# I can't swap my HR10 for an HR20 :mad:



## skessel (Aug 11, 2006)

I was told by two different CSR's that I had to pay full price ($ 399) to swap my HR10 for an HR20.

Can it be because I got it a week ago with the "HD Tivo Blowout Special"?? I don't really see the point of keeping customers on the HR10, though...

I called both the regular 800 # and the Retention line, both CSR's said the same.

Can somebody offer an idea?

Thanks!


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

If you just got it a week ago that makes it a Leased unit. When I got my leased unit they assured me I would be getting the HR20 as an upgrade since they upgrade all their leased units. 

Part of the lease agreement is that you'll get the "latest and greatest" I believe.

Maybe this has changed since I got mine a month or so ago.


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## liltunanj (Aug 19, 2006)

Did you get the HR10 for free? Maybe that is why you were told that you will have to pay full price for the HR20. 

I got my hr10 about a month or so and paid $299 for it. So I hope I can "upgrade" for free.


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## skessel (Aug 11, 2006)

liltunanj said:


> Did you get the HR10 for free? Maybe that is why you were told that you will have to pay full price for the HR20.
> 
> I got my hr10 about a month or so and paid $299 for it. So I hope I can "upgrade" for free.


Yeah maybe that's it. However, I just talked to yet another CSR who said "The people at tivocommunity and dbstalk can't be right since no CSR here has the ability to credit $399 on equipment". Go figure.


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## skessel (Aug 11, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> If you just got it a week ago that makes it a Leased unit. When I got my leased unit they assured me I would be getting the HR20 as an upgrade since they upgrade all their leased units.
> 
> Part of the lease agreement is that you'll get the "latest and greatest" I believe.
> 
> Maybe this has changed since I got mine a month or so ago.


He did say "at this time we have no swap-out program", putting emphasis on "at this time" and telling me that maybe in the future they will.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Don't sweat it... You are using the superior product.


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## joekun (Aug 18, 2006)

> I just talked to yet another CSR who said "The people at tivocommunity and dbstalk can't be right since no CSR here has the ability to credit $399 on equipment". Go figure.


He may be right, this caused a problem for the CSR when I placed my order. Eventually they put it in as 3 payments, deleted the 2nd and 3rd ones and credited me $133 on my first bill.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Don't sweat it... You are using the superior product.


Thats your opinion, many people like the D* based boxes more some people like the Tivo based products more. The HR20 is the line that will get all the new channels and it will be the only one to get Sat based D* HD channels in the next year or so. While I agree that the Tivo boxes are great products saying it's superior is opinion.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Clint - darn right it's an opinion. I've been with D* since '96 (even used to have USSB), so I know what I need:
Dual Buffers
Wishlists
OTA
Suggestions
Pausing live TV, and having the DVR remember where I paused
etc.

WHY would D* regress the feature set?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Clint - darn right it's an opinion. I've been with D* since '96 (even used to have USSB), so I know what I need:
> Dual Buffers
> Wishlists
> OTA
> ...


So... if that is all you need... 
then you have what you need.

Why are you even worried about the HR20-700...
Or is there something that your TiVo can't do for you?


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## gregftlaud (Nov 20, 2005)

399 for a leased piece of equipement. ridiculous. dtv is a piece of work. i bet not even comcrap would lease out their hd dvr for that ridiculous amount of money. hmm...i might have to be giving them a call if and when the new hd dvr comes out in my area if dtv pulls the same crap on this 7yr subscriber that paid 1000 bucks for his hd tivo!


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Dual Buffers I agree would be great.

Wishlist well its almost obtainable but could def be made better.

OTA is coming

I hate suggestions (opinion again) 

Don't get me wrong I understand where you're coming from I don't consider some of these things regression, then again there are plenty of things I would like ot see added and on my SA tivos there are many things I go WHY are you wasting time with this and not adding better DVR functions.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gregftlaud said:


> 399 for a leased piece of equipement. ridiculous. dtv is a piece of work. i bet not even comcrap would lease out their hd dvr for that ridiculous amount of money. hmm...i might have to be giving them a call if and when the new hd dvr comes out in my area if dtv pulls the same crap on this 7yr subscriber that paid 1000 bucks for his hd tivo!


Probably not... but that is the same Comcast that forced consumers of their Analog package to the higher cost Digital Packages (that included rental fees for the boxes), when they moved most of the most popular channels to the digital band.

The same Comcast (and Cable-Co's) that are fighting tooth and nail to eliminate CableCards (which is a concept that is so far over due), because they will lose money on it.

The same Comcast that keeps their Broadband rates seriously high, and won't lower them... especially when they know consumers don't have any other choice them them...

So... sell your HR10-250....
Sell all your other DirecTV equipment... and switch.

DirecTV doesn't want to lose customers... but you know what..... I bet if went over to a Cable-Co support forum, you find another person saying they are going to leave Cable-Co for SAT... and once FIOS get's more popular, you find the same there..

There is and never will be a PERFECT provider for EVERY single person out there. Ever..


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Probably not... but that is the same Comcast that forced consumers of their Analog package to the higher cost Digital Packages (that included rental fees for the boxes), when they moved most of the most popular channels to the digital band.
> 
> The same Comcast (and Cable-Co's) that are fighting tooth and nail to eliminate CableCards (which is a concept that is so far over due), because they will lose money on it.
> 
> ...


I agree...there is nothing perfect for EVERY single person...but I'm always looking for the best "perfect" for me...I think it is important however, to give this time until it is available to everyone and then see what the price trends are...I just don't think it's fair for one person to get the unit for free and someone else has to pay $399 (all other things being equal)...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

skessel said:


> I was told by two different CSR's that I had to pay full price ($ 399) to swap my HR10 for an HR20.
> 
> Can it be because I got it a week ago with the "HD Tivo Blowout Special"?? I don't really see the point of keeping customers on the HR10, though...
> 
> ...


What did you pay for the unit?

The HR10-250 is nearly 3 years old....
Blowout... Closeout... what ever you want to call it.

You got the unit significantly lower then someone did 3 years ago.

If you purchased PS2 today... would you be clamering in November (or when ever) that Sony should upgrade you for free to the PS3?
If you purchased a DVD player last holiday season, should you now get an HD-DVD player as a swap out?

If you purchased a 2006 Model car today... on a closeout/blowout sale... should you get the 2007 Model when it comes out next week?

If you can get it swapped out... great... but if you found out about the blowout/closeout... then you where probably on the Internet and forums like this.... and it was no mystery that the HR20-700 was comming out this month... (even though there where plenty of people who didn't think it would)..

Even if it wasn't release in Mid-August... it was known it ws comming out.

