# Majority of HR20 Owners



## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

I monitor this site and it has been invaluable to me for getting help and guidance on a lot of areas. With the newest version came the one-click view for the guide which I think is great. I learned from this forum how to enable it from the hr20 front panel. However, I can't help but wonder about the majority of hr20 users that are not part of this forum. After they've turned them off, their front blue lights keep coming back on at each new version download...(Are they even aware there are downloads taking place?) How do they know that now they can get to their guide in one click, or how to enable it? They tried the ota channels when they first got their box and they didn't work so they never try again. Do they know they work now? How many tried something, it didn't work, they took it back to the store where they bought it, end of story? I received a card the other day that showed how the remote works. Maybe D* should send out some cards showing how to enable the one click guide, ota now works, etc.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

How do Joe Sixpack owners of Tivo know that there is a 30 seconds skip backdoor code not documented anywhere? 

Same thing.

By the way, the one click guide has been talked about as a possible option to check in the menu's at some point. It was put in there as it is now because we wanted it. Most people won't know or care that it will be an option.

OTA? 98% of people will never use it. They don't want an antenna. They didn't get a satellite receiver to use an antenna their parents and grandparents used.

Anyway, you got to remember that the other 99% of people out there really don't care, they just watch TV and are done with it. We are the "tweakers" that get into this stuff.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Along the same route as Bonscott...

At some point, DirecTV will send out something...
via an announcement on the unit... in your bill or something.

They are not just putting all these "features" in the system for "us" (as much as we would like to think so).
There will be a point, where they will either re-do the manual... or provide an updated "sheet".

But things are moving so fast... that just as soon as they get one out... it is already outdated.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

I think a manual redo would be in order considering how many errors there are in it.


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> How do Joe Sixpack owners of Tivo know that there is a 30 seconds skip backdoor code not documented anywhere?
> 
> Same thing.
> 
> ...


Wow. A little hostile towards the 'ignorant masses' eh?


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## lotaguts (Jan 18, 2007)

Forgive me for not using "search" but I was not aware that the OTA feature had been activated. So I should be able to record HD broadcasts picked up by my OTA which picks up a generous amount of locals and record them with my HR20. Can anyone say if the tuner is as powerful as the TV's I am using a Sony SXRD 55" a2000.


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## jba115 (Oct 6, 2006)

Just got one the other day, telling me 6.3(a?) software upgrade had arrived. Couldn't D* use the same method to inform public of significant improvements such as one push gudie change? Seems like that would show progress to those having problems.


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

lotaguts said:


> Forgive me for not using "search" but I was not aware that the OTA feature had been activated. So I should be able to record HD broadcasts picked up by my OTA which picks up a generous amount of locals and record them with my HR20. Can anyone say if the tuner is as powerful as the TV's I am using a Sony SXRD 55" a2000.


Yes, the ota feature now works and yes you can record the HD broadcasts from your ota antenna. Regarding your tv tuner vs the hr20 tv tuner, I guess you would have to try both to see which gets the better picture. Running it through the HR20 first is a lot more convenient. You have to 'set up' the hr20 tuner and tell it your zip code. The ota channels appear darker in your guide so you can tell the difference at a glance.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

At this point, a Google search of "HR20" shows this site as #2, so even if this were the only place to find out about these neat new features, they wouldn't exactly be hidden.

I have only so much sympathy for someone who won't at least do a search over the internet to help themselves. [OT] These are the same people who can't be bothered to chew their food and want it all mashed up in a bowl over at KFC [/OT]


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jba115 said:


> Just got one the other day, telling me 6.3(a?) software upgrade had arrived. Couldn't D* use the same method to inform public of significant improvements such as one push gudie change? Seems like that would show progress to those having problems.


Yes, they could...
And would expect them too...

In the case of One-Button Guide... I would wait until it is a menu option, and not a key-press combination on the front panel.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> How do Joe Sixpack owners of Tivo know that there is a 30 seconds skip backdoor code not documented anywhere?
> 
> Same thing.


So the OP asks a fair question and your reply is "Tivo didn't do that either"? :icon_lame



bonscott87 said:


> By the way, the one click guide has been talked about as a possible option to check in the menu's at some point. It was put in there as it is now because we wanted it. Most people won't know or care that it will be an option.
> 
> OTA? 98% of people will never use it. They don't want an antenna. They didn't get a satellite receiver to use an antenna their parents and grandparents used.
> 
> Anyway, you got to remember that the other 99% of people out there really don't care, they just watch TV and are done with it. We are the "tweakers" that get into this stuff.


Quite a few general assumptions there. "Most people won't know or care...", "OTA? 98% of people will never use it...", "99% of people out there really don't care....". I hope all of these are just "your opinions" and not based on any factual data.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

hr20manray said:


> Wow. A little hostile towards the 'ignorant masses' eh?


Not hostile, just stating the facts. I've worked in computer and technology support for going on 15 years now. It's just the fact of life most people are totally ignorant of technology. They just want to watch American Idol. A good analogy I hear from some "ignorant" users is that "I just want to drive my car, not know how to rebuild the engine".


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

hr20manray said:


> Wow. A little hostile towards the 'ignorant masses' eh?


I didn't read any hostility into it at all, nor any implication of ignorance. Someone can be quite intelligent, yet not care about the details of their DVR's operation. If they _do_ care, Google will lead them here soon enough.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

lamontcranston said:


> At this point, a Google search of "HR20" shows this site as #2, so even if this were the only place to find out about these neat new features, they wouldn't exactly be hidden.
> 
> I have only so much sympathy for someone who won't at least do a search over the internet to help themselves. [OT] These are the same people who can't be bothered to chew their food and want it all mashed up in a bowl over at KFC [/OT]


So everyone with a HR20 is expected to be internet savvy? Was there a requirement on the HR20 box stating this? I'm not sure why you make the assumption that everyone has a computer, everyone has internet access and everyone knows as much about the internet as the typical member of this forum. It's simply not true.

I'm setting up a forum for a local non-profit professional organization. These are business professionals that use PCs and the internet all day. Yet the majority of them have never seen a forum such as this and would never think of looking for one.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

From Phoenix I can tell you that everyone that I know that owns the HR20 (7 people) also uses OTA. It's the only way to get PBSHD and CW.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Anyway, you got to remember that the other 99% of people out there really don't care, they just watch TV and are done with it. We are the "tweakers" that get into this stuff.


This is exactly why the HR20 will be seen as a failure if its deficiencies are not consistently eliminated soon. The masses who just want to watch TV will not put up with constant audio dropouts and the host of other bugs that early adopters and tweakers are tolerating.


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> This is exactly why the HR20 will be seen as a failure if its deficiencies are not consistently eliminated soon. The masses who just want to watch TV will not put up with constant audio dropouts and the host of other bugs that early adopters and tweakers are tolerating.


I guess that's also why DirecTV can't keep up with the demand for HR20s. Oh, wait...


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> At this point, a Google search of "HR20" shows this site as #2, so even if this were the only place to find out about these neat new features, they wouldn't exactly be hidden.
> 
> I have only so much sympathy for someone who won't at least do a search over the internet to help themselves. [OT] These are the same people who can't be bothered to chew their food and want it all mashed up in a bowl over at KFC [/OT]


Hey now! I think the mashed potato bowl at KFC is delicious. It is a shame I can't go to one anymore since they may be infested with rats!


