# DISCUSSION OF BUG: No Info Bug (Logray)



## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

My first No Info bug on 2.89.

Received 2.89 sometime last week from 2.84.

On Monday 7/25, reset to factory defauts, deleted OTA channels, wiped favorites, 2 hard resets, and a check switch. Added OTA channels back, added favorites back. 811 put into standby monday night and tuesday night (as always).

Today, while flipping OTA channels using channel up and channel down after going through about 5 OTA channels relatively rapidly (not waiting for next channel to appear)... when I pressed guide I saw my first No Info with 2.89. Now when I go into the guide and press the right scroll button all channels show No Info for all timeslots. The EPG is also completely non-responsive. I'm unable to change channels or move the cursor. Everything outside of the EPG works fine. Scrolling to the right as Ron had previously suggested does nothing. I'm unable to get the EPG to start downloading it's program guide data. For any show beyone about a half hour from now, for OTA's the EPG says "local digital". There is guide data only for the next half hour or so. Some Sat channels say "Info Not Available" for shows starting in a half hour. Others that go on for the next hour and a half have the current program information. I'll leave it in this state for a whille before I hard reset and will monitor the BBS for replies to see if anyone wants any more information about this error condition.

2) Also another odd thing last night was that the page up to change zoom settings was going really slowly - a noticable delay of several seconds between each zoom setting. This cleared up after the unit had been in standby all night.

3) Third issue that I'm very dissapointed about - 2.89 did not resolve PSIP EPG data problem with 2 of my OTA digital locals, CBS 13.1 (KOVR) and PBS 6.1 (KVIE) here in Sacramento . They still both say Local Digital (even without the No Info condition). (btw I have a second dish pointing at 148 wing and sw64 with legacy LNBs for 119 & 110).

Other than these things 2.89 is a winner. Definately like the enhanced graphics in the menu screen. Looks like my 311.

-logray


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Also, when I press guide, then press right arrow - "No Info" shows up and the video for the OTA channel goes black in the EPG - then I press cancel (then a 3 or 4 second pause) - then the EPG goes away and the OTA channel is black with no picture and the signal strength reads 0 - I have to press channel up or down to get the picture back.

The same thing happens with a SAT channel.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

update: i just went back to the 811 after it was idle for 4 hours or so and pressed guide, then right arrow - it downloaded program data and finished, but the EPG was still not populated more than a half hour out in the future. I pressed right again and same thing popped up - "No Info" for all channels on all time slots. Also the EPG became locked and did not respond to any buttons except for cancel which exited the EPG (and the channel I was watching became blank).

This is exactly the same stuff I was experiencing with 284 on a regular basis. Do you think it has something to do with one of the OTA digital locals I get?


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

waited another 2 hours, pressed guide again, downloaded program info, pressed right again, no info again, cancel, then guide again, pressing right does not download program info just brings up no info and locks the epg. still haven't hard booted it in case there is more information I should gather first!


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

logray said:


> waited another 2 hours, pressed guide again, downloaded program info, pressed right again, no info again, cancel, then guide again, pressing right does not download program info just brings up no info and locks the epg. still haven't hard booted it in case there is more information I should gather first!


Logray... If you can take a quick movie with a digital camera showing it that would be cool If not, I would reboot for now and see if it comes back. This does sound similar to Kens issue.. Do you seem to have a similar set up to his?

Thanks BigDaddy. There goes DMA theory out the door. I know Jason is working with Ken offline on his issue. I am sure if he finds something out he will let us know.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Ron Barry said:


> Logray... If you can take a quick movie with a digital camera showing it that would be cool If not, I would reboot for now and see if it comes back.


I've taken two low res movies. 

#1 http://www.savefile.com/files/2415489
#2 http://www.savefile.com/files/5107396

#1 is a movie showing the bug with SAT. The sequance shows me pressing guide, note "Info Not Available" for some shows past an hour or so. Then I press right. Then No Info appears on all channels and the video preview goes black. At this point sometimes the receiver downloads program guide data (usually after sitting for a long period of time), the EPG is unlocked and video previvew returns but not always. Either way, No Info is still there and I can press right again and the EPG remains completely locked and the only button that works is pressing cancel. So next in the movie I press cancel - you will then see the now black channel I was watching, then I press channel up and video returns. If I don't press cancel in the EPG and just let it sit there, the EPG will disappear and video will return after 3 minutes. Video does not seem to return at all (waited 10 minutes once) if I press cancel after the EPG has locked up.

#2 is a movie showing the bug with OTA. The sequence shows the same thing as above. You will see a couple channels with Local Digital - but this is normal for these channels (PBS & CBS) in Sacramento.



Ron Barry said:


> This does sound similar to Kens issue.. Do you seem to have a similar set up to his?


I've answered all the same questions below. We don't use the same remote or switch/lnbf.

1) Does this occur by just pressing the EPG guide button or do you move around the guide using the arrows?

For me it happened after changing through about 5 digital OTA channels rapidly using the channel up button without being in the guide and not allowing the next channel to appear/tune before switching to the next channel. Although I'm not 100% positive about this, at some point while I was changing channels, one of the channels might have appeared to have remaped to its UHF number (UPN?), then back to station number. Then after this sequence I pressed guide. Now, I can reproduce the "No Info" issue every time I go into the EPG and press right arrow on the remote. The EPG becomes totally non responsive after that and I have to cancel to get out. Also, the video preview in the EPG goes black and after I press cancel the channel I was watching, SAT or OTA is black and I have to press channel up or down to get the picture back on.

2) Are you using the 811 UHF remote or a universal remote?

