# 0x1214 - Native Video Display Option Removed



## lyradd (Mar 20, 2006)

0x1214, got this update Wednesday on my HR44-500. I don't notice any change as of yet, anyone else?


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## paranoia (Jun 13, 2014)

I haven't got a update since 5/7 which was and still is 0x11b2 .


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Yes I got it too. I have no idea whats new, if anything.


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## bjdotson (Feb 20, 2007)

I got 0xbbd yesterday on HR24-200
Last update before this was May 28th and was 0xbbb
Seems strange that after going a really long time without updates, I get two in less than two months.


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## jabber (Jul 18, 2019)

I've been getting the 0x1214 update on my HR54 every morning for more than a week but I kept downloading (using 02468 on startup) the previous 0x11b2 because of the software change I didn't like, and because the RedH firmware watcher website didn't acknowledge the 0x1214 version until this morning. The 0x1214 update removes the Native On/Off option and upscales every channel to 1080i (at least in my case). I hate not being able to have the native signal processed by my TV. I hate the DirecTV scaler, my LG OLED TV and my Sony TV's did a great job of scaling. My 720 and 480 channels look terrible with DirecTV's scaler changing them to 1080i. Not a fan of this update or anything AT&T gets its hands on. They are slowly ruining my 11 year relationship with DirecTV.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Jeff Roe said:


> I've been getting the 0x1214 update on my HR54 every morning for more than a week but I kept downloading (using 02468 on startup) the previous 0x11b2 because of the software change I didn't like, and because the RedH firmware watcher website didn't acknowledge the 0x1214 version until this morning. The 0x1214 update removes the Native On/Off option and upscales every channel to 1080i (at least in my case). I hate not being able to have the native signal processed by my TV. I hate the DirecTV scaler, my LG OLED TV and my Sony TV's did a great job of scaling. My 720 and 480 channels look terrible with DirecTV's scaler changing them to 1080i. Not a fan of this update or anything AT&T gets its hands on. They are slowly ruining my 11 year relationship with DirecTV.


Can you take a picture of the Resolutions Screen and the one where you can't choose Native On or Off ?
Welcome to the Forum.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

Holly crap! If Native On is gone I am gone from directv! I was the one who wrote up the suggestions (Please write to Directv about native 4x3 problem.) and sent them to directv engineering and president at the time. I use an outboard VP50 video processor which works magic on everything from directv receivers. I now us an HR54. I have HBO, Showtime and amazon prime on AppleTV which delivers excellent video and was waiting for the new AppleTV+ Service to finally move off of directv but this will be the true nail in the coffin.

Of course this would also affect anyone without a video processor but with a TV with a better scaler than directv, which is pretty much the majority of Sony and Samsung TVs in the last 3-4 years and most good 4K TVs.


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## jabber (Jul 18, 2019)

Here is a screenshot of the new Settings>Display>Video screen


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Jeff Roe said:


> Here is a screenshot of the new Settings>Display>Video screen
> View attachment 30009


Try using the Red button on the 54 and Reset it and see if the option comes back.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Jeff Roe said:


> Here is a screenshot of the new Settings>Display>Video screen
> View attachment 30009


Did the option maybe get moved to another sub menu like Preferences ?


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## jabber (Jul 18, 2019)

I've resets my HR54 numerous times. I've turned off HDMI (solid signal suggestion), no change. I've unplugged my C61K because it hasn't had the current firmware for the 3 months I've had the HR54 and C61K and that made no difference (I though the firmware push to the C61K might be causing a problem). I've turned of all resolutions except 720 or 480, no change. When I called AT&T/DirecTV tech support their answer after 45 minutes was to send me a new HR54. They had no idea what I meant with my question about firmware versions and they had no interest in escalating my call to someone who understood what I was asking about.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Jeff Roe said:


> I've resets my HR54 numerous times. I've turned off HDMI (solid signal suggestion), no change. I've unplugged my C61K because it hasn't had the current firmware for the 3 months I've had the HR54 and C61K and that made no difference (I though the firmware push to the C61K might be causing a problem). I've turned of all resolutions except 720 or 480, no change. When I called AT&T/DirecTV tech support their answer after 45 minutes was to send me a new HR54. They had no idea what I meant with my question about firmware versions and they had no interest in escalating my call to someone who understood what I was asking about.


I would turn on the 720p and the 1080i and if you do Pay per View 1080p.
I would definitely stop forcing the Firmware. Let it get it when it wants / needs it .


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## jabber (Jul 18, 2019)

I've scoured the options, Accessibility, Whole Home, Genie settings. Originally my C61K-700 was the first box to remove Native On/Off, but I assumed it needed to update its current firmware updated and that would solve that problem. To date it still shows 0x11fe and that hasn't showed up on RedH ever for any box. I only use the C61K for 4k shows and they only have maybe one or two events per week, sometimes less so it is less of an issue since 4k works fine, I never used the C61K for anything else. (Yes I know they have their demo 4k channel 104 but it just repeats demo shows, you know their repeated demo shows have no appeal and thus no commercials, can't sell commercial if no one is watching).


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## jabber (Jul 18, 2019)

I have turned back on all the resolutions and video options my tv supports and I do wait for firmware updates when they come. Over the last 2 weeks I have woke every morning to every channel on my tv stuck on 480p and that's when I discovered a new firmware version with the Native option removed. Then I checked the RedH site and found 0x1214 nowhere, that's why I did a forced download, I assumed I was having an error. I at least needed to fix the 480p problem every day and I did that by restoring my box to its current version. I have never been on CE or whatever the beta program is. I haven't had a DirecTV tech show up for years until I wanted to check out the Masters this year in 4K, thats when I got a dish upgrade the HR54 and C61K, perhaps he put me on it somehow. No wonder 4k is free, no content. But it will be fantastic for live sports when providers start providing them all in 4k. 10 years away probably, no easy OTA delivery scheme yet.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

jabber said:


> I have turned back on all the resolutions and video options my tv supports and I do wait for firmware updates when they come. Over the last 2 weeks I have woke every morning to every channel on my tv stuck on 480p and that's when I discovered a new firmware version with the Native option removed. Then I checked the RedH site and found 0x1214 nowhere, that's why I did a forced download, I assumed I was having an error. I at least needed to fix the 480p problem every day and I did that by restoring my box to its current version. I have never been on CE or whatever the beta program is. I haven't had a DirecTV tech show up for years until I wanted to check out the Masters this year in 4K, thats when I got a dish upgrade the HR54 and C61K, perhaps he put me on it somehow. No wonder 4k is free, no content. But it will be fantastic for live sports when providers start providing them all in 4k. 10 years away probably, no easy OTA delivery scheme yet.


Try this for the stuck in 480p problem:
Press and Hold the Exit button until a message comes to the screen.
It should say something about the mode. Do it again and it goes back to where it was when you pressed it the first time.
It should say HD mode.


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## jabber (Jul 18, 2019)

Correct. I've used it to get 4k back on my C61K, couldn't get it back in any other way. It doesn't restore the Native On/Off feature though, it just toggles between 480p and 1080i. I would also get a prompt to let the receiver (the HR54 in my case) find the best resolution the TV supports and change it to that, so I didn't need to force a firmware download, I did that to restore the Native On/Off feature. Now the current version is actually 0x1214 and not 0x11b2 (which still had the Native On/Off feature) so I no longer have a choice (that current version changed last night). I don't know if everyone realized, but before this firmware change whatever channel you were on when you changed the Native option to Off would be the resolution every channel would be changed to. If you were on a 720p or 480i channel when you went into the Settings and changed Native to Off, every channel you went to would be 720p or 480i accordingly. Presumably DirecTV is now saying we will force you to use Native Off and we will now select the highest resolution you have checked on the Resolution Settings screen which would likely be 1080i for broadcast channels. We can no longer get to have our TVs with their superior scalers do the scaling, DirecTV is forcing the scaling on their receivers and DVRs. That's my complaint. I'm sure it makes it easier for DirecTV to code menu screens and probably have less complaints about how long it takes to change channels but I liked the superior picture, it seems very noticeable to me.


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## PeteSL (May 5, 2007)

jabber said:


> I've been getting the 0x1214 update on my HR54 every morning for more than a week but I kept downloading (using 02468 on startup) the previous 0x11b2 because of the software change I didn't like, and because the RedH firmware watcher website didn't acknowledge the 0x1214 version until this morning. The 0x1214 update removes the Native On/Off option and upscales every channel to 1080i (at least in my case). I hate not being able to have the native signal processed by my TV. I hate the DirecTV scaler, my LG OLED TV and my Sony TV's did a great job of scaling. My 720 and 480 channels look terrible with DirecTV's scaler changing them to 1080i. Not a fan of this update or anything AT&T gets its hands on. They are slowly ruining my 11 year relationship with DirecTV.


 I had a tech out yesterday who did the same thing and Native Mode was back so, yes, this is a "new feature" of 0x1214. Worse yet, when you look at the detailed info, it shows that the update not only removes the option but turns native mode off. I am on the phone with ATT DirecTV support now complaining about the "new feature".


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

jabber said:


> Correct. I've used it to get 4k back on my C61K, couldn't get it back in any other way. It doesn't restore the Native On/Off feature though, it just toggles between 480p and 1080i. I would also get a prompt to let the receiver (the HR54 in my case) find the best resolution the TV supports and change it to that, so I didn't need to force a firmware download, I did that to restore the Native On/Off feature. Now the current version is actually 0x1214 and not 0x11b2 (which still had the Native On/Off feature) so I no longer have a choice (that current version changed last night). I don't know if everyone realized, but before this firmware change whatever channel you were on when you changed the Native option to Off would be the resolution every channel would be changed to. If you were on a 720p or 480i channel when you went into the Settings and changed Native to Off, every channel you went to would be 720p or 480i accordingly. Presumably DirecTV is now saying we will force you to use Native Off and we will now select the highest resolution you have checked on the Resolution Settings screen which would likely be 1080i for broadcast channels. We can no longer get to have our TVs with their superior scalers do the scaling, DirecTV is forcing the scaling on their receivers and DVRs. That's my complaint. I'm sure it makes it easier for DirecTV to code menu screens and probably have less complaints about how long it takes to change channels but I liked the superior picture, it seems very noticeable to me.


I like the Native ON also on my HR24.
Mine and everyone else's TV scales any signal it get to it's Native format which mine and your case is 4k.
My son has a 1080p TV and he likes the Native OFF and set to 1080i in resolutions.


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## sangs (Apr 2, 2008)

Native is gone from my HR54-700 too. I'm assuming this was done because of how much complaining happens about slow channel changing, black screens and HDMI handshakes. Because I assume the great majority of DirecTV users don't understand why any of that happens. I always turn Native OFF, so its removal won't bother me, but I understand why it may honk off those that used it. Might also have something to do with them getting rid of SD channels soon.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

I'm old fashioned, if it's not broke, don't fix it. Add this to the long list of fixes since AT&T bought DIRECTV.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

While I would prefer to be able to set output to Native, I will reserve judgement WRT whether I can see a difference when using the HR54 scaler. Unfortunately, it will be difficult to make a determination without being able to compare by switching Native on and off. I find it discouraging that we are not being given the choice anymore—I don’t see the logic in removing the option.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

jabber said:


> Here is a screenshot of the new Settings>Display>Video screen
> View attachment 30009


Question:
Can you see the resolution in the Info bar like you used to and if Yes, can you change it to 720p or 480i ?


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

jimmie57 said:


> Question:
> Can you see the resolution in the Info bar like you used to and if Yes, can you change it to 720p or 480i ?


Yes, but why would you want to manually set the resolution? For example, if you tune to Fox, you can set the resolution to 720p. But if you then tune to CBS, the resolution stays at 720p, which is the incorrect resolution for CBS. I think it would be a nightmare to try and manually set the resolution for every network you watch. Besides, the overwhelming majority of the networks are 1080i, which IIUC is passed on to the display without any processing in the DVR.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, I am really confused regarding what is happening with output resolutions. When I display the FOX channel from my HR54, my TV info shows a 1080i signal, which means the HR54 is up-scaling the signal. When I display FOX from my C61K, the TV info shows a 720p, which means the signal is NOT being up-scaled. WTF is going on here?

Edit: The option to output Native is still present on the C61K, which explains the difference.  I thought the C61K firmware was kept in sync with what is installed on the HR54? I guess not.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

JerryMeeker said:


> Yes, but why would you want to manually set the resolution? For example, if you tune to Fox, you can set the resolution to 720p. But if you then tune to CBS, the resolution stays at 720p, which is the incorrect resolution for CBS. I think it would be a nightmare to try and manually set the resolution for every network you watch. Besides, the overwhelming majority of the networks are 1080i, which IIUC is passed on to the display without any processing in the DVR.


It still does allow you to change it. If you perhaps want to watch a long / fast moving program on say ESPN you can choose it. I really can not tell any difference in 720p and the 1080i now with my 4k TV. It does a super job upconverting all signals to 4k.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

jabber said:


> Here is a screenshot of the new Settings>Display>Video screen
> View attachment 30009


This is tricky but
Original Format is the Format of your TV. 16:9
Pillar Box is the one that changes the shape of the picture on your screen between 4:3 and 16:9. Allows SD programming to look like it was filmed in.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

jimmie57 said:


> It still does allow you to change it. If you perhaps want to watch a long / fast moving program on say ESPN you can choose it. I really can not tell any difference in 720p and the 1080i now with my 4k TV. It does a super job upconverting all signals to 4k.


We really don't know what is happening now. If Native has been removed, all signals are being up-converted to 1080i. Manually selecting 720p may not be by-passing the up-conversion, it may be down-converting the signal from 1080i, in which the signal is being converted twice. If that is what is happening, then signal quality would be even worse.

My C61K and the HR54 are in the same room, both connected to the same TV. I typically watch recorded programs directly from the HR54. I am considering switching all my viewing to the C61K, for at least as long as the Native mode is still available. The down-side is that commands like slip forward are not quite as responsive when using the C61K. I am really irritated that the new HR54 software is forcing me to choose between two less than desirable options.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

jabber said:


> Here is a screenshot of the new Settings>Display>Video screen
> View attachment 30009


What happens if you scroll over to the settings? On my HS17 and C61K it also is missing when the cursor is on Video but as soon as I scroll right Native shows back up in the actual settings.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

RAD said:


> What happens if you scroll over to the settings? On my HS17 and C61K it also is missing when the cursor is on Video but as soon as I scroll right Native shows back up in the actual settings.


You are correct, on the C61K, when you scroll right, the Native option appears. Unfortunately, it does not work the same on the HR54 with the new software. Native is not displayed, and is nowhere to be found elsewhere.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

I know some here don't care about or use native ON. For us, removing ON is a disaster since the picture goes from excellent with ON to garbage with OFF. My processor upscales everything to 1080p, but also.... handles fixing aspect ratio to match every pixel of the TV beautifully so there is never anything to do, it's all automatic. But the worse thing is with native OFF our picture is garbage. If ATT removed this to simplify, they shot themselves in the foot. Everyone like me will run from directv. Just read my justification letter from 2007: Please write to Directv about native 4x3 problem.

