# Dish suggests I upgrade to a 525/625



## robert koerner (Aug 20, 2005)

Another frustrating hour spent with Dish to get an answer to a simple question.

Many times Tech people have told me that if I replace my 510 with a 625 the 625s will be more reliable than my 510. When I called tonight I wanted to verify this assertion, and ask what would Dish do if I pay for the upgrade to a 625, pay for the installation, and the 625 isn’t a significant improvement in reliability.

They have asserted that since the 625 can download nightly “upgrades”, it will be more reliable than my 510 since my 510 cannot download unless it is shut off, in standby for the nightly updates between 4 and 5 AM.

My 510 crashes at least once a day when It is recording, I am playing back a recorded show, and am programming it to record in the future. Rebooting always solves the problem. Guess I’m just tired of having it crash 1-3 a day.

If I follow their advice and upgrade to the 625/525 and it is not more reliable than my 510, I’m stuck with it along with the 18 month programming commitment.

Directv has a 30 day refund deal going now for new customers. Customer service suggested I call local installers and see if any had an R10 left.

Or, buy a used Tivo, used R10 and send the leased Directv DVR back during the 30day trial period.

At least Directv seems to be willing to work with me to get a reliable unit running on Directv.

I've come to the conclusion that a DTivo unit will be the most reliable, and I want to retain a 30 second skip.


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## kf4omc (Apr 11, 2006)

I have a 625. And I love it.. Only a few reboots and hicckups now and then but works great 99.5% of the time.. I love it and would recomend it to everyone.


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

What "nightly upgrades" are they referring to. I don't turn my 508 receiver off and I get periodic (by no menas nightly) software upgrades and my guide gets updated. What else id there?


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

There's no such thing as a 'nightly' upgrade so no stability will be gained there. I own a 625 and have been very pleased with it - it's very stable. But there's no guarantee that your experience would be identical. If rebooting fixes it, you might invest in a cheap appliance timer (the kind that people use to turn their lamps on and off while they're on vacation) and use that to reboot your unit nightly. I used to do that with my old 921 and it worked well.


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## kf4omc (Apr 11, 2006)

My 625 gets or should I say looks for updates at 3am every night. Also runs a disk diag at that time too. If you go in to the menu you can set the time for this daily update or you can disable it. Also the 322 has this update option.

If you have this option on, at the set time the unit will power itself off and look for an update and then power back on to the channel it was on.


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

An update (where the receiver redownloads the program guide data) is not the same thing as an upgrade. If Dish is promising people a nightly upgrade, some people are going to be upset.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

updates, upgrades, sounds like its just a case of mistaken identity...


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## retiredTech (Oct 27, 2003)

buy the warranty($5 a month now I think) on your account (covers most E* equipment), your 510 should then be covered,
then the 510 replaced "free"(shipping charge may be waived with CC autopay) with a "working 510".


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## kf4omc (Apr 11, 2006)

kmcnamara said:


> An update (where the receiver redownloads the program guide data) is not the same thing as an upgrade. If Dish is promising people a nightly upgrade, some people are going to be upset.


If there is a software upgrade it will be downloaded at this time when the guide data updates. When 3 am comes around a screen appers and says the the reciver will power down and look for update and download program guide data.


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

I'd seriously consider simply getting a replacement 510. I have a 508 (similar to 510 but w/o DVR fee and a smaller HD). I had a problem with the first one, replaced it and never looked back - it has been problem free. You like the 510 when it works, consider just getting another one - worse case the problem continues and you can still get a 625.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

robert koerner said:


> They have asserted that since the 625 can download nightly "upgrades", it will be more reliable than my 510 since my 510 cannot download unless it is shut off, in standby for the nightly updates between 4 and 5 AM.


This is misleading. The 510 (and the rest of the 5xx series receivers) can grab the downloads as necessary. It is *NOT* necessary to leave the receiver on all of the time. In fact, leaving it "on" continuously is recommended against and it will last longer if you don't.


> My 510 crashes at least once a day when It is recording, I am playing back a recorded show, and am programming it to record in the future. Rebooting always solves the problem. Guess I'm just tired of having it crash 1-3 a day.


Based on what you have told us you have a defective receiver. I've had a 508 for over two years and it has never "crashed". I turn it off when I'm not using it and I have upgrades enabled.


> Or, buy a used Tivo, used R10 and send the leased Directv DVR back during the 30day trial period.


The 30 day trial period is for new customers and the DirecTV service itself; not just the receiver.


> At least Directv seems to be willing to work with me to get a reliable unit running on Directv.


Have you personally contacted DirecTV to find out how their customer service works in your situation? It would seem you're making a rather huge assumption.


> I've come to the conclusion that a DTivo unit will be the most reliable, and I want to retain a 30 second skip.


You need to pop over to the DirecTV forums and see how they feel about the R15. I think you'll find that your theory isn't widely held by those who are having problems.

If your 510 is under warranty, you should demand a replacement 510. If it is not, you need to completely survey your options (and their relative availability) before you make a decision.