811 UHF

3) Does this happen all the time or just occassionally?

This is my first "No Info bug" on 2.89, but have only been on 2.89 since late last week. The same thing happened to me roughly once a week on 2.84. On 2.84, the EPG was still responsive though and occasionally in this condition it would go into downloading program data "loops".

4) Do you keep your unit on 247 or place it in standby at night?

Standby. It was on standby all last night in the No Info condition where I can easily reproduce the bug. Unfortunately a night sitting in standby did not fix the issue. I will have to do the old hold the power button in trick.

5) Are you running a DP Twin? If not what type of LNBF and switch?

All legacy dual LNBFs running into a SW64. I have 119, 110, & 148 birds.

6) Do you have any other receivers? If so what model(s)?

I have one 811, and two 311's?

7) What is your signal strength on 110 TP21 from the 811?

89

8) When you press sysinfo, what does it say in box "b" and "h"?

b - 0
h - SW64

Also, I get my locals on sat and OTA. Another interesting side note - PBS (KVIE) here in Sacramento switches to High Def broadcast between 6pm and 6am every day - when they do this they drop two of their SD channels 6.3 and 6.4. Annoyingly enough, when this happens, like clockwork when I watch this channel after 6pm, the 811 remaps this station off of it's VHF channel number (6.1,2,3,4) and onto it's UHF channel number (53.1,2) on the 811. In the morning, if I view 53.1 again it remaps again back to 6.1. This time, in the no info condition, it remapped back to 6 and now all of my digital OTA's show "Local Digital" whereas before the remapping there was data there (except for 6.1 and 13.1 which have always shown Local Digital).


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

UPDATE: I JUST REBOOTED MY 811, AND WAS ABLE TO IMMEDIATELY REPRODUCE THIS BUG AGAIN.

This time, after changing channels (both OTA and SAT) fairly rapidly and then going into the guide, I saw "Local Digital" on some of my OTA's for the last timeslot visable, pressed right arrow in the EPG until No Info popped up on all channels and the EPG became locked again.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Hmmm.. I will have to give this a try logray. Still trying to digest your detailed post above.  Thanks for the update. I am not seeing any of the EPG issues you and a few others are seeing. I will give it a try tonight.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

This time I cold booted and was able to reproduce the issue again. Rapid channel OTA channel changes. I wish my digital camera could take video long enough to capture this problem, but it only takes 30 seconds at a time. If you could see what I'm doing, basically I'm just using the channel up and down buttons on my UHF remote to rapidly go through my OTAs (and a few SATs), sometimes allowing it to tune to a channel, other times, just scrolling through the channels before it can lock in. Eventually, after enough of these events when I go into the EPG - the entire sequence what I have explained in my posts above with the "No Info" bug appears.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Good Info Logray... Let me see if I can get my box to do it tonight.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well I gave it a try. I was able to get my 811 to do guide download but could not get the "No Info" to occur. I do notice that if you press guide and then cancel real fast you will for a brief second see the guide with "No Info". Maybe this is a timing thing but I could not get it to happen. I tried for about 20 minutes.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Logray,

Is the PBS channel the only one that is remapping? As an experiment, remove the channels that seem to be doing remapping from both your favorites first and then from the OTA configuration. See if the "No Info" goes away. With 287, I had some strange things occur when channels were getting remapped when they are included in the favorites list.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

yaesumofo said:


> Just wondering When using he hdmi output o my samsung monitor I am still getting video dropouts. It is video and audio to the monitor but the audio still comes out of the 5.1 audio system. I notice this more with Off the air reception but sat reception is not immune.
> Any ideas?
> Yaesumofo


What type of DVI to HDMI converter are you using?


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## khearrean (Mar 24, 2004)

logray said:


> Ok. Ron - you are the man. MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH.
> 
> Can the others here experiencing the same problem replicate this bug and narrow it down to a particular station or stations?
> 
> Is there anyone else in Sacramento on this board experiencing the same issue?


I know that Jason knows this, but just so everyone else is clear on this since there seems to be (2) different "No Info Bugs", the 'No Info' problem I am having is on all the SAT channels, not OTA. My OTA channels have never had program info appear in the EPG.

Ken


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

khearrean said:


> I know that Jason knows this, but just so everyone else is clear on this since there seems to be (2) different "No Info Bugs", the 'No Info' problem I am having is on all the SAT channels, not OTA. My OTA channels have never had program info appear in the EPG.
> 
> Ken


EDIT: removed assumptions regarding 811 and PSIP, since all data is from satellite, not terrestrial broadcast.

Ken,

I'm going to make a leap of logic here and say that we are describing the same bug. There is commonality between our issues in that we both have locals that do not display program info - apparently there is a problem with the 811 tuning/changing OTA channels that dish satellites do not supply EPG data for - eventually manifesting itself in an EPG SNAFU lock up.

"No Info" also appears on all of my SAT channels when the two locals are added to my 811 that do not display program info in the EPG. When I remove the two OTA locals that don't display program info, then I am not able to reproduce the No Info bug.

To you, it probably just looks like it is a SAT only NO INFO problem since you never see EPG data for OTA locals. For me, I have 5 other OTA channels (besides PBS and CBS) that DO display EPG data normally, and during the "No Info" Condition, they display "Local Digital" instead of the actual guide data. You probably see "Local Digital" all the time.

Ken - I would guess that if you remove all of your OTA channels you will not be able to reproduce the No Info bug - assuming you are experiencing the same one that I am where you change OTA channels rapidly, go into the guide, then press right until the EPG locks and all channels display "No Info".


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't know how many times this has been said but yet again here goes.

