# Mandate of all digital in 09



## mikemorin (Jan 15, 2006)

hello just confirming this so i know what to tell customers or people that call my retail store. For the mandate of digital in 09 will customers with dish not be affected or will they have to get a converter also?? i thought it was 100% digital and they wouldn't be affected? 

I thought it was just for over the air antenna people with old tv's and cable subs that just have the coax screwed into there tv?


any help would be awesome!

Thanks
Mike


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

Dish customers are not impacted by this.


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

well my family has dish network and do not have the locals on the receiver because we get good reception from our atennia from both Cincinnati and dayton ohio, we only have the on hdtv in our living room, but the rest need converter boxes, but its going to be a problem with our dish receivers on two tvs the hdtv had a hd receiver. my brother thinks the digtal mandate will not happen.


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

Slordak said:


> Dish customers are not impacted by this.


Those without the locals on their Recivers will be impacted.


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## mikemorin (Jan 15, 2006)

angiecopus said:


> Those without the locals on their Recivers will be impacted.


OK THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP, I WANT TO MAKE SURE I WAS TELLING THE CUSTOMERS CORRECTLY!


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

angiecopus said:


> my brother thinks the digtal mandate will not happen.


Your brother is wrong. The delays are over and it is happening without any further delays. As previously stated, for people who have an active Dish box connected for their programming, there will be no impact.


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

what i am trying to say is that i will not be able to get my local stations after 2/09 because we don't get our LOCALS on our active reciver, i would like to know what dish is going to do with those people who don't have the locals on the reciver, because of us have an Atennia. so i will lose my local stations. because i cannot use a converter box with my reciver.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

angiecopus said:


> ...my brother thinks the digtal mandate will not happen.


And I think that computers are a fad and so I'm going to pass on them and wait for the next big thing to come along.

Realistically, the transition can't be delayed because bidders have already purchased the rights to reuse the frequencies above 700 MHz beginning on a certain date and have already made financial committments to be able to do so. The transition is going to take place and go off virtually without a hitch, because no matter who gets caught off guard, their problems will be immediately remediecd for just a few bucks with converter boxes and new TVs. The only dummies who might have to spend a couple thousand dollars might be privately owned MATV systems that will need digital demodulators and and analog modulators to keep putting out signals that their old TVs can process.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

Most people will not be affected, able companies provide boxes already and will provide for free after teh switch (or so I am told about the free part) you can get 2 40dollar coupons for those TV's that are connected via analog antenna now...but for D*/E*/cable we/they won;t be affected and as far as the 2009, oh yeah its definite

www.dtvanswers.com


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

angiecopus said:


> what i am trying to say is that i will not be able to get my local stations after 2/09 because we don't get our LOCALS on our active reciver, i would like to know what dish is going to do with those people who don't have the locals on the reciver, because of us have an Atennia. so i will lose my local stations. because i cannot use a converter box with my reciver.


They will offer to sell you their new TR-50.:grin:


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## goldbear (Jan 16, 2008)

angiecopus said:


> what i am trying to say is that i will not be able to get my local stations after 2/09 because we don't get our LOCALS on our active reciver, i would like to know what dish is going to do with those people who don't have the locals on the reciver, because of us have an Atennia. so i will lose my local stations. because i cannot use a converter box with my reciver.


If I understand your post correctly-- if you get locals from antenna now-- you have two options coming from Dish

1. One is the OTA converter box which would be available free if you apply for the government coupon which you should do immediately. Don't have to use SAT for that.
Dish will have one out shortly-- and other companies have some coming out also.
You can get two coupons to pay for them

2. For some cost (not sure how much) the new OTA digital recorder (OTA DVR) that dish announced would I thin serve as your converter box AND allow you to reocrd your OTA shows.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Or you could use a VIP622/722 for your OTA and be able to record.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

angiecopus said:


> what i am trying to say is that i will not be able to get my local stations after 2/09 because we don't get our LOCALS on our active reciver, i would like to know what dish is going to do with those people who don't have the locals on the reciver, because of us have an Atennia. so i will lose my local stations. because i cannot use a converter box with my reciver.


Then YOU and your household need the DTV conversion boxes. Period. End of discussion. http://www.dtv2009.gov to apply for your 2 $40 coupons that have to be used on the DTV conversion boxes within 90 days of receipt.


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## majikfx (Jan 2, 2008)

mikemorin said:


> hello just confirming this so i know what to tell customers or people that call my retail store. For the mandate of digital in 09 will customers with dish not be affected or will they have to get a converter also?? i thought it was 100% digital and they wouldn't be affected?
> I thought it was just for over the air antenna people with old tv's and cable subs that just have the coax screwed into there tv?any help would be awesome!ThanksMike


Plain and simple, if you have any cable OR any satellite service the Feb 2009 analog to digital conversion will not, NOT impact you in any way, shape or manner.
For more info: www.dtv2009.gov


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

ok plain and simple, so i will be able to hook up a converter box to my tv and reciver?


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

scooper said:


> Then YOU and your household need the DTV conversion boxes. Period. End of discussion. http://www.dtv2009.gov to apply for your 2 $40 coupons that have to be used on the DTV conversion boxes within 90 days of receipt.


My cousin in Buffalo N.Y. says they can't do it and won't do anything on 02-17-09 but watch snow, move rabbit ears.

Digital- It's happening!!!!!!


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Angie - yes you can. Take your antenna cable, put it into the antenna input of the converter box. Take another piece of coax cable to go from the converter box RF output to your TVs RF input. Tune TV to channel 3 or 4 as required. Done.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Paul Secic said:


> My cousin in Buffalo N.Y. says they can't do it and won't do anything on 02-17-09 but watch snow, move rabbit ears.
> 
> Digital- It's happening!!!!!!


