# Nexstar Media Group is largest local station blackout in TV history - resolved



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Nexstar Media Group threatens largest local station blackout in TV history, according to DISH

*- Nexstar turns back on public interest obligations, holds local viewers hostage to create negotiation leverage
- Broadcaster giant demands more than $1 billion for local broadcast station fees*

ENGLEWOOD, Colo., Nov. 26, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Nexstar Media Group, the largest local broadcast station owner in the nation, is threatening to black out DISH customers' access to 164 local channels in 120 markets across 42 states and the District of Columbia. The broadcast giant is trying to use its market power to demand unreasonable rate increases while intentionally using millions of Americans as pawns in their negotiations. This action by Nexstar would result in consumers being blacked out from the highest number of local broadcast stations in the nation's TV history.

In recent years, Nexstar went on a $12 billion local broadcast station buying spree to become the largest and most powerful station owner in the country. Now that Nexstar is the biggest in the industry, it is trying to strong-arm companies like DISH to pay outrageous rates and force unprecedented increases onto customers. The broadcaster continues to threaten to blackout its stations from DISH customers to gain negotiation leverage in an effort to line its wallet with viewers' hard-earned money - a tactic it used last year against DirecTV and AT&T U-verse.

"Since becoming the nation's largest local station owner, Nexstar has increased its annual revenue by $1 billion a year. Now, it has set its sights on DISH customers as their next big payday," said Brian Neylon, Group President, DISH TV. "Nexstar is demanding more than $1 billion in fees for its television channels. This shocking increase is the highest we've ever seen. Nexstar is intentionally turning its back on its public interest obligation and instead demanding consumers pay significantly more for the channels they could receive for free over-the-air."

Nexstar is also forcing DISH to carry WGN America as part of this deal, a channel that has experienced declining viewership in recent years. Nexstar acquired this channel when it bought Tribune last year. Now, the broadcast owner is looking to DISH customers to pay back this investment. Nexstar is demanding a significant payment for this low-rated channel that airs syndicated reruns found on other DISH stations and features a news program that can be accessed for free online.

"With the COVID-19 pandemic continuing to affect the nation and unemployment on the rise, subscribers need access to their local programming," said Neylon. "Nexstar's tactics are hurting millions of Americans at one of the most difficult times in recent history."

In an additional hit to customers, Nexstar announced that it is expecting to pay out over $100 million to its shareholders - this is the same money Nexstar is making on the backs of Americans nationwide.

"It's our goal to reach an agreement with Nexstar that is fair for all parties involved, especially our customers," added Neylon. "We will continue to fight on behalf of our customers to keep TV bills as low as possible, and we hope Nexstar sees how important it is to come to a deal that is beneficial for all."

DISH customers can visit DISHPromise.com for more information.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Nexstar Media Group, Inc.
Nexstar Media Group, Inc. is America's largest local television and media company with 197 full power stations (including partner stations) in 115 markets addressing nearly 63% of US television households and a growing digital media operation. Nexstar's platform delivers exceptional local content and network programming to inform and entertain viewers, while providing premium, scalable local advertising opportunities for advertisers and brands across all screens and devices.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Glad I can get all my locals via antenna and tell all the station owners to STFU! This particular group doesn’t affect my market area but if they manage to get big increases you can bet all the others will line up at the trough!


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

lparsons21 said:


> Glad I can get all my locals via antenna and tell all the station owners to STFU! This particular group doesn't affect my market area but if they manage to get big increases you can bet all the others will line up at the trough!


Totally agree. These constant disputes are not good for either side. Portland has KOIN/KRCW both Nexstar, so people will lose CBS & CW.


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## grover517 (Sep 29, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> Glad I can get all my locals via antenna and tell all the station owners to STFU! This particular group doesn't affect my market area but if they manage to get big increases you can bet all the others will line up at the trough!


Yeah, I stood up an antenna array on my roof years ago when I was still with DirecTV. Between rain/snow fade and what seemed to be never ending disputes with local station owners like Nexstar along with wanting to circumvent sports blackouts by having access to 3 DMA's major network stations using it, the antenna is becoming less of a backup solution and more our go to for major network access.

As for telling the station owners to STFU, well the jury is still out on that one. As ATSC 3.0 rolls out and becomes more the standard, I can see these same station owners putting things like 4k OTA content behind a paywall while leaving standard HD in the clear so they can satisfy any FCC public access requirements. That would work fine for me since I am good with HD/stereo but others aren't. Suffice it to say, the station owners will find a way to try and monetize everything and push for as much as they possibly can.


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## Tiny (Feb 1, 2009)

I still got a outdoor antenna it’s about 30 years old lol nothing like old technology I always chuckle when people ask me if it’s a HD antenna..


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## AZ. (Mar 27, 2011)

These stations should be split apart...Never should they be allowed to hold such a market share!
For the price their asking, it should be commercial free!


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## reubenray (Jun 27, 2002)

I am set up also with an OTA antenna for my local CBS station, but it won't do any good with WGN.


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## Richard (Apr 24, 2002)

Everyone should stand against this. There is absolutely no reason any distributer should have to pay to re-broadcast these channels.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Part of the problem with this dispute is the size of Nexstar --- The $1 billion works out to $6 million per station (roughly $500k per station per month if the $1 bullion is an annual fee). Not "pennies a day" - but the expansion for Nexstar combined contracts DISH was paying to multiple companies.

Any change would need to come from Congress. They are the ones who wrote the laws allowing stations to charge for retransmission. The reasoning is to pay a copyright fee - but it has changed into a profit center for the stations and the networks they carry. Much of what Nexstar charges will be passed back to ABC, CBS, CW, NBC and Fox - And those networks are pushing for higher fees. If you want to stop the distributors from paying fees get Congress to re-write the laws.

(I would not mind seeing a statutory rate for copyright - paid to all stations not just the ones that hold their signals for ransom. It is unfair for the low rated locally owned stations to be forced to choose "must carry" and get no compensation at all while the more profitable stations can charge as much as the market allows - pushing past the $1 per subscriber rate into fees that cover much more than copyright.)


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## Tiny (Feb 1, 2009)

reubenray said:


> I am set up also with an OTA antenna for my local CBS station, but it won't do any good with WGN.


I haven't watched WGN since they quit broadcasting the Cubs


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

James Long said:


> Part of the problem with this dispute is the size of Nexstar --- The $1 billion works out to $6 million per station (roughly $500k per station per month if the $1 bullion is an annual fee). Not "pennies a day" - but the expansion for Nexstar combined contracts DISH was paying to multiple companies.
> 
> Any change would need to come from Congress. They are the ones who wrote the laws allowing stations to charge for retransmission. The reasoning is to pay a copyright fee - but it has changed into a profit center for the stations and the networks they carry. Much of what Nexstar charges will be passed back to ABC, CBS, CW, NBC and Fox - And those networks are pushing for higher fees. If you want to stop the distributors from paying fees get Congress to re-write the laws.
> 
> (I would not mind seeing a statutory rate for copyright - paid to all stations not just the ones that hold their signals for ransom. It is unfair for the low rated locally owned stations to be forced to choose "must carry" and get no compensation at all while the more profitable stations can charge as much as the market allows - pushing past the $1 per subscriber rate into fees that cover much more than copyright.)





reubenray said:


> I am set up also with an OTA antenna for my local CBS station, but it won't do any good with WGN.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Well, if it takes Congress to change the rules then don't hold your breath. Get that outdoor antenna set up. Funny around here with 5 translators and 26 OTA stations, there still only a few people with outdoor antennas. I tell people all of time get that outdoor antenna I will not have to pay for locals. Since the stacking with 3.0 we went from 16 to 26 OTA offerings giving us ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, FOX, MYTV, & CW, plus METV, Comet, Stadium, Get TV, Qwest, COZI, Grit, Bounce, Antenna TV, and others. There is no reason why someone could not go with OTA TV, unless in an apt with rules, but there are also some ways around it. Jumping from carrier to carrier wont solve it permanently. Spectrum Cable increases their rates to pay the higher rates, so few disputes, but will that last forever?


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

FYI for any lurking readers who maybe thinking of cancelling Dish Network for DirecTV, AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now double check your market's other locals. It appears Tenga & Nexstar has a lot of markets where they both own stations. AT&T maybe forced to black out Tenga stations if they don't reach a new deal/extension by November 30, 2020. If both AT&T and Dish have to pull Tenga & Nexstar locals this means both DirecTV will be missing the Tenga station(s) and Dish will be potentially missing the Nexstar station(s) in the same market at the same time.

Switching providers during these disputes is not the answer.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

The only way to "win" is to use an OTA antenna for anything local (or at least have it available when needed).


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

techguy88 said:


> FYI for any lurking readers who maybe thinking of cancelling Dish Network for DirecTV, AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now double check your market's other locals. It appears Tenga & Nexstar has a lot of markets where they both own stations. AT&T maybe forced to black out Tenga stations if they don't reach a new deal/extension by November 30, 2020. If both AT&T and Dish have to pull Tenga & Nexstar locals this means both DirecTV will be missing the Tenga station(s) and Dish will be potentially missing the Nexstar station(s) in the same market at the same time.
> 
> Switching providers during these disputes is not the answer.


Like Portland, Tegna owns KGW/NBC and Nexstar owns/CBS KOIN/CW KRCW. Sinclair owns KATU/ABC and Meredith owns KPTV/FOX and KPDX/MYTV. There have been disputes will all of them at different times. I am sure there will be many more. Also if a dispute goes on too long, often DISH may l give up and the service may never return.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

scooper said:


> The only way to "win" is to use an OTA antenna for anything local (or at least have it available when needed).


Add to that, if you use an OTA antenna, you get the diginets. Dish does carry a few, but many are not carried. For our rural area, 26 offerings are fantastic. I will say one thing, the station owners gave us the free TV out here and it costs hundred's of thousands to install and keep the translators on. They do a great job on keeping them on the air with our stormy weather in the Winter.


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

Demands like this are just cutting their own throat, at least in the long run. Advertisers want eyeballs and loosing the various satelite and streaming services cuts eyeballs. At some point advertisers will demand lower ad rates or go elsewhere. Unfortunately, in the short run it's viewers like DISH customers who suffer. Even so, I have to side with Charlie on this one.


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## ThunderRoad (May 13, 2006)

As has been pointed out, Dish isn't the only one going through this. We may be getting to the point where locals aren't available on any service, unless something drastically changes. Where I'm at, after Tuesday, I could be down to just my ABC & NBC affiliate (no CBS, CW or Fox).


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

I've been considering purchasing a SiliconDust HDHomeRun HDHR5-4US Connect Quatro 4 Channel Tuner and hooking it up to my home network. Either that, or getting a Locast account and utilizing the Locast 2 Plex plugin. The challenge with both solution is that, outside of the Dallas Cowboys games (blame my next door neighbor) and severe weather coverage, I'm not watching OTA programming at all. My office television is the only television of the three in my home without a OTA antenna connection.


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## krel (Mar 20, 2013)

Tiny said:


> I still got a outdoor antenna it's about 30 years old lol nothing like old technology I always chuckle when people ask me if it's a HD antenna..


Most people think you need an HD antenna to pick up HD signals. Talk about a marketing scheme


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

ThunderRoad said:


> As has been pointed out, Dish isn't the only one going through this. We may be getting to the point where locals aren't available on any service, unless something drastically changes. Where I'm at, after Tuesday, I could be down to just my ABC & NBC affiliate (no CBS, CW or Fox).


Maybe Dish/Direct needs to just charge more for locals. If people want them, they will have to pay for them. At least they are available. Now they aren't with these disputes.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

krel said:


> Most people think you need an HD antenna to pick up HD signals. Talk about a marketing scheme


An antenna is an antenna... The only difference is VHF vs UHF. No such thing as an HD antenna.


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## krel (Mar 20, 2013)

mwdxer said:


> An antenna is an antenna... The only difference is VHF vs UHF. No such thing as an HD antenna.


Yep!!!!


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## Eva (Nov 8, 2013)

They should've never dumped the old station limit.


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## BobCulp (Dec 21, 2013)

233 KTLA crawler says Dec 2 (Wednesday) 4 PM local time, dish could take this station down

235 KWGN just tuned into this channel waiting for crawler, none yet.

239 WGN America with New Nation is included with Nexstar.

Here is a list of Nexstar stations. Nexstar Media Group, Inc. | Stations

In other related events, 252 True Crime channel has been down for a dispute.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

Mark Holtz said:


> I've been considering purchasing a SiliconDust HDHomeRun HDHR5-4US Connect Quatro 4 Channel Tuner and hooking it up to my home network. Either that, or getting a Locast account and utilizing the Locast 2 Plex plugin. The challenge with both solution is that, outside of the Dallas Cowboys games (blame my next door neighbor) and severe weather coverage, I'm not watching OTA programming at all. My office television is the only television of the three in my home without a OTA antenna connection.


For your limited OTA usage, might it be simpler to just get a Locast account and cast the programs to your TV from your phone or PC if you don't have Firestick or Roku?


