# HD DVR Harddrives



## Mcmiller519 (Oct 15, 2010)

What are the hard drives Sizes in each of the HD DVRS 20-24


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## dishrich (Apr 23, 2002)

HR20-21/R22 - 320gb (there have been reports of refurbs of these coming back w/500gb drives)
HR22-24 - 500gb


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Some ppl been lucky to get refurb with 1TB or bigger (from prev 'owners').


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## Mcmiller519 (Oct 15, 2010)

Cool thanks guys


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Some ppl been lucky to get refurb with 1TB or bigger (from prev 'owners').


Wow. Really?

I guess the refurb process doesn't include swapping out the HD as a matter of course. That's kind of disturbing.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JonW said:


> Wow. Really?
> 
> I guess the refurb process doesn't include swapping out the HD as a matter of course. That's kind of disturbing.


Their is no "refurb process". They might replace a missing door over the access card slot, but aside from that, I've never seen any sign of them doing much else than wiping the HDD clean. If they can.

Rich


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## ticmxman (Aug 28, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Their is no "refurb process". They might replace a missing door over the access card slot, but aside from that, I've never seen any sign of them doing much else than wiping the HDD clean. If they can.
> 
> Rich


And thats one reason I'm returning the one they just sent me and I bought/leased my own HR24 from Amazon. It is a bummer to loose recordings and while a refurb might be perfectly OK I don't care to gamble. I've always had new DVRs on a UPS and until a storm took out my 5-6 year old HR20 I had no significant problems at all. Knock wood that this continues.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

ticmxman said:


> And thats one reason I'm returning the one they just sent me and I bought/leased my own HR24 from Amazon. It is a bummer to loose recordings and while a refurb might be perfectly OK I don't care to gamble. I've always had new DVRs on a UPS and until a storm took out my 5-6 year old HR20 I had no significant problems at all. Knock wood that this continues.


Thing about the replacements is that they have to have less properly working HRs to use as replacements now than they did a few years ago. They've stopped producing the 20-700s and the whole 21 series and the units that were returned in good shape are probably being used by subs. So, we'll see decreasing numbers of working replacements as time goes by. I think.

Rich


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## DaaQ (Aug 21, 2008)

Fyi there is a "refurb" process. Do you really think all they do is wipe them clean?
The refurbs are more thoroughly tested than the new ones.
There are two refurb facilities in the US.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

DaaQ said:


> Fyi there is a "refurb" process. Do you really think all they do is wipe them clean?
> *The refurbs are more thoroughly tested than the new ones*.
> There are two refurb facilities in the US.


If you've seen the same video of the tour of a refub contractor in southern Cal, then you "may have noticed", there is a screening process as the units comes into the plant. 
Only those flagged as "technical" returns get the "more thoroughly tested than new ones" treatment.
Regretfully not all returns get this treatment, as it takes an additional eight [billable] hours.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

DaaQ said:


> Fyi there is a "refurb" process. Do you really think all they do is wipe them clean?


Absolutely.



> The refurbs are more thoroughly tested than the new ones.
> There are two refurb facilities in the US.


So when you get a replacement that is DOA or won't boot up or won't work with a remote, any remote, or has the front cover dangling off the box, (I could go on and on, but you must get the idea) do you really expect me to believe in a "refurbishing" program?

I'll go partway with *VOS* on this one, and this is one time I have doubts about what he thinks.

I didn't buy six HRs to use as replacements because I trust D*'s refurbishing program. I put out a good bit of money to own those six HRs.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> So when you get a replacement that is DOA or won't boot up or won't work with a remote, any remote, or has the front cover dangling off the box, (I could go on and on, but you must get the idea) do you really expect me to believe in a "refurbishing" program?
> 
> I'll go partway with *VOS* on this one, and this is one time I have doubts about what he thinks.
> 
> ...


I haven't replaced a HR2x [yet], so all that I've gotten were new, but I do know very well about the crap DirecTV was sending out in '06 for the H20s.
Yeah, I had one that couldn't even find the SATs, and the last one they sent "seemed to work", until a year later when I tried to change from HDMI to component and "found" why the POS was returned to be "refurbished" to repair the loss of sync on the video outputs.

I don't think ANY repair system is 100%. In the Air Force, "we tried" damn hard, but sometimes it took more than once. Boy were the aircrews pissed too. :eek2: lol

Now without seeing "the dog and pony show" at the refurb center "first hand", from what I've seen in the video, they strive to make sure units that have gone through the extensive testing are "better than new", for the simple fact that they've put more time and effort into them than the factory ever did. Even this won't be 100%.
Now what "bothers me", are the units that don't get this extensive testing.
They start with a visual inspection/screening and "more than likely" [since this wasn't shown in the video] have the same diagnostic tests done that we can do ourselves from the boot menu. The hard disk tests are most likely the short ones and if everything passes, it moves on to packaging. Who knows what the percentage of these actually had problems? :shrug:


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

P Smith said:


> Some ppl been lucky to get refurb with 1TB or bigger (from prev 'owners').


Yes, occasionally some Directv Customers who have Upgraded their Hard Drive to a 1 Tb or 2 TB Drives have had problem with their DVR and they forgot to take out the Hard Drive they put in and they then sent it back in for a Replacement DVR!!!

