# I Want My Single Live Buffer And I Want It To Work



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

_Before you say anything, yes, I posted this in the 0x145 issues thread. I happen to think that the one-and-only live buffer we have should work and it is important enough to see if it's a wide spread problem._

So, I'm watching the game and my wife walks in and says "Lets watch _Jericho_." I said "OK." It was recorded, so I went to the LIST. Watched about half the episode and returned to live TV. But wait.....

There is no buffer. It just starts when I exited my recording. Well, now I'm MAD.

A few min. later the wife comes back and we start watching the recording again(same one).
Episode over back to live TV. But wait........

THERE IS NO LIVE BUFFER. It just starts when I exited my recording.

Oh look, the Mets are up 3 runs. Lets rewind and find out how. 
*OH WAIT....I CAN'T BECAUSE THERE IS NO BLEEPING LIVE BUFFER!!!*

OK, I'm trying to deal with no DLB. It's been hard but I'll just keep waiting/hoping. 
*DLB ASIDE, I WANT MY BLEEPING SINGLE BLEEPING LIVE BLEEPING BUFFER 
AND I WANT IT TO WORK CORRECTLY!!!!! *

I don't think it unreasonable to expect to have ONE LIVE BUFFER. 
I was actually promised one. D* says I can pause and rewind live TV. 
*WELL....NOT ALWAYS!!!!!
BLEEPING BLEEPITY BLEEP BLEEP!!!!!!!*

*HERE'S HOW IT WENT*.....
The recording was _Jericho_-MPEG4. Started watching it from the LIST at about 8:30pm while it was still recording. At the time I had been watching the Mets game on Ch.625-SD. It was almost/quasi/psudo live because I had previously paused and then caught up during commercials(as close as it gets anyway). About 9:10pm we stopped watching (now nothing is recording) and the Live Buffer starts at 9:10pm. Afew min. later my wife comes back. We go back to the list to watch the rest of _Jericho_. We finish watching at 9:29pm and...yup you guessed it, the buffer starts at 9:29pm.

I have seen this problem before across all the software updates. I had my HR20 installed on 02FEB07 and the first version it had was 0x120. It doesn't happen always and it doesn't seem to have a pattern. I looked for is the show I'm watching currently being recorded: is anything being recorded: local channel, RSN, HD, SD.

I think I can live with the other issues(DLB, well.......) but the live buffer should be *LIVE, ALWAYS, END OF SENTENCE.*

*Specs*:
HR20-700 - 0x145
HDMI to Magnavox 42MF231D/37
Phone line connected
Not networked
BBC's installed
OA antenna(only get 1 channel but hey...)

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I made the following comment in this thread



> I know that we want Dual Live Buffers, but if Live TV isn't working for a Single Buffer, how could we expect it to work to record two buffers?


Perhaps our wish should be for a working SLB.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Also, a similar thing occurred a week back when American Idol stopped recording 7 minutes early. There was no way to go back in time to pick up the 7 minutes that were missed even if you were still on the same channel and within 90-minutes.

It would be nice if the 90-minute Live TV buffer ONLY flushed when there was no other choice (channel change comes to mind).


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

brott said:


> It would be nice if the 90-minute Live TV buffer ONLY flushed when there was no other choice (channel change comes to mind).


That's how it's _supposed_ to work. But there are lots of things (in the HR-20 especially) that don't work the way they're supposed. to. Very frustrating, I agree.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

brott said:


> I made the following comment in this thread
> 
> Perhaps our wish should be for a working SLB.


My problem is, it shouldn't be a problem. That fact that we have to complain about it working is what gets me going. I want DLB but D*'s programmers should get the current buffer working flawlessly first. If nothing else, it is the one thing that should be working flawlessly. It shouldn't need to be talked about this far along.

I don't for a second believe that Tivo is prefect. With that said, what made Tivo work, what made it _the greatest thing since sliced bread_ was buffering live tv. Regardless of what some may say about how the HR20 was marketed or what was promised, BUFFERING LIVE TV is what makes DVR's worth getting. Having as single buffer...one that doesn't always work is like going back to a cable box and a VCR.

Mike


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> I don't think it unreasonable to expect to have ONE LIVE BUFFER.
> I was actually promised one. D* says I can pause and rewind live TV.
> *WELL....NOT ALWAYS!!!!!
> BLEEPING BLEEPITY BLEEP BLEEP!!!!!!!*


Can I nominate MicroBeta for the *"Post of the Year"* award?
reach: 
Very well crafted.
Content is perfecto.
Use of caps and bold in key areas was flawless.
And lots of extra points for style.
The story made me feel like I was in the room with him.
:icon_lol: 
Ohhh, and most of all ... *I agree with him!!!*

I give that post a 9.95 rating.
The only thing it was missing was the :soapbox: smilie.

*Edited to add:*
And the next time I accidentally press the "active" button when I'm trying to hit the "pause" button ... and consequently lose my entire buffer (plus what I was trying to pause to see) ... I'm gonna throw this receiver onto the nearest tollway so the semi's will run it over!!


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Here's how this has played out for me prior to version 0x12a, pretty much every time:

The live buffer would flush if:

SCENARIO 1:
-I was in standby OR watching a recording for over 10 minutes
-During those 10 minutes something else started recording
-The program being recorded was NOT on the channel I was watching. 

SCENARIO 2:
-Instead of tuning to a channel when I want to join "in progress", I go to the list and push play. When the program is over the buffer returns to the channel I was watching when I end the program. 

That used to be a guaranteed prescription for no live buffer. Since version 0x12a I have run into this only sporadically but one of those scenarios must still be present. 

MicroBeta, you did not mention if something else started recording while you were watching the Mets lose (I don't know for certain that they did, it's just a guess). Is it possible? 

Brott, does this fit with your experiences?


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> *Edited to add:*
> And the next time I accidentally press the "active" button when I'm trying to hit the "pause" button ... and consequently lose my entire buffer (plus what I was trying to pause to see) ... I'm gonna throw this receiver onto the nearest tollway so the semi's will run it over!!


You might try checking your horoscope while you're there, though, first!:lol:


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

I honestly see no reason it should ever have to flush the buffer. It should be a continuous FIFO type system that can grow if needed. There is no reason the channel change should flush the buffer, the buffer would just keep rolling along and if you did a rewind it would take you back to whatever was the last thing it saw on the previous channel was. Once it's 90 or 120 or whatever minutes are up it simply dumps whatever the first thing in the buffer is and keeps going on about it's business. Just my thoughts though.


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

Clint Lamor said:


> I honestly see no reason it should ever have to flush the buffer. It should be a continuous FIFO type system that can grow if needed. There is no reason the channel change should flush the buffer, the buffer would just keep rolling along and if you did a rewind it would take you back to whatever was the last thing it saw on the previous channel was. Once it's 90 or 120 or whatever minutes are up it simply dumps whatever the first thing in the buffer is and keeps going on about it's business. Just my thoughts though.


Of course, this would be negated if you switched the channel to a third station...you are actually describing the behaviors of DLB here, Clint. I think the only workaround which would force the HR20 to perform such a task would be to punch record first, THEN change the channel...I guess this is a "Tips & Tricks" solution...but that's all we have in light of a rewrite of code...:nono:


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> I honestly see no reason it should ever have to flush the buffer. It should be a continuous FIFO type system that can grow if needed. There is no reason the channel change should flush the buffer, the buffer would just keep rolling along and if you did a rewind it would take you back to whatever was the last thing it saw on the previous channel was. Once it's 90 or 120 or whatever minutes are up it simply dumps whatever the first thing in the buffer is and keeps going on about it's business. Just my thoughts though.


This is the kind of thinking that got us Overlapping Recordings via 1 tuner instead of 2. Are you sure you want to run the risk of advancing the HR20 beyond Tivo again? 

While I suspect never flushing the buffer might simplify some things and therefore reduce lockups and BSB/BSOD, I wonder if this pushes the I/O capability of the disk drive: 2 LBs, 2 recordings, a VOD download, watching a recording, and an occassional overlapping recording start to add up, given how the LB is arranged today (I think its a circular separate partition on the disk.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

lamontcranston said:


> SCENARIO 2:
> -Instead of tuning to a channel when I want to join "in progress", I go to the list and push play. When the program is over the buffer returns to the channel I was watching when I end the program.


I did pick up Jericho from the list by pushing play. It was about 8:25(about 25 min into the show). Jericho finished at 9pm. Nothing else started recording until 10pm. When we stopped watching Jericho the first time it was after 9pm. A few min. later we started watching Jericho again(from the list) and finished up at 9:29 and still no buffer.



lamontcranston said:


> MicroBeta, you did not mention if something else started recording while you were watching the Mets lose (I don't know for certain that they did, it's just a guess).


BTW, THE METS SWEPT THE WORLD CHAMPION ST LOUIS CARDINALS...........

Mike


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> BTW, THE METS SWEPT THE ST LOUIS...........


