# Dish Retrans Dispute with MSG over Fuse (Channels Off 10-1-2010)



## bosco10021 (Apr 17, 2006)

BUFFALO SABRES GAMES CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE ON DISH NETWORK

MSG and DISH Network Unable to Come to Terms on a New Agreement; Sabres Fans Urged to Switch Carriers.

The Buffalo Sabres today announced that MSG Networks and DISH Network, who have been negotiating a new agreement since early this year, failed to come to an agreement by midnight last night to continue carrying Buffalo Sabres games.

"We've been informed by our broadcast partners at MSG they no longer have an agreement with DISH Network to televise Buffalo Sabres games," said Michael Gilbert, director of public relations for the Buffalo Sabres. "This is a matter between MSG and DISH Network, and the Sabres have no involvement in the negotiations between the two parties. As a result, we encourage all of our fans who have DISH Network to switch carriers. As it currently stands, DISH Network subscribers will be unable to watch Buffalo Sabres games starting with the season opener on October 8."

http://sabres.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=539194#


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

See http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=183732 for more discussion


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## bosco10021 (Apr 17, 2006)

MSG is not a Fox network.


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## Milleruszk (Apr 12, 2005)

In the NYC area MSG is no longer available on Dish Network due to a pricing dispute between MSG and Dish. According to Dish, MSG wants more money and also wants Dish to carry some "music" channel MSG is involved with.
No Rangers, Devils, Islanders, Knicks on Dish.


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## Eksynyt (Feb 8, 2008)

Dish is as good as gone, they won't be able to keep their subscribers at this rate.


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## Willh (Jan 1, 2009)

Milleruszk said:


> In the NYC area MSG is no longer available on Dish Network due to a pricing dispute between MSG and Dish. According to Dish, MSG wants more money and also wants Dish to carry some "music" channel MSG is involved with.
> No Rangers, Devils, Islanders, Knicks on Dish.


That "Some Music" channel would be Fuse, which Dish removed this past summer. so basically, don't expect to see any MSG owned network back on Dish anytime soon, you might want to change providers.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Disney, Fox, now MSG. Looks like Dave Shull needs tango lessions!


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## Milleruszk (Apr 12, 2005)

Willh said:


> That "Some Music" channel would be Fuse, which Dish removed this past summer. so basically, don't expect to see any MSG owned network back on Dish anytime soon, you might want to change providers.


Thanks for the info. My contract expires this Feb so I will definately move on if this situation is not corrected by then. Fios is starting to look awfully good.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Note ... there is a video loop on MSG for DISH's side of the argument ...
Also http://www.greedymsg.com/


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## zimm7778 (Nov 11, 2007)

"James Long" said:


> Note ... there is a video loop on MSG for DISH's side of the argument ...
> Also http://www.greedymsg.com/


And they registered a domain for that too lolololol!!!


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## ehren (Aug 3, 2003)

Dish should give NHL Center Ice for free, they will have about 2 games a night with all the sports net's gone!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

ehren said:


> Dish should give NHL Center Ice for free, they will have about 2 games a night with all the sports net's gone!


Rights to carry the NHL games are negotiated between DISH and the NHL ... loss of the rest of the RSN should not affect the ability to carry games DISH has purchased the rights to carry. Local games will probably be lost as the RSN has the rights to those ... but the national NHL CI offering should be unaffected.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Eksynyt said:


> Dish is as good as gone, they won't be able to keep their subscribers at this rate.


That seems to be the only thing you post... in every dispute thread... over and over.

Do you have any evidence from past channel disputes?

I haven't yet heard of large numbers of people leaving Dish over any channel dispute current or in the past.


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## Eksynyt (Feb 8, 2008)

Dish has never had this magnitude of multiple channel disputes at the same time before. If they lose their local Fox channels they will lose millions of subs. They are already over 2 billion in debt, they are toast. Their business model is admirable, but it is a colossal failure and DirecTV is owning them in terms of numbers.


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## E91 (Oct 7, 2008)

James Long said:


> Rights to carry the NHL games are negotiated between DISH and the NHL ... loss of the rest of the RSN should not affect the ability to carry games DISH has purchased the rights to carry. Local games will probably be lost as the RSN has the rights to those ... but the national NHL CI offering should be unaffected.


Are you sure of this? I eventually dropped DISH because their CI package almost never included NY Islander games in HD. I was always told this was due to the fact that DISH didn't have MSG HD and thus did not have the right to broadcast those games.

