# Why go with a 721???



## adsman (Oct 25, 2002)

I currently have a 501 and have always been a big supporter of Dish, but why in the world would I pay that much money for dual tuner pvr (721). The Direct Tivo's will dual tuners are waaay cheaper...I know they have the Tivo charge but wouldn't it be worth it with a much better functionally ?? I am just curious and would like any feed back pro or con...


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

If you want Dual Tuners on Dish its your only choice. Most people like the TiVos more, but you usually pay a little less on Dish than DirecTV for service so that is more important for some people.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

E 721 price hasnt been made competive since direct lowere the tivo price.

E management is asleep at the switch.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Dish doesn't subsubdize it's equipment as much as does DirecTV, thus it is higher. 

I've also noticed that Dish hasn't been pushing their PVR product as much as they have in the past, concentrating on the low-end AT-50 market and four receivers. Interesting....

I'm going to wait with future equipment acquisitions until I see how things shake out. It would be nice to have the 721 be cheaper. But, at the time I got Dish (September, 2001), the only way to get WB and UPN was through the Superstations, and Dish has only the single tuner PVR.


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## mattmcg (Dec 12, 2002)

There are a couple of reasons I went with the 721 over a 500 series or a DirecTV DVR.

1. I like having dual tuner. Watching a show and recording another gives you the ultimate in freedom. As of now, I'm watching the Titans game and recording an HBO show! Couldn't do that with a 500 series!
2. The DirecTV DVR only handles 35 hours of recording versus my 90+ on the 721!
3. No monthly subscription fee!
4. No analog dial out. For me being a techy, there is just something wrong with using a dialup connection to download programming information when you've got a high speed broadband satellite link available to perform guide updating. Dialup modem is just clugey.
5. And the price of the 721 didn't matter as it was given as a Christmas gift! Really nice!


My $.02. Hope it helps.


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

Here is a brief rebuttal to the above post:

1. All Directv PVR's have dual tuners.
2. The Directv PVR's are all easily upgradeable by simply replacing the hard drive. Some have upgraded their DirecTivo's up to 200+ hours. My UTV's are 105 hours and 70 hours respectively.
3. You get you pay for. No PVR fee, but an up-front cost of $500! Makes having multiple PVRs out of reach for most folks. The $4.99 fee is money well spent for flawless funtionality.
4. I don't know where you got this one, but you could not be more wrong. Guide data comes over satellite for all Directv PVR's, and the guide is 15 days, not 9. With the possible abandonment of mirroring fees for STB's that are connected to phone lines, I'll take a dial-up.
5. You're lucky to receive such an expensive Christmas gift.

I'd like to add the following:

6. All Directv PVR's have parental controls.
7. Directv PVR's use name-based recording and have the ability to search and record programs on any station at any time.

Just want to make sure you have all the facts before making a decision.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

I was lucky. I sold both of my Dishplayers on E-Bay and was able to spring for the 721 without paying more than $50. I must say I like the 721 mainly for 2 reasons. First, navigating the menus is very fast especially the programming guide. Second, there are no monthly PVR fees which I thought were bogus in the first place. 

There is much controversy about the differences between the DirecTV PVR's and Dish's PVR's. All I can tell you is that you will like the 721. It's a nice unit and works well. If you choose to go with DirecTV, just be prepared to pay the extra monthly PVR fee and have less recording time. And before anyone says that the DirecTivo can be upgraded, just remember, the hard drive isn't free so you will be sinking another $100 or so into your initial DirecTivo purchase. So you see, it all balances out.

Judging from what I have seen having a 721, I'm already looking forward to the 921. I think Dish is on the right track with their introduction of the 501/508 and the 721. Although I still would like to see the season pass function and named based recording on the 721, I don't really miss having them and for the first time with a Dish PVR, I can finally just watch TV.


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## mattmcg (Dec 12, 2002)

Karl_F, little sensitive aren't we? I'm not looking to start a bash of Dish vs. DirecTV but I wish you wouldn't step on some very salient facts I've presented.