:goodjob:


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## PlanetBill (May 8, 2006)

I've had and asked the same as the OP

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=80542


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

While I'm not sure of all the "ins & outs" of it, it doesn't seem to work as it should.
The buffer does "buffer" for 90 min. When I pause & go away longer than 90 min, it will start up again as the buffer gets full [90 min]. So in some ways it is working as it should [90 min of past programing].
Why going in to watch a recording causes the "live buffer" to "dump" doesn't make any sense. The "live" tuner is there still doing its job [like it was recording] & I'm watching a recording [as in record two programs while watching a recording].
I can see why or how it would dump the buffer with a channel change [since the guide info seems to be tied to the buffered program] and it would be nice to have an "oops" grace period for when the users goofs [sits on the remote, or what ever] and presses the wrong button.

So, I will agree with all of those that say "live buffer" doesn't work as it should & D* needs to fix it.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> Brott, does this fit with your experiences?


Beyond what has already been mentioned, the biggest no-no in my mind is when the buffer is flushed because a recording started on the same channel I was already watching. Back to the American Idol thing ... House started at 9:07pm instead of the normal 9:00pm. American Idol was listed as 8:00pm - 9:00pm, so the :07 were blank and as far as I can tell, successfully NOT recorded because unfortunately, the guide data was incorrect.

What stinks is that we reached 9:00pm on the H20 when the real time was 9:22pm. House was recorded on the exact same channel as American Idol, so I should have been able to rewind back to 9:00pm and continue American Idol until 9:07pm within the Single Live Buffer. Unfortunately, the Live TV buffer flushed @ 9:07pm to start recording House and those :07 vanished forever.

In the end, I really don't care that much about the :07. However, IMHO, the HR20 did the wrong thing and that should be corrected.

Now back to your original question. I don't usually bounce in/out of a program to see another show live, so I cannot verify the comments. However, I've found that the buffer will flush at the beginning and end of a recording. It doesn't matter if you are on the same channel or a different channel, the buffer flushes.

Clint, personally, I like the fact that the buffer flushes on a channel change, so your suggestion would get a negative vote from me. However, I'm all for making it an option - the more toggles, the better. I do think that a channel change should be the only time that the buffer actually flushes, though.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Until the code is rewritten for DLB the unit will never bring the satisfaction or praise tivo units did....and the hr20 is so close to being a better machine in so many other ways i wish this would be their focus now. IMHO.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

jheda said:


> Until the code is rewritten for DLB the unit will never bring the satisfaction or praise tivo units did....and the hr20 is so close to being a better machine in so many other ways i wish this would be their focus now. IMHO.


Please!!
I beg of the crowd!!
Please do NOT turn this into yet another DLB thread!!!

All that "WE" in this thread want is ONE BLEEPING BUFFER to work properly.

*sigh*


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> Please!!
> I beg of the crowd!!
> Please do NOT turn this into yet another DLB thread!!!
> 
> ...


Agreed.

:beatdeadhorse:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

*+2*


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

MicroBeta said:


> So, I'm watching the game and my wife walks in and says "Lets watch _Jericho_." I said "OK." It was recorded, so I went to the LIST. Watched about half the episode and returned to live TV. But wait.....
> 
> There is no buffer. It just starts when I exited my recording. Well, now I'm MAD.


Did you pause the game before you watched Jericho?


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## wmschultz (Jul 18, 2006)

Anyone get the feeling that if they would just open the code that someone here would fix a lot of the problems a lot faster?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

wmschultz said:


> Anyone get the feeling that if they would just open the code that someone here would fix a lot of the problems a lot faster?


I don't think Lockheed's "skunk works" has anything on this forum...:lol:


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

harsh said:


> Did you pause the game before you watched Jericho?


NO, I did not pause the game.

Good question! We're whittling it down.

Mike


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

wmschultz said:


> Anyone get the feeling that if they would just open the code that someone here would fix a lot of the problems a lot faster?


Totally agree with your spirit, and if it weren't for a few bad folks in the world everything would be open source. There was a time when all programming was custom and you got a full code reference as well as working code. That was a long, long time ago, before intellectual property lawyers had to get involved.


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> NO, I did not pause the game.
> 
> Good question! We're whittling it down.
> 
> Mike


How would this change the result? A paused program's buffer will still clear when switching to recorded material....


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Wow, 25 replies and no one's stated the obvious. Why not just record the game? Then you'd be able to exit the game to watch Jericho and then go back to the game where you left off. You can bounce back and forth. One simple little button press would have saved you all this agrivation.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

brott said:


> Now back to your original question. I don't usually bounce in/out of a program to see another show live, so I cannot verify the comments. However, I've found that the buffer will flush at the beginning and end of a recording. It doesn't matter if you are on the same channel or a different channel, the buffer flushes.


Do I understand you to say...

-I'm watching something previously recorded 
-The Live Buffer is on channel A
-A program in the _ToDo_ list starts recording on channel B
-I exit out of the previously recorded program and will find the Live Buffer cleared

Is this correct? If so we should keep this as a procedure that causes the buffer to clear.

To anwser another question I saw(not sure who), I never put the unit in standby.

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Wow, 25 replies and no one's stated the obvious. Why not just record the game? Then you'd be able to exit the game to watch Jericho and then go back to the game where you left off. You can bounce back and forth. One simple little button press would have saved you all this agrivation.


It wouldn't let me because there were 2 items in the _ToDo_ list for 10pm. Sorry, meant to mentioned this before.

Though it would have saved me alot of aggravation had I been able, it should not have been an issue to begin with.

Mike


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Wow, 25 replies and no one's stated the obvious. Why not just record the game? Then you'd be able to exit the game to watch Jericho and then go back to the game where you left off. You can bounce back and forth. One simple little button press would have saved you all this agrivation.


I suggested it back here....



Tiebmbr said:


> I think the only workaround which would force the HR20 to perform such a task would be to punch record first, THEN change the channel...


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Tiebmbr said:


> I suggested it back here....


Damn you Tiebmbr!  I swear I read the whole thread.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> It wouldn't let me because there were 2 items in the _ToDo_ list for 10pm. Sorry, meant to mentioned this before.
> 
> Though it would have saved me alot of aggravation had I been able, it should not have been an issue to begin with.
> 
> Mike


Not to be an ass, but you could have set up a manual recording till 10. I know, PITA, but it would have given you some of the game.


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Damn you Tiebmbr!  I swear I read the whole thread.


...consider yourself "bombed"!:lol:


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Not to be an ass, but you could have set up a manual recording till 10. I know, PITA, but it would have given you some of the game.


I could have but I didn't expect it to be a problem. When we started watching Jericho, I didn't change the channel to do it. I expected the buffer to work as it should.

BTW, I don't think you're an ass.

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> Totally agree with your spirit, and if it weren't for a few bad folks in the world everything would be open source. There was a time when all programming was custom and you got a full code reference as well as working code. That was a long, long time ago, before intellectual property lawyers had to get involved.


Can you say "Bill Gates"? :lol:


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

lamontcranston said:


> Totally agree with your spirit, and if it weren't for a few bad folks in the world everything would be open source. There was a time when all programming was custom and you got a full code reference as well as working code. That was a long, long time ago, before intellectual property lawyers had to get involved.


...and the movie "War Games" came out...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Do I understand you to say...
> 
> -I'm watching something previously recorded
> -The Live Buffer is on channel A
> ...


I observed this phenomenon in the past. After some digging, I found a thread that I started about 2 months ago.



> Hopefully the picture that I am showing will be more clear than the way I worded it.
> 
> The image shows 3 bars:
> 
> ...


It seems that I did not have this problem (my final note) when no other recording was active. It only seemed to rear it's ugly head if a recording started or stopped. In the picture above, I would certainly expect the green bar to cover from 7pm on. Since I was on the channel all along, the green bar really should cover the entire spectrum of time shown, but it didn't.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Wow, 25 replies and no one's stated the obvious. Why not just record the game? Then you'd be able to exit the game to watch Jericho and then go back to the game where you left off. You can bounce back and forth. One simple little button press would have saved you all this agrivation.


The point of this thread is not to find a workaround.
:nono2: 
The point is that the receiver's software needs to be designed to not flush the "single live buffer" unless it is FORCED to flush because both tuners are suddenly being utilized for 2 other channels.

This is a flaw that needs to be corrected.

Some of us watch more live tv than recorded tv. Why must we be forced to constantly record and delete shows when we are "almost watching it live"?

And to push the issue a step further, as I eluded to in a prior post, if the "current channel" doesn't utilize "a rewindable buffer" (such as the frickin Active Channel, Mix Channels, and/or any Game Channels), then the single live buffer should continue buffering the last known bufferable channel.

-------------------

I wonder how much of this issue revolves around the fact we never know which tuner is being used for the current channel .... in other words .... how D* decides which tuner will be used.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> I wonder how much of this issue revolves around the fact we never know which tuner is being used for the current channel .... in other words .... how D* decides which tuner will be used.