And you of course are ignoring him because he is wrong. I know you are ready to go


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

Now cut that out and get a digital tv


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

majikfx said:


> Plain and simple, if you have any cable OR any satellite service the Feb 2009 analog to digital conversion will not, NOT impact you in any way, shape or manner.
> For more info: www.dtv2009.gov


majikfx - better revise your answer a bit - IF you are receiving your locals via DBS or cable, you will not be affected by this transition. If you receive your locals via antenna - you ARE affected and will need a DTV converter box for each TV that gets locals via an antenna.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

And yes - getting a new TV with the digital tuners is also an option - but that option is not eligible for the $40 coupon. Most people will find it cheaper to get a converter box than a whole new TV


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

scooper said:


> IF you are receiving your locals via DBS or cable, you will not be affected by this transition. If you receive your locals via antenna - you ARE affected and will need a DTV converter box for each TV that gets locals via an antenna.


The two categories are not mutually exclusive.

I receive locals via DBS ... I also receive locals OTA via antenna. I have several TVs that do not have ATSC tuners or satellite receivers. I need simple tuner boxes ... and no, I'm not going to replace perfectly good displays with "digital" TVs because of the digital transition. I'll get the tuner boxes.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

You and me both. If I need to replace a TV - I get one with a built in digital tuner, but I see no reason to throw out an otherwise perfectly fine $90 19" Walmart TV that's only 2-3 years old when adding a $40 -$60 converter box will get it seeing digital as well.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

To be fair to Angie (and her brother)... there are already some escape clauses that have been discussed. Some low power stations still may not be required to go digital next year after all. Most of the big stations will, or have already done so, and those will cut their analog broadcast... but there will still be analog broadcasts in some markets even after the "cutoff" next Feb.

You kinda have to research within your specific market to know for sure what will happen to you and your local OTA channels next year.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

James Long said:


> The two categories are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> I receive locals via DBS ... I also receive locals OTA via antenna. I have several TVs that do not have ATSC tuners or satellite receivers. I need simple tuner boxes ... and no, I'm not going to replace perfectly good displays with "digital" TVs because of the digital transition. I'll get the tuner boxes.


Are there any stations which may be delivering their signal to DirecTV or Dish or Cable via analog transmission?

If so, there's a 3rd potential category - those who get their locals via DirecTV/Dish/Cable, and whose local station fails to meet the digital transition.

That number should be VERY minute, I would hope, but for some smaller locales, that possibility exists (I think).


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

scooper said:


> Angie - yes you can. Take your antenna cable, put it into the antenna input of the converter box. Take another piece of coax cable to go from the converter box RF output to your TVs RF input. Tune TV to channel 3 or 4 as required. Done.


Thank You thats all i need to know. My dad was so stupid not to get me an hdtv christmas of 06.


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## dave1234 (Oct 9, 2005)

FWIW: the FCC has ruled that stations that want to cut the analog signal now can do so early, before the cut off date(I beleive there are conditions that must be met). Anyone know of stations that are cutting analog early?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I have not heard of any yet - but that doesn't mean anything either. I expect most stations to keep analog going until at least January 2009, with some waiting until (figuartively) the last moment. You'll probably start hearing stories of this happening about then, anyway - my expectations.


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## allen98311 (Jan 19, 2006)

dave1234 said:


> FWIW: the FCC has ruled that stations that want to cut the analog signal now can do so early, before the cut off date(I beleive there are conditions that must be met). Anyone know of stations that are cutting analog early?


Channel 56 KWDK in the Seattle market has cut off their analog channel after a hardware failure of their analog transmitter in early 2006.


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## allen98311 (Jan 19, 2006)

When is Dish going to upgrade their equipment to receive digital signals in local markets? I know that they are receiving KHVC's digital signal for CH 45.2.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There are a few stations that have already ditched their analog channels. Very few.

We will know more about stations plans later in the year. The FCC is requiring stations to report their conversion plans including when they plan to cease analog transmission. Stations will have to give the public at least 30 days notice including on air public service announcements in the waining days of their individual analog service.

And E* will convert their feeds over to pick up the digital feeds of the stations. The main issue will be holdout stations that refuse to allow E* to carry their digital feeds or place special restrictions on carriage.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

allen98311 said:


> When is Dish going to upgrade their equipment to receive digital signals in local markets?


In this regard, we have at least 3 competing situations:

1. Station must begin broadcasting digital (if not already) so Dish can begin testing their reception of that station.

2. Dish and station must re-negotiate carriage rights for the digital signal, since their agreements to rebroadcast the analog signal do not automatically equate to permission to transmit the OTA digital.

3. Dish must buy & install equipment to receive the digital OTA channel and transmit it to Dish for uplink to the satellite.

Issue #1 is a show-stopper, for obvious reasons. Lots of channels still around that aren't digital yet... nothing Dish can do there.

Issue #2 is on both Dish and the stations to "get it done" in terms of rights, but there is more to consider here than the agreements for analog. With many stations choosing to multicast, will Dish want or be required to carry all subchannels? If a channel decides to just be digital HD (and not digital SD), will Dish have permission to "downgrade" the signal and provide to their SD-only customers or will only the HD signal be carried from then on?

Issue #3 is something that Dish can for the most part start anytime that #1 and #2 are done. They can (and for all we know have been already) transition equipment right now for any channel that is already digital, especially those with which Dish already has permission to carry their HD OTA channel.

Semi-bottom line... Lots of stuff has to happen here over the course of the year by Dish as well as local stations to make the transition smooth. Expect a nice mixed bag of smooth transitions and catastrophes at the last minute, depending on where you are.


