# New MacBook is undesirable!!



## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

What the hell....
The new macbook has no firewire port at all, this is horse crap for video and sound editing... 
Mac screwed that one over..
I want one but with no firewire i wont buy one
I think they want you to spend another $1500 and get a macbook pro


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## djrobx (Jan 27, 2009)

I don't think Macbooks are targeted at professional AV people. Most things can be done with USB2 these days, and Apple is not one to leave "legacy" ports lying around. PC laptops rarely have firewire ports but somehow people have managed.

I don't know how you can do any sort of video work with those awful Macbook screens anyway. They're so vertically angle sensitive that there's no one angle that you can see blacks correctly - at best the bottom half of the screen is washed out and the top is beginning to invert. I bought one, loved it, but had to return it over that issue - I couldn't deal.

The Air's screen is the same size and resolution but is goregous in comparison.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

lol, that is funny that they dropped firewire.

Firewire is far from legacy, it was the competitor to USB in many ways. Apple has long been behind firewire over USB....that is also why it is an issue for many Apple users, many devices are firewire besides just video editing (external drives, card readers, accessories, etc.)


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

djrobx said:


> i don't think macbooks are targeted at professional av people. Most things can be done with usb2 these days, and apple is not one to leave "legacy" ports lying around. Pc laptops rarely have firewire ports but somehow people have managed.
> 
> I don't know how you can do any sort of video work with those awful macbook screens anyway. They're so vertically angle sensitive that there's no one angle that you can see blacks correctly - at best the bottom half of the screen is washed out and the top is beginning to invert. I bought one, loved it, but had to return it over that issue - i couldn't deal.
> 
> The air's screen is the same size and resolution but is goregous in comparison.


thats bs firewire legacy??? Runs double the speed of usb and many ways only way to capture video from a dv camera!!!!!


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

satgeek550 said:


> I think they want you to spend another $1500 and get a macbook pro


Are you more than doubling the amount for effect, or because you didn't bother to research it first?



Grentz said:


> lol, that is funny that they dropped firewire.
> 
> Firewire is far from legacy, it was the competitor to USB in many ways. Apple has long been behind firewire over USB....that is also why it is an issue for many Apple users, many devices are firewire besides just video editing (external drives, card readers, accessories, etc.)


Very few devices are solely firewire these days... I would definitely consider it legacy... And considering Apple created the technology, I would think they would know when it was safe to drop support for it... :lol:


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

The only way to get DV off a camera is through firewire, all the new HD and SD cameras use Firewire and and many ext hd are using firewire bc of the high speed


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

satgeek550 said:


> The only way to get DV off a camera is through firewire, all the new HD and SD cameras use Firewire and and many ext hd are using firewire bc of the high speed


I just checked three big name high-definition camcorder manufactures, and all three had USB 2.0 outputs...


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

AirRocker said:


> I just checked three big name high-definition camcorder manufactures, and all three had USB 2.0 outputs...


Yeah for still shots any that use standard DV tapes use firewire


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

New HPs have firewire,esata,and usb


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

houskamp said:


> New HPs have firewire,esata,and usb


My HP Laptop has firewire on it less than 2 months old


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

satgeek550 said:


> Yeah for still shots any that use standard DV tapes use firewire


Could be... The ones I checked have HDDs though...


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

I also just checked with canon and panasonic they all use firewire for capturing video and usb for still shots


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

houskamp said:


> New HPs have firewire,esata,and usb


Too bad it runs Windows...


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## Hansen (Jan 1, 2006)

FWIW, I have a Panasonic HD 1080P video camcorder and it uses USB2 for its connection to download video footage.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

satgeek550 said:


> I also just checked with canon and panasonic they all use firewire for capturing video and usb for still shots


Link?


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=175&modelid=14061#ModelTechSpecsAct

This is canons low end pro camera and only 1394 and no usb


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

satgeek550 said:


> http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=175&modelid=14061#ModelTechSpecsAct
> 
> This is canons low end pro camera and only 1394 and no usb


It seems that most _consumer_ camcorders now have HDDs and have USB 2.0 outputs...

