# FROM DISH: L187 to spool on Thursday (UPDATED)



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

In case you didn't catch the tech forum tonight, the next 921 version L187 will spool on Wednesday.


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## dishbacker (Jun 15, 2004)

any hint on what to expect? Or what we should look at testing before the update so we can test to make sure it got fixed with the update?

I missed the chat (watched HD football instead)... any other 921 info passed along?


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> In case you didn't catch the tech forum tonight, the next 921 version L187 will spool on Wednesday.


It sounds like L188 and L189 will be forthcoming quickly. From the sounds of it, L187 will focus on timers, L188 on OTA, and L189 on ? Could you please advise any additional information concerning the upgrade software fixes?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I'll have the list of fixes that Dish provides to post for you hopefully by Wednesday morning. I know some of the stuff that's been fixed on my 921, but considering some of the stuff that isn't working for some people that does work for me, I'm hesitant to talk about anything until it's out to everyone and you've had a chance to take a look at it yourselves.

According to the chat, I believe that Renee also said that L188 is scheduled for this month, and L189 is scheduled for mid-September. My bet is that we'll see L189 around the first or second week of October or so. I'll say more when I know it and can.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I think that L189 is the OTA Guide. I'm waiting to see how they implement this before I spend on the 921.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I have noticed Renee is overly optimistic on fixes and release dates. I recall the last time she was on, the targets were stated as mid June for the OTA fixes. So if it happens as stated, be surprised and if not just consider it business as usual. 

One thing that did catch my attention is that for the first time I can recall is that they admitted working on a content protected way to do hard drive expansion on the DVR. In the past they just stated it could not be done, That hasn't changed but at least now we know somewhere in their advanced R&D group someone is working on a way to do this.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I recorded and watched that part and wrote it down . She said that 187 would spool on Wednesday wich had timer fixes in it. 188 would spool mid August which had over scan fixes and ota channels would be able to be put in a favorites list. 189 would spool in mid Sept. and would have terresteral epg functionality like the 811 does. In mid October , open tv( Dish home) software would come. It seems kind of strange that we would get a software update twice in the same month , but I guess it happened that way in July too.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Don: Re: HDD expansion.

Yeah, that was an encouraging comment - what bothers me is that it ain't brain surgery - the data is already well-encrypted, and also "exposed" to almost the same level as an external HDD.


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

Mark, we promise to try and follow the new rules for L187+ bug posting in the official bug posting forum, so that we don't have to be flogged and otherwise savagely beaten. Er... Maybe I can't speak for everyone.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

:lol:


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## chuckbernard (Aug 3, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> One thing that did catch my attention is that for the first time I can recall is that they admitted working on a content protected way to do hard drive expansion on the DVR. In the past they just stated it could not be done, That hasn't changed but at least now we know somewhere in their advanced R&D group someone is working on a way to do this.


From the way I understand this, it is not a technical issue but rather a political one being fought with the content providers. They really don't like to make it easy for end users to make "perfect" digital copies of their content. That's why the firewire ports died. Strange that they would use the ultra-slow USB port if and when the feature is ever added.

I just want to be able to throw in an additional 250GB drive since my disk is almost always full and I just got the receiver 2 weeks ago!


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## pbrown (May 23, 2002)

Any chance this update happens overnight or at least at a time when people can make sure their prime time recordings don't get toasted? Afternoon/Evening= wrong time to send an update.


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## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

Since I don't have an 811... how is the terrestrial program guide handled? Will I actually have a complete program guide with my locals after 189????


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

pbrown - updates usually spool between 4 and 5pm mountain time. So, it's doubtful that it will come tonight.

I have no idea about that Scooters.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Chuck- 

Your understanding is fundamentally incorrect and has no basis in the facts. You have been duped by some of the conspiracy theorists posting on some of the other boards. 

You, like everyone here wants the hard drive expansion. But, first we want the 921 to work stabilized. Once that is done, I'm sure we will see E* pursue the idea of a hard drive expansion kit, if for no other reason than they want to be a "me too" following in the footsteps of HDTIVO that has it now. The 921 is designed to accomodate a second drive and in the past the developers have discussed this but only on the basis of future possibilities. 
For now if you must have more HD capacity, the HDTIVO has this capability. I know because I have 107 hours of HD content capacity on mine now with 3 drives. No bugs, it just works. I truly believe E* will strive to match that capability in the 921, but not until other problem areas are resolved first.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Don: I agree, but don't see any reasonable way to actually "do" an expansion. The DishWire ports are gone, but maybe due to internal design they couldn't be used for an external HDD anyway. The USB is supposedly 1.1 not 2.0 (but I don't think anyone knows) so that would be way too slow.

