# Need suggestions on new reciever...



## Italfra1

Guys, I'm starting the process of trying to find a new reciever to run my home theatre. I'm probably looking to spend $1000 - $1200 on a new reciever. My current reciever that has powered my system is a Marantz SR 7500 that put out about 105 watts and I loved the sound quality. It's currently in the shop with a Check Pow 5 problem that they might be able to fix for $225.00. I'll keep it as a back up but I'm really looking forward to upgrading to a new reciever. Here's a little info on my current Home Theatre and speaker set up. If anyone could tell me what the advantages would be to upgrade to a more powerful reciever that would be great and also what type of increase in sound quality should I expect. I don't want to purchase a reciever that is more than my speakers can handle. I'll list below my speaker set up so you can match up a nice reciever with them.

My current Marantz seemed to work nice with this set up but what would make this current speaker set up sound even nicer. Love to hear some suggestions.

Thanks, Frank

Reciever - Marantz SR 7500 7.1 (currently being repaired and looking to replace)

Front Speakers - B&W DM 602 S3's (Larger Bookshelf Speakers)

Rear Speakers - B&W DM 601 S3's (Larger Bookshelf Speakers)

Center Channel - B&W LCR600 S3

Subwoofer - HSU Technology VTF2 - MK2

Samsung HDTV HLR5078w Rear Projection HDTV


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## Jason Whiddon

I just bought the SR6005 because it's marked down to $699 and a steal. Great AVR with the lossless codecs, and I think you will enjoy that. The new model is a SR6006 and is around $1100. IMO, Id buy the SR6005, use it as a preamp and spend the money on a Emotiva amp. Now you are playing big time.


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## Cholly

Not meaning to diss Marantz, but I would suggest you look at the new models from Yamaha and Onkyo (I happen to be somewhat of a Yamaha bigot). Yamaha has a new Aventage series of A/V receivers that have excellent specs and features. Here's one at $1099 MSRP: http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/aventage/rx-a1010_black_u/?mode=model

As to Onkyo, check the TX-NR809, also $1099 MSRP http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR809&class=Receiver&p=i


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## Jason Whiddon

I like Yamaha, but do not like onkyo sound. They are great for cooking bacon though.


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## CCarncross

The Denon AVR3312CI might be right up your alley. I'm a Denon convert from Yamaha. I've got mine running though a set of Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.5 mains...yes I smile a lot. Will smile even more when I get the CC-590 center in a few months.


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## Jason Whiddon

Nice speakers.


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## Italfra1

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm gonna look into the Marantz 6005 & 6006. I'll also take a look at the Yamaha, Onkyo & Denon mentioned. I'm leaning towards Marantz because it's what I've had for the last six years and love the sound, just want more of it. Does the speaker set up I have sound decent. It's pretty much all B&W's DM series bookshelf speakers on stands, B&W center and a HSU subwoofer. Obviously not the top of the line B&W stuff but it's what I could afford when I put the system together. Will I notice a difference in sound upgrading from my current Marantz SR 7500 or is it more the addition of all the new bells & whistles. Can't wait to buy myself a xmas present.


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## Jason Whiddon

Sounds like a nice setup. I just moved from def tech small speakers to klipsch reference line speakers, big change. I also have an HSU sub and love it.


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## MysteryMan

Nice setup OP. Take a look at Sony's STR-DA5500 and STR-DA5600 ES receivers.


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## Italfra1

elwaylite said:


> Sounds like a nice setup. I just moved from def tech small speakers to klipsch reference line speakers, big change. I also have an HSU sub and love it.


Elwaylite,

I love the sound of my B&W set up and for the size of the room it sounds amazing. And I love my HSU sub. New very little about it when I purchased it but I just went on some recommendations from people who have them. It just makes a world of difference with movies and music to have that nice warm bass.

You had mentioned in your first reply to my post about considering the Marantz SR 6005 as a pre amp and also purchaing an Emotiva amp. Can you explain that to me? What are the advantages of that? I know lot's of people that have amps but don't really understand what the benefit is. I know I love the way they look but I would really like to know if would be too much power for the size of speakers I have. Any chance you could educate me. Thx.


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## Italfra1

MysteryMan said:


> Nice setup OP. Take a look at Sony's STR-DA5500 and STR-DA5600 ES receivers.


