# Need to replace Denon what do I get?



## SteveHas

I need a 7.1 receiver to replace my lovely Denon which is having issues, and is not HDMI compatible

I am looking for at a Sony STR-DN2010 and a Pioneer VSX-1120

I am leaning towards the Sony as I need to have HDMI pass through.
I will not, and can not turn my receiver on every time I want to watch TV, or play the PS3, thus the hdmi pass through.
However I can not find ANY reviews of this particular Sony.
I've had other Sony units and found them to be a great value for the money spent as far as features and performance go

I can get either unit at my price point which is in the high $400.00
I also want
Network ability for home media
latest surround sound decoders

Any suggestions, or input?


----------



## lugnutathome

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/rx-v667/?mode=model

Another contender here I'm a Yamaha bigot myself. Sony makes good consumer grade equipment as does Yamaha though Yamaha to my ear has always had a warmer rounder sound than Sony but I stopped comparing them years ago and buy at the top of the range so my opinions are not based in everyone's reality.

The Pioneer looks awful attractive to me with the 6 HDMI inputs but for me the THX Select2 soundfields would be the deal maker but again that is just me. Ultimately any of them will rumble a sub and shriek out lots of sound through your speakers.

THX Select2 engages the 2 rear surrounds on any 5.1/2.1 processed soundfield. The same can be accomplished by selecting a PL2X extension or DD-EX/DTS-ES matrix extension to 5.1 sound materials. But at least on my RX-V3800 they remain in "matrix" mode even on 7.1 input source until I deselect the extension.

THX does it transparently so I don't have to switch things on and off. Plus it adds some theater like dynamics to the sound without adding rasp or phony reverberations. My RX-Z11 and the RX-V2600 both have the Select2 (the Z box also has Ultra for LARGER rooms (which I need in that area)). Ultimately I prefer the sound manipulations the THX processing adds but this is my tastes.

YMMV

Don "pick one pull the trigger and enjoy" Bolton


----------



## SteveHas

lugnutathome said:


> http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/rx-v667/?mode=model
> 
> Another contender here I'm a Yamaha bigot myself. Sony makes good consumer grade equipment as does Yamaha though Yamaha to my ear has always had a warmer rounder sound than Sony but I stopped comparing them years ago and buy at the top of the range so my opinions are not based in everyone's reality.
> 
> The Pioneer looks awful attractive to me with the 6 HDMI inputs but for me the THX Select2 soundfields would be the deal maker but again that is just me. Ultimately any of them will rumble a sub and shriek out lots of sound through your speakers.
> 
> THX Select2 engages the 2 rear surrounds on any 5.1/2.1 processed soundfield. The same can be accomplished by selecting a PL2X extension or DD-EX/DTS-ES matrix extension to 5.1 sound materials. But at least on my RX-V3800 they remain in "matrix" mode even on 7.1 input source until I deselect the extension.
> 
> THX does it transparently so I don't have to switch things on and off. Plus it adds some theater like dynamics to the sound without adding rasp or phony reverberations. My RX-Z11 and the RX-V2600 both have the Select2 (the Z box also has Ultra for LARGER rooms (which I need in that area)). Ultimately I prefer the sound manipulations the THX processing adds but this is my tastes.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> Don "pick one pull the trigger and enjoy" Bolton


I've read all this else where here

this unit does not match my criteria
not a networked unit
and I am not a Yamaha fan


----------



## MysteryMan

SteveHas said:


> I need a 7.1 receiver to replace my lovely Denon which is having issues, and is not HDMI compatible
> 
> I am looking for at a Sony STR-DN2010 and a Pioneer VSX-1120
> 
> I am leaning towards the Sony as I need to have HDMI pass through.
> I will not, and can not turn my receiver on every time I want to watch TV, or play the PS3, thus the hdmi pass through.
> However I can not find ANY reviews of this particular Sony.
> I've had other Sony units and found them to be a great value for the money spent as far as features and performance go
> 
> I can get either unit at my price point which is in the high $400.00
> I also want
> Network ability for home media
> latest surround sound decoders
> 
> Any suggestions, or input?


Go to the Crutchfield website. You'll find everything you'll need to know about the Sony STR-DN2010 including photos. If your budget allows it step up to Sony's ES receivers.


----------



## spartanstew

I've had two Sony Receivers and am currently on my third Pioneer receiver (1020). I'd take Pioneer over Sony any time, especially the 1120 that's a great receiver.

The 1120 does have HDMI passthrough, BTW.

The 1120 was $425 at Amazon last month and is currently $430 at newegg, but they're out of stock and probably won't get any in before that deal goes away.

I'm sure another deal will pop up though.


----------



## SteveHas

spartanstew said:


> I've had two Sony Receivers and am currently on my third Pioneer receiver (1020). I'd take Pioneer over Sony any time, especially the 1120 that's a great receiver.
> 
> The 1120 does have HDMI passthrough, BTW.
> 
> The 1120 was $425 at Amazon last month and is currently $430 at newegg, but they're out of stock and probably won't get any in before that deal goes away.
> 
> I'm sure another deal will pop up though.


the 1120 DOES have passthrough?!
I couldn't find that feature listed any where on any web site are you sure?
If it does that the unit for me


----------



## SteveHas

MysteryMan said:


> Go to the Crutchfield website. You'll find everything you'll need to know about the Sony STR-DN2010 including photos. If your budget allows it step up to Sony's ES receivers.


thanks mm
I had checked Crutchfield previously, but there were no reviews
I have all the tech specs I need on the Sony
I just need someone who has it

I have only found one review from 1 buyer at Amazon
and one other that reads suspiciously like a Sony employee who conunters the 1st reviewer


----------



## MysteryMan

SteveHas said:


> thanks mm
> I had checked Crutchfield previously, but there were no reviews
> I have all the tech specs I need on the Sony
> I just need someone who has it
> 
> I have only found one review from 1 buyer at Amazon
> and one other that reads suspiciously like a Sony employee who conunters the 1st reviewer


There is one review by a owner of the Sony STR-DN2010 Receiver on the Receiver Review website.


