# Sick of R15 - Going Back to TiVo



## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

Hi gang. I'm a newbie to DBSTalk and need your help. 

We recently "upgraded" our Samsung SIR-S4040R (TiVo) to a new 100 hour box from DirecTV. Since then I have learned about the trials, tribulations and HORRORS of the R15-500. My box is now starting to act up after about 3-4 weeks of service. The most heinous crime is its failure to recognize and record First Run shows. 

In reading these forums I realize I am not alone and that this is a DirecTV software problem. Well, I've had enough! We migrated from our Samsung box only because of its capacity. 35 hours was not enough for us, but what good is the 100 hour R15 if the thing doesn't catch the shows? 

I've decded to get a capacity upgrade kit from weaknees.com for the Samsung TiVo and put it back on line. Can anyone tell me what I'll have to do to "reactivate" the box with my DirecTV service? The R15 came with a new access card, so I still have the one from DTV in the Samsung. The Samsung also came from DTV. 

1. What do I do after I plug in the old box to get it back on my DTV service?
2. What do I do to return this leased R15?
3. Will I encounter any termination charges for pitching back their piece of crap?

Please advise. 

Desslock


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## victor20170 (Nov 21, 2005)

You definitely should participate in at least one of the CEs before returning your R15.

My R15 is working better than ever after the last CE.

Victor


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

To re-activate your Tivo, simply call DirecTV and give the CSR your serial number, RID (if it has one) and access card number. Should be no problem at all.

I agree with the comment about giving the R15 a bit more time. However in answer to your second question, again call a CSR and tell them you want to de-activate the R15. They should automatically set it up to send you a return kit for the unit. When you get that, box it up and send it back. Keep a copy of the tracking number.

If they don't automatically set you up for a return, you can either ask them about it specifically, or just hold onto the unit and wait for them to figure out they want it back.

Carl


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

victor20170 said:


> You definitely should participate in at least one of the CEs before returning your R15.
> 
> My R15 is working better than ever after the last CE.
> 
> Victor


Why would one want to try out untested software when they have already voiced their displeasure with the current "tested" software? If this CE works so great, then it should go national.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

victor20170 said:


> You definitely should participate in at least one of the CEs before returning your R15.
> 
> My R15 is working better than ever after the last CE.
> 
> Victor


If he can fix his TiVo, why bother with the R15 POS? Six year old TiVo's work perfectly. If you can live without caller ID that works when it wants to.

I'm on my 3rd R15 in 3 months. Two DOA's (spontaneous reboots) and the last one now awaiting a return box no longer responds to the remote control. The IR receiver has gone south.

The "dead" TiVo has a bad hard drive. Other than that, it worked just fine for 6 years. Never missed a beat. Never misbehaved. Should have just Instant Cake'd it and saved myself a whole bunch of grief. Not to mention the R15's absolutely worst designed remote control I have ever seen!

Technology marches on.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

We got our R15-500 close to 18 months ago and not even a reset. We have a Samsung 4040 as well, it to has always worked well.(replaced cooling fan) The R15 has had a few glitches along the way but quite stable overall. FWIW


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

I agree, go back to your TIVO! I returned my R15. It never worked right, locked up, missed recordings, etc. The TIVO (mine is an R10) is far superior. I can't understand why a flagship carrier like Directv would go with a box like the R15 when TIVO is/was far superior.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

I feel for those of you that are having troubles with your R15. By all means, find something that works for you and if that is going back to a Tivo, then enjoy. 

Also know that there are a number of R15 users that have never (or almost never) had a problem with their R15. For them, the R15 is not a POS. 

As to when the CE for the R15 will go national, we don't know but I would expect it to be very soon. As many who have it can attest, this latest firmware is much improved.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

jwd45244 said:


> I feel for those of you that are having troubles with your R15. By all means, find something that works for you and if that is going back to a Tivo, then enjoy.
> 
> Also know that there are a number of R15 users that have never (or almost never) had a problem with their R15. For them, the R15 is not a POS.
> 
> As to when the CE for the R15 will go national, we don't know but I would expect it to be very soon. As many who have it can attest, this latest firmware is much improved.


I have no doubt that at least some R15's are relatively problem free. But how long did it take for DirecTV to get them to that point? There is no excuse for the way premature release of this (to be kind) half-baked product.

This POS hardware shouldn't have been released without thorough testing. It is obvious that never happened. Can you imagine what would have happened to a hardware manufacturer that released this directly (not through DirecTV) to the public?

How many R15's would be out there if people had a choice between TiVo and NDS? How many former TiVo owners absolutely HATE the R15 versus those who think the R15 is just as good?

I rest my case.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> I have no doubt that at least some R15's are relatively problem free. But how long did it take for DirecTV to get them to that point? There is no excuse for the way premature release of this (to be kind) half-baked product.


I got two of the very first R15's that were produced (in Nov 2005). Both worked pretty well from the start.


ShiningBengal said:


> How many R15's would be out there if people had a choice between TiVo and NDS? How many former TiVo owners absolutely HATE the R15 versus those who think the R15 is just as good?


And herein lies the primary issue - the significant difference between how the R15 works versus how the Tivo based unit works. The overwhelming majority of people who are unhappy with the R15 are DirecTivo users. People who never used a Tivo DVR first, find the R15 much easier to adapt to and use.



ShiningBengal said:


> I rest my case.


As do I. Two sides to every story.

Carl


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

carl6 said:


> I got two of the very first R15's that were produced (in Nov 2005). Both worked pretty well from the start.
> 
> And herein lies the primary issue - the significant difference between how the R15 works versus how the Tivo based unit works. The overwhelming majority of people who are unhappy with the R15 are DirecTivo users. People who never used a Tivo DVR first, find the R15 much easier to adapt to and use.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree. Maybe more than two sides. However, I had no preconceived notions about the R15. Of course, having two DOA units right off the bat didn't endear me to the product.

That said, I tried--believe me, I tried--to warm up to the user interface. It is completely non-intuitive. I never cracked the manual on my TiVo's and learned how to use them quickly and easily.

I sell very complex business information systems. I am technically oriented by nature and by profession. Odd that I should find the R15 so, how should I state it? Inelegant. Non-intuitive. Clunky.

But there are two sides or more to every issue.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> Why would one want to try out untested software when they have already voiced their displeasure with the current "tested" software? If this CE works so great, then it should go national.


To the first question: 
What do you have to lose? If you are that unhappy, that you are going to go back... why not try the latest "software" version, even if it is not a national release yet

As to the second version:
It eventually is going to go national, but with the volume of R15's out there (and I think most of you would fall over shocked by the number of R15's that are out there), they are simply being cautious with a national release of it...

Trying to get as many loose ends tied up on it, so it is a quality base version to start working on the next "cycle" of the software.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

carl6 said:


> And herein lies the primary issue - the significant difference between how the R15 works versus how the Tivo based unit works. The overwhelming majority of people who are unhappy with the R15 are DirecTivo users. People who never used a Tivo DVR first, find the R15 much easier to adapt to and use.


While it may be true that the majority of people who are unhappy with the R15 user interface are former Tivo users, I would not think that it is true that the majority of people unhappy with the flaws in the R15 are Tivo users.

I am not a former Tivo user. But I have friends who have Tivo (both DirecTivo and S/A cable Tivos), and I know from experience at their homes that I prefer the R15 user interface better as well as some R15 features (like 90 minute buffer).

But I hate the bugginess and unreliability of the R15. Back in the fall, the machine was so unreliable, that my wife told me to send it back and cancel DTV for cable. Since the January update, it is more stable, though obviously many documented features do not work properly (like Channels I Get and AutoRecord). But in the last week, the machine has locked up twice (requiring RBR) and partial recorded once. And now the Wife Acceptance Factor is starting to decline again.

I don't have to be a former Tivo user to know that I don't like missed recordings, lock ups, and nonworking features.


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## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> To the first question:
> What do you have to lose? If you are that unhappy, that you are going to go back... why not try the latest "software" version, even if it is not a national release yet
> 
> As to the second version:
> ...


First of all, I have to say that my R15-500 has not been anywhere near as bad as many of the other posts in here. I have not had to RBR at all, I havn;t had any major collapses. The only real issues I have are: 
1. Jumpiness in picture and sound of recordings (about 3-4 "hiccups" per 1 hour show) 
2. Loss of sound during playback (~1 2-minute occurrence per 4 shows)
2. Slow response from remote (which I could live with)
3. Channels I Get (which I could live without until it comes back)
4. The, I'll say it, WEIRD user interface structure (which I could get used to)

But the missing of shows and First Run problems are absolutly inexcusable. In the 4 years using my Samsung, it failed to record 2 episodes. The R15 failed to tag 3 episodes on DAY 1.

As to D* waiting to get the bugs out of the CE before national release... Why would they start now? They obviously didn't do that prior.

By the way, I started out on 10FA, so I didn't get to experience the horrors of the previous versions. But if I'm on the last generation of 10FA, how many problems will there be in the V1 of the next release? I do code testing at work, I have no interest in doing it at home and paying DTV for the honor to do it.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

desslock said:


> Hi gang. I'm a newbie to DBSTalk and need your help.
> 
> We recently "upgraded" our Samsung SIR-S4040R (TiVo) to a new 100 hour box from DirecTV. Since then I have learned about the trials, tribulations and HORRORS of the R15-500. My box is now starting to act up after about 3-4 weeks of service. The most heinous crime is its failure to recognize and record First Run shows.
> 
> ...


Realize that Directv signed a 3 year extension to support the Directivo format After
3 years your Directivo could become a door stop unless Tivo's CEO can talk to Liberty Media like he hopes he can.I feel the problems between Directv and Tivo were due to money and control of features which Tivo thought Directv couldn't live
without,I would think that they feel different now.My daughter has an R10&R15,she likes the R15 better.I have never had a Tivo and even if I did I have checked out both formats.For what I desire in a DVR the R15 has the best features that I need in a DVR.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

desslock said:


> First of all, I have to say that my R15-500 has not been anywhere near as bad as many of the other posts in here. I have not had to RBR at all, I havn;t had any major collapses. The only real issues I have are:
> 1. Jumpiness in picture and sound of recordings (about 3-4 "hiccups" per 1 hour show)
> 2. Loss of sound during playback (~1 2-minute occurrence per 4 shows)
> 2. Slow response from remote (which I could live with)
> ...


I have the R15-500 also running 10FA need to know have you tried to reformat the DVR?.For that it's Menu/Settings/Setup/Reset/Reset Everything.When the screen goes from black to blue press down on the down arrow and record button at the same time on the DVR for 15 to 20 seconds.When you release the record button should stay on.
Doing this you will lose all recordings and favorites lists,but it is well worth it cause it does make a difference.

P.S. Also don't have anything stacked on top of the DVR.It can overheat. .Also check your fan it should come on at 54C and go off at 50C.Also double check your surge suppressor that the DVR is plugged into.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

I suppose Directivo users would have a harder time adopting to the R15. I still cant get my HR20 to not record on channels I don't receive.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It eventually is going to go national, but with the volume of R15's out there (and I think most of you would fall over shocked by the number of R15's that are out there)


I'm sure I'd be shocked to find out how many series 1 DTiVos were sold at the $400 price point. I doubt I'd be shocked to find out how many R15s were given away for free (hell, even I have one).


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

walters said:


> I'm sure I'd be shocked to find out how many series 1 DTiVos were sold at the $400 price point. I doubt I'd be shocked to find out how many R15s were given away for free (hell, even I have one).


That's how I got mine too! .Maybe they figure how can you complain when you can get one for Free!.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

jal said:


> I suppose Directivo users would have a harder time adopting to the R15. I still cant get my HR20 to not record on channels I don't receive.


Do you use a favorites list?.Don't know only know I do and don't have that problem.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Jhon -- when you set up a search/autorecord it will find and try to record on any channel in the guide, regardless of whether the channel is included in your favorites list or if you receive the channel.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> Do you use a favorites list?.Don't know only know I do and don't have that problem.


No, I don't use a favorites lists


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

The channels I receive is a known problem. It is discussed at length in lots of forums and is not a problem unique to the R15.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

walters said:


> I'm sure I'd be shocked to find out how many series 1 DTiVos were sold at the $400 price point. I doubt I'd be shocked to find out how many R15s were given away for free (hell, even I have one).


