# New Big HD DVR development that will rock my world



## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

As an occasional reader of this forum I'm always fascinated by those of you "in the know". With this said I ponder what will be the next giant step forward for DirecTV's HD DVR & HD service? I've stayed with my faithful 20-700 for one very simple reason, it's reliable.

With this said I ponder what will be the next giant step forward that will rock my world?

Being a 14 year DTV veteran and the infamous early DTV HD DVR troubles I never again want to be used like someone in a "everybodies blind" drug trail program.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Follow the word - HR34 ...


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

1953 said:


> With this said I ponder what will be the next giant step forward that will rock my world?


The user interface will be revamped in HD later this year. Along with other goodies.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

Some kind of obvious guesses at what's coming "soon" in a "super-DVR" experience, but some of these are also coming to a DVR near you. 


HD GUI (as mentioned)

Centralized recording via one box with 4 or 6 tuners with distributed "dumb" client receivers used for playback

Picture in Picture 

Interactive viewing experiences and receiver control via web or dedicated apps on smart phones and tablets

DVR-to-device streaming, including copying recordings to playback devices for offline viewing


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> Interactive viewing experiences and receiver control via web or dedicated apps on smart phones and tablets


We already have the receiver control part of this.


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## KoRn (Oct 21, 2008)

Being able to record up to 4 shows at once is a good start. I think U-verse has that right now.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

KoRn said:


> Being able to record up to 4 shows at once is a good start. I think U-verse has that right now.


Not in HD. Only 2 or 3 depending on area.

I can record 10 shows now. You can't do that on U-Verse.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

KoRn said:


> Being able to record up to 4 shows at once is a good start. I think U-verse has that right now.


U-verse is bandwidth limited, so only as many streams as your bandwidth can handle. At least with sat, you just add another receiver and you have 2 more tuners...with really no limit.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

Seems to be numerous issues with U-Verse TV in our neighborhood.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

1953 said:


> As an occasional reader of this forum I'm always fascinated by those of you "in the know". With this said I ponder what will be the next giant step forward for DirecTV's HD DVR & HD service? I've stayed with my faithful 20-700 for one very simple reason, it's reliable.
> 
> With this said I ponder what will be the next giant step forward that will rock my world?
> 
> Being a 14 year DTV veteran and the infamous early DTV HD DVR troubles I never again want to be used like someone in a "everybodies blind" drug trail program.


Depends how many TV's you normally watch. If more than one, MRV has "rocked my world" for over a year, and it's not a DVR upgrade, but a switch upgrade and some adapters for older DVR's. With 2-3 DVR's, you can now record any show on any box and watch it anywhere. And no worry about conflicts, because you now have 4-6 tuners available for a given time slot.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> We already have the receiver control part of this.


We have official receiver control via iPad but to my knowledge only hobbyist receiver control via the web. I anticipate DIRECTV will eventually have an official web solution for controlling receivers, so those without tablets (and smartphones) can enjoy the same benefits. It would only take some updates to DIRECTV.com ...


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> We have official receiver control via iPad but to my knowledge only hobbyist receiver control via the web. I anticipate DIRECTV will eventually have an official web solution for controlling receivers, so those without tablets (and smartphones) can enjoy the same benefits. It would only take some updates to DIRECTV.com ...


The hobbyist control is pretty good, IMO. I use http://sillysot.com/dtvtest/ quite often.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

sigma1914 said:


> The hobbyist control is pretty good, IMO. I use http://sillysot.com/dtvtest/ quite often.


Yup! I've used that one myself! 

I wonder if we'll have official IP Control before or after the HD GUI... my guess is at the same time or after, but not before.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

KoRn said:


> Being able to record up to 4 shows at once is a good start. I think U-verse has that right now.


I think that's the HD stream limit. If you're recording four things in HD you can't watch anything in HD. This Link has some good info on Uverse stream limitations.

I have to believe that whatever it next will still operate somewhat the same as the rest of the DirecTV world. I would think you can watch an HD recording regardless of how many recordings are in progress.

Right now I'm limited to recording 6 things in HD and watching three recordings only because I'm limited to eight tuners and only have three TV's. MRV is pretty awesome and I'd bet the current capabilities will remain the same on future hardware. 

Mike


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

DarkSkies said:


> We have official receiver control via iPad but to my knowledge only hobbyist receiver control via the web. I anticipate DIRECTV will eventually have an official web solution for controlling receivers, so those without tablets (and smartphones) can enjoy the same benefits. It would only take some updates to DIRECTV.com ...


If D* ported the iPad app to a Java applet, they would have a platform independent solution for real computers with minimal effort...


