# Combine AT9 Dish w/ Existing SatC Dish? Trees!



## litzdog911

*Jump to post #164 to see a summary of proven solutions for using multiple dishes to "see" all 5 main satellite locations .....*http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1079192&postcount=164

A few of us need multiple dishes to see the various DirecTV satellites through trees. Is there a way to combine an AT9 dish with existing dishes?

http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog911/Dsc00577_small.jpg

In my case I can probably see all of the satellites, except the 110-deg SatC satellite, from one location on my house. So I'm hoping there's a way to combine my current SatC dish with a new AT9 dish. Thanks guys!


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## bobnielsen

litzdog911 said:


> A few of us need multiple dishes to see the various DirecTV satellites through trees. Is there a way to combine an AT9 dish with existing dishes?
> 
> http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog911/Dsc00577_small.jpg
> 
> In my case I can probably see all of the satellites, except the 110-deg SatC satellite, from one location on my house. So I'm hoping there's a way to combine my current SatC dish with a new AT9 dish. Thanks guys!


It's probably doable, given that the 110 LNB on the AT-9 has a cable connection to the main (99/101/103) LNB/multiswitch assembly. That uses a thin cable with a small connector (much smaller than F), so if adapters are available you should be able to connect it there (the same would apply for 119). I don't recognize the connector type. so I don't know what sort of adapter would be needed or if they are even available.


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## litzdog911

bobnielsen said:


> It's probably doable, given that the 110 LNB on the AT-9 has a cable connection to the main (99/101/103) LNB/multiswitch assembly. That uses a thin cable with a small connector (much smaller than F), so if adapters are available you should be able to connect it there (the same would apply for 119). I don't recognize the connector type. so I don't know what sort of adapter would be needed or if they are even available.


That's encouraging! Two more questions ....

1. Anyone know where I can find closeup photos of that connector?

2. Is the AT9's SatC LNB just like the Phase III LNB? That is, do I still need to use my "SatC combiner"?

Thanks!


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## litzdog911

Looking at the photos and AT9 installation manual at SolidSignal's web site, it looks like the combo 110/119 LNBs are attached to the main LNB assembly with two RG6 coax cables.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AT59&xzoom=Large-1#xview
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AT9_install_manual.pdf

Question: Are these two coax cables the same signals that I would have with my current 119-deg dish plus 110-deg/combiner dish? The 110-deg LNB is currently combined into one side of the dual output 119-deg LNB, so I'm hoping it's those same two signals.

That would be great, because I could then easily combine my existing 110-deg and 119-deg dishes to the new AT9, with the AT9 just receiving the 99/101/103-deg satellites.

I'm hoping somebody knows for sure! Thanks!


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## RobertE

The connectons between the LNBs vary between manufactuer. Calamp & Andrew use the F connector while the Winstron uses some smaller push on type.


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## litzdog911

RobertE said:


> The connectons between the LNBs vary between manufactuer. Calamp & Andrew use the F connector while the Winstron uses some smaller push on type.


Thanks, Robert. 
Do you know if I can connect my existing 110-deg dish plus 119-deg dish (with the SatC combiner) to the AT9's 99/101/103-deg LNB assembly?

I'll create a diagram and post it here.


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## litzdog911

This is what I'm hoping will work to combine my existing 110-deg SatC and 119-deg SatB dishes with a new AT9 dish ....

http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog911/AT9 Dish Combo 1.jpg
http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog911/AT9 Dish Combo 2.jpg


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## bobnielsen

litzdog911 said:
 

> This is what I'm hoping will work to combine my existing 110-deg SatC and 119-deg SatB dishes with a new AT9 dish ....
> 
> http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog911/AT9 Dish Combo 1.jpg
> http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog911/AT9 Dish Combo 2.jpg


Since the Sat B and Sat C inputs on the AT9 are separate you won't need to use a Sat C combiner (it's inside the main assembly). You won't need to mount the arm used for the B/C LNBs.

The connectors *may* be SMB type--I took a quick look at the cable before the installer put mine up, although they may be somewhat smaller version. The cable is much thinnerr than RG-6.

Thinking about that a bit more, the Sat-C combiner must be in the side-arm assembly, so one would be needed. Now if only they published some technical information....


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## RobertE

As Bob mentioned the 110/119 inputs are seperate. At least for the Calamp model, port 1 is the 119 input.


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## litzdog911

bobnielsen said:


> Since the Sat B and Sat C inputs on the AT9 are separate you won't need to use a Sat C combiner (it's inside the main assembly). You won't need to mount the arm used for the B/C LNBs.
> 
> The connectors *may* be SMB type--I took a quick look at the cable before the installer put mine up, although they may be somewhat smaller version. The cable is much thinnerr than RG-6.


Thanks, Bob!

If the SatB and SatC inputs are separate, then shouldn't there be 3 cables connections between the AT9's 110/119-LNB assembly and the 99/101/103-LNB assembly -- One coax for the SatC single output LNB and two cables for the SatB dual output LNB?

Also, do I use the special SatC LNB that's currently installed on my 110-deg dish, or swap it for a regular LNB?

Thanks again! At least it's sounding like this is do-able!


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## litzdog911

RobertE said:


> As Bob mentioned the 110/119 inputs are seperate. At least for the Calamp model, port 1 is the 119 input.


Thanks, Robert!

Do you know if the connector is a standard coax F-connector, or something different?

Also, shouldn't there be two coax connections for the 119-deg LNB since it's a dual output LNB?


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## litzdog911

Could someone post a close-up photo of the coax cable connections between the AT9's two LNB assemblies? I'm hoping for a better photo than the one I posted above where I can actually see what type of coax cable/connectors is used between these two LNB assemblies ....

http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog91...0Combo 2.jpg


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## bobnielsen

litzdog911 said:


> Thanks, Bob!
> 
> If the SatB and SatC inputs are separate, then shouldn't there be 3 cables connections between the AT9's 110/119-LNB assembly and the 99/101/103-LNB assembly -- One coax for the SatC single output LNB and two cables for the SatB dual output LNB?
> 
> Also, do I use the special SatC LNB that's currently installed on my 110-deg dish, or swap it for a regular LNB?
> 
> Thanks again! At least it's sounding like this is do-able!


Yes, that sounds more like it. I think the current Sat C LNB and combiner should work.


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## w6fxj

litzdog911 said:


> Could someone post a close-up photo of the coax cable connections between the AT9's two LNB assemblies? I'm hoping for a better photo than the one I posted above where I can actually see what type of coax cable/connectors is used between these two LNB assemblies ....
> 
> http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog91...0Combo 2.jpg


Jim - Here is my observations of my WNC 5-LNB dish:

1. The connectors between the main LNB and the outboard LNB are the same small push on RF connectors used on cell phones, XM radios, Garmin GPS Street Pilot units, for external antennae. I should point out that the jacks on the central LNB housing are male rather than female. The plugs on the outrigger LNB cables are female. Where as cell phones and GPS units have male on the cable and female on the equipment jack. 

2. When I disconnect Port 1 (lower port) test channel 492 fails indicating Port 1 is carrying the Sat B Odd transponders.

3. When I disconnect Port 2 (upper port) test channels 493 and 494 fail, indicating that Sat B Even and Sat C transponders are carried on Port 2.

4. If I were a betting man, I think the outrigger LNB's work the very same way as the Sar B and Sat C LNB's work on the 3-LNB dishes. So, you should be able to connect your 110 and 119 dishes using the old Sat C kit combiner and hook up the sole Sat B LNB line (odd) to Port 1, and the output of the Sat B-Sat C combiner to Port 2.

5. Just a guess, but since DirecTV will probably be reducing their use of the 110 and 119 satellites for main stream subscribers, the 5-LNB dish will eventually be sold minus the outrigger 110/119 LNB assy for those who do not need it.

I have taken close-up digital photos and can post them if you wish.


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## w6fxj

Jim

Here are two photos of my 5-LNB dish 110° and 119° LNB's:


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## bobnielsen

Bill Wood said:


> Jim - Here is my observations of my WNC 5-LNB dish:
> 
> 1. The connectors between the main LNB and the outboard LNB are the same small push on RF connectors used on cell phones, XM radios, Garmin GPS Street Pilot units, for external antennae.
> 
> 2. When I disconnect Port 1 (lower port) test channel 492 fails indicating Port 2 is carrying the Sat B Odd transponders.
> 
> 3. When I disconnect Port 2 (upper port) test channels 493 and 494 fail, indicating that Sat B Even and Sat C transponders are carrying Sat B Even and Sat C transponders.
> 
> 4. If I were a betting man, I think the outrigger LNB's work the very same way as the Sar B and Sat C LNB's work on the 3-LNB dishes. So, you should be able to connect your 110 and 119 dishes using the old Sat C kit combiner and hook up the sole Sat B LNB line (odd) to Port 1, and the output of the Sat B-Sat C combiner to Port 2.
> 
> 5. Just a guess, but since DirecTV will probably be reducing their use of the 110 and 119 satellites for main stream subscribers, the 5-LNB dish will eventually be sold minus the outrigger 110/119 LNB assy for those who do not need it.
> 
> I have taken close-up digital photos and can post them if you wish.


1) I knew I*had seen connectors like that, but didn't remember where. It shouldn't be too hard to rig up cables using those with an F on the other end and there may even be adapters available already.

5) I always wondered why DirecTV didn't try to arrange a swap of their few 110 channels with Dish Network for an equal number of 119 spots. It would have simplified things quite a bit. I suspect you may be on to something, however, since the Ka sats to be launched in 2007 should have plenty of capacity and they'll probably switch all the HD to MPEG4 (sooner than some people would like).


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## litzdog911

Thanks Bill and Bob! Bill, those photos and your tests really help! Pretty much confirms that I should be able to connect my existing SatB and SatC dishes to the those two ports as follows ....

* Port 1 connected to SatB (119-deg) dish LNB output #1 (odd transponders)
* Port 2 connected to the combined SatC (110-deg) plus SatB LNB output #2 (even transponders)

Bill: 
You said that "2. When I disconnect Port 1 (lower port) test channel 492 fails indicating Port 2 is carrying the Sat B Odd transponders." Did you mean to say that "*Port 1* is carrying the SatB Odd transponders?"


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## w6fxj

litzdog911 said:


> Bill:
> You said that "2. When I disconnect Port 1 (lower port) test channel 492 fails indicating Port 2 is carrying the Sat B Odd transponders." Did you mean to say that "*Port 1* is carrying the SatB Odd transponders?"


Yes, indeed!


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## litzdog911

Thanks to the information from Bill, Bob, and Robert, I think here's how my SatC and SatB dishes should connect to the AT9 main LNB assembly's two ports ....


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## w6fxj

Edited my original message to add a clarification about the connectors.


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## w6fxj

Jim

Additional information about the connectors used on the WNC 5-LNB dish. These are female MCX connectors and are available in many different configurations. They come in both 50 and 75 ohm versions. None will accept RG6 cable. I could not find MCX female to F female adapters at all. Most MCX plugs are designed to work with small coax cables similar to RG-179. You could cut off the cables on the 110/119 LNB's and attach a type F-female jack to the cut ends. Do a search for MCX connectors and you will see what is available.


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## litzdog911

Bill Wood said:


> Jim
> 
> Additional information about the connectors used on the WNC 5-LNB dish. These are female MCX connectors and are available in many different configurations. They come in both 50 and 75 ohm versions. None will accept RG6 cable. I could not find MCX female to F female adapters at all. Most MCX plugs are designed to work with small coax cables similar to RG-179. You could cut off the cables on the 110/119 LNB's and attach a type F-female jack to the cut ends. Do a search for MCX connectors and you will see what is available.


Thanks again, Bill! I guess some versions of the AT9 dish use F-connectors, so maybe I'll get lucky 
Otherwise, your idea to cut the cables from the AT9's 110/119 LNB assembly and use them as an adapter for my existing RG6 cables seems reasonable. I'll need to properly waterproof, of course. I'll do some more digging to see if I can rig up some sort of adapter.


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## gregftlaud

Litzdog, 

What kind of ota antenna is that in the picture you posted with your dishes in it?

Greg


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## litzdog911

gregftlaud said:


> Litzdog,
> 
> What kind of ota antenna is that in the picture you posted with your dishes in it?
> 
> Greg


That's a Winegard SquareShooter UHF antenna.


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## vikingguy

I will probably have to do the same thing. I was hoping it would be easy like it is now with 3 seperate dishes. I will keep up on this and wish you luck for us with major tree problems.


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## litzdog911

vikingguy said:


> I will probably have to do the same thing. I was hoping it would be easy like it is now with 3 seperate dishes. I will keep up on this and wish you luck for us with major tree problems.


I'll keep this thread updated as I move ahead with the AT9 installation. So far it's looking like I should be able to combine my existing 110/SatC and 119/SatB dishes with the new AT9. With Bill Wood's help I even found an adapter for the AT9's MCX connectors to connect my existing dishes using a standard TypeF coax connector ....

http://www.whitesandsengineering.com/preview.aspx?image=MCXFFF.jpg


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## w6fxj

Jim - Here are more detailed photographs of the MCX male jacks on the side of the centeral LNB assembly. The width of the recess in the housing is 0.509 inch. The jacks are a little closer to the dish surface as can be seen here. If the adapter you get is like the link photo, there should be no problem fitting it in place. You may want to support the RG6 cables to prevent them from pulling out. If you leave the outrigger in place maybe a black tiewrap or two will hold things.


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## bobnielsen

litzdog911 said:


> I'll keep this thread updated as I move ahead with the AT9 installation. So far it's looking like I should be able to combine my existing 110/SatC and 119/SatB dishes with the new AT9. With Bill Wood's help I even found an adapter for the AT9's MCX connectors to connect my existing dishes using a standard TypeF coax connector ....
> 
> http://www.whitesandsengineering.com/preview.aspx?image=MCXFFF.jpg


See also:

<http://www.atxnetworks.com/pdf/MaxII_Access.pdf#search=%22mcx%20adapter%22>

They have a cable with male MCX on one end which may be easier to fit onto the AT9.


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## litzdog911

bobnielsen said:


> See also:
> 
> <http://www.atxnetworks.com/pdf/MaxII_Access.pdf#search=%22mcx%20adapter%22>
> 
> They have a cable with male MCX on one end which may be easier to fit onto the AT9.


Thanks for the link! I see this company also has a Female MCX to Female TypeF adapter. The cable they provide with the male MCX connector would be the wrong sex because the AT9 LNB assembly has male MCX connectors.

The link I provided to the White Sands Engineering site above also has this Female MCX to Female TypeF adapter for $7.00 each. I ordered some, so hopefully they'll work.


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## litzdog911

Bill Wood said:


> Jim - Here are more detailed photographs of the MCX male jacks on the side of the centeral LNB assembly. The width of the recess in the housing is 0.509 inch. The jacks are a little closer to the dish surface as can be seen here. If the adapter you get is like the link photo, there should be no problem fitting it in place. You may want to support the RG6 cables to prevent them from pulling out. If you leave the outrigger in place maybe a black tiewrap or two will hold things.


Thanks Bill!
Can you verify that those are indeed male MCX connectors on the LNB assembly? It's a bit hard to tell from those photos, but I don't notice the "cut edges" on the connectors like shown in these photos of the MCX male connector ("cut edges") and female connector ("smooth edge") ....

Bill, if it's not too much bother it would be great to have a closeup photo of your cable dongle connector (MCX female?) as well. Thanks!


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## w6fxj

Jim

Here is a close up of the female connector on the cable. The WNC male receptical has a straight barrel rather than a slight serrated lip on the end of the MCX male outer shell. I will try to contact WNC to see what they speced here. MCX conforms to European CECC 22220 spec. The diameter of the male outer shell is 0.133 or 3.3 mm, which is the MCX spec diameter.

Bill


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## bobnielsen

litzdog911 said:


> Thanks for the link! I see this company also has a Female MCX to Female TypeF adapter. The cable they provide with the male MCX connector would be the wrong sex because the AT9 LNB assembly has male MCX connectors.
> 
> The link I provided to the White Sands Engineering site above also has this Female MCX to Female TypeF adapter for $7.00 each. I ordered some, so hopefully they'll work.


I was thinking they could be used in conjunction with the cables supplied with the AT-9.

At that price, it sounds like the way to go. If it works, they may find a lot of new business.


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## litzdog911

Bill Wood said:


> Jim
> 
> Here is a close up of the female connector on the cable. The WNC male receptical has a straight barrel rather than a slight serrated lip on the end of the MCX male outer shell. I will try to contact WNC to see what they speced here. MCX conforms to European CECC 22220 spec. The diameter of the male outer shell is 0.133 or 3.3 mm, which is the MCX spec diameter.
> 
> Bill


Thanks, Bill!
So is it an MCX connector or something else? Your MCX female connector photo looks different from the MCX female connectors that I ordered. Of course, yours has a rubber jacket on the outside. Thanks for helping me solve this!


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## w6fxj

litzdog911 said:


> Thanks, Bill!
> So is it an MCX connector or something else? Your MCX female connector photo looks different from the MCX female connectors that I ordered. Of course, yours has a rubber jacket on the outside. Thanks for helping me solve this!


Jim

While the size of both the male and female sides of the connector appear to be identical to MCX, the outer shell on the WNC female is serrated and squeezes down on the straight outer shell of the WNC male connector. So the gripping part is on the WNC female plug while the MCX male connector has a serrated expanding barrel. Then the MCX female has a straight inner sleeve that mates with the serrated MCX male jack.

The bottom line? An MCX female may not fit tightly over the WNC male jack on the central LNB housing. I say may not, rather than will not, because there may be a tight enough fit. You will not know until you try it.

I am trying to get a hold of someone at WNC to see if they know why the connector is so similar to MCX but reverses the gripping action from male to the female side. It may be a different connector classification or just a way to get around paying royalties to the MCX inventor.

Bill


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## litzdog911

I really appreciate your help, Bill. Perhaps your contact at WNC might know where they source those pigtails. I could easily adapt one with a Female TypeF connector on the end, rather than cutting off the existing AT9 pigtails.

When I get the adapters that I ordered from White Sands Engineering, perhaps I could send one to you to try out on your AT9 dish. I don't know anyone in my area that has an AT9 yet.

Thanks again!



Bill Wood said:


> Jim
> 
> While the size of both the male and female sides of the connector appear to be identical to MCX, the outer shell on the WNC female is serrated and squeezes down on the straight outer shell of the WNC male connector. So the gripping part is on the WNC female plug while the MCX male connector has a serrated expanding barrel. Then the MCX female has a straight inner sleeve that mates with the serrated MCX male jack.
> 
> The bottom line? An MCX female may not fit tightly over the WNC male jack on the central LNB housing. I say may not, rather than will not, because there may be a tight enough fit. You will not know until you try it.
> 
> I am trying to get a hold of someone at WNC to see if they know why the connector is so similar to MCX but reverses the gripping action from male to the female side. It may be a different connector classification or just a way to get around paying royalties to the MCX inventor.
> 
> Bill


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## w6fxj

litzdog911 said:


> I really appreciate your help, Bill. Perhaps your contact at WNC might know where they source those pigtails. I could easily adapt one with a Female TypeF connector on the end, rather than cutting off the existing AT9 pigtails.
> 
> When I get the adapters that I ordered from White Sands Engineering, perhaps I could send one to you to try out on your AT9 dish. I don't know anyone in my area that has an AT9 yet.
> 
> Thanks again!


I have forwarded your request to the WNC USA technical person, who is going to forward it to his engineering contact in China. I am sure they will be able to help. Maybe with the right connectors that will fit.


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## doctor j

Here is the text of a post I had at satelliteguys

Not exactly the same issue but two cal-amp dishes can be connected at significant distances apart.

:For those of you who have Line Of Sight issues but would like to upgrade to the AT-9 dish for MPEG-4 receivers I can confirm a solution.
I had proposed previously that since the Cal Amp version of the AT-9 dish has regular F connectors that 2 dishes can be connected together with regular coax cable and function as one (the side arm 110 & 119 LNB of dish #1 connected to the main 101 - 99&103 LNB housing of Dish #2). I constructed a setup as above separated by 25 feet of coax between the 2 dishes and recorded the following signal strengths using an old Hughes receiver. Unfortunately my H-20 went KAPUT on the 1st restart and could not complete the test. They are way too fragile!

Cal Amp Dish #1
101 tr 1 - 99
119 tr 22-100
110 tr 8 - 88 

Cal Amp Dish #2
101 tr 1 - 99
119 tr 22-100
110 tr 8 - 82 

Duo-Dish 
101 tr 1 - 99
119 tr 22- 99
110 tr 8 - 87

Therefore at 25 feet there is NO significant signal deterioration with the dual dish setup.

Doctor j


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## litzdog911

Thanks doctor j! 
Here's a link back to your thread at satelliteguys ....
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=73190

I see from your information there that you're using the Cal Amp dish which uses normal TypeF connectors between the two LNB assemblies instead of the MCX dongle connectors of the WNC and possibly other AT9 dishes. Do have a source for those Cal Amp dishes?

Also, I assume you still had to use the SatC Combiner Kit as I showed on my earlier connection diagrams .... special SatC LNB on the 110-deg dish combined with one side of the 119-deg LNB's dual output, right?


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## bobnielsen

litzdog911 said:


> Thanks doctor j!
> Here's a link back to your thread at satelliteguys ....
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=73190
> 
> I see from your information there that you're using the Cal Amp dish which uses normal TypeF connectors between the two LNB assemblies instead of the MCX dongle connectors of the WNC and possibly other AT9 dishes. Do have a source for those Cal Amp dishes?
> 
> Also, I assume you still had to use the SatC Combiner Kit as I showed on my earlier connection diagrams .... special SatC LNB on the 110-deg dish combined with one side of the 119-deg LNB's dual output, right?


You might have to purchase a Cal Amp dish--most people seem to be getting Wistron as part of a free installation. Of course if the adapters work--no problem.

Does anyone else feel there are getting to be too many forums to track?


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## doctor j

Got the dishes on e-bay.
The Cal amp side arm LNB has Port 1 and Port 2 that act like even / odd polarity and are connected to the main LNB Port 1 and Port2.
Same theory as sat c setup.

Doctor j


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## litzdog911

doctor j said:


> Got the dishes on e-bay.
> The Cal amp side arm LNB has Port 1 and Port 2 that act like even / odd polarity and are connected to the main LNB Port 1 and Port2.
> Same theory as sat c setup.
> 
> Doctor j


OK, now I get it ....
You actually used two AT9 dishes, right? One place where it can "see" the 99/101/103 satellites, the other about 25-feet away where it can "see" the 110/119 satellites. Is that right?


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## doctor j

Correct

2 AT-9 dishes.

I'd be interested to see if using the sat b and sat c dishes with the sat c combiner into the correct ports on the main lnb would work. I bet it will.
If I can find the parts I'll try it out but will be a week or two.

Doctor J


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## litzdog911

Update ....
Just met with local installer from Ironwood Communications. He's confident that my scheme to combine my existing SatC/110 and SatB/119 dishes with a new AT9 (for 99/101/103) should work. And, luckily, they use CalAmp dishes with "normal" TypeF connectors between the two LNB assemblies instead of the smaller MCX connectors. 

He's coming back tomorrow, though, because he's a bit concerned that my current 101-deg/SatA dish location might not be optimal to see the 99/101/103 birds. Keeping my fingers crossed!


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## bobnielsen

litzdog911 said:


> Update ....
> Just met with local installer from Ironwood Communications. He's confident that my scheme to combine my existing SatC/110 and SatB/119 dishes with a new AT9 (for 99/101/103) should work. And, luckily, they use CalAmp dishes with "normal" TypeF connectors between the two LNB assemblies instead of the smaller MCX connectors.
> 
> He's coming back tomorrow, though, because he's a bit concerned that my current 101-deg/SatA dish location might not be optimal to see the 99/101/103 birds. Keeping my fingers crossed!


Interesting--I wonder if Ironwood has more than one Seattle-area office (they used the Wistron dish for my installation on July 31).


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## litzdog911

bobnielsen said:


> Interesting--I wonder if Ironwood has more than one Seattle-area office (they used the Wistron dish for my installation on July 31).


The guy who visited me today is based in Lynnwood. Seemed very knowledgable. Said that they currently have both CalAmp and WNC/Wistron AT9 dishes, and that they prefer the CalAmps because they don't like the little MCX connectors between the two LNB assemblies.


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## litzdog911

Update:

Thanks to the folks at Ironwood Communications in Seattle (Jim, Axel, David, Brad, Chris), I think we found a simple scheme that works! We actually did not need to add my existing 110-deg and 119-deg dishes directly to the Ka/Ku AT9 dish's input ports. In fact, we didn't even mount the 110/119 Ka/Ku AT9 dish LNBs. 

Instead we connected my existing 110-deg and 119-deg dishes directly to the Zinwell multiswitch as follows ....

* Connect two cables from Ka/Ku AT9 dish outputs to the first two Zinwell WB68 multiswitch inputs (13V, 18V)
* Connect one side of 119-deg (SatB) dish LNB output to 13V/22kHz input on Zinwell multiswitch
* Connect other side of 119-deg (SatB ) dish LNB to input of SatC combiner. Connect 110-deg (SatC) dish LNB to other SatC combiner input. Connect combiner output to 18V/22kHz input on Zinwell multiswitch.

This seems to work, although we're not 100% sure that the 103-deg Ka satellite will be properly switched because the Ka/Ku dish outputs only connect to the first two Zinwell Multiswitch inputs. We couldn't fully test this because there are no signals on the 103-deg Ka satellite aimed at Seattle. If, down the road, we discover that I'm not receiving 103-deg Ka satellite signals, we'll try the scheme proposed earlier of connecting the 110-deg and 119-deg dishes directly to the inputs on the Ka/Ku AT LNB assemby.


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## litzdog911

Well, as I suspected my current wiring scheme works fine for all satellites except 103-deg. 

Tonight I did some checking, bypassing the Zinwell multiswitch and connecting the Ka/Ku AT9 99/101/103 LNB outputs directly to my HR20 DVR. Discovered that there is indeed a signal from the 103-deg satellite in Seattle (reading 57 on transponder 3). This signal is not passed through the multiswitch, though, because the 99/101/103 LNB is not connected to the 22kHz inputs on the Zinwell multiswitch. That's where my combined 110/119-deg dishes are connected.

Fortunately it's not an urgent problem in Seattle because our MPEG4 channels come from the 99-deg satellite. But I will be contacting my local installers about trying my original wiring scheme as described earlier in this thread.


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## Claus

I am reading this thread and see problems, but maybe my mistake. We know 2 same cal amp AT9 dish can be remote with RG6 to help 110/119 tree problems because cal amp has F connector for 110/119 LNB. I read somebody wish to combine old style 110/119 LNB into AT9 main LNB. SBCA training said this can not be possible because AT9 use 5 volt or something in 110/119 LNB and old style need more of course. I measure AT9 before and voltage is very low to 110/119 LNB but I forgot what company AT9 I measure. If all kind AT9 use 5 volt then adaptor for WNC small connector will not work with old style LNB because voltage is low. WNC connector is not MCX, looks like SMB. If you find long cable with SMB you maybe can remote 2 WNC AT9 but much easier to get cal amp or other kind with F connector and remote. Ironwood fix should work but maybe I need to learn more about signal from AT9. Phase 3 dish also should work with WB68 if 2 cable are in port 3 and 4 of WB68 and AT9 use port 1 and 2. Good luck and tell us if something works.
Claus


----------



## litzdog911

Claus said:


> I am reading this thread and see problems, but maybe my mistake. We know 2 same cal amp AT9 dish can be remote with RG6 to help 110/119 tree problems because cal amp has F connector for 110/119 LNB. I read somebody wish to combine old style 110/119 LNB into AT9 main LNB. SBCA training said this can not be possible because AT9 use 5 volt or something in 110/119 LNB and old style need more of course. I measure AT9 before and voltage is very low to 110/119 LNB but I forgot what company AT9 I measure. If all kind AT9 use 5 volt then adaptor for WNC small connector will not work with old style LNB because voltage is low. WNC connector is not MCX, looks like SMB. If you find long cable with SMB you maybe can remote 2 WNC AT9 but much easier to get cal amp or other kind with F connector and remote. Ironwood fix should work but maybe I need to learn more about signal from AT9. Phase 3 dish also should work with WB68 if 2 cable are in port 3 and 4 of WB68 and AT9 use port 1 and 2. Good luck and tell us if something works.
> Claus


Thanks, Claus. I will check the LNB voltage between the two Ka/Ku AT9 LNB assemblies. I currently have a CalAmp Ka/Ku installed, but we left off the 110/119 LNB assembly. Hopefully the CalAmp dish connectors will be compatible with my existing 110/119 dish LNBs.

It will not work to connect Phase3 dish outputs to Zinwell WB68 multiswitch inputs 3 & 4, with Ka/Ku AT9 outputs only connected to multiswitch inputs 1 & 2.  If the Ka/Ku AT9 outputs are not connected to multiswitch inputs 3 & 4, then you will not see the 103-deg satellite.


----------



## bobnielsen

litzdog911 said:


> Well, as I suspected my current wiring scheme works fine for all satellites except 103-deg.
> 
> Tonight I did some checking, bypassing the Zinwell multiswitch and connecting the Ka/Ku AT9 99/101/103 LNB outputs directly to my HR20 DVR. Discovered that there is indeed a signal from the 103-deg satellite in Seattle (reading 57 on transponder 3). This signal is not passed through the multiswitch, though, because the 99/101/103 LNB is not connected to the 22kHz inputs on the Zinwell multiswitch. That's where my combined 110/119-deg dishes are connected.
> 
> Fortunately it's not an urgent problem in Seattle because our MPEG4 channels come from the 99-deg satellite. But I will be contacting my local installers about trying my original wiring scheme as described earlier in this thread.


I suspect that the 57 reading on transponder 3 may be a Portland spot beam.


----------



## zortapa

I recently installed an Andrew 5LNB dish at my parents' house. They also have a tree problem, but it is only with SATB/119. Based on the discussion in this thread, it seems that I might be able to point their old 1LNB dish at 119 and then connect it to port 1 on the Andrew dish (RG6 and F connector). I would also leave the 110/119 assembly on the Andrew dish, but only connect the 110 LNB to port 2.

Based on your experience/research, does anyone foresee a problem with this setup?

Thanks.


----------



## litzdog911

zortapa said:


> I recently installed an Andrew 5LNB dish at my parents' house. They also have a tree problem, but it is only with SATB/119. Based on the discussion in this thread, it seems that I might be able to point their old 1LNB dish at 119 and then connect it to port 1 on the Andrew dish (RG6 and F connector). I would also leave the 110/119 assembly on the Andrew dish, but only connect the 110 LNB to port 2.
> 
> Based on your experience/research, does anyone foresee a problem with this setup?
> 
> Thanks.


I don't think that will work. If you only connect one of the SATB/119 LNB's two outputs to the AT9 Ka/Ku dish, then I think you'll only get half of the 119's transponders (odds or evens). In other words, I'm pretty sure that those inputs on the AT9 dish are not simply "Port 1 = 119 LNB" and "Port 2 = 110 LNB". I think those inputs represent the _combined _110+119 LNBs, as shown in my earlier diagrams. You could connected both of your SATB/119 LNB outputs to those two AT9 inputs, but then you'll lose SATC/110.

But I admit I haven't actually tried connecting my existing dishes to those AT9 inputs yet.

Let's see what the other experts here think.


----------



## Claus

Installer training guys say that AT9 can be damage if other LNB is connect to AT9 main LNB. I measure about 5 volt on one AT9 110/119 connector, this will not power other kind LNB. 
Claus


zortapa said:


> I recently installed an Andrew 5LNB dish at my parents' house. They also have a tree problem, but it is only with SATB/119. Based on the discussion in this thread, it seems that I might be able to point their old 1LNB dish at 119 and then connect it to port 1 on the Andrew dish (RG6 and F connector). I would also leave the 110/119 assembly on the Andrew dish, but only connect the 110 LNB to port 2.
> 
> Based on your experience/research, does anyone foresee a problem with this setup?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## zortapa

Claus, Thanks.


----------



## litzdog911

Update ....

Again, major thanks to the local Ironwood crew (Ax, Nick, Jim, and others) for taking the time to test out our various theories for combining my existing 110-deg and 119-deg round dishes with a new Ka/Ku AT9 dish. Unfortunately, we discovered that the Ka/Ku AT9 is simply not compatible electrically with older existing LNBs, so we were not able to combine those.

Fortunately we were successful using two Ka/Ku AT9 dishes at different spots on my house, one for 99/101/103-deg satellites (using the AT9's main LNB), and one for 110/119-deg (using the secondary LNBs) mounted about 25-feet away from the main dish. The secondary LNB of the 110/119-deg dish is connected to the side inputs on the main LNB of the 99/101/103-deg dish. Fortunately the CalAmp dishes we had still use suitable TypeF coax connectors. The newer WNC dishes use goofy mini-connectors (not MCX-style as we initially thought). So this project would be very difficult using WNC dishes unless you crafted your own cables.

I've attached updated diagrams and photos ....

Diagram 1: Our original idea to connect my existing 110-deg/119-deg dishes and existing "SatC Combiner" to the side inputs on the CalAmp AT9 dish. Our hope was that the old dishes would look electrically the same to the AT9 dish as its own side arm 110/119 LNB. Unfortunately, not the case. We suspect, as some of you told me, that the voltage levels from the AT9 main LNBs are too low for older style LNBs.

Diagrams 2 & 3: Connecting two outputs from the Ka/Ku AT9 dish to two of the Zinwell WB68 multiswitch inputs, along with two inputs from the original combined SatC/SatB dishes, sort of works. As long as you don't care about the new 103-deg Ka satellite. Receivers connected to the multiswitch with this configuration will see all satellites except 103-deg. We did try using the Zinwell Flexports with the 110-deg and 119-deg satellite LNBs in various combinations, but those did not work either.

Diagram 4: This one works! My final scheme using two Ka/Ku dishes mounted about 25' apart, one receiving 99/101/103-deg satellites and the other receiving 110/119-deg satellites. The remote 110/119-deg AT9 LNB is connected to the two input ports of the main AT9 dish (port 1 to port 1, port 2 to port 2). This scheme works fine. 

Photos 1, 2 & 3: My final installation. Went from three 18" dishes to 2 Ka/Ku AT9 dishes. The lower dish receives the 99/101/103 satellites and has the higher dish's 110/119 LNB connected to it. Let's hope the wife approves


----------



## carl6

litzdog911 said:


> Let's hope the wife approves


The age old "man" saying:

It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

Carl


----------



## bobnielsen

Isn't that why jewelry was invented?


----------



## doctor j

litzdog911

Glad to here things worked out.
I knew the two AT-9 Cal Amp solution would work as I had reported.
Unfortunately if one needs to "see" 101 110 &119 from 3 different sites the solution really gets complicated.
Thanks for reporting all your hard work.
Hope you get to enjoy it soon

Doctor j


----------



## Davenlr

Litzdog, got a question for you. I am in the same situation, and Ironwood agreed to just drop off the dish later in the week, since they said they would not be able to install it in my situation. I want to run this scenario by you all, and see if you think it will work......

Current setup, 3' dish, standard dual LNB for 119
24" dish, with combiner for 110
regular dish with dual lnb for 101

Run to a multiswitch under the house. Now, will this work:

Install new 5 lnb dish at location current 101 dish is, which will be able to see the three sats around 101. Wont see either 110 or 119. Set this up as if it could see them. If plugged into receiver it would receive main sat and two new ones. BUT instead of plugging it into the receiver, plug it into the 101 input of the current multiswitch. Since the receiver sends a 22khz tone to switch from to the two western sats, the old multiswitch would use the old dishes I currently have, but when the tone was removed, it would "look" to the new dish, with the three active lnbs instead. Would this work, or is the output of the multiswitch on the new 5 lnb dish not compatable with the input on the old multiswitch? I could get two new dishes, but would rather utilize the current ones, since the 3' dish doesnt rain fade, and all transponders peg out at full strength, and it would save me a considerable amount of money not having to buy a second 5 lnb dish.

Ideas?


