# HD Locals not till 2010 for DISH Network?



## mya23rd (Dec 11, 2005)

When I first heard about Charlie chat I thought oh how cool, and I actually tried to get in a question. Not knowing how it really worked, I called in and of course got a screener. I wanted to ask about HD locals and when they might be available on Dish Network but I could tell instantly that there was no way I was gonna be able to ask the question. The screener put me on hold, then came back with some scripted answer saying we are looking forward to offering HD locals in the future. So I said can I ask Charlie about it and he said no, I said can I ask about new HD channels in general and he said no. I was very irritated as was the screener so I asked are there current plans for an HD locals rollout? After a few more minutes of back and forth he said I don’t think we’re gonna be offering that anytime soon. I asked what does that mean and he said maybe by 2010 we will have that available. He said they were still working on adding non HD locals to other parts of the country and HD locals are simply not a priority. I was rather surprised by this answer although it took me a while to get it out of him. 

My initial reaction was disbelief but now I wouldn’t be surprised if it takes another half decade to get HD locals through Dish Network. Considering how long its taking DirecTV to roll out HD locals and since Dish hasn’t even started its gonna be a really long time before they offer HD locals. When I first heard about Dish buying Voom’s satellites, I figured they just wanted the bandwidth which they would use to start rolling out HD locals or at least begin the process. But from what I have seen, they are keeping the Voom Channels and trying to offer more national HD channels to become the largest national HD provider in one big move which I’m sure they’ll use in some marketing campaign. I hope I’m wrong and they actually do plan on using the bandwidth for HD locals. The Voom channels are a waste in my opinion. Consider the fact that Voom could hardly sell any subscriptions and eventually went out of business. There channels are just a waste and although its nice to have more HD channels, I would rather have my HD locals. But it looks like Dish Network customers will have to use that OTA for a long while.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

HD locals will start rolling out by mid year next year. But remember that locals on satellite started rolling out in 1998 (illegally - sort of) and legally in December of 1999. Now, 6 years later, Dish has 164 of 210 markets covered by Dish. (http://ekb.dbstalk.com/19 or http://ekb.dbstalk.com/15) Many less by DirecTV. It will take time for HD locals to roll out as well.

See ya
Tony


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

What can you really expect from Dish???? They haven't even added ABC, NBC, or Fox in HD from New York and LA. 

Directv has had all 4 networks for nearly a year now I think. All Dish offers is CBS and you have to have a second dish to receive it on whichever coast you live on.

For local HD channels, it seems cable is the way to go.


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## Jon Spackman (Feb 7, 2005)

Link- "What can you really expect from Dish???? They haven't even added ABC, NBC, or Fox in HD from New York and LA. 

Directv has had all 4 networks for nearly a year now I think. All Dish offers is CBS and you have to have a second dish to receive it on whichever coast you live on."


If you call them "HD," 480p is not HD more like ED!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

:welcome_s mya23rd
I believe you were misinformed. When did you place your call? (The Charlie Chat for December isn't until Monday and last month's 'chat' was a Tech Forum and Charlie wasn't present.)

I doubt if it will take until 2010 to get HD Locals via dish. All 210 markets? Yes, it will be a while. But E* (Echostar/Dish Network) is positioned well to convert their SD LILs to HD over the next several years.

JL


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## mya23rd (Dec 11, 2005)

I got this info from a Dish Network CSR a few months ago, not in the latest Charlie Chat. Honestly I don’t think its going to come for a very long time. Consider how long its taken DirecTV. They started a while ago and kept pushing it back. I mean 2006 is around the corner and Dish Net has not announced anything yet. Considering DirecTV’s roll out you would think they would at least make some announcements to assure both new and current customers that they are working on it. I may be wrong but from what I understand they have yet to do so. I think it would also benefit them to at least make some announcement if they had any plans because DirecTV has finally begun its roll out and has hit the ground running. They have already begun broadcasting HD locals in several markets and will add even more by next year as they transition HD customers over to mpeg4.  I really think they are going to make a big in the next few months once they have all the equipment and techs ready to start mass installations. This is even more true once they release the HD DVR for mpeg4. All this taken into account means they will have many of the major markets up and running by the middle of next year. I think they will also use the fact that if your in the right market you will no longer need to bother with setting up an OTA which is a pain for many people especially newbies who are just used to plugging in a box. No OTA is gonna be a big selling point in my opinion. And consider all the people who cannot get HD locals or only a few channels with weak signal, getting it thru the box will be a major relief. 

