# Custom Installations and Wall fishing



## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

I am a new member and I have been looking around for discussions about custom installation and wall fishing but the latest ones I have seen are about 2 years old. 

I came into the satellite industry years ago after working for alarm companies and home theater. The only way to run alarm wires is to fish and when it comes to custom home theater customers they don't put up with any visible wire. 

I would like to share my knowledge if anyone has an interest in custom work. I would also like to learn a few things as well.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Share away. This thread seems as good as any to start the discussion


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

One rule I have for myself is if I misplace a hole I will do anything that it takes to get the wire there. A pet peeve of mine is when an installer makes a hole in the wall and then decides it wont work. Then he proceeds to make swiss cheese out of the customers home.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Mmm... home made swiss cheese. 

What selection of tools are good to have on hand for wall fishing?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

thewallfisher said:


> I am a new member and I have been looking around for discussions about custom installation and wall fishing but the latest ones I have seen are about 2 years old.


You speak as if the technology of wall fishing has changed since the discovery of rare earth magnets.


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

My favorite and latest one is the newer Magnepull. Not any other brand or home made version. I have tried those they don't work. 

Labor Saving Devices brand glow rods. All the others give you splinters and don't bend as well. I hate the glow rods from the home improvement stores.

1/2" flex bits from 18" to 6' long.

Ridged "See Snake"

Wet noodle

12" Forceps

These are my most used tools. I have a lot of other stuff but I am kind of a tool junkie.


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

harsh said:


> You speak as if the technology of wall fishing has changed since the discovery of rare earth magnets.


I was just disappointed to see that they really didn't discuss much about techniques and tools.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Ah now that's what I like, actual brand recommendations. I will check out the magnet and glow rods.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Another VERY handy piece of wall-fishing gear is also super-cheap: a 3' length of half-twist chain from the hardware store. It's heavy enough to drop down walls nicely, completely flexible, and magnetic.










The size on the right is just about right.


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

I have been using the size on the left. I keep a few lengths in my magnepul kit. I think I'll get the larger size and try it out.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

I really like the Magnepull. How's it work for old homes with lathe and plaster walls?


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

I have used it with some success. The magnets on the Manepull XP are surprisingly strong. One thing to watch out for when fishing an old lathe wall is the plumbing, including the drain and vent pipes, are steel or Iron. If there is ferris metal in the wall the lead magnet will stick to it and you will have to go up in the attic and pull the wire back. If there is ferris metal in the wall the jack chain would be a better choice.

With such strong magnets the pull is so strong I can hear chunks of plaster chipping off the inside of the wall and fall to the bottom plate. While pulling the magnet you should expect some chunks to hang you up but just move it to the side and try pulling down again. 

This tool is not a magic bullet but it will work for most walls without fireblocks or bracing.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

You guys are talking about the easy stuff. Try an exterior wall with steel studs and blown-in insulation. Or a concrete block wall with sheet-foam insulation and 1/2" drywall.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

SayWhat? said:


> You guys are talking about the easy stuff. Try an exterior wall with steel studs and blown-in insulation. Or a concrete block wall with sheet-foam insulation and 1/2" drywall.


Yeah... that blown insulation is why I haven't crawled around in my attic to run ethernet connections to all of my rooms...

I had wanted to run ethernet all over the house, and run another coax in case I decide to put up an outdoor OTA antenna one day... but I do not look forward to crawling around in all of that insulation!

I have considered, however, seeing how hard it would be to fish up the wall... taking off a phone or coax wall plate and seeing if I could fish up from downstairs and then find that in the attic. I've been mostly too lazy to try it though.


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## Yoda-DBSguy (Nov 4, 2006)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I have considered, however, seeing how hard it would be to fish up the wall... taking off a phone or coax wall plate and seeing if I could fish up from downstairs and then find that in the attic. I've been mostly too lazy to try it though.


Fishing up a wall is near imposible since you typically have a header board in the attic that you would normally have to drill down though in order to drop a wire to begin with.

LSD brand glow rods or the magnapull accessory are the best and most efficient/fastest methods of completing the task as mentioned.


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

SayWhat? said:


> You guys are talking about the easy stuff. Try an exterior wall with steel studs and blown-in insulation. Or a concrete block wall with sheet-foam insulation and 1/2" drywall.


*Now your talkin!
I'll get into that later. I'm up past my bedtime.*


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I have considered, however, seeing how hard it would be to fish up the wall... taking off a phone or coax wall plate and seeing if I could fish up from downstairs and then find that in the attic. I've been mostly too lazy to try it though.


That all depends on how big a hole they drilled in the header when they ran the existing wire. Too many installers drill a 3/8" hole, just big enough for the coax. If that's the case, it would be nearly impossible to fish it. I have (on rare occasion) been able to hit that hole if it's a typical 5/8" hole used for Romex. It's pretty cool to run a fishtape up and go into the attic and be able to find it. But I stress it's *very* rare.

