# Breaking News: Senate passes another DTV Delay Act, Goes to House Floor



## James Long

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ar..._Second_Bill_Changing_DTV_Transition_Date.php

*Senate Passes Second Bill Changing DTV Transition Date*
Bill expected to be sent to the House for consideration under regular rules
John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 1/29/2009 5:26:03 PM MT

An aide to Senator Jay Rockefeller confirms that the Senate has once again passed a bill changing the DTV transition date from Feb. 17 to June 12.

The bill, which again passed by unanimous consent--no Senator objected--contains a couple of fixes made in the House to language pertaining to budget rules and first responder communications.

The bill is expected to be sent to the House for consideration under regular rules. If the House Rules Committee gets the bill Tuesday, the first day it could, it could get to the House floor by Wednesday, Feb. 4, where a simple majority will be sufficient to pass it.
...

It doesn't appear to be any different in description than S.328.
"--Permits Broadcasters to Continue with Transition Efforts - The bill reaffirms existing law to permit over-the-air broadcast television stations to voluntarily switch from analog to digital service before June 12, 2009. "

Full text should be available in the morning.


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## Mark Holtz

What the :ramblinon!!!!!

Is this issue a Zombie or a Vampire? Haven't we :beatdeadhorse: enough on this issue?


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## LCDSpazz

So next week the House will just need a simple majority to pass this. We'll be LESS THAN 2 weeks away from the old deadline at that point. So we'll have literally hundreds of random stations shutting down at all sorts of different times between now and mid-June. Wow, THAT won't confuse anyone. :nono2:


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## James Long

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/01/dtv_date_switch_facilitated_by.php
January 29, 2009 5:06 PM
DTV Date Switch Facilitated by Senate
By Ira Teinowitz

The prospects for a delay of the switch to all-digital broadcast TV signals increased as the Senate approved a revised piece of legislation that would permit pushing back the Feb. 17 DTV deadline.

With no debate, the U.S. Senate [strike]unanimously[/strike] passed [by unanimous consent] the bill in anticipation of a House of Representatives vote next Tuesday to delay the transition to June 12.

...

The bid to delay the national changeover comes as a number of the nation's 1,800 stations are quietly making the switch to digital. The Federal Communications Commission said tonight that 133 TV stations have already switched to digital-only signals, with another 67 set to switch before Feb. 17 and 93 to switch at midnight Feb. 17, whatever happens with the delay legislation.​Unanimous consent corrected in quote. (Broadcasting & Cable got it right. An administration quote in the article got it wrong. Doesn't the former Senator from Illinois understand "unanimous consent"?)

BTW: In a previous article (about the first senate bill) -
http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/01/stations_dont_want_to_wait.php
Nine out of 10 station managers interviewed by TelevisionWeek said they oppose the delay,​


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## neljtorres

Again with this bill! This is like a vampire! I don't know what they want to do with this crap because a lot of station managers want to turn off the analog signal. And with if they pass the crappy bill and 95% of the stations owners decided to turn off the analog signal on feb 18! This is a waist of time and money watch they will be still people complainig on June!


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## dodge boy

Eh, Who cares.... Not a big problem for anyone on this forum... Is anyone going to die or even loose sleep if your analog chanel stays lit longer? Like I've said before all your locals should be digitial aswell by now.....


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## samhevener

James Long said:


> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ar..._Second_Bill_Changing_DTV_Transition_Date.php
> 
> *Senate Passes Second Bill Changing DTV Transition Date*
> Bill expected to be sent to the House for consideration under regular rules
> John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 1/29/2009 5:26:03 PM MT
> 
> An aide to Senator Jay Rockefeller confirms that the Senate has once again passed a bill changing the DTV transition date from Feb. 17 to June 12.
> 
> The bill, which again passed by unanimous consent--no Senator objected--contains a couple of fixes made in the House to language pertaining to budget rules and first responder communications.
> 
> The bill is expected to be sent to the House for consideration under regular rules. If the House Rules Committee gets the bill Tuesday, the first day it could, it could get to the House floor by Wednesday, Feb. 4, where a simple majority will be sufficient to pass it.
> ...
> 
> It doesn't appear to be any different in description than S.328.
> "--Permits Broadcasters to Continue with Transition Efforts - The bill reaffirms existing law to permit over-the-air broadcast television stations to voluntarily switch from analog to digital service before June 12, 2009. "
> 
> Full text should be available in the morning.


 I really want to see what the new bill says about "first responder" communications.
Another point, yesterday's Cleveland Plain Dealer said Channels 3 and 25 will stay analog until June 12 no matter what. I know a retired engineer from channel 3 and he told me the station is having all types of tech problems with their new frequency digital transmitter. Chan 3 is now broadcasting digital on chan 2 and had expected to change to another channel in the teens by now.


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## dodge boy

samhevener said:


> I really want to see what the new bill says about "first responder" communications.
> Another point, yesterday's Cleveland Plain Dealer said Channels 3 and 25 will stay analog until June 12 no matter what. I know a retired engineer from channel 3 and he told me the station is having all types of tech problems with their new frequency digital transmitter. Chan 3 is now broadcasting digital on chan 2 and had expected to change to another channel in the teens by now.


 That may explain why I can't pick them up here in Niles. I get 5, 8, & 43 on my AM21 but no 3, 25, or 19... (I never got 19 CBS when it was analog).


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## smiddy

It just goes to show that if you fail once, you can send it through again, with a couple of tweaks, to get it to pass. This is such a waste of resources, since America has had several years to prepare for this...and less than 1% of the people are not ready... :nono:


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## kwajr

didnt this all start 10 yrs ago may be wrong but either way they have had enough time. and we know it want effect us but we are all sick of the commercials and all at this point so just do it


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## dodge boy

kwajr said:


> didnt this all start 10 yrs ago may be wrong but either way they have had enough time. and we know it want effect us but we are all sick of the commercials and all at this point so just do it


Commercials, what commercials, I mean since I have 4 DVRS I never watch commercials... Maybe you should upgrade your receivers then you won't have to watch those things.... I mean DVRS have been around for 10+ years you mean you haven't got atleast one yet?


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## ATARI

James Long said:


> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ar..._Second_Bill_Changing_DTV_Transition_Date.php
> 
> *Senate Passes Second Bill Changing DTV Transition Date*


Glad to see the suits in Washington are taking the time to tackle the hard issues. :nono2:


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## bobukcat

smiddy said:


> It just goes to show that if you fail once, you can send it through again, with a couple of tweaks, to get it to pass. This is such a waste of resources, since America has had several years to prepare for this...and less than 1% of the people are not ready... :nono:


I really just think there are more important things our government should be focusing time and resources on right now.


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## Stuart Sweet

Folks, let's not get into a discussion of what the government should and should not do. We've issued enough infractions the last few days. Let's keep it to the topic of the DTV transition.


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## txtommy

dodge boy said:


> Commercials, what commercials, I mean since I have 4 DVRS I never watch commercials... Maybe you should upgrade your receivers then you won't have to watch those things.... I mean DVRS have been around for 10+ years you mean you haven't got atleast one yet?


Unless you have an analog DVR you needn't worry about the conversion. :grin:


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## txtommy

So is it 20 million or 6.5 million household not ready? Does anyone really know? Both quotes are from the same article.



> Efforts to move the transition date to June 12 from February 17 are fueled by worries an estimated 20 million mostly poor, elderly and rural households are not technically ready for the congressionally mandated switch.





> About 6.5 million households are not ready for the transition, according to the latest data from Nielsen Ratings.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090130/pl_nm/us_dtv_congress_2


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## tcusta00

Grrrrr...


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## HoTat2

[Mod edit: redacted quote of deleted post]

Well I guess that's easy enough to say, and believe me I'm totally against the DTV delay as well. But while remaining politcally neutral on the issue I have to admit that if I were in government and faced with daunting reports like this from the FCC as linked in the CGC Communicator (issue #871):

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-287163A1.doc

I honestly can't say I wouldn't have voted for the delay myself if I were in their shoes up on capitol hill.


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## stewp97

txtommy said:


> So is it 20 million or 6.5 million household not ready? Does anyone really know? Both quotes are from the same article.


Either way, it doesn't really matter. That number will be the same no matter when the government decides to switch. It will only be after the people loose there signal that they will do anything about it. What a waste of time.


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## Go Beavs

The only way some of the 1% of people not ready will actually go take care of THEMSELVES is for their TV to turn to static. Then they'll have to get off their a** and do something about it.


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## davring

stewp97 said:


> Either way, it doesn't really matter. That number will be the same no matter when the government decides to switch. It will only be after the people loose there signal that they will do anything about it. What a waste of time.


I beleive you are right on that count. You could postpone this many more times and the numbers probably wouldn't change.


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## jake14mw

This is very simple. If they are not ready now, they will not be ready in 2 months, 4 months or 4 years. There has been a ton of money spent on the education campain, and now there will be even more spent by delaying this.

It's not the end of the world if grandma can't watch the Price is Right until she gets a receiver. Get it done now!


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## kwajr

i have had dvr since 2001 but some people in the house cant understand that they dont have to watch somethings the moment they come on i like to buffer even live stuff like the news recvord for 15 mins then watch. but reaaly some people arnt going to get the dtv switch till they turn on the tv and it aint there


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## capegator

stewp97 said:


> Either way, it doesn't really matter. That number will be the same no matter when the government decides to switch. It will only be after the people loose there signal that they will do anything about it. What a waste of time.


Exactly. There will likely be the same number of analog heads whenever they flip the switch. This will just require stations who have completed the transition to spend millions on continuing to provide an analog signal.

Another issue in our neck of the woods - making the switch in June during the hurricane season. Good timing Congress.

Perhaps we can include a few billion $ in the "stimulus" package for more discount converter coupons.


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## Tom Robertson

I believe I understand why the first bill required suspension of the House Rules (so that bill is completely dead, by the way). House Rules are "pay as you go" and one of the modifications to create the new bill was:


> (d) Condition of Modifications- The amendments made by this section shall not take effect until the enactment of additional budget authority after the date of enactment of this Act to carry out the analog-to-digital converter box program under section 3005 of the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005.


which allows normal bill processing in the House.

Cheers,
Tom


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## tunce

HoTat2 said:


> Well I guess that's easy enough to say, and believe me I'm totally against the DTV delay as well. But while remaining politcally neutral on the issue I have to admit that if I were in government and faced with daunting reports like this from the FCC as linked in the CGC Communicator (issue #871):
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-287163A1.doc
> 
> I honestly can't say I wouldn't have voted for the delay myself if I were in their shoes up on capitol hill.


_(Mod Edit: Redacted)_

Seriously, I would still have not voted for the delay as I believe the Government does not need to be a hand holder for this. I could care less about some people not having a TV, It is not a "right" to have a TV. This country has gotten so backwards in their thinking that everything in life needs to be a "right". When people find out they can vote themselves free gifts, that ends the empire - sound familiar? 

This is gotten way out of hand there are a few "third world" countries that already have switched.


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## Tom Robertson

<Moderator Hat On>

Please remember this is a highly political topic and that DBStalk does not permit political discussion. What we do permit and encourage is matter of fact discussion about government actions as apply to DBS and TV.

So please leave off all commentary about the parties or the political figures. Please don't compare this action to other actions the government might do. And please don't single any government person or group for insults.

Thank you,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

samhevener said:


> I really want to see what the new bill says about "first responder" communications.
> Another point, yesterday's Cleveland Plain Dealer said Channels 3 and 25 will stay analog until June 12 no matter what. I know a retired engineer from channel 3 and he told me the station is having all types of tech problems with their new frequency digital transmitter. Chan 3 is now broadcasting digital on chan 2 and had expected to change to another channel in the teens by now.


Actually the new bill simplifies the language a tiny bit. Basically, if the spectrum is clear in an area, licensees can use it immediately (following all the existing rules for starting those transmissions.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Mark Holtz

Sigh.... if we have so much problems and concerns with the Digital Switch, what is going to happen when we have to transition from IPv4 to IPv6?


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## menkelis

The Portland,OR area WILL be switching to DTV on Feb. 18 as planned.
I can't say anything about the rest of the state.....


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## tunce

dodge boy said:


> Eh, Who cares.... Not a big problem for anyone on this forum... Is anyone going to die or even loose sleep if your analog chanel stays lit longer? Like I've said before all your locals should be digitial aswell by now.....


Do you realize how much money is going to be lost by delaying this? There are companies that laid out billions for the use of the analog frequencies already and now are facing huge losses if this goes through. Just google Verizon and see what they are planning to do to the government if this passes. They are going to use the frequencies for their 4G network and were going to roll this this out soon after the DTV switch. This is not what we need during this messed up economy.

(hope this is ok and not violating anything Tom.  )


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## ziggy29

Let's face it, folks: this is a done deal. Congress will clearly not let this one go, no matter what other issues need their attention a lot more. If they have to ignore the economy for weeks in order to get this done, they will get this done. A half million more people may lose their jobs in the meantime, but our heroes will have saved analog TV for four more months...


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## tunce

Mark Holtz said:


> Sigh.... if we have so much problems and concerns with the Digital Switch, what is going to happen when we have to transition from IPv4 to IPv6?


...oh boy that is the truest statement yet. IPv6 is going to be a mess!

(back to the topic)


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## Tom Robertson

tunce said:


> Do you realize how much money is going to be lost by delaying this? There are companies that laid out billions for the use of the analog frequencies already and now are facing huge losses if this goes through. Just google Verizon and see what they are planning to do to the government if this passes. They are going to use the frequencies for their 4G network and were going to roll this this out soon after the DTV switch. This is not what we need during this messed up economy.
> 
> (hope this is ok and not violating anything Tom.  )


All good stuff. Thanks for reminding us how delaying does cost money in other ways.

People have also mentioned the fairly large electrical costs associated with dual illumination. Ranges I've seen are from $10k to $30k per month depending on the power used.

Cheers,
Tom


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## tunce

Tom Robertson said:


> All good stuff. Thanks for reminding us how delaying does cost money in other ways.
> 
> People have also mentioned the fairly large electrical costs associated with dual illumination. Ranges I've seen are from $10k to $30k per month depending on the power used.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I have also heard on NPR (can't believe I listen to that can you - ha) that the true waste of dual tower electrical cost for the 4 mouth delay will use enough electricity to power every residential house in the United States for 1 whole year! (Wow)


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## bobcamp1

My comments are:

1. Some TVs don't have a coax input. They'll also need an adapter.
2. What about VCRs? You'll also have to train people how to use their VCR in a different way. And did they buy a converter box with timers for VCR use? 
3. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people due to poor eyesight.
4. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people because while they may understand conversational English, they have no idea what many of the words in the scroll mean.
5. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people because while English is their only language, they have no idea what many of the words in the scroll mean.
6. Some people's most complex electronic device is the TV. The toaster is the next most complex electronic device they own. My Grandma has never owned or driven a car, doesn't own a VCR or microwave, and doesn't even own a toaster. For her, the bedside clock is the next most complex device she owns. And she can't set the time on it.
7. Some people may need new antennas. Their old antennas may be fine now, but they may need new antennas on the cutoff date. They may now need to be installed outdoors. In the middle of winter.
8. Some broadcasters may need more time. My digital signals go out all day once a week on my FOX and CBS affiliates.
9. Some people are physically unable to install the new box due to medical issues.
10. The message of "perform a rescan on Feb. 17" isn't getting out to anybody. In many areas, rescans will have to be performed. I think this would cut down on a lot of the phone calls. 

