# Home Networking on the HR20



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

Was reading about this in another thread and didn't want to continue to derail that thread so I figured I would start a new thread to discuss what is known about netowrking for the HR20 and what we hope wish for out of it. 

When it is enabled it is safe to say that we will be able to then use our HR20 to view pictures and listed to music from computers hooked up to the home network. 

What I am hoping for is the ability to 

1) Share programs between two HR20s
2) Use the networking feature to pull down "On Demand" Type programming

What does everyone think and what else is everyone else wishing for with regards to networking on the HR20?


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

would like a 'access point' type box for my other tv's


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

Thta would be a cool idea. Does anyone know if the home networking features will work with XP or will we have to have Windows Media Center version installed?


----------



## Just J (Oct 11, 2006)

Mixer said:


> What does everyone think and what else is everyone else wishing for with regards to networking on the HR20?


I primarily want the ability to use the internet to tell it to record something. I hate when I'm on the road and find out there's a great show on that I didn't know about.

As an adjunct to that, a nice to have would be the ability to come in over the internet and maintain (view & delete items in) the My Playlist and ToDo list screens. Might need it to make room for that cool new program, and or to ensure it doesn't get deleted before I get a chance to see it.


----------



## qubit (Mar 17, 2006)

yes the sharing aspect of it is cool but most useful for me would be basically a web interface to manage the box. Set recordings, delete recordings, view things. Basically everything you can do now within the menuing interface I'd like to see a web interface for.


----------



## Barmat (Aug 27, 2006)

Mixer said:


> Thta would be a cool idea. Does anyone know if the home networking features will work with XP or will we have to have Windows Media Center version installed?


Don't have link but read that the interface was going to be w/ Vista and intel chip set only. Infact the computer would have to pass some stupid Intel certification so no homebuilt PC's could work.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Mixer said:


> 1) Share programs between two HR20s


The chance of this happening is vanishingly small.


> 2) Use the networking feature to pull down "On Demand" Type programming


This is a wait and see thing. I would not make any plans based on this concept.


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

If that is true (and I hope for all of our sake it isn't) then D* shot themselves in the foot big time. XP is in the most homes arounfd the country and is likely to be the number one used OS for at least 1 or 2 more years.



Barmat said:


> Don't have link but read that the interface was going to be w/ Vista and intel chip set only. Infact the computer would have to pass some stupid Intel certification so no homebuilt PC's could work.


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

Yes being able to control the HR20 from the internet would be a great idea.



Just J said:


> I primarily want the ability to use the internet to tell it to record something. I hate when I'm on the road and find out there's a great show on that I didn't know about.
> 
> As an adjunct to that, a nice to have would be the ability to come in over the internet and maintain (view & delete items in) the My Playlist and ToDo list screens. Might need it to make room for that cool new program, and or to ensure it doesn't get deleted before I get a chance to see it.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Barmat said:


> Don't have link but read that the interface was going to be w/ Vista and intel chip set only. Infact the computer would have to pass some stupid Intel certification so no homebuilt PC's could work.


The acronym that you're looking for is Viiv. Viiv is not impossible on home-built machines, but it does seem to be inexorably tied to selected Intel Core Duo processors and chipsets.


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Mixer said:


> Yes being able to control the HR20 from the internet would be a great idea.


A Slingbox would take care of that problem.


----------



## Barmat (Aug 27, 2006)

I found the link to the CES anouncement. No mention of Vista only just the need for intel. Late 2006 HAHAHAHhhahahahaha. Ha :hurah: :hurah: :hurah:

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20060105corp_a.htm


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

True but having it directly interface with the HR20 would save each person $200, so unles D* has invested interest in Slingbox it would not serve their customers well to say "don't worry about that feature, they can get s lingbox"



Chris Blount said:


> A Slingbox would take care of that problem.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Chris Blount said:


> A Slingbox would take care of that problem.


Yes it does.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Mixer said:


> True but having it directly interface with the HR20 would save each person $200, so unles D* has invested interest in Slingbox it would not serve their customers well to say "don't worry about that feature, they can get s lingbox"


Funny you should mention that. Dish Network is vested in Slingbox. Apparently the Slingbox founders were frustrated that they couldn't receive Dish Network at work so they came up with a solution.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Right now, based on the annoucements, articles, and "other" information.

The first usage of the network connection is going to be to ViiV systems.
For Pictures and Audio.

From what I know about ViiV it is an add-on to Media Center (from a software point of view), on the Intel ViiV pages you can download testers and other things to see if your system can be "ViiV"ed.

There are other things planned for the network connection as well...
But I can't spill the beans yet... 

However, I will say... sharing video content amongst two HR20s... is not in the cards right now.


----------



## dconfer (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl,
Any word on this feature for the ViiV systems? I know they said before the end of 2006. I have one of these systems already so I am waiting for it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

dconfer said:


> Earl,
> Any word on this feature for the ViiV systems? I know they said before the end of 2006. I have one of these systems already so I am waiting for it.


The latest word, is that they are still on track to have it by years end.


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

would love to be able to play my mp3s off my server!


----------



## dconfer (Nov 18, 2005)

Thanks Earl, I am more excited over this feature then OTA because I cant get OTA where I am at. Even got the DNS feeds from NYC even though my sd feeds are local ones.


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

So Earl is that to say that the networking features of the HR20 will never be available to non VIIV systems or just not at the initial rollout



Earl Bonovich said:


> Right now, based on the annoucements, articles, and "other" information.
> 
> *The first usage of the network connection is going to be to ViiV systems.
> For Pictures and Audio.*
> ...