Doesn't pretty much every D* customer? :lol:


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

jwd45244 said:


> The channels I receive is a known problem. It is discussed at length in lots of forums and is not a problem unique to the R15.


No it's a problem unique to the DVR+ units (R15 and HR20). Tivo units have a work around in that Tivos allow you to edit the CIR. Yes, seems simple but appears to be something the New Technology DVR+ units just can't handle. Myself, I guess I prefer the "old technology" units.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Jhon69 said:


> Realize that Directv signed a 3 year extension to support the Directivo format After
> 3 years your Directivo could become a door stop unless Tivo's CEO can talk to Liberty Media like he hopes he can.I feel the problems between Directv and Tivo were due to money and control of features which Tivo thought Directv couldn't live
> without,I would think that they feel different now.My daughter has an R10&R15,she likes the R15 better.I have never had a Tivo and even if I did I have checked out both formats.For what I desire in a DVR the R15 has the best features that I need in a DVR.


IIRC UTV units haven't been supported in years, but they still get signals from D*. At least those that are still running.

Maybe in three years the DTivos will become doorstops, but for some the R15 is already a doorstop.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

bto4wd said:


> No it's a problem unique to the DVR+ units (R15 and HR20). Tivo units have a work around in that Tivos allow you to edit the CIR. Yes, seems simple but appears to be something the New Technology DVR+ units just can't handle. Myself, I guess I prefer the "old technology" units.


Old technology that works correctly trumps new technology that doesn't...every time!


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

walters said:


> I'm sure I'd be shocked to find out how many series 1 DTiVos were sold at the $400 price point. I doubt I'd be shocked to find out how many R15s were given away for free (hell, even I have one).


I could be wrong, but it seems to me like you are saying that D* didn't give away the Dtivos for free, and also that they can only give away the R15. Neither of which is true.

I got both of the R10s (one of which has been replaced with an R15) and two of the three R15s I have for free. I paid $100 for the other R15.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

ShiningBengal said:


> Old technology that works correctly trumps new technology that doesn't...every time!


I bet you still listen to 8-track tapes because CDs skip. :lol:


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

TigersFanJJ said:


> I could be wrong, but it seems to me like you are saying that D* didn't give away the Dtivos for free, and also that they can only give away the R15. Neither of which is true.
> 
> I got both of the R10s (one of which has been replaced with an R15) and two of the three R15s I have for free. I paid $100 for the other R15.


When the Series 1 DirecTiVo's were introduced, you could not buy a receiver (or get one free) of any kind from DirecTV. All were sold either by retail outlets, or by independent contractor installers.

I bought a Philips DSR6000 for $399.00. I paid an additional $200 for lifetime TiVo service--which I still have in force on my DirecTV account. The other options were monthly, I think $9.99, or yearly, $99.99. Best money I ever spent on a consumer electronics device.

I still have it, and other than a bad hard drive, it works flawlessly. I am thinking of repairing it with Instant Cake since the only thing wrong with it is the bad drive. I have a 250 GB IDE WD drive I'm not using. I have had it with the R15's and all of their little (and not so little) bugaboos.

I really don't care personally what happens with the R15 model, since DirecTV is contractually obligated to support TiVo for close to 3 more years. That DSR6000 is over six years old, and I'm sure I can coax another 3 years out of it.

Seems like the right thing to do--I really dislike the user interface on the R15--even if it were otherwise as reliable as my old TiVo.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

TigersFanJJ said:


> I bet you still listen to 8-track tapes because CDs skip. :lol:


Closely read what he said. If the old technology (8 track in your example) works better than new technology (CDs) then the statement he made is correct. 8 Tracks would trump CDs every time.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

bto4wd said:


> Closely read what he said. If the old technology (8 track in your example) works better than new technology (CDs) then the statement he made is correct. 8 Tracks would trump CDs every time.


Where are you coming from with that? CD's were an obvious improvement over 8 track tapes (which had long been obsoleted by Dolbyized Cassettes before anyone heard of CD's) and CD's were an immediate success, both from a useability standpoint as well as sonically. Yes, they have improved over time, and decreased in price. But they were much, much better than cassettes, and certainly 8-tracks.

8 tracks were notoriously unreliable, had annoying hiss and cross talk. No one mourned the passing of 8 track "technology." It DIDN'T work!

Now if CD's degraded horribly over a short time, were plagued with skips and poor fidelity, they never would have been accepted by the market. This was not the case.

I think you should reconsider the logic in your post. It makes no sense at all.

(Apologies to bto4wd--obviously I meant to quote TigersFanJJ in my rebuttal and not you!


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

ShiningBengal said:


> Where are you coming from with that? CD's were an obvious improvement over 8 track tapes (which had long been obsoleted by Dolbyized Cassettes before anyone heard of CD's) and CD's were an immediate success, both from a useability standpoint as well as sonically. Yes, they have improved over time, and decreased in price. But they were much, much better than cassettes, and certainly 8-tracks.
> 
> 8 tracks were notoriously unreliable, had annoying hiss and cross talk. No one mourned the passing of 8 track "technology." It DIDN'T work!
> 
> ...


I was making a joke. That's why my post had the smiley laughing in it. Although, I really do hate that you spent all that time and effort to convince me that CDs are better than an 8 track.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

ShiningBengal said:


> When the Series 1 DirecTiVo's were introduced, you could not buy a receiver (or get one free) of any kind from DirecTV. All were sold either by retail outlets, or by independent contractor installers.


My comparison was from when D* offered both tivo based products and the R15 at the same time. You can't rightfully compare the price of the Dtivo when it was first introduced to the price that it and the R15 were at when both were offered. Had it been the R15 that was released back when the Dtivo was first introduced, I'm sure it would have been $400 too.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Actually 8-track and cassette is and example of where old technology that works trumps new technology that doesn't.

Cassette tapes were introduced before 8-track. 8-track came out second, with the supposed advantage of providing continuous music (versus having to flip a cassette). 

But 8-track tape didn't work since the tape running over itself led to quick degradation of the tape, resulting in jams or frequent broken tape. Also 8-track had the annoying feature of switching tracks mid-song.

The better, but older, technology of cassette tapes allowed cassette tapes to remain popular long after 8-track tapes faded from the market.


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

The first DVR I owned was an R15-300. After putting up with black recordings, missed recordings, and general bad behavior I bought a TIVO. I agree the UI of the R15 is better, but that is it. The TIVO did what was expected of it as best it could. I use the R15 as a bedroom reciever now. It still acts up 1 out of 3 times I ask it to do something. This after formatting the HD twice in the past year and a half. I have no hope for the R15 to ever be "right."



carl6 said:


> I got two of the very first R15's that were produced (in Nov 2005). Both worked pretty well from the start.
> 
> And herein lies the primary issue - the significant difference between how the R15 works versus how the Tivo based unit works. The overwhelming majority of people who are unhappy with the R15 are DirecTivo users. People who never used a Tivo DVR first, find the R15 much easier to adapt to and use.
> 
> ...


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

There are some great quotes in this thread that nail the R15!

bto4wd:
"Maybe in three years the DTivos will become doorstops, but for some the R15 is already a doorstop."

desslock:
"As to D* waiting to get the bugs out of the CE before national release... Why would they start now? They obviously didn't do that prior."


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## profbobo (Jan 22, 2006)

Some love their TiVo (R10, etc.) and some love their DirecTV DVR (R15, H20). DirecTV should recognize they have two markets and sell to both. 

Two DVRs:

DirecTV DVR Plus
DirecTV DVR Premium with TiVo

Charge more for the TiVo box. Leave the DVR fee the same.

The argument that CSRs will only need to support one interface is junk anyway. They are currently supporting multiple interfaces. Besides, it’s not like the CSRs are really savvy on interface troubleshooting.

1.	Hello, thanks for calling DirecTV.
2.	Press the reset button or unplug.
3.	Did that work?
4.	No, okay, let me send you to level 2.

I for one love my TiVo. Had a Sony T-60 and Philips DSR6000R. Wanted something with more storage. The R15s just came out so we bought two and sold our TiVo models on eBay. Two months later I sold the R15s on eBay and bid on a couple R10s.

It sucked when DirecTV decided to no longer offer new TiVo boxes. I really like the DirecTV service, price, programming, etc. (Could use fewer shopping channels though.) and I really like my TiVo. I just know in a few years when I want to upgrade to new stuff I’ll have to pick one over the other.

So, I propose they offer two DVRs. 

Anybody else for two DVR offerings from DirecTV?

DirecTV DVR Plus
DirecTV DVR Premium with TiVo

Let TiVo make their boxes. I'd probably pay $100 more for the TiVo box over the R15. Let TiVo get them up to speed with all of TiVos new features.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

Again, not to diminish the problems that people are having but there are many of us that were former DirecTivo users have R15s and have had little to no problems and have never looked back.

So sweeping generalizations about the lack of quality surrounding the R15 are just that.

BTW, if you notice from my signature that I am replacing my R15. It is because we are replacing the TV that the R15 supplies with an HDTV. The R15 will find a new home (probably my home office).


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

profbobo said:


> Two DVRs:
> 
> DirecTV DVR Plus
> DirecTV DVR Premium with TiVo
> ...


Ding! Ding! Ding! :righton:

D*, are you listening? I would gladly pay a premium DVR feed to be able to run Tivo software on the DVR+ platform.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding! :righton:
> 
> D*, are you listening? I would gladly pay a premium DVR feed to be able to run Tivo software on the DVR+ platform.


The question is...

Are there enough subscribers, willing to pay a premium... to offset any additional cost of a new contract, R&D to put the TiVo software on the DVR+ platform (all 5 variations of the hardware), what ever TiVo wants for that new system, and the support for that system.

To further that...
Which is higher, the loss of revenue of those people that leave because there is no TiVo powered unit.... or any potentional loss for offering a TiVo offering (in addition to their existing DVR+ platform).

It is at the end of the day a buisness... 
It would have to be financially feaseable with a certain period of time.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

profbobo said:


> Let TiVo make their boxes. I'd probably pay $100 more for the TiVo box over the R15. Let TiVo get them up to speed with all of TiVos new features.


Would you be willing to pay $500 or $1000 more to get the Tivo? Would you pay $25 a month more to have it on your account? Would you be willing to invest a couple of million dollars to set up a niche company to serve this very limited market?

I don't know what the actual numbers are, but I have no doubt they would be significant for DirecTV to break even (as Earl noted).

Carl


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bto4wd said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding! :righton:
> 
> D*, are you listening? I would gladly pay a premium DVR feed to be able to run Tivo software on the DVR+ platform.


You would and perhaps a few thousand others. But that's not nearly enough to pay for the millions in R&D and development, ongoing licensing fees, greater support costs, etc. to make it feasible.

98% of the people out there are just looking for a "digital vcr" and nothing more. Anything beyond that is either icing on the cake or stuff they aren't interested in.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> You would and perhaps a few thousand others. But that's not nearly enough to pay for the millions in R&D and development, ongoing licensing fees, greater support costs, etc. to make it feasible.
> 
> 98% of the people out there are just looking for a "digital vcr" and nothing more. Anything beyond that is either icing on the cake or stuff they aren't interested in.


I'm very glad you have access to these types of figures and can so definitively quote them. Myself, I have no idea how many or what percentage of customers would be interested in this option so I won't attempt to argue with your numbers. About all I can do is call attention to the fact that two cable providers have in fact researched this option and have made the decision to offer their customers a choice in what DVR they wish to use. I can only assume that they found a solid case for their business decision to offer Tivo based DVRs.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bto4wd said:


> I'm very glad you have access to these types of figures and can so definitively quote them. Myself, I have no idea how many or what percentage of customers would be interested in this option so I won't attempt to argue with your numbers. About all I can do is call attention to the fact that two cable providers have in fact researched this option and have made the decision to offer their customers a choice in what DVR they wish to use. I can only assume that they found a solid case for their business decision to offer Tivo based DVRs.


Yea, the only problem with these cable providers is that 3 years later they still don't have anything to market and oh by the way, when they move to Switched Video those old cable boxes will no longer function. Plus cable is looking at moving to MPEG4 now as well since providers like HBO will be providing the programming in MPEG4 (was some recent articles on this).