I'll take a look at both of these. Are they in the same league and price point as the Marantz SR 6005 & Marantz SR 6006? Thanks.


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## MysteryMan

Italfra1 said:


> I'll take a look at both of these. Are they in the same league and price point as the Marantz SR 6005 & Marantz SR 6006? Thanks.


They're definitely in the big leagues with a slightly higher price tag but well worth it. I have been using sony ES equipment for years.


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## CCarncross

Quite truthfully, if there was nothing wrong with your Marantz sonically, then replacing it with another solid performer should result in virtually no difference in sound quality. Some will say brand A is a little brighter than brand b, and it may be true, but those guys are usually splitting hairs. When you are dealing with decent consumer stuff, not the crazy priced esoteric gear, its more about features, and ergonomics than drastic performance differences.


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## Jason Whiddon

CCarncross said:


> Quite truthfully, if there was nothing wrong with your Marantz sonically, then replacing it with another solid performer should result in virtually no difference in sound quality. Some will say brand A is a little brighter than brand b, and it may be true, but those guys are usually splitting hairs. When you are dealing with decent consumer stuff, not the crazy priced esoteric gear, its more about features, and ergonomics than drastic performance differences.


I agree with this, because it also depends on the the brand of the amp and the speakers you are driving. I noticed a little less "metallic" sound going from Onkyo to Denon, but nothing from Denon to Marantz. Only reason I got the 6005 was the deal and the better amp.


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## Davenlr

elwaylite said:


> I agree with this


Tried to PM this to ya, but it wont let you PM attachments, so Ill put it here.
Took it last week when I drove by their place.


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## Jason Whiddon

Sweet! Im a new Klipsch speaker owner, and have become a huge fan of the gear.


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## Italfra1

CCarncross said:


> Quite truthfully, if there was nothing wrong with your Marantz sonically, then replacing it with another solid performer should result in virtually no difference in sound quality. Some will say brand A is a little brighter than brand b, and it may be true, but those guys are usually splitting hairs. When you are dealing with decent consumer stuff, not the crazy priced esoteric gear, its more about features, and ergonomics than drastic performance differences.


I couldn't agree more. The current sound with the Marantz SR 7500 is sweet and I happen to love the B&W speaker setup that I have. If the room was larger I would consider larger floor speakers but right now it makes no sense for me to go that route. I am interested in upgrading the reciever to one of the new Marantz's or looking into some of the other options that some people have suggested. Probably not going to notice a whole lot of difference in sound quality with a new reciever and I'm fine with that because I like my current sound. But I will like all the new bells & whistles.

Can anyone explain to me what the purpose is of buying a nice reciever and than an Emotiva amp to go along with it. What is the purpose of having a seperate amp?

Thx.


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## bobukcat

Italfra1 said:


> I'll take a look at both of these. Are they in the same league and price point as the Marantz SR 6005 & Marantz SR 6006? Thanks.


I have an ES series AVR but I relegated it to a secondary role when I found out it clips the video signal through HDMI. I would recommend you check AVS Forum for the model you are considering and get confirmation that they no longer have this "issue" before going that route.

I replaced it with an Pioneer Elite SC-27 and absolutely love it so I'd suggest you take a look at their current lineup as well.


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## Shades228

Preparing your environment can make more of a difference than spending more on a receiver in most cases. I've had $1800 receivers and I've had $300 receivers. There are obviously more options in that extreme but once you get around the $500 - $1000 price range your options start to get less per $ and more about stuff that may or may not matter. However taking that $500-$1000 dollars and spending it on acoustically prepping your room will make a $500 receiver sound amazing compared to a $1800 receiver in a non prepped environment. Most people attempt to compensate a poor acoustic room with more expensive parts. I'm not saying it doesn't sound better than cheaper parts but it's not always the best bang for the buck.

Buy a receiver that has the options you want and then spend the extra cash on environment and speakers.


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## John Williams

Shades228 said:


> Preparing your environment can make more of a difference than spending more on a receiver in most cases. I've had $1800 receivers and I've had $300 receivers. There are obviously more options in that extreme but once you get around the $500 - $1000 price range your options start to get less per $ and more about stuff that may or may not matter. However taking that $500-$1000 dollars and spending it on acoustically prepping your room will make a $500 receiver sound amazing compared to a $1800 receiver in a non prepped environment. Most people attempt to compensate a poor acoustic room with more expensive parts. I'm not saying it doesn't sound better than cheaper parts but it's not always the best bang for the buck.
> 
> Buy a receiver that has the options you want and then spend the extra cash on environment and speakers.