Does it really matter which tuner is "live"? 
Live is [well should be] just that..live buffered.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> I could have but I didn't expect it to be a problem. When we started watching Jericho, I didn't change the channel to do it. I expected the buffer to work as it should.
> 
> BTW, I don't think you're an ass.
> 
> Mike





Supervolcano said:


> The point of this thread is not to find a workaround.
> :nono2:
> The point is that the receiver's software needs to be designed to not flush the "single live buffer" unless it is FORCED to flush because both tuners are suddenly being utilized for 2 other channels.
> 
> ...


Well I guess I just watch tv differently than you. I never watch anything live (unless the tv is just on as background noise while I do something else). If I'm actively watching it, I'm watching something recorded. Even if it was sports (I done this before), I will set up the game to record and if I catch up to live, I will watch something else and then come back to the game. Yes, I guess the 90 minute buffer would be enough to cover 2 hour long shows if you FF through commercials, but, if something else comes up, I go to the bathroom, I make a sandwich, etc. I want to know the game (or whatever) is still recording. I just record everything I have any interest in. Deleting is simple. I always have room, so why not?

And thanks for not thinking of me as an ass. I was trying to be helpful to find a way that you could have gotten to watch the game (I know I'd be pissed if I missed a football game I wanted to watch) and when I started typing I knew it might be taken that I was being a jerk.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> The point of this thread is not to find a workaround.
> :nono2:
> The point is that the receiver's software needs to be designed to not flush the "single live buffer" unless it is FORCED to flush because both tuners are suddenly being utilized for 2 other channels.
> 
> This is a flaw that needs to be corrected.


That's the point!



Supervolcano said:


> And to push the issue a step further, as I eluded to in a prior post, if the "current channel" doesn't utilize "a rewindable buffer" (such as the frickin Active Channel, Mix Channels, and/or any Game Channels), then the single live buffer should continue buffering the last known bufferable channel.


Now that would make sense.......maybe too much sense.



Supervolcano said:


> I wonder how much of this issue revolves around the fact we never know which tuner is being used for the current channel .... in other words .... how D* decides which tuner will be used.


I've always wondered about this. It obviously has 2 tuners (at least) to do what it does.

Is there a _primary_ and _secondary_ and you are always "live" on the primary? Well I guess that doesn't make much sense because if you happen to be watching the channel that starts to record does it now become the _secondary_?

What does the "non-live" tuner do when not recording?

Does the OA antenna have its own tuner (making 3) or is it a secondary input for _primary_ and _secondary_ tuners....or would that be tertiary? :scratchin (what did I just say..um type)

It *seems* that which turner is live must be dynamic. Obviously not an easy thing to control I/O for. That flow path has to be incredibly complicated. IMHO, and as with the original intent of this thread, the Live Buffer should be a major, if not the top, priority and should work correctly every time.

Just a question....what's the OS.

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Right now there are four usable tuners: 2 SAT & 2 OTA.
Changing channels [with no recording] will cause the tuners to alternate. So there is no "dedicated" tuner. #1 or #2 can be used at anytime [unless a recording].
I don't think there is any difference for "live" buffer. It's the one being used at that time. period.


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> Totally agree with your spirit, and if it weren't for a few bad folks in the world everything would be open source. There was a time when all programming was custom and you got a full code reference as well as working code. That was a long, long time ago, before intellectual property lawyers had to get involved.


Could not agree more! Anyone use XBMC and see the amazing stuff open source and a devout community can produce? This is by far the best media software written and it's free. Too bad it takes hacking an Xbox (illegally according to MS) to utilize it, well at least fully.

Anyway back on topic. I have tried to pause before watching a recording with the same buffer dump. The only work around I have is to hit rec before watching a recording.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> And thanks for not thinking of me as an ass. I was trying to be helpful to find a way that you could have gotten to watch the game (I know I'd be pissed if I missed a football game I wanted to watch) and when I started typing I knew it might be taken that I was being a jerk.


I've got a thick skin (or if you talk to my wife...head) so don't worry about it.  It was good info in the short term. I didn't even think of manual recording until I sat down last night to take some notes.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Right now there are four usable tuners: 2 SAT & 2 OTA.
> Changing channels [with no recording] will cause the tuners to alternate. So there is no "dedicated" tuner. #1 or #2 can be used at anytime [unless a recording].
> I don't think there is any difference for "live" buffer. It's the one being used at that time. period.


4 physical tuners or 2 tuners with switchable inputs.

WOW...that could mean....yes I'll say it QUAD-LIVE BUFFERS.

Really, how cool would it to be able to record 1 OTA, 1 SAT, and watch 1 SAT live(choose your combination).

Now thats getting pretty far from the original topic. Just make the LIVE BUFFER WORK.

veryoldschool....how very

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> 4 physical tuners or 2 tuners with switchable inputs.
> WOW...that could mean....yes I'll say it QUAD-LIVE BUFFERS.
> Really, how cool would it to be able to record 1 OTA, 1 SAT, and watch 1 SAT live(choose your combination).
> Now thats getting pretty far from the original topic. Just make the LIVE BUFFER WORK.
> ...


Four "physical" tuners.
There is a "choke" point with the data being processed [decoding] that limits the receiver to two streams. Now if you want to install a 3 GHz Pentium dual core...you can get more, but currently it ain't got the horsepower.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Four "physical" tuners.
> There is a "choke" point with the data being processed [decoding] that limits the receiver to two streams. Now if you want to install a 3 GHz Pentium dual core...you can get more, but currently it ain't got the horsepower.


Do you, or anyone here, know what the processor/OS is? I would have thought that horsepower & memory would be paramount to making a HD reciever/DVR work.

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Do you, or anyone here, know what the processor/OS is? I would have thought that horsepower & memory would be paramount to making a HD reciever/DVR work.
> 
> Mike


The system is a combination of the Broadcom BCM7038 & BCM7411 processors. The 7038 is the CPU portion and the 7411 does the MPEG4 decoding. Theoretically, the 7038 could do MPEG4 decoding in software, but it is unlikely that that would ever occur - you can already see processing power issues without adding that complexity.

The best anyone can tell is that the Operating System is Linux, but DirecTV understandably doesn't publish the specs of the complete configuration.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

No I'm not talking DLB at all. I mean once you switch channels that channel stops being buffered and it starts buffering the new channel. YOU can rewind and see what was buffered UP UNTIL the channel change happened.



Tiebmbr said:


> Of course, this would be negated if you switched the channel to a third station...you are actually describing the behaviors of DLB here, Clint. I think the only workaround which would force the HR20 to perform such a task would be to punch record first, THEN change the channel...I guess this is a "Tips & Tricks" solution...but that's all we have in light of a rewrite of code...:nono:


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Well I guess I just watch tv differently than you. I never watch anything live


Yes, I figured that, and your not alone.
Many people only watch recorded programming.
Many people have jobs and only get to watch a few hours of tv each day.

But then there's the retired and unemployed folks who watch 16 hours of tv a day.

We need a solution, not a workaround.
A live buffer should BE a live buffer.



veryoldschool said:


> Supervolcano said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how much of this issue revolves around the fact we never know which tuner is being used for the current channel .... in other words .... how D* decides which tuner will be used.
> ...


Where I'm going is that I "have a feeling" (just a gut feeling - aka: not proven yet), that maybe the coding flaw is POSSIBLY as follows.

Let's say the buffered program happens to be on Tuner #2.
Now we go to watch some other recording for 60 minutes.
Maybe the receiver switched the previous channel to be using Tuner #1 instead of #2, thus we lose the buffer?

This might explain why sometimes the buffer sticks and sometimes it doesn't.

I could be wrong, but hasn't it been proven that when the receiver is in standby mode that it automatically uses Tuner #1 for scheduled recordings, no matter which tuner the current channel is using?

Forgive me for thinking out loud instead of just testing all this myself.


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## mrshermanoaks (Aug 27, 2006)

brott said:


> Beyond what has already been mentioned, the biggest no-no in my mind is when the buffer is flushed because a recording started on the same channel I was already watching.


Or even a different channel. If I'm watching a show on one channel that ends at 8pm, and I'm delayed 15 minutes, there's no reason why at 8pm when it goes to record a show (on that channel or another one) that I should lose the buffered show that I'm watching if I don't change the channel myself or do anything else.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> Where I'm going is that I "have a feeling" (just a gut feeling - aka: not proven yet), that maybe the coding flaw is POSSIBLY as follows.
> 
> Let's say the buffered program happens to be on Tuner #2.
> Now we go to watch some other recording for 60 minutes.
> ...


