# The DIRECTV Plus® HD DVR: A Look at the 1st Year



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

_This article is a collective effort of brott, lamontcranston, and Milominderbinder2._

The DIRECTV Plus® HD DVR: A Look at the First Year

Despite its troubled start, the DIRECTV Plus® HD DVR has evolved into a capable high-definition video recorder. In addition, the Plus® HD DVR has been the driving force in the creation of a strong community of enthusiasts taking an unprecedented role in the software release cycle with DIRECTV leading the way. Now it's time to look back at the DIRECTV Plus® HD DVR journey.

_January, 2006:_ DIRECTV's first homegrown Digital Video Recorder (DVR), the R15, has been in use for several months. The HR10-250, a high-definition DVR based on the TiVo software, has a list price of $1,000. The satellite world is ready for an alternative.









*DIRECTV shows a mockup of its new Plus HD DVR at the Consumer Electronics Show.*

At DIRECTV's Investor meeting in February, a single slide is displayed that shows the upcoming direction of their user interface. It's a tantalizing taste of things to come.

_August 16, 2006:_ DBSTalk.com scoops the world with its first look at the newest member of the DIRECTV Plus® series, the HR20-700 high-definition DVR. The specs are impressive: 300GB hard drive, MPEG2 and MPEG4 decompression, two satellite inputs, an Ethernet port, and an evolution of the user interface found in the R15.

The feature set is impressive:

It can record two programs while you are watching a third previously recorded.
It allows the customer to set bookmarks in recorded material.
It allows the native output of TV in the resolution in which it was recorded.
Setting up programs to record is almost instant.
Series Links can be created with the press of a single button.
Rearranging items in the Prioritizer is nearly instant.
Live TV appears in a small window while you are navigating the menus and guide.

At this early stage, the list of what the HR20 does not do is almost as impressive as what it does do, and numerous bugs are found. Updates are quickly requested.

Initially, the HR20 was only available in southern California, so while the rest of the DBSTalk "nation" waits and hopes, those who have received their HR20s form two camps: the lovers and the haters. As luck would have it, Earl Bonovich of DBSTalk.com had cultivated a strong relationship with DIRECTV. This relationship would soon play a crucial role in the rapid improvement of the HR20, but first came the early days and what can best be described as a dark period.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

The Early Days

Some DBSTalk users experienced little to no problems, while others were constantly experiencing issues. Folks clamored for hundreds of new features. To make matters worse, despite DIRECTV's hard work, each new software release seemed to create new problems for some as often as it resolved old problems for others. For some, even using Fast Forward could lock up their receivers. Southern California customers tended to get updates first, while the rest of the country either hoped the new code would spread their way or dreaded that it might.

Despite the reported issues, demand for the HR20 was still huge. DBSTalk users still jumped at the chance to bring one into their homes, happily posting when one arrived, or posting locations where they could be found. It was clear from the start that DIRECTV could have a huge hit on its hands once the bugs were ironed out. At that dark moment, the user community showed its true stripes...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

HR20 Episode IV: A New Hope

Out of all this confusion sprang a little bit of hope. Customers began to take an active stand to help out. Earl Bonovich fielded questions, and other DBSTalk users began to offer solutions that worked for them. As the cream began to rise to the top, people like Craig Lincoln (DBSTalk user _Milominderbinder2_) began to offer suggestions in the form of Tips and Tricks documents. Doug Brott (DBSTalk user _brott_) volunteered to create a "Wish List" website to track feedback and feature requests, which ranged from Four Tuners to Dual Live Buffers. Other DBSTalk users started a catalog of HR20 bugs. All of this was done for the betterment of the HR20.

As October rolled into November, things started to improve. The HR20 was finally stable enough that customers wanted more than just trick play. HR20 enthusiasts had managed to find workarounds for many of the missing features. The eSATA expansion port was added in one software release that enabled customers to add large external hard drives, thus increasing recording capacity. The 4x Fast Forward and Rewind features were added, allowing customers to move at 90 times normal playback speed. In addition Advance (30 Second Slip) took just one second instead of more than 3 seconds per click.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Santa Claus Comes to Town

December marked the beginning of the "Cutting Edge" program at DBSTalk.com. Led by DBSTalk user _hasan_ and others who had no local service through DIRECTV, it was the need for OTA (or over-the-air) reception that drove DIRECTV and DBSTalk.com to cooperate on the very first optional software download for HR20s: version 0x104. Through volunteer DBSTalk users including Earl Bonovich and Tom Robertson, DIRECTV invites volunteers to test new software releases before they are released nationally. These volunteers provide feedback from every market in the U.S. The CE program is truly unique in its scope, level of involvement, and the enthusiasm of its volunteers. The first few CEs, as they've come to be called, sported names such as _Santa_, _Elvis_, and _Benz_.

The _Santa_ CE release unlocked the OTA feature, enabling customers to see local over-the-air channels on the HR20 for the first time. Customer satisfaction improved, but there was still a long way to go. _Santa_ also brought new multimedia capabilities that allowed the HR20 to show pictures or play music from a PC.

The _Elvis_ CE release began work on the Title Search Autorecord, and the _Benz_ CE enabled Autorecord padding, while squelching the Random Screen Saver bug.

February improvements included song information on XM Channels, the 90 Minute Buffer in Standby mode, and the new GameLounge. And on February 17, DIRECTV allowed customers to customize the Guide Button! Now the Guide button could go straight to the Guide!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

The Hits Just Keep On Coming!

March saw Sound Effects enabled and Guide data cached to disk for quick access after a software update. On March 5, DIRECTV added options to allow customers to turn off Animations, the slow crawl that took place while navigating through the Guide or menus. In addition, My Playlist could now remember how customers preferred to view their listings of recorded programs.

Searches were improved to allow more flexible wording and to address issues with special characters. Dave Galanter (DBSTalk user _Capmeister_) spearheaded a movement to get Closed Captioning working properly. As a result, DIRECTV put the vast majority of captioning problems to bed; however a few issues remain.

Low VHF Channels and Pay Per View issues were addressed, and Showcases were enabled. The new White GUI came in May and eliminated one of our favorite bugs -- Pinky. Pinky would make normally dark blue backgrounds change to bright pink. Pinky -- may she rest in peace.

Thanks to the efforts of the Cutting Edgers, led by Jim Litz (DBSTalk user _litzdog911_), Caller ID functionality was fixed in a series of releases which adjusted sensitivity to be "just right." HDMI was used right away, but there were challenges due to the different manufacturers' implementations. The development team worked hard to fix the HDMI problems, aided by Cutting Edgers like Mike Smith (DBSTalk user _Radio Enginerd_) and others who posted information about their TVs.

In March, DIRECTV even took an unprecedented step of asking CE users to test an unreleased product -- Single Wire Multiswitch (SWM). This revolutionary technology, expected later this year, allows a single cable to be used for each receiver, including the dual-tuner HR20, which would normally require two cables.

Two more Wish List items were made available! Customers could now play a group of programs one after another, and recording conflicts were now noted in the To Do list.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

To Infinity and Beyond!

June brought Fast Forward Correction. This much-requested feature allows a customer to press play while fast forwarding and causes video playback to resume very close to where expected. In the past the HR20 forced customers to hit the Replay button one or more times to achieve the same results. This manual process had now been automated. In addition, [HD] icons were added to the titles of high-definition shows in both the Search Results and the To Do list.

Some of the other things that have come out of the CE process are:

Customers can tune to a channel by simply entering the channel numbers without pressing Enter.
Special characters are now ignored in a keyword search.
ZIP code is now cached so we no longer have to re-input for ACTIVE content.
The Music & Photos feature expanded to a full-screen interactive interface.

DIRECTV On Demand is coming in 2007. In addition, activation of the Channels I Receive (CIR) feature should prevent the HR20 from recording blocked channels.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

To Sum it Up

The first year with the HR20 has been a wild and exciting ride. The CE program should be a case study in how a company can use its customer base as an integral part of its product development. It's hard to imagine a better result than the ongoing dialogue between DIRECTV and its customers. There's no doubt the best is yet to come for the HR20 as we look forward to new features like DIRECTV On Demand and a few final "squashes" for those last remaining bugs.

We've been proud to be a part of the development of the HR20. We didn't start out wanting to "be the solution"; at first we just wanted a great product. When we realized that we had an opportunity to shape the HR20's future and make it better for everyone, we were glad to jump right in. Here's to you, HR20!

*Doug Brott (DBSTalk user brott)*
*Craig Lincoln (Milominderbinder2)*
*Stuart Sweet (lamontcranston)*

_Special thanks to Coffey77, Drew2k and litzdog911 for editing and advice. Thanks to the hundreds of frequent posters at DBSTalk.com for keeping the HR20 community going with helpful ideas and good intentions. We also want to thank Chris Blount, Earl Bonovich, and Tom Robertson for their supervision and inspiration, and of course the DIRECTV HR20 development team for opening up the process to the enthusiastic user community._


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## machavez00 (Nov 2, 2006)

Very nice work guys. I have enjoyed being part of the CE experience. While others have had "major" problems with their HR20s, I have had minimal problems with mine. I can count on one hand the number of RBRs I have done. So here's to to many more years (Until a new box is released) of viewing enjoyment to come!


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Might be a good counterpoint followup to list the items that are still outstanding, don't work (as advertised, or at all), etc.


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## jutley (Oct 11, 2006)

machavez00 said:


> Very nice work guys. I have enjoyed being part of the CE experience. While others have had "major" problems with their HR20s, I have had minimal problems with mine. I can count on one hand the number of RBRs I have done. So here's to to many more years (Until a new box is released) of viewing enjoyment to come!


+1


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

nice work guys. Web 2.0 at its heart. User-generated content and Grassroots initiatives that effect change. 

I'll shoot and edit the documentary so we can make it available on VOD


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

I remember that stuff. Wow, I am a piece of history. Thanks for inviting me for the ride. It is still fun and I still look forward to more of what is coming.

Thanks for the highlights Doug!

EDIT


bto4wd said:


> Without offense intended towards anyone, I'd say this is a very one sided look at the 1st year.


Isn't it nice that anyone can post anything they want! No offense taken!


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Without offense intended towards anyone, I'd say this is a very one sided look at the 1st year.


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## pman_jim (Jan 24, 2007)

Very good write up guys.. :joy: :joy: 

I have been a part of the CE process since Elvis, and I look forward to participating in more! Thanks D* for listening to us!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> Without offense intended towards anyone, I'd say this is a very one sided look at the 1st year.


I'm a relatively new HR20 user (late March of this year), but it looks like a pretty balanced article to me.

Very nice write-up, guys. Congrats all around! 

/steve


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

As happy as I am now with my boxes I have to say that "the Problems" were pretty significant early on. Living in So Cal I had a box since the first week of release so I can say it was very frustrating.

After initially setting up I didn't really use it again until they finally activated OTA.

A lot of the features that should have been active upon release took months... Not having the OTA active for so long was retarded.

All that being said I have been very happy since December and haven't had any severe issues really since January.

It *was* rough early on.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

VeniceDre said:


> It *was* rough early on.


And I don't think there is anybody that will deny that one.

Great article guys!


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

bto4wd said:


> Without offense intended towards anyone, I'd say this is a very one sided look at the 1st year.


Indeed, I expected to see "Pollyanna" as one of the contributors.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Nice job everyone involved!

IMHO, it really helped that D* finally decided to get their customers involved in feature testing and providing for a way to get feedback to them via another path then trying to get through the CSR's, a win for all involved in the process.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> Without offense intended towards anyone, I'd say this is a very one sided look at the 1st year.


What a surprise.

While proofreading and putting in my editing advice I was almost shoked a few times at some of the unforgiving things in this write-up. The thing is that when you put it all together it's pretty _non_-sided and very well written and thought out.

If it seems one sided that just tells you that positive things are coming from the HR20 and this wonderful group of CEers. Many things in that article are about every one of you in the CE process and the things you've accomplished here.

Keep up the *GREAT* work!


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Meklos said:


> Might be a good counterpoint followup to list the items that are still outstanding, don't work (as advertised, or at all), etc.


I am one of the contributors and do maintain a list exactly as you outlined. I happened to post it again just this morning:

*38*

The text from that post follows.

- Craig

--------------- 08/02/07 9:58 AM ------------------
*Missing Promised Features* 
Note that the group responsible for getting satellites up and channels added is different than the group who programs our receivers. It is not a choice of new channels or new features.

Once DIRECTV on Demand is delivered, I hope that DIRECTV will first focus on the remaining features already promised in the manual or have been discussed publicly.

For my family, the biggest need is to make the HR20 be able to reliably Autorecord. One part of that is the CIR Bug.

Channels I Receive (CIR) Bug
_*"Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package" - *__*manual*__* p. 33 *_

The CIR work does not pull development hours because it is yet another group who is working on CIR. But fixing the CIR bug does not address the fact that the Favorite Channels filters do not work in Searches:

*Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter to Search for "just what you want to watch" p. 31
*
Another problem that the CIR won't fix is the Search Results Sort Order (SRSO) Bug. If the SD channel comes up first, then Autorecord will record SD instead of HD.

_*HDTV channels/programs are not given preference in Search results as stated in 0x13d, *__*0x13e*__*, & *__*0x17e*__*.* 
_
One more Autorecord problem is that Title Search Autorecord does not work yet.

_*Title Search Autorecord - pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for *__*0x115*__*, *__*0x119*__*, & *__*0x11b*_

Another key missing promised feature is:

*The ability to edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes) p. 28.*

Since there is a back-door trick that works in some cases, it has been argued that this is just a quirk in the prioritizer interface.

Also, some have been missing OTA channels for months now. For those users, a critical missing promised features is OTA Scan:

*"Select the Scan for Channels button to have the receiver scan local off-air frequencies" p. 78
*
To complete out the list...

Screen Centering
*Enable Setup>Display>Screen Centering per p. 28
*
Streaming Video
*"in 2007...home videos on their TVs directly from Intel® Viiv™ [PCs]" - **2006 Annual Report p. 9**.
*
eSATA
*Enable consumer installable Hard Drive Expansion Device - **Investor Day 2/22/06** Slide 41 
*
eSATA works but is not supported. Also, eSATA is not yet an expansion drive but a replacement of the existing drive.
DIRECTV has implemented 24 features since the HR20 was first released a year ago. That is amazing. Hopefully VOD will be number 25.

As Mom always said, "Do not start anything new until everything else is cleaned up."


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> What a surprise.
> 
> While proofreading and putting in my editing advice I was almost shoked a few times at some of the unforgiving things in this write-up. The thing is that when you put it all together it's pretty _non_-sided and very well written and thought out.
> 
> ...


Yes Coffey - what I got from it was more the user-involved improvements than anything else - all obvious varying issues during the process aside. That's more what it's about.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Nicely done gentleman. Good Job.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

I've only had my HR20 for a couple of months, and have had a DirecTiVo for several years, so the HR20 appears to me as a very rough machine. It's amazing to imagine how much worse it must have been in the beginning. Anyone who stayed with it when it was even worse than it is now deserves some sort of medal for perseverance.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> What a surprise.
> 
> While proofreading and putting in my editing advice I was almost shoked a few times at some of the unforgiving things in this write-up. The thing is that when you put it all together it's pretty _non_-sided and very well written and thought out.
> 
> ...


