# Antenna Problems



## Rasputin13 (Oct 24, 2006)

I recently installed a Channel Master 3016 in my attic (I am within 15 miles of all trasmission points). Here's the problem -- I can only pick up Channel 2 in digital, which happens to be the only vhf digital broadcast in my area. Switching to analog, I still pick up only vhf stations. In fact, the uhf analogs do not even show a hint of a picture.

My antenna aim shouldn't be an issue as other stations transmit from the exact point channel 2 does -- so it seems to be a vhf/uhf problem. Could there be a problem with the antenna? Or is it really possible that I could pick up vhf stations without even a hint of uhf's? Also, am I correct to assume that amplification will not help me if the uhf's do not even show on analog?

Thanks for the help!


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## Matt Beachy (Jun 15, 2006)

Part of the problem is that the antenna is in the attic. How long is your coax run from the antenna to the TV? I'm a big believer in using pre-amps with antennas. I have a Channel Master 7775. If you are trying to pick up vhf and uhf, you'd probably want the 7777. Pre-amps can make a big difference.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Rasputin13 said:


> I recently installed a Channel Master 3016 in my attic (I am within 15 miles of all trasmission points). Here's the problem -- I can only pick up Channel 2 in digital, which happens to be the only vhf digital broadcast in my area. Switching to analog, I still pick up only vhf stations. In fact, the uhf analogs do not even show a hint of a picture.
> 
> My antenna aim shouldn't be an issue as other stations transmit from the exact point channel 2 does -- so it seems to be a vhf/uhf problem. Could there be a problem with the antenna? Or is it really possible that I could pick up vhf stations without even a hint of uhf's? Also, am I correct to assume that amplification will not help me if the uhf's do not even show on analog?
> 
> Thanks for the help!


Unless the UHF digital stations are on low power, you should receive them well, even with the antenna in your attic. It almost sounds to me like the UHF portion of the antenna is not interconnected with the VHF section. How do you have the antenna cabled to the receiver? Before using the Channel Master antenna, were you able to receive analog/digital UHF TV channels?


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Rasputin13 said:


> I recently installed a Channel Master 3016 in my attic (I am within 15 miles of all trasmission points). Here's the problem -- I can only pick up Channel 2 in digital, which happens to be the only vhf digital broadcast in my area. Switching to analog, I still pick up only vhf stations. In fact, the uhf analogs do not even show a hint of a picture.
> 
> My antenna aim shouldn't be an issue as other stations transmit from the exact point channel 2 does -- so it seems to be a vhf/uhf problem. Could there be a problem with the antenna? Or is it really possible that I could pick up vhf stations without even a hint of uhf's? Also, am I correct to assume that amplification will not help me if the uhf's do not even show on analog?
> 
> Thanks for the help!


Are you sure the channel master is installed correctly? Some models come with an antenna diplexer that combines the VHF and UHF portion of the antenna to a single coax led. You should be getting SOMETHING from the UHF band from your antenna...

You're correct, amplification is not your problem and an amplifier will not help you. Check your install again and make sure the UHF portion of your antenna is properly installed.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I would check your cabling. If it is compromised (wet, crushed, open or shorted), it won't pass the higher frequencies. I use the RS version of that antenna at 50ALM from my "local" stations and get excellent reception.

At 15 miles (and assuming Line Of Sight), you shouldn't need much of antenna. A bow-tie or loop antenna that used to come with televisions should be able to pick up even the weakest signal if aimed in the right direction.

If you don't have LOS, you may be SOL.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Radio Enginerd said:


> ...BTW: I'm familiar with your area (lived in Chico for many years) and you should be able to get your UHF's without a problem. Which stations are you trying to recieve KHSL, KRCR, KNVN, KCVU or ALL?


Radio Enginerd,

I this is my DMA not Rasputin13's. If his UHF is not connected to the VHF portion of his antenna, then maybe the antenna was accidentally aimed in the opposite direction, away from the stations. UHF is better reflected away from the back of the antenna, moreso than VHF.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

boylehome said:


> Radio Enginerd,
> 
> I this is my DMA not Rasputin13's. If his UHF is not connected to the VHF portion of his antenna, then maybe the antenna was accidentally aimed in the opposite direction, away from the stations. UHF is better reflected away from the back of the antenna, moreso than VHF.


DOH! I will modify my original post. Thank you Thank you!!


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## Rasputin13 (Oct 24, 2006)

To answer a few questions. The set-up is new, I previously got local from satellite. The cabling is all new RG6 RF cable, run of about 75 feet. The coax connects to the antenna via something the manual calls a transformer, which has a coax connection on one end and two leads that connect to the antenna. The leads connect to a posts on a straight uhf (i think) element via wingnuts. Also tied into these uhf element posts are crossover wires running from the vhf elements. I'm 99.9% positive that I have the antenna aimed correctly -- that is, with the uhf elements pointing towards the transmission sources. 

