# TiVo olive branch?



## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

"TiVo's tale of two satcasters"

from http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ia50cdcb373435f1bee17629d253c7afd

_"With the ownership by Liberty now of DirecTV, it's a somewhat different environment -- I hope a more friendly environment than the one we faced when News Corp. was the majority owner of DirecTV," Rogers told Wall Street analysts at the annual Collins Stewart Growth Conference._


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Anything is possible. That being said... those who hope for a renewed relationship with TiVo should expect to be disappointed.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

justlgi said:


> "TiVo's tale of two satcasters"
> 
> from http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ia50cdcb373435f1bee17629d253c7afd
> 
> _"With the ownership by Liberty now of DirecTV, it's a somewhat different environment -- I hope a more friendly environment than the one we faced when News Corp. was the majority owner of DirecTV," Rogers told Wall Street analysts at the annual Collins Stewart Growth Conference._


We've heard this from TiVo in the past .. Let me just say .. Don't look for TiVo to be offered on DIRECTV again ..


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Especially after last year buying Replay TV. There is a whole bunch of technology there they haven't incorporated first.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

Most companies cut cost by outsourcing things that are not part of their core business to people who can do it more efficiently. If you are in the business of making cars you don't make the radios, tires, or even most of the parts. So you pay someone else to do it.

I would contend that D* is in the business of broadcasting signals via satellite not making DVRs or DVR software. Others may see this differently. Usually when a company stretches itself too thin you see quality issues and the like and they will eventually realize this when their stock takes a hit and they will move towards the core business and spin off the others.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

DIRECTV doesn't make the DVRs, they outsource the manufacturing to Pace, Thomson, and Samsung, just as they did in the DIRECTiVo days.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Well I believe that "burning bridges" is not a smart decision in anyone's playbook.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> DIRECTV doesn't make the DVRs, they outsource the manufacturing to Pace, Thomson, and Samsung, just as they did in the DIRECTiVo days.


The design is D*'s and so is the software development. That is what he was talking about and his point about sticking to your core competency is dead on.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

You never know...DirecTV may end up buying Tivo. Malone has never been shy about spending a buck.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Ken S said:


> You never know...DirecTV may end up buying Tivo. Malone has never been shy about spending a buck.


Now that would be a dream come true. Too bad it is most likely only a dream.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Funny stuff. Rogers says that every quarter. Tivo was actually brought up in the last DirecTV investor meeting and it was basically shot down because their entire future strategy is to get to one receiver for everyone based on the HR series. Tivo is gone, will be gone and isn't coming back. But what else is Rogers going to say? He has to try to keep hope alive for the stock holders. He isn't going to say that DirecTV won't play with them anymore and they are sad.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Funny stuff. Rogers says that every quarter. Tivo was actually brought up in the last DirecTV investor meeting and it was basically shot down because their entire future strategy is to get to one receiver for everyone based on the HR series. Tivo is gone, will be gone and isn't coming back. But what else is Rogers going to say? He has to try to keep hope alive for the stock holders. He isn't going to say that DirecTV won't play with them anymore and they are sad.


Agreed.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

I would be absolutely SHOCKED to see a new Tivo receiver for DirecTv at this point.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

Lee L said:


> Now that would be a dream come true. Too bad it is most likely only a dream.


Why is that a dream ? Maybe very shrewd to just buy the IP and sit on it.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

bhelton71 said:


> Why is that a dream ? Maybe very shrewd to just buy the IP and sit on it.


DirecTV already bought the IP from ReplayTV. That, in essence, innoculates them against a challenge on that front.

Hyperbole aside, there doesn't seem to be much upside to DirecTV being heavily involved in TiVo. There are vocal critics against the HR2x series but it doesn't seem to have impacted subscriber retention/addition or HD DVR adoption. Unless there was some new and very significant development, this would provide no shareholder return whatsoever.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Funny stuff. Rogers says that every quarter. ...


If so, then that nails it right there, no need to discuss further. If an olive branch has been dangling there all along, and not being taken, it of course is no longer an olive branch, a dried out twig at the most. Case closed


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Ken S said:


> You never know...DirecTV may end up buying Tivo. Malone has never been shy about spending a buck.


Maybe he should buy them and close them down.. End all the discussion and mess up the competition in one swipe :lol:


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

bonscott87 said:


> their entire future strategy is to get to one receiver for everyone based on the HR series.


No one ever said that the one receiver had to have the proven buggy D* software on it 

Seems to me that the "Cutting Edgers" are the ones most vehemently opposed to any TiVo love. I think there may be a propensity to look past all of the issues simply because you think D* is letting you in on some of the action. Truth is if they were doing enough in-house we wouldn't be talking about freezes/lockups/reboots/blanks and the like and you'd be only testing the cool new stuff. But that isn't the case.

I personally think they should have both, let the market decide even if one has a markup.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

justlgi said:


> No one ever said that the one receiver had to have the proven buggy D* software on it


No, much better to have buggy Tivo software on them.

How is that Tivo migration to Comcast going, BTW?

I will state it once again. I have more problems with my HD Tivo than I do with my three HR2x boxes.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

justlgi said:


> No one ever said that the one receiver had to have the proven buggy D* software on it
> 
> Seems to me that the "Cutting Edgers" are the ones most vehemently opposed to any TiVo love. I think there may be a propensity to look past all of the issues simply because you think D* is letting you in on some of the action. Truth is if they were doing enough in-house we wouldn't be talking about freezes/lockups/reboots/blanks and the like and you'd be only testing the cool new stuff. But that isn't the case.
> 
> I personally think they should have both, let the market decide even if one has a markup.


Some of the most prominent Cutting Edgers used to have TiVos in their homes. I could list you ten or fifteen off the top of my head. (I had two myself.) They know what TiVo is and they have moved on.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Some of the most prominent Cutting Edgers used to have TiVos in their homes. I could list you ten or fifteen off the top of my head. (I had two myself.) They know what TiVo is and they have moved on.


And, I have a new Tivo in my home. It is newer than my 2 H20's. I use it for Comcast to since I have it there anyway for my cable modem.

No matter, what, Tivo is old software. I find it clunky these days. It was a revelation last century but is in drastic need of overhaul.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

gregjones said:


> There are vocal critics against the HR2x series but it doesn't seem to have impacted subscriber retention/addition or HD DVR adoption.


There was a point in time when the hardware, particularly the TiVo boxes, was enough to keep many people with DirecTV, even when the service itself was going through some strain due to bandwidth issues. At this point, my perception is that DirecTV doesn't really have the edge any more on hardware (as a whole, they are neither significantly better or worse), but they do have the edge on service/programming. So at THIS point, people few are probably leaving because of it, since there's not much better out there.

I've not had the HR21 long enough to have a complete opinion of it, on the surface, it seems that some things are better, and some things are worse. But compared to where a modern TiVo box could be at this point in time (the DirecTV TiVos were pretty much the same as they were nearly 10 years ago), the TiVo would likely win hands down. If they had allowed the feature set of the DirecTV Tivos to progress (like it did with the standalone TiVos), and if the hardware advanced like you would expect something today compared to the age of the original boxes, I feel they would have a MUCH better product than what they have today. Of course, it's all moot at this point.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Some of the most prominent Cutting Edgers used to have TiVos in their homes. I could list you ten or fifteen off the top of my head. (I had two myself.) They know what TiVo is and they have moved on.


I'm just saying that I think there is a lot of defense and "Mine works fine" "I've never had issues" ... stuff that gets posted here that I think can be attributed more to a liking of the CE program than to people not actually having issues with their box. It gives people something to look forward to, what will be in the release, will there be new toys, widgets ... etc. So of course they are more likely to defend be more loyal, that's all I'm saying.

As far as moving on, other than ranting and speculating in places like this there isn't much of a choice. Which makes finding articles like this fun. No one here knows what direction D* will go, even those closest to them and probably most in the company. And of course it looks like we're stuck (some of you happily) with what we have. But it's fun to speculate.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> I will state it once again. I have more problems with my HD Tivo than I do with my three HR2x boxes.


My experience has been just the opposite and my HR2x boxes are currently far more stable than they have been in the past.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

TomF said:


> My experience has been just the opposite and my HR2x boxes are currently far more stable than they have been in the past.


I have no problems with that. I always say that complicated systems have many inconsistent issues.

I do take issue with people who try to blanket statement the Tivo as God's gift, however. They forget all the issues that were and are still covered on tivocommunity.com


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

justlgi said:


> I'm just saying that I think there is a lot of defense and "Mine works fine" "I've never had issues" ... stuff that gets posted here that I think can be attributed more to a liking of the CE program than to people not actually having issues with their box. It gives people something to look forward to, what will be in the release, will there be new toys, widgets ... etc. So of course they are more likely to defend be more loyal, that's all I'm saying.


I am sure it is not your intent, but you are basically calling people liars (at best forgetful).


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

After 5 years I just retired my final 2 SD DirecTiiVos and swapped my last HD DirecTiVo for an HR21, having already used the HR2x DVRs since March 2007. That's how much confidence I have in the DIRECTV DVR Plus platform/software.

As to TiVo's relationship with DIRECTV, I agree with others here that we won't see a new MPEG4 DirecTiVo any time soon. Perhaps we'll see some movement on licensing when the current agreement between DIRECTV and TiVo expires, but that's probably not even that much of a priority now that DIRECTV owns the Replay portfolio, which includes many patents similar to TiVos' patents.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

tonyd79 said:


> I am sure it is not your intent, but you are basically calling people liars (at best forgetful).


Obviously not my intent, but I do have to say that if someone were to say they've never had a blank recording, lockup, reboot or audio sync issues ... lets say in the last month then yes they are a liar.

Just look around out side of DBStalk it's not pretty for DTV. While I do get the point on cable cards and TiVo I'm sure it's probably no worse that the agony some here have gone through with D* contractors and signal strength alignment issues. At least install issues are acknowledged here (anything to not blame the DVR software). I know that if you're on the internet 9 outta 10 times you're doing 1 of 2 things praising or complaining. But if you look there is a disproportional number of complaints about the HR's than most.

Around here those who disent get squashed until they go away ... why ... methinks the CE program that's all I'm saying


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

justlgi said:


> Obviously not my intent, but I do have to say that if someone were to say they've never had a blank recording, lockup, reboot or audio sync issues ... lets say in the last month then yes they are a liar.


well call me a liar.. haven't had a blank or lockup in a year plus..
and as far as reboots: 1 bad CE release with a know problem.. and one HR21 test box with a bad harddrive out of the box.. other than that have not hit the red button in well over a year..
There are a ton of top notch problem solvers here that love to help if someone want's help..


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

justlgi said:


> I'm just saying that I think there is a lot of defense and "Mine works fine" "I've never had issues" ... stuff that gets posted here that I think can be attributed more to a liking of the CE program than to people not actually having issues with their box. It gives people something to look forward to, what will be in the release, will there be new toys, widgets ... etc. So of course they are more likely to defend be more loyal, that's all I'm saying.


I think that the CE program people have issues with CE releases. That's the whole point of the program, to report issues.

In regards to NR releases, I think that it matters how often the box is reset. If someone tries a CE and then reloads a NR after the testing, that's not the same as someone who lets the box sit for months on any given NR.

