# Just Replaced Hard Drive



## DkAir (Jul 29, 2006)

After reading the con's of my new R15 which has been degrading in service since I purchased it in Feb I dedcided to play with it a bit. I had a Segate 160gig in my spare computer and was going to try and clone the R15 drive over to mine and see if it would work. 

I never had to go that far. Just to see I decided to place the new drive from my computer into the R15 to see what would happen. I installed the drive and powered the unit up. The first blue screen came up and then the second where it says "almost their". When the screen went black I did the Down Arrow/Rec Button to format and the lite came on after 10 sec or so. I was like ok so far. I sat back on my couch and no more then 30 sec later the screen came back on and said it was getting guide info. 15 sec later I was up and running. Its been runing for about an hour now woth no problems at all. Just waiting for guide data to populate before I start my recordings. 

The drive I pulled was already formated by my windows xp with the nfts file system which i'm sure was redone by the R15. I installed the old drive in the R15 into my computer and it seems to be working however I plan on doing some stress tests on it to check its condition. It is fat32 right now which I will change once im done playing with it.


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## rlambert7 (Feb 7, 2006)

So, are you saying that you did not clone the R15 drive onto your Seagate drive, just put it in the R15, and voila?

What is the capacity of the drive you pulled from the R15?


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## DkAir (Jul 29, 2006)

They are both 160 gig drives from segate. Not same model. The drive I pulled from the computer was partitioned and formated by windows. All I did was delete everyting on the drive before I put it in the R15. 

Also, which I have forgot to mention in my 1st post, there was no software download done as well.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

That's because software is not stored on the hard drive. I'm pretty sure it's stored in the same place as all DirecTV branded receivers store them.

Can I ask you to record a few things, download this program http://copyplus.artisswebdesign.co.uk/, follow the instructions of course, and see if it works (if possible)?


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## DkAir (Jul 29, 2006)

I have recorded a few things and have about 10 other recordings lined up to see how the R15 is going to respond. I don't want to do anything eles right now but will try that prog. when the recordings are done.


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## KevinPublic (Mar 31, 2006)

Would you foresee any issues with replacing the 160Gb drive with something larger... say a 250Gb?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

DkAir said:


> I never had to go that far. Just to see I decided to place the new drive from my computer into the R15 to see what would happen. I installed the drive and powered the unit up. The first blue screen came up and then the second where it says "almost their". When the screen went black I did the Down Arrow/Rec Button to format and the lite came on after 10 sec or so. I was like ok so far. I sat back on my couch and no more then 30 sec later the screen came back on and said it was getting guide info. 15 sec later I was up and running. Its been runing for about an hour now woth no problems at all. Just waiting for guide data to populate before I start my recordings.


DkAir, do you have 10C8? From everything I remember about what Wolffpack posted you would have to copy to sectors off the R15's HD in order for it to be able to work with the R15. Maybe they changed something in this last release? Wolffpack please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

KevinPublic said:


> Would you foresee any issues with replacing the 160Gb drive with something larger... say a 250Gb?


It's been done (and documented here) to no real effect. My theory is that the software is hard-coded to give 100 hours to user recordings and everything else to the (future) on-demand space (approx 60 hours).

This is actually a pretty cool feature if true because it allows a deterministic recording time, regardless of compression level used by DirecTV (no more "up to 100 hours", only to find out that sports gives you more like 60).

But obviously it means putting a larger drive in there would require changing that limit, which is feasible (see all the ways the TiVo app is patched using a hex editor), but very difficult (since it's in flash memory).


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi All
I did what DkAir did and it worked OK. My software is 10B8 and I did not do what Wolfpack has done. RECORD AND DOWN ARROW on fresh NTFS HDD and thats it.
SSTV


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Does it have to be an NTFS formatted drive? What if it was FAT32 formatted?
Or can it be straight from the box, with no file system on it yet?


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## sstv (Jul 30, 2006)

Hi All 
I recalled that Wolfpack had said something about NTFS format so thats what I tried. I cant comment on other format types.
My purpose was to have a backup HDD in case the R15 HDD goes south and to that end I was successful.
My R15 does not have any problems other then the SL thing and I dont ever want a replacement from what I have been reading. 
Bought in Nov 2005.
SSTV


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## DkAir (Jul 29, 2006)

Well the r15 drive i removed was fat32. I just removed the drive from a computer and put it in the R15. The drive was in ntfs format. I don't know what the R15 did as far as it's format. I will pull the drive and see what it is now. I'm still running 10b8 software..


