# Woke up this AM to my 721s lost signal



## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Lost signal screen. I powered it off and back on and it was OK. But some recordings showed lost signal from last nite. It wouldnt let me leave the guide, cancel would not work. It said lost tuner 2 and I wanted to see if tuner one was out too.

Note I didnt reboot JUST power off and on. How wierd 

Seriously D Tivos dont do these things?


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

bob, 
Is there ANYTHING that is different about your setup that may be causing this?
Strange power fluctuations? Large machinery or compressors in you home?
Trees obstructing your dish? Dish not stable? Receiver in a place where heat can build up? Connected to really other, really old or oddball equipment?

You seem to have the worst luck and I was just wondering if there may be some strange cause for it.


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## Unthinkable (Sep 13, 2002)

Big Bob said:


> bob,
> Is there ANYTHING that is different about your setup that may be causing this?
> Strange power fluctuations? Large machinery or compressors in you home?
> Trees obstructing your dish? Dish not stable? Receiver in a place where heat can build up? Connected to really other, really old or oddball equipment?
> ...


Well he did report on here not long ago that he intentionally tried to short out one of his tuners to try and replicate a problem someone else was having with his 721.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Guilty as charged, but that was several days ago. Why would it show up now? Besides a minor short is likely when connecting sat connectors.

I have a 5 hp compressor that hasnt run in over a month. My receivers are on UPS, the 721 on a APC 500. The 508s on a different brand. No tree obstructions. ALL NEW SAT CABLES and new dishpro lnbs and switch, signal strength over 100 on all transponders, around 125 on many. The dish well mounted to a solid 4 by 4 deck post about 7 feet high.

721 sits on open tv stand temp around 103 at highest. I added spacers so it sits higher off the stand and runs cooler.

My 508s are in the basement. On top of a cabinet, away from disturbances like dogs. We hsaave 2 poodles.

BTW nmy wife reported the 721v flaked out again. A reboot appeared to fix it.
==================================================================

The last time someone said it was me it turned out to be the endless reboot caused by a software limit on the number of timers set. Others had the same problem.

BTW I tested my outlets with a circuit tester. Indicates good grounds and all outlets wired correctly.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I have noticed quite a few 721 flakiness lately myself. I had not had such trouble with this one nor my other one than I have had now. Still delays in channel change or blank channels. Sometimes if I turn the receiver off then on again it will correct the problem. At least a second tuner is not pixellating YET.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Thanks Jacob. See its not just me. I guess our heavy use gets bugs noticed faster


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Bob and Jacob since both of you are and were dealers I would be VERY nervous if I purchased my equipment from you two.

How come its only you two that have these problems?


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Scott you aLWAYS say that. Till more reports filter in.

We find the bugs because me and Jen are heavy users. 

I have been in service my entire adult life. When reps say your the omnly one woith a problem I get concerned. It usually means we have seen it and dont have a fix yet.

Of course all my boxes are refurbised ones. They had problems for someone else and now its my turn


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Bob I would hate to stand next to you in a thunder storm.

I am also willing to bet your eyes are brown.

When you intentially try to break a product and then it does finally flip out and then you complaign about it I have a problem. 

How stupid can you be?

Again if I was a customer of yours I would be very warry of your install job.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Scott I havent been a dealer for years. On to intentionally break it WHO hasnt accidently shorted a sat connection when moving a cable?

That risk was one reason for my dishpro upgrade. Fear of shorting and knocking out my SW64.

Scott thats fine NOW you have a reason for my bugs. I intentionally shorted days ago my sat coax to see if it caused a problem.

No problem at all tills days later when my box spazed.

Given the number of ways sat cables can short, clumbsy installers, crushed cables, whiskers on connectors the box should be tolerant of these sorts of issues.

I nerely reported a problem and Jacob has seen the same one.

I see your still defending E, thats fine EVERYONE here knows where you stand.

After all you wanted to BAN me when I posted the endless reboot problem here, then others reported it was caused by setting too many timers.

==================================================================
Lets agree it was the short!

Just like too many timers the E box is not fault tolerant of highly likely possible situations.

Can we agree n this? After all its your explnation!