I seriously doubt Dish Network will begin rolling out HD locals by mid next year. But hey you never know, they could make some huge announcement tomorrow and begin implementing their plans within a few months.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

E* has been a little slow in the announcement department lately. They are probably trying to avoid the mistakes of 2003 when they announced that they expected the satellite at 105° to carry 50 HD channels (or at least thats what we thought we heard). It would be hard to put together a package of 50 HD channels now, two years later - Getting all 21 Voom channels on the system helps get closer to 50 but there is still a big gap between what E* thought would be available and what was available in 2004 and is available now.

As noted on the last Tech Forum, MPEG4 encoding technology isn't where E* expected it to be either. They are not seeing the gains of moving to MPEG4 that were forecasted and have decided to go a different direction with their encoding while they wait for an MPEG4 encoder to be developed that works better. They ARE pushing ahead with distributing MPEG4 decoding receivers. The decoders exist today and are reported to work as promised.

I expect E* will have a handful of HD LIL markets online by the end of 2006 as well as every market's SD LIL stations (ALL 210 markets, except stations that refuse to agree to carriage or are small stations not eligible to force carriage). D* (DirecTV) will have a few HD markets up but will still be lagging far behind in the SD locals carriage.

2006 will be a good year - hopefully E* will do a little announcing to help those who like the service 'keep the faith'.

JL


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

Sorry but I honestly don't see HD LiLs from Dish being a real priority anytime soon and you can thank congress and the NAB for that. 

It makes no business sense to invest in a product there's relativly no demand for and that market is not going to materialize until a lot more people get into digital tv.

It was different when it looked like the analog shutoff was going to happen at the end of 2006 but now that deadline has been recinded, the majority of the general public won't care about HD for a while yet. Once forced into digital, people will quickly learn about and demand things like high defination tv but until that happens, it's going to be a slow transition.

Therefore "E"s marketing stratagy has changed (and I wouldn't be surprised if "D"s changed too). 

What will probably happen is 5 or 6 major dmas will get hd locals. It won't be a spotbeam thing like current analog LiLs but more like it used to be when Dish offered analog dns from half a dozen major cities (instead of just the current two - NY & LA), only this time it will be the digital dns and probably transmitted in a "HD Lite" format. 

That combined with the rest of Voom and a few more national HD channels is where Dish will probably go in 2006.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Hd lite would be better than what they offer in analog locals presently.


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

I believe Charlie said several months ago they hoped to have HD locals in the top 20 major markets early in 2006. The only question is what their problems with MPEG4 might do to that schedule. 

Charlie is not stupid. He knows D's move into HD locals will soon lead to defections among his HD customers. And those customers probably spend the most per capita of all E* customers.


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## Nightlife1970 (Aug 10, 2005)

ok estimates are that only 16 million households will have even 1 HD ready tv by the end of this year. Of those only 49% will even attempt to get HD programming. Thats around 7 million households.

I can see why there is no real push for local HD from E*. There is just not the demand for it yet. Those that do get HD programming from E* are probably willing to setup an OTA and get their locals for free at this time.


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## navychop (Jul 13, 2005)

Think about it- the HD locals won't wait until 2010. Legislation, in various forms, crawling thru Congress now all cut off analog TV in 2009. So by then, ALL locals provided will be digital. Note I said digital, not HD. Most digital stations today provide less than half their line up in HD. And by then, Congress & the FCC may allow downrezzing anyway- who knows?

I suspect the main reason there are no warning stickers on analog TVs today is so Congress helps out the manufacturers in dumping analog only TVs over Christmas.


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

Dish has also decided to go with there Turbo system as they call it right now. No they are not going to Mpeg 4 any time real soon. They think there Turbo System is the way right now and this is what they are going to implement more and more. They don't believe that Mpeg 4 with give them enough compression and channels for HD.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

When will digital must carry happen?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> When will digital must carry happen?


2009?

JL


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## navychop (Jul 13, 2005)

FCC hasn't said. Prob 2009.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

TNGTony said:


> HD locals will start rolling out by mid year next year. But remember that locals on satellite started rolling out in 1998 (illegally - sort of) and legally in December of 1999. Now, 6 years later, Dish has 164 of 210 markets covered by Dish. (http://ekb.dbstalk.com/19 or http://ekb.dbstalk.com/15) Many less by DirecTV. It will take time for HD locals to roll out as well.


Let's not forget that although Dish Network has a 25 market lead over DirecTV, that the market lead only equates to less than 2.5 percent of US households. Since DirecTV will be adding Rockford, Rochester-Mason City, Mankato, and Zanesville by the end of this month, DirecTV will be down 21 markets and just under 2 percent of the households in the US.