I also know of at least 12 people who still do not understand the analog shutdown is taking place. I've tried explaining it to them, and they just don't get it. And only four of them have cable.


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## ziggy29

Tom Robertson said:


> All good stuff. Thanks for reminding us how delaying does cost money in other ways.
> 
> People have also mentioned the fairly large electrical costs associated with dual illumination. Ranges I've seen are from $10k to $30k per month depending on the power used.


Someone elsewhere quoted a reply they got from engineering at one of the Austin stations. They said they intended to kill the analog signal after 2/17 as long as the legislation allowed them to do so because it was costing them an extra $20,000 a month to keep analog going, and this isn't an economic environment when many businesses are willing to eat that kind of cost if it's not required.


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## Sirshagg

tunce said:


> Do you realize how much money is going to be lost by delaying this? There are companies that laid out billions for the use of the analog frequencies already and now are facing huge losses if this goes through. Just google Verizon and see what they are planning to do to the government if this passes. They are going to use the frequencies for their 4G network and were going to roll this this out soon after the DTV switch. This is not what we need during this messed up economy.
> 
> (hope this is ok and not violating anything Tom.  )


Everything I've seen shows Verizon supports the delay. Qualcomm on the other hand does not.


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## Tom Robertson

bobcamp1 said:


> My comments are:
> 
> 1. Some TVs don't have a coax input. They'll also need an adapter.
> 2. What about VCRs? You'll also have to train people how to use their VCR in a different way. And did they buy a converter box with timers for VCR use?
> 3. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people due to poor eyesight.
> 4. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people because while they may understand conversational English, they have no idea what many of the words in the scroll mean.
> 5. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people because while English is their only language, they have no idea what many of the words in the scroll mean.
> 6. Some people's most complex electronic device is the TV. The toaster is the next most complex electronic device they own. My Grandma has never owned or driven a car, doesn't own a VCR or microwave, and doesn't even own a toaster. For her, the bedside clock is the next most complex device she owns. And she can't set the time on it.
> 7. Some people may need new antennas. Their old antennas may be fine now, but they may need new antennas on the cutoff date. They may now need to be installed outdoors. In the middle of winter.
> 8. Some broadcasters may need more time. My digital signals go out all day once a week on my FOX and CBS affiliates.
> 9. Some people are physically unable to install the new box due to medical issues.
> 10. The message of "perform a rescan on Feb. 17" isn't getting out to anybody. In many areas, rescans will have to be performed. I think this would cut down on a lot of the phone calls.
> 
> I also know of at least 12 people who still do not understand the analog shutdown is taking place. I've tried explaining it to them, and they just don't get it. And only four of them have cable.


Excellent reminders to those of use that don't have any problems crawling in attics, wiring up complex telco and TV infrastructures. 

Funny sidebar. When I met my wife 25 years ago, I was the most technically advanced person she knew, definitely loved the tech toys. (And still do obviously)

Yet, on my headboard was a wind-up baby bell clock. When asked why I didn't have a digital clock, I had a simple answer: wind up clocks still work when the power goes out. Since I had to set an alarm every day anyway, I'd rather be sure it would work. 

Now I don't care if the alarm goes off after power outages, clocks have battery backups, and I have several clocks that set their time to WWV anyway. So I'm back as a tech toymaster. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Pepster

*Senate Passes Second Bill Changing DTV Transition Date
Bill expected to be sent to the House for consideration under regular rules
John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 1/29/2009 5:26:03 PM MT*

Quoting one of my favorite americans, the great Dick Dastardly, drat, drat & double drat.

Can we end this already. No matter what the date is, SOME PEOPLE won't be ready.


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## ThomasM

dodge boy said:


> Eh, Who cares.... Not a big problem for anyone on this forum... Is anyone going to die or even loose sleep if your analog chanel stays lit longer? Like I've said before all your locals should be digitial aswell by now.....


It IS a problem for a lot of knowledgeable people who have upgraded to OTA DTV because many stations are running reduced digital output power or a lower, inferior antenna until space on the top of their tower (now occupied by the analog antenna) can be cleared and the digital transmission antenna moved/upgraded.

This is also causing periodic pixelation of the DirecTV LIL feeds so EVERYONE is affected.


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## loudo

People have know about this for 4 years. The few remaining procrastinators will not be ready in June, anymore than they are ready today. Some people just don't move until they have to. 

Could this Delay Act be over the rights as to who gets the frequencies, once they are released, and have nothing to do with the concern of a small minority of procrastinators, who are not ready?


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## SEAKevin

I have a question that probably has been answered on here in some thread about this topic that I haven't read...

When the official transition occurs will all stations simply shut off their analog signals? 

Or will there be a period of days or weeks where stations will discontinue all analog programming but broadcast a mandatory message (in analog) that explains to the viewer they will no longer get programs unless they get a converter box, and offer a phone number or something where they can call for more info?


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## harsh

loudo said:


> Could this Delay Act be over the rights as to who gets the frequencies, once they are released...


My understanding is that the frequencies are already "sold", so any delay in the transition _may_ result in another missed delivery date of promised bandwidth.


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## harsh

SEAKevin said:


> When the official transition occurs will all stations simply shut off their analog signals?


It is somewhat up to the station. I think it likely that they will shut off their main analog feeds. The confusing part of the DTV transition is that some of the rural translators and low power stations will continue to operate in analog mode as allowed for a certain period after the transition. I'm not sure if the Nielsen surveys took this into account but I'm betting that they didn't.


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## HoTat2

Pepster said:


> *Senate Passes Second Bill Changing DTV Transition Date
> Bill expected to be sent to the House for consideration under regular rules
> John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 1/29/2009 5:26:03 PM MT*
> 
> Quoting one of my favorite americans, the great Dick Dastardly, drat, drat & double drat.
> 
> Can we end this already. No matter what the date is, SOME PEOPLE won't be ready.


Yeah...

But then it seems like the Senate sarcastically snickers like Dastardly's sidekick henchman dog "Muttley" in response and just ignores us on this issue and simply continues pushing for the DTV delay.


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## joshjr

dodge boy said:


> Eh, Who cares.... Not a big problem for anyone on this forum... Is anyone going to die or even loose sleep if your analog chanel stays lit longer? Like I've said before all your locals should be digitial aswell by now.....


Why is that. Not all of us have locals from our provider. Not all OTA is digital so I dont understand your comment.


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## Doug Brott

Here's the text of the legislation .. again, passed by "unanimous consent" as James pointed out which basically means no one objected to it being passed. I don't believe there was a real vote.

Also, it is very clear in the text that if a broadcaster doesn't want to delay, then they don't have to. They simply have to follow the current rules in effect by the FCC. Any broadcaster that does delay is doing so for his/her own reasons.

At this point, I don't care if it is extended or not .. everyone has a choice in the matter. Now if every broadcaster decides to switch, this Bill (soon to be Law) simply become moot.


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## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> It is somewhat up to the station. I think it likely that they will shut off their main analog feeds. The confusing part of the DTV transition is that some of the rural translators and low power stations will continue to operate in analog mode as allowed for a certain period after the transition. I'm not sure if the Nielsen surveys took this into account but I'm betting that they didn't.


You bring up a very interesting point .. I don't think that the new Bill addresses this secondary cut off at all. I have not looked at the text of the original bill (S.352 is an amendment to the "Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005" and the "Communications Act of 1934").

Is is possible that the low power stations will have to still adhere to that original date which will be earlier than June 12? What I don't know is if the low-power rule is an FCC thing vs. a legislative thing.


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## Mark Holtz

When I checked SFGate, SacBee, KCRA, KXTV, and KOVR news sites, no mention of this new bill. Hmmmm.... gotta check NY Times and LA Times.


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## njblackberry

Does anyone else find it ironic that a bill mandating a change in broadcast technology is associated with the "Communications Act of 1934"?


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## Stuart Sweet

No, that was the law that allowed for the creation of the NTSC rules for broadcasting. It remains the pertinent legal precedent until the ATSC rules take effect, although it was superseded by the Telecommunications Act of 1996 which established the ATSC. It did not take an act of Congress to mandate the standards for color or stereo, because they did not interfere with the ability of mono, B&W TVs to get reception.


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## loudo

Mark Holtz said:


> When I checked SFGate, SacBee, KCRA, KXTV, and KOVR news sites, no mention of this new bill. Hmmmm.... gotta check NY Times and LA Times.


Senate passed it last night and House to take it up next week. 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28930229/


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## jazzyjez

It was interesting reading the FCC document that's presumably at the heart of this request for the setback. In part, this is because I live in the Wilmington area that made the transition last September... the writer extrapolates the number of inquiries received here to the entire country, to get a figure of 2.2 million households needing some help. Based on that, it would seem prudent to have some delay -- but as was already pointed out, since in many cases that would just delay the inevitable (i.e. those that don't know now, still won't know in one month or n months) -- so why not have a staggered delay? This could either be by State or time-zone. (Actually there has probably been a lot more information available since our September transition, so that estimate should have been reduced.) 

My own experience has been good -- but less than perfect: like many on this forum, I consider myself a little ahead-of-the-curve, and have set up a couple of new, reasonably high quality antennas and cabling. These two antennas go to each of my HR20 receivers without any splitters, and in one case the cable run is only ~ 20ft. I get a reasonable high level signals -- on average -- across all channels, but if there is any wind (> 20mph), then frequent pixellation and loss of audio is likely. And this is in winter with relatively little foliage around. As spring approaches I anticipate there will be a significant rise in the number of complaints. Since my signal levels are good, it seems most likely that this is multi-path interference -- having read up on this somewhat, I'm inclined to think that the ATSC choice of 8VSB as its modulation system was actually a rather poor one -- we'll see, but there are numerous reports that highlight the weakness of that system compared to COFDM (which is why that was chosen by more-or-less every other country!).


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## scooper

jazzyjez said:


> It was interesting reading the FCC document that's presumably at the heart of this request for the setback. In part, this is because I live in the Wilmington area that made the transition last September... the writer extrapolates the number of inquiries received here to the entire country, to get a figure of 2.2 million households needing some help. Based on that, it would seem prudent to have some delay -- but as was already pointed out, since in many cases that would just delay the inevitable (i.e. those that don't know now, still won't know in one month or n months) -- so why not have a staggered delay? This could either be by State or time-zone. (Actually there has probably been a lot more information available since our September transition, so that estimate should have been reduced.)
> 
> My own experience has been good -- but less than perfect: like many on this forum, I consider myself a little ahead-of-the-curve, and have set up a couple of new, reasonably high quality antennas and cabling. These two antennas go to each of my HR20 receivers without any splitters, and in one case the cable run is only ~ 20ft. I get a reasonable high level signals -- on average -- across all channels, but if there is any wind (> 20mph), then frequent pixellation and loss of audio is likely. And this is in winter with relatively little foliage around. As spring approaches I anticipate there will be a significant rise in the number of complaints. Since my signal levels are good, it seems most likely that this is multi-path interference -- having read up on this somewhat, I'm inclined to think that the ATSC choice of 8VSB as its modulation system was actually a rather poor one -- we'll see, but there are numerous reports that highlight the weakness of that system compared to COFDM (which is why that was chosen by more-or-less every other country!).


At this point that debate is dead and buried. I would advise not bringing it up again. We have what we have.


----------



## KTMCDO

the people cant afford a lowcost 
digital converter box give me a friggin break


----------



## snowcat

If the House does approve of the delay next week, there are going to be a lot of confused consumers on Feb 17/18. I can see headlines reading "Congress delays digital transition till June" and then the local stations shut off their analog anyway. 

I wrote my Representative to vote against the delay, for all the good that it will do me. I guess I can only worry about myself and my extended family, and they are all set.


----------



## spedinfargo

dodge boy said:


> Commercials, what commercials, I mean since I have 4 DVRS I never watch commercials... Maybe you should upgrade your receivers then you won't have to watch those things.... I mean DVRS have been around for 10+ years you mean you haven't got atleast one yet?


It's not commercials for me that's the problem - our local stations run a crawler on top the first 30-60 seconds of each prime-time show with the information (even on my DirecTV SD feed). The worst part about it is that they don't have the equipment to do so properly so it kicks my HD OTA feed down to SD while they're running the crawl... sucks.


----------



## phox_mulder

Most of the broadcasters in Utah decided yesterday to switch off on Feb 17th come what may.

The UBA (Utah Broadcasters Association) got together and voted, the two PBS stations are the only holdouts citing the Federal Money they get as one of the reasons (although not stated in the article below).



> Feb. 17 is still D-Day for Utah viewers unprepared for the switch to digital television.
> 
> That's when most of the state's television stations are planning to shut off their analog signals in the switch to all-digital TV, the president of the Utah Broadcasters Association said Thursday.
> 
> Representatives from the state's eight affiliates met to decide whether to honor a new deadline extension if Congress passes a bill that pushes the date to June 12.
> 
> Commercial stations -- KUTV Channel 2, KTVX Channel 4, KSL Channel 5, KUCW Channel 30, KSTU Channel 13 and KJZZ Channel 14 -- agreed they will shut off their signals on the original Feb. 17 date.
> 
> "We want to shut down together," said UBA President Dale Zabriskie. "It's because of cost. We feel that no matter how long you put this off, not everyone is going to be ready. We think you can wait until June 12 and there still will be people who haven't taken action."
> 
> Meanwhile, the state's two public stations, KUED Channel 7 and KBYU Channel 11, say they will wait longer to make the transition and perhaps abide by the June 12 deadline.
> 
> "Congress and the president are saying it's a good idea, and we're public television," said KUED general manager Larry Smith. "But we're torn between the public-service thing and if it's good to keep [the analog signal] going while everyone else is off."


http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11584425

phox


----------



## James Long

dodge boy said:


> Eh, Who cares.... Not a big problem for anyone on this forum... Is anyone going to die or even loose sleep if your analog chanel stays lit longer? Like I've said before all your locals should be digitial aswell by now.....


As noted, often, in order for many stations to get to their best digital signals on the air they will need to kill their analog signals or neighboring stations will need to kill their analog signals. Right now Digital TV is LIMITED by the existence of analog TV. The quicker analog goes away, the better.

My locals are digital, but they are not as good as they will be once analog goes away. And while most people here are satellite subscribers, getting HD often means a local antenna trying to pick up an OTA signal. Lingering analog DOES affect us.