As for line of sight, I do have some medium density trees in the way, though I assumed that I would still get something on uhf, esp. if I get vhf stations -- biut maybe that's not right?

Thanks again for eveyone's input.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Rasputin13 said:


> To answer a few questions. The set-up is new, I previously got local from satellite. The cabling is all new RG6 RF cable, run of about 75 feet. The coax connects to the antenna via something the manual calls a transformer, which has a coax connection on one end and two leads that connect to the antenna. The leads connect to a posts on a straight uhf (i think) element via wingnuts. Also tied into these uhf element posts are crossover wires running from the vhf elements. I'm 99.9% positive that I have the antenna aimed correctly -- that is, with the uhf elements pointing towards the transmission sources.
> 
> As for line of sight, I do have some medium density trees in the way, though I assumed that I would still get something on uhf, esp. if I get vhf stations -- biut maybe that's not right?
> 
> Thanks again for eveyone's input.


Concerning you new set-up, did the old set-up work? In new set-up are you talking just the antenna and cable or the receiver too? I would assume that there is a problem with the transformer in that it is not passing the UHF or something in the attic is canceling (Multipath or out of phase signal) the UHF signal, or there is a break in the conductor of the cable used, or something is wrong at the receiver end. My gut feeling is there is a connection problem which may have little affect on VHF but drastic affect on UHF. Check them connections and be sure the cable is good.


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## Rasputin13 (Oct 24, 2006)

boylehome said:


> Concerning you new set-up, did the old set-up work? In new set-up are you talking just the antenna and cable or the receiver too? I would assume that there is a problem with the transformer in that it is not passing the UHF or something in the attic is canceling (Multipath or out of phase signal) the UHF signal, or there is a break in the conductor of the cable used, or something is wrong at the receiver end. My gut feeling is there is a connection problem which may have little affect on VHF but drastic affect on UHF. Check them connections and be sure the cable is good.


The old set-up was satellite to SD TV. The new is currently the antenna with a direct connection to a new TV with ATSC tuner.

To start, I guess I will replace the transformer and re- re-check all connections and the line -- I guess it's possible something got damaged.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Rasputin13 said:


> The old set-up was satellite to SD TV. The new is currently the antenna with a direct connection to a new TV with ATSC tuner.
> 
> To start, I guess I will replace the transformer and re- re-check all connections and the line -- I guess it's possible something got damaged.


So if I understand the facts right, you didn't use this Channel Master antenna to pull in OTA.

Have you ever been sucessful at pulling local UHF channels over this Channel Master with the old TV or were you just using the old TV to pull locals through your sat rec?

Sorry for the 20 questions, just trying to help.


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## Rasputin13 (Oct 24, 2006)

Radio Enginerd said:


> So if I understand the facts right, you didn't use this Channel Master antenna to pull in OTA.
> 
> Have you ever been sucessful at pulling local UHF channels over this Channel Master with the old TV or were you just using the old TV to pull locals through your sat rec?
> 
> Sorry for the 20 questions, just trying to help.


Right. Never used the Channel Master before (or any other antenna for that matter). And no, I have never tried to get ota signals from my current location by any means.

No worries on the questions. I appreciate any help as I am stumped.


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## Digital Madman (May 23, 2005)

It could be possible overload from the UHF channels, since you are so close. Try turning the antenna to the sides of the signal and see if that helps. I've got a UHF dt
signal 41 miles away that overloads to the point it drops out constantly, unless I turn
the antenna to the east of the tower. 
Signals that are 60 miles away on UHF dt never give me problems, even on the windiest of days. Overkill can be hard to figure on digital signals


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Digital Madman said:


> It could be possible overload from the UHF channels, since you are so close. Try turning the antenna to the sides of the signal and see if that helps. I've got a UHF dt
> signal 41 miles away that overloads to the point it drops out constantly, unless I turn
> the antenna to the east of the tower.
> Signals that are 60 miles away on UHF dt never give me problems, even on the windiest of days. Overkill can be hard to figure on digital signals


Overload... hmmm, interesting theory but if I remember correctly the Channel Master is in his attic. The eves of the attic and roof tiles (shingles) should dampen the signal enough that, at 15 miles from his DTV transmitters, should not be overloading.

I would check the transformer (diplexer) that connects the UHF and VHF elements at the antenna itself. I'd also check the lead wire that goes from the transformer to the UHF section of the antenna. My gut tells me your problem is there.

Best of luck!


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## nostar (Jun 22, 2003)

Try a UHF/VHF indoor antenna to compare to the attic installation. This should tell you something.

Lots of good advice above. Shorted/open antenna connection, shorted/open transmission line, not properly connected to the TV, etc.

Doubt that you need amplification at 15 miles, vhf or uhf.