Without knowing the reset history, it's hard to equate user issues that might have a "uptime" component to them. I've had issues immediately after NR releases (1-3 days) and others that don't crop up for many weeks. Maybe those long term ones wouldn't have occurred if I reset the box more often as preventative maintenance, who knows. My old HR10-250 runs for about 6 months at a time without crashing so that is the uptime the HR2x should meet or exceed.

I agree with others that the TiVo boat has sailed on for good. There's too much animosity on both sides now.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

I think justlgi's point is well taken. (I am steering clear of the liar discussion.)

This board (and the HD DVR subforum in particular) is over-weighted with very knowledgeable people who participate in the CE program. Its not really representative of the user base as a whole

People (including myself) typically look at the world with rose colored glasses if they are personally invested in a product or a concept. This is pretty basic psychology/sociology.

Therefore, I suspect the user satisfaction rate with the HR21 among members of the CE program is significantly higher than users in general.

For similar reasons, I think those of us who who were really happy with out Ultimate TVs and Tivos think D* has not treated us very well by "forcing" us to a new platform to get Mpeg4. We are less likely to overlook problems withthe HR2x as a result.

I also think people who criticize the Hr2x boxes (or the CE program) are likely to be flamed or attacked.


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## swans (Jan 23, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> I think justlgi's point is well taken.
> 
> This board (and the HD DVR subforum in particular) is over-weighted with very knowledgeable people who participate in the CE program. Its not really representative of the user base as a whole
> 
> ...


I'm not part of the CE program. I have 3 HR20s. I had 1 HD Tivo about 18 months ago.

I think you have it the opposite. The ones that do all the crapping are the Tivo people whining about how much they want Tivo.

GIVE IT A FRICKING REST! There are plenty of us normal users who don't give a rat's ass about Tivo and our DirecTV HD-DVRs work just fine!


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

justlgi said:


> Obviously not my intent, but I do have to say that if someone were to say they've never had a blank recording, lockup, reboot or audio sync issues ... lets say in the last month then yes they are a liar.


I guess I am a liar, then. Thanks for pointing out what you cannot see.

I have never had a blank recording. And no lockups. About two months ago, I had an issue with my HR21 rebooting once a day but it never missed a recording and never locked up. That was a CE release and I took it back to the NR with no problems (and I reported it here). As for lip synch issues, I see no more nor less than I do with other HD devices, and I get them just from the nature of the beast (multiple paths). I fix them via my Sony receiver and they seem pretty consistent to me that I dont have to monkey with the settings.

Now, I do not call someone who is having problems a liar as different people will have different experiences. There are too many variables.

Now, if you could just realize that the same is true for the "other side" of issues, then I will not get mad at you for calling me a liar.

Once again, I have had more issues now and over the years with Tivo equipment than I have had with my HR's. Do I consider myself lucky? I guess so. But then again, I have friends who seem to be lucky, too.



justlgi said:


> Just look around out side of DBStalk it's not pretty for DTV. While I do get the point on cable cards and TiVo I'm sure it's probably no worse that the agony some here have gone through with D* contractors and signal strength alignment issues. At least install issues are acknowledged here (anything to not blame the DVR software). I know that if you're on the internet 9 outta 10 times you're doing 1 of 2 things praising or complaining. But if you look there is a disproportional number of complaints about the HR's than most.


Oh, and this is just nonsense.

Disproportional number of complaints? You been on tivocommunity lately? The complaint ratio is far higher on HD Tivos and cablecards than The HR's. Tivocommunity is just a litany of problems. And go look into the Comcast Tivo thing and see if you can find *anyone* satisfied.

Now, go to your local cable office and see the *****ing about in-house cable DVRs. My friend who has a Comcast box had to wait 90 minutes at the local office last week because the line of people bringning in defective equipment was that long.

Disproportional my eye.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

justlgi said:


> Obviously not my intent, but I do have to say that if someone were to say they've never had a blank recording, lockup, reboot or audio sync issues ... lets say in the last month then yes they are a liar.


Add me to the list of liars then too. 

I have had those problems in the past - you should have seen the HR20-700 complaints in mid/late 2006. But even then I didn't have them to the extent a lot of people did, and that box is still in service to this date.

Yeah, I also had two Directv Tivo boxes (Phillips DSR6000 models) starting in 2001, and until recently one was still in service. I've moved on.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I know that there's a real feeling that criticizing the HR2x or CE will get you flamed or attacked. If you see a flame going on, report it. We can't be everywhere. We try our best to make sure no one gets flamed or attacked for posting an honest opinion, even when we disagree with it.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

Don't get me wrong, I didn't want anyone to think that I WAS attacking or against the CE program. Actually if the platform were more stable on the fundamentals it would be even better!

I'm just stating that the "Mood" here is slanted pro HR and I think it's do todo with love for CE. 

Just putting it out there. Call it flame bait if you want. Hell, I posted a TiVo thread, what else could it have been?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

justlgi said:


> Obviously not my intent, but I do have to say that if someone were to say they've never had a blank recording, lockup, reboot or audio sync issues ... lets say in the last month then yes they are a liar.


I've had one lockup in the last 30 days but I'm also running CE software and "issues" come with this territory so i just grin and bear it.


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

Sirshagg said:


> I've had one lockup in the last 30 days but I'm also running CE software and "issues" come with this territory so i just grin and bear it.


Consider yourself lucky. Judging by the issues with the NR those on a CE are probably doing far better.


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

Boy, the Church of the Almighty Tivo vs. the Church of the Cutting Edge HR.:uglyhamme 

You can count on these forums for entertainment when there is no baseball to watch on a hot summer afternoon.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

justlgi said:


> Don't get me wrong, I didn't want anyone to think that I WAS attacking or against the CE program. Actually if the platform were more stable on the fundamentals it would be even better!
> 
> I'm just stating that the "Mood" here is slanted pro HR and I think it's do todo with love for CE.
> 
> Just putting it out there. Call it flame bait if you want. Hell, I posted a TiVo thread, what else could it have been?


Look. I had at one time 4 DirecTivo's in my house. Still have one going strong in fact (the other 3 died over time). The problem with some people is they get so tied up with a UI (they just have to have the Tivo guy dancing on the screen) that they can't get past it. Frankly I don't care what the UI is of my DVR. So long as it can record and I can watch my shows I just don't care what the UI is.

And I'll guess you'll call me a liar as well since I've had an HR20 almost 2 years now and haven't had any missed recordings since fall 2006. Not one problem with the HR21 since I got it almost a year ago. Of course I'm not talking about any CE related problems. I had a lot of problems with the last CE cycle and went back to national release. Thems the breaks. But I've never once had a problem with a national release in almost 2 years now.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> This board (and the HD DVR subforum in particular) is over-weighted with very knowledgeable people who participate in the CE program


There are many knowledgeable people here, yes. Not everyone participates in the CE program. Many folks here choose to work with the national release exclusively and many of the CE'ers have receivers that stay exclusively on the national release.


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## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Funny stuff. Rogers says that every quarter. Tivo was actually brought up in the last DirecTV investor meeting and it was basically shot down because their entire future strategy is to get to one receiver for everyone based on the HR series. Tivo is gone, will be gone and isn't coming back. But what else is Rogers going to say? He has to try to keep hope alive for the stock holders. He isn't going to say that DirecTV won't play with them anymore and they are sad.





Sirshagg said:


> I would be absolutely SHOCKED to see a new Tivo receiver for DirecTv at this point.


Agreed on both counts.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Yeah, I think that's pretty much the bottom line, Draconis.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

swans said:


> I'm not part of the CE program. I have 3 HR20s. I had 1 HD Tivo about 18 months ago.
> 
> I think you have it the opposite. The ones that do all the crapping are the Tivo people whining about how much they want Tivo.
> 
> GIVE IT A FRICKING REST! There are plenty of us normal users who don't give a rat's ass about Tivo and our DirecTV HD-DVRs work just fine!


Being disappointed with the HR21 does not make me a TIVO fanboy. I liked the Ultimate TV about as well (if only it did HD and ran a little cooler).

1. I think I get one point on my flaming and attacks argument, based upon your post alone.

2. Just so I know, which button do "normal users" push on the HR21 remote to make the slo-mo work properly (not after 5 seconds, if at all)?

3. Just so I know, which button do "normal users" push on the HR21 remote to change between the two live buffers during the NFL season?

4. Unless and until someone can answer those questions in a positive way, claims of mine "works just fine" are of little use to the rest of us.


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

justlgi said:


> Obviously not my intent, but I do have to say that if someone were to say they've never had a blank recording, lockup, reboot or audio sync issues ... lets say in the last month then yes they are a liar.
> 
> Just look around out side of DBStalk it's not pretty for DTV. While I do get the point on cable cards and TiVo I'm sure it's probably no worse that the agony some here have gone through with D* contractors and signal strength alignment issues. At least install issues are acknowledged here (anything to not blame the DVR software). I know that if you're on the internet 9 outta 10 times you're doing 1 of 2 things praising or complaining. But if you look there is a disproportional number of complaints about the HR's than most.
> 
> Around here those who disent get squashed until they go away ... why ... methinks the CE program that's all I'm saying


Call me a liar too then, 2 HR's and ZERO problems in longer than the last month.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Lets all move off the liar thing and talk substance. 

Larry -- You never have lip synch problems in HD? Not Ever? 

Does your slo-mo work properly?

Is DLB just not an issue for you?


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## swans (Jan 23, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> Being disappointed with the HR21 does not make me a TIVO fanboy. I liked the Ultimate TV about as well (if only it did HD and ran a little cooler).
> 
> 1. I think I get one point on my flaming and attacks argument, based upon your post alone.
> 
> ...


Crapping on the HR2x because you want your Tivo. Dual-live buffers is a Tivo patent!


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## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

justlgi said:


> No one ever said that the one receiver had to have the proven buggy D* software on it
> 
> Seems to me that the "Cutting Edgers" are the ones most vehemently opposed to any TiVo love. I think there may be a propensity to look past all of the issues simply because you think D* is letting you in on some of the action. Truth is if they were doing enough in-house we wouldn't be talking about freezes/lockups/reboots/blanks and the like and you'd be only testing the cool new stuff. But that isn't the case.


I participate in the CE program and I also have a TiVo R10. The R10 is currently in storage and I have no plans to reactivate it.

My participation in the CE program had nothing to do with this decision, I got tired of all the quirks in the TiVo software and happily went to the R15.

The TiVo platform is not nearly as stable as you seem to think and DirecTV had many good reasons for going to their own platform.

You seem to overlooking quite a few facts about the TiVo platform. Like you MUST have a phone line connected to receive software updates. Or the fact that it does not have caller ID, period. Also the unit has absolutely no interactive capabilities and you seem to have forgotten when they received a software upgrade from TiVo that caused the unit to reboot any time it encountered an error on the HDD. Many units went into a permanent reboot loop after the software download and had to be replaced.

Finally, let's not forget that the unit was programmed in Linux and the OS was kept on the HDD, making them easily hackable.


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## djanis3 (Aug 15, 2006)

I knew Tivo's days were numbered when they failed to implement DirecTV's proprietary black screen recording and frozen remote features into their latest boxes. Does anyone know a hack for these?


