# 721 Guide Gone!



## Bill Mullin

I was going to program some movies for tonight when I found that my 9-day guide now contained only about 4 hours of information. Both sats are strong here, so it's not a matter of my system not being able to receive a signal. I rebooted but that didn't help. Then I did an NVM Reset followed by a check switch, but that didn't help either. Can anyone tell me how to force the guide to download?

TIA, Bill


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## Guest

I'm glad I'm not the only one. My program guide is now gone as well. I only get what's currently playing and the next show. Last time this happened wasn't it something dish did with compression on the guide?


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## UpOnTheMountain

My guide is gone too!  

Reboot failed to help.
Switch check failed to help.
 

Is there a special code that can be used to force a short guide download?


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## rolou21

****UPDATE****
Spoke w/Dish Adv. Tech Support this morning (Sat. 9am Eastern)
3-1-03 and they confirm there is a system problem @ the uplink center regarding EPG data via 110/xponder 29. They are aware of the problem and hope to have it corrected today......


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## rolou21

If you try a reboot or Nvm re-set IT WILL NOT CORRECT THE PROBLEM. Please be patient as Dish Tech support is aware of this.
Other than that, you will access up to 4 hrs until they fix this.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Same probem here, last night I received another pre release of the L1.10 software, I at first thought it was the new software. Glad its just not me. 

Is this happening to 501s too?


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## Chris Blount

Nope, 501 looks good.


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## TimL

No..my 501 is fine.My guide goes all the way out to Sunday Evening March 9.

Tim Lones


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## dbronstein

My 721 has it as well. Also glad it's not just me.

Dennis


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## KentheVol

I had the same problem with my 508. Had to unplug the unit to get the guide back to 7 days. The same thing happened last Saturday. They must be changing the compression of the guide.


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## JimW396

Something interesting about the problem. With my 721 I can only see 119 here in the Caribbean and until this morning my guide only went out 44 hours. Now, even though there is "No Information", the guide is going out for 6 days, to Thursday. Maybe, just maybe (fingers crossed), Dish is working on giving all of us that only have access to 119 a longer EPG


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## Bill R

I spoke to someone at DISH and was told that the problem is only occuring on 721s. Earilier they thought that it was a 501 and 508 problem too but that appears to not be the case.


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## BobMurdoch

Mine is out as well. I see info for the current show as well as the show immediately following the show currently on.

Anyone have any timers not firing over this issue? I don't have anything scheduled until The Agency on CBS-W tomorrow at 1AM EST, but I want to know whether I need to babysit and make sure it gets the recording made.

After that I have Alias and Six Feet Under (wahoo, it's back!) tomorrow night. Here's hoping they have it resolved by then.


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## Bill R

Bob,

I believe that timers should fire since the 721 uses time slot based recording . 

When we had the "no information" problem on the DishPlayers (quite often a few years ago) it was a big issue. You coulld not record any program that was listed in the EPG with "no information".


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## John Corn

My guide is gone as well....


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## hojni

The guide on my 721 is gone as well. Glad I checked here right away to see that is is a system-wide problem.


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## Filip1

My guide is down too. The dish rep I talked to said it is system wide on the 721's. On the bright side, this is the fourth time I have lost the guide on my 721, in the 6 months I've owned it. Each time, while very irritating, the timers continue to fire on time and record without problem.
Strangely, while the guide has no info, it now goes out 12 days. Weird.


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## DishDude1

Mine is out too on my 721, I just got this thing a couple days ago and I HATE IT! I may be reactivating my 501. I can't believe how much they want for this thing.


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## Bill Mullin

> _Originally posted by DishDude1 _
> *I HATE IT!*


I've got to admit things haven't been too good lately. Since the last software upgrade, my 721 has been plagued with pixelation and "acquiring signal" dropouts. I'd estimate that 50% of the programs I record are lost to these problems, even though my signal is 90+ on all channels. I just checked (4:30 pm ET) and found that EVERY single premiun movie channel is showing these symptoms, and I'm not even recording at this time. If things don't get better with the next software release, I'll be talking to Dish about dropping my service.


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## Jason

Bill Mullin,

I have been speaking out about these problems over the past few months. They seem to come and go and when things are bad, they get really bad! It makes the show almost unwatchable. I previous thought that it was just problems with my locals but that is not the case. It happens on all of the channels at random times. E* knows about this problem but they don't seem to give a damn. I don't think they really care one bit about customer service and could care less if people switch over to DirecTV.


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## Big D

The guide is still out as of 4:25 pm Pacific, making this one over 12 hours and counting! My timer this afternoon did fire okay, so if you have programming to record this evening, go ahead and set it up to do so. It is just that you will need to check on line or some other guide to see what is on!


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## FrankD1

It seems that whatever the problem is, my 721 has been able to keep at least two events worth (the current show and the next) of data all day, so it does seem to be updating. Yeah, this sucks and shouldn't be happening, but it's a minor blip in my opinion. If the problem goes longer than today though, then I might get more upset.


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## dbronstein

This is the first real problem I've had with mine in the 4 months I've had it, so I'll cut them some slack on it. But if it's not back tomorrow, I'm going to let them know I'm not happy, not that that's worth anything.

Dennis


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## Jacob S

More and more are reporting on the signal loss issue that it does this sometimes while other times not. Paying $500-$550 or more for a receiver like this is just rediculous!