----------



## jpl

bobcamp1 said:


> My comments are:
> 
> 1. Some TVs don't have a coax input. They'll also need an adapter.
> 2. What about VCRs? You'll also have to train people how to use their VCR in a different way. And did they buy a converter box with timers for VCR use?
> 3. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people due to poor eyesight.
> 4. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people because while they may understand conversational English, they have no idea what many of the words in the scroll mean.
> 5. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people because while English is their only language, they have no idea what many of the words in the scroll mean.
> 6. Some people's most complex electronic device is the TV. The toaster is the next most complex electronic device they own. My Grandma has never owned or driven a car, doesn't own a VCR or microwave, and doesn't even own a toaster. For her, the bedside clock is the next most complex device she owns. And she can't set the time on it.
> 7. Some people may need new antennas. Their old antennas may be fine now, but they may need new antennas on the cutoff date. They may now need to be installed outdoors. In the middle of winter.
> 8. Some broadcasters may need more time. My digital signals go out all day once a week on my FOX and CBS affiliates.
> 9. Some people are physically unable to install the new box due to medical issues.
> 10. The message of "perform a rescan on Feb. 17" isn't getting out to anybody. In many areas, rescans will have to be performed. I think this would cut down on a lot of the phone calls.
> 
> I also know of at least 12 people who still do not understand the analog shutdown is taking place. I've tried explaining it to them, and they just don't get it. And only four of them have cable.


And a delay of 4 months is going to help these people... how? Nevermind the fact that this bill will still allow stations to shut down their analogs if they want. If this whole situation is confusing now, can you imagine if you see the news that there's been a 4 month extension, and you wake up on the 18th, you find that your stations are shut off anyway? How in the world does this delay help? THAT'S the question that Congress needs to answer. No one has convinced me, yet, that the problem with all this is that there hasn't been enough time for people to get ready. If that was the issue then I would agree with a delay. That isn't the problem - so a delay isn't going to help. It will just cost more money, and make things even more confusing.


----------



## James Long

SEAKevin said:


> When the official transition occurs will all stations simply shut off their analog signals?


Just over 800 stations _*qualify*_ to continue analog service for 30 days beyond the deadline (current or changed) with transition information and any emergency information (should an emergency occur).

Very few stations have expressed interest in remaining on the air beyond February 17th. Over 300 stations have already silenced analog or will by or on February 17th.


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> Is is possible that the low power stations will have to still adhere to that original date which will be earlier than June 12? What I don't know is if the low-power rule is an FCC thing vs. a legislative thing.


There is no date set for ending analog low power/translator service.

The FCC began accepting translator applications at the beginning of the month for post-transition digital translators to "fill in" any coverage lost between analog and digital patterns. But there is no date certain for ending LP analog.

Getting the full power analogs out of the way would help end the LP analogs.


----------



## Tom Robertson

phox_mulder said:


> Most of the broadcasters in Utah decided yesterday to switch off on Feb 17th come what may.
> 
> The UBA (Utah Broadcasters Association) got together and voted, the two PBS stations are the only holdouts citing the Federal Money they get as one of the reasons (although not stated in the article below).
> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11584425
> 
> phox


Phox, I particularly thank you for updating how my stations are going! 

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## hasan

Threre is no question there are going to be problems with the transition, no matter what date is involved. Many people (and I deal with them daily), don't understand ANYTHING about the transition and the implications of going digital versus just turning on a TV and changing to a channel number (as under the analog system). No amount of time is going to help these people. They need to be instructed "by the numbers" how to do it. This isn't going to change.

The best justification for the delay was given by Press Secretary Gibbs in the daily briefing today:

It was recommended by the transition group (whoever they are) to delay because:

1. They are over a million coupons short of current need.
2. The call center (FCC) that was set up to allow people to order the coupons via telephone was *grossly* underpowered, and left many with no "simple" way to get coupons.

Both of these are seen as "no fault" of the consumer, but rather of the system that was set up to serve them.

What doesn't make any sense at all, if the above two points are accurate, is allowing the digital switch over to take place on the 17th of Feb, on a station by station basis. If a given locality decides en mass, to switch on the 17th anyway, it leaves those afflicted by 1 and 2 above with no recourse.

What does make sense is to mandate a push back of the date to June 12, or whenever they can make 1 and 2 above non-factors.

I don't like it, but I do understand what they are trying to do, as poorly thought out as it appears to be. Either we go forward and let those left out deal with it, or we push it back until the "no faulters" can be included. Doing it half-baked is going to mess a lot of people up and as a result, they will have even less confidence that the government can get anything right (if that's even possible)

Maybe we can use some of the bail-out bucks to compensate stations for the increased power bills resulting from keeping analog on the grid.

We could take the millions of dollars of bail-out bonus dollars that executives gave themselves and their cronies to pay a lot of power bills.

More seriously, this isn't an easy problem to work out. No solution I've seen is going to make everyone happy, and depending on which constituency one gores, they can be very loud. The people on these forums are very loud, even though minimally gored. The station owners are loud. The general public often gets lost in the shuffle. This whole mess is yet another case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.


----------



## n3ntj

A local station (WGAL) did a story yesterday about state prisoners having TVs in their cells that are antenna only and only something like 10% have bought converter boxes. They gave this as another reason to delay the analog shutdown until June. My question is, why are earth do we care if prisoners can watch TV after the 17th?

Just stick with the original date (Feb 17th). Why change the rules at this late time (just weeks before the shutdown that everyone know about years ago)? If you think there will be people 'confused' on the 18th if the analog channels do shut down (claiming they never knew of DTV), think of the confusion if they don't shutdown on the 17th after they've been telling us for years it was going to shutdown on the 17th.

Not having a gov't coupon doesn't mean you can't get a converter box. It just means you can't get something for nothing from the gov't. If you waited this long to get a converter box and sign up for a free coupon, and can't get a coupon, go out and just buy the $60 converted box yourself.

I just called and emailed my congressman to ask that any attempt to delay the conversion again be voted AGAINST.

IF a bill does get introduced in the House again, let's hope someone sticks some other pork in the bill making it different b/w the two Houses and the bills have to go back and forth...maybe all of these delays will take us past the Feb 17th date and the issue will be moot.


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> I believe I understand why the first bill required suspension of the House Rules (so that bill is completely dead, by the way). House Rules are "pay as you go" and one of the modifications to create the new bill was:
> 
> 
> 
> (d) Condition of Modifications- The amendments made by this section shall not take effect until the enactment of additional budget authority after the date of enactment of this Act to carry out the analog-to-digital converter box program under section 3005 of the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005.
> 
> 
> 
> which allows normal bill processing in the House.
Click to expand...

Technically, the senate is not permitted to spend money. Spending bills must come from the house. Because of that rule I agree that suspension of the rules was more than just suspending the committee process. I kinda wish they would STATE which rules were suspended.


----------



## loudo

hasan said:


> It was recommended by the transition group (whoever they are) to delay because:
> 1. They are over a million coupons short of current need.
> 2. The call center (FCC) that was set up to allow people to order the coupons via telephone was *grossly* underpowered, and left many with no "simple" way to get coupons.


I heard an interesting story on TV this noon. They said that there was originally enough coupons, but many of the coupons that were given out and never used. Looks like many people applied for them that never had any intention to use them, or bought new TVs and never used the coupons. They said if you needed a coupon check with friends and neighbors to see if any of them had gotten them and not used them.

If the call center was messed people could have used the Internet to order them also. https://www.dtv2009.gov/


----------



## hasan

loudo said:


> I heard an interesting story on TV this noon. They said that there was originally enough coupons, but many of the coupons that were given out and never used. Looks like many people applied for them that never had any intention to use them, or bought new TVs and never used the coupons. They said if you needed a coupon check with friends and neighbors to see if any of them had gotten them and not used them.
> 
> If the call center was messed people could have used the Internet to order them also. https://www.dtv2009.gov/


The very people who wanted to use the phone order system are exactly the people who are not internet savvy, or may not even have internet connections available to them. Many local people have complained they could barely understand the "simple" phone order system.

Certainly many people ordered coupons and did not use them. Many others ordered them, received them, but there were no local stores that had the converters in stock before the coupons expired. Stock was very limited in this area for a six week period, and that was followed by no stock for three more weeks. The fact is, there have been problems, not all of which are attributable to the consumer.

This whole process has been difficult for a large segment of the viewing public. There wasn't much that could be done to make it easier, other than not running out of coupons and having call centers that could process the volume of calls.

There is no doubt that many people have no one to blame but themselves. It is equally certain that others were without fault. Therein lies the rub. Cavalierly dismissing their situation does us no credit.

No matter what side of the debate one finds oneself on, we are still left with only three options:

1. Let them eat cake
2. Half-baked analog turn off
3. Full push back.

The only way this is going to happen as quickly and "clearly" as it can is to proceed with the 17 Feb shut down of analog. I don't envy those left out in the dark through no fault of their own.


----------



## hasan

From the Director of Engineering and Technology at Iowa Public Television (today):

"IPTV will continue to operate analog services until the mandated analog shutoff date whether that is February 17, 2009 or the proposed June 12, 2009. There is indeed an added cost to maintaining two operations and our costs are amplified due to the fact that we have 9 full powered facilities statewide that are each operating two transmitters. Based on my experience doing DTV information sessions statewide (and out of state, I was just in Albert Lea on Tuesday) there are a great many people that rely on over the air television reception that are not ready. We think IPTV is better serving the viewer and communities that rely on us by continuing to operate analog for as long as possible to provide the most opportunity for people to get ready and deal with any reception issues. We recognize that even if we delay until June, we will still deal with the procrastinators but we would rather have them scrambling on their roofs checking antennas and cables in June rather than February."

<posted on AVS forum HDTV local Des Moines, IA>

Notice, this person is not interested in finding fault with the consumers, rather he is merely acknowledging that "a great many people ...are not ready", and is committed to serving them.

While I would prefer to go ahead with things, he makes a good point about antenna work (at least in Iowa). I find this abundance of concern for those left out (their fault or not), refreshing and admire this director for his commitment to the viewing public.


----------



## jpl

James Long said:


> Technically, the senate is not permitted to spend money. Spending bills must come from the house. Because of that rule I agree that suspension of the rules was more than just suspending the committee process. I kinda wish they would STATE which rules were suspended.


Excellent point - and you beat me to it. All funding bills HAVE to originate in the House (the stimulus package is case in point).


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

hasan said:


> Notice, this person is not interested in finding fault with the consumers, rather he is merely acknowledging that "a great many people ...are not ready", and is committed to serving them.
> 
> While I would prefer to go ahead with things, he makes a good point about antenna work (at least in Iowa). I find this abundance of concern for those left out (their fault or not), refreshing and admire this director for his commitment to the viewing public.


He can apparently afford to be admirable. I guess that the State of Iowa does a superior job funding its Public TV stations. That is excellent, and praiseworthy.

However, commercial broadcasters don't have government funding, and corporate/public donations. They must deal with budgetary realities.

With declining local TV revenues, due to competition from cable, satellite, and Internet...even before the economic woes began, and the cost of the DTV transition, we are talking about cutting even more jobs to delay the end of analog.

That's why the overwhelming majority of stations have stated publicly that they are planning to go digital only on 2/18 regardless of a cut-off date extension.


----------



## jpl

hasan said:


> The very people who wanted to use the phone order system are exactly the people who are not internet savvy, or may not even have internet connections available to them. Many local people have complained they could barely understand the "simple" phone order system.
> 
> Certainly many people ordered coupons and did not use them. Many others ordered them, received them, but there were no local stores that had the converters in stock before the coupons expired. Stock was very limited in this area for a six week period, and that was followed by no stock for three more weeks. The fact is, there have been problems, not all of which are attributable to the consumer.
> 
> This whole process has been difficult for a large segment of the viewing public. There wasn't much that could be done to make it easier, other than not running out of coupons and having call centers that could process the volume of calls.
> 
> There is no doubt that many people have no one to blame but themselves. It is equally certain that others were without fault. Therein lies the rub. Cavalierly dismissing their situation does us no credit.
> 
> No matter what side of the debate one finds oneself on, we are still left with only three options:
> 
> 1. Let them eat cake
> 2. Half-baked analog turn off
> 3. Full push back.
> 
> The only way this is going to happen as quickly and "clearly" as it can is to proceed with the 17 Feb shut down of analog. I don't envy those left out in the dark through no fault of their own.


I'm not about to defend how the coupon program was administered, but this is a non-starter, to me. The same people that have no issue going out and buying a TV... paying for the electricity to watch said TV... are out in the dark with this? Even if it's true that they couldn't get through via the phone number, why in the world is that an issue? I understand there are people who are on fixed incomes... I get that.... but the notion that this can't happen because government didn't plan for every eventuality... every possible issue... is, to be honest, pretty flabbergasting. The coupon program was never meant to cover every case... it was never even meant just to go to the poor - or it would have required means-testing. No, it wasn't perfect - far from it - but the notion that people are just doomed if they can't get a coupon, when they can spend $40 to get a converter box. I'm sorry, but I really don't think $40 is all that much of a burden if you want to watch TV. For crying out loud, is it really that much to ask that people take a little responsibility for themselves on this?

I don't know the first thing about car repair, but if my car has a problem I don't just sit around bemoaning that the government didn't do enough to cover whatever problem I had - I go to someone who knows how, and I get it fixed. Sometimes it's more than I want/can afford to pay for the repair, but the incentive is great enough for me to get the car fixed.

I was ok with the coupon program to begin with because this change is government-mandated. I never applied for any coupons myself, even though I had a spare TV that could have used one, because I have no issue going out and spending $40 to keep the TV going should I desire it.


----------



## hasan

Kansas Zephyr said:


> He can apparently afford to be admirable. I guess that the State of Iowa does a superior job funding its Public TV stations. That is excellent, and praiseworthy.
> 
> However, commercial broadcasters don't have government funding, and corporate/public donations. They must deal with budgetary realities.
> 
> With declining local TV revenues, due to competition from cable, satellite, and Internet...even before the economic woes began, and the cost of the DTV transition, we are talking about cutting even more jobs to delay the end of analog.
> 
> That's why the overwhelming majority of stations have stated publicly that they are planning to go digital only on 2/18 regardless of a cut-off date extension.


...and I applaud them for doing it. Don't misread my respect for IPTV as pro-pushback. I think any commercial station that runs analog one minute more than absolutely necessary is nuts. It is a waste of money. IPTV can, as you noted, raise money from its subscribers, many of whom would approve the concerns the director listed, and willingly have some portion of their donations used to subsidize analog for a short period of time.


----------



## Upstream

I was against the extension. But it seems that the extension also includes a provision to allow reissuing of expired coupons. That's a free $40 for me. So now I'm in favor of the extension (unless there is no money for the reissuing of coupons, so I can't get my free $40, in which case I'm still against the extension).


