# AM21/HR24-500 is bad news



## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi All
Over the last year or so, I have tried to use an AM21 with my HR24-500 with numerous OTA failures (YES DELETE/NO DON'T DELETE) with no recording of the show.
Removing the AM21 from the HR24-500 solves the problem, but I want to use my AM21. Reading the posts here has indicated that the problem has been fixed so I rehook up the AM21, cross my fingers and change my "to do" list from SAT to OTA again.
Everything looked good for about a week then last night CSI Miami came up with the YES/NO delete screen. History shows the CSI Miami two times for the same time. One "canceled", the other shows "Recorded". Neither will play. No power or weather problems in the area.

Has any one had DTV replace a HR24-500 because of this problem?

My system consists of an H23, a HR24-500 with an AM21 with "non supported" WHV and LNB3 swm 454 software.

SSTV
since94


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

I see you're in the Dallas market, so why do you like OTA? Signal issues in storms? PQ? Sub channels? I'm not knocking you, just curious is all. IMO, we get great PQ for locals, unlike some places.


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi Sigma
OTA is usually bullet proof when storms roll thru plus many subchannels are not on the SAT.

SSTV


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Marginal signal strength will create your'e problem.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Agreed... what are your signal strengths with the AM21?


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Agreed... what are your signal strengths with the AM21?


My signals are 90 to 100 across the band. Dallas is a great place for OTA as most of the stations are located at one place south of the city.

SSTV


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

It looks like a no win situation. I think I will call DTV and see if they will swap the HR24-500 for something that works.
I'am starting to miss my HR20-100 because it worked.

SSTV


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

Odd situation.
My HR24-500 and AM21 have been great for months. And I was very disappointed at first.

I know you stated your signals are great but go back and check them out on the station that gave you recording problems. Watch that signal strength for a minute or two. Does it fluctuate alot? Meaning 10 points or more? Even if it fluctuates from 100 to 85, thats a problem known as multipath (usually) and can destroy a recording.


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

NR4P said:


> Odd situation.
> My HR24-500 and AM21 have been great for months. And I was very disappointed at first.
> 
> I know you stated your signals are great but go back and check them out on the station that gave you recording problems. Watch that signal strength for a minute or two. Does it fluctuate alot? Meaning 10 points or more? Even if it fluctuates from 100 to 85, thats a problem known as multipath (usually) and can destroy a recording.


Hi NR4P
Looks like a HAM call sign. KC5YQ here.
I checked CH 11.1/CBS for aprox 5 minutes and it never went below 100%.
I have a good outdoor antenna, up high and never have any kind of reception problems except for the HR24-500/AM21. Last night I lost a recording from ch 5.1/NBC which has a signal of 95%.
Of all the HR24 receivers, the HR24-500 is a dog as noted from the posts from many people. I'am glad yours is working.

SSTV


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

sstv said:


> Hi NR4P
> Looks like a HAM call sign. KC5YQ here.
> I checked CH 11.1/CBS for aprox 5 minutes and it never went below 100%.
> I have a good outdoor antenna, up high and never have any kind of reception problems except for the HR24-500/AM21. Last night I lost a recording from ch 5.1/NBC which has a signal of 95%.
> ...


I wonder if yours is getting too much signal.
I don't have the luxury of those levels because of mountain ridges, so "on a good day" I'm in the 50-70% range.
I have a HR24-500, HR20-700, and my Sony TV.
The HR20 has the worst reception and my TV & AM-21 will pickup signals when the HR20 doesn't.


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I wonder if yours is getting too much signal.
> I don't have the luxury of those levels because of mountain ridges, so "on a good day" I'm in the 50-70% range.
> I have a HR24-500, HR20-700, and my Sony TV.
> The HR20 has the worst reception and my TV & AM-21 will pickup signals when the HR20 doesn't.


That might be the problem. I will hook up the rabbit ears and see what happens.

SSTV


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

My HR20 was terrible at OTA but my AM21 w/ HR24-200 has been flawless. Have you checked to see that the connections are all nice and tight and that there is enough copper exposed in the cable to make good contact?


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

SPACEMAKER said:


> My HR20 was terrible at OTA but my AM21 w/ HR24-200 has been flawless. Have you checked to see that the connections are all nice and tight and that there is enough copper exposed in the cable to make good contact?


Everything is clean and tight. I'am trying rabbit ears now to see if VOS was right.
Your lucky, the HR24-200 is a whole lot better then the -500 from what I have read.

SSTV


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

sstv said:


> Everything is clean and tight. I'am trying rabbit ears now to see if VOS was right.
> Your lucky, the HR24-200 is a whole lot better then the -500 from what I have read.
> 
> SSTV


While the -500 is a bit different, mine has been good for over a year.


