# A malicious little feature of the R15?



## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

(My apologies if this is in the FAQ, but I have not seen it discussed before....)

On two occasions last weekend, my children were watching shows that we record using a SL when the programs suddenly stopped playing and all we could see was a blue screen. When I went back to MyVOD, the programs were gone!

The SL options are to record all episodes, keep at most 2, keep until disk full. 

It turns out that the problem is the SL. On both occasions, they were watching the oldest of two recorded episodes. The moment that a new episode came on and started to be recorded, the R15 immediately deleted the oldest episode, which just happened to be the episode that my kids were watching!


To the R15 programming team: PLEASE ADD A CHECK TO YOUR CODE TO SEE IF A PROGRAM IS CURRENTLY BEING PLAYED BEFORE YOU DELETE IT. ANOTHER POSSIBILITY WOULD BE FOR YOU TO SIMPLY SET THE KEEP FLAG WHENEVER A PROGRAM IS PLAYING AND THEN REMOVE THE FLAG WHEN PLAYBACK IF FINISHED.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

It's been mentioned, but I hadn't seen it for myself until last night. It took me a few seconds to realize what happened. It ended up starting a "discussion" with my wife about this thing. I guess I hadn't properly represented what I was doing with the R15 (she asked how much longer we were going to keep it). I really don't know how much longer I'm going to last with this thing.


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## wohlfie (Dec 28, 2005)

This has been brought up before, but I am not usre if anyone came up with a good work-around.

I typically set all my SLs to "keep all" and just monitor my disk space myself. I don't like the idea of the machine deciding to delete something for me. If I recorded it, I probably want to watch it! (of course I am a fairly light user and don't record children's shows that air 30 times a week  ).


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

Absolutely correct! "keep all" is not an option with children's programs....


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

I think the better work around is to make the show your watching with K and then it won't delete it while watching it. But that's a PIA and really annoying if you forget.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I think the better work around is to make the show your watching with K and then it won't delete it while watching it. But that's a PIA and really annoying if you forget.


Yeah, but then wouldn't the R15 delete the next oldest show in the SL?


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

jpl said:


> Yeah, but then wouldn't the R15 delete the next oldest show in the SL?


I don't think it would, because marking it Keep takes it out of the SL for the purposes of the keep at most count.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

walters said:


> I don't think it would, because marking it Keep takes it out of the SL for the purposes of the keep at most count.


Exactly.


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## jimbo09 (Sep 26, 2006)

I Have a "keep at most 5" also, this is good because it allows you to record a weeks worth of daily programming. I am not sure if there are more numerical options.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

Actually, I believe that KEEP only takes it out of the SL episode count if you also specify KEEP UNTIL DISK FULL in the SL (i.e., you must manually specify KEEP if you want to keep it indefinitely).

One workaround that I had tried was to set up an AUOTRECORD (I assume that SL works the same) with KEEP UNTIL I DELETE and KEEP AT MOST 3. However, this did not seem to work unless I also specified KEEP ALL. Specifically, when I specified keeping a fixed number of episodes, the AR still deleted the oldest episode even though it was designated as a "keeper".

Thus, KEEP UNTIL I DELETE may not mean KEEP INDEFINITELY if the particular recording is part of an AR or SL.

I guess this makes sense to me. Otherwise, if you define an AR or SL with KEEP UNTIL I DELETE and the programs were NEVER automatically deleted, then it could very quickly fill up your HD (esp. with children shows) while purging other recorded programs and eventually running out of room to record anything new.

Here is a summary of my experience with the AR/SL parameters. Please correct me if you've experienced something different.

AR/SL option 1
keep=all
keep until=disk full
Result: keeps adding new recordings with no max number of recordings, automatically purges oldest recording when disk full

AR/SL option 2
keep=all
keep until=I delete
Result: keeps adding new recordings with no max number of recordings, must manually purge recordings, this is the one case that may totally fill your HD

AR/SL option 3
keep=n(<=5)
keep until=disk full
Result: keeps adding new recordings, but keeps a max of n recordings, if n recordings exist and new recording starts then oldest recording is purged, automatically purges oldest recording when disk full; 
EXCEPTION: if a recording that is part of an AR/SL has its KEEP flag is set manually with the blue button or keep until=I delete parameter, then this recording is removed from the episode count (meaning >n recording are kept) and it must be manually purged.

