# Is the 721 as bad as what everyone says.



## Bowtieman (Aug 13, 2003)

I am thinking very strongly on getting a 721 as it is a dual tuner DVR and has no pvr fee.

I am seeing a lot more con vs pro with this DVR. Is this the case or is it only the people having problems with the 721 the ones posting.

Would people who have a 721 and have had no problems or a least a minimal amount please let me know if you would purchase another one. I would really like to see the other side of the coin before I plunk down several hundred bucks.

TIA


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

I am very happy with mine. It has some quirks, but overall I have very few complaints about it. 

Dennis


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## JBKing (Mar 23, 2002)

'Everyone' or just Bob Haller?


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

If you've never used another PVR (Replay, Tivo, UTV, etc...) then the 721 will make your world a lot brighter.

If you've used the "competition" you will be pretty disgusted by the 721's bugs and lack of features. For the price you'll pay for the 721 Ferrari, you are getting the equivilent of a VW Bug Ferrari kit car. It has the looks (aside from the gaudy silver) and promises to be a monsterously fast beast... but once you take it out on the pavement against the other cars, you realize what a piece of junk it really is.

Bottom line is, if you want a functional/useful/easy to use piece of equipment and don't mind paying per month, then go with a DirecTivo or a stand alone Tivo, or even a UTV box. If you don't mind constant bugs, total lack of support for the product, a crappy interface and an utter lack of common features, but want no PVR fee, then 721 is your baby. 

As much as it pains me, and I hate myself for advising this, given the lifetime of a PVR unit, the $99 deal from DirecTV for a DirecTivo, it's really smarter to go with a couple DTivo units. For the same price after 2 or 3 years, you'll have a much better unit, with features that actually work and are useful.

If you plan on keeping your 721 for 10 years and praying that it doesn't break and that Dish will support it that long AND pray that they don't start charging a fee (hahaha yea right) - then the 721 is a better option financially.

For 99.9% of the users out there, though, the 721 is a bad deal over the long haul (but a better deal in the short term). Dish can't get their software right, and probably never will. If you can stand the bugs and don't mind paying to test their software, lose programs and have downtime, then go for it.

I am utterly sorry I ever bought this thing. When I had my UTV and DTivo units, I never once thought about losing all my recorded programs to a bug. Now I live with that "fear" constantly, and I'm always leary about setting a timer or doing something catastrophic that will set off the 721 to erase all my shows I have recorded. It's a silly little fear, but it's there none the less... I didn't even know it existed as a fear until I got saddled with this thing. I never once thought about it with my DTivo or UTV because it just never happened. It seems to happen quite a lot on the 721's - thankfully never to me though. But that's probably only because I'm afraid to use the features on it for fear of setting it off. How's that for quality software!


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

The silent majority is fairly happy with their receiver. Yes, there are annoyances, but on the whole I wouldn't change a thing. Kind of like my wife.

(SMACK!)

OWWW. Just kidding, honey.


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## goughl (Jul 18, 2003)

I have had a few minor bugs, but over all I am very happy with it. Would I buy it again? YES


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## rcwilcox (Jan 20, 2003)

goughl said:


> I have had a few minor bugs, but over all I am very happy with it. Would I buy it again? YES


ditto


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Mine does fine, and i don't lament my purchase at all.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

The 721s are not nearly as bad as Bob Haller makes them out to be. 

Since we got the last software update (Oct. 13), I have only had to re-boot my 721 once. Yes, the 721 does have software bugs but none that are really major.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Bow,

I did a poll earlier on if people felt their 721 was reliable and most people said they felt it was. Only one person said it sucked! So as far as reliability goes, people are fairly happy with it in general from what I can see.


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## Bowtieman (Aug 13, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Bow,
> 
> I did a poll earlier on if people felt their 721 was reliable and most people said they felt it was. Only one person said it sucked! So as far as reliability goes, people are fairly happy with it in general from what I can see.


Thanks for your input WJD. I had a feeling that the majority of 721 owners just weren't posting. Most people don't respond when they are happy with a product.

If I purchase a 721 off, lets say, ebay do I then have to have someone from dish to install it or do I just hook the same cable up to it that is hooked in the back of 3900 right now. I have Dish 500 right now. After that, do I have to contact dish to have them activate the card for it to work properly. Sorry if I am such a novice to this. I have had only this box and one other since I got dish 5 years ago. Very little experience.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

You need to run a second cable to the 721. Think of it as hooking up two receivers. If you have a spare output on your switch and can run the cable yourself, you don't need an installer. You can't split the cable, you have to have two separate runs. Once it's hooked up, just call dish and they'll activate it.

Dennis


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## Five Hole (Jun 23, 2002)

Is it required to have a second cable going to the box? At this time, it is not possible for me to have a second cable and with the superdish coming, I don't spend money on the dishes and switches I already have just to replace them later.


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## Jason (Aug 8, 2002)

Five Hole said:


> Is it required to have a second cable going to the box? At this time, it is not possible for me to have a second cable and with the superdish coming, I don't spend money on the dishes and switches I already have just to replace them later.