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## jcrash

11:30 pm central and guide still not fixed.


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## UpOnTheMountain

07:25 am E.S.T. - and I still have the problem.

This is not acceptable!

I emailed support nearly *24 hours ago* , Expressing a request for help. I have not yet even heard back from them. :down:

This is the second Email that I sen to Support :

_

Hello again.

I have a 721 that has not functioned properly for about 24 hours.

The EPG is only showing current and next program information. This may seam minor to you. But it is a major problem for me.

At $550.00 for the 721, it is critical that it can be used as described. Without the guide information it is not possible to plan recordings. Without the all functionality fully enabled the 721 is no better than a TIVO hooked up to cable. And a lot more expensive.

I emailed support nearly 24 hours ago , Expressing a request for help. I have not yet even heard back from them.

It is important that you make an attempt to communicate when an issue like this occurs.

You need to give us something to go on. Just because we are the high end (721) users and more tolerant of issues, does not mean that we should be ignored.

_


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## motjes2

Checked this a.m., mine still out... Also the 721 is very, very, very slow...


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## larrydj

8am PST Sunday, guide still not fixed. Bummer, Sunday is when I program in all the movies for the next week.


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## cmaier

Sigh. I called tech support to whine, and the guy started with the "can you take the card out..." Yeah, that's it.


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## hojni

10am CST and my 721 guide is still out. Trying a reboot right now.


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## Bill R

Don't bother with a re-boot or anything else. I spoke to someone at DISH just a little bit ago and was told that there is NOTHING a 721 owner can do to get the guide back. It *IS* a problem on DISH's end but they have no time frame as to when it will be fixed.


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## cmaier

Be nice if they'd put something up on their web site, or at least inform their tech. support people not to waste our time.


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## Bill Mullin

I just did another NVM reset followed by a reboot, my EPG came back!


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## dbronstein

What's an NVM reset?


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## SteveinDanville

Hoping I'd get the same result, I did the power button off routine; nothing. Smart card re-insertion; nothing. Unplug 721 for 10 seconds; nothing. Why did your's come back, Bill?


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## motjes2

I am too lazy to look up on how to do the NVM reset. C'mon please post the procedure...We need our guides back...


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## Bill Mullin

> _Originally posted by dbronstein _
> *What's an NVM reset? *


Non Volatile Memory reset, here's how I do it:

- In the menus select "System Setup", then "Diagnostics", now on the remote press Info, right arrow, left arrow.

- A debug menu pops up, one of the selections is NVM reset, select it and it will prompt "Are you sure?", select "Yes".

- When prompted, turn off the power.

- Hold down power on the front panel for about 10 seconds (cold reboot).

- Run check switch by entering "System Setup | Point Dish | Switch | Check ".

- Set "System Setup | Dolby Digital" for Dolby Digital/PCM, assuming you have a DD receiver.

- Reset all your preferences, including favorites.

- You're done!

Note, do the above at your own risk. I don't think you'll have problems, but I will not accept responsibility if you do.

- Bill

P.S. You might want to print this information out for the next time someone suggests an NVM reset.


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## EagleID

Nice piece of Support work DN! First you *cause* a problem for all of us 721 users and then you take who the heck knows how long to correct it. Shame on you! Its been a good 48 hours now and the problem still isn't fixed.


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## dbronstein

> _Originally posted by Bill Mullin _
> *
> - Reset all your preferences, including favorites.
> *


Do you lose all of your timers as well?

Dennis


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## Bill Mullin

> _Originally posted by dbronstein _
> *Do you lose all of your timers as well?*


I don't think so, but you might want to write them down just in case.


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## Bill R

I was specifically told *NOT* to do any resets this morning. Is DISH tech support now recommending that we do a reset to get the guide back?


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## DishDude1

I woke up this morning and hit guide, the small picture in the upper right corner came on and that was it...the remote wouldn't respond nor would and of the buttons on the front panel...so I had to do a reset and wait for the thing to reboot...this thing sucks.


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## Crazy 1

That's the trouble with Dish Network they don't give a hoot about there existing sub's. Thats why I'm no longer with them.


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## UpOnTheMountain

Well, I too did the re-set. 

It worked. 

If E* did not want us to do anything, then they should have made some effort to inform us of what was going on.

I love my 721. I hate the way E* makes me feel when things go wrong. I guess I'm fickled, but E* really should consider some method of communication other waiting until the consumer is so upset that they are willing to set for an hour on the phone to complain.


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## Bill R

It sure would be nice if DISH would use (if it works) the "Dish notes" or "Dish Messaging" (under "Staying in touch") to tell us what we are suppose to do. I hate to go through a NVM reset unless I have to. I'm just going to wait until Monday morning and see if the EEPG is back.


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## cmaier

I just called them, and asked when it will be fixed. "All I can say is they are working of it, and they're well aware of the problem..."


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## Scott Greczkowski

I have not heard back from the 721 team all weekend about the problem, I would assume that the problem is at the uplink since nothing has changed on the receivers in the past 3 days. 

I can't really complaign too much about the guide problem, it's not like I can tell them I want a credit for my PVR service. 

Hang in there everyone, the problem WILL be fixed.


