# Will you be switching from Dish to DirecTV because of the newly announced DVR fees?



## Chris Blount

Obviously this is directed at Dish Network customers.

See this thread if you don't know what I am talking about:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=17141


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## Bob Haller

Yeah I live with the PVR bugs. But once they charge for it it MUST be flawless and sadly I KNOW E isnt going to provide a rock solid PVR.

This leaves me going to D, besides I WANT NAME BASED RECORDINGS!

Now if your charging at least get the license for name based recordings.........


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## Gunnyman

I never understood why dish dint BUY replay...


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## boba

Chris as I already posted I changed from DISH to Directv last Sunday not because of the DVR rates but simply I got fed up with the poor picture quality and the constant software revisions that don't work. My new RCA receivers do the functions that they were supposed to no problems in the 2 1/2 days that I have had them. Yes this price hike for no additional service might have pushed me over the edge if I hadn't alredy jumped. It sure wouldn't have made me want to stay.


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## Mark Holtz

I've already checked with two local DirecTV dealers.


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## guywall

fv3 said:


> How about another choice: "If and/or When I decide to upgrade my DVR, or Dish tries to charge me for my grandfathered unit?"


This would be a good choice. Since I just bought the 721 (because I was tired of waiting for the 522), if they EVER said there would be a fee for DVR, then I would leave.


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## Kagato

It all comes down to what Tivo has in the HD relm. I had the oppertunity to take a very detailed HD survey from Tivo last year. They made it clear they were floating a number of ideas.

It was very apparent that Tivo was giving serious consideration to firewire both for recording and archiving. For me it's simple, if Tivo has an HD unit that will archive to Firewire it's over for Dish. The fees are the same, the software is better.

Another thing to consider though... It was also clear that Tivo was considering a Firewire recording box. Somthing that could hook into the firewire out of a cable STB (if/when that happens) or perhaps even the much heard about but never seen 211.

The last thing is why make 150 and 100 have the same fee? the extra 50 channels are somewhat weak. There's a good change people will downgrade to 100 or as a new customer opt for 100 when without the fee they would have gone for 150.


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## gcutler

I'm grandfathered so won't be paying anything, but doubt I will spend any more money on E* hardware and if my 508 dies or I decide to give it up (Although I have extended warranty), I'll buy a SA TiVo and pay for another Lifetime sub (using my closeted 301) before I would buy any new E* hardware. If D* mirrored the programming requirements I would jump ship, but right now the programming options is what keeps me at E*, if they lost that advantage I'd be gone in a second...and would get Two DTiVos and sell my SA TiVo...


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## Peluso

Everything hinges on the 921 and HD DirecTIVO. I'm sold on Satellite, but more than anything I want a PVR that does HD.


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## Steve Mehs

Undecided, I want to get a DTiVo and sooner or later will, but not at the current moment. I'd be grandfathered from the fee, but I don't not the fact that Dish is changing to use the DVR with it's relatively limited features. 

I have a DTiVo question, from what I understood a phone line was required to receive software updates, I read somewhere recently that the software now comes via satellite, is that true?


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## dfergie

I have 2 direct recievers, 1`in the bedroom and 1 here by the rest of my system, I killed my direct in may as I liked dish programing better, plus loved my 501. The PQ was very close on both and I was grandfathered in on the networks on direct. It will depend on the capabilitys of the directhd tivo compared with the 921. I get the AEP so would not pay the fee, but my 6000 is only 5 months old and would hate to take a loss on it.


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## Mark Lamutt

It will depend for me on what Dish does with the HD channel package. If they compress the signals so they look as bad as they do on Directv, I'm gone. HDTivo, here I come. If the HD channels look like DiscoveryHD does now, then it will be a harder decision. I'm really disappointed with the compression that DTV is imposing on their HD package. I think that Dish is in a better position to offer HD that actually looks HD, but paying an extra $10 or $15 per month every month on top of the $1000 for the 921 really, really sucks.


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## Chris Freeland

Only if D* adds Chattanooga locals and E* also charges an extra $4.99 for the 2nd tuner on the soon coming 522.


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## Danbo

I subscribe to everything, pretty much. So, if the 921 uses the same type of deal, I probably wouldn't be affected except for the purchase of the receiver itself. However, should Tivo come out (or, more specifically, DirecTivo) with a HD dual tuner PVR unit before Dish, I will give that serious consideration in light of the recent fee issue (not to mention buggy 721 software).

By the way, the black screen on channel changes is back. So is the intermittent lock and auto reboot. And another problem, being unable to watch anything on the 2nd tuner if you have the 1st tuner doing a record, with manual stop. I've yet to document all the steps that caused it, but it was a frustrating evening on Sunday when that happened (all because I accidentally hit stop when trying to WATCH an event that was being recorded). Luckily I found out the event was delayed, so decided to do a manual stop to make sure I got it all going. Then the problem popped up. More later, in another post...


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## dfergie

Just got my direct back with my networks, will keep both until the 921 comes out I guess.


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## RAD

I want a PVR/DVR/TiVo for HD. If Dish comes out with it first (doubtful) I may stay. But if Comcast or DirecTV/TiVO are first is't bye bye Charlie. I'm tired of tuning into every Charlie and Tech Chat and having no availabiltiy date announced for a product that was announced what, close to 2 years ago.


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## EricG

No way will Dish come out with ANYTHING with a TiVo logo on it. E* would never pay the licensing fees.


RAD said:


> I want a PVR/DVR/TiVo for HD. If Dish comes out with it first (doubtful) I may stay.


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## 418583

fv3 said:


> How about another choice: "If and/or When I decide to upgrade my DVR, or Dish tries to charge me for my grandfathered unit?"


That's my vote (I selected UNDECIDED above).

It boils down to this. Sometime after Christmas I'll be ready for an HDTV receiver with DVR. If the 921 has a $5 fee (I'm AT100), then DirecTV looks competitive on price. The TiVo box (assuming they don't do anything stupid) is almost certainly better and if DirecTV actually gets smart and makes it a Series 2 *with* Home Media Option then I'm gone...

...think about it. Dish wants $999 for the 921, plus I'll need to buy a Superdish, etc to make it work. DirecTV will no doubt subsidize the equipment purchase to gain a new customer (and provide free installation). Seems like a no brainer to me.


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## Lee L

I won;t say I absolutely will leave E* if they charge fees in general, heck I've had 2 DishPlayers for 3 or 4 years so I am by definition, insane, but if they do slap a fee on the 921 it is a huge check in the negative column for E* when it comes time to make the HD PVR/DVR/AVR/BVR/CVR/ZVR decision. I pay right at $100 a month for sat service as it is and I don;t even qualify for free DVR fees according to the schedule I've seen since I only sub to the lowly package of AT150, HBO, Showtime, Locals and Supers and I have 3 receivers.