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## robert koerner (Aug 20, 2005)

I appreciate the suggestions of replacing the 510. After this problem first surfaced, dish wound up sending 4 or more replacement units. Each unit has the exact same problem. Each unit I sent back did not have any hardware problems.

I eventually stopped calling them, since they do not have a solution to fix this problem other than doing reboots.

I don’t know if the story of my unit malfunctioning because it does not get daily down loads is BS to cover a software problem they cannot solve. But, my gut instinct is to not trust them. Hence, I want assurance from them that if I follow their expert advice, I will wind up with a more reliable unit.

The R15 is not a Tivo unit, they have tons of software problems with the R15.

I have called Diretv.


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## retiredTech (Oct 27, 2003)

robert koerner said:


> I appreciate the suggestions of replacing the 510. After this problem first surfaced, dish wound up sending 4 or more replacement units. Each unit has the exact same problem. Each unit I sent back did not have any hardware problems.
> 
> I eventually stopped calling them, since they do not have a solution to fix this problem other than doing reboots.
> 
> ...


You have answered your own question in this statment above, 4 replacements with the exact same problem(after the problem first surfaced). This can only indicate one possibility, the problem is NOT the 510, it is in your signal to your 510.
So this means you have a intermitent LNB, switch, cable and/or connector.
Or some other external problem OTHER than your 510. YOU just then need to inspect everything or get a tech to check it out.


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

retiredTech said:


> You have answered your own question in this statment above, 4 replacements with the exact same problem(after the problem first surfaced). This can only indicate one possibility, the problem is NOT the 510, it is in your signal to your 510.
> So this means you have a intermitent LNB, switch, cable and/or connector.
> Or some other external problem OTHER than your 510. YOU just then need to inspect everything or get a tech to check it out.


I agree. I don't think switching to the 625 will necessarily fix your problem. Going to D* would because they will rewire everything for their system. Good luck whichever way you go!


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## robert koerner (Aug 20, 2005)

The signal strength seems to be adequate to record anything I want to, any time of the day.

Whenever I check signal strength, the built in indicator is always in the green. Whenever I run check switch, it checks OK.

The 510 is a newer one, it has a grounded AC cord.
I checked the connections to earthen ground, when a tech insisted my problems were due to faulty ground connection. While I was up there, I checked the cable to ground block, and ground block to LNA.

I've rejected their assertion I pay someone to check the system since Dish will not reimburse me the if nothing is wrong between the satellite and the receiver. Dish cannot tell me what an installer can check that I haven't.

I've rejected their assertion I should hire an electrician to test my AC for a problem that Dish can not name, or give an indication of what the symptoms of the problem is.

I've rejected their assertion this is from local storms, it is caused by static electricity picked up by the antenna, it is caused by sagging AC lines touching the dish, it is caused by my fingers being so fat that I hit two keys on the remote at the same time, that I program it to go to a channel rather than program it to record, the 510s are damaged in shipment, that my neighbor's remote is effecting my 510 (they have Directv; there is 100 feet in-between our houses; the signal would have to go through 3 of their walls and two of mine).

I've tried to patiently explain to various techs that the 10 gauge wire running from the satellite to ground on a AC box on my roof, is not for a direct lightening strike, and why the installer did that instead of running it to rod driven in the ground (NEC), these units do not transmit a signal to the satellites, I do not have trees growing in the signal path, the vents on the 510 are not blocked, etc.

I've explained to some techs why the sat signal is transformed to another frequency before it is sent down the coax, the current send to the amplifier does not burn out RG 59, and why signals have different polarity.

If I though the coax, or a connector was the problem, I'd replace them. But if the coax/connectors developed either a short or open, the incoming signal would dive way down into the red. Water in the coax or connector will disrupt the incoming signal, and won't be in the feed line 365 days a year when we have single digit humidity, and can go for 100 days without rain.

I've also had to point out that the coaxial shield is grounded to the 510's chase, the chase is grounded to the earthen ground in the AC receptacle, as a result, this problem is not caused by static electricity building up inside the 510, and then changing the electronics or software. It is not making the unit malfunction exactly the same way month after month.

I’ve rejected the concept that the power supply in the 510s is so poorly designed that it craps out when my CD and DVD players, TV, VCR, computers, stereo gear, ham radio gear, precision turn table, clocks without battery or capacitor back up, all run without problems.


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## fredinva (May 10, 2006)

finniganps said:


> Going to D* would because they will rewire everything for their system.


You think????

Have you tried taking the ground block OUT of the loop for a try??

fred


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

finniganps said:


> Going to D* would because they will rewire everything for their system. Good luck whichever way you go!


I doubt that. They'd throw up their own dish and LNB's but likely use all the existing wiring unless there was truly a compelling reason to run new wires.


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## robert koerner (Aug 20, 2005)

How could the grounding block cause the daily malfunctions?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

robert koerner said:


> How could the grounding block cause the daily malfunctions?


An improperly bonded ground can create a couple of demons including static electricity or small currents due to electrolysis. A defective or delapidated grounding block can conceivably ground the signal.

The grounding block is a possibility for introducing a problem, so testing with it removed is something to consider when you're troubleshooting.