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So everyone with a HR20 is expected to be internet savvy? Was there a requirement on the HR20 box stating this? I'm not sure why you make the assumption that everyone has a computer, everyone has internet access and everyone knows as much about the internet as the typical member of this forum. It's simply not true...


It's not that everyone is expected to be internet savvy, but as with most products and endeavors, those who want to get the most out of the HR20 will spend more time and effort (and money) to do so. The internet has just made it much easier to pursue our obsessions obsessively.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

KurtV said:


> I guess that's also why DirecTV can't keep up with the demand for HR20s. Oh, wait...


Probably more due to the fact that most D* customers are unaware of the issues we here at DBSTalk are all to familiar with.


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## chudgins (Aug 3, 2006)

hr20manray said:


> Wow. A little hostile towards the 'ignorant masses' eh?


What's the backdoor code for the 30 second skip for TIVO? I've still got two of 'em.


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## machavez00 (Nov 2, 2006)

inazsully said:


> From Phoenix I can tell you that everyone that I know that owns the HR20 (7 people) also uses OTA. It's the only way to get PBSHD and CW.


Don't forget MyNetwork


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## psychobabbler (Sep 16, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> OTA? 98% of people will never use it. They don't want an antenna. They didn't get a satellite receiver to use an antenna their parents and grandparents used.


Interestingly enough, I didn't order the HR 20-700 until they activated the OTA, because I don't get any locals, SD or HD, from D* (though I wish they would offer them!). I actually learned from this forum that they had enabled the feature. When the installer came to put up the new dish and set up the HR20, he apologized to me that my current OTA (which I used with HDTIV0) would not work and that I wouldn't get my locals. I just laughed and told him what I knew. Granted, he hadn't installed that many in my area because most people who go satellite, go with Dish due to their having SD locals.

Also, a very tech savvy friend of mine in my town who adopted the HR20 early had his OTA antenna set up on his box prior to it being activated. I had to tell him it that it was up and running because he, too, didn't know, and he is exactly the kind of guy who does read forums like this one (though maybe not this specific one). It was not really on his radar, as he has MPEG-4 out of Dallas, even though that's not our area (he has never "moved" from his old apartment).

I agree. There needs to be a better way for your average Joe to have the kind of info that we on this forum seek out...


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## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

chudgins said:


> What's the backdoor code for the 30 second skip for TIVO? I've still got two of 'em.


select-play-select-3-0-select


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So everyone with a HR20 is expected to be internet savvy? Was there a requirement on the HR20 box stating this? I'm not sure why you make the assumption that everyone has a computer, everyone has internet access and everyone knows as much about the internet as the typical member of this forum. It's simply not true.
> 
> I'm setting up a forum for a local non-profit professional organization. These are business professionals that use PCs and the internet all day. Yet the majority of them have never seen a forum such as this and would never think of looking for one.


Point taken, and perhaps I should not be so harsh. The point was more of a global one, that people should make an effort to search for answers when answers are what they seek.

That being said, the other side of the coin is that HD as a whole is still largely in an early adoption phase and I would suspect -- not expect, suspect -- that a greater percentage of these people would be familiar with basic internet search technology.


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> How do Joe Sixpack owners of Tivo know that there is a 30 seconds skip backdoor code not documented anywhere?
> 
> Same thing.
> 
> ...


Great point, Most people do not know?
And some of the ones that do know , just don't understand.

By the way, Where can I get one of those cute one eyed one legged kittys..:icon_stup


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## Demsin2008 (Mar 1, 2007)

Chase, I cannot begin to tell you how disappointed I am with your NON response to my problems.

Let me first remind you that I am 64 years old, I have had 11 best selling books and I am a man of means.
I am not crazed customer, although you are certainly putting me in that category.

Your HD 20 simply does not work and yet you have totally ignored my pleas for more than 5 months.

There are 10's of thousands of complaints on the internet about this equipment. I am so tired of being involved in this every single day. My wife is ill with Parkinson's disease and the television is her only outlet 24 hours a day. She rarely sleeps.

This will be my very last plea for an answer from you. I need not threaten you, what good will that do?
However, I have many media contacts and I will start using them on Monday morning.

I also work for the National Democratic Party and I will use whatever influence I have with those who I know very well.

You are a public company that has a near monopoly and you simply cannot ignore this plea.

And so I leave you with the weekend to satisfy my problem, I was told by Nicole Martin before she left for vacation that I would get back 2 of the older HR 250 machines until these can be replaced.

If this reaches national media you will have only yourself to blame for the incompetence of your people.

SENT TO CHASE CAREY 4pm EDT Friday March 2, 2007


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## smitchell24 (Sep 22, 2005)

hr20manray said:


> I monitor this site and it has been invaluable to me for getting help and guidance on a lot of areas. With the newest version came the one-click view for the guide which I think is great. I learned from this forum how to enable it from the hr20 front panel. However, I can't help but wonder about the majority of hr20 users that are not part of this forum. After they've turned them off, their front blue lights keep coming back on at each new version download...(Are they even aware there are downloads taking place?) How do they know that now they can get to their guide in one click, or how to enable it? They tried the ota channels when they first got their box and they didn't work so they never try again. Do they know they work now? How many tried something, it didn't work, they took it back to the store where they bought it, end of story? I received a card the other day that showed how the remote works. Maybe D* should send out some cards showing how to enable the one click guide, ota now works, etc.


I think you make very good points! Many people that decide to upgrade to an HR-20 are at least somewhat techie & if they had a database or access to new features as they develop could be very interested & find them very usefull, v. spending hours reading all of these threads for the latest!

Is there a way we could have a sticky for one of the threads updating ALL new features for the HR-20, as they are made available? Cause I know even if I miss one or two days, there could be a new, cool feature I wasn't previously aware of!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

KurtV said:


> I guess that's also why DirecTV can't keep up with the demand for HR20s. Oh, wait...


One has nothing to do with the other. Do you know the production level Pace is at? Do you know the current level that orders are being placed.

Bottom line is that if someone wants a HD DVR from DTV they must order the HR20. That doesn't mean they're ordering it because they seen glowing reviews, it doesn't mean they "want" the HR20. It's the only HD DVR offered. Please, don't confuse an inventory shortage with it being a popular DVR.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> Point taken, and perhaps I should not be so harsh. The point was more of a global one, that people should make an effort to search for answers when answers are what they seek.
> 
> That being said, the other side of the coin is that HD as a whole is still largely in an early adoption phase and I would suspect -- not expect, suspect -- that a greater percentage of these people would be familiar with basic internet search technology.


My sisters ex husband has a house full of HD TV's, top end audio equipment, etc. He does not own a computer, has never had email, and has never used the internet, even in his work. It is very much possible in this day and age to be non-computer / non-internet and still function in society and enjoy other high tech products.

I think it is invalid for anyone, or any company, to assume that their customers have and use internet functions.

Carl


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

carl6 said:


> I think it is invalid for anyone, or any company, to assume that their customers have and use internet functions.


