# Good Bye Tivo



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

I have an announcement. I am now officially retiring my TIVO. The HR20 has come a long way since last September. Those of you who know me from my postings, know that I am a big TIVO guy. I still am. I love TIVO. However, the HR20 is now a worthy replacement, and even an upgrade. (Even though it is still missing DLBs. I am still going to be a gadfly about that.) 

So those of you who are sitting on the fence, go ahead and pull the trigger. You will miss some of your TIVO's features, but the HR20 makes up for it with its beautiful HD picture. 

Good work DirecTV - the HR20 is ready for prime time. 

And if you don't believe this was a bit of a decision for me, go back and search my postings for mention of TIVO. You will likely find I was pretty slow to accept the HR20 as a replacement. That was then - this is now - after using the HR20 for about 9 months. 

Fence sitters - pull the trigger.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Ok, I'll have to contact the FBI to find out who this really is and what happened to the real JayWDetroit! Without DLB, there is no way he would make this kind of post--even with a gun to his head. 

I'll let you know what they find.

Cheers,
Tom


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, I'll have to contact the FBI to find out who this really is and what happened to the real JayWDetroit! Without DLB, there is no way he would make this kind of post--even with a gun to his head.
> 
> I'll let you know what they find.
> 
> ...


Bet the real Jay is next to Hoffa. :lol:


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, I'll have to contact the FBI to find out who this really is and what happened to the real JayWDetroit! Without DLB, there is no way he would make this kind of post--even with a gun to his head.
> 
> I'll let you know what they find.
> 
> ...


:coolglass


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Jay, I bow my head to you. I want to pull the trigger but my R10 is doing duty on an SD TV in the bedroom and I just can't bring myself to get an R15. Maybe if their CE goes NR....


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, I'll have to contact the FBI to find out who this really is and what happened to the real JayWDetroit! Without DLB, there is no way he would make this kind of post--even with a gun to his head.
> 
> I'll let you know what they find.
> 
> ...


I know what happened Tom. Jay found out last night that the SWM (FTM) outputs will not work with the TiVo and only the legacy outputs will.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> Jay, I bow my head to you. I want to pull the trigger but my R10 is doing duty on an SD TV in the bedroom and I just can't bring myself to get an R15. Maybe if their CE goes NR....


I couldn't bring myself to get an R15 either--SD is dead so I went with another HR20 

Cheers,
Tom


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

BMoreRavens said:


> I know what happened Tom. Jay found out last night that the SWM (FTM) outputs will not work with the TiVo and only the legacy outputs will.


Well that might be part of the puzzle. (oops I said puzzle, now Tom's gears are going.) But actually it was inevitable. 80 HD channels by September was a major decision factor as well. That's 80 extra channels my TIVO can't get.

And I would not have done it if I didn't trust the HR20. Like I said, it is "good to go".


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

I'll be retiring my SD-DVR80 this August after completing the 2 year commitment on it and I'll use the HR10-250 for ATSC and DIRECTV SD programming. I've already sold off several standalone TiVos because I used them for over-the-air channels and I didn't want to wait until the analog shutdown date because I know someone else can use them for satellite or cable.

I ordered an ATSC PCI tuner card for my MCE 2005 PC and I'm quite happy with both that and the HR20. Yeah, I started with TiVo, but the fact is a lot of the things a TiVotee loves about that platform, I have no use for, like "Suggestions". I don't believe I'll be doing Sunday Ticket this year, so DLB isn't crucial. I don't use that for anything other than Sports.

TiVo's a fine DVR platform, but I've found in this day and age, it's not the only solution out there.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

Sellout. 

Retired my last one at the end of last month. Welcome to the club!

FWIW, I have 5 HR10s, an R-10, SDVR-40 and a SDVR-120 sitting on the shelf. Not sure what to do with them.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

I kept my Tivo HDVR2 when I got my HR20 in January. After two months I deactivated it and don't miss it one bit.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

This thread won't set well with the TCF surfers.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

TCF thinks posts like this are all from DirecTV employees. Many think there is no way the HR20 is any good since they "heard" that it was crap. Sigh....

As for me, I have 2 SD DirecTivos. The plan is to replace one of them with another HR20. 80+ HD channels is gonna fill 2 tuners up REAL fast. I need 4 HD tuners. The other Tivo will remain on the SD TV. I also can't bring myself to get an R15.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> I couldn't bring myself to get an R15 either--SD is dead so I went with another HR20
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


HR20-700 is too loud for the foot of the bed. If I could be sure of getting an HR20-100 I might consider it.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> HR20-700 is too loud for the foot of the bed. If I could be sure of getting an HR20-100 I might consider it.


I don't hear a thing from any of my 3 -700's.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

put hr20 in closet and run cables


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

I'm down to my last HR10-250 and I never watch it. It's there only to record programs for me to turn into mpeg files. Which I can do without even bringing it out of standby.

And I don't miss using it one bit.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> TCF thinks posts like this are all from DirecTV employees. Many think there is no way the HR20 is any good since they "heard" that it was crap. Sigh....
> 
> As for me, I have 2 SD DirecTivos. The plan is to replace one of them with another HR20. 80+ HD channels is gonna fill 2 tuners up REAL fast. I need 4 HD tuners. The other Tivo will remain on the SD TV. I also can't bring myself to get an R15.


Well - if they think I am an employee, they can go back and look at my posting history.

There is another thing for which I need to give Kudos to D* for:

From a business perspective, D* recognizes that having the subscriber base is more important than making money on the box. Tivo wants WAY too much money for their HD box, and they just won't budge on the price. DirecTV is willing to make deals on the HR20 in order to keep their subscribers happy. That is wise. And I give them big credit for doing so. And in fact - every time they do that, they are pounding another nail in Tivos coffin. Tivo needs to start giving away their HD box if they want to compete with D*'s signal + HD Lineup + DVR box.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not going to just do a 180. I'm just saying the HR20 is now a worthy upgrade. Now that most of the bugs are worked out, it can stand toe to toe with TIVO and surpass it in many areas.

However, Tivo got it right with simplicity, and intuitiveness. And so, thats what will be missed, but not as much anymore.

The point of my post - is for all the Tivo lovers out there (like me). If you have been waiting, wait no more.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

JayW,

Same situation here ...

Just retired the last HR10 (TiVo). No regrets.

The HR20 has been primetime for a while.

DLB would make it a no-brainer but even without DLB the HR20 competes very well.

-------------------------
*AU9 Slimline Dish* to *DirecTV 8-Channel SWM* 
*D* DVR1-HR20*: SWM2, Component to Denon to HD Plasma, S-Video to Slingbox Pro, Composite to Whole Home Modulator, 720P Native Off, e-SATA to Rosewill w/Seagate 750GB DB35
*D* DVR2-HR20*: SWM1 w/PI, Component to Denon #2 to HD Plasma #2, 720P Native Off
*D* DVR3-HR20*: SWM2, HDMI to HD LCD, 720P Native Off
*D-Link DGL-4100* Gigabit Router with all connected


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

From my point of view, a lot of my customers like the R15/HR20. The main thing they like is that the menus, guides and so on are the same as their D10/11/12s. They like that. D* hit the mark on that point.

A year ago when I started installing, I had a DTivo. I loved the thing. I could pretty much zip around the menus without waiting for the screen to update. Now, its painfully slow to use.

Tivo needs to come down off their high horse and do whatever they can to get their boxes in the hands of customers whatever the cost. Otherwise, we might as well start a Tivo death watch pool.


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## lflorack (Dec 16, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> HR20-700 is too loud for the foot of the bed. If I could be sure of getting an HR20-100 I might consider it.


That's interesting, my HR20-700 is pretty queit. Maybe it's because I can't hear......:grin:


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

You folks must be very forgiving.

Now I've only had my HR20 since Tuesday. What I will say is it ain't half bad. But the general description I have at this time is that it's "clumsy"....for lack of a better word. Why would I even think that to view/manage my SLs I have to go into SETUP?

#1) The Remote: What chimp designed this? You have volume mid remote and trick play at the top. A remote should be handled expertly with one hand without the need to move the remove up and down in that hand. Just look at any Harmony remote or even a Tivo. No real big deal as I have a Harmony 880 and the RC34 is going in the "remote bin".

#2) Trick play just isn't crisp like my HR10, the guide is no speedier and has 2 less channels on it. Maybe after you use the HR20 for a few months or a year you get use to it. But sometimes it seems ok and other times it seems I'm in some type of time delay and things just take longer...or maybe it's just the beers kicking in.  Also, the Slip just doesn't cut it.

#3) Already ran into some problem with the live buffer in which I put a show on pause (mpeg2) to fix lunch, came back and watched another 20 minutes before it got to a point it just froze. Thinking about it the point it froze was probably the point in the live show that I came back and resumed playing. I could RR and tried FF and the slip to get past the "dead zone" with no luck. Channel up and down didn't even clear up the problem. Oh well, it was just an old Bond movie and I moved on.

#4) Watched a recorded MPEG4 (local channel) last night and experienced frame shots from the NBC show that was currently being aired while playing the recorded program. I was watching the NBC Nightly news and say frame shots of the 1 in 100 game show. News was recorded at 5:30 and I was watching about 7:00-7:30.

#5) Audio dropouts (1-3 seconds) on SD programming and video pixelation also on SD programming. More than with the HR10.

#6) Wife hates it.

But I'm giving it time. And maybe that's the trick. Over time HR10 users forget how responsive that was. They forget about Wishlists and suggestions. And over time I may too. But as the OP mentioned, I will not forget about DLBs.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

Yep, I'm fully committed. I finally sold my HR10-250 on fleaBay.

Now, once the R15 gets stable, we'll talk about replacing all the standard-def TiVo's I have .... we'll see.

The way I see it - since I paid the DVR lifetime fee, whether I have 10 'regular' receivers on my account or 10 DVR's, it costs me exactly the same. So why not have DVR's?

The initial acquisition costs have been higher, of course. My first DTiVo (GXCEBOT) I picked up in 2001 for $75. It was selling for $200+ at the time, but I bought the floor model at Circuit City. The rest of them were either $75 or less.

I'd say I've made back that investment by now.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

Does it have a UHF remote? How many tuners?


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> You folks must be very forgiving.


Or you're too devoted.


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## shendley (Nov 28, 2005)

I retired my HR10 several months ago. And then a couple of months later it died. Got a second HR20 in its place! I think it knew its time was up and sacrificed itself so that a new, more worthy, and free (!) HR20 could take its place.


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## ejd (Aug 20, 2006)

My HR10 retired itself many months ago. It was always rebooting.
The HR20 is at a point now that I don't miss it anymore, even without DLB. But it did serve me well in the early days of the HR20 when it was far from reliable.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

bidger said:


> Or you're too devoted.


To what?


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

The TiVo platform. That's not a shortcoming, but that's just how it is for some. They're hard-wired to one DVR. Ask the typical UTV user about other DVR platforms or how the Replay TV user felt about features that pushed the envelope. 

Some are just more flexible. I have a friend who I gave a lifetime TiVo to who went to the Time-Warner DVR for HD because they didn't want to shell out for the S3. The only complaint I heard was the TWC DVR didn't do Wishlists.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

To me it's never been about Tivo vs HR-20. Sure there are some features from the Tivo I miss like Suggestions and better guide data.
It is more about reliability. The T60s we had were very, very reliable the HR20s are not.
Oh, and after going over to a friend's house last night and using their Tivo "peanut" control...I once again realized how badly laid-out/designed the HR-20's remote is.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Ken S said:


> Oh, and after going over to a friend's house last night and using their Tivo "peanut" control...I once again realized how badly laid-out/designed the HR-20's remote is.




Are you not using the Logitech remote in your sig?

Yeah, the TiVo remote is nice, but it's limited over how many components it can control. My MX-600 was well worth the investment.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bidger said:


> Are you not using the Logitech remote in your sig?
> 
> Yeah, the TiVo remote is nice, but it's limited over how many components it can control. My MX-600 was well worth the investment.


Yes, we are using the Logitech. But we have two other HR-20s in different rooms that are controlled with the native remote.


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## jhstn58 (May 28, 2007)

i haven't made the swwitch...yet. I'm struggling wih giving up the DLBs. I use them all the time.


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## lflorack (Dec 16, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> You folks must be very forgiving.


Could be I suppose. However, sometimes I think a lot of discontent is based on the change. Sure, it's different. That, in itself, doesn't make it worse. It just makes it different. I had two SD Tivo's for a long time. Still have one on an SD TV in a room away from my main Home Theater setup. So, I'm comparing the two units pretty much all the time.

*Highlight pluses for the HR-20-700*

*It does HD!* -- and it handles MPEG4. This is obviously *HUGE!*
It's a LOT faster in just about everything it does
Single show recording setup is simple (and fast)
SL's setups are simple (and fast)

*Highlight pluses for the SA Tivo Series2 *

The menus are pretty intuitive and easy to use
It's absolutely rock solid reliable
Suggestions are a great way to discover new programming I might be interested in
Searches are a bit more powerful

I'm sure I missed some on both sides, but I did this quickly.

I gave the rock-solid plus to Tivo but the HR20 is really not very far behind in most areas -- however, it is still behind. The big HR20 plus for me is that it is HD capable. That's a hard one to ignore. All in all, based on where the HR20 is and what it currently delivers (and what it continues to improve toward), I'm very happy with the HR20. Am I easy to please, maybe. But, I don't think so.

BTW, DLB isn't very important to me. (SA Tivos never had it anyway.)


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm one of those people who will wait until I'm forced to get an HR20, or find an alternative that allows me use a Tivo.

I believe that Direct rushed a product to market and that the results are they've gotten a lot of help from a lot of people and have come up with a mediocre product as most cable companies have.

A lot of Tivo users have come to expect quality and ease of use. I don't see that in the HR20. A lot of people that change dvrs are expecting to find a better machine. All I see is that this unit will do mpeg4, which of course is a big deal if you want to be able to watch Direct's upcoming HD. So, this box is not impressive, in fact far from it due to its spotted past.

I'm sure there are many Tivo users that have come to accept the box, maybe even a few that actually like it, but my impression is that those of us who truly enjoy our Tivos will find this a giant step backwards.

Most comments I read say yeah, this box is okay, but it ain't a Tivo. That to me is not a glowing endorsement of a new product. 

And of course the biggest reason that I'll wait to see what the market bears is Directs arrogance. I'm glad to see that direct appears to be listening to its customers. My question is, why didn't they listen years ago when the stand alone Tivos had all of the features that they wouldn't turn on for us DTivo users?

I believe they are listening to HR20 users now, because they have all this free help plus the fact that they came out with a disastrous product and probably would have had a riot on their hands if they couldn't get something to work half way decent in a short period of time. Most companies that put a product out like that would have been laughed off the streets.

When I canceled my NFLST a couple of weeks ago (not paying $350 to watch HD football), the lady told me they would ship an HR20 for $19.95. I asked one question - "is there a 30-day try it program - if you don't like it, send it back and there will be no 2-year commitment"? Her answer was that Direct has $800 in the box. Well, so what? They could just give the box to the next person on the list if I didn't like it. Instead, they have to lock me in for two years, whether I like it or not.

So, I'm not ready to sign up for a mediocre product with a company that I no longer have high esteem. My customer number with Direct is 13000, so you can imagine how long I've been a customer. Yet, I'm now looking at alternatives and one of the main reasons is because of what they've done with the Tivo customers and the Tivo replacements - settling for 'good enough'.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Since I said some folks are devoted to a DVR platform, I should admit that my preference is towards DIRECTV as a programming provider for several reasons:
1) I have waivers for FOX and CBS in HD and TWC doesn't provide them.
2) NFL Network.
3) Lifetime DVR service, which has remained intact through my upgrade to HD.

That being said, I didn't just throw out the TiVo DVRs when I migrated. I waited for the HR and the MCE 2005 to prove that they would be worthy replacements. Mission accomplished. If it hadn't happened, I had the TiVos as fallback. But the fact is, as time went on, I had the nagging question, "I should keep the TiVos because ________", and I couldn't fill in the blank. I used them less and less and I couldn't justify holding onto them. I figured someone else would make better use of them than I was at that point.

If the two platforms hadn't proven themselves to me, I wouldn't have made excuses, I'd have made adjustments and they would have been out the door and TiVo would have reclaimed the top spot. That didn't happen though.

Could I be persuaded to leave DIRECTV? If another provider can meet at least the first 2 of the reasons I listed for staying. Maybe my priorities might change, but right now it's programming followed by DVR functionality. Could I go back to TiVo? I don't want to say never to anything, but to this point, I don't see any compelling reason(s).


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I'm one of those people who will wait until I'm forced to get an HR20, or find an alternative that allows me use a Tivo.


Your choice.



> I believe that Direct rushed a product to market and that the results are they've gotten a lot of help from a lot of people and have come up with a mediocre product as most cable companies have.


You're wrong about that unless you use mediocre to describe TiVo. The HR20 was WAY further along at release than the first DtiVo that took 9 months to enable the second tuner on beta.



> A lot of Tivo users have come to expect quality and ease of use. I don't see that in the HR20. A lot of people that change dvrs are expecting to find a better machine. All I see is that this unit will do mpeg4, which of course is a big deal if you want to be able to watch Direct's upcoming HD. So, this box is not impressive, in fact far from it due to its spotted past.


You don't see anything in the HR20 because you only view it through your love affair with TiVo. Try it or shut up already. You don't know what you're talking about.

On top of Mpeg4 it gives:
FSI
Single tuner use for overlapping shows
Bulk play
Bulk delete
Quick Menu
Interactive features
30 sec slip that doesn't disappear
Fast setup of SL
Fast EVERYTHING compared to EVERY TiVo
PIG
Autocorrection enable/disable
90 min buffer
Better conflict resolution--actually choose which show not to record instead of tivo's choice
No yellow star advertising or PTCM's that take control of your unit

The list goes on, but you'd have to try it.



