# HD DVR Content Archiving? How Important Is It to You?



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

About 24 months ago, a poll was taken of DBSTalkers that indicated the desire for being able to archive your HD DVR recordings to some form of external media - a hard drive, a computer, etc.

With many more DirecTV customers now having DVRs than back in 2009, as well as their own inventories of recordings - it would be interesting to see your thoughts.

On a scale of 1-5, with 1 being extremely important and 5 being no interest, please vote. Thank you.


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## dmricke (Dec 15, 2006)

1

This is something I would definitely use.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

I would love the option, should have been able to do so all along.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

1

~Alan


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

*1!!!!*

Oh yea. My mother has a R22-100 and only records in SD but wants to keep EVERYTHING. Since alot isn't available on DVD. The ability to archive the content so it could be watched even if only on a DirecTV receiver. So content can be transferred from DVR to DVR if a unit fails.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> About 24 months ago, a poll was taken of DBSTalkers that indicated the desire for being able to archive your HD DVR recordings to some form of external media - a hard drive, a computer, etc.
> 
> With many more DirecTV customers now having DVRs than back in 2009, as well as their own inventories of recordings - it would be interesting to see your thoughts.
> 
> On a scale of 1-5, with 1 being extremely important and 5 being no interest, please vote. Thank you.


Is this a trick question? Of course the answer is 1.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

1

If you have ever lost recordings you know how painful it is so it would be nice to be able to retrieve your backup recordings to put on your new hard drive.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I think I voted wrong (I picked extremely).

I would be extremely interested in sending shows, etc. to a computer or other device for viewing (i.e. Nomad), but I wouldn't archive it.

Once watched, it's gone.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

I never want to watch something twice so it's not important to me. However, a few times a buddy asked me for something he missed. Then, it becomes a nuisance to figure out a convenient way to help.


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## wmb (Dec 18, 2008)

There are some things that I would like to keep long term... mostly things like concerts and a few movies. 

Not everything is worthy of archiving.


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## Go Beavs (Nov 18, 2008)

Assuming the content would be playable on a replacement DVR (if the leased unit's HD failed), I think it would convince me to finally purchace a large eSATA drive for DVR storage....

Right now, I'd hate to have a 1TB drive full of content die on me and lose all of that stuff. I guess I feel better if I don't have it to begin with. 

Yup, I'd use it.


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## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

ONE. :icon_band


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

So-So, I can't think of much I would archive but I might use it...or not. 

Mike


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

xmguy said:


> *1!!!!*
> 
> Oh yea. My mother has a R22-100 and only records in SD but wants to keep EVERYTHING. Since alot isn't available on DVD. The ability to archive the content so it could be watched even if only on a DirecTV receiver. So content can be transferred from DVR to DVR if a unit fails.


We must be related. Every time I go to my parents, she always has at most 97 percent free, with 100+ scrapbooking shows etc. Good thing Dad has no interest in the DVR.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

*- 5 -*

Call me an oddball, but my DVR use pattern is record, watch, delete, record, watch, delete, record, watch, delete...

I have no desire or 'need' to "archive" movies or tv programs once I've viewed them. What's the point ? :scratch: If I ever want to see something again, there's Netflix and the Internet.

Also, I used to buy the occasional DVD, and amassed a collection of about 50 titles, but no more. Except for the occasional hard-to-find Time/Life documentary, I expect I'll no longer buy physical media.*

*Counting each boxed set as one. I will, however, complete my collection of the entire "24" tv series.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Go Beavs said:


> *Assuming the content would be playable on a replacement DVR (if the leased unit's HD failed), *I think it would convince me to finally purchace a large eSATA drive for DVR storage....
> 
> Right now, I'd hate to have a 1TB drive full of content die on me and lose all of that stuff. I guess I feel better if I don't have it to begin with.
> 
> Yup, I'd use it.


I'd agree with the above bold and give a "1" in that circumstance. If it's strictly an archive of a single DVR ( and cannot be transfered to a replacement DVR) I'd say a "5" as I watch and delete. In any case the ability to "archive" should include the ability to back up all DVR settings and S/L's.


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

Nick said:


> Call me an oddball.
> 
> Also, I used to buy the occasional DVD.


Oddball....dvd so 2004. :lol:


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## Hotscot (Sep 25, 2008)

As in saving on the drive forever or sending out to a recording device in HD?


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## Karen (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't have any use for it, but I hope the ones who want it will get it.


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## Wisegoat (Aug 17, 2006)

I voted 1, but will tell everyone not to hold their breath. The content owners will NEVER let this happen. If we could do this, the entire DVD sales portion of where they get their money will disappear. This is why we have all of the DRM issues. Content owners want you to pay everytime you watch a show. They HATE DVR's with a passion. Think of all of the times you have bought music or movies in a newer format (I own Vinyl, Cassette, CD and MP3 versions of tons of music and VHS, DVD and Blu-Ray versions of movies). This is how they make money and will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever let this happen.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Wisegoat said:


> ...The content owners will NEVER let this happen...





Wisegoat said:


> ...This is how they make money and will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever let this happen....


Dish does this now :shrug:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nick said:


> Call me an oddball, but my DVR use pattern is record, watch, delete, record, watch, delete, record, watch, delete...


Yup .. While others strive to fill up their DVR .. I strive to rid mine of programming (via record, watch, delete, repeat method).


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

*4*

I might use it a couple of times but that would be more or less it. 
There was a time in my life I would have said 1 without even giving it a second thought but with the wife and kids around, TV is no where near as important anymore.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. While others strive to fill up their DVR .. I strive to rid mine of programming (via record, watch, delete, repeat method).


Exactly the same here. Constant focus on reducing clutter.

Record, watch, delete.

But there are many times where the DVR can get fairly full, when the TV season is in full swing, and other priorities don't allow much viewing time. Very thankful for 1TB of storage.

But there are two needs: 1) the ability to transfer recordings to a new DVR, and 2) the ability to backup an important recording such as a significant sporting event that you want to keep forever.

It's a real pain to want to upgrade to an HR24, and you still have dozens of recordings on the old HR20, it would be wonderful to just move them and move on to the new box, and I still have a few old sporting events that I'd like to keep forever.


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

I am a record, watch, delete kind of guy as well. There are some things I keep, like a good concert I can watch/listen to over and over.... but mostly I just record series and movies, then watch em and get rid of them.

If there is anything really good I want to keep, I either buy the DVD's or I download them and store on my media server.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> Once watched, it's gone.


Pretty much my position. I very rarely keep a show after it is watched, and really have no need/desire to archive.

However, I would very much like to see external media (e-sata) be movable between DVRs on a given account. I don't consider that archiving per se, but do consider it to be highly important. I know it is very unlikely the current HR series will ever see this capability.


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## dmricke (Dec 15, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. While others strive to fill up their DVR .. I strive to rid mine of programming (via record, watch, delete, repeat method).


For the most part I'm the same way but as others have said, at the beginning of a new season there is often far more available that looks interesting and when you have six dvr channels all recording at the same time your storage can fill faster than you can clear it.

Another thing that happens a lot these days is I'll see a new series that has promise but I'll have too much "candy" that I want to watch right away and by the time I get around to the "maybe" series, it's already been canceled. In those cases if I could off load most of a season to external storage and keep my drives below 85% full.

My edit systems are happiest when I keep them below that threshold so I figure the same probably holds for our dvrs.


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

I voted extremely important but it wouldn't be of much use if it was still limited to the RID/Access card. I would prefer to limit the authorization to my valid up-to-date account status so if I lose my DVR to attrition, the unwatched or KUD content is not lost. Otherwise, I most likely wouldn't bother with archiving or massive eSATA storage.

I have to admit, the biggest reason I find it necessary to keep content already watched is my daughter's preference to watch the same content by "we have it" requests. DVR swap meant lost unwatched SL series episodes and her favorites. Hers were recoverable after hours of re-searching upcoming episodes for weeks and months.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Like some others that have posted, I'm also a RWD user. Even so I voted I MIGHT use the feature, so I'm saying/writing "never say never".


