# Breaking News: Senate votes to delay DTV transition four months



## JDubbs413

msnbc.com: BREAKING NEWS: Senate approves four-month delay in digital TV conversion

Looks like it won't be until at least June now.

EDIT: Link - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28863961/


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

I am moving this to the "Broadcast/HDTV" forum.


----------



## JDubbs413

Thanks I wasn't sure where it should go.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Here is the link....http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28863961/

I edit the first post and added it there too.


----------



## cforrest

More like June if it's a 4-month delay, which was expected based on news reports over the weeekend. Oh well, so much for going digital next month!


----------



## GaryPotter

And Congress scratches their butts and wonders why no one has faith in them...

A few idiots from Dumbbell, Chicago are too stupid to read what's right in front of their face complain, and we all have to suffer. It really doesn't take much to get Congress to shiver, shreak, and wring their hands in agony. God help this country.


----------



## davring

6.5 million people still don't have a clue...


----------



## GaryPotter

Screw them.

Seriously, just get a clue morons. I mean, how ignorant can you be?


----------



## ercjncprdtv

GaryPotter said:


> Screw them.
> 
> Seriously, just get a clue morons. I mean, how ignorant can you be?


100% IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU!! THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!:nono2:


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

No political discussion please.


----------



## eudoxia

Beyond the whole screw up running out of money for converter box vouchers, this is bad news for many TV stations who have planned this out for years and cannot afford to maintain already obsolete transmitter equipment.


----------



## GaryPotter

Exactly. It's the little stations like KVCR in San Bernardino, CA that really get boned by this one.


----------



## cforrest

Hopefully the house passes their own version with a different date, then this delay can go into committee and get stalled before the current deadline of Feb. We shall see. Love our gov't, as if the over 50K job losses today should not be the focus of Congress.


----------



## Bob Coxner

The voucher program ran out of money. There are several million people on the waiting list for vouchers. Just because not everyone has the bucks to spend on tv tech like most forum members doesn't mean the less fortunate don't matter. Let's try to have some compassion.

As for "morons", there are millions of seniors who barely understand how analog tv works, much less digital. A bit more time to help them convert is not such a burden.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Folks, I made my above post because this type of discussion can get political very fast and I have already deleted a couple of posts. Please leave out the political discussion.


----------



## love that tv

relax!! why is everyone so angry about this? really? how does this effect any of you?


----------



## jhollan2

Absolutely ridiculous! So in 4 months we'll have the same issue... people havent gotten their boxes. In the meantime, broadcasting suffers because the stations are forced to broadcast on machines they didnt repair and frequencies that could be sold...


----------



## boylehome

A solution is for the Gov. to provide a large screen HDTV 1080p to every citizen with some of the $800 Billion bailout monies! Actually, by the time June gets here, the date will get pushed to the 12th of neveruary


----------



## jamieh1

In four months it will be the same thing. Just go ahead and switch.


----------



## V'ger

Bob Coxner said:


> The voucher program ran out of money. There are several million people on the waiting list for vouchers. Just because not everyone has the bucks to spend on tv tech like most forum members doesn't mean the less fortunate don't matter. Let's try to have some compassion.
> 
> As for "morons", there are millions of seniors who barely understand how analog tv works, much less digital. A bit more time to help them convert is not such a burden.


I am waiting for the new Congress to revise the program so the remaining "poor" without a converter box get a new voucher for a wide screen TV instead of a lousy converter box.

On the flip side, the ignorant aren't likely to smarten up in four months and there will be someone whining that they need ANOTHER delay to allow the ignorant to get their converter boxes.


----------



## Bob Coxner

jhollan2 said:


> Absolutely ridiculous! So in 4 months we'll have the same issue... people havent gotten their boxes. In the meantime, broadcasting suffers because the stations are forced to broadcast on machines they didnt repair and frequencies that could be sold...


The frequencies have already been sold. The buyers, according to this Wall Street Journal story, are ok with the delay.

"AT&T Inc. and Verizon Communications Inc. -- the owners of the lion's share of airwaves freed up by TV's move to digital -- have indicated they can support a one-time, short extension of the transition."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123301569051417677.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


----------



## GaryPotter

love that tv said:


> relax!! why is everyone so angry about this? really? how does this effect any of you?


The issue is that it was a hard date. It was said a million times that this was when the transition would happen. Now, at the very last minute, they decide to muddy the waters and change it, thereby completely ruining the plans that just about everyone made. It does absolutely nothing at all to help anyone and only makes everyone involved look stupid.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

Bob Coxner said:


> The voucher program ran out of money. There are several million people on the waiting list for vouchers. Just because not everyone has the bucks to spend on tv tech like most forum members doesn't mean the less fortunate don't matter. Let's try to have some compassion.
> 
> As for "morons", there are millions of seniors who barely understand how analog tv works, much less digital. A bit more time to help them convert is not such a burden.


I'm sorry, these people have seen the daily announcements on TV and numerous articles in the newspapers etc. What part of *YOU MUST DO THIS BY FEB 17th* don't they understand. I, as a rule, have great compassion for folks like this and am on their side in everything (trying to avoid politics here) but I *cannot* sympathize with them on this. Everyone knows this deadine was coming. They have NO excuse!


----------



## dodge boy

The only morons are the idiots on here crying "foul". You locals will be digital by Feb. They just don't have to shut off the analog channels then. Serious if your locals aren't broadcasting in digital by now, you must be living in that little town "Deliverence" was filmed in.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

jhollan2 said:


> Absolutely ridiculous! So in 4 months we'll have the same issue... people havent gotten their boxes. In the meantime, broadcasting suffers because the stations are forced to broadcast on machines they didnt repair and frequencies that could be sold...


In fact I have a sinking feeling that the switch will never happen.


----------



## bobukcat

All is not lost for those of us opposed to the delay (just rip the bandaid off already!) all is not yet lost. Our wonderful government still has to pass the bill in the house and then work on the differences between them before sending it to POTUS, I have confidence that they can screw around with that long enough to miss the deadline! :grin:


----------



## Bob_M

That figures.:nono2: Now what makes us think that they won't delay it again because were still not ready four months from now? What's the difference February or June? They have been advertising this for months. Too bad if the people are too lazy to go out and get there boxes


----------



## mreposter

The article headline at MSNBC is a bit deceptive. Only the Senate has passed this legislation - it hasn't made it through the House and has not been signed by the President. It may be law in a few days, but right now it's only half-way there at best.

Either way, this thing is stupid. It would be much simpler to allocate more funds for coupons, and will likely have to happen eventually anyway.


----------



## Bob_M

Fox News just claimed it was official


----------



## tcusta00

dodge boy said:


> The only morons are the idiots on here crying "foul". You locals will be digital by Feb. They just don't have to shut off the analog channels then. Serious if your locals aren't broadcasting in digital by now, you must be living in that little town "Deliverence" was filmed in.


I don't think that's the complaint that most people crying foul (myself included) have... it's that the government is spending more (of our) money to continue to advertise something that's been advertised for, what, 2 years?


----------



## jmpfaff

love that tv said:


> relax!! why is everyone so angry about this? really? how does this effect any of you?


Because this means 4 more months of those annoying "Digital Conversion coming soon" commercials and crawls....:nono2:


----------



## ukrobbie

Wonder if there was this much confusion switching from Beta to Vhs? :lol:


----------



## txtommy

love that tv said:


> relax!! why is everyone so angry about this? really? how does this effect any of you?


The only way it effects me and most others is that we have had to hear many times a day that the DTV transition is coming, have had to endure many tests to determine who is ready and countless countdown clocks. Looks like the countdown clocks will have to be reset and we'll have to endure more warnings. I can't wait for the transition to happen just so we don't have to hear about it all the time.


----------



## dodge boy

txtommy said:


> The only way it effects me and most others is that we have had to hear many times a day that the DTV transition is coming, have had to endure many tests to determine who is ready and countless countdown clocks. Looks like the countdown clocks will have to be reset and we'll have to endure more warnings. I can't wait for the transition to happen just so we don't have to hear about it all the time.


Maybe one more comment, buy a DVR and skip the commercials, move the picture on your screen so you can't see the crawls, it will be OK.... :lol:


----------



## James Long

cforrest said:


> Hopefully the house passes their own version with a different date, then this delay can go into committee and get stalled before the current deadline of Feb.


How about March 17th/18th? Let that go to conference committee.


----------



## MikeW

I hear the number is 6.5 million, but wonder where that came from. I think the best thing they could do is shut down the analogs for a couple of days and see the true effect. Once everybody is aware of how well prepared folks are, they can turn the analogs back on and let them know that, due to demand, the date has been extended for four months.

Honestly though, if you really watch TV, you've known this is coming and should have been prepared. The fact that so many are now on a waiting list surprises me.


----------



## Doug Brott

Yes folks, this is real ..


----------



## GaryPotter

What really gets my goat is just the fact that so many people are applying for that coupon in the first place. I bet 90% of them could easily buy one with their own money.


----------



## stiffi

There are people on this forum who it affects negatively. Any station owner/employee. I mean if a station has to spend 10's of thousands of dollars over the 4 months to maintain old equipment, 2 separate signals, and fund all that ridiculous advertising, what's to say that station won't cut jobs to make their budgets? 

My own personal gripe (I realize somewhat rare) is that I have a digital signal I should be able to get, completely blocked by the ridiculousy powerful adjacent analog signal. I've been waiting 2 years for this switch to figure out if my situation would improve by the analog signal going away. I guess I'll have to wait more before deciding on getting new equipment.


----------



## tcusta00

GaryPotter said:


> What really gets my goat is just the fact that so many people are applying for that coupon in the first place. I bet 90% of them could easily buy one with their own money.


That wasn't the point of the program. People wouldn't have to purchase a DTV converter if the transition wasn't mandated... can't punish people because the government wants to sell airwaves. So they created an equitable solution.

What gets my goat is people that get the coupons that don't need DTV boxes.


----------



## James Long

dodge boy said:


> The only morons are the idiots on here crying "foul". You locals will be digital by Feb. They just don't have to shut off the analog channels then. Serious if your locals aren't broadcasting in digital by now, you must be living in that little town "Deliverence" was filmed in.


Well instead of making insult posts why not understand the problem?
I'll give you a simple example:

WANE-TV 15 (digital 31) in Fort Wayne Indiana is currently operating at it's maximum pre-transition power of 317 kW because they are not permitted to interfere with the analog signal of WPXD-TV in Ann Arbor Michigan. Once WPXD-TV ceases analog WANE will be able to go to full power 1000 kW.

And if you think Deliverence was filmed in Fort Wayne, how about Chicago?

WBBM-TV 2 (digital 3) is on one of the worst digital assignments on the spectrum. When they transition they will be moving to a better channel - digital 12 - but they can't do that until a Milwaukee station and another one in Illinois turn off their analog.

There are just over 800 stations that were approved by the FCC to remain on analog for one month after analog cut off due to the analog nightlight bill. If this new bill limits continued service to those 800 stations and perhaps those who would cause no harm by not moving their digital to their analog channel we might have something workable. But stations NEED to be able to complete their digital construction. Crews and equipment are standing by.


----------



## tzphotos.com

GaryPotter said:


> And Congress scratches their butts and wonders why no one has faith in them...
> 
> A few idiots from Dumbbell, Chicago are too stupid to read what's right in front of their face complain, and we all have to suffer. It really doesn't take much to get Congress to shiver, shreak, and wring their hands in agony. God help this country.


What does Chicago have to do with this?

The only problem in Far Suburban Chicago is all the people waiting for Channel 2 to change to Channel 12 will have to wait until June to be able to watch CBS. So, Suburban Chicago would have benefited from the the transition happening early.

Hopefully CBS will go ahead and change the Digital channel over, but I don't think that can happen until Channel 11 shuts it's analog channel down.


----------



## Doug Brott

Couple of things .. (1) it's not approved by the House yet and (2)



> The bill would allow broadcasters to turn off analog signals before the June 12 deadline, and public safety agencies would be allowed to use those airwaves as soon as they are available. The bill would also allow consumers with expired coupons for converter boxes to re-apply for new ones.


So this is a bit of good news for those stations are ready to just be done on 2/17 as originally planned.


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> Yes folks, this is real ..


And unfortunately not spectacular. 

I'd like to read the language of the bill before getting much angrier ... but changing the date with less than three weeks to go isn't a good thing.


----------



## tcusta00

James Long said:


> And unfortunately not spectacular.


:lol:


----------



## Sirshagg

JDubbs413 said:


> msnbc.com: BREAKING NEWS: Senate approves four-month delay in digital TV conversion
> 
> Looks like it won't be until at least June now.
> 
> EDIT: Link - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28863961/


while I don't believe anything will stop this just the senate passing it does not make it a done deal yet.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

Doug Brott said:


> Couple of things .. (1) it's not approved by the House yet and (2)
> 
> So this is a bit of good news for those stations are ready to just be done on 2/17 as originally planned.


But has been pointed out by myself and others, this creates MORE confusion in the minds of the people who cannot (for whatever reason) "make the switch" . Some of their channels will still go away, others won't and they are thining , "wait I thought that I had until June 12th now"


----------



## ercjncprdtv

By the way, can someone find a site where this bill is posted. In spite of being "passed" by the Senate, as of 90 mins ago, it was not on their website.


----------



## sfmartin

dodge boy said:


> The only morons are the idiots on here crying "foul". You locals will be digital by Feb. They just don't have to shut off the analog channels then. Serious if your locals aren't broadcasting in digital by now, you must be living in that little town "Deliverence" was filmed in.


What about the analog channels that are scheduled to be used by another broadcaster's digital channel?


----------



## Sirshagg

sfmartin said:


> What about the analog channels that are scheduled to be used by another broadcaster's digital channel?


this is why channels that are ready might not be able to switch on 2/18.

what a fine mess!