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## robert koerner (Aug 20, 2005)

Thanks for the info.

It is grounded properly. Continuity from block to the copper wire, continuity from the copper wire to the outside of the coaxial connector, continuity from the mast supporting the dish, continuity from the copper wire to electrical box.

It never occurred to me that the metal the block is made out of would be incompatible with copper wire. It seemed to have a bronze color.

What could be defective in a grounding block? I assumed the block was equivalent to a double female. Is there a bleeding resistor some where in it?

Since this problem persists in humid wx, and the coxial shield is grounded to electrical earth thru the chase, as is the grounding block, I’ve rejected static electricity as the source for the unit malfunctioning when it is recording, as I watch recorded programs, and program it to record.

Can there be a problem with static electricity, picked up on the antenna, with it not somehow effecting what is being recorded, or what is being played back?

I do have an antenna with a 20 foot boom, 3 elements, 64 feet in length, grounded to the boom, on a 70 foot tower, which occasional will pick up a charge, but I can hear the static build up on the audio of the radio plugged into coax running to the antenna.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

robert koerner said:


> It is grounded properly. Continuity from block to the copper wire, continuity from the copper wire to the outside of the coaxial connector, continuity from the mast supporting the dish, continuity from the copper wire to electrical box.


While all the DC continuity measures out fine, it is possible that there is some other kinds of continuity going on that are undesirable. It is possible that there is some "continuity" between the shield/ground and the center conductor.


> It never occurred to me that the metal the block is made out of would be incompatible with copper wire. It seemed to have a bronze color.


That would probably be zinc dichromate (yellow zinc) or cadmium plating. The screw makes contact with what is under the plating, so as long as you have used the screw as your terminal, you should be OK. If, as some have done, you connected to the foot of the ground block, it isn't "correct".


> What could be defective in a grounding block? I assumed the block was equivalent to a double female.


Imagine for a moment what is inside the "coupler". There's a springy thing that makes the metaillic contact and some sort of insulation. If this is defective or is shorting internally, it may be shorting (or possibly arcing) to ground.


> Can there be a problem with static electricity, picked up on the antenna, with it not somehow effecting what is being recorded, or what is being played back?


Electronic equipment of the digital kind hates static. Static is like lightening: you never know when it is going to strike.

Two things related to electricity can cause computers to "crash". One is spikes and the other is power dumps. Static can create spikes if it isn't properly bled off and a short between the center conductor and ground can cause a power rush in the supply of the receiver that may starve it. The receiver pumps out a pretty good chunk of DC power to drive the LNB(s). Speaking of which, what kind of power is your receiver plugged into? Is it on a line conditioner or UPS? I ran into a situation once where the only other device on the line was a "pilotless" gas water heater and every time the water heater ignited, something would go wrong.

Either way, as others have suggested, you should swap out components one at a time until you can isolate the problem. Maybe the 510 power supply is marginal, but I'll bet the problem won't go away with a different receiver. The ground block(s) are a real easy place to start as you can temporarily replace them with simple couplers. Other parts aren't so easy to diagnose without some specialized instruments (a continuously recording voltmeter would be cool). I'll bet that if you watch the DC voltage on the cable, at the instant that the machine crashes, there will have been either a spike or a dump (or both).

Then again, YMMV.


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## Cocoatreat (May 16, 2006)

robert koerner said:


> Another frustrating hour spent with Dish to get an answer to a simple question.
> 
> Many times Tech people have told me that if I replace my 510 with a 625 the 625s will be more reliable than my 510. When I called tonight I wanted to verify this assertion, and ask what would Dish do if I pay for the upgrade to a 625, pay for the installation, and the 625 isn't a significant improvement in reliability.
> 
> ...


i have a 501 and a 510.... i would have to say that within 6 mos of having both units i did have problems... however, the recievers were under warranty....all i had to do was exchange it for no costs.....dish was very helpful in that respect... i bought these recievers a few years apart.......i think that there was a problem with the hard drive....so far i have had just minor problems......nothing a reboot wouldnt fix....

i am now contemplating getting the 625........sounds mighty good 2 me......i am just not a direct tv fan......i did my research on both before buying......and dish always came up tops......however...i am not a sports fan....if u want the sports....direct tv has the monopoly.........if u love movies.....go for dish!


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

robert koerner said:


> I appreciate the suggestions of replacing the 510. After this problem first surfaced, dish wound up sending 4 or more replacement units. Each unit has the exact same problem. Each unit I sent back did not have any hardware problems.
> 
> I eventually stopped calling them, since they do not have a solution to fix this problem other than doing reboots.
> 
> ...


You seem to reject a lot of very helpful information, but when you say 4 or more replacement units have had the same problem. You might want to reconsider some of the very helpful information, posted here by users that have run into wierd FM style of problems. Bad cabling, lose connectors, bad grounding can cause all sorts of hard to define problems. Just because your signal strength is good on 1 transponder, doesn't mean your signal is good, what about the other transponders. The odds of 1 person getting 4 or more systems with the exact same problem, has to be off the charts. I wouldn't upgrade to a 625 until you resolve your interal problem 1st.


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