Yes, it is required that you have a second cable hooked up to the 721 in order for it to operate properly.


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## retiredTech (Oct 27, 2003)

I have had a 721 since January 2003 and LOVE IT!

Yes it's expensive, 
But so is tivo if you have buy it outright (and not as a one time offer as a new customer) 
and don't forget that tivo charges a monthly fee for it to work.

This is only my opinion:

I feel that "some 721 users" 
MAY BE asking their unit to do "un-common" demands.
(ie pushing HARD to try to see if they can show weakness or
like driving a car "hard & fast" for a "test")

I would recommend the 721 to anyone.

Is it perfect ? no
But mine has preformed well 
and when it had a problem Dish REPLACED it FREE!

So being a tech for years and seeing a whole lot of electronics inside and out, trust me ,
there ain't no perfect electronic equipment.
(and if the real truth was known tivo isn't perfect either)

That's my 35 years of real world technical experience input.


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## Bill Mullin (Jul 24, 2002)

Before the latest update I would have said that I was overall satisfied. But with software version 1.15, 2 of my favorite features "back 10 seconds" and "forward 30 seconds" are constantly freezing. I find myself wishing I had gotten the 508!

- Bill


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Jason said:


> Yes, it is required that you have a second cable hooked up to the 721 in order for it to operate properly.


Not anymore, that was fixed at least 2 software upgrades ago.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

retiredTech said:


> I have had a 721 since January 2003 and LOVE IT!
> 
> Yes it's expensive,
> But so is tivo if you have buy it outright (and not as a one time offer as a new customer)
> ...


D Tivos are $99 most places. Plus the fee is per account on direct, per box on E.

721 is still over $500


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## bunkers (Dec 16, 2002)

I just got my 721 installed a few days back.

I was equally worried about the 721 after reading these (and other) forums.

So far, its been stable for the first 3 days and I am generally pleased with it.

I am talking as a person who has grown used to having a 501 and 508 for some time now. So I am getting used to the modified interface, but its not that major of a transition either. 

You not only really SHOULD have two cable feeds, but you likely need to upgrade to DishPRO LNB(s) if you don't already have them. Does you LNB on your DISH(es) have a big DP (dish pro) on them? If not, then you probably have a classic twin LNB and would minimally need a DP twin and a DP34 switch to use your 721 with both recievers. Thats an extra $75 to $100 on ebay.

If your plan is to eventually go 921, then maybe bite the bullet and go with 721 for now. If you just want something nice for 2-3 more years, than get a 5xx DVR instead, preferrably a NEW 508 (or 2) off ebay -- and get the extended warranty for if they ever go bad at $1.99 a month. If you americs everything package, then no DVR fees on anything.

YOu may wait for the 921 to come out, since it may drop the price on the 721 further.

I currently feel that (2) 508(s) is better and cheaper than 1 721 -- but I went the other way because I needed a 721 to allow my kids shows to record while still being able to watch live TV. I also wanted to pave the way towards a 921 in the next couple of years or so.

Would I buy it again, yes. Its so far not nearly as bad as I have read on here ... and I don't seem to have any of the problems I have read about.

The interface on the 721 is just less refined at this point than the 5xx line is. Does it have more potential, yes! But is it there yet? no, IMHO. Sine if the 721 graphic effects are kind of cool, like the graphics when pausing, skipping, etc... The PIP implementation is pretty good and really easy to use I thought. If your a sports nut, then this would be really handy.

I am holding out hope the the 721 will be the proving grounds the the 921, which is clearly an important reciever for DISH in the long run. Its clear from these charlie chats that the upper management geeks have all had 721(s) and now 921(s) and have a vested interest in making these machines right over time.

I think it very possible that major new release of 721/921 software is around the corner and that the latest release was just a minor bugfix release to hold folks over. I wouldn't be surprised to see name based recording and/or TIVO licensing sometime in the future -- but I'm not counting on it either. 

Did Bob scare me also? Yes


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I sure wish Charlie would license Tivo software or buy the Tivo company itself. Then we would have good stable software on our Dvrs. Charlie would then have something to justify the new dvr fees. He could also offer the upgrade on the older dvrs like the 508/501/721 ,and then he could charge a fee on thoses receivers also ,if the customer wanted to upgrade. Everyone would win then. He still needs to drop the per receiver fee and just make it a per account fee.


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## bunkers (Dec 16, 2002)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I sure wish Charlie would license Tivo software or buy the Tivo company itself. Then we would have good stable software on our Dvrs. Charlie would then have something to justify the new dvr fees. He could also offer the upgrade on the older dvrs like the 508/501/721 ,and then he could charge a fee on thoses receivers also ,if the customer wanted to upgrade. Everyone would win then. He still needs to drop the per receiver fee and just make it a per account fee.


MIKE, i totally agree with you ... even though I don't like everything about TIVO, its definately a superior product to anything DISH has produced.

