# HR24-200 Sibilance



## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

I am a fringe high-end audiophile cursed with really sensitive ears. Let's not stoop to the cheap shots and focus instead on solving an issue.

I have a new HR24-200 with a severe sibilance issue. Connecting the HR24-200 to the Samsung 650 series TV via a BetterCables HDMI cable.

Swapping the BetterCables with a Monster Cable 1.3a compatible improved but did not eliminate this issue. 

This is the only signal source with this problem (BluRay, streaming audio, analog sources are all perfect).

Has anyone else noticed this extreme exaggeration of SSSSSS sounds regardless of channel from the HR24-200? If so, what did you do to eliminate it?


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

If you are using the TV speakers, try adjusting your EQ since there are no adjustments in the HR receivers.


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks for the thought but my system is not connected in this manner.

Here's the scheme:

HR24-200>HDMI>Samsung 650>RCA>Preamp>RCA>Power Amp>Speakers

I do not have a digital optical input on the Samsung TV or the Preamp.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

My Samsung LN46A650 has an Equalizer.
Menu, Sound, Equalizer


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

When running the outputs through the RCA jacks, the EQ in the 650 series is defeated. EQ works with the built-in speakers only.

Tested absolute electrical phase of the receiver and outboard LNB power supply just now. Receiver was fine but the outboard PS was wrong. After correcting it, there was no audible improvement.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

inline_phil said:


> Thanks for the thought but my system is not connected in this manner.
> 
> Here's the scheme:
> 
> ...


We run both our systems by running video direct to the TV and an Optical or Digital coax from the receiver to the Yamaha AV receiver.
The sound is way better than using the red and white connectors.

Have you tried bypassing the TV and run the red and white cables directly to the Preamp from the HR24 ?
All outputs are live all the time on the HR24.


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

Not yet, but I plan to. Watcing thw WV game now and my wife is a huge fan. I'd risk...well you get the iedea. Stay tuned.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

I hear that !
LOL


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

Tried swapping the audio cables and comparing the two. Results were this: sibilance persisted in both cases.

This I presume is the last ghasp at rectifying this issue from an external approach.

Any chances of someone having a schematic for this beast?


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

"inline_phil" said:


> When running the outputs through the RCA jacks, the EQ in the 650 series is defeated. EQ works with the built-in speakers only.
> 
> Tested absolute electrical phase of the receiver and outboard LNB power supply just now. Receiver was fine but the outboard PS was wrong. After correcting it, there was no audible improvement.


Just as a point of reference, what happens if you use the TV's built-in speakers and adjust the EQ then? Does that resolve the issue?

- Merg


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Are you hearing the hissing only from the tv or through your amp also? I'm confused as to why you have your connections as they are. I'm assuming you are not running the rest of your audio connections through your tv, so why are you using the Samsung to route the audio for the HR24? Try going directly to the pre/power amp from the HR24 and see if that helps.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

phil

Have you gone into Menu, Settings, Audio and turned Dolby Digital to OFF and see how that sounds ?


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

inline_phil said:


> Thanks for the thought but my system is not connected in this manner.
> 
> Here's the scheme:
> 
> ...


As another audiofool, why are you going through your TV? Is it just for the volume control? Do you have a remote controlled volume control on the preamp you could use instead?

I think *jimmie57* is onto some things.

1) If you can, go digital out from your receiver to the preamp. Bypass the television and stay in the digital realm. You probably won't have as many lip sync issues this way, too. This would be a lot simpler signal path with less chance of problems.

2) If you can't stay digital from the DVR to the preamp, at least bypass the television if you can, that is, if you don't need its volume control.

3) Make sure your receiver is switched out of Dolby Digital to PCM. You aren't getting Dolby Digital out, anyway, going with your analog feed.

Televisions are notorious for having terrible audio stages. I've got to think your problem lies there. Do what you have to do to get it out of the system. Even if your preamp isn't remote controllable (many high end ones aren't), you can at least test this theory by temporarily running an RCA from the DVR into the preamp and see if your sibilance issues go away.