> I'm sure there are many Tivo users that have come to accept the box, maybe even a few that actually like it, but my impression is that those of us who truly enjoy our Tivos will find this a giant step backwards.


Again, you're wrong. you don't enjoy your TiVo more than I enjoyed mine. I doubt you had yours sooner or for as long as I did. Again, you don't know what you're talking about but you're willing to bet others will find your baseless conclusion too. Your logic is mind boggling.



> Most comments I read say yeah, this box is okay, but it ain't a Tivo. That to me is not a glowing endorsement of a new product.


Read the thread you're in {edit un-neighborly word}. These are the guys that blazed the trail for the Dtivo back in 2000.



> And of course the biggest reason that I'll wait to see what the market bears is Directs arrogance. I'm glad to see that direct appears to be listening to its customers. My question is, why didn't they listen years ago when the stand alone Tivos had all of the features that they wouldn't turn on for us DTivo users?


Now we're getting to it. You don't want the commitment. Try to get an SA TiVo without one. That's the landscape for these products, not DTV's arrogance.



> I believe they are listening to HR20 users now, because they have all this free help plus the fact that they came out with a disastrous product and probably would have had a riot on their hands if they couldn't get something to work half way decent in a short period of time. Most companies that put a product out like that would have been laughed off the streets.


Really, we didn't laugh TiVo off the street in 2000 with their single tuner DTivo that took months to become stable and then months more to activate the second tuner when UTV had it already. We worked with TiVo then and it's the same people working with DTV now. DTV is just simply 1 million times swifter and able to make these changes quickly. Tivo's development speed can be measured in that Comcast box that's about 2 years late now.



> So, I'm not ready to sign up for a mediocre product with a company that I no longer have high esteem. My customer number with Direct is 13000, so you can imagine how long I've been a customer. Yet, I'm now looking at alternatives and one of the main reasons is because of what they've done with the Tivo customers and the Tivo replacements - settling for 'good enough'.


DTV won't miss you. Go follow TiVo and get what you deserve. What you have is a mediocre product. it's essentially and equivalent DVR with suggestions that in September will only receive about 1/2 of the programming you want. Nice unit!

Xaa


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

Wow - my first post to the forum and already I'm being called names.  I guess he didn't want to know why some people weren't drinking the Cool Aid.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

You didn't provide any reasons other thatn "I heard it ain't super fantastic".

You're rant had no substance.

I drank your Kool Aid too RS4, before you did. I drank more and enjoyed it more. There are other drinks out there. I'm not saying that you'll prefer what I like, but you can't know if you'll like it regardless of how many times you tell yourself it stinks. Open your mind and try it.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I'm one of those people who will wait until I'm forced to get an HR20, or find an alternative that allows me use a Tivo.


It's a nice summer day and I should sit back, relax, and have a Pina Colada but it's posts like these that get the blood flowing ...

Background: Been with D* for a very long time. They mention "A List" customer whenever I call. Also been a Cablevision cable customer for a very long time. Had D* on the 3 primary TV's (Me, Wife, Kids) and Cablevision throughout the house on the other 5 TV's. Two of the D* boxes are also modulated to two cable channels and available to all of the cable connected TV's in the house.

I spent a few months doing an analysis of D* vs Cable vs FIOS and HR10 vs HR20 vs Series3. For FIOS TV (which just became available in my neighborhood), I didn't actually get a box, just used the write-ups and forums for info.

The net result was that the winner was the HR20 with D*.

We now have three HR20's and I can honestly say that we have zero problems. I can not speak for others. Usually, when I make a post about zero problems, then a number of people post that they have issues. We have zero issues.

And this is not a biased sample. I'm a techy and love this stuff but the wife and kids are joe-average consumers. Not a single peep in several months.

Yes, the HR20 had issues at the beginning. But now (for us) it is 100% reliable. 100%.

Was I ready to revolt when the TiVo relationship was discontinued? Yes. Did I lose my mind when the original HR20 missed a recording? Yes. Was I ticked off when I learned that the HR20 didn't do DLB? Yes. Was I unhappy when I couldn't swap out the drive in the original HR20 with a large drive? Yes. Did I love the Series3 from mid-September to late December? Yes. Did I love the TiVo peanut remote especially the Glo-remote. Yes.

But today, July 2007, everyone in the house would pick the HR20.

We have zero issues, all three HR20's have 750GB eSATA drives, they're all ethernet connected (and ready for VOD), the family loves the picture-in-guide, kids are excited that NFL Sunday Ticket will be available throughout the house, they're now totally comfortable with the D* remote, the screens are quicker and the one-button instantaneous record is super, both output connections are always "live" to allow for modulated channels throughout the house, and the slingbox works great so we can schedule recordings and watch remotely.

At this point, we only look forward. We don't worry about what happened in the past.

Looking forward to VOD, and hopefully DLB, and ~100 HD channels by year-end, and maybe D* ToGo (via USB), and MRV. The D* development team in California totally owns the development platform and hopefully have 100% control of whatever goodies they dream up next.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

RS4's appearance just proves I was right in post # 12.

A real TiVo fan doesn't ask for someone else to _bring_ them TiVo, they go get it. I can respect the folks on TCF who back up their words with action and threw down for a S3 and switched providers or who went ATSC OTA exclusively. Your attitude seems to be someone has to bring TiVo to you, which means you love TiVo *conditionally*, probably on the condition that it costs you $5-$6/mo, not $14-$17/mo. or $299 three year prepay. That, IMO, isn't real love.

Where others chose to follow TiVo, I decided to check out alternatives and that required investments on my part. It also required testing and comparison to either prove or disprove their viability, another area you don't seem to want to venture into. If you're going to rely on second hand opinions to make your determination, while dismissing any who offer positive assessment of other platforms, it shows your bias quite clearly. I can see who's drinking _Kool_ Aid.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Wow - my first post to the forum and already I'm being called names.  I guess he didn't want to know why some people weren't drinking the Cool Aid.


Oh, yeah, cause nobody here has read your diatribes about the HR20 on tivocommunity. And you joined here just to bash the machine.

You just don't get it. These are the SAME PEOPLE who were Tivo fanatics who are jumping on the HR20.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

tonyd79 said:


> Oh, yeah, cause nobody here has read your diatribes about the HR20 on tivocommunity. And you joined here just to bash the machine.
> 
> You just don't get it. These are the SAME PEOPLE who were Tivo fanatics who are jumping on the HR20.


Agree. I was one of them. I debated Earl in 4Q2006 that the Series3 was better then the HR20.

All has changed since.

HR20 is now the choice. Plain and simple. As I posted earlier.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

I've kept my mouth shut over at TiVocommunity. Here I won't. To quote you, RS4, "It's a shame that a few guys can really put the sour in a forum. I'm disappointed that they don't have enough decency to discuss the products openly instead of trying to hijack the forum and jam something down our throat that most people could care less about." 

Using your logic, this is an HR20 forum. Do you have any experience with the HR20 or are you just blinded by your loyalty to TiVo? Most of us here have owned both systems. I have four HR10-250s sitting on a shelf collecting dust because they don't do what my HR20 can. I've been a TiVo fan since discovering them in 2001. I even have a TiVo coffee mug at work and one at home. Heck, I'm wearing my ValueElectronics TiVo T-shirt as I type this. How much time with an HR20 have you actually spent to form your opinions of this machine?


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Xaa said:


> Read the thread you're in ...


Xaa, while I'm on your side-of-the -fence for this debate, your name-calling wasn't appropriate. If I were you, I'd edit the post.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

I'd like nothing better then to try it, but I'm certainly going to commit to a 2-year contract without first trying it, especially with the mediocre reviews I read from Tivo owners.

If this were a cable company, I'd be able to return the box if I didn't like it, but Direct decides that they can't afford to do that. Okay - so I'll have to go by what I read.

I too had an early DTivo because I could only use one receiver for a while, but in all of the years I've had my Tivos, I've never lost recordings. I believe that I didn't have the quality issues that Direct is having with the HR20.

You all make excuses that because this box is new, it's totally acceptable for it to not even do basic functions until 9 months after being on the market. That to me is not a product that I would think much of. Instead, it only heightens my feelings that Direct didn't have a clue as to what they were doing and now you're stuck with a mediocre product that will probably improve over time.

The dvr industry has been around for many years, but yet Direct comes out with their own product (after having miserably failed with the NDS box) like they had never even looked at the other boxes in the market. The one example I point to is the OTA feature. It seems they decide to use 3rd generation technology when 5th generation is available. Then too, they try to get the dvr to scan for local over the air signals and can't even get that to work, so you're faced with a crapshoot - am I going to be able to receive my local channels based on my zip code?

Ask yourself how many people would be getting this box if they didn't want mpeg4 and of course the answer would be considerably less. 

So, it's not necessary to call me names when I try to explain what to most people would be obvious reasons why they will wait. I'm merely trying to point out that this is in fact a bleeding edge group and there is nothing wrong with that. But, you don't need to jump all over us when most people don't want to put up with the quality of product that Direct has come out with. 

We'll wait until we're forced into it, or we'll move along to another supplier. A lot of us would prefer that Direct and Tivo come to an agreement that would give us a Tivo mpeg4. If that doesn't happen, then a lot of us will move.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Sixto said:


> Xaa, while I'm on your side-of-the -fence for this debate, your name-calling wasn't appropriate. If I were you, I'd edit the post.


Yep, this troller caught me.

Edit made, thanks for the guidance back Sixto.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I'd like nothing better then to try it


Then until you do, you may want to disclaimer your posts with a "I never used an HR20, but this is what I hear..." or "The following opinion is based on hearsay"

That would be like me going over to a Mac forum and say how awful it is because it doesn't do something a PC can. I've never touched a Mac and I've only heard opinions. But since I heard them they must be true.

Find someone with an HR20 and take it for a spin before spewing FUD over here.

I'm done with this thread.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

RS4 said:


> And of course the biggest reason that I'll wait to see what the market bears is Directs arrogance.


How about we talk for awhile about TiVo's arrogance. It seems to me a company with Apple arrogance, but no iPod to back it up.

Everyone likes to see them as the little guy that gets pushed around, but let's follow their business model for awhile. Outside of the estimated 15 % of the nation that gets their programming exclusively over-the-air, some of those are S1 or S2 TiVo owners with their fingers crossed that those units will be able to control the ATSC converter boxes in Feb. 2009, everyone else uses a multichannel provider of some form. TiVo is a middle man in the chain, they don't provide programming, but they make their coin recording it. I can't blame cable and satellite who look at that situation and say, "TiVo didn't help pay for the fiber to be laid or the satellites to be launched, but they're taking cash from the DVR side". No wonder these companies find ways to lock TiVo out.

This is also the company who when DIRECTV announced they were moving on, shunned an agreement with Comcast. :eek2: They had to make a leadership change to reach an agreement! That's one of the reasons why people level the charge that they are clueless.

Look at how long it took them to offer multi service discounts, and even now they're highly conditional. They were more or less forced to offer them because folks were insistent why DIRECTV subs got a "one price covers all DVRs" and they had to pay full price.

Those are some of the reasons why when I see people say DIRECTV is entirely responsible for the severance of the relationship, I'm dubious.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

RS4 said:


> You all make excuses that because this box is new


Don't make assumptions like that! It's the reason you're being called a troll. I stated quite clearly, as have others, if it didn't perform, it would be gone. What part of that don't you grasp?


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

I never implied that I didn't own an HR20. In fact, I said that everything I had read... I was merely responding to the original poster as to why Tivo people weren't flocking to the product.

You guys pounce on me because you don't really want to know what other people think. There are still lots and lots of Tivo people who don't like the HR20, but you don't want to hear that here. In fact most of the opinions seem to be on the order - yeah it's ok, but if I could have a Tivo, that's where I'd be. That alone tells me that this product has a long way to go before it will reach a high satisfaction level that Tivo enjoys.

I'm glad you're helping Direct develop their product. I'm glad for this forum because it certainly lets be know that I'm not trying the HR20 if I have to sign up for a 2-year commitment without a trial period.

If you guys don't want an honest outside opinion as to why many Tivo lovers are swooping down and gobbling up this product, fine. Many of us just compare this product to any cable dvr box. The difference is, that we can't try it out, and Direct has no other box for the mpeg4 enthusiast, so you're stuck.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I never implied that I didn't own an HR20.


Quote from RS4 at 12:00PM ET on 7/1/2007: "I'm one of those people who will wait until I'm forced to get an HR20" ... seems like a fairly strong implication.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

I guess I don't understand. The poster seemed to imply that I was trolling and didn't own an HR20. I was merely trying to point out that in fact I didn't own an HR20 and was trying to be open about that, not hide something.

Also, I was just trying to get you folks to realize that many Tivo lovers do not feel this product compares to the quality they enjoy with the Tivo.

Instead, I get bashed for stating what is obvious to most people.

Thanks.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I was just trying to get you folks to realize that many Tivo lovers do not feel this product compares to the quality they enjoy with the Tivo.


If (as you state) your purpose of joining this forum and making your first post was to have us "realize that many Tivo lovers do not feel this product compares to the quality they enjoy with the Tivo.".

Well, consider it mission accomplished, some now "realize that many Tivo lovers do not feel this product compares to the quality they enjoy with the Tivo" and we can all now move on to enjoying the HR20 and the next Pina Colada ...


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

RS4 said:


> There are still lots and lots of Tivo people who don't like the HR20, but you don't want to hear that here.


We don't want to hear that here because *we don't care* what you and your zealot buddies at TCF think about the HR20. There's nothing "Direct" (it's DIRECTV, if you've been with them as long as you say, you should know that) could ever do to make you guys like the HR20. It's not a Tivo, so therefore it's crap.


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## FreddyC (May 14, 2007)

Alright, I'm a newb to this forum and maybe I can turn the direction of this thread a little bit.

I have been a DirecTV customer since 1995. I have two Tivo's and love them. BUT, I now have an HDTV and I think it's time that I go in the direction of the HR20.

Not to hijack the thread, but since it was started by a person who obviously had a strong love for Tivo, but is now sold on the HR20, I feel it kind of fits.....

What am I going to hate most about switching? Are there any "surprises" I may need to be aware of when I make the switch? Any extra info concerning the HR20 that may be relevant, I would appreciate. 

Thanks, Freddy


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

Yes, in fact you're quite right. Direct used to be a company that I enjoyed being a client of, in fact I sent many friends and relatives there way. I believe that since Murdoch took over the company, they have lost site of the customer. They don't care what you or I want - they only care about the bottom line.

So, they dumped Tivo, or Tivo dumped them, or for whatever reason, they are no longer together. For that reason, they came out with another product to replace the Tivo, but that was a failure and they decided to make one of their own.

Now, their only solution seems to be 'our way' or the highway. Of course, if they faith in the product, I'd get to try it out at least for 15 or 30 days - the way I could if I were with a cable company.

So, yes you are correct. Many of us won't accept those terms with that quality of a product. I was merely trying to respond to the OP as to why many people don't think much of this product at this time.  

The exact opposite thing happens on the Tivo forum. People say something about the HR20 over there and we are bombarded with folks telling us what a marvel of technology when a simple pass through this forum reveals otherwise.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

FreddyC said:


> Alright, I'm a newb to this forum and maybe I can turn the direction of this thread a little bit.
> 
> I have been a DirecTV customer since 1995. I have two Tivo's and love them. BUT, I now have an HDTV and I think it's time that I go in the direction of the HR20.
> 
> ...


:welcome_s to DBStalk

The biggest thing the TiVo user that came to the HR20 do not like is that the HR20 does not have DLB (dual live buffers). It may get it down the road but there is no word yet. But I was a very long time TiVo user and loved TiVo but I now actually like the HR20 better.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

FreddyC, 

Be sure to read this forum carefully. If you love your Tivos, you'll find there is a wide range of opinions. If you need antenna to pick up over the air signals that Direct doesn't broadcast, then buyer beware. You'll find that what you can pick up OTA depends on what Direct has in their database, as much as the capability of the equipment. And that's one example of what I suggest as reading this forum carefully.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

Equally perturbing to many Tivo lovers is the user interface. Many people feel the UI is not intuitive.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

First off, a warm welcome, RS4. :welcome_s

I'm sorry something has stirred impolite behavior, normally things aren't quite so bad. I understand each of your points as well as the more salient points made by others. 

I hope we all find the DVR of our dreams. IMHO, DIRECTV is heading in the right direction. The glimpses I've gathered from many sources look outstanding! (Now if they'd just add DLB to the plans...)

Now as moderator, I remind everyone, please keep it civil. I think I'm glad certain edits occurred before I caught up on this thread. RS4 does have valid points and reasons for his point of view. And others can have valid points as to why he should switch. But it is his choice and he is welcome here too.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

And a warm welcome to FreddyC, too. :welcome_s

Cheers,
Tom


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Now, their only solution seems to be 'our way' or the highway. Of course, if they faith in the product, I'd get to try it out at least for 15 or 30 days - the way I could if I were with a cable company.


When was DirecTV's solution ever NOT "our way" or the highway? Nothing has changed, there were no 15 or 30 day trials with Tivo. Why are you complaining about this as if it were something new?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> When was DirecTV's solution ever NOT "our way" or the highway? Nothing has changed, there were no 15 or 30 day trials with Tivo. Why are you complaining about this as if it were something new?


Why are you complaining about a good customer focus thing DIRECTV could add. It's not too late to add this. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Why are you complaining about a good customer focus thing DIRECTV could add. It's not too late to add this.


Oh no, don't get me wrong. I would love to see DirecTV add some sort of "test drive" program for new receivers. It would be great. But he's complaining as if he had some sort of trial program when he got his beloved Tivo, which he most certainly did not. Tivo doesn't even offer a trial for the SAs. If you choose to enter into a contract, you're locked in.