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> Litzdog, got a question for you. I am in the same situation, and Ironwood agreed to just drop off the dish later in the week, since they said they would not be able to install it in my situation. I want to run this scenario by you all, and see if you think it will work......
> 
> Current setup, 3' dish, standard dual LNB for 119
> 24" dish, with combiner for 110
> regular dish with dual lnb for 101
> 
> Run to a multiswitch under the house. Now, will this work:
> 
> Install new 5 lnb dish at location current 101 dish is, which will be able to see the three sats around 101. Wont see either 110 or 119. Set this up as if it could see them. If plugged into receiver it would receive main sat and two new ones. BUT instead of plugging it into the receiver, plug it into the 101 input of the current multiswitch. Since the receiver sends a 22khz tone to switch from to the two western sats, the old multiswitch would use the old dishes I currently have, but when the tone was removed, it would "look" to the new dish, with the three active lnbs instead. Would this work, or is the output of the multiswitch on the new 5 lnb dish not compatable with the input on the old multiswitch?  I could get two new dishes, but would rather utilize the current ones, since the 3' dish doesnt rain fade, and all transponders peg out at full strength, and it would save me a considerable amount of money not having to buy a second 5 lnb dish.
> 
> Ideas?


There appear to be two problems doing that.

1. Your current multiswitch may not pass the 250-750 and/or 1650-2150 outputs of the Ka LNBs. That could be easily rectified with a WB68 but:

2. As Litzdog911 found out, the 103 LNB also uses the 22 kHz signal. When the 22 kHz signal is missing 99 is output in addition to 101 (remember these are different frequencies so they won't interfere). Likewise, 103 is ouput in addition to 110/119 when the tone is present).

There may be a way to make it work with three dishes but it would require modifying the 110/119 interconnection circuitry to have separate inputs, which is probably achievable, but not an easy task. It's unfortunate that the 13/18 volt polarization switching scheme wasn't carried through to the new 110/119 LNBs. Hopefully one of the dish manufacturers will come up with a practical solution allowing three separate dishes.

Of course there is also the "chainsaw" solution


----------



## Davenlr

So the voltage on the two sidemounted lnbs of the new dish are lower voltage and wont power standard lnbs is the way I am taking this. If this is the case, there may be a power block, power injector such as those used for mast mounted amps which could be inserted into the lines from the main dish to the external western lnbs could work, if the port 1 and port 2 is the equivilent of the two inputs of a standard multiswitch, and not actually separate one ten and nineteen inputs where the nineteen is only using one output and voltage switched between polarities. Do you know which it is?


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> So the voltage on the two sidemounted lnbs of the new dish are lower voltage and wont power standard lnbs is the way I am taking this. If this is the case, there may be a power block, power injector such as those used for mast mounted amps which could be inserted into the lines from the main dish to the external western lnbs could work, if the port 1 and port 2 is the equivilent of the two inputs of a standard multiswitch, and not actually separate one ten and nineteen inputs where the nineteen is only using one output and voltage switched between polarities. Do you know which it is?


Yes, the two ports on the main (99/101/103) are for the combined Sat B (119) and Sat C (110) signals. One would have to make some measurements but I am pretty sure one could create a switching circuit to convert the lower switching voltage to the 13/18v used for normal 110/119 LNBs. I hadn't thought of that, but it sounds easier than trying to modify the AT-9 LNB assembly. I think that just might work. I wonder why they went to the lower voltages on the AT-9 (it could be that the internal voltages on all the LNBs converted to a lower value and it made sense to do that in the main assembly of the AT-9). Any DTV/Wistron/Cal Amp/Andrew designers on this forum?

This thing intrigues me. I wish I had a spare AT-9 to dissect. I'm almost tempted to drag my oscilloscope up to the roof (my wife would have a fit--I'm supposed to be retired!)

Bob


----------



## Davenlr

How about two passive combiners and two DC blocks. Put the blocks in line between port 1 and 2 inputs on the new dish and the two combiners. Then plug the other input on the combiner to an old powered multiswitch. THe two voltages would go to the old two LNBs and the voltage from the new dish would be blocked, but the signal would still travel through the block back to the dish. WOuld this work, or will a DC block and Combiner inline attenuate the KA band signal to much?


----------



## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> How about two passive combiners and two DC blocks. Put the blocks in line between port 1 and 2 inputs on the new dish and the two combiners. Then plug the other input on the combiner to an old powered multiswitch. THe two voltages would go to the old two LNBs and the voltage from the new dish would be blocked, but the signal would still travel through the block back to the dish. WOuld this work, or will a DC block and Combiner inline attenuate the KA band signal to much?


Interesting idea. That might work. But I'm also wondering if the Ka band signals would be attenuated too much. You would need very high quality DC block and combiner.

The other problem is that we were never able to determine if the 110/119 LNB assembly provides the same signals as the older 110+119 LNB with combiner. We know that the voltages are wrong, and that's why we couldn't see anything when connecting my existing 110 and 119 dishes/LNBs to the new AT9 main 99/101/103 LNB assembly. But it's also possible that the new 110/119 LNB assembly does not have the combiner internally, or that the combiner is actually inside the 99/101/103 LNB assembly. I tried several avenues to get a schematic from my contacts at DirecTV with no success.

Do keep us posted with your results.


----------



## Davenlr

I would assume the combiner is not inside the SAT A/KA LNB since you said your method of using your old SAT B/C dishes using the multiswitch input worked, minus the one new KA sat, which showed you used the combiner on the outside. Ill check and see if I can find a two port combiner and DC Block rated for 2.5GHz and if its cheap enough, Ill give it a try, otherwise Ill probably just order a second 5 lnb dish like you did. Im just not really sure I can see SAT B and SAT C from a single location in my yard without getting out the chainsaw, and three of the new dishes is not really what I want hanging off my house. The current ones are ground mounted, and quite hidden by shrubs.


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## Davenlr

Well, being unable to find the parts rated for 2GHz, I just bit the bullet and ordered a second Andrews AT9 from Summit for $93. Ive spotted a location where I can pick up 110/119, and another spot where I can pick up 99/101/103, so Ill set my system up like yours, using 2" ground mounted pipes in a little quickcrete, and hopefully Ill be in good shape until the trees grow a little more, then Ill have to figure something else out. If Im really lucky, they will quit using 119 when they get all the HD stuff on the new sats, and I wont have to worry about it, since I could care less about SD locals.


----------



## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> Well, being unable to find the parts rated for 2GHz, I just bit the bullet and ordered a second Andrews AT9 from Summit for $93. Ive spotted a location where I can pick up 110/119, and another spot where I can pick up 99/101/103, so Ill set my system up like yours, using 2" ground mounted pipes in a little quickcrete, and hopefully Ill be in good shape until the trees grow a little more, then Ill have to figure something else out. If Im really lucky, they will quit using 119 when they get all the HD stuff on the new sats, and I wont have to worry about it, since I could care less about SD locals.


Keep us posted on your results. My setup is still working fine.


----------



## Davenlr

Well, I was hoping to be able to update you on how it worked, except Summit Source sent me the wrong dish. I ordered the Andrews AT9 and after UPS figured out where I lived (since the address on the shipping label was wrong), they delivered a Westron dish with the little connectors from hell, so now Im in the process of trying to get them to replace it with the Andrews I was supposed to get, this after spending $37 on shipping alone. Im getting really frustrated. Cable is looking better every day.


----------



## Lowry666

Hey Litzdog,
I was looking at the pics you posted and I got to thinking about something. The connectors look alot like the one on my Sirius receiver. Guess what, they are the same. You can use the Sirius antenna extension cable to do the 2 dish method if you're like me and having trouble finding a CAL/AMP dish.

Take care,
Lowry


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## Davenlr

How long are the extension cables for Sirius? Would it be possible to cut the end off one of them, and solder on a F-connector female? Are the LNB's for the Winstrom the same voltages as the Andrews???


----------



## litzdog911

Lowry666 said:


> Hey Litzdog,
> I was looking at the pics you posted and I got to thinking about something. The connectors look alot like the one on my Sirius receiver. Guess what, they are the same. You can use the Sirius antenna extension cable to do the 2 dish method if you're like me and having trouble finding a CAL/AMP dish.
> 
> Take care,
> Lowry


Sweet! Do you have a reliable online source for those extension cables?


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## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> How long are the extension cables for Sirius? Would it be possible to cut the end off one of them, and solder on a F-connector female? Are the LNB's for the Winstrom the same voltages as the Andrews???


I think you would still want to use two AT9's from the same manufacturer rather than mix them.

I found this information about the Sirius extension cables at eBay ....
http://cgi.ebay.com/SIRIUS-50-ANTEN...SIR-EXT50_W0QQitemZ190035748493QQcmdZViewItem

Looks like the AT9 connectors are standard SMB type. Unfortunately this particular Sirius cable includes a 10dB amplifier that you don't want to use with the AT9 dish. But SMB extension cables shouldn't be too hard to find.


----------



## Lowry666

BB and the like want 50 bucks for them. I have seen them in most of their stores. I found a guy on ebay that has them for about the same price including shipping. I am not sure if they use RG58 for them and don't know if putting an F on them would be worth the hassle as opposed to the adapters listed earlier in this thread. Also the length on them is 50 feet. If I can find a cheaper source I will definately post it here.


Lowry


----------



## Davenlr

I didnt see any adapters listed earlier, must have missed them. If I can find an adapter, then I guess I can just install this other dish they sent, hopefully the LNBs use the same voltages. Ok, I found that part of the thread. 

Litzdog, did those connectors you ordered fit or did you need to modify them? The $8 ones. If they work, I guess Ill just go ahead and use this dish I have, and buy two of those adapters...


----------



## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> I didnt see any adapters listed earlier, must have missed them. If I can find an adapter, then I guess I can just install this other dish they sent, hopefully the LNBs use the same voltages. Ok, I found that part of the thread.
> 
> Litzdog, did those connectors you ordered fit or did you need to modify them? The $8 ones. If they work, I guess Ill just go ahead and use this dish I have, and buy two of those adapters...


Not, the MCX-style connectors are *not * the correct ones. Lowry666 just reported that they're SMB connectors, the same ones that Sirius uses on their antenna extension cables. See the previous post. And let us know your results.


----------



## litzdog911

XM must use the same connectors ....
I found this SMB-to-TypeF coax adapter ....
http://www.myradiostore.us/xm-signal-distribution/f-jack-smb-plug-adapter.html

Just need to make sure you're getting the correct "sex" adapters. Closely study the photos earlier in this thread.


----------



## Davenlr

Ok, thanks. If they wont make good on the Andrews I tried to buy, Ill try that route. Couldnt really tell from the picture if it was a male or female. Guess I can go to Best Buy and look at a XM radio and see if it has the same sex as the satellite lnb.


----------



## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> Ok, thanks. If they wont make good on the Andrews I tried to buy, Ill try that route. Couldnt really tell from the picture if it was a male or female. Guess I can go to Best Buy and look at a XM radio and see if it has the same sex as the satellite lnb.


Let us know what you find out.


----------



## Davenlr

Summit Source agreed to send me another Andrews, so hopefully I wont be needing to worry about the SMB connectors. Thanks guys.


----------



## Davenlr

I saw somewhere where there was a list of what channels were on which directv satellite/transponder, but I cant find it. Anyone know where its at?
Im trying to figure out whats on 99 and whats on 103


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> I saw somewhere where there was a list of what channels were on which directv satellite/transponder, but I cant find it. Anyone know where its at?
> Im trying to figure out whats on 99 and whats on 103


Try http://www.lyngsat.com/america.html. It may not be up-to-date with the latest additions, but should be pretty close.


----------



## Davenlr

Yea, Ive seen that one, but there was another page that listed which channels were on which satellite...

Like:
Discovery HD 110W Tr 12

Im curious whats on the two KA satellites. I have one dish up and running, waiting on UPS to deliver the second one. I am getting 99 transponder 6, and was curious what was on it.


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> Yea, Ive seen that one, but there was another page that listed which channels were on which satellite...
> 
> Like:
> Discovery HD 110W Tr 12
> 
> Im curious whats on the two KA satellites. I have one dish up and running, waiting on UPS to deliver the second one. I am getting 99 transponder 6, and was curious what was on it.


These will tell you which satellite but not which transponder or spotbeam:

http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa99.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa103.html

I haven't seen any transponder or spotbeam maps for 99 or 103.


----------



## Davenlr

Ok, thanks. Thats what I was looking for. So, does that mean that if I am getting a 90 signal strength on tr 6 of the 99 sat, that I am picking up the spot beam for Kansas City (200 miles away), since thats the only city listed there anywhere near me? I couldnt find a national "test channel" for the 99 bird, like the other three KU sats.


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> Ok, thanks. Thats what I was looking for. So, does that mean that if I am getting a 90 signal strength on tr 6 of the 99 sat, that I am picking up the spot beam for Kansas City (200 miles away), since thats the only city listed there anywhere near me? I couldnt find a national "test channel" for the 99 bird, like the other three KU sats.


Probably, unless they are planning to activate another area and the transponder is being tested. 90 sounds a bit high for 200 miles away (I am getting ~55 for the Portland, OR transponder and Portland is approx 200 miles from me) but it depends a lot on where the spot is centered.

It would be nice if they had test channels for 99 and 103, but since they use the same logic as 101 and 110/119 the current test channels will verify that the receiver is putting out the correct signals.


----------



## Davenlr

If you know how this works, could you run it down for me? Im good with 101, and 119. 110 adds the 3 transponders to "blanks" on 119, so the receiver thinks 110 and 119 are the same, if I have it straight. The receiver sends 13V for one polarity, 19V for the other, and the 22khz tone switches between 101 and 110/119... Now, two KA sats, how it the receiver "requesting" those be sent, or are they both going to be "always there", one downconverted to 250MHz and one above the KU band? How are they switched? I understand you need the 22KHz tone for the 103. How does the receiver know you want 103 and not 110/119? I really cant find all the info in one place. I like to know how things work in my system, makes fixing or souping it up a lot easier.


----------



## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> If you know how this works, could you run it down for me? Im good with 101, and 119. 110 adds the 3 transponders to "blanks" on 119, so the receiver thinks 110 and 119 are the same, if I have it straight. The receiver sends 13V for one polarity, 19V for the other, and the 22khz tone switches between 101 and 110/119... Now, two KA sats, how it the receiver "requesting" those be sent, or are they both going to be "always there", one downconverted to 250MHz and one above the KU band? How are they switched? I understand you need the 22KHz tone for the 103. How does the receiver know you want 103 and not 110/119? I really cant find all the info in one place. I like to know how things work in my system, makes fixing or souping it up a lot easier.


The Ka-band satellites use different frequency bands on your coax cable, that's why different satellites can be selected using the same voltage/switching frequency. Watched the AT9 installation videos for a nice explanation of how the signals are sent down the coax cables ....

http://www.solidsignal.com/dtvkuka


----------



## Davenlr

Thanks, Ive watched them... So to get 103, it sends the 22khz tone, and the multiswitch sends 110/119 AND 103 at the same time, on KU/KA, Is that correct? If so, moving on to my next question....

Which satellite is sent back using the Baseband converters? 99 or 103? It appears from the conversations, most people having problems with their system are removing them, and its still working ok. Shouldnt they be losing one of the satellites if they remove them?


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> Thanks, Ive watched them... So to get 103, it sends the 22khz tone, and the multiswitch sends 110/119 AND 103 at the same time, on KU/KA, Is that correct? If so, moving on to my next question....
> 
> Which satellite is sent back using the Baseband converters? 99 or 103? It appears from the conversations, most people having problems with their system are removing them, and its still working ok. Shouldnt they be losing one of the satellites if they remove them?


Yes, the 22 kHz tone is used for 110/119 plus 103 and absence of that tone is used for 101 plus 99. The LNB output is 950-1450 MHz for 101 and 110/119.

The Ka Band is split and the LNB outputs 250-750 MHz or 1650-2150 MHz, depending on which part of the band is used. If it is 1650-2150, this is input directly into the receiver. If the output is 250-750, the B-Band Converter translates this to 1650-2150. I believe that the current 99 and 103 satellties both only use frequencies which result in the 1650-2150 output, which is why the systems work without the converter being attached. The receiver will select 99 or 103 by use of the 22 kHz tone, as with 101 and 110/119. Future satellites (Directv 10 and 11) to be launched next year will probably use the other frequency range and require use of the converter.

There will have to be some method of turning the converter on and off. I suspect that a tone from the receiver will be used, but no technical details have been released.

I'm not sure why the baseband converter is external to the receiver. Maybe the receiver design was too far along at the time this scheme was devised to allow it to be internal.

Caveat--much of what I just said is the result of observation with a little speculation and may not be completely correct (I have no inside knowledge).


----------



## Davenlr

OK, thats great. Good information. Dont know why they are so secretive about it. You would think it would help installers and consumers alike, if they make the operations general knowlege. In any case, I noticed the receiver has one port labeled FTM, but not the other one, so maybe they originally only planned on using the low band on one tuner, and changed their minds to late?? Be nice if a D* engineer would actually get online here and answer questions. Would be great for their PR, and help the heck out of people like me fighting to get the system working well in a forest


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> OK, thats great. Good information. Dont know why they are so secretive about it. You would think it would help installers and consumers alike, if they make the operations general knowlege. In any case, I noticed the receiver has one port labeled FTM, but not the other one, so maybe they originally only planned on using the low band on one tuner, and changed their minds to late?? Be nice if a D* engineer would actually get online here and answer questions. Would be great for their PR, and help the heck out of people like me fighting to get the system working well in a forest


The FTM port is for use with a future Frequency Translation Module which will allow using a single cable to feed several tuners (like a stacker does).


----------



## Davenlr

Ok, great. Just one more question and Ill leave you alone... Does the AT9 have the capability of receiving KA at 101 as well as KU? Reason I ask, the satellite they just launched has 2 KA transponders on it, along with its compliment of KU's. Can see them just letting them sit there unused, or maybe they plan to use them for some type of backhaul?


----------



## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> Ok, great. Just one more question and Ill leave you alone... Does the AT9 have the capability of receiving KA at 101 as well as KU? Reason I ask, the satellite they just launched has 2 KA transponders on it, along with its compliment of KU's. Can see them just letting them sit there unused, or maybe they plan to use them for some type of backhaul?


I don't think that the 101-deg LNB receives both Ku and the newer Ka-band signals, but I could be wrong. I do know that the current satellites at 101-deg W just use Ka-band for backhaul links, not beaming channels to us. It's a safe bet, though, the the AT9 Ka/Ku 5-LNB dish should be the last DirecTV dish that we'll need for at least a few years.


----------



## Davenlr

litzdog911 said:


> It's a safe bet, though, the the AT9 Ka/Ku 5-LNB dish should be the last DirecTV dish that we'll need for at least a few years.


Hope so, my garage after this week, will have two 18" dishes, one 24" dish, one 36" dish, and one Phase III multisat dish sitting in it, with two nice new AT9's mounted on masts next to the house. Now, if the trees dont grow to fast, I wont have to sneak up my neighbors tree at night to cut down ONE stupid limb that seems intent on blocking 110.


----------



## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> Hope so, my garage after this week, will have two 18" dishes, one 24" dish, one 36" dish, and one Phase III multisat dish sitting in it, with two nice new AT9's mounted on masts next to the house. Now, if the trees dont grow to fast, I wont have to sneak up my neighbors tree at night to cut down ONE stupid limb that seems intent on blocking 110.


I know the feeling! In my garage I now have ....
* 1 old Sony 18" dish/LNB
* 3 Winegard 18" dish/LNBs
* SatC kit, including special 110-deg satellite LNB
* 1 old Phase III dish/LNBs
* spare AT9 main 99/101/103 LNB assembly
* spare AT9 110/119 LNB assembly
* several multiswitches


----------



## Davenlr

Thanks for the help guys, Now have both AT9's installed on poles on the south side of the house. 
101 signal is 95-100
110 signal is 85-95
119 signal is 94-100
99 signal is 92 on tr 6 (only one coming in)
103 signal is 0,92,0,94,0,92

I guess Im only getting one polarization from 103, or maybe there arent any signals on the other transponders, dont know, but I am assuming its working ok, since I can get something on all 5. I have not installed the base band converters yet, as I was told I dont need them until next year when the new satellites go up.


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> Thanks for the help guys, Now have both AT9's installed on poles on the south side of the house.
> 101 signal is 95-100
> 110 signal is 85-95
> 119 signal is 94-100
> 99 signal is 92 on tr 6 (only one coming in)
> 103 signal is 0,92,0,94,0,92
> 
> I guess Im only getting one polarization from 103, or maybe there arent any signals on the other transponders, dont know, but I am assuming its working ok, since I can get something on all 5. I have not installed the base band converters yet, as I was told I dont need them until next year when the new satellites go up.


That's normal for 99 and 103, since all transponders use spot beams. I only see one weak one on 103 and the H20 doesn't display anything for 99 because of a software glitch.

With the Slimline dishes replacing At-9s. combining two dishes becomes much more difficult.


----------



## Davenlr

Shame too. These Andrews dishes zeroed right in on the sats, with presets, and the fine adjustments made peaking a breeze. I passed on the directv approved method, and used the signal meter on the receiver, since I didnt have to worry about 110 and 119 when I peaked the main dish. It was real easy to peak using the signal off the KA sat. Just wish the HR20 had a audio level output. Beats having a friend yelling out the door, 88, NOPE, 90, Opps, go back. hahaha


----------



## bobnielsen

Davenlr said:


> Shame too. These Andrews dishes zeroed right in on the sats, with presets, and the fine adjustments made peaking a breeze. I passed on the directv approved method, and used the signal meter on the receiver, since I didnt have to worry about 110 and 119 when I peaked the main dish. It was real easy to peak using the signal off the KA sat. Just wish the HR20 had a audio level output. Beats having a friend yelling out the door, 88, NOPE, 90, Opps, go back. hahaha


Andrew has a good reputation. They have been in the antenna and cable business for a long time.

I watched the new installation videos. They have changed the adjustment stuff a bit (it is the same for either dish), but it's pretty close to the old method. Apparently with the Slimline, the design is the same no matter who is the manufacturer. There doesn't appear to be an easy way to combine separate dishes for 99/101/103 and 110/119 since the connections are internal.


----------



## Viper67857

bobnielsen said:


> There may be a way to make it work with three dishes but it would require modifying the 110/119 interconnection circuitry to have separate inputs, which is probably achievable, but not an easy task. It's unfortunate that the 13/18 volt polarization switching scheme wasn't carried through to the new 110/119 LNBs. Hopefully one of the dish manufacturers will come up with a practical solution allowing three separate dishes.
> 
> Of course there is also the "chainsaw" solution


just a thoery, but i think the following diagram should work (connect the multiswitch to the power-passing side of splitter, at9 lnb to non-passing side):


----------



## P Smith

bobnielsen said:


> <skip>
> Caveat--much of what I just said is the result of observation with a little speculation and may not be completely correct (I have no inside knowledge).


Here is more accurate info on page#3: http://www.hometech.com/pdf/gc-wb68.pdf
BBC will up-convert Ka-Lo (250-750 MHz) into A Band(1650-2150 MHZ) by signal from H[R]20.
Question is what kind of signal the BBC module require ?


----------



## bobnielsen

That agrees with what I posted. I haven't seen any description of the signal which activates the BBC module. Probably a tone (other than 22 kHz). Likewise for 72.5 or 95 to select those with a multiswitch.


----------



## P Smith

lets keep looking, probably some other day will bring technical paper what will reveal the signaling ...


----------



## Davenlr

Viper67857 said:


> just a thoery, but i think the following diagram should work (connect the multiswitch to the power-passing side of splitter, at9 lnb to non-passing side):


That could work, however, I noticed in testing, that voltage was only supplied to the 110/119 LNB when the 22khz tone was supplied to the main multiswitch. I dont guess it would matter if power was on all the time though. This is the method I was going to use, until I found a spot where I could see both 110 and 119 from a single dish, so I ended up buying a second AT9.


----------



## litzdog911

Viper67857 said:


> just a thoery, but i think the following diagram should work (connect the multiswitch to the power-passing side of splitter, at9 lnb to non-passing side):


Using another 2x4 or 2x8 multiswitch to provide power to "force" the correct transponders/polarization on each side of the 119+110 signal might just work. I wish we would have had this diagram before I took down my 110 and 119-deg dishes!

The main problem might still be whether the AT9 dish's main LNB assembly is electrically compatible with the signals coming from the powered 110+119 combination. Several experts claim that the AT9 using a different voltage/switching scheme from its internal multiswitch, making it incompatible with other dishes using 13/18V.

Hopefully somebody can try out your idea and post back their results.


----------



## litzdog911

Davenlr said:


> That could work, however, I noticed in testing, that voltage was only supplied to the 110/119 LNB when the 22khz tone was supplied to the main multiswitch. I dont guess it would matter if power was on all the time though. This is the method I was going to use, until I found a spot where I could see both 110 and 119 from a single dish, so I ended up buying a second AT9.


Yes, that's what I wound up doing, too .... using two AT9's. But hopefully somebody can test your scheme. I no longer have my round dishes, plus it's too rainy in Seattle now


----------



## fo71

Anyone able to try the last scheme utilizing an additional multi switch as power supply along with splitters with dc block on one end?

How about forgetting about AT9 all along.... are there external or independant LNB's for KA 99/103 that could be combined with a typical 3 separate (101,110,119) ku installation? Might be able to endup with 5 separate dihes....

Suggestions, comments welcomed !


Happy Holidays !


----------



## litzdog911

fo71 said:


> Anyone able to try the last scheme utilizing an additional multi switch as power supply along with splitters with dc block on one end?
> 
> How about forgetting about AT9 all along.... are there external or independant LNB's for KA 99/103 that could be combined with a typical 3 separate (101,110,119) ku installation? Might be able to endup with 5 separate dihes....
> 
> Suggestions, comments welcomed !
> 
> Happy Holidays !


I am also hoping that somebody will try the scheme with additional multiswitch & power supplies.

Unfortunately there don't seem to be any standalone Ka-band LNBs that could be used in single LNB dishes. The AT9 and SlimLine dishes are not that simple, either, due to the frequency band translation that occurs inside their LNBs and integrated multiswitch to enable reception of odd & even transponders from five different satellites.


----------



## ericlhyman

Are the DirecTV contracted installers only using the Slimline now or will they use 2 AT9s if necessary to get all satellites from 99 to 119 in locations that are difficult due to tall trees? 

What are the dimensions of the AT9 and the Slimline? If the latter is smaller, isn't it likely to have more difficulty getting all satellites than one AT9 or more susceptibility to rain fade?


----------



## bobnielsen

The AT-9 is about 25 in high by 30 in. wide. I think the Slimline is slightly wider but not as tall. Depending on the beamwidth of the feed horns, the gain and rain fade performance probably aren't all that different.


----------



## litzdog911

ericlhyman said:


> Are the DirecTV contracted installers only using the Slimline now or will they use 2 AT9s if necessary to get all satellites from 99 to 119 in locations that are difficult due to tall trees?
> 
> What are the dimensions of the AT9 and the Slimline? If the latter is smaller, isn't it likely to have more difficulty getting all satellites than one AT9 or more susceptibility to rain fade?


1. Over the next several months it will become harder to find the older AT9 dishes, especially the CalAmp versions with the RG6 interconnections. It would probably be considered a "special" installation to use two AT9 dishes, so you would have to negotiate with the installation company ahead of time.

2. Actually, folks have reported slightly better signal readings with the Slimline compared to the AT9, probably due to improved geometry and better LNB performance (sensitivity, noise figure, etc.).


----------



## ericlhyman

With the Slimline, is it easier or harder to get the 110 and 119 sats than with the 3-LNB Elliptical Dish?


----------



## Kirkman

With the first two ports marked (13v) on the WB68 multiswitch. You would hook these directly to the AT9 Dish (this would pickup the satellites 101-99-103) Now remember we do not have the alt LNB for the 110/119 connected.
On the next two ports marked (22v) on the WB68 you would hookup the feeds from the 119 and the 110 using the combiner. Now you can pickup satellites 99,101,103, and 110,119 using separate dishes....


----------



## Kirkman

Correction on my post above...
The AT9 hooks to the 13v and 18v two first ports and the 110 and 119 using a combiner to the second 13 and 18v ports. These are 22khz ports.


----------



## bobnielsen

I believe that is what litzdog911 tried first and his system did not recognize 103. I think this indicates that 103 is selected using the same logic as 110/119.


----------



## litzdog911

Kirkman said:


> Correction on my post above...
> The AT9 hooks to the 13v and 18v two first ports and the 110 and 119 using a combiner to the second 13 and 18v ports. These are 22khz ports.


No, this does not work. See my earlier posts in this thread.


----------



## litzdog911

ericlhyman said:


> With the Slimline, is it easier or harder to get the 110 and 119 sats than with the 3-LNB Elliptical Dish?


No difference. It depends on _where _your dish is located, not what type of dish you have.


----------



## ItsMeJTO

P Smith said:


> Here is more accurate info on page#3: http://www.hometech.com/pdf/gc-wb68.pdf
> BBC will up-convert Ka-Lo (250-750 MHz) into A Band(1650-2150 MHZ) by signal from H[R]20.
> Question is what kind of signal the BBC module require ?


Quickie:
What are sats 72.5" and 95" used for ?


----------



## Tom Robertson

72.5 and 95 are local SD channels and international programming. Lyngsat.com will tell you which is which.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## litzdog911

ItsMeJTO said:


> Quickie:
> What are sats 72.5" and 95" used for ?


http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa72.html

http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa95.html


----------



## mayweb

First of all this thread is priceless. I had researched doing this way back when but never found the time. Since AT9s are getting in short supply, has anybody looked at what it might take to do this with the newer generation Slimline AU9? Or should I just look for fire sales on AT9s to get around my trees? (I need seperate 110 and 119)


----------



## litzdog911

mayweb said:


> First of all this thread is priceless. I had researched doing this way back when but never found the time. Since AT9s are getting in short supply, has anybody looked at what it might take to do this with the newer generation Slimline AU9? Or should I just look for fire sales on AT9s to get around my trees? (I need seperate 110 and 119)


I can't think of any way to combine together two Slimline dishes because the LNBs are combined into one housing. You should be able to find original AT9 dishes still via eBay, SolidSignal, etc.


----------



## Hamese

I am in the process of trying to combine a 110 signal from a single 18" dish and the SatC kit with the Slimline dish/signals. I get everything but the 110 (119 is fine) and at first I thought it was the LNB, but now it could be the trees... not sure.

I have the second dish aimed and I plan on doing some experimenting, but I think the long run will have me taking apart the slimline lnb unit to add in my own 110 signal before the built in multiswitch. That should work, but the question is whether or not I can successfully get into the LNB unit, so this is the last resort.

My question is why would I not be able to run my 110 signal to the 95 or 72 input on the multiswitch and configure my recieve to use the extra sat?


----------



## Hamese

SO FAR I HAVE IT WORKING!

I was able to combine a single 18" dish with the SatC kit into a setup with the Slimline. I pointed my single dish to the 110W sat and used the combiner included in the kit to add the 110W signal to the 6x8 multiplexer. To do that I had to combine it with one of the four lines coming from the builtin multiplexer on the slimline. Then I took the output of the combiner and placed on the third input on the 6x8. The third input is the 18v 22KHz which is the only thing that the combiner passes anyway.

I hooked up my H20 and started to pick up the 110, which has been the only thing missing. I now am recieving all the HD programming, and my locals that are broadcast from the 103.

I'll post if anything isn't right, but I think it is all good... I would post a pic/drawing, but I do not have enough posts yet, lol, I will have to post after I reach 5 posts.


----------



## Hamese

I made the post count, so here is the picture. I tried to "edit" the last post so I wouldn't have multiples. However, I was not able to attach the files under the edit window.


----------



## litzdog911

Hamese said:


> SO FAR I HAVE IT WORKING!
> 
> I was able to combine a single 18" dish with the SatC kit into a setup with the Slimline. I pointed my single dish to the 110W sat and used the combiner included in the kit to add the 110W signal to the 6x8 multiplexer. To do that I had to combine it with one of the four lines coming from the builtin multiplexer on the slimline. Then I took the output of the combiner and placed on the third input on the 6x8. The third input is the 18v 22KHz which is the only thing that the combiner passes anyway.
> 
> I hooked up my H20 and started to pick up the 110, which has been the only thing missing. I now am recieving all the HD programming, and my locals that are broadcast from the 103.
> 
> I'll post if anything isn't right, but I think it is all good... I would post a pic/drawing, but I do not have enough posts yet, lol, I will have to post after I reach 5 posts.


Very interesting! Yes, please post your wiring diagram. Verify also that your H20 sees transponders on both the 99 and 103-deg satellites.


----------



## Hamese

I cannot, that I know of, see if I am picking up anything from 99. I do not recieve any programing from that sat and because of the software glitch all the transponders say n/a, yet I pass OK on the setup.

As for the 103, I am still recieving singals on the transponders, and the 103 is where my local HD's come from.

I went through my dish setup again and at the part where it test the signals and gives an Ok or Failed... I have some fail; however, I was having them fail before this process too, so I beleive that is because I aligned/tweaked the dish and not an installer.

I pass the 101, 119, 110, 99(11)

I fail and always have failed the 99(10), 103(14), 103(15). What is strange is that the 103(14) shows signals on all the transponders but the third one, and the strength averages about 78. I dont know why I fail that one. The 103(15) shoes all n/a so I dont know about it.

With all that said... my signals are all the same with the addition of the 110 signal from the seperate dish. The diagram is attached to the last post on pg5.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

litzdog911 said:


> This is what I'm hoping will work to combine my existing 110-deg SatC and 119-deg SatB dishes with a new AT9 dish ....
> 
> http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog911/AT9 Dish Combo 1.jpg
> http://members.roadfly.com/litzdog911/AT9 Dish Combo 2.jpg


WOW, very cool.


----------



## doctor j

Litzdog 911
Saw that thread was bumped and wondered if you had worked on the slimline with other older dishes to combine signals.

Last fall we left it as impractical with the AT-9 due to "different" voltage /signal from side arm lnb. As you recall I did have success with 2 separate Cal-Amp AT-9's (regular f connectors). I believe that the solution above will still "leave out" 1 set of the KA signals and that could be ok now with locals only using 1 of 8 available KA bands but will be a problem when more / all are used with D10 & D11.

It did come to mind however that with polarity lockers and a zinwell multiswitch that multiple dishes (AU-9) would work, but don't conceptualized how 3 can function. Still a problem combining 110 and 119 from separate dishes with the KA bands as well.

Any thoughts??

Doctor j


----------



## P Smith

Do we have the DC voltage measured on those two inputs at side of triple part of AT-9 and other type of AT-9 ?


----------



## RobertE

I haven't had the time or need to try but this *should* work.

Take the four (eight) lines from each dish and run them into power passing spitters.
Now down to four lines.
Four lines to power locker
*Recommend* a power locker here
Four lines from power locker to MS

If dish 1 doesn't see the 119, but dish 2 does, you should get a picture, etc.

Again, it should work. Anyone see why it wouldn't?


----------



## veryoldschool

RobertE said:


> I haven't had the time or need to try but this *should* work.
> Take the four (eight) lines from each dish and run them into power passing splitters.
> Again, it should work. Anyone see why it wouldn't?


After some testing by Carl6, there is "just one problem": the power passing splitters are directional...so they won't work as combiners.
The theory is good but the parts aren't available in the market.
As they say...bummer.


----------



## litzdog911

See additional multidish connection test information here, currently underway by Carl6 and others. 
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87143

Hopefully Carl will post his results and diagrams back here.


----------



## carl6

I just posted to the other thread, and I'll post my results here also.

I tried a couple of different ways to mix the signals for 119 from an AU9 (with the 119 LNB covered) and a separate round 18" dish aimed at 119.

The first attempt was simply using broad band high frequency dual port power passing splitters connecting the two lines from the round dish, and the applicable two lines from the AU9 to the splitters in the hope of using the splitters as combiners. That did not work. Not only did I not have 119, but I also lost 110 from the AU9. The problem is the splitters are just that, splitters. They are not also combiners. They only pass DC in one direction, so the LNB's were not getting DC voltage in this hookup.

So the next thing I did was used a combination of six splitters total wired up so that I was inserting the correct 13 and 18 V DC (with 22KHz) after the "backwards" splitters (being used as combiners). This did result in providing the proper voltage and tone to both dishes. The result: I regained the 110 transponders (the LNB was now properly powered), but I still did not have 119. It appears the 119 LNB in the AU9 is still sending signal out (a "no signal" signal) that is interfering with the valid signals from the round dish, and the result is the receiver is not seeing anything.

I am unable to find a way to combine a round dish with an AU9 to pick up either 110 or 119 without doing some kind of electronic surgery on the AU9 to disconnect the applicable LNB internally (circuit board level modifications needed to do this). I'm not willing to sacrifice my AU9 LNB assembly to experiment.

