# Manual and DISH Timer Bug



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

I wish DISH would stop sending timers until after they send a fix for the obvious bug that was introduced in S515 which prevents executed manual and DISH timers from being deleted until after the Hopper is rebooted. Regardless of the workaround, the bug is a daily annoyance.

Can anyone tell me what the typical interval is between firmware updates and whether DISH has ever sent out interim fixes?


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Are you talking about timers or recordings?

I have never seen such a timer, but I see little recordings pushed out by Dish frequently and I have never had a problem deleting one of them - just deleted 2 about 5 minutes ago - did not have to reboot my Hopper (maybe the overnight restart took care of that) running S515 on Hopper 2.

Both showed as locked events, one was an ad for PPV sports, the other was a promo for the stupid Interview movie. Put in my pass code, the names of the recordings became visible, then I just deleted both.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Jim5506 said:


> Are you talking about timers or recordings?


What I am saying is, the DISH and Manual timers, these specific types of timers, will result in recorded events that can not be deleted until the Hopper has rebooted.



Jim5506 said:


> I have never seen such a timer, but I see little recordings pushed out by Dish frequently...


The "_little recordings pushed out by Dish_" started life as timers. If you happen to look in your Timer list beforehand, you will see the DISH timer and can delete the timer before it is executed. However, DISH does push the same timer multiple times. It is as if DISH does not trust their own equipment to create the timer the first go around. Or, maybe DISH is aware that subscribers delete those annoying timers and DISH wants to shove the recording down a subscriber's throat. Unless there is an emergency, there should be an opt-out.



Jim5506 said:


> ...and I have never had a problem deleting one of them - just deleted 2 about 5 minutes ago - did not have to reboot my Hopper (maybe the overnight restart took care of that) running S515 on Hopper 2.


Yes, the overnight took care of that, otherwise you would not have been able to delete those recorded events.



Jim5506 said:


> Both showed as locked events, one was an ad for PPV sports, the other was a promo for the stupid Interview movie. Put in my pass code, the names of the recordings became visible, then I just deleted both.


Both of my Hoppers had the same two recorded events. Because the ads were spaced apart, I had to reboot one Hopper twice to delete the recordings. On the other Hopper both ads were already recorded and required only one reboot.

As a test, try this. Create a Manual timer to record for 1 minute in the near-future. Even though it does not matter, set the Manual timer to record "Once". Pick any channel you want, that too does not matter. Monitor the recording by pressing the RED button in Live mode to go into the TV Activity screen. After the Hopper finishes recording, cancel out of the TV Activity screen and go into the DVR. Find whatever it was you recorded for 1 minute and try to delete the recording. You can not.

The reason why you can not delete the recording is because the Hopper thinks the recording is still in progress. If you monitored the recording as I suggested from the TV Activity screen, you know that is not true, as you watched the recording finish. The red LED on the front panel of the Hopper is not illuminated. Yet, there is a red dot still superimposed on the tile of the recorded event.

You could highlight the event tile and press "Select" on the remote to display the event sub-menu, but "Delete" will not be an option. You could watch the recording, but when playback ends the "Delete" option is not there. You can highlight the event tile and press the BLUE button, then select "Delete" from the drop-down menu -- but the Hopper will complain that you need to first stop the recording.

To delete the recording you will need to reboot the Hopper or wait until tomorrow.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I choose "wait until tomorrow". It looks like my copy of the commercial recorded about three minutes before the nightly reboot ... so tomorrow was 10 minutes.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Have a little patience and just delete it later.

You consented to receive their programming and this is one of their allowed operations - not a biggie.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

James Long said:


> I choose "wait until tomorrow". It looks like my copy of the commercial recorded about three minutes before the nightly reboot ... so tomorrow was 10 minutes.


Hehe, that was fortunate.

Since there is no option to adjust when the nightly reboot occurs, I created a Manual kludge timer to delay the nightly reboot. However, since Manual timers are partially broken and the kludge timer was becoming a constant reminder of the bug, I had to come up with a different way to delay the nightly reboot.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Jim5506 said:


> Have a little patience and just delete it later.


