# CES2008: AM21 - ATSC Tuner Add-On for the HR21



## Earl Bonovich

Here is the official information for the AM21...

*Product brochure: Thanks to Ratara for scanning in all the brochures*
Front
Back

*Images:*
_Coming Soon_


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## bobnielsen

HDMI cable? What is that for?


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## Greg Alsobrook

man... that thing looks good... kudos directv...


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## Jeremy W

bobnielsen said:


> HDMI cable? What is that for?


Typo, should say USB.


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## Tom Robertson

The current pricing information we have from Robert at Valueelectonics is that the MSRP will be $59.

The AM21 is expected to be GA at the end of February.

And it will work on the H21, tho not immediately. A new software release cycle will be needed for the H21 family.

I don't know about the HR20 yet.

Cheers,
Tom


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## DBSNewbie

With the AM21's dual tuners, will a HR21/AM21 combo allow the user to record 4 programs at the same time (2 Sat and 2 OTA) or will it be just like the HR20, where one could record 2 programs and watch a 3rd (providing all 3 programs are not all SAT or OTA)?


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## tony4d

You've got to hand it to them, they made a smart decision with the hr21 and this thing. They solved their problem perfectly. If you want/need OTA, then pay for it.

I'm impressed too, the solution looks good and is pretty seemless.


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## Tom Robertson

It will be just like an HR20, only 2 items recording plus a DoD download at the same time.

The AM21/HR21 menus will even look more like the HR20s.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Radio Enginerd

Tom Robertson said:


> It will be just like an HR20, only 2 items recording plus a DoD download at the same time.
> 
> The AM21/HR21 menus will even look more like the HR20s.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


To add: I was also told today the AM21 uses an entirely new chipset to that of the HR20 and H20 line. Although I have not confirmed. I wanted to but was afraid they'd kick me out of the booth if I tried to open the AM21.


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## Radio Enginerd

Tom Robertson said:


> The current pricing information we have from Robert at Valueelectonics is that the MSRP will be $59.
> 
> The AM21 is expected to be GA at the end of February.
> 
> And it will work on the H21, tho not immediately. A new software release cycle will be needed for the H21 family.
> 
> I don't know about the HR20 yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


That price point sounds right.

I hadn't heard the $59 MSRP today but was reassured it would be sub $100.


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## OverThereTooMuch

I was hoping for something bigger. 


Yeah, looks great, but WAY too big for what it does.

Like the price though. Seems pretty cheap actually.


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## Tom Robertson

I'm suspecting most of the space is to make a unit that compliments the H21/HR21 nicely.


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## Radio Enginerd

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm suspecting most of the space is to make a unit that compliments the H21/HR21 nicely.


From working with retail stores I can tell you that most folks like something that's stackable. Since it follows the same form factor as the HR21 it can be easily paired and displayed in any Home Theater rack.

Now all DirecTV has to do is add rack ears to the HR21 and AM21 boxes.


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## Doug Brott

Here's a PDF I just scanned in for you guys :grin: ..


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## OverThereTooMuch

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm suspecting most of the space is to make a unit that compliments the H21/HR21 nicely.


Yeah, I see the point of that. I thought it was a lot taller than 1" judging by the pic. Guess I should actually read the specs before complaining :lol:


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## frederic1943

I wonder if you could use one of those $40 coupons that the government is going to give out when buying the AM21.


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## Maruuk

It is pretty huge, but that $59 would help a lot. I smell a $99 price though. But it would be way smart of DTV to sell at cost, or a little above. At $59, it would go a long way to diffuse the reasonable argument that "why should I have to pay extra for what the HD-LIL or especially the HR20 folks get for free?". I hope this doesn't mean they are immediately discontinuing the HR20 swapouts!


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## MIJBFAN

With all that space it would be cool if they could add a cooling fan also to help cool the HR21.


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## bb37

frederic1943 said:


> I wonder if you could use one of those $40 coupons that the government is going to give out when buying the AM21.


The NTIA's list of "Authorized Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes" appears here. The Echostar TR-40 appears on the list, but it's more of a standalone converter. If the AM21 only works as an add-on to the HR20/HR21, the NTIA may not approve it for coupon reimbursement.


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## jkast

Wonder if it will work as tuners for a windows MCE configuration?


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## r1ga

Thumbs up to DirecTV for this unit.


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## Thaedron

Very nice work DirecTV, this looks to be an excellent piece of equipment!

Excellent reporting to the DBSTalk crew, thanks for your efforts!


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## turey22

how will the am21 connect to the hr21?


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## Earl Bonovich

turey22 said:


> how will the am21 connect to the hr21?


USB


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## Earl Bonovich

frederic1943 said:


> I wonder if you could use one of those $40 coupons that the government is going to give out when buying the AM21.


It will not, as it is an add-on to a system that is not eligible for the coupon.


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## Earl Bonovich

jkast said:


> Wonder if it will work as tuners for a windows MCE configuration?


No, it is a custom add-on for teh HR21.

So unless DirecTV releases some drivers for other systems (which I doubt) it will only work with the HR21


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## Indiana627

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't know about the HR20 yet.


Why would it need to be used with an HR20? Maybe the AM21 has better tuners than the HR20? Though I think the my HR20-100 OTA tuners are quite good.


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## turey22

thank u


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## Lee L

Looks nice. I agree this is a good solution long term, too bad they were not able to get it out a few months ago.

I also think that it was the correct decision to make it full width. It is such a pain to stack machines that are different and sometimes you have to put things in a bad pace heat wise due to the size. I'm sure there is a bunch of air space in there, but I wonder if it will also be good as it will seperate some heat sources somewhat if designed right.


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## Spanky_Partain

Will the AM21 actually scan for signals and add in what it finds or will we be stuck with the traditional Directv zip code OTA like the HR20?

EDIT
Sure miss that feature that is present on my HD Samsung receiver.


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## bnglbill

OverThereTooMuch said:


> I was hoping for something bigger.
> 
> Yeah, looks great, but WAY too big for what it does.
> 
> Like the price though. Seems pretty cheap actually.


Yeah, definately way bigger than I expected but as Tom says, it does compliment the receiver nicely.


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## bnglbill

Spanky_Partain said:


> Will the AM21 actually scan for signals and add in what it finds or will we be stuck with the traditional Directv zip code OTA like the HR20?
> 
> EDIT
> Sure miss that feature that is present on my HD Samsung receiver.


Good Question, we can only hope so.


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## Earl Bonovich

Spanky_Partain said:


> Will the AM21 actually scan for signals and add in what it finds or will we be stuck with the traditional Directv zip code OTA like the HR20?
> 
> EDIT
> Sure miss that feature that is present on my HD Samsung receiver.


99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% chance that it will work identical to the way it is on the HR20...

Why? Same top level software.
But since I haven't asked, or confirmed, or haven't tried it myself...... I leave that tiny sliver of possibility


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## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Here's a PDF I just scanned in for you guys :grin: ..


Thanks Doug.

Earl - this unit weights 4 lbs...so it is actually very light and the size is a perfect compliment to the HR21. (It would fit perfectly in my equipment rack) .

Did they say anything about dates on general availability? [_I would have thought some of the traditional field testing might take place before that timeframe_]

Oh Yeah Earl - one last question - what the heck are you doing up so early!!!!


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## jefbal99

Any chances of a lower cost, single tuner model for the H21?


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## Earl Bonovich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks Doug.
> 
> Earl - this unit weights 4 lbs...so it is actually very light and the size is a perfect compliment to the HR21. (It would fit perfectly in my equipment rack) .
> 
> Did they say anything about dates on general availability? [_I would have thought some of the traditional field testing might take place before that timeframe_]
> 
> Oh Yeah Earl - one last question - what the heck are you doing up so early!!!!


To the first question:
No dates, other then soon.

As for being up.... you know that real job that people don't think I have... but it had a "real" wake up call of 7am Chicago time, to do some real work... even though I am here on vacation


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## Earl Bonovich

jefbal99 said:


> Any chances of a lower cost, single tuner model for the H21?


I just don't see it happening.

With all the other options that are going to be out there 
-) Cheaper Stand Alone tuners
-) Built into TV's ect

The chances of there being an add-on for the H21 is very small.


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## bakerfall

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, it is a custom add-on for teh HR21.
> 
> So unless DirecTV releases some drivers for other systems (which I doubt) it will only work with the HR21


You really wouldn't need (or want) this for MCE either. There are tons of HD-OTA tuner cards out there, which can probably be had cheaper than this.


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## hdtvfan0001

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for being up.... you know that real job that people don't think I have... but it had a "real" wake up call of 7am Chicago time, to do some real work... even though I am here on vacation


Now every time I watch that Superman II HD DVD, I'm going to inevitably envision your face on that guy...


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## waynebtx

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now every time I watch that Superman II HD DVD, I'm going to inevitably envision your face on that guy...


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Doug Brott

Maruuk said:


> It is pretty huge, but that $59 would help a lot. I smell a $99 price though. But it would be way smart of DTV to sell at cost, or a little above. At $59, it would go a long way to diffuse the reasonable argument that "why should I have to pay extra for what the HD-LIL or especially the HR20 folks get for free?". I hope this doesn't mean they are immediately discontinuing the HR20 swapouts!


I was there when Robert asked the question .. the $59 is the cost to you, not the cost to DIRECTV from my understanding.


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## bhelton71

I noticed this has an on/off button - couldn't tell if it actually has an IR port. If so, does the same remote code to put the HR21 to sleep also power this down ?


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## Earl Bonovich

bhelton71 said:


> I noticed this has an on/off button - couldn't tell if it actually has an IR port. If so, does the same remote code to put the HR21 to sleep also power this down ?


Highly likely (or it would get a signal via the USB connection)


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## christo76

bakerfall said:


> You really wouldn't need (or want) this for MCE either. There are tons of HD-OTA tuner cards out there, which can probably be had cheaper than this.


Not really. Most cards are over $75, especially for dual tuners that typically put you over $100. Hybrid Tuners don't work with MCE, so that knocks out a lot of them. And then you have to deal with ones that are lower quality and give iffy reception. I have given up trying for a good decent dual tuner card for now. And was actually hoping this might work.


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## Doug Brott

MIJBFAN said:


> With all that space it would be cool if they could add a cooling fan also to help cool the HR21.


Would not do much .. the HR21 does not vent from the top. Besides, it would increase the cost of the the box.

One thing to consider is that with all of the extra space in the AM21, heat dissipation should be more easy to manage.


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## Thaedron

Earl Bonovich said:


> I just don't see it happening.
> 
> With all the other options that are going to be out there
> -) Cheaper Stand Alone tuners
> -) Built into TV's ect
> 
> The chances of there being an add-on for the H21 is very small.


Did we confirm whether this will work on the H21 or not?

If the AM21 works on both the H21 and the HR21 (and presumably any future models), I can't imagine that DirecTV would spend any more energy or money towards a single tuner model that is maybe $20 (?) less, given the assumed market penetration such a device would get. They would be better off discounting the AM21 for a household that had an H21 and no HR21. (At least that's the direction I would go, were I in charge of such decisions at DirecTV).


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## Doug Brott

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for being up.... you know that real job that people don't think I have... but it had a "real" wake up call of 7am Chicago time, to do some real work... even though I am here on vacation


Oh, and I watched Earl log in and check the backups while we were eating breakfast yesterday .. :grin:


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## Thaedron

Doug Brott said:


> Would not do much .. the HR21 does not vent from the top. Besides, it would increase the cost of the the box.
> 
> One thing to consider is that with all of the extra space in the AM21, heat dissipation should be more easy to manage.


Another fan == more cost AND more noise. Unless this thing is like a sauna inside, omitting the fan was a good call IMO.


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## Doug Brott

jefbal99 said:


> Any chances of a lower cost, single tuner model for the H21?





Earl Bonovich said:


> I just don't see it happening.
> 
> With all the other options that are going to be out there
> -) Cheaper Stand Alone tuners
> -) Built into TV's ect
> 
> The chances of there being an add-on for the H21 is very small.


We have been told that the AM21 should at some point work with the H21, though. Since the market is already small, there shouldn't be a need to have a single tuner OTA device for the H21, but the second tuner would go wasted nonetheless.

Now, the form factor consideration would not be so good with the H21 and the only real reason to have that ability would be to use the DIRECTV guide information and not have to switch inputs .. otherwise, since the H21 is a single-tuner anyway, OTA could plug directly into the H21.

I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the coming months.


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## boba

It sucks this is just another piece of leased equipment we are being asked to pay for. If they had designed the HR21 correctly there would be no need for extra components and price.


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## bwclark

Ok, as a potential new customer to DirectTV that needs OTA antenna connection to the HR21, this appears perfect!  

1) My OTA digital statiions are all SD not HD that is mentioned in the brochure...it will still work right?

2) Do, I run the coax from the antenna directly to the coax input on the AM21? No need for an amplifier at the antenna.....about 100' of run....no antenna yet but checking what I need. 

Cable Guy


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## jefbal99

bwclark said:


> Ok, as a potential new customer to DirectTV that needs OTA antenna connection to the HR21, this appears perfect!
> 
> 1) My OTA digital statiions are all SD not HD that is mentioned in the brochure...it will still work right?
> 
> 2) Do, I run the coax from the antenna directly to the coax input on the AM21? No need for an amplifier at the antenna.....about 100' of run....no antenna yet but checking what I need.
> 
> Cable Guy


This will work fine for any digital station, SD or HD

Depends on how far away the transmitters are from your location. I would try it out w/o an amp to start and see what kind of reception your get. If you are not happy, they try out an amp.


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## jefbal99

boba said:


> It sucks this is just another piece of leased equipment we are being asked to pay for. If they had designed the HR21 correctly there would be no need for extra components and price.


That is a great question, will this be owned or leased? I can't see an application outside of the H/HR21s, but at $59.00 that seems like a purchase price.


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## Indiana627

jefbal99 said:



> That is a great question, will this be owned or leased? I can't see an application outside of the H/HR21s, but at $59.00 that seems like a purchase price.


$299 for the HR20/HR21 sounds like a purchase price to me, but it's leased.


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## whodini99

Do the OTA tuners tend to work with unencrypted local Comcast? Right now I've got an additional line going straight into my TV and get the local HDs just fine. Would this work with an HR20 (I have an HR21)? Do we think it'll work with the AM21?


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## Sirshagg

tony4d said:


> You've got to hand it to them, they made a smart decision with the hr21 and this thing. They solved their problem perfectly. If you want/need OTA, then pay for it.
> 
> I'm impressed too, the solution looks good and is pretty seemless.


Agreed, except for the timing - this and the HR21 should have been released at the same time.


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## Earl Bonovich

Sirshagg said:


> Agreed, except for the timing - this and the HR21 should have been released at the same time.


Why?

And make the very large number of people that are using an HR21, that have no desire for an ATSC tuner... wait?

Or DirecTV to continue manufacturing a unit that costs them more, with a feature that a large population will not use?

While obviously it would have been advantageous to have both at the same time.... in the bigger picture...

The HR21 has been serving the population it was designed for... very well since it's release.


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## hdtvfan0001

Sirshagg said:


> Agreed, except for the timing - this and the HR21 should have been released at the same time.


I just don't see the urgency...there are plenty of HR20's out there in the field and still more being sent out daily.

This is a very nice optional accessory for those needing OTA, but the timing wasn't urgent" either way.


Doug Brott said:


> Oh, and I watched Earl log in and check the backups while we were eating breakfast yesterday .. :grin:


Why doesn't that surprise me...he must have caffeine in his veins or something. :lol:


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## richlife

I think this is fine, no problems with price and I have the HR21. My question is just how good is the tuner. We all know that the HR20 ATSC tuners suck compared to most good HDTV tuners. If this tuner is good, I will buy (lease) -- if the reports are that it's comparable to the HR20, forget it. (Of course, for all you city dwellers who don't care, this probably isn't a concern at all.)


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## Sirshagg

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why?
> 
> And make the very large number of people that are using an HR21, that have no desire for an ATSC tuner... wait?
> 
> Or DirecTV to continue manufacturing a unit that costs them more, with a feature that a large population will not use?
> 
> While obviously it would have been advantageous to have both at the same time.... in the bigger picture...
> 
> The HR21 has been serving the population it was designed for... very well since it's release.


The problem is that people who have needed OTA have been getting HR21's and not HR20's.

It would be fine to release the two products at different times if they could have given people who need OTA HR20's.


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## Indiana627

richlife said:


> I think this is fine, no problems with price and I have the HR21. My question is just how good is the tuner. We all know that the HR20 ATSC tuners suck compared to most good HDTV tuners. If this tuner is good, I will buy (lease) -- if the reports are that it's comparable to the HR20, forget it. (Of course, for all you city dwellers who don't care, this probably isn't a concern at all.)


I'm VERY happy with the OTA tuner in my HR20-100. MUCH better than my old HR10-250 and comparable to my Sony TV tuner. Are there better ones out there? Probably. But I wouldn't classify the HR20 OTA tuners like that (unless you have an HR20-700 and its tuners are different than my -100).


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## hdtvfan0001

Indiana627 said:


> I'm VERY happy with the OTA tuner in my HR20-100. MUCH better than my old HR10-250 and comparable to my Sony TV tuner. Are there better ones out there? Probably. But I wouldn't classify the HR20 OTA tuners like that (unless you have an HR20-700 and its tuners are different than my -100).


Agreed. I have 2 HR20-700's with OTA tuners that work extremely well getting all the OTA locals, including secondary channels, with 92-100 signals - despite being 30+ miles from some of the towers.

If the AM21 is anywhere near these, it will be a plug and play solution for OTA reception.

Since these are just coming out in 2008, I would guess the tuners would be newer and more than likely better, as opposed to less receptive. The same thing happened in the migration of the sat tuners in the HR20 and HR21 DVR series - newer tuners - better signal levels (although only a slight improvement).


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## houskamp

I'm just surprized it's 59$... If Directv read the thread here they would have seen we'd have paid 99$ :lol: They missed out on 40$ profit :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001

houskamp said:


> I'm just surprized it's 59$... If Directv read the thread here they would have seen we'd have paid 99$ :lol: They missed out on 40$ profit :lol:


Don't go there....  :lol:


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## tcusta00

Hey everyone - first post, been reading around here for a few weeks. You have a great forum here packed with knowledgeable people and information.

I had been a happy D* customer for years until we bought our new house with no line of sight to the satellites - dealt with Comcast and constant tiliing/pixelating (read: 5-10 minutes of it per hour of programming on _all_ channels, digital, HD, and analog) for about a year and finally called a local electronics shops that does D* installs and they found a spot for a pole mounted dish. I think I may have hugged the installer that day, but it's all a blur.

Anyway, long story short, I'm back with an HR21. The question I have is, should I jump to an HR20 so I can use the OTA tuners? (Yes, my local guy has one he can swap out) The main reason I'm considering getting my local HDs OTA is because I'm stilling getting some minor pixelating and artifacts - nothing compared to Comcast though - maybe 10-20 seconds per hour. Call me OCD (which my wife does) but I want as perfect of a picture as I can get. So I have two questions related to the new ATSC Tuner:

1) Will receiving my HD locals OTA improve these issues and/or get me a better picture since I'm assuming D* is compressing the feeds over satellite?

2) I realize this was just announced, but is it worth it (in your opinions) to get the HR20 now or wait a few weeks/months to get the AM21 unit? I don't mind paying the $60. What am I giving up by switching to the HR20 from the HR21 that I may find out I want later?

Thanks in advance for your answers and providing a great forum.


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## Greg Alsobrook

houskamp said:


> I'm just surprized it's 59$... If Directv read the thread here they would have seen we'd have paid 99$ :lol: They missed out on 40$ profit :lol:


*slap*


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## Spanky_Partain

Perhaps the $59 is a fee to get the product and there will be a lease fee on top of that.

Hum....


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## Sirshagg

tcusta00 said:


> Hey everyone - first post, been reading around here for a few weeks. You have a great forum here packed with knowledgeable people and information.
> 
> I had been a happy D* customer for years until we bought our new house with no line of sight to the satellites - dealt with Comcast and constant tiliing/pixelating (read: 5-10 minutes of it per hour of programming on _all_ channels, digital, HD, and analog) for about a year and finally called a local electronics shops that does D* installs and they found a spot for a pole mounted dish. I think I may have hugged the installer that day, but it's all a blur.
> 
> Anyway, long story short, I'm back with an HR21. The question I have is, should I jump to an HR20 so I can use the OTA tuners? (Yes, my local guy has one he can swap out) The main reason I'm considering getting my local HDs OTA is because I'm stilling getting some minor pixelating and artifacts - nothing compared to Comcast though - maybe 10-20 seconds per hour. Call me OCD (which my wife does) but I want as perfect of a picture as I can get. So I have two questions related to the new ATSC Tuner:
> 
> 1) Will receiving my HD locals OTA improve these issues and/or get me a better picture since I'm assuming D* is compressing the feeds over satellite?
> 
> 2) I realize this was just announced, but is it worth it (in your opinions) to get the HR20 now or wait a few weeks/months to get the AM21 unit? I don't mind paying the $60. What am I giving up by switching to the HR20 from the HR21 that I may find out I want later?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your answers and providing a great forum.


Just my $.02, but the only reason I'd take an HR21 over an HR20 right this moment is if I *really* wanted a black receiver instead of silver. Why wait, and pay for, this new box if you could have an HR20 today.


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## tcusta00

Sirshagg said:


> Just my $.02, but the only reason I'd take an HR21 over an HR20 right this moment is if I *really* wanted a black receiver instead of silver. Why wait, and pay for, this new box if you could have an HR20 today.


From what I've read the speculation is that the quality of the tuners in the AM21 will be better than the built-in ones in the HR20...

key word.... speculation?


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## stephenC

Does the AM21 need a line voltage connection for power? USB carries power which should be enough to run the ATSC tuners. I'm just thinking about another power vampire on our grid.


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## rrrick8

From the picture supplied, I only see 1 OTA input. 
SO the signal is split inside to 2 different tuners?


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## hdtvfan0001

Sirshagg said:


> Just my $.02, but the only reason I'd take an HR21 over an HR20 right this moment is if I *really* wanted a black receiver instead of silver. Why wait, and pay for, this new box if you could have an HR20 today.


I have both DVR's and disagree. Yes, the black color is nice, especially when all my other compoents are black as well...but there are more differences as well.

Keep in mind there are years of maturity separating the internal components (including drives and tuners) between the HR20 generation and the HR21 series.

In reality both work very well and have done so for some time. But going forward, the HR21 will be the flagship DVR, with or without the AM21 OTA.


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## GP245

It needs its own AC connection.


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## Radio Enginerd

rrrick8 said:


> From the picture supplied, I only see 1 OTA input.
> SO the signal is split inside to 2 different tuners?


Just like the HR20, 1 OTA input splits to 2 internally.


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## Indiana627

tcusta00 said:


> From what I've read the speculation is that the quality of the tuners in the AM21 will be better than the built-in ones in the HR20...
> 
> key word.... speculation?


IMHO, the HR20 OTA tuners are pretty good, so I don't know how much better the AM21 tuners could be. Also, as far as you 10-20 seconds per hour of pixelation on the D* HD channels, that doesn't sound too bad to me. OTA isn't perfect either and sometimes can be worse than D* depending on your distance from the towers, topography between you and the towers, broadcasting strength of your locals just to name a few.


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## texasbrit

tcusta00 said:


> Hey everyone - first post, been reading around here for a few weeks. You have a great forum here packed with knowledgeable people and information.
> 
> I had been a happy D* customer for years until we bought our new house with no line of sight to the satellites - dealt with Comcast and constant tiliing/pixelating (read: 5-10 minutes of it per hour of programming on _all_ channels, digital, HD, and analog) for about a year and finally called a local electronics shops that does D* installs and they found a spot for a pole mounted dish. I think I may have hugged the installer that day, but it's all a blur.
> 
> Anyway, long story short, I'm back with an HR21. The question I have is, should I jump to an HR20 so I can use the OTA tuners? (Yes, my local guy has one he can swap out) The main reason I'm considering getting my local HDs OTA is because I'm stilling getting some minor pixelating and artifacts - nothing compared to Comcast though - maybe 10-20 seconds per hour. Call me OCD (which my wife does) but I want as perfect of a picture as I can get. So I have two questions related to the new ATSC Tuner:
> 
> 1) Will receiving my HD locals OTA improve these issues and/or get me a better picture since I'm assuming D* is compressing the feeds over satellite?
> 
> 2) I realize this was just announced, but is it worth it (in your opinions) to get the HR20 now or wait a few weeks/months to get the AM21 unit? I don't mind paying the $60. What am I giving up by switching to the HR20 from the HR21 that I may find out I want later?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your answers and providing a great forum.


Welcome to the forums!!

DirecTV takes the OTA HD signal which is in MPEG-2 encoding, and re-encodes it to MPEG-4 for transmission over the satellite. Since both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are "lossy" encoding schemes, the DirecTV HD local can never have a better picture quality than the OTA local (assuming you are using the correct antenna for OTA). At its best, you can't tell the difference between the DirecTV HD local and the local via OTA. Here in DFW, much of the time that is the case. If the DirecTV encoders are not set up optimally, you will see a slight difference. But the picture quality on DirecTV HD locals is excellent.
Also if there are any glitches in the OTA signal, like audio dropouts, these will usually be worse in the DirecTV signal because of longer resync times.
OTA gives you the advantage of being able to view and record digital channels that DirecTV does not deliver. This includes PBS (although DirecTV has announced that PBS is in its future plans), and any subchannels that may be being transmitted in your area - DirecTV does not carry subchannels. The other advantage of having OTA is that you can still receive the signal during severe storms that may knock out the DirecTV signal.

I have two HR20s and an HR21. There are no significant differences between them other than not having OTA on the HR21. The HR20s do get new features slightly earlier than the HR21. The HR21 does run cooler although that isn't a problem with the HR20s for me.
It is possible that the OTA chipset in the AM21 may be better than the one in the HR20s, since the unit is much newer, so if you are in a "fringe" reception area the AM21 MIGHT be better for you. But we won't know until we have had a chance to test it.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

stephenC said:


> Does the AM21 need a line voltage connection for power? USB carries power which should be enough to run the ATSC tuners. I'm just thinking about another power vampire on our grid.


It needs line voltage (aka. you have to plug it in).


----------



## RAD

stephenC said:


> Does the AM21 need a line voltage connection for power? USB carries power which should be enough to run the ATSC tuners. I'm just thinking about another power vampire on our grid.


What would be the difference if it's taking power from the USB or from the AC line, still taking power either way.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

richlife said:


> My question is just how good is the tuner. We all know that the HR20 ATSC tuners suck compared to most good HDTV tuners. If this tuner is good, I will buy (lease)


I asked this same question and was told it uses an entirely different chipset than the ATSC tuners in the HR20 or the H20. Hope that helps.


----------



## tcusta00

Thanks to all for your answers. Hope I didn't hijack the thread too badly with my own issues...


----------



## Ryan

I certainly can't imagine that building in OTA would raise the end cost $60 (plus shipping.) Why not just have two models of the receiver, one with and one without? (yes, Iknow that's currently the situation with the 20 vs 21; I meant more like 21 & a 21+)

Why, you'd almost think that DirecTV wanted to make it more difficult (and costly) than necessary to get OTA programming.


----------



## JohnnyO

Earl Bonovich said:


> Here is the official information for the AM21...


It looks nice.

Two questions:

1) Does USB have enough bandwidth for two ATSC HD streams?

2) And: Is this product easier/cheaper for DirectTV to build and stock and ship and install rather than having two DVRs staying in stock (ie, keeping both the HR-20 and HR-21 as continuing products in the hardware catalog).

John


----------



## hasan

boba said:


> It sucks this is just another piece of leased equipment we are being asked to pay for. If they had designed the HR21 correctly there would be no need for extra components and price.


Leased or not, 59 bucks for an integrated dual tuner OTA setup is worth every penny to me. It seems no matter what D* does, they can't please everyone. No one was more critical of how the OTA disappearance was handled by D* than I have been. They promised a solution. It looks like they have delivered, and in a way I find technically, aesthetically and financially pleasing.

I would hope, however, we don't turn this thread from CES into yet another pee'ing contest of woulda, coulda, shoulda. We got what we got ...now let those of us interested in OTA take advantage of it in the best way.

Let's let this thread be about the CES stuff itself, what it is, how it's used, availability, etc, and not on how to redesign it, or D*'s pricing structure, ad nauseum.

Those things can be discussed elsewhere, so let's not pollute this very valuable thread.