The 811 *does not* read the program guide info from the PSIP. Any guide data that shows up on your digital OTAs is supplied by Dish network's satellite tables.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

BFG said:


> I don't know how many times this has been said but yet again here goes.
> 
> The 811 *does not* read the program guide info from the PSIP. Any guide data that shows up on your digital OTAs is supplied by Dish network's satellite tables.


Sweet, so when can we expect Dish to clean up the EPG data for these channels?

Edit: cleaned up the post above before I had this information - removed assumptions regarding the 811 and PSIP.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

That's ok. I didn't really read the rest of your posts, but I just saw the part about you blaming your local stations EPG PSIP problems and had to say something 

Although dish doesn't display the EPG data you may be on to something with how dish manipulates the locals by adding guide data versus the local channels they do not have a data stream for.

I have had these No Info bugs, and BSODs you've talked about and it may very well have something to do with having digital OTAs that have no guide data in the guide. I've been using a favorites list with only HD channels and all of mine have guide data and I haven't had these problems anymore so there may definitely be something here.

It still amazes me how there can be so many different bug scenarios with folks using the same said software. I personally was on P287 before and had absolutely no problems going up to P289 I haven't had to do a thing and my box has been working just fine.

The only new problem I've seen is that the picture can jag a little when I exit the EPG but it hasn't crashed my box thankfully


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

BFG said:


> ...I have had these No Info bugs, and BSODs you've talked about and it may very well have something to do with having digital OTAs that have no guide data in the guide. I've been using a favorites list with only HD channels and all of mine have guide data and I haven't had these problems anymore so there may definitely be something here.


I have solid reproducable proof that the NO INFO bug is directly related to the OTA channels without guide data. By the way none of the testing I did had anything to do with favorites. I have favorites lists, however none of the offending missing EPG data channels were present in any of my favorites lists and I am able to replicate the problem.

It's as simple as this. Add these channels to my 811 - wham - NO INFO bug appears when I flip through these channels quickly. Remove them from my 811 - no mo' NO INFO bug. :grin: Exactly how that relates to the EPG locking up and the box requiring a reboot, and whether that has something to do with missing guide data, beats me - but it does indeed look like we've stumbled onto something here. I bet you could reproduce the same thing BFG, assuming you have digital OTA's that always say "Local Digital".



BFG said:


> ...It still amazes me how there can be so many different bug scenarios with folks using the same said software.


My personal opinion is that some people just have different ways to describe the same thing - as I believe this is the situation Ken and I are in.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

I do have locals that say Local Digital all the time.

But i'm using a favorites list and those sub-channels aren't included in my list.

But it sounds like you're saying that you can have a list without these channels and still create the bug? Because it sounded to me like you had to have them in your list to make it happened.

Also you said that you have some -01 channels that have "Local Digital"
Well that is not the case for me, as all of the -01 channels I have scanned in have a corresponding dish local and I get guide for them. 
But for your market, dish has moved some of the guides for stations to the -02 channel, so that may be something...


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

logray said:


> ...I bet you could reproduce the same thing BFG, assuming you have digital OTA's that always say "Local Digital" ....My personal opinion is that some people just have different ways to describe the same thing - as I believe this is the situation Ken and I are in.


I have several Subchannels that display Local digital and also in my favorites list and I do not have the issue you are describing.

I agree with you that people have different ways to describe the same problem, but I do believe that your bug and Ken's bug are unique. If I am understanding Ken correctly his bug is he cannot get the guide to download at all without forcing it.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Apologies for any misinterpretation BFG, favorites have nothing to do with this as none of the -01 channels that show "local digital" all the time are in any favorites list when I can reproduce this bug.

I also have subchannels that show "Local Digital", but the problem lies with the channels whose -01's show "Local Digital". In my case for Sacramento, PBS and CBS. The channels that have data for -01 and no data for 02, 03, etc. subchannels do not produce the NO INFO bug when present on the system.

BFG, you probably never see the problem since your favorites lists are comprised of locals that all have guide data. If you have any locals where the -01 channels say "local digital" all the time, add them to your favorites, or hop on over to All Channels and you can make this happen every time. I sat there for an hour today doing it.

Also curious BFG, why would dish move data from -01 to -02? Surely not to make me type up a couple pages worth of diagnosis.

Jason, like Ken I am also unable to get the program data to download when in this errored condition, I have to pull the plug. I have a feeling that is the state his receiver is in. If I let it sit for hours while in the NO INFO condition, and I press guide the guide data downloads but it does not populate the EPG when it is finished - actually it does for SAT, but you can only see a half hour to an hour at a time for some SAT channels and the last half hour you see "Info Not Available". At this point ALL OTA channels show "Local Digital" for all timeslots. Interestingly enough the problem is kinda masked in 289 because if you never press the right key in the EPG to browse future times, you'll never run into the problem - just see "Info Not Available" on some SAT channels. The guide data is there for some channels and it does progress throughout the day... it's just the 811 is having trouble reading or displaying it properly. I can come back 4 hours later and see data for the next half hour... Of course, pressing right on the remote locks the EPG.

I disagree that this is a unique problem with Ken and I. If you or anyone else out there has -01 channels that normally show "Local Digital" I would bet a case of beer that they could reproduce this bug. Heck, my parents stumble upon it once a week.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

I have channels that list Local Digital, I have tried to reproduce the problem and have not been able to.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

post deleted - sorry i have slow sat internet connection


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Ahhh yes Jason, however you are talking about a subchannel. I'm talking about a primary channel showing "local digital". You can only reproduce this bug if you have a primary channel - say in your case 13-01 that normally says "Local Digital" all the time. Interestingly enough, in my case 13-01 is a channel that causes me grief. Subchannels can not cause this problem - my NBC affiliate has a subchannel and when it is present on the receiver without CBS or PBS it does not cause this problem.