And don't think that DirecTV is standing still with local market adds. DirecTV will be launching DirecTV 9S sometime next year, and is building DirecTV 12S as a on-ground spare. There is a great possibility DirecTV will be using DirecTV 9S to serve the rest of their local markets.

Never assume a competitor is standing still.


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## mya23rd (Dec 11, 2005)

I really hope Dish does have some HD Locals by mid 2006 but I think that’s a bit optimistic. Maybe by the end of the year but I wouldn’t be surprised if its not till 2007. Think about how long its taking DirecTV to roll out HD locals and all the new Sats they have had to put up. I know that Dish has essentially purchased bandwidth with the acquisition of Voom but I don’t know exactly how much capacity that gives them. I mean DirecTV first said locals will be available in the summer of 05, then they pushed it back till fall now only now HD locals are really starting to roll out, very slowly as they gear up for the roll out. But consider how many months its going to take for new dishes to be installed and new receivers to be swapped. I have read in several posts about a lack of equipment in many markets with installers not even having the receivers or dishes yet. The point is that this stuff takes a very long time to roll out, many months and years. Sure I agree that HD demand isn’t massive yet but it is growing fast and will make a big jump this holiday season. HD television prices are dropping fast and a lot more programming is available. A lot more people will have HDTV’s by the end of next year and if Dish wants to capitalize on that they should get to work on offering HD locals.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mya23rd said:


> I really hope Dish does have some HD Locals by mid 2006 but I think that's a bit optimistic. Maybe by the end of the year but I wouldn't be surprised if its not till 2007. Think about how long its taking DirecTV to roll out HD locals and all the new Sats they have had to put up.


E* does not equal D*. DirecTV's approach to HD LIL is via low power ka band satellites that have plenty of room but also require a large hard to aim dish and may have issues with weather. By the nature of their past limited bandwidth, D* has pulled out all the stops they can on their DBS positions. E* didn't.

That "room for improvement" is about to pay off. I cannot get into all of the details, but what they called "8PSK Turbo" on the last chat is going to open up a lot of bandwidth. The new E10 spotbeam satellite is E*'s first to be built to a higher standard ... not 25 spot transponders replacing 5 ConUS beams but a massive array of spot transponders to blanket the nation. Plus they are adding the 129° DBS slot via Dish1000 - a *small* dish similar to D*'s tripple but instead of tuning up to 46 transponders (the limit of D*'s licenses at 101-110-119) it will deliver up to 82 transponders (the limit of E*'s licenses at 110-119 and the borrowed Canadian space).

These three developments alone have the potential to empty 105°, 121° and the wing birds (61.5° and 148°) of all local channels. Giving E* a lot of in orbit space for HD locals or whatever they wish to uplink.


mya23rd said:


> A lot more people will have HDTV's by the end of next year and if Dish wants to capitalize on that they should get to work on offering HD locals.


I believe they will. The first step toward that is to take Voom's approach of serving HD locals the way that the FCC intended it - OTA. The best part of that approach is no negotiations with broadcasters haggling over price and permission to carry. There is nothing that stops E* from selling or leasing you a receiver that will get HD locals OTA.

There are places where HD OTA isn't strong enough ... and for those places (and people who won't install a VHF/UHF antenna) satellite HDs will be helpful. But just the inclusion of an ATSC tuner in the next generation of satellite boxes goes a long way toward getting a good percentage of their customers covered.

It will take a while for the receiver replacements to be done ... but until then there is a path that E* can follow to nudge people in the right direction. Introducing national HD channels such as the Voom21 and any new 24/7 HD that becomes available. Good reasons for people to upgrade to new receivers.

E* will be moving on HD locals ... don't pre judge their future success based on D*'s experiences. Last year it seemed that D7S would never get in the sky and E* cranked out new LIL market after new LIL market all year long while D* stayed stagnent. This year both companies seemed to slow down on locals (with D* practically stopped). Both companies have challenges. I believe E*'s approach will be the winner.

JL


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Echostar with the launch of E10 will have huge capacity. Here are some assumptions I am going to make:

1. E8 to be turned off and it or E6 moved to 119 for backup.

2. E8 spots to all be transferred to E10.

3. This will leave about 100TP worth of capacity at 110 on E10

4. They have huge spot capacity on 61.5 with R1 which they should end up owning soon

5. Assume they put 4 MPEG-4 channels HD/TP

Given that they will end up with about 150-175 new spot TPs (given some on 61.5 will not be able to be used out west since too low angle, and some on 110 are SD LIL covering E8 and other markets). This will be 600-700 HD channel LIL carrying capacity. This would put dish around 75 or so of the top markets in LIL HD, plus some odd ball small markets on empty spots.