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Mixer said:


> So Earl is that to say that the networking features of the HR20 will not be available to non VIIV systems or just not at the initial rollout


I don't know the details on what will or will not be available on non-ViiV units.


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

Based on that link it appears that this will only be available to PCs that are capable of the VIIV technology. That means if your PC is from beofre THIS year or you plan on upgrading your processcor and chipset you wont be able to use these networking features.

I wonder what percentage of D* subscribers will be unable to use this? I am guessing about 70% or higher.



Barmat said:


> I found the link to the CES anouncement. No mention of Vista only just the need for intel. Late 2006 HAHAHAHhhahahahaha. Ha :hurah: :hurah: :hurah:
> 
> http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20060105corp_a.htm


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

Thanks for the reply. I just hope D* does not alienate customers by putting rescrictions like that in place.



Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't know the details on what will or will not be available on non-ViiV units.


----------



## Barmat (Aug 27, 2006)

Watch videos bought at Itunes on a non-Ipod handheld, nope. Move video or audio to a non-Viiv PC, nope. Listen to MP3 bought from Microsoft on my zune pre Zune Nope. Watch a HD-DVD on a blue ray player, nope. All this exclusive content is starting to piss me off.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Barmat said:


> Watch videos bought at Itunes on a non-Ipod handheld, nope. Move video or audio to a non-Viiv PC, nope. Listen to MP3 bought from Microsoft on my zune pre Zune Nope. Watch a HD-DVD on a blue ray player, nope. All this exclusive content is starting to piss me off.


Welcome to the parinoia of the content creators.


----------



## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Right now, based on the annoucements, articles, and "other" information.
> 
> The first usage of the network connection is going to be to ViiV systems.
> For Pictures and Audio.
> ...


Setting up recordings over the internet would be my biggest interest... How do those beans look?


----------



## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

Now that I have matrix switching in a central room distributed throughout the house, networking isnt important to me. What I would like to see is Video on Demand. They better hurry up though. The new content coming out with the XBox 360 Live may trump anything D* does directly. So far pretty impressed with the new features in the Xbox Live marketplace. HD content is growing pretty quickly.


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> sharing video content amongst two HR20s... is not in the cards right now.


But they've already got the Ucentric code in the box...


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

So if the technology for it is in there I wonder why they would not push for this. After-all it would make me go out and get another HR20 right away if this was available.



Jeremy W said:


> But they've already got the Ucentric code in the box...


----------



## jayvista (Oct 19, 2006)

I think I would have more luck teaching my dog to juggle before DirecTV can release "home networking" functionality that actually works. I would suggest, perhaps, maybe they can first get their dam box to actually work as a basic DVR before they even think about additional features.


----------



## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

I would strongly vote for the Sharing between HR20s.

Why should those of use with two HR20s have to record the same shows on both units to watch them?

Seems like a great addition if we can get someone at D* to listen and beat the copyright goons off with a stick :bonk1:


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

At this point my greatest concern is how many people will actually even be using the networking features if it requires a VIIV PC.

Seems crazy to me that they would put this strong requirement on this.


----------



## richardeholder (Dec 7, 2005)

When they enable the network interface, I would love to see the following features when you have multiple HR20s

* Remote scheduling over internet
* Remote viewing of programs recorded on another machine at same location
* Shared scheduling, distribute todo activities across all machines (record 4 or more programs at one time)


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Mixer said:


> Seems crazy to me that they would put this strong requirement on this.


It does seem crazy, until you realize that Intel is paying to make that happen.


----------



## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

Isn't the HMC setup supposed to answer all the networking issues?

How's that coming? 

And what level of compatability will it have with the HR20?


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

Jeremy...then I would have to ask what percentage of the Intel userbase actually has one of these VIIV compatible chips. I would have to think it is not 50% even.

I work with PCs but not so much on the hardware side. Is upgrading to one of these chips and the MSMediaCenter OS all I would need to do in order to be "in"



Jeremy W said:


> It does seem crazy, until you realize that Intel is paying to make that happen.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Kapeman said:


> Isn't the HMC setup supposed to answer all the networking issues?
> 
> How's that coming?
> 
> And what level of compatability will it have with the HR20?


Long ways away, and unkown compatability with the HR20


----------



## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

I could care less about being able to view pictures and play MP3s thru my HR20.

That's what I use my PC for. 

I bought the HR20 to record and playback SD&HD TV programs.


----------



## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

glennb said:


> I could care less about being able to view pictures and play MP3s thru my HR20.
> 
> That's what I use my PC for.
> 
> I bought the HR20 to record and playback SD&HD TV programs.


Ditto. I have a Mac (with Intel processors) to do the "other" sort of stuff.

However, I would still like some networking options: the ability to play video from my DVR on my Mac, the ability to change some settings or set up recordings over the network, etc.

But yeah, I could care less about MP3s or pictures.


----------



## sbcale (Aug 19, 2006)

richardeholder said:


> When they enable the network interface, I would love to see the following features when you have multiple HR20s
> 
> * Remote scheduling over internet
> * Remote viewing of programs recorded on another machine at same location
> * Shared scheduling, distribute todo activities across all machines (record 4 or more programs at one time)


Same here. This would make me buy an HR20 for every TV in the house. Why does DirecTV not seem to think these features are important to stay competitive? Also what about the Windows Media Center DirecTV tuner card, does any one have any new info about that? At least with that I could record to a media center PC and stream the content to my Xbox 360s.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

sbcale said:


> Same here. This would make me buy an HR20 for every TV in the house. Why does DirecTV not seem to think these features are important to stay competitive? Also what about the Windows Media Center DirecTV tuner card, does any one have any new info about that? At least with that I could record to a media center PC and stream the content to my Xbox 360s.