Whew, before I didn't see the picture and I thought I owed you a case of beer. :eek2:

Also BFG both PBS and CBS have dish locals too which I happily subscribe to for one of my receivers without an OTA tuner. 

Here's a pic of what mine looks like (the favorites list is there to show you both of the problematic channels back to back).


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

OK, I will try this out. I'll pull my 121 feed in the morning so that I loose my OTA guide data. This will force all the locals into this criteria. Too late now, let you know if it replicates or not in the morning.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Also note how annoying it is seeing 53-01 (UHF) instead of 6-01. I've read on the local OTA boards here that this can be confusing for children - but it's thrown my parents for a loop too when they're trying to find PBS after 6pm when they switch over to HD broadbast.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

Ok, Now that one may be a problem with your local station 

It may be that they drop the PSIP data when they do HD, which would cause the channel not to re-map to 06-01.

If you could get your hands on a regular digital OTA tuner it could probably be very helpful to see how those handle this PBS switch. You may be able to buy one at CC test it out and return it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Great stuff logray... Based on your info, I was able to reproduce it. What you need to do is be in guide that contains the channel with "O1" and the local area tag. Then you have to channel surf. 

Guess what.. I hardly ever channel surf and always use the guide to move from channel to channel... Even with that, all channels with local 01 are UHF digital broadcasted channels I would never watch. (THis is another example of Two different use cases and answers the question why does some see this and other do not). 

WHat I saw when i got into this state was that when I first got it to happen I saw info not available on all stations. I then saw all my locals displaying "Local Data" and my Dish stations would come and go as I brought the EPG up. Hitting right arrow would immediately result in the "No Info" and would appear locked. I was however able to get out of of the EPG. 

I could get the Dish guide info back but not the OTA guide info. I also so the guid e info differ as I scrolled between favorites. 

Key here....

1) have a 01 channel with local digital in the guide that is selected.
2) Change channels across that local digital guide with 01 selected.
3) Do it for a while and you should get a EPG that looks like the ones in the pics

As you can see in the pictures, I did get a downloading guide and it appeared to finish. But no guide data.

Great detective work there logray..


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

BFG said:


> ...If you could get your hands on a regular digital OTA tuner it could probably be very helpful to see how those handle this PBS switch...


My ATI HDTV Wonder tuner does not have this problem. It is always locked on "06-01" 24/7.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Ron Barry said:


> I could get the Dish guide info back but not the OTA guide info.


Ron - you do mean _Limited_ guide info back - you still saw the "No Info Available" for some SAT channels correct? Good catch on the differing info too - I never really noticed that before.



Ron Barry said:


> Great detective work there logray...


Yep, this is exactly what I'm seeing Ron. I guess in your case you never watch the channels that have this problem and in Jason's case, he has to pull the plug on a dish to force no guide data (unconfirmed).

In my case, I get a call every week or so from my parents. "The damn TV is doing the info thing again...". Explitaves removed of course. In any case I suppose the detective work was all done for their sake, or perhaps mine because I'm so sick of them complaining about it!!! I just hope something can be done about it cause' I'm sure they won't be happy with - well you can't watch PBS or CBS anymore... I'm not sure which would make them call me more.

Wait a minute... can you delete all my posts?  Maybe it was better off the other way...


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

At times I would get OTA saying "Local Digital" with Correct Satellite INfo. I also say "Local Digital" on OTA with "No Information Available" and I also saw the "No Info" Al depended on what I was doing as I was popping up the EPG and moving around. 

As to a work around. I think if you use the EPG to move between channels you might not get this to occur. I know your parents wont like to change their viewing methods but it might get around this issue until a fix can be identified.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Good idea. I'll let them know using the EPG is the way to go (if they can remember) until a fix comes out - if that means moving the local guide data over to -01 or a patch in software. Hopefully a fix will come soon - I would think having the local guide data on -01 would not be as big a deal, but who knows. And hopefully we won't see the same or similar bug using soley the EPG to navigate.

The thing is my mom is not so good with electronics and especially remote controls - she's pretty much at her limit with power on/off, channel up/down, and volume up/down. Now I guess I'll have to teach her EPG. Oh dear...

By the way thanks for breaking this out to it's own thread - I was actually thinking of creating a new one but so much information was already in the 2.89 discussion.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

No problem.. I will give the EPG a quick try and see if I can get the "No Info" to happen.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Did a quick test.. I could not get it to happen by using the EPG so this might be a viable work around if you have the 01 Local Data in the channel list to use the EPG to channel switch. Definitely should minimize getting a no info. My guess is it is a timing bug that happens when switching channels.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

For me, having the guide data on -01 would be the perferred fix, if that is a valid fix - considering -01 are the channels typically put in favorites (due to HD content/feed), not the subchannels with the guide data for -01. Also, the other locals here have their guide data in -01, so what's up with CBS and PBS?


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

logray said:


> My ATI HDTV Wonder tuner does not have this problem. It is always locked on "06-01" 24/7.


Also in the 811 - the stations call letters disappear in the EPG when they switch to HD at night and it remaps to 53-01, 53-02.

I have a theory about the reason why dish has the program guide data on -02 for PBS. From 6am to 6pm -02 shows the program info for -01. At 6pm, -01 becomes the HD national feed and -02 becomes what -01 was during the day. Perhaps dish doesn't have a way to accomodate this channel switch and populate PBS HD guide data for -01, so they just stick the guide data on -02 since it is accurate from 6pm to 6am. If my guess is correct, I suppose the only way to fix this would be for PBS to keep -01 the same and make -02 the HD channel at night, then have dish move the guide data to -01.