To your points:
1. Manually changing the harddrive yourself costs you more (with throw away parts) and voids your warranty. Box for box, you get more recording capability with a stock 721 than stock DVR.
2. Yes, I'd love name based recording. Hopefully Dish will integrate it into the 721!
3. Monthly PVR fees bite.
4. Dish allows rating locks to control programming. Works well.
5. New subscribers can pick up a 721 for $350 with dish500 installed. For new subscribers, you can get a DirecTV DVR for $300 but still have the $5/month fee. So, in 10 months, you're negative on the DirecTV DVR.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mattmcg _
> *1. Manually changing the harddrive yourself costs you more (with throw away parts) and voids your warranty. Box for box, you get more recording capability with a stock 721 than stock DVR.
> *


So don't change it. If you need 90 hours of space then get a bigger box. BUT 99% of all users don't need that kind of capability. Remember thats almost 60 VHS tapes.


> *
> 2. Yes, I'd love name based recording. Hopefully Dish will integrate it into the 721!
> *


Sure and pigs will fly.


> *
> 3. Monthly PVR fees bite.
> *


Not all DirecTV subs pay the fee, just those who don't subscribe to certain packages. So to say all DirecTV subs pay fees is really misrepresenting everything. Oh yea and I like paying $300 more for a PVR. 


> *
> 5. New subscribers can pick up a 721 for $350 with dish500 installed. For new subscribers, you can get a DirecTV DVR for $300 but still have the $5/month fee. So, in 10 months, you're negative on the DirecTV DVR. *


Again you don't have to pay the monthly fee. So why do you keep bringing it up like its a requirement. :bang: Anyway existing Dish subs get screwed like usual.


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## mattmcg (Dec 12, 2002)

Boy, that's great. Now let me pay another $7/month for the difference between America's everything pak and the Total Choice Premier package just to get the monthly Tivo fee waived. $50 dollar difference with $7 dollars a month means you're net negative with DirecTV after month 7.....

And who's saying I wanted to change my hardrive? I'm saying I don't want to and 'normal' people shouldn't want to as well! Stock device to stock device, the 721 has more storage capacity than the DirecTV DVR. That is the fact I'm making. I use easily 70+ hours of capacity consistently while PVR'ing movies for the family to watch later. A very important feature to consider seriously when making a decision!


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

Matt,

The original poster needs to go see both types of PVR's in action and make an informed decision. He needs to decide the following:

1. What programming is most important - i.e. NFL Sunday Ticket, MLB Extra Innings side with Directv. International programming and superstations side with Dish Network.

2. Are locals available with either or both systems? Is that important? To my wife that was a deal-breaker until they became available. 

3. After he decides on programming needs, then the decision for PVR serivce is easy. If Dish has the programming he needs, then the PVR 721 is what he needs. If Directv has the programming he needs, then the DirecTivo or Ultimatetv are what he needs.

4. Both types of machines have their advantages. I personally don't balk at paying a PVR fee for a low purchase price (I paid only $39 for each of my two units). I have never had problems, bugs, etc. on my equipment. As a former 501 owner, I prefer the name-based dual-tuner recording on Directv and am willing to pay for it each month. To me it is money well spent. Both machines have limitations and the original poster needs to decide which features are most important.

Sorry I sounded so PMSish in my last post. 

p.s. I wasn't aware that the 721 had parental controls. The first units were shipped without, so I apologize for the misrepresentation.


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## tm22721 (Nov 8, 2002)

Neither E* nor D* treat their existing subs very well.

There is a defense. Switch back and forth every few years, getting the latest technology cheap. Then two years later recoup by selling on Ebay.

E*/D* hate 'churn' since they are subsidizing new subs' equipment purchase. If eniough people did this they would be forced to change their policy toward existing subs.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mattmcg _
> *Boy, that's great. Now let me pay another $7/month for the difference between America's everything pak and the Total Choice Premier package just to get the monthly Tivo fee waived. $50 dollar difference with $7 dollars a month means you're net negative with DirecTV after month 7.....*


Oh let me not be able to watch NFL Sunday Ticket and MLB Extra Innings as well as MEGA March Madness. So what it costs $7 more. That would take over 2 years to get that back because you paid more for the 721. 