Who said they don't see those things as important?

Right now, name another product out there that is offering MRV for HD content, in HD?

As for the Tuner Card, we probably won't hear any more about the card until Visita's Commercial public launch.


----------



## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

sbcale said:


> Same here. This would make me buy an HR20 for every TV in the house. Why does DirecTV not seem to think these features are important to stay competitive? Also what about the Windows Media Center DirecTV tuner card, does any one have any new info about that? At least with that I could record to a media center PC and stream the content to my Xbox 360s.


Last I heard, the tuner card is still in the cards for 2007. There appears to be a significant correlation back to the new security features in Windows Vista before D* is comfortable putting that card out there.

I personally already have the released version of Vista Ultimate running, and if D* delivers the tuner card I will probably dump my HR20. Vista's UI is a hundred times better, and I really like the capabilities it offers. My HTPC is home-built though so I get a little worried about ViiV, but really think D* is much more tied to things like integrated HDCP and disk encryption.


----------



## dvrblogger (Jan 11, 2005)

Just J said:


> I primarily want the ability to use the internet to tell it to record something. I hate when I'm on the road and find out there's a great show on that I didn't know about.
> 
> As an adjunct to that, a nice to have would be the ability to come in over the internet and maintain (view & delete items in) the My Playlist and ToDo list screens. Might need it to make room for that cool new program, and or to ensure it doesn't get deleted before I get a chance to see it.


THis can be accomplished today using a slingbox. It will let you set recordings or watch your DIRECTV from any sling client (PC, Cellphone,PDA).


----------



## sbcale (Aug 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Right now, name another product out there that is offering MRV for HD content, in HD?


Microsoft is doing it now in Media Center with OTA and as soon as Vista Media Centers pops up you will be able to do it with a CableCard approved Media Center and Media extenders like the Xbox 360.

I am just looking for a way to extend my HD viewing to all of my TVs. Currently I have my SAT-T60, R10, and R15 all hooked up to a channel modulator and hardwired IR distribution. I can watch any of the DVRs in any room. Currently there is no econmical way to distribute the HD signal to all the HDTVs in my house. Not only that but the HR20 only has 2 separate IR frequencies so I would be limited to 2 HR20s. With some sort of streaming, Windows Media Center or HMC solution, it would solve my problem. Sorry, but I am just being impatient here


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Mixer said:


> Jeremy...then I would have to ask what percentage of the Intel userbase actually has one of these VIIV compatible chips. I would have to think it is not 50% even.


It's much smaller than that, but Intel wants it to grow. That's why they pay people like DirecTV to make products that "require" VIIV in order to work. VIIV is simply a reference platform, nothing more. There will be nothing that the HR20 will do that will absolutely "require" a VIIV system in order for it to work. The software they release will probably just check if it's being installed on a VIIV system, and refuse to install if it's not. It'll probably be hacked relatively quickly to work on any system.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> The software they release will probably just check if it's being installed on a VIIV system, and refuse to install if it's not. It'll probably be hacked relatively quickly to work on any system.


If it's an MSI installer, I could whip up an altered installer in a few minutes :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> If it's an MSI installer, I could whip up an altered installer in a few minutes :lol:


Let's just hope they make it that easy for us...


----------



## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

richardeholder said:


> When they enable the network interface, I would love to see the following features when you have multiple HR20s
> 
> * Remote scheduling over internet
> * Remote viewing of programs recorded on another machine at same location
> * Shared scheduling, distribute todo activities across all machines (record 4 or more programs at one time)


These features would be great, especially the 2nd and 3rd ones. If you have two or three HR20s, there should be an option to "mesh them together" and just use the available tuners to record whatever you've asked for.

I do hope they get the basic bugs fixed - blaming a non-trivial portion of customers for their setup or introduce software releases that break new things while fixing old bugs isn't really a platform on which to introduce advanced features with confidence 

I for one think it would be less complex to move to the "central DVR with remote dumb receivers" model. You'd have one device with a big hard drive, 4 or 8 tuners, and all the fancy software. The dumb receivers would connect to the main receiver and just stream content. Maybe throw in a teensy flash drive or more RAM for better buffering. All the scheduling, etc. could be contained in one machine.


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

Controlling the HR20 from my PC (Mac O/S) on a LAN would be great when I want to schedule something days in advance. Using a keyboard is so much easier than using the remote control when I need to enter the name of the show.

I care very little about playing my mp3's through the TV and I don't care at all about looking at my photos there, but it would be wonderful if I could play my MPEG, DivX, and video_ts a/v content on the TV. Also, internet radio from my Radio 365 subscription would be nice. I like to switch between Salsa Gorda and Timba styles of Salsa depending on my mood, but XM doesn't have any Salsa channels at all.

My number one concern is robust transit options through the recordings, i.e. instant 30 second skip, 60x scan, jump to tick, etc. 

My second biggest wish is robust networking of multiple HR20's. Otherwise, every time I watch a show I have to run around the house deleting that episode from all the other TV's. 

The network could also give me more than two tuners and more than one buffer. There will be three of four good shows on at once during sweeps, but then nothing during the summer. Instead of recording the same show on every TV, I'd like to use the extra tuners to record shows on other channels and use the extra storage space to save some shows for the summer. 