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## pjmrt

I voted "No" - but really its "not at this time". My current receivers are grandfathered in w/ no fee - at least until that policy changes too. (Hey Dish - its a shame I can't be certain about your assurance that the 501/508/721 will not have fees) If E* position remains unchanged, well DTV is a distinct option come late next year. That's when I was planning to revamp my system for HDTV. So I will remain a dish customer until next year. After that depends on Dish.


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## angiodan

I also checked undecided. The Supers are a big deal in my household. I'm also getting distant nets, so that includes the CBS-HD. On top of that I've got $50/month of Club Dish credits rolling right now for at least another 6 months.

I'll see what happens in the next few months. I think it stinks that AT150 isn't included in the no fee range. It should be. If they even changed it to that, I would be more compeled to stick with Dish. Like Mark said, the HD compression on Direct has been a real sore point with subs. I hope Dish's HD package rolls out soon.

One side note, Mark from Dish Depot doesn't think ESPN-HD will be coming to Dish anytime soon. That also sucks.


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## btbrossard

I will not pay full price for a PVR that only records dish network signals and then pay a monthly fee for poor software and no advanced TIVOlike features.

I would however, pay a reduced price (about $50) and then pay a monthly fee to avoid the high up front costs.

This news from Dish comes the week after I get a letter in the mail from TimeWarner about their new PVR. $4.95 a month for an 80 GB HD and OnDemand capabilities looks better now.

Thanks Dish!

/Benjamin


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## Wayne

I'm undecided. I have to stay with E* now to get my Lexington, KY locals. When D* starts locals here I will then seriously consider switching especially if D* includes our lower power UPN station. Also D* has a few channels I would want that E* doesn't carry.

I was really looking forword to the 522 from E*, but I won't pay a monthly fee on top of buying new equipment. A low monthly fee without purchasing the equipment would be OK.


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## spanishannouncetable

Steve Mehs said:


> I have a DTiVo question, from what I understood a phone line was required to receive software updates, I read somewhere recently that the software now comes via satellite, is that true?


No one knows. The last software update (going from 2.5 to 3.1) had to be done by phone connection. After the download, the unit no longer required a phone connection to operate.

Under 2.5, the TiVo functions would lock themselves after 28 days without a call out to TiVo. The box had to call them to verify and continue service. With 3.1, Directv controls the service verification as part of their own datastream. Now, after 14 days without a call to TiVo (just to upload anonymous viewer data), the unit will start displaying a nag screen every few days. At 28 days, the nags happen once a day but otherwise the receiver functions normally.

The calls to TiVo are a selectable menu option and can be done any time. The calls to Directv are not forceable. PPV ordering is disabled after a month or so if the box doesn't call Directv. AFAIK, this is the only function which really REQUIRES a phone connection, so if you don't get PPV by remote control purchase you won't need to connect it. PPV purchases can still be made through your online Directv account.

Since Directv now pretty much controls all aspects of these boxes, it is logical to assume they can accept software upgrades via satellite download. However, until the next upgrade occurs we won't know for sure.


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## wipeout

I'm gone come September. I'm tired of this second rate operation. I went with them in the beginning because E* was lecc expensive. But after two years, I'm ready for D* and the Varsity team. 

By the way Nasdaq has an article on the DVR fee from E* and they say onlt the 510 will have the fee.


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## scooper

THat's because the 510 is the only "soon to be released" model...


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## DP1

Mark Lamutt said:


> It will depend for me on what Dish does with the HD channel package. If they compress the signals so they look as bad as they do on Directv, I'm gone. HDTivo, here I come. If the HD channels look like DiscoveryHD does now, then it will be a harder decision. I'm really disappointed with the compression that DTV is imposing on their HD package. I think that Dish is in a better position to offer HD that actually looks HD, but paying an extra $10 or $15 per month every month on top of the $1000 for the 921 really, really sucks.


Just out of curiosity, Mark, have you had an opportunity to sit down and watch the HD channels on D* for any length of time or are you just going on principle and/or what D* subs have been saying about them in the recent past?

You mention Disc HD and it so happens I was able to view that channel on both services for a week or 10 days because I was paid through the 10th on Dish with it, but subbed to D*'s package on the 1st, and they looked identical to me. Course when it might come to other video based HD channels, particularly with some fast action sequences like HDNet or ESPN HD it's hard to say what the difference might be because for now Dish doesnt offer them for comparison anyway.

Come to think of it though, maybe I can do a little comparing this weekend on the Cart races.


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## EvanS

Mark Lamutt said:


> ...It will depend for me on what Dish does with the HD channel package... I think that Dish is in a better position to offer HD...QUOTE]
> 
> I am with mark on this. And to tell you the truth I was thinking this way BEFORE the fee was even announced. To me it is becoming more and more that HD selection and proper delivery of the signal to me, as well as the HD PVR function, are the most important. Of course I am grandfathered with my 501 and 721 and plenty happy enough with how they operate, thank you very much. But the NTSC-type broadcasts are quickly becoming relegated to the status of "just TV".
> So DVD and HD with PVR are my viewing priorities, and have been for the last 8 months or so. So I figure I am looking at just about this time next year to see how at least the baseline HD services from both sat providers compare. And factor into that how each of the providers _appears_ to be positioned to provide additional HD programming while maintaining the quality of delivery. THEN I will need to tally who is charging what vs what do they deliver for that money...and then make MY decision based on what I see as value for the money paid.
> 
> Given all this, as well as having grandfathered equipment, it is WAY too early for me to make a big move one way or the other. Just in the same way as I think that reacting to the D* HD package, at this time, is premature.


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## Jacob S

If the $4.99 DVR fee does not hurt Dish then that charge per DVR receiver will for many subs.


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## Bob Haller

Chris I kinda wish you asked how many of you will recommend dish once this fee is in place?

Given the buggy half $(^!# reputatrion of their PVRs I will never recommend them to anyone again...

If your going to charge for something at least make it a QUALITY product like TIVO and the name based recordings...........


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## TNGTony

Once my Dishplayer bites the dust, if I need a new DVR unit, I'm going to seriously consider the other side. I currently have AEP, DishLatino and other programming coming to $120 a month. Even though I would not have to pay a DVR fee because I have AEP, this PISSES me off. The only reason for this fee is "because we can." There is no other reason. And the "because we can" fees are the ones that drive me away from a company or at least makes me lose all loyalty.

I know that the bean counters at dish are saying, "look at all the money we can make". They have NO clue or at least they don't care how much this is costing in good will.

