# Ciel-2 Launched! - December 10th



## phrelin

This is more than a bit out of my knowledge comfort zone, but it appears from the Spaceflight Now Worldwide Launch Schedule that the Baikonur Cosmodrome launch schedule has been pushed back putting the Ciel-2 launch into December. Is that correct?

If that is correct, how long could the launch be delayed before those of us depending on a working satellite at 129 would begin to see worse problems than we have now?


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## James Long

I don't see a push back ... I was expecting a December launch.

Back in April we had the story that it was pushed into 2009 ... December isn't that far away.
(The last date I see posted at DBSTalk is December 3rd.)


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## spear61

Astra 1 slipped a couple of days but is sitting on the launch pad right now and Ciel is next up in early Dec, so one can still expect Ciel to be on station and in service around the first of the year.


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## BNUMM

Apparently it has been moved back by 8 days ( according to Lyngsat and Jet Propulsion Labs Space Calendar). Last week both were indicating a launch date of December 2, 2008. Both are now indicating a launch of December 10, 2008. Not a big change and seems to happen now and then that launches are moved by a few days at the last minute.


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## HDRoberts

spear61 said:


> Astra 1 slipped a couple of days but is sitting on the launch pad right now and Ciel is next up in early Dec, so one can still expect Ciel to be on station and in service around the first of the year.


Ciel-2 is a big spotbeam bird, so it will require a lot of testing. I don't think it will e in its testing location until Dec. 17, a week after launch. Then at least a month to test, plus a little extra for the holidays, and a week to move it to 129. I'd say it will be Feb. before we see it in operation.

Astra 1M should be taking off tomorrow afternoon, US time (3:44 pm EST).


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## jclewter79

HDRoberts said:


> Ciel-2 is a big spotbeam bird, so it will require a lot of testing. I don't think it will e in its testing location until Dec. 17, a week after launch. Then at least a month to test, plus a little extra for the holidays, and a week to move it to 129. I'd say it will be Feb. before we see it in operation.
> 
> Astra 1M should be taking off tomorrow afternoon, US time (3:44 pm EST).


That is cutting it darn close to end of life time for the current 129 bird. Lets all hope if gets there without a hitch.


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## HDRoberts

jclewter79 said:


> That is cutting it darn close to end of life time for the current 129 bird. Lets all hope if gets there without a hitch.


Heck, Dish plans on moving E5 to 148 after Ciel-2 gets there. I thought it was out of gas, too, but apparently Dish knows something we don't.


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## JohnH

HDRoberts said:


> Heck, Dish plans on moving E5 to 148 after Ciel-2 gets there. I thought it was out of gas, too, but apparently Dish knows something we don't.


Smoke?


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## levibluewa

They probably want to be sure that it falls in the ocean and not on someone's house.


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## HDRoberts

On a positive note, Astra 1-M launched successfully yesterday, so Ciel-2 should be good to go in 5 weeks or so.


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## phrelin

HDRoberts said:


> On a positive note, Astra 1-M launched successfully yesterday, so Ciel-2 should be good to go in 5 weeks or so.


Good to hear.


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## James Long

Launch Date: December 10, 19:43 Baikonur, 08:43 EST, 13:43 GMT

http://www.ilslaunch.com/ciel-2-mission-control


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## phrelin

James Long said:


> Launch Date: December 10, 19:43 Baikonur, 08:43 EST, 13:43 GMT
> 
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/ciel-2-mission-control


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## nitz369

So if I understand all of this correctly, this COULD bring Las Vegas HD Locals in 2-3 months!!!

Am I right?


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## phrelin

nitz369 said:


> So if I understand all of this correctly, this COULD bring Las Vegas HD Locals in 2-3 months!!!
> 
> Am I right?


I like that word "COULD" as it fits right in with "SOON".:sure:


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## BattleZone

Ciel-2 is make-or-break for Dish; E5 is failing, and a replacement is needed to allow any further west-coast HD local expansion, plus it will potentially allow for some national HD expansion. The latter may require more shuffling of HD locals off 61.5 to 77, as 61.5 is the east-coast mirror of 129. E5 currently has 4 bad transponders that should go live on Ciel-2, plus Ciel-2 has a bunch of spotbeams.


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## space86

Is the launch going to be on channel 101 next week?


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## HDRoberts

I would think so. If not, www.ilslaunch.com will have it on a live webcast. (Bottom of the page)


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## Bradtothebone

space86 said:


> Is the launch going to be on channel 101 next week?


Yes, this was confirmed today. Coverage starts at 8:15 a.m. EST. Launch at 8:45 (+/-).


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## PRIME1

Surprised that I didn't see any new posts or updates so here is a quick update...

1st burn has completed successfully.

http://www.ilslaunch.com/ciel-2/


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## James Long

I rewound my recording enough to see the launch before I left the house this morning. Almost looked like "special effects" instead of reality, being a night launch.

But it does appear to be going well ...


> Posted by ILS Communications, 10:20 a.m. EST on 10 December 2008
> 
> The Breeze M's second burn has been completed successfully.
> The third burn will start in about two hours. Once the third
> burn concludes, the Breeze M will shutdown and jettison the
> additional propellant tank. Moments later, the Breeze M's
> 4th burn will begin. We'll confirm completion of the 4th
> burn as soon as we have official word.


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## PRIME1

Coasting now until 5th (and final) burn....



> Posted by ILS Communications, 12:25 p.m. EST on 10 December 2008
> 
> The Breeze M has completed its 3rd and 4th burns, and the
> additional propellant fuel tank has been jettisoned. The
> vehicle is now in a five-hour coasting period.


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## Ron Barry

Glad to hear that the launch so far is looking successful.  I sure hope all goes well.. (Knocking on wood). 

I definitely am interested in its success, but work as that nasty habit of getting in the way at times.

We are wondering a bit off topic here guys... lets try and stay on topic which is the launch and not a D* vs E* thread.


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## butters

Hopefully it won't run into a tool bag or something...


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## jacmyoung

A 5-stage (or 4?) burn launch, that bird must be a monster


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## P Smith

Check that ILS and Ciel sites - biggest bus, more then 5 tons !


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## satexplorer

Ciel-2 should be successful at 129°? A new powered Ciel coming to the Eastern Arc?l


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## P Smith

satexplorer said:


> Ciel-2 should be successful at 129°? A new powered Ciel coming to the Eastern Arc?l


  

Have you read press-release and FCC filing ?


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## rocatman

The use of 5 burns is not so much related to the weight of the satellite but to optimize the performance of the Breeze Upper Stage. In addition, the failure for AMC-14 was a thermal failure of the Breeze Upper Stage that was scheduled to have 3 longer Breeze firings instead of 5. Past Proton/Breeze Upper Stage missions had used both 3 and 5 burn profiles but there had been a similar Breeze Upper Stage failure during a 3 burn profile for another mission. The 5 burn profile reduces the likelihood of a similar failure significantly but design changes have been made to try to eliminate this thermal failure. As a side note, a 5 burn profile most likely increases other failures with the Breeze Upper Stage. As a second side note, Ciel-2 is the biggest satellite produced by its manufacturer, Thales Alenia Space but a 5 ton satellite is not really out of the ordinary. The E-11 satellite is over 6 tons and most of the other recent Echostar satellites have been around 5 tons in weight.