Native OFF Is the default so why it was removed is a mystery. Could be they way to chase people away from satellite.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

mgavs said:


> But the worse thing is with native ON our picture is garbage.


Not understanding. Native ON means the DVR is performing no processing, and is usually preferred by those of us who want the best picture quality.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

Sorry, I am so upset I typed it wrong. I fixed the post. You are absolutely right, ON is for best picture if your tv does processing better than the DVR, or you have a video proccessor.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

To be clear, if a broadcast is 1080i, it seems to me that the display is getting a 1080i signal, so it doesn’t seem that there would be any picture quality degradation due to DVR up-scaling. If the broadcast is 720p, then clearly the DVR will up-scale to 1080i, and there could be PQ degradation. As I said earlier, most of the content I watch is 1080i, so not being able to output in Native would have marginal impact. Am I wrong?


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

My processor does _much_ more than simple scaling, that's why they are so expensive. Even if the processor outputs unscaled 480, 720, 1080 to the TV, the picture is still greatly improved. There's a LOT MORE degradation from the DVR Native OFF than simple rescaling. This affects many more people than years ago because so many TVs, especially 4K do much better _processing_ _and_ scaling than the DVR. This change is a disaster for many many people and I think _stuff_ will hit the fan once the software is sent to everyone.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, my question was a simple one—if the source is 1080i, isn’t the DVR sending an unaltered signal to your fancy processor? Why would it be different from Native mode? Do you have facts and data to support what you are saying?

I have been watching 1080i broadcast all day, and I don’t see an obvious PQ degradation.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There is no such thing as an unaltered signal. Every channel goes through processing and compression before being delivered to the receiver for decompression. Native simply tells the receiver to produce an output with the same frame size and rate as the "original" signal received by DIRECTV. The primary purpose of the satellite receiver is to receive, store (if a DVR) and reproduce each channel. A professional level processor focused on upscaling is likely to to a better job, but it still has to work with the signal output by the receiver. "Native" removes one step where the signal could be made worse (especially if the target monitor is not one of the output formats supported by DIRECTV).


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## jabber (Jul 18, 2019)

For me DirecTV was more than Sunday Ticket and Center Ice, it was the place for techies to thrive. With superior uncompressed signals and superior equipment like DVRs, receivers, and reverse band technology and superior software it made everything we were watching more satisfying. And noticeable to me. Removing some of that capability really puts a ding in what I loved about DirecTV, that's what sucks (thanks AT&T). BTW, my C61K won't hold the Native On when I select it, once I switch screens and go back it's back to Native Off. It will save other changes on that screen like HDMI control, etc. but not Native On. That's why I also use the HR54 for most viewing and only use the C61K for watching 4k, both on the same TV. Of course my C61K has a weird 0x11fe firmware version found nowhere on the RedH website, so I don't know if that's the problem.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

No trying to convince anyone who has never had the pleasure of experiencing a video processor in action. Just bummed my video quality is crud with native OFF and not being able to change it back to ON. Please remember if you don't see what I see... well... you probably don't have the same TV and signal path. Very simple.

We should all want the options needed to provide _any_ combination of equipment the best picture. BTW, if you want to learn more about video processors... Lumagen


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mgavs said:


> ... my video quality is crud with native ON and not being able to change it back to OFF.


I believe you're still having problems with ON vs OFF. Native OFF is the (apparent) new norm that will ruin your picture (unless the channel happens to be in the output resolution chosen). Native ON passes a different signal depending on the source pixel resolution, allowing your processor to do the work of modifying 720p or 1080i to your TV's resolution.

I have my receiver set to 1080i (my TV reports it as 1080i/60) feeding a 4K TV with no processor in between. That prevents a signal from being downgraded from 1080i to 720p before the set upgrades it to 4K ... but does mess with the frame rate (720p changed to 1080i losing frames). I can see where matching the resolution and frame rate of the broadcaster as closely as possible would be a benefit.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

Sorry James, I typed it backwards again, I fixed the post. I certainly don’t have any confusion about this as I am the one in 2007 who got them to add Native, then add a 4x3 feature, see the link above to my letters.

I want my Native ON back! And again, the processor does more than scaling, see the link I provided. Realistically, ATT will not bring it back so now that the video will be back to 2008 low quality for me, Directv will be gone by year end. Too bad, we were signed up with them and USSB the first month they started, been a long ride, I knew ATT would muck it up eventually.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Do we know why DTV has dropped the Native mode option? I believe someone hypothesized that the reason might be to avoid calls to customer support regarding slow response when switching channels, but could this really be the reason? Surely disenfranchising those of us who want the best picture quality should be reason enough to not drop the Native mode option.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> Do we know why DTV has dropped the Native mode option? I believe someone hypothesized that the reason might be to avoid calls to customer support regarding slow response when switching channels, but could this really be the reason? Surely disenfranchising those of us who want the best picture quality should be reason enough to not drop the Native mode option.


If i had to guess.. probably based on the reasons you say above and I am not aware of any of Consumer Grade DVR that offers a Native Mode... So why go through the possible hassles when you are the only one offering it. It am sure there is service tech data indicating that X amount of calls are related to this and we can save X dollars just by getting rid of it and not dispatching techs anymore

On a side note, this only effects the actual HR44/54 Native Mode Still works on any clients attached to the main genie. This also goes for the HS17 setup


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## mrknowitall526 (Nov 19, 2014)

My HR44 does not have 1214 yet. Still has Native mode, but I've had that turned off for a long time for the reasons posted. I hate how long it takes to change channels. I tried with it on and off and I couldn't notice a difference going from 720p to 1080 on ABC. I think I had a TV once that would sometimes get "stuck" switching modes. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

mrknowitall526 said:


> My HR44 does not have 1214 yet. Still has Native mode, but I've had that turned off for a long time for the reasons posted. I hate how long it takes to change channels. I tried with it on and off and I couldn't notice a difference going from 720p to 1080 on ABC. I think I had a TV once that would sometimes get "stuck" switching modes.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Of course there is a trade-off, but for some of us who value getting the best picture quality out of our expensive, calibrated displays and video processors, the added delay when switching channels is justified. I think the point is that having the option of turning Native mode off or on is better than completely removing the option. Surely you support having a choice, even though you may not choose to use Native mode, correct?


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

compnurd said:


> On a side note, this only effects the actual HR44/54 Native Mode Still works on any clients attached to the main genie. This also goes for the HS17 setup


True, but how long will the clients continue to support Native mode? I suspect that the next software update for the C61K will remove Native mode, making it consistent with the server software. Enjoy it what it lasts.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> True, but how long will the clients continue to support Native mode? I suspect that the next software update for the C61K will remove Native mode, making it consistent with the server software. Enjoy it what it lasts.


The next software doesn't. And there is also 6 other clients versions that still support it The C61k is only one of 7 client models


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## GekkoDBS (Dec 5, 2015)

JerryMeeker said:


> Do we know why DTV has dropped the Native mode option? I believe someone hypothesized that the reason might be to avoid calls to customer support regarding slow response when switching channels, but could this really be the reason? Surely disenfranchising those of us who want the best picture quality should be reason enough to not drop the Native mode option.


I posted the question to a Directv employee who has helped me with Directv issues in the past: Native On/Off Video Display Option Removed From Latest 0x1214 HR44/54 Update, Is This Permanent?


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

GordonGekko said:


> I posted the question to a Directv employee who has helped me with Directv issues in the past: Native On/Off Video Display Option Removed From Latest 0x1214 HR44/54 Update, Is This Permanent?


Kindly let us know if you get a response-I am sure many of us are interested.

On a side note, I have been paying very close attention to the picture quality of recorded content (all 1080i) over the last several days. I have been alternating between viewing the same content on the HR54, which no longer has the Native option, and the C61K, which still has the Native option. TBH, I am not seeing a difference in PQ. So, although in principle I still would like the Native option returned, I probably can live without it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Since you are recording the satellite signal (not the output) one should be able to do a decent comparison by setting the receiver output to 1080i ... watching for a few minutes then setting the receiver output to 720p and watching the same minutes of content. All "native" does is select 1080i or 720p automatically based on the channel chosen.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

James Long said:


> Since you are recording the satellite signal (not the output) one should be able to do a decent comparison by setting the receiver output to 1080i ... watching for a few minutes then setting the receiver output to 720p and watching the same minutes of content. All "native" does is select 1080i or 720p automatically based on the channel chosen.


Sorry, James, I don't know what this would prove.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JerryMeeker said:


> Sorry, James, I don't know what this would prove.


One could see what each channel looked like in either format. While "native" picks the format closest to the one the channel was received in (720p or 1080i) one can choose the output that looks best. "Native" assumes that a 720p channel will look better if output by the receiver as 720p and a 1080i channel will look better if output by the receiver as 1080i. Manually selecting the output format allows the customer to choose for themselves. Including those with separate processing equipment.

It doesn't matter if you have native on or off, the receiver is recording the signal received from the satellite in the same format. The output format is based on how the receiver is set at the time of playback.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

James Long said:


> It doesn't matter if you have native on or off, the receiver is recording the signal received from the satellite in the same format. The output format is based on how the receiver is set at the time of playback.


Agreed. Another question for you: If the recording is 1080i, and the recording is played back as 1080i with the current SW version (which no longer has Native mode), will the result be any different than playing back with the previous SW version with Native turned on? IOW, is the 1080i signal being passed to the display in an unaltered state? If yes, then for 1080i content there would be no difference in output quality under the new SW. Only 720p, which will now be up-scaled to 1080i, might suffer from picture quality degradation. And, of course, 480P, but who watches 480p content? Do I have this correct?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JerryMeeker said:


> Agreed. Another question for you: If the recording is 1080i, and the recording is played back as 1080i with the current SW version (which no longer has Native mode), will the result be any different than playing back with the previous SW version with Native turned on?


Unless they made other changes, there should be no difference. Look at "native" as "auto-select". If you are watching content from a 1080i channel, native outputs 1080i. If you are watching content from a 720p channel native outputs 720p.



JerryMeeker said:


> IOW, is the 1080i signal being passed to the display in an unaltered state? If yes, then for 1080i content there would be no difference in output quality under the new SW. Only 720p, which will now be up-scaled to 1080i, might suffer from picture quality degradation. And, of course, 480P, but who watches 480p content? Do I have this correct?


Can the new software be set to output 720p? If so, one could manually set their receiver to 720p when they wanted the higher frame rate of 720p.

That has been the trade off between 1080i and 720p for years ... 1080i gives you more pixels on the screen but 720p changes those pixels more often. 1080i is 62 million pixels per second. 720p is just over 55 million pixels per second (not counting for compression of each signal). If you're watching action that changes 60 fps 720p is likely a better format ... if the content action can be captured in 30 fps then 1080i will give you more pixels per frame. 480p does well with content not produced in a higher format.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

For anyone who thinks there is no difference.... I wish you could see the DVR set Native on _and_ off through my processor. Huge difference, no brainer, no argument. A lot of it has to do with dropped frames during scaling. My processor and many TVs today do a much better job at scaling. Native off is like putting the picture through the wash _for us,_ softer and not as rich colors in some cases. With native on even the SD channels look HD, everyone is shocked when we show SD. So if you don't see a difference lucky you, but for us and others that see a difference it shocks me that even ATT would do something this stupid. But then again it is ATT, probably want to push people off satellite. We were very happy when we dumped ATT cell, and this give us a good reason to dump them again as soon as we see what AppleTV+ offers.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

James Long said:


> Can the new software be set to output 720p? If so, one could manually set their receiver to 720p when they wanted the higher frame rate of 720p.


The new software version will up-scale 720p and 480p to 1080i. That is the issue for the purists-the DVR up-scaler will not do as good a job as a high-quality display or outboard processor. But my point is that 1080i recordings will be Output by the DVR as 1080i, with no processing. So the purists should have no issue with the new software WRT 1080i content. Fortunately, with the exception of Fox and ESPN, most broadcasts are 1080i.

There is an option to change the output resolution to 720p, for example (by pressing the Info key, scrolling to the right to the Audio/Video selection, and manually toggling through several output options). However, this approach is far too cumbersome for most viewers. Maybe a die-hard sports fan might find this approach worthwhile. Regardless, much more effort than the old option of setting output to Native. Sigh...


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

mgavs said:


> For anyone who thinks there is no difference.... I wish you could see the DVR on and off through my processor. Huge difference, no brained, no argument. A lot of it has to do with dropped frames during scaling. My processor and many TVs today do a much better job at scaling. native off is like Putting the picture through the wash for us,softer and not as rich colors in some cases. With native on even the SD channels look HD, everyone is shocked when we show SD. So if you don't see a difference lucky you, for us and others that see a difference it shocks me that even ATT would do something this stupid. But then again it is ATT, probably want to push people off satellite. We were very happy when we dumped ATT cell, and this give us a good reason to dump them again as soon as we see what AppleTV+ offers.


But 1080i content is NOT being scaled. How can you see a difference if the DVR is not scaling? I'm confused.

If you can convince me there is a difference with 1080i content, then I can simply use my C61K to output recorded content. The C61K still has the Native mode option.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'd like to see native live on. I'm not sure what benefit there is for DIRECTV to turn it off. Maybe too many people complained of a "glitch while changing channels"?


BTW: Here is a list of 720p HD channels (mostly ABC and Fox ownership)
- Non-Sports
ABC (broadcast)
Audience
Crime & Investigation Network
Daystar
Disney XD
Disney Junior
Disney Channel
Fox (broadcast)
Fox Business Network
Fox News Channel
Freeform
FX
FXM
FXX
FYI
Ion
MyNetworkTV
Nat Geo Wild
National Geographic Channel
Reelz

- Sports
AT&T SportsNet
beIN Sports
beIN Sports en Español
Big Ten Network
ESPN
ESPN2
ESPNews
ESPNU
ESPN Deportes
ESPN Goal Line/Buzz Beater/Bases Loaded
Fox Deportes
Fox Sports 1
Fox Sports 2
Fox Soccer Plus
Fox Sports Networks (All Networks)
MLB Network
MLB StrikeZone
Root Sports
SEC Network


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## njfoses (Sep 15, 2007)

0x11fe removes native mode on the C61K fyi. I do not agree with the decision either.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

James Long said:


> I'd like to see native live on. I'm not sure what benefit there is for DIRECTV to turn it off. Maybe too many people complained of a "glitch while changing channels"?


Someone speculated on the other site that D* did it to prevent the 4K box from unchecking on the 4K clients.

I'm surprised this isn't being discussed more. I guess the channel disputes are taking priority.

Maybe we should change the title of the thread to include Native on/off mode gone now?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

njfoses said:


> 0x11fe removes native mode on the C61K fyi. I do not agree with the decision either.


Odd I still have it on FE


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Someone speculated on the other site that D* did it to prevent the 4K box from unchecking on the 4K clients.
> 
> I'm surprised this isn't being discussed more. I guess the channel disputes are taking priority.
> 
> Maybe we should change the title of the thread to include Native on/off mode gone now?


I agree, this is a much bigger deal than the channel disputes which are not a long-term problem.