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

NYDutch said:


> For your limited OTA usage, might it be simpler to just get a Locast account and cast the programs to your TV from your phone or PC if you don't have Firestick or Roku?


All of my TVs are Roku TVs, and my office TV has a 4K Firestick.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

No locast for Kansas City


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> Maybe Dish/Direct needs to just charge more for locals. If people want them, they will have to pay for them. At least they are available. Now they aren't with these disputes.


The problem is that if people don't want the locals (or drop them because they don't want to pay that high of a price) then Dish would still be on the hook to pay for those channels. A lot of these broadcasters (maybe even most of them) are demanding payment for every subscriber in the market, whether the subscriber pays for locals or not. Dish is not going to just eat that cost, so that means that our bills would still go up, even if we choose not to subscribe to the locals. Meanwhile, Directv does not even give their subscribers the option to drop the locals, so that idea is a non-starter for them...


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

In Chicago area we thought we'd dodged a bullet when Sinclair dropped out of the picture for WGN channel 9. Turns out the alternative isn't any better. I'll wager we'd have lost the channel either way.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mwdxer said:


> An antenna is an antenna... The only difference is VHF vs UHF. No such thing as an HD antenna.


There is still good vs garbage ... although with marketing some people are likely to take down an excellent old style antenna and replace it with a less excellent "HD" antenna.

What happens when the signal is poor or when one has too much signal has certainly changed from the analog days. Watching a marginal station through the static was a lot easier than watching a marginal station through dropouts and glitches. I do not remember having "too much signal" until I started trying to receive digital feeds.


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## david91722 (Oct 10, 2010)

BobCulp said:


> 233 KTLA crawler says Dec 2 (Wednesday) 4 PM local time, dish could take this station down
> 
> 235 KWGN just tuned into this channel waiting for crawler, none yet.
> 
> ...


234 WPIX isn't owned by Nexstar, so for those of us who still have that channel, we will still be able to watch CW network programming.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

James Long said:


> Part of the problem with this dispute is the size of Nexstar --- The $1 billion works out to $6 million per station (roughly $500k per station per month if the $1 bullion is an annual fee). Not "pennies a day" - but the expansion for Nexstar combined contracts DISH was paying to multiple companies.


Your math is assuming that the $1,000,000,000 number thrown out by Dish is an annual amount which Dish doesn't say in the PR. Maybe it's 1 year, maybe it's 5 years, either wayI agree it is ridiculous that anyone has to pay to retransmit a local channel.


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## renegade (Jul 28, 2011)

david91722 said:


> 234 WPIX isn't owned by Nexstar, so for those of us who still have that channel, we will still be able to watch CW network programming.


WPIX sale pending to Mission Broadcasting. Also in dispute with DISH, so three of the five Superstations will soon be under blackout.

I stand to lose at least eight stations when this dispute kicks in.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

RAD said:


> Your math is assuming that the $1,000,000,000 number thrown out by Dish is an annual amount which Dish doesn't say in the PR. Maybe it's 1 year, maybe it's 5 years, either wayI agree it is ridiculous that anyone has to pay to retransmit a local channel.


It could be a monthly fee ... as we both have pointed out, DISH didn't state how long the $1 billion requested covered. If it is for five years that would make a "reasonable" price. The point was that DISH and Nextar are negotiating ~164 stations. That is going to move the decimal point regardless of the requested price per subscriber per station.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

Mark Holtz said:


> All of my TVs are Roku TVs, and my office TV has a 4K Firestick.


There ya go, put the Locast app on the office Firestick and enjoy the games...


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

BillJ said:


> In Chicago area we thought we'd dodged a bullet when Sinclair dropped out of the picture for WGN channel 9. Turns out the alternative isn't any better. I'll wager we'd have lost the channel either way.


Yes, but with Sinclair, their dispute with Dish over the broadcast locals won't be until next year. So, this way, you lose the channel that much sooner.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

david91722 said:


> 234 WPIX isn't owned by Nexstar, so for those of us who still have that channel, we will still be able to watch CW network programming.


Yes, but those who still have WPIX just recently lost it for a long while during the Scripps dispute before it came back. And now this:


renegade said:


> WPIX sale pending to Mission Broadcasting. Also in dispute with DISH, so three of the five Superstations will soon be under blackout.
> ...


Like I said, Dish just got WPIX back, and now they may lose it again! I really wish that once these local stations get sold, the new owner would still be bound to the terms of the contract that the previous owner agreed to, until that contract expires. Of course, that would mean that whenever one of these disputes comes up, not all of the stations would get dropped at once, as the newly-acquired stations would likely have different contract expiration dates. This would give the huge mega-broadcasters less leverage, until they have owned the stations long enough to be able to get the contracts consolidated.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

crodrules said:


> The problem is that if people don't want the locals (or drop them because they don't want to pay that high of a price) then Dish would still be on the hook to pay for those channels. A lot of these broadcasters (maybe even most of them) are demanding payment for every subscriber in the market, whether the subscriber pays for locals or not. Dish is not going to just eat that cost, so that means that our bills would still go up, even if we choose not to subscribe to the locals. Meanwhile, Directv does not even give their subscribers the option to drop the locals, so that idea is a non-starter for them...


I did not know that the broadcasters charge Dish for every subscriber, even if they do not sub to the locals. Now that is unfair and I doubt that would be legal. How can you charge someone for something they do not get? Go back to East/West networks. That would solve the issue. The subscriber may not be happy, but there would not be constant disputes. At this rate Dish or Direct will not be carrying locals anywhere as they will be priced out of the market.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

James Long said:


> There is still good vs garbage ... although with marketing some people are likely to take down an excellent old style antenna and replace it with a less excellent "HD" antenna.
> 
> What happens when the signal is poor or when one has too much signal has certainly changed from the analog days. Watching a marginal station through the static was a lot easier than watching a marginal station through dropouts and glitches. I do not remember having "too much signal" until I started trying to receive digital feeds.


I use the Antenna Direct 91XG, high gain UHF Yagi. I live 12.2 air miles from the translators varying from 586 watts ERP to 6.2 KW. All do well LOS. I also have a Channel Master amp, which I probably do not need as the signal strength is from 94% to 100% on all of them. I had wondered running the higher powered translators if the amp would affect the signal being too strong, but so far no issues.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> I did not know that the broadcasters charge Dish for every subscriber, even if they do not sub to the locals. Now that is unfair and I doubt that would be legal. How can you charge someone for something they do not get? Go back to East/West networks. That would solve the issue. The subscriber may not be happy, but there would not be constant disputes. At this rate Dish or Direct will not be carrying locals anywhere as they will be priced out of the market.


These days, even the distant networks require retransmission consent. I seem to remember that Directv had to temporarily drop some of the east/west networks when that change went into effect, since they could not reach a contract by the deadline. So, I could see the networks purposely staggering their contact expiration dates, to guarantee that there would be at least one major network in dispute every year.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

techguy88 said:


> FYI for any lurking readers who maybe thinking of cancelling Dish Network for DirecTV, AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now double check your market's other locals. It appears Tenga & Nexstar has a lot of markets where they both own stations. AT&T maybe forced to black out Tenga stations if they don't reach a new deal/extension by November 30, 2020. If both AT&T and Dish have to pull Tenga & Nexstar locals this means both DirecTV will be missing the Tenga station(s) and Dish will be potentially missing the Nexstar station(s) in the same market at the same time.
> 
> Switching providers during these disputes is not the answer.


Yep, our Tenga station is running logos on DirecTv telling people to switch to Comcast. I called them and told them they were greedy and called DirecTv and said I was in favor of dropping them. For that matter, DirecTv should drop all locals and drop the price $15 per package. Ill even go out and put up antennas for customers in my area if they do.
My HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0 Quatto NexGen receiver is fantastic (even tho there are no ATSC 3.0 channels here yet). I can stream it on Roku, Fire, Android, Computer, record with its own DVR or Plex Server. Plus I have a Tivo OTA box, so I am paying for locals for nothing. I never watch them on DirecTv at all.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

crodrules said:


> These days, even the distant networks require retransmission consent. I seem to remember that Directv had to temporarily drop some of the east/west networks when that change went into effect, since they could not reach a contract by the deadline. So, I could see the networks purposely staggering their contact expiration dates, to guarantee that there would be at least one major network in dispute every year.


If there is no other way around this is to give the networks what they want, a lot less viewers. That is unless everyone goes back to cable, but there are disputes with cable these days. They would lose a lot of subs, but so would the networks. It may come to that. I am surprised OTA doesn't charge re-transmission fees to the viewers. It may come to that in the future, but by that time, people will just get their TV shows via streaming. 
I wonder are the distribution fees for cable and streaming services, the same? Or is satellite singled out so unfairly? 
I have a friend in Canada that lives out in the boonies. He has Shaw satellite and has I think Seattle Networks and Super Stations. I wonder if Shaw has to pay a U.S. company for re transmission fees?


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

crodrules said:


> These days, even the distant networks require retransmission consent. I seem to remember that Directv had to temporarily drop some of the east/west networks when that change went into effect, since they could not reach a contract by the deadline. So, I could see the networks purposely staggering their contact expiration dates, to guarantee that there would be at least one major network in dispute every year.


There really isn't a such thing as "distant networks" anymore where STELLAR was allowed to lapse. AT&T had to go back to Disney (ABC), Fox Corp. (Fox), NBCUniversal (NBC) and ViacomCBS (CBS & CW) and negotiate directly with those networks on the terms, conditions & price/subscriber for out of market subscribers to get those networks. That is why in some markets where a person used to be grandfathered into all 5 only got say 3 after the negotiations were complete. In The CW's case the east coast affiliate was replaced entirely with the standardized The CW Plus feed (owned by The CW themselves) typically reserved for cable companies in small markets that lack a CW affiliate.


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## krel (Mar 20, 2013)

Davenlr said:


> Yep, our Tenga station is running logos on DirecTv telling people to switch to Comcast. I called them and told them they were greedy and called DirecTv and said I was in favor of dropping them. For that matter, DirecTv should drop all locals and drop the price $15 per package. Ill even go out and put up antennas for customers in my area if they do.
> My HDHomeRun ATSC 3.0 Quatto NexGen receiver is fantastic (even tho there are no ATSC 3.0 channels here yet). I can stream it on Roku, Fire, Android, Computer, record with its own DVR or Plex Server. Plus I have a Tivo OTA box, so I am paying for locals for nothing. I never watch them on DirecTv at all.


i wish DTV would do what dish does. by allowing customers to drop the locals and picking them up via antenna and have em intergrate with the genie guide


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

techguy88 said:


> There really isn't a such thing as "distant networks" anymore where STELLAR was allowed to lapse. AT&T had to go back to Disney (ABC), Fox Corp. (Fox), NBCUniversal (NBC) and ViacomCBS (CBS & CW) and negotiate directly with those networks on the terms, conditions & price/subscriber for out of market subscribers to get those networks. That is why in some markets where a person used to be grandfathered into all 5 only got say 3 after the negotiations were complete. In The CW's case the east coast affiliate was replaced entirely with the standardized The CW Plus feed (owned by The CW themselves) typically reserved for cable companies in small markets that lack a CW affiliate.


Things are so complicated and expensive running locals. Is it really worth Direct or Dish to carry them? This war cannot continue, unless Dish/Direct wants to pony up the HUGE increases in fees. That doesn't seem to be the case, so there will be and end one way of another. Sure, some subs may go back to cable, but what else can Direct/Dish do?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

techguy88 said:


> There really isn't a such thing as "distant networks" anymore where STELLAR was allowed to lapse.


You are in a DISH Network thread - Welcome to the world where STELLAR did not lapse.

DISH network met and continues to meet the requirements to continue to offer distant networks as defined under the law under the terms defined by law. Payment for the distant networks DISH delivers goes to the copyright office at a statutory rate where the copyright holders can claim compensation for their content. There is no negotiation between DISH and the distant channels they carry for price.

DISH does not offer blocked east/west distant networks the way DIRECTV did. Where needed, DISH will provide an out of market distant station to fill in a "short market" that is missing one or more of the major networks. DISH's choice of station is from a neighboring market ... not one of the coastal stations. To the untrained observer it appears that DISH is not carrying distants - but they continue to rely on the distants laws to carry many channels across the country.

All that being said, DISH usually changes distant stations or takes them down when the station they are using as a distant is no longer carried as a local. If any of the Nexstar stations are being used as a distant customers will see their station change to another network affiliate. What DISH cannot do is offer a distant in a market where an affiliate of that network exists. The distants law does not allow that type of fill in.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

mwdxer said:


> Things are so complicated and expensive running locals. Is it really worth Direct or Dish to carry them? This war cannot continue, unless Dish/Direct wants to pony up the HUGE increases in fees. That doesn't seem to be the case, so there will be and end one way of another. Sure, some subs may go back to cable, but what else can Direct/Dish do?


I'm going off my swiss-cheesed memory here, so the timeline may be off...