Carl


----------



## litzdog911

carl6 said:


> I just posted to the other thread, and I'll post my results here also.
> 
> I tried a couple of different ways to mix the signals for 119 from an AU9 (with the 119 LNB covered) and a separate round 18" dish aimed at 119.
> 
> The first attempt was simply using broad band high frequency dual port power passing splitters connecting the two lines from the round dish, and the applicable two lines from the AU9 to the splitters in the hope of using the splitters as combiners. That did not work. Not only did I not have 119, but I also lost 110 from the AU9. The problem is the splitters are just that, splitters. They are not also combiners. They only pass DC in one direction, so the LNB's were not getting DC voltage in this hookup.
> 
> So the next thing I did was used a combination of six splitters total wired up so that I was inserting the correct 13 and 18 V DC (with 22KHz) after the "backwards" splitters (being used as combiners). This did result in providing the proper voltage and tone to both dishes. The result: I regained the 110 transponders (the LNB was now properly powered), but I still did not have 119. It appears the 119 LNB in the AU9 is still sending signal out (a "no signal" signal) that is interfering with the valid signals from the round dish, and the result is the receiver is not seeing anything.
> 
> I am unable to find a way to combine a round dish with an AU9 to pick up either 110 or 119 without doing some kind of electronic surgery on the AU9 to disconnect the applicable LNB internally (circuit board level modifications needed to do this). I'm not willing to sacrifice my AU9 LNB assembly to experiment.
> 
> Carl


Thanks for trying, Carl.

So, to summarize, it looks the best (only?) way to site two dishes for all 5 satellites is to combine two AT9 5-LNB dishes .... one aimed for the 99/101/103 satellites, the other aimed for 110/119. Diagrams for this are provided earlier in this thread.


----------



## natebg

Anybody know where (simple online purchase preferred) I can buy 2 AT9 dishes from Andrews or Calamp that have the F type connector between the LNBs?

Thanks,


----------



## litzdog911

natebg said:


> Anybody know where (simple online purchase preferred) I can buy 2 AT9 dishes from Andrews or Calamp that have the F type connector between the LNBs?
> 
> Thanks,


Check with Solid Signal (http://www.solidsignal.com). Hopefully they can tell you which "flavor" of AT9 dish they have so you can get the F-type connectors.


----------



## natebg

Looks like the AT9s are discontinued and out of stock at solidsignal.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

natebg said:


> Anybody know where (simple online purchase preferred) I can buy 2 AT9 dishes from Andrews or Calamp that have the F type connector between the LNBs?
> 
> Thanks,


NEWEGG has the AT9 dish.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882250001


----------



## bret4

BMoreRavens said:


> NEWEGG has the AT9 dish.
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882250001


You can get them on ebay too.

I used my old round single LNB dish with the 110/119 LNB from my AT9 mounted to it. Just did this today so I am still testing it. So far it works fine. Got around 90% signal on most transponders. As high as 95% on some. Had to do a lot of adjusting of the dish to get it just right. Mounted the dish on an angle to match the same angle that the AT9 dishes LNB's are mounted at to get the 110 and 119 sats.

Did all the adjustments while watching the signal meters on my TV. Was able to see the TV with it in a window from the place the dish is mounted. I think it would be a good idea to mount the second round dish on a surface that is in the same plane as the AT9. Like mounted to the same side of a house. This should make easier to set the angle of the LNB's close to the same as on the AT9.

All it really took to mount the AT9 LNB's on the Round dish was to cut up the old round dish LNB to make a mount out of it. Drilled two holes in it the same spacing as the holes in the AT9 mounting hole spacing and bolt it together. I can take some pictures to post if this interest anyone.


----------



## veryoldschool

bret4 said:


> You can get them on ebay too.
> 
> I used my old round single LNB dish with the 110/119 LNB from my AT9 mounted to it. Just did this today so I am still testing it. So far it works fine. Got around 90% signal on most transponders. As high as 95% on some. Had to do a lot of adjusting of the dish to get it just right. Mounted the dish on an angle to match the same angle that the AT9 dishes LNB's are mounted at to get the 110 and 119 sats.
> 
> Did all the adjustments while watching the signal meters on my TV. Was able to see the TV with it in a window from the place the dish is mounted. I think it would be a good idea to mount the second round dish on a surface that is in the same plane as the AT9. Like mounted to the same side of a house. This should make easier to set the angle of the LNB's close to the same as on the AT9.
> 
> All it really took to mount the AT9 LNB's on the Round dish was to cut up the old round dish LNB to make a mount out of it. Drilled two holes in it the same spacing as the holes in the AT9 mounting hole spacing and bolt it together. I can take some pictures to post if this interest anyone.


What connectors do you have on the LNBs? 
It sounds like the are F-type and not what mine are SMB.


----------



## bret4

veryoldschool said:


> What connectors do you have on the LNBs?
> It sounds like the are F-type and not what mine are SMB.


Yes they are F-type connectors on my AT9 dish. I was able to use RG6 to make the connections. I guess you would have to make up your own cables if you can't buy them. Unless someone makes adaptors from F-type to SMB.


----------



## veryoldschool

bret4 said:


> Yes they are F-type connectors on my AT9 dish. I was able to use RG6 to make the connections. I guess you would have to make up your own cables if you can't buy them. Unless someone makes adaptors from F-type to SMB.


You have the "mystery AT9 dish". 
Can you give any more info on who made it?
There are many makers of the obsolete dish.
I know that they have been used in Hawaii as they need two AT9 dishes to get the SAT spread from that far west.


----------



## litzdog911

bret4 said:


> You can get them on ebay too.
> 
> I used my old round single LNB dish with the 110/119 LNB from my AT9 mounted to it. Just did this today so I am still testing it. So far it works fine. Got around 90% signal on most transponders. As high as 95% on some. Had to do a lot of adjusting of the dish to get it just right. Mounted the dish on an angle to match the same angle that the AT9 dishes LNB's are mounted at to get the 110 and 119 sats.
> 
> Did all the adjustments while watching the signal meters on my TV. Was able to see the TV with it in a window from the place the dish is mounted. I think it would be a good idea to mount the second round dish on a surface that is in the same plane as the AT9. Like mounted to the same side of a house. This should make easier to set the angle of the LNB's close to the same as on the AT9.
> 
> All it really took to mount the AT9 LNB's on the Round dish was to cut up the old round dish LNB to make a mount out of it. Drilled two holes in it the same spacing as the holes in the AT9 mounting hole spacing and bolt it together. I can take some pictures to post if this interest anyone.


That's pretty cool. Please post photos and dimensions! I'm surprised you could get the geometry to work properly since you need two focal points for that dish to "see" both the 110 and 119-deg satellites.


----------



## bret4

I'll get more info on the dish and post photos and dimensions later today when I get home from work.


----------



## bret4

My AT9 dish says CAL AMP on it. That must be who made it.

Here are some pictures of my setup.

First and second pictures show the mounted dish with the AT9.

3rd picture shows gives you and idea of how I cut up the old LNB on the small dish to make the mount for the 110/119 LNB's from the AT9.

The 4th and 5th picture is the 110/119 LNB mounted on the small round dish.

Last picture show the AT9 without the 110/119.

I used two 25 foot RG6 cables with F-type connectors to entend the cables to the 110/119 LNB on the small dish.

You'll notice that the small dish is on the same angle as the large AT9 dish. I checked it with a angle gauge after I had the best signal and it was on about a 23' angle. That is the same as my AT9. Of course that would change for other locations. You would have to match the angle of your AT9 for your location.


----------



## bret4

Here is an update on my small dish testing.

It works but I think the small size of the dish is causing some pixelation on the 119 sat. It may not be collecting enough of the signals on all transponders to keep the signal up to full power at all times. I notice that some of the transponders on the 119 sat change signal strength a little. Some do not. I get as high as 96% on some transponders. That is a solid signal. Others go from 86% to 89% up and down. 

I am going to try and adjust the dish to bring these signals in a little stronger and see what happens. At this point I would try this same setup with a 3 LNB dish. I'm sure that would work in my location. Of course getting another AT9 would be the best and easiest thing to do.

At least this shows that modding other dishes can work to some degree. I'm betting using a 3 LNB dish would work perfect with the AT9 110/119 LNB mounted to it. Now I'd like to find one of the oval 3 LNB dishes and give it a try.


----------



## veryoldschool

bret4 said:


> Here is an update on my small dish testing.
> 
> It works but I think the small size of the dish is causing some pixelation on the 119 sat. It may not be collecting enough of the signals on all transponders to keep the signal up to full power at all times. I notice that some of the transponders on the 119 sat change signal strength a little. Some do not. I get as high as 96% on some transponders. That is a solid signal. Others go from 86% to 89% up and down.
> 
> I am going to try and adjust the dish to bring these signals in a little stronger and see what happens. At this point I would try this same setup with a 3 LNB dish. I'm sure that would work in my location. Of course getting another AT9 would be the best and easiest thing to do.
> 
> At least this shows that modding other dishes can work to some degree. I'm betting using a 3 LNB dish would work perfect with the AT9 110/119 LNB mounted to it. Now I'd like to find one of the oval 3 LNB dishes and give it a try.


I think the "secret" is the AT-9 with F-type connectors for the 110/119 LNBs.
Do you know who made it?
Also I think you could use the older LNBs & dish [round with C SAT upgrade] as what you've got will let these connect to your AT9 "in-front of" its multi-switch.


----------



## CCarncross

If the lowest you are getting is 86-89, then its not a dish alignment problem although it really should not vary by more than a point or two unless you have obstructions still or weather is moving in.. It takes signals dropping into the 50s or below to actually start causing pixellation and eventual loss of signal.


----------



## bret4

veryoldschool said:


> I think the "secret" is the AT-9 with F-type connectors for the 110/119 LNBs.
> Do you know who made it?
> Also I think you could use the older LNBs & dish [round with C SAT upgrade] as what you've got will let these connect to your AT9 "in-front of" its multi-switch.


I think your right about the AT9.

The dish says CAL AMP on it. Have been looking on ebay for one but don't see any that have LNB's that look like my dish. I would have to mount my 110/119 LNB's on it. Shouldn't be much of a problem.


----------



## bret4

CCarncross said:


> If the lowest you are getting is 86-89, then its not a dish alignment problem although it really should not vary by more than a point or two unless you have obstructions still or weather is moving in.. It takes signals dropping into the 50s or below to actually start causing pixellation and eventual loss of signal.


Your right that those signals should be good enough. I think something else is going on. Thinking that some of the signal is hitting the edge of the dish and not all of it is making it into the LNB for 119. When I try to re-adjust the dish to favor the 119 sat I'll know more. If I still can't get a good picture without pixelation then I'll have to agree with you on maybe moving the dish a little more to get a clear shot at the sat.


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## veryoldschool

I think you could use the phase II + components to mix with your AT9
Here's a link: http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/directv_dish_antenna_types.asp


----------



## bret4

veryoldschool said:


> I think you could use the phase II + components to mix with your AT9
> Here's a link: http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/directv_dish_antenna_types.asp


That's an interesting design. They don't seem to have any for sale. The Phase III I could mount my AT9 parts on it. They have those for sale.

For now I did get a chance to adjust my dish again. So far no more pixelation on the 119 sat channels. I had to drop the signal on the 110 a bit lower to get it to work. All channels on the 110 sat seem to be working fine for now. I would think they would be the first ones to drop out with a heavy rain storm.

With this last adjustment it seems that the small round dish is just a little small to collect enough signal on the two sats at the same time. One or the other has to suffer a bit for this to work. What I may try is re-drill 4 holes in my Phase I dish so I can mount it 90' from the way it is mounted now. The Phase I dish is about the same size as the Phase III dish, only it is mounted with the narrow side right to left and the wide side up and down. Turning it 90' would give me about the same thing as the Phase III dish. Should be easy enough to drill 4 new holes to try it out.

It's fun to try things like this out.


----------



## jal1975

bret4 said:


> It's fun to try things like this out.


And makes for interesting reading here!:grin:


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## bret4

I tried to rotate the small dish as I said I would in my last post. It didn't seem to work any better. I get some pixelation on Discovery HD. I'm going to go and buy an AT9. Don't know if it will be a slimline or one like I have now. EDIT: ordered an AT9 like my AT9 but with the SMB connectors on the LNB's. I'll use my AT9's 110/119 LNBs with the F-type connectors on the new dish.

I also tuned up my AT9. It turns out that the installer didn't tighten up all the screws. I have a little better signal on the 99,101 and 103 sats now.


----------



## bret4

Just an update on my small dish coversion to get the 110 and 119 sats. It is working great right now. I ordered another dish as I posted before and don't want to put it up because the little dish is working fine right now. 

Now the big problem is pixelation and audio drops on a lot of my SD channels. Sometimes it is so bad I have to just turn it off and wait until latter to watch TV. A lot of people are reporting this problem on the group. Seems like it could have something to do with the HR20 or the Sat signal. 

Funny thing is that this is the same problem I used to have on the small dish on the HD channels. Now that that is gone it is on the big dish on the SD programs. The HD channels on the Big dish seem fine.

I also lost all my OTA channels. That could be related or it could be the leaves lowered the signal enough that the HR20 can't get them. The TV gets them on it's tunner. Not perfect but they come in.

I also had lightning hit a oak tree in my yard. Had the Audio drops and pixelation before that on the SD sat channels. Lost the OTA after the lightning. Maybe my HR20 is going bad. The antenna is in the attic. The sat antennas are closer to the tree.


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## jganson

Interesting and informative thread. Maybe some of you can weigh in on my situation:

My view of the satellites is over a large stand of tall cedar trees. I self-installed the 3-lnb dish a few years ago and for awhile received 101, 110 and 119. 119 became weak and eventually dropped off altogether, and I have not been able to get it back, I'm sure due to trees. I have a bigger "window" above/between some trees for 101 and 110, so they have been solid.

A few months ago I had DTV come out to install the 5-lnb dish. They guy took a quick look around and said it was a no-go. I dropped it for a few months but came back recently and saw this thread. The idea of using two AT9s to pick up all of the birds is intriguing, though I'm not sure I'll find a location to pick up both 110 and 119. The other issue is that I can't seem to find any Cal Amp AT9s online. I've found others, but they appear to have the non-standard connectors between the 110/119 LNBs and the 99/101/103 LNBs. Has anyone made one of these non-Cal Amp units work, perhaps by splicing regular RG-6 cable into the cables supplied with the AT9? 

My other thought is that I can more readily get a Slimline dish, and for less money. I'm relatively confident that from my existing dish position I should be able to pick up 101, 103 and 110 (and probably 99) - but won't be able to pick up 119. Does that matter much? I know 119 currently carries HDNet, ESPN2 and DiscoveryHD, but I've limped along without those so far. I'm more concerned about the "100" new national HD channels Directv is promising will come online by the end of this year. My understanding is that those will be on 103. If so, then not getting 119 should not be that big of a deal, should it? (I'm 35 miles outside of Seattle but get the local HD channels OTA just fine, so I don't care too much about LIL HD.) 

Any thoughts are much appreciated.


----------



## bjs188

jganson said:


> Has anyone made one of these non-Cal Amp units work, perhaps by splicing regular RG-6 cable into the cables supplied with the AT9?
> 
> Any thoughts are much appreciated.


I am using two WNC AT9 dishes and have connected them with F-Jack to SMB adapters that I found at www.myradiostore.com.

At this time, I don't receive any programming from the KA slots, I do get everything from 119 and 110 dish and everything from the 101 dish without any problems. It actually has helped to get a better signal on the 119/110 dish because I can peak it without worrying about 101/103/99. I do get a good signal off of two transponders on 99 and a low reading off of one transponder at 103. About the same readings that someone else in my area gets using a professionally installed 5 lnb dish.

My hope is that they duplicate all the HD from 110 and 119 on the new sat so I can get rid of the second dish. My SD locals do come from 119 but since I get everything in HD OTA I would not mind losing them.

I got two opened-box WNC AT9 dishes on eBay for about $135 with shipping.


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## doctor j

See this thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=94585&page=2

Any AT-9 dish combined with 2 round dishes and a sat c kit combined as per Litzdog911 's diagram will work.

Doctor j


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## ampman337

I think I'm suffering from info overload from reading all of this. I'm not sure if I read it along the way but, Is it possible to do this with 2 slimline dishes?
I have D* coming out Friday For an install. I currently have an 18" dish pointing at 101 since 1997 and have not tried to upgrade before because of trees.
But I think this solution may work for me. (If the installer says it can't be done) I think I could get 99,101,103 with one dish and 110 and 119 with the other. The slimlines are easier to comeby thats why I ask.


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## doctor j

Short answer is NO.

2 solutions are ;

1) 2 AT-9 dishes preferrably Cal-Amp with side arm wires connected with regular F connectors. Adapters for winstrom connectors have been used but are more difficult to find. (I believe 3 AT-9 dishes could be used with single side arm connectors from 110 & 119.)

2) AT-9 dish w/o side arm LNB's and 2 single round dishes aimed at 110 & 119 connected with sat C kit and splitters/combiners as in litzdog911's diagram in above referenced thread.

None of these will likely be attempted by an installer. These are likely DIY projects only.

Doctor j


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## bret4

That's right on the DIY project. I just had the LNB go bad on my AT9 and the D* installers that I had out only had Slimline dish to replace it with. They had to mount it on a pole in my back yard to get it to work. 

The good news is that they told me that because I had no other place to mount a dish to get a signal that they would do the pole mount for free.

If you do not care about the programing on the 119 sat I would see if you can just use a slimline dish. Like you said. So many more channels are going to be on the new sats in the 103 and 99 slots soon that it may not matter much. Some people on other parts of this forum have said that they may move some of the programing from the 110 and 119 to the new sat's anyway. If that turns out to be true then 110 and 119 may not matter much if you don't get or miss any local channels from them.


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## jmh139

This is what I planned to do, but got an answer I did not expect when I posted about it yesterday:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1078388

According to litzdog911, Directv will provide the guide data for the new satellite on the 119 sat, which would cause possible loss of guide data for anyone not able to see it. With all the trees I have, I doubt I could even put another dish up and see it. My main dish (3 LNB) sees 101 and 110 now. The 119 sat is low here on the east coast.



jganson said:


> My other thought is that I can more readily get a Slimline dish, and for less money. I'm relatively confident that from my existing dish position I should be able to pick up 101, 103 and 110 (and probably 99) - but won't be able to pick up 119. Does that matter much? I know 119 currently carries HDNet, ESPN2 and DiscoveryHD, but I've limped along without those so far. I'm more concerned about the "100" new national HD channels Directv is promising will come online by the end of this year. My understanding is that those will be on 103. If so, then not getting 119 should not be that big of a deal, should it? (I'm 35 miles outside of Seattle but get the local HD channels OTA just fine, so I don't care too much about LIL HD.)
> 
> Any thoughts are much appreciated.


----------



## litzdog911

*Well, actually FIVE schemes! ...*

So far we have five verified connection schemes to combine multiple dishes at different locations to receive signals from all DirecTV satellites through trees and other obstructions ....

1. Use two AT9 dishes, one sited to receive 99/101/103-deg W and the other sited to receive 110/119-deg W and described in more detail earlier in this thread:









2. Use one AT9 dish without the "sidecar" LNB sited to receive 99/101/103-deg W and two 18" round dishes to receive 110 and 119-deg W, with the 110-deg W dish using the special "Sat C Kit" LNB and combiner:









3. Use one AT9 dish without the "sidecar" LNB sited to receive 99/101/103-deg W and one Phase III multisatellite dish to receive 110 and 119-deg W:









4. Modify a SlimLine LNB assembly to disconnect the 110 & 119-deg LNBs, then combine with two round dishes or a Phase III dish as described in 2 and 3 above. See Carl's post with modification instructions and photos here ....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1322936&postcount=275

5. Use the 99/101/103 dish designed for Alaska/Hawaii combined with dishes for 110 & 119 as described in doctorj's post here ....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1350332&postcount=327


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## jmh139

Two dishes are just not an option for me with the treeline I have, I am hitting 101 and 110 through holes in the trees with one dish . I play to use the sun today (from your link) to find where the 119 Sat is at, but I think it is just way to low to ever hit. 

I cannot understand why they would put guide data on the 119 sat instead of the 101 sat. There has to be a lot of people on the east coast that cannot hit 119 since it is so low.


----------



## litzdog911

jmh139 said:


> ....
> 
> I cannot understand why they would put guide data on the 119 sat instead of the 101 sat. There has to be a lot of people on the east coast that cannot hit 119 since it is so low.


I think it has to do with the fact that the 103, 110 and 119-deg satellites are "switched" together by the Receiver/multiswitch's 22kHz switching tone. Likewise the 99 & 101-deg satellites are together.


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## jmh139

I posted this in another thread, but thought I would post it here also:

On the other hand, by reading your reply and another thread about the guide info, it seems I could just set up a repeat recording at night to record a big block (4 - 8 hours enough?) of sd content on the 101 sat and that should keep my guide fresh?

I will miss the couple of channels on 119, but with my hd locals on 103 and all the new content, I think I will be alright 

Thanks for your help.


----------



## litzdog911

jmh139 said:


> I posted this in another thread, but thought I would post it here also:
> 
> On the other hand, by reading your reply and another thread about the guide info, it seems I could just set up a repeat recording at night to record a big block (4 - 8 hours enough?) of sd content on the 101 sat and that should keep my guide fresh?
> 
> I will miss the couple of channels on 119, but with my hd locals on 103 and all the new content, I think I will be alright
> 
> Thanks for your help.


Yes, that should work. Folks with regular HD Receivers (H20 or H21) can set an Autotune for early every morning to a channel not beamed from 103-deg W to accomplish the same thing.


----------



## georgegmd

Question - In the setup verified by Dr. J, ( 3 seperate dishes) is the sidecar LNB plugged in to the 99/101/103 LNB or left unplugged?

Thanks is advance for the great work.


----------



## veryoldschool

georgegmd said:


> Question - In the setup verified by Dr. J, ( 3 seperate dishes) is the sidecar LNB plugged in to the 99/101/103 LNB or left unplugged?
> 
> Thanks is advance for the great work.


Left unplugged for best performance


----------



## jbraden

litzdog911 said:


> So far we have two verified connection schemes to combine multiple dishes at different locations to receive signals from all DirecTV satellites through trees and other obstructions ....
> 
> 2. Use one AT9 dish without the "sidecar" LNB dish sited to receive 99/101/103-deg W and two 18" round dishes to receive 110 and 119-deg W, with the 110-deg W dish using the special "Sat C Kit" LNB and combiner:


Thank you litzdog! I do have a couple questions about the second solution here... I currently receive the 110 & 119 satellite through a 3 LNB dish and the 101 through a separate old round dish. From the configuration in #2, it looks like I may be able to use my existing 3 LNB dish in place of the two round dishes you show for 110 & 119, and just get an AT9 to replace the round dish aimed at 101. Will that work? Second, I checked out the specs on the Channel Vision HS-2, and it says it is a 1GHz splitter/combiner. That doesn't sound right for these frequencies. Sonora says splitters must be rated to 2.3GHz, and that makes sense since the Ka-Hi band goes to 2150MHz (2.15GHz). The Holland Electronics HRS-2P Wideband Splitter is rated for frequencies from 15MHz to 2150MHz and sounds like a better choice. As doctor j notes in a follow-up to this post, make sure it's -2P (power passing in both directions), and not -2D (power passing only from out to in). These are available from techtoolsupply.com for $2.49 each. Was the Channel Vision HS-2 really able to pass the Ka-Hi band signals successfully? Finally, it looks like everyone who used to sell AT9's has discontinued them and switched to AU9's (slimline). Has anybody been able to find a reliable source for the old style dishes, or is eBay now the only option?


----------



## Bill Broderick

I may have access to a used AT9 dish. Can someone please tell me if and where the dishes are labeled with the manufacturer. I want the current owner to check if the dish is a Cal-amp, Andrews or WNC.


----------



## jbraden

Bill Broderick said:


> I may have access to a used AT9 dish. Can someone please tell me if and where the dishes are labeled with the manufacturer. I want the current owner to check if the dish is a Cal-amp, Andrews or WNC.


I know that both the Cal-amp and Andrews dishes have the full size coax F connectors on the sidecar and main LNB assemblies. As I understand it the WNC has mini connectors like the Sirius satellite connections. Both the Cal-amp and Andrews dishes would work for the scheme that litzdog911 describes in this thread.


----------



## Bill Broderick

I know about that part. However, I don't think that the person that I would be getting this from would have any idea what I'm talking about if I asked him to detemine what type of connectors are on the dish (and I can't go check it out myself).

So, I'm looking for an easy way for him to determine what type of dish he has.


----------



## bret4

Bill Broderick said:


> I may have access to a used AT9 dish. Can someone please tell me if and where the dishes are labeled with the manufacturer. I want the current owner to check if the dish is a Cal-amp, Andrews or WNC.


Cal-amp should be stamped on the dish. It should also be on the LNB's.

The WNC would have WNC on the LNB's. Not sure if it is stamped into the dish. Most likely is.


----------



## Bill Broderick

It turns out that it's a WNC. Not my first choice. But beggers can't be choosers. I can just order the appropriate adapters from myradiostore.

It appears that I can everything but 119 from the primary location. I already have a second dish receiving 119. I'm hoping that I can go with a two dish methodology, utilizing 99, 101, 103 & 110 from the AT9 and 119 from the round dish. But I don't know what the proper methodology would be for this. Do I just convert one of the cables coming out of the 110/119 LNB assembly into an RG-6 cable (utilizing the F-Jack to SMB-Plug adapter) and then do everything else as if I were using 3 dishes as shown in Dr J's diagram above?

Or do I really need to utilize 3 dishes if I don't have a single location where I can receive both 110 & 119?


----------



## litzdog911

Bill Broderick said:


> It turns out that it's a WNC. Not my first choice. But beggers can't be choosers. I can just order the appropriate adapters from myradiostore.
> 
> It appears that I can everything but 119 from the primary location. I already have a second dish receiving 119. I'm hoping that I can go with a two dish methodology, utilizing 99, 101, 103 & 110 from the AT9 and 119 from the round dish. But I don't know what the proper methodology would be for this. Do I just convert one of the cables coming out of the 110/119 LNB assembly into an RG-6 cable (utilizing the F-Jack to SMB-Plug adapter) and then do everything else as if I were using 3 dishes as shown in Dr J's diagram above?
> 
> Or do I really need to utilize 3 dishes if I don't have a single location where I can receive both 110 & 119?


Review the information in this thread in my post here on 9/1/07. These are the only two configurations known to work. You cannot combine just a 119-deg dish with an existing AT9 due to the way that the 110+119-deg signals are combined. You need either two AT9's, or one AT9 plus two single LNB dishes for 110+119.


----------



## Ext 721

bobnielsen said:


> There appear to be two problems doing that.
> 
> 1. Your current multiswitch may not pass the 250-750 and/or 1650-2150 outputs of the Ka LNBs. That could be easily rectified with a WB68 but:
> 
> 2. As Litzdog911 found out, the 103 LNB also uses the 22 kHz signal. When the 22 kHz signal is missing 99 is output in addition to 101 (remember these are different frequencies so they won't interfere). Likewise, 103 is ouput in addition to 110/119 when the tone is present).
> 
> There may be a way to make it work with three dishes but it would require modifying the 110/119 interconnection circuitry to have separate inputs, which is probably achievable, but not an easy task. It's unfortunate that the 13/18 volt polarization switching scheme wasn't carried through to the new 110/119 LNBs. Hopefully one of the dish manufacturers will come up with a practical solution allowing three separate dishes.
> 
> Of course there is also the "chainsaw" solution


Here's a potential "doh" moment...

Is the H-20 "smart" enough to accept a combined 110/119 even on flexport 1, and a 119 odd on flexport 2?

I think it might be, since a d-11 can use either a 110/119 sat or a 72 sat on the 22khz ports of a 4x8 and "know" the difference, or use a 72.5/95 and "know" the difference via autodetect.

Here's the kicker.....if it isn't programmed to know the difference....

it CAN be, via software update.


----------



## jbraden

litzdog911 said:


> Review the information in this thread in my post here on 9/1/07. These are the only two configurations known to work. You cannot combine just a 119-deg dish with an existing AT9 due to the way that the 110+119-deg signals are combined. You need either two AT9's, or one AT9 plus two single LNB dishes for 110+119.


I'd really like an opinion on the 2 dish solution I proposed earlier. Is there a reason it shouldn't work? Am I going to have to build it to find out? Thanks!


----------



## doctor j

jbraden said:


> I'd really like an opinion on the 2 dish solution I proposed earlier. Is there a reason it shouldn't work? Am I going to have to build it to find out? Thanks!


I did not try a 3 LNB but the concern is that a carrier frequency from the built in multiswitch nulls the combination signals and poor reception is the result. This is certainly true in the AT-9 and AU-9 dish multiswitches.
The only way to know for certain is to build it and SEE.

The holland hi-freq splitter may work but my experience with at least 2 other brands of quality high freq splitters is than they would NOT work as combiners. ie; signal would not pass 2 side to 1 ,only 1 in to 2 out.

Good Luck and please report your results.

Doctod j


----------



## Bill Broderick

litzdog911 said:


> You need either two AT9's, or one AT9 plus two single LNB dishes for 110+119.


OK, thanks. Currently, I have one 3 LNB (which is really the Phase 2, 2 LNB dish, with a Sat C kit installed, so there is no built-in multi-switch) dish receiving Sats A & C (101 & 110) and a round dish receiving Sat B (119). A Sat C combiner is located in my basement at the existing multi-switch.

Based on the diagram, it appears that I should be able to continue to use these two dishes to continue to receive Sats B & C and install an AT9 for 99, 101 & 103, then utilize the Combiners and Power Inserter from the diagram, before hitting the multi-switch.

Does that make sense? Is there any issue using the old dish, that had the Sat C kit installed for Sat C?


----------



## litzdog911

Bill Broderick said:


> OK, thanks. Currently, I have one 3 LNB (which is really the Phase 2, 2 LNB dish, with a Sat C kit installed, so there is no built-in multi-switch) dish receiving Sats A & C (101 & 110) and a round dish receiving Sat B (119). A Sat C combiner is located in my basement at the existing multi-switch.
> 
> Based on the diagram, it appears that I should be able to continue to use these two dishes to continue to receive Sats B & C and install an AT9 for 99, 101 & 103, then utilize the Combiners and Power Inserter from the diagram, before hitting the multi-switch.
> 
> Does that make sense? Is there any issue using the old dish, that had the Sat C kit installed for Sat C?


This should work. The 2-LNB "Phase II" dish will receive SatC (110-deg W) with your round dish receiving SatB (119-deg W) using the SatC Combiner.


----------



## litzdog911

Ext 721 said:


> Here's a potential "doh" moment...
> 
> Is the H-20 "smart" enough to accept a combined 110/119 even on flexport 1, and a 119 odd on flexport 2?
> 
> I think it might be, since a d-11 can use either a 110/119 sat or a 72 sat on the 22khz ports of a 4x8 and "know" the difference, or use a 72.5/95 and "know" the difference via autodetect.
> 
> Here's the kicker.....if it isn't programmed to know the difference....
> 
> it CAN be, via software update.


Read earlier in this thread where I tried using the Flexport inputs on my Zinwell WB68. It didn't work.


----------



## dclarke

Finally found the right forum thread here I hope. Litzdog I was reffered to you about the 2 dish setup I sent you my system info. I did leave out the fact that my 110/119 dish is the old oval/elipitcal with the 101 lnb left off, and my new 5lnb is the new slimline one that was "professionally" installed thru directv. I get nothing on the 103 and only 2 feeds come from the 5lnb to the 6x8. All current programming is viewable but I bet that wont be the case without the 103 in the new rollout. I beleive what Im reading that I need to scrap both current dishes and go with 2 at9's (the wife will love that beast living on the roof) If that is the only way to go I will to it. It cant be as bad as digging a trench 60 feet thru the trees to get 110/119. please give me your expert advice as well as where I can buy this older at9 dish? thanks D Clarke


----------



## Bill Broderick

There's someone in Canada, who claims to have 4 of them, selling them in an eBay store for $156.74 (actually, he claims to have 5, but after losing an auction for a used dish, I ordered one from him a little while ago. I'm just waiting to hear from them on the shipping cost).

If you're looking to get two of them, he's already answered a question of someone else who wanted two of them, that the shipping to the NY area would be $70. So, two of them would cost you about $384.

Just do a search in eBay on DirecTV AT9.


----------



## jbraden

Bill Broderick said:
 

> There's someone in Canada, who claims to have 4 of them, selling them in an eBay store for $156.74 (actually, he claims to have 5, but after losing an auction for a used dish, I ordered one from him a little while ago. I'm just waiting to hear from them on the shipping cost).
> 
> If you're looking to get two of them, he's already answered a question of someone else who wanted two of them, that the shipping to the NY area would be $70. So, two of them would cost you about $384.
> 
> Just do a search in eBay on DirecTV AT9.


There's also another person on eBay who appears to have the AT9 dish... the picture, dimensions, and weight match up, but he doesn't specifically say AT9. He is asking a BuyItNow price of $99.99 + $67.00 shipping. Seller is belthazor_1.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Rats. I wish that I had seen that sooner. I could have saved $30 (the shipping of one dish from the other seller, to Long Island was $40.11).

Since he doesn't specifically mention the AT9, before purchasing from belthazor_1, I would recommend contacting him and asking if the dish is in fact the AT9. I've seen some people who have shown a photo of the AT9, but are really selling the Slimline.


----------



## litzdog911

dclarke said:


> Finally found the right forum thread here I hope. Litzdog I was reffered to you about the 2 dish setup I sent you my system info. I did leave out the fact that my 110/119 dish is the old oval/elipitcal with the 101 lnb left off, and my new 5lnb is the new slimline one that was "professionally" installed thru directv. I get nothing on the 103 and only 2 feeds come from the 5lnb to the 6x8. All current programming is viewable but I bet that wont be the case without the 103 in the new rollout. I beleive what Im reading that I need to scrap both current dishes and go with 2 at9's (the wife will love that beast living on the roof) If that is the only way to go I will to it. It cant be as bad as digging a trench 60 feet thru the trees to get 110/119. please give me your expert advice as well as where I can buy this older at9 dish? thanks D Clarke


That's right .... you won't see 103 with this connection scheme. See my posts very early in this thread. I had originally tried combining one 5-LNB dish to receive 99/101/103 with two other dishes aimed for 110 and 119. I think the problem with this scheme is that the switching signal, which is required for 103, 110 and 119, cannot reach the 5-LNB dish with this wiring scheme.

But you can solve that by using the "proven" schemes near the end of this thread. You can combine your 110/119 with a 99/101/103 dish, but you need the power combiners to properly combine ALL FOUR cables from the 5-LNB dish. If you can't find the post I'm refering to, let me know.


----------



## dclarke

thanks Litz I did mention that my 5lnb is the slimline so Im still confused it has 4 ports and none are labeled as to what they correspond with the 6x8, with this in mind will it still work?


----------



## John_NY

Using a standard "powered" 4x8 multiswitch would you be able to Bump the AT9's voltage on the 110/119 side ports up and control the standard LNB's in a dirrerent location ? 


AT9 > 4 lines to WB6x8 

AT9 side ports >to Powered 4x8> then 13/18.22k out to other standard LNB dish in a different location



Would the 4x8 multiswitch act like a power inverter and bump up the voltage? or are they just powered to handle their own switching
AND would the side outputs from the AT9 even be enough to tell the 4x8 to route up the right line


----------



## Bill Broderick

Well, the dish that I ordered off of ebay came and, wouldn't you know it, the guy sent me the Slimline dish, instead of the AT9, which was pictured and specifically mentioned by model number.

I guess it's time to try again.


----------



## litzdog911

Bill Broderick said:


> Well, the dish that I ordered off of ebay came and, wouldn't you know it, the guy sent me the Slimline dish, instead of the AT9, which was pictured and specifically mentioned by model number.
> 
> I guess it's time to try again.


Bummer. SlimLine won't work.


----------



## hiker

I've read through the thread and see the two working methods in post 164.

1. In the second method by doctorj, would it be possible to eliminate the Sonona power inserter and WB68 and use instead a WB616?