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## peano

Looks like it made it:

_We are happy to announce the successful conclusion of
another launch mission! The Proton M Breeze M rocket has
carried to geostationary transfer orbit the Ciel II
satellite, built by ThalesAlenia Space for the Ciel
Satellite Group. Spacecraft separation occurred on schedule,
at 17:55 EST. Total launch time was 9 hours, 12 minutes._


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## space86

Ciel 2 is going to be used by a Canadian Satellite Company and Dish Network?


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## James Long

Yes, but mostly DISH Network. Half of the satellite is spots aimed at the US (for locals) and the other half can be used for either ConUS (no AK/HI) or Canadian feeds on a transponder by transponder basis.


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## Lincoln6Echo

levibluewa said:


> They probably want to be sure that it falls in the ocean and not on someone's house.


I don't think the deorbiting of a telecommunications satellite is such a big deal. They deorbited MIR without much of a problem with debris.

The question is, what's gonna happen to the ISS when they deorbit it in 10 years or so.


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## bartendress

Lincoln6Echo said:


> I don't think the deorbiting of a telecommunications satellite is such a big deal. They deorbited MIR without much of a problem with debris.
> 
> The question is, what's gonna happen to the ISS when they deorbit it in 10 years or so.


I'm reminded of AMC-14. What became of it? Did they give it the 21st century version of a Viking funeral?


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## Benhath

Not knowing a lot about how channels are distributed over the satellites, I hope that it can assume much of the programming currently on the existing 129 that still keeps dropping out up here in the Pacific Northwest, even with the 24" dish (usually at the end of a movie). :grin:



James Long said:


> Yes, but mostly DISH Network. Half of the satellite is spots aimed at the US (for locals) and the other half can be used for either ConUS (no AK/HI) or Canadian feeds on a transponder by transponder basis.


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## James Long

Ciel-2 will be the best satellite up there ... It will certainly make reception easier at 129.


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## phrelin

It's there. The next step is positioning and testing, right?


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## HDRoberts

James Long said:


> Ciel-2 will be the best satellite up there ... It will certainly make reception easier at 129.


Nahh, Echostar 11 is the best sat up there. Nearly twice the power of Ciel-2. 88 TWTAs.

As for the question an AMC-14, it was bought by the government, and is close to a geosynchronous orbit. However, it has quite a bit of inclination left. What it will be used for, who knows.

http://www.heavens-above.com/orbit.aspx?satid=32708&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=CET


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## James Long

phrelin said:


> It's there. The next step is positioning and testing, right?


It is in the sky but it isn't "there" yet ... but yes, it is time to park it somewhere safe and test it.



HDRoberts said:


> Nahh, Echostar 11 is the best sat up there. Nearly twice the power of Ciel-2. 88 TWTAs.


E11 is powerful but doesn't do spot beams.

E10 is a massive spotbeam satellite like Ciel-2 but is only capable of covering 10 transponders ... lots of spots just like it's older sister Echostar 12 (Rainbow 1) that maxes out at 13 transponders. E10 and E11 need to work together to cover the slot. Ciel-2 does it all on one satellite.

Not to say that E10 and E11 don't do extremely well at what they do do. 

BTW: I'm still holding out hope for AMC-14 to get to a usable place.


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## JohnH

EchoStar 10(spotbeam thingy) and EchoStar 11(ConUS thingy) confused there.


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## James Long

JohnH said:


> EchoStar 10(spotbeam thingy) and EchoStar 11(ConUS thingy) confused there.


True (gotta fix that) ... but both are really good at what they do.
Both functions are needed. Ciel-2 provides the best of both types of service.


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## HDRoberts

James Long said:


> True (gotta fix that) ... but both are really good at what they do.
> Both functions are needed. Ciel-2 provides the best of both types of service.


True, but it could do it all much better if it had over 20,000 watts of power like E11.

I have a feeling E14 will do an even better job. It's a SS/L 1300 like E11, so it will probably have a similar high power configuration (I don't know why Dish would build another sat with lower power). But it will probably have spots to fully replace E7.


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## rocatman

HDRoberts said:


> True, but it could do it all much better if it had over 20,000 watts of power like E11.
> 
> I have a feeling E14 will do an even better job. It's a SS/L 1300 like E11, so it will probably have a similar high power configuration (I don't know why Dish would build another sat with lower power). But it will probably have spots to fully replace E7.


You are correct, there are power limitations on the Ciel-2 satellite so that not all the spotbeams can be operated if all the CONUS TPs are operated as well. I think this may have been done for both cost reasons as well as the possibility that Dish may not have obtained use of all the TPs because of the Canadian government provisions. Realize also that the Ciel-2 spotbeams provide a backup for the E-10 spotbeams. I believe Dish will initially fully power all the CONUS TPs and then as many of the spotbeams as the power limitations allow. Previously I have speculated that Dish will request that they be allowed to move another of their satellites to 129 W. Prior to the AMC-14 launch failure, E-6 or E-8 may have ended up there with E-3 being moved to 72.7 W until Nimiq 5 was launched. I would speculate now that E-7 may end up at 129 W after E-14 is launched with E-6 moving to 61.5 W after Nimiq 5 is launched. I expect the E-14 satellite to be similar to the Ciel-2 satellite with both CONUS and spotbeams but with more power. Dish only has use of 21 TPs at 119 W which is where E-14 is going so the mix might overlap more. Dish also might want to have flexibility with it so that it can provide all 32 TPs in CONUS mode for use at another slot if needed. It would be great if this time next year we were talking about the added bandwidth that Dish has with the successful launches of both Nimiq 5 and E-14.


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## HDRoberts

rocatman said:


> Dish also might want to have flexibility with it so that it can provide all 32 TPs in CONUS mode for use at another slot if needed. It would be great if this time next year we were talking about the added bandwidth that Dish has with the successful launches of both Nimiq 5 and E-14.


I would think they would want all of their sats to be as flexible as possible. Of all their sats, only E7, E10, and E11 where they were originally meant for (not including E9 as it isn't being used for DBS anymore). E1, E3, E5, E6, and E8 have all been repurposed (with E2 and E4 being, at least effectively, dead). I don't think they should design another sat that isn't capable of 32 TPs CONUS.

Are Nimiq 5 and Echostar 14 both confirmed for next year? Anik at Nasaspaceflight has Nimiq 5 in the second half of 2009, but doesn't list E14. Lyngsat has E14 in 2009, but doesn't list Nimiq 5. Are they both Proton, or don't we know?


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## rocatman

HDRoberts said:


> I would think they would want all of their sats to be as flexible as possible. Of all their sats, only E7, E10, and E11 where they were originally meant for (not including E9 as it isn't being used for DBS anymore). E1, E3, E5, E6, and E8 have all been repurposed (with E2 and E4 being, at least effectively, dead). I don't think they should design another sat that isn't capable of 32 TPs CONUS.
> 
> Are Nimiq 5 and Echostar 14 both confirmed for next year? Anik at Nasaspaceflight has Nimiq 5 in the second half of 2009, but doesn't list E14. Lyngsat has E14 in 2009, but doesn't list Nimiq 5. Are they both Proton, or don't we know?