This is of course pure speculation on my part, but it is easy to see that by May/June of next year with E10 fully operational Dish will be able to cover a lot of the US with LIL HD. Dish will have the advantage of being in Ku band and having a lot less rain fade. Directv will have the advantage of more capacity, but Dish will cover around 75% of the population.


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## rthomp03 (Sep 29, 2005)

j5races said:


> Link- "What can you really expect from Dish???? They haven't even added ABC, NBC, or Fox in HD from New York and LA.
> 
> Directv has had all 4 networks for nearly a year now I think. All Dish offers is CBS and you have to have a second dish to receive it on whichever coast you live on."
> 
> If you call them "HD," 480p is not HD more like ED!


480p IS ED!


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

James Long said:


> E* does not equal D*. DirecTV's approach to HD LIL is via low power ka band satellites that have plenty of room but also require a large hard to aim dish and may have issues with weather. By the nature of their past limited bandwidth, D* has pulled out all the stops they can on their DBS positions. E* didn't.


I don't know. Dish Network's approach to standard local-into-local (LIL) is to require a large, hard to aim dish. The Superdish has been used for most of the local market additions over the past two years, because Dish Network pulled out all the stops on their DBS positions.


James Long said:


> The new E10 spotbeam satellite is E*'s first to be built to a higher standard ... not 25 spot transponders replacing 5 ConUS beams but a massive array of spot transponders to blanket the nation.


Yes. I have a feeling, looking at the FCC filing, that some of the transponders will be used for HD feeds. This is a fairly massive satellite that duplicates many transponders over a small area.


James Long said:


> Plus they are adding the 129° DBS slot via Dish1000 - a *small* dish similar to D*'s tripple but instead of tuning up to 46 transponders (the limit of D*'s licenses at 101-110-119) it will deliver up to 82 transponders (the limit of E*'s licenses at 110-119 and the borrowed Canadian space).


I don't know how problematic this is, but there are two different problems with the leasing of space from Ciel for the Canadian slot at 129:

1) The authority is only for 1 million ground stations that can point at 129;
2) The authority to run Dish Network programming through 129 expires 30 September, 2008.

This does not appear to be a permanent fix.

Also, let's not forget the original press release stated Echostar X was to be ready for a third quarter, 2005 launch. Just like DirecTV's problems with DirecTV 7S and their manufacturer (Space Systems/Loral), Dish Network's manufacturer (Lockheed Martin) is also late with the delivery of the Echostar X satellite. Any more slippage, and Dish Network will be running close to the deadlines set by the SHVERA for the "one-dish" solution for local channels. Dish Network has until 7 June, 2006, to get all local channels jostled around to fit on one dish.

Everything isn't rosy, but it will certainly be after Echostar X is in position. Of course, there is a lot of bandwidth on Echostar X. Combine that with VoOm's spot-beams, and I think Dish Network will have one heck of a payload. The only problems at this point are the actual launch of Echostar X and the implementation of the SHVERA's "one-dish" rule.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Greg Bimson said:


> I don't know. Dish Network's approach to standard local-into-local (LIL) is to require a large, hard to aim dish.


Ku FSS certainly isn't the bear that Ka is. Many have installed their own SuperDishes ... not so many for Ka.


Greg Bimson said:


> I don't know how problematic this is, but there are two different problems with the leasing of space from Ciel for the Canadian slot at 129:
> 
> 1) The authority is only for 1 million ground stations that can point at 129;
> 2) The authority to run Dish Network programming through 129 expires 30 September, 2008.


More ground station licenses can be added. Technically speaking, the authority to use each and every satellite slot comes with an expiration date. It is just a matter of renewing the license (or contract).


Greg Bimson said:


> Also, let's not forget the original press release stated Echostar X was to be ready for a third quarter, 2005 launch. Just like DirecTV's problems with DirecTV 7S and their manufacturer (Space Systems/Loral), Dish Network's manufacturer (Lockheed Martin) is also late with the delivery of the Echostar X satellite.


They are ready now. E10 should be leaving Lockheed soon for SeaLaunch. Unless they shook something off during final testing. 


Greg Bimson said:


> Combine that with VoOm's spot-beams, and I think Dish Network will have one heck of a payload. The only problems at this point are the actual launch of Echostar X and the implementation of the SHVERA's "one-dish" rule.


It seems to be all falling together more than all falling apart. E* needs E10 to keep ahead of the 'one dish rule' although if push came to shove I'm sure they would work something out.

