# A compendium of HR2x software problems



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Here's my list of more than *60 *HR2x inadequacies. If I've left out any material defect or annoyance, please help me out.

I've tried to include every design deficiency, annoyance and plain stupidity in the HR2x software that I could recall. Except for the DoublePlay item, I've experienced each of these defects with my HR21s (two in succession), and as far as I can tell none of them have been fixed yet. (The fact that search results unavoidably include VOD shows and channels you don't get is intentional, driven by marketing.) A few lucky people may not have seen everything I've seen; maybe they use fewer features, or maybe they have a box that's fast enough for their tastes (the HR20s are said to be faster).

I haven't included complaints about cosmetics; these would be purely matters of opinion. Most of these items (but not all) are better on a TiVo, but the main intent of this list isn't to praise that elegant DVR interface, but rather to indict the HR2x's. To defenders of the D* faith: Please, please refrain from the usual (and predictable) denials.

••• Slow Reaction
• A new Series Link or Autorecorded Search can take days to correctly schedule all its recordings
• An Autorecorded Search re-executed from the Prioritizer usually returns very few of the possible matches
• Missed recordings are still happening (even when the Series Link is long-established)
• The entire UI is so slow that keys are ignored, or acted on too late (and it's probably not because the hardware is inadequate)
• Press-and-hold functions work only sometimes
• Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage
• Press-and-hold functions sometimes engage when you least expect it
• Instant Replay goes back only 5 seconds, and sometimes takes 2 or 3 seconds to act, leading you to press it too many times
• You can't pause a recording on the right frame unless you anticipate and press the Pause key early
• All remote button presses are ignored for the first few seconds after playback starts
• Entering letters with the numeric keypad frequently generates mistakes

••• Recording
• Series Links are limited to 50 (and the interface is even slower if you use all 50)
• No way to tell what channel the background tuner was on when nothing is recording
• DoublePlay won't continuously buffer the background tuner (after two hours)
• Big separate partition to hold PPV/VOD shows you'll never buy
• Unsupported add-on disk storage (eSATA) disables the internal disk drive and is subject to erasure
• Manual recording is unnecessarily difficult, requiring too many keypresses
• No way to enter a 3-digit channel number when recording manually
• Manual recording can't be used to capture what's in the foreground buffer
• End-padding of recordings is limited to certain arbitrary amounts; for example, pads of 3, 4, and 10 minutes aren't allowed
• Start-padding of recordings is even more limited (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 minutes); 15, 20 and 30 minutes would be nice [new]
• The only way to see a long Prioritizer item (without the "...") is to make it do its (usually ineffective) search
• History list gives incorrect reasons for a show's cancellation or deletion
• Neither channel name nor number can be seen in the History list 'til you view the detail screen [new]

••• Searching
• Search results don't always include all matches
• Search results in general include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get
• Person and Keyword searches produce lists that contain channel numbers but not channel names
• Keyword searches are limited to 50 characters, and the TTITLE and CCHAN operators are unnecessarily long
• There have been no improvements for keyword search expressions in spite of many good suggestions
• Channel searches require that you know the first few letters of the channel name; you can't search for Red Zone, for example
• Autorecording based on keyword searching records PPV channels and a few channels you can't get
• Search-result lists refresh themselves for no reason, and sometimes restart from the beginning
• The list of Recent Searches is limited to 25, so you must frequently recreate them [new]

••• User Interface
• No dedicated Slow Motion key
• No dedicated Clear key; Exit clears, but might dismiss the program you're watching
• The Dash (-) key is wasted on a useless "Recorder OK?" function; it could've been the Clear key
• The Dash (-) key can be pressed twice to delete items from some lists but not from others [new]
• The Active key is another wasted button; it also wastes your time when pressed by accident
• Autocorrection after FF goes way too far backwards after all 3 speeds (and when pressing Pause in live TV)
• Stepping after a pause requires multiple presses of the >> button
• The progress bar does not go away by itself when you single-step
• The progress bar covers 15% of the screen (TiVo's covers about 3%)
• There's no way (like TiVo's backdoor) to make the progress bar disappear by itself quickly
• Pressing Play twice to make the progress bar disappear often makes it reappear instead [new]
• The progress bar shows a recording as complete no matter how much of it was lost to rain fade
• Closed Captioning uses only low-resolution fonts with jagged edges (maybe "Subtitling" is better)
• Closed Captioning does not stay on during FF1
• Show's full name (without the "...") isn't shown in the blank area at the top of the To Do List or the History list
• I'd miss TiVo's backdoor elapsed-time display if I didn't have a plasma TV
• The Format key can't change the way an HD channel is displayed when the TV Ratio is set to 16:9, yet it cycles through all the options

••• Navigation
• Too many keypresses required to get to the To Do List, the Prioritizer, or Manual recording
• No way (Ch up/down?) to go directly to the previous/next detailed show description in any list
• Returning from a detailed show description to a list takes too much time refreshing the list
• Now Playing doesn't remember where you were [new]
• The Prioritizer doesn't remember where you were [new]
• Recent Searches doesn't remember where you were [new]
• No menu remembers where you were in it [new]
• No way to skip to a given date in the To Do List [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of Now Playing [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of the Prioritizer [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of Recent Searches [new]
• No way to go quickly to the end of the History list [new]
• No way to skip to a given date in History [new]

••• Miscellaneous
• Occasionally jittery sound (brrrpp) and picture
• Screen saver is jumpy and gets interrupted by flashes of an unrecognizable full-screen image [new]
• Search for Titles: Kool & the Gang is listed only as "& the Gang, Kool"
• Search for Titles: Jackson 5 is listed only as "5, Jackson"
• Any bug fix is usually kept secret, referred to only generically as "UI Polishing" (for example)
• The HR2x user interface is an award-*losing* interface. 

Most of these problems have been reported over and over by many users. While they haven't been fixed, several unrequested and fairly useless features have been added.

Here's why I haven't gone to another provider (I'm definitely NOT staying for the sports packages):

In August 2004, I started subscribing to DirecTV after buying an HR10-250 for $900 (plus $100 for a UHF antenna). I had been a Comcast HD subscriber, but Comcast was refusing to sign a deal to carry the local ABC affiliate in HD. The clincher was that D* had an HD TiVo; no one else did.

I thought the HR10-250 would be a long-term investment. Then, in August 2005, just a year after I started using it, DirecTV announced it would not be using TiVo as its supplier for high definition DVRs, going instead with NDS in a deal which would divert revenue from DVR rentals more directly to DirecTV. In February 2008, DirecTV subscribers were informed they would need to upgrade to its (inferior) NDS equipment if they wanted full HD service. This pair of actions broke faith with customers who, like me, joined DirecTV mostly because of the HD TiVo.

After adding ESPN2 HD to their MPEG-2 channel lineup on 8 Sep 2005, D* added any other new HD channels only to MPEG-4 satellites my HR10-250 couldn't see. In February 2009, D* began to gradually delete their existing MPEG-2 HD channels. (So far, HDNM, UHD and SHOH have disappeared from the HR10-250's view.)

My wife continues to use our HR10-250, mostly for SD even though it's attached to an HDTV (Sony tube), because its interface is so friendly and fast. Eventually we hope to have two MPEG-4 TiVos.

[edit]
Removed "One-touch recording can't record a buffered show if it's (almost) over" -- I can no longer duplicate this; it works great.
Added 16 [new] items


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Kudos on a well-written and thorough post. It's clear you've put a lot of effort into this. 

Normally I'd ask this question privately, but I think it might be helpful for others to hear your reply:

Given that you've listed a lot of items that are design limitations, not per se "bugs," how can we in the forum help you? Without going point by point, I think we can broadly agree that most of these items work as designed and it's the design that you take issue with. Am I right? 

I'm happy to help this thread move in the direction you intend for it, but I'm not sure what that intention is.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

I do have a lot of these issues, but there ARE things that the old D* Tivos CAN'T do that the HR2x does do. But that said my HR21 which replaced and HR20 is WAY too slow in response time. THAT, and the 50 show limit on the Prioritizer are the only real pet peeves I have left on the HR2x series boxes.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> In February 2008, DirecTV subscribers were informed they would need to purchase full upgrades to its (inferior) NDS equipment if they wanted full HD service.


Wow, that is some list.

From what I remember, DirecTV swapped out MPEG2 HD receivers for free for an extended amount of time. I couldn't count the number of posts I saw here about people who received an HR2x receiver to replace their HR10-250.