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> Why are you complaining about a good customer focus thing DIRECTV could add. It's not too late to add this.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


He's not complaining about the thing DTV could add, he's pointing out the complaint that it does not exist with this DVR seems weakened by the fact that it never has existed.

So be careful of your complaints about complaints of complaints. They are just that and not complaints about things we want. 

Xaa


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

You obviously have not read some of my past TIVO posts. I am telling you, as a die hard TIVO fan, if you have been waiting, now is the time. The HR20 is no longer a 'beta' product. Its solid. Its reliable. Its HD. If you search my past posts you will read things not unlike what you are saying. As someone who has used both now for 9 months, I can say, the HR20's time has come.



RS4 said:


> I'm one of those people who will wait until I'm forced to get an HR20, or find an alternative that allows me use a Tivo.
> 
> I believe that Direct rushed a product to market and that the results are they've gotten a lot of help from a lot of people and have come up with a mediocre product as most cable companies have.
> 
> ...


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> You obviously have not read some of my past TIVO posts. I am telling you, as a die hard TIVO fan, if you have been waiting, now is the time. The HR20 is no longer a 'beta' product. Its solid. Its reliable. Its HD. If you search my past posts you will read things not unlike what you are saying. As someone who has used both now for 9 months, I can say, the HR20's time has come.


Deaf ears. Give it up. He only joined here to campaign against the HR20. No other reason. This argument existed on tivocommunity and now he decided that he is going to educate us because we are all shills. He knows what is best for us.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

RS4 said:


> I'd like nothing better then to try it, but I'm certainly going to commit to a 2-year contract without first trying it, especially with the mediocre reviews I read from Tivo owners.


I CHALLENGE you to try it. I bet if you gave it 1-3 months, you would part ways with your TIVO forever. I was one to give the box a mediocre review 9 months ago. I'm telling you now, its not that box anymore. Its a much better box.

D* will let you out of your 2 year contract if you cry enough, but I assume that would require a little effort.

Try it for a few months, then come back and slam it. If you were to be honest, I bet you eat your words.

Up for it? Or is there an excuse? Afraid to pull the trigger? Try it.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

RS4 said:


> I guess I don't understand. The poster seemed to imply that I was trolling and didn't own an HR20. I was merely trying to point out that in fact I didn't own an HR20 and was trying to be open about that, not hide something.
> 
> Also, I was just trying to get you folks to realize that many Tivo lovers do not feel this product compares to the quality they enjoy with the Tivo.
> 
> ...


And the point I am trying to make is that I WAS one of those TIVO people, and I am now trying to tell other TIVO people that the WATER IS NOW FINE. COME ON IN. 
THE PRODUCT IS READY.

Here - look at my posting history....

http://www.dbstalk.com/search.php?searchid=2085845


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## Hoffer (Jun 18, 2007)

I said goodbye to TiVo yesterday. I had TiVo for 6 years almost to the day. I got the HR20 yesterday in anticipation for the MPEG-4 national channels. I figured I'd get the receiver early in case there was a backlog around the time the channels launch.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm merely trying to point out a switch in the way Direct now treats its customers. I think it used to be that if I bought a DTivo box and didn't like it, I would be able to return it and get out of my obligation with Direct, or at the most, had a year's obligation. That simply is not the case anymore. I must sign up for a two-year obligation.

I think that if Direct really were customer-centric, they would allow a trial period for existing customers, however, here again, that is not the case. Especially, because the replacement box does not enjoy a great reputation.

I believe their were over 3 million Direct customers with a Tivo box. I would think Direct would be bending over backwards to try to keep that group of folks because I would bet that is some of their biggest spenders. Instead, it appears to me that they are alienating us.

I honestly would gladly enjoy looking at the HR20 and giving it a test run. But, I am currently finished with my last 2-year commitment and I will not sign up for another if I have serious doubts about the box. Many of you are former Tivo owners and you love the new box. I'm glad for you. But I also read here and other places, where former Tivo (an non-Tivo) owners do not like the box and are having all kinds of problems with it. So, my question to Direct is, if you are so customer-centric, why not let those of us who wish to try it, actually try it with some sort of 15 or 30-day trial?

You folks seem to thing I'm on here to bash the HR20. I'm just trying to point out what other people think. I'm trying to let you know what the perception is in the market place by many people such as myself. I realize that many of you have put many hours of blood sweat and tears into making this box become the box that we would like it to be. I'm merely trying to say that many many people are still doubtful and what Direct could do to win us over.

I can assure Direct that I will be the first to leave if I find an acceptable alternative, and they have no one to blame except themselves. If the box is as good as everyone says, then Direct should let us try it. My opinion is that in fact, it is not yet meet the caliber of the Tivo and that Direct is afraid of losing more of us if the actually let us try it. Instead, they're hoping that they can get a decent product by the end of the next year and a half and that many people will forget about the current mess. At the same time, they're hoping the rest of us won't abandon them in droves.

BTW, thanks to the moderator for your welcome.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

RS4 said:


> I'm merely trying to point out a switch in the way Direct now treats its customers. I think it used to be that if I bought a DTivo box and didn't like it, I would be able to return it and get out of my obligation with Direct, or at the most, had a year's obligation. That simply is not the case anymore. I must sign up for a two-year obligation.
> 
> I think that if Direct really were customer-centric, they would allow a trial period for existing customers, however, here again, that is not the case. Especially, because the replacement box does not enjoy a great reputation.


And an S3 TiVO is 700 bucks. I don't know how much the hr20 costs to produce (anyone?) but i am sure D*'s thinking is that they have to recover their cost for the box, and the best way to do that is to tell customers they are in a 2 year commitment.

I bet if you hated the box, they would let you out or do something to make it right.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

RS4 said:


> I believe their were over 3 million Direct customers with a Tivo box. I would think Direct would be bending over backwards to try to keep that group of folks because I would bet that is some of their biggest spenders. Instead, it appears to me that they are alienating us.


You need to stop saying "us" as if you represent all of the current and past Tivo owners. I've got a Tivo right now, and I don't feel like DirecTV is alienating me at all. They're alienating the Tivo zealots like you, who think anything without the Tivo name on it is garbage. But I can guarantee you that the vast majority of those 3 million *DIRECTV* customers with Tivo (or whatever the number was) really don't care about Tivo all that much. I am one of them.

The company's name is DIRECTV. Call them DirecTV, Directv, D*, or whatever. Calling them Direct is incorrect. Please stop, it's really obnoxious.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

And, actually, with the CE program and communication through this forum, DirecTV (well you stop calling it Direct...that is not its name nor a nickname...just shows your level of disrepect) is showing MORE customer orientation than Tivo has in the past. Tivo always keeps its new software secret and if you tell anyone you are testing it, you are toast. But, hey, they are more customer oriented.

My opinion of Tivo is that they pioneered the DVR land and did a great job. Their machines are pretty damned good, in the top tier. But they have become stagnant and their development cycle is horrible.

Oh, and their customer support? Don't ever try to call them. Or should I ignore those horror stories because they don't fit your profile of the companies.

And, given that DirecTV has very small churn, I somehow doubt those 3 million Tivo customers are leaving DirecTV.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> You need to stop saying "us" as if you represent all of the current and past Tivo owners. I've got a Tivo right now, and I don't feel like DirecTV is alienating me at all. They're alienating the Tivo zealots like you, who think anything without the Tivo name on it is garbage. But I can guarantee you that the vast majority of those 3 million *DIRECTV* customers with Tivo (or whatever the number was) really don't care about Tivo all that much. I am one of them.
> 
> The company's name is DIRECTV. Call them DirecTV, Directv, D*, or whatever. Calling them Direct is incorrect. Please stop, it's really obnoxious.


It's not that obnoxious...I'd rate typing in huge fonts much more obnoxious than the way he has mildly abbreviated their name.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> And an S3 TiVO is 700 bucks. I don't know how much the hr20 costs to produce (anyone?) but i am sure D*'s thinking is that they have to recover their cost for the box, and the best way to do that is to tell customers they are in a 2 year commitment.
> 
> I bet if you hated the box, they would let you out or do something to make it right.


The HR-20 cost was a little over $400 earlier in the year. Their C.E.O. was quoted as saying their price should drop by over $100 a unit during 2007...so I would guess that $299 will be just about at their cost.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

RS4 said:


> I think that if Direct really were customer-centric, they would allow a trial period for existing customers, however, here again, that is not the case. Especially, because the replacement box does not enjoy a great reputation.


You keep implying that the two year commitment is because of the reputation of the HR20. It is not. Any upgrade or additional equipment carries a commitment period. Upgrade your dish and you get a commitment. It is just their model. I don't necessarily think it is a good thing but you keep trying to use it against the HR20 when it has nothing specifically to do with the HR20.

They were requiring 2 year commitements when you added an HD Tivo. Guess that was because Tivo is a bad box?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> Tivo always keeps its new software secret and if you tell anyone you are testing it, you are toast. But, hey, they are more customer oriented.


And look at all of the new features Tivo has added that their customers have asked for. Like a free space indicator. Oh, wait...


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

I have 2 HR20's that don't get used at all in my house (I'm waiting for the new HD channels before I give up on Tivo). After getting them at the end of last year I tried to return them. After losing it the first couple of times I called DirecTV trying to return them, I soon figured out that although DirecTV will not allow me to return them, they will give me discount after discount to make me happy. All said I now have 2 HR20's and an extra $100.

Anyways I think it's great that allot of people here are happy with their HR20's and come this fall I hope that I too will be able to use my HR20’s without the trouble I experienced when I first got them, but after reading this thread I wonder how many of you converts would have stuck with the HR20 long enough to find out you liked them if DirecTV would have allowed returns.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

*"I really hate the way this new DTV box menu/recording process is set up and don't really want to start from scratch on the new box. Guess I was spoiled on my Tivo Season Pass manager..."*

I know that for as many of you who say you were former Tivo users, there are just as many Tivo users like the gentleman above. It's spread all over this and other forums.

The plain fact is that we see much of this kind of posting and none of the opposite posting that says the HR20 is the best thing since sliced bread. Instead, many of the former Tivo posts seem to say, it's ok. Well, that's fine for a lot of people, but the rest of us are looking for the 'wow' box. We just don't see that here.

As I mentioned earlier, yes I would gladly like to play with the new box for a few days, however I would be totally stupid to sign up for a 2-year commitment when I have doubts about the HR20 in the beginning and I have read and spoken to Direct. They flat out told me I'm locked in - that is not customer-centric.

There are many threads of people getting the box, hating it, returning it a few days later, only to be told by Direct, that they're hooked for 2 more years. Does that give you a feeling this company cares about me? Of course not, so I am dependent on others. When I see the grumbling quiet down, then I may consider the box. In the mean time, I keep looking elsewhere.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

RS4 said:


> The plain fact is that we see much of this kind of posting and none of the opposite posting that says the HR20 is the best thing since sliced bread.


The HR20 is the best thing since sliced bread. Way better than any Tivo. I wouldn't switch back to Tivo even if DirecTV offered to waive the DVR fee.

You are so blind that you don't even realize the fact that you're blind.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

RS4 said:


> * When I see the grumbling quiet down, then I may consider the box. In the mean time, I keep looking elsewhere.*


*

So what you are saying, is that posts like mine aren't indicative of the "grumbling" quieting down?*


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

RS4 said:


> *"I really hate the way this new DTV box menu/recording process is set up and don't really want to start from scratch on the new box. Guess I was spoiled on my Tivo Season Pass manager..."*
> 
> I know that for as many of you who say you were former Tivo users, there are just as many Tivo users like the gentleman above. It's spread all over this and other forums.


Why do you jump on every quote of someone who doesn't like the HR20 but ignore those who do?

BTW, yes it is really hard to do a season pass. Hmm, click record twice on the guide and you get a season pass. That is very hard. (Gee, easier than the Tivo!)

Oh, and moving priorities around. Gee, go in the prioritizer and move them up and down. Very hard. Want to change your options? Select the title in the prioritizer and click on "Record Series" to change options. Wow, how difficult.

You jump on sentences like the one written above and say "Gee, that box sucks!"



RS4 said:


> The plain fact is that we see much of this kind of posting and none of the opposite posting that says the HR20 is the best thing since sliced bread. Instead, many of the former Tivo posts seem to say, it's ok. Well, that's fine for a lot of people, but the rest of us are looking for the 'wow' box. We just don't see that here.


Huh? There is a wide variety of opinions but many of the Tivo lovers are not saying the box is okay, they are saying it is good. In fact, I have told you before that have almost never use my Tivo box anymore and use the HR20 80% of the time when recording or watching TV and they are side by side on the same remote. But you ignore those statements because they don't fit your agenda.



RS4 said:


> As I mentioned earlier, yes I would gladly like to play with the new box for a few days, however I would be totally stupid to sign up for a 2-year commitment when I have doubts about the HR20 in the beginning and I have read and spoken to Direct. They flat out told me I'm locked in - that is not customer-centric.
> 
> There are many threads of people getting the box, hating it, returning it a few days later, only to be told by Direct, that they're hooked for 2 more years. Does that give you a feeling this company cares about me? Of course not, so I am dependent on others. When I see the grumbling quiet down, then I may consider the box. In the mean time, I keep looking elsewhere.


And in the meantime, you will come here to pick a fight? What is wrong with you?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> So what you are saying, is that posts like mine aren't indicative of the "grumbling" quieting down?


The grumbling will have quieted down when the HR20 doesn't need to be reset 5 times a day, 75% of them aren't returned, it doesn't miss half of the shows it's supposed to record, and it turns into a Tivo.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> So what you are saying, is that posts like mine aren't indicative of the "grumbling" quieting down?


According to the threads on tivocommunity that RS participated in, you would be a DirecTV employee!


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> The grumbling will have quieted down when the HR20 doesn't need to be reset 5 times a day, 75% of them aren't returned, it doesn't miss half of the shows it's supposed to record, and it turns into a Tivo.


Not sure he will get your humor.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> Not sure he will get your humor.


A lot of people don't. :lol:


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> I have 2 HR20's that don't get used at all in my house (I'm waiting for the new HD channels before I give up on Tivo). After getting them at the end of last year I tried to return them. After losing it the first couple of times I called DirecTV trying to return them, I soon figured out that although DirecTV will not allow me to return them, they will give me discount after discount to make me happy. All said I now have 2 HR20's and an extra $100.
> 
> Anyways I think it's great that allot of people here are happy with their HR20's and come this fall I hope that I too will be able to use my HR20's without the trouble I experienced when I first got them, but after reading this thread I wonder how many of you converts would have stuck with the HR20 long enough to find out you liked them if DirecTV would have allowed returns.


I am so amazed at how easily you give up and waste your money and your hardware.

Bring them out of storage and use them. The software has come a long way since the end of the year. I hardly use my Tivo anymore.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

Yes JayW, I'm glad to read posts like yours. That's encouraging. But at the same time, look at posts from folks like bafuerst *"I have 2 HR20's that don't get used at all in my house (I'm waiting for the new HD channels before I give up on Tivo). After getting them at the end of last year I tried to return them. After losing it the first couple of times I called DirecTV trying to return them, I soon figured out that although DirecTV will not allow me to return them..."*

Yes, DirecTV (each discussion group has their own customs and apparently some folks really get excited if a newbie doesn't follow the custom) does have a 2-year commitment for any time you breathe nowadays. That's exactly why I'm so disappointed that I will not be getting the box until I feel like I will enjoy it. They are forcing me to depend on forums to determine if I'll like the box.

I'm at the point where I'm free to look around. I'm disappointed with what DirecTV has done in the past couple of years with relationship to the Tvio (and other) customers. They seem very arrogant to me, so I'm not rushing back in to another 2-year deal. I'm going to wait to see what folks say about HD lite and I'm going to see what happens to the HR20.

The DirecTV lady told me they had $800 in the box. That's fine, I'd be happy to return it and they can pass it on to someone else if I don't like it, but as we can see from the post above and from what she directly told me, that is a big no, no.

As for Tivo, I believe I can sign up for a month to month to at least try the box. Their current box is 600 with a 200 rebate and supposedly have a cheaper version by year end. I'm anxious to see where that goes, and where the switched HD goes.

We all deal with companies for an assortment of reasons. I have lost faith in DirecTV since being with them in 1994. I think they are just another company and below many others. Their approval ratings have gone down as most of the industry. In their case, they slipped a lot more in the ratings than most other companies, so clearly I am not alone in this feeling.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Yes JayW, I'm glad to read posts like yours. That's encouraging. But at the same time, look at posts from folks like bafuerst *"I have 2 HR20's that don't get used at all in my house (I'm waiting for the new HD channels before I give up on Tivo). After getting them at the end of last year I tried to return them. After losing it the first couple of times I called DirecTV trying to return them, I soon figured out that although DirecTV will not allow me to return them..."*
> 
> Yes, DirecTV (each discussion group has their own customs and apparently some folks really get excited if a newbie doesn't follow the custom) does have a 2-year commitment for any time you breathe nowadays. That's exactly why I'm so disappointed that I will not be getting the box until I feel like I will enjoy it. They are forcing me to depend on forums to determine if I'll like the box.


I agree with you that the 2 year commitment is steep. But for me it makes alot of sense. D*'s programming is superior to most others. And its cheaper. And soon, with the HR20, you will have all the VOD stuff as well. (Not that big of a deal to me, but it is to many others.) So if you figure all that in, with the fact the box is so inexpensive compared to the S3, it comes down to economics.

I took the 2 year commitment knowing that i am unlikely to switch providers anytime soon, and if I do, then I will try and get out of it.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

*"According to the threads on tivocommunity that RS participated in, you would be a DirecTV employee!"*

I purposely use the same signon to this forum as I did the other. Again, I'm not trying to hide anything. I'm just trying to point out there are plenty of folks like me that are still weary about changing boxes - first because of the quality and usability concerns and secondly because of the way DirecTV treats their customers.

