# Electric Utility Smart Meters



## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Electric utility "smart meters" are becoming an issue with regard to privacy and accuracy issues, both nationally and locally.

Northern California's ubiquitous PG&E (aka Pacific Gas & Electric) has a problem as explained in this story:


> PG&E now faces a revolt in Bakersfield over the SmartMeters, which the company has been installing throughout its territory since late 2006. Angry homeowners repeatedly booed PG&E representatives during a public hearing on the meters earlier this month. State Senate Majority Leader Dean Florez has demanded a moratorium on their installation. State energy regulators last week agreed to investigate the meters' accuracy, although they stopped short of agreeing to a moratorium.
> 
> "People think these meters are fraud meters," said Florez, D-Shafter (Kern County). "They feel they're being defrauded. They're getting no benefit from these things."
> 
> ...


If that isn't enough controversy, a search came up with this article from the Phildelphia Inquirer which raises privacy issues:


> But the new generation of smart meters that Pennsylvania utilities are required to install will produce far more data, generating readings at least hourly. The meters could record material so frequently that power flows could be interpreted like DNA to reveal unique electrical signatures of individual appliances.
> 
> Some experts imagine an Orwellian future in a carbon-constrained world, where consumers are cited for excessive electricity use, or divorce lawyers comb through meter records and ask: Who used the hot tub while the spouse was away?
> 
> ...


 According to PG&E's web site:


> The solid-state digital SmartMeter™ electric meter records hourly meter reads and then transmits the reads to a network device via an electric radio frequency (RF) mesh network. RF mesh technology allows meters and other sensing devices to access the network by securely routing data via nearby meters and relay devices. The electric system supports two-way communication between the meter and PG&E that can be upgraded remotely providing the ability to implement future innovations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My reaction to reading this was more questioning than "hey, a technological leap." There's no small amount of irony in realizing that these things represent privacy issues and also may not be accurate.

What I do know is that that terrain is the least of the problems, in our area and at my house, when dealing with RF signals. One Christmas season someone's decoration control system knocked out our area's cable internet. I can't use controllers and networking devices that go through our home's electrical wiring. There's just too much noise.

I know these things probably are designed with self-correcting error checking algorithms. But that only goes so far. And then there's the issue of data privacy.

I'm just wondering if others here have given thought to these devices.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

I don't know about the privacy issue. Most of these companies operate more or less as public utilities even though they are privately owned. There have alredy been some drug cases made with the assistance of electric utilities when they can show abnormally high usage caused by 'grow' lights for indoor marijuana grow operations. As for excess power consumption, interruptable meters have been around for a while, but their installation is by request of the customer for things like pools and HVAC units.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

I dont really see the issues TBH.

I really dont care how accurate they can tell how much power I am using. In any case I am paying for it and can use as much as I like. Them taking more readings does not mean I pay any more or less cause in the end I still use the same amount.

Frankly I think it would be cool if I could see daily or hourly stats on my usage. Throw a nice web interface on it and it could be very useful and neat.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Personally, I'm all for the new devices and would've had one installed. However, Pennsylvania is about 5 years behind the west coast states

=========
Quoting from the Philly article: And after a Peco meter analysis revealed winter consumption had grown dramatically in some North Philadelphia neighborhoods where customers switched to electrical heaters, the utility last year replaced 17 overloaded transformers in danger of failing.
----------
North Philly is a disadvantaged area, and this is a great use of the technology. Lord knows our friends up there don't need their homes burning down due to a fire caused by a transformer failure.


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## Go Beavs (Nov 18, 2008)

Grentz said:


> I dont really see the issues TBH.
> 
> I really dont care how accurate they can tell how much power I am using. In any case I am paying for it and can use as much as I like. Them taking more readings does not mean I pay any more or less cause in the end I still use the same amount.
> 
> Frankly I think it would be cool if I could see daily or hourly stats on my usage. Throw a nice web interface on it and it could be very useful and neat.


Yeah, I like to know what my current usage is too, how much more my TV uses, my freezer, extra fridge, etc, etc.

What scares me about this stuff is then they come into your home (via network), turn stuff off, change your thermostat, tax you extra for certain appliances.

Just too much control for my liking.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

There's no indication that they can do any of that. All of the appliances would have to be addressable for any remote control. Newer high end appliances can be networked for home control systems by the owner's command or scheduling, but I've never seen any indication of utility control other than interruptable meters.


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## Go Beavs (Nov 18, 2008)

SayWhat? said:


> There's no indication that they can do any of that. All of the appliances would have to be addressable for any remote control. Newer high end appliances can be networked for home control systems by the owner's command or scheduling, but I've never seen any indication of utility control other than interruptable meters.


No, I suppose you're right. It just seems that this is the direction were headed in with the new "smart grid".


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

GoBeavs,
Do you know how much generated power is wasted today because we don't have a smart grid?

Take Bonneville in your part of the world - their dams keep producing hydro energy at a "let's guess" rate. Wouldn't it be great if they could send more H2O down the Columbia if there wasn't any electric demand at that time?

Electricity is a use it or lose it proposition.