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## mp12point7 (Oct 30, 2006)

Voted #1. I struggle to keep DVR open enough for new shows because of my saving viewed programs I wish to review months and years down the road--i.e. Christmas shows, news broadcasts on nights of major developments, RFD train shows, etc. External retention would be really valuable. (Note: I do not watch any drama tv, reality or movies thus suffering present restrictions because of content producers who create original programming I have no interest in.)


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

The next time this poll comes up, there should be some parameters:

1. Is it a backup or a move process? (move seems likely)

2. Are the archived programs transportable within the account? (of limited worth without portability)

3. Does the process require / prohibit networking? (seems like it would need to be required unless they offered a USB solution)


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I'm generally a "watch and deleter", with a few exceptions.

I'm holding the whole season of _The Event_ on disk so far, because I'm not gonna invest time watching it, only to see NBC pull the plug like ABC did with _Flash Forward_ last year. That's taking up quite a bit of storage on one of my internal drives. My daughter-in-law also occasionaly does fashion spots for some of the morning shows here in NY, so we like to keep those around for a while. I'm also a big PBS _Americas Test Kitchen_ fan, along with a few other cooking shows. When I see a recipe I like, I keep it on disk as long as possible so I can review it when I finally get around to making that dish.

I did click the wrong button in the poll. I probably should have voted "important" or "useful".


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## ffemtreed (Jan 30, 2008)

I pretty much watch and delete as well. However with the failure rate of the hard drives in the DVR's I would love to be able to backup(archive) to external media and restore to the replacement DVR. There are also a few shows I would like to keep forever.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Content archiving can be useful when material is rarely broadcast, hard to find or out of license. Disney movies are a prime example.


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

I would like to use it occasionally to archive some things. Maybe a concert or comedy special or some whatever I consider worth saving.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

MysteryMan said:


> Content archiving can be useful when material is rarely broadcast, hard to find or out of license. Disney movies are a prime example.


That's right, there are lots of older movies that have never been on DVR, so when TCM shows one that I want, I copy it to DVD for my collection.


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

I love the idea of this.

If it takes forever to "reload" a movie back into a DVR it may not be worth it, but then again, I am no stranger to VOD.

I have many "keepers" that I would rather have archived than sitting in a DVR, like on a RAID backup [for example].


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

harsh said:


> The next time this poll comes up, there should be some parameters:
> 
> 1. Is it a backup or a move process? (move seems likely)
> 
> ...


Archiving is by nature just that, a backup process. The purpose it to retain it and/or retrieve in the future.

The other plumbing questions you asked are design questions that vary based on the product used to archive.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

barryb said:


> I love the idea of this.
> 
> If it takes forever to "reload" a movie back into a DVR it may not be worth it, but then again, I am no stranger to VOD.
> 
> I have many "keepers" that I would rather have archived than sitting in a DVR, like on a RAID backup [for example].


The purpose of archiving is primarily disaster recovery.

Anyone who has lost a hard drive containing their irreplaceable tax records, photos, etc...can tell you just how important archiving is...


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

barryb said:


> I love the idea of this.
> 
> If it takes forever to "reload" a movie back into a DVR it may not be worth it, but then again, I am no stranger to VOD.
> 
> I have many "keepers" that I would rather have archived than sitting in a DVR, like on a RAID backup [for example].


Hey, when you get Ready to go to bed you just tell it to Reload your movie or whatever and when you wake up the next day it is there ready for your viewing. I like that a lot but it will require some planning ahead of time.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

This has been available since the introduction of the Hauppague HD-PVR box almost 3 years ago. Just add a decent PC (I started out with a dual-core AMD, Total Media Extreme s/w ran at around 50% load), then upgraded to a quad-core box that runs about 15% load.

Coming up on some 18TB of RAID6 storage used. I have only one decent 'movie' channel (HDNMovies), but supplement it with some MGM downloads (no commercials).

Lots of 'stuff' has not been, and may never be, released on Blu-Ray. This 'de-couples' my collections from the DVR and any potential h/w failure there, although my original HR20-700 had had no problems whatsoever, despite having had two eSATA boxes plugged into it before the HD-PVR became available.

My journey detailing the use of this box, and additional s/w particularly to edit the captures, is detailed in the thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129932

The 2TB limit on DVR recordings is probably never going to be addressed (it's a OS limitation with linux), so anything beyond that is going to be a 'get it out of the box' solution. Once that's accomplished, you'll never loose anything.

It does, of course, require the use of yet another set-top box to play the recordings, and I went with the Popcorn Hour STB's, but there are a good selection of alternatives now (unlike 3 years ago); I'm about to try the new Samsung Blu-Ray box as soon as they get the 'goggle-app' out to join the Netflix/Blockbuster streaming apps. 6 months?

But the PCH works great (I have two). Used almost every day, streaming audio and video off the internet, in addition to playing my 'captures'. 'Multi-use'. The entire setup continues to work like a champ.


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The purpose of archiving is primarily disaster recovery.
> 
> Anyone who has lost a hard drive containing their irreplaceable tax records, photos, etc...can tell you just how important archiving is...


I can say without a doubt: this has happened to me. Twice.

What I really would like to see is the ability to just "load a movie", like we do with MRV now, and have said movies stored in a location that has a lot of room.

My idea of Archiving my besties: Bluray.

We would have a blind eye to think that "hard media copies" [CD's DVD's] are the future. Nothing better than just locating our favorites and hitting the play button. I'm not sure about ya'll, but I have some keepers that I downloaded that I already had the DVD. Its just convenient for me to pull up The Fifth Element as opposed to finding that round piece of plastic.

I think it's a very good idea to be able to archive, but I would like to see it be easy to "reload" back into a DVR.


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

For the record: I voted "Extremely Important (would likely use it alot)"


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Karen said:


> I don't have any use for it, but I hope the ones who want it will get it.


That's really nice of you! 

Rich


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

I hope you also include use of a mac as well as a PC. While I am a watch once and delete, I also travel and would like to take shows with me to watch. I have a mac though so the Direct2PC option will not work for me.


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## Chip Moody (Aug 1, 2007)

I voted "1"...

That said, there are two "archive" aspects that would be of interest.

#1 - Auto-backup of DVR recordings to a network shared drive - so that in the case of a DVR failure, these backed-up recordings could be re-imported to a replacement DVR's drive? I would be absolutely bat-sh** crazy/happy to see this. I loathe the idea of a hard drive going south and losing any recordings I might have on it. I already have a RAIDed NAS at home, so being able to "point" a DVR to a folder/share on one of these for this purpose would be absolutely freaking awesome.

#2 - offloading a recording to storage outside of the DVR, where the original is now deleted off the DVR's hard drive - so that the recording could be accessed again (copied from external storage BACK onto the DVR's drive) at some point in the future? That would also be "nice"...

In both cases, I would *assume* that the content would be encoded/encrypted so that the media was absolutely/totally useless for anything *but* a DirecTV DVR. If it was even "locked" to a single DVR, that would be fine *as long as* there was an option to import it to a replacement DVR in the case of the original dying.

- Chip


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

I'm actually having a hard time with this poll. I'm inclined to agree with Doug and Nick even tho I've expressed the desire to archive many times. The only series that I would want to archive at the moment are those on HBO, which I can't get on NetFlix.

I've given up on the "viewable on every HR in an account" thing, I don't think we'll see that. I've pretty much solved the "I lost all my recordings because my HR failed" thing by using many HRs to record the episodes of each show many times.

