# The Charlie Chat Summary - June 14th, 2010



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

*The Charlie Chat Summary - June 14th, 2010*​Charlie Chat Hosted by
Charlie Ergen - CEO and Chairman
Ira Barr?
Jim DeFranco - Executive Vice President (on "Special Assignment")

Tonight's Show
HD Free for Life
Free Previews this Month
True Blood
CMT Invitation Only Concert
WFN's Mariko Izumi

*Launch of Echostar 14*
Launch in March ... Online June 1st.
In business since 1996, first launch in 1995.
New launch coming up mid July -
Echostar 15 - Online 1st of September.
Launching from Kazakhstan.

Borat video.

HD Free for Life ... new customer offer available to existing customer as well.
Same rules as new customers: 24 month agreement/autopay/paperless

HD Platinum ... 16 premium HD channels. $10.
Call 800-894-9131 to upgrade.

New HD Channels Added in May ...
DIY ... Univision ... Galavision ... Telefutura ... ID ... EPIX2.
826 Univision World Cup Channel - Free to all customers (Spanish).
Interactive sweepstakes on channel 826.

(ESPN for English Language coverage.)

First provider to launch locals in 100% of local markets.
29 new markets. Every station with a retransmission agreement.

QUESTIONS!
Bryan in OK (email): Flopping back and forth between providers to get the "specials".
A: New customer deals are better for a short period of time. We're trying to give a great value over time.

Bob in Chicago (skype): Full time RSNs?
A: We carry all the games. As we launch new satellites we'll have space for more.
One satellite launch in July and two next year. This time next year hopefully we will have them on.

Gary in MI (email): DISH plans for 3D? Will current receivers support it?
A: Still in infancy. We will have it on this fall ... Discovery, sports and movies. Current HD receiver will work.
Charlie doesn't like the 3D technology available now and would rather watch in HD.

#1 in Customer Service? (ACSI) - DISH is #1.

*Free Previews*
Biggest free preview in DISH history .... June 18th - July 7th.
167 GAC (June 2nd-July 7th)
400 Tennis (June 18th-July 7th)
401 Golf (June 7th-July 7th)
119 Biography (June 18th-July 7th)
121 History International (June 18th-July 7th)
Throughout the summer ... (through September)
EPIX, Bravo, MGM HD, RetroPLEX, IndiePLEX, BBC America, World Fishing Net.

*True Blood*
Channel 101 True Blood - June 15-June 20th
Taste of True Blood (season one recap) - Season Two Finale - Season Three Red Carpet Premier.

*CMT Invitation Only Concert*
July 4th Marathon of concerts - Carrie Underwood, Brad Paisley, Brooks & Dunn, Reba McIntire, Darius Rucker, Tim McGraw
Next season ... Miranda Lampert

Trivia: Who was the first artist featured on CMT Front Row Only on DISH Network and what was the name of the band he performed with before he decided to go country?
Prize: Tickets to a front row concert taping in Nashville.

Video of last year's winner.

*WFN's Mariko Izumi*
Hookin' Up with Mariko Izumi - aired on World Fishing Network.
Monday nights at 7:30pm ET on channel 394.
WFN is in the HD Platium package.

QUESTIONS!
Reid in MN (email): A la carte package just for kids of Disney, Nick, Boomerang, Nicktoons ...
A: Programmers don't allow us to sell channels a la carte. Closest is DISH Family pack.

Q (Skype): GoogleTV interface for the 922?
A: Estimated $200-$300 sold at regular retailers. 922 does not surf the web now ... but will be able to with upgrades.
"Surf the web lite" on the 922 and the full experience on Google TV.
DISH product out late in the fall or next year.

Q Chris (Skype): Home media option - video? How many 922s can I get?
A: Flash will be enabled this fall. You can purchase 922s ($649) but can only lease one.
Still a few bugs in it from time to time.

Jonathan in NY (email): DIY in Family but not 120/200?
A: The way DIY wanted to be placed. DIY were willing to be in Family and 250.

Robert (phone): HD Free for Life ... 12 year subscriber ... Why is my bill so high?
A: You can qualify for HD Free for Life under new customer terms.

Winner: James Smith, Lubbock TX.
Darius Rucker, Hootie and the Blowfish


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Good recap...thanks, James.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Thanks James - your efforts are appreciated.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

Thanks, James, great recap !.... 

One question, though, can E15 really be operational as quickly as was mentioned in the Chat tonight (ie. 7-8 weeks after launch on 7-10-10) ?... Is this technically possible ?....


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Thanks, James...

Doesn't sound like a lot happened tonight... but then this is that time of year when nothing really is happening.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

BigRedFan said:


> Thanks, James, great recap !....
> 
> One question, though, can E15 really be operational as quickly as was mentioned in the Chat tonight (ie. 7-8 weeks after launch on 7-10-10) ?... Is this technically possible ?....


Oh yes - it sure can - E14 was at least that fast and it was much more complicated (spotbeams etc.) . We have E3 fast approaching LOF at 61.5...

We really need E15 up and operating that quick.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Personal highlights:

Jim DeFranco wasn't there because he thought the show was _next_ week?
Charlie calling the (future) 922 web browsing "surf the web lite."

Charlie seeing the World Cup in 3D (where? must be a test feed) and saying he didn't like 3D.

BTW: I don't know how the new satellites will help DISH provide full time HD RSNs next year. The next satellite (July) is going to 61.5 ... One of next year's is going to 77.

The biggest bandwidth pinch is and will remain a problem. The four satellites in service at 119-110-129 are the top of the line, practically brand new and are doing the best DISH can at using the licenses available. Capacity is pretty much gone ... DISH uplinked seven HD PPVs (516-522) to 119 last week. They have room for about seven more HDs today (including channels testing). DISH is currently using 12 feeds for all the HD RSNs. Assuming they stopped now with new HD and used all 26 feeds for RSNs they still wouldn't have enough. No new satellite will add bandwidth to Western Arc. (DISH could do all RSNs 24/7 on Eastern Arc as soon as E15 is in place in September.)

It will be interesting to see how DISH does it. If it were up to me I'd at least put the RSNs on spotbeams 24/7 so people could get them in their own regions. That could be done on E14. But ConUS feeds? I don't see the space.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BigRedFan said:


> One question, though, can E15 really be operational as quickly as was mentioned in the Chat tonight (ie. 7-8 weeks after launch on 7-10-10) ?... Is this technically possible ?....


Easily. The need is great (E3 is fading) and E15 will be launched directly to 61.5. No time wasted at another location testing it then moving it in. And E15 is just a simple high powered DBS satellite with no spot beams.

Charlie made an interesting comment about being nervous when he watches any satellite launch (including other company's satellites). Echostar 1 launching back in the day when the odds were 50/50 for success and if E1 failed there would be no DISH Network service until E2's later launch. AMC-14's failure is a good reminder that launches do fail occasionally - and the main reason why E15 is so important. DISH has done fairly well with launches.


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## RMichals (Sep 28, 2008)

James Long said:


> No new satellite will add bandwidth to Western Arc.


No, but 8PSK/MPEG4 sure would at 110 + 119, so why are they wasting time? Nothing is happening, no plan is even working from the top down, heck international remaining at 61.5 in EA is still not even converted to MPEG4, what's the reason there?

They have wasted a lot of time here dragging there feet, they don't even have an inexpesive model MPEG4/8PSK SD only capable box that can replace all the owned SD only 301s out there. Don't see how converting would not be worth while, dish really misses the simple stuff! Yeah they could replace 2 boxes with one 222k but don't see dish willing to do that.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

James Long said:


> Easily. The need is great (E3 is fading) and E15 will be launched directly to 61.5. No time wasted at another location testing it then moving it in. And E15 is just a simple high powered DBS satellite with no spot beams.
> 
> Charlie made an interesting comment about being nervous when he watches any satellite launch (including other company's satellites). Echostar 1 launching back in the day when the odds were 50/50 for success and if E1 failed there would be no DISH Network service until E2's later launch. AMC-14's failure is a good reminder that launches do fail occasionally - and the main reason why E15 is so important. DISH has done fairly well with launches.


I see, thanks !.... So, unlike D12, this one is going directly to its final location at 61.5 without testing somewhere else; did not know that....That explains the amazingly fast timeline from launch to going live.... Very cool not having to wait much at all before getting new active transponders and hopefully more new HD ! ....

I'm assuming this is correct, right ? --- that fortifying 61.5 will allow Eastern Arc to match up strength with Western Arc and thus, will allow for additional HD CONUS bandwidth covering the whole country equally ?...


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## chum76 (Jun 4, 2010)

*QUESTIONS!
Reid in MN (email): A la carte package just for kids of Disney, Nick, Boomerang, Nicktoons ...
A: Programmers don't allow us to sell channels a la carte. Closest is DISH Family pack.*

I tried to order DISH family and was told the package was no longer available......maybe I should try again?


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

James Long said:


> Personal highlights:
> 
> Jim DeFranco wasn't there because he thought the show was _next_ week?
> Charlie calling the (future) 922 web browsing "surf the web lite."
> ...


Didn't Charlie say tonight that they would be launching two (2) satellites in 2011 ?.... I have only heard of E 16 for next year; is there another one announced, ie. E 17 ?.... And would this 2nd launch in 2011 allow for the needed HD RSN (CONUS ?) bandwidth ?

By the way, I agree with you that the easiest solution to the part-time HD RSN's issue is to just put the regional RSN's on spotbeams with full-time HD; that will probably please 90% of their sports subscribers who just want to see their local teams/local sports shows in HD.... Those who want to see non-local HD RSN's (the hard-core fans) are with DTV, not DISH, anyways....


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BigRedFan said:


> I'm assuming this is correct, right ? --- that fortifying 61.5 will allow Eastern Arc to match up strength with Western Arc and thus, will allow for additional HD CONUS bandwidth covering the whole country equally ?...


Not really. There is more available space today, before E15, on Eastern Arc than on Western Arc. E15 will retire the elderly E3 and allow DISH to move ConUS HD to 61.5 from 72.5 (if they desire). That would make it easier on the "split arc" customers who have a 119-110 SD setup and a 61.5 wing DISH for HD instead of a full arc. Or they could just ConUS more local markets.



BigRedFan said:


> Didn't Charlie say tonight that they would be launching two (2) satellites in 2011 ?.... I have only heard of E 16 for next year; is there another one announced, ie. E 17 ?.... And would this 2nd launch in 2011 allow for the needed HD RSN (CONUS ?) bandwidth ?


The other 2011 should be QuetzSat 1 for 77. It should be able to be designed to provide Mexican coverage to the south and reuse those transponders for spotbeams to the north for US locals. QuetzSat 1 could end up being more useful at Eastern Arc than Ciel 2 is at Western Arc.



> By the way, I agree with you that the easiest solution to the part-time HD RSN's issue is to just put the regional RSN's on spotbeams with full-time HD; that will probably please 90% of their sports subscribers who just want to see their local teams/local sports shows in HD.... Those who want to see non-local HD RSN's (the hard-core fans) are with DTV, not DISH, anyways....


Without the national packages DISH could probably get away with spots and keeping a few of the current RSNs for NBA/NHL. They would have to find spots that covered an entire RSN's home area (which is bigger than a TV market) or do multiple uplinks ... and it would cut into the bandwidth needed to do 100% HD carriage (required in markets with any channel carried in HD by the end of 2011). But I believe it can be done.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

RMichals said:


> No, but 8PSK/MPEG4 sure would at 110 + 119, so why are they wasting time? Nothing is happening, no plan is even working from the top down, heck international remaining at 61.5 in EA is still not even converted to MPEG4, what's the reason there?
> 
> They have wasted a lot of time here dragging there feet, they don't even have an inexpesive model MPEG4/8PSK SD only capable box that can replace all the owned SD only 301s out there. Don't see how converting would not be worth while, dish really misses the simple stuff! Yeah they could replace 2 boxes with one 222k but don't see dish willing to do that.