----------



## SteveHas

MysteryMan said:


> There is one review by a owner of the Sony STR-DN2010 Receiver on the Receiver Review website.


cool, but what web site?
there are no reviews for this unit on Crutchfield


----------



## MysteryMan

SteveHas said:


> cool, but what web site?
> there are no reviews for this unit on Crutchfield


receiver-reviews.send.us/sony.....when the menu comes up you will see it. Just click on.


----------



## mystic7

Onkyo


----------



## SteveHas

MysteryMan said:


> receiver-reviews.send.us/sony.....when the menu comes up you will see it. Just click on.


thats the same review as appears on Amazon
it also shows up on Sony's web site as well


----------



## SteveHas

mystic7 said:


> Onkyo


what Onkyo?
which model
is it networked
HDMI pass through?
7.1


----------



## MysteryMan

SteveHas said:


> thats the same review as appears on Amazon
> it also shows up on Sony's web site as well


Didn't know that.


----------



## SteveHas

spartanstew said:


> I've had two Sony Receivers and am currently on my third Pioneer receiver (1020). I'd take Pioneer over Sony any time, especially the 1120 that's a great receiver.
> 
> The 1120 does have HDMI passthrough, BTW.
> 
> The 1120 was $425 at Amazon last month and is currently $430 at newegg, but they're out of stock and probably won't get any in before that deal goes away.
> 
> I'm sure another deal will pop up though.


it has 3d pass through which is not the same as HDMI pass through


----------



## SteveHas

MysteryMan said:


> Didn't know that.


I think I'm going to have to pull the trigger on the Sony as it the only unit I've found that;
it has all the features I want
and
meets my price target
I would prefer the Pioneer only based on available reviews, but it doesn't have the much needed HDMI pass through

I will wait for further, (and much valued) input from this forum however


----------



## spartanstew

SteveHas said:


> it has 3d pass through which is not the same as HDMI pass through


Are you sure? I went to the 1120 thread on avs and searched for "passthrough" and there were several posts that come up with people stating that it had it.


----------



## CCarncross

I actually don't know of any decent receivers that have the HDMI pass through feature you are looking for...actually passing the HDMI signal when unit is off, is not something very many support...you might want to rethink that.


----------



## sigma1914

The Yamaha in my sig does pass through when set to stand by when powered off. It's not networked, though, or does HDMI 1.4 (3D).


----------



## David Ortiz

SteveHas said:


> I think I'm going to have to pull the trigger on the Sony as it the only unit I've found that;
> it has all the features I want
> and
> meets my price target
> I would prefer the Pioneer only based on available reviews, but it doesn't have the much needed HDMI pass through
> 
> I will wait for further, (and much valued) input from this forum however


The newer Denons, if you turn on HDMI CEC, have a setting to specify which HDMI input is the Standby Source. It is supposed to pass the specified input to the TV when the receiver is in standby.

I'd hate to have to get rid of my Denon; I don't know if you feel the same way, but it seems that you may not have to (switch brands anyway)

Look here for more info.

Q. HDMI Control? I can watch TV when the Denon is off? Wow, really??


----------



## hdtvfan0001

While I'm an Onkyo fan and their equipment here has been very solid and exceeded my expectations...

I also recognize that Denon has fine equipment. In the past, they actually were my next choice in line...and I don't recall much on why they came in 2nd in my selection...other than the Denon's at that time were a bit more pricey. 

Things may have changed now....but Denon seems to maintain a good reputation for their equipment.


----------



## Nighthawk68

If you liked your Denon, look at those again. Well built, especially the 891/991 and the 2311/3311 and up. They have the HDMI pass thru, 991 & 3311 are networked. Sony in my opinion is kinda cheap, thin plastic front, (Sony ES is solid stuff), also lower power than Denon's & Onkyo's.
Look at the .pdf's at the respective websites.
I went to a Denon from a Sony, and it was an amazing improvement.


----------



## David Ortiz

Nitehawk^ said:


> I went to a Denon from a Sony, and it was an amazing improvement.


I went from a Sony ES model to the Denon 4802 and I thought the same thing. I am using a Denon AVR-3808CI right now.


----------



## Nighthawk68

David Ortiz said:


> I went from a Sony ES model to the Denon 4802 and I thought the same thing. I am using a Denon AVR-3808CI right now.


My Sony was a standard line, STR??-845, and I went to a Denon AVR-989 (aka 2809). It was like hearing my CD's for the first time again, and my movies were like all new and improved soundtracks!


----------



## SteveHas

David Ortiz said:


> The newer Denons, if you turn on HDMI CEC, have a setting to specify which HDMI input is the Standby Source. It is supposed to pass the specified input to the TV when the receiver is in standby.
> 
> I'd hate to have to get rid of my Denon; I don't know if you feel the same way, but it seems that you may not have to (switch brands anyway)
> 
> Look here for more info.
> 
> Q. HDMI Control? I can watch TV when the Denon is off? Wow, really??


Love my Denon, but it has no HDMI
and I am getting sporadic noise coming through the speakers that requires me to restart the unit (it was a B stock 3-4 years ago)


----------



## SteveHas

Nitehawk^ said:


> If you liked your Denon, look at those again. Well built, especially the 891/991 and the 2311/3311 and up. They have the HDMI pass thru, 991 & 3311 are networked. Sony in my opinion is kinda cheap, thin plastic front, (Sony ES is solid stuff), also lower power than Denon's & Onkyo's.
> Look at the .pdf's at the respective websites.
> I went to a Denon from a Sony, and it was an amazing improvement.


Too $ for passthrough
I need pass through
I can't have my kids firing up my AV gear just to watch Hanna Montanna


----------



## SteveHas

CCarncross said:


> I actually don't know of any decent receivers that have the HDMI pass through feature you are looking for...actually passing the HDMI signal when unit is off, is not something very many support...you might want to rethink that.


Denon
Onkyo
Sony
Yamaha
Pioneer all support HDMI pass through in some units
it is a relatively new feature to AV receivers


----------



## SteveHas

spartanstew said:


> Are you sure? I went to the 1120 thread on avs and searched for "passthrough" and there were several posts that come up with people stating that it had it.