----------



## RAD

JohnnyO said:


> It looks nice.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> 1) Does USB have enough bandwidth for two ATSC HD streams?
> 
> 2) And: Is this product easier/cheaper for DirectTV to build and stock and ship and install rather than having two DVRs staying in stock (ie, keeping both the HR-20 and HR-21 as continuing products in the hardware catalog).
> 
> John


"USB 2.0 has a raw data rate at 480Mbps, and it is rated 40 times faster than its predecessor interface, USB 1.1, which tops at 12Mbps. Originally, USB 2.0 was intended to go only as fast as 240Mbps, but in October 1999, USB 2.0 Promoter Group pumped up the speed to 480Mbps. " from http://www.everythingusb.com/usb2/faq.htm. Since broadcast MPEG2 tops out about 19Mbps I think we'll be OK


----------



## houskamp

hasan said:


> Leased or not, 59 bucks for an integrated dual tuner OTA setup is worth every penny to me. It seems no matter what D* does, they can't please everyone. No one was more critical of how the OTA disappearance was handled by D* than I have been. They promised a solution. It looks like they have delivered, and in a way I find technically, aesthetically and financially pleasing.
> 
> I would hope, however, we don't turn this thread from CES into yet another pee'ing contest of woulda, coulda, shoulda. We got what we got ...now let those of us interested in OTA take advantage of it in the best way.
> 
> Let's let this thread be about the CES stuff itself, what it is, how it's used, availability, etc, and not on how to redesign it, or D*'s pricing structure, ad nauseum.
> 
> Those things can be discussed elsewhere, so let's not pollute this very valuable thread.


Same here.. Where do we sign up to get one


----------



## Jeff Richardson

Is there any difference between having an HR-20 and having an HR-21 + AM-21, besides the obvious one unit versus two? For example, if someone has a choice, is there a reason to pick the two units versus just getting an HR-20?


----------



## DBSNewbie

Radio Enginerd said:


> From working with retail stores I can tell you that most folks like something that's stackable. Since it follows the same form factor as the HR21 it can be easily paired and displayed in any Home Theater rack.
> 
> Now all DirecTV has to do is add rack ears to the HR21 and AM21 boxes.


As nice as the AM21/HR21 Combo looks, I think I may be the only one here who has a problem with this "Stacked" OTA solution.

Let me explain...

I currently have six TVs in the den being fed by (3) HR20-700s and (3) H20-600s, which are neatly installed in a custom Rack. Those D* receivers alone take up 12 Rack Spaces.

The problem I have is that D* receivers don't last forever and all six will eventually have to get replaced. (My personal experience with D* has shown me that of the 11 total receivers I have, at least one goes bad and needs replacement per year). It's a good thing I have the Protection Plan, so it doesn't cost me a dime to get them swapped out.

However, if one day the HR21/AM21 Combo is the only option I will have , then that means I will have to find up to 6 more rack spaces to place them in, which I currently don't have.


----------



## Doug Brott

texasbrit said:
 

> DirecTV takes the OTA HD signal which is in MPEG-2 encoding, and re-encodes it to MPEG-4 for transmission over the satellite. Since both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are "lossy" encoding schemes, the DirecTV HD local can never have a better picture quality than the OTA local (assuming you are using the correct antenna for OTA).


This is getting slightly off topic, but to counter that, if DIRECTV receives an MPEG4 feed directly from the station vs. transcoding it from OTA-MPEG2 to SAT-MPEG4, then I would make an argument that the feed from DIRECTV would be better than the feed from OTA.

If you used ATSC as the "holy grail" for measuring the quality of an HD signal, what would happen if the DIRECTV quality actually looked better than the ATSC quality?


----------



## VLaslow

I, for one, am pleased with this solution. The price, if delivered at $59, is reasonable and it solves my issues. I'm looking forward to buying one when they are released.

Thanks again for the update gentlemen!


----------



## tcusta00

Doug Brott said:


> If you used ATSC as the "holy grail" for measuring the quality of an HD signal, what would happen if the DIRECTV quality actually looked better than the ATSC quality?


Well then I suppose I'd be a happy camper and wouldn't need the OTA for this issue. But for getting the sub-channels and all 30 PBS stations (god only knows how many antiques roadshows they can broadcast) OTA is the solution. It sounds as if D* HD locals is the best that I'm going to get, huh?


----------



## mpaquette

VLaslow said:


> I, for one, am pleased with this solution. The price, if delivered at $59, is reasonable and it solves my issues. I'm looking forward to buying one when they are released.
> 
> Thanks again for the update gentlemen!


I second this sentiment. This is exactly what I was hoping for and at $59 I certainly can't complain. I too will pick one up as soon as they are released.

Thanks to those at CES taking the time and effort to provide us with this type of information. It is much appreciated!


----------



## tuff bob

If this box is really only going to be $59 -and- will be available soon, DirecTV has NAILED this problem. Great news.

I suspect either:
$59 is the OTA Lease upgrade fee, it will be "attached" to the HR21 on your account, the $59 includes professional installation and perhaps antenna installation.

- or -

$59 to own the OTA box. You're on your own with installation and antennas.

wonder which way DirecTV goes on this.


----------



## jake14mw

The unit looks good. I think it was a good decision to make it the same size.

To me, the obvious question is, how does this save them money vs. having an HR21 and an HR2x with an integrated OTA tuner that they lease for $59 more? I have to believe that the manufacturing costs are greater to build two separate boxes than to integrate the tuners into an HR2x.

As a consumer, I'd rather have one box. If I was an installer, I'd rather have one box. I don't think it's a HUGE deal either way, but it just seems to be additional complexity for a reason I don't see.

There must be a reason, so what is it?


----------



## Capmeister

I am really impressed with this.


----------



## billsharpe

jake14mw said:


> The unit looks good. I think it was a good decision to make it the same size.
> 
> To me, the obvious question is, how does this save them money vs. having an HR21 and an HR2x with an integrated OTA tuner that they lease for $59 more? I have to believe that the manufacturing costs are greater to build two separate boxes than to integrate the tuners into an HR2x.
> 
> As a consumer, I'd rather have one box. If I was an installer, I'd rather have one box. I don't think it's a HUGE deal either way, but it just seems to be additional complexity for a reason I don't see.
> 
> There must be a reason, so what is it?


Dollars!

For those that don't need OTA, HR21 alone is fine. For those that do, HR21 + Add-On will now be the solution. Eventually DirecTV only needs to supply one DVR model instead of two at a cost savings to them. The timing and implementation could have been better but the new unit looks promising.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

I guess there will NOT be a CE for this thing, unless it comes OTA!


----------



## mpaquette

Spanky_Partain said:


> I guess there will NOT be a CE for this thing, unless it comes OTA!


Why is that? It could come from the HR21 and be sent via the USB cable.


----------



## bnglbill

mpaquette said:


> Why is that? It could come from the HR21 and be sent via the USB cable.


Or you could plug it into your computer via usb and flash it to update the firmware.


----------



## rsteinfe

DBSNewbie said:


> I currently have six TVs in the den being fed by (3) HR20-700s and (3) H20-600s, which are neatly installed in a custom Rack. Those D* receivers alone take up 12 Rack Spaces.


:eek2: Amazing! I didn't think they let anyone live in the White House "situation room."


----------



## bhelton71

Did anyone ever say who the manufacturer was ?


----------



## jefbal99

DBSNewbie said:


> As nice as the AM21/HR21 Combo looks, I think I may be the only one here who has a problem with this "Stacked" OTA solution.
> 
> Let me explain...
> 
> I currently have six TVs in the den being fed by (3) HR20-700s and (3) H20-600s, which are neatly installed in a custom Rack. Those D* receivers alone take up 12 Rack Spaces.
> 
> The problem I have is that D* receivers don't last forever and all six will eventually have to get replaced. (My personal experience with D* has shown me that of the 11 total receivers I have, at least one goes bad and needs replacement per year). It's a good thing I have the Protection Plan, so it doesn't cost me a dime to get them swapped out.
> 
> However, if one day the HR21/AM21 Combo is the only option I will have , then that means I will have to find up to 6 more rack spaces to place them in, which I currently don't have.


would just them on top of the rack or 3 on top and 3 on bottom and run longer USB cables 

I'd love to see some pics of your setup


----------



## BattleScott

Is there any possibility this box will include a diplexer, so you can hook up a dish mount UHF antenna and feed the OTA signal to the AM21 via the RG6 runs from the dish? That would be slick OTA kit. 1 UHF Dish Antenna, external diplexer and an internal diplexer in the AM21 box for a complete OTA implimentation.


----------



## mjones73

Highly doubt it will have a diplexer in the box. Directv doesn't support diplexing with the new dish anyway, you can only do it if you are using an SWM or you move your BBC before the diplexer.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

BattleScott said:


> Is there any possibility this box will include a diplexer, so you can hook up a dish mount UHF antenna and feed the OTA signal to the AM21 via the RG6 runs from the dish? That would be slick OTA kit. 1 UHF Dish Antenna, external diplexer and an internal diplexer in the AM21 box for a complete OTA implimentation.


Probably not...

Since diplexing is not really supported any longer with non-swm installs.

And the chances that an antenna would also be included are slim to... as each market needs a different type of antenna... and different distances circumstances, ect....


----------



## JAYPB

Hey Earl,

Has there been any talk/commentary on whether you'll have to pay a monthly fee on top of the purchase/lease price to utilize this unit? I.e., $59 to purchase/lease it, then $3.99 a month to be able to record OTA with it?

Just curious.

Thanks


----------



## Thaedron

GP245 said:


> It needs its own AC connection.


Not really. It needs AC power from the wall outlet, but then has a pass-through to the HR21. Net is that only 1 power cord from the wall for both the HR21 and the AM21.


----------



## Carl Spock

DBSNewbie said:


> As nice as the AM21/HR21 Combo looks, I think I may be the only one here who has a problem with this "Stacked" OTA solution.
> 
> Let me explain...
> 
> I currently have six TVs in the den being fed by (3) HR20-700s and (3) H20-600s, which are neatly installed in a custom Rack. Those D* receivers alone take up 12 Rack Spaces.
> 
> The problem I have is that D* receivers don't last forever and all six will eventually have to get replaced. (My personal experience with D* has shown me that of the 11 total receivers I have, at least one goes bad and needs replacement per year). It's a good thing I have the Protection Plan, so it doesn't cost me a dime to get them swapped out.
> 
> However, if one day the HR21/AM21 Combo is the only option I will have , then that means I will have to find up to 6 more rack spaces to place them in, which I currently don't have.


Then bury them behind the rack. Any 19" rack I've worked on had more empty territory on its backside than near the front. As thin as they are, I'm sure you can find room to bury them. There aren't any controls on them. You never need to get to them. Why do you need to see them?


----------



## Thaedron

Ryan said:


> Why not just have two models of the receiver, one with and one without? (yes, Iknow that's currently the situation with the 20 vs 21; I meant more like 21 & a 21+)
> 
> Why, you'd almost think that DirecTV wanted to make it more difficult (and costly) than necessary to get OTA programming.





Johnny O said:


> 2) And: Is this product easier/cheaper for DirectTV to build and stock and ship and install rather than having two DVRs staying in stock (ie, keeping both the HR-20 and HR-21 as continuing products in the hardware catalog).


Everyone who wants the DVR, needs the DVR. Everyone who wants OTA reception would also need an AM21. Personally I think it's less confusing to have the add-on than to worry about whether you need a 20 / 21 (or 21 / 21+). I believe that DirecTVs approach here is actually to minimize costs, not to drive them up. Don't forget the rumors about DVR price drops coming "soon". If the HR21 drops from $299 to $199, then the HR21 with AM21 is still cheaper than current price for either an HR21 or an HR20.


----------



## Thaedron

Carl Spock said:


> Then bury them behind the rack. Any 19" rack I've worked on had more empty territory on its backside than near the front. As thin as they are, I'm sure you can find room to bury them. There aren't any controls on them. You never need to get to them. Why do you need to see them?


Was it concluded that there is no IR port on the front? Do they get all of their "control" from the USB port via the DVR?


----------



## Doug Brott

bhelton71 said:


> Did anyone ever say who the manufacturer was ?


Yes .. the manufacturer is Pace.


----------



## Carl Spock

Thaedron said:


> Was it concluded that there is no IR port on the front? Do they get all of their "control" from the USB port via the DVR?


I didn't see that but even so, I bet in a system this complex there is already a remote repeater. If not, install one. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper than 6 more rack shelves.


----------



## Thaedron

Carl Spock said:


> I didn't see that but even so, I bet in a system this complex there is already a remote repeater. If not, install one. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper than 6 more rack shelves.


True dat.


----------



## rminsk

Thank goodness I have HR20s. I do not have enough room in my rack for any more equipment and it looks like it is a little bit more than 1/2U.


----------



## DBEX

This thing should be free! I feel sorry for HR21 users...


----------



## rjheard

Doug Brott said:


> Would not do much .. the HR21 does not vent from the top. Besides, it would increase the cost of the the box.
> 
> One thing to consider is that with all of the extra space in the AM21, heat dissipation should be more easy to manage.


If this box ends up being a purchase instead of a lease I could easily see someone stuffing some hard drives in there for extra storage.


----------



## DBEX

This thing should be free! I feel sorry for HR21 users that need OTA tuning...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Thaedron said:


> Everyone who wants the DVR, needs the DVR. Everyone who wants OTA reception would also need an AM21. Personally I think it's less confusing to have the add-on than to worry about whether you need a 20 / 21 (or 21 / 21+). I believe that DirecTVs approach here is actually to minimize costs, not to drive them up. Don't forget the rumors about DVR price drops coming "soon". If the HR21 drops from $299 to $199, then the HR21 with AM21 is still cheaper than current price for either an HR21 or an HR20.


The other clear advantages of the AM21 solution are:

1) Attractive look that blends with other equipment
2) Low cost
3) Future - proof - as DirecTV introduces other nee receivers and DVR's in the 
future, this will still work.
4) Focused technology. Everyone knows that when you build equipment 
specifically designed for one purpose, it usually does it very well.

The have hit a home run with the AM21. Customers win, DirecTV wins. :up:


----------



## Doug Brott

Spanky_Partain said:


> I guess there will NOT be a CE for this thing, unless it comes OTA!


It's just a couple of tuners .. the firmware will be on the HR21 so I don't see why there would even be a need for a CE for the AM21.


----------



## rjheard

JAYPB said:


> Hey Earl,
> 
> Has there been any talk/commentary on whether you'll have to pay a monthly fee on top of the purchase/lease price to utilize this unit? I.e., $59 to purchase/lease it, then $3.99 a month to be able to record OTA with it?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> Thanks


I should hope not. Do HR20 users pay extra to use the OTA receiver?


----------



## Doug Brott

DBEX said:


> This thing should be free! I feel sorry for HR21 users...


The combo looks like it might even be cheaper than the current all-in-one solution ..


----------



## Doug Brott

rjheard said:


> If this box ends up being a purchase instead of a lease I could easily see someone stuffing some hard drives in there for extra storage.


Since the AM21 doesn't have any place to put the HDD, you're already talking about a specialized situation. Add the fan at that point. The AM21 is simply an Antenna Module. There is no place for a hard drive, fan or other component. I'm also 99% certain that control of the AM21 is via the USB port. In some respect, that AM21 is a very simple device.


----------



## bhelton71

Carl Spock said:


> Then bury them behind the rack. Any 19" rack I've worked on had more empty territory on its backside than near the front. As thin as they are, I'm sure you can find room to bury them. There aren't any controls on them. You never need to get to them. Why do you need to see them?


Well they do look cool stacked - kind of got that Silver Pioneer component thing going


----------



## hancox

Doug Brott said:


> It's just a couple of tuners .. the firmware will be on the HR21 so I don't see why there would even be a need for a CE for the AM21.


Yeah right. Tell everyone who waited (not terribly) patiently for the tuners to light up on their HR20's


----------



## gully_foyle

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm suspecting most of the space is to make a unit that compliments the H21/HR21 nicely.


And for the internal power supply, judging by the 120V AC input.


----------



## gully_foyle

rjheard said:


> I should hope not. Do HR20 users pay extra to use the OTA receiver?


Not at this time.


----------



## DBSNewbie

jefbal99 said:


> would just them on top of the rack or 3 on top and 3 on bottom and run longer USB cables
> 
> I'd love to see some pics of your setup


With all the other equipment we have, the racks are already maxed-out with components. And besides, for every new component (with no rack ears) we install in the rack, that's a new custom face plate ($167 from Middle Atlantic) that we have to order. After awhile, all those costs add up.

As far as the pics, give me a couple of weeks to post them. Up until few days ago we had all the TVs sitting on top of AV Stands and Pole Mounts. It looked very industrial, to say the least.

As a Christmas present, my wife offered to help with the costs to hire a custom wood-maker to build a new cabinet to house all the TVs and equipment.

So, at the moment everything is a big scattered mess. As soon as the project is done, I'll post the pics.


----------



## JAYPB

rjheard said:


> I should hope not. Do HR20 users pay extra to use the OTA receiver?





kcmurphy88 said:


> Not at this time.


This is kind of why I was asking the question---I remember a few threads recently speculating on D* setting themselves up for more streams of revenue....and was just curious if this was the start of another one for them.


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> Yeah right. Tell everyone who waited (not terribly) patiently for the tuners to light up on their HR20's


OK, I see your point and to that .. you have a good point. If there are field trials (I don't know if there will be or not) then a CE for the HR21 to enable OTA would make perfect sense. I was saying that the AM21 itself would not have any CE, but the HR21 using the AM21 might need a CE .. sorry.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> If there are field trials (I don't know if there will be or not) then a CE for the HR21 to enable OTA would make perfect sense. I was saying that the AM21 itself would not have any CE, but the HR21 using the AM21 might need a CE .. sorry.


I understood it that way the first time you explained it Doug.

If there are only 2 tuners, a USB connection, a power source, and related connections for these things....there would be no facility to have any kind of a CE. The HR21 software/firmware would have to be able to support the device, just like the SWM and other devices have such a dependency.

Field trials, if there even are any, would not take long to validate any testing results.

No surprise here.


----------



## rjheard

Doug Brott said:


> Since the AM21 doesn't have any place to put the HDD, you're already talking about a specialized situation. Add the fan at that point. The AM21 is simply an Antenna Module. There is no place for a hard drive, fan or other component. I'm also 99% certain that control of the AM21 is via the USB port. In some respect, that AM21 is a very simple device.


Some customization would be required. I suspect a good portion of the chassis is empty space but that's just a guess.


----------



## GP245

Thaedron said:


> Not really. It needs AC power from the wall outlet, but then has a pass-through to the HR21. Net is that only 1 power cord from the wall for both the HR21 and the AM21.


The orginal question was if the USB cable would provide the "juice."

The answer was correct!


----------



## jhillestad

I bet you they make you LEASE it ! so you will never own it and will pay hundreds for it when the lease is up (when you upgrade to a new box)... 

this better NOT be the case.


----------



## cygnusloop

jhillestad said:


> I bet you they make you LEASE it ! so you will never own it and will pay hundreds for it when the lease is up (when you upgrade to a new box)...
> 
> this better NOT be the case.


I don't know. You don't lease the dish (about the same value), you don't lease the multiswitch (also close to the same value). I also expect the SWM module will be owned, once it is in GA. But, I guess we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## bhelton71

cygnusloop said:


> I don't know. You don't lease the dish (about the same value), you don't lease the multiswitch (also close to the same value). I also expect the SWM module will be owned, once it is in GA. But, I guess we'll have to wait and see.


If it only works with the HR21 (and presumably HR22, 23,etc.) it seems like they would want it back - of course I also thought that about the growing pile of old receivers I now 'own' as well.


----------



## bonscott87

I'll take one please.


----------



## bluemoose

can anyone tell me why DirecTV took out the OTA function for the HR21 in the first place? 

wouldn't it be easier just to keep making the HR20s?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bluemoose said:


> can anyone tell me why DirecTV took out the OTA function for the HR21 in the first place?


That's been discussed at nauseum...but in short - since most customers don't want or need OTA support, the cost savings not to include those tuners is significant enough that it made business sense not to have them in the HR21 series. Since the HR20 series is still around, they would handle the need until something like the AM21 came around.


----------



## mikhu

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's been discussed at nauseum...but in short - since most customers don't want or need OTA support, the cost savings not to include those tuners is significant enough that it made business sense not to have them in the HR21 series. Since the HR20 series is still around, they would handle the need until something like the AM21 came around.


Actually, hasn't it been discussed ad nauseum?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Huss said:


> Actually, hasn't it been discussed ad nauseum?


That too... :lol:


----------



## skinnyJM

The width makes sense (rack). But why so deep?


----------



## smiddy

I called CSR and they couldn't get me one today, next month!

(do not take this post seriously, it is a lie, you can not get these yet)


----------



## Sirshagg

skinnyJM said:


> The width makes sense (rack). But why so deep?


In case you wanted to put something on top of it. I had a CD (or DVD) player that was standard width but really really short and it always annoyed me since i could not put anything on top of it.


----------



## frederic1943

skinnyJM said:


> The width makes sense (rack). But why so deep?


So if you put it under the HR21 the HR21 wouldn't sit at an angle.:lol:


----------



## tkrandall

Any word on the type/make and "generation" of the ATSC tuner in the AM21? I hoping for a much better performer with signal than the tuner in the HR20.


----------



## jake14mw

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The other clear advantages of the AM21 solution are:
> 
> 1) Attractive look that blends with other equipment
> 2) Low cost
> 3) Future - proof - as DirecTV introduces other nee receivers and DVR's in the
> future, this will still work.
> 4) Focused technology. Everyone knows that when you build equipment
> specifically designed for one purpose, it usually does it very well.
> 
> The have hit a home run with the AM21. Customers win, DirecTV wins. :up:


OK, I think this is a little over the top! 

1) Attractive look? Yes, it's attractive, but they could make an attractive looking box for remote scheduling too, but I don't want another box for it!

2) Low Cost. I'm not sure if you are meaning low cost for the consumer, or low cost for DirecTV. For the consumer, I guess $59 is better than $100, or some other price, but again, how is that better than integrated into the one box like we had before?

As far as 3 and 4 go, I understand your logic there, that's valid, but by that logic, other parts could be separated too, but I don't think anyone wants that.

I think I know what you are meaning. Given the fact that they have decided it must be a separate box, they seemed to have done a nice job on the separate box. It's pretty, and could have been worse than $59.


----------



## KCCardsfan

richlife said:


> I think this is fine, no problems with price and I have the HR21. My question is just how good is the tuner. We all know that the HR20 ATSC tuners suck compared to most good HDTV tuners. If this tuner is good, I will buy (lease) -- if the reports are that it's comparable to the HR20, forget it. (Of course, for all you city dwellers who don't care, this probably isn't a concern at all.)


Really, we all know they suck?
My HR20 OTA tuners don't 'suck', they have an incredible picture! I quit watching/recording my HD locals from DirecTv as soon as the tuners were activated a year ago. I see no difference between the HR20 OTA tuners & my Digital tuner in my JVC.


----------



## Maruuk

This will certainly rekindle interest in antenna solutions. Right now, the standard Terk clip on is useless on the new 5 LNB dish since its on-board amp required powering from the LNBs. There are inline-injector powering solutions but pricey and klugey, about as simpatico as Itchy & Scratchy.

Where is DTVs new clip-on solution? They had one before, need one now.


----------



## dreadlk

Looks good but why on earth so big? I have seen tuners that are the size of USB Key drives.
Even though its nice looking, I still am feeling so lucky that I got an HR20-100 before they ran out. I am just not very thrilled with the idea of adding more heat by resting something on top of the receiver and I also know that if some other use comes out for the USB port, the HR21 users are going to be up the creek unless a hub can be added.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dreadlk said:


> Looks good but why on earth so big? I have seen tuners that are the size of USB Key drives


I wonder (out loud) just how well those littel fellows would pull in HD signals from a dozen digital station towers in a reliable and stable way...???


----------



## bb37

Thaedron said:


> Not really. It needs AC power from the wall outlet, but then has a pass-through to the HR21. Net is that only 1 power cord from the wall for both the HR21 and the AM21.


By pass-through, do you mean that the AC power goes to the AM21 then passes through, still 120VAC, to the HR21? If so, it's a shame they took that approach.

On the other hand, if they had built a large enough power supply in the AM21 to provide 12VDC and/or 5VDC to the HR21, they could have bypassed the HR21 power supply completely. That would have gotten a big source of heat out of the HR21 box.


----------



## DBEX

What about installers? Do you have to ask for this thing when you order your system. This could create a nightmare between customers/installers and DirecTV.


----------



## RAD

bb37 said:


> By pass-through, do you mean that the AC power goes to the AM21 then passes through, still 120VAC, to the HR21? If so, it's a shame they took that approach.
> 
> On the other hand, if they had built a large enough power supply in the AM21 to provide 12VDC and/or 5VDC to the HR21, they could have bypassed the HR21 power supply completely. That would have gotten a big source of heat out of the HR21 box.


And a redesign of the HR21 and still need to have a power supply in the HR21 for the people that aren't going to get a AM21.


----------



## Doug Brott

RAD said:


> And a redesign of the HR21 and still need to have a power supply in the HR21 for the people that aren't going to get a AM21.


Correct .. plus retrofit to all of the ones already in the field. In a perfect world, the power would not be necessary on the AM21, but it's unlikely that the power supply was added just for the heck of it.


----------



## cygnusloop

bb37 said:


> By pass-through, do you mean that the AC power goes to the AM21 then passes through, still 120VAC, to the HR21? If so, it's a shame they took that approach.


A shame? Why? By the look of it you can still use two power cords if you choose.


----------



## Doug Brott

cygnusloop said:


> A shame? Why? By the look of it you can still use two power cords if you choose.


Good point. The "out" cord from the AM21 would dangle useless in that case.


----------



## bluemoose

a couple of questions:

Is the USB cable included?


----------



## SAlBO

looks good. I cant wait to get one......smiddy, slow down partner and leave a few for the rest of us........


----------



## Ken S

bluemoose said:


> can anyone tell me why DirecTV took out the OTA function for the HR21 in the first place?
> 
> wouldn't it be easier just to keep making the HR20s?


bluemoose,

DirecTV hasn't made an announcement about why they took the functionality out of the HR2x boxes, but it's not unreasonable to guess that:

1. Only a small percentage of their DVR customers use/want OTA tuners
2. Each Tuner in an HR2X box requires a $5 licensing fee ($10 total)
3. They reduced the hardware cost of the HR2X by not including OTA tuners.

So, they reduced their cost of the DVR.


----------



## GP245

bluemoose said:


> a couple of questions:
> 
> Is the USB cable included?


Direct's information sheet, which was posted here (possibly page 1) lists the box contents:

CABLES
HDMI
USB and attached power cable

You figure it out, I can't.

HDMI? For what purpose and there appears to be not only no need, but no place to put it.

Printed on one line is: " USB and attached power cable."

Let's try to decypher this one:

Yes, USB is the necessary umbilical between the HR21 receiver and the new AM21
Off-Air Tuner. I would hope and suspect that a USB cable is provided.

The next part - "...and attached power cable" makes absolutely no sense!

The picture of the back of the tuner clearly shows a 2-prong Power Input -
with no power cable attached.

Let's all hope that these errors are not emblematic of the tuner itself.

I trust no one - I have an R15-100!


----------



## bhelton71

GP245 said:


> Direct's information sheet, which was posted here (possibly page 1) lists the box contents:
> 
> CABLES
> HDMI
> USB and attached power cable
> 
> You figure it out, I can't.
> 
> HDMI? For what purpose and there appears to be not only no need, but no place to put it.
> 
> Printed on one line is: " USB and attached power cable."
> 
> Let's try to decypher this one:
> 
> Yes, USB is the necessary umbilical between the HR21 receiver and the new AM21
> Off-Air Tuner. I would hope and suspect that a USB cable is provided.
> 
> The next part - "...and attached power cable" makes absolutely no sense!
> 
> The picture of the back of the tuner clearly shows a 2-prong Power Input -
> with no power cable attached.
> 
> Let's all hope that these errors are not emblematic of the tuner itself.
> 
> I trust no one - I have an R15-100!


Its like every other cable - extra never hurts - never know when a family member will say "got an extra hdmi cable ?" - why yes, I do


----------



## leww37334

Ken S said:


> bluemoose,
> 
> DirecTV hasn't made an announcement about why they took the functionality out of the HR2x boxes, but it's not unreasonable to guess that:
> 
> 1. Only a small percentage of their DVR customers use/want OTA tuners
> 2. Each Tuner in an HR2X box requires a $5 licensing fee ($10 total)
> 3. They reduced the hardware cost of the HR2X by not including OTA tuners.
> 
> So, they reduced their cost of the DVR.


This cost reduction of the HR-21 has bothered me for awhile, if this is the case, why does the HR-20 and HR-21 seem to cost exactly the same amount to the consumer?

(yes this is a rhetorical question)


----------



## bobnielsen

leww37334 said:


> This cost reduction of the HR-21 has bothered me for awhile, if this is the case, why does the HR-20 and HR-21 seem to cost exactly the same amount to the consumer?
> 
> (yes this is a rhetorical question)


The HR21 is supposedly being reduced to $199 on Jan 10.


----------



## tkrandall

KCCardsfan said:


> I see no difference between the HR20 OTA tuners & my Digital tuner in my JVC.


Oh, I do. My Samsung DLP does a much better job of holding signal. I don't have the strongest signal and have (I think) some multipath problems as well due to terrain between me and the stations. The TV will hold some stations that the HR20-700 will not. I live about 20 miles away from the stations with a 600-700 foot tall mountain/ridge in my line of sight about 1.5 miles away from me. I have a roof mounted antenna.


----------



## sprocto2

The HR20 has trouble in my market because of adjacent channel interference. The HR10-250 is flawless for OTA, HR20 is unwatchable. I hope these tuners are better. It's not cool having to pay 5 more buck a month for the Tivo just for OTA.