Getting rid of native is a game changer for those of us who picked DTV for the highest PQ we could get.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> I agree, this is a much bigger deal than the channel disputes which are not a long-term problem.
> 
> Getting rid of native is a game changer for those of us who picked DTV for the highest PQ we could get.


Based on what James said, you are still getting the highest PQ


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

Since I just heard about this today I went to check on all my receivers to see what was going on.

On my three C61K 4K clients the native option is now gone in the menu. However, as I change channels with different resolutions the native behavior continues to exist--- as I switch back and forth between 720p and 1080i channels the 720p channels remain in 720p and the 1080i channels remain in 1080i. None of the 720p channels get upconverted to 1080i. The 4K Channel 104 switches to 2160p as always. I have all 4 resolutions checked in the menu. The software is Ox113d.

On my HR-54 it got the Ox1214 software overnight and the native option is gone. However, it does not behave like the C61-K clients. All the channels showed up in 720p, none in 1080i. They were all being downconverted to 720p, not upconverted to 1080i. So I started playing around with the settings to try to fix this. I had to uncheck 720p and 1080i, leave only 1080p, and then check 1080i again in order to get all the channels in 1080i. If I checked the 720p box then all the channels would stay at 720p, the worst possible outcome. 

So bottom line, the HR-54 will only switch around with one resolution at a time while the C61-K's can switch around with multiple resolutions at a time, even though the native option is not available. Can anyone make any sense of what DTV is doing here ?


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> Since I just heard about this today I went to check on all my receivers to see what was going on.
> 
> On my three C61K 4K clients the native option is now gone in the menu. However, as I change channels with different resolutions the native behavior continues to exist--- as I switch back and forth between 720p and 1080i channels the 720p channels remain in 720p and the 1080i channels remain in 1080i. None of the 720p channels get upconverted to 1080i. The 4K Channel 104 switches to 2160p as always. I have all 4 resolutions checked in the menu. The software is Ox113d.
> 
> ...


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

BigRedFan said:


> Since I just heard about this today I went to check on all my receivers to see what was going on.
> 
> On my three C61K 4K clients the native option is now gone in the menu. However, as I change channels with different resolutions the native behavior continues to exist--- as I switch back and forth between 720p and 1080i channels the 720p channels remain in 720p and the 1080i channels remain in 1080i. None of the 720p channels get upconverted to 1080i. The 4K Channel 104 switches to 2160p as always. I have all 4 resolutions checked in the menu. The software is Ox113d.
> 
> ...


My C61K-700 is still on 0x113d. Using your DIRECTV remote press and hold SELECT. This will bring up the hidden menu. Select Client Info. There you will see the current info about your C61K-700. You'll see it still shows if Native is On or Off.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> Since I just heard about this today I went to check on all my receivers to see what was going on.
> 
> On my three C61K 4K clients the native option is now gone in the menu. However, as I change channels with different resolutions the native behavior continues to exist--- as I switch back and forth between 720p and 1080i channels the 720p channels remain in 720p and the 1080i channels remain in 1080i. None of the 720p channels get upconverted to 1080i. The 4K Channel 104 switches to 2160p as always. I have all 4 resolutions checked in the menu. The software is Ox113d.
> 
> ...


Did you actually click over into the display settings? native will appear when you click over there


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> My C61K-700 is still on 0x113d. Using your DIRECTV remote press and hold SELECT. This will bring up the hidden menu. Select Client Info. There you will see the current info about your C61K-700. You'll see it still shows if Native is On or Off.


I am still on 0x113d as well. Pressing and holding Select on my DirecTV Remote (configured for RF) does NOT bring up a hidden menu. Why would this work for you and not for me?

However, not to worry, I can easily confirm Native is available and selected by opening the Menu, going to Display Settings/Video, and scrolling to the right.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

JerryMeeker said:


> Why would this work for you and not for me?


What remote are you using? How long did you press and hold SELECT? It takes 6-8 seconds while pressing and holding SELECT for the hidden menu to appear.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> What remote are you using? How long did you press and hold SELECT? It takes 6-8 seconds while pressing and holding SELECT for the hidden menu to appear.


Sorry, I was not holding the key down long enough. You are correct-it takes 10 seconds. Not sure that this method is any faster than going through the Menu, but it's nice to know this approach is available.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

So, do we expect that the legacy DVR’s, like my HR24, will eventually get an update that removes The Native Mode option? If my C61K gets an update to remove the option, I am considering hooking up a spare HR24 in my primary equipment rack so that I can continue watching Genie recordings through a DVR that retains Native mode. This won’t work, and isn’t worth the effort (and added equipment fee) if a future FW update neuters the HR24 video as well.

Thoughts?


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

JerryMeeker said:


> Thoughts?


Time will tell. As I have posted elsewhere "If it's not broke, don't fix it". Since buying DIRECTV AT&T has "fixed" a lot of things and have repeatedly demonstrated they excel at turning gold into lead.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> Time will tell. As I have posted elsewhere "If it's not broke, don't fix it". Since buying DIRECTV AT&T has "fixed" a lot of things and have repeatedly demonstrated they excel at turning gold into lead.


Agreed. For the time being, I will continue using the Native mode on the C61K. But as you say, we can probably expect DTV to neuter that box as well.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

I just spent about 20min on a call to DTV Support. I was lucky enough to get a knowledgeable, Native-English customer service rep that was patient enough to listen and understand my reasons for being unhappy with the removal of Native mode. I impressed upon her that my unhappiness was serious enough that I might drop the service. She acknowledged my reason for being unhappy and will forward my concerns to the engineering team. While I may be naive to think this will make any difference, if more of us were to call and complain, it actually could do some good. Pick up that phone!


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

compnurd said:


> Did you actually click over into the display settings? native will appear when you click over there


Yes, of course I did. The display settings for the client no longer show the option to turn native on or off. They start off with the screen format now, the top line for native is gone.

UPDATE: found it, it's hidden away now. See my post below. Thanks !


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

MysteryMan said:


> My C61K-700 is still on 0x113d. Using your DIRECTV remote press and hold SELECT. This will bring up the hidden menu. Select Client Info. There you will see the current info about your C61K-700. You'll see it still shows if Native is On or Off.


OK, thanks, I found that hidden menu and it says native is on.

UPDATE: OK, I finally found the native option available if you scroll to the right after clicking on Display settings/ Video. It used to be visible from the left menu and now it is not there. They are really hiding it now.

But this is only available with the clients, not with the HR-54.


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## njfoses (Sep 15, 2007)

compnurd said:


> Odd I still have it on FE


Where are you seeing it?


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## njfoses (Sep 15, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> OK, thanks, I found that hidden menu and it says native is on.
> 
> UPDATE: OK, I finally found the native option available if you scroll to the right after clicking on Display settings/ Video. It used to be visible from the left menu and now it is not there. They are really hiding it now.
> 
> But this is only available with the clients, not with the HR-54.


You are pressing right on the keypad while at the video settings screen? This does nothing for me on FE.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

njfoses said:


> You are pressing right on the keypad while at the video settings screen? This does nothing for me on FE.


Yes, but it only works on the C61-K, not on the HR-54. When you press on "Menu/ Display/ Video" you'll see the native line pop up on the right. It used to be visible from the left menu, but not anymore.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

njfoses said:


> You are pressing right on the keypad while at the video settings screen? This does nothing for me on FE.


Why don't you try the "Press and hold the Select key for 10 seconds" to access the special menu, select "Client Info", and then scroll down past TV Resolution and HDMI Control and you should see "Native On or Off".


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> Why don't you try the "Press and hold the Select key for 10 seconds" to access the special menu, select "Client Info", and then scroll down past TV Resolution and HDMI Control and you should see "Native On or Off".


Just click display then click video then poof native option


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

Agreeing with Rat Patrol, can we get the moderator to rename this thread something like "Native Video Display Option Being Removed in 0x1214" ? It's a pretty big (and bad) change which DTV has made. 

Most DTV users here won't know this has happened from the current thread title. I certainly didn't until I read about it at AVS Forum and then came looking for it here.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

compnurd said:


> Just click display then click video then poof native option


If you read his post, he is obviously having difficulty finding the option.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

BigRedFan said:


> Agreeing with Rat Patrol, can we get the moderator to rename this thread something like "Native Video Display Option Being Removed in 0x1214" ? It's a pretty big (and bad) change which DTV has made.
> 
> Most DTV users here won't know this has happened from the current thread title. I certainly didn't until I read about it at AVS Forum and then came looking for it here.


I just checked, I am unable to rename the thread. Perhaps a super moderator or admin can do so.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I assume 0x1214 is a national release? If so the name change makes more sense.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

James Long said:


> I assume 0x1214 is a national release? If so the name change makes more sense.


Thank you for renaming it ! As people discover the change hitting their receivers at least they come here and see what is going on and hear how to deal with the hidden menus.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> Thank you for renaming it ! As people discover the change hitting their receivers at least they come here and see what is going on and hear how to deal with the hidden menus.


The menu isn't really hidden. It has been functioning like that for the last 2 NR


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## njfoses (Sep 15, 2007)

I can confirm I no longer have the option on my C61K with 0x11fe or on my HR54 with 0x1214. Long pressing select shows native off.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

njfoses said:


> I can confirm I no longer have the option on my C61K with 0x11fe or on my HR54 with 0x1214. Long pressing select shows native off.


So that means that it has been removed from the C61K as well. I am tempted to hook up a spare HR24 in my equipment rack solely for the purpose of playback of Genie recordings using Native mode, which is still present on the HR24.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

compnurd said:


> The menu isn't really hidden. It has been functioning like that for the last 2 NR


I did not know that. Most people aren't checking their menu settings on a regular basis, much less thinking that any of the settings, especially the native setting was going to be removed without any warning.

In my case unless I had seen the post yesterday at AVS Forum and then come here I would not have discovered that my HR-54 (set to native on) was now down converting all my HD channels to 720p. See my earlier post on all I had to do to get 1080i back.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

njfoses said:


> I can confirm I no longer have the option on my C61K with 0x11fe or on my HR54 with 0x1214. Long pressing select shows native off.


Unbelievable ! Just when I thought AT&T could not screw up DirecTV more.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> I did not know that. Most people aren't checking their menu settings on a regular basis, much less thinking that any of the settings, especially the native setting was going to be removed without any warning.
> 
> In my case unless I had seen the post yesterday at AVS Forum and then come here I would not have discovered that my HR-54 (set to native on) was now down converting all my HD channels to 720p. See my earlier post on all I had to do to get 1080i back.


In our case it was instant obvious, especially the picture getting softer. Without this thread I would have to poke around to find why. Hope to be off directv by year end now. See my previous posts for more info.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

mgavs said:


> In our case it was instant obvious, especially the picture getting softer. Without this thread I would have to poke around to find why. Hope to be off directv by year end now. See my previous posts for more info.


I am not really understanding how the picture can get softer

And unless you go streaming.. No one else offers a native option on there DVR


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

mgavs said:


> In our case it was instant obvious, especially the picture getting softer. Without this thread I would have to poke around to find why. Hope to be off directv by year end now. See my previous posts for more info.


While I have not done extensive research or evaluation, it is not obvious what other choices there are that provide the large selection of channels, full-featured DVR equipment, reliability of service, and general picture quality that DTV offers. While I admit that the last two have deteriorated recently, especially after the AT&T purchase, what are the viable alternatives? Is there a thread or forum that provides a deep dive into other services?


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

compnurd said:


> I am not really understanding how the picture can get softer


You don't have a video processor, that's why I said see my previous posts.



compnurd said:


> And unless you go streaming.. No one else offers a native option on there DVR


My AppleTV is all native hbo, showtime, amazon, stunning quality. I get all OTA via antenna HD Homerun 4 tuner box, and use the Channels app and a Mac for DVR, all native and _much_ better quality than directv or steaming network shows. All for $80 a year for guide data. Best thing... wireless to all 6 TVs and 5 iPads, and we can stream the DVR stuff to our iPhones remotely.

I have not figured out which streaming will replace directv, we don't have much left on it we watch, especially since we get HBO and Showtime from Apple. TCM is a hard one to find streaming.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

What about DirecTV Now?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

mgavs said:


> You don't have a video processor, that's why I said see my previous posts. My AppleTV is all native hbo, showtime, amazon, stunning quality. I get all OTA via antenna HD Homerun 4 tuner box, and use the Channels app and a Mac for DVR, all native and _much_ better quality than directv or steaming network show. All for $80 a year for guide data. Best thing... wireless to all 6 TVs and 5 iPads, and we can stream the DVR stuff to our iPhones remotely.


Well I mean some of that is No crap. Compared to Streaming and OTA, Directv is going to be softer. Every single cable or Sat Company is going to be like that.
This isnt anything at all remotely new in the last few decades

There hasnt been a purposeful deterioration of PQ by Directv. They have more then enough bandwidth

And As I stated, _*And unless you go streaming.. No one else offers a native option on there DVR*_


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> What about DirecTV Now?


It operates based on the streaming device.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

compnurd said:


> I am not really understanding how the picture can get softer
> 
> And unless you go streaming.. No one else offers a native option on there DVR


My local cable company has the TiVo Roamio and Bolt receivers and those give you native options for all the resolutions from 480p to 1080p. There's no 2160p as they don't have any 4K yet. Super easy to set up and all the handshakes are flawless.

And the TiVo Bolt DVR has 1-3 TB of hard-drive storage.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> My local cable company has the TiVo Roamio and Bolt receivers and those give you native options for all the resolutions from 480p to 1080p. There's no 2160p as they don't have any 4K yet. Super easy to set up and all the handshakes are flawless.
> 
> And the TiVo Bolt DVR has 1-3 TB of hard-drive storage.


It doesnt behave the same way Directv Native does You can browse the Tivocommunity forums to validate this


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## detroit1 (Feb 8, 2012)

I noticed on my Genie that the native is gone. when I press info from the video, it says to go to menu setting video, then scroll right to see native but I don't see it

what do I have to do to get native back ?


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

detroit1 said:


> I noticed on my Genie that the native is gone. when I press info from the video, it says to go to menu setting video, then scroll right to see native but I don't see it
> 
> what do I have to do to get native back ?


Read through this thread beginning with message #65.


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## detroit1 (Feb 8, 2012)

I just read thru message #65 and still not working. I tried to uncheck the 720p and 1080i, etc but no change and the native is not in the menu

any other suggestions on how i can get native back on ?


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

You can't. That is the point of the discussion going on. The setting was removed that allows you to change it.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

detroit1 said:


> I noticed on my Genie that the native is gone. when I press info from the video, it says to go to menu setting video, then scroll right to see native but I don't see it
> 
> what do I have to do to get native back ?


Have you looked at the thread title, or actually read any of the discussion? The latest SW upgrade removed the Native option. The only way you can still have the Native option for your video playback is to play everything from a C61K client, and we don't know how much longer the option will remain available on the client.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

compnurd said:


> It doesnt behave the same way Directv Native does You can browse the Tivocommunity forums to validate this


The only way I need the TiVo box to behave is that with native on it allows my TV to output all the native resolutions I selected in the TiVo menu. So when I'm watching ESPN my TV's feedback says it's outputting 720p, and that's all that should matter, no ? The TV is doing the scaling, not the TiVo box.