If you go back and read the first post in this thread, you will see that the bug was a _daily annoyance_. That is because it is not only DISH induced timers that can't be deleted without a reboot, it is *all* Manual timers. Hence the manual test I suggested. Speaking of which, have you tried the test I suggested?



Jim5506 said:


> You consented to receive their programming and this is one of their allowed operations - not a biggie.


Whether I consented or not is missing the point. It is technically feasible to have the option to opt-out. I find those ads, as well as the DISH employes singing, to be useless. It would be an option, so you could still receive them.

Back to the topic.

Can anyone tell me what the typical interval is between firmware updates and whether DISH has ever sent out interim fixes?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Blowgun said:


> Can anyone tell me what the typical interval is between firmware updates and whether DISH has ever sent out interim fixes?


Updates happen when they happen. Dish publishes no specific schedule. I would guess they are primarily driven by critical fixes and critical new features like most companies.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Having left the 508 for the Hopper w/Sling in late August of 2014, I hadn't experienced an update from DISH in many years. I wasn't sure where DISH fit in as some hardware companies have a quarterly schedule, some monthly.

Unfortunately, as much as things change, somethings stay the same. Evidently the Manual timer bug was introduced in at least November 2014 when the S512 firmware was released (which I never received, perhaps was pulled) and chose to not fix the bug for the S515 firmware. At that rate, it appears that Manual timers are going to continue to be partially broken for awhile.

As for my part, I chose to not be lackadaisical about the issue and reported the bug -- as I have with all bugs I have experienced (eg: priority screen crash, wrong local Network tile, audio dropouts, etc.). I hope others do as well to entice a speedy fix.

Thanks.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

How many people use manual timers? Understanding the answer to that question will help understand the priority level DISH should have in fixing the problem. I may (or may not) use one manual timer per year. It is a lot easier to use the guide and set a normal timer ("Record This" or "Record Series" in the guide).

I do not have an OTA module ... so I don't have channels without EPG that would need a manual timer. I'll risk a guess that there are a lot more subscribers like me that rarely if ever use a manual timer or have no need to do so.

That being said ... PLEASE keep reporting your bugs to DISH. They don't know about rare problems unless the people who are seeing them are reporting them.


As for the forced recordings ... I recall three this past month (DISHmas, UFC 182 and The Interview). At worst two nights in a row ... certainly not an every night occurrence. I can't remember what the last one was before DISHmas ... but these tiny recordings are not my pet peeve.


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## TheGrove (Jan 10, 2007)

James Long said:


> How many people use manual timers? Understanding the answer to that question will help understand the priority level DISH should have in fixing the problem. I may (or may not) use one manual timer per year. It is a lot easier to use the guide and set a normal timer ("Record This" or "Record Series" in the guide).
> 
> I do not have an OTA module ... so I don't have channels without EPG that would need a manual timer. I'll risk a guess that there are a lot more subscribers like me that rarely if ever use a manual timer or have no need to do so.


There probably are not many of us with manual timers. I have a weekly manual timer for my PBS station to record all of the shows from 7pm - 10pm on Saturday night. I usually start watching it about an hour after it starts which lets me skip the "commercials" between shows. Like the OP said, I you can't delete the recording until after a reboot.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

James Long said:


> How many people use manual timers? Understanding the answer to that question will help understand the priority level DISH should have in fixing the problem.


I agree, priority of the issue is important. What is also important is the difficulty of a fix for any given issue. It may turn out to be a simple fix, such as a bit-flip.



James Long said:


> I may (or may not) use one manual timer per year.


Up until this bug, I used a Manual timer Daily as it minimized the impact on the receiver.



James Long said:


> It is a lot easier to use the guide and set a normal timer ("Record This" or "Record Series" in the guide).


I always use "Record Series" even if I'm only recording the event once just to be able to set up the timer the way I want.



James Long said:


> I do not have an OTA module ... so I don't have channels without EPG that would need a manual timer. I'll risk a guess that there are a lot more subscribers like me that rarely if ever use a manual timer or have no need to do so.