That leaves 2 other options - neither of which I think are acceptable to E* (even though they'd work for most of us). The 2 options are: add PCI card with high-speed USB or FireWire ports, OR, shove a second hard drive inside the case. Both of these require the user to open the box, and I'll betya a doughnut that E* will NEVER let that happen.

Please tell me if you can see any other solution.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Update - just received word that L187 has been delayed until tomorrow (Thursday) for public release. No reason given.


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## Redster (Jan 14, 2004)




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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

My guess is a problem in the satellite uplink process...but that's just a guess.


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## ayalbaram (Aug 4, 2003)

If I'm going away for the weekend leaving tomorrow morning do we think theres a chance in hell it'll install the update and not mess up all my dvr timers? Is there any way to set it not to take the update dont want to lose all my weekend programming


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Simon- The original game plan was for E* to sell a drive bay expansion kit with drive. The hardware is in place( just underneath the main hard drive is an empty drive bay including the cable with IDE connector. ) All that is needed is the drive, with software access. When I had asked this question I was told that any drive would have to be supplied by E* and would be configured to a specific 921 (married to the 921) That is no different than how it works with the HDTIVO except the TIVO has to be modified internally with a new bracket to mount two hard drives. If you looked inside you would see the 921 is ready to go.  

The USB 2.0 would require a special card because the slots are not standard. I don't believe the standard USB computer cards use a different form factor. Correct me if that is not so but the current cards for tuners look different. You are correct that the current USB port is 1.1 and was designed for a keyboard expansion. Way back when, this thing was designed, I believe there was some consideration for connection to a broadband modem to but that sort of connection was the very issue that the content providers were worried about. I never heard much talk about the modem support after that. Before this box was released there were lots of creative ideas being discussed but I believe the only ones ever really considered serious were the keyboard and DVHS hard drive dump on Dishwire as well as some expansion drive. 

BTW- If you pop the lid on your 921 you will see that adding a second drive, mechanically, is as easy as any computer. The issue is the software. Didn't tahoerob or someone post inside pics back in December?


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

ayalbaram said:


> If I'm going away for the weekend leaving tomorrow morning do we think theres a chance in hell it'll install the update and not mess up all my dvr timers? Is there any way to set it not to take the update dont want to lose all my weekend programming


Don't put it in stand by when you leave. Leave it powered up. When you get home check DBSTalk to make sure the update has spooled and all is well with the new update then turn off your receiver for 30 min to take the download and then power back up as normal.


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## tahoerob (Mar 22, 2003)

Here is link to inside photos:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=4057&highlight=inside+921


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

ayalbaram said:


> If I'm going away for the weekend leaving tomorrow morning do we think theres a chance in hell it'll install the update and not mess up all my dvr timers? Is there any way to set it not to take the update dont want to lose all my weekend programming


I left last Friday for part of the weekend when L187 installed on my 921, and my weekend timers fired normally while I was gone. My 921 was in standby when I left. YMMV, but it worked fine with mine.

And no, there's no way to tell your 921 to not take the upgrade. It will download the new software even if it's not in standby. It may not install it, but it will download it.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Update - just received word that L187 has been delayed until tomorrow (Thursday) for public release. No reason given.


 Sometimes it is believable that the actual update will take effect on the 12th of nevuary! Kinda like the delay on the 921's :lol:


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

As long as they don't wait till Friday the 13th to do the update. That would be disaterous with the 921's luck.:eek2:


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> Simon- The original game plan was for E* to sell a drive bay expansion kit with drive. The hardware is in place( just underneath the main hard drive is an empty drive bay including the cable with IDE connector. ) All that is needed is the drive, with software access. When I had asked this question I was told that any drive would have to be supplied by E* and would be configured to a specific 921 (married to the 921) That is no different than how it works with the HDTIVO except the TIVO has to be modified internally with a new bracket to mount two hard drives. If you looked inside you would see the 921 is ready to go.
> 
> The USB 2.0 would require a special card because the slots are not standard. I don't believe the standard USB computer cards use a different form factor. Correct me if that is not so but the current cards for tuners look different. You are correct that the current USB port is 1.1 and was designed for a keyboard expansion. Way back when, this thing was designed, I believe there was some consideration for connection to a broadband modem to but that sort of connection was the very issue that the content providers were worried about. I never heard much talk about the modem support after that. Before this box was released there were lots of creative ideas being discussed but I believe the only ones ever really considered serious were the keyboard and DVHS hard drive dump on Dishwire as well as some expansion drive.
> 
> BTW- If you pop the lid on your 921 you will see that adding a second drive, mechanically, is as easy as any computer. The issue is the software. Didn't tahoerob or someone post inside pics back in December?


