# cancellations fees if we don't agree to new Terms and conditions?



## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

So DirecTV updated their Terms and Agreement and it says I can refuse the new terms and they will cancel me.

In this case do cancellation fee apply? They changed the contract not me. They are cancelling me. Not me cancelling them?

Just curious....
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http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/conte...8WP&cmp=emc-rescus-cus-trans-en-privacyupdate

CUSTOMER AGREEMENT

Effective as of May 15, 2012, until replaced

THIS DESCRIBES THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF YOUR RECEIPT OF AND PAYMENT FOR DIRECTV® SERVICE AND IS SUBJECT TO ARBITRATION (SECTION 9) AND DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES (SECTION 8). IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THESE TERMS, PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY AND WE WILL CANCEL YOUR ORDER OR SERVICE. IF YOU INSTEAD DECIDE TO RECEIVE OUR SERVICE, IT WILL MEAN THAT YOU ACCEPT THESE TERMS AND THEY WILL BE LEGALLY BINDING. IF YOU OBTAINED RECEIVING EQUIPMENT DURING OR AFTER MARCH 2006, THE EQUIPMENT LEASE AGREEMENT, AVAILABLE AT DIRECTV.COM, GOVERNS YOUR RECEIPT, USE, AND RETURN OF EQUIPMENT.
TO VIEW BOTH AGREEMENTS IN SPANISH, VISIT DIRECTV.COM/ACUERDO OR CALL 1-888-388-6622 TO REQUEST A PRINTED COPY. (VISITE A DIRECTV.COM/ACUERDO O LLAME AL 1-888-388-6622 PARA SOLICITAR ESTE DOCUMENTO.)


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

frankygamer said:


> In this case do cancellation fee apply?


Yes, of course.



frankygamer said:


> They changed the contract not me. They are cancelling me. Not me cancelling them?


You would be the one choosing to cancel, not them. They're just changing their T's&C's, you're the one canceling.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

So they can change the terms to take my first born or raise cancellation fees and I just have to take it? 

I feel like I need a lawyer to deal with DirecTV anymore.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Yes, of course.
> 
> You would be the one choosing to cancel, not them. They're just changing their T's&C's, you're the one canceling.


I don't think it's that black and white. DirecTV reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of service at any time, with proper notification. For customers who are under contract with an ETF, what if new terms and conditions are onerous? Are their only options to suffer with the onerous terms and conditions or cancel and owe an ETF? I don't think so.


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## killi (Jun 26, 2007)

Section 5
(c) Our Cancellation. We may cancel your Service at any time if you fail to pay amounts owing to us when due, subject to any grace periods, breach any other material provision of this Agreement, or act abusively toward our staff. In such case, you will still be responsible for payment of all outstanding balances accrued through that effective date, including the deactivation fee described in Section 2.* In addition, we may cancel your Service if you elect not to accept any changed terms described to you, as provided in Section 4.*

Section 4, in pertinent part:
If you notify us that you do not accept such terms and conditions, then we may cancel your Service as provided in Section 5, as we cannot offer Service to different customers on different terms, among other reasons.

Deactivation fee in Section 2 is $15. There just might be something here


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

Can someone summarize the changes?

I don't have time right now.

Thanks.


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## killi (Jun 26, 2007)

frankygamer said:


> Can someone summarize the changes?
> 
> I don't have time right now.
> 
> Thanks.


from http://support.directv.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3837/kw/channel changes by itself

What has changed in the DIRECTV Customer Agreement?

Recently, we updated The DIRECTV Customer Agreement. This update will take effect on May 15, 2012.

The Customer Agreement outlines the terms and conditions of your DIRECTV Service. To make sure that the changes are clear we outlined some minor changes from the previous version.

Throughout the agreement the term "Receiver" has been replaced with 'box."
Section 1. Our Service: Information is provided for Ordering Pay Per View and using On Demand/DIRECTV Cinema, as well as using other authorized devices.
Section 2. Payment: New information has been added about promotional credits and the terms "mirroring" and "additional receiver" have been removed and replaced with "enabled TV's" or "additional boxes."
Section 3. Customer Information: New information has been added about account related text messaging.

To view The Customer Agreement in English or Spanish, visit http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/legal/customer_agreement.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

frankygamer said:


> So they can change the terms to take my first born or raise cancellation fees and I just have to take it?
> 
> I feel like I need a lawyer to deal with DirecTV anymore.


Taking your first born? Exaggerating a bit aren't we? 

What have they changed that has you so riled up?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

frankygamer said:


> Can someone summarize the changes?
> 
> I don't have time right now.
> 
> Thanks.


Wait, let me get this straight... You're all upset about changes but you don't know what those changes are? Unbelievable...


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

killi said:


> from http://support.directv.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3837/kw/channel changes by itself
> 
> What has changed in the DIRECTV Customer Agreement?
> 
> ...


So in a nutshell they've changed words they use to describe devices and services. Nothing to worry about...


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Taking your first born? Exaggerating a bit aren't we?
> 
> What have they changed that has you so riled up?


I don't think it's necessarely what they have changed, it's what they could change.

It's always nice to know your options.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

frankygamer said:


> So they can change the terms to take my first born or raise cancellation fees and I just have to take it?
> 
> I feel like I need a lawyer to deal with DirecTV anymore.


Not a lawyer, but here's what I've gathered over the years and from these forums.

You agreed in the initial agreement that they could modify the terms and conditions with proper notice. So, yes they can make any changes they want, and you have already agreed to accept them, or cancell and pay the penalty for canceling.

However, over the years the courts have limited companies from certain changes that they considered out of line. So, no, they could 't take your first born. 

If you really thought any terms of service changes were out of line, you'd probably have to take them to court to have the changes thrown out.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> I don't think it's necessarely what they have changed, it's what they could change.


I understand, but I really don't think they'd ever ask for your first born. I honestly don't think they'd ever ask for anything unreasonable at all. They never have.

As it turns out they just changed some of the words they use. By law they have to notify customers if anything in the T's&C's change, that includes spelling and grammer corrections too. Just because the T's&C's have changed doesn't mean that the actual agreement has changed.



dcandmc said:


> It's always nice to know your options.


Very true.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> I understand, but I really don't think they'd ever ask for your first born. I honestly don't think they'd ever ask for anything unreasonable at all. They never have.
> 
> As it turns out they just changed some of the words they use. By law they have to notify customers if anything in the T's&C's change, that includes spelling and grammer corrections too. Just because the T's&C's have changed doesn't mean that the actual agreement has changed.


"Reasonable" and "unreasonable" are subjective terms, so there's probably plenty of room for debate there. The OP was just engaging in some hyperbole to make a point. What if the $6 fee for each additional receiver was raised to $20? Would that be unreasonable? It's not out of line with what some cable companies charge. If you only have one receiver, it wouldn't mean anything to you. If you have two receivers, it's only an additional $14. But, if you have lots of receivers, it's a big increase. In my case, it would increase my bill by more than 50%. Then I would definitely be wondering if a change in terms and conditions meant that I could cancel without incurring an ETF.


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## bubbagumper6 (Aug 14, 2010)

Normally when you're under contract if they change the terms of the contract you should be given the opportunity to get out penalty free...


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> "Reasonable" and "unreasonable" are subjective terms, so there's probably plenty of room for debate there. The OP was just engaging in some hyperbole to make a point. What if the $6 fee for each additional receiver was raised to $20? Would that be unreasonable? It's not out of line with what some cable companies charge. If you only have one receiver, it wouldn't mean anything to you. If you have two receivers, it's only an additional $14. But, if you have lots of receivers, it's a big increase. In my case, it would increase my bill by more than 50%. Then I would definitely be wondering if a change in terms and conditions meant that I could cancel without incurring an ETF.


You're comparing Apples to Oranges here now. Raising the additional receiver fee from $6 to $20 is not a change in Terms & Conditions. It is a change in pricing model.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> You're comparing Apples to Oranges here now. Raising the additional receiver fee from $6 to $20 is not a change in Terms & Conditions. It is a change in pricing model.


I'm sure you get my point. There are plenty of hypotheticals that I could come up with that are based on the terms and conditions as opposed to the "pricing model," and whether they are "reasonable" changes or not would be easily debatable.

So... if in the future DirecTV makes an "onerous" change to the terms and conditions, and a customer who's under an ETF refuses the new terms and conditions thereby causing _DirecTV_ to cancel the service, is the ETF waived?


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

frankygamer said:


> So DirecTV updated their Terms and Agreement and it says I can refuse the new terms and they will cancel me.
> 
> In this case do cancellation fee apply? They changed the contract not me. They are cancelling me. Not me cancelling them?
> 
> ...


No, the ETF should not apply. Just say that you don't agree to the new terms. Don't say you want to cancel. D* will initiate the cancellation and you shouldn't pay an ETF. There's a cancellation fee of $15.

Now, D* will probably try to charge you the ETF anyway, but they're not supposed to. You can always contact your state's Attorney General if D* gives you a hard time.


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## cariera (Oct 27, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> No, the ETF should not apply. Just say that you don't agree to the new terms. Don't say you want to cancel. D* will initiate the cancellation and you shouldn't pay an ETF. There's a cancellation fee of $15.
> 
> Now, D* will probably try to charge you the ETF anyway, but they're not supposed to. You can always contact your state's Attorney General if D* gives you a hard time.


