# Low-Latency Service?



## znelson (Jul 6, 2015)

Hello, total satellite newbie here -

I'm working on a project that deals with tv commercial timing analysis and thus we require tv service. However, one of the requirements is that the feed we use has as little latency as possible (compared to the broadcasters' raw signal). So I am tasked with finding a service that has as few hops between the original broadcaster signals as possible. 

We initially thought that Verizon Fios may be a good provider because their network is fiber and there's only two headends on their network. However, when we compared several channels between Fios and a local cable system, we found Verizon's signal to be up to 8 seconds delayed. Our goal is to reduce that delay as much as possible, so obviously that removes DirecTV and Dish from the list because those extra round trips to space and back would introduce too much latency.

Is it possible to subscribe to channels directly off the primary broadcast satellites the way that cable operators do? Sorry if this is a completely naive question, but I'm out of the loop. Many thanks in advance!


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

I would think an over the air antenna would be the least delays in the signal that you could get.
Cable is probably next. I know that at time I will be talking to my mother that has cable and I have DTV and we will be talking about a ball game she is watching and she will say things like, "oh, he struck out" and on my TV they have not even thrown the pitch to strike the guy out yet.
Good luck.

There are several on her that have actual technical knowledge that might be of some help to what you are looking for.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Once we left the analog domain, delays are built into the system. I feed an SD MPEG stream to my local Comcast via fiber and it takes about seven seconds to come back with the detail sucked out of it. The Youtube feed takes a little over 30 seconds to return.

Most (probably all) network feeds are encrypted anymore so that's no longer an option.

Why is getting the commercial as early as possible important?


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## znelson (Jul 6, 2015)

Thanks, everyone. I can't delve into the "why" of the low-latency requirement but it's very important to the project. Maybe I should back up a minute and ask a related question. If I'm a big dish owner, who am I paying for the programming? I assume there are providers out there who package-up tiers of channels and I can pay one monthly price and receive them. If that's the case, then are those providers operating their own satellites? It seems highly unlikely that they would receive satellite content from the networks and then rebroadcast it, but again, I'm new to all of this. Unfortunately, almost every search result on Google comes up full of DirecTV and Dish links so it's really hard for me to sort this out.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

The option to get the main feeds that the cable providers use with the big dish are long gone. The only option is resellers of Comcast's HITS service which reuplinks channels, so they have a similar delay to Dish and DirecTV.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

znelson said:


> Thanks, everyone. I can't delve into the "why" of the low-latency requirement but it's very important to the project. Maybe I should back up a minute and ask a related question. If I'm a big dish owner, who am I paying for the programming? I assume there are providers out there who package-up tiers of channels and I can pay one monthly price and receive them. If that's the case, then are those providers operating their own satellites? It seems highly unlikely that they would receive satellite content from the networks and then rebroadcast it, but again, I'm new to all of this. Unfortunately, almost every search result on Google comes up full of DirecTV and Dish links so it's really hard for me to sort this out.


Have you tried putting the minus sign in front of words you do not want included in the search results ?
Example: -DirecTV


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't think you're going to be able to get very close to your goal in a way that will be consistent between the various networks or channels. Coupling that with the variations in when people receive the content on their respective services and your model may have assumed something that can no longer be taken for granted.

There was a thread a short while ago that noted the delivery differential between different types of devices from the same source with the flagship DVR delivering content with the greatest overall delay.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

If all you are concerned about is local stations - the speed king will be OTA (receive it from an antenna as direct as possible),

Throwing cable channels into the mix - it really doesn't matter, as I think just about all providers get their signals via satellite. Dish and Direct Tv have the extra hop to space and back, so using cable is probably the closest you will get to your goal..

The above is my opinion only, and may bear no resemblance to reality.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Aren't some of the superstations like WGN sent unencrypted? If so, a big dish should be able to pick them up without too much difficulty if you know where to aim it. Best to check in one of the FTA forums since they would have a better idea about that stuff than dbstalk which is pretty much Dish & Directv focused.

Picking up OTA signals is great if local commercials fit the bill, if they have to be national commercials then you deal with the fact that your local broadcasters are picking up the network feed via satellite and thus has that latency introduced, plus whatever encoding latency there is.

Could you explain more about WHY latency matters for this project that has to do with commercials? That doesn't really make much sense to me.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I would not expect to find WGN or any other pay channel unencrypted. Most of the unencrypted channels would be content the distributor does not mind giving away for free (religious and some international channels). Finding an unencrypted feed is a challenge. Any predictable or regular feed is likely to be encrypted.

Home BUD seems to have gone full circle from hobbyists playing around to a viable alternative to cable back to hobbyists playing around.

As far as latency ... I agree that the lowest on a local station would be OTA. Satellite from the network delayed slightly by processing output OTA. Most cable and satellite rebroadcasters pick up an OTA signal and another slight delay is added by their processing (especially satellite where the signal is backhauled to an uplink site before making the long bounce to space and back). Add a little buffering in the receivers and the latency can be noted.

One place where I notice latency on cable channels is watching NASCAR. When a pit reporter does a live shot from the top of a pit box and the network feed is playing in the background ... one can see the latency from live camera through the system to the displayed signal (normally via satellite).

As long as the latency is consistent it is not a problem ... and it usually is not long enough to cause a problem (such as one person seeing the "closer to live" feed being able to cheat and place a bet against a person with more latency).


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## mcrutland (Dec 29, 2004)

Our Fox affiliate WLOV's direct fiber cable feed to Comcast is three seconds ahead of their OTA feed.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

mcrutland said:


> Are Fox affiliate WLOV's direct fiber cable feed to Comcast is three seconds ahead of their OTA feed.


Interesting, they must receive the feed before the station encodes it and have a faster encoder than the station does.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Interesting, they must receive the feed before the station encodes it and have a faster encoder than the station does.


I don't think this is as unusual as you might think. Cable companies have large banks of fancy and QAM muxes where a TV station is multiplexing ATSC with its associated baggage.

Since many cable companies have fiber going hither and yon, why not?


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