Nimiq 5 is definitely going on a Proton and its scheduled launch date was moved up from early 2010 to the second half of 2009. Nasaspaceflight is a very reliable site. I have read some speculation that it could be launched as early as July. I am not sure of Echostar-14 both on the launch vehicle and the schedule but Dish does have another ride on a Proton since the CMBStar satellite was suppose to go on a Proton. If not a Proton then it will go on a Zenit by SeaLaunch. I had read somewhere that the SeaLaunch schedule for 2009 will be pretty lean because there was major refurbrishment of some of the launch vessels scheduled for next year as well as vehicle shortages because there are a lot of Zenit Landlaunches scheduled. A Dish/Echostar financial report a year or so ago stated it was a DBS spotbeam satellite going to 119 W. As a side note, I believe the E-3 satellite was specifically built for 61.5 W.


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## James Long

HDRoberts said:


> (not including E9 as it isn't being used for DBS anymore)


It is a little hard to use elsewhere, being a FSS & C Band combo satellite.


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## James Long

rocatman said:


> As a side note, I believe the E-3 satellite was specifically built for 61.5 W.


You are correct ... it's ConUS beam is designed for shooting from that location.


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## HDRoberts

James Long said:


> It is a little hard to use elsewhere, being a FSS & C Band combo satellite.


Well, what I meant is that it isn't used for Direct to Home services.

And I thought I remembered E3 being moved. But the point still stands. Half of Dish's satellites they launched are used at places other than their original design. Had AMC-14 made it, E3 would have been moved.


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## rocatman

HDRoberts said:


> Well, what I meant is that it isn't used for Direct to Home services.
> 
> And I thought I remembered E3 being moved. But the point still stands. Half of Dish's satellites they launched are used at places other than their original design. Had AMC-14 made it, E3 would have been moved.


Yes, probably to 72.7 W and then E-6 would have gone to 77 W. That would have let Dish move E-8 to either 148 W or perhaps 129 W. As I stated before, the power limitiations of the Ciel-2 satellite requires Dish to move another satellite with CONUS coverage to 129 W to fully utilize the Ciel-2 spotbeam capabilities.


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## ttalex

I have created and article at Wikipedia dedicated to Ciel-2 at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciel-2. Anyone who has additional information - you are welcome to contribute!


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## P Smith

Oh ! You're from Brussels ! Nice to see such attention of Europeans to NA sats.


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## harsh

Starting to see TLEs for Ciel 2

CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A 08347.78382410 -.00000091 00000-0 10000-3 0 64
2 33453 009.2286 294.1349 3667710 000.2960 359.7731 01.61221969 42


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## Bijou Media

It will fix the 129 problems.


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## hdaddikt

levibluewa said:


> They probably want to be sure that it falls in the ocean and not on someone's house.


No real way to predict that in advance. That's why they have a destruct system on-board to destroy them before they leave a safe corridor.

In any case, your are right, you can't be too careful. Replacing these birds is an extremely expensive proposition, including the horrible delays we've already witnessed in the past.


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## simulated

1 33453U 08063A 08350.75428707 .00000082 00000-0 00000+0 0 126
2 33453 000.0465 145.2034 0010126 299.6239 128.7055 01.00670946 72

holy crap! they got that 5 ton bird into GEO fast! I'm sure there will be some tweaking, but wow, fast.


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## P Smith

it's 5 days, fast would be second day


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## simulated

P Smith said:


> it's 5 days, fast would be second day


that would require a delta 4


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## James Long

N2YO has it at -142.7 based on that TLE
http://www.n2yo.com/?s=33453

It is nice to see it projected ahead to current.


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## harsh

No messing around with this bird. They must be firewalling the burner control.


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## jacmyoung

I remember the last successful bird (E11?) was fired in even faster.


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## rocatman

jacmyoung said:


> I remember the last successful bird (E11?) was fired in even faster.


The E-11 satellite was launched by SeaLaunch at the equator so there was no inclination that needed to be removed by the satellite propulsion system. This usually makes it easier/quicker to get a satellite into Geostationary orbit. Testing should take longer for the Ciel-2 satellite because of spotbeams but it has a bit less to travel after testing at 138 W i.e., 129 W versus 110 W for E-11.


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## JohnH

The launch vehicle configuration should remove the inclination leaving the same job for the satellite as any other launch provider.


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## P Smith

JohnH said:


> The launch vehicle configuration should remove the inclination leaving the same job for the satellite as any other launch provider.


Wishful thinking, but in reality it will cost a lot to build new type of Briz-M block and Kazhakstan location.


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## JohnH

Not really. The satellite does not have the fuel to remove any appreciable inclination.


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## P Smith

They have it - just see how Ciel-2 does maneuvering now.


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## jacmyoung

JohnH said:


> Not really. The satellite does not have the fuel to remove any appreciable inclination.


I agree, relying on the fuel on board the satellite to do extra work would be the last thing to happen.


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## P Smith

It is designed and built that way as you see.


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## thesmith77

Does anyone know if any Markets will remain Conus or with the launch of Ciel-2 will they all go spotbeam?


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## rocatman

thesmith77 said:


> Does anyone know if any Markets will remain Conus or with the launch of Ciel-2 will they all go spotbeam?


I can't believe any locals from the Ciel-2 satellite will be on CONUS beams. They should all be on spotbeams whether HD or SD locals.


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## James Long

AGreed ... spotbeam locals make a lot more sense. Use the ConUS space for stuff everyone needs to see.


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## DJ Lon

Any recent news regarding this bird? Are they testing it (has it reached a test orbit) or is it sitting there humming quietly to itself (not quite there yet)? If it is being tested, is it giving readings beyond everyone's expectations?


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## levibluewa

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=33453


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## JohnH

2009 Jan 06 00:14:53 0.0308 S 138.0113 W 35785.850

CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A 09006.04521624 .00000122 00000-0 10000-3 0 411
2 33453 000.0460 150.8360 0000658 166.2637 026.9085 01.00272545 289


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## James Long

JohnH said:


> 2009 Jan 06 00:14:53 0.0308 S 138.0113 W 35785.850
> 
> CIEL-2
> 1 33453U 08063A 09006.04521624 .00000122 00000-0 10000-3 0 411
> 2 33453 000.0460 150.8360 0000658 166.2637 026.9085 01.00272545 289


Ny2o is using an older TLE ... (Mon Dec 15 13:06:10 EST 2008).

The TLE you provided places it at about 104 West?


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## JohnH

James Long said:


> Ny2o is using an older TLE ... (Mon Dec 15 13:06:10 EST 2008).
> 
> The TLE you provided places it at about 104 West?


There is a problem with the calculator you are using. The TLE calculates to about 138w


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## James Long

http://www.satellite-calculations.com/TLETracker/SatTracker.htm (IE only, no Firefox).
Got a better one handy?


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## JohnH

Code:


ciel-2
1 33453u 08063a   09006.04521624  .00000122  00000-0  10000-3 0   411
2 33453 000.0460 150.8360 0000658 166.2637 026.9085 01.00272545   289

I inserted code tags. The forum software reformats the info.


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## James Long

Still something odd there ... but 138 is where it should be for testing.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Still something odd there ... but 138 is where it should be for testing.


As I type, the tool I use is saying 138.0113W and drifting very slowly east. Doesn't seem odd to me.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> As I type, the tool I use is saying 138.0113W and drifting very slowly east. Doesn't seem odd to me.


Odd with the site I found ... gotta find a better tool.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Odd with the site I found ... gotta find a better tool.


I've been using a Windows program called Orbitron with great success.


