# Are DVR recordings stored in "lossy" format?



## Blaine

I heard that DVRs store recordings in the mpeg format? I know that each time you playback an mpeg file you loose a bit of quality each time. That is why always archive mp3 and mpeg files before playing them.


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## Mark Lamutt

Welcome to DBSTalk Blain. :hi:

Where did you hear that each time you play back an MPEG file you lose quality? You may lose some quality if you reencode it, but not playing it back. It's digital, and playing the file doesn't alter it.

But, that's beside the point. Dish DVRs (and Directivos as well for that matter) store the satellite signal exactly as it is received, so there's zero difference between watching it "live" vs watching it later. In fact, with DVRs, you are never watching anything "live" anyway - the stream is always being buffered to disk before it's seen anyway.


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## Blaine

What format then does the DVR store the files in? This is a quote from another discussion group:

>Like JPG, MP3 is a slightly lossy format, meaning that the final sound is not >quite identical to the source. However, the degradation occurs in a very >controllable manner and so can easily be kept to a level below that >discernible to the listener. As with JPG, there is no loss when copying MP3 >files, only when creating them.

I have noticed that opening jpg often degrades the quality noticably. But with mp3 and mpeg I am not so sure.

Thanks for the information.



Mark Lamutt said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk Blain. :hi:
> 
> Where did you hear that each time you play back an MPEG file you lose quality? You may lose some quality if you reencode it, but not playing it back. It's digital, and playing the file doesn't alter it.
> 
> But, that's beside the point. Dish DVRs (and Directivos as well for that matter) store the satellite signal exactly as it is received, so there's zero difference between watching it "live" vs watching it later. In fact, with DVRs, you are never watching anything "live" anyway - the stream is always being buffered to disk before it's seen anyway.


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## garypen

Opening a JPG doesn't degrade the quality. _SAVING _ it as JPG is what does it.


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## HTguy

Blaine said:


> What format then does the DVR store the files in?


It's MPEG-2. Like Mark said, the feed is actually written to the hard drive as it comes in. It's up to you whether to save ("record") it. BTW, MPEG-2 is the same format that DVD video is stored in.


> Thanks for the information.


 You're welcome.


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## TomCat

So, the answer to the first question is yes, it is a lossy format. MPEG discards information during encoding. A non-lossy format does not discard information, so none is lost, but technically, any time you convert from analog to digital since you must sample you are losing information by definition, since you are only taking samples, and not directly representing every nuance of the original information. That means that all digital encoding is by definition lossy, but not in the conventional sense.


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## scooper

Yes - the DVR's ARE storing in a "lossy" format - MPEG2. Dish (and Direct for that matter) receive the original signal from the content providers, then they encode the material into MPEG2, then multiplex it with the other channels on the same transponder. This is then transmitted up to the satellite, then almost instantly re-trnasmitted back down to your dish and into your receiver.

With the DVR's, the stream is first wrote to the units harddrive, then re-read /decoded and that result sent to the a/v display circuitry.

So, yes it is lossy MPEG2, but it is the closest to state of the art you're going to find (much better quality encoders than you can buy for consumer grade equipment).


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## Blaine

Thanks for the information. Now when will Dish Network make it possible to transfer the MPEG2 as data to our computers? Is the expansion data port on the DVR going to offer that capacity in the future?



scooper said:


> Yes - the DVR's ARE storing in a "lossy" format - MPEG2. Dish (and Direct for that matter) receive the original signal from the content providers, then they encode the material into MPEG2, then multiplex it with the other channels on the same transponder. This is then transmitted up to the satellite, then almost instantly re-trnasmitted back down to your dish and into your receiver.
> 
> With the DVR's, the stream is first wrote to the units harddrive, then re-read /decoded and that result sent to the a/v display circuitry.
> 
> So, yes it is lossy MPEG2, but it is the closest to state of the art you're going to find (much better quality encoders than you can buy for consumer grade equipment).


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## Mark Lamutt

The answer to that currently is no. There is a difficult way of doing it, but that is beyond the scope (and the terms of use) of what we discuss here.