Except maybe ISPs....


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

carl6 said:


> My sisters ex husband has a house full of HD TV's, top end audio equipment, etc. He does not own a computer, has never had email, and has never used the internet, even in his work. It is very much possible in this day and age to be non-computer / non-internet and still function in society and enjoy other high tech products.
> 
> I think it is invalid for anyone, or any company, to assume that their customers have and use internet functions.
> 
> Carl


All of which is why I used words like "suspect" and "greater percentage". Of course there are going to people like your ex-brother-in-law and on the other side of the scale you've got people who pal around with Sir Tim Berners-Lee. An Internet connection should not be required to use these things, for certain. However, having one, and having search skills, certainly would allow an enterprising and inquiring person to learn more about the technology should they choose to.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Demsin2008 said:


> Chase, I cannot begin to tell you how disappointed I am with your NON response to my problems.
> ...
> Your HD 20 simply does not work and yet you have totally ignored my pleas for more than 5 months.


Sir Demsin2008,

I believe that you are referring to the HR20 because the HD20 is not a DirecTV product. In addition, might I suggest that you switch to an alternate DirecTV product or switch to another service provider. It is abundantly clear that you and your HR20 do not have a Utopian relationship.

Cheers.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

lamontcranston said:


> All of which is why I used words like "suspect" and "greater percentage". Of course there are going to people like your ex-brother-in-law and on the other side of the scale you've got people who pal around with Sir Tim Berners-Lee. An Internet connection should not be required to use these things, for certain. However, having one, and having search skills, certainly would allow an enterprising and inquiring person to learn more about the technology should they choose to.


So back to the OPs question. How does Joe SixPack, without access to this forum know he's gotten a new update or know what's been fixed?

Why isn't the built in messaging facility on both the R15 and HR20 being used?


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So back to the OPs question. How does Joe SixPack, without access to this forum know he's gotten a new update or know what's been fixed?
> 
> Why isn't the built in messaging facility on both the R15 and HR20 being used?


Good points.

Ask yourself this; How many people using a PC know that there are BIOS upgrades for 
there system to make it better.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So back to the OPs question. How does Joe SixPack, without access to this forum know he's gotten a new update or know what's been fixed?
> 
> Why isn't the built in messaging facility on both the R15 and HR20 being used?


and that's the big question, isn't it? I agree, Messages should be enabled, pronto! We tend to not complain about it here, because we all have each other, but there's the thing - I said it months ago, that an excellent marketing opportunity is being missed here.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

BobV said:


> Good points.
> 
> Ask yourself this; How many people using a PC know that there are BIOS upgrades for
> there system to make it better.


Correct, most don't know about BIOS upgrades for PCs. But if they register their purchased software and Windows/Linux/Apple OS, they get notices and are told when new, improved, fixed versions are available.

HR20 are by default registered, they get the updates automatically and have no choice, yet they're not told when the get an update and are not told what the update includes.

DTV is producing these updates to make the units work better yet they're missing the mark by telling customers "Hey, the BEST SAT provider around has just released an update for your unit. Now you can do..... Now we've fixed....". I don't understand why that part of this process is missing.


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> One has nothing to do with the other. Do you know the production level Pace is at? Do you know the current level that orders are being placed.
> 
> Bottom line is that if someone wants a HD DVR from DTV they must order the HR20. That doesn't mean they're ordering it because they seen glowing reviews, it doesn't mean they "want" the HR20. It's the only HD DVR offered. Please, don't confuse an inventory shortage with it being a popular DVR.


One may indeed have much to do with the other. If there is a shortage that's being driven by higher than expected demand, that would be an effective counter to the post to which I was replying.

No, I don't know what the production level is, nor the lease/buy rate, nor many other facts pertinent to this discussion (nor, do I expect, do you). I don't even know if there is, in fact, a shortage of HR-20s relative to the demand for them. But, most things I've read here and elsewhere seem to support the assertion that there's a demand-driven shortage of HR20s. My post was (I thought) a lighthearted way to point out that the opinion expressed in the post I was replying to seemed illogical given the reported shortage.

I'm not confusing anything.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So back to the OPs question. How does Joe SixPack, without access to this forum know he's gotten a new update or know what's been fixed?
> 
> Why isn't the built in messaging facility on both the R15 and HR20 being used?


I'm still new here, but isn't DirecTV sending updates monthly if not more often? How confused or frustrated would Joe Sixpack be if once a month they got a message from DirecTV saying that their software version was updated, especially if something didn't work quite right after the isntall? As someone else stated, many customers may not even be aware that their software has been updated, so to get monthly messages about it (or more frequent messages), could also give the perception that there's something wrong with the software that it needs this many updates. (Think Microsoft and Super Patch Tuesday - they had to go to once a month because the perception with daily patches was that there was a never-ending list of bugs.)

Maybe DirecTV should only send messages when new features are available (one-button-guide, OTA), but not for *each* software version?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

drew2k,

I would subscribe to the same line of thinking. Perhaps quarterly or semiannual announcements of all of the "fixes" that have taken place. It could start with Stability improvements :lol:. Seriously, though, announcements too often would be more of a detriment than a benefit.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> So back to the OPs question. How does Joe SixPack, without access to this forum know he's gotten a new update or know what's been fixed?


"Joe" is not the target market for the HR20, let alone D*TV in genera. They've been touting how they are going after the moderate-to-upscale market in their quarterly financial meetings for almost 2 years. That said, there is a notification message available for D*TV to use within virtually all their receivers/DVR's if they chose to do so.


Wolffpack said:


> Most don't know about BIOS upgrades for PCs. But if they register their purchased software and Windows/Linux/Apple OS, they get notices and are told when new, improved, fixed versions are available.


As the proud owner of 4 PCs bought within the past year, all from different major namebrand manufacturers, I can attest to the fact that it just ain't so.

You have to register your PC, update your profile regularly, and if you're lucky, you'll get a newletter-type e-mail from time to time - then, you have to still do a menu-based search to find if there are any new updates - the manufacturers sure don't volunteer or broadcast there's something new on the BIOS or driver front out there. I get e-mails from all 4 manufacturers all the time, but BIOS or driver update notifications? Wishful thinking.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Demsin2008 said:


> Your HD 20 simply does not work and yet you have totally ignored my pleas for more than 5 months.


You may get a better response if you refer to it by the correct model number, the HR20-700.



Demsin2008 said:


> There are 10's of thousands of complaints on the internet about this equipment. I am so tired of being involved in this every single day.


If you are tired of dealing with this box and don't see any chance of improvement in the near future, why not go with a cable provider or Dish Network instead?



Demsin2008 said:


> This will be my very last plea for an answer from you. I need not threaten you, what good will that do?
> However, I have many media contacts and I will start using them on Monday morning.
> 
> I also work for the National Democratic Party and I will use whatever influence I have with those who I know very well.


Not sure what you aim to accomplish here. The problems with the HR20 have been reported by many websites which cover such material. And I'm pretty sure the politicians have some slightly more pressing matters to deal with.



Demsin2008 said:


> You are a public company that has a near monopoly and you simply cannot ignore this plea.