I also don't know that I would be buying the 'low end' Macbook if I owned a camera like that... :grin:


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Nevertheless, once USB 3.0 comes out, all of this will be "moo".


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

AirRocker said:


> It seems that most _consumer_ camcorders now have HDDs and have USB 2.0 outputs...
> 
> I also don't know that I would be buying the 'low end' Macbook if I owned a camera like that... :grin:


Yes you have a point, I shoot video and still pics for high school football and other sports and thats my camera i use as well as a Nikon D300, im sorry i started such a heated argument (actually quite funny us nerds argue over)  I just wanted a mac, im thinking about building a "Hackintosh PC" and making it better than a MacPro


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

AirRocker said:


> Too bad it runs Windows...


 One more +


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## turey22 (Jul 30, 2007)

djrobx said:


> I don't think Macbooks are targeted at professional AV people. Most things can be done with USB2 these days, and Apple is not one to leave "legacy" ports lying around. PC laptops rarely have firewire ports but somehow people have managed.
> 
> I don't know how you can do any sort of video work with those awful Macbook screens anyway. They're so vertically angle sensitive that there's no one angle that you can see blacks correctly - at best the bottom half of the screen is washed out and the top is beginning to invert. I bought one, loved it, but had to return it over that issue - I couldn't deal.
> 
> The Air's screen is the same size and resolution but is goregous in comparison.


Are they all like that? My cousin has one and I dont think I have noticed that on his...Or maybe I just don't use it a lot.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> PC laptops rarely have firewire ports but somehow people have managed.


Actually, most PC laptops have Firewire these days. My video camera (Canon GL-2) is Firewire out. My audio preamps/AD converters are Firewire (Presonus Firestudio). My film chain that I use to convert 8mm film to DVD requires the Firewire out from the Canon camera. I had been considering buying an Apple laptop for setting up a locaton recording service. Apple is no longer a consideration.


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

turey22 said:


> Are they all like that? My cousin has one and I dont think I have noticed that on his...Or maybe I just don't use it a lot.


The previous generation has Firewire the new ones that came out like a month ago dont


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## turey22 (Jul 30, 2007)

AirRocker said:


> Nevertheless, once USB 3.0 comes out, all of this will be "moo".


When will that be?


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Richard King said:


> Actually, most PC laptops have Firewire these days. My video camera (Canon GL-2) is Firewire out. My audio preamps/AD converters are Firewire (Presonus Firestudio). My film chain that I use to convert 8mm film to DVD requires the Firewire out from the Canon camera. I had been considering buying an Apple laptop for setting up a locaton recording service. Apple is no longer a consideration.


Because their low-end laptop doesn't cater to your high-end equipment???

This is a consumer grade, entry level laptop... Not one for A/V professionals...


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

turey22 said:


> When will that be?


Last I read, sometime next year...


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

personaly a lowend machine should have more legacy ports.. especialy since the buyers are more likely to have older equipment (like my sony camcorder.. firewire video/usb stills)


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Too bad Apple does not give you a choice. Pros do not always want a huge laptop...and truth be told there is not that much difference as far as power and such that size would dictate. They can still fit that power and those features into the smaller form factor. Its not like the Macbook has a super thrifty price tag either. Once you get outside of the Apple world you see how it is to come up with the size that fits you and fit the power into it, not be told to be a "Pro" you must buy the bigger, more expensive, Macbook "Pro".

Almost none of the video cameras can output/transfer the video via USB except for the ones with HDDs, they almost all do it via Firewire. These are consumer devices, low end so to speak in your terms. The USB is just for the card reader/stillshot side of things.

One final point, Apple did not create IEEE 1394 (which is firewire) on their own, they made a lot of contributions and were a big promoter of it, but so were a few other large companies like TI, Sony, IBM, and others. Its also funny to remove it as firewire is still in competition with USB and continues to work on new specs and versions of it for the future (the latest version was just released in 2007!).