> *
> And who's saying I wanted to change my hard rive? I'm saying I don't want to and 'normal' people shouldn't want to as well! Stock device to stock device, the 721 has more storage capacity than the DirecTV DVR. That is the fact I'm making. I use easily 70+ hours of capacity consistently while PVR'ing movies for the family to watch later. A very important feature to consider seriously when making a decision! *


Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about. 70 hours isn't important to most people, a unit that works, has name based recording and season pass is much more valuable than extra recording time. Its like saying everyone needs a super fast computer when all they do is run AOL and play solitaire. :bang:


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *So don't change it. If you need 90 hours of space then get a bigger box. BUT 99% of all users don't need that kind of capability. Remember thats almost 60 VHS tapes.*


What kind of tapes do you buy that are only an hour and a half? With standard 6 hour tapes, 90 hours is only 15 tapes.

Dennis


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## bearklaw (Jan 3, 2003)

Another difference - a TiVO box collects a ton of information about what you are watching, what you skipped, remote button presses, etc, and sends them back to TiVO. Currently TiVO only aggregates the data before sending it out, but some people don't like the thought of them having that information at all.

-BearKlaw


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## mattmcg (Dec 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *
> Oh let me not be able to watch NFL Sunday Ticket and MLB Extra Innings as well as MEGA March Madness. So what it costs $7 more. That would take over 2 years to get that back because you paid more for the 721.
> 
> Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about. 70 hours isn't important to most people, a unit that works, has name based recording and season pass is much more valuable than extra recording time. Its like saying everyone needs a super fast computer when all they do is run AOL and play solitaire. :bang: *


Are you having trouble reading? I paid $50 extra dollars for my 721 over a DirecTV DVR. So, apples to apples, a $7 dollar difference breaks even in 7 months and makes you net negative with DVR after that........ Numbers are numbers.

You don't get NFL Sunday Ticket, MLB or Mega for free either. With both companies, you pay for these services. I'll agree, Dish has been slower to add the sports packages but they are coming or have been added. If you don't care about these things (like me) then neither company has an advantage. I only watch the home teams......

I guess recording time doesn't matter to you. It matters to me. It was a feature I ranked high on my list. With all of this talk of upgrading harddrives on the Tivo units, others are interested as well. Perhaps I should ask, "Have you upgraded your harddrive?"

AND YES, NAME BASED RECORDING IS A HUGE PLUS! I wish the 721 had it. But, all in all, it was the only downfall I could find with the 721.

Of course, this is my $.02.


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## marko (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *
> 
> Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about. 70 hours isn't important to most people, a unit that works, has name based recording and season pass is much more valuable than extra recording time. Its like saying everyone needs a super fast computer when all they do is run AOL and play solitaire. :bang: *


I might disagree with you here. I have a 501, and that 35 hours isn't near enough. Especially with kids. Man, if I had 70 hours, I could keep my current recordings I have now, and tape 18 movies for the kids. That would be great. Maybe it is because I have kids that I use so much. But I bet if you would look at most people that have 501's, they probably are similar to me in that they only have like 5 hours free at any certain time.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dbronstein _
> *
> 
> What kind of tapes do you buy that are only an hour and a half? With standard 6 hour tapes, 90 hours is only 15 tapes.
> ...


That shows you how much I use tapes. I've always hated VCRs for their quality so I guess I assume all tapes were 90 minutes. :lol:


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mattmcg _
> *
> 
> Are you having trouble reading? I paid $50 extra dollars for my 721 over a DirecTV DVR. So, apples to apples, a $7 dollar difference breaks even in 7 months and makes you net negative with DVR after that........ Numbers are numbers.*


What is your problem? Are you that myopic? You paid 300 for you 721, I paid $50 for my TiVo.



