# What channel numbers will stations call themselves after analog shutdown?



## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Just curious, what's the plan after analog shutdown for what channel number stations will call themselves once they shut down their analog channel and their digital channel is different?

I know with PSIP the stations use a virtual channel number to make it transparent to the view what the actual digital channel number is. Example our local CBS KEYE-TV is on channel 42 and digital is channel 43 and is staying on 43 after analog shutdown. The station uses the channel 42 extensively in their station logo and ad's. Now a new digital station comes along and the get's assigned channel 42, do we now have two stations advertising themselves as channel 42, does KEYE need to change their ad's/logo's? Just wondering what the rules/law are concering this, anyone know?


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

The station has the option of either using it's actual RF channel, or it's legacy analog channel number for it's PSIP virtual channel ID.

So, if WXXX today is analog channel 10, digital RF channel 45, they can use either 10.1 or 45.1 as their PSIP virtual channel ID.

Even after channel 10 "goes dark" they can still use 10.1 as their PSIP ID on RF channel 45.

It's the station's choice.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Kansas Zephyr said:


> The station has the option of either using it's actual RF channel, or it's legacy analog channel number for it's PSIP virtual channel ID.
> 
> So, if WXXX today is analog channel 10, digital RF channel 45, they can use either 10.1 or 45.1 as their PSIP virtual channel ID.
> 
> ...


OK, so the station decides to continue with the channel 10 ID even though they're on 45, what happens if a new station gets assigned channel 10, can they force the other station to change or can they call themselves whatever they want to?


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

RAD said:


> OK, so the station decides to continue with the channel 10 ID even though they're on 45, what happens if a new station gets assigned channel 10, can they force the other station to change or can they call themselves whatever they want to?


IDK

Good question.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

There are rules laid down - but they don't have a choice 

Station that had an analog station - must always refer to them selves as their old channel number

new station in area, they got assigned old analog station' RF channel - they have to choose another number that is not in use for that DMA. If the new station is assigned an RF channel that was NOT previously use - they use their RFchannel number.

I maybe slightly wrong on the legacy analog station paragraph, but I'm pretty sure of it.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Thanks, just wondering how conflicts would be handled.


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

scooper said:


> There are rules laid down - but they don't have a choice
> 
> Station that had an analog station - must always refer to them selves as their old channel number


Do you have a reference for that?

I've been told by local TV station's management that's it's their choice, and are opting to keep the legacy channel number as PSIP for continuity only after the transition.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm not sure how conflicts would be handled, but since the PSIP channel number will have absolutely nothing to do with the real channel number in most cases, I don't see new channels building their marketing around channel number anyway unless it is the number they use on the dominant cable channel. 

If a new station is allocated to use VHF channel 10 (which I think is impossible as that part of the spectrum is being auctioned, I think) where a PSIP channel 10.1 is in use, well that's poor planning for one and for another they could call themselves channel 9 and who would care? 

An interesting case is in Palm Springs, California, where cable/satellite penetration is in the 90% or higher, the dominant broadcasters there have always used their cableco channel number to identify themselves. Always. KESQ-TV has always broadcast on analog 42 and will move to digital 52, and is known throughout the region as channel 3.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

I would expect the vast majority of stations will continue to use their old analog channel name after Feb, just for continuity and ease of understanding. You ask the avg person what a virtual channel is and they'll look at your cross eyed and say 'what?'.


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> If a new station is allocated to use VHF channel 10 (which I think is impossible as that part of the spectrum is being auctioned, I think) where a PSIP channel 10.1 is in use, well that's poor planning for one and for another they could call themselves channel 9 and who would care?


The 700MHz spectrum being taken from the TV service are channels 52-69.

Channels 2-51 are, and will still be, for TV.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Thanks for clearing that up.


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## reddice (Feb 18, 2003)

Kansas Zephyr said:


> The 700MHz spectrum being taken from the TV service are channels 52-69.
> 
> Channels 2-51 are, and will still be, for TV.


Actually it is 698MHz spectrum. I think they took too much off. The problem is that the UHF band is so packed with all of these stupid low power stations that there is not much room for digital stations which is why they are right next to each other.


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## Pepster (Oct 29, 2008)

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Do you have a reference for that?
> 
> I've been told by local TV station's management that's it's their choice, and are opting to keep the legacy channel number as PSIP for continuity only after the transition.


It might be more of an issue in the larger metropolitan areas where there are many more channels, so the potential for a conflict arising is much greater. Here, among other things, so called channel 55 is supposedly moving to Channel 47. The problem there is Telemundo network is still at Channel 47 so they have to move also. I was looking forward to doing that OTA channel scan on transition day just to see how things would fall out.