Most of you folks have hundreds of posts here. That tells me that you have worked hard to make the box what it is today. I'm glad for that and am grateful for all of the hard work you've done. My point was to the original poster why many people do not want to jump into the new product.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> Oh, and moving priorities around. Gee, go in the prioritizer and move them up and down. Very hard. Want to change your options? Select the title in the prioritizer and click on "Record Series" to change options. Wow, how difficult.


I will say that after having my HR20 for a few days I did have to break open the manual (if you can call it that) to find out just where I needed to go to get into the "Prioritizer". I just always looked at "Setup" having menu items that were used to setup the box. I never would have thought the Prioritizer was under setup.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I'm just trying to point out there are plenty of folks like me that are still weary about changing boxes - first because of the quality and usability concerns and secondly because of the way DirecTV treats their customers.


RS4, it's fairly obvious from your posts today that you're just trying to stir it up (which is fine on a forum). But all these posts of "I'm just trying to point out ..." aren't really pointing out very much.

We are all very aware that there are fanboys and girls on both sides of the fence.

Go check out my posts at TCF. I was one of the first people to get the Series3 in mid-September. Ordered hour-1. Paid the full $799. Loved it. Posted that I loved it. Posted experiences at TCF so that others could enjoy TiVo. Loved it.

Well, times change. Other products get better. The HR20 has succeeded in my eyes. My family now also loves the HR20.

Without speaking for JayW, I'd assume that his original post was to let everyone know that he's also happy now. I agree with him. Yep, we both still want DLB but the HR20 is a pretty good box right now.

Telling us all that there are still skeptical folks out there isn't exactly new news. We know. That's why JayW made his post.

Suggesting that D* have a trial program to get new converts, good idea, may or may not ever happen. In the meantime, we'll continue to try and help others move to the HR20.

This "alienation" stuff also doesn't make much sense. The D*TiVo boxes never were on par with state-of-the-art DVRs. Whether it was D* fault or TiVo's fault, we may never know, but the D*TiVo box was a half-breed.

What we do know is that D* has total control of development right here in the U.S. and they're working very hard to make the HR20 the best box possible. They are frequently enhancing the box (not just bug fixes), and they listen. We post on the CE forum and sometimes shortly afterwards the change is made. The posts at TCF are not nearly as recognized by the parent company.

Ah well, enough debate ... you get the point.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> I am so amazed at how easily you give up and waste your money and your hardware.
> 
> Bring them out of storage and use them. The software has come a long way since the end of the year. I hardly use my Tivo anymore.


They are not in storage. One is connected to the TV in the Living room on HDMI1 and the Tivo is on HDMI2, the other is connected to the TV in the BR. I don't watch TV in the BR much and my wife hates the HR20 so it's only used to watch live TV.

Please don't take this the wrong way I know I'm in the HR20 thread but I prefer Tivo, and as long as there is nothing extra in it for me to use the HR20 I will use the Tivo. Also I should say that I do use the HR20 and it has gotten better however I still find myself having to press the red button and I only use it when 2 shows are recording on the Tivo and I want to record a third show.

That said I'm trying to point out to the HR20 fans here is I doubt that many of you would have stuck with the HR20 if you where not forced to. And when I say forced I mean that many of you like me would have returned the unit when you first got it. For me paying $300 to lease a product that does not work and not being able to return it is criminal.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

*"That said I'm trying to point out to the HR20 fans here is I doubt that many of you would have stuck with the HR20 if you where not forced to. And when I say forced I mean that many of you like me would have returned the unit when you first got it. For me paying $300 to lease a product that does not work and not being able to return it is criminal."*

And that is the arrogance of DirecTV that I'm speaking about!! While its nice that you all worked so hard to get a box to work, I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to have everyone send it back to D* and demanded a return? Maybe then we would have had more choice?


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

*"RS4, it's fairly obvious from your posts today that you're just trying to stir it up (which is fine on a forum)."*

Yeah, I understand. It's okay for an insider to say DirecTV sucks or this product is mediocre, it's different when an outsider to point these things out. No one likes that.

It's sorta the same feeling we get over on the other forum when bonscott87 likes to rub our nose into the pile telling us what a marvelous machine the HR20 is.  When in fact, if we pay attention to this forum, we know that not all others hold the same opinion.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

So let's see....commitments.

Pretty much any cell phone company....2 years

DirecTV for HD or DVRs....2 years
DirecTV for regular receivers....1 year (by the way, DirecTV commitments have been around a LOT longer then the HR20 or even the R15 for that matter

Dish Network - 18 months

Cable - 12 months, sometimes 18 months. 

Tivo - 1 year to 3 years

Seems to me everyone has a commitment. I guess they all have crappy equipment.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

RS4 said:


> It's sorta the same feeling we get over on the other forum when bonscott87 likes to rub our nose into the pile telling us what a marvelous machine the HR20 is.  When in fact, if we pay attention to this forum, we know that not all others hold the same opinion.


Hmmmmm....so how many times have I said that not everyone loves the HR20? How many times have I said people have problems? How many times have I said it's not perfect?

Methinks you need to learn to read my friend.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

My cable company certainly has no one year commitment if I want to try out some equipment. I can get it for a month and return it with no further commitment. 

The cell phone companies at least give you a 3-day out because you have to sign the contract. At least that's better then what Direct offers.

The problem is the company has become user ugly - they want to force you to sign up for two years come hell or high water. They don't give a rat's a.. about you or anyone else, but yet you folks seem marveled by the idea that they seem to be listening to you. I say great, it's about time they started doing something right for a change. But the truth is, you folks have saved their a..!! If it weren't for all of the effort you folks have put into the box and because you have the patience of Job to put up with inferior quality, you've made the box what it is today. And of course, we all benefit by that because maybe D* will think twice about releasing such an inferior product the next time.

Just think what would have happened if all of you had returned the boxes at the beginning and demanded D* return your money? There would have been a mutiny and some state attorney general would have come along and forced D* to come out with a product that at least did the basics as they advertised or return your money.

Just think what would have happened if you'd told D* you weren't signing up for a 2-year lease? Maybe they would have come to their senses and rethought their contracts.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> So let's see....commitments.
> 
> Pretty much any cell phone company....2 years
> 
> ...


FWIW....

Verizon gives you a 14 day trial period and the COX service here doesn't have any commitment they've mentioned to me when I've investigated a switch. Back in 2004 when I moved it took a month to get D* installed. I got COX service and canceled it after a month.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

Reading threads where someone says they used to not like the HR20 but after using it they now love it is kind of like being forced into an arranged marriage and the parents saying that you will learn to love them. If anyone is forced into using something long enough they are going to get used to it as I'm sure that I'm going to get used to the HR20 when the new HD channels are turned on.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

RS4 said:


> My cable company certainly has no one year commitment if I want to try out some equipment. I can get it for a month and return it with no further commitment.
> 
> The cell phone companies at least give you a 3-day out because you have to sign the contract. At least that's better then what Direct offers.


Your cable company has no or very little costs in hooking you up for a month. D*or E* for that matter has the ODUs & multiswitches that need to be installed.


RS4 said:


> The problem is the company has become user ugly - they want to force you to sign up for two years come hell or high water. They don't give a rat's a.. about you or anyone else, but yet you folks seem marveled by the idea that they seem to be listening to you. I say great, it's about time they started doing something right for a change. But the truth is, you folks have saved their a..!! If it weren't for all of the effort you folks have put into the box and because you have the patience of Job to put up with inferior quality, you've made the box what it is today. And of course, we all benefit by that because maybe D* will think twice about releasing such an inferior product the next time.
> 
> Just think what would have happened if all of you had returned the boxes at the beginning and demanded D* return your money? There would have been a mutiny and some state attorney general would have come along and forced D* to come out with a product that at least did the basics as they advertised or return your money.
> 
> Just think what would have happened if you'd told D* you weren't signing up for a 2-year lease? Maybe they would have come to their senses and rethought their contracts.


What company hasn't become user ugly. Companies today answer to Wall Street not Main Street. Thats an unfortunate fact of life today.

Inferior product? Not in my opinion. My first one, which I paid $299 to get from Best Buy has worked like a charm since day one.

I have no doubts that the engineers & programmers at D* didn't want the box to go out with the software issues that it had. But, the same people that have been screaming how big of a POS, POC, its not a Tivo would have been the exact same people screeming how there was no MP4 capable DVR available from D* to record the 2006/07 TV season. The same zealots would still be outside with their pitcforks and torches wanting to hang someone from a tree because they couldn't record in HD over the sats.

What would have happened if you refused to sign the 2-year lease. Simple, you don't get the box.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> Reading threads where someone says they used to not like the HR20 but after using it they now love it is kind of like being forced into an arranged marriage and the parents saying that you will learn to love them. If anyone is forced into using something long enough they are going to get used to it as I'm sure that I'm going to get used to the HR20 when the new HD channels are turned on.


Please do not imply that I have "forced" myself to like the HR20. I have used both machines up to this point on a pretty equal basis. The HR20 earned my kudos. Its a good product now, and I would (now) recommend it over an SD TIVO to any of my friends. And believe me, my friends all know how much of a tivo guy i am. In fact - they wish they didn't know.

Okay - so that is not to say I don't miss DLB, and suggestions. Its just saying - I'm to a point now, where the HR20 does most everything else as well or better than the SD Tivo.

One more point - I still think TIVO is more intuitive. But now that I know where everything is on the HR20, that is completely non-issue for me.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Never had a tivo.. I feel so left out in this arguement :lol:


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

bafuerst said:


> Reading threads where someone says they used to not like the HR20 but after using it they now love it is kind of like being forced into an arranged marriage and the parents saying that you will learn to love them.


Not the case here. Actually, quite the opposite.

Had first marriage (TiVo).

Was in love.

Spouse left (TiVo relationship ended).

Married 2nd time (HR20).

Never thought 2nd marriage (HR20) could ever be the same.

It isn't the same, it's different, and in many ways it's better.

And now the relationship is closer (Development is in house) and she cares more and listens (CE program).

Overall a better relationship.

Others sometimes never get over the first marriage and spend the rest of their life hoping for the way it was.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Sixto said:


> Not the case here. Actually, quite the opposite.
> 
> Had first marriage (TiVo).
> 
> ...


Just curious - did you do a prenup with the HR20? :contract:

That story is... Well...

Let's just say I'm trying to figure out right now if my wife is a Tivo or not. Hmmm - 30 second skip anyone?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

First person to mention Dual Live anything gets a two week (or longer) "vacation". And likely miss the VOD release... 

Cheers,
Tom


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## D1DAVE (Feb 24, 2006)

Wow Jaywdetroit This is a rough crowd. I had a HR10-250( loved it!) but saw the writing on the wall. Sold it about April and upgraded to avoid any rush in getting a recorder before mpeg4, extra hd channels coming and local Rsn broadcasts of the Astros etc. Been involved in 3 CE'S with my 2 H20 units, and one with my HR20-100. HR20-100 is a very good unit and does exactly what it is supposed to do. Play back pristine HD content and record my favorite programs.
I am with you, don't look back people, Tivo ain't THAT great, and you will enjoy the added features!
I do wish I had a black HR20-100 though, my only real complaint.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> And likely miss the VOD release...


You sneaky devil you. :hurah: Your gonna make me run some Ethernet cable aren't you.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Like I care about a 2 year commitment. How far out does Sunday Ticket run with DirecTV? Ahhhh, sign me up for a 3 year commitment then. 

When it comes to the commitment to "try" the HR20 you're really coming at it the wrong way.

You either want to stick with DirecTV and get their new HD channels or you don't. That simple. If you plan to stick with DirecTV and you want the new HD channels then the HR20 is your only choice. There is no "try", there is only "do".

If you don't plan to stay with DirecTV then you should have already left or should have plans to do so. 

I guess the 3rd option is that you'll stick with DirecTV only if the HR20 doesn't suck. But since you've already resigned yourself to the fact it does suck then why bother at this point, look elsewhere.

Again, it's that simple really. Just don't understand all the anger over something one has never even seen before let alone used. But to each his own....cable awaits with open arms I'm sure.

As for cable "commitment". Try to drop one of the "triple play" parts before your first year special rate is up. Yikes $$$$$ ! Might as well be a commitment.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> As for cable "commitment". Try to drop one of the "triple play" parts before your first year special rate is up. Yikes $$$$$ ! Might as well be a commitment.


When TWC paid a visit about having me switch from DIRECTV and Verizon DSL, they offered a "buy out" for equipment and commitment, but in return I'd have to commit to their triple play for three years.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> First person to mention Dual Live anything gets a two week (or longer) "vacation". And likely miss the VOD release...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I'm starting my 2 week Vacation in about 9 hours from now  ...


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> There are still lots and lots of Tivo people who don't like the HR20, but you don't want to hear that here.


I think you're wrong there RS4, but let me tell you my story first:

As with many here, I was an early D*tivo adopter. Got my first unit in early 2001. I've been a huge tivo fan for over 6 years now. I have tivo dolls flanking my entertainment center, a tivo guy on my car antenna, and there's a large tivo doll in permanent residence in my 2 year olds crib. 
I've been happy with my setup (2 SD D*tivos distributed to the rest of the house - 7 TV's in all), but knew I'd need to do something when I finally switched to HD (bought a new TV 6 years ago that's not HD and have been trying to get the most use out of it, before buying a new main TV). When D* and tivo ended their relationship, I heard a lot of bad things about the machines that D* was putting out (SD and HD). For that reason, I pretty much stopped reading all the D* forums and instead have spent the last 10 months researching FIOS as my next move for when I get my new HD TV this fall/winter. 
I started talking to my wife about some of the issues involved with switching providers (she's a bigger tivo fan than I) and she suggested a do some more research into what D* is doing, so I started reading TCF and this forum (and others) again several weeks ago.
What did I discover? Many of the individuals that I knew from years ago as being the biggest tivofanatics ever, were now praising D* and their current products (and future products). These are people that I've respected for years. This is a forum full of people that use these products and know how they perform. I still see a lot of *****ing over at TCF, but it's usually from people like yourself that haven't even tried the product.

So, you say there's still lots and lots of tivo people that don't like the HR20. I would bet that if every tivo lover tried the HR20, the majority would like it.

And this is coming from another huge tivo fan that DOESN'T EVEN HAVE AN HR20 YET.

Perhaps you should do as I did and spend the first several weeks here (or back here, in my case) READING and LEARNING what the users have to say, instead of just POSTING what you're heard.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Oh, and to be on topic for the thread .. I still have two TiVos. My family loves them and can't stand the HR20 - although it's really growing on them now that it works very well. They are even noticing some of the nice differences.

I used to love TiVo as well, but they held out on me .. I used to think it was DIRECTV holding back, but watching the slow pace of TiVo and their holier-than-thou attitude, I'm becoming more and more convinced that it was as much TiVo's fault as DIRECTV's on any relationship issues that they had.

TiVo was (and still is WRT DIRECTV) stuck in a time warp. I much prefer then HR20 now and absolutely do NOT want to go back. The relationship that has been cultivated here between DBSTalk.com and DIRECTV is nothing short of astounding.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Maybe some would have, maybe not, I got my 1st HR20 in early October, and I never looked back....


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

Many of you still don't get it and I doubt you ever will. You can't see the forest for the trees. You've put up with crappy stuff for so many months, you're now amazed that it stays up and keeps working - i.e. you've settled for mediocrity. Oh yeah, D* seems to be improving the product, but it still doesn't have any super wow feature other than mpeg4.

You guys are so close to the box that Direct owns you. You're proud that you've come this far. I'm happy for ya. The outside world would probably say D* bent you over and took advantage. You guys put up with stuff that most people wouldn't.

I have spent hours here reading all kinds of issues and that is precisely why I don't want to commit to another 2 years until I'm forced to. I still see the kind of thing we've seen on this thread - yeah it's an okay box, but...

You can say all you want about Tivo - who knows how much is Tivo and how much is D*. I doubt if we will ever know. But there are lots of us hoping that if we hold out, D* and Tivo will recognize an opportunity, especially with new ownership. So, we'll sit on the sidelines to see what the next few months bring. 

I do see Tivo being able to download videos from Amazon and that's the kind of thing that gets me excited, because I believe in the next few years, the internet will become the video delivery service bypassing satellite and cable.

In the meantime, keep up the work with D*. Make the best use of the marriage. But have the sense to know that your own forum is not busting with endorsements. Instead, you present the attitude of survivalists - you've made it through the big event and now you want to tell other people about it. You're just kinda pissed that the outside world says "that's nice, so what?".


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

blah, blah, blah....

If you arent interested in contributing something positive, or arent interested in getting an HR20, why stay?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Ironic how these forums work.. I held off buying a DVR because I read that the TIVO's were slow and you couldn't do a lot of things without leaving live tv.. 
P.S. I love my 2 HR20's and they both work fine for my wife and me, And looking forward to what else they are planning for it. As well as all the new channels.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Many of you still don't get it ...


We "get it" just fine.

We have no need to develop any forestry skills, we see the trees very well.

Today, July 2007, there are two types of trees in our D* forest of HD DVR receivers.

You can choose the HR20 or stick with the old HR10.

No comparison (advantages previously posted).

Now, if you want to dream for a Series3 on D*, that's always your prerogative.

Instead, the rest of us move on, move forward in 2007, enjoy eSATA expanded storage, ~100 HD channels by year-end, VOD within weeks, picture-in-guide, instantaneous single click recording and series links ... the list goes on-and-on ...

Must applaud your futile tenacity ... enjoy your HR10 ... while we enjoy our much more functional HR20's.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

RS4 said:


> You can say all you want about Tivo - who knows how much is Tivo and how much is D*. I doubt if we will ever know. But there are lots of us hoping that if we hold out, D* and Tivo will recognize an opportunity, especially with new ownership. So, we'll sit on the sidelines to see what the next few months bring.