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> Yup! I've used that one myself!
> 
> I wonder if we'll have official IP Control before or after the HD GUI... my guess is at the same time or after, but not before.


We have official IP Control now.


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## oldfantom (Mar 13, 2006)

Steve said:


> Depends how many TV's you normally watch. If more than one, MRV has "rocked my world" for over a year, and it's not a DVR upgrade, but a switch upgrade and some adapters for older DVR's. With 2-3 DVR's, you can now record any show on any box and watch it anywhere. And no worry about conflicts, because you now have 4-6 tuners available for a given time slot.


Ditto for me on this one. MRV is great except for the fact that I always want to call it MVR in the forums.

I am not sure how excited I am about the HD GUI. I don't have huge issues with the current GUI. Frankly, the GUI with all the previous DVRs before the HR24 was so slow, it makes me fear for the hours I will wait for the GUI to load on the new GUI. But I know nothing about it, so those fears have no foundation in fact, only in history.

The 6 tuner DVR with dumb clients sounds good, unless you have lost a hard drive in a DVR. I still need to pull the last three episodes of monk from netflix. I am not sure I want all my eggs in one prone to failure basket.

Interactive experiences on the TV will likely lead to divorce. My wife might finally take the remote from me if I am constantly fiddling with interactive stuff while she is trying to watch TV.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> Some kind of obvious guesses at what's coming "soon" in a "super-DVR" experience, but some of these are also coming to a DVR near you.
> 
> HD GUI (as mentioned)
> 
> ...


Centralized recording: Hmmm... so one hard drive dieing can take out all of the recordings.
I suspect that the current MRV is a stopgap measure. I believe Dishnetwork and DirecTV are both going to the centralized multi-tuner for MRV.

PIP, since I'm not a sports fiend the only use I have for PIP is to watch my computer and TV at the same time. That way I can swap back and forth as needed.

Three or four tuners per TV I can see a occasional use for.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> We have official IP Control now.


Yes, via the iPad app. However, in context and for clarity, I was referring to remote receiver control via a web app brought to us by DIRECTV.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

1953 said:


> . . . . I ponder what will be the next giant step forward for DirecTV's HD DVR & HD service? . . . . :


Well the most recent was MRV. It still in it's baby steps. Hopefully it will be enhance soon.

H34 is next. It's a super DVR, but I wouldn't call that a great advancement.

Now if they could figure out an end to rain fade. Or high-speed Internet equal to FiOS. Now those would be giant steps forward.


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## Guest (May 16, 2011)

Built in Google 2.0 with Android Honeycomb 3.01.


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## Webini (Feb 4, 2007)

^^^^^^

Yuk


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> Yes, via the iPad app. However, in context and for clarity, I was referring to remote receiver control via a web app brought to us by DIRECTV.


No, not just via the iPad app. There's a whole set of functions you can use to write your own app.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

It makes sense for business purposes that "new" features should mimic the existing features of competitors whose features are still missing here at home, so for that reason I would predict that there will be a "stream recorded DVR video to iPad/iPod/iPhone/Android via local wifi" feature soon.

Since the remote control codes are so complicated for DTV DVRs that none of the 3rd-party remotes have a real good handle on that, or at least when there are multiple boxes in the same room, any feature that lets you use a phone or iPad as a remote would have to probably be developed with the input of those who developed the system for DTV originally.

One wishlist feature that I have not run across yet would be to extend the features of the highly-touted yet half-baked and ironically-named "Smart Search" to allow the user to also google the playlist of existing recordings. IOW, If I enter "J-U-S...", about then up should pop not only scheduled airings of programs but also should appear the three remaining unwatched episodes of _Justified_ that are sitting on my HDD. That would make navigating the PL a lot more friendly.

If they did that then it might even begin to earn the name.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> No, not just via the iPad app. There's a whole set of functions you can use to write your own app.


Yes, I know. I've already referred to the hobbyist web solutions. I'm saying we haven't yet seen an official web solution from DIRECTV, where any customer can open any browser, device independent, and control their receivers using the official DIRECTV web solution. I'm also saying that I think this functionality is on the way. I expect it to be integrated into DIRECTV.com at some point, so customers can login and view playlists, manage series links, etc. All via an official web site experience provided by DIRECTV...


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> Yes, I know. I've already referred to the hobbyist web solutions. I'm saying we haven't yet seen an official web solution from DIRECTV, where any customer can open any browser, device independent, and control their receivers using the official DIRECTV web solution. I'm also saying that I think this functionality is on the way. I expect it to be integrated into DIRECTV.com at some point, so customers can login and view playlists, manage series links, etc. All via an official web site experience provided by DIRECTV...