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

sstv said:


> Everything is clean and tight. I'am trying rabbit ears now to see if VOS was right.
> Your lucky, the HR24-200 is a whole lot better then the -500 from what I have read.
> 
> SSTV


Yeah, I would have been heartbroken after buying an AM21 off ebay only to have an HR24 that didn't work well with it. I'd been battling OTA multi-path issues since I started with D* in the fall of 2007. It's great to be able to finally be able to watch and record HD locals without a problem.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

"sstv" said:


> Everything is clean and tight. I'am trying rabbit ears now to see if VOS was right.
> Your lucky, the HR24-200 is a whole lot better then the -500 from what I have read.
> 
> SSTV


Let us know if that's the issue. I have a number of stations at 100% with some towers only a few miles away and don't have any issues.

If the rabbit ears don't help, a long shot could be the USB cable. Might try another one.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

NR4P said:


> Let us know if that's the issue. I have a number of stations at 100% with some towers only a few miles away and don't have any issues.
> 
> If the rabbit ears don't help, a long shot could be the USB cable. Might try another one.


 if the USB cable was an issue, how would the receiver be able to display signal levels?

100% only means you have a good quality signal, but it doesn't show RF levels. If one were to use a very [good] large antenna when one isn't needed, you might over drive the receiver.


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi All
To clear up how this AM21/HR24-500 is operating:
1. The system works fine for normal OTA viewing so USB cables or strong OTA signals do not appear to be the problem.

2. The problem only shows up when recording OTA and is not isolated to any particular channel.

3. Now we have to isolate what was going on when the problem occurred.
A. How many OTA'S were being recorded at the same time, 1 or 2. In this instance, it was 2 OTA CBS/ABC
B. Was it 1 OTA and 1 SAT

4. Which tuners were involved.

This thing can get out of hand very quick

SSTV
B.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> if the USB cable was an issue, how would the receiver be able to display signal levels?
> 
> 100% only means you have a good quality signal, but it doesn't show RF levels. If one were to use a very [good] large antenna when one isn't needed, you might over drive the receiver.


Like I wrote, I was thinking of long shots with the USB cable. They don't have locking clips like RJ's and can be intermittant.

I am about 2.5 miles from four TV transmitting antennas. One is a megawatt ERP and if anyone has too much signal, it would be me. Particularly with a pole mounted 25db amp for the distant signals. Took some antenna work to eliminate a multipath problem on one. But every situation is different.



sstv said:


> Hi All
> To clear up how this AM21/HR24-500 is operating:
> 1. The system works fine for normal OTA viewing so USB cables or strong OTA signals do not appear to be the problem.
> 
> ...


Good info. Two OTA's recording at once. I can try that soon.
May be not have had that occur for me in a long time.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Based on what others have reported, some of the HR24-500 units do have problems with some AM21 units. I'd recommend getting another model of DVR such as the HR24-100, otherwise you could get stuck with another bad HR24-500 unit.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

sstv said:


> Hi All
> To clear up how this AM21/HR24-500 is operating:
> 1. The system works fine for normal OTA viewing so USB cables or strong OTA signals do not appear to be the problem.
> 
> ...


While working with some test firmware, I had some instances keep/delete "recordings". The NR didn't seem to give me these last weekend.
In my case, OTA always recorded, but only one SAT tuner would and the other always gave the keep/delete. This tuner also had problems with live buffer, where if I skipped back into it everything would freeze until a channel change to dump the buffer.
Using double play, I was able to quickly check/test the tuners and their live buffer. If the buffer was hosed, so would be a recording off that tuner.
Since this was a SAT tuner, I needed to get it working so at first the work a round was to reset the OTA settings [disable the AM-21] which got both SAT tuners working again. I repeated this several times. With AM-21 activated both OTA tuners worked fine, but only one SAT did. Disable OTA and both SAT tuners worked fine.
I tried another version of test firmware and basically had the same thing, but couldn't get both SAT tuners working by disabling the AM-21 through the menu.
Since two SAT tuners was more important than the AM-21, I moved back to the NR and had all four tuners function. Then I read posts about others that weren't having this problem, and being a sucker for abuse, I downloaded the test firmware again.
Again it had one bad SAT tuner and three good tuners.
No matter what I seemed to do/try, this always seemed to be the case.

Then I pulled the USB cable. Both SAT tuners worked!!!!
Then I pulled the USB cable back in, checked the SAT tuners before setting up the AM-21, and the tuners still worked.
Next I setup the AM-21, and to my surprise, all four tuners worked.

In a bug free world, this doesn't make sense, so there is a bug, but this was with test firmware and "for me" the NR didn't do this.

I wonder how close your problems are to this and if any of the steps I went through would affect yours?


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi Vos
I never had a problem with recording 2 sat programs at the same time. It has always been a OTA problem.
It looks like I will have to dig a little deeper.
Thanks everyone for the discussion in the care and feeding of the HR24-500.