----------



## tonyquan

bb37 said:


> The NTIA's list of "Authorized Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes" appears here. The Echostar TR-40 appears on the list, but it's more of a standalone converter. If the AM21 only works as an add-on to the HR20/HR21, the NTIA may not approve it for coupon reimbursement.


Devices for this program have to pass a government testing program. Anything with a digital output (this includes USB) would fail the tests. The test rules are written to make sure that the only thing that would pass would be something that picks up ATSC OTA and only has analog outputs. The rules even specifically bar devices that have a display!


----------



## big daddy kool

I just got mine in December and on this months bill, will I get money back from Directv??



bobnielsen said:


> The HR21 is supposedly being reduced to $199 on Jan 10.


----------



## hasan

DBEX said:


> This thing should be free! I feel sorry for HR21 users...


Nothing is free, and as an owner of HR20-700, HR20-100 and HR21-xxx, I am *more than pleased* with this solution, so don't feel sorry for me.

...and as one can see by reading the posts in this thread, the vast majority of those posting share my excitement. One can be sure if this were an unpopular solution that people were unhappy with, we would see a cascade of criticism. Short of a couple of naysayers, where is it, I might ask?

Many of us posted severe and pointed criticism at the way OTA disappeared from the HR21 and the lack of availability of the HR20 series with OTA. Now we see that D* made good on their promise, yet some are determined to snatch defeat from the hands of victory. Go figure....

There are plenty of things to complain about, but the OTA solution proposed, and the associated pricing (if it is accurate) is quite fair. I look forward to it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

leww37334 said:


> This cost reduction of the HR-21 has bothered me for awhile, if this is the case, why does the HR-20 and HR-21 seem to cost exactly the same amount to the consumer?
> 
> (yes this is a rhetorical question)


Because the price to the consumer, is still lower then the stated cost to manufacture it.

DirecTV by reducing the manufacturing costs, reduces the initial loss they take on the box.


----------



## carl6

Well said, hasan. I agree completely. I look forward to adding one of these to my HR21.

Carl


----------



## Stuart Sweet

We believe that the HDMI on the product sheet is a typo. 

As far as the daisy chain on the power supply, I don't thnk it's a shame, I think that it allows the AM21 to draw the power it needs instead of relying on the USB, and does it in a fairly elegant way.


----------



## jefbal99

Can't wait to get one of these for my sister and bro-in-law...

Got them an upgrade package for christmas, slimline and requested h20 for ota locals. However, they only had the H21s in stock.

Need to wait for the software upgrade that Doug or Stuart mentioned, then lets rock and roll.


----------



## turkeylord

Any indication that this will work with the new HDPC20?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

turkeylord said:


> Any indication that this will work with the new HDPC20?


Most likely not...
As there are dozens (if not more) of ATSC solutions for media center PC's


----------



## turkeylord

Thanks for the quick reply.. I'm pretty sour on TV tuners & video capture cards based on past experience.. Even my dad's brand new HP Media Center PC doesn't work properly..

Forgive my newb-ness, will Media Center integrate the two sources properly for DVR and Guide functions?


----------



## Smuuth

big daddy kool said:


> I just got mine in December and on this months bill, will I get money back from Directv??


Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

I would guess as in the case of most every other product price reduction, the new price will not be retroactive.


----------



## tkrandall

Given that DTV has not exactly done a good job since the HR21 came out at handling matters for those that desired a new or replacement HR20 (because the HR20 has OTA), how are they going to handle it for those that get the HR21/AM21 combo? 

Example conflict scenarios:

1) HR20/OTA customer needs a replacement and they send an HR21. They customer now has to go buy an AM21 because DTV won't specifiy an HR20 for him?

2) HR21 customer with the AM21 needs a replacement DVR but they send a refurbed HR20 instead. What is the customer to do with the AM21? What if (as in my case) the HR20 tuners are not good enough to handle your signal but the AM21 with its (presumed) better tuners can?

In my case, I'd like an HR21/AM21 combo to replace my HR20 if the AM21 OTA tuners are indeed better. Do they have a trade-in program (for a reasonable fee)?

What I am getting at is DTV should be able to specifiy which unit (HR20 or HR21) gets shipped to you based on customer needs. New order or refurbishment.


----------



## Sirshagg

tkrandall said:


> What I am getting at is DTV should be able to specifiy which unit (HR20 or HR21) gets shipped to you based on customer needs. New order or refurbishment.


One wouldn't think this would be so difficult - they *are* completely different model numbers after all. Now HR20-100 vs HR20-700 I can at least understand. But not HR20 vs HR21.


----------



## dodge boy

I hope they will make the ota tuner compatible with the R15 or better yet R16 (since it is black) and switch out my owned R15 for an owned R16... since 2009 is just a year away and I would pay the 55 bucks or whatever it will be for the OTA option to get all my sub channels and neighboring locals..... Shoot if I could get 2 of these I wouldn't need to use the governments $40.00 coupons....


----------



## turkeylord

tkrandall said:


> What I am getting at is DTV should be able to specifiy which unit (HR20 or HR21) gets shipped to you based on customer needs. New order or refurbishment.


My local BBY is selling H21's and HR21's even though we do not have HD locals yet.. stupid...


----------



## mjones73

turkeylord said:


> Thanks for the quick reply.. I'm pretty sour on TV tuners & video capture cards based on past experience.. Even my dad's brand new HP Media Center PC doesn't work properly..
> 
> Forgive my newb-ness, will Media Center integrate the two sources properly for DVR and Guide functions?


Yes, out of the box it can integrate two pairs of two tuners together, ATSC and Cablecard for example. I'd assume it would be able to do two ATSC and two Directv tuners. There are some registry hacks out there that can allow more tuners, we'll have to see if they work with this new hardware once someone gets their hands on it.

A lot of MCE info has been covered in this thread - http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115136


----------



## Doug Brott

big daddy kool said:


> I just got mine in December and on this months bill, will I get money back from Directv??





Smuuth said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s
> 
> I would guess as in the case of most every other product price reduction, the new price will not be retroactive.


But you could always call and ask (after the price drop is actually announced of course).


----------



## Earl Bonovich

turkeylord said:


> My local BBY is selling H21's and HR21's even though we do not have HD locals yet.. stupid...


Why?

There are a lot of DMA's that don't have even SD locals, but yet DirecTV equipment is sold there.

Do the SD locals not work either? while accessing all the other HD content?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dodge boy said:


> I hope they will make the ota tuner compatible with the R15 or better yet R16 (since it is black) and switch out my owned R15 for an owned R16... since 2009 is just a year away and I would pay the 55 bucks or whatever it will be for the OTA option to get all my sub channels and neighboring locals..... Shoot if I could get 2 of these I wouldn't need to use the governments $40.00 coupons....


100% positive: The AM21 will not work with any of the SD-DVRs, current or future.


----------



## tkrandall

Any chance it would/could work with an HR20? It may sound like a dumb question but if the AM21's OTA tuners are better I'd like to bypass the internal ones in the HR20.


----------



## Sirshagg

turkeylord said:


> My local BBY is selling H21's and HR21's even though we do not have HD locals yet.. stupid...


This is why I stated earlier that it would have been preferable if the AM21 and HR21 were released at the same time. Then the AM21 would be sitting right next to the HR21 at BB and you would have no issue (except possibly cost).


----------



## turkeylord

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why?
> 
> There are a lot of DMA's that don't have even SD locals, but yet DirecTV equipment is sold there.
> 
> Do the SD locals not work either? while accessing all the other HD content?


SD locals work, but look awful. I'd much rather pull the HD ASTC signal off my antenna..


----------



## Doug Brott

tkrandall said:


> Any chance it would/could work with an HR20? It may sound like a dumb question but if the AM21's OTA tuners are better I'd like to bypass the internal ones in the HR20.


The AM21 is designed for the HR21 and possibly the H21 in the future.


----------



## turkeylord

mjones73 said:


> Yes, out of the box it can integrate two pairs of two tuners together, ATSC and Cablecard for example. I'd assume it would be able to do two ATSC and two Directv tuners. There are some registry hacks out there that can allow more tuners, we'll have to see if they work with this new hardware once someone gets their hands on it.
> 
> A lot of MCE info has been covered in this thread - <removed>


Thanks for the info!


----------



## DBSNewbie

turkeylord said:


> My local BBY is selling H21's and HR21's even though we do not have HD locals yet.. stupid...


Are those the only models they have in stock? Or do they still also have some H20's and HR20's left over?


----------



## bonscott87

turkeylord said:


> My local BBY is selling H21's and HR21's even though we do not have HD locals yet.. stupid...


So? DirecTV (and Dish) are sold in many places where *SD* locals aren't even available yet. Your point is....


----------



## DBSNewbie

Doug Brott said:


> The AM21 is designed for the HR21 and possibly the H21 in the future.


Anyone know if the AM21 will work with HR21 HD DVR *PRO* version?


----------



## Spanky_Partain

It would be kind of cool to be able to add two more tuners onto the HR20 and be able to record on 4 tuners and watch one from a playlist. Wow, need more power Scotty!


----------



## mhayes70

Spanky_Partain said:


> It would be kind of cool to be able to add two more tuners onto the HR20 and be able to record on 4 tuners and watch one from a playlist. Wow, need more power Scotty!


:lol: I think if I plug one more thing in where I have my HR21 I will blow some circuit's. Let's see. I have 50" plasma, HR21, DVD, Stereo Receiver, DSL Modem, Vonage box, and Sub woofer. Also, on the same circuit but different outlet is an electric fireplace. Oh, also the Christmas tree during Christmas. In the evenings I am pulling alot of power in that corner.


----------



## houskamp

mhayes70 said:


> :lol: I think if I plug one more thing in where I have my HR21 I will blow some circuit's. Let's see. I have 50" plasma, HR21, DVD, Stereo Receiver, DSL Modem, Vonage box, and Sub woofer. Also, on the same circuit but different outlet is an electric fireplace. Oh, also the Christmas tree during Christmas. In the evenings I am pulling alot of power in that corner.


Tell me about it :lol:


----------



## mhayes70

houskamp said:


> Tell me about it :lol:


:lol: That looks just like mine.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Spanky_Partain said:


> It would be kind of cool to be able to add two more tuners onto the HR20 and be able to record on 4 tuners and watch one from a playlist. Wow, need more power Scotty!


Cool yes, likely no. Even if the hardware would do it, and I don't think it would, they would have to port the software from the HR21 back to do it. It would be easy but I can't imagine them using the resources for that.


----------



## Smuuth

houskamp said:


> Tell me about it :lol:


Tell the truth - You really LIKE being called "Smoke", don't you? :lol:


----------



## HDTVFreak07

turkeylord said:


> My local BBY is selling H21's and HR21's even though we do not have HD locals yet.. stupid...


Same for this region (13601 zip code).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Smuuth said:


> Tell the truth - You really LIKE being called "Smoke", don't you? :lol:


!rolling !rolling !rolling

:backtotop


----------



## highheater

Earl Bonovich said:


> USB


If the AM 21 and HR 21 connect by USB, what is the HDMI connection for?

Possibly as a pass-thru to send HD signal directly to HDTV?

or is that HDMI really a misprint as suggested above?

Wouldn't USB be a slower connection (for channel changes)?


----------



## GP245

The mention of an HDMI cable is another Direct mistake!

There is no place for an HDMI, and an HDMI cable is *not* included with the AM21.


----------



## bobnielsen

I'm pretty sure that HDMI is a misprint. USB 2.0 is plenty fast enough (480 Mb/s). Channel changes should only require that the HR21 send a few bits of data to the AM21.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> The AM21 is designed for the HR21 and possibly the H21 in the future.


The plan is that it will work for the H21, and will require an update cycle. No timeline was mentioned.



DBSNewbie said:


> Anyone know if the AM21 will work with HR21 HD DVR *PRO* version?


Yes, definitely will.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## looter

Great.

If this sells for $59 and DIRECTV offers HR20 feature parity to the HR21 via software updates, I'll get rid of my remaining HR10-250.

Bring on February.


----------



## rlgold88

I have not seen the answer if the cost is 59 bucks leased or bought will there be another fee monthly?

Also for those of us who have the hr20's are we going to have to pay that monthly cost (if the am 21 has a monthly fee) for our ota on the hr20?

just some qustions I had?


----------



## litzdog911

rlgold88 said:


> I have not seen the answer if the cost is 59 bucks leased or bought will there be another fee monthly?
> 
> Also for those of us who have the hr20's are we going to have to pay that monthly cost (if the am 21 has a monthly fee) for our ota on the hr20?
> 
> just some qustions I had?


Pretty sure no extra monthly fee.


----------



## babzog

tony4d said:


> You've got to hand it to them, they made a smart decision with the hr21 and this thing. They solved their problem perfectly. If you want/need OTA, then pay for it.
> 
> I'm impressed too, the solution looks good and is pretty seemless.


Ooorrr.... they could stick the tuner back into the box where it belongs - and where it once was - and sim-pli-fy. Why have two boxes? Seems rather silly to me (but then, I'm looking at it from a historical - where tuners are already included everywhere - and engineering perspective. From a bean-counter POV, it's a cash-grab).

Frankly, I think DTV made a mistake leaving the tuner out of the HR21 and this is their attempt to cover that mistake when the public cried out.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

babzog said:


> Ooorrr.... they could stick the tuner back into the box where it belongs - and where it once was - and sim-pli-fy. Why have two boxes?


For those without OTA (the majority of customers)...they build one less expensive unit.

For those wanting or needing OTA, they have an inexpensive and attractive complimentary unit that also recoups most of the cost on that part.

Supply meets demand...

Sounds like a smart business decision to me.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

highheater said:


> If the AM 21 and HR 21 connect by USB, what is the HDMI connection for?
> 
> Possibly as a pass-thru to send HD signal directly to HDTV?
> 
> or is that HDMI really a misprint as suggested above?
> 
> Wouldn't USB be a slower connection (for channel changes)?


There is no HDMI port on the actual AM21


----------



## Earl Bonovich

GP245 said:


> The mention of an HDMI cable is another Direct mistake!
> 
> There is no place for an HDMI, and an HDMI cable is *not* included with the AM21.


Are you sure?
Have you gotten the final retail package....

Not saying that it isn't a mis-print in the packet brochure...
But what is to say that they don't include an HDMI cable in the box...

I mean... they could even include another remote for all we know.

While I do suspect that the inclusion of the listing of the cable may be a mistake, it may not be.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

babzog said:


> Ooorrr.... they could stick the tuner back into the box where it belongs - and where it once was - and sim-pli-fy. Why have two boxes? Seems rather silly to me (but then, I'm looking at it from a historical - where tuners are already included everywhere - and engineering perspective. From a bean-counter POV, it's a cash-grab).
> 
> Frankly, I think DTV made a mistake leaving the tuner out of the HR21 and this is their attempt to cover that mistake when the public cried out.


Or... they can continue with the model...
And continue with the Ala-Carte for certain features... that cost a significant percentage of the over production of the box.

So those that want it, the cost is about $10 more per unit, for those ACTUALLY going to use it...

Vs increasing the cost for the 100k, 200k, 500k, 1mil boxes (over time) that could go out to the market.

Given the fact that the AM21 was in development before any of you even heard about the HR21... I doubt the "public cry" had much impact on it being initiated.

ATSC is used by a relatively small percentage of the users out there... and they have HARD data to back up what they did...

They did just go willy nilly and yank the tuners out..
This is NOT the same era of HD that was prevelent for the last 5ish years, where the bulk of HD material came from ATSC....


----------



## Tom Robertson

Radio Enginerd said:


> To add: I was also told today the AM21 uses an entirely new chipset to that of the HR20 and H20 line. Although I have not confirmed. I wanted to but was afraid they'd kick me out of the booth if I tried to open the AM21.


Got some confirmation, yes, the AM21 will use more advanced and sensitive chipsets than the HR20s. Very glad to hear that.

As to the AM-21 with the HR20, as I suspected, that combination won't be supported as the HR20 already has OTA tuners inside. (That I expect would have to be disabled, thereby perhaps causing other issues.)

Tom


----------



## smithsc

(( Laughing )) I called DirecTV and tried to order an AM21 yesterday. The operator put me on hold for a really long time and then told me that it would not be available until spring! I asked to be put on any "early ship" list that they might have, citing the lack of HD locals over SAT and the removal of HR-20s from the retail chain (I just bought an HR-21 at Best Buy.)

I'll keep my fingers crossed but won't hold my breath!

SS


----------



## GP245

Earl Bonovich said:


> Are you sure?
> Have you gotten the final retail package....
> 
> Not saying that it isn't a mis-print in the packet brochure...
> But what is to say that they don't include an HDMI cable in the box...
> 
> I mean... they could even include another remote for all we know.
> 
> While I do suspect that the inclusion of the listing of the cable may be a mistake, it may not be.


Of course, I haven't gotten the final retail package!

I *logically* concluded that an HDMI cable was not included with the 
AM21 when I was clearly able to see the back of the component - by way of a picture provided by Direct. To anyone, even a non-egineer, there is no evidence of any place to connect an HDMI cable.

You *speculate* that Direct, nevertheless, might include an HDMI cable.
Then you take this conjecture to the length that Direct "...could even include another remote..."

Why not repeat what someone had hoped to be shipped with the AM21 -
an antenna?

You, in the past, have said that the HR21 does not include an O-T-A tuner for economic reasons.

Fair enough! Why would Direct in trying to save money, and currently being mired in its tranfer to Liberty by problems with Malone's Puerto Rican holdings, 
just throw it items (no matter the small amount of cost) in a cavalier manner? 
It just doesn't make any sense.

Earl, your rhetoric is beginning to match your acceptance of "anything Direct!"

When "the final retail package" is available, and I am wrong, I will apologize.

I trust you will "think like a gentleman" and do the same!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

GP245 said:


> Earl, your rhetoric is beginning to match your acceptance of "anything Direct!"


Since Earl is one of only 5-6 people here who has actually *SEEN* the AM21 personally, and since *HE* has regular and significant contacts *DIRECTLY* within the DirecTV organization at a signficant level....I'd tend to believe what Earl knows over almost anyone else (except Tom, Stuart, and Doug, of course).

I read your comments 3 times, and apparently you have not accounted for the fact that the information at the CES (like any other tradeshow) is subject to change, and the final version of the AM21 may indeed have some slight variances from what we know today. That's nothing new to any such information from a tradeshow.

Rhetoric? Despite Earl's efforts to get us this information and share it in alot of detail based on what *HE * personally observed and was told, it appears that a few here want to "shoot the messenger" here - which is just plain *wrong*.


----------



## waynebtx

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since Earl is one of only 5-6 people here who has actually *SEEN* the AM21 personally, and since *HE* has regular and significant contacts *DIRECTLY* within the DirecTV organization at a signficant level....I'd tend to believe what Earl knows over almost anyone else (except Tom, Stuart, and Doug, of course).
> 
> I read your comments 3 times, and apparently you have not accounted for the fact that the information at the CES (like any other tradeshow) is subject to change, and the final version of the AM21 may indeed have some slight variances from what we know today. That's nothing new to any such information from a tradeshow.
> 
> Rhetoric? Despite Earl's efforts to get us this information and share it in alot of detail based on what *HE * personally observed and was told, it appears that a few here want to "shoot the messenger" here - which is just plain *wrong*.


Very well put. I don't get it when others shoot the messenger Earl as you said was there and saw what Directv had . Things at trade shows have been known to have changes made to them by the time there ready to be a final product.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Let's take this down a notch. We all saw a pre-production AM21 that looks to be the final design, but you are all right, we haven't seen a shipping product. The early literature probably has a typo, you know what --that happens, trust me. 

Here's the message from me, and this is from my own eyes and ears:

There is a real AM21. It is not vaporware. It is going to be a lot cheaper than we all thought ($59), it is larger than we all thought (not a USB dongle), and it is coming very soon (end of February).


----------



## JBernardK

Several of you continually post that there are few Directv users who use OTA. Posting it over and over doesn't make it true. I don't see how anyone can have relaible statisics on this--even directv. Where are you getting this assertion?


----------



## badgerdave

babzog said:


> Ooorrr.... they could stick the tuner back into the box where it belongs - and where it once was - and sim-pli-fy. Why have two boxes? Seems rather silly to me (but then, I'm looking at it from a historical - where tuners are already included everywhere - and engineering perspective. From a bean-counter POV, it's a cash-grab).
> 
> Frankly, I think DTV made a mistake leaving the tuner out of the HR21 and this is their attempt to cover that mistake when the public cried out.


I'm not sure how true this was, but when I was talking to one of the DTV "case management" guys he said that direct TV had to pay a $100 fee to somebody for everyone of the boxes that activated an OTA tuner. This could be a way of mitigating that loss.


----------



## Carl Spock

GP245, as a CE Show veteran, many of the products on display are mock-ups. Literature, if there is any, are early releases, often delivered directly to the show floor from the printers. It is a hectic, confused environment. These guys are doing a heck of a job covering the show and reporting on it real time. That's very tough to do. You have appointments you have to go to, presentations you should see and, of course, parties with open bars to attend. To then take the time to post on everything you are seeing is a monstrous challenge. I wouldn't try to do it.

Unless I was poking at a laptop, sitting at the bar at the Riv. 

To dissect someone's report and attribute ill will to their postings is just not fair.

Give him a pass. This is hard work. Between 8 AM and 6 PM, I have rarely had any fun at Las Vegas during a CE Show.


----------



## badgerdave

Another quick point about the onboard OTA tuner (which I suspect someone will probaly try and debunk but is 100% accurate in my house). I kept having my HR20-700 and the two HR-20 100s that replaced it "freeze" and lock up--each time requiring either a soft or hard reboot to be able to change the channels. I finally took the new HR21 to replace it and haven't had any problems (I now have two HR21s). I was using a HR20-100 in my bedroom w/o incident, but I never bothered to hook up the OTA antenna to that unit.

When I moved it downstairs and hooked up the OTA in addition to the two DTV tuners, I had it lock up within the first week. It's happened three times since the move (just before Christmas). So I'm surmising that the integration of the OTA channels with the DTV channels is not quite as seemless as they would like and in fact causes some issues.

Hopefully the advanced chipset on the new box will have better results. I'd be curious to find out how may people who have experienced freezing and lock up problems with their DVRs are using the OTA tuners.


----------



## tkrandall

JBernardK said:


> Several of you continually post that there are few Directv users who use OTA. Posting it over and over doesn't make it true. I don't see how anyone can have relaible statisics on this--even directv. Where are you getting this assertion?


Perhaps DirecTV has a good idea based on the number of receivers on which the subscriber has gone to the trouble of setting up the local OTA channels. Perhaps there is a flag that gets set/reported and D* thus could know who seemingly is using OTA based on having done the setup.


----------



## hasan

Tom Robertson said:


> Got some confirmation, yes, the AM21 will use more advanced and sensitive chipsets than the HR20s. Very glad to hear that.
> 
> As to the AM-21 with the HR20, as I suspected, that combination won't be supported as the HR20 already has OTA tuners inside. (That I expect would have to be disabled, thereby perhaps causing other issues.)
> 
> Tom


That is really good news, Tom! Thanks for the update.


----------



## bonscott87

JBernardK said:


> Several of you continually post that there are few Directv users who use OTA. Posting it over and over doesn't make it true. I don't see how anyone can have relaible statisics on this--even directv. Where are you getting this assertion?


Perhaps because it *is* true. On this forum it's heavily used. In the general public hardly at all. Out of all the people I know only 2 others actually use an OTA antenna. Almost everyone else is "why do you need that for, that's what cable is for". MOST people don't want to use or put up an antenna and that is just plain fact.

Thus a small % of HD customers with DirecTV use OTA. Maybe what, 5% if we get all crazy with the numbers. Probably less then that. So they cut the OTA tuner out of the receiver which 95% of the customers will never use, lower the price by $100 and then offer a $60 OTA box for those that want it. I don't see why you think this is bad. It's a win-win all around. DirecTV saves money on production. Customers (OTA and non-OTA) get what they want and at a lower price. Where is the downside again?


----------



## hasan

bonscott87 said:


> Perhaps because it *is* true. On this forum it's heavily used. In the general public hardly at all. Out of all the people I know only 2 others actually use an OTA antenna. Almost everyone else is "why do you need that for, that's what cable is for". MOST people don't want to use or put up an antenna and that is just plain fact.
> 
> Thus a small % of HD customers with DirecTV use OTA. Maybe what, 5% if we get all crazy with the numbers. Probably less then that. So they cut the OTA tuner out of the receiver which 95% of the customers will never use, lower the price by $100 and then offer a $60 OTA box for those that want it. I don't see why you think this is bad. It's a win-win all around. DirecTV saves money on production. Customers (OTA and non-OTA) get what they want and at a lower price. Where is the downside again?


It's now a win-win situation as far as OTA and D* are concerned, so *please* let's not spiral in to yet another "ota is or is not important" fiasco. We were promised a solution, we have been presented with it and *I am impressed*

We have a resounding "YES!" for an answer, let's not try to turn it into a whimpering "No"

A big plus for the HR21 "solution" is the promise of a different (read as 'better'), tuner chipset. I can't wait...

Wouldn't it be quite strange if those of us who lamented the disappearance of the HR20-xx with OTA now found ourselves wishing we had HR21's and the AM21 because of its superior OTA tuner? Irony of ironies....you couldn't make this stuff up.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

:backtotop:

Please, please, no more discussion about whether or not OTA is important. There are other threads for that.


----------



## carl6

Perhaps some of the installers that frequent these forums can comment on the percentage of installs they do that have OTA hookups. 

First off, it is only applicable to HD installations. SD equipment has never had OTA tuners.

I believe the percentage is extremelly small in those markets where HD locals are available via satellite. In those markets where you need OTA in order to get one or more of the HD locals, then it is important, and you will have a very high percentage of installs that use it. Otherwise, I would guess 98% or 99% do not have OTA.

I like having access to OTA, but to be honest I almost never actually use it. One of the OTA tuners died on one of my HR20's, and you can't reliably use OTA with only one tuner (every other channel change gives you a searching for signal). I disabled OTA on that unit, and have not missed it.

DirecTV's solution seems to be right on target. The AM21 will provide the capability for those who need (or just want) it, and it makes the basic DVR (the HR21) both less costly to produce, and potentially more reliable because there is less to it (fewer components, less heat generation, lower power consumption, etc.).

Carl


----------



## Milominderbinder2

I like the price point ($59).

I like the fact that it will have newer tuners that hopefully will do better with multipath.

I can't wait to buy one.

DIRECTV heard us.

- Craig


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Craig, they hear us a lot. They are proud of their customer focus and proud to say that they listen.


----------



## houskamp

With newer tuners I can see I will be putting the HR21/am21 on the main set and moving the hr20s to the other locations.. after mrv comes along


----------



## Luke_Y

hasan said:


> ...It's now a win-win situation as far as OTA and D* are concerned...


For me its a win-_when_ situation. 

I can't wait till it's available, becuase *then* I can upgrade to the new dish/equip to get all the new HD chan. But no D* HD Locals here so I can't swap untill then.

Hurry D* !


----------



## JBernardK

bonscott87 said:


> Perhaps because it *is* true. On this forum it's heavily used. In the general public hardly at all. Out of all the people I know only 2 others actually use an OTA antenna. Almost everyone else is "why do you need that for, that's what cable is for". MOST people don't want to use or put up an antenna and that is just plain fact.
> 
> Thus a small % of HD customers with DirecTV use OTA. Maybe what, 5% if we get all crazy with the numbers. Probably less then that. So they cut the OTA tuner out of the receiver which 95% of the customers will never use, lower the price by $100 and then offer a $60 OTA box for those that want it. I don't see why you think this is bad. It's a win-win all around. DirecTV saves money on production. Customers (OTA and non-OTA) get what they want and at a lower price. Where is the downside again?


Like I said, posting it over and over does not make it true. What are your sources for these "facts"? don't quote "all the people you know" or a few installers. give us some real facts to back up your guesses and assumptions.


----------



## RobertE

JBernardK said:


> Like I said, posting it over and over does not make it true. What are your sources for these "facts"? don't quote "all the people you know" or a few installers. give us some real facts to back up your guesses and assumptions.


You know that phone line connection. It sends data back to D*. Of which, it would be a safe bet as to whether or not OTA is activated on your box. Oh, you don't have the phone line plugged in? Then you don't count. Sorry.


----------



## RobertE

carl6 said:


> Perhaps some of the installers that frequent these forums can comment on the percentage of installs they do that have OTA hookups.
> 
> First off, it is only applicable to HD installations. SD equipment has never had OTA tuners.
> 
> I believe the percentage is extremelly small in those markets where HD locals are available via satellite. In those markets where you need OTA in order to get one or more of the HD locals, then it is important, and you will have a very high percentage of installs that use it. Otherwise, I would guess 98% or 99% do not have OTA.
> 
> I like having access to OTA, but to be honest I almost never actually use it. One of the OTA tuners died on one of my HR20's, and you can't reliably use OTA with only one tuner (every other channel change gives you a searching for signal). I disabled OTA on that unit, and have not missed it.
> 
> DirecTV's solution seems to be right on target. The AM21 will provide the capability for those who need (or just want) it, and it makes the basic DVR (the HR21) both less costly to produce, and potentially more reliable because there is less to it (fewer components, less heat generation, lower power consumption, etc.).
> 
> Carl


In the 20 or so months that I have been installing in Cleveland, I've installed maybe 5 or 6 of the little OTA antennas we carry. I've probably hooked up maybe 30 or so customer antennas to the H20/HR20s.