Just my opinion. Seems very sugar coated to me. In post #2:


> Some DBSTalk users experienced little to no problems, while others were constantly experiencing issues.


It's kind like saying "Some people of the world had little to no problems with Hitler, while others were constantly experiencing issues." The issues with the HR20 were big and effected a good percentage of the population. Plus no mention of the fact the D* SOP was to have units returned & replaced when customers called with problems that were known to be software problems.

I don't want to get into an argument and take this thread to a place it doesn't need to go. It's a summary I'd expect to see from the authors. There are folks here that view the HR20 through rose colored glasses and there are those that do not.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

EDIT
<Removed Comment>

Never mind. My mother always told me if I did not have something good to say, don't say anything at all.


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

So Godwin's Law rears its ugly head once more...


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

Great job, guys!! Thank you D*. Pay no attention to the same people who day in and out seem to have an axe to grind with D*.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Some people could wake up one morning, find that the HR20 prepared them a wonderful breakfast, and then proceed to do nothing but complain that it didn't put enough butter on the toast.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Some people could wake up one morning, find that the HR20 prepared them a wonderful breakfast, and then proceed to do nothing but complain that it didn't put enough butter on the toast.


We're a long way from that scenario.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Some people could wake up one morning, find that the HR20 prepared them a wonderful breakfast, and then proceed to do nothing but complain that it didn't put enough butter on the toast.


And some would wake up to find their toast burned and eggs all over the floor and state "Well I like my toast burnt and like eating my eggs off the floor".


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

bto4wd said:


> And some would wake up to find their toast burned and eggs all over the floor and state "Well I like my toast burnt and like eating my eggs off the floor".


Ha.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Spanky_Partain's Mom gave me the same advice......


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Moderator Hat On:
No more references to Hitler or anything remotely close to something like that.

This is a Consumer Electronic device, and a buisness that provides it.
Keep the comparsons a LOT more relavent.


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## pman_jim (Jan 24, 2007)

Canis Lupus said:


> Dude - Hitler issues/experiences = HR-20 issues/experiences (scaled)?
> 
> OK then - picture this:
> 
> ...


A huge +1!!!!


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

Brott very nice it brought back memories I almost forgot about our beloved Pinky


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Brott very nice it brought back memories I almost forgot about our beloved Pinky


And a Giants fan...biggup JACKIEGAGA.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bto4wd said:


> Just my opinion. Seems very sugar coated to me. In post #2:
> 
> It's kind like saying "Some people of the world had little to no problems with Hitler, while others were constantly experiencing issues." The issues with the HR20 were big and effected a good percentage of the population.


Ummm, so the statement was that some people had no problems and some people had a lot of problems. And what exactly is wrong or incorrect in that statement? 

I personally have had very little problems since day 1 back in September. But a whole lot of people did have problems.

Not quite sure why you take issue with the fact that there were people at both ends of the spectrum. But hey, whatever floats your boat.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

The HR20 was such a poor product when it was first introduced (and for about 9 months thereafter). It's hard for me to forget all the aggravating experiences. Like clockwork, almost every morning, the HR20 would be frozen, and would take about 10 minutes to go through the reboot process. Many times, the shows would not record as planned. Numerous other times, there was a picture and no sound. And, this went on every day for almost 9 months. Endless calls to Directv with clueless CSRs. What a stark contrast to my experiences with the HR10-250 TIVO, which performed for me flawlessly and had the features I truly wanted.

There is no doubt that most of the problems with the HR20 have now been resolved, but having to pay to go through it did not leave me with a positive feeling. 

While I commend Directv and those here who helped with the CE process, it should never have been necessary in the first place. Once a company gets a bad reputation for inferior products, its hard to shake it (e.g. Firestone tires on the Explorer). That's what happened with the HR20. Previously, Directv received rave reviews for the HD-TIVO, and a great reputation. That's just not the case anymore.


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## Jim B (Feb 4, 2006)

As a long time Direct TV customer (10 years), with Sony, RCA, & Hughes receivers over the years, and now Direct TV's "own" R15s and HR20s, things have come a long way. Let's face it, unless it's one of the seven simple machines (you know, the lever, the pulley, etc), it's not going to work for all people all the time. In our microchip society, the more features to interact, the more troubles with the millions of combinations that can create a "bug"..... Just look at Microsoft and the Windows OS, remember 3.1? 95? 98? and so on? Things get better and better in a free market due to supply and demand and all those other laws of economics I dozed through in College.....

 Sorry for the philosophical lapse.... :grin: 

Bottom line - an excellent article. I lurk about on the site WAY MORE than one should, and IMHO progress has been made, some will be happy, some will not, and life will go on. Just imagine what our experience would be like with someone like Earl taking point!


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

jal said:


> What a stark contrast to my experiences with the HR10-250 TIVO, which performed for me flawlessly and had the features I truly wanted.


As mentioned some folks had HR20 problems, some didn't. Same can be said about the HR10-250, go back to the early days of that product and it had a number of issues for some folks also, the bad HDMI connection problem was one that comes to mind. And how long did it take Tivo/D* to provide any type of speed up to the guide, IIRC just about the time I got my HR20 they finally came out with a software upgrade to speed it up a bit. The passage of time tends to help folks forget some of the problems that were out there.


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## lman (Dec 21, 2006)

We're still waiting for the most wanted feature, *DLB*, to be enabled. There would be *many* more happy DirecTV customers if we had DLB.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

jal said:


> There is no doubt that most of the problems with the HR20 have now been resolved.


Well, I take that comment back. Right after leaving my computer, I sat down in front of the tv to relax. Guess what? No picture or sound. The HR20 would show channel banners, but that's it. I'm right in the middle of a RBR now.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

lman said:


> We're still waiting for the most wanted feature, *DLB*, to be enabled.


From what I've seen hinted to on this site you're looking at a very long wait, it at all, for DLB on the HR20.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

jal said:


> Well, I take that comment back. Right after leaving my computer, I sat down in front of the tv to relax. Guess what? No picture or sound. The HR20 would show channel banners, but that's it. I'm right in the middle of a RBR now.


Are you posting info about your reboots in thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=89507 ?


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks for the reminder. I just posted it.


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## EaglePC (Apr 15, 2007)

I would'nt pay 299.00 for one.


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## Truffles100 (Jan 26, 2007)

I'd just like to thank everyone who gave up their own time and stayed up late hours to make a piece of my home entertainment center better.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Canis Lupus said:


> Spanky_Partain's Mom gave me the same advice......


I think I would like Spanky_Partain's mother, for that is some sound advice.


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

just because i have one doesnt mean i wouldnt like the same but with TIVO backing the programming. 

this HR20 was a turkey, a real very public beta test. my unit still has occasional problems. 

but hey if you guys like it, enjoy! i still hold out hope that Directv under new ownership will allow other HD models, maybe a tivo option, which i think is a better machine ?? 

but hey, if you guys love the hr20 so much, im happy for you.


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## Shrunken Head (Mar 15, 2007)

mitchelljd said:


> just because i have one doesnt mean i wouldnt like the same but with TIVO backing the programming.
> 
> this HR20 was a turkey, a real very public beta test. my unit still has occasional problems.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree.
This was a big beta test and we were the testers.
It is now a fairly good machine. B- grade IMO.
We are the worker ants and DTV is the queen.
Enjoy her droppings.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

DCSholtis said:


> Great job, guys!! Thank you D*. Pay no attention to the same people who day in and out seem to have an axe to grind with D*.


And certainly keep ignoring the people who day in and day out deal with bugs and problems with your deficient piece of hardware.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Some people could wake up one morning, find that the HR20 prepared them a wonderful breakfast, and then proceed to do nothing but complain that it didn't put enough butter on the toast.


And some people would wake up...hope that the Series Links they had set to record some shows for their child had recorded and find that it didn't happen...and the company that made the box and charges for the programming couldn't be bothered to respond to the reports no matter how long or how many people report the same issues.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

EaglePC said:


> I would'nt pay 299.00 for one.


Unfortunately, I did...times three. One of the worst consumer electronics purchases I've ever made.


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## DaHound (Nov 20, 2006)

Great job guys! It certainly has been a wild ride to this point. 
Remember when Earl played Santa? That was an exciting CE wasn't it? Of course he neglected to say that he had stock in Channel Master. 

I think we can all be proud to have played a big part in trying to get this beast to behave. Me thinks it's almost there. Almost. 

Wonder how many other companies let their customers "Really Do The Talking?"


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Thanks for the recognition of my part, guys. And a good write up in general. The HR20 has come a long way, and I've come to really enjoy it. Still a few more things to fix, but I have great confidence in the final outcome.


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## chopperjc (Oct 2, 2006)

My install was Oct 06 for the HR-20. (d* customer since 98) Certainly the boards have been a positive experience. The HR20 was not ready for prime time even when I got it. I will say my problems have been minimal since starting with the CE program. I HOPE *D will appreciate our efforts and continue to upgrade the box. The TIVO products never had any problems before release and is still a better product IMO. I am not going negative just expressing an opinion. With that said I like the programming and it has been fun to grow with *D. I do plan on purchasing another HR-20 within the next couple of months so keep upgrading and I will be glad to help in whatever way I can. I also completly understand some people want to plug in and forget it. Those people finally have a product that seems a lot more stable. This is recent. I would have a hard time recommending the product even now to someone who is not willing to give a little effort. Just my 2 cents.

I do thank all on the board who have made my experience with CE's and all of the *d products manageable and let me get the most out of my system. 5 receivers in the living room with the ability to watch 7 football games at once. Who would have thought that was possible for all but the elite home user even a couple of years ago.

Hard to complain.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

Add my vote for a really great job! THANKS!! It's amazing in retrospect how quickly all these fixes and improvements came to pass (many more thanks to the CErs  ) and how long and difficult those problems seemed at the time. 

I'm one of those who started up in Sept. and had a pretty miserable first week (literally was on the phone with D* arranging a replacement when I suddenly couldn't replicate the problem and backed off). Since that time it's easily been 90% enjoyment, some minor difficulties and maybe 2 - 3% problems mostly fixed with a soft reboot and the occasional RBR. 

I commend all of you who have helped to see the positive in all this. To those who insist on seeing the negative, I can only offer the advice of one of my first managers. "Don't you think you're just a little pessimistic? See if you can try to improve your life by looking more often for the positive." That advice changed my life at 33 and helped me become a problem solver -- a finder of solutions.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Ken S said:


> And certainly keep ignoring the people who day in and day out deal with bugs and problems with your deficient piece of hardware.


Do we know it is the hardware? I thought it was the software?


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Ken S said:


> And some people would wake up...hope that the Series Links they had set to record some shows for their child had recorded and find that it didn't happen...and the company that made the box and charges for the programming couldn't be bothered to respond to the reports no matter how long or how many people report the same issues.


This sounds like axe grinding to me.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Unfortunately, I did...times three. One of the worst consumer electronics purchases I've ever made.


Do you ever have anything positive to say?

Seriously.

You seem to be one of the most consistently negative posters I read.
Or maybe I am just reading all the posts where you make the negative comments?


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## GP245 (Aug 17, 2006)

Let's not forget that the HR20's initial introduction was delayed - there were major product problems.

Wall Street had become very vocal about Direct's competitive position - looking at cable and what Dish was going to have available.

Direct rushed this product into market not fully tested and not ready for distribution. This is not just the case with Direct - other companies have done the same thing.

Although it's exciting to be an early adopter and be a part of the birth of a product, not all of us want to be Beta testers!

I don't see things getting any better.

With new DirecTV products we will probably continue to be asked to "birth the babies"!

Even when Direct supposedly provides products at no cost - there is a cost.

We are asked to commit for more years of being a customer.

This is the quid pro quo - we, in essence are paying for free products.

Too many products are going out to the public with way too many problems.

My choice is to wait.


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## ltrain20 (Dec 12, 2006)

nice article/summary guys


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

ATARI said:


> This sounds like axe grinding to me.


The guy is complaining about Series Links not recording shows properly, there is a long thread on it, see the Blues Clues thread. So I'll ask, how is that axe grinding?

As a prospective customer of the HR20, I would rather have a full perspective on the unit instead of only a rose colored perspective so that I can make a better educated decision.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

raott said:


> As a prospective customer of the HR20, I would rather have a full perspective on the unit instead of only a rose colored perspective so that I can make a better educated decision.


raott,

You've come to the right place to help you make your decision. The article posted is about how the folks right here @ DBSTalk.com came together to help bring improvements to the HR20. Can you imagine where the HR20 would be today without that help?


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

I think the main problem was DirecTV absolutely had to get this product out. There were firmly on the way to MPEG4 and Ka. There was really no choice. They could have tested and tested more and waited for the box to be rock solid, and maybe they would only be releasing it now. The sat is already up there, millions invested in technology, if it were released now it would have been a real business disaster akin to new Coke.

I'm sure they knew they would have negative publicity, but the positives of getting the product out and seeing the user comments was more beneficial to them. The early adopters got screwed naturally, but they usually do.

Sure some say they should have just outsourced it to TiVo. But seeing with how long their development cycle is, this would not have worked. TiVo takes FOREVER to release new boxes and I think MPEG4 would have given them fits.

This is a sea-change moment. Sometimes great change is accompanied with great pain. But, I love my HR20 and can't wait for September!


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## pprather (Nov 12, 2006)

Outstanding work guys. I almost forgot i'd been through all that mayhem.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Do we know it is the hardware? I thought it was the software?


Actually, I'm beginning to think it's more of a hardware problem at this point. Software has progressed. I had 2 HR20s that worked fine for 30 days. One unit lost Tuner 1 and now it's an on again, off again proposition. As I sit waiting for the replacement I am now seeing BSODs, blank recordings and the delete question as soon as you play a recording problems.

I'm concluding that these are caused by my flaky Tuner 1. Not that the software shouldn't handle that problem, but it seems that more and more posts here about replacement units are involving a bad tuner. Plus customers that have to keep returning units as their replacement don't work either.

Bottom line is that I think if you have a unit that is sound from the hardware standpoint it will work without these problems. (Yes other problems exist). Yet if you have hardware problems that come and go the software isn't properly identifying the problem and the result is lost recordings or "random" reboots. Just this week I've had 3 random reboots on the unit with the bad tuner while watching recorded programs.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Do you ever have anything positive to say?
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> ...


Have you read what he's gone through?


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

bto4wd said:


> Have you read what he's gone through?


Yes, I am aware of the problems he has been through (and continues to have). Yet he insists (or at least insinuates based on his reply to DCSholtis) he has no ax to grind, when clearly he does.

I guess what really bugged me today is here I read this intelligently written article on the First Year with the HR20, and it turns into whining and bashing about the HR20, instead of a celebration of how far the unit has come along thanks to the constructive input of dozens of users of this forum.

I would have liked to have seen just congratulatory posts about a job well done by Doug, Craig and Stuart. Or criticisms of the artcle ITSELF. But not criticisms of the HR20, which should be on other threads (just not this one).


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

ATARI said:


> [...]I guess what really bugged me today is here I read this intelligently written article on the First Year with the HR20, and it turns into whining and bashing about the HR20, instead of a celebration of how far the unit has come along thanks to the constructive input of dozens of users of this forum.
> 
> I would have liked to have seen just congratulatory posts about a job well done by Doug, Craig and Stuart. Or criticisms of the artcle ITSELF. But not criticisms of the HR20, which should be on other threads (just not this one).