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

I can happily live without TIVO (with the wish list and the little guy with the antennas).

Want I want is a DVR that:

1. Records reliably, 
2. Populates the to do list in real time,
3. Has usable slo-mo,
4. Has DLB

I really, really don't care who writes the software, if it does those four things. In fact, I would pay $5 a month extra if my HR21 started doing those things.

FYI -- There are knowledgeable people on the board who insist the DLB is not a patent issue.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

swans said:


> Dual-live buffers is a Tivo patent!


No, it isn't. In fact, almost every other providers DVRs have the ability.

Search the DLB thread (it is currently locked for some reason) so you'll have to go back a few pages to find it.


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> I had a lot of problems with the last CE cycle and went back to national release. Thems the breaks. But I've never once had a problem with a national release in almost 2 years now.


What's the longest period of time your unit was on a NR? Just until the next CE cycle or was it on a NR for months?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Folks, you know I have to ask you to tone down the rhetoric a little bit. Please ask yourselves, haven't we gone down this road before? Let's not poke fun at each other, and let's not allow ourselves to fall into the same old arguments.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Draconis said:


> I participate in the CE program and I also have a TiVo R10. The R10 is currently in storage and I have no plans to reactivate it.
> 
> .......
> 
> ...


It may have taken a little while to get there, but the TIVO HR10-250 is now rock solid. It would have made more sense to build forward from a platform that had already been fully debugged.

Can you identify some of the "good reasons" users needed to go through the painful transition to the HR2xs?


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## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> Can you identify some of the "good reasons" users needed to go through the painful transition to the HR2xs?


I did, you cut them out when you quoted me.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

My HDVR has been siting in the garage for well over a year and I haven't missed it. I never used slow motion or DLB (other than a few times just to see what they did). PIG/PIL is more important to me (YMMV).


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## enkrates (Oct 8, 2007)

Draconis said:


> You seem to overlooking quite a few facts about the TiVo platform. Like you MUST have a phone line connected to receive software updates.


I'm not sure if you mean Directv tivos or all tivos for that claim. I have a Series 3 tivo with a local cable company, and I don't have it connected to a phone line at all. I've been using the Series 3 Tivo connected to the internet the whole time I've owned it, which I think is over a year now.


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> Lets all move off the liar thing and talk substance.
> 
> Larry -- You never have lip synch problems in HD? Not Ever?
> 
> ...


I dont use slo-me and I dont use DLB. It is all in the perception. For what I ask the unit to do, it performs exactly as I desire it to. I had lip sync issues but they were so long ago I cannot remember when, I had a few freeze ups this week and I rolled back to NR, but as far as missed recordings. Not a single problem that I know of, which is to say, there isnt a single show that I have wanted to absolutely record, that didnt record. Re-runs of Seinfeld, I have no idea if I missed any of those.


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## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

enkrates said:


> I'm not sure if you mean Directv tivos or all tivos for that claim. I have a Series 3 tivo with a local cable company, and I don't have it connected to a phone line at all. I've been using the Series 3 Tivo connected to the internet the whole time I've owned it, which I think is over a year now.


DirecTV TiVo's, the modern TiVo's can update using a IP connection but the DirecTV models never had that ability.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Draconis said:


> You seem to overlooking quite a few facts about the TiVo platform. Like you MUST have a phone line connected to receive software updates. Or the fact that it does not have caller ID, period. Also the unit has absolutely no interactive capabilities and you seem to have forgotten when they received a software upgrade from TiVo that caused the unit to reboot any time it encountered an error on the HDD. Many units went into a permanent reboot loop after the software download and had to be replaced.
> 
> Finally, let's not forget that the unit was programmed in Linux and the OS was kept on the HDD, making them easily hackable.


I was hoping your would break them out for me . Here they are:

1. Phone line connection. I don't think the new boxes require that. In any case, they could easily be modified to take updates down the stream.

2. Caller ID on your TV? For the land line phone no one has? This is not a feature anyone needs.

3. Interactive features. Upgrade required for the Tivo units. This is where D* should have spent its money.

4. Software upgrade/hard disk problems. I never had any significant problems with either the UTV or TIVO software updates. Maybe a reboot on the TIVO box once or twice over 18 months. Never any settings or programs lost

These are just not big problems, and, IMHO, are not "good" reasons to launch a multi-year hardware/software development program.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Nicholsen said:


> 2. Caller ID on your TV? For the land line phone no one has? This is not a feature anyone needs.


While I don't "need" caller ID on my TV, I really like having it. Yes, I'm still a luddite with a landline - I just don't like talking on a cell phone. If I'm going to have a long conversation, I'd much rather do it with a real handset. I get much more use out of the caller ID on my HR20 than I did from the DLB on my Tivo. Overall, I much prefer the UI on the HR20 to the Tivo. That's just my personal preference. Of course if I was experiencing the problems that other people are, I'm sure I'd feel differently about it.

Regardless, why does every thread have to turn into the same argument? For better or worse, D* decided to move away from Tivo and develop their own software. Arguing about which platform is better is pointless.


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

Nicholsen said:


> These are just not big problems, and, IMHO, are not "good" reasons to launch a multi-year hardware/software development program.


The answer is simple. DirecTV wanted more control over the features on the DVR than they had with Tivo and others developing the hardware and software which is why they brought all the receiver models Hardware and software in house. I know this isn't a great reason from a consumer perspective but it is why they did it.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> 2. Just so I know, which button do "normal users" push on the HR21 remote to make the slo-mo work properly (not after 5 seconds, if at all)?
> 
> 3. Just so I know, which button do "normal users" push on the HR21 remote to change between the two live buffers during the NFL season?
> 
> 4. Unless and until someone can answer those questions in a positive way, claims of mine "works just fine" are of little use to the rest of us.


You are confusing features with functionality. Specific functions and ways of doing things with Tivo are not relevant in any discussion where I say my HR20 and 21 and my R15's work "fine." Because they do, actually.


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## badmonkey (Nov 18, 2005)

Why is it so hard for some to believe that there are many of us that just don't have any problems with the HR2x's?

I have three HR20's for somewhere around a year now. I participated in one CE on one unit about six months ago. Otherwise, all three are on the NR's and are never reset unless there is an extended power outage. I've never missed a recording. I've never had a blank or gray recording. No lip sync issues - at least not any worse than any other HD receiver, regardless of provider. I've never had a single major problem.

Call me a liar if you want but I had for greater issues with my three HD TiVo's than I ever did with my HR20's.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

evan_s said:


> The answer is simple. DirecTV wanted more control over the features on the DVR than they had with Tivo and others developing the hardware and software which is why they brought all the receiver models Hardware and software in house. I know this isn't a great reason from a consumer perspective but it is why they did it.


Good post. I think the HR20/21 has very little to do with customer satisfaction, and lots to do with making content providers (and advertisers) happy.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

LameLefty said:


> You are confusing features with functionality. Specific functions and ways of doing things with Tivo are not relevant in any discussion where I say my HR20 and 21 and my R15's work "fine." Because they do, actually.


With all due respect, I think the HR20/Hr21 has slo-mo, it just doesn't work properly.


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

I wish people would stop taking a statistical sample of one, two, five or ten boxes of either species and extrapolating to the entire population.

Only Directv knows the failure rates. They ain't talking.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> 2. Caller ID on your TV? For the land line phone no one has? This is not a feature anyone needs.


Interestingly enough when I used to have a TiVo, this is the one feature I always made sure to get hacked in ..

I find Caller ID on my TV to be one of the little features I like the most .. and no hacking involved.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Interestingly enough when I used to have a TiVo, this is the one feature I always made sure to get hacked in ..
> 
> I find Caller ID on my TV to be one of the little features I like the most .. and no hacking involved.


I stand corrected. Well at least you guys can get your TIVO software downloads, and we can take item 1 of the list for you.

I am sure some people like caller ID on their TV. It would also be great if the DVR made popcorn, and could roam around the room like a robot vacuum cleaner. 

I am still waiting for a working slo-mo and DLB.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

record both and watch the next day :grin:


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> 3. Just so I know, which button do "normal users" push on the HR21 remote to change between the two live buffers during the NFL season?


This has nothing to do with the receivers working properly or not. DLB is a feature that DirecTv has decided not to implement for whatever reason. We may unhappy with that decision but saying the receiver doesn't work because it doesn't have this feature is just wrong.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

houskamp said:


> record both and watch the next day :grin:


I would normally say the same thing but I can understand that this is not a good solution for live sporting events. But then this really doesn't need to be yet another discussion on DLB so I'll :backtotop myself.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> This has nothing to do with the receivers working properly or not. DLB is a feature that DirecTv has decided not to implement for whatever reason. We may unhappy with that decision but saying the receiver doesn't work because it doesn't have this feature is just wrong.


That's fair.

How does the slo-mo work again?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> That's fair.
> 
> How does the slo-mo work again?


I don't know for sure since I don't really use slo-mo but I suspect you may have a valid gripe on this one.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

I think it's a second press of the play button. I actually had a need to do it right after I got "upgraded", and couldn't figure out how to do it. But I believe play twice is what I read after the fact.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Semi-OT, but I just noticed on my old SD DirecTV-Tivo receiver that there is now a "Recently Deleted" folder that you can browse and recover deleted programs from. Don't know how long it's been there, but I think it's a fairly recent software update.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> With all due respect, I think the HR20/Hr21 has slo-mo, it just doesn't work properly.


Mine works fine, thanks. Press and hold Play on the remote.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

eh, I was close.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Waiting for TiVo to return to DirecTv is like waiting in New York at the White Star Lines dock. While it may make you senti_mental_, it ain't going to happen.


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## Christopher Gould (Jan 14, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> Being disappointed with the HR21 does not make me a TIVO fanboy. I liked the Ultimate TV about as well (if only it did HD and ran a little cooler).
> 
> 1. I think I get one point on my flaming and attacks argument, based upon your post alone.
> 
> ...


which button on the tivo allows you to get to the menu screens while watching a recording without stopping the recording


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

2 x Hr20-700s and an HR21-700. No problems whatsoever - ever. I always CE. I still have a TiVo. It's in the kids' playroom. Still works fine. But compared to my HRs, it's just too painful to even deal with from a UI/performance standpoint. It plays the kids' shows. It's fine. That's where it will stay until it dies.


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## Ryan (Apr 24, 2002)

wow, late to the party here

Yeah, TiVo and DirecTV are on separate paths here; we HR10-250 owners are living under 'dual custody' (or is that duel custody) right now--although obviously DirecTV has ultimate 'supervision' of its charges.

Our main TV viewing units are HR2x units, with a couple old HR10 units relegated to recording some OTA and MPEG2 HD content. They both work well for us; the biggest shortfall of the HR2x units for me is the lack of dual buffers. I wouldn't call it a major omission, but of all the things they could add, it'd be my number one.

On the otherhand, TiVo is a good system, and with their somewhat open architecture, there's a bunch of 'aftermarket' opportunities with the platform. Being married to one closed system like a satellite provider certainly contrains the potential. Working with the cable industry has its pluses and minuses--like an infrastructure that the FCC occaisionally appears to try to keep open or, on the other hand, working with the cable industry.