Again... Dish Network, local cable providers, and even Verizon FIOS in some areas. Doesn't seem like a monopoly to me.



Demsin2008 said:


> If this reaches national media you will have only yourself to blame for the incompetence of your people.


All that I've seen from your posts is that your HR20 locks up several times a day and that you've received about 10 replacements in hope of fixing the problem. I don't recall seeing anyone else on this forum report such a high frequency of lockups. I really really think this is either a problem with your dish, coax cabling, or power lines in your home. D* has been very attentive at trying to patch all the bugs. I would hardly call them incompetent.

My advice to you is to start thinking about another service provider.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

brott said:


> drew2k,
> 
> I would subscribe to the same line of thinking. Perhaps quarterly or semiannual announcements of all of the "fixes" that have taken place. It could start with Stability improvements :lol:. Seriously, though, announcements too often would be more of a detriment than a benefit.


Could also lead to increased calls to customer service after each software installation and message: "My name's Joe. I have this message on my box, but I don't understand what it means. Do I need to do something?"


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

drew2k said:


> Could also lead to increased calls to customer service after each software installation and message: "My name's Joe. I have this message on my box, but I don't understand what it means. Do I need to do something?"


Yes it could. The minimalistic approach that DirecTV is currently using is probably as good as any. We know they listen here.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

First of all, many people tried to help you in your thread you posted but I don't believe you responded back with answers to people trying to help.



Demsin2008 said:


> My wife is ill with Parkinson's disease and the television is her only outlet 24 hours a day. She rarely sleeps.


Second, if TV is so critical in your life like this, why haven't you just switched to Dish Network (or cable if available)? The only reason I can see to stay with DirecTV over anyone else would be Sunday Ticket and I would think that your wife's needs far outweigh Sunday Ticket (unless that's a joy for her).

Switch and be happy. No need to stress yourself or your wife out over TV.


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## HD AV (Nov 22, 2006)

I Am Really Ticked Off By The Remarks Concerning Research And The Use Of The Internet For The Hr20. Not A Single One Of Us Should "look Down" On Those That Neither Have The Means, Or The Inclination, To Search The Net To Understand What Is Happening With A Product They Purchased. There Are Many People That Do Not Understand (or Care) About The Technology Behind The Product, They Just Expect It To Do What It Was Purchased For. Shame On Anyone Who Belittles Them Because They Do Not Search The Net To Get The Type Of Information Presented In This Forum. There Are Many Who Just Would Not Understand What They Were Reading, Much Less Be Able To Apply The Information In A Useful Manor. This Is Not Because They Are Lazy, Stupid Or Uneducated, Rather, A Product Of Exposure, Interest, And Experience. My Mother Is 82 And Gets Unnerved/upset Just Trying To Program Her Vcr To Record When It Acts Up. She Was In Charge Of A Large Finance And Accounting Dept. And Can Still Blow Most All Of Us Technofiles Out Of The Water With Managing Money And Figuring Taxes. She Has Never Used A Computer And Has No Desire To. Should She Be Criticized For A Lack Of The Knowledge Provided Here If I Bought Her An Hr20 To Replace Her Cable And Vcr? I Believe We Have A Few Here Who Consider Themselves Superior To Others Because They Have An Interest, Aptitude, And Ability Some Others May Not. Again Shame On You!!!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

HD AV,

To whom do you refer? I don't recall reading a message where folks are being belittled.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

As one of the people who have had the hr20 almost from the beginning, I have yet to recieve one notice of a feature added since it was new  not even the OTA.. If not for DBSTalk I'd still be waiting.. They should definately announce major new features..
P.S. joe sixpack IS the one buying these to go with thier new hdtvs that are FLYING off the shelf.. Even my stepdaughter bought one this year, and she had to have the store come hook it up


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

houskamp said:


> As one of the people who have had the hr20 almost from the beginning, I have yet to recieve one notice of a feature added since it was new  not even the OTA.. If not for DBSTalk I'd still be waiting.. They should definately announce major new features..
> P.S. joe sixpack IS the one buying these to go with thier new hdtvs that are FLYING off the shelf.. Even my stepdaughter bought one this year, and she had to have the store come hook it up


So J6P is buying an HDTV and an HD satellite receiver but doesn't have the means or technical wherewithal to find this site or DirecTV's forum or even call a CSR (for major changes like OTA)? I'm sure there are some cases of this, but I really have trouble believing that it's a widespread issue.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

brott said:


> HD AV,
> 
> To whom do you refer? I don't recall reading a message where folks are being belittled.


I'm confused about this as well.

Btw HD AV, capitalizing the first letter in every single word makes for very difficult reading.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Bet it is a lot more common than you think... bought because it was cool!!


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> I'm confused about this as well.
> 
> Btw HD AV, capitalizing the first letter in every single word makes for very difficult reading.


+1


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## 420benz (Dec 20, 2006)

Can someone tell me about the One- Button Guide. My HR- 20 is only one day old and i must press the button twice. I must be missing something.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

KurtV said:


> So J6P is buying an HDTV and an HD satellite receiver but doesn't have the means or technical wherewithal to find this site or DirecTV's forum or even call a CSR (for major changes like OTA)? I'm sure there are some cases of this, but I really have trouble believing that it's a widespread issue.


I know people on both sides of this equation. Boils down to "its cool!" For some, like myself, "its cool" includes internet surfing. For others, "its cool" means NASCAR or Baseball or NFL or CSI looks "really, really great" but have no interest in computers whatsoever.

And the intelligence is not the issue. Its the time and the interest.

That is why BestBuy made some serious $$ on the "we'll make your HD right" campaign.

Cheers,
Tom


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> I'm confused about this as well.
> 
> Btw HD AV, capitalizing the first letter in every single word makes for very difficult reading.


yAh! I'm conFused tO...:grin:


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

tibber said:


> I know people on both sides of this equation. Boils down to "its cool!" For some, like myself, "its cool" includes internet surfing. For others, "its cool" means NASCAR or Baseball or NFL or CSI looks "really, really great" but have no interest in computers whatsoever.
> *
> That's probably true, but most of those people are just coming to the HR20 now or in the past couple of months when the box has been pretty reliable and since the last major feature was added (OTA). Sure they're missing out on some undocumented tricks and tips, but nothing major. Do those people care that the firmware has been updated? I doubt it.*
> 
> ...


Keep the level headed, insightful posts coming, Tom.

Kurt


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Tom_S said:


> Probably more due to the fact that most D* customers are unaware of the issues we here at DBSTalk are all to familiar with.


Yup. Those constant audio dropouts are invisible to the leasee until he/she has visited bstalk.com.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

drew2k said:


> I'm still new here, but isn't DirecTV sending updates monthly if not more often? How confused or frustrated would Joe Sixpack be if once a month they got a message from DirecTV saying that their software version was updated, especially if something didn't work quite right after the isntall? As someone else stated, many customers may not even be aware that their software has been updated, so to get monthly messages about it (or more frequent messages), could also give the perception that there's something wrong with the software that it needs this many updates. (Think Microsoft and Super Patch Tuesday - they had to go to once a month because the perception with daily patches was that there was a never-ending list of bugs.)
> 
> Maybe DirecTV should only send messages when new features are available (one-button-guide, OTA), but not for *each* software version?