+1.

Eloquently stated, IMO. /steve


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Do we know it is the hardware? I thought it was the software?


It's a bundled package. The hardware and software are inseparable from the user's perspective. That's what I meant.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

ATARI said:


> This sounds like axe grinding to me.


No, it was a response to someone else's comment which was, frankly, ridiculous.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Yes, I am aware of the problems he has been through (and continues to have). Yet he insists (or at least insinuates based on his reply to DCSholtis) he has no ax to grind, when clearly he does.
> 
> I guess what really bugged me today is here I read this intelligently written article on the First Year with the HR20, and it turns into whining and bashing about the HR20, instead of a celebration of how far the unit has come along thanks to the constructive input of dozens of users of this forum.
> 
> I would have liked to have seen just congratulatory posts about a job well done by Doug, Craig and Stuart. Or criticisms of the artcle ITSELF. But not criticisms of the HR20, which should be on other threads (just not this one).


I have plenty of positive things to say, but from my perspective very little of my experience with the HR20 has been positive. I could care less how far the unit has come...I just want it to work properly and reliably now (actually for the past four months would have been nice.). My posts are also accurate and truthful regarding my experience...if that's always going to be negative in your opinion so be it. While I see absolutely no need to defend myself...I have posted many, many times here helping people and have written reviews of my experience with the machine that may help people make an informed purchase decision. Of course, that's probably considered a negative in your eyes.

The article was well-written, but in my opinion does not accurately depict the HR20 today. I wasn't going to post my opinion on the piece at all until I read some rather ridiculous comments within it. I noticed you didn't take any issue with them cluttering up the thread even though they came before my responses.

I invite you to ignore my posts in the future if you find them so distasteful.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Ken S said:


> I invite you to ignore my posts in the future if you find them so distasteful.


Actually I have found most (if not all) your posts to be very well written and articulate.

I was just irrated at the way this post was headed, and your's were the last posts I read, so I went off on you.

'nuff said on my part. On to other posts...


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Yes, I am aware of the problems he has been through (and continues to have). Yet he insists (or at least insinuates based on his reply to DCSholtis) he has no ax to grind, when clearly he does.
> 
> I guess what really bugged me today is here I read this intelligently written article on the First Year with the HR20, and it turns into whining and bashing about the HR20, instead of a celebration of how far the unit has come along thanks to the constructive input of dozens of users of this forum.
> 
> I would have liked to have seen just congratulatory posts about a job well done by Doug, Craig and Stuart. Or criticisms of the artcle ITSELF. But not criticisms of the HR20, which should be on other threads (just not this one).


How many "Why I :heart: my HR20" threads do you need? Bottom line is there are still problems. Those that are experiencing problems can get tired of the praise D* and the HR20 continue to receive when their units still don't work properly.

Is it that hard for those of you without problems to understand that those with problems aren't here just to grind an axe or be negative just for fun?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> How many "Why I :heart: my HR20" threads do you need? Bottom line is there are still problems. Those that are experiencing problems can get tired of the praise D* and the HR20 continue to receive when their units still don't work properly.
> 
> Is it that hard for those of you without problems to understand that those with problems aren't here just to grind an axe or be negative just for fun?


Ya, there are still some bona-fide HR20 problems out there, but that's what the issue-specific threads are for... not this one. Why continue to derail it?

Come on guys, take a deep breath and let it go. Life is too short!  /s


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Steve said:


> Ya, there are still some bona-fide HR20 problems out there, but that's what the issue-specific threads are for... not this one. Why continue to derail it?
> 
> Come on guys, take a deep breath and let it go. Life is too short!  /s


As I stated back in post #25:


> I don't want to get into an argument and take this thread to a place it doesn't need to go. It's a summary I'd expect to see from the authors. There are folks here that view the HR20 through rose colored glasses and there are those that do not.


I was ready to stop there. I will stop now.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

It seems to me that there is one fact that shouldn't get lost in the celebration of all the improvements in the HR20 that have come about due to the input and support of the heroic volunteers in this forum: the HR20, despite its many improvements, is still, today, a sub-standard consumer product. There are many, many bugs in both its basic and advanced features that demand immediate attention. So no matter how far it was come in the last year, there is still a long way to go before this product comes up to the level of minimal acceptability according to accepted standards for consumer products. 

Those who have been involved in the bug reporting and prioritizing and workaround engineering may not have the perspective that a fresh customer has, and hence rate the device more highly than you should. Earl likes to say the HR20 is neither perfect nor a POS, it's somewhere in the middle, but this isn't really true, as it's much closer to POS than to perfection. That's just an objective fact based on the number of outstanding bugs.

So yes, I'm grateful to the heroic volunteers who've given their time freely and without compensation to improve the HR20, I shudder to think how it would be without their efforts. But my appreciation for those efforts doesn't delude me into thinking that the HR20 is a fine machine today or that it will be in the near future. DTV pulled a fast one with the HR20, and they need to be called out on it lest that sort of thing happens again in the future.

To me, the most egregious thing is getting the customer to sign up for a two-year extension before he can see just how horrible the HR20 is. The customer assumes DTV is acting in good faith and will deliver him a device that's acceptably functional. Lo and behold, what a surprise is in store.

So that's my main gripe. And as for celebrating Web 2.0 and user-generated content and amateur product management and free labor and all that, it's as much a matter of exploiting people as anything else. DTV has people who get paid to report and prioritize bugs, and they should be doing their job. The prodding helps, but DTV cashes the checks and DTV is responsible for delivering the product. Don't forget that.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Sorry to hear you've had a bad experience with the HR20 BubbaDude. But from my experience, the HR20 is doing a fine job with it's basic & advanced DVR functions and acceptable job with the extras. I got my first in Nov 2006 and replaced my HR10-250 with another in March 2007. I haven't had a negative experience with either and certainly no more problems than I had with the HR10-250 DirecTIVO.

As for the review, good job guys.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

say-what said:


> Sorry to hear you've had a bad experience with the HR20 BubbaDude. But from my experience, the HR20 is doing a fine job with it's basic & advanced DVR functions and acceptable job with the extras. I got my first in Nov 2006 and replaced my HR10-250 with another in March 2007. I haven't had a negative experience with either and certainly no more problems than I had with the HR10-250 DirecTIVO.
> 
> As for the review, good job guys.


Interesting comment. Perhaps you can rate some features for me.

1. Trick play modes have a delay of 1-3 seconds before anything happens, fine or acceptable?
2. "Channels I Get" is totally wrong, fine or acceptable?
3. "Series Link" is unreliable, fine or acceptable?
4. Autorecord is totally broken, fine or acceptable?
5. Frequent audio and video dropouts, fine or acceptable?
6. Massive pixellation on MP4 channels when doing 30-second slip or 2 second replay, fine or acceptable?
7. Slow motion is unusable on third party remotes, fine or acceptable?
8. Shows frequently stop recording in mid-stream due to changes in Guide Date, fine or acceptable?

Like I said, some old-timers lack perspective.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Actually I have found most (if not all) your posts to be very well written and articulate.
> 
> I was just irrated at the way this post was headed, and your's were the last posts I read, so I went off on you.
> 
> 'nuff said on my part. On to other posts...


Atari,

I can understand the irritation...kind of the same thing (maybe from a different polarity though ) that caused me to post in this thread in the first place. Guess we both kind of got sucked in. Peace.

Just to clarify, while I don't agree with the way the article paints the current condition of the HR20. I do find that people like brott have done a great job in posting many helpful articles on the device. I very much appreciate their work.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

BubbaDude:

1 - don't have that problem/never noticed a delay
2 - that's a DirecTV issue that affects all DirecTV branded receivers (not DTIVO)
3 - don't have that problem
4 - don't use autorecord, it's an annoying feature to me
5 - don't have that problem
6 - don't have that problem
7 - don't use 3rd party remotes, but then again, D* is not expected to provide support for that - sounds like an issue with the 3rd party's implementation
8 - don't have that problem

The above applies to both of my units.

Not sure as to the root of your particular problems, but it could be that you have hardware issues requiring a replacement


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Just to clarify, while I don't agree with the way the article paints the current condition of the HR20. I do find that people like brott have done a great job in posting many helpful articles on the device. I very much appreciate their work.


Ken,

Thanks for the kind words. Keep in mind, the article posted is about how the folks right here @ DBSTalk.com came together to help bring improvements to the HR20. I wish you success with your HR20.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

say-what said:


> BubbaDude:
> 
> 1 - don't have that problem/never noticed a delay
> 2 - that's a DirecTV issue that affects all DirecTV branded receivers (not DTIVO)
> ...


Say-what, are you an Oprah fan? I'm not describing my feelings or a set of personal problems, I'm describing the objective behavior of the HR 20. Numerous other people on this board have described the same behaviors.

Your response is that you don't care about any of these problems because you've decided to like the HR20 no matter what. You're certainly free to do that, but don't try and paint the shortcomings of the HR20 as "Bubbadude's personal issues." That's childish and dishonest.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

say-what said:


> BubbaDude:
> 
> 1 - don't have that problem/never noticed a delay
> 2 - that's a DirecTV issue that affects all DirecTV branded receivers (not DTIVO)
> ...


Bubba Dude - I ditto the above.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Your response is that you don't care about any of these problems because you've decided to like the HR20 no matter what.


That wasn't his response at all. He basically said, none of those things you listed affect me. And I have to agree with him. You list a delay of 1-3 seconds with trick plays, but I have never seen that on my HR20. Never. So what are people like me and say-what supposed to say? Are we supposed to agree with your assertion that that the HR20 is basically a POS, when our units have never displayed that problem? Are we supposed to agree with the people complaining about constant missed recordings, when ours have never even missed one?

I don't see anyone saying that nobody has problems with their HR20. Clearly that's a completely inaccurate thing to say. But it seems like the people who have these problems simply cannot believe that there are people out there who don't. You think that we're just cheerleaders who are blind to the problems with our units. We're not. Have you ever thought about it in reverse? Maybe we're "cheerleaders" *because* our units never have problems...


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## Alebob911 (Mar 22, 2007)

Ok I read most of the posts and have to say that it is amazing to me that grown adults ( i assume) have such a hard time staying on topic. This was just a write up about the first year of the HR 20 nothing more nothing less. The HR20 started out as a unit that needed a lot of work that should have been done before its release but because of the commitment of many volunteers including myself and the cooperation of D* the HR20 has been improved. Try getting that type of relationship with the cable company. As far as the write up, Thanks to all of the people that made this opportunity happen.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Alebob911 said:


> Ok I read most of the posts and have to say that it is amazing to me that grown adults ( i assume) have such a hard time staying on topic. This was just a write up about the first year of the HR 20 nothing more nothing less. The HR20 started out as a unit that needed a lot of work that should have been done before its release but because of the commitment of many volunteers including myself and the cooperation of D* the HR20 has been improved. Try getting that type of relationship with the cable company. As far as the write up, Thanks to all of the people that made this opportunity happen.


Thank You. +1


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

One time many years ago, Before Windows. I bought some software based on reviews in PC Magazine. Some functionality never was enabled despite upgrades. PC Mags response was it was a preliminary review based on the developers statements. 

Therefore I have stopped my PC Mag subscription and have never bought from the software vendor again. Now they are R.I.P. , Wonder why.

How does this relate? If I had paid money for a HR20 as it was when it was released in all its rushed out the door glory I would have sent it back, cancelled D* and paid any penalties before staying a subscriber.

Every time cable raised its rates I dropped another pay package, First Showtime, them Cinemax, then HBO and then started down tiering, Ended up at basic cable. Then I saw the adverts knocking satellite TV. Said self what are they afraid of?

Looked at DirecTV and USSB(?) and went to Tops appliance city, now defunct, and bought two receivers with installation and subbed up.

My next big change will be getting the H*** out of NJ, Why taxes and the way the government is run.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> That wasn't his response at all. He basically said, none of those things you listed affect me. And I have to agree with him. You list a delay of 1-3 seconds with trick plays, but I have never seen that on my HR20.
> 
> ...Maybe we're "cheerleaders" *because* our units never have problems...


The Channels I Get bug affects everybody, so don't try and tell me you've never seen it or it isn't important. And don't try and tell me that you can press FF three times and see the screen changing with no delay. And don't try to tell me that your HR20 never fails to record a show that you've told it to record.

You've decided that the bugs in the unit aren't important, and that's fine, but don't try and tell me there are no bugs.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

BubbaDude said:


> The Channels I Get bug affects everybody, so don't try and tell me you've never seen it or it isn't important. And don't try and tell me that you can press FF three times and see the screen changing with no delay. And don't try to tell me that your HR20 never fails to record a show that you've told it to record.
> 
> You've decided that the bugs in the unit aren't important, and that's fine, but don't try and tell me there are no bugs.


Channels I Get Bug does appear on everyone's system... but it doesn't necessarily "affect" everyone... I personally don't use any auto-search recordings, and I know what channels I receive.... But it does need to be fixed, and it is not an HR20 "thing"... the entire DirecTV system's CIR/CIG functionality is disabled.

FF Three Times, yes there is a pause... but then it starts to FF... we are not talking a 30s pause here... it is 1s, heck half the time I still hitting the 3rd button press and it is moving.
Is that slight pause, really... "that" big of a deal?

And with the last one... in what time frame? 
For the last 8 months (before the 1st of the year was the last time), my units have not failed to record a show that I have told it too...

And if you want to say... but it did before...
Well... my HR10-250 managed to miss a few because it was locked up, and I missed a full nights worth of recordings (including 24)...


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> That wasn't his response at all. He basically said, none of those things you listed affect me. And I have to agree with him. You list a delay of 1-3 seconds with trick plays, but I have never seen that on my HR20. Never. So what are people like me and say-what supposed to say? Are we supposed to agree with your assertion that that the HR20 is basically a POS, when our units have never displayed that problem? Are we supposed to agree with the people complaining about constant missed recordings, when ours have never even missed one?
> 
> I don't see anyone saying that nobody has problems with their HR20. Clearly that's a completely inaccurate thing to say. But it seems like the people who have these problems simply cannot believe that there are people out there who don't. You think that we're just cheerleaders who are blind to the problems with our units. We're not. Have you ever thought about it in reverse? Maybe we're "cheerleaders" *because* our units never have problems...


+1 & exactly.

While I can see & acknowledge that others have had problems, that's not my experience and I can only grade the unit based on my experience. I'm not saying I don't care about your problems and that I like the HR20 even though I am secretly having the same chronic problems that you describe, I'm saying that I have not experienced those problems on either unit I have and therefore I like the HR20.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Well, these four pages of posts should tell us all something about the HR20. It disappointments many people. Although the thread was supposed to be about a year with the HR20, its turned into a thread about a year of frustration, disappointment for many, and clearly a DVR that still does not function as it should.

No doubt many, including me, appreciate the CE process, and the resulting improvements, but to charge a monthly DVR fee and $299 for a "lease" fee, only to be alpha or beta testers certainly is not good p.r. for Directv.

The reason folks keep bringing TIVO into the discussion is the for the vast majority, that was a product that worked, was highly rated, and easy to use. So, with that being said, Directv should go back to TIVO. The HR20 experiment has failed to produce a reliable DVR. A year is too long to eliminate material bugs.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> The Channels I Get bug affects everybody, so don't try and tell me you've never seen it or it isn't important.