When I was first subscribed to Dish Network in 2001 (just prior to 9/11.... dang, that's a long time ago!), the only local stations that were carried were ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox. Because of a change in the DBS carriage rules that took effect at the end of 2001, all of the stations in a DMA had the option to require carriage. This was just an extension of the cable carriage rules that went into effect in the 1990s where a station can negotiate a fee to be carried on a cable provider, or state "you must carry our (religious) station" and waive compensation.

It also used to be that the major networks paid the local stations to carry their programming. That's no longer the case for ages, especially as adverting revenue has decreased and the programming rights cost have increased. This was especially true when Fox snatched the NFC Football rights from CBS to put that network on the map and had the local Fox affiliates pick up some of the cost.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

James Long said:


> You are in a DISH Network thread - Welcome to the world where STELLAR did not lapse.
> 
> DISH network met and continues to meet the requirements to continue to offer distant networks as defined under the law under the terms defined by law. Payment for the distant networks DISH delivers goes to the copyright office at a statutory rate where the copyright holders can claim compensation for their content. There is no negotiation between DISH and the distant channels they carry for price.
> 
> ...


I like your enthusiasm to defend Dish against DirecTV whenever possible however there is a difference between distant network services (NY/LA feeds) and neighboring locals. However STELAR lapsed for Dish Network customers on December 1, 2006 when they were legally barred from providing DNS because EchoStar/Dish broke the laws. From 2006 - 2014 if a Dish customer was eligible for DNS (NY/LA feeds) they had to go through All American Direct (IIRC) which was a third party and those customers had to pay the third party the fees not Dish. In contrast DirecTV never used a third party and included DNS fees on customer's DirecTV bills. DirecTV customers with both DNS and LIL from 2006 - 2020 were grandfathered DirecTV never sold DNS to non-qualified customers.

This bit from the 2006 article pretty much sums up the point (emphasis mine):



> To be eligible legally to buy distant signals via satellite, a customer isn't supposed to have over-the-air access to local network programming. Federal courts have found that *EchoStar repeatedly sold distant signals to hundreds of thousands of ineligible customers*. TV stations sued EchoStar to defend their advertising revenue from wanton invasion by distant signals.


The process you are describing is what cable companies have done for years by importing neighboring locals or significantly viewed locals. Neighboring locals have the exclusive rights to a neighboring DMA until an in-market affiliate becomes available.

For example two of my locals, WVAH (Fox, operated by Sinclair owned by Cunningham) and WQCW (CW, Gray), were imported into the Bluefield - Beckley - Oak Hills, WV DMA on cable until WVVA's second subchannel became that market's CW affiliate and WVNS's second subchannel became that market's Fox affiliate.

A good example of this is Zanesville, OH DMA that only has a NBC (WHIZ) and PBS (WOUC) affiliates. Affiliates from Columbus, OH for ABC (Sinclair's WSYX), CBS (Tegna's WBNS) and Fox (Cunningham's WTTE operated by Sinclair) have the exclusive rights to the Zanesville, OH DMA and fill in the gaps on both Dish and DirecTV.

The national The CW Plus feed, owned by The CW, acts as the de facto CW affiliate. Dish doesn't have an agreement in place for The CW Plus so Dish doesn't have a CW affiliate for this market. Charter Spectrum & DirecTV do have agreements in place for The CW Plus so they use the national CW Plus feed for Zanesville, OH. Currently DirecTV is in a dispute with Tegna and can't import another CBS affiliate to this market. The same would be true for Dish if they are ever in a dispute with Sinclair or Tegna.

The other process you described is the significantly viewed local scenario where providers are able to import a neighboring local even if the market has a station affiliated with that same network. Cable providers have been doing what Dish does for years when they don't carry both side by side like they used to.

So saying STELAR "didn't collapse" for Dish but did for DirecTV is incorrect.

Dish was legally barred from using STELAR in 2006 due to violations. They haven't been paying the low copyright rate for imported locals since then. What locals they import to smaller markets are part of their regular retransmission consent agreements with the station owners. (Just like cable companies!)
DirecTV lost the rights to use the Distant Locals (NY/LA) at the rates established by the copyright office because AT&T refused to serve the 12 markets where they never offered locals. In 2020 AT&T had to negotiate directly with the networks to continue providing some form of Distant Locals (NY/LA) and are now using neighboring locals/significantly viewed locals in DMAs they have locals (just like cable companies & Dish!)


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

techguy88, I like your enthusiasm, but you are slightly off or just plain wrong on several points.


techguy88 said:


> there is a difference between distant network services (NY/LA feeds) and neighboring locals. However STELAR lapsed for Dish Network customers on December 1, 2006 when they were legally barred from providing DNS because EchoStar/Dish broke the laws.


STELAR did not lapse because STELAR did not even exist at that point. That happened during the SHVERA era. The whole point (for Dish) of the original STELA was to restore Dish's ability to provide distants. This was when the requirement to serve every local market was originally introduced, as a condition for Dish to get their distant networks license back. After December 1, 2006 (and before STELA) that same ban also prevented Dish from offering neighboring locals, so there was no difference between neighboring locals and distants at that point. Significantly Viewed channels were covered under the distants license for satellite. This is one of the things that STELA fixed, by moving Significantly Viewed channels to the locals license. However, in many short markets, Significantly Viewed stations do not cover the entire market, and/or Dish would have to split the market between two or more out-of-market affiliates of the same network, making it impractical to rely on Significantly Viewed stations to cover that market. So, Dish tends to rely on distants, rather than Significantly Viewed channels, to serve those markets.



techguy88 said:


> From 2006 - 2014 if a Dish customer was eligible for DNS (NY/LA feeds) they had to go through All American Direct (IIRC) which was a third party and those customers had to pay the third party the fees not Dish.


Slight correction there: All American Direct was mostly San Francisco (not LA) west coast feeds, and started out with Atlanta east coast feeds before switching to NY. All of those were in standard-def only. From 2009 to 2011, All American Direct also offered HD feeds from LA and Chicago. So, that would have been the only time when it would have been possible to receive NY/LA from All American Direct.



techguy88 said:


> In contrast DirecTV never used a third party and included DNS fees on customer's DirecTV bills.


Up until 1999, both Directv and Dish used the third-party PrimeTime 24 service, before that service got shut down. You are correct that those charges were bundled onto the Directv bill, though.



techguy88 said:


> DirecTV never sold DNS to non-qualified customers.


The broadcasters sued Directv, just like they sued Dish. The only difference is that Directv settled with the broadcasters before their case got to the stage where an injunction would be imposed, while Dish did not settle their case.



techguy88 said:


> Neighboring locals have the exclusive rights to a neighboring DMA until an in-market affiliate becomes available.





techguy88 said:


> A good example of this is Zanesville, OH DMA that only has a NBC (WHIZ) and PBS (WOUC) affiliates. Affiliates from Columbus, OH for ABC (Sinclair's WSYX), CBS (Tegna's WBNS) and Fox (Cunningham's WTTE operated by Sinclair) have the exclusive rights to the Zanesville, OH DMA and fill in the gaps on both Dish and DirecTV.





techguy88 said:


> Currently DirecTV is in a dispute with Tegna and can't import another CBS affiliate to this market. The same would be true for Dish if they are ever in a dispute with Sinclair or Tegna.


Dish has had multiple disputes with all of these station owners over the years since Dish's distants license was restored in 2010, and each time Dish did in fact import a different distant (nearby local, usually from Cleveland or Youngstown) to serve the Zanesville market during that dispute. Even Directv had a dispute with Dispatch (then owner of WBNS) during this era, and Directv also temporarily imported a different CBS affiliate to serve Zanesville. The only reason why Directv may be unable to do so now is because they lost the distants license, for the reason you pointed out below:


techguy88 said:


> DirecTV lost the rights to use the Distant Locals (NY/LA) at the rates established by the copyright office because AT&T refused to serve the 12 markets where they never offered locals.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

techguy88 said:


> Dish was legally barred from using STELAR in 2006 due to violations. They haven't been paying the low copyright rate for imported locals since then. What locals they import to smaller markets are part of their regular retransmission consent agreements with the station owners. (Just like cable companies!)


False. While DISH did lose distants in 2006 they regained the ability to offer distants several years later when Congress changed the law to give a satellite carrier blocked from carrying distants by an injunction (effectively DISH) a waiver of their court imposed penalty if they met certain criteria (offering carriage to local stations in every market by a deadline that they met). The same standard that all satellite carriers were asked to meet earlier this year. AT&T|DIRECTV followed another path.

DISH retained distant stations this year and continues to rely on the law to pay a statutory rate (instead of private contracts).

There are neighboring market stations on both systems that are carried under "significantly viewed" laws. But DISH has distants beyond where significantly viewed would allow carriage.



techguy88 said:


> DirecTV lost the rights to use the Distant Locals (NY/LA) at the rates established by the copyright office because AT&T refused to serve the 12 markets where they never offered locals. In 2020 AT&T had to negotiate directly with the networks to continue providing some form of Distant Locals (NY/LA) and are now using neighboring locals/significantly viewed locals in DMAs they have locals (just like cable companies & Dish!)


Not like DISH.

While DIRECTV customers know distants as being NY/LA or NY/SF or other pairs of cities the legal definition of distants does not require all distants to originate in the same two markets. Any out of market station can be used as a distant in markets where distants are allowed - at least for carriers who comply with the current law.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Any out of market station can be used as a distant in markets where distants are allowed - at least for carriers who comply with the current law.


Does it still have to be in the same or later time zone?


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Does Directv regain the ability to offer distants without negotiating for retransmission consent if Directv suddenly starts serving those 12 remaining markets with locals?


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Mark Holtz said:


> I'm going off my swiss-cheesed memory here, so the timeline may be off...
> 
> When I was first subscribed to Dish Network in 2001 (just prior to 9/11.... dang, that's a long time ago!), the only local stations that were carried were ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox. Because of a change in the DBS carriage rules that took effect at the end of 2001, all of the stations in a DMA had the option to require carriage. This was just an extension of the cable carriage rules that went into effect in the 1990s where a station can negotiate a fee to be carried on a cable provider, or state "you must carry our (religious) station" and waive compensation.
> 
> It also used to be that the major networks paid the local stations to carry their programming. That's no longer the case for ages, especially as adverting revenue has decreased and the programming rights cost have increased. This was especially true when Fox snatched the NFC Football rights from CBS to put that network on the map and had the local Fox affiliates pick up some of the cost.


Yes, I started with Dish in 1999 when we had the East/West Nets. The main reason I moved to Dish at the time was because I could no longer get everything off my big dish, where I also had East/West nets and the Super stations. But something will have to be done in not the too distant future, or else locals will no longer we carried. I doubt Dish or the subscriber wants to pay $25 or more a month for just locals.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

James Long said:


> False. While DISH did lose distants in 2006 they regained the ability to offer distants several years later when Congress changed the law to give a satellite carrier blocked from carrying distants by an injunction (effectively DISH) a waiver of their court imposed penalty if they met certain criteria (offering carriage to local stations in every market by a deadline that they met). The same standard that all satellite carriers were asked to meet earlier this year. AT&T|DIRECTV followed another path.
> 
> DISH retained distant stations this year and continues to rely on the law to pay a statutory rate (instead of private contracts).
> 
> ...


Why can't Dish just fill in a missing Network while the dispute is going on? Is there any rule against that? At least the subscriber would still have access to a Network. If they cannot, something needs to change. If the station owners realized that the viewer wouldn't lose their network programming, they probably would compromise a lot quicker.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> Yes, I started with Dish in 1999 when we had the East/West Nets. The main reason I moved to Dish at the time was because I could no longer get everything off my big dish, where I also had East/West nets and the Super stations. But something will have to be done in not the too distant future, or else locals will no longer we carried. *I doubt Dish or the subscriber wants to pay $25 or more a month for just locals.*


Well, with the way Dish prices Welcome Pack, if all you want are the locals, you pretty much have to pay a lot more than that to get them.



mwdxer said:


> Why can't Dish just fill in a missing Network while the dispute is going on? *Is there any rule against that?* ...


Yes, there is. In-market affiliates have the exclusive right to serve that market with their network. The exceptions are:

The few markets that have more than one in-market affiliate of certain networks
Significantly Viewed channels
Markets with specific exemptions under the law. (There are two counties in Vermont designated for out-of-state markets. Due to a special exemption for Vermont, those counties each get their in-market locals plus Burlington, VT locals.)

Even with Significantly Viewed channels, those stations can only be carried if the in-market affiliate is already being carried, so they cannot be used as fill-in distants during a dispute.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> Does it still have to be in the same or later time zone?


I believe that restriction remains in place. It normally does not affect DISH since they grab an out of market station from a spotbeam that covers the market in question.



crodrules said:


> Does Directv regain the ability to offer distants without negotiating for retransmission consent if Directv suddenly starts serving those 12 remaining markets with locals?


Yes. Unlike DISH's waiver of injunction restoration of distants, there is no time limit for DIRECTV to regain distants by offering locals in every market.