- Merg


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Kudos on a well-written and thorough post. It's clear you've put a lot of effort into this.


Thanks, Stuart. Unexpected graciousness from a person who (I believe) is strongly on the DirecTV side of this controversy. (Please correct me if that's wrong.)

There's a fine line between a bug and a mistake in design. I didn't try at all to draw that line.

If I had any goal to achieve with this list (besides venting ), it was to get some D* programmers to fix some of these issues, to the extent they are fixable. If some people chime in on one or more fixable items, maybe the squeaks will be loud enough to have an effect. (BTW, whatever happened to the new, spiffy database technology that was supposed to speed everything up?)

Another (albeit far-fetched) possible result if that a decision-maker at D* may, after seeing this list, realize that the HR2x software is not salvageable, and therefore throw his or her weight behind phasing it out in favor of a two-tiered TiVo approach (maybe with two levels of features).


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

The Merg said:


> Wow, that is some list.
> 
> From what I remember, DirecTV swapped out MPEG2 HD receivers for free for an extended amount of time. I couldn't count the number of posts I saw here about people who received an HR2x receiver to replace their HR10-250.


Yep, you're right. My little history is very incomplete. It is true, however, that D* said at first that we'd all have to "purchase full upgrades" (someone else's words). I'll soften that sentence.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Sure, I'll call myself a DIRECTV fan, but I do try to be fair and most of all I try to encourage respectful disagreement. Also I do think you make some really good points there. No matter which side of the fence you're on, I think we can all get behind a speedier user interface for example. 

I would be curious to see, if you looked back at that list, which items you deem poor design choices and which ones you deem bad implementations (i.e. bugs.) The reason I ask is, if you think about it that puts the ball in two different courts, doesn't it?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> My wife continues to use our HR10-250, mostly for SD even though it's attached to an HDTV (Sony tube), because its interface is so friendly and fast. Eventually we hope to have two MPEG-4 TiVos.


OK .. Hopefully it lives up to your expectation.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> ... I would be curious to see, if you looked back at that list, which items you deem poor design choices and which ones you deem bad implementations (i.e. bugs.) The reason I ask is, if you think about it that puts the ball in two different courts, doesn't it?


Bad coding or bad design? It would be tough for me to know. For example, keypresses getting missed or handled way late: Is it bad coding (or bad design) of interrupt handlers? Bad setting of priorities within the software? Time wasted executing inefficient code?

Who knows, real-time execution profiling might reveal that a lot of cycles are spent (wasted) in surprising places in the code. It's happened at other companies.

It's clear to me (from the ways that cellphone-style typing frequently fails) that the software can lose track of time. It sometimes thinks two presses of the same numeric key were far apart in time when in fact they happened in quick succession. To me this suggests the kernel is AFU [a technical term ].

What are those "two different courts"?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

As a Directv "fanboy":lol:, I must say, well put together list. A few comments I put in Red.

• Big separate partition to hold PPV/VOD shows you'll never buy - others do buy them

• Unsupported add-on disk storage (eSATA) disables the internal disk drive and is subject to erasure - Any disk can fail and erase at anytime, even Tivos.

• One-touch recording can't record a buffered show if it's (almost) over - If I hit record while I've had a show on since I've had the channel on, it keeps everything from the show (up to 90mins).

• The Minus (-) key is wasted on a useless "Recorder OK?" function; it could've been the Clear key - Don't people who watch and have OTA need the "-" key? Like for channel 11-1?


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Stuart, I just thought of an item that is probably due to bad design but could be corrected (I hope) by fixing the code:

• Search-result lists refresh themselves for no reason, and sometimes restart from the beginning


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> What are those "two different courts"?


I think it's fair to say that in any large company like DIRECTV, there are the people who design and the people who execute. Someone at DIRECTV decided that it was a good idea to put a pretty big drive in the DVR and then reserve some of it for instant viewing. That would be a design decision.

Now, someone was in charge of making sure channel change times didn't unexpectedly balloon up for some people. That would be in the execution phase, it seems to me.

Yes, the bottom line is they are one big company and as a company they need to be accountable. But Frank, I think you said at one time you were in software development, you know what I'm saying. You're smart... in your opinion did they move very successfully in the wrong direction or very unsuccessfully in the right direction?

But of course, there's always something going on behind the scenes that we don't understand, right?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

*I commend the OP on the time and effort taken on his list*....however...I even take issue with the name and premise of the thread...

Let me first say that "bad design" is in the *eyes of the beholder *- in other words - you may not like some specific things, whereas others may see things in a much different way - potentially even preferring the current design in some cases.

I also feel that the contents of the list ranges from:

...*debatable opinions *of what they feel should be features/functions - this one is a great example:

• Series Links are limited to 50 (and the interface is even slower if you use all 50)

_(I do not see that number as a limitation whatsover, while some others may)_

...to *perceived or actual flaws*....

...to *"wishlist" capabilities*, some of which may or may not be addressed in the announced future TIVO HD DVR and/or other devices.

The list seems to reflect a combination of an existing wishlist already being tracked in its own thread, coupled with extensive existing threads specific to most, if not all, of the other items.

So while this is a very well-done list, it appears to be redundant to most of these being discussed at great length already.

That's just my 2 cents...no more.

YMMV


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

sigma1914 said:


> As a Directv "fanboy" :lol: ...
> 
> • others do buy PPV/VOD *[minimizing]*
> • Any disk can fail and erase at anytime, even Tivos *[denying]*
> ...


About recording the buffer: It fails if the show is over, or almost over -- as I said.

About the "-" button: It could be a character if entered after a digit, otherwise "clear." Even after a digit, "-" after another "-" could mean "clear."


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

There definitely is room for improvement in the HR's. Although I don't agree with the issues below and have added some additional comments in blue.

• One-touch recording can't record a buffered show if it's (almost) over - If I hit record while I've had a show on since I've had the channel on, it keeps everything from the show (up to 90mins).
If the buffer has a prior program in it, you can even record it. Just rewind into that program, press record and it will capture the program that is already done.
• The Minus (-) key is wasted on a useless "Recorder OK?" function; it could've been the Clear key - Don't people who watch and have OTA need the "-" key? Like for channel 11-1? I use the dash for the RSN HD channels and alternate channels. Also use the dash (twice) to quickly delete items in my Playlist.
• There's no way (like TiVo's backdoor) to make the progress bar disappear quickly. Not sure about TiVo's command, but you simply press Exit to clear it.
• No way to enter a 3-digit channel number when recording manually If you have an available tuner there is. Change the channel to the one you want to manually record, prior to going into the menu. Then it is already preset when you set it up.
• You can't pause a recording on the right frame unless you anticipate and press the Pause key early The pause key stops playback immediately, so I'm not sure what you mean.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think it's fair to say that in any large company like DIRECTV, there are the people who design and the people who execute... Yes, the bottom line is they are one big company and as a company they need to be accountable. But Frank, I think you said at one time you were in software development ... in your opinion did they move very successfully in the wrong direction or very unsuccessfully in the right direction?


Yep, 30+ years in software development. But what a choice you give me!

How about "very unsuccessfully in all directions at once?"


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## HRJustin (Mar 5, 2009)

Here is my hypothetical idea of why D*s DVR software isnt quite as refined as the TiVos. TiVo was around and going for quite a few years before D* decided to release its own line of DVRs. So by that IMO D* has spent very little time coding the software for their own DVRs. 

I think this is the main reason for the CE program. The software is being coded and fixed on an ongoing basis. Things are added, removed, fixed, then tested, and so on. I am sure the TiVo software went through the same types of things. Maybe their software wasn't tested publicly.... Maybe the programmers that created the base code had a better idea of what they wanted to begin with....

TiVo was started as a dedicated DVR software not linked to any specific Television provider. It only makes sense to me that they have more perfected their user interface. D* on the other hand went into the DVR software much later. They also more or less basically just added it into their original guide from what I can see. The software for the DVRs vs the standard receivers isnt that awful much different at least from the interface aspect. I just think that given time D* will better perfect their DVR software just as Tivo already has. D* is making the DVR so it more integrates with their guide as it is. Tivo has never had this limitation they created their own user interface/guide from the beginning. Look how far the D* DVRs have came so far. I think that its just a matter of time before more issues get worked out.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

RACJ2 said:


> There definitely is room for improvement in the HR's. Although I don't agree with the issues below and have added some additional comments in blue...
> 
> • One-touch recording...
> • The Minus (-) key...
> ...


(1, 2) I tried to answer the first two in a previous post, above.