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## lonnman

cmaier, ditto here, they said they assume they are working on it and had no idea when it would be fixed, but did acknowledge that it was their problem. I did try all the normal things, turned receiver off overnight, hard reset, pulled smart card, and ran check switch before calling them though.

I'm hoping that the new SW will be coming out soon, because I have not been pleased with L109 at all, and would rather go back to prior SW L108.

Jeff


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## Bill D

Well not only no Guide but I lost about 70 hours of recordings yesterday.. ughh !!


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## Nordug

The NVM reset worked for me as well!!!


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## Randy_B

So is the 9 day guide for 721 different than the 50x? Why is this isolated to the 721?


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## Bill R

Randy,

The guide is exactly the same. It is the EEPG spooled from the 110 satellite, transponder 29. As Scott has said there is nothing on the 721s that has changed in the last three days so it must be something that DISH has done in the datastream that has "confused" the 721s. I suspect that they _may_ have made some changes to accommodate the DishPlayer (which will be getting the EEPG once the new CLIENT software is spooled this month) and have messed up the "header" or "tag" that tells the 721 to get the data. The fact that the 501s and 508s are getting the EEPG without any problems means that the data itself is there and not corrupt. It is just that something else got messed up and that is why we aren't getting the data. Changing the datasream is not a trivial thing. Remember when all the 301s got knocked offline? I heard that problem was caused by one bit being wrong in a script file that was uplinked.

Apparently the problem is fixed (in the datastream) because if you are willing to do a NVM reset you will start getting the EEPG even though the DISH techs are still telling people this evening that they are still working on the problem.

What upsets me (a little) about a problem like this is that DISH is very poor in communicating with 721 owners about the problem and what we need to do to fix it (should we do a NVM reset or will it correct itself?).

I have told DISH many times that when something like this (or an outage) happens they need to communicate with people that can get that information out to as many people as possible (via this and other boards and newsgroups). They don't even seem to communicate the latest information to their CSR and tech people. They are STILL telling people not to do anything. I even wrote something up about the communications problem and sent it in to engineering (I propossed a limited customer call-up list and making sure that the CSRs and techs are informed) but it must have got lost somewhere in the chain of command. I can't believe that DISH likes to keep its customers in the dark. I just believe that someone that could make a decision like that (a limited customer call list) never seen my recommendation.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Well just for ships and giggles (Hey I can't say the other word, I would have to edit myself)  I tried doing a NVRAM reset on the 721 and after all was said and done, MY FULL GUIDE was indeed BACK!

For those of you who need your guide do the NVRAM reset as shown above.

Remember if you use a different remote address that when you see the aquiring satellite signal to press the SYSTEM INFO button on the front of the 721, then press the RECORD button on your remote (this will sync the remote address with your remote and 721.)

If you can avoid doing a NVRAM reset I would wait for a real fix, when you do a NVRAM reset you lose almost everything (no you dont lose anything you recorded) but you do lose your prefrences, favorites list, switch setting, audio output settings, etc.

So there you go.


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## cmaier

Does the nvram reset lose your timers? (wouldn't think so, but before I hurt myself here I wanted to make sure...)


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## Scott Greczkowski

Timers are still there after the reset


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## Bill D

What is a NVM reset doing to fix it, that Dish can't do. If it is good after a NVM reset then it sounds like Dish has fixed the problem, but the receiver isn't seeing it until the reset. Which seems to me like everyone would have to do a NVM reset. I'll give them another day or two tops, then I will do a reset. I really am not in the mood to re-do everything, especially a SW 64 check switch, and especially after it just dumped 70 hours or so of shows including Survivor, luckily my friend didn't delete his yet. Now if he could only email it to me....


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## BobMurdoch

The NVM reset worked for me as well. Yes, I lost my favorites, my passwords, and I had to reset all of my preferences, but all is working again.

I have a SW64 as well, and the switch check did not take as long as I though it would. About 15 minutes from start to finish after the switch check for 110, 119, and 61.5 birds.

Just be patient and go through the whole process. After I did the switch test, the guide still showed "No info" after two shows out including the one currently on. But after muttering to myself about wild goose chases, I reset all my preferences and passwords and was surprised to discover that all was fixed when I was done.

After doing the NVM reset command, power down by holding in the front button (contrary to earlier help, it will not PROMPT you to power down - at least it didn't for me -- so just do the cold reboot after you confirm the NVM reset.) Make sure you wait all the way through the "Booting" screen message until the screen goes black. Then power up again. Redo your preferences and reset the audio to PCM/Dolby Digital (unless you don't have a surround sound setup capable system).

I don't know what triggered this glitch (March 1st??), but at least we know a fix now should this ever happen again.

Once again, all recordings and timers are unaffected, so don't worry about losing anything critical. Rebuilding your favorites lists and setting your preferences and audio settings are all you have to do. It took about 15 minutes to do the NVM reset, reboot, and switch check, but then you should be fine.

Now let's see how long it takes E* to let the rest of the lemmings in on the fix........


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## larrydj

I did the NVM reset too. I had to reboot twice, but it then went through the process. I ran into the address issue above (The 721 reset to address 1) and went thorugh a long process to sync evreything back up to "5". The guide came back, though I couldn't do a search right away (it was building the search tables). Later I was able to successfully do a search. It was a pain, but now the guide's back.


