# 522 lease will soon be available to all subscribers!



## Jupiter (Aug 19, 2002)

Hopefully I am not repeating this info. If this has been previously posted, just ignore this message.

Today I emailed Charlie Ergen and asked him why current customers can't get the 522 and are not allowed to activate a 522 if they some how get a hold of one. He responded with in minutes...

Charlie:
_"522 is only available on our 'lease program' and not available for purchase. We will have a lease program for current customers towards the end of June as we have some software upgrades we have to do first. If you are going to hook up the dvr to only one tv ,,i would suggest our model 721 ..if you want to hook up to two tv's then you will need to wait on the 'release of the 522' to current customers later next month.

c"_

So it looks like everyone will be able to get their hands on a 522 soon. He says June, so that probably means July/August, but this is good news! Keep your fingers crossed!


----------



## boba (May 23, 2003)

Maybe they will even get the 522 debugged by then.


----------



## maddawg (Jan 25, 2003)

boba, keep on dreaming


----------



## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

I agree with Charlie, get the 721. I bought the 522 on ebay and got it activated a couple months back and didn't like the receiver features or bugs at all and really wanted the 721. When the price came down, I decided to just buy it and for now the 522 is in the closet.

The 721 is so much nicer than the 522. The only advantage the 522 does have it the two room TV option other than that, the 721 is far better with a faster program guide, more features, and on mine even better picture quality. So far I haven't regretted buying one although I do think that the price should be lowered from the $380 range. This receiver I'd say with 90 hours should be worth $299.


----------



## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

I wonder why he's going to offer the 522 as a lease rather than a purchase???


----------



## tm22721 (Nov 8, 2002)

My 721 is extremely stable compared to my 921 which still reboots twice or so a week. The 921 appears to have a lot of 'shrug your shoulder' bugs - those that can't be easily reproduced. This is indicative of timing issues like unsafe threads in the code requiring additional mutexes to be created, or mutex deadlocks that could be responsible for the reboots (receiver's watchdog times out).


----------



## cdru (Dec 4, 2003)

Anthony Falcone said:


> I wonder why he's going to offer the 522 as a lease rather than a purchase???


Because leasing is a cash cow and a semi-guarantee revenue stream. Why sell and loose all potential future sales of that machine when you can just lease it out for a guaranteed monthly price...and at the end of the lease get it back and give it to someone else.


----------



## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

cdru said:


> Because leasing is a cash cow and a semi-guarantee revenue stream. Why sell and loose all potential future sales of that machine when you can just lease it out for a guaranteed monthly price...and at the end of the lease get it back and give it to someone else.


Really.
Then why doesn't he lease all receivers? I think the lease plan is just to attain customers who don't see the logic in owning the equipment, especially those coming from cable.

Why would he lease a receiver for $5 a month and have to wait years to recoup the cost of that receiver when he could make an immediate profit by selling it to us. Let's say a receiver costs Dish $240 to manufacture; it would take 4 years for Charley to break even on that receiver, let alone make a profit on it.


----------



## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Leasing makes the fiancials look great. the leased boxes are shown as company assetts. They have to gie the boxes away to new subs anyway, so leasing is better for their bottom line

My 721 wasnt stable last night, it failed to record survivor and we got home late. it tuned to survivor, but didnt record and only had a 6 second buffer. its done that occasionally since the last software upgrade

we ended up watching it out of order, thanks to the west copast feeds, but at least we saw it...

The next sound you here will be a chains cutting down a 40 year old maple to make way for a direct tv dish.

The junk dish network has got to go. I felt bad for the advanced tech who was unfortunate enough to answer the phone last night 

will keep one box for sky angel


----------



## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

I guess that would be a good reason especially if Charley is considering selling. It just seems odd that he would start now.


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

So you have to pay $5.99 extra for the lease fee, $5 for the additional outlet fee ($10 total if the second tuner if not hooked to a phone line) and $5 for the DVR fee? That is REDICULOUS! Thats as much as $21 just to use a 522. Would be cheaper to own two seperate DVR's than the one, especially with the promotions to get a DVR cheap now.


----------



## BuckeyeChris (Apr 20, 2004)

I have the 522 and two 311 receivers feeding video to a total of four televisions through SBC/Dish. Below are my monthly charges copied directly from my SBC E-bill. As you can see, I am only charged $4.98 for the Video On Demand (VOD) fee for the 522; I leave the 522 connected to the phone line - this is no big deal as it has never caused any interruption to my phone service in the two months I have had this system. The two $5.00 charges are for the two 311 receivers. That's it, there are no extra fees for the 522.  