So should DirecTV replace eveyrone's equipment for no cost... for ever?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

pdawg17 said:


> I just don't think it's fair for one person to get the unit for free and someone else has to pay $399 (all other things being equal)...


I can't agree with you more.
A price should be set... and that is it......


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## gregftlaud (Nov 20, 2005)

ok, good news for me and all of you. keep calling customer retention until u get the right person.

even though the hr20 dvr isnt available in my area yet......this nice and knowledgeable customer retention person named david told me that he would note in my account that when i do upgrade.....all equipment, including the hr20 dvr would be given to me for free. he also said that i would not have to swapout my hr10 250. that i could keep it since i owned it already and paid so much for it. he told me that he had already done the free upgrade thing for several good customers in the LA market and that swapouts of owned equipment is not necessary to get the hr20. i called the direct number to the cr department. i hope when u guys call in u get this same guy i didnt even have to argue or debate with him.

so now when i decide to upgrade i wont have to call in 20 times to get what i want!

and in terms Earl saying nothing being perfect for every person. well...i've been a dtv customer for 7 yrs and have always shelled out big bucks to get all the new equipment when it first comes out. so yah..when dtv deals with me i expect them to be perfect and treat me with perfect respect like this customer retention guy did. if that guy can do it then dtv needs to make sure all of their csr's do the same. i dont care how much they make or how many rude customers they have to deal with they took the job so they should do it. that is what is wrong with today's society. people take jobs that they think dont pay them enough so they think they can slack off..... then they dont do their job correctly and they piss off customers. that is not how one moves up in this world. dtv really needs to educate their reps on how to treat us so called A list customers.


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## skessel (Aug 11, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So... if that is all you need...
> then you have what you need.
> 
> Why are you even worried about the HR20-700...
> Or is there something that your TiVo can't do for you?


Nah, I just want the "latest-and-greatest"... and I'm not too happy that I can't get it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

skessel said:


> Nah, I just want the "latest-and-greatest"... and I'm not too happy that I can't get it.


 I suffer from that same bug...


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can't agree with you more.
> A price should be set... and that is it......


So what do your contacts at D* say about this? I would think upper managment has to know about CSR roulette. But maybe its cheaper to give into those who [email protected]#$% and complain and screw everyone else than to have one set price.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> So what do your contacts at D* say about this? I would think upper managment has to know about CSR roulette. But maybe its cheaper to give into those who [email protected]#$% and complain and screw everyone else than to have one set price.


My contacts are more on the tech side... they do communicate with the other parts... but they pretty much are just responsible for the hardware and technical sides of things.

The $$$ and consumer relations... not their area's... but some of the messages have made it back to them...


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So should DirecTV replace eveyrone's equipment for no cost... for ever?


*Yes*, but that's a whole different argument! :lol:


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## jacksonkev (Aug 22, 2006)

i've been hiding in a cave watching SD tivo dtv for years. i recently bought an hd tv. i just spent the better part of the last 72 hours reading postings on this site catching up on about a decade worth of tv evolution. my head hurts.

anyway, i guess i lose my 'i'll drop nfl st' leverage as soon as the nfl games start on september 10th. i now need to decide between the HR10 or HR20...

it's kind of like being frozen in ice for 100 years then thawing out in line at an In-N-Out burger and only having 30 seconds to figure out what to order... 

i'll take all the opinions that you can dish out. no pun intended.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

For a new DVR user, I think the HR20 is a no-brainer. Since you've never used a Tivo, you definitely won't miss any of the features that the HR20 doesn't have. Besides, the HR20 is the future, while the HR10 is obsolete. There really isn't much of a decision for you here, just get the HR20.


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## jacksonkev (Aug 22, 2006)

i actually have been using tivo w/dvr. just not with hd service. but i do see your point.

my question is...you say the HR20 is the future but what i'm wondering is how far in the future? when does the intro of MPEG4 really take affect? and won't dtv be forced to upgrade hd subs then? besides, i can easily get OTA locals in hd now. so, that being said couldn't it make sence to get the HR10 w/tivo then get the 6.3 software update and upgrade to HR20 or whatever future box (tivo3) later. or does the HR10 suck that bad? uh oh...i've read too much. i have too many questions.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

> Besides, the HR20 is the future, while the HR10 is obsolete.


The HR10 is not now, nor will it ever be, obsolete. You will always be able to receive OTA HD broadcasts with it, assuming you currently have that capability now. It will also be able to receive DTV mpeg2 channels for as long as DTV keeps transmitting them, which should be for many, many years to come. The only thing it won't be able to do is receive any of the new mpeg4 channels.

Many of us that have owned DTivos and HDTivos see the HR20 as a giant step backwards. If it is the future then it could be a dismal one by comparison. I have not used the HR20 nor have I been following the threads that discuss the features in detail. I just know that it won't do the things that a Tivo does better than any other DVR on the market (i.e., season passes). It may have a similar feature that works well to some degree but they're going to have to go a long way before the software reaches the same maturity as a Tivo's. I'm actually hoping the HR20 works out because DTV will be royally screwing its customers if it doesn't.


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## dan8379 (Feb 13, 2006)

liltunanj said:


> Did you get the HR10 for free? Maybe that is why you were told that you will have to pay full price for the HR20.
> 
> I got my hr10 about a month or so and paid $299 for it. So I hope I can "upgrade" for free.


I received my HR10-250 for free about 5 or 6 weeks ago, and when I called retention last week they noted on my account that I would be able to upgrade to the HR20 when available in my area for just the cost of shipping. I already have the 5 LNB dish, so I would only need the receiver. It's been noted that perhaps your account standing, average bill, etc can play into how generous they are with these offers.


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

dan8379 said:


> I received my HR10-250 for free about 5 or 6 weeks ago, and when I called retention last week they noted on my account that I would be able to upgrade to the HR20 when available in my area for just the cost of shipping. I already have the 5 LNB dish, so I would only need the receiver. It's been noted that perhaps your account standing, average bill, etc can play into how generous they are with these offers.


To me there is just too much variability on price...one person bought an HR10 3 years ago and paid $1000 and someone else can get an HR10 weeks ago for free and get a free "upgrade" to the HR20...I'm happy for you though - I really am...


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## skessel (Aug 11, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What did you pay for the unit?
> 
> The HR10-250 is nearly 3 years old....
> Blowout... Closeout... what ever you want to call it.
> ...


Earl, all your points are good, I wasn't bashing D*. I think the service is great, but I do think that if they lease equipment they should try and keep you up to date as much as they can.