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## James Long

From another program:
2009 Jan 06 01:42:21 0.0261 S *138.0115 W* 35786.881


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## phrelin

Is it reasonable to assume they are testing it? I hate to assume, but....


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## JohnH

phrelin said:


> Is it reasonable to assume they are testing it? I hate to assume, but....


Assumption? It was announced on the last Dealer Chat that tests were going well.


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## JohnH

Another new one:



Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09006.46025561  .00000120  00000-0  10000-3 0   425
2 33453 000.0465 155.2486 0000488 186.1244 152.4665 01.00273596   295


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## HDRoberts

After a 3 week drought, the seem to be pouring in



Code:


CEIL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09007.27219369  .00000118  00000-0  10000-3 0   434
2 33453 000.0472 155.2377 0000488 186.1521 085.5537 01.00273906   301

n2yo is currently using this TLE

Still precisely at 138.


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## JohnH

Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09007.60799569  .00000116  00000-0  10000-3 0   445
2 33453 000.0488 151.4531 0000530 200.3014 196.4094 01.00273890   304

Looks like 2 per day.


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## JohnH

Code:


ciel-2
1 33453u 08063a   09008.24063223  .00000113  00000-0  10000-3 0   455
2 33453 000.0504 158.0333 0000302 218.5250 039.9899 01.00274526   318


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## Kumacho

Will Ciel-2 be the answer to the Northwest signal problems on 129 or is this just going to be the same old problems but with a new satellite?


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## James Long

Kumacho said:


> Will Ciel-2 be the answer to the Northwest signal problems on 129 or is this just going to be the same old problems but with a new satellite?


It will be the answer. A signal designed for use from 129 with a much stronger signal.


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## JohnH

Code:


ciel-2
1 33453u 08063a   09008.50517182  .00000112  00000-0  10000-3 0   462
2 33453 000.0506 158.0298 0000302 218.5338 135.4823 01.00274627   318


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## jefbal99

Where do these TLEs have the bird at?


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## JohnH

138 west


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## Brad B

So for those of us who aren't techies, when will this bird be up and ready? Will this solve the loss of HD from 129? Will I finally be happy after three years of HD loss?? If not, I will drop Dishnetwork, I'm tired of not being able to watch channels I'm paying for.


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## Todd Nicholson

It will probably be lit up within a month, and yes, it will fix the dropouts on the current 129.


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## Spoonser

Harsh, 

What file do you load to find Ciel-2 in Orbitron? Thanks.


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## James Long

The most up to date is SpaceTrack's (2009-01-11 15:23:17 at the moment).
In the geo.txt or catalog.txt files.

Celestrak seems to have lost the bird (it was in the "new" file last I saw).


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## harsh

I usually check space-track.org first, but the newly launched satellites are located in the tle-new.txt file. Ciel-2 had moved to the geo.txt set, but it isn't in any of the current sets so you have to rely on posts here or get an account on space-track.org.

CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A 09011.64117189 .00000099 00000-0 10000-3 0 514
2 33453 000.0473 176.7453 0000570 180.5944 206.7815 01.00275464 345


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## ZBoomer

Question about CEIL-2; how exactly do you replace a currently functioning satellite, in place?

Will they move CEIL-2 to 129 right beside the existing one, then do a light-switch flip in the middle of the night? Or more likely, will they move the stuff over one stransponder at a time, shutting down a transponder on the old one while firing it up on the new?

I'm just curious how this works, replacing a currently functioning satellite with a new one, without service outage.


----------



## James Long

Most likely one transponder at a time to keep it simple. There will be some transponder number moves as well - as long as the transponder isn't being used on the old satellite they can light up the transponder on the new satellite then change the tables to point there. It shouldn't take too long (and needs to get done so E-5 can move west).

BTW: The dead E-2 from 148 isn't at 148 any more. It seems to be headed east (around 120 at the moment).


----------



## ZBoomer

I wonder how close they can physically get the two satellites to each other when they are doing the switch. Close enough so existing dishes see both, not so close they crash into each other, lol.


----------



## James Long

ZBoomer said:


> I wonder how close they can physically get the two satellites to each other when they are doing the switch. Close enough so existing dishes see both, not so close they crash into each other, lol.


A satellite slot is plus or minus a tenth of a degree from the center of the slot. At 129 the slot extends from 128.9 to 129.1. At altitude the satellites can be close enough together and still be miles apart. Separation between slots is at least 4.5 degrees. The dishes can handle not having satellites in an exact location within the slot.

There are several slots with multiple satellites. This isn't much different.


----------



## simulated

1 33453U 08063A 09023.80000000 .00000038 00000-0 00000+0 0 673
2 33453 000.0230 237.6820 0001061 002.2850 034.2880 01.00830682 461


she's on the move to 129w!


----------



## ZBoomer

Somebody do the math, how many miles does it have to move to go from 138 to 129, at geosynchronous orbit altitude. 

Something just over 4k miles?


----------



## James Long

ZBoomer said:


> Somebody do the math, how many miles does it have to move to go from 138 to 129, at geosynchronous orbit altitude.
> 
> Something just over 4k miles?


GeoStationary Satellite [source]

Height above equator: 35,785 km (22,236 miles)
Orbit radius: 42,155 km (26,194 miles)
Orbit circumference: 264,869 km (164,582 miles)
Arc length per degree: 736 km (457 miles)
Orbital velocity: 11,066 km/hr= 3.07 km/sec (6,876 miles/hr)

138 to 129 is 9 degrees ... assuming center to center and the accuracy of the math above that is 4113 miles.

Based on the current position of Ciel-2 (136.069) and current TLE, Ciel-2 will reach 129 on 2009-01-27 at 12:58:15. (Tuesday, 1pm.)


----------



## RTCDude

James Long said:


> GeoStationary Satellite [source]
> 
> Based on the current position of Ciel-2 (136.069) and current TLE, Ciel-2 will reach 129 on 2009-01-27 at 12:58:15. (Tuesday, 1pm.)


Pacific, Mountain, Centrel, or Eastern? Gotta make sure we know the exact time


----------



## James Long

Eastern ... but I expect that will change as the satellite slows to a stop (and I didn't calculate it to the minute).


----------



## VBToad

The last few times a sat went into it's assigned orbit it passed it assigned slot and backed up to it So Ceil 2 may pass 129 and then backup to the 129 slot. It should not increase the time NOT much more then John stated. I am no expert, but that has how it happened the last three launches and then again they might have great breaking ability to stop it on a dime and give you 9 cents change.


----------



## JohnH

VBToad said:


> The last few times a sat went into it's assigned orbit it passed it assigned slot and backed up to it So Ceil 2 may pass 129 and then backup to the 129 slot. It should not increase the time NOT much more then John stated. I am no expert, but that has how it happened the last three launches and then again they might have great breaking ability to stop it on a dime and give you 9 cents change.


The reports said the location was beyond the target, but the actual is most likely they went directly to where they were supposed to. The reporting errors are caused by lag in the reported location and the forecasted location calculations went beyond.

A for instance would be, the current TLE info predicts the location to be at 126w on January 28. If there is not another TLE which updates this progress before then, the location on that date would be shown to be 126w. If for some reason a new TLE does not come when the satellite actually reaches 129w, then reports would not indicate that it actually stopped there. TLEs are quite late at stopping time for some reason. Maybe it will be better this time.


----------



## James Long

james long said:


> based on the current position of ciel-2 (136.069) and current tle, ciel-2 will reach 129 on 2009-01-27 at 12:58:15. (tuesday, 1pm.)