The down side for DIRECTV would be that they would be required to follow the current rules. Grandfathering would not be available. I believe most of their customers expect granfathered distants (in addition to their local networks stations). The "side deals" they have in place serve their need better than the law.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

And the Nexstar channels are down ....

Uplink Activity for December 2020


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## Chillaxx2020 (Dec 3, 2020)

James Long said:


> And the Nexstar channels are down ....
> 
> Uplink Activity for December 2020


And we just lost NBC in Austin Tx


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

my Nexstar CBS local is now running ads that Dish took the local away and to call and demand it back. This means this damn station is going to be running scrolls like crazy like when it was taken off D* last year.


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## renbutler (Oct 17, 2008)

So we lost CBS and FOX in Indianapolis, but I can get them through locast on the Hopper.

Is locast new to Dish/Hopper? We've also been missing WNDY and WISH-TV since I subscribed in January, but I've never seen the locast option before now.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Locast went live in Indianapolis Oct 28th. The app has been on receivers for at least a year ... useless outside of a Locast market, but it should have been there.


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## renbutler (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks, that would have been nice to know months ago. I mentioned several times upon subscribing that I was unhappy about not getting WISH or WNDY, but nobody at Dish ever mentioned anything about Locast. The messages on those channels still say nothing about it.

Conversely, the newly blacked out channels pop up a message that takes me directly to Locast.

Weirdly inconsistent. Dish has not been a strong alternative for me in virtually any way.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> Locast went live in Indianapolis Oct 28th. *The app has been on receivers for at least a year ...* useless outside of a Locast market, but it should have been there.


More like two years now. As an interesting bit of trivia, Dish added the Locast app right before their dispute with... wait for it... Tegna, which is currently in dispute with Directv.


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## Wayne2017 (Apr 4, 2018)

mwdxer said:


> Yes, I started with Dish in 1999 when we had the East/West Nets. The main reason I moved to Dish at the time was because I could no longer get everything off my big dish, where I also had East/West nets and the Super stations. But something will have to be done in not the too distant future, or else locals will no longer we carried. I doubt Dish or the subscriber wants to pay $25 or more a month for just locals.


In the 80's Prime time 24 charged $3.95 for 3 channels on the east coast.

Now on cable 24 channels (including the dignity and WGN America) are $39.53, including the retransmission fee. So $12.00 monthly for locals is a super deal. Hey ESPN charges providers $11+ monthly for 1 channel that you must take, because of greedy Disney. Just my two cents.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Wayne2017 said:


> In the 80's Prime time 24 charged $3.95 for 3 channels on the east coast.
> 
> Now on cable 24 channels (including the dignity and WGN America) are $39.53, including the retransmission fee. So $12.00 monthly for locals is a super deal. ...


Yes, but you cannot get that $12 price without also buying a bunch of additional programming. The closest Dish has to a "lifeline" basic package of just the locals is a (rumored) Locals Only package in the $30 price range. This is only slightly cheaper than Welcome Pack, which also includes locals at $34.99 per month. The "Locals Only" option may only be offered as a retention package, though. So, you would have to threaten to cancel your service (or actually cancel your service, and then have Dish "win you back") before you could get Locals Only.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

renbutler said:


> Thanks, that would have been nice to know months ago. I mentioned several times upon subscribing that I was unhappy about not getting WISH or WNDY, but nobody at Dish ever mentioned anything about Locast. The messages on those channels still say nothing about it.
> 
> Conversely, the newly blacked out channels pop up a message that takes me directly to Locast.
> 
> Weirdly inconsistent. Dish has not been a strong alternative for me in virtually any way.


Within the next few years neither Dish or Direct may not be a viable carrier for any networks. Face it, the station owners want too much money. Considering with COVID, I would think both Nexstar, Tegna, and Apollo would be a bit more understanding. But it just proves that Corporate America continues to be nasty and greedy without any caring of the viewer. I wish this message would get out there more. But with streaming, more people are just subscribing to their favorite service to get the programming they want and also paying a bit more so they don't have to view ads.They have bypassed the TV station. These constant increases should be boycotted, as the stations are also making money with ads. They don't seem to have an issue with regular OTA viewers, but as soon as cable or satellite comes into view, their hands are out. They also control what local station we can get. Sorry to go on so long, but it really ticks me off.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

If anything, the TV stations and programming providers are oblivious to the fact that the pre-1980s television model, where there were three networks and maybe one-two independent stations were in a television market and it was rare that a family owned more than one television. We're moved beyond recording shows for later playback, and are able to watch the latest episode on a streaming service on _our_ schedule.


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## Joybandit (Mar 7, 2003)

Ive lost my local ABC, FOX, and a few of the superstations including WGN. I understand and agree with Dish that the demands from Nexstar and ridiculous. I sure don’t need my bill to go higher than it already is. I have an antenna outside antenna and the reception of the locals is spotty at best. NBC doesn’t come in at all. Too bad Dish can’t add a easy/west feed from ABC, NBC, CBS. I’d love dish to add Antenna TV and Decades TV too.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

We lost both of our ABC outlets, WTEN (10) and WVNY (22), and one Fox outlet, WFFF (22). Oddly, our other Fox outlet, WXXA (23), is owned by Shield Media but is operated by Nexstar, and is still on Dish. In a "sister station" arrangement, the Fox station broadcasts the WTEN newscasts. We have alternate sources for the programming on the lost stations, so it's not an issue for us at this point.


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## Wayne2017 (Apr 4, 2018)

crodrules said:


> Yes, but you cannot get that $12 price without also buying a bunch of additional programming. The closest Dish has to a "lifeline" basic package of just the locals is a (rumored) Locals Only package in the $30 price range. This is only slightly cheaper than Welcome Pack, which also includes locals at $34.99 per month. The "Locals Only" option may only be offered as a retention package, though. So, you would have to threaten to cancel your service (or actually cancel your service, and then have Dish "win you back") before you could get Locals Only.


Maryland PBS, with no ads has repeater towers thru our state. Everyone gets a good picture without a service provider. The networks (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC etc.) Do not do this in Maryland. Instead they make even more money by charging your service provider a retransmission fee. We should not even have commercials anymore with this greedy income. If cable/satellite dropped all of them they would then survive off of ads like they did before congress said they could charge this and also passed a out of market network can not be used. So back up or black outs. Call your provider and tell them you demand your stations back at a higher and higher fee, so the greedy can rake it in. Call/write your congress man/woman and complain, don't do it here as it will fall on deaf ears. Just my two cents.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Mark Holtz said:


> it was rare that a family owned more than one television.


Not that rare. We simply put our working television on top of our non-working television.


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## renbutler (Oct 17, 2008)

The word "greedy" is being thrown around way too recklessly.

Dish wants to keep prices low, and Nexstar has a threshold where they believe they can be profitable. If they can't work out a deal, nobody's really to blame -- sometime business deals just don't work out.

If Nexstar is willing to make $0 instead of the amount Dish is willing to accept, then they probably have a reason for doing so.

But I like when providers don't pay more than they think a package is worth, in order to keep prices reasonable.

However, ultimately, I paid for programming that I'm no longer receiving. I know there is no guarantee that programming won't change, but it seems like we lose a lot more channels than we ever add.

Bottom line, if the programming package is reduced, so should my bill.


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## sswheeler (Aug 27, 2008)

I use and OTA also to get my locals, so we are lucky that this fighting back and forth does not affect us this time. WGN, never watch it. With the issue in the Des Moines market, it will not populate the titles of the diginets in the guides. I wish this would be resolved.


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## renbutler (Oct 17, 2008)

I like that there's a workaround (OTA or Locast, for example)...

...but not being able to DVR programming is a real problem. That's how I watch most of my programming, and even live sports often calls for pausing or rewinding live TV.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

renbutler said:


> I like that there's a workaround (OTA or Locast, for example)...
> 
> ...but not being able to DVR programming is a real problem. That's how I watch most of my programming, and even live sports often calls for pausing or rewinding live TV.


Don't know how Locast works.

But if you can get OTA you can also get an OTA DVR like Amazon's Recast or AirTV products. There are others.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Wayne2017 said:


> Maryland PBS, with no ads has repeater towers thru our state. Everyone gets a good picture without a service provider. The networks (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC etc.) Do not do this in Maryland. Instead they make even more money by charging your service provider a retransmission fee. We should not even have commercials anymore with this greedy income. If cable/satellite dropped all of them they would then survive off of ads like they did before congress said they could charge this and also passed a out of market network can not be used. So back up or black outs. Call your provider and tell them you demand your stations back at a higher and higher fee, so the greedy can rake it in. Call/write your congress man/woman and complain, don't do it here as it will fall on deaf ears. Just my two cents.


I don't think PBS station is paid by Dish or Direct are they? I have never seen a dispute with a PBS stations. What is wrong, that "any" TV station is paid re-transmission fees. Before those days we had no issues. I guess you can blame Congress on that.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

renbutler said:


> I like that there's a workaround (OTA or Locast, for example)...
> 
> ...but not being able to DVR programming is a real problem. That's how I watch most of my programming, and even live sports often calls for pausing or rewinding live TV.


Take a look at Stremium (formerly FitzyTV) - Streaming TV Platform & Cloud DVR. At $5/mo per 25 hours, you can record Locast channels and many more. The app is available for most devices and there's a 7 day free trial.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

sswheeler said:


> I use and OTA also to get my locals, so we are lucky that this fighting back and forth does not affect us this time. WGN, never watch it. With the issue in the Des Moines market, it will not populate the titles of the diginets in the guides. I wish this would be resolved.


My two Nexstar stations, CBS & CW I have OTA. As far as the Super Stations WGN, KWGN, and KTLA. I can survive. I do like KTLA for LA News, but they stream their news and there are places I can find it streaming. Nearly everything is streaming in one form or another, so out options are better.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

One other thing, if this dispute goes on very long, I am going to ask Dish for a discount, since we are missing several stations. In the past they have offered that.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

mwdxer said:


> I don't think PBS station is paid by Dish or Direct are they? I have never seen a dispute with a PBS stations. What is wrong, that "any" TV station is paid re-transmission fees. Before those days we had no issues. I guess you can blame Congress on that.


PBS stations are not allowed "ReTransmission Consent " , they are strictly "Must Carry".


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## Wayne2017 (Apr 4, 2018)

renbutler said:


> I like that there's a workaround (OTA or Locast, for example)...
> 
> ...but not being able to DVR programming is a real problem. That's how I watch most of my programming, and even live sports often calls for pausing or rewinding live TV.


But You can add Stenium dvr service to Locast for $5.00 monthly.


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## Tiny (Feb 1, 2009)

Best Buy sells Tablo two tuner OTA DVR $99 I get my locals via OTA on a TCL roku tv it has a channel guide I’m getting 30+ channels in Chattanooga DMA Hats off to Dish for giving a option of not subscribing to locals that’s $12 saved ...


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Are KBVO(14) and KNVA(54) gone as well?


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mnassour said:


> Are KBVO(14) and KNVA(54) gone as well?


According to James Long's locals list, KNVA is still there. There is no KBVO on the list for Austin, and there are a couple of Carriage Dispute info channels (36 and 51).
Local Channels on DISH Network (Unofficial Listing)
*Austin, TX*
7-00 KTBC AUSTIN, TX (FOX) - 8253 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* () 5183 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* (fox) 5183 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A* (fox)
18-00 KLRU AUSTIN, TX (PBS) - 8256 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* () 5186 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* () 5186 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A* ()
24-00 KVUE AUSTIN, TX (ABC) - 8250 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* () 5180 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* (abc) 5180 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A* (abc)
33-00 NVUE (KVUE) AUSTIN, TX - 8259 SD 119° 5sB10 *A*
36-00 LOCAL CARRIAGE DISPUTE - 8252 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* () 5182 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* (nbc) 5182 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A* (nbc)
42-00 KEYE AUSTIN, TX (CBS) - 8251 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* () 5181 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* (cbs) 5181 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A* (cbs)
43-00 KEYED AUSTIN, TX (TELEMUNDO) - 8257 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* 5188 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* 5188 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A*
51-00 LOCAL CARRIAGE DISPUTE - 8260 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* 5185 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* 5185 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A*
54-00 KNVA AUSTIN, TX (CW) - 8254 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* 5184 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* 5184 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A*
62-00 KAKW KILLEEN, TX (UNIVISION) - 8258 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* 5187 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* 5187 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A*


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mnassour said:


> Are KBVO(14) and KNVA(54) gone as well?


KBVO is down ... KNVA is apparently up.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

KBVO is a Nexstar O&O station. KNVA is owned by Vaughan Media but operated by Nexstar via a LMA. In most (but not all) cases the LMA/JSA/SSA stations are on separate retransmission agreements than the Nexstar O&Os. 