I guess I'll hit the "Useful" button. Only because of the HBO series content. My first thought was the "Extremely Important" button, which I'm sure the _Fan_ thought would be my opinion, but after reading the whole thread I find myself conflicted.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I'm actually having a hard time with this poll. I'm inclined to agree with Doug and Nick even tho I've expressed the desire to archive many times. The only series that I would want to archive at the moment are those on HBO, which I can't get on NetFlix.
> 
> I've given up on the "viewable on every HR in an account" thing, I don't think we'll see that. I've pretty much solved the "I lost all my recordings because my HR failed" thing by using many HRs to record the episodes of each show many times.
> 
> ...


Huh. Kinda surprised at what the poll is showing, I am.

Rich


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## Xsabresx (Oct 8, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. While others strive to fill up their DVR .. I strive to rid mine of programming (via record, watch, delete, repeat method).


I am the same way.

My wife on the other hand... I think she records stuff just as a security blanket. When I added the 2TB to my HR23 I had to assure her that anything that was recorded internally is still there, she just cant see it.

I really only want it in case a DVR fails and I have to get a new one. Of course that means the content on the external also has to be viewable on any DVR.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

I decided this is a 2 for me. I like to record things, then keep them around until I'm in the mood to watch. This is especially true for movies because I tend to record them on one machine that is hooked up to a PC monitor (16:10 aspect ratio) at my desk, but I'll watch them in another room (HDTV and more comfortable chair). So I can build up several movies along with several series recordings or "one-off" recordings.

My HR21-700 is usually at about 80% full and sometimes I have to throw something out or risk something I like better.

I could live without archiving, but I'd be much happier with it.

I will probably start recording on the HR23 in the basement, then swap the two machines. Or maybe I'll break down and buy a 1TB drive, but money is a little tighter than I like right now.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. While others strive to fill up their DVR .. I strive to rid mine of programming (via record, watch, delete, repeat method).


That's mostly what I do as well...most of the time.

But then again....there is years old content I have because I view it from time to time... would hate to lose that stuff. One hard disk crash...and its bye bye forever. For that reason, some folks might want to archive.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Wisegoat said:


> I voted 1, but will tell everyone not to hold their breath. The content owners will NEVER let this happen. If we could do this, the entire DVD sales portion of where they get their money will disappear. This is why we have all of the DRM issues. Content owners want you to pay everytime you watch a show. They HATE DVR's with a passion. Think of all of the times you have bought music or movies in a newer format (I own Vinyl, Cassette, CD and MP3 versions of tons of music and VHS, DVD and Blu-Ray versions of movies). This is how they make money and will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever let this happen.


I suspect it has to be a DirecTV thing as Dishnetwork does allow you to back up (Move not copy)to an external drive that can be shared amongst HD DVRs on the account. IE tied to the account rather than to the receiver. I also understand that the content is heavily encrypted and remains so if transferred back. Also content can be played back from the external. If others are like me there are some things that I want to re-watch and most once is enough. Thus the internal drive slowly fills up and a huge external drive would only postpone the day when the drive is full.

All my external drives, computer, media player, etc. are only powered up if needed to enhance their life. Right now I have two NAS external drives and am thinking of adding a third and running Ethernet cable to the living room TV so I can stock the one NAS from the basement computer and play on the media player there. Alternative get a WD Hub media playerthat has a internal 1Tb drive and Can use network or USB drives.

I capture my HD I want to keep at 1080i and either keep the capture or encode to MP4 or DVD and play from there. Most things I want to watch more than once the 1080i capture is good.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But then again....there is years old content I have because I view it from time to time... would hate to lose that stuff. One hard disk crash...and its bye bye forever. For that reason, some folks might want to archive.


+1.

I have lost 2 hard drives on 2 of my DVRs and it wasn't Pretty. Very Painful and something I do not want to experience again. So being able to Replace the Drive and then Download the Archived Recordings would be Great.

Have you ever lost your drive on your PC? Painful wasn't it. Think then about losing your recordings which may not be as important but starting all over again is not fun.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's mostly what I do as well...most of the time.
> 
> But then again....there is years old content I have because I view it from time to time... would hate to lose that stuff. One hard disk crash...and its bye bye forever. For that reason, some folks might want to archive.


http://www.hauppauge.com/ look at th HD PVR out from DVR into the HD PVR and then component out to the TV and USB to the computer. Average movie maybe 10Gig for 1080i. also captures 720p or 480p.

From their blurb 
"Record your video game play in HD. Or record your favorite TV shows in HD from your cable or satellite TV set top box. Create libraries of your TV recordings by burning them onto Blu-ray compatible DVD disks (2 hours of HDTV per standard DVD disk).
HD PVR has a built in H.264 high definition recorder. Great video quality, great system performance!
New feature! Now records directly into a Playstation 3 or Xbox360 format, plus supports AC-3 audio from S/PDIF."


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.htmlcomponent out from DVR into the HD PVR and then component out to the TV and USB to the computer. Average movie maybe 10Gig for 1080i. also captures 720p or 480p


That's been out there a while...and certainly one alternative option...not the best one...but it's one...


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't know, I think the last time I used my DVD recorder was about two years ago.


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## Sysyphus (Nov 27, 2007)

I voted "2", but 2.5 would be nearer my true position.


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## jford951 (Oct 6, 2008)

I think that is a great idea


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

I am of the RWD ilk. My 3 DVR's are most important when there are 2 or 3 things to record at the same time which does occur from time to time. The only thing I have saved over 3 months is the D12 Satellite Launch. :lol:


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## HDinVT (Dec 14, 2006)

Definitely use it, but it needs to be tied to my account, not the specific DVR. I would have upgraded my HR20-700 by now if there was a way to access the content on my eSATA drive on the next DVR. If the future is HMC30 like devices and RVU, it seems D* should give us a migration path for our content stored on the legacy DVRs. Simplistically speaking this could be a way to do just that.


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## mpar1 (Mar 20, 2008)

1. I would love this functionality.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Sixto said:


> It's a real pain to want to upgrade to an HR24, and you still have dozens of recordings on the old HR20, it would be wonderful to just move them and move on to the new box, and I still have a few old sporting events that I'd like to keep forever.


Yeah... this is a big reason for me as well.

When I first got an HR2x, it was the HR20-100. About a week or two after getting it, it started having issues (I don't remember what they were). I called DirecTV about it and they sent me a refurbished HR20-700 (which I still have). I would have sent the HR20-100 back the next day, but I kept it for quite a bit longer than I wanted to in order to get some of the stuff off of it I had recorded, and ended up having to delete multiple things I wanted to watch due to lack of time. A few years later, and the only reason I still have an HR20-700 and HR23-700 on my account (especially with lease fees going up next month) is because I still haven't managed to clean them off, and once I do, I'll have to lose some recordings I really want to keep. 

I also have some concerts that I like to keep to listen to from time to time, as well as the fact that I have some movies recorded that may not be available on Blu-ray for quite some time, if ever, as well as some Made-For-TV films that may never make it to Blu-ray.

I also have a few other types as well, but I think everybody gets the idea...

~Alan


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

All I want is the ability to keep my recordings and move them to a replacement DVR, beyond that, I don't believe in external long term archiving of tv...so I chose 5.


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## rayik (Mar 30, 2009)

Would love the ability to archieve to external storage.

Would expect, and have no problems with, the archieve to be encoded with a D* subscription required to view it. (No valid subscription, archieve can not be played.)


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

CCarncross said:


> All I want is the ability to keep my recordings and move them to a replacement DVR, beyond that, I don't believe in external long term archiving of tv...so I chose 5.


Well, by voting a 5, you will never get your wish!!!


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## DrummerBoy523 (Jan 9, 2007)

A LOT!!! with the following caveat:

I would also like to say that they need to remove restriction that marries the programming to the device. IMO, the programming should be able to be played on any DTV equipment that you have on your account or I wouldn't use this feature.

In the past 4 years, I've had 4 receivers go bad - and it would be nice not to have to lose LOTS of recordings when a receiver goes bad.