You are likely correct with your guess.



James Long said:


> That being said ... PLEASE keep reporting your bugs to DISH. They don't know about rare problems unless the people who are seeing them are reporting them.


I will, even if I have to report the issue multiple times. Evidently, it's not enough to report an issue once (eg: HDMI Audio Dropouts).

Rare issues, if enough people report them, become common issues. 



James Long said:


> As for the forced recordings... ...but these tiny recordings are not my pet peeve.


What is your Hopper pet peeve?

I'll post mine in a separate reply for, perhaps, later recall.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

In no particular order, here are some of my Hopper pet peeves:
The bug that prevents the selected Guide List from sticking (recently introduced).
The partial crash of the receiver that causes a recording to get split because the receiver allowed you to dive too deeply into the menus, panels and screens.
The partial crash of the receiver that also splits recordings when clicking the "Move" buttons in the priority screen too quickly (although not an issue at any button speed when setting the priority in the Edit Timer panel).
The ability to use the Page Up/Down buttons or allow 'press and hold' to speed up priority changes in the Edit Timer panel.
Update free space more accurately and quickly (permanently deleting a recording should not increase percent full of hard drive).
Speaking of which, a so-called permanently deleted recording should not be accessible/playable through the recall button.
A better explanation of why a timer didn't fire on schedule or prematurely ended.
Better control of free tuners to prevent the cutting off of the beginning or end of a recording.
Ridiculous errors in the EPG (can't even properly keep track of episode numbers of current shows in first season).
Stopping playback of a recording doesn't return you to the title of the stopped recording.
The inaccurate playback progression gauge of a recorded events.
The horrible search feature, both in terms of function and return of search items.
Can't change the time of the nightly reboot (default is a horrible choice).
The Edit Timer panel no longer correctly displays the correct save folder (recently introduced).
Despite all the unused space in the header of a selected recorded event with multiple recordings in Title mode, doesn't display run-time of the recording without additional button pushing.
On Demand programming does not show the source of the On Demand programming (ie: HBO, Syfy, etc).
The option to display recorded events in List format.
The option to display search returns in List format.
More than 5 user defined folders.
Entering a channel manually in the guide doesn't display the entered channel if the channel entered is not in the currently displayed Guide List.
Entering a channel manually in the Browse (right button) doesn't display the entered channel if the channel is not in the current selected Guide List.
Default to Protect a recording when creating a timer.
Remember tiles associated with timers and with recorded events.
Banner does not display which guide list is currently selected.
The addition of a "Watch" button in the EPG Info screen when viewing information about current programming.
Remove the overlapping line from the program description after pressing Page Down in EPG Info screen.
Fully executed Manual timers can't be deleted without a reboot (recently introduced).


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Here's another one:
Bug in Daily Schedule causes multiple duplicates in long range scheduled events.


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## RASCAL01 (Aug 2, 2006)

I will test tonight, if it occures I will submit a report


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Here's two more:
Like most equipment on the planet, the ability to set up a static network to reduce DHCP requests.
The Watch button in the Deleted recordings Info screen serves no purpose and could be changed to Restore and/or Watch.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Additional Hopper bugs and feature requests:
When a channel moves in the EPG the receiver should auto update any existing timer.
When creating or modifying the favorite channel lists, the ability to set HD as preferred.
The ability to display a channel bio in the EPG in order to learn more about a particular channel.
When playback ends the Binge Watch pop-up should also include other episodes of the same show that doesn't have a series number.