Pioneer web site, and owners manual make no mention of HDMI pass through

I have read some reviews that use the lack of HDMI pass through as a "Con"


----------



## SteveHas

spartanstew said:


> Are you sure? I went to the 1120 thread on avs and searched for "passthrough" and there were several posts that come up with people stating that it had it.


Good idea,
I did teh same thing

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19606075#post19606075


----------



## sigma1914

Out of curiosity, why a network receiver?


----------



## SteveHas

sigma1914 said:


> Out of curiosity, why a network receiver?



- updates
- play my dlna media through the unit
I know I can do this with some quality through my HRs, and the PS3, but I like the idea of one (albeit redundant) access, and control point in my rack
internet radio

Also
I don't buy a new AVR very often, so I always try to get as many new features as I can afford when I do


----------



## sigma1914

SteveHas said:


> - updates
> - play my dlna media through the unit
> I know I can do this with some quality through my HRs, and the PS3, but I like the idea of one (albeit redundant) access, and control point in my rack
> internet radio
> 
> Also
> I don't buy a new AVR very often, so I always try to get as many new features as I can afford when I do


Ahh ok, I wasn't aware they did streaming now.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect we're about to the point where most electronics in a home are network enabled...or will be soon.

Heck...we're seeing refrigerators and other kitchen devices that come network and Internet-enabled.

Getting an AVR that is network enabled is probably a smart choice.


----------



## SteveHas

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect we're about to the point where most electronics in a home are network enabled...or will be soon.
> 
> Heck...we're seeing refrigerators and other kitchen devices that come network and Internet-enabled.
> 
> Getting an AVR that is network enabled is probably a smart choice.


+1


----------



## Herdfan

SteveHas said:


> I can't have my kids firing up my AV gear just to watch Hanna Montanna


Any reason why not? My daughter has been able to use a Harmony/MX9x0 to turn everything on since she was 4. No harm was ever done to my gear. In fact there was a funny episode when a new babysitter came over and my daughter wanted to watch a movie. She was about 5 and a half, so the babysitter asked me how to turn everything on to watch the movie. She had a stunned look on her face when I told her my daughter knew how to do it.


----------



## spartanstew

SteveHas said:


> Good idea,
> I did teh same thing
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19606075#post19606075


Keep in mind that that particular owner had a problem with the passthrough, much like members here post about problems with their DVR's, but it's not indicative of the DVR's in general.

I was just pointing out that the 1120 does do HDMI passthrough as evidenced by many other posts in that thread. It not working for one member, doesn't mean it doesn't have the feature. In fact, it means the opposite.

There's also all these:



palehorse said:


> It DOES have hdmi passthrough, so you can take that one off your list...





winston9332 said:


> Did you read the manual? page 53 of 108:
> 
> 8 Select the 'Standby Through' setting you want.
> It is possible to transfer signals from an HDMI-connected
> player to the TV when this receiver's power is on standby
> as long as Control is ON, but the amount of energy
> consumed rises. It is, however, possible to minimize
> energy consumption when power is set to standby.
> • Normal - Regular setting. Power-up time from
> standby is short.
> • Eco - Conserves energy while standby. Power-up
> time is longer than when set to Normal.





palehorse said:


> Yes, the 1120 has HDMI passthrough in standby mode.


So, get what you'd like, but the 1120 does have HDMI passthrough.


----------



## SteveHas

spartanstew said:


> Keep in mind that that particular owner had a problem with the passthrough, much like members here post about problems with their DVR's, but it's not indicative of the DVR's in general.
> 
> I was just pointing out that the 1120 does do HDMI passthrough as evidenced by many other posts in that thread. It not working for one member, doesn't mean it doesn't have the feature. In fact, it means the opposite.
> 
> There's also all these:
> 
> So, get what you'd like, but the 1120 does have HDMI passthrough.


thanks Stew, with your help its settled!
I'm now shopping for the Pioneer VSX-1120, and hope to have one ordered by week end

I sincerely thank you and everyone here for their input and help.
DBSTalk continues to be my "go to" source for tech info.

thanks everyone

:group:


----------



## SteveHas

Herdfan said:


> Any reason why not? My daughter has been able to use a Harmony/MX9x0 to turn everything on since she was 4. No harm was ever done to my gear. In fact there was a funny episode when a new babysitter came over and my daughter wanted to watch a movie. She was about 5 and a half, so the babysitter asked me how to turn everything on to watch the movie. She had a stunned look on her face when I told her my daughter knew how to do it.


sure, my kids can do it too, but as you know
accidents happen, I simply want to simplify TV watching for them, and keep my wife happy by not having the AV system blasting in the house every day

my particular kids would be battling over stations and VOLUME through an expensive, and potentially 7.1 system
the other user in my house (my beautiful wife) wants to just hit a button and go
sure I could program a macro in the remote 
but she simply won't want it so thats what I'm doing


----------



## CCarncross

SteveHas said:


> Denon
> Onkyo
> Sony
> Yamaha
> Pioneer all support HDMI pass through in some units
> it is a relatively new feature to AV receivers


Onkyo, Sony, and Pioneer dont make the list for decent av receivers, unless you are referring to Sony ES, and Pioneer Elite lines. Their standard lines are pure garbage, don't have anything bad to say about Onkyo except I won't buy one, read too many horror stories.


----------



## oldschoolecw

SteveHas said:


> I need a 7.1 receiver to replace my lovely Denon which is having issues, and is not HDMI compatible
> 
> I am looking for at a Sony STR-DN2010 and a Pioneer VSX-1120
> 
> I am leaning towards the Sony as I need to have HDMI pass through.
> I will not, and can not turn my receiver on every time I want to watch TV, or play the PS3, thus the hdmi pass through.
> However I can not find ANY reviews of this particular Sony.
> I've had other Sony units and found them to be a great value for the money spent as far as features and performance go
> 
> I can get either unit at my price point which is in the high $400.00
> I also want
> Network ability for home media
> latest surround sound decoders
> 
> Any suggestions, or input?