Where do you see that the ETF should or would not apply? It really doesn't matter who cancels, DirecTv or you - if you do not have service in place for the contract term you will be charged the prorated ETF.

The $15 is not a cancelation fee, it is a "deactivation fee" and it is "up to $15" and it appears to be more of an administrative or "because I can fee" and does not supplant the ETF.


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## newklngjames (May 10, 2012)

I am really interested to find out more about this. If someone happens to try this, please let us know the results.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> I'm sure you get my point.


No, not really since you're confusing Terms & Conditions with Pricing. Changing prices is not changing the Terms & Conditions.



dcandmc said:


> There are plenty of hypotheticals that I could come up with that are based on the terms and conditions as opposed to the "pricing model," and whether they are "reasonable" changes or not would be easily debatable.


Such as?



dcandmc said:


> So... if in the future DirecTV makes an "onerous" change to the terms and conditions, and a customer who's under an ETF refuses the new terms and conditions thereby causing _DirecTV_ to cancel the service, is the ETF waived?


Since the customer is the one terminating the contact, because they don't like the new Terms and Conditions, I don't see why the ETF should be waived. DirecTV isn't forcing people to cancel, they are choosing to cancel.


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## newklngjames (May 10, 2012)

(c) Our Cancellation ...you will still be responsible for payment of all outstanding balances accrued through that effective date,* including the deactivation fee* described in Section 2. In addition, we may cancel your Service if you elect not to accept any changed terms described to you, as provided in Section 4.

it really doesn't say that the etf will still apply. just says that you have to pay what owe and the deactivation fee..


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## newklngjames (May 10, 2012)

it wouldn't be that we are choosing to cancel, it would be that we do not accept the changes, and therefore they would cancel us per section 4 " we may cancel your Service as provided in Section 5, as we cannot offer Service to different customers on different terms, among other reasons." if they choose to cancel us, that is up to them. they are the ones that decided to change the t&c's


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> No, not really since you're confusing Terms & Conditions with Pricing. Changing prices is not changing the Terms & Conditions.


I'm sorry; apparently I was giving you more credit than I should have.



RunnerFL said:


> Such as?


Under "Your Programming Changes," the DirecTV user agreement says that "You may change your programming selection by notifying us. A fee may apply to such changes." Let's say that DirecTV changes this to "You may change your programming selection by notifying us by registered U.S. mail. A fee of $20, payable by certified check or money order, will apply to such changes." Reasonable? Maybe, maybe not. But I think that there would be a number of customers who would object to such a change.



RunnerFL said:


> Since the customer is the one terminating the contact, because they don't like the new Terms and Conditions, I don't see why the ETF should be waived. DirecTV isn't forcing people to cancel, they are choosing to cancel.


I don't think so. Read the Customer Agreement. It's clear that two types of cancellation are contemplated- "Your Cancellation" (meaning the customer) and "Our Cancellation" (meaning DirecTV). (Sections 5 (b) and (c)) The ETF is only mentioned in the "Your Cancellation" section. A customer's refusal to accept changed terms is listed as a reason for "Our Cancellation," with no mention of an ETF.


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## MarkG21 (Jan 4, 2010)

> Elements of Breach of Contract
> 
> If a party breaches a contract, here are the elements a plaintiff must establish to prevail on a breach of contract claim:
> 
> ...


I think it would be pretty hard to prove that DTV breached their end of the contract you signed.

#2 - immaterial breaches does not constitute a breach a contract. If you think today's modifications are material, your welcome to let the courts decide that for you. Good luck!!!

#6 - What damages are you sustaining in the change of terms? How has DirecTV hurt you (not physically)?


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

MarkG21 said:


> I think it would be pretty hard to prove that DTV breached their end of the contract you signed.
> 
> #2 - immaterial breaches does not constitute a breach a contract. If you think today's modifications are material, your welcome to let the courts decide that for you. Good luck!!!
> 
> #6 - What damages are you sustaining in the change of terms? How has DirecTV hurt you (not physically)?


Nobody is talking about breach of contract. The discussion is about what exactly the terms of the contract are; i.e. when an ETF does and does not apply. It really doesn't matter if any change in terms and conditions is reasonable or not. The user agreement clearly allows a customer to refuse to accept new terms and conditions, with the result that _DirecTV_ will cancel the service. There is no provision in the user agreement for the payment of an ETF if the cancelling party is DirecTV ("Our Cancellation").


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

newklngjames said:


> it wouldn't be that we are choosing to cancel, it would be that we do not accept the changes


No matter how you word it you're still making a choice, they aren't making it for you.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> I'm sorry; apparently I was giving you more credit than I should have.


I didn't attack you so there's no reason for you to attack/insult me.



dcandmc said:


> Under "Your Programming Changes," the DirecTV user agreement says that "You may change your programming selection by notifying us. A fee may apply to such changes." Let's say that DirecTV changes this to "You may change your programming selection by notifying us by registered U.S. mail. A fee of $20, payable by certified check or money order, will apply to such changes." Reasonable? Maybe, maybe not. But I think that there would be a number of customers who would object to such a change.


Besides the method of notification what's different? You still have to notify them and you still have a fee.



dcandmc said:


> I don't think so. Read the Customer Agreement. It's clear that two types of cancellation are contemplated- "Your Cancellation" (meaning the customer) and "Our Cancellation" (meaning DirecTV). (Sections 5 (b) and (c)) The ETF is only mentioned in the "Your Cancellation" section. A customer's refusal to accept changed terms is listed as a reason for "Our Cancellation," with no mention of an ETF.


Yes, there are 2 types of cancellation but they both stem from a choice the customer makes. They aren't holding a gun to your head forcing you to cancel. They are saying "it's our way or the highway" and you have a choice, their way or the highway but you're still making a choice.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

frankygamer said:


> Can someone summarize the changes?
> 
> I don't have time right now.
> 
> Thanks.


C'mon now....you're the one that's worried about the changes, I really think you'll need to take the time to do the research if its important to you.


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## markfp (Mar 9, 2010)

The OP posted this on the "other" board too. What I said there was that since he has to cancel *before* the new terms start, he is canceling under the old terms. The old terms specifies a penalty for canceling early, regardless of reason, so he has to pay.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

markfp said:


> The OP posted this on the "other" board too. What I said there was that since he has to cancel *before* the new terms start, he is canceling under the old terms. The old terms specifies a penalty for canceling early, regardless of reason, so he has to pay.


Good point!


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

markfp said:


> The OP posted this on the "other" board too. What I said there was that since he has to cancel *before* the new terms start, he is canceling under the old terms. The old terms specifies a penalty for canceling early, regardless of reason, so he has to pay.


I don't think he is the same person. One is from Iowa, one from NC.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Besides the method of notification what's different? You still have to notify them and you still have a fee.


Really? You asked for an example, I gave you one, and now you suggest that it's not different enough from the current user agreement?

At least you acknowledge that the method of notification is different (and much less convenient; don't skip that part). The current language says that a programming change fee "may" apply; my hypothetical says "will." And the hypothetical method of fee payment is also different than what is now accepted and less than convenient. I think it's safe to say that these would be fairly significant changes for those customers wanting to modify their programming. But feel free to ignore the obvious.



RunnerFL said:


> Yes, there are 2 types of cancellation but they both stem from a choice the customer makes. They aren't holding a gun to your head forcing you to cancel. They are saying "it's our way or the highway" and you have a choice, their way or the highway but you're still making a choice.


Right; let's just disregard that fact that cancellation for refusal to accept new terms and conditions is under the "Our Cancellation" section, and that an ETF is only mentioned in the section that covers cancellation by a customer.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> Really? You asked for an example, I gave you one, and now you suggest that it's not different enough from the current user agreement?


I didn't suggest anything, I asked a question. There's a big difference between the two.



dcandmc said:


> Right; let's just disregard that fact that cancellation for refusal to accept new terms and conditions is under the "Our Cancellation" section, and that an ETF is only mentioned in the section that covers cancellation by a customer.


Ok, last time... It's still a choice the customer makes regardless of which cancellation method is used. They aren't forcing you to do anything.


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## MarkG21 (Jan 4, 2010)

dcandmc said:


> Right; let's just disregard that fact that cancellation for refusal to accept new terms and conditions is under the "Our Cancellation" section, and that an ETF is only mentioned in the section that covers cancellation by a customer.


Your still bound by the lease agreement. The customer agreement and leased equipment agreement are separate. The ETF applies to the equipment.

By the way, this is the way I'm interpreting the agreements. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



> IF YOU OBTAINED RECEIVING EQUIPMENT DURING OR AFTER MARCH 2006, THE EQUIPMENT LEASE AGREEMENT, AVAILABLE AT DIRECTV.COM, GOVERNS YOUR RECEIPT, USE, AND RETURN OF EQUIPMENT.


http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/legal/customer_agreement?om_rid=AAFWBh&om_mid=_BPq3WDB8hwC8WP&om_u=AAFWBh&om_i=_BPq3WDB8hwC8WP&cmp=emc-rescus-cus-trans-en-privacyupdate



> THIS AGREEMENT TO MAINTAIN PROGRAMMING IS SEPARATE AND DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER YOU MAY HAVE MADE WITH DIRECTV AND IS FULLY ENFORCEABLE UNDER THESE TERMS.


http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/legal/equipment_lease_addendum


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> I didn't suggest anything, I asked a question. There's a big difference between the two.


Actually, they can be one and the same. Often times, a question asked also serves as a suggestion made, which is what you did. Would you like some examples? (On second thought, never mind.)