Thus pretty much any cable box out there today will need to be replaced. Including any Tivo box that they have been working on. I'll bet the Comcast Tivo may never actually make it to market on a mass scale since Comcast is going hard and heavy to Switched Video. Cox has said pretty much nothing about it since their announcement over a year ago (2 years now?).

So yes, I "made up" some numbers. But you've got to realize that most people have no idea what a "Tivo" is. All DVRs are Tivo's to them. Whatever their provider gives them is what they will use and very, very few will pay extra for Tivo software. Sure, hard core Tivo users will be willing to pay extra, but let's face it, there aren't that many. DirecTV has 16.5 million subs. Only 2 to 2.5 million have had Tivo receivers and that number drops weekly. There are more R15s in service now then DirecTivo's and I'd hazzard to guess the HR20 is getting darn close to the number of HR10s out there (and there were only 600K or so of those).

99% of all the new HD subs that DirecTV is signing up and will sign up with all the new HD will have never experienced Tivo. How many will actually pay a premium ($5/$10/?? a month) for Tivo? Virtually none.

That's not to say it can't or won't happen, but truthfully, the numbers just aren't there for the bottom line, that ship left a couple years ago.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

Upstream said:


> Actually 8-track and cassette is and example of where old technology that works trumps new technology that doesn't.
> 
> Cassette tapes were introduced before 8-track. 8-track came out second, with the supposed advantage of providing continuous music (versus having to flip a cassette).
> 
> ...


Cassette tapes were originally developed for use in dictating machines and speach recordings. Their 1-7/8 ips recording speed, high noise threshold, and limited frequency response--maybe up to 5 kHz--made it unsuitable for high fidelity music reproduction. And with stereo, you had the added challenge of putting 4 tracks on a 1/8" wide tape.

Newer technology "that worked" wasn't the old technology that cassettes represented. It was higher playback speeds (requiring thinner tapes that could accommodate 3-1/4 ips playback and thus allow 45 minutes on one side of a two sided tape), newer metalic oxide coatings, and a guy named Thomas Dolby who figured out a way to lower the tape hiss to the point that it was nearly inaudible that wrote the epitaph of 8-tracks.

Part of the reason all this happened was that clearly 8-track tapes were never really ready for prime time in spite of the fact that early on they had much better music fidelity than cassettes.

The complexity of the playback device with its large number of moving parts made the 8-track prone to jammed, tangled tape cartridges and mechanical failure of the deck itself.

The 8-track failed because industry improvements finally put the sound quality of the cassette format on a par with 8-track and manufacturers conquently shifted their R&D efforts towards the cassette. (The lack of Dolby noise reduction was another reason for the 8-track's failure.) The frequent breakdown of the tapes themselves, which could have been avoided by more stringent manufacturing practices pretty much doomed 8-tracks by the end of the 70's. Cassette tapes continued to be popular well past the introduction of Compact Disks in the middle 80's.

Just for the record.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

jwd45244 said:


> Again, not to diminish the problems that people are having but there are many of us that were former DirecTivo users have R15s and have had little to no problems and have never looked back.
> 
> So sweeping generalizations about the lack of quality surrounding the R15 are just that.


"Sweeping" generalizations (what the heck does that mean--aren't all generalizations "sweeping?) aren't invalid. Virtually all valid conclusions we arrive at are based on generalizations. Deductive reasoning _means _generalization, if you care to re-read your Aristotilian logic course texts from college.

It is a fact that R-15's have been extremely buggy even if we believe that your own R-15's have been problem-free. In three months time, I have gone through the same number of problematic R-15's. Coincidence? I have owned two series 1 DirecTiVo's that still work, even though one of them now lives at my brother's house ( a Sony). The remaining DSR6000 Philips bit the dust 3 months ago because its hard drive failed.

Silly me, I thought "no big deal" if it is replaced by an R-15. Little did I know what kinds of reliability problems I would have, and how vexing the buggy software would be. I finally couldn't take it anymore so I called DirecTV to take back the last one and not replace it.

I had an unused Maxtor Quickview 250 GB HDD and downloaded an Instant Cake image. I loaded the image on that drive, called DirecTV to activate it, and once again, it works perfectly. I will never own another R-15, even if DirecTV finally drops support for the TiVo platform.

Call it a sweeping generalization if you like, but in my experience, R-15's are junk. Heck, DirecTV STILL doesn't have reliable software (CE???) for them. And even if they did, the quality on these units (in my experience) isn't at all on a par with my old Series 1 TiVo's.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

ShiningBengal said:


> When the Series 1 DirecTiVo's were introduced, you could not buy a receiver (or get one free) of any kind from DirecTV. All were sold either by retail outlets, or by independent contractor installers.
> 
> I bought a Philips DSR6000 for $399.00. I paid an additional $200 for lifetime TiVo service--which I still have in force on my DirecTV account. The other options were monthly, I think $9.99, or yearly, $99.99. Best money I ever spent on a consumer electronics device.


I jumped on the bandwagon in 2001 -- I picked up a GXCEBOT from Circuit City for $75. They were sold out of the $400 receivers, so I talked them into selling me the floor model. It was missing the RCA cables (boo hoo!) so I got them down to $75 .... best deal I ever made.

I followed that up with the $200 lifetime DVR fee -- which is going 6 years strong! Can't beat that ...

DirecTV is the only provider whose DVR fee is 'per account' rather than 'per recorder'. That right there swings the value proposition in DirecTV's favor for me.

There is no way that I'm going to go back to living like a caveman with 'live' TV!

... and I'm not going back to paying a per-box DVR fee either. With my current setup, I have a DVR on every TV in the household. It costs me the same per month whether it's a standard reciever or a DVR, so why not ???


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

He's never coming back, get used to it...


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

Jhon69 said:


> That's how I got mine too! .Maybe they figure how can you complain when you can get one for Free!.


Just like cable, right?

I'm sorry. When DirecTV OWNS the machine you are using so that you can purchase the service DirecTV sells, it makes no sense at all require a "down payment" on a lease. That down payment gets you nothing but a requirement to continue to pay for DirecTV service for an additional year or two. Should we make a down payment on the satellites they launch to enable their service too?:nono2:


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

ShiningBengal said:


> Just like cable, right?
> 
> I'm sorry. When DirecTV OWNS the machine you are using so that you can purchase the service DirecTV sells, it makes no sense at all require a "down payment" on a lease. That down payment gets you nothing but a requirement to continue to pay for DirecTV service for an additional year or two. Should we make a down payment on the satellites they launch to enable their service too?:nono2:


Let's see: 
Cable = no upfront (usually) plus $13 a month or more forever for an HD DVR
DirecTV = some upfront ($0 - $199) for an HD DVR with no monthly other then the $4.99 a month you pay for a mirror fee anyone for an extra receiver.

I'll have made up the difference with DirecTV pretty quick while I'd keep on paying forever with cable.

I'll pay upfront with lower to no monthly. But that's just me.

Similar concept to the old Tivo lifetime service. Pay up front and no monthly or montly forever. Take your pick.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Let's see:
> Cable = no upfront (usually) plus $13 a month or more forever for an HD DVR
> DirecTV = some upfront ($0 - $199) for an HD DVR with no monthly other then the $4.99 a month you pay for a mirror fee anyone for an extra receiver.
> 
> ...


You forgot about the monthly DVR fee.

Following example is for one DVR.
Cable = 24 months at $13 = $312 - No commitment, drop service whenever.
DirecTV = 24 months at $4.99 (mirror fee) = $119.76 + 24 months at $5.00 (whatever the DVR fee is now) = $120 + $199 = $438.76 - Locked in for 24 months.

So at the end of that 24 month period, for equipment only you're paying a tad more than cable. Of course your programming is extra and depending on programming the DVR fee is waived. But for a one DVR setup you're paying over $100 more over the 24 month period.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Let's see:
> Cable = no upfront (usually) plus $13 a month or more forever for an HD DVR
> DirecTV = some upfront ($0 - $199) for an HD DVR with no monthly other then the $4.99 a month you pay for a mirror fee anyone for an extra receiver.
> 
> ...


I made no comment how cable compares with DirecTV in pricing. Don't forget, cable typically has ZERO programming commitment, and that may have some bearing on cost.

Now with regard to the $13.00/month--forever??? Who says you have to pay it forever? You pay it as long as there is no better alternative. And you don't have to pay for rapidly depreciating equipment which, after all, you DON'T own with either cable or DirecTV.

The last DirecTV receiver I paid for ($299 for the HR10-250 last August on a lease) will be obsolete by the end of this year. 16 months and it is obsolete. Let's see: $299 / 16 months = $18.68 PLUS the $4.99/month mirroring fee (don't have to pay this with cable, remember) means I paid $23.67/month for the boat anchor. Now I have to buy another receiver that I will not own, and commit to 24 months additional subscription fees.

DirecTV is no consumers' dream. They get you too. Just in a different way.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

ShiningBengal said:


> DirecTV is no consumers' dream. They get you too. Just in a different way.


I don't disagree with you. It's all in how you like to get bent over.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> You forgot about the monthly DVR fee.
> 
> Following example is for one DVR.
> Cable = 24 months at $13 = $312 - No commitment, drop service whenever.
> ...


The only other consideration in this set of calculations is if you have multiple DVR's. My cable company (Comcast) charges $13 per. DirecTV charges $4.99 per plus one DVR fee of $5.99. With 3 DVR's, I would be paying Comcast $39 where I am paying DirecTV $20.96. With DirecTV I save $18.04 a month.

Carl


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## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

Just an update (for anyone that cares).

I have ordered a 215 hour hard drive from Weaknees.com for my Samsung S404 TiVo unit. Ironically, I am also in the need for a new roof, so I am killing several birds with the same stone. 

After my roof is installed, you can bet my dish will be misaligned. I'm going to have D* come out, repoint the dish, run a second line to my bedroom (from the multiswitch already in place), move the [email protected] R15 into the bedroom and put the newly updated, bionic-ultra-mega-hooptie Samsung in the Living room. 

This will give me a 200+ hour TiVo box as a primary (in the living room) and the R15 in the bedroom as a non-critical backup. This will work well, mainly so we can pause TV (and record... shall we say "mature" viewings playable in the proper locale). 

I have to say. after getting used to the r15, I really do like the features that it (tries to ) offer. My number ONE complaint is that it misses recordings. I can't have that from my primary system. However, once the R15 is relegated to the back room (where it currently belongs) I may be able to partake of the CE program without risking bodily harm from my wife. I will really miss that "percent used" indicator on the R15, and the mini-picture thingie. I won't really miss the caller ID as all our phones are cordless with caller ID and the DVR CID takes about 3 rings to show up. By then I've already grabbed one of the 7 handsets in the house. 

The only drawback is that I will be willingly shoveling another $5.99 per month at D* for the "privilege" of continuing to use their crappy device. But, maybe at the end of the 2 year contract they will either have stabled the R15-500 software or have replaced it with something else. 

Personally, I think the CONCEPT of the R15 is great. It offers a LOAD of features that are great to have, and some of them intelligent and well designed. The only problem is that the device does not perform it's core function reliably. Until (and unless) that happens, the R15 will NEVER be ready for Prime Time.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

desslock said:


> Personally, I think the CONCEPT of the R15 is great. It offers a LOAD of features that are great to have, and some of them intelligent and well designed. The only problem is that the device does not perform it's core function reliably. Until (and unless) that happens, the R15 will NEVER be ready for Prime Time.


You have a two year programming committment, not a two year R15 committment. You can deactivate the R15 if you want to after your Tivo is back on-line. If it is leased, you will have to return it.

And the monthly cost will be $4.99 if you keep it active, not $5.99.

Carl


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> You forgot about the monthly DVR fee.
> 
> Following example is for one DVR.
> Cable = 24 months at $13 = $312 - No commitment, drop service whenever.
> ...


Of course, if you paid $200 in 2001 as I did (6 years ago), that works out to $2.77/mo for the last 72 months, and that number continues to decrease as the years go on ....

And keep in mind that if you have more than one DVR in the house (as I do), it's an even better deal - none of the cable companies charge DVR fees per account - it's all per-box. Even TiVo is per-box.