Maybe it's the "blonde" in me but: why the hell would the tuner change? Unless there was a "tune command" sent? What ever tuner is in use [live] should stay that way until the "command" is sent for a change. I can be watching "live" and a recording needs to start, it doesn't change anything. It "just" uses the free tuner regardless of whether it's #1 or #2, it's "the free one". When there isn't one "free" it tells me it's going to use the "live" one.
What I know has been proven is that it will switch tuners on channel changes if both are "free" [I know this because I did it], but I don't know that someone has proved it changes going into standby [doesn't mean someone hasn't, only that I haven't seen it].
More "blonde": Why the hell would the code have "extra" commands to change tuners? Foolish me for thinking good code is efficiently written.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

mrshermanoaks said:


> Or even a different channel. If I'm watching a show on one channel that ends at 8pm, and I'm delayed 15 minutes, there's no reason why at 8pm when it goes to record a show (on that channel or another one) that I should lose the buffered show that I'm watching if I don't change the channel myself or do anything else.


Exactly...if the live tuner isn't needed for anything else...


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> Yes, I figured that, and your not alone.
> Many people only watch recorded programming.
> Many people have jobs and only get to watch a few hours of tv each day.
> 
> ...


I'm really trying to understand this. So it sounds like if you watch 16 hours a day, you don't always have something recorded, so you are trying to find something to watch, correct? So you start watching something live and commercials come up, so you pause and switch to the other tuner (with DLB of course) and find/watch something else right? And then switch back and forth? Why not to take the time every morning or so to search around the guide for stuff to record. Hit the record button and you have lots of recorded stuff to watch and you can actually watch a whole program without jumping back and forth between programs. I don't see how anyone can watch anything like that. I do it for 2 football games, but it's only so that I don't get spoiled on the score. I'd much rather prefer to watch one whole game completely and then watch the other, but I have a higher chance of ruining the score for the whole other game if I do that and then I definitely can't watch a game when I know the score.

I'm not trying to bash the way you watch tv, but it just seems better to find stuff to record and watch them completely then to flip around live tv constantly going back and forth to two different programs. Correct me if I've got something wrong.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> Where I'm going is that I "have a feeling" (just a gut feeling - aka: not proven yet), that maybe the coding flaw is POSSIBLY as follows.
> 
> Let's say the buffered program happens to be on Tuner #2.
> Now we go to watch some other recording for 60 minutes.
> ...


I realize this is all supposition but let me see if I get it.

Your saying that there could be somewhere in the code, say in the event of a reset for example, that causes the system to default to a particular tuner. And that in some situations, not necessarily as intended, it jumps to the default tuner.

I _like _this idea:icon_bb:. The only hole I see is that it happened twice. Meaning that it would have had to jump to a _different _"default" tuner twice. However, it has to be something similar to this causing the problems. Since which tuner is providing "live" TV has to be dynamic then maybe which tuner is considered primary or default could be variable and if I/O is not properly controlled may cause unintended consequences.

Does this make any sense?:scratchin

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> I'm not trying to bash the way you watch tv, but it just seems better to find stuff to record and watch them completely then to flip around live tv constantly going back and forth to two different programs. Correct me if I've got something wrong.


Ahh sure you are....:lol: :lol: 
Now here is where I want it to work:
I'm on discovery...I go into my play list & catch a recording. After it ends, I'm "back" to my "live" channel. So what did I miss, oh hey this looks good..let's back this puppy up and see the beginning...oops..no buffer...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

veryoldschool said:


> There is a "choke" point with the data being processed [decoding] that limits the receiver to two streams. Now if you want to install a 3 GHz Pentium dual core...you can get more, but currently it ain't got the horsepower.


There is a very great danger in trying to apply personal computer solutions to appliance technology. Many times it just doesn't work out. What you're suggesting is akin to using CNC driven metal cutting LASER where tin snips might be more appropriate. I can think of very few situations where high speed floating point capability are going to come into play in a DVR.

Echostar proved that the existing Broadcom chipset is capable of recording three streams (and watching a fourth?) when they added that capability to the ViP622. I'm sure it was on DirecTV's minds to do the same or they wouldn't have documented it in the manual.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Ahh sure you are....:lol: :lol:
> Now here is where I want it to work:
> I'm on discovery...I go into my play list & catch a recording. After it ends, I'm "back" to my "live" channel. So what did I miss, oh hey this looks good..let's back this puppy up and see the beginning...oops..no buffer...


The universe (or at least live buffers) in a nut shell.

What else if not to review/backup/pause when ever you want?

Understanding how someone watches TV is beside the point. It should work exactly as VOS described.

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

harsh said:


> There is a very great danger in trying to apply personal computer solutions to appliance technology. Many times it just doesn't work out. What you're suggesting is akin to using CNC driven metal cutting LASER where tin snips might be more appropriate. I can think of very few situations where high speed floating point capability are going to come into play in a DVR.
> 
> Echostar proved that the existing Broadcom chipset is capable of recording three streams (and watching a fourth?) when they added that capability to the ViP622. I'm sure it was on DirecTV's minds to do the same or they wouldn't have documented it in the manual.


It is a computer. Data comes in, is processed, then output.

Simplistic...true. However, it's at the root of the problem.

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

harsh said:


> There is a very great danger in trying to apply personal computer solutions to appliance technology. Many times it just doesn't work out. What you're suggesting is akin to using CNC driven metal cutting LASER where tin snips might be more appropriate. I can think of very few situations where high speed floating point capability are going to come into play in a DVR.
> 
> Echostar proved that the existing Broadcom chipset is capable of recording three streams (and watching a fourth?) when they added that capability to the ViP622. I'm sure it was on DirecTV's minds to do the same or they wouldn't have documented it in the manual.


Well it sure wouldn't be the cheap solution, as mine cost about as much as "owning" the HR-20 would.
Now somewhere, somebody "knew" the chips used & found the "choke point". Maybe D* "planed to do it", but the chip layout seems not to provide for it. But hey, "what do I know"? I'm just the hardware guy here.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jheda said:


> Until the code is rewritten for DLB the unit will never bring the satisfaction or praise tivo units did....and the hr20 is so close to being a better machine in so many other ways i wish this would be their focus now. IMHO.


I totally agree. The HR20 is on the cusp of being the standard. Most of the problems are little more annoyances. Compound them with the fact that some people have very real, very major problems, it's very easy to flame the crap out of it.

That's why this problem bothers me so much. The *Live Buffer *has to be the one thing that works perfectly. Everything else the machine does is built and marketed around it.

I realize that from an engineering standpoint that it's just another aspect of the software that makes it run. I understand that the programming involved is monstrous. However, the *Live Buffer *is the only thing that sets this box off from a generic receiver & VCR. All right, all right, I'll give you that VCR can't record HD but that's not really the point now is it.

If the *Live Bleeping Buffer *doesn't work, we might as well give up.

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

mrshermanoaks said:


> Or even a different channel. If I'm watching a show on one channel that ends at 8pm, and I'm delayed 15 minutes, there's no reason why at 8pm when it goes to record a show (on that channel or another one) that I should lose the buffered show that I'm watching if I don't change the channel myself or do anything else.


Yes, as long as there is a background tuner available for recording. If you have two recordings start on different channels, then I would expect the buffer to be flushed.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Ahh sure you are....:lol: :lol:
> Now here is where I want it to work:
> I'm on discovery...I go into my play list & catch a recording. After it ends, I'm "back" to my "live" channel. So what did I miss, oh hey this looks good..let's back this puppy up and see the beginning...oops..no buffer...


I really wasn't. Just trying to understand. Again, this is the difference between you and I (and nobody's right or wrong). When I stop watching a show and delete it, I go right in the list to find something else or I turn off the tv. Seriously. I don't even look to see what's playing. If it's primetime, chances are good it's recording at least one thing, so I don't want to even see what it's recording. I record a lot of things (that's why the 50 SL limit is way more important to me than DLB or most other things), so I usually have something to watch. Whether it's something that requires my full attention or it's something to put on as background noise while I use my laptop.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> I really wasn't. Just trying to understand. Again, this is the difference between you and I (and nobody's right or wrong). When I stop watching a show and delete it, I go right in the list to find something else or I turn off the tv. Seriously. I don't even look to see what's playing. If it's primetime, chances are good it's recording at least one thing, so I don't want to even see what it's recording. I record a lot of things (that's why the 50 SL limit is way more important to me than DLB or most other things), so I usually have something to watch. Whether it's something that requires my full attention or it's something to put on as background noise while I use my laptop.


Are you the only one in your house? Do you all watch TV the same way?

How any of us watch TV is beside the point.

The *Live Buffer* must work always.

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> I really wasn't. Just trying to understand.


I hoped the :lol: :lol: :lol: would give you some idea of how my "opening line" was to be taken.


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## John in Georgia (Sep 24, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> I'm really trying to understand this.
> 
> I'm not trying to bash the way you watch tv, but it just seems better to find stuff to record and watch them completely then to flip around live tv constantly going back and forth to two different programs. Correct me if I've got something wrong.