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

Extremely Important (would likely use it alot)

I would like to move recording from DVR to DVR


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

Take it or leave it, I don't know if I'd ever use it but I don't see a reason not to offer it.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

DrummerBoy523 said:


> A LOT!!! with the following caveat:
> 
> I would also like to say that they need to remove restriction that marries the programming to the device. IMO, the programming should be able to be played on any DTV equipment that you have on your account or I wouldn't use this feature.
> 
> In the past 4 years, I've had 4 receivers go bad - and it would be nice not to have to lose LOTS of recordings when a receiver goes bad.


I hope to see this in my Lifetime and since I ain't a Spring Chicken hopefully Directv will see more posts like this and a Seed will be Implanted in someone's mind in an influential position and like Magic it appears.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Scott Kocourek said:


> Take it or leave it, I don't know if I'd ever use it but I don't see a reason not to offer it.


A lot of people wil never see a need for it until their hard drive goes South and then they will wish they could replace the hard drive either Internally (if they own their DVR) or Externally and then Download their Archived Recordings to their New Drive.

It would be nice for several reasons.


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## gslater (Aug 5, 2007)

I would be much more likely to purchase the latest and greatest DVR if I knew I wouldn't lose my recordings.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

WOW - the poll is one day old with over 200 votes and 1400 looks *so far*...thanks to those who already voted.

It would seem to be a "popular" topic of sorts.

About 80% of posters have indicated at least some value in the ability to archive and would use it, 55% or so have a strong interest.

*Those who have not voted - please continue to do so*.

The poll will be open for some time yet.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

It would also be Nice if we could store our recordings we could also store our Personal Settings so we don't have to type them all in again.

At present, you have to write them down so you can type them in later when you lose them and they need to be restored.


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## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *Those who have not voted - please continue to do so*.


??:lol: Made me chuckle. Sounds like something Yogi Berra would say.:lol:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

drpjr said:


> ??:lol: Made me chuckle. Sounds like something Yogi Berra would say.:lol:


You caught that Chicagoism... 

I could also have said vote, but not often. :lol:


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## HDMike (Dec 15, 2006)

DrummerBoy523 said:


> A LOT!!! with the following caveat:
> 
> I would also like to say that they need to remove restriction that marries the programming to the device. IMO, the programming should be able to be played on any DTV equipment that you have on your account or I wouldn't use this feature.
> 
> In the past 4 years, I've had 4 receivers go bad - and it would be nice not to have to lose LOTS of recordings when a receiver goes bad.


+1

I lost everything on a 750GB external drive because the card reader failed in the DVR which required it to be replaced. That is just wrong!

Mike


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## Surveyor40 (Jan 5, 2006)

This poll must be run by the Nielson Co., 1 persons vote's represents 15 lurkers. 

Yes, I so would like the ability to archive content. Anything to not have to Play & capture in real time, then convert (DVD, iPod, PC,), catalog, store etc. For some of us, archiving is as much a hobby as fishing or racing to others. I look forward to whatever archiving solution D* has in mind. Who knows I could possibly retire my DVD recorders and SuperBeta VCR


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Surveyor40 said:


> This poll must be run by the Nielson Co., 1 persons vote's represents 15 lurkers.
> 
> Yes, I so would like the ability to archive content. Anything to not have to Play & capture in real time, then convert (DVD, iPod, PC,), catalog, store etc. For some of us, archiving is as much a hobby as fishing or racing to others. I look forward to whatever archiving solution D* has in mind. Who knows I could possibly retire my DVD recorders and SuperBeta VCR


Sad to Admit, but I have over 200 VHS Tape Recordings of Golf that I haven't visited in over 5 years because of this stupid Directv DVR Thingy which Totally Screwed Up My VCR Craving.

Hey, maybe I can have them transferred over to DVDs.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *Those who have not voted - please continue to do so*.


Boy did I screw up... 

I should have posted...

*Those who have already voted...continue not to do so again.* :eek2:

[It's an old newspaper banner in Chicago from the 60's]...and really I messed it up. It came out the same year as the infamous "vote and vote often" slogan joke.

So for those who have NOT voted...please do so at your leisure.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Boy did I screw up...
> 
> I should have posted...
> 
> ...


Hey, we all Screw Up but at least your Screw Up was Funny and Gave Us A Laugh and wasn't Painful!!! :lol:


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

I voted 3 -- useful. There are very few shows that I'd want to save permanently to another medium, but it would nice to have the option.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Appreciate the votes and views - its all good regardless of how you voted.

Keep it coming


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Boy did I screw up...
> 
> I should have posted...
> 
> ...


Not hung over from Vegas are you?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MysteryMan said:


> Not hung over from Vegas are you?


:lol::lol::lol:

What happens in Vegas... 

The really sad part is I had almost no "drinks" the entire time. I blame it on jet lag. !rolling

Ads for the poll so far - impressive input for just 1 1/2 days. Appreciate all the feedback.

Thank you to those who have voted.

Welcome to those who have not.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> What happens in Vegas...
> 
> ...


Don't feel bad. I get hung over when we change the clocks every spring and fall.


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## johnid (Jan 15, 2010)

people keep voting 1 and saying in the same vote that they want it I don't get it I thought 5 means you want it. 3- but nothing I would pay for 

Wait edit this I read it wrong never mind>


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Boy did I screw up...
> 
> I should have posted...
> 
> ...


You Need To Reduce Your Meds Now That You Are Back From Vegas!!! :lol:


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## drded (Aug 23, 2006)

I voted 4 on the premise that I could archive to an external device like a DVD burner or such.

Sometimes classic movies are on that I would be interested in saving to watch later.

Dave


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

drded said:


> I voted 4 on the premise that I could archive to an external device like a DVD burner or such.
> 
> Sometimes classic movies are on that I would be interested in saving to watch later.
> 
> Dave


A DVD recorder will do just that. I record a lot of movies from TCM, etc.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't know, I think the last time I used my DVD recorder was about two years ago.


I look at them occasionally and think about how much I wanted one. Don't know what I'd do with one now. Even if they come out with a BD recorder, I don't think I'd buy one.

Rich


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Archiving is by nature just that, a backup process. The purpose it to retain it and/or retrieve in the future.


How many archive copies of the Mona Lisa are there? Archiving is preserving the original.


> The other plumbing questions you asked are design questions that vary based on the product used to archive.


Yet these "plumbing questions" are key to whether people are going to be able to do what they want.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

harsh said:


> *How many archive copies of the Mona Lisa are there?* Archiving is preserving the original.Yet these "plumbing questions" are key to whether people are going to be able to do what they want.


That has nothing to do with the poll or topic.

Archiving is archiving of a copy for for retention / backup purposes.

It's never an original - that's called vaulting.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That has nothing to do with the poll or topic.
> 
> Archiving is archiving of a copy for for retention / backup purposes.
> 
> It's never an original - that's called vaulting.


Exactly...until recently one of my favorite movies was available in HD only when broadcast by HDNM. It's now available on BluRay. I keep it on the hard drive for retention.


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

harsh said:


> How many archive copies of the Mona Lisa are there? Archiving is preserving the original..


Harsh: I would like to archive _my_ original copy that I put into my DVR. As far as I can see, thats what this poll is about.

I have no reason to archive the Mona Lisa because I don't own it. If I wanted to see the Mona Lisa, I could just google it. If I have downloaded a movie that I really enjoy (or a program), then it would be nice to know I have an alternate method of storing it. Perhaps "backup" might be a better word [for some], but to me "archive" applies quite well.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> It does make one wonder why someone that doesn't have DirecTV, and most likely will never get the service, even bothers to post SO MUCH in DirecTV forums, "Doesn't it?"


Perhapd it's because DISH doesn't live up to his expectations! :lol:


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

Betting back to topic 

I would love this idea, but I don't think I am out of line in saying that most of us would love to set up a movie "server" that holds a bazillion titles that we can just pull up at random, and storage space is based on what we want, such as an add on drive or RAID array.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

veryoldschool said:


> It does make one wonder why someone that doesn't have DirecTV, and most likely will never get the service, even bothers to post SO MUCH in DirecTV forums, "Doesn't it?"