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

bob, I've honestly never shorted a coax connection. I know enough and am careful enough to avoid that.

I've got an idea for our buddy Bob. He wants to switch to directivo pretty badly.. let's raise some money here to buy his equipment from him and give his receivers good homes so he can get his dtivo and shut the hell up.

Man, if I hadn't sold my UTV's, I would have given them to Bob in trade for his Dish equipment, and hopefully, his silence.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Neil sounds like a good idea to me. 

Its kind of funny if you look at the complaints about Dish Equipment you will notice who is the main ones complaigning.

Wonder who that would be?


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I do not see how it would make any difference whether the receiver would be purchased from me or Bob if they all initially come from the same place, the Dish warehouse. The last 301 replacement receiver I got the UPS driver spilled his drink on the botton of the box. I wonder why it was upside down in the first place for it to have gotten spilled on? I am glad that these receivers are wrapped with plastic well.

Seeing the other thread where people voted on the PVR failures I know me and Bob are not alone and seeing that others have had less trouble with the 508 and the 721 than the 501 is a sign that things are perhaps going in the right direction and I have had less problems with the 721 than the 501 in which lasted much longer than the 501 did when it failed.

When I put the PVR in I grounded it to an 8 foot ground rod, leave it in one place not moving it around, and keep a fan blowing near it in the room. It is not enclosed in a cabinet either. I do not use it to an extreme and most of the time half of the hard drive space is still free. My house has new electrical wiring all grounded. I dont see how I could have, in any way, caused the units to fail.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Please explain why that failure rate poll had such bad results? I only voted once. The problems are everywhere. Go look on the newsgroups or here at the wierd issues that come up.


Have none of you ever found a whisker on a coax connector?

I am planning on converting but will only be a new sub ONCE and will be patrient waiting for a deal that suits ME!


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Bob most of the crap and coplaints here come from YOU.

People are so sick of hearing your crap that you are the perso blocked most by the users.

I am starting to think you just like hearing yourself talk.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Yeah scott I have heard from others that you actively discourage post about problems. You dont want them here.

When I get some time this weekend I will go thru EVERY 721 troublew post here just to see whatr percentage I started, 

I too am curious about this. Scott feel free to do it if you want and post the results here. Please note how many bugs were UNIQUE to me! Thats a important question. Such things as endless reboot troubles and solutions help others to avoid the problem by say not setting too many timers or how to recover, by waiting for a one time one to fire. thats easier than RMAing the box.

The way I see it.

Bob started the post

bob said it had also occured to him

bob wasnt involved or tried to offer useful help.

Please note my short experiment was a attempt to help someone else who reported a problem and I merely tried good troubleshoioting procedure by attempting to recreate the problem.

My entire life has been fixing things and I am usually pretty good at it, its how I earned a living since I graduated high school in 1975

OF COURSE WERE HEAVY PVR USERS SO WE WILL LIKELY FINDS MORE BUGS!


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Bob if you were good at fixing things all your electronics wouldnt be turning to crap after you touch them.

How many receivers have you been through again?


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

A combo of 7 PVRS. most from hard drive failures, one endless reboot, 721 tuner failure. HEY DIDNT I DISCOVER THAT ONE FIRST TOO? and some other incidentals.

I would of fixed all the HD failures myself if E hadnt of locked us out of that


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Incidently the other electronic devices at my hoime have few problems. I tend to get tired of them and upgrade before they break. I guess I am just a E jinx.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I am still having problems with my 721. It acts so slow sometimes and when you change the channel the picture is still black. I pressed the system info button and it took a while before it came up then some info popped up before other info did. When it all appeared where it normally says the Smart Card Number and Card Revision it says Error: No information. When I finally got the channel to work I tried pressing system information again and all the information came up as it should.

I have had my computer for 4 years and not had it fail on me, among many other electronics without a problem. I had my first nonpvr failure a week ago and had Dish since 1997.

Perhaps one should see if there is a pattern here from where the people are located that are having these problems to see if it is coming from a certain warehouse or if UPS is part of the cause. Or maybe one should have a receiver shipped from where someone is having problems to see if someone else here experiences problems with it. 