(3) TiVo lets you tell it to *always* dismiss the progress bar quickly. No keypress needed.

(4) I knew about changing the channel before starting to record manually. It's a needless waste of time, and not possible if two recordings are in progress.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Syzygy said:


> (4) I knew about changing the channel before starting to record manually. It's a needless waste of time, and not possible if two recordings are in progress.


OK, I understand, you just want your TiVo working with MPEG4 channels. If you have an available tuner, its the same 3 buttons to enter the channel # prior to going into the menu, as it is to enter it when you are already in the manual record menu. So how is that a waste of time?


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## PCampbell (Nov 18, 2006)

There will be a HD Tivo soon, get it.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

RACJ2 said:


> ... If you have an available tuner, it's the same 3 buttons to enter the channel # prior to going into the menu, as it is to enter it when you are already in the manual record menu. So how is that a waste of time?


Because I always forget to do that. Maybe I'm hoping the channel will be close to what I want. (Duh.) So I go into the Manual Record interface, see that the channel is nowhere near what I need it to be, Exit from the interface, select the channel, and then go back (left arrow or Back key?).


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## drill (Jun 28, 2006)

syzygy is dead on here.

the biggest problem with the HR series is that the "real-time" kernel, isn't real-time at all. the hardware is either underpowered for the amount of stuff the kernal has to handle, or the sw kernel is so poorly coded, the hardware can't keep up.

no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig --- its still a pig. the HR series has a lot of features that are cool (lipstick), and a lot of limitations that aren't very cool. but the underlying hardware/os combination (pig) just isn't up to the task.

until directv fixes the platform by rewriting the sw kernal so that it will run on the hardware directv has produced, or replace all the hardware in the field with something faster, we as users are stuck with a DVR that is sometimes frustratingly unresponsive, and with features that perform some functions in a "check box" but not useful manner.


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## eileen22 (Mar 24, 2006)

I am still using one HR10-250 (on a SD TV), and a HR20-700 on an HDTV. I also just started using a R15 a few days ago. While I will admit that the DLB is a big plus for the TiVo unit, overall, I much prefer the functionality and GUI of the HR20. That said, I have definitely had more problems with the HR20 in the 18 months that I have had it, including having to get a replacement unit after only 4 months (HR20-100 replaced w/HR20-700).

The big difference in why I prefer the HR2x GUI is the fact that you can use all of the DVR functions (set up recordings, browse playlist, etc.) while keeping the current program playing in the top right corner (I'm a multi-tasker). Another BIG plus for me on the HR20 is the ways you can browse the guide into the future, this is unbearably slow and cumbersome on the TiVo. Even my ancient Ultimate TV had the capability to move forward 12 hours in the guide.

So, as someone who rarely watches any live TV and a lot of recorded programming, I would have to respectfully disagree with the OP - overall, I like the HR2x much better. I just wish for more stability.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> About the "-" button: It could be a character if entered after a digit, otherwise "clear." Even after a digit, "-" after another "-" could mean "clear."


But a "--" deletes recordings, folders, items from the todo list and items from the "Series Manager". Along with the use in a channel number for OTA the "-" key is a key I use very often. I wouldn't want it to be "clear". I do agree the remote needs a "clear" button but I don't think the "-" button should have to go away in order for "clear" to be available.

Nice list btw, some good points!


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> Here's my list of more than 50 HR2x inadequacies.


I look at your list and, as Stuart noted, see a mix of issues. Many, perhaps most, are simply individual preferences and you will find at least an equal number of people who feel just the opposite that you do. For example, the 50 series link limitation. That is no limit at all for me as I don't think I have ever had more than ten. However, it would also have no effect on me if it were to be increased to more than 50, so I would not object unless that resulted in a higher cost to implement (which would effect me).

There is a well maintained wish list for the HR2x series, and that is probably the best place to note desired changes/improvements in the system. DirecTV has in fact implemented a number of features from the wish list, they are paying attention and are responding. By focusing attention in one place, it is easier to maintain and track, and easier to see the progress made.

For the Tivo versus DirecTV approach to DVRs, DirecTV is also responding to that by working with Tivo to implement an MPEG4 capable DirecTV compatible DVR. While it does not interest me, I fully hope that it does meet the expectations of those who have a preference for the Tivo design and implementation. Then we will have the best of both worlds, what more could we ask for?


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

RACJ2 said:


> ... point added later:
> • You can't pause a recording on the right frame unless you anticipate and press the Pause key early The pause key stops playback immediately, so I'm not sure what you mean.


In live TV, I understand there's autocorrection applied.

In a recording, it's not. My box (not yours?) is so slow that it can't stop playback immediately.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> • The progress bar shows a recording as complete no matter how much of it was lost to rain fade


This is one I definitely agree with you on. There's nothing worse than getting 15 mins into a show and realizing that the 16th minute you watch is actually the 25th minute of the show. If the progress bar matched the amount of what was actually recorded I'd know as soon as I start watching to delete the recording and not waste my time.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Yep, 30+ years in software development.


I am also a 30+ year veteran in the software industry and I can tell you that I have never produced a single piece of software that made all of my users happy. There were always customers disappointed in something. If I gave them 50 parameters, they wanted 100. Had I given them 1,000, they'd complain it was too many. Response time was almost always too slow, but in the event that it was very fast, users would complain that there was not enough "interface feedback". The good news is that the development is not over; D* seems to be committed to continually enhancing the product.

I'm not discounting your opinion, and I agree that many of the items on your list are serious issues, but you seem to be slanted a bit toward TiVo. Personally, I have never owned a TiVo. I had UltimateTV and then the new D* DVR's. Maybe I would feel differently if I had another frame of reference. As it is, I am satisfied with my D* DVR's. I do wish they didn't have some of the shortcomings, bugs and design flaws that they do, but they meet the needs I have.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

eileen22 said:


> ... I prefer the HR2x GUI [because] you can use all of the DVR functions ... while keeping the current program playing in the top right corner (I'm a multi-tasker).


Darn! That's an item I forgot to put in my list! (But no, it's purely a wishlist item and not a bug. In fact. it's a perfect example of a design decision -- that I disagree with -- carried out without any bugs in it that I know of.)

• No way to shut off the sometimes annoying PIP display; I prefer quiet, and I'd rather not have to worry about the effect of accidental keypresses on the little window

(As a matter of fact, I'd much rather have *no *PIP and use the real estate for more information. Are you reading this, TiVonians?)


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

"Please, please refrain from the usual (and predictable) denials."

Wow, don't know what to tell you, sorry your having so many issues. There, unusual and non-predictable....


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

RACJ2 said:


> • One-touch recording can't record a buffered show if it's (almost) over - If I hit record while I've had a show on since I've had the channel on, it keeps everything from the show (up to 90mins).
> If the buffer has a prior program in it, you can even record it. Just rewind into that program, press record and it will capture the program that is already done.





Syzygy said:


> (1, 2) I tried to answer the first two in a previous post, above.


Yes, you did .. Your response was "Missing the point."

So what is the point? For a few seconds at the end of a program you can't hit record and get the program? :scratchin

All you have to do is rewind into the program (or as RACJ2, perhaps even the program before that if desired) and hit record. It records it INSTANTLY. The record light even comes on.

Are you sure that last second recording didn't simply get stored to disk and the red light didn't come on because there was no reason for it to do so? Pressing the red button to record works .. Even works better than TiVo because TiVo (1) wouldn't record the 90 minutes, but instead some apparently random number of ~43 minutes (full buffer) and (2) TiVo would bridge programs, always using the full buffer rather than starting at the beginning of the show when it made sense to do so.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> So what is the point? For a few seconds at the end of a program you can't hit record and get the program? :scratchin
> 
> All you have to do is rewind into the program (or as RACJ2, perhaps even the program before that if desired) and hit record. It records it INSTANTLY. The record light even comes on.
> 
> ... Even works better than TiVo because TiVo (1) wouldn't record the 90 minutes, but instead some apparently random number of ~43 minutes (full buffer) and (2) TiVo would bridge programs, always using the full buffer rather than starting at the beginning of the show when it made sense to do so.


It didn't work that way when I tried it -- admittedly a while ago. So I'll try everything again, and report back with an edit.

(Answering now for proximity to your post.)

Agreed, TiVo almost always records too much, and its buffer is almost always too small. I didn't say my TiVo was superior in all respects. 

*[edit]* Got back from the fast-food restaurant, tried to capture two half-hour shows, both already finished, and *I got 'em*!
To re-emphasize, Doug's right and I'm (gulp) wrong. I'll have to remove that item from the "compendium."