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## jericho (May 29, 2002)

James Long said:


> And E* will convert their feeds over to pick up the digital feeds of the stations.


E* already converted to the digital feeds for SD Oklahoma City locals. The bad part about it is that on widescreen programs the sides are chopped off. Sometimes you can't even read words that are on the screen (credits, promo bugs, weather etc.) The analog feed has shows in a "pan and scan" format, which is formatted for 4:3 TV's, but when you take the widescreen feed and simple chop off the sides, some things don't look right.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I have two LP TV stations in my area that have been producing and feeding HD from the studios to the transmitters for the past couple of years but do the "crop" on their NTSC feeds (the HD was passed to the local cable company and is now being broadcast OTA on digital companion channels). Yeah, I complained to them about the cropping.

I believe it is time for E* to start transmitting signals in 16x9 format and let people decide for themselves if the pictures will be cropped or letterboxed. Even my 301 and 501 have a menu option to set the TV aspect ratio (which never made sense). E* needs to stop transmitting crop and letterboxed feeds (whenever possible) and give us the full picture as clear as possible. I'm not saying every image MUST be in HD ... but if a PPV is in letterbox they should NOT waste scan lines on black bars - they should send it in 16x9 and let our receivers sort it out. (Yes, I realize that not all movies are 16x9 ... but let us reclaim at least SOME of the quality lost when the picture is shrunk.)

BTW: I'm getting tired of seeing the slate before 4x3 cropped movies saying that the image has been changed to fit my screen. My screen isn't 4x3. What they have actually done is change the image so it DOESN'T fit _my_ screen. As more people buy HDTVs and 16x9 non HD sets, more people will see the irony in the process.


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## samhevener (Feb 23, 2006)

It will impact dish users. Not all dish users (including myself) have all their TVs connected to dish. Not all dish users receive their local channels on dish.


Slordak said:


> Dish customers are not impacted by this.


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## Yes616 (Sep 6, 2006)

I'm surprised nobody here mentioned the news about the Echostar TR-40 OTA digital converter box. This box, unlike the TR-50 does not have a DVR capability.

Wasn't this mentioned in a press release during CES?

Because the TR-50 is a DVR, it is not eligable for the governments $40 rebate program.

The TR-40 is just a plain old OTA digital converter hence it will be eligable for the rebate. A $40.00 price was mentioned as well so the cost would be nothing.

All households will be entitled to 2 $40.00 rebate coupons so one could get 2 TR-40's for free.

OK I just found a link to this news.. http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/hands-on-with-the-echostar-tr-40-and-tr-50-converter-boxes/


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## PghGuy (Oct 13, 2006)

This whole thing is confusing for me...

My HDTV does have dual NTSC and ATSC tuners and I receive all my locals through the VIP622 so I understand that none of them will be impacted. However, I also still have basic cable (was cheaper to keep basic cable with cable internet than cable internet alone). I am also running the basic cable directly into my tv as a second source (I don't watch it all that often but it is a nice back-up if the dish signal is lost).

Since my tv does have the dual tuners, will any of the channels I receive from cable be impacted by this? I also noticed that I receive about 10 HD channels from my cable connection as well (and some of them are channels that are not even part of the basic line-up).

Thanks for any clarification on this...


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

PghGuy said:


> This whole thing is confusing for me...
> 
> My HDTV does have dual NTSC and ATSC tuners and I receive all my locals through the VIP622 so I understand that none of them will be impacted. However, I also still have basic cable (was cheaper to keep basic cable with cable internet than cable internet alone). I am also running the basic cable directly into my tv as a second source (I don't watch it all that often but it is a nice back-up if the dish signal is lost).
> 
> ...


If your TV does not have a QAM tuner, you will not receive digital CABLE signals via a straight COAX cable you will need a box which will be provided to you from the cable company...if you have a QAM tuner in your TV now you should be recieving HD local feeds, KDKA, WPXI, WPGH, PBS, all the weather plus junk, digital music, ESPN, ESPN2 etc...but noting from the "digital Comcast tier, I think its about 72 digital and 35 analog if I remember correctly with basic cable" if it does this may be as simple as going to the TV menu and auto programming or scanning it will take about 10 min or so but in the end you should recieve both Analog and Digital channels, again provided you have a QAM tuner in your TV.


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## PghGuy (Oct 13, 2006)

LinkNuc said:


> If your TV does not have a QAM tuner, you will not receive digital CABLE signals via a straight COAX cable you will need a box which will be provided to you from the cable company...if you have a QAM tuner in your TV now you should be recieving HD local feeds, KDKA, WPXI, WPGH, PBS, all the weather plus junk, digital music, ESPN, ESPN2 etc...but noting from the "digital Comcast tier, I think its about 72 digital and 35 analog if I remember correctly with basic cable" if it does this may be as simple as going to the TV menu and auto programming or scanning it will take about 10 min or so but in the end you should recieve both Analog and Digital channels, again provided you have a QAM tuner in your TV.


I don't believe I have a QAM tuner, but I do have an ATSC tuner. I receive all the digital music, all the local HD feeds and even some HD feeds from other local stations not in my area, also the weather plus for wtae, etc. however I don't get ESPN/ESPN2 in HD.

What exactly will I get through my cable connection once this goes into effect?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Your TV has a QAM tuner if you're getting all that via the cable company. The real issue is how much of that will remain in unencrypted, clear QAM.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

PghGuy said:


> I don't believe I have a QAM tuner, but I do have an ATSC tuner. I receive all the digital music, all the local HD feeds and even some HD feeds from other local stations not in my area, also the weather plus for wtae, etc. however I don't get ESPN/ESPN2 in HD.
> 
> What exactly will I get through my cable connection once this goes into effect?