It's not a bug, it's a feature that isn't available yet. I don't ever use Autorecords, so honestly not having Channels I Get working properly makes no difference to me. I have my Favorites list setup so I only see my channels in the guide, and that's all I really need. I can see how CIG is important to some people, but *for me* it's inconsequential.


BubbaDude said:


> And don't try and tell me that you can press FF three times and see the screen changing with no delay.


I never said there was no delay, I said that it's nowhere near a 1-3 second delay. Maybe a quarter second, half second at the most. If I were seeing a 1-3 second delay at this point, I'd get my HR20 replaced.


BubbaDude said:


> And don't try to tell me that your HR20 never fails to record a show that you've told it to record.


I will tell you that my HR20 has *never once* failed to record a show that I've told it to record. *Never. Once.* From day one until today, it has recorded every single thing I've wanted. That is not an exaggeration, that is not "ignoring bugs," that is the plain fact.


BubbaDude said:


> You've decided that the bugs in the unit aren't important, and that's fine, but don't try and tell me there are no bugs.


The only thing you listed that even applies to my box is CIG, and that's not a bug any more than missing DLB is a bug. Both are features that are unavailable, and both may or may not be important to you. Neither of them are important to me, and so they don't weigh into my opinion on the HR20. Why should they?


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Channels I Get Bug does appear on everyone's system... but it doesn't necessarily "affect" everyone... I personally don't use any auto-search recordings, and I know what channels I receive.... But it does need to be fixed, and it is not an HR20 "thing"... the entire DirecTV system's CIR/CIG functionality is disabled.


Right, Earl, there are people who don't care about the bugs, and there are people who've been trained by the HR20 not to ask it to anything that it can't do, I understand that, but I'm not one of them, I'm a new HR20 user and an old TiVo and Replay user.

The only thing I'm trying to point out is that the HR20 is still a buggy device that doesn't live up to the claims DTV makes for it.

And no amount user domestication or willful denial changes that fact.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BubbaDude said:


> Interesting comment. Perhaps you can rate some features for me.
> 
> 1. Trick play modes have a delay of 1-3 seconds before anything happens, fine or acceptable?
> 2. "Channels I Get" is totally wrong, fine or acceptable?
> ...


Have you tried swapping that DVR for a new or refurb? Sounds like a bad unit. I have 3 700s and they work as they should.

Regarding third party remotes, I have tried them and I prefer to use the mote that comes with the unit. I almost bought a Harmony yesterday at Costco, but couldn't face learning something new.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> The only thing you listed that even applies to my box is CIG, and that's not a bug any more than missing DLB is a bug.


How many people feel as Jeremy does that the CIG behavior of the HR20 is not a bug?


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Have you tried swapping that DVR for a new or refurb? Sounds like a bad unit. I have 3 700s and they work as they should.


Every one of these bugs has been reported by numerous other people on this board, so I'm confident they're not unique to my unit. Thank you for your suggestion, however.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> there are people who've been trained by the HR20 not to ask it to anything that it can't do


You are so full of yourself! I never used Wishlists on my Tivo god box either. I specifically pick out the stuff I want to record, always have and always will. The most control the DVR gets is with a Series Link/Season Pass. That's how I chose to use my Tivo, and that's how I continue to use my HR20.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> How many people feel as Jeremy does that the CIG behavior of the HR20 is not a bug?


Sorry...
What is CIG?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> What is CIG?


Channels I Get, aka Channels I Receive or CIR.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Channels I Get, aka Channels I Receive or CIR.


Hum, guess I don't miss it. :lol:


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

BubbaDude said:


> How many people feel as Jeremy does that the CIG behavior of the HR20 is not a bug?


Maybe you should start another poll about this. It's a problem, but it's not an HR20-specific bug.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> Hum, guess I don't miss it. :lol:


What? You mean you don't wake up every morning cursing the fact that it doesn't work? Stop lying to us!


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> What? You mean you don't wake up every morning cursing the fact that it doesn't work? Stop lying to us!


It's not the DVR I curse in the morning when I wake up and it is not working! :lol:

EDIT
Sorry, what is the topic of this thread?


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

BubbaDude said:


> And don't try to tell me that your HR20 never fails to record a show that you've told it to record.


Why, would the fact that my HR20 records reliably f&$% up your agenda?


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Channels I Get Bug does appear on everyone's system... but it doesn't necessarily "affect" everyone... I personally don't use any auto-search recordings, and I know what channels I receive.... But it does need to be fixed, and it is not an HR20 "thing"... the entire DirecTV system's CIR/CIG functionality is disabled.


But there are work arounds for non-DVR+ units. DTivos allow you to edit your CIG list. Why this hasn't come out for the HR20 is beyond me.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

bidger said:


> Why, would the fact that my HR20 records reliably f&$% up your agenda?


I'm pretty sure your HR20 works the same way mine does, it's our expectations that are different.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Funny, but I thought this board was about the HR20, not about the HR20's users.


What does that even mean?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BubbaDude said:


> Right, Earl, there are people who don't care about the bugs, and there are people who've been trained by the HR20 not to ask it to anything that it can't do, I understand that, but I'm not one of them, I'm a new HR20 user and an old TiVo and Replay user.
> 
> The only thing I'm trying to point out is that the HR20 is still a buggy device that doesn't live up to the claims DTV makes for it.
> 
> And no amount user domestication or willful denial changes that fact.


Since last November, I purchased the first 700 and immediately purchased the second 700. Got very disgusted with the problems I had with them, complained, and got a 700 free. Couple of weeks ago, I called up and asked for another free HR20 and received my first 100. Wouldn't record. Sent it back for a replacement. That had a loudly buzzing HD. Sent it back and got another 100 that couldn't receive a signal from any remote. Sent it back and got another 100 that my son has been using for a week or so and seems to be functioning correctly.

1 out of 4 in a week is hard to believe, but the end result was worth the bother. If I were having the type of problems you are having, I would keep sending them back until I got units that work correctly. I have 3 700s and went thru close to 20 units to get 3 that function correctly. All 3 are hooked up to eSATAs and have never missed a scheduled recording.

Call up D* and ask for a replacement. Might take a while to convince a CSR, but there is always the "won't boot up" statement (I have never had to resort to that, but have had several TiVos that would not get past the "Welcome" screen, which denotes a bad HD). If the replacement does not satisfy you, get another and another until you are happy.

You sound just as justifiably frustrated as I did last November, but 16 or 17 700s and 4 100s later, I have to admit I am getting to trust the HR20s, but I will continue to back up "must see" programs on my TiVos for the next year or so.

By the way, you can pretty much take Earl's answers and opinions to the bank. He's usually right on the button with his posts. He does get frustrated at times, but calms down quickly and doesn't seem to bear grudges against those who disagree with him, when he knows he is right. And VOS and bonScott are usually right too.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

Very nice work, Well Done!

----

My 2 cents 

As I near the 10 month anniversary and 1,200 posts on DBSTalk (thank you Chris) I wanted to take a look back at my experiences with the HR20-700.

I, like many, got my HR-20 in the late summer / early fall of 2006. I came from a Dish Network single tuner SD PVR501. I never owned or desired to own a Tivo and came to DirecTV on a recommendation from a friend and neighbor (PackFan909). I spent the first 30 days of HR-20 ownership thinking I had made a huge mistake. My Dish PVR501 was rock solid... why did I get rid of my PVR501 and leave Dish when it was a workhorse? I prayed and prayed my HR-20 would be as much of a workhorse as the R-15 I acquired with my DirecTV install.

10 months later, I look back on the experience with fond memories. Not to insinuate the HR-20 is PERFECT but worlds apart from where we started. I now rely on my HR-20. I now pray and pray my R-15 will perform as well as my HR-20.

I don't work for DirecTV, I don't work for DBSTalk. I'm just a guy that loves my HR-20.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Do we know it is the hardware? I thought it was the software?


I would think it is the hardware's inability (for whatever reason) to deal with the software, thus being a true "hardware" problem.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I would think it is the hardware's inability (for whatever reason) to deal with the software, thus being a true "hardware" problem.


I agree. It's hard to separate hardware from software in many of these problems. Hardware components are built with certain tolerances. The tighter the tolerances, the more expensive the component. The looser the tolerances, the less expensive the components. Loose specs lead to variability in the hardware's behavior, which creates a more difficult job for the software. This can also account for some of the wildly varying experiences many have had with the HR20. As the software continues to get more fault tolerant, the boxes should begin to exhibit more uniform behavior.

Even though I still have a very few, very specific issues, I really like my HR20, and congratulate all those that have given their time and contributed to the improvements we have seen over the last year. Well done.


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## NorfolkBruh (Jun 9, 2007)

Can I take this back to the reason for this THREAD? Very good synopsis! It's not about how great the HR20 is nor how horrible it is! It's not about DirecTV and using DBSTalk and D*s customers at guinea pigs (ALPHA/BETA testers). It's a synopsis of a year in the life of the HR20.

Since I am one of those who have lurked the boards for quite a while and have had ZERO problems with either of my 700's AND was a first recipient of the HR10-250 in the Baltimore area (lawd the trials we endured!!) I appreciate this history of my 2 units.

This won't help but I use my HR10's as my primary units (bedroom and home theater) and my HR20's in the dog's bedroom and the guest room. I find MY HR20 is GREAT for playing Bejeweled and that is the ONLY thing I use it for! 'Splains why I have NO probs doesn't it!!

Brott, Earl, Milo, Hasan, Tom, et al THANK YOU FOR THE WORK YOU VOLUNTEER FOR all OF US! One day I will actually make this my primary unit but in the meantime LONG LIVE DBSTALK!


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

NorfolkBruh said:


> This won't help but I use my HR10's as my primary units (bedroom and home theater) and my HR20's in the dog's bedroom and the guest room. I find MY HR20 is GREAT for playing Bejeweled and that is the ONLY thing I use it for! 'Splains why I have NO probs doesn't it!!


Dude, you just about caused a ruckus where I work, I laughed out loud reading this and now everybody wants to know that's so funny. Thanks for a good laugh.:lol:


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

I find myself posting to this thread once again for a very good reason.

This thread started off taking a look back at the HR20's first year. The posts and conversations since that point have pretty much summed up that first year. So in effect, this thread now does give a pretty accurate picture of what this past year was like. In terms of the HR20 and in terms of the personalities and opinions here on DBSTalk.


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## NorfolkBruh (Jun 9, 2007)

You're very welcome! :lol: Actually it's very true! Since I don't want to pay extra to cancel the HR20's at least the pooches and the guests can "say" they got to use the latest technology from their buddy the "First Adopter Extraordinaire!" :hurah:

Oh... and Bejeweled is the B*O*M*B!

Now... back the the purpose of this thread.... :grin:



BubbaDude said:


> Dude, you just about caused a ruckus where I work, I laughed out loud reading this and now everybody wants to know that's so funny. Thanks for a good laugh.:lol:


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## jamesflames (Jan 29, 2007)

> This thread started off taking a look back at the HR20's first year. The posts and conversations since that point have pretty much summed up that first year. So in effect, this thread now does give a pretty accurate picture of what this past year was like. In terms of the HR20 and in terms of the personalities and opinions here on DBSTalk.


I agree. I myself had little "major" problems with my HR20. Pinky was there, my zip code wasn't cached, I had audio dropouts and trickplay wasn't as smooth as it should be but that was pretty much my only problems. Never, I repeat, never had to do a RBR. The only time I reset was the software reset to download CE's. I consider myself lucky.


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## VLaslow (Aug 16, 2006)

Whomever convinced D* to use this group for testing and feedback deserves to be the "Business Person of the Year." It is just smart business. Earl and the senior management staff at D* have created something that others WILL follow. I'll enjoy reading about it in future management essays.

Thanks for the reminders of what has been accomplished and what is left to do.


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## spexet (Jan 12, 2007)

Just a critique from the peanut gallery...the article was nice and cheery, but some of the messages that follow make me glad I never bought the HR20.

Cost and commitment issues aside, I think the real kicker (in the head) for me is reading stuff like "I use the HR20 in the guest room, so everything works" and "I love my HR20, but I make sure to record on the Tivo as well, just in case the HR20 loses it." (I'm paraphrasing here.)

Say what? Use a Tivo as a backup because the HR20 isn't dependable enough? Ridiculous. Put the HR20 in the guest room, and say it works great because you only do one thing with it? I'm glad it works for you, but I'll pass.

DirecTV may have made a box that fits their business commitments (identical UI to their other receivers, etc.), but they really need to get back to DVR basics...like reliability and consistency. A box that records what I want, when I want it, without hassles. Simple stuff like that...


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

BubbaDude said:


> How many people feel as Jeremy does that the CIG behavior of the HR20 is not a bug?


Yep. Definitely NOT a bug. It was disabled by D*. Sorry to burst your bubble.


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Agree that this stormy thread is a true reflection of the HR20's virgin year. Let's face it, if it was a solid consumer electronics product out of the box, DBSTalk would be what it was before the HR20 emerged ... a small, barely noticed forum. Now, due to the volatility of the HR20, DBSTalk was almost immediately transformed into center court for the "it's great" vs. " it sux" struggle.

While no one, not even Earl, would say the HR20 was a solid machine back in September of '06 (though I do believe Earl did sort of take that position along with several other DBSTalkers), the fact that this debate rages on is proof positive that the thing is still unreliable for a decent portion of users, not some vocal minority. This seemingly endless debate goes on for a reason, the HR20 is a year old, and it's still not right. If it was, DBSTalk would return to the days of peace, calm and data/tip trading.

Just check out the CNET user ratings (still a 4.3 out of 10). Logic says that if the HR20 were fixed as the year progressed for most users, the results would have skewed to a higher score as the year wore on. But if you track the past 2-3 months, the scores are either 9-10 or 1-2, extreme positions both. That in effect says that for half the users, a good deal, for the other half, a crappy deal. A 50 percent approval rating might be good for W (he wishes), but for a piece of consumer electronics gear, it stinks.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Tugboat said:


> A 50 percent approval rating might be good for W (he wishes), but for a piece of consumer electronics gear, it stinks.


You have to realize that not everyone is rating it on the same criteria. There are some people out there who will rate the HR20 at 0 out of 10 and nothing higher until it has DLBs. Is that fair? Sure, if they hate the box that much because it doesn't have DLBs, give it a 0. But is that an accurate depiction of the state of the HR20 at this time? Not at all.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

First, I repeat -- great job on your article guys!

After that, I'm only going to comment once about this bashing garbage and then abandon this thread. Start with "It disappointments many people." Seems to me it may disappoint a few people who just want to repeat the same old, same old. Sad you have problems -- I'm with the "many" who don't have any or very few.

As for Tivo, it was limited, it was a mediocre interface, and I'm glad I don't have to deal with it any more. Kudos to D* for making the break.



jal said:


> Well, these four pages of posts should tell us all something about the HR20. It disappointments many people. Although the thread was supposed to be about a year with the HR20, its turned into a thread about a year of frustration, disappointment for many, and clearly a DVR that still does not function as it should.
> 
> No doubt many, including me, appreciate the CE process, and the resulting improvements, but to charge a monthly DVR fee and $299 for a "lease" fee, only to be alpha or beta testers certainly is not good p.r. for Directv.
> 
> The reason folks keep bringing TIVO into the discussion is the for the vast majority, that was a product that worked, was highly rated, and easy to use. So, with that being said, Directv should go back to TIVO. The HR20 experiment has failed to produce a reliable DVR. A year is too long to eliminate material bugs.