I think it does make a difference in how much you use the receiver in some cases. The more you use it the more likely you will see the bugs and problems.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Jacob reboot when your receiver gets slow. Thats happewns here about once a week, so we reboot when were not recording anything.

I admit my DSL has been a hassle, of course the ill equipped tech AOL sent out wasnt a good thing. His laptop didnt have AOL loaded and he lacked tools to mount the dsl net splitter to the side of our house.

But he was friendly and tried to be helpful.

For all the electronic stuff around here I have few problems.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Jacob, you missed my point about buying Bob's equipment... I feel bad for the poor, mistreated 721 he owns. My 721 has been bulletproof. My 501 was bulletproof for me, I sold it to someone here who had no trouble with it, and they just sold the receiver again for a profit. I'd say that Dish equipment is stable.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Neil Derryberry said:


> I'd say that Dish equipment is stable.


Ahh excuse me. In what alternate existence are you living?

From our own Chris Blount.

Dish DVR's tend to have a high failure rate. Many need to return and exchange their receiver with Dish multiple times because of hard drive problems or other crazy abnormalities.

Please let us know which number receiver you are on. For instance, if you had to return your 501 one time, you are on receiver number 2. If you had to return it twice, you are on receiver number 3. If you never have had to return your receiver, you are on receiver 1.

If it's more than three then pick the last option.

If you own more than one model, pick the one with the highest return rate (if any).

__________________
Chris Blount
Administrator/Founder


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## the_beaver (Feb 15, 2003)

the only way to quantify the actual failure rate
is to know the number of receivers sold (the
denominator) and the number of returned
units (numerator)---our board only reflects 
savvy, connected, interested DISH enthusiasts or
disillusionists---i dare say that less than 90% of 
all DISH receivership does not post to this site and 
that experiences of posters here are most likely NOT 
representative of the experiences of the LARGE 
majority of E* customers...


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Beaver, just curious how you explain the very low failure rate and low bug report of the SAME group of well connected dishheads on direct tivos??

This makes your point a non issue espically since lots of previous E subs converted to D and dont report the same issues.

So E posters here have lots of troubles but when they convert to D these same posters problems evaporate?

Yeah sure E dooesnt have a problem


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

I don't think Beaver is saying that Dish PVRs don't have problems, he's just saying that there is no way of knowing how high or low the rate of problems is because the people who post here are only a very small sample of Dish subs, and are not "average" subs. 

I completely agree with him. No question the Dish PVRs have problems. But if you just look at Bob's experiences, you would say they are complete trash and never work for more than a week at a time. On the other hand, I have had a 721 for 9 months and I had to RMA it once because a tuner went out but aside from that I have not had any problems at all. So based on my experience, you would say that they are pretty solid.

Bob, add me to the list of people who don't understand why you haven't just switched to D* already. If you think E* is this bad, you have nobody but yourself to blame for staying with them.

Dennis


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Me and jen talked abut thisa a lot last night. Reasons why we stuck with E. Being lifetime sky angel subs she didnt want two systems to mess with. It will add all sorts of wierd issues here.
We are heavy users, and expect some issues but not this bad. We have all UHF remote receivers, D doesnt have a UHF remote D Tivo.These are the main issues that kept us with E.

Plus a little bit of loyalty. Charlie drove DBS to be mainstream wih expanding programming and LIL. Heck I even saw that launch too. Really dont want to leave, dont expect perfection just good solid operation. D and GM would still be a niche operation if it wasnt for charlie.

Were prepared to switch but I want to wait till D has the new sub deal WE want. Perhaps one like E with a HDef package. Your only new once.

In the mean time and before winter I will put up dishes for D and install the system less receivers. Having lost all the weight I dont tolerate cold at all.

BTW if you remember most if not all of my trouble reports were later verified by others. Like the endless reboot one. Finally scott actively discourages trouble reports so its likely there would be more of me if it wasnt for that.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Well it did it again But I was able to troubleshoot this one. Lost tuner two. I swapped cables and tuner two still out. So its time to RMA this one again. But at least I know what it is.