1st what is the make/model of your TV, that would help

You must have a QAM if you are getting all of that from Comcast, I would periodically do an "auto-tune" from your TV menu as to pick up new digital and HD stations...with a QAM tuner you need not have any converter box, if it is true that you only have ATSC (which doesn't seem sthe case) then Comcast will provide you a cable box when the time arises.

Now you will only be able to recieve unscrambled or "clear"-QAM channels such as the broadcast stations and whatever else Comcast wants to make unscrambled (all most all people can recieve a HD feed via cable with a QAM tuner now, but cable companies do not advertise that)...otherwise your will need a box or a cable card to unscramble the signal, expect the locals and a few others such as QVC, lol to remain clear-QAM

Are U confused yet?


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## PghGuy (Oct 13, 2006)

LinkNuc said:


> *1st what is the make/model of your TV, that would help*
> 
> You must have a QAM if you are getting all of that from Comcast, I would periodically do an "auto-tune" from your TV menu as to pick up new digital and HD stations...with a QAM tuner you need not have any converter box, if it is true that you only have ATSC (which doesn't seem sthe case) then Comcast will provide you a cable box when the time arises.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate the help, thanks.

make/model is Pioneer Plasma PDP-6070HD

not sure if this means anything, but the HD cable channels use 4 digits after the decimal for the channel (in other words, CBS might come in 107.1234, NBC might come in 98.6543, etc).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

A reminder: CABLE SYSTEMS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO GO DIGITAL.

It is up to local cable systems to provide signals to their customers. Only the over the air broadcast of analog TV by full power stations will be prohibited as of February 2009. Cable systems CAN, and many will, continue to provide analog channels to analog tuners via their systems (they will receive a digital signal and convert it to analog on their system). This will help lessen the impact of transition.


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## dave1234 (Oct 9, 2005)

Yes616 said:


> I'm surprised nobody here mentioned the news about the Echostar TR-40 OTA digital converter box. This box, unlike the TR-50 does not have a DVR capability.
> 
> Wasn't this mentioned in a press release during CES?
> 
> ...


It should also be noted the TR-40 will not output a HD signal. It will only output a downcoverted NTSC signal.


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## Yes616 (Sep 6, 2006)

dave1234 said:


> It should also be noted the TR-40 will not output a HD signal. It will only output a downcoverted NTSC signal.


Well I don't think anyone expected to get HD from their old analogue sets. Well, maybe just a couple.. lol

The OTA analogue folks should be happy as they all probably will end up with more channels if you count the digital sub-channels.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Yes616 said:


> The OTA analogue folks should be happy as they all probably will end up with more channels if you count the digital sub-channels.


It wouldn't surprise me to someday see, as an example, a scrambled USA feed on an NBC local's subchannel with a subscription box of some kind available.


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## Kevin_F (Apr 22, 2002)

I understand about the converter box. What I haven't heard discussed is the antenna situation. If I am receiving VHF OTA, will I also need to replace the antenna if it is VHF only. The Government digital converter program never seems to address this issue.


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## Art7220 (Feb 4, 2004)

Remember that local stations that go digital may encrypt their signal. As ad revenue will not cover the full cost to go digital, stations will find subscriptions the only way to recoup their costs.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> It wouldn't surprise me to someday see, as an example, a scrambled USA feed on an NBC local's subchannel with a subscription box of some kind available.


That has been tried. The company is now out of business.



Art7220 said:


> Remember that local stations that go digital may encrypt their signal. As ad revenue will not cover the full cost to go digital, stations will find subscriptions the only way to recoup their costs.


It wouldn't surprise me if a station tried. Per FCC rules ONE station feed must be available free and unscrambled. If some station decided that their "free" feed would be SD and their HD feed would be subscription the MIGHT get away with it. If they decided their "free" feed was the weather loop/radar and the network feed would be subscription I doubt they would fare well before the FCC.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

James Long said:


> A reminder: CABLE SYSTEMS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO GO DIGITAL.
> 
> It is up to local cable systems to provide signals to their customers. Only the over the air broadcast of analog TV by full power stations will be prohibited as of February 2009. Cable systems CAN, and many will, continue to provide analog channels to analog tuners via their systems (they will receive a digital signal and convert it to analog on their system). This will help lessen the impact of transition.


But all are well as far as the big players, Comcast, TW, COX, Adelphia er Comcast TW,lol


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Kevin_F said:


> I understand about the converter box. What I haven't heard discussed is the antenna situation. If I am receiving VHF OTA, will I also need to replace the antenna if it is VHF only. The Government digital converter program never seems to address this issue.


That's your problem to address. All the converter box program is for is for the change in the tuner - anything else is your responsibility.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

PghGuy said:


> I really appreciate the help, thanks.
> 
> make/model is Pioneer Plasma PDP-6070HD
> 
> not sure if this means anything, but the HD cable channels use 4 digits after the decimal for the channel (in other words, CBS might come in 107.1234, NBC might come in 98.6543, etc).


Ok, so according to Pioneer and my own research it does not show to have QAM but does have a cable card slot which is another option with Comcast, It is indeed strange that you are getting QAM signals with an ATSC/NTSC tuner, but after further research, indeed you have a QAM tuner and will get all clear-QAM channels, but like I said do a periodic (once every couple of weeks) auto-tune...scan, etc

here's an excerpt from a 5070HD owner (the 50" version of your TV)

"the 5070 and all the xx70/71 Pioneer plasmas have both ATSC, NTSC, and a QAM tuner. The ATSC tuner tunes in over the air digital channels, which includes HD channels over the air. The NTSC tunes analog channels. The QAM tuner tunes digital 'in-the-clear' channels from your cable company.