I dont like this blindly sticking up for Apple (who is known to play games with their proprietary connections on their devices). If it was Microsoft, it would be saying how horrible they are, how could they do this, etc....Apple should be held to the same standard.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Grentz said:


> I dont like this blindly sticking up for Apple (who is known to play games with their proprietary connections on their devices). If it was Microsoft, it would be saying how horrible they are, how could they do this, etc....Apple should be held to the same standard.


Microsoft sucks... That's why people talk bad about Microsoft... :lol:

Apple has their flaws... I just don't see this as a big deal... You're talking about their lowest end laptop, that is missing one older style connection, that isn't even used in newer devices... What's the big deal?? :whatdidid


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## Hansen (Jan 1, 2006)

AirRocker said:


> Microsoft sucks... That's why people talk bad about Microsoft... :lol:
> 
> Apple has their flaws... I just don't see this as a big deal... You're talking about their lowest end laptop, that is missing one older style connection, that isn't even used in newer devices... What's the big deal?? :whatdidid


It's odd how this has turned to a comparison of an OS developer (Microsoft) to a hardware manufacturer (Apple). Seems like we're mixing apples and windows. It might make more sense to compare PC manufacturers such as Sony with Apple's manufacturing.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Hansen said:


> It's odd how this has turned to a comparison of an OS developer (Microsoft) to a hardware manufacturer (Apple). Seems like we're mixing apples and windows. It might make more sense to compare PC manufacturers such as Sony with Apple's manufacturing.


I didn't start it... :sure: ... but I agree...


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

But I want to clear up some things once and for all as far as the state of camcorders goes these days.

DV and HDV use Firewire to import Video. DV and HDV are a dead/dying format. I hate to see it as I just bought a Sony HDV camcorder less than a year ago and love it but this is a fact. Go into any Bestbuy or any other big electronics retailer and you will be VERY hard pressed to find an HDV or DV camcorder on the shelves. 

They are all hard drive or flash drive based systems that use USB 2.0 as their video import system. I preferred HDV as the maximum bit rate is 30% higher than the solid state systems that must compress the video in order to cram more onto the drive. Tapes are cheap, last forever and I love them but you probably won't be able to buy a taped based camcorder by this time next year.

The Macbook is a great little machine but its just an entry level laptop. You want Firewire you will have to pony up the big bucks for a Macbook Pro if you want an Apple product.

And don't complain about the price of Apple products. You get what you pay for and that includes Apple. You pay more upfront, but like a Honda etc it will depreciate at a slower rate and be worth twice what a comparable PC product would be worth after 2 years.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

ibglowin said:


> The Macbook is a great little machine but its just an entry level laptop. You want Firewire you will have to pony up the big bucks for a Macbook Pro if you want an Apple product.


If you want an Apple /laptop/, that is ...

The Mac Mini has FireWire 800.
The iMac has FireWire 800.

Both would be "entry level" machines ...

The *only* Apple machine that doesn't is the current-generation Macbook. Your guess is as good as mine as to why, but I suspect they just simply ran out of room on the mainboard in the laptop to host the separate FW800 controller. Or it's an expen$ive chip (at least in manufacturing terms).

Especially since the same base chipset is used in the iMac, which has FW800.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

AirRocker said:


> Apple has their flaws... I just don't see this as a big deal... You're talking about their lowest end laptop, that is missing one older style connection, that isn't even used in newer devices... What's the big deal?? :whatdidid


The big deal is that their lowest end laptop is priced quite high in the market and should have features as such.

Sad thing is my laptop has the features of a Macbook Pro, yet is priced and sized like a Macbook....that is my problem with the Macbook being labeled low end.



Hansen said:


> It's odd how this has turned to a comparison of an OS developer (Microsoft) to a hardware manufacturer (Apple). Seems like we're mixing apples and windows. It might make more sense to compare PC manufacturers such as Sony with Apple's manufacturing.


I agree, it is stupid.



AirRocker said:


> I didn't start it... :sure: ... but I agree...