I love my Pioneer VSX-1120, and it's still under $500.00 at Amazon


----------



## Hoosier205

I always prefer a Pioneer receiver. I wonderful product.


----------



## Hoosier205

CCarncross said:


> Onkyo, Sony, and Pioneer dont make the list for decent av receivers, unless you are referring to Sony ES, and Pioneer Elite lines. Their standard lines are pure garbage, don't have anything bad to say about Onkyo except I won't buy one, read too many horror stories.


I'm not sure where you are getting this info on the Pioneers. The non-elites are still outstanding.


----------



## SteveHas

CCarncross said:


> Onkyo, Sony, and Pioneer dont make the list for decent av receivers, unless you are referring to Sony ES, and Pioneer Elite lines. Their standard lines are pure garbage, don't have anything bad to say about Onkyo except I won't buy one, read too many horror stories.


Pioneer VSX-1120 and 
Pioneer Elite VSX-32 spec out to be identical
so you're saying if I paid the extra $100.00 because the name tag is different and the lights are different I get a better machine?

not true
I refer you to AVS Forums

You are buying the marketing a bit too much


----------



## SteveHas

oldschoolecw said:


> I love my Pioneer VSX-1120, and it's still under $500.00 at Amazon


its a done deal
498 from amazon


----------



## woj027

Ok so I'm in the market as well for a new reciever.
I was willing to go up to $600.
I've been looking at this Onkyo

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TXN708B/Onkyo-TX-NR708.html?c=4&tp=179 $599.00

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120155&Tpk=NR708 $549.00

is it worth the $50 over the Pioneer VSX-1120?


----------



## CCarncross

Hoosier205 said:


> I'm not sure where you are getting this info on the Pioneers. The non-elites are still outstanding.


We might just have different criteria for what we define as outstanding. To each his own....Elite gear has always been a good step above Pioneer's regular consumer line....


----------



## spartanstew

CCarncross said:


> We might just have different criteria for what we define as outstanding. To each his own....Elite gear has always been a good step above Pioneer's regular consumer line....


Actually that changed about 3 years ago.

The top non-Elites are now virtually identical to the bottom tiered Elites.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Try Marantz.


----------



## harsh

Denon and Yamaha put you dangerously close to four figures to get very limited streaming. You need to be darn sure it is worth the extra versus a standalone $100 box that can be upgraded or replaced. Windows Media arguably sux in comparison to something that can play anything without needing a special media server.


----------



## SteveHas

spartanstew said:


> Actually that changed about 3 years ago.
> 
> The top non-Elites are now virtually identical to the bottom tiered Elites.


my research confirms this


----------



## bobukcat

spartanstew said:


> I've had two Sony Receivers and am currently on my third Pioneer receiver (1020). I'd take Pioneer over Sony any time, especially the 1120 that's a great receiver.


Just to add my 2 cents here but I whole-heartedly agree with this. I bought a Sony ES receiver because it was a great deal on close-out from Crutchfield but quickly became disenchanted with it when calibrating the system. The HDMI circuit crushed the video signal and the audio always seemed to be lacking punch. I replaced it with a Pioneer Elite and haven't regretted that move once, the Pioneer is just much, much better in every aspect I can measure and I know recommend that those in the market look at just about any of the other main brands besides Sony for AVRs.


----------



## lugnutathome

As an AV receiver Onkyo has great value and features. If you also are a music enthusiast it may disappoint however. Onkyo has a low damping factor (ability to control the speaker post signal transmit (like shocks on a car stop it from bouncing after the initial impact)).

Depending on your speakers, music material and ear this might not be what you want. I'd look at the Pioneer but... That is just my opinion.

Don "main thing is you are happy with what you get" Bolton



woj027 said:


> Ok so I'm in the market as well for a new reciever.
> I was willing to go up to $600.
> I've been looking at this Onkyo
> 
> http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TXN708B/Onkyo-TX-NR708.html?c=4&tp=179 $599.00
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120155&Tpk=NR708 $549.00
> 
> is it worth the $50 over the Pioneer VSX-1120?


----------



## lugnutathome

In years past the Elite line utilized better quality internal electronic components and a non Elite with the same specs would have a slightly colder sound.

I'd be surprised if that has changed.

Don "left Pioneer behind back in 99 myself" Bolton



spartanstew said:


> Actually that changed about 3 years ago.
> 
> The top non-Elites are now virtually identical to the bottom tiered Elites.


----------



## oldschoolecw

SteveHas said:


> its a done deal
> 498 from amazon


Great choice, you will love it


----------



## oldschoolecw

The Elite are much better built, look at the weight difference's as well. The systems may have the same specs but it's what is in the Elite that makes it better then the lower end units.


----------



## SteveHas

oldschoolecw said:


> The Elite are much better built, look at the weight difference's as well. The systems may have the same specs but it's what is in the Elite that makes it better then the lower end units.


I would second guess this simply from a manufacturing cost stand point.

It actually costs a manufacturer more to build the same unit with components of differing quality.
In fact the electronics, and other industries have been building the same units on the same line with identical internal components, but varying cosmetics for years. 
Computer, and auto manufacturers have done this as well.
I can't prove it in this particular case, but I strongly suspect it is true here.
Given the cost per unit of say a capacitor, which is usually in these volumes pennies, or fractions of a penny its cheaper for them to just buy one kind, and buy ALOT of them.
To change the production line feed to use another lower grade capacitor in a board sub assembly represents a loss to the manufacturer.
The marketing line is that the units are radically different to justify the additional mark up.
SKUs at the very top end of the "high line" units are in fact very different, at lower end, not so much.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

lugnutathome said:


> As an AV receiver Onkyo has great value and features. If you also are a music enthusiast it may disappoint however. Onkyo has a low damping factor (ability to control the speaker post signal transmit (like shocks on a car stop it from bouncing after the initial impact)).


In the upper end models...that's a configurable feature.

No complains whatsoever here at using the top-end Onkyo here.