How's any of that any different than my TV getting the native command to scale from the DTV boxes ?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Why would you want native anyways? It's really a bad idea which is probably why it was removed. It causes your whole video chain (DVR, AVR, TV) to have to go through the whole resync cycle as you change resolutions which will add about 2+ seconds to a channel change (assuming the resolution has changed). For best results, Native OFF, output at 1080i/p/4k, upscaling on your AVR OFF and let your TV scale it at the end.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> Why would you want native anyways? It's really a bad idea which is probably why it was removed. It causes your whole video chain (DVR, AVR, TV) to have to go through the whole resync cycle as you change resolutions which will add about 2+ seconds to a channel change (assuming the resolution has changed). For best results, Native OFF, output at 1080i/p/4k, upscaling on your AVR OFF and let your TV scale it at the end.


In theory, the up-scaler on the DVR won't do as good a job as the up-scaler on a high-end display. For 1080i broadcasts, the DVR passes the signal on to the display at 1080i resolution, so Native mode On or Off would be no different. But for 720p broadcasts (see a previous post for a listing of the channels broadcasting in 720p, including a number of sports channels), the DVR will up-scale to 1080i before passing to the display, where it would be up-scaled a second time (for 4K-ready TV's). Subjecting the 720p signal to up-scaling in the DVR results in a lower-quality image, and is generally not desirable for purists for whom picture quality is much more important than slower response when changing channels.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

compnurd said:


> It doesnt behave the same way Directv Native does You can browse the Tivocommunity forums to validate this


Can you provide a brief explanation why the TiVo does not provide a Native mode that performs the same way that the Native mode on a DTV DVR does? That would save us a lot of time having to find and read the correct Tivocommunity discussion. Or perhaps a link directly to the discussion? Thanks!


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> Can you provide a brief explanation why the TiVo does not provide a Native mode that performs the same way that the Native mode on a DTV DVR does? That would save us a lot of time having to find and read the correct Tivocommunity discussion. Or perhaps a link directly to the discussion? Thanks!


When I set Tivo video format to "auto" I observe that Tivo's actual output is:
from Comcast 720p... it's 1080p
from Comcast 1080i... it's 1080p
from 4K... it 1080p <-- very odd that "auto" downscales the resolution

When I set Tivo video format to check the 4K passthrough, 1080p, 1080i & 720p check-boxes, I observe that Tivo's actual output is:
from Comcast 720p... it's 1080p
from Comcast 1080i... it's 2160 x 3840 <-- very odd that 1080i is upscaled to 4K
from 4K... it 2160 x 3840

The other issue is if you check all of the boxes(for a native effect) when you use a streaming app it will ramp up or down the resolution based on performance


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

What model Tivo do you have? I have a Bolt, and it doesn't work like you say. Maybe it is due to having it connected to a 1080p TV instead of a 4K TV? If I check 720p and 1080i it will switch resolutions when I switch channels. That transition is visible on my plasma, and annoying, so I checked only 1080p so it will upscale and there's no transition when I change channels.

This is what I found when I bought it a couple years ago at least, maybe things have changed. Or maybe it was due to me using the "old" HD GUI instead of switching to the new one.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> What model Tivo do you have? I have a Bolt, and it doesn't work like you say. Maybe it is due to having it connected to a 1080p TV instead of a 4K TV? If I check 720p and 1080i it will switch resolutions when I switch channels. That transition is visible on my plasma, and annoying, so I checked only 1080p so it will upscale and there's no transition when I change channels.
> 
> This is what I found when I bought it a couple years ago at least, maybe things have changed. Or maybe it was due to me using the "old" HD GUI instead of switching to the new one.


It could be GUI related also From reading various threads he behaves differently between them


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

compnurd said:


> When I set Tivo video format to "auto" I observe that Tivo's actual output is:
> from Comcast 720p... it's 1080p
> from Comcast 1080i... it's 1080p
> from 4K... it 1080p <-- very odd that "auto" downscales the resolution
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to explain it. It doesn't seem like desirable behavior, IMO.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I just checked on my Tivo right now. I had "1080p (automatic)" selected and I changed it to 720p and 1080i. I was on an ABC station which is 720p, and changed to a NBC station which is 1080i and got the second of screwy video my plasma gives me when it changes modes, and again when I switched back. So it is confirmed that at least with TE3 (20.7.4.RC42) on a Bolt if you check the resolutions you want it will behave like "native mode" on Directv, while "automatic" basically acts like Directv does (but better, since it will upscale everything to 1080p60 or 4Kp60 depending on your TV)

I can't say for sure if the reason compnurd sees something different is because he's got a 4K TV (but I doubt it, I have separate options for 4K that are greyed out for me) or if it is a TE3 vs TE4 thing or if it is a Bolt thing (if he has an older Tivo) I'm not gonna switch to TE4 to check, even though I can switch back I don't know if that would mess up some of my settings so I'm not gonna risk it sorry!

For those who are curious, you can still switch to TE3 even on a brand new Bolt that comes with TE4, so if native mode is really THAT important to you, you can get it on Tivo. There are several shortcomings to TE4 as far as I'm concerned so I will never switch. Tivo has said they will keep supporting TE3. Heck, AFAIK they still support the old SD GUI (I guess that's TE2?) so they aren't like Directv in forcing you to abandon a GUI you like.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> I just checked on my Tivo right now. I had "1080p (automatic)" selected and I changed it to 720p and 1080i. I was on an ABC station which is 720p, and changed to a NBC station which is 1080i and got the second of screwy video my plasma gives me when it changes modes, and again when I switched back. So it is confirmed that at least with TE3 (20.7.4.RC42) on a Bolt if you check the resolutions you want it will behave like "native mode" on Directv, while "automatic" basically acts like Directv does (but better, since it will upscale everything to 1080p60 or 4Kp60 depending on your TV)
> 
> I can't say for sure if the reason compnurd sees something different is because he's got a 4K TV (but I doubt it, I have separate options for 4K that are greyed out for me) or if it is a TE3 vs TE4 thing or if it is a Bolt thing (if he has an older Tivo) I'm not gonna switch to TE4 to check, even though I can switch back I don't know if that would mess up some of my settings so I'm not gonna risk it sorry!
> 
> For those who are curious, you can still switch to TE3 even on a brand new Bolt that comes with TE4, so if native mode is really THAT important to you, you can get it on Tivo. There are several shortcomings to TE4 as far as I'm concerned so I will never switch. Tivo has said they will keep supporting TE3. Heck, AFAIK they still support the old SD GUI (I guess that's TE2?) so they aren't like Directv in forcing you to abandon a GUI you like.


I am using Hydra so who knows. It does seem confirmed but I can't because I don't have one you can not roll back to TE3 on the new Bolt OTA But now since the Tivo Edge has been leaked supposedly possibly running Android TV who knows what will happen there


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> In theory, the up-scaler on the DVR won't do as good a job as the up-scaler on a high-end display. For 1080i broadcasts, the DVR passes the signal on to the display at 1080i resolution, so Native mode On or Off would be no different. But for 720p broadcasts (see a previous post for a listing of the channels broadcasting in 720p, including a number of sports channels), the DVR will up-scale to 1080i before passing to the display, where it would be up-scaled a second time (for 4K-ready TV's). Subjecting the 720p signal to up-scaling in the DVR results in a lower-quality image, and is generally not desirable for purists for whom picture quality is much more important than slower response when changing channels.


In *theory* is the key here. When I first upgraded to 4K (AVR and TV), I tested all the various combinations of who scales what... DVR or AVR or TV. The Denon AVR (which the one I have is $1500, so not a cheap AVR at all) was easily the worst scaler. Not even being picky, it introduced very obvious jaggies all of the picture. Terrible. DirecTV locked to 1080i/p and letting the TV scale it to 4K was no visible difference even close up vs. native pass through.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

If they took away native mode on, and are up scaling everything to 1080i, why do they still have the resolution check list?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

TheRatPatrol said:


> If they took away native mode on, and are up scaling everything to 1080i, why do they still have the resolution check list?


Probably for folks that still have older 480i/p & 720i/p TVs or projectors.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

On my TiVo Roamio I don't check "Auto". I just check 1080p 60fps, 1080i, and 720p. And as I change channels I get the native resolution for each one, confirmed by my TV's feedback, as my cable company just passes it through. My TV does the switching & scaling. No muss no fuss. 

I don't have any problem with the time it takes for channels to change resolutions and I have no sync issues. I want to see the networks in the original HD resolution they are broadcasting in and not in any upscaling or downscaling of the interlaced and progressive scans. 

That is what I prefer. If others prefer something else that is fine also. Different strokes for different folks.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

TheRatPatrol said:


> If they took away native mode on, and are up scaling everything to 1080i, why do they still have the resolution check list?


You still need 1080p and 2160p in the resolutions checklist as those do not get downscaled to 1080i unless you want to.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> On my TiVo Roamio I don't check "Auto". I just check 1080p 60fps, 1080i, and 720p. And as I change channels I get the native resolution for each one, confirmed by my TV's feedback, as my cable company just passes it through. My TV does the switching & scaling. No muss no fuss.
> 
> I don't have any problem with the time it takes for channels to change resolutions and I have no sync issues. I want to see the networks in the original HD resolution they are broadcasting in and not in any upscaling or downscaling of the interlaced and progressive scans.
> 
> That is what I prefer. If others prefer something else that is fine also. Different strokes for different folks.


Do you have an AVR?


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> Do you have an AVR?


I have a Crestron DM matrix which runs all my sources (video/audio). The TiVo boxes (as well as the DTV receivers) have to go through Crestron's input cards, output cards, and room controllers. Because of all this equipment I want my sources to run in native in case Crestron is processing anything already.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> I have a Crestron DM matrix which runs all my sources (video/audio). The TiVo boxes (as well as the DTV receivers) have to go through Crestron's input cards, output cards, and room controllers. Because of all this equipment I want my sources to run in native in case Crestron is processing anything already.


Going to be blunt your set up probably is unique to about 1% of Directv customers compared to the and i am sure they have solid data amount of customers calling to complain about native


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

compnurd said:


> Going to be blunt your set up probably is unique to about 1% of Directv customers compared to the and i am sure they have solid data amount of customers calling to complain about native


If native is turned off why does anyone need to complain about it ?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> If native is turned off why does anyone need to complain about it ?


The complaining is most likely it being on and people calling to complain about slow channel changes etc. if they get rid of it. Who knows. Maybe they figured out they can eliminate 5000 calls a day


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

compnurd said:


> Going to be blunt your set up probably is unique to about 1% of Directv customers compared to the and i am sure they have solid data amount of customers calling to complain about native


I doubt 1% of the population has a Creston setup .


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> If native is turned off why does anyone need to complain about it ?


It used to be turned on by default I believe.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> If native is turned off why does anyone need to complain about it ?


Btw, dunno if you noticed or not, but HDMI 2.1 has a new feature called QMS. Because people complained about the "slow" re-sync times .


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> Btw, dunno if you noticed or not, but HDMI 2.1 has a new feature called QMS. Because people complained about the "slow" re-sync times .


What does QMS do ? Does it mess around with the HDMI's PQ performance ? I think I have HDMI 2.2 but need to ask the installers.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> What does QMS do ? Does it mess around with the HDMI's PQ performance ? I think I have HDMI 2.2 but need to ask the installers.


No such thing as HDMI 2.2 (yet). Currently in the field is 2.0b. 2.1 is rolling out.

QMS is quick media switching. It's intended to get rid of the "slow" re-sync cycles that most of us are complaining about.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

BigRedFan said:


> What does QMS do ? Does it mess around with the HDMI's PQ performance ? I think I have HDMI 2.2 but need to ask the installers.


You probably mean HDCP 2.2.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

TheRatPatrol said:


> You probably mean HDCP 2.2.


Thanks, yes, I stupidly assumed that HDCP 2.2 meant that my HDMI was also 2.2.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> No such thing as HDMI 2.2 (yet). Currently in the field is 2.0b. 2.1 is rolling out.
> 
> QMS is quick media switching. It's intended to get rid of the "slow" re-sync cycles that most of us are complaining about.


Thanks, I'll ask tomorrow whether I've gotten HDMI 2.1 yet. The QMS sounds attractive as long as no adverse variables have been introduced in the HDMI chain.


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

The timing on removing the 'native on' option sucks, what with so many people adding LCCs to bring in over-thr-air channels right now. With so many of the sub-channels being at lower resolutions, I'd really prefer to let my tv do the upscaling as it does a better job than my HR44 does.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

makaiguy said:


> The timing on removing the 'native on' option sucks, what with so many people adding LCCs to bring in over-thr-air channels right now. With so many of the sub-channels being at lower resolutions, I'd really prefer to let my tv do the upscaling as it does a better job than my HR44 does.


I'd really prefer if the LCC didn't drop audio every few seconds .


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

For people jumping in the middle of this thread and confused about why many of us *need native ON* functionality, please read my multiple previous posts for an explanation. Especially the one referencing my letters to directv in 2007 that got native going, then in 2008 to improve 4x3 handling. Both of my suggestions were implemented after contacting directv engineering.

We are devastated about the loss of picture quality. Many people here may not see a difference, but for us it's obvious and very significant. It also prevents the video processor from correctly scaling some older shows, a great loss to us and no way around it. The have no issue with the _very slight_ increase in channel change time compared to the picture _quality_ improvement that is now lost.

This is the nail in the directv coffin for us. I knew ATT would screw it up (very badly) sooner or later.

Most people on this forum should be very concerned about this loss, Why? Because even if it does not affect you now..... it most likely will when you get a TV that clearly does better processing than the DVRs, which is becoming more common or you invest in a video processor. *You no longer have the option of getting the best possible picture from DirecTV if that's your objective.* If your on this site, you probably want the best picture.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

BigRedFan said:


> Thanks, I'll ask tomorrow whether I've gotten HDMI 2.1 yet. The QMS sounds attractive as long as no adverse variables have been introduced in the HDMI chain.


You don't have HDMI 2.1 unless you have an 8K TV, and no set tops support it. It isn't a software upgrade, an HDMI 2.0 port will never be upgraded to HDMI 2.1.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> You don't have HDMI 2.1 unless you have an 8K TV, and no set tops support it. It isn't a software upgrade, an HDMI 2.0 port will never be upgraded to HDMI 2.1.


A couple of the 2019 4K LG's support it but yeh there is no "Source" yet. The next Xbox or PS5 might be the first


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> What does QMS do ? Does it mess around with the HDMI's PQ performance ? I think I have HDMI 2.2 but need to ask the installers.