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> You have to realize that not everyone is rating it on the same criteria. There are some people out there who will rate the HR20 at 0 out of 10 and nothing higher until it has DLBs. Is that fair? Sure, if they hate the box that much because it doesn't have DLBs, give it a 0. But is that an accurate depiction of the state of the HR20 at this time? Not at all.


Just using raw numbers, which count for something. Same can be true for the positive numbers, no? The logic behind the vote isn't relevant, because every rating could be based on a single issue or many issues. Read the negatives, and toss any that say DLBs is the reason they rated it 1 or 2. The numbers would still be 4.x out of 10 on average, still below 50 percent. Why can't you just accept the ratings for what they are, ratings by end users. There are 8s, 9s and 10s. I don't question those raters, so why do you have to question the people who are having problems, aren't happy, etc? Seems this basic rating system on CNET actually works in that it reflects a self-selected sample of end users relating their experience with a product. I challenge you to find 6 or 7 products on CNET that have a lower average rating than the HR20, (with more than 200 reviews). You won't. Maybe a couple, but not many. And yes, CNET rated it 7.4, but they represent only a single user.

FYI, my rating on CNET for the HR20 way back in the early days was around a 5. I'd raise it to a 6, but to be a solid consumer product, I'd say it needs a consistent 7 ot 8. It's not getting those to this day.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Thanks guys, I enjoyed reading the article and the first few posts.

After reading the whole thread, however, I realize that some people will just never be happy.

The unit has taken some great strides over the past year (which, I believe, was the point), and while it's not perfect (which wasn't the point), I believe it will continue to improve based on the relationship between this forum and D* (which, I believe, was also the point).

Thanks to all involved for their CE attitude and hard work.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

I have a question.

For those of you who feel that the review was too positive, could you tell me:

_What did we miss?_

We included 33 separate bugs and negative comments. Count 'em.

We did not just mention the bugs and problems, we told of the efforts to resolve the problems and the people who spear-headed key efforts.

To name a few, we included problems with CC, CID, HDMI, Trickplay, OTA, Guide button, Aninmations, Low VHF, PPV, and our favorite bug, Pinky.

We noted that Title Search Autorecord, VOD, and CIR still need to be done. I added a copy of another post from the same day detailing the missing promised features.

_What did we miss?_

- Craig


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I have a question.
> 
> For those of you who feel that the review was too positive, could you tell me:
> 
> ...


In my book you missed nothing.

But for the naysayers if you had concluded with:

All HR20 supporters wear rose-colored glasses and
it's still a substandard consumer electronics device
(aka a POS).

..then you'd have made them happy as well.


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

I didn't mean to impugn your hard work on the update. I just wanted to point out that the thread does reflect the stormy history of the HR20, which you also documented. Thanks to all of you. But my guess is the "wild and exciting ride" is far from over for a decent percentage of HR20 users. To them, the ride is still quite bumpy, something they did not really expect when they plunked down their $299, for a leased machine no less.

So I don't believe it was too positive, just maybe a tad too optimistic based on the ongoing issues people still seem to be having a year later (and I am not talking about missing features). It's an unprecedented event, I'd say, when it takes all those person-hours, paid and unpaid, to get a piece of consumer electronics working properly, if you can even say that. It just blows me away. A great case study at some business school, I'd say.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> I have a question.
> 
> For those of you who feel that the review was too positive, could you tell me:
> 
> ...


----------



## Travisimo (Aug 4, 2007)

I bought the HR10-250 over 2 years ago when it was going for over $700. I've had a love-hate relationship with the unit, and over the last few weeks, it started to lock up frequently and was apparently nearing death.

Having just recently upgraded to the HR20, I appreciated the article for the historical value and for the information on how the unit has improved over the last year. I knew from its release that I was going to wait to upgrade, especially since the OTA tuners were not operational for some time. Since it's probably going to be some time before my area (Quad Cities, IL) gets the HD locals, OTA is very important to me. Thankfully, the OTA tuners in the HR20 are noticeably better than the HR10 (which have been flaky at best for me over the last two years). So far, I'm really liking the unit though like many others, there are a few features I miss. But I'm looking forward to the new channels later this year, and I really appreciate the faster speed when compared to the HR10.

Anyway, that's my quick little anecdote and I just wanted to say thanks for the write-up.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I have a question.
> 
> For those of you who feel that the review was too positive, could you tell me:
> 
> ...


Craig,

Don't feel obligated to explain yourself to the naysayers.

Some are always going to see the glass as half-empty, others, as half full.

I just reread the article again this morning, and I still say it's well written and fairly represents how things were and where they are now.

--Matt


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I'd like to thank everyone here that has taken the opportunity to read the article that Craig, Stuart and I put together.

The three of us are enthusiasts when it comes to the HR20, but each of us has also had our own troubles with the HR20 over the past year. Rather than simply complain, we have chosen to offer our help in any way we can to bring improvements to the HR20. DBSTalk.com has been the source of some great ideas and discussion and as a result, the HR20 is better today than it was last year. There is still work to be done on the HR20.

Thank you DBSTalk.com and Contributers. I do have a fondness for what has transpired despite the troubles. We went to battle together without knowing each other and found some good friends along the way. Cheers to all and let's try to keep a happy face.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Of course, Doug speaks for me as well. I have enjoyed the first year of HR20's stay in my home and am very glad to have made a lot of friends here too. 

I think it's really important to remember that a lot of the positives that have happened along the way has been due to DBSTalk members working together to identify issues and report them faithfully. The trust that DIRECTV has put in us has been great!


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

lamontcranston said:


> I think it's really important to remember that a lot of the positives that have happened along the way has been due to DBSTalk members working together to identify issues and report them faithfully. The trust that DIRECTV has put in us has been great!


I believe with that statement you have drastically underestimated the impact of DBSTalk members on the HR20. There's no doubt in my mind that without this forum D* would have never been able to pull the HR20 up from what it was.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

The trust that DirecTV has put in us has been great, and has earned them my trust as well.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Nice review of the past years history! The only thing I see missing is the continuing vertical stretch. After quite some time with the last national release, I experienced the vertical stretch the evening of the latest CE, so that was my reason for getting it. So far so good with version 184. 

Anyway, nice article.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

brott said:


> I'd like to thank everyone here that has taken the opportunity to read the article that Craig, Stuart and I put together.
> 
> The three of us are enthusiasts when it comes to the HR20, but each of us has also had our own troubles with the HR20 over the past year. Rather than simply complain, we have chosen to offer our help in any way we can to bring improvements to the HR20. DBSTalk.com has been the source of some great ideas and discussion and as a result, the HR20 is better today than it was last year. There is still work to be done on the HR20...


Doug,

I could not have said it better.

- Craig


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> lamontcranston said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's really important to remember that a lot of the positives that have happened along the way has been due to DBSTalk members working together to identify issues and report them faithfully. The trust that DIRECTV has put in us has been great!
> ...


 Ummm, isn't that what *LC* said? What am I missing?

/steve, aka "Confused in NY"


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Steve said:


> Ummm, isn't that what *LC* said? What am I missing?
> 
> /steve, aka "Confused in NY"


DUH! LC stated "a lot" of the progress was due to DBSTalk, and I stated I thought he underestimated the DBSTalk impact. Point being that I believe "most, if not all" progress was due to DBSTalk. If the CE program never was.....I just don't think the brain trust at D* could have dug themselves out of the hole they dug themselves into on their own.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> DUH! LC stated "a lot" of the progress was due to DBSTalk, and I stated I thought he underestimated the DBSTalk impact. Point being that I believe "most, if not all" progress was due to DBSTalk. If the CE program never was.....I just don't think the brain trust at D* could have dug themselves out of the hole they dug themselves into on their own.


I ask this with all sincerity, and I apologize if you already explained this somewhere and I overlooked it, but ... why are you still with DIRECTV if you are this unhappy? You clearly have no faith in their developers. You clearly have no love for the hardware or the software. Why not cut your losses from DIRECTV and the HR20 entirely? Or do you enjoy suffering as much as you seemingly are?


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I ask this with all sincerity, and I apologize if you already explained this somewhere and I overlooked it, but ... why are you still with DIRECTV if you are this unhappy? You clearly have no faith in their developers. You clearly have no love for the hardware or the software. Why not cut your losses from DIRECTV and the HR20 entirely? Or do you enjoy suffering as much as you seemingly are?


This is an Interesting question, one that I get asked a lot. I can't answer for bto4wd, obviously, but I can tell you why I haven't dumped DTV despite my dissatisfaction with the HR20. Essentially, it's not costing me anything to have an HR20. They gave me a free upgrade and waived my rental fee, and allowed me to keep my TiVo hooked up, so the HR20's many raging bugs don't affect anything but HDTV for me. I figure that sometime before they begin charging me for the HR20 the bugs will be substantially fixed or they're going to get the unit back and waive the commitment.

The only other way I can get the programming I want right now - FSN Bay Area in HD - is from cable, and I'm not excited about that alternative as they still broadcast lots of stuff in analog, and that's too yucky.

But you weren't asking me, so pardon the interruption.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I ask this with all sincerity, and I apologize if you already explained this somewhere and I overlooked it, but ... why are you still with DIRECTV if you are this unhappy? You clearly have no faith in their developers. You clearly have no love for the hardware or the software. Why not cut your losses from DIRECTV and the HR20 entirely? Or do you enjoy suffering as much as you seemingly are?


I'm not unhappy with D*. I'm critical of them. I'm critical because I want them to succeed. I have no doubt most of the D*Fenders out there have no idea what I'm talking about. So be it. But for those of you with an open mind, read further.

I've been a D* customer since 1997. I honestly believe they provide the best programming package for me. I've got multiple DVRs, subscribe to Total Choice Premium and NFLST for years. Just 30 days ago I ordered 2 HR20s and re-upped my 2 year commitment.

Up until the News Corp days I had absolutely no complaints about D*. I recommended them to everyone I talked to. Then, under the esteemed leadership/greediness of RM/News Corp, D* started to venture into business areas that were not their core business areas. First D* attempts to release their own SD DVR. Starting the DVR+ line with the R15. Which ended up being a failure 2 years ago and IMO still doesn't even compare to any other SD DVR on the market. Once D* realized that using the NDS software didn't work, they started developing their own. The result was the HR20. Now this was all D* software and once again rushed to market. Not ready for prime time. Add to that D*s foray into their own production department with the "101" and "Ultimate Gaming". All items a media company wants to do, but not necessarily a SAT broadcaster.

DirecTV was/is a great provider of SAT programming. They are not a production company, they are not a DVR development company. We will soon see if they can effectively provide VOD. Adding items like Game Lounge to receivers and making that any type of priority over their core business is ridiculous. Anyone can play those games on their PC, their Palm, even their cell phone.

I believe DirecTV lost focus of their strengths under the News Corp regime. The result was alienating long time, high revenue customers such as myself.

To sum up Drew, I'm not unhappy. If it were not for a few of us "negative" members here (which most, I'm sure, would rather we not be here) this forum would be nothing other than a hug fest of D*/HR20 loving flower children. I will not settle for what I'm given if it doesn't at the minimum match what I've had for the past 3-4 years. I will call attention to areas that D* has problems with in hopes they address those problems. Simply jumping on the band wagon and giving praise to D* for the progress they've made with the HR20 doesn't cut it in my mind. Yes they've made progress. But they made progress because the HR20 was so bad when it was released there was nowhere to go other than up.

My full hopes are that Liberty will make an honest attempt to fix the problems caused by News Corp. I'm here for the long term to try to help D* as at this moment (and for the next 1 year 11 months) D* is my provider.

I hope this explanation helps.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Good post and I agree with most of it.



bto4wd said:


> If it were not for a few of us "negative" members here (which most, I'm sure, would rather we not be here) this forum would be nothing other than a hug fest of D*/HR20 loving flower children. I will not settle for what I'm given if it doesn't at the minimum match what I've had for the past 3-4 years. I will call attention to areas that D* has problems with in hopes they address those problems. Simply jumping on the band wagon and giving praise to D* for the progress they've made with the HR20 doesn't cut it in my mind. Yes they've made progress. But they made progress because the HR20 was so bad when it was released there was nowhere to go other than up.


However you should realize that even the biggest supporters of the HR20 still criticize it and demand improvement. About a month or so ago we had a big go around about the CIR issue and more importantly how CIR will not fix autorecords for sports. I and many other "supporters" were posting very critical things in that thread.

However, I realize that posting every day about it like the DLB crowd does nothing and gets it nowhere. Just beating the dead horse really. DirecTV is aware of the issues and I'll let it be. I personally will bring up autorecord problems again in a couple months and we'll have another go around and remind DirecTV the issue is still important.

For me, posting over and over again about things that annoy me only gives me an ulser. I'll hammer home the point and move on and bring it back up later on if no movement is seen.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> For me, posting over and over again about things that annoy me only gives me an ulser. I'll hammer home the point and move on and bring it back up later on if no movement is seen.


Cool. I agree with you also. (Wait for the heavens to fall :lol: )

I guess from my POV I don't rehash anything. I have a thread or two on the fact the HR20-100 can't tell time. I also cannot understand how DLBs were not designed into the HR20.

Beating a dead horse does play a role in that the squeaky wheel gets the oil syndrome. However I don't believe I've been :beatdeadhorse: in my posts. I'm usually starting something new. :grin:


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

bto4wd said:


> I'm not unhappy with D*. I'm critical of them. I'm critical because I want them to succeed. I have no doubt most of the D*Fenders out there have no idea what I'm talking about. So be it. But for those of you with an open mind, read further.
> 
> I've been a D* customer since 1997. I honestly believe they provide the best programming package for me. I've got multiple DVRs, subscribe to Total Choice Premium and NFLST for years. Just 30 days ago I ordered 2 HR20s and re-upped my 2 year commitment.
> 
> ...


X2 on this post, although I took the HR20 plunge much earlier than BTO. In fact, we think exactly the same. Directv's decision to create/turn to the CE Forum seems to be one borne out of desperation for releasing a poorly performing consumer electronics device. While seemingly noble on the surface, it was nothing more than a bailout strategy, in fact, with labor that didn't cost them a dime. Good for HR20 owners (most of them at least), but a sad commentary on how to run a business. Sure, HD DVRs, at least the ones set up for MPEG4, are new technology. But that's really no excuse.

Anyway, I am practically word for word in the same boat as BTO. Not unhappy, just disgusted at News Corp's management of DTV. Maybe things will change with Liberty, maybe not. But in 1999, when I moved to satellite from cable, Directv was really the only alternative, and a great one. I was thrilled, and I had HD as soon as it was available. Loved it, even if I couldn't record it. I never bought an HR10-250, just didn't want to spend the money.

I even remember telling my wife, "Wow, wait until Rupert takes over and Directv reduces rates and delivers HD, etc." She's still rubbing it in.

Today, as it stands, DTV is not that much different than cable, except it was smart enough to nail down a deal with the NFL. I used a Comcast HD DVR for a week on vacation this summer, and it worked okay. Good enough to move back to cable? No. But a year from now, when my contract expires, we'll see if Cable, FiOS, Dish, etc., are viable as alternatives.