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## Go Beavs (Nov 18, 2008)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> GoBeavs,
> Do you know how much generated power is wasted today because we don't have a smart grid?
> 
> Take Bonneville in your part of the world - their dams keep producing hydro energy at a "let's guess" rate. Wouldn't it be great if they could send more H2O down the Columbia if there wasn't any electric demand at that time?
> ...


Or they could store it behind the dam for later use.

What I have trouble understanding is where the power is going if it's being generated but not used. There must be a massive amount of heat being generated somewhere?


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## FHSPSU67 (Jan 12, 2007)

I used to work for an electric utility and I can assure everyone that all electric generation is highly monitored and generation output controlled to match load. You cannot over-generate at any time, otherwise 60 HZ frequency would go through the roof - actually all generating units would trip off-line due to over-frequency.

As far as electric grids, all transmission grids (greater than 115 KV or 69 KV in limited cases) are monitored for voltage, frequency, and MW and MVAR loading. I honestly don't know where the Smart Grid terminology came from, but it really doesn't pertain to knowing much more about the grids than is now known.

Sure, refinements can be made with more advanced EMS's (Energy Monitoring Systems), but what I've seen from my own experience is that "cheap is king" and where we spent close to $10 Million for the system we put on-line in 1990, that same utility (under different ownership, of course) is trying to do the same type of monitoring for less than $1.5 Million.

As far as hydroelectric dams, they are the cheapest generation and therefore are considered "base-load" and run continuously when available.


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## Fontano (Feb 7, 2008)

Privacy issue? Seriously?

I actually just got in my mail and offer to switch over to the Smart Meters.

I wish there was a way that I could calculate before the Switch if it would be worth the savings that could happen. There is an install fee and a monthly service fee.

When I look at our power usage in a given day, we are already pretty efficient in our engergy usage. We do most of the high cost engergy events in the evening.

I just don't understand how this is a privacy issue.

Honestly, IMHO this privacy fear is just getting way out of control.

Obviously I don't want my credit card numbers and social security numbers out there, that is one type of privacy.

But I have absolutely 100% no issues with:
- Data being collected on what type of TV shows I watch, because I LIKE those shows and want to see them on TV
- Data being collected on how and when I use my electricity, because if that can lead to a way to improve the grid and lower my costs, great.
- Data being collected on how and what I shop for, great because that will lead to better products that I want

And so on. This fear that everyone is out there to get a hold of my life, is just counter productive. IMHO


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## FHSPSU67 (Jan 12, 2007)

Go Beavs said:


> Or they could store it behind the dam for later use.
> 
> What I have trouble understanding is where the power is going if it's being generated but not used. There must be a massive amount of heat being generated somewhere?


Correct thinking, the answer is that there is always sufficient demand to keep the hydros that are available running. If not (due to catastrophe, for example) all hydo plants have full-capacity bypass valves to allow sufficient water flowing bypassing the generators and to maintain the eco-health of the rivers, streams, and dams. The number one rule of power operations is that load must match gereration at all times.

As a side note, it is even economical in some cases to pump (at night) water from below the generators to a dam above the generators to be used when electric rates are higher during daylight hours.


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## HIPAR (May 15, 2005)

I would think a dam power house works something like this:

I turn on a light and that places an additional load on the turbine causing it to rotate slower. A control system detects a change in the AC frequency and adjusts a valve to increase the pressure restoring the rotational speed.

Way back when, I toured through a dam powerhouse. The control room used two clocks, one synchronized to with the Naval Observatory and the second driven from the dynamos. The operator would adjust the water flow to minimize the time difference. Not exactly a 'smart grid' but it worked. 

My AC synchronized electric clock was usually within three seconds of the time broadcast by NBS (now NIST) station WWV. 

--- CHAS


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

My utility company (Puget Sound Energy) offered to put monitoring devices on my electric heaters and water heater which would connect into my internet connection and send them information to help balance the supply to meet the demand. They even would give me a $50/year rebate. I didn't accept the offer.


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## FHSPSU67 (Jan 12, 2007)

HIPAR said:


> I would think a dam power house works something like this:
> 
> I turn on a light and that places an additional load on the turbine causing it to rotate slower. A control system detects a change in the AC frequency and adjusts a valve to increase the pressure restoring the rotational speed.
> 
> ...


Good example! Before the age of electronics this control was accomplished mechanically at the turbine/generator by a fly-ball governor.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'd like to recommend the book _Hot, Flat and Crowded_ by Thomas Friedman. I don't agree with everything he says but his ideas about being smarter about the way we use our planet's resources make a lot of sense.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Stuart - good choice.

I've heard Friedman say that even if global warming is 100% incorrect, protecting our resources is just plain good practice. Saves money, and saves resources.


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## itguy05 (Oct 24, 2007)

The only ones that scare me are the ones that use the Microsoft Ohm Platform. MS software has no business in critical infrastructure. Period, end of story, case closed.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Grentz said:


> I dont really see the issues TBH.
> 
> I really dont care how accurate they can tell how much power I am using. In any case I am paying for it and can use as much as I like. Them taking more readings does not mean I pay any more or less cause in the end I still use the same amount.
> 
> Frankly I think it would be cool if I could see daily or hourly stats on my usage. Throw a nice web interface on it and it could be very useful and neat.