People in hell want ice water. Red shirted crewman would like to make it back safely to the Enterprise. Tivo huggers want D* to bring Tivo back.

Sorry, none of three are going to happen.


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## spoonman (Feb 21, 2007)

lflorack said:


> That's interesting, my HR20-700 is pretty queit. Maybe it's because I can't hear......:grin:


My first one was very loud...my replacement one isn't as bad...maybe they are putting better drives in them?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Oh yeah, D* seems to be improving the product, but it still doesn't have any super wow feature other than mpeg4.


There are a bunch of "super wow" features that the HR20 has that the HR10 doesn't. They've already been listed in this thread, but you've obviously chosen to ignore them so I'm not going to bother repeating them.


RS4 said:


> You guys put up with stuff that most people wouldn't.


For once I actually agree with you. But I fail to see how this is a bad thing.


RS4 said:


> I still see the kind of thing we've seen on this thread - yeah it's an okay box, but...


*Most of the posts in this thread are saying that the HR20 is BETTER than the HR10. BETTER. You are simply ignoring them.*


RS4 said:


> I do see Tivo being able to download videos from Amazon and that's the kind of thing that gets me excited


Oh, you mean like the VOD feature that the HR20 is getting in a few weeks?


RS4 said:


> You're just kinda pissed that the outside world says "that's nice, so what?".


Actually, the outside world isn't saying that at all, unless of course you consider TCF to be the outside world. Most people have no problem with the HR20, and actually like it. For me, if DirecTV decided to go back to Tivo exclusively, I would leave. I don't want to be stuck with the crap that arrogant company decides I need. I've seen the light.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Oh, you mean like the VOD feature that the HR20 is getting in a few weeks?


I wouldn't be praising a feature like VOD until it's up and running.

Few weeks? So it we'll get this by the end of July? Oh, no I won't cause I've got a -100.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

IMO the HR20 _is_ an inferior DVR in comparison to the HR10. The UI, trickplay, remote, slow channel changing nuances aside, it still misses recordings every now and then and, to me.....that's unforgiveable.

Our HR10's have collectively missed 1 recording in the years we've owned them.

I hated the HR20 when we first got it, and now.....not so much. The fact that it's gotten better is a definite bonus, but it's still below what I would deem as being 'acceptable' considering this thing is supossed to be an UPgrade from the HR10.

And the fact that we've been used as 'test subjects' by Direc (for you Jeremy, LOL) while being locked into a 2 year comittment truly rubs me the wrong way. Granted, I'm not going anywhere, but it's just not right to do that to your customers.

I look forward to this thing becoming more reliable as the new HD programming arrives with fingers crossed, and I'm happy we're fortunate enough to be able to afford having other DVR's as backups......or this thing would've been sitting in a closet.

My opinion.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Marcia_Brady said:


> IMO the HR20 _is_ an inferior DVR in comparison to the HR10. The UI, trickplay, remote, slow channel changing nuances aside, it still misses recordings every now and then and, to me.....that's unforgiveable.
> 
> ......
> 
> *My opinion.*


Key words highlighted....
And is the basis of most of these arguments, we get into here.

What is better, which is worse...
Is completely of the opinion the people making the statements.

There is no definitive.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Hey Earl, thanks again for being the voice of reason.

BTW -- how long have you worked for D*?


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Key words highlighted....
> And is the basis of most of these arguments, we get into here.
> 
> What is better, which is worse...
> ...


Well, thanks for clearing that up, LOL. But that's what we're here for, isn't it? To exchange information and experiences, and form an *opinion* _based on _these experiences.

Otherwise this wouldn't be a forum, it would be a manual.
:lol:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Marcia_Brady said:


> Well, thanks for clearing that up, LOL. But that's what we're here for, isn't it? To exchange information and experiences, and form an *opinion* _based on _these experiences.
> 
> Otherwise this wouldn't be a forum, it would be a manual.
> :lol:


Very much correct...

However, unless you put those words.: IMHO, or My Opinion...
Statements often get taken as absolutes... and then we get into "Who can be the loudest" arguments instead of discussions.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Very much correct...
> 
> However, unless you put those words.: IMHO, or My Opinion...
> Statements often get taken as absolutes... and then we get into "Who can be the loudest" arguments instead of discussions.


How's this. In my option it is irrelevant what features the HR20 has that makes anyone here think that it's better than the HD10-250. The fact is, for me, when I go to use it which is less than 10% of the time I watch TV. I most likely have to restart it to get it to work, then after it's restarted I might watch TV on it, however I most likely give up because it is not worth getting my blood pressure up just to watch TV. So for now I stick with Tivo and hopefully when DirecTV gets around to turning on the new HD channels it will work properly.

Also I find it funny that no one has answered my question from my previous post so I will ask again.

How many of you that now think the HR20 is better than the HD10-250 would have returned it if DirecTV allowed returns?


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> How's this. In my option it is irrelevant what features the HR20 has that makes anyone here think that it's better than the HD10-250. The fact is, for me, when I go to use it which is less than 10% of the time I watch TV. I most likely have to restart it to get it to work, then after it's restarted I might watch TV on it, however I most likely give up because it is not worth getting my blood pressure up just to watch TV. So for now I stick with Tivo and hopefully when DirecTV gets around to turning on the new HD channels it will work properly.
> 
> Also I find it funny that no one has answered my question from my previous post so I will ask again.
> 
> How many of you that now think the HR20 is better than the HD10-250 would have returned it if DirecTV allowed returns?


Why do you have to restart the HR20 every time you use? What problems are you having?

As for your question I had the HR10-250. I had 5 Directv SD TiVo's and I have a stand alone TiVo. I loved TiVo and was so mad when Directv decided to start going a way from it and have their own DVR's. So I bought 2 R15's had some problems at first but nothing major. I then got 2 HR20's in September and had all the major problems until about January/February. Since then I have not had any major problems only a few minor. So I got another HR20 in May. I will be adding 1 or 2 more of them soon. So to answer your question I would not return them if Directv let me. I actually think the HR20 is the best DVR I have ever used.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bafuerst said:


> How's this. In my option it is irrelevant what features the HR20 has that makes anyone here think that it's better than the HD10-250. The fact is, for me, when I go to use it which is less than 10% of the time I watch TV. I most likely have to restart it to get it to work, then after it's restarted I might watch TV on it, however I most likely give up because it is not worth getting my blood pressure up just to watch TV. So for now I stick with Tivo and hopefully when DirecTV gets around to turning on the new HD channels it will work properly.


If you are truely having that many problems with your HR20 then I'd get it replaced, sounds like a hardware problem. Might want to open up a thread on your problems and ask for help. Many people here will try to help.



> Also I find it funny that no one has answered my question from my previous post so I will ask again.
> 
> How many of you that now think the HR20 is better than the HD10-250 would have returned it if DirecTV allowed returns?


Not sure I understand the question.

If the HR20 was a pile I would have returned it no matter what and keep using my older receivers. No skin off my back. Yea, 2 year commitment and all that. I'm not going anywhere. At such time it was required then I'd get one again. Or I'd have my cable company buy out my contract (almost all of them will buy our your commitment to cancel early, thus why I laugh at people getting outraged by a commitment). But hey, that's just me.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

bafuerst said:


> How many of you that now think the HR20 is better than the HD10-250 would have returned it if DirecTV allowed returns?


Splitting hairs here: It's not the HD10-250 it's the HR10-250

Since i have had two HR's since Sept. and have had very few problems, I would have to answer your question w/ a No.

Now who knows if that would be different it I had major problems. 
Part of of this is relative as well. Who's definition do you use for "minor" and/or "major" problems.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Everyone has their own opinions. But the fact is there are problems. I haven't had my HR20 for a week yet. I have run into audio dropouts, blank beginning of recordings and very "un-snappy" trick play response. Items I never saw on my HR10. Now, if all of you that have accepted the HR20 are also experiencing these problems then I would say you've lowered your expectations of what a DVR can do. I'm not talking about the new stuff, I'm talking about basic DVR functions.

I can say my current HR20-100 running 168 ain't half bad. But it's not close to what I had with my HR10. And, once again, I fail to see the speed increase which every D*Fender mentions. The guide is the same at best, and sometimes slower than my HR10 running 6.3. Channel switching is much slower on the HR20 than my HR10 (native mode off).

I guess if you all keep talking about how much better the HR20 is, you start believing it over time.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bto4wd said:


> Everyone has their own opinions. But the fact is there are problems. I haven't had my HR20 for a week yet. I have run into audio dropouts, blank beginning of recordings and very "un-snappy" trick play response. Items I never saw on my HR10. Now, if all of you that have accepted the HR20 are also experiencing these problems then I would say you've lowered your expectations of what a DVR can do. I'm not talking about the new stuff, I'm talking about basic DVR functions.
> 
> I can say my current HR20-100 running 168 ain't half bad. But it's not close to what I had with my HR10. And, once again, I fail to see the speed increase which every D*Fender mentions. The guide is the same at best, and sometimes slower than my HR10 running 6.3. Channel switching is much slower on the HR20 than my HR10 (native mode off).
> 
> I guess if you all keep talking about how much better the HR20 is, you start believing it over time.


Sorry to say for you but I've had my HR20 since September and have never had those problems and still don't. So when you say I have "accepted" the HR20, I have because it plain works....for me. And that's the only opinion I can have, does it work in my house. Sure does.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bto4wd said:


> And, once again, I fail to see the speed increase which every D*Fender mentions.


Holy cow it's night and day. How many hours of my life have been spent staring at the Tivo "this may take a few minutes" when reordering season passes?  On the HR20 it's instant.

One touch recording is about as fast as one can get. Pull up guide, press record twice and your season pass is setup. On a Tivo you'd still be setting up your first season pass in the time I've setup 5-10 of them on the HR20.

I could go on, but I guess speed again is in the eye of the beholder and what it is you are looking for to be faster I guess.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> Holy cow it's night and day. How many hours of my life have been spent staring at the Tivo "this may take a few minutes" when reordering season passes?  On the HR20 it's instant.
> 
> One touch recording is about as fast as one can get. Pull up guide, press record twice and your season pass is setup. On a Tivo you'd still be setting up your first season pass in the time I've setup 5-10 of them on the HR20.
> 
> I could go on, but I guess speed again is in the eye of the beholder and what it is you are looking for to be faster I guess.


Darn right! The other day I went to the other room to record something on the TiVo because we had two tuners already in use on the HR20. After a while my wife is yelling for me wondering what the heck I'm doing in there. Had to tell her I'm waiting on this stupid Tivo to finally say "Yes, I will record this". I had forgotten how frustrating it can be.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Is the HR20 better than the HR10? What an incredibly complex question and so very subjective based on YOUR situation, family, likes/dislikes, and weightings.

Today, IMHO, they are about equal overall. I still want DLB. Every football season, I'll want DLB.

But builtin today, without hacks or mods, the HR20 has 30 sec. slip, autocorrection, single tuner overlapped recording, single button recording and double press series links, recording defaults!, group play, mark and delete, and Music and Photos.

The HR10 has many of these and more via hacks and mods. I can do them, have done them to one of my many receivers, and the upkeep to the hacks on 5 DVRs is more than I'd like to consider. That said, builtin the HR10 still has much better advanced trickplay (skip to tick, pause, slomo), better manual recurring recordings handling/labeling, more flexible group retention (up to 10), autorecords and filters, and did I mention DLB? 

Looking backward, just briefly, yes the HR20 had some HORRIBLE releases. Some in November just torqued me off as clearly some things were not unit tested at all. But since December, even before the CE program started, very few releases had instantly noticable huge failures.

Still looking backward, Tivo hasn't changed much. Even in the S3 series. I haven't heard of any new features; just repackaging for cable.

Now looking forward the HR20 series is dynamic; is moving forward; and already supports the advanced DIRECTV features like ACTIVE, mix channels, and interactive channels. And will support VOD and other features whispered but not talked about--yet. The Tivos don't even seem to have whispered features. Talk about missing the boat, Tivo should have taken every single major hack and put them into their product.

Again today, to me, they are about equal. The HR20 has come a long way. The HR10 hasn't moved a bit. The HR20 is moving forward a long way. The S3 is not and likely won't work on cable card 2.0 nor on switched video networks.

The S3 costs $13/month each just for DVR service. (give or take based only payment plan). The HR20s cost me nothing. (Guess which level of programming I have. And it is not a name for a metal.)

*Everyone is warmly welcomed to their opinion and to politely sharing that opinion here.* That is how the hacks for the Tivo came into being and came into being so very good, to bad they are still hacks. That is also how DIRECTV listens to us to make the HR20 better.

Cheers,
Tom


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Holy cow it's night and day. How many hours of my life have been spent staring at the Tivo "this may take a few minutes" when reordering season passes?  On the HR20 it's instant.
> 
> One touch recording is about as fast as one can get. Pull up guide, press record twice and your season pass is setup. On a Tivo you'd still be setting up your first season pass in the time I've setup 5-10 of them on the HR20.
> 
> I could go on, but I guess speed again is in the eye of the beholder and what it is you are looking for to be faster I guess.


DUH. You know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the activity every customer uses every day. Changing channels and paging up and down in the guide. I make SL/SP changes maybe once a month, and yes, the HR20 is faster on that front. But in regards to the stuff I do every day, all day, there's no difference IMO.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> DUH. You know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the activity every customer uses every day. Changing channels and paging up and down in the guide. I make SL/SP changes maybe once a month, and yes, the HR20 is faster on that front. But in regards to the stuff I do every day, all day, there's no difference IMO.


Well if all I want is to change channels (which is VERY dependent on your tv) or look thru the guide, I would have stayed with my old sir360 non dvr, It was faster than and DVR ever built 
just had to add fuel to the fire.. sorry mods..


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> *Everyone is warmly welcomed to their opinion and to politely sharing that opinion here.* That is how the hacks for the Tivo came into being and came into being so very good, to bad they are still hacks. That is also how DIRECTV listens to us to make the HR20 better.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


At least in my comments I'm not referring to any additional stuff. I'm talking about basics. The problems I've had with my HR20 (a week old tomorrow). Live buffer freezing after I placed it in pause to make lunch and returned. Blank beginning of recorded programs. Trick play sometimes working great and other times working like some "spaz"....(freezing for a second or two and then continuing).

Myself I'[m not trying to say there's a better unit or a worse. And I'm not comparing the HR20's ability to have PIG and one button recording versus the Tivos ability to do Wishlists and suggestions.

I believe if there was an honest discussion of basic DVR functions and how these units performed we might just be making a logical comparison.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

houskamp said:


> Well if all I want is to change channels (which is VERY dependent on your tv) or look thru the guide, I would have stayed with my old sir360 non dvr


The point is, you're supposed to ignore all of the stuff the HR20 does better, and just focus on the things it does worse. Otherwise, you're a biased DirecTV employee.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> The point is, you're supposed to ignore all of the stuff the HR20 does better, and just focus on the things it does worse. Otherwise, you're a biased DirecTV employee.




Ya know, the discussion was going along pretty reasonably until you felt it required sarcasm.

What's the point?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> The point is, you're supposed to ignore all of the stuff the HR20 does better, and just focus on the things it does worse. Otherwise, you're a biased DirecTV employee.


Yep I guess so.. and my corvette rides ruff and my caddy corners like crap..


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Yep I guess so.. and my corvette rides ruff and my caddy corners like crap..


Your Corvette is suppose to ride stiff because you want it to corner at high speeds, your Caddy is suppose to corner like crap because you expect a good ride, a DVR is suppose to record and playback what the user tells it to record and playback without a 15 page FAQ that lists workarounds for all of the known problems.

So, your point? :grin:


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Yeah, everything is dreamy in HR10 land.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Marcia_Brady said:


> Ya know, the discussion was going along pretty reasonably until you felt it required sarcasm.


There hasn't been any reason in this discussion since the Tivo Defense Squad came by.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Well if all I want is to change channels (which is VERY dependent on your tv) or look thru the guide, I would have stayed with my old sir360 non dvr, It was faster than and DVR ever built
> just had to add fuel to the fire.. sorry mods..


Isn't it a bit hard to use your touted "one button record" if you don't use the guide? Tell me, how do you select your programs to be recorded if you don't use the guide? Or do you use the much flawed HR20 search engine. The search engine that after you select a show along with the particular channel you are interested in, it once again shows you all channels that show appears on. There's a giant step forward, a great advancement in search engine technology.

I'm searching for Seinfeld and get to choose between 2 local and 2 national channels. I choose one local channels and the next screen I see episode details which happends to include all 4 channels again.

I've resisted getting into a "what I don't like about the HR20" rant because I've not even had it a week. But give me a break. It's got plenty of it's own problems.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> There hasn't been any reason in this discussion since the Tivo Defense Squad came by.


What ta heck are you talking about? The OP stated he made the decision to drop his Tivo. That's fine. But stop this attitude that the HR20 is all fine and fixed. It's not. I've run into more problems in 6 days with my HR20 than I have in a year with my HR10. And I know enough not to try Autorecord.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> At least in my comments I'm not referring to any additional stuff. I'm talking about basics. The problems I've had with my HR20 (a week old tomorrow). Live buffer freezing after I placed it in pause to make lunch and returned. Blank beginning of recorded programs. Trick play sometimes working great and other times working like some "spaz"....(freezing for a second or two and then continuing).
> 
> Myself I'[m not trying to say there's a better unit or a worse. And I'm not comparing the HR20's ability to have PIG and one button recording versus the Tivos ability to do Wishlists and suggestions.
> 
> I believe if there was an honest discussion of basic DVR functions and how these units performed we might just be making a logical comparison.