SSTV


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

sstv said:


> Hi Vos
> I never had a problem with recording 2 sat programs at the same time. It has always been a OTA problem.
> It looks like I will have to dig a little deeper.
> Thanks everyone for the discussion in the care and feeding of the HR24-500.
> ...


I'd look at the live buffers off the AM-21 tuners.
Another thing might be to pull the power cord for a good 15 mins and see if things change when it boots up.
If you're on the NR, the code "should be good", but there may be a glitch in the hardware, as my experience showed.


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## usnret (Jan 16, 2009)

Well, I was getting ready to purchase an AM-21 to hook up to my 24-500 (I have a 22-200 MVR'd to it), so that I can dump my TIVO HD that I use for OOA recording. But now maybe I should wait? Just wondering how safe the hook up would be now. It appears that its a problem with the 500 tuners right? Am running the newest FW on both the 24 and 22.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

usnret said:


> Well, I was getting ready to purchase an AM-21 to hook up to my 24-500 (I have a 22-200 MVR'd to it), so that I can dump my TIVO HD that I use for OOA recording. But now maybe I should wait? Just wondering how safe the hook up would be now. *It appears that its a problem with the 500 tuners right?* Am running the newest FW on both the 24 and 22.


"yes & no", which would make this hard to determine what your experience would be. "mine works" :shrug:


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

Just to amuse myself, I did set up two OTA recordings simultaneously on my HR24-500/AM21.

All was good. Don't know why it isn't for sstv.

Too bad it wouldn't be practical or permitted to swap hardware across the country. But it would be an interesting test to eliminate either equipment or location. Might learn something but we can't do it. Thats up to Directv to figure out.


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## dmricke (Dec 15, 2006)

I also haven't had very good luck recording OTA. I have an AM-21/HR24-500 and an HR2-700 fed by an antenna system that consistently delivers 90 - 100% signal levels.

Live viewing of the OTA stations is almost always good.

Programs recorded from the CBS station become heavily pixellated and unwatchable about 50% of the time. One theory from another thread was that since this station doesn't have any sub-channels the bit rate might be too high for the receiver.

Recordings from the ABC station usually look good but often will not have any trickplay functionality. Attempting to FF or skip will cause playback to jump back to the start of the program. This behavior sometimes shows up in the live buffer too.

I haven't identified any reproducible patterns yet since SWMBO quickly reaches her tolerance level when her favorite shows fail and I have to find them on the internet.

For now we've gone back to the SD LIL versions until the schedule lightens up enough that I can make some OTA test recordings.


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## Maruuk (Dec 5, 2007)

My AM21/HR24-500 had at least one prominent missing OTA channel when first installed, but within an hour or so a new forced D/L rebooted my rig and after that the channels returned and have been fine since.


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## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

I had some pretty bad issues with HR24-500s and AM21s when I first got them several months ago - immediate keep or delete on about 1/3 of OTA recordings. 

I also had issues with -100s. They couldn't seem to handle 2 simultaneous OTA streams. 

I haven't tried the 100s with OTA for a while, but my 500s are working well now. Once in a great while, I'll have a blank (immediate keep or delete) OTA recording but it's now rare enough that I can chalk it up to a momentary signal loss or other oddities. It doesn't happen often enough any more to really be much of a problem. Nothing in my setup has really changed, so I assume that an NR software version did a lot to help at some point. 

Just wanted to throw in another data point.


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi All
After reading the in depth check out by Vos, I could see that my problem was not tuner related. The end result was the same, NO RECORD, but getting to that result was different. So I said ,what the hell, pull the USB cable, give it short pause and plug it back in.
Shazam, everything has worked as it should for the last week. Only time will tell if this is a solution or if I might have to pull the cable again.

And for those that dont know what a SHAZAM is, you have to go back to the late 1940's and early 1950's. This the word that Billy Batson would say when he became CAPTAIN MARVEL in the comic books


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi all
I got a couple of "KEEP/DELETE" the last few days, so the problem is still there.
DTV is sending out a Tech to check things out.
I have no idea how you check out a random problem so it should be interesting.

SSTV


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi All
No real solution but I found out that my AM21 does not like the signal to be in the low 
80's. This is when the record problem shows up.
I used an ATTENUATOR to drop signals down to 80% and got lots of recrding failures on all channels. 80% is the drop dead signal level for my AM21 as far as recording goes, viewing still works fine. Go figure.

In an unrelated problem, I was seeing very brief pixilation and audio breakup at random times. Not a big problem but it was there.
Since my system is a WHV hr24/h23 non supported and I did'nt have anything better to do, I put a BAND STOP filter between the splitter and the non green LNB and the problem went away. I bet the HR24 is putting some noise on the coax even though the internal DECA is turned OFF or the U-Verse router I am using for WHV is doing it.