See ya
Tony


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## Mark Lamutt

DP1 said:


> Just out of curiosity, Mark, have you had an opportunity to sit down and watch the HD channels on D* for any length of time or are you just going on principle and/or what D* subs have been saying about them in the recent past?


I haven't spent a lot of time watching HD on D*. A little here and there, but not for any length of time. My statement was primarily based on what all of the D* subs are saying over at AVS.


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## DP1

Thats cool Mark. I didnt mean to make it sound like I was calling you out on it I just thought the statement "look as bad" was a tad harsh. Certainly D* has been having some issues getting things dialed in and it may be something they truly cant overcome in the long run comparatively speaking. I just wanted to point out that when it came to that one particular channel at least it's not like it looked pristine on Dish and like a bum DVD on D*.


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## ty1on

I have both a standalone TiVo unit (HDR-312 series 1) and a Dish Network PVR (501). The TiVo software is so far superior to that in the Echostar unit that switching is a no brainer.

I will jump to DirecTv in a heartbeat if I have to pay for the inferior software solution in the Dish PVR. 

Yes, it may cost me a little more and there will be kicking and screaming from the wife unit, but I will still jump to DirecTv and the TiVo software.


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## DarrellP

At least I can still get OTA HD on my 6000 without having a Dish account. I will go that route and see what D* has to offer for their PVR. Dish is dead in my eyes.


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## JosephF

My 501 and 721 are grandfathered, therefore I have no reason to leave. However, I will not purchase any other E* DVR recevier that includes a fee. 

I would however reconsider this if they ever provided a DVR box that was something more than just a Digital VCR. This would at least be comparable to what D* offers.


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## SlicerMDM

I'm definately getting an HD / PVR solution in the coming months. I've been a longtime subscriber of Dish Network and have been fairly pleased with them. I've also been impressed with what the 921 and SuperDish "could" become. Because of that, my decision has been weighted towards getting Dish's HD / PVR solution.

However, I have to say that as each day passes ... with little or no news about Dish's plans / release dates / etc.. for the 921 / super dish .... and now with them charging a monthly fee for their inferior PVR (call it what you want, it's a PVR) .... I'm looking more and more at DirecTV's HD / PVR options.

I guess my point is that me staying with Dish Network used to be a given (to me). Now, not only is that NOT the case, I'm actually leaning towards DirecTV. All because of the actions of Dish (pertaining to HD and their PVR) over the last couple of months.


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## johnsbin

I am currently in Research Mode. My 721 has been very reliable (I am using DishPro with new cables, proper grounding and a UPS with filtering) and I have been with Dish since the minute they added Washington DC Locals.

I like the improved interface and solid performance of the Tivo part of going to D* but I have read that the PQ is not as good with D*. I also like being able to change the hard disk on the Tivo.

I am on the fence but I guess it may come down to what I can fetch for my 721 and DishPro lbnf. Otherwise my financial risk consultant (wife) is gonna stamp denied on the application.

It's a decision I was hoping I wouldn't have to make but I have already gone through it with other now defunct technologies so why should E* be any different.


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## johnsbin

Actually, I'm also thinking about going to the "BUD" and trying out some c-band TV.


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## Jacob S

C-Band is pretty high if you go the way of VideoCypher aint it? Do they even make a PVR for VideoCypher? I imagine its pretty high along with HD receivers.


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## kstevens

Their announcement has nothing to do withe the 921, it was 510 specific, so we have no idea at this point what will happen with the 921. But if they do charge 12 per month on the 921 they better offer an extremely good deal on the superdish 921 package, otherwise I well may switch.


Ken


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## Jacob S

$12 per month for what? It was already said that ALL NEW DVR's coming out WILL have a DVR fee of $4.99-$9.99 per month.


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## spanishannouncetable

kstevens said:


> Their announcement has nothing to do withe the 921, it was 510 specific, so we have no idea at this point what will happen with the 921. But if they do charge 12 per month on the 921 they better offer an extremely good deal on the superdish 921 package, otherwise I well may switch.
> 
> Ken


Scott has already posted his communications with Dish Network brass. The new fees begin with the 510 model and apply to every new DVR model # afterward.

501, 508 and 721 are exempt, the DP has its own fee structure outside the other models and is unchanged.


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## kstevens

Sorry, didn't see that post. But my statement still stands, it depends on what dish charges for the 921/superdish package. If they don't give us a hell of a deal, I'll be looking at directv shortly.


Ken


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## Jacob S

I do wonder about the price of that receiver considering how they are going to charge for the DVR service. I wonder how long they have planned on doing this and if they planned on a DVR fee when they were first developing the 921 receiver. I would think that Dish could give some better hardware deals because of the charge that may apply. 

Perhaps Dish will give a hardware discount if you sign a 1 or 2 year contract in which I have seen some type of ad someone displayed from echostar.retailer.com or maybe even a deal for free DVR service for a period of time such as 12 months or 24 months to get the consumers hooked on the DVR service then charge afterwards. 

They discounted the Dishplayers only charging $149 or $199 because they were charging for the PTV service. It was the same price or just a little above the price of the receiver that came with the promotion the customer got in which they received a free system.


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## kstevens

Jacob S said:


> I do wonder about the price of that receiver considering how they are going to charge for the DVR service. I wonder how long they have planned on doing this and if they planned on a DVR fee when they were first developing the 921 receiver. I would think that Dish could give some better hardware deals because of the charge that may apply.
> 
> Perhaps Dish will give a hardware discount if you sign a 1 or 2 year contract in which I have seen some type of ad someone displayed from echostar.retailer.com or maybe even a deal for free DVR service for a period of time such as 12 months or 24 months to get the consumers hooked on the DVR service then charge afterwards.
> 
> They discounted the Dishplayers only charging $149 or $199 because they were charging for the PTV service. It was the same price or just a little above the price of the receiver that came with the promotion the customer got in which they received a free system.


I for one will not be upgrading my service to get a reduced rate. I don't watch any of the channels in the higher level packages so it would be a waste of my money to upgrade.

Ken


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## Nick

I have only two things to say:

A. If any of you think this B&M session is going to have any effect on EchoStar's decision to charge PVR fees, you are sadly mistaken. The illuminati are few; the masses are legion. What is 80 or less here compared with over 8 million? Do the math.

B. Adios! :hi:


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## Jacob S

I personally think all of this talk will not as a whole influence their decision and that is not why I am posting. I do think Dish is trying out the DVR fee just to see if they can get the money and if they see that it is not working for them then I see the possibility of them dropping the fee. They are trying to see what they can get away with charging.


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## Bob Haller

I think it might. The outrage shown here is a example o how many long term subs will be feeling.

Its in Es best interest to not piss off their best long term subs. They might not of forseen the outrage and bashing they are receiving over there bug ridden boxes they now want to charge for monthly.