Having said that, my HR10 is a very fine piece of equipment, and doesn't have any bugs that prevent me from using it normally or hinder my viewing experience therefore no real reason for me to want to upgrade more than me wanting "the latest". I know that eventually prices will go down and I'll get my HR20, so it's all good.


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## skessel (Aug 11, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I suffer from that same bug...


In my case, "once a geek, always a geek", no many how many years (or children) I have.


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## mjones73 (Jun 20, 2006)

captain_video said:


> The HR10 is not now, nor will it ever be, obsolete. You will always be able to receive OTA HD broadcasts with it, assuming you currently have that capability now. It will also be able to receive DTV mpeg2 channels for as long as DTV keeps transmitting them, which should be for many, many years to come. The only thing it won't be able to do is receive any of the new mpeg4 channels.


There is one thing that could kill it but it won't be for a few years at least based on the latest contract signed, Directv ending their contract with Tivo and no longer providing guide info for it.... In the mean time, mine is working fine, the only allure at this point for me upgrading to MPEG4 hardware is getting my RSN. With the O's sucking so bad as usual, I'm not in any hurry.


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What did you pay for the unit?
> 
> The HR10-250 is nearly 3 years old....
> Blowout... Closeout... what ever you want to call it.
> ...


This is getting good. Going to get some popcorn....brb:eek2:


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## jacksonkev (Aug 22, 2006)

mjones73 said:


> In the mean time, mine is working fine, the only allure at this point for me upgrading to MPEG4 hardware is getting my RSN. With the O's sucking so bad as usual, I'm not in any hurry.


Sorry about your Orioles...will RSN be available in HD as soon as you udgrade to your HR20 or will you have to wait until they switch sending the signal in 
MPEG4? r you in the baltimore area?


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## NurseDave (Aug 20, 2006)

jacksonkev said:


> i've been hiding in a cave watching SD tivo dtv for years. i recently bought an hd tv. i just spent the better part of the last 72 hours reading postings on this site catching up on about a decade worth of tv evolution. my head hurts.
> 
> anyway, i guess i lose my 'i'll drop nfl st' leverage as soon as the nfl games start on september 10th. i now need to decide between the HR10 or HR20...
> 
> ...


I'm there too. Trying to decide to stay with D* waiting for the HR20 to come out and just not watch HD until then and hope that D* will add a bunch of HD channels next year. Or switch to E* get HD mpeg4 right now, get more channels and hope that D* doesn't blow past them in the number of HD channels offered.


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## mjones73 (Jun 20, 2006)

jacksonkev said:


> Sorry about your Orioles...will RSN be available in HD as soon as you udgrade to your HR20 or will you have to wait until they switch sending the signal in
> MPEG4? r you in the baltimore area?


Comcast Sportsnet is already available in HD in my DMA, just need the new hardware, I have an HR10-250 and an HTL-HD to swap out, figured I'd get them both done at the same time once the DVR was out awhile.


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

pdawg17 said:


> To me there is just too much variability on price...one person bought an HR10 3 years ago and paid $1000 and someone else can get an HR10 weeks ago for free and get a free "upgrade" to the HR20...I'm happy for you though - I really am...


I know what you mean, i bought a laptop 3 years ago for $1600. last week, my wife got one for half that price but double the memory, speed and also can burn DVDs..it's just not fair.

[sarcasm off]

What is not fair is the inconsistency in price paid by two customers today from the same company.

As a guy who used to manage a call center, I can't stand the idea of CSR roulette..


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## adam1115 (Dec 16, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What did you pay for the unit?
> 
> The HR10-250 is nearly 3 years old....
> Blowout... Closeout... what ever you want to call it.
> ...





Earl Bonovich said:


> I can't agree with you more.
> A price should be set... and that is it......


Uhm, no, that's completely wrong.

DirecTV was PROMISING free upgrades to the HR20 when selling HR10's for a long time. (They promised me, in fact, that I would get a FREE UPGRADE, when I asked if they box was being phased out. She swore, it's official, we will upgrade it for free.)

They promised this to people because they KNEW people wouldn't spend $300-$600 on an HD-DVR that they couldn't use for new programming a few months later.

Based on THAT, they ABSOLUTELY should upgrade our DVR's for free.

If they said, no, it is what it is, we may come out with a new model, suck it up butter cup, you'll have to pay, I'd be fine. Three different retention reps swore that the upgrade would be free. I have their names and dates I spoke with them.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

adam1115 said:


> Uhm, no, that's completely wrong.
> 
> DirecTV was PROMISING free upgrades to the HR20 when selling HR10's for a long time. (They promised me, in fact, that I would get a FREE UPGRADE, when I asked if they box was being phased out. She swore, it's official, we will upgrade it for free.)
> 
> ...


YOUR situation is not the same as the OP's (the OP didn't indicate if they where promised a free upgrade).

If you where told you where going to get a free upgrade, then yes... they should honor it.

If you where told you where going to get $X off the unit, then yess... they should honor that...

Outside of having some previous aggreement... then the fee shoudl be the same.
You shouldn't be able to call and pitch a *****, and get 6 months of that free, 4 months of this, $5 a month off that... and end up with the unit for $Y

That is what irritates the heck out of me.... I don't mind getting stuff for low cost... but If you call and get xyz deal... I should be able to call and get the same xyz deal.


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

mikewolf13 said:


> I know what you mean, i bought a laptop 3 years ago for $1600. last week, my wife got one for half that price but double the memory, speed and also can burn DVDs..it's just not fair.
> 
> [sarcasm off]
> 
> ...


All I meant by my statement is that some people paid $1000 and now have to pay $250-400 for a LEASED box while others that recently got a LEASED HR10 for free get the HR20 for free as well...totally back asswards...


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## plehrack (Aug 21, 2006)

I went with the best of both worlds. I have an HR10-250 and an HR20-700 hooked up to my HDTV. I really wanted the HR20 in order to watch the Dodgers in HD for the home stretch, too bad I found out that only a dozen of the remaining games will be carried in HD.

I called DTV and spoke with 3 people who told me that the best deal I could get was $100 off on the HR20. I finally got a manager on the line and rationally explained why I felt like I should have the unit for free. Eventually, she agreed and gave me the unit, the dish, the switch and $10 off for 6 months. I can confirm that non-managers cannot put this deal through, she had to go back to her computer in order to do the deal.

If your value to DTV significantly outweighs the units cost, they will give you the unit (either that or she was tired of talking to me for 2 hours and wanted me off of the phone). I pay them $140-$170 a month (based on how many UFC's and Pride Events there are) and have been doing so for 7 years. I am on their 'best customer' list and have been treated as such.

Peter Lehrack

PS The HR20 sucks compared to the HR10-250, I am looking for someplace to report problems with the unit to, DTV has no idea. Any thoughts?