Have I got a device for you !

http://www.theenergydetective.com/what/overview.html

I've got a TED5000 and in addition, we recently changed our electric billing from flatrate to a Time Of Use rate. Having TED was a real eyeopener on what our actual electricity use is. As expected - "laundry Sunday" is our day to go crazy (85+ KWH on most sundays), but we only spend less than 1 hour per day heating water on our electric tank WH otherwise. I'll fully admit that such a rate plan is NOT for everyone - it works for us because there is only the 2 of us. If you're comfortable working inside your electric service breaker panel, you can easily install this yourself. The latest version even communicates with Google's Powermeter so you can check your power use anywhere.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Hydro here on the east coast is used mostly for peaking rather than base load. And pumped storage is used in some of the lakes to take advantage of excess (typically nuclear) at night.

I worked for the large utility here in the 70s /early 80s doing research in smart meters and 'load shedding' -- example, turning off your water heater during peak hours for a monthly rebate.

We were reading meters in neighborhoods at 12 BAUD - yes 12 Baud, accross the power line and a 'communications server' at a substation could read all the meters in its area in a 30 day period - projected that is.

We got data from various houses in the test and could tell when people went to bed and then got back up and turned a light on, but trust me, it's not a privacy issue. . . they have more to do than snoop on your house.

The smart grid is the next step. . . being able to store excess energy from the solar panels or wind generator in the batteries of your EV . . .and have the utility use that battery power (and pay you back) is not a pipe dream. But it will take a while to implement.


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## pfp (Apr 28, 2009)

Grentz said:


> I dont really see the issues TBH.
> 
> I really dont care how accurate they can tell how much power I am using. In any case I am paying for it and can use as much as I like. Them taking more readings does not mean I pay any more or less cause in the end I still use the same amount.
> 
> Frankly I think it would be cool if I could see daily or hourly stats on my usage. Throw a nice web interface on it and it could be very useful and neat.


Just got a smart meter here and love that I can now see a graph of hourly usage.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I really think if the power companies gave out (at a reduced cost & installed) some sort of power meter inside your house, we'd see a 10/ 20 / 30% (pick a number) reduction in electric usage.

I know from driving a hybrid with a MPG meter, I've(along with the car) improved about 20%.

The TED product looks interesting.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

scooper said:


> Have I got a device for you !
> 
> http://www.theenergydetective.com/what/overview.html
> 
> I've got a TED5000 and in addition, we recently changed our electric billing from flatrate to a Time Of Use rate. Having TED was a real eyeopener on what our actual electricity use is. As expected - "laundry Sunday" is our day to go crazy (85+ KWH on most sundays), but we only spend less than 1 hour per day heating water on our electric tank WH otherwise. I'll fully admit that such a rate plan is NOT for everyone - it works for us because there is only the 2 of us. If you're comfortable working inside your electric service breaker panel, you can easily install this yourself. The latest version even communicates with Google's Powermeter so you can check your power use anywhere.


I got a ted 1000 and man what a RIP. It worked great until we realized that if we had even a 1 second power outage the TED would reset all the data and then recompile new data based on current usages. We where so perplexed when one day we saw the overall consumption for the first 20 days of the month was low then all of a sudden the next day the bill was up by 30%. Finally figured out that after a power Dip it just uses the current consumption and recalculates at that rate for 21 days. 
Called TED and they said hook it to a PC and have it monitor the current via USB! I responded is'nt that a waste of power having a OPC on 24/7, the guy chickled said there was nothing else that could be done it has no built in storage. I said it says so on your web page he said not for the collected energy usage.
BTW a UPS wont solve the problem.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

SayWhat? said:


> There's no indication that they can do any of that. All of the appliances would have to be addressable for any remote control. Newer high end appliances can be networked for home control systems by the owner's command or scheduling, but I've never seen any indication of utility control other than interruptable meters.


I have heard that in europe they have experimental systems being used in small towns that can shut off your power or restore it without them leaving the chair.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Sure, they can shut off all your power by killing the circuit remotely, but they can't kill an individual appliance inside your house.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

dreadlk said:


> I got a ted 1000 and man what a RIP. It worked great until we realized that if we had even a 1 second power outage the TED would reset all the data and then recompile new data based on current usages. We where so perplexed when one day we saw the overall consumption for the first 20 days of the month was low then all of a sudden the next day the bill was up by 30%. Finally figured out that after a power Dip it just uses the current consumption and recalculates at that rate for 21 days.
> Called TED and they said hook it to a PC and have it monitor the current via USB! I responded is'nt that a waste of power having a OPC on 24/7, the guy chickled said there was nothing else that could be done it has no built in storage. I said it says so on your web page he said not for the collected energy usage.
> BTW a UPS wont solve the problem.


A TED 5000 is still subject to not getting data when the power is off, but it stores it in non-volatile memory. It can also gets the date / time from an Internet NTP server (but right now - it has one heck of a time getting the correct day of the week). Also, the Footprints software is actually a WebPage
on the TED5000 Gateway, works with Windows, Macs and Linux.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Just ordered one!