Details: At 6:20 CT, I rewound back at top speed to around 5:10 in the foreground buffer and used the red Record button to capture the 5:00 local news; then I FF3'd forward to about 5:40 and, while still in FF3 mode, used the red Record button again to capture the 5:30 national news. QED.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Thanks, Stuart. Unexpected graciousness from a person who (I believe) is strongly on the DirecTV side of this controversy. (Please correct me if that's wrong.)
> 
> There's a fine line between a bug and a mistake in design. I didn't try at all to draw that line.
> 
> ...


Syzgy,

Stuart may be a moderator on this forum and a "fan" of DirecTV, but I have always found him to be fair and honest when confronted with their problems.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> Agreed, TiVo almost always records too much, and its buffer is almost always too small. I didn't say my TiVo was superior in all respects.


WooHoo, the Washington Generals score!


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Syzygy, a brave post, and a useful discussion.

Stuart, a tip of my hat to you. 

I notice that many of the posters critical of the HR2x are (or were) software professionals, or have formal training in computer science. I consider myself in the latter camp, and find the HR2x system to generally be a kludge.

One issue that hasn't been raised is that the HR2x design is getting long in the tooth in computer years. I think new hardware with a more powerful processor and more memory may be required given the inefficiencies in the code.

I am also hoping the new TIVO box will have newer (and more powerful) hardware, and no dongles!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nice job. I'll just comment on a few items. Note that I don't dismiss your issues, but simply point out that it's either not an issue for others or a simple work around.



Syzygy said:


> ••• Slow Reaction
> • A new Series Link or Autorecorded Search can take days to correctly schedule all its recordings


I personally have never seen it take more then 24 hours. Everything that matches in the next day is there almost instantly. I certainly don't care if it takes another day to snag the next 2 weeks worth. It records the shows which is what counts.



> • An Autorecorded Search re-executed from the Prioritizer usually returns very few of the possible matches


You have any details on this one? Perhaps examples of what you are searching on? I have a couple searches I run all the time for sports and they pick up everything for the next 2 weeks every time.



> • Missed recordings are still happening (even when the Series Link is long-established)


Examples? It's been nearly 3 years since I've missed a recording that wasn't my fault.



> • DoublePlay won't continuously buffer the background tuner (after two hours)


This is probably covered best in the DP thread. But so long as you use the remote it'll keep buffering forever. I'd think if you're going to be away from the other tuner more then 2 hours perhaps you should just record what you want to go back to, especially since the buffer is only 90 minutes anyway. 



> • Big separate partition to hold PPV/VOD shows you'll never buy


Tivo does the exact same thing. Has for at least 8 years.



> • End-padding of recordings is limited to certain arbitrary amounts; for example, pads of 3, 4, and 10 minutes aren't allowed


Tivo allows anything different? It didn't the last time I used Tivo (I've had several Tivo's since 2000). They were always the "standard" 1, 2, 5, 10 and so forth. So no difference here unless the latest Tivo HD units allow for something different.



> • The Minus (-) key is wasted on a useless "Recorder OK?" function; it could've been the Clear key


The minus key is used as it is on any other remote or device, to enter a dash in the channel number. It *has* to be there. It also double's for some other functions when not entering channel numbers.



> • Autocorrection after FF goes way too far backwards after all 3 speeds (and when pressing Pause in live TV)


Personal preference I'd say. Man the loooooong threads on the Tivo forum back in the day complaining about how far back autocorrection goes. At least on the HR2x they spent an entire early CE getting feedback from the community on how far back it should go. They would make a change and ask everyone's opinion that week and then adjust it based on feedback.

Anyway, on this one you can't satisfy everyone and there are plenty of complaints on how much Tivo does this too.



> • Any bug fix is usually kept secret, referred to only generically as "UI Polishing" (for example)


About 1000% more info then I've ever seen out of Tivo. 



> In August 2004, I started subscribing to DirecTV after buying an HR10-250 for $900 (plus $100 for a UHF antenna). I had been a Comcast HD subscriber, but Comcast was refusing to sign a deal to carry the local ABC affiliate in HD. The clincher was that D* had an HD TiVo; no one else did.
> 
> I thought the HR10-250 would be a long-term investment. Then, in August 2005, just a year after I started using it, DirecTV announced it would not be using TiVo as its supplier for high definition DVRs, going instead with NDS in a deal which would divert revenue from DVR rentals more directly to DirecTV. In February 2008, DirecTV subscribers were informed they would need to upgrade to its (inferior) NDS equipment if they wanted full HD service. This pair of actions broke faith with customers who, like me, joined DirecTV mostly because of the HD TiVo.


I'm not getting on you here but the main reason for the HR10-250 going obsolete was actually the move to MPEG4 and new sats that it can't tune to.

This is also why I never spent $1000 on one. It was only a month or two after it was released that word got out on the move to MPEG4 and new sats. I knew the HR10-250 couldn't do MPEG4 so why waste my money on getting one. So I waited until the HR20's first release (3 years ago this month) before getting an HR DVR.

I wish you good luck!


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## narrod (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm exhausted just reading your post. 

I'm used to this interface and have to remember how to do things on the rare occasions I use my one remaining HR10-250. I don't care if they don't add another feature. Just keep it stable and dependable and I'll be happy.


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## drded (Aug 23, 2006)

I hate to be the realist here, but this looks like yet another "Tivo Is Wonderful-HR-2X Sucks" threads we've seen so many of. This one is perhaps a bit more eloquent, but bottom-line, it's Tivo vs. HR-2X bashing all over again.

As several posters have said, if you like Tivo so much, enjoy your lovefest and spare us the bashing of a machine many of us like.

As an experienced programmer, you should know most of your points are very subjective in nature, certainly not objective. You also know that programming resources are allocated and limited. Project managers have many decisions to make and all won't please everyone.

Thanks, however, for the nicely worded post. Sadly, the Tivo-loving still shows through.

Dave


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

drded said:


> I hate to be the realist here, but this looks like yet another "Tivo Is Wonderful-HR-2X Sucks" threads we've seen so many of. This one is perhaps a bit more eloquent, but bottom-line, it's Tivo vs. HR-2X bashing all over again.
> 
> As several posters have said, if you like Tivo so much, enjoy your lovefest and spare us the bashing of a machine many of us like.
> 
> ...


You go right ahead and keep being a realist


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

rudeney said:


> I am also a 30+ year veteran in the software industry and I can tell you that I have never produced a single piece of software that made all of my users happy...


That is some claim to fame .

OK, cheap shot (and just kidding). I know that the point you are making is not that you are a bad software designer, but that perfection and pleasing everyone is nearly an impossible goal to reach.

I think if we could magically meld all of the good features of the HR2x series with the DTivo, we would still have a DVR that, while an improvement, would hardly live up to the standards we want it to, or at least the standards the OP wants it to.

I also think that what made Tivo Tivo was two things:

1) solid reliability

2) visionary ergonomics

These are two things each of which is rare outside of Tivo or Apple. Of course Apple has strayed from perfection quite a bit in the last 5 years IMHO, although maybe not so much in reliability as in the visionary aspect (with wacky design choices).

But then so has Tivo, except their failure is in undermining their own reliability. 6.3 was a Katrina-scale disaster, undercutting if not gutting that solid reliability. And the clever and fresh take on functionality of the HR2x seems to take much of the bite out of the visionary aspect of the Tivo interface, which wasn't all that great for the first 3 years it was around, either, if memory serves. It took v3.0 before Tivo ever got it right.

But I am optimistic toward the future, because we have DTV doing a lot of things right that Tivo was too arrogant to even consider, and Tivo setting the legacy ergonomic standard bar pretty damned high. The competition is therefore strong, and DVRs will improve rapidly and significantly--at least up until the point where DOD and VOD are dominant, and the classic DVR model of local HDD storage seems about as relevant as the IBM Selectric is today.


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

PCampbell said:


> There will be a HD Tivo soon, get it.


One could assume that the UI for the new HD TiVo would be like what we've used before, but is that really assured? And, would it be free of problems. It will be hosted on new hardware. 

Also, once released the complaints will start.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

I suspect the guys who are happy with their HR2x's will enjoy listening to the Tivonians (TIVOHeads? TivoFarians?) complain about bugs in the new Tivo box when it is released. That seems only fair.

The HR2x boxes try to do too much with limited resources. The add-ons and gimmicks that come with the ST are so slow they are virtually useless. You can get up, get a beer and return before they kick-in.