Sometimes, I like to have a few TV's mirror each other. So, I can walk around the house cleaning up, or move from the family room to the kitchen to check on dinner, to my office to check a web site, to the dining room to eat, and to the bathroom to soak in the tub, and still watch (well I mostly just listen) the same show the whole time.

These networking features are very important to me, much more so than HD for example. So, I'm bummed that we're not going to get them from DirecTV. When the software update gave my DirecTivo dual tuners, it was so far ahead of what I could do with a PC based DVR that I thought PCs would never catch up. Since then, progress has been much faster on PCs than at Tivo, so...

Now, I'm thinking about setting up a four or five tuner system on my Mac O/S PC and distributing the content via Ethernet. I already have four SD TV capture/tuner boxes with MPEG and DivX encoding in hardware, plus another TV tuner for HD OTA. Only one of my current PC's is fast enough to render HD, but I'll buy one more in a few months along with a second HD tuner so I can record two HD shows at once. I'll use my older PC's for SD TV's in other rooms. The Mac Mini has always been very quiet, even more so than my SD DirecTivo, so it will be fine in a bedroom.


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I would love to be able to play my MP3's off my server... them I could get rid of that 200 disk monster in my setup


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Doesn't make sense to me why Microsoft would be building MRV-type features for live and pre-recorded HD content into their system, yet at the same time D* has been fighting it tooth and nail (it appears). The Tivo-based receivers have the capability, and even the software to do it (basically) native in the existing code, just not enabled. 

If MS truly enables MRV for HD and D* still refuses to network their boxes together in my own home, on the same account, then it'll be time for me to consider another provider of my HD content. If MS enables it for both OTA and cablecard and D* doesn't appear to be working on it, or more likely is continuing to fight it, then I'll start looking sooner than later.

D*, are you listening? Putting an ethernet port on a linux-based media appliance and then not enabling MRV features - while at the same time pursuing a push (or even pull) based VOD system is utterly stupid. It's basically telling me that you have the ability to make it do what I want, but not the guts to fight the battles others are willing to fight.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

DRM DRM DRM is the name of the game.

Bottom line, they have to make sure (Microsoft, DirecTV, anyone)... that what ever method they use... is not easily circumvented to allow people to grab the DIGITAL HD content, for what ever purpose.

Because if that happens... content providers will pull any and all support.
It is not like DirecTV doesn't WANT that type of feature in their systems... there is just a very large target that goes up, once something like that is enabled.

What is DirecTV primary purpose... Provided TV content to it's customers... is pretty much their entire business.
If the content providers start to pull out, and fight, ect... .there goes DirecTV's primary business... So the risk is astronomical

But over in Microsoft, it is only one relatively Tiny aspect of their business... so the risk is no where at the same level as DirecTV's would be.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl,

Is it possible that with the DTivos, Tivo wanted to charge D* more to use the advanced features as well as the DRM issues?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tibber said:


> Earl,
> 
> Is it possible that with the DTivos, Tivo wanted to charge D* more to use the advanced features as well as the DRM issues?
> 
> ...


That is one of the theories that where throw around, as a reason for the "split". Also, part of the issues... the content on DirecTivos was digital recordings, they where not analog at any point.

So communication between two DirecTivos consisted of Digital Recordings, vs what you have on SA Tivos... which where Analog recordings.

Hence another reason why, you don't see MRV yet on the Series 3's.

The content providers are extremely protective of DIGITAL versions of their programs.


----------



## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is one of the theories that where throw around, as a reason for the "split". Also, part of the issues... the content on DirecTivos was digital recordings, they where not analog at any point.
> 
> So communication between two DirecTivos consisted of Digital Recordings, vs what you have on SA Tivos... which where Analog recordings.
> 
> ...


Back to the Windows Vista, ViiV points. ViiV is a reference architecture for a secure hardware platform, but Windows Vista provides these additional capabilities at a software level (advanced DRM, encrypting file systems, etc.). Here is my guess on how it will all shake out:

1. ViiV will be the platform of choice for streaming of D* content from D* boxes to PCs. This will suck for those of us without ViiV hardware, but my guess is we will not be out of luck.
2. D* will release their tuner card and it will only work under Windows Vista. If you delve into the technical details enough, this will be fairly easy for them to do as the Vista architecture has features that there is no way to squeeze into another system and that would allow D* to provide the necessary security to allow for all digital capture and streaming.

This would be a win-win for D*.

By only supporting ViiV for streaming content from D* boxes they stand the best chance of protecting the data. In lieu of them controlling the software, they control the hardware.

By supporting Windows Vista without the ViiV constraint they can force users to use the built-in DRM and other security features of the OS to protect the content and put the onus on Microsoft to protect streaming to alternate targets (not to mention living up to the promise of offering a tuner card that would support Media Center).


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

One thing is for sure- they will spend months and $$$ to make it 'secure' and 2 weeks after they release it some 13 year old kid will figuire out how th break all the security... :lol:


----------



## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

houskamp said:


> One thing is for sure- they will spend months and $$$ to make it 'secure' and 2 weeks after they release it some 13 year old kid will figuire out how th break all the security... :lol:


Welcome to the digital world....

There's always a way to crack this stuff. I think that both D* and MS have been doing a serious tap dance around the content publishers on this stuff though. It's just silly. They've had capture cards for satellite in Europe for a couple of years now with no backlash. I guess we just like our lawyers more here... :grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I heard that the 13 year old kid already has OTA working and broke the security...