Now for everyone My experiment shorted tuner ONE, so I doubt this trouble is related. If it is then E should look as a shorted cable for at most 3 seconds can cause this problem Tuner two failure is a well known problem here and evidently my box doesnt like having one tuner out. It acts screwball. My signal strength is 125 on many transponders and over 100 on all non spotbeam transponders.

Odd thing its temperature is 120 degrees, normally its under 110. Its sitting where it always is, not covered with anything, spacers off the shelf for better airflow and recording one show at the time I checked.

Anyone know why the temperature varies?


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Hey anyone want to LOAN me a D Tivo for a couple months? I will sub it myself, and return it once jen decides she likes it. 

Thinking of subbing under jens maiden name and cell phone number so if she likes it we can be new subs and get all the goodies.

It can be a small hard drive for this.

Just think I can be done ranting and raving!


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I think it would be a good idea for Dish and Direct both to offer a deal where they let you try their DVR product to see how you like it with no strings attached for current or new subscribers. The new subscribers would still have to have a contract for their other receivers but the DVR unit would be an addition to the account. They could use the same receivers that were used before for a trial period for that sole purpose.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> Anyone know why the temperature varies?


I wonder how accurate the temperature reading is. If I watch mine for a minute, it will hop around, life from 114 to 108 to 112 and so on.

Dennis


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

> Finally scott actively discourages trouble reports so its likely there would be more of me if it wasnt for that.


We, including Scott, don't discourage any trouble report. Personally, I think you are a jilted ex-installer who is trying to get a free ride from Dish. Since they watch these forums, I hope that Dish has noted the fact that you effectively tampered with your receiver by trying to intentionally cause a problem and cancelled your warranty.

Your trouble reports are crap, and I hope everyone sees it.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I hold no ill will to E at all. I was a dealer till my health problems. Had weight loss surgery, My health improved but having lost all the weight I am cold if the temoperature is even chilly. This is a common siide affect of loosing a hundred pounds or more. Honestly I have a terrible time if its below freezing and dont tolerate cold at all. Have thought of moving to phoenix where I was born or Florida. So far me and jen cant agree.

Cant be a installer dealer who cant work in the cold.

Niel I have heard from others that scott has encouraged to not report problems. I got the same response from Scott when I reported the endless reboot bug. HE WANTED TO BAN ME! Fortunately chris prevented that and shortly thereafter others reported the same bug. 

All the defending E and giving posters who report problems a hard time doesnt change the fact that E boxes have troubles and even Chris this sites founder has posted that.

Just LOOK at chris B poll on troubles. Sure its not as bad as me but its still pretty bad for a consumer product.

As to tampering with my receiver. Connecting coax its very easy to short the connector. Bent center conductor, crushed cable, whisker short, bad crimp or coax stripping. I shorted input one for a couple seconds. IF that will wipe out what is supposed to be Es best receiver the design is very poor because shorts can and do commonly occur.

You might do E a favor admitting they have a problem. Perhaps then they will get the resources they need to design and fix things properly.

Niel since you believe my trouble reports are crap how do you explain how many folks have the lost tuner bug?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Bob from now on all your off topic posts and complaints will be removed.

Again you just like hearing yourself talk, please go do it somewhere else.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I rarely do OTs

Anyhow a good friend thinks my problem might be that I am getting refurbs. I already ordered another replacement. BUT THE NEXT ONE I WILL DEMAND A NEW BOX!

Probably good advice for anyone who gets stuck in this loop


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Bob from now on all your off topic posts and complaints will be removed.


Scott,

I find that statement a little scary and question the value of DBSTalk if you are going to start removing COMPLAINTS about DISH equipment (and what off topic posts are you talking about?).

I don't know what Bob's problems are (and you can take that anyway you want to) but "hardware and software problem" censorship is something that bothers me a lot.

I think that you need to clarify your statement about removing COMPLAINTS about DISH equipment on DBSTalk. YOUR statement sure makes it look like DISH is really calling the shots here and that isn't good.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I have an idea, have a forum where you complain about problems that you may have, that way they are kept there and people may gather thoughts and so forth there. Make it to where all posts to that nature would have to be put there if there would be multiple problem posts in a thread.


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