09/ga...-trumps-ios-and-rim-grew-888-percent-in-2010/#

You could find hundreds of other articles and if you want to just pick and choose certain things to talk about then so be it. However the fact doesn't change that RIM is losing the marketing and PR battles of the smart phones. They have not one single phone that is designed to be a fun and advanced smart phone. The 2 commercials they have about their apps are for a slot machine restraunt finder or a movie theatre application. They cannot do anything right now to attract young people who are the driving force of smart phones. My first smart phone was a Treo 650 and I was 27 when I got it. All of my children, even my 5 year old, has an android phone because of ease of use. I offered to get my kids iphones if they wanted instead now that Verizon has them but they prefer android because that's what most people have now days.

RIM may still be a fine product for very specific things but overall it's not as competitive, or offers their users the same variety of apps that other OS's can. That is the downfall because google and apple can at any time choose to create something specific for outlook and they can attack RIM directly. They don't because the money in the business sector is peanuts compared to the public sector.


----------



## Shades228

Speaking of:



> Not everyone at Microsoft is marching in lockstep to the idea that Windows Phone 7 will rule the enterprise. At the Microsoft Management Summit (MMS), the company announced that it has released a beta of a tool to let IT manage iPhones, iPads, Android devices, Symbian devices, and Windows Phone 7 devices in the enterprise. Up until now, the tool only worked for Windows Mobile.


http://blogs.computerworld.com/1801..._offers_it_tool_for_iphones_ipads_and_android


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Shades228 said:


> Navigation, reading a web site, applications, even the contacts list benefits from screen size.
> 
> I get it that you have some personal investment in RIM.


I have no investment in RIM whatsoever....but my eyes don't lie.

Significant or comprehensive content on a screen smaller than 7" is a farce to many people.


----------



## bobukcat

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I have no investment in RIM whatsoever....but my eyes don't lie.
> 
> Significant or comprehensive content on a screen smaller than 7" is a farce to many people.


There is no doubt that _I_ have no interest in watching a movie on a small screen, even my 10 inch Xoom tablet is lacking in that respect since I'm used to watching on 50" or 60" screens at home. But for maps, web browsing (sometimes it's really nice to be able to look something up on the go) the occasional Youtube video, some light gaming and even the occasional Kindle book there is no doubt that either an i*hone or Android device with a 3.5" or larger display is going to be a better experience than on a BB (playbook withstanding even though it's not even released yet). In fact it appears that a significant portion of the smartphone buying public prefers a phone with at least a 4" screen (see link) and I doubt it's because they think it makes the device a better actual phone as opposed to a multi-mode device. The fact that BB's browser was severely lacking in performance and still trails the best by a LONG shot is another reason most people not saddled to them by work will usually choose something else.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/22/hummer-handsets-now-account-for-24-percent-of-us-smartphone-sa/


----------



## bobukcat

Shades228 said:


> Speaking of:
> 
> http://blogs.computerworld.com/1801..._offers_it_tool_for_iphones_ipads_and_android


I firmly believe that the days of corporations buying smartphones for their employees is numbered. The demo that VMWare showed of being able to run an Android device in Dual OS mode, with those modes (personal / non-secured and Enterprise / secured) being quickly hot swappable and this all being provisioned from an SD card is the type thing enterprises are looking for. Instead of listening to Joe Salesperson and Susie Marketing complain that they can't use their I*hone or Droid on the corporate network is gone - they just tell them to go ahead and buy what they want and then provision it to have an separate OS occurrence running on that device. Susie or Joe pick up the cost of the hardware (and probably the data plan eventually) and their bosses don't have to listen to them complain - that's a win-win for the employer.

I already know of a few major corporations that have started this type of thing with not only the smartphones / tablets but also actual laptops / Macbooks.


----------



## spartanstew

bobukcat said:


> There is no doubt that _I_ have no interest in watching a movie on a small screen, even my 10 inch Xoom tablet is lacking in that respect since I'm used to watching on 50" or 60" screens at home. But for maps, web browsing (sometimes it's really nice to be able to look something up on the go) the occasional Youtube video, some light gaming and even the occasional Kindle book there is no doubt that either an i*hone or Android device with a 3.5" or larger display is going to be a better experience than on a BB (playbook withstanding even though it's not even released yet).


Agreed. It also makes mundane things like looking at your contact list, viewing text messages, checking the weather, and viewing my agenda much easier and better.