Wow! I looked at the pictures of the interior of the 921. There are lots of unused ports! This is really a computer! I wonder what the Specs are on the CPU?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> Simon- The original game plan was for E* to sell a drive bay expansion kit with drive. The hardware is in place( just underneath the main hard drive is an empty drive bay including the cable with IDE connector. ) All that is needed is the drive, with software access. When I had asked this question I was told that any drive would have to be supplied by E* and would be configured to a specific 921 (married to the 921) That is no different than how it works with the HDTIVO except the TIVO has to be modified internally with a new bracket to mount two hard drives. If you looked inside you would see the 921 is ready to go.
> 
> The USB 2.0 would require a special card because the slots are not standard. I don't believe the standard USB computer cards use a different form factor. Correct me if that is not so but the current cards for tuners look different. You are correct that the current USB port is 1.1 and was designed for a keyboard expansion. Way back when, this thing was designed, I believe there was some consideration for connection to a broadband modem to but that sort of connection was the very issue that the content providers were worried about. I never heard much talk about the modem support after that. Before this box was released there were lots of creative ideas being discussed but I believe the only ones ever really considered serious were the keyboard and DVHS hard drive dump on Dishwire as well as some expansion drive.
> 
> BTW- If you pop the lid on your 921 you will see that adding a second drive, mechanically, is as easy as any computer. The issue is the software. Didn't tahoerob or someone post inside pics back in December?


I know there's space inside the 921 for a second drive - like even a DVD-RW.  The problem is that you have to open the box, and be at least slightly skilled in order to install it. That's why I believe that E* will never release that to the field. As for expansion cards, it appears that there are some standard PCI slots in the box - but even if they are not 100% standard, the slots DO exist, and therefore a IEE1394 or USB2 port could be added - even if it's a special E* card.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

boylehome said:


> Wow! I looked at the pictures of the interior of the 921. There are lots of unused ports! This is really a computer! I wonder what the Specs are on the CPU?


It's a Cyrix VIA - running at 833MHz IIRC.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I suspect my update will be a disaster again- Why? Nothing to do with E* except for the timing. We're expected to have Tropical storm Bonnie coming over the Florida Panhandle. That configuration is usually responsible for periods of massive rainfall over Jacksonville. I figure 1-2 inches an hour. Anyone whisper rainfade? That followed by a real hurricane Charlie by Friday night. Guess I better dump the patio furniture in the pool! Safest place for it in high winds. 


Simon- I believe that this install would have to be authorized only at the dealer level with special dealer training. I don't see the install any more difficult than the weaknees install that only takes a few minutes to do. If they go with a mobile rack concept then drive swapping like I put in with my TIVO would be possible. I doubt they would go that far, however, and just use a fixed drive install.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

DOn: OK - if E* is willing to let dealers do the upgrade, that's reasonable - heck most of the ones I know also either do computers or have a shop right next door, so the necessary expertise is available.

What do you mean "weaknees install"?

Oh - and if I were you, I'd disconnect the 921 during the storms - just to make sure it won't get any bad software downloads.

P.S. - Cool idea for the patio furniture!


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Weaknees does a prepackaged hard drive upgrade for the TiVo (bracket and pre-prepped):
http://www.weaknees.com/hughes_hr10_250.php

While the dreaming is nice, there's nothing in EchoStar's track record to indicate they are ever going to let us take the top of the box (or allow an external hard drive, or even sanction a dealer upgrade).

Have you ALL written [email protected] to ask for this (I have in the past, but with the HD TiVo upgrades readily available, it's time to again)?


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

David- True indeed. But I have always felt that E* loves to be a "me too" and is quite uncomfortable with "leader" status. With DirecTV really pushing TIVO DVR's on all fronts, and that TIVO supports the 3rd party hard drive expansions (still it voids warranty if you open the box) that E* will eventually feel the pressure to add that feature too. 

I think Jacksonville is going to escape any wrath from Bonnie. Sunny here now. It's Charlie that I was worried about and that will be late Friday. I don't think the 921 suffers from screwed up downloads based on signal interruptions. The whole idea of a design with full redundant software was to prevent this. As I recall the error checksums are used to be sure the download bits are accurate before it is allowed to install. That statement from E* engineer should mean more to you Simon than it does me. Consequently, I don't think I will worry about it. More concerned about the dishes on the roof getting smashed by falling trees.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Excuse me, but we were led to believe with a very high degree of certainty, that the FireWire ports of the 921 would be working by now. Of course, we all know what happened to that fantasy.