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> YOUR situation is not the same as the OP's (the OP didn't indicate if they where promised a free upgrade).
> 
> If you where told you where going to get a free upgrade, then yes... they should honor it.
> 
> ...


In the end, if it cost say $200 for everyone, I think I'd be fine with it because I hate wondering if I could get a better deal on this or a better deal on that...


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

Note this article written after the 2006 CES:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224p1.html

Highlights:

Directv Reps said the upgrade for HR10 owners would be FREE as the machine became available in your time zone. (also said "Really! 2Q 2006!"..but hey not bad)

I believe similar statemnts were made elsewhere...I would definately refer to these statements and say you relied on these statements when you made your decision to purchase the HR10.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

plehrack said:


> PS The HR20 sucks compared to the HR10-250, I am looking for someplace to report problems with the unit to, DTV has no idea. Any thoughts?


Sure... post them here in this forum (in a new thread)... DirecTV does read the posts here.


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## jeffstra (Jun 23, 2006)

pdawg17 said:


> All I meant by my statement is that some people paid $1000 and now have to pay $250-400 for a LEASED box while others that recently got a LEASED HR10 for free get the HR20 for free as well...totally back asswards...


I also paid $1000 for the new HD Tivo. This was only, what, 1 1/2 or 2 years ago and the box works fine. There was no mention at that time that they were going to make the box obsolete or incompatible with a majority of their future HD broadcasts. DirecTv, at the time of the Mpeg4 announcement, said that the transition plans had not been finalized but that current HR10 owners would be quite pleased with their final transition plans. Well, if I have to pay whatever everyone else is paying that didn't spend $1000 for an HR-10 I will not be pleased. All this said I live in LA area but have not contacted D* to swap. I don't want that big ugly dish until I have to.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:



> Probably not... but that is the same Comcast that forced consumers of their Analog package to the higher cost Digital Packages (that included rental fees for the boxes), when they moved most of the most popular channels to the digital band.
> 
> The same Comcast (and Cable-Co's) that are fighting tooth and nail to eliminate CableCards (which is a concept that is so far over due), because they will lose money on it.
> 
> ...


Sounds like Earl has been drinking the D* Kool-Aid. I think everyones point is, if they are going to make me switch to a new box at least include at the minimum the same features. And if you can't, why did you switch in the first place. D* didn't switch to NDS boxes to improve a product, they did it because it makes them more money, all under the vail of improved product. They could have done all the same upgrades to the sat system with a TiVo box. Instead they wrapped a steamer in some aluminum and called it the R-15.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> YOUR situation is not the same as the OP's (the OP didn't indicate if they where promised a free upgrade).
> 
> If you where told you where going to get a free upgrade, then yes... they should honor it.
> 
> ...


Earl, how much did you spend for your HR20? Was it given to you as a part the deal you have going? If both are yes, then, in my opinion I don't think you have any reason for the above post. If no, sorry.


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## jeffster (Nov 3, 2005)

cdavis said:


> Sounds like Earl has been drinking the D* Kool-Aid. I think everyones point is, if they are going to make me switch to a new box at least include at the minimum the same features. And if you can't, why did you switch in the first place. D* didn't switch to NDS boxes to improve a product, they did it because it makes them more money, all under the vail of improved product. They could have done all the same upgrades to the sat system with a TiVo box. Instead they wrapped a steamer in some aluminum and called it the R-15.


The deal D* had with Tivo wasn't to their liking, so they made a new deal. Every company has this right when contracts (and regulations) permit it.

It's naive to assume that a change in relationship like this is always going to produce superset features, especially when shifting platforms, but it does sound to me like D* is working harder to rev the HR20 feature set faster (and fix bugs, natch) than they did through Tivo with the H10-250, and I hope that is a good sign of things to come.

I am hoping to get one swapped out for free(ish) for one of my 10-250s so I can compare the 2 units and draw my own conclusions. Clearly, the HR20 and its successors are the wave of the future, but I don't see any compelling reason to jump with both feet right now (except my bleeding edge itch, that is).


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## jeffster (Nov 3, 2005)

cdavis said:


> Earl, how much did you spend for your HR20? Was it given to you as a part the deal you have going? If both are yes, then, in my opinion I don't think you have any reason for the above post. If no, sorry.


The deal someone else got is not relevant to Earl's point. Whether or not you agree with it, you have to look at it as a statement of principled opinion.


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## JoeSchueller (Aug 17, 2006)

cdavis said:


> Sounds like Earl has been drinking the D* Kool-Aid. I think everyones point is, if they are going to make me switch to a new box at least include at the minimum the same features. And if you can't, why did you switch in the first place. D* didn't switch to NDS boxes to improve a product, they did it because it makes them more money, all under the vail of improved product. They could have done all the same upgrades to the sat system with a TiVo box. Instead they wrapped a steamer in some aluminum and called it the R-15.





captain_video said:


> The HR10 is not now, nor will it ever be, obsolete. You will always be able to receive OTA HD broadcasts with it, assuming you currently have that capability now. It will also be able to receive DTV mpeg2 channels for as long as DTV keeps transmitting them, which should be for many, many years to come. The only thing it won't be able to do is receive any of the new mpeg4 channels.
> 
> Many of us that have owned DTivos and HDTivos see the HR20 as a giant step backward. If it is the future then it could be a dismal one by comparison. I have not used the HR20 nor have I been following the threads that discuss the features in detail. I just know that it won't do the things that a Tivo does better than any other DVR on the market (i.e., season passes). It may have a similar feature that works well to some degree but they're going to have to go a long way before the software reaches the same maturity as a Tivo's. I'm actually hoping the HR20 works out because DTV will be royally screwing its customers if it doesn't.


Thank you for your opinions. Feel free to check in to FIOS or Cable options available to you. There are *many* D* customers who find the HR20 a significant step forward from the TiVo product we've been "forced" to use.

Since opinions are being stated as facts, I'll say that the HR20 clearly obsoletes the HR10. The HR10 lacks CallerID, PIG, native resolution support, interactive content support, a SATA port, plans for DirecTV ToGo, MPEG4 support, RF remotes, multiple active outputs, etc. The HR20 lacks the bloated and slow interface with the misguided suggestions and "thumbs" features and wishlists. For the average person who just wants to watch the shows they want to watch, the HR20 is superior.

This is my *opinion* so I will remain a happy D* customer the minute I can get my hands on one (and OTA is enabled with a slimline dish). In fact, I'll gladly sell you my obsolete HR10 when I do.