Matt,

Feeding an electronic signal (audio or video) through any additional processing, transmission, recording, etc. generally never yields an improvement in its quality. The closer one can get to the original signal -- the higher the quality. Quality ... not convenience. Hope this helps.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

John in Georgia said:


> Matt,
> 
> Feeding an electronic signal (audio or video) through any additional processing, transmission, recording, etc. generally never yields an improvement in its quality. The closer one can get to the original signal -- the higher the quality. Quality ... not convenience. Hope this helps.


Um...What? :scratchin

I think Matt was talking about viewing habits not PQ. Maybe I'm the one missing it.

Mike


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

John in Georgia said:


> Matt,
> 
> Feeding an electronic signal (audio or video) through any additional processing, transmission, recording, etc. generally never yields an improvement in its quality. The closer one can get to the original signal -- the higher the quality. Quality ... not convenience. Hope this helps.


Not to jump into someone else's conversation, but I don't understand your argument. In the case of the HR-20, it records the data stream. There is no degradation of quality because of the recording, since the decoding happens after the recording. Watching "live" and watching a recording is exactly the same; it is always the original signal.



MicroBeta said:


> Um...What?
> 
> I think Matt was talking about viewing habits not PQ. Maybe I'm the one missing it.
> 
> Mike


No, I think you are correct.


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

I'm trying to figure out just what the problem is here with the live buffer in order to test it myself. If I turn on my HR20 and it's tuned to a particular station and then I go to the playlist and watch something recorded, when I finish with the recording and go back live, my 90 min. live buffer is still intact. So, is this only a problem when another show starts recording on that same station (i.e., the machine flushes the buffer for everything on that channel except for what it's recording now)? Or, like the OP, does it also occur when you start watching a recording that is not yet complete?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

shendley said:


> I'm trying to figure out just what the problem is here with the live buffer in order to test it myself. If I turn on my HR20 and it's tuned to a particular station and then I go to the playlist and watch something recorded, when I finish with the recording and go back live, my 90 min. live buffer is still intact. So, is this only a problem when another show starts recording on that same station (i.e., the machine flushes the buffer for everything on that channel except for what it's recording now)? Or, like the OP, does it also occur when you start watching a recording that is not yet complete?


My post #56 was without any recording, and what did or does happen with one of my receivers. I'll now need to see if the other does the same thing.


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> My post #56 was without any recording, and what did or does happen with one of my receivers. I'll now need to see if the other does the same thing.


I re-read your post and see what you're saying. Oddly, I just don't have a problem with the buffer when I merely go to a recording and then go back to live. Though it could be that I have it intermittently and just haven't noticed it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

shendley said:


> I re-read your post and see what you're saying. Oddly, I just don't have a problem with the buffer when I merely go to a recording and then go back to live. Though it could be that I have it intermittently and just haven't noticed it.


Is this when you watch a full hour recording? Just to be sure..& I still need to check it with my second unit to see if it's the same [hoping it's not].


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

shendley said:


> Or, like the OP, does it also occur when you start watching a recording that is not yet complete?


Ok, I see now what the OP was saying in this situation. The Single Live Buffer seems to have switched to the OTHER tuner (or at least it thinks it did) when the recording was played. When the recording was stopped, it went back to the original tuner (another "channel change") and flushed the buffer.

This is the biggest part of the bug, but surely there are other ways that this behavior is exhibited.

For some reason the HR20 thought that it was switching tuners and as such flushed the buffer. Clearly something is not right because the recording program should have been started from the LIST, not from Live TV ... Houston we have a problem! I'm not saying that this is user error, quite the contrary. I'm saying that the design of the system is *interpreting* it as if the user DID NOT start it from the LIST even when the user DOES start it from the LIST ... That is the problem.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

shendley said:


> I re-read your post and see what you're saying. Oddly, I just don't have a problem with the buffer when I merely go to a recording and then go back to live. Though it could be that I have it intermittently and just haven't noticed it.


It doesn't happen all the time. It is hit and miss. That is what makes it so frustrating. The only way to ensure you have a buffered live program when you are watching a recording is to start another recording. If you cross the 1/2 or hour point the recording stopped and now you have missed the beginning of the next show. Like VOS stated, you may find you have interest in the live programming after and not the foresight to set it up as a recording.

This is my #1 wish list item to fix.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

armophob post fast ... Your @ 666 posts.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

brott said:


> armophob post fast ... Your @ 666 posts.


Whoa to you o' earth and sea........


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I just checked my #2 twin & it dumps the live buffer the minute I start watching a recording. So both of mine take a "dump" with the live buffer when "they shouldn't".


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

armophob said:


> Whoa to you o' earth and sea........


Sorry had to jump in off topic. Eddie rules!!!!devil12::icon_bb:


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

shendley said:


> I'm trying to figure out just what the problem is here with the live buffer in order to test it myself. If I turn on my HR20 and it's tuned to a particular station and then I go to the playlist and watch something recorded, when I finish with the recording and go back live, my 90 min. live buffer is still intact. So, is this only a problem when another show starts recording on that same station (i.e., the machine flushes the buffer for everything on that channel except for what it's recording now)? Or, like the OP, does it also occur when you start watching a recording that is not yet complete?


I started watching something that already recording. However, I was already watching the game "live", so it wasn't because something starting recording on the same channel. The second time, when I went to finish watching the show there wasn't anything recording at all and nothing started prior to finishing.

*Heres the time line*
8:00pm - Jericho starts recording on local NBC-MPEG4 & I tune to ch 625 for the Mets game
≈8:30pm - I go to the list select Jericho and press play and watch most of episode
9:00pm - Jericho stops recording and nothing else is recording
9:09pm - Stop watching Jericho and return to live TV which is on ch 625 and find no Live Buffer. Watch for a few min. and then finish watching Jericho
9:29pm - Finish watching Jericho and return to live TV which is on ch 625 to find the buffer has cleared again and still nothing is recording.

*Other potentially useful info*
- While initially watching the game I paused and then "caught up" during commercials so it was almost/quasi/psudo live...maybe.
- At 9:09 untill we started watching Jericho again the buffer did build normally again the game was almost/quasi/psudo live.
- At 9:29 the buffer did build normally.

I think it may be useful for anyone with an issue to break it down into steps or some kind of list. If you got a list/sequence of events, pm me and I'll try to compile/compare. What do you think(collectively not anyone in particular)?

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Just talked to my daughter. She had a similar problem last night.

*Went Like This*
- Watching a show
- Didn't want to sit through commercials so played something from the list
- Done and back to live TV and....yup no *Bleeping Buffer*

Interesting part....Nothing was recording. It just cleared the buffer. It took me several tries but I replicated this but I got it. Nothing going on and the *BLEEPING BUFFER CLEARS.......NFG*. SD channel and SD recording.

My head hurts.........:bang

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> My head hurts.........


Kinda like this?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

jgrade said:


> Sorry had to jump in off topic. Eddie rules!!!!devil12::icon_bb:


I knew there were at least 2 of us still alive.
:icon_bb:


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## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

My question is why would anyone program in the behavior to switch tuners when the channel is changed (when both tuners are free)?

It seems an obvious that would clear the buffer and why clear the buffer if you don't have to?

This may not be the root cause of this issue, but it sure seems like it is related.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

Kapeman said:


> My question is why would anyone program in the behavior to switch tuners when the channel is changed (when both tuners are free)?
> 
> It seems an obvious that would clear the buffer and why clear the buffer if you don't have to?
> 
> This may not be the root cause of this issue, but it sure seems like it is related.


That's the $64,000 question!!

And you can prove that this IS the current designs behavior by simply unplugging your dish feeds (or cover your lnbs). Every time you press channel change, it will alternate between "Searching for Signal: Tuner 1" and "Searching for Signal: Tuner 2".

This is where I was going with my previous post of how D* controls which tuner is currently being used, not the user.

I feel they are playing with which tuner is in use too much ... And when D* starts toying with the which tuner is in use ... all it takes is one small error in the software code somewhere to wind up flushing your buffer inadvertently.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> That's the $64,000 question!!
> 
> I feel they are playing with which tuner is in use too much ... And when D* starts toying with the which tuner is in use ... all it takes is one small error in the software code somewhere to wind up flushing your buffer inadvertently.


Your are absolutly correct. I think this a concept that I'm not sure is in the front of D*'s thinking for the HR20.

There should be some level of seperation. Almost as if each tuner is it's own system and they don't cross. Although, not actually practical (or even desirable) it is a good model to work with.

For example....Tivo....I channel surf on one tuner up/down or just jumping to specific channels. When I get the channel the other tuner is on it will change to that tuner and the first tuner stays where it is. This shows a certain level of segregation while still maintaining a maximum *Live Buffer* possible. This little experiment illustrates autonomy with minimum cross over between what each tuner is doing while *always maintaining the most functionality*. That functionality, which most of Tivoers(is this a word??) are used to, should be the corner stone to everything else the HR20 does. _*Maximum Functionality *_is what it's all about.

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

brott said:


> Kinda like this?


DEFINITLY LIKE THAT....