My first DVR was a ReplayTV unit--first out of the box to support multiple providers, such as cable and satellite on one unit (which I do off and on for Philly sports). Maybe DirecTV will put that technology to good use (commercial skip, commercial skip...yeah, I know THAT's not coming back anytime soon.)


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Christopher Gould said:


> which button on the tivo allows you to get to the menu screens while watching a recording without stopping the recording


You don't have to stop the recording to get to Tivo menu screens, you have to stop the playback.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

LameLefty said:


> Mine works fine, thanks. Press and hold Play on the remote.


Which is why it's broken on the HR20, because there is no way to enter slo-mo mode at a precise spot.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Yup, slo-mo is press and hold the play button. For the record, I really hate Press-and-Hold and would much rather see the slo-mo and jump to beginning/end not use the Press-and-Hold method. That's probably one of a very few things I still appreciate more in my TiVo over the way the HR2xs function.


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## Dolly (Jan 30, 2007)

I never had a TiVo, but I heard they were good. Why did D* get away from them? I suppose more money for D*, if they have their own DVRs?


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> I don't know for sure since I don't really use slo-mo but I suspect you may have a valid gripe on this one.


Sirshagg, you are a gentleman and a scholar. If you were local, I would by you a beer.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

cartrivision said:


> Which is why it's broken on the HR20, because there is no way to enter slo-mo mode at a precise spot.


Or anywhere close. It is basically useless for sports, and a pain for movies.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Ryan said:


> wow, late to the party here
> 
> Yeah, TiVo and DirecTV are on separate paths here; we HR10-250 owners are living under 'dual custody' (or is that duel custody) right now--although obviously DirecTV has ultimate 'supervision' of its charges.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the party!

I think the the big test for TIVO will be the two way cable card / VOD upgrade later this year. If they can make it happen, they will be in a strong position. If they have serious problems in implementing that, who knows what happens.

Alliances in tech change quickly. Tivo was a strategic partner with D*. Now they are strategic partners with Comcast. 2 years from now? How about TIVO on your PlayStation 3, with content transmission over the internet. The XBox/NetFlix deal was just announced.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> Which is why it's broken on the HR20, because there is no way to enter slo-mo mode at a precise spot.


Oh, so Tivo displays the SMPTE time codes so you can hit the precise frame? Man, how did I miss the backdoor code for THAT feature for so many years? 

Slo-Mo starts 2 seconds after you press Play. It's not hard to use for sports or anything else. It's just one more reason to ***** and moan about when they look for something to complain about and pine for Tivo.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

LameLefty said:


> Oh, so Tivo displays the SMPTE time codes so you can hit the precise frame? Man, how did I miss the backdoor code for THAT feature for so many years?
> 
> Slo-Mo starts 2 seconds after you press Play. It's not hard to use for sports or anything else. It's just one more reason to ***** and moan about when they look for something to complain about and pine for Tivo.


You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

The slo-mo is useless for sports. If you want to see a close play you back up, stab at the button, wait for several seconds, miss the play, get slo mo of the TD dance. Back up again, try again , start slo mo early, watch 5-10 seconds of stuff you don't want to see in slo-mo, which takes forever. Meanwhile, your buddies start to jeer and throw food at you.

The TIVO does slo-mo perfectly. The HR21 does not. It's that simple. If you can't admit that, you are not being reasonable. That doesn't make the Hr21 a POS. But it means it has a flaw that needs to be fixed.

It's really true that you have to bow to the greatness of the HR2x (and its ranks of defenders) if you are going to be a poster here. That's why many people are skeptical of most posters who claim that their units "work perfectly." If a poster insists the slo-mo works perfectly, I take everything else they say with a grain of salt.

If they admit slo-mo is a work in progress, you know they have an open mind.


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## rustynails (Apr 24, 2008)

Nicholsen said:


> Being disappointed with the HR21 does not make me a TIVO fanboy. I liked the Ultimate TV about as well (if only it did HD and ran a little cooler).
> 
> 1. I think I get one point on my flaming and attacks argument, based upon your post alone.
> 
> ...


Mine works just fine as D defines fine. My Hr21 has been great as far as recording, no lock ups, no rebooting, etc. 
That doesn't mean that I love my HR21 because I don't. E has the better hardware with the VIP 722 with REAL functionality such as you describe in your comments, such as the live buffers and real slow motion, etc.
I have no experience with TIVO so I can't comment on that issue.
But if D is listening, please give me true functionality in a DVR! I know some people in this forum see absolutely nothing wrong with how the HR's work now and that is fine also. I just disagree!


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## fikuserectus (Aug 19, 2006)

Well,

I like my Directv DVR (HR20-100) more than my old Tivo. The remote is nicer and I just have had less problems than with my Tivo. I do have to reboot my HR20 every once and awhile, but I had to do that with my Tivo as well.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

I understand the D* contract on Sunday Ticket expires in 2010.

ST subs pay $250-$350 a year on top of everything else, and are pretty intense about seeing the games the way they want to see them. Perhaps that will be the thing that actually gets D* to fix the slo-mo and DLB problems with the HR21


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
> 
> The slo-mo is useless for sports. If you want to see a close play you back up, stab at the button, wait for several seconds, miss the play, get slo mo of the TD dance. Back up again, try again , start slo mo early, watch 5-10 seconds of stuff you don't want to see in slo-mo, which takes forever. Meanwhile, your buddies start to jeer and throw food at you.
> 
> ...


You have a lot to learn about the difference between opinion and fact if you believe your concept of "perfectly" is factual. It is not. It is opinion, period. I use Slow Motion just about every weekend of the fall, in both college and professional games, and have no trouble at all. That is MY definition of "perfectly."

As for taking me with a grain of salt, please do. I've had my share of issues with my boxes before the CE process was started, along with issues since then. But I have not had serious issues with national release software for the HR20-700 in over a year. It just works. Similarly, I've been using the HR21-700 since last August and haven't had problems with national release software since the box was released. Grain of salt or not, that is FACT (versus your opinions with regard to Slow Motion).


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

LameLefty said:


> You have a lot to learn about the difference between opinion and fact if you believe your concept of "perfectly" is factual. It is not. It is opinion, period. I use Slow Motion just about every weekend of the fall, in both college and professional games, and have no trouble at all. That is MY definition of "perfectly."


All I can say is that you have a pretty high tolerance for error for a rocket scientist.


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## Hansen (Jan 1, 2006)

Never say never. You never know what events might take place in the future that could alter a busniness' strategy and cause a sudden shift. For example, while DirecTV appears to be on a path toward receiver inhouse development/self sufficiency, TIVO or some other company for that matter could develop a patented technology that turns the DVR world on end and causes or requires DirecTV to change what is currently doing. Future is hard to predict. To say never, is a bit strong.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Hansen said:


> Never say never. You never know what events might take place in the future that could alter a busniness' strategy and cause a sudden shift. For example, while DirecTV appears to be on a path toward receiver inhouse development/self sufficiency, TIVO or some other company for that matter could develop a patented technology that turns the DVR world on end and causes or requires DirecTV to change what is currently doing. Future is hard to predict. To say never, is a bit strong.


I agree...it could be a financial deal by Tivo that just makes too much sense to pass up. Will it happen? It's more likely with Liberty than News Corp...but that means very, very little.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> All I can say is that you have a pretty high tolerance for error for a rocket scientist.


Error? How so? You're the one saying it can't be done and I'm saying I do it all the time with no issues. The fact that I can hit the instant replay button and manage to watch the chosen play in slow motion effectively but you cannot seems to indicate to me that any error is on your part, not mine or my equipment.

But then again, according to some I'm a liar because I haven't had blank or grey recordings lately, too.

So just take everything I post with a grain of salt, eh?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nicholsen said:


> 2. Just so I know, which button do "normal users" push on the HR21 remote to make the slo-mo work properly (not after 5 seconds, if at all)?


Most "normal users" don't use slo-mo. It's just a novelty really. Even among some friends that are big sports watching, they don't bother with Slo-mo because it just gets in the way of watching the game for them.



> 3. Just so I know, which button do "normal users" push on the HR21 remote to change between the two live buffers during the NFL season?


Again, most "normal users" don't even know what dual live buffers are. Not saying it's not a good feature but I defy you to find Joe Sixpack or Grandma that either knows what it is or has ever used it.



> 4. Unless and until someone can answer those questions in a positive way, claims of mine "works just fine" are of little use to the rest of us.


So just because you don't like the slo-mo or lack of DLB means that it's doesn't work fine for the rest of us? They record my shows and I watch them. Flawlessly. Thus they work fine for me.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nicholsen said:


> Lets all move off the liar thing and talk substance.
> 
> Larry -- You never have lip synch problems in HD? Not Ever?


Very rarely. I'm guessing though that you aren't aware that lip sync issues are just a nature of the HD technology and nothing really to do with the DVR. Shoulda seen the lip sync issues back...oh...6-7 years ago waaaaayyyyy before there even was a DVR that could record HD. I'm talking live HD, you know, the 3 hours a day there actually was HD across the whole 6 channels in the world that actually did HD.

Maybe one should look up "lip sync issues on the HR10-250" in the Tivo Community archive. Ahhh, but we wouldn't want to do that, now would we.



> Does your slo-mo work properly?


Honestly can't say. Totally novelty and useless feature to me, and I'm a big football and hockey fan. Tried it VCRs back in the 90s and on my first Tivo's back 8 years ago. Again, useless to me so I can't comment.



> Is DLB just not an issue for you?


Not at all. And I've had Sunday Ticket for 9 years now. Sure, I used it all the time in the past during games but when I first got HD in the "dark days" before there were HD DVRs I got used to not having DLB. Even to this day I have a non DVR (H21) just for Sunday Ticket because I don't want a DVR slowing me down during the games. Sure I'd welcome DLB if it came, but it's not something I need since *I don't watch live TV* except during Sunday Ticket and as stated above, I don't need it.

See, we're not all like you and view things as "broken" simply because Slo-mo isn't up to your specs and there is no DLB.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Dr. Booda said:


> What's the longest period of time your unit was on a NR? Just until the next CE cycle or was it on a NR for months?


At last a month if not more. I haven't been all that active in the CE since April or so due to being busy and frankly just not watching TV. I think we've had the TV on about once a week since mid May. Over the holidays I don't think I had a CE at all for about 4-5 weeks.

And if you think about it I should have *more* problems being on a CE then a NR since a CE can be (and they are at times) high risk and can cause problems.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nicholsen said:


> I understand the D* contract on Sunday Ticket expires in 2010.
> 
> ST subs pay $250-$350 a year on top of everything else, and are pretty intense about seeing the games the way they want to see them. Perhaps that will be the thing that actually gets D* to fix the slo-mo and DLB problems with the HR21


Hmmmm. Hasn't been a problem for them the past 3-4 years without Tivo....


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Hmmmm. Hasn't been a problem for them the past 3-4 years without Tivo....


Bon:

What do you think the ST subs have been using the HR10-250s for? ST HD has been in MPEG 2 until this fall for a reason.

I bought an HR10-250 in August 2006 because it had DLB, HD and wanted to avoid the HR20, based upon the bad press. I got 2 great NFL seasons out of it.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Lame:

Maybe I should hire a rocket scientist to run the slo-mo on my DVR in exchange for free beer.  