Anyway, there is a good reason for people like BTO making noise about Directv's failings. Fact is, if it wasn't for the so-called naysayers, Directv might have left well enough alone to some extent. Way back in January, Robert Mercer, the DTV PR guy, claimed major HR20 problems had been resolved via software updates, and they had not (nor have they yet, especially if you consider missing features like CIR).

I've been reading this forum for a year, and I remember some posters way back in September 2006 claiming the HR20 was a masterpiece right out of the box. No need to name names; they are on record. And they attacked anyone with a differing opinion from the get-go.

Anyway, great to see all the work done by the CE folks. Thanks. You all get an "A" for effort. But Directv? A "C+ or a D" at best for its sad string of business decisions under the News Corp. banner. Depending on volunteers to bail them out? Pretty pathetic. And it's not the same as beta testing programs at Microsoft, etc. Those are formal programs set up before a product is released. I bought a plasma TV, home audio gear, a DVD recorder, etc., and none of them asked me to test their product along the way. Same with my PCs. No testing required, apart from security downloads, etc.

No need to attack. Just wanted to let BTO know he's not alone.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Tugboat said:


> Depending on volunteers to bail them out? Pretty pathetic.


So what would you have had DirecTV do, after they realized that all of the money they sunk into the development of the HR20 produced a DVR that was sub-par at best? Scrap it? Keep plowing ahead with the same strategy that clearly wasn't working? I hear you and others like you keep saying this same thing over and over, but you never offer any other ideas.

The CE program was an EXCELLENT idea. It started too late for the HR20, but it's very obvious that DirecTV has learned their lesson. Look at the SWM. Look at the H21. These products are being put in the hands of informed and willing testers *before* being put on the market, the way they should be. I'm sure that they won't stop with the H21, either. The HR20 experience will not be repeated.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tugboat said:


> While seemingly noble on the surface, it was nothing more than a bailout strategy, in fact, with labor that didn't cost them a dime. Good for HR20 owners (most of them at least), but a sad commentary on how to run a business.


Free labor seems like a good business plan to me.


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## spexet (Jan 12, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> The HR20 experience will not be repeated.


Given the past history of the HR20, this looks like a very optimistic prediction. On what basis do you make this claim?

So far, DirecTV has released DVRs that, initially at least, were of "questionable" quality. They then looked to volunteer efforts like those on this forum, to help in finding bugs and other "deficiencies".

Some problems were fixed. Others (e.g. lack of DLB) were not.

In the meantime, DirecTV is receiving money from the customer...both an up-front cost, as well as a lease fee...all for a box that the customer does not own.

What part of this experience will *not* be repeated?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

spexet said:


> On what basis do you make this claim?


I explained it in my post, you just decided to take the last sentence completely out of context. Go back and read the rest, I'm not going to repeat myself.


spexet said:


> Some problems were fixed. Others (e.g. lack of DLB) were not.


Lack of DLB is not a problem. It is a feature that DirecTV decided not to include, and nothing more than that.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Lack of DLB is not a problem. It is a feature that DirecTV decided not to include, and nothing more than that.


This from the guy who said CIG is not a bug, just a missing feature. Sheesh.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

As I recall, many members of DBStalk _requested_ that D* utillze this forum to improve the HR20. There was much criticism of D* about not utilizing such a great resource until that came to pass.

No wonder D* was hesitant. They probably realized they would then be open to the "free labor" and "asked us to test it" type of comments.

Maybe I would see it differently if I had serious problems, I don't know, but I think I'd try to be a little more fair and really look at how things developed as they did.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

That's really not the point. They couldn't fix the mess they created by themselves (by abondoning TIVO and putting out a box riddled with software issues). So, with most of us having two year commitments, it was impossible to get away from the HR20 without legal haggles, etc. So, rather than switching providers, it was easier to assist with the CE process. In my opinion, what should have happened is that Directv should have abated the monthly lease fees while all the problems were being worked out. At least that way, folks would not feel so taken advantage of. 

Later on, however, when the CE process was about adding new features, it became a whole lot more fun, and something to which to look forward. In that respect, Directv is to be commended. However, earlier, by putting our a machine that clearly wasn't even ready for beta testing, Directv should be chastised.


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

BubbaDude said:


> This from the guy who said CIG is not a bug, just a missing feature. Sheesh.


And he was right on both counts.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> The HR20 experience will not be repeated.


You're right...not by me it won't...never again at least with DirecTV.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Lack of DLB is not a problem. It is a feature that DirecTV decided not to include, and nothing more than that.


I'm not so sure that was the case. I don't think any decision was made regarding DLB. I think D* wasn't even aware of what DLB was and how it's customers were using the feature.


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> So what would you have had DirecTV do, after they realized that all of the money they sunk into the development of the HR20 produced a DVR that was sub-par at best? Scrap it? Keep plowing ahead with the same strategy that clearly wasn't working? I hear you and others like you keep saying this same thing over and over, but you never offer any other ideas.
> 
> The CE program was an EXCELLENT idea. It started too late for the HR20, but it's very obvious that DirecTV has learned their lesson. Look at the SWM. Look at the H21. These products are being put in the hands of informed and willing testers *before* being put on the market, the way they should be. I'm sure that they won't stop with the H21, either. The HR20 experience will not be repeated.


Okay, unintentionally having to beg for free labor might be a good idea for the P&L, but as a business practice, it's a loser. What would I have them do? How about come clean and admit there were ongoing problems from the start (they did admit an issue in the first couple of months, but said it was fixed). How about easily giving those having problems a reprieve from the lease contract, so they could actually change providers without penalty? How about delivering all the features that are listed in the manual, something that they still haven't done?

Sure, they did the right thing fixing the HR20, but again, there are those on this site who from day one blamed everyone BUT Directv for the HR20's lousy launch and early troubles. THe HR20 will not be repeated? Considering the black eye Directv has deservedly earned for the HR20, in the media and elsewhere, I would hope not. Most of all, it won't happen because the new owners certainly can read.

I never said the CE idea was a bad one. Directv was just lucky in this case. They stumbled upon a built-in army of willing volunteers to bail them out. Not smart business or planning in my viiew.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

I just noticed this thread - nice work guys. I wasn't in the very first wave but I was onboard as early as DirecTV could get me a box (October 21, '06) and I well remember some of the bumps along the way. At the same time, we never had some of the totally rotten experiences others were having during that time frame. Whether those problems were due to quirks in local encoders (and some of them were), oddities of individual installations and wiring (and some of them were), or just a bad box (and some of them were), we never had them. We had a few black screen recordings (I'm the first one I know of to use the term BSOD - Black Screen of Death - if someone else did it first, I didn't know it when I did :lol: ), we had a few GUI lockups (about one every week to ten days), but really, that was about it. We never did a complete reformat, we never sent our box back and it continues to purr along just fine.

So for us at least, the pluses have far outweighed the minuses. It's been a fun ride. Thanks for the memories.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> I'm not so sure that was the case. I don't think any decision was made regarding DLB. I think D* wasn't even aware of what DLB was and how it's customers were using the feature.


If there was never a Tivo you'd never think about DLB. I would bet you that many new DVR owners have no clue what DLB is and definately don't miss it. It's a nice feature but it's not a necessary part of the DVR. I know mine works just fine right now without DLB.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> This from the guy who said CIG is not a bug, just a missing feature. Sheesh.


Maybe you can help me with a couple bugs in my Tivo. I can't seem to get the mini guide to work, and for some reason when I go into the List, I can no longer see or hear the program I was watching.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I hesitate to comment in this thread because I really don't want to fan the fires. But, I have decided to comment anyway.

I do not agree with the concept/statement that the CE process in and of itself was a "bailout", or that the HR20 would not have progressed without the CE process. DirecTV made both a major business investment and a major financial investment in the HR20. I have no doubt they would have achieved the improvements with or without the CE process. The fact that they did choose to involve the users in the CE program clearly indicates their desire to provide the best possible support. They very easily could have kept the process internal, but even if they had, you would still see the progress of the HR20. It may have progressed at a different pace. Some issues may not have been addressed as rapidly, while otheres may have been addressed more rapidly, but at the end of the day the improvements and fixes would still be there.

The arguments regarding News Corp being a media company as opposed to a DBS company, while true, are irrelevant to the HR20 discussion. Nor do those pursuits detract from DBS. I personally don't make use of any of the media functions, but it matters not a whit to me that they are there. 

Unrelenting generalized criticism accomplishes nothing. The squeeky wheel does not always get the oil, often time it breaks from being abused. There is certainly room for continued improvement in the HR20 (and the R15, and in any follow on products that may come along). The process of establishing and maintaining a "wish list" for the HR20 has proven to be extremelly valuable. There is much documentation of what needs to be done and there is ongoing evidence that DirecTV is making good use of that information. We have seen many very important issues resolved.

Working as a team, and presenting information in a reasoned, logical, manner, is going to result in much greater progress than is repeated shouting of your gripes. There is no question that many/most of the strongest DirecTV supporters on these forums, including the three gentlemen who produced the first year review, continue to have their own serious concerns with the HR20. However they have found that working "within the system" is providing much better progress than is being the so-called squeeky wheel.

Bottom line, there is a right way, and a wrong way, to do most anything. Working with DirecTV via these forums and the CE process is clearly the "right way" to gain improvements in the DVR Plus products. That does not mean you are happy with what is there today. Maybe you are, maybe you are not. But it does give you the best opportunity to get the products where you would like to see them.

Carl


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Coffey77 said:


> If there was never a Tivo you'd never think about DLB. I would bet you that many new DVR owners have no clue what DLB is and definately don't miss it. It's a nice feature but it's not a necessary part of the DVR. I know mine works just fine right now without DLB.


It is clearly indicated in the Motorola 6412/6416 (which is not a Tivo) as a feature. My wife may not know what "DLB" is but she knows what pushing the down arrow does on the R10 and she knows what the "swap" button does on the Motorola.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

I'm glad you posted Carl as your post hits, IMO, right on the money. DIRECTV could have done all of this without our help but they chose to work _with_ the customer and not for the customer. When I build classrooms and computer labs I like to ask the people who are going to use them things that they like to see as they are the ones who are going to be there day in and day out. You can lay out a floorplan that looks great on paper but you almost never cover every base. You can only hope to get close. The best way is face to face and that is what DBSTalk does for us, gives us a "face to face" opportunity with DIRECTV.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

carl6, great post.

+1


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## spexet (Jan 12, 2007)

carl6 said:


> Working with DirecTV via these forums and the CE process is clearly the "right way" to gain improvements in the DVR Plus products. That does not mean you are happy with what is there today. Maybe you are, maybe you are not. But it does give you the best opportunity to get the products where you would like to see them.


I think part of the issue really is: Who is the target customer for these products?

It's one thing to be an enthusiast, happily "working with DirecTV via these forums and the CE process". Enthusiasts will often put up with non-ideal product, because they're willing to work with the vendor to improve the product's quality.

However, the willingness to work with the vendor in this fashion is not something I'd expect from most customers. Most customers expect working product. If they don't get it, they take their money elsewhere.

In the end, DirecTV has some work to do when it comes to managing their customer relationships. Don't get me wrong....I've been a customer since the very beginning (DirecTV/USSB), and they offer a great service for the most part. However, selling low-quality stuff to the public (no matter what the reason) isn't going to win customers.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

spexet said:


> Just a critique from the peanut gallery...the article was nice and cheery, but some of the messages that follow make me glad I never bought the HR20.
> 
> Cost and commitment issues aside, I think the real kicker (in the head) for me is reading stuff like "I use the HR20 in the guest room, so everything works" and "I love my HR20, but I make sure to record on the Tivo as well, just in case the HR20 loses it." (I'm paraphrasing here.)
> 
> ...


If you were referring to my comments about backing up the HR20s with TiVos, I would like to refine my comments. I backed up my TiVos with other TiVos when recording shows like "24" and "Lost" and the "Sopranos" and many others. Had too many HDs fail on the TiVos to trust just one. And many of the shows I have recorded on TiVos have started late or finished before the show was over, so those comments you read about the HR20s being unreliable when compared to the TiVos are a tad overblown.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> DIRECTV could have done all of this without our help but they chose to work _with_ the customer and not for the customer.


It's also very clear that this was not D*s first choice. They did not choose to work _with_ the customer on the R15. They did not choose to work _with_ the customer on the release of the HR20. Their back was against the wall and at the end of 2006 they really had no other choice.

Go back to the posts in October & November. New software releases came out and typically broke as many functions as they fixed. I do not believe D* could have made the progress they have made on the HR20 without the CE process.

I see many posts on how the HR20 process will be written up in business journals because of it's innovative approach with involving customers. The only reason I can see this fiasco being written up is under the heading "Pitfalls and Problems - Lessons Learned.".



Coffey77 said:


> The best way is face to face and that is what DBSTalk does for us, gives us a "face to face" opportunity with DIRECTV.


Funny you should use that term as there is no "face to face" between the DBSTalk members and D*. As Earl reminds us, he doesn't work for D*. D* talks to Earl and Earl talks to the DBSTalk membership. How you consider that "face to face" is beyond me.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> Funny you should use that term as there is no "face to face" between the DBSTalk members and D*. As Earl reminds us, he doesn't work for D*. D* talks to Earl and Earl talks to the DBSTalk membership. How you consider that "face to face" is beyond me.


I had a feeling you pick on that part of the statement, hence the "quotes". Why you take things so literal is _beyond me_. It just shows how you obviously choose to interperet things to suit your own needs.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> It's also very clear that this was not D*s first choice. They did not choose to work _with_ the customer on the R15. They did not choose to work _with_ the customer on the release of the HR20. Their back was against the wall and at the end of 2006 they really had no other choice.


Most companies don't involve outside help. You ever test a DVD player when it first came out? How about your love, TiVo? Were you testing that and have they made it perfect for you? You ever on the panel to try out a VCR? Those all evolved over time and were *a lot less* feature inclusive than the HR20 is. From what you post here I can guarantee you'll find something wrong with anything.

For them to include us, regular customers, is monumental and unheard of in most industries. You are wrong as they *did* choose to work _with_ the customer because if they hadn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Where you interperet people as "D*-fenders" I interpret them as people who are proud and feel privelaged to be a part of the process.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> I had a feeling you pick on that part of the statement, hence the "quotes". Why you take things so literal is _beyond me_. It just shows how you obviously choose to interperet things to suit your own needs.


Damed if I do, damed if I don't. If someone reads between the lines they're accused of not being able to read. If someone takes what you type at face value we're being to literal. Okay, I give.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> Most companies don't involve outside help. You ever test a DVD player when it first came out? How about your love, TiVo? Were you testing that and have they made it perfect for you? You ever on the panel to try out a VCR? Those all evolved over time and were *a lot less* feature inclusive than the HR20 is. From what you post here I can guarantee you'll find something wrong with anything.
> 
> For them to include us, regular customers, is monumental and unheard of in most industries. You are wrong as they *did* choose to work _with_ the customer because if they hadn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> 
> Where you interperet people as "D*-fenders" I interpret them as people who are proud and feel privelaged to be a part of the process.


As a customer I've been involved in plenty of beta test programs. All under NDAs. Having customers involved in the testing process is nothing new.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> It's also very clear that this was not D*s first choice. They did not choose to work _with_ the customer on the R15. They did not choose to work _with_ the customer on the release of the HR20. Their back was against the wall and at the end of 2006 they really had no other choice.