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> DRM DRM DRM is the name of the game.
> 
> Bottom line, they have to make sure (Microsoft, DirecTV, anyone)... that what ever method they use... is not easily circumvented to allow people to grab the DIGITAL HD content, for what ever purpose.
> 
> ...


I understand that the risk is allowing / seeming to allow digital content without sufficient content protection mechanisms. However, I don't agree with your assessment of the risk.

I believe that regardless of the percentage of MediaCenter vs TheRestOfMicrosoft, the actual in-court damage potential is still on a per-event basis. If MediaCenter takes off, the risk goes up proportionately on a risk-per-user basis (if that makes any sense).

The fact that MS only made $150MM profit off of MC-based products (after costs, etc) isn't going to protect them should a judge decide they didn't do enough on the DRM front.

I guess my point is that people are going to inevitably try to 'invent' the technology to do MRV, whether it is through legitimate, semi-legitimate or borderline-illegal means. The content delivery people (D*/E*/MS/etc) and the content producers need to realize that if they don't provide a sanctioned mechanism for me to watch a program recorded on DVR 1 upstairs on my HDTV attached to DVR 2, then I may start investigating some mechanism to get that content there myself. Others will do the same, and the amount of effort they are willing to put into 'extending' the capabilities of the HR20 will be inversely proportional to the features included in the box. In other words, if MRV is there already, more of the hacking community will be more inclined to just work with the base MRV, since it will do what most of them want - abstracting the 'place recorded' from the 'place played back'.

You will always have the core of the hacking community who will do what they can to find out how far the capability set can be extended. The more D* fights a legitimate, sanctioned MRV capability, the more attention and support (including financially) the hacking community will receive. The more attention and support they get, the more widespread the hacks will be, and the worse it will be for D*.

I really hope they get the message on this. MRV has been proven. Others have shown it can be done, and the technical community knows that the HR20 has the hardware capability to do it. Now either D* is going to provide it, or someone else is going to write it. The scope of the impact is all that is left to decide, at this point.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

sbcale said:


> I am just looking for a way to extend my HD viewing to all of my TVs.


Rest assured that the medium for transmitting your HD content will _not_ be via ATSC RF. There is a chance that it will be encrypted data over wired Ethernet.


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...Hence another reason why, you don't see MRV yet on the Series 3's.
> 
> The content providers are extremely protective of DIGITAL versions of their programs.


OK, but... isn't HD content being broadcast OTA in digital format which we can capture to our PCs and redistribute to our heart's content? Are the content providers really helping themselves by making it harder for DirecTV to provide a controlled way to view a show on the TV in the next room?

The cost of PCs keep falling, wireless networking is getting faster and cheaper, the TV scheduling software is getting better, so it's only a matter of time before it becomes easier for us to get the networking features we want and leave Hollywood with even less control over how we redistribute it. Maybe these copyright holders see this coming and plan to relent on the pressure once it becomes too easy to do this on our computers. I can only hope...

By the way, what does MRV stand for? Thanks.


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Neil said:


> Are the content providers really helping themselves by making it harder for DirecTV to provide a controlled way to view a show on the TV in the next room?


Of course they're not, but they're too scared out of their minds to realize how completely stupid they're being. Every popular TV show is already widely pirated online, including HD programming, so I don't see how HD MRV is going to somehow open the floodgates of piracy. They're already wide open.


Neil said:


> By the way, what does MRV stand for?


Multi-Room Viewing.


----------



## Barmat (Aug 27, 2006)

DRM is just a way for the providers to charge for something we should be able to do for free. Untill people realize that, providers are going keep already existing technology crippled.

DRM is the worst thing in the entertainment industry today. Look what happened with Sony's rootkit fiasco. Look at all the probs with HDMI connections. It's all caused by DRM.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Barmat said:


> DRM is just a way for the providers to charge for something we should be able to do for free. Untill people realize that, providers are going keep already existing technology crippled.
> 
> DRM is the worst thing in the entertainment industry today. Look what happened with Sony's rootkit fiasco. Look at all the probs with HDMI connections. It's all caused by DRM.


I don't think it is People that need to realize it.... it is the content providers that need to catch up with the times, and change their business models.

What worked pre-digital era... is not going to necessarily work in the digital era. If they would just embrase the technology, change their expectations and models... Most of this "crap" because a non-issue.


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

Cool I will be looking forward to that 



PoitNarf said:


> If it's an MSI installer, I could whip up an altered installer in a few minutes :lol:


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

I just remembered broadcast flags. Congress passed a law requiring broadcast flags on DTV content starting in July of 2005. Then, there would be a ban on all hardware that would capture that content without the restrictions that Hollywood wants. As I recall, that law was struck down by the courts before it went into effect. Maybe somebody here can update us on this issue. Here are the only links I have on this:
[links to eff dot org have been deleted due to restrictions of this web site.]

So, it looks like the content creators have a plan. Their lawyers are keeping the screws turned tight on the cable and DBS providers while they have a swarm of lobbyists working with Congress to regulate OTA content. Once all the engineers, programmers, lawyers, and lobbyists finally lock-down all the digital content for the copyright holders, we'll have to wait a few months for some 13 year old to crack it for us and we'll be back to our PC based MRV solution. 

The irony is that I'm an extremely strong supporter of property rights. I don't buy into the Marxist notion that property rights are just a tool for the wealthy capitalists to exploit the masses. To the contrary, I believe that well defined and enforced property rights are the cornerstone of a free, fair, peaceful, and prosperous society. I would be on the side of the content creators except that once the content is distributed, then the viewer has certain property rights to the content too. Those rights include viewing the content on a TV in another room. That is fair use. If Hollywood manages to lock up their content, I wouldn't feel any moral obligation to honor it. I would be willing to circumvent the protections through software cracks or illegal downloads of content from the internet if available. The amount of resources that they are devoting to this battle indicates that they think they can win it. Well, they have been wrong before. I hope they are wrong again.