Until then, you have my sympathy.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

inline_phil said:


> I am a fringe high-end audiophile





inline_phil said:


> HR24-200>HDMI>Samsung 650>RCA>Preamp>RCA>Power Amp>Speakers


FAIL


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

spartanstew said:


> FAIL


Yeah, that's looks against OP self characterization:
HR24-200>*HDMI>*Samsung 650*>RCA*>Preamp>RCA>Power Amp>Speakers

It would be good to know what is "Preamp" and what is "Power Amp". Perhaps what is used on far end: "Speakers" ?


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

I would bet that not many HR24 users are using the analog outputs from the DVR. Most of use use a digital output, either HDMI or optical. It is entirely possible that there is something wrong with the analog output, either in general, or on his specific unit. The obvious recommendation, as several have pointed out, is to switch to a digital connection directly to the preamp. We need to have more information from the OP with regards to the capabilities of the preamp--it may not have an available digital input.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

inline_phil said:


> I am a fringe high-end audiophile cursed with really sensitive ears.


If so why use analog audio?

Since you don't say what preamp and power amp you use none of us know if it supports digital. If it does, which I would think a "high-end audiophile" would have a digital AVR, you should run your HDMI to your AVR then to your TV.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

I wish the OP would return to answer some of our questions but I can think of a situation where an audiophile would need the analog out of his DVR. He might be using some old gear for the audio system.

I have a bunch of old audio electronics lying around, including three analog preamps from the 1980s: a Frank Van Alstine modified Dynaco PAS2, a NAD 1300 and a Mark Levinson ML-7. I am an audio pack rat but there are other folks like me. This old gear comes out of my basement storage room every now and then, usually because something breaks in my two channel, vinyl playback system. I could make up an outstanding two channel system for video use with analog equipment I own that rarely gets used. If television is not a big thing for the OP, and for some audiophiles it isn't, he might well use discarded electronics for his TV sound.

None of those 1980s preamps I own have digital inputs or remote controls. That's why he might be running his analog audio through his TV for a remote volume control, and why I asked the questions I did in my post upthread.

Hey, *inline_phil*, come back and tell us what's going on with your system.


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## spacemanrocks (Sep 11, 2012)

My first post yay! 

I just had direct hooked up at my apartment yesterday and love it beyond words. I too noticed this issue on my HR24-200 once the installer left. Currently using a Sony A/V 7.1 receiver and have the HR24, a PS3 and a WDTV Live Hub all hooked up via HDMI. The PS3 and WDTV didn't show the same symptoms, so I went in and switched Dolby Digital off (as was suggested above). Lowered the treble a few points on the A/V receiver for that source and now it sounds beautiful


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

spacemanrocks said:


> My first post yay!
> 
> I just had direct hooked up at my apartment yesterday and love it beyond words. I too noticed this issue on my HR24-200 once the installer left. Currently using a Sony A/V 7.1 receiver and have the HR24, a PS3 and a WDTV Live Hub all hooked up via HDMI. The PS3 and WDTV didn't show the same symptoms, so I went in and switched Dolby Digital off (as was suggested above). Lowered the treble a few points on the A/V receiver for that source and now it sounds beautiful


A few yearsssss ago we had a "Sssssibilance" thread. We had a lot of fun with that. Don't remember what it wasssss all about, but if you ssssssearch for it, you may find help there. Persssssonlally, I've never has a sssssibilance problem with my 24-200ssssss, both gone now, but the sssssound was perfect running thru one of my ssssssound sssssystems.

To quote *Harsh*, "My precioussssssss."

Rich


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

inline_phil said:


> I am a fringe high-end audiophile cursed with really sensitive ears. Let's not stoop to the cheap shots and focus instead on solving an issue.
> 
> I have a new HR24-200 with a severe sibilance issue. Connecting the HR24-200 to the Samsung 650 series TV via a BetterCables HDMI cable...Has anyone else noticed this extreme exaggeration of SSSSSS sounds regardless of channel from the HR24-200? If so, what did you do to eliminate it?


First, you can assume that anyone who questions your definition of yourself (fringe high-end, sensitive ears) based on what equipment you own has deeper issues and displays their own ignorance by making such a tenuous connection (IOW, consider the source). If it sounds right to you, then it's right for you, period (ignore them). Also, we can only assume that you are indeed such a person. If you were not such a person, there certainly would be a low probability of you merely thinking you were such a person. Rest assured, Phil, the rest of us are with you; we'll begin by not questioning your premise.