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

In the Wall Street Journal this morning:



> The Obama administration is expected Tuesday to name 100 utility projects that will share $3.4 billion in federal stimulus funding to speed deployment of advanced technology designed to cut energy use and make the electric-power grid more robust.
> 
> When combined with funds from utility customers, the program is expected to inject more than $8 billion into grid modernization efforts nationally, administration officials said.
> 
> ...


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125663945180609871.html


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I came home from a trip to New England this past week to find that my meter had been swapped out for a smart meter.

My only annoyance was that the power company, Portland General Electric, didn't send a postcard. Admittedly the information may have been in the bill, but I don't often read the electric bill if everything seems to be in order.

PGE (as opposed to PG&E) has long talked about their desire to charge based on time of day and now they may be getting closer to either implementing it or not needing to do it.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

scooper said:


> A TED 5000 is still subject to not getting data when the power is off, but it stores it in non-volatile memory. It can also gets the date / time from an Internet NTP server (but right now - it has one heck of a time getting the correct day of the week). Also, the Footprints software is actually a WebPage
> on the TED5000 Gateway, works with Windows, Macs and Linux.


Are you sure it does not lose all the Data during a power outage? The 1000 loses everything and then recalculates it back based on the current consumption. IOW if you run your AC and all the power hogs 24/7 for 28 days and the TED 1000 says your bill is approx $350. If you have a 1 second power dip on the 29th day and for the next 2 days all you use is the lights, TV and No AC or anything else, the TED will now tell you your monthly bill will be $70. (Worthless)


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

dreadlk said:


> Are you sure it does not lose all the Data during a power outage? The 1000 loses everything and then recalculates it back based on the current consumption. IOW if you run your AC and all the power hogs 24/7 for 28 days and the TED 1000 says your bill is approx $350. If you have a 1 second power dip on the 29th day and for the next 2 days all you use is the lights, TV and No AC or anything else, the TED will now tell you your monthly bill will be $70. (Worthless)


I can unplug my TED5000 gateway and it does not lose data. I can kill the main breaker and the Ted5000 will not lose data. Any other questions ?


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Just installed T5000 today. . . interesting piece of instrumentation!


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

I saw the old TED, the new 5000 looks sweet. I dont need a display, the web access looks awesome.

Anyone find any deals cheaper than the $199 direct?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Grentz said:


> I saw the old TED, the new 5000 looks sweet. I dont need a display, the web access looks awesome.
> 
> Anyone find any deals cheaper than the $199 direct?


I don't think you'll find it cheaper.

Web access works fine - we do not have the standalone display and don't miss it at all. If you use Firefox (not the beta version) - there is a toolbar addin Ted the Toolbar. Works fine also.

Word of advice - do NOT change the default NTP service the gateway is setup with.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Is it buggy with other NTP servers or what?

Anyways, looks cool...just wish it was a bit cheaper. $199 is a lot and I dont think I would save that much on my energy bill...more just curiosity.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Meter reader showed up the other day while I was outside. Asked him about the switchout to digital meters. He said they were working on the substations apparently before they started placing meters.

Wasn't too happy about them since he would be out of a job once they went on-line.

Ahhh, the good and the bad of technology upgrades.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SayWhat? said:


> Wasn't too happy about them since he would be out of a job once they went on-line.


Around here the gas company has been contracted to read electric meters for some time now. They used to take turns (or maybe it was the same person driving the other company's rig).


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

I'm not too concerned about privacy issues and would greatly prefer greater utilization and more intelligence built into our electrical distribution system. I think outage management and service restorations would benefit. Hopefully it would help create a more efficiency so we'd have less loss in the system. Since the cable guys pretty much have a monopoly on broadband in our neck of the woods, I'd be happy to have our public electric utility as a competitor. I'd also welcome time of day rates. And if the Narcs smoke a few pot growers along the way, well so be it. (Just kidding. In Seattle, marijuana is way down the list of criminal offenses.) 

John


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

This is what my utility, PECO (Philadelphia Electric Company) is doing in this regard:
In one of the largest investments in company history, PECO plans to install more than 1.6 million residential and commercial smart meters, deploy advanced communications networks, and utilize the latest in digital smart grid technology. The $650 million plans, filed this month with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) and Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission (PUC), could save customers about $1.5 billion during the life of the project, improve service and benefit the environment.

The company’s plans include building an advanced metering infrastructure (AMI), providing smart meters for 600,000 customers by 2012 and all 1.6 million customers in 10 years, and upgrading the company’s electric transmission and distribution system with the ability to identify and correct certain system problems before they impact customers.

The first plan, filed with the DOE, seeks $200 million in matching funds through the federal stimulus grant program. Included in the submission are letters of support from nearly 100 organizations including: members of Congress; city, county and state officials; chambers of commerce; and vendors. A stimulus grant would allow for a faster, wider smart meter and smart grid deployment. 