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## audiscotty (Jul 13, 2007)

desslock said:


> Hi gang. I'm a newbie to DBSTalk and need your help.
> 
> We recently "upgraded" our Samsung SIR-S4040R (TiVo) to a new 100 hour box from DirecTV. Since then I have learned about the trials, tribulations and HORRORS of the R15-500. My box is now starting to act up after about 3-4 weeks of service. The most heinous crime is its failure to recognize and record First Run shows.
> 
> ...


I just dropped the R15 as I do not like the delay in audio problem, the fast forward overshoots whereas the Hughes Tivo stops and automatically backs up a couple of seconds. I liked the bookmark feature but that's it. Went back on line to my Hughes Tivo with a new Weekknee 80gb drive (old Maxtor failed, noisey) 2 nites ago and setup is the usual call to D* and faily simple. After you connect and power up your new or old box you will see the acquiring etc screens and get a screen msg to call D* had a lot of storms and thought that caused the pixelation and now see that it is not acquiring satellite signals as well as the R 15. Since I only changed boxes, I know it's not a dish position problem. May have to go back to the R 15, Grrr.. On setup I used the same old access card that was using on 2006 that was still in the Hughes Tivo. D* said the will send me a FedX box to return the R15. Asked if I get a credit on return, response no! but if not returned I will be billed. No termination charges mentioned. Good Luck, Richard


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

dmurphy said:


> Of course, if you paid $200 in 2001 as I did (6 years ago), that works out to $2.77/mo for the last 72 months, and that number continues to decrease as the years go on ....
> 
> And keep in mind that if you have more than one DVR in the house (as I do), it's an even better deal - none of the cable companies charge DVR fees per account - it's all per-box. Even TiVo is per-box.


You are still leaving off the $5.99 mirror fee that you have to pay per box with D*.

However, in my area, even with the mirror fee, for my package/equipment, D* is about $35 cheaper per month than cable.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

audiscotty said:


> I just dropped the R15 as I do not like the delay in audio problem, the fast forward overshoots whereas the Hughes Tivo stops and automatically backs up a couple of seconds. I liked the bookmark feature but that's it. Went back on line to my Hughes Tivo with a new Weekknee 80gb drive (old Maxtor failed, noisey) 2 nites ago and setup is the usual call to D* and faily simple. After you connect and power up your new or old box you will see the acquiring etc screens and get a screen msg to call D* had a lot of storms and thought that caused the pixelation and now see that it is not acquiring satellite signals as well as the R 15. Since I only changed boxes, I know it's not a dish position problem. May have to go back to the R 15, Grrr.. On setup I used the same old access card that was using on 2006 that was still in the Hughes Tivo. D* said the will send me a FedX box to return the R15. Asked if I get a credit on return, response no! but if not returned I will be billed. No termination charges mentioned. Good Luck, Richard


Did you try to reformat the R15?.A reformat gets rid of the old software as the original and makes the latest software as the original software.If after that you still have problems you contact Directv and they will send you another one.Being a leased DVR there isn't any limit of how many you can change out.If it doesn't work right you contact Directv and on their approval they replace it.

Also if you want another R15 you can go online to directv.com/log in/upgrade equipment/enter the code dvr4u2/see if you qualify for a Free R15.I did.

I'm still on my first R15-500.I reformatting the hard drive twice.So far no problems.


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## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm still on my first R15-500.I reformatting the hard drive twice.So far no problems.;)[/QUOTE said:


> Seems to me that having to reformat the hard drive is already a problem. I never had to do anything to my TiVo box, but this R15 seems to be a high maintenance beast.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

desslock said:


> Seems to me that having to reformat the hard drive is already a problem. I never had to do anything to my TiVo box, but this R15 seems to be a high maintenance beast.


To be totally honest with you.I think your trying to compare an old established format(TIVO) with a new format(R15).If TIVO were to say change their format say add picture in guide,90 minute buffer,Hard drive space remaining meter.I believe they(TIVO) would have a problem getting it right.But no they stay the same,cause
they have a name and they are relying on just that,their name.I myself really like the features of the R15(I have compared both formats) and I find TIVO's format stagnate.Also the fact it needs to be updated by phone and not the satellite is one big minus-.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> Also the fact it needs to be updated by phone and not the satellite is one big minus-.


The DTivos do update via SAT, when the updates are first pushed out (and for a while afterwards).... after a period of time, they have to download via SAT.

SA's will update via a network connection, if setup that way.


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## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

Jhon69 said:


> To be totally honest with you.I think your trying to compare an old established format(TIVO) with a new format(R15).If TIVO were to say change their format say add picture in guide,90 minute buffer,Hard drive space remaining meter.I believe they(TIVO) would have a problem getting it right.But no they stay the same,cause
> they have a name and they are relying on just that,their name.I myself really like the features of the R15(I have compared both formats) and I find TIVO's format stagnate.Also the fact it needs to be updated by phone and not the satellite is one big minus-.


The difference is, the R15 fails to perform its primary function, to find and record shows. The TiVo failed to record two programs in 4 years. The R15 fails to even acknowledge that some shows exist. For example, there are 3 shows in SL that doing an episode search yeilds "There are no episodes in the guide". Odddly enough, I see episodes in the gude for weeks to come. And, a menu Search finds them, but series Link doesn't.

Were it not for the plain and simple fact that I simply cannot rely on the R15 to record. In some cases, I cannot even manually set some things to record.

You say the TiVo UI is stagnant. But, it works. Compare it to the old pickup truck that always gets you there. As opposed to the new flashy Jaguar that won't start. That's the R15.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

audiscotty said:


> I just dropped the R15 as I do not like the delay in audio problem, the fast forward overshoots whereas the Hughes Tivo stops and automatically backs up a couple of seconds.


Do you hit the play button or the skip back button when coming out of ffwd? If you hit the skip back button a time or two, it works pretty close to the same as the Dtivo.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The DTivos do update via SAT, when the updates are first pushed out (and for a while afterwards).... after a period of time, they have to download via SAT.
> 
> SA's will update via a network connection, if setup that way.


Ah thanks Earl.So there must be some other reason my daughter's R10 keeps locking up.

Just installed the newRC64RB remote control.This is one cool&awesome RF remote and it makes the R15 respond even faster.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The DTivos do update via SAT, when the updates are first pushed out (and for a while afterwards).... after a period of time, they have to download via SAT.
> 
> SA's will update via a network connection, if setup that way.


I think you meant to say that after a time (quite a long time IIRC) they have to download via phone line, not SAT.

For some reason, I don't see that as drawback. Even if you should miss the orignal SAT download, you can easily connect via phone (even if you aren't permananently connected) to get the current download. I mean, how often does that occur?

Seems like a lot better than having to sit by your R15 and manually download an upgrapde during a few short "windows" of opportunity.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

desslock said:


> The difference is, the R15 fails to perform its primary function, to find and record shows. The TiVo failed to record two programs in 4 years. The R15 fails to even acknowledge that some shows exist. For example, there are 3 shows in SL that doing an episode search yeilds "There are no episodes in the guide". Odddly enough, I see episodes in the gude for weeks to come. And, a menu Search finds them, but series Link doesn't.
> 
> Were it not for the plain and simple fact that I simply cannot rely on the R15 to record. In some cases, I cannot even manually set some things to record.
> 
> You say the TiVo UI is stagnant. But, it works. Compare it to the old pickup truck that always gets you there. As opposed to the new flashy Jaguar that won't start. That's the R15.


Well I can sympathize with you even though I have never had a problem with my
R15-500 except the guide was slow and the reformat fixed that.They are also doing alot of CE's on the R15.You would think because of this they will solve the bugs with these in house DVRs.Of course when they get them fixed I don't think I
have to speculate what might happen to TIVO.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

ShiningBengal said:


> I think you meant to say that after a time (quite a long time IIRC) they have to download via phone line, not SAT.
> 
> For some reason, I don't see that as drawback. Even if you should miss the orignal SAT download, you can easily connect via phone (even if you aren't permananently connected) to get the current download. I mean, how often does that occur?
> 
> Seems like a lot better than having to sit by your R15 and manually download an upgrapde during a few short "windows" of opportunity.


That's just for the CEs.The national upgrades occur automatically.

Unless you don't have patience then you do a forced upgrade.


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## bearymore (Sep 1, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> To be totally honest with you.I think your trying to compare an old established format(TIVO) with a new format(R15).If TIVO were to say change their format say add picture in guide,90 minute buffer,Hard drive space remaining meter.I believe they(TIVO) would have a problem getting it right.But no they stay the same,cause
> they have a name and they are relying on just that,their name.I myself really like the features of the R15(I have compared both formats) and I find TIVO's format stagnate.Also the fact it needs to be updated by phone and not the satellite is one big minus-.


Just looking at the Tivo web site, I saw some obvious new features: online scheduling, home video sharing, tivo-to-go. There are others. If I remember correctly, you could activate a space remaining meter as far back as Series 1 through a backdoor code, so they have programmed it. From the beginning Tivo worked. Had they released something as buggy as the R-15 at the start, Tivo wouldn't have become the Kleenex or Ketchup of DVRs.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

bearymore said:


> Just looking at the Tivo web site, I saw some obvious new features: online scheduling, home video sharing, tivo-to-go. There are others. If I remember correctly, you could activate a space remaining meter as far back as Series 1 through a backdoor code, so they have programmed it. From the beginning Tivo worked. Had they released something as buggy as the R-15 at the start, Tivo wouldn't have become the Kleenex or Ketchup of DVRs.


A lot of the features that TiVo had were stripped out of it because of DirecTV's requirements. The TiVo we came to love would have been loved a lot more if DirecTV had let it be. DirecTV was always paranoid about TiVo making a name for itself through doors opened for it by DirecTV.

Remember when they eliminated the little TiVo man animation when you first booted a TiVo up? Yup, DirecTV didn't like it, so out it went.

Now that's paranoia.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> A lot of the features that TiVo had were stripped out of it because of DirecTV's requirements. The TiVo we came to love would have been loved a lot more if DirecTV had let it be. DirecTV was always paranoid about TiVo making a name for itself through doors opened for it by DirecTV.
> 
> Remember when they eliminated the little TiVo man animation when you first booted a TiVo up? Yup, DirecTV didn't like it, so out it went.
> 
> Now that's paranoia.


Few things:
1) They where not "stripped out", they where never there... you can't strip out was not there to begin with. It is not like you HAD those features on a Series 1 TiVo (piggied backed with a DirecTV Receiver) or any DTivo Series 2.

It wasn't until v6 based software hit the boxes, that the "features" had to be disabled, since TiVo based v6 of the core v4 code.

2) So parinoid, that the first DTiVos where in fact TiVo with DirecTV... and then later DirecTV POWER by TiVo... yep... they were worried about TiVo making a name for it self...

3) As for the TiVo animation... he was still there, you could get it up with a backdoor code... and it was there when it did a software update.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

raott said:


> You are still leaving off the $5.99 mirror fee that you have to pay per box with D*.
> 
> However, in my area, even with the mirror fee, for my package/equipment, D* is about $35 cheaper per month than cable.


True enough, but my point is that whether I have 5 DVR's or 5 "standard" receivers in the house, it's the same price. I couldn't imagine NOT having a DVR on any/all of my TV's at this point. Can you believe that there are people out there who can't pause live TV?

Savages!!


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Few things:
> 1) They where not "stripped out", they where never there... you can't strip out was not there to begin with. It is not like you HAD those features on a Series 1 TiVo (piggied backed with a DirecTV Receiver) or any DTivo Series 2.
> 
> It wasn't until v6 based software hit the boxes, that the "features" had to be disabled, since TiVo based v6 of the core v4 code.
> ...


Well let's be up front here. With 6.1/6.2 MRV code was in the OS. Someone (Tivo or D*) has it disabled for whatever reasons. It was an easy 2 byte change to turn MRV on. Something our family has learned to love with SD Tivos.

There was also an early version of Media Share available on these machines yet not enabled by D*.

Features available on SA versions yet for some reason not readily available on DTivos. Again the why's and whos may never be known, but they were....and still are... there.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

dmurphy said:


> True enough, but my point is that whether I have 5 DVR's or 5 "standard" receivers in the house, it's the same price. I couldn't imagine NOT having a DVR on any/all of my TV's at this point. Can you believe that there are people out there who can't pause live TV?
> 
> Savages!!