My understanding (which could be entirely wrong) was that the CI package was simply giving you access out-of-market to games the provider already had the rights to in-market, but that you would still not see games the provider did not carry in-market.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

Willh said:


> That "Some Music" channel would be Fuse, which Dish removed this past summer. so basically, don't expect to see any MSG owned network back on Dish anytime soon, you might want to change providers.


FUSE is not the only music channel which DISH has removed... This week we also lost HTV (Ch. 870) the popular US-based Hispanic music video network, also over a contract dispute... HTV had been on DISH since at least 1998, one of the original 4 Hispanic tier channels which DISH had pioneered ahead of DTV...

During the last 2 weeks DISH had replaced HTV with a re-mapping of Tele-Hit (Ch.868) and had said in the "Guide Info" that they were negotiating a new contract with HTV.... Suddenly, on Wed. afternoon Ch. 870 just got deleted and nothing replaced HTV... No substitute channel added nor any further explanation given nor any on-air video by DISH executives ...

Unlike FUSE, HTV is independent and thus, does not have an MSG-type leverage it could use to get added again... Nor does it own sports channels (like Fox and MSG) which could put added pressure on DISH...

Perhaps DBS Talk should open a 3rd DISH Contract Dispute thread, this one over HTV's disappearance....


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

E91 said:


> Are you sure of this? I eventually dropped DISH because their CI package almost never included NY Islander games in HD. I was always told this was due to the fact that DISH didn't have MSG HD and thus did not have the right to broadcast those games.


It is the NHL's rights out of market ... perhaps there is some loophole with MSG HD (such as not being on satellite or MSG refusing to authorize a receiver for DISH to receive the feed, despite the NHL's rights).


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

James Long said:


> Rights to carry the NHL games are negotiated between DISH and the NHL ... loss of the rest of the RSN should not affect the ability to carry games DISH has purchased the rights to carry. Local games will probably be lost as the RSN has the rights to those ... but the national NHL CI offering should be unaffected.


While that makes sense and works out well for the NHL and various providers...it just doesn't seem fair to the operators/owners of those RSN's. If there is a carriage dispute and those channels are removed, nothing should be available. If Dish and Fox can't agree, fine. Dish doesn't get the content from those channels and Fox doesn't get access to those Dish subs. That seems fair to me.

Either way, we all know we can call Charlie if we need the name of a decent lawyer. Of course most of them are probably on his payroll already.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hoosier205 said:


> While that makes sense and works out well for the NHL and various providers...it just doesn't seem fair to the operators/owners of those RSN's. If there is a carriage dispute and those channels are removed, nothing should be available. If Dish and Fox can't agree, fine. Dish doesn't get the content from those channels and Fox doesn't get access to those Dish subs. That seems fair to me.


Anything to keep content away from DISH subs?

Don't forget that the league owns the games and the RSNs would not have games to carry if they did not license permission to carry those games. Why should the league be prevented from making a deal with DISH just because an RSN can't come to terms?

The RSN should be happy that they don't have their contracts pulled by the league for not allowing providers to carry the league's content.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

James Long said:


> Anything to keep content away from DISH subs?
> 
> Don't forget that the league owns the games and the RSNs would not have games to carry if they did not license permission to carry those games. Why should the league be prevented from making a deal with DISH just because an RSN can't come to terms?


My my post had nothing to do with a want to keep content away from Dish subs. If you want to pick a fight, look elsewhere. My comments clearly pertained to various providers who may find themselves in this position 



> While that makes sense and works out well for the NHL and *various providers*...it just doesn't seem fair to the operators/owners of those RSN's. If there is a carriage dispute and those channels are removed, nothing should be available.


What other networks can be in a dispute with a service provider and still be forced to make a portion of their content available to that provider? Disney/ABC channels? No. Viacom channels? No. Comcast (non-RSN) channels? No. In my opinion, it removes some degree of leverage that owners/operators of these RSN's have. I don't believe it leaves a level playing field.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hoosier205 said:


> My my post had nothing to do with a want to keep content away from Dish subs. If you want to pick a fight, look elsewhere. My comments clearly pertained to various providers who may find themselves in this position


Perhaps you should quote the rest of your post:


Hoosier205 said:


> If Dish and Fox can't agree, fine. *Dish doesn't get the content from those channels* and Fox doesn't get access to those Dish subs. That seems fair to me.


Seems like you misread your own post if you think it had nothing to do with preventing DISH subs from viewing the content.

BTW: This is the MSG thread.



Hoosier205 said:


> In my opinion, it removes some degree of leverage that owners/operators of these RSN's have. I don't believe it leaves a level playing field.