M


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Is this when you watch a full hour recording? Just to be sure..& I still need to check it with my second unit to see if it's the same [hoping it's not].


Yes, the recording I tested it on (just to make sure) was exactly an hour.


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

brott said:


> Ok, I see now what the OP was saying in this situation. The Single Live Buffer seems to have switched to the OTHER tuner (or at least it thinks it did) when the recording was played. When the recording was stopped, it went back to the original tuner (another "channel change") and flushed the buffer.
> 
> This is the biggest part of the bug, but surely there are other ways that this behavior is exhibited.
> 
> For some reason the HR20 thought that it was switching tuners and as such flushed the buffer. Clearly something is not right because the recording program should have been started from the LIST, not from Live TV ... Houston we have a problem! I'm not saying that this is user error, quite the contrary. I'm saying that the design of the system is *interpreting* it as if the user DID NOT start it from the LIST even when the user DOES start it from the LIST ... That is the problem.


"For some reason the HR20 thought that it was switching tuners and as such flushed the buffer. Clearly something is not right because the recording program should have been started from the LIST, not from Live TV"

Yes, this seems to be the right way of putting the issue. I haven't seen this yet, but I'm going to start looking for it whenever I start a recording that hasn't finished.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

shendley said:


> Yes, the recording I tested it on (just to make sure) was exactly an hour.


Had the buffer full on my second box, when into the play list, started a recording, then back to "live" TV, no buffer.. After watching the recording through, back to live TV with buffer [full].  
It dumped, but then filled..


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Had the buffer full on my second box, when into the play list, started a recording, then back to "live" TV, no buffer.. After watching the recording through, back to live TV with buffer [full].
> It dumped, but then filled..


Do you think it is really there all the time and there could be a way to restore it?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> Do you think it is really there all the time and there could be a way to restore it?


They could "restore it" by not "dumping it" in the first place.
What "came back" was what filled during me watching the recording. This actually was a surprise as most of the time it dumps [at least on my other unit] as I quit watching the recording, and go back to live.
And then there is the member's which doesn't "dump"...


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Are you the only one in your house? Do you all watch TV the same way?


Well, my wife and daughter watch more live tv that I do, but neither no about DLB's. I even asked my wife before we got the HR20 and she was like 

But since this doesn't affect me at all, I'm going to jump out of the discussion. I do hope they fix it so that it works like it's supposed to as you expect it to.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> They could "restore it" by not "dumping it" in the first place.
> What "came back" was what filled during me watching the recording. This actually was a surprise as most of the time it dumps [at least on my other unit] as I quit watching the recording, and go back to live.
> And then there is the member's which doesn't "dump"...


I have always just given up after I came back and found no buffer. I will stop recording after tonights download and see if it happens again. If it does I will go back and forth a few times and see if it reappears.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Well, my wife and daughter watch more live tv that I do, but neither no about DLB's. I even asked my wife before we got the HR20 and she was like
> 
> But since this doesn't affect me at all, I'm going to jump out of the discussion. I do hope they fix it so that it works like it's supposed to as you expect it to.


Interesting, my wife kinda cares but is just fine without it. My daughter thinks the HR20 is POS just because of the buffer. One thinks it ok, one wants to get rid of it. My daughter is much more tech savy than my wife though and I think that's the difference.

When I posted my question to you it made me wonder what the differences in viewing habits in other households.

You don't need to bow out. Any info/discussion aids in lateral thinking. Hope it wasn't something _I_ said.

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Tiebmbr said:


> How would this change the result? A paused program's buffer will still clear when switching to recorded material....


I'm only making an assumption, but it seems there is certain actions/conditions that might cause the software to make a call to some subroutine to switch tuners or maybe a subroutine that just clears the buffer. If I make that assumption, then any button press could be important.

I'm *not* saying this is how the machine works. Something has to control the flow of data through the box. With enough lateral branches we might find something in common. Not that we'll have any effect on those in control.

Hey, it's worth a shot.

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I was having a discussion with a friend. He thinks we (my wife and I) are a little spoiled and that lots of people can't rewind live TV and I'm just whining about my *Bleeping Live Bleeping Buffer*. I sort of agree...I am spoiled by DVR. I hate when I can't back up when I miss something at someone else's house. However, I expect it to work as advertised. Which brings up the question.....How was it advertised? All I can find is that I can "pause and rewind live TV for up to 90 minutes never miss the action". My friends view is that this doesn't mean I can watch something recorded and expect the buffer to be intact. For that matter, does it say anywhere that you can watch a recording and have an intact live buffer with Tivo.

My response to him was that it is how the thing works. It accumulates a *Bleeping Live Bleeping Buffer* and should continue to accumulate until you change channel. In my OP is stated that I was promised a *Bleeping Live Bleeping Buffer*. That may be accurate but is it the truth?

Mike


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

Thing is 'most' other DVRs have DLB. I have no idea why D* didn't put this in there own DVR. Also with the pause points not really working like they should, it's like a step back.

I know where all talked about this before I was OK just give it time and it will get there. How much time should we give?? It is getting close for me at least in lost all hope for the HR20. We are at the 8th month mark now.....


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## apollosmith (Apr 11, 2007)

Yes, this whole buffer thing on my new HR20 is driving me batty. Must... resist... switching... to... Comcast....

I think if you really want to make a difference on these matters, just go out to every electronics review web site (epinions, CNET, Amazon) and post negative comments and specifically mention the buffer issues. The THOUSANDS of posts and poll results here have yet to get DirecTV's attention, so maybe going a bit more mainstream will.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

apollosmith said:


> Yes, this whole buffer thing on my new HR20 is driving me batty. Must... resist... switching... to... Comcast....
> 
> I think if you really want to make a difference on these matters, just go out to every electronics review web site (epinions, CNET, Amazon) and post negative comments and specifically mention the buffer issues. The THOUSANDS of posts and poll results here have yet to get DirecTV's attention, so maybe going a bit more mainstream will.


:welcome_sTo the forum.
FWIW: D* does read the posting here on this forum.
I, for one, have started threads that D* has [shortly] fixed the issue(s). While it doesn't mean every "issue" gets this quick a response, they do "know" what we're talking about.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> : they do "know" what we're talking about.


You can only hope so.......:bang


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> I was having a discussion with a friend. He thinks we (my wife and I) are a little spoiled and that lots of people can't rewind live TV and I'm just whining about my *Bleeping Live Bleeping Buffer*.


You are spoiled. And we all are. We spoil ourselves and pay a good deal of money to be spoiled. I have also seen the faces of those who don't own dvr's when 2 owners get into a discussion. They go blank then bored.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

armophob said:


> You are spoiled. And we all are. We spoil ourselves and pay a good deal of money to be spoiled. I have also seen the faces of those who don't own dvr's when 2 owners get into a discussion. They go blank then bored.


Like most of us, I know I'm spoiled and I'm ok with that. :righton:

Mike


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I am in progress with a news cast that appears lost because I decided to watch a recorded program. My buffer is lost apparently. I am witing for a suggestion from VOS before I change channels.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Ok, I watched a recording and the news program I was watching on fox is gone. During the process, another recording started on comedy central but only one recording was going on at the time. Did the Hr20 change my buffering channel for the recording channel that started and in so cause me to lose my news program? Instead of just recording on the available tuner?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

*AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Happened again today. It's incredible irritating.

Any of CE guy's know if there is a new version comming to the rest of us?

For that matter is this a problem in the latest CE release?

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> *AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> Happened again today. It's incredible irritating.
> 
> ...


Well there is always tonight's CE to see...


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

Do they even have the pause point working right??


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

The buffer clearing seems to have no pattern to it.

*∙* It happens when watching recorded show _A_ from the list while _A_ is still recording

*∙* It happens when watching a recorded show from the list while nothing is recording.

*∙* It happens when the recorded show is SD.

*∙* It happens when the recorded show is HD.

The only commonality seems to be when you are watching a recorded show from the list, the buffer may clear.

Anyone else have another scenario that causes the buffer to clear?

Is it possible to tell which tuner is active? Do they even have designations of some kind?

Mike


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## dlw283 (Dec 2, 2006)

Do we have a status on this issue? Hopefully the next software update will address this because it is very irritating.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dlw283 said:


> Do we have a status on this issue? Hopefully the next software update will address this because it is very irritating.


That's the problem. D* has been silent on buffers......but I've already posted my theory about that.

There is no status.

Mike


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

My uneducated theory is that the HR20 currently has a primary or favorite tuner and when nothing is being recorded and a recording is being watched, it occasionally reverts to that tuner and when you return to live it has nothing to display on the secondary tuner. The only test for this I can think of is to tune to the last channel the 2nd tuner was on from the recording to see if it has a buffered program.

Did that make any sense?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> My uneducated theory is that the HR20 currently has a primary or favorite tuner and when nothing is being recorded and a recording is being watched, it occasionally reverts to that tuner and when you return to live it has nothing to display on the secondary tuner. The only test for this I can think of is to tune to the last channel the 2nd tuner was on from the recording to see if it has a buffered program.
> 
> Did that make any sense?


