# Keeping New Products "Secret" vs. Open Dialog



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

What Technology Company Made This Statement?

_ "Having watched the newsgroups, bulletin boards, and forums, we're keenly aware of the intense interest that each new (product) generates, and we're eager to show off our work. In fact, one of our great frustrations is not being able to talk about our latest project earlier in development. But because features and specifications change as we work, and to avoid confusion, we wait until we're sure that all the key elements are in place before we publicly discuss a new product."_

I've been intrigued with how some companies play their product-in-development cards very close to the vest, while other companies seek an open dialog with customers and input even while their new products are in development or on the drawing board.

These divergent product-in-development philosophies are amply demonstrated by looking at how EchoStar and Directv approach the subject.

EchoStar actively communicates with its subscriber and dealer base through live "chats", "unofficial" participation in forums such as this, and in the exchange of direct communications with customers by email and telephone, even at the senior management level. Discussions of yet-to-be released new products and programming are the stuff of which these forums are made. With this down-home folksy approach, DishNetwork has enjoyed a higher rate of growth and seemingly greater loyalty among its 9 million subscribers than its chief DBS competitor.

In contrast, Directv is virtually stoic in the public arena, seemingly above and oblivious to their customers' opinions, yet proceeding to develop new products and programming that apparently satisfies the vast majority of their 11 million subscribers. Yet, Directv appears to make little or no effort to garner direct input from those whom they serve.

These two disparate strategies seem to work for each of these companies, so who's to say which one is better than the other. To many, I'm sure, Directv is like cable from the sky, while DishNetwork always seems to be a work in progress.

The above quote was taken from the Microsoft Flight Simulator website.


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## Chris Freeland (Mar 24, 2002)

Nick said:


> These two disparate strategies seem to work for each of these companies, so who's to say which one is better than the other. To many, I'm sure, Directv is like cable from the sky, while DishNetwork always seems to be a work in progress.
> 
> The above quote was taken from the Microsoft Flight Simulator website.


Even though D* makes an excellent product, especially the D*Tivo, it is the "work in progress" aspect is what has attracted me to E* and why I continue to be loyal, rather then switch to D*, that, the Supers and E* and not D* has my locals 
 .


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

Nick said:


> These two disparate strategies seem to work for each of these companies, so who's to say which one is better than the other. To many, I'm sure, Directv is like cable from the sky, while DishNetwork always seems to be a work in progress.
> 
> 
> > Nick,
> ...


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

_"__...I love reading your posts - especially in the Potpourri forum..."_

That is a very nice thing to say. Thanks Karl. 

_"__...and I almost always agree with you."_

You and Bogy...try as I may to be unpredictably and arbitrarily controversial... 
___________

DishNetwork has enjoyed...seemingly greater loyalty among its...subscribers

_"I also don't know why you think Directv has less customer loyalty than Echostar. Do you have facts to back that up?"_

I think it's the "seemingly" part -- as in "it seems to me..." -- that lets me off the hook here., Karl.

No, I don't have the facts to back it up. It just _seems_ to me...


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

Nick,

You never cease to make me chuckle - and I mean that as a compliment!  

Both companies have such different ways of doing business, and both obviously know much more than you or I, or we'd be as friggin' rich as they are! I have tried many times to figure a way that I could be Charlie's illegitemate son and entitled to a life of luxury, but to no avail.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

_"I have tried...to figure a way that I could be Charlie's illegitemate son"_

:lol:

You may well be, Who among us really knows those things _fer shure_? After all, we were _so_ young when we were born. I guess I would have be Charlie's illegitimate 'father'. That should be good enough to get me _free_ satellite!


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

I think Dish shoots themselves in the foot a little when they leak information and have to retract it or if the product in question misses a due date.

*Post Edited by Mark Lamutt - comments about Scott and SatelliteGuys removed.*


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## rcbridge (Oct 31, 2002)

As one who is part of the engineering world for a company that makes commercial products, I know first hand, the can do approach of the marketing department before a product is ready for prime time, it can be frustrating at times but if it is ready in a timely fashion the end result is good.
Echostar follows this approach which can backfire at times, but as a consumer it is good to know what is coming down the pike.
As far as having forums and feedback from the consumer I think that is a great idea. 
Direct Tv on the other hand totally relies on its vendors to create and deliver
the products, so it wouldn't make sense for them to approach things like Echostar.
Both approaches seem to work.
I say to keep it up and we as consumers can all win.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I don't think there can be a question about Dish bringing on criticism by being more open and talking about upcoming products. When Direct has a product ready they announce it or you see advertisements for it and that is that. It is done and ready for purchase. For all the world the Direct way should be better, yet, so many feel more a part of Dish and have both good and bad feelings at the same time about it, that Dish actually seems to have more of the buzz - and certainly more posts about it. Maybe it's still the underdog thing, certainly Charlie has set himself up as him (his company) against the industry. He has at different times tried to change the broadcasting rules in a way that most of us would like to see. Hard to pinpoint why, but the observations by Nick certainly are valid.