Pretty Stupid but I hear it happens!!! :lol:


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

Couple years back I got a replacement R15 from DTV and there was someone's (not test) recordings on the hard drive... so much for the inspection, screening, and refurb process.

Having been in the consumer electronics industry I can tell you that you want to avoid _refurbished_ and _remanufactured_ electronics if you can regardless of what the company tells or promises you unless you want an ulcer and a migraine headache.

One exception would be audiophile level electronics that go back to the factory and your unit is returned to you.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I haven't replaced a HR2x [yet], so all that I've gotten were new, but I do know very well about the crap DirecTV was sending out in '06 for the H20s.
> Yeah, I had one that couldn't even find the SATs, and the last one they sent "seemed to work", until a year later when I tried to change from HDMI to component and "found" why the POS was returned to be "refurbished" to repair the loss of sync on the video outputs.
> 
> I don't think ANY repair system is 100%. In the Air Force, "we tried" damn hard, but sometimes it took more than once. Boy were the aircrews pissed too. :eek2: lol
> ...


I think I've only had a few replacements that weren't new since 2008 and the only one that worked was a 24-500 that I got soon after the 500s were introduced. That one did work, but I doubt if there was anything wrong with it in the first place.

None of the 20-700s I got as replacements worked, so I bought my own on eBay and CL. For the last year or so, any replacements that I've gotten have been new. So, to be perfectly honest, I don't really know if D* has changed anything in the way that they purportedly "refurbish" the HRs. I do see a lot of posts about folks getting replacements that do work.

My question again is: Is there any oversight at the facilities where the "refurbishing" is done? By that, I mean oversight by a D* rep or reps. Having dealt with contractors for years when I was working as the person who was responsible for "oversight" of contractors, I can tell you that without that strict policy of checks and inspections contractors do pretty much what they feel like doing.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

subeluvr said:


> Couple years back I got a replacement R15 from DTV and there was someone's (not test) recordings on the hard drive... so much for the inspection, screening, and refurb process.


I can top that. When I first switched over to HRs from TiVos, I had an installer deliver a "new" 20-700. He was also at my home to realign my dish. I set up the 700 while he was up on the roof and I found a strange zipcode as I was setting it up and found several recorded shows on it. I looked up the zipcode and it was from Staten Island, where the installer was from. Found out that he'd been playing with it and was planning on setting it up and erasing all the stuff on it. He didn't know I could set one up. Pretty funny watching him stutter and stammer and try to talk his way out of that....:lol:



> Having been in the consumer electronics industry I can tell you that you want to avoid _refurbished_ and _remanufactured_ electronics if you can regardless of what the company tells or promises you unless you want an ulcer and a migraine headache.


Yup, I've never purchased anything that was "refurbished". Always scared me. And my experiences with HRs and TiVos has done nothing to make me change my mind. The word "furbished" means "to shine". If you hit a lot of Net dictionaries, some will say "to renovate", but I think that's a new definition.

Rich


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Yup, I've never purchased anything that was "refurbished". Always scared me. And my experiences with HRs and TiVos has done nothing to make me change my mind. The word "furbished" means "to shine". If you hit a lot of Net dictionaries, some will say "to renovate", but I think that's a new definition.


Back in the day we bought REBUILT starters and generators that actually were... now REBUILT means REPAINTED and there's a high profit margin in it for the rebuilders but not so much for the retailers selling that junk


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

subeluvr said:


> Back in the day we bought REBUILT starters and generators that actually were... now REBUILT means REPAINTED and there's a high profit margin in it for the rebuilders but not so much for the retailers selling that junk


And yet, people buy this crap. Never ceases to amaze me.

Rich


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Why have you had so many replacements in 3 years?

I've had anywhere from 4 to 7 DVRs active since 2007 and I've only had one replaced, and that was ten days ago.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

rich584 said:


> And yet, people buy this crap. Never ceases to amaze me.
> 
> Rich


It's really just a matter of how little one is willing to accept for their money.

Americans have become very apathetic as consumers.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> My question again is: Is there any oversight at the facilities where the "refurbishing" is done? By that, I mean oversight by a D* rep or reps. Having dealt with contractors for years when I was working as the person who was responsible for "oversight" of contractors, I can tell you that without that strict policy of checks and inspections contractors do pretty much what they feel like doing.
> 
> Rich





subeluvr said:


> Back in the day we bought REBUILT starters and generators that actually were... now REBUILT means REPAINTED and there's a high profit margin in it for the rebuilders but not so much for the retailers selling that junk


Two posters & topics, but I wanted to address them both.
Rich, the refur plant does have the ability and processes in place. They get paid more to test more, per unit, which suggests they have no reason to shortcut the process.
As for "checks & inspections", I doubt there is anything more than the "dog & pony" show for a visit from DirecTV.
If the refurbing was a "fixed price" contract, all bets would be off, but it doesn't seem to be from the video.

Sub, "Back in the day" I too bought rebuilt starters & generators. Now this was directly those that did the work. When I had one that didn't work, returned it personally, and stayed there until it was "proved defective" and repaired. It at first passed "their testing", and when I added the same length of wire that the car had, it failed in front of "the boss", who then told them what to replace.
The other side: gas stations that repaint a used battery and sold it for "rebuilt" to a traveler who they'll never see again [aka: "taillight guarantee", where it is as long as you can see their taillights].