The deal the RSN made to get the rights to carry the team gives them rights within their own coverage area. No where else.

What your suggesting is more along the lines of a local ABC affiliate who cannot agree with DISH (or any carrier you wish to name) being able to keep ABC programming from being delivered to the entire country. That affiliate only has rights to the content in their defined area. The RSN only has rights to the content in their defined area. Outside that area the rights belong to someone else (other ABC affiliate and the league, respectively).

The RSN maintains leverage where MOST of their viewers actually are ... the local region. Seems fair. They didn't pay the league(s) to control carriage of pro sports outside of their region. They paid the league(s) for their region.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

James Long said:


> Perhaps you should quote the rest of your post:Seems like you misread your own post if you think it had nothing to do with preventing DISH subs from viewing the content.
> 
> BTW: This is the MSG thread.
> 
> ...


 Got it James. If you want to pick a fight, look elsewhere. My post, which I wrote...not you, was not about any desire I have to keep content from Dish subscribers. You apparently did not understand my post. It only consisted of 68 words, but that may have been too complicated. It has been properly explained to you once, once more than should have been necessary I believe. Would this have happened if you were not looking for an opportunity to stir something up? No, probably not.

No content should be available from any network, to any provider...during a dispute they are involved in with each other. That is what I believe would be fair. That is my opinion. Whether or not you agree with it is of no concern to me. Enjoy the rest of you weekend.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hoosier205 said:


> No content should be available from any network, to any provider...during a dispute they are involved in with each other. That is what I believe would be fair. That is my opinion. Whether or not you agree with it is of no concern to me. Enjoy the rest of you weekend.


There is no dispute between the NHL and DISH. No dispute between other parties should interfere with the agreement that the NHL and DISH have. The NHL _retains_ the right to broadcast _their_ games outside of the RSN's region. They have every right to continue to deliver _their_ games to any provider that they have an agreement with, including DISH. The same would apply to any league and any carrier where such a contract between the league and carrier exists.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I have to agree with James on this one... Packages like NHL Center Ice and NBA League Pass are intended to bring you out-of market games that you normally wouldn't get to see.

As long as Dish has a good relationship and permission to sell those packages... then it seems to me it should shake out like this:

1. Your local games are on your local channel or RSN. IF Dish has a dispute with your RSN, then you would NOT get to see your local team. This is no different than usual.

2. Out-of-market games, however, should be available to you as part of the package subscription that Dish has permission to carry and the league has the right to distribute... So, you should get the same out-of-market games even if Dish cannot deliver them to those teams' local markets.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Stewart Vernon said:


> That seems to be the only thing you post... in every dispute thread... over and over.
> 
> Do you have any evidence from past channel disputes?
> 
> I haven't yet heard of large numbers of people leaving Dish over any channel dispute current or in the past.


It wasn't dish but years and years ago, I remember a huge uproar when the local cable (TCI Cablevision at the time) dropped TNN, the nashville network. A huge chunk of the subscriber base dropped and there were antennas put up all over town for the competitor (Heartland) that used what looked like a rack out of an oven on top of a 40' pole.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

James Long said:


> It is the NHL's rights out of market ... perhaps there is some loophole with MSG HD (such as not being on satellite or MSG refusing to authorize a receiver for DISH to receive the feed, despite the NHL's rights).


Cablevision's contention with respect to MSG HD has always been the terrestrial loophole. When that got closed up this year they still refused to do anything about it and Dish sued them back in...July, I believe.

I love the Rangers, but I hate Cablevision and Dolan and everything he's done to destroy my team.


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## Milleruszk (Apr 12, 2005)

Still no movement on the Dish vs MSG front. This is not looking good. Dish has never come to terms with the YES network so I am beginning to think the MSG situation will be handled the same way. :nono2:


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

If they keep *****ing that Dish needs to take Fuse we'll never get it back.


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## Milleruszk (Apr 12, 2005)

Rasputin,

You are right about Dolan....I can't stand looking at that guy. I would listen to the games on the radio than subscribe to Cablevision.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Milleruszk said:


> Rasputin,
> 
> You are right about Dolan....I can't stand looking at that guy. I would listen to the games on the radio than subscribe to Cablevision.


About the only thing that schmuck's done right is to lower ticket prices this season. I actually considered a half-season package.