2. I have a Phase II+ dish so I can isolate the LNBs. Would it be possible to use one AT9 without sidecar LNBs, and run one line from Phase II+ 119 LNB and one line from Phase II+ 110 LNB to the inputs normally used for sidecar LNBs in the AT9 main LNB MS? I don't think the SatC combiner would be needed and 1 output from the 119 LNB would be left unconnected.


----------



## veryoldschool

hiker said:


> I've read through the thread and see the two working methods in post 164.
> 
> 1. In the second method by doctorj, would it be possible to eliminate the Sonona power inserter and WB68 and use instead a WB616?
> 
> 2. I have a Phase II+ dish so I can isolate the LNBs. Would it be possible to use one AT9 without sidecar LNBs, and run one line from Phase II+ 119 LNB and one line from Phase II+ 110 LNB to the inputs normally used for sidecar LNBs in the AT9 main LNB MS? I don't think the SatC combiner would be needed and 1 output from the 119 LNB would be left unconnected.


Not to steal litzdog911's "thunder":
Yes, you can use the WB616 instead of the Sonora locker & WB68.
The side car LNBs aren't the same as your Phase II+ [so no].


----------



## hiker

Ah, thanks. I'm curious, what's different about the 110 and 119 LNBs, sidecar vs Phase II+?

Also, solid signal does not have the channel vision hs-2 combiners. Where is a good place to buy those?


----------



## veryoldschool

hiker said:


> Ah, thanks. I'm curious, what's different about the 110 and 119 LNBs, sidecar vs Phase II+?


The 110 is the "odd" LNB so it will convert the output to work with the 101/119 LNB.
The sidecar's 110 & 119 LNBs have different voltages since they plug into the main sidecar LNB assembly, where all of the older LNBs are driven with the receiver's 13 or 18 volts.


----------



## Bill Broderick

hiker said:


> Also, solid signal does not have the channel vision hs-2 combiners. Where is a good place to buy those?


I got mine from Smarthome for about $5 apiece.


----------



## litzdog911

hiker said:


> Ah, thanks. I'm curious, what's different about the 110 and 119 LNBs, sidecar vs Phase II+?
> 
> ....


I never could get a detailed schematic or technical explanation. But I know that the old LNBs are not electrically compatible with the AT9 LNB/multiswitch assembly. The power inserter plus combiner approach solves that problem.


----------



## litzdog911

Just had a local Ironwood installer help me re-vamp my "dish farm" from the dual AT9 approach to using 3 dishes as shown in the second diagram here ....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1079192&postcount=164

A tree was gradually blocking my second AT9's view of 119-deg W, so we mounted a new dish to receive 119-deg and used the combiners with the Sonora locker to make it all work. Works great! Lost a bit of signal level on 110-deg (from mid-90's to mid-80's), but everything else is fine.


----------



## Bill Broderick

It's comforting to see that additional people are having success with the methodology that I'm planning on using (if I can ever get the installer to my house to install it). It's not that I don't trust doctorj, it's just nice to see a few "me too's".

While waiting for the installer to show up yesterday, I swapped out my old 4x8 multi-switch with the Combiners, power inserter and WB68, connected to my phase 2 dish (for Sats A & C) and a round dish (for Sat B). So I anticipate that my signals on Sats B & C should remain consistent with the current signal strength.


----------



## jbraden

I finally completed the upgrade described in my post #171 of this thread, and we now have another confirmed good solution. My original setup used an 18" round dish for the 101 satellite and a Phase III 3-lnb oval dish for 110 and 119. These were combined by running the 2 wires from the 101 to the no-tone inputs and 2 wires from the 3-lnb dish to the 22 kHz tone inputs of a 4x8 multiswitch. I replaced the round dish with a WNC AT9 dish with the side arm containing the 110 & 119 LNBs removed. Two of the 4 AT9 outputs go to the leftmost inputs of a Sonora HRPID 1422 polarity locker and power inserter, and the other two each go to one of the Holland HFS-2P splitters used as combiners. The two wires from my old 3-lnb dish go to the other side of the combiners, and the combined satellite signals (coming from the jacks marked IN on the splitters) go to the remaining satellite inputs on the Sonora. The four outputs of the Sonora go to the four inputs of a Zinwell WB68 multiswitch, as shown in the previous drawing, and the outputs of the multiswitch connect to the satellite receivers.










Signal strengths on the 103b transponders range from 93-97, and on the 110 and 119 are pretty much unchanged from my previous levels, so I don't think the combiners and power inserter are causing much, if any, degradation of signal strength. I seem to be getting all of the new HD channels successfully, as well as the old HD channels on 110 and 119. Thank you to doctor j and litzdog911 for blazing the trail.

I'm left with a brand new CalAmp AT9 dish which I bought in case I had to resort to "Plan B", but fortunately that wasn't necessary.


----------



## carl6

Congratulations, and thank you for another solution. Excellent work.

Carl


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## Bill Broderick

Good job jbraden. Congratulations.


----------



## litzdog911

Thanks jbraden!


----------



## jefbal99

I have a Phase 3 dish that is not being used and is free for anybody that is in a situation needing multiple dish setup.

A family friend upgraded to the AU9 and the installers left his Phase 3 in the garage, he gave it to my sister who right after they replaced their original dish with the phase 3, upgraded to the AU9 as well.

Just cover the shipping and the dish is yours.

I love reading about these interesting setups and ways people get around limitations of their areas to get a service they want.

Very impressed by everyone in this thread.


----------



## hiker

jefbal99 said:


> I have a Phase 3 dish that is not being used and is free for anybody that is in a situation needing multiple dish setup.
> ...


I don't believe a Phase III dish will work since it has a combo LNB/multiswitch The Phase II dish has separate LNBs and separate MS mounted on the back of the dish. Thanks for the offer.


----------



## veryoldschool

hiker said:


> I don't believe a Phase III dish will work since it has a combo LNB/multiswitch The Phase II dish has separate LNBs and separate MS mounted on the back of the dish. Thanks for the offer.


Actually I believe the phase III will work. The multi-switch in it isn't an issue.
If the LOS is very narrow, then two separate dishes may be needed, located so they both can get LOS.


----------



## jefbal99

Maybe I stated that badly as I'm fairly new to D*, the dish has 3 lnbs on it.

But from the reading and research I've done, I'm pretty sure its a phase 3


----------



## hiker

jefbal99 said:


> Maybe I stated that badly as I'm fairly new to D*, the dish has 3 lnbs on it.
> 
> But from the reading and research I've done, I'm pretty sure its a phase 3


Take a look at the pictures here and you should be able to tell.

VOS: Won't the 101 signal from the Phase III LNB cause a conflict when couple with the 101 signal from the AT9 LNB? Two signals from the same sat - not good.


----------



## jefbal99

hiker said:


> Take a look at the pictures here and you should be able to tell.
> 
> VOS: Won't the 101 signal from the Phase III LNB cause a conflict when couple with the 101 siganl from the AT9 LNB? Two signals from the same sat - not good.


It's phase III


----------



## veryoldschool

hiker said:


> VOS: Won't the 101 signal from the Phase III LNB cause a conflict when couple with the 101 signal from the AT9 LNB? Two signals from the same sat - not good.


101 is the "no tone" while 110 & 119 are the "tone", so why would the Phase III even connect to the 101 LNB?


----------



## hiker

veryoldschool said:


> 101 is the "no tone" while 110 & 119 are the "tone", so why would the Phase III even connect to the 101 LNB?


Maybe so. But I learned long ago, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Care to give it a try?


----------



## jbraden

veryoldschool said:


> 101 is the "no tone" while 110 & 119 are the "tone", so why would the Phase III even connect to the 101 LNB?


The polarity locker ensures the LNB for the 101 satellite is never selected on the Phase III dish. The two wires from that dish always receive the 22kHz tone. and the signals from the 110 and 119 satellites are combined with the signals from the 103 satellite through the two wideband splitters used as combiners.


----------



## jbraden

hiker said:


> Maybe so. But I learned long ago, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Care to give it a try?


The results of "giving it a try" were reported in my post #201 with a photo of the actual installation. The diagram showing the required connections was in my post #171.


----------



## veryoldschool

hiker said:


> Maybe so. But I learned long ago, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Care to give it a try?


I learned long ago to know how something works before making changes.
1) the problem you elude to is with the 5 LNB and having the 110 & 119 still powered. The control signals used for them also control the 103 LNB. Since this are needed, if you don't have an AT-9, where you can disconnect the 110 & 119 LNBs, you will have problems using the AU9.
2) So if you are using the AT-9 99/101/103 LNB, you can combine the phase III to the 13 volt 22 kHz & the 18 volt 22 kHz lines and have: only one LNB active for: 99, 101, 103, 110, 119, which is what is required.

Anybody see a flaw in this logic? Please post it.


----------



## hiker

jbraden said:


> The results of "giving it a try" were reported in my post #201 with a photo of the actual installation. The diagram showing the required connections was in my post #171.


Ah, thanks. Somehow I missed #171. So it looks like we currently have 3 working methods. Now if someone could figure a way to use a AU9 instead of AT9. I see someone posted dissected photos of the AU9 LNB.


----------



## Bill Broderick

hiker said:


> Ah, thanks. Somehow I missed #171.


When post 171 was written, it was a proposed methodology. After trying it and determining that it worked, jbraden wrote post 201 and updated the diagram in post 171 to show that the, previously proposed methodology, is now confirmed to work.


----------



## litzdog911

Just added jbraden's THIRD approach to the post with the other two approaches here ...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1079192&postcount=164

This way we can provide one link to folks looking for the confirmed methods. Thanks everybody!


----------



## jbraden

As a final follow-up to my 2-dish solution, I emailed DirecTV and explained that because of my line-of-sight problems, I needed to do a custom install in order to get access to all 5 satellites, and itemized my expenses. I requested programming credits to help compensate me for the materials and labor involved, since DirecTV did not have to pay for a dish and install directly. DirecTV called me back and offered credits of $19.99/mo. for 12 months, or $239.88 over the next year. Although this doesn't cover all of my costs, I thought it was a very fair offer, and I certainly am going to enjoy the new HD channels over the years ahead.


----------



## Bill Broderick

To take jbraden's comments one step further, I would suggest making this phone call *before* spending money to get the multi-dish solution implemented. At that point you have more leverage with DirecTV.

My original upgrade offer from D* was a free upgrade of my HD DVR, HD receiver and installation of a Slimline. They would then upgrade my HD reciever to an HD DVR for $199. After it turned out that this wouldn't work and the installer cancelled the installation without even going on the roof (and then the supervisor, who was supposed to come out to do a site inspection, never showed up), I was in the process aquiring an AT9, I called D* because I was concerned about the fact that I would be getting the AT9 installed without a current generation HD receiver available for alignment purposes and didn't want to get hit with a new 2 year commitment in case the multi-dish solution didn't work for me.

I spoke with a Customer Retention person, who understood my dilemna. She told me that they couldn't waive the two year commitment, but that she could send me an HD receiver for free, which I shouldn't activate until after we use it to align the dish and are happy with the results (which, unless I get rained out for the third time, will occur tomorrow).

Then I need to call back for the two HD DVR's, which will now both be for free.

Like jbraden, they didn't completely cover my costs. However, given all of the other things that they were already giving me for free, I didn't expect them to.


----------



## Bill Broderick

I don't believe it. After two months of having a D* installer come to my house, take a quick look at my existing two dish installation and tell me that I have an LOS problem, followed by the Halsted supervisor blowing off two appointments for a site survey, followed by purchasing an AT9 from ebay, only to have the seller's warehouse substitute an AU9 for it (which I haven't gotten a refund on yet), followed by the purchase of two AT9's (so that I would have one as a backup should there be problems in the future) and two canceled appointments with the installer that I hired, due to weather issues, today was finally the day to get my 3 dish solution installed.

The installer showed up at my house, took one quick look and said "You don't need a complicated install. I'm positive that I can get a good signal with a Slimline." Which is exactly what he proceeded to do. Not only does it work, but I get reception on Sats A, B & C than I ever did with my previous installation.

I had the Phase II dish installed before RCA came out with the adapter that converted the RGB signal to component. So it was installed without being able to test 119 on a receiver. When I got the receiver and found that 119 didn't work, the installer came back out and tried to adjust the dish with no success. What I didn't realize is that he never tried moving the dish to a different location (the Slimline is about 5 feet away from the Phase II). He ended up putting up a second, round, dish on the front of my roof, which required that I hire someone to trim a tree on my neighbor's property (they were happy that I asked them, because the branch that needed to be trimmed was hanging over their roof, so I ended up doing them a favor by paying for it to be removed.

Apparently, when the first installer showed up with the Slimline back in early September, he just assumed that, since I already had a multi-dish install, it wouldn't be possible to get a signal with a Slimline.

So, I guess the two AT9's that I bought on ebay, will now be sold on ebay. I won't be putting them on ebay for at least a few weeks (I'm going on vacation next week), so if anyone here is looking for an AT9 (or two) for a multi dish install, let me know. I'd rather sell them to someone from here than to sell them randomly on ebay.


----------



## litzdog911

Glad to hear you didn't need a complicated multi-dish setup, Bill. Congratulations on a successful installation.


----------



## jefbal99

Hey litzdog, i notice in your sig that you still have the dual AT9 setup listed, but I swear you said that you switched over to the 3 dish setup with separate dishes for 110 and 119.

What config are you currently using?


----------



## litzdog911

jefbal99 said:


> Hey litzdog, i notice in your sig that you still have the dual AT9 setup listed, but I swear you said that you switched over to the 3 dish setup with separate dishes for 110 and 119.
> 
> What config are you currently using?


Good catch. Yep, time to update the signature!

It's still sort of correct .... I'm using two AT9's, one to receive 99/101/103 and the other to receive just 110-deg W. Then we added a third dish just for 119-deg W. Works great!


----------



## jefbal99

litzdog911 said:


> Good catch. Yep, time to update the signature!
> 
> It's still sort of correct .... I'm using two AT9's, one to receive 99/101/103 and the other to receive just 110-deg W. Then we added a third dish just for 119-deg W. Works great!


Damn, take a pic and post it, thats gotta be one hell of a setup. I consider myself lucky that I can use a single dish and found a good enough place to hide it so the wife would ok it.


----------



## Bill Broderick

litzdog911 said:


> It's still sort of correct .... I'm using two AT9's, one to receive 99/101/103 and the other to receive just 110-deg W. Then we added a third dish just for 119-deg W. Works great!


In your original post, you indicated that you should be able to see 119 from the location where you have 99/101/103. Given that you are able to use your second dish solely to receive 110, shouldn't you be able to go back to a two dish solution, with the first dish receiving 99/101/105 & 119 and the second dish receiving 110? I would think that you could either connect Port 1 from one of the 110/119 LNB's and port 2 of the other 110/119 LNB to the primary LNB, which would be very similar to your intial setup. Or you could connect one port from each of the 110/119 LNB's to the appropriate combiners, which would be similar to your current setup.

Either way, if your original post is accurate and you can see 99/101/103 & 119 from the original location, I would think that you should be able to eliminate one dish in your setup.


----------



## litzdog911

Bill Broderick said:


> In your original post, you indicated that you should be able to see 119 from the location where you have 99/101/103. Given that you are able to use your second dish solely to receive 110, shouldn't you be able to go back to a two dish solution, with the first dish receiving 99/101/105 & 119 and the second dish receiving 110? I would think that you could either connect Port 1 from one of the 110/119 LNB's and port 2 of the other 110/119 LNB to the primary LNB, which would be very similar to your intial setup. Or you could connect one port from each of the 110/119 LNB's to the appropriate combiners, which would be similar to your current setup.
> 
> Either way, if your original post is accurate and you can see 99/101/103 & 119 from the original location, I would think that you should be able to eliminate one dish in your setup.


OK Bill, where you were you two weeks ago 

Seriously, that's a good idea. Of course, it's working now with the three dishes, so I'm not motivated to change it. And my AT9 for 99/101/103 doesn't have the sidecar LNBs mounted, although that could have been addressed pretty easily.

Besides, it's so much more impressive with three dishes!


----------



## Bill Broderick

litzdog911 said:


> OK Bill, where you were you two weeks ago


Until you posted that your setup was working using an AT9 for 110, I wouldn't have thought that it would work. I had assumed that there was some type of switch built into the small AT9 LNB that was combining 110 & 119 before sending it to the large LNB. However, the fact that you are able to combine the 110 output from the smaller LNB to the 119 from a different dish indicates that this isn't the case.

So, two weeks ago, I not only wouldn't have thought of this, I would have bet that the method that you successfully implemented wouldn't have worked either.


----------



## litzdog911

Bill Broderick said:


> Until you posted that your setup was working using an AT9 for 110, I wouldn't have thought that it would work. I had assumed that there was some type of switch built into the small AT9 LNB that was combining 110 & 119 before sending it to the large LNB. However, the fact that you are able to combine the 110 output from the smaller LNB to the 119 from a different dish indicates that this isn't the case.
> 
> So, two weeks ago, I not only wouldn't have thought of this, I would have bet that the method that you successfully implemented wouldn't have worked either.


Good point. I was skeptical, too, and was prepared to replace that second AT9 with my old 18" dish with the Sat C LNB. But the Ironwood Tech was a pro and was convinced it would work. And it does. There is, however, a ~20-pt signal reading drop on my 110-deg readings (from mid-90's to mid-70's), but it's still good enough to work fine.


----------



## litzdog911

As requested, here are a couple of photos of my multidish setup. I'm using the combination scheme diagramed in the second picture here (except using an AT9 for 110-deg instead of an 18" dish with the SatC LNB) ....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1079192&postcount=164

Photo of "dish farm"









Photo of combiners









And here's what I'm up against!


----------



## jefbal99

Nice setup up and DAMN, cut down some trees or at least cut yourself some holes in them.


----------



## veryoldschool

litzdog911 said:


> Good point. I was skeptical, too, and was prepared to replace that second AT9 with my old 18" dish with the Sat C LNB. But the Ironwood Tech was a pro and was convinced it would work. And it does. There is, however, a ~20-pt signal reading drop on my 110-deg readings (from mid-90's to mid-70's), but it's still good enough to work fine.


FWIW: the 110 low levels may be due to the fact that the LNB [I've been told] uses different voltages [requiring it to be fed through/by the AT9 multi-switch].
If the "old 18" with SAT C LNB" was used, "I'd bet" your levels would be back.


----------



## Bill Broderick

post removed

I had the 119 & 110 dishes mixed up.


----------



## litzdog911

jefbal99 said:


> Nice setup up and DAMN, cut down some trees or at least cut yourself some holes in them.


I wish I could cut them dow! But they're not on my property. And we have lots of tree-lovers in our neighborhood. You can bet that the thought of a little "midnight chainsaw massacre" has crossed my mind more than once.


----------



## Bill Broderick

I got lucky when I needed to have some cutting done in order to receive 119 back when I had the Phase 2 installed. One of the branches the blocked the LOS was from a neighbor's tree. Luckily for me, that large branch was hanging over the roof of their house.

When I asked if they would be OK with me paying someone to come trim the branch on that tree, I also offered to pay the tree guy to trim a few other branches that were also hanging over their house. They were more than happy to accept that offer.


----------



## Ext 721

Setup for slimline and triple sat (theoretical)

start with the triple. run two lines to the "for splitting" side of two splitter-combiners. Preferably these two are single-leg power passing and 950-2050 MHZ.

Run the power legs to a powered 4x8 switch, into it's 13vx22khz and 18vx22khz legs, respectively. Running the 13v and 18 v directly into the triple isn't a bad idea, and that would leave 8 ports for Standard def. 

Run the unpowered legs of the splitters to a second set of splitter-combiners, into the unpowered legs. Be sure to match the voltages.

The "combined" ports of these other combiners...which !!MUST !! pass the full 250-2150 spectrum...should go to the respective ports of the wideband 6x8 (or 6x16) switch.

The powered legs go to the ka/ku dish, which should have it's 110 and 119 LNBs disabled. This might be accomplished by covering them with foil, then duct-tape, or possibly a heavy coat of metallic paint followed by directv gray.

Of course, the 13v and 18v ports of the 6x8 go to the ka/ku dish.

This setup pipes the 110 and 119 signal from the 3-lnb dish to the 6x8, allows passage of the 103 and 99 to the 6x8, and should not transfer (or require!)voltage to or from either dish location.

It should also give 8 freed-up SD ports, and 8 or 16 HD ports.

The splitter-combiners are not nessecarily standard equipment, but everything else is.

Your humble narrator,

Extension 721


----------



## litzdog911

Ext 721:

Review earlier in this thread and you'll see a similar approach was tried. Blocking the 110 & 119-deg LNBs with foil does not work. Even if they can't "see" the satellites, their signal still swamps a combined dish's signal. They would need to be electrically disabled, and the only way to do that with the SlimLine would require opening it up (not recommended). 

It would great to have a suitable scheme using the Slimline since AT9's are getting harder to find. But I don't think this one will work.


----------



## Ext 721

litzdog911 said:


> Ext 721:
> 
> Review earlier in this thread and you'll see a similar approach was tried. Blocking the 110 & 119-deg LNBs with foil does not work. Even if they can't "see" the satellites, their signal still swamps a combined dish's signal. They would need to be electrically disabled, and the only way to do that with the SlimLine would require opening it up (not recommended).
> 
> It would great to have a suitable scheme using the Slimline since AT9's are getting harder to find. But I don't think this one will work.


Such a shame. I can see where random noise would interfere, but I'm not convinced the interference would be all that bad.

I'll have to get a "dead" one from my local HSP and see what's behind the screws.

tinker time can be fun.


----------



## Ext 721

litzdog911 said:


> Read earlier in this thread where I tried using the Flexport inputs on my Zinwell WB68. It didn't work.


Right...but that's because the software isn't designed to do that.

If it can get the 72.5 on either a 4x8 13v 22khz....OR a 18v 22khz (in the past, a switchover was made via software update) OR a flexport (again, software update)

then there's no reason whatsoever that a software update couldn't do the same for the 110/119.

at least for the D1x / H2x /HR2x series

Which was my point in the post.


----------



## Ext 721

litzdog911 said:


> I think it has to do with the fact that the 103, 110 and 119-deg satellites are "switched" together by the Receiver/multiswitch's 22kHz switching tone. Likewise the 99 & 101-deg satellites are together.


I'm fairly certain this little bit was responsible for HD receivers that would periodically "aquiring guide data, please wait" while watching a program...

they were flipping to the 101.

Thus, the 119 for guide data.


----------



## CKNAV

I just wanted thank guys in this thread for their hard work figuring out multiple dish approach. I recently switched to D* and could not receive all the satellites from one spot. I can get 99,101 and 103 from one, and 110, 119 from another spot. I used the method from post #171 and it worked like a charm.

Thanks a lot


----------



## veryoldschool

Ext 721 said:


> I can see where random noise would interfere, but I'm not convinced the interference would be all that bad.


This has been tried twice, with the same unsuccessful outcome.
"In theory" a 3 dB increase of noise should be all that happens, but "in fact", the signals are lost.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Ext 721 said:


> I'll have to get a "dead" one from my local HSP and see what's behind the screws.
> 
> tinker time can be fun.


Someone has already done that and has posted photos of the disassembled Slimline in this thread

It appears that there are 3 separate circuit boards in the Slimline. One for 99/101/103, one for 110/119 and one for the multiswitch. There are connections from the 99/101/103 circuit board to each of the other boards. A possibility, that hasn't been tested yet, is, that disconnecting the 110/119 circuit board from the 99/101/103 board, could produce the same results as not connecting the two separate LNB units on the Sidecar dish does. If so, a modified Slimline could be used in one of the 3 dish setups.


----------



## carl6

If someone wants to fess up a Slimline LNB assembly, I'll be happy to do the testing. I'm not willing to give up mine to the test though. 

In fact, I'll go one step farther. I've got a spare 5-LNB. If someone will guarantee to replace the LNB assembly if I toast it in the testing, I'll do the test. If no damage is done and I can restore the dish to original functionality, no problem.

Carl


----------



## hiker

carl6 said:


> If someone wants to fess up a Slimline LNB assembly, I'll be happy to do the testing. I'm not willing to give up mine to the test though.
> 
> In fact, I'll go one step farther. I've got a spare 5-LNB. If someone will guarantee to replace the LNB assembly if I toast it in the testing, I'll do the test. If no damage is done and I can restore the dish to original functionality, no problem.
> 
> Carl


I have a spare new CalAmp AU9 LNB that you could have. I never tested it since it came with the dish I installed and I replaced it with a WNC right from the start. GL


----------



## carl6

hiker said:


> I have a spare new CalAmp AU9 LNB that you could have. I never tested it since it came with the dish I installed and I replaced it with a WNC right from the start. GL


I just sent you a PM. I'll reimburse the postage.

Carl


----------



## jbraden

I'm not sure that disassembling an AU9S LNB and cutting etches on the circuit board is the easiest way to deal with the decreasing avalability of the discontinued AT9 dish. I see Zinwell still has the type of LNBs used on the AT9 dishes listed on their web site here. See the last LNB models on that page. The satellite installations in Alaska and Hawaii use two dishes with one pointed at the 99/101/103 satellites and a second pointed at the 110/119 satellites. There are two LNB kits sold for these dishes, DTVAHKAKUKIT for 99/101/103, and DTVAH1019KIT for 110/119. These are available through online retailers. The 99/101/103 LNB seems to run a little under $100. In the lower 48 states we don't need a 1.2m dish, but I'd think this LNB could be mounted on a smaller dish, and could work with any of the solutions from this thread. It would be great if somebody who has experience with these LNB kits could contribute more information about them.


----------



## litzdog911

jbraden said:


> I'm not sure that disassembling an AU9S LNB and cutting etches on the circuit board is the easiest way to deal with the decreasing avalability of the discontinued AT9 dish. I see Zinwell still has the type of LNBs used on the AT9 dishes listed on their web site here. See the last LNB models on that page. The satellite installations in Alaska and Hawaii use two dishes with one pointed at the 99/101/103 satellites and a second pointed at the 110/119 satellites.  There are two LNB kits sold for these dishes, DTVAHKAKUKIT for 99/101/103, and DTVAH1019KIT for 110/119. These are available through online retailers. The 99/101/103 LNB seems to run a little under $100. In the lower 48 states we don't need a 1.2m dish, but I'd think this LNB could be mounted on a smaller dish, and could work with any of the solutions from this thread. It would be great if somebody who has experience with these LNB kits could contribute more information about them.


I'm not sure if those larger dish LNBs could be modified to work with the smaller dishes. Typically the dish and LNBs are designed to be used together.

Has anyone seen a continental US supplier of these larger dishes with the kits mentioned above? For someone willing to put up with the "ugly factor" of the larger dishes, this could be an easy solution. But I've not seen them for sale.


----------



## litzdog911

carl6 said:


> If someone wants to fess up a Slimline LNB assembly, I'll be happy to do the testing. I'm not willing to give up mine to the test though.
> 
> In fact, I'll go one step farther. I've got a spare 5-LNB. If someone will guarantee to replace the LNB assembly if I toast it in the testing, I'll do the test. If no damage is done and I can restore the dish to original functionality, no problem.
> 
> Carl


Thanks Carl! Keep us posted.


----------



## hiker

jbraden said:


> ...
> There are two LNB kits sold for these dishes, DTVAHKAKUKIT for 99/101/103, and DTVAH1019KIT for 110/119. These are available through online retailers.
> ...


Who are the online retailers?


----------



## jbraden

hiker said:


> Who are the online retailers?


From a quick Google search, Beach Audio charges $98.99, The Satellite Shop chages $119.99, and Clearance MegaStore charges $97.74. Looking through web pages of satellite installers in Anchorage, I see they use various dish sizes including 30", 1M, 1.2M, 1.8M, depending on location, so I think as long as the LNB is placed at the focal point of the dish, the size doesn't really require any changes to the LNB. The 30" Winegard that people use to combat rain fade should be more than big enough for the lower 48 states, as long as the LNB can be mounted accurately.


----------



## fo71

Hi there... got something new here. I have succesfully tested scenario or approach number 2 without the sonora HRPID1422. 

That device locks polarity and inserts power, however the WB68 switch also locks polarity. Therefore, the HRPID1422's only job is to insert power. The power insertion issue came up in the early stages of all this testing when the attempt was made to connect legacy 110/119 lnb's to the AU9's port 1 and 2. However once that was left aside, the legacy 110/199 lnb's now connect directly to the WB68 hence receiving power directly from the receivers thus eliminating the need to "externally" power them.

So... one less piece to buy, connect and take care off, and also saving a little bit of energy.

Regards,


----------



## carl6

Hi to all.

Thanks to the user Hiker, I now have a CalAmp 5-LNB assembly that I can mutilate in order to test how easy/hard it might be to modify a Slimline dish for use with a second (or pair second and third) dish for line of sight issues with 110 and 119.

The LNB arrived today, and I've had it apart and back together. Once back together (with no mods) I mounted it on my dish and ran signal level tests to establish a baseline. Good signals on all satellites (in fact just a wee bit better than my WNC LNB assembly).

I've now got the LNB assembly back off the dish and am ready to start surgery on it. However I do not yet have the necessary combiners to hook up the other dish(es), but they are on order so should have them soon.

I'm taking lots of pictures, and documenting everything I do step by step. Once I see if it works (or doesn't for that matter), I'll post all the details, photos, etc.

At first inspection, it looks like it will be relatively easy to do the modification I'm thinking of. Whether or not that will accomplish what we want, I won't know until we try.

Carl


----------



## litzdog911

carl6 said:


> Hi to all.
> 
> Thanks to the user Hiker, I now have a CalAmp 5-LNB assembly that I can mutilate in order to test how easy/hard it might be to modify a Slimline dish for use with a second (or pair second and third) dish for line of sight issues with 110 and 119.
> 
> The LNB arrived today, and I've had it apart and back together. Once back together (with no mods) I mounted it on my dish and ran signal level tests to establish a baseline. Good signals on all satellites (in fact just a wee bit better than my WNC LNB assembly).
> 
> I've now got the LNB assembly back off the dish and am ready to start surgery on it. However I do not yet have the necessary combiners to hook up the other dish(es), but they are on order so should have them soon.
> 
> I'm taking lots of pictures, and documenting everything I do step by step. Once I see if it works (or doesn't for that matter), I'll post all the details, photos, etc.
> 
> At first inspection, it looks like it will be relatively easy to do the modification I'm thinking of. Whether or not that will accomplish what we want, I won't know until we try.
> 
> Carl


Sounds like good news, Carl. What sort of connectors do you need? I might have access to some.


----------



## carl6

What I ordered were the specific combiners that were mentioned in earlier posts where people got the AT9 minus sidecar to work with a Phase III, and with a separate 110 and 119 (different combiners used by the two people, so I ordered a set of each so I can duplicate what worked exactly, other than the 5-LNB assembly).

I made the modification to the LNB assembly tonight, which involved carefully unsoldering and lifting three jumpers between the 110/119 circuit board, and the main circuit board. It was very easy to do. What I don't know, and won't for a few days, is whether or not this is actually going to work.

To determine that, I'll need the combiners, and I also have a Sonora on the way. Don't really think I'll need the Sonora, but again, I want to duplicate what already works exactly, so the only unknown element is the modified LNB assembly.

I've taken the pictures at fairly high res, so will need to down-res them some in order to post them.

So for now, it's a waiting game until (a) I get the combiners, and (b) it stops raining for a few hours so I can mount the other dishes to test with. They are all in the garage waiting more patiently than I am.

Also, once I determine that this will work, I intend to put the Cal Amp back to normal configuration, then do the same thing with the WNC. I have not had it apart yet, so don't know if it will be the same or different. I'd like to prove that both can be modified, and provide the instructions for doing so.

Carl


----------



## doctor j

I've been investigating the Alaska/ Hawaii Directv dish to the point of actually ordering the KAKUKIT to understand the electronic connections.
It is actually a great 2 or even 3 dish setup to receive Ka and Ku signals.
It is manufactured as a special Directv item by Pro Brand International, better known as Eagle-Aspen.
It unfortunately seems to be tied to the 1.2 meter dish and therefore is cumbersome and expensive ( $350 to $450 per dish).
I would like for Directv to release a model (only the dish and lnb mount arm would need to be different) in the 60 to 90 cm dish range.

The setup is basically 2 dishes. One with a single headed triple 99/101/103 lnb assembly with a special builtin multiswitch. The second dish has 2 separate lnbs (therefore could be used together or separately) for 110 and 119. They have coax connectors and connect like a sat c kit with the combiner built into the 110 assembly. 2 lines (one each from the 119 &110) connect to the main (99/101/103) lnb and 4 lines out of main lnb to house. There is one line between the 110 &119 lnbs to combine the 119 even to 110. The wording of the instructions make me believe regular 119 & 110 LNB's can't be used.

I'll post diagrams later when i can get them scanned.

Doctor j


----------



## litzdog911

doctor j said:


> I've been investigating the Alaska/ Hawaii Directv dish to the point of actually ordering the KAKUKIT to understand the electronic connections.
> It is actually a great 2 or even 3 dish setup to receive Ka and Ku signals.
> It is manufactured as a special Directv item by Pro Brand International, better known as Eagle-Aspen.
> It unfortunately seems to be tied to the 1.2 meter dish and therefore is cumbersome and expensive ( $350 to $450 per dish).
> I would like for Directv to release a model (only the dish and lnb mount arm would need to be different) in the 60 to 90 cm dish range.
> 
> The setup is basically 2 dishes. One with a single headed triple 99/101/103 lnb assembly with a special builtin multiswitch. The second dish has 2 separate lnbs (therefore could be used together or separately) for 110 and 119. They have coax connectors and connect like a sat c kit with the combiner built into the 110 assembly. 2 lines (one each from the 119 &110) connect to the main (99/101/103) lnb and 4 lines out of main lnb to house. There is one line between the 110 &119 lnbs to combine the 119 even to 110. The wording of the instructions make me believe regular 119 & 110 LNB's can't be used.
> 
> I'll post diagrams later when i can get them scanned.
> 
> Doctor j


Do you actually have these dishes? If so, where did you order them? Photos would be appreciated!

Thanks Doctorj!


----------



## doctor j

Litzdog:

I don't have the complete dish but I do have the assembly manual for the dish, az/el mount, 110/119 lnb, & 99/101/103 lnb.

I do have the DTVAHKAKUKIT which is the 99/101/103 lnb and plan to assemble at least one dish to assess the extra gain over the AU-9S. This is pending the wife approval of the BUD factor. The dish is 4 ft in diameter!! Here in Alabama we get very intense thunderstorms. Not many lately with the drought but brief intense storms will give rain fade even with all 5 sats reading 95-100 on signal strength on clear days.

Can order items from:
http://www.thesatelliteshop.net/antennas-lnbfs-c-810_691.html?page=2&sort=20a

Partial availability, slightly less expensive here:
http://www.beachaudio.com/DirecTv/Dtvahkakukit-p-93309.html

Expense is an issue:
Dish #1
DTVAH12DISH - $159.99
DTVAH12AZEL - $179.99
DTVAHKAKUKIT -$119.99
DTVAHWALLMNT -$169.99

Total $629.96 Probably don't need mount but still $459.97

Dish #2
DTVAH12DISH - $159.99
DTVAH12AZEL - $179.99
DTVAH1019KIT -$49.99
DTVAHWALLMNT -$169.99

Total $559.96 W/O mount $389.97

I've considered other options such as a Fortec 1.0 or 1.2 Dish but uncertain if the lnb's can be mounted accurately. This could be substantially cheaper. A three dish full setup , as is , could be north of $1800 after shipping!

Doctor j


----------



## doctor j

Here are some of the installation instructions.
The comment : You will not see any signal if signal meter is connected directv to any of the 110 or 119 outputs. Test in full operational mode only. ( ie thru one of 4outputs from multiswitch on 99/101/103 LNB assembly ) makes me think some different signal output in in the interconnects and standard 18" 110 or 119 dishes can't be substituted for the DTVAH1019KIT lnb's.

Any other thoughts??

Doctor j


----------



## veryoldschool

doctor j said:


> Here are some of the installation instructions.
> The comment : You will not see any signal if signal meter is connected directv to any of the 110 or 119 outputs. Test in full operational mode only. ( ie thru one of 4outputs from multiswitch on 99/101/103 LNB assembly ) makes me think some different signal output in in the interconnects and standard 18" 110 or 119 dishes can't be substituted for the DTVAH1019KIT lnb's.
> 
> Any other thoughts??
> 
> Doctor j


Someone has posted that the drive voltage for the sidecar 110 & 119 LNBs is well below the 13/18 volts from the receivers.
"It sounds like" this is the same with these LNBs


----------



## litzdog911

veryoldschool said:


> Someone has posted that the drive voltage for the sidecar 110 & 119 LNBs is well below the 13/18 volts from the receivers.
> "It sounds like" this is the same with these LNBs


Agreed. I think these special LNBs are simply bigger versions of the "sidecar" LNBs used on the AT9 5-LNB dish. Carl will determine if they're equivalent on the integrated SlimLine AU9 5-LNB dish.