----------



## SteveHas

received my 1120 this am
sounds tremendous, 
pq is amazing
but

no HDMI pass through on this unit without a Pioneer Kuro TV

I am pissed


----------



## Hoosier205

SteveHas said:


> no HDMI pass through on this unit without a Pioneer Kuro TV
> 
> I am pissed


...why? Why would you want the receiver off while watching something? There is no reason to. Allow your receiver to process all audio. Regardless, it works with any display which supports HDMI CEC connections....no only Pioneer displays.


----------



## harsh

Hoosier205 said:


> ...why? Why would you want the receiver off while watching something?


When I have house guests, I don't want to have to explain how to operate my home entertainment system. I'm averse to spending $$$ for a remote that isn't particularly well thought out for daily use.

I like that they can just turn on the TV and watch without having to tinker with my AVR.

If I had a display without audio capability the story might be different (or I'd make them watch a regular TV).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> When I have house guests, I don't want to have to explain how to operate my home entertainment system. I'm averse to spending $$$ for a remote that isn't particularly well thought out for daily use.


Ahhh...yeah...that $45 I spent on the Harmony 650 universal remote in my family room, where 1 button turns everything on or off, another changes from one device to another, and another adjusts channels or volume (all buttons are labeled)....is really complex and expensive stuff... requiring an extensive training program.... :lol:

Not to worry....the 8 and 10 year old visitors this past wekend figured it out on their own....WHEW...what a relief.


----------



## lflorack

harsh said:


> When I have house guests, I don't want to have to explain how to operate my home entertainment system. I'm averse to spending $$$ for a remote that isn't particularly well thought out for daily use.
> 
> I like that they can just turn on the TV and watch without having to tinker with my AVR.
> 
> If I had a display without audio capability the story might be different (or I'd make them watch a regular TV).


A universal remote would solve any issues in this area. I've had multiple house guests (aged 8 and above) able to run my complete AV system (TV, DVR, BluRay, DVD, CD, XM radio, WII, DVD-A, etc) without any difficulty or assistance -- because of my Harmony One's (one for the Den and one for the Great Room). The "One's" also make my day-to-day operation simple and very convenient. Both of my sons have Harmony's at their homes too because of what they saw at my house. Very worthwhile for the money spent. But, to each his own I guess.


----------



## Hoosier205

harsh said:


> When I have house guests, I don't want to have to explain how to operate my home entertainment system. I'm averse to spending $$$ for a remote that isn't particularly well thought out for daily use.
> 
> I like that they can just turn on the TV and watch without having to tinker with my AVR.
> 
> If I had a display without audio capability the story might be different (or I'd make them watch a regular TV).


...a Harmony remote would require them to push a single button. Nothing to tinker with.


----------



## SteveHas

Hoosier205 said:


> ...why? Why would you want the receiver off while watching something? There is no reason to. Allow your receiver to process all audio. Regardless, it works with any display which supports HDMI CEC connections....no only Pioneer displays.


Why, because its what I want thats why

As I have said before, in my house I do not want to fire up an 840 watt receiver for my kids to watch iCarly!
thats wasteful, and simply is not needed
my wife wants to hit the on button on the D* remote and go as usual, and to be honest so do I
further now any viewer has to open the AV rack doors to expose the 1120, and the center channel speaker to just watch TV as well

If I pay for a feature I want it to work
period


----------



## SteveHas

harsh said:


> When I have house guests, I don't want to have to explain how to operate my home entertainment system. I'm averse to spending $$$ for a remote that isn't particularly well thought out for daily use.
> 
> I like that they can just turn on the TV and watch without having to tinker with my AVR.
> 
> If I had a display without audio capability the story might be different (or I'd make them watch a regular TV).


+1!

sure a programmable remote would turn every thing on & off, but that's not the point
I want the things I buy to works as advertised
this feature was one of my major criteria
coming up with a work around does nothing to address a feature that simply doesn't work


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SteveHas said:


> +1!


Then a simple remote solves that need. This is not complicated, and 10 minutes of setup puts you easily in charge of using anything the way you wish.

The Harmony 650 universal remote address up to and including 5 different devices with single-button control....other models address even more devices...even a caveman can use it.


----------



## spartanstew

Obviously Steve can do things however he wishes.

That being said, I'll also agree with everyone else.

A Harmony is very, very simple (as I'm sure other remotes are). My 5 year old son can enter the living room and watch one of his recorded shows very simply. He doesn't even realize that there's 3 DVR's in the rack, a blu ray player, a VCR, an AVR, a WDTV, three separate 2TB HD's, and a UPS.

He just hits the Green button and starts watching (or hits the up arrow to select from the list). If he wants to watch a movie, he just hits the orange button (and a list of movies appears from the WDTV).

I doubt he even realizes the sound isn't coming from the TV, but is actually coming from the 5.1 sound system.

Using the sound system is not wasteful, just simpler.


----------



## Hoosier205

SteveHas said:


> Why, because its what I want thats why
> 
> As I have said before, in my house I do not want to fire up an 840 watt receiver for my kids to watch iCarly!
> thats wasteful, and simply is not needed
> my wife wants to hit the on button on the D* remote and go as usual, and to be honest so do I
> further now any viewer has to open the AV rack doors to expose the 1120, and the center channel speaker to just watch TV as well
> 
> If I pay for a feature I want it to work
> period


 The feature does work so long as your display is compatible. Does it have to be a Pioneer display? No.


----------



## spartanstew

SteveHas said:


> received my 1120 this am
> sounds tremendous,
> pq is amazing
> but
> 
> no HDMI pass through on this unit without a Pioneer Kuro TV
> 
> I am pissed


Sorry Steve.

I feel like I lead you astray on that one. I guess the folks at AVS that claimed it did have pass through must have all been using Pio displays.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SteveHas said:


> Why, because its what I want thats why
> 
> As I have said before, in my house I do not want to fire up an 840 watt receiver for my kids to watch iCarly!
> thats wasteful, and simply is not needed


Certainly your choice.

That is all configurable....depending on how you want to set it up in a universal remote.