Wasn't D7S nearly a year late? Nine months? I don't follow D* too closely but I do recall 50 new markets being promised in 2003 (moving from 50 to 101 markets). Only 13 made it up in 2003 with 42 more when D7S finally was launched. E* added locals to 110 and 119 every month in 2003 (that does not include the SuperDish additions in Nov-Dec). E* added locals every month except November in 2004. D* still seems to be measuring the merrigolds.

E10 will launch. It will take a catastrophic failure to stop E* from reaching the June 'single Dish' deadline and freeing up space for new channels. The wheels are in motion.

JL


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

The superdish approach for Dish network was used in small markets. I am in a SuperDish market, my market is in the #145 or so range. I quite frankly am glad to have the service even though it is on a larger dish (although my market is now on the Dish 1000). The larger dish may have been harder to aim when it was put in, but it probably added 10-30 minutes extra to the installation time, but it has worked fine since.

I would sub to LIL HD on superdish if it were offered in my market without hesitation. The local channels are probably not going to be full power here for quite some time.


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## voripteth (Oct 25, 2005)

I'm curious, are people interested in HD *LOCALS* or just HD of the major networks?

I figure that most local content is going to be SD for quite some time. Only the prime time network programming is in HD.

So, to rephrase the question I'm interested in: "When will all major networks be carried in HD?"


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

voripteth said:


> I'm curious, are people interested in HD *LOCALS* or just HD of the major networks?
> 
> I figure that most local content is going to be SD for quite some time. Only the prime time network programming is in HD.
> 
> So, to rephrase the question I'm interested in: "When will all major networks be carried in HD?"


I can't see any purpose for HD locals, or for locals in general, but HD Networks would be GREAT.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

I would expect the remaining "National" HD feeds will be coming up soon. Those of us lucky enough to be in an O&O area will be happy.


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

LtMunst said:


> I would expect the remaining "National" HD feeds will be coming up soon. Those of us lucky enough to be in an O&O area will be happy.


I think Dish is looking for more than O&O for HD DNS or they probably would have done something before now. I don't think there are enough potential subs in O&O that can't / don't already get HD nets OTA and we all know O&O usually has better PQ. This is one reason that Dish has refused to pass on the EPG in the PSIP stream to their 942 - because then there would be no reason for subs that could get the digital networks OTA to purchace them from Dish. No, I think Dish will persue a more aggressive approach of providing HD DNS to people in digital white areas, even if they're stuck with the old analog prediction model at first, there's supposed to be a digital prediction model for the top (100 I think) DMAs this Spring with the rest the following year.

ANyway, that's my take for what it's worth. I know one thing, if Dish does only provide the HD DNS to O&O, they're going to get one hell of a back lash from many of us that have been in the digital desert for the past 2 years.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

James Long said:


> Ku FSS certainly isn't the bear that Ka is. Many have installed their own SuperDishes ... not so many for Ka.


True. However, for both Dish Network and DirecTV, they pretty much require pro install at this point. Dish Network is much more lenient when it comes to installing your own equipment. Either way, the installation is almost moot at this point.


James Long said:


> More ground station licenses can be added. Technically speaking, the authority to use each and every satellite slot comes with an expiration date. It is just a matter of renewing the license (or contract).


I didn't know that. I thought that the FCC's expiration on these Canadian slots were set in stone. I didn't think that the authority for use on the American slots had an expiration date.


James Long said:


> They are ready now. E10 should be leaving Lockheed soon for SeaLaunch. Unless they shook something off during final testing.


So Lockheed was only a few months behind? That's good. When is the satellite going to be handed to Sea Launch?


James Long said:


> It seems to be all falling together more than all falling apart. E* needs E10 to keep ahead of the 'one dish rule' although if push came to shove I'm sure they would work something out.


I'd believe that. If Echostar X were late, it would be one of those issues where Dish Network would need to implement two plans, instead of one: one to conform to the one-dish rule, then one to implement the switch-over to E10. The first one would be more problematic if E10 isn't available, as those wing-slot locals would need to be moved onto core slots. I bring this up because...


James Long said:


> Wasn't D7S nearly a year late? Nine months? I don't follow D* too closely but I do recall 50 new markets being promised in 2003 (moving from 50 to 101 markets). Only 13 made it up in 2003 with 42 more when D7S finally was launched. E* added locals to 110 and 119 every month in 2003 (that does not include the SuperDish additions in Nov-Dec). E* added locals every month except November in 2004. D* still seems to be measuring the merrigolds.


I recall that some of the delay for DirecTV 7S was that similar satellite by SS/L launched right before DirecTV 7S had problems, and all similar satellites had to be reinspected. All of DirecTV's local plans were contingent upon the launch of DirecTV 7S. Once that fell into place, DirecTV added the 42 markets at 119, then another 24 at 72.5.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Greg Bimson said:


> I didn't know that. I thought that the FCC's expiration on these Canadian slots were set in stone. I didn't think that the authority for use on the American slots had an expiration date.