+1 on this.
All you have to do is just start talking and slowly cup your hands around your mouth. Notice how VERY dramatically the sound of your voice changes. This same thing happens when you put speakers in a corner, or close to a wall, in a cabinet, or just having them 'in a room'.
The room you are listening to a sound system in, will account for 40-60% of the sound you hear on average. A bad sounding room is going to sound bad no matter how much money you throw in equipment - including Audyssey band-aids :lol:
Locating the speakers properly in the room, seating locations, and possibly acoustic treatments for certain problems, are the best money to spend when it comes to sound. Unfortunately, if you don't know how to apply this science to your listening space, it isn't going to help. And most people don't - there are engineering degrees of several years that apply to this stuff. And listening to people on the internet is certainly a bad idea in this category.
Either hire a pro to help: http://www.homeacoustics.net/ good place to start. Or be prepared to do a lot of research, here are some good links to start:
http://www.rpginc.com/news/library.htm
http://www.acoustics101.com/

Of course the easiest way out of this is just get another Marantz receiver. If you already liked the sound you had and don't want to dive into it any deeper.


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## subeluvr

The single most important component in ANY audio system, regardless of the channel count, is the ROOM. A room with a glaring sonic flaw will not be correctd with electronics or speakers. You can't generate a 20Hz note in a 10x15 room regardless of how badly you want to or what the salesman who sold you that subwoofer said. Your audio system's sonic profile has to be tailored to the room or you're just throwing away money and fooling yourself.

That said, to the OP...

Try the Denon. The sonic characteristics of Denon electronics work and play very well with the sonic characteristics of B&W speakers... especially the modestly priced B&Ws like your 602s.


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## John Williams

subeluvr said:


> You can't generate a 20Hz note in a 10x15 room regardless of how badly you want to or what the salesman who sold you that subwoofer said.


You might want to rethink that statement, as it absolutely isn't true. 
We would never listen to headphones if the above physics applied in the real world, as all we could hear is sounds above 10kHz. Obviously not true.
And our car stereo systems could never produce sounds below about 90Hz. Again obviously not true.


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## subeluvr

John Williams said:


> You might want to rethink that statement, as it absolutely isn't true.
> We would never listen to headphones if the above physics applied in the real world, as all we could hear is sounds above 10kHz. Obviously not true.
> And our car stereo systems could never produce sounds below about 90Hz. Again obviously not true.


With respect John,

Do the math on a 20Hz note and you'll see that there's not sufficient length in either dimension in a 10x15 room so a 20Hz wave wouldn't hit itself.

I should have said _you can't generate a *clean* 20Hz note in a 10x15 room that wouldn't cancel itself to some degree_.

If you put a TDS on a car stereo in a car you'd be amazed to see what frequencies are NOT being generated cleanly. I have and the results won me a lot of bets back in the day.


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## Italfra1

Thanks guys. I have all the information I need at this point. I'll look into all the recievers that you've mentioned and make a decision. My room is roughly 15ft wide x 21ft long. Not a tiny room but not huge either. I'm far from an audio expert but I've always thought that I had a good ear for sound. The thought of having acoustic panels or some geek from a sound company come out and charge me to tell me how far out from the wall and where my speakers need to be placed is a joke. I can see if you have $25k worth of high end home theatre equipment but I'm a simple guy that's just looking for a decent reciever to run his modest system. Appreciate all your information.


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## John Williams

subeluvr said:


> With respect John,
> 
> Do the math on a 20Hz note and you'll see that there's not sufficient length in either dimension in a 10x15 room so a 20Hz wave wouldn't hit itself.
> 
> I should have said _you can't generate a *clean* 20Hz note in a 10x15 room that wouldn't cancel itself to some degree_.
> 
> If you put a TDS on a car stereo in a car you'd be amazed to see what frequencies are NOT being generated cleanly. I have and the results won me a lot of bets back in the day.


So we are now in agreement that the frequency's are reproduced no matter the size of the listening environment.
If you have used a TDS system (TEF25 or the old TEF20 maybe?) then you have also seen that regardless of dimensions, destructive interference can and does occur at all frequencies - either due to boundary loading, reflections, standing waves, etc...