----------



## softwiz

davring said:


> 6.5 million people still don't have a clue...


and the sad thing is... 4 months from now, 6.5 million people still won't have a clue but the government will have spent 3-4 billion trying to get them to get a clue.

I'm so tired of hearing the word BILLION over and over and over...


----------



## James Long

ercjncprdtv said:


> By the way, can someone find a site where this bill is posted. In spite of being "passed" by the Senate, as of 90 mins ago, it was not on their website.


I'm not expecting to see it on the GPO website until tomorrow and Thomas.LOC until after that.

S.328 if you're searching.


----------



## RAD

From http://www.austin360.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/TV/TV_Digital_Transition.html

_"NEW YORK - *Delaying the upcoming digital TV transition for four months would cost public broadcasters $22 million, the PBS system chief estimated on Monday.*

Paula Kerger, president and CEO of the Public Broadcasting System, said she hopes lawmakers keep that in mind as they consider legislation to delay the switch from Feb. 17 to June 12.

The stations will face increased power charges to maintain over-the-air broadcast signals, she said. Many have leases for signal transmitters that were due to expire on the date of the switch over and will have to make new arrangements, she said.'_

Guess we'll be seeing more pledge drives, or Washington (CPB) will be spending more tax dollars to help offset the costs.


----------



## Steve615

From Yahoo & AP:
The delay in the digital transition could cost PBS as much as $22 million.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090126/ap_en_tv/tv_digital_transition


----------



## Bob Coxner

stiffi said:


> There are people on this forum who it affects negatively. Any station owner/employee. I mean if a station has to spend 10's of thousands of dollars over the 4 months to maintain old equipment, 2 separate signals, and fund all that ridiculous advertising, what's to say that station won't cut jobs to make their budgets?
> 
> My own personal gripe (I realize somewhat rare) is that I have a digital signal I should be able to get, completely blocked by the ridiculousy powerful adjacent analog signal. I've been waiting 2 years for this switch to figure out if my situation would improve by the analog signal going away. I guess I'll have to wait more before deciding on getting new equipment.


The delay is VOLUNTARY. Any station that wants to make the change on the original date is free to do so. If they choose to continue the analog signal then that's their choice. This is from an AP story:

"But Rockefeller managed to ease some of these concerns by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June deadline if they choose and by permitting public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum that has been promised to them as soon as it becomes available."

By the way, the Senate vote was unanimous. For those who think it was solely a Democratic plan, *EVERY* Republican senator (who voted) voted in favor of it.


----------



## scooper

Time to vote against every single Senator, doesn't matter what party they claim.


----------



## MikeW

Here in Tucson, one channel will be moving its digital channel back to its VHF channel. I was looking forward to the change just to see what I'd need to do with my gear when they make that switch. It would be much easier to swap my antenna in the attic during February (attic temp about 68 degrees) than in June (attic temp about 105).


----------



## scooper

And yes - I want it to happen on time - I have the vast majority of my stations playing fruit basket upset for their digitals to get to their final assignments. I want to be able to do one final scan Feb 18 and it be over with.


----------



## Jim5506

A pox on both their houses.


----------



## James Long

Bob Coxner said:


> By the way, the Senate vote was unanimous. For those who think it was solely a Democratic plan, *EVERY* Republican senator (who voted) voted in favor of it.


I believe that is an error in the article. We will know more when the congressional record is available.

The only record vote shown on the Senate website for today was "Confirmation Timothy F. Geithner, of New York, to be Secretary of the Treasury". It is possible that the bill got "unanimous consent" which is more of a "without objection" vote than "100 to 0 in favor".


----------



## turey22

i think that it was a good idea since a lot of people are not ready


----------



## James Long

turey22 said:


> i think that it was a good idea since a lot of people are not ready


If 5% of DirecTV customers have no clue what DLB is would it be fair to cease the implementation of DLB on all future DirecTV DVRs?

We're talking a small group of people. More converter box coupons have EXPIRED without use than there are households that are not ready. The fix is to get the coupons into the hands of consumers and get the boxes into their homes. Any delay that prevents conversion to digital is unneeded.


----------



## Davenlr

Our PBS station (analog and digital) are off air, while tower crews remove the channel 2 analog and channel 5 digital antennas from the tower in order to install a channel 7 digital antenna...which they wont be able to fire up now, on Feb 17th, because there is our ABC station using channel 7 until the shutdown. So no PBS for us until either ABC shuts down early, or June whatever... Fools all in Washington. Even the FCC was against an extension.


----------



## Incog-Neato

And 6.234 million still won't 4 months from now.


davring said:


> 6.5 million people still don't have a clue...


----------



## Incog-Neato

Isn't that what they already did! :lol:


James Long said:


> If 5% of DirecTV customers have no clue what DLB is would it be fair to cease the implementation of DLB on all future DirecTV DVRs?


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Just ask folks you know at work... See how many are educated on this issue.

For folks in the greatest country in the world, a lot our fellow citizens are pretty clueless about anything technical. dbstalk.com isn't exactly a good snapshot of the US Citizenry.


----------



## Kenkong586

jhollan2 said:


> In the meantime, broadcasting suffers because the stations are forced to broadcast on machines they didnt repair


This part could prove to be very true. Many stations have been neglecting regular maintainance on their analog transmitters hoping to just run them into the ground. I'd guess more stations that not will ride into June on fumes from their analog transmitters (which are VERY expensive to upkeep). The 4 stations I work at have had to keep their analog transmitters below 90% total power in order to ensure they would make it through to February. I can forsee a lot of budget replanning for many stations.


----------



## BWELL316

Here in Maine we have a Fox station that is run on a budget of bottle returns. They have not offered their HD channel OTA because of one reason or another (although the local TW and D*TV have it available in HD) and they had been saying that would make th emove on Feb 17th. I e-mailed the program director to see how this affects that move (do they still go through with it or wait), and will be interested in the reply. I am willing to bet there are other stations around the country in similar situations. 

While I understand that 6.5 mil were going to get nailed in this, I do not understand (outside of getting more money for funding) what this 4 month delay will do. You cannot possibly spend any more money on advertising to get people to understand. My mom, who has never had cable or sat a day in her life, is one of the many who would have been left out in the cold by this, but luckily I took the initiative to get that coupon for her last year and get everything in place for her and everyone in else in my family in the same situation. Maybe some of us that know what is going on could take 10 minutes here and there to help a family member we may not realize could be affected by this, or a neighbor or something, we could make some headway in this. Obviously this whole forum isn't going to wind down that 6.5 mil, but if we all did something for someone, maybe we can actually see the June 12th date become a reality and not a delay.


----------



## Lord Vader

GaryPotter said:


> And Congress scratches their butts and wonders why no one has faith in them...
> 
> A few idiots from Dumbbell, Chicago are too stupid to read what's right in front of their face complain, and we all have to suffer. It really doesn't take much to get Congress to shiver, shreak, and wring their hands in agony. God help this country.


Hey! Watch what you say about Chicagoans! We ain't dumb; just corrupt. There's a difference, you know!


----------



## HIPAR

I think it's a good idea because many 'small time' stations aren't ready.

I think it's a good idea because the new administration is now responsible for getting us all ready.

I think it's a good idea because I'll have some over the air TV here in NE Pa for a few more months.

It's really a done deal. No congress person can do himself political harm by voting yes for this action .. save for a few lost votes from the TV enthusiasts.

--- CHAS


----------



## Lord Vader

Bob Coxner said:


> The voucher program ran out of money. There are several million people on the waiting list for vouchers. Just because not everyone has the bucks to spend on tv tech like most forum members doesn't mean the less fortunate don't matter. Let's try to have some compassion.
> 
> As for "morons", there are millions of seniors who barely understand how analog tv works, much less digital. A bit more time to help them convert is not such a burden.


There's much more to this than trying to placate some inconvenienced people, Bob. The delay will be an enormous financial strain on many stations and even a potential harm to some businesses. This far outweighs Granny Podunk in Ames, Iowa not being able to see _The Price is Right_ every morning on her rabbit ears.

The damage to many companies who were counting on using newly relinquished frequencies come Feb. 17th is not good.



HIPAR said:


> I think it's a good idea because many 'small time' stations aren't ready.


 Fewer than you think, and the financial harm that many will face with this delay will not be good.


----------



## mopzo

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Just ask folks you know at work... See how many are educated on this issue.
> 
> For folks in the greatest country in the world, a lot our fellow citizens are pretty clueless about anything technical. dbstalk.com isn't exactly a good snapshot of the US Citizenry.


Some fellow citizens are pretty clueless about anything.


----------



## Fontano

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Just ask folks you know at work... See how many are educated on this issue.
> 
> For folks in the greatest country in the world, a lot our fellow citizens are pretty clueless about anything technical. dbstalk.com isn't exactly a good snapshot of the US Citizenry.


We really shouldn't go down that road.
People specialize in different areas, and honestly Analog vs Digital is gets pretty technical in discussion.

The vast majority of people just want it to work.

You could say the same about GSM vs CDMA, heck a lot of "geeks" don't really know the difference to that one.

I may know how to wire a network, and how to setup a Digital Converter box. But I would be up a creek without a paddle, if I had to replace the fuel injector in my car.

This greatest country in the world, is a country of people that work together and specialize. Trading one skill for another, since no one can know it all.

Ask most people at my work, and they are pretty upto date on the digital conversion. But most of them have long since abandonded arial/analog antennas and subscribe to an provider service.

Hopefully in a lot of those cities, where it is "you go first" so we can then get to our permanent slot, they go ahead with their plans as honestly, those are the ones that are getting really hosed by this delay.

The coupon's runing out of money. Honestly, I think the coupon structure was the STUPIDEST thing in the world. The government should have had a bidding processes. Selected one or two companies to make a box, that people could have gotten for free (the government paid a FIXED amount).

Or some variation of that. No administration company to administer the coupons. No coupons to mail and get lost. Raw numbers, fixed amounts.

Other companies (and even those that won the bid) would have been more then welcome to make more advanced boxes and sell them for what ever price they wanted to.

And the mornoic notion, that we should now (as a taxpaying public) start to pay for new TV's. That is nuts, and I don't think enough in the government would want to swallow that pill to make it even a viable discussion.

It is not the end of the world. Some stations and areas ARE going to be inconvienced by this. I agree with others, 4 months from now. You are not going to see any major change in that 6 million figure.


----------



## Fontano

Lord Vader said:


> There's much more to this than trying to placate some inconvenienced people, Bob. The delay will be an enormous financial strain on many stations and even a potential harm to some businesses. This far outweighs Granny Podunk in Ames, Iowa not being able to see _The Price is Right_ every morning on her rabbit ears.
> 
> The damage to many companies who were counting on using newly relinquished frequencies come Feb. 17th is not good.
> 
> Fewer than you think, and the financial harm that many will face with this delay will not be good.


Only a matter of time, before the first lawsuits are filed.

I paid $X amount to be ready for Feb 17, but I could have saved $Y if I delayed like others have.


----------



## DustoMan

Just ****ing shoot me. What a load of crap. There has been plenty of warning about the DTV switch. Just go with it, the rest of the people will catch up. TV is not the ONLY way to get emergency broadcasts.


----------



## NickIndy

The TV stations should just switch anyway. And if we're worried about some people not even being aware of the switch....nothing like hours and hours of tv snow to help them figure it out faster.


----------



## inkahauts

davring said:


> 6.5 million people still don't have a clue...


And they won't get a clue no matter what anyone does until they turn of the analogue and MAKE them care...


----------



## roadrunner1782

I figured the date was going to be pushed back, but four months is ridiculous! I can understand maybe an extra 30 days but to me that's even a stretch!:nono2: They should have just gone with the Feb. 17th date because now those clueless people are even more clueless!!!!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Bob Coxner said:


> The voucher program ran out of money. There are several million people on the waiting list for vouchers. Just because not everyone has the bucks to spend on tv tech like most forum members doesn't mean the less fortunate don't matter. Let's try to have some compassion.


Sorry, but my compassion is instead reserved for the people who can't pay their rent, electricity, buy food, and medical bills. Broken-record-mode-enabled... anyone who can't afford the $40 converter needs more help than they are getting. Pacifying folks with free TV then they can't pay their electricity, rent, etc. hasn't really helped those people much at all.


----------



## RAD

It this passes I'm going to be curious how many stations opt to shut down their analog signal before June. Are they more worried about loosing part of their views or want to save money by not having duplicate facilities. They may just feel that the people that haven't taken steps to continue to receive their signal may not be the demographics that they are trying to go for and prefer to save the money.


----------



## dervari

Bob Coxner said:


> The voucher program ran out of money. There are several million people on the waiting list for vouchers. Just because not everyone has the bucks to spend on tv tech like most forum members doesn't mean the less fortunate don't matter. Let's try to have some compassion.


I'm sorry, watching Oprah or American Idol is not a right. If someone can't afford $40 for a DTV converter box, they have more issues than missing Survivor.

Personally, I was against the whole converter voucher program from the start.


----------



## HIPAR

RAD said:


> It this passes I'm going to be curious how many stations opt to shut down their analog signal before June. ..


It's my understanding they will still be allowed to do that if there are no channel juggling or interference issues. But, the stations in the major DMAs will most likely stay on analog channels until the final second and that will complicate transition plans. 

--- CHAS


----------



## Mark Holtz

If you are upset as I am about the senate passing S.328, just remember... ONLY the Senate passed the bill. It has yet to come up for a vote in the House. If you are screaming mad about this, go to www.congress.org, find your reps, and fire off a nice yet polite letter referencing S.328. (Because of the amount of mail received, it is important to reference the bill number.)