To put things a little more in persepective, I've taken down more OTA antennas that I've hooked up & installed.

Granted, the factors for my market very likely will not carry over to other markets.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RobertE said:


> You know that phone line connection. It sends data back to D*. Of which, it would be a safe bet as to whether or not OTA is activated on your box. Oh, you don't have the phone line plugged in? Then you don't count. Sorry.


Yah think?


----------



## Pink Fairy

Not often, it saves brain cells!

^.^

I have been wanting to use that line for like, weeks now too! Thanks Earl!


----------



## RobertE

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yah think?


I try to do as little as possible. :grin:

Personally, I've had and currently have every box always connected to a phone line. Also, currently 3 out of my 4 HR2x's are also networked.

I want them to know what I'm watching and recording. If any little thing I can do to keep the shows I like on the air and get less "reality" TV, then I'm game.


----------



## hasan

Stuart Sweet said:


> Craig, they hear us a lot. They are proud of their customer focus and proud to say that they listen.


The proof is in the pudding, and this pudding looks mighty appetizing!

There is no question that they listened (w/r to OTA) and may provide us with a solution that is better than what we thought we were losing. I'm brimming with optimism from what I have seen (as far as form factor and aesthetics) and heard (new chipset).

From an engineering viewpoint, D* has proven over and over again that they listen. They might not incorporate everything we suggest, but considering all the things they have done and continue to do, and their obvious commitment to and participation in the CE program, I'd have to strongly agree that Stuart's assertion is well proven by their track record. Backing away a step or two and witnessing what has taken place since a year ago last September, it is a wonder to behold.

Now, before I start a cheering section or group hug, I cannot say nearly the same for their communication with ordinary consumers, CSR front-end, or program packaging (in one specific instance). Please, I don't want to start a discussion of the items I just listed....just trying to provide a little balance to my Pollyannic response to the AM21. I'm pumped!


----------



## bonscott87

JBernardK said:


> Like I said, posting it over and over does not make it true. What are your sources for these "facts"? don't quote "all the people you know" or a few installers. give us some real facts to back up your guesses and assumptions.


Maybe just drive around. :hurah: :lol:

Anyway, there are other threads for this argument.


----------



## babzog

Stuart Sweet said:


> Let's take this down a notch. We all saw a pre-production AM21 that looks to be the final design, but you are all right, we haven't seen a shipping product. The early literature probably has a typo, you know what --that happens, trust me.
> 
> Here's the message from me, and this is from my own eyes and ears:
> 
> There is a real AM21. It is not vaporware. It is going to be a lot cheaper than we all thought ($59), it is larger than we all thought (not a USB dongle), and it is coming very soon (end of February).


Replying to this one rather than Earls' but the point is the same.

Perhaps the savings per box will be realized by DTV - I doubt that users - you and I - are going to see a price difference when we walk into BB or Wally World and pick up a box from the stack. What we will see is a feature difference - features yanked out in order to save manufacturing costs while providing exactly zero relief for the consumer. Share value goes up, consumer empowerment goes down.

And $60 is not cheap for an add-on tuner that was already part of the original design. Not to mention that now you've got yet another item to stack up in the rack rather than having everything nicely integrated into one box. Why not carry this to the logical conclusion and yank out the network, usb, card reader and ir ports - make all those unnecessary bits into "addons" while maintaining a common price. Make the consumer tack on box after box to do everything that the original model already did.

Given the prevalence of TV antennae out there (go for a drive - darn things are everywhere), it's not hard to imagine users hooking them up again to pull in free TV like they used to. I certainly intend to - I can get (potentially) far more (locals) with my antennae than what I have on the dish.

As more stations get their HD broadcasts online - many didn't have a thing, or still don't, until recently - the incentive to hook up the old antennae becomes more attractive for Joe Lunchpail.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

babzog said:


> Replying to this one rather than Earls' but the point is the same.
> 
> Perhaps the savings per box will be realized by DTV - I doubt that users - you and I - are going to see a price difference when we walk into BB or Wally World and pick up a box from the stack. What we will see is a feature difference - features yanked out in order to save manufacturing costs while providing exactly zero relief for the consumer. Share value goes up, consumer empowerment goes down.
> 
> And $60 is not cheap for an add-on tuner that was already part of the original design. Not to mention that now you've got yet another item to stack up in the rack rather than having everything nicely integrated into one box. Why not carry this to the logical conclusion and yank out the network, usb, card reader and ir ports - make all those unnecessary bits into "addons" while maintaining a common price. Make the consumer tack on box after box to do everything that the original model already did.
> 
> Given the prevalence of TV antennae out there (go for a drive - darn things are everywhere), it's not hard to imagine users hooking them up again to pull in free TV like they used to. I certainly intend to - I can get (potentially) far more (locals) with my antennae than what I have on the dish.
> 
> As more stations get their HD broadcasts online - many didn't have a thing, or still don't, until recently - the incentive to hook up the old antennae becomes more attractive for Joe Lunchpail.


So... would you rather they continue to include $50 worth of equipment in their receivers, that a large population of people are not going to use...

And thus eventually have to go about some other method to recoup that cost... as the vendors for those components are going to want to be paid.

Network Chip Sets, USB Chips Sets - Those components are a fraction of the cost of the ATSC equipment.

The Card Reader... Required component for the access security
IR... Required component for the IR.

As for the "prevalence of TV antennae"... come drive around my neighboorhood....

You will find exacatly 2 antenna's in my subdivision... (of about 150 homes)..
Next subdivision over (of about 1,000 homes)... I haven't found a house yet that had an antenna.

So each area is very different...


----------



## tuff bob

Earl Bonovich said:


> You will find exacatly 2 antenna's in my subdivision... (of about 150 homes).. Next subdivision over (of about 1,000 homes)... I haven't found a house yet that had an antenna.


I don't know about Tinley Park, but in Oak Park the signal is plenty strong enough that an attic antenna works fine and has the bonus of not looking ugly.


----------



## looter

Today HR20/21 = $300 Very hard to get HR20.
Sometime soon HR21 = $200
AM21 = $60

I don't see the down side.


----------



## Zepes

looter said:


> Today HR20/21 = $300 Very hard to get HR20.
> Sometime soon HR21 = $200
> AM21 = $60
> 
> I don't see the down side.


Today HR21=$199 
Not Today = AM21


----------



## babzog

Earl Bonovich said:


> So... would you rather they continue to include $50 worth of equipment in their receivers, that a large population of people are not going to use...
> 
> And thus eventually have to go about some other method to recoup that cost... as the vendors for those components are going to want to be paid.


Yes, actually. The original box was getting its bugs ironed out... now they have to do all that testing again with a new box. More potential for problems with two boxes on the market.

And unless they're lowering the cost to consumers for the primary receiver by what it costs to re-add the tuners via the AM21, I'd rather the tuners stay right where they are.

Yanking the tuners is of zero benefit to you and I and every other consumer who is now paying the same money for less value.



Earl Bonovich said:


> You will find exacatly 2 antenna's in my subdivision... (of about 150 homes)..
> Next subdivision over (of about 1,000 homes)... I haven't found a house yet that had an antenna.
> 
> So each area is very different...


Fair enough - I'm out in the country and the situation is the exact opposite. Even on the drive to work (in the city), sure, there are far fewer houses in cable-supplied areas, but there are antennae out there in the 'burbs.


----------



## babzog

looter said:


> Today HR20/21 = $300 Very hard to get HR20.
> Sometime soon HR21 = $200
> AM21 = $60
> 
> I don't see the down side.


Where is the evidence that the HR21 is having the price chopped by $100?


----------



## Zepes

babzog said:


> Where is the evidence that the HR21 is having the price chopped by $100?


http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...rectv&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1186004963843


----------



## Earl Bonovich

babzog said:


> Yanking the tuners is of zero benefit to you and I and every other consumer who is now paying the same money for less value.


Keeping them in there has zero benefit to a lot of customers as well...

Other then the fact that DirecTV won't have to find another way to recoup the cost of ~$50 per box (which if you multiple it by 100k, 250k, 500k, 1mil .... adds up very quickly)


----------



## babzog

Zepes said:


> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...rectv&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1186004963843


Well... okay then. :blush:

With the price drop, there's really nothing to complain about.

Anyone have some good recipes for eating crow?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Zepes said:


> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...rectv&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1186004963843


I still don't get why their model number is HR21-600.


----------



## AreBee

I am really fired up about this! I like the price-point, I like the looks and I like that DirecTV came up with a integrated solution. My HR21 has been relegated to basement duty since I got it in November because the majority of my recording is from OTA channels. It will be nice to bring the HR21 upstairs, which I have found to have a better PQ than the HR20. It will also be great to have have my HD locals in the basement again.


----------



## tuff bob

Earl Bonovich said:


> So... would you rather they continue to include $50 worth of equipment in their receivers, that a large population of people are not going to use...
> 
> And thus eventually have to go about some other method to recoup that cost... as the vendors for those components are going to want to be paid.
> .


pretty strange that they saved $50 in hardware and reduced the actual box lease fee $100. thats a great plan!


----------



## CJTE

theratpatrol said:


> I still don't get why their model number is HR21-600.


HR21 is the model number
600 is the manufacturer code

There is a list somewhere around here.


----------



## gulfwarvet

theratpatrol said:


> I still don't get why their model number is HR21-600.


maybe a fat finger hit the 6 instead of the 7? :grin:


----------



## gulfwarvet

CJTE said:


> HR21 is the model number
> 600 is the manufacturer code
> 
> There is a list somewhere around here.


the thing is, there is no such thing of a HR21-600. 

other than that you are correct the last number is the manufacturer code


----------



## CJTE

gulfwarvet said:


> the thing is, there is no such thing of a HR21-600.
> 
> other than that you are correct the last number is the manufacturer code


Damnit. You're right. LOL.
The only HR21 currently in production is the -700.
Once again, I feel like an idiot!


----------



## Pink Fairy

CJTE said:


> Damnit. You're right. LOL.
> The only HR21 currently in production is the -700.
> Once again, I feel like an idiot!


~refrains from comment~ I could totally be mean here.


----------



## gulfwarvet

okietekkie said:


> ~refrains from comment~ I could totally be mean here.


:eek2:

now that don't sound like you


----------



## smiddy

babzog said:


> Well... okay then. :blush:
> 
> With the price drop, there's really nothing to complain about.
> 
> Anyone have some good recipes for eating crow?


You asked: http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm


----------



## Zepes

smiddy said:


> You asked: http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm


hehe


----------



## babzog

smiddy said:


> You asked: http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm


LMAO! Thanks man! :grin:


----------



## Groundhog45

I'm ready for one. Glad the OTA coax is still there where I replaced an H20 with the HR21. Looks like a very good solution.


----------



## CJTE

gulfwarvet said:


> maybe a fat finger hit the 6 instead of the 7? :grin:


Yea... Just realized the OP meant -600 on the BB side, not on the D* side.


----------



## sylvanir

[/lurk]

In regards to the Lease vs Owned thing - I would suspect that this will be considered an accessory (like remotes, multiswitches, etc) based on the fact that at the website, all of the receivers seem to be listed by access card information. Unless they plan on adding an access card to this unit (which would seem silly as the authorization information should all be stored on the related HR21, and I just don't see their being that large a problem with people pirating OTA signals...) I'm guessing their will be a one time up front fee with no further costs incurred aside from possible installation fees if a technician were needed to install this for some reason.

[lurk]


----------



## frederic1943

sylvanir said:


> I just don't see there being that large a problem with people pirating OTA signals.


Kind of hard to pirate a free over the air signal.:lol:


----------



## CJTE

frederic1943 said:


> Kind of hard to pirate a free over the air signal.:lol:


The problem is reselling the signal. So long as the pirate is making a profit, I dont think there's a case.


----------



## netconcepts

I am having a bit of difficulty with the economics of this 'New Deal'.

The HR20 was retailed at $299 with dual Sat and dual OTA tuners built in.

Then the HR21 shows up at the same price but with no OTA tuners.

Now the price has dropped to $199 and If I need the tuners to get OTA HD of the 5 HD channels that D* does not carry in the Charlotte, NC market I have to purchase an AM21 tuner for at best 50-75 more dollars, and add to my equipment list in my media room and burning more energy.

And now the HR20 is no longer available???

Where is the logic. :nono2:


----------



## bluemoose

netconcepts said:


> Where is the logic. :nono2:


I believe DirecTV secretly placed their logic inside the satellites and launched it into space...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

netconcepts said:


> I am having a bit of difficulty with the economics of this 'New Deal'.
> 
> The HR20 was retailed at $299 with dual Sat and dual OTA tuners built in.
> 
> Then the HR21 shows up at the same price but with no OTA tuners.
> 
> Now the price has dropped to $199 and If I need the tuners to get OTA HD of the 5 HD channels that D* does not carry in the Charlotte, NC market I have to purchase an AM21 tuner for at best 50-75 more dollars, and add to my equipment list in my media room and burning more energy.
> 
> And now the HR20 is no longer available???
> 
> Where is the logic. :nono2:


HR20 (last year): 2 satellite, 2 OTA = $299
HR21+AM21: 2 satellite, 2 OTA = $199 + $59 = $258

I can't say what the energy demands are but the two share a single wall outlet. The AM21 is maybe an inch tall and styled to compliment the HR21.

Respectfully, I would like to ask the nature of your concern.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> HR20 (last year): 2 satellite, 2 OTA = $299
> HR21+AM21: 2 satellite, 2 OTA = $199 + $59 = $258
> 
> I can't say what the energy demands are but the two share a single wall outlet. The AM21 is maybe an inch tall and styled to compliment the HR21.
> 
> Respectfully, I would like to ask the nature of your concern.


Great summary. Even *I *can understand this. :lol:


----------



## netconcepts

Stuart Sweet said:


> Respectfully, I would like to ask the nature of your concern.


Good Sir:
My concern is with these things. (1) My space available is under my TV is insufficient to add any more components, I plan to upgrade to a Samsung 61" and with it a new credenza in the near future anyhow. I feel the pain of those with limited space. (2) I have way too many devices that are supposed to be Energy*, however, their sleep mode collectively have increased my power bill over the past two years. (3) I feel another D* service charge in the future to compensate for the new equipment.

Would it be better to interface with the OTA tuners that are on most HDTV's now rather than further increasing the electronic load? That would be a great use of the firewire / USB ports.

Respectful in my reply.


----------



## mjones73

I believe the logic is most people don't use the ATSC tuners, Directv was already taking a hit in hardware costs so they saved a few bucks by dropping them.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Excellent points. I can't speak for every television but there is no way with either of my TVs to get the OTA signal out of the TV in digital form. If there were a more consistent interface between components I could imagine where it could work though. 

I completely agree with you in regard to the power requirements of home theater equipment. While I was at CES recently I took several manufacturers to task for wasting energy, and complimented several other for taking steps in the right direction. Unfortunately, as kind and forthcoming as the DIRECTV people were to me, I didn't ask to put a meter to the AM21 and see what the power usage is. However, I would be surprised given its general makeup if it were very great; it is completely solid state and I found no reason to suspect that external OTA tuners would use more power than internal ones. 

As regards your space concern, I might suggest that HR21s vent from the side and don't require space on top. HR20-700s vent from the top and it is very wise to have 1" open space above them. I would then submit that the space requirements for HR20-700 and HR21+AM21 are quite similar. Also as AM21 requires no input from the remote (as far as I know) it would be possible to put it behind the entertainment center, or in a hidden area, or whatever works for you. 

I cannot promise you that there will never be an access charge or mirroring charge for AM21. Don't trust anyone who tells you otherwise. What happens in the future is anyone's guess.


----------



## Carl Spock

netconcepts said:


> Where is the logic. :nono2:


In all cases, DirecTV makes money.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Carl Spock said:


> In all cases, DirecTV makes money.


...and people pay for what they use..


----------



## Carl Spock

^ Both are good.


----------



## houskamp

netconcepts said:


> Good Sir:
> My concern is with these things. (1) My space available is under my TV is insufficient to add any more components, I plan to upgrade to a Samsung 61" and with it a new credenza in the near future anyhow. I feel the pain of those with limited space. (2) I have way too many devices that are supposed to be Energy*, however, their sleep mode collectively have increased my power bill over the past two years. (3) I feel another D* service charge in the future to compensate for the new equipment.
> 
> Would it be better to interface with the OTA tuners that are on most HDTV's now rather than further increasing the electronic load? That would be a great use of the firewire / USB ports.
> 
> Respectful in my reply.


don't see why you couldn't use an extention cable and throw it behind rack...


----------



## bluemoose

I currently have one HR20 and two HR21s.

Let's say my HR20 dies and DirecTV send me the HR21 as replacement

because I've been paying the monthly protection money.  Shouldn't

they also include a *free* AM21, since my dead HR20 has OTA capability? 

Just wondering....


----------



## looter

Didn't DIRECTV include OTA tuners in the HR10-250 because they didn't broadcast most local HDs in the first place?

Now that they broadcast many HD locals. It makes sense to have the AM21 add-on for those who want OTAs, but to leave it out of their default HD DVR.

Having said that. Their timing is horrible. This needed to come out AT THE SAME TIME as the HR21. DIRECTV has lied to people and told them they'd receive HR20s and sent them HR21s with no OTA solution available to this day.

Otherwise, send people what you tell them you are sending them and keep making HR20s until a real replacement is available.

Hopefully, this will be a non-issue shortly.


----------



## waynebtx

houskamp said:


> don't see why you couldn't use an extention cable and throw it behind rack...


Beat me to that one . Extention cable should work just fine.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

netconcepts said:


> I am having a bit of difficulty with the economics of this 'New Deal'.
> 
> The HR20 was retailed at $299 with dual Sat and dual OTA tuners built in.
> 
> Then the HR21 shows up at the same price but with no OTA tuners.
> 
> Now the price has dropped to $199 and If I need the tuners to get OTA HD of the 5 HD channels that D* does not carry in the Charlotte, NC market I have to purchase an AM21 tuner for at best 50-75 more dollars, and add to my equipment list in my media room and burning more energy.
> 
> And now the HR20 is no longer available???
> 
> Where is the logic. :nono2:


You are also forgetting...

Reductions in the costs of the hard drives..
Reductions in the costs of the other components...
Reductions in the overal manufacturing costs, because of production size..

There is a whole lot more then went into the price drop of the actual unit then just the removal of the ATSC tuners.

To the last point.

So you have the power specs on the AM21-HR21 combo, and know that it is going to use more power then the HR20 (with the built in tuners) ?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

looter said:


> Didn't DIRECTV include OTA tuners in the HR10-250 because they didn't broadcast most local HDs in the first place?


Yes.



looter said:


> Now that they broadcast many HD locals. It makes sense to have the AM21 add-on for those who want OTAs, but to leave it out of their default HD DVR.
> 
> Having said that. Their timing is horrible. This needed to come out AT THE SAME TIME as the HR21. DIRECTV has lied to people and told them they'd receive HR20s and sent them HR21s with no OTA solution available to this day.
> 
> Otherwise, send people what you tell them you are sending them and keep making HR20s until a real replacement is available.
> 
> Hopefully, this will be a non-issue shortly.


Why?

Say there are 200,000 customers wanting an HD-DVR (since the release of the HR21)

If 90% of them don't care about ATSC...
180,000 who will get an HR21... with DirecTV saving $50 a pop...
$9,000,000

Now say that 10% of those that want ATSC... how many at least still have some sort of HD Locals, even though they would like ATSC as well..

That are content enough to wait for the AM21...

While it would have been advantageous to have both at the same time...
For the time period that it hasn't been available, it is not overly horrible if you look at the ENTIRE DirecTV targeted customer base.

(And note those numbers are just estimates above... even if it was 50/50... the numbers still pan out that this was not a horrible decision)


----------



## looter

Earl Bonovich said:


> You are also forgetting...
> 
> Reductions in the costs of the hard drives..
> Reductions in the costs of the other components...
> Reductions in the overal manufacturing costs, because of production size..
> 
> There is a whole lot more then went into the price drop of the actual unit then just the removal of the ATSC tuners.
> 
> To the last point.
> 
> So you have the power specs on the AM21-HR21 combo, and know that it is going to use more power then the HR20 (with the built in tuners) ?


Yeah, with all the advances in flash drives, traditional HDDs are dirt cheap. The same reason my 1st DIRECTV tuner and dish were $800 in 1995 and I installed it myself. Manufacturing costs tend to decrease with time and volume. And yanking out 2 OTA tuners doesn't hurt either.

What's the current difference in power draw between the HR20 and HR21?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

looter said:


> What's the current difference in power draw between the HR20 and HR21?


I don't think anyone has done the analysis.


----------



## Luke_Y

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...Now say that 10% of those that want ATSC... how many at least still have some sort of HD Locals, even though they would like ATSC as well...
> 
> That are content enough to wait for the AM21...
> 
> ...it is not overly horrible if you look at the ENTIRE DirecTV targeted customer base...


Waiting here, but I have no D* HD locals, and I'd like to get the new equipment to get the rest of the new HD chan. So I am waiting, but I wouldn't exactly call it _content_ 

I am just glad that there is a solution around the corner. Two weeks ago I was stuck, didn't know WTF to do, as I wanted to upgrade but couldn't lay my hands on a HR20.

The timing was _good_ from a business standpoint, just bad for the minority of customers in the position I am in...

I'm not mad at D*, I'm glad they have a solution. They just need to hurry up with availability.


----------



## looter

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Say there are 200,000 customers wanting an HD-DVR (since the release of the HR21)
> 
> If 90% of them don't care about ATSC...
> 180,000 who will get an HR21... with DirecTV saving $50 a pop...
> $9,000,000
> 
> Now say that 10% of those that want ATSC... how many at least still have some sort of HD Locals, even though they would like ATSC as well..
> 
> That are content enough to wait for the AM21...
> 
> While it would have been advantageous to have both at the same time...
> For the time period that it hasn't been available, it is not overly horrible if you look at the ENTIRE DirecTV targeted customer base.
> 
> (And note those numbers are just estimates above... even if it was 50/50... the numbers still pan out that this was not a horrible decision)


That may be great for DIRECTV. Not so much for the consumer. But, I'm not saying "it's overly horrible"; We are talking about a DVR here not life and death.

And none of those is a good argument against having control over your inventory. If a customer is told "we are sending you receiver X", they should get receiver X, not receiver X-Y.

Personally, I had OTAs on my HR10-250 was told multiple times I would receive an HR20 and received an HR21. Obviously from this forum, I am not alone. Bait and switch is often used to describe this tactic. But I think it was more ineptness on DIRECTV's part than anything.

All this talk of DIRECTV saving $, I haven't noticed my monthly bill dropping either.

At the end of the day, I think DIRECTV is finally going in the right direction. That is something I didn't feel over the last 3 years or so.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

looter said:


> All this talk of DIRECTV saving $, I haven't noticed my monthly bill dropping either.


And you probably never will...
But on the reverse, you won't be seeing your monthly bill rising drastically either.


----------



## mhammett

Maruuk said:


> It is pretty huge, but that $59 would help a lot. I smell a $99 price though. But it would be way smart of DTV to sell at cost, or a little above. At $59, it would go a long way to diffuse the reasonable argument that "why should I have to pay extra for what the HD-LIL or especially the HR20 folks get for free?". I hope this doesn't mean they are immediately discontinuing the HR20 swapouts!


Electronics from service providers are almost always advertised below cost. Think cell phones, video game consoles, sat boxes, cable boxes, etc.


----------



## Maruuk

Okay, so we have to deal with this situation. For guys like me the only thing I need to know is: What is the FASTEST method for obtaining an AM21? Do we have to wait until it goes up on the DTV site as an orderable item? Or could it appear in some store chain first? Or do we slip Earl a benjamin and get one that fell off a truck?


----------



## Maruuk

You know speaking of the swapouts, I have 3 HR20s and two HR21s and the 21's PQ blow the 20s away on my 1080p set. My tech who came by last night said, "The HR-100s are junk. Constantly need servicing or replacement."

I can bear that out. All 3 of mine are useless.

With the AM21 imminent, I'd recommend to all my fellow LIL-less clan to go with the 21 and just suck it up for a month or two. You get better PQ, a bigger drive (than the 700) and a more reliable piece of hardware.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The HR20's video chipset is identical that of the HR21's

Do you have the HR20's connected to the same input as the HR21's ?


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, they were all hooked to the same setup. Maybe it's that new D/L I got last night. And the tech did just stick a new LNB rack on, too. Or maybe the Ka band pigtail converters have been upgraded. SD looks better on the 21, too.


----------



## Doug Brott

Maruuk said:


> And the tech did just stick a new LNB rack on, too.


Hmmmm ... I wonder if that has been the biggest source of your problems ... (discounting OTA, of course)


----------



## He Save Dave

When Is This Being Released?


----------



## Maruuk

Naw, the audio problems on the 20 stations stayed the same on the HR20 after the swapout of the LNBs, and disappeared once we installed a new HR21. The problem was HR20-specific, but nobody could figure out why, especially since 2 HR20s had exactly the same channel/audio artifacts. 

So they stopped figuring out and just went home. I'm happy knowing that I'll have "the solution" soon, plus a 21. Those 20s kind of give me the creeps after 3 in a row failed. And I like the bigger HD.


----------



## Maruuk

Oh, expect it by March 1. I'd like to think sooner. If I can bust into the factory I will.


----------



## JBernardK

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Say there are 200,000 customers wanting an HD-DVR (since the release of the HR21)
> 
> If 90% of them don't care about ATSC...
> 180,000 who will get an HR21... with DirecTV saving $50 a pop...
> $9,000,000
> 
> Now say that 10% of those that want ATSC... how many at least still have some sort of HD Locals, even though they would like ATSC as well..
> 
> That are content enough to wait for the AM21...
> 
> While it would have been advantageous to have both at the same time...
> For the time period that it hasn't been available, it is not overly horrible if you look at the ENTIRE DirecTV targeted customer base.
> 
> (And note those numbers are just estimates above... even if it was 50/50... the numbers still pan out that this was not a horrible decision)


If it costs Directv $50 to put the OTA tuners in the HR20, then how can they sell the AM21 for $59. Certainly the case and power supply add more than $9 to the cost.


----------



## hasan

JBernardK said:


> If it costs Directv $50 to put the OTA tuners in the HR20, then how can they sell the AM21 for $59. Certainly the case and power supply add more than $9 to the cost.


Since we don't know the actual cost...

It is not unheard of for D* (and many other manufacturers) to provide equipment to the end user well below its actual cost. They make the money back in programming packages many times over. Just like printers...the money is made in the ink cartridges.


----------



## Jeremy W

hasan said:


> It is not unheard of for D* (and many other manufacturers) to provide equipment to the end user well below its actual cost. They make the money back in programming packages many times over. Just like printers...the money is made in the ink cartridges.


Plus, DirecTV has the luxury of locking their customers into a 2-year contract whenever they buy new equipment. So they know that their subsidies will be paid off.


----------



## looter

Earl Bonovich said:


> And you probably never will...
> But on the reverse, you won't be seeing your monthly bill rising drastically either.


No, my monthly bill hasn't gone up drastically per se. But didn't it go up $3 not that long ago? Then there is that $10 HD Fee, and there's the separate HD package not included in HD fee, etc.

NFLST is another one. If they raise it again it's pretty much beyond what I'm willing to pay. And insisting on the ridiculous Superfan price just to see games in HD (not included in HD fee or HD package). I guess they'll burn that bridge when they come to it.

I hope it doesn't go up drastically. I already spend more on DIRECTV than home owner's insurance or car insurance!

Yet, it's usually cheaper than cable. How about those oligopolies.


----------



## Doug Brott

Maruuk said:


> Oh, expect it by March 1. I'd like to think sooner. If I can bust into the factory I will.


Probably not much sooner than the, but you never know .. stranger things have happened.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Probably not much sooner than the, but you never know .. stranger things have happened.


I would think it will be the week after they feel they have a good number of these units in field warehouses poised for delivery, and not soon. Those first few weeks, they'll be overwhelmed with orders...


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Those first few weeks, they'll be overwhelmed with orders...


I disagree. Will there be an initial surge in orders? Absolutely. Will it be anywhere near a level that is "overwhelming"? I can't see that happening. The people ordering in the first few weeks will be the people who heard about it on here, and have been begging for this for a long time. If you go crazy with the number of people, it's a thousand or two at the very most. That's nowhere near an overwhelming number of people.


----------



## CJTE

Jeremy W said:


> I disagree. Will there be an initial surge in orders? Absolutely. Will it be anywhere near a level that is "overwhelming"? I can't see that happening. The people ordering in the first few weeks will be the people who heard about it on here, and have been begging for this for a long time. If you go crazy with the number of people, it's a thousand or two at the very most. That's nowhere near an overwhelming number of people.