This is one race I would run for pink slips if we had the boxes in the same room to compare.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> So just because you don't like the slo-mo or lack of DLB means that it's doesn't work fine for the rest of us? They record my shows and I watch them. Flawlessly. Thus they work fine for me.


I don't think I ever suggested such a thing. If you are happy with a DVR that has a feature set about 10 years behind the competition, I am sure the HR2x will be fine.

All of the HR21 features I never use work fine for me as well. I don't use them, and they have never failed to work perfectly for me.

What's your point?


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## 2dogz (Jun 14, 2008)

Hansen said:


> Never say never. You never know what events might take place in the future that could alter a busniness' strategy and cause a sudden shift. For example, while DirecTV appears to be on a path toward receiver inhouse development/self sufficiency, TIVO or some other company for that matter could develop a patented technology that turns the DVR world on end and causes or requires DirecTV to change what is currently doing. Future is hard to predict. To say never, is a bit strong.


Never say never. Financial crisis, energy induced inflation, US in prolonged recession that drags down Europe and Latin America. Directv subscriber base contracts and revenue stream slows. Budget cuts cause slowing of inhouse hardware and software development and turnover of personnel vested in HR2x DVRs. Beancounters, who must service debt for newly launched satellites, look for cost effective ways to outsource receiver development that will make subscriber base happy. What was their name?

Have you noticed how tivo has entered the vernacular as a verb meaning to record a TV show, the same way that to Xerox means to make a copy of a paper document?

_I'm just saying_. I don't have a dog in this fight.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nicholsen said:


> Bon:
> 
> What do you think the ST subs have been using the HR10-250s for? ST HD has been in MPEG 2 until this fall for a reason.
> 
> I bought an HR10-250 in August 2006 because it had DLB, HD and wanted to avoid the HR20, based upon the bad press. I got 2 great NFL seasons out of it.


One needs to be reminded that DirecTV introduced the R15 nearly 4 years ago now. No DLB has been an issue long before the HD DVRs came out. There has been no great exodus because of no DLB. You may value this feature highly, but it's obviously not the "deal breaker" to 99% of the user base out there.

You also need to be reminded that at their peak there were only around 200K HR10-250's in service and many of those were multiples in the same house. By contract Sunday Ticket has north of 2 million subs and certainly many of the HR10's subs didn't have Sunday Ticket. Again, you're taking your experience and imprinting it as reality for millions of people when it's not the case. Good luck with that.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Maybe one should look up "lip sync issues on the HR10-250" in the Tivo Community archive. Ahhh, but we wouldn't want to do that, now would we.


Don't need to.

Of course I have lip synch issues, on both boxes. Posters who say the Hr2x never has lip synch issues are kidding themselves. Its a major problem with HD broadcasting, and you never really know whether its the brocaster, D* or the DVR.



bonscott87 said:


> Not at all. And I've had Sunday Ticket for 9 years now. Sure, I used it all the time in the past during games but when I first got HD in the "dark days" before there were HD DVRs I got used to not having DLB. *Even to this day I have a non DVR (H21) just for Sunday Ticket because I don't want a DVR slowing me down during the games.* Sure I'd welcome DLB if it came, but it's not something I need since *I don't watch live TV* except during Sunday Ticket and as stated above, I don't need it.


It seems clear you never had a HR10-250. A football game only last 60 minutes without commercials. You can easily watch 4-5 games.



bonscott87 said:


> See, we're not all like you and view things as "broken" simply because Slo-mo isn't up to your specs and there is no DLB.


This may explain how this kind of stuff fell through the cracks for two years at D*. Maybe the CE program needs some people who expect the in-house DVRs to work really, really well? Like well enough to be able watch the NFL on the DVR instead of live on another HD receiver.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nicholsen said:


> I don't think I ever suggested such a thing. If you are happy with a DVR that has a feature set about 10 years behind the competition, I am sure the HR2x will be fine.
> 
> All of the HR21 features I never use work fine for me as well. I don't use them, and they have never failed to work perfectly for me.
> 
> What's your point?


Hmmmm, well you said, and I quote:



> 4. Unless and until someone can answer those questions in a positive way, claims of mine "works just fine" are of little use to the rest of us.


To me this is saying that unless Slo-mo and DLB are addressed to your satisfaction that people that say the HR2x work just find are of little use. Thus you are saying that I can't like my HR2x or think it works fine because Slo-mo and DLB don't work or aren't a feature.

And the HR2x is 10 years behind the times simply because it has to DLB? Ummm, ok... Oh, how's that free space indicator or caller ID coming on the Tivo? Ahhhh, whose stuck in time 10 years ago again. 

Hey, no troubles. Think what you want. It's all a conspiracy against Tivo. We know the drill.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Ok, my last post for you since this thread is heading for a lock down...



Nicholsen said:


> Don't need to.
> 
> Of course I have lip synch issues, on both boxes. Posters who say the Hr2x never has lip synch issues are kidding themselves. Its a major problem with HD broadcasting, and you never really know whether its the brocaster, D* or the DVR.


Pretty easy to tell actually. Just flip over to a *non* DVR or OTA and see the same thing. Viola, broadcast issue. Most lip sync issues I have ever seen were on locals and it was OTA as well (and not on a DVR). Thus an issue with the local station. This is very, very easy to check.



> It seems clear you never had a HR10-250. A football game only last 60 minutes without commercials. You can easily watch 4-5 games.


5 DirecTivo's in the house at one point thank you very much. Ummmmm, watching 4-5 games at a time is no fun for me thank you. Since I have all the stats streaming live on my laptop during the games and player tracker popping up player scores and plays live on screen (yea, try to do that on a DirecTivo) why would I do this? Commercial comes on flip to another game. Are you saying that I can't watch Sunday Ticket without DLB? Give me a break. I HAVE NO NEED FOR IT. Is that ok with you, can I get your approval on that?  :eek2:


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Most "normal users" don't use slo-mo. It's just a novelty really. Even among some friends that are big sports watching, they don't bother with Slo-mo because it just gets in the way of watching the game for them.


Excellent point. Before I read it in this thread, I couldn't even tell you how to activate slo-mo on the HR2x. I just don't use it, because I see no point. Any really big play will usually be replayed in slow motion in the broadcast, keeping with the flow of the game. And if I really want to see some details, I'll just press Pause and use the FF and REW buttons to step through the video. Slo-mo is completely useless to me.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Are you saying that I can't watch Sunday Ticket without DLB? Give me a break. I HAVE NO NEED FOR IT. Is that ok with you, can I get your approval on that?  :eek2:


Of course it's ok with the other poster ... he's the one who had no use for caller ID on his TiVo , remember that post from way back in this very thread?


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## Seismo (Jun 22, 2007)

I loved my Tivo. I loved my DLB.
When I got my HR20 I cursed DirecTV every day for weeks on end. 
But I started to get used to it and now I think I actually prefer the interface to the Tivo. I still miss DLB for when I'm surfing between two football games on sunday afternoon but I've just gotten used to it not being there for me. 

A year ago whenever I would see these "Tivo is coming back to DirecTV" threads I would jump in like a kid on Christmas. But I know now that it's all just wishful thinking on the part of the Tivo fanboys - which I was one of not that long ago. Just let it go and realize that it ain't gonna happen....you'll be happier for it.
DirecTV isn't going to just throw away all the R&D and the leaps and bounds they've made on the HR2x.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Like I posted back on page 2, the only way I could ever see TiVo and DIRECTV back in a relationship is if DIRECTV wants to extend the current licensing arrangement with TiVo. There's really no need otherwise ...


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> Of course it's ok with the other poster ... he's the one who had no use for caller ID on his TiVo , remember that post from way back in this very thread?


I do want that free space indicator in the worst way. It is a major flaw in the HR10-250.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Pretty easy to tell actually. Just flip over to a *non* DVR or OTA and see the same thing. Viola, broadcast issue. Most lip sync issues I have ever seen were on locals and it was OTA as well (and not on a DVR). Thus an issue with the local station. This is very, very easy to check.


Thanks Bon, I think I knew that. Once you are in playback mode (which is how you and I watch almost all TV) you never know what went wrong.



bonscott87 said:


> Commercial comes on flip to another game. Are you saying that I can't watch Sunday Ticket without DLB? Give me a break. I HAVE NO NEED FOR IT. Is that ok with you, can I get your approval on that?  :eek2:


I am in favor of you having fun with the television viewing device of your choice in the privacy of your own home. No approval required from me. I live in San Francisco for a reason. We have very few rules here prohibiting fun.

This is a thread about TIVO returning, maybe. Dead horse icons are welcome, LOL, but attacking anyone who isn't 100% on the HR2x bandwagon is not.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> attacking anyone who isn't 100% on the HR2x bandwagon is not.


If you really think that people get defensive about your posts because you're "not 100% on the HR2x bandwagon" then you really should step back and take a look at what you're posting.


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## Groundhog45 (Nov 10, 2005)

I think the differences that people see in the performance of their HR2x boxes is sometimes the result of outside factors (we've discussed this before). Things such as dish alignment, coax connections, or line of sight issues. I use the Sonora polarity locker to power the LNBs and replaced all of the coax connectors with compression fittings. I have very few problems with any of my boxes.

I do use slo-mo occasionally when there is a cute/sexy girl on the screen.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

LameLefty said:


> Oh, so Tivo displays the SMPTE time codes so you can hit the precise frame? Man, how did I miss the backdoor code for THAT feature for so many years?
> 
> Slo-Mo starts 2 seconds after you press Play. It's not hard to use for sports or anything else. It's just one more reason to ***** and moan about when they look for something to complain about and pine for Tivo.


Oh, so the DirecTV DVR displays the SMPTE time codes so you can hit the awful press-and-hold slo-mo button precisely two seconds before the frame you want to slo-mo from????   

If you want to post a smartass counterargument to the widely voiced opinion that the pres-and-hold slo-mo activation is a poorly thought out and essentially broken function, your smartass reply should at least be logical and not easily turned around and applied to your supposed solution for dealing with press-and-hold slo-mo farce.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Folks .. This is starting to sound more like a religious debate than a civil discussion. It's time to right the ship or it's gonna sink.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

Yeah, let's get back to the subject, the OP thought Tivo was extending an olive branch to DirecTV, we then found out Tivo does that every time when they make a comment to their investors, therefore nothing of any value to us.

The only valuable information I have seen so far related to this issue is Tivo lost over 500k DirecTiVo accounts last FY.


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## SParker (Apr 27, 2002)

I actually like the DIRECTV software better than TiVo now.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

^And I recognize that avatar from TCF.

I've owned DVRs for nearly 8 year and I've used Slo Mo less than 10 times total. Why should I when they usually do it to my satisfaction on the broadcast itself? But, I do find the Slo Mo on the HR20 fine.

For me, the more DVRs the better. When I first started with TiVo, I didn't really feel the need to try any other DVRs, basically because at that time it would have cost a lot of money. I've come around to realize there's really no reason to limit myself to one platform. I actually prefer the Media Center Edition 2005 over other DVR platforms, too bad I can only record OTA HD on it and not DIRECTV HD.