I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> I'm saying we haven't yet seen an official web solution from DIRECTV, where any customer can open any browser, device independent, and control their receivers using the official DIRECTV web solution [...]


+1. More DirecTV customers have PCs than tablets, so it puzzles me why DirecTV is lagging behind competitors in this area. In my neck of the woods, both Cablevision and FiOS offer WAN-based DVR management. I've also seen the Comcast TiVO offering. I'd love a comparable web UI to manage my HR's.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Didnt the Comcast xFinity thing just come out and is only available in very limited areas? I understand your point, but if it just came out, I mean someone has to have it first. D* can't be the leader in all things all the time..customers are way too cheap to pay for that kind of leading edge tech all the time.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> Didnt the Comcast xFinity thing just come out [...]


I first noticed it in the last summer/fall timeframe, so at least 9 months. My mom has had the FiOS web based manager for almost 2 years, now. I know, because I use it to program her DVR from my house.  No matter the timing, since there are more web users than iPad users, I wonder why DirecTV chose to do the iPad app first?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Steve said:


> I first saw it in the last summer/fall timeframe, so at least 9 months. My mom has had the FiOS web based manager for almost 2 years, now. I know, because I use it to program her DVR from my house.
> 
> No matter the timing, since there are more web users than iPad users, I wonder why DirecTV chose to do the iPad app first?


I'm really not sure why you guys think the iPad app is the only way to schedule a recording, it's not. We've been able to schedule recordings on directv.com for years now. You even get the guide and all online.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> I'm really not sure why you guys think the iPad app is the only way to schedule a recording, it's not. We've been able to schedule recordings on directv.com for years now. You even get the guild and all online.


It's not just about scheduling recordings.

It's managing the DVR. Being able to see the TDL, delete SL's, change SL priority, or delete recordings from the playlist or the TDL. That's what can be done with the TiVO, Verizon and Cablevision apps that I want to do with my HR's. Just me, tho. YMMV.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Steve said:


> It's managing the DVR. Being able to see the TDL, delete SL's, change SL priority, or delete recordings from the playlist or the TDL. That's what can be done with the TiVO, Verizon and Cablevision apps that I want to do with my HR's. Just me, tho. YMMV.


But all that can't be done with the iPad app so I don't see why everyone is complaining that the app can do something and you can't do the same from the web.

Yes, I know the app can list your recordings and you can start one from the app. And yes I know the app has an on screen remote control. However you guys aren't asking for that in the web app.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> But all that can't be done with the iPad app so I don't see why everyone is complaining that the app can do something and you can't do the same from the web


Correct. The discussion got disjointed somewhere. I guess I didn't read back far enough. I want DVR management.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Steve said:


> Correct. The discussion got disjointed somewhere. I guess I didn't read back far enough. I want DVR management.


It started with DarkSkies saying there was no Official IP Control and then saying there was no web based app, only the iPad app. My point is that there is a web app and it doesn't do too much less than the iPad app. And another point, IP Control has been official for quite some time.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> It started with DarkSkies saying there was no Official IP Control and then saying there was no web based app, only the iPad app. My point is that there is a web app and it doesn't do too much less than the iPad app. And another point, IP Control has been official for quite some time.


:lol: Something got lost in translation along the way...

What I'm suggesting we'll see someday is a website hosted by DIRECTV that any user can navigate to in any web browser, where the user will have full remote control of their receivers to manage their DVRs. I started out calling this an "Interactive viewing experiences and receiver control via web or dedicated apps on smart phones and tablets".

The iPad app lets you schedule recordings, view playlists, send remote commands, but the web site only lets you schedule recordings.

The only web apps I've seen for remote control, such as the sillysot one, are what I called hobbyist solutions, as they are not officially released from DIRECTV. There are even third-party apps showing up now in the Android Market for remotely controlling DVRs, including looking at playlists, but these are third-party solutions.

I think DIRECTV someday will officially provide this remote management capability via an update on DIRECTV.com, so that a user can log in view playlists, start playback on a specific DVR, create custom channel lineups, etc. As Steve mentioned earlier, there are many more PCs in use than tablets and smartphones, and many people do use DIRECTV.com already for paying bills, ordering PPV, and scheduling remote recordings. It's only natural to me that the functionality be extended.

RunnerFl, you mentioned there's a webapp that doesn't do much less than the iPad app - can you please share the URL?

Thanks.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> RunnerFl, you mentioned there's a webapp that doesn't do much less than the iPad app - can you please share the URL?


http://www.directv.com/


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> RunnerFl, you mentioned there's a webapp that doesn't do much less than the iPad app - can you please share the URL?