Yea, but the HSP's in those markets are going to be out anywhere from 1-2 weeks before an available appt time will be available because they'll be booked with installs.


----------



## Jeremy W

CJTE said:


> Yea, but the HSP's in those markets are going to be out anywhere from 1-2 weeks before an available appt time will be available because they'll be booked with installs.


That's making the assumption that HSPs will have to be involved. Obviously none of this is known yet, but I don't think it's all that crazy to think that DirecTV will simply FedEx an AM21 out, and have the customer install it themselves.


----------



## CJTE

Jeremy W said:


> That's making the assumption that HSPs will have to be involved. Obviously none of this is known yet, but I don't think it's all that crazy to think that DirecTV will simply FedEx an AM21 out, and have the customer install it themselves.


Yea, second that I realized you're probably right... And I cant wait to hear how many people cant figure the USB out...
Or try to plug it into there computer...


----------



## Jeremy W

CJTE said:


> Or try to plug it into there computer...


But it's a USB port, and it fits perfectly, so why can't I plug it into my computer and get OTA channels? Give me 12 months of the HD Pack for free, this is outrageous!


----------



## CJTE

Jeremy W said:


> But it's a USB port, and it fits perfectly, so why can't I plug it into my computer and get OTA channels? Give me 12 months of the HD Pack for free, this is outrageous!


Where can I download that?


----------



## Maruuk

Jeez, I mean, if you need an install on an AM21, you also need one for your new toaster and maybe set up an appointment with GE to get that new lightbulb screwed in.


----------



## thull

DBSNewbie said:


> As nice as the AM21/HR21 Combo looks, I think I may be the only one here who has a problem with this "Stacked" OTA solution.
> 
> Let me explain...
> 
> I currently have six TVs in the den being fed by (3) HR20-700s and (3) H20-600s, which are neatly installed in a custom Rack. Those D* receivers alone take up 12 Rack Spaces.
> 
> The problem I have is that D* receivers don't last forever and all six will eventually have to get replaced. (My personal experience with D* has shown me that of the 11 total receivers I have, at least one goes bad and needs replacement per year). It's a good thing I have the Protection Plan, so it doesn't cost me a dime to get them swapped out.
> 
> However, if one day the HR21/AM21 Combo is the only option I will have , then that means I will have to find up to 6 more rack spaces to place them in, which I currently don't have.


oh boo-hoo :lol:

it could be worse - what if you only had room for 5 TVs?!

--

On another note, I am very happy to hear that DirecTV has come out with this solution.

I was one of the unlucky few who only learned of the ATSC loss after I had bought and installed the HR21 to replace my H20.

I was on the phone last week with a CSR @ D* asking of a tuner upgrade and she said there was nothing planned for us - so this is very surprising.

The combination of both sat tuners plus dual ATSC tuners in a matching box is perfect for those of us with an HR21 and an extra rack space 

Kudos to DirecTV - now just activate the video on demand, activate network video streaming (with better codecs) and I'll be dancing on the coffee table!

_edit: PIP would be nice too_


----------



## dtrell

thull said:


> oh boo-hoo :lol:
> 
> I was on the phone last week with a CSR @ D* asking of a tuner upgrade and she said there was nothing planned for us - so this is very surprising.


its not the least bit surprising...DTV CSRs are the LAST people to hear about ANYTHING there...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dtrell said:


> its not the least bit surprising...DTV CSRs are the LAST people to hear about ANYTHING there...


Correct - you can safely assume that CSR's are informed about new equipment releases in general at their staff meetings perhaps 2 weeks before the equipment is actually available. Some get copies of an internal memo.

Before that, a few may hear about it, but nothing official is distributed internally for them to communicate....they are specifically instructed NOT to give information on anything that they have not officially be instructed on, so they're just doing their jobs.

We just happen to be fortunate here that we have folks with connections here at DBSTalk that share advance information on this stuff. 

:backtotop

The AM21 will most likely see a surge in demand initially, and then level off. I suspect DirecTV is anticipating this, so they'll announce the availability when the time is right based on inventories.


----------



## bonscott87

Maruuk said:


> Jeez, I mean, if you need an install on an AM21, you also need one for your new toaster and maybe set up an appointment with GE to get that new lightbulb screwed in.


Unfortunately it's true. My mom told me over Christmas that they paid the Geek Squad at Best Buy $70 to hook up their printer (which of course nowadays is simply plugging in the USB port and you're done. *Maybe* a driver disk but most printers will work without it).

And then they had them back out to hook up the Wii they got in the fall (which of course is just hook up the A/V cables).

I honestly was shocked and was sad that I live too far away to do this for them. They are retired and don't know much about electronics and wasted nearly $200 for somebody to plug in a couple cables. :eek2: And I know plenty of people under the age of 40 that do the same thing. I guess we all have our own expertise but it's sad really how much these people are taken advantage of.


----------



## carl6

bonscott87 said:


> I guess we all have our own expertise but it's sad really how much these people are taken advantage of.


I don't see how this is taking advantage. It costs the business money to send someone out to do those connections and they are recovering those costs. The fact that your folks got an appointment, and someone who knew what he was doing showed up and did the job right, shows that this business model works.

If they used the HSP model that DirecTV uses for "free installation" the appointment would have been two to four weeks out and who knows who would have shown up or what kind of job they did, as has been posted so many times on these and other forums.

Carl


----------



## Dave

Has DirectV said that the $ 59 fee is to purchase outright, or is this going to be another rental unit. I know all the companies are doing the rentals on there boxes. But is this just another chance for DirectV to get some more monthly fees from anyone that orders this equipment? Sure am glad I have the extra inputs on my TV. So I can hook up OTA for free without the extra cost of this box. In case my HR20 ever goes out and they have to send me a HR21 replacement for it.


----------



## Luke_Y

Dave said:


> ... Sure am glad I have the extra inputs on my TV. So I can hook up OTA for free without the extra cost of this box. In case my HR20 ever goes out and they have to send me a HR21 replacement for it.


Yes well, I am sure many of have that option. But it would be pretty lame to have a DVR and not be able to record the 4 major networks...


----------



## BersaMan II

Pretty much irks me that I currently have two HR20-700s with OTA and pay nothing extra for and yet in order for me to get OTA on my HR21-700 it is going to cost extra! GREED has struck again!


----------



## johnp37

Tom Robertson said:


> The current pricing information we have from Robert at Valueelectonics is that the MSRP will be $59.
> 
> The AM21 is expected to be GA at the end of February.
> 
> And it will work on the H21, tho not immediately. A new software release cycle will be needed for the H21 family.
> 
> I don't know about the HR20 yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


 Why would you need the AM21 on a HR20/H20? It already has off air capability.


----------



## litzdog911

johnp37 said:


> Why would you need the AM21 on a HR20/H20? It already has off air capability.


Some folks have speculated that the AM21's off-air tuner hardware might be better than the tuners in the HR20 HD DVR or H20 HD Receiver.


----------



## Jeremy W

Dave said:


> Has DirectV said that the $ 59 fee is to purchase outright, or is this going to be another rental unit. I know all the companies are doing the rentals on there boxes. But is this just another chance for DirectV to get some more monthly fees from anyone that orders this equipment?


Whether it's actually considered leased or not, there will be *no* additional monthly charge for the unit.


----------



## AZ_Engineer

First of all, let me say that I agree that the AM21 solution looks pretty elegant. I still wish it were intergrated into the HR21, but I understand the economics.

Now, to all those who don't use OTA. If you own your own home and live in a large metro area, I urge you to try OTA. I have a typical 2 story suburban home in the Phoenix area. I have a 10 year old Terk bar antenna mounted on the eave of the second story. I painted the antenna to match the trim, and its barely visible from the ground. With this Terk, and the HR10-250, I get all the HD channels in the Phoenix metro area, and I get them in the best possible quality level. If I were to use the Directv locals, they would be recompressed in MPEG4, (possibly at a lower quality level to save space), and I would only have access to 6 HD channels. I would not have PBS, and I wouldn't have a news sub channel that does round the clock local weather. Given my experience, it I had to start over, I'd still buy and antenna and the AM21 versus relying on the Directv's locals.

Any others think like me?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

AZ_Engineer said:


> First of all, let me say that I agree that the AM21 solution looks pretty elegant. I still wish it were intergrated into the HR21, but I understand the economics.
> 
> Now, to all those who don't use OTA. If you own your own home and live in a large metro area, I urge you to try OTA. I have a typical 2 story suburban home in the Phoenix area. I have a 10 year old Terk bar antenna mounted on the eave of the second story. I painted the antenna to match the trim, and its barely visible from the ground. With this Terk, and the HR10-250, I get all the HD channels in the Phoenix metro area, and I get them in the best possible quality level. If I were to use the Directv locals, they would be recompressed in MPEG4, (possibly at a lower quality level to save space), and I would only have access to 6 HD channels. I would not have PBS, and I wouldn't have a news sub channel that does round the clock local weather. Given my experience, it I had to start over, I'd still buy and antenna and the AM21 versus relying on the Directv's locals.
> 
> Any others think like me?


I respect both yoru decision and experience.

In my case, I chose to install OTA (Stealth ChannelMaster antenna) about 6 years ago in my area. At that time, I was only the 2nd in my 500+ subdivision of larger homes to have any kind of external antenna (including DirecTV). That has changed alot over the years in terms fo dishes, but not OTA.

I reconnected OTA as I upgraded DVR and other equipment over the years, purely because it was already there, and cost nothing to do so.

Having used both for this whole time, quite frankly I can count on one hand how many times per year I use OTA (except when I did comparison testing early on). I don't watch PBS much at all, but I do get 17-18 strong signal OTA channels.

My experience has been that comparative viewing of OTA and DirecTV HD on the same channel at the same time renders virtually no difference. I have had over 50 people here viewing both as well and they could not see the smallest of differences either. That's purely subjective, but adaquate for my purposes.

I feel that OTA is critical for some, nice for others, and un-necessary for most. The user reports seem to bear this out.

For those who have no locals or bad locals, it is a must-have, at least until they get their locals.

For those who prefer PBS, etc., it is a must have until DirecTV adds these local channels later this year.

For the rest of us, OTA is one of those things that we can typically live without alltogether.

The development of the HR21 DVR units with the corresponding optional AM21 OTA device (as opposed to the previous HR20 models that all had OTA built in at a higher construction cost to DirecTV overall) seems to parallel these market realities quite well.

I am happy that those who must have OTA will get a solution that satisfies their needs.


----------



## hasan

AZ_Engineer said:


> First of all, let me say that I agree that the AM21 solution looks pretty elegant. I still wish it were intergrated into the HR21, but I understand the economics.
> 
> Now, to all those who don't use OTA. If you own your own home and live in a large metro area, I urge you to try OTA. I have a typical 2 story suburban home in the Phoenix area. I have a 10 year old Terk bar antenna mounted on the eave of the second story. I painted the antenna to match the trim, and its barely visible from the ground. With this Terk, and the HR10-250, I get all the HD channels in the Phoenix metro area, and I get them in the best possible quality level. If I were to use the Directv locals, they would be recompressed in MPEG4, (possibly at a lower quality level to save space), and I would only have access to 6 HD channels. I would not have PBS, and I wouldn't have a news sub channel that does round the clock local weather. Given my experience, it I had to start over, I'd still buy and antenna and the AM21 versus relying on the Directv's locals.
> 
> Any others think like me?


Yes, although the score is still out on just how good the HD-LIL stations can look (MPEG-4). Some report virtually no difference, others prefer direct OTA. I'm very much an OTA person and will continue doing OTA even after we get HD-LIL (which were promised for end of '06 and still haven't shown up. )

As long as there is OTA available, I intend to have a good OTA antenna and make use of this wonderful resource. The best kept secret in central Iowa is that all the major networks are available free (including sub-channels) and can be received with nothing more than a $29.00 set of rabbit ears/uhf loop from Wal-Mart. The Phillips antenna has a 4 dB noise figure adjustable gain preamp that does amazingly well. My outside antenna does considerably better, but there are hundreds of people in our area using the Wal-Mart Phillips and doing quite nicely for HD-OTA. (N.B., this antenna is NOT effective in a basement in our area....duh...no antenna does all that well below ground level )

My only concern for integration is not "physical", but electronic, i.e., recording and seamless guide, which we will have.


----------



## 2Guysfootball

Is there any chance they will try and RusH this out for the SuperBowl?
I know it is pushing it very fast but,I would love to be able to record it in full HD.


----------



## Draconis

I have only one thing I am disappointed about with the unit. 

I think that DIRECTV should build in the ability to use it by itself as a DTV tuner without being attached to a receiver.

You know, have it be able to work with a DIRECTV HD receiver or by itself. That way DIRECTV could cash in the DTV conversion that is happening in 2009. 

(If they did so they would not be the only DBS provider to try taking advantage of this, Dish was marketing stand-alone DTV converters at CES.)


----------



## DBSNewbie

AZ_Engineer said:


> First of all, let me say that I agree that the AM21 solution looks pretty elegant. I still wish it were intergrated into the HR21, but I understand the economics.
> 
> Now, to all those who don't use OTA. If you own your own home and live in a large metro area, I urge you to try OTA. I have a typical 2 story suburban home in the Phoenix area. I have a 10 year old Terk bar antenna mounted on the eave of the second story. I painted the antenna to match the trim, and its barely visible from the ground. With this Terk, and the HR10-250, I get all the HD channels in the Phoenix metro area, and I get them in the best possible quality level. If I were to use the Directv locals, they would be recompressed in MPEG4, (possibly at a lower quality level to save space), and I would only have access to 6 HD channels. I would not have PBS, and I wouldn't have a news sub channel that does round the clock local weather. Given my experience, it I had to start over, I'd still buy and antenna and the AM21 versus relying on the Directv's locals.
> 
> Any others think like me?


Another problem with D* LiLs is that from time to time they go out (At least here in Los Angeles). This is the reason why I primarily tune into the OTA feed of the network telecasts.

Just out of sheer coincidence, last night during the Patriots/Jags game on CBS I began to flip through channels during a commercial break towards the end of the game. When I tuned into D* Lil for CBS HD, this is what I saw:

Imagine if this had happened during the Super Bowl.


----------



## wmj5

directv since 1995: I think D* should send someone out to fix the am21 they are the ones that came up with the dam things, I am lucky enough to have a h20-100,this is the 3rd one I've had, the last one I ordered I told retention I wanted a new one, they sent it by a tech. and it cost me 6 more months of commitment, I have learned if you don't watch what you are doing they will keep you commited.


----------



## litzdog911

wmj5 said:


> directv since 1995: I think D* should send someone out to fix the am21 they are the ones that came up with the dam things, I am lucky enough to have a h20-100,this is the 3rd one I've had, the last one I ordered I told retention I wanted a new one, they sent it by a tech. and it cost me 6 more months of commitment, I have learned if you don't watch what you are doing they will keep you commited.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

AZ_Engineer said:


> First of all, let me say that I agree that the AM21 solution looks pretty elegant. I still wish it were intergrated into the HR21, but I understand the economics.
> 
> Now, to all those who don't use OTA. If you own your own home and live in a large metro area, I urge you to try OTA. I have a typical 2 story suburban home in the Phoenix area. I have a 10 year old Terk bar antenna mounted on the eave of the second story. I painted the antenna to match the trim, and its barely visible from the ground. With this Terk, and the HR10-250, I get all the HD channels in the Phoenix metro area, and I get them in the best possible quality level. If I were to use the Directv locals, they would be recompressed in MPEG4, (possibly at a lower quality level to save space), and I would only have access to 6 HD channels. I would not have PBS, and I wouldn't have a news sub channel that does round the clock local weather. Given my experience, it I had to start over, I'd still buy and antenna and the AM21 versus relying on the Directv's locals.
> 
> Any others think like me?


I agree, I live in Phoenix too and can get all of the locals with that $25 UHF only antenna from RS on the back of my house. I actually had issues with channel 15 and 61 with my TV tuner, but once I got the HR20 I was able to pull them all in with no problem. I know some people that can also get the Tucson stations. We are very lucky.

I really can't tell the difference between the locals and the satellite LIL HD's, they look pretty good to me.


----------



## carl6

wmj5 said:


> I have learned if you don't watch what you are doing they will keep you commited.


Some of us probably deserve to be committed:lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

hasan said:


> I'm very much an OTA person and will continue doing OTA even after we get HD-LIL


Why? You've never seen your locals via HD-LIL, so why pre-judge them? If they look the same as OTA, which is the case most of the time, why wouldn't you take the file size advantage on the DVR?


----------



## tkrandall

They have now created two different OTA configurations: HR20 or HR21 + AM21. 

Based on the way they have "handled" the HR20/HR21 requests by those who wanted an HR20 for OTA (i.e. they haven't handled it well) I'm concerned DirecTV will do the same thing all over and end up sending out refurbed HR20s to those who have an AM21 and want an HR21 that can co-function with it. They need to clear up their ordering system to handle this.


----------



## hasan

Jeremy W said:


> Why? You've never seen your locals via HD-LIL, so why pre-judge them? If they look the same as OTA, which is the case most of the time, why wouldn't you take the file size advantage on the DVR?


1. Transcoding: MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. The book is still out on how significant the losses are.

2. Reliabilityrecip fade on Sat, never had precip fade on OTA here...EVER.

3. Channel Availability: I watch/record channels that D* does not carry.

...and I have plenty of HD space, not an issue for me.

This has been my experience (precip fade). I have very good signals via sat, but the large thunderstorms and heavy snow squalls in Iowa are a thing to behold. They interrupt the sat signal and have no effect whatsoever on my OTA setup. In other geographic areas, this may not be a problem, but it is here.

One size doesn't fit all...it never will. The factors above, along with several others have been discussed to death. Acting like they don't exist (for some people) is disingenuous at best.

Is that enough "why" for you?


----------



## Sirshagg

Jeremy W said:


> Why? You've never seen your locals via HD-LIL, so why pre-judge them? If they look the same as OTA, which is the case most of the time, why wouldn't you take the file size advantage on the DVR?


In my experience the OTA HD locals have been far more reliable than the sat HD locals. It's been a while since i tried them from the sat and just this weekend I switched over a few Sl's to the sat channels to see again.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Sirshagg said:


> In my experience the OTA HD locals have been far more reliable than the sat HD locals. It's been a while since i tried them from the sat and just this weekend I switched over a few Sl's to the sat channels to see again.


Given that most of the SAT HD Locals are dependent on the OTA HD in the area... then by definition, they are probably more reliable.

The question is... how much more, is dependent on your area... and on what impact is it.

In two years of having HD Locals via SAT....

I have used the OTA signal very limittedly.... and more often then not, it is to check to see if there was a problem with OTA, since the SAT wasn't working... (which all but one time, was the case).

All my series links are set to my SAT feeds...


----------



## Sirshagg

Earl Bonovich said:


> Given that most of the SAT HD Locals are dependent on the OTA HD in the area... then by definition, they are probably more reliable.
> 
> The question is... how much more, is dependent on your area... and on what impact is it.
> 
> In two years of having HD Locals via SAT....
> 
> I have used the OTA signal very limittedly.... and more often then not, it is to check to see if there was a problem with OTA, since the SAT wasn't working... (which all but one time, was the case).
> 
> All my series links are set to my SAT feeds...


This is the OTA antenna I'm using. It's in my attic, about 30 miles from the transmitters, and behind a mountain. I still get OTA signals just fine. I would think that DirecTv would have a slightly better setup for receiving the OTA signals than I do. If not perhaps we should talk and I'm sure we can come to some arrangement where they can use mine. :lol:

My point here is that I get the OTA signals just fine in a setup that's far from ideal, why can't DirecTv?


----------



## DBSNewbie

Sirshagg said:


> My point here is that I get the OTA signals just fine in a setup that's far from ideal, why can't DirecTv?


I agree, just the other day during the Patriots/Jags game on CBS. The D* HD LiL feed went out, while the OTA was just fine.

See Post 326 in this thread.


----------



## Sirshagg

DBSNewbie said:


> I agree, just the other day during the Patriots/Jags game on CBS. The D* HD LiL feed went out, while the OTA was just fine.
> 
> See Post 326 in this thread.


What I find really hilarious is when this happens and DirecTv puts up a message something like "the local broadcaster is havin a problem, please don't contact us". REALLY, the local broadcaster is having a problem? Then why is it coming in via OTA just fine???


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Sirshagg said:


> This is the OTA antenna I'm using. It's in my attic, about 30 miles from the transmitters, and behind a mountain. I still get OTA signals just fine. I would think that DirecTv would have a slightly better setup for receiving the OTA signals than I do. If not perhaps we should talk and I'm sure we can come to some arrangement where they can use mine. :lol:
> 
> My point here is that I get the OTA signals just fine in a setup that's far from ideal, why can't DirecTv?


I think in most cases they have setups that are a LOT more elaborate then the home users.... but that is only a fraction of the process that gets the OTA from the DMA to your box via SAT.

You have the tunning equipment, which is just like any other piece of tuning equipment... may have an issue.

Then you have MPEG-4 encoders...
Then you have SAT Uplinks
Then you have SAT Downlinks
Then you have the security encoding
Then you have another Uplink
Then down to your box.

A lot of things go on... and if one if them is not working... then yes, something could go wrong.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Sirshagg said:


> What I find really hilarious is when this happens and DirecTv puts up a message something like "the local broadcaster is havin a problem, please don't contact us". REALLY, the local broadcaster is having a problem? Then why is it coming in via OTA just fine???


I have never seen a slide, where they said it is the "local broadcaster".

They have put a slide stating that they are aware of the problem, and are working on it... but never have put blame on the issue.

(There is some cases, historically... where they have put more information, but that is very detailed and specific ones.... like the ones where the TOWER fell down... I am sure they are/were prepared to put a more detailed slide up rather then the generic).

All we know is when we get that slide... it is not an issue between DirecTV and the customer... but "something" from the local broadcaster and DirecTV...

Something in that setup... which could be the uplink center, could be the provider changed something with their OTA, that their receivers could not understand.... in some markets, the broadcasters have changed channels... and the update didn't make it everyone that needed...(in there for tribune, so our boxes got it automatically... but the hard-coded tuners in the uplink centers need to be adjusted)... things like that.

Could be the uplink center in the DMA having a power failure... or a structural failure... ect...


----------



## Tom Robertson

On SD channels I have seen an automatically generated slide that there was a reception problem. I may have seen it also on an HD channel once, briefly, before the "We are aware of the problem" slide was put up, I presume by the broadcast center.

But that really doesn't matter. DIRECTV has been very solid for me with the new dish that fine tunes so tightly to the peak of the satellite signals.

And OTA is important to DIRECTV, important enough to spend money to save money rather than just save money (by merely removing OTA completely.)

As I said, there will likely be times when DIRECTV has to work out some logistics and they will.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I have to be honest, with my setup I probably shouldn't even get OTA, it just shouldn't work. But it does, and as far as quality, I find KCBS-DT (OTA) to be slightly superior in some cases to DIRECTV's KCBS-MPEG4, however I actually find KABC-DT (OTA) to be worse than KABC-MPEG4. There is less macroblocking and a touch better contrast.


----------



## bobnielsen

I have problems with a few OTA locals, but I suspect that come Feb 2009 when the switch come it will improve. I understand that one of them (KOMO-ABC) has their main (analog) antenna on the tower top and the antenna for digital mounted lower on the side of the tower, which results in a much poorer pattern. Even the station's chief engineer was surprised that I was having problems with them.

My local Fox station (KCPQ) is in a different direction with hills in the way so it is an impossibility for me. Unfortunately these two did not get carried in HD by Directv until well after the NBC and CBS locals and Dish still does not have the Fox station (Tribune). 

I plan to get a AM21 mainly for the PBS and CW locals. There is another PBS station in Tacoma but I suspect that Directv will only carry the one from Seattle so I will be limited to SD with the other one.


----------



## John in Georgia

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have never seen a slide, where they said it is the "local broadcaster".
> ..


I have seen this several times before, Earl.

"The local station is experiencing a problem -- please do not contact DirecTV" (or something along those lines).


----------



## Sirshagg

John in Georgia said:


> I have seen this several times before, Earl.
> 
> "The local station is experiencing a problem -- please do not contact DirecTV" (or something along those lines).


Yep, something like that. Then you tune to the OTA channel and no problem.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

John in Georgia said:


> I have seen this several times before, Earl.
> 
> "The local station is experiencing a problem -- please do not contact DirecTV" (or something along those lines).


On the HD LiL's or the SD LiL's ?

I guess it hasn't happen enough here in Chicago for me to see the all the different versions of the slide.


----------



## DBSNewbie

John in Georgia said:


> I have seen this several times before, Earl.
> 
> "The local station is experiencing a problem -- please do not contact DirecTV" (or something along those lines).


See Post #326 for a picture of the slide. It goes to show how having OTA is a good backup. The D* feed was down, while OTA came in just fine.


----------



## Sirshagg

Earl Bonovich said:


> On the HD LiL's or the SD LiL's ?


HD



DBSNewbie said:


> See Post #326 for a picture of the slide.


That's not the one I'm talking about though. Similiar, but it definitely stated the problems was with the station.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think the confusion is that the slide says the TV station is temporarily unavailble. While it's possible to infer that the problem is on the broadcast end, it's really an open ended statement and could also mean that problems on the encoding or retransmission sides could also be to blame. It's not reasonable to expect them to fully disclose the nature of the outage.


----------



## DBSNewbie

Earl Bonovich said:


> On the HD LiL's or the SD LiL's ?
> 
> I guess it hasn't happen enough here in Chicago for me to see the all the different versions of the slide.


In the particular instance mentioned in Post #326, the HD Lil for CBS was down, while OTA CBS HD was coming in.

The SD Lil was fine, as well as HD DNS CBS West Channel 81.

I guess it was a Spot Beam Issue.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

DBSNewbie said:


> See Post #326 for a picture of the slide. It goes to show how having OTA is a good backup. The D* feed was down, while OTA came in just fine.


But that particular slide, doesn't put the blame on any one particular piece of the puzzle...

Just that there is an issue with that TV station (what people commonly refer to as the channel)... and that DirecTV knows about it.


----------



## DBSNewbie

Earl Bonovich said:


> But that particular slide, doesn't put the blame on any one particular piece of the puzzle...
> 
> Just that there is an issue with that TV station (what people commonly refer to as the channel)... and that DirecTV knows about it.


Regardless of who or what is to blame, the point is that the D* feed was down, while the OTA feed was fine.

Imagine if this happened during the Super Bowl.

Thus, the importance of having OTA as a backup and how the upcoming availability of the AM21 would allow us to "Feel the Joy" of having OTA capability for our next generation equipment.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

DBSNewbie said:


> Regardless of who or what is to blame, the point is that the D* feed was down, while the OTA feed was fine.
> 
> Imagine if this happened during the Super Bowl.
> 
> Thus, the importance of having OTA as a backup and how the upcoming availability of the AM21 would allow us to "Feel the Joy" of having OTA capability for our next generation equipment.


And that is why they are building it...
For all of you that need/want it, can have it.

ATSC isn't for everyone... but those that want it, can still have it.


----------



## Drew2k

This just came full circle, didn't it! 

It was informative, though.


----------



## hasan

Earl Bonovich said:


> And that is why they are building it...
> For all of you that need/want it, can have it.
> 
> ATSC isn't for everyone... but those that want it, can still have it.


That is perfectly correct, and I have no issue with Earl's position. However, when someone who should clearly know better comes back with "why", either they are thick or just trying to stir the pot on something that was well finished.

(Which is why I objected and responded to the specious "why" question.)

Some people don't know when to let well enough alone. We got our solution, and I am quite content with what is proposed and on the way. To have someone "backdoor" the discussion with the same old "you don't really need it" BS rubs me the wrong way. It is as if thousands of posts never happened.

There is a need, D* has addressed it, for God's sake, please let's not autopsy the horse yet another time (not directed at Earl).

How can we seriously get back into the need/don't need discussion all over again? Maybe I shouldn't have taken the bait...


----------



## hasan

Drew2k said:


> This just came full circle, didn't it!
> 
> It was informative, though.


Yes, it did, and it is borderline frightening.


----------



## Jeremy W

hasan said:


> However, when someone who should clearly know better comes back with "why", either they are thick or just trying to stir the pot on something that was well finished.


Thanks for the finely worded shot at me. When you state that the MPEG4 locals are crap and you won't use them, even though you've never even had the chance to use them, I feel the need to get some more information on why. I use my MPEG4 locals exclusively, and I have no problems with them. So your position confused me. You explained it with basically "I don't care about the advantages" and I accepted that answer and left it alone. There was no need for the personal attack.


----------



## Carl Spock

hasan said:


> Drew2k said:
> 
> 
> 
> This just came full circle, didn't it!
> 
> It was informative, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it did, and it is borderline frightening.
Click to expand...

Discussions on this board are fractals.


----------



## hasan

Jeremy W said:


> Thanks for the finely worded shot at me. When you state that the MPEG4 locals are crap and you won't use them, even though you've never even had the chance to use them, I feel the need to get some more information on why. I use my MPEG4 locals exclusively, and I have no problems with them. So your position confused me. You explained it with basically "I don't care about the advantages" and I accepted that answer and left it alone. There was no need for the personal attack.