And as far as the "poor TiVo" schtick, it's really up to them to make sure who they do their deals with and that they get done. I'd heard that the reason it took TiVo and Comcast so long to come to an agreement was that TiVo wanted to cull the data on viewing habits and Comcast insisted since they were _their_ customers, they were entitled to that data. Makes sense to me since Comcast did pay the Subscriber Acquistion Costs. TiVo eventually relented, but if that's the same approach they took with DIRECTV, no wonder DIRECTV told TiVo "GFY!".


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> Excellent point. Before I read it in this thread, I couldn't even tell you how to activate slo-mo on the HR2x. I just don't use it, because I see no point. Any really big play will usually be replayed in slow motion in the broadcast, keeping with the flow of the game. And if I really want to see some details, I'll just press Pause and use the FF and REW buttons to step through the video. Slo-mo is completely useless to me.


Excellent point???? A legitmate flaw of the HR2X series is pointed out and the response regarding the feature that is missing or broke is, "well I don't use it, its a novelty".

FWIW, overall, I prefer the D* software to the Tivo but these kinds of responses are why this site is getting the repuation its getting.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> Oh, so the DirecTV DVR displays the SMPTE time codes so you can hit the awful press-and-hold slo-mo button precisely two seconds before the frame you want to slo-mo from????
> 
> If you want to post a smartass counterargument to the widely voiced opinion that the pres-and-hold slo-mo activation is a poorly thought out and essentially broken function, your smartass reply should at least be logical and not easily turned around and applied to your supposed solution for dealing with press-and-hold slo-mo farce.


I was specifically addressing your complaint that it is impossible to hit the "precise" spot (your word, not mine) to start slo-mo. My comment that jumping back six second with the Instant Replay button and press/holding Play will reliably start slo-mo 4 seconds prior the the "live" point where I hit Instant Replay. How "precise" do you want it? My process works for me and is repeatable. It may not be the preferred solution for people pining for Tivo and a dedicated button with a discrete IR code, but it works and is usable.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> I'm guessing though that you aren't aware that lip sync issues are just a nature of the HD technology and nothing really to do with the DVR.


More correctly, it's due to the complexity of the technology, and incorrect application of it. HD doesn't mean you HAVE to have lip sync issues, it just means that there's more variables, and therefore more opportunities for the players involved to screw it up. You can't say that it's "nothing really to do with the DVR". Sometimes it is. In the case of the HR2x, there do seem to be many more people having sync problems with that box than other sources, just based on the reports in various forums at AVS. Although I'm not certain that it's related, they do have a known issue with their framing of audio that causes very slow re-syncs when the user pauses, FF, RR, changes channels, etc... anything that interrupts the audio output. I don't remember the exact details, (they can be found in the very long Onkyo 875 thread, and probably others), but DirecTV is not properly completing the last audio frame, or something like that, which gives the the receiving hardware difficulty in syncing back up with the stream once it resumes. Onkyo issued a firmware update that helps the receiver deal with non-compliant implementations like this, but the fact remains that DirecTV is the one that wasn't adhering to the spec, based on the info I've read.

All that being said, it's moot at this point to debate the strengths/weaknesses of the TiVos and HRx series. That ship has sailed. There is no question in MY mind that if they had stuck with TiVo, they would be light years ahead of where they are now. The fact that there are people on both sides, and pros cons to each, when comparing a practically 10 year old box to a current one, says something in itself. But DirecTV has made their choice, and it's very unlikely that's going to change. Lets just hope they can continue making up lost ground, and get back on top as far as hardware is concerned.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

bidger said:


> ... I'd heard that the reason it took TiVo and Comcast so long to come to an agreement was that TiVo wanted to cull the data on viewing habits and Comcast insisted since they were _their_ customers...


That wasn't necessarily what some posters here are talking about, rather the implementation of the Comcast Tivo boxes so far has been failure, largely due to how the development and technical assistance are arranged.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

I wasn't talking about the actual deployment, I was talking about how long it actually took them to come to an agreement to offer an integrated box. Mike Ramsay was reassigned his position at TiVo due to his unwillingness to work out the arrangement.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Regarding lip-sync, keep in mind that it most certainly does not have to be the fault of the DVR (whether TiVo or DVR Plus). Many local networks and even DIRECTV anbd Dish use video/audio processing equipment that separates the audio from the video for re-encoding, and this has the potential to cause all sorts of problems. (There were threads on this last year - I'm not always good with the terminology, but you get the general idea.) ("General Idea?" Salute.)


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Drew2k said:


> Regarding lip-sync, keep in mind that it most certainly does not have to be the fault of the DVR


Yes, very true. But it _can_ be. Obviously, output from a DVR is going to be more problematic, simply because there are so many variables in the chain. But if a disproportionate amount of issues are reported with a _specific_ DVR, then there's a decent chance that it is at least a contributing factor. I get the _idea_ that were were referencing a movie, but sadly it was lost on me.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

raott said:


> Excellent point???? A legitmate flaw of the HR2X series is pointed out and the response regarding the feature that is missing or broke is, "well I don't use it, its a novelty".


It's an excellent point as to why everyone doesn't hate the HR2x series. Slo-mo is inconsequential to me, so why should I hate the DVR because it does a poor job with it?


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## jodyguercio (Aug 16, 2007)

<hearing sound of ringing telephone> Hello Microsoft vs Apple debate, you'd like to remind everyone that what works for some might not work for others. Thanks for the reminder. Goodbye.

Some people like Tivo and some people have no problems with the HR2x series. Tivo isnt coming back to directv so we either use what we are given and deal with it or we find another provider that works for you and change. Are any of them really perfect?

:nono2:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

raott said:


> Excellent point???? A legitmate flaw of the HR2X series is pointed out and the response regarding the feature that is missing or broke is, "well I don't use it, its a novelty".


If it is indeed a "flaw" I have had 2 HR20-700's for about 2 years...and see no such "flaw"...it works the way it is documented to work. Furthermore, as a former HR10-250 user, I greatly welcomed the transitional change from my old boatanchor of a DVR - I had a long but distinguished list of dislikes on the Tivobox.


> FWIW, overall, I prefer the D* software to the Tivo but these kinds of responses are why this site is getting the repuation its getting.


Its "reputation" is that of being one of the best resources for information on Dish and DirecTv user services and products....heck...even other sites point here for many things because that's indeed the case. I can live with that.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

:backtotop please. I think we can all agree that we are on different sides of this issue, some pro-TiVo and some pro-DIRECTV. I ask you to be a bit more polite. I would prefer not to close this thread.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> :backtotop please. I think we can all agree that we are on different sides of this issue, some pro-TiVo and some pro-DIRECTV. I ask you to be a bit more polite. I would prefer not to close this thread.


yes we should be polite rather than perlite (volcanic type rock like pumace) which is abrasive.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

Nicholsen said:


> Lets all move off the liar thing and talk substance.
> 
> Larry -- You never have lip synch problems in HD? Not Ever?
> 
> ...


1. have expierenced on both the HR2X's I have and the HR10's I still use so your point here is what exactly?

2. slo-mo who cares, not a big item here, never used it on either the HR2X or the HR10

3. DLB again, very low on the priority list, don;t need it here the version for getting it to work on the HR2X is suitable for the few times I use it. would rather see then work on other functionality enhancements

Have both series up and running still - have more issues with the HR10 with 6.4A on it then I have had with the HR2X's running the lastest drops of code.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

wingrider01 said:


> 2. slo-mo who cares, not a big item here, never used it on either the HR2X or the HR10


More than a few times I have seen comments just like this and they drive me nuts. Look, if a feature was introduced then it should work, and work correctly. Whether or not YOU use / want the feature is irrelavent - it was implemented so it should function properly.

That being said I've rarely tried to use slo-mo so I can't say if it works or not - I just don't know.


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## rustynails (Apr 24, 2008)

Sirshagg said:


> More than a few times I have seen comments just like this and they drive me nuts. Look, if a feature was introduced then it should work, and work correctly. Whether or not YOU use / want the feature is irrelavent - it was implemented so it should function properly.
> 
> That being said I've rarely tried to use slo-mo so I can't say if it works or not - I just don't know.


Yea it works but very poorly. My cheap DVD player has several speeds in slo- mo and it works great. Point being why did D decide to even put it in the DVR's?


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Here's the challenge though: If Bobby hates his DVR because Slo-Mo isn't working for him, why should Susie, who doesn't use Slo-Mo, hate _*her*_ DVR? The people who use a feature and don't get what they wanted have every right to hate the DVR if they want to, but others who have no use for a feature should not be slammed for not also hating the DVR... I think that's all the responses were intending to say ...


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## wesmills (Apr 7, 2003)

I highly doubt TiVo will return to DirecTV, even under Liberty. For all the talk (by the providers) about satellite being that much different than cable, having TiVo on both platforms might prove to be a disadvantage for the providers that offer it. TiVo would love this situation, but why would one provider (say, DirecTV) choose TiVo after having already dropped it for another platform they've marketed as superior for at least 4 years?

Yes, I miss TiVo on DirecTV. I still have several DirecTiVos of varying types on my account, and use them daily. There's no HD because no one in my household is interested in the new interface, and the HR10-250 was too expensive at the time. I even keep a spare R10 in the closet, unactivated, to replace a live receiver at a moment's notice.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as this thread has proven, so no one should be getting bashed for preferring HR2x/R15/R16 to TiVo. If we didn't have preferences, we wouldn't need two satellite companies, a cable company, and FiOS/UVerse. And that's "Just for TV."


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> Here's the challenge though: If Bobby hates his DVR because Slo-Mo isn't working for him, why should Susie, who doesn't use Slo-Mo, hate _*her*_ DVR? The people who use a feature and don't get what they wanted have every right to hate the DVR if they want to, but others who have no use for a feature should not be slammed for not also hating the DVR... I think that's all the responses were intending to say ...


I have nothing to add, because you hit it exactly. +1 and all that fun stuff.


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## Dolly (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow did this thread really take off :lol: I think it is a case now of letting everyone agree to disagree and play nice with each other


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## justlgi (Apr 11, 2008)

Doug Brott said:


> Folks .. This is starting to sound more like a religious debate than a civil discussion. It's time to right the ship or it's gonna sink.


This is a religion.

:gott: "oh mighty TiVo god forgive those who have forsaken thee"

:lol:

EDIT: Adding "TiVo vs HR" to money, politics and religion as things not to bring up in polite conversation.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

justlgi said:


> EDIT: Adding "TiVo vs HR" to money, politics and religion as things not to bring up in polite conversation.


Much like emacs vs vi...

vi, of course, being superior.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Drew2k said:


> Here's the challenge though: If Bobby hates his DVR because Slo-Mo isn't working for him, why should Susie, who doesn't use Slo-Mo, hate _*her*_ DVR? The people who use a feature and don't get what they wanted have every right to hate the DVR if they want to, but others who have no use for a feature should not be slammed for not also hating the DVR... I think that's all the responses were intending to say ...


Mr. Kissinger has spoken and is correct.


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Some of the most prominent Cutting Edgers used to have TiVos in their homes. I could list you ten or fifteen off the top of my head. (I had two myself.) They know what TiVo is and they have moved on.


With all due respect Stuart, I hate when people discredit a future TIvo based on knowing what "Tivo is"". when really they are basing it laregely on what TIvo was, 4-5 years ago.