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## Guest

Blaine said:


> Thanks for the information. Now when will Dish Network make it possible to transfer the MPEG2 as data to our computers? Is the expansion data port on the DVR going to offer that capacity in the future?


My suspicion is that when you see pigs flying, snowballs being thrown across operating blast furnaces & Hell freezes over, then you'll be able to copy through the built-in hardware, your saved mpeg video unchanged, to your computer. 

Simnply put, dish most likely has in their contracts with the content providers that they can't enable that sort of functionality.

Given that it is so easy and cheap to just buy a standalone DVD recorder (Walmart $248 & up). 
Caveat/Warning: I use the $248 Cyberhome, However, I'm on my second one, first one lasted 10 days. I believe that heat destroyed it. It used to run very hot, the disks came out hot too. Second unit I pulled the case off, no security seals on the case, I'm hopeful that'll do the trick to let it work a long time.

That being said it does a nice job of capturing video from the PVR (Dishplayer/721/501, & Tivo) and VHS.

Menu's are very bad. No name, just date & time, every 5 minute auto chapter or not. So I take the DVD+RW disk to the computer, rip to the hard drive, reauthor and reburn on -R or +R format blanks.

Then I've saved a lot of time over capturing to the computer and converting to DVD ready format before authoring. Slighly less quality but when working from tape, that slight softening actually seems to improve the image.

Cheers


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## Blaine

Yes I know the difficult way. I feel capable of doing it since I have built 6 computers for my home use but its too much trouble and Murphy's Law seems to rule in this situation.

But please tell me what the parallel port is for on the back of the 510. It says that its for future expansion, what is Dish planning for the future?

I know a parallel port can carry a digital signal out, the parallel port is one of the oldest types of home computer ports that I know of.



Mark Lamutt said:


> The answer to that currently is no. There is a difficult way of doing it, but that is beyond the scope (and the terms of use) of what we discuss here.


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## Blaine

Can you record on DVR playback to the Cyberhome? What connection do you use, s-cable?



Roger T said:


> <SNIP>
> Given that it is so easy and cheap to just buy a standalone DVD recorder (Walmart $248 & up).
> Caveat/Warning: I use the $248 Cyberhome, However, I'm on my second one, first one lasted 10 days. I believe that heat destroyed it. It used to run very hot, the disks came out hot too. Second unit I pulled the case off, no security seals on the case, I'm hopeful that'll do the trick to let it work a long time.
> 
> That being said it does a nice job of capturing video from the PVR (Dishplayer/721/501, & Tivo) and VHS.
> 
> Cheers


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## Mark Lamutt

Very likely the expansion port will never be used for anything.


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## P Smith

Blaine said:


> Yes I know the difficult way. I feel capable of doing it since I have built 6 computers for my home use but its too much trouble and Murphy's Law seems to rule in this situation.
> 
> But please tell me what the parallel port is for on the back of the 510. It says that its for future expansion, what is Dish planning for the future?
> 
> I know a parallel port can carry a digital signal out, the parallel port is one of the oldest types of home computer ports that I know of.


I know one place where one bright person made some discovery on the port, but posting here a link to that site will obey local rules.


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## Mark Lamutt

You're welcome to post the link as long as it's not to a hacking site, or to the group on Yahoo that talks about transferring the content off.


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## P Smith

Unfortunatelly, it is. 

But if you dont mind - I' do the attacment now.


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## Blaine

Only an electrical engineer could read those schematics, but if thats an ide port instead of parallel then it looks like a port to add another drive.



P Smith said:


> Unfortunatelly, it is.
> 
> But if you dont mind - I' do the attacment now.


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## P Smith

Will be useful if Dish will publish a description of the interface ( btw, it's named "E*IDE" ), then other companies could begin selling external storage for the PVR.


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## Mark Lamutt

Never going to happen.


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## amit5roy5

With digital formats. You can play it over and over and teh quality won't change.


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## AppliedAggression

Mark, could I ask why you don't want the Yahoo Groups mentioned? I'd love Echostar if they released a device box that hooked up to that expansion port. I only glanced at those instructions but they're way beyond what I'm capable of. Any chance of seeing someone making a box that the user puts a drive in then connects to the expan. port?