I believe a accomodation will be achieved, because they know this we will trash them on the internet forever. Word of mouth can help but hurt too.

They extended the DP free PVR service time after a smaller example of whats happening here.


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## Nick

_"...we will trash them on the internet forever..."_

Bob, you are a tiger. You'll have Charlie & Co. shaking their snakeskin boots as they drive home in their Mercs and Jags tonight. 

You go, boy!


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## johnsbin

Jacob S said:


> C-Band is pretty high if you go the way of VideoCypher aint it? Do they even make a PVR for VideoCypher? I imagine its pretty high along with HD receivers.


It's not as bad as you might think. Of course there aren't the equipment deals like E* or D* but you have full control over what you watch or don't watch and the annual subscription fee for most channels is dirt cheap.

You will probably spend about $1500.00 for a complete system but then you are set and don't have to worry about superdish or triple lbnf or other technology changes that mini-dish folks have to go through every three years.

That sounds like a lot but people are ready to shell out $1,000 for a 921 that receives an encoded and recompressed signal FROM c-band!

My taxcut check is going in the "rainy-day" account and I'm doing my homework. C / KU band looks better every day. There's no HOA for my neighborhood and I have a big backyard with no trees to worry about.


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## Bob Haller

Nick word of mouth is the best adveryising their is. But it goes both ways.

There was a study on this. A happy customer tells 5 other people

A unhappy customer tells 30


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## Jacob S

I had said as a whole, in which I meant all of this will not completely sway them to not do as they planned. They are not going to allow us to make all their decisions for them. I am sure they will listen to us and maybe they will come up with a compromise or special offers but I do not think we are going to completely change their minds on some of their decisions.


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## jayn_j

I voted undecided. Last year, the lack of fees was the deciding factor for buying a 508 and staying with DISH. I can't imagine the grandfathered 508 is going to last all that long. 

I've been with Dish since 96, but I also have a few useless receivers; 
* 7 year old 2000 that can't take a card anymore; 
* 4000 I retired because guide became useless and was getting hit with anti-piracy junk that made it unavailable for hours at a time; 
* 2 year old 4900 that has the open tv feature which allows me to see the guide along with a window that shows "waiting for download". That one also has the wonderful 2 day guide which gives me program info for the next 1/2 hour and 2 days worth of "NO INFO".

How long is that grandfathered 508 going to work? Where does the loyalty factor get me? When it again becomes so painful I need to upgrade (probably lat this year for the 4900), I'm going to look purely on the numbers.


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## Larry

Having been with E* for so many years, it would be hard to jump ship. That being said, it really all comes down to the HDTV and PVR functions. The 921 (if it ever ships) will have two tuner recording and off air recording (1 or 2 off air channels at once, i don't know). If the Tivo product can beat the features and not kill quality with too much compression, maybe I'd change. It would be nice to get the NFL package, but I'd miss the superstations. Decisions, decisions, decisions.


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## DVDDAD

Still undecided, but it looks like a switch is looking more & more like a reality. No name based recording, no Tivo, no NFL package can still win me over if they become the true "hands-down" leader in HDTV. But offering to sell me a dish branded HDTV set won't make them the leader in my mind, it's HDTV content that will matter. Right now D* has the edge especially with the NFL HD content, but what does Charlie have up his sleeve?


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## Peluso

Argo said:


> The 921 (if it ever ships) will have two tuner recording and off air recording (1 or 2 off air channels at once, i don't know). If the Tivo product can beat the features and not kill quality with too much compression, maybe I'd change. .


To me the big question is availability. Both 921 and DirecTivo HD will record HD and at passable levels. My big question is who comes out first. They are the ones who get MY money.

One thing that is driving me crazy is that their is NO news on HDTV DirecTivo. I know development is moving along and they aren't all that far from Dish... but what is going on, and when will they release the product??


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## Jacob S

Since someone had posted that he has a brochure that indicates that the 522, 921, etc. would not be charged a fee when he got the brochure from the last CES show then that would indicate that they planned this not long ago.


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## Nick

_"...their (there) is NO news on HDTV DirecTivo...when will they release the product??"_

Probably when it is ready for distribution.


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## Jacob S

Isn't the DirecTivo HD DVR supposed to be a bit cheaper than the 921 coming out?


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## Chris Freeland

Jacob S said:


> Isn't the DirecTivo HD DVR supposed to be a bit cheaper than the 921 coming out?


Their is no way any of us could possibly no this until both of these receivers are on the market and what promotions are available.


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## elbyj

I am really confused by what is going, especially since I don't see the reason why D* needs to charge for the DVR. While I am grandfathered (currently) with my 501, I am concerned that sooner or later it will come down to ours. 

Other than the recording capability, what is so special about the DVR that would require D* to charge the monthly rate? Is there something about this great new box we bought last year that I don't know of? 

Can one of the technical DVR gurus provide me a little guidance on the reason so I can also say it is stupid!!! It sure can't be based on the idea that we can record movies, since people have been recording movies on VHS, and before that Beta. We never had to pay charges to taping the movies.\\

A little help would be appreciated.

Thanks --


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## dishrich

elbyj - one little tip - around here & on the other board:
D*=DirecTV
E*=Dish Network (Echostar)

I assume you REALLY meant Dish in your post, right???    

As far as your question, I have NO fricken idea why E* has the nerve to charge (per BOX, no less) for EXACTLY the same software that runs all the previous units, warts & all... :eek2: :eek2:


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## Jacob S

Doesn't DirecTivo give you a lite version for free in which has basically the same functionality as the current software on the Dish PVR's? If that is the case then there is a huge difference in hardware cost for the same service and I would not know why Dish would think they could get away with charging for something that would be free on the DirecTivo receivers when their hardware is so much more expensive and was supposed to make up for not charging for the fee in the first place.


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## rudolpht

Switch to pay a higher fee?


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## rudolpht

Jacob S said:


> Isn't the DirecTivo HD DVR supposed to be a bit cheaper than the 921 coming out?


Which manufacturer is that? Given my Tosh 3000 & Sat 520 both were 2/3rds the price of the 921 (if it ever ships), I wouldn't assume the DirecTivo HD PVR (if it ever ships) would be much more of a bragain.


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## Jacob S

I thought I had read some posts where the new HD DirecTivo was going to be $599 and was comparing that to the $999 price that the 921 may be.


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## elbyj

dishrich said:


> elbyj - one little tip - around here & on the other board:
> D*=DirecTV
> E*=Dish Network (Echostar)
> 
> I assume you REALLY meant Dish in your post, right???
> 
> As far as your question, I have NO fricken idea why E* has the nerve to charge (per BOX, no less) for EXACTLY the same software that runs all the previous units, warts & all... :eek2: :eek2:


You are so very correct -- I did mean to type E* vice D*. My finger must have slipped. I was once a D*, but for the past three years an E*.