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## Filip1

I did the NVM reset too. It worked, my guide is back, tho it did take a few minutes after completion to come back.
Thanks to Bill Mullin for posting the reset procedure.


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## boomerang

I'm holding off on the reset. I'd be curious to see if the guide keeps updating on it's own now.

I'd think there is a possibility that five days from now you'll only have four days of guide left. Or however the numbers shake out.


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## tm22721

It is unnecessary to do a full NVRAM reset and lose all of my settings since only the 'guide update flag' and checksum need to be reset.

E* (I know you're reading this forum) had better let me know what location(s) in NVRAM need to be hacked, and to what value(s).

And do they think that their unsophisticated customers will accept this convoluted process ?


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## cmaier

what bugs me is that it's 8am (pacific) a couple days after this started, and still no communications from dish. Nothing on the web site, customer service folks still saying "working on it," ...


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## Scott Greczkowski

I still have not heard from the 721 team. Hopefully we hear something soon.


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## Bill R

I just got off the phone with DISH tech support. As of Monday, 03/03/03, 11:15 AM (EST) there is no "official" word on a fix. I mentioned the NVM reset and was told that I should NOT do it. I was also told that 721 owners will be notified (via a screen message or a phone call) when a fix is available (that is, IF the customer needs to take some action to fix it -- they hope that will not be necessary).


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## Kagato

So what's the deal with the NVM reset? Anytime I've had issue with the 721 it's one of the standard solutions they use in the troubleshooting process.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Ok I just got word from the 721 team, they are working on the issue and that the problem will be fixed over the satellite later today.

You should NOT do a NVRAM reset and wait for the fix.

If I hear anymore I will post it.


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## Bill Mullin

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *You should NOT do a NVRAM reset*


Why not?


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## Scott Greczkowski

From what I see it makes your 721 act sluggish as hell for 24 to 48 hours. 

Remember how your 721 acted the first time you turned it on. Well thats what I happens, it is unknown if doing a NVRAM reset causes other problems, so again better to hold off for the fix from the satellite then do the NVRAM reset.


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## Bill Mullin

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *From what I see it makes your 721 act sluggish as hell for 24 to 48 hours. *


I've done the NVM reset 4 or 5 times now and my experience is that the 721 only gets sluggish as it downloads the EPG. But this is only my personal experience and I'm far from an expert . . . your statement is valid!


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## mjschuyler

WARNING: I just did the MVN reset. As reported you lose your all your times and settings. I also no longer have "NHL Center Ice" or the NBA" in my guide. I subscribe to the "NHL Center Ice" package.

E* treats the NHL & NBA packages as a pay for view this may be why they are gone. I will call E* to see if they can reset the "NHL Center Ice".

This was the reason I went to the 508 and 721 as the Dishplayer could not authorize the NHL.

Murray


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## krlauver

I performed a NVM reset yesterday and my guide came back. Before I knew what was really happening yesterday by checking the board here, I was puzzled as to how I could find a show doing a search, yet when creating a timer for it the screen would not return to the search results.

Resetting the NVM has fixed the problem for me.


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## krlauver

Hey, what's up with this board? Usually when I am logged on it indicates that on the left side of my post. Yet as I write this it says I am OFFLINE? Oh, well as long as my messages post I am fine with it.


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## krlauver

Ah, now it says ONLINE. Must be operator error. Nevermind.


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## lonnman

Did everyone's weekly timers run last night? I had a two and neither ran. When the show finally showed up in the guide, it did not have the red dot, and I waited when "Alias" started, and was forced to manually record it. I did verify in the timers section, before the show started, that I had a timer for Alias, but it did not run. I'm not going to do the NVM unless forced too. I think I will have to revert to my dishplayer days and call them every time and everyday until this is fixed. 

I do have a lot of my stuff duplicated on my 508 so I shouldn't loose too much.

I also noticed that my NHL Center Ice channels sometimes show that I'm not subscribed to it and if I hit cancel and come right back into the guide they are fine. Go figure?


Jeff


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## Scott Greczkowski

I have not heard anything from the 721 team so I don't know if the fix is in place yet or not. (I can't tell as I did the NVRAM Reset)

There needs to be better communication with the users from Echostar when there are problems like this. I am kind of surprised I have not heard anything further on the problem by now.


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## Bill R

Jeff,

I had two timers set up for last evening, one set for early this morning, and one set for a show this evening and all of them fired and recorded as they should.

I haven't done the NVRAM reset yet and the EEPG is still not working. I did call DISH this evening to see what the techs are telling us 721 owners to do. They are still saying "don't do anything, we are working on getting the problem fixed". One person that I talked to at DISH (not the one I talked to this evening) told me that the 721s EEPG problem is related to February having only 28 days (???). :shrug:


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## Scott Greczkowski

Oh so something to look forward to each year?  Can't wait to see what it does on a leap year.


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## Bill R

Scott,

I think the tech was making that up because he didn't have any real answer. Like you, I am surprised that we have not heard anything further on the problem. After three days you would think they would have some infrormation on the problem.


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## larrydj

"One person that I talked to at DISH (not the one I talked to this evening) told me that the 721s EEPG problem is related to February having only 28 days (???"

OK, now that's understandable, something like that is basically unforseeable.


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## BobMurdoch

The 28 days in February excuse. Ah, makes me tingle (or wretch) thinking about those days when we dreaded Daylight Savings time changes and the inevitable SPLAT that my Dishplayers EPG would make.