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## William_K_F

My brother-in-law has a DirecTV unit and it does offer a mode whereby the quality is degraded when recording to the PVR. It offers this so the consumer can cram more content at lesser quality onto their TiVO unit. He had it enabled, and it drove me crazy as I didn't like the over compression artifacts in the picture resulting in low picture quality.


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## Mark Holtz

William_K_F said:


> My brother-in-law has a DirecTV unit and it does offer a mode whereby the quality is degraded when recording to the PVR. It offers this so the consumer can cram more content at lesser quality onto their TiVO unit. He had it enabled, and it drove me crazy as I didn't like the over compression artifacts in the picture resulting in low picture quality.


Are you sure it's not a standalone TiVo hooked up to the DirecTV receiver? The reason why I ask is that the DirecTV receiver is decoding the signal back to analog, then re-encoded to the TiVo, resulting in loss of quality.

Many of us have DirecTiVos, and there is *no* quality setting, but two tuners.


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## William_K_F

Perhaps, it didn't occur to me that he might not have an integrated unit, although since it had info on the recordings, I guess I assumed it was part of the receiver. I think we could switch seamlessly between recordings and live TV if I recall right.


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## Danny R

_Will be useful if Dish will publish a description of the interface ( btw, it's named "E*IDE" ), then other companies could begin selling external storage for the PVR._

Of course even if you knew exactly how the port worked and developed a device that used it, Dish would still need to change their software to enable the port so it was usable in the software.


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## kwajr

Blaine said:


> I heard that DVRs store recordings in the mpeg format? I know that each time you playback an mpeg file you loose a bit of quality each time. That is why always archive mp3 and mpeg files before playing them.


That is not correct evry time you convert to a diff format you lose bits not just playing them if that was teh case dvds would die quickly


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## kwajr

Mark Lamutt said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk Blain. :hi:
> 
> Where did you hear that each time you play back an MPEG file you lose quality? You may lose some quality if you reencode it, but not playing it back. It's digital, and playing the file doesn't alter it.
> 
> But, that's beside the point. Dish DVRs (and Directivos as well for that matter) store the satellite signal exactly as it is received, so there's zero difference between watching it "live" vs watching it later. In fact, with DVRs, you are never watching anything "live" anyway - the stream is always being buffered to disk before it's seen anyway.


but if you have a stand alone like replay or tivo then it has to be re encoded back so you lose


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## kwajr

cHECK OUT DISHRIP A YAHOO GROUP THEY HAVE DISH EXTRACT WHITCH WILL ALLOW YOU TO PULL IT OFF YOUR HD AND THEN BURN TO DVD OR WHAT EVR YOU WANT


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## kwajr

AppliedAggression said:


> Mark, could I ask why you don't want the Yahoo Groups mentioned? I'd love Echostar if they released a device box that hooked up to that expansion port. I only glanced at those instructions but they're way beyond what I'm capable of. Any chance of seeing someone making a box that the user puts a drive in then connects to the expan. port?


you could run an ide to firewire adapter and then connect it to yyour pc and use a program called dish rip whitch is on th eyahoo groups that we cant post here


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## sadunreadissue

Roger T said:


> My suspicion is that when you see pigs flying, snowballs being thrown across operating blast furnaces & Hell freezes over, then you'll be able to copy through the built-in hardware, your saved mpeg video unchanged, to your computer.
> 
> Simnply put, dish most likely has in their contracts with the content providers that they can't enable that sort of functionality.
> 
> Given that it is so easy and cheap to just buy a standalone DVD recorder (Walmart $248 & up).
> Caveat/Warning: I use the $248 Cyberhome, However, I'm on my second one, first one lasted 10 days. I believe that heat destroyed it. It used to run very hot, the disks came out hot too. Second unit I pulled the case off, no security seals on the case, I'm hopeful that'll do the trick to let it work a long time.
> 
> That being said it does a nice job of capturing video from the PVR (Dishplayer/721/501, & Tivo) and VHS.
> 
> Menu's are very bad. No name, just date & time, every 5 minute auto chapter or not. So I take the DVD+RW disk to the computer, rip to the hard drive, reauthor and reburn on -R or +R format blanks.
> 
> Then I've saved a lot of time over capturing to the computer and converting to DVD ready format before authoring. Slighly less quality but when working from tape, that slight softening actually seems to improve the image.
> 
> Cheers


Okay... based on your post (which made perfect sense to me), I ran out and purchased a DVD recorder.