You actually did bring it up. I like you AirRocker...dont go all crazy drone Apple fanboy on me! :grin:


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

ibglowin said:


> But I want to clear up some things once and for all as far as the state of camcorders goes these days.
> 
> DV and HDV use Firewire to import Video. DV and HDV are a dead/dying format. I hate to see it as I just bought a Sony HDV camcorder less than a year ago and love it but this is a fact. Go into any Bestbuy or any other big electronics retailer and you will be VERY hard pressed to find an HDV or DV camcorder on the shelves.
> 
> ...


You're comparing depreciation rates on computers? That's really kind of ridiculous.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

Ken S said:


> You're comparing depreciation rates on computers? That's really kind of ridiculous.


No, it isn't, not at all, actually.

My Power Mac G5, which is over 5 years old, still holds value. I can sell it today for over $500.

That's significant - what that does is protect my /investment/.


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## Hansen (Jan 1, 2006)

dmurphy said:


> No, it isn't, not at all, actually.
> 
> My Power Mac G5, which is over 5 years old, still holds value. I can sell it today for over $500.
> 
> That's significant - what that does is protect my /investment/.


The question is really what is your net loss after taking into account the current fair market value and original purchase price, which tend to much higher for Apple products. For example, let's say you purchased your Power Mac G5 for $3000 5 years ago and today it's worth $500. Your net loss over 5 years is $2500. Then, let's say someone purchased a PC at the same time, but with a relatively equivalent performing PC hardware being much cheaper than Apple hardware, the purchase price was likely $1500. Today, that PC might not be worth more than $100 and probably much less...perhaps $0. But, the net loss is $1400 (or $1500 if it has no value). Thus, the PC buyer is actually better off from a financial standpoint.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

ibglowin said:


> But I want to clear up some things once and for all as far as the state of camcorders goes these days.
> 
> DV and HDV use Firewire to import Video. DV and HDV are a dead/dying format. I hate to see it as I just bought a Sony HDV camcorder less than a year ago and love it but this is a fact. Go into any Bestbuy or any other big electronics retailer and you will be VERY hard pressed to find an HDV or DV camcorder on the shelves.
> 
> ...


Good post and agree on all counts.

I still have the white entry level Macbook I purchased last year which has a firewire port. I have used it to edit HD video from my tape based HDV Sony camcorder. It works fine and I have no reason to "upgrade" to the latest version of Macbooks.

I know when I'm ready to get my Macbook pro, I will get a good price for my white Macbook. The resell value on Apple computers are pretty darn good considering the economy.

I'm going to hold on to my HDV camcorder for as long as I can. It's almost 3 years old and the PQ is still outstanding compared to some of the new hard media based camcorders.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Hansen said:


> The question is really what is your net loss after taking into account the current fair market value and original purchase price, which tend to much higher for Apple products. For example, let's say you purchased your Power Mac G5 for $3000 5 years ago and today it's worth $500. Your net loss over 5 years is $2500. Then, let's say someone purchased a PC at the same time, but with a relatively equivalent performing PC hardware being much cheaper than Apple hardware, the purchase price was likely $1500. Today, that PC might not be worth more than $100 and probably much less...perhaps $0. But, the net loss is $1400 (or $1500 if it has no value). Thus, the PC buyer is actually better off from a financial standpoint.


That really depends. Usually with Apple hardware, you have very minimal upgrade requirements over the years. How many times over 5 years do you think you would have to upgrade a PC (more memory, hard drive etc) just so you can run the latest operating system or software? Just in the span of 2 years, I had to throw money at my PC's hardware several times just to keep up with the software.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Grentz said:


> I like you AirRocker...dont go all crazy drone Apple fanboy on me! :grin:


That's what I do... 

No hard feelings...


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## turey22 (Jul 30, 2007)

Chris Blount said:


> That really depends. Usually with Apple hardware, you have very minimal upgrade requirements over the years. How many times over 5 years do you think you would have to upgrade a PC (more memory, hard drive etc) just so you can run the latest operating system or software? Just in the span of 2 years, I had to throw money at my PC's hardware several times just to keep up with the software.


But wouldnt you spend more money with Macs for software. If you want CS4 on a older Mac would you be able to install it on it or would you need to upgrade your system cause of the kernal?