I am subscribed to the basic cable tier of 9.99/month with Comcast. I plug in the cable to the back of my 6070, in Ant A. I do a scan in the setup menus. It pulls in tons of digital channels, including all the network HD channels as well as a few other bonus cable HD channels. It even pulls in many other digital channels such as HGTV, Food, ESPN, etc, basically all the channels you would get with the Comcast Silver package. It also pulls in the analog channels as well, but who wants to watch those? They suck.

All the digital channels are all mapped differently than you would expect. The channel numbers are 114-1, 114-2, 76-1, etc. You have to figure out yourself what each channel you pick up is. Your cable company won't tell you. There isn't a list posted online somewhere unless someone in your local area was kind enough to post it in your Local HDTV Forum on this board.

You then go into the TV Guide feature on the TV, and then remap all the channels to what you get in the scan. You have to figure out what is what. So initially, the TV Guide will show HGTV as say channel 166, which is what the cable company assigns the HGTV to when you use their box. However, the digital scan picks up this QAM channel as say 76-3. You remap channel 166 to 76-3 and you are good to go. Repeat this for all the channels that your scan finds. Turn off the ones you don't use in your TV guide. Now you have digital cable with the HD locals for 9.99/month. Yes it's a pain in the ass to set up.

Or, just pay 60 bucks a month plus for the cable box and the cable company's own proprietary TV guide."

Oh by the way, GO PENS!


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

scooper said:


> And you of course are ignoring him because he is wrong. I know you are ready to go


He is a 56 year old lady and I e-mailed her tons of articles on the subject. Her response: oh Paul this sounds crazy. So I stopped.

Let her watch snow:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

Paul Secic said:


> He is a 56 year old lady and I e-mailed her tons of articles on the subject. Her response: oh Paul this sounds crazy. So I stopped.
> 
> Let her watch snow:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


My Grandparents (77) completely understand and me Pap says , well its about time I thought it was supposed to be 2007, lol...they are excited to go shopping for a new TV, and I am requested to go with, I love harassing (er I mean asking questions to) Show Room Floor personnel...


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Paul Secic said:


> He is a 56 year old lady and I e-mailed her tons of articles on the subject. Her response: oh Paul this sounds crazy. So I stopped.
> 
> Let her watch snow:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You can lead a horse to water,...but you can't make them drink. :lol: At least you tried.

My mother-in-law is strictly OTA in Kansas City, and she was also well informed about needing a box. Between the wife and me, we got her to sign up for her coupons.

OTOH -my Mom is strictly on cable - she doesn't need to do anything.


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## PghGuy (Oct 13, 2006)

LinkNuc said:


> Ok, so according to Pioneer and my own research it does not show to have QAM but does have a cable card slot which is another option with Comcast, It is indeed strange that you are getting QAM signals with an ATSC/NTSC tuner, but after further research, indeed you have a QAM tuner and will get all clear-QAM channels, but like I said do a periodic (once every couple of weeks) auto-tune...scan, etc
> 
> here's an excerpt from a 5070HD owner (the 50" version of your TV)
> 
> ...


this makes sense now (I like you could not see anywhere on the pioneer website that this tv had a QAM tuner). What you outlined above is exactly what I am doing now with basic cable. It is a pain to set up, infact I decided to stop remapping the channels since the cable company will periodically move the channels anyway (I guess they want to make it as difficult for us to receive these clear channels).

Major kudos for your time and effort in helping me with this....and I second your comment about the PENS (was just at the game on Monday...they do look good this year!  )


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

finniganps said:


> Your brother is wrong. The delays are over and it is happening without any further delays. As previously stated, for people who have an active Dish box connected for their programming, there will be no impact.


http://www.news.com/Airwaves,-Web-power-at-auction/2100-1039_3-6227085.html?tag=nefd.top

It's really happening this time!


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## SHS (Jan 8, 2003)

James Long said:


> A reminder: CABLE SYSTEMS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO GO DIGITAL.
> 
> It is up to local cable systems to provide signals to their customers. Only the over the air broadcast of analog TV by full power stations will be prohibited as of February 2009. Cable systems CAN, and many will, continue to provide analog channels to analog tuners via their systems (they will receive a digital signal and convert it to analog on their system). This will help lessen the impact of transition.


That wrong James

Cable systems have in till 2012 for now some may try to do ADS (analog digital simulcast). 
To keep providing for the analog users, the cable companies will have two choices, either provide its subscribers with converter boxes or convert the digital SD/HD signal to analog SD and provide it across the lines.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

That's wrong SHS ... I was talking about 2009.


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## mr_mark_taylor (Nov 20, 2005)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Are there any stations which may be delivering their signal to DirecTV or Dish or Cable via analog transmission?
> 
> If so, there's a 3rd potential category - those who get their locals via DirecTV/Dish/Cable, and whose local station fails to meet the digital transition.
> 
> That number should be VERY minute, I would hope, but for some smaller locales, that possibility exists (I think).


if they don't/won't switch to digital by next febuary, then they won't exist anymore..so yeah, some smaller ion/religious/independent stations may end up on a digital subchannel of another channel or cease to exist all together


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

well, i will have to buy 2 more converter boxes without the coupons now. my application has been denied for 2 more boxes for 2 more tvs that we have.
I will not buy a New tv.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mr_mark_taylor said:


> if they don't/won't switch to digital by next febuary, then they won't exist anymore..so yeah, some smaller ion/religious/independent stations may end up on a digital subchannel of another channel or cease to exist all together


Low power stations are NOT required to be digital by the deadline. So if the smaller station is an LP they can live for more than the year that is left.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

angiecopus said:


> well, i will have to buy 2 more converter boxes without the coupons now. my application has been denied for 2 more boxes for 2 more tvs that we have.
> I will not buy a New tv.