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## trapper (Nov 7, 2005)

Possible that phasing rods not connected? Cannot remember if 3016 has these.
If you made-up RG-6 cable ends, check for stray ground wrapped around center conductor.
Check that TV is in Off-Air/Antenna mode, not Cable mode.
PG


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## Rasputin13 (Oct 24, 2006)

Me again. Still no UHF. I have rechecked all connection per the antenna instructions and replaced the "transformer."

Here the deal. I think I must be doing something wrong, for 2 reasons (1) I tried a cheap indoor antenna and still couldn't get any uhf signals (analog or digital), but could get vhf (both), and (2) I simply cannot believe that wouldn't even get a hint -- and i mean pure snow -- of a uhf analog signal from where I'm at (13 miles from transmission source) but do get vhf clearly. Does anyone have a link/site on antenna installation for dummies?

Quick recap: I have a new Sony LCD with a single coax input for uhf & vhf. I have a channelmaster 3016 in the attic. The coax (new rg6) is connected to the antenna via a "transformer" that has a female coax connection on one end and two leads on the other that screw onto the antenna. [I don't really know how to tell if the uhf and vhf portions of the antenna are connected, and no, there aren't phasing rods on the antenna)

The indoor antenna I used for the test was a bunny ear/loop combo from phillips. It had two sets of two-wire leads. I connected both sets of lead wires to the transformer/converter (300-75 ohm), which I then plugged into the TV. 

I'm going crazy. Despite much internet-based research, I cannot find what I am doing wrong.


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## DougRuss (Oct 16, 2005)

Have you done a "Digital Channel" Search on the TV ( Menu) ?


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## Rasputin13 (Oct 24, 2006)

DougRuss said:


> Have you done a "Digital Channel" Search on the TV ( Menu) ?


Yep. Just the 1 (ch. 2) comes up.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rasputin13 said:


> Yep. Just the 1 (ch. 2) comes up.


Perhaps this was already suggested:

Have you confirmed that the TV is configured for OTA versus cable? If it is set for cable, you probably wouldn't see any UHF channels.


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## Rasputin13 (Oct 24, 2006)

harsh said:


> Perhaps this was already suggested:
> 
> Have you confirmed that the TV is configured for OTA versus cable? If it is set for cable, you probably wouldn't see any UHF channels.


Holy S**t!

I love you, and I feel a bit like an idiot (although in my defense the "Cable = Off" setting was in a different menu from the digital channel setup). Thank you so much, and I hope this at least provided some entertainment for the rest of you.

Harsh, I owe you a beer next time I'm in Salem.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Good tip, *harsh*! :up:

*Rasputin13*, congrats on finding the source of your problem. Your persistence here
is a lesson for all of us. I'm sure that many of us who have followed this thread have
either learned from your experience or were reminded that sometimes we need to
check the basics first.

Since you're buying, you might also want to give a nod to *trapper* from NC who, on
11/25, also suggested that you...


trapper said:


> "...Check that TV is in Off-Air/Antenna mode, not Cable mode."


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

When I was in the satellite business in Minnesnowta I had a customer who called me up at least twice a year for the same problem. I would try to explain to them over the phone what to do, but they didn't want to mess with it and would simply pay for a service call for me to come over and push the button on the front of their television. It was sort of getting an annuity payment that I could always count on. :lol:


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## Rasputin13 (Oct 24, 2006)

Nick said:


> Good tip, *harsh*! :up:
> 
> *Rasputin13*, congrats on finding the source of your problem. Your persistence here
> is a lesson for all of us. I'm sure that many of us who have followed this thread have
> ...


My bad -- thanks to you too Trapper, I owe you one as well. Although that will now involve coast jumping.

Regarding the basics, I guess I just assumed the tv was in the correct mode b/c I was able to get something off the antenna. I assume cable is transmitted at a frequency in the vhf band, thus explaining the ability to grab vhf, but not uhf, from the antenna while in "cable" mode?

In any event, I am elated. Now if D* will release the OTA enabling software nationally . . . . But that's a topic for another thread and another day I guess.

Thanks again.


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## MIKE0616 (Dec 13, 2006)

Rasputin13 said:


> My bad -- thanks to you too Trapper, I owe you one as well. Although that will now involve coast jumping.
> 
> Regarding the basics, I guess I just *assumed the tv was in the correct mode *b/c I was able to get something off the antenna. I assume cable is transmitted at a frequency in the vhf band, thus explaining the ability to grab vhf, but not uhf, from the antenna while in "cable" mode?
> 
> ...


You can rest assured you are not the 1st and surely will not be the last to make that assumption. On my HDTV, it has 2 antenna connections and I once moved the cable accidentally to the cable input from the OTA input. Drove me nuts until I realized what I had done and changed the hookup. 

Hang around in these forums so maybe you can help others out, now that you are an experienced installer!

-Mike


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