# Expected R15 Life-cycle?



## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

I have seen a post that has "claimed" that DirecTV does not plan to keep the R15 in service beyond a year, or two at the most. While the R15 certainly has some issues, I hardly believe they can not be overcome assuming it is not a hardware issue (such as an undersized processor).

Has anyone heard anything "remotely" similar? Given the R15 interface is identical to the newer existing boxes and the upcoming HD DVR, media center, etc. I just don't see it as the likely outcome.

My concern (beyond the R15 is not ready, yet) is with the HD DVR planned to be released later this year. If the the kinks don't get worked out relatively quickly they could become embedded in the platform and even more difficult to correct. Conversely, will the HD DVR be based on a totally different platform?

So, will the R15 get "fixed" prior to the HD DVR, or will the HD DVR be a repeat of the R15 experience? ...is the R15 a dead end?


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

It's a bit unclear, but I highly suspect that the R15 will not be a client to the media center. The media center is going to do at least some of it's recording in MPEG-4, which R15 would not be capable of rendering. I think R15 is the single-room, SD DVR (and probably will be for some time to come), but that the thin client to the media center is new hardware.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Yea, I totally agree that it is highly unlikely to be part of the media center. I'd expect the media center to support both MPEG-2 and 4 as well, but I really don't see the R15 as being a component in that specific mix. It would be better to the consumer and DTV to just swap out the R15 for a thin client (ignoring the lease issue).

The thin clients should be cheaper for DTV and its customers, and make the R15 a moot point for the media center adopters. If you have the media center, what is the point of recording a show on the R15 that you can't share with your other boxes. In that situation I could see the R15 being shifted to a "guest room," RV...or some other place that gets minimal use.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

walters said:


> It's a bit unclear, but I highly suspect that the R15 will not be a client to the media center. The media center is going to do at least some of it's recording in MPEG-4, which R15 would not be capable of rendering. I think R15 is the single-room, SD DVR (and probably will be for some time to come), but that the thin client to the media center is new hardware.


I thought I had heard in other post that the R15 could decode MPEG-4. The only reason that it is not doing that now is due to no SD MPEG-4 streams. I could be wrong about the MPEG-4 but I know I remember reading it


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Fairly sure that's a "no" on MPEG-4. It's an STi5528 inside. But I could be wrong.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

I would still except the R-15 to be around many many years from now just like the DirecTiVos. All the limitations your saying about the R-15 are way more so for the DirecTiVos as DirecTV isnt even going to support them after next year. I would think the DirecTiVos would die out and become less usable long before the R-15.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Point taken about the various (S1, S2, S2.5) DVR boxes released from 1 to 6 years ago. But this thread is about the curious fact that this thing doesn't appear to fit completely into DirecTV's technical roadmap pretty much from the day it was released.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

walters said:


> Point taken about the various (S1, S2, S2.5) DVR boxes released from 1 to 6 years ago. But this thread is about the curious fact that this thing doesn't appear to fit completely into DirecTV's technical roadmap pretty much from the day it was released.


Just curious, why would DTV pay as many folks as they have to take new equiptment off their hands?


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> Just curious, why would DTV pay as many folks as they have to take new equiptment off their hands?


I recognise you statement was a response to walters, but I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

Thanks.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

walters said:


> Fairly sure that's a "no" on MPEG-4. It's an STi5528 inside. But I could be wrong.


Earl or Wolfpack, since your the only two that I know have open the R15 up. Can either of you shed some light on this?


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Oh, I'm right about it being an STi5528. I got that from Earl's pictures. I'm just not sure whether that chip supports only MPEG-2. According to that link, that is the case. But maybe they got a "special version" of that chip from ST with MPEG-4 support.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Ok, I missunderstood. If it is only MPEG-2 I'm really suprised they even bothered making the R15 with it. It seems backwards from where D* wants to go.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Dont forget that SD programming wont be going mpeg4 for several years if not longer......so the R15 has plenty of life cycle in it, as do all SD mpeg2 only receivers....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> Dont forget that SD programming wont be going mpeg4 for several years if not longer.


If EVER...

That would be well over 30 million recievers that would have to be swapped out upgraded........


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

FYI, I just exchanged information with the poster who made the claim the DTV planned to phase out the R15 in a year or two. Total bunk.

The claim was that it was on the 2/22/06 presentation by DTV. Clearly it is not.

So, I guess I'm back to "they need to fix this thing relatively soon" since they should have a HD DVR out in the "near" future (according to their statements). It is bad enough having one product out there that does not perform well. I'd really dislike that number go to two then, goodness forbid, work itself in to the home media center.

More troubling...

The presentation DID plainly say the box is built off of "NDS technology" which if you have ever paid attention to the BskyB DVR complaints (also NDS technology -- News Corp family) I'm starting to get very worried. The problems that are talked about with the R15 have been discussed for YEARS with the BskyB DVR's.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

I've said it more than once, but I guess it bears repeating. XTV (the NDS platform R15 is based on) is about as old as my DSR6000.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

walters said:


> I've said it more than once, but I guess it bears repeating. XTV (the NDS platform R15 is based on) is about as old as my DSR6000.