Just asking cause dont know much about kernals. Maybe its a dumb question but I had to get it out the way


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

Chris Blount said:


> That really depends. Usually with Apple hardware, you have very minimal upgrade requirements over the years. How many times over 5 years do you think you would have to upgrade a PC (more memory, hard drive etc) just so you can run the latest operating system or software? Just in the span of 2 years, I had to throw money at my PC's hardware several times just to keep up with the software.


... bingo.

That Power Mac G5 I was referencing that's over 5 years old? It's exactly the way I bought it - same disks, memory, etc.

Both depreciation and usefulness have a slower rate of decay for Macs than PCs.


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

Depends I think as long as you meet the space req, ram, and process speed you should be fine... but i could be wrong



turey22 said:


> But wouldnt you spend more money with Macs for software. If you want CS4 on a older Mac would you be able to install it on it or would you need to upgrade your system cause of the kernal?
> 
> Just asking cause dont know much about kernals. Maybe its a dumb question but I had to get it out the way


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## mutelight (Oct 6, 2008)

Richard King said:


> Actually, most PC laptops have Firewire these days. My video camera (Canon GL-2) is Firewire out. My audio preamps/AD converters are Firewire (Presonus Firestudio). My film chain that I use to convert 8mm film to DVD requires the Firewire out from the Canon camera. I had been considering buying an Apple laptop for setting up a locaton recording service. Apple is no longer a consideration.


My Digi 002 Rack, HDDs, control surface and video camera all use Firewire so I very much have a reason to get a platform which supported it, which is why I avoided this generation of MacBook and got a MacBook Pro instead. I had a Black MacBook last generation (with firewire) and ended up giving it to a family member and realized that they stripped that port on the current generation of MacBooks but I was looking to upgrade. Anyway, both MacBook Pro models have Firewire 800, just avoid the regular MacBook and Air.

It is lame how Apple will frequently take a step backwards or sideways (like the displayports they use) to simply make some extra money and things more proprietary but they know that people would defend/support them in virtually anything they do. Don't get me wrong I have a Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, and an iPhone but there is no doubt that while they deliver solid products they sure as hell know how to rip people off in certain regards.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

turey22 said:


> But wouldnt you spend more money with Macs for software. If you want CS4 on a older Mac would you be able to install it on it or would you need to upgrade your system cause of the kernal?
> 
> Just asking cause dont know much about kernals. Maybe its a dumb question but I had to get it out the way


No, why would I spend more money?

I don't have to buy Virus protection; I don't have to buy Spyware protection.
I already have great photo, video, and music management tools that came with my Mac.

I can install Photoshop CS4 on my 8+ year old Power Mac G4 if I wanted - no issues.


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

Just FYI macs are not immune to spyware
and also that doesnt mean that viruses are around for macs either, they just have a much harder time creating them.



dmurphy said:


> No, why would I spend more money?
> 
> I don't have to buy Virus protection; I don't have to buy Spyware protection.
> I already have great photo, video, and music management tools that came with my Mac.
> ...


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dmurphy said:


> No, it isn't, not at all, actually.
> 
> My Power Mac G5, which is over 5 years old, still holds value. I can sell it today for over $500.
> 
> That's significant - what that does is protect my /investment/.


Computers are not investments...they are tools. They either do what you need or they don't. You might claim the Mac does something for less money or is a better value...but it's really not an investment and really not the religion some would make them out to be.

I have plenty of Macs that no one wants to buy and have no value. Mac SE, older iMacs and a color Mac portable. Make an offer they're your's. I also have a closet full of Apple Newtons for sale.


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## mutelight (Oct 6, 2008)

Ken S said:


> Computers are not investments...they are tools. They either do what you need or they don't. You might claim the Mac does something for less money or is a better value...but it's really not an investment and really not the religion some would make them out to be.
> 
> I have plenty of Macs that no one wants to buy and have no value. Mac SE, older iMacs and a color Mac portable. Make an offer they're your's. I also have a closet full of Apple Newtons for sale.