This app was designed for use inside a smartphone browser or iPod, but works inside a regular browser as well. The thread is here.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

Steve said:


> This app was designed for use inside a smartphone browser or iPod, but works inside a regular browser as well. The thread is here.


Thanks Steve, but I'm aware of sillysot and have even referenced it several times in this thread.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> http://www.directv.com/


Where on the DIRECTV.com web site can I view my playlist, setup Favorite Channel Lists, use remote control buttons (FF/REW/Play/Pause,etc), create a customized home screen, create a customized sports roster, and see what's playing now on my DVR?

When you said there's a webapp that "doesn't do much less than the iPad app", I was thinking you must have a site in mind something like sillysot, but never expected you to point to DIRECTV.com ...


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> Where on the DIRECTV.com web site can I view my playlist, setup Favorite Channel Lists, use remote control buttons (FF/REW/Play/Pause,etc), create a customized home screen, create a customized sports roster, and see what's playing now on my DVR?
> 
> When you said there's a webapp that "doesn't do much less than the iPad app", I was thinking you must have a site in mind something like sillysot, but never expected you to point to DIRECTV.com ...


You just really only read what you want to read don't you? I already said the website didn't have a way to view your playlist, play a recording or use your remote. It does have remote recording which is the only other function that the iPad app has to control your DVR. There's not much more to control your DVR that you can do with the iPad app.

A customized home screen, customized sports roster and customized channel panels don't control your DVR, they are just cosmetics for the iPad app.

I don't know about you but I don't want to sit there with my 17" laptop just to change channels or start recordings. If I didn't have an iPad I'd just use a remote control. Oh, and I don't even use my iPad's remote, I use my Harmony remote.

As I said before if you're waiting for a website where you can go to use as a remote to control your DVR, setup SL's, etc, don't hold your breath. Or if you really must have a website, which it appears you do, check into IP Control and write your own like others of us have.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> You just really only read what you want to read don't you?


I don't understand why you'd start your response this way, but I think I can ask you the same. If you read my posts and kept my responses in context, you'd see this all started with my thoughts that DIRECTV would provide an interactive experience via tablet apps and the web. 


> I already said the website didn't have a way to view your playlist, play a recording or use your remote.


Then how is DIRECTV.com a web app that "doesn't do much less than the iPad app"? I'm lost on that one.



> It does have remote recording which is the only other function that the iPad app has to control your DVR. There's not much more to control your DVR that you can do with the iPad app. A customized home screen, customized sports roster and customized channel panels don't control your DVR, they are just cosmetics for the iPad app.


Again, my posts have been about the interactive experience via a web app - for some reason you've just focused on the IP control portion. I want full series link management via the web, along with the other things I've mentioned. Not just being able to pause and play.



> I don't know about you but I don't want to sit there with my 17" laptop just to change channels or start recordings. If I didn't have an iPad I'd just use a remote control. Oh, and I don't even use my iPad's remote, I use my Harmony remote.


On a daily basis? Who would want to do that? However, having the option via a web site is a pure convenience, giving the ability to do what you want with your DVR even if you're not in front of it.



> As I said before if you're waiting for a website where you can go to use as a remote to control your DVR, setup SL's, etc, don't hold your breath.


DIRECTV is constantly introducing new features and wants to compete with other providers, who are starting to expand their own web sites to offer interactivity and DVR management. TiVo does it, Cablevision is expanding, Comcast, etc. I don't see why DIRECTV wouldn't do it as well.



> Or if you really must have a website, which it appears you do, check into IP Control and write your own like others of us have.


I sure could, but I'd rather DIRECTV do it.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> If you read my posts and kept my responses in context, you'd see this all started with my thoughts that DIRECTV would provide an interactive experience via tablet apps and the web.


And there is an interactive experience on the web at directv.com. It just doesn't do every single thing you want it to do. (I feel like a broken record)



DarkSkies said:


> Then how is DIRECTV.com a web app that "doesn't do much less than the iPad app"? I'm lost on that one.


Ok, last time... The iPad app allows you to search for shows, schedule recording of those shows, view playlists and play recordings from the list, and use a "remote" on your DVR. That is 4 things right??? At directv.com you can search for shows and schedule a recording of a show. That's 2 things right??? Do you get it now?? I hope so...



DarkSkies said:


> Again, my posts have been about the interactive experience via a web app - for some reason you've just focused on the IP control portion.