I think they have a plan that we could see implemented within three years - I know James thinks its five years out, but I'm betting their objective is sooner. They've completely restructured rates around HD - boxes, packages, etc. - which means MPEG4 only. It's to encourage customers to make the change themselves.

And TV means color, digital, and HD, not black&white, analog and SD. That's the way it is. Why have any SD boxes?


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

James Long said:


> Q: How many 922s can I get?
> A: You can purchase 922s ($649) but can only lease one.


Ouch!


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

Thanks, James, for a very thorough overview of how all these new satellites are intended to work... Charlie tonight basically just said "3 more satellites are coming-- which means more HD !".... I took that to mean exactly that without knowing all the caveats you've pointed out... (Plus, he also said that a year from now we could also expect most of the RSN's to be full-time HD.)


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> I think they have a plan that we could see implemented within three years - I know James thinks its five years out, but I'm betting their objective is sooner.


Within three is still within five. I don't believe I said it would not happen sooner than five years.



> They've completely restructured rates around HD - boxes, packages, etc. - which means MPEG4 only its to encourage customers to make the change themselves.


Wake us when _all_ of the MPEG2 only receivers are discontinued.  That is the beginning of the end of MPEG2 I'm looking for.



> And TV means color, digital, and HD, not black&white, analog and SD. That's the way it is. Why have any SD boxes?


I'm in an Eastern Arc market - so it has been a while since a new customer has been given a SD receiver. The current Cart application at DISHNetwork.com will give people in my market up to three Solo or Duo HD receivers at no charge on signup (one can be a DVR at no charge, $100 for additional DVRs). But that is a new customer with a 24 month commitment.

I don't have any upgrade offers current under "my account" online (and I have two MPEG2 receivers). I did get a card in the mail offering me an upgrade to a 522/625 SD receiver ... which is contrary to me being in an Eastern Arc market.

DISH isn't quite on the MPEG4 only path ... discontinuing _all_ the MPEG2 receivers seems to be the next step. Not offering to place more that will just need replacing later.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BigRedFan said:


> Thanks, James, for a very thorough overview of how all these new satellites are intended to work... Charlie tonight basically just said "3 more satellites are coming-- which means more HD !".... I took that to mean exactly that without knowing all the caveats you've pointed out... (Plus, he also said that a year from now we could also expect most of the RSN's to be full-time HD.)


Mr Ergen and I often disagree ... and sometimes he is right. 

I should email DISH and find out which satellite launch will be giving the bandwidth needed to add the channels. I don't see it happening unless 1) more channels are put on the same transponders (only adding 18 channels), 2) Western Arc customers are given wing dishes for 61.5 HD (49 channels+) or 3) DISH buys DirecTV's transponders at 110 (21 channels) or 119 (77 channels). Listed in order of likelyhood. Insert "hell freezes over" before #3.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

Charlie Chat was miles better with Ira Bahr running the show. Hopefully Jim continues to get the date wrong for future shows.


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## farmerdave4 (Apr 19, 2007)

Isn't there going to be a point when they don't need a SD & HD feed? that would save some band width. I wish there was some real discusion around tv anywhere. Maybe we will get it in the tech show


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

You already see that with Eastern Arc locals - if Dish offers the HD local, they do not carry an SD feed of the same, instead, rely on the receivers to downconvert it if the customer needs an SD feed.

About the SD cable channels, however - There's no *TECHNICAL* reason that couldn't be done, however, there maybe *CONTRACTUAL* reasons.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

James Long said:


> Mr Ergen and I often disagree ... and sometimes he is right.
> 
> I should email DISH and find out which satellite launch will be giving the bandwidth needed to add the channels. I don't see it happening unless 1) more channels are put on the same transponders (only adding 18 channels), 2) Western Arc customers are given wing dishes for 61.5 HD (49 channels+) or 3) DISH buys DirecTV's transponders at 110 (21 channels) or 119 (77 channels). Listed in order of likelyhood. Insert "hell freezes over" before #3.


#1 is doable, at a cost in Picture quality

#2 is doable, to some extent. You start running into LOS issues on 61.5 the farther west you go - elevation on 61.5 in California is only 11 degrees, and I'm not sure it is possible at all in Washington and Oregon (you can forget AK and HI pointing at 61.5)

#3 - Agree 100% - "when hell freezes over" (LOL)

Let me put forth another option - 148 for west of the Rockies. There is the issue of putting another bird out there (ideally - one that is designed for it, concetrating spots on HI, AK and west of the Rockies CONUS).


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

farmerdave4 said:


> Isn't there going to be a point when they don't need a SD & HD feed? that would save some band width.


I presume that day will eventually come, but I think it will be a long, long time. There are a still a ton of SD sets out there and a lot of people that, for whatever reason, just don't want HD. Unless our favorite tightwad (Charlie) wants to swap out millions of SD boxes _en masse_, I do not see the SD channels going away anytime soon.


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## tcooper185 (Dec 2, 2006)

GoogleTV box for $200 to $300? That seems higher than I remember from estimates at the Google IO conference...thought I heard in the $100 range. Not sure I'd pay $200 for it...certainly not $300.


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

Thanks for the recap James.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

scooper said:


> farmerdave4 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't there going to be a point when they don't need a SD & HD feed?
> ...


I'd bet on contractual reasons ... both on the provider side (ESPN considering their main channel and their HD channel to be separate feeds - which led to a lawsuit) and on DISH's side (providing bulk commercial feeds). We might see some movement as contracts are renewed.



tcooper185 said:


> GoogleTV box for $200 to $300? That seems higher than I remember from estimates at the Google IO conference...thought I heard in the $100 range. Not sure I'd pay $200 for it...certainly not $300.


Mr Ergen was giving a wild guess. Probably better to be wild high than low.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

Nick said:


> I presume that day will eventually come, but I think it will be a long, long time. There are a still a ton of SD sets out there and a lot of people that, for whatever reason, just don't want HD. Unless our favorite tightwad (Charlie) wants to swap out millions of SD boxes _en masse_, I do not see the SD channels going away anytime soon.


I think it will be staged, as that only makes sense. Some special interest/ special subscription stuff will go first (possibly just go, not get replaced by MPEG-4 SD if the contracts allow HD-only broadcasts), then some of the premiums, then HBO, then work it's way down.

What about the Ka-band licences? DirecTV has a massive amount of Ka-band capacity, but other than locals and spanish programming, they are only using three positions total. Can Dish add Ka-band sats near their Ku-band sats and use a combined LNB setup like DirecTV? If there was one just west of 110, and one just west of 119 (there's already the international one just east?), and two bracketing 72.7, Dish's system would have absolutely terrific capacity. HD-lite, and part-time RSNs could finally be eliminated. That would kill the split arc setups, however, and require full "arcing" for virtually all HD customers.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

Nick said:


> I presume that day will eventually come, but I think it will be a long, long time. There are a still a ton of SD sets out there and a lot of people that, for whatever reason, just don't want HD. Unless our favorite tightwad (Charlie) wants to swap out millions of SD boxes _en masse_, I do not see the SD channels going away anytime soon.


I'd say SD will be around forever due to low power stations.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> What about the Ka-band licences? DirecTV has a massive amount of Ka-band capacity, but other than locals and spanish programming, they are only using three positions total. Can Dish add Ka-band sats near their Ku-band sats and use a combined LNB setup like DirecTV?


DISH experimented with Ku FSS on 105, 121 and 118. 121 has business customers, 118 has internationals. I don't see DISH going back to the "SuperDish". Ka is just a larger SuperDish.

Reverse DBS shows some promise but would also require a dish upgrade to get those signals to customers. The best part about DISH's current satellites is that they are full power DBS locations. The bad part is that they have limited space. Conversion to MPEG4 or removing services is about the only way to get more channels without adding new dishes.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Paul Secic said:


> I'd say SD will be around forever due to low power stations.


The real issue here is MPEG2 / MPEG4, not HD / SD per se. There are a number of channels up in Eastern Arc that are SD only, but they are also MPEG4 (H.264).

The entire SD version of AT250 is available on Eastern Arc, in MPEG4. What is stopping the western arc from the same is the older MPEG2 only receivers (Legacy, SD Dishpro receivers / SD DVRs). If EVERY subscriber had VIP receivers only - MPEG4 would be a reality - in the meantime - like James said - look for them to stop offering MPEG2 equipment as the signal that the MPEG4 transition is on the way.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The problem on switching to all "HD" or even all MPEG4... is that more than half of Dish's customers (half of roughly 14 million for rounding sake) are still SD-only customers who have MPEG2-only receivers.

With an average of at least 2 receivers per customer... there is at minimum 14 million SD/MPEG2 only receivers still active in the field.

That would take a lot of time and money to change out... so unfortunately, expect those MPEG2 SD channels to remain in the system for years to come. No way Dish shuts down more than half of its customer-base just to get some bandwidth for the still-minority of their customers.

On the RSN front..

James probably hits it right, that Dish could do this more quickly by going spotbeam with the HD RSNs... but if they do that, it would kill the value in multi-sport package subscriptions for HD customers who couldn't get all of them anymore.

Personally, I'd be happy with just my RSN full time and maybe the Big Ten network... but I know a lot of people who love having access to the other RSNs.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stewart Vernon said:


> On the RSN front..
> 
> James probably hits it right, that Dish could do this more quickly by going spotbeam with the HD RSNs... but if they do that, it would kill the value in multi-sport package subscriptions for HD customers who couldn't get all of them anymore.
> 
> Personally, I'd be happy with just my RSN full time and maybe the Big Ten network... but I know a lot of people who love having access to the other RSNs.


In my plan the Multisports would remain SD and game only HD. College sports fans would lose, but there are enough blackouts on pro sports that DISH would only have to worry about populating the shared HD channels for the NBA and NHL package customers. DISH doesn't have to worry about the Sunday Ticket peak of 60+ simultaneous games (including other sports) that use up all of the flexible RSN/PPV HD space on DirecTV.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Well, we all agree that sooner or later Dish will switch to all MPEG-4. I think that "half of Dish's customers are still SD-only" figure gets repeated frequently.

It's hard to believe that all those 7 million households won't buy a TV in the next couple of years (a TV that displays a color picture in HD since that's all you can buy) and discover they don't have an HD signal.

Also Dish says in its quarterly:


> We have been investing more in advanced technology equipment as part of our subscriber acquisition and retention efforts. Recent initiatives to transmit certain programming only in MPEG-4 and to activate most new subscribers only with MPEG-4 receivers have accelerated our deployment of MPEG-4 receivers. To meet current demand, we have increased the rate at which we upgrade existing subscribers to HD and DVR receivers. While these efforts may increase our subscriber acquisition and retention costs, we believe that they will help reduce subscriber churn and costs over the long run.
> 
> We have also been changing equipment to migrate certain subscribers to make more efficient use of transponder capacity in support of HD and other initiatives. We expect to continue these initiatives through 2010. We believe that the benefit from the increase in available transponder capacity outweighs the short-term cost of these equipment changes.
> 
> ...Several years ago, we began deploying receivers that utilize 8PSK modulation technology and receivers that utilize MPEG-4 compression technology. These technologies, when fully deployed, will allow more programming channels to be carried over our existing satellites. A majority of our customers today, however, do not have receivers that use MPEG-4 compression and a smaller but still significant percentage do not have receivers that use 8PSK modulation. We may choose to invest significant capital to accelerate the conversion of customers to MPEG-4 and/or 8PSK to realize the bandwidth benefits sooner. In addition, given that all of our HD content is broadcast in MPEG-4, any growth in HD penetration will naturally accelerate our transition to these newer technologies and may increase our subscriber acquisition and retention costs. All new receivers that we purchase from EchoStar now have MPEG-4 technology. Although we continue to refurbish and redeploy MPEG-2 receivers, as a result of our HD initiatives and current promotions, we currently activate most new customers with higher priced MPEG-4 technology. This limits our ability to redeploy MPEG-2 receivers and, to the extent that our promotions are successful, will accelerate the transition to MPEG-4 technology, resulting in an adverse effect on our SAC.