The current HR2x software seems to suffer from the kind of bloat that necessitates a fast processor and a boat load of memory, much like the various flavors of windows and MS Office (which I use daily). I think that causes a lot of the response problems.

My HR21 is slooooow. If it was a PC, I would just pop 1-2 Megs of additional memory in, and see what happens. Speaking of which, has that ever been done? (I am not suggesting you try this at home kids.)


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

TomCat said:


> I think if we could magically meld all of the good features of the HR2x series with the DTivo, we would still have a DVR that, while an improvement, would hardly live up to the standards we want it to, or at least the standards the OP wants it to.
> 
> ... And the clever and fresh take on functionality of the HR2x seems to take much of the bite out of the visionary aspect of the Tivo interface, which wasn't all that great for the first 3 years it was around, either, if memory serves. It took v3.0 before Tivo ever got it right.
> 
> But I am optimistic toward the future, because we have DTV doing a lot of things right that Tivo was too arrogant to even consider, and Tivo setting the legacy ergonomic standard bar pretty damned high. The competition is therefore strong, and DVRs will improve rapidly and significantly...


We early adopters forgave a lot of TiVo's (and ReplayTV's, and Ultimate TV's) ungainly first attempts at flight. DVRs were so new then.

In 2006, after 7 years using a steadily improving TiVo, it really hurt to see D* take such a huge step backward just to save a little money.

Still, I admit that D* has introduced a lot of good ideas, chief among them being one-touch recording from the Guide or from lists. And they've introduced a lot of bad ideas, the worst being the hijacking of the search mechanism to serve the needs of the few (the marketing department) at the expense of the needs of the many (customers).

I would not want a DVR to just merge the HR10 and the HR2x. I'd like (and I expect) to see an MPEG-4 TiVo that's better than both of them. Some of the items in my compendium are deficiencies in *both* of those boxes, and I hope TiVo engineers are reading this entire thread (as well as others on this site).


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Much of what I could say is already being said, but I will add this.. 

There are very very few real bugs in your post.. Which was excellently presented by the way...

However, You will never be happy without a tivo because you like their presentation and overall gui formatting ideals over anyone elses.. And no amount of bug fixing will change that.. I for one, do not like Tivos approach, and in many of your "bug notes" find the HR's way of doing something far better than what tivos do now... Tivo is far to constricting for me, and IMHO treats me like a kid.. Not for me. I want a more versatile system that has much faster access to certain features, like recording, than tivo will ever have.. 

I applaud your great post, but in the end, there a re a LOT of things you list that are not at all bugs, but rather points of preference in how you would like the unit to work.. Soon you will have a tivo option, and I am sure at that time you will be happier... I look forward to seeing how it performs, especially to see how many bugs it has...


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> ... You [Syzygy] will never be happy without a tivo because you like their presentation and overall gui formatting ideals over anyone elses.. And no amount of bug fixing will change that...
> 
> Soon you will have a tivo option, and I am sure at that time you will be happier... I look forward to seeing how it performs, especially to see how many bugs it has...


_Au contraire, mon ami._ If all of the *slow-response* issues were fixed; if lists stopped *refreshing* themselves spontaneously; if searching started obeying a list of *CIG* that I myself can maintain; if I could have, say, *100 SLs*; if there was a dedicated *Slo-Mo* key; if *autocorrection* were made smaller or tuneable; and if there was two-keypress *quick access* to the To Do List, the Prioritizer, and Manual recording... then I would *LOVE* my HR21. (Fat chance, though.)

P.S. -- It would take only two changes for me to *LIKE *my HR21: Fix all the *speed *issues and let me control my *CIG *list for searching. I can't see the first one happening because the software seems to be a hopeless, unmaintainable mess. As for the second one, I'm sure D* needs additional PPV and VOD sales more than they need to make their customers happy. So that's why I hate my HR21.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Nice job. I'll just comment on a few items. Note that I don't dismiss your issues, but simply point out that it's either not an issue for others or a simple work around.


Yep, that's the gist of it for me. Of the 50 "problems", there's only 1 or 2 that effect my usage of the DVR. I don't use any press and hold functions, I never use rewind, I never use slo-motion, I never set up manual recordings, I don't care what channel the background tuner is on, my eSata has worked great for almost 2 years, I don't miss recordings, I don't often use searches (when I'm scheduling something, I know what I want to schedule) and never use keywords or bolean, I don't know why I'd want a clear key, autocorrect works fine for me (I suppose it could go back a little less far, but not a biggie, I have the current implementation timed perfectly - only took about 2 days), the progress bar doesn't bother me, CC works fine for me (we use it all the time and it's always clear), I have no reason to change the format of HD programming.

The only things on that list that I'd like to see changed are the 50 series limit and the fact that faster is always better (although I rarely notice that the UI is particularly slow). My wife loves the HRXX's too. In fact, we got rid of our tivo's (which we had for 6 years) shortly after getting our first HRXX and got 2 more HRXX's, even though they're connected to SDTV's. We just thought the HRXX's were better almost immediately after using them.

But, everyone uses their DVR's differently.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> _Au contraire, mon ami._ If all of the *slow-response* issues were fixed; if lists stopped *refreshing* themselves spontaneously; if searching started obeying a list of *CIG* that I myself can maintain; if I could have, say, *100 SLs*; if there was a dedicated *Slo-Mo* key; if *autocorrection* were made smaller or tuneable; and if there was two-keypress *quick access* to the To Do List, the Prioritizer, and Manual recording... then I would *LOVE* my HR21. (Fat chance, though.)


I just flipped through your post again, and i am missing what you are talking about in regards to lists refreshing themselves....

And after reading this post, you now have stated you'd like the units if they fixed 1 bug (speed, which they have made huge strides on in the new NR that is rolling out now!) and if they altered the way they designed their unit to work to fit your personal preferences in 5 specific areas.... Talk about narrowing down a your list of things that you feel need to happen to make your units better....


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> I just flipped through your post again, and i am missing what you are talking about in regards to lists refreshing themselves...


In my original list, it's the last item under ••• Searching:

• Search-result lists refresh themselves for no reason, and sometimes restart from the beginning.

You'll see this if you get a list of search results that's pretty long (say, 20 or more items). As you page through the list, stopping to check out some individual shows (Select key, then left arrow) you'll occasionally be surprised to see the original list replaced by "Please Wait", and after half a minute or more you get the same list back, with no changes, or (worse) the same list, with you repositioned at the start of the list. This pause to rebuild the list happens to me intermittently any time I spend more than a couple of minutes in a fairly long list of search results. And it happens while you're just looking at the list; you don't have to visit a detail screen to make it happen.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

Nicholsen said:


> I suspect the guys who are happy with their HR2x's will enjoy listening to the Tivonians (TIVOHeads? TivoFarians?) complain about bugs in the new Tivo box when it is released. That seems only fair.
> 
> The HR2x boxes try to do too much with limited resources. The add-ons and gimmicks that come with the ST are so slow they are virtually useless. You can get up, get a beer and return before they kick-in.
> 
> ...


Okay, so why is my HR21 pro fast then? Do the pros have different memory or processor?


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

I was wondering how long it would take before the 'mine isn't slow' posts started here. They all seem to vary but those people that have used Dish Network receivers and those with HR22s like mine all know the HR series are 'slow'.

No need to argue - those than can put away their fan-boy weapons admit - the speed needs to improve.

I doubt that DirecTV will do much of anything to improve the speed - it seems that either the hardware can't handle what they want out of it, the programmers don't know what they're doing or DirecTV just doesn't care. The 'speed' issues go back to day 1 and will likely be with us until they have a new receiver.

Here is my fix - as soon as football season is over I'll send back 2 of my 3 HR22s and suspend my account - go back to Dish Network. Next September I'll re-activate my DirecTV sub with the family pack and Sunday Ticket - then deactivate it again. It will cost me a fortune but at least I won't have to deal with being told the speed problems are all in my mind or they'll be fixed in the next release of the software or 'must be something in your setup'.

Maybe someday DirecTV will have a receiver that is not so frustrating to use but until then I'll have to pay 2 providers....


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

One thing that I noticed no one seemed to ask...

Syzygy, what software version are you running? If your post is about 0x312 then you should have waited until you got 0x34C. Your list would have been shorter. Speed issues have been taken care of in 0x34C among other things in your list.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> Maybe someday DirecTV will have a receiver that is not so frustrating to use but until then I'll have to pay 2 providers....