There are many levels of discussion in this thread. So in my previous commentary, I discussed what was to me the proper level. I have not had the level of problems you are for many, many months now. You have not seemed interested in the notion that you may have a bad piece of hardware, even tho several people have suggested. It happens to all vendors. I'm not sure why you are resisting that notion, but you appear to be. Since my HR20s are not having those problems anymore, I can recall times when the level of commentary you desire was appropriate, but I can't call an appropriate level of discussion now.

The issues lists are no longer filled (and they had been!) with the issues you are having. And yet the people who once filled those lists are still posting. I believe they are not having those problems anymore. They are not a shy lot, as you've noticed.

So consider replacing your unit so we can compare the real Tivo with the real HR20.

Cheers,
Tom


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> There are many levels of discussion in this thread. So in my previous commentary, I discussed what was to me the proper level. I have not had the level of problems you are for many, many months now. You have not seemed interested in the notion that you may have a bad piece of hardware, even tho several people have suggested. It happens to all vendors. I'm not sure why you are resisting that notion, but you appear to be. Since my HR20s are not having those problems anymore, I can recall times when the level of commentary you desire was appropriate, but I can't call an appropriate level of discussion now.
> 
> The issues lists are no longer filled (and they had been!) with the issues you are having. And yet the people who once filled those lists are still posting. I believe they are not having those problems anymore. They are not a shy lot, as you've noticed.
> 
> ...


Tom,
Are you confusing me with someone that's really been complaining? I have listed problems but from what I've been reading they are problems many experience.

Are you saying that having your live buffer freeze after being paused for 20 minutes (note, freezing at about the point of the live broadcast when I resumed play) indicates I have bad hardware?

Are you saying that when playing a recorded show and one experiences a 20-30 blank screen at the beginning indicates I have bad hardware? I can RR and see the entire show.

Are you saying that trick play "stutters" indicate I have a bad unit? I've seen that reported as a known bug.

Remember I have a HR20-100 running 168. I'm not a CEer (but I guess none of the HundredNation are). Heck, I didn't even realize that I can't try out the Game Lounge until I tried it last night and was informed my receiver doesn't support it.

For the record, no one has told me to have my unit replaced. I'm giving it time but I'm being honest in what I've run into. I realize many of you don't like that but all I can say is too bad. Also, I'm not complaining, only documenting.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> Tom,
> Are you confusing me with someone that's really been complaining? I have listed problems but from what I've been reading they are problems many experience.
> 
> Are you saying that having your live buffer freeze after being paused for 20 minutes (note, freezing at about the point of the live broadcast when I resumed play) indicates I have bad hardware?
> ...


My bad--to some extent. I thought I had seen a post suggesting you have your unit replaced. I likely confiused Bonscott87's suggestion to bafuerst. My apologies.

But, I might still contend that if you are seeing freezes and blank screens you might have a hardware problem. I had those problems--but back in December when many people reported them. But I don't see those very often anymore.

Trickplay from live buffer is still an issue of the HR20. The transition from live to live buffer still haunts the HR20. Some rethinking of that is necessary, IMHO. Basic trickplay from recording seems to be working fairly well for me. Mrs. Tibber is very happy now that autocorrection is in place. You will get that soon on the -100. (In the form of a CE, then NR I bet.)

Lastly, documenting the problems is good. I appreciate that you take the time, as it will make the HR20-100 better for all. And likely the HR20-x00 better too.

Cheers,
Tom


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## rigelian (Jun 21, 2007)

I think this is my very first post to this board. I've only posted a few times to the TCF. We just recently, (just over a week ago) got a HR20-100 to replace a DirecTivo SD box. We also have a 10-250 Directv. So right now, we have a 10-250 and HR-100 as our two operating satellite boxes. Not taking into account expanded programming in the future, not taking into account the promised features looking ahead (VOD, game lounge, etc.), I'll take the HR20 as it runs today.

Why? It's faster. The guide is faster, recording programs faster, and the season past form is far faster. Surprisingly the interface makes a lot of sense to me. I like the fact that I can bring up the one line guide and program a show on the fly sort of speak. So given a choice between using the Tivo or the HR20, I opt for the HR20 every time. 

If I were to evaluate the potential of the two devices, then it wouldn't even be close. 

This is not to say I don't like the Tivo. I loved the Tivo and still love it. It's a great box. But for me, it isn't as good as the HR20. 

Rigelian
DirecTv 10-250
HR20-100S
Philips 42PFL7432D/37


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Welcome Rigelian! :welcome_s

Cheers,
Tom


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bto4wd said:


> Isn't it a bit hard to use your touted "one button record" if you don't use the guide? Tell me, how do you select your programs to be recorded if you don't use the guide?


The guide for me is lightning fast. No delays at all. So not sure what you're talking about there. Now my DirecTivo's also have a fast guide but I'm not quite sure how much faster you can make the guide when it's there in an instant and scrolling thru is immediate with no delay. 

I wish you luck. I'd suggest you open a new thread and post your problems there so people like VOS can start to troubleshoot with you. Honestly I think you might have bad hardware or something corrupt in the software. VOS has perfected the "reset and format" procedure and can post what you can do. It really does help. And if doing that doesn't fix your problems then it's pretty much 99% you have some sort of hardware issue.


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

rigelian said:


> I think this is my very first post to this board. I've only posted a few times to the TCF. We just recently, (just over a week ago) got a HR20-100 to replace a DirecTivo SD box. We also have a 10-250 Directv. So right now, we have a 10-250 and HR-100 as our two operating satellite boxes. Not taking into account expanded programming in the future, not taking into account the promised features looking ahead (VOD, game lounge, etc.), I'll take the HR20 as it runs today.
> 
> Why? It's faster. The guide is faster, recording programs faster, and the season past form is far faster. Surprisingly the interface makes a lot of sense to me. I like the fact that I can bring up the one line guide and program a show on the fly sort of speak. So given a choice between using the Tivo or the HR20, I opt for the HR20 every time.
> 
> ...


Welcome aboard.

I'm exactly 1 month out of 2 HR10's and into 2 HR20's and I don't miss the HR10's at all. Everything the Tivo can do the D* can do better, and the supposed downsides like dual tuners and wish lists weren't anything I really cared about in retrospect.

I haven't had so much as a dropout or a single missed recording; a far cry from my HR10 with the missing audio and black screens.

If it weren't for the horror stories portrayed on the TCF, I'd have done this months ago. Oh well, makes for a great summer.

BJ


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## rigelian (Jun 21, 2007)

Thanks for the welcome. Looking through a lot of threads, my take is that a lot of the concern had to do with the HR20s upon rollout. There are a couple of things I would want to see improved (the rewind is occassionally annoying). Put all in all, I'm happy and I'm already thinking about replacing the old tivo.

Rigelian


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

BMoreRavens said:


> Why do you have to restart the HR20 every time you use? What problems are you having?
> 
> As for your question I had the HR10-250. I had 5 Directv SD TiVo's and I have a stand alone TiVo. I loved TiVo and was so mad when Directv decided to start going a way from it and have their own DVR's. So I bought 2 R15's had some problems at first but nothing major. I then got 2 HR20's in September and had all the major problems until about January/February. Since then I have not had any major problems only a few minor. So I got another HR20 in May. I will be adding 1 or 2 more of them soon. So to answer your question I would not return them if Directv let me. I actually think the HR20 is the best DVR I have ever used.


Well, since you asked.

The biggest problem I have with my HR20's happens often (when I use it that is). When I go to change the channel it will not change. I get no errors at all it just stays on the current channel. I then have to then restart it, and usually by the time it's rebooted I'm watching something else on the HR10-250.

The second problem I have is when I start to watch a recorded program. When I hit play I get black screen. If the show is 30 minutes long I get 30 minutes of black screen. I will say that this seems to only happen when watching HD local channels from the sat. And yes those channels come in OK when watching live TV, but those are also most of the channels I record on the HR20.

Third, when I tell it to record a show on a HD local channel it sometimes decides that recording the show from the SD local channel is OK. One good thing about this problem is that at least the show is viewable.

Those are the 3 biggest problems I have. I have more but I really don't feel like writing a book tonight.

Now on to things that drive me nuts.

First after I have finished watching a recorded show the HR20 it goes back to the beginning of the list. I then have to page down until I get to the next show I want to watch. On the Tivo it goes back to the last place I was at on the List.

Second when I'm watching a recorded show that I have already watched part of, I have to fast forward all the way to the part I have not watched. I don't seem to have much luck using the 4 option in fast forward because it just seems to skip to random parts of the show, and the 3 option is not very fast so it takes a long time to get to the part I have not watched yet. On the Tivo I can start to fast forward and then press the 30 second skip button to skip in 15 min. increments. So far I have not found a way to do that on the HR20.

Third when I watch a recorded show and use any of the trick play options the voice gets out of sync with the audio. This happens almost all of the time but it is not always as noticeable and the show can be watched, however I would say about 30% of the time it makes the show unwatchable.

Last I hate the remote.

Six of the above problems happen on both of my HR20's, the audio sync problem only happens on one of them.

The only thing that I've noticed on the HR20 that is noticeably faster is the press once to record button. This is the feature that most HR20 fans seem to rave about and yes it is faster but maybe by only 10 seconds though I have not timed it. Now I'm not a math wiz but if I was I would like to figure out how much time I've wasted in the past 8 months waiting for the HR20 to reboot, compared to waiting for the Tivo to let me know its recording a show. If I had to guess I would say the HR10-250 is far ahead.

Now as many of you have guessed I am a Tivo fan, but I'm Man enough to say that if the HR20 worked as well at recording shows as the HR10-250 did I would use it allot more, and I would get used to it, and I may even like it, but for now Tivo is where it's at for me because it's 100% reliable.

Also if DirecTV is reading this you had better believe that when the new promised HD channels start up if my HR20's are not 100% by then the phone lines to DirecTV will be steaming hot, and I'm not going to take any more refunds, or free programming. The only reason I'm sticking it out with DirecTV is for the promised HD and without that DirecTV can take my [email protected]# to court if they think they will get any more of my money!


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> when I tell it to record a show on a HD local channel it sometimes decides that recording the show from the SD local channel is OK.


It won't just decide to record from the SD channel. You made a mistake while setting up the recording, and chose to record the wrong channel.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> It won't just decide to record from the SD channel. You made a mistake while setting up the recording, and chose to record the wrong channel.


Or is using a search/autorecord.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or is using a search/autorecord.


He said that he specifically told it to record on the HD channel. I figured that meant he had setup a recording on the channel.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bafuerst said:


> Well, since you asked.
> 
> The biggest problem I have with my HR20's happens often (when I use it that is). When I go to change the channel it will not change. I get no errors at all it just stays on the current channel. I then have to then restart it, and usually by the time it's rebooted I'm watching something else on the HR10-250.


This might be fixed in a release about to go national.


bafuerst said:


> The second problem I have is when I start to watch a recorded program. When I hit play I get black screen. If the show is 30 minutes long I get 30 minutes of black screen. I will say that this seems to only happen when watching HD local channels from the sat. And yes those channels come in OK when watching live TV, but those are also most of the channels I record on the HR20.


This sounds like a hardware problem, but since it is affecting both HR20s, I'm guessing the hardware in question is the cables, switch, or dish. But is a guess.


bafuerst said:


> Third, when I tell it to record a show on a HD local channel it sometimes decides that recording the show from the SD local channel is OK. One good thing about this problem is that at least the show is viewable.


Are you using autorecords? Otherwise I'm suspicious you are either watching an SD show your station has tried to upconvert or you've picked the SD channel when you setup the recording.


bafuerst said:


> Those are the 3 biggest problems I have. I have more but I really don't feel like writing a book tonight.
> 
> Now on to things that drive me nuts.
> 
> First after I have finished watching a recorded show the HR20 it goes back to the beginning of the list. I then have to page down until I get to the next show I want to watch. On the Tivo it goes back to the last place I was at on the List.


Yes, this is at least an annoyance.


bafuerst said:


> Second when I'm watching a recorded show that I have already watched part of, I have to fast forward all the way to the part I have not watched. I don't seem to have much luck using the 4 option in fast forward because it just seems to skip to random parts of the show, and the 3 option is not very fast so it takes a long time to get to the part I have not watched yet. On the Tivo I can start to fast forward and then press the 30 second skip button to skip in 15 min. increments. So far I have not found a way to do that on the HR20.


Are you stopping the show? or did it run thru when you stopped watching. When I stop a recording or switch to another recording or live, when I return to the show I am taken right where I left off.

That said, I do agree the advanced trickplay on the HR20 is very poorly designed by using "press and hold" buttons on the remote. While it was a creative attempt, it doesn't work in real world settings. And 3 seconds is an eternity.


bafuerst said:


> Third when I watch a recorded show and use any of the trick play options the voice gets out of sync with the audio. This happens almost all of the time but it is not always as noticeable and the show can be watched, however I would say about 30% of the time it makes the show unwatchable.


Hasn't happened to me. Is it mostly on MPEG4 HD or commonly on any channel?


bafuerst said:


> Last I hate the remote.
> 
> Six of the above problems happen on both of my HR20's, the audio sync problem only happens on one of them.
> 
> ...


HTH,
Tom


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> It won't just decide to record from the SD channel. You made a mistake while setting up the recording, and chose to record the wrong channel.


I assure you that what I say is true. At first I thought the same thing so I deleted the season pass, or whatever it's called on the HR20 and set it up again, and still the same problem occurred on both machines. One funny thing, I've noticed that it almost always happens when recording "What about Jim". BTW its funny because that's my Wife's favorite show so the HR20 is not winning her over anytime soon.


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## RehabMan (Mar 11, 2007)

bafuerst said:


> Third when I watch a recorded show and use any of the trick play options the voice gets out of sync with the audio. This happens almost all of the time but it is not always as noticeable and the show can be watched, however I would say about 30% of the time it makes the show unwatchable.


I notice the same thing, especially on local HD channels (which I believe are Mpeg4). A work around is to hit pause twice after the trick play -- that usually does the trick. Hopefully D* fixes this one soon.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> I deleted the season pass, or whatever it's called on the HR20 and set it up again, and still the same problem occurred on both machines.


How are you setting up the Series Link? Through a search, or double pressing Record in the guide?


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## RehabMan (Mar 11, 2007)

bafuerst said:


> I assure you that what I say is true. At first I thought the same thing so I deleted the season pass, or whatever it's called on the HR20 and set it up again, and still the same problem occurred on both machines. One funny thing, I've noticed that it almost always happens when recording "What about Jim". BTW its funny because that's my Wife's favorite show so the HR20 is not winning her over anytime soon.


Are you using Search or the Guide to setup your series record?

The hits displayed by Search can be very misleading. Either by poor user interface design or bugs in search, it lets you think you've chosen a specific show on a particular channel in the first step, when in fact it has only shown the channel for information purposes, since the resulting search shows all channels with that program. On top of that poor design decision, it then chooses to only display the channel # instead of the full chanel name (on the search results), such that you can't tell which channel you're actually looking at unless you know the order it generally lists them. Two poor design decisions == lots of confusion.

As an example, if I do a title search here (Seattle) on "Evening Magazine," I see (during the first step):

Evening Magazine 5- KING
Evening Magazine 5- SE5
Evening Magazine 16- SE16

No matter which one I choose, I will get the same results and this time the call letters are left off the search results:

Evening Magazine xxx yyy 5
Evening Magazine xxx yyy 5
Evening Magazine xxx yyy 16

Which one of those 5's is the HD channel? Unless the program in question is an HD program and marked appropriately, you don't know...

Hopefully this one gets fixed soon too. I cannot for the life of me figure out what the heck they were thinking when they designed this.

It would help if the D* engineers and UI folks had some time to take the box home and actually _use_ it for themselves, I think... Where I used to work, we called this "dogfooding" or "eating your own dogfood" and it was very useful in finding problems in products before they made their way to the customer.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

RehabMan said:


> Where I used to work, we called this "dogfooding" or "eating your own dogfood"


Would your former employer happen to be Microsoft?


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Are you stopping the show? or did it run thru when you stopped watching. When I stop a recording or switch to another recording or live, when I return to the show I am taken right where I left off.


I'm aware that when I stop a show it will start where I left off when I start it again.

The problem I have starts when I think I can lie down on the couch and watch TV. As far as I know there is not a DVR made that will stop playing when I fall asleep. So I will shoulder part of the blame for that annoyance.


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## RehabMan (Mar 11, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Would your former employer happen to be Microsoft?


Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! In public profile...


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bafuerst said:


> I'm aware that when I stop a show it will start where I left off when I start it again.
> 
> The problem I have starts when I think I can lie down on the couch and watch TV. As far as I know there is not a DVR made that will stop playing when I fall asleep. So I will shoulder part of the blame for that annoyance.


I resemble that behavior all too well. 

As for the other questions? Particularly SD recordings? What does the history show?

Cheers,
Tom


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

RehabMan said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! In public profile...


I promise I didn't look at your profile. I just knew that Microsoft used that term, and combined that with your location.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

RehabMan said:


> Are you using Search or the Guide to setup your series record?
> 
> The hits displayed by Search can be very misleading. Either by poor user interface design or bugs in search, it lets you think you've chosen a specific show on a particular channel in the first step, when in fact it has only shown the channel for information purposes, since the resulting search shows all channels with that program. On top of that poor design decision, it then chooses to only display the channel # instead of the full chanel name (on the search results), such that you can't tell which channel you're actually looking at unless you know the order it generally lists them. Two poor design decisions == lots of confusion.
> 
> ...


No, I open the guide, find the time, channel, and show I want to record and I then press the record button twice.

BTW on both of my HR20's the SD local channels are not in my list of favorites so it would be very hard for me to select anything other than the HD channel.

I called DirecTV for this issue and they where little help. Although they did give me $100 off my bill and said that it will be fixed in a future release. That was I think 3 or 4 months ago.