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

richierich said:


> Yes, occasionally some Directv Customers who have Upgraded their Hard Drive to a 1 Tb or 2 TB Drives have had problem with their DVR and they forgot to take out the Hard Drive they put in and they then sent it back in for a Replacement DVR!!!
> 
> Pretty Stupid but I hear it happens!!! :lol:


I can believe it! We used to do refurbing on portable DVD players for someone that would send us boxes of them to be fixed. We could get from them any parts needed excluding cosmetic parts. Mainboards, DVDRoms etc.

Amazing how many DVDS we found in them, Non returnable of course since it was just bare units, no customer info and the place that sent them to us didn't even track serial numbers.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> Back in the day we bought REBUILT starters and generators that actually were... now REBUILT means REPAINTED and there's a high profit margin in it for the rebuilders but not so much for the retailers selling that junk


I had to get a Alternator repaired some years back. The first rebuilt unit lasted approx 10 days past the 60 day warranty. I had to remove and replace too.

Then I found a local shop. He pulled it off opened it up and replaced everything that was bad. Front and rear bearings. Front housing has gone bad. Diodes, etc.

When he put it back about the only parts he had reused was the rear housing and a couple of other little parts. I was there while he did it.

Cost the second time was less than the first rebuilt and I didn't have to get my hands dirty.

Factory rebuilt.... I have a little shed out back of the house, that can be my factory.

Fresh baked bread in the supermarket. True fresh baked not fresh made. For example they pull the hard rolls out of the box in the freezer, Then defrost and proof and bake.

Fresh baked pies. Same type of frozen pie you could buy from the freezer case.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The other side: gas stations that repaint a used battery and sold it for "rebuilt" to a traveler who they'll never see again [aka: "taillight guarantee", where it is as long as you can see their taillights].


Down in Newark they used to sell rebuilt batteries. All they did was drain the old acid and refill. The lead plates inside were still worn out.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> ... the refur plant does have the ability and processes in place. They get paid more to test more, per unit, which suggests they have no reason to shortcut the process.
> As for "checks & inspections", I doubt there is anything more than the "dog & pony" show for a visit from DirecTV.
> If the refurbing was a "fixed price" contract, all bets would be off, but it doesn't seem to be from the video.


Paid more to test more but still have to meet a units per day quota. More profitable to test less, get paid less, and get the units per day WAY up as the complaints from those who get problematic refurbs bears out.



veryoldschool said:


> The other side: gas stations that repaint a used battery and sold it for "rebuilt" to a traveler who they'll never see again [aka: "taillight guarantee", where it is as long as you can see their taillights].


Maybe in your neck of the woods. Where I grew up that might happen once... only once.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Two posters & topics, but I wanted to address them both.
> Rich, the refur plant does have the ability and processes in place. They get paid more to test more, per unit, which suggests they have no reason to shortcut the process.
> As for "checks & inspections", I doubt there is anything more than the "dog & pony" show for a visit from DirecTV.
> If the refurbing was a "fixed price" contract, all bets would be off, but it doesn't seem to be from the video.


Again, without oversight, how would anyone know what they are doing? As I said, I do see less complaints lately about replacements. I haven't had a used receiver sent to me for quite awhile. And I've had problems with the new ones. Overall, I'm much more satisfied than I was a few years ago.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> Paid more to test more but still have to meet a units per day quota. More profitable to test less, get paid less, and get the units per day WAY up as the complaints from those who get problematic refurbs bears out.


You're making assumptions here that aren't known. Maybe these would be different after viewing the video, or maybe you have seen it, and saw something I didn't. :shrug:

The lengthy testing, by it's nature, doesn't look to have a "quicker turn time" forced or not.
The "fast track" inspections, may easily get shortened for "production reasons", but by its nature, would barely find a defect even if it fell on their foot!



rich584 said:


> Again, without oversight, how would anyone know what they are doing? As I said, I do see less complaints lately about replacements. I haven't had a used receiver sent to me for quite awhile. And I've had problems with the new ones. Overall, I'm much more satisfied than I was a few years ago.
> 
> Rich


Guess it's time for me to quit kicking this can around. I've been involved with a lot of repairing and very familiar with how it can be done well and not.
I see flaws in the current process, see improvements in it too.

I'm reading a lot of posts, which may or may not come from those that have any "informed experience", so I'll just let this go, and not kick it around anymore.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> You're making assumptions here that aren't known. Maybe these would be different after viewing the video, or maybe you have seen it, and saw something I didn't. :shrug:
> 
> The lengthy testing, by it's nature, doesn't look to have a "quicker turn time" forced or not.
> The "fast track" inspections, may easily get shortened for "production reasons", but by its nature, would barely find a defect even if it fell on their foot!


You're making assumptions about my knowledge and experience in this exact field that you don't and can't know. I don't need to see a video because I've seen remanufacturing centers with my own eyes and contracted them.

In theory and on paper the refurb process works... but, as long as there is notable feedback from customers citing problems with refurbs the process is significantly flawed.



veryoldschool said:


> Guess it's time for me to quit kicking this can around.


I agree cause the more you kick the can around the less dents will get repaired when the can is remanufactured :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> You're making assumptions about my knowledge and experience in this exact field that you don't and can't know. I don't need to see a video because I've seen remanufacturing centers with my own eyes and contracted them.


