# SSD in DVR?



## junzi (Jan 26, 2011)

I own an HR23-700 (not leased!). Still running great after all these years and several HDDs. Currently running a Hitachi Ultrastar HDD 2TB 7200RPM 64MB. Been noticing slow program guide and menu changes. I have a few Solid State Drives and gave them a try:

*Test SSD 1: Worked Great!*
Samsung 850 EVO 500GB. NEW OEM SSD loaded straight into DVR from OEM packaging (no preformat). Result: D*TV software downloaded very fast. Program guide and menus snappy and fast...way faster than the HDD. Dual recording while playback and menu jumping snappy fast. Excellent results. After 10 min I removed it...bc the EVO 850 was destined for my main PC (and working great in the PC now).

*Test SSD 2: No Work*
OCZ Vertex 3 Max IOPS 120GB. Older SSD from main PC since 2012 and worked great in PC. NTFS format with Win7 OS. Installed into DVR, but could not get DVR to initialize the drive. ( I think Error 14-774, but did not write it down). I then used GPT to format the Vertex3 as per main DVR Hitachi HDD = Linux-Swap(600MB), XFS (15GB), and XFS extended for the rest (actually unrecognized by GPT, but expected XFS extended). No work. Tried other formats for fun: Deleted all partitions, XFS single primary, ext3, ext4....no work. Unable to initialize Vertex3 in any format and, of course, reset DVR multiple times in each format.

*Question:*
Does anyone know why the new Samsung EVO 850 500GB SSD worked great but the older Vertex3 120GB did not initialize? Is there a minimum size constraint (HR23-700 OEM is 500GB HDD)? SSD Controller incompatibility?

Note: There are a few posts in the HS17-100 thread stating the dangers of using an SSD in your DVR due to excessive writing. However, I was not able to find data online regarding actual test results from users. I planned on leaving the Vertex3 in the DVR for a few months to see how it did as a test run, but again, I could not get the DVR to initialize it.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

go ahead, spent your time and money [for nothing]
too expensive and due constant writing and no TRIM support from STB FW your SSD will be wear out pretty quickly
when ? you will find soon
also the question been discussed here a few times, in DTV and dish forums and in Computers
we cant hold your hands - do what you want, but negative result is easy predictable if you know aspects of functioning DVR and SSD


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Any replacement or upgrade hard drive must be at least the same capacity as the original drive. Since your HR23 came with a 500GB internal drive, the 500GB SSD can work. But a 128GB drive won't.


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## junzi (Jan 26, 2011)

litzdog911 said:


> Any replacement or upgrade hard drive must be at least the same capacity as the original drive. Since your HR23 came with a 500GB internal drive, the 500GB SSD can work. But a 128GB drive won't.


Thanks! How do you know the drive size can't be lower than the OEM spec? (D*TV literature? your experience? common knowledge?)


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

it's done by try-and-tell method

I did find the edge as 100 GB for e* product OTA DVR TR-50, so you can do same - try 200 GB first

as to "must be" it's still "IMHO" kind of limit


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Did you try a freshly formatted hard drive as well as a "control" test? Maybe using an empty drive was responsible for the performance increase, not the fact it was an SSD? I can't think of any reason why performance of stuff like menus should have anything to do with the speed of your storage. Maybe program guide access would improve, assuming part of it is saved to the hard drive/SSD.

As for wear, that Samsung is rated for 150 TB total writes, or 82 GB/day for five years. If you had two tuners recording full time (do they both buffer 24x7 in a Directv DVR like they do in a Tivo? I don't have any experience with Directv DVRs so I don't know) you can figure out how much they'll write. Directv's average HD channel is about 6.5 Mbps, but let's call it 8 Mbps or 1 MBps to make the math simple. Then it is 2 * 60 * 60 * 24 or 172 GB/day. That means you would hit the rated limit in about 2 1/2 years. However, several people have done long term SSD write lifetime testing and found they _greatly_ outlived their rated lifetime, so you likely would get at least five years out of it. No promises, but there are no guarantees when you buy any hard drive that it will last five years. The SSD Endurance Experiment: They're all dead

If you stuck that SSD in a Genie, if it is on average writing more than two tuners at a time, that would increase the daily writes and wear it out sooner. Hopefully the HS17 will include sufficient built in flash that it stores only recordings and nothing else on the hard drive. If so, using an SSD won't have any impact on its overall performance.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

I once had the drive die in an HR24-200 and the only thing I had laying around that would fit was an original msata 64GB drive from a dell laptop. Installed it with sata to msata adapter. HR24 formatted and booted, system was quick but it wouldn't record anything. It was a stop-gap just to allow the viewing of live TV until I could get a replacement.