> *
> You don't get NFL Sunday Ticket, MLB or Mega for free either. With both companies, you pay for these services. I'll agree, Dish has been slower to add the sports packages but they are coming or have been added. If you don't care about these things (like me) then neither company has an advantage. I only watch the home teams......*


No advantage? How can you say that? Dish won't be getting NFL ST for many years. I like the ability to watch what I want to rather than what Dish wants me to.


> *
> I guess recording time doesn't matter to you. It matters to me. It was a feature I ranked high on my list. With all of this talk of upgrading hard drives on the Tivo units, others are interested as well. Perhaps I should ask, "Have you upgraded your hard drive?"
> *


Of course I upgraded my hard drive. But as I said I'm not a typical user. As I said most people would never fit more than 30 hours on their units. BUT, I have no proof other than friends to relate that too, so if you have data to show me where the average Dish sub is filling more than 35 hours on their PVR, I'd like to see it.


> *
> AND YES, NAME BASED RECORDING IS A HUGE PLUS! I wish the 721 had it. But, all in all, it was the only downfall I could find with the 721.
> 
> Of course, this is my $.02. *


I concur.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by marko _
> *
> 
> I might disagree with you here. I have a 501, and that 35 hours isn't near enough. Especially with kids. Man, if I had 70 hours, I could keep my current recordings I have now, and tape 18 movies for the kids. That would be great. Maybe it is because I have kids that I use so much. But I bet if you would look at most people that have 501's, they probably are similar to me in that they only have like 5 hours free at any certain time. *


Right but we are not average PVR users here. I'm talking about Joe Blow in Kentucky who records CSI every week and not much else...


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

James,

It looks like you got thrown to the wolves here.

These guys don't know the value of name-based recording. That alone, to me, is worth the Directv PVR charge. These guys act like $5 per month ($10 in my case) is going to send them to bankruptcy court, or take food away from their families. Pack a lunch once a month and don't go to McDonalds - that'll pay the friggin' Tivo fee. Sheesh!

I am also not a typical user. I bought my two units when they were heavily subsidized and upgraded both. I am into both UTV units for $300 total. While I know these deals aren't around any more, that is what I paid.

It's just tv. When I start seeing posts such as these

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11375

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11273

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11460

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11225

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10838

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10847

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10435

about Directv PVR's, I'll consider switching. These aren't even old threads, these are all since January 1st, and there are many more. No reboots, no timer limits, and name-based recording. Seems I made the correct choice for me. Worry-free tv, that's what I am paying for.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Its almost like they are lemmings heading off the cliff. :nono:


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## pernar (Jan 20, 2003)

Lemmings? Ever consider that some of us actually prefer Dish's programming and hardware? You're like a little kid who is arguing on the playground about whose video game system is cooler. I've only been reading this forum since Saturday, and the only posts I see from you are antagonistic and immature. Every time I read a post that makes me roll my eyes, I always see your name next to it. Grow up.


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## marko (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *
> 
> Right but we are not average PVR users here. I'm talking about Joe Blow in Kentucky who records CSI every week and not much else... *


Joe Blow in Kentucky probably isn't going to have PVR system. Just by having a PVR system, you are already a certain type of user. My guess is a good percentage of these people really use their machines. Who knows. Answer probably lies somewhere in between what we view.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Believe it or not, there are people who are satisfied with Dish and don't want to change to DirecTV just to get a PVR. 

Dennis


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pernar _
> *<snip> *


You know what, I almost walked away, but your last comment ticked me off. I'm not the one saying that TiVo is any better than Dish. I've put up with this "Rah, Rah" Dish attitude for too long and I'm done putting up with it. You know what? If you don't like my posts then just walk away. Better yet, just add me to your ignore list. I'd hate to like I was educating an putz like yourself.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by marko _
> *
> 
> Joe Blow in Kentucky probably isn't going to have PVR system. Just by having a PVR system, you are already a certain type of user. My guess is a good percentage of these people really use their machines. Who knows. Answer probably lies somewhere in between what we view. *


Exactly, is 35 hours enough. Not for me. Could my grandmother add a hard drive to a DirecTiVo. Not likely. But if 35 hours was too little, you'd think DirecTV would have a larger drive. Who knows. I'd think not missing recordings would be much more important than a larger hard drive. :shrug:


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dbronstein _
> *Believe it or not, there are people who are satisfied with Dish and don't want to change to DirecTV just to get a PVR.
> 
> Dennis *


Nor should they. My parents have Dish and they love it. They just want the cheapest system since they don't watch TV. The person who started this thread asked about both the TiVo and the 721.