I will say this; your ears are not so sensitive or golden that you are imagining sibilance or perceiving it where the rest of us just don't. You do have a real sibilance issue here. That you may have sensitive golden ears is really beside the point; it just makes the fact that there really is sibilance that much more annoying for you, likely.

Sibilance. There are really two definitions; one would be an unusually higher frequency peak in the "s" and "z" consonant range of human speech, compared to the rest of the band. The other is actual distortion at that frequency that sounds very similar, because there is a lot of aggregate energy from the distortion that manifests directly at that same frequency. Most electronic sibilance is of the second type (dropped mics can do this), but it sounds like what you are experiencing is of the first type. So it might aid you, and you have the ears for it, to listen closely to see if there is actual distortion there, or just an abrupt level change there.

Equalization is at best a workaround. It is best to fix the issue at the source. You would also need a 32-band EQ to be able to notch that frequency effectively (and you can't EQ actual distortion, only minimize it). a 12-band or less will distort the response too much for "golden ears". I own a 32, but good luck finding something that can be used in the digital domain or for 5.1. I don't think EQ is your anwer.

The other thing is the nature of digital audio. Once digitized, and assuming all parts are working properly, digital audio can't possibly become distorted without performing math on it; it is completely represented by binary coefficients, and they don't change unless we change them on purpose. Of course if you send digital audio where 0 dBFS is calibrated in the target system at one level into a destination system where it is calibrated at a different level (and that is technically a change in the math), distortion can occur.

But that does not seem to be the problem here either.

Sibilance or any other distortion in properly designed and working digital audio is rare, indeed; that is usually an analog issue (or issssssue, as you are unfortunately used to hearing it. Sorry, couldn't resist). But the critical thing there is "properly...working"; I suspect things are not working as they should, most likely in the DVR, and when things are not working properly, all bets are off and all of "what should be" regarding digital audio is completely out the window.

Audio arrives in your DVR (for HD sources) typically as AC3. It is then decompressed back to PCM for HDMI, I think, and DAC'ed for analog out. If the analog is good, that might point to the AC3 decoding in the DVR as the problem, or not. If both are bad, that points to either a problem in the DVR or the AVR (you could try the HDMI direct into a TV to eliminate the AVR), with that problem most likely close to the DAC or decoder (it may even be the same chip). That all has to work right for things to sound right, and there really isn't much more that could possibly go wrong.

So, the smart money here is on a defective HR24. There is a small possibility of simple idiosyncratic incompatibility between the DVR and AVR, but again, those would be the longer odds.

Were it me, and without more info, I would have the DVR exchanged.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Looks like his golden ears become adapted to the hissing and he is satisfied to that level when our mumbling is not interesting to him anymore.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

spacemanrocks said:


> My first post yay!
> 
> I just had direct hooked up at my apartment yesterday and love it beyond words. I too noticed this issue on my HR24-200 once the installer left. Currently using a Sony A/V 7.1 receiver and have the HR24, a PS3 and a WDTV Live Hub all hooked up via HDMI. The PS3 and WDTV didn't show the same symptoms, so I went in and switched Dolby Digital off (as was suggested above). Lowered the treble a few points on the A/V receiver for that source and now it sounds beautiful


What kind of TV do you have, a Sony or a Samsung? You shouldn't have to switch off DD to get the sound corrected.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Looks like his golden ears become adapted to the hissing and he is satisfied to that level when our mumbling is not interesting to him anymore.


I love it when ssssomeone sssstartssss a thread and jusssst sssstopssss possssting.

Seriously, I find this behavior a bit strange.

Rich


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

i everyone 
doing this from my phone so ill be brief

sibilance is still there and i have tried many things but not turning off dolby.

o answer equip qs, preempt= dared tube analog in only
amp=Macintosh 2100 solid state
speakers=Bozak 302a completely redesigned (isobaric workers outward mid&sweet&new supertweet box) with drastically altered network
power conditioner 
a lot of hand tweaking in everything

i too believe the issue is the dvr but have no optical in to test idea
feeding analog to the preempt yielded no improvement 

still hoping to find a schematic for the dvr and start hacking
anyone have a schematic ?