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## junzi (Jan 26, 2011)

slice1900 said:


> Did you try a freshly formatted hard drive as well as a "control" test? Maybe using an empty drive was responsible for the performance increase, not the fact it was an SSD?


I will do that and get some SMART data. Is there a recommended file system for formatting the drive, such as XFS extended, or all partition delete and leave drive unallocated? My understanding is that D*TV DVR will format it anyway so it does not matter. I also plan to get a smaller 1TB drive with less power consumption better suited to the DVR and my viewing habits (WD Red, Purple, etc...still considering options) bc the old Hitachi is noisy & hot; will post result of new drive when I get it for reference.



> I can't think of any reason why performance of stuff like menus should have anything to do with the speed of your storage. Maybe program guide access would improve, assuming part of it is saved to the hard drive/SSD.


Yes, I would think the menus & program data would easily fit the onboard RAM. However, there is a 500-600 MB Linux Swap partition on the DVR HDD that must be for virtual RAM paging. _My usage requirements are light to normal: Series recordings number about 12, first run only, keep only one; custom channel list 48; total HD hours recorded < 30; only one DVR in the house. Subscription includes Premier + various sports packages (~800 channels I get)._ I don't know the HR23-700 memory requirements for standard menu & program data in 2017, but I have symptoms of the DVR using a lot of virtual RAM--like an old x86 P4 at 100% CPU. When the guide shows ads for PPV & ads, the page jump function & other guide operations slow down. The best solution to avoid virtual ram paging would be to turn off DVR features I don't use that are soaking up ram--like those pesky stealth ads. The faster 850 EVO SSD may have greatly helped in accessing the Linux Swap partition. My menus get slower during single recording, even slower during dual tuner recording, even slower during dual record + playback...all symptoms of taxed CPU and/or virtual RAM. There is also a 15Gb XFS partition, but not sure what that is storing other than my settings. In sum, I have an older HDD, the HR23-700 is an older DVR, and the latest software updates usually include enriched features that invariably require more RAM, cpu power, and bandwidth; perhaps all of these are contributing factors to the bedeviling paradigm of planned obsolescence.



> As for wear, that Samsung is rated for 150 TB total writes, or 82 GB/day for five years...


:thumbsup:Thx. Excellent info.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

By "freshly formatted" I meant more just making sure that it didn't have anything existing from a previous use in a Directv receiver. Probably just zeroing the first 100MB would be good enough, no partition table, no evidence of a boot partition. You just want the receiver to treat it like an empty drive you just bought and create filesystems etc. itself.

I'm sure that swap partition was just created as a default. There's no way it is paging 500MB back and forth to the drive or it would be taking minutes to respond sometimes. If they're smart they'd have swap disabled - it isn't like receivers are able to swap so why should a DVR need to?

I would think it would carry all it needs in RAM, since obviously receivers have no alternative but RAM and maybe storing some in flash/NVRAM. But I have no experience with Directv DVRs and others insist that it does save part of the guide data plus data required for searches to the drive.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> others insist that it does save part of the guide data plus data required for searches to the drive.


actually much more - whole APG (NIT,SDT.EPG,EEPG....), search data, logs...
SWAP is probably just Linux typical format, just in case if the DVR's OS would really need to swap something (I did look into the partition a few times - seen nothing, perhaps heavy load would use it)


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> I would think it would carry all it needs in RAM, since obviously receivers have no alternative but RAM and maybe storing some in flash/NVRAM. But I have no experience with Directv DVRs and others insist that it does save part of the guide data plus data required for searches to the drive.


If you do a single, clean reboot, you still have all the guide data for 2 weeks, so it has to be storing all that stuff somewhere. It really doesn't make sense to keep 2 full weeks of data in memory. Think of the advanced guide info too... ratings from 2 places, full cast info, thumbnails, etc.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Right, the guide data is stored in a database, and if there is a change, that entry is rewritten. If I remember correctly, there was a point where it was just in memory, but that was something like 10 years ago.