Not going to lie, you may want to spend less time worrying about what Native did or does and more asking your "installers" exactly what you have


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

mgavs said:


> For people jumping in the middle of this thread and confused about why many of us *need native ON* functionality, please read my multiple previous posts for an explanation. Especially the one referencing my letters to directv in 2007 that got native going, then in 2008 to improve 4x3 handling. Both of my suggestions were implemented after contacting directv engineering.
> 
> We are devastated about the loss of picture quality. Many people here may not see a difference, but for us it's obvious and very significant. It also prevents the video processor from correctly scaling some older shows, a great loss to us and no way around it. The have no issue with the _very slight_ increase in channel change time compared to the picture _quality_ improvement that is now lost.
> 
> ...


1) SD channels are going away shortly. Like next year. There isn't going to be ANY 4:3 content when that happens. All 4:3 content will be delivered as 16:9 on the HD channels depending on your stretch / pillar box settings
2) If your high end video processor can't handle 4:3 content delivered as 16:9, you should take that up with your video processor company as that will be your only option going forward. Dish is also going to be dropping SD channels soon.
3) Native Pass-through on HD channels doesn't do anything (except if there are any channels that still deliver as 720).

Since DirecTV is dropping SD channels, I'm going to assume that's why they are dropping native pass-through as there isn't really a use for it when that happens. If you think only DirecTV is dropping SD channels, you'll want to do your homework. So is every other provider.

Once SD channels are gone, how does native pass-through help you?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> You don't have HDMI 2.1 unless you have an 8K TV, and no set tops support it. It isn't a software upgrade, an HDMI 2.0 port will never be upgraded to HDMI 2.1.


Not necessarily. 2020 equipment will start rolling out HDMI 2.1 (even on 4K equipment) as it has some features people are waiting for. QMS, low latency mode, etc. 8K resolution is just one of those features.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> 1) SD channels are going away shortly. Like next year. There isn't going to be ANY 4:3 content when that happens. All 4:3 content will be delivered as 16:9 on the HD channels depending on your stretch / pillar box settings
> 2) If your high end video processor can't handle 4:3 content delivered as 16:9, you should take that up with your video processor company as that will be your only option going forward. Dish is also going to be dropping SD channels soon.
> 3) Native Pass-through on HD channels doesn't do anything (except if there are any channels that still deliver as 720).
> 
> ...


Your missing a *lot* about native ON, 4x3 is a big problem but only one problem. If you don't have experience with a good video processor like Lumagen, you shouldn't make statements that may confuse people. *We have SD channels turned off*. I wish people could see what a processor can do to 4x3 on an HD channel with native on, it's magical. No offense but you don't know what you're missing. Oh and for the 4x3 problem we now have due to the native change.... one example... if the Dvr adds pillars or boxed the picture, *it becomes part of the video *which any processor can't arbitrarily remove because it's the picture. With native ON an HD channel will send native 480i (the processor displays the incoming signal) which is then upscaled to 1080P and we have *full control over what to do with the aspect ratio*, even variable options you never heard of but look fantastic. And *all automatic.
*
Oh, and *native pass through ON/OFF changes a lot on HD channels*, I can simply watch the signal type from the DVR to the processor displayed on the TV screen and there is a big difference between off and on. The signal display has resolution, refresh rate, chroma, aspect ratio, etc. Unless you have access to this you might never know what's happening.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

compnurd said:


> Not going to lie, you may want to spend less time worrying about what Native did or does and more asking your "installers" exactly what you have


I have a pretty good idea of what I have. The techs keep me posted on all new gear they install. My HDMI cables are high-speed (for 4K HDR) and that's all I felt I needed to know.

Nonetheless, my preference for wanting "native on" should not bother anyone. I've seen 720p sports channels in native and in upscaled 1080i. I hated the picture on the upscaled version, there was a difference. If someone feels differently they can just turn native off.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

mgavs said:


> For people jumping in the middle of this thread and confused about why many of us *need native ON* functionality, please read my multiple previous posts for an explanation. Especially the one referencing my letters to directv in 2007 that got native going, then in 2008 to improve 4x3 handling. Both of my suggestions were implemented after contacting directv engineering.
> 
> We are devastated about the loss of picture quality. Many people here may not see a difference, but for us it's obvious and very significant. It also prevents the video processor from correctly scaling some older shows, a great loss to us and no way around it. The have no issue with the _very slight_ increase in channel change time compared to the picture _quality_ improvement that is now lost.
> 
> ...


Yes, could not agree more with you ! Hard to understand why some are in favor of this choice being taken away.

If I don't mind how long it takes for resolutions to change why should anyone else care ? The option to turn it off is still there for everyone.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> Yes, could not agree more with you ! Hard to understand why some are in favor of this choice being taken away.
> 
> If I don't mind how long it takes for resolutions to change why should anyone else care ? The option to turn it off is still there for everyone.


Because your not everyone else????


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

mgavs said:


> Oh, and *native pass through ON/OFF changes a lot on HD channels*, I can simply watch the signal type from the DVR to the processor displayed on the TV screen and there is a big difference between off and on. The signal display has resolution, refresh rate, chroma, aspect ratio, etc. Unless you have access to this you might never know what's happening.


What the difference in signal between it on/off on a HD channel showing actual HD content?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

compnurd said:


> A couple of the 2019 4K LG's support it but yeh there is no "Source" yet. The next Xbox or PS5 might be the first


Good catch, I forgot that a few of LG's OLED already supported 4Kp120 input.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> Not necessarily. 2020 equipment will start rolling out HDMI 2.1 (even on 4K equipment) as it has some features people are waiting for. QMS, low latency mode, etc. 8K resolution is just one of those features.


Yes but I said you don't HAVE HDMI 2.1, I wasn't talking about what you could get in the future. In five years you won't be able to buy a TV without it, but that doesn't change what someone has in their house right now.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> Once SD channels are gone, how does native pass-through help you?


For 720p channels, which includes quite a few sports channels.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Yes but I said you don't HAVE HDMI 2.1, I wasn't talking about what you could get in the future. In five years you won't be able to buy a TV without it, but that doesn't change what someone has in their house right now.


Oops... typo... I meant 2019 not 2020. Here is a report on what 2.1 features are supported on what TVs:

HDMI 2.1 Features In 2019 Samsung, LG TVs Clarified | HD Guru

So, same nonsense we saw with hdmi 2.0... they'll advertise as 2.1, but only implement some of the features.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mgavs said:


> We are devastated about the loss of picture quality.


The majority of DIRECTV channels are 1080i. If you set your receiver to Native OFF and 1080i output then your DIRECTV receiver will output the exact same picture quality as when you set your receiver to Native ON and tune to a 1080i channel. Zero change in picture quality due to the Native setting.

Where Native makes a difference is when you tune to a channel that is not the same as the output mode chosen. For example, tuning to a 1080i channel with the receiver output set for 720p. With Native OFF the receiver converts any format received to the one output mode chosen. With the majority of channels being in 1080i I'd recommend setting the output to 1080i. (1080p and 4K content will still be output in 1080p and 4K, regardless of the 720p vs 1080i setting.)

ABC and Fox broadcast networks and their cable/sports channels are the channels affected. Watching these 720p feeds on a 1080i output means that the receiver stretches the 1280x720 pixels to fill 1920x1080 and drops half of the frames. If one chooses 720p as their output format those channels will be passed as if the receiver was set to Native ON (no loss in picture quality) but 1080i channels would be reduced in resolution to 1280x720.

Losing the "Native ON" setting means customers have to choose one of the problems above ... allowing the receiver to stretch 720p or allowing the receiver to down convert 1080i. It does not destroy the PQ of every channel ... only the channels in the resolution not chosen (and a savvy customer can choose to change the receiver output to match the channels).

I won't spend too much time on SD since DIRECTV SD is generally considered to be lousy. Whether it is converted to 720p or 1080i before hitting the TV or processor doesn't make much difference. The best processor in the world is only polishing a turd when receiving a SD signal.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> What the difference in signal between it on/off on a HD channel showing actual HD content?


For 1080i channels, there should be no difference. For 720p channels being up-converted by the DVR, many see a difference with Native off.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> The majority of DIRECTV channels are 1080i. If you set your receiver to Native OFF and 1080i output then your DIRECTV receiver will output the exact same picture quality as when you set your receiver to Native ON and tune to a 1080i channel. Zero change in picture quality due to the Native setting.


Is Mgavs claim correct? That 4:3 content on a HD channel using NPT gets passed as raw 4:3 content? My understanding was it was formatted as 16:9 at the source. That the stretch / pillar boxing would have zero effect. Can't really test that myself now... but I did check some SD channels that had old 4:3 content showing on them and they were all pillared AND letter boxed, so they are all screwed up period.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'd like the name of one DIRECTV channel that is transmitting 4:3 HD. 4:3 SD yes. But linear channels typically pick one format and transmit everything in that format. An ABC or Fox affiliate that has chosen 720p retransmits everything in 720p (regardless of source). A CBS or NBC affiliate that has chosen 1080i would do the same - everything in 1080i. They are not changing formats to match the source of their syndicated programming. They are not changing their broadcast to SD when they are airing SD source material. The same applies to all of the "cable" channels on DIRECTV ... they transmit the same signal format 24x7, regardless of source.

So Mgavs, as politely as possible, where are you getting 4:3 HD via DIRECTV?

If I recall correctly there are flags that can be transmitted with a feed that can tell a receiver how to present the program if the aspect ratio does not match. For example a 4x3 program can be flagged to be pillarboxed (bars on both sides) or cropped (lose content top and bottom) or stretched. A 16x9 program can be flagged to be letterboxed (bars top and bottom) or cropped (lose content on both sides or on one side). If I recall correctly the 16x9 cropping can be adjusted to provide a pan and scan 4x3 output (the portion of the screen shown is not consistently the middle of the screen). Is DIRECTV passing any of this content information on any channel?


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

Seems some here will never be convinced, too bad. Remember, this is not about SD or 4x3, it is _only one problem_. T*his is not only a 4x3 problem *so don't get fixated on that. You need to read what a processor does I posted earlier.

To answer one question about it though... the TCM channel is _HD,_ but a lot of old movies are 4x3. With native ON we can eliminate the bars and the processor can do a non linear stretch so it's not noticeable, with Native OFF it can't be done because the bars are part of the picture. In other words, the picture is reported as 16x9 instead of 4x3. Please don't tell me you don't like stretch, you've never seen ours which works magic. We Love our stretch on the processor.

Oh, and For those saying just go in and change resolutions, not only is that a joke since we never had to do it before, But it *does not fix the 4x3 problem on TCM. *

If you don't use native ON great. But don't tell us who know how it works we don't need it until you walk in our shoes. Bottom line is our *picture quality is substantially degraded *due to the loss of native on and there is *no work around*. After working hard to get directv to add native back in 2007 to improve quality for some, and enjoying what was clearly the best picture (forget about dish and Comcast dealing with this) we are, to say it politely... really upset.

One more thing... I am no dummy about this. Been in electronics since the 60s, and had a TV repair business for a while. Computers for the last 45 years. And documented 3 options to Directv engineering on the native option. Not to mention the expense of the best TVs and video processors and learning a lot at video equipment trade shows and from vendors.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I assume your receiver has lost Native ON?
If not, please take a picture of the information that shows the signal delivered to your processor. If you have lost Native ON you can't perform this request.


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## ColdCase (Sep 10, 2007)

BigRedFan said:


> Yes, could not agree more with you ! Hard to understand why some are in favor of this choice being taken away.
> 
> If I don't mind how long it takes for resolutions to change why should anyone else care ? The option to turn it off is still there for everyone.


There seemed to always be some confusion where the format conversion takes place and how that effects picture quality. Its not a simple conversion as some here may think. But then some here also think the butchered/altered video display in a showroom mode is the best thing since sliced bread. Much about video viewing is subjective, if the video is in color my spouse is happy 

Some TVs have excellent scalers and converters, much better than the typical cable boxes (or DVD players), because they just know the display technology (the little dots on a monitor screen doesn't know 480i from 1040) and care more about taking native video and presenting it on its specific screen in the best quality/accuracy/least artifacts (for a price of course). Years ago I selected TVs/monitors,DVD players with the best scaling/conversion as I watch on a 65 inch monitor. Give it the native (original unmodified video) and let it work the magic. The average Joe could care less.

Anyway, limiting the upscale to the substandard DirecTV box scalling is disappointing to video technocrats. But if the scaling is done before DirecTV gets the video or before its sent over the link, as some have suggested, we are all screwed as ATT doesn't care about PQ anymore. Our video processors and excellent scalers are now useless.  Time to start looking for alternatives as it seems good enough for most and ATT management is not good enough to some.. and DirecTV was a good choice for those some.. Just about anything looks good on a phone sized monitor....


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

mgavs said:


> Please don't tell me you don't like stretch, you've never seen ours which works magic. We Love our stretch on the processor.


How does your non linear stretch differ from the non-linear stretch built into most everything these days? I think my TV does a non-linear stretch and it is over a decade old. I can't say for sure because I let my Tivo do stretch and zoom when necessary.

For 4:3 content I usually use the "zoom" on my Tivo. It cuts off a bit on the top and bottom but unless the director has used really tight framing on closeups that cuts off the top of someone's head that works better than a non-linear stretch as I'm far as I'm concerned.

The only frustrating thing about that is that if I forget turn off zoom (since it doesn't matter for any 16:9 HD content) when I go to the Amazon Prime app it will zoom everything. I usually notice at the beginning of 2:35:1 movie if I can't read some of the text in the beginning of the movie that's cut off to the side, but sometimes I've watched half a movie before I realize it lol


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

mgavs said:


> Seems some here will never be convinced, too bad. Remember, this is not about SD or 4x3, it is _only one problem_. T*his is not only a 4x3 problem *so don't get fixated on that. You need to read what a processor does I posted earlier.
> 
> To answer one question about it though... the TCM channel is _HD,_ but a lot of old movies are 4x3. With native ON we can eliminate the bars and the processor can do a non linear stretch so it's not noticeable, with Native OFF it can't be done because the bars are part of the picture. In other words, the picture is reported as 16x9 instead of 4x3. Please don't tell me you don't like stretch, you've never seen ours which works magic. We Love our stretch on the processor.
> 
> ...


So you are saying TCM delivers 4:3 in HD on its HD channel? I find that hard to believe since that would break everybody who doesn't have $3000 Lumagens which is 99.999999999999% of the population. Or do you mean that its 16:9 content that is "incorrectly" flagged as 4:3? Doesn't your processor have an option to clip pillars & letter boxes? They are a fixed size.

Either way, there's not much point in complaining about it. 2007 DirecTV is not equal to 2019 AT&T. AT&T doesn't care about the 0.00000001% of people that have Lumagens. They've removed waaayyy more popular features then that. Including some that I used, so I get your annoyance.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> How does your non linear stretch differ from the non-linear stretch built into most everything these days?


Your non-linear stretch isn't magical . Joking aside, obviously scaling quality varies wildly even on popular consumer brands. You'd be disgusted if you saw how my $1500 Denon AVR scales 1080i/p to 4K.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

Great idea taking a before after pictures of the signal. However, had I known this would happen.... Plus, I don’t care if some people don’t believe me, that’s not my problem.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

The stretch is magical because it's not licensed to anyone else. Not valid to compare a $1500 AVR to a $6K dedicated video processor. Hope this helps you understand what _I see_.