And now we're being told that HD expansion of the 921 is a possibility. Is there anyone here who actually believes that will ever occur in a 921 box that still can't perform it's basic functionality after being out for 8 months. As I listened to what's her name describe the future 921 updates and what they would feature, I literally fell on the floor laughing, knowing full well that they won't occur on time and will break more than they fix and that they will most likely never get the 921 to function as it's supposed to. I just know that although I can receive KCET, PBS in Los Angeles, I will never be able to record it. Never. It's just not going to happen with the 921 and the current crop of engineers.


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## John Walsh (Apr 22, 2002)

Aren't we a little OT here?


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## Kagato (Jul 1, 2002)

We are OT, but the real question is, where is the update on L187? What's fixed and when's it going to go. I've got a whole slew of OTA stations in Minneapolis that the 921 hasn't been able to tune.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Last I heard, it's still scheduled for this afternoon to spool.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Jerry- as we wait for the update, a few of us are just babbling with the possible, with the thought of what might be. I agree with you that Renee's coments this week and last May are similar in that what she said about L188 , she said with that same smirk back in May that it would be out in mid June. Agreed that we should take what she says with the same certainty that I would take with my comments of what's possible. 
While you have every right to be cynical, that attitude does not change history. We know what's in the box and what possibilities are. But nothing will ever happen unless the base code is stabilized. In that respect the 921 and other DVR's from E* are a couple of years behind the stability of TIVO. I'll stop there because you already know my opinion of what needs to be done after 8 months. That hasn't changed either, my friend!


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> ...I think Jacksonville is going to escape any wrath from Bonnie. Sunny here now. It's Charlie that I was worried about and that will be late Friday. I don't think the 921 suffers from screwed up downloads based on signal interruptions. The whole idea of a design with full redundant software was to prevent this. As I recall the error checksums are used to be sure the download bits are accurate before it is allowed to install. That statement from E* engineer should mean more to you Simon than it does me. Consequently, I don't think I will worry about it. More concerned about the dishes on the roof getting smashed by falling trees.


Yeah - the multiple software copies SHOULD keep things safe, but after all this IS E* we're talking about. I've seen some posts about 721's crashing hard during software downloads, never to live again. Don't know how true that is, or if there's actually a correlation.

Not sure what E* engineer statement you're referring to - didn't see anything in this thread.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> While you have every right to be cynical, that attitude does not change history. We know what's in the box and what possibilities are. But nothing will ever happen unless the base code is stabilized. In that respect the 921 and other DVR's from E* are a couple of years behind the stability of TIVO. I'll stop there because you already know my opinion of what needs to be done after 8 months. That hasn't changed either, my friend!


Oh yea. I've read what you've recently said, and I'm complete agreement with you Don. Enough is enough. If it's hardware that will prevent the 921 from ever working correctly, then dump it and refund our money. If it's software, then find the people who know how to correctly program the 921 and just do it.

I knew Dish's history back in Nov 2003 when I decided to stick with Dish and get two 811s and a 921. But, quite frankly, I never imagined Dish would be so bad and incompetent at getting this device to do the basics. If I had any inkling of what was to transpire with the 921, and given the Superdish fiasco, I would have switched to DirecTV and just waited for the HD Tivo.

I don't anticipate the 921 being any more functional in the next few months than it is now. If DirecTV substantially increases their HD content, I'll dump the Dish equipment and make the move to DirecTV and the HD Tivo. If Voom had an HD PVR, I'd switch to them, but their PVR is a long way off.

I'm just hoping that today's software upgrade doesn't make the 921 worse than it already is. I know that I'll still not be able to record our PBS after today and I don't anticipate I'll ever be able to. The only reason I don't complain about our local UPN station not even being receivable with the 921 is because they don't do anything in HD, so they don't exist as far as I'm concerned.


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## pdlittle (Jan 25, 2004)

I have begun to receive the update.


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## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

:lol: Just noticed that if you goto Menu/System SetUp/Software Update,,,, it will show the update status..ie how long it has been running, group of total group etc.

interesting.....

tw


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## lynnie (Jul 31, 2004)

Hooray, my 921 is downloading!


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> It's a Cyrix VIA - running at 833MHz IIRC.


Thank you very much for the information.