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## lonnman

Bill,

I can't imagine customer service making anything up .

I did have a timer run for Saturday morning for "American Castles" around 10am (which is a newly created), but nothing else has run. When oneSaturday did the problem actually happen? I can check my Monday timers when I get home from work (working late tonight). Could be related to L109? I have had more problems with it. I am starting to get a little worried, based on my dishplayer days. I was very happy with L108, and thought that L109 was a small step backwards.

I may opt to delete all my timers and start over, but won't do that until the guide is fixed, obviously. I guess I'll be watching more TV in the basement on my 501.

Does anybody now how many 721's are out? Maybe its not a critical priority to fix because there are so few 721's out there per percentage of other boxes. I hope not.

Jeff


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## cmaier

Still no guide (7:12PM, Pacific). Come on, E*.


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## Guest

Good point should do a survey on how many pvr 721 there are! they probably dont really care about us since there isnt many of us


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## cmaier

Argh. Customer service just told me I should "wait a couple of days." Right.


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## EagleID

The full Program Guide is on your 721, it's just that we can't see much of it in the Guide mode or the Theme mode! 

Perform a Search (# button on the Remote) for keyword FASHION for example. I just did that and got 143 Matches starting Monday March 3 and finishing Sunday March 9. Set a Timer from the Search Results screen and it works just fine! Try your own Search keyword to verify what I'm saying. 

This means that the full Program Guide is on the 721, it just that we can't see it in all the modes we have, most importantly the Guide and Theme modes. This is why a NVRAM Reset gets the Guide back - it's there all the time but the 721's logic is improperly set for some reason and won't allow you to see it. 

What we need to fix this is a Reset other than a NVRAM Reset so we don't have to re-program everything! If DN Support can't come up with something right quick, then a NVRAM Reset is the only answer I think.


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## RobbinMerritt

I just turned off my 721 for the night and it rebooted several times, lights blinked, etc. Now my guide is back. I assume E* has finally put their fix up.


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## cmaier

Mine rebooted too (just once) and now I have a guide.


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## dwforslund

I just check my 721 and it said that the an upgrade had been downloaded and to turn off my system for the installation. I did so and turned it on after about 10 minutes and the guides are back just fine. I didn't have to do an NVM Ram reset at all. It looks like they pushed out a fix to the 721. The system is still 1.09.


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## DmitriA

Yep. The guide is back. And it only took 3 days to fix it - I think all Dish engineers deserve a raise (i.e. a severance package)


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## JohnH

Mine just did a reboot and said acquiring data from satellite.


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## Chris Blount

No roboot this morning but the guide was there.


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## dbronstein

Mine's back as well.


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## lonnman

Mine was there this morning, did have to do a reboot, because I could not watch any of my recorded shows, I would select "start over" and it would go back to regular live TV. After a reset, and worried that I would loose my recordings, everything was fine, but super sluggish (did not do the NVM).

My timers seemed to have fired last night, so everything was fine.

Jeff


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## SParker

Strange,

I woke up and turned on my 721 and it had rebooted itself.


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## Guest

My 721 did a double reboot this morning at about 12:45 AM PST. 
I assume the reboot was initiated by E as it was not done by me. After the reboot the full guide was back.


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## mattmcg

Got the update and it installed and rebooted. Everything's back to normal. And actually, the system seems to be a bit faster as well!

I'm pleased that E* could solve a bug and have it downloaded within 3 days (especially over a weekend). I think folks need to realize, this is pretty bleeding edge stuff (Large hardrives, Linux, complex menu and recording systems) and we're all early adopters.... You have to accept that there will be minor glitches and that E* will work hard to fix and enhance the total product platform. 

Being somebody that works in building complex communications switches, things WILL happen in the early phase. How to judge a worthy product is in the responsiveness to fixing the bug. (That being said, in telecom, 3 days would have been far too much, but customers are willing to pay for completely redundant systems so that doesn't happen and fixes happen while the redundant is active)....

For a simplex system, I'm pleased at E*'s responsiveness.


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## Scott Greczkowski

> I'm pleased that E* could solve a bug and have it downloaded within 3 days (especially over a weekend). I think folks need to realize, this is pretty bleeding edge stuff (Large hardrives, Linux, complex menu and recording systems) and we're all early adopters.... You have to accept that there will be minor glitches and that E* will work hard to fix and enhance the total product platform.


Well said. Now if we had this problem on a Dishplayer it would be 6 months before we had a fix, 3 days was really not too bad.

I have talked to a few people at Echostar about the problem and there are more pieces of the puzzle then folks realize to get a problem like this fixed.

First the reason for the problem must be identified.

Next a solution on how to correct the problem with the least inconvience to the customer must be thought of. (They could have easily told everyone to do a NVRAM reset and problem solved, but they came up with a solution to have it fixed with the customer doing nothing)

Next they must test the fix, if it works then the fix my go to the uplink who must figure how to stick the fix into the data stream.

The entire process is quite involved and involves more then 1 person.

Now that the fix is out they must figure out what caused the problem and how to prevent it from happening again. I am told that they are on top of this and are already working on safeguards to prevent this from ever happening again.

Great job to the 721 team for a job well done.