You DO realize that the coupons were for a MAXIMUM of TWO COUPONS per HOUSEHOLD ?

So yes - if you applied for a total of 4 - the request(s) for the last two coupons would be denied.

However, there is nothing preventing you from buying additional coupon boxes - you just won't get the $40 from the government to help you buy them.


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## Milleruszk (Apr 12, 2005)

So in Feb 09 nothing will really change for Dish subscribers if they are receiving all of their TV signals from Dish. At that time all TV will be broadcast in digital. Will Dish still charge a premium to receive these channels in HD? Of course right? Which means that every cable company or satellite company will receive a big increase in order to provide their customers with the same product. When HD becomes the standard why should the providers receive extra for providing the standard? Am I wrong?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

We're not sure - but I would expect a SD version of the locals to go exactly where the analog versions are now, with HD version requiring the HD receiver / HD Packs.

HOWEVER - the above is just my speculation - so keep that in mind.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

What I wonder is what they will do to the programming that is only offered in HD (like local channels) but Dish has an SD slot for? Will they offer it letter box or did I read somewhere that some provider as actually chopping off the sides to provide 4:3.

If a channel is only offered in HD that means that bandwidth could be recovered because the SD version of that channel would no longer be to there to uplink.... just a thought.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

HobbyTalk said:


> What I wonder is what they will do to the programming that is only offered in HD (like local channels) but Dish has an SD slot for? Will they offer it letter box or did I read somewhere that some provider as actually chopping off the sides to provide 4:3.
> 
> If a channel is only offered in HD that means that bandwidth could be recovered because the SD version of that channel would no longer be to there to uplink.... just a thought.


My guess is that it will be converted to SD somehow, format TBD. I've seen that post as well about the OKC digital locals.


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

Whether the program is delivered in digital or analog, when it switches in 09, whatever they are doing now is more than likely what will continue. Some programs will continue to be SD for a long time.

For current and future HD programming going to SD receivers, whatever they are doing now, will more than likely continue just as it has for the past couple years. Because people with SD TV's and SD receivers will still get the same shows they've always received.


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## akron05 (Dec 14, 2005)

Paul Secic said:


> My cousin in Buffalo N.Y. says they can't do it and won't do anything on 02-17-09 but watch snow, move rabbit ears.
> 
> Digital- It's happening!!!!!!


They "can't" do it? What do they mean? Can't afford it? Are too stubborn to join the 21st century?


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## akron05 (Dec 14, 2005)

HDMe said:


> To be fair to Angie (and her brother)... there are already some escape clauses that have been discussed. Some low power stations still may not be required to go digital next year after all. Most of the big stations will, or have already done so, and those will cut their analog broadcast... but there will still be analog broadcasts in some markets even after the "cutoff" next Feb.
> 
> You kinda have to research within your specific market to know for sure what will happen to you and your local OTA channels next year.


I think it depends on what various areas decide to do, but I think a lot of the translators will still run on analog, if they decide it's cheaper to pick up a digital signal and convert than it is to put up an ATSC translator.


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## akron05 (Dec 14, 2005)

Paul Secic said:


> He is a 56 year old lady and I e-mailed her tons of articles on the subject. Her response: oh Paul this sounds crazy. So I stopped.
> 
> Let her watch snow:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


It's amazing how some people just don't seem to understand it.


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

Good news, my brother has ordered two more coupons for his address, and we can buy two more converter boxes for our household.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Wow, you mean you are letting everyone else (US tax payers) buy your extra converter boxes for you? I would like to thank you for using my money to buy over your allotted amount.... is this any different then other types of public assistance fraud?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hopefully there won't be too much fraud. Getting additional coupons via another address will prevent that other address from getting coupons. The biggest problem I see are "made up" addresses. But since the coupons will be delivered to the address given it has to be deliverable - and I hope that the coupons are being sent in a way that the USPS will RETURN any coupons that are not deliverable to an accurate address. There has to be some checks and balances.

The next wave of deceit will be when they run out of coupons available without the satellite/cable restriction. It will be easy to lie on the application and still get coupons. It is a messy program. Fortunately it is being paid for by the spectrum purchasers.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Per the dtv2009.gov web site - https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx

*Can I apply for someone who is unable to apply for themselves, such as an elderly parent?

Yes, but you will need to use their home address which will be validated for eligibility. Only two coupons can be used per U.S. household address, and the coupons are intended for the resident of that household.*

In the end it doesn't matter if taxes or the spectum purchasers are fronting the money for the program, in the end it is the consumers that will pay for it. The spectum purchasers aren't just going to eat that cost, it will be passed on.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

angiecopus said:


> Excuse me, but my brother does exist, My brother could buy the converter boxes himself in Akron Ohio and then he could bring them to us. that would not be cheating the goverment. it would be helping us, so we don't have to buy new tvs


I didn't say he didn't exist ... so take it down a couple of notches. OK?



HobbyTalk said:


> Per the dtv2009.gov web site - https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx
> 
> *Can I apply for someone who is unable to apply for themselves, such as an elderly parent?
> 
> ...


Angie and her brother are likely not the first to skirt the system ... they won't be the last. As far as passing the costs on, for those spectrum purchasers it is just part of the purchase price. They would have paid the same whether or not a converter box program was funded by their payments. The people who will end up paying THEIR costs will be whomever uses their services. Not everyone in general. I can live with that.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Maybe there should be a policy that says if you apply for and use converter box coupons when you could have afforded them (or don't even need them), then you should have to donate time and or food to a local shelter for the homeless.