I've also reset everything on both of my HR20's twice. The most recent time was after getting the new guide color update.

Also, I have all of the tools to create RG6 cables from when I rewired my house 3 years ago, and I have replaced the compression connectors from the receivers to the switch and from the switch to the dish, with no help. Directv also came out and checked the dish and it was fine.

I'm currently redoing my home theater. When it is done I have a 16 port multiswitch that I'm going to use so I can have more than 4 receivers. Sometime soon I'm going to get in the attic and replace the current multi-switch to see if that helps, but I'm putting very little hope it that helping.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> I resemble that behavior all too well.
> 
> As for the other questions? Particularly SD recordings? What does the history show?
> 
> ...


Wow good question. I never thought to look there (and I'm not being sarcastic). My guess is that it would show the SD channel but I will have to look tomorrow. The history on the living room HR20 has no local history since I reset it. I'm sure the BR one does because it just happened last week, however I would surely get the look from my wife if I go in there and turn the TV on now. My wife already gives me hell for worrying way too much about TV, and as much as I hate to admit it she's right. If I walked in there now and told her what I was doing at 1:00 in the morning she would take my remotes away.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

No worries at all. I too know not to awaken or otherwise disturb my wife at 1am. We're here to help--and all too often around that clock. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Haps (Jun 15, 2007)

Xaa said:


> Bulk play
> 
> Xaa


What's this?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> I assure you that what I say is true. At first I thought the same thing so I deleted the season pass, or whatever it's called on the HR20 and set it up again, and still the same problem occurred on both machines. One funny thing, I've noticed that it almost always happens when recording "What about Jim". BTW its funny because that's my Wife's favorite show so the HR20 is not winning her over anytime soon.


"what about Jim" or "according to Jim"? I have "according to jim" (FOX) setup and they are mixing old and new shows on the same channel. There is like 1 a week that is new and I believe that the new ones are HD.. the old ones are SD.. so I get like 6 SD and 1 HD a week..


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Haps said:


> What's this?


Group play is you you can play a whole group of shows with one key press from MyPlayList. With the group name highlighted just press play and all the items in the group will play in order (depending on your sort order).

And you can do a group delete by pushing dash-dash on the highlight group name.

Cheers,
Tom


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Oh by the way if it is a SD show on an HD channel you can tell because you can't crop/stretch the picture.. it will be stuck on pillarbox..


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

The HR10 will be obsolete after D10 is switched "on".
,
I have missed my beloved HR10 a total of 10 minutes. And I LOVE TiVo. 

The HR20 has become a damn good box.

I actaully ave an old Phillips D*TiVo. I wanted to copy a show from it to my DVD. After using the HR20 for 8 weeks, I was amazed at how clunky the TiVo seemed.

TiVo, at least as it exists for DirecTV is akin to Microsoft Bob.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I was amazed at how clunky the TiVo seemed.


All biases aside. When I go back to the TiVo (which I loved at one time) it really now does seem somewhat "clunky", so I agree with the post above.

Again, all biases aside, not looking to start a UI debate, but to be able to watch a show in the upper right-hand corner and play around with settings, look for recordings, play with the favorites list, whatever ... all while continuing to watch the show is very nice.

And once you learn the layout of all the menus, it's just different (maybe no better or worse, just different).


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> And I LOVE TiVo.


Confirm. I recall w_t_g being very vocal about concerns over switching to the HR20, then being equally vocal in praising after the switch.

Sorry to have to say, but after trying other platforms, I now find TiVo just the slightest bit overrated.


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## jahgreen (Dec 15, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> Now on to things that drive me nuts.
> 
> On the Tivo I can start to fast forward and then press the 30 second skip button to skip in 15 min. increments. So far I have not found a way to do that on the HR20.


Press and hold FF.

Regarding guide speed, have you turned off animation?


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

houskamp said:


> "what about Jim" or "according to Jim"? I have "according to jim" (FOX) setup and they are mixing old and new shows on the same channel. There is like 1 a week that is new and I believe that the new ones are HD.. the old ones are SD.. so I get like 6 SD and 1 HD a week..


Again I assure you that the show is being recorded on the SD channel. I know this because just last week my wife stated watching "according to Jim" and I hear "it's doing it again". I go back and press the guide button to see according to Jim recording on the SD channel with the HD version clearly listed in the guide above it with HD right next to it. I canceled the show and then told it to record the HD version again.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> The HR10 will be obsolete after D10 is switched "on".


Yep Sure! 

It will be as obsolete as any other D* DVR that is capable of recording SD channels and HD MPEG 2 and OTA channels. Given the track record and reliability of the R15 there will still be many HR10s out there doing their job.

Comments like that just highlight the fact you don't have any idea what's really going on out there. Just because you want all the new items D* is promising (note, not delivered yet) doesn't mean a good, dependable SD DVR (with OTA HD capability) isn't in demand. In fact very far from obsolete.

Seems everyone keeps forgetting the SD DVR offering hasn't received an update since January.


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

bto4wd said:


> Yep Sure!
> 
> It will be as obsolete as any other D* DVR that is capable of recording SD channels and HD MPEG 2 and OTA channels. Given the track record and reliability of the R15 there will still be many HR10s out there doing their job.
> 
> ...


And this proves your point how?


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

SuperTech1 said:


> And this proves your point how?


Are DTivo SD DVRs obsolete? Is the R15 obsolete simply because it only does SD? The HR10 can do all of that plus HD OTA. Far from obsolete.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> Are DTivo SD DVRs obsolete? Is the R15 obsolete simply because it only does SD? The HR10 can do all of that plus HD OTA. Far from obsolete.


Instead of obsolete; how about "depreciated"

As the "value" of the HR10-250 is going to drop significantly comes September, as a DirecTV HD-DVR....


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

The HR10 is absolutely obsolete. One of the definitions of the word is:


> out-of-date: superseded by something newer, though possibly still in use


That describes the HR10 perfectly.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> The HR10 is absolutely obsolete. One of the definitions of the word is:
> 
> 
> > out-of-date: superseded by something newer, though possibly still in use
> ...


Good thing the quote was "something newer". :grin:

Although, technically, the definition you provided means a 2007 GMC Yukon is obsolete as soon as the 2008 model hits the market. Not sure the source of your definition, but according to www.m-w.com the definition of obsolete is:



> 1 a : no longer in use or no longer useful <an obsolete word> b : of a kind or style no longer current : OLD-FASHIONED <an obsolete technology>


I do not agree any DTivo fits that definition. As Earl stated, maybe "depreciated" fits, but I still find it strange that all of you that love your HR20s and are completely satisfied with it feel the need to convince everyone else that the HR10 is "obsolete".


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

If your main goal is to receive the new MPEG4 HD channels, then yes it's obsolete.
If not, then it isn't. 

I don't use OTA... so for me it's obsolete.

However, it was stated earlier that TIVO hasn't added any new features w/ the release of the S3.


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## Tony Chick (Aug 24, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> If your main goal is to receive the new MPEG4 HD channels, then yes it's absolete.
> If not, then it isn't.
> 
> I don't use OTA... so for me it's absolete.
> ...


Hey, a new word - I love it 
absolete = Absolutely Obsolete

Obsolute could also mean the same thing.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Tony Chick said:


> Hey, a new word - I love it
> absolete = Absolutely Obsolete
> 
> Obsolute could also mean the same thing.


 Thanks for the heads up. I'm on allergy meds...heads in a little bit of a fog.
I went back and fixed it.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

I am amazed at the traffic and emotion this thread has received. All I did was state that I thought my TIVO's time had come. I had no intention on starting an all out "which one is better" argument. 

It is amazing to me that people get so upset about other people's opinions. Why does anyone get upset that I think my HR20 is more useful to me than my TIVO? It's an opinion. If you don't agree - it's okay. 

I guess I thought some of the TIVO folks would give me an ounce of credit when I said it was time to switch to the HR20 since I have been on the TIVO side of the fence for most of the last 9 months. oh well - to each his own (DVR).


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Uh...Jay, welcome to the Internet! 

The most popular divisive topic, outside of politics, religion, gender, or race on the Internet is Mac vs. PC. I recall the E* vs. D* threads on DBS Forums, then when DVRs came out there was some in-fighting with UltimateTV vs. DirecTV with TiVo.

They say you never forget your first love, and for a lot of people, their first introduction to the magic of DVR was TiVo and there's no doubt it's inspired both brand loyalty and the reputation of being the "face of DVR". But, the fact is that there was never a time when TiVo was the only option. But, a lot of folks never felt motivated to consider, let alone audition, another option. Took me awhile, but curiosity won out. Unlike the horror stories at TCF, I came out of it unscathed and just a bit wiser. There are folks who know what they want and don't want to consider another option....until the absolutely have to, like moving to HDTV. There is no UTV or ReplayTV HD option, so I have to believe those fans have slowly dwindled in number. Some folks hold out for a DIRECTV MPEG-4 TiVo option. Nothing's impossible, but if it did come along, it ain't hittin' the street tomorrow. Either the deployment of new HD from the two new satellites or time might dwindle those numbers.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Okay, I give. The HR10 is obsolete. Please, any HR10 owners feel free to send me your obsolete equipment and I will properly dispose of said equipment in a eco-friendly manner.


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

bto4wd said:


> Okay, I give. The HR10 is obsolete. Please, any HR10 owners feel free to send me your obsolete equipment and I will properly dispose of said equipment in a eco-friendly manner.


I recommend plugging it into 220v for a great 4th of July fireworks show.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> Okay, I give. The HR10 is obsolete. Please, any HR10 owners feel free to send me your obsolete equipment and I will properly dispose of said equipment in a eco-friendly manner.


See, once you find acceptance, peace will follow. I bet you are feeling better already.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> See, once you find acceptance, peace will follow. I bet you are feeling better already.


I surely will once I see a few turn up on my doorstep! :grin:


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

*"I am amazed at the traffic and emotion this thread has received. All I did was state that I thought my TIVO's time had come. I had no intention on starting an all out "which one is better" argument."*

I think what many of us from the Tivo side feel is the HR20 has gained acceptance because it has worn people down (i.e. after months of not working their glad they don't have to reboot, etc), but it's not of the quality we are looking for.

Just look at this thread for proof - there was a comment from one person that he can't even change channels in some cases, and the reply was - oh yeah, that's supposed to be fixed in an upcoming release. There are still plenty of examples like this showing its still a crapshoot for many people. We read on here about people never having any troubles, but then we also read of folks just having gotten the box and it doesn't work, and the suggestion is to send it back and hope for a better box. That's not the kind of quality that I want to sign up for another 2 years with.

Of course the other major thing is the user interface. There are many people on the forum who say its fine, but also a lot of folks who say they don't like it at all. So, that's the other reason a lot of us don't want the box and will hope for something else.

I too am surprised at the intensity of emotion, considering the track record for what I consider to be a ho hum product - nothing earth shattering in new features. It could be because if a customer wants mpeg4, that's all they can get. So D* is forcing people to accept it, especially if you were still on some kind of long-term commitment. I still have the opinion that if Tivo had an mepg4 box too, this box wouldn't have the following it does now.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

RS4 said:


> *"I am amazed at the traffic and emotion this thread has received. All I did was state that I thought my TIVO's time had come. I had no intention on starting an all out "which one is better" argument."*
> 
> I think what many of us from the Tivo side feel is the HR20 has gained acceptance because it has worn people down (i.e. after months of not working their glad they don't have to reboot, etc), but it's not of the quality we are looking for.
> 
> Just look at this thread for proof - there was a comment from one person that he can't even change channels in some cases, and the reply was - oh yeah, that's supposed to be fixed in an upcoming release. There are still plenty of examples like this showing its still a crapshoot for many people. We read on here about people never having any troubles, but then we also read of folks just having gotten the box and it doesn't work, and the suggestion is to send it back and hope for a better box. That's not the kind of quality that I want to sign up for another 2 years with.


I made the comment, so I'll say a bit more. IT HAS BEEN FIXED. Many of us have the fix. It only appeared to a particular set of settings so was not a problem for everyone and there always has been a workaround that is not painful at all. I just can't say more outside of the Cutting Edge forums.


> Of course the other major thing is the user interface. There are many people on the forum who say its fine, but also a lot of folks who say they don't like it at all. So, that's the other reason a lot of us don't want the box and will hope for something else.
> 
> I too am surprised at the intensity of emotion, considering the track record for what I consider to be a ho hum product - nothing earth shattering in new features. It could be because if a customer wants mpeg4, that's all they can get. So D* is forcing people to accept it, especially if you were still on some kind of long-term commitment. I still have the opinion that if Tivo had an mepg4 box too, this box wouldn't have the following it does now.


You seem to be willing to listen to the supporters of the Tivo's who don't actually have an HR20. You seem to be willing to listen to the people who have a hardware problem (it happens to all manufacturers). You seem to be willing look at the old history of the HR20. But since you seem to completely discount the current status, the current HR20 advocates, the current HR20 advocates _who had been Tivo lovers_, and are unwilling to try an HR20, I am forced to question your motives. That kind of selective listening does not seem to indicate an open mind at all.

If you had been saying these things 7 months ago, you might have had some validity to your analysis--but then there were more people complaining and fewer supporting. Time has moved on, the HR20 has improved, the Tivo hasn't moved a bit. Let me ask you this? How did you ever become convinced to try a Tivo all that long ago? (rhetorical question.)

Tom


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

> Of course the other major thing is the user interface. There are many people on the forum who say its fine, but also a lot of folks who say they don't like it at all. So, that's the other reason a lot of us don't want the box and will hope for something else.


If you're waiting for something "everyone" loves you're in for a *long* wait.
Keep hoping while we enjoy our HR20's.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Apple verses Microsoft. 
Bose verses xxxx
Tivo verses HR-20.
Ford verses Chevy.
One horse verses another.
God love a country that lets us have the freedom to choose. !pride

What ever my personal agenda is, I can find "data" to support it.

Was the HR-20 crappy when it first came out? For some of us it was.
Has it become a fairly good working unit? Mine has, so my answer is yes.
Did Tivo have the same problems when it came out? Yes, there are many postings that sound just like the HR-20s [change name, posting are the same].
A Ford is not a Chevy. Never will be. 
The HR-20 will never be a Tivo, and it seems a Tivo will never be an HR-20.
Pick your poison, run with it. If you want to discuss what you have with others of similar likes, go to the right forum.
Guess what? This is a HR-20 forum, so we like it. I don't go over to the Tivo forum and start pushing my agenda there. I think they call that "trolling" [for a pissing contest].

:box: :listenup: :hair: :soapbox: :beatdeadhorse: :bang :kickbutt: :bonk1: :whatdidid :wave:


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

RS4 said:


> I think what many of us from the Tivo side feel ...


Listen, you're not the TiVo side. We are. We had TiVo's before you and participated to make them better. We are mostly all here TiVo folk and stronger than you have ever been. Your blindness to other things (well, maybe selective sight not total blindness) doesn't make you a stronger TiVo supporter. you're not and you never have been.

When I'm here, this is my forum, when I'm at TC, that's my forum too, not yours to any greater degree RS4.

All you are is a kibitzer. Try it and then come here and complain. Your bias should allow you to find lots of things to gripe about. Trying to repackage other's experiences to help you solve the wonder of what we all see is growing boring.

DTV didn't wear us down. We mostly all kept our HR10's and expected to need them as back up. Then something happened. But it only happens to those that open their mind. That's not you.

Xaa


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

This is an HR20 Forum. There are TIVO forums here at DBStalk, but i think it's safe to say that even those do not get much mileage here. I do not dislike TIVO, but if I want to discuss TIVO i go to TCF. Let the TIVO Huggers goto TFC and let the HR20's folks stay here on our side of the fence. Although this thread has stayed civil and forums are meant to be for open discussion, this is getting a bit old.

As VOS said, I don't go over to TCF to stir the pot.
Beisdes...we have EB and Tom.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

Actually, I was basing my statements on folks who posted in this thread. The OP said he was satisfied with the HR20 and it was time for the rest of us Tivo users to jump on the bandwagon. 

During some of the 200 entries in this thread, a poster told us he just recently got an HR20 and he was having problems with what I consider to be basic functions. This would tell me he just got new hardware, not something from six or nine months ago. I saw the typical responses of send back the box and then you saying that something would be fixed in the next release. So, my impression is that D* is still having problems with basic functions, and hence my concerns about quality.

Other TIVO posters in the 200 said the UI is not as easy to use as the Tivo, and yes they got used to it as with most products, their overall preference would be the Tivo.

I've no doubt that this box has come a long way and that for many of you it's ideal. I think if you were coming along brand new and read the kinds of things I'm reading, you'd see the concern. But, I honestly don't expect that here. It makes perfect sense to me that you folks see the HR20 in a different light than those of us who don't own one. I'm not criticizing that in any manor, shape, or form. I was just trying to explain through all of my replies why the outsiders see this as a much more cloudy issue then many owners - and that the information guiding me in those concerns is right here in threads like this - new people having trouble with the box. 

Of course, there are lots of reasons for a brand new box to have problems, but there appears to be a significant number of folks reporting basic issues to make me wonder about the current quality. I doubt if the UI comparisons will ever get addressed.

As for why I bought the 5 Tivos and sent 7 others to D* - I found the Tivo forum years ago and being interested in technology, I visited the forum quite a lot - almost daily for at least 6 months. I was interested in the Replay and Tivo and mildly interested in Microsoft's Ultimate. (I don't believe MS ever gets anything right the first time, so it became a very low 3rd choice for me.)

The thing that impressed me about the Tivo forum was all of the inside knowledge and genuine feeling of helpfulness of answering questions. I also feel that about this forum, but I also feel a great sense of ugliness. (I used my Tivo forum id so folks could see my biases - and of course every person is biased whether they admit it or not. I was called names after my very first message, and I see that with other posters, not just me.) 