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## bunkers (Dec 16, 2002)

35 Hours isn't enough.

I personally like DISH better than DirecTV. I don't care for the DirecTV guide data -- nor the way the guide data is displayed on certain recievers. 

DirecTV is more easily and commonly hacked because of its older technology and probably will need to be replaced earlier, IMHO.

I find the DirecTIVO EPG to be annoyingly slow on the redraw when changing channels in the EPG and the font too small to read for folks with screens smaller than 30".

I also value the lower cost of DISH and the lack of PVR monthly charges. I also like not having to have the phone line connected.

Also, I don't see any deals for $50 TIVO(s) anymore, so its much more similar to a new-sub 721 purchase these days than it used to be.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Seeing that Dish has the best quality at 60 hours on a 508 and 90 hours on a 721 vs. 35 hours on a Tivo for the worst quality (only about 12 hours for best quality) that is a big difference but some can live with a lower amount of hours. Myself I need all the space I can get, 60+ hours would be the best bet for most I would think.

I wonder if they are going to start offering hard drives at cheaper prices instead of making them bigger and bigger and bigger since they do not need to be much bigger, and/or making them smaller and smaller so that the receiver size will also come down.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *Seeing that Dish has the best quality at 60 hours on a 508 and 90 hours on a 721 vs. 35 hours on a Tivo for the worst quality (only about 12 hours for best quality) that is a big difference but some can live with a lower amount of hours. *


Where did you come up with that? DirecTiVos have 35 hours of recording, period. You can't change it. Now SA TiVos have quality controls, but they go from 40 to 80 hours depending on the model bought.


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

The Directivo records just the same as the Dish PVR's - direct from the bitstream from satellite. There is no quality setting.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Ah, I did not know that, I have read on here that there were quality control settings on them, I never heard of this until now. I am not as familiar with the DirecTv product. I seen where people was saying that the most hours being the worst quality was a disadvantage but I suppose times have changed since Directv has them in a combo unit like Dish does. Seeing that it does the same as Dish, right from the bitstream, is there a difference in time because one stream is different than another causing one to take up more space on the hard drive? 

I suppose if someone had a standalone tivo one could try it on both services to see which one would take up more space on a hard drive, or is there that much difference?


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

They both use MPEG so I'd say there is almost no difference. The recording time probably has to do with how they regulate space on the HD.


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## Mark (Jan 14, 2003)

I currently have a 501 and have always been a big supporter of Dish, but why in the world would I pay that much money for dual tuner pvr (721). The Direct Tivo's will dual tuners are waaay cheaper...I know they have the Tivo charge but wouldn't it be worth it with a much better functionally ?? I am just curious and would like any feed back pro or con...

I am Glad I am not the ONLY one with this on there minds. It make no sense to me, the marketing is geared to get rid of you as a customer!! HUH??


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

And then if you get a higher package price you would not get charged anything extra for the tivo functionality.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2003)

does the 721 require two cards or one?


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Just one. 

Dennis


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## Wedgecon (Jul 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *Seeing that Dish has the best quality at 60 hours on a 508 and 90 hours on a 721 vs. 35 hours on a Tivo for the worst quality (only about 12 hours for best quality) that is a big difference but some can live with a lower amount of hours. Myself I need all the space I can get, 60+ hours would be the best bet for most I would think.
> 
> I wonder if they are going to start offering hard drives at cheaper prices instead of making them bigger and bigger and bigger since they do not need to be much bigger, and/or making them smaller and smaller so that the receiver size will also come down. *


Minor Clarification:

A DirectTivo like the DishPVR's only record at the "best" quality, as they just write the data stream off the satellite to the hard drive. A DirecTivo does not even have the ability to lower the quality as it lacks a MPEG encoder. Only the stand alone Tivo's give you the ability to select the recording quality.