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## Jacob Braun (Oct 6, 2011)

Your HR24 is almost certainly a leased receiver. There are no schematics available to the public and those are quite difficult to get into. Leased means it is DirecTV's property, not yours.
I was curious if you were still running the RCAs from the TV, or if you switched them to come from the receiver to your amp. That could potentially help.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

inline_phil said:


> i everyone
> doing this from my phone so ill be brief
> 
> sibilance is still there and i have *tried many things but not turning off dolby*.
> ...


If you tune to an SD channel do you still get this problem ?
They are not Dolby Digital 5.1 like the HD channels are.


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

Here is a link to a photo of my system. This should answer a lot of people's questions.
http://audiophile-musings.blogspot.com/2012/02/your-stereos-missing-component.html#!/2012/02/your-stereos-missing-component.html

I understand that the equipment is leased.

The Dared preamp has no digital input so let's move on from there.

Yes, I have tried the direct analog feed to the Dared and the problem persists. the problem persists in no other attached peripheral, only the DRV regardless of source.

My Blu-ray is attached in an identical manner (HDMI) and the issue is not present.

My WD-TVLive media streamer is also attached exactly as the DVR (HDMI) and the issue is not present.

Other direct analog sources to the preamp are turntable (Pinoeer PL-L1000a), cassette (Nakamichi 680ZX), and FM tuner (Magnum Dynalab FT-11) also do not experience this issue.

So, IMHO, the issue is the DVR since is the only connected device with the sibilance issue. I can djust the Dolby setting but I am not convinced that this is where the source of the problem lies since two other sources are connected in an identical manner and do not have a sibilance issue.

Has anyone tried different HDMI cables?


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

So, IMHO, the issue is the DVR since is the only connected device with the sibilance issue. *I can djust the Dolby setting but I am not convinced that this is where the source of the problem lies since two other sources are connected in an identical manner and do not have a sibilance issue*.

This takes maybe 5 minutes tops.
Menu, Settings, Audio, Digital Dolby, OFF

If there is not difference repeat and choose ON.


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

Checked settings on the DVR and Dolby was already OFF as were settings for Sound Effects.

Checked settings on the TV. Internal speakers are OFF and the set bypasses user settings when speakers are OFF. Turned the speakers ON and checked the settings. Dolby was already OFF. Changed setting to ON (yuk!). Turned Dolby back to OFF. Turned OFF internal speakers.

Called DirecTV and they are coming out Tuesday.

Are there hidden service menus that I could access to check/change the DVR's audio settings?


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

inline_phil said:


> Checked settings on the DVR and Dolby was already OFF as were settings for Sound Effects.
> 
> Checked settings on the TV. Internal speakers are OFF and the set bypasses user settings when speakers are OFF. Turned the speakers ON and checked the settings. Dolby was already OFF. Changed setting to ON (yuk!). Turned Dolby back to OFF. Turned OFF internal speakers.
> 
> ...


Thanks for checking the Dolby Digital . When the Dolby Digital was OFF in the DVR and ON in the TV that might cause a problem. 
IF Dolby Digital was ON in the TV settings I would think Dolby Digital would be ON in the DVR. They should Match when testing.

The Sound Effects basically is nothing more than when you push a wrong button on the remote it makes a "bonk" sound to alert you that you did something wrong.


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

The DirecTV technician came out and much to my surprise head exactly what I described. I asked if there were hidden menus that he could check and his answer was no. He checked his inventory trying to find a different manufacturer/model we could test swap and alas there was none.

So the plan is this: he gave me his direct number and I will call next month to see if a new pallet of DVRs has arrived. When one comes in and it is not an HR24, we will swap it out to see if it helps. He asked to hear something through my media streamer in comparison and he picked out of all things "Hells Bells" by AC/DC. Not what I would have chosen but it was his request. He was indeed impressed at the extreme detailing of the sound through the streamer but sad at his inability to resolve the problem thorugh the DRV.

In his own words, he knows that he will never have another service call lke this one nor will he be able to explain to others what he so clearly and easily heard. He summed it up succinctly like this: Part of driving a Formula One racecar for a living is the cost of having to drive a mere mortal's Ferrari to work. I think it more like driving a VW to work, but hey, such is life.