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## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> Either way, there's not much point in complaining about it. 2007 DirecTV is not equal to 2019 AT&T. AT&T doesn't care about the 0.00000001% of people that have Lumagens. They've removed waaayyy more popular features then that. Including some that I used, so I get your annoyance.


I am sure you made up that percentage since nowhere is the real number available. Regardless, You're not getting the *very important point I made earlier.*.. back in 2007 and for many years after, the dvr scaling (unlike a processor that's all it does) was about equal to TVs of the day. Today, TVs are far more likely to be much better than the dvr, and native ON would often be a better choice. Let me give you an example... we still have two Pioneer Kuros, one on the video processor and one not. For *both* TVs, Native ON provides a better picture, obviously the processor has more options, but the one without is clearly also *better with native on because the pioneer, although old, does much better scaling than the DVR*.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

mgavs said:


> The stretch is magical because it's not licensed to anyone else. Not valid to compare a $1500 AVR to a $6K dedicated video processor. Hope this helps you understand what _I see_.


I'll be the first to tell you the $1500 AVR is not only bad at scaling, it is downright horrible and I don't mean that as somebody staring at my TV with a magnifying glass or using high end features. This was just basic 1080i -> 4K. I even posted side by side pics years ago of letting the AVR scale vs letting the DVR & TV do it. The DVR & TV produced a nice clean pic of somebody we aren't allowed to discuss on here , the AVR introduced jaggies all over the pic. Could spot it from my couch 15 ft away.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

mgavs said:


> I am sure you made up that percentage since nowhere is the real number available. Regardless, You're not getting the *very important point I made earlier.*.. back in 2007 and for many years after, the dvr scaling (unlike a processor that's all it does) was about equal to TVs of the day. Today, TVs are far more likely to be much better than the dvr, and native ON would often be a better choice. Let me give you an example... we still have two Pioneer Kuros, one on the video processor and one not. For *both* TVs, Native ON provides a better picture, obviously the processor has more options, but the one without is clearly also *better with native on because the pioneer, although old, does much better scaling than the DVR*.


Yes, I understand everything you are complaining about. Yes, I did make up the number, however, I'd be willing to bet $$$ that its fairly accurate for people that have dedicated $6k video processors. You do realize a lot of people barely have $6k cars right? .

Anyways, like I said, your complaints are going to fall on deaf ears as people have complained about feature removals many times before and DirecTV chugged along. I for one complained about the *removal* of trick play in the menus and guides, many people complained about media sharing being removed, I also complained about the removal of HDMI output from the HS17 as well as its unusual form factor. People also complain about the remote, etc.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> So you are saying TCM delivers 4:3 in HD on its HD channel? I find that hard to believe since that would break everybody who doesn't have $3000 Lumagens which is 99.999999999999% of the population. Or do you mean that its 16:9 content that is "incorrectly" flagged as 4:3? Doesn't your processor have an option to clip pillars & letter boxes? They are a fixed size.
> 
> Either way, there's not much point in complaining about it. 2007 DirecTV is not equal to 2019 AT&T. AT&T doesn't care about the 0.00000001% of people that have Lumagens. They've removed waaayyy more popular features then that. Including some that I used, so I get your annoyance.


TCM has shown many HD movies in 4:3 format as that was the original screen format they were produced in prior to 1950. "Gone with the Wind", the 4 hour classic, is the most notable example. It was produced in 1939 long before Hollywood switched to the widescreen format in the 1950's to compete with television. I have classic Bluray films from that era, including Gone with the Wind, and they show in their original 4:3 (1080p) HD, not in the 16:9 format.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

TCM uses a pillarbox format for 4:3 movies (anything less than 16:9 wide) and letterbox for wider than 16:9 content.

Their distribution feed is a consistent 16:9 regardless of the content being aired. They are NOT changing the format of their distribution feed based on the aspect ratio of the content currently being aired.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> TCM uses a pillarbox format for 4:3 movies (anything less than 16:9 wide) and letterbox for wider than 16:9 content.
> 
> Their distribution feed is a consistent 16:9 regardless of the content being aired. They are NOT changing the format of their distribution feed based on the aspect ratio of the content currently being aired.


Most likely what mgavs is seeing is that his processor detects the 4:3 pillarbox and knows to stretch it. Not sure why he believes TCM is broadcasting in 4:3 HD. There isn't such a thing.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Most likely what mgavs is seeing is that his processor detects the 4:3 pillarbox and knows to stretch it. Not sure why he believes TCM is broadcasting in 4:3 HD. There isn't such a thing.


Isn't there a flag in the stream that gives the aspect ratio so the dvr knows how to display it? Native must be mucking with that flag. Yes, agreed though... I'd say its highly unlikely that TCM is sending actual 4:3 HD.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> Isn't there a flag in the stream that gives the aspect ratio so the dvr knows how to display it? Native must be mucking with that flag. Yes, agreed though... I'd say its highly unlikely that TCM is sending actual 4:3 HD.


MPEG2/MPEG4 don't have aspect ratio flags (well MPEG4 has one that isn't used) but MPEG2 and MPEG4/AVI only support square pixels, so you can derive it from the header entries that specify height/width in pixels. Maybe there's somewhere encoded in the headers that tells you it is a letterbox etc. format so it could tell there's a 4:3 hidden inside a 1920x1080 stream?

If Directv DVRs (whether native mode or not) were using that, a TV connected to it should notice the change, i.e. if you had your TV set to not stretch and show gray borders that's what you'd see when it was fed a "4:3" TCM HD stream.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> MPEG2/MPEG4 don't have aspect ratio flags (well MPEG4 has one that isn't used) but MPEG2 and MPEG4/AVI only support square pixels, so you can derive it from the header entries that specify height/width in pixels. Maybe there's somewhere encoded in the headers that tells you it is a letterbox etc. format so it could tell there's a 4:3 hidden inside a 1920x1080 stream?
> 
> If Directv DVRs (whether native mode or not) were using that, a TV connected to it should notice the change, i.e. if you had your TV set to not stretch and show gray borders that's what you'd see when it was fed a "4:3" TCM HD stream.


I always had Native OFF, No Stretch, Black Bars. SD channels would show 4:3 with black pillars and HD channels would fill the screen. Some channels like my local ABC 7.3 mess up the signal somehow and the DVR displays 3:3 (a square distorted picture). I've seen that on a few other channels. On others, the SD version just rebroadcasts the HD version inside a letter box AND a pillar. A few times I've even seen a 16x9 pic in a letter box with pillars and then letter boxed again so its literally a square pic taking up 25% of the screen.


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## Rob37 (Jul 11, 2013)

I am so glad I do not have a DVR. I still have H25/500 Regular HD Receivers & they might have a little pixelation from time to time but atleast I still have Native Picture 720p or 1080i. I would be pissed if I lost "Native" HD picture quality.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Rob37 said:


> I am so glad I do not have a DVR. I still have H25/500 Regular HD Receivers & they might have a little pixelation from time to time but atleast I still have Native Picture 720p or 1080i. I would be pissed if I lost "Native" HD picture quality.


LOL I am sure they are next


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Rob37 said:


> I would be pissed if I lost "Native" HD picture quality.


I'd be pissed if I had to watch commercials and live my life around the TV and that's coming from a person who hangs out on a TV message board .


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## Rob37 (Jul 11, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> I'd be pissed if I had to watch commercials and live my life around the TV and that's coming from a person who hangs out on a TV message board .


 I have DIRECTV mostly for MLB Extra Innings & NFL Sunday Ticket. And yes I watch LIVE games. I don't care to watch an old recorded game. I watch them LIVE so yeah having commercials is part of it. Commercials don't bother me.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

compnurd said:


> LOL I am sure they are next


The H2x/HR2x might be safe just because Directv isn't really messing with their software much anymore. Did the HR34 even lose its native mode or is that a "feature" of the new GUI?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> The H2x/HR2x might be safe just because Directv isn't really messing with their software much anymore. Did the HR34 even lose its native mode or is that a "feature" of the new GUI?


Possibly. My HR24 still had media share when I "threw it in the trash". Granted, it was a pretty worthless media share that couldn't decode modern video / audio formats, but it still had it.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, I checked today, and my C61K has now lost the Native option as well. It is showing SW ver 0x11FE. This leaves only my HR24 as still having a Native option.


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## Rob37 (Jul 11, 2013)

slice1900 said:


> The H2x/HR2x might be safe just because Directv isn't really messing with their software much anymore. Did the HR34 even lose its native mode or is that a "feature" of the new GUI?


 I know my receivers are safe. They still have the old guide. I never have had a new guide so I know they aren't messing with the software and I am glad they aren't messing with it. They never needed to change a thing in the first place & knowing ALL I know about how DVR's & their "Clients" cause ALL kinds of trouble, I am ecstatic that I have the older HD only NON DVR receivers. To heck with all the fancy schmancy. I need my receivers to be able to perform, not give headaches & trouble.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

JerryMeeker said:


> Well, I checked today, and my C61K has now lost the Native option as well. It is showing SW ver 0x11FE. This leaves only my HR24 as still having a Native option.


Same here... also lost native on my C61K's overnight, now matching up with the HR-54.

My H25's continue to have the native option available, who knows for how long.


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## mika911 (May 2, 2006)

I had noticed this myself due to the fast channel changes between ESPN and all the 1080i channels.

What does everyone do leave it in 1080i? Do you lose much when doing that on a 720p ESPN channel for example? In the past, I have tried to tell a difference. The striking thing is always how much better the guide looks on a 1080i channel. The actual picture on ESPN seemed pretty close, though sometimes I wondered about motion compared to the clean, native 720p?

I have an OLED, I'm pretty darn critical, but it is close.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

mika911 said:


> I had noticed this myself due to the *fast channel changes* between ESPN and all the 1080i channels.
> 
> What does everyone do leave it in 1080i? Do you lose much when doing that on a 720p ESPN channel for example? In the past, I have tried to tell a difference. The striking thing is always how much better the guide looks on a 1080i channel. The actual picture on ESPN seemed pretty close, though sometimes I wondered about motion compared to the clean, native 720p?
> 
> I have an OLED, I'm pretty darn critical, but it is close.


EXACTLY! You noticed the much faster channel changes!  That's because when you switch resolutions at the DVR, your DVR needs to resync, your AVR needs to resync and your TV needs to resync. Basically your whole video chain needs to go through the whole process of "reconnecting".

And that's on top of the typical "up to about 2 seconds" it takes to change a channel on DirecTV since the video is encrypted, the ASIC on the access card needs a second or two to pull the decryption keys out of the stream, do its math, etc. and start decrypting the video.

At the end of the day, the people with $6k dedicated video processors is effectively 0% and the scaler in the DVR is pretty darned good. Is it the best in the world? Probably not, but its definitely better then the one in my $1500 Denon AVR.

Now why DirecTV decided to remove it? My guess is that people would set it to on and call about slow channel changes.


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## Rob37 (Jul 11, 2013)




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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mika911 said:


> The actual picture on ESPN seemed pretty close, though sometimes I wondered about motion compared to the clean, native 720p?
> 
> I have an OLED, I'm pretty darn critical, but it is close.


As noted earlier in the thread, watching 720p with the receiver output set to 1080i makes the receiver stretch the screen to fit 1920x1080 instead of 1280x720 and you lose half of the frames. I'm not sure I can see 60 fps. 

I don't watch enough sports (720p) to worry about it. The regular programming I watch on ABC and Fox networks isn't fast action. And my 4K set does a good job of taking the 720p output as 1080i by the receiver and displaying it. I only know the difference between 720p and 1080i because I know what the broadcasters are sending. I don't tune to Fox broadcast and say "oh, this is one of those 720p channels".


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Now why DirecTV decided to remove it? My guess is that people would set it to on and call about slow channel changes.


Possibly related to the issue of clients losing the 4K checkbox. That theory doesn't explain why AT&T removed it on non-4K clients and receivers. But someone at AT&T decided that Native didn't need to be there any more.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

mika911 said:


> I had noticed this myself due to the fast channel changes between ESPN and all the 1080i channels.
> 
> What does everyone do leave it in 1080i? Do you lose much when doing that on a 720p ESPN channel for example? In the past, I have tried to tell a difference. The striking thing is always how much better the guide looks on a 1080i channel. The actual picture on ESPN seemed pretty close, though sometimes I wondered about motion compared to the clean, native 720p?
> 
> I have an OLED, I'm pretty darn critical, but it is close.


720p signals will be up-converted to 1080i by the DVR. The only way to avoid this would be to delete 1080i as a capability of your display, which AFAIK will cause 720p to be output as 720p. The problem with this approach is that making the change is time-consuming, and when you want to go back to watching a 1018i channel, you need to reverse the change. Not worth the effort, IMO. I have not watched very much 720p content since Native mode was removed, so I can't comment on whether the DVR does a reasonable job of up-converting the signal. You be the judge. I do know that many of us would strongly prefer if DTV would re-enable the Native mode option.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

James Long said:


> As noted earlier in the thread, watching 720p with the receiver output set to 1080i makes the receiver stretch the screen to fit 1920x1080 instead of 1280x720 and you lose half of the frames. I'm not sure I can see 60 fps.


I don't understand this at all, James. When we watch 720p up-converted to 1080i, the picture is not stretched, and we are not losing any pixels. I am looking at an episode of The Middle on Freeform HD (311), and the image is not stretched and looks perfectly fine to me.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> I don't understand this at all, James. When we watch 720p up-converted to 1080i, the picture is not stretched, and we are not losing any pixels. I am looking at an episode of The Middle on Freeform HD (311), and the image is not stretched and looks perfectly fine to me.


So sounds like you are fine with the DVR upscaling ability .


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> So sounds like you are fine with the DVR upscaling ability .


My question has nothing to do with whether I like the up-scaling or not. I was asking for clarification from James-it sounds like he is saying that part of the picture is cropped or thrown out when viewing 720p content up-scaled to 1080i. That doesn't sound right to me.


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> When we watch 720p up-converted to 1080i, the picture is not stretched, and we are not losing any pixels. I am looking at an episode of The Middle on Freeform HD (311), and the image is not stretched and looks perfectly fine to me.


Maybe I can help with this.

Both 720p and 1080i wide screen formats are in the same 16:9 ratio (1280x720 and 1920x1080 pixels, respectively). So to go from 720 to 1080 you must stretch the image 1.5 times IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, vertically and horizontally. Since the stretch is the same in both directions, everything stays in the same proportion and the resulting rescaled image doesn't look "stretched".

To over simplify a bit, for any square of 2x2 pixels (i.e. 4 pixels) in the 720 image, the upscaler must convert this into a square of 3x3 pixels (i.e. 9 pixels) for the 1080 image by interpolating between the original pixels to fill in the matrix and create 5 extra pixels to approximate the missing data for the higher resolution. Some upscalers do a better job of this than others, making the rescaled image look better on some than others.