After over three years with the Dishplayer I am now very happy with the DirecTivo. What makes the Tivo so nice is the software. DishPVR's are just VCR's that write to a hard drive. The Current DishPRV's will never have the functionally of a Tivo, lets face it Dish has not been able to even fix the bugs in their current products if they try to add Tivo like features they will just make them unusable.

If the timer/channel type recording is ok with you then you will be happy with a DishPVR. But do not buy a DishPVR hoping it will get more/better features via an upgrade because that day may never come.

If on the other hand you want a PVR that can:

Use Season Passes to always record a show even if the time slot changes.

Can tell the difference between first run and a repeat.

Is rock solid never needing to be powered off or have a special code input to reset it.

Can have more storage space added easily by the user.

Then a DirecTivo may be for you unless you do not like the programing or rates offered by DirecTV. This can be a problem for somebody who wants more than Total Choice Plus offers but does not want to spend $85.00 a month. DirecTV does not have anything to compare to the Dish AT150 Package. Dish network also offers the superstations which can give you more chances to record something on a UPN or WB station. Dual Tunner PVR's can make life without the superstations a lot easier.

As to the argument of cost, For me personally it worked out like this.

Dish:

$31.99 For AT 100
$ 8.99 For Locals/ Supers

Total $40.98

Now in June they were going to start charging me $9.99 a month for the Dishplayer PVR fee which would have raised my bill to $50.97. The best deal I was able to talk them into was $199.00 + Shipping and Handling for a 508 PVR.

For $209.99 (Including shipping and installation) I was able to purchase A Sony SAT-60 DirecTivo.

My current charges are now:

$39.99 For Total Choice Plus With Locals
$ 4.99 For Tivo PVR Fee

Total $44.98

While this is $4.00 more than what I was paying it is $5.00 less than what I would be paying come June so for me the cost of Dish vs Direct is kinda of a wash even with the TIVO fee.

As a final note I was able to sell my DishPlayer on ebay for $204.99. I learned from a thread at dbsforums.com that the rumor is that DishPlayers are somehow not affected by ECM's which makes them worth more than they should be. I feel kinda bad knowing most likely that my DishPlayer went to a hacker despite my canceling any bids for users who asked me about the smartcards and refusing to ship to Canada.  But I went back and forth in e-mails with Dish Customer service for over two weeks and just finally lost the will to stay with dish.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Wedgecon,

I understand your point of view but you went from a Dishplayer to a DirecTivo. The 501/508 and 721 have different software that you might have liked and do NOT have PVR fees. You never even gave them a chance so your switch to DirecTV is understandable but pre-mature. 

I was like you. All set to buy DirecTivo's but I hung on longer because I couldn't do without the superstations. Now I'm glad I stuck with Dish. The 721 is very nice receiver.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Yes, the 721 is set up with different software than the 501, 508 and it looks more like what the dishplayer uses only without all the bugs. If it does use something similar to dishplayer then why could they not write software from the 721 onto the dishplayer?


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2003)

I have four receivers in the house wired to a switch which is connected to two dishes on the roof that see three satellites. If I want to add a 721 what will I have to do?? add more dishes, a new switch?? as I understand it I have to run two rg6 lines to the 721 ? Correct? Help! Thanks in advance


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## Wedgecon (Jul 13, 2002)

Chris

I have a friend who has a 501 that I played with a lot, and it is OK, but I liked the Dishplayer better. The 501 was a lot like my old 3800 with a hard-drive. I have never gotten a chance to play with a 721 and it seems to be a lot like a Dishplayer with Dual Tuners but still seems to have its quirks. I hope that Dish is able to turn the the 721 into the product that the Dishplayer was always supposed to be. 

It basically boiled down to this:

1) I was not able to purchase a 501/508 for less than $199.00 unless I committed to AT150 for a year. As I have been a loyal customer for almost 5 years I felt I should not have to commit to $10.00 a month in additional programing costs to offset a $4.99 PVR Fee.