More accurately 2009-01-27 12:26:36 Eastern



Code:


Epoch: 2009-01-24 16:44:28

1 33453U 08063A   09024.69755764  .00000027  00000-0  00000+0 0   695
2 33453 000.0483 227.1265 0000221 285.8874 087.0628 01.00835477   474


----------



## MrDogDad

Don't forget that TLEs are snapshots of a particular time. As soon as a spacecraft fires a thruster, the TLE is obsolete. It could be a few days after Ceil-2 is in place before the updated TLE is sent.


----------



## VBToad

Thanks John for the correction. I Didn't think of that hopefully it will be something for me to remember. I can always depend on getting the straight scoop from the intelligent members on this site. (And there are many of you)


----------



## harsh

MrDogDad said:


> Don't forget that TLEs are snapshots of a particular time.


This is absolutely and unequivocally false.

The TLE is a set of coefficients to an equation which describes the path of the satellite. Polar coordinates would be a much simpler representation if that's what they were trying to communicate.


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> The TLE is a set of coefficients to an equation which describes the path of the satellite.


... as of the particular time noted in the TLE. Anything could have happened a minute after the TLE was recorded to change the path of the satellite. We predict the current and future position based on the last known TLE.


----------



## JohnH

Code:


Ciel-2
1 33453u 08063a   09025.65679573  .00000015  00000-0  00000+0 0   704
2 33453 000.0531 230.6246 0000238 300.2796 057.3992 01.00837172   488


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> ... as of the particular time noted in the TLE. Anything could have happened a minute after the TLE was recorded to change the path of the satellite. We predict the current and future position based on the last known TLE.


You'll probably be surprised to learn that this is not true.

The TLE for Ciel-2 a set of coefficients from the model that _satellite operator_ (probably Echostar) provides. It is not a result of NORAD spotting like it used to be. The end result is probably better than what NORAD provided as it _can_ take into account what the operators of the satellite intend to do one minute later.

Obviously, NORAD didn't withhold TLEs as Echostar and DIRECTV seem to be inclined to do and that's why the TLEs can be few and far between when there's lots of tinkering going on.


----------



## James Long

The TLE is a set of coefficients to an equation which describes the path of the satellite as of the particular time noted in the TLE. Anything can happen after that TLE. Regardless of if the source is the operator or tracking.

One would hope that if anything were planned to change the TLE would be updated promptly. Getting that up to the minute update to us as hobbyists isn't a priority. We do seem to be getting a lot of updates on Ciel-2 ... and I'm glad to see them. Even n2yo has the same TLE that JohnH provided above (they can get behind).


----------



## JohnH

Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09026.12130115  .00000009  00000-0  00000+0 0   715
2 33453 000.0231 217.2160 0000317 307.0506 232.6656 01.00837840   491

Sometime tomorrow is should be coming to a stop.


----------



## jgurley

> Sometime tomorrow is should be coming to a stop.


Mmmm Maybe we should start an "Office Pool", the one who guesses the closest time without going over wins.


----------



## JohnH

jgurley said:


> Mmmm Maybe we should start an "Office Pool", the one who guesses the closest time without going over wins.


There is no known way to verify the winning results.


----------



## MrDogDad

harsh said:


> You'll probably be surprised to learn that this is not true.
> 
> The TLE for Ciel-2 a set of coefficients from the model that _satellite operator_ (probably Echostar) provides. It is not a result of NORAD spotting like it used to be. The end result is probably better than what NORAD provided as it _can_ take into account what the operators of the satellite intend to do one minute later.
> 
> Obviously, NORAD didn't withhold TLEs as Echostar and DIRECTV seem to be inclined to do and that's why the TLEs can be few and far between when there's lots of tinkering going on.


Unless you have an insight into the operations at NORAD and USSPACECOM, that I don't, that is incorrect. The TLEs posted to the various websites, come from NORAD via a link to Goddard Space Flight Center, where they are sent by email. I built the interface between NORAD and GSFC, when i worked there. Now it's been 3 years since I retired, but I believe the system is still in place.


----------



## James Long

JohnH said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> CIEL-2
> 1 33453U 08063A   09026.12130115  .00000009  00000-0  00000+0 0   715
> 2 33453 000.0231 217.2160 0000317 307.0506 232.6656 01.00837840   491
> 
> Sometime tomorrow is should be coming to a stop.





Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09026.64059299  .00000003  00000-0  00000+0 0   720
2 33453 000.0430 230.6702 0000442 265.8283 088.9544 01.00838821   493

I've already posted my guess ... which would be early (since it should slow down first?).

Old Guess: 2009-01-27 12:26:36 ET
New Guess: 2009-01-27 12:02:11 ET

Hmmm ...


----------



## ZBoomer

I'm still curious how close they actually put these satellites that share an orbital slot, so they don't risk colliding, yet are still close enough to be seen in the same slot by a dish.

A single degree is over 400 miles at that altitude, so even if they were a mile apart that would seem very close when viewed from earth.

Anyone how how close they put them?


----------



## James Long

One degree in the sky is 457 miles. The satellite slot for DBS is +/- 0.1 degree. The satellites could be as much as 91.4 miles apart and still be in the same slot. Normally they are closer (with some slots having three or more satellites). They also drift around a little (very little). All planned out by rocket scientists so they don't go bump. 

The aim of the dish is rather sloppy. It is designed for satellites 9 degrees apart. (The newer 1000.4 and 1000.5 dishes have a 4.3 degree spacing.) On a regular Dish 1000 or Dish 500 you could probably be 4 degrees off and still get one satellite on one LNB. Getting two or more satellites well is the challenge.

That's the beauty of DBS. The dishes do not have to be aimed as accurately as 2 degree spaced C-Band or FSS satellite dishes. Dish has used FSS slots (105 and 121) and still use a FSS satellite at 118 but most of their channels are on easy to receive DBS locations.

(With Ciel-2 fixing the signal pattern/power problems at 129 VERY soon.)


----------



## James Long

Current:


Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09027.25733019 -.00000004  00000-0  00000+0 0   730
2 33453 000.0747 238.3905 0000390 265.9813 304.9727 01.00838804   503

(No real change in the predicted path/speed ... location 129.874°W)
(TLE is about 6 1/2 hours old)


----------



## harsh

MrDogDad said:


> Unless you have an insight into the operations at NORAD and USSPACECOM, that I don't, that is incorrect.


I encourage you to read the Celestrak page about supplemental TLEs http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/supplemental.

If you think about it, SSN observations probably shouldn't slow down in frequency as activity increases but the availability of TLEs quite obviously does.


----------



## James Long

I like updates ...


Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09027.42697682 -.00000006  00000-0  00000+0 0   747
2 33453 000.0718 237.3352 0000480 260.6919 012.9059 01.00838958   509

Negiligible change ... about six hours old.


----------



## MrDogDad

harsh said:


> I encourage you to read the Celestrak page about supplemental TLEs http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/supplemental.
> 
> If you think about it, SSN observations probably shouldn't slow down in frequency as activity increases but the availability of TLEs quite obviously does.


The Supplemental TLEs are for GPS, GLONASS, METEOSAT, and Intelsat birds only. Obviously, spacecraft operators have access to much more accurate pointing data along with projected orbital elements to use following maneuvers.
There is no reason that Ciel would make this data public. The only Ciel-2 TLEs that I've seen published have been NORAD elements.