I think it would be a strategic genious for Charlie to acquire TIVO for several reasons:

(1) He could save money on all the in house staff required to maintain the existing software group. Plus he would be acquiring a group with a proven track record of reliability and functionality. 
(2) He could bring TIVO folks in house and get a rock solid software foundation for building DVR(s) upon. Lots of the current staff would be retained untill the reciever based converted to TIVO ... then eventually layed off.
(3) He could own the company that DirecTV is most dependant upon -- what a twist of fate -- if DISH owns TIVO, then DirecTV doesn't have a viable DVR without them! And murdoch doesn't get anything either if he acquires DirecTV --- haha! It doesn't mean he cuts them off, but how sweet to own the DVR componant of your biggest competitor !!
(4) DISH customers win because the TIVO product would bring stability and universal platform to which DISH receivers could be based. 
(5) He would also be acquiring the patents that TIVO has on much of DVR related technology and name based recordings.

I am hoping they are perfectin the dual tuner hardware and PIP capabilities and then getting ready to allow a smooth transition to TIVO eventually. Why they donj't take them over is beyond me. TIVO is nothing for DISH to acquire, but would send the stock to the moon and subscribers would win.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

bunkers said:


> I was equally worried about the 721 after reading these (and other) forums.
> 
> Did Bob scare me also? Yes


There are likely more than a few people that have *not* bought DISH equipment because of Bob Haller's posts. If even half of the stuff he posted is true there is no doubt that he has had way more problems than any other user. He also posts way more about his problems than the average person would which makes it seems like DISH equipment has way more problems than they actually do. I have to wonder what really is behind all those problems. All the rest of us that own DISH equipment know that it really isn't that prone to problems so the big question is Why is one person having so many problems? Are the problems caused by some reason other than defective hardware? Likely we will never know.

All I have to say to anyone that is considering buying DISH equipment, please take Bob's posts with a grain of salt. Also be careful about his latest posts. He is currently on a smear campaign against DISH (especially in the alt.dbs.echostar newsgroup) stating that DISH is now in a crisis state (with the implication that they may soon fail). DISH does have some software reliability problems but they are clearly not in any kind of state of crisis as Bob would like everyone to believe.

The administrators of DBSTalk need to be especially aware of what Bob is doing and _may_ need to take measures to make sure this board stays fair and balanced and not a one man smear campaign against a really good company.


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

I'd just like to point out that the alarmist propaganda like Bill R and a few others claim about Bob's post is just that: propaganda.

Bob has problems, and he's vocal about them. Boo hoo... what the Bill R types are doing is trying to justify their purchases without looking at the facts. It's a common human failing, when you put your support behind something, humans will generally tend to be zealots when it comes to defending their choices, even if it flies in the face of logic and common sense.

Nobody wants to admit they made a mistake and purchased an albatross; it's just human nature.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again... although I don't believe any of the Dish Zealots will listen  Put together a chart of features on a Tivo or UTV box vs. a 721. Then list all the bugs with both boxes.

THAT is the hard evidence that will support anything that's said. I've done so, I've MADE that list and posted it here... the Dish Zealots simply can't counter the list, because it's hard, documented fact. The 721 has more problems, a less user-friendly interface and lacks many features of every other PVR on the market. This is simple math, folks and it's easy to see the truth... 

Take a look at the feature set of any other PVR that's available today and compare it against the 721. The 721 falls short (way short). Take a look at the common bugs the other PVRs experience on a daily basis... the 721 has an equal if not greater number of *common* bugs (I'm not even including the uncommon ones found on the 721). 

The 721 excels in a couple areas, but the areas that it "excels" in are merely *equal* to some of the other PVRs, it doesn't exceed expectations. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but just something to keep in mind. (An example of this is other PVRs have dual tuners and can record off the sat stream. That's a plus, but it's matched by other PVR boxes) 

There is nothing on the 721 that exceeds other PVRs, and there are many failings on the 721 that other PVRs do NOT have. This, to any reasonable person makes the 721 an inferior product *WHEN COMPARED TO THE COMPETITION*. This is not an arguable opinion, this is a fact based on hard evidence posted here and elsewhere... like the side of the box and the "official" feature set list of PVRs.

Now, is that to say the 721 doesn't do what some people want it to do? Not at all... the 721 may do everything YOU want it to do, and that's great... it may be just the right box for YOU. Again, that's great. But that's not the point. The point is the 721, when compared to the competition (every other PVR on the market not made by Dish), it's last in line in terms of quality, usability and feature set.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Inaba said:


> I'd just like to point out that the alarmist propaganda like Bill R and a few others claim about Bob's post is just that: propaganda.
> 
> What the Bill R types are doing is trying to justify their purchases without looking at the facts. It's a common human failing, when you put your support behind something, humans will generally tend to be zealots when it comes to defending their choices, even if it flies in the face of logic and common sense.


Alarmist propaganda? What does that mean?