It is sad to see the volumes of trolling TiVo apologists and zealots who try to take these threads off course. If you are so upset with D* for leveraging a business model that makes sense for them, don't support it, find another option. At a minimum, go start a "Why this thing sucks compared to my beloved HR10" thread so we can stay on topic.

Back to the original topic: I'd love to see D* come out with some hard and fast rules around swapouts. My guess is that ever house they put this in has the potential to become a loyal and valuable customer, so I have to imagine that with any 2 year stint, they'll give one to you. They could put a lot of minds at rest by acknowledging that it coming, their timeline for rollout and swapout policies.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

First off, I love my D*. I don't want to give it up. In my opinion, it is far superior too any other tv content provider I have had. Now, maybe I am naive. Maybe I am naive to believe that when someone puts out a new product it should work. When D*TiVo came out, was there talk of bugs and deficiencies in it. If so then maybe I am naive. But I am not going to blindly ignore all the features of TiVo that many have come to love, and speak of how great it is to have Caller ID. Yeah I have that in my phone too, who cares. It's a tv box, if you are to lazy to get up or turn to your left to see who is calling, ahh. Who cares about PIG, hit pause, it's nice but so what. I agree Directv to go is nice, but D* could have offered that with the tivo, but decided not to. MPEG4 support is the only reason for this depate. If D*tivo did it, would everyone still want to switch. If the answer to that is yes, have both options and then you can say "See HR20 is what people want."


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## JoeSchueller (Aug 17, 2006)

How could D* have offered that with TiVo? Neither side had anything to gain from that relationship, it wasn't profitable for either. It strictly was awareness building for both, and unfortunately, neither felt the investment in improving the initial offering was worth it.

Why is your interest in wishlists and suggestions is somehow more noble than my desire to have native resolution (my personal favorite for PQ) and a box with decent performance? CallerID is a nice to have. Personally, I don't feel the least bit lazy not wanting to get up from my family room to my kitchen to answer a telemarketing call while I'm relaxing and watching TV. If you do, that's your opinion and you can discount that feature. Sounds convienent to me. 

I'm trying to understand why wanting to see who's calling is lazy, but having some software program fill a HDD with programming I'm not sure I want to watch and will never have time to watch, is somehow noble. I'm not so lazy that I spend all my time watching TV, so when I do, I want to watch what I want to watch.

Stumping over D* not providing you a superset of the original features is completely unrealistic. Much like when the PC manufacturers decided to stop putting floppy drives on PC's. It wasn't because they hated floppies, it was that it didn't make business sense to continue perpetuating that "feature." The features D* decided to drop were ones that either the TiVo licensing arrangement would be too expensive to add or they felt consumers just didn't want. This wasn't a "screw the TiVo lover" decision, it was a "make shareholders money" decision.

To answer your question, yes, if the HR10 could support MPEG4, I would switch to the HR20 in a heartbeat. The performance alone would sway me. Throw in native, PIG, CallerID and I might even pay to upgrade (but I'd prefer not to).


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

Do you even have TiVo? Standalone TiVo has TiVo desktop and TiVO2Go. I have been using it on my standalone for some time. D* made a decision to not utilize that functionality. Second, don't assume I want suggestions or wishlist, I don't use either. I want dual live buffers, autocorrection (or similar), and NO BUGS. Third, get a cordless phone and on D* DVR ID has/had a bug so I hated it. It was also massive and covered to much of the screen (opinion). So, by your theory it is ok for your new car to discontinue brakes as long as it goes faster. What are you talking about when you say this

*Stumping over D* not providing you a superset of the original features is completely unrealistic. Much like when the PC manufacturers decided to stop putting floppy drives on PC's. It wasn't because they hated floppies, it was that it didn't make business sense to continue perpetuating that "feature." The features D* decided to drop were ones that either the TiVo licensing arrangement would be too expensive to add or they felt consumers just didn't want. This wasn't a "screw the TiVo lover" decision, it was a "make shareholders money" decision.*

Are you saying that this was all about money for D*, if so thanks you made my point.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

Now, that I have said that. I want the new D* DVR to be good. I would love to enhance my viewing pleasure. At this point in time, I don't see it as an enhancement, in my opinion. Locals are just being pushed where I live and my opinion may change shortly, but if I *HAVE* to switch, I want the product to be an improvement.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

cdavis said:


> Standalone TiVo has TiVo desktop and TiVO2Go. I have been using it on my standalone for some time. D* made a decision to not utilize that functionality.


Actually, it has been rumored here that it was actually Tivo's decision to withhold those features from the DirecTV DVRs, to give the standalones a bullet point for marketing.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

I have always seen the opposite, but if that is the case... chalk that up to a plus for the D* DVR's. However, that feature is not working at this point. Untill I see the feature, I will remain a skeptic.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

I have a question, did D* ever consider purchasing TiVo?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

cdavis said:


> I have a question, did D* ever consider purchasing TiVo?


Not publically, but I guarantee you that the idea was discussed by DirecTV executives.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

cdavis said:


> I have a question, did D* ever consider purchasing TiVo?


OT, but what surprises me is that Dish didn't purchase Replay. They did have a sizeable stake in that company at one time.


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## dogger01 (May 24, 2004)

I was one of the people that got the Hr10 for free. It took me many calls to get it and when I finally agreed to pay for it, the rep gave it to me for free. When the new HR20 is available then I hope I get upgraded for free and if I don't then I will just use the HR10. But once they convert all the HD channels to mpeg 4 then I would hope they would upgrade me for free. Why should anyone be penalized from getting the HD channel because the equipment is outdated. Technically this is a breach of contract because I am leasing the equipment that is not providing me witht he service that I subscribe too. I pay $10.99 extra a month for their HD service that I won't be getting and if I downgrade my programing eliminating the HD package I will get charged.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

dogger01 said:


> Technically this is a breach of contract because I am leasing the equipment that is not providing me witht he service that I subscribe too. I pay $10.99 extra a month for their HD service that I won't be getting and if I downgrade my programing eliminating the HD package I will get charged.


If you're under contract to keep the HD package, it's probably not longer than 6 months. Within that time frame, I don't see DirecTV moving the current HD channels to MPEG4. If for some reason they do, and you're still stuck with the HD package, I can assure you that they wouldn't give you any trouble if you decided to drop it.

Oh, and just FYI, the HD package is $9.99/month, not $10.99.


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## JoeSchueller (Aug 17, 2006)

cdavis said:


> Are you saying that this was all about money for D*, if so thanks you made my point.


Correct. As a shareholder, I say thank you to D*.

The brake analogy is bunk. Cupholders are more analogous - optional to the core purpose of the device. If the manufacturer creates a car that is more efficient, performs better, and happens to leave off the cupholder, you can keep your old car with the cupholders, or buy the new one - your choice.