----------



## lflorack

SteveHas said:


> Why, because its what I want thats why
> 
> As I have said before, in my house I do not want to fire up an 840 watt receiver for my kids to watch iCarly!
> thats wasteful, and simply is not needed
> my wife wants to hit the on button on the D* remote and go as usual, and to be honest so do I
> further now any viewer has to open the AV rack doors to expose the 1120, and the center channel speaker to just watch TV as well
> 
> If I pay for a feature I want it to work
> period


Again, to each their own but you can have a one-button (activity) choice to turn on just the components you'd like. If you don't want to fire up the receiver to watch TV, you can. Just set an activity up that only turns on the TV and DVR (or whatever). You can, if you wish, set up another activity to turn on the receiver along with the TV and DVR. Still a single-button.

Again, to each their own -- and I know you want the feature to work. I'm just explaining a bit......


----------



## lugnutathome

Just read the manual for the TX-NR5008 saw no such item This is in the amps base properties and not a user adjustable space. (that amp looks pretty cool BTW)

I'm not saying it's bad just it's below "standards" which are arguably subjective at best.

As I've always maintained, buy what you like, and love every minute of it.

I would never presume to call anybody's toys sub par we have so many factors in what we use from budgetary, spousal tolerance, spatial, etc...

I have a pair of Klipsch floor standing RF7s atop a raised wall face in the big room. They sit 4 ft up from the floor. My wife's comment "can't they be more discreet?". "Sure for about 10 to 15K more for each speaker". "NO their UGLY!"

Being the sympathetic sort I am and the fact that this time there would be no compromise I said "deal with it". We had some turf wars for a couple of years with her wanting to put bric-a-brac up there in front of the speakers. She jokingly refers to that area as our "Gaza Strip" but now knows nothing that will vibrate and the areas which I will clear.

She loves the sound and I will probably encase the speakers in a white sonic transparent speaker front "cage" at some point.

A link that has some further blather on the matter:grin:

http://www.bcae1.com/dampfact.htm

Don "when it hits the road its all subjective based on many factors" Bolton



hdtvfan0001 said:


> In the upper end models...that's a configurable feature.
> 
> No complains whatsoever here at using the top-end Onkyo here.


----------



## bobukcat

SteveHas said:


> received my 1120 this am
> sounds tremendous,
> pq is amazing
> but
> 
> no HDMI pass through on this unit without a Pioneer Kuro TV
> 
> I am pissed


Total bummer that it doesn't work with your TV/Monitor, what brand / model is it that you have and won't work?

I'm generally in the "just turn the AVR on" camp but you want what you want and it sucks to get something that doesn't work the way it was advertised to / you thought it did.


----------



## spartanstew

lflorack said:


> Again, to each their own but you can have a one-button (activity) choice to turn on just the components you'd like. If you don't want to fire up the receiver to watch TV, you can. Just set an activity up that only turns on the TV and DVR (or whatever). You can, if you wish, set up another activity to turn on the receiver along with the TV and DVR. Still a single-button.
> 
> Again, to each their own -- and I know you want the feature to work. I'm just explaining a bit......


But that won't work if his AVR doesn't have HDMI passthrough. That's his point.


----------



## lflorack

spartanstew said:


> But that won't work if his AVR doesn't have HDMI passthrough. That's his point.


With the way it's currently wired (via the AVR) I agree. I was jumping ahead a little and wasn't at all clear.

Although I understand being pissed about it, now that he knows the AVR doesn't work as he thought it would (HDMI pass-through), something needs to change. I'm not trying to be flipant but at this point he needs to either swap to get a different AVR or rewire and adapt.

If he decides to rewire and adapt, the following can work: I have my DVR attached directly to my TV via HDMI and to the AVR via toslink. Video always goes to the TV via HDMI but the DVR sends audio to the TV speakers via HDMI when not using the AVR (rarely) OR through the AVR via toslnk. Since the DVR can only produce Dolby Digital 5.1 anyway, toslink works fine. A universal remote makes this easy to control.


----------



## SteveHas

Hoosier205 said:


> The feature does work so long as your display is compatible. Does it have to be a Pioneer display? No.


Remote does not do away with power consumption issue,
or potential volume issues caused by a kid playing cartoons to loud through a 800+ avr
I would suspect a HUGE electric bill jump if the 1120 was fired up for every hour of viewing in family room, 
I am not ready, or willing to pay for such a waste

The remote is just ONE little part of this issue that some of you seem to be stuck on
I have programmable remotes, have for years
started with a Phillips Pronto that had my kids faces on them
when they touched their own face the image stuck its tongue out, and jumped to a graphic channel list
A Harmony remote is a wonderful thing, but I truly believe that simple is better...with some things
I sold the Pronto because the simple little D* remote does 99% of what I need on a daily basis, and I don't have to worry, or futz with it
if it dies, or gets busted, or some kid playing PS3 in family room dumps a soda into it, I shell out another $25.00 for  another one
who cares

*TV, or monitor has to be CEC, yes SO do all source units
My Samsung 5271 is CEC (Anynet) and works with the 1120 fine*
in fact it shows an OSD of volume on the 1120, when I shut the TV and DVR off with my D* remote, the 1120 dutifully shuts down as well from the same button push

Calling Pioneer today they said that 
My dvr must be CEC to use HDMI pass through
and
they were not aware of ANY DirecTV DVRs that were CEC,
(wait, whats this?)
in fact he went on to say and this I quote
"we are not aware of any new DVRs from D*, or D* that are CEC
the one the engineers have been testing with is 3 years old"

I told him of stories here of people with otehr brand avrs working with D* dvrs and pass through and he was surprised.
He said I was the first 1120 owner to call saying that passthrough was not working with a CEC dvr...if it indeed is cec.
I told him it sure seems like it is from what you folks have said.
He is passing my comments onto engineering he said. He added that he knew the engineers had worked directly with D* in the past, maybe they will again.

So I think this is the issue, Pioneer does not recognize the HR24 as CEC, therefore there may be a firmware issue here that needs addressing.

_*So who here has a HR24 AND a Pioneer VSX-1120 that 
HAS HDMI PASS THROUGH WORKING*_?