RunnerFL said:


> One thing that I noticed no one seemed to ask...
> 
> Syzygy, what software version are you running? If your post is about 0x312 then you should have waited until you got 0x34C. Your list would have been shorter. Speed issues have been taken care of in 0x34C among other things in your list.


Indeed...users will see quite a change on several fronts with 34C....so for those who have not yet had it pushed out to them...its coming any day now to you.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Can't we have a thread where the word "fanboy" or "sides" doesn't emerge? This isn't an "us vs. them" battle, guys. We all want good hardware and software. There are indeed people that don't have the issues you have and when they voice those observations they're called fanboys. On the other side are the folks that are having problems and when they voice those observations they're often called trolls. 

Let's try to have a meaningful discussion without throwing out words like "fanboy" and creating "sides". I don't know about you guys but I just want something that works. 

For me, the HR2x works just fine. Don't flame me because mine doesn't act like yours and I'm voicing that! Everything on my receivers works fine for me and my use. Sure, it's slow (my biggest complaint) but otherwise it's fine for me. 

So let's stop slinging mud and discuss without flaming. This thread has gone along pretty well but there a few cheap jabs in there that add nothing to the discussion other than to flame. This is a mature forum with people who can discuss things in a mature way, even with strong opinions. Stop promulgating the use of "fanboy". It's getting really old. Really. And I noticed the first use of it in this thread was by someone using it on himself. We're adults so let's act like it and not call each other (or ourselves) names.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Can't we have a thread where the word "fanboy" or "sides" doesn't emerge? This isn't an "us vs. them" battle, guys. We all want good hardware and software. There are indeed people that don't have the issues you have and when they voice those observations they're called fanboys. On the other side are the folks that are having problems and when they voice those observations they're often called trolls.
> 
> Let's try to have a meaningful discussion without throwing out words like "fanboy" and creating "sides". I don't know about you guys but I just want something that works.
> 
> ...


I just did it as a joke because it seems that if you like what you use, then you're called a fanboy...it was tongue-in-cheek on my part. 

I do agree with your post, though. Also, bring back the Soup Nazi avi! Pats :bad_nono::down:


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

sigma1914 said:


> I just did it as a joke because it seems that if you like what you use, then you're called a fanboy...it was tongue-in-cheek on my part.
> 
> I do agree with your post, though. Also, bring back the Soup Nazi avi! Pats :bad_nono::down:


I know you meant it in jest but it only serves to further the "war" here. Nothing personal, I'm just sick of being called a fanboy because I'm mostly happy with my receivers and am not afraid to admit it. 

The Soup Nazi will be back after the Pats win the Superbowl, have no fear.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> I know you meant it in jest but it only serves to further the "war" here. Nothing personal, I'm just sick of being called a fanboy because I'm mostly happy with my receivers and am not afraid to admit it.
> 
> The Soup Nazi will be back after the Pats win the Superbowl, have no fear.


Ahh ok...admitting fanboyness (?) is the first step. 

After the Pats win the Superbowl? I hope DBSTalk is still around years from now. :lol:

:backtotop ...Semi-nice list.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> I suspect the guys who are happy with their HR2x's will enjoy listening to the Tivonians (TIVOHeads? TivoFarians?) complain about bugs in the new Tivo box when it is released. That seems only fair.


I think the common term is TiVotee .. Those who are devoted to their TiVo.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Syzygy said:


> In live TV, I understand there's autocorrection applied.
> 
> In a recording, it's not. My box (not yours?) is so slow that it can't stop playback immediately.


Sometimes mine is slow to respond, but most times it responds right away. Although, if I have the back-light level set to low on my LCD it kills the IR commands.

In my post I was simply pointing out some things I didn't agree with or pointing out workarounds. As I mentioned, there definitely is room for improvement. I agree with many of your items such as slow motion key & functionality, DLB, press & hold comments and all 3 of your navigation comments. Although if they could just improve consistency with response, that would be huge for me.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> I think the common term is TiVotee .. Those who are devoted to their TiVo.


I like that. And with a capital V, too! 

I sometimes use "TiVonians" to refer to TiVo workers, esp. engineers. I was a TiVangelist back in the day.

TiVorcé[e] : someone who abandoned his or her spouse to watch TV all the time (using any DVR)


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

More news on the Pause function: Last night I failed to get Pause to stop anywhere near the current frame _in a recording_. Repeatedly, I would end up seconds away. I was able to get Pause to stop where I wanted it to only if I was in FFx1 mode when I pressed the button.

Sorta looks like (a mutant version of) autocorrection was in effect even though I was in a recording. This software is seriously messed up.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Indeed...users will see quite a change on several fronts with 34C....so for those who have not yet had it pushed out to them...its coming any day now to you.


I have 34c on mine - at first I didn't see any speed difference - but using it last night it does seem a little better but still a long long way to go. Still stutters while scrolling around the menus but not as much. Responding to the remote went from maybe 6 out of 10 to 8 out of 10 times it sees all the buttons I push. On my official speed scale of 0 - 100 I'd say before 34c it was around 25 and with 34c I'd say it is about a 35. I'd put my old Dish 622 at about 90 and my old DirecTivo at about 50.


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## Crow159 (May 23, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> In my original list, it's the last item under ••• Searching:
> 
> • Search-result lists refresh themselves for no reason, and sometimes restart from the beginning.
> 
> You'll see this if you get a list of search results that's pretty long (say, 20 or more items). As you page through the list, stopping to check out some individual shows (Select key, then left arrow) you'll occasionally be surprised to see the original list replaced by "Please Wait", and after half a minute or more you get the same list back, with no changes, or (worse) the same list, with you repositioned at the start of the list. This pause to rebuild the list happens to me intermittently any time I spend more than a couple of minutes in a fairly long list of search results. And it happens while you're just looking at the list; you don't have to visit a detail screen to make it happen.


I've personally seen this myself. It is frustrating when you're trying to look for things and it resets. I always thought the reset was because an hour ticked by.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> Here's my list of more than 50 HR2x inadequacies. If I've left out any material defect or annoyance, please help me out.
> 
> I've tried to include every design deficiency, annoyance and plain stupidity in the HR2x software that I could recall. Except for the DoublePlay item, I've experienced each of these defects with my HR21s (two in succession), and as far as I can tell none of them have been fixed yet. (The fact that search results unavoidably include VOD shows and channels you don't get is intentional, driven by marketing.) A few lucky people may not have seen everything I've seen; maybe they use fewer features, or maybe they have a box that's fast enough for their tastes (the HR20s are said to be faster).
> 
> ...


Syzygy, very good and detailed work. Thanks.

Without comparing to any other platforms in particular, my hope is to continue to improve upon the HR2x. Many of your items need to be evolved into the HR2x family to put the finishing polish on the diamond, formerly in the rough. (Abusing that analogy, I know.) 

(that said, it feels like the last two items in the miscellaneous list are a bit contrived to reach 50. One of them doesn't even talk about the HR2x at all, but rather the process.)

So taking them in groups:
Slowness--yup needs to be improved. Can you accept my assurance that DIRECTV is working on this? Remember, performance improvement is always an ongoing process as new features are added. And you've done a great job detailing different categories to remember.

Recording: I guess I have never needed to know what is on a background tuner. I always set it if if I need it. Can you share how you use that knowledge?

The PPV/VOD section has been discussed ad nausem, it is a design feature that only you know about because you can do the math. DIRECTV sells a capacity and delivered it. 

Others would say you've left off negative padding. I personally don't have a problem with the options for padding, especially since I have recording defaults. 

Searching: I'd have to test some of these. Thanks for the details.

UI: I guess I don't have anything to say about your comments other than thanks for detailing them. Well... I guess I'd expect to press >> repeatedly to do frame by frame stepping. That seems intuitive to me.

Upon further reflection, there could be some interesting possibilities of the rain fade recordings. Perhaps at some amount of recording missing, it could show partial or gaps?

Navigation: I concur with most of these. I also think there have been improvements that help somewhat. Hopefully more to come.

Miscellaneous: I wonder how many of the "searching items" might be more to do with the guide data? Something to consider (while DIRECTV might look into it.) 

And the brrripp issue might end up being on the data encoding side of things. In other words--affect all MPEG4 receivers no matter whose software on the receiver...

Thanks again,
Tom


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

tcusta00 said:


> Can't we have a thread where the word "fanboy" or "sides" doesn't emerge?
> 
> For me, the HR2x works just fine. Don't flame me because mine doesn't act like yours and I'm voicing that! Everything on my receivers works fine for me and my use. Sure, it's slow (my biggest complaint) but otherwise it's fine for me.