For CBS, I can't figure out why they would put the guide data on -02, considering -02 is an exact mirror of -01 except the channel is in SD whereas -01 is in HD.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

logray said:


> Also in the 811 - the stations call letters disappear in the EPG when they switch to HD at night and it remaps to 53-01, 53-02.


Call letters are derived from the stations PSIP. And so is Channel Mapping and if it is remapped from 53-01 to 5-01 this is done through TVCT which is transmitted via the stations PSIP. If you have wondering OTA channels that is your broadcasters fault.

Now here is what I found. I disconnected my 121 feed early this morning, I did a check switch to clear out the 121 LNBF, and I exited out of the setup menu and let the guide download. I tried in favorites, all sub, I played with locks, rebooted and let the guide download, set it to an OTA station, then I took off shopping and let the 811 continue to run on an OTA station while I was gone, 3 hours later came home, guide data was still there, I rebooted again to force the guide to refresh yet again, still have data. I reconnected the 121 feed and set it back up, then went into the guide with LiL locals restored. I could not replicate the problem.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Pictures continued....


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Here's a pic with 121 restored.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Jason.. I got this to happen without wondering channels. I selected "All channels" and cycled through them. I was able to replicate it. Look back at my posts. might give you more of a clue.


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## gschroed (May 8, 2005)

BFG said:


> If you could get your hands on a regular digital OTA tuner it could probably be very helpful to see how those handle this PBS switch.


My Integra 912 shows 6-1 for KVIE at all times. But I don't remember what time of day the channel was scanned. The 912 may just tune to 53-1 and display what it stored as the channel number at the time of scanning.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Jason.. I got this to happen without wondering channels. I selected "All channels" and cycled through them. I was able to replicate it. Look back at my posts. might give you more of a clue.


Ron, Give me a call tonight, you can walk me through your process so I can replicate.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Jason are you changing OTA channels outside of the EPG? Press up and down to channel surf rapidly. Make sure you surf over -01 channels displaying "Local Digital" a couple times, and do the channel changes fast enough to where it doesn't lock in. After enough of this, when you press guide, just press right until the EPG locks up and you see NO INFO. I can replicate this bug without playing with channel locks, going into the EPG (other than to see NO INFO), forcing guide downloads, or playing with favorites. 

You can hit it so long as you have a -01 OTA channel with "Local Digital" on the all channels list. It seems as if those are the only requirements.

Perhaps you won't be able to replicate this even by tricking the 811 into thinking it doesn't have guide data for -01's.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Jason Nipp said:


> Call letters are derived from the stations PSIP. And so is Channel Mapping and if it is remapped from 53-01 to 5-01 this is done through TVCT which is transmitted via the stations PSIP. If you have w[a]ndering OTA channels that is your broadcasters fault...


We have evidence that two other flavors of OTA tuners do not have this problem... My ATI HDTV Wonder and gschroed's Integra 912. To put it politely, it sounds to me like the 811's tuner is a little more picky than most - or perhaps as gschroed pointed out it just has to do with other tuners storing the channel that was mapped at time of scanning and doesn't update it's memory unless you re-scan it (just out of curiosity gschroed can you test this theory out?). Whereas the 811 maps dynamically in real time.

It will be (and has been) very difficult to convince the station that it is their problem if only one or two types of tuners are singled out with a problem.

Edit: after scanning through another boards posts, I have found that people have been having problems with this channel wandering since June 2004. The station has claimed they will do something about the problem as early as late last year. On the list of tuners that have a problem with this channel are Sony and 811. Samsung has occasionally had this problem. ATI, Pioneer, & Integra do not have this problem. KVIE has stated up and down it is a problem with the tuners in question, not their station. Disappointing indeed.

Here's a list of posts documenting the problem if anyone is interested. avsforum.com KVIE wandering post #1, post #2, post #3, post #4, post #5, post #6, post #7, post #8, post #9, post #10, post #11, post #12, post #13


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

logray said:


> Jason are you changing OTA channels outside of the EPG? Press up and down to channel surf rapidly. Make sure you surf over -01 channels displaying "Local Digital" a couple times, and do the channel changes fast enough to where it doesn't lock in.


Ya, I tried. There are theories about why these no info bugs pop up for some and not for others. 1 theory, not substanciated by the way, it that there is a glitch that causes interference in the disect signal. This theory is aimed at a certain series of LNBF's, but again it is not a substanciated verified theory.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Well perhaps Ron can assist you in replicating the bug - or like I said earlier, if you don't have naturally ocurring -01 OTA's displaying "Local Digital" then you may never be able to replicate the bug... but Ron and I were able to hit it without any issues and at any time. Also, AFIK Ron and I have different hardware - I am running all legacy dual LNBs into a SW64. Ron, what are you running - DP Twin?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I have a DP44 and DishPro LNBs I believe. I don't think I have a DP Twin but then again I am horriable when it comes to hardware. Not sure exactly the root cause, but it does seem to occur with me when I am switching between all my OTAs including the 01 local info ones. I could not get this to reproduce without the 01 local info. 

I tried today and got it to occur again. For me it does take some work. Infact, today I thought I had not gotten it to fail until I returned later and found it was in the state.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Well if you have a DP44, then you are running dish pro - completely different equipment from what I am running. I am running legacy equipment which includes a Starband dish for Internet that handles 110, 119, and 129 for Internet, and a DP500 with a legacy dual LNBF on the 119 slot of the y yoke for 148. All connected to an SW64.

