# AMC-16 118.7 dish size and frequency information



## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

We're all getting excited about the AMC-16 satellite being used by Echostar at 118.7 degrees. I found these data points in one of the many FCC documents pertaining to the 118.7 relocation and its operation.

This document specifically describes the capability of AMC-16 to switch from linear to circular polarity:

_In the downlink direction, each channel is capable of operating either in linear polarization or circular polarization with the polarization being selected via ground command. When located at 118.75°W.L., the satellite will transmit using LHCP and RHCP only._

The antenna size is more interesting. It will require a 66cm [26 inch] antenna:

_The primary subscriber Ku-band receive earth stations to be used with the AMC-16 satellite will be 66 cm equivalent or larger antennas. Such terminals are expected to be deployed in large numbers across the service area. In certain geographical areas larger antennas will be used._

More antenna size information (for Dish 500+, 1000+, and SuperDiSH repoint kit):

_Table 8-1 provides representative link budgets to 66 cm [26 inches] equivalent receive antennas. The link budgets assume six adjacent interfering satellites nominally located at 113.0° W.L., 114.9° W.L., 116.8° W.L., 121° W.L., 123° W.L. and 125° W.L., with each adjacent satellite assumed to be operating with the following transmission levels: Uplink Input Power Density: -50 dBW/Hz. Downlink EIRP Density: -21.5 dBW/Hz. In those geographic areas with lower downlink EIRP and/or where higher availability is desired, larger earth station antennas will be used._

_The maximum downlink EIRP of 52.3 dBW that occurs over CONUS..._

Frequencies:

_The AMC-16 satellite will operate at the 118.75° W.L. orbital location. Although the satellite is a
hybrid Ku-/Ka-band satellite, this Technical Annex describes only the Ku-band (14.0-14.5 GHz
and 11.7-12.2 GHz) capabilities, which are the subject of this application._

Earth station information:

_The feeder link earth stations will be located at EchoStar's existing facilities in Cheyenne, WY and/or Gilbert, AZ. EchoStar will separately file the necessary earth station applications with the FCC for the feeder link earth stations to be used with the AMC-16 satellite.
_


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Thanks..

Good post.. good info...


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## mplsjeffm (May 28, 2005)

what will be on this new sat?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Internationals and HD locals, as reported in the Uplink Activity threads.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

Well this should finally put to an end the "It's lenear. No it's cirdular. No it's linear. No it's cirdular" circular arguments that have been plaguing the boards!

Thanks aegrotatio 

See ya
Tony


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Those damn freetvers can understand only what satellite they need to pickup, but when it come to technical details, they are deaf.


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## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

That is interesting, especially because that Invacom LNB now will not work and people will need a Circular LNB to setup a standalone dish (or to make their own mods). Would be nice if there was a LNB out there that could do both 119k and 119...


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

So what are they going to do with the 121 and 105 satellites? They seem to be empting out of locals and now just have some internationals on the 121. It would be a waste of satellite space for the 121 since Dish does own that one. The 105 is just leased. Does anyone know about this?


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> So what are they going to do with the 121 and 105 satellites? They seem to be empting out of locals and now just have some internationals on the 121. It would be a waste of satellite space for the 121 since Dish does own that one. The 105 is just leased. Does anyone know about this?


Good question. The 121 bird is very empty now, too. Recall that AMC-16 is supposed to move back to 85 by December of this year if Anik F3 is ready on time. Anik F3 will serve the 118.7-degree location if/when it ever launches. How about starting a rumor that 121 will be moved to the 118.7-degree slot in high-power mode on reduced transponders because Anik F3 won't be ready in time.

Anik F3 is very similar in configuration to Echostar 9/IA13 at 121-degrees, a hybrid Ku/Ka-band and C-band bird.


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

alebowgm said:


> That is interesting, especially because that Invacom LNB now will not work and people will need a Circular LNB to setup a standalone dish (or to make their own mods). Would be nice if there was a LNB out there that could do both 119k and 119...


Some of those folks who think they are scanning 118.7 seem to be picking up 119 transponders in linear mode, not the actual 118.7 transponders.

The DiSH 500+ and 1000+ will either carry a wideband circular LNBF 11.7-12.75 GHz or a dual-band circular LNBF with two L.O.'s that go 11.7-12.2 GHz and 12.2-12.75 GHz (like universal LNBFs do). It all depends on whatever is cheaper to implement. Off the top of my head I don't think there is enough cable bandwidth to carry a wide-band 11.7-12.75 GHz *and* stacked polarities. I'm voting for switchable L.O.'s with stacked polarities.