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## EagleID

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *
> 
> Well said. Now if we had this problem on a Dishplayer it would be 6 months before we had a fix, 3 days was really not too bad.
> 
> I have talked to a few people at Echostar about the problem and there are more pieces of the puzzle then folks realize to get a problem like this fixed.
> 
> First the reason for the problem must be identified.
> 
> Next a solution on how to correct the problem with the least inconvience to the customer must be thought of. (They could have easily told everyone to do a NVRAM reset and problem solved, but they came up with a solution to have it fixed with the customer doing nothing)
> 
> Next they must test the fix, if it works then the fix my go to the uplink who must figure how to stick the fix into the data stream.
> 
> The entire process is quite involved and involves more then 1 person.
> 
> Now that the fix is out they must figure out what caused the problem and how to prevent it from happening again. I am told that they are on top of this and are already working on safeguards to prevent this from ever happening again.
> 
> Great job to the 721 team for a job well done. *


Seems to me that giving DishNetwork a *Standing-O* at this stage of the game is more than a bit premature. I highly suspect that the Program Guide "outage" was a CAUSED event - not an Act of God. If my suspicion is true, and if we ever are told the precise reason for the outage, then only the die-hard _*cheerleaders*_ in the crowd will be giving *Standing-O's* for taking 72 hours to fix what they broke - IMHO.


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## bfennema

So, after reading on here that a fix was avaliable, I forced a reboot... guide was still gone.. checked download status, and a download was done (presumably downloaded while it was rebooting before). So forced another reboot. Guide was back.. *woohoo* an hour or so later, boom.. totally random receiver reboot. wasn't doing anything special, just watching live tv. first random reboot in several months. new bug??? who knows =)


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## Scott Greczkowski

I KNOW the exact reason for the problem, it was a bad data packet from the EPG provider. This bad packet needed to be deleted from the users hard drives, once this was done the 721 downloaded its guide data as it should.

I am not giving the 721 a "standing-o" because of the lack of communication all weekend long. But in making a fix they did a great job.

Again they could have told everyone to do a NVRAM reset, but instead they put their thinking caps on and came up with a solution and for that I say bravo.


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## dbronstein

And in the grand scheme of things, this was really a minor problem. Aside from the EPG, the boxes were still fully functional. You could watch TV, all my timers fired perfectly, etc. Yes it was annoying, and there should've been better communication. But what all we lost was the ability to set timers off of the guide.

Dennis


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## EagleID

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *I KNOW the exact reason for the problem, it was a bad data packet from the EPG provider. This bad packet needed to be deleted from the users hard drives, once this was done the 721 downloaded its guide data as it should. *


Humm - so in effect, you saying that the *data* corrupted the EPG display program? Like a buffer overrun or underrun that is uncompensated for by error checking? :shrug:

Are you saying that the downloaded *data* stream is not error checked with any of the conventional methods like CRC or LRC check characters? :shrug:

So the "real" problem apparently is that corrupt or erroneous Program Guide *data* can cause the 721 to completely loose it's ability to properly display Program Guide information from some point forward. This is apparently compounded by the fact that End Users cannot evoke a simple system Reset that allows them to simply re-download Program Guide information and clear out the erroneous data. Is this the case?


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## Scott Greczkowski

Chuck, I have no idea how it works or what checks are in place. 

It was bad data is all I know.

I know they are working very hard to prevent this from ever happening again.

Again it was not like you lost service, your timers fired, you were just missing the 9 day guide. I am sure if you called them up and complained they would refund your PVR fees back to. :lol:

All kidding aside they are working hard to prevent this from happening again, and also now have a procedure in place in case something like this was to happen in the future.


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## Bill D

I agree losing the guide was a slight inconvenience especially compared to the receiver losing about 70 hours of my recordings on Saturday. Dish has no idea why that happened..


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## Bill R

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *I KNOW the exact reason for the problem, it was a bad data packet from the EPG provider.
> 
> I am not giving the 721 a "standing-o" because of the lack of communication all weekend long. But in making a fix they did a great job.
> 
> Again they could have told everyone to do a NVRAM reset, but instead they put their thinking caps on and came up with a solution and for that I say bravo. *


That is a FAR more logical answer than I got (February having 28 days caused the problem).

I would guess that there is difference in the way that the 501/508s handle the EEPG data and that would explain why they did not have a problem.

I agree with Scott. DISH did do a good job of getting the problem fixed quickly and with out requiring the customer to do anything (like a NVRAM reset) and I think THAT is very important.

I would like to see better communications when something like this happens and I do think that they need to emphasize (strongly) to their CSRs and techs that if they don't know the answer (or reason for the problem) DON'T make up something (like "February having 28 days caused the problem").


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## EagleID

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *Chuck, I have no idea how it works or what checks are in place.
> 
> It was bad data is all I know. *


  
 
Scott - since you don't know how it works or what data checks are in place, you must admit that you don't actually know what caused the problem either. What you apparently know is what Dish Network told you, and in a very superficial way I might add.

I KNOW this much - and that is that data errors should never corrupt the operation of a program. Period. Dish Network should immediately initiate a patch (if software can fix this problem) to fix this problem and not wait to consolidate it with some fluff feature patches. I, for one, found the loss of the EPG to be very annoying. Therefore, thanks Techs for finding the problem and Dish Network will get my cheers when I see the patch from them post haste. :goodjob:

No mas, No mas :soapbox:


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## Guest

I gotta agree with Scott here....