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## bluegreg (May 10, 2004)

i have to unplug my 921 to make software install is that ok?


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## ggw2000 (Dec 22, 2003)

lynnie said:


> Hooray, my 921 is downloading!


Mine is downloading as I write this! Hope you are correct with the "hooray". I have had NO problems what so ever since the L186 update and hopefully it will stay that way.... Gerry


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## mraub (Mar 5, 2004)

Does a flashing power light when the unit is off mean it's taking the download? Mine flashed for about 25 minutes and just quit. Crossing my fingers and powering on the unit.

MIKE


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

group 30 of 30 total download time: 41:52


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

bluegreg: Yes, that's OK - and then once the new software has installed, and you're seeing TV again, pwoer down and pull the plug AGAIN - this is an undocumented procedure that seems to ensure the new software "settles" in smoothly.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I had to front-panel reboot to get the install to start. Got a GSOD (Gray Screen Of Death) 5 minutes in. Took 3 minutes to come back up after that. 

Then I did a power plug reboot (first one since the last software update) to help "settle" the new software (per MarkL's suggestion some time ago). 4 minutes.

So far so good.


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## TV Director (Feb 14, 2004)

mraub said:


> Does a flashing power light when the unit is off mean it's taking the download? Mine flashed for about 25 minutes and just quit. Crossing my fingers and powering on the unit.
> 
> MIKE


That's exactly correct. Now that it's finished, unplug it for 2 1/2 to 3 minutes and plug it back in.


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## sjm992 (Jan 14, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> I had to front-panel reboot to get the install to start. Got a GSOD (Gray Screen Of Death) 5 minutes in. Took 3 minutes to come back up after that.
> 
> Then I did a power plug reboot (first one since the last software update) to help "settle" the new software (per MarkL's suggestion some time ago). 4 minutes.
> 
> So far so good.


Or you could do as I did - absolutely nothing! It took the download in standby (with a flashing green power light) then I started watching TV on 187 without a reboot of any kind and it's working just fine!
Stuart


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

bluegreg said:


> i have to unplug my 921 to make software install is that ok?


Its okay but shouldn't be necessary. See my poll on new bug report forum.


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## dishbacker (Jun 15, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> I had to front-panel reboot to get the install to start. Got a GSOD (Gray Screen Of Death) 5 minutes in. Took 3 minutes to come back up after that.
> 
> Then I did a power plug reboot (first one since the last software update) to help "settle" the new software (per MarkL's suggestion some time ago). 4 minutes.
> 
> So far so good.


Simon,

I noticed that Gray screen too, with a white X in the middle. It looked like the X-Windows GUI I've seen before when starting up on Unix (or running Exceed on Windows). It went away after about 10 seconds, but I have never seen that before. I believe it did it just before it started the install and just after I had done a power cord reset.


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## Skates (Apr 15, 2004)

A little help here...  

I saw that you're getting L187, but when I turned on my unit this morning, I'm still on L186. I just went into the menu to check. It appears the L187 software downloaded successfully, but didn't install. It says to turn the unit back off, so I've done so. I don't understand why it didn't install on it's own in the first place.

How long do I need to leave it turned off? And, if it won't install itself, is there a way to force it?

Thanks.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

To force the install: put the 921 into standby (turn off), pull the power cord for 2-3 minutes, and then plug back in. After the reboot, L187 will be installed.


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## Skates (Apr 15, 2004)

Thanks, Mark. I'll give it a try right now and let you know in about an hour.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I had to do the power cord pull for 3 minutes too as even the power button hold for 10 seconds returned me to L186. 

BTW- Mark- I like your bad boy locked box section. If we don't follow the rules we get put on death row with one chance to redeem ourselves. I guess I'll have to watch what I say from here on in.


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## leemathre (Sep 25, 2003)

Mark, for the L187 Bug Report forum, do you just want new bugs or should we also add bugs that were reported under previous versions but are still there after the upgrade to L187?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Leemathre - any and all bugs that are still present in the 921 that you find should be reported, even if they have previously reported under earlier software versions, please. 

That way we're sure that they won't "fall through the cracks".


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## leemathre (Sep 25, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Leemathre - any and all bugs that are still present in the 921 that you find should be reported, even if they have previously reported under earlier software versions, please.
> 
> That way we're sure that they won't "fall through the cracks".


OK, I will do that. Thanks


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## Skates (Apr 15, 2004)

The power cord unplug worked. L187 loaded. You'd think after reading these forums for as long as I have I woulda tried that first  

L187 is there...but I won't comment here on what it didn't fix...off to the bug report forum...


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