----------



## capegator

hasan said:


> From the Director of Engineering and Technology at Iowa Public Television (today):
> 
> "IPTV will continue to operate analog services until the mandated analog shutoff date whether that is February 17, 2009 or the proposed June 12, 2009. There is indeed an added cost to maintaining two operations and our costs are amplified due to the fact that we have 9 full powered facilities statewide that are each operating two transmitters. Based on my experience doing DTV information sessions statewide (and out of state, I was just in Albert Lea on Tuesday) there are a great many people that rely on over the air television reception that are not ready. We think IPTV is better serving the viewer and communities that rely on us by continuing to operate analog for as long as possible to provide the most opportunity for people to get ready and deal with any reception issues. We recognize that even if we delay until June, we will still deal with the procrastinators but we would rather have them scrambling on their roofs checking antennas and cables in June rather than February."
> 
> <posted on AVS forum HDTV local Des Moines, IA>
> 
> Notice, this person is not interested in finding fault with the consumers, rather he is merely acknowledging that "a great many people ...are not ready", and is committed to serving them.
> 
> While I would prefer to go ahead with things, he makes a good point about antenna work* (at least in Iowa)*. I find this abundance of concern for those left out (their fault or not), refreshing and admire this director for his commitment to the viewing public.


Which will be hurricane season in other areas of the country. Do you think maybe some of these folks that only have analog also may rely on TV for emergency information? I'd also hate to be on my roof checking an antenna during a tropical storm. Oh well, the acting chairman chairman of the FCC, Michael Copps, blamed it on Bush today. http://www.pcworld.com/article/158647/chairman_fcc_has_no_coherent_plan_for_dtv.html


----------



## davidatl14

hasan said:


> The very people who wanted to use the phone order system are exactly the people who are not internet savvy, or may not even have internet connections available to them. Many local people have complained they could barely understand the "simple" phone order system.
> 
> Certainly many people ordered coupons and did not use them. Many others ordered them, received them, but there were no local stores that had the converters in stock before the coupons expired. Stock was very limited in this area for a six week period, and that was followed by no stock for three more weeks. The fact is, there have been problems, not all of which are attributable to the consumer.
> 
> This whole process has been difficult for a large segment of the viewing public. There wasn't much that could be done to make it easier, other than not running out of coupons and having call centers that could process the volume of calls.
> 
> There is no doubt that many people have no one to blame but themselves. It is equally certain that others were without fault. Therein lies the rub. Cavalierly dismissing their situation does us no credit.
> 
> No matter what side of the debate one finds oneself on, we are still left with only three options:
> 
> 1. Let them eat cake
> 2. Half-baked analog turn off
> 3. Full push back.
> 
> The only way this is going to happen as quickly and "clearly" as it can is to proceed with the 17 Feb shut down of analog. I don't envy those left out in the dark through no fault of their own.


Of the above choices put me solidly in the #1 camp.

*LET THEM EAT CAKE*

If you aren't ready for this, you can make a further evaluation after access to your Local TV stations are cut off.

This is nobody's fault except the individual(s) in question.


----------



## txtommy

bobcamp1 said:


> My comments are:
> 
> 1. Some TVs don't have a coax input. They'll also need an adapter.
> 2. What about VCRs? You'll also have to train people how to use their VCR in a different way. And did they buy a converter box with timers for VCR use?
> 3. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people due to poor eyesight.
> 4. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people because while they may understand conversational English, they have no idea what many of the words in the scroll mean.
> 5. That tiny print scrolling across the bottom of the screen can't be read by many people because while English is their only language, they have no idea what many of the words in the scroll mean.
> 6. Some people's most complex electronic device is the TV. The toaster is the next most complex electronic device they own. My Grandma has never owned or driven a car, doesn't own a VCR or microwave, and doesn't even own a toaster. For her, the bedside clock is the next most complex device she owns. And she can't set the time on it.
> 7. Some people may need new antennas. Their old antennas may be fine now, but they may need new antennas on the cutoff date. They may now need to be installed outdoors. In the middle of winter.
> 8. Some broadcasters may need more time. My digital signals go out all day once a week on my FOX and CBS affiliates.
> 9. Some people are physically unable to install the new box due to medical issues.
> 10. The message of "perform a rescan on Feb. 17" isn't getting out to anybody. In many areas, rescans will have to be performed. I think this would cut down on a lot of the phone calls.
> 
> I also know of at least 12 people who still do not understand the analog shutdown is taking place. I've tried explaining it to them, and they just don't get it. And only four of them have cable.


Other than item #7, how many of these will change before June 12th?

On the 17th all analog stations should cease all normal broadcasting. In place of normal programming a short message stating that all transmissions are now digital and a simple message describing what needs to be done to resume reception of programming. The message should repeat over and over for several days and then shut down. That will get the message out to all those people who have somehow ignored it thus far. Suggested solutions listed in the message would include purchasing a box or calling a friend/relative who has some technical skills. If a friend, relative or neighbor called me I'd certainly be willing to pick up a box on my next trip to the store and show them how to hook it up. My Mom would have great difficulty understanding what needs to be done but would have little difficultly finding several people willing to hook it up for her at no cost.


----------



## Mark Holtz

capegator said:


> Which will be hurricane season in other areas of the country. Do you think maybe some of these folks that only have analog also may rely on TV for emergency information? I'd also hate to be on my roof checking an antenna during a tropical storm.


The last time I looked, I have a nice battery powered radio setting about three feet away from my desk at work that tunes in AM/FM, Weatherband, and TV band (although that's going away) in case power goes out in the building.


----------



## Pepster

Upstream said:


> I was against the extension. But it seems that the extension also includes a provision to allow reissuing of expired coupons. That's a free $40 for me. So now I'm in favor of the extension (unless there is no money for the reissuing of coupons, so I can't get my free $40, in which case I'm still against the extension).


If the reissued coupons are good for the same 90 days as the previous one, it only means another batch of people who will *STILL PROCRASTINATE, NO MATTER WHAT DATE IS SET*, will be put on hold.

You slow, you blow. Too bad, just wait for the next train.


----------



## ViVi

I noticed while watching "Hell's Kitchen" last night that there promo has changed and now says something int he way of "in the coming months you will learn more about the digital transition". They then flash a screen at the end of the promo with the February 17th date.


----------



## Tom Robertson

How about were able to buy the TV in 1985.
Worked to pay for the electricity until 1987.
Now retired.
No longer quite up to working on said TV.

Or someone bought the TV for them and hooked it up for them. (And set the VCR time for them.)

How about...

I'm not for extending. I think it will only make things much, much more confusing and not really help.

But I do have some compassion for people who would find it difficult to do this themselves at this point in their lives. Even if they could fix your car 30 years ago...

Cheers,
Tom


jpl said:


> I'm not about to defend how the coupon program was administered, but this is a non-starter, to me. The same people that have no issue going out and buying a TV... paying for the electricity to watch said TV... are out in the dark with this? Even if it's true that they couldn't get through via the phone number, why in the world is that an issue? I understand there are people who are on fixed incomes... I get that.... but the notion that this can't happen because government didn't plan for every eventuality... every possible issue... is, to be honest, pretty flabbergasting. The coupon program was never meant to cover every case... it was never even meant just to go to the poor - or it would have required means-testing. No, it wasn't perfect - far from it - but the notion that people are just doomed if they can't get a coupon, when they can spend $40 to get a converter box. I'm sorry, but I really don't think $40 is all that much of a burden if you want to watch TV. For crying out loud, is it really that much to ask that people take a little responsibility for themselves on this?
> 
> I don't know the first thing about car repair, but if my car has a problem I don't just sit around bemoaning that the government didn't do enough to cover whatever problem I had - I go to someone who knows how, and I get it fixed. Sometimes it's more than I want/can afford to pay for the repair, but the incentive is great enough for me to get the car fixed.
> 
> I was ok with the coupon program to begin with because this change is government-mandated. I never applied for any coupons myself, even though I had a spare TV that could have used one, because I have no issue going out and spending $40 to keep the TV going should I desire it.


----------



## hasan

davidatl14 said:


> Of the above choices put me solidly in the #1 camp.
> 
> *LET THEM EAT CAKE*
> 
> If you aren't ready for this, you can make a further evaluation after access to your Local TV stations are cut off.
> 
> This is nobody's fault except the individual(s) in question.


Which completely ignores the coupon availability problems, the box availability problems and the dysfunctional phone system. Don't be so quick to assign blame to only one party, as there's plenty to go around.

Fortunately, our votes won't count for much and they will do whatever suits them. We just end up having to live with it.


----------



## James Long

jpl said:


> The same people that have no issue going out and buying a TV... paying for the electricity to watch said TV... are out in the dark with this? Even if it's true that they couldn't get through via the phone number, why in the world is that an issue?


The people in the most need probably have not purchased a TV set in the past 10 years. TVs last a while.

They probably don't know how much their TV is costing them in electricity and it may be all that they have to connect them with the world outside that door.

That being said, assuming all 1800+ stations all left their analog transmitters on until June 12th those problems will still exist on June 13th. At some point education ends and one has to put that education to good use.

Current figures show 30% of all TV stations will be all digital by or on February 18th. That number is likely to grow. We're going to get a phased in transition. Just think of the new date as an "extended nightlight".

I don't believe the date should be changed ... but as long as the STATIONS are honest about when THEY will be turning off analog it will work out OK.


----------



## davidatl14

hasan said:


> Which completely ignores the coupon availability problems, the box availability problems and the dysfunctional phone system. Don't be so quick to assign blame to only one party, as there's plenty to go around.
> 
> Fortunately, our votes won't count for much and they will do whatever suits them. We just end up having to live with it.


Beg to differ, not ignoring anything just understanding that all programs like the coupon program will be flawed it's just a matter of to what degree.

Nothing changes by extending the date, instead of (6.5M) amount not being ready there will now be (6.495M) not ready and the same people will still be making excuses and want another extension.

Just cut to the chase, pull the plug.

On a side note on the coupon program, (just my opinion) which I acknowledge up front will be in the minority, there wouldn't have been a coupon program at all. Make the PSA for a set period of time, set a hard date and follow through.


----------



## lwilli201

I doubt there is anything in this bill that will help the elderly who do not have the knowledge to understand what is going on, and are not capable of connecting the box, and will not be able to replace their antenna if required. I have no sympathy for the procrastinators and those that do not wish to keep up with what is going on around them. The elderly are the most vulnerable and there is nothing, it appears, that will help them no matter how long it is delayed. Without caring and knowledgeable relatives or friends, they will be in the dark.


----------



## jpl

Tom Robertson said:


> How about were able to buy the TV in 1985.
> Worked to pay for the electricity until 1987.
> Now retired.
> No longer quite up to working on said TV.
> 
> Or someone bought the TV for them and hooked it up for them. (And set the VCR time for them.)
> 
> How about...
> 
> I'm not for extending. I think it will only make things much, much more confusing and not really help.
> 
> But I do have some compassion for people who would find it difficult to do this themselves at this point in their lives. Even if they could fix your car 30 years ago...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Look, I have compassion for them too (didn't mean to come across that harshly), but I'm frankly a little tired of the 'world is going to end for these people unless the government does something' stuff. I've offered my services to more than one person to help them through this - my wife's 90+ year old grandparents, e.g. A VAST majority of people will be fine with this. At the end of the day, $40 is not alot to ask someone to shoulder to keep watching TV - that's my point. It's like the people who tell me that they're on fixed incomes, but they have plenty of money to play the lottery. Of all the people I know who got the coupons I can honestly say not a single one of them needed the assistance. The program was never meant to be all things to all people to begin with. If we're looking to ensure that no one is left without TV with the transition, we may as well scrap the whole thing right now. Anything that's done - any change that's made - will cause someone to be in the dark.

Yes, I feel for those people... I really do. But I also believe that people aren't as helpless as many like to paint them. One final point - this bill, instead of helping people, I believe will make things worse. It'll add to the confusion... it'll cost the companies who spent the money on the bandwidth money, at a time when we really can't afford to be doing that to these companies. We have all sorts of fees and taxes that go along with these services. I don't see anyone screaming, e.g., that we should eliminate all the federal taxes on phone service... how much more does that affect people than a single $40 charge for an adapter that will last them for years? Not to get political about this, but we having these same people pay all sorts of fees and taxes for very basic services, but the thought of having to have them shell out $40 for an adapter is unreasonable? I guess I just fail to see it.


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## txtommy

From the DTV website FAQ's:



> Can I replace a lost or stolen coupon?
> No. Coupons cannot be reissued. If you have requested one coupon, you may be eligible to receive another. If both coupons have been lost or stolen, or you have requested both coupons, used one, and the other coupon is lost or stolen, by law we are unable to reissue coupon replacements. While it is illegal to sell coupons, giving a coupon for free to a family member, friend, or neighbor is not prohibited under Program regulations.
> 
> If a coupon expires before it is used, can I re-apply?
> If a consumer requests only one coupon and it expires before it is used, then they can apply for a second coupon. Once two coupons have been issued to that household, the consumer will no longer be eligible to request any more coupons. Coupons expire 90 days after they are mailed.


How many of the 6.5 million households fall into one of the above categories? Unless the rules are changed these people will never be able to use a coupon to purchase a box no matter how long we postpone the change.


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## James Long

txtommy said:


> How many of the 6.5 million households fall into one of the above categories? Unless the rules are changed these people will never be able to use a coupon to purchase a box no matter how long we postpone the change.


The pending legislation will allow reissues of expired coupons but not lost and stolen coupons. A good idea, since coupons are issued to individuals as long as the NTIA tracked the coupons by who they sent them to and can tell who's coupons went expired a reissue should be possible.

Lost or stolen ... as long as they were not used they would be expired. Otherwise it comes down to who is responsible if, say, someone stole your social security benefit or tax refund. The government? Personal responsibility plays a role.

The bad news is that there are several house bills that have been waiting in committee since early January that could have fixed the coupons. Yet nothing was done with those bills. If coupons are the problem coupons should be the solution. Not delay.


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## capegator

Mark Holtz said:


> The last time I looked, I have a nice battery powered radio setting about three feet away from my desk at work that tunes in AM/FM, Weatherband, and TV band (although that's going away) in case power goes out in the building.


Wow. Ok, I guess my point was stated too subtlety. I am certainly glad that you have a battery powered radio at work. You obviously have internet access. Since you are posting on a site devoted to discussion on satellite television, I would assume that you probably have a subscription to satellite television.

What much of the discussion here was regarding were the people who obviously do not have all of the accouterments that you enjoy. Their analog television is their link to the outside world, and disturbing that link could lead to these unfortunate souls to venture upon their roofs on a cold February evening to adjust their antennas. I assume that was what the PBS engineer in Iowa was referring to when he spoke of a switch in February.