I agree completely. When our last D* "receiver" died (late 2005) there was no way I was going to get a non-DVR. Everyone has a DVR now. The only way to go.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Few things:
> 1) They where not "stripped out", they where never there... you can't strip out was not there to begin with. It is not like you HAD those features on a Series 1 TiVo (piggied backed with a DirecTV Receiver) or any DTivo Series 2.
> 
> It wasn't until v6 based software hit the boxes, that the "features" had to be disabled, since TiVo based v6 of the core v4 code.
> ...


Oh. So we are comparing a single tuner TiVo with a dual tuner TiVo? If DirecTV could build a DVR, why didn't they?

And the name of the software interface tuner. It was far more TiVo than it was DirecTV. And DirecTV had to change the name to DirecTV "powered by TiVo?" Do you think that was TiVo's idea, or DirecTV's.

It was a TiVo, and everyone who used it knew it by that name. Who ever, other than DirecTV, EVERY called a DirecTiVo anything but TiVo? Did you tell your friends, "Oh, I have DirecTV, powered by TiVo?" Ever hear the expression, "I TiVo'd it?" You didn't hear, "I DirecTV by TiVo'd it," did you?

TiVo was much more of a brand name than DirecTV in spite of DirecTV's efforts, and DirecTV was very sensitive about that.

And yes. The backdoor codes. This means the feature wasn't stripped out? I think it means it was. Who but a tiny handful of TiVo users knows about backdoor codes? Some of them are downright dangerous unless you know exactly what you are doing??? The only one I know and use is the 30-second advance.

And of course, any time you have to reboot for any reason, you have to reenable them.

Real user-friendly, those back door codes.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> Well let's be up front here. With 6.1/6.2 MRV code was in the OS. Someone (Tivo or D*) has it disabled for whatever reasons. It was an easy 2 byte change to turn MRV on. Something our family has learned to love with SD Tivos.
> 
> There was also an early version of Media Share available on these machines yet not enabled by D*.
> 
> Features available on SA versions yet for some reason not readily available on DTivos. Again the why's and whos may never be known, but they were....and still are... there.


I did note in my post, that the code was in the v6 of the software... because v6 was based of TiVo's core v4 software.

Media Share functions of TiVo called HMO, was not introduced until the core v4 software ws introduced, so again... didn't make it into the builds on DTiVo's until the v6.1 hit the R10... and until v6.2 hit the other DTiVos.

On the ANALOG based SA TiVos, yes they are still there.
But a LOT of those same features had to be disabled in the latest TiVo Series 3 system. Primarily speculated, due to the fact that T3 now works with the DIGITAL data stream from the cable-companies.... aka, similar DIGITAL data stream that DirecTV has had since day one.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> Oh. So we are comparing a single tuner TiVo with a dual tuner TiVo? If DirecTV could build a DVR, why didn't they?


Huh?

I brought up the reference to the Single Tuner SA; Piggied back with the DireTV tuner... as frankly, that is how some of us (me included), first where introduced to TiVo... we purchased SA Philips 40hr (or even smaller) SA TiVos, and connected our DirecTV tuners to it.

As for DirecTV could build a DVR, why didn't they?.... 
You are talking events of 6+ years ago. At the time... DVR's where in their infancy.

Why would DirecTV spend the millions of dollars on R&D to build a product, that at that point... hadn't proven it's self yet.
No, they partnered with not just TiVo but Microsoft as well, to tie in their existing DVR platforms to the system.

Far less expensive, and with near immediate results.

While it took Dish Network (and pretty much every other carrier out there) another few years to get their "home built" DVR on the market.



ShiningBengal said:


> And the name of the software interface tuner. It was far more TiVo than it was DirecTV. And DirecTV had to change the name to DirecTV "powered by TiVo?" Do you think that was TiVo's idea, or DirecTV's.


The Series 1 DTiVo's where introduced... GXCEBOT with the Hughes name on it, was the first to be introduced... and in fact: It was TiVo with DirecTV as it's official name, as it was a product from TiVo... not DirecTV.

About 6 months later, is when "something"... none of us know who initiated it, but that is when TiVo basically "sold" the platform to DirecTV... and DirecTV took over all billing, activation, support, ect for it... Then the name change to DirecTV DVR powered by TiVo... (do we think the Comcast one is going to be TiVo with Comcast... or Comcast with TiVo)...

As for who "asked for it", it probably was DirecTV, as after that change it became "their" product...

So which is it then... was a DirecTV receiver first? or a DVR first?
Even if you disabled DVR funtions, it would still function as a DirecTV receiver.
So I would argue that it was a DirecTV receiver first, that had TiVo DVR features in it.



ShiningBengal said:


> It was a TiVo, and everyone who used it knew it by that name. Who ever, other than DirecTV, EVERY called a DirecTiVo anything but TiVo? Did you tell your friends, "Oh, I have DirecTV, powered by TiVo?" Ever hear the expression, "I TiVo'd it?" You didn't hear, "I DirecTV by TiVo'd it," did you?


I called it "recorded" not TiVoed... and we ran many a polls on TCF, that people woudl refer to it so many different ways. (Recorded, TiVoed, even Taped)

And yes, I did refer to it as a TiVo... as after all... for the year plus prior... that is what I had, and that is what I had when I got the first Series 1.



ShiningBengal said:


> TiVo was much more of a brand name than DirecTV in spite of DirecTV's efforts, and DirecTV was very sensitive about that.


Huh? TiVo was "much more of a brand name" then DirecTV....
Are you kidding? DirecTV is one of the most highly "branded" names out there... and was so at the time.

Are you saying TiVo, Inc... would be ANYWHERE near the household name that it is... if they didn't partner up with DirecTV? DirecTV is still to this day (IIRC), the MAJORITY of TiVo subscription base.. and that is with all the reduction in subscriptions with people moving to the DVR+ platform.



ShiningBengal said:


> And yes. The backdoor codes. This means the feature wasn't stripped out? I think it means it was. Who but a tiny handful of TiVo users knows about backdoor codes? Some of them are downright dangerous unless you know exactly what you are doing??? The only one I know and use is the 30-second advance.
> 
> And of course, any time you have to reboot for any reason, you have to reenable them.
> 
> Real user-friendly, those back door codes.


All those same "backdoor codes" that you are referring too... are the same backdoor codes that exist in the SA non-DirecTV TiVo DVR's...

So not sure what you are referring to that they where "stripped out" by DirecTV... or did DirecTV start to influence what features where in the SA TiVo Inc. recorders as well...

IIRC: 30s SKIP is *STILL* a backdoor code on the T3


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Huh?
> 
> I brought up the reference to the Single Tuner SA; Piggied back with the DireTV tuner... as frankly, that is how some of us (me included), first where introduced to TiVo... we purchased SA Philips 40hr (or even smaller) SA TiVos, and connected our DirecTV tuners to it.
> 
> ...


Earl, I had "DirecTV" back before Hughes bought USSB in 1998. I can't remember when it was, but for a short time, I switched over to Dish. I think the service was cheaper, but I could be wrong about that. I switched back to DirecTV because they had TiVo integrated into their box. I already had an HDR312 Philips SA I was using with Dish, and liked it a lot, but there were issues in having it on a separate box. So I switched, not to DirecTV, but to the company that had integrated it into their box, which happened to be DirecTV.

If Dish had done that, most likely I would still be with Dish. I even looked at their Dish Player, but in comparison with the DSR6000 it was pretty weak. I stayed with DirecTV until this day for one reason, and one reason only. TIVO!

I agree that DirecTV is today a brand name, but people who never heard of DirecTV (or don't remember it if they did) know about TiVo. DirecTV is not a pseudonym for satellite, but TiVo IS a pseudonym for DVR's. I rest my case on who has the stronger brand identity.

Now DirecTV has dropped TiVo. But they have more HD. So for now, I am staying. But I will tell you, if Dish had TiVo I would switch in a heartbeat. Even at the cost of a cancellation fee. I'm waiting to see how things pan out with the Series 3. The HR20 is a pale imitation of a TiVo. I know it, and lots of other people know it. I think deep down, you know it too. I paid to have my old Philips DSR6000 back rather then use the X&@#@ HR15 DirecTV sent me to replace it when its HD died recently. I repaired it with Instant Cake and it is SOOO much better. Every time I use it I am reminded of this fact.

The HR20 is an intrusion on my TV viewing experience, and I hate that about it. Sure, I can get it to do most things I need it to do for me, but it doesn't do them very well. I miss things I used to take for granted--like the green progress bar for instance. The HR20 has nothing at all like that. And I miss the peanut. Yes, I bought a Harmony remote which helps, but it can't replace things in the HR20 interface that just aren't there.

I have read your posts on DBSTalk, just as I did when you were a regular on the TiVo Community forum. I respect your knowledge and your insights. But it seems like your role on DBSTalk is now one of "apologist" for the HR20 (and HR15 for that matter). You may argue with that, but that's how I see you based on what I've read here.

Officially, you are not part of DirecTV--at least if I am to believe what is posted here. But you have some sort of "connections" there, and that makes a lot of what you post here somewhat suspect in my view. You are "official" (sort of) when you want to be, and unofficial when you have to be.

TiVo isn't part of DirecTV's offering any more, and it's too bad. The HR20 replaced TiVo under Rupert Murdoch's tenure as CEO. Here's a man who by his own admission hated satellite. (Called satellite a "turd bird.") Now he is gone from DirecTV, but his legacy lives on. In severing ties with TiVo, Murdoch wrecked the the best thing DirecTV had going for it.

You must know that a great many people who post here, and many who have and no longer do, have a similar feeling.

I know TiVo isn't coming back to DirecTV. It's over. The fat lady has sung. But it was a sour note. Nothing you say here changes that, no matter how or if you get paid for your otherwise highly praisworthy 24 hour a day moderating of dbstalk.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> I have read your posts on DBSTalk, just as I did when you were a regular on the TiVo Community forum. I respect your knowledge and your insights. But it seems like your role on DBSTalk is now one of "apologist" for the HR20 (and HR15 for that matter). You may argue with that, but that's how I see you based on what I've read here.


Well... sorry you feel that well... but I could say the same thing for a lot of 
people, that appear to be "appologists" for TiVo...

My opinions and my views are what they are... and honestly... I have answered the question many times over the last two years.... even if the tables were different, and I didn't have the contacts that I had... and didn't come over here to DBSTalk... my views would most likely be the same.

Since day one, I have always preferred the content carrier, over the tool to access that content. Been that way when I was on TCF... still will be that way for time to come.



ShiningBengal said:


> Officially, you are not part of DirecTV--at least if I am to believe what is posted here. But you have some sort of "connections" there, and that makes a lot of what you post here somewhat suspect in my view. You are "official" (sort of) when you want to be, and unofficial when you have to be.


Correct... I am not officially part of DirecTV... but again, as I have answered that same accusations before... Unless otherwise specified or CLEARLY implied (like release notes, CE announcements, ect)... my views are my own.



ShiningBengal said:


> TiVo isn't part of DirecTV's offering any more, and it's too bad. The HR20 replaced TiVo under Rupert Murdoch's tenure as CEO. Here's a man who by his own admission hated satellite. (Called satellite a "turd bird.") Now he is gone from DirecTV, but his legacy lives on. In severing ties with TiVo, Murdoch wrecked the the best thing DirecTV had going for it.
> 
> You must know that a great many people who post here, and many who have and no longer do, have a similar feeling.
> 
> I know TiVo isn't coming back to DirecTV. It's over. The fat lady has sung. But it was a sour note. Nothing you say here changes that, no matter how or if you get paid for your otherwise highly praisworthy 24 hour a day moderating of dbstalk.


For the record, I don't get paid at all for the moderation or participation here at DBSTalk. And have more then once opening explained why I do what I do, that I don't work for DirecTV, and my feelings toward it.

I loved TiVo when I had it... pruchased every model of DTiVo (either for myself, or for family and friends)... I considered myself to be a TiVoevangilst for a while at TCF.... But it wasn't "TiVo" that I was an evanglist of... it was the DVR experience...

And flat out, at the end of the day... TiVo is just another DVR
TiVo will go down in history as the company that put DVR's on the map as a household name... no doubt about it.

And yes... I am very much aware that there are people out there, and there are a "lot" (we can argue about the definition of a "lot" another time), that feel the same way you do.

