# Very frustrated and or confused.....



## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

Hello

Okay, heres the deal......I've been a directv customer since pretty much day one. I've always gotten the DNS feeds in SD since day one. Never been an issue at all till I switched over to HD about a month ago.

Got all the DNS SD feeds again and the HD DNS West feeds: ABC, NBC, and FOX,whch came in right away. The CBS HD West feed never came in.....

After numerous calls and e-mails they said I had to wait 45 days for my "local affiliate" to grant or deny the waiver to get the CBS west HD feed. My "local affiliate" is a locally owned station 300 miles east of me in North Dakota. I live out in a very rural area of NE Montana. 

Okay, today I get a card in the mail that the waiver was denied by my "local tv station" which just doesn't make any sense to me at all.....I guarantee you on my Mothers grave that there is not any OTA CBS HD broadcast from these guys in my area, which I assume is the reason they denied the waiver???

I've also talked to quite a few people in my area that have switched over to HD and they are all getting the DNS CBS in HD. And to top it all off Directv kept telling me since I"m getting all the other feeds there wasn't going to be any problem with CBSHD, I just had to be patient......

So.....thats where I stand, all this fancy equipment, tv, dish, HDDVR, and I'm still watching CSI and Survivor in SD...... .....any ideas??

Thanks for any replies!!


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

Call the local station and challenge their waiver denial. I believe if you do, they have to come out and do a site test to prove that you can get their signal, and if you can't they have to approve the waiver. I might be wrong, but I believe that is how the process works.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

puckwithahalo said:


> Call the local station and challenge their waiver denial. I believe if you do, they have to come out and do a site test to prove that you can get their signal, and if you can't they have to approve the waiver. I might be wrong, but I believe that is how the process works.


Okay, but would this be a test for any signal at all or just an HD signal?

Thanks for the reply


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

i believe since the waiver is for the digital signal, it would be a digital test. I don't know though. My parents had to do the same thing for analog several years ago because they are on the backside of a mountain, and while they are easily within the range of the transmission, they get 0 signal because of it.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

There is no way you can get a stable, reliable signal if you are 300 miles from the transmitter with any normal antenna. Call that channel and do some complaining. I bet they won't even send someone on a 600 mile round trip to test for the signal.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

puckwithahalo said:


> i believe since the waiver is for the digital signal, it would be a digital test. I don't know though. My parents had to do the same thing for analog several years ago because they are on the backside of a mountain, and while they are easily within the range of the transmission, they get 0 signal because of it.


Well the reason I asked , there is a tower over here about 30 miles from me that we use to get our tv off of, back in the uhf days. I have no idea if theres still signal being broadcast off of there or not....or what signals they are( I know they arent hd)


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

If that tower is rebroadcasting the CBS signal (from the station 300 miles away) in digital (which is almost always done via UHF), whether the digital signal is HD or not, they can and probably will deny your waiver. You might want to do some research on this.

Anyway, this isn't a DirecTV issue; they are just following FCC rules.


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

Sartori said:


> Well the reason I asked , there is a tower over here about 30 miles from me that we use to get our tv off of, back in the uhf days. I have no idea if theres still signal being broadcast off of there or not....or what signals they are( I know they arent hd)


Go to tvfool.com and see what low power and/or translator stations may be within an antenna's reach.

However, there is no date (as for this posting) set for low power, translator, and class-A stations to end analog.

So, you may have local TV, but not necessarily digital TV, after 2/17/09.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

IIP said:


> If that tower is rebroadcasting the CBS signal (from the station 300 miles away) in digital (which is almost always done via UHF), whether the digital signal is HD or not, they can and probably will deny your waiver. You might want to do some research on this.
> 
> Anyway, this isn't a DirecTV issue; they are just following FCC rules.


Well this is all new to me and wasn't really expecting all this hassle changing over to hd, when I called Directv they are the ones that reassured me that being as the other hd networks came in that I wouldn't have any problem with CBS..... I guess they were caught off guard too

I still don't understand though why all these other people in my area didn't have a bit of problem getting their CBS in hd....

I don't know, its just really discouraging.....

Thanks again for the replies


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

IIP said:


> If that tower is rebroadcasting the CBS signal (from the station 300 miles away) *in digital (which is almost always done via UHF)*,


What?

Digital TV is broadcast on whatever RF channel(s) are available in a market, after considering potential co-channel and adjacent channel interference within the local and surrounding markets.

Since VHF was "populated" first, mostly UHF slots were the only ones available for an additional OTA signal. Digital or analog, it didn't matter.

There is no preference by the FCC for digital TV to be either on VHF or UHF.