----------



## HIPAR

Mark Holtz said:


> If you are upset as I am about the senate passing S.328, just remember... ONLY the Senate passed the bill. It has yet to come up for a vote in the House. If you are screaming mad about this, go to www.congress.org, find your reps, and fire off a nice yet polite letter referencing S.328. (Because of the amount of mail received, it is important to reference the bill number.)


Certainly that is a prerequisite for '*****ing rights' but realistically we are swimming upstream on this one because it's not issue politically abrasive to the general population.

--- CHAS


----------



## Brandon428

Slowing down progress because of ignorance is just stupid to me.


----------



## dennispap

turey22 said:


> i think that it was a good idea since a lot of people are not ready


You must be joking.:lol:


----------



## Fontano

Brandon428 said:


> Slowing down progress because of ignorance is just stupid to me.


What progress is being slowed down?

Other then the stations that now need to juggle their changes to different stations (which sucks).

What blockbuster progress in wireless communication/transmissions is being slowed down here?

Most stations are already broadcasting their digital signals already.

I personally think delaying it was bad choice, as I am one of those IT guys that have gone through conversions before. Send a hundred emails, verifying what people need after the conversion. But ultimatley have to pull the plug, deal with the headaches for a few weeks and then move on.

Which ultimately is going to have to happen in this case.
Flip the switch, deal with the headaches and then move on.


----------



## dennispap

Kenkong586 said:


> This part could prove to be very true. Many stations have been neglecting regular maintainance on their analog transmitters hoping to just run them into the ground. I'd guess more stations that not will ride into June on fumes from their analog transmitters (which are VERY expensive to upkeep). The 4 stations I work at have had to keep their analog transmitters below 90% total power in order to ensure they would make it through to February. I can forsee a lot of budget replanning for many stations.


Shouldnt be any changes in your or any stations plans.The delay is voluntary. Any station that wants to make the change on the original date is free to do so. If any station chooses to continue the analog signal then that's their choice.
My new orleans fox 8 shut off their analog on dec 22. You dont think they are going to restart their analog.
Even worse with all of this is this is the 2nd time the date has been changed by the govt. Now people wont believe the new date either.You can only lie/change your story so many times then people dont believe you anymore.Especially when you made the stations run a million times a day that the date was Feb 17, 2009!!


----------



## kevinwmsn

I agree that they shouldn't delay this. 1) The 6.5 million or whatever it is won't be get much lower in another 4 months. 2) This deadline has been known about for years espicially the past few months. 3) TV isn't a right, neither is broadband internet. 4) Government mismanaged the coupon fund by giving out everyone coupons while most didn't need it.


----------



## ebbtb17

the only way these people are going "pass go" and get a converter is when their television goes dark. That's the only way!!! This is nucking futts people!!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Last warning. Infractions will be issued hereafter for any political discussion in this thread. On this forum there are no discussions of "vested interests". Nor do we have a sense of political humor.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Been a busy night... I'm just now hearing the "good news"...  I have to say I'm quite tired of all the commercials about this... And I also think that if they're (the viewers) not ready by now, they're not going to be ready by June 12th... And unfortunately, a lot of stations are ready to make the switch... I sure hope the ones here go ahead and do so...


----------



## Brandon428

Fontano said:


> What progress is being slowed down?


 To me its just a representation that the

people of our country are lazy and don't want or care to embrace technology.

It slows down everything to me. More money wasted because people don't

want responsibility.

Perhaps,I just hate waiting.


----------



## tzphotos.com

After Feb 17th, Analog broadcasts should be made Virtually Un-Watchable. What I mean by this is put the programing in a small window and information about the analog shutdown in large print around the Picture-in-Picture.:biggthump

This would get the point across to the analog viewers.


----------



## James Long

tzphotos.com said:


> After Feb 17th, Analog broadcasts should be made Virtually Un-Watchable. What I mean by this is put the programing in a small window and information about the analog shutdown in large print around the Picture-in-Picture.:biggthump
> 
> This would get the point across to the analog viewers.












The regular digital feed is not postage stamped. WIPB is reportedly doing this 24/7.


----------



## eudoxia

jamieh1 said:


> In four months it will be the same thing. Just go ahead and switch.


Exactly the procrastinators that are not ready now, will not be ready in 4 months.


----------



## thestaton

I don't see the big deal... So what some old people out in the sticks won't get to watch TV for a few days. People need to get away from the TV for a little while *sheesh.


----------



## jacksonm30354

Remember we were supposed to switch to metric in the 70's...
Will the digital switch go the way of the metric switch?


----------



## Tom Robertson

While this bill does have to go before the House and President Obama, my sense is the bill was reviewed by leaders of both parties in both House and Senate before officially being introduced in the Senate. 

Therefore, unfortunately, I expect quick passage in the House. And eventual signing by President Obama. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## samhevener

dennispap said:


> Shouldnt be any changes in your or any stations plans.The delay is voluntary. Any station that wants to make the change on the original date is free to do so. If any station chooses to continue the analog signal then that's their choice.
> 
> You are incorrect. The senate bill, the house bill may be changed, states stations that release frequencies that are going to be used by public safety can shut down early. Public safety is only 18% of the total frequency being released and, I think, would only be 18% of those stations that are now broadcasting analog on channels 51-69. Any station that is now broadcasting analog on channels 2-50 can not shut down early. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147758


----------



## Juppers

The only reason I think they should delay is for public safety. I can understand delaying it out of winter time, but not til June. As for delaying because so many people haven't converted yet is BS. Ignorance is no excuse. It doesn't fly with the government when you "forgot" to pay your taxes, "didn't know" something was illegal, so on and so forth. The digital transition should be no different.


----------



## braven

love that tv said:


> relax!! why is everyone so angry about this? really? how does this effect any of you?


Four more months of "Are you prepared for the DTV transition?" commercials. I am beyond sick of them.


----------



## smiddy

Ah man, this is getting a little nutty. This is like extending a pregnancy, ask the mother how she's doing and she'll tell you, she's ready for the end. Staying pregnant is just misserable.


----------



## thomas_d92

I read the article and stations that want to shut down there analog signal on Feb 17 can and do not have to wait till June. the bill states that all stations do not have to shut down analog on Feb 17. It does not say they have to stay on the air.


----------



## Italia

After hearing every flipping night for the past two months, on my local news channel...."just a reminder, the DTV transition is near"....I'm going to help the government out. I'm going to go door to door across the country to explain what everyone should know already. Then, after they refuse to purchase the box, I'll move on to the next house. But then, when the next date comes around for the DTV transition....all of these people will be upset! Whether this is today, tomorrow, one year, five years...it just doesn't matter. However, I'm sure the government is trying to avoid any type of lawsuits.


----------



## PCampbell

Money or not the pepole not ready now will do nothing and be the same pepole not ready in June,


----------



## mystic7

eudoxia said:


> Beyond the whole screw up running out of money for converter box vouchers, this is bad news for many TV stations who have planned this out for years and cannot afford to maintain already obsolete transmitter equipment.


Not sure if this is mentioned elsewhere in the thread but I read that the delay will cost PBS 22 million bucks.


----------



## Ken S

GaryPotter said:


> The issue is that it was a hard date. It was said a million times that this was when the transition would happen. Now, at the very last minute, they decide to muddy the waters and change it, thereby completely ruining the plans that just about everyone made. It does absolutely nothing at all to help anyone and only makes everyone involved look stupid.


The plans just about everyone made? Who is everyone? What plans have been ruined? The stations that want to shut down their analog signal can do so if they wish.

People forget about how many of the coupons expired because there were no converters available on the market or they were sold out everywhere during the first few months.

There are too many people that didn't get converters yet...what's wrong with a few months to help them out?


----------



## Ken S

GaryPotter said:


> What really gets my goat is just the fact that so many people are applying for that coupon in the first place. I bet 90% of them could easily buy one with their own money.


I'll bet you could live without some of the tax deductions you take....how about skipping them?


----------



## leww37334

The real problem, is that the same people who aren't ready in Feb will not be ready in Jun either.

We need to go ahead and do this, we could have the problems fixed by Jun easily.

Everyone forgets that the reason for doing this was to free up bandwidth for emergency responders. Every day we delay means another day where emergency responders will not be able to communicate in a real emergency.


----------



## scooper

Posted on Thomas - http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.328:

And yes - stations CAN shutdown analog early.


----------



## tonymus

love that tv said:


> relax!! why is everyone so angry about this? really? how does this effect any of you?


How about this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28863917/

That doesn't count the additional costs to broadcast networks, which is ultimately for paid by consumers in the form of higher product prices.

Conjecture here, but I'd bet Grandma already has her Wal-Mart digital converter box, the ads have been on for more than a year, and the program to fund the project only recently ran out of money.


----------



## dervari

Juppers said:


> The only reason I think they should delay is for public safety. I can understand delaying it out of winter time, but not til June.


That's what AM/FM radios are for.


----------



## lflorack

Bob Coxner said:


> The voucher program ran out of money. There are several million people on the waiting list for vouchers. Just because not everyone has the bucks to spend on tv tech like most forum members doesn't mean the less fortunate don't matter. Let's try to have some compassion.
> 
> As for "morons", there are millions of seniors who barely understand how analog tv works, much less digital. A bit more time to help them convert is not such a burden.


I normally have sympathy for older folks etc. However, in this case, this has been a known date for a very, very long time. Deals have been made for the old frequencies, etc and warnings have been plentiful and constant about the need to change. Four more months will do absolutely nothing to fix the problem with those who do not or cannot listen. They will be no more prepared in four months than they are now.


----------



## fluffybear

Bob Coxner said:


> The voucher program ran out of money. There are several million people on the waiting list for vouchers. Just because not everyone has the bucks to spend on tv tech like most forum members doesn't mean the less fortunate don't matter. Let's try to have some compassion.
> 
> As for "morons", there are millions of seniors who barely understand how analog tv works, much less digital. A bit more time to help them convert is not such a burden.


Bob, I would agree with you if congress had just set the date within the last few weeks and people did not have plenty of time to convert. The digital transition date was set some 5 years ago and has been promoted constantly for well over a year.

Yes, the "voucher" program ran out of money but I seem to recall when the program was announced, people were informed the estimated number of converter boxes this program would cover and that the program was 'first come - first serve'.

Sadly, I believe this delay is only the first of many to come. I am just waiting for some fathead to suggest we wait until June, 2010 and have census workers pass out "vouchers".


----------



## ercjncprdtv

The confusing part that many are referring to:

(a) PERMISSIVE EARLY TERMINATION UNDER EXISTING REQUIREMENTS.
—Nothing in this Act is intended
to prevent a licensee of a television broadcast station from
terminating the broadcasting of such station’s analog tele
vision signal (and continuing to broadcast exclusively in
the digital television service) prior to the date established
by law under section 3002(b) of the Digital Television
Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005 for termination
of all licenses for full-power television stations in the ana
log television service (as amended by section 2 of this Act)
so long as such prior termination is conducted in accord
ance with the Federal Communications Commission’s re
quirements in effect on the date of enactment of this Act,
including the flexible procedures established in the Matter
of Third Periodic Review of the Commission’s Rules and
Policies Affecting the Conversion to Digital Television


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The latest bill fixes the date at June 12, 2009.

I guess that after 5 years of national mailings, TV commercials, radio spots, billboards, and other announcements the conversion was coming, not to mention mostly-subsidizing it for a number of people, we need to appease the procrastinators (many of which are likely watching their Black & White sets with rabbit ears on top).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Doug's point from a few posts back is a big one... broadcasters may choose to turn off their analog signals when it suits them to do so, from what I'm getting. So while the official sunset may be in June, any broadcaster who is no longer concerned about analog broadcasting in its market is free to stop spending money on an analog signal. 

That's what I'm getting out of this.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Doug's point from a few posts back is a big one... broadcasters may choose to turn off their analog signals when it suits them to do so, from what I'm getting. So while the official sunset may be in June, any broadcaster who is no longer concerned about analog broadcasting in its market is free to stop spending money on an analog signal.
> 
> That's what I'm getting out of this.


Didn't see that provision in the online version of the bill....but I cruised through it pretty fast.

That would indeed be welcome news, as a number of stations are all ready and able to make the switch. My guess the big cities will hold off, since they likely have the most people who "aren't ready".


----------



## ATARI

tzphotos.com said:


> After Feb 17th, Analog broadcasts should be made Virtually Un-Watchable. What I mean by this is put the programing in a small window and information about the analog shutdown in large print around the Picture-in-Picture.:biggthump
> 
> This would get the point across to the analog viewers.


2/17/2009 -- make all analog broadcast B&W -- that should get their attention.


----------



## ATARI

eudoxia said:


> Exactly the procrastinators that are not ready now, will not be ready in 4 months.


Exactly!


----------



## davidatl14

Gotta Love it. 

Being stupid is coming back into vogue.

Now we can be rewarded for both stupidity and laziness.

Happy days are here again.:nono2:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Didn't see that provision in the online version of the bill....but I cruised through it pretty fast.
> 
> That would indeed be welcome news, as a number of stations are all ready and able to make the switch. My guess the big cities will hold off, since they likely have the most people who "aren't ready".


From the MSNBC Article: 


> But Rockefeller managed to ease some of these concerns by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June deadline if they choose and by permitting public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum that has been promised to them as soon as it becomes available.


I'll look through the bill and try to find the exact language.


----------



## ATARI

Ken S said:


> The plans just about everyone made? Who is everyone? What plans have been ruined? The stations that want to shut down their analog signal can do so if they wish.
> 
> People forget about how many of the coupons expired because there were no converters available on the market or they were sold out everywhere during the first few months.
> 
> There are too many people that didn't get converters yet...what's wrong with a few months to help them out?