Well I have heard soooo many times "this is DirecTV's software -- not NDS" that I thought it was well worth repeating, since it was directly out of the mouth of DirecTV's CEO.

Yea, XTV, XTVtoGO, the multi-room view, etc. (all NDS), are very plainly what the R15 is, and what DTV has planned for the future. I have said it more than a few times myself (not much here though ). Before the R15 was released I spent a fair amount of time looking into NDS/XTV and reading the BskyB DVR forums, and as I'm sure you know it ain't pretty.

I'm the least optimistic about the DirecTV DVRs as I have been. If they could not get it right after so many years with XTV it is pretty damn foolish to think "just wait for the next upgrade" and that will take care of it.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

morgantown said:


> I recognise you statement was a response to walters, but I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?
> 
> Thanks.


Sorry I'm so slow getting back to you. A lot on my DVR's to watch.

What I was saying (or trying) is that it did not make sense that if 4 months after they released the R15,which basically they were giving away free(rebate) brand new equiptment, than DTV is a whole lot dumber than any of us could imagine.

It just would make no sense at all. Though I think some of their decisions are not good ones, that one is just too far out there.

Back to the ACC Tourney!


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> Sorry I'm so slow getting back to you. A lot on my DVR's to watch.
> 
> What I was saying (or trying) is that it did not make sense that if 4 months after they released the R15,which basically they were giving away free(rebate) brand new equiptment, than DTV is a whole lot dumber than any of us could imagine.
> 
> ...


Actually I can't imagine how they could charge for the R15 at all until they get it to do what it was designed to do (presumably), work as a DVR  .

Back to the Big East Tourney    !

Edit: and obviously nothing to apologize for...but thanks for taking the time to clarify.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

walters said:


> Point taken about the various (S1, S2, S2.5) DVR boxes released from 1 to 6 years ago. But this thread is about the curious fact that this thing doesn't appear to fit completely into DirecTV's technical roadmap pretty much from the day it was released.


I don't understand why you say it doesn't fit in their plans?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

morgantown said:


> Well I have heard soooo many times "this is DirecTV's software -- not NDS" that I thought it was well worth repeating, since it was directly out of the mouth of DirecTV's CEO.
> 
> Yea, XTV, XTVtoGO, the multi-room view, etc. (all NDS), are very plainly what the R15 is, and what DTV has planned for the future. I have said it more than a few times myself (not much here though ). Before the R15 was released I spent a fair amount of time looking into NDS/XTV and reading the BskyB DVR forums, and as I'm sure you know it ain't pretty.
> 
> I'm the least optimistic about the DirecTV DVRs as I have been. If they could not get it right after so many years with XTV it is pretty damn foolish to think "just wait for the next upgrade" and that will take care of it.


Wow, I'm out for a few meetings this afternoon and boom, questions asked and answered. Cool.

Morgantown, not to pick on you, just grabbed your post to reply to.

The "Volume ID" on the R15 disk is "XTV_STR_DSK". If that ain't an NDS fingerprint, I don't know what is.

Also, as far as the "life" of the R15 goes, if one were sceptical, one could say the R15 was a unit that needed to get to market for the investors sake. DTV announced the end of the Tivo partnership quite a while ago yet had not produced the DTivos replacement. It would stand to reason the investor community was starting to question where this "new technology" was.

As we have seen, the R15 was not ready for release and many can say still isn't. To those who would say this was a stop gap product to a) appease investors and b) get market experience, I would agree. If that's true, I would not expect a long life for the R15.

Think about it. I received my R15 for $16.00. I also received a RCA DVR39 under stand same agreement. Was this an "opps" by DTV, or was this a way to say they have "100,000 new technology DVR Plus units operational in the field since November"?

As far as the STi5528 processor goes, I have not seen where that can handle MPEG4 but I don't see any reason why it needs to. The R15 is a SD DVR and as Earl states, we're never going to see SD signals go to MPEG4.

Ok, I think that's it for me. Hey, I like this type of discussion in a discussion forum. Very refreshing. :righton: :righton:


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Well I would have to say I see no real reason for this to be a stop gap product. The issues with it are software issues and those would exsist regardless of the underlying hardware. I see no real reason that this box cannot do anything they need for the foreseeable future, built in ethernet isn't a huge deal to me (heck I own TiVos so that should tell you that) you simply plug in a USB ethernet or Wireless device and you are off and running.

Honestly regardless of who's software this is rolling out a new product like this is NOT a cheap endeavor by any means and I think D* would have a very hard time explaining to investors why they spent likely millions to put out a new piece of hardware for say a year or so. Most likely I would think if anything you will see this box around for at least a 24 month period along with it's HD counterpart and then at that point either a replacement SD box for it OR possibly another SD box at a higher price point (yes I know they are lease now) that has more built in gadgets and even more standard drive space.