All of us are free to read and post in _any_ forum, regardless of whether the poster subscribes to a particular service or not, as the case may be. Yours truly is a prime example of that.

Frankly, this topic is more of general interest than it is specific to Directv.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> Perhapd it's because DISH doesn't live up to his expectations! :lol:


He used to write some really funny posts. Wonder what happened?

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> He used to write some really funny posts. Wonder what happened?
> 
> Rich


So anyway....

Your input on this topic would certainly be interesting, based on the mega-millions of content you retain. Would appreciate your vote and take on archiving/backup.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

It does make one wonder why someone that doesn't have DirecTV, and most likely will never get the service, even bothers to post SO MUCH in DirecTV forums, "Doesn't it?" 

I'll have to second that wonderment as I would like to know before I Die just why does he care about this side of the Forum???

Not that he doesn't have a right to do so but it is rather odd because I have Zero Interest in Posting in the Dish Forums.

Just Wondering.....Perhaps it's because DISH doesn't live up to his expectations and it is Boring over there so he chooses to come over here because he is a Directv Wannabe!!! :lol:


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

richierich said:


> It does make one wonder why someone that doesn't have DirecTV, and most likely will never get the service, even bothers to post SO MUCH in DirecTV forums, "Doesn't it?"
> 
> I'll have to second that wonderment as I would like to know before I Die just why does he care about this side of the Forum???
> 
> ...


Read post #95.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So anyway....
> 
> Your input on this topic would certainly be interesting, based on the mega-millions of content you retain. Would appreciate your vote and take on archiving/backup.


I did vote. Took me quite a bit of time to decide which option to vote for. I do have the ability to archive some content if I have a copy on several HRs. I'm more concerned with the good old "Every HDD should be able to be read on every HR within an account". If this produces that result, I'll be thrilled.

I voted for "Useful" by the way.

Rich


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't see this being a positive overall. If DirecTV specifically develops content archive features, I feel it would result in less productive (more expensive or less likely to conclude) negotiations with content providers.

If HBO knows DirecTV subscribers can archive every episode of Entourage in HD without any additional revenue to HBO, HBO will be inclined to get more revenue per subscriber. Is a small subset of subscribers getting archival options worth every subscriber paying more per month?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

gregjones said:


> I don't see this being a positive overall. If DirecTV specifically develops content archive features, I feel it would result in less productive (more expensive or less likely to conclude) negotiations with content providers.
> 
> If HBO knows DirecTV subscribers can archive every episode of Entourage in HD without any additional revenue to HBO, HBO will be inclined to get more revenue per subscriber. Is a small subset of subscribers getting archival options worth every subscriber paying more per month?


Not that this doesn't have merit, but this can be done currently with HD capture devices and "coming soon" the NOMAD product.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

gregjones said:


> I don't see this being a positive overall. If DirecTV specifically develops content archive features, I feel it would result in less productive (more expensive or less likely to conclude) negotiations with content providers.


Storing content that was already obtained and recorded under a customer's subscriptions, and then offloading it to another media/device would have no bearing on contractual requirements.

You can burn a DVD from a DVR today (not HD, of course), or use a Hauppauge product to offload content to a PC without any contractual implications at this time.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Storing content that was already obtained and recorded under a customer's subscriptions, and then offloading it to another media/device would have no bearing on contractual requirements.
> 
> You can burn a DVD from a DVR today (not HD, of course), or use a Hauppauge product to offload content to a PC without any contractual implications at this time.


Why do you think I specifically included the HD adjective?


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Not that this doesn't have merit, but this can be done currently with HD capture devices and "coming soon" the NOMAD product.


And none of the HD capture devices are digital and we have very limited information on the NOMAD product or the quality or lifetime (assumed to expire) of the exported programs.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

gregjones said:


> And none of the HD capture devices are digital and we have very limited information on the NOMAD product or the quality or lifetime (assumed to expire) of the exported programs.


All true, but the digital to analog to digital HD "loss" is negligible.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

gregjones said:


> And none of the HD capture devices are digital and we have very limited information on the NOMAD product or the quality or lifetime (assumed to expire) of the exported programs.


Not exactly true, or won't be as soon as Hauppague starts shipping the Colossus (1xPCI-E) card, as it has an HDMI input port, and if the HDCP is a problem, that is easily stripped out by most/all of the HDMI repeater/port-multiplier boxes out there.

As soon as they start shipping, I'll have one.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

1948GG said:


> Not exactly true, or won't be as soon as Hauppague starts shipping the Colossus (1xPCI-E) card, as it has an HDMI input port, and if the HDCP is a problem, that is easily stripped out by most/all of the HDMI repeater/port-multiplier boxes out there.
> 
> As soon as they start shipping, I'll have one.


And what percentage of DirecTV's HD DVR userbase will bother with this? Think of it from a negotiation perspective. If it is built into the DVR, the content providers have to assume that people will use it. If it requires additional expensive (relatively) hardware and setup, they cannot blame DirecTV for the implications.

HBO wants you to continue buying boxed sets of their shows. What possible motivation do they have to encourage lower sales of their products across a large user population? (NBC failed to notice this same question when they installed Leno in every 10 pm slot: see how it turned out for them?)


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

gregjones said:


> And what percentage of DirecTV's HD DVR userbase will bother with this? Think of it from a negotiation perspective. *If it is built into the DVR, the content providers have to assume that people will use it. * If it requires additional expensive (relatively) hardware and setup, they cannot blame DirecTV for the implications.


Ergo the poll, and 80% vote (so far) that folks would use some form of archiving/backup if it was offered.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

gregjones said:


> And what percentage of DirecTV's HD DVR userbase will bother with this?


If you're talking about the 99+% that think that a stretched, elongated, SD source is actually *HD" (Yes, less than .1% here on this board), you're probably right. If I had $1 for every time I've seen someone with a nice HD flat screen, in one of the couple dozen MDU setups I help engineer and keep running, who exclaim after getting a DirecTV hookup after living with cable (Comcast or otherwise), "WOW WOW WOW!!!!!!" and realizing that the majority of channels they had been watching in 'HD' were actually 'hd', I'd have to get a Swiss bank account to hold it all.

Archiving programs is a constitutional right. Just because there was no (reasonable) way to do so for the consumer for some 30 years of television, and no (reasonable) way for the consumer to do so in the first 10 years of HD television, doesn't mean that more reasonable ways don't come out of the woodwork eventually, despite backdoor ways of the super-rich to try and get folks to purchase things over and over and over again.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

1948GG said:


> << Snipped bits out >>
> Archiving programs is a constitutional right.


Er, no it isn't.

However much I want to do so easily, in HD, and for free.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

It's important to me.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

MysteryMan said:


> Perhapd it's because DISH doesn't live up to his expectations! :lol:


Perhaps it is because DISH Network subscribers have long had the ability to digitally archive DVR content that they would have something to offer in a thread about archiving.

DIRECTV faithful can only _anticipate_ what it would be like.


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## texasmoose (May 25, 2007)

19 would never use this?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Archiving is by nature just that, a backup process. The purpose it to retain it and/or retrieve in the future.


You're confusing archiving (retaining of records) with the decidedly separate and apart IT version of archiving (which is typically used for interim snap shots as opposed to long-term backup).


> The other plumbing questions you asked are design questions that vary based on the product used to archive.


It is important to distinguish between "offloading" and making "backup copies" and the word "archiving" doesn't achieve that end. All of my questions address aspects of moving content around that have a significant impact on long term usefulness.

As most of us know, unlimited digital copies are not in the cards. HD copies made through analog connections are currently possible but many hardware and content organizations are backing technology that will see the analog hole begin to close tightly within three years if the AACS has their way.

http://www.avexpertblog.com/journal/2010/11/5/the-sun-is-setting-goodbye-analog-hdtv.html

In theory, products like the Hauppauge HD PVR 1212 would become next to impossible to use for protected content and digital devices may be required to downres significantly (perhaps as low as 480i).