Too bad they're so darn expensive! You would think folks in Hawaii and Alaska would need to commit for like 10-years to justify the payback!


----------



## carl6

litzdog911 said:


> Carl will determine if they're equivalent on the integrated SlimLine AU9 5-LNB dish.


Actually I don't think I will determine that at all. I have disconnected the internal jumpers to the 110/119 "sidecar" inside the slimline LNB so theoretically they should not send an interfering signal. The combiners are supposed to show up tomorrow, so hopefully by tomorrow night I will be able to report if the modified slimline combined with a Phase III, will work or not. I put my Phase III back up yesterday and tested it, so everything is in place except for the combiners and Sonora. Both show delivery dates for tomorrow (the 6th).

But this configuration uses power from either the receiver, or a Sonora, via the combiners, to power the Phase III - not the feeds from the main board of the slimline. I did not intend to try and measure any voltages or signals inside the Slimline.

As to the AK/HI LNB's that doctor j has and posted information on, I agree that they appear to function very much like the AT9 sidecar. What that SHOULD mean is that you could combine the AK 99/101/103 LNB assembly outputs via in external set of combiner with a standard 110 and 119 (or Phase III for that matter), in the configuration posted earlier in this thread. You just couldn't plug a regular 110/119 into the custom 110/119 port on the AK 99/101/103.

Carl


----------



## Bill Broderick

If it turns out that you need additional combiners for any reason, let me know. I have two of the Channel Vision HS-2 combiners and two of the Holland HFS-2P Power Passing combiners that became unnecessary when it was determined that I could, in fact use the Slimline instead of multiple dishes.

If they can help with the testing, I'd be happy to donate them to the cause.


----------



## doctor j

Carl6 :
I think you may have something.
I went ahead and ordered the 1.2 meter dish. Freight shipping may take a while but before I invest in two I think I'll test the phase III with the AH 101 array.
Probable will be a couple of weeks to get set up and test but will report back.
Given the predicted transfer of MPEG 2 HDTV to Ka MPEG 4, I wont need 110/119 "soon". The expected increased gain of the 1.2 m dish may really help on rainfade. I'm going to make actual strenght measurements in dBm via the Superbuddy and will report that as well.


Doctor j


----------



## carl6

Well, UPS just showed up and the HFS2P splitter/combiners I was supposed to receive were substituted with P7002AP splitters (which don't combine).

So, my test is postponed until the correct parts arrive. Don't know when that will be. I ordered two different sets of splitter/combiners. The first pair is what came today. The second pair is delayed in delivery due to I-5 being washed out south of here. 

At the moment, my testing is on hold for an unknown period of time.:crying: 

I did hook up the modified Slimline LNB today though (all by itself, not combined with anything else) and got the expected results. Good signals on 99/101/103 and no signals on 110/119, according to the HR20 transponder signal meters. I don't have better test equipment available (i.e., spectrum analyzer) to do more detailed testing. It looks promising, but just won't know until I see good signals from all satellites through the combined system.

Carl


----------



## Bill Broderick

carl6 said:


> So, my test is postponed until the correct parts arrive. Don't know when that will be. I ordered two different sets of splitter/combiners. The first pair is what came today. The second pair is delayed in delivery due to I-5 being washed out south of here.


Carl,
Send me your address, via PM, and I'll send you a pair of HFS2P's and a pair of Channel Vision HS-2's to test with.


----------



## carl6

Okay, impatience leads to innovation

Using six splitters and a Terk BMS58 (for power) I created my own pair of combiners.

*THE MODIFIED SLIMLINE COMBINED WITH A PHASE III DISH WORKS GREAT!*:joy:

I will post instructions and pictures tomorrow. Given that this works, I have no doubt the modified Slimline will also work with two separate dishes (one each for 110 and 119).

(Note: The only thing I'm using the Terk for is as a power source, not as a multiswitch.)

Carl


----------



## carl6

Bill Broderick said:


> Carl,
> Send me your address, via PM, and I'll send you a pair of HFS2P's and a pair of Channel Vision HS-2's to test with.


Thanks Bill. As you can see, not necessary.

Carl


----------



## veryoldschool

Gee Carl, did you get it to work? I missed that somewhere. :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

I can't wait to see the pics of how you modified everything


----------



## jbraden

carl6 said:


> Okay, impatience leads to innovation
> 
> Using six splitters and a Terk BMS58 (for power) I created my own pair of combiners.
> ...
> I will post instructions and pictures tomorrow. Given that this works, I have no doubt the modified Slimline will also work with two separate dishes (one each for 110 and 119).
> Carl


Congratulations Carl! Great work... I look forward to seeing all the details! I'm also curious as to why you needed a power source, since fo71 got a 2-dish configuration to work without one. Did disassembling and modifying the Slimline LNB assembly affect its weathertightness in any way? Thanks!


----------



## hiker

:goodjob: Kudos for Carl, Good Job :goodjob:


----------



## veryoldschool

jbraden said:


> Congratulations Carl! Great work... I look forward to seeing all the details! I'm also curious as to why you needed a power source, since fo71 got a 2-dish configuration to work without one. Did disassembling and modifying the Slimline LNB assembly affect its weathertightness in any way? Thanks!


Carl didn't have the correct splitters, as he posted, so he needed to power the LNBs with the "power source"..


----------



## carl6

veryoldschool said:


> Carl didn't have the correct splitters, as he posted, so he needed to power the LNBs with the "power source"..


Exactly - a real kluge but it works. With the proper combiners I would expect it to work without a power source, although a Sonora (which is also enroute but not yet here) is probably a good recommendation.

Carl


----------



## carl6

Cal Amp 5-LNB Slimline Dish Modification
by Carl6
December 2007

*NOTE: THIS MODIFICATION IS ONLY FOR THE CAL AMP LNB ASSEMBLY, IT IS NOT APPLICABLE TO THE WNC LNB ASSEMBLY.*

Taking the LNB assembly apart.

Keep in mind, everything you do you want to be reversible. The goal is to take the LNB assembly apart, modify it, then put it all back together so that it remains weather sealed and functional. So exercise care all along the way. Don't use force, you don't want to break anything.

The first step is to remove the large back plastic cover. This just snaps on, and is easily pried off using the tip of a flat-blade screwdriver. There are small "dimples" all around the inside surface of the cover that fit into indentations in the LNB assembly. You just need to snap them apart and pull the cover off. Photo S769 shows the back cover and the remaining LNB assembly.







Photo S769

Looking at the back of the LNB assembly with the plastic cover off, you can see that the back metal cover is completely sealed with silicon. Under that, there are six small phillips head screws that actually hold the cover on. Carefully remove all of the silicon. I started with a small flat-blade screwdriver and a small box cutter blade, and scraped out as much as I could. Then I used a wire brush wheel on a drill to clean it further. Finally, I used a tiny flat-blade to scrape the silicon out of the cross-head of the phillips screws so a screwdriver would properly fit in. Photo S771 shows the sealed assembly before taking it apart. These are small little screws, so be careful removing them - if you drop one it's a pain to find it (yes, I know from experience).







Photo S771

With the screws removed, you still need to carefully pry the metal back plate off of the LNB assembly. Photo S782 shows one corner with the screw out. I broke a couple of box cutter blades trying to use them, finally used a tiny flat-blade and got enough of a bite to pry the cover up, then it was easily pulled off. Photo S784 shows the unit with the metal back cover removed. You can still see a lot of silicon around the joining lip of the LNB assembly, you want to clean all that off before you put it back together so you get a good weather tight seal.







Photo S782







Photo S784

Photo S788 shows the entire LNB assembly and integrated multi-switch. The LNB's are from left to right in this picture are 99, 101, 103, 110 and 119. Our goal is to electrically disconnect 110 and 119. As you can see in the picture, they are connected to a separate circuit board (to the right side of the picture), and if you look carefully you can see three solder connections/jumpers between the main circuit board and the 110/119 circuit board. Photo S805 shows the three jumpers in detail.







Photo S788






Photo S805

Performing the Modification

This turned out to be really easy. Using a low wattage soldering iron and some copper solder-wick, I removed the solder from the three connections and pads on the main circuit board, and gently lifted the jumper bars up to clear those connections. I suppose you could also cut the three jumpers, but my intent was to keep this fully reversible, as I plan to restore the LNB to original function when I'm done testing. Photo S818 is a close up of the jumpers lifted.







Photo S818

Putting it back together.

As mentioned above (in the taking it apart section), you want to carefully remove all of the old silicon from the mating surfaces for the back cover. If you leave some, it can result in not getting a waterproof weather seal when you put the back cover back on. Photo S801 shows good detail of two of the screw holes, as well as the cleaned surface. Note at the bottom of the picture there are four white spots (just below four black squares). That is heat sink compound, not silicon. You want to get the silicon off, but leave the heat sink compound in place. As an aside, the entire circuit board in photo S801 is the internal four output multiswitch. The four coax connectors are in line with, and facing opposite, the four black squares.







Photo S801

Photo S846 shows the back cover reinstalled with the screws back in. It is ready to seal with a fresh silicon bead. Because I intend to reverse this modification, and because it isn't tested yet, I am no re-sealing with silicon for the testing phase.

Too many attachments. Photo S846 will be in another posting.

The final steps are to reseal with silicon, let it dry, then snap the plastic back cover back on. It is important to get a good, waterproof seal, with the silicon. You want these electronics to work for a long time out in the weather.

Testing - does it work?

First test was to use the modified 5-LNB assembly by itself to feed my HR20 and verify it worked as expected on 99/101/103 and did not provide signal on 110/119. It is working exactly as expected, and transponder signal strengths have been documented.

Second step is to use a set of combiners, and combine the modified 5-LNB with the Phase III dish.

When the combiners I ordered failed to show up today (wrong items sent), I decided to get innovative and created my own pair of combiners using six splitters and a Terk BMS58 powered multiswitch as a power source. Note, all the Terk is doing is providing power, I am not using it as a multiswitch. I'm using the power from it to lock the 13V 22KHz and 18V 22KHz lines to those values. Necessary due to the way I'm using the splitters to combine (they won't pass the power from the receiver/WB68 through to the dish).

SUCCESS! I am now getting 99/101/103 from the modified Slimline, and 110/119 from the Phase III. Works great.


----------



## carl6

Okay, here's the last picture that shows the back cover re-installed without silicon. Note that in the cleaning process I have also managed to remove some paint. I would touch up the paint also before final re-assembly to prevent future rusting. Then apply a new silicon bead all the way around.









I will draw a schematic of the "combiner" I created using splitters, and how I powered it, and post that a bit later today for those who are interested.

Once the proper parts are received (combiners and Sonora), I'll hook everything up "the right way" and test, then I'll also test with separate 110 and 119 dishes.

Once all that is proven, I intend to restore this 5-LNB to original function, then modify a WNC 5-LNB to prove it can be done the same way. Don't expect that for about another week, minimum.

Carl


----------



## veryoldschool

Anybody notice the crappy solder joints in Photo S805?
Make you wonder about the "bad" LNBs.


----------



## 248 F1

Carl,
You have obviously got a handle on the multiple dish issue. This guy seems to be in need of assistance. Do you make service calls?


----------



## veryoldschool

248 F1 said:


> Carl,
> You have obviously got a handle on the multiple dish issue. This guy seems to be in need of assistance. Do you make service calls?


I think he has cable too [for when he can't find something good to watch].


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## carl6

248 F1 said:


> Carl,
> You have obviously got a handle on the multiple dish issue. This guy seems to be in need of assistance. Do you make service calls?


I notice he is performing a dish alignment in this photo:lol:

Carl


----------



## carl6

Here is how I used six splitters and a power source to make my two combiners. The splitters have diode isolated power paths, which means they don't pass the dc voltages "backwards" through them. As a result, you can't just use a splitter as a combiner in this application because the 13 or 18 VDC needs to pass (the 22KHz also needs to pass, but it will, as will the satellite signal, it's just the DC that's the problem).









Carl

Edit: Hmmm, looks like some of the lines didn't post right, but I think you can fill in the gaps.


----------



## veryoldschool

carl6 said:


> Hmmm, looks like some of the lines didn't post right, but I think you can fill in the gaps.


It "seems" fine to me.


----------



## carl6

One more update. Just got a pair of the Channel Vision splitter/combiners delivered, and they DO work properly. I am now configured like the third solution shown in post 164 of this thread, except I'm (a) using the modified Slimline dish, (b) using the Channel Vision combiners, rather than the Holland, and (c) I am not using the Sonora.

Carl


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## litzdog911

Fantastic Carl! Excellent work.

I updated the summary post (#164) to link to your instructions and photos as a FOURTH option.


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## Mukbar

Have been following this thread with interest since last year. You guys should be commended for your sticktoittiveness and ingenuity. Great stuff. 

I’ve long enjoyed D* with my 1.8M dish (yes, 1.8M, don’t laugh – a remnant from a previous job that I’ve never bothered to update) with a dual LNB locked into the 101 satellite. I get cable as part of the HOA dues, so my interest in D* has always been for the ST and various other channels that all exist on the 101. 

Your efforts have me thinking about upgrading to HD. I see from Lyngsat that the channels I’m interested in all appear on the 103 and the 101 - no need for the 99, 110, or 119. I have an old 18” dual LNB dish in the garage that is collecting dust. My questions are:

1)	Can I set up that old 18” dish and tune into the 103 with it? Or do I need a special LNB to acquire a Ka signal?

2)	If I can indeed set up the old dish to capture the 103 (or use the 18” dish to get the 101 and set up the 1.8M to capture the 103), is there a way to combine the “signal” from the two dishes and connect it to my soon-to-be acquired H21? 

Sorry about such a long post from a newbie. I really have followed this thread closely, watched the Ka/Ku videos on SolidSignal and felt that you guys would be the appropriate forum for this inquiry. 

Thanks!


----------



## doctor j

I think you you use this lnb 99/101/103 kit and obtain all the channels except the MPEG 2 HD channels which should go to MPEG 4/Ka sometime next year.

http://www.thesatelliteshop.net/directv-dtv-99-101-103-lnb-kit-for-alaska-and-hawaii-p-148.html

The exact attachment and aiming of the lnb assembly might require some tuning but with the extra gain of the 1.8 m dish it shouldn't have to be too exact.

Doctor j


----------



## litzdog911

Mukbar said:


> .....
> 1)	Can I set up that old 18" dish and tune into the 103 with it? Or do I need a special LNB to acquire a Ka signal?
> 
> 2)	If I can indeed set up the old dish to capture the 103 (or use the 18" dish to get the 101 and set up the 1.8M to capture the 103), is there a way to combine the "signal" from the two dishes and connect it to my soon-to-be acquired H21?
> 
> ....


1. I'm not aware of any Ka-band LNB kit that will work with the 18" round dish. You need the special dish/LNB kit described by doctorj.

2. No, unless you use the special dish/LNBs described by doctorj.

For your situation it would probably be easiest to just get a SlimLine 5-LNB dish. DirecTV will provide and install one for free if you upgrade to an HD Receiver (H20/H21) or HD DVR (HR20/HR21).


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## carl6

Actually, the larger the diameter the dish, the narrow the focus at the satellite orbit. I'm not sure you could get a 1.8M dish to see 101 and 103 at the same time, even if you used the correct LNB. Unless it was a non-round dish specifically designed for that application.

If you are seriously interested in getting an H21, my suggestion would be to also get a Slimline dish for it.

Carl


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## Mukbar

Very helpful, guys. Thanks.

Let me see if I get this:

1)	The LNB kit mentioned by Doctor J in post 286 would work with my 1.8M dish, provided I could find a way to mount the LNB and adjust the dish properly. 

2)	And that LNB kit would allow me to obtain all the channels on the 103.

3)	Whether or not I could use the 1.8M dish to simultaneously get the 103 and 101 is not clear. In fact, I think that Carl is correct in that the focus of my 1.8 is likely too narrow to see both satellites at once. 

4)	Point taken (and a good point, at that) that I should just upgrade to a slimline.

5)	In theory, though, I *could* acquire the LNB kit, attach it to my 1.8 dish, lock that dish onto the 103….and then put up my 18” dish just for the 101. Correct?

6)	And, if D* is moving towards more MPEG4 channels on the 103, in the future I might be able to get away with my 1.8 dish together with the LNB kit locked into the 103. Make sense? Just trying to understand the technology differences/requirements for this Ka band stuff....and how it fits with the old gear.

Thanks again for your help.


----------



## doctor j

The DTVAHKAKUKIT is a Ka & KU LNB designed for the Pro Brand International (aka: Eagle-Aspen) 1.2 meter offset dish. Some info i've reviewed does address usage with a 1.8 m dish for even more "fringe" areas. The difference is that these dishes are offset as opposed to prime focus for C band sats. The LNB mounts can be adjustable as per FTA dishes and multiple sats can be seen , it just requires a lot more tweaking as opposed to the standard dishes with their focal points factory set.

Doctor j


----------



## Mukbar

I see and I get it, I think. 

So, the DTVAHKAKUKIT sees both Ka and Ku band signals, whereas the LNBs used on the old D* 18” dishes (and currently on my 1.8M dish) only see the Ku band.

By any chance, do you have a pic of that kit or a digital copy of the manual that might come with it? Since I like to tinker, I’m curious how I could mount it to my 1.8.

Finally, would the WB68 multiswitch allow me to combine the signals from the KuKa-kit and from the small dish locked into the 101, if I wanted to go that route? 

Thanks.


----------



## carl6

Also consider that 99 will have conus beams for expanded HD offerings after the next satellite launch. So in order to be prepared for all current and future HD offerings from DirecTV, you will need to also see 99.

With respect to using separate dishes for 101 and 103, you are going to have to find a way to have separate or isolated LNB's for each. If you use a combined 99/101/103 LNB, I'm not sure you would be able to use a separate 101 only and retain the ability to access both 99 and 103 (103 alone yes, 99 and 103 no) due to the way DirecTV has mixed 99/101 without tone and 103/110/119 with tone.

Carl


----------



## Mukbar

What I'm thinking, just for fun, is to use the combined LNB on my 1.8M dish to access only the 103 and then a separate LNB and dish to access only 101. From your post, Carl, I think that should work, right? As long as I'm not expecting to access the 103 AND 99 through the combined LNB....

As for next year....when the 99 starts carrying the conus beams, I could switch to a 2 dish setup, each with a combined LNB, with one accessing 99 and the other 103., yes?

Thanks.


----------



## carl6

Combining signals from multiple dishes will work when you do not have the same signal from both dishes at the same time.

Combining signals from multiple dishes will not work if you do have the same signal from both dishes at the same time.

What makes this complicated in trying to determine what can or cannot be mixed (as far as varying LNB assemblies) is the switching voltage/tone combinations that are used.

RHCP 13V: 99 odd, 101 odd
LHCP 18V: 99 even, 101 even
RHCP 13V 22KHz: 103 odd, 119 odd.
LHCP 18V 22KHz: 103 even, 110/119 even.

If you use a 3-LNB assembly designed for 99, 101, and 103, you will not be able to use a separate dish for 99 or 101, as there is no way to isolate that request in an external multiswitch.

So you could set up one dish for 99 and 101, and a second dish for 103, if your heart was set on doing so. But you could not set up one dish for 99 and a separate dish for 101. Even if the dish is not seeing the satellite, the LNB assembly is generating an IF frequency for it, and when you have the IF for a given satellite/polarization coming from two different LNB assemblies at the same time, they will conflict.

Carl


----------



## jbraden

Mukbar said:


> What I'm thinking, just for fun, is to use the combined LNB on my 1.8M dish to access only the 103 and then a separate LNB and dish to access only 101. From your post, Carl, I think that should work, right? As long as I'm not expecting to access the 103 AND 99 through the combined LNB....
> 
> As for next year....when the 99 starts carrying the conus beams, I could switch to a 2 dish setup, each with a combined LNB, with one accessing 99 and the other 103., yes?
> 
> Thanks.


You should be able to use a Zinwell 6x8 multiswitch to do as you describe, using two wires from the 101 dish to the non-tone inputs and two wires from the 103 dish to the 22KHz tone inputs. For now, that would get you a lot of the new Ka band HD channels. The dish you talk about for next year will need to pick up the 99 and 101 from the same combined LNB. On the other hand, DirecTV requires a 2-year committment whenever you activate an HD receiver or DVR, so assuming you've got a clear view, I agree with litzdog911 that you should just let them install a Slimline for free.


----------



## Mukbar

Thanks, folks. All very helpful. I think I now have a better understanding of how I might make the multi-dish setup work for me, if I decide to go that route, which I might be forced to given the dodgy (think forest) views that I have here.

A friend as a Super Buddy meter. Do I need the KaKu LNB in order to tune into the 103 at all or could I try to allign my current dish (with the old LNB) and see the 103? I assume I need the new LNB, even just to align the dish to the 103 but I want to double check.....


----------



## jbraden

Mukbar said:


> A friend has a Super Buddy meter. Do I need the KaKu LNB in order to tune into the 103 at all or could I try to allign my current dish (with the old LNB) and see the 103? I assume I need the new LNB, even just to align the dish to the 103 but I want to double check.....


You need the KaKu LNB. There are two satellites in the 103 slot, but they are both Ka band. The signals are stacked in three IF frequency ranges going to the multiswitch. Ka-Lo (250-750MHz) and Ka-Hi (1650-2150MHz) come from the 103 satellite, and Ku (950-1450 MHz) comes from the combined 110 and 119 satellites. These stacked signals go to the 22KHz tone side of the multiswitch. The 99 (Ka) and 101 (Ku) satellites are stacked the same way on the non-tone inputs of the multiswitch.


----------



## Mukbar

jbraden said:


> You need the KaKu LNB.
> 
> Great, thanks.
> 
> I'll get my hands on one of those KaKu LNBs and give it a shot. Haven't had any luck contacting thesatelliteshop.net via telephone/email but I'll keep trying. Want to get a pic of that LNB before I order it, so I know what sort of mounting gear I might need to fabricate in order to fix that LNB to my 1.8 dish.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Mukbar,
If you do need to go the multi-dish route and are looking for an AT9 (Sidecar) dish, in order to do a multi-dish installation, let me know. I still have one left. I thought that I needed a multi-dish install because the DirecTV installer told me that I didn't have LOS and then the guy that I hired proved the first guy wrong.

I've already sold one to a DBSTalk member and would rather sell the other one to someone here rather than selling it on ebay.


----------



## Hamese

About this time last year I posted in here with my solution for using a second dish for the 110 sat in conjunction with a slimline for all others. It was a simple solution that worked for a while and basically was the same as below without the sonora. I since lost signal to the 110 because of tress again... possibly, but I have realigned and gained signal again.

Last night I was going though everything and when I came across a channel that I know is on the 110, like TNT-HD, I saw flashes of other channels and with different audio. A message appeared talking about a problem with the multiswitch. My local HD channels also stopped working. When I unplugged the Satc cable then all started working again, except channels from 110.

I guess my question is, would this option be viable since I do not need a seperate dish for the 119?










Another reason why I might have a multiswitch problem is because the signal I believe is from the 110 is actually from another sat. I do not really think this is true, but it might be possible.


----------



## jbraden

Hamese said:


> About this time last year I posted in here with my solution for using a second dish for the 110 sat in conjunction with a slimline for all others. It was a simple solution that worked for a while and basically was the same as below without the sonora. I since lost signal to the 110 because of tress again... possibly, but I have realigned and gained signal again.
> 
> Last night I was going though everything and when I came across a channel that I know is on the 110, like TNT-HD, I saw flashes of other channels and with different audio. A message appeared talking about a problem with the multiswitch. My local HD channels also stopped working. When I unplugged the Satc cable then all started working again, except channels from 110.
> 
> I guess my question is, would this option be viable since I do not need a seperate dish for the 119?


It has been shown that the IF from the LNBs used for the 119/110 satellite combination interferes with signals from a second dish, and that may be why you are seeing flashes of other channels, different audio, etc. I saw that you had this working previously, and don't know what changed, but possibly the 110 LNB on your Slimline is now picking up some signal itself. In any case, I'd expect there is greater risk of interference with your approach than with some of the others. Carl has been working to come up with a way to modify the Slimline dish to disconnect the 110/119 LNBs, and his success is documented in posts of a few days ago. This modified Slimline dish can then be combined with either a Phase III or two separate dishes for 110 and 119 using the methods described in post #164.


----------



## veryoldschool

Hamese said:


> About this time last year I posted in here with my solution for using a second dish for the 110 sat in conjunction with a slimline for all others. It was a simple solution that worked for a while and basically was the same as below without the sonora. I since lost signal to the 110 because of tress again... possibly, but I have realigned and gained signal again.
> 
> Last night I was going though everything and when I came across a channel that I know is on the 110, like TNT-HD, I saw flashes of other channels and with different audio. A message appeared talking about a problem with the multiswitch. My local HD channels also stopped working. When I unplugged the Satc cable then all started working again, except channels from 110.
> 
> I guess my question is, would this option be viable since I do not need a seperate dish for the 119?
> 
> Another reason why I might have a multiswitch problem is because the signal I believe is from the 110 is actually from another sat. I do not really think this is true, but it might be possible.


If you could disconnect the 110 LNB in the slimline, it "should work".


----------



## Hamese

Thanks for the responses. I saw the post about hacking into the slimline LNB and disconnecting the 110/119. That might be an option for me too. I believe it is not working because of the user 

It stopped picking up 110 in the spring and I was sure it was because of the growth. Last night I went back on the roof to try to realign since we are back in winter. This afternoon after my post I went back to look at the dish and I am now sure that I was hitting a different satellite, so I am now back to finding someone to trim my tree so I can get back to the 110. I know that when I get the 110 signal again, I'll be in business. I bought the Sonora because it was cheap enough that someone said "Why not have it?".

So I learned not to align the dish in the dark :lol:

I just upgraded to an HR20 so a tech is coming out on Thursday to "install it" I wonder what they will say about my dual dishes.... anyone know how that might go? Since D* doesn't support it I would imagine he wont touch it and just install the receiver.


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## doctor j

Pictures of the DTVAHKAKUKIT 99/101/103 LNB.
Will post full 1.2m dish for 99/101/103 only when assembled.
Also plan to combine with phase 3 for 110/119.
Wil post results when tests complete.

Doctor j


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## Mukbar

Thanks, Doctor j. As far as I know, those pictures you posted are the only ones online that show the multi-LNB kit for the 1.2M dish. None of the vendors (that I know of) have pictures of the unit. Much appreciated.

Speaking of the vendors, I was told by one that this particular LNB kit will NOT function with a 1.8M dish....because the LNB was designed specifically for a 1.2M dish that is available. Can that be right?

Given all of your collective experience and wisdom, can you guys envision a likely scenario in which the LNB will work on a 1.2M dish and NOT on my 1.8M dish? My knowledge is admittedly limited, so perhaps I'm naive to think that it should work on larger dish too, particularly if I'm only interested in accessing the 103 bird.

Thoughts?


----------



## jbraden

Mukbar said:


> Thanks, Doctor j. As far as I know, those pictures you posted are the only ones online that show the multi-LNB kit for the 1.2M dish. None of the vendors (that I know of) have pictures of the unit. Much appreciated.
> 
> Speaking of the vendors, I was told by one that this particular LNB kit will NOT function with a 1.8M dish....because the LNB was designed specifically for a 1.2M dish that is available. Can that be right?
> 
> Given all of your collective experience and wisdom, can you guys envision a likely scenario in which the LNB will work on a 1.2M dish and NOT on my 1.8M dish? My knowledge is admittedly limited, so perhaps I'm naive to think that it should work on larger dish too, particularly if I'm only interested in accessing the 103 bird.
> 
> Thoughts?


I think the issue is whether this is a parabolic or elliptical dish. If you only want a single satellite, it should be possible to mount the LNB slightly offset with the feed horn for the 103 LNB at the single focal point of a parabolic dish. If you want all three satellites, the signal strength will drop off on either side of the single focal point, and although you can get great signal strength on the 101 in the center you won't be getting much signal for the 99 and 103 LNBs. The larger the dish, the tighter this focus becomes. With an elliptical dish, the LNB assembly can be mounted with the 99 and 103 feed horns at the two foci of the dish, and you should have good signal strength on a line between these two locations as well, which would include the 101 feed horn. From what I've read, I believe the 1.2 meter dish is an offset elliptical type designed for this LNB assembly.


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## Mukbar

That makes sense. 

Is it safe to assume that the 103 feed horn is the one furthest to the right in the above picture #1 (the first picture Doctor J posted)? So, from left to right, it would go 99, 101, 103? 

If so, I can probably figure out a way to mount the LNB-kit with the 103 feedhorn at the focal point of my 1.8M dish. At least, I think I can.....


----------



## jbraden

Mukbar said:


> That makes sense.
> 
> Is it safe to assume that the 103 feed horn is the one furthest to the right in the above picture #1 (the first picture Doctor J posted)? So, from left to right, it would go 99, 101, 103?
> 
> If so, I can probably figure out a way to mount the LNB-kit with the 103 feedhorn at the focal point of my 1.8M dish. At least, I think I can.....


No, I think it's the other way... 103, 101, 99. Remember, the LNB is oriented this way when attached to the dish. The 99 satellite is farthest to the left, so signal from that satellite will reflect off the dish and go to the LNB on the right. Signals coming from the rightmost satellite will be reflected to the LNB on the left. I wonder a little about the possibility of overdriving this LNB and actually having too strong a signal. With a 1.8m parabolic dish focussed on a single satellite, you should be able to put a lot of energy into that LNB.


----------



## carl6

I finally got enough time to try and put up separate 110 and 119 dishes to test. While I was able to borrow a Sat C LNB, I was not able to borrow a Sat C combiner. I set up the 3-dish (99/101/103, 110, 119) system using a regular combiner for the Sat C dish and it did not work.

I see absolutely no reason that it shouldn't work, other than the lack of the proper Sat C combiner. In fact, bypassing the Sat C combiner and leaving 119 disconnected, I did get 110 to work. I just couldn't get 110 to work while 119 was connected.

I reconfigured back to a 2-dish (modified Slimline and Phase III) and it still worked.

Then I reversed the modification on the 5-LNB assembly, re-connecting the 110/119 circuit board by soldering the three jumpers back in place. Re-installed and it now works just like new as a single, 5-LNB dish.

The next step in the overall process will be taking apart a WNC 5-LNB assembly and modifying it to confirm the same process will work with the WNC. All the work up to this point was with a CalAmp LNB assembly. Once I do that, I'll post the results.

Carl


----------



## Bill Broderick

Do you want a Sat C combiner? I have an unused one from my old setup. If so, let me know.


----------



## jbraden

carl6 said:


> I finally got enough time to try and put up separate 110 and 119 dishes to test. While I was able to borrow a Sat C LNB, I was not able to borrow a Sat C combiner. I set up the 3-dish (99/101/103, 110, 119) system using a regular combiner for the Sat C dish and it did not work.
> 
> I see absolutely no reason that it shouldn't work, other than the lack of the proper Sat C combiner. In fact, bypassing the Sat C combiner and leaving 119 disconnected, I did get 110 to work. I just couldn't get 110 to work while 119 was connected.
> Carl


I've got a feeling the Sat C combiner isn't just a simple combiner. I think it's got a notch filter for the 110 transponder frequencies on the 119 input side. I suspect that's why Hamese was successful combining a 110 dish with a Slimline dish and didn't have the IF interference problems seen when trying to combine the Slimline with both 119 and 110 dishes. It may also have a corresponding bandpass filter on the 110 input side.


----------



## veryoldschool

jbraden said:


> I've got a feeling the Sat C combiner isn't just a simple combiner. I think it's got a notch filter for the 110 transponder frequencies on the 119 input side. I suspect that's why Hamese was successful combining a 110 dish with a Slimline dish and didn't have the IF interference problems seen when trying to combine the Slimline with both 119 and 110 dishes. It may also have a corresponding bandpass filter on the 110 input side.


If this were so, wouldn't litzdog911 & doctor j have had problems with the first proven mock-up that isn't using them?
Also why would the combiner have filters for the Ka-hi that wasn't used back then?
"I think" the SAT C combiner is just one that will pass dc through both ports in the correct direction, which was the "trick" in the first place to get this to work.


----------



## jbraden

veryoldschool said:


> If this were so, wouldn't litzdog911 & doctor j have had problems with the first proven mock-up that isn't using them?
> Also why would the combiner have filters for the Ka-hi that wasn't used back then?
> "I think" the SAT C combiner is just one that will pass dc through both ports in the correct direction, which was the "trick" in the first place to get this to work.


Which proven mock-up was that? I apparently missed that post. All of the currently validated solutions listed in litzdog911's post #164 use either a SAT C combiner or a dish with a multiswitch that has that functionality built in. I'm sure that Carl is supplying power to the LNBs correctly, and I don't know what else would explain his problems using a standard combiner instead of the SAT C.


----------



## litzdog911

jbraden said:


> Which proven mock-up was that? I apparently missed that post. All of the currently validated solutions listed in litzdog911's post #164 use either a SAT C combiner or a dish with a multiswitch that has that functionality built in. I'm sure that Carl is supplying power to the LNBs correctly, and I don't know what else would explain his problems using a standard combiner instead of the SAT C.


He's talking about the first diagram here ....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1079192&postcount=164

I think the difference is that the AT9's 110/119 sidecar LNB already takes care of the SatC combination.


----------



## carl6

Bill Broderick said:


> Do you want a Sat C combiner? I have an unused one from my old setup. If so, let me know.


No. I'm very confident that the modified slimline will work with separate 110/119 dishes using a proper Sat C combiner, given that it works with the Phase III. I need to return the borrowed Sat C LNB, and do not personally have a need for a multi-dish solution. I'm only doing this to test the Slimline modifications.

Thanks anyway.

Carl


----------



## jbraden

I searched through other threads on DBSTalk and found something a little more definitive on how the SAT C combiner works. As I suspected, there's a filter on the 119 side, but the whole story is even more complicated than that. Here's what DarinC says about this combiner:



DarinC said:


> It's a component used to combine the satellite signals from the 110 and 119 slots on DirecTV systems. DirecTV only has transponders 28, 30, and 32 at 110, and 22-32 on 119. Even added together, that's less than a full satellite (which would be 32 transponders). So rather than implement multiswitches that would have to switch between three satellites, they combine the two signals together into one, so 110 and 119 LOOK like one satellite to the receivers. But as you can see, transponders 28, 30, and 32 exist in both locations. The signals couldn't be combined as-is, because they'd interfere with each other. One of the jobs an LNB does is shifts the frequencies of the microwave signals it receives down to a range of frequencies low enough to work with the wiring and receivers we use. For this combining to work, a special LNB is used for 110 that applies a different amount of shifting, so that the information on transponders 28, 30, and 32 gets shifted a little lower, to the frequencies that would normally be used by transponders 8, 10, and 12. That gets them out of the way of the transponders that are used by DirecTV at 119, but transponders 8, 10, and 12 (and all the other ones) are still received from 119, as Dish Network broadcasts on those. So the combiner has to filter out transponders below the range that DirecTV uses at 119, so that signal can be combined with the lowered transponders coming from the Sat-C LNB without interference from the DishNetwork signals.


Based on this I'm curious as to whether or not Hamese is receiving all of the Ka signals on 103, or only the Ka-Hi signals with his setup. If DirecTV just put a high-pass filter on 119 rather than a notch filter, the SAT C combiner could be filtering out the Ka-Lo LHCP frequencies as well as the Dish network ones.


----------



## Mukbar

jbraden said:


> No, I think it's the other way... 103, 101, 99. Remember, the LNB is oriented this way when attached to the dish.... With a 1.8m parabolic dish focussed on a single satellite, you should be able to put a lot of energy into that LNB.


Thanks for setting me straight on the left-right issue.

Hadn't considered the possibility of overwhelming the LNB with too strong of a signal. If I find that's the case, I wonder if I can adjust the location of the entire LNB to make the 103 a bit out of focus, if you will.

I've put the wheels in motion to get my hands on one of these LNBs and will fabricate some sort of attachment device thereafter. I will post my results, regardless of what happens, though it might not be until the new year.