My point regarding postponing the switch to June, during the Atlantic Hurricane season, was meant to demonstrate that any time that the switch is made will be problematic for some. A switch in June, while a storm is threatening the Atlantic coast, could lead to a lack of distribution of emergency information by emergency managers and a threat to individuals injuring themselves by trying to adjust an antenna upon their roof.

You see, it doesn't, in my humble estimation, help to delay the switch for any period of time because there will be a population that doesn't not know and cannot adapt easily.

Congress should get on with it. Help those that need help after the switch, whenever it happens. [] Enjoy your radio.

!pride


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## homeskillet

According to information from the Kansas Association of Broadcasters all commercial/public television stations in the state of Kansas will switch to Digital only on Feb. 17 no matter what. This includes the markets of Wichita, Topeka, Pittsburg, and Kansas City.


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## Tom Robertson

Thanks for the update, homeskillet!


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## rug1000

Tom Robertson said:


> I believe I understand why the first bill required suspension of the House Rules (so that bill is completely dead, by the way). House Rules are "pay as you go" and one of the modifications to create the new bill was:which allows normal bill processing in the House.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The House Committee on Rules recently announced a meeting which would allow "fast-tracking" of this new bill without a 2/3 majority needed for rules suspension. The meeting is set for February 3 and the House could start debating the bill as soon as the Rules Committee takes action at the meeting. Only the traditional majority will be needed to pass the bill. Here's the announcement.

-Rug


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## n3ntj

After 2 years of telling EVERYONE of this switch on Feb 17th, imagine how confused some people will be if this delay happens...


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## Mark Holtz

From New York Times:

*Digital TV Beckons, but Many Miss the Call *


> Vesta Clemmons, who is 77 and lives alone, relies on the battered Zenith television in her tiny apartment here as more than just a lifeline to the outside world.
> 
> (paragraph deleted)
> 
> So Ms. Clemmons was concerned to learn from a public-service campaign that after Feb. 17 the rooftop antenna connected to her television would no longer function properly, and thus neither would her TV - unless she bought and installed an adaptor. On that day the country's broadcast stations have long been scheduled to shut down the old-fashioned, analog signals that have carried their programming since the days of Milton Berle, and replace them with high-definition digital signals that offer a clearer picture, among other benefits.


FULL ARTICLE HERE

*Analog TV Shutoff Still Likely to Be Delayed*


> If you plan to put a new antenna on your roof to receive digital TV signals, you may not need to get out your parka and safety lines yet.
> 
> The House of Representatives voted down a bill Wednesday to push back the date analog television signals will end from Feb. 17 to June 12. The vote in favor of the bill was 258 to 168, less than the two-thirds needed under a special procedure meant to speed consideration of the measure, which passed the Senate unanimously on Wednesday.


FULL ARTICLE HERE


----------



## hdtvfan0001

It pretty evident that this freight train legislation to delay to June 12th will be going full steam ahead next week and likely only stop once it has passed the "approval" station. 

After reading the entire thread, as well as attached articles and other sources...the impact may be alot less than the legislators think, in that many stations will switch off their analof this month as originally scheduled anyway.

This all seems to be a solution without a problem.


----------



## jpl

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This all seems to be a solution without a problem.


Amen! That's the reason I'm so opposed to this bill. It's window-dressing, that's all. And window-dressing that will lead to more confusion... not less. Again, Congress is just making this stuff up - they're saying that a delay will help. I don't think it will because there's been plenty of time to get ready for this. The coupons started shipping a year ago. The boxes became available shortly after that. Congress never intended for the program to cover everyone possible. If that was the case they never would have made it a first-come-first-serve set-up... it would have required means-testing, which it didn't. There's alot to criticize in the coupon program, but to believe that a four-month delay is what's needed to correct those short-comings is beyond short-sighted. It makes no sense. This is a bill designed for political cover - that's all.


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## leww37334

Here is what will happen if Congress proceeds with the delay.


Joe says: "They told us the switch over would happen on Feb 17, it is Feb 18 and my TV still works fine so I don't have to make any changes."

June rolls around and Joe still isn't ready.


No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the legislature is in session. 

-- Ben Franklin


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## jsk

This whole thing hasn't been communicated very well. Most of the PSA's that I have seen about the change were on digital subchannels with no mention that if you are receiving this signal, you are at least going to continue receiving it after the transition.

Testing is going to need to be done before all of the new occupants of the frequencies will be able to roll out their new services. There should be some sort of frequency sharing during the transition where the TV stations & new occupants can work out a schedule where they are on sometimes (especially during news programs). When they are on, they should broadcast a large text message only on the analog channel about the transition every hour. People who aren't ready will get the idea that they need to change, but won't be completely isolated and the new occupants will be able to test their services to be able to launch them on time.

However, I think all of this is too late to consider. I would imagine that even if there was any sort of deadline extension many stations would still turn off their analog signals because they probably already planned economically and logistically for the switch. I assume that it isn't as simple as flipping a switch, but they may have planned for a smaller electric bill, removing their old transmitter, ending leases for towers, making modifications to their new transmitter, and a million other things.


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## Lord Vader

From what I have read, the major difference between this bill and the last one passed by the Senate is that the word "voluntary" has been inserted here, thereby making the delay and/or switch voluntary for any and all stations involved.


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## Bobby H

While acknowledging certain low income and elderly TV viewers are not ready for the end of analog broadcasts, why does all of the burden of getting their TV setups up to speed automatically rest on the shoulders of the government?

My relatives who are older or elderly are all ready for the DTV switch because their younger, more technologically astute family members have helped them either buy new DTV capable television sets or get satellite/cable TV subscriptions (or in most cases, both).

I think this is one of the failures of the DTV campaign. They haven't put forth any messages to younger people to look after their parents, grandparents or other relatives who may not be prepared for the change.

Strangely, family members have handled the process on their own to hook up DVD players, modern DVRs and even gaming consoles like the Nintendo Wii for their older relatives. Lately I've been helping out my 71 year old aunt get the hang of using Windows XP so she can keep all her digital photos of family members properly organized and make prints when she wants.

On the whole, helping a family member hook up a DTV converter box is pretty easy compared to other pieces of modern information and entertainment technology.

And then lets look at the low income crowd. Some truly have it hard and deserve whatever assistance they can get from the government.

However, there are others who are just routinely irresponsible with their money. Here in Oklahoma lots of low income people waste much of their incomes in bingo halls and tribe-operated gaming casinos. Some of them indulge in illegal drugs and alcohol. TV on its own is an indulgence. If the habit of watching TV is important enough many of those folks would get whatever equipment they needed for the switch regardless of whether the government helped them or not. I think many are deliberately procrastinating because they smell a free hand out from Uncle Sam. If it weren't for the converter box program many of those people would already have gone to Wal-Mart and picked up the boxes with their own money.

Regarding the emergency broadcast issue, I really have to laugh at that one. Here in Oklahoma we get some really scary weather at times. The 10th anniversary of the May 3, 1999 tornado is approaching. That was the fastest, most powerful tornado ever recorded.

The thing that makes me laugh: _how is someone going to watch TV when a severe thunderstorm has knocked out their electricity?_ Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Here's what I use for receiving emergency weather information: a battery powered NOAA weather radio. If you live in Tornado Alley you're crazy if you don't own one. They're cheap and they work when your power has been knocked out by severe thunderstorms, ice storms or any other wild weather.


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## dennispap

Mark Holtz said:


> From New York Times:
> 
> *Digital TV Beckons, but Many Miss the Call *FULL ARTICLE HERE
> 
> *Analog TV Shutoff Still Likely to Be Delayed*FULL ARTICLE HERE


Evidently, Vesta Clemmons doesnt watch her tv or she would have seen 8 million psas, tv shows and crawls about the dtv switch.


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## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> From what I have read, the major difference between this bill and the last one passed by the Senate is that the word "voluntary" has been inserted here...


...thereby making it virtually meaningless and useless...


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## tcusta00

Bobby H said:


> I think this is one of the failures of the DTV campaign. They haven't put forth any messages to younger people to look after their parents, grandparents or other relatives who may not be prepared for the change.


If you watch TV (consciously) you've seen the messages, regardless of your age. If you see the message and don't understand it then you can pick up the phone and call a relative or friend for help.


----------



## harsh

Lord Vader said:


> From what I have read, the major difference between this bill and the last one passed by the Senate is that the word "voluntary" has been inserted here, thereby making the delay and/or switch voluntary for any and all stations involved.


It certainly doesn't seem like many stations will volunteer to pay at least 10%-90%* greater electricity bill than necessary to salvage a single digit percentage of their viewer base.

*electricity bill savings (noodling on my part) as follows:

1. If they are currently broadcasting on a VHF Low channel and plan to maintain a UHF digital channel, the power savings from turning off the analog channel will not be large, but it will be significant (10% or greater).

2. If they plan on moving a UHF digital down to their existing VHF channel, the savings will be great.

In my area, the ABC affiliate (KATU) carries their digital channel on channel 43 and their analog feed on channel 2. The ERP of the digital channel is 1MW and the analog channel is only 100KW. Moving back down to channel 2 for their only signal would save them big. Interestingly enough, they are going to stay at channel 43. The stations that are going VHF Low seem to be concentrated in the Great Lakes region.

The VHF High stations in my area broadcast at less than 1/3rd the power of the UHF stations.


----------



## harsh

tcusta00 said:


> If you see the message and don't understand it then you can pick up the phone and call a relative or friend for help.


You also have the option of calling the telephone number provided in the PSA as well as visiting the referenced website.


----------



## Bobby H

tcusta00 said:


> If you watch TV (consciously) you've seen the messages, regardless of your age. If you see the message and don't understand it then you can pick up the phone and call a relative or friend for help.


A lot of elderly people have stubborn pride and don't want to call younger relatives for help dealing with tasks such as getting prepared for an all-DTV broadcast situation. They don't want to be of any trouble to anyone or give the impression they cannot take care of themselves.

At least some of the commercials should speak to younger people already set for DTV to look in on other family members and friends to make sure they're also prepared. It's no different than checking on loved ones during a major heat wave or deadly cold snap to make sure they have air conditioning or heat.

[]

Basically, viewers at risk of losing their TV service due to the switch to all digital broadcasts need to be prepared to find other alternatives to government assistance if they want the problem solved quickly.

If those viewers choose to wait around for a government coupon to arrive in the mail they run a serious risk of not being able to watch TV for a number of days, weeks or even months. If the DTV campaign commercials were truly honest they would underscore this point regardless of the analog broadcast switch-off deadline.


----------



## James Long

Lord Vader said:


> From what I have read, the major difference between this bill and the last one passed by the Senate is that the word "voluntary" has been inserted here, thereby making the delay and/or switch voluntary for any and all stations involved.


Paragraph b from section 2 was moved to become section 3 paragraph a.
A paragraph was added to section 3:
(d) CONDITION OF MODIFICATIONS.-The amendments made by this section shall not take effect until the enactment of additional budget authority after the date of enactment of this Act to carry out the analog-to-digital converter box program under section 3005 of the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005.​
The "Public Safety Radio Services" section was modified to be less specific about which new services were allowed to start using freed up spectrum. (No change to rules affecting TV.)

Section 6 declaring a budget emergency was removed. The new paragraph in section 2 covers funding the changes to the coupon program.

There were NO changes to the paragraph referring to when TV stations can turn off their analog programming.


----------



## James Long

n3ntj said:


> After 2 years of telling EVERYONE of this switch on Feb 17th, imagine how confused some people will be if this delay happens...


People need to be reeducated.
"Good news! Wxxx has received permission to leave their analog signal on the air beyond the February 17th deadline!"​
As long as they don't give up the core message of YOU NEED A CONVERTER BOX for other channels and for when "Wxxx" does leave the air it should work. Fortunately there are enough stations who will not take advantage of the extension that people will be "encouraged" to get their converter boxes.

When 30% (so far) of the nation's analog TV stations go dark by/on February 18th it will attract the attention needed to send a get-r-done message.


----------



## tcusta00

Bobby H said:


> A lot of elderly people have stubborn pride and don't want to call younger relatives for help dealing with tasks such as getting prepared for an all-DTV broadcast situation. They don't want to be of any trouble to anyone or give the impression they cannot take care of themselves.
> 
> At least some of the commercials should speak to younger people already set for DTV to look in on other family members and friends to make sure they're also prepared. It's no different than checking on loved ones during a major heat wave or deadly cold snap to make sure they have air conditioning or heat.


IIRC, there _were _commercials with this reminder for younger folks to look after their elders.

People that truly care about their elderly family members shouldn't need a TV commercial as a reminder... The government, IMHO, has handled this program just fine, right up to the part where they extended the deadline. Really, if you're that stubborn where you don't have the "pride" to ask for help then you deserve to be without TV, sorry. This is nothing like a heatwave/coldwave where it's a matter of life or death. It's TV. We've been beaten over the head about it for long enough.


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## leww37334

I have another brainstorm, All network stations shut off their analog signal, except PBS who will provide any emergency notifications that are required.

Maybe after enough boring PBS stuff day in and day out, people will break down and spend the $50 bucks (or less for the box.


----------



## joblo

James Long said:


> Paragraph b from section 2 was moved to become section 3 paragraph a.
> A paragraph was added to section 3:
> (d) CONDITION OF MODIFICATIONS.-The amendments made by this section shall not take effect until the enactment of additional budget authority after the date of enactment of this Act to carry out the analog-to-digital converter box program under section 3005 of the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005.​&#8230;
> Section 6 declaring a budget emergency was removed. The new paragraph in section 2 covers funding the changes to the coupon program.
> &#8230;


I assume you mean "_new paragraph in section *3*_",and the irony is that it actually does *NOT* fund the coupon program at all, but leaves that up to additional legislation, perhaps the stimulus package or perhaps one of the myriad coupon bills that have been pushed aside for consideration of the date delay. Without that "_additional budget authority_", this bill simply delays the date while leaving the coupon program as broken and broke as ever.

As for the removal of section 6, that makes it more difficult - but probably not impossible - for the President to issue some sort of emergency executive order mandating a moratorium on analog shutdowns pending issuance of new FCC regs. Not saying the President would try anything like that necessarily, but I do think people are taking too much for granted in assuming that all these stations that say they are going to transition regardless will actually follow through. Depending on how big a media splash this thing makes when it's actually signed, and depending on how serious the President is about wanting analog service to continue, there could be considerable pressure from various quarters to continue analog, even though there is no actual requirement to do so.

I don't think we can reliably predict today, pre-passage of the Delay Act, what the climate around this issue will be once the bill is actually signed by the President. Right now this issue has a fairly low profile in the mainstream press, and if there is major economic news or a Middle East flare-up on the day it's signed, it may continue to attract little or no attention. But if, otoh, the bill gets signed on a slow news day.......


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## robert koerner

Huuuum.

I seem to remember it was Congress that decided to make analog TVs incapable of receiving OTA TV signals.

So, the ill conceived deal was that Congress would distribute enough coupons for people to buy converter boxes that enable them to use their present TVs instead of having to buy new TVs. Congress underestimated the need for coupons.