Many may be in favor of being able to make unlimited digital copies but not very many would care for only being able to move one copy around or being able to make deliberately diminished copies.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

1948GG said:


> Archiving programs is a constitutional right. Just because there was no (reasonable) way to do so for the consumer for some 30 years of television, and no (reasonable) way for the consumer to do so in the first 10 years of HD television, doesn't mean that more reasonable ways don't come out of the woodwork eventually, despite backdoor ways of the super-rich to try and get folks to purchase things over and over and over again.


Where does it state in the Constitution that Archiving Programs is a Constitutional Right???

I must have missed that when I read the Constitution.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Whether you define Archiving as Offloading or Backing Up I define it as Offloading a Duplicate Copy so the Original Version can be Restored if it is Lost. So if you want to called this method of Archiving "Backing Up" then that is fine with me as long as I have a Duplicate Copy Stored somewhere so I can Retrieve it in case I lose the Original Version due to a loss of my hard drive or the loss of my DVR.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

harsh said:


> Perhaps it is because DISH Network subscribers have long had the ability to digitally archive DVR content that they would have something to offer in a thread about archiving.
> 
> DIRECTV faithful can only _anticipate_ what it would be like.


Faithfully anticipates DISH looking like a one legged man in a ass kicking contest negotiating with content providers like they did last year with Disney, FOX and MSG!


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

I read the poll assuming that the archived content would only be playable on either the same DVR that recorded it, or a replacement (if they were able to offer that ability).

In that context, I voted "3" for usefull. Only because it would help keep disk space available. 

If the functionality allowed for open access to the recordings, that would definitely be a 1.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

BattleScott said:


> I read the poll assuming that the archived content would only be playable on either the same DVR that recorded it, or a replacement (if they were able to offer that ability).
> 
> In that context, I voted "3" for useful. Only because it would help keep disk space available.
> 
> If the functionality allowed for open access to the recordings, that would definitely be a 1.


While any design is unknown at this time...the base purpose would be "backup" in some form.

Some of us have bee crusading for years now that if a hard disk fails in an HD DVR...there should be some way to restore the content - which could be done through backup/archived content located on some other device - perhaps an external hard drive.

That content could be mapped to the user account and/or RID of the source device. How it would work is speculation, but these polls help illustrate the need/desire of users for such capabilities.

Like any other poll here, its a random and limited sample, but based on the definitive votes here...its clear that some form of archiving/backup is both welcome and likely overdue to a degree.

After running a similar poll in 2009, there were <250 votes after 2 weeks. This one has more votes than that after 2 days. The interest level has grown, and the votes are also higher in favor.

Thanks to those who have voted so far... 

More votes are welcome.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

1948GG said:


> Archiving programs is a constitutional right.


I truly hope that was sarcasm. Otherwise, it's just sad.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> While any design is unknown at this time...the base purpose would be "backup" in some form.
> 
> Some of us have bee crusading for years now that if a hard disk fails in an HD DVR...there should be some way to restore the content - which could be done through backup/archived content located on some other device - perhaps an external hard drive.
> 
> ...


Um, no. Most here have no interest in it being tied to a specific device. People want anything they can get for "free." For them, this is not about backing up what is currently on a DVR but about getting copies of movies and shows to own permanently for use on other devices without having to purchase those (separate) rights.

Yes, it would be nice to have a way to pull programming off of a failed DVR. Many failures on DVRs are hard-disk related though. I can absolutely see a desire to be able to backup content in case of future failure. That is a somewhat legitimate argument. But if you are convinced that content providers are transferring an indefinite license to content when they broadcast it, they will charge considerably more for it.

You can argue fair use all day long but you have to accept that the people that own the content have the right to set the price on it. If you have the ability to use it indefinitely instead of for a limited time or on a limited set of hardware, the price may be adjusted.

Would I argue if it came to be without any additional cost (either separate or in increased pricing overall)? No. Do I think that is likely? No.

Nothing in fair use gives you the right to have a copy of the exact same quality as the original. If any large population starts getting that kind of content, it will end up costing all customers of that content much more over the long-term.

Are you willing to pay 30-40% higher subscription costs per channel for this right? Because if you're not willing to do that, you probably need to reconsider just how much you want it.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

gregjones said:


> Um, no. *Most here *have no interest in it being tied to a specific device.


Curious...just how would you know *that*? :shrug:

How would you be able to secure the content to meet regulatory requirments for copy protection?

*You* might want that, but moving content elsewhere in an "open content" environment is something entirely different from the topic at hand - archiving/backup.

Having spoken to many folks regarding archiving/backup for years now, and also launching a poll on the very same topic in 2009 with related discussions...none of that pertained to your subject matter.

Please feel free to discuss the merits of that topic elsewhere, but its outside the realm of this topic, thread, and poll.


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

Judging on current ESATA functionality and the general direction of copy protection, I would consider it pointless to evaluate the demand for any future "archive" functionality based on it being "less restrictive" than what is currently in place. I would think the only possible improvement could be the ability to restore the archive files to any "authorized" unit on the account.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

BattleScott said:


> Judging on current ESATA functionality and the general direction of copy protection, I would consider it pointless to evaluate the demand for any future "archive" functionality based on it being "less restrictive" than what is currently in place. I would think the only possible improvement could be the ability to restore the archive files to any "authorized" unit on the account.


Totally agree.

I also would not anticipate DirecTV introducing a new framework either if/when they support some form of archiving/backup.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Curious...just how would you know *that*? :shrug:
> 
> How would you be able to secure the content to meet regulatory requirments for copy protection?
> 
> ...


No, I don't want that. But any system that allows there to be more content than the drive size currently on the hardware has the same issues. How do you expect HBO to be ok with someone collecting all of the episodes across multiple seasons of a show to avoid buying the disc sets?

It is easy (and above-board) to want to protect what you recorded. When it moves to keeping much more content for longer periods of time, it becomes problematic for the content providers. Especially when someone is bright enough to assert a fictitious constitutional right.


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

so-so is my vote

i have a table full of dvds i burned and in some cases, spent a long time editing. I really have never watched any of them anymore. I cant see how this would change just if i had the ability to record HD. The only way i can ever see me using them is when i become so poor that i cant afford DTV then i'd have something to watch. 

the only true interest id have would be a low cost backup, perhaps some kind of raid, for when the machine inevitably crashes.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

gregjones said:


> No, I don't want that.


Perfectly fine. Then just vote your position accordingly.

Thanks.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

1948GG said:


> If you're talking about the 99+% that think that a stretched, elongated, SD source is actually *HD" (Yes, less than .1% here on this board), you're probably right. If I had $1 for every time I've seen someone with a nice HD flat screen, in one of the couple dozen MDU setups I help engineer and keep running, who exclaim after getting a DirecTV hookup after living with cable (Comcast or otherwise), "WOW WOW WOW!!!!!!" and realizing that the majority of channels they had been watching in 'HD' were actually 'hd', I'd have to get a Swiss bank account to hold it all.
> 
> Archiving programs is a constitutional right. Just because there was no (reasonable) way to do so for the consumer for some 30 years of television, and no (reasonable) way for the consumer to do so in the first 10 years of HD television, doesn't mean that more reasonable ways don't come out of the woodwork eventually, despite backdoor ways of the super-rich to try and get folks to purchase things over and over and over again.


_Archiving programs is a constitutional right._

I don't get that. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Just curious, not looking for a pitched battle. 

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> _Archiving programs is a constitutional right._
> 
> I don't get that. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Just curious, not looking for a pitched battle.
> 
> Rich


Please....let's not go down that road.

There are copy protection laws. There are copyright laws. There is nothing in the constitution on this topic.