Please don't tell me about desktop and TiVo to go,l because D* and TiVo couldn't get a business model together that got those features out to D* subscribers. That could have been D*'s doing or TiVo's. We'll never know. The bottom line is that it never happened.

I have a T60 that I loved and a HR10 that I despise. It has plenty of bugs. It runs way too hot, the HDMI port occasionally loses sync with my TV, it has spontaneously rebooted several times, has a poor ATSC tuner, experiences "hitches" in audio/video on the MPEG-2 HD stations, and is the most painfully slow CE device I've ever owned. On what basis are you calling the HR20 buggy, do you have one? A bug is a designed feature that doesn't operate reliably or as expected, not a feature that was never designed in.

I completely agree: dual buffers and auto-correct would be fabulous, although recording both programs you want to buffer and coming out of ff with the replay button seem to be serviceable workarounds. Certainly no worse than me picking up (another) cordless phone 

The good news should be that you never *have* to get an HR20. Perhaps the S3 CC TiVo will be out or FIOS will be an option for you. Unfortunately, this isn't a contest where the most elegant solution wins, what we get is what they can make money giving us. We have to choose the solution in order for it to win, and if you don't want to give D* your money for an HR20, that is completely in your control.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

JoeSchueller said:


> I completely agree: dual buffers and auto-correct would be fabulous, although recording both programs you want to buffer and coming out of ff with the replay button seem to be serviceable workarounds. Certainly no worse than me picking up (another) cordless phone


If they fixed that it would SAVE your pause point. Then that would work for me. I wouldn't have to watch one THEN watch the other one. Then I would delete both of them.


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## wmschultz (Jul 18, 2006)

Third time was a charm. I got the GREATEST CSR ever. Now, I have talked to
some good CSR's at DirecTV occassionaly but BETH is the absolute best.

They are going to swap 2 of my HR10-250's for free and then once that is done, I 
can call and talk to a supervisor to get my third swapped for free.

Next weekend they are coming out to install the 5 LNB dish, hook up 2 6x8 
Zinwells and swap out one of my HR10-250's with another one because 
it is having problems right now.

Beth, then started looking to see what else she could offer me, and she ended
up giving me the HD package for free for 4 months.

BETH YOU ARE THE GREATEST!!!!!

Subscriber for 10 years, NFL ST every year, NHL Center Ice for all but 1 year.


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## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

JoeSchueller said:


> The good news should be that you never *have* to get an HR20. Perhaps the S3 CC TiVo will be out or FIOS will be an option for you. Unfortunately, this isn't a contest where the most elegant solution wins, what we get is what they can make money giving us. We have to choose the solution in order for it to win, and if you don't want to give D* your money for an HR20, that is completely in your control.


Yes, and if these people do switch to FIOS or another TIVO, they will have their share of "problems" and will run on some other forums about how buggy these things are or don't have this feature or that feature.

Unless the newest unit is 100% to their liking (i.e. includes every feature THEY loved and is better, stronger, faster than their old one), they will be unhappy.

Go bionic man....


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So should DirecTV replace eveyrone's equipment for no cost... for ever?


Absolutely, they should. They are in competition with cable companies. Show me a cable company that has the balls to upgrade their system and then charge a customer $399 to upgrade their STB's so that they can watch the programming associated with that upgrade.

Now that D* has adopted the STB rental strategy that cable companies employ, then they need to be consistent with the Cable methodology across the board.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Bill Broderick said:


> Absolutely, they should. They are in competition with cable companies. Show me a cable company that has the balls to upgrade their system and then charge a customer $399 to upgrade their STB's so that they can watch the programming associated with that upgrade.
> 
> Now that D* has adopted the STB rental strategy that cable companies employ, then they need to be consistent with the Cable methodology across the board.


I agree I am not ok with the high lease fee. Though the cable co DOES chrage a higher monthly rate for their rental.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> Though the cable co DOES chrage a higher monthly rate for their rental.


Here in my area, Comcast charges $9.95/month to lease their HD DVR. Assuming a two-year lifespan on the HR20, and excluding the $5 lease fee, the HR20 costs $16.67/month to lease. Couple that with the fact that you're not actually paying $16.67/month and instead have to shell out $400 at the beginning, and it's just obscene. DirecTV's argument for the purchase prices used to be "but you own the equipment, with cable you don't!" Now, that argument is gone.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Bill Broderick said:


> Absolutely, they should. They are in competition with cable companies. Show me a cable company that has the balls to upgrade their system and then charge a customer $399 to upgrade their STB's so that they can watch the programming associated with that upgrade.
> 
> Now that D* has adopted the STB rental strategy that cable companies employ, then they need to be consistent with the Cable methodology across the board.


But I'll show you a Cable Company, that took 5 very popular channels, and moved them to the digital band... so you had no choice but to rent their box from them for each and every TV in your home (if you wanted to watch the channels there)...

So they may not have charged $399 but, depending on how many TV's you had, but if you where like my inlaws with 5 TV's, they had to spend another $25 a month


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## smimi10 (May 22, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV's argument for the purchase prices used to be "but you own the equipment, with cable you don't!" Now, that argument is gone.


I absolutely agree with the above. That reason was one of the selling points that I used on myself to originally ditch cable and go D*.

I am disappointed in the change of business model.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Bill Broderick said:


> Absolutely, they should. They are in competition with cable companies. Show me a cable company that has the balls to upgrade their system and then charge a customer $399 to upgrade their STB's so that they can watch the programming associated with that upgrade.
> 
> Now that D* has adopted the STB rental strategy that cable companies employ, then they need to be consistent with the Cable methodology across the board.


You got that right. Seems that at this point they want the best of both worlds. The old "own" world and the new "lease" world. Yet the lease model makes it easier to compare to cable.


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## jeffster (Nov 3, 2005)

wmschultz said:


> Third time was a charm. I got the GREATEST CSR ever. Now, I have talked to
> some good CSR's at DirecTV occassionaly but BETH is the absolute best.
> 
> They are going to swap 2 of my HR10-250's for free and then once that is done, I
> ...


A few questions:

1. Are they taking your H10-250s away? I want to do the migration, but I have hours and hours of TV programming stored on my HDTivos, and I'll never be ready to swap without at least some overlap time.

2. Did you buy or lease your H10-250s?

3. Oh, and are you going to own or lease the HR20s?


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

JoeSchueller said:


> Correct. As a shareholder, I say thank you to D*.
> 
> The brake analogy is bunk. Cupholders are more analogous - optional to the core purpose of the device. If the manufacturer creates a car that is more efficient, performs better, and happens to leave off the cupholder, you can keep your old car with the cupholders, or buy the new one - your choice.
> 
> ...