----------



## JohnH

Edit: It is now about 80 kilometers higher and moving slower. 129.03 approx.


Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09027.70000000  .00000014  00000-0  00000+0 0   759
2 33453 000.0500 208.8710 0009758 268.3460 132.6310 01.00685362   501


----------



## russ9

I will be very happy when it is transmitting. I've been seeing many more weather related dropouts on 129 this winter.


----------



## James Long

Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09028.11625966  .00000012  00000-0  00000+0 0   768
2 33453 000.0494 238.0611 0010669 234.3524 288.2988 01.00682489   512

Basically the same prediction as the last one JohnH posted.
Epoch about six hours ago with the current position predicted to be:
128.1953 W @ 35629km (Echostar 5 is at 128.882 W @ 35795km).


----------



## JohnH

Yeah, the confusion starts again. That TLE shows the altitude to be back where it was before the previous one. Maybe they have trouble sorting out the ones that are all bunched up at the "same" slot.

I would think Ciel-2 is actually at 129 and doing final orientation maneuvers.


----------



## JohnH

Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09028.40000000  .00000055  00000-0  00000+0 0   774
2 33453 000.0430 217.8290 0009104 083.8930 201.2470 01.00381140   511

35717 X 35793 approx.
128.7 slowly drifting east


----------



## JohnH

Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09028.46302537  .00000063  00000-0  00000+0 0   780
2 33453 000.0521 238.7158 0004003 076.2485 210.7450 01.00315269   513

Still drifting east, but like .15 deg. per day now.


----------



## jacmyoung

JohnH said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> CIEL-2
> 1 33453U 08063A   09028.46302537  .00000063  00000-0  00000+0 0   780
> 2 33453 000.0521 238.7158 0004003 076.2485 210.7450 01.00315269   513
> 
> Still drifting east, but like .15 deg. per day now.


It is likely already on location, we just need someone to report to us that it has finally phoned home


----------



## James Long

jacmyoung said:


> It is likely already on location, we just need someone to report to us that it has finally phoned home


It phoned home a long time ago ... and hasn't been out of contact since. Constant TT&C communications to make sure it is where it should be and stays there (or moves where it needs to go).

The current track of E5 confuses me (not in the 128.9 - 129.1 window?). Perhaps there is more we don't know that we don't know we don't know?


----------



## jacmyoung

James Long said:


> It phoned home a long time ago ... and hasn't been out of contact since. Constant TT&C communications to make sure it is where it should be and stays there (or moves where it needs to go).
> 
> The current track of E5 confuses me (not in the 128.9 - 129.1 window?). Perhaps there is more we don't know that we don't know we don't know?


I was talking about that "someone" among our resident experts to tell us when they have finally registered a signal from C-2 on their expensive meters from the 129 West location. Of course they need to be able to aim their dishes correctly first


----------



## JohnH

Maybe 128.8 is the real destination. Seems to be parked there.



Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09028.90000000  .00000069  00000-0  00000+0 0   796
2 33453 000.0490 215.5860 0002053 072.1500 035.7060 01.00271357   518

Galaxy 27(T7) probably has the 129.0 slot. The original Philadelphia Locals satellite that was declared dead, but partially came back due to some engineers at Intelsat.


----------



## James Long

That would work. I checked my reference ... they can be +/- 0.2 degrees, not +/- 0.1 degrees.


----------



## Aransay

heope alll epopel taht ahe issus with 128 oudl enyoy it


in my case still waitng to test dish mexico,


----------



## ljr01

Sometime within the last few hours my signal strength for 129 has nearly doubled. Am I talking to the new satellite or is it global warming?


----------



## RandallA

ljr01 said:


> Sometime within the last few hours my signal strength for 129 has nearly doubled. Am I talking to the new satellite or is it global warming?


On what transponder and what's the signal strength you see?


----------



## JohnH

Yeah, we could use reports of signal strength changes.
Please include your location and what transponders/Spotbeams you are reporting.


----------



## James Long

ljr01 said:


> Sometime within the last few hours my signal strength for 129 has nearly doubled. Am I talking to the new satellite or is it global warming?


I certainly hope you're not talking to the new satellite!
Hopefully you are just listening. 

I would not be surprised to see more reports of better signal.


----------



## skynet98

same weak signal, reporting from mexico city.


----------



## James Long

skynet98 said:


> same weak signal, reporting from mexico city.


For a Canadian licensed satellite intended to cover JUST the US with one beam and Canada with another (plus spotbeams covering various areas in the US and Canada) coverage outside the US is not expected.

Even AK/HI coverage is limited to specific spots.


----------



## nmetro

I just checked, the Denver HD locals are on TP 2 on the old 129, but on TP 4 for Ciel-2. Right now, the Denver HD locals are still being sent from the old 129 satellite. So, am I missing something here concerning activation of Ciel-2? Signals are in the high 20s through the 30s depending on which TP one looks at; the same when the technician came here about three months ago to repeak the dish and replaced the 129 LNB.


----------



## James Long

Are you getting a signal on TP4? Is it calling itself a "Spotbeam"?
Once DISH starts using the spots and new transponders I expect uplink activity to show moves. The temporary duplicates on TP4 would be just a test until then.


----------



## nmetro

I just checked all the 129 transponders, the highest signal I get is 44 on TP 10. Many TPs are at 39 or 40. TP 2, TP 6 are in the high 20s, TP 4 was 40. On some TPs the point dish screen returns a signal bar very quickly, while other like TP 2, TP 6 take forever. I suspect that right now if two satellites are sending signals on 129, then there must be some "handing off delays" between one satellite or another.

At any rate if the new 129 is active, then my increase is an average of 10 points and not double as some people have reported. That is, my average strength was about 28; one would think it would go to an average of 56 for example. But, with the repeak, new LNB and new satellite it may be enough to take care of rain feed and satellite drift issues. Only time will tell.


----------



## nmetro

Signals on TPs taken at 6:15 MST.
Location: Lat: 40-09-49.217 N Long: 105-09-46.933 W
(I live 1/2 mile SE of an airport at the above coordinates)
Outside temperature: 35 F
Winds: Calm
Sky Conditions: Clear

TP Strength
1 38
2 31
3 34
4 39
5 33
6 34
7 34
8 36
9 37
10 47
11 36
12 23
13 41
14 33
15 42
16 32
17 33
18 31
19 33
20 XX
21 31
22 32
23 32
24 XX
25 XX
26 XX
27 32
28 37
29 28
30 XX
31 30
32 39


----------



## BattleZone

No way Ciel-2 is actively broadcasting anything. They have to park it, do some tests, then verify that all of the uplinks are working. I'd say we're still looking at 2, maybe even 3 weeks before it goes hot.


----------



## James Long

IIP said:


> No way Ciel-2 is actively broadcasting anything. They have to park it, do some tests, then verify that all of the uplinks are working. I'd say we're still looking at 2, maybe even 3 weeks before it goes hot.


Testing was done at 138 ... I'd be surprised if we don't see at least some ConUS in use by the end of next week.

Today would be a little early. But we can hope!


----------



## JohnH

Code:


CIEL-2
1 33453U 08063A   09029.52577598  .00000070  00000-0  00000+0 0   800
2 33453 000.0472 235.1537 0001708 049.7935 264.4020 01.00274407   522

Still at 128.8.