In any case there will be ONE LNBF that will be peaked on 118.7-degrees since it is a weaker signal. This same LNBF will also receive 119 which won't need peaking. There will of course be another LNBF that will be looking at 110-degrees for DiSH 500+ and a third LNBF for 129-degrees for DiSH 1000+.

As an aside, the DiSH 1000.2 will be a larger/wider dish for 110-119-129 only and will not be using 118.7 at all. Think of it as the dish that DiSH 1000 was supposed to be but I digress.


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## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

> So what are they going to do with the 121 and 105 satellites? They seem to be empting out of locals and now just have some internationals on the 121. It would be a waste of satellite space for the 121 since Dish does own that one. The 105 is just leased. Does anyone know about this?


The best bet is that since they are taking off locals on 105/121 and shifting int'l from 121 to the wings and 119k, that 105/121 will be used for HD locals, to finish off the final 10% or so of DMAs in CONUS (since they are such small DMAs, I don't think Dish cares if they are Superdish markets), RSN-HD and maybe some others along those lines. Always a possibility they could sublease the space as well.

I am just waiting to see someone who successfully has a 30inch dish (or maybe even a D1000) that is not only pointed at the 110, 119 and 129, but also at 121 and 119k at the same time. I have seen pictures of 121 before (now its time to go look for them again) but maybe someone will be able to pull off both...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

aegrotatio 
In that Scott's posts, D500+ or D1000+ have separate cable from 118.75W LNBF. Not clear what D1000+ will require for combine 5 satellites, but for D500+ a switch DPP44 will be enough. Perhaps as temporary solution a combination of DPP44 and DP21 will be proposed?


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## quo17 (Feb 25, 2005)

aegrotatio said:


> Some of those folks who think they are scanning 118.7 seem to be picking up 119 transponders in linear mode, not the actual 118.7 transponders.


With my 30" dish with linear LNB, I 'm getting a channel "TV 9903" off transponders 11.840V and 11.839H. It shows "Congratulations! You have a DISH PLus." with music. 
Is it from 119 or from 118.7?

[Also, I tried to connect my 301 receiver to this cable, and it does not show anything, only coolsat does]


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## Fifty Caliber (Jan 4, 2006)

Maybe we need a Dish Pro Super-Plus 64 switch.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

quo17 said:


> With my 30" dish with linear LNB, I 'm getting a channel "TV 9903" off transponders 11.840V and 11.839H. It shows "Congratulations! You have a DISH PLus." with music.
> Is it from 119 or from 118.7?


it IS from 118.7 (aka 118.75 .. aka 119k) .. copy/paste from Tony's chart:

"You have a DISH 500/1000 Plus DPLUS 9903 7 119k"


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

aegrotatio said:


> How about starting a rumor that 121 will be moved to the 118.7-degree slot in high-power mode on reduced transponders because Anik F3 won't be ready in time.


How about asking the people at Intelsat what they are going to do with the content on their portion of E9/IA13?
It isn't E*'s sat to move as they please. That rumor won't fly.


aegrotatio said:


> Some of those folks who think they are scanning 118.7 seem to be picking up 119 transponders in linear mode, not the actual 118.7 transponders.


Please identify by name the satellite at 119° that would be transmitting in linear mode on the frequencies seen from "118.75°".

Unless they are really off and looking at 121° or 116.8° they are seeing AMC-16.


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## BabyKitten (Jun 4, 2006)

*Does anyone have any frequencies for AMC-16 for chinese channels? Please reply if you have any information. Please.

BabyKitten*


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

Nothing is available yet for consumers

what kind of Dish & Receiver do you have?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BabyKitten said:


> *Does anyone have any frequencies for AMC-16 for chinese channels? Please reply if you have any information. Please.*


Once E* makes those channels public you won't need a frequency but a legit E* receiver, a subscription and the channel number. Asking for 'frequencies' leads me to believe that you are not planning on going the paying route to get the channels.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

> Asking for 'frequencies' leads me to believe that you are not planning on going the paying route to get the channels


ya think???


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

TonyM said:


> Nothing is available yet for consumers
> 
> what kind of Dish & Receiver do you have?


Trying to reel another fish in, i see...


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## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

I just find it odd that some with Linear LNBs are able to pull in the Circular stations...