Now, with what's going on in Congress (provided, the House of Representatives also approves the bill), that much more confusion can be added to the mess. Who's shutting down anyway? Who's staying with analog for a little while longer, but not until June 12th? Will stations even have the decency to let people know what the plans are? I can hear Stan Laurel saying to Congress...........Here's another fine mess you've gotten us into.


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

reddice said:


> Actually it is 698MHz spectrum.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/700_MHz_wireless_spectrum_auction

...yes, through 806MHz...and referred to by the FCC as the "700MHz spectrum" in this case.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Pepster said:


> It might be more of an issue in the larger metropolitan areas where there are many more channels, so the potential for a conflict arising is much greater. Here, among other things, so called channel 55 is supposedly moving to Channel 47. The problem there is Telemundo network is still at Channel 47 so they have to move also. I was looking forward to doing that OTA channel scan on transition day just to see how things would fall out.
> 
> Now, with what's going on in Congress (provided, the House of Representatives also approves the bill), that much more confusion can be added to the mess. Who's shutting down anyway? Who's staying with analog for a little while longer, but not until June 12th? Will stations even have the decency to let people know what the plans are? I can hear Stan Laurel saying to Congress...........Here's another fine mess you've gotten us into.


Again, the DTV Delay Act will not affect who gets to use what "Channel Name" as that is all hidden from most users. Channel 47 will continue to get to call themselves Channel 47 even if their digital frequency is channel something else.

Cheers,
Tom


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## reddice (Feb 18, 2003)

Channel 47 WNJU real channel is channel 36. It is staying on channel 36 so channel 55 WLNY which is moving to channel 47 won't be affected.

I can't get WLNY digital at all and I probably still won't be able to get it when it moves to channel 47. WNJU I have no problem picking up even though it is one of the farthest stations in NJ. Stations closer in NYC only 4 miles from the ESB I have more trouble picking up.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

This question also came up at AVSForum ... with a slightly different answer:


scooper said:


> There are rules laid down - but they don't have a choice
> 
> Station that had an analog station - must always refer to them selves as their old channel number


Generally yes ... The default is the analog channel number. I don't see an FCC rule that prohibits use of the digital number.



> new station in area, they got assigned old analog station' RF channel - they have to choose another number that is not in use for that DMA. If the new station is assigned an RF channel that was NOT previously use - they use their RFchannel number.


Getting an old analog station's channel would give the station the number matching that station's digital assignment. Say channel 16 analog is post-transition channel 42. When the next channel 16 comes to town they can't use "16.1" ... they use "42.1".

Picking just any unused number isn't an option.
(Per Trip in VA over at AVSForum.)


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## Pepster (Oct 29, 2008)

reddice said:


> Channel 47 WNJU real channel is channel 36. It is staying on channel 36 so channel 55 WLNY which is moving to channel 47 won't be affected.
> 
> I can't get WLNY digital at all and I probably still won't be able to get it when it moves to channel 47. WNJU I have no problem picking up even though it is one of the farthest stations in NJ. Stations closer in NYC only 4 miles from the ESB I have more trouble picking up.


I like you haven't been able to do the OTA thing to get Channel 55, but only watch it through DirecTV. I'm pondering something. Back in the 70's as a teen, in the ENY area of Brooklyn, I lived in an apartment on what was equal to the 14th floor. I was able to with simple rabbit airs connected to the TV to pick up Channels 17 (Phillies) and Channel 29 (Flyers) as clear as a bell as if they were N.Y.C. stations. I'm pondering what my OTA possibilities would have been if digital television existed then or what I might be able to pick up now if I still lived there.


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

Stuart Sweet said:


> If a new station is allocated to use VHF channel 10 (which I think is impossible as that part of the spectrum is being auctioned, I think)...


You might want to drop a note to WSMV in Nashville about this. Their digital signal is currently on 10 and will remain there after the shutdown of their analog signal on 4.


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## Ira Lacher (Apr 24, 2002)

Do you mean the analog shutdown now scheduled for June -- no, September -- no, January 2010 -- no, . . . 

LOL


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Ira Lacher said:


> Do you mean the analog shutdown now scheduled for June -- no, September -- no, January 2010 -- no, . . .
> 
> LOL


As of this morning is still scheduled for February 17/18 2009. 

(And my personal belief is most stations will still flip on that date even if the current bill is passed.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> As of this morning is still scheduled for February 17/18 2009.


And probably as of tomorrow morning too. The House is going to be discussing the economic stimulus plan today; probably to the exclusion of everything else.


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