How many times have I had a software company tell me to 'reinstall' or 'reboot' to solve a simple problem? I dont know, but when I tell them that is an unacceptable answer for a mission critical application, it usually gets a different response.

I wasnt too upset to wait for the fix (always assuming it was coming) but I would have been pretty mad if I'd been told to 'do a reset and reprogram everything'..... to me, wait a day or two is ok (much as some might disagree, TV is not 'mission critical') but re-do everything is not....

Re-do everything is the Microsoft answer....


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## marshalk

All I can say is welcome to the world of 119 only in terms of no EPG. Lets hope your TV viewing isn't mission critical, or at least the EPG.


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## Danbo

I'm glad they got the problem resolved, even though I opted to do the NVM reset so my wife could search for shows she wanted to record. And she's on a recording kick now too, annoying as hell.

If I remember correctly, what DirecTV had (or has) is a messaging system that they can use to inform customers about PPV events and the like. I would personally like to see Dish have and/or use something like that to inform customers about issues like these as soon as they spot there is a problem, especially when they're widespread like the EPG issue. Even a short message, stating they know about the problem and are working on a fix would be good.

I've worked in software development all of my professional life so far. When we had critical issues, we'd send out mass mailings to customers letting them know, and when to expect a resolution. We might not know how long it would take, but we'd give it at least a best guess. I'm not suggesting they post the NVM reset procedure, yet informing people via some sort of messaging system goes a long way to letting their customers know they're aware of the problem and doing what they can. This can even be done with things like expected dates for new releases, brief description of enhancements when releases are made, and so on.

Perhaps Scott can pass that idea on to them and see how it's taken as a way to improve PR between Dish and it's customers.


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## mattmcg

> _Originally posted by EagleID _
> *
> 
> Scott - since you don't know how it works or what data checks are in place, you must admit that you don't actually know what caused the problem either. What you apparently know is what Dish Network told you, and in a very superficial way I might add.
> 
> I KNOW this much - and that is that data errors should never corrupt the operation of a program. Period. Dish Network should immediately initiate a patch (if software can fix this problem) to fix this problem and not wait to consolidate it with some fluff feature patches. I, for one, found the loss of the EPG to be very annoying. Therefore, thanks Techs for finding the problem and Dish Network will get my cheers when I see the patch from them post haste. :goodjob:
> 
> No mas, No mas :soapbox: *


You've obviously never developed a complex hardware/software system before....... An errored bit in a bitstream can create all sorts of problems....

Unfortunately, data errors do cause problems in the operation of a program. The only way around this is to build redundant hardware and software systems, none of which you'd be willing to pay for in a home based PVR system. I'm not defending E*, I'm just saying that it's easy to throw stones from the sidelines when you're on the outside trying to look in.


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## Adrian_R

> _Originally posted by mattmcg _
> *
> 
> You've obviously never developed a complex hardware/software system before....... An errored bit in a bitstream can create all sorts of problems....*


Actually, it sounds like he has, and he called it right on top of that. There should be a CRC (or whatever kind of) check of the data once its downloaded. This is a standard thing to do. Sheesh, even when I download from the newsgroups, I get a sfv and/or par file to check the downloaded data against. It shouldn't be a hard thing for Dish to do (and actually I'd be surprised if they don't already do it).

For the record, I think Dish techs do get a pat on the back from the weekend work and (relatively) quck fix. However, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taken to task if they caused the problem in the first place as well. Live by the sword, die by the sword!


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## Mike123abc

A bad data packet does not mean a transmission error or corrupted data. It simply could be a type of packet that the 721 does not know how to interpret. Note it was said it was provided by the EPG provider (Dish buys the guide info), Dish probably just retransmits it exactly as it comes in. A malformed packet that was produce by the provider would simply be passed on exactly as is through Dish. To make baseless accusations about how a data stream should be error checked is a bit reckless.

Unless we find out the exact problem with the EPG data stream all this is just mindless speculation that the mistake was on Dish's end.


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## tm22721

I hate to state the obvious but reliability is related to complexity which is very high in a software intensive product like the 721.

We keep expecting costs to decrease while features increase. That implies that the role and complexity of software (and the attendant bugs) will only continue to increase as well. 

Software testing is not an exact science and in fact is a crap shoot on most projects. Except for mission-critical and safety related applications of course where adequate testing time and expense are budgeted in. The fact is, most leading edge consumer products don't sell in high enough volumes to justify big testing efforts or extended schedules. I am not defending this practice, only pointing out the conflict between consumer expectations and real world business constraints. Smart consumers buy a product / technology after it has reached its maturity stage and penetration levels have saturated.

Stated another way, mature people stay with mature products.


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## BobMurdoch

> _Originally posted by EagleID _
> *
> 
> Seems to me that giving DishNetwork a Standing-O at this stage of the game is more than a bit premature. I highly suspect that the Program Guide "outage" was a CAUSED event - not an Act of God. If my suspicion is true, and if we ever are told the precise reason for the outage, then only the die-hard cheerleaders in the crowd will be giving Standing-O's for taking 72 hours to fix what they broke - IMHO. *


I, for one, will give them a little slack here as there are a few situations that, for whatever reason, seem to give the programmers fits: Daylight Savings time changes, February 28/29, and leap years.