If you do a search in the quarterly for HD, there are many, many references. There are no references for SD.

Oh, and maybe as the 722k and 922 are installed to replace 622/722's, refurb 622/722's will be used to serve the diehard b/w SD TV owners.:sure:


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I'm ashamed to say that I'm one of those holding up the MPEG4 transition - my single subscribed receiver is an old Legacy 4900. Wife gets a job / I get a better job - maybe we can move on to the new stuff. (OTA HD is great).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> It's hard to believe that all those 7 million households won't buy a TV in the next couple of years (a TV that displays a color picture in HD since that's all you can buy) and discover they don't have an HD signal.


Hopefully when they do they will buy (or pay a upgrade fee to lease) the appropriate HD receiver(s).

Half of my receivers are SD only ... so if DISH said MPEG4 only to me they would have to send me two receivers (or a 622). Or lose the additional receiver fees ($14) I pay on the 501 and 301 in question. If I have to pay for an upgrade I'll probably just drop the receivers. (Probably should anyways.)



> Oh, and maybe as the 722k and 922 are installed to replace 622/722's, refurb 622/722's will be used to serve the diehard b/w SD TV owners.:sure:


222k and 211k will abound ... let the customer pay if they want anything more.

It would be NICE if DISH could simply swap everything out at no cost to us subscribers but it would also be unrealistic to expect it.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

James Long said:


> 222k and 211k will abound ... let the customer pay if they want anything more.
> 
> It would be NICE if DISH could simply swap everything out at no cost to us subscribers but it would also be unrealistic to expect it.


Amen - I have my eye on a 222K if I finally get treed out of 119/110. I REALLY like having the UHF remote on that 4900 (one of the reasons we got that as our original receiver).


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Stewart Vernon said:


> The problem on switching to all "HD" or even all MPEG4... is that more than half of Dish's customers (half of roughly 14 million for rounding sake) are still SD-only customers who have MPEG2-only receivers.
> 
> With an average of at least 2 receivers per customer... there is at minimum 14 million SD/MPEG2 only receivers still active in the field.
> 
> That would take a lot of time and money to change out... so unfortunately, expect those MPEG2 SD channels to remain in the system for years to come. No way Dish shuts down more than half of its customer-base just to get some bandwidth for the still-minority of their customers.


I have no idea what the actual numbers are - but I would expect it to be a substantial amount who are still using MPEG2 only equipment.



Stewart Vernon said:


> On the RSN front..
> 
> James probably hits it right, that Dish could do this more quickly by going spotbeam with the HD RSNs... but if they do that, it would kill the value in multi-sport package subscriptions for HD customers who couldn't get all of them anymore.
> 
> Personally, I'd be happy with just my RSN full time and maybe the Big Ten network... but I know a lot of people who love having access to the other RSNs.


It's not a bad idea - is it a good enough idea to think about ?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Regarding replacing all those legacy SD/MPEG2 receivers...

First there's the customers who have to want to do it... then the cost (either to customers OR to Dish)... then there has to be time.

How long (time only) would you think it would take to visit 7 million + homes to do swapouts? Consider that this would be in addition to whatever else (new customers, existing customer service/upgrades, etc.) they would have to roll trucks to do...

They would have to do something like 20,000 a day just to swap out 7 million homes in a single year... Is that something they could do? I don't know the answer to that.


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## ehren (Aug 3, 2003)

No Charlie you DON'T have all the games... especially in HD ya moron!


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

It's not going to happen over a single year - 3 to 5 years would not be unreasonable - 
3 years - 6700 /day
5 years - 4000 /day
- I'm assuming these would be a "daily national" number
and this would be in addition to "normal" new customers / other customers needing service etc.

Plus, many of these conversions should be "simple" swaps - take out old receiver, hookup new receiver, activate new with same programming - I don't see why many of these (especially us old timers with already working dishes) couldn't do these themselves.

What would get complicated are those that would need new dishes to change western to eastern, or maybe add a wing dish here or there.

After their initial swapout - any further service for these swapees would be normal service calls.

The next step would be "how many techs are available to do these" ?

And you would probably also setup some tiger teams to target specific areas / timing considerations.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stewart Vernon said:


> They would have to do something like 20,000 a day just to swap out 7 million homes in a single year... Is that something they could do? I don't know the answer to that.


In the first quarter DISH added 833,000 subscribers ... averaging 9,128 installs per day (91.25 days). DISH lost 596,000 customers.

There is no telling from simple numbers how many of the 596,000 had MPEG2 only equipment (and are no longer part of the "7 million" that need upgrading). But just for fun, assume that 100% of DISH's lost customers are those who need MPEG2 conversions and the rate for this past first quarter stays the same --- DISH will lose 7 million customers in just under three years.

The trouble is with the 833,000 installs. Since the MPEG2 only equipment isn't discontinued and is still being placed and activated we know that many of those installs are just continuing the problem. This is why it the key to conversion is to _*stop placing MPEG2 only receivers*_.

If DISH would simply stop placing MPEG2 only receivers they could churn their way through half of their customers in three years - then offer incentives to the rest of the customers to change their equipment. Every MPEG2 receiver activated is just another stumbling block toward meeting the "all MPEG4" goal.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> The trouble is with the 833,000 installs. Since the MPEG2 only equipment isn't discontinued and is still being placed and activated we know that many of those installs are just continuing the problem. This is why it the key to conversion is to _*stop placing MPEG2 only receivers*_.
> 
> If DISH would simply stop placing MPEG2 only receivers they could churn their way through half of their customers in three years - then offer incentives to the rest of the customers to change their equipment. Every MPEG2 receiver activated is just another stumbling block toward meeting the "all MPEG4" goal.


Maybe by making HD free, they can accomplish just what you've suggested without upsetting new customers with SD TVs, as why would anyone order SD if HD and SD cost the same? Of course, they have to train the CSRs to make sure this happens....


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah... the "free HD for life" coupled with a no-cost upgrade to the lowest tier MPEG4 HD receivers would be a logical way to entice some customers to voluntarily "upgrade" out of their old equipment.

Also, as James noted, Dish really needs to draw the line on installing/activating MPEG2 receivers on accounts so they don't proliferate the problem.

At some point this + the natural churn might get them in a position in 3-4 years where they could make an executive decision to "force" the lingerers on "old" technology to move or go... but until they get 75-80% or more people on all MPEG4 equipment, they can't even consider such things.

I bet I've been underestimating at 50-50 too... I know HD has been gaining steam... but I wouldn't be surprised if it is 60-40 or even 65-35 SD/MPEG2 vs MPEG4 equipment installed with Dish customers.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

James Long said:


> Bob in Chicago (skype): Full time RSNs?
> A: *We carry all the games*. As we launch new satellites we'll have space for more.
> One satellite launch in July and two next year. This time next year hopefully we will have them on.


That would be nice if it were true, but it is an outright lie. There were more than a few games on the local RSN channel or alternate that were broadcast in HD (and available on Comcast or DirecTV in HD) that were NOT in HD with Dish or were JIP VERY late into the game.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

The latest rumor I have heard was that the Western Arc (WA) will be transitioned to MPEG-2 8PSK first which provides Dish with significant bandwidth gains (about 35%) although not as much as going all the way to MPEG-4 but it does not require the massive switchout of receivers since the models 111, 311, 322, 522, 625 and the 381 (aka modified 811) can all receive MPEG-2 8PSK signals as well as all the VIP series of receivers. 

In regards to the E-16 satellite, I would be surprised if it is launched in 2011, more likely early 2012. It will be a spotbeam satellite that most likely will have massive spotbeam capability, 12 - 20 TPs dedicated to spotbeams. Expect Dish to still use E-12 spotbeams at 61.5 W but the uplink design restrictions with E-12 make it less than optimal so it will probably be used in a reduced capacity. E-16 also may have "reverse DBS" capability on it since Dish has a license for it extremely close to the 61.5 W slot. It needs to be recognized that by the end of 2011, Dish will have use of all 32 TPs at 72.7 W and since Nimiq 5 is a CONUS only satellite, expect the trend for it to carry national programming with locals to be place at 61.5 W even before E-16 is in place. The QuetzSat-1 satellite now scheduled to be launched in November of 2011 will also have a massive spotbeam capability in the U.S. This seems to be a large amount of spotbeam capability but it is needed with HD along with the fact that Dish should be able reduce the amount of CONUS TPs needed with MPEG-4 and the eventual phaseout of the repetitive SD channels. It is fairly obvious that a large majority of Dish subscribers will be on the Eastern Arc (EA) just based on the planned spotbeam capabilities as well as the fact that the EA gives a better Line of Sight for a majority of the U.S. population. 

There was a post that mentioned the 148 W slot. Dish could build a satellite similar to Ciel-2 with about 12 - 16 TPs used for spotbeams with the rest CONUS for the west coast and perhaps Alaska and Hawaii. Subscribers in most areas could use a D1000 dish to receive both 129 and 148 W and be able to get a full lineup of channels.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

That actually makes alot of sense - after all, how many Legacy receivers can still be out there ? (raises hand  ).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> The latest rumor I have heard was that the Western Arc (WA) will be transitioned to MPEG-2 8PSK first which provides Dish with significant bandwidth gains (about 35%) although not as much as going all the way to MPEG-4 but it does not require the massive switchout of receivers since the models 111, 311, 322, 522, 625 and the 381 (aka modified 811) can all receive MPEG-2 8PSK signals as well as all the VIP series of receivers.


There were signs of this with the recent 29 market additions ... several were uplinked in SD on 8PSK transponders. But DISH backed off in most markets and released the markets as SD on QPSK transponders.



> It is fairly obvious that a large majority of Dish subscribers will be on the Eastern Arc (EA) just based on the planned spotbeam capabilities as well as the fact that the EA gives a better Line of Sight for a majority of the U.S. population.


I wouldn't mind dual arc availability in the major markets. Let installers use the arc that best suits each install.



> There was a post that mentioned the 148 W slot. Dish could build a satellite similar to Ciel-2 with about 12 - 16 TPs used for spotbeams with the rest CONUS for the west coast and perhaps Alaska and Hawaii. Subscribers in most areas could use a D1000 dish to receive both 129 and 148 W and be able to get a full lineup of channels.


A "Far West Arc"? Not a bad idea. DISH needs to protect that license at some point. Locals duplication would give DISH an "east or west" option for eastern customers from the current Eastern and Western arcs and an "east or west" option for western customers from the "Far West" and current Western arc.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> DISH experimented with Ku FSS on 105, 121 and 118. 121 has business customers, 118 has internationals. I don't see DISH going back to the "SuperDish". Ka is just a larger SuperDish.
> 
> Reverse DBS shows some promise but would also require a dish upgrade to get those signals to customers. The best part about DISH's current satellites is that they are full power DBS locations. The bad part is that they have limited space. Conversion to MPEG4 or removing services is about the only way to get more channels without adding new dishes.


DirecTV does it, and it works. If Dish did it within the LOS boundaries of the existing arcs, it would give them just insane capacity.

The issue now is that DISH is clearly pushing the limits on their systems. They don't have the full-time RSN's even in HD-Lite, and they, AFAIK, have nothing in 1080i yet, only HD-lite. They have a bandwidth crunch.

What everyone here is forgetting is that a lot of those "HD" customers have some older MPEG-2 boxes in the kitchen, basement, garage, bedroom, wherever. A lot of those will get upgraded to HD as time goes on, but they're still out there. Sure, there are some pure MPEG-4 installs just because the user wanted all HD boxes, or because they are EA, but most HD users who have LIL's on the EA are using a split arc setup. The 1000.4's are creeping in, but not terribly fast.