The only common thing between our setups is that we are using the 811, 2.89 software, and have OTA locals that normally show "Local Digital" in the EPG for the OTA -01 channels.

Jason, that kinda throws the hardware side out of this problem, doesn't it?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Like said earlier. At this point there may be one or two bugs here. I have seen some other mentions of something like this. Not sure what the configuration is and at this point I am not even sure if the 01 local digital is a contributing factor. The possibility may be that there is some thing uniquie in mine and yours OTA streams on those channels that is triggering it. 

I plan on talking to Jason tonight.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

I wish we could get a wider sampling. Perhaps a call to all 811 users on this board with "Local Digital" "-01's" to conduct the simple test of rapidly changing OTA channels. We have to start with some point of commonality in order to eliminate variables. Otherwise we will be banging our heads on this forever with all the possible scenarios/configurations out there.

What is the other No Info bug you have heard of with 2.89? What of Ken's setup and No Info issue?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Update:: 

I was able to get this to occur without having an 01- Local Digital in the channels I was quickly changing between. I did have a 02 local digital in the favorites I have been toggling through. I am more suspecting it is a timing issue with the channel up and down on OTAs but I am not sure at this point. 

As a side note, I also seem to be getting a OTA channel locked as a result of this bug. Not sure if it is because I am rebooting my box but one of my OTA channels keeps reappearing as locked after I run into this issue.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

logray said:


> I wish we could get a wider sampling. Perhaps a call to all 811 users on this board with "Local Digital" "-01's" to conduct the simple test of rapidly changing OTA channels. We have to start with some point of commonality in order to eliminate variables. Otherwise we will be banging our heads on this forever with all the possible scenarios/configurations out there.
> 
> What is the other No Info bug you have heard of with 2.89? What of Ken's setup and No Info issue?


logray, if you want to do this, post a poll. Don't be cautious about doing something like this if you believe it will help isolate a bug. Being able to make a bug easy to find in turn can help make a better product as root cause and solutions are easier to implement if the trigger is identified.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Update::
> 
> I was able to get this to occur without having an 01- Local Digital in the channels I was quickly changing between. I did have a 02 local digital in the favorites I have been toggling through. I am more suspecting it is a timing issue with the channel up and down on OTAs but I am not sure at this point.
> 
> As a side note, I also seem to be getting a OTA channel locked as a result of this bug. Not sure if it is because I am rebooting my box but one of my OTA channels keeps reappearing as locked after I run into this issue.


Wasn't Boylehome having an issue with OTA's getting locked and as a result were not appearing in fav lists? I'm impressed guys, really does look like you have identified a bug and isolated the trigger. I would be interested in knowing both of your Hardware versions. I believe that info was moved to page 3 of sysinfo.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

It looks like it has nothing to do with Local Digital.. I can get this to happen with channels that contain only program data. OTA only. Here is what I am doing to narrow it down. 

1) Create a favorites list. 
2) Place only OTA channels in it. 
3) Channel Up and Down and use recall. Watching the signal meeter and trying to change the channel just as it show strength. 
4) Occassionally I pop browse window up and EPG from time to time. 

Got a few more things I am going to do to narrow down the steps. Jason I left a message on your cell. 

As for a group test... I don't think it is necessary. 

As to the stuck lock.. yes mine looks like a flavor of Boylehomes. More on that later.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Great finds Ron.



Ron Barry said:


> As for a group test... I don't think it is necessary.


Whew. I was gearing up to "call out the dogs" on highdefforum, avsforum, and satguys.us. Let me know if you think this would be useful.



Jason Nipp said:


> logray, if you want to do this, post a poll.


I created a poll here earlier but decided to remove it once we had more information. If at some point we think this would aid this whole process one can be created again.

After reading through some other websites though, this is definately a wide spread issue. Here are DBStalk we obviously have the most information at this point - most of the others are completely in the dark - many people have received RMA's, thrown beer bottles at the unit, think it's related to poor satellite signal, repeaking, etc.



Ron Barry said:


> As a side note, I also seem to be getting a OTA channel locked as a result of this bug.


Ron - I have seen OTA locks appear on their own before. It seems to me that once no info is triggered, all hell breaks loose on the unit.

Jason - Hardware info is as follows:

DNASP: 02Rev283
HardwareID LADD-N
Bootstrap 1014


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

That is why I don't think having people try and duplicate this issue is wise. Not sure if this lock thing is related, but I noticed it first haver reproducing the NoInfo. I do feel it is related to OTA and channel changing. More after I have had some more time and narrow it down further.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Device: 
DP44-500
Twin-1(1)
Twin-2(2)
Dual-2(4)

DNASP: 02 REV283
BOOTSTRAP: 1014
HARDWAREID: LADD-N
SOFTWARE: 289


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Ok. Narrowed it down.

1) Two OTA channels with no Sub channels associated with them in favorites.
2) Channel Up .. Channel Down and Recall only used. No Browse buttons pushed. 
3) Was able to get it into the state rather quickly... (My timing is getting better and my feel for it is improving). I strongly feel this is a timing issue. Race condition perhaps.

Couple notes:

1) During the test.. I actually lost my favorites configuration for the two channel favorites. By lost.. it all off a sudden jumped to the next one and my configuration for my favorites I was playing with no longer had the two channels. I had to re-add them.

2) When I hit this problem.. I have flipped between my favorites. I see missing guide info. ALmost like the EPG guide info is corrupt.

3) After I got the no info, I decided to get my hardware info. When I did this and exited, I got the downloading guide. I waited for it to finish. I looked around and there was what looked like some program slot had info others did not. Hit the right arrow and boom.. All no Info again.