And if you really read this and other DBS boards you would know that I also have a DirecTV TiVo and have said (many times) that it is a much better product that my 721. This is not about the 721 and I sure can't be called a DISH zealot. When they screw up (like on software releases), I call them on it.

What this IS about is that I don't like it when people like Bob Haller do their best to discredit DISH and its fine employees and hijack treads or try to use this board in their smear campaign against DISH. For example, from one of his recent posts:


Bob Haller said:


> Their inept, overworked clueless software group is trying to cope with replacing nearly all the receiver models at once.


DISH software engineers are NOT inept or clueless nor is DISH anywhere near as bad as Bob often says it is.

I have no doubt that this thread will be closed shortly. It is a another victim of the "Haller effect".


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Inaba, 

Not sure if this is flame bait but I will respond. 

I would say Simple Math based on your interpretation of the facts. From the opinions I have seen, It is well known that the Tivo is more feature reach. As for user interface, that is subjective and without a usability test I would not make that statement. Have you seen one? This is easily proven by putting a MAC person in front of a PC and visa versa. So It is hard to prove that statement. Maybe more intuitive from your experience.


As for the bug list, unless you are privy to both internal bug lists making a statement that listing the bug next to each other only lists the bugs that you are aware of based on your research and does not reflect true bug exposure. This is also highly subjective. I know you say common, but I still feel getting any accuracy here without internal knowledge is impossible. Yes you can comb the boards, but if you notice there are 10 to 1 Dish posting to DirecTV here. Correlating this data would be impossible and a waste of effort in my opinion and would not be accurate.

I don't think people are saying the 721 is the best PVR on the market. What I get is that people feel that it gets the job done and it is more stable than some people are claiming it to be. Nothing more nothing less. Like you said, if it does the job. And as for features... I agree.. TIVO beats it hands down... However, if you are a Dish customer there are some features that the TIVO would not bring to the table. For example, IR Blaster requirement and the double encoding. Those have to be weighed against the additional functionality. Does a person want a two box solution? 

As for zealot behavior, this is much more obvious on the side of TIVO from my experience. When people lose there TIVO functionality they tend to go a little crazy. It has been likened to Crack. 

I have never heard the statement "I caught NYPD on 721 last night." I have heard "I caught NYPD on TIVO last night". Zealots come in all shapes and sizes.. My experience has been that TIVO folks are much more passionate about there purchase than a 721 person. 

Do I have a 721? Nope.. I am thinking about the 921 so I have started to look into the 721 since I understand the 921 is based off the 721. I have seen a lot of posting mainly from Bob on a number of boards about what a piece of crap the 721 is and that Dish is in a crises. Every possible chance for a Dish dig Bob is there. Thats cool he has a right to his opinion. 

Though I disagree with some of Bill's tactics, I think Bill is just trying to level the playing field and he is not trying to be a Dish Zealot. If he was, he would be over in the DirecTV stirring up crap there. Is he? That is usually what zealots do. They start these types of conversation in other camps to try and put down other people choices and trumpet theirs. 

On a final note... The 721 from my understand does what it is suppose to do. I believe It is not the Mercedes of PVRs, but it does get the job done. 

TIVO is a wonderful piece of technology and I wish Dish offered it like Direct.... I however will go with Dish's PVR mainly because I want a one box solution and don't want to give up PQ. That is a choice I made. I would lose a little in PQ with a two box solution. 

As for the reliability and usability comments, I don't think any of us could make that determination. One, since we are on the leading edge we are tainted by the technology that came before us. I have not seen one usability test comparing the two. 

On the reliability comments, unless someone has both internal bug lists and has a full understanding of how these bugs relate to ever day use, making a statement like one is more stable than the other is based solely on the opinion of posts here and personal experience. This is all subject to bias of what is common and not common and could may or may not reflect reality. 

I tend to give weight to person opinions on products over reviewers because of the limited exposure a reviewer has on a given product. However, I would not give a lot of weight to a bug list comparison made by someone on the net.. No offense Inaba, I just don't feel it is valid.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Inaba said:


> I'd just like to point out that the alarmist propaganda like Bill R and a few others claim about Bob's post is just that: propaganda.
> 
> Bob has problems, and he's vocal about them. Boo hoo... what the Bill R types are doing is trying to justify their purchases without looking at the facts. It's a common human failing, when you put your support behind something, humans will generally tend to be zealots when it comes to defending their choices, even if it flies in the face of logic and common sense.
> 
> ...


Puhleeze....

Once again, for any newbies.... take anything said with a grain of salt when the same 5 people are slamming something over and over again. Especially some troll who doesn't even list what city he hails from to dissuade us from the notion that he is someone else posting under an alias so he can have multiple "people" push his agenda.

I have a 721. About 2 or 3 times a week it stutters during a REW/FF action. I've got another minor bug where it decides to record two nights in a row when the timer starts exactly at midnight. That's It. It hasn't locked up on me in months. Dolby Digital is working flawlessly (compared to my DP that was flaky with this). I have no audio dropouts anymore. It works great and I would highly recommend it to anyone.