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

quo17 said:


> With my 30" dish with linear LNB, I 'm getting a channel "TV 9903" off transponders 11.840V and 11.839H. It shows "Congratulations! You have a DISH PLus." with music.
> Is it from 119 or from 118.7?
> 
> [Also, I tried to connect my 301 receiver to this cable, and it does not show anything, only coolsat does]


Congrats, you totally have 118.7! Tell us all about it--TPs you find and signal strength!


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

alebowgm said:


> I just find it odd that some with Linear LNBs are able to pull in the Circular stations...


I only have a 76cm dish active. I have another 100cm dish in the garage but I've been contemplating how to mount it properly. I haven't really been interested in tuning offf-spec signals with my 76cm dish but no doubt some of the posters are getting weak 118.7 tp's with linear LNBFs.

James--you're right, they can only be possibly tuning 118.7 at those frequencies.

As a rule I don't overclock my PC's and I don't tune circular freqs with linear LNBFs. I leave that to the others.

I'm so excited to see that DiSH has saved money by using high-power FSS instead of the horribly expensive Ka-band that DirecTV is using, with only a slightly larger dish than DiSH 1000. I can't wait to hear the official announcement of 500+ and 1000+ in a few days (weeks?).


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

aegrotatio said:


> This document specifically describes the capability of AMC-16 to switch from linear to circular polarity:
> 
> _In the downlink direction, each channel is capable of operating either in linear polarization or circular polarization with the polarization being selected via ground command. When located at 118.75°W.L., the satellite will transmit using LHCP and RHCP only._


Hmmm, I'm willing to wager that the new D500+ and D1000+ dishes will have a circular LNB setup once they go live. It's more likely that they are testing it in V/H right now and plan to switch it soon to go to circular. Once that happens, we will all be beholden to E* for a dish to get that sat. Also, keep in mind that Ku-DBS has only 768Mhz available in the 12.2-12.7Ghz band through it's use of circular polarization and that Ku-FSS has 864Mhz using H/V. Was there a link to the frequencies they will use with circular so that we can compare? And, using circular means that the only skew needed for the dish will be for picking up the sats, unlike the SD's for the V/H, so installation should be easier.

As for them moving the 121, unless it has the ability to do circular, I doubt it. The 121 was supposed to allow them to take the internationals off the wings, and that didn't happen.......Wonder what they will use it for now. At least the 121SD is reusable for the plus setup, and it may even get a better signal that way as well.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

aegrotatio said:


> As a rule I don't overclock my PC's and I don't tune circular freqs with linear LNBFs. I leave that to the others..


OT reply: I have a G4/400 Mac overclockedto 450, a P41.8Ghz OC'd to 2.4(with some better cooling), a Celeron Mobile 2.2 OC'd to 3.0 and a Celeron Mobile 2.4 OC'd to 3.2(stock P4 cooling) in desktop boards. As much as I dislike the P4 design, they are good for re-encoding. They just suck at everything else. And the mobile celerons have 256k L2 instead of the 128k of the normal P4 celerons(which I recommend avoiding). I have overclocked for years and never killed a processor. Google is your friend.....Later


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

larrystotler said:


> As for them moving the 121, unless it has the ability to do circular, I doubt it. The 121 was supposed to allow them to take the internationals off the wings, and that didn't happen.......Wonder what they will use it for now. At least the 121SD is reusable for the plus setup, and it may even get a better signal that way as well.


Perhaps Dish will lease E-9 at 121 W to Wildblue for internet access until Wildblue launches there own satellite.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"It's more likely that they are testing it in V/H right now and plan to switch it soon to go to circular."

Definitly you missed a LOT last week !
Try read the thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=589831,
analyze a few pictures http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=589831&postcount=72
Then tell us again what's MORE likely they DOING.

EDIT. First URL fixed.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

P Smith said:


> Try read the thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?t=589831,


Link doesn't work



P Smith said:


> analyze a few pictures http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=589831&postcount=72


And I have no clue what I am looking at there. I don't have that kinda meter. My just tells me what strength I am getting. I may have to pull out the old 40x30" P* dish and see what I can get. But, AFAIK, they aren't allowed to transmit both H/V and circular at the same time, and wouldn't that also cause interference on both types of signal as well.

Regardless, my comment was about it ending up circular and not being usable with an H/V standard LNB. While you might get SOME signal from an H/V LNB, it probably wouldn't be useful, and switching to circular will possibly loose them some bandwidth. Whether that is true of whether that will matter is another story.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Dish DO NOT "testing in V/H", they're use CIRCULAR polarization - take a look into that thread, if those pictures don't tell you truth.