Because that is how you started out, proclaiming there is no "Official IP Control" and there is. Do you even know what IP Control is? IP Control is not an app in and of itself. IP Control is something that was given to us by DirecTV so that we could write our own stuff using what they provided. IP Control is not a promise of anything to come.



DarkSkies said:


> I want full series link management via the web, along with the other things I've mentioned. Not just being able to pause and play.


Series link management is not available anywhere but on your DVR and based upon how long we've been asking for series link management and haven't gotten it yet I bet we won't.



DarkSkies said:


> On a daily basis? Who would want to do that?


I don't know, why would you? You're the one that would apparently like that "feature".



DarkSkies said:


> DIRECTV is constantly introducing new features and wants to compete with other providers, who are starting to expand their own web sites to offer interactivity and DVR management. TiVo does it, Cablevision is expanding, Comcast, etc. I don't see why DIRECTV wouldn't do it as well.


DirecTV doesn't have to do everything that the competition does. If they did then DirecTV wouldn't exactly be unique now would they?



DarkSkies said:


> I sure could, but I'd rather DIRECTV do it.


Of course, you want everything you want and you want it handed to you now...


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

RunnerFL, it's fruitless to continue this exchange, as I believe you are purposely ignoring the context of my posts. This thread is about what's coming "next" and I'm positing that there will be an upgrade to DIRECTV.com that includes a full blown interactive experience, but you only want to focus on IP Control and the iPad app.

Have a great day.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> RunnerFL, it's fruitless to continue this exchange, as I believe you are purposely ignoring the context of my posts. This thread is about what's coming "next" and I'm positing that there will be an upgrade to DIRECTV.com that includes a full blown interactive experience, but you only want to focus on IP Control and the iPad app.
> 
> Have a great day.


And I'm telling you it's not happening any time soon but you don't want to listen.

This all started with you claiming IP Control was not "Official". Maybe you should read up on IP Control before you assume.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> This thread is about what's coming "next" and I'm positing that there will be an upgrade to DIRECTV.com that includes a full blown interactive experience


You're making this up. Don't post it as fact.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> And I'm telling you it's not happening any time soon but you don't want to listen.


My first reply to you, with quotes in context and relevant portions highlighted:



DarkSkies said:


> We have official receiver control via iPad *but to my knowledge only hobbyist receiver control via the web*. I anticipate DIRECTV will eventually have an official web solution for controlling receivers, so those without tablets (and smartphones) can enjoy the same benefits. It would only take some updates to DIRECTV.com ...





sigma1914 said:


> The hobbyist control is pretty good, IMO. I use http://sillysot.com/dtvtest/ quite often.





DarkSkies said:


> Yup! I've used that one myself! *
> 
> I wonder if we'll have official IP Control before or after the HD GUI*... my guess is at the same time or after, but not before.





RunnerFL said:


> We have official IP Control now.


In context, I was referring to a web app that used IP control, with that web app coming from DIRECTV. You refuse to accept that what I've been referring to all along is a web app from DIRECTV with IP control. If sillysot can do it, DIRECTV can do it...



> This all started with you claiming IP Control was not "Official". Maybe you should read up on IP Control before you assume.


See above. And by the way, you are the one assuming. I have been to the gigantic IP Control is Here thread in the CE forum and know DIRECTV has provided tools to develop an interface using it, but again ... DIRECTV has not yet released an interface that will work in any web browser. We only have hobbyists creating their solutions and we have the iPadd app, with hope that an Adnroid app is coming "soon".

Good day.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> You're making this up. Don't post it as fact.





DarkSkies said:


> We have official receiver control via iPad but to my knowledge only hobbyist receiver control via the web. *I anticipate DIRECTV will eventually have an official web solution for controlling receivers*, so those without tablets (and smartphones) can enjoy the same benefits. It would only take some updates to DIRECTV.com ...


It's a fact I posted my conjecture, but that's just what it is: my anticipation of what is coming.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> It's a fact I posted my conjecture, but that's just what it is: my anticipation of what is coming.


The OP was asking for information from people "in the know" meaning he wasn't looking for conjecture. And in the post I quoted, you not only posted conjecture but you posted it as fact. All of the information I posted in this thread, including info on future developments, is fact.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> The OP was asking for information from people "in the know" meaning he wasn't looking for conjecture. And in the post I quoted, you not only posted conjecture but you posted it as fact. All of the information I posted in this thread, including info on future developments, is fact.


. 
Did you misread the word "posit"? Note the "I".

Regardless, I'm bored now.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> Did you misread the word "posit"? Note the "I".


Indeed I did. My apologies for that.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Indeed I did. My apologies for that.


OK, no harm in the end. Thanks for the follow-up.


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