If you like E*'s programming mix then this is their current flagship PVR product until the 921 ships (when I will upgrade to that and give my 721 to my father). If you are a sports nut and NEED Out of Market Football and Baseball then go to D*. Ditto to Yankee fans in NYC.

However, if you are an HD fan, I think that E* will soon be the leader in this market due to the Superdish and the additional bandwidth being brought online. I expect D* to be wrestling with the takeover by Rupert and capacity concerns. Tivo's stock took a dive last week because a lot of people thing that Rupert will be chucking them for his own proprietary PVR system once he takes over (assuming the FCC and Justice Depts. don't shoot him down). E* is making money while D* is not. E* is growing market share while D* is falling (yes they are still adding subscribers but E* is adding them faster cume over the last two years.) So don't run for the hills because a couple of trolls tell you that E* is terrible. I would ask myself why they stick around if their experiences were so horrible.

As for Bill R.'s opinion, I happen to agree with it. Pointing out bugs is one thing. Habitually slamming one of the providers with the same arguments over and over again is useless. The individual in question was banned from one site two years ago for causing similar problems. His actions caused another moderator here to blow his lid and be banished into exile when he let HIS frustrations with this individual get the best of him. DBSForums saw its traffic plunge when it took on an anti-E* bias. I deeply hope that DBSTalk doesn't suffer the same fate. It's funny that with a site that relishes it's Survivor contest, it has such a time voting people off the "island".

That being said, I respect the owners' decision to run this board as they sees fit. I merely offer my opinion. But in Business terms, I would hope that they consider the damage that their "brand" is suffering, as half of it's users may be finding that the site is becoming less useful than it once was, especially with an alternative available.

I still actively post here at DBSTalk and hope to continue to do so until the air gets too poisonous around here. At the very least I would recommend that you enforce the rule to make people post their real names here (I can't remember whether it was DBSForums or DBSTalk that instituted that originally).


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

While I enjoy any good debate like the next guy, please remember to try and stay on topic about what the original post asked. Also, if you are fed up with what any individual is posting, the ingore list is available to you at any time. Click below to add someone to your ignore list.

http://www.dbstalk.com/profile.php?do=editlist


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

Bill R said:


> Alarmist propaganda? What does that mean?
> 
> And if you really read this and other DBS boards you would know that I also have a DirecTV TiVo and have said (many times) that it is a much better product that my 721. This is not about the 721 and I sure can't be called a DISH zealot. When they screw up (like on software releases), I call them on it.


You're right, and I owe you an apology for singling you out, Bill_R. I probably should have left it more general and referred to the Dish Zealots without any finger pointing. I just used your alias because it was the last reply in the thread.

By the alarmist propaganda, I was referring to the people claiming that anyone speaking bad about Dish and their hardware must be trolls/smear campaign compirtors/etc... and people crying the sky is falling and the forums are going to come to an end because people are negative about a product. I realize I wasn't very clear on that aspect, so hopefully this clears it up.



> I would say Simple Math based on your interpretation of the facts. From the opinions I have seen, It is well known that the Tivo is more feature reach. As for user interface, that is subjective and without a usability test I would not make that statement. Have you seen one? This is easily proven by putting a MAC person in front of a PC and visa versa. So It is hard to prove that statement. Maybe more intuitive from your experience.


I'll concede that the user interface issues are subjective and shouldn't be included as a deficency in the product. I have yet to hear anyone say the UI is BETTER on the 721 than on a Tivo or UTV box, though. But I will assume that there are people who prefer the 721's interface to the competitions and scratch that off the 721 deficiency list for being too subjective.

That, however, still leaves:



> As for the bug list, unless you are privy to both internal bug lists making a statement that listing the bug next to each other only lists the bugs that you are aware of based on your research and does not reflect true bug exposure. This is also highly subjective. I know you say common, but I still feel getting any accuracy here without internal knowledge is impossible. Yes you can comb the boards, but if you notice there are 10 to 1 Dish posting to DirecTV here. Correlating this data would be impossible and a waste of effort in my opinion and would not be accurate.


You don't have to be privvy to the internal bug lists of either of the companies. In fact, it probably works in E*'s favor in this case that we AREN'T privvy to it. I'm going by the public and glaring bugs that have bitten multiple people, can be reproduced on command and affect performance of the system in a measurable way. The 721 has all those in spades. Does the DTivo/Tivo/UTV? Yes, some, but not NEARLY as many, and they are all addressed in a timely fashion for the most part.

Can you really say the DTivo has the same or more bugs than the 721? Off the top of my head, I can name at least 5 MAJOR bugs in the 721 that were either introduced in the last patch of the software OR have been there since who knows when. I can't say the same for UTV (I can't think of any bugs off the top of my head that are still present) and might be able to eke out one or two for Tivo. Maybe you have better access to that sort of information than I do, and I'll concede the point if you can point out the bugs in either or both of those systems that match in severity to the 721's bugs.