If TIVO and DTV worked together on a new product, I think alot of the issues people had in the past could be resolved. But often the response is " i'd never want to go back to how slow that was". but a new Dtivo would not be a re-launch of the hr10.

The comcast Tivo absolutley has had many issues and delays, but it will have PIG, and many of the "improvements" people think the HR20 has over the HR10. (I saw screen prints and beta review online somewhere a few months ago)

There is every reason to believe it would be faster than the HR10.

Maybe it wouldn't but i can't discredit a theoretical product based on one that came out 5 years ago and was handicapped by un-enabled features.

It seems to me after nearly 3 years the DVR+ line still has far too many reliability issues for too many people to think it couldn't be done better by someone.

Maybe Tivo isn't that someone....But I'd like to see them have the chance.

However, i don't see this happeneing short of a DTV purchase of Tivo.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

mikewolf13 said:


> I hate when people discredit a future TIvo based on knowing what "Tivo is"". when really they are basing it laregely on what TIvo was, 4-5 years ago.


+1. In fact, the original DirecTiVos came out in 2000, and the HR10, to the best of my understanding, wasn't even a "true" series 2 machine. It was more like a series 1.5. It was essentially equal to my series 1 boxes in terms of features and speed, except it had HD and OTA tuners. If DirecTV had stuck with TiVo, and they had developed a new version at the time they developed the HR20, I don't think there would have been nearly as many issues. But it didn't work out that way.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

DarinC said:


> +1. In fact, the original DirecTiVos came out in 2000, and the HR10, to the best of my understanding, wasn't even a "true" series 2 machine. It was more like a series 1.5. It was essentially equal to my series 1 boxes in terms of features and speed, except it had HD and OTA tuners. If DirecTV had stuck with TiVo, and they had developed a new version at the time they developed the HR20, I don't think there would have been nearly as many issues. But it didn't work out that way.


That is one of the problems I believe. DirecTV needed an MPEG4 HD box NOW! And, as is readily apparent, TiVo is one slow developer of software. I'm not sure it would have been done by now, let alone for the launch of MPEG4 HD service.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

wingrider01 said:


> 2. slo-mo *who cares*, not a big item here, never used it on either the HR2X or the HR10


Who cares? Well apparently someone does. Just becasue you don't use it doesn't mean nodoby uses it.



Drew2k said:


> The people who use a feature and don't get what they wanted have every right to hate the DVR if they want to, but others who have no use for a feature should not be slammed for not also hating the DVR...


Agree 100%



Drew2k said:


> I think that's all the responses were intending to say ...


That _may_ be the intent but it's not the way I read it.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

gregjones said:


> Much like emacs vs vi...
> 
> vi, of course, being superior.


Old School all the way


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

gregjones said:


> Much like emacs vs vi...
> 
> vi, of course, being superior.


Of course. And vim is even superiorer.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Old School all the way


I'm with him!


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## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

justlgi said:


> "TiVo's tale of two satcasters"
> 
> from http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ia50cdcb373435f1bee17629d253c7afd
> 
> _"With the ownership by Liberty now of DirecTV, it's a somewhat different environment -- I hope a more friendly environment than the one we faced when News Corp. was the majority owner of DirecTV," Rogers told Wall Street analysts at the annual Collins Stewart Growth Conference._


Tivo might be the only chance to ever have decent directv integration with vista.

We have 5 tv providers in the area, and you can use tivo hd dvrs with all of them, with cable cards and the like. You can't beat the functionality this allows for.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dbsdave said:


> Tivo might be the only chance to ever have decent directv integration with vista.
> 
> We have 5 tv providers in the area, and you can use tivo hd dvrs with all of them, with cable cards and the like. You can't beat the functionality this allows for.


I dread the day DirecTV goes down the Tivo road ever again....with the *numerous* problems that accompanied my HR10-250 for a *very *long time...the HR20 and HR21 series DVRs have been an oh-so-much-more refreshing upgrade and improvement.

A friend of mine who is in the process of leaving Comcast as of August 1st just got their latest Tivo-based HD DVR 6 weeks ago as an incentive to stay with them, and hates, yes *hates* it. After spending an afternoon having him walk me through it, I can see why. :eek2:


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## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I dread the day DirecTV goes down the Tivo road ever again....with the *numerous* problems that accompanied my HR10-250 for a *very *long time...the HR20 and HR21 series DVRs have been an oh-so-much-more refreshing upgrade and improvement.
> 
> A friend of mine who is in the process of leaving Comcast as of August 1st just got their latest Tivo-based HD DVR 6 weeks ago as an incentive to stay with them, and hates, yes *hates* it. After spending an afternoon having him walk me through it, I can see why. :eek2:


Opinions are like you know......I don't think the hr20 is as bad some people, but I very much doubt if you gave 100 random people equal time with both, most wouldn't choose the tivo hd dvr.

It's really not fair to compare the latest directv dvrs to the h10-250s which were designed ages ago, you really need to compare it with the more recent tivo hd dvrs.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

dbsdave said:


> Tivo might be the only chance to ever have decent directv integration with vista.
> 
> We have 5 tv providers in the area, and you can use tivo hd dvrs with all of them, with cable cards and the like. You can't beat the functionality this allows for.


Because when I think speed to market and stability, Vista is so obvious a choice!

Warning: For those of you having a slow day, that was sarcasm.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> Of course. And vim is even superiorer.


I could not agree more. My first professional programming assignment while still in college resulted in a 3000+ line shell script for a company that didn't like to use compilers.


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## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

gregjones said:


> Because when I think speed to market and stability, Vista is so obvious a choice!
> 
> Warning: For those of you having a slow day, that was sarcasm.


I know, but to be realistic, it's not going to happen with linux, mac, or probably xp. I just hope it doesn't take until windows 10.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

I think the central problem in the TiVo vs HR2x debate is simple. A lot of people were familiar with the TiVo interface and had used it for years prior to the HR2x being on the market. This hopelessly slants user opinions for a considerable portion of the consumers, who believe any change is bad.

How many people do you know that still cling to WordPerfect in spite of a number of better solutions? Why? Because they learned it first and refuse to see the benefit in anything else.


It is completely ok to prefer the TiVo interface and features, but don't expect everyone else to agree. Some see the channels available through the HR2x and never look back. It is also illogical to expect DirecTV to drop their own platform and return to TiVo without some significant financial advantage to that plan.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

dbsdave said:


> I know, but to be realistic, it's not going to happen with linux, mac, or probably xp. I just hope it doesn't take until windows 10.


I just have no particular desire to use my desktop to watch TV. I'm very happy with dedicated hardware (HR20) that will not be impacted by other software packages. I also don't want to spend hundreds of extra dollars upgrading my PC to make it almost as good as an HR20.

Before anyone asks, I have tried MythTV and a number of other software packages. I've yet to find anything I wanted to do that I could not accomplish more cheaply with a number of HR2x boxes.


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## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

I think besides the added functionality, more and more of us are using htpc instead of traditional components. It's really about simplicity and being able to do everything from one unit.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

I personally dislike combo units. I remember when printers came with print drivers that didn't try to help you scan or fax something. They actually worked then. I have three laptops and a server in my home. Until recently I had a dedicated phone system too. I'm not opposed to technology (since it pays my bills), I just dislike the trend to combine everything.

I am also amazed that people use the camera as a selling point for a cell-phone even if the actual ability to make a call is diminished.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dbsdave said:


> It's really not fair to compare the latest directv dvrs to the h10-250s which were designed ages ago, you really need to compare it with the more recent tivo hd dvrs.


As I stated...I've done *both*...and still don't care for any Tivobox from anyone that I've seen (4 different versions/providers in 3 different states).

Its somewhat ironic that the worst of the bunch of Tivo HD units I saw was in Malvern, PA (outside of Philly), near home base for Comcast. I made a list at the time of the things I disliked about the UI, the unit itself, the connectivity, the incredible heat coming from it, and the setup/guide menus to name a few.

That said....when it comes to User Interfaces, aka UI, it almost becomes a matter of personal taste. One likes this more and the other likes that more. So while the Tivo UI is all colorful and "cheery", I did not care for it for my own list of reasons and that should/would not matter to anyone else.

My old HR10-250 was the "lockup king" of DVR's. When I think of all the time I spent on version updates that supposedly fixed lockups, not to mention the countless hours reading about potential fixes and hacks, and also support calls that might fix things....argh....that's about 500-100 hours of my life I'll never get back. :eek2: 

My two HR20-700's and one HR21-200 couldn't be more different (on the positive side).

To some degree this further underscores the whole thread topic on Tivo as a whole. People seem to love it or hate it, not as many folks between those ends.

Since DVR is something people tend to interact with far more than just an HDTV itself, it si indeed more of a personal like/dislike relationship. I guess I've just talked my self into the view that you can take it or leave it, but there is validity in both views.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

dbsdave said:


> Opinions are like you know......I don't think the hr20 is as bad some people, but I very much doubt if you gave 100 random people equal time with both, most wouldn't choose the tivo hd dvr.
> 
> It's really not fair to compare the latest directv dvrs to the h10-250s which were designed ages ago, you really need to compare it with the more recent tivo hd dvrs.


He was talking about the new Comcast Tivo box.

Who is buying the Tivo HDDVR these days? I saw *one* in our Costco store sitting there for the last two weeks, while next to it a pile of about twenty boxes of DirecTV HR21s kept needing refill.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> Of course. And vim is even superiorer.


bah ceritifed ancients use edlin


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

Sirshagg said:


> Who cares? Well apparently someone does. Just becasue you don't use it doesn't mean nodoby uses it.
> 
> Agree 100%
> 
> That _may_ be the intent but it's not the way I read it.


BINGO!!!! What is a show stopper and a I can;t live without it hatred of the device for one viewer is a who the hell cares for another. At the end of the day the slo-mo and the dlb are the biggest repeating finger pointing statements made - when in truth not everyone really cares.

comments ate made that the HR2X is junk because it does not have this feature, reposnes from sone is who cares. One person cares, another doesn't so it comes out even in the end.

Bottom line is content, a drunk monkey with a betacam can record, but if all you have to record is the Knitting you day away shows then it is pointless.


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## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

gregjones said:


> I think the central problem in the TiVo vs HR2x debate is simple. A lot of people were familiar with the TiVo interface and had used it for years prior to the HR2x being on the market. This hopelessly slants user opinions for a considerable portion of the consumers, who believe any change is bad.
> 
> How many people do you know that still cling to WordPerfect in spite of a number of better solutions? Why? Because they learned it first and refuse to see the benefit in anything else.
> 
> It is completely ok to prefer the TiVo interface and features, but don't expect everyone else to agree. Some see the channels available through the HR2x and never look back. It is also illogical to expect DirecTV to drop their own platform and return to TiVo without some significant financial advantage to that plan.


Personally I prefer the TiVo interface. But that really isn't a big deal. My issue is that the HR20/21's have been extremely unreliable for me. Especially since the 22d and now 235 software. I have had numerous missed recordings and frequent lockups. These include 771 error messages, cases where the receiver will not respond to the remote, blank recordings. My wife had season passes on 4 of the HR20/21's for CSI:NY and Numb3rs. 3 of the receivers didn't record the season finale of Numb3rs. 2 didn't record the finale of CSI:NY.