That is where I am going to have to disagree with you. Replace all of that dated hardware that you are talking about with absolutely any dated hardware that has ever been made, the same rules apply. His point was that, to an extent, they do hold their value a bit longer. For example, I purchased my Mac Pro roughly 4 years ago, it is a dual processor with two cores on each processor. (Essentially a server grade workstation) Currently I have 8GBs of RAM installed which is the only upgrade I have done to the computer which I purchased 3rd party for cheap and I don't even come close to stressing it in a Pro Tools LE environment that is heavily reliant on the CPU power to handle all the DSP. Video encoding is still quite fast, I typically have PT, AE, and FCP open simultaneously with virtually no tax on the foreground application, etc.

My point is, if you purchase wisely, they _are_ investments and considering how demanding my work is in regards to audio and video manipulation and the speed that things can be processed and rendered on a 4 year old machine, I think it is money well spent. Now fast forward 5 or so more years, then of course it will be dated.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

satgeek550 said:


> Just FYI macs are not immune to spyware
> and also that doesnt mean that viruses are around for macs either, they just have a much harder time creating them.


That is true. But so far you have to go to pirate sites and porn sites to find even one that will harm you. And even then you have to be terminally stupid as it has to have your permission to install itself.

As of today, there are no viruses for the mac and all the anti-virus software for it looks for windows viruses.

That could change at any time, but the track record is pretty solid.

I've been running my macs naked for quite a long time with never a malware issue.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I changed the title of this thread... I'd prefer you not use the term "sucks" in a thread title, although it's ok in the body of the thread. 

As for my opinion... it sucks :lol:

(just kidding, I'm sure it's a fine machine if it's what you want to use.)


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

Sorry but that is just the first word that came to mind.. 



dmurphy said:


> No, why would I spend more money?
> 
> I don't have to buy Virus protection; I don't have to buy Spyware protection.
> I already have great photo, video, and music management tools that came with my Mac.
> ...





Stuart Sweet said:


> I changed the title of this thread... I'd prefer you not use the term "sucks" in a thread title, although it's ok in the body of the thread.
> 
> As for my opinion... it sucks :lol:


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## Hansen (Jan 1, 2006)

Chris Blount said:


> That really depends. Usually with Apple hardware, you have very minimal upgrade requirements over the years. How many times over 5 years do you think you would have to upgrade a PC (more memory, hard drive etc) just so you can run the latest operating system or software? Just in the span of 2 years, I had to throw money at my PC's hardware several times just to keep up with the software.


But, here we are mixing up the variables to alter the result. We're not talking about changing OS's along the way. We're talking about initial hardware cost and residual hardware cost after 5 years and leaving the hardware intact. I purchased a Dell with XP on it, ran it for more than 5 years on XP...no HDD upgrades, no video card upgrades, etc. I would not upgrade that one because it would not run Vista well (would do okay with Windows 7). I'm sure there are Macs out there that ran one Apple OS but could not, without major hardware changes, run the most recent Apple OS. Nonetheless, for the sake of argument, let's look at the variable you throw in about added hardware upgrades to run a current OS. While I agree that recently (with the addition of Vista), a PC user might have to make some upgrades to the PC to make it work on a newer OS like Vista. However, that PC now has modern hardware (at a much less cost than upgrading Apple hardware) running a current OS and would now have more residual market value at the 5 year mark. Plus, given the low cost of PC hardware upgrades, I doubt you'll ever eat up that $$$ difference between an apple and PC. Apples are good computers and they have a place in the market but they undeniably cost more in the end to the consumer. Perhaps, for some, there is value in that additional cost but it's an added cost for the Apple purchaser...even if it does have some residual value.


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## itguy05 (Oct 24, 2007)

Hansen said:


> We're talking about initial hardware cost and residual hardware cost after 5 years and leaving the hardware intact. I purchased a Dell with XP on it, ran it for more than 5 years on XP...no HDD upgrades, no video card upgrades, etc.


I've got a Powerbook G4 1.67 that's coming up on 5 years old. Perusing Ebay it's worth about $500. It was $1999 new. So for $1500 I got 5 years use of it.