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## Guest

Jacob S said:


> I thought I had read some posts where the new HD DirecTivo was going to be $599 and was comparing that to the $999 price that the 921 may be.


That is the rumor. Nothing official yet.


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## kstevens

Now, if I were to buy a 721 now, would I have to pay the dvr fee? Or is this only for those already owning the system?


Ken


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## cicijay

I had every intention of buying the 921 as soon as it was available. If there will be a fee to have nothing but hard drive recording then I will wait for the Tivo HD Recording system and switch. If the 921 offered more functionality than just being a hard drive recorder I would consider going with the 921.

I have invested alot of money into Dish but if I go with the 921, I will be replacing everything except the cable from the dish to the receiver. Due to that it is time to take a step back and do a comparison going forward. The way I see it I can buy everything fom E*Star or take advantage of the new customer offers from Direc and get a reciever that Dish is trying to copy.


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## moedog

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing people complain about Dish. I was on Direct for years until I switched to Dish in March. That was after I found out that Direct would not offer the Roanoke locals in my county (even though I am in that DMA). Never could get an explanation as to why, but I assume the spot beam for Roanoke LIL does not reach this area (very poor on the part of Direct, I'd say). Also, I wanted Superstations and did not feel like paying Ruppert $65 each month. Immediately, I was impressed with improved PQ and the much wider selection of public interest channels. I also got 2 Movie Channels and an extra Starz channel at no extra charge. The only downside was having to get the second dish for local WB and UPN when Dish put on our locals in May, but elsewhere in this market, every Direct subscriber who subscribes to LIL will have to change out their dish and recievers eventually, so I guess thats a wash. I'm very impressed with every aspect of Dish's service. I don't have PVR service, but you can bet that in the end Dish will not add any fees that are not competitive with Direct. I think Dish gets a lot of flac because they try to be more open with their subscribers than Direct, which is a good thing in my opinion. Maybe some people should stop belly-aching.


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## motjes2

I have expressed my disastifaction with E* before in another thread so I am not going to repeat them again. As for the DVR fee, it will not affect me since I subscribe to the "Everything Pack". However, I do not know if I will stay with E*. E* has so many plans and yet has not delivered on any. E* subscribers were told that HDnet will be coming in the summer. Now, it looks like we need superdish to get it. We have no Espn-HD, no MLB out market package, and most of all no 921.

It makes you wonder why to remain with E*. I will probably end up leaving soon since E* keeps making "empty" statements without delivering. If Tivo comes out with their HD version of the 921, I will re-think everything and probably switch. Let me ask: Why all this talk about E* having enough space to add more HD and yet they can not even give us a free preview weekend of HDnet. Yet D* who has no space, finds a way of delivering the programming to their customers. I really do not care what goes on, I just want my HD and nothing else but E* does not realize that. They need to give their customers programing that is already available to keep us happy. E* needs a few lessons in customer satisfaction. 

I will also be mad if I did not subscribe to the "everything pack"


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## Jacob S

Its a combination of the price and principal of it. Even if you have AEP it still makes you think. You feel as if you are being pressured to stay there. Giving the customers something extra for that $4.99 fee that makes it worthwhile would change a lot of opinions on here along with a choice for an affordable lifetime subscription in which is not just 2 or 3 years, but truely the life of the receiver.


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## marko

Wow, go on vacation for a week, and come back and find this out. 

I'm staying with dish. My 501 will suite me fine for quite a while. HDTV is still at least a year off, probably more.

If my 501 goes...... not sure what I will do then. That will be a tough call. Unfortunately, I now have to have a PVR/DVR system. Can't live without it.


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## Guest

moedog said:


> Frankly, I'm tired of hearing people complain about Dish. Maybe some people should stop belly-aching.


Or perhaps you could stop reading the the responses if you don't like having your beloved Dish criticized.


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## moedog

BooHoo said:


> Or perhaps you could stop reading the the responses if you don't like having your beloved Dish criticized.


No, I'll keep reading the responses. I like to hear all sides of an issue. Dish is not "beloved" to me. There seems to be a healthy competition going on between E* and D* :nono2: Subscribers of both services will eventually be the winners. Just be patient.


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## Jacob S

I like to have two points of views to everything. It just seems like the second point of view is strong right now along with many others. I can see where Dish wants to make a profit on DVR as well but there is only so much money you can make off of your customers, there is a limit at which people will pay. If Dish DOES want to make a profit on DVR then they need to make it worthwhile then people will not mind paying for it in many cases. Whats the difference in making people pay the same for Dish DVR than DirecTv DVR with their software being better than paying the same for Windows 95 as you do for Windows XP?


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## Peluso

Nick said:


> _"...their (there) is NO news on HDTV DirecTivo...when will they release the product??"_
> 
> Probably when it is ready for distribution.


Your probably right, but it still drives me nuts. I don't mind hearing about delays, i just want information updated as often as is conceivable.

Your also right about 'there' maybe DBStalk can charge me a monthly fee for the added feature of grammar check. god knows i need it.


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## Guest

I would never switch. Direct TV Sucks period.


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## mdrobnak

I voted undecided:

It comes down to this...Which ever is the first company that has a receiver with firewire output to D-VHS and is not an insane price ($1000 is WAAAY too much -- I can build a really fast computer for that price, why on earth would I spend that much on a stupid box that has mostly off-the-shelf components, maybe a couple custom ones, but not worth that much of a premium), will get my money for the long run.

Note, this could be:

A)Dish (current provider)
B)DirecTV
C)Rainbow Satellite
D)Cablevision Cable TV (It'll be a cold day in hell before this happens I think...)

Now, I *like* my PVR err DVR err whatever features of my 501..but, it's buggy as hell, and actually has been sitting disconnected for the last 2 months. PVRs are cool, but I'm not paying $10 a month for garbage.

-Matt


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## Jacob S

E)pc Pvr
F)bud


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## mdrobnak

Jacob --
those are valid, but I was speaking for myself...

The problems are:

E)PC Recording / PVR - While I have my 5000 + modulator, this works...hell, I'm burning Minority Report to DVD-R right now  But, after that, only Standard Def stuff on the PC...Unacceptable for me.

F)BUD -- I'd LOVE to be able to do this..but trees getting in the way, and the rest of my family not taking too well to the 10' dish


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## Jacob S

Right, E and F does not make as much sense in some cases to do as some do not have computers or BUD's and if they dont then it would be a lot more expensive to get started using those.