Or sending a message out every time a new release went national would call attention to the problem. More would be aware of how DTV has been scrambling over the past 6 months to fix problems that existed.

SP Tuesday is to handle new security problems discovered over the past week. DTVs HR20 updates are to fix problems that should have been handled before the unit was released.

Obviously DTV doesn't want the masses to know they've been updating this unit. That doesn't make the practice right.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> First of all, many people tried to help you in your thread you posted but I don't believe you responded back with answers to people trying to help.
> 
> Second, if TV is so critical in your life like this, why haven't you just switched to Dish Network (or cable if available)? The only reason I can see to stay with DirecTV over anyone else would be Sunday Ticket and I would think that your wife's needs far outweigh Sunday Ticket (unless that's a joy for her).
> 
> Switch and be happy. No need to stress yourself or your wife out over TV.


WOW,

Why do you, among others, continually feel the need to attack anyone that voices a problem with this unit. Lighten up. Give folks a break. The answer isn't to go elsewhere as everyone this unit just signed up for a 2 year commitment.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

brott said:


> HD AV,
> 
> To whom do you refer? I don't recall reading a message where folks are being belittled.


Read again, there have been plenty.


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## 1charmedlife (Feb 21, 2007)

Demsin2008 said:


> Chase, I cannot begin to tell you how disappointed I am with your NON response to my problems.
> 
> Let me first remind you that I am 64 years old, I have had 11 best selling books and I am a man of means.
> I am not crazed customer, although you are certainly putting me in that category.
> ...


"Near monopoly"? Are you nuts? There are more choices than today available for you and your wife (and I'm sorry for her illness) to get your media from than in the history of the medium.

DirecTV being one of *two* satellite providers does not in any way preclude you from being able to get Cable, or OTA programming (of up to 125 channels!!!, you, being 64, will recall the years when antennas brought you only 4 or 6 if you were lucky!!!).

While you may be upset with DirecTV's service, it's inaccurate and unfortunate for anyone to put them on the spot as a monopolist or someone taking advantage of other people in light of the fact they provide what it is largely a "luxury" service to their customers.

No one needs DirecTV to live or have a satisfying life.

Saying that you do only puts you in the position of portraying yourself as a victim while no one else really believes you are.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Read again, there have been plenty.


Well, I must be dense because I'm not seeing it. Any chance you could point it out to me?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Or sending a message out every time a new release went national would call attention to the problem. More would be aware of how DTV has been scrambling over the past 6 months to fix problems that existed.


I think they should tell us in a message every time they update the software. Especially when new items are included (like OTA or when they formally release the one button guide or when they release DLB).

There is nothing wrong with just saying a national release is a bug fix. It is all in how it is worded. If they write "We finally got around to fixing a bug we just neglected to get right in the first place," that won't fly. If they write that they are "Constantly improving the HR20 to make your TV watching experience better and better" they get some nice PR.

But you should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER update someone's software without telling them.

I am active on the CE releases but when the national 134 release went out, I wasn't on the internet that day (and hadn't gotten email about a new CE, so I didn't think I missed anything). When I found my DVR rebooted, I thought I hit a problem since until I came here and found out about the release.

That is worse than not saying anything. J6P will assume his unit has/had a problem when he goes to see what is on tomorrow and his guide is half-empty. (It is not that it will always be unnoticed by J6P...even the lights on the front are documented.)

But notice on new features not being sent out is totally unforgiveable and bad business. When you add a feature, you want your customers to know so they are more satisfied.

And, it is not like there are have been a ton of national releases since the first few months that didn't include some new feature as well as bug fixes. (We think there were more because we are doing the CE thing but J6P hasn't seen that many.)


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> Yup. Those constant audio dropouts are invisible to the leasee until he/she has visited bstalk.com.


Since the discussion was about people buying the units, how are the problems visible to a guy who walks into Best Buy and "buys" his first HR20?

If he doesn't come here to find out the issues BEFORE he buys, he will go ahead and buy thinking "Wow! This must be great! It is new!"


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> WOW,
> 
> Why do you, among others, continually feel the need to attack anyone that voices a problem with this unit. Lighten up. Give folks a break. The answer isn't to go elsewhere as everyone this unit just signed up for a 2 year commitment.


Who's attacking? He's obviously having big problems (although doesn't appear to actually want any help in the thread he started).

I simply stated that if he's had all these problems for months with no end in sight and it's now affecting his sick wife, then why doesn't he switch to something that works? DirecTV obviously isn't working for him no doubt about it. If I was in his position I'd eat what commitment I had and switch to something that will make my wife's life a whole lot better and stress free.

So are you suggesting that he and his wife continue to suffer with an unstable receiver? Not me, dump DirecTV as quick as you can and be happy.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Who's attacking?


That cat I think! :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Let's move this back to where the OP is posting:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=81196
We don't need to "waste" multiple threads about the same issue. IMO


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Let's move this back to where the OP is posting:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=81196
> We don't need to "waste" multiple threads about the same issue. IMO


I agree, and if any mods are monitoring, hopefully it's clear that veryoldshcool is only talking about moving discussion of Demsin2008's issue back to his separate thread ...

I think the point brought up by the OP of *this* thread is worth discussion (when, how, and how often should DirecTV notify its customers of software updates?), and is a separate issue from what Demsin2008 is posting about.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

brott said:


> Yes it could. The minimalistic approach that DirecTV is currently using is probably as good as any. We know they listen here.


I'll reply the same way I replied to you way back when, not to be snarky but because I think newer members might be interested:

Customers who complain to customer service could get a message that says, "Dear customer: We've noted your complaint and we've sent a new software upgrade that might help. Please let us know how we did." This might generate higher call volume but might generate higher customer satisfaction as well.

There's also no downside, as far as I can see, to messages that say "new feature" or "new channel."


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Who's attacking? He's obviously having big problems (although doesn't appear to actually want any help in the thread he started).
> 
> I simply stated that if he's had all these problems for months with no end in sight and it's now affecting his sick wife, then why doesn't he switch to something that works? DirecTV obviously isn't working for him no doubt about it. If I was in his position I'd eat what commitment I had and switch to something that will make my wife's life a whole lot better and stress free.
> 
> So are you suggesting that he and his wife continue to suffer with an unstable receiver? Not me, dump DirecTV as quick as you can and be happy.


The party line here is "if you don't like it, go someplace else". MY point here is anyone with a HR20 has at least 18 months left in a 2 year commitment. It's not that easy.

From his original thread I'm not sure I would have even come back to post any update based on some of the original, now removed, posts. But he did and informed us DTV has been onsite working on this 6 different days. DTVs solution seems to be to provide him with two HR10's yet they haven't done this. That may be the only solution.

Switching providers isn't the catch all solution some seem to think it is. Everyone agrees some subscribers have big problems with these units. Be that hardware, software, high usage or even environmental influences such as microwave or power line interference. Something is effecting his units and while DTV has tried to do something they still haven't found the problem. Maybe if they put some more resources into this situation they might discover a big source of other customer's problems. Instead, even DTVs recommendation is to give him HR10s that were working before his HR20s.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> The party line here is "if you don't like it, go someplace else". MY point here is anyone with a HR20 has at least 18 months left in a 2 year commitment. It's not that easy.