2) I could not buy a 721 for less than $500.00. The high cost really scared me because I still had a lingering fear it could still end up like the Dishplayer where the magic upgrade was always just over the horizon. Now a lot of this fear may not be rational but 3 years of the Dishplayer can do that to a person

3) During the long process of dealing with the Dish CSR's via e-mail I just got tired and decided that they just did not want me as a customer anymore. Maybe I just got lazy but I wanted a Dual Tuner PVR that I was certain i would like. At my programing level Dish vs Direct is a wash. 

In short I may have been very happy with a 721, but I wanted to go with what I felt at the time was a safer more stable route.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

You have to run two wires to the 721 just as if it is two receivers. The 721 is much better than the dishplayer in stability and features. In 4 years you would have made up for the price of the 721 in cost of the pvr features, not counting what you would get out of your dishplayer, in which by the time you would do that, it would only take you about 2 1/2 to 3 years. Not too bad.


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## riekl (Jan 21, 2003)

Oh well figure i'll jump in and add some meat for the wolves to chew on 

First off the new tivo's (HDVR2) are $199 at Tweeter anywhere in the country, and that INCLUDES for existing subs. So comparing apples to apples you are looking at $500 for dish existing $199 for DTV existing.

Yes .. there is a whopping $4.99 service fee .. lets see .. would i give up that service fee and give up season passes and wishlists? My god .. no !! My PVR would be useless without them. I depend on my DTivo to get my recordings regardless of if they've changed days or times. I have a wishlist setup to record every show with "pilot" or "premier" in it I also get first runs of new shows to see if i will like them ! To me the Dish unit is not a PVR it is a DVR nothing more.

And to give up parental controls ? How can Dish have a $500 box with no parental controls ?!! (and no we aren't talking about rating lock that is useless ! ) What else would I be giving up .. hrm Tivo's guide is awesome and perfectly designed for a PVR user, you select a channel and on the right hand side it shows you the next 10 things on that channel, this is invaluable ! One of my favorite things about the Tivo .. 

So anyway back to a bread and butter discussion since the only things the Dish people can harp on is monthly fee and storage .. I think I shot the monthly fee complaint in the foot above so lets take on the storage complaint.

You can add a 80GB HD giving you equiv storage for aprox $90 on todays market. So thats $199+$90 = 289, now 500 (dish price) - 289 (dtv price) = 211, divide that by 4.99 = 43 months to come out ahead. Thats nearly 4 years before you will be ahead ... for those 4 years your DTV counterpart will be enjoying the increased functionality of his/her unit that you aren't likely to see due to patent issues.

The Dish DVR is just a horrible value .. but even if it were equally priced .. it is still inferior without the season passes and wishlists you are missing out on what a PVR should be. I'm not going to get into the Dish VS DTV argument this is soley a comparison of their DVR vs PVR.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by riekl _
> *I'm not going to get into the Dish VS DTV argument this is soley a comparison of their DVR vs PVR. *


Unfortunately, you can't soley compare these types of PVR's on features alone because programming is part of the equation. What's the use in having an awesome PVR without the programming that is important to you. You make some valid arguments and there is no doubt that the Tivo PVR's are a better value with more features but you can't ignore the fact that Dish has programming (like the superstations) that DirecTV does not carry. I would love to own a DirecTivo or an HDVR2 but without the programming I'm looking for, they are worthless to me which is why I never switched. Now you can compare the features of regular Tivo units to other regular PVR's because those do not require a satellite hookup with specific programming.


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## riekl (Jan 21, 2003)

Chris,

... Ok if you wanted internationals I would agree with you but .. superstations ? Come on .. what is on a superstation that is not on your local UPN ? The superstations have become a joke, I doubt they will last very long they have no unique programing anymore .. 2-3 years ago they were great had lots of unique programing .. i miss dilbert .. but now ? Nothing is on them .. i'm surprised dish still carries the package.