This is similar to how Sinclair has all their O&Os and Tennis Channel (and in recent cases like AT&T and Spectrum the Marquee/Fox Sports/YES RSNs) on one retransmission consent agreement but their LMA's from Cunningham Broadcasting (and others) are on separate retransmission agreements.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Tiny said:


> Best Buy sells Tablo two tuner OTA DVR $99 I get my locals via OTA on a TCL roku tv it has a channel guide I'm getting 30+ channels in Chattanooga DMA Hats off to Dish for giving a option of not subscribing to locals that's $12 saved ...


Perhaps not obviously, the Tablo DVR doesn't include mass storage.

Do you get commercial skip without the premium guide service?


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

harsh said:


> Perhaps not obviously, the Tablo DVR doesn't include mass storage.
> 
> Do you get commercial skip without the premium guide service?


No, you need to have both the Premium Guide Subscription and another subscription IIRC for Commercial Skip.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Tiny said:


> Best Buy sells Tablo two tuner OTA DVR $99 I get my locals via OTA on a TCL roku tv it has a channel guide I'm getting 30+ channels in Chattanooga DMA Hats off to Dish for giving a option of not subscribing to locals that's $12 saved ...





Tiny said:


> Best Buy sells Tablo two tuner OTA DVR $99 I get my locals via OTA on a TCL roku tv it has a channel guide I'm getting 30+ channels in Chattanooga DMA Hats off to Dish for giving a option of not subscribing to locals that's $12 saved ...


I have the Recast Fire and it works well for OTA including a 500GB HDD and a free two week guide.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

mwdxer said:


> I have the Recast Fire and it works well for OTA including a 500GB HDD and a free two week guide.


I do too, though I have the 4 tuner 1TB HDD version. It should be noted that the Recast only works with FireTV streaming devices.

I also have an AirTV Anywhere 4 tuner 1TB HDD OTA DVR. The biggest advantage to it is that it works with almost any streaming box by using the SlingTV app.

Two downsides:
1. Guide is free, but only for one week
2. Audio is all stereo regardless of source material


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

lparsons21 said:


> I do too, though I have the 4 tuner 1TB HDD version. It should be noted that the Recast only works with FireTV streaming devices.
> 
> I also have an AirTV Anywhere 4 tuner 1TB HDD OTA DVR. The biggest advantage to it is that it works with almost any streaming box by using the SlingTV app.
> 
> ...


I considered the Air TV, but at the time I thought I had to subscribe to Sling. Later on someone said I didn't. I have two Fire boxes, two Roku's, and a Chromecast. The Recast dual tuner is really nice with these disputes. My OTA guide on the vip211k is not accurate on some of the OTA channels, where as the Recast is.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

mwdxer said:


> I considered the Air TV, but at the time I thought I had to subscribe to Sling. Later on someone said I didn't. I have two Fire boxes, two Roku's, and a Chromecast. The Recast dual tuner is really nice with these disputes. My OTA guide on the vip211k is not accurate on some of the OTA channels, where as the Recast is.


Yeah that was a bit confusing, still is though either the quick start guide or onscreen gave guidance to get a SlingTV logon for those that didn't actually sub to SlingTV. There used to be an AirTV app but that's gone now since they've incorporated it into the Sling app on all platforms.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Check for Tivo's with lifetime subs on Ebay. I use my Premier with my antenna, and it works great.


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

This is after the EW Scripps fight too early to recently too. I lost my Nashville CBS affiliate for so long I was able to get out of my contract. I had to move to Spectrum. Yeah they go up. But congress needs to step in here or these media companies are going to keep running away with more and more.

Nexstar owns my Nashville ABC affiliate, and Sinclair owns my NBC. So none are small company owned anymore. Sad really.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

xmguy said:


> This is after the EW Scripps fight too early to recently too. I lost my Nashville CBS affiliate for so long I was able to get out of my contract. I had to move to Spectrum. Yeah they go up. But congress needs to step in here or these media companies are going to keep running away with more and more.
> 
> Nexstar owns my Nashville ABC affiliate, and Sinclair owns my NBC. So none are small company owned anymore. Sad really.


If you generally want your locals, cable is probably your best bet. Your price increases, but generally at least Spectrum pays the piper. If I did not have the OTA antenna, would be apt to switch. But except for the Super Stations, I get the locals OTA.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

mwdxer said:


> If you generally want your locals, cable is probably your best bet. Your price increases, but generally at least Spectrum pays the piper. If I did not have the OTA antenna, would be apt to switch. But except for the Super Stations, I get the locals OTA.


Spectrum has blackouts as well they don't always cave. Last year before the Nexstar-Tribune merger was complete Spectrum had a blackout of all Tribune stations in January while AT&T later that year had a blackout of the Nexstar stations. Spectrum also highlighted during its Tribune dispute that the then Tribune forced WGN America carriage which is a channel very few people watch. (This echoes Dish's current statements about WGN America.)


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The worst part about cable is that they must deliver the locals they carry. Satellite companies are not obligated to sell or require purchase of a locals package. Cable companies are required to include the locals they carry in every TV package.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

James Long said:


> The worst part about cable is that they must deliver the locals they carry. Satellite companies are not obligated to sell or require purchase of a locals package. Cable companies are required to include the locals they carry in every TV package.


That's true I was just pointing out their billing practices in contrast to Dish & DirecTV. I think the below the line fees are bogus when I get a flyer from Suddenlink for my mom offering a $29.99/mo package of channels for 12 months (no mention of the broadcast or sports surcharges) then call in about the special just to find out the price is $51.64/mo due to the $15/mo broadcast station surcharge and the $6.65/mo sports programming surcharge.

At least when I called and inquired about Dish's America's Top 250 for them the price on the flyer was the actual price. They currently have DirecTV but at least DirecTV's flyers say Choice - Premier would have a RSN fee up to $9.99/mo and they currently have Preferred Xtra where they don't pay the RSN fee.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

crodrules said:


> According to James Long's locals list, KNVA is still there. There is no KBVO on the list for Austin, and there are a couple of Carriage Dispute info channels (36 and 51).
> Local Channels on DISH Network (Unofficial Listing)
> *Austin, TX*
> 7-00 KTBC AUSTIN, TX (FOX) - 8253 SD 119° 5sB10 *A* () 5183 *HD* 129° 12s48 *A* (fox) 5183 *HD* 61.5° 21s67 *A* (fox)
> ...


KBVO is a Nexstar O&O station and KNVA is owned by Vaughan Media but operated by Nexstar's KBVVO under a LMA. Vaughan Media is similar to Cunningham Broadcasting in the regards that all of Vaughan's stations are operated by a Nexstar O&O.

Under the current laws from the FCC Nexstar can't pull two stations in a market if they are part of the top 4 highest rated stations or both are an affiliate of a Big 4 network. (Applies to Full Powered Stations only not low powered or subchannels.)

Legally it is possible for both KBVO & KVNA to be pulled at the same time as long KNVA is not a top 4 rated station and it is a CW affiliate which is not a Big 4 network.

The only stations from Vaughan Media that is not a primary CW affiliate is WYTV (ABC) in the Youngstown, Ohio market. Nexstar owns the full powered WKBN (CBS) and the low powered WYFX-LD (Fox) stations. WKBN carries WYFX on its second subchannel in HD as well.

Nexstar pulled their O&O WKBN (CBS) & WYFX (Fox) affiliates but WYTV (ABC/MyNetworkTV) is still available on Dish due to the FCC law mentioned above.

Vaughan also owns KTKA (ABC) which is operated by Nexstar's KSNT. Only KSNT was pulled and KTKA remains available in Topeka, Kansas.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

techguy88 said:


> Legally it is possible for both KBVO & KVNA to be pulled at the same time as long KNVA is not a top 4 rated station and it is a CW affiliate which is not a Big 4 network.


So it must be all of those _Swamp Thing_ viewers who gave KNVA high enough ratings to save it from being pulled. (I am kidding.) Thanks for the information!


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

crodrules said:


> So it must be all of those _Swamp Thing_ viewers who gave KNVA high enough ratings to save it from being pulled. (I am kidding.) Thanks for the information!


Never underestimate the power of the hashtag rofl


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

techguy88 said:


> Spectrum also highlighted during its Tribune dispute that the then Tribune forced WGN America carriage which is a channel very few people watch. (This echoes Dish's current statements about WGN America.)


Dish also made the same statements during their dispute with Tribune four years ago. So, this argument about WGN America is nothing new.



techguy88 said:


> That's true I was just pointing out their billing practices in contrast to Dish & DirecTV. I think the below the line fees are bogus when I get a flyer from Suddenlink for my mom offering a $29.99/mo package of channels for 12 months (no mention of the broadcast or sports surcharges) then call in about the special just to find out the price is $51.64/mo due to the $15/mo broadcast station surcharge and the $6.65/mo sports programming surcharge.
> 
> At least when I called and inquired about Dish's America's Top 250 for them the price on the flyer was the actual price. They currently have DirecTV but at least DirecTV's flyers say Choice - Premier would have a RSN fee up to $9.99/mo and they currently have Preferred Xtra where they don't pay the RSN fee.


Dish also has RSN fees now, in the few regions where Dish still carries RSN's. The fees only range up to around $3 or so. Therefore, the bulk of the cost of the RSN's is likely still bundled into the price of the core basic package, that everyone across the entire country pays for that package, whether you still get your RSN's or not. Hopefully, this practice will get fixed when Dish makes their annual package price adjustments in January.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

crodrules said:


> Dish also made the same statements during their dispute with Tribune four years ago. So, this argument about WGN America is nothing new.


TBH I used to watch WGN America during _Married with Children_ reruns but when I discovered Hulu has the whole show in its correct aspect ratio (and not stretch-o-vision like WGNA) I don't watch WGN America anymore rofl.



crodrules said:


> Dish also has RSN fees now, in the few regions where Dish still carries RSN's. The fees only range up to around $3 or so. Therefore, the bulk of the cost of the RSN's is likely still bundled into the price of the core basic package, that everyone across the entire country pays for that package, whether you still get your RSN's or not. Hopefully, this practice will get fixed when Dish makes their annual package price adjustments in January.


Oh I forgot about that! However the only RSN they offer for my mom is AT&T SportsNet Pittsburgh. D* has Fox Sports Ohio, Fox Sports Cincinnati & SportsTime Ohio (Choice and above) along with AT&T SportsNet Pittsburgh in Xtra and above (excluding Preferred Xtra.) Since E* just offers the AT&T SportsNet RSN my mon's area isn't charged an RSN fee according to the rep I spoke to a few months back.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

techguy88 said:


> TBH I used to watch WGN America during _Married with Children_ reruns but when I discovered Hulu has the whole show in its correct aspect ratio (and not stretch-o-vision like WGNA) I don't watch WGN America anymore rofl.
> 
> Oh I forgot about that! However the only RSN they offer for my mom is AT&T SportsNet Pittsburgh. D* has Fox Sports Ohio, Fox Sports Cincinnati & SportsTime Ohio (Choice and above) along with AT&T SportsNet Pittsburgh in Xtra and above (excluding Preferred Xtra.) Since E* just offers the AT&T SportsNet RSN my mon's area isn't charged an RSN fee according to the rep I spoke to a few months back.


My son has Hulu, Prime, etc he could care less about the disputes. He watches everything on demand.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mwdxer said:


> He watches everything on demand.


That isn't an option (yet) for many Regional Sports Networks. Amazon Prime has been bulking up in their live sports but it is mostly limited to the professional leagues.


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## Chillaxx2020 (Dec 3, 2020)

I called Dish today to see if there was any discount for losing some channels here in Austin, the agent said she could send me an OTA for free & we would be able to watch the local missing channels with that. Also said when (if) the missing channels come back, we could either return it or keep it if we wanted to. 
Agent said they are working with Nextstar to resolve the dispute.


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

mwdxer said:


> Add to that, if you use an OTA antenna, you get the diginets. Dish does carry a few, but many are not carried. For our rural area, 26 offerings are fantastic. I will say one thing, the station owners gave us the free TV out here and it costs hundred's of thousands to install and keep the translators on. They do a great job on keeping them on the air with our stormy weather in the Winter.


translators?


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

satcrazy said:


> translators?


Low-power stations that rebroadcast the signal of another station, to serve areas not reached by the primary broadcast.


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

renbutler said:


> Thanks, that would have been nice to know months ago. I mentioned several times upon subscribing that I was unhappy about not getting WISH or WNDY, but nobody at Dish ever mentioned anything about Locast. The messages on those channels still say nothing about it.
> 
> Conversely, the newly blacked out channels pop up a message that takes me directly to Locast.
> 
> Weirdly inconsistent. Dish has not been a strong alternative for me in virtually any way.


What about price?


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

crodrules said:


> Low-power stations that rebroadcast the signal of another station, to serve areas not reached by the primary broadcast.


thanks.


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## KevinRS (Oct 9, 2007)

mwdxer said:


> Add to that, if you use an OTA antenna, you get the diginets. Dish does carry a few, but many are not carried. For our rural area, 26 offerings are fantastic. I will say one thing, the station owners gave us the free TV out here and it costs hundred's of thousands to install and keep the translators on. They do a great job on keeping them on the air with our stormy weather in the Winter.