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## kucharsk (Sep 20, 2006)

This would be a major pain for me, as I have a manual timer set up to record the KTLA Morning News from 6:57 AM to 10:02 AM Mountain every weekday on my 722 (the 9:00 hour is considered a separate program so it would be difficult to do with a single normal timer as I can tell the 722 to extend by an hour but not by 63 minutes…)


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

kucharsk said:


> This would be a major pain for me, as I have a manual timer set up to record the KTLA Morning News from 6:57 AM to 10:02 AM Mountain every weekday on my 722 (the 9:00 hour is considered a separate program so it would be difficult to do with a single normal timer as I can tell the 722 to extend by an hour but not by 63 minutes&#8230


The Hopper can be adjusted to End Late up to 90 minutes with a normal timer. But, I agree that there should be more flexibility for both Start Early and End Late, without having to resort to a manual timer. Currently the steps are not the same. Compare:

```
Start Early: 0, 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30 and 60 minutes.
   End Late: 0, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 15, 30, 45, 60 and 90 minutes.
```
To use your example, the ability to add 60 minutes and keep the 3 minute padding. I can't remember offhand, but I seem to remember seeing some panel where you could adjust in one minute steps. All you had to do is hold down the button on the remote and the UI would scroll through the minutes, but it only went up to 60 minutes. A simple increase would be all that's needed. Otherwise, it seems like an unnecessary limitation.

Adding to the Hopper bugs and feature requests:
The ability to adjust start and end padding with greater flexibility.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Adding to the Hopper bugs and feature requests:
Random bug that prevents a show from displaying a tile. Only happens with the EPG and recordings, not search.
When tuning to an OTA station, show the OTA signal strength.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I thought the OTA signal strength was shown on the Info popup?


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

That is correct, the signal strength is shown on the Info screen, but that is afterwards. I thought it would be nice to see the signal strength as you tune to the station. This would be particularly useful when the station is on the fringe of reception, because along with the orange error dialog popup, a signal banner would be shown.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Adding to the Hopper bugs and feature requests:

Backup option that saves a copy of the system settings in both the receiver and remote always fails.

Edit: According to others, automatic and manual backups work as expected.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

Blowgun said:


> Adding to the Hopper bugs and feature requests:
> 
> Backup option that saves a copy of the system settings in both the receiver and remote always fails.


I have never seen it fail on my Hopper. Are you using the system wizard? Setting are backed up automatically on the Hopper once per week. Try a red button reset and/or pull the plug.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

thomasjk said:


> I have never seen it fail on my Hopper. Are you using the system wizard?


Yes.



thomasjk said:


> Setting are backed up automatically on the Hopper once per week.


According to the System Wizard, the last time the backup was successful was 12/02/14 at 12:31 PM. Today
when I tried to manually do a backup it failed four different times, with one attempt having the remote
sitting on top of the receiver.

It may be a glitch in the way the progression gauge code is written, but the first time you enter the
System Wizard and start a backup, the progression gauge jumps to what looks like 40 percent. After a
moment or two the green bar turns red. Using the "Retry" button, the gauge only goes to 20 percent green,
then turns red a moment or two later. IOW, both attempts seem to fail at different stages and this is
consistent each time you enter the System Wizard.



thomasjk said:


> Try a red button reset and/or pull the plug.


I've pulled the plug at least a couple of times between December and now. I'll do it again, but I do not
believe it will make any difference. Never the less, thanks for the suggestion.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you checked to see if yours was able to do a manual backup?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

How are the batteries in your remote?

Also... could be a problem with the remote. Remotes have been known to fail, for various reasons. I have had to replace remotes a few times over the years for sticking buttons or once when a button fell off, possibly due to where I had dropped it onto a hard surface one time.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

Blowgun said:


> Yes.
> 
> According to the System Wizard, the last time the backup was successful was 12/02/14 at 12:31 PM. Today
> when I tried to manually do a backup it failed four different times, with one attempt having the remote
> ...


Today.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

It could be the remote as Stewart suggests or even the Hopper. What SW version do you have?


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

The firmware is S517 (latest).

I should have checked the other HWS beforehand, that one updates properly, both automatically and manually. I will update the post with a strike-through to retain the continuity in the thread.

What I am going to try is the other remote on this particular HWS and see if it is a remote issue. When I first had the HWS installed I disconnected the remote and had a heck of a time trying to get the remote reconnected. Hopefully it will go a little smoother by adding the other remote first.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

To pair the remote to the other Hopper press the Sat button.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

kucharsk said:


> This would be a major pain for me, as I have a manual timer set up to record the KTLA Morning News from 6:57 AM to 10:02 AM Mountain every weekday on my 722 (the 9:00 hour is considered a separate program so it would be difficult to do with a single normal timer as I can tell the 722 to extend by an hour but not by 63 minutes&#8230


Just set 2 daily (or M-F) timers, then you can have your 2 or 3 minutes. Have first timer set with no extension and the second with no early minutes to avoid using 2 tuners. How hard is that?


