# The CW audio issue



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I have recorded a Penn and Teller Fool Us and Illusionist shows.
I am finding them recorded in DD but only coming out of the left and right channels.

I went to the station and it is happening on all the shows.

Am I alone in this?


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

I recorded and watched _Fool Us_ and it definitely had audio problems even though DVR was set to 2 ch PCM at the time. The volume seemed to keep varying and "pulsing" up and down. Could be a CW, local or "import" issue, as this is an imported show. (I also noticed the picture varied from smooth to choppy, but that may have just been "artistic choice" of the producers.)

At any rate, I don't think it's any problem w/the DVR. However, it bears checking out whether it's a local or DirecTV issue, especially if it's affecting all shows. Most shows from CW that I record (not since last normal season) have had no DD or audio issues up to this point.


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## Supramom2000 (Jun 21, 2007)

I've had problems with CW audio all year. I don't use my surround sound except when watching movies, so this is on their prime time programming. I have to crank our TV up higher than any other channel and I found that the DTV subtitles didn't work either. And background noise is much louder than the dialogue.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Supramom2000 said:


> I've had problems with CW audio all year. I don't use my surround sound except when watching movies, so this is on their prime time programming. I have to crank our TV up higher than any other channel and I found that the DTV subtitles didn't work either. And background noise is much louder than the dialogue.


I will send a complaint to Directv. I really wanted to watch the Penn and Teller, but it is just unwatchable.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

It could be the network, or the program. I think CW sends DD 5.1, as do the other big nets and most big cable stations. But the original content has to be 5.1 in most cases. This show is from 2011 so it may never have been anything other than 2.0. But one would assume that the other content would be 5.1, unless you are in a small market.

So, it could be the station. Most top-50 market stations use post processing to simulate 5.1 on local and syndicated content, and pass 5.1 on network content, but if the network slides in a 2.0 show, that will be 2.0. But again, other content should be 5.1 for most markets. Smaller markets may have not gotten around to building out the 5.1 quite yet.

Most stations even in the top 10 markets do not have 5.1 on syndicated or local content, and using post-proc simulation prevents the DD light from going off and on every time they go to a local break, plus the audio does not collapse to 2.0, and it also prevents a momentary mute while the downmix in your TV, STB, or AVR changes gears between 2.0 and 5.1. Due to the CALM act, many even smaller stations have made the purchase of post-proc equipment in the last couple of years to achieve that. But some stations send only a 2.0 version all the time, even if the network feed is 5.1.

I would call the station and ask for the Chief Engineer.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

The Portland OR CW affiliate has had problematic audio as long as I can remember. Back when I had several HR20 DVRs with the off air capability I would record CW programming on both the sat feed on one unit and the terrestrial feed on another. Both had frequent audio drops, strange electronic noise bursts, and other annoying effects. Frequently its baseline audio was a ton louder that the adjacent channels as well. For a time the terrestrial feed was less objectionable, then it switched. It is vastly better than a few years ago but still has moments of missing key dialog points. This is consistent across DVR platforms it is evident that it is from the program feed.

I used to believe it was the local broadcaster but I suspect it's farther reaching than that.

Don "and you can't blame *that* on the Bossa Nova" Bolton


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Well, I am having a long going battle with my local CBS station and their constant audio issues.
And I have decided not to muddy the waters with the CW. I have a hard enough time steering them away from my equipment.
It is one show that I may be able to get somewhere else one day.
This CBS fight has been going on for 5 years on and off.
I am afraid if I mention a second trouble, my complaints will fall on deaf ears.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

armophob said:


> Well, I am having a long going battle with my local CBS station and their constant audio issues.
> And I have decided not to muddy the waters with the CW. I have a hard enough time steering them away from my equipment.
> It is one show that I may be able to get somewhere else one day.
> This CBS fight has been going on for 5 years on and off.
> I am afraid if I mention a second trouble, my complaints will fall on deaf ears.


CBS is definitely the worst for audio dropouts. It is so bad that I think I am learning to read lips or just fill in the blank spots with whatever I feel like should have been there.


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## Supramom2000 (Jun 21, 2007)

In Spokane, I believe that CBS has some ownership of the CW channel. At the very least, they share the same local news program.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Interesting notations regarding CBS. I have been in contact (well OK I sent their engineering honcho) numerous complaints about a subject I noted in these forums I referred to as "sub-woofer flatulence" finally it abated but occasionally it returns fortunately not as overbearing as before. Simply put the sub-woofer would emit a bottom of the range series of thumps as if an LFE "shake room" effect were engaged but was always during times of just mild dialog and not connected with explosions or other audio events that might have such an LFE burst in the mix. These bursts were below the frequency levels carried in TV speakers and I suspect below many subs but my dual 15inch cone Klipsch was downright annoying when viewing CBS programming. Similarly the dual cone Kipsch 10s and the Polk 12 were nearly as obnoxious.