So again, the non-public bug lists are irrelevant for the most part in the scope of this thread - it's the public ones that EVERYONE knows about and that affect MANY people that are an issue with the product and whether or not to purchase it.



> I have never heard the statement "I caught NYPD on 721 last night." I have heard "I caught NYPD on TIVO last night". Zealots come in all shapes and sizes.. My experience has been that TIVO folks are much more passionate about there purchase than a 721 person.


That's very true ... I agree with this 100%. Tivo folks can be really ridiculous at times... and that's exactly the point I'm trying to make, which you've basically restated. All these cries of "It's great!" and "It sucks" are all just opinions, what matters in the end is how the product functions, and the 721 does not function on a level comparable to the competition. When trying to make a decision on what to purchase, you want to generally purchase the most functional item you can, for the cheapest price that fills the needs of your intended application. The ONLY reason the 721 is even in the running is because it's the ONLY PVR capable of recording 2 streams off E*'s feed. If it wasn't for this simple and admittedly critically important fact, the 721 would only be purchased by people that have no idea what they are purchasing. No one in their right mind would purchase a $500 721, with all the problems it has in favor of a Tivo, UTV, Replay, etc... box for the same or less price if they could get dual tuner recording straight from the D* stream.

There is not one person on this forum I will believe if they say they'd spend more for an inferior product. If they truely mean they would, then they are to stupid to be allowed to have disposable income to begin with.



> As for the reliability and usability comments, I don't think any of us could make that determination. One, since we are on the leading edge we are tainted by the technology that came before us. I have not seen one usability test comparing the two.


I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here? Can you elaborate on this a bit?

On to BobMurdoch:



> Once again, for any newbies.... take anything said with a grain of salt when the same 5 people are slamming something over and over again. Especially some troll who doesn't even list what city he hails from to dissuade us from the notion that he is someone else posting under an alias so he can have multiple "people" push his agenda.


Nice red herring there... what, exactly, does me not putting down where I live specifically have to do with anything? I could put California, Georgia, Texas, Kansas, Maine... whatever you want in there. Tell me, how exactly would you know I was telling the truth?

If one of the admins wants to verify my posting IP, which I almost always post from, unless it's from home, please feel free to confirm that I am a single person posting to this board, and that I have no other aliases "pushing" some sort of agenda.



> If you like E*'s programming mix then this is their current flagship PVR product until the 921 ships (when I will upgrade to that and give my 721 to my father). If you are a sports nut and NEED Out of Market Football and Baseball then go to D*. Ditto to Yankee fans in NYC.


I like E*'s programming mix, except for the fact I don't get the music channels with my base subscription. I have no interest in sports at all, and thus DTV doesn't have anything I want beyond what E* offers, and E* offers it for half the price.

I have NO brook what so ever with E*'s customer service, or their service packages (aside from the very minor music channel thing). I think it's top notch and leaps ahead of DTV and Cable.

What I do have a problem with is the total lack of support for the 721, the flagship product as you admit, and how utterly crappy it is *compared to every other PVR on the market*.

E* wants to lock in their hardware and not allow outside companies to produce products that work for them... that's fine, but they better tow the line when it comes to offering a competitive product. So far, they are falling way, way short.

The fact is, E* has a proven history of *NOT* being able to produce quality software loads for their hardware. It goes back a LONG, LONG way. With the pricepoint of the 721 where it is, and the feature set/quality of the software, you'd be stupid to buy a 721; a real dumb ass (just like me! I should have researched the 721 more than I did before I purchased). But, like me, I'm sure that a lot of people want the dual tuner direct DBS stream feed recording, and the 721 is the ONLY choice for that, and thus you are FORCED to live with the shoddy software, poor support for the product and total lack of features.

For people who don't have an incredible hate for anything Hughes/GM related (such as myself), D* is a better bargain as far as features and price goes under a lot of circumstances... but if all you want is basic TV, E* can't be beat for the price point of the basic package. Once you move to AT100, (or even AT50 I think) - and you have more than one PVR, D* works out to be much cheaper over the long haul, and you get a quality product to boot.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Inaba said:


> THAT is the hard evidence that will support anything that's said. I've done so, I've MADE that list and posted it here... the Dish Zealots simply can't counter the list, because it's hard, documented fact. The 721 has more problems, a less user-friendly interface and lacks many features of every other PVR on the market. This is simple math, folks and it's easy to see the truth...
> 
> Take a look at the feature set of any other PVR that's available today and compare it against the 721. The 721 falls short (way short). Take a look at the common bugs the other PVRs experience on a daily basis... the 721 has an equal if not greater number of *common* bugs (I'm not even including the uncommon ones found on the 721).


I haven't seen anyone here say that the 721 is better than Tivo or any other PVR. All the "Dish Zealots" have said is that the 721 is a good product and not remotely as bad as Bob Haller claims it is.