Why can't they put full-time RSN's up now and nuke the PPV channels that the RSN's share time with now? Money? How many PPVs do they actually need and why? Putting all MPEG-4 gear out might help too, since most of them will be 622's or better, and have on demand, which will reduce the need for PPV, which is rather outdated in this on demand age.

It will be interesting to see what they do.


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## ruralruss (Feb 5, 2010)

Quote : _have nothing in 1080i yet_

All of the HD I watch on Dish is 1080i.

Russ


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> DirecTV does it, and it works.


That's no excuse. DirecTV was also the first provider I know of to transmit HD as 1280x1080i. That is contrary to what you are advocating (and isn't an industry first to be proud of).



> Why can't they put full-time RSN's up now and nuke the PPV channels that the RSN's share time with now?


You need to pay more attention in the DirecTV forums. 

In order to provide "all" of the games in HD DirecTV on a peak day must use most of their HD PPV channels and their 24x7 RSNs. If I recall what Sixto said on a peak day there are over 60 HD sports feeds up and running.

DISH does NOT share PPV with RSNs. DISH uses 12 dedicated RSN channels on western arc and 11 on eastern arc. As of 2:31pm, DISH has 22 channels of HD PPV ... That is 34 channels western arc. Far less than the ~60 needed to carry every game in HD (and that includes wiping all HD PPV).

Give DISH six transponders and they would be able to do every game in HD ... but as you noted, DISH doesn't have the space. You've answered your own question.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> You need to pay more attention in the DirecTV forums.
> 
> In order to provide "all" of the games in HD DirecTV on a peak day must use most of their HD PPV channels and their 24x7 RSNs. If I recall what Sixto said on a peak day there are over 60 HD sports feeds up and running.


Am I remembering incorrectly, or wasn't there at least one year where Directv was also taking TNTHD off the air on Sundays in order to air all the NFL Sunday Ticket games?


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> That's no excuse. DirecTV was also the first provider I know of to transmit HD as 1280x1080i. That is contrary to what you are advocating (and isn't an industry first to be proud of).
> 
> You need to pay more attention in the DirecTV forums.
> 
> ...


I know they did back in the MPEG-2 days. However, when they moved to Ka, they no longer had to do HD-Lite. Hmmmm, idea here? There's just a lot more space on Ka-band, and DirecTV was able to make the most attractive dish ever made with their Ka-band satellites straddling the focus of the dish.

OK, I'm a little confused now. You've got other non-RSN stuff mixing in with RSNs here. First of all, don't all the teams play at the same time (Baseball, since we're talking about RSN's). Also, are the RSNs nationwide like NESN and YES in the Northeast, where NESN is the Red Sox channel, and YES is the Yankees channel, and that's their reason for existence, just filling in the rest of the time with random stuff, and occasional other games that no one would bother to get the channel for?

Are they currently arcing the RSNs according to market (i.e. only RSNs from the east are on EA, and RSNs that only cover EA-only markets are only on WA)? This way, however, there would be a lot more on the WA than EA, since some smaller markets near an EA market are WA markets, and the RSN's typically span multiple markets.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> OK, I'm a little confused now. You've got other non-RSN stuff mixing in with RSNs here.


DISH has 12 channels WA and 11 channels EA dedicated for use as RSNs. The only thing that changes is which HD RSN maps to which dedicated RSN channel - similar to the way DirecTV runs their part time HD RSNs and season tickets, except DISH doesn't share their RSN space with PPVs.



> First of all, don't all the teams play at the same time (Baseball, since we're talking about RSN's).


Baseball is probably the best example of all the teams not playing at the same time. Day games and double headers add to the time zone differences between coasts. A RSN feed for an east coast game can be reused for an RSN feed for a west coast game - the issue being the east coast game ending. "Joined in progress" is a common complaint of west coast viewers.



> Are they currently arcing the RSNs according to market (i.e. only RSNs from the east are on EA, and RSNs that only cover EA-only markets are only on WA)?


_*Eastern Arc*_
5434 NESN
5435 CSNNE
5438 SNY
_*Western Arc*_
5409 CSNCA
5410 ALTUD
5411 PRIME
5415 FOXAZ
5417 FOXW
5419 CSNBA
5421 CSTNO
5426 FOXNW
_*Both Arcs*_
5414 FOXRM
5416 FOXSW
5418 FOXMW
5420 FOXS
5422 SUN
5423 FOXFL
5424 CSNMA
5425 FOXOH
5427 FOXCN
5428 FOXPT
5429 CSNCH
5430 FOXD
5431 STO
5436 FOXN
5437 SPSOU


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

James Long said:


> [...] Charlie seeing the World Cup in 3D (where? must be a test feed) and saying he didn't like 3D [...]


He's probably trying to play down the fact that DirecTV is showing some of the games on the new ESPN3D channel (106).


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> DISH has 12 channels WA and 11 channels EA dedicated for use as RSNs. The only thing that changes is which HD RSN maps to which dedicated RSN channel - similar to the way DirecTV runs their part time HD RSNs and season tickets, except DISH doesn't share their RSN space with PPVs.
> 
> Baseball is probably the best example of all the teams not playing at the same time. Day games and double headers add to the time zone differences between coasts. A RSN feed for an east coast game can be reused for an RSN feed for a west coast game - the issue being the east coast game ending. "Joined in progress" is a common complaint of west coast viewers.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's a pretty bad setup, if they're overlapping without bandwidth to handle that. They could at least plan for it and steal from PPV in order to keep the games up. Sounds like DISH is in more of a bandwidth crunch than DirecTV, even though right now, DISH is quite a bit ahead in the cable networks in HD-Lite.

Sounds like DISH is running clear out of bandwidth.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Wow, that's a pretty bad setup, if they're overlapping without bandwidth to handle that. They could at least plan for it and steal from PPV in order to keep the games up. Sounds like DISH is in more of a bandwidth crunch than DirecTV, even though right now, DISH is quite a bit ahead in the cable networks in HD-Lite.
> 
> Sounds like DISH is running clear out of bandwidth.


It is a decision. DirecTV added PPVs that could be taken down for extra games and RSNs instead of adding other channels. That is the reason why DirecTV had to wait for D12 to add the 30 channels they are adding in May-June and will still be 20 channels short of DISH after these are done. DirecTV went with 24/7 RSNs instead of national HD channels.

Life is better for DirecTV with D12 ... but what's next? Once the remaining capacity is filled it will be years before the next satellite comes online. DISH has it's challenges, but DirecTV is in no way set "for life".


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> It is a decision. DirecTV added PPVs that could be taken down for extra games and RSNs instead of adding other channels. That is the reason why DirecTV had to wait for D12 to add the 30 channels they are adding in May-June and will still be 20 channels short of DISH after these are done. DirecTV went with 24/7 RSNs instead of national HD channels.
> 
> Life is better for DirecTV with D12 ... but what's next? Once the remaining capacity is filled it will be years before the next satellite comes online. DISH has it's challenges, but DirecTV is in no way set "for life".


Of course a critical question for both will be how many HD cable channels there will be two years from now and whether the media conglomerates that own them will insist in negotiations on an all or nothing policy.

But for Dish, the most critical space issue is HD locals. My own DMA San Francisco has five but still needs at least two more. My guess is with most DMA's only having four, lacking The CW, MyNetwork, and PBS, we're looking at a lot of HD signals to add, albeit to spotbeams. But I guess they have a couple of years to accomplish that.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

phrelin said:


> Of course a critical question for both will be how many HD cable channels there will be two years from now and whether the media conglomerates that own them will insist in negotiations on an all or nothing policy.
> 
> But for Dish, the most critical space issue is HD locals. My own DMA San Francisco has five but still needs at least two more. My guess is with most DMA's only having four, lacking The CW, MyNetwork, and PBS, we're looking at a lot of HD signals to add, albeit to spotbeams. But I guess they have a couple of years to accomplish that.


Yeah, this is a big issue for DirecTV, as they don't have 100% market coverage, or as many markets as DISH in HD, but they do have PBS and the CW, which adds quite a bit to each market.

I think over the next couple of years, we will see new satellites with tighter spotbeams like E14 go up that will condense the locals as tightly as possible, which should allow 100% HD LIL coverage in a similar footprint to what they have now.

The way our local TV stations are set up, however, is just insanity. Local news is fine and all, but the FCC should shove all the stations in a market into one 6 mhz channel on ultra-compressed SD subchannels, and the networks themselves should only broadcast HD from NYC, Chicago, Denver, and LA, with those four feeds going to cable and satellite nationwide on CONUS, effectively killing the affiliates off. If two of the four went out of business in each market, it would be a good thing, leaving two to duke it out for local news coverage, with syndicated and primetime viewing coming from the national stations. It's never going to happen though, so DISH and DirecTV have to live with an insane myriad of locals and DMA's that makes no technical sense.



James Long said:


> It is a decision. DirecTV added PPVs that could be taken down for extra games and RSNs instead of adding other channels. That is the reason why DirecTV had to wait for D12 to add the 30 channels they are adding in May-June and will still be 20 channels short of DISH after these are done. DirecTV went with 24/7 RSNs instead of national HD channels.
> 
> Life is better for DirecTV with D12 ... but what's next? Once the remaining capacity is filled it will be years before the next satellite comes online. DISH has it's challenges, but DirecTV is in no way set "for life".


DirecTV isn't set for life at all, but for now, they do have more capacity. I think they shot themselves in the foot with the SL3, they shouldh have kept the ability to use 110 and 119 for CONUS HD, and designed an LNB that could have those fed in separately for locations with LOS issues.

Then the question is: what will either company do next? They are both out of bandwidth. Comcast has a clear path to kill analog, build out the plant and implement SDV, and they have unlimited capacity. U-Verse is unlimited from day 1, and Fios can roll out IPTV/QAM-256 hybrid boxes for getting new channels, or mirror existing QAM-256 channels on IPTV for a transition to additional capacity, or implement some version of IP-controlled SDV.

DISH and DirecTV went way out ahead in the HD race, and still are ahead in many areas, but they need a plan for the future, to get less-compressed channels, kill HD-Lite, get over 100 HD nationals, full-time HD RSN's and 100% HD LIL coverage.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> DISH and DirecTV went way out ahead in the HD race, and still are ahead in many areas, but they need a plan for the future, to ... *get over 100 HD nationals*, ...


DISH is currently delivering 108 national HD channels, before PPVs and RSNs. DirecTV has 100 and will have 112 national channels next Wednesday ... (that will include 27 24/7 RSNs).

The only way to get below 100 would be to not count real channels.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Then the question is: what will either company do next? They are both out of bandwidth. Comcast has a clear path to kill analog, build out the plant and implement SDV, and they have unlimited capacity. U-Verse is unlimited from day 1, and Fios can roll out IPTV/QAM-256 hybrid boxes for getting new channels, or mirror existing QAM-256 channels on IPTV for a transition to additional capacity, or implement some version of IP-controlled SDV.
> 
> DISH and DirecTV went way out ahead in the HD race, and still are ahead in many areas, but they need a plan for the future, to get less-compressed channels, kill HD-Lite, get over 100 HD nationals, full-time HD RSN's and 100% HD LIL coverage.


I don't know much about DirecTV's future plans but both Dish and DirecTV have "reverse DBS" slots to develop. In regards to Dish, I don't think folks realize the amount of bandwidth they will be gaining in the next two years especially for the Eastern Arc. At 61.5 W, Dish is not using or can't use 9 TPs. This should change with the successful launch and deployment of the E-15 satellite in July, 2010. In addition, by the end of 2011, Dish will have use of 11 more TPs at 72.7 W. Also the QuetzSat-1 satellite is scheduled for launch in late 2011 with Dish having use of 24 TPs in the U.S. but this almost for sure will be used for spotbeams. It is quite obvious that Dish is fairly well set for bandwidth expansion in the Eastern Arc.