----------



## doctor j

MUKBAR :

I wish you good luck onyour modifications.
Always good to have others trying new combinations to push the limits of our understanding of the equiptment.

Doctor j


----------



## carl6

I have my WNC 5-LNB Slimline LNB assembly open, and a quick inspection shows it is not going to be as easily or readily modified as the CalAmp was.

There is not a separate circuit card for the 110 and 119 LNB's, however there is still a separate circuit card for the internal multiswitch. It might be possible to isolate the 110/119 inputs to that multiswitch and get the LNB to work as a 3-LNB (99/101/103), but it's going to be a shot in the dark operation, trying jumpers one or two at a time to see if I can identify and isolate those two inputs.

I've got pictures, but they are too high res to upload right now. I'll down-res them tomorrow and post.

If anyone out there has design level information on the WNC 5-LNB assembly, a private (even anonimous) message as to what's going on there would sure facilitate this process.

Carl


----------



## litzdog911

carl6 said:


> I have my WNC 5-LNB Slimline LNB assembly open, and a quick inspection shows it is not going to be as easily or readily modified as the CalAmp was.
> 
> There is not a separate circuit card for the 110 and 119 LNB's, however there is still a separate circuit card for the internal multiswitch. It might be possible to isolate the 110/119 inputs to that multiswitch and get the LNB to work as a 3-LNB (99/101/103), but it's going to be a shot in the dark operation, trying jumpers one or two at a time to see if I can identify and isolate those two inputs.
> 
> I've got pictures, but they are too high res to upload right now. I'll down-res them tomorrow and post.
> 
> If anyone out there has design level information on the WNC 5-LNB assembly, a private (even anonimous) message as to what's going on there would sure facilitate this process.
> 
> Carl


Wow, a totally different circuit board layout. Is it possible to isolate where the LNBs are powered from the circuit board? Or identify their inputs into the circuit board's multiswitch? If you can post some closeup photos of the board we might be able to provide some ideas.


----------



## carl6

Okay, here are some pictures of the WNC LNB assembly. First picture shows the back before the cover removal, with about half the sealant removed. Totally different type of sealant, more a ruberized potting than the silicon on the Cal Amp. Also this back cover has only a single screw holding it on, which is a torx in the center.








The next series of pictures are inside moving from right to left - with 119 on the far right, 110, 103, 101 and 99 on the left. Here you can see that unlike the CalAmp, the 103, 110 and 119 are on one circuit board, and the 99 and 101 are on a separate circuit board. It's hard to see the division between them as it's well concealed under the LNB housings.





























The last picture is a closeup of the multiswitch. Here you can see the jumpers from the other circuit boards. Six of the jumpers are active signal paths and the remainder are grounds. There appear to be three active jumpers from each of the two major LNB circuit board assemblies, in addition to the grounds.








The challenge here is trying to figure out how to isolate 110 and 119 without shutting off 103 (which is on the same circuit board) and also without shutting off 99 and 101 (on the other circuit board).

I no longer have access to nifty gadgets like spectrum analyzers to test signals on the active jumpers, so at this point I might try lifting jumpers one or two at a time to see if I can accomplish the 110/119 isolation. I'm not too confident on this LNB, unlike the CalAmp which was obvious.

I welcome any suggestions on how to proceed, or things to try.

Carl


----------



## carl6

Don't think this one will be able to be modified. Just spent some time with a really good magnifying glass...

The three jumpers to each board from the multiswitch have labels. The ones to the right (in these pictures - to the 103/110/119) are labeled as DC to tone, 13VT and 18VT. The three to the other (left) side are labeled as DC to NT, 13NT and 18NT.

What that means is that they are combining 103, 110 and 119 prior to the multiswitch circuit board, so there is no easy way to isolate 110 and 119 by lifting a jumper.

I don't know if removing the actual receivers (under/part of the big metal housing for each LNB) would cut the IF output, or if it would essentially accomplish no more than putting foil over the LNB (which has already been proven to not work).

I'm also concerned that if I do remove those, I will have disassembled beyond the point of being able to reverse the modification, and with a fairly good probability that it won't accomplish the objective. The risk outweighs the potential reward.

So unless someone has a suggestion as to how to approach this, I'm thinking seriously about not going further on this LNB assembly. I am most open to suggestions, and if anyone wants more detailed/higher resolution photos, I'll be happy to email them.

Carl


----------



## veryoldschool

I think a wise man would STOP.


----------



## litzdog911

I agree Carl. I think modifying this version of the AU9 Slimline is beyond reasonable. Good thing you checked both versions.


----------



## Hamese

jbraden said:


> I searched through other threads on DBSTalk and found something a little more definitive on how the SAT C combiner works. As I suspected, there's a filter on the 119 side, but the whole story is even more complicated than that. Here's what DarinC says about this combiner:
> 
> Based on this I'm curious as to whether or not Hamese is receiving all of the Ka signals on 103, or only the Ka-Hi signals with his setup. If DirecTV just put a high-pass filter on 119 rather than a notch filter, the SAT C combiner could be filtering out the Ka-Lo LHCP frequencies as well as the Dish network ones.


I believe I am receiving the all of the signals from the 103... I'll have to verify, but my locals are on 103 and I was not having a problem while connected with the seperate dish for the 110 and the SatC combiner. D* was out yesterday hooking up my HD DVR, so I asked them to tweak my alignment and make sure my slimline LNB was fully functional. We agreed the tree was in the way of the 110, and they were impressed with my alignment and my setup with two dishes.

Since I am still having tree issues with my 110 dish, the combiner is not connect right now. I'm either going to do some tree trimming or move the dish again before I connect the 110 back up. I can hook the combiner back up without the 110 just to see if it is filtering the 103 signal, but does the 103 have an 18v 22Hz signal? I thought that was just the 110 and 119.


----------



## veryoldschool

Hamese said:


> I can hook the combiner back up without the 110 just to see if it is filtering the 103 signal, but does the 103 have an 18v 22Hz signal? I thought that was just the 110 and 119.


103 shares the tone and 99 shares the "no tone" voltages.


----------



## doctor j

I can confirmed another 2 Dish solution.

I assembled a DTVAH12DISH with a DTVAHKAKUKIT which is a 1.2 meter dish with a special LNB assembly which has a 99/101/103 LNB. It also has a 110/119 multiswitch builtin. I did not use that however since it requires the special companion DTVAH1019KIT for the 110 and 119 LNB's that fit another 1.2 meter dish. I used the 3 LNB Phase 3 dish with combiners on line 3 & 4 as previously reported. This added the 110 and 119 with very good signals.

Pix enclosed. I have a slimline AU-9s for comparison. The DTVAH dish clearly is a BUD. It also was a bit more difficult to aline than I expected. The signal strengths are outstanding but the focal point is smaller and thus a bit more exact aiming was required. I used a super buddy meter with dithering on the Az & El adjustments looking at an active transponder on either 99 or 103.

Doctor j


----------



## doctor j

Pix of signal strength from DTVAHKAKUKIT for 99/101/103 combined with Phase III 3 lnb for 110 &119.

Doctor j


----------



## litzdog911

doctor j said:


> Pix of signal strength from DTVAHKAKUKIT for 99/101/103 combined with Phase III 3 lnb for 110 &119.
> 
> Doctor j


Nice work! Those are some awesome signal readings!

I'll update the summary post here with a link to your information.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1079192&postcount=164


----------



## carl6

Good work, thanks for the effort and for sharing.

Carl


----------



## LenV

carl6 said:


> Good work, thanks for the effort and for sharing.
> 
> Carl


Thanks for all the great trail blazing and info. I've gone from zero knowledge to almost ready in 2 weeks.

Have my Phase III and WB68, waiting for AU9 (will do surgury) and Super Buddy.

May have to go to two 18s for 110 & 119, very narrow LOS window.

Detail Questions; With about 140' dish to revievers, should I go ahead and use amplification? Where, what, how? (Can we assume Sonora equipment?)

TIA
LenV


----------



## carl6

LenV said:


> Have my Phase III and WB68, waiting for AU9 (will do surgury) and Super Buddy.


Make sure it is the correct LNB manufacturer.Cal Amp can be modified, WNC can't.


LenV said:


> May have to go to two 18s for 110 & 119, very narrow LOS window.


In which case you must have the specific Sat C LNB and Sat C combiner.


LenV said:


> Detail Questions; With about 140' dish to revievers, should I go ahead and use amplification? Where, what, how? (Can we assume Sonora equipment?)


I would try without amplification, but would use the Sonora power inserter/phase locker. The primary issue with long coax runs and high-def is LNB power draw, not rf signal attenuation. If you do have signal level problems, then look at amplification.

The power draw issue is probably greater with separate dishes than with a combined 5-LNB. I didn't measure that (maybe should have), but my guess is using 3 LNB's in a modified slimline plus either a Phase III or two round dishes is going to demand more power than a normal 5-LNB.

Carl


----------



## doctor j

I agree with carl6.
Although 140' can probable be done with no problem, the issue is voltage drop so that the multiswitch can't change 13v 18v to change polarization. The power inserter / polarity locker eliminates that worry maybe even up to 250 ft or so with good RG-6 solid copper cable.

Doctor j


----------



## LenV

doctor j said:


> I agree with carl6.
> Although 140' can probable be done with no problem, the issue is voltage drop so that the multiswitch can't change 13v 18v to change polarization. The power inserter / polarity locker eliminates that worry maybe even up to 250 ft or so with good RG-6 solid copper cable.
> 
> Doctor j


OK, I'll stick in the Sonorra then per the original scheme in this thread.

Thanks for the reminders - Yes, the dealer assured me he had CalAmp units (as well as WNC) and would send the CalAmp. Should know soon.

I've about memorized these 200+ posts on this thread - I will find some sort of very basic, stupid mistake to make that you guys wouldn't think of.

The Super Buddy is in a container somewhere, so it will be awhile before I can confirm LOS/acquisition. Then too, the ground is frozen and putting in posts may need to wait until March (GRRRR).

LenV


----------



## LenV

[QUOTE=a Sonora HRPID 1422 polarity locker and power inserter,... The four outputs of the Sonora go to the four inputs of a Zinwell WB68 multiswitch, as shown in the previous drawing, and the outputs of the multiswitch connect to the satellite receivers.

Can you please tell me what you are using, or what I can buy, to use as the 24v power source, with what looks like an F type connector into the Sonora hrpid1422?
btw, 1422s seem to be totally backordered at present....waiting.

My second question may be (also?) dumb....what are folks doing to ground this dishes? My modified AU9 and Phase III will be "over the river and through the woods" 100 feet away from the house (central ground).

thanks,
LenV


----------



## veryoldschool

LenV said:


> Can you please tell me what you are using, or what I can buy, to use as the 24v power source, with what looks like an F type connector into the Sonora hrpid1422?
> btw, 1422s seem to be totally backordered at present....waiting.
> 
> My second question may be (also?) dumb....what are folks doing to ground this dishes? My modified AU9 and Phase III will be "over the river and through the woods" 100 feet away from the house (central ground).
> 
> thanks,
> LenV


It should come with one of these: http://www.sonoradesign.com/product_info.php?products_id=365&osCsid=199c783dea583445430e3ff13be06b5c


----------



## Bill Broderick

The Sonora comes with a Power adapter with a female F-Connector. It also has a dual male connector so that it can be conected to the Power Inserter without additional Coax. If the power inserter will be installed away from a power outlet, you can use a standard coax cable to connect the power adapter to the power inserter.

Here is the HRPID1422 manual, showing the power adapter (it doesn't show the double male connector.


----------



## jbraden

LenV said:


> btw, 1422s seem to be totally backordered at present....waiting.


You can try hooking things up without the Sonora and see if it works... it may be OK with runs of 140' if you have solid copper cable. The Sonora is extra insurance, but may not be required, and can be added whenever they're back in stock if you run into problems.


----------



## LenV

jbraden said:


> You can try hooking things up without the Sonora and see if it works... it may be OK with runs of 140' if you have solid copper cable. The Sonora is extra insurance, but may not be required, and can be added whenever they're back in stock if you run into problems.


Yes, worth a try. AU 9 arrived an hour ago, but it will be to 2-3 weeks for my super buddy.

LenV


----------



## doctor j

The AU-9 can be aimed using the meter on an H-20 or HR-20 if you can get it close to the site or a partner and cell phone or walkie talkie. Sometimes it takes a while to fine tune but if the mast is level and plumb, the tilt and elevation preset correctly and a compass to get a close estimate of Azimuth, you can usually get a workable signal fairly quickly. Dither the Az and El using the 103 b signals. This can often take more time but is just as accurate if not better than the meters. Just not as quick or convenient.

Beats waiting 2 weeks!
Good Luck!!

Doctor j


----------



## doctor j

Spreadsheet of recent test comparing actual power (dBm) levels of directv dishes.
3 LNB Phase III vs AU-9s Slimline vs DTVAH12DISH 1.2 meter Prolin dish. 
Measured by Super Buddy meter
4 ft dish is awesome in it's power levels.
Slimline may not have been peaked as well for Ka signals as I usually get but these numbers are for Ku 101 sat only and I believe truly reflect the power relative to collection surface area. Ka levels were similar. No Ka readings for 3 lnb.

Doctor j


----------



## Mukbar

Thanks, Doctor j. Very interesting. 

Related to what you've found with the 1.2M dish (I think) is that my 1.8 with one LNB (bulb, for lack of the correct term) actually picks up strong signals on 101, 110, and 119. I'm not exactly sure how that's possible but when setting up my H21 (as many of you have followed in another thread), if I select a 3-LNB dish setup, I can see strong readings for the 3 TSPs on 110 and the 8-9 TSPs on 119.

Of course, I still can't get my H21 to go past "acquiring satellite info...." but the prowess of the 1.8M dish is pretty cool, I think.


----------



## jbraden

doctor j said:


> Spreadsheet of recent test comparing actual power (dBm) levels of directv dishes.
> 3 LNB Phase III vs AU-9s Slimline vs DTVAH12DISH 1.2 meter Prolin dish.
> Measured by Super Buddy meter
> 4 ft dish is awesome in it's power levels.
> Slimline may not have been peaked as well for Ka signals as I usually get but these numbers are for Ku 101 sat only and I believe truly reflect the power relative to collection surface area. Ka levels were similar. No Ka readings for 3 lnb.
> 
> Doctor j


Wow... this is awesome data Doctor J. Thank you for the outstanding work you've done to unravel the mysteries of the DTVAHKAKUKIT. In your spreadsheet, I noticed that there's about a 10dBm drop in signal strength for the "combo" readings on the 103 satellite vs. the direct readings. Does that reflect losses through the combiner and the Sonora power inserter? If so, comparing the levels for 99 shows about a 2dBm drop through the Sonora alone, which would mean about 8dBm is due to the combiners. It would be interesting to compare the various splittters (like Holland HFS-2P, Channel Vision HFS2, Skywalker SP2WAPHL, others?) to see which has the best performance. It looks like you've got the perfect setup for this. Also, is the Super Buddy meter only able to select 6 transponders on each of the Ka bands? Are these Ka-Hi (103a) or Ka-Lo (103b)? On the H20's signal level screen, I see 16 active transponder slots for each of these bands. Thanks again for all of this great research!


----------



## doctor j

jbraden:

You are correct. The combo readings are thru the Holland 2 way splitters , the Sonora polarity locker (HRPID1422) AND a Zinwell WB68. The better DTVAH readings are just off the lnb alone. The splitter itself should only have a 3.5 to 4 dB loss. I think there may be about 3 dB loss with each of the 3 devices .

I have Channel Master and Holland splitters. Can try to compare the two but subjectively don't expect much difference. Will check in line with one of my full setups and report any differences later.

The Super Buddy meter with the most recent software update does only "see" 6 transponders on 99s (b) and 103s (a). It does not measure ANY Ka low [103c (b)] signals. I'm not certain if this can be changed with a software upgrade or will require a full hardware change. I was not aware of this limitation until performing these proof of performance studies!!

I have an Accutrac III meter but it only gives a relative signal strength on Ka High or Ka Low.
The BirdDog meter only does Ku but it is the easiest to use to get the rough fine tune on any of the dishes I've worked with.

Doctor j


----------



## tuff bob

doctor j;

I' wondering if you are getting "too much" signal on the 1.2M dish to get a really good alignment ... one trick I've heard is the wet rag over the front of the lnb in order to reduce the signal strength so you can align better ... what are your thoughts? I'd love to have a 1.2M dish for rain fade but the wife won't go for it :lol:


----------



## tuff bob

Mukbar said:


> actually picks up strong signals on 101, 110, and 119. I'm not exactly sure how that's possible but when setting up my H21 (as many of you have followed in another thread), if I select a 3-LNB dish setup, I can see strong readings for the 3 TSPs on 110 and the 8-9 TSPs on 119.


if your 1.8M dish is picking up strong signals on 101, 110 and 119 and its the only dish connected, it is because its the only dish connected and its ignoring the 22kHz tone to switch to the 110/119 location. You're basically seeing the transponders at 101 - they work on the same frequencies. Set your IRD to just the 101 satellite (round dish) and I bet you get past the aquiring signal issues.


----------



## carl6

Mukbar said:


> Thanks, Doctor j. Very interesting.
> 
> Related to what you've found with the 1.2M dish (I think) is that my 1.8 with one LNB (bulb, for lack of the correct term) actually picks up strong signals on 101, 110, and 119. I'm not exactly sure how that's possible but when setting up my H21 (as many of you have followed in another thread), if I select a 3-LNB dish setup, I can see strong readings for the 3 TSPs on 110 and the 8-9 TSPs on 119.
> 
> Of course, I still can't get my H21 to go past "acquiring satellite info...." but the prowess of the 1.8M dish is pretty cool, I think.


Tuff Bob hit the nail on the head. All you are really seeing is 101, and the reason you are stuck on acquiring satellite info is because it is trying to get signal from 110 and/or 119 and not succeeding.

There is no way a 1.8 M dish would be able to see three satellites that far apart. I'm not sure it could even see 99 and 101, or 101 and 103. The larger the dish, the smaller the focal point at distance (and thus the more difficult to align).

If you have the dish connected directly to the receiver, it is not a valid test of 110 and 119 signal strength. Put a multiswitch in the middle with the big dish connected to the 13V and 18V no tone inputs.

Carl


----------



## tvhawaii

carl6 said:


> Tuff Bob hit the nail on the head. All you are really seeing is 101, and the reason you are stuck on acquiring satellite info is because it is trying to get signal from 110 and/or 119 and not succeeding.
> 
> There is no way a 1.8 M dish would be able to see three satellites that far apart. I'm not sure it could even see 99 and 101, or 101 and 103. The larger the dish, the smaller the focal point at distance (and thus the more difficult to align).
> 
> If you have the dish connected directly to the receiver, it is not a valid test of 110 and 119 signal strength. Put a multiswitch in the middle with the big dish connected to the 13V and 18V no tone inputs.
> 
> Carl


Actually, you -can- see 101/110/119 with a 1.2, 1.8, and 2.4m reflector. I used a Birdog and a 'stardard' LNB to get the locations, then substituted the Sat C at 110 (boresighted). This was to get the NFL Sunday Ticket and Commercial Choice Plus, so Ka band wasn't a concern at the time.
On the 1.2, I was lucky in that I was able to get good sigs. on 99/101/103 using the DTVAHKAKU LNB, and this wasn't on the 1.2m which it was made for.
I doubt that LNB will work on the 1.8, but I'm going to give it a go next week just to see the numbers.
The 119 slot on the 1.2 is weak (65-75), but the 1.8 and the 2.4 are 90-100.

--Michael


----------



## doctor j

tvhawaii :
I'm very interested in your results using the KAKUKIT lnb on a 1.8 m dish. 
I'm trying the other direction, attaching it to a fortec 1 meter dish.
Will post pix and signal results hopefully this weekend.
I'm making an lnb arm from either 1" EMT or 1 1/4" 18gauge tubing to attach the lNB kit. Getting the focal point right may be my biggest problem.

Doctor j


----------



## LenV

Making first preliminary test for LOS ( I am sure I am clear) and lock-on with multidish set-up (Phase III and modified Slimline). With Superbuddy,connected to the first (left) output of Phase III, I immediatly see 101 at sig strength of 92 and 110 at ss 91, with no attempt yet at dialing in. No sign of 110.
The SB lists D* "Triple Sat Stacked" and "Triple Sat ( Sat C)", but reults so far are identicle. Granted, I have 30" experience with the superbuddy.


I do not have a reciever yet. This is all pre-installer work.

Do I need to connect to a different output to find the 110 bird? Which two, etc.

How do I not get the 101 feed ( or do I misunderstand that 101 must ONLY come from the AU9)?

Maybe just a setting change on meter? It gives me LNB1 or LNB2 22K. Is the 22k a different output?
It's 9degrees out here and I think my brain has frozen. Do I move the dish to the west so it can't see the 101, only the 110 & 119?

Sorry for the brainfade. Thanks in advance, while I thaw out.

Len


----------



## veryoldschool

101 is driven [selected] with the 13 & 18 volt NO tone signal. If you only send 13 & 18 Volts with 22 kHz tone, you'll have the 110 & 119 LNBs active. You can't really turn it away for one SAT and still have the others.


----------



## LenV

veryoldschool said:


> 101 is driven [selected] with the 13 & 18 volt NO tone signal. If you only send 13 & 18 Volts with 22 kHz tone, you'll have the 110 & 119 LNBs active. You can't really turn it away for one SAT and still have the others.


Ok, I think I got it. I'm going to be driving thr Phase III with only the 13v & 18v 22k tone signal out of the WB68, The 103 sees nothing. Simple. Thank you.

Now...I can't seem to find the 110 on my SuperBuddy - it might help to know the name of the bird. e.g. Echostar 7, etc.
This may just be a SB training issue for me.

Anyway, i got 1st readings of -29dB, 79 IRD on 101, and -25 dB, 98 IRD on 119.
How good/bad are these.
BTW, the SB gives Polarization offset (16.5) rather than Tilt, so I'm poking around with rotation. Is there a conversion formula?

Thanks again for your patience and help.

Len


----------



## veryoldschool

I've never touched a super buddy, so you need to wait for someone that can help.

Edit: The 110 TPs [3] are just mixed in below the 119 TPs, so your SB might just be showing them with the 119. If you cover the 110 LNB, you might see the lowest three TPs drop from 119.


----------



## CKNAV

I have the method 3 set up for couple months now. I have a problem with 119 odd. It almost never works. I changed cables, fittings, combiners and nothing helps. If I hook it up directly, 119 odd works. I figured that it might be a problem with WB68 switch, but it isn't as I just installed SWM8 switch and have the same thing. I am about pull my hair out trying to fix it. Any ideas?


----------



## veryoldschool

My first thought would be the splitter/combiner.


----------



## CKNAV

veryoldschool said:


> My first thought would be the splitter/combiner.


I changed all the splitter combiners multiple times and swapped cables. I Have Holland HFS-2P and Channel Vision HS-2. Same result, no 119 odd.


----------



## litzdog911

CKNAV said:


> I have the method 3 set up for couple months now. I have a problem with 119 odd. It almost never works. I changed cables, fittings, combiners and nothing helps. If I hook it up directly, 119 odd works. I figured that it might be a problem with WB68 switch, but it isn't as I just installed SWM8 switch and have the same thing. I am about pull my hair out trying to fix it. Any ideas?


The Phase III dish has its own integrated multiswitch, so the problem could be there. Or with its 119-deg LNB.


----------



## CKNAV

litzdog911 said:


> The Phase III dish has its own integrated multiswitch, so the problem could be there. Or with its 119-deg LNB.


I changed it too. I had CalAmp now it is WNC. What is strange that if I go directly it works no problem. I am beginning to think that Method 3 may not be the perfect solution.


----------



## jbraden

CKNAV said:


> I changed it too. I had CalAmp now it is WNC. What is strange that if I go directly it works no problem. I am beginning to think that Method 3 may not be the perfect solution.


Since I originated method #3, I checked my signal strengths to make sure I was getting all of the 119 transponders. The 119 odd transponders are selected by the 13v, 22kHz tone input of the Sonora power inserter, and the combined 119 even and 110 even transponders are selected by the 18v, 22kHz input. The 3 active 110 transponders read 92, 88, 94 and the 6 active 119 even transponders read 94, 95, 95, 94, 92, and 82. This is as reported by an H20 during a snow storm. The 5 active 119 odd transponders read 97, 100, 94, 100, and 93, so I clearly don't have any difficulty receiving them using a method #3 setup. Since you seem to have tried everything else, you may want to see if the Sonora power inserter is outputting the correct voltage/tone on its 13v/22kHz input. Are you getting all of the 103 satellites you should, or are some of those missing too? Have you tried bypassing the Sonora and going directly to the WB68 with the output of the combiner?


----------



## carl6

And I developed and have used method 4, which is only a minor variation of method 3. The key I have found is that the 99/101/103 dish must absolutely not have the 110/119 LNBs connected at all. Simply using an AT9 (with the sidecar attached) won't work, you have to remove the sidecar and have nothing connected to those 2 inputs on the main LNB assembly. That is how I was able to modify the slimline, by electrically disconnecting the 110/119 internally.

Carl


----------



## doctor j

I started a separate thread to report using a DTVAHKAKUKIT 99/101/103 LNB on a Fortec 1.0 meter dish.

SEE posts and pix here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=117691

Doctor j


----------



## CKNAV

carl6 said:


> And I developed and have used method 4, which is only a minor variation of method 3. The key I have found is that the 99/101/103 dish must absolutely not have the 110/119 LNBs connected at all. Simply using an AT9 (with the sidecar attached) won't work, you have to remove the sidecar and have nothing connected to those 2 inputs on the main LNB assembly. That is how I was able to modify the slimline, by electrically disconnecting the 110/119 internally.
> 
> Carl


I do not have sidecar connected, I never did. That is why it is so puzzling to me.


----------



## carl6

I didn't think you did, but thought it worth mentioning just in case.

It is puzzling, not sure what to suggest.

Carl


----------



## BGreen965

Sorry if this has been asked before but Will an AT9 LNB fit on a Slimline dish?


----------



## litzdog911

BGreen965 said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before but Will an AT9 LNB fit on a Slimline dish?


No. Totally different mounting schemes and dish geometry.


----------



## BGreen965

litzdog911 said:


> No. Totally different mounting schemes and dish geometry.


That's what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation.


----------



## nskatp

Hi,

I currently have a 2 dish solution, one dish for 101 and one for 119, I was wondering if a solution is available or maybe someone has managed to find a way to get signal on the 103 satellite with a separate dish, that is have 3 dishes one for 101, one for 119 and one for 103.

Thanks for any advise, ideas or information.


----------



## doctor j

nskatp : Short answer - No Way.

All current common and specialty lnb's have 99/101/103 combined. No way (not even with some of the ingenious internal board modifications) to separate 101 from 103.
By the way they're so close together in the clarke belt almost no way not to receive influence between each other. Can't imagine many situations where one position could not be adjusted enough to see both.

Question then becomes how do you see only 99/101/103 and combine that to the 110 & 119 signals. Thats what all this thread is about and many (5 plus) variations are outlined.

Doctor j


----------



## nskatp

doctor J,

Issue here is location, on fringe areas 101 is only received with 6 feet and up dishes, and that's why a separate dish is used for 119 and 110. So it's very unlikely that even with a KAKUKIT for example on a dish of that size the LNB can see both 101 and 103.

oh, and sorry if this question was a bit out of the main topic (combining 99/101/103 with 110/119)


----------



## veryoldschool

nskatp said:


> doctor J,
> 
> Issue here is location, on fringe areas 101 is only received with 6 feet and up dishes, and that's why a separate dish is used for 119 and 110. So it's very unlikely that even with a KAKUKIT for example on a dish of that size the LNB can see both 101 and 103.
> 
> oh, and sorry if this question was a bit out of the main topic (combining 99/101/103 with 110/119)


Your "location" is a bit misleading then.


----------



## doctor j

DTVKAKUKIT 99/101/103 is specifically designed for fringe areas (Alaska and Hawaii). It is sold with a 1.2 meter 50" x 48" dish and in the caribbean/northern latin america should be adequate. Alaska would present many more challenges than much more eastern longitutes. I have had personal contact with a member in Alaska who has a very functional system using a KAKUKIT 99/101/103 LNB on a 1.8 meter (6 foot) dish. The 110 and 119 are on individual 4 ft dishes.
It can work exactly as you need but it is expensive , labor intensive and may require some fabrication work. My contact reported >$1500 in expenses having already had a lot of the equipment from an older > $2000 install.

Doctor j


----------



## nskatp

thanks for the info, will have to wait to see if something is developed eventually (like a separate LNB and a multiswitch).


----------



## jbraden

nskatp said:


> thanks for the info, will have to wait to see if something is developed eventually (like a separate LNB and a multiswitch).


 I agree with DoctorJ... the actual location of the 103 satellite is 102.8 degrees, or 1.8 degrees from the location of the 101 satellite. Although it will be harder to align a 6 ft. dish than a 4 ft. dish since the feedhorns are set up for the focal point of a 4 foot dish, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you would be able to receive a usable signal from both of these satellites from a single dish. On the other hand, if you want to use separate dishes for these two satellites, you should be able to do that as well using currently available equipment. The LNBs for the new Ka band satellites at 99 and 103 output a Ka-Hi band from 1650-2150MHz and a Ka-Lo band from 250-750MHz. These are combined with the older Ku band signals from 950-1450MHz. The Ka from 99 is combined with the Ku from 101, and the Ka from 103 is combined with the Ku from the merged 119/110 satellites. A setup for merging signals from four satellites (All except the 99 degree Ka band) should look like this:









For the LNB on this new 103 dish, you could use the DTVKAKUKIT or an LNB from an old AT9. Since you will always be supplying a 22KHz tone to this LNB, it will always select only the 103 satellite. Dish sizes can be as large as needed to achieve a usable signal. The LNBs must be carefully positioned at the dish focal points. The KAKUKIT LNB would also need to be rotated 1.8 degrees to align the feed horn for the 103 satellite perfectly. A much more difficult question is how to add the 99 satellite when D11 goes up in a few months. Currently I know of no solution if you can't get 99 and 101 using a single DTVKAKUKIT.


----------



## nskatp

Thanks for the info, I will try to start getting the necessary hardware so I can try this setup. I might end up getting rid of 110 completely. Can you tell me what the Sonora Power Inserter is for?


----------



## veryoldschool

nskatp said:


> Thanks for the info, I will try to start getting the necessary hardware so I can try this setup. I might end up getting rid of 110 completely. Can you tell me what the Sonora Power Inserter is for?


The Sonora is used to drive the LNBs.


----------



## jbraden

veryoldschool said:


> The Sonora is used to drive the LNBs.


Expanding on this answer a little... the WB68 is a passive multiswitch, so all power for the LNBs as well as power for the multiswitch needs to come from the receivers. When you have long signal runs, combiners, and multiple LNBs the power available from the receivers may not be adequate. The Sonora takes the load off of the receivers and powers the LNBs in the same fashion as a powered multiswitch would do.


----------



## fo71

jbraden said:


> I agree with DoctorJ... the actual location of the 103 satellite is 102.8 degrees, or 1.8 degrees from the location of the 101 satellite. Although it will be harder to align a 6 ft. dish than a 4 ft. dish since the feedhorns are set up for the focal point of a 4 foot dish, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you would be able to receive a usable signal from both of these satellites from a single dish. On the other hand, if you want to use separate dishes for these two satellites, you should be able to do that as well using currently available equipment. The LNBs for the new Ka band satellites at 99 and 103 output a Ka-Hi band from 1650-2150MHz and a Ka-Lo band from 250-750MHz. These are combined with the older Ku band signals from 950-1450MHz. The Ka from 99 is combined with the Ku from 101, and the Ka from 103 is combined with the Ku from the merged 119/110 satellites. A setup for merging signals from four satellites (All except the 99 degree Ka band) should look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the LNB on this new 103 dish, you could use the DTVKAKUKIT or an LNB from an old AT9. Since you will always be supplying a 22KHz tone to this LNB, it will always select only the 103 satellite. Dish sizes can be as large as needed to achieve a usable signal. The LNBs must be carefully positioned at the dish focal points. The KAKUKIT LNB would also need to be rotated 1.8 degrees to align the feed horn for the 103 satellite perfectly. *A much more difficult question is how to add the 99 satellite when D11 goes up in a few months. Currently I know of no solution if you can't get 99 and 101 using a single DTVKAKUKIT.*


Hi guys... I have been following this thread for months patiently with much interest to a point that just for the fun of it I may start to get some of the hardware to run tests of my own. It's awesome what you've all acomplished working as a team. Congrats !

Here's my two cents on adding 99 as a 5th solo dish obviously considering that 101 and 99 are on the same side (non 22khz).

Time back I was introduced to diplexers, It amazed me at the time how cable and satellite could be combined and then split using one cable. I then understood that out of the whole bandwidth scale, a chunk (950-1450Mhz) was taken out of the whole and sent to one of the legs of the diplexer along with power. The rest of the scale (below 950, and above 1450) was sent to the other leg to be used by cable. Diplexers normally handle 50 to 2300 Mhz.

Having said the above, using diplexers between the sonora (diplexer input/output) and the 101 lnb (diplexer sat leg) filters out perfectly along with the powers needs for 101 to work with no problem.

Now, here's the fun part, using the cable legs on the diplexer for the 99 sat, also filters out perfectly the frequencies needed for ka Hi/Lo @ 99. The only issue here would be power.

For power we shall also include a couple of HFS-2P splitter/combiners between the diplexer cable leg and the ka/ku lnb in this case used for 99 only. OK, so we now have the signals filtered out or properly routed and the HFS-2P's give us the extra port to inject power. Any powered multiswitch used for power injection would do the trick connecting a cable from the multiswitch's +18v and +13v to each of the corresponding HFS-2P's legs.

What do you think?


----------



## veryoldschool

fo71 said:


> Hi guys... I have been following this thread for months patiently with much interest to a point that just for the fun of it I may start to get some of the hardware to run tests of my own. It's awesome what you've all acomplished working as a team. Congrats !
> 
> Here's my two cents on adding 99 as a 5th solo dish obviously considering that 101 and 99 are on the same side (non 22khz).
> 
> Time back I was introduced to diplexers, It amazed me at the time how cable and satellite could be combined and then split using one cable. I then understood that out of the whole bandwidth scale, a chunk (950-1450Mhz) was taken out of the whole and sent to one of the legs of the diplexer along with power. The rest of the scale (below 950, and above 1450) was sent to the other leg to be used by cable. Diplexers normally handle 50 to 2300 Mhz.
> 
> Having said the above, using diplexers between the sonora (diplexer input/output) and the 101 lnb (diplexer sat leg) filters out perfectly along with the powers needs for 101 to work with no problem.
> 
> Now, here's the fun part, using the cable legs on the diplexer for the 99 sat, also filters out perfectly the frequencies needed for ka Hi/Lo @ 99. The only issue here would be power.
> 
> For power we shall also include a couple of HFS-2P splitter/combiners between the diplexer cable leg and the ka/ku lnb in this case used for 99 only. OK, so we now have the signals filtered out or properly routed and the HFS-2P's give us the extra port to inject power. Any powered multiswitch used for power injection would do the trick connecting a cable from the multiswitch's +18v and +13v to each of the corresponding HFS-2P's legs.
> 
> What do you think?


I doubt the diplexer is going to work the way you've posted. The switch point is 950 MHz, but 99 has both Ka-Lo [250-750 MHz] & Ka-Hi [1650-2150 MHz], so both shouldn't be able to pass on either leg of the diplexer.


----------



## doctor j

"I then understood that out of the whole bandwidth scale, a chunk (950-1450Mhz) was taken out of the whole and sent to one of the legs of the diplexer along with power. The rest of the scale (below 950, and above 1450) was sent to the other leg to be used by cable. Diplexers normally handle 50 to 2300 Mhz."

I don't think that is correct.
I believe most diplexers are "band pass filters" meaning that the "CABLE" leg is 860 MHz and less and the "SATELLITE" leg is 950MHz and above.
You could get a "notch filter" to select out 950 MHz to 1450 MHz but complexity and EXPENSE would be an issue. The more exact the filtering the more expensive.

I'm still confused as to why the 99/101/103 signals need to be considered separately. I know that the KAKUKIT lnb assembly will work on a 1.8 m dish and I bet it could work on a 2.4 m offset Ku type dish. If you need more signal that that the the dish ( or dishes ) expense would be such that you could probably call PRODELIN direct and custom make whatever you want. I cannot imagine a LOS issue from 99 to 103.