That would be nice, but around here, we are on the wrong side of the mountains with 500,000 other people in the DMA, and there are no translators, in a DMA of 18.5 million, 500k is less than 3% and so gets left out. Since it's been this way forever, so most either have cable through the monopoly or satellite. That makes it less attractive for the broadcasters to add translators. 
I would really think that with the monopoly granted to the broadcasters they would have an obligation to get signal to the whole DMA, either by broadcast signal or free carriage or even carriage paid by the broadcasters on cable and satellite.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Chillaxx2020 said:


> I called Dish today to see if there was any discount for losing some channels here in Austin, the agent said she could send me an OTA for free & we would be able to watch the local missing channels with that. Also said when (if) the missing channels come back, we could either return it or keep it if we wanted to.
> Agent said they are working with Nextstar to resolve the dispute.


Good luck. Should offer a discount for WGN/KTLA/KWGN though.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

satcrazy said:


> translators?


Yes, we have 5 translators on the Northern Oregon Coast.
ABC Sinclair 
NBC Tegna
CBS Nexstar
PBS Oregon Public BC
Fox Meredith
My TV Meredith
CW Nexstar

Also a lot of sub channels like METV, Comet, Stadium, Crime, Qwest, Get TV, Bounce, Grit, TBD, Antenna TV, Cozi, etc. So a good deal for us out here, as there is no OTA TV other than the translators. They are all owned by the TV stations.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

KevinRS said:


> That would be nice, but around here, we are on the wrong side of the mountains with 500,000 other people in the DMA, and there are no translators, in a DMA of 18.5 million, 500k is less than 3% and so gets left out. Since it's been this way forever, so most either have cable through the monopoly or satellite. That makes it less attractive for the broadcasters to add translators.
> I would really think that with the monopoly granted to the broadcasters they would have an obligation to get signal to the whole DMA, either by broadcast signal or free carriage or even carriage paid by the broadcasters on cable and satellite.


What state do you live in? Oregon has lots of translators. Eastern Washington has a lot, but few in Western Washington.


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

Being about 80 miles as the crow flies from my locals makes OTA useless. Even before they switched to HD the reception here was very poor. With the short range on HD its now nonexistent. In truth, we'll miss the superstations more than WGN channel 9 but that's not the poiint. There's a change in the way people get their TV and providers like Nexstar are just going to accelerate it. We still like the simplicity of getting everything from Dish but eventually we may be forced to go another route.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

BillJ said:


> Being about 80 miles as the crow flies from my locals makes OTA useless.


That's where translators come in. The Portland, Oregon DMA covers a linear stretch of almost 600 miles and the main towers are fairly near one end. There is also that Cascade Mountain range that runs down the middle.

The ABC affiliate, KATU, has 16 translators
The CBS affiliate, KOIN, has 14 translators
The NBC affiliate, KGW, has 16 translators
The Fox affiliate, KPTV, has 11 translators


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## Alsat (Jun 30, 2004)

renbutler said:


> I like that there's a workaround (OTA or Locast, for example)...
> 
> ...but not being able to DVR programming is a real problem. That's how I watch most of my programming, and even live sports often calls for pausing or rewinding live TV.


The 211 with the DVR option (one time $40 fee) records OTA channels fine, even works as a dual tuner to record an OTA and a satellite channel at the same time. Beats paying a monthly fee to Dish for dvr service.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

harsh said:


> That's where translators come in. The Portland, Oregon DMA covers a linear stretch of almost 600 miles and the main towers are fairly near one end. There is also that Cascade Mountain range that runs down the middle.
> 
> The ABC affiliate, KATU, has 16 translators
> The CBS affiliate, KOIN, has 14 translators
> ...


They are really great to have too! For years we had no OTA TV, other than a snowy analog signal from a couple Portland/Seattle stations with a deep fringe antenna. Out here along the coast, big antennas are not a good option, as we have high winds and the long elements would get knocked off. Fortunately all of our translators are on UHF (17-34), so even a long yagi, the elements are short so little issue with our winds. We are so thankful to have the Portland translators. Then, to top it off, Next Gen 3.0 hit last Fall and the Portland stations started to stack, so we went from 16 OTA offerings to 26. Between the OTA diginets, a few I stream, and some Dish carries, the only main one missing now is Decades.


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

More and more station owners keep doing this cause the owners keep seeing other owners doing this. The FCC should not allow this. 

All this is a money making scam.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

OneMarcilV said:


> All this is a money making scam.


Which is why businesses exist. The control needs to come from the TV carriers not caving to ridiculous demands.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

techguy88 said:


> FYI for any lurking readers who maybe thinking of cancelling Dish Network for DirecTV, AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now double check your market's other locals. It appears Tenga & Nexstar has a lot of markets where they both own stations. AT&T maybe forced to black out Tenga stations if they don't reach a new deal/extension by November 30, 2020. If both AT&T and Dish have to pull Tenga & Nexstar locals this means both DirecTV will be missing the Tenga station(s) and Dish will be potentially missing the Nexstar station(s) in the same market at the same time.
> 
> Switching providers during these disputes is not the answer.


This is exactly the case here in the Cleveland DMA. Tenga owns the NBC affiliate and Nexstar owns the FOX affiliate.

The majority of a nearby DMA (Youngstown, OH) has the majority of their network affiliates owned by Nexstar. Dish subscribers there will only get the locally owned NBC. The rest of the networks are owned or controlled by Nexstar.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

NYDutch said:


> For your limited OTA usage, might it be simpler to just get a Locast account and cast the programs to your TV from your phone or PC if you don't have Firestick or Roku?


Locast is limited to certain DMA's. Home - Locast


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Michael P said:


> This is exactly the case here in the Cleveland DMA. Tenga owns the NBC affiliate and Nexstar owns the FOX affiliate.


Similarly, in Columbus, Tegna owns the CBS affiliate, and Nexstar owns the NBC affiliate.



Michael P said:


> The majority of a nearby DMA (Youngstown, OH) has the majority of their network affiliates owned by Nexstar. Dish subscribers there will only get the locally owned NBC. The rest of the networks are owned or controlled by Nexstar.


It looks like Youngstown is still getting NBC, ABC, and PBS. Local Channels on DISH Network (Unofficial Listing)
*Youngstown, OH*
21-00 WFMJ YOUNGSTOWN, OH (NBC) - 7832 SD 110° 31s9 *A* () 5262 *HD* 129° 8s25 *A* (nbc) 5262 *HD* 61.5° 24s4 *A* (nbc)
27-00 LOCAL CARRIAGE DISPUTE - 7831 SD 110° 31s9 *A* () 5261 *HD* 129° 8s25 *A* (cbs) 5261 *HD* 61.5° 24s4 *A* (cbs)
33-00 WYTV YOUNGSTOWN, OH (ABC) - 7830 SD 110° 31s9 *A* () 5260 *HD* 129° 8s25 *A* (abc) 5260 *HD* 61.5° 24s4 *A* (abc)
45-00 WNEO ALLIANCE, OH (PBS) - 7834 SD 110° 31s9 *A* () 5264 *HD* 129° 8s25 *A* () 5264 *HD* 61.5° 24s4 *A* ()
62-00 LOCAL CARRIAGE DISPUTE - 7833 SD 110° 31s9 *A* () 5263 *HD* 129° 8s25 *A* (fox) 5263 *HD* 61.5° 24s4 *A* (fox)

Perhaps the ABC was not pulled, for the reasons pointed out earlier in this thread:



techguy88 said:


> Under the current laws from the FCC Nexstar can't pull two stations in a market if they are part of the top 4 highest rated stations or both are an affiliate of a Big 4 network. (Applies to Full Powered Stations only not low powered or subchannels.)


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

Michael P said:


> Locast is limited to certain DMA's. Home - Locast


Yes they are, and as has been mentioned in various posts, there are workarounds for getting the Locast served DMA nearest you or any other Locast served DMA.


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

harsh said:


> Which is why businesses exist. The control needs to come from the TV carriers not caving to ridiculous demands.


Very true.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

Michael P said:


> Locast is limited to certain DMA's. Home - Locast


Then choose a different market.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

NYDutch said:


> Yes they are, and as has been mentioned in various posts, there are workarounds for getting the Locast served DMA nearest you or any other Locast served DMA.


How do the workarounds work?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

OneMarcilV said:


> How do the workarounds work?
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


For a PC running Chrome or Firefox, the Location Guard extension or NordVPN usually work pretty well. For devices like FireTVsticks, etc, I use NordVPN, selecting one of the available cities that matches a Locast DMA, and I use the "Fake GPS" app on my Android phone to make my location appear to be a Locast served DMA. I don't know if there's a similar app for IOS. Not all options work for everyone though, so try a few if you run into problems. Oh, and I usually cast from my PC or phone to the TV instead of watching on the smaller screens.


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

NYDutch said:


> For a PC running Chrome or Firefox, the Location Guard extension or NordVPN usually work pretty well. For devices like FireTVsticks, etc, I use NordVPN, selecting one of the available cities that matches a Locast DMA, and I use the "Fake GPS" app on my Android phone to make my location appear to be a Locast served DMA. I don't know if there's a similar app for IOS. Not all options work for everyone though, so try a few if you run into problems. Oh, and I usually cast from my PC or phone to the TV instead of watching on the smaller screens.


How about on I iPad? That is what I should have asked.

Also would this work on ROKU?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

OneMarcilV said:


> How about on I iPad? That is what I should have asked.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I have no idea what's available for Apple devices for fooling geo-location systems. A VPN app maybe...


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

NYDutch said:


> For a PC running Chrome or Firefox, the Location Guard extension or NordVPN usually work pretty well. For devices like FireTVsticks, etc, I use NordVPN, selecting one of the available cities that matches a Locast DMA, and I use the "Fake GPS" app on my Android phone to make my location appear to be a Locast served DMA. I don't know if there's a similar app for IOS. Not all options work for everyone though, so try a few if you run into problems. Oh, and I usually cast from my PC or phone to the TV instead of watching on the smaller screens.


I work-around does work. However, how can you pay the $5 a month using a different DMA, to avoid the constant popups.? I wouldn't mind paying Locast, if I could the channels without popups. Any suggestions?


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

NYDutch said:


> I have no idea what's available for Apple devices for fooling geo-location systems. A VPN app maybe...


The applications in the search in the Apple Store do not have very good reviews.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

mwdxer said:


> I work-around does work. However, how can you pay the $5 a month using a different DMA, to avoid the constant popups.? I wouldn't mind paying Locast, if I could the channels without popups. Any suggestions?


Locast has that 5.00 a month option? If so I can do that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

Just added Locast channel to my ROKU device.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

NYDutch said:


> For a PC running Chrome or Firefox, the Location Guard extension or NordVPN usually work pretty well. For devices like FireTVsticks, etc, I use NordVPN, selecting one of the available cities that matches a Locast DMA, and I use the "Fake GPS" app on my Android phone to make my location appear to be a Locast served DMA. I don't know if there's a similar app for IOS. Not all options work for everyone though, so try a few if you run into problems. Oh, and I usually cast from my PC or phone to the TV instead of watching on the smaller screens.


I installed Nord VPN on my iPad .Costs like 11.95 per month for the subscription. Hopefully this is all that I will need.

Locast wants geo location. That does not allow other markets.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

OneMarcilV said:


> Locast has that 5.00 a month option? If so I can do that.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Using a VPN, could I pay for Locast? Could they trace the VISA/MC address?


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

OneMarcilV said:


> I installed Nord VPN on my iPad .*Costs like 11.95 per month for the subscription.* Hopefully this is all that I will need.
> 
> Locast wants geo location. That does not allow other markets.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Good grief! You might as well just pay Dish the $12 per month for locals, and "move" your service address to a market where Dish isn't having any local disputes.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> Using a VPN, could I pay for Locast? Could they trace the VISA/MC address?


Locast doesn't care who pays for the subscription. You could be giving it as a gift for a relative who lives in that market, for all they know.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

crodrules said:


> It looks like Youngstown is still getting NBC, ABC, and PBS.





crodrules said:


> Perhaps the ABC was not pulled, for the reasons pointed out earlier in this thread:


Well, Dish did just remove the OTA guide mapping from the satellite-delivered feed of WYTV, so maybe they are getting ready to pull that channel after all.
*Other Changes*
7830 WYTV (33 Local) YOUNGSTOWN, OH (ABC) 110° 31s9 (NWPennsylvania) SD Youngstown, OH market Hidden - OTA Mapping Removed (33-01) xED Added


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

mwdxer said:


> I work-around does work. However, how can you pay the $5 a month using a different DMA, to avoid the constant popups.? I wouldn't mind paying Locast, if I could the channels without popups. Any suggestions?


I pay the $5/month to Locast via Paypal and use any DMA they serve using the methods I mentioned.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

crodrules said:


> Good grief! You might as well just pay Dish the $12 per month for locals, and "move" your service address to a market where Dish isn't having any local disputes.