----------



## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

Doing a quick search on Viiv, I found a thread on another forum regarding Viiv Online Spotlight. The thread talks about some part of the Tivo software requiring Viiv and with a little work being able to install it (and have it all work) and use it successfully on a non-Viiv PC. So I suspect any type of Viiv limitation will be easy to get around.


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't think it is People that need to realize it.... it is the content providers that need to catch up with the times, and change their business models.
> 
> What worked pre-digital era... is not going to necessarily work in the digital era. If they would just embrase the technology, change their expectations and models... Most of this "crap" because a non-issue.


I know that and you know that, but what will it really take to make *them* understand that? We as consumers can only do so much.

1) Purchasing decisions
2) Feedback

That's pretty much it. The downside is that in each case, the content providers as a whole are taking our input negatively. If I choose not to buy the latest CD or movie because I don't like the stance the publisher/studio is taking on DRM and fair use, then they turn around and take the negative sales numbers and here comes...

"Piracy costs music and movie industry a gazillion dollars" press release.

Is there piracy? Yep. Will there always be piracy? Yep. The way I see it, the level of piracy of your product is proportional to the unhappiness of your target consumer with your product. I want my music in a digital format that is easily portable. I don't want to buy the same music multiple times because of hardware or format differences solely influenced by the manufacturers (see iPod/iTunes/Zune).

Our feedback is obviously being trashed, since DRM is not only getting more prevalent, it's becoming more draconian. MPAA wants me to register my living room as a "Theater" with them, including a $50 (?) fee and per-showing requirements. You would think they would have learned from the complete failure of DIVX (the limited-view DVD format Circuit City sold a few years ago) that people still embrace the "I buy it I own it I can watch it whenever I want to" mentality, and that the whole idea of paying each time you want to watch something is going to be a hard sell. But no, the **AA keeps trying to as you say, use old business techniques on a new digital environment, but keeps blaming the consumer for finding and showing the producer's downfalls.

So if my only two means of getting a message back to the content people is falling on deaf ears, what am I left with? Doing it myself. In so doing, the risk to the content itself goes up by leaps and bounds. The fact that you see pre-hacked Tivos on Ebay should tell you that the desire for these capabilities is moving into the mainstream, and that if the big houses won't do it, the people will.

The whole industry needs to pull it's head out of the sand and it's hands out of the lawyer's pockets.


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

Earl, do you get the feeling from management that they think the MRV feature wont be available even a year from now? Doesn't it seem likely that the broadcast flag law wont get passed, or one will pass that allows MRV? Is DirecTV going to have to cripple their hardware and leave themselves unable to compete with a PC based solution? 

I just remembered that the Playstation 3 will play HD content from my PC. If I combine that with a few cheap SD network media players, I'll have an MRV solution with HD in two rooms and SD in a few others. As HD players and TV's come down in price, I'll add more of those along with another HD tuner for my PC.


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

Sorry, I need one more post before I'm allowed to paste a link.


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

Now that I have a few posts, I'll see if I can post the links on the broadcast flag.

http://www.eff.org/broadcastflag/eyetv500.php
brief update: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004998.php
https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocac...6zr1.app8a&cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=231


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Neil said:


> Earl, do you get the feeling from management that they think the MRV feature wont be available even a year from now? Doesn't it seem likely that the broadcast flag law wont get passed, or one will pass that allows MRV? Is DirecTV going to have to cripple their hardware and leave themselves unable to compete with a PC based solution?
> 
> I just remembered that the Playstation 3 will play HD content from my PC. If I combine that with a few cheap SD network media players, I'll have an MRV solution with HD in two rooms and SD in a few others. As HD players and TV's come down in price, I'll add more of those along with another HD tuner for my PC.


PC based solutions... their set top boxes will never compete... Just not practical for them to build a system that could "compete" with a $1,000 PC.

Hence why they are working on the Tuner card for those Media PC's.

To provide an opportunity for those wanting to go that route, a way to get the DirecTV content.

I am a computer nut, but I am no more closer to installing a Windows Media PC (or any other version), in my main viewing area.... then I was when they where first announced.


----------



## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> There are other things planned for the network connection as well...
> But I can't spill the beans yet...


Hi Earl,

Would this other thing be video-on-demand contents through broadband internet? I know you can't spill the bean, but you can smile or wink, right?


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Dusty said:


> Hi Earl,
> 
> Would this other thing be video-on-demand contents through broadband internet? I know you can't spill the bean, but you can smile or wink, right?


Yes, that would be one of them...
But that was already public known that they where going to do that.


----------



## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> PC based solutions... their set top boxes will never compete... Just not practical for them to build a system that could "compete" with a $1,000 PC.
> 
> Hence why they are working on the Tuner card for those Media PC's.
> 
> ...


They day I get my hands on a D* tuner for my PC, I'm ready to go (once I've tested it for a week or two on my setup). I've spent a lot of time coming up with a true living room ready HTPC, and am very happy with all but this one piece.


----------



## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, that would be one of them...
> But that was already public known that they where going to do that.


I will be curious to try this out. I already have a network drop sitting there, and it would be a reason to use it...


