# Can we expect a straight answer from Dish: re HDMI failure?



## JMikeF

It is apparent that the VIP622 has an issue that is affecting a number of folks - failed HDMI ports. OK, we can use the Component ports (I am) that could introduce D/A conversion artifacts, and what happens if the broadcast down-rez flag is turned on?

I've held off on replacing my VIP622 because I've yet to hear a consistant message from Dish concerning this issue. What does it take for Dish to realize the problem?

I look to this forum because I understand it provides a direct link to Dish, and I've tried to be on my best behavior, but frankly I disappointed in the lack of information.

Here's what I expect:


An acknowledgement from Dish that they are aware of HDMI ports failing on numerous VIP622 units


An explanation of the root cause, or what they think could be the root cause


A process to fix it - either via a sw download or swap.
Is this too much to expect, from a customer? I think not


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## Ron Barry

I can understand your frustration. I also am in the same boat with one of my 622s. This issue personally is near and dear to me. I actually went through all the posts looking for a common thread myself but was not successful. Based on the switch test I did with my 622s, I requested a swap out since the the problem followed the 622 with the bad HDMI port when I swapped the boxes out. If you your 622 HDMI failed during a mid software release and based on other reports of a swap out working it is something to persue in my opinion. 

Now on to your expectations. First off, thanks for keeping the tone level moderate and for keeping your post within the forum guidelines. I know issues like this can be frustrating and since I am experiencing the same issue I do feel your pain and concerns. 

As for Dish's response, in my opinion your expectations are reasonable. Since Dish Engineering does visit these forums and with the number of posts regarding this issue I am confident they are aware of this issue. As to the root cause, Well I personally don't have exposure to know if a root cause has been identified.


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## dude2

I emailed [email protected], and asked about the distorted audio out on some channels with the hdmi output and got a email back stating that it was their number 1 problem and are working on solving it. This was a month ago, so it must be a super problem.


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## rice0209

This issue has been extremely important to me as well. I suffered through the 921 for almost two yeasr investing $650 into that machine (I am so glad I didn't buy earlier and pay $1000!). I had four of them traded in for other refurbished models. The last time I switched my 921 out, I finally got a dish CSR to admit that the 921 was a problematic receiver. 

The 921 was the main reason I jumped at the 622. I know they had far fewer problems with the 942, but I think everyone knew that Dish needed to take another big step forward and get farther away from their older HD technology. I was so excited at the idea of mpeg 4 (more HD channels!), a true hdmi solution for video and audio output, and most importantly, a more stable unit. 

I think out of all those things i was really happy with an HDMI output because my new projector, a Hitachi HDPJ52 which was giving beautiful pictures out of my 921 should only get better with the newer and improved 622. 

Although the component output works okay with my projector, the image does not truly shine until I get a true digital solution. For some reason, my projector was designed with perfection when it gets an all digital signal vs analog. 

I have never, from day one had my hdmi work and I have tried everything I can think of to fix this issue. A swap out did not fix the problem as well. I truly hope that dish gets this problem rectified, and if they cannot, finds a way to make it up to us who took their upgrade deal, which in my opinion, was there "sorry we made you suffer the 921" trade in program.

I like dish a lot and hope not to have to give up on them as I do believe that they are truly the best.


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## Stewart Vernon

I have seen, on some other forums, issues with some of the new HD-DVD players and HDMI as well.

While I am not taking Dish off the hook completely here... there is a nagging thought in the back of my head telling me that maybe this HDMI thing wasn't completely well-thought out before the industry tried to roll it out as a standard.

I would not be surprised at all to find out that independent of whatever problems Dish is having that there is a general problem with HDMI compatibility across the board with TVs, DVD-player/recorders, and pretty much anything else designed around those interfaces.


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## Ron Barry

Rice0209:

Personally I think what you might be seeing is different that what others are seeing. If you have had two receivers and both HDMI did not work, I would start to look at other reason. There might be an incompatibility with the 622 with the current software rev in your case. 

Have you tried another device the with an HDMI interface to see if you can get HDMI to work period? DId you try different resolutions from the 622? I am sure you have tried everything you can think of, but I suggest trying to rule out as much external variables as possible.