Actually I disagree with this. I too have extensive knowledge & experience, so viewing the video was informative, as to the strong & weak points in their processes. While it wasn't as good as if I'd been there, "I'd say" I'm more informed than someone that "doesn't need to see a video", regardless of what your experience is, unless you've dealt with this specific company yourself earlier, and you know who they are how? 

I'm not trying to "pee on you" here, but merely to suggest making conclusions that may only be partially informed, may not be the best.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm not trying to "pee on you" here, but merely to suggest making conclusions that may only be partially informed, may not be the best.


In my experience the incidence of customer complaints has defined the efficiency and competency of the remanufacturing company and their procedures. There is nothing unique about the company doing DTVs refurbs. The level of quality control and competence is set by the price per unit in that industry.

The business model in consumer electronics ( is driven by profit structure and has been for quite a while) is to cut down on QC cost and deal with DOA and infant mortality through the warranty process. It's more cost effective for companies to do it that way and the losers are the consumers. As long as consumers will accept that treatment they will continue to get it.

Seems like I'm feeling something on my leg... maybe it's raining.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> In my experience the incidence of customer complaints has defined the efficiency and competency of the remanufacturing company and their procedures. There is nothing unique about the company doing DTVs refurbs. The level of quality control and competence is set by the price per unit in that industry.
> 
> The business model in consumer electronics ( is driven by profit structure and has been for quite a while) is to cut down on QC cost and deal with DOA and infant mortality through the warranty process. It's more cost effective for companies to do it that way and the losers are the consumers. As long as consumers will accept that treatment they will continue to get it.
> 
> Seems like I'm feeling something on my leg... maybe it's raining.


Your "experience" is informed, since on this level of devices, "cost" is everything.
As they used to say: "you can't inspect [QC] quality into a product".
You can improve the training, testing, processes, etc., and increase the quality of the product.

What I've been taking issue with is the logic that seems to be:
Knowing everything about A & B, and nothing about C, but since A, B, & C are in the same group, there isn't anything more needed, to know everything about C.

Your experience with starters & generators, could be A & B, while mine was C.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Guess it's time for me to quit kicking this can around. I've been involved with a lot of repairing and very familiar with how it can be done well and not.
> I see flaws in the current process, see improvements in it too.
> 
> I'm reading a lot of posts, which may or may not come from those that have any "informed experience", so I'll just let this go, and not kick it around anymore.


Yeah, I'm sick of talking about this, too. We've been beating this subject to death for years now.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Yeah, I'm sick of talking about this, too. We've been beating this subject to death for years now.
> 
> Rich


And "the funny thing" here is...
I'm still fairly critical of their whole process, as I can see where they've improved, yet see a gaping hole/flaw in it still too. :nono:


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> And "the funny thing" here is...
> I'm still fairly critical of their whole process, as I can see where they've improved, yet see a gaping hole/flaw in it still too. :nono:


There's no _funny thing_ about waiting for a replacement receiver to arrive only to have it arrive DOA or or die shortly after putting it in service, or it having other problems because DTV is optimizing profit (at it's customer's expense) by cutting corners in it's contractor's refurb procedures.

So VOS, is the glass half full, half empty, or half remanufactured?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> So VOS, is the glass half full, half empty, or half remanufactured?


Might depend on your view of "back in the day".
Mine was nearly 50 years ago, when a factory rebuilt bosch starter or generator, was just as good as new, but cost a third the price. "Quality labor" was cheap, and everything was designed to be "fixed".
Fast forward [a lot :lol:] and almost nothing is made to be fixed. Labor [here] ain't cheap, and if you're processing literally millions of units, even a 1% defect rate could mean tens of thousands of defective units.

DirecTV isn't the villain here, or at least not the only one.
GM back in the mid eighties had the turbo Buick, which the turbo maker told them would have a 20% failure rate if changes to the oiling passages in the block weren't made. The costs to retool the block, GM decided cost more that what it would to "warranty" the failures, so that's how it was done. 
I'm afraid we'd be paying thousands for a DVR to be built & repairable to the level that I would be happy with.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Might depend on your view of "back in the day".
> Mine was nearly 50 years ago, when a factory rebuilt bosch starter or generator, was just as good as new, but cost a third the price. "Quality labor" was cheap, and everything was designed to be "fixed".
> Fast forward [a lot :lol:] and almost nothing is made to be fixed. Labor [here] ain't cheap, and if you're processing literally millions of units, even a 1% defect rate could mean tens of thousands of defective units.
> 
> ...


The back in the day was a quick analogy that ended posts ago... we're discussing the here and now.

DTV is not the only bad company... we're using DTV because that's the forum we're in. DTV is no worse than the other companies using the same business model. There's a reason that HP is bailing on PCs and Apple continues to make trainloads of money selling them. The reason is design, QC, low failure rate, and the profits reaped from that philosophy. That success can't me had while trying to sell PCs at cost and trying to make up the profit with volume as IBM realized quite a while ago.

And we're not talking about DTV supplying a bulletproof DVR. We're talking about competent refurbishing of failed units and not having their customers waste their time being paying QC inspectors for the refurb contractor.

I agree with Rich... let's put this thread to bed.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Good, as this can was kicked to death some time ago.