One thing I'm sure we agree on, the listening environment makes the biggest difference in a sound system. Which will lead me to the next quote of the OP.


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## Davenlr

subeluvr said:


> I should have said _you can't generate a *clean* 20Hz note in a 10x15 room that wouldn't cancel itself to some degree_.


Or vibrate the trunk, windows, and everything within 30' irritating the hell out of anyone else in the grocery store parking lot having to listen to it.


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## John Williams

Italfra1 said:


> The thought of having acoustic panels or some geek from a sound company come out and charge me to tell me how far out from the wall and where my speakers need to be placed is a joke. I can see if you have $25k worth of high end home theatre equipment but I'm a simple guy that's just looking for a decent reciever to run his modest system.


But the joke maybe on you. We are trying to make you understand how much the room, placement of speakers, and listening positions have on the sound - WAY!!!! more than any silly amount of money you will spend on equipment. This is a cold hard fact.
More than once I have done an audio system for a customer (an example of $10K comes to mind), that I designed, installed, and calibrated. The customer was thrilled with it and wanted me to look at a friend's system. The friend had spend well over $50K on his system and sounded meh.... (translation: not so good). Why! Because either him or someone else (I didn't ask) had just bought a bunch of equipment and hooked it up with no regard to the listening environment (i.e. they didn't really know what they were doing).

The conclusion to this:

If you just want a surround sound system and not spend a lot of money... great, that's fine. Do take the time to research and learn to try to get it as ideal as possible. The difference in a budget sound system sounding good or sounding like crap is how well you follow industry standard guidelines for this kind of stuff. And there are industry standard guidelines (a lot of them), you just have to really read and research the topic.

If you want to have really great sound and spend a lot of money on equipment, then you NEED to hire a professional as part of the budget to help with the room. Only 1 exception to this: If you are already a good sound DIY that has a lot of expereince working with rooms and sound systems.

Again:
If you were happy with the Marantz receiver and don't want the possiblitly of making a mistake in another brand, then get another Marantz (it is a good receiver). If you are happy with the sound you are getting and have no desire to improve upon it, then don't worry about the 'joke' of having it setup properly either. You'll never know and it will be fine - whether it was off just a little or a lot.


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## Italfra1

John Williams said:


> But the joke maybe on you. We are trying to make you understand how much the room, placement of speakers, and listening positions have on the sound - WAY!!!! more than any silly amount of money you will spend on equipment. This is a cold hard fact.
> More than once I have done an audio system for a customer (an example of $10K comes to mind), that I designed, installed, and calibrated. The customer was thrilled with it and wanted me to look at a friend's system. The friend had spend well over $50K on his system and sounded meh.... (translation: not so good). Why! Because either him or someone else (I didn't ask) had just bought a bunch of equipment and hooked it up with no regard to the listening environment (i.e. they didn't really know what they were doing).
> 
> The conclusion to this:
> 
> If you just want a surround sound system and not spend a lot of money... great, that's fine. Do take the time to research and learn to try to get it as ideal as possible. The difference in a budget sound system sounding good or sounding like crap is how well you follow industry standard guidelines for this kind of stuff. And there are industry standard guidelines (a lot of them), you just have to really read and research the topic.
> 
> If you want to have really great sound and spend a lot of money on equipment, then you NEED to hire a professional as part of the budget to help with the room. Only 1 exception to this: If you are already a good sound DIY that has a lot of expereince working with rooms and sound systems.
> 
> Again:
> If you were happy with the Marantz receiver and don't want the possiblitly of making a mistake in another brand, then get another Marantz (it is a good receiver). If you are happy with the sound you are getting and have no desire to improve upon it, then don't worry about the 'joke' of having it setup properly either. You'll never know and it will be fine - whether it was off just a little or a lot.


Thanks for all the information. It all makes sense and I appreciate you explaining it in a way that makes total sense to me. With my current speaker configuration, HDTV, blu ray player and more I'm probably into my system for close to $10k dollars. Maybe I'll bite the bullet and have an audio pro come out and dial in my entire system. It would give me piece of mind to know that it's hooked up correctly and I'm getting the most out of my equipment and listening room. It's a new year, maybe it's time to look at this differently than I have in the past. I just need to find someone that I feel confident with to dial in my system. I probably need to find a high end company that designs home theatre systems and start there. I'm in Northern CA so I'll start to do some research on that.