I suspect there may not be any.
I hope I'm wrong and the power to fix this is in my hands not Pioneer's

I do love the 1120 though
gonna keep it for sure
its just too good, truly it is amazing


----------



## SteveHas

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Certainly your choice.
> 
> That is all configurable....depending on how you want to set it up in a universal remote.


remote can not alter power consumption of avr through configuration


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SteveHas said:


> remote can not alter power consumption of avr through configuration


Really?

So if you don't turn on the AVR, it won't save on power use? Hmmm....


----------



## David Ortiz

SteveHas said:


> TV has to be CEC, yes SO does all source units
> My Samsung is CEC and works with the 1120 fine
> in fact it shows an OSD of volume on the 1120, when I shut the TV and DVR off with my D* remote, the 1120 dutifully shuts down as well from the same button push


One thing you might try is to turn off CEC on the display. Sometimes there can be contention between devices.

If all else fails, have you thought about a 4x2 HDMI switch? That way you can send one input to the receiver and one to the HDTV.


----------



## dettxw

I've got the similar VSX-1020 in the Living Room connected to a Samsung LN46A630 and 3 D* boxes. I haven't messed with CEC on any of those but certainly can try, and if it would help I can move the HR24-500 to the Living Room to play with. 

My problem is having to leave the Living Room AVR on 24/7 so as not to confuse my old gray-haired mom. Evidently it's asking too much to both turn on the TV/DTV and the AVR, as would be learning a new remote like a Harmony. :bang


----------



## Hoosier205

SteveHas said:


> Remote does not do away with power consumption issue,
> or potential volume issues caused by a kid playing cartoons to loud through a 800+ avr
> I would suspect a HUGE electric bill jump if the 1120 was fired up for every hour of viewing in family room,
> I am not ready, or willing to pay for such a waste
> 
> The remote is just ONE little part of this issue that some of you seem to be stuck on
> I have programmable remotes, have for years
> started with a Phillips Pronto that had my kids faces on them
> when they touched their own face the image stuck its tongue out, and jumped to a graphic channel list
> A Harmony remote is a wonderful thing, but I truly believe that simple is better...with some things
> I sold the Pronto because the simple little D* remote does 99% of what I need on a daily basis, and I don't have to worry, or futz with it
> if it dies, or gets busted, or some kid playing PS3 in family room dumps a soda into it, I shell out another $25.00 for another one
> who cares
> 
> *TV, or monitor has to be CEC, yes SO do all source units
> My Samsung 5271 is CEC (Anynet) and works with the 1120 fine*
> in fact it shows an OSD of volume on the 1120, when I shut the TV and DVR off with my D* remote, the 1120 dutifully shuts down as well from the same button push
> 
> Calling Pioneer today they said that
> My dvr must be CEC to use HDMI pass through
> and
> they were not aware of ANY DirecTV DVRs that were CEC,
> (wait, whats this?)
> in fact he went on to say and this I quote
> "we are not aware of any new DVRs from D*, or D* that are CEC
> the one the engineers have been testing with is 3 years old"
> 
> I told him of stories here of people with otehr brand avrs working with D* dvrs and pass through and he was surprised.
> He said I was the first 1120 owner to call saying that passthrough was not working with a CEC dvr...if it indeed is cec.
> I told him it sure seems like it is from what you folks have said.
> He is passing my comments onto engineering he said. He added that he knew the engineers had worked directly with D* in the past, maybe they will again.
> 
> So I think this is the issue, Pioneer does not recognize the HR24 as CEC, therefore there may be a firmware issue here that needs addressing.
> 
> _*So who here has a HR24 AND a Pioneer VSX-1120 that
> HAS HDMI PASS THROUGH WORKING*_?
> 
> I suspect there may not be any.
> I hope I'm wrong and the power to fix this is in my hands not Pioneer's
> 
> I do love the 1120 though
> gonna keep it for sure
> its just too good, truly it is amazing


Actually, from what I have read elsewhere...receivers from various manufacturers draw a lot of power in standby when passing the HDMI signal through to the display. So, if energy savings is one of your concerns there may not be as much benefit as we might think.

Do whatever you want to do. It's your equipment. I've just never understood the point of bypassing the receiver. There seems to be no benefit, but whatever...


----------



## spartanstew

lflorack said:


> With the way it's currently wired (via the AVR) I agree. I was jumping ahead a little and wasn't at all clear.
> 
> Although I understand being pissed about it, now that he knows the AVR doesn't work as he thought it would (HDMI pass-through), something needs to change. I'm not trying to be flipant but at this point he needs to either swap to get a different AVR or rewire and adapt.
> 
> If he decides to rewire and adapt, the following can work: I have my DVR attached directly to my TV via HDMI and to the AVR via toslink. Video always goes to the TV via HDMI but the DVR sends audio to the TV speakers via HDMI when not using the AVR (rarely) OR through the AVR via toslnk. Since the DVR can only produce Dolby Digital 5.1 anyway, toslink works fine. A universal remote makes this easy to control.


Yes, but according to the OP, he also has a PS3. You would not want to hook up a PS3 that way, because than you would lose lossless audio. So, now, we're back to either keeping the AVR on all the time or replacing the receiver. Everyone's situation is different. Your workarounds won't work for everybody.


----------



## lflorack

spartanstew said:


> Yes, but according to the OP, he also has a PS3. You would not want to hook up a PS3 that way, because than you would lose lossless audio. So, now, we're back to either keeping the AVR on all the time or replacing the receiver. Everyone's situation is different. Your workarounds won't work for everybody.


I agree that my set up and solutions won't work for everybody. I don't think I said that. I only offered it as an example of what might work and works for me. BTW, I have both a BluRay player and a DVD player (playes SACD and DVD A's) in my system and they're connected to the TV through the AVR via HDMI because I can't ever imagine watching a BluRay or a DVD without using the AVR. Works for me -- obviously not Steve.

The AVR Pass-Through that doesn't work coupled with the PS3 and Steve's over-riding requirement of not wanting to run the AVR very often makes this a very difficult issue to solve. Hopefully, Steve can get his AVR pass-through issue solved or be able to swap it with an AVR that provides a working pass-through so he can get what he wants.


----------



## lugnutathome

The problem with the PS3 is the LPCM for lossless audio codecs. If it's passing signal through to the TV on the setup handshake it will dumb it all down to DD5.1 as it's best output period would it not?