I always wondered why the couplon expiration dates weren't all set to 2/17/2009. Anyone know?


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> Doug's point from a few posts back is a big one... broadcasters may choose to turn off their analog signals when it suits them to do so, from what I'm getting. So while the official sunset may be in June, any broadcaster who is no longer concerned about analog broadcasting in its market is free to stop spending money on an analog signal.
> 
> That's what I'm getting out of this.


Exactly .. so what happens if every single station in America decides to turn off the analog signal? .. Heck, even if it's just in some areas or some channels we now officially have 2 days .. February 17 and June 12 .. Mr. Procrastinator will start thinking June 12 (even if the Bill doesn't pass) and when their station sunsets on February 17 they'll still be hosed .. and mad.

It totally boggles the mind that we're even talking about this.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Didn't see that provision in the online version of the bill....but I cruised through it pretty fast.





Stuart Sweet said:


> I'll look through the bill and try to find the exact language.


The text was posted here


----------



## ATARI

Big media is scared sh*tless that millions of households won't have converter boxes installed by the Feb. 17th date, which, coincidentally, is during one of the "sweeps weeks" for broadcasters. Millions of eyeballs not able to watch TV will mean millions in lost advertising revenue in a time when TV is already showing declining viewership among the more coveted demographics. Broadcasters prefer putting off the deadline till the beginning of summer when most everything on TV are reruns and viewership is at its lowest.


----------



## cb7214

doesn't matter when this is done now or later people will be screaming not fair because people aren't ready


----------



## waynebtx

How many years have they known this was going to happen and still not ready wow


----------



## sfmartin

Oh, WAIT! Let's introduce a bill in the Senate to postpone the Superbowl two weeks 'cause some of the players don't feel they're ready.


----------



## tzphotos.com

jacksonm30354 said:


> Remember we were supposed to switch to metric in the 70's...
> Will the digital switch go the way of the metric switch?


Don't get me started on the missed chance to go metric!:nono2:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm no attorney but it seems to me if you were planning to shut down on 2/17 and you still want to plan to do that, you can. If you want to read the text of Senate 328, as passed yesterday: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:s.00328:


----------



## Mindhaz

I think there is a bigger issue that is being ignored. I live outside of Nashville. Over a year ago, I installed an antenna to get the digital stations. I live far enough out that analog was never an option. The antenna I installed was of the "UHF only" variety as the stations moved from VHF to UHF.

Channel 2 (ABC) - 27
Channel 4 (NBC) - 10
Channel 5 (CBS) - 56
Channel 8 (PBS) - 46
Channel 17 (FOX) - 15
There are others

I get all of the channels fine with the antenna I have. However, if you look at antenna web, 5 is moving back to 5 and 8 is moving back to 8 "post transition". These are VHF. My antenna might not pick them up. This makes sense for current analog users. The antenna they currently have will work with the new stations and a converter box or capable TV. But, using this same reasoning, a person with VHF rabbit ears might lose channel 2 not because of digital capability, but because they don't have a UHF antenna to pull in the new signal.

I do have DirecTv with the local channels. I put up the antenna to pull in "Tornado Warnings" during severe weather when the satellite likes to fade. It also allows me to watch the two NFL games on separate TVs in my bonus room while having a ST game or the Red Zone channel up on the main screen.

I think there is a lot more confusion than most people realize. I get these transition questions all the time. I'm not sure I have good answers. I think the best course of action is to turn them off and let everyone deal with the fallout.


----------



## scooper

Stuart Sweet said:


> From the MSNBC Article:
> 
> I'll look through the bill and try to find the exact language.


The bill just had languauge that substituted June 12,2009 for Febuary 17,2009, and other fluff that most of us weren't too concerned about (funding oncoupons, tweaking the coupon program, etc.)


----------



## MudMover

love that tv said:


> relax!! why is everyone so angry about this? really? how does this effect any of you?


How does this AFFECT ME? I'll tell you....WAFF was supposed to boost power at the same time as the transition....I'm assuming they won't be able to since the new channel allocations won't go into affect. As a result...I still drop out on NBC HD due to low power strength. 48KW to 384KW is a substantial boost....now I have to wait until June. Or I have to go buy a amp....instead of folks taking the initiative and buying their own converters....


----------



## Bob Coxner

Mark Holtz said:


> If you are upset as I am about the senate passing S.328, just remember... ONLY the Senate passed the bill. It has yet to come up for a vote in the House. If you are screaming mad about this, go to www.congress.org, find your reps, and fire off a nice yet polite letter referencing S.328. (Because of the amount of mail received, it is important to reference the bill number.)


The vote in the House is tentatively scheduled for today. Better move fast.


----------



## robmadden1

Listen everyone SWEEPS WEEK IS NOT IN FEBUARY THIS YEAR its in March because of the change over's original date.


----------



## Pepster

ATARI said:


> I always wondered why the couplon expiration dates weren't all set to 2/17/2009. Anyone know?


Theoretically, it's 90 days from when they're mailed and it took mines over a week in the snail mail system to arrive. Mines arrived on Saturday and they expire on 4/10. My mailing date was 1/12 according to the website when I signed up which would have given me a little more than 30 days to redeem my coupon rather than the full 90 days had the 2/17 date held up.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I just sent a message to my representative through his home page... let's hope his staffers are working hard today.


----------



## br408408

Most the 6.5 million people that are not ready are probably procrastanators. In 4 month there will be 6.4999 million people not ready.


----------



## 4HiMarks

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My guess the big cities will hold off, since they likely have the most people who "aren't ready".


I think it will be exactly opposite. IMO, big cities, with smaller lots, apartment buildings, etc. are more likely to have much higher cable penetration, and also have a higher income level more able to afford cable and satellite. In rural areas where it was never economical to run cable between houses that are miles apart, and incomes are low, more people rely on OTA.

The *number* of people who "aren't ready" in big cities might be higher, but the *percentage* of a station's audience is probably much lower. That is what they are going to look at.

"If we cut off now, we lose a few percent of our audience, but we save $xxx thousands by not having to transmit two signals. Overall, bottom line increases. Flip the switch."


----------



## SParker

The NAB is a strong lobby group. I'm surprised they aren't fighting tooth and nail against this since most stations are against it. The Senate pulled a real stupid move especially with all the ads running. Will they dub over the dates in the commercials? Also June 12th is a Friday, way to go idiot Senators!


----------



## bnwrx

You know. I'm old enough to remember the days when not every household even HAD a TV!! Technology moves along and as a consumer you have to move along with it or be left out of the loop. Its just the way it has always been. When color TV first started, it was years before all households had one. For a few dollars ($40) those supposed homes who do not have a converter can get one. I'll bet that come June there will still be cries from people about not being ready for the switch. Lost in all of this are the millions of dollars spent by local Fire and Police depts. on new equipment to take advantage of the new radio spectrums they will have to better communicate with each other. Now everthing goes on hold till June and we have to keep watching those damn commercials about the converter boxes!! Just my 2 cents


----------



## Pepster

Bob Coxner said:


> The vote in the House is tentatively scheduled for today. Better move fast.


I just turned on C-Span (House). The three items listed for 12:00 today are, W*age Discrimination*, *Economic Stimulus Debate* & *Delay of Digital TV Transition.*


----------



## Stuart Sweet

SParker said:


> The NAB is a strong lobby group. I'm surprised they aren't fighting tooth and nail against this since most stations are against it. The Senate pulled a real stupid move especially with all the ads running. Will they dub over the dates in the commercials? Also June 12th is a Friday, way to go idiot Senators!


I don't know what they'll do with the commercials... this has been a real drain on broadcasters because all that commercial time could have been sold.


----------



## bobukcat

tzphotos.com said:


> Don't get me started on the missed chance to go metric!:nono2:


Yes, it was actually passed as a "guidance" all the way back in the late 19th century and several other times since then (most recently the 70s). Because no hard date was ever set it's never happened and in fact we've lost just about all momentum it ever had. It hurts American businesses every day and drives up costs of products from all countries that are sold here. That's my complaint with this delay, a hard date was set, then it was moved and now it's moving again, only this time less than one month before said deadline.

As for the arguments that stations have the option of shutting off their Analog broadcast on the 17th, there are still many that can't transition to their new digital spectrum until others in their area shut their analog off. If I'm running a station I don't see a compelling argument for making the switch a two part effort.


----------



## n3ntj

The DTV switch delay is just about to become law..

Here we go again.. the dumbing down of America continues..


----------



## Stuart Sweet

To go very quickly off topic, the fact is that we are metric all the way to the end user. Science, technology, manufacturing, is all done to metric standards and the final product is sold in the English system. 

To get back on topic, I await a statement from any broadcaster who says he will continue spending money to reach the approximately 1% of his market who probably does not watch television habitually anyway.


----------



## JLucPicard

(...donning my asbestos suit...)

First I'll say, planners at the TV stations would have to plan for a February 17 hard date, but if any of them didn't also consider what they would do in the event of a delay, that would seem to me to be VERY short-sighted planning on their part. I'm sure the majority of them have already had contingency plans ready whether that meant switching on 2/17 anyway or working with/around the delay.

Secondly, I agree with the poster who already worked with those in his family to make sure they were ready. I, too, made sure the couple of people in my family who would need to requested coupons, then bought them boxes when they got them. However, there are a lot of people who do not have someone looking out for them like that and may be, in fact, rather clueless.

I work at a non-profit service organization, and they have been asking employees if we come across anyone who has a coupon they will not be using and would like to donate it (not a tax deduction, by the way ), they are trying to help people make the transition and could use the help. I would imagine that there are similar things going on with other service/community organizations as well. And it isn't just the elderly, it could be low income families with children, etc. (sorry, compassion on my sleeve somethimes).

Yes, there are some who won't even make an attempt to be ready by June. There are others (as so eloquently laid out by someone in an earlier post ) who may have trouble even affording their utilities, etc., but these are people that could be helped by the delay.

That being said, come on, people, get off your butts!!! 

It's like suffering through MONTHS of campaign ads, finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with Nov 2 on the horizon, and still almost THREE MONTHS later hearing about the senate race every day! ENOUGH!!!!


----------



## fluffybear

ATARI said:


> 2/17/2009 -- make all analog broadcast B&W -- that should get their attention.


While I like this idea, I was thinking more in the way of every 5 minutes, they show a screen for 30 seconds with the message:

YOUR TV is not ready for the Digital Transition!

If you would like to see this show in it's entirety & without these messages, you need to act NOW!

It might also help if one of the networks (let us say NBC) request their affiliates to start early. February 1, 2009 sounds like a good date. My guess is if this happens a couple of times during the Super Bowl Pre-game show, the number of households not ready for the transition will be down by over 50% by kick-off


----------



## James Long

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm no attorney but it seems to me if you were planning to shut down on 2/17 and you still want to plan to do that, you can. If you want to read the text of Senate 328, as passed yesterday: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:s.00328:


The issue would be the priority ... can and may are two different issues.

See the examples posted earlier. Does changing the date prohibit WANE-TV from going to full power digital and WBBM from moving to the better channel 12?

For these stations (and MANY others) digtal transition is more than just turning off an analog transmitter. It requires other stations to go along with the plan.

I need to put my "lawyer brain" on and read it again ... but I don't see a protection for stations changing to digital. Just that vague language that the FCC is going to have to figure out the meaning of.

GPO Version (PDF)


----------



## jodavis

No Matter what is done as far as delay or warnings there is a group of people who won't get off their butts until their TV actually stops working. Flip the switch now while everyone is ready. I can think of several businesses that have made preparations for the Feb 17th date (Broadcasters, Retailers, Public Safety Orgs, and Wireless Carriers). It's not fair to the companies that bought the spectrum to delay.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

ATARI said:


> Big media is scared sh*tless that millions of households won't have converter boxes installed by the Feb. 17th date, which, coincidentally, is during one of the "sweeps weeks" for broadcasters. Millions of eyeballs not able to watch TV will mean millions in lost advertising revenue in a time when TV is already showing declining viewership among the more coveted demographics. Broadcasters prefer putting off the deadline till the beginning of summer when most everything on TV are reruns and viewership is at its lowest.


First, the "Feb book" was moved to March this year, because of the 2/17 date.

Also, there are now un-budgeted expenses to run analog longer. That may cost even more jobs (great government induced "stimulus", huh?)...Allbritton had a big purge Monday. Gannett has implemented forced furloughs, among other broadcast companies that are laying off. Please "google" around and see what's happening.

No, the local broadcasters are NOT fans of the delay. Just call your local stations and ask the management.

The networks, on the other hand, don't care. They own a few stations in only big markets, and have better cash flow.


----------



## KSbugeater

On the bright side, I get to use my analog TVs and my one DVD recorder with a hard-disk but only an analog tuner for another 4 months... also, my big-screen only has an analog tuner built-in so once analog goes away the PIP tuner is worthless...


----------



## ziggy29

Some stations are still planning on shutting down analog "on time" anyway. One of the silver linings about this crappy economy is that businesses are looking for ways to cut costs everywhere, and that may make them more likely to kill one of their signals to save on power costs. That's probably especially true for stations which are moving their digital signal from UHF to VHF.


----------



## LCDSpazz

CBS in Chicagoland is stuck in low band VHF interference hell for another 4 months.


----------



## loudo

It is not like it is a big surprise, we have only know and had a chance to prepare for it for about this for 4 years now. For the past year most TV stations have had programs anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes talking about it. There have been numerous articles in the paper. How much more information do these people need? Some stations have already stopped their analog signals and others are planning to do so soon. 

It won't make any difference putting it off until June. The same handful of procrastinators will still not be ready when June rolls around.