Many modern TVs (and external image processors that a minority of people use) do a better job of rescaling than does the DTV equipment. This is why some folks are upset that DTV is removing the "native on" option from its Genies. With "native on" the receiver passes the image on in the same resolution in which it was received, and the TV (or image processor) does the rescaling. Without "native on" the Genie (or Genie client) does all the rescaling, and all the TV can do is pass it though as received.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

makaiguy said:


> Maybe I can help with this.
> 
> Both 720p and 1080i wide screen formats are in the same 16:9 ratio (1280x720 and 1920x1080 pixels, respectively). So to go from 720 to 1080 you must stretch the image 1.5 times IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, vertically and horizontally. Since the stretch is the same in both directions, everything stays in the same proportion and the resulting rescaled image doesn't look "stretched".
> 
> ...


Thanks, but I understand and agree with everything you said. But help me understand what James is saying here: "*watching 720p with the receiver output set to 1080i makes the receiver stretch the screen to fit 1920x1080 instead of 1280x720 and you lose half of the frames.
*
Are you saying James' words are exactly the same as what you said? Perhaps you said it more eloquently?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Both describe the same process of taking a 921,600 pixel image and turning it into a 2,073,600 pixel image. I call that stretching to keep the language simple. "Upscaling" works as a word.

The second half of the statement should not be forgotten since 720p has 60 full frames per second and 1080i/1080p has 30 full frames per second. Not only does the converter need to figure out how to fill five out of nine pixels in every frame but it has to discard half of the frames. 55.296 million pixels per second becomes 62.208 million pixels per second.

Those with a 4K display would see their 1080 inputs doubled in both dimensions (1 pixel becomes 4). A native 720p input to a 4K display would require the set to create a 3x3 square out of each pixel (4 pixels become 36). Easy math. People with the second conversion mathematically would have a better picture with "Native ON" (or setting their output to 720p when watching a 720p channel to avoid the intermediate format). Whether or not the average viewer would see the difference is a matter of opinion.








The top row represents a 720p image and how it fits into a 1080 or 4K image. Converting to 1080 the four corner pixels can be kept but the other five need to be calculated, as shown on the bottom row 1080. The bottom row represents a 720p image converted to 1080 and then converted to 4K.

This image is simplified and does not take in to account the frame rate. (The conversion alogarithm may take in to account the transition between frames when reducing the frame count along with the creation of the additional pixels.) Most conversions would look at more than just four pixels to create the nine or 36 pixels - but this is simplified.

(And one should remember that the source material is a compressed satellite signal - not pristine pixels frozen in time.)


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

"James Long said:


> Those with a 4K display would see their 1080 inputs doubled in both dimensions (1 pixel becomes 4).


1080 -> 4K upscaling doesn't actually just double the pixels in both directions, it's a bit more complicated then that . Just doubling the pixels in both directions will give you a bad case of the jaggies.

And it wouldn't drop every other frame in this case either since the DVR won't have that information. MPEG video compression doesn't include full frames (aside from the resync frames), it includes the diffs from the previous frame. So again.. a bit more complicated then dropping half the frames .

But at the end of the day... yeah...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

"Most conversions would look at more than just four pixels to create the nine or 36 pixels - but this is simplified."


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> Thanks, but I understand and agree with everything you said. But help me understand what James is saying here: "*watching 720p with the receiver output set to 1080i makes the receiver stretch the screen to fit 1920x1080 instead of 1280x720 and you lose half of the frames.
> *
> Are you saying James' words are exactly the same as what you said? Perhaps you said it more eloquently?


I tried to keep it simple by not mentioning frame rate. The 'p' and 'i' in 720p and 1080i have meaning.

720p = 720 Progressive. With 720p each of the 720 horizontal rows of pixels is painted across the screen one after the other with the whole frame taking 1/60th of a second, giving you 60 complete image frames/second.

1080i = 1080 Interlaced. It has to deliver 2.25 times more pixels per image frame than a 720 frame. It uses the interlacing scheme developed for early tv on slower equipment, where the screen paints every OTHER row (originally analog raster lines, now rows of digital pixels) across the screen in 1/60th of a second, but that only gives you half the full image frame. It then goes back and paints the remaining alternating rows in the next 1/60th of a second, so it takes 2/60ths = 1/30th of a second to paint a complete frame.

So 720p gives you 60 full frames/sec while 1080i gives you 30 full frames/sec. That's why he said when converting a 720p broadcast to display as 1080i, half of the 720p frames are lost.

Further, if you have a rapidly changing image, those second-pass interlaced image pixels will represent image portions that may have been created 1/60th of a second later than the first series of pixel lines, so they can be slightly displaced relative to pixels already on the screen, potentially resulting in a reduction of image sharpness for rapidly changing images, or at least for the rapidly changing parts of the frame. This mostly occurs on live broadcasts or taped live events captured in interlaced format. Since our eyes usually see rapid movement as a blur anyway, this effect often can go unnoticed. Broadcasts sourced from film ars less susceptible to this issue since they provide a series of static images that only change 24 times a second.

And finally, a set that can handle 1080p might actually be able to upscale a 720p image at its full 60 frames/sec if its conversion capability is fast enough to keep up, but I don't know if there are any sets that do this.

I'll just crawl back in my hole now ...


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## PeteSL (May 5, 2007)

Well, they are taking Native Mode out of the minis too  Just noticed that my C41-100 is now at 0x11fd and no longer offers Native Mode (and Native Mode has been turned off in the Info page). Haven't check our C61 but I am guessing the same bug is being propagated to it as well. For those who question why Native Mode, if you watch sports that are original format 720p and the DTV box is "upscaling" to 1080i, you will notice some periodic jerkiness in the picture which is quite distracting. And with 4k TVs, as previously posted, you are actually seeing a double upscaling which causes not only the jerkiness in motion but an actual loss of resolution due to the double processing of the signal.

Also, if you watch any SD channels (like the Western Channel, for instance) that sometimes show movies in wide format, to switch between Pillar Box and Letter Box format is extremely cumbersome without Native Mode unless you remove all of the native settings. Really bad move on DirecTV's part.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

On my C61K with 0x11fd once you click on the word Video in settings the Native Mode does not show up there but if I right click it appears and I can still turn it on...or off.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> On my C61K with 0x11fd once you click on the word Video in settings the Native Mode does not show up there but if I right click it appears and I can still turn it on...or off.


11FE removes it You should get that soon as it is the current NR for the C61k's


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Yeah I've been expecting it but so far haven't got it.


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## B_H (Sep 24, 2003)

Dumb question. I've been reading this post and most of the reference in discussions refers to 1080i. I've got a 1080p tv and have only 1080p checked in my HR24 (native off). Is this ok, or should I also have both 1080i and 1080p checked. Thanks.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

B_H said:


> Dumb question. I've been reading this post and most of the reference in discussions refers to 1080i. I've got a 1080p tv and have only 1080p checked in my HR24 (native off). Is this ok, or should I also have both 1080i and 1080p checked. Thanks.


If you want to avoid video processing on the HR24, you should turn Native on as well as enable all of the resolutions your TV supports (420p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p). The TV will perform the necessary up-conversion to its native 1080p resolution, with better PQ.


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## B_H (Sep 24, 2003)

Yes I've tried the Native ON with those resolutions checked and didn't notice much difference in Native ON and OFF. I'll *probably* go with OFF (for the added speed) and just trying to determine which should be checked: 1080i, 1080p or both? Just wanting to make sure that I have the proper one(s) checked for comparison purposes.


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## Soccernut (Jan 20, 2004)

This argument reminds of when they decided to colorize black and white films, to me you can't improve on what's already perfect, Citizen Kane is not going to look better in color.


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## bmcleod (May 13, 2006)

Glad I found this thread. I’d seen my PQ degrade and in troubleshooting saw that my C61K was sending everything to one of my 4K TV’s in 720p, regardless of channel. I looked and saw all of the resolutions were checked, but also noticed ‘Native Mode’ had disappeared (even though the help button still tells you how to select it). The only channel that wasn’t 720p was 104, which properly came across as 2160p.

I tried removing 1080p to see if making a change would fix it, but no, I had to remove 720p which then forced everything to 1080i, but the picture did improve for NBC I’d been testing with. Re-checking the 720p box made no difference, everything came across in 1080i, even ABC, FOX, & FX (thanks James for the list). I confirmed via OTA that my local ABC and FOX channels do broadcast in 720p, but via the C61K it’s all 1080i. This is in contrast to the poster who said his system was changing resolution like it used to when Native Mode worked.

What really got interesting was testing ABC, Ellen Degeneres was on and it didn’t look good at all, I switched to OTA and it got better but still wasn’t great. I googled to see that her show is ‘taped’ in 1080i, but broadcast locally on ABC in 720p, then the C61 rescales back 1080i, and finally my TV takes in to 2160p ... talk about a stepped on signal. At least now most of my channels are in their native 1080i format, but I’d sure like Native Mode back; what a lot of trouble to put us through fixing this, and think how many don’t even know how messed up things are? (and someone here thinks this is the right way to do this?)

... oh yeah, I had to repeat all this for my other C61K / 4K TV.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

I did not have the same problems that you reported—everything is sent by my HR54 as 1080i. For programming that is already 1080i, I don’t see any significant PQ degradation. I watch very few 720p programs from Fox or ABC, so TBH, I haven’t seen much difference in PQ.


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## bmcleod (May 13, 2006)

Right, some here have reported their systems stuck in 720p and some in 1080i, if you’re the latter then you might not notice much. Possibly as you point out, HR54’s remain in 1080i and C61K’s in 720p. I too watch little ABC and Fox (now Orville), though some FX, so now being stuck in 1080i is the better place to be. The point is I had to fix it, most wont.


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

bmcleod said:


> Right, some here have reported their systems stuck in 720p and some in 1080i, if you're the latter then you might not notice much. Possibly as you point out, HR54's remain in 1080i and C61K's in 720p. I too watch little ABC and Fox (now Orville), though some FX, so now being stuck in 1080i is the better place to be. The point is I had to fix it, most wont.


Same thing happened to my receivers when the new software hit them--- all the HD channels were coming through in 720p, no 1080i anywhere.

I also had to go to the resolutions screen and take out 720p. Once I did that then the HD channels all came in 1080i (except the 4K ones which were 2160p).

As you said, imagine the thousands of DTV subscribers who are now watching all their HD channels in 720p as a result of native being taken out and not being aware of the downgraded signal they now have as a result. Obviously, no warning or explanation from AT&T about the new software and the native implications.

They must be fans of Marie Antoniette-- "let them eat cake !"


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## bmcleod (May 13, 2006)

Called DTV Tech Support today, got someone who was confident in his statements, but not always correct. After listening patiently to him tell me how it works, he (mostly) patiently listened to me say that no, the resolution does not follow the broadcast like it used to. He then went to a test system and confirmed Native Mode was missing, and said he wasn’t aware of that, also that he’d pass it onto engineering. He also (finally) understood and admitted that without Native Mode, the box couldn’t present the proper resolution to the TV. Maybe if enough of us call in they’ll put it back.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Nice job. I hope others are calling and expressing disappointment as well.


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## nuke (Aug 14, 2003)

Yeah, this is disappointing. Mine was stuck in 720p and looked like poo. It wouldn't reset, so did the red-button reset and at least I can change it to 1080i now. But it still looks like poo. 

Something else changed. My set is still setup properly and calibrated with instruments, yet, it looks soft and low contrast now on the HR44. 

More and more reasons to join the cord cutters.


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## crendall (Jun 27, 2006)

I was looking for the Native mode and couldn't find it, but I found this thread discussing about it being removed. I have a Sony 4K TV hooked up to an HR44. I removed all TV resolutions, only leaving 1080p checked. I think it improved the picture quality and changing channels is definitely faster.


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

crendall said:


> I was looking for the Native mode and couldn't find it, but I found this thread discussing about it being removed. I have a Sony 4K TV hooked up to an HR44. I removed all TV resolutions, only leaving 1080p checked. I think it improved the picture quality and changing channels is definitely faster.


I've done the same with my Sammy.

Changing channels is faster because the receiver doesn't have to renegotiate the HDMI handshake with the tv each time it changes the resolution of the signal it sends the tv.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Anyone notice any difference in PQ on ESPN now that its up converted to 1080i?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Anyone notice any difference in PQ on ESPN now that its up converted to 1080i?


No but I am sure someone here saw a pixel difference and the world is ending


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Anyone notice any difference in PQ on ESPN now that its up converted to 1080i?


What do you mean "now that it is upconverted to 1080i"? If it is, it is your receiver doing it. ESPN hasn't changed from 720p.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

SledgeHammer said:


> Isn't there a flag in the stream that gives the aspect ratio so the dvr knows how to display it? Native must be mucking with that flag. Yes, agreed though... I'd say its highly unlikely that TCM is sending actual 4:3 HD.


Could be AFD &#8230; Active Format Description - Wikipedia


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## Bradman (Aug 8, 2011)

My CK61 was outputting 720p all the time with all resolutions checked after most recent FW, as soon as I made any changes, it now stays in 1080i. This allows full pixel non-zooming for 720p channels like ESPN, it seems. Really bad that Native was removed, the simpler fix would have been to make non-native the default, the vast majority of users would never think to change the setting at all.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Bradman said:


> My CK61 was outputting 720p all the time with all resolutions checked after most recent FW, as soon as I made any changes, it now stays in 1080i. This allows full pixel non-zooming for 720p channels like ESPN, it seems. Really bad that Native was removed, the simpler fix would have been to make non-native the default, the vast majority of users would never think to change the setting at all.


What do you mean "full pixel non-zooming"? The C61K now outputs *everything *in 1080i, which means ESPN 720p is up-scaled in the device. Many of us think this degrades the PQ.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> What do you mean "now that it is upconverted to 1080i"? If it is, it is your receiver doing it. ESPN hasn't changed from 720p.





JerryMeeker said:


> What do you mean "full pixel non-zooming"? The C61K now outputs *everything *in 1080i, which means ESPN 720p is up-scaled in the device. Many of us think this degrades the PQ.


This. With the new software everything is outputted in 1080i. Unless you go in and change the settings ever time you want to watch a 720p channel, which is a PITA.

Why does AT&T have to remove everything thats not broken?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Why does AT&T have to remove everything thats not broken?


because such decision making by big wigs who have own "vision" what they feel must satisfy whole world


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## BigRedFan (Mar 28, 2010)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Anyone notice any difference in PQ on ESPN now that its up converted to 1080i?


Yes, watching the UM- Gators game on Saturday night the difference was quite obvious. Video was not as sharp on the running plays, 720p does the better job.

Plus, the up conversion to an interlaced format which is not ESPN's original production format adds a blurring effect in 1080i action plays which was not there before.

I'm now watching ESPN on my cable company's TiVO which passes through the native 720p. I compared both signals last night and it was a no-brainer to watch the game on the TiVo.


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## Bradman (Aug 8, 2011)

JerryMeeker said:


> What do you mean "full pixel non-zooming"? The C61K now outputs *everything *in 1080i, which means ESPN 720p is up-scaled in the device. Many of us think this degrades the PQ.


Many TVs cannot display full pixel mapping on 720p sources, resulting in a slightly zoomed image. 1080i ESPN looks great on my set, YMMV.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Bradman said:


> Many TVs cannot display full pixel mapping on 720p sources, resulting in a slightly zoomed image. 1080i ESPN looks great on my set, YMMV.