I also must add, I'm not sure of the connection of the second part of the post by Neil here and the rant towards Scott, to the topic.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

The connection, and my opinion is this... Dish doesn't help their corporate image by leaking speculation, and when the speculation gets splashed all over the forums, it makes all parties involved look stupid. I was referring to past speculation that didn't pan out. The rest was indeed a rant, but I will stand behind what I said.. take it for what it is worth.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

*Scott's response to Neil's now deleted rant deleted by Mark Lamutt as it is off topic in this thread.*


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

Since this has gone from a constructive discussion to a personal attack thread, I'm closing it...


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

*Admin Note:

I have cleaned up this thread, and am going to reopen it, as I think it is a very valid discussion to be having. Please try to keep the discussion on topic.

Scott - your post about disk allocation has been moved into its own thread in the Admin forum.*


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Thanks Mark! This is actually a very good topic. I will post more about this topic later.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

As a former D* customer I was very frustrated with their non answers when it came to new programming. I remember Mark Cuban giving hints that HDNet was coming to D* while nothing from D* themselves. Believe it or not one reason I switched to E* was because the company appeared to me more open about their plans and products. 

However, based on what's happened I wish Charlie would just keep his big mouth shut. If I didn't know a 921 was in the works I wouldn't be upset that we still can't get one that's over what, a year late or is it two. Tell us about the big Superdish plans, wife's actually happy since I can get rid of a dish, then have them fall flat on their face. Heck, there were posters over on DBSFourm that said the AMC-2 footprint wasn't going to be full CONUS months ago. If they could figure it out why couldn't the brains at E*. Again if they had kept their plans quiet until they could do actual verifications (like check it out before signing the lease) they customers wouldn't have been upset when the plan blew up in their face. 

On Mondays char, Charlie needs to come completly clean on what their plans on for future HD programming and Superdish to get some confidence back since hopefully they've actually thought this through now and need to set realistic expectations for their customers. Once that's done limit all future chats, Charlie and Tech, to something that's actually available, or something that will be coming out in a couple of weeks, like a new local city or channel. Just my two cents. RAD


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

I must actually agree with much of what is being said here. Many of the things that get customers upset could have been avoided if Dish Network never opened their mouths.

How many years has the 921 been shown at the CES?

Do you remember last year on a tech chat they said that the 921 and JVC TU9000 wouold be available by November (OF LAST YEAR?)

And then they always announce these great new receivers, only to have them come out with many of the advertised features missing. THey havent learned yet... look at the 811 here it is released and no Dish Home Interactive service... Look at the 522, no single mode to make the 522 act like a 721, and speaking of the 721 where the hell is OpenTV, or better yet INTERNET access?

No a lot of people (especially people named Neil) like blaming me for leaking information. And perhaps maybe I do, but I am willing to bet that if I didn't someone else would.

Just for Dish Network I have over 75 contacts made up of Echostar employees, Dish Network Retailers, Echostar Parts suppliers, and program providers.

I am given tips all the time for all the above, I don't even report on 80% of what I am told as I have no way of verifying the information I am given.

I know Dish Network was mad at me this week for announcing the 811 upgrade offer which they planned to make public on December 8th on the Charlie Chat. But in reality it was Dish Network themselves who let the news slip by posting the 811 upgrade rules to the retailer website. Within minutes of them posting this document to the retailer website my email box was being filled with the PDF file explaining the promotion.

If Dish did not post this information I would have never known about it. I did hear rumbling for awhile now that there would be a 811 upgrade offer I had no clue what this offer consited of (and if I had to guess I would have expected the 811 to be offered for $299 in this special, not $199 or $149)

Let's face it the genie is out of the bottle now, there is no putting the cork back in, and I don't think the internet public minds the information even though waiting sometimes is fustrating as hell for all of us. If the public did not like this information site like DBSTalk, SatelliteGuys and DBSForums would no be popular, and they are gaining in popularity every day.

While I can't say anything at the moment I KNOW we will be getting busier soon.

Ultiimately it is best for the Satellite Companies to work with us, we are their free advertising, we are their free tech support, and we are also some of their biggest critics.

Dish has tried to stop going through internet channels (I was invited to be a 522 beta tester and then after I accepted I never heard anything again about that) however using my resouces and a little smarts I got a 522, the same goes for the 811 and 921. I believe it is better for them to work with us then against us as we will get the information anyways.

All said and done, I blame this all on John Hodgson who started this mess. He is the guy who popped the cork open on the Genie Bottle. (And I can't thanks John enough for doing it! I never knew I could have so much fun!) 

Anyways back on topic, my tip to Dish, stop showing off equipment at consumer electronics shows years before they are ready, and do not release equipment until all advertised functions are fully working on the unit.

Thats my thoughts on this, thanks Nick for the great subject.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

_" While I can't say anything at the moment I KNOW we will be getting busier soon."