So the answer is that there is most likley no answer (I am not encouraged with the option of even a different model). I must put up with mediocrity in the audio playback design and when I want to hear quality audio I'll have to flip to the over-the-air broadcasts.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

inline_phil said:


> The DirecTV technician came out and much to my surprise head exactly what I described. I asked if there were hidden menus that he could check and his answer was no. He checked his inventory trying to find a different manufacturer/model we could test swap and alas there was none.
> 
> So the plan is this: he gave me his direct number and I will call next month to see if a new pallet of DVRs has arrived. When one comes in and it is not an HR24, we will swap it out to see if it helps...
> 
> ...


Nuh-uh. Bad plan. You should not have to live with this problem, number one; the rest of us are not living with it. Number two, he had absolutely no other DVRs on his truck that you could swap and try? and Number three, you have to wait for him to get one? Sounds like the old Billie Holiday song, "Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me."


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

Did I miss something? Has it been determined that this is an HR-24 issue, and not a unit specific issue? If not, I certainly wouldn't wait for a non-HR-24 DVR to become available before testing a different unit.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Bill Broderick said:


> Did I miss something? Has it been determined that this is an HR-24 issue, and not a unit specific issue? If not, I certainly wouldn't wait for a non-HR-24 DVR to become available before testing a different unit.


Agreed, I think it's his sound system. Old electronics are still usable and put out fine sound quality, but I'd be looking at a new receiver just for TV viewing if I were him. That was my first thought when I read his first post and nothing has changed my mind.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TomCat said:


> Nuh-uh. Bad plan. You should not have to live with this problem, number one; the rest of us are not living with it. Number two, he had absolutely no other DVRs on his truck that you could swap and try? and Number three, you have to wait for him to get one? Sounds like the old Billie Holiday song, "Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me."


Agreed. I'll bet any HR would have produced that ssssssibilance....:lol:

Rich


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

inline_phil said:


> So the answer is that there is most likley no answer (I am not encouraged with the option of even a different model). I must put up with mediocrity in the audio playback design and when I want to hear quality audio I'll have to flip to the over-the-air broadcasts.


Have you thought about using a better D to A converter in your system?

The analog outputs are a low priority output on a DirecTV receiver, almost never used for primary sound. How about using something relatively inexpensive like a Musical Fidelity V-DAC or a Pro-ject DAC Box S FL on the digital output of your receiver instead? You are at the mercy of what must be a $1.99 D/A chip inside the HR24, and even with a different model, that won't change. Nose around Audiogon and I bet you can even find a cheap, used Peachtree DACiT. That's a real nice D to A. Obviously make sure you switch the receiver over to the PCM output. These D/As won't know Dolby Digital from a hole in the ground.

Just a suggestion.

I've been an audiofool for years. Right now my listening system has a VPI Classic 2 turntable with a Dynavector 20x2 cartridge, a Plinius 9200 integrated amp, and B&W 804 speakers. Next year I'd like to add John Curl's latest phono stage, the Parasound Halo JC 3 and a better cartridge, maybe a Clearaudio Talismann. Either that, or I'll trade the B&Ws for a pair of the new Magnepan MG 3.7 speakers. I've figured out how to set them up in my room where they would sound awesome. I love Maggies. The only thing stopping me is they would be big and out in the middle of the room. I would first cut out some cardboard versions and see if I could live with them dominating my living room.

I understand your pain. Once you experience sound on this level, it's tough to go back. I actually had to back away from owning audiophile gear for 25 years until I was mature enough to enjoy it even with its flaws. It's only recently I fully got back into the gear. Before, in the 1980s, when I'd play my high end system for someone, they'd say it sounded awesome but I'd be in pain, saying, "Can't you hear the slightly butterscotchy midrange?" or something silly like that. Now when the sound isn't up to par, I can just go, meh. A couple of nights ago, I was listening the the first Return To Forever record, Chick Corea's _Light As A Feather_ album. Deliberately mixed into Chick's electric piano is a boatload of ugly, 1970s distortion. In my past life, I would have never made it to the end of the album side. I would have rejected it, screeching, "What were they thinking?" This time, I heard Airto's percussion instead and went, "Great jazz." To the Average Joe, that may not seem like a big thing. To an audiophile, it is a trick and a half.

Good luck!


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

I dont have what I consider an audiophile level system, but I've got some pretty decent gear, and I hear none of that either...