It was evident on three 7.1 systems, a YSP-5100 with 12 inch Polk sub, and even on a Creative Inspire 5700 5.1 system. I could get it off air or off the sat programming so I pursued the local engineer executive that NEVER responded to my emails although after the third one detailing where in programming time sequence and other details, it did finally go away.

I did not like that my calls were not responded to (that's how I knew whom to email) nor emails responded to. I'm hoping it was just a local buckethead being a putz.

Don "Pho-King Buckethead " Bolton


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Yep here in the Portland OR DMA it is the same. The 11:00 o-clock news at 10:00

Don "some mediocrity ensues" Bolton



Supramom2000 said:


> In Spokane, I believe that CBS has some ownership of the CW channel. At the very least, they share the same local news program.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

There is a way to complain that has teeth, which is the CALM act. The FCC can fine stations for audio that is not consistent in level, assuming they have a few customer complaints.

But one of the things that stations use to be compliant is a leveling algorithm, and in most cases stations do not send LFE at all or do not simulate LFE on local content, because earlier versions of the algorithm, still in use in the majority of TV stations, only can level up to 5 channels, so LFE is discarded instead.

So while the "thumps" may not originate from the audio, that does not mean they are not being induced by the transmission process. When we are talking about frequencies below 50 Hz, we are getting close to DC, and even simple grounding problems can manifest like this.

Audio is actually more complicated than video. The simple fact that it took 75 years of television broadcasting before an effective method was found to control audio levels properly is a testament to that statement. Couple that with the fact that more emphasis is placed on video by the local Engineers, and there are a lot of things that can fall through the cracks.

CW stations are notorious for bad audio and dropouts. The fact that CW and CBS stations often use equipment different from other stations may indicate some difficulty with early versions of their equipment for dealing with AC-3 audio, equipment that may still be in use in many cases.

BTW, that P&T show is prretty good.


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

CW DD5.1 Seems working properly at the moment, (_Supernatural_ repeat). I've got _Fool Us_ set to record tomorrow and will check the audio again. Hopefully not as bad as "premier."

On a side note, P&T have a new "reality" series on SyFy starting 8/19, _Wizard Wars_. Promo looked interesting. I've always enjoyed P&T, especially_ P&T Bulls*** _that used to be on Showtime.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Your notations on the LFE (or lack thereof) makes sense in that many stations never cause the "auto on" subs to engage during viewing. (light stays red). A grounding problem would be a good possible cause of what I kept hearing. It had no correlation to the actual programming. My real issue was the lack of response from the station. Even a boilerplate reply would have been something. As it was I kept calling and emailing until the problem went away.

Thanks for the insight.

Don "so much for my sunspots theory  " Bolton


TomCat said:


> There is a way to complain that has teeth, which is the CALM act. The FCC can fine stations for audio that is not consistent in level, assuming they have a few customer complaints.
> 
> But one of the things that stations use to be compliant is a leveling algorithm, and in most cases stations do not send LFE at all or do not simulate LFE on local content, because earlier versions of the algorithm, still in use in the majority of TV stations, only can level up to 5 channels, so LFE is discarded instead.
> 
> ...


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

That's unfortunate, Lug.

The stations I work for are adamant about responding to customers for technical issues. One of the negative fallout aspects of the ATSC standards and SMPTE standards for digital is that they are "open", meaning there is no strict recipe outlined. While that is good because as technology moves forward we find new and better ways of fulfilling the same tasks, there are sometimes outliers, meaning that there can be problems with reception that the station will not even know about until a customer complains.

It has always been standard for stations to monitor their return signals, and the FCC encourages this. But it our demodulator does not react to some tiny typo or something missing in PSIP, for instance, while your STB goes to a black screen because of it, we want to know. And that is a real-world example of what I am talking about.

That said, monitoring of DD is sometimes not the greatest, even in large-market stations. It is also not even well-understood. TV stations used to have mature technology (so mature and therefore so boring that I got out of the business for 12 years), but with the advent of digital and now HD, technology in TV is really on the cutting edge, and it is much more challenging to keep up with. And due to the internet, and Wall St. and the mortgage industry sabotaging the economy, we have half the staff we had to do twice the work, and little time for training. This only gets worse as you drop below the top 20 markets.

But enough whining. At least it is interesting once again.

If a TV station blows you off on a technical issue, I would be inclined to go over their heads to whatever corporate engineering they are governed by (virtually all stations are owned by groups or media corporations; the Ma & Pa stations have been edged out). Let things roll down hill from there.


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

The second episode was much better. Seemed to me CW was using DD5.1 "carrier" but the audio was mono. At least it didn't seem to waiver up and down and pulse, like the first episode.


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

Well, the audio on _Fool Us_ this week was fine up until about 35 minutes into the program. Went back to the "premiere" episode problems all over again, and even affected a few of the commercials. (I suspect someone at "Master Control" is sleeping on the job and volume-limiting firmware is kicking in.) Last week's episode did not exhibit the volume-pumping problems.


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