_ There you go again, Scott. You are such a prick-tease! :lol:


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Using my resouces and a little smarts I got a 522, the same goes for the 811 and 921. I believe it is better for them to work with us then against us as we will get the information anyways.


To me, when a company gives THAT much equipment to ONE person (and the SuperDish too) it _appears_ to be more like a bribe than "beta testing". After all, who can be COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE in a review given all the free stuff and the potential for more if the company likes what it reads.

Nothing personally against you Scott, but a lot of us feel that is the reason that we can't always trust what we read from you. You APPEAR to be VERY deep in DISH's pocket.

And I'm NOT trying to contribute to the "war of the boards", this is just MY opinion.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Bill I guess you didn't read my 522 review. 

Clearly no pay off there.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

I'd do anything for DirecTV if they'd send me a damn HD TiVo....

Even marry their ugly daughter.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Bill R said:


> _To me, when a company gives THAT much equipment to ONE person (and the SuperDish too) it appears to be more like a bribe than "beta testing". After all, who can be COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE in a review given all the free stuff and the potential for more if the company likes what it reads.
> 
> Nothing personally against you Scott, but a lot of us feel that is the reason that we can't always trust what we read from you. You APPEAR to be VERY deep in DISH's pocket..._


 You presume to speak for "a lot of us", but you don't necessarily speak for me, particularly on this issue. You have a right to your opinion, but you don't have a right to say that you speak for unnamed and unnumbered persons here unless you can show some evidence of those for whom you presume to speak.

As far as the fairness and validity of Scott's reports goes, I have seen little or no indication that Scott is biased _for_ or _against_ Dish. If some of the "insider" news that is reported here turns out to be false or erroneous, then that is not necessarily Scott's doing. As far as equipment reviews go, other than a natural bias resulting from the enthusiasm many of us share with Scott in this DBS "hobby", most of his reports seem fair & balanced to me.

Remember, for the most part, Scott depends on information provided to him by others, some of whom may well have their own hidden agendas. I'll take what news Scott or anyone else can garner and make my own evaluation as to the validity.

One thing I do know is that _Scott Greczkowski_, _Chris Blount_, _Dan Collins_, _John Hodgson_ and many others have devoted countless hours of their personal time and much of their personal resources to provide places where we DBS geeks and nerds can come hang out, learn, share and argue about this fascinating subject called Direct Broadcast Satellite.

Take it hook, line and sinker, or with a grain of salt, or not at all. That's your choice, but please don't fail to appreciate what others have done and are doing on your behalf.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I think that Dish puts out info or leaks about new products to get the public interested in their new receivers and dishes etc on this and other web boards. Unfortunately they release these new receivers without all the software and bells and whistles that it is suppossed to have. I think Directv has the right idea to wait to release their products and decisions till they are ready for the public. 

Of course publicity is priceless. Look how much Dish is discussed on these web boards vs Directv. I guess bad publicity is better than no publicity at all.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Of course publicity is priceless...I guess bad publicity is better than no publicity at all.


 Good point, Mike, but PeeWee Herman and Michael Jackson might disagree.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Nick said:


> You presume to speak for "a lot of us", but you don't necessarily speak for me, particularly on this issue. You have a right to your opinion, but you don't have a right to say that you speak for unnamed and unnumbered persons here unless you can show some evidence of those for whom you presume to speak.


Nick,

I never presume to speak for anyone other than myself. If you carefully read my post the first words were "to me", not "to us" or anything else that would indicate that I was speaking for anyone other that myself.

It is still _my_ opinion that ANYONE that gets a lot of free stuff can't be completely unbiased when it comes to reviewing that equipment. And, after posting my criticism, I did get an e-mail from someone else who has used the 522 and he said that he thought Scott's review was "overly kind" given the software bugs the HE seen on the receiver. He added that "most of the really annoying bugs were not even mentioned in Scott's review". Maybe Scott hasn't used the 522 enough to see them but when I hear about those things I really have to "think twice" about Scott's reviews.



Nick said:


> One thing I do know is that _Scott Greczkowski_, _Chris Blount_, _Dan Collins_, _John Hodgson_ and many others have devoted countless hours of their personal time and much of their personal resources to provide places where we DBS geeks and nerds can come hang out, learn, share and argue about this fascinating subject called Direct Broadcast Satellite.
> 
> Please don't fail to appreciate what others have done and are doing on your behalf.


Nick,

I whole hardily agree with you there and I really do appreciate all the hard work that goes into ALL the boards. I just think that I am a little more critical of a lot of the stuff that I read on the boards than you (and a lot of other people) are.


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## JBKing (Mar 23, 2002)

While acknowledging individuals for their countless hours toiled away in providing us with dbs information, let's not forget Bill R, who undoubtedly kept many of us sane during 'the original DishPlayer' years. Without his help, I bet half of 'us' would not even be a Dish customer anymore. I would put his accurate information percentage at 95% or better.

Kudos Bill .


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