I keep 2 HR10-250's connected and they don't miss a beat. Rock solid stable and never miss recordings. On the HR20/21's I average about 5 reboots per week per receiver and I have 6 HR20/21's. The HR10's have not been rebooted in years. (except for a power outage or two at my home)

Again, while I prefer the TiVo software, this isn't that important as I spend very little time in the menu. Where I have been spending a lot of time lately is at the friggin boot up screens as I have to boot them so often. With the 771 errors, I have to pull the plug. Restarting the receiver from the menu does no good. I really have my fingers crossed that the 254/255 software will help me.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

dinotheo said:


> Personally I prefer the TiVo interface. But that really isn't a big deal. My issue is that the HR20/21's have been extremely unreliable for me. Especially since the 231 and now 235 software. I have had numerous missed recordings and frequent lockups. These include 771 error messages, cases where the receiver will not respond to the remote, blank recordings. My wife had season passes on 4 of the HR20/21's for CSI:NY and Numb3rs. 3 of the receivers didn't record the season finale of Numb3rs. 2 didn't record the finale of CSI:NY.
> 
> I keep 2 HR10-250's connected and they don't miss a beat. Rock solid stable and never miss recordings. On the HR20/21's I average about 5 reboots per week per receiver and I have 6 HR20/21's. The HR10's have not been rebooted in years. (except for a power outage or two at my home)
> 
> Again, while I prefer the TiVo software, this isn't that important as I spend very little time in the menu. Where I have been spending a lot of time lately is at the friggin boot up screens as I have to boot them so often. With the 771 errors, I have to pull the plug. Restarting the receiver from the menu does no good. I really have my fingers crossed that the 254/255 software will help me.


Point is - the Tivo based units have problems also. The unit in the kids room has issues with missed recordings and restart, the same with HR10 is spontaneously rebooting - this is after 2 full resets that where done recently to it.


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## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

wingrider01 said:


> Point is - the Tivo based units have problems also. The unit in the kids room has issues with missed recordings and restart, the same with HR10 is spontaneously rebooting - this is after 2 full resets that where done recently to it.


At one point I had 3 HR10-250's, 4 1st GEN DirecTiVos and 5 2nd Gen DirectTiVos (and some other non DVR receivers). I've had them for years and years. The only time they missed recordings was a couple of years ago (about the time the HR20's were first introduced) when DirecTV had some issue with their guide data. That was shortlived. Prior to and since that incident, they've never missed recordings and I record lots of things.

The only time I've had spontaneous reboots on a TiVo based unit was when the hard drive was about to die. Never had them otherwise.

If a nasty thunderstorm makes the satellite unreachable for a short period of time. That isn't a problem for the TiVo based units when the sky clears. While my HR20/21's will have 771 errors that will not clear unless I pull power. 
While I loved the older TiVo based units, I am not holding onto the past. I know that they are done. I could care less about the new features that the HR20/21's have if they are unstable. I LOVED DLB but I'd be willing to give it up for stability. I so look forward to MRV. But, I'd wait on that too if the darn things were reliable. And trust me with the number of receivers that I have I really, really want MRV.

From a business perspective I completely agree with DirecTV's decision to bring their DVR development in house. I just think that they bit off more than they could chew. I think that they should have had been developing (and testing) these units for a little while longer. My guess is that they started late when they realized an opportunity to dump TiVo on the switch to Mpeg4.


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## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Here is another example. 
I just sat down to watch some shows. An HR20-100 is showing the 771 error with a garbled image from the show Psych. I go to the list to watch it and sure enough, it only recorded about 10 minutes of it. Luckily my trusty old HR10-250 got the show. (in SD though  ) As did the HR20-700 in my bedrooom and the HR21 in another room. 
It is not just this one receiver that is failing. Tomorrow I might find that the HR21 missed something where this HR20-100 recorded it.

For the most part my DirecTV branded receivers were ok (with a hiccup here and there). But software version 235 (and the one right before it) has been hell.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dinotheo said:


> Here is another example.
> I just sat down to watch some shows. An HR20-100 is showing the 771 error with a garbled image from the show Psych. I go to the list to watch it and sure enough, it only recorded about 10 minutes of it. Luckily my trusty old HR10-250 got the show. (in SD though  ) As did the HR20-700 in my bedrooom and the HR21 in another room.
> It is not just this one receiver that is failing. Tomorrow I might find that the HR21 missed something where this HR20-100 recorded it.
> 
> For the most part my DirecTV branded receivers were ok (with a hiccup here and there). But software version 235 (and the one right before it) has been hell.


It sounds like you were recording USA in HD on the HR20-100, so consider that the USA-SD and USA-HD channels may be on different transponders. Also, USA-HD is MPEG4, while USA-SD is MPEG2. Different frequencies are involved, and weather will affect them differently. If you had a 771 error, was there rain or inclement weather? If so, my guess is you have a loose connection somewhere between the dish and the lines entering your home, and water is interfering with the MPEG4 frequencies. If no bad weather, I think you have a different probllem - either a bad LNB or multiswitch.


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## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> It sounds like you were recording USA in HD on the HR20-100, so consider that the USA-SD and USA-HD channels may be on different transponders. Also, USA-HD is MPEG4, while USA-SD is MPEG2. Different frequencies are involved, and weather will affect them differently. If you had a 771 error, was there rain or inclement weather? If so, my guess is you have a loose connection somewhere between the dish and the lines entering your home, and water is interfering with the MPEG4 frequencies. If no bad weather, I think you have a different probllem - either a bad LNB or multiswitch.


Not LNB or multiswitch as 2 other HR20's in my home recorded that show on the same channel (USAHD). I've got a bunch of extra BBC's that I swap around. So I can't imagine that all of my BBC's are bad.

During very inclement weather I will have some of my HR20/21's that will not recover from a 771. Necessitating a reboot. I imagine this is software since it never happened until that software version that came out in May.

I also can't imagine that all of my cables are bad because various problems afflict all of my receivers. Seems like I have to boot a receiver almost once a day. For them to hang like that tells me that there is a software problem.

To reiterate, my problems began when the version prior to 235 (22d in May) was pushed out. I have enough receivers that I know that my problem is not isolated to 1 bad receiver. I never had a 771 error before that software push. Now they happen all the time. When I say happen all the time, I mean the receivers do not recover from them.

Again, I loved my TiVos but I am not married to them. I can live with a new DVR. It seems as though the new HR20/21's (and maybe some of the problems are because of the move to Ka and MPEG4) have so many quirks. All I want from DTV is a DVR that was as reliable as my old HR10-250. The heck with features and whose UI is better. I need it to record reliably.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dinotheo,

Are the problems associated with your WB68 or your WB616 or is it both?


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## dinotheo (Sep 22, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> dinotheo,
> 
> Are the problems associated with your WB68 or your WB616 or is it both?


Doug,
I had swapped the switches and also had previously bypassed them by running the cables directly to the receivers. Months ago I had lots of problems. DTV tried new lnb's, new multiswitches (6x8....the 6x16 I bought) and couldn't find my problems. I finally got those issues ironed out by calling an independent company to come out and "tweak" my dish. (on my dime.....thanks DTV) DirecTV wouldn't tweak my dish since my signal strengths for 103 were in the mid 70's. They deemed that good enough. After this other company got me into the mid-high 80's for 103 and 99 (They also found a bad connector on one of the cables on the lnb) everything was great. All was good with all of my receivers until May when I got a software update (22d). Immediately following this update everything went to hell. All of my receivers started to get 771 errors, lockups, etc...When I say immediately, I mean they were all updated overnight and that very next morning 2 of my receivers were hung. (Nothing on the screen, had to hard boot) And later that same day, the 771 errors began. Before this I had never had even 1 771 error.


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## Paul E Fox II (Jul 6, 2008)

As to the debate between DVRs...

We've had a DirecTiVo (series 2 I believe) unit since coming back to DirecTV some three years ago. It's been extremely reliable but has missed a recording here and there for no apparent reason. It also has a VERY annoying habit of spontaneously rebooting...like there's a power surge or something and as I'm sure you're all aware, it is hideously slow to boot back into the software.

However, it has never (to my knowledge) just become unresponsive and/or completely locked up.

Now, the HR21-200 I have in here seems to be much faster and more responsive but until the new software (0x255), I was encountering lock-up/freezes on a regular basis. It hasn't done so for the last two days at all and while I miss the familiar Tivo interface and the DLB a bit, it's not that big a deal. 

Also...one of the features I actually LOVE is the Caller-ID feature. I know that seems to be silly to some but I really like it. 

If DirecTV ever gets the bugs worked out of their DVRs, I think it will be just fine. Patches happen...I'm typing on a Windows machine so I'm very familiar with constant software updates...I just hope it gets stable and stays that way.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Nothing's perfect - not even TiVo. (And I'm talking about the company as well as the software.)

Source: BetaNews article: TiVo begins its 'summer update' rollout



> Users in the TiVo Community Forum welcome the upgraded functionality, but still complain about un-fixed (and frequently nondescript) bugs that cause freezing, which can only be cured by a reboot. Users of series 2 boxes report feeling left out, but an update to that is expected soon.


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## tbh999 (Dec 11, 2005)

In my humble opinion, the HD DVR is garbage. My wife watches a number of shows on FOX, last night all three of them were one hour recording of a gray screen. A day doesn't go by that my wife doesn't ***** about how good the Tivo WAS and how bad the HR20's are. I've had the HR20's for over a year, so, I think I can say that I gave them a chance, yes the are diffrent from Tivo

So, because I'm locked into a contract with DirecTV, I'm probably going to pull down my old DirecTivo's and put my two HR20's in the closet


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

As far as the OP comments and thread heading...when I think of my old HR10-250 box....rather than an Olive Branch...I'm thinking more like a fig leaf.


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## adamson (Nov 9, 2007)

Keep in mind if you deactivate your HR20/21 they will send recovery kits for them and you must send them back. I totally agree the HD DVR's are crap and will never work period. I trust my R10 100% and now enjoy knowing I will see what I recorded without issues period. When TIVO support ends for Directv so does my subscription to Directv.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> harsh said:
> 
> 
> > TiVo = DVR that does everything a DVR must do -- consistently.
> ...


Nice... tell everyone to get back on topic, but not without getting YOUR dig in. 

But to respond in the appropriate thread... *MY* TiVos did do everything consistently (well, except for a HD crash, but after several years, that's expected regardless of the platform). Sorry yours didn't. That's not to say that DirecTV _can't_ get the HR2x there, but in my short experience with them, they haven't quite gotten there yet.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DarinC said:


> Nice... tell everyone to get back on topic, but not without getting YOUR dig in.


Dig? Try seeing it as response to the response of my original post. 

Every post with an alternative view is not a "dig". Consistency is a legitimate issue. There are 2 sides to most coins, so lets just move on.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Every post with an alternative view is not a "dig".


It had nothing to do with the view, but everything to do with the hypocrisy of adding to the off-topic content while telling others to get back on topic.



> Consistency is a legitimate issue.


Agreed. And we have different experiences there.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DarinC said:


> It had nothing to do with the view, but everything to do with the hypocrisy of adding to the off-topic content while telling others to get back on topic. Agreed. And we have different experiences there.


We agree to disagree.


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