So, what are you saying? People learn lessons in business every day. I'd be more afraid of a company that stands firm even as their business erodes. Things are always changing, the world is more connected today than ever. Heck, just yesterday I responded to an Octogenarian. I'm happy that there are 80+ year old folks enjoying this community, but it's not something that I expected.

As barriers are broken down, new avenues of opportunity arise. I don't have an R15, but I do know that there have been some issues with it. So what if it took DIRECTV an entire product cycle and then some to get it. We're there now and that's what counts. You keep bringing up the point that DIRECTV did it wrong in the past - well, seems to me that they have learned from those mistakes.

I choose to congratulate DIRECTV on making a wise choice and from what I'm reading, you choose to chastise them for not having the vision to do this from the beginning. Hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to look back and say what should have been done. If you find it so easy to know the right path, then please share it. Let's talk about what DIRECTV can do to be even better than they are today. The past is in the past and while it's an important informational tool, it's not a pathway for success.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Actually, a lot of companies do have beta programs for their software. Just about every major software company makes beta or RC software available to its members. Some even have their own employees and developers work with the people testing. 
Every major MMO developer opens their games up to public beta test (after closed beta test)...once again at no/low charge.
Many hardware companies like Nvidia for instance make beta versions of their software available as well. 
Oh, and many of them either don't charge for beta testing or charge a much reduced rate.
DirecTV didn't open the HR20 up to a CE program. What they did is sell/lease the box and then allow people to test their software updates while still paying full ticket for the service and the hardware.
The CE program which I guess is here and on another site is a positive step, but it's nothing new and, in many ways, not nearly as interactive with the developers as other similar programs.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I'm sorry, bto4wd, but you posted earlier that you are here to "help" ... Can you please remind me again how you are doing that?

It is by reminding us again and again of how bad things were and not acknowledging how good things are becoming? (But you would have to believe things are getting good, and I don't think you believe that.) You do seem to like to relive the past.

Are you helping by dismissing Earl, a known liaison with DIRECTV, as not as good as a direct representative from DIRECTV? What exactly does that accomplish?

I really just don't get it. The HR20 is improving with each software release. New features are being added. Yet all you can do is repeat how bad things were at the beginning. Yes - it was bad in the beginning, and all of us know our history. If we fail to learn from it, we repeat it. I think DIRECTV learned from it, and so has the DBSTalk community. We don't sit here like lemmings just accepting whatever DIRECTV hands us, we still ask for improvements, be they with search, FFW Correction, or even DLB. This is how the process currently works, and I think it's working well. I applaud DIRECTV for working through Earl with us and the folks here at DBSTalk to continue to improve the HR20. :up:


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Maybe you can help me with a couple bugs in my Tivo. I can't seem to get the mini guide to work, and for some reason when I go into the List, I can no longer see or hear the program I was watching.


Outstanding. :up:


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> Most companies don't involve outside help. You ever test a DVD player when it first came out? How about your love, TiVo? Were you testing that and have they made it perfect for you? You ever on the panel to try out a VCR? Those all evolved over time and were *a lot less* feature inclusive than the HR20 is. From what you post here I can guarantee you'll find something wrong with anything.
> 
> For them to include us, regular customers, is monumental and unheard of in most industries. You are wrong as they *did* choose to work _with_ the customer because if they hadn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> 
> Where you interperet people as "D*-fenders" I interpret them as people who are proud and feel privelaged to be a part of the process.


I have never had a DVD player, VCR or other consumer electronic product perform anywhere near as poorly as the HR20.

Please read my previous post regarding how "monumental" the CE program is.

Now, that's not to say the CE program is bad by any means...it isn't...it's just a fairly common occurrence.

What is a bit remarkable is the way DirecTV distances itself from the program. It's not linked to their site, there's not a lot of interaction between DirecTV and the testers...I haven't even seen a bug submittal form or database that's highly common in these types of undertakings.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I have never had a [...] VCR [...] perform anywhere near as poorly as the HR20.


Oh, I have ... I invariably messed up the recording options on my VCR once or twice a week when I used to use a VCR. I can't really blame that on the VCR as it was my fault, but the DVR world has done wonders for helping me out in that respect.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

brott said:


> Oh, I have ... I invariably messed up the recording options on my VCR once or twice a week when I used to use a VCR. I can't really blame that on the VCR as it was my fault, but the DVR world has done wonders for helping me out in that respect.




VCR Plus!


----------



## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I have never had a DVD player, VCR or other consumer electronic product perform anywhere near as poorly as the HR20.


You have to take into consideration that the HR20 basically does all of those things and more - much more. Sure, there's no slot for a DVD or VHS Tape (I have to spell this out so no one takes it too literally  ) but most likely you'll be able to get the same movies and shows and have them probably display a better picture/quality.


----------



## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Actually, a lot of companies do have beta programs for their software. Just about every major software company makes beta or RC software available to its members. Some even have their own employees and developers work with the people testing.
> Every major MMO developer opens their games up to public beta test (after closed beta test)...once again at no/low charge.
> Many hardware companies like Nvidia for instance make beta versions of their software available as well.
> Oh, and many of them either don't charge for beta testing or charge a much reduced rate.
> ...


I understand what you're trying to say but all of your examples here are about single components and things. The HR20 is a multi-piece product. It has a video card, a HDD, tuners, modems, ethernet... It's basically a computer. I know my computer has crashed many times over the years and I expect it to crash again someday. I don't believe the HR20 will keep crashing - and recent software shows just that.

I've beta tested many products, games, software for cards and it's really hard to find the similarites. There are some no doubt, but it's really not the same thing.

In the beginning, every component of the HR20 was basically running "beta" software, IMO. They tried to fix things drastically because of the response they got - all the returns and CS calls. They went through a "testing process" as well and finally figured out - get a good stable software release to fall back on and then start sending out the betas or CE's. I remember Earl had a poll on that awhile back, More, quicker NRs or Slower NRs, more CEs. It seems now DIRECTV throws in a "beta" part of the software with ever CE to see how it works, sometimes piece by piece. They beta the phone, then they'll beta the Trickplay, then they'll Beta the Media Share... and so on. It's a wonderful plan but it does take time.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> I understand what you're trying to say but all of your examples here are about single components and things. The HR20 is a multi-piece product. It has a video card, a HDD, tuners, modems, ethernet... It's basically a computer. I know my computer has crashed many times over the years and I expect it to crash again someday. I don't believe the HR20 will keep crashing - and recent software shows just that.
> 
> I've beta tested many products, games, software for cards and it's really hard to find the similarites. There are some no doubt, but it's really not the same thing.
> 
> In the beginning, every component of the HR20 was basically running "beta" software, IMO. They tried to fix things drastically because of the response they got - all the returns and CS calls. They went through a "testing process" as well and finally figured out - get a good stable software release to fall back on and then start sending out the betas or CE's. I remember Earl had a poll on that awhile back, More, quicker NRs or Slower NRs, more CEs. It seems now DIRECTV throws in a "beta" part of the software with ever CE to see how it works, sometimes piece by piece. They beta the phone, then they'll beta the Trickplay, then they'll Beta the Media Share... and so on. It's a wonderful plan but it does take time.


My point was that public beta tests of software, operating systems, etc. are nothing new/revolutionary. We can argue back and forth as to what is a similar device, what's more complex, etc...but why?


----------



## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Ken S said:


> My point was that public beta tests of software, operating systems, etc. are nothing new/revolutionary. We can argue back and forth as to what is a similar device, what's more complex, etc...but why?


That's what I had thought you were saying and I apologize if you were feeling attacked, it wasn't my purpose to argue with you. I started to reply to you and meant it in and "I understand" way but then started off on another subject/thought.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

One quick note on the progress of the HR20:

Take a look at the 0x17e Discussion/Issues Thread. First off, they're combined. Next look at how many pages/posts there are... You could say that they've cut some of the posts down but if they did, I have a feeling it was very few if any.

Search back a bit and see how the _separate_ Threads used to get pounded. 

Doesn't that kinda show that some progress has been made? I think so.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I'll only say that continued harping on how things used to be is useless. All that matters is how it is *now* and what it will be tomorrow. I could care less how it was 6 months ago, heck 12 months ago and I lived thru it all getting one in the first shipment available nationwide.

Learn from the past and move on. That is what DirecTV and the CE community has done.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> I'll only say that continued harping on how things used to be is useless. All that matters is how it is *now* and what it will be tomorrow. I could care less how it was 6 months ago, heck 12 months ago and I lived thru it all getting one in the first shipment available nationwide.
> 
> Learn from the past and move on. That is what DirecTV and the CE community has done.


Bon,

I agree except for one point. You can't completely forget "history" the next time DirecTV releases a new product. Well, you can, but then you get into the "Fool me once..."


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Ken S said:


> Bon,
> 
> I agree except for one point. You can't completely forget "history" the next time DirecTV releases a new product. Well, you can, but then you get into the "Fool me once..."


True. Never forget. But let's not lynch DirecTV on new products they have yet to release, eh?


----------



## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Maybe you can help me with a couple bugs in my Tivo. I can't seem to get the mini guide to work, and for some reason when I go into the List, I can no longer see or hear the program I was watching.


Are you high? Shortcomings in TiVo's user interface don't excuse bugs in the HR20. The CIG bug - which you and other D*nialists claim is not even a bug - prevents autorecord from working. That's about as clear as a bug can be.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

BubbaDude said:


> Are you high? Shortcomings in TiVo's user interface don't excuse bugs in the HR20. The CIG bug - which you and other D*nialists claim is not even a bug - prevents autorecord from working. That's about as clear as a bug can be.


As stated... a hundred times over.
CIR is disabled... plain and simple.

To take it out "TiVo" terms...
Is the fact that the Motorol RAZR, can communicate with a PC to transfer files... As shown on T-Mobile... but Verizon has opted to disable that feature... Is that a bug? or is that a feature that has been disabled?

A BUG... with regards to CIR, is when it is re-enabled... that it still says you have a channel that you don't.... that is a bug.

Does that deactivation of the feature, have a cascade effect to other features... yes...


----------



## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> I'm sorry, bto4wd, but you posted earlier that you are here to "help" ... Can you please remind me again how you are doing that?
> 
> It is by reminding us again and again of how bad things were and not acknowledging how good things are becoming? (But you would have to believe things are getting good, and I don't think you believe that.) You do seem to like to relive the past.
> 
> ...


Very well said ... agree 100%.

I was a huge TiVo fan.

Honestly, now just love the HR20.

Have 3 HR20's (all w/750GB eSATA) ... mine, wife/kids, kids ... not a peep ... not a single issue ... and all now love the FFW auto-correction just introduced ... picture-in-guide and interactive channels for MLB EI are now critical ... would never switch ... and looking forward to NFL ST interactive.

Not a fan-boy, just realistic and content ... and 4 weeks away from massive HD ... probably a few weeks away from VOD ... life is good ... don't much care about the past, especially the distant past.


----------



## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As stated... a hundred times over.
> CIR is disabled... plain and simple.
> 
> To take it out "TiVo" terms...
> Is the fact that the Motorol RAZR, can communicate with a PC to transfer files... As shown on T-Mobile... but Verizon has opted to disable that feature... Is that a bug? or is that a feature that has been disabled?


BS. CIG prevents autorecord from working, and autorecord is a key feature of any DVR. You may as well say "recording is disabled."



> A BUG... with regards to CIR, is when it is re-enabled... that it still says you have a channel that you don't.... that is a bug.


It says I get channels I don't get today, so why is that not a bug? Nowhere on the screen does it say: "This feature disabled," it simply makes a false claim.



> Does that deactivation of the feature, have a cascade effect to other features... yes...


And that cascade is what we software engineers call a "bug."

What's your next argument, "a bug ... is an insect ... and there are no insects ... in the HR20?" Jeez Louise, I've never seen such denial.


----------



## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

Sixto said:


> Very well said ... agree 100%.
> 
> I was a huge TiVo fan.
> 
> ...


*AMEN BROTHER!!!*
:lol:


----------



## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

You know what? I've had my box going on 10 months. Not once have I even cared to try autorecord. Why not? I don't need to. I search the Guide for what I want to watch, if it's on a channel I get I set a recording or a Series Link. Big deal.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

BubbaDude,

Regardless of which terminology you use (bug or "lack of feature"), the HR20 fully supports the CIR/CIG functionality. In addition, I expect autorecord to work exactly as advertised based on this CIR/CIG functionality.

The problem, and why you are calling it a bug, is that there is a portion of the data stream that needs some tweaking to essentially "turn it on" Without this tweaking, the HR20 will continue to perform incorrectly. Remember, the changes need to be made in the data stream and NOT in the HR20 firmware to make this work.

OK, you may ask "why hasn't this been done yet?" Fair enough. From my understanding, there are still a small number of receiver types that go totally FUBAR when CIR/CIG is turned on in the data stream. These receivers are not called "HR20" but are some other receiver in the DIRECTV line of receivers. Which ones? I don't know. I'm sure DIRECTV never intended for this to be a problem for so long, but there are apparently things still left to be worked out.

If you want to call it a bug, then please do .. call it a bug. However, realize that it is a "system" bug and not specifically an HR20 bug. This problem results in a broken feature, yes, but the feature is only broken because there is a piece missing from the bigger picture.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As stated... a hundred times over.
> CIR is disabled... plain and simple.
> 
> To take it out "TiVo" terms...
> ...


Earl is this also the reason that the titles of adult content are visible in searches even though Parental Controls are set otherwise? Then, you're right it's not a bug, it's a purposeful act that's pretty uncaring and unethical.

At the very least they could put out a warning and/or a workaround. If it's related to something else...then it just needs to be fixed asap.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ken S said:


> Earl is this also the reason that the titles of adult content are visible in searches even though Parental Controls are set otherwise? Then, you're right it's not a bug, it's a purposeful act that's pretty uncaring and unethical.
> 
> At the very least they could put out a warning and/or a workaround. If it's related to something else...then it just needs to be fixed asap.


No, because most of those will still search and hit, as they are PPV channels.
As you do "receive" those PPV's.

What they should include is the feature that is in the R15...
Where you can set an option, and is as if the adult channels don't exist at all in the system. (you can't even tune them in if you wanted to)


----------



## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, because most of those will still search and hit, as they are PPV channels.
> As you do "receive" those PPV's.
> 
> What they should include is the feature that is in the R15...
> Where you can set an option, and is as if the adult channels don't exist at all in the system. (you can't even tune them in if you wanted to)


Now there is a feature worth putting into the wish list...

What was this thread about?...


----------



## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What they should include is the feature that is in the R15...
> Where you can set an option, and is as if the adult channels don't exist at all in the system. (you can't even tune them in if you wanted to)


Or you could just move here to Tennessee . . . same thing.


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## puffnstuff (Sep 2, 2006)

If the reason that CIR is disabled is because of certain boxes going FUBAR or whatever else , what did D* do swap those out ? If so I guess thats why it is taking so long . I just can't wait !


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

puffnstuff said:


> If the reason that CIR is disabled is because of certain boxes going FUBAR or whatever else , what did D* do swap those out ? If so I guess thats why it is taking so long . I just can't wait !


So swap out... software upgrade.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

brott said:


> ...Without this tweaking, the HR20 will continue to perform incorrectly. Remember, the changes need to be made in the data stream and NOT in the HR20 firmware to make this work.