----------



## joblo

From avsforum's Hot Off The Press:



fredfa said:


> * Digital Transition Notes *
> * NAB Gives Full Support to DTV Delay Plan *
> * Wharton praises Senate's unanimous passage of legislation *
> By John Eggerton*, Broadcasting & Cable* Washington Bureau Chief, January 27, 2009
> &#8230;
> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/162805-NAB_Gives_Full_Support_to_DTV_Delay_Plan.php


I think the NAB wants to save its chits for a higher priority issue.

Sorry, folks, but this thing is done. The President wants it; the President's party has a commanding majority in the House; the Senate, which is the chamber where minorities have the power to derail things, has signed on by unanimous consent; and now you have the NAB.

You won't get unanimous consent in the House, but it would take Katrina-level incompetence for the House leadership not to produce a majority at this point.


----------



## dennispap

samhevener said:


> dennispap said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldnt be any changes in your or any stations plans.The delay is voluntary. Any station that wants to make the change on the original date is free to do so. If any station chooses to continue the analog signal then that's their choice.
> 
> You are incorrect. The senate bill, the house bill may be changed, states stations that release frequencies that are going to be used by public safety can shut down early. Public safety is only 18% of the total frequency being released and, I think, would only be 18% of those stations that are now broadcasting analog on channels 51-69. Any station that is now broadcasting analog on channels 2-50 can not shut down early. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147758
> 
> 
> 
> Well the New orleans fox affiliate was broadcasting on analog 8 and they shut down their analog signal Dec 15,2008 and they have said they will not turn their analog broadcast back on.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Be very careful with the political commentary. Snide remarks will be deleted and infractions have been issued.

This is a thread about government actions [strike]a political topic[/strike], so [strike]but[/strike] we can stick to very basic facts about what has happened without political innuendo or commentary.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

My understanding, from sources I cannot quote, is that the NAB's support comes specifically because broadcasters have the option to stop analog broadcasting any time between February and June. I expect that should this pass, we'll see a flood of press releases saying that WXXX (or KXXX) will cease analog on February 17, as planned.


----------



## davidatl14

Sorry, Tom if my comment was too strong, not singling out any certain party, since this seems to have wide acceptance on both sides of the political spectrum.

A pox on both their houses.


----------



## James Long

Stuart Sweet said:


> My understanding, from sources I cannot quote, is that the NAB's support comes specifically because broadcasters have the option to stop analog broadcasting any time between February and June. I expect that should this pass, we'll see a flood of press releases saying that WXXX (or KXXX) will cease analog on February 17, as planned.


Hundreds of local stations have ceased or plan to before February 17th and as this becomes closer to law I expect most of the rest to notify the FCC that February 17th is the end of analog.

I just hope those waiting for another station to cease analog won't be held up.

Three categories of stations:
1) Can leave analog on with no interference/limited interference to digital (800 stations) - post transition digital is on a different channel
2) Can leave analog on and remain on a pre-transition channel with no interference (other than not moving to their post-transition channel)
3) Must have an analog station (someone else's) cease to get their full digital coverage.

Category 3 are the stations I want to see protected. If an analog operation prevents final conversion to digital the analog operation should be shut off.

"Enhanced nightlight" isn't a problem unless it PREVENTS digital conversion.


----------



## LCDSpazz

Stuart Sweet said:


> My understanding, from sources I cannot quote, is that the NAB's support comes specifically because broadcasters have the option to stop analog broadcasting any time between February and June. I expect that should this pass, we'll see a flood of press releases saying that WXXX (or KXXX) will cease analog on February 17, as planned.


So some analog stations will work and others will disappear between Feb 18 and June 12. Holy mass confusion and multiple channel rescans Batman!


----------



## neljtorres

There is a couple of TV Stations here in Puerto Rico that have turned off their Analog signal like WJUA and WSUR! This is stupid because since 2005 they have pushed this back and now watch still on June they are going to be people that will not be prepared!


----------



## dennispap

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28863961/
Per this report......."But Rockefeller managed to ease some of these concerns by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June deadline if they choose and by permitting public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum that has been promised to them as soon as it becomes available."

New FCC filings indicate that some analog stations still plan to cease broadcasting as of 2/17/09, regardless of what Congress decides this week. WTVF-5, Nashville (CBS) plans to end their analog transmission and switch their DTV from ch. 56 to ch. 5.
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=36504

Also, WFWA-39, Fort Wayne, IN (PBS) plans to cease analog broadcasts as of 2/17/09. One reason listed is due to additional costs associated with operating the analog transmitter....."SINCE THE ESTABLISHMENT IN 2005 OF FEBRUARY 17, 2009 AS THE DEADLINE FOR ALL TELEVISION STATIONS TO TERMINATE ANALOG BROADCAST SERVICE, THE STATION HAS PLANNED AND BUDGETED TO TRANSITION AS OF FEBRUARY 17, 2009. CONTINUED ANALOG OPERATION BEYOND THE EXISTING DTV TRANSITION DEADLINE PLACES THE STATION IN FINANCIAL HARDSHIP, INCLUDING UNBUDGETED COSTS FOR MAINTENANCE OF THE ANALOG FACILITY AND ELECTRICAL POWER CONSUMPTION."
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=22108

i think we're likely to hear more comments like the one from WFWA in the coming days.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

We'll see what final product actually becomes law, and how the FCC interprets it.

But, reading the tea leaves, and assuming that the option to end analog at any time after 2/17 remains, for those stations with no conflict, it might create a nice "chicken and egg" scenario.

Let's say a station wants to pull the plug on 2/18...well...what if my competitor(s) stay on analog until 6/12? What will the public perception be? Should I stay on even if I'm forced to cut a position?

I'm willing to guess that the owners/managers in more than a handful of markets will have a private "group chat" and reach a gentleman's agreement deciding when they will all end full-power analog simultaneously.


----------



## Cholly

There have been several posts alluding to older people being clueless about the transition. While this certainly has a grain of truth to it, cluelessness has no age limits one way or another. 
Surely, this is an emotional topic, as is evidenced by the number of posts (and the number of people viewing this thread -- 59 as of the time I'm typing this entry). I believe there has been a knee jerk reaction to the fact that a large number of people are unprepared for digital television, hence the reaction of the president and congress. I also believe that there will still be a large number of people who will be unprepared for digital TV at the end of the delay. It's somewhat similar to the changeover of the FM broadcast band in the late forties with one exception: back then, the number of people who had FM radios was small. Contrast that with today, when the greater majority of households has one or more analog only TV receivers. 
I'm inclined to believe that the majority of people who have only OTA reception are in areas not served by cable or areas where the satellite providers do not provide locals. 
While I appreciate that there are many urban poor who can't afford cable or satellite, I'm not certain that they understand what the DTV transition is all about. How does one reach out to them? Have our churches and public schools done anything to inform them? Has the government done mass mailings to inform the public? Those three approaches would probably be more effective than the myriad of PSA's we've been seeing.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Cholly's right, and I don't think it's fair to characterize people older than you as clueless, just as it's unfair to characterize people younger than you as impudent. It doesn't add anything to the discussion. 

I know that research has been done on the subject of exactly who has been affected. I've read some of it and I'll seek permission to discuss it publicly.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Cholly,

You bring up some great points.

It isn't just older adults who don't know about this, there are other demographics who might not be aware.

It isn't just city poor, there are others who can't or haven't picked a solution. (For instance my sister hadn't as she got caught up in my father's passing, changing her plans to get DIRECTV as her solution.)

I wonder (aloud) if there are large demographics that could be targeted for other means of education such as mass mailings. 

Things to think of...
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I agree that those who still have not addresses the change in their households *do not *fall into a limited or certain demographic set - but in my opinion, there simply is *no excuse *after all these many years of informing the public of the change, that *any *procrastinators should be subsidized further, nor allowed yet more time.

You have to draw the line someplace, and when this all came down, no one seemed to have any problem with the Feb 2009 date given all the lead time.

Until *very* recently, even the converter box subsidy program was moving along fine. It's these last-minute come-aboards that are causing the delay and added costs tied to it.

I am glad, per several posters sharing the added information, that stations can proceed before the June date.


----------



## gbranch

dodge boy said:


> The only morons are the idiots on here crying "foul". You locals will be digital by Feb. They just don't have to shut off the analog channels then. Serious if your locals aren't broadcasting in digital by now, you must be living in that little town "Deliverence" was filmed in.


It *does* affect many of us. Our closest PBS station transmits low power on channel 25 and is not receivable where I live. On Feb 17, they were planning to flash cut to their analog channel 24 using their existing channel 24 top mount antenna with a power increase. But, that is not going to happen now, so, no PBS HD for me until at least June.

Our CW station transmits analog only. They were going to flash cut to a channel currently occupied by our the analog signal of our FOX station in order to use their channel 51 antenna, but again, no CW-HD until June. Not that that is much of a loss.

I don't live in the town where Deliverance was filmed - I just live in a smaller DMA where some of the local stations did not have the resources to invest millions of dollars in new digital equipment. They are being frugal and trying to use existing equipment, and now they will have to wait at least another 4 months because of another government SNAFU.

GSB


----------



## loudo

Cholly said:


> While I appreciate that there are many urban poor who can't afford cable or satellite, I'm not certain that they understand what the DTV transition is all about. How does one reach out to them? Have our churches and public schools done anything to inform them? Has the government done mass mailings to inform the public? Those three approaches would probably be more effective than the myriad of PSA's we've been seeing.


I find it hard to believe that anyone who has a TV set hasn't seen or doesn't know about the transition. I see it every night on the news. Again during the night as ads during shows. In the form of commercials by satellite and cable companies, as banners along the bottom of the screen. In addition to TVs I have seen it on billboards along the highways, as ads in the newspapers, and as ads on radio stations.

I think at this point a mass mailing would be a waste of money to reach a few people who may not know about the change. I don't think having church or school people trying to explain things like this would help. It might confuse them even more unless the people at the school or church were educated on the change.

At this point the major problem is not knowing about the change, it is the resistance to change. There has been a lot of resistance from day one. Many people don't really care about picture quality and their only care is to see a picture. I have had several elderly family members, who know about it but just don't think the change is necessary. It is not necessarily that they can't afford to change, they just don't want to.


----------



## James Long

gbranch said:


> It *does* affect many of us. Our closest PBS station transmits low power on channel 25 and is not receivable where I live. On Feb 17, they were planning to flash cut to their analog channel 24 using their existing channel 24 top mount antenna with a power increase. But, that is not going to happen now, so, no PBS HD for me until at least June.


Hopefully the station will change at will, save themselves the cost of running an analog transmitter and get-r-done.

Until a station announces that they have changed their transition plans from the previously announced February 17th-18th switch status quo is a February switch. There are hundreds of stations that have already filed that they will be off before February 17th (even with the recent nightlight authorization). The trend is stations filing to say they WILL turn off analog on February 17th regardless of congressional action.

Someone will take advantage of the extra four months but I suspect most stations will not. They are ready and it is cheaper to move on to digital than to wait (in most cases).


----------



## Tom Robertson

Another point to consider is historically stations that went with HD news first, got the most viewers immediately, no matter where they stood in the news rankings previously. While it is a skewed analogy, the people who haven't switched yet might not have very much buying power if it is because they can't afford to switch.

Now, there seem to be other demographics with buying power that haven't switched for some reason. That needs further exploration, but likely isn't going to present anything other than a huge run to a *mart for converters. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## scooper

People, from exchanging emails with a couple local TV Engineers - prepare for a cluster, That's all I've got to say...


----------



## samhevener

"But Rockefeller managed to ease some of these concerns by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June deadline if they choose and by permitting public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum that has been promised to them as soon as it becomes available" part of MSNBC story.

Only those stations that have analog frequencies that are go to be used for public safety communications can shut early. Since only about 18% of the freed up spectrum is going to public safety, about only 18% of those stations on channels 51-69 can shut early. Stations broadcasting analog on channels 2-50 can't shut early according to senate bill. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147758


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Mr. Hevener, I'm not disputing your statement but if you could show me specifically in the bill where that is said, I'd appreciate it.


----------



## DarthGeek

We're worried about a few million people getting TV (around 2% of the population)!?!?!

Seriously!?!?!

Um....let's see unemployment is what, 8%? But, let's worry about the 2% who might not be able to watch a little TV....

It wasn't that long ago that NO ONE had TV ....

Seriously!?!?!


----------



## HIPAR

samhevener said:


> ...
> Only those stations that have analog frequencies that are go to be used for public safety communications can shut early. Since only about 18% of the freed up spectrum is going to public safety, about only 18% of those stations on channels 51-69 can shut early. Stations broadcasting analog on channels 2-50 can't shut early according to senate bill. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147758


I don't read it that way Sam. Any station, regardless of its current channel can shut off analog and make the transition if has some place to go that doesn't conflict with an analog operation that has chosen to remain on the air.

I really don't understand why there is mention of the freed from TV spectrum in the proposed legislation; the delay doesn't change anything. I suppose it was part of a compromise to gain a unanimous vote.

--- CHAS


----------



## PersistenceOfVision

Why can't there be a transition period?

Why a "hard" switch over?

1. Fully fund the DTV box coupon program.
2. Switch off all analog transmissions every other week for 2 months
3. Replace the analog transmissions with detailed instructions/pictures etc. to 
assist people with the change over (on the "off" weeks)
4. At the end of the 2 month transition period kill all the analog transmissions

I realize that there will still be some that don't take the time to change, but heck make them miss some of their shows every other week as some sort of motivation to do something.....


----------



## Sander

GaryPotter said:


> And Congress scratches their butts and wonders why no one has faith in them...
> 
> A few idiots from Dumbbell, Chicago are too stupid to read what's right in front of their face complain, and we all have to suffer. It really doesn't take much to get Congress to shiver, shreak, and wring their hands in agony. God help this country.