Instead of regional implementation of abandoning analog broadcasts, they went with nationwide.

The net result, gov runs out of coupons, people's TVs will no longer work.

Yup.

Complain about the people who didn't get coupons. It's their own fault gov implement a poorly planed transition and under estimated how many people still watch analog TV.

Bob


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## Tom Robertson

Lord Vader said:


> From what I have read, the major difference between this bill and the last one passed by the Senate is that the word "voluntary" has been inserted here, thereby making the delay and/or switch voluntary for any and all stations involved.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...thereby making it virtually meaningless and useless...


Actually the biggest difference between the two bills is the funding for coupons. In the earlier bill, the coupon program was modified having an effect on appropriations and budgets. That bill did not (nor could not) have an appropriation (which has to start in the House), so was not a "Pay as You Go."

House rules require pay as you go, so the House had to suspend the rules for two reasons: 1) super fast track and 2) suspend the pay as you go rule (the bigger hurdle.)

So the new bill has a clause added that the section on modifying coupons would not take effect until a separate funding bill was passed.

Thus the new bill can be passed in the House by being hand carried thru the Rules committee to the floor. Not a fast track, but close.

Then the House can read the bill (twice?), debate, and potentially amend..., and vote on simple majority.

By the way, the voluntary clarification clause was what was added between the time the bill was almost introduced, withdrawn and the first bill actually being introduced and passed.

Cheers,
Tom


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## roadrunner1782

*STUPID!!* That's all I have to say on this situation anymore!!


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## James Long

joblo said:


> As for the removal of section 6, that makes it more difficult - but probably not impossible - for the President to issue some sort of emergency executive order mandating a moratorium on analog shutdowns pending issuance of new FCC regs. Not saying the President would try anything like that necessarily, but I do think people are taking too much for granted in assuming that all these stations that say they are going to transition regardless will actually follow through.


Well that is a nice piece of fear, uncertainty and doubt to throw out there!

The law will specifically allows the disabling of analog as permitted by FCC rules. All 1800+ stations have been given the RIGHT to shut down their signals by or before February 18th. There are stations already off the air, stations planning on going off Sunday night after the Superbowl and by February 18th 30% of all stations will be digital only. If the President mandates that any stations remain on the air it won't be a one day news event. It will be a major mistake of his presidency. Pres Obama will be signing a bill specifically ALLOWING stations to turn off their stations before June 12th. To follow it with a moratorium on analog shutdowns would be illogical.

He can urge all he likes, but a mandate preventing stations from using their legal right to discontinue analog service would show total disrespect for business and for the political process that is leading to the law. It would not be on his desk without the permissive shutoff of analog. A mandate probably wouldn't hold up in court. Pres Obama can's selectively veto parts of bills that he signs.

Please - put the thought out of your mind and let's get back to reality.


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## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> Thus the new bill can be passed in the House by being hand carried thru the Rules committee to the floor. Not a fast track, but close.


It is complicated ... probably easier to watch happen than explain ... but yes, Rules committee action is needed to get this to the floor and voted on without much further delay.



> Then the House can read the bill (twice?), debate, and potentially amend..., and vote on simple majority.


Yes. Any amendments would be sent back to the Senate for their approval.



> By the way, the voluntary clarification clause was what was added between the time the bill was almost introduced, withdrawn and the first bill actually being introduced and passed.


The difference between S.328 as introduced in the senate and S.328 as engrossed (passed) by the senate. It took a few days for S.328 is to appear on the GPO website but it is now there.

The original bill changed the dates of required shutdown of analog and the end of the coupon program and declared a budget emergency. The buildout extensions for the 700MHz services waiting for the spectrum was missing along with the clarification that stations COULD permissively end analog.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Thanks for the details, James.


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## James Long

One of the good folks at AVSForums, Falcon_77, is following the stations and their filings. Of the 1800 or so TV stations affected:

* 316: to end analog operations early
* 198: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)
* 226: to end analog operations on 2/17/09, even if the transition is delayed (not included above)
* 542: to end analog operations on or before 2/17/09, regardless of a delay


----------



## scooper

James Long said:


> One of the good folks at AVSForums, Falcon_77, is following the stations and their filings. Of the 1800 or so TV stations affected:
> 
> * 316: to end analog operations early
> * 198: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)
> * 226: to end analog operations on 2/17/09, even if the transition is delayed (not included above)
> * 542: to end analog operations on or before 2/17/09, regardless of a delay


And he thinks this is only the tip of the iceberg... - That's approximately 30% so far.

I'm beginning to think if you're not in a top 35 or 40 market, don't be surprised if the stations go for it by Feb 18 regardless. And some of them might, depending on circumstances.


----------



## fluffybear

scooper said:


> And he thinks this is only the tip of the iceberg... - That's approximately 30% so far.
> 
> I'm beginning to think if you're not in a top 35 or 40 market, don't be surprised if the stations go for it by Feb 18 regardless. And some of them might, depending on circumstances.


That would be something else interesting to know.

Where do we stand in regards to say the Top 50 markets.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

The government should just stop trying to delay DTV transition. Local television stations are still advertising "days left" and counting. Today is 16 days to go and counting. They need to leave it be otherwise there'll be total confusions. If they're really pushing it, then they should have notified ALL television stations to stop advertising "16 days left". LEAVE IT BE! KEEP THE TRANSITION DATE SET AT 2/17/2009!!!


----------



## xIsamuTM

This has been in the works for god knows how long, if people (old, poor, or let's just call them what they are, dumb) either do not have a digital tv, converter, or a paid service, why make the rest of the US suffer? It's like the people in ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha crying about having their home planet destroyed. (yeah, I know I made this joke before, but I think it's still true.)


----------



## Msguy

The Government is wasting money holding these sessions to delay the Digital Switchover. The Switchover should be kept at February 17th. Citizens everywhere have had plenty of time to either A) get their act together and purchase a new digital television with a digital tuner. B) go out and purchase a digital tuner box. This is ridiculous and the Switchover should not be delayed beyond February 17, 2009. Adds for this switchover date have been running for more than 2 years in my market and I know i have seen the adds on national channels.


----------



## Link

This is beyond ridiculous to delay a switch that is a few weeks away. Can't stations just go ahead and shut off their analog signals as planned? I read some have done it early anyway. I don't think some will want to keep them operating any longer and some are switching from their temporary assignment back to their original VHF channel and have already made the technical changes needed.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

Bobby H said:


> While acknowledging certain low income and elderly TV viewers are not ready for the end of analog broadcasts, why does all of the burden of getting their TV setups up to speed automatically rest on the shoulders of the government?......


Those that are without a TV signal, on whatever transition date is decided upon, will do the following:

1.-Call the TV station to complain and the TV station will politely inform them of the converter box details.

2. Call someone who can help them buy the converter box and get it installed...OR they will call a cable or satellite company and arrange for installation.

3. They will have this done within 72 hours (possibly sooner) and be waching television again, like nothing ever happened!


----------



## James Long

HDTVFreak07 said:


> If they're really pushing it, then they should have notified ALL television stations to stop advertising "16 days left".


Until President Obama signs a bill into law the transition date IS 2/17/2009. While it is obvious to most onlookers that the national analog cutoff date will change there is no guarantee that it will change. Plus station reaction is unknown. It seems most stations are waiting for there to be a change in the law and to see what the FCC reaction is before they announce that their February 17th shutoff plans have not changed.


----------



## Tom Robertson

A wise man once said (via PM  ) "I bet all the Nielsen families have already switched." Meaning stations won't get fewer registered watchers anyway. 

Which is a very interesting point.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## James Long

xIsamuTM said:


> This has been in the works for god knows how long, if people (old, poor, or let's just call them what they are, dumb) either do not have a digital tv, converter, or a paid service, why make the rest of the US suffer? It's like the people in ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha crying about having their home planet destroyed. (yeah, I know I made this joke before, but I think it's still true.)


It would be better to stay away from the name calling ... there are many reasons to be unprepared.

As for suffering? There are a few people who will not be getting "HD" until conversion because their local station cannot complete their full power digital construction until analog is disabled. Compare that against the suffering of people who will not get any signal at all. Is one person's "need" for HD so important that another person's availability of SD should be cut off?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

James Long said:


> It would be better to stay away from the name calling ... there are many reasons to be unprepared.
> 
> As for suffering? There are a few people who will not be getting "HD" until conversion because their local station cannot complete their full power digital construction until analog is disabled. Compare that against the suffering of people who will not get any signal at all. Is one person's "need" for HD so important that another person's availability of SD should be cut off?


HD? We're talking DIGITAL here. Digital is not always HD but HD is always digital.


----------



## dorfd1

HDTVFreak07 said:


> HD? We're talking DIGITAL here. Digital is not always HD but HD is always digital.


component video hd is analog?


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## James Long

HDTVFreak07 said:


> HD? We're talking DIGITAL here. Digital is not always HD but HD is always digital.


From the perspective of suffering ... people CAN get their channels in SD via analog. The only suffering would be the lack of a HD signal (and perhaps alternate feed SD channels on some stations).

Yes, I know DigitalTV is more than just HD. Try not to have a knee-jerk reaction to the mention of HD? Read in context!


----------



## Mark Holtz

According to this article from WBUR:
WUNI (Boston) analog transmitter is almost gone. One of the analog transmitter tubes can "go out any day", and a replacement costs $35-45,000. That is the cost of one staffer in a station where money is right. They had planned on scrapping the transmitter on February 17th.
Also, the cost of running the analog transmitter is $10,000 per month. 
For WGBH, the cost of running the analog transmitter until June will cost "six figures", and they had to let go of 12 people in January for budget reasons.


----------



## GaryPotter

So I have a question. Does anyone know what the stations in Boston and Providence, RI are going to do if this thing passes? Will they all convert? Will they wait? Will some of them go?

I'm only asking because I have a grandmother who get OTA from both markets and I want to know what to do to help her.


----------



## tcusta00

GaryPotter said:


> So I have a question. Does anyone know what the stations in Boston and Providence, RI are going to do if this thing passes? Will they all convert? Will they wait? Will some of them go?
> 
> I'm only asking because I have a grandmother who get OTA from both markets and* I want to know what to do to help her.*


Get her a converter box.


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## Tom Robertson

Basically, hurry and get her converter(s). It is the safest thing. Any combination of things could happen and I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the stations she watches is doing to switch on the 17th regardless of possible law change.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## James Long

tcusta00 said:


> Get her a converter box.


Agreed. Regardless of when the stations turn off their analog signals she needs a box. Might as well get-r-done before she loses channels.


----------



## scooper

GaryPotter said:


> So I have a question. Does anyone know what the stations in Boston and Providence, RI are going to do if this thing passes? Will they all convert? Will they wait? Will some of them go?
> 
> I'm only asking because I have a grandmother who get OTA from both markets and I want to know what to do to help her.


+1 - Get her a converter box - she will need one whether the stations shutoff analog on Feb17, or if they wait until June 12. Do the right thing and get her setup ASAP. Then she'll be ready no matter when it happens. Also show her how to scan for channels - she may need to do that a couple times, also show her how to add new channels.


----------



## harsh

Since much hinges on an as yet unannounced coupon infusion measure that will be subject to all the spending rules, does this measure really have any teeth?


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> Since much hinges on an as yet unannounced coupon infusion measure that will be subject to all the spending rules, does this measure really have any teeth?


It will change the rules of the coupon program, allowing for reissues of expired coupons and issuing coupons until July 31st instead of March 31st. S.352 doesn't FUND new coupons, but once the funding is available (via expired coupons or additional funding in the "stimulus" bill) those rules will be useful.

It also allows stations to leave their analog signals on until June 12th, which doesn't require funding.


----------



## samhevener

This story appeared on the front page of yesterday's Cleveland Plain Dealer business section http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2009/02/scott_shawthe_plain_dealer_ben.html


----------



## Mark Holtz

Sacramento Bee reports that the Sacramento stations are analyzing the situation. KVIE's manager, however, stated "We're going to try to keep our analog broadcast as long as possible."


----------



## loudo

samhevener said:


> This story appeared on the front page of yesterday's Cleveland Plain Dealer business section http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2009/02/scott_shawthe_plain_dealer_ben.html


Many times all you need to do is readjust the antenna/rabbit ears. This story never mentions any things that were tried to improve the picture. Last week I help an elderly couple, on our neighborhood, convert their analog TVs to digital with converter boxes. They have no cable and only watch a few programs off local TV, with the use of an antenna in their attic. After I got the converter boxes hooked up, it looked like the pictures in that story. After going into the attic and adjusting the antenna the picture cleared up and get everything just fine.

My point is, many people think all you have to do is hook up the boxes and the picture will be perfect. They have received analog video with the antenna/rabbit ears in that position for years and don't realize they need to be adjusted for the digital signal.

The story would have been of a lot more value, if some information about adjust the antenna was in the story, but I guess it would have taken away from the writers point of trying to make it look like the boxes don't work good.


----------



## xIsamuTM

One thing I'm not clear on. the transition date is when they _have_ to shut of their analog feeds. Do they really have to keep broadcasting until then, or can they shut of analog whenever they wish?


----------



## snowcat

xIsamuTM said:


> One thing I'm not clear on. the transition date is when they _have_ to shut of their analog feeds. Do they really have to keep broadcasting until then, or can they shut of analog whenever they wish?


They can shut off their analog signals at any time as long as they get permission from the government. It looks like a whole lot of stations will do this on the 17th no matter what happens in Congress.


----------



## ub1934

samhevener said:


> This story appeared on the front page of yesterday's Cleveland Plain Dealer business section http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2009/02/scott_shawthe_plain_dealer_ben.html


* WABD Ch 5 NYC , remember when it went full time with Man On The Street interviews at 12 noon shot from the window at 515 Madison Ave & 53 St & Ted Steel & 12:30 playing the piano *


----------



## msmith

A little bird told me that if the delay passes the local PBS in Philly will probably wait until one of the big networks switches and then switch the same day, in order to piggy-back on the publicity. This would likely be before June.

This PBS station would lose $20M if forced to delay until June.


----------



## James Long

snowcat said:


> They can shut off their analog signals at any time as long as they get permission from the government. It looks like a whole lot of stations will do this on the 17th no matter what happens in Congress.


No explicit permission is needed for any shutoffs since November 19th. Only 30 days of notification of viewers and the FCC is required. Stations have been notifying their viewers of the February 17th date under the rules (or whatever date they chose before that - some stations went dark last night after the Superbowl). In most cases analog can easily be shut down on February 17th.


----------



## phox_mulder

GaryPotter said:


> So I have a question. Does anyone know what the stations in Boston and Providence, RI are going to do if this thing passes? Will they all convert? Will they wait? Will some of them go?
> 
> I'm only asking because I have a grandmother who get OTA from both markets and I want to know what to do to help her.


I know one station in Providence that already shut off, last year in fact.