I mentioned NordVPN because I know it works for me. I subscribed for other reasons besides Locast, and got in on a 3-year deal that brought the cost down to ~$3/month. I know there are other VPN's available that cost less than Nord, but I don't know how well they work with Locast. One advantage with Locast over a Dish CONUS beamed local is that I can choose the closest DMA to me for news and weather without regard to any Dish disputes.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I use a VPN for security while on vacation (encrypting all communications). It makes sense for an RVr (on permanent vacation) to buy such a service. I don't pay $12 per month, but I do pay annually.

I have been with DISH 17 years ... a couple of disputes in my area (my first couple years DISH did not offer locals in my market). I never missed them enough to take extreme measures.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

A little context may be in order: In most of those 17 years, Locast wasn't an option and the station groups hadn't grown so large as to take out multiple stations with a single dispute.


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

crodrules said:


> Good grief! You might as well just pay Dish the $12 per month for locals, and "move" your service address to a market where Dish isn't having any local disputes.


DISH does not allow this.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

OneMarcilV said:


> DISH does not allow this.


Sure they do. Customers in RV's change their service address with Dish to get different locals all of the time.


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

crodrules said:


> Sure they do. Customers in RV's change their service address with Dish to get different locals all of the time.


I am not lucky enough to to own a RV.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

crodrules said:


> Similarly, in Columbus, Tegna owns the CBS affiliate, and Nexstar owns the NBC affiliate.
> 
> It looks like Youngstown is still getting NBC, ABC, and PBS. Local Channels on DISH Network (Unofficial Listing)
> *Youngstown, OH*
> ...


WFMJ-NBC is a rarity in today's world it is still independently owned. WYTV-ABC is owned by Vaughn Media (essentially a Nexstar sidecar.)



crodrules said:


> Well, Dish did just remove the OTA guide mapping from the satellite-delivered feed of WYTV, so maybe they are getting ready to pull that channel after all.
> *Other Changes*
> 7830 WYTV (33 Local) YOUNGSTOWN, OH (ABC) 110° 31s9 (NWPennsylvania) SD Youngstown, OH market Hidden - OTA Mapping Removed (33-01) xED Added


Legally it is possible for the O&O's of a large company (i.e. Nexstar or Sinclair) to go off at one time while stations owned by another party in a shared services agreement to go off at a later date (or vice versa.) They just can't be part of the larger retransmission consent agreement and go off at the exact same time during a dispute.

In 2019 AT&T almost had this occur. Early in the year DirecTV had a blackout of local stations owned by Deerfield Media, GoCom Media, Howard Stirk Holdings, HSH, Mercury Broadcasting, MPS Media, KMTR Television, Second Generation of Iowa and Waitt Broadcasting. Most of these stations have a type of shared service agreements with the Sinclair O&O of their market. AT&T filed a bad faith complaint against all nine companies in June because the companies would not negotiate independently with AT&T instead collectively going through a third party called Max Retrans.

While those stations were already blacked out, Sinclair's retransmission consent agreement was about to expire in September 2019 for their O&O stations and Tennis Channel. However AT&T and Sinclair were able to reach a new agreement in October after accepting a few short term extensions. This ultimately lead to AT&T integrating the Fox Sports/YES RSNs into their Sinclair retransmission consent agreement and adding Marquee at launch on D*, AT&T TV and AT&T TV Now.

By November 2019 only two of the nine companies reached independent retransmission consent agreements with AT&T. The remaining seven companies were found to be acting in bad faith by the FCC for not independently negotiating with AT&T and were ordered by the FCC to do so immediately. If they did not comply the FCC reserved the right to fine each station. Shortly after in a domino effect AT&T reached independent deals with those seven companies.

AT&T's bad faith complaint against the owners of these stations was notable as it was a rare case of the FCC stepping in and forcing the owners to negotiate in good faith. Normally the FCC usually has a justification to dismiss these types of complaints.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

techguy88 said:


> Legally it is possible for the O&O's of a large company (i.e. Nexstar or Sinclair) to go off at one time while stations owned by another party in a shared services agreement to go off at a later date (or vice versa.) They just can't be part of the larger retransmission consent agreement and go off at the exact same time during a dispute.


Similarly, the disputes can be resolved separately, too, as we recently saw with Dish. Most of the small-market Cox Media Group stations are back, while the larger-market stations owned by Apollo are still being held hostage.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Lets stay away from tutorials on how to use VPNs to receive out of market stations and promotion of VPN companies for that purpose. That is not the purpose of this thread or our forums.


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## OneMarcilV (Jul 24, 2020)

K


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

Youngstown ,OH lost CBS , Fox and STO has been gone for over a Year -- This sucks


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

crodrules said:


> Similarly, the disputes can be resolved separately, too, as we recently saw with Dish. Most of the small-market Cox Media Group stations are back, while the larger-market stations owned by Apollo are still being held hostage.


The Apollo-Dish situation is a unique one and does not occur often. It is mainly a situation of combining the former Northwest stations and the OG Cox stations into one agreement. Northwest were paid higher fees by Dish than the OG Cox stations were. It is worth noting the website banners on the former Northwest stations for Dish customers are currently gone. They were up on those websites as late as yesterday. Also inputting zip codes from areas with a former Northwest station at Dish Promise either return a no dispute in your area message or Nexstar has blocked out a station message now.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

techguy88 said:


> The Apollo-Dish situation is a unique one and does not occur often. It is mainly a situation of combining the former Northwest stations and the OG Cox stations into one agreement. Northwest were paid higher fees by Dish than the OG Cox stations were. It is worth noting the website banners on the former Northwest stations for Dish customers are currently gone. They were up on those websites as late as yesterday. Also inputting zip codes from areas with a former Northwest station at Dish Promise either return a no dispute in your area message or Nexstar has blocked out a station message now.


Those stations have returned to Dish today, per the uplink report. It is interesting that those stations are the ones that were already getting the higher fees, yet that dispute lasted longer than the dispute over the other Cox stations. If they wanted the same terms for all of their stations, then it looks like the Northwest stations held out for *less* money.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

crodrules said:


> Those stations have returned to Dish today, per the uplink report. It is interesting that those stations are the ones that were already getting the higher fees, yet that dispute lasted longer than the dispute over the other Cox stations. If they wanted the same terms for all of their stations, then it looks like the Northwest stations held out for *less* money.


Or the Cox stations had their fees increased  These terms are not usually discussed. The only reason we know the 2019 Northwest agreement had higher fees than the 2019 Cox agreement is due to Dish's lawsuit filing. Have Dish or Cox released a press release yet about the situation? I'm only seeing news sources but no press release yet and Dish is very good with the press releases in relation to disputes.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Apparently the Apollo/Cox stations removed in July. I don't see press releases from either side - but the channels were restored.

July: Apollo cuts DISH customer access to its local stations in 10 markets | Dish


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

techguy88 said:


> Have Dish or Cox released a press release yet about the situation?


Scott Greczkowski posted it over on satelliteguys. I'm not sure of his source, but it reads like a Dish press release:

_*DISH and Cox Media Group reach multi-year carriage agreement, restore local Cox stations for DISH customers*

ENGLEWOOD, Colo., December 13, 2020 - DISH today has reached a multi-year agreement with Cox Media Group, owned by Apollo Global Management, for carriage of its local Northwest stations. This agreement also restores local Cox stations for DISH customers, including:

● WSB-TV, Channel 2 (ABC, Atlanta, GA)
● WFXT-TV, Channel 25 (Fox, Boston, MA)
● WSOC-TV, Channel 9 (ABC, Charlotte, NC)
● WAXN-TV, Channel 64 (IND, Charlotte, NC)
● WHIO-TV, Channel 7 (CBS, Dayton, OH)
● WFOX-TV, Channel 30 (Fox, Jacksonville, FL)
● WFOX2-TV, Channel 32 (MNT, Jacksonville, FL)
● WHBQ-TV, Channel 13 (Fox, Memphis, TN)
● WFTV-TV, Channel 9 (ABC, Orlando, FL)
● WRDQ-TV, Channel 27 (IND, Orlando, FL)
● WPXI-TV, Channel 11 (NBC, Pittsburgh, PA)
● KIRO-TV, Channel 7 (CBS, Seattle, WA)
● KOKI-TV, Channel 23 (Fox, Tulsa, OK)
● KMYT-TV, Channel 41 (MNT, Tulsa, OK)

Terms of the agreement were not disclosed.

_
However, the remaining Cox-owned stations had already been restored earlier this month, without any such announcement:

Uplink Activity Updates » Blog Archive » 12/2/20 at 7:14pm ET (v13) - 66 changes seen


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Interesting about Nexstar as some lost the OTA guide on this Dish receivers. Some didn't. Glad to see Apollo agreement. Hopefully one will be forthcoming for Nexstar. I feel it was terrible to have this dispute now. They are always bad, but during COVID and also during the Christmas season?


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> Interesting about Nexstar as some lost the OTA guide on this Dish receivers. Some didn't.


Hopefully, most people didn't. Dish had a massive uplink in the middle of November to provide separate OTA guide data streams for the Nexstar stations, and remove the link to the satellite-delivered version's guide data. However, that is a huge total number of stations affected, so it may be understandable that some of them slipped through the cracks, and did not get covered by that first uplink. Dish had another such uplink recently, apparently to fix this issue with some more of the Nexstar stations. There may still be some that Dish did not catch yet, though. Also, there is the looming possibility that even more stations will be dropped if this dispute drags on long enough. (The Vaughn Media stations operated by Nexstar.) So, some of those stations may also end up having the same issue when they get dropped.

The same thing happened at the start of the Apollo dispute. That one seemed to catch Dish off-guard, as they did not prepare for it in advance with separate OTA guide data streams, like they normally do for these local channel disputes. Dish had to do the uplink later, well after the start of the dispute, to fix this issue.

Here is the uplink that came after the Nexstar dispute started, to add separate OTA guide data streams for some channels, and remove the guide data link from the local dispute message channels:
Uplink Activity Updates » Blog Archive » 12/4/20 at 4:29pm ET (v30) - 18 changes seen


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I expect some issues with the channels the day that the OTA EPG moves between the satellite channel and the OTA guide channel. It may take until the next day for the guide to reload correctly and pair the correct channel to the OTA signal. Each transition also provides a chance that there is an error (such as missing a channel or getting something wrong in the way the channels are flagged). There are also places with translators where the guide for OTA is never correct - I do not expect the restoration of LIL channels to fix that problem.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

That is interesting, so Dish is getting their OTA guide from a different vendor? My old KOIN guide was messed up on the 211k. Now it is accurate. Fortunately I get most of the Portland OTA stations via translators. Only few are missing. As we have no translators for ION, TBN, or a couple lp stations. Otherwise the rest we get. That all changed for the better this last Fall with the "stacking" with NextGen 3.0.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

No recent vendor change ... what I was referring to is how the EPG is matched to an OTA channel. It isn't a perfect system.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

crodrules said:


> Scott Greczkowski posted it over on satelliteguys. I'm not sure of his source, but it reads like a Dish press release:
> 
> _*DISH and Cox Media Group reach multi-year carriage agreement, restore local Cox stations for DISH customers*
> 
> ...


Ah so if correct then that means the new agreement covers both the Northwest stations & the OG Cox stations. Would explain why the Northwest stations removed their Dish banners on their websites today.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

James Long said:


> No recent vendor change ... what I was referring to is how the EPG is matched to an OTA channel. It isn't a perfect system.


Well, whatever Dish did, works well on KOIN-CBS. Too bad they do not do the same thing for the rest of our OTA locals. They used have all of the channels they had EPG info were correct.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> Well, whatever Dish did, works well on KOIN-CBS. Too bad they do not do the same thing for the rest of our OTA locals. They used have all of the channels they had EPG info were correct.


Maybe it is your local translator that changed something, such as changing the TSID (Transport Stream ID) they are broadcasting, to match the TSID that Dish uses for that station in their guide database. Some translators can use the same TSID as the main station, apparently, based on OTA guide data results myself and others have gotten from translators. However, if there are any differences between the translator and the originating station (such as the translator carrying a different subchannel than the main station carries, for example) then each station must use a unique TSID. If you recently re-scanned your OTA locals, that also could have updated your OTA guide data links. This can either cause them to match the TSID for the Dish-provided data (fixing any issues) or potentially break the link to Dish's guide data, which causes issues.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

crodrules said:


> Maybe it is your local translator that changed something, such as changing the TSID (Transport Stream ID) they are broadcasting, to match the TSID that Dish uses for that station in their guide database. Some translators can use the same TSID as the main station, apparently, based on OTA guide data results myself and others have gotten from translators. However, if there are any differences between the translator and the originating station (such as the translator carrying a different subchannel than the main station carries, for example) then each station must use a unique TSID. If you recently re-scanned your OTA locals, that also could have updated your OTA guide data links. This can either cause them to match the TSID for the Dish-provided data (fixing any issues) or potentially break the link to Dish's guide data, which causes issues.