A converter box is needed if you get signals over the air to an analog TV. However, this will not solve the problem for those with analog antennas in even reasonably close-in suburbs.

Digital TV antennas are needed. These are often very directional in nature, and must have clear line-of-sight. In 1996, before DirecTV offered local stations here in the Marietta, GA (Atlanta suburb), I opted to get a digital antenna for OTA to my DirecTV HD converter box. The antenna was often only able to receive DTV signals from one or maybe two local stations. I would have needed to get an antenna rotator to even attempt to receive the DTV signals from all of the Atlanta stations, rotating the antenna each time I wanted to switch stations. As it was, the antenna and installation ran over $200. I never did get to see the '96 Olympics in HD on NBC - HD.

So in addition to the converter, many will need a costly new DTV antenna and antenna rotator, plus installation. For those with small portable TV's? Forget it.

At least I had the option of using an analog antenna to receive SD local signals. But with the national switch-over, even this would not be a viable option.

For most, today, the only real option is to get cable or satellite. An expensive option for many, in today's stressed economy. This is a complex problem and will not be solved by blaming mythical "dumbbells" from Chicago.


----------



## HIPAR

PersistenceOfVision said:


> Why can't there be a transition period?
> 
> Why a "hard" switch over?
> 
> 1. Fully fund the DTV box coupon program.
> 2. Switch off all analog transmissions every other week for 2 months
> 3. Replace the analog transmissions with detailed instructions/pictures etc. to
> assist people with the change over (on the "off" weeks)
> 4. At the end of the 2 month transition period kill all the analog transmissions
> 
> I realize that there will still be some that don't take the time to change, but heck make them miss some of their shows every other week as some sort of motivation to do something.....


Depending upon the number of stations who decide to switch early, the upcoming legislation might, in effect, create a phased transition. The problem being that won't happen in the major markets remaining analog until the final second.

--- CHAS


----------



## James Long

The mention of freed spectrum and extension of deadlines is for the replacement services. The new wireless services will not be penalized for not having their networks up (especially because an analog or pre-transition digital station may be in their way).

ANY TV station, regardless of channel, may disable their analog within the rules set by the FCC. At the moment the rule is 30 day notice to the FCC and viewers - and all stations should be already doing notifications as part of the planned transition. If a station chooses NOT to disable analog they will need to pull their ads (as soon as it is legal to do so).

Stations can't stay on the air beyond February 17th until this bill becomes law (except nightlight emergency only service). Only a lack of cooperation from an interfering analog station would prevent digital conversion and NOTHING would prevent analog shut off. (A station can disable analog and stay on a pre-transition channel, if needed.)

It appears the ball is entirely in the station's court as to when analog dies. Of course, that could change when Acting FCC Chairman Copps actually has a law in front of him.


----------



## loudo

Sander said:


> Digital TV antennas are needed.


Not in all cases. I am using a 25 year old Radio Shack UHF/VHF antenna and getting all possible digital/HD stations on it. I get all the stations on my HR20 boxes and on 2 of my HDTVs that have digital tuners. Some of the stations come in with the digital tuner, hooked to that antenna, that I can't get with an analog tuner hooked to it.


----------



## scooper

samhevener said:


> "But Rockefeller managed to ease some of these concerns by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June deadline if they choose and by permitting public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum that has been promised to them as soon as it becomes available" part of MSNBC story.
> 
> Only those stations that have analog frequencies that are go to be used for public safety communications can shut early. Since only about 18% of the freed up spectrum is going to public safety, about only 18% of those stations on channels 51-69 can shut early. Stations broadcasting analog on channels 2-50 can't shut early according to senate bill. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147758


How about go reading the bill itself - The only language I saw substituted "June 12, 2009" for "Febuary 17,2009".

IOW - stations are free to shutdown early.

From Sec 4 - 
SEC. 4. IMPLEMENTATION.

(a) Permissive Early Termination Under Existing Requirements- Nothing in this Act is intended to prevent a licensee of a television broadcast station from terminating the broadcasting of such station's analog television signal (and continuing to broadcast exclusively in the digital television service) prior to the date established by law under section 3002(b) of the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005 for termination of all licenses for full-power television stations in the analog television service (as amended by section 2 of this Act) so long as such prior termination is conducted in accordance with the Federal Communications Commission's requirements in effect on the date of enactment of this Act, including the flexible procedures established in the Matter of Third Periodic Review of the Commission's Rules and Policies Affecting the Conversion to Digital Television (FCC 07-228, MB Docket No. 07-91, released December 31, 2007).

You wanted chaos - you got chaos....


----------



## HIPAR

James Long said:


> ...
> 
> Stations can't stay on the air beyond February 17th until this bill becomes law (except nightlight emergency only service). Only a lack of cooperation from an interfering analog station would prevent digital conversion and NOTHING would prevent analog shut off. (A station can disable analog and stay on a pre-transition channel, if needed.)
> 
> It appears the ball is entirely in the station's court as to when analog dies. Of course, that could change when Acting FCC Chairman Copps actually has a law in front of him.


I think this backwards. It's more like a lack of cooperation from an analog station to accept interference from a transitioning station that can block a transition. Analog stations have priority on their channel until the new date.

--- CHAS


----------



## Tom Robertson

samhevener said:


> ...
> Only those stations that have analog frequencies that are go to be used for public safety communications can shut early. Since only about 18% of the freed up spectrum is going to public safety, about only 18% of those stations on channels 51-69 can shut early. Stations broadcasting analog on channels 2-50 can't shut early according to senate bill. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147758


Sam, I'm pretty sure you are mistaken about the current law of which this extends. The extension reads:


> SEC. 4. IMPLEMENTATION.
> 
> (a) Permissive Early Termination Under Existing Requirements- Nothing in this Act is intended to prevent a licensee of a television broadcast station from terminating the broadcasting of such station's analog television signal (and continuing to broadcast exclusively in the digital television service) prior to the date established by law under section 3002(b) of the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005 for termination of all licenses for full-power television stations in the analog television service (as amended by section 2 of this Act) so long as such prior termination is conducted in accordance with the Federal Communications Commission's requirements in effect on the date of enactment of this Act, including the flexible procedures established in the Matter of Third Periodic Review of the Commission's Rules and Policies Affecting the Conversion to Digital Television (FCC 07-228, MB Docket No. 07-91, released December 31, 2007).


Going back to the *Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005* only discusses the required date by which all must be transitioned.

And a quick read of the FCC "Matter of Third Periodic Review of the Commission's Rules and Policies Affecting the Conversion to Digital Television" indicates stations can terminate analog at anytime after meeting the notification rules. (And as James Long points out, every station has met those rules for February 18.) 

Unfortunately, this extension also extends the current rules favoring analog stations from interference rather than reversing the preferential treatment. Bummer.

Perhaps next week we'll start a poll on the over/under of how many stations actually terminate their analog on February 18. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sander said:


> A converter box is needed if you get signals over the air to an analog TV. However, this will not solve the problem for those with analog antennas in even reasonably close-in suburbs.
> 
> Digital TV antennas are needed. These are often very directional in nature, and must have clear line-of-sight. In 1996, before DirecTV offered local stations here in the Marietta, GA (Atlanta suburb), I opted to get a digital antenna for OTA to my DirecTV HD converter box. The antenna was often only able to receive DTV signals from one or maybe two local stations. I would have needed to get an antenna rotator to even attempt to receive the DTV signals from all of the Atlanta stations, rotating the antenna each time I wanted to switch stations. As it was, the antenna and installation ran over $200. I never did get to see the '96 Olympics in HD on NBC - HD.
> 
> So in addition to the converter, many will need a costly new DTV antenna and antenna rotator, plus installation. For those with small portable TV's? Forget it.
> 
> At least I had the option of using an analog antenna to receive SD local signals. But with the national switch-over, even this would not be a viable option.
> 
> For most, today, the only real option is to get cable or satellite. An expensive option for many, in today's stressed economy. This is a complex problem and will not be solved by blaming mythical "dumbbells" from Chicago.


There ain't no such animals as "Digital TV antennas". They are just TV antennas that happen to work very well with both analog and digital signals. 

Now, some people might need a new antenna before the signals go full strength and others might need a new antenna afterward but only if they have the wrong frequency range (ie VHF only).

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobukcat

Stuart Sweet said:


> To go very quickly off topic, the fact is that we are metric all the way to the end user. Science, technology, manufacturing, is all done to metric standards and the final product is sold in the English system.


Really? I can show you 20 highway signs within a short drive with absolutely no mention of a KM, it's all in Miles and MPH. I also work for a large Engineering/Manufacturing company based in the US and no one talks grams or centimeters, it's all ounces or inches. Our counterparts and suppliers in the the rest of world constantly voice the challenges they face because of this disconnect and I have friends who moved over from France that still stuggle with grocery shopping, following recipes etc.

I only bring this up because unless a hard date is set and held to these are the kinds of things that happen, it drags on and on, and on.....


----------



## aa9vi

dodge boy said:


> The only morons are the idiots on here crying "foul". You locals will be digital by Feb. They just don't have to shut off the analog channels then. Serious if your locals aren't broadcasting in digital by now, you must be living in that little town "Deliverence" was filmed in.


kinda, sort-of ... Some channels are increasing their ERP, some changing channels. Some stations can't increase power or go to a clearer RF channel until the analog stations shut off. (case in point for Chicago, the 3rd DMA, WBBM is on a horrible RF digital channel 3 and reception will be better once they move to 12, but they can't do that until WISN-12 Milwaukee analog signs off) Some stations are leasing transmitters for their temporary digital channels. The cost of running 2 simulataneous analog and digital transmitters is expensive. Also, tower climbing crews have schedules. I read somewhere that the PBS stations are going to have to scrounge up another $22M to cover this last minute change in plan. THAT is why this is a dumb decision.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Tom Robertson said:


> There ain't no such animals as "Digital TV antennas". They are just TV antennas that happen to work very well with both analog and digital signals.
> 
> Now, some people might need a new antenna before the signals go full strength and others might need a new antenna afterward but only if they have the wrong frequency range (ie VHF only).


+1

I can't believe that this close to the end of full-power analog, that some still think there are "digital antennas".

An antenna, is an antenna, it will "capture" any RF energy that strikes it, within its designed bandwidth. It matters not if the signal has analog or digital information.

The reason some needed higher gain antennas was because of the initial lower power of the first temporary DTV signals. Others needed to add UHF or VHF since the some of the new channels were in a band they didn't use previously.

Assuming you had a usable TV signal via antenna with analog...

Since the majority of VHF high stations will move back to their "old" analog assignment after the analog cut-off, that same antenna will work just fine for DTV.

If your DTV "legacy" analog and digital signal are both UHF, then again your current antenna should work.

If you have a VHF or UHF only antenna, and the DTV signal will be in a different band, you might need a new antenna. Keep in mind some UHF antennas can also receive VHF Hi (7-13), too. Not with a lot of gain, however.


----------



## Jon J

dennispap said:


> New FCC filings indicate that some analog stations still plan to cease broadcasting as of 2/17/09, regardless of what Congress decides this week. WTVF-5, Nashville (CBS) plans to end their analog transmission and switch their DTV from ch. 56 to ch. 5.


Their chief engineer told me the digital transmitter on 56 is costing $10,000 a month in electricity cost.


----------



## Ken S

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm no attorney but it seems to me if you were planning to shut down on 2/17 and you still want to plan to do that, you can. If you want to read the text of Senate 328, as passed yesterday: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:s.00328:


Stuart,

It's also important to note that any channel can broadcast both digital and analog at the same time. So the people that HAVE TO HAVE digital can do so. Only the stations that want to support analog until June have to do so.


----------



## loudo

The bottom line, whether we want to see it extended or not, we will have to listen to all of those switch over ads for another 4 months. The only thing that will change is the date. They have been on for so long I have them all memorized by now and was looking forward to not having to listen to them any more after Feb. :nono2:


----------



## koji68

KSbugeater said:


> On the bright side, I get to use my analog TVs and my one DVD recorder with a hard-disk but only an analog tuner for another 4 months... also, my big-screen only has an analog tuner built-in so once analog goes away the PIP tuner is worthless...


Oh well... Thank God then!


----------



## James Long

HIPAR said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Stations can't stay on the air beyond February 17th until this bill becomes law (except nightlight emergency only service). Only a lack of cooperation from an interfering analog station would prevent digital conversion and NOTHING would prevent analog shut off. (A station can disable analog and stay on a pre-transition channel, if needed.)
> 
> It appears the ball is entirely in the station's court as to when analog dies. Of course, that could change when Acting FCC Chairman Copps actually has a law in front of him.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this backwards. It's more like a lack of cooperation from an analog station to accept interference from a transitioning station that can block a transition. Analog stations have priority on their channel until the new date.
Click to expand...

At the moment analog and digital protect each other and there is nothing in S.328 that specifically prefers analog broadcasters. What I was trying to say was: If an analog station decides not to get out of the way of a digital station the digital station conversion is being interfered with. We basically agree ... the digital station will have to wait ... we're just saying it different.


----------



## jacksonm30354

Sander said:


> A converter box is needed if you get signals over the air to an analog TV. However, this will not solve the problem for those with analog antennas in even reasonably close-in suburbs.
> 
> Digital TV antennas are needed. These are often very directional in nature, and must have clear line-of-sight. In 1996, before DirecTV offered local stations here in the Marietta, GA (Atlanta suburb), I opted to get a digital antenna for OTA to my DirecTV HD converter box. The antenna was often only able to receive DTV signals from one or maybe two local stations. I would have needed to get an antenna rotator to even attempt to receive the DTV signals from all of the Atlanta stations, rotating the antenna each time I wanted to switch stations. As it was, the antenna and installation ran over $200. I never did get to see the '96 Olympics in HD on NBC - HD.
> 
> So in addition to the converter, many will need a costly new DTV antenna and antenna rotator, plus installation. For those with small portable TV's? Forget it.
> 
> At least I had the option of using an analog antenna to receive SD local signals. But with the national switch-over, even this would not be a viable option.
> 
> For most, today, the only real option is to get cable or satellite. An expensive option for many, in today's stressed economy. This is a complex problem and will not be solved by blaming mythical "dumbbells" from Chicago.