Thanks for all the info.


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## John Williams

Italfra1 said:


> Maybe I'll bite the bullet and have an audio pro come out and dial in my entire system. It would give me piece of mind to know that it's hooked up correctly and I'm getting the most out of my equipment and listening room. It's a new year, maybe it's time to look at this differently than I have in the past. I just need to find someone that I feel confident with to dial in my system. I probably need to find a high end company that designs home theatre systems and start there. I'm in Northern CA so I'll start to do some research on that.


This is where you need to be careful. There are NOT a lot of audio professionals out there, a lot that will tell you they are however and take your money.
That link I posted to HAA website has a calibrator finder. That would be a good start. HAA members have usually spent a bit of money into the research, training, and test equipment involved and take thier work seriously. And with pride. However if there is one close to you, he might be charging more than you want to spend or need.
A big highend company may not be the best bet either. I generally find in talking with these other dealers, they are all about the bottom line. Meaning: least amount of money invested, most amount of money charged, for least amount of work.
A small one man shop could be an issue as well. As a lot are 'fly-by-nights' and are gone next year. Never really having been a good tech at what they were doing.

Conclusion: You are looking for someone who has been doing it a long time. Has test equipment (more than just a sound level meter). Seems to enjoy what he's doing. And takes the time to explain to you what he's doing.


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## subeluvr

John Williams said:


> Conclusion: You are looking for someone who has been doing it a long time. Has test equipment (more than just a sound level meter). Seems to enjoy what he's doing. And takes the time to explain to you what he's doing.


Italfra1,

And when you have found a couple of those... pick one that can hear and has listened to live music rather than a tech who lives and dies by test equipment. I've done very well correcting systems and rooms that have been set up by techies. They have their place but a well trained and well experienced ear has it's advantages when teamed up with the right test equipment.

You've been happy with your Marantz but in today's economy that doesn't mean a brand new Marantz will sound the same. Narrow down your choices to two and get them both in your room. Plug them both in, turn them on, and allow a couple days for them both to cook and then listen.

The important thing is that YOU like the way your system sounds in your room and not how it looks on an RTA or TDS.

The real trick to home audio or home theater is top know WHEN to say WHEN.


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## Italfra1

subeluvr said:


> Italfra1,
> 
> And when you have found a couple of those... pick one that can hear and has listened to live music rather than a tech who lives and dies by test equipment. I've done very well correcting systems and rooms that have been set up by techies. They have their place but a well trained and well experienced ear has it's advantages when teamed up with the right test equipment.
> 
> You've been happy with your Marantz but in today's economy that doesn't mean a brand new Marantz will sound the same. Narrow down your choices to two and get them both in your room. Plug them both in, turn them on, and allow a couple days for them both to cook and then listen.
> 
> The important thing is that YOU like the way your system sounds in your room and not how it looks on an RTA or TDS.
> 
> The real trick to home audio or home theater is top know WHEN to say WHEN.


John & Subeluvr,

I couldn't agree more. Alot of what you are saying is probably what has scared me off in the past. Always the fear of being over charged by someone who really might not know much more than I do about sound. I'll take your advice and do my homework when looking for a sound pro in my area. I wouldn't even consider Geek Squad or something like that. I'll find a pro and do my usual interrogation to make sure I'm confident he's up to my standards. And like you said, someone with real sound experience over a tech who lives and dies by test equipment. I plan on being right there with him the entire time.

Thanks.


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## subeluvr

Italfra1,

I've had more success using recording engineers and musicians than techs although a blend of both works very nicely. The ten most impressive audio systems, from modestly priced to 6 figures, I've ever heard over decade + in the biz were set up with gear and then finished by people who could hear.

An RTA or TDS can't tell the difference between the way a Fender bass and a Rickenbacker sound or a Strat and a Les Paul sound and those are the subtleties you want in audio reproduction not noise and the ash tray walking across the coffee table

Often these forum discussions go off track and get sideways and this one really has. John and I were making an empirical point (at least I was) that the room is a component in the system and should be considered. Some rooms are built to be awful sonically and VERY few are really sonically good. since you're not complaining about BOOMY bass or NASALLY mids or voice, your room doesn't appear to have a gross problem.