Also note that (if I recall correctly), regular receivers only get a week's worth of guide.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

dpeters11 said:


> Also note that (if I recall correctly), regular receivers only get a week's worth of guide.


Because they have the databases keep in RAM


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Do they keep them in RAM or flash/NVRAM? In order to completely clear a receiver, you need to do the same double reboot trick, though I haven't looked to see how much of the guide survives the first reboot. I rarely have any need to look more than a few hours ahead in the guide.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

NVRAM does keep very small data, most of it's flags


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Because they have the databases keep in RAM


Right, guide data in RAM on receivers, hard drive on DVRs.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Do they keep them in RAM or flash/NVRAM? In order to completely clear a receiver, you need to do the same double reboot trick, though I haven't looked to see how much of the guide survives the first reboot. I rarely have any need to look more than a few hours ahead in the guide.


I don't believe it does survive one reboot, but it loads the data pretty quickly. When I had a receiver hooked up, it wasn't used much for live tv so the guide was mainly used to set recordings remotely.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> Do they keep them in RAM or flash/NVRAM? In order to completely clear a receiver, you need to do the same double reboot trick, though I haven't looked to see how much of the guide survives the first reboot. I rarely have any need to look more than a few hours ahead in the guide.


it could be a special trick, system knows how many reboots it did and treat two subsequent as sign to clean some system data


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## CTJon (Feb 5, 2007)

may store a copy in RAM - but also stored on other memory


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

CTJon said:


> may store a copy in RAM - but also stored on other memory


hope you know how the STB working, regardless the meaningless post


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## kucharsk (Sep 20, 2006)

The bottom line is that DVRs are constantly scribbling to the hard drive, which is the very worst use case for any SSD given the limited number of writes they can perform.

On the other hand, this is the perfect use case for a normal hard drive which can be rewritten virtually forever until the mechanicals fail.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

If he insist on spending a lot of money for short living project, let be it !


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Remember when you reboot a receiver it takes like 10 minutes of loading to get back up and running. You at least have some guide data loaded then. On cable operators running iGuide, a reboot will get you back to live TV in under 30 seconds, but there will be NO guide data or interactive features for some time.

I know DTV receivers take awhile to boot, but maybe that has some purpose.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

So if it is writing all the guide data to the hard drive, why shouldn't a DVR boot much more quickly - it could check the 'last update' time for the guide data on the drive, and so long as it is up to date it could skip a lot of that crap and be up and running quickly.

Granted reboots are rare so they don't care how long they take, but it seems silly to have it reload something unnecessarily.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> So if it is writing all the guide data to the hard drive, why shouldn't a DVR boot much more quickly - it could check the 'last update' time for the guide data on the drive, and so long as it is up to date it could skip a lot of that crap and be up and running quickly.
> 
> Granted reboots are rare so they don't care how long they take, but it seems silly to have it reload something unnecessarily.


The time taken mostly for scan all APG tpns and sitting on each to collect all SI tables, then database will be updated if FW will find new records


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> So if it is writing all the guide data to the hard drive, why shouldn't a DVR boot much more quickly - .


They do boot much after now, an HR44/54 boots up in like 2 to 3 minutes. The last step which was to quite guide data only takes a couple of seconds now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

nope, still require same time - a few minutes, what depend on signal level/errors on APG tpns and a time, sometime it need to wait when it start a burst of APG data [aka SDT and EIT]


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## rodnig1 (May 31, 2011)

I have had my crucial 1TB SSD in my Directivo THR22-100 for well over 4 years, and its working great. no issues at all with the drive. i did this mainly to eliminate the HD noise in my bedroom while trying to sleep


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

rodnig1 said:


> I have had my crucial 1TB SSD in my Directivo THR22-100 for well over 4 years, and its working great. no issues at all with the drive. i did this mainly to eliminate the HD noise in my bedroom while trying to sleep


If you would pull SMART data from it ...