Just curious, which brand/model TV do you have?


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Bradman said:


> Many TVs cannot display full pixel mapping on 720p sources, resulting in a slightly zoomed image. 1080i ESPN looks great on my set, YMMV.


Not sure how this is relevant. All DTV output is now in 1080i, so what a display does with 720p is moot.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JerryMeeker said:


> Not sure how this is relevant. All DTV output is now in 1080i, so what a display does with 720p is moot.


All DTV output is in the format chosen by the user. The user can set their receiver to output 720p.

(The option removed was "native" ... which changed the receiver output based on what channel the customer was watching.)


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

James Long said:


> All DTV output is in the format chosen by the user. The user can set their receiver to output 720p.
> 
> (The option removed was "native" ... which changed the receiver output based on what channel the customer was watching.)


Just another AT&T brain fart. With Native On the receiver output was "automatically" changed based on what channel the customer was watching. With Native removed we now have to "manually" set the receiver output.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

James Long said:


> All DTV output is in the format chosen by the user. The user can set their receiver to output 720p.
> 
> (The option removed was "native" ... which changed the receiver output based on what channel the customer was watching.)


True, but I can't imagine setting the DVR to only output 720p when the majority of content is 1080i. Down-scaling 1080i to 720p does not sound desirable to me. And the hassle of changing the output to force 720p for 720p broadcasts does not sound very desirable to me either. I don't find the PQ of 720p up-scaled to 1080i to be particularly bad, IMO. Native option is gone, and since it was removed, I don't find outputting everything in 1080i so bad that I can't live with it.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> With Native removed we now have to "manually" set the receiver output.


Only if you find the PQ so bad you can't live with it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The point is that the receivers are not "1080i only" output. Customers can still select 720p output and discussion of how a 720p output is displayed is valid.

My choice is to set the receiver to 1080i, sacrificing Fox, ABC and other 720p channels for every other channel that I watch. By number of hours I watch more 1080i content each week than 720p. And I am not seeing huge issues with watching 720p when output as 1080i by the receiver. Obviously that is an opinion and your opinion may vary as to whether the actual PQ seen is acceptable.

By the numbers I'd prefer the channel be passed through as Fox and ABC intended ... in 720p. While some displays may have trouble with 720p (zooming too far or cutting off content) owners of those displays could choose to turn native off if the resulting signal was better. (My first HDTV was native 1080i ... it could display a 720p input but it was designed for the 1920x1080 matrix of 1080i.)

The numbers show what happens when 720p is converted to 1080i ... the screen is stretched (each block of four pixels is converted into a block of nine pixels with the processor calculating the color of the additional pixels and probably recalculating the original pixels to "correct" the image) and half of the frames are lost (60 frames of 921,600 pixels are converted to 30 frames of 2,073,600 pixels). Thanks to compression (EVERY SIGNAL IS COMPRESSED) the intermediate frames need to be used to adjust the next displayed frame. On content that requires 60 frames per second the viewer may lose the step where "pixel x is changed to color y" when the next of 60 frames is "pixel x is changed to color z". The lost information is less than a blink of an eye but (theoretically) could affect millions of pixels 30 times per second ... when added to the "stretch" one could say every frame is corrupted.

If your display does not handle 720p well the receiver may do a better job of stretching the image and dropping frames. But what is lost at the receiver cannot be restored by any further processing. A better 1080i display would still need to stretch a 720p image to fit the 1080 window, but it may be able to handle the 60 fps frame rate without discarding frames.

Where the difference is more likely to be seen is a 4K display. Converting 1080i to 4K is easy (double the pixels ... one pixel becomes four). Additional processing can be done to smooth the transitions between pixels. Converting 720p to 4K is also easy ... one pixel becomes nine (with additional smoothing still possible). A 4K set should be able to handle the 720p60 frame rate. By the numbers that is where I see having 720p output as 720p by the receiver (instead of 1080i) would make the most difference. But only by the numbers - I have a 4K display and as noted above, I am not seeing huge issues in the actual displayed image. Your opinion may vary.

A question: Are NFL Sunday Ticket feeds in the native mode for the network carrying the game that weekend? Are Fox games 720p while CBS feeds are 1080i? If so, how well did your receivers (when Native On was available) handle going back and forth between Fox and CBS feeds? Without Sunday Ticket an effect should have been seen going back and forth between local Fox and CBS stations.


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## Tubaman-Z (Jul 31, 2007)

I first became aware of this change via the thread NFL ST 2019 ??? and its discussion re: frame rate changes. After reading all 12 pages of this thread  I have the following thoughts/observations/question.

Regardless of what my signature says (I need to update it) I have a Genie 2, a 4K Genie Mini, and 2 Genie Minis (one of which will soon be replaced with a 4K Genie Mini)
Since becoming a DTV subscriber around 1995 I chose to use Native On to reduce the number of conversions of the signal, figuring that in general, fewer conversions are better and that my TV best knows what it should do with a signal. 
I watch a lot of sports and prefer to view in 720p vs 1080i primarily due to motion blur.
My A/V chain includes an Onkyo TX-NR585 AVR and a Sony XBR-85X850F TV. The AVR passes through video signals unaltered, allowing the TV to do any needed conversions.
The DTV "hidden menu" that you access via holding down Select 8-10 seconds lets you view your Native setting, but not change it. With this firmware change it is seemingly permanently set to "Off".
At least one of the DTV help screens still points to modifying your Native setting. Menu->Display Options->TV Resolution->More Info. So AT&T still has cleanup to do.
I believe that the AT&T Community Forum post referenced earlier (Native On/Off Video Display Option Removed From Latest 0x1214 HR44/54 Update, Is This Permanent?) holds a _*clue*_ to why this was removed. From the AT&T support rep: "When Native Mode is OFF, the resolution stays at a fixed value and prevents the TV from having to breakdown and rebuild its scaling pipeline, *providing a more seamless transition between channel changes. This will minimize black or blue or grey screens, artifacts such as screen flickering or audio distortions, and longer delay with channel change.*" As has been stated by others in this thread, I believe it is primarily a support cost reduction given that the vast majority of DTV customers are more sensitive to the *noted issues* than picture quality.
I wholeheartedly agree that the simplest change would have been to push out an update forcing Native to off but leaving the Native option present for those of us who care about it.
I have one question:

If I go through the Info menu options to set the resolution to 720p for a 720p channel (say Fox), will the channel have been converted to 1080i and then back to to 720p? While it seems silly to do so it could be done intentionally or accidentally. I will do a visual experiment to see but am wondering technically.
@James Long - To answer your question: "Are NFL Sunday Ticket feeds in the native mode for the network carrying the game that weekend? Are Fox games 720p while CBS feeds are 1080i? If so, how well did your receivers (when Native On was available) handle going back and forth between Fox and CBS feeds?" the answer is "Yes, they are in native mode." I was cognizant (visually, time-lag) of the resynchronization that happened when changing but didn't experience it often as I typically don't switch between on-going games. Net: It didn't bother me.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Tubaman-Z said:


> I have one question:
> If I go through the Info menu options to set the resolution to 720p for a 720p channel (say Fox), will the channel have been converted to 1080i and then back to to 720p? While it seems silly to do so it could be done intentionally or accidentally. I will do a visual experiment to see but am wondering technically.


As far as I know, setting the receiver output to the same format as the listed format for the channel will pass through that channel without an intermediate conversion.
When the receiver output is set to 720p, a 720p channel such as ABC or Fox will be output as 720p without converting it to 1080i then back to 720p within the receiver.
(With that setting 1080i channels such as CBS and NBC would be converted and output as 720p.)


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## Tubaman-Z (Jul 31, 2007)

James Long said:


> As far as I know, setting the receiver output to the same format as the listed format for the channel will pass through that channel without an intermediate conversion.
> When the receiver output is set to 720p, a 720p channel such as ABC or Fox will be output as 720p without converting it to 1080i then back to 720p within the receiver.
> (With that setting 1080i channels such as CBS and NBC would be converted and output as 720p.)


Thanks. I hadn't actually considered that it would leave the resolution at 720p - which is obvious in hindsight. Need to ponder.....


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## Bradman (Aug 8, 2011)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Just curious, which brand/model TV do you have?


Sony 900e


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## YOLOdactyl (Sep 17, 2017)

Add me to the list of people that didn't notice this was happening until Sunday Ticket.

Mine was stuck at 1080i and something just didn't look right about some of the 720p games. Sigh maybe I gotta try out them Hoppers again.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

YOLOdactyl said:


> Add me to the list of people that didn't notice this was happening until Sunday Ticket.
> 
> Mine was stuck at 1080i and something just didn't look right about some of the 720p games. Sigh maybe I gotta try out them Hoppers again.


Don't believe the Hoppers have Native


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

compnurd said:


> Don't believe the Hoppers have Native


Or NFLST.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Details ...


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## dishrich (Apr 23, 2002)

compnurd said:


> Don't believe the Hoppers have Native


NO DISH receiver has ever had native...


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

Tivo does and there is a CLEAR difference in PQ.
D* needs to reverse it's disastrous decision of eliminating the native option.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Does’t TiVo make a DirecTV compatible model? What is the model number? I need to research making a change.

Edit: Sorry, I see there is a thread here discussing the DTV Tivo.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> Does't TiVo make a DirecTV compatible model? What is the model number? I need to research making a change.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I see there is a thread here discussing the DTV Tivo.


You cant get it anymore and it is a Tivo Software from 3-4 revisions ago


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes, I just talked to Weaknees, and they confirmed what you said. Disappointing.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> Yes, I just talked to Weaknees, and they confirmed what you said. Disappointing.


Yes. So sad they don't support a 9 year old dvr that didn't sell well


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## provasek (Mar 19, 2014)

I got it on my HR44DVR about a month ago, but only noticed it weekend of Sept 21-22 when watching lots of sports. I immediately noticed something wrong watching sports on ESPN and Fox this weekend. The motion did not seem as smooth, and a couple of times a freeze frame revealed some combtooth edges on moving objects indicative of interlaced fields But Fox, ESPN and ABC have been 720P since the start of HDTV. I hit the info button on my TV and it showed ESPN was 1080i

The Directv message boards reassure viewers that nobody can tell the difference...and you can always press <info><right arrow><right arrow><right arrow><right arrow><1080i resolution + crop><480i resolution+stretch><480i resolution+Pillar Box><480i resolution+Original Format><480i resolution+crop><480p resolution+stretch><480p resolution+Pillar Box><480p resolution+Original Format><480p resolution+crop><720p resolution+stretch><720p resolution+Pillar Box><720p resolution+Original Format><done> (19 button presses!) --- but unless you change it every time you change channels, you will see 1080i and 1080p channels with 921,600 pixels instead of the 2,073,600 pixels as broadcast.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

provasek said:


> --- but unless you change it every time you change channels, you will see 1080i and 1080p channels with 921,600 pixels instead of the 2,073,600 pixels as broadcast.


I really don't understand this statement. Can someone explain?


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

provasek said:


> I got it on my HR44DVR about a month ago, but only noticed it weekend of Sept 21-22 when watching lots of sports. I immediately noticed something wrong watching sports on ESPN and Fox this weekend. The motion did not seem as smooth, and a couple of times a freeze frame revealed some combtooth edges on moving objects indicative of interlaced fields But Fox, ESPN and ABC have been 720P since the start of HDTV. I hit the info button on my TV and it showed ESPN was 1080i
> 
> The Directv message boards reassure viewers that nobody can tell the difference...and you can always press <info><right arrow><right arrow><right arrow><right arrow><1080i resolution + crop><480i resolution+stretch><480i resolution+Pillar Box><480i resolution+Original Format><480i resolution+crop><480p resolution+stretch><480p resolution+Pillar Box><480p resolution+Original Format><480p resolution+crop><720p resolution+stretch><720p resolution+Pillar Box><720p resolution+Original Format><done> (19 button presses!) --- but unless you change it every time you change channels, you will see 1080i and 1080p channels with 921,600 pixels instead of the 2,073,600 pixels as broadcast.


An easier way to change this is to go into settings and uncheck all resolutions except the 720p and the 1080i. That will eliminate all that you referenced with a 480 in the description.
Another way if you are just goin g to be watching sports all day is to go into resolutions and uncheck all but the 720p so it just stays there. then you can add the 1080i after you are done watching sports.


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

jimmie57 said:


> An easier way to change this is to go into settings and uncheck all resolutions except the 720p and the 1080i. That will eliminate all that you referenced with a 480 in the description.
> Another way if you are just goin g to be watching sports all day is to go into resolutions and uncheck all but the 720p so it just stays there. then you can add the 1080i after you are done watching sports.


Or D* could release and update that brings our NATIVE resolution back.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

I WANT MORE said:


> Or D* could release and update that brings our NATIVE resolution back.


That would be the best solution. I doubt if AT&T will do it.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> That would be the best solution. I doubt if AT&T will do it.


Yup. Not going to happen. Time to move on


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## plainsman (Nov 16, 2006)

Is there a magic search string to spring native? Along the lines of 30slip, 30skip?

Or a top-sikret button sequence? I'd love to run a strings command on the DVR executable.


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

plainsman said:


> Is there a magic search string to spring native? Along the lines of 30slip, 30skip?
> 
> Or a top-sikret button sequence? I'd love to run a strings command on the DVR executable.


There should be one. I think this should work if done so because the info screen still shows native. But it's off. Sad.

I never got my promised callback about this issue. Filtered out.

If moving along is the case, cancelling and moving on isn't off the table for me. I've got other outstanding issues with DirecTV that need resolution. I'll have to call and remind DirecTV they're not getting resolved.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Native is gone. I wouldn't expect it back. Don't know that as an absolute, but indicators are strong it won't return.


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

carl6 said:


> Native is gone. I wouldn't expect it back. Don't know that as an absolute, but indicators are strong it won't return.


They were stubborn enough to not rollback a known bug for 4k in order to save native going away. If that's not a sign that it's never coming back (and that the people making these decisions are morons), I don't know what is...


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

hancox said:


> They were stubborn enough to not rollback a known bug for 4k in order to save native going away. If that's not a sign that it's never coming back (and that the people making these decisions are morons), I don't know what is...


What was the 4K bug? I don't have 4K compatibility and don't think I've heard of that one?

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

armchair said:


> What was the 4K bug? I don't have 4K compatibility and don't think I've heard of that one?
> 
> Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


Judder from incorrect frame rates was being experienced by some. @Steady Teddy worked out a solution around the time of this post:

4K Bug Possible Solution


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

Athlon646464 said:


> Judder from incorrect frame rates was being experienced by some. @Steady Teddy worked out a solution around the time of this post:
> 
> 4K Bug Possible Solution


Thanks

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


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## guitarguy316 (Aug 24, 2017)

I just realized this is no longer an option! I guess I should roll with 720p?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

guitarguy316 said:


> I just realized this is no longer an option! I guess I should roll with 720p?


Only if your TV and most of the content that you watch is 720p.


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