Please quote me when I said the MPEG-4's were crap.....right...you can't because I have NEVER said any such thing. The MPEG-4's have certain limitations (basically, all sat signals share them, so it isn't particular to the compression scheme). I did say I would continue to use OTA and have made it clear, dozens of times as to why. So have many, many others. The rationale has been beaten to death, autopsied, resurrected and beaten again. For someone knowledgeable to ask "why" a person might be committed to OTA over a sat signal (when the same signal is available both places), strains credulity after all this time. Being "thick" is a conditioned observation, (if the reasons aren't clear by now, there is possibly a reading comprehension problem). My allusion to "stirring the pot" is much more of a shot, I'll admit. If the former is the case, you have my sympathy. If the latter, my dismay. (either of which will buy you a cup of coffee, with the addition of 50 cents at the cheap places)


----------



## Pink Fairy

Please, gentleman, let us stop the arguing and go back to regular discussions?


----------



## RobertE

Everyone to their respective corners for 5 minutes.


----------



## Pink Fairy

Aww! I so need to have that ready to copy and paste because it is so awesome!

(BTW Robert - what exactly is the avatar supposed to be?)


----------



## RobertE

okietekkie said:


> (BTW Robert - what exactly is the avatar supposed to be?)


Logo from Robotech/Macross.


----------



## looter

I think I need to add someone else to the ignore list to keep me from seeing these ridiculous flames.

Bring on the AM21. The sooner the better

Missing the end of the game sucked. I had it delayed and if I knew the HD sat feed was down I would have watched it on my HR10-250 via OTA or even the CBS national feed on the HR21.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Final warning... 

This thread was started to show off new hardware that is going to be released. We have thousands of posts on the subject already in the HR20/HR21 forum... here's where we can talk about the upcoming hardware, not the politics behind it. 

Let's move away from personal attacks and back to topic, I would really rather not close this one.


----------



## GP245

Stuart Sweet said:


> Final warning...
> 
> This thread was started to show off new hardware that is going to be released. We have thousands of posts on the subject already in the HR20/HR21 forum... here's where we can talk about the upcoming hardware, not the politics behind it.
> 
> Let's move away from personal attacks and back to topic, I would really rather not close this one.


A big Thank You!


----------



## IBleedGreen

GP245 said:


> A big Thank You!


I am very excited to get this unit, I know this might be redundant but are we looking at 
Feb/March time frame, or are they out? :sure:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

IBleedGreen said:


> I am very excited to get this unit, I know this might be redundant but are we looking at
> Feb/March time frame, or are they out? :sure:


They are not out yet...

And no hard dates have been set.


----------



## HighVoltage

As far as the question concerning the external supply power, the source power necessary to supply 2 ATSC tuners (BTW, MAXIM just announced a 760mW ATSC tuner chip), usb controller (~150mW), misc support circuitry and including any losses in the voltage regulator(s) to buck/drop the voltage down from 5.0V to 3.3V( maybe even another for 1.8V PLL?) may exceed the spec for USB (500ma @ 5.0V = 2000mW).



JBernardK said:


> If it costs Directv $50 to put the OTA tuners in the HR20, then how can they sell the AM21 for $59. Certainly the case and power supply add more than $9 to the cost.


No. For this size, formed sheet metal, plastic and screws in volume should fit just fine in this price range.


----------



## talkdj

Just had a Direct tech out to the house to realign the sat dish. I asked him about the possible reason that my OTA tuners in the HR20-700 are not working when I get all of my HD ota channels on my Sony TV. He said the tuners in the HR20 are not very good. He also said that if he swapped out the receiver for an HR21 I would loose the OTA tuners (which I knew) plus he said he didn't know if the AM21 would work with the program guide. He advised me that there was no ethernet jack on the HR21 too, so no DOD either. 

Did I just get a dud of a tech or what. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

HighVoltage said:


> As far as the question concerning the external supply power, the source power necessary to supply 2 ATSC tuners (BTW, MAXIM just announced a 760mW ATSC tuner chip), usb controller (~150mW), misc support circuitry and including any losses in the voltage regulator(s) to buck/drop the voltage down from 5.0V to 3.3V( maybe even another for 1.8V PLL?) may exceed the spec for USB (500ma @ 5.0V = 2000mW).


Exactly the point. That may be the reason that it is a standalone unit rather than a dongle. The power passthrough is very clever though.


----------



## HighVoltage

Stuart Sweet said:


> Exactly the point. That may be the reason that it is a standalone unit rather than a dongle. The power passthrough is very clever though.


Yes, however the idea of power passthrough is not unique. I can recall computer power supplies that did the same thing, sepcifically for the monitor.

The one caveat is how you present the output. By routing it through the unit you then have to current limit the output with respect to the PCB layout for that circuit or risk a possible short upstream from literally causing a fire in the unit. I dont recognize the output connector they chose, but I would imagine that output is product specific to the HR21 or other designated DirecTv accessories.

EDIT: Just noticed there doesnt seem to be an externally re-settable fuse. I would imagine a self resetting fuse (PTC) is being used and they are typically manufactured to handle holding currents of 10A and below.


----------



## tfederov

talkdj said:


> He advised me that there was no ethernet jack on the HR21 too, so no DOD either.
> 
> Did I just get a dud of a tech or what. Any help would be appreciated.


Bzzzt. There are Ethernet ports on the HR21.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I've been reading through this thread for the functionality of the "receiver link" port and cannot find it. Has it been disclosed/described?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I've been reading through this thread for the functionality of the "receiver link" port and cannot find it. Has it been disclosed/described?


That's the USB port...
That is how it will connect to the HR21


----------



## Stuart Sweet

tfederov said:


> Bzzzt. There are Ethernet ports on the HR21.


Two of them, I think.


----------



## tfederov

Stuart Sweet said:


> Two of them, I think.


Yep.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Earl Bonovich said:


> That's the USB port...
> That is how it will connect to the HR21


Makes sense..I didn't see the USB anywhere...but in the picture its hard to tell its a double USB (over and under) port.

In any case. Thanks for the clarification. This is indeed a fine unit.


----------



## HighVoltage

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Makes sense..I didn't see the USB anywhere...but in the picture its hard to tell its a double USB (over and under) port.


Its a typical USB type B port. You would use a Type A (HR21) to Type B (AM21) cable.

http://www.accesscomms.com.au/Reference/USB.htm (look under "Receptacles")


----------



## Stuart Sweet

HighVoltage said:


> Its a typical USB type B port. You would use a Type A (HR21) to Type B (AM21) cable.
> 
> http://www.accesscomms.com.au/Reference/USB.htm (look under "Receptacles")


Yeah, the sort you'd see on a printer or external hard drive, square with the top two edges beveled.


----------



## hasan

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yeah, the sort you'd see on a printer or external hard drive, square with the top two edges beveled.


Or, in short, a standard USB cable that you would buy at any Wal-Mart, etc., as you noted for any USB printer. They are very common and easily obtainable.


----------



## looter

hasan said:


> Or, in short, a standard USB cable that you would buy at any Wal-Mart, etc., as you noted for any USB printer. They are very common and easily obtainable.


Good to see they didn't go proprietary.


----------



## keep amonte

Well after 13 months of inconsistant freezing, I have a replacement HR? coming. The protection plan csr assured me that if I get a HR21 all I needed to do was call and they would send me the "compatibility adapter" at no cost since I already utilized my OTA on my HR20. I had her repeat those words that she entered into the account. Lets hope for the best!


----------



## Jeremy W

looter said:


> Good to see they didn't go proprietary.


Yes, because that would stop you from hooking the AM21 up to all of the other devices in your house that could utilize it...


----------



## Pink Fairy

keep amonte said:


> Well after 13 months of inconsistant freezing, I have a replacement HR? coming. The protection plan csr assured me that if I get a HR21 all I needed to do was call and they would send me the "compatibility adapter" at no cost since I already utilized my OTA on my HR20. I had her repeat those words that she entered into the account. Lets hope for the best!


Somehow, I would doubt it considering we get locals in HD from DIRECTV. But I hope you get what you were promised.


----------



## DVaccarelli

I have an HR21-700 in my bedroom. I'm thinking about getting an AM21 along with getting a Philips MANT510 indoor antenna for my bedroom only. My twin brother would love to see Nature and Nova in HD again on WXXI HD.


----------



## Maruuk

I tried 3 HR20's for the tuners and they all had major problems. Plus they were all refurbs with the smaller 300GB HD. So I just grabbed a new HR21 off the pile they sent me and said "enough of this, I can suck it up for 2 more months." What's really weird is with D11 kicking in right about the same time as the availability of the AM21, it's gonna be a horse race to the finish as to which way we're gonna get our HD LILs first!


----------



## tkrandall

But you still have the issues of local sub channels, other local non-major network ATSC channels possibly not carried HD by DTV, PBS channels (for now) and thier sub channels, and (even if the HD channel is carried by DTV) rain/storm fade and local OTA signal PQ superiority that all reasonably argue for wanting to have local OTA capability.


----------



## Maruuk

Not to mention the non-compression of the local signal and the fact that it's FREE.


----------



## hasan

Maruuk said:


> Not to mention the non-compression of the local signal and the fact that it's FREE.


The local signal is compressed MPEG-2, it just doesn't suffer the further degradation of bit-starving and other things D* may do to the signal. (unless they multi-cast on the local, then bit-starving can happen locally as well)


----------



## RAgolfer

Maruuk said:


> Not to mention the non-compression of the local signal and the fact that it's FREE.


From What I understand its not OTA thru a D* receiver is not really free. You have to be subscribed to HD access. :eek2:


----------



## hasan

RAgolfer said:


> From What I understand its not OTA thru a D* receiver is not really free. You have to be subscribed to HD access. :eek2:


Which is not much of a deal, considering one leases an HD-DVR in the first place. There is little point in owning an HD-DVR if one isn't going to use it to receive HD programming is there? Or do we expect D* to cut its own throat by promoting OTA in direct competition with its main revenue stream?

It makes perfect sense for D* to require the HD Access fee, no matter if it is going to be accessing the HD from Sat or OTA...otherwise they are subsidizing their own competition, which makes no sense at all.


----------



## Jeremy W

RAgolfer said:


> From What I understand its not OTA thru a D* receiver is not really free. You have to be subscribed to HD access. :eek2:


The receiver simply has to be active on your DirecTV account. It does *not* require a certain package, although any new HD receivers that are activated require you to have HD Access on your account anyway.


----------



## hasan

Jeremy W said:


> The receiver simply has to be active on your DirecTV account. It does *not* require a certain package, although any new HD receivers that are activated require you to have HD Access on your account anyway.


Jeremy, in another thread this issue was being discussed and as strange as it may seem, someone had an HR-DVR but did not have HD Access enabled. This (OTA) used to work for them (as I understand it), and now it doesn't. When they inquired they were told that had to have HD Access for OTA to work. No one knows for sure when this policy actually started to be enforced, primarily because how many people have an HD-DVR and didn't pay for HD Access?

This in turne raised the "OTA is Free" discussion.

anywho...that's where my comment came to the post above.


----------



## Jeremy W

hasan said:


> When they inquired they were told that had to have HD Access for OTA to work.


Whether that is or is not currently the policy, I'm not going to take the word of a single CSR. I have used OTA on the HR20 without HD Access in the past. I'm not saying it couldn't have changed, however.


----------



## NetworkTV

Jeremy W said:


> Yes, because that would stop you from hooking the AM21 up to all of the other devices in your house that could utilize it...


I think it's more the idea that, in a pinch, you can run down to Walmart and get a new one at 9PM should the included cable be defective, too short (if you aren't locating it on top of the HR21) or if you screw it up while installing another component around it. Likewise, if you're really nuts, you can swap it out if the color of the wire jacket color bothers you.

It's just good engineering to allow simple items like cables to be easily (and cheaply) replaced. For example, my pet peeve surrounds computer monitors with molded in video cables or toasters with 12 inch long electrical wires. It means I have to use an extension to get more distance instead of just replacing it with a longer cable.


----------



## Kalanhi

I must be missing he point......Why not just hook up the OTA cable to another input on the TV. Since I have a h20 in the LR I will still get the schedule menu and in the BR where the H21 will be I can hook up to the digital input on the TV. I keep the OTA because of rain outages in Florida which is not affected on the OTA.

If I am wrong, please tell me


----------



## looter

Kalanhi said:


> I must be missing he point......Why not just hook up the OTA cable to another input on the TV. Since I have a h20 in the LR I will still get the schedule menu and in the BR where the H21 will be I can hook up to the digital input on the TV. I keep the OTA because of rain outages in Florida which is not affected on the OTA.
> 
> If I am wrong, please tell me


That doesn't give you a DVR. The HR21 is a DVR.


----------



## hasan

Kalanhi said:


> I must be missing he point......Why not just hook up the OTA cable to another input on the TV. Since I have a h20 in the LR I will still get the schedule menu and in the BR where the H21 will be I can hook up to the digital input on the TV. I keep the OTA because of rain outages in Florida which is not affected on the OTA.
> 
> If I am wrong, please tell me


People want to *record* their favorite shows, and may not be there to watch them live. Hence, OTA-HD recording on the HR series is a big plus for a significant minority (including me). All of the other advantages of OTA have been discussed to death, so I won't repeat them here. I try to avoid that discussion as much as possible. If you don't know what they are, you can review various threads and make up your own mind.


----------



## Jeremy W

NetworkTV said:


> my pet peeve surrounds computer monitors with molded in video cables


You must be glad we're out of the CRT era!


----------



## Montezuma58

Kalanhi said:


> I must be missing he point......Why not just hook up the OTA cable to another input on the TV. Since I have a h20 in the LR I will still get the schedule menu and in the BR where the H21 will be I can hook up to the digital input on the TV. I keep the OTA because of rain outages in Florida which is not affected on the OTA.
> 
> If I am wrong, please tell me


Not all sets have an OTA tuner. I have an older set that doesn't have one. And my projector doesn't have one.

I have an older direcTV box that I can use to watch (but not record) OTA with my projector but it's a pain in the rear because I have to switch inputs around to do so. I'm eagerly awaiting the AM21 because it will make my set up much easier to work with.


----------



## fantinocsny

the stupid thing should have been included in the receiver just like with everyother receiver


----------



## Jeremy W

fantinocsny said:


> the stupid thing should have been included in the receiver just like with everyother receiver


So that the vast majority of people who will never use it can pay for it? That's a great idea. :sure:


----------



## akron05

Sounds like a way to make more money rather than having OTA built-in to the HR21 to me.


----------



## akron05

Earl Bonovich said:


> 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% chance that it will work identical to the way it is on the HR20...
> 
> Why? Same top level software.
> But since I haven't asked, or confirmed, or haven't tried it myself...... I leave that tiny sliver of possibility


Wait...are you guys saying that I cannot get "out of DMA" stations through this?


----------



## carl6

akron05 said:


> Wait...are you guys saying that I cannot get "out of DMA" stations through this?


If the AM21/HR21 combination works like the HR20, you will have the ability to enter two zip codes for two markets. It won't scan for available channels.

Whether or not lets you get "out of DMA" stations would depend on your physical location and what markets you are capable of receiving OTA.

Carl


----------



## akron05

DBEX said:


> This thing should be free! I feel sorry for HR21 users...


The hard part for me if I end up with an HR21 is convincing my wife that getting the OTA is worth the extra cost for 2 TV's. She's satisfied with a lot less than I am as far as HD locals.


----------



## akron05

carl6 said:


> If the AM21/HR21 combination works like the HR20, you will have the ability to enter two zip codes for two markets. It won't scan for available channels.
> 
> Whether or not lets you get "out of DMA" stations would depend on your physical location and what markets you are capable of receiving OTA.
> 
> Carl


DC and Baltimore, but technically in Baltimore DMA.


----------



## akron05

Kalanhi said:


> I must be missing he point......Why not just hook up the OTA cable to another input on the TV. Since I have a h20 in the LR I will still get the schedule menu and in the BR where the H21 will be I can hook up to the digital input on the TV. I keep the OTA because of rain outages in Florida which is not affected on the OTA.
> 
> If I am wrong, please tell me


1. No DVR
2. Pain in the butt to switch and harder for my non-videophile wife to operate
3. It's much better to have all channels in one place.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

akron05 said:


> Sounds like a way to make more money rather than having OTA built-in to the HR21 to me.


Oh... they are making a killing at selling the unit at $59

[/sarcasim]

Instead of dropping the price of the HR2* to $199.... the should have kept it at $299 and had the ATSC left in there.
Instead of making it an optional add on for $40 less.


----------



## akron05

Earl Bonovich said:


> Oh... they are making a killing at selling the unit at $59
> 
> [/sarcasim]
> 
> Instead of dropping the price of the HR2* to $199.... the should have kept it at $299 and had the ATSC left in there.
> Instead of making it an optional add on for $40 less.


I understand the reasoning there - but from what I see - there is no OTA addon for the non-DVR HD boxes now. I have 4 TV's and don't need a DVR on all but I would like OTA.


----------



## houskamp

akron05 said:


> I understand the reasoning there - but from what I see - there is no OTA addon for the non-DVR HD boxes now. I have 4 TV's and don't need a DVR on all but I would like OTA.


You soon will want dvrs on them all.. (voice of experience) :lol:


----------



## mhayes70

houskamp said:


> You soon will want dvrs on them all.. (voice of experience) :lol:


That is very true.


----------



## akron05

carl6 said:


> If the AM21/HR21 combination works like the HR20, you will have the ability to enter two zip codes for two markets. It won't scan for available channels.
> 
> Whether or not lets you get "out of DMA" stations would depend on your physical location and what markets you are capable of receiving OTA.
> 
> Carl


OK - when you enter zip codes, does it ONLY find the channels that are available through satellite in that particular market? In other words, if there is an OTA station that broadcasts in digital but isn't available through that DMA's D* locals package, can I see that channel?


----------



## houskamp

akron05 said:


> OK - when you enter zip codes, does it ONLY find the channels that are available through satellite in that particular market? In other words, if there is an OTA station that broadcasts in digital but isn't available through that DMA's D* locals package, can I see that channel?


yes..


----------



## akron05

houskamp said:


> yes..


Yes I can see locals in a zip code not available in that DMA's D* locals package?


----------



## Jeremy W

akron05 said:


> Yes I can see locals in a zip code not available in that DMA's D* locals package?


YES. That is the whole point.


----------



## hasan

Jeremy W said:


> So that the vast majority of people who will never use it can pay for it? That's a great idea. :sure:


That is a perfectly valid point. Once they discovered they could support (hardware) that gave customers a choice of OTA/non-OTA, it made perfectly good sense to "break it out". It saves money and unnecessary support all the way around, while still giving a significant minority what they want/need.

Nothing to complain about here.


----------



## akron05

hasan said:


> That is a perfectly valid point. Once they discovered they could support (hardware) that gave customers a choice of OTA/non-OTA, it made perfectly good sense to "break it out". It saves money and unnecessary support all the way around, while still giving a significant minority what they want/need.
> 
> Nothing to complain about here.


Except that it doesn't work for the non DVR HD boxes...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

akron05 said:


> Except that it doesn't work for the non DVR HD boxes...


But other then having it all in 1 box... what do you gain by having it in there?

You have all TV's sold for nearly the last 12 months, come with a built in ATSC tuner.

You have other options out there for ATSC tuners (some that are better then the ones in the DirecTV receivers)

And honestly... DirecTV wants customers to have their DVR systems, as that is where most of the new features are going to be (Like DoD, Remote Booking, Media Share, ect).

As for the H21... it is expected in time to get the AM21 add-on compatibility as well... but it is not going to be any time soon.


----------



## DVaccarelli

My mom called DirecTV this morning and the guy said that the AM21 is supposed to be available in March.


----------



## danman71

I have been looking to replace my R15 with another HR20 (I have one HR20). However, since all I could find was HR21's I postponded doing it, since I cannot (yet) get HD via satellite. This will at least make it possible for me to record HD locals. However, I would much prefer they added them to the DirecTV lineup in the first place. Anyone know which markets they are adding after D11 launches?


----------



## rbean

ATSC tuner?, want them, need them, no LIL DMA is high number, 189 I think, I use Pany plasma monitors, 50 in. and 42 in, they have no tuners or speakers. So I need my HR20 tuners, even though I think there are not what they should be. I actually bought monitors because of the availability of the tuners in the HR10-250 so if the HR20 hadn't had tuners quess who would have screwed.


----------



## LameLefty

DVaccarelli said:


> My mom called DirecTV this morning and the guy said that the AM21 is supposed to be available in March.


Don't believe much of what you hear from CSR's concerning dates and plans for future services. It might be right but it could very easily be utterly wrong.


----------



## akron05

Earl Bonovich said:


> But other then having it all in 1 box... what do you gain by having it in there?
> 
> You have all TV's sold for nearly the last 12 months, come with a built in ATSC tuner.
> 
> You have other options out there for ATSC tuners (some that are better then the ones in the DirecTV receivers)
> 
> And honestly... DirecTV wants customers to have their DVR systems, as that is where most of the new features are going to be (Like DoD, Remote Booking, Media Share, ect).
> 
> As for the H21... it is expected in time to get the AM21 add-on compatibility as well... but it is not going to be any time soon.


That's exactly what we gain. The added pain-in-the-ass of having to switch from the box to the TV's tuner is cumbersome and annoying. I don't see a need for a DVR on every television in the house - and here's the thing. We are in Baltimore DMA, but my wife works in DC and wants DC stations, mostly to be able to watch DC area newscasts which is indirectly part of her job. We don't want to have to flip back and forth off the D* box to get these channels - we prefer it to be integrated.


----------



## CJTE

LameLefty said:


> DVaccarelli said:
> 
> 
> 
> My mom called DirecTV this morning and the guy said that the AM21 is supposed to be available in March.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't believe much of what you hear from CSR's concerning dates and plans for future services. It might be right but it could very easily be utterly wrong.
Click to expand...

The general availabilty of the AM21 is proposed to be late march. Similar to the HD channels coming out in August, then in September...


----------



## johnp37

rbean said:


> ATSC tuner?, want them, need them, no LIL DMA is high number, 189 I think, I use Pany plasma monitors, 50 in. and 42 in, they have no tuners or speakers. So I need my HR20 tuners, even though I think there are not what they should be. I actually bought monitors because of the availability of the tuners in the HR10-250 so if the HR20 hadn't had tuners quess who would have screwed.


 Want them, need them. I hear you brother, that's why I'm trying to snap up additional HR20s and H20s wherever I can. How is D*tv going to know, send out the "you buy it you have to activate it within 30 days" police to search subscriber's homes? I'm paying my own hard earned out of pocket money for receivers for D*tv to claim as it's own? Stinks to high heaven. Sorry, I really needed to vent.


----------



## DVaccarelli

I moved the H21-200 from the living room to the computer room and put the H20-600 in the living room and we'll buy the Philips MANT510 antenna and put it in the living room until March then put it in my bedroom when the AM21 comes.


----------



## Luke_Y

rbean said:


> ATSC tuner?, want them, need them, no LIL DMA is high number, 189 I think, I use Pany plasma monitors, 50 in. and 42 in, they have no tuners or speakers. So I need my HR20 tuners, even though I think there are not what they should be. I actually bought monitors because of the availability of the tuners in the HR10-250 so if the HR20 hadn't had tuners quess who would have screwed.


Same boat here but worse. I have the HR10-250 and can't upgrade to the new equipment to get the new HD channels without loosing my HD locals, because I can't lay my hands on an HR20.

Waiting somewhat impatiently for the AM21....


----------



## MurrayW

I don't have an HR21 (yet) but does it have a 2nd USB port on the front? Are both USB ports active? Could you plug the AM21 into either one of them?

The reason I ask is because I am currently using a usb port on my HR20 for serial control of my HR20 rather than using IR or RF remote and I would like to do the same when I am forced to get an HR21 rather than HR20...so basically if the AM21 is going to use one USB port, I need the other one to be active. Are they both active?

thanks,
Murray


----------



## spaldingclan

the HR21 has a front USB port (behind a little door on the left)


----------



## Jeremy W

MurrayW said:


> Are they both active?


Yep. You could even add a USB hub to the back port so that you wouldn't have to have a cable coming out of the front all the time.


----------



## frederic1943

Luke_Y said:


> Same boat here but worse. I have the HR10-250 and can't upgrade to the new equipment to get the new HD channels without loosing my HD locals, because I can't lay my hands on an HR20.
> Waiting somewhat impatiently for the AM21....


Get an HR21 now and keep your HR10-250 hooked up to the same TV. It's just $4.99 more a month. Then you can record satellite HD on the HR21 and OTA HD on the HR10.


----------



## MurrayW

Jeremy W said:


> Yep. You could even add a USB hub to the back port so that you wouldn't have to have a cable coming out of the front all the time.


Great! That is even better. I was afraid that there would be too much traffic with the ATSC stream for the USB port to be shared.

Thanks for the information and good news.

Murray


----------



## Dhouse900

Does the input have to be an off-air antenna? I have my cable tv plugged into my tuner right now so I can get my locals in HD. (I have to have basic cable so I don't pay out my butt for internet) So will I be able to plug that into the AM21 or does it have to be an antenna?

Thanks


----------



## Jeremy W

Dhouse900 said:


> Does the input have to be an off-air antenna?


Yes. The AM21 is an ATSC tuner only. HD channels on cable are transmitted using QAM.


----------



## toy4two

Will this work on the HR20?

I still can't recieve all the OTA stations here in San Diego that are being broadcast in Mexico like I can with my old boxes, the HR20 seems limited to zip codes. Is this add on crippled in the same way, or can you actually pickup all the free HD OTA like other recievers out there?


----------



## waynebtx

toy4two said:


> Will this work on the HR20?
> 
> I still can't recieve all the OTA stations here in San Diego that are being broadcast in Mexico like I can with my old boxes, the HR20 seems limited to zip codes. Is this add on crippled in the same way, or can you actually pickup all the free HD OTA like other recievers out there?


From everthing i have read on the forms here it will only work with the HR21 and will be setup like the HR20 with the zipcode for your OTA. Do a scearch on the am21 in the forms to read more.


----------



## houskamp

toy4two said:


> Will this work on the HR20?
> 
> I still can't recieve all the OTA stations here in San Diego that are being broadcast in Mexico like I can with my old boxes, the HR20 seems limited to zip codes. Is this add on crippled in the same way, or can you actually pickup all the free HD OTA like other recievers out there?


I think what you are asking is "will it scan for channels?" and the answer will be no.. it is expected to work the same as the HR20 internal tuners..
There have been posts where people have "lied" to the HR.. gave it a zipcode that has staions on the same freqency so it will tune them.. But my guess is even if/when you find a frequency that will tune those "over the border" stations you won't have any guide data for them (will be inccorect info).. you could do manual records to record a show if you knew the time/channel tho..
as Directv doesn't sell service "over the border" I doubt you will ever be able to get guide data on any of the HR recievers..


----------



## blownaway

I've have a Sony SAT HD-200 direct tv HD reciver that is hooked up to an antenna on my roof for my local HD OTA channels. It works wonderfully. I've been getting free OTA HD channels for years.

Will the HR21/AM1 combo give me as good or better OTA picture quality as what I have now?

I know it's really a guess at this point but is the OTA tuners used in the DTV recivers very good? Has DTV had a good track record when it comes to OTA tuners?

The reason I ask is back in the day (at least 5/6 years ago) the thought was that Sony box had a much better OTA tuner than DTV.

I would like to upgrade (ie HR21/AM21) so I get all the new HD channels that I'm missing out on currently, thanks


----------



## Tom Robertson

I expect that tuners have improved in the last 5 years, tho that might be a false hope on my part.

I've been satisfied with the HR20-700 and HR10-250 tuners, I'm expecting I'll be happy with the AM21 too.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## blownaway

Tom Robertson said:


> I expect that tuners have improved in the last 5 years, tho that might be a false hope on my part.
> 
> I've been satisfied with the HR20-700 and HR10-250 tuners, I'm expecting I'll be happy with the AM21 too.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Tom, I think I'll hold on to my Sony box just in case...

Why do folks like the OTA option?

Its it because it saves you $ (in my case it's $4 per month).

Is the picture quality much better with a strong OTA signal because it's transmitting from a closer source, no compression (this is what I've been told years back)?


----------



## houskamp

blownaway said:


> Thanks Tom, I think I'll hold on to my Sony box just in case...
> 
> Why do folks like the OTA option?
> 
> Its it because it saves you $ (in my case it's $4 per month).
> 
> Is the picture quality much better with a strong OTA signal because it's transmitting from a closer source, no compression (this is what I've been told years back)?


In my (and a lot of others) case, It's because we can't get some/all locals from Directv... Namely NBC here..


----------



## tfederov

blownaway said:


> Thanks Tom, I think I'll hold on to my Sony box just in case...
> 
> Why do folks like the OTA option?
> 
> Its it because it saves you $ (in my case it's $4 per month).
> 
> Is the picture quality much better with a strong OTA signal because it's transmitting from a closer source, no compression (this is what I've been told years back)?


I like it as a backup of my locals when the weather gets real bad. I also like having access to the sub-channels and PBS in HD (although that's going to be addressed real soon too).