Miscellaneous Charges and Credits 

This section of the bill reflects charges and/or credits applied 
to your account. 
No. Date Description 

1 04-03 DISH VOD SERVICE FEE 4.98 

2 04-03 ADDITIONAL RECEIVER 5.00 

3 04-03 ADDITIONAL RECEIVER 5.00 

4 04-03 DIGTL HM ADV AMERICA'S TOP 120/LOCAL 39.99 

Total Miscellaneous Charges and Credits 54.97 

Taxes 

State at 6% 2.70 
Sales at 6.75% .68 
Total Taxes 3.38 

Total SBC DISH Network Charges 58.35


----------



## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

Can you hook a 721 up to DishPro Plus, one cable for both tuners? From what I recall, I don't think so. That would be another advantage to the 522.

Once the 522 is stabilized by mid-year wouldnt it be the best option? It has more attention paid to it for software updates, can support single TV mode OR dual TV mode and the UI seems pretty nice (is it the same as the 721?). I just have a 501 now and am debating whether to do the 721 or 522. I know the 522 comes with the DVR fees too.. that may be a killer alone.


----------



## cdru (Dec 4, 2003)

Anthony Falcone said:


> Really.
> Then why doesn't he lease all receivers? I think the lease plan is just to attain customers who don't see the logic in owning the equipment, especially those coming from cable.
> 
> Why would he lease a receiver for $5 a month and have to wait years to recoup the cost of that receiver when he could make an immediate profit by selling it to us. Let's say a receiver costs Dish $240 to manufacture; it would take 4 years for Charley to break even on that receiver, let alone make a profit on it.


As Bob said for financials mainly by maintaining them as assets. Why do auto companies lease cars to consumers? Why does Dell offer leases on computers? Some people would rather pay X amount of dollars for a product for a period of time instead of paying Y dollars up front. Cable companies have been doing this for years with cable boxes.

The only receiver Dish leases that would come close to production costs of $240 would be the 522. Any of the other receivers are considerably less then that. Refurbished 301s are $50 from Dish. Now it only takes 10 months to recoup the costs. After that it's gravy.

Let me give you an example. My company does sales and support for point-of-sale cash stations, printers, etc. We offer a "lease" like program for maitenance on printers. The printers have MSRP of around $280. Our customers know this as this is about what they paid for them. The montly "lease" fee for maitenance is $15. Many of our customers happily pay us and additional $180 a year...so every 18 months they pay for a new printer...except they still have their old one. Every now and then we have to send them a replacement printer, but in the long run its been great for us as the average rate of replacements is > 24 months.

To the average consumer, they don't look into the future. Right now Dish's main promotions are DHA and FFA. With DHA, you pay little or nothing up front, get a credit on your first month, and get up to 4 receivers free, including DVRs.

With FFA, you have to pay minimum $150 out of pocket expense just for one 301 receiver. Sure you get a credit back each month, but you are out the money initially.

Montly rates are a wash either way you go as you either pay an additional outlet fee or a lease fee. Things could be a little cheaper with DHA with dual tuner receivers.

So people look at it and say "Either I can spend $150 for a basic receiver (or even more if you want multiple or DVR) with a 15 month "contract" to get it free, or I can spend nothing now and get the same thing with no contract." Which looks more attractive to the average consumer? Sure in the long run they will have to return the equipment instead of owning it and being able to sell it someday, but most people don't care about that.


----------



## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

I understand the lease versus buy argument as pertains to customers, but Charley's business model up till now has always given the customer the choice. This is the first receiver where it seems that it can ONLY be leased. Why the sudden change? The financial position makes some sense especially if he is thinking of selling the company.

I assume that the majority of us on this forum own our receivers, aren't you guys bothered about being forced to lease the 522?


----------



## BuckeyeChris (Apr 20, 2004)

Anthony Falcone said:


> ...I assume that the majority of us on this forum own our receivers, aren't you guys bothered about being forced to lease the 522?


I lease mine and I would not consider purchasing the equipment unless it made sense financially. For each person, I suppose that is different. With all the technological advances that are happening so quickly, I don't want to drop $100 or more on a piece of equipment that could be obsolete in a year or two. I also don't want to be responsible for equipment repairs after the warranty has expired. Plus, if something goes wrong with it, my provider may deem it less expensive to provide me with brand new equipment rather than fix it.

If someone could show me an economic model where the average viewer, with say one to four receivers, could save money purchasing the equipment versus leasing it I would like to see it. I would also like to see in this model how long it takes for the savings to start.


----------



## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

I guess buying makes more sense financially when you first sign up and can get a deal on the receivers, especially free receivers.

When I sell my 6000 and 4900's soon, I should be ahead of the game dollarwise.


----------



## rrbhokies (May 10, 2004)

dmodemd said:


> Once the 522 is stabilized by mid-year wouldnt it be the best option? It has more attention paid to it for software updates, can support single TV mode OR dual TV mode and the UI seems pretty nice (is it the same as the 721?)