Do you work for Directv? I call BS on your cup holder analogy. You call me a TiVo apologist or zealot, but it is clearly your agenda to bash TiVo. We clearly have different view points, but I want a product to work. And it is absolutely stupid to believe that a product with less functionality is exceptable. I don't own a HR20 yeat as I am on the east coast, my opinions are based on the R15. There is no room to step back, only forward. And apparently you did not read what I posted earlier, I LIKE DIRECTV, and I will never go to cable or FIOS, but I want a quality product. And again thank you for saying TiVo is the most elegant solution. You are making it easy for me when you support my views. Also I do HAVE to get an HR20 if I want and HD DVR from Directv.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

cdavis said:


> it is absolutely stupid to believe that a product with less functionality is exceptable.


When the missing functionality is stuff that you don't ever use, there's nothing stupid about it. I always turn off Suggestions, never use Wishlists, and never switch between live buffers. So why should I stick with an outdated product?


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

jeffster said:


> A few questions:
> 
> 1. Are they taking your H10-250s away? I want to do the migration, but I have hours and hours of TV programming stored on my HDTivos, and I'll never be ready to swap without at least some overlap time.
> 
> ...


Had my install Friday and I still have Hr10s... Made the deal on my H20 as a swap but the installer wouldn't take it. He says they never "swap" the units, just deactivate 'em if you want.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

bobnielsen said:


> OT, but what surprises me is that Dish didn't purchase Replay. They did have a sizeable stake in that company at one time.


DISH prefers not buy companies. Instead, they steal companies' technology and infringe on their patents then put up a big stink when they're sued.


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## naijai (Aug 19, 2006)

Bill Broderick said:


> Absolutely, they should. They are in competition with cable companies. Show me a cable company that has the balls to upgrade their system and then charge a customer $399 to upgrade their STB's so that they can watch the programming associated with that upgrade.
> 
> Now that D* has adopted the STB rental strategy that cable companies employ, then they need to be consistent with the Cable methodology across the board.


well then if you think like that why dont you provide the money for development upfront and then no more complaing from anyone including you about equipment upgrade fees and everyone's happy


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

naijai said:


> well then if you think like that why dont you provide the money for development upfront and then no more complaing from anyone including you about equipment upgrade fees and everyone's happy


I know you work for DirecTV, but please don't just spout the corporate BS here. Cable is the competition, and cable doesn't charge you a $400 upfront fee to get a box. That's reality. Do you think the cable companies get the boxes for free? They don't...


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## redbirdruss (Aug 20, 2006)

What a great way to hone your negotiating skills.
My advice is to go into the negotiation willing to immediately cancel your service. This is the only leverage you have.
D* has to evaluate whether or not it is profitable to give away or upgrade equipment.
This is the free market system at its best.
There is no moral or ethical question, it's just a transaction.


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## wmschultz (Jul 18, 2006)

jeffster said:


> A few questions:
> 
> 1. Are they taking your H10-250s away? I want to do the migration, but I have hours and hours of TV programming stored on my HDTivos, and I'll never be ready to swap without at least some overlap time.
> 
> ...


I own 2 of the H10-250s and I guess I lease one of them because I got that for
free in June. I guess I'll lease the H20's which is fine because I don't modify them
or anything. They never said if they were going to take any away but I really can't
keep them hooked up once I upgrade because I don't have that many cable run's
available. I will keep them because my brother wants one of them.


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## JoeSchueller (Aug 17, 2006)

cdavis said:


> Do you work for Directv? I call BS on your cup holder analogy. You call me a TiVo apologist or zealot, but it is clearly your agenda to bash TiVo. We clearly have different view points, but I want a product to work. And it is absolutely stupid to believe that a product with less functionality is exceptable. I don't own a HR20 yeat as I am on the east coast, my opinions are based on the R15. There is no room to step back, only forward. And apparently you did not read what I posted earlier, I LIKE DIRECTV, and I will never go to cable or FIOS, but I want a quality product. And again thank you for saying TiVo is the most elegant solution. You are making it easy for me when you support my views. Also I do HAVE to get an HR20 if I want and HD DVR from Directv.


No, I most certainly do not work for D*. I do, however, want to see their stock grow and appreciate.

Why BS? According to Earl's experience thus far, the features that have been designed in work as advertised and more are coming. I think you may have missed my earlier point that the HR20 has *more* features than the HR10. Unfortunately, you seem stuck on a few of the differences between the two boxes and you are calling them bugs when they are simply design choices D* made.

Also, you do not have to get an HR20 until D* stops broadcasting what you want to see in MPEG2. Saying you'll never go with another option seems a little strange to me. I prefer to evaluate my options and select the best available at the time.

To be clear, my statements regarding this being a business choice, not a choice of elegance, were not at all intended to be an endorsement of TiVo. As you've correctly observed, I bash my HR10 every chance I get. It is in no way, shape, or form an elegant solution for my TV viewing needs. It is a kludge, and I can't wait until it is a doorstop (_but for you, I'd make you a good deal_). I'm simply trying to point out that your rants regarding the HR20's "lack" of features are pointless because the same people smart enough to keep you from ever wanting to pursue FIOS or Cable didn't think it made business sense to add them. Profits trump whatever you perceive as functionality. Clearly they find it an acceptable (_or, "exceptable" I guess_) business model.

Back to the topic, speaking of the business model... do we see D* going down the road of treating STB's as a significant revenue stream? Or will they simply remain part of the subscriber attraction/retention scheme. I also thought owning my STB was a big plus for D* when I first subscribed, but if I add it up over time, between my T60 and HR10, I would have done pretty well at $5/month - particularly if that $5/month gave me some hope of a "free" upgrade (_sorry c, I'll go with "swap-out"_) with an extended contract down the road. I love the idea of ownership, but I love the idea of saving money more. In my case, I've sunk about $600 or so in boxes over about 5 years, so I'd have saved very roughly $300 over that time.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

So you are saying that the recording of repeats when you select first run was a design choice. Way to go. I agree the HR20 WILL have more features, but does it now? And Earl has not voiced his opinion if something works or not, just describes the functionality or lack thereof. I have never ranted about the lack of features as a whole, just things it could do better and things that I like (that you agree with) that are missing. I would like to know why you dislike the HR10 so much, dish the dirt.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Jeremy W said:


> Cable is the competition, and cable doesn't charge you a $400 upfront fee to get a box... Do you think the cable companies get the boxes for free? They don't...