RunnerFL said:


> Ok, last time... It's still a choice the customer makes regardless of which cancellation method is used. They aren't forcing you to do anything.


I wouldn't call a customer's refusal to accept new terms and conditions and DirecTV's subsequent cancellation of service a "cancellation method." Yes, the customer has made a choice, but there's a difference betweem choosing to cancel service because you're sick of watching TV, and refusing to accept new terms and conditions that you may or may not find unreasonable. There may be a similarity in the end result for both choices (no more DirecTV service), but what's being discussed here is whether or not an ETF may apply to one choice and not the other.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Section 4 talks about what happens if you disagree with the new terms. It mentions section 5b, d, and e, but NOT c which is what should apply (not surprised). 

Section 5b is what happens when YOU cancel. It mentions the ETFs.

Section 5c is what happens when THEY decide to cancel. You owe previous balances, but 5c does not mention ETFs. It also mentions that this is what applies when D* cancels because you disapprove of the new TOS (somebody should tell that to whomever wrote section 4).

The lease agreement, a separate agreement, has the ETF. It requires you to maintain a base level of programming to avoid the ETF. If you are willing to maintain it but D* now refuses to offer it to you, how can they turn around and charge the ETF? They legally can't.

D* is arguing that canceling service and refusing the new TOS they changed are the same thing. They legally are not. D* can always provide you service under the old TOS. If they choose not to, then THEY are the ones breaking the contract and YOU don't have to pay them for THEIR problems.

However, good luck getting D* to agree to any of this. They didn't get an F rating from the BBB for nothing.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

I'm sorry I could not research the changes myself. My niece graduates tonight 6 hours away. I'm at a rest stop now o on the Iowa/Missouri border. 

I was just asking the question that I have 5 days to understand. I've had the 'you signed this contract' before speech and just wondered what not agreeing to the new terms meant.

i'm just trying to understand the contract which I have been too trusting of DirecTV in the past. Also the economy is tough, so i've been considering canceling regardless.

sorry if I ruffled anyones feathers.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

The end result is if someone chose to cancel over the new T&C any cancelation fee would be applicable to the customer based on the term left.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Personally, I believe all major companies and businesses these days have terms of service and agreements that are so heavily one-sided as to be absurd. We, as consumers, have little choice. Pretty much take it or leave it - and if we choose to leave it there are no viable options without equally onerous terms and conditions applicable to them.

Having said that, I remain a DirecTV subscriber. I doubt changes to their terms and conditions will cause that to change. Continued rising prices could, as I am retired and my income does not increase proportional to the rising costs of life around me.

As to whether or not a customer would be subject to early termination fees should they elect to cancel service due to a change in terms and conditions, I believe the answer is yes. But I don't expect I will become the test case going into arbitration over the point.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

If you do not agree to the new terms, DIRECTV® may elect to cancel your service. If they do so, a good case can be made that you do not owe ETF fees. 

A couple of folks here—not lawyers— strongly feel the opposite. No one can be certain of the outcome, should it be litigated. 

Thh-thhhh-thhhaaa thhhaaaaa That's all, folks!


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

carl6 said:


> Personally, I believe all major companies and businesses these days have terms of service and agreements that are so heavily one-sided as to be absurd. We, as consumers, have little choice. Pretty much take it or leave it - and if we choose to leave it there are no viable options without equally onerous terms and conditions applicable to them.
> 
> Having said that, I remain a DirecTV subscriber. I doubt changes to their terms and conditions will cause that to change. Continued rising prices could, as I am retired and my income does not increase proportional to the rising costs of life around me.
> 
> As to whether or not a customer would be subject to early termination fees should they elect to cancel service due to a change in terms and conditions, I believe the answer is yes. But I don't expect I will become the test case going into arbitration over the point.


Of course they are it's the companies terms and conditions for doing business with them. They're there for the sole purpose of protecting the company from any forseeable situation which could inflict damage on the company either publicly or monetarily.

The whole reason for this change was to make RVU clients relevant in the agreement and update information regarding internet connected devices along with those services, and a billing update.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

If one can't cancel without penalty for a rate increase why would one think they could cancel without penalty for a T&C change?

If they wanted they could double the $6 lease/mirror/add'l receiver fee and you're still stuck with your contract.

I don't even think you could sue them because I believe you also have signed away those rights. IIRC you are limited to mediation.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

Shades228 said:


> The end result is if someone chose to cancel over the new T&C any cancelation fee would be applicable to the customer based on the term left.


As with so many things legal, it's a matter of semantics. If a customer called DirecTV and said "I want to cancel because I don't like the new terms of service," DirecTv would say "fine; you want to cancel, you owe us an ETF if you're under contract."

If, on the other hand, the customer notified DirecTV that he/she refused to accept the new terms of service, DirecTV would initiate the cancellation and no ETF would be owed.

Anyway, that's how I read it. Others obviously disagree.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

TBlazer07 said:


> If one can't cancel without penalty for a rate increase why would one think they could cancel without penalty for a T&C change?
> 
> If they wanted they could double the $6 lease/mirror/add'l receiver fee and you're still stuck with your contract.
> 
> I don't even think you could sue them because I believe you also have signed away those rights. IIRC you are limited to mediation.


Arbitration.

And, according to some here, you shouldn't confuse DirecTV's terms and conditions with its pricing model.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"markfp" said:


> The OP posted this on the "other" board too. What I said there was that since he has to cancel before the new terms start, he is canceling under the old terms. The old terms specifies a penalty for canceling early, regardless of reason, so he has to pay.


I didn't post on another board fwiw. Anyway, why would I cancel on the current terms? I would continue my agreement on the current terms. Then when DirecTV changes the terms I didn't agree too, they cancel me.

Also my understanding is i'm supposed to review the contract as a new document. Not a addendum. So I could change my mind on something that didn't change. I could pull a Obama and evolve my position.

Anyway i'm glad others interpret the contract differently and its just not me. I'm pretty sure DirecTV s lawyers are way smarter then me and this isn't a free cancel pass. With that said, why even send it out to review if there is little reason to disagree and get canceled. Sounds like we can be canceled at anytime and still have to pay the termination fee.


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## wahooq (Oct 19, 2011)

Oh my


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"RunnerFL" said:


> I understand, but I really don't think they'd ever ask for your first born. I honestly don't think they'd ever ask for anything unreasonable at all. They never have.
> 
> As it turns out they just changed some of the words they use. By law they have to notify customers if anything in the T's&C's change, that includes spelling and grammer corrections too. Just because the T's&C's have changed doesn't mean that the actual agreement has changed.
> 
> Very true.


I think it's unreasonable to take cancellation fees out of a persons banking account without a invoice. Also I think it's unreasonable to take unreturned equipment fees out of a persons bank account without notice. **** happens, things get lost, people lose
Jobs.this goes for both sides. Instead of lawyers and collection agencies, make an extra phone call before screwing up someones life.

this is allowed in the contract and don't find it reasonable. after hearing and reading stories like this, I don't trust them to be reasonable.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

dcandmc said:


> Arbitration.
> 
> And, according to some here, you shouldn't confuse DirecTV's terms and conditions with its pricing model.


 Yea, my Alzheimer's caught me on that one. :sure: Couldn't think of that word for anything. Call it what you want, in either case, you're stuck.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> If one can't cancel without penalty for a rate increase why would one think they could cancel without penalty for a T&C change?
> 
> If they wanted they could double the $6 lease/mirror/add'l receiver fee and you're still stuck with your contract.
> 
> I don't even think you could sue them because I believe you also have signed away those rights. IIRC you are limited to mediation.


When in contract they cannot and will not raise your prices. When under contract they may raise the prices but you will see a credit for the difference in what you are under contract for after your contract you will go to the new rate. If you cancel for not accepting the new terms you WILL be on the hook for the etf.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

west99999 said:


> When in contract they cannot and will not raise your prices. When under contract they may raise the prices but you will see a credit for the difference in what you are under contract for after your contract you will go to the new rate. If you cancel for not accepting the new terms you WILL be on the hook for the etf.


This is not factual sorry.


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## bixler (Oct 14, 2008)

west99999 said:


> When in contract they cannot and will not raise your prices. When under contract they may raise the prices but you will see a credit for the difference in what you are under contract for after your contract you will go to the new rate. If you cancel for not accepting the new terms you WILL be on the hook for the etf.


This is not true.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> This is not factual sorry.


Ha what part? I could show you multiple bills with credits for "misc adjustments" after each price increase over the past 11 years none of these credits were asked for they were automatically added. I also worked in a DTV call center for nearly 3 years from 2001 to 2004 and this for sure the policy then after each price increase credits were automatically applied to anyone under contract.

Also DTV website states about price increases - Please note: Our price adjustments affect only our regular, non-promotional rates. If you're currently paying a promotional price for your DIRECTV base package, you will continue to pay this price for the remainder of your promotional period.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Well I better call and get all my past credits. Starting with the price increase that went into effect this past Feb, because I'm not getting and have never received credits when the prices went up and I was under contract.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

trh said:


> Well I better call and get all my past credits. Starting with the price increase that went into effect this past Feb, because I'm not getting and have never received credits when the prices went up and I was under contract.