AR/SL option 4
keep=n(<=5)
keep until=I delete
Result: keeps adding new recordings up to a max number of episodes, if n recordings exist and new recording starts then oldest recording is purged, these recordings are never purged due to full disk.
COMMENT: I have not tried removing the KEEP flag on one of these recordings to see what the AR/SL would do with it, but I assume that it would remain in the list until it became the oldest recording and was then purged.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

zortapa said:


> Thus, KEEP UNTIL I DELETE may not mean KEEP INDEFINITELY if the particular recording is part of an AR or SL.
> 
> I guess this makes sense to me. Otherwise, if you define an AR or SL with KEEP UNTIL I DELETE and the programs were NEVER automatically deleted, then it could very quickly fill up your HD (esp. with children shows) while purging other recorded programs and eventually running out of room to record anything new.


No. The other alternative (the correct one, IMO, as we've debated many times before) is to just stop recording that SL once you reach the limit until the user deletes one of them.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Under Option 4 if you manually set the KEEP flag and then remove it the show will remain until disk is full. Once you set the KEEP flag it is removed from the SL count and control.

walters is correct. The topic that's been discussed a "few" times. KEEP UNTIL I DELETE means KEEP UNTIL I DELETE. Except on the R15 and HR20.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Under Option 4 if you manually set the KEEP flag and then remove it the show will remain until disk is full. Once you set the KEEP flag it is removed from the SL count and control.


I didn't know that. Thanks for the warning.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Under Option 4 if you manually set the KEEP flag and then remove it the show will remain until disk is full. Once you set the KEEP flag it is removed from the SL count and control.


First, I apologize for resurrecting a dead topic -- I must have missed the discussion of my specific issue described below.

Wolffpack, when you say "manually set the KEEP flag", do you mean by pressing the blue button only? Or do you also mean having this set automatically in the SL parameters which is the default under option 4?

My specific issue is this: I have an AR with the KEEP flag automatically set in the AR definition. I also specify to keep at most 3 recordings. Even with the KEEP flag set, this AR deletes recordings when it starts to record a new program and there are already 3 recordings. (Given other commonalities between the AR and SL logic, I assume SLs work the same way.)

What I want is:
- never to have any of these recordings deleted due to a full disk (AR parameter keep until=I delete)
- not to have my HD inadvertantly filled up with multiple recordings identified by this AR (AR parameter keep=at most 3 recordings - keep all has burned me before)
- to keep one or more of these AR recordings indefinitely (Haven't figured out how to do this yet with the above settings.)

Perhaps it will remove recordings from the AR count and control if I remove and then reset the KEEP flag.....? But if it takes manual intervention like this, then I probably should change the AR keep until parameter (from "I delete" to "disk full") and then manually set the KEEP flags.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

zortapa said:


> First, I apologize for resurrecting a dead topic -- I must have missed the discussion of my specific issue described below.
> 
> Wolffpack, when you say "manually set the KEEP flag", do you mean by pressing the blue button only? Or do you also mean having this set automatically in the SL parameters which is the default under option 4?


Yes, by the BLUE button only. Setting KEEP UNTIL I DELETE in a SL (I also assume the ARs work the same way) and setting a KAM other than ALL will still cause the episodes to be deleted when count exceeds the KAM. KUID <> KUID when KAM is set to other than ALL.



zortapa said:


> My specific issue is this: I have an AR with the KEEP flag automatically set in the AR definition. I also specify to keep at most 3 recordings. Even with the KEEP flag set, this AR deletes recordings when it starts to record a new program and there are already 3 recordings. (Given other commonalities between the AR and SL logic, I assume SLs work the same way.)
> 
> What I want is:
> - never to have any of these recordings deleted due to a full disk (AR parameter keep until=I delete)
> ...


There is no way to accomplish this on the R15 as there is on the Tivo. My example is with kids shows. On one of my Tivos I have 3 SPs setup for cartoons for my grand kids. I have them set to KUID and KAM=5. Once there are 5 episodes it stops recording any more until I delete some of the recordings. I use this method because these shows can be aired a dozen times a day and I don't want/need any fresh airings being recorded. Anyone that's experienced kids and DVRs know they like to watch the same show over and over and over......