What I've had better luck with is using the existing wire as a pull wire. Disconnect it from the jack. If it's coax, you'll probably have to cut the F-connector off. Attach another wire to it *securely* that's long enough to go through the wall and leave enough to pull back down, probably 15-20' minimum. Phone/Cat5 wire s easy to do by twisting the conductors from both wires together and taping them. Coax is harder, but can be done. From the attic (or basement if the wire goes down), pull the existing wire out until you get the pull wire to where you can work with it. Attach the additional new wire to the pull wire with tape. From the living area, pull the whole assembly down and into the jack hole.

This may or may not work well depending on the size of the hole in the header plate and it won't get you away from dealing with the insulation.

For new homes, if at all possible, have extra conduits run wherever you might think you'll want a jack later on. They can just be stubbed into the attic or basement to where you can get to them later.


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

SayWhat? said:


> You guys are talking about the easy stuff. Try an exterior wall with steel studs and blown-in insulation. Or a concrete block wall with sheet-foam insulation and 1/2" drywall.


Exterior walls are not that difficult unless you are on the hip side of the roof. If you are able to get over the wall inside the attic it won't be much more difficult than an interior insulated wall.

If there are no obstructions in the wall such as fire breaks and bracing you can use the magnepull through blown in insulation or fiberglass bats. If it is stiff foam insulation then I would suggest drilling all the way down it. You will need a 1/2" X 6' flexbit and at least a 3' extension to go down an 8' wall. The drill bit will cut through the foam quite easily (if your are worried about the bit wandering you can put it in reverse) but you want to make sure you ride the stud all the way down the wall so you will know where to look for your wire. This also keeps you away from any electrical wiring or plumbing. When you drill don't just squeeze the trigger and blow through it, you need to drill in short bursts and try and feel your way down making sure you don't get hung up on anything and drill into something your not supposed to.

Now that you have your wire path get out your glow rods. Most glow rod kits allow you to connect each stick together to make longer rods. My favorite are the "Roy Rods" from Labor Saving Devices. Attach your coax to the end of the rod so you can push the wire and the rod down at the same time and send it down the hole. In this case I attach my wire loosely to the rod so when I hook onto it I can pull it off the rod so I don't have to try and pull the stiff fiberglass rod though my hole retrieval hole.

Now go down to the wall where your wire is going to come out of. To make it easy on yourself cut a hole for a cut-in box instead of drilling a small hole. A larger hole in the wall will make it a lot easier to retrieve the wire. With the case of rigid foam insulation get out your long 5/8" masonary bit (the masonary bit is usually fairly dull and is less likely to damage your glow rod) and drill through the foam to the corner inside the wall that your put your wire. To make it easier try to wallow out the hole to make it larger back where the wire and glow rod are.

To retrieve the wire I usually get a 18"-24" length of ground wire and strip about 6" off and make a small hook at the end. Now just hook your wire and pull it out.

Don't forget to go back in the attic and get your rods.

If its a steel stud insulated wall I would do the same things as mentioned above but with a few changes. Don't bother with a magnet inside the wall, it will just cause frustration. When you drill the top plate have a plastic grommet ready and use a step bit to make the correct size hole. Make sure you put the grommet in the hole before you send your glow rod or wire down it. The sharp metal will cut up your wire and your rod.


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

SayWhat? said:


> That all depends on how big a hole they drilled in the header when they ran the existing wire. Too many installers drill a 3/8" hole, just big enough for the coax. If that's the case, it would be nearly impossible to fish it. I have (on rare occasion) been able to hit that hole if it's a typical 5/8" hole used for Romex. It's pretty cool to run a fishtape up and go into the attic and be able to find it. But I stress it's *very* rare.
> 
> What I've had better luck with is using the existing wire as a pull wire. Disconnect it from the jack. If it's coax, you'll probably have to cut the F-connector off. Attach another wire to it *securely* that's long enough to go through the wall and leave enough to pull back down, probably 15-20' minimum. Phone/Cat5 wire s easy to do by twisting the conductors from both wires together and taping them. Coax is harder, but can be done. From the attic (or basement if the wire goes down), pull the existing wire out until you get the pull wire to where you can work with it. Attach the additional new wire to the pull wire with tape. From the living area, pull the whole assembly down and into the jack hole.
> 
> ...