IBM, HP, Apple, all did well and made very good products when their profit/markup is/was good on each item.
HP's core used to be test equipment, which was the gold standard and priced accordingly.

Trying to do things "on the cheap", seems to only work when you can manufacture the item cheap enough as to replace them and scrap the defective ones, much like cell phones.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> IBM, HP, Apple, all did well and made very good products when their profit/markup is/was good on each item.


And Apple is still making money by selling good products with an amzingly low failure rate where IBM and now HP bailed big time on PCs.



veryoldschool said:


> HP's core used to be test equipment, which was the gold standard and priced accordingly.


Get into this century VOS... stay away from the wayback machine... HP's core hasn't been test equipment for quite a while.



veryoldschool said:


> Trying to do things "on the cheap", seems to only work when you can manufacture the item cheap enough as to replace them and scrap the defective ones, much like cell phones.


As Dish and DTV are doing... but, instead of scrapping the defective ones they send them out as refurbs which is EXACTLY what we have been discussing.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

DaaQ said:


> Fyi there is a "refurb" process. Do you really think all they do is wipe them clean?
> The refurbs are more thoroughly tested than the new ones.
> There are two refurb facilities in the US.


Glad you started this mess? Where'd you go when the heat was on? If we didn't have very good reasons to say the things we've said about the "refurbishing" process we would never have said them in the first place. Got any more off the wall comments?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

rich584 said:


> Glad you started this mess? Where'd you go when the heat was on? If we didn't have very good reasons to say the things we've said about the "refurbishing" process we would never have said them in the first place. Got any more off the wall comments?


Perhaps he is working there and proud of that.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> And Apple is still making money by selling good products with an amzingly low failure rate....
> Get into this century VOS...
> As Dish and DTV are doing... but, instead of scrapping the defective ones they send them out as refurbs which is EXACTLY what we have been discussing.


Staying "in this century", wasn't Apple close to going down the tubes? Hasn't their comeback been due to the "iProducts"?
I knew someone who had a problem with their Mac. Even though it was out of warranty, Apple repaired it under warranty. Good customer service. In the paperwork that came with the return was the invoice, which listed an $800 mainboard. I'd hate to have to pay for a repair that was handled out of warranty. :eek2:

Now getting back to DirecTV:
They can't follow the cell phone model of scrapping all returns because not every return is due to a customer complaint.
Some come from accounts being closed. 
Some come from upgrades.
Then there are those pulled out of service because of a problem.

You can ***** & moan that DirecTV should do things like Apple, but the customers would have to buy the hardware. I remember doing this with a Sony DirecTV HD receiver and it wasn't "an Apple experience" by any means. :nono:

Since I did take the time to watch the video tour of a repair center, I might be able to critique it better than someone who hasn't.

Their incoming screening process looks to be their major weakness.
I would have liked to see much more detail of this process.

In the Air Force, every unit pulled out of service was tagged with a code and description of why. Sometimes these units came back with a "could not duplicate" [defect] and would go back in service without repeating the problem. Sometimes these would be pulled again for the same problem. This is just the nature of working with "systems", instead of a stand alone device.

If all DirecTV receivers were tagged [either with a hard copy or electronically] with the reason for return, then the processing through the repair center looks like it could be more affective.
Receivers returned as "no defect", could go through the "short testing" process, while those returned with a defect listed, would go through the extended testing AND have this focused on the defect listed.

This still wouldn't yield 100%, but from my own experiences could make a big improvement.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Glad you started this mess? Where'd you go when the heat was on? If we didn't have very good reasons to say the things we've said about the "refurbishing" process we would never have said them in the first place. Got any more off the wall comments?





P Smith said:


> Perhaps he is working there and proud of that.


I think that post was where I started in this thread.
I'd also guess the poster is someone [an installer] who watched the March video of the tour of the Southern Cal repair center.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Staying "in this century", wasn't Apple close to going down the tubes? Hasn't their comeback been due to the "iProducts"?
> I knew someone who had a problem with their Mac. Even though it was out of warranty, Apple repaired it under warranty. Good customer service. In the paperwork that came with the return was the invoice, which listed an $800 mainboard. I'd hate to have to pay for a repair that was handled out of warranty. :eek2:
> 
> Now getting back to DirecTV:
> ...


Your holy video is not unique. The southern Cal refurb facility operates pretty much like every other one in the industry. It is apparent to anyone with actual experience in consumer electronics refurb exactly what is going on without a video to watch.

How to correct the refurb process is simple... it's diagnostics and electronics 101.

It is that the process has not been corrected or improved that is the point of discussion.

And that $800 out of warranty gratis repair from Apple... is not an uncommon occurrence even though a mainboard failure is a rare occurrence. Think HP and Dell will treat you the same way?

It's kinda fun debating with you but as long as you continue to argue Apples and oranges and alter the space-time continuum this is a waste of my time.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> It's kinda fun debating with you.


I'm finding this rather pointless.
I've critiqued the process from a semi informed position.
You, on the other hand, seem to just be posting your opinion from experience [though maybe very good] of how others have done it.
If there was an apples and oranges here, it seems to be coming from your end.
How much of your opinion comes directly from experience with DirecTV?
How many bad receivers have you received?

Never mind, this was rhetorical and lost all interest.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Perhaps he is working there and proud of that.