But you are right programing is everything .. of course the 2 providers mirror 95% of their coverage .. the differences lie in sports (dtv) international (dish) hdtv (dish by 1 channel at this time), and some differences in locals coverage.



> _Originally posted by Chris Blount _
> *
> 
> Unfortunately, you can't soley compare these types of PVR's on features alone because programming is part of the equation. What's the use in having an awesome PVR without the programming that is important to you. You make some valid arguments and there is not doubt that the Tivo PVR's are a better value with more features but you can't ignore the fact that Dish has programming (like the superstations) that DirecTV does not carry. I would love to own a DirecTivo or an HDVR2 but without the programming I'm looking for, they are worthless to me which is why I never switched. Now you can compare the features of regular Tivo units to other regular PVR's because those do not require a satellite hookup with specific programming. *


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by riekl _
> *Chris,
> 
> ... Ok if you wanted internationals I would agree with you but .. superstations ? Come on .. what is on a superstation that is not on your local UPN ? The superstations have become a joke, I doubt they will last very long they have no unique programing anymore .. *


That is an opinion. There is nothing unique on them in your eyes. I find the KTLA morning news very unique that can't be found anywhere else in the country. Like I said before, it's what programming is important to you that drives your decisions. Nothing wrong with that.


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## greylar (Oct 31, 2002)

I really hate to jump into this fray, but I'm not sure where you guys are getting 4.99 service fee for Tivo. Do they have different prices for for different areas? I checked into it 3-4 months ago and It was going to be 13+ bucks. 

Greylar


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## riekl (Jan 21, 2003)

Greylar,

It was changed to $4.99 back in November, that is the cost for everyone, unless you have TC Premier in which case it is free.


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## EvanS (Mar 27, 2002)

greylar,
you would need to search more since I am NO D* expert...but I believe the pricing has changed.
It's $4.99 for DIRECTivo, unitl you get the Everything pak - then DIRECTivo is free. (emphasis on DIRECT)

I think, in any case, that stand alone Tivo is $10 0r $13 per month, regardless of programming

Evan


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2003)

Tivo is 12.95 per month for the standalone Tivo machine that hooks up to cable, E*, Direct, or OTA.

or 250.00 for the lifetime of the Tivo machine

fyi


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## riekl (Jan 21, 2003)

But no one here is talking about the standalone Tivo's .. they aren't comparable to what this thread is about.


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## Randy_B (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *
> I like the ability to watch what I want to rather than what Dish wants me to.
> *


Cool! What is the channel range for the supers on DirecTV. I am there.

No UPN in St Louis, so no Enterprise, no Buffy without WWOR or WSBK.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Which is why you should stay with Dish. I don't doubt that Supers are very important to those who watch UPN. I can safely say I have not watched anything on my Phoenix UPN other than Suns Basketball, EVER. NFL ST and MLB EI are important to me. I can't get SF Giants baseball on a superstation, but I can on MLB EI. Supers don't add anything to my watching of baseball or football. If cable had NFL ST, I would drop DirecTV in a second.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Dish with standalone Tivo may be the best choice for some.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2003)

Dish with standalone Tivo is no the answer. Major PITA! The Tivo is not meant for Dish and the picture quality is less through Tivo. I just returned Tivo and picked up a 721 and the 721 is ominus!!

Many thanks to folks that answered my questions about the 721, most helpful !!


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Thats odd, many people here on this board find the SA TiVo works fine for them. 

ominus? :eek2:


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

I used a SA ReplayTV with Dish for 2 years and aside from occasional problems with the IR Blaster dropping a digit on the channel, it worked great. I'm sure a SA Tivo would work just as well. But you can't use a SA unit with two tuners very easily.

Dennis


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2003)

SA Tivo and Dish

The IR blast issue was a problem - delay in telling tivo to blast dish box to change channel created a delay and missed digits which meant wrong channel.

The Tivo picture was not as good as the 721 

Having four others folks in the house trying to work Tivo vs the 721 remote which is just like the dish remote made it more fool proof

Tivo will work, just not foolproof.

still satisfied with 721


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