----------



## ljr01

RandallA said:


> On what transponder and what's the signal strength you see?





ljr01 said:


> Sometime within the last few hours my signal strength for 129 has nearly doubled. Am I talking to the new satellite or is it global warming?


I'm back to "normal" today which is low 30's. Yesterday I was at 60 for awhile. Both transponder 6. I'm on Skidaway Island in GA.


----------



## Brandon428

A few questions. When the sat is finished testing what channels are most likely to be launched besides locals. Also how much bandwidth does the Ciel-2 provide,will it be enough for Dish to stop downrezzing their HD? Also how many local markets will they be able to provide with it?


----------



## JohnH

Brandon428 said:


> A few questions. When the sat is finished testing what channels are most likely to be launched besides locals. Also how much bandwidth does the Ciel-2 provide,will it be enough for Dish to stop downrezzing their HD? Also how many local markets will they be able to provide with it?


National HDs, who knows which?

A slogan from the past: More channels, more choices. 
Downrezzing is likely to continue and bandwidth compression is likely to grow.

Number of local markets is not known and will change as technology changes.


----------



## rbgator95

James Long said:


> Even AK/HI coverage is limited to specific spots.


HI is in the minority that stands to lose from the deal. We have been receiving E5 (except during the wobble intervals) so will likely go from part-time HD to no HD - depending on what is in store for HI with the Ciel-2 spotbeam. Although E* says that "HI gets what they need off 110" that satellite is even more variable... even in good weather the signal fluctuates dramatically (including to zero). When E5 wasn't wobbling, the signal was low but consistent - even during marginal weather that took 110 out of the picture (literally). So, as far as HI goes, 129 seems like a much better orbital slot than 110.


----------



## davethestalker

When Ciel is fully functioning, how will this affect those on the Eastern Arc? The channels are supposed to be "mirrored" and if the EA is less 1 satellite, how can they be properly mirrored?


----------



## harsh

davethestalker said:


> When Ciel is fully functioning, how will this affect those on the Eastern Arc?


It will have no effect on the Eastern Arc other than not holding back possible expansion.

Ciel-2 doesn't put the Eastern Arc down one satellite as Echostar V will likely be moved or shut down as a substantially failed satellite.


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> It will have no effect on the Eastern Arc other than not holding back possible expansion.
> 
> Ciel-2 doesn't put the Eastern Arc down one satellite as Echostar V will likely be moved or shut down as a substantially failed satellite.


E5 will be on it's way to 148 in March. E1 from 148 will be on it's way to 77 to serve Mexico. E4 at 77 is at the end of it's odd life. Quesat will be replacing the satellites at 77 with their own Mexican/American service satellite similar to Ciel-2's Canadian/American service satellite.

The balance between what arc is holding up the other is a matter of opinion. The 4800 range TMP channels are (mostly) available on both arcs. E5 at 129 has been a problem since day 1 but there was no other option. E3 at 61.5 was scheduled for replacement but AMC-14 was lost on launch (it is still floating over Africa). Each arc seems to have it's own problems.


----------



## rocatman

James Long said:


> E5 will be on it's way to 148 in March. E1 from 148 will be on it's way to 77 to serve Mexico. E4 at 77 is at the end of it's odd life. Quesat will be replacing the satellites at 77 with their own Mexican/American service satellite similar to Ciel-2's Canadian/American service satellite.
> 
> The balance between what arc is holding up the other is a matter of opinion. The 4800 range TMP channels are (mostly) available on both arcs. E5 at 129 has been a problem since day 1 but there was no other option. E3 at 61.5 was scheduled for replacement but AMC-14 was lost on launch (it is still floating over Africa). Each arc seems to have it's own problems.


Purely speculation but once the Nimiq 5 is launched to 72.7 W, the E-6 satellite will be freed up to probably be moved to 61.5 W to help out E-3 and E-12 especially with the 4 TPs that Dish can not provide programming from at 61.5 W. There is also the possibility that Dish will have use of all 32 TPs at 72.7 W once Nimiq 5 is launched and DirecTV moves all there programming off that slot. The Canadian government requirements on Nimiq 5 is just like Ciel-2 i.e., 50% of capacity (16 TPs) reserved for Canadian use until the satellite is launched and if there is not interest than the those 16 can be leased for use in other countries. Dish has use of 16 TPs for sure and actually Bell TV has leased the entire 32 TPs from Telesat, the satellite owner. Not sure if Bell TV plans to use those 16 TPs or is there an unoffical agreement between them and Dish on leasing the other 16 in exchange for good deals on Dish receivers since Bell TV uses Dish receivers in Canada.


----------



## nospmahm

Should I select the transponder for 129 that gives the best signal strength?


----------



## P Smith

nospmahm said:


> Should I select the transponder for 129 that gives the best signal strength?


For what ? And Ciel-2 is not providing anything for you or us yet.


----------



## levibluewa

The New 129! Yeah!!!


----------



## nospmahm

P Smith,
OK, I asked my question about which transponder to use 1 day too soon. I am now getting stronger signals on 129 than I am on 110 and 119. Good for Dish.
Now, do I select the strongest transponder for 129?
I am in the dark about this satellite stuff!!!!


----------



## RollTide1017

Do you actually select a transponder? I now you can select different ones in the signal strength test screen but, does that lock you onto that transponder? I thought it was just for test purposed and that the transponder you use depends on the channel you are watching at the moment (ie. My locals will be on tp 8 when they launch soon according to the uplink report and I've noticed that some national HD channels I watch come from tp 31 I think). So, I don't think it would be any benefit to lock onto one single transponder unless I'm wrong about how this whole thing works of course.


----------



## nospmahm

RollTide,
Thanks for your input. I noted channel 200 was 80 on 129, switched to the new 205 HD and it is now 42 on 129.
That confirms I have no choice of transponders.
Thanks


----------



## JohnH

That is correct.


----------



## Todd Nicholson

Transponder 21 is 80% up here in the Pacific Northwest. Nice


----------



## tymekeeper

about 2X the signal, TBS HD was the worst on old 129 TP 6 at about 25 now on TP 24 at 54 in morning and 47 this afternoon. sat appears the be at 128.75 and altitude is still moving up.


----------



## levibluewa

01 - 45
02 - 30
03 - 44
04 - 45
05 - 44
06 - 0
07 - 0
08 - 43
09 - 46
10 - 45
11 - 0
12 - 31
13 - 43
14 - 30
15 - 43 Spotbeam
16 - 41
17 - 68
18 - 48
19 - 54
20 - 48
31 - 68
22 - 48
23 - 54
34 - 48
25 - 53
26 - 48
27 - 54
28 - 57
29 - 55
30 - 45
31 - 55
32 - 59

No way to prove it, but I think some of the tp readings are from the old sat.


----------



## levibluewa

1st 31 should be 21


----------



## James Long

Ciel-2 can only do ConUS on TP17-32. Anything ConUS below 17 is E5.


----------



## levibluewa

01 = 43
02 = 29
03 = 41
04 = 41
05 = 41
06 = 0
07 = 30 (30 sec. wait b4 a reading)
08 = 40
09 = 41
10 = 37
11 = 0
12 = 12 (coming out of a fall)
13 = 22
14 = 24
15 = 25 Spotbeam
16 = 26
_______
17 = 70
18 = 50
19 = 56
20 = 51
21 = 70
22 = 51
23 = 56
24 = 52
25 = 54
26 = 50
27 = 56
28 = 60
29 = 56
30 = 47
31 = 57
32 = 61


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## peano

Perfectly clear day in Western, NY and I am getting higher strengths on 1 - 16 than I am on 17 - 32 with the exception of TP17 and TP21 which are both at 67. How is that possible???