If folks want to debate those points, feel free to start or join a thread on the merits of those issues.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

gregjones said:


> Um, no. Most here have no interest in it being tied to a specific device. People want anything they can get for "free." For them, this is not about backing up what is currently on a DVR but about getting copies of movies and shows to own permanently for use on other devices without having to purchase those (separate) rights.


Not sure I really understand your statements above. I've long been a proponent of "all HDDs in an account being able to be played on any HR in an account". This would certainly allow archiving. Even a separate and distinct device that would come close to approximating my thoughts on the account being the key to using the HDDs to be read and played by any HR in the account would suffice. I think.

Your statement about "free" content puzzles me too. What do we get for "free"? You pay a monthly bill that enables you to record as many copies of one program as your equipment will allow. Neither the content or the equipment are "free". We pay for that.



> Yes, it would be nice to have a way to pull programming off of a failed DVR. Many failures on DVRs are hard-disk related though. I can absolutely see a desire to be able to backup content in case of future failure. That is a somewhat legitimate argument. But if you are convinced that content providers are transferring an indefinite license to content when they broadcast it, they will charge considerably more for it.


We already have that ability and we pay for it. Why would the prices rise if some other kind of backup were introduced into the mix?



> You can argue fair use all day long but you have to accept that the people that own the content have the right to set the price on it. If you have the ability to use it indefinitely instead of for a limited time or on a limited set of hardware, the price may be adjusted.


You can only use that argument for PPV as it stands today.



> Nothing in fair use gives you the right to have a copy of the exact same quality as the original. If any large population starts getting that kind of content, it will end up costing all customers of that content much more over the long-term.


Again, a lot of us have the ability to record multiple copies of any content (discounting PPV) right now. If a larger number of people finally wake up and see that losing content on an HDD because the HR that recorded that content fails, perhaps we'll actually see that archiving/backup ability.



> Are you willing to pay 30-40% higher subscription costs per channel for this right? Because if you're not willing to do that, you probably need to reconsider just how much you want it.


Same argument from me on the above statements. Why would the price go up if it hasn't already?

Rich


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There are copy protection laws. There are copyright laws. There is nothing in the constitution on this topic.


The amendment about being able to make copies of other's content for personal use is clearly covered in the "Bill of Self-righteousness"


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

harsh said:


> The amendment about being able to make copies of other's content for personal use is clearly covered in the "Bill of Self-righteousness"


Harsh, you do have a Sense of Humor!!! Very Good!!! :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

harsh said:


> The amendment about being able to make copies of other's content for personal use is clearly covered in the "Bill of Self-righteousness"


Finally! There's that humor that's been missing for so long! And welcome it is!

Rich


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks to those who have voted so far...
> 
> More votes are welcome. .


Vote early and vote often.

If copying and archiving a movie off a premium movie channel is analogous to buying a DVD and burning a _legal_ backup copy, where's the purchase? I do not believe that the TOS of any premium movie service grants the right to create and maintain a copy of any of their transmitted content. IMO, it is a violation to "duplicate" a copyrighted work for the purpose of repeat viewing. It is not the same as burning a backup copy of purchased DVD.

If you want to "archive" a tv program, movie or other work, then go buy the DVD. AFAIC, one must purchase the right to "own" a copy of a protected work.

My .02


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Nick said:


> If copying and archiving a movie off a premium movie channel is analogous to buying a DVD and burning a _legal_ backup copy, where's the purchase? I do not believe that the TOS of any premium movie service grants the right to create and maintain a copy of any of their transmitted content. IMO, it is a violation to "duplicate" a copyrighted work for the purpose of repeat viewing. It is not the same as burning a backup copy of purchased DVD.
> 
> If you want to "archive" a tv program, movie or other work, then go buy the DVD. AFAIC, one must purchase the right to "own" a copy of a protected work.
> 
> My .02


Because you pay Directv who pays the Content Provider so you have a Right to Watch it and Record it and have multiple copies of the same program on your DVRs. So this is just making one more copy for your Own Needs and since you have paid for it and it would be connected to your Account or the RID # of the DVR then you would have every right to make a Copy for your own personal use, that being to have an Archived Copy of your Recording which can not be given to others to use because it is tied to your Account.

DTCP Content Protection is designed to keep you from distributing copies to others but you aren't doing that. This isn't Bootlegging but Saving a Copy for Yourself for Archival or Backup Purposes.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nick said:


> If copying and archiving a movie off a premium movie channel is analogous to buying a DVD and burning a _legal_ backup copy, where's the purchase? I do not believe that the TOS of any premium movie service grants the right to create and maintain a copy of any of their transmitted content. IMO, it is a violation to "duplicate" a copyrighted work for the purpose of repeat viewing. It is not the same as burning a backup copy of purchased DVD.
> 
> If you want to "archive" a tv program, movie or other work, then go buy the DVD. AFAIC, one must purchase the right to "own" a copy of a protected work.
> 
> My .02


Since I have HBO, I'll throw in my .02.
What's the difference between storing a program in the DVR for years and having a back up copy that will only play if I still have HBO?
I'm not talking about some open copy that I can play anywhere, but a copy that is still tied to my account and the account must still have HBO.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Nick said:


> Vote early and vote often.
> 
> If copying and archiving a movie off a premium movie channel is analogous to buying a DVD and burning a _legal_ backup copy, where's the purchase? I do not believe that the TOS of any premium movie service grants the right to create and maintain a copy of any of their transmitted content. IMO, it is a violation to "duplicate" a copyrighted work for the purpose of repeat viewing. It is not the same as burning a backup copy of purchased DVD.
> 
> ...


How is this any different than copying something to a VCR back in the day. That was legal then and it's still legal now.

If I had a video card connected to the component output of the DVR I could record to my PC anything in HD I want and it's perfectly legal.

Realistically, a DirecTV provided method of archiving programs would be a bit different. However, in the big picture scheme of things, I legally record anything I can watch on my TV and there's nothing anyone can do about it...nor should there be anything anyone can do about it...the Betamax Case.

My 3.34¢ FWIW. :grin:

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

The ability to retain backup copies of recorded content is neither new nor prohibited...as long as it follows certain legal requirements.

For the sake of this poll, assume it would be done in a legally-compliant manner. Some of the last few posts provided some excellent feedback along those lines. Thanks.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Bertelson said:


> How is this any different than copying something to a VCR back in the day. That was legal then and it's still legal now.
> 
> If I had a video card connected to the component output of the DVR I could record to my PC anything in HD I want and it's perfectly legal.
> 
> ...


The Betamax case is analog, and the DMCA deals with [direct] digital copies which are illegal.

BTW: Sony is now the content owner/provider so don't expect them to "fight the good fight" again. :lol:


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> The Betamax case is analog, and the DMCA deals with [direct] digital copies which are illegal.
> 
> BTW: Sony is now the content owner/provider so don't expect them to "fight the good fight" again. :lol:


That's true but component is analog. 

Don't forget that fair use has been applied to digital medium and upheld. There was a case a couple of years ago involving Youtube. IMHO, fair use as it was applied to the Betamax will prevail in the digital world.

Sony makes digital music players and provides the software to rip music from CD's; fair use in a digital world, and by their own actions condone such use. In further support are Sony's Blu-Ray player that connect to Youtube, Hulu, etc. furthering the digital fair use doctrine to the digital medium...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Bertelson said:


> That's true but component is analog.
> 
> Don't forget that fair use has been applied to digital medium and upheld. There was a case a couple of years ago involving Youtube. IMHO, fair use as it was applied to the Betamax will prevail in the digital world.
> 
> ...


OK....

Saddle up and get your boots on to go here for the legal mumbo-jumbo on this topic...but in short....an archival copy _*is*_ permissible under fair use law.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=archival&url=/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00000107----000-notes.html

If that wasn't the case...you wouldn't see digital copy options coming with Blu Ray disks these days.

It's not if it can be done, but how that really matters on that front.

In the mean time...if/when it becomes offered...and assuming it is indeed an archival backup...the poll continues to reflect a strong desire for this capability.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's been out there a while...and certainly one alternative option...not the best one...but it's one...