The satellite 129° will transmit under Canadian authority and be received under FCC authority. And yes, every license expires.


Greg Bimson said:


> When is the satellite going to be handed to Sea Launch?


I don't know the exact date - but last word is that testing is just ending, so it is only an issue of packing it up and getting it out the door. The expected launch window is February (the entire month).


Greg Bimson said:


> ... if E10 isn't available, as those wing-slot locals would need to be moved onto core slots.


Or E* needs to beg to the FCC for help ... but in reality most if not all of the split markets can be served with Dish1000. There are only a couple splits left on 61.5 and the entire markets on 148° comply with the "one dish" rule. They may have to squeese a couple of extra channels on each spotbeam in some areas. Messy for older receivers, but doable.


Greg Bimson said:


> I recall that some of the delay for DirecTV 7S was that similar satellite by SS/L launched right before DirecTV 7S had problems, and all similar satellites had to be reinspected.


Fortunately nothing simialr is launching. As long as the ones in the sky hold together until launch E10 should be an easy "go".

JL


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## koji68 (Jun 21, 2004)

Nightlife1970 said:


> ok estimates are that only 16 million households will have even 1 HD ready tv by the end of this year. Of those only 49% will even attempt to get HD programming. Thats around 7 million households.
> 
> I can see why there is no real push for local HD from E*. There is just not the demand for it yet. Those that do get HD programming from E* are probably willing to setup an OTA and get their locals for free at this time.


Hum! Doesn't E* have roughly 11 million customers? Pursuing the HD crowd will greatly increase E* customer base.

E* won't be able to compete for the cable and D* customers that already have HD locals and it will start loosing them to this competitors.

E* needs HD in the top 20 markets as soon as posible to compete.

It will be interesting to see a comparation of what would bring more revenue/market share to E*: SD locals in all 210 markets or HD locals in the top 20 markets. Don't the top 20 markets cover like 80% of viewers?


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## Spruceman (Nov 21, 2004)

Meanwhile. the folks in Canada can get both East and West feeds of the big 4 networks in High Def -- none of this waivers, etc crap for them. As well as feeds of the Canadian networks.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Their waiver is being Canadian, eh?

JL


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

Well according to the Chuck Chat tonight they will have the top 5 DMAs (NYC, Boston, LA, Chicago, & Atlanta) up in Jan and will be adding 5-6 per month thru 2006. Unfortunately, it was not made crystal clear whether those would be MPEG4 only or combo of MPEG2 & 4. This matters to those of us that want a MPEG4 HD 2 Tuner DVR not just the basic 211/411 that they released today, which is 1 tuner non-DVR HD receiver.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

5 in January ... 5 or 6 more per month through 2006.

Woo Hoo! (if you like HD)

JL


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

Well I guess tonight did a fixin to this thread


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Yep. They kept it close to the vest.

JL


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## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

James Long said:


> Ku FSS certainly isn't the bear that Ka is. Many have installed their own SuperDishes ... not so many for Ka


This got me thinking... Doesn't DISH have options to use Ka at 105 on AMC-15? If memory serves, the original discussion was that this might be used for high-speed internet services, but I wonder if DISH might now try to leverage that for HD locals. Direct has already proven that it can be done, so why not, especially given that AMC-15 is already in orbit and seems to function well. Plus, the Ka transponders are spotbeams which would seem to be perfect to deliver HD LIL. I almost wonder if there wouldn't be a way to "update" the 105 SuperDISHes to support this, maybe by doing an LNB swap. If so, talk about being a "drop-in" solution for the current SD105 markets.

Of course, this is just pure speculation and I'm probably way off base, but DISH did announce a fairly agressive HD LIL plan in tonight's chat.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Depending on how they roll things out... if they did the locals in MPEG4 and made an attractive upgrade offer for folks in those areas as they roll it out... then they could perhaps slowly migrate entire DMA to MPEG4 and HD receivers... and then no longer have to broadcast those SD locals anymore at some point.... so maybe 1 year into this, after they have 60 markets in HD (using their 5 per month statement), maybe they can start to re-use the bandwidth of the first ones rolled out...

Or maybe I'm being too optimistic in that, and maybe it takes 2 years after first offering HD locals to do a swap out of that entire DMA's customers. In any event, the changeover can happen in a staggered manner.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

Like I said, "Never assume a competitor is standing still."