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## P Smith

Don't accept reading SS after first 15 sec - it would come from adjusted tpn because if selected tpn have no lock/signal FW will shift LOF settings to autotuneup, but the range of autotune is too wide what will take other tpn.


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## carl.066

As of this afternoon, in the block still in use by Echo 5 (1-16), Transponders 3, 6, 11 and 13 are either off or are now running Ciel-2 spotbeams. They are not viewable here.
The CONUS transponders are as follows:
17 - 84
18 - 65
19 - 69
20 - 66
21 - 84
22 - 65
23 - 68
24 - 65
25 - 66
26 - 64
27 - 69
28 - 77
29 - 71
30 - 64
31 - 70
32 - 82

I'm using 3 90cm dishes with legacy LNBs, aimed at 110, 119 and 129. Receiver is a standard 411 and switches are SW21 and GC-SW21XB.


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## P Smith

I don't see significant changes here using D1000+; 
a few goes up: tp5 +10, tp7 +5, tp11 +11 but signal still fluctuating, so the delta is not a constant.


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## James Long

P Smith said:


> I don't see significant changes here using D1000+;
> a few goes up: tp5 +10, tp7 +5, tp11 +11 but signal still fluctuating, so the delta is not a constant.


I would not expect changes on TPs less that 17. Only 17-32 are ConUS.

You may see some changes tonight on the lower TPs ... spotbeams are on 1-16.


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## jgurley

What is the elevation of Ceil-2? I used James' formular of 119-110+119 and in my case it equaled 34 degrees. (both 110 and 119 are 34 on my point dish menu). Could this be right? E-5 for me was 28 degrees.

I ask this because a member of my local avsforum is considering Dish now that our locals HD are hopefully coming soon and he wanted some info on 129.


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## HDRoberts

jgurley said:


> What is the elevation of Ceil-2? I used James' formular of 119-110+119 and in my case it equaled 34 degrees. (both 110 and 119 are 34 on my point dish menu). Could this be right? E-5 for me was 28 degrees.
> 
> I ask this because a member of my local avsforum is considering Dish now that our locals HD are hopefully coming soon and he wanted some info on 129.


http://www.dishpointer.com/?address=Salem,+VA&satellite=-129#

According to this, 23.5 degrees from Salem.

Unless you are at 114.5 degrees west, 110 and 119 will not have the same elevation. The farther one will be lower in the sky.


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## carl.066

jgurley said:


> What is the elevation of Ceil-2? I used James' formular of 119-110+119 and in my case it equaled 34 degrees. (both 110 and 119 are 34 on my point dish menu). Could this be right? E-5 for me was 28 degrees.
> 
> I ask this because a member of my local avsforum is considering Dish now that our locals HD are hopefully coming soon and he wanted some info on 129.


Ciel-2 and EchoStar 5 are now essentially co-located. If your friend goes with Dish, they'll probably install a Dish 1000 antenna. For zipcodes 241XX, the installation manual says the pointing info is 240 AZ, 30 EL and 129 SK. 
Reports are that HD locals from Lynchburg/Roanoke will be up sometime in March on 129, and possibly mirrored on 61.5.


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## zyrafa7

Now that the new satelitte is taking over at 129 degrees will I be able to see it in New Jersey? Is there any reason for me to add this location to my setup?

Thanks in advance


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## James Long

New Jersey is a bit far east. It will be hard to get and you won't need it.


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## JohnH

Elevation would be less than 19 degrees.


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## dvcrazy

Does anyone have all the transponder frequencies? I've been looking everywhere but no luck.


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## James Long

dvcrazy said:


> Does anyone have all the transponder frequencies? I've been looking everywhere but no luck.


Standard DBS frequencies are used.


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## peano

P Smith said:


> Don't accept reading SS after first 15 sec - it would come from adjusted tpn because if selected tpn have no lock/signal FW will shift LOF settings to autotuneup, but the range of autotune is too wide what will take other tpn.


Checked again and waited 2 min. per transponder. TPs 17 - 32 are all 46 - 53 except for two in the 60s on my Dish1000+. So only 2 transponders better than the old 129. Oh well. I guess Western NY is not a priority.


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## James Long

Western NY isn't exactly the primary target area but the area where E5 was weakest is likely where we'll see the most improvement.


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## P Smith

peano said:


> Checked again and *waited 2 min. per transponder*. TPs 17 - 32 are all 46 - 53 except for two in the 60s on my Dish1000+. So only 2 transponders better than the old 129. Oh well. I guess Western NY is not a priority.


That's wrong. I warned - wait not more then 15 sec, max 30. If there no signal on particular tpn, you'll get reading from *OTHER *tpn !

See what realy happening: this 'skyscan' picture produced by BLSA for 7:57am 2/4 - 8:20am 2/5 PST in Bay Area:









Hint for decoding:
<tpn>
2
4
6
8
..
28
30
32
<gap>
31
29
27
...
5
3
1
8am.. 12pm..6pm...9pm..12am..6am..8am
Black to white gradations shows signal level.
One vertical line - one sample taken once per minute.
Most changes happened around and after 12am PST.


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## BillJ

I keep hoping they'll move Chicago local HD to the more powerful 129 satellite but no luck so far. Yesterday when I checked local signal strength it was 32. Last night in the middle of ER, which I had confirmed was coming from 129, the picture froze and the sound dropped. Sound came back shortly but picture was still frozen. After several seconds video resumed. I checked and as I suspected the receiver had switched to 61.5 (they broadcast HD locals from both satellites). DISH, EITHER GET 129 UP TO POWER OR GIVE US THE ABILITY TO SELECT 61.5 AS DEFAULT SATELLITE!


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## peano

P Smith said:


> That's wrong. I warned - wait not more then 15 sec, max 30. If there no signal on particular tpn, you'll get reading from *OTHER *tpn !


Ok, but my strengths don't change at all from 0 sec to 5 minutes. Maybe by one point, but thats it.


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## ZBoomer

BillJ said:


> DISH, EITHER GET 129 UP TO POWER OR GIVE US THE ABILITY TO SELECT 61.5 AS DEFAULT SATELLITE!


If you get both 129 and 61.5 and want 61.5 only, cover the 129 LNB with foil, run check-switch.


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## peano

Checking again today I had about a 5 point increase across the board with the weather a bit worse, so I guess they are still tweaking.


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## ibglowin

Anyone know if CIEL-2 has completely replaced E-5? at 129 or are things still being broadcast on both? I have had a wing dish for 129 with no problems. Some friends in the same DMA as me have a Dish 1000. They are experiencing constant dropouts on 129. I am trying to see if they may need a realignment or just go with a wing dish at 129 as well.


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## P Smith

It will req fine aim, sat is OK. Or change the dish/LNBF, cables, switch, F-connectors.


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## levibluewa

problems with 129 now!


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## BobaBird

Ciel II has been running 129 since February. E*5 arrived at 148 near the end of May, and was de-orbited to a higher orbit in early August.
http://www.dishuser.org/satellites.php


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## ibglowin

Thanks for the replies, must be an alignment problem on their end.


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