Dennis


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

> That, however, still leaves:
> 
> You don't have to be privy to the internal bug lists of either of the companies. In fact, it probably works in E*'s favor in this case that we AREN'T privy to it. I'm going by the public and glaring bugs that have bitten multiple people, can be reproduced on command and affect performance of the system in a measurable way. The 721 has all those in spades. Does the DTivo/Tivo/UTV? Yes, some, but not NEARLY as many, and they are all addressed in a timely fashion for the most part.
> 
> ...


I can't say anything about the DTivo, Reply or the 721 in regards to reliability. I don't have current versions of all three. In fact I don't have any.  I can say that the 508 has been solid for me and that is about as far as I could go. I have not scoured the net to find bugs relating to each device either. We can disagree on this point, I don't think that this can be determined accurately by walking through forums.



> There is not one person on this forum I will believe if they say they'd spend more for an inferior product. If they truly mean they would, then they are to stupid to be allowed to have disposable income to begin with.


Well features are not the only thing that one considering when making a purchase. Other things are considered as well like how well it fits into a person environment and does it meet there needs. Everyone is not driven by cool features alone. If that was the case then we would all buy the TV with the most features offered and that surely is not the case.



> As for the reliability and usability comments, I don't think any of us could make that determination. One, since we are on the leading edge we are tainted by the technology that came before us. I have not seen one usability test comparing the two.
> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here? Can you elaborate on this a bit?
> 
> 
> ...


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

bunkers said:


> You not only really SHOULD have two cable feeds, but you likely need to upgrade to DishPRO LNB(s) if you don't already have them. Does you LNB on your DISH(es) have a big DP (dish pro) on them? If not, then you probably have a classic twin LNB and would minimally need a DP twin and a DP34 switch to use your 721 with both recievers. Thats an extra $75 to $100 on ebay.


You need 2 lines if you want to use both tuners. Otherwise you might as well get a 508 or 510 because all the reasons to get a 721 are gone if you only hook up one tuner.

As for upgrading to DishPro equipment, I got updgraded free when they installed the second dish for my locals. They couldn't get the 721 to see all 3 sats with the legacy equipment, so I got a free upgrade out of it.

Dennis


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

The bugs are really irritating when they happen but for the most part it is a wonderful machine. The bugs do not happen most of the time but more than they did before the release of 1.15


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

E advanced tech told me there is SOME evdence the 721 is less stable on dishpro because of software issues. Its not confirmed yet/

Personally I think 721 users should stick with legacy for the moment, and wish I had.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

To answer the original question to Bowtieman, no, the 721 is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Yes, it has it's problems but with my experience, it does what it supposed to do. 

With that said though it's very easy to get aggravated when it misses a recording or locks up especially when it was supposed to record an important show. I've had this happen a couple of times. 

I would NOT buy another one and you might want to wait until the 522 is available to see if that one fares better.


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## Bowtieman (Aug 13, 2003)

I would NOT buy another one and you might want to wait until the 522 is available to see if that one fares better.[/QUOTE]

I haven't read anything on the 522. Is it a dual tuner as well. Any ideas on when Dish will release it.

Thanks for all of your responses. It is helping me to make my mind up. I just wished I didn't want a dual tuner.

If I was sure a dual tuner TIVO would interface with my dish system, without rewiring everything in my house, I would look into them a little more than I have.


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

Bowtieman said:


> I would NOT buy another one and you might want to wait until the 522 is available to see if that one fares better.


I haven't read anything on the 522. Is it a dual tuner as well. Any ideas on when Dish will release it.
...[/QUOTE]

Given the same choices in hardware as available right now - I WOULD buy the 721 again. Is it perfect? -No. Does it do what I got it to do? -Yes. Could it be better? - Of course!

I'd be cautious about looking to the 522. Just remember, not so long ago the 721 was the answer. There's always going to be some new product that will be infinitely better. If you want HDTV, on the other hand, then I definitely recommend you wait and see what new hardware develops.

But as for the 721? If you want a dual tuner PVR I think its as good a choice as is currently available. If they were as bad as "everyone" :sure: seems to think they are I doubt they would still be pulling such high prices on ebay and retail.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Right now I wouldn't buy another 721 even if they dropped the price to $199. As I mentioned, I have one 721 and a DirecTV TiVo (the Hughes HDVR2). If I were looking for another receiver I would go to one of the local electronic stores and pick up another TiVo for $99. The $99 TiVos only have a 40 GB drive but they are easy to upgrade. You can pick up a 120GB drive for about $80 if you shop around.

As for the 522, right now I wouldn't even consider it. DISH has NEVER been known for getting a new model out bug free and the DVOD fee, in its present form (per receiver and void of features that the other vendor has), is completely unacceptable to me.


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

Bill R said:


> Right now I wouldn't buy another 721 even if they dropped the price to $199. As I mentioned, I have one 721 and a DirecTV TiVo (the Hughes HDVR2). If I were looking for another receiver I would go to one of the local electronic stores and pick up another TiVo for $99. The $99 TiVos only have a 40 GB drive but they are easy to upgrade. You can pick up a 120GB drive for about $80 if you shop around.
> 
> As for the 522, right now I wouldn't even consider it. DISH has NEVER been known for getting a new model out bug free and the DVOD fee, in its present form (per receiver and void of features that the other vendor has), is completely unacceptable to me.