Grandmas probably don't watch much CW programming though.

That market is so saturated with signals coming from all directions, I'd be tempted to tell her get cable.

phox


----------



## phox_mulder

Yet another media outlet adding to the confusion.

Local paper's TV Critic needs to be slapped up side the head.

Headline reads *TV: Digital switch more confusing than ever*

At the bottom of the column he adds:



> » Also, be prepared to buy a new $30 to $80 digital antenna to increase reception.


http://www.sltrib.com/columnists/ci_11609422

If you are still using an Analog TV in Utah, you already have an antenna capable of getting Digital TV.

phox


----------



## n3ntj

Yeah, a "digital antenna". That will add more confusion to the mix.


----------



## robmadden1

A email I got:

Dear Mr. Madden,

There is a possibility that WDTN and all other stations in the Dayton market may cease analog operations on February 17th but it is not for sure as of today.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Lisa Barhorst
VP & General Manager


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> It will change the rules of the coupon program, allowing for reissues of expired coupons and issuing coupons until July 31st instead of March 31st.


Setting up a scenario where coupon funding could be enhanced and extended doesn't in and of itself make anything happen. My understanding was that the NTIA was already issuing new coupons to new applicants (because those who applied for coupons that allowed them to expire are not eligible) on expiration of old coupons.


> It also allows stations to leave their analog signals on until June 12th, which doesn't require funding.


Again, allowing doesn't facilitate much. I liken it to a measure that would allow me to eat tofu.

The polls of the stations suggest that they're not much concerned with the outcome of the bill either. Many will go _off_ as if nothing had happened.


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> Setting up a scenario where coupon funding could be enhanced and extended doesn't in and of itself make anything happen. My understanding was that the NTIA was already issuing new coupons to new applicants (because those who applied for coupons that allowed them to expire are not eligible) on expiration of old coupons.


The change you're overlooking is the ability to REISSUE expired coupons to those who let their coupons expire. Not just passing them on to the next person. That is what S.352 does. Funding doesn't change the rules, S.352 does.

Funding itself doesn't extend the program beyond March 31st either. Congress could give the coupon program 100 billion dollars and it would not allow the NTIA to issue a single coupon after March 31st. S.352 takes care of that.



> The polls of the stations suggest that they're not much concerned with the outcome of the bill either. Many will go _off_ as if nothing had happened.


Yep. The stations have their plans and I expect very few will take advantage of the extension. IMHO: Less than half ... probably less than a quarter of the 1800 stations will be on the air in analog after February 17th.


----------



## scooper

James Long said:


> Yep. The stations have their plans and I expect very few will take advantage of the extension. IMHO: Less than half ... probably less than a quarter of the 1800 stations will be on the air in analog after February 17th.


Yep - and most of those will be in larger markets, I'd expect.


----------



## Tom Robertson

phox_mulder said:


> Yet another media outlet adding to the confusion.
> 
> Local paper's TV Critic needs to be slapped up side the head.
> 
> Headline reads *TV: Digital switch more confusing than ever*
> 
> At the bottom of the column he adds:
> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/columnists/ci_11609422
> 
> If you are still using an Analog TV in Utah, you already have an antenna capable of getting Digital TV.
> 
> phox


You might recognize my handiwork in my comment to that article.


----------



## bobcamp1

Guys, the list is here:

http://www.rabbitears.info/termlist.php


----------



## scooper

samhevener said:


> This story appeared on the front page of yesterday's Cleveland Plain Dealer business section http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2009/02/scott_shawthe_plain_dealer_ben.html


Sam - if we put out a little effort to find them, I would imagine that every single one of us can find similar articles in our own local news websites. Unfortunately - it's going to happen. This is the type of problem that is best dealt with by a one - on - one community outreach, in my opinion.


----------



## Tom Robertson

scooper said:


> Sam - if we put out a little effort to find them, I would imagine that every single one of us can find similar articles in our own local news websites. Unfortunately - it's going to happen. This is the type of problem that is best dealt with by a one - on - one community outreach, in my opinion.


Well said. Helping people strikes me as the best way.


----------



## phox_mulder

Tom Robertson said:


> You might recognize my handiwork in my comment to that article.


I tried to give you a thumbs up, but you have to be logged in to do so.

phox


----------



## Tom Robertson

phox_mulder said:


> I tried to give you a thumbs up, but you have to be logged in to do so.
> 
> phox


Here works just fine.


----------



## Herdfan

Well.... I was in my local RatShack today to get a cheap calculator and there was a guy in his mid 30's buying a DTV converter box. He was asking whether or not his DishNetwork remote would be able to control it to which the employee had no idea.

I could not stand idly by so I asked if he had DISH, why did he need the converter? (I realize there could be valid reasons, but him wanting to use his DISH remote to control pretty much eliminated most of them). He replied simply he did not want to lose his local channels. So I asked him if he was receiving them from DISH and he said he was, so I asked if he was going to use the box on a different TV and he said no. 

I explained that if he was getting his locals via DISH, he did not need the converter box. He looked truly confused. I did my best to explain that since he had DISH, that they already taken care of the transition on their end and he would continue to receive his locals.

Finally the guy at RS agreed that he did not need the box so he left without probably still confused.

No wonder this transition is going to be a cluster as the public education has been horrible.


----------



## loudo

Herdfan said:


> Well.... I was in my local RatShack today to get a cheap calculator and there was a guy in his mid 30's buying a DTV converter box. He was asking whether or not his DishNetwork remote would be able to control it to which the employee had no idea.
> 
> I could not stand idly by so I asked if he had DISH, why did he need the converter? (I realize there could be valid reasons, but him wanting to use his DISH remote to control pretty much eliminated most of them). He replied simply he did not want to lose his local channels. So I asked him if he was receiving them from DISH and he said he was, so I asked if he was going to use the box on a different TV and he said no.
> 
> I explained that if he was getting his locals via DISH, he did not need the converter box. He looked truly confused. I did my best to explain that since he had DISH, that they already taken care of the transition on their end and he would continue to receive his locals.
> 
> Finally the guy at RS agreed that he did not need the box so he left without probably still confused.
> 
> No wonder this transition is going to be a cluster as the public education has been horrible.


I wonder what part of "If you receive your local stations over an antenna, you need a converter, if you have satellite or cable you will be fine and not need one", that guy didn't understand. Every ad TV and newspaper I have seen specifically states that. You sometimes wonder if people really listen to what they are watching or interpret what they are reading.

You did your good deed for the day and saved the guy some bucks. Nice go, kind of makes you feel good when you can help some one out.


----------



## Mark Holtz

Just in case it has slipped everyone's minds...

From New York Times:

*House Will Try Again to Delay Digital TV Transition*


> Remember that dreary day in social studies when the topic was "How a bill becomes law?" Congress is trying to reenact all those steps - in what in Washington considers rapid time - to make sure that no one is denied their beloved television shows.


FULL ARTICLE HERE

Meanwhile, from a e-mail I received from Diane Feinstein:


> Dear Mr. Holtz:
> 
> Thank you for writing to me regarding the transition to digital television. I appreciate hearing from you.
> 
> As a new technology, digital television enhances television picture and sound quality and, more importantly, it uses our limited airwaves more efficiently. It does this by allowing several channels to be broadcast on what one analog channel uses today, freeing up valuable airwaves for other services.
> 
> While there are several benefits in transitioning from analog to digital television, as we do so, we must balance those advancements with any expense that may be passed down to the consumers. Please know that as the Senate reviews and considers legislation regarding the transition to digital television, I will be sure to keep your views and concerns in mind.
> 
> Once again, thank you for writing me. If I can be of further assistance, or if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact my Washington, D.C. staff


No response from Boxer.


----------



## James Long

Senator Lugar replied to my email via postal mail (sent Jan 28th before the house rejected S.328):


> Thank you for contacting me regarding the delay of the scheduled transition date from analog to digital-only television broadcasting. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me on this matter.
> 
> On January 26, 2009, the Senate passed a bill to postpone the official transition date until June 12, 2009. However, this legislation will permit television stations to end their analog broadcasts prior to the June 12th deadline. Once the analog spectrum is vacated by television stations, first responders and wireless provides may begin to utilize the spectrum.
> 
> The legislation also permits consumers with expired National Telecommunications and Information Administration coupons for digital converter boxes to reapply for additional coupons. The expiration date for vouchers will be extended until September 15, 2009.
> 
> The digital conversion will free up high-value analogue spectrum, which will be reserved for public safety communications and the advancement of wireless internet.
> 
> Again, thank you for contacting me.


No reply from Senator Bayh (or my Representative). I think Lugar gets it and trust that he and senators that agree with him will make sure stations continue to have the right to end their analog broadcasts on their own schedule prior to the deadline.

BTW: S.352 is scheduled to be on the house floor Wednesday for a vote.

Congressmen Barton and Stearns have written a letter to FCC Acting Chairman Copps requesting a count and list of all stations eligible to turn off their analog stations before June 12th. In the absence of a count and list they would like a percentage estimate of stations that would be able to transition. Apparently Congressmen Barton and Stearns believe few stations are eligible for early termination of analog. Based on the hundreds of filings I'd say the industry disagrees. 

EVERY full power station in my market has either already turned off their analog or has filed clarifying that they WILL turn off analog by the end of day February 17th. My market is going digital on time. May yours do the same!


----------



## harsh

Herdfan said:


> No wonder this transition is going to be a cluster as the public education has been horrible.


If you don't read your bills and never visit the website...

I had a similar experience with a co-worker that is on a small fry local cable system. The provider made the unfortunate mistake of sending out a notice recently that subscribers were going to need a digital converter to get some of the channels that were currently analog. They even made reference to a coupon program!


----------



## jpl

harsh said:


> If you don't read your bills and never visit the website...
> 
> I had a similar experience with a co-worker that is on a small fry local cable system. The provider made the unfortunate mistake of sending out a notice recently that subscribers were going to need a digital converter to get some of the channels that were currently analog. They even made reference to a coupon program!


That's just surreal. I understand that this whole thing may be confusing to many in the general public, but come on... how is it possible that the cable operator gets this so wrong? I know that some cable companies were taking advantage of the analog shut-off, using it as an excuse to migrate analogs to their digital tier, and telling their customers that they needed a cable box to get that channel again - all well and good, but then they blamed it on the OTA shut-off. The FCC asked these companies to knock that nonsense off, and they agreed to hold off on any more such change-overs for any other channels until after 2/17.

Then there were some cable companies that were required to shut off analogs by the 17th. Verizon is case in point. That was due to the fact that these companies requested, and received, a temporary waiver for the FCC separable security requirement with cable boxes (as a condition of that waiver, these small cable companies were required to shut down all analogs by 2/17 as well). All of that just adds to the confusion.

Like I said, I know that this stuff isn't easy for a lot of people out there, but is it really THAT hard to grasp this? I mean, when people went to cable TV, they had no issue understanding that they didn't need an antenna anymore. I also can't blame the FCC on this one - they've said specifically, and repeatedly, if you have cable or satellite you don't have to do anything. If you get any channels over your antenna, you may. Is that really that hard to understand? You don't have to know the mechanics of all this (although understanding the VHF vs. UHF thing helps) - you don't have to know what your cable company is going to do to get you your locals after the 17th, e.g.


----------



## CopyChief

Of course most folks on this site are going to get it. But there are people who really don't, and for some reason the information campaign isn't reaching them. Thing is, it's not going to in four months, either.

I helped my in-laws set up their new, digital HDTV. They love it. They get all of their TV OTA -- no cable, no satellite. And every station comes in just fine with their roof antenna they've been using for years.

But they called me in a panic a couple of weeks ago, asking if they were going to need a converter box. And these are otherwise smart people. My FIL was a science teacher, my MIL a nurse. 

People don't know what "digital" means because that word has lost all of its meaning in our culture. Watches have digital displays, CDs have digital sound... there's HD radio (which is digital but doesn't have anything to do with "high definition"), but not all digital TV is HD. A few years ago some TVs touted a "digital tuner" but they didn't mean digital as in ATSC. No wonder this has been a confounding switch, aside from the fact that they only started this blitz a few months ago.

Seriously, we needed some more words to describe things here, words people could have understood and remembered. But it's too late.

Let's move on with the switch. Delaying it more would confuse people even more. (I thought it was Feb. 17th -- oh, did you mean the digital version of Feb. 17th? Is that different? What, I need a new calendar now, too?)


----------



## jpl

CopyChief said:


> Of course most folks on this site are going to get it. But there are people who really don't, and for some reason the information campaign isn't reaching them. Thing is, it's not going to in four months, either.
> 
> I helped my in-laws set up their new, digital HDTV. They love it. They get all of their TV OTA -- no cable, no satellite. And every station comes in just fine with their roof antenna they've been using for years.
> 
> But they called me in a panic a couple of weeks ago, asking if they were going to need a converter box. And these are otherwise smart people. My FIL was a science teacher, my MIL a nurse.
> 
> People don't know what "digital" means because that word has lost all of its meaning in our culture. Watches have digital displays, CDs have digital sound... there's HD radio (which is digital but doesn't have anything to do with "high definition"), but not all digital TV is HD. A few years ago some TVs touted a "digital tuner" but they didn't mean digital as in ATSC. No wonder this has been a confounding switch, aside from the fact that they only started this blitz a few months ago.
> 
> Seriously, we needed some more words to describe things here, words people could have understood and remembered. But it's too late.
> 
> Let's move on with the switch. Delaying it more would confuse people even more. (I thought it was Feb. 17th -- oh, did you mean the digital version of Feb. 17th? Is that different? What, I need a new calendar now, too?)


The thing is, your in-laws' question is understandable because they're getting their programming over the air. But if you have cable, and you're told 15,000 times that if you have cable you don't have to change anything, and then you ask if you need to get a converter box anyway... that's what has me shaking my head. Your in-laws are getting their programming over the air and just want to make sure they're prepared.

What Harsh posted really makes me shake my head - when a cable operator gets it that wrong, that's really bad. It's their business for crying out loud.

I do agree that all the crossing of terms - digital vs. analog - makes things confusing. One concern that I have goes to that post about the guy who had a dish who was buying a converter box anyway (forgot who posted it). What would have happened if the guy took the box home? How would he have hooked it up to his DBS service? Can you imagine if the guy had HD service at home, hooked up the cable box output to the input of the converter box, and no longer got HD because the box was down-converting it? I think you're going to see more than your fair share of those types of issues - people messing up their perfectly good configurations because they're not paying attention to the ads. That's really what something like that comes down to. How can you possibly hear all those times that if you have a satellite dish, and if you're getting all your channels from the satellite dish, that you're ok, and still think you need to go out and buy a converter, unless you're just not paying attention to the PSAs.


----------



## lwilli201

Two Kansas City big 4 have applied to turn off analoge on Feb 17. WDAF (Fox) has been approved. KCTV (CBS) has applied for turn off on Feb 17. No record of request from KMBC (ABC) or KSHB (NBC), or at least that I can find.