Of course, I would never connect my dvr through the output of my tv to my audio gear either....that just seems completely bass-ackwards to how an audiophile would do it. :lol:

Also, an audiophile has a separate music system from his HT system,and they do not cross into each other. Quite truthfully, the audio being sent by D* is not anywhere near audiophile quality, so it seems like this is a fool's quest. In HD, it's heavily compressed AC-3, much more so that any dvd or BD disk you would rent.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

CCarncross said:


> an audiophile has a separate music system from his HT system


True, but how do you know this isn't the case? If all I wanted was two channel analog audio, I could today set up a system with a Mark Levinson ML-7 preamp, a NAD 2600 power amp and a pair of KEF 102.3 speakers, all of which are lying around my house. The KEFs are actually the main speakers in my home theater system. The other pieces are sitting, unused, in my basement.

It may well be the OP has another, main audio system that I'd really like to hear.

I do agree with one thing touched on in your post. I made the point upthread already but I must do it again: I can't help but think the OP is making a huge mistake using his TV for a volume control. The audio sections of televisions are jokes. I've yet to find one that was worth more than a two day old can of skunked beer. The OP seems to be handy, asking now twice for the schematic for the HR24. He can buy in kit form a remote controlled volume control that would use much higher quality parts than the junk that's in his TV. I would definitely remove the TV's volume control from the system if it was me.


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

There seems to be some confusion about how the rig is connected. I use the HDMI To pass digital audio to the TV DACs then the analog output stage of the TV (not the same cheap section that dries the TV speakers but the line outputs). This is a fixed gain output from which other sources are selected via the TV source. See below as to why I believe this is NOT the source of the problem.

I am using this configuration to select what I call elevator music since everything connected to it is either compressed or of non-high end quality and there is no point. (Why would one waste time and money buying an outboard DAC for MP3 quality?)

I agree that the line sstage in the TV is not esoteric but it has no difficulties handling the other sources AND there is no sibilance in any of the other sources. Problem continues to point to the HR24.

It may have been a missed opportunity but we discussed many things, including swapping one to try and it was my call not to do this (I do not believe that the problem is with one HR24 but with them all). Even though you do not hear what I do may mean that your system is not as revealing as mine and as someone else said they had to abandon the high end because of the addiction effect higher and higher quality equipment has on lowering the quantity of acceptable source material.

I do not consider DirecTV to have audiophile quality signals nor do I expect their engineering department in delegating funds to design a power supply that would cost three times what their entire DVR sells for retail. I just hoped that someone else had run into this and knew of a quick fix, but apparently no one has. I was hoping that someone may know of how to access the service menus to see what was adjustable within the unit but even this technician did not and no one has volunteered this either.

So I will wait patiently and see what else I can determine externally resisting the urge to pop the lid and take a peek under the hood. It sounds like a few things to me without knowing anything about the design: 1) weak power supply, 2) ground loops, 3) oscillator instability, or 4) some cheap signal path coupling capacitor (although with a digital signal this is least likely). I've seen too many PC boards to know that budget engineers know anything about these two simple issues, and the HR2 falls into this category.

So folks, I am going to live with it for now. I appreciate the suggestions but I am not convinced that anything suggested would make any difference in its sound. Until next month...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I would connect a scope and will see by own eyes ...


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

I was hoping to play pink noise through two sources and using my RTA to demonstrate a measurable effect to the technician but since he verified he heard the issue and he could not tell me how to access the same FLAC file we could not do this.

What would you look for with the scope?


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

inline_phil said:


> It may have been a missed opportunity but we discussed many things, including swapping one to try and it was my call not to do this (I do not believe that the problem is with one HR24 but with them all).


You may well be right but how did you determine the problem is with all HR24s and not just yours? As you have noted, there hasn't been a general outcry against the sibilance you hear in your system. There are some very picky people on this forum. Why has no one else complained? You aren't the only audiophile here.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

inline_phil said:


> I was hoping to play pink noise through two sources and using my RTA to demonstrate a measurable effect to the technician but since he verified he heard the issue and he could not tell me how to access the same FLAC file we could not do this.
> 
> What would you look for with the scope?


Everything, I would also run FFT on it (it's a digital scope) and get all freqs going thru.


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## Dylan (Oct 17, 2007)

I'm pretty doubtful that the problem can be corrected. What could the DVR be doing to the signal while it's digital to cause extra sibilance? Maybe recompressing or transcoding? Not something you can fix or will be different in another unit.