Certainly not proud enough to continue to defend his viewpoint. But the Internet's anonymity allows for acts...well, you know.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm finding this rather pointless.
> I've critiqued the process from a semi informed position.
> You, on the other hand, seem to just be posting your opinion from experience [though maybe very good] of how others have done it.
> If there was an apples and oranges here, it seems to be coming from your end.
> ...


All this caused by someone who ran and hid...:nono2:

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Certainly not proud enough to continue to defend his viewpoint. But the Internet's anonymity allows for acts...well, you know.
> 
> Rich





rich584 said:


> All this caused by someone who ran and hid...:nono2:
> 
> Rich


I'm not sure we should be too hard on the poster. 
He/she might feel like a sheep surrounded by a pack of wolves. :lol: 
"Better than new", came straight out of the dog & pony show video, which in context, was for techs to make improvements on their end for better customer satisfaction.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm not sure we should be too hard on the poster.
> He/she might feel like a sheep surrounded by a pack of wolves. :lol:
> "Better than new", came straight out of the dog & pony show video, which in context, was for techs to make improvements on their end for better customer satisfaction.


Still. He could have said more than what he did and defended his comments. Not that I wanted to get embroiled in that argument that's been going on for far too long. I've been trying not to comment on that subject and the other subjects such as the 100 series of HRs and they just keep popping up. Did you see the post about why I had so many problems and had to have so many HRs replaced? Asked and answered so many times I didn't even comment on it. There have gotta be more interesting topics to talk about.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Did you see the post about why I had so many problems and had to have so many HRs replaced? Asked and answered so many times I didn't even comment on it. There have gotta be more interesting topics to talk about.
> 
> Rich


I've known you a long time now, and read a lot of your posts, but may have missed a lot of them too.
Who would have thought that a sticker saying _Made in Mexico_ from an old Tivo manufacturer, would be a sign of quality. :eek2: Yet I've got two that have been in daily service for just short of 5 years and still going strong.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I've known you a long time now, and read a lot of your posts, but may have missed a lot of them too.
> Who would have thought that a sticker saying _Made in Mexico_ from an old Tivo manufacturer, would be a sign of quality. :eek2: Yet I've got two that have been in daily service for just short of 5 years and still going strong.


Haven't looked at my 20-700s for a while, but I think a couple of them are Mexican. But the Chinese units work well too.

When I was having problems with my Internet service a Cablevision CSR tried to talk me into switching to CV for TV and phone along with my cable modem. Told him that I have twelve dual tuner HD DVRs and asked him how much a month it would cost me for 24 tuners using their single tuner DVRs. I think he's still adding up the total cost....:lol: Probably in excess of $300 a month just for the DVRs.

Gotta love the folks at Cablevision, they can't fix their Net problems and still have the nerve to try to talk you into TV and phone service. Finally got the Net running again and it's supposed to be 50 down. I haven't seen anything higher than 32 down. Just checked, 32.

Rich


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

Has anybody here put a 2.5 TB in a HD-DVR.

I see them advertised with 2 TB. I was wondering about 2.5 TB?


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

les_garten said:


> Has anybody here put a 2.5 TB in a HD-DVR.
> 
> I see them advertised with 2 TB. I was wondering about 2.5 TB?


The Kernel Limitation is 2 TBs and others have tried but as I have stated many times before with knowledge from Directv, 2 TB is the Limitation until they change it and I doubt they will ever change it because of performance considerations unless they Optimize Code and make processing faster or with a faster CPU and More RAM!!!

The New HD GUI could facillitate some of this but who knows!!!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

richierich said:


> The Kernel Limitation is 2 TBs and others have tried but as I have stated many times before with knowledge from Directv, 2 TB is the Limitation until they change it and I doubt they will ever change it because of performance considerations unless they Optimize Code and make processing faster or with a faster CPU and More RAM!!!
> 
> The New HD GUI could facillitate some of this but who knows!!!


We had a member try a 3TB drive a few months ago. Didn't work, the 2.5 won't work.

Rich


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

There is should be sticky thread or better a forum: "*Ask Rich584 about DVR drives*".


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

Thanx for the drive info guys.

I ordered a SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 HD204UI 2TB 

Anybody had any experience with that drive in a HD-DVR?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

les_garten said:


> Thanx for the drive info guys.
> 
> I ordered a SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 HD204UI 2TB
> 
> Anybody had any experience with that drive in a HD-DVR?


Search inside of those two threads:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=148760&highlight=HD204UI
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92029&highlight=HD204UI


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

les_garten said:


> Thanx for the drive info guys.
> 
> I ordered a SAMSUNG EcoGreen F4 HD204UI 2TB
> 
> Anybody had any experience with that drive in a HD-DVR?


I've never had any good experiences with Samsung drives. We recommend WD drives for the HRs.

Rich


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

rich584 said:


> I've never had any good experiences with Samsung drives. We recommend WD drives for the HRs.
> 
> Rich


Hey, Thanx for the Feddback!

I've been installing HD's since the 10MB days circa 1985. I've seen ups and downs for all the manufactures. WD was my Goto drive for a long time. But I would say they have been disappointing "somewhat" in the last 5 years or so.

I have a lot of Sammy and Hitachi drives. I used to like the IBM branded drives as well.