It's of course hard to keep emotion out of a discussion group. But nevertheless, then animosity seems to run high here. I'm guessing that's because there has been a sense of frustration with D*. But it becomes harder to have discussions when the emotions are so strong.

I want to do business with a company that I feel good about. I have lost faith in what I once thought was a great company that was offering good products at a good price. (I owned my first 12 foot satellite dish in 1984.) I was excited when D* and USSB came along because they were taking technology to new heights.

In the past couple of years, I've changed my mind greatly about D*, as have a huge number of other folks if you look at the ratings. I believe D* and Tivo had a great combination product and completely changed the way I viewed TV. I became an enthusiastic viewer of channels that I had started hating because of all the commercials that were constantly being repeated at every other commercial break. Tivo would help me find other programs that it thought I would like and many many times, I added them to my list.

But in the last couple of years, the enthusiasm has faded. In fact, I have convinced people to not use D* because of the new attitudes. Now D* is a company that I put up with. In fact, I was quite excited to find out that my commitment was up when I canceled the NFLST the other day. So, now I'm free to look around again.

Of course now is a great time to be making a new 2-year agreement with D* because it looks like I can get free equipment and then there is the promise of mpeg4, but I think it's too early for me. I mean absolutely no offense to anyone in this group, but I honestly feel that D* has come up with an inferior product, fraught with problems that may not be cleared up for a while.

I'm disgusted that I can't bring the new box home and try it for myself. I'm disgusted that D* has changed the way I feel about them. I'm at the point where I feel the only way I can get D*'s attention is through my wallet, hence the reluctance to accept a product I don't feel good about. As I mentioned earlier, my account number is 13033, so I doubt there are very many here who have been with D* longer then I.

I'm truly grateful for this forum. It has helped me see D* in a new light. It's helped my see that D* is no longer a leading edge company that I once saw it as. There is no doubt that D* will fix the box's issues one way or another and come out with new features, but it's the attitude that D* projects right now that I don't like. Part of that attitude is - "get the box out and we'll get it running later, but above all else, don't let them out of the commitment"

The attitude of this forum is quite different from the attitude of the Tivo forum when the DTivos first came out, and that is one of the major factors for keeping me from getting this box. There is still way too much negativity by new users, and that tells me it's not time for me to get something I only half accept now.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

At the risk of getting majorly flamed, I have a confession. While I did in fact replace my TIVO with an HR20-100, at the last minute I decided to keep the TIVO activated and put it in another room. 

So it won't get much use, but I guess I wasn't ready to completely deactivate it. Oh well. I still will use the HR20's as my primary boxes.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> You seem to be willing to listen to the supporters of the Tivo's who don't actually have an HR20. You seem to be willing to listen to the people who have a hardware problem (it happens to all manufacturers). You seem to be willing look at the old history of the HR20. But since you seem to completely discount the current status, the current HR20 advocates, the current HR20 advocates _who had been Tivo lovers_, and are unwilling to try an HR20, I am forced to question your motives. That kind of selective listening does not seem to indicate an open mind at all.


Now you're seeing why those us who have seen his postings at TCF in regards to the HR20 have issues with RS4. The term "broken record" comes to mind.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

:rant: 

BTW: you might want to delete you account number.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

It's been pointed out that this is not a Tivo forum, but the OP was expressing his opinion why those of Tivo users who did not have an HR20 could now get one. I responded as to why I wasn't getting the box, and then several others pointed out why they didn't like the box compared to Tivo.

And yes, there are many people here who come over to the Tivo forum to convince us what a marvel this box is when there is still room for doubt.


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## elric (Jul 4, 2007)

I have been a lifelong DirecTV TIVO user.

About a month ago our 36" Sony TV developed attitude and ceased to function.

We bought a Vizio GV47LF - 47" LCD HDTV to replace it. The picture on it was not as good as the old Sony had some fancy combing filter that enhanced our picture. So I started the quest for a better picture by installing a Channel Master 4228 antenna & a Channel Master 3044 amplifier.

OTA HDTV + 47" LCD HDTV = impressive picture.

This started making the old low resolution 480i Sony DirecTivo's unwatchable. Forcing me to look at my choices for changing to a higher quality signal.

Initially I thought the cost was going to be $199 for the 1st receiver & $399 for the 2nd one. I checked into Comcast and was ready to pull the trigger on their Triple play package giving me HDTV cable \ High Speed Internet \ Digital Phone. I even scheduled an appointment for the install.

Then I called DirecTV and they were not happy with me when I attempted to cancel my 8 year old subscription. They hooked me up with two of their HR20-100 receivers, installed the new 5 LNB dish and gave me 4 new hookups on the outside wall of the house in my living room. I wanted a 3rd HD DVR but they were adamant that I will need to wait one year in order to get a lease deal from them on the a 3rd HD DVR. They threw in 6 months of Free HBO & Showtime and a $10 credit for the HD access fee for 12 months. My total cost out of pocket was about $25.

On July 3rd, 2007 everything was installed. The 1st HD DVR was installed and connected on my old 3 LNB dish. Everything was working fine except the HD channels. Later that day another installer came and installed the new 5 LNB dish and second receiver. The 2nd receiver had a 725 authorization problem for about 4 hours. After a couple of calls we got that problem resolved. The 1st receiver however was not happy with the 5 LNB dish and the 2nd tuner would not function.

We re-ran the setup twice, hit the dreaded RED button once. Finally on a last ditch effort before they send a tech and replace the unit we did a software RESET EVERYTHING... This re-activated the 2nd tuner and got the unit working perfectly.

The 7+ year old DirecTivos are in the closet now. I will miss my trusty old Tivo's but I absolutely have to have HD. Anything less is unwatchable.

Next I need BluRay or HD DVD or possibly a hybrid player that does both.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

*Lifelong TIVO user swayed to the DARK SIDE*

Another option: go to buy a HR-20 at BB, CC, Costco, etc.
Come home hook it up to the feeds you have and call D* to activate it.
I don't think you'll will find the CSR saying "I'm sorry, we can't add that to your account and get more money from you".

What you can't do is get "deals" from D* for the next 6 to 12 months, but this doesn't stop you from going the retail route.
[Just so you know: BB will refund the box if it hasn't been activated.]


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

> RS4:
> "I'm truly grateful for this forum. It has helped me see D* in a new light. It's helped my see that D* is no longer a leading edge company that I once saw it as."


I agree with this statement except for the last part.
Since, I've been on this forum my respect for D* has grown greatly and I believe they *are* leading the way in cutting edge technology for DBS and will continue to improve and distance themselves from their competitors.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Xaa said:


> DTV didn't wear us down. We mostly all kept our HR10's and expected to need them as back up. Then something happened. But it only happens to those that open their mind. That's not you.
> 
> Xaa


What happened?

Our HR20 got better, but it's still far from being perfect, and I have a very "open mind." That has absolutely nothing to do with missed recordings. There are still many of us who continue to have problems with the unit, but have learned to live with it and are tired of *****ing about it to D*, cuz it gets us absolutely nowhere.


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## hookemfins (Jul 3, 2007)

RS4 said:


> I'm disgusted that I can't bring the new box home and try it for myself.


Have you thought about buying the HR 20 at Best Buy and if you don't like it take the unit back within 30 days? I was just there and asked before I responded here and they said they have a return policy of 30 days.

Your other comments about DTV's customer service is wrong. I think they are far superior to cable. Every time I have a problem and email them, they call back and get the problem solved, including a new HD 20.

I thought my first post here was going to be a a total bash fest of the HR 20. While the unit is far from perfect, some of the tips I have found on these forums has helped minimize the problems. While the menus are faster I find navigating them is slower. The fast search is slower and clumsy compared to the HR 10. However, I have seen some improvements and within time the HR 20 will be a good unit on par with the functions of the HR 10.

Software updates have stopped the problem of blank recordings and I do still on occasion get audio drop outs on local HD but not that often.

DTV is listening and working on the problems. I can see the improvements.

I think if everyone here logs onto DTV's web site and contact them via email about the DLB, we can pressure them into releasing or developing the software for that feature. It can only help if enough of us email them. They do read and respond to the emails.

My current equipment: HD 10-250, HR 20, H2 and Sat B2


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Marcia_Brady said:


> What happened?
> 
> Our HR20 got better, but it's still far from being perfect, and I have a very "open mind." That has absolutely nothing to do with missed recordings. There are still many of us who continue to have problems with the unit, but have learned to live with it and are tired of *****ing about it to D*, cuz it gets us absolutely nowhere.


For me? The HR20 performed, had some issues, but performed well enough. Then the visits to the HR10 diminished and became more painful dealing with the slow interface. Finally, the blank recordings and other show stoppers went away, the HR10 was running for nothing and was finally sold.

Don't get me wrong Marcia, I don't think everyone's experience is mine and I surely don't think just because yours is less positive that it means your mind is closed at all. You tried it, your mind was/is open to whatever you learned and preferred.


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## SmackDaddy (Jul 5, 2007)

I currently have two 10-250's, one 20-700 and one SD DTiVo plugged into an AvAtrix system that is distributed throughout the house. 

I have had a DTiVo or HDTiVo since about 1 month after the DTiVo was introduced.

I was leery of trying the 20-700, but because of MPEG4 I decided to try it 6 months ago. My wife, who has long considered the TiVo the only technology I've ever purchased to be worthwhile, will watch the 20-700 every time if her program is on it. 

I'm seriously considering getting three more 20-700's for the rack and completely eliminating TiVo's from our setup. They are EASIER to use and lightening FAST. I never used suggestions or extensively used wishlists, so the HR20-700 is THE choice for this longtime TiVo user.

The fact that you can plug hard-drives into it just makes it THAT much better.


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## jahgreen (Dec 15, 2006)

RS4 said:


> The OP said he was satisfied with the HR20 and it was time for the rest of us Tivo users to jump on the bandwagon.


Actually, that's not what the OP said. He said those *sitting on the fence* should now pull the trigger. You clearly are not sitting on the fence, but are rooted on the other side. That's not meant to be a criticism of you--it just means the OP wasn't talking about folks with your preferences.

And to answer one of your points: DirecTV did not wear me down over a course of improvements. I had a SD DirecTivo for over three years. I purchased an HDTV last November and wanted an HD DVR. I lurked here and read the extremely negative comments about the HR20 that prevailed through the end of 2006 and into the beginning of 2007 (these negative comments came from mostly the same folks now accused of being HR20 fanboys). But by March or April, I perceived a change in tone that indicated the box was working pretty darn well. I think the posters have simply been honest (maybe with a few rah-rah exceptions).

I had my HR20 installed in mid-May. In a little less than two months, I've had two freezes, one due to a software download (my DirecTivo never did that--but I'm not sure its software was ever updated). Otherwise performance has been flawless (here I'm knocking on wood and hoping these aren't famous last words). I may not push the box's capabilities to the extent some do, but for me it does everything that my SD Tivo did--plus something my TiVo could not: I get to record HD shows and watch them whenever I want.

For someone truly in live with Tivo's interface, or DLB, then I say stay with Tivo (unless you don't have an HD DVR alternative). For anyone who has been *on the fence*, waiting for the HR20 to be ready for prime time, I agree with the OP.

P.S. Ok, I admit it, I would LIKE to have DLBs, but I'm not losing sleep over it.


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## FreddyC (May 14, 2007)

After reading through the forums, I've decided to get the HR20. I'll keep Tivo in my bedroom, but it doesn't make sense for me to have a brand new HD TV and not have a decent amount of HD programming to watch on it.

I don't know any of you, but your posts and knowledge have helped me out. I do not fear the HR20, even though I REALLY like my Tivo. It's time for me to move on.

I got the HR20 for nothing from DirecTV. That's all I wanted out of them as a 12 year customer. I just called and told them I'd been with them, was happy with them, but not about paying $299.00 just to enjoy my new TV with them. 

Freddy


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## Snoofie (May 29, 2003)

FreddyC said:


> After reading through the forums, I've decided to get the HR20. I'll keep Tivo in my bedroom, but it doesn't make sense for me to have a brand new HD TV and not have a decent amount of HD programming to watch on it.
> 
> I don't know any of you, but your posts and knowledge have helped me out. I do not fear the HR20, even though I REALLY like my Tivo. It's time for me to move on.
> 
> I got the HR20 for nothing from DirecTV. That's all I wanted out of them as a 12 year customer. I just called and told them I'd been with them, was happy with them, but not about paying $299.00 just to enjoy my new TV with them.


These forums helped me make the decision to get the HR20 as well, and have helped me with my Tivo withdrawals. I have been really enjoying the HR20 and whenever I miss my Tivo, I just turn on an HD channel and suddenly it all goes away! So far , I have had minor complaints about the HR20, all of them documented to death in these forums, but they are all things that I can live with and adapt to. Once the decision was made to switch, I decided I wasn't going to waste any time whining about how much I miss Tivo. It's over, it's done and what I have gained is greater, in content anyways, than what I have lost.


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## elric (Jul 4, 2007)

To combat the loss of DLB I am using two HR20's and PIP. Not quite the same but the best I could think up. If nothing else I can record 4 shows at a time so that I can get everything I could ever want that is on.

I have tried the record both shows work around method so I can flip back and forth but find using two boxes with PIP to be a better solution.

Still working on explaining the process to everyone in the house who is used to just cranking away on the LIVE TV button.:grin:


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## SmackDaddy (Jul 5, 2007)

FreddyC said:


> After reading through the forums, I've decided to get the HR20. I'll keep Tivo in my bedroom, but it doesn't make sense for me to have a brand new HD TV and not have a decent amount of HD programming to watch on it.
> 
> I don't know any of you, but your posts and knowledge have helped me out. I do not fear the HR20, even though I REALLY like my Tivo. It's time for me to move on.
> 
> ...


Based upon your tone, I don't think you'll miss the TiVo user interface at all. I was as hesitant as you are, but it couldn't have been any easier.

And regardless of what anybody says, having a little pop up menu on the bottom left of the screen that allows you to select a show to play, search, etc. while Live TV (or recorded) plays in the main screen couldn't be any cooler. And it's instantaneous.

Also, pushing the Record button in the guide once to record, twice to set a series link is just as cool too.

You'll be fine.


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## SmackDaddy (Jul 5, 2007)

FreddyC said:


> After reading through the forums, I've decided to get the HR20. I'll keep Tivo in my bedroom, but it doesn't make sense for me to have a brand new HD TV and not have a decent amount of HD programming to watch on it.
> 
> I don't know any of you, but your posts and knowledge have helped me out. I do not fear the HR20, even though I REALLY like my Tivo. It's time for me to move on.
> 
> ...


Based upon your tone, I don't think you'll miss the TiVo user interface at all. I was as hesitant as you are, but it couldn't have been any easier.

And regardless of what anybody says, having a little pop up menu on the bottom left of the screen that allows you to select a show to play, search, etc. while Live TV (or recorded) plays in the main screen couldn't be any cooler. And it's instantaneous.

Also, pushing the Record button in the guide once to record, twice to set a series link is just as cool too.

You'll be fine.


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> Well, since you asked.
> 
> Third, when I tell it to record a show on a HD local channel it sometimes decides that recording the show from the SD local channel is OK. One good thing about this problem is that at least the show is viewable.


This may be true. I have noticed my LILs have guide data for the SD feeds a few days before the HD feeds. Since a series link can jump to a different channel with the HR20 bafuerst could very well be experiencing this issue. Often when I do a NASCAR racing search I find what I am looking for on the SD feed, a day or two later and the search will now find the HD and SD feed. I have gone directly to the guide to confirm the missing HD data.


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## RayJ (Aug 7, 2006)

The bottom line for me has always been the programming. I was a DirecTV ustomer from the very beginning - well over 10 years ago. I remember spending something like $700 for the dish and receiver, so that I could avoid the cable company and get the sports I wanted.

Then came TiVo. I tried the stand alone but it didn't work well through a serial cable or the IR blaster. Then came the DirecTiVo. It changed my life. 

The divorce of TiVo and DirecTV caused me great anguish. I had to choose between the two, and could not stomach the idea of Time Warner Cable. So I held on to my HR10-250 as long as I could, but with all of the new MPEG-4 content, I knew the time would come.

Yesterday, I ordered a HR20. Reading this forum for the last year or so has given me the information I needed to be comfortable making the change. But I will probably still use the expression "I TiVo'd it" for some time.

Wish me well...


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

RayJ said:


> The bottom line for me has always been the programming. I was a DirecTV ustomer from the very beginning - well over 10 years ago. I remember spending something like $700 for the dish and receiver, so that I could avoid the cable company and get the sports I wanted.
> 
> Then came TiVo. I tried the stand alone but it didn't work well through a serial cable or the IR blaster. Then came the DirecTiVo. It changed my life.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the rebel alliance, may the force be with you. You will not regret leaving the dark side, my son.

with practice, you too, will become a jedi master of the hr20.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> You folks must be very forgiving.
> 
> Now I've only had my HR20 since Tuesday. What I will say is it ain't half bad. But the general description I have at this time is that it's "clumsy"....for lack of a better word. Why would I even think that to view/manage my SLs I have to go into SETUP?
> 
> ...


I agree with all your observation except I don't understand #4. But other than #6, none of them bothers me that much. I hate the remote but I got used to it. I am glad it does RF so I can forgive everything else. Comparing MPEG4 trick play to HR10 is not fair. I hate the jumpy trick play but it is getting better. For the fact it handles MPEG4, I can forgive this flaw. I do experience some problems, but I moved on, just like you. I finally got to a point that they have to replace my receiver. But my HR10 was worse anyway.

I took so much sh*t from my wife when I switched from HR10 to HR20. Ever time anything goes wrong with the HR20, I get an earful from my wife. After 8 months, she finally said she kind of liked it. I took the chance to tell her that her HGTV and food channel is coming in HD only on HR20. She gave me a skeptical approval.


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