If my wife was that sick and needed reliable TV to keep some quality of life you bet I'd be going someplace else in a heartbeat, I'd make it happen. But to each his own. Back to our regularly scheduled thread...


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## rahchgo (Feb 2, 2007)

I'm curious. D* can send messages to my receiver. Occasionally they announce new channels and other things there. Can they send messages to a specific type of receiver? If so, they could tell users about new function. OTA capability would be good thing to announce. One button guide, later, when it's menu setup option. IMHO.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

rahchgo said:


> I'm curious. D* can send messages to my receiver. Occasionally they announce new channels and other things there. Can they send messages to a specific type of receiver? If so, they could tell users about new function. OTA capability would be good thing to announce. One button guide, later, when it's menu setup option. IMHO.


That was my thinking as well. I'd love to see a message on my HR20. I've had it since day one and still have yet to get a message.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> That was my thinking as well. I'd love to see a message on my HR20. I've had it since day one and still have yet to get a message.


Nobody @ D* wants to talk to us..  :lol:


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> That was my thinking as well. I'd love to see a message on my HR20. I've had it since day one and still have yet to get a message.


YAH!! I can see it now; a message popping up on the screen saying;;
*"You've got mail"* every 5 minutes..:uglyhamme


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

BobV said:


> YAH!! I can see it now; a message popping up on the screen saying;;
> *"You've got mail"* every 5 minutes..:uglyhamme


You know it. Or even worse.... Please stand by for an exciting new offer from Direct TV:lol:


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

!rolling !rolling


armophob said:


> You know it. Or even worse.... Please stand by for an exciting new offer from Direct TV:lol:


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

lamontcranston said:


> Point taken, and perhaps I should not be so harsh. The point was more of a global one, that people should make an effort to search for answers when answers are what they seek.
> 
> That being said, the other side of the coin is that HD as a whole is still largely in an early adoption phase and I would suspect -- not expect, suspect -- that a greater percentage of these people would be familiar with basic internet search technology.


Umm...early adoption? Go into any electronics store or mass marketers and find something that is not an HD TV. It's pretty hard to do.

The HD early adopter phase was phased out two years ago. This is the should have been ready for mass marketing and broad consumer use phase.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

BobV said:


> Good points.
> 
> Ask yourself this; How many people using a PC know that there are BIOS upgrades for
> there system to make it better.


Bob,

Actually quite a few recently as many of the major PC/motherboard manufacturers have included utilities that check and either automatically download/install those patchs or alert the customer to their presence.

But, comparing PC purchasing to a DVR really isn't a great analogy. PCs are by their nature required to do a whole lot more than the HR20. The HR20 is a closed system. DirecTV basically controls everything that goes in and out of the box (with the exception of OTA signal).


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

KurtV said:


> One may indeed have much to do with the other. If there is a shortage that's being driven by higher than expected demand, that would be an effective counter to the post to which I was replying.
> 
> No, I don't know what the production level is, nor the lease/buy rate, nor many other facts pertinent to this discussion (nor, do I expect, do you). I don't even know if there is, in fact, a shortage of HR-20s relative to the demand for them. But, most things I've read here and elsewhere seem to support the assertion that there's a demand-driven shortage of HR20s. My post was (I thought) a lighthearted way to point out that the opinion expressed in the post I was replying to seemed illogical given the reported shortage.
> 
> I'm not confusing anything.


There's no shortage of DVRs. As of last night Crutchfield told me they have hundreds in stock. Perhaps the only reason some places are out of stock is because D* did as good a job with distribution and fulfillment on this unit as they did with QA.


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

Wolffpack said:


> The party line here is "if you don't like it, go someplace else". MY point here is anyone with a HR20 has at least 18 months left in a 2 year commitment. It's not that easy.QUOTE]
> 
> I think the party line seems to be, and I did not see any of the deleted posts so I may have missed some cruel comments, is if you have had 6 months of problems or, or you have had multiple boxes, or if you have a person in the house with a debilitating illness and depends on TV for their everyday enjoyment or if you cannot get any satisfaction, then you do have other provider options. Period. The commitment that you and everyonse immidiately throws out there can be bought out at 12.95 per remaining month, ridiculous yes but an option nonetheless. Another option is to step back to an SD dvr or use just a HD box, and wait till the bugs are all worked out. Once again, not the best option but an option nonetheless. Point is, before I tried to engage the powers of the Democratic Party, who might be a little more busy with Obama, and Hillary, than to worry about D* not fixing the box of one its constituants, or threaten to sue D*, and Pace and any one else involved with the development of the box, I would think that it would be a hell of al lot easier to just go away. And as I say these are generally people who have had multilple units or problems, way more than are statistically likely for a single component failure. I dont disput or even question that D* is wholly responsible for these problems, BUT if they cant or wont fix them, leave them, terminate your service and mail them a 12.95 payment every month for the remainder of the commitment and get the piece of mind that you do not have to deal with all of the hassles. And I do not feel that is belittling, or mean to the person. The amount of effort that some people are willing to put forth to attack D* because although they dont like any aspect of the company, or they are upset that they are going to lose their Tivo unit is just amazing to me and I think a lot of the other people on the website.
> 
> Jim


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

jimb726 said:


> Wolffpack said:
> 
> 
> > The party line here is "if you don't like it, go someplace else". MY point here is anyone with a HR20 has at least 18 months left in a 2 year commitment. It's not that easy.QUOTE]
> ...


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Ken S said:


> Umm...early adoption? Go into any electronics store or mass marketers and find something that is not an HD TV. It's pretty hard to do.
> 
> The HD early adopter phase was phased out two years ago. This is the should have been ready for mass marketing and broad consumer use phase.


Well, sure you can't buy a TV anymore that isn't HD. But less then 20% actually have and HD source connected to that HDTV.  You see articles on this all the time. People think that just the HDTV itself now means all their channels are in HD or that "digital cable" means they have HD. Consumers don't have a clue and you should know that by now. 

HD is still an early adopter stage but is quickly moving out of it, perhaps in the next year. All depends if Joe Sixpack gets an edumacation on what HD really is. :hurah:


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, sure you can't buy a TV anymore that isn't HD. But less then 20% actually have and HD source connected to that HDTV.  You see articles on this all the time. People think that just the HDTV itself now means all their channels are in HD or that "digital cable" means they have HD. Consumers don't have a clue and you should know that by now.
> 
> HD is still an early adopter stage but is quickly moving out of it, perhaps in the next year. All depends if Joe Sixpack gets an edumacation on what HD really is. :hurah:


Actually, if you just plug most local cable systems (Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner) into the back of an HD set you'll get some HD channels. No HD subscription, cable box, cable card, sat dish is necessary...just straight service.

My 80-year old mother discovered this when she got a new TV. She asked me why the same show was on 2 channels but looked better on one. She might not know what "HD" or an "HD Source" is...and she shouldn't have to...but she has it. If our experience in NJ, Mass and Florida is consistent with other areas quite a large percentage of people are receiving HD and probably watching it.