Is that $99 TiVo dual tuner and the price for existing customers? Don't forget, your actual price is over $200 for a single channel tuner after a couple of years because you have to pay for the TiVo service. Yeah, TiVo is better DVR and Dish is trying to charge a fee with some of their newer models. But can someone actually point to an equivalent 2-tuner DVR receiver from Direct TV that is really that much better, cheaper, ...? I think if you prefer Dish programming - you get Dish. If you prefer Direct-TV - you get that. Anyone fed up with their 721 and want to get rid of it - I'll gladly pay $199 for it!


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

> Is that $99 TiVo dual tuner and the price for existing customers? Don't forget, your actual price is over $200 for a single channel tuner after a couple of years because you have to pay for the TiVo service. Yeah, TiVo is better DVR and Dish is trying to charge a fee with some of their newer models. But can someone actually point to an equivalent 2-tuner DVR receiver from Direct TV that is really that much better, cheaper, ...? I think if you prefer Dish programming - you get Dish. If you prefer Direct-TV - you get that. Anyone fed up with their 721 and want to get rid of it - I'll gladly pay $199 for it!


I can point to one... and it is the UTV box. Flay me alive for reccomending a Microsoft based box, but the UTV is really a workhorse beast and has a nice interface (if a bit slow and aging) and is absolutely FLAWLESS.

I don't think they make them anymore, but you can pick them up on Ebay pretty cheap.

If I were to go to DTV and not buy a DTivo, the UTV box would be my choice.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

pjmrt said:


> Is that $99 TiVo dual tuner and the price for existing customers?


Yes, it is. And you can get that price directly from DirecTV or from your local electronics store.



pjmrt said:


> Don't forget, your actual price is over $200 for a single channel tuner after a couple of years because you have to pay for the TiVo service. Yeah, TiVo is better DVR and Dish is trying to charge a fee with some of their newer models. But can someone actually point to an equivalent 2-tuner DVR receiver from Direct TV that is really that much better, cheaper, ...? I think if you prefer Dish programming - you get Dish. If you prefer Direct-TV - you get that. Anyone fed up with their 721 and want to get rid of it - I'll gladly pay $199 for it!


ALL of the current DirecTV TiVos are DUAL tuner.

I feel that it is worth paying for the TiVo service because I see some real value added. The TiVo fee is PER ACCOUNT while the DISH fee on their new receivers is PER RECEIVER. I know this isn't a issue for the 721 but it could be in the future. I am very concerned that it is just a matter of time before DISH puts the DVOD fee on existing receivers. They have never said that the DVR freatures are going to be free forever.

DISH allows you to record a program and has the standard DVR/VCR features. Until DISH comes up with features like season pass, named based recording, showcases, and everything else that TiVo has, I feel that it is not a great receiver.

I'm not saying that the 721 isn't a good receiver. I am saying that it isn't as good as the DirecTV TiVos.


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

Bill R said:


> ALL of the current DirecTV TiVos are DUAL tuner.
> .


I stand corrected and if one can really get that receiver for $99 (and it appears you can) it definetly is a better deal. The HD a little small but saving a couple hundred dollars is probably a good trade.

I actually chose dish over directtv because of programming. The hardware was what was necessary. Having tried the dual channel PVR - wouldn't go back to single channel receiver. Just like after getting dishplayer a while back, I wouldn't go back to a non-PVR system. I have no doubt that TiVo is a better PVR - but I'm not sure I would pay monthly just for it. And I would still choose the 721 - I really don't have any complaints. But I DO wish that Charlie and company would wake up and realize that he really does have close competition. Many area cable companies and DirectTV have caught up and may leave Dish behind if E* is not careful.


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## Kagato (Jul 1, 2002)

$99?!?! In the online and mail order channel you can get the DirecTivo 2's for under $50. I see links for those deals come up on my website banner ads all the time. That's new customer, standard install, blah blah blah. Retail brick and morter is about $99. 

This poses a problem for Dish. Last year if you were lucky and struct just when the time was right and you could get DirecTivo for $99 via the online/mail order channel. Most retail stores were selling them for about $199. This made it easy for Dish, sign them up and add a simple $99 upcharge for the DVR.

Now that DirecTivo's are going for under $50 they are basically matching E*'s current price. It's a no brainer to go with Tivo if the price is the same. Assuming what I read about the dealer chats the DishDVRs will soon be free in certain plans (not including "VOD" fee). Even with Dish giving them away paying an extra $50 for Tivo is still very tempting. 

If Dish wants to remain the king of DVRs they'll have to really up the ante in the software side. The price points are just too low for either side to blow anyone out of the water.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I wouldnt buy another 721 or even accept one for free with any programming commitment. The trouble is loosing confidence in any software from this company.

If it wasnt for the bugs it would be a great box


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