I suspect you just aren't going to be happy with DirecTV's audio on your equipment. Your description sounds to me like a complaint about compression. I think your best bet is going to be to apply EQ (like the THX roll-off) to make it more pleasing.


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## Dylan (Oct 17, 2007)

inline_phil said:


> Yes, I have tried the direct analog feed to the Dared and the problem persists. the problem persists in no other attached peripheral, only the DRV regardless of source.
> ...
> Has anyone tried different HDMI cables?


You've tested that the problem remains when you connect the DVR to your preamp with analog cables. This eliminates the HDMI cable or anything involving your TV from being the cause.

If you want to compensate for the problem, downstream EQ or processing will be more predictable and effective than cable changes.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

Rich said:


> Agreed, I think it's his sound system.


That wasn't the point that I was trying to make.



Carl Spock said:


> You may well be right but how did you determine the problem is with all HR24s and not just yours?


This is the point that I was trying to make.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

inline_phil said:


> There seems to be some confusion about how the rig is connected. I use the HDMI To pass digital audio to the TV DACs then the analog output stage of the TV (not the same cheap section that dries the TV speakers but the line outputs). This is a fixed gain output from which other sources are selected via the TV source. See below as to why I believe this is NOT the source of the problem.
> 
> I am using this configuration to select what I call elevator music since everything connected to it is either compressed or of non-high end quality and there is no point. (Why would one waste time and money buying an outboard DAC for MP3 quality?)


A good DAC might well eliminate your nagging problem, that's why. And a well recorded, well processed MP3 feed can sound just fine for TV. Why do you think the line output isn't as cheap as the speaker outputs?

You have tried, no, hearing the sound through the TV speakers? (shudder.)

You have swapped your HDMI cables AND ports on the TV?


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

inline_phil does have a point about TV sound.

In general, it is very compressed and with poor response at the frequency extremes.

But this is a problem of the source, not the format. I've heard great sound on some programs. Palladia generally has pretty good sound as everything isn't boosted to 0 VU all the time. There is dynamic range on many musical events on Palladia. Also, my local PBS feed can sound very good. Again, it's not driven as hard as a network channel is.

We should not forget that the PCM output of a DirecTV piece is 16 bit 44.1k, the same as a CD, and a farsight better than a MP3.

I agree with you, Laxguy. Especially if he is having problems, I wouldn't discount the possible improvement a good D/A converter can bring. I assume his TV has a Toslink optical output. He'd have to check, but that may well put out the digital stream that is coming from his HDMI inputs.

There is one remaining problem here. Putting a D/A after the television would eliminate his volume control. He's back to needing one. inline-phil, here's one by Keene I've looked at for years. You'd need to buy an American standard wall wart power supply but that should be under $10.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

inline_phil said:


> sibilance is still there and i have tried many things but not turning off dolby.


There's not much point in leaving it on if you're going to use a simple stereo connection. Dolby signals in the HR2x (and most all modern source devices) travel uniquely over the digital outputs and the RCA outputs (from the DVR or TV) are probably some sort of unencoded analog mash-up of that signal.

GIGO is very much in play here. Putting a piano wire and a couple of cans (the TV DAC) between the source and the pre-amp is unlikely to be satisfactory.

As a check, you might want to see if the RCA outputs of the DVR sound any better than those of the TV. It is important to figure out if the sound is being colored by the TV so you know where to concentrate.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Carl Spock said:


> inline_phil does have a point about TV sound.
> 
> In general, it is very compressed and with poor response at the frequency extremes.
> 
> ...


Well, Carl, since it is no longer 1998, and speaking as a long-time broadcasting Engineer I would have a very hard time agreeing with this generalization. It may apply to some lower-rated channels with low budgets or to SD-only channels that have not upgraded to digital audio chains, but I think the tendency even there is that things have improved greatly over the last few years.

For medium-to-large market broadcast and for 95% of cable networks audio is sent as AC-3 and is likely processed through an all-digital chain prior to that. If not, it is likely processed in a high-quality analog equipment at certain stages. In either case, frequency response is characteristically flat between about 50 to 15K, and in most cases well beyond that.