4) I placed the unit in standby for a while. when I returned the program data for the OTA locals was back. One right button later, "No Info" again.

I think this one has been classified enough for the 811 team. Jason I will call you tomorrow just incase you have any questions.

Way to get things going logray.... This is great stuff and a very positive thread. :righton:. Not sure much more can be done from our side.

*Work Around: Minimize channel surfing using up and down arrows and use the EPG to move from channel to channel. *


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

>>> 2) PgUp .. PgDn and Recall only used. No Browse buttons pushed.<<<

You do mean ChUp & ChDwn right?

I was able to follow your steps to reproduce, although not as easily as I could having more OTA channels in a list. I had to press channel up/down maybe 2-3 times per second with two OTA's. Even then it took some leg work. Maybe after studying it for a while I could pick up the timing like you have. Pressing recall seemed to confuse it too.

With a list of 7 OTA's, some of them with 3 subchannels - and some of them displaying "Local Digital" on the "-01"'s, I can press ChUp/ChDwn maybe 1-2 times per second or less and run into this bug with very little effort.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Yeap.. ChUp and ChDwn.. it was late.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

BTW, Ron and logray, your receiver hardware configs are identical. I am using LAFD-N.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Interesting.. maybe it is hardware dependent. Might be time for a pool to see if anyone is seeing the No Info and what hardward do you have. Sorry. I got back from the Circus late so I coudl not give you a ring. Maybe tomorrow night.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

My Uncle's 811 is running and I had no issues getting this bug to appear this evening.

He is running different hardware than ours Ron.

Here's his info:
DNASP: 02 REV283
BOOTSTRAP: 1014
HARDWAREID: LABD-N
SOFTWARE: 2.89


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## gschroed (May 8, 2005)

This evening, while the 811 was showing KVIE as 53-1, I cleared KVIE (6-1) from the memory of my Integra 912. When I did an OTA scan, it showed up as 6-1 again, NOT 53-1, as the 811 was showing.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

gschroed said:


> This evening, while the 811 was showing KVIE as 53-1, I cleared KVIE (6-1) from the memory of my Integra 912. When I did an OTA scan, it showed up as 6-1 again, NOT 53-1, as the 811 was showing.


Sweet. Well after looking through some other forums, I found that the problem exists in a few different models, dish receivers being some of them, but have seen posts of people having the same trouble with Sony and occasionally Samsung. Pioneer, ATI, and Integra seem to be immune from this problem. I'm not sure about others out there.

I started an email chain with KVIE's general manager, VP of engineering, and the team of individuals responsible for deploying their digital broadcast equipment in 2004. We will see where that gets us.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

FYI: I saw a post somewhere this evening that apparently Dish has been aware of an issue with "program guide data not updating properly" on p.289 and the issue was not corrected with a hardware replacement received last Thursday, July 28th, 2005. So, given that the RMA would take a few days, Dish has known about it for some time now. Digest this data how you feel necessary.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

I am told that this issue has been isolated and a fix for it will appear in the next release.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Cool...


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

Jason Nipp said:


> I am told that this issue has been isolated and a fix for it will appear in the next release.


Now if only studdering-video can make it to the to-do list. How can this NOT be a priority when it's apparent on all channels INCLUDING HD?

:nono2: :nono2: :nono2: :nono2:


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

moman19 said:


> Now if only studdering-video can make it to the to-do list. How can this NOT be a priority when it's apparent on all channels INCLUDING HD?
> 
> :nono2: :nono2: :nono2: :nono2:


Allen, I know that one it is high on the priority list. Don't loose faith, some things are just easier to fix than others. I think they are doing a good job cleaning up the bugs on the 811. Gotta say it has come along way in the last year.


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## khearrean (Mar 24, 2004)

Jason Nipp said:


> I am told that this issue has been isolated and a fix for it will appear in the next release.


Jason:

As I told you yesterday in a PM, my "No Info" bug is back. You indicate here that a fix will be coming. I just want to make sure we are all talking about the same issue. I see a lot of posts here regarding this problem and OTA channels. My problem is not related to the OTA channels; my "No Info" problem is on SAT only. Also, I don't use a favorites list, nor do I have any locks in place. MY EPG will work fine until it exhausts all the stored program data (approx. 4 days). But then the "No Info Available" message will come up on all channels in the EPG. If I 'Right Arrow' far enough, the wording in the EPG changes to "No Info" and the upper right window goes black & everything locks up. Only a soft (or hard) re-boot corrects the problem and brings back program info for a few days. In other words, I have to force the unit to download new program info. As to my local OTA channels, they all show "Local Digital" & seem to be fine.

Ken


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Ken,

Personally I don't think has any relationship to Favorites or Locks. Not sure if it is related to OTA either, but can be reproduced. At one time I felt that this issue was related to Channel surfing not using the EPG guide. However, based on the polls I am not sure this is the case. I am sure I know how to reproduce it and documented it. Still need to try and document trying to reproduce through the search. 

The symptoms you describe sound very similar to what I was seeing. I also so some other things during my testing that I have some concern about. One was having my favorites disappear and the other was and OTA channel jump to its frequency. My guess both of these are artifacts of this issue. 

Good to get down the experiences. It is possible that yours might be different, but until they clear the trees they might not be able to see the forest.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Ken I still question whether or not your bug is the same or not. I was given the impression that are are two scenarios. If you could tonight, please bypass your switch as recommended to see if that helps. We can also reset your receivers memory. In any case the 811 only downloads 44 hrs worth of data at time.