Back then, the stations probably were on low power and temporary towers. 
From a vantage point in Marietta now, you should not have to rotate the antenna at all as all the towers should all be in the direction of downtown Atlanta.

I have a $20 Zenith Silver Sensor antenna in my basement in Hapeville and can get all of the Atlanta locals even WGTV which is broadcasting from Stone Mountain. Both WXIA (11/10) and WGTV (8/12) analog and digital signals are on VHF. The only station I can't get is 14 (ION) who's tower is in Catersville I think.

What folks may need is a UHF antenna vs. a VHF antenna. As Atlanta has an analog mix of VHF and UHF and digital will also be a mix, the same antenna should work today. I believe all the stations in Atlanta are full power and will not change digital dial positions.

I also set up my sister's in Columbus, GA. It will be a little trickier here - the NBC (38/35) and FOX (54/49) are about 10 miles away, CBS (3/15), ABC (9/47) are about 20 miles away. From her vantage point all 4 towers are pretty much the same direction. Using Silver Sensor here too, she's gets all of the big 4 flawlessly. It is a VAST improvement over any analog reception at this location. Now when the switch occurs, 9's digital ch 47 will become CW66's digital channel (they'll give up the current digital 31). 9's digital channel will move to ch 11. So it could pose an antenna issue for those with only UHF antennas. However, since I don't have issue with WXIA's digital on VHF with the silver sensor, it should still be ok.


----------



## tkrandall

Sander said:


> A converter box is needed if you get signals over the air to an analog TV. However, this will not solve the problem for those with analog antennas in even reasonably close-in suburbs.
> 
> Digital TV antennas are needed. These are often very directional in nature, and must have clear line-of-sight. In 1996, before DirecTV offered local stations here in the Marietta, GA (Atlanta suburb), I opted to get a digital antenna for OTA to my DirecTV HD converter box. The antenna was often only able to receive DTV signals from one or maybe two local stations. I would have needed to get an antenna rotator to even attempt to receive the DTV signals from all of the Atlanta stations, rotating the antenna each time I wanted to switch stations. As it was, the antenna and installation ran over $200. I never did get to see the '96 Olympics in HD on NBC - HD.
> 
> So in addition to the converter, many will need a costly new DTV antenna and antenna rotator, plus installation. For those with small portable TV's? Forget it.
> 
> At least I had the option of using an analog antenna to receive SD local signals. But with the national switch-over, even this would not be a viable option.
> 
> For most, today, the only real option is to get cable or satellite. An expensive option for many, in today's stressed economy. This is a complex problem and will not be solved by blaming mythical "dumbbells" from Chicago.


I have no idea what you mean by "digital antenna". I live near Marietta but further out to the NW of Kennesaw Mountain and my line of site to the Atlanta stations is obscured by the mountain. I suspect my signal environment is much worse than yours. I have fairly weak signal and multipath, but have a single 4228 antenna mounted on my roof and a 7777 pre-amp. There is about a 10-12 degree angle between for all the stations except WGTV which comes from atop stone mountain. But I get their analog/8 sginal decently. I get all the Atlanta digital stations (except very low power WGTV/12) fine on my Samsung DLP's tuner, and my Zenith converter box. The only ATSC receiver I have that has any problems is the one included inside my HR20-700. It only get about half of them reliably with it. The 4228 does pretty well, as it picks up the high VHF channels OK. I am anxiously awaiting the power up of WGTV digital on 8 to see what I get. Hope I don't have to wait until June.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

PersistenceOfVision said:


> Why can't there be a transition period?
> 
> Why a "hard" switch over?
> 
> 1. Fully fund the DTV box coupon program.
> 2. Switch off all analog transmissions every other week for 2 months
> 3. Replace the analog transmissions with detailed instructions/pictures etc. to
> assist people with the change over (on the "off" weeks)
> 4. At the end of the 2 month transition period kill all the analog transmissions
> 
> I realize that there will still be some that don't take the time to change, but heck make them miss some of their shows every other week as some sort of motivation to do something.....


The thing is... we've actually been in a 2-year+ transition period already... so most arguments that say "another couple of months and all will be well" don't make sense when 2 years or more wasn't enough for some people.

Whatever the problem is, there's no real reason to assume an extension at this point will help significantly.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

DarthGeek said:


> We're worried about a few million people getting TV (around 2% of the population)!?!?!
> 
> Seriously!?!?!
> 
> Um....let's see unemployment is what, 8%? But, let's worry about the 2% who might not be able to watch a little TV....
> 
> It wasn't that long ago that NO ONE had TV ....
> 
> Seriously!?!?!


100% agree here! And the unemployment number is just one percentage that can be used to show how out of touch with reality this worry over people not being ready for digital TV really is.

There are so many more important things to worry about that I really can't believe all the attention this has been getting.

I'm not saying I don't feel for people who will be caught unprepared... I just feel more for other people caught unprepared with more dire needs than the "need" to watch TV.


----------



## Retro

I think all this is just more of a P.R. move by the president and congress. Most stations will go ahead and switch over and move channels as needed and their new frequency is available... The few people who complain about the fact that there was supposed to be an extension will be told "yes, but it allowed stations that wanted to switch, to do so and the extension date was not mandatory".. 

Remember, the extension is basically 2 things.. 1. Allow time to replenish the coupon deal and allow those whose expired to resubmit.. 2. The new extension date is date when stations must change over by and not have to wait until to change over.. I fully expect for more than 50% of stations to switch by feb 17th and then the rest to trickle down as their new designated frequency becomes available. 

If people aren't ready, then they haven't watched TV.. If they had been watching any tv, even local news, then they would've seen the DTV commercials and newscast segment explaining it over and over!:nono2:


----------



## ICBM99

So how did the coupon program run out of money?

Didn't they have estimates? I think somethings fishy.

And like has been said 4 more months is not going to help the people that are truly confused.


----------



## turey22

When will we know about the house vote?


----------



## Tom Robertson

The House vote is currently looking like end of today's session, about 8pm ET, I think.


----------



## HIPAR

ICBM99 said:


> So how did the coupon program run out of money?
> 
> Didn't they have estimates? I think somethings fishy.
> 
> And like has been said 4 more months is not going to help the people that are truly confused.


Maybe it did, maybe it didn't run out of money. It depends on how you do the accounting. A huge percentage of the issued coupons will not be redeemed. These coupons will be recycled and are still worth a lot of money.

It's more like the program ran out of time before all the coupons could be issued by Feb 17. They didn't plan for an eleventh hour rush.

--- CHAS


----------



## msmith

ICBM99 said:


> So how did the coupon program run out of money?
> 
> Didn't they have estimates? I think somethings fishy.
> 
> And like has been said 4 more months is not going to help the people that are truly confused.


An FCC official spoke to our ham radio club about the transition.

He stated that there is plenty of money, but that it's tied up in unused coupons that haven't expired yet. It seems that a lot of people didn't use the coupons (and some of our hams didn't even receive them).


----------



## Bobby H

> The only morons are the idiots on here crying "foul". You locals will be digital by Feb. They just don't have to shut off the analog channels then. Serious if your locals aren't broadcasting in digital by now, you must be living in that little town "Deliverence" was filmed in.


Do you have any idea how much money it costs for local TV stations to broadcast _full power_ DTV signals and full power legacy analog TV broadcast signals at the same time?

The transmission cost for two signals is very high. Most local TV stations are not owned by major networks. They're typically owned by smaller companies with not so deep pockets. They're already struggling badly due to a serious downturn in TV advertising revenue, thanks largely to the economy being in the toilet.

The TV stations can choose to drop DTV signal transmission strength back down to low power levels to save money. That will disappoint lots of HDTV owners who were enjoying great looking HD signals over the air for free.

A couple TV stations in my area are going to leave their DTV signals at full power, but will consider dumping the analog signals down to low power levels _or even removing the programming from them after Feb. 17 and replacing them with a static slate telling analog TV viewers where they can find information on how to switch to digital TV._

This four month delay is only going to cause even more confusion with the DTV deadline, especially since TV stations already prepared for the switch can do so well before June 12. I think it's a slick way for the government to shift the direction of consumer anger at local TV stations instead of the government where it rightfully belongs.

I wouldn't find this delay so irritating if the government had brought up this issue a couple of months ago. Instead they waited until only 3 weeks before the scheduled deadline to pass an extension. I bet the government will ask for yet another deadline extension in late May just before the new June 12 deadline.


----------



## computersecguy

Unfortunately there is still a lot of misinformation around the entire transition. At least in our area, there wasn't much of a reason to go and get converter boxes, until just recently. The reason, we only have one high power station. That leaves three national networks and a handful of others that, as far as I know, still have no requirement to go digital. (Has this changed for low power or translator stations yet?)

Because of this, and the unavailability, until recently, of analog-pass though devices, many associates at the electronics stores actually told people that it wasn't worth getting the boxes because of the hassles they would have trying to watch either the analog or digital stations.

Forward to the last 10 or so weeks, three of the national networks have gone full digital. And even with those analog stations gone, I am surprised how many people are still curious as to why the stations are no longer there, but it doesn't seem to matter to them.

I know a number of intelligent people, including technically oriented individuals who are extremely confused by the transition already. It is just that they aren't into TV as much as us. Even here, there was an individual that claimed he was an expert and said that all stations would be digital on the deadline and no exemption was given to low power or translator stations. So with all the confusion, it seems to me that extending the transition out is doing nothing creating more confusion.

I just hope that someone is taking notes for future conversions that will happen, to ensure a clear concise message.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ICBM99 said:


> So how did the coupon program run out of money?
> 
> Didn't they have estimates? I think somethings fishy.


1 for you.....1 for me....

1 for you.....2 for me...


----------



## PicaKing

GaryPotter said:


> And Congress scratches their butts and wonders why no one has faith in them...
> 
> A few idiots from Dumbbell, Chicago are too stupid to read what's right in front of their face complain, and we all have to suffer. It really doesn't take much to get Congress to shiver, shreak, and wring their hands in agony. God help this country.


Unless Dumbbell is a suburb of Chicago, you probably meant to say Dumbbell, Illinois.


----------



## robmadden1

The house is talking about DTV right now on C-SPAN.


----------



## James Long

20 minutes per side ...


----------



## jdonato

Discussion in the House is beginning now (8:22 PM ET)


----------



## hasan

jdonato said:


> Discussion in the House is beginning now (8:22 PM ET)


I can't bear to listen/watch.

I hope the majority of stations elect to save money and switch analog off on Feb 17.

The fact that local retailers have routinely run out of boxes, and the gov ran out of money for the coupons, I completely understand why they might want to delay the forced transition until June.

Our local Wal-Mart has sold over 2300 converter boxes, and runs out about every three or four days...the Chinese can't make them fast enough!


----------



## robmadden1

One person is against the date being changed and he is not even ready for the change.


----------



## Tom Robertson

(So far)


----------



## cforrest

I'm surprised the NBA isn't making a stink over the date, since it falls during the time the NBA finals will be played!


----------



## Tom Robertson

I loved the response from the gentlemen of Texas, when the "For" team didn't have their speakers ready: "We could delay [the debate]"


----------



## robmadden1

Voting on the bill will be tomorrow.


----------



## James Long

It is a shame that the people wanting this change couldn't show up for the debate.
Rep. Boucher is a one man show ... and even he is apologetic for asking for the change.


----------



## James Long

A really loud NAY!


----------



## Steve615

dennispap said:


> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28863961/
> Per this report......."But Rockefeller managed to ease some of these concerns by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June deadline if they choose and by permitting public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum that has been promised to them as soon as it becomes available."
> 
> *New FCC filings indicate that some analog stations still plan to cease broadcasting as of 2/17/09, regardless of what Congress decides this week. WTVF-5, Nashville (CBS) plans to end their analog transmission and switch their DTV from ch. 56 to ch. 5.*
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=36504
> 
> Also, WFWA-39, Fort Wayne, IN (PBS) plans to cease analog broadcasts as of 2/17/09. One reason listed is due to additional costs associated with operating the analog transmitter....."SINCE THE ESTABLISHMENT IN 2005 OF FEBRUARY 17, 2009 AS THE DEADLINE FOR ALL TELEVISION STATIONS TO TERMINATE ANALOG BROADCAST SERVICE, THE STATION HAS PLANNED AND BUDGETED TO TRANSITION AS OF FEBRUARY 17, 2009. CONTINUED ANALOG OPERATION BEYOND THE EXISTING DTV TRANSITION DEADLINE PLACES THE STATION IN FINANCIAL HARDSHIP, INCLUDING UNBUDGETED COSTS FOR MAINTENANCE OF THE ANALOG FACILITY AND ELECTRICAL POWER CONSUMPTION."
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=22108
> 
> i think we're likely to hear more comments like the one from WFWA in the coming days.


WTVF in Nashville has been running some pretty lengthy messages at the conclusion of their newscasts for the last few days.
They are letting people know in this area that they will shut the analog signal down on Feb. 17.
They are also advising folks with the digital to analog boxes to do another scan on Feb. 18 for the digital channel.


----------



## samhevener

If as some of you say, any station that wants can shut down on Feb 17th, what is the point of the bill. The bill is to keep the analog stations on the air. I would assume if the bill allowed any station shut on Feb 17th, 99% would do so.