Early adopter to me would be people having to hunt for one or two potential HD sets, then having to do the same for sources. That's just not the case today...it's mass market. Unfortunately, one of the largest providers of HD Source hasn't done their job in making their equipment and signal mass market ready.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Actually, if you just plug most local cable systems (Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner) into the back of an HD set you'll get some HD channels. No HD subscription, cable box, cable card, sat dish is necessary...just straight service.
> 
> My 80-year old mother discovered this when she got a new TV. She asked me why the same show was on 2 channels but looked better on one. She might not know what "HD" or an "HD Source" is...and she shouldn't have to...but she has it. If our experience in NJ, Mass and Florida is consistent with other areas quite a large percentage of people are receiving HD and probably watching it.
> 
> Early adopter to me would be people having to hunt for one or two potential HD sets, then having to do the same for sources. That's just not the case today...it's mass market. Unfortunately, one of the largest providers of HD Source hasn't done their job in making their equipment and signal mass market ready.


From my "limited" cable experience: not all cable is so easy to pick up. My local digital requires their box to receive it. I get nothing when connecting the cable up to various digital tuners. FWIW, YMMV.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> From my "limited" cable experience: not all cable is so easy to pick up. My local digital requires their box to receive it. I get nothing when connecting the cable up to various digital tuners. FWIW, YMMV.


What is really weird, we bought our house almost 10 years ago. They didn't disconnect the previous owners cable tv package from the house. To this day, we still get the "basic" package. The HD OTA channels are available thru "passthru" on the "basic" package, which I find unusual to say the least.
Anyway, back to your scheduled programming.


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## oenophile (Dec 1, 2006)

Ken S said:


> There's no shortage of DVRs. As of last night Crutchfield told me they have hundreds in stock. Perhaps the only reason some places are out of stock is because D* did as good a job with distribution and fulfillment on this unit as they did with QA.


Or...perhaps...they've made a conscious decision to ensure that retail stores have plenty of HR20's in stock so that they can tempt new subscribers to join more easily. (New subscribers who are buying a new HDTV and may be trying to figure out what service to get and may make an impulse buy in the store, as opposed to existing subscribers who are less likely to switch and will just call D*.) Maybe they'd rather run out of boxes at direct-sales level than the retail-stores level?

There is something a bit odd going on here though: When I ordered my HR20 (early February) they gave no indication there was a shortage and installed one within 2 weeks.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, sure you can't buy a TV anymore that isn't HD.


Maybe you are exaggerating, but Wal-Mart sells several SD tube sets. The TV that Humax makes with a built-in D* receiver is SD. Pocket TVs are SD.

They are out there.


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So back to the OPs question. How does Joe SixPack, without access to this forum know he's gotten a new update or know what's been fixed?
> 
> Why isn't the built in messaging facility on both the R15 and HR20 being used?


With my original question of how the rest of the public using the hr20, and how they are going to know what things work or have been upgraded, this sounds like a great solution. (minus all the political opinions it generated) In every satellite box I've ever owned the messaging ability was always there and working; usually D* trying to get you to buy something. They could send a message to all the units that the ota's work and the single click for the menu works, future enhancements, etc. A very thoughtful solution. I'll have to admit, during this whole incident I believe D* has lost some credibility and that would go a long way to "all" the customers to show they are working on it and things are improving. Again, a nice solution.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

D* should just get with the times and provide a robust online version of the guide that can be updated often and easily for us poor users...


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

rahchgo said:


> I'm curious. D* can send messages to my receiver. Occasionally they announce new channels and other things there. Can they send messages to a specific type of receiver? If so, they could tell users about new function. OTA capability would be good thing to announce. One button guide, later, when it's menu setup option. IMHO.


Ages ago I thought the messaging was cool from D*. The novelty wore off after about 6 months though, and I gradually have become completely apothetic to it. I can not tell you the last time I read the messages on any of my receivers. It's been ages.

I did check pretty regularly with my UltimateTV box though as it had a really annoying LED that stayed lit 24X7 when you had messages. Didn't mean I read them though


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## HD AV (Nov 22, 2006)

My apology for Caps on every word. I typed in all caps and it posted capitalizing each word. Go back a couple of pages from my incensed post and you can read what set me off. I'm not name calling, those responsible know who they are.

IMO, the average person without any special interest/background in electronic equipment is not at fault for not understanding NTSC, ATSC, Digital TV, HD TV and the differences. Many do not even know which input to connect the cable to, Antenna or CATV (If the set has a QAM (oh, what the heck is that?) tuner. It is the fault of the industry, salespeople, and content providers for not explaining the features/capabilities of the TV in a way that is understood by the majority of uninformed consumers. We are fortunate that we all find this interesting, understand it, and are able to help those that do not. But to denigrate those who only want to purchase a common item (a new TV and/or DVR) they expect, because of what they have heard or been told, will provide HD and they don't know any different, is just plain wrong. They don't have to know how a fluorescent light bulb works, just that it provides light when they turn it on.


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

HD AV said:


> My apology for Caps on every word. I typed in all caps and it posted capitalizing each word. Go back a couple of pages from my incensed post and you can read what set me off. I'm not name calling, those responsible know who they are.
> 
> IMO, the average person without any special interest/background in electronic equipment is not at fault for not understanding NTSC, ATSC, Digital TV, HD TV and the differences. Many do not even know which input to connect the cable to, Antenna or CATV (If the set has a QAM (oh, what the heck is that?) tuner. It is the fault of the industry, salespeople, and content providers for not explaining the features/capabilities of the TV in a way that is understood by the majority of uninformed consumers. We are fortunate that we all find this interesting, understand it, and are able to help those that do not. But to denigrate those who only want to purchase a common item (a new TV and/or DVR) they expect, because of what they have heard or been told, will provide HD and they don't know any different, is just plain wrong. They don't have to know how a fluorescent light bulb works, just that it provides light when they turn it on.


I agree. PVR's, DVR's etc. are no longer novelties, they have been in the mainstream for a long time. Like it or not, they are not just sold to "techies" but are also sold to the general public. They sit on a shelf for the general public to buy and the box does not read "For techies only". The burden of making sure it works as advertised does not lie with the customer, it lies with the advertisor. The condescending notion that only so-called technical persons who are aware of pc forums and internet sites should own one is not an opinion I share.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Plus, when you add the use of all of the acronyms here, couple that with the attacks that can happen, who new to this forum really wants to risk making a post?

Right now, IMO, this isn't a newbie friendly forum nor a non-techy friendly forum. Even if a newb found this and look around I'm sure they wouldn't post for fear of being attacked and/or ridiculed.

Also, IMO, this changed since the addition of the HR20.


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## HD AV (Nov 22, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Plus, when you add the use of all of the acronyms here, couple that with the attacks that can happen, who new to this forum really wants to risk making a post?
> 
> Right now, IMO, this isn't a newbie friendly forum nor a non-techy friendly forum. Even if a newb found this and look around I'm sure they wouldn't post for fear of being attacked and/or ridiculed.
> 
> Also, IMO, this changed since the addition of the HR20.