Broadcasters however are fearful of multi-path, impulse noise, etc. on VHF Low (2-6) that may interfere with reception. So, many are choosing to keep the new UHF assignments after the analog cut-off. But, there are a great many stations that will return to their VHF Hi (7-13) channels with the digital signal on 2/18/09.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

Okay, this is what it came up with.....

I don't know what the 10 means?

All those stations that start with C are Canadian, you probably knew that already


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

If either or both of those CBS stations shown on your TVFool results claims you're in their viewing area (whether you're located in their DMA or not), you'll have to get waivers from them before D* can give you CBS.

What do you get when you enter your address here:
http://directvdnseligibility.decisionmark.com/app/AddressForm.aspx


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

Nice Ranch!

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...91,-105.885823&spn=0.003238,0.006824&t=h&z=17


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

arxaw said:


> If either or both of those CBS stations shown on your TVFool results claims you're in their viewing area (whether you're located in their DMA or not), you'll have to get waivers from them before D* can give you CBS.
> 
> What do you get when you enter your address here:
> http://directvdnseligibility.decisionmark.com/app/AddressForm.aspx


Hello

Those stations KXGN and KXMD are part of KX Net which serves North Dakota and parts of Montana:

http://www.kxmc.com/reiten

who I guess denied the waiver for CBS HD according to the e-mail from Directv.

Okay on to that place where you enter the address, Theres no mail delivery out here so I get my mail at a P.O. Box in Wolf Point and use that zip code and town when I use my Physical address. Just cuts down on some of the confusion for mail delivery( don't even get me started on that fiasco) Also is easier for ups and fedex as thats where there terminals are. And of course thats what Directv is going by also and I assume KX net. I'll attach the results for that zip code which is what it looks like its going by.

I live in a different county then where Wolf Point is at and am actually closer to the Frazer zip code. Probably 7 miles line of sight compared to 12. So when I enter in my physical with that town and zip code I get a different result. I'll attach that also.

So apparently the other stations didn't have any issue at all granting me the waiver for other networks....

Thanks for all your help and also to Tower Guy whos been helping also.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

According to those text files you attached, you will need a waiver for CBS, if the address D* has on file is wolf point. If it was Frazier, you wouldn't need a waiver because it shows ELIGIBLE.

They go by the address in their records. If your address is ambiguous, you might be able to call and tell them your physical address is wrong, and actually in Frazier, while keeping your mailing address the same.

If they change it, hang up, call back and ask for someone who knows how to add HD DNS channels.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

arxaw said:


> According to those text files you attached, you will need a waiver for CBS, if the address D* has on file is wolf point. If it was Frazier, you wouldn't need a waiver because it shows ELIGIBLE.
> 
> They go by the address in their records. If your address is ambiguous, you might be able to call and tell them your physical address is wrong, and actually in Frazier, while keeping your mailing address the same.
> 
> If they change it, hang up, call back and ask for someone who knows how to add HD DNS channels.


Yes I think that is the plan right now, isn't rural life fun I kinda figured that might be part of the problem, but still doesn't make any sense why people in Wolf Point with HD are getting the CBSHD feed....anyway enough beating that dead horse.

I did find out some more interesting info today. That tower thats around 30 miles from me... There is still a feed off of there from a station in Great Falls which is about 300 miles away from me too. They have a dish network dish mounted up there and are rebroadcasting off of that on channel 51. I dont really think that would count for any elegibility for The Directv side of things would it, being as its a CBS rebroadcast feed of of Dish.....


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

Sartori said:


> Yes I think that is the plan right now, isn't rural life fun


Beats livin' in the city!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jclewter79 said:


> There is no way you can get a stable, reliable signal if you are 300 miles from the transmitter with any normal antenna. Call that channel and do some complaining. I bet they won't even send someone on a 600 mile round trip to test for the signal.


That's why repeaters were invented. Some states are littered with them. My local CBS affiliate has over 40 repeaters scattered around the area. If you're covered by a repeater, they will likely deny you.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

harsh said:


> That's why repeaters were invented. Some states are littered with them. My local CBS affiliate has over 40 repeaters scattered around the area. If you're covered by a repeater, they will likely deny you.


Well according to that map from tvfool.com I guess their repeater out of Minot is located in Williston which is around 100 miles east of me, which I didn't realize at first because I thought they were basing it out of Minot which was my mistake for assuming.....

But I'll talk to them anyway, see what they have to say....


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Sartori said:


> Well according to that map from tvfool.com I guess their repeater out of Minot is located in Williston which is around 100 miles east of me, which I didn't realize at first because I thought they were basing it out of Minot which was my mistake for assuming.....