----------



## Pepster

samhevener said:


> "But Rockefeller managed to ease some of these concerns by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June deadline if they choose and by permitting public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum that has been promised to them as soon as it becomes available" part of MSNBC story.
> 
> Only those stations that have analog frequencies that are go to be used for public safety communications can shut early. Since only about 18% of the freed up spectrum is going to public safety, about only 18% of those stations on channels 51-69 can shut early. Stations broadcasting analog on channels 2-50 can't shut early according to senate bill. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147758


I wonder if stations still play the national anthem when signing off.


----------



## neljtorres

Almost all the channels in Puerto Rico are going to shut down their analog signal on Febraury 18, 2009.


There are a couple of stations that are going to keep their analog like: WORO, WECN and WSTE:lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

samhevener said:


> If as some of you say, any station that wants can shut down on Feb 17th, what is the point of the bill. The bill is to keep the analog stations on the air. I would assume if the bill allowed any station shut on Feb 17th, 99% would do so.


This is more of a political issue than a logistics one, and I won't go there, as political discussions are not allowed.

Stations have been preparing for Feb 17, 2009 now for years, and likely 95% of them are prepared for the conversion to all-digital on that date.

CNN reported just yesterday (again) that this the recent "rush" to delay is primarily a result of "new management" in Washington DC and concerns over some folks being left out in the cold.

After over 5 years of promoting the Dickens out of this change-over...and hundreds of millions in cost to do so....there really is no major reason for it to be delayed, however, apparently a vocal small audience has raised enough attention in the issue in the 11th hour to spark a debate on the topic.


----------



## HIPAR

samhevener said:


> If as some of you say, any station that wants can shut down on Feb 17th, what is the point of the bill. The bill is to keep the analog stations on the air. I would assume if the bill allowed any station shut on Feb 17th, 99% would do so.


It's to keep analog lit up in the major population centers. You can read into that what you wish.

--- CHAS


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm not sure it's about major population centers; if any station were to take advantage of the delay, I'd expect it would be a fringe market where cable penetration is low. In larger areas, as well as remote ones, cable and satellite penetration is higher. Those folks who are served well by OTA but who do not have enough population density to justify modern cable TV runs seem more likely to be OTA only.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

love that tv said:


> relax!! why is everyone so angry about this? really? how does this effect any of you?


For over a year now, when the power goes out, the generator only backs up the analog signal. I'm on digital only and when the power goes out, that means no CSI, LOST, Knight Rider, NCIS, or any public broadcast programming for me. I have made the transition long ago. It affects those who have set up for digital only. It's not fair to those who have made the transition and those that didn't just sat on their lazy butts procrastinating. Now that they've approved the 4 month delay, that means a lot of missed first runs for me. I hardly watch TV during the late spring through early fall so I do not watch much re-runs during that span. That is what is getting us who have made the move really antsy.


----------



## turey22

When will congress VOTE!?!?!?!


----------



## gregjones

The "optional" language shows how little congress understands the transitions. Many markets involve channel assignments (or neighboring channel assignments) changing hands. If one station opts to stay OTA, it could deny another station the ability to convert on the Feb 17 date.


----------



## HIPAR

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm not sure it's about major population centers; if any station were to take advantage of the delay, I'd expect it would be a fringe market where cable penetration is low. ..


I live in a fringe area for broadcast TV and expect to lose reception in June so I have satellite. That works almost anywhere.

I'm thinking the stations serving the fringe areas will be the most likely to exercise options to turn off analog because they don't have the viewership, measured in raw numbers, to justify those (now famous) costs of dual broadcast operations.

I have no data to prove it but I'm thinking the over the air viewership, measured in raw numbers, is in the major population centers. I'd be surprised to see New York, Chicago, LA or Philadelphia go digital until the last second.

--- CHAS


----------



## Stuart Sweet

On the other hand, speaking for the Los Angeles market, our cable and satellite penetration is so high that there's very little benefit to keeping analog alive. I guess we'll see which one of us is right on February 18...I hope we're both right and that analog broadcasting stops on schedule because the market chooses that it do so.


----------



## HIPAR

HDTVFreak07 said:


> .. I'm on digital only ..


That's possible but I suspect you still own at least one TV that can receive good old NTSC. 

--- CHAS


----------



## rhipps

They are truly "fools on the Hill." Go to http://www.congress.org/congressorg/mailapp/ and express your outrage to your elected reps. I did!!!


----------



## HIPAR

Stuart Sweet said:


> On the other hand, speaking for the Los Angeles market, our cable and satellite penetration is so high that there's very little benefit to keeping analog alive. I guess we'll see which one of us is right on February 18...I hope we're both right and that analog broadcasting stops on schedule because the market chooses that it do so.


There is so much socioeconomic, sociopolitical, legal, business and technical interplay here. Mix in the emotion that has been aroused!

It's kinda fun to prognosticate on this Matter.

--- CHAS


----------



## HDTVFreak07

HIPAR said:


> That's possible but I suspect you still own at least one TV that can receive good old NTSC.
> 
> --- CHAS


Well, yes I have a couple but that means I have to take one off the wall to add an antenna connection and another to mess around with but I can't DVR any of them. On one TV, closed captioning doesn't work for analog (I did mess with the settings and still to no avail). The whole point is, people have had more than a year to prepare for it. The government intervening is just making things worse and make people procrastinate further.

If I go and mess around with my TV's to allow for antenna input, I will receive an EYESORE!!! Picture quality is terrible on HDTV for analogs!


----------



## scooper

samhevener said:


> If as some of you say, any station that wants can shut down on Feb 17th, what is the point of the bill. The bill is to keep the analog stations on the air. I would assume if the bill allowed any station shut on Feb 17th, 99% would do so.


We told you that this bill was a bad idea. Because indeed - several stations ARE shutting down analog on or before Feb 17. And even if/when this bill gets signed, there is that good old permissive section 4 that says with adequate notification - stations can shutdown analog whenever they want - as long as they are all shutdown by June 12.

This bill was written to PERMIT extension of analog - not REQUIRE extension of analog.

As far as any particular station shutting down - it depends on their circumstances some can afford to keep it going longer (I've already been in touch with one engineer - corporate policy for them is to go until the bitter end). Others have already shutdown, or it is already in the works.


----------



## scooper

I honestly think that the whole Raleigh Durham DMA could turn off analog right now and it would hardly be noticed. 25% DBS coverage (one of the highest in the country), cable available to most everyone (a few exceptions, but there is everywhere), and we were the birthplace of US HDTV with WRAL. You would have to have lived under a rock and not watched any TV for the last year to be unaware of the transition - and in that case - it still doesn't affect you.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

So as stated before, this is a bill that everyone can get behind - it imposes no burden on many broadcasters who will be free to stop analog broadcasting when they choose, it extends the availability of coupons for those who are waiting without pouring more money into the program, and it provides positive PR for the lawmakers who support it (at least among the less technical.)

Nothing is perfect and as discussed there are still some stations that might have to wait because another station hasn't given up analog yet.

As I have said before, the interesting thing should be how many (or how few) stations _choose_ to take advantage of the time extension, as it seems to be a choice.


----------



## samhevener

scooper said:


> We told you that this bill was a bad idea. Because indeed - several stations ARE shutting down analog on or before Feb 17. And even if/when this bill gets signed, there is that good old permissive section 4 that says with adequate notification - stations can shutdown analog whenever they want - as long as they are all shutdown by June 12.
> 
> This bill was written to PERMIT extension of analog - not REQUIRE extension of analog.
> 
> As far as any particular station shutting down - it depends on their circumstances some can afford to keep it going longer (I've already been in touch with one engineer - corporate policy for them is to go until the bitter end). Others have already shutdown, or it is already in the works.


I agree with you, the bill as we see it is a bad idea. If the bill was written as I thought Rockefeller intended, only some of those stations that are on analog channels 51-69 could shut before June 12th. The ones that are on frequencies that going to be given to public service.


----------



## James Long

samhevener said:


> If as some of you say, any station that wants can shut down on Feb 17th, what is the point of the bill. The bill is to keep the analog stations on the air. I would assume if the bill allowed any station shut on Feb 17th, 99% would do so.


I agree with your assumption that MOST stations will shut down on February 17th ... and it is nice that you see the problem with this extension. Analog isn't required.

That is also the best part of the bill ... stations CAN turn off their analog without penalty.


----------



## James Long

Nielson Statistics in the Congressional Record:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2009_record&page=H587&position=all
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2009_record&page=H588&position=all
(See PDFs above for lined up columns)

Percent Completely ready - Partially ready - Completely unready
Albuquerque-Santa Fe .............. 81.29 6.47 12.24
Dallas-Ft. Worth ....................... 77.39 12.40 10.21
Houston .................................... 72.63 17.42 9.95
Tulsa ......................................... 76.50 13.97 9.53
Portland, OR ............................. 80.85 10.08 9.08
Salt Lake City ........................... 81.58 9.85 8.58
Memphis ................................... 73.31 18.16 8.53
Austin ....................................... 80.73 10.82 8.45
Los Angeles .............................. 82.54 9.80 7.66
Sacramento-Stkton-Modesto .... 77.04 15.63 7.33
Phoenix (Prescott) .................... 77.82 14.87 7.31
Jacksonville .............................. 80.89 12.09 7.02
Dayton ...................................... 75.14 17.98 6.88
Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And ...... 84.94 8.37 6.69
Indianapolis .............................. 72.71 20.76 6.53
Milwaukee ................................. 73.94 19.63 6.43
San Antonio .............................. 77.19 16.61 6.20
Richmond-Petersburg ............... 77.04 16.83 6.13
San Diego ................................. 84.42 9.64 5.94
Cleveland-Akron (Canton) ........ 81.86 12.22 5.91
Minneapolis-St. Paul ................ 78.21 15.94 5.85
Kansas City .............................. 75.88 18.37 5.75
Seattle-Tacoma ........................ 85.18 9.16 5.67
Miami-Ft. Lauderdale ............... 83.11 11.41 5.47
St. Louis ................................... 79.72 15.02 5.26
Cincinnati ................................. 72.62 22.17 5.21
San Francisco-Oak-San Jose .... 89.45 5.35 5.20
Chicago .................................... 82.00 12.82 5.18
Las Vegas ................................. 81.79 13.04 5.17
Birmingham (Ann and Tusc) ... 82.91 12.23 4.86
Charlotte ................................... 85.50 9.72 4.79
Denver ...................................... 81.24 14.01 4.75
Louisville .................................. 80.66 14.75 4.59
Nashville ................................... 81.58 14.01 4.41
Detroit ....................................... 83.18 12.42 4.40
Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) ..... 80.47 15.15 4.38
New Orleans ............................. 84.14 11.51 4.35
Columbus, OH .......................... 79.64 16.08 4.29
Buffalo ...................................... 86.04 9.69 4.27
Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) ...... 89.47 6.39 4.14
Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) ..... 81.76 14.16 4.08
Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn ... 86.30 9.79 3.91
Norfolk-Portsmth-Newpt Nws ... 79.97 16.25 3.78
Baltimore .................................. 79.91 16.34 3.75
Greensboro-H.Point-W.Salem .... 85.20 11.38 3.42
Knoxville ................................... 84.78 12.02 3.20
Providence-New Bedford .......... 83.25 13.56 3.20
Oklahoma City .......................... 85.62 11.31 3.07
Pittsburgh ................................. 88.89 8.07 3.05
Ft. Myers-Naples ...................... 89.55 7.48 2.98
West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce .... 90.86 6.47 2.67
New York .................................. 92.51 4.93 2.57
Boston (Manchester) ................ 84.05 13.70 2.25
Philadelphia ............................. 87.37 10.53 2.10
Atlanta ...................................... 89.66 8.31 2.02
Hartford & New Haven ............. 87.91 10.34 1.76

The "completely unready" is the column I care the most about as the original transition law required 85% of homes to have ONE TV ready (parially or completely ready homes). The worst market is still over the 85% threshold for at least partially ready.


----------



## Pepster

James Long said:


> I agree with your assumption that MOST stations will shut down on February 17th ... and it is nice that you see the problem with this extension. Analog isn't required.
> 
> That is also the best part of the bill ... stations CAN turn off their analog without penalty.


I hope that the displayed date of 6/12/2009 *IS NOT* an indication of hpw2 of my local stations intend to handle the bill

http://media.myfoxny.com/dtv/


----------



## James Long

Pepster said:


> I hope that the displayed date of 6/12/2009 *IS NOT* an indication of hpw2 of my local stations intend to handle the bill
> 
> http://media.myfoxny.com/dtv/


Odd that they changed that particular mention of a date but not elsewhere on the page (including the March 31st date for coupons). Not official yet ... and I too hope that all stations will go ASAP.


----------



## harsh

turey22 said:


> When will congress VOTE!?!?!?!


The House is rightfully working on an economic stimulus package right now so it would likely be tomorrow at the earliest before they discuss the delay in earnest.


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> The worst market is still over the 85% threshold for at least partially ready.


You can bet that the percentage would drop fast if analog went away. Some people seem to like to have their priorities established for them.


----------



## scooper

I suppose I don't care if they stay up analog - in the guidelines of the NightLight provision. But I really want all digital moves to happen by Feb 18.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The necessary 2/3rds majority was not met so the rules were not suspended and the bill was not passed at this time.


----------



## Tom Robertson

According to a bottom line splash on CSPAN, it sounds like the bill won't pass. Perhaps because without a rules suspension it can't be passed before February 17?


----------



## Sirshagg

Tom Robertson said:


> According to a bottom line splash on CSPAN, it sounds like the bill won't pass. Perhaps because without a rules suspension it can't be passed before February 17?


Please don't toy with me


----------



## Tom Robertson

New thread started on the House actions so please continue over at: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151067

Thanks,
Tom


----------