If you look at Newegg for the reviews of that Samsung, you'll see why I picked it. The WD numbers for a lot of the other drives in the same price range are lower. I usually add the 4 and 5 egg ratings and then factor in the 3's as well. 87% of over 1000 purchases gave that drive 3 or higher with most 4's or 5's.

To each their own of course, but over the last few years I have not had a single Samsung failure. I always do a lot of reading on most drives before I buy them.

I have a warm spot for WD from past performance, but because current performance is not like the past, Sammy has been getting my drive purchases.

Also WD making their non-enterprise drives non RAID capable kinda broke them for me.

Thanx for the input just the same. I had been reading the Sammy "knocks" here as well. Having installed drives for now approaching 30 years... I've lost my emotional attachments to brand names.

I'm not saying I won't buy WD, just that when I hit the reviews of the Sammy and the various WD's, I picked the Sammy based solely on track record.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I have 6 WD20EADS 2 TB Drives and one WD10EADS 1 TB Drive on my 7 DVRs and I have not experienced a single problem with any of them so that is my take on WD!!!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

les_garten said:


> ...
> Also WD making their non-enterprise drives non RAID capable kinda broke them for me.
> ...


Could you elaborate, please. 
I'm not in server administration last years, but before that a difference was MTBF and sustain 24/7/365.
Ppl using WD consumer grade drives in home/small business servers with RAID-0/1/5 and some 10.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

les_garten said:


> Hey, Thanx for the Feddback!
> 
> I've been installing HD's since the 10MB days circa 1985. I've seen ups and downs for all the manufactures. WD was my Goto drive for a long time. But I would say they have been disappointing "somewhat" in the last 5 years or so.
> 
> ...


All we really talk about or recommend lately, the past couple years, are WDs because they just work well with the HRs. For the first couple years after the HRs were introduced, the Seagates were a very good choice, but that stopped rather suddenly and the WDs became the HDDs of choice.

I read the reviews too and I've also read every post for years about external or larger internal drives for the HRs and the WDs are, at this moment in time, the most reliable HDDs in or on the HRs. But all we talk about on this part of the forum are HRs. And with the HRs, specifically, the WDs are the choice for most of us.

Rich


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

"les_garten" said:


> I'm not saying I won't buy WD, just that when I hit the reviews of the Sammy and the various WD's, I picked the Sammy based solely on track record.


Guess you'll be buying Seagate drives then. Samsung sold to Seagate, Hitachi to WD. And then there were two (I don't count Toshiba here).


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

P Smith said:


> Could you elaborate, please.
> I'm not in server administration last years, but before that a difference was MTBF and sustain 24/7/365.
> Ppl using WD consumer grade drives in home/small business servers with RAID-0/1/5 and some 10.


Well known WD problem.

I found out about it form numerous drive models that would not work in a RAID array.

When WD found out people were hacking the TLER settings in the drive BIOS to fix the setting that WD made non-functional on purpose, they shut that down.

http://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1397/~/difference-between-desktop-edition-and-raid-(enterprise)-edition-drives


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

dpeters11 said:


> Guess you'll be buying Seagate drives then. Samsung sold to Seagate, Hitachi to WD. And then there were two (I don't count Toshiba here).


I Tried to make this clear.

I don't care whose name is on it if it performs well and it is reliable.

I looked at the WD drives first for my HD-DVR, they just don't seem to cut it in reliability. They're not bad, they just aren't the top to me in this price bracket AND for this purpose.

This is not personal, it's business.

That's really all I have to say on that matter. Like I said, to each his own.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

les_garten said:


> Well known WD problem.
> 
> I found out about it form numerous drive models that would not work in a RAID array.
> 
> ...


Got it !

Basically - *Don't use WD Caviar (any color) in any RAID config at home/business*.


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

P Smith said:


> Got it !
> 
> Basically - *Don't use WD Caviar (any color) in any RAID config at home/business*.


The other take home is that this was a setting in the BIOS that WD had made to intentionally make their drives fail as a RAID array. Clever folksout there figured it out and used HD BIOS tools to adjust this back to being like the Enterprise drives, and when WD found out, I don't remember exactly what they did, but it was to effectively lock this down in the BIOS.

The theory is that WD did this to force sales of their RE line, much more expensive. In the past, you could certainly use their desktop drives as RAID arrays.

So, ipso facto I quit using them a few years ago in a "Cheap" RAID array. When the low end drives are good in reliability, I buy them. But they haven't been passing that test in recent years for me. By trade I am a Data Engineer, so I buy what works. It was a hard and measured move for me to start buying Samsung drives and switch from WD. It was un-natural because I had used WD's for decades. I would advise have an open mind to HD selection. All these companies have had ups and downs. Believe it or not Seagate used to be on top. I remember a time around the mid 2000's you couldn't have given me a WD drive. Not to mention Quantum, Micropolis, IBM, Maxtor, and the rest.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Remember Conner too ? I have one in my pile ...


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> Guess you'll be buying Seagate drives then. Samsung sold to Seagate, Hitachi to WD. And then there were two (I don't count Toshiba here).


Samsung and Hitachi were the best, Seagate and WD were the worst. These sales happened in the wrong direction.

But any hard drive is capable of failing prematurely or lasting 20 years.