----------



## Tom Robertson

The only difference between good OTA and marginal OTA signals is you will see more blocks and lines of garbage on the screen on a very marginal signal. A medium strength to strong signal will look the same--breathtaking. 

OTA used to be better than any other source as it was the original source. All forms of HD sent to the home are compressed, OTA the least.

Not all forms of compression are "bad", there are several reports of people getting as good as OTA via DIRECTV's re-compressing the signal. Tho I do understand saving money. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## blownaway

Tom Robertson said:


> The only difference between good OTA and marginal OTA signals is you will see more blocks and lines of garbage on the screen on a very marginal signal. A medium strength to strong signal will look the same--breathtaking.
> 
> OTA used to be better than any other source as it was the original source. All forms of HD sent to the home are compressed, OTA the least.
> 
> Not all forms of compression are "bad", there are several reports of people getting as good as OTA via DIRECTV's re-compressing the signal. Tho I do understand saving money.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I think the smart thing for me to do is order the locals right now (for a few days) and see what they look like and how many I get. Then I can make a comparison my OTA locals.


----------



## blownaway

I just spoke to DTV and found out the AM21 will be avalible on February 27th!  

The HDPC-20 not until "late 2008".

I also tried the DTV locals and since I don't have one of the new MPEG 4 recivers I will not be able to get HD locals through DTV. So much for the comparison.


----------



## Jeremy W

blownaway said:


> I just spoke to DTV and found out the AM21 will be avalible on February 27th!


When I called, they told me it would be February 30th. So who knows.


----------



## Pink Fairy

I have heard February 27th as well when I called about getting an HD DVR.


----------



## GP245

Jeremy W said:


> When I called, they told me it would be February 30th. So who knows.


February 30th! What a frightening thing to have heard.

I know this is a leap year, but that's ridiculous!!!!!


----------



## MIAMI1683

Jeremy W said:


> When I called, they told me it would be February 30th. So who knows.


Now thaty's funny. You could be a csr too!:lol:


----------



## MurrayW

When I called in requesting an HR20, they told me the AM21 would be out in March and then said that the HR21/AM21 combo would be better than an HR20 because I could record 4 channels at a once (2 OTA and 2 SAT) since the OTA tuners are in a separate box! :lol: :sure:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I am presuming by your smily faced, you know that the 4 channel at once is inccorrect.


----------



## kalrith

houskamp said:


> In my (and a lot of others) case, It's because we can't get some/all locals from Directv... Namely NBC here..


I can get all of my locals in SD through DirecTV, but no HD locals. It stinks having to watch it live right now instead of being able to record it. I'm really looking forward to the AM21.


----------



## sooner_ou

I live in a town that does not have local channels (therefore I cannot get any locals thru D*), but I can pick up OTA HD channels from 4 different surrounding markets. Why will D* not allow you to scan for channels?!!! What is the logic here? Couldn't wait for this thing to come out but now I may not upgrade because I will be losing 15 to 20 channels. Can someone explain this?


----------



## RAD

sooner_ou said:


> I live in a town that does not have local channels (therefore I cannot get any locals thru D*), but I can pick up OTA HD channels from 4 different surrounding markets. Why will D* not allow you to scan for channels?!!! What is the logic here? Couldn't wait for this thing to come out but now I may not upgrade because I will be losing 15 to 20 channels. Can someone explain this?


Don't know, but you can put in a zip code for your 'primary' channels and another for your secondary so you might be able to get at least two of those markets and if you can find a zip code that will cover multiple markets who knows, you might get all of them.


----------



## houskamp

sooner_ou said:


> I live in a town that does not have local channels (therefore I cannot get any locals thru D*), but I can pick up OTA HD channels from 4 different surrounding markets. Why will D* not allow you to scan for channels?!!! What is the logic here? Couldn't wait for this thing to come out but now I may not upgrade because I will be losing 15 to 20 channels. Can someone explain this?


No it can't scan for channels..
But you can put in 2 zipcodes for OTA channels.. and neither of these zipcodes has to be your "home" zip..


----------



## sooner_ou

Well, I guess that's better than nothing...Still not happy about it. Why do they take this option away from you though? What do they gain by this? I hope at least they are following FCC guidelines or something similar and it's not just something they decided to do on their own....


----------



## Jeremy W

sooner_ou said:


> I hope at least they are following FCC guidelines or something similar and it's not just something they decided to do on their own....


My guess is that it's a hardware issue. They probably have had trouble getting a scan to work properly on this hardware, and so they just disabled it. It's the only scenario I can think of that makes sense. There are no FCC guidelines, and it doesn't make any sense for DirecTV to just arbitrarily decide not to include the feature.


----------



## waynebtx

Jeremy W said:


> My guess is that it's a hardware issue. They probably have had trouble getting a scan to work properly on this hardware, and so they just disabled it. It's the only scenario I can think of that makes sense. There are no FCC guidelines, and it doesn't make any sense for DirecTV to just arbitrarily decide not to include the feature.


Pluse maybe a guide issue not all the subchanels were being but in the guide data stream.


----------



## Jeremy W

waynebtx said:


> Pluse maybe a guide issue not all the subchanels were not being but in the guide data stream.


The H2x receives the same guide data as the HR2x, so that can't be the problem.


----------



## jefbal99

Jeremy W said:


> The H2x receives the same guide data as the HR2x, so that can't be the problem.


My H20-600 doesn't get any guide data for the OTA locals it scans for, always just says "Regular Programming" or something like that.


----------



## waynebtx

jefbal99 said:


> My H20-600 doesn't get any guide data for the OTA locals it scans for, always just says "Regular Programming" or something like that.


Thats the problem i was refering to.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

It appears that the ultimate goal is to have the AM21 support OTA to as many customers as possible that cannot get their LIL service in any other way. This means any corresponding receiver and DVR units will have to have the proper firmware to use the new device -- *NOTE THE LAST PARAGRAPH.*

*This is from SKYREPORT:*
DIRECTV Outlines Future Local TV Plans

DIRECTV has made attempts to alleviate concerns about its offering of local TV channels to unserved customers, outlining in a filing sent to the Federal Communications Commission Wednesday its two-part local TV delivery strategy.

State-level broadcast groups have been pressuring regulators about DIRECTV's lack of local TV coverage in smaller markets, using the FCC's review of DIRECTV's pending takeover by Liberty Media to state their complaints. Specifically, broadcasters have blasted the DBS company for not offering local TV channels in small markets located in Kansas, Indiana, Texas and North Dakota.

Part of DIRECTV's local TV efforts will still rely on satellite delivery of broadcast signals to a current slate of 144 market areas that represent more than 94 percent of U.S. TV households. In its FCC filing, DIRECTV said it expects to reach 150 DMAs with local signals via satellite within the next few months.

The second part of DIRECTV's local TV push would put systems into a customer's house that are capable of directly receiving off-air digital broadcast signals.

Whether the off-air tuner is built-in or is separate from the set-top box, the TV viewing experience will remain the same, DIRECTV told the FCC. Customers will get a "seamless integrated experience" with the off-air tuner solution, the company said, including the appearance of local channels in an on-screen programming guide with information such as show title and parental control features.

"The consumer has complete control over the program selection just like any other DIRECTV channel, and in the case of a DVR box they can record and playback just like any other channel," the company said in its filing.

*DIRECTV said it has made provisions for its H2X and HR2X set-top boxes to have capabilities to receive digital broadcast signals. Also, the company said it has started production of the terrestrial digital broadcast unit, and expects to have enough inventory on hand to make them available to subscribers beginning in March, with a further rollout to all other impacted markets by fall*.


----------



## chdoud

Jeremy W said:


> My guess is that it's a hardware issue. They probably have had trouble getting a scan to work properly on this hardware, and so they just disabled it. It's the only scenario I can think of that makes sense. There are no FCC guidelines, and it doesn't make any sense for DirecTV to just arbitrarily decide not to include the feature.


I really don't care for scanning. I have a TV with scanning but since I live in a area where I must have a rotor to change antenna direction and then have to rescan to get the channels. It is a low end HD set where I can not add channels.....

I have not upgraded to HD yet so I don't have any real experience with the HR20 but if I was stuck with scanning as I described above I would be in trouble.


----------



## RAD

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *DIRECTV said it has made provisions for its H2X and HR2X set-top boxes to have capabilities to receive digital broadcast signals. Also, the company said it has started production of the terrestrial digital broadcast unit, and expects to have enough inventory on hand to make them available to subscribers beginning in March, with a further rollout to all other impacted markets by fall*


I wonder if that means that the AM21 will be rationed, like the SWM8's?


----------



## Tom Robertson

RAD said:


> I wonder if that means that the AM21 will be rationed, like the SWM8's?


I don't get the sense these will be rationed, at least quite in the same way. If I recall correctly, Pace is making the AM21s and should have production capacity to make plenty.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdflstn

I recently switched back to D* from cable and got stuck with the HR21. I have an old Sony HD300 receiver. Could it be used to receive HD OTA signals without reconnecting it to the SAT and reactivating it with D*?


----------



## DBSNewbie

hdflstn said:


> I recently switched back to D* from cable and got stuck with the HR21. I have an old Sony HD300 receiver. Could it be used to receive HD OTA signals without reconnecting it to the SAT and reactivating it with D*?


Yes, the Sony SAT-HD300 can be used as a stand-alone HD OTA Receiver. D* activation is not necessary.


----------



## blownaway

DBSNewbie said:


> Yes, the Sony SAT-HD300 can be used as a stand-alone HD OTA Receiver. D* activation is not necessary.


Really?

Just plug it in?

Could you use it with the HR21?

How would you find the OTA locals in the DTV menus?

Would you have to put the locals on a differnt input on your TV (mine an Pioneer Elite).

If you did hook it up I assume the HR21 wouldn't be able to record OTA, right?


----------



## Jeremy W

blownaway said:


> Could you use it with the HR21?


No. The HR21 must be paired up with the AM21 in order to receive ATSC locals.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RAD said:


> I wonder if that means that the AM21 will be rationed, like the SWM8's?





Tom Robertson said:


> I don't get the sense these will be rationed, at least quite in the same way. If I recall correctly, Pace is making the AM21s and should have production capacity to make plenty.


I think Tom's right on the money - there will be a rollout just like any other hardware. Pace has multiple plants to make them....


----------



## smiddy

I want one now!


----------



## mhayes70

smiddy said:


> I want one now!


You just have to wait about 1 more month. But, it still is not soon enough is it?


----------



## carl6

FHSPSU67 said:


> The HR21 is simply replacing the internal HR20 OTA capabilities.
> I'm sure that someone will correct or modify anything I've stated here.


I think you meant to say the AM21. The HR21 is replacing the HR20 as a DVR. The AM21 is providing the OTA tuners for the HR21 that are internal on the HR20.

Carl


----------



## FHSPSU67

carl6 said:


> I think you meant to say the AM21. The HR21 is replacing the HR20 as a DVR. The AM21 is providing the OTA tuners for the HR21 that are internal on the HR20.
> 
> Carl


Yes, Carl. Thanks!
I also deleted my post because I just realized that BlownAway was referring to the SAT-HD300 and not the AM21.:blush:


----------



## jefbal99

Has there been any more discussion about the AM21 working with the H21 series of receivers?

Tom or Stuart mentioned at CES that a software upgrade would be needed for the H21, I was out of the country and dealing with family issues for two weeks and haven't been able to track back through this thread.

I have to guess that this will first be in some CE software rollouts, before NR.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I've not received any updates about the H21 using the AM21. I have seen more confirmations that it will at some point.

My guess, purely based on how things have progressed in the past, is that DIRECTV will test and prove the technology on the HR21 then wrap that knowledge up into a new CE cycle for the H21s.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## firestonedtv

What is the easiest way to distribute OTA signal now that you can't use diplexor? I have 3 HR10-250's I will eventually replace and would hate to have to run new cable.


----------



## JeffBowser

I ended up running new cables. Others have had luck with moving the BBC's upstream of the OTA diplexer. The hard to get SWM is another option. Probably easiest is to simply try and see if moving the BBC's works for you.



firestonedtv said:


> What is the easiest way to distribute OTA signal now that you can't use diplexor? I have 3 HR10-250's I will eventually replace and would hate to have to run new cable.


----------



## DBSNewbie

blownaway said:


> Really?
> 
> Just plug it in?
> 
> Could you use it with the HR21?
> 
> How would you find the OTA locals in the DTV menus?
> 
> Would you have to put the locals on a differnt input on your TV (mine an Pioneer Elite).
> 
> If you did hook it up I assume the HR21 wouldn't be able to record OTA, right?


The Sony cannot be used in conjunction with the HR21, so no, you will not be able to record HD OTA with the HR21.

It can only be used as a Stand-Alone unit, meaning that you would have to put it on a separate input on your TV. But, if you already have an ATSC tuner on the TV, then it is not necessary, unless you prefer the GUI of the Sony instead.


----------



## Tom Robertson

firestonedtv said:


> What is the easiest way to distribute OTA signal now that you can't use diplexor? I have 3 HR10-250's I will eventually replace and would hate to have to run new cable.


Welcome to the forums, firestonedtv! :welcome_s

For the 3 HR10-250s you can still diplex without any trouble at all. And you potentially can run diplexed to a other receivers by moving the BBCs before the diplexers (if indoors.)

That said, I suggest, where possible, run new cable or get SWM.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## firestonedtv

Tom Robertson said:


> Welcome to the forums, firestonedtv! :welcome_s
> 
> For the 3 HR10-250s you can still diplex without any trouble at all. And you potentially can run diplexed to a other receivers by moving the BBCs before the diplexers (if indoors.)
> 
> That said, I suggest, where possible, run new cable or get SWM.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom,

I am currently using an eagle aspen 5x8 multiswitch. I was told with the new dish I will no longer be able to use this. The multiswitch that came with the new dish does not have an OTA input. Am I back to running new wire?

Thanks!


----------



## bobnielsen

If you place the BBCs at some point near the dish or multiswitch and a diplexer after the BBCs (with another at the receivers), you can diplex in the OTA signal. It might not work for very long runs, however. The BBC should be protected from the weather.

Alternately the SWM8 has a port for diplexing OTA into the cabling (it is not readily available yet and is not supported by the HR10-250 however).


----------



## Tom Robertson

Bob speaks well. 

One other approach, albeit perhaps short-term, is to cascade the 5x8 off the new switch to feed the 3 HR10-250s with a diplexed signal.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MurrayW

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am presuming by your smily faced, you know that the 4 channel at once is inccorrect.


Yes I do know that...I just found it amusing. If that really were true, I am sure it would be a very NICE reason to opt for the HR21 vs the HR20. BTW, they did ship me a HR20 as I asked...so I was very pleased with the help I got.


----------



## chunkysoup

I think I'm the only one that doesn't care if the HR21 doesn't have built in OTA capabilities. I'm scheduled to get it installed Wednesday. and when the AM21 comes out I will be buying that too. :hurah:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Welcome to the forums, chunkysoup! :welcome_s

You aren't the only one, tho one of the relatively few to have shared. Thanks!
Tom


----------



## Nuance

chunkysoup said:


> I think I'm the only one that doesn't care if the HR21 doesn't have built in OTA capabilities. I'm scheduled to get it installed Wednesday. and when the AM21 comes out I will be buying that too. :hurah:


You do know that you won't be getting CBS in HD, right? Even if you use an OTA antenna, you won't be able to record CBS shows in HD to your HR21.

I also live in Milwaukee (well...Grafton) and think it sucks that the HR21 doesn't have the built in tuners.

Oh...I hope your install doesn't get cancelled due to this horrific weather; suppose to get 12-16 inches in Milwaukee tonight. I had mine installed in December and had to have it re-scheduled due to snow.

I think the OTA add-in should be free.

P.S. Yes, I am the same Nuance from AVS. I thought you were pissed about the HR21 not having OTA capabilities!?


----------



## Jeremy W

Nuance said:


> I think the OTA add-in should be free.


That would mean that the vast majority of people who don't care about OTA at all would have to subsidize it for the few who do. The HR21 is $100 cheaper than the HR20, and the OTA add-on is $60, so you come out ahead anyway.


----------



## MurrayW

Jeremy W said:


> That would mean that the vast majority of people who don't care about OTA at all would have to subsidize it for the few who do. The HR21 is $100 cheaper than the HR20, and the OTA add-on is $60, so you come out ahead anyway.


So Jeremy, are you trying to imply that DirecTV is able to produce the HR21 for $100 less than the HR20 solely due to taking out the OTA tuners? I understand that it makes good business sense not to spend whatever it costs to put the OTA tuners in a box for those that don't use them (is it really $100?), but for those that do need/want them, it would be nice to have them included free like we used to get for the HR10-250 and HR20...or if not free, at least for the cost D* saves by not including the OTA tuner in the HR21 (assuming that is less than $100).


----------



## Tom Robertson

While I do not know the exact cost, there is some savings by not including OTA.

There are also many savings for having competitive building, mass ordering, and component costs are dropping. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

MurrayW said:


> So Jeremy, are you trying to imply that DirecTV is able to produce the HR21 for $100 less than the HR20 solely due to taking out the OTA tuners?


Absolutely not.


MurrayW said:


> it would be nice to have them included free


Sure it would. But business isn't always about doing things that "would be nice" but things that make good business sense. It would be nice if HD didn't cost anything more than SD, but that's just not the way the business works today.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Lets put it this way, they are available at a price far less than you can typically find a dongle for a single tuner, much less two. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hasan

+1, very fair pricing. Bring it on!


----------



## WOLF18

Tom Robertson said:


> The current pricing information we have from Robert at Valueelectonics is that the MSRP will be $59.
> 
> The AM21 is expected to be GA at the end of February.
> 
> And it will work on the H21, tho not immediately. A new software release cycle will be needed for the H21 family.
> 
> I don't know about the HR20 yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


the warehouses for direct tv. (all markets) will be getting the am tunners this week they are calling them modulators


----------



## Earl Bonovich

WOLF18 said:


> the warehouses for direct tv. (all markets) will be getting the am tunners this week they are calling them modulators


Where are you getting that information?

As I have very solid information to believe that is incorrect.


----------



## WOLF18

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where are you getting that information?
> 
> As I have very solid information to believe that is incorrect.


from my plant manager at direct tv louisiana market


----------



## Earl Bonovich

WOLF18 said:


> from my plant manager at direct tv louisiana market


I would be VERY VERY VERY shocked if the warehouses start to receive them next week.


----------



## Jeremy W

WOLF18 said:


> they are calling them modulators


The AM21 doesn't modulate anything, so calling it a modulator would be stupid.


----------



## hasan

Jeremy W said:


> The AM21 doesn't modulate anything, so calling it a modulator would be stupid.


It actually "demodulates", i.e., removes information from the signal, so you're right, they have it backwards, at best. (at least in it's primary function). One could make some arcane assertions about how the info comes out of the box itself (the data stream), but that is really splitting hairs as well as being contrary to every conventional use of the terms "modulate" or "demodulate".


----------



## Carl Spock

Earl Bonovich said:


> I would be VERY VERY VERY shocked if the warehouses start to receive them next week.


The ship carrying them hasn't docked in Los Angeles (or Seattle) yet, huh, Earl?


----------



## SC Flyboy

So DirecTV gets out too far ahead of the curve and leaves out functionality for an off-air antenna on the HR-21. I know...they thought by now everyone would be getting local HD through the satellite. But as I said, they were too far ahead of the curve. So now they are going to charge us an additional $59 to have the functionality that should have been in the HR-21 to begin with. What a crock!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

SC Flyboy said:


> So DirecTV gets out too far ahead of the curve and leaves out functionality for an off-air antenna on the HR-21. I know...they thought by now everyone would be getting local HD through the satellite. But as I said, they were too far ahead of the curve. So now they are going to charge us an additional $59 to have the functionality that should have been in the HR-21 to begin with. What a crock!


No, not really.

The AM21 has been in the plans for a while.

The HR21 was released for the market place for their customers that don't need OTA, or don't want to deal with the other aspects of OTA (aka the antenna).

A large population of their customer base, gets their HD Locals via SAT... the Big 4 where MOST of the content is from.

They designed this modular structure so that want to have OTA, can still get it... while those that don't need/want it... the incremental cost to include that equipment is not incurred by DirecTV and ultimate the customer.

There will never be a day where "everyone" get's their locals via SAT, let alone their HD Locals via SAT...

So yes... those that want OTA... which requires additional costing hardware, are going to have to incur that cost.


----------



## 21hawk

May be FTM?


----------



## Jeremy W

21hawk said:


> May be FTM?


What?


----------



## 21hawk

Jeremy W said:


> What?


The modulators he was referring to, wasn't the M in FTM for modulator? Just a thought, maybe his source confused SWM for AM21?


----------



## Jeremy W

21hawk said:


> The modulators he was referring to, wasn't the M in FTM for modulator? Just a thought, maybe his source confused SWM for AM21?


The M in FTM stood for module, and the M in SWM stands for multiswitch.


----------



## Doug Brott

WOLF18 said:


> they are calling them modulators





Jeremy W said:


> The AM21 doesn't modulate anything, so calling it a modulator would be stupid.


I suspect there is some confusion .. Either it's something else or the "Antenna Module 21" is mistakenly being called an "Antenna Modulator 21."

In any event, Earl's already noted that the AM21 is not supposed to be out in warehouses next week. Please let us know if you find out that they actually arrive.


----------



## techdimwit

> The HR21 was released for the market place for their customers that don't need OTA,


That's great and I accept it. However, in a market like mine that does not have local HD channels and will not get them in the foreseeable future (per D*), they should have made an HR20 available to me for my second DVR instead of just saying, "Too bad, we don't have any so you're getting an HR21." I'll dutifully buy the AM21 when it becomes available but I'm still a little resentful that there was simply no choice given me in the matter.


----------



## Doug Brott

techdimwit said:


> That's great and I accept it. However, in a market like mine that does not have local HD channels and will not get them in the foreseeable future (per D*), they should have made an HR20 available to me for my second DVR instead of just saying, "Too bad, we don't have any so you're getting an HR21." I'll dutifully buy the AM21 when it becomes available but I'm still a little resentful that there was simply no choice given me in the matter.


Fair enough, but it's all about timing. The demand for the HR20 was very great and it looks like the HR21 was released a bit early because of the need to get receivers in the field. Fortunately once the AM21 is available the issue will be much smaller.


----------



## RAD

Doug Brott said:


> Fair enough, but it's all about timing. The demand for the HR20 was very great and it looks like the HR21 was released a bit early because of the need to get receivers in the field. Fortunately once the AM21 is available the issue will be much smaller.


The flaw in that is was that D* stopped producing the HR20-700's in favor of the HR21's so they helped to create the problem. Hopefully the AM 21 will keep with the end of February date that was thrown around at CES and it doesn't turn into another SWM.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> The flaw in that is was that D* stopped producing the HR20-700's in favor of the HR21's so they helped to create the problem. Hopefully the AM 21 will keep with the end of February date that was thrown around at CES and it doesn't turn into another SWM.


There is next to no chance, that the AM21 will be "another SWM"...
To vastly different products, with vastly different factors impacting it's rollout.


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> There is next to no chance, that the AM21 will be "another SWM"...
> To vastly different products, with vastly different factors impacting it's rollout.


Good to hear. Thanks


----------



## Tom Robertson

Remember the SWM needs to be fully tested with a large number of receivers, the AM21 only needs testing with a much smaller subset, is a known technology, etc.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Rob Dawn

houskamp said:


> No it can't scan for channels..
> But you can put in 2 zipcodes for OTA channels.. and neither of these zipcodes has to be your "home" zip..


So with an HR2X, I could put my Colorado Springs zip code in as the primary and a Denver zip code in as secondary and I would get all the Colorado Springs AND Denver HD-LILs?!? (Colorado Springs is like 40 miles south of Denver and as far as I know we are on the same spot beam.)

Am I understanding this correctly?
Rob


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Rob Dawn said:


> So with an HR2X, I could put my Colorado Springs zip code in as the primary and a Denver zip code in as secondary and I would get all the Colorado Springs AND Denver HD-LILs?!? (Colorado Springs is like 40 miles south of Denver and as far as I know we are on the same spot beam.)
> 
> Am I understanding this correctly?
> Rob


If you can receive those signals via over-the-air antenna, yes. (with a HR20, now...with a HR21 AFTER the device this thread is based on, the AM-21, is available)

Not via your dish. You only get the LiLs of the market you are within.


----------



## mightythor88

since it is now 2/8 and the AM21 is supposed to be available at the end of February, I am a little concerned that i dont see an option to pre-order it from Directv.


----------



## Jeremy W

mightythor88 said:


> since it is now 2/8 and the AM21 is supposed to be available at the end of February, I am a little concerned that i dont see an option to pre-order it from Directv.


Why are you expecting a pre-order in the first place?


----------



## 2Guysfootball

I have a Question please don't blast me for it.
Will the AM21 be available to Everyone in March or just a few select Testers?
Also, are the subs that get it going to be charged another $4.99 a month for it?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

2Guysfootball said:


> I have a Question please don't blast me for it.
> Will the AM21 be available to Everyone in March or just a few select Testers?
> Also, are the subs that get it going to be charged another $4.99 a month for it?


We have no idea of when it will be released.
All the dates/months kicked around are just rumored.

However it is expected soon, don't know if that means February, March, or April.

But when it is made available, it will/should be to everyone.

No, it does not carry yet another additional $4.99 charge...
As it is not a receiver, it is an add-on to your HR21


----------



## 2Guysfootball

Earl Bonovich said:


> We have no idea of when it will be released.
> All the dates/months kicked around are just rumored.
> 
> However it is expected soon, don't know if that means February, March, or April.
> 
> But when it is made available, it will/should be to everyone.
> 
> No, it does not carry yet another additional $4.99 charge...
> As it is not a receiver, it is an add-on to your HR21


Thanks I was hoping that was the case.
Hopefully it comes out before April but I would rather have them take their time with it and get it right.


----------



## MichiganFan

Does anyone know how much heat this unit will generate?

I have an HR20 and the OTA tuners are very flakey. They go out for weeks at a time, even though the antenna cable can be checked and confirmed on other boxes. There isn't enough room in my cabinet to stack the AM21 if I swap for an HR21, but the new setup would work if I could put the tuner in a separate closed-door cabinet. The only connection to the box seems to be USB, so theoretically I should be able to place it anywhere within reach of the USB cable, right?


----------



## Jeremy W

MichiganFan said:


> Does anyone know how much heat this unit will generate?


From the pictures I've seen, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of ventillation on the box. So I'd assume that it will generate a minimal amount of heat.


MichiganFan said:


> The only connection to the box seems to be USB, so theoretically I should be able to place it anywhere within reach of the USB cable, right?


Yes, you can place it anywhere a USB cable will reach. However, you will need to get yourself another power cord, because the AM21 is designed to be plugged in using the HR21's power cord.


----------



## mightythor88

Jeremy W said:


> Why are you expecting a pre-order in the first place?


I'm not giving up my main HD tivo until I can be sure I can get the OTA since Directv doesnt offer HD locals in my area.

In this world of Amazon.com etc - I expect anything that is really coming out "soon" to be available for pre-order. 
The fact that it isnt pre-order tells me end of Feb is a pipedream ....


----------



## curt8403

Directv has announced that the AM 21 will be available for customers with the HR21 and need OTA by the end of March


----------



## Jeremy W

mightythor88 said:


> In this world of Amazon.com etc - I expect anything that is really coming out "soon" to be available for pre-order.


DirecTV has never done pre-orders in the past, and they won't do it now with the AM21.


----------



## cmtar

Will this be only something you can get from Directv.com or will you be able to get it at CC and BB?


----------



## Tom Robertson

I don't have any info on the distribution channels, tho I expect several of our favorite online places will have them.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Just when I thought I had done all I could to get the best deals, taking care of all extra wiring and grounding and proper dish installation after 3 tech visits, now it turned out my wife is missing two of her must-have channels, basically the 24/7 all weather channels carried by our local NBC and ABC stations as their digital sub-channels.

I called DirecTV asked if there is a chance to replace at least one of my HDDVR's with an HR20 model so she will stop bugging me, the best they could do was to note my account when the module is available in March I can call to order one for free.

Is this about right? Because it sure did not sound right to me there would be no other options at all.


----------



## JLucPicard

Read any of the threads where people are asking specifically for an HR20 and DirecTV can't guarantee that it won't be an HR21.

The available option would be to connect your antenna to your TV. I don't imagine your wife actually records the 24/7 weather channel, does she?


----------



## RobertE

jacmyoung said:


> Just when I thought I had done all I could to get the best deals, taking care of all extra wiring and grounding and proper dish installation after 3 tech visits, now it turned out my wife is missing two of her must-have channels, basically the 24/7 all weather channels carried by our local NBC and ABC stations as their digital sub-channels.
> 
> I called DirecTV asked if there is a chance to replace at least one of my HDDVR's with an HR20 model so she will stop bugging me, the best they could do was to note my account when the module is available in March I can call to order one for free.
> 
> Is this about right? Because it sure did not sound right to me there would be no other options at all.


If your not interested in recording the weather and your tv as a ATSC tuner, hook the OTA line to the TV. Sure she'll have to switch inputs, but she'll live.