It appears that Dish Network has sufficient bandwidth to start adding HD locals. However, if the adds are in MPEG4, then there should now be a big rush to get MPEG4 receivers out the door. We also don't know where these are coming from, but it must be assumed a bigger (or second) dish will be required.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Patience, friend. 24 hours ago we were not as far as we are now. The road is there - we're just taking it one day at a time.

JL


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

So, since those 5 markets are O&O, would it be safe to assume those of us in other O&O markets will be able to get one of these 5?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Probably the closest one *IF* one qualifies. But digital distants was messed up with the last version of SHVERA so don't hold your breath.

JL


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

James Long said:


> Probably the closest one *IF* one qualifies. But digital distants was messed up with the last version of SHVERA so don't hold your breath.
> 
> JL


Is Dish still planning the remaining "National" network feeds in HD? I already get CBSHD so I know I would qualify for those (only really need Fox since that is my problem OTA).


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## derwin0 (Jan 31, 2005)

LtMunst said:


> So, since those 5 markets are O&O, would it be safe to assume those of us in other O&O markets will be able to get one of these 5?


NY, LA, and Chicago are the only ones of the 5 that are completely O&O
Boston - only CBS & Fox are O&O
Atlanta - only Fox is O&O


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## Robert L (Dec 13, 2005)

j5races said:


> Link- "What can you really expect from Dish???? They haven't even added ABC, NBC, or Fox in HD from New York and LA.
> 
> Directv has had all 4 networks for nearly a year now I think. All Dish offers is CBS and you have to have a second dish to receive it on whichever coast you live on."
> 
> If you call them "HD," 480p is not HD more like ED!


Well, its a "clear" ED then ! Really, I don't know why everyone that has Dish, is always insulting the DNS HD so bad, from Directv. I get all the locates OTA and the DNS from Directv.

I watch it on a 110 inch screen with HD projector. I think thats big enough to tell if there is a major difference. There is not a major difference in picture quality. It does vary, sometimes I can tell easier, but most times its something that one has to really look for.

But do I want Directv to send out what everyone calls HD-LITE ?,, 1280-1080 ,, no, of course not, I want all the resolution, but since I cannot control it, I rather have them like that, rather than nothing.

I see people fussing now about the Voom channels, well, everyone fussed at Directv but so far it hasn't changed.


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## hokieengineer (Jul 31, 2004)

Well us E* users fussed a whole lot and got a good compromise, full resolution Voom channels, just not as many of them. Seems fair to me.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

hokieengineer said:


> Well us E* users fussed a whole lot and got a good compromise, full resolution Voom channels, just not as many of them. Seems fair to me.


And you know this because? Of speculation on "another" site that is taking credit for the miraculous, and has yet to happen, changes from Dish?

Most folks wouldn't have noticed the resolution changes if they weren't talked about on the forums... and most folks who watch the TV aren't on either of these forums... so most people didn't complain to Dish and most people didn't really voice their opinion since they didn't notice.

And they won't notice when the resolution goes back up... and they won't care who or what Web site tries to take credit for it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HDMe said:


> And you know this because? Of speculation on "another" site that is taking credit for the miraculous, and has yet to happen, changes from Dish?


Yet to happen being the key ... Oh if I could count the number of "victory" threads at 'another' site that have still not come true. Didn't they declare victory for getting NBR on the 501/508/510? Where is that option on my 501 menu? Not there yet. 

I'm not declaring victory. But I do see progress in the 'battles' that customers apparently believe they are fighting with E*. Read Gary's posts. Has anything changed?

JL


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> Yet to happen being the key ... Oh if I could count the number of "victory" threads at 'another' site that have still not come true. Didn't they declare victory for getting NBR on the 501/508/510? Where is that option on my 501 menu? Not there yet.
> 
> I'm not declaring victory. But I do see progress in the 'battles' that customers apparently believe they are fighting with E*. Read Gary's posts. Has anything changed?
> 
> JL


I forget how many times, but I know more than once I've posted in threads on this forum that they could combine Voom content and have less repetition with fewer channels, as a bandwidth and content improvement suggestion... SO, Dish must have read my posts and Charlie's announcement Monday about 15 Voom channels must have been because of my suggestion!

I'm the winner!



Seriously, though... Victory is best declared after the battle. I believe we (the US) declared victory in Iraq a while back, and yet more soldiers have died since we declared victory than did before that.

Sometimes in these "battles" and "declared victories" I am reminded of chasing Windmills and Don Quixote...


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

BillJ said:


> I believe Charlie said several months ago they hoped to have HD locals in the top 20 major markets early in 2006. The only question is what their problems with MPEG4 might do to that schedule.