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

I think the box reformats the drive, so you could have a ABC file type and it changes it to the XTV file system (whatever that is) regardless to what file type is it's formated on originally.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

DkAir said:


> Well the r15 drive i removed was fat32. I just removed the drive from a computer and put it in the R15. The drive was in ntfs format. I don't know what the R15 did as far as it's format. I will pull the drive and see what it is now. I'm still running 10b8 software..


Weird, I'm 99% sure that the only way Wolffpack and others had been able to put another drive in the unit was to copy the 0 and 63 sector over to the drive. I wonder why they changed that? I'm glad they did because it is easier for us to replace our own drives (still doesn't help increase our recording space since it only records 100hrs no matter what). Maybe this change was done to make it easier/faster to refurb the units? That way they don't have to have preformated drives and save a step?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Weird, I'm 99% sure that the only way Wolffpack and others had been able to put another drive in the unit was to copy the 0 and 63 sector over to the drive. I wonder why they changed that? I'm glad they did because it is easier for us to replace our own drives (still doesn't help increase our recording space since it only records 100hrs no matter what). Maybe this change was done to make it easier/faster to refurb the units? That way they don't have to have preformated drives and save a step?


Well then that also leads to the uestion if that is changed (thats a big if) is the drive space limit still in effect? Wolffpack care to try it out on the R15 you where messing with before?


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Wolfpack's been mysteriously absent from this discussion.

I thought the Down Arrow/Rec process only took a few seconds? That's not fast enough to actually format the drive is it?



DkAir said:


> Well the r15 drive i removed was fat32.


So you're saying that the original drive from the R15 was formatted for Fat32? That's odd.


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

Earl said (a few months ago) that the r15 was fat32.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

qwerty said:


> So you're saying that the original drive from the R15 was formatted for Fat32? That's odd.


Didn't Wolff say it was some sort of Fat32 offshoot?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> Didn't Wolff say it was some sort of Fat32 offshoot?


Yeah something to that effect. I think he must be on vaction or something I haven't seen him on the board at all lately.

I was also thinking that maybe if the changed 0,63 sector requirment that maybe they changed 100 limit but I doubt it.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

psweig said:


> Earl said (a few months ago) that the r15 was fat32.


I guess the memory's on e of the first things to go. :grin: I thought I remebered him saying it was NTFS. I need to re-read that thread.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Not I... Wolffpack did the research... and came up with that it was something "similar" to FAT32

I actually have never hooked the hard drive up to any of my computer (as of yet)...


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

qwerty said:


> I thought the Down Arrow/Rec process only took a few seconds?


No, it takes a while. I didnt time it but it was long enough for me to get tired of sitting there and go do something else and come back.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Weird, I'm 99% sure that the only way Wolffpack and others had been able to put another drive in the unit was to copy the 0 and 63 sector over to the drive. I wonder why they changed that? I'm glad they did because it is easier for us to replace our own drives (still doesn't help increase our recording space since it only records 100hrs no matter what). Maybe this change was done to make it easier/faster to refurb the units? That way they don't have to have preformated drives and save a step?


That seems to have changed in either 10B8 or 10C8. I haven't played with this using the past couple of software releases.

I just pulled out the test 250GB drive I used, zeroed the drive, placed it in the R15 and did a DA/REC. The R15 formatted it as a 250GB FAT32'ish drive. I'm going to load it up with recordings to see if the 100GB limit is still in place.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

qwerty said:


> Wolfpack's been mysteriously absent from this discussion.
> 
> I thought the Down Arrow/Rec process only took a few seconds? That's not fast enough to actually format the drive is it?
> 
> So you're saying that the original drive from the R15 was formatted for Fat32? That's odd.


That's the funny thing about the need to make a living. Ya have to work. :eek2: Been a tad busy lately.

From my experience DA/REC takes maybe a minute. Just ran one today. It really doesn't take long to format a FAT32 filesystem. Create two new FATs and create the jopa and .dbf files and that't it. There's no need to write to the whole drive.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> Didn't Wolff say it was some sort of Fat32 offshoot?


My theory is that the file system they use is ERTFS Pro, or Pro 64. It's based on FAT32 but with extensions that support larger file sizes.

http://www.ebsembeddedsoftware.com/product_ertfs_overview.htm#


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> My theory is that the file system they use is ERTFS Pro, or Pro 64. It's based on FAT32 but with extensions that support larger file sizes.
> 
> http://www.ebsembeddedsoftware.com/product_ertfs_overview.htm#


The person who makes the Copy+ program says _exactly_ the same thing (except the ERTFS Pro part) in his FAQs, so I think you've hit it right on the nail. I have no idea what you would be able to do with this information, but it's very cool none the less.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> That's the funny thing about the need to make a living. Ya have to work. :eek2: Been a tad busy lately.