----------



## DaHound (Nov 20, 2006)

Barmat said:


> Don't have link but read that the interface was going to be w/ Vista and intel chip set only. Infact the computer would have to pass some stupid Intel certification so no homebuilt PC's could work.


That doesn't matter. As soon as it's turned on, it can be hacked to death!


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> PC based solutions... their set top boxes will never compete... Just not practical for them to build a system that could "compete" with a $1,000 PC.
> 
> Hence why they are working on the Tuner card for those Media PC's.
> 
> ...


But doesn't it say something when people are willing to spend $1000 per room on a system, just to be able to get MRV?

An HD tuner or two in a linux box running Myth, another couple of less expensive linux boxes for frontends and I can have my MRV HD today - albeit from a cable source or OTA instead of D*.

I guess it just amazes me that D* fights so hard to prevent users from doing what they want to do (and what they have a legal right to do under the fair use provisions), and will instead fight the losing battle against hackers to keep them from making the hardware do it.

If it were illegal (like stealing service), I would see it differently. But fer Pete's sake, I just want to watch my shows in HD anywhere in my house instead of at some particular location. I want to be able to manage my recording prefences in one place instead of box-by-box. I want to not have to record the same show in multiple places just because I want to watch it in multiple places.

The boxes can do it. The boxes *will* do it. The only question is, will D* do it, or will someone else.


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

OK now I'm really confused. From D*s own slides from their Investor Meeting Feb 2006...

A slide titled "Whole-Home DVR Functionality" with a caption on the right "HDTV Media Center"... showing what is obviously an HR20 on bottom and two smaller receivers on top.

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/12/127160/pres/SlidesInvestorDay22206.pdf

Page 30....


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Meklos said:


> But doesn't it say something when people are willing to spend $1000 per room on a system, just to be able to get MRV?


But people where also willing to spend $10,000 on HDTV's just a few short years ago, when there was very little content out there.

But you are right... it does say something, hence why they are working with the Media PC people (more specifically Microsoft and Intel) to develop a card for the main stream Media PC.


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Earl, any thoughts on the slide I quoted / linked above?


----------



## sbcale (Aug 19, 2006)

Meklos said:


> Earl, any thoughts on the slide I quoted / linked above?


Yes, I am curious. Ever since I read those pages earlier this year I have been really anxious for more information. Thanks Earl!


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Meklos said:


> Earl, any thoughts on the slide I quoted / linked above?





sbcale said:


> Yes, I am curious. Ever since I read those pages earlier this year I have been really anxious for more information. Thanks Earl!


They are referring to the Home Media Center there.

The picture is not of the "production" HR20.. .(Note the grid pattern on the top of the HR20, is not in the shape of the DirecTV logo)

So my guess, is that they didn't have a proto-type of the Media Center "Server" box, available a year ago, for the photo shoot for this presentation. Those are certainly the slave boxes, as they are smaller then any of the other receivers on the market.

As far as I know... Home Media Center is a product they are going to release... but... not any time soon. I do know, they are considering a lot of options... including allowing the HR20 to act as a "remote" box to the HMC... but we are ways off until the HMC sees the commercial market place.

We will probably learn more at CES 2007, and in the February 2007 investor's meetings.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I do know, they are considering a lot of options... including allowing the HR20 to act as a "remote" box to the HMC...


seems like this would be common sense ... hardware already out there, and all. Thanks for the info Earl.


----------



## leesweet (Jul 15, 2003)

Earl, have you ever heard why the whole HMC project is/was so delayed? We (HR10 folks looking for MRV and a general 'good' replacement system that would do MPEG4, etc.) were told back when the HMC would be out *last* Christmas or so, and that has slipped step by step to being now sometime in the future (late 2007? 2008?).

How can Humax or D* or whomever be that wrong on their projections or is something else pushing the schedule so far out?


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't understand this talk about getting MRV from the DirecTV tuner card. Will it allow the user to share content across his LAN? If so, then he only needs to add cards to his existing PC's and put thin clients to the other rooms. That sounds like about $300 per room, not $1,000. If the content can't be shared, then it isn't really MRV, it's just like the current HR20, right? Or, will the card only share content with PC's that also have the card installed? If that's the case, I would just go with an OTA/cable solution and forget DirecTV. 

I think that there must be a lot of people like me for whom MRV is more important than staying with DirecTV, especially now that OTA pq as at least as good as DBS. It's funny that DirecTV has been giving better deals to people who subscribe to ST and SF, since those people really need DirecTV anyway. The rest of us can get almost all of our video rich HD content OTA, whether it's network dramas like CSI, or local sports. Cable is ok for the other 10% of the time that we watch HD.


----------



## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

So bypassing the required VIIV hardware limitation will be easy enough it seems but will we be able to talk about it here?


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Mixer said:


> So bypassing the required VIIV hardware limitation will be easy enough it seems but will we be able to talk about it here?


I imagine so. There's nothing illegal about doing that.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

leesweet said:


> Earl, have you ever heard why the whole HMC project is/was so delayed? We (HR10 folks looking for MRV and a general 'good' replacement system that would do MPEG4, etc.) were told back when the HMC would be out *last* Christmas or so, and that has slipped step by step to being now sometime in the future (late 2007? 2008?).
> 
> How can Humax or D* or whomever be that wrong on their projections or is something else pushing the schedule so far out?


Obviously part of the original delays from when we first heard it, was Ucentric being sold to Motorola. Then shortly after, DirecTV/TiVo "split", couldn't have helped much.

I think the HMC has evolved into something else then was "originally" thought of... and simply a refocusing of what they want to get done when.