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## RasputinAXP

bobukcat said:


> I firmly believe that the days of corporations buying smartphones for their employees is numbered.


Nonsense. You want me on call? You buy me that phone, or pager, or what have you.


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## dpeters11

RasputinAXP said:


> Nonsense. You want me on call? You buy me that phone, or pager, or what have you.


More companies are adding a set amount onto paychecks or something to credit for part of a cell bill. People don't want to carry two phones, and companies don't want to deal with the bills, separating out company calls and personal etc.


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## Marlin Guy

dpeters11 said:


> More companies are adding a set amount onto paychecks or something to credit for part of a cell bill. People don't want to carry two phones, and companies don't want to deal with the bills, separating out company calls and personal etc.


My wife's employer provides this option.
They also pay her gym membership. She uses the phone more than she does the gym. :grin:


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## bobukcat

RasputinAXP said:


> Nonsense. You want me on call? You buy me that phone, or pager, or what have you.


I think it will be a trickle-down effect with higher level employees being the first to get this as an option and eventually forced to them with lower level employees being the last to be affected.

My wife and I both work for very large high-tech manufacturers and they have both stopped reimbursing employees that work from a home office (both of us fall into that category) for high-speed internet access. Their excuse was that these connections are now a ubiquitous technology even though the numbers show that considerably less than 50% of US households have Hi-Speed data service. I believe mobile phone service will be the next to be cut, but it may take years before it's a common practice in the U.S.


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## Mikemok1981

PC World


> The PlayBook, which becomes available on April 19, will have two optional 'app players' that will provide run-time environments for BlackBerry Java apps and Android 2.3 apps


Interesting play from RIM with the Playbook.


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## hdtvfan0001

Mikemok1981 said:


> PC World
> 
> Interesting play from RIM with the Playbook.


Smart play by RIM.


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## Marlin Guy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Smart play by RIM.


Not so smart.... :nono2:
FTA - "The applications won't work automatically in the PlayBook app players, however. Developers will need to "quickly and easily" port their apps to run on the tablet OS, RIM said."


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## RasputinAXP

> The PlayBook, which becomes available on April 19, will have two optional "app players" that will provide run-time environments for BlackBerry Java apps and Android 2.3 apps. The players will let users download BlackBerry Java Apps and Android Apps from BlackBerry App World.
> 
> The applications won't work automatically in the PlayBook app players, however. Developers will need to "quickly and easily" port their apps to run on the tablet OS, RIM said.
> 
> They will also have to repackage, code sign and submit their apps to the App World for approval.


So wait, what was the point of this again? Man. It's an Android/BB app player that you have to recode for. That's just goofy.


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## dpeters11

RasputinAXP said:


> So wait, what was the point of this again? Man. It's an Android/BB app player that you have to recode for. That's just goofy.


Repackaging, signing and submitting to the RIM market isn't the same as recoding like apps that are made for iOS and Android.

Here's the biggest problem...it will run Gingerbread apps, not Honeycomb tablet apps. Ever try to run a non-universal iPhone app on an iPad? Not the greatest experience. Hoping that can be added later, maybe it's just because Google is keeping the Honeycomb source code closely guarded.


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## hdtvfan0001

Marlin Guy said:


> Not so smart.... :nono2:
> FTA - "The applications won't work automatically in the PlayBook app players, however. Developers will need to "quickly and easily" port their apps to run on the tablet OS, RIM said."


Sorry - its smart.

Anything that broadens the potential use and buyers is smart.

The adaptations you reference are not the big deal some portray them as...


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## bobukcat

RasputinAXP said:


> So wait, what was the point of this again? Man. It's an Android/BB app player that you have to recode for. That's just goofy.


I agree, if the thing is running Android "under the covers" anyway just let the OS handle the games natively.

As for Google keeping the Honeycomb source code under wraps, I'm sure RIM is large enough to get in the game and get access to it just like Moto, HTC, Samsung, etc. have - it's just not been released to the general public / application developers yet.


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## Shades228

bobukcat said:


> As for Google keeping the Honeycomb source code under wraps, I'm sure RIM is large enough to get in the game and get access to it just like Moto, HTC, Samsung, etc. have - it's just not been released to the general public / application developers yet.


Aka the ROM community.