And before anyone screams, it's too hard to switch inputs. Well, then sorry, your too dumb to watch TV, let alone do anything that requires a double digit IQ. Think back for a bit, there was a time when TVs didn't have a remote. I was the remote. Dad barked change the channel, I got up and changed the channel and/or volume. Some TVs even had *gasp* turn dials. :eek2: Somehow, we all made it through the dark ages of TV, you'll manage to adapt to pushing an input button on your remote. If not, find a six year old kid to do it for you.


----------



## jacmyoung

RobertE said:


> ...And before anyone screams, it's too hard to switch inputs. Well, then sorry, your too dumb to watch TV, let alone do anything that requires a double digit IQ. ...


I wish you could be there explain to my wife, cuz I know if I said anything like that I can kiss all my HDTV's goodbye.

No my wife is much smarter than me IQ wise, let's not go there please.

The HD set she relies on to watch weather is an old set HD ready, no tuner. Which is why I only need one module, all other sets have OTA digital tuners, and yes no need to pause or record. It is all about access to instant weather for a few minutes, whenever one needs to.


----------



## drx792

can she live with ACTIVE's weather for a little while??

its slow but she'll only have a month of ealing with it (supposedly)


----------



## jacmyoung

drx792 said:


> can she live with ACTIVE's weather for a little while??...


What is that?


----------



## CJTE

jacmyoung said:


> What is that?


If you have a DirecTV branded receiver, theres an ACTIVE button on the remote/front panel.

It has features suchas weather and horoscopes


----------



## jacmyoung

CJTE said:


> If you have a DirecTV branded receiver, theres an ACTIVE button on the remote/front panel.
> 
> It has features suchas weather and horoscopes


Thank you. I think that should do it.


----------



## Grentz

SO best guess on the AM21 is Mid-End of March?

I wonder why they wont let us record more than 2 things...seems like it would not be hard at all to let us record 3 or 4 


One question, how does it integrate (maybe HR20 users can shed some light) as far as OTA with locals when D* handles your locals and some in HD already? I get 4, 5, 9, 11 in HD and my other locals in SD, but I want to get the AM21 to get 2, 17, 23, 29 in HD and be able to have 2 things recording and watch a 3rd as long as one is OTA.


----------



## houskamp

Grentz said:


> SO best guess on the AM21 is Mid-End of March?
> 
> I wonder why they wont let us record more than 2 things...seems like it would not be hard at all to let us record 3 or 4
> 
> One question, how does it integrate (maybe HR20 users can shed some light) as far as OTA with locals when D* handles your locals and some in HD already? I get 4, 5, 9, 11 in HD and my other locals in SD, but I want to get the AM21 to get 2, 17, 23, 29 in HD and be able to have 2 things recording and watch a 3rd as long as one is OTA.


should be the same as the HR20.. you will have one SD sat, one HD sat (where availible) and then a X-1 OTA.. and possibly X-2,X-3....
for example mine shows 8,8,8-1,8-2,8-3..


----------



## Grentz

Ok, cool thx for the info.

So you would potentially have to setup the Series link on the correct version of the channel, say the OTA channel, to be able to view live another Sat channel and record another Sat channel all at the same time. But since the AM21 is dual tunner..potentially if there was 1 Sat and 1 OTA recording you could view live any other OTA or Sat channel just fine...

Darn, why could they not just make it quad tuner record and be done with it!


----------



## Doug Brott

Grentz said:


> Ok, cool thx for the info.
> 
> So you would potentially have to setup the Series link on the correct version of the channel, say the OTA channel, to be able to view live another Sat channel and record another Sat channel all at the same time. But since the AM21 is dual tunner..potentially if there was 1 Sat and 1 OTA recording you could view live any other OTA or Sat channel just fine...
> 
> Darn, why could they not just make it quad tuner record and be done with it!


yes, you will have to move your series links if you want them via OTA vs. SAT. I'm sure there are various reasons as to why only two of the four tuners can be recorded at one time, but it is a limitation that we must live with.


----------



## Grentz

Doug Brott said:


> yes, you will have to move your series links if you want them via OTA vs. SAT. I'm sure there are various reasons as to why only two of the four tuners can be recorded at one time, but it is a limitation that we must live with.


Ya, I am sure there is a reason for only 2 vs. 3 or 4...but still it could be something like the DLB issue where D* just does not want to implement it. Who knows?, besides D* that is :lol:


----------



## houskamp

actualy if you add it all up:
2 sat/OTA recordings
1 Dod recording
1 playing
1 for MRV (?)
5 streams at once on a single hard drive is starting to push the limits (with overhead)..


----------



## Jeremy W

Grentz said:


> But since the AM21 is dual tunner..potentially if there was 1 Sat and 1 OTA recording you could view live any other OTA or Sat channel just fine...


Incorrect. You can only use two tuners at once, period. If you're recording 1 sat and 1 OTA, you must either watch one of the two shows being recorded or an already recorded show. You cannot watch a different live broadcast, whether it's sat or OTA.

This is the way the HR20 works, and we've been told that the AM21 will work exactly the same way.


----------



## ssmith10pn

At least you can record one OTA and view another live. You cant do that with Dish VIP receivers. One OTA tuner Period.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Anyone found a place to pre-order yet??????????


----------



## Grentz

Jeremy W said:


> Incorrect. You can only use two tuners at once, period. If you're recording 1 sat and 1 OTA, you must either watch one of the two shows being recorded or an already recorded show. You cannot watch a different live broadcast, whether it's sat or OTA.
> 
> This is the way the HR20 works, and we've been told that the AM21 will work exactly the same way.


Well crap then, that is what I was asking about above and people said you could do....the AM21 just got a whole lot less interesting if that is indeed the truth...

I dont get why they would limit it to 2 things when there are going to be 4 tuners! Just make it so if using them you cannot use DOD, Mediashare, etc. if it is a bandwidth issue.


----------



## JeffBowser

It's likely a disk drive capability issue. Do what I do on the rare occasion I have an issue - split out an OTA input to the TV. That way you can have two busy DirecTV tuners and watch a 3rd via OTA.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Grentz said:


> Well crap then, that is what I was asking about above and people said you could do....the AM21 just got a whole lot less interesting if that is indeed the truth...
> 
> I dont get why they would limit it to 2 things when there are going to be 4 tuners! Just make it so if using them you cannot use DOD, Mediashare, etc. if it is a bandwidth issue.


Well that is completely true.

There is no difference in functionality between the HR20 and the HR21/AM21 combo.

Two NET tuners at once.

If it were to change, you would see the change on both the HR20 and HR21.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JeffBowser said:


> It's likely a disk drive capability issue. Do what I do on the rare occasion I have an issue - split out an OTA input to the TV. That way you can have two busy DirecTV tuners and watch a 3rd via OTA.


Or what a lot of do... and have a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th, or 5th, ) DVR...

Two Tuners has servered the purpose for the VAST VAST majority of users over the last 10 years. Going to 3 or 4, is a lot of work (As it is not just the physical hardware, there is a lot more that has to go into the programming as well)... and is the cost/time to do so worth it at this time?


----------



## JeffBowser

It's funny - I, personally, have needed 3 tuners on one TV exactly once, and it was last night :lol: I did what I just recommended


----------



## Sirshagg

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or what a lot of do... and have a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th, or 5th, ) DVR...
> 
> Two Tuners has servered the purpose for the VAST VAST majority of users over the last 10 years. Going to 3 or 4, is a lot of work (As it is not just the physical hardware, there is a lot more that has to go into the programming as well)... and is the cost/time to do so worth it at this time?


Plus there's a $5/mo/user incentive not to do it as that's what the current workaround costs us.


----------



## RAD

Grentz said:


> I dont get why they would limit it to 2 things when there are going to be 4 tuners! Just make it so if using them you cannot use DOD, Mediashare, etc. if it is a bandwidth issue.


I could see having a variable limit being a real PITA. You're listening to some music via MediaShare then one or more series links kick in that would go over the limit, which would take precident? Or the using the hoped for MRV to watch something and a SL comes up that again causes it to go over the limit, what gets cancelled? Putting in the fixed limit helps prevent conflicts.


----------



## Smuuth

I WANT MORE said:


> Anyone found a place to pre-order yet??????????


Asked and answered: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1444035&postcount=527


----------



## Grentz

Sirshagg said:


> Plus there's a $5/mo/user incentive not to do it as that's what the current workaround costs us.


Thats probably more it IMO.



RAD said:


> I could see having a variable limit being a real PITA. You're listening to some music via MediaShare then one or more series links kick in that would go over the limit, which would take precident? Or the using the hoped for MRV to watch something and a SL comes up that again causes it to go over the limit, what gets cancelled? Putting in the fixed limit helps prevent conflicts.


Ya, I understand that, but I still dont know if it really is a bandwidth limit.

You can easily have 4 OTA tuners in a PC that uses the same type of Hard Drive as in these DVRs. With hardware OTA tuners, there really is not much CPU or system overhead for recording as well. Especially since Directv feeds coming in MPEG4 or MPEG2 are essentially just "saved" to the hard drive and do not need to be rencoded.

O well, just a dream I guess


----------



## I WANT MORE

Smuuth said:


> Asked and answered: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1444035&postcount=527


Thanks, However that question was asked on 2-9 it is now 2-22. IIRC these units will also be available from outside vendors such as VE.


----------



## 94SupraTT

I have an installer coming out tomorrow. Its in the notes to bring a HR20 but I doubt they will have one. I don't think I can convince my wife into missing her soaps in HD for a few weeks.


----------



## Jeremy W

I WANT MORE said:


> that question was asked on 2-9 it is now 2-22.


And you think the answer has changed? Was my answer not absolute enough for you?


----------



## Smuuth

94SupraTT said:


> I have an installer coming out tomorrow. Its in the notes to bring a HR20 but I doubt they will have one. I don't think I can convince my wife into missing her soaps in HD for a few weeks.


How is she watching them in HD now? Why can't she continue watching them the same way?


----------



## arxaw

94SupraTT said:


> I have an installer coming out tomorrow. Its in the notes to bring a HR20 but I doubt they will have one. I don't think I can convince my wife into missing her soaps in HD for a few weeks.


Contact the installing company to verify they are bringing equipment you can use.

If they show up with a crippled DVR (HR21), refuse the install.

I couldn't get a 2nd HR20 from our local installer, so I obtained one at eBay express. Brand new w/ access card and in original sealed box for $239 - no tax and free shipping.
express dot ebay dot com


----------



## Grentz

arxaw said:


> Contact the installing company to verify they are bringing equipment you can use.
> 
> If they show up with a crippled DVR (HR21), refuse the install.
> 
> I couldn't get a 2nd HR20 from our local installer, so I obtained one at eBay express. Brand new w/ access card and in original sealed box for $239 - no tax and free shipping.
> express dot ebay dot com


Ya, some installers just plain do not have the HR20s anymore from what I gather. The guy who came to do my install said they have not seen an HR20 for a month or so, they are getting all HR21s.


----------



## 94SupraTT

Smuuth said:


> How is she watching them in HD now? Why can't she continue watching them the same way?


HR10 - OTA

We have another HR10 in our other living room so I'll just record her stuff on that until the AM21 comes out.


----------



## gwar28

Any one have any word on a release date?


----------



## Grentz

gwar28 said:


> Any one have any word on a release date?


All rumours point to sometime Middle - End of March.


----------



## esaletnik

Grentz said:


> All rumours point to sometime Middle - End of March.


Why should we beleive the middle of March when the end of February was not correct.


----------



## MIAMI1683

esaletnik said:


> Why should we beleive the middle of March when the end of February was not correct.


Why not believe it. It could be. With pre-orders being taken at solid signal now it must be very close. Just y 2 cents for what its worth!


----------



## Carl Spock

esaletnik said:


> Why should we beleive the middle of March when the end of February was not correct.


Does it cost you anything? Missing a ship date by a month is no big deal with electronics.

Nice first post, BTW. Welcome to dbstalk.


----------



## arxaw

according to solidsignal web site, 100 bucks. what a rip.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

arxaw said:


> according to solidsignal web site, 100 bucks. what a rip.


If you go back and check taht thread.

SolidSignal has already stated that if in fact it is $59 (which is what we were told at CES, and I have no reason to believe that isn't going to be the price)...

That is what they will actually charge/bill for pre-orders


----------



## I WANT MORE

Jeremy W said:


> And you think the answer has changed? Was my answer not absolute enough for you?


Well, Well, Well, looky here. Available for pre-order from Solid Signal. I guess your answer was absolute enough, WRONG, but absolute enough.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I WANT MORE said:


> Well, Well, Well, looky here. Available for pre-order from Solid Signal. I guess your answer was absolute enough, WRONG, but absolute enough.


FYI... Solid Signal took pre-orders for the R16 almost 4 months before it's release.

Unless Solid Signal adds an EXPECTED shipping date... where was Jermey wrong that there is no set date yet?


----------



## I WANT MORE

Earl, My beef is not with you. You are very helpful to others on this forum. I asked a simple question which asked if anyone had found a place to pre-order the AM21. Someone referred me to another post which pertained to pre-ordering from DirecTv. Then Jeremy jumped in with a smart remark about his answer being absolute. Now it appears that these CAN INDEED be preordered from Solid Signal. It appears that Jeremy was wrong in stating that I got my answer and should not ask again. 
I will now remove myself from this discussion since I received (indirectly) the answer to my original question.



Earl Bonovich said:


> FYI... Solid Signal took pre-orders for the R16 almost 4 months before it's release.
> 
> Unless Solid Signal adds an EXPECTED shipping date... where was Jermey wrong that there is no set date yet?





I WANT MORE said:


> Anyone found a place to pre-order yet??????????





I WANT MORE said:


> Thanks, However that question was asked on 2-9 it is now 2-22. IIRC these units will also be available from outside vendors such as VE.





Jeremy W said:


> And you think the answer has changed? Was my answer not absolute enough for you?





I WANT MORE said:


> Well, Well, Well, looky here. Available for pre-order from Solid Signal. I guess your answer was absolute enough, WRONG, but absolute enough.


----------



## PapaMouse

Ok I have tried a few searches and if my question is answered somewhere please dont shoot me.  Basically I have a client that switched from the H-20s I believe to the HD DVRs. They sent him the HR 21s. Now I know this has no way for the OTA to go into it yet, but I am seeing different posts requarding the new AM21, and a few reguarding the SWM (Single Wire Multiswitch). Are these able to be used in conjunction? Or how would I go about giving my client back his OTA. The current Multiswitch they gave us has no input for OTA anymore. He has 3 wires running to the rack. 1 for his cable signal, and 2 for his Sat Dual tuners. The way the setup used to be was fine because the old Multiswitch inserted the OTA into one of the feeds and I could Diplex it out. Is there a way this will work the way it was or will one of these new SWM or AM21 be the solution?

Papamouse


----------



## jefbal99

PapaMouse said:


> Ok I have tried a few searches and if my question is answered somewhere please dont shoot me. Basically I have a client that switched from the H-20s I believe to the HD DVRs. They sent him the HR 21s. Now I know this has no way for the OTA to go into it yet, but I am seeing different posts requarding the new AM21, and a few reguarding the SWM (Single Wire Multiswitch). Are these able to be used in conjunction? Or how would I go about giving my client back his OTA. The current Multiswitch they gave us has no input for OTA anymore. He has 3 wires running to the rack. 1 for his cable signal, and 2 for his Sat Dual tuners. The way the setup used to be was fine because the old Multiswitch inserted the OTA into one of the feeds and I could Diplex it out. Is there a way this will work the way it was or will one of these new SWM or AM21 be the solution?
> 
> Papamouse


You can still diplex with the new satellite setups, just place the BBC before the dilpexers. The SWM acts as the BBC for the entire system and has an OTA input.

If the client has HR21s then the AM21 will be needed in conjunction with either diplexed setup to receive the ATSC signals.


----------



## arxaw

Brand new HR20-700s are still available by searching for: *HR20 DVR* at express dot ebay dot com

I recently bought two. One for me and one for a friend.


----------



## houskamp

PapaMouse said:


> Ok I have tried a few searches and if my question is answered somewhere please dont shoot me. Basically I have a client that switched from the H-20s I believe to the HD DVRs. They sent him the HR 21s. Now I know this has no way for the OTA to go into it yet, but I am seeing different posts requarding the new AM21, and a few reguarding the SWM (Single Wire Multiswitch). Are these able to be used in conjunction? Or how would I go about giving my client back his OTA. The current Multiswitch they gave us has no input for OTA anymore. He has 3 wires running to the rack. 1 for his cable signal, and 2 for his Sat Dual tuners. The way the setup used to be was fine because the old Multiswitch inserted the OTA into one of the feeds and I could Diplex it out. Is there a way this will work the way it was or will one of these new SWM or AM21 be the solution?
> 
> Papamouse


See pic in setup...
the "moving the BBCs is an unsuported way but does work (left side)
the cleanest way is the SWM.. but they can be hard to obtain..


----------



## PapaMouse

jefbal99 said:


> You can still diplex with the new satellite setups, just place the BBC before the dilpexers. The SWM acts as the BBC for the entire system and has an OTA input.
> 
> If the client has HR21s then the AM21 will be needed in conjunction with either diplexed setup to receive the ATSC signals.


I think I see what you are meaning, with a little more looking up Meanings. I would still need to get him a SWM-8 or something similar, that I could feed the OTA into? Then Diplex it out on the other side? Or does the way the SWM work mean I could feed one feed into the SWM side and use the other wire from the Dual input side to run the OTA on? One way I would need to Diplex, the other way I could split it from the OTA and feed it into the AM21. No matter what I will have to get him an AM21 for each reciever location.

If I am understanding this right thank you for your assistance. If I am not than you for your patience. :lol:

Papamouse


----------



## houskamp

PapaMouse said:


> I think I see what you are meaning, with a little more looking up Meanings. I would still need to get him a SWM-8 or something similar, that I could feed the OTA into? Then Diplex it out on the other side? Or does the way the SWM work mean I could feed one feed into the SWM side and use the other wire from the Dual input side to run the OTA on? One way I would need to Diplex, the other way I could split it from the OTA and feed it into the AM21. No matter what I will have to get him an AM21 for each reciever location.
> 
> If I am understanding this right thank you for your assistance. If I am not than you for your patience. :lol:
> 
> Papamouse


Yes you would need to diplex it out at each reciever. One line to sat1 in and one to ant in..


----------



## PapaMouse

houskamp said:


> Yes you would need to diplex it out at each reciever. One line to sat1 in and one to ant in..


Great. Thank you for the advise.


----------



## Drew2k

I WANT MORE said:


> Well, Well, Well, looky here. Available for pre-order from Solid Signal. I guess your answer was absolute enough, WRONG, but absolute enough.


For the record, Jeremy's answer refers to pre-orders from DIRECTV. Solid Signal is not DIRECTV.


----------



## Jeremy W

I WANT MORE said:


> Well, Well, Well, looky here. Available for pre-order from Solid Signal. I guess your answer was absolute enough, WRONG, but absolute enough.


Did I say that Solid Signal wouldn't be doing a pre-order? I certainly did not. Read my initial post:


Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV has never done pre-orders in the past, and they won't do it now with the AM21.


DirecTV is not the one doing the pre-order, so my post was 100% correct. I never said anything about 3rd parties.


----------



## M.E

Did you kinda jump on him for asking a good question? Yes Did he say DirecTV...No For the record....looks like you need to reread how it all went down.


----------



## 21hawk

The original question was "a place to pre-order", the first time I read this exchange I thought a bit harsh, just don't understand why a "not yet" wouldn't have sufficed. Those two words would have been alot easy than the reply w/link.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Tell y'all what, lets bring this here thread back in the coral. Lets talk about the cool looking box and capabilities, not who said what when where to whom...

:backtotop

Thank yee kindlee,
Tom


----------



## GP245

Super Moderator:

That would be Super!


----------



## looter

GP245 said:


> Super Moderator:
> 
> That would be Super!


What would be super is some civility and respect or silence in lieu of that silence is an excellent option. Where are the rules about acceptable behavior in this forum?

Was it AVS that posted a great thread about not posting "search the forum" etc, and if you know the answer to a question... just answer the question, etc?

back to AM21...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

In simplist terms, the AM21 resolves the issue of OTA support for those who need it - and at a very low cost.


----------



## johnp37

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In simplist terms, the AM21 resolves the issue of OTA support for those who need it - and at a very low cost.


 Here's my bottom line for needing the AM21: Many of us have experienced loss of signal outages of varying duration. That being said, with ota capability, I at least can access my local digital channels. This is something that seems to have eluded Directv's R&D geniuses in developing the first,(700) second(200) and now third(100) generation HR21. Granted, outages are few and far between, but for some of us ota is a necessity.


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## Earl Bonovich

johnp37 said:


> Here's my bottom line for needing the AM21: Many of us have experienced loss of signal outages of varying duration. That being said, with ota capability, I at least can access my local digital channels. This is something that seems to have eluded Directv's R&D geniuses in developing the first,(700) second(200) and now third(100) generation HR21. Granted, outages are few and far between, but for some of us ota is a necessity.


It hasn't eluded them.

The HR21 was specifically designed without OTA...

Period... they did it on purpose.. 
They know there are some people that want OTA... hence why the development of AM21.

But bottom line... that # of people is a very small percentage of everyone who wants an HD-DVR...

And I think THAT is part that is eluding some people, that they are not looking at the bigger picture.


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## Tom Robertson

johnp37 said:


> Here's my bottom line for needing the AM21: Many of us have experienced loss of signal outages of varying duration. That being said, with ota capability, I at least can access my local digital channels. This is something that seems to have eluded Directv's R&D geniuses in developing the first,(700) second(200) and now third(100) generation HR21. Granted, outages are few and far between, but for some of us ota is a necessity.


DIRECTV recognizes that OTA is important to us. Even if only a small percentage, that is still a large enough number of customers.

So the HR21 family was designed to save DIRECTV a fair amount of money for a VERY large number of units; and the AM21 designed to supply the OTA needs for that very small yet very important number of customers who need (and use) OTA.

The AM21 is coming. The signs are there that progress is happening (the announcement at CES, the pre-orders online, the reports from CSRs, etc.) I can't say when it will actually ship--cuz I really don't know.

Cheers,
Tom


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## DVaccarelli

I just pre-ordered the AM21 just today for $99.99.


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## TheRatPatrol

DVaccarelli said:


> I just pre-ordered the AM21 just today for $99.99.


From where? And I thought they were suppose to be 59.99?


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## Tom Robertson

That might be the "just in case the final price isn't the $59 it was expected to be" markup. Then, hopefully, they will honor the real price when the unit is actually for sale.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Maruuk

Just jumped back and noticed that DTV was very specific as to the $59 selling price in the original PRs. So it would be pretty outrageous if they kicked it up at this point. Point is, this is at or just below their cost. Just like Sony and MS sell their consoles at a loss, it makes sense that a content provider, the razorblade vendor, wants to give away the razors.


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## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Just jumped back and noticed that DTV was very specific as to the $59 selling price in the original PRs. So it would be pretty outrageous if they kicked it up at this point. Point is, this is at or just below their cost. Just like Sony and MS sell their consoles at a loss, it makes sense that a content provider, the razorblade vendor, wants to give away the razors.


$59 is still the expected price of the unit.

The $99 is the price that one vendor is listing it at.


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## smiddy

Solid Signal has them advertised here. Enjoy!


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## jcwest

What's the latest info regarding when D* will have these units available?

J C


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## MIAMI1683

jcwest said:


> What's the latest info regarding when D* will have these units available?
> 
> J C


These are to be available " soon " for what that means. I am sure it will be soon though as the latest test software has support for the AM21 listed in it. So it appears to be moving along.


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## SC Flyboy

Well, I've called DTV every week since mid-February. In mid-Feb, they were saying it would be out in Feb. Then it changed to March. All through March I was assured it absolutely would be out before the end of March. Even on March 26, I was told end of March. On March 28 the story changed. Now it's early May. No one has any more information, although I'm currently on hold with a DTV Equipment rep right now waiting for a supervisor to try and research a better answer. I'll post if I find anything more.


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## RAD

I do see that the software for the HR21's that supports the AM21 is just today starting to roll out for national distribution, which takes a few weeks. So if D*'s waiting to release the AM21 the early May date will hopefully not slip any further. As a tester for the AM21 it does work and I think you'll be happy with it.


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## Greg Alsobrook

SC Flyboy said:


> Well, I've called DTV every week since mid-February. In mid-Feb, they were saying it would be out in Feb. Then it changed to March. All through March I was assured it absolutely would be out before the end of March. Even on March 26, I was told end of March. On March 28 the story changed. Now it's early May. No one has any more information, although I'm currently on hold with a DTV Equipment rep right now waiting for a supervisor to try and research a better answer. I'll post if I find anything more.


no need to call them every week... just keep an eye out here and you'll for sure know when it's available..


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## johnp37

smiddy said:


> Solid Signal has them advertised here. Enjoy!


 What's to enjoy? It's a preorder. We'll be lucky for a mid-May release, if then.


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## SC Flyboy

It's been very frustrating for me because I'm one that the OTA is not a nice-to-have backup. It's the only way we can get HD broadcast of the major networks in the market where I live. We don't yet have HD Locals through the satellite. When they told me I needed to upgrade my old HDDVR to the new one to be able to get all the new HD channels like History Channel, etc that I would also be losing my ability to get ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox HD and that I wouldn't get those back for at least six months, if then. If I had been given full disclosure, I have waited to switch. I watch a lot more programming on the major networks than on the sixty or seventy HD channels I do get now.


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## MIAMI1683

SC Flyboy said:


> It's been very frustrating for me because I'm one that the OTA is not a nice-to-have backup. It's the only way we can get HD broadcast of the major networks in the market where I live. We don't yet have HD Locals through the satellite. When they told me I needed to upgrade my old HDDVR to the new one to be able to get all the new HD channels like History Channel, etc that I would also be losing my ability to get ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox HD and that I wouldn't get those back for at least six months, if then. If I had been given full disclosure, I have waited to switch. I watch a lot more programming on the major networks than on the sixty or seventy HD channels I do get now.


 OTA is important in your market. You're right, but calling D* every week isn't going to help that. It is coming out. This group knows that. There are people here who were lucky enough to have been part of the field tests. Because of that they have them. It won't be much longer. Earl or somebody here will know when it becomes available. It will get announced. I'm sure of it. Have a great day!


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## hasan

SC Flyboy said:


> It's been very frustrating for me because I'm one that the OTA is not a nice-to-have backup. It's the only way we can get HD broadcast of the major networks in the market where I live. We don't yet have HD Locals through the satellite. When they told me I needed to upgrade my old HDDVR to the new one to be able to get all the new HD channels like History Channel, etc that I would also be losing my ability to get ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox HD and that I wouldn't get those back for at least six months, if then. If I had been given full disclosure, I have waited to switch. I watch a lot more programming on the major networks than on the sixty or seventy HD channels I do get now.


Be patient. The AM21 works very, very well with my HR21-200. It has a superb tuner. There are very few reported issues with it, more with one model than another, but very few overall. It shouldn't be all that long.

Be prepared for more frustration, however, unrelated to either the internal OTA tuner in the HR20 or the external AM21 for the HR21 series: when the digital switchover happens in Feb 2009, *if any of your stations go back from UHF to VHF*, all D* OTA HD receivers will have problems for a while. All D* H series receivers are "database" driven. The database is poorly managed by D*/Tribune/Local Engineers and is slow to get all channel assignments "pushed" to the D* receivers. If this info isn't correct (and it won't be, based on past experience), then the channels that have the wrong info won't be received.

Be prepared...it is very likely to happen as outlined above. It takes from a few days to a few weeks to a few months for the three "players" (D*/Tribune/Local Engineers) to get things right. There will be lots of finger-pointing about whose fault it is from the usual suspects. Your best line of help will be your local TV station engineer. Find his number...you're going to need it.

(Again, this only applies if your local station changes back from UHF to VHF. In our area, I think 3 of them are changing back, so it's going to be a mess here for a while.)


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## sound man

for anyone who is controlling the hr21 via rs232 and using the usb to db9 adapters, is there a known solution to also be able to use this tuner since it is over usb?


maybe a small usb splitter / hub unit?


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## litzdog911

sound man said:


> for anyone who is controlling the hr21 via rs232 and using the usb to db9 adapters, is there a known solution to also be able to use this tuner since it is over usb?
> 
> maybe a small usb splitter / hub unit?


Good question. I would be surprised if the HR21 can support both a USB Serial Remote Controller and the AM21 OTA Tuner simultaneously.


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## bobnielsen

sound man said:


> for anyone who is controlling the hr21 via rs232 and using the usb to db9 adapters, is there a known solution to also be able to use this tuner since it is over usb?
> 
> maybe a small usb splitter / hub unit?


Front panel USB port?


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## Jeremy W

litzdog911 said:


> I would be surprised if the HR21 can support both a USB Serial Remote Controller and the AM21 OTA Tuner simultaneously.


I wouldn't. USB as a standard has no problem with hubs, and there is no reason to believe that the HR21's USB implementation would be any different. The two USB ports on it now are probably just on an internal hub, I highly doubt they have two separate USB controllers.


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