Maybe I should have worded my post a bit different because you can be under contract and have a price increase but if your contract states you will pay 29.99 for 12 months and then 34.99 for the remaining 12 months and they have a price increase they will not bump you to the new price until after your promo ends because that was the original contract. If you are under contract but no promo cost base and they have a price increase then you will get raised that way.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

west99999 said:


> When in contract they cannot and will not raise your prices. When under contract they may raise the prices but you will see a credit for the difference in what you are under contract for after your contract you will go to the new rate. If you cancel for not accepting the new terms you WILL be on the hook for the etf.


 Don't you mean under INITIAL 2YR CONTRACT not just "under contract?" If I add a receiver 3 years down the road and they hit me with a 2yr contract I'm pretty sure they can raise my rate. If they can't the answer would be to keep adding a receiver every 23 months so you are always under contract. 

I'm also not sure if they "CAN'T" or just don't.

Edit: I just saw your "retraction." Yes, that makes sense but is a lot different than what you originally wrote.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

west99999 said:


> If you cancel for not accepting the new terms you WILL be on the hook for the etf.


Agreed; if you call to cancel and you are subject to an ETF, you will likely be charged for the ETF. However, if the terms and conditions change and you notify DirecTV that you do not accept the new terms and conditions, then DirecTV will initiate the cancellation. This is how section 4 of the Customer Agreement is worded. And under section 5 (c) of the Customer Agreement, when DirecTV initiates the cancellation, there is no mention of an ETF. This is in contrast to section 5 (b) which covers customer initiated cancellations and specifically says that an ETF may apply.


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## bixler (Oct 14, 2008)

west99999 said:


> Maybe I should have worded my post a bit different because you can be under contract and have a price increase but if your contract states you will pay 29.99 for 12 months and then 34.99 for the remaining 12 months and they have a price increase they will not bump you to the new price until after your promo ends because that was the original contract. If you are under contract but no promo cost base and they have a price increase then you will get raised that way.


Yes, now this is correct. promotional pricing and being under contract can be two different things


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

frankygamer said:


> I think it's unreasonable to take cancellation fees out of a persons banking account without a invoice. Also I think it's unreasonable to take unreturned equipment fees out of a persons bank account without notice. **** happens, things get lost, people lose
> Jobs.this goes for both sides. Instead of lawyers and collection agencies, make an extra phone call before screwing up someones life.
> 
> this is allowed in the contract and don't find it reasonable. after hearing and reading stories like this, I don't trust them to be reasonable.


If a person signs up for Auto-Pay they are allowing DirecTV to automatically take payments, that's what Auto-Pay is. You know what it is before you get into it.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

west99999 said:


> Ha what part? I could show you multiple bills with credits for "misc adjustments" after each price increase over the past 11 years none of these credits were asked for they were automatically added.


How did you keep getting promotional pricing for 11 years?


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

But it doesn't take auto payments to be set up to do it.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

dpeters11 said:


> But it doesn't take auto payments to be set up to do it.


Right. Under the terms of service, a valid credit or debit card is supposed to be kept on file with DirecTV, even if autopay has not been authorized. DirecTV _will_ charge the card to cover an ETF or for "unreturned" equipment.


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## sdirv (Dec 14, 2008)

dcandmc said:


> Right. Under the terms of service, a valid credit or debit card is supposed to be kept on file with DirecTV, even if autopay has not been authorized. DirecTV _will_ charge the card to cover an ETF or for "unreturned" equipment.


Every time I log onto the D* website I see a blurb (which I ignore) about updating my credit card info.....

I've never paid my D* bill directly to D*, my account is piggybacked to my phone/internet billing through the phone company. It's always been like this.

I'm pretty sure though that if I bail on a contract, or fail to return hardware...the charges will show up in my freaking phone bill.....

And although some of my equipment is hooked up to the internet with my whole home system......I've got a couple sd receivers that aren't hooked to phone lines or internet too....;-)


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

west99999 said:


> Ha what part? I could show you multiple bills with credits for "misc adjustments" after each price increase over the past 11 years none of these credits were asked for they were automatically added. I also worked in a DTV call center for nearly 3 years from 2001 to 2004 and this for sure the policy then after each price increase credits were automatically applied to anyone under contract.
> 
> Also DTV website states about price increases - Please note: Our price adjustments affect only our regular, non-promotional rates. If you're currently paying a promotional price for your DIRECTV base package, you will continue to pay this price for the remainder of your promotional period.


Respectfully a lot can change in 8 years and in the 3 years you worked for DIRECTV I'm sure you can appreciate that considering how much changed just during that time frame.



west99999 said:


> Maybe I should have worded my post a bit different because you can be under contract and have a price increase but if your contract states you will pay 29.99 for 12 months and then 34.99 for the remaining 12 months and they have a price increase they will not bump you to the new price until after your promo ends because that was the original contract. If you are under contract but no promo cost base and they have a price increase then you will get raised that way.


This is closer but still not entirely accurate. The price guarantee is based on the base package, originally signed up for, only. So if you signed up for a package that went up $1 you would get a $1 credit but if you had changed to a package that went up $5 you would still just get $1. There can be price increases in other people's services that are not guaranteed as well with that promotion.

However this still has nothing to do with the T&C as this is programming which is only discussed to give DIRECTV the right to change things as they deem necessary.


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## FLWingNut (Nov 19, 2005)

"dcandmc" said:


> Right. Under the terms of service, a valid credit or debit card is supposed to be kept on file with DirecTV, even if autopay has not been authorized. DirecTV will charge the card to cover an ETF or for "unreturned" equipment.


 I've been with Directv since 1998 and have never had a credit or debit card on file with them. I've never been asked to, either. I've also never missed a payment with them, if that makes any difference.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> Right. Under the terms of service, a valid credit or debit card is supposed to be kept on file with DirecTV, even if autopay has not been authorized. DirecTV _will_ charge the card to cover an ETF or for "unreturned" equipment.


Incorrect... I've never had a debit or credit card on file with them.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"RunnerFL" said:


> If a person signs up for Auto-Pay they are allowing DirecTV to automatically take payments, that's what Auto-Pay is. You know what it is before you get into it.


I completely understand the legal/contract side but saying everyone knows this for ETF and unreturned equipment is a stretch. Anyway Its the handling of that agreement that irritates me. The ethical and customer service side. Why can't DirecTV make a call, send a bill, or make it a critical point at cancellation. remind people and double check.

I've read people having $2K pulled from their account because DirecTV lost the hw. The person had a Ups tracking number with confirmed delivery.

I've read an elderly woman on a fix income get blindsided and had no money for rent.

Another women never got the return boxes because DirecTV sent them to the wrong address. Guess what, they wiped her account to.

Legal yes. ethical and #1 customer service? No way.

I understand this is the only way to get some people to pay.but there's a lot a innocent people getting screwed by this.


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## mitchflorida (May 18, 2009)

I called dtv and they said there is still a cancellation fee if you don't agree with the new terms and conditions. If there is a specific problem you have with the t&c , they will work with you to defray any extra costs.

So this whole thread has been basically a waste of time.


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## adkinsjm (Mar 25, 2003)

Sue if you not want to pay the ETF. DirecTV will interpret the contract Its own way,


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

frankygamer said:


> I completely understand the legal/contract side but saying everyone knows this for ETF and unreturned equipment is a stretch. Anyway Its the handling of that agreement that irritates me. The ethical and customer service side. Why can't DirecTV make a call, send a bill, or make it a critical point at cancellation. remind people and double check.
> 
> I've read people having $2K pulled from their account because DirecTV lost the hw. The person had a Ups tracking number with confirmed delivery.
> 
> ...


When people sign a auto pay agreement they are agreeing to the terms of the service provide. These terms are always in favor of the service provider, not the customer. When you sign a auto pay agreement you are allowing a provider to collect payment before any dispute is settled. Legal, yes. ethical, no, but the customer agreed to it.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

frankygamer said:


> I completely understand the legal/contract side but saying everyone knows this for ETF and unreturned equipment is a stretch.


When you sign up you're told it can be used for that. The customer, if they read what they agree too, is fully aware.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Incorrect... I've never had a debit or credit card on file with them.


I didn't say that you've ever had a credit or debit card on file with DirecTV; I said that having a credit or debit card on file with DirecTV is required under the terms of the Customer Agreement. Here, read it for yourself:

DirecTV Customer Agreement
Section 5 (e)

Payment Upon Cancellation. You acknowledge that you have provided your credit or debit card account information to us. You understand that you will incur fees and charges as a result of your receipt and use of Service and/or Receiving Equipment, and may incur early cancellation fees and/or equipment non-return fees (as specified in any lease, programming or other service commitment agreement you entered into in connection with obtaining Receiving Equipment). By giving us your credit or debit card account information at any time, you authorize us to apply this method of payment, in accordance with applicable law, to satisfy any and all amounts due upon cancellation. *You further acknowledge that you are required to maintain current credit or debit card information with us and agree to notify us whenever there is a change in such information, such as a change in the card number or the expiration date.* (emphasis added)


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"RunnerFL" said:


> When you sign up you're told it can be used for that. The customer, if they read what they agree too, is fully aware.


some people signed that contract a long time ago. Maybe even before this clause was put in.

Regardless I never said it was illegal. I just DirecTV could handle these things better. Remind the customer. Make a call. Leave a voicemail. Make sure there is no confusion. Why is this so hard? Why do people in the 'its in the contract' crowd refuse to admit DirecTV could do better here. What if it was your relative or friend? Would you just say tough, it was in the contract? if they did return the equipment and it got lost, your fine DirecTV just assumes you kept it and screws a persons finances up?