Cable leases their boxes and then rents them to subscribers for $10-15/month each. DirecTV has chosen a route which requires a much larger initial investment and they are passing it on. The question you have to ask yourself as a customer is whether or not it pencils out to do DirecTV or not. For some it does and others it doesn't.


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## thebarge (Aug 28, 2006)

I tend to agree with _cdavis_. I enjoy my HR10-250 Tivo based DVR. There are a couple features that stop me from jumping on the H20 bandwagon. The major one is dual live buffers. IMHO that's a serious problem. Maybe not to JoeSchueller, but I've been using the dual buffers for so long I don't think I could live without them.

That being said, I think the HR20 looks very promising. They installed my HR10 a couple days ago (I've been a Tivo user for 6+ years), and seeing it running Tivo 3.1 is disheartening. Terribly slow guide and no now playing folders. But it's my first HD experience, and the PQ (IMHO) is excellent. If they update my HR10 to 6.x I definitely won't be getting the HR20 anytime soon. I'll wait until bugs/issues are worked out 



cdavis said:


> So you are saying that the recording of repeats when you select first run was a design choice.


I read Earl's thread comparing the HR10 to the HR20 and he specifically said that the HR20 does a good job at being able to record first runs.

/showthread.php?p=629127#post629127

I couldnt post that as a link since I dont have 5 posts yet, but that's where Earl mentions the first run logic.


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## xuniman (Sep 16, 2003)

The dual buffers are my biggest "missing feature" gripe about the HR20 also but I think the work around of just starting a recording on the first channel and then flipping back and forth is available (I don't have my HR20 until Monday) and if it is it will serve my biggest need which is 2 football games at once. If the live buffer stays in pause while I watch the ongoing recording it will be about the same. Certainly less convinient but...


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

harsh said:


> Cable leases their boxes and then rents them to subscribers for $10-15/month each. DirecTV has chosen a route which requires a much larger initial investment and they are passing it on.


OK, so DirecTV charges $5/month while cable charges $10. With the $400 initial investment, it takes *80 months* to recoup compared to cable. Even if you go to the high end and assume a cost of $15/month for cable, it still takes 40 months to start seeing any savings.

I just don't see any advantage to the way DirecTV does things.


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## khajath (Feb 18, 2006)

Where I live, Time Warner cable charges:

- $10 rental fee for 1st box, $5 for each extra. 
- $10 DVR service charge for EACH box. 
- $5 HD service charge for EACH box. 
- $2.5 Digital programing charge for EACH box.

So if you have 4 TVs, all with DVR services, just the rental and the fee is $95/month, this is before any programming charge.

You don't have to take my words, just go into Time Warner cable website, and check it out. My neighbor cable bill is $160/month, just for TV.



Jeremy W said:


> Here in my area, Comcast charges $9.95/month to lease their HD DVR. Assuming a two-year lifespan on the HR20, and excluding the $5 lease fee, the HR20 costs $16.67/month to lease. Couple that with the fact that you're not actually paying $16.67/month and instead have to shell out $400 at the beginning, and it's just obscene. DirecTV's argument for the purchase prices used to be "but you own the equipment, with cable you don't!" Now, that argument is gone.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Good Lord! That's highway robbery!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

khajath said:


> Where I live, Time Warner cable charges:
> 
> - $10 rental fee for 1st box, $5 for each extra.
> - $10 DVR service charge for EACH box.
> ...


This is one of the EXACT reasons it is so hard to compare Dish/Direct to Cable Co to FIOS with regards to $$'s and even channels provided.

Cable Co's can have different rates in two neighboring Cities..... And fairly different programming options.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

khajath said:


> Where I live, Time Warner cable charges:
> 
> - $10 rental fee for 1st box, $5 for each extra.
> - $10 DVR service charge for EACH box.
> ...


Wow, you guys get a pretty raw deal. Around here, Comcast charges $5 for an HD box, and $10 for a DVR (they all do HD). Aside from the package fee, there are no other fees for those services.

You know you've got a problem when Comcast makes you look bad!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

khajath said:


> Where I live, Time Warner cable charges:
> 
> - $10 rental fee for 1st box, $5 for each extra.
> - $10 DVR service charge for EACH box.
> ...


That's steep. But do they require anything up front, or a commitment?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> That's steep. But do they require anything up front, or a commitment?


I'm sure they don't. That's one thing that, no matter the cable company, cable consistantly has over DBS.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> That's steep. But do they require anything up front, or a commitment?


Probably not unless you have a record of bad payment with them. You have to pick your poison: No down and 25% "interest" or a generous lump sum payment.

Of course you have to be comparing the equipment, PQ and programming also. You can get a used Kia Rio for free if you buy a new Kia, but does that make new Kia a great car?


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Maybe you all can give me some indication if this is the current state of affairs with DirecTV or not. 

I received an email stating the HR20 was now available in our area. This seemed great. I have been told on many occassions that we are "5 star" customers for DirecTV based upon the number of receivers and length of time we've been with them.

I called them up, and was told that the best they could do was to knock $100 off the new DVR price, and that I should be thankful they would do that. Suffice to say I was not impressed, and discovered that I could rip out my whole system (2 R15s, DirecTivo, 2 more receivers) and go with Dish for a total cost of $49 including the HD DVR.

I called them back and got through to someone with at least a little intelligence. They played all kinds of games with how they billed for the unit and come up with a reasonable approach (weird things with billing over 3 months and various credits to my account) only to then say they can not guarantee the type of equipment that will be installed. This just seems crazy to me. I told them that if the installer shows up with the old DVR I will refuse the installation and they can just keep reordering the units till he shows up with the right one. They said that was fine if I want to waste my time.

This all just seems ridiculous. Have you heard a lot of similar complaints???

Thanks


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Offers from other companies... for NEW customers or converts will always be astronmically low.... That is basically the way the business model is for all of these providers.

Low costs for new customers, higher costs for existing customers.

Some peple have gotten the unit for $19.99 (shipping), others $399, and a lot at $299... 

Credits is one of the tools DirecTV has at their disposal to "offset" the cost of the unit.

Your complaints are nothing "new"... this is the way things have been for many years now..

You will see the same complains from Dish customers, opting to move to DirecTV... and cable-co's moving to SAT providers.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Offers from other companies... for NEW customers or converts will always be astronmically low.... That is basically the way the business model is for all of these providers.
> 
> Low costs for new customers, higher costs for existing customers.
> 
> ...


I was glad to see the DirecTV guys come through with a reasonable price (something like $42.00 when all is said and done), but the stuff on not knowing whether they would bring the right equipment seemed kind of crazy to me. On top of it to even tell me it was okay to just send the installer on their merry way and call back to reorder the equipment until the right equipment showed up. All in all just very bizarre.


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