When rolling out this sort of equipment you want to make the longest run possible on the current platform as to maximize your investment, a short 12 month or so run would be bad business in my eyes. Well thats just me 2.735 cents worth


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

OHH and BTW here is some info on the chip.

http://www.st.com/stonline/press/news/year2004/p1363p.htm

No MPEG4


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

morgantown said:


> Well I have heard soooo many times "this is DirecTV's software -- not NDS" that I thought it was well worth repeating, since it was directly out of the mouth of DirecTV's CEO.
> 
> Yea, XTV, XTVtoGO, the multi-room view, etc. (all NDS), are very plainly what the R15 is, and what DTV has planned for the future. I have said it more than a few times myself (not much here though ). Before the R15 was released I spent a fair amount of time looking into NDS/XTV and reading the BskyB DVR forums, and as I'm sure you know it ain't pretty.
> 
> I'm the least optimistic about the DirecTV DVRs as I have been. If they could not get it right after so many years with XTV it is pretty damn foolish to think "just wait for the next upgrade" and that will take care of it.


What kinds of problems where the people on those boards having? Is it the same as we are having with bad SL and missing records? Why would D* invest in a box that has a know track record for being crappy?


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> What kinds of problems where the people on those boards having? Is it the same as we are having with bad SL and missing records? Why would D* invest in a box that has a know track record for being crappy?


Basically yea the S/L's (and the whole "it is the guide data" discussion is a huge deja vu experience), freezing, etc. The same discussion about "well these model numbers (or release dates) seem to crash less" etc.

As to why would they invest...News Corp owns NDS and DTV, I guess it is more important to "keep it in the family" than anything else.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> Dont forget that SD programming wont be going mpeg4 for several years if not longer......so the R15 has plenty of life cycle in it, as do all SD mpeg2 only receivers....


I just wanted the MPEG-4 so we could cram more recordings on the disk.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Wow, I'm out for a few meetings this afternoon and boom, questions asked and answered. Cool.
> 
> Morgantown, not to pick on you, just grabbed your post to reply to.
> 
> ...


I guess that I was hoping beyond hope that the XTV "denials" could have a sliver of truth to them. I did see your previous post about the volume ID, so I guess I was in a little denial myself.

But that case is closed, the CEO, the software tags (even just a minute on the NDS website) this is NDS crap. The NDS track record can be summed up with a faithiful "just wait for the next upgrade, boy will that fix things!"

As far as your other comments, I agree. I too got a TiVo and R15 for $16 and had the same thoughts when that happened. I'm sure they are counting my inactive R15 in their headcount...and then bragging to the investment community to boot.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> I don't understand why you say it doesn't fit in their plans?


I'm just saying that, assuming it can participate in the media center network, they're going to have to explain to customers that certain recordings can't be played on it.

I expect the thin clients that will be designed for that network _will_ process MPEG-4, even if they only display SD, in which case they'll just downconvert to 480i. I think it would be an unacceptable limitation to tell people that, if you want to be able to watch this recording in another room, make sure you record the SD version.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

walters said:


> I expect the thin clients that will be designed for that network _will_ process MPEG-4, even if they only display SD, in which case they'll just downconvert to 480i. I think it would be an unacceptable limitation to tell people that, if you want to be able to watch this recording in another room, make sure you record the SD version.


Let's sure hope they do. Can you imagine shelling out big $$$ for a home system only to have some shows that can only be viewed on "the big TV"? :nono2:


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Let's sure hope they do. Can you imagine shelling out big $$$ for a home system only to have some shows that can only be viewed on "the big TV"? :nono2:


I guess I just see it differently I don't expect to be able to watch HD shows on my SD TV so why should I expect my SD DVR to play HD shows?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> I guess I just see it differently I don't expect to be able to watch HD shows on my SD TV so why should I expect my SD DVR to play HD shows?


Why not? Down convert to 480i.

Otherwise would we need to create a SL for CSI for both HD and SD in the event we may want to watch it from a non-HD TV? I've got one HDTV but I don't watch everything on it. If I do, I want to watch it in HD. Currently I do create duplicate Tivo Season Passes on the HDTivo and a SDTivo so I can do such as I've mentioned. I would hope that wouldn't be needed once the HMC is available.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Call me the eternal optimist, but I really don't see why the MHC thin clients would not do both SD and HD. Surely the HMC main unit will, so why not the clients?

But then again I don't even have a HD receiver, so it is not like I actually have any experience with it. Surely my little HDTV in the kitchen would look nice with HD programming, but $10.99 a month to just to watch TV in the kitchen just does seem worth it.

Back to the first question in the thread, it does appear as if there actually could be a rumor still flying around about a R20 (not H20 or HR20) as a relacement to the R15. But until I see something tangible, I'll consider it vaporware -- and I have seen nothing to date.


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