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## Midnight-TV (Apr 14, 2006)

A scan of AMC16 from the west coast on Sunday yielded the following results:

The following transponders were active. Their frequency in MHz:
11718 V
11760 V
11820 H
11980 H
12040 H
12158 H

These are all FSS Ku-band signals - and in North America, they're almost always linear. [10.7-12.2GHz is FSS, 12.2-12.7GHz is BSS and in North America BSS is almost always circular].

As of Sunday afternoon (6/4), the following channels were active:

676 JIC 
686 BEJTV 
696 CCMOV 
697 CCENT 
699 CCOPR 
701 FUJTV 
706 CYRTV 
708 HUNAN 
680 PHNIX 
681 CCTV4 
685 ETCHI 
688 JET 
725 DWTV 
726 PRSBN 
811 SAWLD 
818 ATN 
657 ONGME 
658 BTN 
661 WOWTV 
668 JSTV 
704 KBS 
705 ARANG 
803 UDAYA 
679 PHNIN 
689 TTV 
690 CTV 
691 CTS 
692 VLAND 
693 PTS 
682 ETDRA 
683 ETGLB 
684 ETNEW 
687 YOYO 
698 ATV 
713 VIVA 
714 NBN4 
715 RPN9 
731 TV5 
735 TRACE 
785 CARIB 
801 KAIRA 
802 TEJA 
804 NTV 
806 CHNLI

These signals were picked up using a 90cm dish with an Invacom QPH-031 using its linear outputs into a SW64. [Note: I'm a Great Wall subscriber - I confirmed programming on all the Chinese channels. The other channels *do* show up in the program guide...]

Note also that, it should be fairly easy to combine the 119k linear signal with the 119 circular signal from Echo 7 since the frequencies [and the polarizations] don't overlap.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

One more cowboy came to satellites . :nono:

Have you read some threads here ?! http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=58318
118.75W is CIRCULAR !!!
There're 23 (-1) transponders active.


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

I must apologize for not posting the link on svartifoss to let you guys see these for themselves but I've been stabbing for an hour and cannot find it. If you are interested I can upload the PDFs but the one I quoted doesn't mention the darn file number. Look for applications for companies named "ECHOSTAR" and "SES" in the range of 2005-03-01 through 2005-08-31. I think it was granted in April to ECHOSTAR and there is a corresponding grant to SES also around that time.

If anyone wants to take up the search go right ahead:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/myibfs/

...and enter "ECHOSTAR" for company name in the upper-left corner, then stab around for SAT-STA and SAT-MOD applications in 2005, you'll eventually find it.

To the guy seeing 118.7 in linear mode, you are for sure seeing the right bird, your big 90cm dish and the excellent Invacom LNBF is allowing you to see the circular transponders on your linear setup. Are you actually seeing video on the subscription channels on a DiSH receiver? I'm a Great Wall plus Chinese SuperPack subscriber, too, for the wife and kids. I'm excited about this news (though it probably only means the shroud gets smaller on my SuperDiSH, oh well).


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## quo17 (Feb 25, 2005)

aegrotatio said:


> Congrats, you totally have 118.7! Tell us all about it--TPs you find and signal strength!


This is a result of this morning scan, as seen by linear KU LNB:
11.838 (both Horizontal and Vertical), quality reading on Coolsat 5000 is 60%:
TV 9903 - free
TV 799 - scrambled as the rest of them
TV 800
TV 812

11.718(H,V), 67%:
TV 682
TV 683
TV 684
TV 687
TV 698
TV 713
TV 714
TV 715

11.759(H,V), 60%:
TV 731
TV 735
TV 785
TV 801
TV 802
TV 804
TV 808
RADIO 732
RADIO 810

11.913H, 67%:
TV 7770
TV 7771
TV 7772

11.927V, 68%:
TV 704
TV 768
TV 788
TV 789
TV 795
TV 799
TV 800
TV 814
TV 815
TV 818
TV 9850
RADIO 810

11.942H, 67%:
TV 668
TV 685
TV 718
TV 719
TV 720
TV 739
TV 740
TV 741
TV 794
TV 813
RADIO 721
RADIO 722

11.978 (H,V), 63%:
TV 680
TV 681
TV 685
TV 688
TV 725
TV 728
TV 811
TV 818

12.038V, 63%:
TV 657
TV 658
TV 661
TV 668
TV 704
TV 705
TV 803

12.159H, 61%:
TV 679
TV 689
TV 690
TV 691
TV 692
TV 693

12.237V, 90%
TV 105
TV 120
TV 124
TV 129
TV 158
TV 180
TV 184
TV 204
TV 270
TV 273
TV 300
TV 455
TV 827
TV 833
TV 875
TV 880
TV 887