Where I live, systems that "perform incorrectly" are said to have bugs in them. Now you can hem and haw all you want, but the fact remains that the system does not perform correctly. And the fact also remains that TiVo takes the very same data stream and performs correctly.

That's about as transparent as a bug can be: TiVo autorecord works, HR20 autorecord doesn't work, data stream is the same. Clear as a bell.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

puffnstuff said:


> If the reason that CIR is disabled is because of certain boxes going FUBAR or whatever else , what did D* do swap those out ? If so I guess thats why it is taking so long . I just can't wait !


My tin foil hat says that the "bad" boxes that choke on the new data stream will be fixed with a software upgrade in early 2008. :hurah:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Where I live, systems that "perform incorrectly" are said to have bugs in them. Now you can hem and haw all you want, but the fact remains that the system does not perform correctly. And the fact also remains that TiVo takes the very same data stream and performs correctly.
> 
> That's about as transparent as a bug can be: TiVo autorecord works, HR20 autorecord doesn't work, data stream is the same. Clear as a bell.


Let me repeat the last paragraph since you apparently missed that part of my comment.

If you want to call it a bug, then please do .. call it a bug. However, realize that it is a "system" bug and not specifically an HR20 bug. This problem results in a broken feature, yes, but the feature is only broken because there is a piece missing from the bigger picture.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> My tin foil hat says that the "bad" boxes that choke on the new data stream will be fixed with a software upgrade in early 2008. :hurah:


Geez, I hope so. I'm so tired of having those TiVo boxes hold the HR20 back.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

brott said:


> If you want to call it a bug, then please do .. call it a bug. However, realize that it is a "system" bug and not specifically an HR20 bug. This problem results in a broken feature, yes, but the feature is only broken because there is a piece missing from the bigger picture.


Tivo takes the same data stream and manages to do autorecord and CIR just fine. It's a bug in the HR20 that prevents it from being as functional as the Tivo with THE SAME DATA STREAM.

But whatever, I don't care whether you want to call it a system bug or an HR20 bug and I don't know why you care.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

BubbaDude said:


> Tivo takes the same data stream and manages to do autorecord and CIR just fine. It's a bug in the HR20 that prevents it from being as functional as the Tivo with THE SAME DATA STREAM.
> 
> But whatever, I don't care whether you want to call it a system bug or an HR20 bug and I don't know why you care.


Only if you maintain the list manually. TiVo doesn't do it automatically...

And if fact.. TiVo will error, if the user doesn't continue to maintain that list.
So is that a feature? Or a bug?


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Only if you maintain the list manually. TiVo doesn't do it automatically...
> 
> And if fact.. TiVo will error, if the user doesn't continue to maintain that list.
> So is that a feature? Or a bug?


Does Tivo also have a CIG bug? Theoretically yes, but in practice, no.

The TiVo method - giving control the user - is clearly preferable to the HR20's totally broken Big Brother-managed system. Every day my Tivo successfully records baseball games that the HR20 misses.

This is reality.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Only if you maintain the list manually. TiVo doesn't do it automatically...
> 
> And if fact.. TiVo will error, if the user doesn't continue to maintain that list.
> So is that a feature? Or a bug?


I would say that the ability to maintain your own CIR list on the Tivos is a feature. A feature on a unit that's what 4-5 years old? A feature that the DVR+ developers either didn't know about, didn't consider or made a conscious decision to leave out of the R15 and HR20.

Bottom line is that Tivos give you the option.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Tivo takes the same data stream and manages to do autorecord and CIR just fine. It's a bug in the HR20 that prevents it from being as functional as the Tivo with THE SAME DATA STREAM.
> 
> But whatever, I don't care whether you want to call it a system bug or an HR20 bug and I don't know why you care.


Just trying to convey accurate information. It's unfortunate that you are having these problems.


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Two DirecTV receivers. One DirecTV programming feed. One DirecTV guide data stream. 

One set of similar instructions input into the places that are supposed to be 'functionally equivalent' to each other.

One DirecTV receiver records the programs, one DirecTV receiver does not.


Someone tell me why this isn't a DirecTV problem again?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Meklos said:


> Two DirecTV receivers. One DirecTV programming feed. One DirecTV guide data stream.
> 
> One set of similar instructions input into the places that are supposed to be 'functionally equivalent' to each other.
> 
> ...


You are missing a piece in your first line:
*One system has a manual list to denote what channels you have*
*Another will processes it based on your subscription package*

No one ever said it wasn't DirecTV's problem... 
Just a discussion on what defines a "Bug" or a disabled feature.

At the end of the day... the feature doesn't work... (be it disabled, or a bug)and that is all that is improtant.

And it needs to be corrected: Be it "fixed" or re-enabled...

So it stops affecting, other features of the system: Auto-Record.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> *One system has a manual list to denote what channels you have*
> *Another will processes it based on your subscription package*


One system has a manual list, and the other system has (today) a wrong list with no way to make corrections.

That's a big difference, and I would submit that if and when DirecTV ever gets around to processing the list based on my subscription, it will still be necessary for the user to have the ability to edit it manually.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> You are missing a piece in your first line:
> *One system has a manual list to denote what channels you have*
> *Another will processes it based on your subscription package*
> 
> ...


A seemingly unending discussion.



Earl Bonovich said:


> At the end of the day... the feature doesn't work... (be it disabled, or a bug)and that is all that is improtant.


Agreed.



Earl Bonovich said:


> And it needs to be corrected: Be it "fixed" or re-enabled...


Double Agreed.



Earl Bonovich said:


> So it stops affecting, other features of the system: Auto-Record.


Multi-Agreed! :grin:

How about we simply all agree we want it fixed?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

BubbaDude said:


> That's a big difference, and I would submit that if and when DirecTV ever gets around to processing the list based on my subscription, it will still be necessary for the user to have the ability to edit it manually.


That is very true. And we had a big discussion about this a couple months ago that we still need either the ability to edit the CIR list or allow searches off a favorite list. Once CIR is working I plan to bring that thread back to life.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Anyway. Nice article. Looks like this thread has been reduced to Dodo bird status despite 3 guys taking time out of their busy lives to volunteer to write something for the benefit of forum members...but whatever. CIR doesn't work properly yet and I guess that's all that matters......


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Thanks Canis Lupus. This thread has certainly taken on an interesting quality. I've had fun with the HR20 over the past year and look forward to having just as much fun over the next year as well.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

brott said:


> This thread has certainly taken on an interesting quality.


Once certain people drop by, every thread gets that same "interesting" quality.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

brott said:


> Thanks Canis Lupus. This thread has certainly taken on an interesting quality. I've had fun with the HR20 over the past year and look forward to having just as much fun over the next year as well.


I think this is where we differ. I'd prefer the HR20 to be no fun at all, I'd like it to be totally boring and predictable. It's way too exciting to turn on the TV and go see just what exciting and wonderful thing the HR20 decided to do to me.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> I think this is where we differ. I'd prefer the HR20 to be no fun at all, I'd like it to be totally boring and predictable. It's way too exciting to turn on the TV and go see just what exciting and wonderful thing the HR20 decided to do to me.


I'm sorry you've had another experience, but my HR-20 is "totally boring and predictable". Again - not what this thread was about in the first place.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

brott said:


> Thanks Canis Lupus. This thread has certainly taken on an interesting quality. I've had fun with the HR20 over the past year and look forward to having just as much fun over the next year as well.


As I've stated before, all this thread has become is a very true representation of the 1st year of the HR20.


----------



## NorfolkBruh (Jun 9, 2007)

bto4wd said:


> A seemingly unending discussion. _YADDA YADDA YADDA_
> *
> How about we simply all agree we want it fixed?*


How about we all simply agree we want it _operational?_

"Operational" in THIS instance is defined as: Working as it was defined to work regardless if it's a "bug (a problem in software implementation),"  a "deactivated function," :nono: and/or any other thing that causes it to NOT work as previously advertised? 

:lol: And again.... great job on the history! :lol:​


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> As I've stated before, all this thread has become is a very true representation of the 1st year of the HR20.


for you.....


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Canis Lupus said:


> for you.....


And for me, but not for you. Such is life.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Such is life.


On that there is no disagreement.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

This thread might just not be complete without a reference to a thread I ran across a while back. Some of you old timers no doubt have seen it, but for the young pups take a look at another view of history.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=58706

Granted, this was before the HR20 was birth-ed.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> This thread might just not be complete without a reference to a thread I ran across a while back.


Your link references a satire to an (at the time) hypothetical HR20 and the demise of TiVo. It certainly has nothing to do with the article. The reference has only helped to turn this thread into more of a turkey than it had already become.

You earlier stated .. "I don't want to get into an argument and take this thread to a place it doesn't need to go." Congratulations on doing yourself a disservice as I believe that you have done exactly what you set out not to do.


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

brott said:


> You earlier stated .. "I don't want to get into an argument and take this thread to a place it doesn't need to go." Congratulations on doing yourself a disservice as I believe that you have done exactly what you set out not to do.


You're assuming that he actually didn't want any HR20 bashing in the thread.


----------



## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> This thread might just not be complete without a reference to a thread I ran across a while back. Some of you old timers no doubt have seen it, but for the young pups take a look at another view of history.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=58706
> 
> Granted, this was before the HR20 was birth-ed.


Hehe - yes I remember that thread as one of many I read before deciding to pull the trigger anyway and buy the box.

Back then, people like litzdog, Earl and so many others gave me guidance and help to set up my new system myself, and not have to worry about D* CSRs giving me some company line.

It's through their grassroots efforts, along with the 3 gents who started this thread and so many other members, that have helped make it better for those who've had problems or concerns.

To miss that point is to miss the point of this thread and DBStalk in general.

No one's denying problems, and people are helping out where and when they can.

It's just that there are plenty of other threads where that can happen, and this thread should not be one of them.


----------



## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Man, that "satire" is pretty accurate. For example:



> Darth Pontual: "Yes my master, I shall create bugs, that way when we release fixes. The people's allegiance will be reinforced
> 
> Emperor Chase: "Exactly..if you build it right, you only make them happy once&#8230;.if you update it 20 times, they may be unhappy with the original, but you will make them happy 20 times with upgrades. We will appear to be proactive, progressive, responsive..etc... They will become addicted to the updates, craving the fix, chasing the high but never cursing the addiction or the cure that never will come. Man will put up with anything as long as he has a reason to hope. But padawan, NEVER admit the bugs exist."
> 
> ...


Dude, that's right on.


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Dude, that's right on.


Yes, I'm sure that was DirecTV's plan all along. :nono2:


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> As I've stated before, all this thread has become is a very true representation of the 1st year of the HR20.


If I recall, this Thread started with some very nice comments about the article and only started to become the way it has from your opinions.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Man, that "satire" is pretty accurate. For example:
> 
> Dude, that's right on.


OK well maybe you can summon Luke Skywalker through your holographic R2-D2 message to help fix your box.

In the meantime, there are real world people on this forum who are trying to make your experience better and are willing to help.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

So many questions, so much time needed to answer them, but look! Who's there answering them, giving time to posters' questions, and helping them.

Gee whiz.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=94244


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Canis Lupus said:


> OK well maybe you can summon Luke Skywalker through your holographic R2-D2 message to help fix your box.
> 
> In the meantime, there are real world people on this forum who are trying to make your experience better and are willing to help.


Cool, I'm happy to have somebody fix the software that runs in the HR20 DirecTV has leased me. I'd do it myself if I had the source code, but alas, I don't.

Who can fix my "bad experience" with CIG and autorecord?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Man, that "satire" is pretty accurate.


The satire is a good read .. that was not my point.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> Cool, I'm happy to have somebody fix the software that runs in the HR20 DirecTV has leased me. I'd do it myself if I had the source code, but alas, I don't.
> 
> Who can fix my "bad experience" with CIG and autorecord?


You can. Tell D* you're not satisfied with the software you've been provided, and that your user experience has been bad.

Tell them you want to return the box for a full refund and to cancel your service.

If I was in your position, and my experience was bad, I would have a decision to make:

Deal with it or Return it.

Start another thread here with your issues, or contact D* directly with them.

If you start a thread here, guess what? Real world people will likely respond affirming your issues or casting them aside as not important enough to them. Again: User experience.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

brott said:


> The satire is a good read .. that was not my point.


You claimed that the satire had nothing to do with this topic, but it clearly does: "if you update it 20 times, they may be unhappy with the original, but you will make them happy 20 times with upgrades. We will appear to be proactive, progressive, responsive..etc..."

That's exactly what the article was about, praising DTV for listening to DBSTalk and eventually fixing some of the bugs.

I know you don't see the bugs as bugs, but we've already been over that and there's no need to beat a dead bug.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> "if you update it 20 times, they may be unhappy with the original, but you will make them happy 20 times with upgrades. We will appear to be proactive, progressive, responsive..etc..."


This has been my experience not in appearance, but in reality. Sorry yours has not.


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## BubbaDude (May 22, 2007)

Canis Lupus said:


> You can. Tell D* you're not satisfied with the software you've been provided, and that your user experience has been bad.
> 
> Tell them you want to return the box for a full refund and to cancel your service.
> 
> ...


My goodness, I had no idea that I'm not entitled to use the HR20 unless I think it's perfect. Can you point me to the fine print in the contract that says that?

The fact is that I've told DTV that I'm not happy with the HR20, in several different ways at several different times. And as I've said to other DTV boosters here, the HR20 isn't costing me anything at the moment, so I see no reason not to keep it around until it's fixed or they send me a bill. (I got is as a $20 replacement for a sick SD TiVo, and the monthly fee was waived for a year.)

If I were one of the poor saps who paid $300 for the privilege of leasing it for a fee, I think I probably would send it back and switch to cable. But I'm not, so DTV has some time to fix it before they lose me as a customer. Frankly, Scarlett, the thing that keeps me with DTV right now is my DirecTivo, which continues to work quite reliably.

Thanks for your suggestions, however, they were first-rate and very helpful.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

OK well, I'm certainly not a "booster", I'm a user.

And if you got a replacement for a sick TiVo unit through a good deal, good for you.

And the fact that you have a "perfectly reliable TiVo" which is the reason to stay with them (despite the fact that apparently you had a sick TiVo), [and btw I have a perfectly reliable TiVo as well except for screwups by techs that I had to fix myself], then all the better for you.

And best of all, you're not paying for it. So to keep slamming in the same thread that is more about the people involved in trying to make improvements to your "free HR-20" kinda seems pointless.

If I'm Scarlett, you're more like a Scarlett Letter.

I'm done in this thread. My apologies to the OPs for stringing it out.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

BubbaDude said:


> You claimed that the satire had nothing to do with this topic, but it clearly does: "if you update it 20 times, they may be unhappy with the original, but you will make them happy 20 times with upgrades. We will appear to be proactive, progressive, responsive..etc..."
> 
> That's exactly what the article was about, praising DTV for listening to DBSTalk and eventually fixing some of the bugs.
> 
> I know you don't see the bugs as bugs, but we've already been over that and there's no need to beat a dead bug.


Maybe we should hook up at one of the local watering holes. I'm sure our conversation will be more productive.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Per the request of many people... this thread is now closed.
And de-stuck...

If you want to continue the many different discussion that were partaken in this thread... please start a new one, in the appropriate forum.


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