Wow do I know that feeling lately. I have been out of town working at clients FAR more then I have been home the past 6 months. Sucks but as you said, need to make a living.


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## DkAir (Jul 29, 2006)

Bobman said:


> No, it takes a while. I didnt time it but it was long enough for me to get tired of sitting there and go do something else and come back.


My format only took about 15 sec or right around there. I still havent pulled the drive yet to see how it was formatted but as mentioned by wolf its going the fat32ish route. The Dvr is running strong however and I have yet to see or notice any problems with the new drive. On the old one it was a messing up each and every day no matter how many resets or formats I would have done. recorded about 30 hours of stuff . I watch them at random but all seems good so far.


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## DkAir (Jul 29, 2006)

qwerty said:


> Wolfpack's been mysteriously absent from this discussion.
> 
> I thought the Down Arrow/Rec process only took a few seconds? That's not fast enough to actually format the drive is it?
> 
> So you're saying that the original drive from the R15 was formatted for Fat32? That's odd.


When I installed the orginal R15 drive in my XP box it indicated that it was fat32..


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Looking tonight at my 250GB drive in the R15, it still appears the 100GB limit is hard coded in the OS. I have 2.25 hours recorded in MYVOD and it's showing 97% available.

Does that mean it will stop when it gets to 0% available? It did before when I tried it. I'll try again on 10C8 but I really don't expect anything different.

So bottom line is that the sector 0 and sector 63 business isn't required any more for the DA/REC format to work. Plop in any 160 GB drive, do a DA/REC and you'll be in business.

Oh, also, using a 300GB drive still doesn't work. Something about going from 160/250 to 300 must bother the developers and they don't want to do anything with that. OR the filesystem isn't supporting that. Interested to see what size drive the HR20 has in it.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

DkAir said:


> When I installed the orginal R15 drive in my XP box it indicated that it was fat32..


FAT32 flag is something contained in the partition record. The first 512 bytes of the drive. Any program can flag a partition as FAT32 and then record data to it in a different method. Other OSes and programs that look at the partition record will see FAT32 and treat that partition as such. Doesn't mean all the data can be read.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> That seems to have changed in either 10B8 or 10C8.


That's what I thought thanks for confirming it. It must have been 10D8, hmmm, wasn't that about the time Earl locked your other thread? Were we getting to close to the new autoformat?:lol: (I know why it was lock but I wonder if someone would have found it sooner if it hadn't have been locked)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

no... that wasn't why we closed the other thread.... 
It just got WAY to far off the original topic.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> no... that wasn't why we closed the other thread....
> It just got WAY to far off the original topic.


I know.  I take it you haven't heard why they changed this then?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> Looking tonight at my 250GB drive in the R15, it still appears the 100GB limit is hard coded in the OS. I have 2.25 hours recorded in MYVOD and it's showing 97% available.
> 
> Does that mean it will stop when it gets to 0% available? It did before when I tried it. I'll try again on 10C8 but I really don't expect anything different.
> 
> ...


Confirmed. The disk space bar is in relation to 100GB and it stops recording new shows at that have level. About 91.5 hours on a drive formatted at 250GB. Anyway, end of that test until a new version.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Confirmed. The disk space bar is in relation to 100GB and it stops recording new shows at that have level. About 91.5 hours on a drive formatted at 250GB. Anyway, end of that test until a new version.


Refresh my memory. Isn't this the reverse of what you found last time? Didn't it always give you 100hrs of recording before no matter what type of programs you recorded?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

The couple of time before when I let it fill up it was about 104 and 102 hours. I just attribute the differences to the individual shows recorded.


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## pcbbc (Aug 29, 2006)

jonaswan2 said:


> The person who makes the Copy+ program says _exactly_ the same thing (except the ERTFS Pro part) in his FAQs, so I think you've hit it right on the nail. I have no idea what you would be able to do with this information, but it's very cool none the less.


The BIOS Parameter Block contains the signature "EBSNET", so it is some EBS product derivative.
The type of disk format and structure you are describing (FAT32, jopa, .dbf files) is sounding very similar to the Sky+ format in the UK (as you might expect).
As to if it's ERTFS Pro or ProPlus64 or some earlier format I don't know - all my stuff was worked out from first principles.