But that doesn't change the fact that there are a "lot" that have a completely different attitude towards the TiVo product... not one of hate, but one of "okay... it did things differently... doesn't make everything else horrible"

You will NEVER have a product that has universal support... Never.
Not even TiVo was liked by everyone... as you know at TCF there are plenty of people that have commented on how cartoonish their GUI is, how they can't stand X,Y,Z thing about TiVo.... does that make TiVo a bad product?

So while you say you would leave for Dish in blink if they have TiVo...
There are the others out there that would leave Dish, simply because they don't like Dish....

For over 2 years I have heard people preach the "end of DirecTV", because they broke ties with TiVo.... well hasn't happened... and in fact has been the near opposite.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

ShiningBengal said:


> I agree that DirecTV is today a brand name, but people who never heard of DirecTV (or don't remember it if they did) know about TiVo. DirecTV is not a pseudonym for satellite, but TiVo IS a pseudonym for DVR's. I rest my case on who has the stronger brand identity..


That is your experience. I don't personally know ANYONE who has a Tivo. I know people with cable DVRs, but not Tivos.

However, in this area, probably 60% of homes have one of the two satellite services. EVERYONE has heard of D*.

People have a tendency to amplify their personal situation to the whole population with no hard evidence. I watch very little commercial TV, yet I have seen all the D* commericals that have been discussed on this forum at least once. I can only remember seeing ONE Tivo commercial. Tivo's star is fading fast.

Tivo is a "pseudonym" (perhaps "synonym" is a better term) for DVRs in many circles. "Xerox" is often used to mean "copy," as well, but in my experience MOST copiers are no longer really Xerox, either.


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## PlanetBill (May 8, 2006)

somebody give me a kleenex.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

PlanetBill said:


> somebody give me a kleenex.


Here you go:
http://www.kleenex.com/CountrySelector.htm?sectionID=&s=

Or did you just mean Facial Tissue...


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## PlanetBill (May 8, 2006)

+1


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

paulman182 said:


> EVERYONE has heard of D*.
> 
> People have a tendency to amplify their personal situation to the whole population with no hard evidence. I watch very little commercial TV, yet I have seen all the D* commericals that have been discussed on this forum at least once. I can only remember seeing ONE Tivo commercial. Tivo's star is fading fast.
> 
> Tivo is a "pseudonym" (perhaps "synonym" is a better term) for DVRs in many circles. "Xerox" is often used to mean "copy," as well, but in my experience MOST copiers are no longer really Xerox, either.


TiVo has NEVER advertised heavily. That is why its name recognition is remarkable. It is remarkable how little DirecTV is known by other than its subscribers, since the name is plastered on dbs dishes 16 million times all over the country.

And pseudonym is the better term. A synomym is a word that can be used interchangeably for another. A TiVo is a DVR, but a DVR is not necessarily a TiVo. A Xerox is a brand of copy machine, but a copy machine is not necessarily a Xerox. Pseudo is Greek for "false." So if you call a DVR a TiVo when it is another brand, then it is a false name. A pseudonym is more like an alias. An author who writes a book under a "pen name" or "nom-de-plume" as the French so foppishly state  , is using a pseudonym. "Sofa" and "couch" or "davenport" are examples of synonyms.

As far as who recgonizes the name, DirecTV: You subscribe to the service. Of course you recognize the name. Ask my parents "who is DirecTV?" for a just as typical response. (Blank stare.)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> TiVo has NEVER advertised heavily. That is why its name recognition is remarkable. It is remarkable how little DirecTV is known by other than its subscribers, since the name is plastered on dbs dishes 16 million times all over the country.
> 
> And pseudonym is the better term. A synomym is a word that can be used interchangeably for another. A TiVo is a DVR, but a DVR is not necessarily a TiVo. A Xerox is a brand of copy machine, but a copy machine is not necessarily a Xerox. Pseudo is Greek for "false." So if you call a DVR a TiVo when it is another brand, then it is a false name. A pseudonym is more like an alias. An author who writes a book under a "pen name" or "nom-de-plume" as the French so foppishly state  , is using a pseudonym. "Sofa" and "couch" or "davenport" are examples of synonyms.
> 
> As far as who recgonizes the name, DirecTV: You subscribe to the service. Of course you recognize the name. Ask my parents "who is DirecTV?" for a just as typical response. (Blank stare.)


Since your location profile isn't updated.... what part of the country, or major city are you living in?
TiVo doesn't advertise much? Seriously? I see TiVo advertised a fair amount, almost as much as DirecTV.

Especially when the T3 was introduced.

I guarantee... you could walk around my office here... and I would put money 100% of the people here know who/what DirecTV is (180+ people).
You could probably take a random sampling of 10,000 people accross the US ... an I would put hard cold cash that 90+% of the people know what DirecTV is... and far less will know what TiVo is...


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

paulman182 said:


> I watch very little commercial TV, yet I have seen all the D* commericals that have been discussed on this forum at least once. I can only remember seeing ONE Tivo commercial. Tivo's star is fading fast.


If you are a D* subscriber you have seen all the D* commercials because when a channel, ie ESPN, cuts to a "local" commercial, the "local" commerical you see is a D* commercial instead of a commercial for JimBobs Used Cars.


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## PlanetBill (May 8, 2006)

Never owned a Tivo, but have caught myself saying "I think I'll Tivo that show"
Goes to show how many brand names become verbs in society. Tivo a show, Xerox a document, Westinghouse a prisoner.


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## PlanetBill (May 8, 2006)

raott said:


> If you are a D* subscriber you have seen all the D* commercials because when a channel, ie ESPN, cuts to a "local" commercial, the "local" commerical you see is a D* commercial instead of a commercial for JimBobs Used Cars.


I see D* commercials on the local channels during primetime. If you haven't seen one somewhere ...


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

PlanetBill said:


> I see D* commercials on the local channels during primetime. I you haven't seen one somewhere ...


Not saying D* doesn't advertise, only saying that a D* subscriber will see many, many more D* commercials than a non-D* subscriber because of the local inserts on national channels will usually be a D* or Hughsnet ad.


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## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

PlanetBill said:


> Never owned a Tivo, but have caught myself saying "I think I'll Tivo that show"
> Goes to show how many brand names become verbs in society. Tivo a show, Xerox a document, Westinghouse a prisoner.


Westinghouse a prisoner?


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

I still like my tivo better than the HR20. The HR20s I have are noisy, the hard drives click loudly, and are not as quiet as the TIVO. I like to TIVO features better, such as suggestions. They should bring it back.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

ShiningBengal said:


> I have read your posts on DBSTalk, just as I did when you were a regular on the TiVo Community forum. I respect your knowledge and your insights. But it seems like your role on DBSTalk is now one of "apologist" for the HR20 (and HR15 for that matter). You may argue with that, but that's how I see you based on what I've read here.


Don't you think that's a little unfair? Earl has been nothing but straightforward about his feelings regarding the DirecTV receivers. He reviews them and gives his opinions. If he likes them, he says so, nothing wrong with that but that doesn't make him an "apologist". If that's the definition of apologist then I guess we are all guilty. I personally happen to like the HR20 in its current form.

I have been working with Earl for a long time now behind the scenes and will personally vouch for his character any day of the week. He's here to help YOU, the user and has no hidden agenda. His strong relationship with DirecTV is a product of his hard work and that is a good thing for everyone who visits this site.

As far as I'm concerned, those who have left this site because of Earl's supposed "apologist" attitude, it's their loss.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

ShiningBengal,

You are waging a one man battle right now. You have an obvious love for TiVo, but I think it is unfair to expect folks with an R15 or an HR20 to fall in line with you. You speak of Earl as an "apologist" in the context of your dislike of the R15/HR20 interface. Your comments serve no purpose other than to inflame. Earl, like many of us here @ DBSTalk.com, have become huge enthusiasts, particularly for the HR20-700. If being an enthusiast makes me an "apologist," then so be it. I for one, very much appreciate what the HR20 has become. TiVo is great, but for me the HR20 is better.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> Well let's be up front here. With 6.1/6.2 MRV code was in the OS. Someone (Tivo or D*) has it disabled for whatever reasons. It was an easy 2 byte change to turn MRV on. Something our family has learned to love with SD Tivos.
> 
> There was also an early version of Media Share available on these machines yet not enabled by D*.
> 
> Features available on SA versions yet for some reason not readily available on DTivos. Again the why's and whos may never be known, but they were....and still are... there.


Well to be even more fair some of those features aren't even available on Tivo's own S3 DVR. SOme try to blame CableLabs and others say it's Tivo dragging their feet. Who knows I guess the truth with the S3 and many of the DTV DVRs lies somewhere in between.


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## PlanetBill (May 8, 2006)

desslock said:


> Westinghouse a prisoner?


When Edison and Westinghouse were battling over AC or DC power for the electric chair.


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## PlanetBill (May 8, 2006)

raott said:


> Not saying D* doesn't advertise, only saying that a D* subscriber will see many, many more D* commercials than a non-D* subscriber because of the local inserts on national channels will usually be a D* or Hughsnet ad.


agreed


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

brott said:


> ShiningBengal,
> 
> You are waging a one man battle right now. You have an obvious love for TiVo, but I think it is unfair to expect folks with an R15 or an HR20 to fall in line with you. You speak of Earl as an "apologist" in the context of your dislike of the R15/HR20 interface. Your comments serve no purpose other than to inflame. Earl, like many of us here @ DBSTalk.com, have become huge enthusiasts, particularly for the HR20-700. If being an enthusiast makes me an "apologist," then so be it. I for one, very much appreciate what the HR20 has become. TiVo is great, but for me the HR20 is better.


I wasn't aware that I was waging a battle. I thought I was expressing an opinion. Are only opinions that laud praises on the the HR15 and HR20 welcome here? My love for TiVo would have evaporated in a heartbeat if its replacement stole my heart.

I grant you I may be in the minority, but there are many posts by others on this forum who hold similar opinions. Earl is a fine fellow, and very bright. I respect his opinions. But he was an enthusiast for the HR20 the instant he opened the box. I read his reviews. But that, of course, was before the problems with the HR20 began coming in. You note with interest the words in your post, "what the HR20 has become." By the way, if you read the post in which I used the term "apologist" you will find that I clearly stated this was my own observation. I have also complimented him both here and at TCF even though I have disagreed with some of the things he has posted.

The HR20 may well be a better product today because of some of its naysayers who have posted here and elsewhere.

DirecTV turned the HR10 into a boat anchor in just a little over 2 years. It gave is a product that today is better than it was when it was first introduced, but it still has a long way to go. Is squelching criticism going to improve a flawed product?

I have pointed out probems with TiVo on the TiVo Community forum. It isn't perfect. Far from it. I would be happy to enumerate them here, but the HR10 is history so it is pointless.

But the HR20, in my own personal opinion, is a step backward from what was a very good beginning for DirecTV's HD-DVR offering. DirecTV needs to hear this from its customers if it is going to improve its products, and I have been a DirecTV subscriber continuously for around 8 years now. My posts have been specific about what I find lacking in the HR20. I haven't said "it is a piece of XXXX." It isn't. But it should be so much better than it is. And it is hard for me to believe that some of its most flagrant shortcomings could be fixed over night if DirecTV wanted to do so. Perhaps that is what is most annoying about the problems I see.

The HR20 doesn't have to be a TiVo to be good. My problem with the HR20 is that there are too many people saying how wonderful it is, when it clearly isn't there yet. Maybe someday, but not today.

If that is controversial to say here, then in all due respect, you don't have a forum worthy of that name. A forum is a marketplace of opinions. Thats how forum is translated from the Latin.

My handle is on every one of my posts. If people find my opinions offensive, I think they can either skip them, or blank out my posts so they can't see them.

I have not been intemperate or disrespectful to Earl or anyone else on dbstalk. It seems to me that the role of "moderator" is to keep things on a civil level. People should be moderate in their statements, and it is entirely correct that anyone or who is intemperate in their statements be shown the door.

But if the role of moderator becomes a policeman to stifle divergent opinion, he becomes a censor.

Personally, I love reading divergent opinion. Sometimes those opinions influence me in a way that I change, or moderate my views. That's whats great about forums, and what is great about dbstalk. I hope it stays that way.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

ShiningBengal said:


> I wasn't aware that I was waging a battle. I thought I was expressing an opinion. Are only opinions that laud praises on the the HR15 and HR20 welcome here? My love for TiVo would have evaporated in a heartbeat if its replacement stole my heart.