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## tommiet (Dec 29, 2005)

What's a Buffalo Sabre?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

As a side effect of the Cablevision-Fox dispute with Cablevision calling for arbitration, we have this article:


> The Madison Square Garden Network, which earlier this year was spun off from Cablevision, said Tuesday it is willing to submit its carriage dispute with Dish Network to outside arbitration.
> 
> ..."It is stunning to see how the Cablevision family will flip flop on any issue to achieve their transparent goal of making their own subscribers suffer long enough to force politicians to intervene," said Fox.
> 
> "MSG has never said we would not submit to binding arbitration," countered MSG.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Wow, I'm SHOCKED.`


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

phrelin said:


> As a side effect of the Cablevision-Fox dispute with Cablevision calling for arbitration, we have this article:


This is another article about the entire process and some ideas on how to change things in the future.

this article


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

MSG Networks actually attempted to respond to me on Facebook. They posted another blurb about "The New York Rangers headed north to take on the Boston Bruins, but DISH Network no longer carries MSG Networks. Don't miss any of the action -- Find out how to watch NHL here: IWantMSG.com", so...

Me: Negotiate fairly with Dish and Verizon.
MSG Networks: We understand your frustration. Have you checked out iwantmsg.com for details on what’s happening & to find a TV provider w/MSG Networks?
Me: My TV provider isn't the problem. Your negotiation tactics are. Stop trying to ram Fuse down providers' throats, negotiate fairly with both Dish and Verizon, and stop ignoring the Federal Terrestrial Loophole that was closed 8 months ago. Provide MSG-HD as you've been informed you need to. Then you'll get my money again, along with all of the other Dish subscribers.

*sigh*


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

RasputinAXP said:


> MSG Networks actually attempted to respond to me on Facebook. They posted another blurb about "The New York Rangers headed north to take on the Boston Bruins, but DISH Network no longer carries MSG Networks. Don't miss any of the action -- Find out how to watch NHL here: IWantMSG.com", so...
> 
> Me: Negotiate fairly with Dish and Verizon.
> MSG Networks: We understand your frustration. Have you checked out iwantmsg.com for details on what's happening & to find a TV provider w/MSG Networks?
> ...


Way to tell them - shove the truth down their throats.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I've started a thread in the Sports Programming and Events with the post below as a place to discuss how to do something about the situation:


phrelin said:


> The current disputes between News Corp (Fox) and Cablevision plus News Corp and Dish have given a chance in the spotlight for a one year old group of sports fans trying to become an effective lobby in Washington.
> 
> From the New York Times:
> 
> ...


Rather than respond to this here, go to the Sports Fans Coalition - Your Voice in Washington thread.


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## Milleruszk (Apr 12, 2005)

Has there been any movement on getting this resolved? Are they talking? Going to arbitration? Thanks.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I don't believe either side has updated their websites:
http://www.greedymsg.com/ or http://www.iwantmsg.com/ and http://www.iwantfusetv.com/

That doesn't mean they are not talking, just "no word".


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## kcolg30 (May 11, 2010)




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## Milleruszk (Apr 12, 2005)

Still nothing? This is starting to look like MSG is going to go the way of Yes on Dish.  :nono2:


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

"Milleruszk" said:


> Still nothing? This is starting to look like MSG is going to go the way of Yes on Dish.  :nono2:


Msg is not exactly fair in their negotiation process.


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## Steeloc15 (Oct 2, 2009)

I, for one, love Fuse and wish dish would agree to put in back in the lineup.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH removed the MSG feeds from the satellite just before 3pm ET.
They were there in "test mode" unavailable to customers ... now they are gone.
The temporary sports channels available in the 9600 range were also removed.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

well, crap.


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## Willh (Jan 1, 2009)

James Long said:


> DISH removed the MSG feeds from the satellite just before 3pm ET.
> They were there in "test mode" unavailable to customers ... now they are gone.
> The temporary sports channels available in the 9600 range were also removed.


looks like this dispute may cause some lawsuits, the Fox/Dish dispute came and went, and sadly looks like Fox and Dish can get along better then Cablevision/MSG/Rainbow Media did with Dish, i guess this all dates back to the Voom dispute which killed the Voom channels. i wonder if Dish or the MSG networks are gonna be entering a lawsuit soon, this dispute could be the one that causes a lawsuit.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Willh said:


> looks like this dispute may cause some lawsuits, the Fox/Dish dispute came and went, and sadly looks like Fox and Dish can get along better then Cablevision/MSG/Rainbow Media did with Dish, i guess this all dates back to the Voom dispute which killed the Voom channels. i wonder if Dish or the MSG networks are gonna be entering a lawsuit soon, this dispute could be the one that causes a lawsuit.


I would have agreed with you... except Dish managed to secure AMCHD a couple of months ago... so clearly Dish and Rainbow can agree on some things.


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