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## dpeters11

"bobukcat" said:


> I agree, if the thing is running Android "under the covers" anyway just let the OS handle the games natively.
> 
> As for Google keeping the Honeycomb source code under wraps, I'm sure RIM is large enough to get in the game and get access to it just like Moto, HTC, Samsung, etc. have - it's just not been released to the general public / application developers yet.


The Playbook is not Android based, it runs QNX. Android apps would run in a VM, I think Dalvik.


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## RasputinAXP

Exactly. They'd just have to code a Dalvik machine for QNX. Why the hell should it be on the developer's shoulder to recompile to a unique target like "The Android Thingy What Runs On the Playbook"?


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## Marlin Guy

RasputinAXP said:


> Exactly. They'd just have to code a Dalvik machine for QNX. Why the hell should it be on the developer's shoulder to recompile to a unique target like "The Android Thingy What Runs On the Playbook"?


Exactly my point.
Developers won't make that jump until Playbook proves itself in sales.
Cart <----> Horse


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## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sorry - its smart.
> 
> Anything that broadens the potential use and buyers is smart.


Yet it may be suicide if it takes away from the motivation/ROI of building a native application. In the computer world, there were machines like the Apple /// and the Commodore 128 that were great computers in their own right but were often relegated to running software for their predecessors because it was "good enough" or didn't retail for substantially more.

How many gaming consoles never really reached their potential because they were largely running software from lesser platforms?

What makes a platform commercially viable is having a fully functional operating system with the tools and support to make development of native applications cheap and easy.


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## Shades228

The largest issue is as a developer if I can write for Android and pickup BB customers I will. So that means native BB apps are now less effective to make from a marketing perspective.


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## Shades228

Hmm I'm failing to see this large draw this will have until it's first major software update:

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011...playbook-without-mail-messaging-or-contacts/#



> Oh, RIM! What are you doing? According to a leaked internal document, the BlackBerry PlayBook tablet will ship without native support for e-mail, contacts or messaging. To use any of these services, you'll have to either hook up a BlackBerry handset, or access them through the web browser.
> 
> The document, a seven-page FAQ for the upcoming tablet, lays out the details. To use these core BlackBerry services you need to use "BlackBerry Bridge", which displays the BlackBerry's apps on the PlayBook's screen. Here's the full text from the relevant section:


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## klang

I suppose to the RIM fanatic it won't matter. 

What is the deal with these new tablet manufacturers sending out stuff that isn't complete?


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## hdtvfan0001

klang said:


> I suppose to the RIM fanatic it won't matter.
> 
> *What is the deal with these new tablet manufacturers sending out stuff that isn't complete*?


Thought the same thing with iPad...enter...iPad2...and eventually iPad 3....


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## Shades228

klang said:


> I suppose to the RIM fanatic it won't matter.
> 
> What is the deal with these new tablet manufacturers sending out stuff that isn't complete?


They would rather get something into the hands of consumers than not have anything out there. I don't agee with this mentality and is one of the few things I do agree with Apple's business model.


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## hdtvfan0001

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thought the same thing with iPad...enter...iPad2...and eventually iPad 3....





Shades228 said:


> They would rather get something into the hands of consumers than not have anything out there. I don't agee with this mentality and is one of the few things I do agree with Apple's business model.


Really? :lol:


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## Shades228

So far it's the only thing I haven't seen Apple do is ship something with a feature missing that most people would consider a basic function. 

Multi-tasking is about as close as you get but really more people don't multi-task like they think they do with applications.


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## klang

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thought the same thing with iPad...enter...iPad2...and eventually iPad 3....


Missing 'native support for e-mail, contacts or messaging'?

No.


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## hdtvfan0001

klang said:


> Missing 'native support for e-mail, contacts or messaging'?
> 
> No.


Guess we'll find out when it *actually comes out*...if it's true.


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## Getteau

Shades228 said:


> So far it's the only thing I haven't seen Apple do is ship something with a feature missing that most people would consider a basic function.
> 
> Multi-tasking is about as close as you get but really more people don't multi-task like they think they do with applications.


Depends what you consider basic function. Both Apple and Android shipped their V1 products without full ActiveSync support for Exchange. That alone was a major killer for the iPhone and Androids in many large businesses. To me, if you are going to include ActiveSync support, you need to support the full thing. Especially since the security policies in ActiveSync have been around since at least 2005 (when Exchange 2003 SP2 shipped). So it's not like we were talking about some brand new MS thing when the iPhone shipped. Since it had only been out for 2 or 3 years, I can give Apple a slight pass on their missing ActiveSync support. :lol: However, there was absolutely no excuse on the Android front. Especially given the uproar Apple went through 2 or 3 years earlier for not supporting it out of the box.