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## bur1196 (Dec 4, 2006)

I put an SSD in my HR44 earlier this year and it does boot up quicker, runs cooler, and uses less power...Working great so far...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

bur1196 said:


> I put an SSD in my HR44 earlier this year and it does boot up quicker, runs cooler, and uses less power...Working great so far...


it would be useful to publish SMART data after 6 months or/and one year of using it for the DVR


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

I am a big fan of SSD's. I use them in my laptop and my desktop computers, which results in very fast boot times. But for my DVR, in which I like to have 4TB of storage, a SSD @$1K vs. a standard ESATA hard drive in an external enclosure for $100 is a pretty steep price to pay. The external enclosure keeps the DVR temperatures low, and since a re-boot is rare (at least in my case), the increased speed doesn't justify the price difference, IMO.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bur1196 said:


> I put an SSD in my HR44 earlier this year and it does boot up quicker, runs cooler, and uses less power...Working great so far...


What is the capacity of the SSD? Brand?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> I am a big fan of SSD's. I use them in my laptop and my desktop computers, which results in very fast boot times. But for my DVR, in which I like to have 4TB of storage, a SSD @$1K vs. a standard ESATA hard drive in an external enclosure for $100 is a pretty steep price to pay. The external enclosure keeps the DVR temperatures low, and since a re-boot is rare (at least in my case), the increased speed doesn't justify the price difference, IMO.


Yeah, too expensive with not enough of a return. I'd like to put one in a 24 tho. My 44 is fast enough. My 24s could use the boost.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bur1196 said:


> I put an SSD in my HR44 earlier this year and it does boot up quicker, runs cooler, and uses less power...Working great so far...


How is it mounted in the 44? I'd think that could be a problem.

Rich


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## PokerJoker (Apr 12, 2008)

Rich said:


> How is it mounted in the 44? I'd think that could be a problem.
> 
> Rich


Those things are so light you can mount them with velcro or double-sided tape.


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## PokerJoker (Apr 12, 2008)

Rich said:


> Yeah, too expensive with not enough of a return. I'd like to put one in a 24 tho. My 44 is fast enough. My 24s could use the boost.
> 
> Rich


My HR44 used to be fast enough. Until the new GUI was forced upon it. Now it is about the same as my HR24.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

PokerJoker said:


> Those things are so light you can mount them with velcro or double-sided tape.


I understand your feeling about SSD , but as EE, I would like to hear the SSD's voice  - how it's working ? its SMART data would tell us ...


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

PokerJoker said:


> My HR44 used to be fast enough. Until the new GUI was forced upon it. Now it is about the same as my HR24.


Honestly, I don't use my 44 enough to notice. I kinda like the new GUI. I can see why folks get frustrated with it. Much more interesting than the old version, I think.

Rich


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

Wonder if SSD would speed up an old HR21...

If I ever get my hands on one (even for any other use) I'd first drop it in the 21's dock and see what happens.

I think I'd consider the expense vs time waiting for commands to execute - might be worth it!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

it's more complicated and mostly related to small RAM and slow CPU


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## DTiVo (Aug 3, 2018)

My experience with a THR22-100 and SSD versus spinning drive.
The more programming, Wish Lists (WL's) and Season Passes (SP's) on my old spinning 500G drive the slower searches became to the point of absurdity -- as well as navigating time to and within menus to a lesser extent. It is known that the THR22 has an older/slower processor. It was already obsolete when the unit came out as proper TiVo's had moved on almost a year prior and the cable provider in my area stinks. But to me the List Guide, unavailable on any other DVR to my knowledge, is worth it. You don't know how indispensable it is until you get used to its speed of breezing through days and weeks of programming then go to a hotel and have to use a grid guide.
I put in Samsung 500G SSD in Sept 2016 -- same size as orig spinning drive since I never filled it up. Loaded all WL's ans SP's. Like the experience of the originator of this thread search times became almost instant and menu navigation did become instant. Boot-up from restart way faster.
Fast Forward to May 2018. Started getting programming glitches that looked like analog signal interference from cloud cover when no cloud cover was present at the recording (I live in Phoenix where there is no cloud cover in May). Also started having occasional menu lock-ups on doing a return to previous screen or delete program - like 45 seconds! 
Bought a new Samsung 860EVO 1TB (twice the size as old one) and haven't put it in yet. Tried something as experiment before installing new SSD: I went to the "Deleted" folder and chose to "permanently delete" everything there, then waited for programming to replace itself. No glitches have shown up on newly recorded shows, and the long menu delays are also gone.
I'm tentatively concluding that after 2 years of use of the SSD, with it being on average half full of programming, it was accumulating "bad sectors" sufficient to negatively affect flawless recording - as well as accomplish internal menu functions. And by permanently deleting watched programs rather than allowing them to accumulate in the "Deleted" folder where they remain able to be recovered the drive has more "usable" space in which to put new programming and perform internal operational functions.
The new 1TB SSD with twice the space (and the same cost as the old 500G after 2 years) I hope will provide another 2 years of fast service (well-worth the expense to me). Time will tell if anything will change on glitches in 2 years as a result of more space - or if the Linux system will just allow more shows to accumulate in the Deleted folder and the same thing will happen without permanently deleting them along the way.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