"My tests" show that it alternates tuners [if there is no recording]. So whatever tuner is "live" the "other" will be used for the first recording.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "My tests" show that it alternates tuners [if there is no recording]. So whatever tuner is "live" the "other" will be used for the first recording.


So is it possible something is telling it to switch tuners after starting a saved program? Or do you suspect it is just dumping the buffer randomly?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> So is it possible something is telling it to switch tuners after starting a saved program? Or do you suspect it is just dumping the buffer randomly?


"I think" it is bad code, that dumps the buffer to show a recording [when it doesn't need to]. It hasn't been consistent. One time it will dump going in & out of watching a recording, & another time it will dump going in but keep buffering while watching the recording & not dump coming out of the recording. Maybe it only dumps coming out [as I always need to "come out" to see] and then this isn't consistent. It's becoming a "real plus" when it hasn't dumped after watching a recording.

*D* YOU NEED TO FIX THIS!*


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> *D* YOU NEED TO FIX THIS!*


++++1


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

armophob said:


> My uneducated theory is that the HR20 currently has a primary or favorite tuner and when nothing is being recorded and a recording is being watched, it occasionally reverts to that tuner and when you return to live it has nothing to display on the secondary tuner. The only test for this I can think of is to tune to the last channel the 2nd tuner was on from the recording to see if it has a buffered program.
> 
> Did that make any sense?


Actually, I think that makes a lot of sense. I'm guessing....but I'd bet that there is an _initialization_ configuration. The initial startup/reboot hardware and software settings. Maybe there there's an event that makes the software thinks it needs to make a call to some program/subroutine to the reinitialize tuners or buffers...or both.

Mike


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## chris-in-hills (Apr 20, 2007)

I spent time reading this entire thread and as a very new HR-20 user myself (having suffered this and quite a few other obvious bugs) I wanted to share a few observations:

1. Many are doing a *great* job of reporting scenarios that are causing the buffer problems.

2. The way I see this, we are all doing D* a huge favor by augmenting their obviously understaffed and/or undertrained software QA department.

3. I think as we help them we are also_ unwittingly _ensuring that they will continue to push crappy software out the door for us to struggle with. Why not? They know we'll help them reproduce the problems, post the scenarios here, and help them get it right.

So what's wrong with all this? Well, lots in my book.

Being an early adopter (which we apparently are, also known as alpha or beta users depending on how untested the product is) should not mean we get extremely buggy released software unless we are somehow compensated for the inconvenience.

In my business (telecommunications--I run a telecommunications software and hardware testing lab) when we are asked to be a beta user we are given the product or service for free to use and test. The idea is that you--an early adopter--are willing to deal with problems in exchange for at least not having to pay for the product/service. In other words, it's a nice way to get direct customers to use and comment on the product/service.

In my humble opinion, DirecTV has taken a rather _arrogant_ attitude with its HD customer base. In effect: "We will let our customers struggle with our obviously minimally-tested releases but let's charge them full price and keep them in the dark whenever they call asking for help or details on problems encountered" (in my 2 weeks as an HR-20 user, I have logged several hours on the phone with support and advanced support in vain on several issues like this one).

While you may think that eventually they will "get it right" on the HR-20, you may find that actually quite the opposite happening. In other words, well into the future, new releases of hardware and software may still continue to have obvious bugs and poorly implemented features. Why? Because they will not be motivated to expand and/or better train their QA (testing) group.

Don't get me wrong--this forum is a fantastic service to users like myself who are trying to work thru problems. But the deeper problem of poor software testing may keep us scratching our heads much, much longer than we should. Remember, we are paying FULL price for HD service. Considering the paucity of HD channels on DirecTV right now, the least we should expect is trouble-free enjoyment while we are watching.

My .02


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

chris-in-hills said:


> I spent time reading this entire thread and as a very new HR-20 user myself (having suffered this and quite a few other obvious bugs) I wanted to share a few observations:
> 
> 1. Many are doing a *great* job of reporting scenarios that are causing the buffer problems.
> 
> ...


Some of this has merit, I think. I've had my HR-20 for almost six months and do suffer from "it's been this long & we're only this far"?
On the other hand..in this time mine have gone from something I can't post here to working for the basic functions. A noted improvement.
There is the CE process that is on going to keep testing new software before the "average" user see it.
I've beat my head against the wall trying to talk to D* & find the forum to be a muck better means to get things changed [improved] which may be why so many of us are posting here.
This may be only a half penny's worth...


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## chris-in-hills (Apr 20, 2007)

It would be interesting to know how many programmers DirecTV has on the HR-20 engineering team. Then it would be even more interesting to know what the ratio is of QA testers to programmers. Purely from my 2-week experience with the box, I would be surprised if they had more than 10% of their total HR-20 team doing testing. Either that or their regression test plan does not actually test deep enough with real user scenarios.

I understand the market pressures they must be feeling to get HD to market, but this "minimally-tested" strategy they are using is, for the longer term, very risky. If a viable competitor came on the scene, I would be first in line to try another service. I almost gave Dish a try but got scared off after seeing the carnage on a forum like this.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

chris-in-hills said:


> It would be interesting to know how many programmers DirecTV has on the HR-20 engineering team. Then it would be even more interesting to know what the ratio is of QA testers to programmers. Purely from my 2-week experience with the box, I would be surprised if they had more than 10% of their total HR-20 team doing testing. Either that or their regression test plan does not actually test deep enough with real user scenarios.
> 
> I understand the market pressures they must be feeling to get HD to market, but this "minimally-tested" strategy they are using is, for the longer term, very risky. If a viable competitor came on the scene, I would be first in line to try another service. I almost gave Dish a try but got scared off after seeing the carnage on a forum like this.


To paraphrase an old commercial, it ain't anyway to run an airlines...


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I noticed something new over the past few days.

Sometimes(not always), I start a program from the list while it's still recording. 
When I'm done and exit to live TV, if find that the tuner is on the channel that was being recorded and not the one I was watching when I started.

1. Watching show on channel _A_
2. HR20 starts recording a show on channel _B_
3. Approx. 20 later I go to list and play the show that is currently recording
4. Recording over, go to live TV and the tuner is on the channel _B_ not channel _A_ where I left it.
5. Buffer was intact once and not the other.

I noticed this last week and started watching for it. I has happened twice since then.

Any thoughts?

Mike


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## dlw283 (Dec 2, 2006)

DirecTv just needs to hire some real programmers. Some of these issues have been around forever They have had six plus months to get the basics working and are still struggling.:nono2: My Tivo worked from day one and they periodically added new features. I JUST WANT THE BASICS TO WORK!!! :wizardhat


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I've had 0x17E since 21JUL07 and it hasn't had a cleared buffer since. 

Seems SLB has been fixed?

It was still a problem with the previous release (x168 I think) but hasn't resurfaced. 

Anyone have a buffer clear while watching a recorded program?

Mike


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> I've had 0x17E since 21JUL07 and it hasn't had a cleared buffer since.
> 
> Seems SLB has been fixed?
> 
> ...


Yes, I had a buffer clear yesterday morning. I happened when a recording started on the background tuner while I was watching a recording. I came back to live TV, and no buffer.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

DogLover said:


> Yes, I had a buffer clear yesterday morning. I happened when a recording started on the background tuner while I was watching a recording. I came back to live TV, and no buffer.


Now that's _un-good_. I was hoping it was fixed.

Anyone else? Include as much detail as to what you and the HR20 were doing.

Mike


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

I would just like even the SINGLE live buffer to just buffer. Why in the hell does it have to clear the buffer when I change a channel? Why can't it just show the last 90 minutes of what I was watching, regardless of channel changes


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

MartyS said:


> I would just like even the SINGLE live buffer to just buffer. Why in the hell does it have to clear the buffer when I change a channel? Why can't it just show the last 90 minutes of what I was watching, regardless of channel changes


How could it do what you're asking?  
It buffers the channel you're watching. If you just tuned to it, how could it have 90 min of buffer?
Maybe I'm not getting your real question, but as I read it, there would need to be a 90 min buffer for every channel that you "could tune to".
If you meant having one channel with 90 min buffer while you surf other channels, then just hit the record button for that channel and surf away.


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## minterca (Feb 14, 2007)

I just had the HR20-100 installed. Replaced a HR10-250.
I was watching a show last night, tried to pause it to go get a drink. I could not pause or rewind. I never changed the channel. 
Then to test it, I hit the record button, waited about 10 mins, went to list, found the program I thought I was recording, hit play, nothing but black screen.