I don't think so, as the OTA guide I get on my Recast and other tuners are always accurate. The issue is with the 211k, The guides on several channels are messed up. Have been for a couple years. Our ABC KATU shows a PBS guide, NBC shows a MYTV guide, etc. Our sub channel for Antenna TV shows a Get TV guide. So if I want to record something on those channels I need to use a generic timer.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mwdxer said:


> Our ABC KATU shows a PBS guide, NBC shows a MYTV guide, etc. Our sub channel for Antenna TV shows a Get TV guide. So if I want to record something on those channels I need to use a generic timer.


If DISH had to carry a separate listing for each translator, it would take an extra hour to download the guide (and complicate things enormously for low-RAM machines like the ViP211). Making the information available via the Internet on a case-by-case basis is a much simpler proposition than making the information available to the entirety of the Western Arc (since the guide data is delivered at the Arc level).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The matching alogrhythm for other devices is not the same. DISH relies on the stations to transmit one exact TSID for each station that they are matching. Any deviation from the TSID DISH expects to see is a mismatch that will lead to either no information or the wrong station's information being displayed. They do not use any other data (such as zip codes, IP geolocation, physical channel or virtual channel) to make the match. The transmitted TSID must match the TSID in DISH's data. (The subchannel number is also in DISH's data - to match subchannel 1, 2, 3 etc. But DISH relies on the TSID to identify the station being received.)

This means a translator using a different TSID than the main station (for any reason) and stations that share a transmission due to the repack will not have the correct EPG on DISH for the OTA reception. Any errors in the match will lead to missing EPG.

Non-DISH receivers use different matching methods.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

harsh said:


> If DISH had to carry a separate listing for each translator, it would take an extra hour to download the guide (and complicate things enormously for low-RAM machines like the ViP211). Making the information available via the Internet on a case-by-case basis is a much simpler proposition than making the information available to the entirety of the Western Arc (since the guide data is delivered at the Arc level).


It is interesting, for years the EPG was totally accurate on the channels Dish has guides for. But it has been a mess for a few years. One thing rather interesting, I hooked up my spare 211k, not authorized, it does get the OTA channels and an accurate guide. So I wonder if the vip211k's memory may not handle all of the EPG of today. Back when the 211k was built, we had less channels. Of course the non authorized vip211k I have only gets the barker channels and the OTAs, so little EPG data is needed. Just a thought...


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

James Long said:


> The matching alogrhythm for other devices is not the same. DISH relies on the stations to transmit one exact TSID for each station that they are matching. Any deviation from the TSID DISH expects to see is a mismatch that will lead to either no information or the wrong station's information being displayed. They do not use any other data (such as zip codes, IP geolocation, physical channel or virtual channel) to make the match. The transmitted TSID must match the TSID in DISH's data. (The subchannel number is also in DISH's data - to match subchannel 1, 2, 3 etc. But DISH relies on the TSID to identify the station being received.)
> 
> This means a translator using a different TSID than the main station (for any reason) and stations that share a transmission due to the repack will not have the correct EPG on DISH for the OTA reception. Any errors in the match will lead to missing EPG.


Yes, 4 out of 5 of our translators have "Re-packed", but even before that, the guide was messed up. I called some of the stations, but they claim the info sent out to Dish is correct. I cannot disagree, as all other OTA guides work. But I still wonder if it has something to do with the vip211k's memory or how it processes OTA guides?


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

mwdxer said:


> It is interesting, for years the EPG was totally accurate on the channels Dish has guides for. But it has been a mess for a few years. One thing rather interesting, I hooked up my spare 211k, not authorized, it does get the OTA channels and an accurate guide. So I wonder if the vip211k's memory may not handle all of the EPG of today. Back when the 211k was built, we had less channels. Of course the non authorized vip211k I have only gets the barker channels and the OTAs, so little EPG data is needed. Just a thought...


I would say that something got screwed up in your old ViP211k's memory, that is causing the mismatch with the OTA guide data. If deleting all of your OTA channels from that receiver and rescanning the OTA channels has not fixed the issue, then why not just activate your spare ViP211k (with the correct OTA guide data) and see what happens? You could then manually transfer all of your settings and timers to that ViP211k, and deactivate the old ViP211k, demoting that one to being a spare instead.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It is odd that it is working on one 211k and not the other. Perhaps a firmware change if there have been any updates since the spare was taken offline?
I like the theory that the lower number of subscribed channels is helping the 211k - but even on a subscribed receiver the number of channels an individual subscriber sees should not be excessive. DISH discards the EPG for hidden unsubscribed channels. Non hidden channels should still be in the guide stored on the receiver as "unsubscribed" (although not seen unless one selects "unsubscribed" in the guide).

OTA is a little different since one no longer has to be subscribed to locals to see the guide data. But there have been a lot of changes over the years. There have been times where customers could only see EPG for their own market and not neighboring markets. Sometimes some customers could see neighboring stations while others could not. When all works well OTA EPG is available - but it is easier for things not to work well.

DISH's focus is on the channels carried via satellite. If anything else works it is a bonus. Especially on sub channels. It has been years since I tried, but the people I talked to at DISH executive office didn't seem to understand where the EPG comes from. They claimed that the actual guide data presented was received OTA instead of via satellite. If that were true there would be a lot more guide data for local subchannels in the guide ... and no channels in the 14xxx/15xxx range providing EPG. There was talk a few years ago about DISH receivers using the Internet to download additional guide data but I have not seen that occur. I really do not expect improvements.

I appreciate that there is some effort made to provide an EPG for OTA when a local channel has been taken down in a dispute. That is certainly an improvement over a few years ago when a dropped channel meant no EPG for the OTA.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> I appreciate that there is some effort made to provide an EPG for OTA when a local channel has been taken down in a dispute. That is certainly an improvement over a few years ago when a dropped channel meant no EPG for the OTA.


James, I have been meaning to ask you why those separately-added OTA guide data streams for dropped channels do not appear in your Locals List: Local Channels on DISH Network (Unofficial Listing)

For example, in Cleveland, Ohio WJW has been lost due to the Nexstar dispute. There is a separate OTA guide data stream uplinked for WJW, so the OTA channel still has guide data. However, WJW 8-01 is completely missing from your list of OTA guide data for Cleveland:
_*Cleveland, OH*
...
OTA Program Guide Data: 
3-01 WKYC TSID 0x08CD, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5202/8512) 
3-02 WKYC2 TSID 0x08CD, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14666) 
5-01 WEWS TSID 0x08CF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5200/8510) 
12-01 WMFD TSID 0x08F1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 8522) 
19-01 WOIO TSID 0x08FD, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5201/8511) 
19-02 WOIO2 TSID 0x08FD, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14875) 
23-01 WVPX TSID 0x08AF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5212/8524) 
25-01 WVIZ TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5206/8516) 
25-02 WVIZ2 TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14668) 
25-03 WVIZ3 TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 03 (DISH Channel 15187) 
25-04 WVIZ4 TSID 0x08D3, Subchannel 04 (DISH Channel 14531) 
43-01 WUAB TSID 0x08EF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5205/8515) 
43-02 WUAB2 TSID 0x08EF, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14667) 
47-01 WRLM TSID 0x08BF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 8523) 
49-01 WEAO TSID 0x08B1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5210/8520) 
49-02 WEAO2 TSID 0x08B1, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14529) 
55-01 WBNX TSID 0x08B3, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5204/8514) 
61-01 WQHS TSID 0x08D5, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5211/8521)

_
It is the same way for every market that I have checked where there is a dispute. I was just curious why that happens.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

crodrules said:


> I would say that something got screwed up in your old ViP211k's memory, that is causing the mismatch with the OTA guide data. If deleting all of your OTA channels from that receiver and rescanning the OTA channels has not fixed the issue, then why not just activate your spare ViP211k (with the correct OTA guide data) and see what happens? You could then manually transfer all of your settings and timers to that ViP211k, and deactivate the old ViP211k, demoting that one to being a spare instead.


I got the spare for a backup as my old 211k has had glitch issues as I figured it was dying, but so far it still works. The issue of moving over to the other 211k, is I would lose everything on my HDD. Too bad I cannot move to a different receiver and not lose the stuff on the outboard HDD.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

You shouldn't - long as your account doesn't change. At least it works that way on DVRs with external harddrives.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> James, I have been meaning to ask you why those separately-added OTA guide data streams for dropped channels do not appear in your Locals List: Local Channels on DISH Network (Unofficial Listing)


The 14xxx/15xxx channels do not have market information - just the TSID-Subchannel.

13198 WJW 08D1-01

For the -02,-03 subchannels I match them against the beginning of the call letters for the -01 stations. If the call letters don't appear on a channel with a market flag the subchannels don't get associated with a market on my list.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

scooper said:


> You shouldn't - long as your account doesn't change. At least it works that way on DVRs with external harddrives.


Exactly! Moving an external hard drive from one ViP211 to another ViP211 on the same account works just fine. the same holds true for moving an external hard drive from one Wally to another Wally on the same account, which I have actually done. The issue comes when upgrading from a ViP211 to a Wally, or when downgrading from a Wally to a ViP211. In either of those cases, the receiver will ask you to reformat the drive, which will erase of the recordings. These models (ViP211 series and Wally) were intended to be compatible with each other as far as the external hard drives. However, Dish has never gotten that to work properly in my experience.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> The 14xxx/15xxx channels do not have market information - just the TSID-Subchannel.
> 
> 13198 WJW 08D1-01
> 
> For the -02,-03 subchannels I match them against the beginning of the call letters for the -01 stations. If the call letters don't appear on a channel with a market flag the subchannels don't get associated with a market on my list.


Thanks for the explanation. The lack of the dropped local channels from your OTA guide data list (and the lack of channels that may potentially be in an upcoming dispute, since Dish usually makes these kind of changes well before expiration of their contract to carry the channels) does make it convenient to tell at a glance which markets may be about to experience a dispute, or are already in a dispute. I used that fact in order to compile a list of the (very few) markets where Dish is not experiencing a local dispute, while both the Nexstar and Cox disputes were still going on simultaneously. Cox has now been resolved, so let's hope Nexstar also gets resolved relatively soon.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

crodrules said:


> Exactly! Moving an external hard drive from one ViP211 to another ViP211 on the same account works just fine. the same holds true for moving an external hard drive from one Wally to another Wally on the same account, which I have actually done. The issue comes when upgrading from a ViP211 to a Wally, or when downgrading from a Wally to a ViP211. In either of those cases, the receiver will ask you to reformat the drive, which will erase of the recordings. These models (ViP211 series and Wally) were intended to be compatible with each other as far as the external hard drives. However, Dish has never gotten that to work properly in my experience.


 I don't trust it. I would have to activate the other 211k to use the HHD I presume. If it didn't work, I would have to move back to my old 211k. There is a possibility something may happen. I already have my old 500GB HDD I started with. I took it out for sometime, as I got a 1tb. Several months ago when I re-hooked it up, the message said I had to re-formit it. I haven't, as I have been trying to figure out how to get it to work. Some glitch somewhere. However it may work on my other 211k, but again I would have to activate it.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

A deactivated 211k can still use the EHD for storing the 7-day guide, even without DVR functionality. So, you could still try hooking that hard drive up to the other 211k, just to see if that 211k will recognize that drive. If it works, then you could try activating the 211k, to see if it will let you watch the content. On the other hand, if it doesn't work, then there is something wrong with that particular hard drive.


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## dishrich (Apr 23, 2002)

All the Nexstar stations are back up, supers included...

Dish, Nexstar End Blackout With New Retrans Agreement | Broadcasting+Cable


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Yes, the Supers are back.....Thank you Dish....


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

It's a Christmas miracle!


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

crodrules said:


> It's a Christmas miracle!


Especially this soon. I expected this one to go on for months...


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Looks like we can put away the carriage dispute BINGO cards for a while.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

OneMarcilV said:


> Then choose a different market.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Geo-location prevents out of market Locast access. One possible work-around would be a VPN located in one of the Locast markets.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Good grief! You might as well just pay Dish the $12 per month for locals, and "move" your service address to a market where Dish isn't having any local disputes.


Dish will not sell you a subscription to an out-of-market DMA. Technically you would probably be out of the spot beam for the distant market too.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Similarly, in Columbus, Tegna owns the CBS affiliate, and Nexstar owns the NBC affiliate.
> 
> It looks like Youngstown is still getting NBC, ABC, and PBS. Local Channels on DISH Network (Unofficial Listing)
> *Youngstown, OH*
> ...


WYTV has an LMA with the Nexstar stations (CBS WKBN and FOX WFXT-LD). So Youngstown lost 2 of the "Big-4" networks during the dispute.


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## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Michael P said:


> Dish will not sell you a subscription to an out-of-market DMA. Technically you would probably be out of the spot beam for the distant market too.


There was a short list of markets posted (on that other satellite forum) where the locals are on CONUS, and where Dish was also not having any disputes at the time. Anyway, it is kind of a moot point for now, since this particular dispute has now been resolved.


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