For the DTV box HDMI to TV and optical to receiver.
For the PS3 HDMI to the receiver PLUS composite audio/video to the TV. Component would yield a better analog picture but unsure if the presence of the analog connection would preclude the HDMI from scaling past 1080i.

Having an HDMI pass through on a receiver I'm uncertain if it will exclude the lossless audio from setting up at all or when the AV system is off a lossless codec could be passed to the TV and it would not be good. Is this what the low power on does? (convert the audio down to the lower handshake limits?)

I've a receiver capable of this if I set it up (RX-Z11) but I could not see why I would do it. My HR boxes connect HDMI to the TV and optical to the receiver freeing up yet 1 more HDMI port for another toy when I need it 

Everybody has different needs and HDMI doesn't cleanly fit them all. It presumes your AVR is the center of your TV realm whereas for some the TV should be central and the AVR subordinate to that like it was back in Pro Logic times. I get that and am not sure the toy makers have not though.

Don "sometime you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't" Bolton



spartanstew said:


> Yes, but according to the OP, he also has a PS3. You would not want to hook up a PS3 that way, because than you would lose lossless audio. So, now, we're back to either keeping the AVR on all the time or replacing the receiver. Everyone's situation is different. Your workarounds won't work for everybody.


----------



## spartanstew

lflorack said:


> BTW, I have both a BluRay player and a DVD player (playes SACD and DVD A's) in my system and they're connected to the TV through the AVR via HDMI because I can't ever imagine watching a BluRay or a DVD without using the AVR. Works for me -- obviously not Steve.


Perhaps Steve can't imagine watching a Blu Ray without his AVR either. But wants the ability to play video games late at night without the AVR.


----------



## SteveHas

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Really?
> 
> So if you don't turn on the AVR, it won't save on power use? Hmmm....


it would if pass through was working which it isn't
so avr needs to be on for all viewing
thats the whole point here


----------



## SteveHas

dettxw said:


> I've got the similar VSX-1020 in the Living Room connected to a Samsung LN46A630 and 3 D* boxes. I haven't messed with CEC on any of those but certainly can try, and if it would help I can move the HR24-500 to the Living Room to play with.
> 
> My problem is having to leave the Living Room AVR on 24/7 so as not to confuse my old gray-haired mom. Evidently it's asking too much to both turn on the TV/DTV and the AVR, as would be learning a new remote like a Harmony. :bang


I appreciate your offer, but don't do so on my account,
it is very nice of you though
thank you
be careful though
apparently its insanity to suggest leaving your avr off some times
:blackeye:


----------



## SteveHas

Hoosier205 said:


> Actually, from what I have read elsewhere...receivers from various manufacturers draw a lot of power in standby when passing the HDMI signal through to the display. So, if energy savings is one of your concerns there may not be as much benefit as we might think.
> 
> Do whatever you want to do. It's your equipment. I've just never understood the point of bypassing the receiver. There seems to be no benefit, but whatever...


you're right
they do draw power in stand by, but not 800+ watts
I never said I wanted to by pass the receiver, if I did I would have kept my Denon avr
I just don't want to have the sound coming through a 7.1 system every time I want to TV


----------



## Hoosier205

I wouldn't say it is insanity...just not much of a benefit either. It's easier to just get a universal remote that will control all devices with one button and allow the receiver to handle all audio. I know you don't want that, but...

Simply use the receiver in a 2.0 channel mode if you don't want all channels fired up.


----------



## SteveHas

lflorack said:


> I agree that my set up and solutions won't work for everybody. I don't think I said that. I only offered it as an example of what might work and works for me. BTW, I have both a BluRay player and a DVD player (playes SACD and DVD A's) in my system and they're connected to the TV through the AVR via HDMI because I can't ever imagine watching a BluRay or a DVD without using the AVR. Works for me -- obviously not Steve.
> 
> The AVR Pass-Through that doesn't work coupled with the PS3 and Steve's over-riding requirement of not wanting to run the AVR very often makes this a very difficult issue to solve. Hopefully, Steve can get his AVR pass-through issue solved or be able to swap it with an AVR that provides a working pass-through so he can get what he wants.


"connected to the TV through the AVR via HDMI because I can't ever imagine watching a BluRay or a DVD without using the AVR. Works for me -- obviously not Steve."

geezus
who said that?!
I NEVER watch blu rays any other way but HDMI
the pass through is for my HR24-500, perhaps to allow occasionaly allow my son to play games with out the 7.1 
(forgive me for wanting this insanity)
I never said I cared about pass through on the PS3

pass through gives me simplicity and options
gives me the video processing of sd from the HR24 if I want
and the option to leave everything off if I don't
Blu ray movies never leave the 1120

alot of assumptions being made here folks

this is starting to sound nasty like AVS
too bad I loved this place


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SteveHas said:


> it would if pass through was working which it isn't
> so avr needs to be on for all viewing
> thats the whole point here


A simple HDMI switch would solve that issue.

Is the goal electricity savings or simplicity?


----------



## spartanstew

SteveHas said:


> "connected to the TV through the AVR via HDMI because I can't ever imagine watching a BluRay or a DVD without using the AVR. Works for me -- obviously not Steve."
> 
> geezus
> who said that?!
> I NEVER watch blu rays any other way but HDMI
> the pass through is for my HR24-500, perhaps to allow occasionaly allow my son to play games with out the 7.1
> (forgive me for wanting this insanity)
> I never said I cared about pass through on the PS3
> 
> pass through gives me simplicity and options
> gives me the video processing of sd from the HR24 if I want
> and the option to leave everything off if I don't
> Blu ray movies never leave the 1120
> 
> alot of assumptions being made here folks
> 
> this is starting to sound nasty like AVS
> too bad I loved this place


I thought you wanted passthrough for the PS3 too. If the goal is just to be able to use the HR24-500 without the AVR on occasion (and not the PS3), then why not just connect the HR24 to your display via HDMI and to the 1120 via optical as someone suggested earlier?


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

My new Marantz SR7005 performs passthru perfectly.


----------