If you can't use the existing wire you can use my favorite flex bit combination. 1/2" X 6' with a 4' extension. After you take the wall plate off send the drill bit up the wall following the corner of the wall cavity. If you get hung up a bit put the drill in reverse and give it a few short bursts. Once the bit reaches the top plate mark your drill shaft with electrical tape about 4"-5" from where its coming out the wall. This will let you know how far you drill so you don't keep going through a ceiling joist or the roof. On 8' exterior walls there is usually a double top plate ( two 2X4s). Because you have followed the corner of the wall cavity your bit will be vertical. When you drill use short burst again until you have reached your limit that you marked on the shaft. If you want to know if you have reached the attic space throw the drill back in reverse and continue to push it up the hole. If it goes a couple inches then you know you are up there. If it doesn't then you have more than likely hit a ceiling joist. If that is the case repeat the process on the other side of the wall cavity.

Now that you have your hole thread a pull wire (phone line works great) through the bullnose of your glow rod and send it up the wall. Don't tie or tape the wire to the rod. You are going to need to pull it off in the attic. The corner of the wall cavity is your guide and it should go right to the hole you drilled. Up in the attic take your grab pole (I like to use the "Grabbit" from Labor Saving Devices. The tip has a blade that will grab the wire) and find the rod with the wire threaded through the hole. Snag the wire and pull it to you and securely tie and tape the coax to it. Go back down stairs and pull your rod out and then pull your pull wire.


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## thewallfisher (Feb 1, 2011)

I think I will be adding videos or pictures to help explain some of this at some time.


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## brant (Jul 6, 2008)

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> Fishing up a wall is near imposible since you typically have a header board in the attic that you would normally have to drill down though in order to drop a wire to begin with.


someone makes a tool specifically for that.

i wish i could find the link because i've been wanting to purchase one for myself.

basically, you make the cut-out for your old-work box, and this thing has a trim ring you put around that hole to prevent damage; and they it has a clip to hold the fish bit and you send it up the wall to drill through the top plate.


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## wallfishman (Dec 31, 2008)

first off wallfisher this place aint big enough for the both of us !! haha

you got some good stuff there. when fishing an exterior wall i drill a 1 inch hole in the top plate and use the big fat greenlee fishsticks from home depot. i send the cable and the sticks down at the same time. coat hanger and a minute and im pulling the cable out. you right those greenlee fishsticks suck for the fiberglass scratching off. they are thick though and go right through insulation. 

for interior walls a chain and a flexible magnet. i dont think it can get any easier than that. if there is an existing box i use 9s and cut a few inches of the side of the box out. not the stud side. i usually dont try using the old cable to pull new cause if it was put in when house was built its stapled to the studs to pass inspection. half time it would break so after awhile i just stopped even trying cause i know i can fish it down in 2 minutes so why bother. when i use the chain i go in the attic once hopefully, drill hole big enough . i shove entire chain down and about 5 ft of cable and leave some slack so i can pull it all out. when i first started i would strip a piece of cable so the stinger is like 3 inches long. i took that and stuck it right through the ceiling directly above my hole. (try not to let customer see that, buts its like a thumbtack size hole) use that for a marker when im in attic. that was when i was by myself. most of my wallfishing career i paid a helper and 1 guy would just take the tube the glow rods came in, and bang on the ceiling above the hole so we knew where we were. 

about 10 years ago i had a contracting deal with comcast. i was given 4-6 custom jobs a day, every day thats all i did. none of their guys wanted to do / knew how to do. i tore them up for a small fortune for 6 years straight doing that. my wife rode around with me as my helper for a few years. i could write a book on that alone! 

another way i did alot was down return air vents from the basement to the attic. walk around the house for a minute you can tell which ones line up with the walls below. take the register off the wall on second floor and i would put a fitting on the cable and screw an hbo filter to that and drop it down. if that worked you just stuck a right angle drill in there and drill up to the attic and bingo u have a line from basement to attic. next to the sewer vent and next to chimney where 2 other spots id try if that didnt work. 

i worked in an area where it was either million dollar mansions or 100 yr old stone houses. the stone houses beleive it or not were easy as hell because the exterior walls were usually built on ferring strips . id go down in basement and fish up with sticks all the way to attic. 

you right about finishing once you made the hole. if you fishing wires and a batrooms on the other side , steer clear of the medicine cabinets !! ive had to completely remove a few of those and drill and fish behind them , then put them back just because like u said i already cut the hole !!

for first floor wallfish if its carpet i pull that pack and drill small hole in floor right below my hole. use that as guide go down basement drill up, chain magnet done. for hardwood i had these small ass drill bits id drill in the crack(when customer not looking) slide my toolbag over that if u know what i mean. i carried these wood filler crayons in a few different colors to hide that n u could never tell i did that
. 
for kitchens i would use same technique basically i would measure and go into room on other side of wall and drill guide hole in floor. drill up chain magnet. alot of kitchen were ceramic tile walls. i had 1 inch tile bits that went thru that like butter. i would line it up so my screw holes were in the joint and would just drill to 1/8 inch holes and use plastic anchors and the screws that came with wallplates. Ive messed some **** up but i can honestly say i never messed up a tile and i did hundreds that way. 

ive crawled in spots doing that job that i didnt even know if i could get back out. ive been in houses with additions and what not where i had to sawzall through old roofs that were built over, just to get into the attic. you learn to hate houses with additions that were built after the fact. you always run into something. 