I looked at the online user manuals for the 721 and 522. They are similar, but the 522 has been tweaked. One think in particular I noted is with the 522, if you have a recurring event to tape a show at the same time every week, and on one particular week you want to record something else, with the 508/510/721, you have to delete the entire timer for your original show and have to remember to go back and set it back up the following week again. With the 522, I noticed there is now an option to "Cancel only this event, keep timer" or something to that effect. Essentially, it lets you overwrite your selection for that one week only, but still keeps the recurring timer going forward. That has been a big frustration to me, so that's a nice add-in. Otherwise, except for a few small things, the 721 and 522 are the same with the interface. Check out the online manuals.


----------



## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

Also, I never thought about it before, but if you're on the lease plan and want a 921, I guess you have no choice but to buy that receiver.

Is that the only receiver that can't be leased?


----------



## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

rrbhokies said:


> I looked at the online user manuals for the 721 and 522. They are similar, but the 522 has been tweaked. One think in particular I noted is with the 522, if you have a recurring event to tape a show at the same time every week, and on one particular week you want to record something else, with the 508/510/721, you have to delete the entire timer for your original show and have to remember to go back and set it back up the following week again. With the 522, I noticed there is now an option to "Cancel only this event, keep timer" or something to that effect. Essentially, it lets you overwrite your selection for that one week only, but still keeps the recurring timer going forward. That has been a big frustration to me, so that's a nice add-in. Otherwise, except for a few small things, the 721 and 522 are the same with the interface. Check out the online manuals.


I don't see why they don't put the same features on all DVR receivers. I like the cleanup feature on the 721 where I can delete several programs at once.


----------



## rrbhokies (May 10, 2004)

Link said:


> I don't see why they don't put the same features on all DVR receivers. I like the cleanup feature on the 721 where I can delete several programs at once.


I absolutely agree. I must admit, I've been a subscriber for a year now and have the 508 and not until recently have I done any research on the other receivers. I was amazed (and upset) that Dish has so many different receivers that have all kinds of different functionality. Some older units have newer features than some of their newer units, etc. Plus, all the bug fixes. Unbelievable. My jaw dropped when I watched my first Charlie Chat last night. I never even knew that my 508 was so obsolete with the user interface until I saw the 721 and 522 user manuals. Now, I'm mad that I have to BUY a 721 to get a dual tuner, even though $249 isn't a bad price. But with all the problems, not sure I would want to own one. Would rather lease it so it's covered by warranty (I'm on DHP).

All of this frustration has me seriously looking at Directv for a solution. My year is almost up, and quite frankly, Directv keeps things rather simple. For the most part, their basic receivers do the same thing, and all of their DVRs do the same thing since they are powered by Tivo. I've been a fan of Dish for the last year, but now I've grown frustated.

In a matter of days, I could get a Directv Dual Tuner DVR with Tivo that is as least as stable as any Dish DVR out there. Although in the end, it's the same cost whether I switch or whether I pay for the 721, but at least when I get the Directv DVR, I know that there aren't 3 other models out there that do different things and have features that I don't have. Even the 721 doesn't have the latest software.

Dish needs to just focus on one line of receivers (ie. 522), get the software complete and stable, and then mass produce them and get everyone to pay upgrade fees to turn in their old equipment and get on one standard. Right now, they rob Peter to pay Paul by not getting the Single mode working on the 522 because they have programmers still fixing 2 and 3 year old boxes. It's not a very good business model IMHO, and I'm hearing about more people leaving E* for D* than the other way around, and quite frankly, I may soon be one of them.


----------



## kwajr (Apr 7, 2004)

boba said:


> Maybe they will even get the 522 debugged by then.


yes it has a lot of bugs or atleast mine does


----------



## kwajr (Apr 7, 2004)

Anthony Falcone said:


> Really.
> Then why doesn't he lease all receivers? I think the lease plan is just to attain customers who don't see the logic in owning the equipment, especially those coming from cable.
> 
> Why would he lease a receiver for $5 a month and have to wait years to recoup the cost of that receiver when he could make an immediate profit by selling it to us. Let's say a receiver costs Dish $240 to manufacture; it would take 4 years for Charley to break even on that receiver, let alone make a profit on it.


WEll i think lease is perfect its like cable you do not have to buy boxes if it breaks they fix it no contracts and it doesnt cost any more check the latest prices


----------



## Chris Freeland (Mar 24, 2002)

If E* offers a 522 lease to current subs for the same terms that the new DHA plan offers and even us current subs who own are equipment can lease a 522 and or a 322 for no additional monthly fees other then the $4.98/mo DVOD fee, I would switch to a lease in a heartbeat.

I currently own 3 TV's and a VCR on a home video network and two old E* receivers, a 2000 and a 2700/2800, Ideally I would love to replace these old receivers with a 522 to service my bedroom TV's and a 721 for my main TV  .