SSTV 
Since 94


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

sstv said:


> Hi All
> No real solution but I found out that my AM21 does not like the signal to be in the low
> 80's. This is when the record problem shows up.
> I used an ATTENUATOR to drop signals down to 80% and got lots of recrding failures on all channels. 80% is the drop dead signal level for my AM21 as far as recording goes, viewing still works fine. Go figure.
> ...


Your situation has me completely mystified. I've never observed a difference between viewing/recording threshold. Mine measured out at 40% or so for both viewing and recording. (I never found an instance where the signal was viewable with no breakups, and it wouldn't record, no matter what the level was. Very strange. Keep in mind, you aren't looking at signal strength with those percentage numbers, rather you are seeing the inverse of the bit-error-rate (BER), or some approximation thereof. (which is a measure of QUALITY, not quantity)

If your signal is stable at 70% (no bounce), you should be able to record just fine, unless there is something really hinky about the 24 series. I don't have one...all of mine are 20's or 21's. The 21-100 and H21-200 both have AM21's on them, and I've not been able to duplicate your problem on them. (I have a variable attenuator that I can insert to drop signal levels). On the other hand, if I introduce multi-path (as shown by percentage bounce), I can kill viewing much more quickly than simply reducing signal amplitude.

I'm wondering if your attenuator is introducing phase-shift (if it is poorly designed, for example), and you are seeing a combo of reduced strength and increased ghosting (as in multi-path).

There just isn't a great explanation for what you are experiencing, unless there is something particularly hinky with the 24 series. Let us know how it all turns out, as it is quite a mystery!


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

makes me wonder about signal issues too.. maybe mutipath?
I have 2 hr24-500/am21 combos and can't remember a missed ota in a long time..
my ant was carefully tuned for them tho..


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your problems. Was worried when I first got my AM21 months ago, but it has worked flawlessly on my 500.


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi All
Just a follow up.
A recording from the AM21 was made last night. The recording is OK but FAST FORWARD from the remote locks the recording. Holding down the fast forward button will jump about 15 minutes and the recording will play OK. Try another fast formard and the recording locks up again.
Recordings from the SAT in the same time frame work OK.
Now the tricky part. The AM21 recording works OK on my H23. No lock ups, good fast forward, works normally. HR24 seems to be the problem so a "PULL THE PLUG" was tried and results are still bad. Called DTV and they are looking into it. Also the dimming of the front panel using the LEFT/RIGHT buttons only works on a random basis. It might dim after many button hits but never in 2 or 3.
I am doomed.

SSTV


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## bap427 (May 6, 2011)

Hi, I am new to Direct from Dish. With my Dish Vip 622 I could record 2 programs while watching another. Will adding an AM-21 allow me to do that with an HR24 receiver?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

bap427 said:


> Hi, I am new to Direct from Dish. With my Dish Vip 622 I could record 2 programs while watching another. Will adding an AM-21 allow me to do that with an HR24 receiver?


:welcome_s

I could be wrong, but I think adding OTA to a DISH DVR allows you to simultaneously record a _third _stream (and watch a fourth).

The HR's are designed to record 2 streams and watch a third. Adding the AM21 allows one or two of those streams to be OTA, but doesn't increase the number of streams you can record.


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

bap427 said:


> Hi, I am new to Direct from Dish. With my Dish Vip 622 I could record 2 programs while watching another. Will adding an AM-21 allow me to do that with an HR24 receiver?


Adding an AM21 will allow you to record two "Over the air" or one "Over the air" and one "Sat" plus view a recording at the same time.

SSTV


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

bap427 said:


> Hi, I am new to Direct from Dish. With my Dish Vip 622 I could record 2 programs while watching another. Will adding an AM-21 allow me to do that with an HR24 receiver?


The important thing to remember here is only 2 live streams. 2 OTA, or 2 SAT, or one of each. While the live streams are happening, you could watch a previously recorded program, and potentially watch something previously recorded on a remote system if you had Whole Home setup as well.


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## bap427 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks to everyone. I am disappointed as I want to record 2 streams simultaneously 4 nights a week. With Dish I was able to do this and watch another live program at the same time. I never figured that I would lose that capability.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

Where is the DVR, and where are you wanting to watch Live TV? If the DVR is in the living room and you want to watch live TV in the living room while recording 2 things, then swap the DVR with a receiver from another room that isn't used as often. With Whole Home DVR you can watch the recordings anywhere in the house, so it doesn't matter where the DVR is located.

For example I record most of the Monday night shows my wife and I watch in either the bedroom or living room, because I know I want at least one tuner free in the theater room for Monday Night Football. After the football game is over I can still watch those recordings in the theater room if I want because I have Whole Home DVR.


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## bap427 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks Beerstalker. I do have whole home so this seems like a workable option.


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