In the last 25 years Ive damaged some things doing this work. I flooded an apartment building hitting a heater pipe one time. luckily i was an employee of that company on their insurance. Another house nI drilled into a waterline with a flexbit drilling down blind with a finished basement drywall ceiling, my plan was the drill through the bottom plate inside the wall and shove a bunch of wire thru it and go down in this heater room and use fishsticks to catch the cable n pull it to me. it was going good till water start squirting back at me., that sucked. that guy had brand new hardwood floors i dont know how the water didnt ruin it but it didnt. i had to cut a 2 ft hole in the ceiling below and get a plumber on that one. another time against my own judgemnt i listened to a stupid customer and drilled a hole right into the main electric feed of his whole house. had to get PECO out there shut his whole house off at the pole and me and my pop fixed that. After that i learned a valuble lesson about listening to people that have no idea whet they are doing or talking about. Im the professional show me what you want and please go find something to do while i do what i have to do. 

one time before i knew what i was doing cable co used to teach you to run thru closets to the attic, drill right thru ceiling in closet. this one house had totally wood floored attic. so my plan was to drill thru ceiling then push bit up a foot then drill the floor. i dont know what i was thinking cause where i was drilling was right next to exterior of house. so i drill thru ceiling , push bit up a ft and drill again. only problem was what i thought was the attic floor was the damn roof . shove up fishstick and was sticking out roof. i had this comical helper at the time he climbed out a window to the garage roof and silconed it up. never heard back on that one we laughed all the way to next job. those were probably my biggest screwups ., i drilled up drywall here and there , i carried fast setting mud to fix that on the spot. 

damn i cant beleive i wrote all that i could go on all day.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

See, in my day job I used to do Cat5 fishing all day. Now I'm a desk jockey.

If you get bored ask me about the day that got me reported to my boss for swearing too much. It involved 3 firewalls, no firestop and 6 AC ducts...


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## HerntDawg (Oct 6, 2008)

I have found a piece of 8 gauge solid copper to be useful in wall fishing.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Yeah... that blown insulation is why I haven't crawled around in my attic to run ethernet connections to all of my rooms...


Come on, man up! I did it and only put my foot through the ceiling once when I missed the joist. :lol:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Herdfan said:


> Come on, man up! I did it and only put my foot through the ceiling once when I missed the joist. :lol:


I bought a bunch of 2x10 boards when I bought my house and put them down the middle of my attic to provide a crawlway - although there have been times I've come close to creating a hole (other than the ones drilled down between the interior walls).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HerntDawg said:


> I have found a piece of 8 gauge solid copper to be useful in wall fishing.


I've found that fiberglass or steel is better as it doesn't curl or kink as readily when you hit a tight spot (and there's always a tight spot).


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## shadough (Dec 31, 2006)

When crawling around an attic, always have something longsleeve on (no matter how hot it is), gloves are usefull but you can usually get away bare-handing it (allthough some older insulation has larger shardes of glass in it that will get into the tough skin on your hands), and definitly a mask to prevent/reduce inhalation.

I generally determine where to drill down in the attic by familiarizing myself w/ the layout of the ceiling (Versus poking somethin up thru the drywall). things to look for: air-vents, fans, ceiling lights. These can be spotted in the attic. Try to create a mental picture of the room and its walls, up in the attic you follow that top stud of the wall to where you wanna drill down. Also note electrical outlets/light switches as those wire quite possibly go UP and you'll be able to see those lines come out of the studs up in the attic.

Tips:

- Try not to cut your outlet hole until you fish down the wall. That way you know you can get down it. Of course you can drill thru a cross stud but its always easier to find another location that doesnt have cross studing. *(Those wall fishing camera's are very usefull for looking down thru walls and seeing obstacles or finding your glow rod)

- Radon exhaust pipes are sometimes easy to fish to get up to the attic.

- if you hafta cut a hole to make it upstairs, try to make it a hole that can be covered by a blank plate.

- drilling outside and fishing wires behind the siding is sometimes easier.

- I try to avoid pulling trim off the wall to run wire under the baseboard, but that is an option. Sometimes the only option.

- Basement exterior walls typically have a gap behind the studs, at least in places where the foundation (concrete) walls are. Those can be fished behind. Trying to turn a corner though, a lil more difficult.

- Some homes are built with open-joist's making it easy to fish thru the cieling. Closed joist homes you can only fish in the direction the joists are going.

Using those air return vents is a good idea. Hadn't thought of that one. Question is, how do you determine what the return vents are? I've seen HVAC'ers run their control wire thru the vent before, but I thought it was a crazy idea.


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