You have a room with a system and you like the way it sounds. So far so good. You want-need a new receiver... simple enough.

Based on your preference for B&W over Polk or Klipsch (no offense to either brand) and what you've posted I don't think you need to spend money other than as you wanted, a new receiver and you're more than capable of picking the one that sounds better to you.


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## Shades228

Obviously your budget is going to determine what you do. However even simple things such as rugs, wall decorations (made for acoustic reasons) can do wonders. Most people will hear things but since they don't want to focus on it you don't notice how much it's impacting something until it's really gone. 

Find a good company in your area that has done some installations and then ask for referrals. Most legit companies will do this and usually most people are more than happy to show off their setup to someone. If it sounds good to you then they do good enough work. 

Sensors and calibration tools are great but it's your ear that tells you what is good and what isn't. My whole point was that you might want to get the receiver that has the options you want but doesn't have to be the most expensive and you can spend that other cash in the room making everything sound better.


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## Italfra1

Shades228 said:


> Obviously your budget is going to determine what you do. However even simple things such as rugs, wall decorations (made for acoustic reasons) can do wonders. Most people will hear things but since they don't want to focus on it you don't notice how much it's impacting something until it's really gone.
> 
> Find a good company in your area that has done some installations and then ask for referrals. Most legit companies will do this and usually most people are more than happy to show off their setup to someone. If it sounds good to you then they do good enough work.
> 
> Sensors and calibration tools are great but it's your ear that tells you what is good and what isn't. My whole point was that you might want to get the receiver that has the options you want but doesn't have to be the most expensive and you can spend that other cash in the room making everything sound better.


Sounds like good adive. Personally I've always thought my system sounded great with my old Marantz SR 7500 and I'm well aware that upgrading to the Marantz SR 6006 might not make much of a difference sonically, and I'm fine with that. It has alot of new bells & whistles that my older model didn't have. If sound improves that will be a bonus. I fully understand all the points that everyone has made about the importance of the room, speaker placement, etc. I'll do my research and find a knowledgable audio person to help me fine tune my system.

Being a guitar player and music lover my entire life I'm pretty confident I have a good handle on what I'm looking for. We might have gotton off topic a few times during this thread but that's pretty common and the feedback has been great as always. Thanks.


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## iceturkee

sorry for sounding negative but when did marantz start making relevant audio receivers again? they were among the best in the business in the early to mid 1970's but went way downhill after.


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## CCarncross

iceturkee said:


> sorry for sounding negative but when did marantz start making relevant audio receivers again? they were among the best in the business in the early to mid 1970's but went way downhill after.


Marantz seemed to have made somewhat of a comeback in the last 5 years or so. Although I have the same impression you have, Marantz was the Sh** back in the early to mid 70's. All the adults I knew that were music fanatics back in the day had Marantz receivers, with either Garrard or Dual turntables. Of course the elite had Macintosh, etc..I was a Technics person as a kid, moved on to Pioneer in college years, Yamaha(RX-V2090) after college, and now on to my 3rd Denon. Next step will be to add a moderately expensive used amp(probably a used Rotel RMB-1095) to my feature filled Denon AVR since I just got my Paradigm Studio 60 v.5 this past week.  I have had this smile all week since I hooked up the new mains..


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## iceturkee

My first receiver in 1974 was a marantz! I loved that thing.


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## subeluvr

I go back to Saul's really good stuff... 10b tuner, 7c preamp, and a pair of 8b amps.

I have fond memories of the 2325 receiver... oh the blue lights... made my JBL L100s really rip!


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## wilbur_the_goose

Remember - Marantz now = Denon (which is fine, of course). 

If you need a new receiver, try the Denon AVR-4311. Audyssey XT32 is an AMAZING technology!


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## Papa J

bobukcat said:


> I have an ES series AVR but I relegated it to a secondary role when I found out it clips the video signal through HDMI. I would recommend you check AVS Forum for the model you are considering and get confirmation that they no longer have this "issue" before going that route.
> 
> I replaced it with an Pioneer Elite SC-27 and absolutely love it so I'd suggest you take a look at their current lineup as well.


What does "clips the video signal through HDMI" mean? Is this true of Sony ES series av receivers of today?


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