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## khearrean (Mar 24, 2004)

I'll bypass the switch this afternoon when I get home, give it a day or so & then let you know the results. Of course it may be 4-5 days since I did the soft re-boot & my EPG was refreshed last night. If not, we wouldn't know for sure until the current program data is exhausted.

Ken


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Ken, When you bypass the switch you will need to menu 6-1-1 check switch. When it is done learning your new config it will download the EPG after reboot. So after that you show beable to see if the issue repeats within 44 hrs.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Jason Nipp said:


> I am told that this issue has been isolated and a fix for it will appear in the next release.


Jason. Hello. I know we don't deal in estimating release dates for new software releases, but I'm wondering if you might be able to convey the relative severity of this issue from Dish perspective (if you aren't privvy to this information, then perhaps your best estimate will do). For example: Do you feel this issue is considered a "low key" issue that will be rolled into a list of many other bug fixes and relased at some distant point X in the future, is this a "hot issue" that will be addressed before other bug fixes are accumulated and released sooner than some distant point X in the future, or somewhere in between?

TIA for all your support - great job!!!


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

At this point, I might have to agree with Ken that we are seeing multiple bugs here. On the other hand, I may reserve the right to reverse the comment above, and agree with Ron about "clearing the trees to see the forest".

The household has not utilized the "channel surf" feature since the "no info" workaround was divulged. The EPG has been the only method of navigation since the last hard reset. Today, after the unit had been in standby for 4 days while the household was vacationing on the coast, the unit exhibited symptoms similar, but not identical to the "no info" condition documented previously. After the extended standby duration, a user entered the EPG and immediately saw "no info available" on all SAT channels, similar to what Ken described. Shortly thereafter the unit begain downloading program data after which it did not appear to populate the guide. From that point forward the unit behaved as if though we hit the "no info" condition previously described and isolated, however more satellite channels appeared to display "no info" instead of partial guide data than with the original issue.

With that said, during this no info condition everything seemed to be strikingly similiar to the no info condition previously described - pressing right would lock the EPG. All OTA's displayed "local digital". SATs displayed "no info available".

I have to say though that at this point I would like to see if this issue would resurface after the new software released before declaring that another no info trigger has been discovered.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

logray said:


> Jason. Hello. I know we don't deal in estimating release dates for new software releases, but I'm wondering if you might be able to convey the relative severity of this issue from Dish perspective (if you aren't privvy to this information, then perhaps your best estimate will do). For example: Do you feel this issue is considered a "low key" issue that will be rolled into a list of many other bug fixes and relased at some distant point X in the future, is this a "hot issue" that will be addressed before other bug fixes are accumulated and released sooner than some distant point X in the future, or somewhere in between?
> 
> TIA for all your support - great job!!!


No the next release is not far away. As I stated in an earlier thread I learned that this bug is not new with P289 and it was already being looked into.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

I just encountered another "No Info" trigger. Same symptoms as above however this time the "No Info" condition happened after an OTA channel automatically remapped from it's VC to it's UHF channel number while tuning it.

1.) Selected channel from EPG.
2.) Channel tuned, then info banner at the top flickered extremely rapidly - fading out until it went black, then the channel tuned in and appeared.
3.) Pressed guide. This channel was now listed as 53-01 instead of 06-01. (this very well may be a TVCT PSIP issue at the station, but it happens on a regular basis - every day from 6pm to 6am when this station switches to HD broadcast and drops two of it's VC's).
4.) All channels displayed No Info, etc.

I am pretty sure the trigger that caused the No Info was when 06-01 (VC) remapped to 53-01 (UHF) and not the channel selection event from within the EPG.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

You sure that the jump from frequency did not occur after the "No Info" trigger. I have had this happen at least 3 times while triggering the "No Info" Once while Jeremy was on the phone. Next time this happen try manually re-adding the channel that seems to be at its frequncy. My guess is a manual re-add will successfully re-add the channel back to its frequency. Then again.. Maybe not.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

It's really hard to say, but I do know that before I selected the channel everything was fine in the EPG. As soon as selected the channel and after it tuned and remapped that's when I saw No Info. 

Also I've played around ad-infintium with trying to get this channel to "stay put" at it's virtual channel "6" instead of it's UHF channel "53". I can count on this channel remapping itself each day like I can count on the sun rising and setting.

I would say the most shocking part of the whole thing was watching the information banner at the top of the screen flicker rapidly until it blacked out. Then the channel tuned in. Next thing you know I see No Info in the EPG.

So what's abnormal here is that the channel remapping/tuning event seemed to cause the No Info condition, not the actual channel remapping/tuning event (which happens daily).

Or perhaps I just hit another case of No Info from the EPG with a twist of really odd flickering info banner.

I guess on this one I would say the best thing to do is wait for the next software release and see if I can reproduce. The problem with this one is that I can only try this one out once a day when this channel switches feeds at 6pm.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Based on your description Logray, I would say you are most likely correct that it is most likely related to the channel feed switching and not a result of getting the "No Info". "No Info" is a result and not a symptom in your case. What I was seeing was the channel remap was a result of the "No Info" not a cause.


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

For what it's worth, for the past 2 days I have been experiencing the same "NO INFO" issues and flickering banners as Logray. And I too, was on vacation last week with the 811 firmly in the OFF position. However I have NOT experienced the channel number flip-flop issue.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

moman, I think the flip flop issue is specific to a station here in Sacramento - and a problem with their PSIP VC data. I've seen the same thing as you - not using channel changes just the EPG - leave the unit in standby for several days - then come back and No Info is there.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

For the love of ODIN, BUMP I say. BUMP!!!


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