Problem is, when I took it to my PC to "rip to the hard drive, reauthor and reburn on -R or +R format blanks", it was recorded in video_rm and video_ts files. Nothing mpeg that I could edit on my PC or Mac.

Can you give me some direction here? I called customer support for the DVD burner 4 times, and was pretty much told that only with "Sonic's 'My DVD' software" would I be able to open the disc up as an editable file.


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## Slordak

You're going to need to use some tools to convert the MPEG TS (Transport Stream) into an MPEG PS (Program Stream) or MPEG ES (Elementary Stream). Then, you'll need a separate tool to author this into a DVD-compatible format if you want these playable as real DVDs.

Probably need to do some research and/or reading


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## larrystotler

DISHRIP forum on Yahoo has the tools needed to convert the receiver's files to an MPEG2 format.


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## Guest

Slordak said:


> Probably need to do some research and/or reading


Yup. That's how I found this forum--researching and reading. Still not too clear on exactly what to read and where to research, besides the internet.


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## Guest

larrystotler said:


> DISHRIP forum on Yahoo has the tools needed to convert the receiver's files to an MPEG2 format.


Thanks for the suggestion. DishRip requires removing the PVR hard drive from the unit and installing it in your computer. While I do have the skills to do so, I don't think there's anything on my PVR that I want THAT badly.


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## larrystotler

Actually, you don't neccessarily have to remove it. You can just use a longer IDE and power cable. Done it a few times with my 721.


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## Guest

larrystotler said:


> Actually, you don't neccessarily have to remove it. You can just use a longer IDE and power cable. Done it a few times with my 721.


Thanks for the suggestion--I'll look in to it. However, I am a bit leery about the warnings that you might accidentally not only erase the hard disk's content with the program, but even the operating system for the unit.

Rather than take the risk, I kept researching as prompted above, and found a program to convert the TS to readable/editable mpeg. Problem is, it separated the sound from the video. Any suggestions as to a program to integrate the two easily and re-author a DVD? I am thinking of trying the "unmentionable" program from the Yahoo group.


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## scooper

Look into TMPEnc Plus.

www.dvdrhelp.com


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## JohnGfun

My Quality Is Fine.


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## Slordak

Most programs that actually author DVDs (i.e. create the VOB files) really prefer to start out with separate audio and video streams that get MUX'ed together during the authoring process. Hence, you're best bet probably is to start with these separate streams and directly author from there (rather than using TMPGEnc to join them).

Consider a program like DVD-Lab. It's somewhat forgiving of non-standard GOPs and resolutions, and works just fine with the separate streams.


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## scooper

I usually use the ULead DVD moviemaker SE that came with my DVD burner - generally feeding it edited raw MPEG2 files from my Hauppage WinPVR250 (edited with TMPEnc + )


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## Guest

scooper said:


> I usually use the ULead DVD moviemaker SE that came with my DVD burner - generally feeding it edited raw MPEG2 files from my Hauppage WinPVR250 (edited with TMPEnc + )


I like ULead. However, I don't think it will deal with the separate video and audio files.


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## scooper

I think it will - but I haven't had to mess with it. In any event, TMPEnc+ WILL deal with separate streams.


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## dirwin

I wish they would fix the 510. I live in Arizona where we do not change with Daylight Savings. We are GMT -7.
I set a bunch of shows to record from local stations, such as Extreme Home Makeover. It's always Sunday at 7PM. When DST changed, my box decided to record at 8PM.
Is there a hack to fix that?


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## scooper

Did you set your Zip code ?


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## P Smith

would you guys open a new thread and do not pollute this one !?


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