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

mitchflorida said:


> I called dtv and they said there is still a cancellation fee if you don't agree with the new terms and conditions. If there is a specific problem you have with the t&c , they will work with you to defray any extra costs.
> 
> So this whole thread has been basically a waste of time.


[sarcasm]Yeah, because we all know that whenever we call DirecTV to get some information or to get a question answered, we always get a 100% accurate answer.[/sarcasm]

Of course that's what you're going to be told if you just call up and ask that question. But it doesn't matter what a frontline CSR tells you on the phone, what matters is what the words of the Customer Agreement and Lease Addendum say.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"mitchflorida" said:


> I called dtv and they said there is still a cancellation fee if you don't agree with the new terms and conditions. If there is a specific problem you have with the t&c , they will work with you to defray any extra costs.
> 
> So this whole thread has been basically a waste of time.


if it was a waste of time, why did it peak your interest enough to call about it, lol.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"adkinsjm" said:


> Sue if you not want to pay the ETF. DirecTV will interpret the contract Its own way,


isn't that the point of a contract? To minimize interpretations.

sorry my question bothered you.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

dcandmc said:


> I didn't say that you've ever had a credit or debit card on file with DirecTV; I said that having a credit or debit card on file with DirecTV is required under the terms of the Customer Agreement. Here, read if for yourself:
> 
> DirecTV Customer Agreement
> Section 5 (e)
> ...


Yes, and the key word in the highlighted part of your post is "acknowledge". Again, the customer is agreeing.


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## wahooq (Oct 19, 2011)

> So this whole thread has been basically a waste of time.


+1,000..... If one doesn't agree with the terms and conditions then seek another provider. Not sure what a 77 count post is going to accomplish, it certainly won't change anything. I didn't like the way my bank started doing things so I opened an account at a different bank.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> I didn't say that you've ever had a credit or debit card on file with DirecTV


No, but you said it was required. I'm telling you it's not. If it were required they would have made me put one on file by now.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

frankygamer said:


> some people signed that contract a long time ago. Maybe even before this clause was put in.


You should know, as the starter of this thread, that when changes are made emails are sent out. That's the whole reason you created this thread isn't it? You got an email saying the Terms & Conditions were changed.



frankygamer said:


> Regardless I never said it was illegal.


And just where did I say that you said it was illegal??? I didn't!



frankygamer said:


> I just DirecTV could handle these things better. Remind the customer. Make a call. Leave a voicemail. Make sure there is no confusion. Why is this so hard?


Again, isn't that the reason you started this thread? Because you were contacted by DirecTV regarding changes to the Terms & Conditions??



frankygamer said:


> Why do people in the 'its in the contract' crowd refuse to admit DirecTV could do better here. What if it was your relative or friend? Would you just say tough, it was in the contract? if they did return the equipment and it got lost, your fine DirecTV just assumes you kept it and screws a persons finances up?


DirecTV doesn't screw up people's finances, careless people screw up their own finances.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

You don't have to explicitly keep a CC "on file" however if you ever paid with a credit or debit card (even if it isn't visibly stored on your account page) they can and will attempt use that which is why I never use a debit card. I have actually seen that happen a number of times plus it is stated in their "agreement" quoted a couple messages back:

_*"By giving us your credit or debit card account information at any time*, you authorize us to apply this method of payment, in accordance with applicable law, to satisfy any and all amounts due upon cancellation....."_

Also, for those who keep saying "if you don't like it sue them" you can't. Also per the user agreement. Arbitration only.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

wahooq said:


> +1,000..... If one doesn't agree with the terms and conditions then seek another provider. Not sure what a 77 count post is going to accomplish, it certainly won't change anything. I didn't like the way my bank started doing things so I opened an account at a different bank.


Ditto...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bobcamp1 said:


> Just say that you don't agree to the new terms. Don't say you want to cancel.


Your statement that you don't agree comes solely in the form of a cancellation. You have to read the whole paragraph as a unit.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

frankygamer said:


> isn't that the point of a contract? To minimize interpretations.


Such is not the case with DIRECTV's T&Cs of late. Lots of use of the word "may" and less connecting the dots for the consumer's benefit.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> No, but you said it was required. I'm telling you it's not. If it were required they would have made me put one on file by now.


[Facepalm]

Yes, that would be the word "required" in the text that was bolded. As in, "*you are required to maintain current credit or debit card information with us...*"

As you can tell from reading previous posts in this thread, other DirecTV customers also do not have a credit or debit card on file, and apparently DirecTV has not "made" them do so. Just because DirecTV has not "made" you put a credit or debit card on file does not mean that the requirement to do so is not part of the Customer Agreement (which, by the way, you are in violation of by your own admission). Come on, dude... it's right there in black and white.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> No, but you said it was required. I'm telling you it's not. If it were required they would have made me put one on file by now.


Actually, it is required. (Link)

_2. PAYMENT
In return for receiving our Service, you promise to pay us as follows:

(a) Programming. You will pay in advance, at our rates in effect at the time for all Service ordered by you or anyone who uses your Receiving Equipment or Authorized Device, with or without your permission, until the Service is canceled. If the Service is part of an offer through which you receive credits offsetting all or part of the Service price, such credits are also paid in advance. If you cancel the Service, you are no longer entitled to receive the credits and we reserve the right to recoup pre-paid credits. The outstanding balance is due in full each month. *To establish service, you were required to provide a credit card.* You may use this or another credit or debit card to establish recurring payments. See Section 5(e) regarding payment upon cancellation. We may, in our discretion, accept partial payments, which will be applied to the oldest outstanding statement. No "payment in full" notation or other restrictive endorsement written on your payments will restrict our ability to collect all amounts owing to us. We may reduce your Service to a minimum service level, at our rates in effect at the time, or deactivate your Service if you do not pay your statements on time, after any applicable grace period.

...

5. CANCELLATION

...

(e) Payment Upon Cancellation. You acknowledge that you have provided your credit or debit card account information to us. You understand that you will incur fees and charges as a result of your receipt and use of Service and/or Receiving Equipment, and may incur early cancellation fees and/or equipment non-return fees (as specified in any lease, programming or other service commitment agreement you entered into in connection with obtaining Receiving Equipment). By giving us your credit or debit card account information at any time, you authorize us to apply this method of payment, in accordance with applicable law, to satisfy any and all amounts due upon cancellation. *You further acknowledge that you are required to maintain current credit or debit card information with us and agree to notify us whenever there is a change in such information*, such as a change in the card number or the expiration date. _​I don't know if this means they'll start asking existing members to update that info, but it is required.

Mike


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

wahooq said:


> +1,000..... If one doesn't agree with the terms and conditions then seek another provider. Not sure what a 77 count post is going to accomplish, it certainly won't change anything. I didn't like the way my bank started doing things so I opened an account at a different bank.


The thread was started because the OP was wondering whether or not a cancellation, initiated by DirecTV because of a subscriber's refusal of new terms and conditions, would lead to the imposition of an ETF. It's a debatable question. That's what the discussion has primarily been about, not about whether or not anyone agrees or disagress with any particular term or condition of service. The first post in the thread might serve as a nice refresher.

Obviously any subscriber is free to discontinue service at any time and find another provider (or not). I've been a continuous DirecTV subscriber for more than 15 years; I wouldn't still be with them if I felt that there was a better option for me. Do I like everything that the company does? No, and when I disagree with something they do, I don't have a problem with saying so. I have to shake my head :nono: at certain members of this forum who will defend DirecTV at any chance, over any perceived slight, whenever something even slightly negative is posted here. Folks, you don't have to do that. The validity of your choice to be a DirecTV subscriber does not depend on someone else's experience; it's all about whether being a DirecTV subscriber makes the most sense for you.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

harsh said:


> Your statement that you don't agree comes solely in the form of a cancellation. You have to read the whole paragraph as a unit.


Wrong. According to section 4 of the Customer Agreement:

"If you notify us that you do not accept such terms and conditions, then we may cancel your Service as provided in Section 5, as we cannot offer Service to different customers on different terms, among other reasons."

So while you can simply cancel if you disagree with new terms and conditions, you also have the option of informing DirecTV that you do not accept the new terms, and then DirecTV may initiate the cancellation. It's two different things with likely the same outcome, although whether or not any applicable ETF is assessed in both cases is the question that kicked off this thread.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"wahooq" said:


> +1,000..... If one doesn't agree with the terms and conditions then seek another provider. Not sure what a 77 count post is going to accomplish, it certainly won't change anything. I didn't like the way my bank started doing things so I opened an account at a different bank.


Touchy touchy. Say one bad thing, report one bad experienced, ask what should be a simple question and the 'DirecTV can do no wrong' contingent tries to say anything to discredit the poster. It can never be an issue with DirecTV. They are perfect, lol.

What's funny is i'm in general happy with DirecTV. Had them a long time. While there had been a couple decisions I didn't like, overall their product is great. It just bothers me what I've read and been told by friends about some of the issues I've mentioned. It makes me question what may happen to me should the day come I have to leave. Also if I want to do business with a company like this. just my opinion and thoughts. I thought this was what forums were for. Nobody made you click on the link once much less several times.

No company is perfect. Even DirecTV.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Personally I think that you could not accept the new terms and not have to pay the ETF if you had one. But I al
so think that you'd have to go to court to do it, and if you did, I think you'd win. Of course, it would cost more than the max of $480 ETF to win! 

For me, I didn't see anything in the new terms of service to get up tight about.