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## Getteau

Shades228 said:


> Hmm I'm failing to see this large draw this will have until it's first major software update:
> 
> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011...playbook-without-mail-messaging-or-contacts/#


The only possible excuse I could buy from RIM was something that was pointed out in the comments on the article. If you let this device have email and connect to BES, you would have to change BES to allow a user to have multiple devices in BES and it would also consume 2 CALs for that user. Now, even that is a stretch. Instead of releasing a product that doesn't do what BB's are supposed to do, how about RIM updates BES to support an end user with a handheld and a tablet. That makes a whole lot more sense than releasing a product that doesn't do what your company is supposed to be the best at.


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## dpeters11

"Getteau" said:


> The only possible excuse I could buy from RIM was something that was pointed out in the comments on the article. If you let this device have email and connect to BES, you would have to change BES to allow a user to have multiple devices in BES and it would also consume 2 CALs for that user. Now, even that is a stretch. Instead of releasing a product that doesn't do what BB's are supposed to do, how about RIM updates BES to support an end user with a handheld and a tablet. That makes a whole lot more sense than releasing a product that doesn't do what your company is supposed to be the best at.


They certainly could do this. In BES Express it's easy as there is no license cost. If it weren't for no High Availiblity support (a backup BES for when the primary is down), I'd look at switching myself.


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## Sixto

Amazing how opinionated people get, defending to the death.

It's certainly obvious that Android & iPhone are kicking Blackberry's butt recently, and of course it could change with new products.

And Blackberry has a huge corporate market, so a good base to defend.

And I'm a die-hard Blackberry user, but always have an open mind to understand market dynamics.

Just a year ago, BBM was huge, huge with kids, growing, great ... now many, many, moving to Android & iPhone ... it happens.

Family member just switched (from 8530) ... loves the iPhone.

Another contemplating the same move (from 9650).

And then me. 

BGR showed off the Monaco today.


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## hdtvfan0001

I believe there is a place and a market for both platforms, and both will continue to serve those markets.


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## bobukcat

Getteau said:


> Depends what you consider basic function. Both Apple and Android shipped their V1 products without full ActiveSync support for Exchange. That alone was a major killer for the iPhone and Androids in many large businesses. To me, if you are going to include ActiveSync support, you need to support the full thing. Especially since the security policies in ActiveSync have been around since at least 2005 (when Exchange 2003 SP2 shipped). So it's not like we were talking about some brand new MS thing when the iPhone shipped. Since it had only been out for 2 or 3 years, I can give Apple a slight pass on their missing ActiveSync support. :lol: However, there was absolutely no excuse on the Android front. Especially given the uproar Apple went through 2 or 3 years earlier for not supporting it out of the box.


I think the main "excuse" for not including ActiveSync support (versions 1.x of Android have NO activesync support at all, you had to buy Touchdown or another e-mail application to support it) was not paying a license to MS for using ActiveSync. Google has licensed it for versions 2.x and yet MS is still suing device manufacturers like Motorola for not licensing from them too.

I agree it was a glaring hole that was missing for corporate users but there was an effective and fairly inexpensive ($25 for Touchdown IIRC) way to address it. The first iPhone was missing some pretty major features too but I can't remember what they were.


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## dpeters11

bobukcat said:


> I think the main "excuse" for not including ActiveSync support (versions 1.x of Android have NO activesync support at all, you had to buy Touchdown or another e-mail application to support it) was not paying a license to MS for using ActiveSync. Google has licensed it for versions 2.x and yet MS is still suing device manufacturers like Motorola for not licensing from them too.
> 
> I agree it was a glaring hole that was missing for corporate users but there was an effective and fairly inexpensive ($25 for Touchdown IIRC) way to address it. The first iPhone was missing some pretty major features too but I can't remember what they were.


I don't think Microsoft is suing them over Activesync, it's Android itself, they said it infringed on some of their patents.

The first iPhone (or first OS) certainly was missing a lot of features...like apps. In terms of Exchange synching, it's still missing some, like being able to delete email with no Internet connection, remote search of email, synching notes and tasks, setting Out of Office etc.