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## Bob Haller

If our discussions are any indication E is creating a problem. When existing subs find out there is a fee that they didnt pay on their existing equiptement they will be more inclined to shop around. E will loose some of those shoppers. The DP fee nearly drove me to D, of course I hatre recurring monthly fees....

FEE PER BOX?? Who here feels this was a quick decision without thought to long term issues? I seriously doubt per box will survive very long, I suspect its already dead....


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## Jacob S

I wonder just how different that is from the per receiver additional outlet fee is. Perhaps the difference is in what they call the money to support their software and hardware costs would deal with getting so much per month per DVR receiver.


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## toddjb

pjmrt said:


> I voted "No" - but really its "not at this time". My current receivers are grandfathered in w/ no fee - at least until that policy changes too. (Hey Dish - its a shame I can't be certain about your assurance that the 501/508/721 will not have fees)


Can someone point me to this info? This is the 2nd I heard of us being grandfathered if we already own the receivers. Just wanted to confirm this.

For me, I hate monthly fees for hardware I've paid for and par functionality. So...while I planned on staying with Dish for the 921 and HD...I will now DEFINITELY compare packages and HD recorders with DirectTV before I buy another Dish receiver. For that matter, if cable has a good HD option at that time, I'd look at that as well.

-todd


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## dmodemd

My strategy WAS to get the 921 and drop my 501 and 6000. This would save me on the add'l receiver charge as well as my local charge as I would now pull locals OTA. I do locals OTA now, but am willing to pay for locals to PVR them! (hmm so I am paying the fee now heh).

But now, this isn't as attractive as it was. I guess if I get it I can save the $11 but then have to pay $5. But I am also concerned about the reliability and cost of the 921. I am inclined to wait for the next generation or go to DirecTV if I can get a good deal.


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## brentp

I went with undecided, . . . 

Thought I had it all figured out last fall when I upgraded to HD and bought the 6000 (to replace 1 of 2 4000s that I currently have hooked up to a RF modulator for whole house distribution). Plan at that time was to get the 6000 now, and upgrade to a 921 and likely a 522 once they were both out and stabilized a bit. 

Then I get the 6000 and find out that it would not output both HD/SD at the same time. No biggy (though I basically lost 1 channel for whole house distribution), . . . I thought surely the 921 will support both outputs :-( wrong again! And now we have these DVR fees, . . . of which I would end up paying the $10/rcvr/month even though I have a number of premium services turned on.

So, . . . what to do?

1) Get a 508 now to be grandfathered, . . . hope it doesn't break down and/or Dish honors their word about it being free for life. Then wait to see what happens with HD on Dish and hope they do us right. Cost ~$280., . . . no HD recording, and no clarity on HD offering. Risky, but the least cash outlay, I think.

2) Stay the course with the original plan (921 & 522) and suck up the $20/month in DVR fees. Lets see, . . . ~$1500. upfront and an additional $240/year, . . . I don't think so!

3) Go only for a 921 DVR. Upgrade cost ~$1000 plus $120/year. Nope, this doesn't work because it was built with an older chip and can't output HD/SD at the same time. So, for my situation, if someone is in another room and wants to watch the DVR playback at the same time as the HD set, they wont get it. 

4) Go to DirecTv, . . . actually, I'm looking this over very closely.

5) Go back to cable, . . . ouch!

6) Do nothing

The biggest factor in this decision has to be based on HD. I love HD, and before I do anything I need to know who is going to be my national HD provider (all networks are OTA). And, . . . with Dish now doing the 'HD SuperDish' dance to counter DirecTv HD line-up, . . . who knows what the future will bring with Dish's HD offerings. 

So, . . . looks like I have until the end of August to decide to go with #1 to still be grandfathered in on a 508 or 721. But, . . . if I do go with DirecTv now, . . . I can see those great football games on ESPN-HD and not have to wait for Dish to 'get off the pot' so to speak. Hope things get cleared up well before then. 

Damn this stinks, . . . but I am going to do something. The point that Dish should know is that I have been a loyal customer since 1996, . . . and I wasn't even considering a switch to cable or to direct. Oh well, . . . Charlie has decided to play his hand, . . . so now I must play mine as well. We will see, . . . .

Edited to update, . . .:

I ended up going with option #1. Just ordered a 508 through Dish and an 'Exclusive Upgrade' offer for $149. with no programming commitment and confirmation of no monthly PVR fees for life (like that means anything from a CSR). So, . . . I guess I will now stick with Dish at least until I figure out what the real HD story is going to be. Still wont have HD recording capabilities, but any content can be captured and viewed later (which is really what I want a PVR for, . . . for now anyway).


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## MikeJ

No


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## Jacob S

Those that get an email stating that they are grandfathered has it in writing in which is our only proof that those will remain grandfathered.


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## Bob Haller

I think theres a general lack of trust now on whatever E states.


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## John Hodgson

That's always been the case with me Bob.


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## Scott Greczkowski

I have been quiet on this, but I must say changes are good that I won't switch as I am an Americas Everything Pack subscriber so these fees have no effect on me.

However if Dish prices their HD package too high then I would switch.


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## Mike D-CO5

Ditto Scott.


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## Danbo

I voted undecided originally because I hadn't thought this through. I've waited and read every post here about this whole fee issue, from those that won't have one to those who will.

Personally, I won't have a fee because of my subscription. But that doesn't mean I could care less. Honestly, I think it's a joke. Placing a fee on the DVR that doesn't compare to a Tivo unit in functionality is pretty ridiculous. I'm a person who went from a VCR to the 721, so if people want to call it a glorified VCR, so be it. Yet I know what you can do with the Tivo now, especially with the Series 2 as I've had a chance to read it.

If Dish had a unit that performed the same functions (or close to it) as a Tivo unit, I probably wouldn't worry about the fee, or care as much. With the bad Technical Support, occasional bugs on the 721, lack of any real updates to the 721 software (sorry, keep hearing they're coming, but they don't), it just strikes me the wrong way with what they plan on doing.

Although I've had troubles with my 721 (only a couple are back with the replacement unit), I was looking forward to the 921. I saw people throwing their money in preparation for it, reserving a unit. I wonder how many still plan on doing that, or if they have a second thought after this. Frankly, if DirecTV has a HDTV PVR/DVR dual tuner unit before Dish, I'll make the jump. If not, I'll have to give it some serious thought about staying once the 921 comes out. And if it still sells for the $999 speculated previously, with no reduced amount due to the new DVR fee, it will make it even harder to decide.

I understand a company wanting to make money. I understand businesses competing against each other, or trying to do what the other guy does. But for what Dish gives people now, regardless of the graduated scale, it isn't right. For a fee, I expect near perfect software. For a fee I expect updates and new enhancements delivered on a scheduled basis, being told what will be provided and when. For a fee I expect the features to be as good, if not better then the competition. Otherwise, I expect to be able to NOT have updates given and be exempt from the fee.