Wollfpack,
I agree and we all should try to remedy this situation. The HR20 has managed to strain many persons patience and humility and many newb's probably don't ask questions for fear of being made to feel stupid. There are no stupid questions when you are attempting to learn.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Maybe I haven't looked at enough messages here, but my opinion is that DBSTalk is one of the most civilized and friendly Internet forums to visit.

I've seen very little flaming and much helpful advice here. I made a slight mistake in one post and received a polite "are you sure" question in response.

Bill


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HD AV said:


> Wollfpack,
> I agree and we all should try to remedy this situation. The HR20 has managed to strain many persons patience and humility and many newb's probably don't ask questions for fear of being made to feel stupid. There are no stupid questions when you are attempting to learn.


Maybe we can all try to speak a little more "blonde" so those that "don't know" can get some idea. Just a thought, & I'm a blonde.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> Maybe I haven't looked at enough messages here, but my opinion is that DBSTalk is one of the most civilized and friendly Internet forums to visit.
> I've seen very little flaming and much helpful advice here. I made a slight mistake in one post and received a polite "are you sure" question in response.
> Bill


In general, I would agree, but there have been times that....
We all could try harder...


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## HD AV (Nov 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Maybe we can all try to speak a little more "blonde" so those that "don't know" can get some idea. Just a thought, & I'm a blonde.


So am I except that it's turned white now.:lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HD AV said:


> So am I except that it's turned white now.:lol:


I guess it comes down to your "roots".


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## wakajawaka (Sep 27, 2006)

HD AV said:


> My apology for Caps on every word. I typed in all caps and it posted capitalizing each word. Go back a couple of pages from my incensed post and you can read what set me off. I'm not name calling, those responsible know who they are.
> 
> IMO, the average person without any special interest/background in electronic equipment is not at fault for not understanding NTSC, ATSC, Digital TV, HD TV and the differences. Many do not even know which input to connect the cable to, Antenna or CATV (If the set has a QAM (oh, what the heck is that?) tuner. It is the fault of the industry, salespeople, and content providers for not explaining the features/capabilities of the TV in a way that is understood by the majority of uninformed consumers. We are fortunate that we all find this interesting, understand it, and are able to help those that do not. But to denigrate those who only want to purchase a common item (a new TV and/or DVR) they expect, because of what they have heard or been told, will provide HD and they don't know any different, is just plain wrong. They don't have to know how a fluorescent light bulb works, just that it provides light when they turn it on.


Caveat Emptor

The fault lies squarely on the consumer. It's not that difficult to do a little research to become an informed consumer. It has nothing to do with the industry. There are plenty of resources available including print publications and the internet. If a consumer buys ANYTHING without being informed and then *****es about not understanding how to use it or not getting the full benefit of the product, it's their fault. That's not denigration, that's just life.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

wakajawaka said:


> Caveat Emptor
> 
> The fault lies squarely on the consumer. It's not that difficult to do a little research to become an informed consumer. It has nothing to do with the industry. There are plenty of resources available including print publications and the internet. If a consumer buys ANYTHING without being informed and then *****es about not understanding how to use it or not getting the full benefit of the product, it's their fault. That's not denigration, that's just life.


"Caveat Emptor" is not the law in america, hasn't been for about 100 years.


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

NYSmoker said:


> I think a manual redo would be in order considering how many errors there are in it.


Problem is .. MOST people don't even crack the spine of a manual! I'd rather they spend their time trying to get this DVR to work properly.


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## wakajawaka (Sep 27, 2006)

raott said:


> "Caveat Emptor" is not the law in america, hasn't been for about 100 years.


When it comes to a defective product, that's correct, I was referring to knowledge about the how the product functions and how to get the most out of it. It most definitley applies.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

wakajawaka said:


> When it comes to a defective product, that's correct, I was referring to knowledge about the how the product functions and how to get the most out of it. It most definitley applies.


Yep, I agree with that.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Maybe we can all try to speak a little more "blonde" so those that "don't know" can get some idea. Just a thought, & I'm a blonde.


I don't understand what you mean....?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

NFLnut said:


> Problem is .. MOST people don't even crack the spine of a manual! I'd rather they spend their time trying to get this DVR to work properly.


But those who do get wrong info. Plus, if the manual says I can record 2 SAT shows and 1 OTA at the same time, and the manual isn't corrected it's time to sue.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

wakajawaka said:


> When it comes to a defective product, that's correct, I was referring to knowledge about the how the product functions and how to get the most out of it. It most definitley applies.


And there starts the discussion as to the status of the HR20. Is it a defective product? I would vote yes as is the R15.

They don't work as advertised and they don't work as designed.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm asking, let's swerve away from that well-trodden territory. I will agree with the following - the manual is defective and should be reprinted. The customer service experience is flawed. A lot of people didn't know what they were getting into. That's all I'll say, because I hope we're all past the "POS" discussion point.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I've never used that term to refer to the HR20 or R15. Yet, if some newb ventures by and uses that term, or any of it's cousins, let's be kind. If folks that have used that term before do it again and again, let's report the post and give the moderators a chance to handle it.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> They don't work as advertised and they don't work as designed.


I suspect you actually have to *own* or *use* an HR20 to viably make that claim one way or the other. 

I do, and it works great. Many, many others have posted the same. The majority of users have never even posted at all. Perhaps we can now avoid going around this circle again for the 2000th time. :beatdeadhorse:

For those of you who are National Lampoon European Vacation fans, here's the point where Clark would probably say "Big Ben".  :lol:


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

:nono2:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

To new folks, Jump in the water's great -->









It sometimes gets tough, but the majority of people on this forum do want to help.


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> But those who do get wrong info. Plus, if the manual says I can record 2 SAT shows and 1 OTA at the same time, and the manual isn't corrected it's time to sue.


It's time to sue because you can't record 3 shows at once? Do you mean sue as in file a lawsuit? As in you want monetary or other compensation? I sincerely hope you're making a joke.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

KurtV said:


> It's time to sue because you can't record 3 shows at once? Do you mean sue as in file a lawsuit? As in you want monetary or other compensation? I sincerely hope you're making a joke.


Joke, but it's well past time there's a R15 and HR20 manual that's correct.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Joke, but it's well past time there's a R15 and HR20 manual that's correct.


I heartily second that, 100%. Information is power - come on DirecTV, reprint the manuals - at least for new purchases - and enable messages.

Wolffpack, I didn't mean to imply that you personally would head toward the POS rant territory, only that others without such a keen perspective might. I certainly meant no offense.


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Joke, but it's well past time there's a R15 and HR20 manual that's correct.


I apologize for assuming the worst about your post. Being a sarcastic SOB myself, I should have given you the benefit of my doubt.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

KurtV said:


> I apologize for assuming the worst about your post. Being a sarcastic SOB myself, I should have given you the benefit of my doubt.


No problem, it's hard to remember to put "" in every post. :sure:

I've been half expecting DTV to ask the CE crowd to start rewriting the manuals between CEs. :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> No problem, it's hard to remember to put "" in every post. :sure:
> 
> I've been half expecting DTV to ask the CE crowd to start rewriting the manuals between CEs. :lol:


Watch out, there will be a poll on it...:lol:


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