The Western Arc is a bit more limited but the conversion first to MPEG-2 8PSK and then to MPEG-4 8PSK should gain Dish significant bandwidth. Currently Dish uses 30 CONUS TPs at 110 W and 119 W in MPEG-2 QPSK so a conversion to 8PSK should free up Dish 8 - 10 TPs. Full conversion to MPEG-4 should free up a minimum of another 4 - 5 TPs. Certainly some of these might be used for spotbeams on E-14 since that satellite has the capability to use 12 TPs for spotbeams while it only uses 5 TPs currently.


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## RMichals (Sep 28, 2008)

rocatman said:


> The Western Arc is a bit more limited but the conversion first to MPEG-2 8PSK and then to MPEG-4 8PSK should gain Dish significant bandwidth. Currently Dish uses 30 CONUS TPs at 110 W and 119 W in MPEG-2 QPSK so a conversion to 8PSK should free up Dish 8 - 10 TPs. Full conversion to MPEG-4 should free up a minimum of another 4 - 5 TPs.


I don't think dish has time to worry about intermediate steps like going to MPEG-2 8PSK, there are still probably more 301s (QPSK only) which need to be replaced then 311s, its going to have to be all MPEG-4/8PSK and by then they can start discontinuing the SD simulcasts and use the HD for downconverting to SD, the problem is they dont have a box, like a CECB, that could do all this inexpensively and with actual aspect ratio controls for SD downconverting.They have missed the boat!


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

RMichals said:


> I don't think dish has time to worry about intermediate steps like going to MPEG-2 8PSK, there are still probably more 301s (QPSK only) which need to be replaced then 311s, its going to have to be all MPEG-4/8PSK and by then they can start discontinuing the SD simulcasts and use the HD for downconverting to SD, the problem is they dont have a box, like a CECB, that could do all this inexpensively and with actual aspect ratio controls for SD downconverting.They have missed the boat!


Whether anybody thinks it smart or not, based on the latest rumors, Dish will convert the Western Arc to MPEG-2 8PSK for the SD channels first prior to going to MPEG-4 8PSK. Remember its not just the 301s versus 311s but also the 501/508/510s versus 522/625s. Models 111 and 322 can do 8PSK too. I am sure there are some old 4 digit model receivers out there but that number has to be pretty low right now. Obviously, a lot of this has to do with cost of receiver replacement and I am sure Dish has done a bit of analysis related to this conversion.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

James was looking for a stop in Dish sending out MPEG2 boxes as his yardstick that Dish is on the road - let me relate my story -

When we (the wife and me) decided to cut back DIsh to save on expenses, I called them and first dropped down to AT120, then turn in the 625 I had at the time, and activate the 4900. It was going smooth down to the activating the old receiver type - I would ask questions like "Don't I need a purple Access Card ?" and the CSR said "try it and call back", then when they did the hit, of course I needed to call in again for the new card, (which took 3-4 days instead of what I would have thought should be an overnight delivery) and then while activating it there was just a hint of hesitation, as if they almost wanted me to get a newer receiver instead.

Take it on it's face - I think they were really wanting me to go another direction than I did on the receiver. Like - "Do you really want to activate that old receiver ? " - nothing rude, just kind of "ok we'll do this but we really want you to get something newer instead".


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

rocatman said:


> Whether anybody thinks it smart or not, based on the latest rumors, Dish will convert the Western Arc to MPEG-2 8PSK for the SD channels first prior to going to MPEG-4 8PSK. Remember its not just the 301s versus 311s but also the 501/508/510s versus 522/625s. Models 111 and 322 can do 8PSK too. I am sure there are some old 4 digit model receivers out there but that number has to be pretty low right now. Obviously, a lot of this has to do with cost of receiver replacement and I am sure Dish has done a bit of analysis related to this conversion.


Makes perfect sense, so long as the 8PSK replacement receivers also do MPEG4, so that they are ready for that when it comes along. It will likely also get some older customers to upgrade to HD and DVR's and the like which is just another bonus for DISH.

With 8PSK, the actual bitrate is the same right? So those in WA markets aren't going to save disk space like those who are in MPEG-4 EA markets do for the SDs right?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Also, keep in mind that any of the following models DVRs out there in use Dish can eliminate represent less pressure on the company because of the TiVo lawsuit: 501, 508, 510, 522, 625, 721, 921, and 942.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Makes perfect sense, so long as the 8PSK replacement receivers also do MPEG4, so that they are ready for that when it comes along. It will likely also get some older customers to upgrade to HD and DVR's and the like which is just another bonus for DISH.


MPEG4 shouldn't be a requirement for a transition. The receivers are developed and in service. It would come down to cost. DISH may even offer a choice of a free upgrade to 8PSK for SD to help them or MPEG4 for HD as an extra charge/commitment for the customer.



> With 8PSK, the actual bitrate is the same right? So those in WA markets aren't going to save disk space like those who are in MPEG-4 EA markets do for the SDs right?


Correct. The encoded signal should be about the same size. 8PSK just provides room for roughly 50% more of that signal on the same transponders. 12 SD channels per transponder becomes 18. Three transponders become two. And (if desired) HD and SD can be mixed on the same transponders. Going to 8PSK could be enough to keep DISH going ... and with 9 MPEG4 per transponder (current maximum) swapping two SDs for one HD down the road will free up the space needed for the final MPEG4 changeover.



phrelin said:


> Also, keep in mind that any of the following models DVRs out there in use Dish can eliminate represent less pressure on the company because of the TiVo lawsuit: 501, 508, 510, 522, 625, 721, 921, and 942.


If I recall correctly, DISH said it would cost four _billion_ to replace all the remaining "infringing receivers" if they ever were to shut them off? That is part of the expense that would be paid by going straight to MPEG4 (non-DVRs would also need replacing in an MPEG4 swap). Being able to keep the 8PSK receivers in that list running will lower the cost.

Still looking for a discontinued effort on DISH's part. Their website is a little behind ... the "no longer sold" flag is missing on receivers that I know they are not placing. Every non-8PSK receivers are being placed is a roadblock in that transition.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> MPEG4 shouldn't be a requirement for a transition. The receivers are developed and in service. It would come down to cost. DISH may even offer a choice of a free upgrade to 8PSK for SD to help them or MPEG4 for HD as an extra charge/commitment for the customer.
> 
> Correct. The encoded signal should be about the same size. 8PSK just provides room for roughly 50% more of that signal on the same transponders. 12 SD channels per transponder becomes 18. Three transponders become two. And (if desired) HD and SD can be mixed on the same transponders. Going to 8PSK could be enough to keep DISH going ... and with 9 MPEG4 per transponder (current maximum) swapping two SDs for one HD down the road will free up the space needed for the final MPEG4 changeover.
> 
> ...


No, I'm saying that recievers put out there to replace non-8PSK receivers should be MPEG-4 capable, so that it will ease the load when the MPEG-4 transition occurs. Of course HD and EA help too.

Isn't this just the first step towards MPEG-4? Sure, it's not MPEG-4, but it still is hint in that direction...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> No, I'm saying that recievers put out there to replace non-8PSK receivers should be MPEG-4 capable, so that it will ease the load when the MPEG-4 transition occurs. Of course HD and EA help too.
> 
> Isn't this just the first step towards MPEG-4? Sure, it's not MPEG-4, but it still is hint in that direction...


At this point DISH needs to convert to either 8PSK SD or MPEG4. Either will do. If converting to 8PSK SD is cheaper than MPEG4 why not do it? Conversion to MPEG4 wouldn't be needed for another decade.

As long as DISH converts to something better than Turbo QPSK SD they will be fine.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> At this point DISH needs to convert to either 8PSK SD or MPEG4. Either will do. If converting to 8PSK SD is cheaper than MPEG4 why not do it? Conversion to MPEG4 wouldn't be needed for another decade.
> 
> As long as DISH converts to something better than Turbo QPSK SD they will be fine.


But if they go MPEG-4, they automatically go 8PSK, since all the MPEG-4 boxes handle it. Hence, switching to 8PSK, and only replacing obsolete boxes with MPEG-4 ones would be a baby step towards 100% MPEG-4. And let's face it, both providers have a serious bandwidth crunch.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

James Long said:


> MPEG4 shouldn't be a requirement for a transition. The receivers are developed and in service. It would come down to cost. DISH may even offer a choice of a free upgrade to 8PSK for SD to help them or MPEG4 for HD as an extra charge/commitment for the customer.
> 
> Correct. The encoded signal should be about the same size. 8PSK just provides room for roughly 50% more of that signal on the same transponders. 12 SD channels per transponder becomes 18. Three transponders become two. And (if desired) HD and SD can be mixed on the same transponders. Going to 8PSK could be enough to keep DISH going ... and with 9 MPEG4 per transponder (current maximum) swapping two SDs for one HD down the road will free up the space needed for the final MPEG4 changeover.


In theory switching to 8PSK gains 50% bandwidth but Dish always increases the Forward Error Correction for 8PSK TPs to reduce rainfade. The practical gain is around 35% so for SD channels, it goes from 12 channels per TP to 16 channels per TP. In other words 4 TPs can be reduced to 3 TPs with 8PSK.

I always wonder when someone says that Dish has a serious bandwidth crunch whether they have really looked at the numbers. For the Eastern Arc, (61.5, 72.7, 77 W) by 2012 Dish will have use of 88 TPs and for the Western Arc, (110, 119, 129 W) Dish has use of 82 TPs. When Dish fully implements MPEG-4 8PSK, how many CONUS TPs do folks think Dish needs versus TPs dedicated to spotbeams? 36 CONUS TPs gives one 252 HD channels at 7 channels per TP. Is that enough?


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

rocatman said:


> In theory switching to 8PSK gains 50% bandwidth but Dish always increases the Forward Error Correction for 8PSK TPs to reduce rainfade. The practical gain is around 35% so for SD channels, it goes from 12 channels per TP to 16 channels per TP. In other words 4 TPs can be reduced to 3 TPs with 8PSK.
> 
> I always wonder when someone says that Dish has a serious bandwidth crunch whether they have really looked at the numbers. For the Eastern Arc, (61.5, 72.7, 77 W) by 2012 Dish will have use of 88 TPs and for the Western Arc, (110, 119, 129 W) Dish has use of 82 TPs. When Dish fully implements MPEG-4 8PSK, how many CONUS TPs do folks think Dish needs versus TPs dedicated to spotbeams? 36 CONUS TPs gives one 252 HD channels at 7 channels per TP. Is that enough?


Well, the bandwidth crunch is caused by the archiac local channel system that this country('s slimy local news stations) refuses to give up, and the resulting 200thification of channels that results.

The proof that DISH has a bandwidth crunch can be seen very clearly. Hd-Lite for starters, they are missing a bunch of HD channels that they have in SD, and they are compressing too much. They also don't have the RSN's in 24/7 HD yet.

DirecTV compresses too much too, although not quite as much as DISH. They are missing even more channels, and don't have as many local markets.

Comcast triple-channels and in many markets has limited to almost no HD, while FIOS is completely out of bandwidth on their 860mhz cable system. U-Verse never had enough bandwidth from day 1. FIOS is the closest to having enough bandwidth. The only system right now that would have enough would either be FTTH IPTV or HFC with extensive SDV and small nodes so that streams are sent on-demand, since it is impossible to broadcast all the HD channels out there, even over an 860mhz plant with nothing else on it, as FIOS has proven.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> I always wonder when someone says that Dish has a serious bandwidth crunch whether they have really looked at the numbers. For the Eastern Arc, (61.5, 72.7, 77 W) by 2012 Dish will have use of 88 TPs and for the Western Arc, (110, 119, 129 W) Dish has use of 82 TPs. When Dish fully implements MPEG-4 8PSK, how many CONUS TPs do folks think Dish needs versus TPs dedicated to spotbeams? 36 CONUS TPs gives one 252 HD channels at 7 channels per TP. Is that enough?