And for the response of D* not messing up someones finances, well hogwash. They have charged for non-return of equipment even when it actually was returned. And of course, they have charged that when it didn't get back in their timeframe even though D* was the one that picked the worst way to send a trackable item back to them. In general they do end up getting your money back to you, but at D*'s own sweet time! We've all seen posts talking about those very things more than once. Fortunately it isn't an everyday occurence.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"RunnerFL" said:


> You should know, as the starter of this thread, that when changes are made emails are sent out. That's the whole reason you created this thread isn't it? You got an email saying the Terms & Conditions were changed.
> 
> And just where did I say that you said it was illegal??? I didn't!
> 
> ...


So if DirecTV misplaces 4 returned DVRs and someone gets $2000 pulled from their account, its the customers fault. Yeah right. Keep drinking the DirecTV kool aid. you just make yourself less creditable implying DirecTV is perfect.

May I ask how long you have worked and/or had service with them?


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## wahooq (Oct 19, 2011)

> Touchy touchy. Say one bad thing, report one bad experienced, ask what should be a simple question and the 'DirecTV can do no wrong' contingent tries to say anything to discredit the poster. It can never be an issue with DirecTV. They are perfect, lol.


I fail to see anywhere in what i posted that could be taken as touchy, or defending DTV, or saying anything derogatory towards you. I was merely saying it's all water off a ducks back, in my life if I dislike something I leave it. The T and C has changed very little, verbiage was added to encompass all the new technology. The general principles remain the same. I fail to see the issues with it thats all.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"wahooq" said:


> I fail to see anywhere in what i posted that could be taken as touchy, or defending DTV, or saying anything derogatory towards you. I was merely saying it's all water off a ducks back, in my life if I dislike something I leave it. The T and C has changed very little, verbiage was added to encompass all the new technology. The general principles remain the same. I fail to see the issues with it thats all.


Well take your own advise then and leave it (this thread that is). not everyone has money laying around like you must have. Also I would say the post and view counts just illustrates the issue more.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

"dcandmc" said:


> The thread was started because the OP was wondering whether or not a cancellation, initiated by DirecTV because of a subscriber's refusal of new terms and conditions, would lead to the imposition of an ETF. It's a debatable question. That's what the discussion has primarily been about, not about whether or not anyone agrees or disagress with any particular term or condition of service. The first post in the thread might serve as a nice refresher.
> 
> Obviously any subscriber is free to discontinue service at any time and find another provider (or not). I've been a continuous DirecTV subscriber for more than 15 years; I wouldn't still be with them if I felt that there was a better option for me. Do I like everything that the company does? No, and when I disagree with something they do, I don't have a problem with saying so. I have to shake my head :nono: at certain members of this forum who will defend DirecTV at any chance, over any perceived slight, whenever something even slightly negative is posted here. Folks, you don't have to do that. The validity of your choice to be a DirecTV subscriber does not depend on someone else's experience; it's all about whether being a DirecTV subscriber makes the most sense for you.


Well said


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> For me, I didn't see anything in the new terms of service to get up tight about.


It's not always about what the changes are. This is used with cell phone companies, even small changes can get you out of a contract. The customer doesn't actually necessarily care what the change is, it's an exit.


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## frankygamer (Jul 1, 2006)

So, in the end the issue seems debatable but not worth the time or money to fight DirecTV.

Also that the sending out of the new terms is more of a formality then of any real use.

Thanks all for the insight and opinions.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

frankygamer said:


> So if DirecTV misplaces 4 returned DVRs and someone gets $2000 pulled from their account, its the customers fault.


I never said that!



frankygamer said:


> Yeah right. Keep drinking the DirecTV kool aid. you just make yourself less creditable implying DirecTV is perfect.


I didn't say that either! Either quit putting words in my mouth or just stop replying to my posts.



frankygamer said:


> May I ask how long you have worked and/or had service with them?


I have never worked for DirecTV. I've been a customer of theirs for 12 years.


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## wahooq (Oct 19, 2011)

> Well take your own advise then and leave it (this thread that is). not everyone has money laying around like you must have. Also I would say the post and view counts just illustrates the issue more.


Haha easy big fella...no need to get riled up. And I have 4 teenagers (3 of them boys), so ALL my money goes to the grocery store


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

harsh said:


> Such is not the case with DIRECTV's T&Cs of late. Lots of use of the word "may" and less connecting the dots for the consumer's benefit.


Every company uses may. How much does DISH state may charge for an access card in their T&C.

May allows companies to have flexibility in their enforcement of things so they can make case by case adjustments. If they said will on everything and then one person didn't get enforced it would set a precedent.

Usually the word may will apply to fees and fines so that based on the intent of the reason for the fee or fine it can be handled properly. If someone is pirating or commiting fraud you can bet the max of the may will happen. If someone loses a card or has their kid put it in the dish washer I bet they won't charge the amouint they state in the T&C.

As stated prior the T&C of any company is there to protect the company by stating what it is they have the ability to do with their services if you choose to be a customer of theirs. It does protect people who read it and accept it but those who choose to read it and try to interpit it to their own meaning will be disappointed at some point.

There will never be a "customer friendly" T&C because that's not what they're there for.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

mitchflorida said:


> I called dtv and they said there is still a cancellation fee if you don't agree with the new terms and conditions. If there is a specific problem you have with the t&c , they will work with you to defray any extra costs.
> 
> So this whole thread has been basically a waste of time.


Great! Get those discounts in writing, get D* to actually give you the discounts, and you're all set.

Of course, you're not required to accept their compensation for certain things. If for example, the new TOS allowed them to use the personal data your box gathers and sell it to others, you can argue there is no proper compensation for that.

Going over the major differences between the old and the new, they are:

1. D* now gives you the option of using either a phone line or Internet connection for each box.

2. The new TOS authorizes D* to send you text messages to your cell phone. But it also says you can opt out.

3. The new TOS allows D* to recoup pre-paid Service credits it previously gave to you if you cancel service (Wow! Nice way around the ETFs!)

4. The new TOS also removes your right to request a paper copy of your bill if you've signed up for autopay. (D* can still give you one, but now it's just up to their discretion).

5. Finally, the new TOS has a new "Box and/or enabled TV fee". This service fee replaces the "Additional TV Authorization fee" which only applied to owned equipment. The new service fee applies to *all *equipment, as it is also meant to replace the lease fee. Except that most of us have signed a separate lease agreement which also lets D* charge us a lease fee. So people who are leasing equipment could get charged both the service and the lease fees. Currently, D* is not charging the new fee for people who are leasing, but they could.

It's that last (sloppy) change that constitutes a materially adverse change. But as long as D* is careful not to actually charge you more, they can argue that it's not materially adverse. It'd be up to a jury to decide. But keep this in mind for future rate hikes -- D* either has to credit you the difference or allow you to cancel without an ETF. It's not just them being nice about it.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

bobcamp1 said:


> Great! Get those discounts in writing, get D* to actually give you the discounts, and you're all set.
> 
> Of course, you're not required to accept their compensation for certain things. If for example, the new TOS allowed them to use the personal data your box gathers and sell it to others, you can argue there is no proper compensation for that.
> 
> ...


While it's fun to play internet lawyer it's not all correct. Number 5 is especially incorrect in your interpritation. The new fee name just acknowledge what already happened with the last pricing change and allows RVU units to be covered into the fee where as before it was just assumed. It is not an addition of a new fee it's wording to explain the fee and add specificially any device that gets service.


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## SatmanDo (May 11, 2012)

Just got this email (TOS) and through google found this thread.

Ive been a subscriber since Dtv existence in all practicality. 
(GM Hughes USSB days) AND have and have had no contract.
All eq Owned since day 1.

What does this "new TOS" mean for me? (exactly)

I in fact am considering a cancellation this month to switch providers after all this time. (end of my paid in advance exact service period date).
IMHO directv has fell way behind and is not the value it once was and doubt will ever be Again. The company is no where near what it was (rephrased Ever was or will be again)


Going forward:
I currently have a 10$ credit And free showtime due to retention from a while back. 
According to this (thread) am i going to have to pay a cancellation fee>?
Or
Will i have to pay back the "credits" they gave me ?

Also, IF i meet and/or beat the date implied (new TOS) with the cancellation of service Will they refund me the difference of the prorated service i havent and will not use??


TiA.


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## wahooq (Oct 19, 2011)

> I currently have a 10$ credit And free showtime due to retention from a while back.
> According to this (thread) am i going to have to pay a cancellation fee>?


Nothing has changed ...if you aren't under any service commitment then there will be no ETF


> Will i have to pay back the "credits" they gave me ?


Best of my understanding in this is if they gave you say...Sunday Ticket for free and you cancel 3 months in then yes you will get charged for those months. I could be mistaken and will check back...although Shades might know



> Also, IF i meet and/or beat the date implied (new TOS) with the cancellation of service Will they refund me the difference of the prorated service i havent and will not use??


Prorated service is always refunded at cancellation


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## cariera (Oct 27, 2006)

Credits given for retention purposes can be reversed if you cancel within 60 days of receiving those credits. However it is very unlikely that the monthly discount you received will be reversed, this policy is almost always applied to lump sum credits.