The stimulus application also includes several private-public partnerships that would:

support low-income customers involving the Philadelphia Housing Authority as well as suburban county housing and social service agencies,
fund advanced energy management systems, and related applications and research at Drexel University and the University of Pennsylvania, 
allow for technology demonstrations at 10 commercial office buildings owned and managed by Malvern, Pa.-based Liberty Property Trust, 
sponsor job-training opportunities to support rapid smart-meter installations, and 
pursue targeted customer deployment and renewable energy applications with Ben Franklin Technology Partners, Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission and others.
PECO’s smart meter plan, submitted to the PUC on August 14, seeks approval to install the advanced metering infrastructure, backbone communications network and information systems to integrate customer energy usage with utility operations. The communications networks – fiber optics and wireless – will enable two-way communication between the smart meters and the smart grid.

These efforts support a broader environmental initiative at PECO and also are a component of Exelon 2020: A Low-Carbon Roadmap, the comprehensive environmental strategy of PECO’s parent company. Exelon 2020 sets the goal of reducing, offsetting or displacing more than 15 million metric tons of greenhouse gas emissions per year by 2020. This is more than the company’s current annual carbon footprint and is equivalent to taking nearly 3 million cars off American roads and highways.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

SayWhat? said:


> Meter reader showed up the other day while I was outside. Asked him about the switchout to digital meters. He said they were working on the substations apparently before they started placing meters.
> 
> Wasn't too happy about them since he would be out of a job once they went on-line.
> 
> Ahhh, the good and the bad of technology upgrades.


I hate for anyone to lose a job, but around here, the meter readers were terrible. I used to have two and three misreadings a year. One resulted in my power bill being over five times what it should have been. The power company refused to correct the bill based on my reading because they said I was, "probably not capable of reading it properly." They said that _if_ it had been misread that it would "work itself out" with the next billing cycle. This was even after I tried to explain that with a 200 amp panel, I would had to have been pulling almost 80% of that capacity 24 hours a day to have a bill of that amount. Luckily, my brother works there and was able to pull some strings to get the bill corrected. Since the digital meter was installed, I've had no issues at all,.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I don't think you'll find it other than direct at this point. I received mine yesterday after ordering 4 weeks ago.

Took about 15 minutes to install the CTs and MTU in the breaker box yesterday and another 15 to run the setup and start metering. Ran the suggested firmware upgrade and it flatlined!

Found the 'Gateway' that communicates via powerline to the MTU wasn't talking / listening. Unplugged the powerstrip in the same duplex outlet and it started again. So their PLC routines in the firmware upgrade weren't as good as what shipped.

But it's working again and the wife is ready to throw it out! The display adds a bit of wow factor for the non-techy types. (and toggles through multiple screens)


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Grentz said:


> Is it buggy with other NTP servers or what?
> 
> Anyways, looks cool...just wish it was a bit cheaper. $199 is a lot and I dont think I would save that much on my energy bill...more just curiosity.


Apparently the developers wrote their software to have the NTP server provide the day of the week - and the NTP server they selected as default does that. Where this can make a difference is if you are on a Time-Of-Use (TOU) rate plan that depends on the day of the week for what rate you get charged for that period's consumption. Since I AM on such a rate plan, TED's estimate for the bill would be off (it still is, but it's for other factors not accounted for in the software). TED will still get the date and time fom other NTP servers, just that it doesnot calculate the DOW like their default server provides.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Is DOW all that valuable in predicting residential usage?


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

dennisj00 said:


> I don't think you'll find it other than direct at this point. I received mine yesterday after ordering 4 weeks ago.
> 
> Took about 15 minutes to install the CTs and MTU in the breaker box yesterday and another 15 to run the setup and start metering. Ran the suggested firmware upgrade and it flatlined!
> 
> ...


lol, why is the wife ready to throw it out?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

harsh said:


> Is DOW all that valuable in predicting residential usage?


Yes - 
My rate plan - 
Basic meter monthly charge - $9.85
On peak hours rate - $0.06858 / KWh
Off Peak hours rate $0.05484 / KWh
Streetlight - $3.46

Plus a demand charge for the number of KW during the highest 15 minutes of On peak. This rate is seasonal 
Summer - $5.02 / KW
Winter - $3.73 / KW

Peak hours - 
Summer 0000 Mar 31 - 0000 Sep 30 - Monday - Friday, 10 AM - 9PM
Winter 0000 Sep 30 - 0000 Mar 31 - Monday - Friday 6 AM -1 PM, 4 PM - 9 PM

Off Peak - Anything not defined as On Peak. In addition, we get some holidays as off peak.

TED's software doesn't have a way to do the Demand charge. Just about everything else can be accomodated, though.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Grentz said:


> lol, why is the wife ready to throw it out?


Because now she sees what leaving all the lights on cost!

Seriously, after only 1 day she's commented how interesting it is. I think just like the MPG display in our car helps us get better mileage, this will instill some better habits.

But with a housefull of computers and dvrs, it'll be hard to lower our base.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

harsh said:


> Is DOW all that valuable in predicting residential usage?


Not a prediction of residential usage but perhaps a shifting -- run your dryers on weekends, etc.

In general, utilities are going to give better peak pricing on weekends because of lighter industrial / commercial loads and therefore a surplus.

Of course, this may vary in different regions of the country.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

My utility is pretty basic, they just do a standard rate, and then a rate over X number of kw hours. 