----------



## James Long

When the site isn't overloaded by demand you can see a nice summary here:
http://www.rabbitears.info/termlist.php

Kansas City: WDAF, KCTV, KSMO all terminating on 2/17


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## scooper

James Long said:


> When the site isn't overloaded by demand you can see a nice summary here:
> http://www.rabbitears.info/termlist.php
> 
> Kansas City: WDAF, KCTV, KSMO all terminating on 2/17


Trip is getting hit hard - fortunately, most of the stuff on his website is NOT graphical and thus downloads quickly.


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## Tom Robertson

The House Rules Committee has created a Rule, sending the DTV Delay Act as passed by the Senate to the House Floor:


> H.RES 108
> [Report No. 111-11]
> 
> S. 352 - DTV Delay Act
> 1. Closed rule.
> 
> 2. Provides one hour of debate equally divided and controlled by the chair and ranking minority member of the C ommittee on E nergy and C ommerce.
> 
> 3. Waives all points of order against consideration of the bill except those arising under clause 10 of rule XXI.
> 
> 4. Provides that the bill shall be considered as read.
> 
> 5. Waives all points of order against the bill.
> 
> 6. Provides one motion to commit with or without instructions.
> 
> 7. Amends section 2 of H. Res. 92 to provide that the chair of the Committee on Appropriations shall insert in the Congressional Record no later than February 26, 2009, such material as he may deem explanatory of appropriations measures for fiscal year 2009.


This means that under this rule, the bill cannot be amended (closed Rule).
Only a single (simple majority) vote (Items #4, #6)

http://www.rules.house.gov/SpecialRules_details.aspx?NewsID=4140


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## robmadden1

Does this mean the transiotn is going to be delayed tomorrow?


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## Tom Robertson

robmadden1 said:


> Does this mean the transiotn is going to be delayed tomorrow?


Most likely the House will pass the bill tomorrow. Then it depends on how quickly President Obama signs the bill, as expected. I'm guessing tomorrow or Thursday.

All that said, many stations will switch on schedule anyway. For instance, current expectations are all the Salt Lake stations will go by the end of the 17th. (One is scheduled to go on the night of the 15th.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## robmadden1

Thanks for letting me know Tom. I'll be watching this on CSPAN.


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## hdtvfan0001

robmadden1 said:


> Thanks for letting me know Tom. I'll be watching this on CSPAN.


In analog...? :lol:


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## SParker

Bill is about to be discussed.


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## Tom Robertson

First the 1 minute speeches.

Edit: and H Res. 107 about HR 2 (State Children's Health Insurance Program). So it will likely be an hour before DTV Delay is brought up.


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## joblo

Tom Robertson said:


> Most likely the House will pass the bill tomorrow. Then it depends on how quickly President Obama signs the bill, as expected. I'm guessing tomorrow or Thursday.
> 
> All that said, many stations will switch on schedule anyway.


I think that's still unclear.

To begin with, there are two possible interpretations of the early termination provision in the Delay Act, which incorporates certain FCC procedures by reference.

The first interpretation, favored by those hoping for mass conversion on the 17th, is that the law effectively establishes a 206-day window from November 19, 2008 through June 11, 2009, during which stations can transition under expedited FCC procedures, provided that they give viewers 30 days notice; and that notice previously given for the general Feb. 17th shutdown meets that 30 day requirement, so therefore any station that wants to do so can turn off analog on the 17th as planned.

The second interpretation would be that the law effectively requires the FCC to establish new 90-day and 30-day windows tied to June 12, just as they previously did with Feb. 17, and thus stations could not use the FCC's expedited procedures until March 14 and May 13, respectively. Additionally, one could argue that viewers could not be expected to distinguish the particular notices of any given station planning to transition Feb. 17 from the general notice surrounding that date, and so therefore a new 30 day period of notices is required after the law is passed.

But let's assume that the first interpretation prevails, and the FCC issues regulations allowing stations to transition on the 17th as planned. That doesn't necessarily mean they will, despite what they may be saying now.

That's because, all the Congress bashing in this and other online forums notwithstanding, this is a Presidential initiative, not a Congressional one.

As things now stand, the President cannot ask stations to continue broadcasting analog past February 17th, because it's illegal. As soon as he signs this bill - if he gets that chance, which is still not guaranteed - he can. Whether he will do that or not, and whether those requests will be public or private, is yet to be seen.

Don't be surprised if a lot of stations end up continuing analog despite their current FCC filings. Note that this administration is less than 30 days old; it will be around for at least four years, maybe eight. If the President asks broadcasters to continue analog for four more months, station owners, not engineers, will make the decision, and it will be based on longer-term interests than just four months of transmitter costs.


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## Tom Robertson

<Moderator Reminder>

Please be very, very careful with discussions of politics and political commentary.

Government actions can be discussed if they pertain to DBS or, in this case, TV.

Thank you,
Tom


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## SParker

Did they vote already on this?


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## Tom Robertson

No. The House is working the SCHIP bill right now. Another hour of debate before the SCHIP amendment is voted upon. (I think.)

Then there will be an hour of debate on the DTV delay act. (Unless there is a recess for lunch or such.)

So it will be awhile.

As soon as one of us gets the word, we'll close this thread and open a new one to follow the next step. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

joblo said:


> I think that's still unclear.
> 
> To begin with, there are two possible interpretations of the early termination provision in the Delay Act, which incorporates certain FCC procedures by reference.
> 
> The first interpretation, favored by those hoping for mass conversion on the 17th, is that the law effectively establishes a 206-day window from November 19, 2008 through June 11, 2009, during which stations can transition under expedited FCC procedures, provided that they give viewers 30 days notice; and that notice previously given for the general Feb. 17th shutdown meets that 30 day requirement, so therefore any station that wants to do so can turn off analog on the 17th as planned.
> 
> The second interpretation would be that the law effectively requires the FCC to establish new 90-day and 30-day windows tied to June 12, just as they previously did with Feb. 17, and thus stations could not use the FCC's expedited procedures until March 14 and May 13, respectively. Additionally, one could argue that viewers could not be expected to distinguish the particular notices of any given station planning to transition Feb. 17 from the general notice surrounding that date, and so therefore a new 30 day period of notices is required after the law is passed.
> 
> ...


Excellent analysis. Points that we perhaps haven't explored thoroughly enough.

Will be interesting to see how fast President Obama acts, how fast the FCC acts, and then what the stations do.

Thanks,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

SParker said:


> Did they vote already on this?


Sorry for not posting this sooner. The House Clerk records in near-time the activities of the floor: http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html

And many items are clickable links to specific text when available. (Most items don't appear in the GPO record for a day from their first reading into the record. The DTV Delay act and Resolutions are from yesterday and therefore already in the record available to us.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

Update: The House is taking a 15 minute vote on the SCHIP bill. (First vote of the day [on a topic?] is 15 minutes, I believe to alert all the representatives of the vote and to get their vote in. Subsequent votes [again, on a topic?] seem to be 5 minutes.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

Update: The resolution to consider the Delay act is on the floor.


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## Tom Robertson

It might be the case they talk about the resolution to allow the discussion, then they talk about the Senate bill itself. So there could be 2 hours of debate and two votes.

I'm still learning how the House works. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

Note from Representative Joe Barton (R-Texas):
61% of TV stations are expected to switch even if the delay is permitted (according to acting FCC chief)
141 TV stations have already.


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## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> Note from Representative Joe Barton (R-Texas):
> 61% of TV stations are expected to switch even if the delay is permitted (according to acting FCC chief)
> 141 TV stations have already.


Interesting number, Tom .. That's a pretty significant number of stations sticking with the original plan.


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## hasan

Debate seems to be pretty much along party lines, which leads me to think it will pass. 

In some ways, this is all nothing but an "exercise". 

It is going to be a confusing mess, if, despite the bill, stations are permitted to go dark for analog on a willy/nilly basis.

There appear to be merits on all sides of the debate, but it is equally apparent that if stations are permitted the discretion to ignore the extension, the entire debate is moot.

I'm not advocating for or against the delay, just making the observation that whether it passes or not, it's going to be messy.


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## tcusta00

hasan said:


> Debate seems to be pretty much along party lines, which leads me to think it will pass.
> 
> In some ways, this is all nothing but an "exercise".
> 
> It is going to be a confusing mess, if, despite the bill, stations are permitted to go dark for analog on a willy/nilly basis.
> 
> There appear to be merits on all sides of the debate, but it is equally apparent that if stations are permitted the discretion to ignore the extension, the entire debate is moot.
> 
> I'm not advocating for or against the delay, just making the observation that whether it passes or not, it's going to be messy.


I was just thinking the same thing. If the numbers Tom quoted from Mr. Barton above are accurate then 61% of what this bill was trying to accomplish ("protecting" the people that haven't gotten the memo) is indeed moot. So it all becomes a political maneuver by the government to shift the blame, if there is any to be assigned, from them to the TV stations. They (the government) can now step back and wash their hands of it. :nono2:


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## cb7214

hasan said:


> It is going to be a confusing mess, if, despite the bill, stations are permitted to go dark for analog on a willy/nilly basis.QUOTE]
> 
> Which is exactly why they should end up leaving the way it is now. Because by allowing them to still switch on or after the 17th and some stations don't it will only make things more confusing, especially when people can get some of their stations without the box and others they can't.


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## Tom Robertson

There is a parliamentary issue. How many voters were there?


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## Tom Robertson

The resolution has passed, now the debate on the Senate bill itself.

Closed bill, no amendments are permitted.


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## Pete K.

I'll bet come June, millions still won't be ready.


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## Tom Robertson

I won't take that bet...


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## Tom Robertson

By the way, another point made is the June 12 is a Friday.

My question becomes is that a better day of the week? So Saturday morning, people are snowed out. Can they get enough done over the weekend?

Would there be a better day of the week?


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## Pete K.

Pick a day, any day. There are arguments for and against any date/time. One Congresswoman points out that severe weather season is about to begin and many would be left without a way to get weather warnings. What? There are no severe storms in June? They don't own radios?


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## loudo

Pete K. said:


> I'll bet come June, millions still won't be ready.


For sure, and it will be the ones that never do what they are supposed to or fixes anything until stops working.


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## Tom Robertson

My question here is not day of year, but day of week. Currently set for a Wednesday morning, which seems to be such that there are several days of the week for discovery and resolution.

Versus Saturday morning, leaving no weekdays for resolution.


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## robmadden1

The man talked about a digital antenna. The thing is he don't realise is thier is no damn thing as a digital antenna lol. An antenna is a antenna.


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## bobcamp1

Herdfan said:


> I explained that if he was getting his locals via DISH, he did not need the converter box. He looked truly confused. I did my best to explain that since he had DISH, that they already taken care of the transition on their end and he would continue to receive his locals.
> 
> Finally the guy at RS agreed that he did not need the box so he left without probably still confused.
> 
> No wonder this transition is going to be a cluster as the public education has been horrible.


+1. If the guy at Radio Shack didn't have a clue, no wonder why some are not prepared and some are over prepared. (Or the RS guy DID know, but kept quiet because he wanted the sale).

Also, no one is telling anybody that they'll have to rescan their channels. Or that they may need a new antenna before and/or after the switch.

I think the geeks will have to help the non-geeks. Our government is dropping the ball here.


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## SParker

Fred Upton is shooting on these guys.


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## Tom Robertson

New motion to re-commit the bill to the proper committee for one amendment. 5 minutes of debate.


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## Stuart Sweet

Hmmm... if it goes to committee it could take too long to enact; not a bad thing.


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## Tom Robertson

Now a 15 minute vote to re-commit the bill to committee for the purpose of creating an amendment forcing those stations on the security frequencies (approximately 4 channels) to transition as planned on February 17. This would enable the rest of the stations to delay and the security technologies to be put in place.

If this motion to re-commit is denied, there will be a 5 minute vote on the Bill itself (as a cluster of votes, the second and subsequent votes can be set to 5 minutes ea.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## scooper

TO throw a bit more of a twist to it - not only can 61% of the stations can just shutdown analog, but another 20% or so (450 -500 stations) have their final DTV assignment on their old analog channel. No reason this group couldn't just "go" either if they want to. This group wouldn't have the luxury of nightlight service, but they could make their final transition without interfering with anybody else.


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## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> New motion to re-commit the bill to the proper committee for one amendment. 5 minutes of debate.


I was under the impression that amendment wasn't allowed in the current methodology and doing so will require a significant shift in political process towards a more conventional timeline. Might this be a procedure to delay the delay?


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## ziggy29

harsh said:


> I was under the impression that amendment wasn't allowed in the current methodology and doing so will require a significant shift in political process towards a more conventional timeline. Might this be a procedure to delay the delay?


I would guess so. I strongly doubt the House leadership would allow that, though, if they have any ability to stop it cold.


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## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> I was under the impression that amendment wasn't allowed in the current methodology and doing so will require a significant shift in political process towards a more conventional timeline. Might this be a procedure to delay the delay?


The "Rule" that introduced the Bill to the House was indeed a no amend rule. My rough guess is that a motion to re-commit would supersede the rule itself so the committee could recommend an amendment.

As to rationale, the stated rationale was to strike a balance whereby both of the majority of stations might delay, but security technologies could go forward before hurricane and tornado seasons start.

Beyond that, we must be very careful as to discussing the "whys"...

(Tho the effect would be to delay the delay.)


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## nmetro

Personally, they should just leave well enough alone. In Denver, we cannot get away from the local announcements from the transition; they have been going on for months. Yet, come 17 February or 12 June; there will still be people around here who will not get a proper over the air signal. Why? Mountains, Mesas and Hills. Even today, getting a analog signal is difficult. I live 40 miles from the transmitter source and I only can get four of Denver's 14 channels. Hence, why this area has the largest number of cable and satellite viewers (me included). 

The bottom line, people who are not ready today will not be reading four months from today. I saw the amendment for the four channels allocated to security frequencies. I am not sure which channels this covers, but Denver has VHF 2, 4, 6, 7, 9 and 12 and several UHF channels. So, this bill may have at least two channels (maybe three) Denver channels in DTV only, while the rest in analog. If that is not confusing; I do not know what is. Add to this that several stations on on low power digital and ready to throw the switch in two weeks. There are others, who have tor remain on low power digital until August, so the analog facilities can be swapped out; again this has already been paid for. The cost of a four month delay is more than the number of people who will lose their signals.


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## Stuart Sweet

Please folks, while the hearing is going on, let's refrain from commentary so that people can go to this thread and read about what's going on. You have my complete permission to comment all you want (within forum rules) after the hearing has ended.


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## Tom Robertson

The motion to re-commit with instructions has failed. Next up, I believe, is the vote on the Bill itself.


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## SParker

Ugh looks like it going to pass easily.


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## Tom Robertson

Please continue discussion here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1986043#post1986043


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