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## HTguy

Jacob S said:


> Those that get an email stating that they are grandfathered has it in writing in which is our only proof that those will remain grandfathered.


I have it in writing, I can get again any time, and I have the chat on tape. Don't worry.
:feelbette


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## rudolpht

I don't understand the impact re: 921. I switch every couple years between having most programming and most receivers on best content provider at the time. I was planning to switch back to Dish when the 921 comes out. As I will be getting "everything" the fee is a non-issue, isn't it?


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## Guest

If I could vote, it would be undecided. The DVR fee is only one of many issues involving me staying with dish or going to directv.

I have the AEP so I would not be hit, but it amazes me that they put their own software on the level of Tivo. I think that if they did license Tivo, then a fee would have some value.

My main deciding point will be when the new HD PVR/DVR machines come out and what the available HD content is at that time. Before I spend $500-$1000, I want to make sure I’m making the best choice before blowing the wad. That is one reason why I want to wait and see if the 921 is a quality design or if it is bug plagued. The long development time sort of trends it towards the later. The current 6000 is substandard when compared to other designs (directv) especially when it comes to OTA channels. The integrated program guide with real information for OTA is a big plus for directv. On the other hand if Tivo produces a quality product for an HD and directv has the content that I want, I’m gone. 

Paying that much for equipment will tie me to whomever for a year or two. It puzzles me why dish has not used this instead of thrashing for a plan like they have.


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## buist

I used to be a Directv subscriber for years (with a Directivo). I moved a year ago and got Dish (they had local channels) with both a 721 and a 508 PVR. There are things that I like about Dish's PVR's - they seem better at mass deleting programs as well as faster proc's. 

However, the Directivo's have not been stagnant. Any way I look at it, the Directivo's are a Mercedes Benz compared to Dish's Chevy. The named based recording is superior to the time based recording that Dish uses. The home media option is another feature that Dish just can't compete on. I understand that Dish is just moving the upfront costs to a subscription fee.. But this just doesn't work when the PVR's keep on falling further and further behind in features. I had hoped that Dish would overcome the name based recording.. They just don't seem interested in this. I do like the superstation's on Dish.. However, Directv just has too many advantages (and the list grows). It almost seems like Dish thinks they are comparing Apples to Apples.. However, they are really not at the same level as the Directivo's. If they charged substantially less than Directv, there would be less incentive to switch. Now I see no reason not to switch. The new generation Directivo's seem way beyond what Dish is offering (and will offer for years to come)..

MHO..

Tim


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## Jacob S

I think Dish would have a bit of interested in this name recording feature seeing how many do want it but may not be able to do it.


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## acruther

I don't really agree that we should pay a fee for a PVR (or DVR). I don't mind paying for the hardware, that seems fair to me. However, there is no basis for which to charge a fee for using a piece of equipment you paid for. The only thing they (E* or D* for that matter) do is maintain the program guide - which they have to do anyway. Tivo probably adds a bit by rating programs so that they will be suggested to you. Still, how much is that worth? Hardly anything.

With millions of subscribers, all paying ~ $5-12 per month, it's a great money maker. However, we are not getting anything for that fee - just information. Information is cheap - really cheap. So basically this is one big consumer rip-off. I don't need yet another corporation sucking me try every month...

Luckily for us, convergence is going to put extreme pressure on Tivo and E* to drop the fees. Windows Media Edition provides a PVR with near-limitless storage space. At this point it's crude, but eventually you will be able to have your PC perform these tasks better and with more flexibility than these systems. The only thing lacking right now is an HD decoder for the PC. If I had that, I wouldn't be looking at the PVR921.

As it is, I won't buy the 921 as long as there are fees. I will look into switching to DirectTV when they come out with a HD DVR. However, my long term goal is to move it to my PC.


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## Curtis0620

So when a newer software version comes out for your computer, do you expect to get it for free?

That's one of the things you are paying for with a DVR fee, the maintenance and updates to the software.


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## Jacob S

Then they had better do a heck of a job and have no bugs in their software or one should get their money back if recordings are lost and so forth. I would expect them to see a LOT of people expecting refunds for their DVR fee or not to be charged until the problem is fixed. At least this may put pressure on Dish to get their products fixed right and quicker if they are losing revenue over it.


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## greylar

It boils down to this: I was going to buy the 921 but since there is going to be a fee anyway I would do better to buy the Tivo HD PVR when it comes out.


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## Lee L

Curtis0620 said:


> So when a newer software version comes out for your computer, do you expect to get it for free?
> 
> That's one of the things you are paying for with a DVR fee, the maintenance and updates to the software.


Well, if the company that makes the SW has given the last couple versions away for free and has been bragging about the fact that they have this free software and using it in advertisements as an advantage, talked about this new version they are bringing out for a couple of years, then all the sudden they bring it out and charge a fee, I would certainly be surprised and a little upset about it. Sure they are free to do whatever and maybe they have to do it to stay in business but it does not mean we have to like it and be completely unsurprised when they do a complete about face.

I am not saying I *won't* buy a 921 because of the fee (right now, it looks as if I would only be paying the $4.99 anyway and it might be just as well for me to go to AEP when they do this) , but it sure is going to factor into my decision. I am pretty much going to consider the 3 year cost of this thing and if the DirecTivo HD comes out and is $600-$700 or even close to the same cost as the 921 and it has the same $4.99 fee for software that provides much more funtionality, it is going to be really difficult for E* to keep me as a customer. The fact that they had no fee balanced out the fact that their software had fewer features and was more buggy than the TiVo software, if they charge, they lose that balance and it is now a negative for them IMO.


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## Allen Noland

For those that are thinking of switching to D* for the HD Tivo, I found out today talking to a wholesaler that the HD version they were going to carry would hold a whopping 8 hours of HD programming.


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## Mark Holtz

What size hard drive are they using, and will it be expandable beyond the 137GB barrier?

I was in Fry's today, and saw a 300GB hard drive for $300.


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## harsh

A_Noland said:


> For those that are thinking of switching to D* for the HD Tivo, I found out today talking to a wholesaler that the HD version they were going to carry would hold a whopping 8 hours of HD programming.


I'm guessing that's probably in the realm of a 60GB hard drive. I can't imagine why anyone would offer less than a pair of 120GB hard drives ($150 in quantity for the pair?). DVHS looks better all the time, no?

*** my warped sense of reality follows ***

The rule of thumb that I use is that you get about 1 hour of HD content for every five hours of SD content. I've also heard tales of a 1:6 ratio.

I'm also of a mind that these units are going to have a tough time (at least without RAID striping) trying to record and/or play more than one program at at a time considering bit rates and filesystem overhead.