Luckily it is pretty cheap as well, cheaper than the big ones around (like Xcel here).


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

harsh said:


> Is DOW all that valuable in predicting residential usage?


Consider that the 'average' (cough, cough) household may be empty during daytime hours on weekdays. Mom & Dad both at work, kids all in school. Weekend days people are more likely to be home during the day.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Grentz said:


> My utility is pretty basic, they just do a standard rate, and then a rate over X number of kw hours.
> 
> Luckily it is pretty cheap as well,


Ditto.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

scooper said:


> Yes -
> My rate plan -
> Basic meter monthly charge - $9.85
> On peak hours rate - $0.06858 / KWh
> ...


I don't see anything dependent on DOW in your list of periods.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

scooper said:


> Peak hours -
> Summer 0000 Mar 31 - 0000 Sep 30 - *Monday - Friday, 10 AM - 9PM*
> Winter 0000 Sep 30 - 0000 Mar 31 - *Monday - Friday 6 AM -1 PM, 4 PM - 9 PM*





harsh said:


> I don't see anything dependent on DOW in your list of periods.


I do.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SayWhat? said:


> I do.


I see the day dependence, but I assumed DOW was necessarily a subset of TOD (TOU) that is in play in this scenario.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Which would mean it needs to know the day of the week.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

dennisj00 said:


> Not a prediction of residential usage but perhaps a shifting -- run your dryers on weekends, etc.
> 
> In general, utilities are going to give better peak pricing on weekends because of lighter industrial / commercial loads and therefore a surplus.
> 
> Of course, this may vary in different regions of the country.


In General - this is exactly why we changed our electric rate plan. We already did our laundry on the weekends, and it wasn't going to be all that much of a lifestyle change for us to try this - If we exercise any kind of care and restraint during peak times, we WILL save money on our electric bill. Our first monthly bill we saved 35-40% over the usual flatrate - won't be as dramatic this month, and maybe not for the winter months - but in the summer - we go crazy, with the air conditioning and running a pool pump.

As far as rate plans - if you're interested, check with your power company - they may have a TOU type plan, just not "advertised" very much - we found out about our's on a local TV channel's newscast on ways to save money. You also have to check your usage patterns to see if it works for you. From our second month (first full winter month), we are right on the edge of KWH use to make it work for us for winter season - this will change as we start using more (we have a Heat pump and an electric water heater - guess what's on a timer now) - the more we use offpeak as compared to flatrate , the more we save. I see a programmable thermostat in our future, again, as a way to offload some on peak heating / cooling to offpeak hours.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Other than a window A/C unit and an electric water heater, I don't have any big usage items and I keep my general usage overall pretty consistant. Still haven't found a replacement for my dead 30"LCDTV, so I'm only using a 20"CRT; not a big current draw there. I wouldn't benefit much from a TOU plan.

If they put a meter in where I can access graphs, fine. My bigger concern is that I'm going into a form of hermit mode and I'd rather not have meter readers on the property. Water meter in in the front yard near the road, so no issue there. No NG, so no gas meter.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

SayWhat? said:


> Other than a window A/C unit and an electric water heater, I don't have any big usage items and I keep my general usage overall pretty consistant. Still haven't found a replacement for my dead 30"LCDTV, so I'm only using a 20"CRT; not a big current draw there. I wouldn't benefit much from a TOU plan.
> 
> If they put a meter in where I can access graphs, fine. My bigger concern is that I'm going into a form of hermit mode and I'd rather not have meter readers on the property. Water meter in in the front yard near the road, so no issue there. No NG, so no gas meter.


That electric water heater might be less of a user than you think - Our's runs for about 30-60 minutes per day unless I do laundry using warm. There's only 2 of us, and we take about 10 minute showers each. And cleaning up before going to bed (washing faces, etc.). The kitchen has a 9.5 KW electric tankless water heater, so we are careful to use the dishwasher on offpeak hours (quick bursts for kitchen cleanup don't seem to hit us too hard). The electric clothes dryer is a killer - when it's running. So is the kitchen electric oven. And of course the heat pump. The well pump has a distinctive pattern as well, but our system is setup correctly.

All this information was gleaned from having TED. As it's said - knowledge is power, and in this case it really means controlling power .


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

No dishwasher. Nature makes a great (cheap) clothes dryer except in very cold weather when they tend to freeze before drying. :sure:


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## FYRPLG (Nov 11, 2006)

Just got our new smart meter 2 weeks ago. 
There was a notice From PGE in the mail that could be easily over looked as so much Junk mail now days.
The only problem when they came to install was finishing a program layout on the Computer. Don't have a problem with the privacy thing. But if we can Save money by using power more timely that,s good to. With all the electronics going 24/7 try to shut off lights and other visible things.

Many Years ago in high school went to Bonneville Dam and actually went inside the operating generator turbine and you could see the armature rotating just above our heads. At that time the generator was set at 75 RPM and the paddles on the shaft were the control for speed. It worked like the pitch on an airplane propeller.
Also most of the energy that is Hydro Electric generated on the Columbia River is sent to California. In the summer the power lines are just humming pretty loud. The energy is being used all the time.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

dennisj00 said:


> Which would mean it needs to know the day of the week.