Doctor j


----------



## veryoldschool

doctor j said:


> I don't think that is correct.
> I believe most diplexers are "band pass filters" meaning that the "CABLE" leg is 860 MHz and less and the "SATELLITE" leg is 950MHz and above. Doctor j


Actually, it would be a low pass & high pass filter combo.


----------



## bruinfever

What incredibly invaluable information on this thread. Question: I can see 99, 101, 103, and even 110 from one side of my new house but I dont think I can see 119 which is at 181 deg. azimuth since I have massive tall pine trees directly in front of my house. I would have to put the 119 dish on the opposite side of my house, which is 50 ft away. I was thinking of using solution #2 by litzdog911 on post #164, but is there a limitation to the distance between the three dishes from each other. Will I be losing signal strength and if so will it be minimal?


----------



## FarNorth

On a related note, I have set my install up per Dr, J's recommendations and everything works but my signal strength on 119 is a little low, only just above 80. 

I've swapped info with him a few times and I am going to try and run the 119 straight to the Zinwell to see if the signal is dropping due to the combiners and splitters.


----------



## carl6

bruinfever said:


> What incredibly invaluable information on this thread. Question: I can see 99, 101, 103, and even 110 from one side of my new house but I dont think I can see 119 which is at 181 deg. azimuth since I have massive tall pine trees directly in front of my house. I would have to put the 119 dish on the opposite side of my house, which is 50 ft away. I was thinking of using solution #2 by litzdog911 on post #164, but is there a limitation to the distance between the three dishes from each other. Will I be losing signal strength and if so will it be minimal?


Do you have a location where you could see both 110 and 119 from? If so, the third or fourth solution would work very well for you.

Regardless, 50 feet of cable is probably not going to be a problem.

Carl


----------



## litzdog911

bruinfever said:


> What incredibly invaluable information on this thread. Question: I can see 99, 101, 103, and even 110 from one side of my new house but I dont think I can see 119 which is at 181 deg. azimuth since I have massive tall pine trees directly in front of my house. I would have to put the 119 dish on the opposite side of my house, which is 50 ft away. I was thinking of using solution #2 by litzdog911 on post #164, but is there a limitation to the distance between the three dishes from each other. Will I be losing signal strength and if so will it be minimal?


I think you'll be fine at 50'. My 110-deg W dish is about 50' from my other dishes with no problems.


----------



## bruinfever

carl6 said:


> Do you have a location where you could see both 110 and 119 from? If so, the third or fourth solution would work very well for you.
> 
> Regardless, 50 feet of cable is probably not going to be a problem.
> 
> Carl


Unfortunately I don't think I can see 110 and 119 from the same location, but I'm not completely sure. I will wait one week until I can confirm everything by using the sun as a guide. But I have two massive pine trees that are directly in front of my house (both on my property, one on the left side, one in the middle.) From what I can tell with dishpointer.com, I can squeek by 110 just barely if I put the 110 dish on the far left of my home and I can get 119 just slightly to the right of the tree on the middle of my property if I put the 119 dish on the far right side of my home. How does the alignment of the AT9 dish work? Is it basically the same as if I were to align it for all five sats?


----------



## jbraden

bruinfever said:


> How does the alignment of the AT9 dish work? Is it basically the same as if I were to align it for all five sats?


Yes... the azimuth and elevation used for the AT9 dish is the same as you'd use for the 101 alone, but you also need to set the tilt correctly for your location. The main LNB assembly on the AT9 receives the signals from the 99, 101, and 103 satellite locations. The 110 and 119 LNBs are on a side arm which isn't used with these multi-dish setups.


----------



## litzdog911

bruinfever said:


> ..... How does the alignment of the AT9 dish work? Is it basically the same as if I were to align it for all five sats?


See the AT9 install videos here ....
http://www.solidsignal.com/dtvkuka

Key requirement is to "dither" the 101-deg satellite readings to peak the center of the beam, thereby optimizing the Ka-band signal from 99 and 103-deg W.


----------



## demisod

I'm probably going to try the third solution discussed here (Phase III with an AT-9 combining lines from the two dishes via the referenced splitter/combiner). I currently have a Phase III and an old round dish combined with a powered multiswitch. I'm assuming the Sonora & the WB68 are roughly equivalent to the powered multiswitch I have now. One question I do have. The dishes are a good 100 feet or more from the multiswitch, which in turn is a good 50 feet or more from the receivers. My signal strengths are good though. Is there any danger of the signal strength degrading with the new equipment, given the lengths of the cable runs?


----------



## carl6

You should be okay, especially if you use the Sonora. The issue with long runs with the HD equipment is not one of attenuated signal strength, it is an issue of dc power reaching the dish. The Sonora will address that issue in your case.

Carl


----------



## doctor j

demisod said:


> I'm probably going to try the third solution discussed here (Phase III with an AT-9 combining lines from the two dishes via the referenced splitter/combiner). I currently have a Phase III and an old round dish combined with a powered multiswitch. I'm assuming the Sonora & the WB68 are roughly equivalent to the powered multiswitch I have now. One question I do have. The dishes are a good 100 feet or more from the multiswitch, which in turn is a good 50 feet or more from the receivers. My signal strengths are good though. Is there any danger of the signal strength degrading with the new equipment, given the lengths of the cable runs?


You are correct!
Sonora and WB68 is like a powered multiswitch.

I doubt your distances will be a problem.

Good luck

Doctor j


----------



## Voodoo

Has anyone else tried this setup yet? I am in the caribbean (Haiti) and have three 1.8 meters dishes for 101, 110 and 119. I have a 2.4 meter dish I wanted to dedicate to 103 but trying with the 1.8 meter, I am unable to get even a glimpse of signal from 103 using this setup. I am using a accutrac III signal meter and a DTVKAKU LNB wired in the 1.8 meter dish...Should I try to setup the 2.4 meter or should I be able to get a signal with the 1.8 Meter. Am I doing something wrong?:nono2:



jbraden said:


> I agree with DoctorJ... the actual location of the 103 satellite is 102.8 degrees, or 1.8 degrees from the location of the 101 satellite. Although it will be harder to align a 6 ft. dish than a 4 ft. dish since the feedhorns are set up for the focal point of a 4 foot dish, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you would be able to receive a usable signal from both of these satellites from a single dish. On the other hand, if you want to use separate dishes for these two satellites, you should be able to do that as well using currently available equipment. The LNBs for the new Ka band satellites at 99 and 103 output a Ka-Hi band from 1650-2150MHz and a Ka-Lo band from 250-750MHz. These are combined with the older Ku band signals from 950-1450MHz. The Ka from 99 is combined with the Ku from 101, and the Ka from 103 is combined with the Ku from the merged 119/110 satellites. A setup for merging signals from four satellites (All except the 99 degree Ka band) should look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the LNB on this new 103 dish, you could use the DTVKAKUKIT or an LNB from an old AT9. Since you will always be supplying a 22KHz tone to this LNB, it will always select only the 103 satellite. Dish sizes can be as large as needed to achieve a usable signal. The LNBs must be carefully positioned at the dish focal points. The KAKUKIT LNB would also need to be rotated 1.8 degrees to align the feed horn for the 103 satellite perfectly. A much more difficult question is how to add the 99 satellite when D11 goes up in a few months. Currently I know of no solution if you can't get 99 and 101 using a single DTVKAKUKIT.


----------



## doctor j

Are you getting any signal on the 101 thru the kakukit lnb.
I suspect the 103 footprint falls off very fast so no 103 may be possible in your location.

Doctor j


----------



## Voodoo

doctor j said:


> Are you getting any signal on the 101 thru the kakukit lnb.
> I suspect the 103 footprint falls off very fast so no 103 may be possible in your location.
> 
> Doctor j


Thanks for the reply!
I do get 101 from the same DTVKAKU LNB but when I adjust the dish slight down and left to peak 103, the best signal I can get is a low 19-22 using the Accutrac III + Do you think I have a chance with the 2.4 meter offset dish? It's labor intensive to mount it so I wanna make sure it is worth it.


----------



## litzdog911

Voodoo said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> I do get 101 from the same DTVKAKU LNB but when I adjust the dish slight down and left to peak 103, the best signal I can get is a low 19-22 using the Accutrac III + Do you think I have a chance with the 2.4 meter offset dish? It's labor intensive to mount it so I wanna make sure it is worth it.


I also suspect your at the hairy edge of the 103-deg Ka-band footprint. I'm not sure that a bigger dish will help you.


----------



## Voodoo

You may be correct as I get a signal up to 55 with the KAKUKIT pointed at 101 using that Accutrac III + and 192 using the birdog but a mere 22-25 when pointed on 103 with the accutrac. If the birdog could get that ka signal, it would be much easier to try some more.. also I beleive that I could get a better chance if I used a single LNB mounted on the focal point of the antenna. Since the KAKUKIT is rather large, it is harder to mount using home made tools . For thtest I used simple strap on plastic wires. Anyone else in this area interested in testing this setting?

I also had another question. Using the SAT C kit mounted on a separate 1.8 meters Andrews antenna, I am able to peak Transponder 10 at 95 but am unable to get the slighest signal from Transponders 8 and 12. Are they off limit to the caribbean? if not the will the reading improve using the 2.4 meter antenna?

I am a fan of these things and love the new HD Channels!


----------



## litzdog911

Voodoo said:


> ...
> 
> I also had another question. Using the SAT C kit mounted on a separate 1.8 meters Andrews antenna, I am able to peak Transponder 10 at 95 but am unable to get the slighest signal from Transponders 8 and 12. Are they off limit to the caribbean? if not the will the reading improve using the 2.4 meter antenna?
> 
> I am a fan of these things and love the new HD Channels!


I'm guessing that the 110-deg satellite footprint is not the same for each transponder, so that's why you're only seeing Transponder 10.

Soon it won't matter .... by the end of this year it's expected that all of the HD channels will migrate to 99 and 103-deg W, so you won't really need 110 or 119-deg W anymore. Of course, if you can't get any of the Ka-band transponders from 99 and 103, then you're still out-of-luck.


----------



## Voodoo

Can they do that? knowing that Puerto Rico will not have access to 99 and 103 I take it they would have this option available for this area!!?? Or are they oing to spread the 99-103 signal?


----------



## tacua

Voodoo said:


> Can they do that? knowing that Puerto Rico will not have access to 99 and 103 I take it they would have this option available for this area!!?? Or are they oing to spread the 99-103 signal?


We are in a similar situation here in C.A., however, there is no problem with signals from 101,110 or 119 with 1.8 dishes. Our concern is how do we get signal from 103 c, what type of config. we need? and where do we buy the Ka LNBF to test signals.


----------



## doctor j

tacua said:


> We are in a similar situation here in C.A., however, there is no problem with signals from 101,110 or 119 with 1.8 dishes. Our concern is how do we get signal from 103 c, what type of config. we need? and where do we buy the Ka LNBF to test signals.


This is what you need but it requires some work and careful aiming to get 99/103

http://www.thesatelliteshop.net/dtv-99-101-103-directv-lnb-kit-alaska-hawaii-p-148.html

Doctor j


----------



## litzdog911

tacua said:


> We are in a similar situation here in C.A., however, there is no problem with signals from 101,110 or 119 with 1.8 dishes. Our concern is how do we get signal from 103 c, what type of config. we need? and where do we buy the Ka LNBF to test signals.


By "C.A." I assume you mean Central America? I doubt that the Ka-band satellites (99 and 103-deg) have any footprint there.


----------



## tacua

Thanks Dr.J for your reply. Before purchasing the Ka LNBF, is it possible to get an image of the sat footprint.Will appreciate for your contribution!


----------



## tacua

Thank you litz for your reply, we'll have to wait until it does.


----------



## sputterbug

Is this possible with the eagle aspen lnb?


----------



## litzdog911

sputterbug said:


> Is this possible with the eagle aspen lnb?


Is what possible? Eagle Aspen LNB in what satellite dish? Need more info.

And welcome to DBSTalk!


----------



## LenV

litzdog911 said:


> *Well, actually FIVE schemes! ...*
> 
> So far we have five verified connection schemes to combine multiple dishes at different locations to receive signals from all DirecTV satellites through trees and other obstructions ....
> 
> 4. Modify a SlimLine LNB assembly to disconnect the 110 & 119-deg LNBs, then combine with two round dishes or a Phase III dish as described in 2 and 3 above. See Carl's post with modification instructions and photos here ....
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1322936&postcount=275
> 
> Well, it was a long haul, beginning in December then waiting for the ground to thaw, but I couldn't be happier with the results. Thank you so much to Carl6, Litzdog, Veryoldschool, and the rest of you for your assistance.
> 
> The modification of the Calamp slimline was a piece of cake, and I did go with Sonora in-line amps in addition to the polarity locker in front of the WB 68. The equipment board is melted in the garage approximately 40 feet from each dish pole with runs to each of two receivers (one dvr) of about 100 feet, all solid copper. Everything is working perfectly.
> 
> Using a super buddy, I had everything wired up as far as the WB 68, and all the installer had to do was run the lines through the garage and house. Good thing, as he didn't have a clue. He took a picture with his phone, though.
> 
> Once again, I can't express my appreciation strongly enough for everyone's help and guidance.
> 
> LenV


----------



## doctor j

LenV said:


> litzdog911 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Well, actually FIVE schemes! ...*
> 
> So far we have five verified connection schemes to combine multiple dishes at different locations to receive signals from all DirecTV satellites through trees and other obstructions ....
> 
> 4. Modify a SlimLine LNB assembly to disconnect the 110 & 119-deg LNBs, then combine with two round dishes or a Phase III dish as described in 2 and 3 above. See Carl's post with modification instructions and photos here ....
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1322936&postcount=275
> 
> Well, it was a long haul, beginning in December then waiting for the ground to thaw, but I couldn't be happier with the results. Thank you so much to Carl6, Litzdog, Veryoldschool, and the rest of you for your assistance.
> 
> The modification of the Calamp slimline was a piece of cake, and I did go with Sonora in-line amps in addition to the polarity locker in front of the WB 68. The equipment board is melted in the garage approximately 40 feet from each dish pole with runs to each of two receivers (one dvr) of about 100 feet, all solid copper. Everything is working perfectly.
> 
> Using a super buddy, I had everything wired up as far as the WB 68, and all the installer had to do was run the lines through the garage and house. Good thing, as he didn't have a clue. He took a picture with his phone, though.
> 
> Once again, I can't express my appreciation strongly enough for everyone's help and guidance.
> 
> LenV
> 
> 
> 
> Great Job.
> Doesn't it feel good when a special project works out the way you want it to.
> Enjoy your HD.
> 
> Doctor j
Click to expand...


----------



## sputterbug

sputterbug said:


> Is this possible with the eagle aspen lnb?


I have the slimline dish with an eagle aspen 5 lnb, not the calamp or wnc. I also have the triple lnb dish left over from when I upgraded to the slimline that I could use for 110/119.

To clarify I guess I'm asking if anyone has modified with success the eagle aspen 5 lnb from a slimline dish to remove the 110/119 signal similiar to the calamp lnb modification.

I'm glad I found this board. You guys are a wealth of information and I appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge.


----------



## doctor j

sputterbug said:


> I have the slimline dish with an eagle aspen 5 lnb, not the calamp or wnc. I also have the triple lnb dish left over from when I upgraded to the slimline that I could use for 110/119.
> 
> To clarify I guess I'm asking if anyone has modified with success the eagle aspen 5 lnb from a slimline dish to remove the 110/119 signal similiar to the calamp lnb modification.
> 
> I'm glad I found this board. You guys are a wealth of information and I appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge.


Have not seen a report about eagle-aspen slimline LNB.
I'd take back off and compare pictures to post #275.

Doctor j


----------



## litzdog911

sputterbug said:


> I have the slimline dish with an eagle aspen 5 lnb, not the calamp or wnc. I also have the triple lnb dish left over from when I upgraded to the slimline that I could use for 110/119.
> 
> To clarify I guess I'm asking if anyone has modified with success the eagle aspen 5 lnb from a slimline dish to remove the 110/119 signal similiar to the calamp lnb modification.
> 
> I'm glad I found this board. You guys are a wealth of information and I appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge.


Drop a private message to Carl6. I don't know if he got his hands on an EagleAspen version of the Slimline to evaluate.


----------



## carl6

The only two Slimline LNB assembly models I had access to were CalAmp and WNC. I have not seen an EagleAspen.

The two that I did check were totally different internal designs, as documented earlier in this thread. Take a look back at the posts that describe (and show photos of) those two models, then you may be able to evaluate yours to see if it is similar in design to one or the other and proceed from there.

Carl


----------



## carl6

LenV said:


> Well, it was a long haul, beginning in December then waiting for the ground to thaw, but I couldn't be happier with the results. Thank you so much to Carl6, Litzdog, Veryoldschool, and the rest of you for your assistance.
> 
> ...
> 
> Once again, I can't express my appreciation strongly enough for everyone's help and guidance.
> 
> LenV


Glad that it worked out so well for you. I had a lot of fun testing and trying, and have to also acknolwedge hiker for the donation of the CalAmp LNB assembly that I modified.

Carl


----------



## jmayes

Hi everyone! I have just read all 17 pages of this thread and found it to be very informative!! Figuring out the nutz and boltz of the new frequency stacking scheme has been hard to come by and most of the mystery is now solved with info in this thread. I have a somewhat off topic question that I think someone here can quickly answer and can also offer some expertise of my own.

Being new to the new HD sats I need to know 1) are the (s) marked sats (using a H20) the lo-band or the hi-band. 2) which band on 103 have the conus (national) HD channels? I ask because I do not have the BBC's yet and so far get nada.

Now, on to what I can do to help. I have expertise in the inner workings of LNBs and multi-switches, in fact I repaired them as my primary job for several years. One quick question I can answer that has come up many times in this thread is "why can you not combine two lnbs even if you cover one up?" This is because each LNB as a mixer oscillator that is used to down convert the received frequency to the base-band (output) frequency. Even if you cover up the LNB this internal oscillator still leaks through to the LNB output and then beats against the same bleed through from the other combined LNB. The real trick to kill the unwanted LNB(s) in the Slimline is to disable this oscillator, there is one for each LNB in the assembly. If Carl6 were to remove the metal covers from the LNB(s) that would detune the oscillator most likely far enough to do the trick but as Carl6 surmised, the procedure is not readily reversible. Most likely when the metal can is put back the oscillator will be mis-tuned and need to be tweaked by turning one of the screws in the middle of the can (and requires some test equipment).

As far as the WNC LNB, it looks like it can be modified by removing some well targeted parts from the circuit board, perhaps a few traces that can be broken with a knife. Either way it will take some soldering experience to reverse the process as these parts and/or traces are extremely small. Disabling any of the other lnb's (ka and 101) can also be done this way.

If Carl will pm me with some hi-res shots of the WNC I can lend some tips to where to go, or if someone wants to donate some lnbs to me I can do it here, this seems like a good project to continue through all the possibility's.

Thankx all for the great info,
Jmayes


----------



## carl6

jmayes said:


> Now, on to what I can do to help. I have expertise in the inner workings of LNBs and multi-switches, in fact I repaired them as my primary job for several years. One quick question I can answer that has come up many times in this thread is "why can you not combine two lnbs even if you cover one up?" This is because each LNB as a mixer oscillator that is used to down convert the received frequency to the base-band (output) frequency. Even if you cover up the LNB this internal oscillator still leaks through to the LNB output and then beats against the same bleed through from the other combined LNB.


Exactly as I suspected. Thanks for the confirmation.


jmayes said:


> The real trick to kill the unwanted LNB(s) in the Slimline is to disable this oscillator, there is one for each LNB in the assembly. If Carl6 were to remove the metal covers from the LNB(s) that would detune the oscillator most likely far enough to do the trick but as Carl6 surmised, the procedure is not readily reversible. Most likely when the metal can is put back the oscillator will be mis-tuned and need to be tweaked by turning one of the screws in the middle of the can (and requires some test equipment).


I figured there would be some way to do it, but without some spec's of the LNB Assy I wasn't willing to experiment.


jmayes said:


> As far as the WNC LNB, it looks like it can be modified by removing some well targeted parts from the circuit board, perhaps a few traces that can be broken with a knife. Either way it will take some soldering experience to reverse the process as these parts and/or traces are extremely small. Disabling any of the other lnb's (ka and 101) can also be done this way.
> 
> If Carl will pm me with some hi-res shots of the WNC I can lend some tips to where to go, or if someone wants to donate some lnbs to me I can do it here, this seems like a good project to continue through all the possibility's.
> 
> Thankx all for the great info,
> Jmayes


PM me with an eamil address and I'll send you the pictures. They average 2.5MB to 4MB each - let me know how much your in box can handle and I can space them accordingly.

Great info, thanks.

Carl


----------



## carl6

Thanks to evaluation of the WNC LNB assembly by jmayes, it might be possible to do a modification to it after all (to shut off the 110/119 signals while keeping 99/101/103). This would allow using a modified WNC LNB assembly in a multi-dish installation.

*NOTE: THE FOLLOWING HAS NOT BEEN TESTED.* IF ANYONE DOES TRY THIS, PLEASE POST YOUR RESULTS. I will try it sometime, but I don't know when I'll get around to it.
















The above two photographs show traces in the WNC assembly that can be cut, which should remove power from the 110 and 119 LNBs, thus shutting them off. Carefully cut the traces with a sharp knife. If the mod does not work, you can solder jumper them back into service. *EDIT: See info in post 417 regarding cut #2.*

Here is another possible modification that you can try instead of the trace cuts.









In this picture, you can see two sets of 4-solder pads (with brown box around them, pointed to by green arrow). Carefully solder a small piece of wire across all 4 pads in each group, which will short out the 110 and 119 signals, preventing them from being fed into the internal multiswitch.

Again, neither of these modifications has been attempted or tested. Try them at your own risk. Both are fairly easily reversed if you are careful in making the mods, and can do basic soldering.

Both suggestions came from jmayes based on his experience with LNB assemblies. Both suggestions make sense on evaluation and appear on the surface that they should work.

Carl


----------



## carl6

jmayes said:


> Being new to the new HD sats I need to know 1) are the (s) marked sats (using a H20) the lo-band or the hi-band. 2) which band on 103 have the conus (national) HD channels? I ask because I do not have the BBC's yet and so far get nada.


jmayes and I have exchanged a number of PM's and emails, and I have answered his question there, but wanted to put the answer here also for general benefit. This does appear elsewhere in the forums if you look for it hard enough.

103s and 99s are spot beam signal tables in the HD receivers and DVRs. The s refers to spot beam - all of the transponders on 99s and 103s are spot beams. In the case of 103, they could come from either of the two satellites at that orbital slot. In the case of 99, at the moment there is only one, but D11 will soon become active and the same will be true there (99s transponders could be from either satellite).

The c stands for CONUS (CONtinental United States), or nationwide beams. Again, a c transponder could be from either satellite in the 103 slot (and from either satellite in 99 slot once D11 is on-line).

jmayes problem is lack of BBCs which are on order but he doesn't have them yet. With BBCs, you will see some transponders on 103s that you can't see without them. Without BBCs you won't see any transponders on 103c, where you should see all active transponders with BBCs.

Some channel examples: Without BBC's, you will still get all of the 70-series HD channels. But without BBC's, you will not see the HD versions of 202, 207, 212, 215, 217, 220, 229, 231, 241, 242 just as a partial list. You need the BBCs for most (almost all) of the new HD channels.

Carl


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## fo71

Interesting what you guys are doing. I'm an "individual dish freak" and have tested all the way to 4 dishes succesfully: one each for 101, 103, 110 and 119. this possible with all info in the thread. With that setup I do not get the 99 sat. Since 99 and 101 are "non 22khz" . I'm hooking up direclty the 101 dish to the 13/18 non 22khz ports on the multiswicth. Otherwise I would run into the oscillator problem described by jmayes for having two "sources" for the 101 (individual 101 and the one from the ku/ka assembly).

Here´s the challenge, how can a slimline assembly be modified to shut everything off (or at least 101 which is the one that causes problem) and leave it for 99 only? This will give us a 5 individual dish solution. Good for freaks like me, or people in fringe areas.

Thanks !


----------



## jmayes

Hi again,
Before I start, I want to publicly Thank Carl6 for the channel information and explanation on the BBC issue. That one post should be made a sticky and put in the general forum as it puts in one place info which is spread all over the forums. In a nut shell at present 5/2008 all the national HDTV channels are on the lo-KA band which require the BBC's. From everything I have read that was not the case just a few months ago when people were pulling their BBC's and still getting everything avl.

Onto the WNC mods, I put more stock into the 2nd method where the 110/119 signals are shorted using 2 jumps. I still have some questions on CUT2 in method 1, and in continuing to examine the pictures CUT2 may very well kill 1/2 or all of the 103 sat. I have a strong feeling that CUT1 alone will be enough to kill the 110/119 LNBS so anyone attempting this mod should be able to resolder what they cut just in case you loose more then what is intended.

fo71's request to have the 101 killed as well will require the left metal can to be lifted, all of the combining circuits are under it. After I see the circuit layout under the can I might be able to come up with cuts that are outside of the can but will have to see the circuits to proceed. Removing the can and putting it back may not actually hurt anything at all as long as you get the screws very tight around the adjustment screws I put a high gut feeling that tuning will be ok. I have removed the cans in lnb's before and put them back without retuning in the past but who-ever trys this should figure the lnb may be to be retuned afterward.

ON a brighter side, I do see an easy way to kill everything but the 103 LNB without moving any cans, can post that if someone is interested.

Again, Thankx for all the hard work by Carl and the other people that have made this thread great!
Jmayes


----------



## jmayes

I just looked at the Cal-amp pix's again and on that LNB assembly it will be a piece of cake to disable any combination of LNBS.  

JM


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## carl6

jmayes said:


> ON a brighter side, I do see an easy way to kill everything but the 103 LNB without moving any cans, can post that if someone is interested.





jmayes said:


> I just looked at the Cal-amp pix's again and on that LNB assembly it will be a piece of cake to disable any combination of LNBS


I would suggest posting the informtion in both cases. Make sure you clearly note it as non-tested, but it may well give someone else something to work with and build on. That's part of what these forums are all about, and we can all learn from each other.

Carl


----------



## fo71

jmayes said:


> ON a brighter side, I do see an easy way to kill everything but the 103 LNB without moving any cans, can post that if someone is interested.
> 
> Again, Thankx for all the hard work by Carl and the other people that have made this thread great!
> Jmayes


jmayes thanks for your valuable input. Just a quick note, I got 103 working by itself as it is the only one on the trio that uses the 22khz tone. I'm interested in killing 101, this is the only one that conflicts with 99. Therefore that assembly w/o the 22khz tone would send signal from the 99 only. This will enable the 99 signals to be combined to the external 101 via high frequency power passing splitters just as 103, 110 and 119 are.

Thanks a lot !


----------



## jmayes

Ok, Carl shot me some hi-res photos of the Cal-amp assembly and I marked up the signal routes and possible kill points.

Method 1 - you will need to jump over the parts I put a red box around and red line across, I found 2 kill points for 99, 101, 103 & 119. 110 only needs one kill point.

Method 2 - I marked with a round circle some adjustment pots which I called "BIAS", there is one for each LNB signal, first mark their original position with a sharpie, then turn then all the way to one side- if that does not kill the channel, go to the other side. I bet one way or the other you will kill the channel without any soldering required. Just put it back to the mark to restore. These adjustments won't be to picky just be sure you get a nice clean mark before you move them.

I Also marked the "TUNE" screws on the Cans, just for reference- should you move a CAN that would be the adjustment you will need to fiddle with to fine tune it back after you replace the can. DO NOT TOUCH THE TUNE ADJUSTMENTS, I MARKED THEM FOR REFERENCE ONLY.

And finally, none of the mods described here have been tested in any way, if you attempt to use this information it is at your own risk of killing your LNB. Should someone have success please post what you did so others can benefit.

Good luck!
Jmayes


----------



## jmayes

:nono: One last method to discuss, Using the TUNE screws I told you not to move may very well be the easiest way to kill LNBS, just the riskiest if you want to ever put things back. Considering the low cost of these units I would think some of you will not care to ever return to stock functions. In this case a regular flat blade screw driver is all that would be needed and no soldering skills required. All versions of the LNB assembly will have these large adjustment screws and you can quickly tell which one is which since it will be closest to the target LNB.

1st method, put a sharpie mark on it and twist it all the way IN until you feel it hit something- don't go any further, count the turns as you go. There is some risk the screw may fall into the can if you go to far so if you see the edge coming and you have not hit the stop yet you may abort there. If you let the screw drop in the can you MUST remove the can and reclaim it- it will cause shorts and kill everything!!! Now, you can reverse the process by counting the turns in reverse and put it back if needed but the final adjustment is very picky so even though your careful it might not be accurate, especially if your fooling with the KA, they are the hardest to re-adjust. But as I said in the beginning if your going this route you should not expect to put it back, I am just being through by giving reverse instructions. Finally if you put it back and DO get good signal and can tune a channel known to be on that LNB then just peek it just like you would peek the dish but you must be on a known channel, you can't use a cheapo signal meter.

2nd method, just remove the screw completely (turning counter clockwise), no reversing the procedure going this route as you can't tell which thread needs started first going back, but quick and dirty.

I CAN'T SAY THIS ENOUGH, IF YOU DO ANY OF THIS, IT'S AT YOUR OWN RISK OF LOOSING YOUR LNB ASSEMBLY- EVERYTHING HERE IS UN-TRIED AND TOTALLY THEORY AND PAST EXPERIENCE WITH OLDER LNBS.

Good luck!
Jmayes


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## fo71

Just a quick question out of common sense. I'm no expert. Using the tune screws to disable the 101 lnb might still interfere with an external lnb at 101 right? Given that power is not completely shut, it has only been de-tuned. Does this make any sense?

Thank you,


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## jmayes

fo71 said:


> Just a quick question out of common sense. I'm no expert. Using the tune screws to disable the 101 lnb might still interfere with an external lnb at 101 right? Given that power is not completely shut, it has only been de-tuned. Does this make any sense?
> 
> Thank you,


When you put the screw too close or too far form the circuit the oscillator stops completely there by killing the undesired signal. If you move it just a little your channels will shift position.

I don't think any left over amplifier noise will hurt anything but this is what we call testing, right? 

Good luck,
JM


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## carl6

fo71 said:


> Just a quick question out of common sense. I'm no expert. Using the tune screws to disable the 101 lnb might still interfere with an external lnb at 101 right? Given that power is not completely shut, it has only been de-tuned. Does this make any sense?
> 
> Thank you,


jmayes can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the de-tuning has the effect of changing the intermediate frequency that sends the signals from the LNB to the dish, so that they won't interfere with a properly tuned LNB.

If you've ever used a 2-way radio of any type, and heard two people trying to talk at the same time on the same frequency/channel, you know what the interference is like. Change either one of those two radios to a slightly different frequency and the problem goes away. That is what you are doing by de-tuning the LNB.

Carl


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## jmayes

Yes, that is correct- but in this case when you move them far enough they stop completly so no signal all all once your past the magic point.

 JM



carl6 said:


> jmayes can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the de-tuning has the effect of changing the intermediate frequency that sends the signals from the LNB to the dish, so that they won't interfere with a properly tuned LNB.
> 
> If you've ever used a 2-way radio of any type, and heard two people trying to talk at the same time on the same frequency/channel, you know what the interference is like. Change either one of those two radios to a slightly different frequency and the problem goes away. That is what you are doing by de-tuning the LNB.
> 
> Carl


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## tacua

Excuse the interruption; all I need to know is if I can use my 101 offset-dish(1.80 mt), by removing the actual LNB and placing a new ahkakukit lnbf in order to receive both signals from 101 and 103c? I am in a fringe area but receive good 101 signals. Many thanks.


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## fo71

tacua said:


> Excuse the interruption; all I need to know is if I can use my 101 offset-dish(1.80 mt), by removing the actual LNB and placing a new ahkakukit lnbf in order to receive both signals from 101 and 103c? I am in a fringe area but receive good 101 signals. Many thanks.


The first answer is yes, however it depends on the type of dish. Your dish must be eliptic and have swivel/tilt adjustment along with azimuth and elevetation. Considering you do have that hardware you must consider the larger the dish the more difficult it is to point and peak.

Hope this is helpfull.


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## jmayes

tacua said:


> Excuse the interruption; all I need to know is if I can use my 101 offset-dish(1.80 mt), by removing the actual LNB and placing a new ahkakukit lnbf in order to receive both signals from 101 and 103c? I am in a fringe area but receive good 101 signals. Many thanks.


I think if you are only going for 101/103 it's doable even with the round dish but you will have to mount the LNB's at just the right Axis. As fo71 said it will be tricky to get aimed and peeked.

PS, MY BBC's arrived today and everything came right on! I must have held my mouth right when I was aiming the dish 

JM


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## tacua

Many thanks both Fo71 & Jmayes for the replys. We'll keep you posted of the progress in the experiment. I will appreciate any new thoughts you might come across in the coming days or weeks.


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## fo71

Jmayes, I'm sending you link to a high res picture of the AH lnb assembly. Could you please point out where would we get rid of 101 and just leave 103 and 99 on this assembly either by cuts or detuning?



Thanks in advance,


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## jmayes

Hi,

I have not seen a design with 2 tuning screws before but it looks like you got one, might be a 2-stage conversion but thats just a guess. Anyway, I did see the two bias adjustments, you can try those pretty safely. Also below the 101 can are two signal transformers (the block blocks), I put red squares over them. If you can do some soldering you can short the input of each one . Lastly removing the 101 metal can should do the trick for sure with little effort.

Also get rid of the masking tape before it turns to glue, I can't believe they used that crap, there was no reasion for it.

As said before, this is all for information and NOT TESTED, doing any of these mods is at your risk of loosing the unit.

Anyone that tries this please post your results!

Good luck,
Jmayes


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## fo71

Thanks Jmayes, will give it a shot when I have a chance.
Thanks !


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## mayo*1

jbraden said:


> I agree with DoctorJ... the actual location of the 103 satellite is 102.8 degrees, or 1.8 degrees from the location of the 101 satellite. Although it will be harder to align a 6 ft. dish than a 4 ft. dish since the feedhorns are set up for the focal point of a 4 foot dish, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you would be able to receive a usable signal from both of these satellites from a single dish. On the other hand, if you want to use separate dishes for these two satellites, you should be able to do that as well using currently available equipment. The LNBs for the new Ka band satellites at 99 and 103 output a Ka-Hi band from 1650-2150MHz and a Ka-Lo band from 250-750MHz. These are combined with the older Ku band signals from 950-1450MHz. The Ka from 99 is combined with the Ku from 101, and the Ka from 103 is combined with the Ku from the merged 119/110 satellites. A setup for merging signals from four satellites (All except the 99 degree Ka band) should look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the LNB on this new 103 dish, you could use the DTVKAKUKIT or an LNB from an old AT9. Since you will always be supplying a 22KHz tone to this LNB, it will always select only the 103 satellite. Dish sizes can be as large as needed to achieve a usable signal. The LNBs must be carefully positioned at the dish focal points. The KAKUKIT LNB would also need to be rotated 1.8 degrees to align the feed horn for the 103 satellite perfectly. A much more difficult question is how to add the 99 satellite when D11 goes up in a few months. Currently I know of no solution if you can't get 99 and 101 using a single DTVKAKUKIT.


can the sonora and the zinwell be replaced with the new SWM-8?


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## litzdog911

mayo*1 said:


> can the sonora and the zinwell be replaced with the new SWM-8?


Yes, that should work fine. You might want to keep the Sonora Polarity Locker, though, and connect its outputs to the SWM8's 4 satellite inputs.


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## tacua

Will somebody post a photograph of the 99-101-103 new LNB or a photo of the DTVAHKAKUKIT so I can adapt it to my 1.8 mt. round off-set dish. Thanks in advance.


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## doctor j

tacua said:


> Will somebody post a photograph of the 99-101-103 new LNB or a photo of the DTVAHKAKUKIT so I can adapt it to my 1.8 mt. round off-set dish. Thanks in advance.


See Here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1350332&postcount=327

And here with mods for fortec 1.0 meter dish:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1430993&postcount=8

Doctor j


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## mayo*1

litzdog911 said:


> Yes, that should work fine. You might want to keep the Sonora Polarity Locker, though, and connect its outputs to the SWM8's 4 satellite inputs.


so, only the zinwell should be replaced, all the splitters too?