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## rbpeirce (Feb 24, 2006)

Supposedly Tivo recorders need a special drive. Is the R15 different or is this information wrong?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

rbpeirce said:


> Supposedly Tivo recorders need a special drive. Is the R15 different or is this information wrong?


Tivo needs a special drive? Not that i'm aware of, you just need to prep the drive before installing.

The R15 doesn't need anything special BUT it's also not able to be upgraded as of right now. Not sure if it will be figured out or if it will change.


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## rbpeirce (Feb 24, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> Tivo needs a special drive? Not that i'm aware of, you just need to prep the drive before installing.


Weaknees claims there is a special type of drive used for DVRs that is different from drives used in computers. This is not correct?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

rbpeirce said:


> Weaknees claims there is a special type of drive used for DVRs that is different from drives used in computers. This is not correct?


There are some drives that say they are for DVR's but most of it is just marketing hype. Most everyone I know that has upgraded their Tivo just went out and bought the biggest drive that was on sale that given Sunday/Week  They are all just IDE drives except for the new HR20 which is SATA.


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## rbpeirce (Feb 24, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> There are some drives that say they are for DVR's but most of it is just marketing hype. Most everyone I know that has upgraded their Tivo just went out and bought the biggest drive that was on sale that given Sunday/Week  They are all just IDE drives except for the new HR20 which is SATA.


This is getting wildly off-topic, but can drives be plugged into a Tivo as easily as an R15 or do they require special preparation? If the latter, what is required in the way of hardware/software?


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

rbpeirce said:


> This is getting wildly off-topic, but can drives be plugged into a Tivo as easily as an R15 or do they require special preparation? If the latter, what is required in the way of hardware/software?


Yes, Tivo hard drive require special preparation. Check out the "Tivo Upgrade Center Forum" at http://www.tivocommunity.com. Look for Weaknees' thread at the top of that forum. The process is quite easy, and all of the tools are freely available.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

litzdog911 is correct tivocommunity.com is a great place to find all that info and is also correct that you have to prep the drive before putting it in the machine. Back on topic we go now


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## pcbbc (Aug 29, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> The R15 doesn't need anything special BUT it's also not able to be upgraded as of right now. Not sure if it will be figured out or if it will change.


For someone who is on the over side of the pond from you, but interested in the subject  Please could you explain - Is this due to the 100GB recording limit I've read about?

Has anyone tried my Copy+ software on your platform yet (sorry can't post links yet ) ? I'm interested to see if it will work for copying drives, and if not why not. If we can get it to work, it will at least provide a way to backup and replace failing drives - which is going to be of use to someone eventually!

I'd certainly be interested in taking a look at the contents of one of your drives (the JOPA file with the recording details, for example) . Is anyone be interested in helping out? You can PM me or contact me via the web site.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Yes the 100GB limit doesn't seem to change regardless of what size drive is put in the machine. According to research that Wollfpack did he was able to get the larger drive in and working but could never get it to go above 100GB. You may want to talk to him as he has delved the deepest into this subject.



pcbbc said:


> For someone who is on the over side of the pond from you, but interested in the subject  Please could you explain - Is this due to the 100GB recording limit I've read about?
> 
> Has anyone tried my Copy+ software on your platform yet (sorry can't post links yet ) ? I'm interested to see if it will work for copying drives, and if not why not. If we can get it to work, it will at least provide a way to backup and replace failing drives - which is going to be of use to someone eventually!
> 
> I'd certainly be interested in taking a look at the contents of one of your drives (the JOPA file with the recording details, for example) . Is anyone be interested in helping out? You can PM me or contact me via the web site.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

pcbbc said:


> Has anyone tried my Copy+ software on your platform yet (sorry can't post links yet ) ? I'm interested to see if it will work for copying drives, and if not why not. If we can get it to work, it will at least provide a way to backup and replace failing drives - which is going to be of use to someone eventually!


We (several people) have copied drives from the R15 using Linux and dd. The copied drive works the same as the original drive.

You do not want to put an R15 drive in a Windows PC and boot up, as Windows will write system files to the R15 drive that can/will interfere with the drive working properly when you put it back in the R15.

Someone noted that with the latest software upgrade, you can put any drive in an R15 and do the down-arrow/record reset and have the drive work properly as a new drive.

Carl


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## pcbbc (Aug 29, 2006)

carl6 said:


> We (several people) have copied drives from the R15 using Linux and dd. The copied drive works the same as the original drive.


Was that a copy with or without any recordings? Presumably the destination drive partition was the same size of the source?



> You do not want to put an R15 drive in a Windows PC and boot up, as Windows will write system files to the R15 drive that can/will interfere with the drive working properly when you put it back in the R15.