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## akron05 (Dec 14, 2005)

angiecopus said:


> Excuse me, but my brother does exist, My brother could buy the converter boxes himself in Akron Ohio and then he could bring them to us. that would not be cheating the goverment. it would be helping us, so we don't have to buy new tvs


Why not just ask the rest of us here to buy you a couple converters? That's basically what you're doing?


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

angiecopus said:


> Excuse me, but my brother does exist, My brother could buy the converter boxes himself in Akron Ohio and then he could bring them to us. ...


Why not fraudulently obtain some more coupons and then sell the converters to neighbors without coupons for say $20?


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Also consider that there is a limited number of coupons. That means it is very possible that they will be depriving someone else from their rightful coupons. I would suspect that older viewers that don't understand all this analog/digital mumbo-jumbo will be those that would be the last to even know they will need them and would the ones that won't have them available to them when they do figure out they need them.


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

and then there are the people who will buy the Converter boxes and Sell them on E-bay.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

angiecopus said:


> and then there are the people who will buy the Converter boxes and Sell them on E-bay.


Yes, there will be people trying to turn the coupons into cash. I'm sure you will see coupons for sale on eBay unless eBay itself prevents those sales. (Even though the rules say "The coupon has no cash value. It shall be illegal to sell, duplicate or tamper with the coupon. ")

Two wrongs don't make a right. How many converter boxes does the government _owe_ each household? The law says two ... and further limits that to "while supplies last". No, not every household in the US will get _a_ coupon - let alone more than two as you have worked out with your brother.

If you think that it is wrong that households are limited to two converters you need to talk to your congressman to see if they can change the law.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> Yes, there will be people trying to turn the coupons into cash. I'm sure you will see coupons for sale on eBay unless eBay itself prevents those sales. (Even though the rules say "The coupon has no cash value. It shall be illegal to sell, duplicate or tamper with the coupon. ")
> 
> Two wrongs don't make a right. How many converter boxes does the government _owe_ each household? The law says two ... and further limits that to "while supplies last". No, not every household in the US will get _a_ coupon - let alone more than two as you have worked out with your brother.
> 
> If you think that it is wrong that households are limited to two converters you need to talk to your congressman to see if they can change the law.


The coupons are like rebates associated with electronics - the government ought to be sending all enough money to buy two converters or use towards buying a new tv, if they really think they ought to spend anything on this, which I don't. Instead, we'll see maybe of 10% claims made, like the electronics people. I personally don't see any moral issue here. It's politics.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It's only TV ... nothing to get bent out of shape about.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Angie - you're reminding me of the attitude alot of lower-end taxpayers have about filing Head of Household / Earned Income credit - It's whatever I want it to be - not what my circumstances are. I SAID there is nothing preventing you from obtaining more than 2 coupon boxes - I also said that only 2 coupons per household - not quite the same thing.

I fully expect there will be people who get their coupons, then either (A) try to sell the coupons, or (B) buy boxes with their coupons and then sell the boxes. BY THE RULES - A is verbotten. B would be legal, although not really what is intended.


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## akron05 (Dec 14, 2005)

angiecopus said:


> Well i did it i just emailed one congressman, one senator and someone else.
> and i also asked to consider making a cheap or even free high speed internet for people who live in rural areas and cant afford it.
> 
> i am very upset with the comments made by all of you. i will just tell my brother not to bother and cancel the orders. i will just let my tv go dark. i guess instead of watching tv in bed by feb 2009 i willl have to fight with my parents to watch digital tv.
> ...


If you can't come up with ~ $75 in the next TWELVE MONTHS...then maybe you ought to be worrying about more than watching television. Just my $0.02. Sorry for the rudeness but I think some "tough love" is needed here.


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## angiecopus (May 18, 2004)

Drop the subject ok


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> It's only TV ... nothing to get bent out of shape about.


Ok, James, you finally pushed my rant button!

It's Only TV....

In 1878 home entertainment did not include radio, tv, movies, recorded music, or the internet. People had the options of getting together to talk, sing and play musical instruments, play games, quilt, etc. Solitary activities could include some of the aforementioned, plus reading. They got their news from newspapers and magazines. To see performers of any kind, they had to leave their homes, but for most people the renowned performers of the day generally were out of reach without a significant amount of money and time devoted to travel.

Fifty years later, 1928, things had begun to change. Within the home people could hear professional performers on phonograph records and radios. They could get almost instant news on the radio and a much greater percentage could see some renowned performers of the day at a movie theater.

Twenty years later, 1948, home entertainment had shifted. In most homes, records and radio had begun to dominate entertainment activities. The local movie theater had become an important communal center for experiencing professional performances on a shared basis.

By 1958, just ten years later, television had changed all of that. Two year later Jack Kennedy and Richard Nixon solidified the political implications of mass media first used effectively by Roosevelt and Hitler.

It really took 40 years, 1998, for the internet to begin to be an additional home entertainment and mass communication option. It hasn't replaced TV, however, as _the_ significant medium. And two or more Americas exist relative to these home entertainment and mass media delivery systems.

My kids and their kids live in urban areas. They have ready access to all the out-of-home alternatives - concerts, theater, theme parks, etc. They also have access to all the tv options: off-the-air, cable, satellite, and the new phone companies. And they have access to the highest speed internet options.