I was impatient and did the NVM reset, so mine was fixed quickly. After owning two dishplayers, the 721 seems like a walk in the park to maintain and keep running smoothly. I'm hoping I have the same experience with the 921.


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## lonnman

mattmcg,

I would not agree that we are bleeding edge customers, the 721 have been out for at least 6+ months (can't remeber actual release date), and they have a 50x product out for even longer as well. It seems to me that they don't do a thorough job of testing.

Bleeding edge to me is using a beta product before it is released to the general public. If they change the bit stream or anything else, they should have all teams signoff on it, granted this problem could have been out of there hands, but we will probably never find that out, and will have to give them the benefit of the doubt this time.

I do love my 721 a majority of the time.

Jeff


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## Scott Greczkowski

Again I will say I applaud the 721 team for the quick fix, yes they could have had you reset your NVRAM on Saturday and you could have lost all your settings but at least had your guide back.

The 721 team worked to come up with a fix that required no intervention on the users part, sure it took 3 days but you didn't have to waste an hour setting everything back up.

Again if it was a dishplay it would be 6 months before a fix could be found 

Would I have wanted the fix in 1 day instead of 3? Yeah and I am sure the 721 team would have loved to fix it that fast too!

What I am saying folks is when life hands you a lemon you make the best of it and make lemon-aid.

The 721 is a fine piece of equipment, and for what its worth all you Tivo fans seemed to forget that the Tivo has its own guide problems a year or so ago. 

I am very happy with my 721.


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## Guest

Interesting discussion. After shopping around for weeks on the 721 I noticed a general trend that most electronics retail outlets don't carry the 721, even those that are Dish resellers that carry other models in the line. I can only suspect that in fact the 721 is not yet robust enough for the major outlets to be comfortable with.

This is a piece of home electronics gear, It does not seem reasonable (as some posts above suggest) that some bugs are ok. What if your TV, DVD player and VCR did the same thing, would you accept it? As for complexity, modern multichannel home theater receivers are as complex as they come. They contain DSPs, DACs, microprocessors and all sorts of complex electronics, yet all recievers are receivers are rock solid.

I think the core problem here is that the 721 is not being developed (at least the software from what I can tell) from a mainstream consumer electronics outfit that knows how to build a rock solid product. And more to the point, an independent vendor that does not have you locked into a 12 month contract when you purchase the reciever.


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## mattmcg

> _Originally posted by Paul F. _
> *
> This is a piece of home electronics gear, It does not seem reasonable (as some posts above suggest) that some bugs are ok. What if your TV, DVD player and VCR did the same thing, would you accept it? As for complexity, modern multichannel home theater receivers are as complex as they come. They contain DSPs, DACs, microprocessors and all sorts of complex electronics, yet all recievers are receivers are rock solid.
> *


TVs, DVDs and VCRs actually have little software (almost nothing besides basic logic and menu systems). This really isn't a fair comparison to what is really a personal computer running Linux.....

I'd say a more fair comparison is buying a Dell or Gateway PC and loading the latest Microsoft OS. Billions have been spent developing this and there are constantly bugs as well as feature updates......


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## Guest

Matt, I thought someone would bring this up, and you're correct in that the 721 is more like a PC running software than most home electronics gear. However unlike regular PCs, the 721 does not have to ensure compatibility with hundreds of third party software applications, hardware drivers, OS extentions etc. 

The 721 is effectively a closed shop (with maybe the EPG an exception) so ensuring software robustness should be far simpler than a regular PC.

I guess a fair comparison would be other PVR units made by independent suppliers such as Hughes, JVC, Philips, Sony, Zenith etc.


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## Scott Greczkowski

I think that the 721 is a "filler" piece of Equipment which was put in place to settle a portion of the market who wanted a dual tuner PVR.

I am predicting that when the 522 comes out that the 721 will be discontinued. Of course the 721 will still be supported as its base code will be used by all future Dish PVR receivers.

I could always be wrong and do not regret purchasing a 721 in any way.


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## Guest

I'll keep an eye out for the 522. I found a few pictures of it on the Web. I like it cause it's black and matches the rest of my gear. I also checked out your comparison and it looks like it has almost the same features as the 721 with the exception of being able to relay a signal to a second TV which is a great bonus.

I am looking forward to Dish, I just need to feel comfortable with the equipment. Great Website too.


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## BobMurdoch

I call it Best Buy syndrome. Other than few items they usually only carry the low to midrange items (I couldn't buy my Sony KP-WV600 there as they only had the cheaper models there).

A lot of retailers will not carry the more expensive items due to low SKU turnover (ie. they sell 100 of the cheap sets and 2 of the expensive, so why give up the shelf space)


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## tontomono

Yeah, Best Buy is kinda like that, I work there, and quite unfortunately they do not carry any Dish stuff, only Direct. Anyways, good to hear that the guide problem is all fixed considering I will be receiving my 721 (and quad lnb (legacy) on Monday and am running all the extra cabling tomorrow in preparation. On the subject of the faulty bit etc., since this is linux, why don't they hash their files/bitsream and then once the player has received the data have it check it's hash with one from Dish. If it's not right, redownload. Just my two cents as to a solution if this was indeed the case for all of you and Dish. Adios!


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