Ding! Ding! Ding!....Give that man a prize.

I don't claim to understand it but the D*Fenders do see any criticisms of, or complaints against the R15/HR20 as "bashing", "negativism" or just general attacks against their beloved. Labels I've learned to live with, but none the less, a battle in their eyes.

I have two HR20's and they are not half bad. I've had them for about 4 weeks. But they are lacking in many areas that I grew accustom to with the SD and HD Tivos. So yes, I complain about what is not working or is lacking. The only purpose that praising what does work serves is so the D*Fenders feel happy about themselves and their home entertainment system decisions. Highlighting problems and troubles with the R15/HR20 needs to continue so that hopefully those problems/troubles can be fixed.

It seems that every time a few threads such as this get posts from members that haven't yet joined the R15/HR20 fan club you see another one of those "Top 10 reasons why I :heart: my R15/HR20" threads.

What I find very interesting is that the latest version of that thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92467) has only 56 posts. 984 views but only 56 posts. Performing a little grade school math that means that only 5.7% of the members that have read that thread agree with the subject (The "My HR20 Works Perfectly And I Have Nothing To Complain About" Thread) and bothered to post a reply. Humm!!!! I'll leave any statistical analysis to each of you out there. But I find this interesting.

I do believe it's also important to keep in mind this thread references a member that was dropping the R15 and going back to Tivo. The R15 seems it has quite a bit more problems than the HR20 does and also seems it hasn't gotten near the number of enhancements the HR20 has. The R15 is still D*'s only SD DVR.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

SB,

Please check out the HR20 Wish List .. nearly two dozen items have been checked off since last October. You can find a link in my signature. This list at this point in time is on hiatus but should be back to full force in a couple of weeks.

True, you noted that your observations on Earl were global - however, the fact that it was mentioned at all seems out of context with the rest of your comments. It's as if it were thrown in to bolster your own position by attempting to lessen Earl's position.

That being said, I'll stop commenting now as this is not the right forum for this topic.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

ShiningBengal,

Opinions of equipment, providers, and technology are all very welcome. You might get some differing opinions of course and the occasional raspberry for your opinions, but you seem to handle them very well. (BTW, solid technical facts about any of the above topics are also welcome.  )

When people start talking opinion about people they clearly run the risk of consequences for their actions. Raspberries are typically just the beginning.  

I tend to agree the R15 is not a huge step backward from the Tivo line, but I have to take care--I don't own one nor intend to get another SD receiver. I mean whats the point? 

As for the HR20, my statements have evolved over the past 9 months as the HR20 has evolved. I still miss DLB very much. But I do like that I get many features without having to hack them into the receiver. I like that the HR20 code base has a future. I'm just not seeing much coming out of Tivo lately. Sure the S3 can support VOD, but not Switched video. It will be dead in the water even sooner then the HR10 will be. (Ok, that is an exaggeration, they both will be relegated to OTA and SD only at about the same time in some markets.)

But pick on Earl? Give me a brake!  (Sorry, Earl, couldn't resist.) Yes we ALL have our foibles, idiosyncracies, likes/dislikes, etc. And Earl, with 8Million posts per year and a full-time job and a very wonderful family, is amazing both in the breadth of his knowledge and ability to share. (In the time I've typed this post, he's already posted another 10, I'm sure.)

Lastly, Tivo has blown their position, IMHO. They had so many crown jewels, their rise and fall will likely become a huge case study in B-school. But since it's considered bad form to talk about the dying on their death bed, we'll leave them alone for the moment. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> What I find very interesting is that the latest version of that thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92467) has only 56 posts. 984 views but only 56 posts. Performing a little grade school math that means that only 5.7% of the members that have read that thread agree with the subject (The "My HR20 Works Perfectly And I Have Nothing To Complain About" Thread) and bothered to post a reply. Humm!!!! I'll leave any statistical analysis to each of you out there. But I find this interesting.


Are you serious?

Posts / Views ... to come up with 5.7%
Views count will also include those that read the threads that are not even members of the forum, and is not unique per user... If you read a thread 10 times... it will count as being viewed 10 times.
So in that equation you are including people that can't even post in the thread (guest views), and those that have logged into the thread multiple time to see for new posts and replies.

Heck... I haven't even posted in that thread, and probably won't... as it is just not necessary....

So let's do the same analysis on another thread?:
"Post your shows that the HR20 started recording late. "
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92426

342 views / 25 posts.
Must be an even lower percentage of people having that problem.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Seriously now- :backtotop

If you have an issue about me, or the way I do things...
My PM box is always open.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Posts / Views ... to come up with 5.7%
> Views count will also include those that read the threads that are not even members of the forum, and is not unique per user... If you read a thread 10 times... it will count as being viewed 10 times.
> ...


It was just an observation. I've seen posts that a "great majority" of HR20 users are happy with their DVRand don't have any problems while those that complain are just trouble makers and complainers and bashers and trolls.

Not sure about your point on the late recording thread. My purpose on that thread was to see who was having problems with which shows on which channels. You know, maybe trying to identify a pattern. If I wanted to know how big a problem it was, DUH, I'd have created yet another poll.

Oh, and FYI, 342 views/25 posts = 7.3%. Which, last time I checked was larger than 5.7% 

Granted I've created many of those posts....so even that number isn't really representative.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

It seems to me that the closest thing we have here would be the report cards for the HR20. But what is all this HR20 talk doing in an R15 thread within an R15 forum?

Cheers,
Tom


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

This thread got "hijacked" by a discussion on the DTV DVR vs. Tivo relative merits  

That seems to be happening often and often by the same people


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Regardless of the merits (or absence thereof) of either the DirecTivo or the DirecTV Plus DVR, the bottom line at this point in time is that DirecTV has made a business decision to move away from Tivo. That isn't going to change, and repeated postings wishing it would really are not going to accomplish anything.

I would suggest the more productive effort would be to contribute to the general "how can we make the R15 or HR20 better" process. Simply saying "Go back to Tivo" isn't a productive suggestion. "Adding DLB" could be, except that it has already been said so many times one more isn't going to make a difference.

However I fully agree with the argument that a poster should be free to express his or her opinion.

Carl


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

But let's keep in mind here the OP started the thread saying he/she was sick of the R15...and going back to Tivo. The thread turning into a R15 vs Tivo discussion does seem natural as always happens. So really, it isn't that far off from the original topic aside from the few side bars.


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## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

carl6 said:


> Regardless of the merits (or absence thereof) of either the DirecTivo or the DirecTV Plus DVR, the bottom line at this point in time is that DirecTV has made a business decision to move away from Tivo. That isn't going to change, and repeated postings wishing it would really are not going to accomplish anything.
> 
> I would suggest the more productive effort would be to contribute to the general "how can we make the R15 or HR20 better" process. Simply saying "Go back to Tivo" isn't a productive suggestion. "Adding DLB" could be, except that it has already been said so many times one more isn't going to make a difference.
> 
> ...


Carl,

You are correct that a more productive use would be to contribute to the betterment of the R15.

Since I originally began this thread announcing my intention to defect back to TiVo and ditch the R15, I have changed directions. It is tru that I do not trust my R15 and therefore cannot depend on it. So I have put my Tivo unit back in the living room as my primary. But instead of ditching the R15, i am moving it to the bedroom where it can remain online in a less mission-critical role. This will also allow me now to participate in the CE process without risking my primary unit.

In my opinion, the R15 brings a lot of great features to the table. The problems with Series Link "First Runs" and the missing of recordings are the only problems I cannot live with in a primary unit. In time, I hope the R15 code updates will resolve this. Until then, I'll be joining the ranks of the users here who will take steps to help that occur (with CE reviews), while the mature code TiVo does the heavy lifting.

I'm not saying TiVo is better than DVR+, just different. Both have features the other does not. Right now, the Tivo is the only one I have that faithfully performs its core function. In time, that may change and maybe the R15 will be "promoted" back to the living room.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

desslock, AKA Robert, Good on ya! That is being a great member of the community in the midst of a trying time for you. That is very admirable. 
And welcome to the CE community too. :welcome_s

Cheers and thanks,
Tom


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> desslock, AKA Robert, Good on ya! That is being a great member of the community in the midst of a trying time for you. That is very admirable.
> And welcome to the CE community too. :welcome_s
> 
> Cheers and thanks,
> Tom


I second Tom's comments. Hopefully we can collectively help make both the R15 and the HR20 great DVRs. While they may never do everything exactly the same as a Tivo did, as you note they do bring much to the table.

I think there are only a few really critical issues that can make the transition from Tivo to R15 or HR20 a whole lot smoother. 1. Making autorecords using search work properly. This relies on having channels I get work properly, which is still in process. This is going to happen, it's only a question of when. 2. Making the single live buffer always work properly, and maybe (standby to be pounced upon)... incorporate dual live buffers. I fully expect the SLB to work properly. DLB is an unknown.

With those improvements, I think we would see very few hard complaints. If you look over the CE threads here, you will see those issues being noted repeatedly. You are not alone in your desires for these improvements.

Carl


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

carl6 said:


> I think there are only a few really critical issues that can make the transition from Tivo to R15 or HR20 a whole lot smoother. 1. Making autorecords using search work properly. This relies on having channels I get work properly, which is still in process. This is going to happen, it's only a question of when. 2. Making the single live buffer always work properly, and maybe (standby to be pounced upon)... incorporate dual live buffers. I fully expect the SLB to work properly. DLB is an unknown.
> 
> With those improvements, I think we would see very few hard complaints. If you look over the CE threads here, you will see those issues being noted repeatedly. You are not alone in your desires for these improvements.
> 
> Carl


Carl - to your list I would add removing the 50/100 limits, which in my mind is a huge handicap for the R15, adding skip-to-tick (why in the world put tick marks in only to have them be useless) and get rid of the two push guide (who was the brilliant one at D* that thought pushing the guide button twice was a good idea???).

Finally, it has to be completely stable and the features that are there have to work, mine is much improved, but I still have had shows not record for no reason, had all SLs quit working for no reason, Caller ID is still very inconsistant.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

raott said:


> Carl - to your list I would add removing the 50/100 limits, which in my mind is a huge handicap for the R15, adding skip-to-tick (why in the world put tick marks in only to have them be useless) and get rid of the two push guide (who was the brilliant one at D* that thought pushing the guide button twice was a good idea???).
> 
> Finally, it has to be completely stable and the features that are there have to work, mine is much improved, but I still have had shows not record for no reason, had all SLs quit working for no reason, Caller ID is still very inconsistant.


Good comments. While I personally would never even come close to 50/100, I can appreciate the frustration for those that do. The one push guide is supposed to be in the latest CE, so it should be along sometime soon.

My R15 has been stable, which is why I didn't list that, but I agree it is an essential part of basic operation. Caller ID on the other hand is a "nice to have" that really has nothing to do with the unit performing as a DVR. I have had consistent problems with caller ID on both my R15 and my HR20's.

Carl


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

raott said:


> ... get rid of the two push guide (who was the brilliant one at D* that thought pushing the guide button twice was a good idea???).


Not sure about how this works with the R15, since I sent mine back and replaced it with a self-refurbished 6+ year old Philips DSR6000. However, at least in the most current software on my HR20-100, you have the choice in "setup" on how you want the guide to default. You can have it so the second button push brings up a list of specialized guides (local, HD, etc.) The first push now brings up the favorites list of channels.

Maybe this was pointed out in another thread, but if so, I didn't see it.


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## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

raott said:


> Carl - to your list I would add removing the 50/100 limits, which in my mind is a huge handicap for the R15, adding skip-to-tick (why in the world put tick marks in only to have them be useless) and get rid of the two push guide (who was the brilliant one at D* that thought pushing the guide button twice was a good idea???).
> 
> Finally, it has to be completely stable and the features that are there have to work, mine is much improved, but I still have had shows not record for no reason, had all SLs quit working for no reason, Caller ID is still very inconsistant.


Missing shows and the SLs that quit are the only two Hard complaints I have. My caller ID has always worked correctly, albeit slowly, from day one. I can live with evertything else until it is eventually resolved.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

ShiningBengal said:


> Not sure about how this works with the R15, since I sent mine back and replaced it with a self-refurbished 6+ year old Philips DSR6000. However, at least in the most current software on my HR20-100, you have the choice in "setup" on how you want the guide to default. You can have it so the second button push brings up a list of specialized guides (local, HD, etc.) The first push now brings up the favorites list of channels.
> 
> Maybe this was pointed out in another thread, but if so, I didn't see it.