For many Americans who - by fate or choice - live in rural areas, satellite tv is the only access to the home entertainment choices available to their urban cousins. Yet it is the barely tolerated step-child of the media industry, a concession to both the appearance of fairness in free enterprise and the need to access the rural market. The same discrepancy exists relative to high speed internet. These times are most certainly not like the 1930's when the federal government deliberately facilitated through regulation and funding universal access to electricity and telephone service, as it did for highways in the 1950's.

When I got my first Echostar C-band dish in 1988, I really enjoyed access to regional news feeds and Canadian television - it opened up new windows on the world. On October 17, 1989, at 5:04 pm PDT, a major earthquake known as the Loma Prieta Earthquake struck the San Francisco Bay Area and the Monterey Bay Area. We were living well north of the impacted area but had three adult children in the San Francisco area and a parent in Monterey County. The SFO stations went off the air and the phone system did its usual crash leaving us with no information. But with my C-band satellite we could scan and get live satellite feeds from nearby Sacramento stations, as well as national networks because they were broadcasting the World Series from Candlestick Park. At the time, I thought: "Wow, this is the way to go. What a public benefit an open satellite system could become in times of crises." Plus the possibility of improving understanding between people from different locations seemed endless though we'd have to pay for it.

Not long after that, access to local feeds begin to disappear off C-band. Canadian tv was blocked by American networks by legal means without any consideration of the moral issue of limiting access to information. I finally switched to the small dish when the C-band box failed. Through that, in the 9-11 situation, I could get at least local takes from NY stations without having the drama queens and kings of network tv filter the news.

But that came to a screeching halt in order to protect the economic interests of "fictitious people" known a corporations that now thought they "owned" the airwaves the government had licensed to them on behalf of me, originally with strict public service requirements which had been eliminated.

Most satellite users now can get the Fishing and Playboy Channels if they want. But most of us have no access to federally licensed local programming in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and Florida. No one seems to care that if we are *prohibited* by federal law from being allowed to see what the locals in these important presidential primary states are seeing on their tv. It isn't that it couldn't be delivered, we are prohibited from seeing it.

Yes, it is only television to some. But not to me. It is my principal home entertainment, with access not only to tv shows but movies and concerts. It is still a principal source of crises news. Not regular news, though. The style of reporting daily news is, with government approval, controlled by the preferences of an Australian whose only real concern is that media make him richer and his opinions more powerful.

So for daily news I have to depend on the internet now. And I'm using it more for entertainment. But the government has already allowed the same conglomerates to gain control of that delivery system. And while they haven't quite yet figured out what to do with it, they are rapidly learning to squeeze it for money and control it for power....

The one and only advantage of those dependant on satellite tv service should be access to distant networks. "They" took it away. Imagine if the Viacoms of the world could triple cable profits and double their related networks advertising profits by offering network programming from all four time zones in all four time zones while not fatally impacting the local stations. We would all be getting "distants" because federal regulations would be changed not on behalf of the public, but on behalf of corporate interests.

Yeah, it's only TV.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Well phrelin, that's an interesting post. It is a shame that it has more to do with other issues than the converter box program and unconnected analog TVs becoming signal free.

BTW: You are NOT prohibited by Federal Law from receiving out of market stations. The laws were and are _permissive_ ... they allow providers to provide a service under certain guidelines _without the permission of the stations being transmitted_. For more information check out our Legislative and Regulatory Issues forum ... read the threads there or start a thread asking your questions.

In fact, since this thread isn't unique to Dish Network it probably should be in that forum as well ... but THIS THREAD should remain on topic for DTV conversion.

:backtotop


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I agree about the thread and am aware of the other one. _*This thread *_is about the *digital mandate in '09 *which involves those stupid coupons and which is a regulatory issue, in the end.

It probably should be moved.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Well, I really don't think that if all the coupons are not taken the new owners of the analog band are going to cut the amount of the cost they will pass on to the consumer. That is why there is a set amount they already know how much they are going to spend and, if they get lucky and get to spend less do you really think that they are going to pass pure profit on to the customer?


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

angiecopus said:


> well, i will have to buy 2 more converter boxes without the coupons now. my application has been denied for 2 more boxes for 2 more tvs that we have.
> I will not buy a New tv.


Sir:

If you're hooked up Dish then you clearly don't deserve coupons. Go to Wallmart & buy a 19" digital set!


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Paul Secic said:


> Sir:
> 
> If you're hooked up Dish then you clearly don't deserve coupons. Go to Wallmart & buy a 19" digital set!


I find that to be a harsh statement. Recall that each STB costs real money monthly so maintaining Dish on all 5 TVs Angie's family has might be more than they choose to spend on TV.

I have one TV that is not hooked up to DIRECTV. It is used by a person who can't handle the complexities of a STB, so she is hooked to basic cable (almost free with Internet service.)

I could easily consider requesting one coupon for her if she didn't have that basic cable; she fits the profile almost perfectly. I likely wouldn't as I don't need the hand out, and she likely wouldn't be able to handle that configuration either. I'd likely buy her a whole new TV.

I'd like everyone to please consider Angie's feelings and play nice. If she lived with her brother instead of her parents, she could qualify for two. I gots no problem with her arrangement, the transition will be onerous enough for some people.

Thanks,
Tom


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I beleive that everybody who applies on the internet "deserves" one. I did not see any type of income requirements or anything to qualify for the coupons. I really doubt that all the coupons will be given out anyways but, If they are and some are given to people that don't actually need them well, thats ok too. The airways are owned by the american people, not the FCC, they are there to manage them. So when our managers decide to sell OUR property I do not think that any taxpaying american that chooses to use this program is overstepping their bounds at all. They are only taking the only kind of payment offered for the sale of THEIR property. Also It is perfectly ok for Angie's brother to give her his converters if he so chooses.


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