I can't wait for SSDs to become more affordable.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

les_garten said:


> The other take home is that this was a setting in the BIOS that WD had made to intentionally make their drives fail as a RAID array. Clever folksout there figured it out and used HD BIOS tools to adjust this back to being like the Enterprise drives, and when WD found out, I don't remember exactly what they did, but it was to effectively lock this down in the BIOS.
> 
> The theory is that WD did this to force sales of their RE line, much more expensive. In the past, you could certainly use their desktop drives as RAID arrays.


I'm glad I had nothing to do with that.  Not at all.  

As you have figured out, there is no difference between the various hard drive "editions" within a company except for price, warranty, and a few totally unnecessary tweaks in the hard drive's firmware.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Remember Conner too ? I have one in my pile ...


I used to have one, and had a Micropolis. I may have a Quantum Bigfoot somewhere.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Used those big SCSI Micropolis in RAIDiiiON box early 90s, server's storage.


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

I used to have one of these. It was given to me around 1997 by a guy who worked at Lockheed Martin. The hard drive is off to the right in that Icebox looking thing. In the top of it was an 8 inch Floppy. The monitor was fixed to the base and was 17". The big vertical box to the left side was the expansion slots. The memory boards and the Video card were in there. The video card was like 19"x19" or so.

The hard drive took I swear 10 minutes to spin up. Sounded like a jet engine on a slow wind up. You usually turned this thing on and went and ate breakfast or lunch while it spun up and booted.

The Hard drive weighed about 50 pounds!

It was "repossessed" by Lockheed from me in 2000 because it had some programming on it that had been lost except for that copy relating to the Avionics of the F-22.

I had forgot about the Connors. I still have a IBM PC from about 1982 or so out in the garage. It has a 10 MB HD in it. I have not run it since 2000. Makes a nice paper weight, it will hold down a lot of paper! I may open it up since I don't remember a lot about it now that my curiosity has been renewed in vintage HDs.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> Guess you'll be buying Seagate drives then. Samsung sold to Seagate, Hitachi to WD. And then there were two (I don't count Toshiba here).


I remember Seagate buying someone out of the HDD business last year, I think. Was that Samsung?

Rich


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

rich584 said:


> I remember Seagate buying someone out of the HDD business last year, I think. Was that Samsung?
> 
> Rich


Eeeehhhh ... 
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2011/04/19/seagate-samsung-deal-pros-and-cons/


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I remember Seagate buying someone out of the HDD business last year, I think. Was that Samsung?
> 
> Rich


I think that was announced this April. The last merger they did was Maxtor. I think Seagate has gotten a lot more through mergers than WD (mostly via Maxtor), the only thing they've acquired is Hitachi's drive business and a company called Tandon in the 80s.

Wikipedia has a chart of acquisitions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_hard_disk_manufacturers

Most of the other companies either left the business or went bankrupt. There's just not much profit in consumer hard drives.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Eeeehhhh ...
> http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2011/04/19/seagate-samsung-deal-pros-and-cons/


OK, that was in April of this year, who did they buy out last year?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> I think that was announced this April. The last merger they did was Maxtor. I think Seagate has gotten a lot more through mergers than WD (mostly via Maxtor), the only thing they've acquired is Hitachi's drive business and a company called Tandon in the 80s.
> 
> Wikipedia has a chart of acquisitions:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_hard_disk_manufacturers
> ...


Yup, that was Maxtor I was thinking of. Damn near drove me nuts trying to remember. Thanx.

Rich


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

dpeters11 said:


> Wikipedia has a chart of acquisitions:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_hard_disk_manufacturers
> 
> .


That was a fun rehash of history.

Thanx!


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

And now Sherman, step into the _wayback_ machine...

For quite a while the combo to have was a Maxtor 8760S (_cinder block_ as it was known and either an Adaptec 1742 EISA or a WD-7000 SCSI controller. Only we really old guys will even know that hardware.


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

subeluvr said:


> And now Sherman, step into the _wayback_ machine...
> 
> For quite a while the combo to have was a Maxtor 8760S (_cinder block_ as it was known and either an Adaptec 1742 EISA or a WD-7000 SCSI controller. Only we really old guys will even know that hardware.


You're forgetting ESDI perhaps, or maybe RLL, or MFM?

This game is fun and anybody can play!


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

les_garten said:


> You're forgetting ESDI perhaps, or maybe RLL, or MFM?
> 
> This game is fun and anybody can play!


Real men run SCSI... and still do.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Who ? Not me for sure . It was ST-506 - with two cables per drive, not MFM/RLL (those was methods encoding)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Small_Disk_Interface


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

subeluvr said:


> Real men run SCSI... and still do.


I can't forgive Apple when they drop it, damn !


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## les_garten (Aug 30, 2011)

P Smith said:


> Who ? Not me for sure . It was ST-506 - with two cables per drive, not MFM/RLL (those was methods encoding)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Small_Disk_Interface


I think my Ol' IBM(The Garage Dweller) has a ST-412 in it.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

On Wiki about ST-506:


> The similar (but more expensive) 10 MB ST-412 was introduced in late 1981. Both used MFM encoding (already widely used in disk drives). A subsequent extension of the ST-412 used RLL for a 50% boost in capacity and bit rate.


But I don't recall the term ...


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

And then there were the 8" floppy drives...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Oh, that is antic one - made in Bulgaria !


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