I hear what you're saying but I don't know how to describe the (maybe few) people here that are in complete denial. By your comments you are obviously not a 'fan-boy'. There are several people here that will go to their grave demanding that there are no speed issues with these receivers. I think anyone being honest would have to admit that, at best, things should be faster.

My vote would be for people to be honest on both ends of the spectrum. People should not exaggerate how bad or how good these things are. I think a lot of people come here looking for information so they can decide what they want to do. It doesn't help anyone when the so called fans or the TiVotees take things to extreme!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> I have 34c on mine - at first I didn't see any speed difference - but using it last night it does seem a little better but still a long long way to go. Still stutters while scrolling around the menus but not as much.


When you say "stutters" are you talking about menu tearing .. where the left portion of the screen goes at a different speed than the right portion of the screen?

If you haven't already, you may want to consider turning menu scrolling effects off.

Menu > Parental, Fav's and Setup > System Setup > Display > Preferences

Then set "Scrolling Effects" to "off"


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Crow159 said:


> I always thought the reset [of a search list] was because an hour ticked by.


That was my guess at first, but it seems to happen at arbitrary times, and more than once in the space of a few minutes.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't linger on searches for very long so I'm not as familiar with this issue. However, I wonder if it's because the HR2x series are getting guide data updates all the time. If that's the case, I'd say updating the search results would be the right decision. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't TiVo's get their guide data less frequently?


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> When you say "stutters" are you talking about menu tearing .. where the left portion of the screen goes at a different speed than the right portion of the screen?
> 
> If you haven't already, you may want to consider turning menu scrolling effects off.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doug but I already have scrolling effects set to off....

I'm just talking about when there is a list of things - guide or otherwise - and I want to scroll down to the say the 6th line. I start to hit the down arrow and many times I end up on line 5 so I hit down one more time... It then catches up and I end up on line 7! Sometimes I'll pause as it sits on line 6 waiting for it catch up but it doesn't so I have to hit down arrow again.

I thought maybe it was related to the remote response problems but it seems to get all the up and down clicks more often than not but there is just a random delay so I 'overshoot' what I want.

A good example is to go to the guide and then hit the down arrow 4 times. On my HR22s the result is not consistent... Sometimes it pauses on the first line and then continues on down. Sometimes it moves from the 1st to the 2nd then to 3rd where it pauses and then moves to the 4th. Other times it will just move 1,2,3 and stop on 4 like you'd expect.

Sadly - I think the fix is to hit a button, wait, hit the next button, wait etc. I was going through my to-do list deleting things I didn't want to record and it takes forever! I think a lot of people are just fine with that but after using Dish receivers for so long I'm hooked on the immediate reaction. Even my HD DirecTivos that I used for a couple of years (that I considered way to slow at the time) responded immediately! With the DirecTivos there were just too many 'waiting' screens... That was annoying but still much better than constantly ending up on the wrong selection.

Thanks again!


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> Syzygy, very good and detailed work. Thanks...
> 
> (That said, it feels like the last two items in the miscellaneous list are a bit contrived to reach 50. One of them doesn't even talk about the HR2x at all, but rather the process.)
> 
> ...


Thanks for your encouraging response, Tom. It sounds like you're intimitely involved in the software's development and/or maintenance.

You probably didn't count the items in my list, of course, but my text editor does it easily. I didn't just "reach 50," I got up to 54 before removing "One-touch recording can't record a buffered show if it's (almost) over" because I found it works great now. Those last 4 items were thrown in just for a lark.

If I could know what is on a background tuner, how would I use that knowledge? I'd peek at the program to see if it's a show I'd like to capture as a recording. I've done that with my HR10-250.

I think everyone knows that, if there are a half dozen PPV movies just waiting to be watched, they're taking up space. I'd like to have that space for my own (free) recordings. (BTW, some D* fan said TiVo also has reserved space -- but in my experience it's only for snippets, not for entire movies.)

I left out negative padding because I never use it. Maybe someone who does use it can say whether it's adequate.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't linger on searches for very long so I'm not as familiar with this issue. However, I wonder if it's because the HR2x series are getting guide data updates all the time. If that's the case, I'd say updating the search results would be the right decision.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, don't TiVo's get their guide data less frequently?


Please let the programmers know that the right decision would be to *leave the fargin list alone!* It's very unlikely that there's any new information, and even if there is, it's bad form to interrupt someone who's reading the news (so to speak) by yanking it out of his hands. (If there's a practical reason -- like a problem that could occur when the user tries to look at the details of a show that's no longer scheduled -- it can be solved another way. The cheapest way might be to delay guide updates while a list is on the screen.)

P.S. -- If your theory is correct, that guide updates are refreshing the list I'm perusing, it's a perfect example of an extremely bad design decision that seems like a bug. So, I say, why should a user waste time trying to differentiate between the two classes of mistakes?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Perhaps the best compromise, if the new searches are driven by new guide data, would be to have a small popup at the bottom, completely ignorable, that said "New Guide Data is Available: Press • to search again." But as I said I'm not sure why the search re-runs.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

"If the new searches are driven by new guide data..."

I think that, when the search list gets refreshed but you don't lose your position, there was *no *new data; new data in the list causes a *reset *to the start of the list.

The software doesn't actually know whether there's new data for the list until after the update is fully received. So the "yanking the list out of your hands" is often completely unnecessary. I guess that no effort is expended on determining whether the on-screen list is affected by the update -- until after the list has already been refreshed. That would be a bug, pure and simple -- or a misunderstanding, by the coder, of the design.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Perhaps the best compromise, if the new searches are driven by new guide data, would be to have a small popup at the bottom, completely ignorable, that said "New Guide Data is Available: Press • to search again." But as I said I'm not sure why the search re-runs.


I've been annoyed by this search bug as well. I've seen it as well when pressing "info" on the channel number in the guide to get a listing of shows just on that channel (which is basically a search by channel).

If it is new guide data that is causing this, then I have to agree with Syzygy that this is a bad implementation. I'm not sure it really even needs a message like you are suggesting. There's probably a less than 1% chance that the new guide data will even effect the search results that you are seeing.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm by no means any fanboy of either system. Owned tivo's for years. I'm sorry but I can't help it if mine aren't slow. I don't see anything slow about any aspect of them....and I know what slow is....



Mike Greer said:


> I was wondering how long it would take before the 'mine isn't slow' posts started here. They all seem to vary but those people that have used Dish Network receivers and those with HR22s like mine all know the HR series are 'slow'.
> 
> No need to argue - those than can put away their fan-boy weapons admit - the speed needs to improve.
> 
> ...


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Sartori said:


> I'm by no means any fanboy of either system. Owned tivo's for years. I'm sorry but I can't help it if mine aren't slow. I don't see anything slow about any aspect of them....and I know what slow is....


Well, of course you are correct. I must be delusional! That must be why DirecTV doesn't fix it. How can they fix something that isn't broken.

I wonder what all the people that claim the new version fixes things are thinking? They must also be delusional! Lots of us crazies around here it seems! I'm sure DirecTV is just spewing the news of the latest increase in speed hoping for a placebo effect.... Who knows - maybe it will work.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> Well, of course you are correct. I must be delusional! That must be why DirecTV doesn't fix it. How can they fix something that isn't broken.
> 
> I wonder what all the people that claim the new version fixes things are thinking? They must also be delusional! Lots of us crazies around here it seems! I'm sure DirecTV is just spewing the news of the latest increase in speed hoping for a placebo effect.... Who knows - maybe it will work.


Heard this song before...I can name that tune in one note.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Careful there Mr. Fan... You are one of the delusional ones! (Hopefully I'm not telling you anything you don't already know!)



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Indeed...users will see quite a change on several fronts with 34C....so for those who have not yet had it pushed out to them...its coming any day now to you.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> Careful there Mr. Fan... You are one of the delusional ones! (Hopefully I'm not telling you anything you don't already know!)


Thanks for not disappointing.

Baited, cast, hooked, caught, and now fried. :lol:


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for not disappointing.
> 
> Baited, cast, hooked, caught, and now fried. :lol:


Like shooting fish in a barrel but no worries - I'm a firm believer in 'catch and release'!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> Like shooting fish in a barrel but no worries - I'm a firm believer in 'catch and release'!