If you would post SMART data from the 500GB SSD ...


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

DTiVo said:


> My experience with a THR22-100 and SSD versus spinning drive.
> The more programming, Wish Lists (WL's) and Season Passes (SP's) on my old spinning 500G drive the slower searches became to the point of absurdity -- as well as navigating time to and within menus to a lesser extent. It is known that the THR22 has an older/slower processor. It was already obsolete when the unit came out as proper TiVo's had moved on almost a year prior and the cable provider in my area stinks. But to me the List Guide, unavailable on any other DVR to my knowledge, is worth it. You don't know how indispensable it is until you get used to its speed of breezing through days and weeks of programming then go to a hotel and have to use a grid guide.
> I put in Samsung 500G SSD in Sept 2016 -- same size as orig spinning drive since I never filled it up. Loaded all WL's ans SP's. Like the experience of the originator of this thread search times became almost instant and menu navigation did become instant. Boot-up from restart way faster.
> Fast Forward to May 2018. Started getting programming glitches that looked like analog signal interference from cloud cover when no cloud cover was present at the recording (I live in Phoenix where there is no cloud cover in May). Also started having occasional menu lock-ups on doing a return to previous screen or delete program - like 45 seconds!
> ...


Just checked the price of your new SSD. Much less than I thought it would be. Just a bit more than $200, not bad. BTW, the same thing happens on D*'s other DVRs, the more you fill the HDD the slower they get. Couple that with the firmware updates and...they get slow.

Interesting post.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Rich said:


> Just checked the price of your new SSD. Much less than I thought it would be. Just a bit more than $200, not bad. BTW, the same thing happens on D*'s other DVRs, the more you fill the HDD the slower they get. Couple that with the firmware updates and...they get slow.
> 
> Interesting post.
> 
> Rich


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## DTiVo (Aug 3, 2018)

P Smith said:


> If you would post SMART data from the 500GB SSD ...


Sorry. I don't know how to do that.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

download smartcontrol tool from GSmartControl :: Downloads, connect the SSD to the PC and run the tool
you can try on your main HDD of the PC to see how it works

The tool is read-only, not changing anything on your PC!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> *download smartcontrol tool from GSmartControl :: Downloads, connect the SSD to the PC and run the tool
> you can try on your main HDD of the PC to see how it works*
> 
> The tool is read-only, not changing anything on your PC!


A miracle!!!

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

rodnig1 said:


> I have had my crucial 1TB SSD in my Directivo THR22-100 for well over 4 years, and its working great. no issues at all with the drive. i did this mainly to eliminate the HD noise in my bedroom while trying to sleep


Just started this thread: What happens if I put a 1TB SSD in my HR44-700? Be nice if you could contribute.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bur1196 said:


> I put an SSD in my HR44 earlier this year and it does boot up quicker, runs cooler, and uses less power...Working great so far...


Just started this thread: What happens if I put a 1TB SSD in my HR44-700? Be nice if you could contribute.

Rich


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## Soulweeper (Jan 10, 2005)

rodnig1 said:


> I have had my crucial 1TB SSD in my Directivo THR22-100 for well over 4 years, and its working great. no issues at all with the drive. i did this mainly to eliminate the HD noise in my bedroom while trying to sleep


Do you remember if you used a 'sled' to mount the SSD? Reason I ask is, I was told it will float in there(HR24) with the stiffness of the cables, but the original HDD has these grounding clips that I would assume need to be reinstalled, and makes sense they would attach to the sled.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

If the sled could accommodate the SSD, go with it. 
No need to set the ground clip, but I would keep it in place j/c


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