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> I imagine so. There's nothing illegal about doing that.


Doesn't circumventing DRM violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act? But, you're saying that simply getting past Viiv will be enough to get the DirecTV tuner card to support MRV?

Earl, are there any plans for a Mac O/S compatible tuner card, or even any of the network functions?


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Neil said:


> Doesn't circumventing DRM violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act? But, you're saying that simply getting past Viiv will be enough to get the DirecTV tuner card to support MRV?


Nooooo no no, I'm not talking about the tuner card at all. That's a totally different beast. All I'm talking about is the software that will allow the HR20 to access music and photos from a computer on the network.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Neil said:


> Doesn't circumventing DRM violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act? But, you're saying that simply getting past Viiv will be enough to get the DirecTV tuner card to support MRV?
> 
> Earl, are there any plans for a Mac O/S compatible tuner card, or even any of the network functions?


I have only heard of a tuner card for the Microsoft Vista systems... 
There is more to Networking features, then just connecting to a PC...

But as far as I know, I haven't heard discussions of connectivity to a MAC machine.


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Neil said:


> Doesn't circumventing DRM violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act? But, you're saying that simply getting past Viiv will be enough to get the DirecTV tuner card to support MRV?
> 
> Earl, are there any plans for a Mac O/S compatible tuner card, or even any of the network functions?


There is a good legal argument that says that Fair Use trumps the DMCA, but no one so far has really challenged that in court enough to get a clear ruling one way or the other.

DRM allows the content providers (instead of the legal system) to define the extent of our Fair Use rights, which seems backwards to me.


----------



## Neil (Nov 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have only heard of a tuner card for the Microsoft Vista systems...
> There is more to Networking features, then just connecting to a PC...


True, but of course it's the MRV that we really want. 



> But as far as I know, I haven't heard discussions of connectivity to a MAC machine.


Nor Linux then I suppose. But, if the HR20 supports universal PnP, then it will be fine, just like any other network media player.


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Neil said:


> if the HR20 supports universal PnP


The HR20 currently sends out UPnP advertisements. Now, whether or not it'll actually support UPnP for music and pictures is up for debate.


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Earl, any chance MRV is coming in the new firmware? :grin:

Maybe VOD?


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Meklos said:


> Earl, any chance MRV is coming in the new firmware? :grin:
> 
> Maybe VOD?


No and No...


----------



## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Oh well, guess stability wins out over new features. Just keep telling your contacts at D* that we want MRV, at least between HR20s in the same house. If they add in other receivers that'll be nice too... And the previously-announced Windows stuff.

:wave:


----------



## sbcale (Aug 19, 2006)

Hopefully we will learn more at CES in January, maybe some expected features for home networking/Vista tuner card info, and possibly a time frame. I will keep my fingers crossed. :grin:


----------



## bgullicksen (Oct 1, 2006)

From what I have read...see below, it looks like viiv is not just a chip or a cpu, but a certification standard. For a PC to be viiv, it must meet certain specifications such as dual-core processor, intel network chips, high-performance video, etc. Please see below for some other details.

Like Centrino, PC makers receive marketing support from Intel if they build Viiv PCs with certain specifications, such as an Intel dual-core processor, Microsoft's Windows XP Media Center Edition, Intel's networking chips, support for high-definition audio and other components.

The idea is to create a brand that guarantees a level of PC performance needed to run sophisticated digital entertainment software, Skoog said. Intel is also working with content providers to develop applications that work well on large screens and with remote controls. Many early versions of software meant for digital entertainment are designed to receive information through a keyboard or mouse, and not a remote control as envisioned for the digital home PC.

Like it did with the Centrino brand, Intel also plans to certify that other devices like networking gear, portable players and televisions will work with Viiv PCs and content, helping take the pain out of setting up a home entertainment system that uses a PC at its center.



Mixer said:


> Jeremy...then I would have to ask what percentage of the Intel userbase actually has one of these VIIV compatible chips. I would have to think it is not 50% even.
> 
> I work with PCs but not so much on the hardware side. Is upgrading to one of these chips and the MSMediaCenter OS all I would need to do in order to be "in"


----------



## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

The interesting thing will be how ViiV plays into the tuner card mix. I don't see it coming to play because of two things that MS introduced in Vista:

Protected Video Path - Output Protection Management (PVP-OPM)
Protected Video Path - User-Accessible Bus (PVP-UAB)

PVP-OPM protects a video stream running over a network. It mandates that the receiving end implement some sort of DRM technology (usually HDCP) and would protect the content as it streams over your network. 

The PVP-UAB is actually an internal protection of content running over a PCI-Express bus. This, theoretically, would make it very difficult to even hack the data within the OS as it is encrypted as it flows into or out of any cards residing on the bus. 

None of this is dependent on ViiV and are core changes that were incorporated into Vista and exist on any platform (including my AMD HTPC running Vista).


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bgullicksen said:


> From what I have read...see below, it looks like viiv is not just a chip or a cpu, but a certification standard. For a PC to be viiv, it must meet certain specifications such as dual-core processor, intel network chips, high-performance video, etc. Please see below for some other details.


Actually, the spec is kind of interesting in that where Intel doesn't offer such a setup (notebooks), they relax the standard substantially.

Like a similar AMD initiative, Viiv is a hardware and software standard; not just hardware. It requires approved hardware as well as approved drivers and CODECs. The CODEC issue (that there are dozens of seemingly incompatible CODECs) alone is one of the biggest flaws in all of Windows multimedia.


----------