Also, one of the benefits of digital delivery is that the dynamic range is much greater, and that there is not the need for the conventional level-compression that we saw with analog TV or cable. For most stations and networks, final processing is done very intelligently and effectively, and much, much better than it was just a decade ago.

Digital also allows us to not use compression as a tool to keep levels constant, which was the poorly-implemented goal during the analog era. New equipment uses sophisticated techniques such as BS.1770-2, which aims to keep dialog at the same level, and is exceptionally effective at doing just that. The implementation of the CALM act this year coupled with this technology will very-quickly make uneven audio levels a distant memory, while preserving full dynamic range at the same time.

(And if you were actually speaking about _digital _compression rather than dynamic range compression, AC-3/DD is far less compressed than MP3 and has a far better quality than MP3; about the only thing that can beat it, and not by much, is DTS. If you want to hear badly-compressed audio, go to satellite radio or Pandora).

Not all sources live up to these new standards just yet, but the vast majority do. Had you made your statement pre 911, I would have to agree with you. But its 2012, and things have changed greatly, at least for the most part.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

^ I stand corrected. Nice to know the situation has improved that much. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

inline_phil, have I got the deal for you!

(You know how many stereo salesmen it takes to screw in a lightbulb? Three, but that's today only.)

I got an email from Music Direct this afternoon and they have a great selection of the Pro-Ject Box Design units on close-out. One of them has your name on it.

I assume you are familiar with Pro-Ject, the Austrian audiophile turntable manufacturer. They also make the Box Design line, with a bunch of cool, very inexpensive, application specific, problem solving boxes for sale. I just bought the USB D/A to upgrade my computer sound. It's only $119. Unfortunately, not on sale is the Pro-Ject D/A which I recommended upthread. I'd buy one of those, too.

But for you, inline_phil, they have two very inexpensive remote controlled preamps on sale. Here's your opportunity to banish the TV's volume control from your system. I can guarantee either one of these puppies will make your video system sound a lot better. And if it doesn't, Music Direct has a 30 day return policy.

One is just $199 (reg. $350). It has only two inputs but does have a motorized volume control for the remote. The other has four inputs and an electronic volume control. It's only $249 (reg. $500). If you wanted more inputs, go with this one.

Do it, Phil. Buy one of these. The smaller one probably has an Alps volume control in it. It will sonically stomp all over the preamp/volume control built into your TV.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Bump for *inline_phil*: act now or forever hold your piece...

...of plastic remote for your TV to adjust your volume.

The better preamp is now sold out. I was looking at it yesterday to replace a NAD 1300 preamp that's stopped exciting electrons in one channel. I bought the NAD used 15 years ago for $130 so I can't complain. The less expensive preamp is still available.

I got in my USB D/A box. It's about as basic as it gets: a USB port and audio jacks. Not a switch on its metal case. I do like the aluminum faceplate. This piece has heft.

The USB D/A sold out in less than a day. BTW, mine is new. There is a model change going on. It seems the difference between the piece I bought and the new one is purely cosmetic.

I'll let you know how it sounds.


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## inline_phil (Sep 22, 2012)

Folks,

The old DVR was swapped today and it fixed the problem. Regarding the replacement preamps, the Dared I have is a bit nicer than the gear you suggested and it does have an RF (not an IR) remote volume control. Line level from the Samsung goes into this preamp, not the variable. At one time, I owned a Pro-Ject turntable and yes I am familiar with the gear. Nice to know that they are still making strides in the high end.

This technician (another one) was amazed at the difference the new unit made also being able to hear exactly what my complaint was.

I've only been watching/listening for a little over an hour and it sounds pretty decent, *MUCH *better than the old DVR.

Thanks for all of the suggestions and jabs. I am finally happy and that is what matters.

Cheers,

See my eBooks at http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=rastocny

and my blog at http://audiophile-musings.blogspot.com/


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Thanks for the update. Glad changing the receiver fixed your problem. You certainly went thru a lot of trials to find the problem and it was just what you thought in the beginning.
Enjoy.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

I dont remember, but was that the only D* receiver you had at your place, seems like just swapping it out would have been something you could have done on day 1...I dont know what your history was before this thread, upgraded from another model, or were a brand new D* customer etc...I have 3 receivers at my place, so it would be very easy to swap one out if I suspected the problem might be a particular unit and not system-wide.


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