Barely enough. There are currently 307 channels in AEP. Add 70 for RSNs and alternate games. Then start thinking about Latino and other non-AEP programming. I don't expect absolutely every channel to go HD, but I do expect most of them to go. When one can get to a near 400 channel "need" by counting today's SD offerings 252 seems small.

I wonder about those overly worried about EA bandwidth. It is mostly 8PSK already and the biggest problem (E3's failures) will be fixed with next month's launch. Replacing 77 with a spotbeam satellite next year will help with locals. But there is still more available space there before E15 than there is on WA with QPSK still supported.

BTW: What receivers can use Turbo Coded QPSK? All of the transponders except one on 77 are Turbo Coded. If Turbo Coding can turn up the bandwidth without leaving too many receivers behind it may free up a few transponders.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Well, the bandwidth crunch is caused by the archiac local channel system that this country('s slimy local news stations) refuses to give up, and the resulting 200thification of channels that results.


Spot beams fix that problem by reusing some transponders (currently 31 of the 82 Western Arc transponders) for hundreds of local spotbeams.



> The proof that DISH has a bandwidth crunch can be seen very clearly. Hd-Lite for starters, they are missing a bunch of HD channels that they have in SD, and they are compressing too much. They also don't have the RSN's in 24/7 HD yet.


DISH is doing pretty good with channels that are actually available in HD. Only a couple AT120 channels are available in HD but not carried (unless you want TBN/EWTN/Daystar/CTN. There are a handful of AT200 channels available in HD but not carried but half of those are not carried because of a dispute, not bandwidth). Only three AT250 channels have a HD feed up that isn't carried.

"Too much" is an opinion and we have other threads to discuss that opinion.

I believe DISH has done pretty good with the technology that satellite carriage allows and the challenges presented by covering a nation from a single system. (DISH has cheated that by having two systems available - EA and WA.)


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

James Long said:


> BTW: What receivers can use Turbo Coded QPSK? All of the transponders except one on 77 are Turbo Coded. If Turbo Coding can turn up the bandwidth without leaving too many receivers behind it may free up a few transponders.


It appears that Dish only uses Turbo Coded QPSK with MPEG-4 so at this point you need a VIP series receiver. By the way your numbers on channels quoted above are a bit misleading considering you add 115 audio channels for AEP so instead of 307 channels there are less than 200 video channels besides the sports packages and it looks about in the 250 - 275 range. The audio channels take up a bit of space but only a fraction of what video needs and if a number of channels stay SD then the 36 TP number I quoted is probably in the ballpark. I can't see needing more than 40 TPs for CONUS programming. For the satellites Dish has for the Western Arc currently, they could use up to 39 TPs for spotbeams which would leave 43 for CONUS. For the Eastern Arc, Dish will have use of 32 CONUS TPs at 72.7 W so they only need perhaps 8 more probably at 61.5 W. Dish could add back more international programming at 61.5 W including Dish Latino channels.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> Spot beams fix that problem by reusing some transponders (currently 31 of the 82 Western Arc transponders) for hundreds of local spotbeams.
> 
> DISH is doing pretty good with channels that are actually available in HD. Only a couple AT120 channels are available in HD but not carried (unless you want TBN/EWTN/Daystar/CTN. There are a handful of AT200 channels available in HD but not carried but half of those are not carried because of a dispute, not bandwidth). Only three AT250 channels have a HD feed up that isn't carried.
> 
> ...


Yes, DISH's selection of national HD channels is superb, but at the cost of broadcasting in HD-Lite and sacrificing the RSNs.

I know that there are spotbeams, but even if they are aligned as optimally as possible, you're still going to need a fair number of TP's, since the spots are nowhere near perfect lines for bandwidth re-use. Where we're not near the borders, we can re-use Hawaii, Alaska, Mexican and Canadian bandwidth, etc, etc, but it's still a bandwidth drain. I guess when they put 7 HD's per market (where available) and optimize the spotbeams as far as physically possible, then we will know how bad of an impact they will really have. Hopefully, locals won't need more TP's, and those two factors will cancel each other out.

61.5, once the new satellite it up, needs to have as much CONUS HD as possible, plus local markets that are already there, since a lot of people have split arc setups with 110/119/61.5. That would, however, leave more space on 72.7 for stuff.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> It appears that Dish only uses Turbo Coded QPSK with MPEG-4 so at this point you need a VIP series receiver. By the way your numbers on channels quoted above are a bit misleading considering you add 115 audio channels for AEP so instead of 307 channels there are less than 200 video channels besides the sports packages and it looks about in the 250 - 275 range. The audio channels take up a bit of space but only a fraction of what video needs and if a number of channels stay SD then the 36 TP number I quoted is probably in the ballpark. I can't see needing more than 40 TPs for CONUS programming. For the satellites Dish has for the Western Arc currently, they could use up to 39 TPs for spotbeams which would leave 43 for CONUS. For the Eastern Arc, Dish will have use of 32 CONUS TPs at 72.7 W so they only need perhaps 8 more probably at 61.5 W. Dish could add back more international programming at 61.5 W including Dish Latino channels.


Sorry ... I missed the edit or I would have replied to your changes yesterday. Thanks for reminding me about the audio channels. I had the 307 number stuck in my mind at that moment and forgot to discount it. Adding RSNs still puts DISH 50 channels "short". There will be some channels that won't go HD ... but 1/6th of the channels?

The big if seems to be conversion to MPEG4. Until that happens the brick wall is looming - and it doesn't seem like DISH is serious about the conversion process.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Yes, DISH's selection of national HD channels is superb, but at the cost of broadcasting in HD-Lite and sacrificing the RSNs.
> 
> I know that there are spotbeams, but even if they are aligned as optimally as possible, you're still going to need a fair number of TP's, since the spots are nowhere near perfect lines for bandwidth re-use. Where we're not near the borders, we can re-use Hawaii, Alaska, Mexican and Canadian bandwidth, etc, etc, but it's still a bandwidth drain. I guess when they put 7 HD's per market (where available) and optimize the spotbeams as far as physically possible, then we will know how bad of an impact they will really have. Hopefully, locals won't need more TP's, and those two factors will cancel each other out.
> 
> 61.5, once the new satellite it up, needs to have as much CONUS HD as possible, plus local markets that are already there, since a lot of people have split arc setups with 110/119/61.5. That would, however, leave more space on 72.7 for stuff.


I think you need to do some research on Dish's spotbeams. Currently Dish uses 31 TPs out of 82 available for the Western Arc they could use 7 more on the E-14 satellite. Whether you like the situation with locals or not, Dish needs to dedicate more TPs to locals than to national programming and it is fairly obvious that is the trend they are following.

Adding more CONUS HD to 61.5 W after the E-15 satellite is launched would be fairly short-sighted since Dish will be gaining more CONUS TPs at 72.7 W in the not too distant future. Dish also wants to reduce/eliminate split arc setups like 110/119/61.5. In addition, Dish plans to launch a massive spotbeam satellite, E-16 to 61.5 W at the end of 2011/early 2012 so adding CONUS HD to a slot and then having to move it in perhaps 18 months doesn't make a lot of sense from long term perspective.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Does anyone know how many new satellites available to Dish are in the works for launch in the next three years?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> Does anyone know how many new satellites available to Dish are in the works for launch in the next three years?


There is one next month (active by September) and two next year.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

phrelin said:


> Does anyone know how many new satellites available to Dish are in the works for launch in the next three years?


There are three that there is definite information about:

E-15 - CONUS only going to 61.5 W launching in July 2010
QuetzSat-1 - spotbeam and perhaps CONUS going to 77 W launching in November 2011.
E-16 - spotbeam and perhaps CONUS going to 61.5 W launching in late 2011 early 2012.

I am not sure of the timetable on Dish's "reverse DBS" or "Expansion Band" satellites but the ones that have been mentioned are in the vicinty of the Eastern Arc where Dish has full license. I believe Dish only has license to parts of the Western Arc Expansion Band slots.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

rocatman said:


> There are three that there is definite information about:
> 
> E-15 - CONUS only going to 61.5 W launching in July 2010
> QuetzSat-1 - spotbeam and perhaps CONUS going to 77 W launching in November 2011.
> ...


Hmmm. Well, I don't know much about this. To the extent that Dish can move any eastern locals off of the WA could a transponder with spotbeams aimed East be turned into a "western Conus?" Or is this pretty much a physical limitation?


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

phrelin said:


> Hmmm. Well, I don't know much about this. To the extent that Dish can move any eastern locals off of the WA could a transponder with spotbeams aimed East be turned into a "western Conus?" Or is this pretty much a physical limitation?


Dish could convert a spotbeam TP to a CONUS TP but it would affect any spotbeam east or west that uses that TP. for example, dish could have only used 4 spotbeam TPs when they put E-14 on -line but that would have limited the number of local markets that could be provided service across the U.S. not just in the east because that TP frequency is used by many spotbeams.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

rocatman said:


> I think you need to do some research on Dish's spotbeams. Currently Dish uses 31 TPs out of 82 available for the Western Arc they could use 7 more on the E-14 satellite. Whether you like the situation with locals or not, Dish needs to dedicate more TPs to locals than to national programming and it is fairly obvious that is the trend they are following.
> 
> Adding more CONUS HD to 61.5 W after the E-15 satellite is launched would be fairly short-sighted since Dish will be gaining more CONUS TPs at 72.7 W in the not too distant future. Dish also wants to reduce/eliminate split arc setups like 110/119/61.5. In addition, Dish plans to launch a massive spotbeam satellite, E-16 to 61.5 W at the end of 2011/early 2012 so adding CONUS HD to a slot and then having to move it in perhaps 18 months doesn't make a lot of sense from long term perspective.


I know that they have to have a bunch of TP's out there for locals. It's not their fault that our TV system in this country is complete insanity, but from an engineering perspective, the absolutely absurd broadcasting system we have makes for demand and funding for some really neat technology in spot beams.

They need to keep as much CONUS on 61.5 as is possible, because most of the setups around here are split arc, I'd imagine there are a bunch of other markets that are the same.

What's happenign to Rainbow 1? I know it's handling spotbeams for locals now up there, although it wasn't originally designed for spotbeam use. Not sure why it has spotbeams at all. Even with a new satellite, why would they have to move the CONUS back? Isn't E-16 just going to use the same TP's as Rainbow 1 now, but re-use them more efficiently? If they are launching new local markets there, why aren't they putting them at 72.7 or 77 to keep as much CONUS space on 61.5 as possible, since there are a lot of split arc setups?



phrelin said:


> Hmmm. Well, I don't know much about this. To the extent that Dish can move any eastern locals off of the WA could a transponder with spotbeams aimed East be turned into a "western Conus?" Or is this pretty much a physical limitation?


It's more efficient to have some smaller eastern markets on WA, as otherwise those spots would go unused, since they have something on them in the west anyways, so they can't be used for CONUS. That frees up space on EA.

The most efficient thing would be to move the EA farther west. They have WA as far east as West Virginia, why not have EA farther west? Or are the markets just not close enough to each other to gain any benefit? VOOM did install on the west coast, although realistically, EA can't go out nearly that far because of LOS issues.

Another possibility is to have 148 serve some markets and Alaska/ Hawaii west of the rockies.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> They need to keep as much CONUS on 61.5 as is possible, because most of the setups around here are split arc, I'd imagine there are a bunch of other markets that are the same.


Split arc is a leftover. A long time ago DISH had everyone on 119-110 with a wing dish aimed at either 148 or 61.5 for "must carry locals" or HD (which was a couple of national channels only at the time). Then DISH got use of 129 and the wings became 129 and 61.5, with 119-110-129 available on one dish. (Yes, I'm skipping the SuperDish fiasco.)