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

Marty's request is to buffer the last 90 minutes of content shown on the screen. If he watchs 20 minutes of ESPN, click sover to Discovery Times for 30 minutes and then 40 minutes of Food network, Marty would like to see all 3 in the buffer not just the last 40 minutes of the Food Network.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

beer_geek said:


> Marty's request is to buffer the last 90 minutes of content shown on the screen. If he watchs 20 minutes of ESPN, click sover to Discovery Times for 30 minutes and then 40 minutes of Food network, Marty would like to see all 3 in the buffer not just the last 40 minutes of the Food Network.


Well that would be 90 min of buffer, which might be able to do, but I wonder how many users would want it. It seems [to me] that if the users wanted to go back, pressing the record button would give them that along with the rest of the show.
I understand your point, but wonder how useful it would be to have only "bits" of several programs.


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Well that would be 90 min of buffer, which might be able to do, but I wonder how many users would want it. It seems [to me] that if the users wanted to go back, pressing the record button would give them that along with the rest of the show.
> I understand your point, but wonder how useful it would be to have only "bits" of several programs.


I can see it being useful to cover a mistake. Say you've paused a program to answer the door. It takes you 20 minutes to buy those Tag-a-longs. You come pack to the TV and hit the wrong button on the remote. You just lost the buffer.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

beer_geek said:


> I can see it being useful to cover a mistake. Say you've paused a program to answer the door. It takes you 20 minutes to buy those Tag-a-longs. You come pack to the TV and hit the wrong button on the remote. You just lost the buffer.


Yeah, that makes sense. 
[Poor work around: don't pause and then just rewind.]


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

MartyS said:


> I would just like even the SINGLE live buffer to just buffer. Why in the hell does it have to clear the buffer when I change a channel? Why can't it just show the last 90 minutes of what I was watching, regardless of channel changes


Even the almighty TIVO won't do that. There's a limit to what can and will get buffered. Even with TIVO's DLB, should you navigate to a 3rd channel, you've lost one buffer.


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## premio (Sep 26, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> Totally agree with your spirit, and if it weren't for a few bad folks in the world everything would be open source. There was a time when all programming was custom and you got a full code reference as well as working code. That was a long, long time ago, before intellectual property lawyers had to get involved.


But someone COULD start to code their own from scratch and just use the HR20's hardware?


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## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

premio said:


> But someone COULD start to code their own from scratch and just use the HR20's hardware?


No, you couldn't. Nobody knows the correct parameters for decoding DirecTV content when it comes to the access card.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Well it happened again. 

Last night while watching _Cash Cab_, it cleared the buffer when we exited the recording.

Here the order of things...

1. _Cash Cab_ started recording at 6pm.
2. From about 5:15pm we were watching the local news and had previously paused, restarted and "caught up". 
3. At 6:26pm we went to list and started watching _Cash Cab_. The buffer was in tact. 
4. At 6:49pm we finished & deleted _Cash Cab_. By now the _ABC World News_ was on but no buffer.

Since 0x17E I haven't seen this problem. I was hoping but....

:soapbox:
The lack of DLB is very disappointing but when the SLB doesn't work it's down right disheartening. 
Now to find out that it continues to be an issue even with the latest software release (0x17E)...

Exit out of a recording....Hey that looks interesting lets back up....
OH WAIT, I CAN'T BECAUSE THERE'S *NO BLEEPING LIVE BLEEPING BUFFER* :grrr:
I shouldn't return to live TV after watching a recording and find the buffer gone. 
I shouldn't have to use a "work around".
*I SHOULDN'T EVEN HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT AT ALL!!!*

*SLB needs to operate flawlessly and be completely transparent*. 
I'm tired of hearing..."_Why don't you just hit record... or just do this... or just do that_"

Most of us know how difficult it is to explain things to someone isn't tech savy? 
The very concept of a live buffer itself can be hard to grasp. 
Now try to tell that person all the various work arounds they need to do to keep it working. Oh and by the way, *even D* can't make that happen.*

*I REALLY CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THIS FAR ALONG THE SINGLE LIVE BUFFER STILL DOESN'T WORK!!

Does D* even know this is a problem???*

I don't want to hear that the processor/memory/power supply/heat build up/space aliens or stray quarks make it impossible for SLB/DLB to work properly.
IMHO...All the hardware short commings you can come up with are a load of crap. 
*THE HR20 DOES SLB/DLB NOW...THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE SOFTWARE.
FIX THE BLEEPING LIVE BLEEPING BUFFERS*

Mike


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Im under the impression that SLB is being worked on, from previous readings of posts and NOT from any inside info....(i barely have inside info on whats happening in my house  )


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Well it happened again.
> 
> Last night while watching _Cash Cab_, it cleared the buffer when we exited the recording.
> 
> Since 0x17E I haven't seen this problem. I was hoping but....


I am sorry to hear that. I was about to leave praise that this has finally been repaired. I have not had a failure for over a week. I will keep aware of this.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

armophob said:


> I am sorry to hear that. I was about to leave praise that this has finally been repaired. I have not had a failure for over a week. I will keep aware of this.


There was another poster who had the problem after the latest software update.

This was on 30JUL07. I've been watching and didn't have a problem. I began to think it was fixed. When it happened I just couldn't believe it. Then it happened again later in evening but I wasn't keeping track of the sequence of events so I didn't include it.

I still can't believe it's still a problem. 

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Well it's still a problem in HR20-700/0x18a.

I started recording something this morning at about 5am.

Then, at 5:02am I changed channels to watch the local news.

I watched a segment, after which, came a preview of the weather. Dr. Mel then said that coming up will be "_your complete forecast in less than 8 minutes_"

Cool, I'll watch something from the list and come back to watch the weather (ya see where this is going, right?).

At 5:22 I stop the previously recorded show I was watching (using the exit button) so that I could rewind to the weather.

THERE'S NO BLEEPING LIVE BLEEPING BUFFER...AGAIN!!!!! :bad_nono:

My experience has been limited to a couple of HDVR2s and a HR10 but I've never seen this before the HR20.

Has anybody else ever seen this in a previous DVR? How about any D* SD DVR?

Is this unique to the HR20?

Mike


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

I think I've pretty much concluded that the only way to handle this is to record anything which you would otherwise expect to be kept in the buffer, and then go back and forth via the Playlist. Kind of a "forced" live buffer. Then I delete the item later as part of my daily cleanup. It's a little clunky, but it always works.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> I think I've pretty much concluded that the only way to handle this is to record anything which you would otherwise expect to be kept in the buffer, and then go back and forth via the Playlist. Kind of a "forced" live buffer. Then I delete the item later as part of my daily cleanup. It's a little clunky, but it always works.


You're right, it does prevent anything from being lost. 
I just don't like to have to do it. Plus, it's hard to explain the everyone in the family the how & why. Try explaining to you 70+ year old in-laws the work arounds to do what they could do before with a simple push of a button.

Even though that's how most of us deal with it, the *one and only live buffer *we have shouldn't need a work around. 

Mike


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Agree. Frankly, I'm surprised they can figure out how to turn everything on and off. Imagine the fear, loathing, and intrepidation every time they reach for the remote...


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> Agree. Frankly, I'm surprised they can figure out how to turn everything on and off. Imagine the fear, loathing, and intrepidation every time they reach for the remote...


After trying to follow steps written on a note pad, they canceled and went back to basic cable.


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## KTrentLR (Nov 3, 2007)

Okay, this just happend (almost exact same scenario): Roommate was watching football, I didn't care for the teams so I asked if we could watch a recorded show. I almost said, "Punch the record button just to be safe." But, I didn't.

Needless to say after watching the show, when we went back to the game, the channel had not changed, yet the buffer was gone. The other channel had changed to record South Park. But the live/active channel had not; and still the buffer was lost.

I had to hear the tirates of Tivo this, and Tivo that, why did we lose the buffer when the channel wasn't changed!?

Any update on a fix for this issue?

(didn't mean to dredge up such a heated post, but didn't feel the need in opening a new one.)

See sig. for setup info.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

KTrentLR said:


> Any update on a fix for this issue?


Matter of fact .... YES .... It seems this long standing issue should be fixed in your next national software release. The cutting edge people have been testing the fix for the last few weeks.


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## Shield (Dec 24, 2007)

God Bless you SuperVolcano if this is true!


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

Any idea when this release will occur?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Shield said:


> God Bless you SuperVolcano if this is true!


Trust me on this, I've been testing this in every CE since October.

It _seems_ to be fixed in the latest CE.

I try to test it out almost every day and haven't been to reproduce in the past two CEs in this cycle. 

Mike


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

jdspencer said:


> Any idea when this release will occur?


No one knows, not even Directv.
A safe guess would be some time in the next couple months.


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## KTrentLR (Nov 3, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> Matter of fact .... YES .... It seems this long standing issue should be fixed in your next national software release. The cutting edge people have been testing the fix for the last few weeks.


Can't wait! I just read the CE info. Was gone during the last CE!


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## Green23 (Oct 19, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> Matter of fact .... YES .... It seems this long standing issue should be fixed in your next national software release. The cutting edge people have been testing the fix for the last few weeks.


That sure would be great


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