Over here with Sky+ I have found using a USB caddy is preferable to internal IDE, and tends to prevent a lot of problems (like an automatic Windows chkdsk running on startup ).

Also I have some experimental drivers which make XTVFS volumes appear read only under Windows, and so prevent the recycle bin and system restore directories being created - although I have never seen them cause a problem for a Sky+ system (it just seems ignores them). Of course things may be different for R15.



> Someone noted that with the latest software upgrade, you can put any drive in an R15 and do the down-arrow/record reset and have the drive work properly as a new drive.


Same with Sky+ here in the UK (but the reset procedure is slightly different). However (obviously) you do not get to keep your recordings which is the point of Copy+.
I guess that, because upgrading your drive does not give you any more space, the incentive for using my utility is greatly reduced. 

Sorry if some of my questions seem dumb, but I'm just curious to find out what I can about the disk format, etc. having done a lot of work on the UK system.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Don't seem dumb at all. It is a pleasure to have someone here from the other side of the pond thats uses the Sky+ and can clue us all in. Just no hacking or extraction talk :lol: had to put on the mod hat for a second. Now that it's off Welcome.....



pcbbc said:


> Was that a copy with or without any recordings? Presumably the destination drive partition was the same size of the source?
> 
> Over here with Sky+ I have found using a USB caddy is preferable to internal IDE, and tends to prevent a lot of problems (like an automatic Windows chkdsk running on startup ).
> 
> ...


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> Tivo needs a special drive? Not that i'm aware of, you just need to prep the drive before installing.
> 
> The R15 doesn't need anything special BUT it's also not able to be upgraded as of right now. Not sure if it will be figured out or if it will change.


Clint, someone posting on this board (forget who) claims to have done this already.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

psweig said:


> Clint, someone posting on this board (forget who) claims to have done this already.


Well they have replaced the drive (actually a few have) but no one has actually gotten it to use anymore drive space then was originally in the machine. The HR20 I hear they have been able to get it to use more space though.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

pcbbc said:


> Was that a copy with or without any recordings? Presumably the destination drive partition was the same size of the source?


The copies were done both with and without recordings. Recordings could be played without any problem once copied to a new drive. But as others have discovered drives cannot be moved from R15 to R15. Or at least you won't be able to play recordings.



pcbbc said:


> Over here with Sky+ I have found using a USB caddy is preferable to internal IDE, and tends to prevent a lot of problems (like an automatic Windows chkdsk running on startup ).


I limit any non R15 connections to Linux only. Windows does too many things I don't know about.



pcbbc said:


> Also I have some experimental drivers which make XTVFS volumes appear read only under Windows, and so prevent the recycle bin and system restore directories being created - although I have never seen them cause a problem for a Sky+ system (it just seems ignores them). Of course things may be different for R15.


The R15 has a form of FAT32 filesystem. It has a ID of EBSNET and there is a company that sells an extended FAT32 filesystem which allows for larger files. I think it's one of the products mentioned here: http://www.ebsembeddedsoftware.com/product_ertfs_overview.htm#



pcbbc said:


> I guess that, because upgrading your drive does not give you any more space, the incentive for using my utility is greatly reduced.


Correct. The limit of 100 hours seems to be hard coded regardless of the filesystem size.



pcbbc said:


> Sorry if some of my questions seem dumb, but I'm just curious to find out what I can about the disk format, etc. having done a lot of work on the UK system.


There's nothing dumb about your questions. Here's some info on the other things I worked on back then. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=54346


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

The one copy I did (using dd) was with recordings, and the duplicate drive worked exactly the same as the original drive. Both were the same size drives (160 gig).

The dd copy is a bit by bit copy of the entire drive, so everything would come out the same (partitions, content, etc.).

Carl


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## rbpeirce (Feb 24, 2006)

carl6 said:


> The dd copy is a bit by bit copy of the entire drive, so everything would come out the same (partitions, content, etc.).


Doesn't that include bad sectors?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Bad sectors should be re-mapped before copying, use MHDD for check and remap in same pass.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

rbpeirce said:


> Doesn't that include bad sectors?


Bad sectors are at a physical. HDs come with extra sectors so when one goes bad it grabs a spare. From the OS side it doesn't know a sector is bad and doesn't care since when it says read sector x it will get the contents of sector x even if the drive dtors it in sector x+30000.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Nay, bad sector stay there forever, only HDD firmware could re-map it. That's why I pointed to the program. 
Any OS and copy program will choke on those spots. 
You don't know how recipient STB will process if sector will read with bad content.


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