It's my guess that the only problem with MPEG4 is that Dish doesn't have an HD DVR design ready to record it.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

Tower Guy said:


> It's my guess that the only problem with MPEG4 is that Dish doesn't have an HD DVR design ready to record it.


And DirecTV, with 12 markets rolled out, still doesn't have an MPEG4 HD DVR, either.


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## navychop (Jul 13, 2005)

Haven't you heard of the 622? Yep, they have a design. Just a matter of time to manufacture and distribute. Months away, probably. My money is ready, and as long as I have 40+ hours backlogged on my 721, and OTA HD, I can be patient.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Tower Guy said:


> It's my guess that the only problem with MPEG4 is that Dish doesn't have an HD DVR design ready to record it.


I'm going to defer to the tech guys on that and say that the only problem is that the ENCODERS don't work as well as E* wants them to. In less than 4 weeks we'll know more. CES announcements, press releases, plenty of time to get the story right (and move ahead).

JL


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## ckinninger (Jul 23, 2005)

James Long said:


> I'm going to defer to the tech guys on that and say that the only problem is that the ENCODERS don't work as well as E* wants them to. In less than 4 weeks we'll know more. CES announcements, press releases, plenty of time to get the story right (and move ahead).
> 
> JL


has there been any word as to what satellite(s) will carry these 5 markets in hd? spot beams? mpeg-4?

i'm pumped for this. i am sure this will do wonders for e* sales and slumping stock.

thanks for any news.

ck

just got this email:

Watch a Special HD EDITION of the Charlie Chat on DISH Network!

January 9, 2006 @ 9 PM ET

Channel 101

This event will be hosted by DISH Network's CEO, Charlie Ergen, and co-founder, Jim DeFranco. The show will highlight everything you ever wanted to know about High Definition Television, plus Eric Sahl, Senior VP of Programming, will join us for all the latest news regarding HD programming. A very special guest, President and CEO of VOOM Josh Sabin, will be stopping by to talk to Charlie & Jim. As always, this is your chance to email or call in and talk live to the CEO himself. So, don't miss this great HD event on DISH Network!

-----
I guess the answers are a comin'


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

So far it looks like 61.5 and 129, although I suspect 148 will be in play in the future.

JL


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## AdamGott (Nov 30, 2005)

Link said:


> For local HD channels, it seems cable is the way to go.


I hate to say it but I am having trouble feeling anything for you guys who are complaining about not being able to get HD networks on satellite... try not being able to get them at all from any source. And I wouldn't be surprised if my local market (Idaho Falls, ID - #135 market I think) never gets it. Three of the four local networks are broadcasting a DIGITAL signal now but it is just a digital version of their crappy signal (a couple of them don't even broadcast in stereo still!).

We do have a local PBS HD but it is only on for a few hours a night.


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## RLMesq (Mar 9, 2003)

AdamGott said:


> I hate to say it but I am having trouble feeling anything for you guys who are complaining about not being able to get HD networks on satellite... try not being able to get them at all from any source. And I wouldn't be surprised if my local market (Idaho Falls, ID - #135 market I think) never gets it. Three of the four local networks are broadcasting a DIGITAL signal now but it is just a digital version of their crappy signal (a couple of them don't even broadcast in stereo still!).
> 
> We do have a local PBS HD but it is only on for a few hours a night.


Got you beat. Though I am technically in the San Francisco DMA, I live 100 miles away and am never going to get any OTA signals, period.... plus, I am far enough from town that I'm not going to get cable (or DSL).

I would think stations in SF would be happy to get their HD signals on E*, since a huge portion of the market doesn't get OTA signals.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Personally I get OTA locals very well off of a small amplified antenna on the back of the Dish so I would rather see them add more national HD as opposed to worrying about HD LIL. I do sympathize with those that aren't as lucky though but I know that my OTA locals will probably ALWAYS look better than they would over the sat link anyway.


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## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

bobukcat said:


> Personally I get OTA locals very well off of a small amplified antenna on the back of the Dish so I would rather see them add more national HD as opposed to worrying about HD LIL. I do sympathize with those that aren't as lucky though but I know that my OTA locals will probably ALWAYS look better than they would over the sat link anyway.


Why not both (assuming compelling content  )? Once E10 launches and is operational, there will be a boatload of spots available for SD LiL, meaning that there should be a bit of room for national HD on the core slots and HD LiL on the wings with a bit of reshuffling. If E* builds a bunch of uplink centers for use with R1, then that greatly expands the possibilities for the east as well. It looks like the bandwidth is coming, but not instantaneously. Also, there appear to be some FSS opportunities as well that we don't have a lot of details on beyond the FCC filings.


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