When 72.7 and 77 became available DISH created the eastern arc with all the core programming from 119-110 duplicated in MPEG4 on 72.7.

The current design is for people to get ONE complete arc. Eastern or Western. There are areas where line of sight is a challenge and using split arc is a crutch - but the solution is not to cram everything on 61.5 (putting off the problem until the next time 61.5 is full) but to get the proper arc dish installed.



> What's happenign to Rainbow 1? I know it's handling spotbeams for locals now up there, although it wasn't originally designed for spotbeam use. Not sure why it has spotbeams at all.


I'm not sure where to begin on that one. Not designed for spotbeam use? Are you kidding? Those spacemen in the commercials for DISH are not real ... DISH didn't magically convert a ConUS satellite to spotbeam after buying it from Cablevision/Rainbow DBS/Voom. It _*was*_ designed for spotbeam use.

It has spotbeams because that's the way Rainbow DBS wanted it built. Not a bad idea really. Having those spots, although limited due to needing to build multiple uplink centers to feed them, has been very useful to DISH. The use to Rainbow would have been limited (unless they got more transponders at 61.5 from DISH or Dominion/Sky Angel) but it is fortunate that it was designed for spotbeams.



> Even with a new satellite, why would they have to move the CONUS back? Isn't E-16 just going to use the same TP's as Rainbow 1 now, but re-use them more efficiently?


Likely not. E-15 has been designed to feed ONLY from Cheyenne or Gilbert. Which means uplinks from other uplink centers are not limited to transponders in spotbeam mode. E-16 will be more like E-7, E-8, E-10, E-14 and Ciel-2. Using nearly every available uplink to serve a few transponders dedicated to spots.

The limited design of E-12 (R1) would require 14 uplink centers to use all 22 spots ... and five of the spots are so far west that line of sight is a problem. The rest of DISH's fleet use six uplink centers to feed all of their beams. That will be the design of E-16 ... less uplinks, more spots per transponder. E-14 uses different transponders for spots than E-7, E-10 uses different transponders than E-8 did. Think outside the box.



> If they are launching new local markets there, why aren't they putting them at 72.7 or 77 to keep as much CONUS space on 61.5 as possible, since there are a lot of split arc setups?


The spots exist ... they might as well be used. Once you have turned off a ConUS transponder to use two spots on that transponder why not use all of the spots on that transponder that you can?


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

It will be interesting what Dish will do with the E-12 (Rainbow-1) spotbeams once E-15 is in place. Dish could add as many as 32 spotbeam TPs to the 16 spots that they currently use at 61.5 W. This would be with TPs 17, 19, 21 and 23 that are either not being used or being used for CONUS programming. Dish may not want to use TP 23 since they only have temporary authority for use but that would still leave 23 spotbeam TPs. At 7 HD channels per TP, Dish could provide 224 HD locals or 161 HD locals with 32 or 23 TPs respectively.

To follow-up on a previous discussion in this thread, if Dish were to dedicate 40 TPs for CONUS programming, they could use 35 for HD channels and at 7 channels per TP that would give them 245 HD channels. If they dedicate 1 TP for SD channels, that would add another 24 - 30 channels. This would leave Dish with another 4 TPs for PPV or other stuff including audio although Dish should be able to add a few audio channels here and there to the HD and/or SD TPs where they have a little excess bandwidth. For the EA, Dish could eventually put most of the national programming at 72.7 W with some of the national speciality programming on CONUS TPs at 61.5 W.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> Split arc is a leftover. A long time ago DISH had everyone on 119-110 with a wing dish aimed at either 148 or 61.5 for "must carry locals" or HD (which was a couple of national channels only at the time). Then DISH got use of 129 and the wings became 129 and 61.5, with 119-110-129 available on one dish. (Yes, I'm skipping the SuperDish fiasco.)
> 
> When 72.7 and 77 became available DISH created the eastern arc with all the core programming from 119-110 duplicated in MPEG4 on 72.7.
> 
> ...


The fact is there are more split are setups than Eastern Arc setups in the northeast. They should keep all the CONUS HD on 61.5, as well as locals that are already there. The other issue is that most split arc users don't have all MPEG-4 boxes, so if they need EA, now they need a 1000.4 and an existing 500. Granted, they could be two separate systems.

I was asking if they are going to use more TP's for HD with E16, or just up the re-use of the spots that Rainbow 1 is using now. I know you can't make spots out of CONUS transponders, but when VOOM built the satellite, they had no plans to ever use the spots that were built.

How can your uplink center not be within 20 miles of the transmitting tower for the locals?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> I was asking if they are going to use more TP's for HD with E16, or just up the re-use of the spots that Rainbow 1 is using now. I know you can't make spots out of CONUS transponders, but when VOOM built the satellite, they had no plans to ever use the spots that were built.


Your exact words were "it wasn't originally designed for spotbeam use". Obviously it WAS designed for spotbeam use or there wouldn't be spotbeams there.

Why would VOOM build a satellite with spotbeams without plans to use them? Was VOOM stupid? Why pay for the engineering and construction if they didn't want the flexibility for an unknown future? It is a shame that their design didn't include ConUS transponders on all 32 frequencies. That too would have been looking past the day one use to an unknown future.

When the designs for E16 are available we'll let you know how many spots and where they will be. I'm expecting more spots on less transponders but that is only a guess.



> How can your uplink center not be within 20 miles of the transmitting tower for the locals?


Fiber optic presence in 160 locations. One of the POPs is within miles of the main transmitters for my locals. Another POP is at the uplink center in Illinois. Fiber carries the signals to the uplink.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Bigg said:


> The fact is there are more split are setups than Eastern Arc setups in the northeast. They should keep all the CONUS HD on 61.5, as well as locals that are already there. The other issue is that most split arc users don't have all MPEG-4 boxes, so if they need EA, now they need a 1000.4 and an existing 500. Granted, they could be two separate systems.


I don't quite understand your logic here. First you state that Dish has a bandwidth crunch but then you want Dish to take actions to accomodate split arc setups instead of pursuing the obvious long range goal of getting rid of non-MPEG-4 receivers so they can maximize their licensed/leased bandwidth. It needs to be recognized that in the next 18 months Dish will gain access to 11 TPs at 72.7 W. All the TPs at 72.7 W are CONUS TPs since Dish leases these TPs on Nimiq 5, a Canadian satellite at a Canadian licensed slot. To maximize EA bandwidth useage, Dish long term plans need to include putting as much national programming on these CONUS TPs at 72.7 W. When the E-15 satellite is operational in a few months, Dish should move the small number of locals at 72.7 W over to 61.5 W. They might be able to use additional E-12 spotbeam capacity by using TPs 17, 19, 21 and 23.

As a side note on Voom, a few months prior to service shutdown, Voom was plannnig to lease Ku band TPs on AMC-6 at 72 W. This was going to be done in order to move national programming there so that some of the spotbeam TPs on Rainbow-1 could be used. This would have required the installation of Superdish sized dishes.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> When the E-15 satellite is operational in a few months, Dish should move the small number of locals at 72.7 W over to 61.5 W.


There are 26 "locals" on 72.7 ... all ION affiliates on the same transponder as the national channel 216 ION feed.



> They might be able to use additional E-12 spotbeam capacity by using TPs 17, 19, 21 and 23.


This I agree with. The 100% HD carriage requirement within 2 years (in markets that have HD) will require some more space. These transponders may provide enough space for that conversion to complete.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> Your exact words were "it wasn't originally designed for spotbeam use". Obviously it WAS designed for spotbeam use or there wouldn't be spotbeams there.
> 
> Why would VOOM build a satellite with spotbeams without plans to use them? Was VOOM stupid? Why pay for the engineering and construction if they didn't want the flexibility for an unknown future? It is a shame that their design didn't include ConUS transponders on all 32 frequencies. That too would have been looking past the day one use to an unknown future.
> 
> ...


It was designed to have flexibility, but they had no plans of using it with spotbeams. VOOM's business model didn't involve spots.



rocatman said:


> I don't quite understand your logic here. First you state that Dish has a bandwidth crunch but then you want Dish to take actions to accomodate split arc setups instead of pursuing the obvious long range goal of getting rid of non-MPEG-4 receivers so they can maximize their licensed/leased bandwidth. It needs to be recognized that in the next 18 months Dish will gain access to 11 TPs at 72.7 W. All the TPs at 72.7 W are CONUS TPs since Dish leases these TPs on Nimiq 5, a Canadian satellite at a Canadian licensed slot. To maximize EA bandwidth useage, Dish long term plans need to include putting as much national programming on these CONUS TPs at 72.7 W. When the E-15 satellite is operational in a few months, Dish should move the small number of locals at 72.7 W over to 61.5 W. They might be able to use additional E-12 spotbeam capacity by using TPs 17, 19, 21 and 23.
> 
> As a side note on Voom, a few months prior to service shutdown, Voom was plannnig to lease Ku band TPs on AMC-6 at 72 W. This was going to be done in order to move national programming there so that some of the spotbeam TPs on Rainbow-1 could be used. This would have required the installation of Superdish sized dishes.


What on earth would VOOM have done with spots? They were a CONUS HD-centric service. A huge failure at that, but that was due to a lack of content.

I think DISH should compress the spots down for existing local markets, and add any local markets that can be added wtihout using more TP's for spots at 61.5, and then put as many national HD's up on 61.5 for split arc. Then, they should put new spots at 72.7.

I don't think DISH has enough bandwidth to ease up the compression, run all the RSNs 24/7, get rid of HD-Lite, add missing national HD's, and add all 200+ markets in HD, which I think should be a goal. I think the best way around that would be to plan out how to have HD LIL coverage for all markets, and figure out where the spots need to go, and add capacity using Ka band like DirecTV, or other types of Ku band that aren't just full power DBS if they can't acheive all that just via MPEG-4 conversion, optimizing all of the spots, and serving the west coast wtih 148 to fill in the role that EA plays along the Eastern seaboard.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be so many channels that have maybe 30 channels worth of content spread out over...

Given the situation that they are in, one of these companies needs to step up to the plate and just go all out to really dominate in channel carriage.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> It was designed to have flexibility, but they had no plans of using it with spotbeams. VOOM's business model didn't involve spots.


Is it so hard to say "you are right, R1 was designed with spotbeams" instead of squirming away from what was clearly said?

The initial service launch did not use the spotbeams ... but business plans for successful businesses go beyond the initial. Cablevision/Rainbow DBS/Voom paid good money for those spots. They would have to be a lousy business to do so with no plan to eventually use them. (Then again, they went out of the satellite business - so perhaps they were lousy at the satellite business.)



> What on earth would VOOM have done with spots? They were a CONUS HD-centric service. A huge failure at that, but that was due to a lack of content.


Voom did well despite their high cost ... their biggest challenge was lack of HD penetration. They were selling to a niche "HD only" market that, while starving for HD content, were very small. The lack of channels that were, at the time, available only in SD turned them into a second service for many subscribers - and not many will pay for two satellite services at the same time. The growth of the competition (DISH and DirecTV) who could offer HD for $10 more than the packages people were still paying for made Voom less cost effective. They had loyal subscribers who still to this day defend their business model but they just chose a niche that didn't survive. (DISH offers HD only service but it is not advertised.)

Dominion DBS also marketed to a very small niche market but they kept their prices affordable and managed to get "free" satellite space - so Dominion didn't have the high costs of buying a satellite and maintaining a satellite uplink.



> I think DISH should compress the spots down for existing local markets, and add any local markets that can be added wtihout using more TP's for spots at 61.5, and then put as many national HD's up on 61.5 for split arc. Then, they should put new spots at 72.7.