Another possibly flawed assumption is that your translators/repeaters will be digital. More than likely, they are not. I'm thinking it is possible for an affiliate to deny you HD if they offer only SD.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

harsh said:


> Another possibly flawed assumption is that your translators/repeaters will be digital. More than likely, they are not. I'm thinking it is possible for an affiliate to deny you HD if they offer only SD.


Yeah well thats a flawed statement if I ever saw one too, that they can deny me my hd when they are only broadcasting in SD in the first place.....

You know I would not have any problem what so ever watching their channel if I was in their city and they had an OTA HD feed, be more then happy too. But for cripes sakes I'm out here 300 miles from their originating broadcast.....and they can sit over there "playing God" and saying sorry, no HD for you....


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Kansas Zephyr said:


> What?
> 
> Digital TV is broadcast on whatever RF channel(s) are available in a market, after considering potential co-channel and adjacent channel interference within the local and surrounding markets.
> 
> ...


So, you would agree, then, that "most" stations are using UHF frequencies for their digital signals, right? That's what I wrote, and I did so in response to the original OP's inference that UHF probably wasn't that important for digital broadcasts.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Sartori said:


> But for cripes sakes I'm out here 300 miles from their originating broadcast.....


One of the hazards of living in East Jesus.

What would you do otherwise? Choose a station that is only 100 miles away?


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

harsh said:


> One of the hazards of living in East Jesus.
> 
> What would you do otherwise? Choose a station that is only 100 miles away?


Maybe I should move to West Jesus

But, that is still what I'm going to do is get the Installation address updated first. That really is what it should read anyway is Frazer, not Wolf Point.....


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

IIP said:


> So, you would agree, then, that "most" stations are using UHF frequencies for their digital signals, right? That's what I wrote, and I did so in response to the original OP's inference that UHF probably wasn't that important for digital broadcasts.


Most translators are UHF...and most of those are, and will be for a while, analog.

So, no, whenever one is in an area far away from the center of a DMA, then most likely the OTA channels that serve him/her would be both low-power UHF and analog, until flash-cut to digital at a later date.

So having UHF can be important for ANY OTA signal in those areas. Not, just for digital.

One should make sure that analog pass-through is factored into any setup if they are served by translators, low-powers, or Class-As.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Most translators are UHF...and most of those are, and will be for a while, analog.
> 
> So, no, whenever one is in an area far away from the center of a DMA, then most likely the OTA channels that serve him/her would be both low-power UHF and analog, until flash-cut to digital at a later date.
> 
> ...


Well are they(the Minot station) thinking that I can get that UHF signal off of that repeater tower in Willistion thats 100 miles away from me?


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

Sartori said:


> Well are they(the Minot station) thinking that I can get that UHF signal off of that repeater tower in Willistion thats 100 miles away from me?


If you provide them with your physical location...and challenge them to come out and perform a on-site survey confirming that you can't...they should wake up and grant you a waiver.

Also, I'd look at the analog and digital, in addition to the before and after 2/17/09, output on tvfool.com.

If you are within the analog translator coverage of a "local" station, they do have the legal right to deny you a waiver, unfortunately.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

Sartori said:


> But, that is still what I'm going to do is get the Installation address updated first. That really is what it should read anyway is Frazer, not Wolf Point.....


That's what you should do, if Frazer shows eligible for CBS HD on the qualification web site and your address is wrong.

Just tell them it's wrong on your account. If the CSR won't change it, talk to a supervisor. Don't mention DNS, you'll just confuse the poor CSR. If they get the incorrect address changed (check your account online), call back and ask for DNS.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

Just an update so far, I did get the site installation address changed so its reading correctly now with the right county.....

Guess I'll give them another call now and see what happens with the CBSHD. I've been in contact with the other "local networks" ABC and NBC. They were very nice to talk to and deal with. They would be watching to see if another waiver came through and would grant it right away.

Now the other station.....in Minot. I"ve sent them three e-mails, to the engineer, the station manager, and customer service and no reply back at all. I was very nice in the e-mails asking questions, telling them about the wrong address, the whole story and was very honest also. 

So not sure why they won't respond....

Anyway I guess I'm on to step two....


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

Hello again,

We have a winner!! I finally got around to calling them today and am now receiving my CBS DNS HD feed. 

I don't know, the whole deal still seems a bit strange as the rep on the phone claimed that the waiver for the CBS HD feed was never submitted. And it only took maybe a half an hour for the feed to be enabled....And I had gotten a card in the mail saying the waiver was denied.....

Anyway at least I'm getting it finally


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Kewl!


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

Congratulations. 

Persistence pays off.


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