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## kucharsk (Sep 20, 2006)

patmurphey said:


> Just set 2 daily (or M-F) timers, then you can have your 2 or 3 minutes. Have first timer set with no extension and the second with no early minutes to avoid using 2 tuners. How hard is that?


It's a hassle I shouldn't have to deal with as I don't on my 722.

That and the unchangeable reboot time are the two major reasons I haven't switched as of yet.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

A one time setting, c'mon, and you would have 3(6) tuners.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Why do you need to set manual timers anyway? Is that feed off in timing or something?


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## kucharsk (Sep 20, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Why do you need to set manual timers anyway? Is that feed off in timing or something?


As I mentioned above, the 7:00 AM - 9:00 AM section is considered one program and the 9:00 AM - 10:00 AM portion its own program so it's easier to just set a manual time to record from 6:58 - 10:02 AM M-F.


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## kucharsk (Sep 20, 2006)

patmurphey said:


> A one time setting, c'mon, and you would have 3(6) tuners.


That still doesn't help with the unmodifiable reboot time.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Stewart Vernon said:


> How are the batteries in your remote?


The batteries are good. Also, I have replaced the batteries at least once since December (current backup date) with fresh batteries.



Stewart Vernon said:


> Also... could be a problem with the remote. Remotes have been known to fail, for various reasons. I have had to replace remotes a few times over the years for sticking buttons or once when a button fell off, possibly due to where I had dropped it onto a hard surface one time.


Looks like it's this remote. I checked the other Hopper and not only are automatic backups current, but manual backups work as well. With the exception of backups, this remote works fine.

The other Hopper has two remotes. I will swap this remote with one good remote on the other Hopper, this way each Hopper will have one fully functioning remote.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

kucharsk said:


> That still doesn't help with the unmodifiable reboot time.


Since manual timers do not work properly, go to one of the 9xx music channels and set a 1PM (8 hour) record timer. No more middle of the night reboot.

The Hopper can become unstable if it doesn't get it's reboot every 24 hours. So, don't forget to manually reboot the receiver through the settings options.


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## rootazoid (Feb 21, 2016)

I have one main and one minor problem with my Hopper 3. The main one, I just got on Dish back around April 1st, coming from DTV. Being semi-deaf, I need to watch most content with English *Closed Captions*. The CCs were fine from April 1 until August 1, when a system update (?) screwed them up for me. Symptoms: if a caption is at the screen top, now I only see the bottom half of the text; if a caption is at the screen left side, now the first letter and a half are cut off. I tried everything in the Hopper settings and the TV's own settings, spending maybe 5 hours on Dish phone support, also on Dish chat. They tried but couldn't help me. I thought it had to be my 2007 rear-projection TV having a problem with their update. Finally I got one rep who admitted I wasn't alone with this, that they have *"hundreds of customers in your area" (whatever that is) reporting the same problem*. So I don't think it's my TV any more. I wish I'd been told that sooner. He also said they'd identified the source of the CC problem and the fix would be released in November, now saying maybe October.

The minor one is the remote. I was surprised to see it wasn't the old "too complex" remote I expected. This one requires lots of button presses to get at certain things. Like CC on/off, and now that I need the Home Media button (what? where?) it's 4 presses deep. DOH! This remote is for the smartphone generation, who think a physical keyboard complicates the UI. :bang


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Rootazoid, you can order a 40 remote on the Dish website. It has all the buttons, and CC toggles on and of with the green button. Is your problem with CC location on your locals? You get exactly the same Eastern arc signal for "cable" channels that I do here in NJ, and I have no problem. The picture would have to zoomed quite a bit for any of the CC text to be off screen. I'll bet it's a setting problem, TV or Hopper, unless it's limited to your locals.


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