This discussion was units that know DOY versus TOD. Any unit that knows TOD would presumably know DOY.

Even if the meter didn't know DOY, they could poll it every day to establish the day based on when it was polled.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

I though we were talking about DOW, Day of Week, which would be Sunday through Saturday. That could be a valid basis for peak/off peak usage based rates.

DOY, would be Julian Date, right? 001-365? I guess there's no reason a system couldn't use that to calculate DOW for rate adjustments.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

> WASHINGTON - Millions of households across America are taking a first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by appliance. But not everyone is happy about it.
> 
> Customers in California are in open revolt, and officials in Connecticut and Texas are questioning whether the rush to install meters benefits the public.
> 
> Some consumers argue that the meters are logging far more kilowatt hours than they believe they are using. And many find it unfair that they will begin to pay immediately for the new meters through higher rates, when the promised savings could be years away.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us/14meters.html?em


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

They installed a digital meter yesterday, but I don't know if it's a 'smart meter' the way you are describing them here. How could I tell? How are you accessing the data? Did you get some special device?

I'm not asking about the third party TED units. I thought someone said they could access some of the meter information directly unless I misread something.


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## jimmerz (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm sure they will be able to lower your thermostat if need be. Sort of like how on star can stop your car ... they were never going to utilize that either, now they advertise it as a tool to recover your stolen car.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

SayWhat? said:


> They installed a digital meter yesterday, but I don't know if it's a 'smart meter' the way you are describing them here. How could I tell? How are you accessing the data? Did you get some special device?
> 
> I'm not asking about the third party TED units. I thought someone said they could access some of the meter information directly unless I misread something.


The company will send to you a flayer with description how to access to your metered data via web site. You can't obtain the info from the meter itself.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

From the SF Chronicle:


> Faulty calibration. A component that shakes loose. Software that accidentally reboots.
> 
> Pacific Gas and Electric Co. has found a number of reasons why almost 45,000 of its SmartMeters haven't worked as planned.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Are meters here aren't even smart, they are just Landis & Gyr digital meters. I had to get mine replaced because it couldn't handle the hot sun.

Did they put in the old time tested schlumberger or sangamo dial meter? Nope, another L&G digital. What a waste.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

OK - so it's been 9 months since we have gone on that TOU-Demand Electric rate (still have the summer cooling season / pool pump season). In May2010, the electric company (Progress Energy) offered a $25 annual credit if you let them install some controller on our heat pump compressor to allow them to manage loads better, which we signed up for. saw said credit on our May 2010 bill. 

Since we have signed up for these, we have saved $376 for our electric use since september 2009 (and we still have the summer to go). As expected - this hasn't been a big lifestyle changer for us.

As we look back a year, our KWHr usuage hasn't really changed in total, but perhaps WHEN we use it has changed to accomodate the rate plan.

We have also added a programmable thermostat to the HVAC system to help us use it better.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Can you give us more details on this compressor controller?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

matt1124 said:


> Can you give us more details on this compressor controller?


About all I know about it -

It's a separate watertight box installed out by the outside part of our heatpump. It has some wires going to the control board (I assume the terminals control the power to the compressor) and it receives signals from the power company (not sure if this is wireless or over the electric grid) - they didn't provide very many details. I see that they can now "read" our meter remotely now, so it's probably using the same technology.

In any event - they install the box, and when they have successfully communicated with it, you get the $25 credit. They can power it off for up to 60 hours over the "air conditioning season" (which is pretty much now until the end of September / October around here), and you can have up to 2 incidents where you can opt out for the day and still keep your credit. That 60 hours will generally be M-F in the heat of the afternoon / early evening, for about 15 minutes at a time (and don't worry - the box has a 6 minute delay to save your compressor from cycling too fast from power off). Annual renewal is automatic if you had less than 3 "opt out" calls.

So besides the $25 credit per year, we will also save the electricity that we aren't using when they manage the compresser (or again - use it differently).

With the programmable thermostat - we have setup 75 degrees when on peak hours, and 72 degrees otherwise for cooling.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Huh. Not sure how I feel about that. It seems like that would open doors to easy government mandated control.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

matt1124 said:


> Huh. Not sure how I feel about that. It seems like that would open doors to easy government mandated control.


The program Scooper detailed is pretty common among electric companies, and has been around awhile now. I don't think there's any worry about government mandated control of your AC compressor; it's more likely that your "penalty" will be higher peak electric rates going forward.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

$25/year is not a drop in a bucket for my electric bill, its a drop in a lake 

My house was built in the 40s and has a few pieces on insulation here and there


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

scooper said:


> OK - so it's been 9 months since we have gone on that TOU-Demand Electric rate (still have the summer cooling season / pool pump season). In May2010, the electric company (Progress Energy) offered a $25 annual credit if you let them install some controller on our heat pump compressor to allow them to manage loads better, which we signed up for. saw said credit on our May 2010 bill.
> 
> Since we have signed up for these, we have saved $376 for our electric use since september 2009 (and we still have the summer to go). As expected - this hasn't been a big lifestyle changer for us.
> 
> ...