My thoughts on this side too... !rolling


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Please cease & desist, Sartori, Mike Greer and hdtvfan0001 -- as funny as you guys might be (in your own minds ), by me that's just 7 posts in a row that are a waste of space and time. Of course, I'm tempted to jump in too, but so far I've been able to stifle myself (sorta).


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> Please cease & desist, Sartori, Mike Greer and hdtvfan0001 -- as funny as you guys might be (in your own minds ), by me that's just 7 posts in a row that are a waste of space and time. Of course, I'm tempted to jump in too, but so far I've been able to stifle myself (sorta).


You're right - but sometimes you just have to laugh!:lol:

But now I guess it is 9 posts!

I just wish they'd speed these things up!:icon_peac


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Syzygy said:


> (BTW, some D* fan said TiVo also has reserved space -- but in my experience it's only for snippets, not for entire movies.)


So I'm a D* fan for simply pointing out that Tivo also has reserved space at near the same % that DirecTV does? LOL.  Especially considering that reserved space back in the day was on those dinky small 60/80 gig hard drives and look out when we had 120 gig. Doesn't matter what is recorded in that reserved space, the fact is that it's there on both platforms. I guess if that makes me a "D* fan", then I'm guilty. :eek2: :lol:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Let's all take this over to the "What are you a fan of" thread ..
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164168

Please leave this thread for those that want to simply complain about what they perceive to be the shortcomings of the HR20. I certainly don't want to see this thread head the direction it is heading.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> Thanks for your encouraging response, Tom. It sounds like you're intimitely involved in the software's development and/or maintenance.
> 
> You probably didn't count the items in my list, of course, but my text editor does it easily. I didn't just "reach 50," I got up to 54 before removing "One-touch recording can't record a buffered show if it's (almost) over" because I found it works great now. Those last 4 items were thrown in just for a lark.
> 
> ...


More like I know the many of the developers (and they are a great group), but don't get to talk to them much. Most of what I know is purely from observation and lots of general IT experience. 

I like doubleplay for peeking, but I don't know that I've ever relied upon it for spontaneous check and record. Usually I use the guide for that.  Yet, I welcome other ways of doing things. (That's how I learn new ways myself.) 

One the note of the "refreshing lists", I know DIRECTV fixed one or two of those cases, so I'm hopeful they will eventually fix all of them. It can be annoying.

Regarding guide updates, I think it is a continuous flow of data and updates. I don't think there is very much in the way of "chunk of data" processing, just a continual stream of guide data coming in to be processed. So in my mind the search results should be less obvious that a search result is updated unless it affects something currently on the screen. And just let me work the data on the screen without stopping to update (or at least not so often.)

Basically, one thing at a time. This is still a young platform and maturing very quickly compared to the other DVR platforms.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

Mike Greer said:


> Well, of course you are correct. I must be delusional! That must be why DirecTV doesn't fix it. How can they fix something that isn't broken.
> 
> I wonder what all the people that claim the new version fixes things are thinking? They must also be delusional! Lots of us crazies around here it seems! I'm sure DirecTV is just spewing the news of the latest increase in speed hoping for a placebo effect.... Who knows - maybe it will work.


Okay, well the only thing I can think of is if your ever in Montana traveling through along the Hi-line, your very welcome to stop by and you can check out "my delusions" in person


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

<Mod hat on>
Let us skip "mine isn't slow here" discussions. Experiences will differ. And we don't have the tools to really analyze why or how.

So please return to constructive commentary shortcomings, possible fixes, or possible workarounds, etc. on the HR2x family.

Thank you,
Tom


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## pretzelbag (Dec 31, 2007)

The HR2x issues that I would like to change are (some of these are on syzygy's list):

1. When searching, I get results for channels I don't get. I realize D* marketing wants me to buy those channels, but I don't need to have that "here's what you're missing" beaten into my head every search. I get frustrated with the pages of channels I don't get (appears a lot with the RSNs).

To placate the D* marketing department, I would be happy with a list of search results from the channels I *do* get, and a little message saying, "124 more results are on channels you to which you do not subscribe. Would you like to see those results and learn more about subscribing to those channels?"

2. The behavior of the EXIT key when viewing a recording is often irritating. If I press play and want to clear the progress bar, I can click EXIT. But if I am a split-second late in pressing EXIT, I am dumped from the entire recording. I would much prefer EXIT to do nothing in that case. If I need to exit the entire recording, I can hit the Stop butting, yes?

3. I use 30SLIP and ->| to skip past commercials. Sometimes, the remote codes pile up and the box interprets this as "go to the end of the show", effectively killing what I wanted to do.

I'd be much happier if ->| didn't have that press-and-hold function. I know I am not alone in this, but it really wipes out the viewing experience when it goes wrong.

4. The guide is not as intuitive as I think it should be. I realize that D* wants to have a guide that is portable across DVRs and non-DVRs, but that misses the crucial difference that a non-DVR owner is interested in "what's on now" while the DVR owner is more focused on "what's on now *and* in the future".

To that end, the guide could be much improved for DVR purposes. If I am watching a channel, and want to know what is on that channel in the future (for recording), I have to either key to the right 30 minutes at a time, or key left to the channel name, press INFO, and wait 10 seconds for a menu to load. In either case, it's a lot of pressing just to see what is on in the future.

5. The search UI seems to be very heavily focused on channel number rather than channel name. Search results will show that a show is on channel 254, 341, and 650, but why not just show the short network ID? I'm much better at remembering network names rather than channel numbers.

-pretzelbag.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

I like your post, *pretzelbag*, but only one of those items is fresh. Good job reinforcing and explaining.

(1)
• Search results in general include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get
• Autorecording based on keyword searching records PPV channels and a few channels you can't get
(2)
• No dedicated Clear key; Exit clears, but might dismiss the program you're watching
(3)
• Press-and-hold functions sometimes engage when you least expect it
(5)
• Person and Keyword searches produce lists that contain channel numbers but not channel names

(4)
I think the Guide criticism is valid, but I don't think the Guide's design descends to the level of a deficiency or an annoyance. JMO. BTW, I didn't realize that D* wants to have a guide that is portable across DVRs and non-DVRs.

Here's what I _might've _added to my list:

• Too many keypresses required to generate a list for one channel if you're not at the current time in the Guide

(You have to press Guide twice to dismiss it and recall it, maybe reposition the Guide to the channel of interest, then press Left arrow and Info. Come to think of it, that's not so hard after all.  Alternatively, you can use the Yellow menu to select the current time; the channel won't change.)


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Added 16 more items (69 total):

• The list of Recent Searches is limited to 25, so you must frequently recreate them [new]
• Screen saver is jumpy and gets interrupted by flashes of an unrecognizable full-screen image [new]
• Neither channel name nor number can be seen in the History list 'til you view the detail screen [new]
• Now Playing doesn't remember where you were [new]
• The Prioritizer doesn't remember where you were [new]
• Recent Searches doesn't remember where you were [new]
• No menu remembers where you were in it [new]
• No way to skip to a given date in the To Do List [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of Now Playing [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of the Prioritizer [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of Recent Searches [new]
• No way to go quickly to the end of the History list [new]
• No way to skip to a given date in History [new]
• Start-padding of recordings is even more limited (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 minutes); 15, 20 and 30 minutes would be nice [new]
• Pressing Play twice to make the progress bar disappear often makes it reappear instead [new]
• The Dash (-) key can be pressed twice to delete items from some lists but not from others [new]


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

It's commonly thought that the very reason for the 50-SL limit is that more than 50 bogs down the user interface.

I wonder if using a lot of complex and cumbersome Keyword Autorecords (to get around the 50-SL limit) might be slowing down my HR21? 

Currently I have 31 SLs, 17 of which are Keyword Autorecords representing 70 (!) series. This is an unusually high number because it's the start of a new season; last April I had 31 SLs, "only" 12 of which were Keyword Autorecords representing 49 series. The HR21 was very slow then too.

There may be a strong correlation between UI slowness and the number of show names placed in the Prioritizer (regardless of whether the names are in individual SLs or grouped together in Keyword Autorecords). If so, my two biggest complaints would turn out to be inescapably bound together. Replace the database and fix both at the same time!


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> [Some] would say you've left off negative padding...


OK, I added an item on negative padding, as well as 15 other things. Look two posts above. This is a bump.

Some "defenders of the D* faith" have complained that the HR2x needn't do something just because TiVo does it. Others argue that if TiVo doesn't do something, then why should the HR2x? Neither of these reactions makes sense to me. My list is only about what the HR2x should do (IMO), but doesn't.


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