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## Shades228

Getteau said:


> Depends what you consider basic function. Both Apple and Android shipped their V1 products without full ActiveSync support for Exchange. That alone was a major killer for the iPhone and Androids in many large businesses. To me, if you are going to include ActiveSync support, you need to support the full thing. Especially since the security policies in ActiveSync have been around since at least 2005 (when Exchange 2003 SP2 shipped). So it's not like we were talking about some brand new MS thing when the iPhone shipped. Since it had only been out for 2 or 3 years, I can give Apple a slight pass on their missing ActiveSync support. :lol: However, there was absolutely no excuse on the Android front. Especially given the uproar Apple went through 2 or 3 years earlier for not supporting it out of the box.


Why would Google care about Activesync? They want companies to use GMAIL not Exchange. In fact the latest rumor is that MS is working on software that will let non windows phones work without having native support. This is to help retain those exchange customers. While I like Exchange it's not even close to a basic function because they weren't touting it as a business phone.


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## bobukcat

dpeters11 said:


> I don't think Microsoft is suing them over Activesync, it's Android itself, they said it infringed on some of their patents.
> 
> The first iPhone (or first OS) certainly was missing a lot of features...like apps. In terms of Exchange synching, it's still missing some, like being able to delete email with no Internet connection, remote search of email, synching notes and tasks, setting Out of Office etc.


It's not the only part of the suit but it's certainly a significant piece of it:



> (A Microsoft spokersperson characterized the patents in question as being "OS-related and (related to) Exchange ActiveSync.")


http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft...ng-sabres-and-starts-slashing-at-android/7544


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## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I believe there is a place and a market for both platforms, and both will continue to serve those markets.


There was a pretty solid footing for WinMo and Symbian a couple of years ago.


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## bobukcat

harsh said:


> There was a pretty solid footing for WinMo and Symbian a couple of years ago.


Zinger!


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## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> There was a pretty solid footing for WinMo and Symbian a couple of years ago.


Not really.

Most people saw the handwriting on the wall for Symbian.

Windows Mobile = PocketPC - Microsoft hobby.


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## Shades228

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not really.
> 
> Most people saw the handwriting on the wall for Symbian.
> 
> Windows Mobile = PocketPC - Microsoft hobby.


Maybe in the US but outside of the US Symbian was king and really for Android to overtake it was surprising for many.


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## klang

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Guess we'll find out when it *actually comes out*...if it's true.


And the reviews are coming in.

Case of Codependency


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## hdtvfan0001

klang said:


> And the reviews are coming in.
> 
> Case of Codependency


Those very same reviews indicate the gaps will be closed this summer.


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## BattleZone

Sell Research In Motion. NOW.

The writing is on the wall...


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## hdtvfan0001

BattleZone said:


> Sell Research In Motion. NOW.
> 
> The writing is on the wall...


An interesting piece for sure.

Not sure any writing is on the way...as something unfinished has as much chance to be altered (for competitive purposes) as anything else. The Blackpad could easily change its firmware to compete with other tablets if that's their intent.

RIM's historical business application leadership might cause them to look to an alternative strategic plan for business-only application. They've owned that space to date.

Comparing an iPad to a Blackpad is like comparing any other consumer vs business differentiators - different needs, different applications. iPads are forbidden in our Fortune 500 company, whereas Blackberry is the corporate communications standard. iPads are viewed as a consumer-only product in many businesses, including virtually all of our own 1100 clients.

They have different markets and serve different purposes. They also feature different security and other criteria for deployment. In contrast, Andoid devices might have a play in the business world.

It's another wait and see more than anything else.


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## Sixto

Almost every single day, I go from "keep Blackberry" to "ditch Blackberry" and back again ... on and on ... really do ... everyday ... 

Right now I'm probably in the "keep" category, but that may change in an hour. 

The reason for the constant state of flux, is that I keep discovering new information ...

My blackberry is absolutely perfect, perfect, for e-mail, calendar, address book, and BBM/texting ... it's the other stuff that's that problem.

And I keep finding out little nit things that aren't as good on the iPhone, as an example the Blackberry can see how many new and unread e-mails there are before you unlock it, the iPhone can't, and there are others.

Back and forth, and back and forth I go ...

The one constant is that the iPad is perfect for my needs, so that ain't changing. 

And in a way, the iPad may be the answer why I keep my Blackberry, or maybe not ... decisions, decisions ... especially when the Bold Touch and Touch ship ...


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