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## litzdog911

mayo*1 said:


> so, only the zinwell should be replaced, all the splitters too?


What splitters?


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## tacua

Many thanks, Dr.J


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## tacua

Dr. J. ,where could i get a mapping of the sat 103c footprint?
Regards,


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## litzdog911

tacua said:


> Dr. J. ,where could i get a mapping of the sat 103c footprint?
> Regards,


I've never seen one.  Where are you located?


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## tacua

litzdog911 said:


> I've never seen one. Where are you located?


I am temporarily in Flores, Guatemala(northern part), but will be home in a couple of months. Thanks Litz.


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## litzdog911

tacua said:


> I am temporarily in Flores, Guatemala(northern part), but will be home in a couple of months. Thanks Litz.


I'm pretty sure you would have zero coverage of Guatemala from the Ka-band satellites at 99 and 103º.


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## tacua

Litz, I've heard that all HD channels will be moved from 119 &110, how certain(true) is that? Will the 103c spill some signals to fringe areas when the new sat is in operation? We come here often and won't like to stick only to SD.


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## Michael D'Angelo

tacua said:


> Litz, I've heard that all HD channels will be moved from 119 &110, how certain(true) is that? Will the 103c spill some signals to fringe areas when the new sat is in operation? We come here often and won't like to stick only to SD.


Welcome to DBSTalk

Yes it is true that the HD channels that come from SAT 110 and 119 will be moved to D11 (SAT 99c) and be MPEG4.


----------



## litzdog911

tacua said:


> Litz, I've heard that all HD channels will be moved from 119 &110, how certain(true) is that? Will the 103c spill some signals to fringe areas when the new sat is in operation? We come here often and won't like to stick only to SD.


Define "fringe areas". I don't think you can expect as much "spillage" from the Ka-band satellites as you might see from the Ku-band satellites.


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## DarinC

Michael D'Angelo;1620847 said:


> Yes it is true that the HD channels that come from SAT 110 and 119 will be moved to D11 (SAT 99c) and be MPEG4.


Whoa, ok, I haven't kept up with any of this stuff in a LONG time. They are coming out to upgrade me to be MPEG4 compatible (new dish & DVRs). I came to this thread to research what I needed, because I'm currently doing a two dish solution (one for 101, another for 110/119) to get around trees. I think I can get all the "new" satellites from my 101 dish location... I just need the 2nd one for 110/119. But if all the HD is being moved off of 110/119, what is going to be left there? I'm starting to wonder if I need to bother trying to get 110/119. Will it just be the spanish/international channels?


----------



## jefbal99

DarinC said:


> Whoa, ok, I haven't kept up with any of this stuff in a LONG time. They are coming out to upgrade me to be MPEG4 compatible (new dish & DVRs). I came to this thread to research what I needed, because I'm currently doing a two dish solution (one for 101, another for 110/119) to get around trees. I think I can get all the "new" satellites from my 101 dish location... I just need the 2nd one for 110/119. But if all the HD is being moved off of 110/119, what is going to be left there? I'm starting to wonder if I need to bother trying to get 110/119. Will it just be the spanish/international channels?


And locals


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## DarinC

jefbal99 said:


> And locals


Ok, thanks. But if my locals are HD, I'm assuming they would then be @ 99 or 103? Here in Atlanta, I'm thinking even the SD locals are @ 101, but I could be wrong. I'd have to look when I got home. When is this change going to take place? I know I need to search, but for some reason this site seems really slow. May have to try from home later... perhaps it's my work connection.


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## bobnielsen

There are many SD locals already on 119. Presumably the SD locals currently on 72.5 and international channels on 95 will migrate to 110/119 after the HD signals move to 99/103.


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## DarinC

Found a post in the DirecTV forums that seems to answer this...



> But later this year ALL the HD channels on the 110/119 satellites will migrate to the new satellites at 99 and 103 so then with an existing 3-lnb dish there will be no HD channels, you will need a new dish.
> After the HD channels move to 99/103 a new dish will become available; the new dish will receive only 99/101/103 and is expected to become the standard dish for people who don't need 119 for their SD locals or the Hispanic channels..


That is from a user labled as a "TechKnowGuide". I'm not familiar with those forums, but I'm assuming that's some kind of DirecTV rep? If so, then I guess that's reliable, and I suppose I wouldn't even need to worry with a 2nd dish. The only thing I might miss out on would be if any of my non-HD locals moved to 110/119, though I suppose even that could be solved with an AM21 since I already have an OTA antenna for my current HD-Tivo.

So I guess perhaps a good guess on what "later this year" means would be when the next sat goes up? Isn't that in August, or something like that?


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## litzdog911

DarinC said:


> ...
> 
> So I guess perhaps a good guess on what "later this year" means would be when the next sat goes up? Isn't that in August, or something like that?


There might be some overlap time before the MPEG2 HD channels are switch off on 110º and 119º. Everything I've heard suggests "by the end of this year". But it's likely that the current HD channels beamed from 110 and 119º will at least be mirrored from 99/103º as soon as D11 satellite goes active. DirecTV is testing a new 3-LNB Slimline dish that only receives 99, 101 and 103º satellites, so hopefully the transition will happen soon. Stay tuned here.


----------



## jefbal99

litzdog911 said:


> There might be some overlap time before the MPEG2 HD channels are switch off on 110º and 119º. Everything I've heard suggests "by the end of this year". But it's likely that the current HD channels beamed from 110 and 119º will at least be mirrored from 99/103º as soon as D11 satellite goes active. DirecTV is testing a new 3-LNB Slimline dish that only receives 99, 101 and 103º satellites, so hopefully the transition will happen soon. Stay tuned here.


Litz, are they doing consumer testing with the Slim3 or just internal testing? (i haven't looked at the thread in CE for the slim3 recently)

The reason I ask, is that if they are doing consumer testing, then the legacy HD channels may already be mirrored, but only visible to those with special access cards/account flags.

Just a thought...


----------



## litzdog911

jefbal99 said:


> Litz, are they doing consumer testing with the Slim3 or just internal testing? (i haven't looked at the thread in CE for the slim3 recently)
> 
> The reason I ask, is that if they are doing consumer testing, then the legacy HD channels may already be mirrored, but only visible to those with special access cards/account flags.
> 
> Just a thought...


I know that the "legacy HD channels" are not yet mirrored from the Ka-band satellites.

I don't know exactly what the testing status is for the Slimline3 dish.


----------



## tadfad

jefbal99 said:


> The reason I ask, is that if they are doing consumer testing, then the legacy HD channels may already be mirrored, but only visible to those with special access cards/account flags.


based on:
http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa103.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa110.html

these appear to be currently mirrored on 103 & 110:

* 281 ka / 76 ku - HD Theater (was Discovery HD Theater)
* 537 ka / 71 & 543 ku - Showtime East HD

although 537 actually shows on both the 103 & 110 list ??


----------



## Matt9876

When the HD move is completed Knoxville TN will be one of the areas for sure that will function on 99/101/103 only, and for the first time ever my job might get a bit easier.


----------



## litzdog911

tadfad said:


> based on:
> http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa103.html
> http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa110.html
> 
> these appear to be currently mirrored on 103 & 110:
> 
> * 281 ka / 76 ku - HD Theater (was Discovery HD Theater)
> * 537 ka / 71 & 543 ku - Showtime East HD
> 
> although 537 actually shows on both the 103 & 110 list ??


I'm afraid that Lyngsat is not always up-to-date or accurate. At this point none of the HD channels in the 70's are beamed (or mirrored) from the Ka-band satellites. Those higher channel numbers are still the same Ku-band signal.


----------



## tacua

Litz, what is actual average life of a LNB before replacing? And when and how do we know the time to replace them? I have 3 LNBs for 101,110 and 119 which are 1 1/2 years old. (in use).


----------



## litzdog911

tacua said:


> Litz, what is actual average life of a LNB before replacing? And when and how do we know the time to replace them? I have 3 LNBs for 101,110 and 119 which are 1 1/2 years old. (in use).


I'm still using one LNB that's almost 10-yrs old, so I have no idea what the "average" lifespan is. As long the LNB remains sealed from the elements, and don't experience nearby lightning strikes, there's not much that can fail.


----------



## nskatp

so?, no success stories yet in C.A. or South Mex for getting 103?


----------



## tacua

We are still waiting for the sat 103 footprint, and the new LNB for 99(new sat) & 103 to make the tests on 1.80 dish.Any info will be appreciated!


----------



## crashHD

tacua said:


> Litz, what is actual average life of a LNB before replacing? And when and how do we know the time to replace them? I have 3 LNBs for 101,110 and 119 which are 1 1/2 years old. (in use).


I've replaced one LNB in 6 years. I don't know what happened. My system at the time of failure consisted of one R10 Tivo, connected to both tuners, a non-dvr SD box, and a perfect vision 3x4 unpowered MS. I came home one day, and the non-dvr box could only get half the transponders (even or odd...forget which), the MS just plain gave erratic probems, from working fine one minute, to nothing on any line another minute, and the dual-output lnb was totally burned out on one output. I have no idea what happened, but my working theory is the non-dvr box took a dump, and took out the MS and one side of the LNB with it. I started keeping a spare LNB on hand after that. No problems since then. I guess it's just like cars...you'll never need the spare until it's flat.

I would say an LNB isn't really a part that you expect to wear out. It just works until one day it doesn't.


----------



## veryoldschool

I hope this thread doesn't get hijacked for reception outside of the US, as this isn't legal and could cause this thread to be closed, which would hurt those needing this info for legal reception problems.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Thanks, VOS, for bringing this to my attention. Folks, DBSTalk.com is a place for people in the US to discuss valid, legal issues with satellite TV and radio. While we're looking into expanding into covering Latin America and South America, at the moment we're US-only.


----------



## mayo*1

jbraden said:


> I agree with DoctorJ... the actual location of the 103 satellite is 102.8 degrees, or 1.8 degrees from the location of the 101 satellite. Although it will be harder to align a 6 ft. dish than a 4 ft. dish since the feedhorns are set up for the focal point of a 4 foot dish, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you would be able to receive a usable signal from both of these satellites from a single dish. On the other hand, if you want to use separate dishes for these two satellites, you should be able to do that as well using currently available equipment. The LNBs for the new Ka band satellites at 99 and 103 output a Ka-Hi band from 1650-2150MHz and a Ka-Lo band from 250-750MHz. These are combined with the older Ku band signals from 950-1450MHz. The Ka from 99 is combined with the Ku from 101, and the Ka from 103 is combined with the Ku from the merged 119/110 satellites. A setup for merging signals from four satellites (All except the 99 degree Ka band) should look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the LNB on this new 103 dish, you could use the DTVKAKUKIT or an LNB from an old AT9. Since you will always be supplying a 22KHz tone to this LNB, it will always select only the 103 satellite. Dish sizes can be as large as needed to achieve a usable signal. The LNBs must be carefully positioned at the dish focal points. The KAKUKIT LNB would also need to be rotated 1.8 degrees to align the feed horn for the 103 satellite perfectly. A much more difficult question is how to add the 99 satellite when D11 goes up in a few months. Currently I know of no solution if you can't get 99 and 101 using a single DTVKAKUKIT.


is the sonora polarity locker really needed in this setup?, or is it just for long cable runs. thanks.


----------



## carl6

mayo*1 said:


> is the sonora polarity locker really needed in this setup?, or is it just for long cable runs. thanks.


I would highly recommend it, but the setup might work without it. The WB68 will only provide the voltage/tone signal to the dish ports when there is a receiver that is sending that signal to the multiswitch. Thus, you could have one or more of the multiswitch inputs (from the dish) without the proper voltage/tone at any given time. The Sonora solves that problem by always powering them properly.

Carl


----------



## bruinfever

I love this thread..Its so informative and it keeps going and going....


----------



## Dirac

To keep it going further... 

With DIRECTV11 going live and all the HD content being mirrored to the new Ka sat, is it possible to use the Alaska/Hawaii 99/101/103 dish in the same manner as a Slimline 3? If so, I'd seriously consider changing out my AT9 dish to get a more rain fade proof signal. I would think it'd be straightforward, but then I saw another post suggesting you couldn't just remove the sidecar from an AT9 and still have it get the program data. Possibly the reason for that is due to the multiswitch inside the AT9 itself?

In any event, I'd hope the Alaska/Hawaii dish will work and get all the program data. Does it use a 2" pole mount like the AT9? If so, that would be a pretty simple swapout.


----------



## Oilfan

The Alaska/Hawaii dish is 47" in diameter (1.2M); totally differently mount than at9 or slimline.

I have first hand knowledge that AT9 without the sidecar still works. I get program guide data, but it isn't 2 weeks long I don't think, maybe a week.


----------



## Dirac

Thanks. I haven't been able to find any specs or drawings of the mounting. I can see the main mast and two monopoles in a couple of the pictures, but I can't tell how everything is mounted on the back of the dish and the diameters, etc. of the hardware.

I saw this image of the "sat farm" on the deck, and it looked like the AK/HI dish was tripod mounted.


----------



## DarinC

Dirac said:


> In any event, I'd hope the Alaska/Hawaii dish will work and get all the program data. Does it use a 2" pole mount like the AT9? If so, that would be a pretty simple swapout.


I've been considering that dish for the same reasons. It uses 2.5" schedule 40 pipe, which is 2.88" OD. A dish that size will need a much stronger base than the AT9. That's a pretty big sail.


----------



## Dirac

Excellent info, thanks DarinC!

I've got my 2" AT9 pole about 6-7 feet underground in 160 pounds of concrete, so "base strength" hasn't been a player with that setup for me. Maybe I'll use 240 pounds with the 1.2m dish. 

The wind has moved the AT9 around a bit--I think that would be less of a factor with the heavy Schedule 40 pipe than with my lightweight aluminum SuperDish pole, even considering the much-increased size of the dish. How I wished at the time I installed the AT9 that 2" OD was a standard pipe size and I could get a nice, heavy gauge.

I'm actually relieved to hear the 1.2m dish uses a nice-sized standard pipe, now I have to figure out if it is really worth it to dig up all that concrete to throw up a bigger dish.


----------



## DarinC

Dirac said:


> I haven't been able to find any specs or drawings of the mounting.


Dr. J was kind enough to scan the install docs and email them to me. I'll post them unless and until I learn there's any reason they shouldn't be public:

1st one

2nd one


----------



## evan_s

My understanding of the Hawaii dish is it has 2 inputs on it for 110/119 and if you actually do go that route it should be really easy to add 110/119 in using standard round dishes. It will work with out the 119 but it won't get guide updates while tuned to a 103 channel which can cause gaps in the channel info and possibly missed recordings due to bad guide data.


----------



## DarinC

evan_s said:


> My understanding of the Hawaii dish is it has 2 inputs on it for 110/119 and if you actually do go that route it should be really easy to add 110/119 in using standard round dishes.


According to Dr. J, the inputs only work with the output from the 110/119 LNBs that are meant for the AK/HI zones (which are intended to be mounted on a second 1.2m dish). Apparently the voltages, or something, is different on those LNBs.


----------



## Dirac

Thanks for posting the docs. Looks like I'll have to read up quite a lot on the SlimLine 3... it must get its guide data from a source other than the 119 dish, which made me think it wouldn't be a problem with the AH dish either.

Without researching much yet, it seems to me that there would be 3 possibilities: the receiver treats the SL3 differently than the other dishes that can see 99/101/103, the multiswitch in the SL3 ensures it can see guide data at all times (and the other dishes are designed to get it from 119), or the SL3 will have the same problems with guide data as the AH and AT9 without sidecar/additional dishes (at least until DirecTV decides to add guide data to another satellite). That last option seems unlikely--I can't see them releasing the SL3 with that big of a limitation, though.  

Just trying to make sense of everything before I break out the post hole digger again.


----------



## DarinC

It's apparently a difference in how the SL3 stacks the signals (it always has 101 in the output). BUT, I'm not convinced that the AK/HI setup _requires_ the 110/119 LNBs for proper operation (nothing explicitely states that). It's certainly possible that it senses whether or not those LNBs are attached, and stacks accordingly. Dr. J should be able to answer, as I believe he has a 1.2m dish without the 110/119 LNBs.


----------



## evan_s

DarinC said:


> According to Dr. J, the inputs only work with the output from the 110/119 LNBs that are meant for the AK/HI zones (which are intended to be mounted on a second 1.2m dish). Apparently the voltages, or something, is different on those LNBs.


Ahh didn't know about that. What a bummer. I'm guessing the Hawaii dish with out the second dish is just an unsupported config that mostly work just like those of us with Los issue on 119.


----------



## Dirac

DarinC said:


> It's apparently a difference in how the SL3 stacks the signals (it always has 101 in the output). BUT, I'm not convinced that the AK/HI setup _requires_ the 110/119 LNBs for proper operation (nothing explicitely states that). It's certainly possible that it senses whether or not those LNBs are attached, and stacks accordingly. Dr. J should be able to answer, as I believe he has a 1.2m dish without the 110/119 LNBs.


Even if that's not the case, there may be a (small) chance that the 99/101/103 LNB assembly could be redesigned at some point for use in both single- and multi-dish applications, now that all HD is on these sats and there may be more people trying to do what we are talking about, both CONUS and in AK/HI.


----------



## doctor j

Dirac said:


> Even if that's not the case, there may be a (small) chance that the 99/101/103 LNB assembly could be redesigned at some point for use in both single- and multi-dish applications, now that all HD is on these sats and there may be more people trying to do what we are talking about, both CONUS and in AK/HI.


I combined the 110/119 as this was intended to be a full 5 sat / 2 or 3 dish solution.
It does work fine as a single 99/101/103 solution but several threads have questioned the guide data issue. No one has confirmed that it is a real issue.
Mine was a test setup therefore the tripods on the deck. But i've had it up for a week or two at a time with no issues.

Happy to respond to other questions.

It is a big dish / a bit of a pain to align.
The mount is massive ,easily 4 times the size/ bulk/ weight of the AT-9/AU-9 mount.
The signal power is massive also, about 10X the AT-9.

Doctor j


----------



## doctor j

A hawaii installer reported many single dish 99/101/103 installs w/o problems

Doctor j


----------



## Dirac

Sounds like you don't have the dish anymore (never was permanently installed)?

Where would I pick one of these up? The Satellite Shop is the only place I found with Google. Of course if anyone wanted to send me one I'd be happy to test it out for everyone here...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Oilfan said:


> The Alaska/Hawaii dish is 47" in diameter (1.2M); totally differently mount than at9 or slimline.
> 
> I have first hand knowledge that AT9 without the sidecar still works. I get program guide data, but it isn't 2 weeks long I don't think, maybe a week.


Take a receiver and have all the tuners aimed at 103 for a day. Wait for reboot...

(Unless you are using a SWM, that also will work just as an SL3 will.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## doctor j

I have the dish and recently set it up again to answer a specific problem another member was having with the LNB.
Mount was reversed 180 degrees. moved it about an inch on the arm but that littte nudge was the difference in bringing in both 99 and 103 as opposed to one or the other. ie the alignment pain!

I do have SWM's as my main distribution option at present.

Also have MFH-1 stacker and WB-68's as pieces of other experiments.

My dish/multiswitch/receiver setup changes weekly.

Wife approval factor failed on the permanent DTVAH12DISH installation!


----------



## doctor j

Satellite shop is where I bought mine and they were great to work with!

Doctor j


----------



## Dirac

doctor j said:


> Wife approval factor failed on the permanent DTVAH12DISH installation!


I'm hoping the WAF of not losing another "American Idol" recording to rain fade will outweigh the WAF of keeping the smaller dish. 

Thanks for all the advice, guys. It now appears that since there are no technical hurdles (just leave the receivers dialed in to the 103 bird for 24 hrs or use a SWM?) I have to decide whether to dig that hole again, remove 160 lbs of concrete, and drop $460 on a dish kit (GainMaster with multiswitch was about half that, if I recall).


----------



## Dirac

Tom Robertson said:


> Take a receiver and have all the tuners aimed at 103 for a day. Wait for reboot...
> 
> (Unless you are using a SWM, that also will work just as an SL3 will.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I have taken the sidecar off of my AT9. Question now is do I need to, or should I re-run satellite setup for something other than "Slimline 5" (what it is set to now)?


----------



## tacua

doctor j said:


> I have the dish and recently set it up again to answer a specific problem another member was having with the LNB.
> Mount was reversed 180 degrees. moved it about an inch on the arm but that littte nudge was the difference in bringing in both 99 and 103 as opposed to one or the other. ie the alignment pain!
> 
> I do have SWM's as my main distribution option at present.
> 
> Also have MFH-1 stacker and WB-68's as pieces of other experiments.
> 
> My dish/multiswitch/receiver setup changes weekly.
> 
> Wife approval factor failed on the permanent DTVAH12DISH installation!


Dr.J: Will you please explain what you mean by "the mount was reversed 180 degrees,etc." Thanks in advance.


----------



## litzdog911

Dirac said:


> I have taken the sidecar off of my AT9. Question now is do I need to, or should I re-run satellite setup for something other than "Slimline 5" (what it is set to now)?


It probably doesn't really matter. But if you set it "SlimLine3" you won't see channels beamed from 110 and 119º in your Guide.


----------



## Oilfan

litzdog911 said:


> It probably doesn't really matter. But if you set it "SlimLine3" you won't see channels beamed from 110 and 119º in your Guide.


Yes, you will.


----------



## texasbrit

Oilfan said:


> Yes, you will.


No you won't, not if it is working correctly. When you set SL3 the 110/119 channels should not appear in your guide at all. However, if you have a 5lnb dish and set it to "Slimline3", you won't get ANY guide data refreshed when you are watching transponders on 103 for a long period of time (just the same problem as a slimline that can't see 119). The SL3 setting is expecting the 101 transponder carrying the guide to be diplexed on to the 103 signals and of course it won't be there.


----------



## Oilfan

Well, I have a AT9 with no side car and I get 110/119 channels listed in the guide and always have had it listed in the guide. Guide goes 12 days last time I checked (yesterday)


----------



## DarinC

Oilfan said:


> Guide goes 12 days last time I checked (yesterday)


You don't need 119 to get guide data, it's also on 101. Leave both tuners on 103 for a day or two, THEN see what happens.


----------



## texasbrit

Oilfan said:


> Well, I have a AT9 with no side car and I get 110/119 channels listed in the guide and always have had it listed in the guide. Guide goes 12 days last time I checked (yesterday)


If you set it up as an SL3 then the 110/119 channels should disappear, unless there is a software bug (in which case thanks for finding it!) , because the SL3 can't see 110/119. If it's set up as a slimline 5 then 110/119 will be in the guide, even though the LNBs aren't there..


----------



## Oilfan

texasbrit said:


> If you set it up as an SL3 then the 110/119 channels should disappear, unless there is a software bug (in which case thanks for finding it!) , because the SL3 can't see 110/119. If it's set up as a slimline 5 then 110/119 will be in the guide, even though the LNBs aren't there..


My apologies. I have it set to slimline 5, not SL3 which is why I see 110/119 channels. Sorry for jumping the gun and any confusion. I do get 12+ days of guide information without having to leave both tuners on 103 though for an extended period of time.


----------



## veryoldschool

Oilfan said:


> My apologies. I have it set to slimline 5, not SL3 which is why I see 110/119 channels. Sorry for jumping the gun and any confusion. I do get 12+ days of guide information without having to leave both tuners on 103 though for an extended period of time.


I think there are four guide data streams just for this reason. Even and odd transponders and 101 & 119, [maybe more with 99/103 now too].


----------



## doctor j

tacua said:


> Dr.J: Will you please explain what you mean by "the mount was reversed 180 degrees,etc." Thanks in advance.


the DTVAHKAKUKIT lnb mounts to a frame that bolts to the lnb arm. you can mount the frame on the arm in either of two directions. The focal point of the lnb moves abount an inch. Right way ok wrong way focal point doesn't see all three sats.

I can give a picture of the correct mount.
the instructions don't make it clear how in fits correctly.

see pix:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1350332&postcount=327

Doctor j


----------



## DarinC

Oilfan said:


> I do get 12+ days of guide information without having to leave both tuners on 103 though for an extended period of time.


The concern isn't having to leave it on 103, the concern is IF you leave it on 103. While tuned to channels on 103, neither 101 NOR 119 are in the stack. So you are left without guide data. If you spend an extended period with both tuners set to 103, you may not get guide data.


----------



## mayo*1

fo71 said:


> Hi guys... I have been following this thread for months patiently with much interest to a point that just for the fun of it I may start to get some of the hardware to run tests of my own. It's awesome what you've all acomplished working as a team. Congrats !
> 
> Here's my two cents on adding 99 as a 5th solo dish obviously considering that 101 and 99 are on the same side (non 22khz).
> 
> Time back I was introduced to diplexers, It amazed me at the time how cable and satellite could be combined and then split using one cable. I then understood that out of the whole bandwidth scale, a chunk (950-1450Mhz) was taken out of the whole and sent to one of the legs of the diplexer along with power. The rest of the scale (below 950, and above 1450) was sent to the other leg to be used by cable. Diplexers normally handle 50 to 2300 Mhz.
> 
> Having said the above, using diplexers between the sonora (diplexer input/output) and the 101 lnb (diplexer sat leg) filters out perfectly along with the powers needs for 101 to work with no problem.
> 
> Now, here's the fun part, using the cable legs on the diplexer for the 99 sat, also filters out perfectly the frequencies needed for ka Hi/Lo @ 99. The only issue here would be power.
> 
> For power we shall also include a couple of HFS-2P splitter/combiners between the diplexer cable leg and the ka/ku lnb in this case used for 99 only. OK, so we now have the signals filtered out or properly routed and the HFS-2P's give us the extra port to inject power. Any powered multiswitch used for power injection would do the trick connecting a cable from the multiswitch's +18v and +13v to each of the corresponding HFS-2P's legs.
> 
> What do you think?


Fo71; im very interested on adding 99 to this setup, (i have this exact setup of 4 separate dish, no 99) i really need 99 for my sunday ticket. i dont mind if i loose 119, as i get my locals from 103 now.
were you able to do it? just curious as how did you do it.
thanks!


----------



## veryoldschool

mayo*1 said:


> Fo71; im very interested on adding 99 to this setup, (i have this exact setup of 4 separate dish, no 99) i really need 99 for my sunday ticket. i dont mind if i loose 119, as i get my locals from 103 now.
> were you able to do it? just curious as how did you do it.
> thanks!


I'm not sure how far "south" you are, but it might be better to take your question to PM [PM Fo71], as this thread has been "restricted" to reception "within the US".


----------



## tacua

Will someone tell me what HD channels(DTV) are transmitted on both 110 and 119 sats. The lyngsat pages are not accurate and updated, thanks,


----------



## curt8403

tacua said:


> Will someone tell me what HD channels(DTV) are transmitted on both 110 and 119 sats. The lyngsat pages are not accurate and updated, thanks,


meaning the same channel on both 110 and 119 or just the channels that are on those two sats


----------



## tacua

curt8403 said:


> meaning the same channel on both 110 and 119 or just the channels that are on those two sats


Just the HD channels on 110 ex.= espnhd- channel 73, etc,etc
and 119= ex. hbohd -channel 70, etc,etc


----------



## curt8403

tacua said:


> Just the HD channels on 110 ex.= espnhd- channel 73, etc,etc
> and 119= ex. hbohd -channel 70, etc,etc


right, the channels in the 70s and maybe 80s, but they are redundants, and are about to be removed.


----------



## tacua

Why would D* would want to remove the 70,s and 80,s?
I get a better Q picture in the Ku sats than the Ka sats.
Even if they are redundant , they give us a crispier and clearer picture.


----------



## harsh

tacua said:


> Why would D* would want to remove the 70,s and 80,s?
> I get a better Q picture in the Ku sats than the Ka sats.


Satellite service is all about bandwidth and the Ka versions take less space that will allow DIRECTV to add new services.


----------



## litzdog911

tacua said:


> Why would D* would want to remove the 70,s and 80,s?
> I get a better Q picture in the Ku sats than the Ka sats.
> Even if they are redundant , they give us a crispier and clearer picture.


Really? Many of us have compared those MPEG2 HD channels with the newer MPEG4 versions and find that the MPEG4 versions look better. Plus they use less bandwidth.

At any rate, those MPEG2 HD channels will be gone in a few months.


----------



## CKNAV

tacua said:


> Why would D* would want to remove the 70,s and 80,s?
> I get a better Q picture in the Ku sats than the Ka sats.
> Even if they are redundant , they give us a crispier and clearer picture.


Because they are MPEG2 and look a lot worse than MPEG4. If you think that MPEG2 channels look better than MPEG4 versions, you need to check your tv or your vision.


----------



## tacua

CKNAV said:


> Because they are MPEG2 and look a lot worse than MPEG4. If you think that MPEG2 channels look better than MPEG4 versions, you need to check your tv or your vision.


Why don,t you check your town first(where your getting your MPEG4). Mine come from NYC, channels 80 thru 88.


----------



## tacua

You mean new HD services on sats 110 and 119?


----------



## tacua

New HD services on sats 110 and 119?


----------



## veryoldschool

tacua said:


> Why don,t you check your town first(where your getting your MPEG4). Mine come from NYC, channels 80 thru 88.


Those are the "old legacy DNS" channels, where the new MPEG-4 are in the 380-390s.
FWIW: the older MPEG-2 HD has reduced horizontal resolution to reduce bandwidth, that isn't done with the MPEG-4 channels.


----------



## CKNAV

tacua said:


> Why don,t you check your town first(where your getting your MPEG4). Mine come from NYC, channels 80 thru 88.


So do mine as I live in NYC and CT. Also 80 thru 88 are MPEG2 DNS which will be shut down soon. The new MPEG4 national versions are 390 thru 398. NYC MPEG4 locals actually come from D10 satellite and are seperate from DNS feeds. You should check your facts before posting totally wrong information.


----------



## fo71

Hi there, happy new year. Going back to the escense of this thread, I here post a question:

Do you guys know the difference between the SL3P and DTVAHKAKU lnbs? I mean besides the later one having ports for 110/119 is there other major electronic difference in its design? I ask this because a friend with LOS issues looking at the original four dish setup posted in this thread almost a year back, told me that he was not able to succesfully combine the SL3P lnb for 103 along with separate 110/119 dishes using HS2P splitter/combiners. When connecting 103 legs, signal for both 110 and 119 go away.

Thanks !


----------



## tacua

Sorry, but I see no difference between channels 80 and 390, and btw i checked my vision and the xbr,s


----------



## br408408

fo71 said:


> Hi there, happy new year. Going back to the escense of this thread, I here post a question:
> 
> Do you guys know the difference between the SL3P and DTVAHKAKU lnbs? I mean besides the later one having ports for 110/119 is there other major electronic difference in its design? I ask this because a friend with LOS issues looking at the original four dish setup posted in this thread almost a year back, told me that he was not able to succesfully combine the SL3P lnb for 103 along with separate 110/119 dishes using HS2P splitter/combiners. When connecting 103 legs, signal for both 110 and 119 go away.
> 
> Thanks !


The SL3P stacks the 101 on both the 99 and the 103. The DTVAHKAKU stacks the 101 only on the 99. The inputs for 110 and 119 are stacked on the 103. The SL3P does this so you will have guide data when tuned to a channel from the 103. With the DTVAHKAKU the guide data would come from the 119 when tuned to a channel from the 103. So, if you try to use an SL3P with combiners and separate dishes, the 101 signal that is always present (even when tuned to the 103) will interfere with the signal from the 110 and 119 from your friends separate dishes.

I sure some else will post a much longer and more technically in depth responce....tone, no tone.....etc, but simply put, this is your freinds problem.


----------



## fo71

Thanks for your answer, so in other words the SL3P "emulates" 101 guide data as if it was coming from 119 ? So both 101's guide data (or signal) and the 119's guide data on a separate dish both interfere?

Having been explained this, I think that is the whole escense of SL3P right? That you don't need to have signal from 119.

Thanks again !


----------



## nskatp

Still no solution on how to use 3 separate dishes for 101, 99 and 103?, a 2-dish solution for 101 and 103 was posted earlier, wondering if someone found a way to have 1 dish per sat for 101, 99 and 103.


----------



## veryoldschool

nskatp said:


> Still no solution on how to use 3 separate dishes for 101, 99 and 103?, a 2-dish solution for 101 and 103 was posted earlier, wondering if someone found a way to have 1 dish per sat for 101, 99 and 103.


 "Normally" within the US you can get 99 & 101 on the same dish, since they're only 2 degrees apart.
This thread was started for the 101, 110, 119 SATs. Since they're spacing is much farther apart, trees [etc.] can have been more of a problem. Since the new Ka SATs are so close to 101, there shouldn't be a problem.
Those outside of the US may have problems, but since this would be considered "hacking" DirecTV service, this forum won't support it.


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## harsh

nskatp said:


> Still no solution on how to use 3 separate dishes for 101, 99 and 103?, a 2-dish solution for 101 and 103 was posted earlier, wondering if someone found a way to have 1 dish per sat for 101, 99 and 103.


Ka LNBs are few and far between and that seems likely to be a big hurdle.


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## doctor j

As more experiments come to mind , I continue to try to make simple things hard.

I've seen several reports of attempts to separate 99/101/103 sat signals from one another for rare LOS issues.
Difficulty in separating 99/101 has been discussed elsewhere.

I've come across a very novel solution I believe using diplexors as band pass (and power pass) filters. 
Powering the LNB's of 2 slimlines separately and combining 99 and 101 via the diplexor will get 99 conus (Ka Low) and 101 Ku.
Don't think this is a complete solution since Ka High (spotbeams) will be stripped out by the TV side of the diplexor. 

This however could work for folks with very narrow windows ,needing separate 99 and 103 feeds, and having locals on 103!??

Doctor j


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## Voodoo

Doctor J, have you tried this setup? 
Would I need three separate slimlines?


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## veryoldschool

Voodoo said:


> Doctor J, have you tried this setup?
> Would I need three separate slimlines?


It's known to work, but is only needed in locations outside of the legal reception area for DirecTV, so can't be discussed here.


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## Tom Robertson

Dr. J's solution still leaves out guide data when tuned to channels on 103°.

The best answer these days is either a SWM based solution or better yet a Slimline 3 solution.


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## Voodoo

With all the migration to 99-101-103 Will we just need one antenna pointed at those three?


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## Voodoo

veryoldschool said:


> It's known to work, but is only needed in locations outside of the legal reception area for DirecTV, so can't be discussed here.


Again that is not the intent! I am a proud subscriber of DTV and a long time one too (1997) Since I am planning on going to Puerto Rico for a while I was hoping I could legally get the signal over there and continue to enjoy the large variety of HD channels! It is only through reasearch in this fine website that I can figure it out as customer service is not technical enough to tell me what I need to know! I have figured however that trying to get the 99-101-103 birds in PR would be outside the framwework of what's authorized by DTV because theses sats are apparently not yet broadcasted there. The next question I had was is there a plan to extend the footprint of these sats to that area anytime soon?


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## veryoldschool

Voodoo said:


> Again that is not the intent! I am a proud subscriber of DTV and a long time one too (1997) Since I am planning on going to Puerto Rico for a while I was hoping I could legally get the signal over there and continue to enjoy the large variety of HD channels! It is only through reasearch in this fine website that I can figure it out as customer service is not technical enough to tell me what I need to know! I have figured however that trying to get the 99-101-103 birds in PR would be outside the framwework of what's authorized by DTV because theses sats are apparently not yet broadcasted there. The next question I had was is there a plan to extend the footprint of these sats to that area anytime soon?


I think why customer service didn't have the information is because the current dishes work without what is described in this thread.
When this thread started, 110 & 119 were needed more than they are now and D10 & D11 SATs hadn't been launched.
With the current SATs and and the new Slimline3, "the most" someone would need for legal reception would now be a Slimline3 and a second dish for 119.
The field of view for 99 to 103 is so narrow, that if anyone were to need three dishes, more than likely isn't a LOS problem, but they're out of the legal reception area and wanting to use larger dishes to point to different locations than what the Slimline3.
The only real activity in this thread for the past six months or so has been from those outside the US. Then the mods have to delete them.


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## Stuart Sweet

At this point, I'm choosing to close this thread. It seems to me that the only possibility for this line of questioning is people trying to get DIRECTV where they have no legal right to. 

I don't mean to make such an accusation, so if you have some information about how this would pertain to using DIRECTV service legally, in accord with the Customer Agreement... please send me a private message. Thanks.


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