The spots are as designed. DISH can't change where they are without replacing the satellite. If you're talking about a design for E-16 then I agree and have already stated what you're appearing to suggest. But nothing can be done with E-12 other than put more spots into use. Something that would be easily done once the pressure of having failed transponders is removed next month.

Fixing the "split arc" problem by moving 30 channels over from 72.7 would be possible but only a temporary fix and would go against DISH's business plans for Eastern Arc. The goal is ConUS on 72.7. Delivering all HD in local markets isn't just a desire, it is a requirement of law. I'd count on seeing the TP 17, 19 and 21 spots put into use (not sure about 23 but they could be used too). At least until E-16 arrives on station and E-12 becomes a spare.



> I think the best way around that would be to plan out how to have HD LIL coverage for all markets, and figure out where the spots need to go, ...


Take a good look at E-14, E-10 and Ciel-2 and expect the same out of E-16 and Quetzsat-1. DISH will do the best that they can.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> Is it so hard to say "you are right, R1 was designed with spotbeams" instead of squirming away from what was clearly said?
> 
> The initial service launch did not use the spotbeams ... but business plans for successful businesses go beyond the initial. Cablevision/Rainbow DBS/Voom paid good money for those spots. They would have to be a lousy business to do so with no plan to eventually use them. (Then again, they went out of the satellite business - so perhaps they were lousy at the satellite business.)
> 
> ...


Rainbow-1 was built with spotbeams as a "what if", they were not designed to be used by VOOM or VOOM's service. That "what if" ended up being a good decision, and it made the satellite more valuable, when it, along with the other peices of VOOM, were sold off to Echostar.

I think their problem was carrying the cable networks, and lacking a DVR. If they had not tried to also be expanded basic cable, their rates would have been lower, and they would have been a viable second service in addition to D* or E*. Not having a DVR was also killer, since the others did, and they also alienated themselves from most of their potential customers in the SF or Pacific Northwest areas because of their position so far east with no western mirror.

I was talking about when they go from Rainbow-1 to Echostar 16. What I'm saying, is getting more markets on the same TP's currently being used for spots on Rainbow-1 by moving to Echostar-16 is great, but they shouldn't dedicate more TP's to spots at 61.5.

Why 72.7 for CONUS, and not 61.5? 61.5 is the position that has a ton of people pointing at it for CONUS HD, and not 72.7. An even better option than what I mentioned above is to reduce the number of local TP's at 61.5 to free up space for CONUS HD. Swapping out a bunch of 300's for 1000.4's, and running two systems in a single house is not exactly a great solution. 61.5 CONUS is a better one.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Why 72.7 for CONUS, and not 61.5? 61.5 is the position that has a ton of people pointing at it for CONUS HD, and not 72.7. An even better option than what I mentioned above is to reduce the number of local TP's at 61.5 to free up space for CONUS HD.


The satellite the Canadians put at 72.7 does not do spotbeams. Eventually DISH will have use of all 32 transponders at 72.7 to be their core EA MPEG4 service.

61.5 is a US slot controlled completely by DISH (two transponders are officially "temporary" but DISH will have use of them for the forseeable future). 77 is a Mexican slot but it too is controlled completely by DISH (with obligations to provide some service to Mexico - currently 1/4th of the capacity is used for the Mexican DISH Network service).

The completely controlled slots are good places for long term investments in expensive spotbeam satellites. I expect Quezsat-1 to look a lot like Ciel-2 (Ciel-2 is half spots and half ConUS). E-15 is all ConUS and will compliment E-12 until E-16 arrives. E-12 and E-15 will work together similar to E-10 and E-11 (where E-10 provides spots on 10 transponders and E-11 provides ConUS on 19 transponders). E-16 MAY bring the number of transponders used for spots down but with all the ConUS space available at 72.7 making the split 12 transponders spots 20 transponders ConUS would not be a bad design.

DISH needs to get away from supporting split arc. It will be expensive to upgrade everyone to the 1000.4 dish and all MPEG4 equipment but DISH needs to do that for the not so distant future.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Bigg said:


> I was talking about when they go from Rainbow-1 to Echostar 16. What I'm saying, is getting more markets on the same TP's currently being used for spots on Rainbow-1 by moving to Echostar-16 is great, but they shouldn't dedicate more TP's to spots at 61.5.
> 
> Why 72.7 for CONUS, and not 61.5? 61.5 is the position that has a ton of people pointing at it for CONUS HD, and not 72.7. An even better option than what I mentioned above is to reduce the number of local TP's at 61.5 to free up space for CONUS HD. Swapping out a bunch of 300's for 1000.4's, and running two systems in a single house is not exactly a great solution. 61.5 CONUS is a better one.


You obviously don't understand or didn't read the situation regarding 72.7 W. Dish is leasing TPs on Nimiq 5, a satellite owned by TeleSat. Actually Dish is subleasing the TPs from Bell TV who is leasing them from TeleSat. TeleSat and Bell TV are Canadian companies and 72.7 W is a Canadian licensed DBS slot. Dish did not have this leasing agreement in place until the construction of Nimiq 5 was well under way. Nimiq 5 was launched last September, has a expected life of 15 years so I don't think Dish is going to have spotbeam capability at 72.7 W in the foreseeable future. That's the reality so what you want Dish to do is only wishful thinking and not reality based.

In regards to spotbeams, please perform some research on how many locals channels Dish needs to provide versus CONUS channels. As others have posted, in the not too distant future, Dish is going to have to provide all the HD channels in a market to carry any HD channels in that market. This is going to require a lot more TPs dedicated to spotbeams than TPs dedicated to CONUS programming. The breakdown of what Dish is planning for the EA is unknown at this time because information about the E-16 and QuetzSat-1 satellites have not be provided which is done typically through FCC filings. We do know that for the WA, Dish has license to 82 TPs at 110/119/129 W and the satellites Dish has deployed there can use as many 39 TPs for spotbeams which would leave 43 for CONUS programming. This doesn't mean Dish will use all 39 TPs for spotbeams but this is dish's currently WA spotbeam capability.

I have speculated in other posts that Dish could put most of the EA CONUS programming on the 72.7 W slot and perhaps some of the higher subscription cost CONUS porgramming on the 61.5 W slot and/or the 77 W slot when both E-16 and QuetzSat-1 are operational. Then a large number of EA subscribers would only need to have a dish pointed at 61.5/72.7W or 72.7/77 W. This may not be cost effective to have these multiple setups for the EA but perhaps using a standard 1000.4 dish with different LNB setups would be cost effective. It certainly would be easier for the installer to point the dish for two slots versus three.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

James Long said:


> The completely controlled slots are good places for long term investments in expensive spotbeam satellites. I expect Quezsat-1 to look a lot like Ciel-2 (Ciel-2 is half spots and half ConUS). E-15 is all ConUS and will compliment E-12 until E-16 arrives. E-12 and E-15 will work together similar to E-10 and E-11 (where E-10 provides spots on 10 transponders and E-11 provides ConUS on 19 transponders). E-16 MAY bring the number of transponders used for spots down but with all the ConUS space available at 72.7 making the split 12 transponders spots 20 transponders ConUS would not be a bad design.


I don't see why Dish would need 52 CONUS TPs for the EA between 61.5 W and 72.7 W. As a side note, I really wonder if Dish can use 77W for true EA CONUS because of the proximity of the 82 W Canadian slot. I would expect Dish to design E-16 to use at least 16 TPs for spotbeams although some of these might be those that E-12 can provide as spotbeams. My guess would be that Dish will use at least 20 TPs for spotbeams at 61.5 W between E-12 and E-16.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I expect the design of E-16 to take E-12 out of service .., leaving it as a spare. But putting E-16's spots on mostly non E-12 transponders isn't a bad idea.

72.7 vs 77 works so 82 vs 77 should work but they are different companies. It is easier to "interfere" with yourself without complaint.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

James Long said:


> The satellite the Canadians put at 72.7 does not do spotbeams. Eventually DISH will have use of all 32 transponders at 72.7 to be their core EA MPEG4 service.
> 
> 61.5 is a US slot controlled completely by DISH (two transponders are officially "temporary" but DISH will have use of them for the forseeable future). 77 is a Mexican slot but it too is controlled completely by DISH (with obligations to provide some service to Mexico - currently 1/4th of the capacity is used for the Mexican DISH Network service).
> 
> ...


There are a LOT of split arc setups. Since the lease on the Canadian slot lasts most of the way through the useful life of a satellite, why not put a spot beam bird there?



rocatman said:


> I have speculated in other posts that Dish could put most of the EA CONUS programming on the 72.7 W slot and perhaps some of the higher subscription cost CONUS porgramming on the 61.5 W slot and/or the 77 W slot when both E-16 and QuetzSat-1 are operational. Then a large number of EA subscribers would only need to have a dish pointed at 61.5/72.7W or 72.7/77 W. This may not be cost effective to have these multiple setups for the EA but perhaps using a standard 1000.4 dish with different LNB setups would be cost effective. It certainly would be easier for the installer to point the dish for two slots versus three.


I know that they need more spots than CONUS, I'm just saying the 61.5 should be mostly CONUS, because of split arc in the bigger markets that launched LIL's on Rainbow 1, or where people use OTA.

They are not going to have a two satellite setup, that would defeat the entire thing they are doing with arcs. They want two arcs, each with a complete set of programming for the markets they serve.



rocatman said:


> I don't see why Dish would need 52 CONUS TPs for the EA between 61.5 W and 72.7 W. As a side note, I really wonder if Dish can use 77W for true EA CONUS because of the proximity of the 82 W Canadian slot. I would expect Dish to design E-16 to use at least 16 TPs for spotbeams although some of these might be those that E-12 can provide as spotbeams. My guess would be that Dish will use at least 20 TPs for spotbeams at 61.5 W between E-12 and E-16.


Well, 77 seems to work. That being said, EA isn't CONUS per se. 

Does anyone know if EA is broadcasting a legitimate CONUS footprint, or a mega-spot over the eastern half of the country? I know Rainbow 1 is true CONUS, but that's only on it's now unused CONUS transponders. EA is low on the west coast, but still see-able, so to speak.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Bigg said:


> There are a LOT of split arc setups. Since the lease on the Canadian slot lasts most of the way through the useful life of a satellite, why not put a spot beam bird there?


Most of the useful life isn't enough. Besides, with the number of spots at 61.5 and 77 DISH doesn't need spots at 72.7 and can cheaply lease the Canadian satellite.



> I know that they need more spots than CONUS, I'm just saying the 61.5 should be mostly CONUS, because of split arc in the bigger markets that launched LIL's on Rainbow 1, or where people use OTA.


You'll probably get your wish ... There are currently 8 transponders used for spots at 61.5 - four more can be used on E12 leaving the rest of the transponders available. 20 ConUS 12 spots is mostly ConUS.



> They are not going to have a two satellite setup, that would defeat the entire thing they are doing with arcs. They want two arcs, each with a complete set of programming for the markets they serve.


Unless they put needed ConUS on 77 a Dish500 will work fine for anyone with locals on 61.5. Leave the 1000.4 dishes for people who need 77 for locals or perhaps internationals or other non AT content.



> Does anyone know if EA is broadcasting a legitimate CONUS footprint, or a mega-spot over the eastern half of the country? I know Rainbow 1 is true CONUS, but that's only on it's now unused CONUS transponders. EA is low on the west coast, but still see-able, so to speak.


61.5 is the furthest east so the other satellite would have a better sightline to the west coast. 61.5 would be the "worst case" for low horizons.

Footprints of the new E-15 can be found here: http://jameslong.name/e615.html

The satellite at 77 was designed for 110 so it's pattern isn't as good ...
http://jameslong.name/e77.html but is still ConUS (contiguous US).

I don't have coverage of 72.7 on my site, but here is a map on another site ...
http://satbeams.com/footprints?lat=...5&zoom=3&beam=6113&type=normal&name=Temporary
It too is ConUS.


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