12.281V, 90%:
TV 9000
TV 9001
TV 9002
TV 9003
TV 9004
TV 9005
TV 9006
TV 9085
TV 9088
TV 9829
TV 9830
TV 9831
TV 9832


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

quo17 said:


> This is a result of this morning scan, as seen by linear KU LNB:
> 11.838 (both Horizontal and Vertical), quality reading on Coolsat 5000 is 60%:


Most excellent information! Thanks!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

but too messy for treat it as a report - because of inapproprite LNBF; 
btw 12.237GHz and up taken from E*7 at 119W


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

P Smith said:


> but too messy for treat it as a report - because of inapproprite LNBF;
> btw 12.237GHz and up taken from E*7 at 119W


Yup, the signal quality kinda gives that away.


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## mmc-dsm (Dec 27, 2005)

So ok, we know that 118.75 has circular polarity tps operating in the lower ku band.

My question is what lnb to use to pick up right? We know that it's possible to pick it up with a linear lnb but with a bad quality.

Regular circular lnbs has a l.o. of 11250, but we need l.o. of 10750.

Is there a cricular lnb that exists with a l.o. of 10750?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Sure, I made one http://dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=593729&postcount=106 by myself.


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## mmc-dsm (Dec 27, 2005)

I tried what you did with the plastic piece. I did it on a cylinder shaped starchoice lnb. I can pick the odd tps but not the even tps. When I turn the plastic around the throat, at some time I get the even tps, but at that time I lose the odd tps. I cannot get both.

Is it my lnb?


UPDATE : I changed the lnb for an old L-shaped expressvu linear lnb. Put the plastic in the lnb and it works! I can now pick odd and even tps on amc-16 at a quality ranging from 60% to 68%. The dish is a 26''x24'' old starchoice dish.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Glad to hear you got it too.


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## KingLoop (Mar 3, 2005)

You guys are great. Way more technically inclined than I am.

Detroit is on deck for HD locals. , Almost time for a 622.


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

So, somewhat smaller than a SuperDiSH after all (SuperDiSH is 36", these are 31"). Seems that 500+ and 1000+ are both exactly the same reflector size.

For DiSH 500+:
1 5/8" mounting mast
23.8”h x 30.9"w dish face 

for DiSH 1000+:
1 5/8" mounting mast
23.8”h x 30.9"w dish face


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The reflector is identical ... the only difference is that on the D1000+ there is a third LNB for 129° attached to the side of the FSS/DBS LNB. Think of the D500+ as a SuperDish118 with a smaller reflector and better designed LNBs (less places for wasps to nest). A DP34 or DPP44 will be needed to combine the signals for feeds to receivers (the FSS/DBS LNB has separate outputs for each satellite and does *not* contain a DPP switch like the DPP Twin).

Note the reflector artwork just says "plus". On a D500+ the small LNB to the right in the picture would not be present.


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## Tealhawke (Jun 19, 2006)

Sorry for coming at this from a FTA/PC-DVB point of view, but I must ask if someone who understands the concepts behind the polarizations, etc. of the AMC 16 signals to break this down in simple terms for those of us testers (worry not, I have full subscriptions, this is just a hobby) who can get this sat... I have a 90cm dish with invacom quad and an invacom universal that I've swapped to my dish as I've read that the universal can handle these signals, but to test it I and others need the basics (and while lots of knowledgeable people are discussing this here and on other boards, it's seemingly impossible to find the basics!). 

Can anyone simply tell me:

1. What LOFs to use for a universal lnb, and what LOFs might work using a linear lnb?

2. The frequencies, signal rates, etc. for a transponder file (i.e., a .ini)?

I could give you a full report if I had this info


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Lyngsat is an informative source for such things, as mentioned up thread.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Tealhawke said:


> <...> Can anyone simply tell me:
> 
> 1. What LOFs to use for a universal lnb, and what LOFs might work using a linear lnb?
> 
> ...


Simple reading THE thread and follow URLs from it will give you basics what you're asking for.


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