So, as part of the TOU deal, do they put a smart meter that you can monitor on your house? I would be interested just due to that maybe as it is still going to be forever before Progress makes enough progress to install them here.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

The real question is who has invented a device that inhibits the recording of usage increments just enough to save say 10% or 20%. And where do I buy one?

After all, the thing is a computer....

The existence of these is begging for bored hackers to try their hand.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Cow magnets make everything better.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

harsh said:


> Cow magnets make everything better.


Cow magnets???? Now I have to look that up.

*OK* not exactly sure how that would work.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Lee L said:


> So, as part of the TOU deal, do they put a smart meter that you can monitor on your house? I would be interested just due to that maybe as it is still going to be forever before Progress makes enough progress to install them here.


Actually - Progress IS my electric company.

However, I haven't found anywhere I can monitor the meter from a computer online, without using my TED5000 with Google powermeter. One of the things I do daily is go read the meter (several things go through - much more than just "KWH used").

Have a read of the NC Tariffs page - 
http://www.progress-energy.com/aboutenergy/rates/nctariffs.asp


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

SayWhat? said:


> They installed a digital meter yesterday, but I don't know if it's a 'smart meter' the way you are describing them here. How could I tell? How are you accessing the data? Did you get some special device?
> 
> I'm not asking about the third party TED units. I thought someone said they could access some of the meter information directly unless I misread something.


Nearly five years in and they just switched to the SmartHub website format. At this point, I can log in to their site and see graphs and charts based on their daily reads, but still no way to read them live from inside the house. I'm thinking of hanging an outdoor IP camera out there to view from a PC. :~)

Charts were showing daily usage of around 20KwH. I figured I could try to beat that and have so far lowered it to around 15KwH/day. Working on getting to 10.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

24 hour run with a Kill-A-Watt showed about 4 KwH used on the UPS running the desktop PC and monitor. Considering changing from that to a laptop for web usage and background music, but I need to find out how much the laptop uses if powered up 24 hours a day. Also if it will handle my needs since it only has 4Mb RAM instead of the 8Mb in the desktop. Both have Win7Home.

Just not sure a tablet/netbook will do what I want.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Can you add solar?


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Can you add solar?


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## Blurayfan (Nov 16, 2005)

My electric company Commonwealth Edison had Smart Meters on a trial install about 2 years ago now. I was selected as a participant in the trial. One feature I took advantage of is called RRTP (Residential Real Time Pricing), under this program the utility shows I saved over $1000.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

Blurayfan said:


> My electric company Commonwealth Edison had Smart Meters on a trial install about 2 years ago now. I was selected as a participant in the trial. One feature I took advantage of is called RRTP (Residential Real Time Pricing), under this program the utility shows I saved over $1000.


Do you believe you really saved $1000? Is this over one or two years?
And how did you do that?

Do you run your water heater at different hours?
HVAC at different hours?
Dishwasher / Laundry?

Would appreciate what you had to do convenient or inconvenient to meet such a significant savings?


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

The water heater is one of the things I need to figure out. I know it's close to 20 years old and likely not very efficient. I have it wrapped with an insulation blanket, but that's all I've done. When it goes out (or maybe before), I need to look at doing something different. Maybe just a timer on this one to kick on an hour or so before I need it, or an on-demand unit of some type.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Modern electric Tank water heaters are VERY energy efficient - there's almost no heat lost. The flip side is they only recover at about 20 gallons per hour., whereas gas recover at 25-30 gallons per hour. I use a timer on mine to keep it from coming on during on peak hours. And even then - it runs about an hour per day (excluding laundry days). More people in the house would need it to run more.

Electric tankless units are not great, IMHO. Consider - I have a 9.5KW EEMax unit in my kitchen for the kitchen sink and dishwasher. This unit is on its own 50 AMP breaker and only does about 1 gallon per minute - satisfactory for the kitchen but hardly enough for the whole house. A unit that could provide a modest 2 gallons per minute (that will do 1 typical shower (2 GPM) at a time ) would take about 80AMPs. Think about that power requirement when considering using Electric tankless.


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## Blurayfan (Nov 16, 2005)

NR4P said:


> Do you believe you really saved $1000? Is this over one or two years?
> And how did you do that?
> 
> Do you run your water heater at different hours?
> ...


According to my bills the savings is over the 2 years. I did plan my dishwasher and laundry usage around what the predicted prices they post 24 hours in advance showed. Our basic rates are .06 to .10 per KWH depending on time of year and the RRTP prices during my two years has averaged .03 per KWH.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

SayWhat? said:


> The water heater is one of the things I need to figure out. I know it's close to 20 years old and likely not very efficient. I have it wrapped with an insulation blanket, but that's all I've done. When it goes out (or maybe before), I need to look at doing something different. Maybe just a timer on this one to kick on an hour or so before I need it, or an on-demand unit of some ty


Bradford white is usually a good gas tank water heater. Actually set up a re circulation system not to long ago with mine. Has worked great, instant hot water everywhere all the time. Here in California, water savings is most important over electric and gas..

Personally I am not a fan of on demand systems after knowing several people who have had them. Plus its nice to have an extra 50 gallons of water or so inf there is ever an emergency.


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