----------



## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

rrbhokies said:


> Dish needs to just focus on one line of receivers (ie. 522), get the software complete and stable, and then mass produce them and get everyone to pay upgrade fees to turn in their old equipment and get on one standard. Right now, they rob Peter to pay Paul by not getting the Single mode working on the 522 because they have programmers still fixing 2 and 3 year old boxes. It's not a very good business model IMHO, and I'm hearing about more people leaving E* for D* than the other way around, and quite frankly, I may soon be one of them.


I agree. Directv just has the Tivo available in 35, 60 or 100 hour, but the software is the same and stable on all units. I think Dish should also do away with the single tuner DVRs, especially if they want to charge a VOD fee.


----------



## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

Chris Freeland said:


> If E* offers a 522 lease to current subs for the same terms that the new DHA plan offers and even us current subs who own are equipment can lease a 522 and or a 322 for no additional monthly fees other then the $4.98/mo DVOD fee, I would switch to a lease in a heartbeat.


I think I would do the same. I could use 3 of them.

Is the DHA leasing plan available only to new customers or can a current customer switch to it?


----------



## rrbhokies (May 10, 2004)

Anthony Falcone said:


> Is the DHA leasing plan available only to new customers or can a current customer switch to it?


You cannot switch to it. You have to be a new customer without E* service for at least 6 months. That was what I was told.


----------



## Van (May 4, 2004)

Bob Haller said:


> Leasing makes the fiancials look great. the leased boxes are shown as company assetts. They have to gie the boxes away to new subs anyway, so leasing is better for their bottom line
> 
> My 721 wasnt stable last night, it failed to record survivor and we got home late. it tuned to survivor, but didnt record and only had a 6 second buffer. its done that occasionally since the last software upgrade
> 
> ...


This same person was over on dbsforums talking about this issue though he's left out ALOT of the story such as how he said he had went through 6 721's, 6 - 7 508's, he really made it very melodramatic like a highschool play but he did provide some good clues as to obvious problems including one here, a tree that he's going to cut down.


----------



## freakmonkey (Sep 11, 2003)

I would buy 2 510's before I lease a 522


----------



## kwajr (Apr 7, 2004)

Van said:


> This same person was over on dbsforums talking about this issue though he's left out ALOT of the story such as how he said he had went through 6 721's, 6 - 7 508's, he really made it very melodramatic like a highschool play but he did provide some good clues as to obvious problems including one here, a tree that he's going to cut down.


ye sdoesnt direct use 110 and 119 locations as well so the tree should block both services anyway right


----------



## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

ahh the offending tree is a 101 directs main slot. I saw some pixels that night, checked the next morning signal strength 125 on most transponders. I tweaked things forever to get it right. YEP I have churned thru lots of boxes. theres a detail of whaty occured. things like the 65 timer bug, wife sensitive to hard drive noise, lost tuner 2s many caused by a bad dishpro lnb or switch that worked PERFECTLY for a pair of 508s!


----------



## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

Jupiter said:


> Hopefully I am not repeating this info. If this has been previously posted, just ignore this message.
> 
> Today I emailed Charlie Ergen and asked him why current customers can't get the 522 and are not allowed to activate a 522 if they some how get a hold of one. He responded with in minutes...
> 
> ...


Jupiter, is that e-mail copied and pasted exactly? Because if it is then it looks like Charlie Ergen may have actually replied personally. Or someone else did. But it would be neat if Charlie actually wrote an e-mail to a customer.

Anyway, if DISH is actually leasing out 522s (I am on DHP) then I could rent one and get rid of the other two 301s, and have a 522 and 501. I'd save $5 a month too. (I have AEP)


----------



## Jupiter (Aug 19, 2002)

Mike Richardson said:


> Jupiter, is that e-mail copied and pasted exactly? Because if it is then it looks like Charlie Ergen may have actually replied personally. Or someone else did. But it would be neat if Charlie actually wrote an e-mail to a customer.
> 
> Anyway, if DISH is actually leasing out 522s (I am on DHP) then I could rent one and get rid of the other two 301s, and have a 522 and 501. I'd save $5 a month too. (I have AEP)


Yes... That was the exact email. I replied to him asking about the 721 promotion for $249 that I heard about on this forum. Here was his response:

_c,

i dont know about that...but i will have my assistant work with you (dont put me on the forum though)..
c_

My name is Craig, which is why he referred to me as "C". Not long after his email I heard from Paul Gifford... Funny that he said not to put him on the forum. I wonder if he visits this site?

I did not use the "CEO" email that you see on this board. I used his actualy email address. I contacted him in the past about programming issues. He will usually respond with a "I will have another person help you out" type of response. When he does that I will usually here from one his "people" soon after. Michael Schwimmer has been real helpful to me in the past with programming.


----------