> However, that PC now has modern hardware (at a much less cost than upgrading Apple hardware) running a current OS and would now have more residual market value at the 5 year mark. Plus, given the low cost of PC hardware upgrades, I doubt you'll ever eat up that $$$ difference between an apple and PC. Apples are good computers and they have a place in the market but they undeniably cost more in the end to the consumer. Perhaps, for some, there is value in that additional cost but it's an added cost for the Apple purchaser...even if it does have some residual value.


That is simply not true. Mac's are more expensive because they typically use better components. Faster CPU's, more cache, faster FSB, etc. There are many differences in the CPU's today and the on-chip cache, speed, etc. If you look around on an apples to apples comparison with other vendors, the price of a Mac is not that much worse than of a Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.

People love to throw out the Macs cost more argument. But they conveniently forget that HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. all make more machines than the junk at the low end you see for $499. And there are also PC makers that sell very expensive machines. And people buy them.

They also tend to forget that if you price out another comparable computer with similar parts there is negligible difference in cost. When I was doing the PC thing, I never purchased low end junk so for me the "sticker shock" of a Mac was not a shock at all. I had too much junk not last or be reliable.

Apple's problem is they don't compete on the low end of the scale. Nothing wrong with that - buyers of Apple gear know they are getting mid-top end machines that will last.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

I was thinking the same thing. One day I did a direct hardware comparison between a macbook and a Dell laptop and there was only a difference in price of about $50.

It's true though. Apple does not compete in the low end market. They have said it themselves. That's why people get upset about their hardware being expensive.



itguy05 said:


> I've got a Powerbook G4 1.67 that's coming up on 5 years old. Perusing Ebay it's worth about $500. It was $1999 new. So for $1500 I got 5 years use of it.
> 
> That is simply not true. Mac's are more expensive because they typically use better components. Faster CPU's, more cache, faster FSB, etc. There are many differences in the CPU's today and the on-chip cache, speed, etc. If you look around on an apples to apples comparison with other vendors, the price of a Mac is not that much worse than of a Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.
> 
> ...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Chris Blount said:


> I was thinking the same thing. One day I did a direct hardware comparison between a macbook and a Dell laptop and there was only a difference in price of about $50.
> 
> It's true though. Apple does not compete in the low end market. They have said it themselves. That's why people get upset about their hardware being expensive.


In addition to expensive hardware, they also have a reputation to work to perpetually fix flaws in their hardware, not always succeeding.

The original IPOD still has 7 bugs in it (to this day) that never got fixed. Apple's solution - come out and sell a new IPOD. That was 4 generations ago.

That's why I'm an admitted Apple biggot and will never buy their products.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

mutelight said:


> That is where I am going to have to disagree with you. Replace all of that dated hardware that you are talking about with absolutely any dated hardware that has ever been made, the same rules apply. His point was that, to an extent, they do hold their value a bit longer. For example, I purchased my Mac Pro roughly 4 years ago, it is a dual processor with two cores on each processor. (Essentially a server grade workstation) Currently I have 8GBs of RAM installed which is the only upgrade I have done to the computer which I purchased 3rd party for cheap and I don't even come close to stressing it in a Pro Tools LE environment that is heavily reliant on the CPU power to handle all the DSP. Video encoding is still quite fast, I typically have PT, AE, and FCP open simultaneously with virtually no tax on the foreground application, etc.
> 
> My point is, if you purchase wisely, they _are_ investments and considering how demanding my work is in regards to audio and video manipulation and the speed that things can be processed and rendered on a 4 year old machine, I think it is money well spent. Now fast forward 5 or so more years, then of course it will be dated.


An investment to me is something that is going to go up in value. No computer qualifies...they're all "consumer non-durables".


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

You probably should take a look at your other investments lately!! However, you did say 'going to go up' !


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

My Apple computers have had a much less rate of depreciation this past year or so than my 401k has that's for sure.........


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## Hansen (Jan 1, 2006)

The fact that you are comparing the Apple to something that dropped more than 50% in a 3 to 4 month period really does not bode well for the Apple has better value argument. 



ibglowin said:


> My Apple computers have had a much less rate of depreciation this past year or so than my 401k has that's for sure.........


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