Unless something has changed recently - that option has not been released to the R15 (hasn't even made it to CE AFAIK).


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

desslock said:


> Missing shows and the SLs that quit are the only two Hard complaints I have. My caller ID has always worked correctly, albeit slowly, from day one. I can live with everything else until it is eventually resolved.


This is precisely why people want TIVO, and those who have had Directivo don't want to give it up.

Also, the quoted post says it all, the R15 doesn't have the most important feature people want--a reliable recording feature.

Directv--Bring back TIVO and get rid of the R15, which doesn't even rise to the status of a poor imitation.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Missing shows and playback lock-ups are the serious problems I have with the R15. 

Trick play instability and inability to make good use of autorecord (due to lack of channels I get functionality) are annoying problems, but I can live with them.

Then there are a lot of features I'd like added, but those are just added bonuses. 



The real problem with the R15 is that we are discussing whether it is stable enough to be suitble. If it were really stable enough to be suitable, the discussion would be limited to things like whether it is better to have a single 90 minute buffer or dual 30 minute buffers.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Upstream said:


> Missing shows and playback lock-ups are the serious problems I have with the R15.
> 
> Trick play instability and inability to make good use of autorecord (due to lack of channels I get functionality) are annoying problems, but I can live with them.
> 
> ...


I agree, the Directivo is much older technology, yet it works so much better. You are absolutely right. With a flagship carrier like Directv, no one should have to be talking about whether the R15 is suitable for its intended purpose.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

jal said:


> This is precisely why people want TIVO, and those who have had Directivo don't want to give it up.
> 
> Also, the quoted post says it all, the R15 doesn't have the most important feature people want--a reliable recording feature.
> 
> Directv--Bring back TIVO and get rid of the R15, which doesn't even rise to the status of a poor imitation.


Well I guess by your posts we know where you stand and I would think by DirecTVs and NDS's actions I would believe you would know where they stand.I have never witnessed before two companies such as these having their software
departments running in high gear to come out with fixes for the HR20 and the R15.
So I would think it is apparent what they plan to do.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Well, that was with News Corp owning Directv. With Liberty in the fold, maybe things will change.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

jal said:


> Well, that was with News Corp owning Directv. With Liberty in the fold, maybe things will change.


That's what Tivo's CEO is hopeful for too!.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> Well I guess by your posts we know where you stand and I would think by DirecTVs and NDS's actions I would believe you would know where they stand.I have never witnessed before two companies such as these having their software
> departments running in high gear to come out with fixes for the HR20 and the R15.
> So I would think it is apparent what they plan to do.


That argument never has and never will hold weight with me because of the condition the R15 was released in in the first place.

I believe you've only had one a few months, you should have owned one 18 months ago and you wouldn't be singing their praises right now. The R15 is head and shoulders above what it was back then, but that is no excuse for the way it was released.

I also would dispute the "high gear" on which those working on the R15 are working. The HR20 has been out a much shorter time but has features we are still waiting for on the R15. If anyone is in "high gear" it is the HR20 team.

Earl tells us there are as many resources on the R15, either we are in for a huge update soon with lots of new features or the R15 is much more complicated than the HR20 or they simply are not as competent.


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## desslock (Jun 19, 2007)

jal said:


> This is precisely why people want TIVO, and those who have had Directivo don't want to give it up.
> 
> Also, the quoted post says it all, the R15 doesn't have the most important feature people want--a reliable recording feature.
> 
> Directv--Bring back TIVO and get rid of the R15, which doesn't even rise to the status of a poor imitation.


Speaking of the Missed shows and SL malfunctions, I thought I would share the results of some investigation I have done since I brought my TiVo back on line.

There has been some discussion of whether the R15's missed recordings, inability to determine a First Run vs. a Repeat and the Series Link malfunctions may be a result of bad guide data coming from DirecTV. I have set my R15 and my TiVo with exactly the same Series Links/Season Passes. Other than the box itself, the user load is the same.

This will probably come as no surprise, but the TiVo correctly identifies the First runs, targets them for recording, and hasn't missed one yet. The R15 is about 60% correct in targetting episodes for recording. The displays sontinue to state "2 Total/0 First Run" even when it has targetted a first run for recording.

There are still several Series Links that refuse to acknowledge the existance of any episodes in the guide at all, let alone First vs. Repeats.

I meant to add that with the two boxes receiving the same guide data, I do not believe the data feed is the root cause of the missed/lost/unidentified recordings.

Another oddity I found... I had 2 shows set to record at 9:00 PM last night (on both boxes). The TiVo tripped both tuners, one on each show and went on it's merry way. The R15 reported in the To Do list that one 9:00 show would not be recorded because it was in conflict with the other 9:00 show that had a higher priority. There were only 2 shows set to record. Why would the R15 skip one entirely in favor of the other? It's supposed to be a dual tuner device.

Anyone else seen this?


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> ShiningBengal,
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


I hope my characterization of some of Earl's posts as "apologies" doesn't descend into the realm of personal attack. Sometimes, apologies are justified and welcome, after all. What I meant by my remark is that a shortcoming in a product is a shortcoming, regardless of what merit it may otherwise have. That's all.

If, for instance, If I were to say that the HR20 is "buggy" examples of an apologetic response would be, "Yes, but it used to be much buggier" or, "Yes, but it has some wonderful features" rather than "Yes, DirecTV has its work cut out for it," which is obviously not an apology.

There is no question of the value of Earl's contribution to this forum. I would go so far as to say it is "invaluable"--a compliment, wouldn't you agree? I agreed with him much more than I disagreed in his former role as contributor/moderator of TCF. I respect him, his depth of knowlege, and his continuing work on this forum. I have no problem with Earl, and hope he has no problem with me.

My problems are with the HR20 and what it is rather than what it may be some day. I believe that the HR20 was rushed to market because of bad planning by DirecTV.

DirecTV understands that HiDef is the future of DirecTV and that to effectively deploy HiDef they had to move away from MPEG2 to a more efficient compression algorithm. They had their MPEG4 birds on schedule, but their consumer hardware lagged behind, probably because they didn't devote the necessary resources to its development.

They were boxed in, because TiVo couldn't receive and record MPEG4 and what good is an MPEG4 broadcast facility in the sky without capable receivers on the ground. What consumers got as a result was a very buggy product which looked bad in comparison with the existing comparatively reliable MPEG2 TiVo platform.

I have had 2 HR20-100's in my home, and aside from functionality issues, which in and of themselves are frustrating, they have stability problems--both of them--out of the box. The remotes which are supposed to be able to send RF communication to the receivers can not. The one I have been able to get to work at all responds so slowly to commands that it is unuseable. The other one doesn't work at all.

Both of these machines have locked up for no apparant reason on several occasions.

The IR signals the remotes send require that they be aimed directly at the IR receiver on the unit it controls, even in dim light. The replacement IR remote I purchased for my HT HR20, a Harmony 880, can be aimed at a gray painted ceiling and still have enough bounce left to effectively control all of my components.

None of the Denon codes provided by DirecTV for their remote work at all with my AVR2807. This receiver is 1-1/2 years old, and is a fairly common AVR for HT installs. The TiVo remote I used with my HR10 controlled it just fine.

There are also issues that others have reported, so no need to go into them here.

The HR20 is not junk. It was released prematurely. It works, but it is not reliable, and the lack of DLB represents a serious loss of functionality for folks who have been used to it for years, and consider it part of the DVR experience.

TiVo was never perfect, but at least in my experience, it has been far more reliable and stable than the R15 and the HR20. (I sent back my 3rd defective R15 in 2 months and self-refurbed my 6-year old Philips DSR6000)

These issues are real, and there is nothing to be gained by pretending they are not. DirecTV needs to be reminded of this, and often and loudly, or we will be stuck with 2nd rate hardware for a first-rate satellite service for a long time to come.

Comcast will have TiVo software in a soon-to-be released DVR. If it weren't for their bad reputation for service and high fees, I would have waited to see how well it works before signing on to 2 more years with DirecTV.

It will be interesting to see how the HR20 compares with Comcasts offering.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Wow... On the Circuit City Website, they are selling brand-new (old stock) in the box, Samsung Directivos for $88. So, for those of you sick and tired of the R15, this is a really great place to get a new TIVO! Happy shopping!


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## jhollan2 (Aug 31, 2006)

They're $77.96 now! I almost bought 2 for no reason other than I hate the R-15... but one will suffice for now.

I cant wait to swap them!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

According to other posts on other forums...

Even though the site says they are "available"... they are out of stock/backordered.

And considering they stopped manufacturing that particular model over 2 years ago...

Let us know if that is not correct, and you do in fact get one from Circuit City


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## jhollan2 (Aug 31, 2006)

I have a fedex tracking number so I'm guessing they will actually send it. I'll let you know when (if) it arrives.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

My guess is that these boxes were in Rapid Satellite's stock when they shut down. Since Rapid Satellite was owned by Circuit City, Rapid's inventory is now being liquidated. So, when you get the box, let us know what the manufacturing date is. Thanks.


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## jhollan2 (Aug 31, 2006)

Any clue what other old treasures they might be liquidating?


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Just a wild guess on my part. In January 2007, however, I purcahsed an R10 Directivo at Circuit City, new in the box. A sticker with a barcode on it had the date of 11/06 for whatever that indicates. There were a stack of R10s right on the shelf.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

The Directivo is gone from the website. Did anyone who ordered it actually get one?


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> ShiningBengal,
> 
> Opinions of equipment, providers, and technology are all very welcome. You might get some differing opinions of course and the occasional raspberry for your opinions, but you seem to handle them very well. (BTW, solid technical facts about any of the above topics are also welcome.  )
> 
> ...


Does the recent Directv announcement of updated software for the SD Directivos change your mind? You still planning a wake for Tivo? Might want to reconsider, especially if the Tivo/cable connection takes off (using Tivo software on cable DVRs).

As it stands, Tivo may have made some mistakes, but I'd hardly dig their grave yet. They may not be as healthy as they were in 2001, but it ain't over yet.

As for picking on Earl, I'd say the poster was just stating his opinion based on observation, not picking on or attacking anyone. Earl himself says he favors Directv and its recent business decisions, so why is pointing that out picking on him? Earl makes no pretense about being less-than-neutral when it comes to Directv, so it seems fair game to point that out when he is the most well-known moderator on DBSTalk - and the only one, it seems, with a direct connection to Directv, official or not.

In fact, the OP didn't make anything close to a personal attack. He even praised Earl profusely.

In this case, there might just be a little overreaction/oversensitivity. From what I have read here, Earl does this because he loves doing it, so in that sense, it's not work, it's fun. Whatever his unselfish motives, he also has selfish ones...he likes having a good time (who doesn't), else he wouldn't bother with DBSTalk (or the forums before it). It's the same as when someone volunteers their time for a worthy cause. Sure, they help others, but deep down inside, it's just as good if not even better for them. It's just human nature. So enough back-slapping already. No one on DBSTalk would be here, be part of the CE process, etc., if it wasn't a good time and way better than their day jobs. I'd bet that if the HR20 and R15 mysteriously started behaving as advertised today, many of the people who haunt this forum would be depressed by losing their "cause." Has anyone put any metrics on the DBSTalk membership/thread count since the release of the HR20/R15? No doubt a major spike in membership/postings. Why? Because of the problems those boxes have caused, not because they were perfect and even close.

I know this is off-topic, but so is most of this thread.

As for the topic, I have two R10s running right now (along with an HR20 and an H20), and two stashed in my closet (got them on ebay for $70 each a year ago). With the latest announcement from Directv, I am glad I do for SD recording. If I can help it, I will never allow an R-15 to cross the threshold at my house, at risk of divorce (my wife has seen the HR-20 in action, so she has no desire to ruin her 6-year DVR experience with Tivo, one that hasn't had a hiccup apart from replacing a dead HD).


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## jhollan2 (Aug 31, 2006)

I recieved my directivo from circuit city yesterday. It has a manufacture date of 10/04. Its working well, despite the fact that it called in and downloaded for more than 2 hours! I'm very happy!


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