This cannot be done on the R15 or HR20. I'm not sure if we've every gotten any official word from Earl if this is by design or a bug or whatever it is. But you cannot do that. Setting the show to KEEP using the BLUE button does truly keep it but removes that show from the count so the unit will continue recording new episodes.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

Thanks for the explanation. Since I have never had a Tivo, I did not understand the context of walters' "other alternative" until now.

Out of curiosity, and straying off topic, is there a way on Tivo pull out individual records from the "SL" so they would be kept indefinitely and outside the control logic so more recordings could be made? or would you have to increase KAM to 6 or higher?

And finally, yes, I do know the real solution -- burn the recordings that I want to keep to a DVD....... DONE!

Thanks again!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Are far as "disconnecting" a particular recording from the SP (Season Pass) on a Tivo it works the same way as on the R15. The Tivo version of the KEEP flag will pull it out of the counts for the SP. But again, on the Tivo if you specify KUID it truly does what you say. I guess that's why this had been so confusing in the past and why many Tivo users (me included) through it was a bug. Every other aspect of the KUID and KAM logic works the same between Tivos and the R15/HR20. It's only this one circumstance that the two operate differently.

DVD is a safe way to do it. But again, on the R15/HR20 is you flag a show as KEEP manually, it will keep it. It's only the SL with KUID and KAM <=5 that they will delete the shows automatically.


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## GreenCountry (Oct 10, 2007)

zortapa said:


> Actually, I believe that KEEP only takes it out of the SL episode count if you also specify KEEP UNTIL DISK FULL in the SL (i.e., you must manually specify KEEP if you want to keep it indefinitely).
> 
> One workaround that I had tried was to set up an AUOTRECORD (I assume that SL works the same) with KEEP UNTIL I DELETE and KEEP AT MOST 3. However, this did not seem to work unless I also specified KEEP ALL. Specifically, when I specified keeping a fixed number of episodes, the AR still deleted the oldest episode even though it was designated as a "keeper".
> 
> ...


Sorry to resurrect this topic, but tonight Option 2 didn't do the behavior described. So I've set the FX series "Damages" to record with "Keep All" and "Until I Delete" and until today, it held onto all the episodes (about 8 or 10, can't remember -- all of them in any event) even as my disk was nearing full. Other shows not set to KUID had the Exclamation Point icon next to them, but Damages looked fine. Then tonight I came home and all but two of the Damages episodes had disappeared. The two episodes that remained still had the "K" icon next to them.

Incidentally, I looked in my History, and couldn't find two episodes of Damages that I know were recorded (because I watched the recordings).

Anyone know if there's some explanation besides malfunction on my box's end?

Thanks!
GC


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

WOW what a hassle!!

It seems that no matter WHAT keep/save features the engineers put into the R15 software, someone is going to not like it (or compare it to a TIVO).

With all the kiddie channels on DirecTV, why not just plop your kids in front of the TV and put something LIVE on. From looking at the guide, those kiddie channels seem to run the same half-dozen shows over and over and over all day long!!


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

GreenCountry said:


> Sorry to resurrect this topic, but tonight Option 2 didn't do the behavior described. So I've set the FX series "Damages" to record with "Keep All" and "Until I Delete" and until today, it held onto all the episodes (about 8 or 10, can't remember -- all of them in any event) even as my disk was nearing full. Other shows not set to KUID had the Exclamation Point icon next to them, but Damages looked fine. Then tonight I came home and all but two of the Damages episodes had disappeared. The two episodes that remained still had the "K" icon next to them.
> 
> Incidentally, I looked in my History, and couldn't find two episodes of Damages that I know were recorded (because I watched the recordings).
> 
> ...


No, don't know what happened. Possible things to look at though, that might be related. How many series links do you have (limit of 50)? How many entries in to-do list (limit of 100)? And, now full was the disk (you said it was nearing full)?

In the past, the R15 did seem to lose some of it's stability/reliability when it came close to being full. Hopefully, that has been improved on substantially with software updates, but there may still be some issues there.

Is there any possibility someone else deleted shows?

Also, where is that show in the prioritizer with regard to others? Don't know if that would or should matter, but maybe something else to look at.

Carl


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