*** end of warped reality??? ***


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## Unthinkable

Z'Loth said:


> What size hard drive are they using, and will it be expandable beyond the 137GB barrier?
> 
> I was in Fry's today, and saw a 300GB hard drive for $300.


The Zenith HDR230 available now has an 80 gigabyte hard drive good for 8 hours of HD recording time.


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## donm

I have a 508 and 501. I planned on buying a 921 but not now. I will be switching to DirecTV. I switched from DTV to Dish about 4 year's ago and was happy until they announce the DVR fees. Even if they drop the fees I can't trust Dish and will be looking for a good deal to switch back to DTV.


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## harsh

donm said:


> I have a 508 and 501. I planned on buying a 921 but not now. I will be switching to DirecTV. I switched from DTV to Dish about 4 year's ago and was happy until they announce the DVR fees. Even if they drop the fees I can't trust Dish and will be looking for a good deal to switch back to DTV.


Why change providers before you get a DVR that the fee applies to? If you're doing it in protest, fine, but if you're going to jump ship for a 1/3 capacity single DVR that has a fee, what's the point?

Will you be looking to jump back when DirecTV raises their DVR fee? What if Dish significantly improves their DVR software to include "name based" recording? It could happen.


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## Jacob S

Having only 8 hours of HD on a DVR starting out reminds me of when standard definition got only 5 hours then later 10 hours starting out (dishplayers 7100, 7200). The storage increased dramatically later but small starting out.


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## Jack Donavin

Umm i have just been listening to this about the DVR/pvr postings, umm Dish has remained a company who out of courtesy not to charge for pvr functions, and people are thinking about going to directv tivo because they are now charging, umm well for 1, directv tivo charges, and has always charged for their service wich they could have remained free but did not, and now that dish wants to modernize and charge for a service that you pay for with both directv and replay, i dont think this is a real bad thing, it was nice of them not to charge all this time...


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## Ebeam

Didn't this website start with you?
I'm trying o understand the point here aside from the "up front" questionaire...I have been with Direct TV since they started out. I paid well over $500 for the premium Sony reciever and works, and I still have it. It is 100% useless at this point because I have chosen to drop-kick Direct TV. Enough is enough. I'm looking for another solution and Dish is the current selection...perhaps it's a mistake. On the other hand, the PVR/DVR issue is really not as much a concern as the service simply is...CORRECT? Doesn't anybody care about what the service provides? The hard disk recorders are a completely separate issue! Dish doesn't charge for a PVR!!! They charge a blanket fee ($5.00) for any additional tuner/reciever/s installed in your system...If they know about it. So, if you want to record, and you dont want to pay you can do so on a PVR with one tuner This still allows live recording while viewing prerecorded programming. If you really need every bell and whistle then yes you will pay for the DUAL tuner models. Ditto that for all other service providers but at more $$$cost to you...Like TiVo!
So what is the real gripe! Why is everybody wanting to leave? Are the PVRs really poor quality??
Just one more comment...I see alot of Rumor Central concerning the price of the Dish PVRs...There is a lease program and there is a "buy" program. Furthermore, authorized retailers can give you a better deal than Dish provides directly. See AllSat for instance, 508 +3 months free for $89. Combo 508/508 is $299 +3 months free.
You can lease from Dish for $49 (508) +$5 service fee on the unit each month +subscription....As you can see, lease is good if you want to exchange sooner than later and it covers all of your breakage!
I'm buying a single 508 system for $89 and one year of basic programming will cost us $225.
I'd like to hear a counter argument from all of you "other" subscribers...
Bill


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## Jacob S

It was not out of courtousy to not charge pvr fees, it was out of doing competition.


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## marko

Ebeam said:


> Are the PVRs really poor quality??
> Just one more comment...I see alot of Rumor Central concerning the price of the Dish PVRs...There is a lease program and there is a "buy" program. Furthermore, authorized retailers can give you a better deal than Dish provides directly. See AllSat for instance, 508 +3 months free for $89. Combo 508/508 is $299 +3 months free.
> You can lease from Dish for $49 (508) +$5 service fee on the unit each month +subscription....As you can see, lease is good if you want to exchange sooner than later and it covers all of your breakage!
> I'm buying a single 508 system for $89 and one year of basic programming will cost us $225.
> I'd like to hear a counter argument from all of you "other" subscribers...
> Bill


That is a good deal for the 508 system. Reminds me when I first got dish and got my 4900 system free ( or very close to it), and $200 back for doing a self install. Heck, that 508 deal sounds better, especially since I had to end up paying for a real install since a troublesome tree got in the way,  and I wasn't up for installing it on my house.


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## Bob Haller

TIVO price was based on the guide cost and D was wise enough to lower the price because they noticed PVR subs are sticky.

E then decides after attracting subs who dont like fees to start them, and even statred no fees on exsting boxes AT THIS TIME

That sure didnt reassure me. 

YEP they attracted subs who dont like fees and then gave them a kick to the groin.

Anyone notice how unhappy I am. We are shopping for D TIVOS.


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## rtt2

Tivo also need the fee for modem lines to be operated. Dish downloads the software and updates directly from the satellite so there is practically no costs to deliver the data. Tivo has to maintain modems pay for phone numbers etc etc and the operational costs are much higher.


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## Bob Haller

Well we are DEFINETELY switching to D, its now a matter of timing. Specifically I really want D TIVOs that are UHF controlled. Jen objects to the hard drive noise, which I being older cant really hear. So I relocated the receivers too the basement. 

To put the D tivos there the ideal solution are UHF remotes. Before the weather gets bad I will put up my D Dishes. Because of trees I will likely need 2. Wire it all up to my receiver home space and ready to go.

That way if E decides to start charging for EXISTING PVRs I can leave at a moments notice. 

I feel bad about this E did so much for the industry, now they are trying to cash in on a bug ridden second rate product for extra profits.

Wonder if Charlie knows how bad his PVRs really are?

The high cost of supporting them is largely because of their poor design & software..


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## Mark Holtz

They say hindsight is 20/20, and the grass is greener on the other side.

In August, 2001, it appeared that Dish had the better deal. I locked in the AT-150 package at a rate until May, 2003, they were only offerring UPN/WB on Superstations (which DirecTV doesn't offer), and the PVR was fee free. At that time, the Action channel was airing a lot more anime. And, for the most part, the PVR was what I wanted. I knew the shortcomings. I also knew that I wanted no part of Comcast/AT&T Broadband/Comcast. 

At that same time, the DirecTivos rates for $9.95 per month with a lifetime subscription cost. I do not know what the packages were at that time. Now, DirecTV has restructured their rates, and reduced the DVR fee.


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