If you were given a programming or sports package (Starz or NFLST) at a zero $ charge, Directv will not go back and charge you for that free programming. However, lets say you received a $100 credit towards the charges for NFLST for staying with Directv and then canceled within a month - that credit would most likely be reversed.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> While it's fun to play internet lawyer it's not all correct. Number 5 is especially incorrect in your interpritation. The new fee name just acknowledge what already happened with the last pricing change and allows RVU units to be covered into the fee where as before it was just assumed. It is not an addition of a new fee it's wording to explain the fee and add specificially any device that gets service.


#5 got rid of the "not applicable to those who lease equipment" clause. I know what D* *meant* to do, but unfortunately they left the door open for themselves to charge both the lease fee and the service fee. If the fees have different names, or they exist in different contracts, then they are legally different fees. Here *both* apply.

People are often scolded in this forum when they admit they didn't read what they signed. They always point out the contracts and quote from them directly. Yet when someone *does* read it, they are scolded for "reading it wrong."

D* isn't the only provider doing this -- other cable providers and especially cellular providers are notorious for doing this. Interestingly, in other forums lawyers are arguing with themselves over what happens if the contract is adversely changed. It's not cut and dry like the providers (obviously) want you to believe.


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## rapidturtle (Jan 7, 2012)

I just got out of a Sprint contract because of them changing the agreement. They took the discounts away from my second line of service on a family plan of 4 phones. That changed the agreement, and let me out of contract. 
The best part was that we just bought 3 new smartphones really cheap, and were able to sell them for a profit of $900. 
I guess people just get pissed off that the companies hold all of the power in these contracts, and leave us feeling helpless.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

rapidturtle said:


> I just got out of a Sprint contract because of them changing the agreement. They took the discounts away from my second line of service on a family plan of 4 phones. That changed the agreement, and let me out of contract.
> The best part was that we just bought 3 new smartphones really cheap, and were able to sell them for a profit of $900.
> I guess people just get pissed off that the companies hold all of the power in these contracts, and leave us feeling helpless.


This is a requirement that was placed on cellular companies because they were constantly changing areas and roaming fees. It got to the point where if you bought an area plan (no longer available through most companies) your area could change 3-4 times a year. This was causing egregious charges that consumer's couldn't control or change. So with telephone providers if they make anything that could be a monetary impacting change you can cancel service without a fee if you don't agree with it.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> This is a requirement that was placed on cellular companies because they were constantly changing areas and roaming fees. It got to the point where if you bought an area plan (no longer available through most companies) your area could change 3-4 times a year. This was causing egregious charges that consumer's couldn't control or change. So with telephone providers if they make anything that could be a monetary impacting change you can cancel service without a fee if you don't agree with it.


You forgot gigantic ETFs. ETFs now shrink as the contract progresses. Cellular companies don't follow a different set of laws than other companies -- they were singled out for severely bending or violating existing laws.

Once cable and satellite providers saw that, they proactively changed their ETF policies to match. Some even banned fee increases during the contract and called it a "feature." The last thing they want is the FTC "helping" them make their contracts more consumer friendly.


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## -Draino- (May 19, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Yes, of course.
> 
> You would be the one choosing to cancel, not them. They're just changing their T's&C's, you're the one canceling.


That is 100% wrong. THEY are changing the contract and THEY are giving you the OPTION to not agree to the new terms. If you decide that you don't agree, you only have to pay what you owe them for that month. DirecTV CANNOT legally charge you any additional fees.

I don't have time to look up lawsuits that have show what I'm saying to be true, but I will ASAP and post links to backup my statement.

DirecTV can say whatever they want but they can't enforce an illegal contract no matter how well it may be written.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Except I believe you agreed in your original contract, to accept the fact that DirecTv is allowed to make changes at any time. I believe if you decline to accept their changes, you would only be exempt from paying any additional charges caused by the new terms until such time as your contract expires, at which time you would be disconnected.

I am sure certain states have exclusions.


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## -Draino- (May 19, 2008)

bobcamp1 said:


> Section 4 talks about what happens if you disagree with the new terms. It mentions section 5b, d, and e, but NOT c which is what should apply (not surprised).
> 
> Section 5b is what happens when YOU cancel. It mentions the ETFs.
> 
> ...


You are 100% correct. THEY changed the terms and because of that, the customer DOES NOT have to agree. If the customer does not agree with the new terms then DirecTV is going to cancel you, not the other way around


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> Except I believe you agreed in your original contract, to accept the fact that DirecTv is allowed to make changes at any time.


Yup, but save your typing because most here don't seem to get that.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Yup, but save your typing because most here don't seem to get that.


Really? This, coming from someone who doesn't "seem to get" that having a current credit or debit card on file with DirecTV is required by the DirecTV Customer Agreement.

If he's talking about payment of an ETF, then there is no provision, as Davenlr supposes, to "only be exempt from paying any additional charges caused by the new terms until such time as your contract expires, at which time you would be disconnected," if a customer refuses to accept new terms and conditions.

If cancellation is initiated by DirecTV, then any ETF should be waived, as per the Customer Agreement.


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## inf0z (Oct 16, 2011)

IBTL


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Davenlr said:


> Except I believe you agreed in your original contract, to accept the fact that DirecTv is allowed to make changes at any time. I believe if you decline to accept their changes, you would only be exempt from paying any additional charges caused by the new terms until such time as your contract expires, at which time you would be disconnected.
> 
> I am sure certain states have exclusions.


All 50 states have exclusions, plus D.C., via Federal contract laws.

And what is meant by "disconnected"? Does the customer pay any ETFs?

They can make trivial changes to the TOS (i.e. replace "receiver" with "box"), but they're not supposed to make any changes that would adversely affect you. The definition of "adversely affect" is under scrutiny. Any fee hike (even one penny) is adverse. But what about potential fees or other affects?


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

You still have a couple of hours to test your theories. Let us know how your experience goes with it.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

Shades228 said:


> You still have a couple of hours to test your theories. Let us know how your experience goes with it.


The theory will have to remain just that for now, at least for me. I have no objection to the modified Customer Agreement.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

State law will govern peoples rights to cancel with or without ETF.
There isn't one answer for everyone here at dbstalk.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

"NR4P" said:


> State law will govern peoples rights to cancel with or without ETF.
> There isn't one answer for everyone here at dbstalk.


Exactly. People here should really stop trying to play Internet lawyer.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

NR4P said:


> State law will govern peoples rights to cancel with or without ETF.
> There isn't one answer for everyone here at dbstalk.


The discussion has been about the rights of the customer and what happens with an ETF when it's DirecTV that cancels, not the customer.

Yes, state law will vary, but the DirecTV Customer Agreement is the same no matter what state you reside in, and there are general principles of contract law that apply in practically every state.


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## wahooq (Oct 19, 2011)

Objection!


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

dcandmc said:


> The discussion has been about the rights of the customer and what happens with an ETF when it's DirecTV that cancels, not the customer.
> 
> Yes, state law will vary, but the DirecTV Customer Agreement is the same no matter what state you reside in, and there are general principles of contract law that apply in practically every state.


By choosing to not agree the person is choosing to cancel service. It's the same thing as not paying your bill. If you don't pay your bill then DIRECTV cancels the account as they determine you no longer want the service because you have stopped paying for it. That's the bottom line and DIRECTV's lawyers know it. Just like every other company out there. By you informing them that you no longer agree to their terms of service you're requesting that the service be stopped.

Repeating over and over what you want it to be will not change the legality of what would happen.

I hate using analogy's because then people just want to argue about how the analogy is flawed but to keep it simple I'll use one.

If you told everyone you would pick them up food, and you never specified a payment type before, but then said they had to give you cash from now on and someone said "I don't agree with that you can use my card" they're choosing to not have you pick them up lunch if you're not willing to change your requirements.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Shades228 said:


> By choosing to not agree the person is choosing to cancel service. It's the same thing as not paying your bill.


No it isn't.

Do you have legal training, or are you in the office of Counsel at DIRECTV®?


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

Shades228 said:


> By choosing to not agree the person is choosing to cancel service. It's the same thing as not paying your bill. If you don't pay your bill then DIRECTV cancels the account as they determine you no longer want the service because you have stopped paying for it. That's the bottom line and DIRECTV's lawyers know it. Just like every other company out there. By you informing them that you no longer agree to their terms of service you're requesting that the service be stopped.


I'm sorry, but this is just plain wrong. By the wording of DirecTV's Customer Agreement, service can be cancelled by the customer ("Your Cancellation" section 5.(b)) or by DirecTV ("Our Cancellation" section 5.(c)). The Agreement specifically says that not paying amounts owed or electing not to accept changed terms may result in DirecTV cancelling service.

You can't read into a customer's refusal to accept new terms and conditions anything other than a refusal to accept new terms and conditions. The customer may be perfectly happy with the service and want to continue under the old terms. It's up to DirecTV to decide how to proceed (cancel the customer or let service continue under the old terms).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

dcandmc said:


> It's up to DirecTV to decide how to proceed (cancel the customer or let service continue under the old terms).


As is made clear in another section, DIRECTV "cannot" maintain different sets of T&C's for different customers.


DIRECTV Customer Agreement said:


> If you notify us that you do not accept such terms and conditions, then we may cancel your Service as provided in Section 5, as we cannot offer Service to different customers on different terms, among other reasons.


The "may" part is just more of that apparent legal squishyness that has infected the legalese of late.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

raott said:


> Exactly. People here should really stop trying to play Internet lawyer.