True that the quality isn't as good as the original with the HD PVR since you are re-encoding a compressed source, however it is much better than a DVD of the same content.

1080i h.264 and it looks pretty good to me. I can put it on a NAS or the media players 1TB and watch it from the media player from either. I can burn to a BD-R disc as a backup in case either of those drives go bad. I can edit using the VideoReDo TVSuite 4 or I can author as a BluRay disc vs just storing the raw files on a BD-R.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> True that the quality isn't as good as the original with the HD PVR since you are re-encoding a compressed source, however it is much better than a DVD of the same content.
> 
> 1080i h.264 and it looks pretty good to me. I can put it on a NAS or the media players 1TB and watch it from the media player from either. I can burn to a BD-R disc as a backup in case either of those drives go bad. I can edit using the VideoReDo TVSuite 4 or I can author as a BluRay disc vs just storing the raw files on a BD-R.


With the latest Blu Ray players streaming content to a hard drive that can be viewed later...the idea that saving content to a media for personal use/storage seems to be desirable. The key motivation cited in this thread is around the base concept of archiving as a "disaster-recovery" mechanism of sorts.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

This is the definition of Archive.

"An archive is a collection of historical records, as well as the place they are located. Archives contain primary source documents that have accumulated over the course of an individual or organization's lifetime.".

So, I like to use the term "Backup for Purpose of Restoration of the Original Recording" when I refer to this "Archival and Restoration Process" because it is a more accurate phrase.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

richierich said:


> This is the definition of Archive.
> 
> "An archive is a collection of historical records, as well as the place they are located. Archives contain primary source documents that have accumulated over the course of an individual or organization's lifetime.".
> 
> So, I like to use the term "Backup for Purpose of Restoration of the Original Recording" when I refer to this "Archival and Restoration Process" because it is a more accurate phrase.


Works for me Mr. Webster.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

I voted that I wouldn't use it because I don't use my DVR as a storage device for shows I would watch over and over. If there is an exception where I would want something to view again at a later time I just buy it. I've seen people keep entire seasons on their DVR. To me I guess it's main purpose is time shifting not as a storage box for something I might want to watch in another year.


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## Karen (Oct 4, 2007)

I had several shows that I wanted to watch again, so kept them on my DVR. After I got a Netflix account, I checked to see if they were available for streaming and was able to delete almost all of them. <g>


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Karen said:


> I had several shows that I wanted to watch again, so kept them on my DVR. After I got a Netflix account, I checked to see if they were available for streaming and was able to delete almost all of them. <g>


Choices are good.

I know I'll be keeping my Green Bay Packers romp over Atlanta Falcons NFL game last night for some time to come.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Choices are good.
> 
> I know I'll be keeping my Green Bay Packers romp over Atlanta Falcons NFL game last night for some time to come.


Yeah, Rub It In!!! :lol:

It wasn't a Fair Game because the Falcons never showed up at the Dome. Their Bus broke down on the way and they had to play some college football players instead.

Now, I see why they got rid of Brett Favre and went with Aaron Rogers. He is so Accurate and throws a Bullet and they have a knack for catching the ball while we were dropping it. And I might add that he can Scramble. Rated Second behind Michael Vick in yardage rushing.

TURBLE, TURBLE, TURBLE!!! JUST TURBLE!!! :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Lots more to record coming up.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Details?


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

What Kind Of Details Do You Want???


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Yeah, Archive This! 

...no really, I have this thing I'd now like to archive. A couple of things actually. A couple of Bond movies that I've decided I like keep for a while. 

I guess I have found a use for archiving. 

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Yeah, Archive This!
> 
> ...no really, I have this thing I'd now like to archive. A couple of things actually. A couple of Bond movies that I've decided I like keep for a while.
> 
> ...


Lets hope your hard drive hums along just fine until we maybe see some form of archiving...


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Lets hope your hard drive hums along just fine until we maybe see some form of archiving...


Yes, because the day your hard drive quits humming and gives up the Ghost, then you will be feeling the pain that I have felt twice when my hard drive died and I lost all of my recordings because there was no way to Archive or Back Them Up so I could install a new hard drive and then download the archived recordings back onto the new drive.

Oh Woe Is Me!!!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

richierich said:


> hdtvfan0001 said:
> 
> 
> > Lets hope your hard drive hums along just fine until we maybe see some form of archiving...
> ...


Been there, done that... 

Mike


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## Groundhog45 (Nov 10, 2005)

I voted 3. Probably useful from time to time. The only real problem I expect and have had with a dead hard drive in a DVR is loosing the stuff I haven't watched yet. Most things are watch and delete, or maybe keep for a while to watch again and then delete. Most movies will be on again soon, many times.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

The voting so far and excellent feedback have exceeded the expectations I anticipated in the beginning.

Many thanks to those who have already voted and posted. I suspect this information will be useful as reference material in some form or some context.

For those who have not voted and/or posted - please do so.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> For those who have not voted and/or posted - please do so.


Much Better!!!

Yes. much better than "Those who have not voted - please continue to do so.". :lol::lol::lol:

I guess the Meds have worn off. :lol:


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Been there, done that...
> 
> Mike


Also, wouldn't it be Nice if we could also Archive or Back Up our Settings and Series Links so when your hard drive crashes and you replace it you can Download your Settings and your Recordings and be right back in business without having to wait a week or so to get another DVR and have to Input all of those Settings again and have No Recordings?


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

That's where I expect this to finally land....the ability to move the recordings to another DVR on your same acct should one fail(not a HDD failure of course), and the ability to back up your settings(series links, etc...)


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## VLaslow (Aug 16, 2006)

When my hard drive goes again (and it will) it will be nice to have it somewhere else.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

VLaslow said:


> When my hard drive goes again (and it will) it will be nice to have it somewhere else.


Not sure if that will happen.

Rich


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

The main issue is most people, outside of here, wouldn't take the time or effort to do this. The only way I could see this being worth it for DirecTV is to almost have a cloud type situation where they store content ID somehow on a list and then have a restore function where it could be downloaded. Otherwise I just don't see a large draw for it unless they can cheaply put in a software fix that can recognize an account number or something that would allow a HD to be used as a backup and then used on a new receiver. Either way I don't see the market that large for this. Even on here where we're more technically inclined per capita it's on 40% useful at best.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

CCarncross said:


> That's where I expect this to finally land....the ability to move the recordings to another DVR on your same acct should one fail(not a HDD failure of course), and the ability to back up your settings(series links, etc...)


Or perhaps have the ability to move it to an External Hard Drive just for Back Up Purposes.

I've got 3 DVRs backing up my other 4 DVRs but having all of the Recordings I want to Back Up on an External Drive for later Recovery Purposes would be very Nice!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> The main issue is most people, outside of here, wouldn't take the time or effort to do this. The only way I could see this being worth it for DirecTV is to almost have a cloud type situation where they store content ID somehow on a list and then have a restore function where it could be downloaded. Otherwise I just don't see a large draw for it unless they can cheaply put in a software fix that can recognize an account number or something that would allow a HD to be used as a backup and then used on a new receiver. Either way I don't see the market that large for this. Even on here where we're more technically inclined per capita it's on 40% useful at best.


That's about the same argument that I've been greeted with every time I started threads about being able to use any HDD on any HR within an account. I think your argument has merit, but it looks as if D* is finally going to do something about the problem that many folks face if they lose an HR or, more rarely, an HDD. Perhaps we should look at this as a first step in the right direction.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Moderators:*

Please feel to close this poll tomorrow (1/25).

It will have been open for about 2 weeks -with nearly 400 votes....more than I would have anticipated - a great thing!

The percentages have been consistent now for over a week.

Thanks to all the folks who have voted so far.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Thank you to those who have voted in this poll, and also shared your posts, information, and views.

The turnout exceeded any expectations when this was started.


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