But it's fun.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

dcandmc said:


> I'm sorry, but this is just plain wrong. By the wording of DirecTV's Customer Agreement, service can be cancelled by the customer ("Your Cancellation" section 5.(b)) or by DirecTV ("Our Cancellation" section 5.(c)). The Agreement specifically says that not paying amounts owed or electing not to accept changed terms may result in DirecTV cancelling service.


So what you are saying is that if you do not pay your bill DirecTV can cancel your account and you will not owe an ETF?


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

HobbyTalk said:


> So what you are saying is that if you do not pay your bill DirecTV can cancel your account and you will not owe an ETF?


No, my argument throughout the thread has been that if you refuse to accept new terms and conditions and DirecTV then cancels, you will not owe an ETF (if one applies). Not paying your bill is a breach of the contract. Refusing new terms and conditions is not a breach of the contract, and is an option that DirecTV provides. They are clearly not the same thing, and I would expect that any applicable ETF would be applied in the first case but not the second.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

harsh said:


> As is made clear in another section, DIRECTV "cannot" maintain different sets of T&C's for different customers.The "may" part is just more of that apparent legal squishyness that has infected the legalese of late.


DirecTV words it two different ways in the same document. In one place they say that they "will" cancel service if new terms and conditions are not accepted; in another place they say that they "may" cancel service if new terms and conditions are not accepted.


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## MarkG21 (Jan 4, 2010)

My opinion, I think it is a too good to be true that you can escape your etf fees for this kind of change in the agreement. Directv is judge and jury on this and going to arbitration probably doesn't make sense financially wise.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dcandmc said:


> No, my argument throughout the thread has been that if you refuse to accept new terms and conditions and DirecTV then cancels, you will not owe an ETF (if one applies). Not paying your bill is a breach of the contract. Refusing new terms and conditions is not a breach of the contract, and is an option that DirecTV provides. They are clearly not the same thing, and I would expect that any applicable ETF would be applied in the first case but not the second.


 It does state that continuing service constitutes acceptance of the new agreement so it can easily be argued that not accepting the terms constitutes cancelation. Additionally, I can't find anything that says they'll waive any fees if they cancel.

It isn't clear either way but there is certainly nothing to prevent them charging the ETF. If they wanted to, what's to stop them? :shrug:

Mike


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

Mike Bertelson said:


> It does state that continuing service constitutes acceptance of the new agreement so it can easily be argued that not accepting the terms constitutes cancelation. Additionally, I can't find anything that says they'll waive any fees if they cancel.
> 
> It isn't clear either way but there is certainly nothing to prevent them charging the ETF. If they wanted to, what's to stop them? :shrug:
> 
> Mike


What's important is who's doing the cancellation. The Customer Agreement explicity states that if the customer does not accept new terms and conditions, DirecTV will/may initiate cancellation. As mentioned previously, there is cancellation by the subscriber, and there is cancellation by DirecTV. These two different types of cancellation are described separately in the Customer Agreement. For both types of cancellation, the Customer Agreement says that the customer "will still be responsible for payment of all outstanding balances accrued through that effective date," as well as a deactivation fee. However, language about owing an ETF is only included in the section describing what happens if the customer initiates cancellation. DirecTV could very easily have included the ETF language in the section that describes what happens when DirecTV initiates cancellation, but they didn't.

You're right; there isn't anything that explicity says that DirecTV will waive any applicable ETF if they initiate cancellation, but the omission of language stating that an ETF will apply is telling when such language is included in the section that talks about customer initiated cancellation.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> What's important is who's doing the cancellation.


It's ALWAYS the customer. They aren't holding a gun to your head making you cancel. Actually even if they were YOU would still be making the choice to cancel or be shot.



dcandmc said:


> The Customer Agreement explicity states that if the customer does not accept new terms and conditions, DirecTV will/may initiate cancellation.


And that is a choice being made by the customer. I really don't get how this is so hard for you to understand. It's a customer's choice to either accept the T's&C's or reject them. If they CHOOSE to reject then then their account may be cancelled. It's a customer choice, it's ALWAYS a customer choice.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> It's ALWAYS the customer. They aren't holding a gun to your head making you cancel. Actually even if they were YOU would still be making the choice to cancel or be shot.
> 
> And that is a choice being made by the customer. I really don't get how this is so hard for you to understand. It's a customer's choice to either accept the T's&C's or reject them. If they CHOOSE to reject then then their account may be cancelled. It's a customer choice, it's ALWAYS a customer choice.


And _I_ really don't get how this is so hard a concept for _you_ to understand. (Kind of like your insistence that there is no requirement to have a valid credit or debit card on file.) If it was "always the customer," then DirecTV wouldn't have a section in their Customer Agreement that is titled "Our Cancellation" that has different language then the section that is titled "Your Cancellation," now would they?

I guess that we'll both have to agree to disagree.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

dcandmc said:


> And _I_ really don't get how this is so hard a concept for _you_ to understand. (Kind of like your insistence that there is no requirement to have a valid credit or debit card on file.) If it was "always the customer," then DirecTV wouldn't have a section in their Customer Agreement that is titled "Our Cancellation" that has different language then the section that is titled "Your Cancellation," now would they?
> 
> I guess that we'll both have to agree to disagree.


That section is for when DIRECTV has determined that they no longer want to have a customer as a customer anymore. If they choose to cancel your service for you with no intiation by you, such as fraud, credit abuse, harassment, or various other reasons, then that section would pertain to that account. All companies reserve the right to no longer do business with customers as they see fit.


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## dcandmc (Sep 24, 2008)

Shades228 said:


> That section is for when DIRECTV has determined that they no longer want to have a customer as a customer anymore. If they choose to cancel your service for you with no intiation by you, such as fraud, credit abuse, harassment, or various other reasons, then that section would pertain to that account. All companies reserve the right to no longer do business with customers as they see fit.


I guess that you missed the part of the section that says this:

*In addition, we may cancel your Service if you elect not to accept any changed terms described to you, as provided in Section 4.*

Credit abuse, fraud, not paying a bill, etc. are all breaches of the contract. Choosing not to accept new terms and conditions is _not_ a breach of the contract, as it is specifically contemplated and allowed by the Customer Agreement.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> And _I_ really don't get how this is so hard a concept for _you_ to understand. (Kind of like your insistence that there is no requirement to have a valid credit or debit card on file.) If it was "always the customer," then DirecTV wouldn't have a section in their Customer Agreement that is titled "Our Cancellation" that has different language then the section that is titled "Your Cancellation," now would they?
> 
> I guess that we'll both have to agree to disagree.


As has been said that section is for if they want to get rid of you for some reason like you abusing the system, screaming at a CSR, etc.

Whether or not you accept the Terms and Conditions it is YOUR choice, not DirecTV's.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

dcandmc said:


> Choosing not to accept new terms and conditions is _not_ a breach of the contract, as it is specifically contemplated and allowed by the Customer Agreement.


And it's still YOUR choice!


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

RunnerFL said:


> As has been said that section is for if they want to get rid of you for some reason like you abusing the system, screaming at a CSR, etc.
> 
> Whether or not you accept the Terms and Conditions it is YOUR choice, not DirecTV's.


But that's not even the issue anyone's disputing! The point is ---- oh, never mind, it's been made several times already.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> It's ALWAYS the customer. They aren't holding a gun to your head making you cancel. Actually even if they were YOU would still be making the choice to cancel or be shot.


Nobody's holding a gun to D*'s head to make them change the agreement. If they don't want this kind of trouble, all they have to do is leave the existing agreement alone for existing customers.

Plus, nobody's forcing them to cancel your service if the you refuse the new TOS. D* can always offer service under the old TOS.

Finally, just because something is in the TOS doesn't mean it's legal or will always hold up in court. Section 4 of D*'s agreement comes to mind. The fees are kept just low enough so that people won't bother to fight it. And the fees are low enough such that lawyers aren't interested in individual cases.

Since I've done this with Sprint, even before the FCC "smackdown", it is possible.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"bobcamp1" said:


> If they don't want this kind of trouble, all they have to do is leave the existing agreement alone for existing customers.


What trouble? There is no trouble. There will be no trouble.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

"dcandmc" said:


> No, my argument throughout the thread has been that if you refuse to accept new terms and conditions and DirecTV then cancels, you will not owe an ETF (if one applies). Not paying your bill is a breach of the contract.


False. DirecTV would not be the party choosing to cancel, the customer would by not accepting the TOS. It is the customer's choice to not accept or abide by the TOS - thereby choosing to cancel their device. They are therefore responsible for an ETF if their contract has not expired.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Nobody's holding a gun to D*'s head to make them change the agreement.


Maybe not an actual gun no, but I'm sure their lawyers are holding a preverbial gun to their heads.



bobcamp1 said:


> If they don't want this kind of trouble, all they have to do is leave the existing agreement alone for existing customers.


In this day and age that's not possible.



bobcamp1 said:


> Plus, nobody's forcing them to cancel your service if the you refuse the new TOS. D* can always offer service under the old TOS.


Not forcing to cancel, no. The key words are "may cancel". As far as the Terms & Conditions, no they can't offer more than one set.



bobcamp1 said:


> Finally, just because something is in the TOS doesn't mean it's legal or will always hold up in court.


Actually Terms & Conditions is a legally binding document. Will it hold up in court? Not always, no. That's why you take it to court, to try to beat it.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Why the heck do things have to get personal? Why can't you guys make your point without the personal jabs?

This has played out and I'm closing it. If you're missing a post it's because you're rude and weren't civil...ya just had to make it a personal jab.

Mike


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