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## motrac

Dish is not being honest with this issue. It has nothing to do with the receivers
software, this is a hardware problem with both the 211 and 622.
THey keep saying that it's software related that way we all sit around waiting
for a magic fix to be downloaded to the receiver and not insist that Dish replace
their defective receivers.
Too many people lost their HDMI's and didn't take any software download.
Mine was fine then as I was watching a program it died! No software download was involved!
It's time we all got together and demanded new receivers, once it starts costing
them money it'll get fixed right quick!


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## brucewilsonpa

motrac said:


> Too many people lost their HDMI's and didn't take any software download. Mine was fine then as I was watching a program it died! No software download was involved!


My less than 2-week old VIP-622 was working fine until I turned it on to discover neither the HDMI nor the component connections worked any longer -- seems like a hardware problem to me.

When I contact E* tech support the gal I spoke with told me the computer "solution" described it as a software problem (so they are aware of it) but she also told me the instructions to her are "not to exchange the unit" -- I had to argue and finally got her to agree to replace the unit, although she openly stated I could experience the same problem in the new unit (which, based on discussions here I recognize is likely).

I share the concern over E* focusing on a software solution -- I don't see how the suddenness of this happening can be attributed to software -- seems too much like the typical hardware problem. My VIP-622 runs pretty hot and although I've tried to ensure there is adequate space around it for ventilation that would seem to me to be a more logical path to explore (I did not check to see if my HDMI cable was running hot, although when I fiddled with the connector on the DVR end the connector was hot, but that might have been due to the DVR itself, not the cable.).


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## rice0209

Ron,

My situation is somewhat interesting. I have an onkyo A/V receiver that has HDMI inputs/output. With my 921, i converted the DVI to hdmi and ran that into the back of my onkyo a/v receiver. Then I ran an hdmi cable from the onkyo to my projector. Worked like a charm. In fact, anything I use in my system, x-box 360, dvd player, whatever, all hooks up to the back of my onkyo and is then upconverted to hdmi and sent out to the projector in hdmi.

My 622 hooked up in hdmi has never given me any signal to the projector. Same goes with the replacement unit. 

I thought that maybe taking the onkyo receiver out of the equation and hooking the projector directly to the 622 would fix it, but i did not get any signal to the projector from the 622 with the original or the replacement unit. I have dabbled with every option on the projector, receiver, and what limited choices there are on the 622 (mainly resolutions) and nothing has ever given me a picture.

I am currently hooked up via component to the back of the onkyo receiver, upconverting that to hdmi and running that to my projector. It works, but its not as pretty as my 921 when it was hooked up dvi and actually working.

I will check what software version the replacement 622 is on and report back.


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## DonLandis

I posted elsewhere, but will repeat here that my HDMI connection remains good and it is not hot at all. The hottest part of the 622 is the top cover and that is just warm to the touch or about 94 degrees F. average. I use a fan to circulate air around the 622. I'm now one month old and have yet to take any software upgrade since installation. I, too feel this is a hardware failure and it does seem reasonable to suspect Dish is telling us to sit tight to save on the cost of replacements. One has to look at all the statistics on this that we have available. There is very little if any evidence to suggest it is software. I've only seen specualtion from a few software experts who are capable of imagining scenarios that could cause a failure of this sort. I have not seen any postings where a person had a failed HDMI and got a replacement and that failed too. Finally, for a CSR to refuse to replace a 622 and ask you to wait on a software upgrade makse no sense. That CSR must be a moron since the failure of both the component and the HDMI leaves you with no picture. I would have said to the CSR- If you are refusing to replace the defective hardware, please credit my account 100% and transfer me to your supervisor. You can't argue with a numbskull, try someone else. When they hear complete credits and account cancellation and the reason is they can't supply you with a working leased receiver, then you should get all your money back. Hope you were on CC autopayy as then you can enter the CC company too . Trust me, you will get what's right but not from the numbskull CSR. 

Just as we all discovered the HDMI failure in the TIVO was hardware as in a MFG defect easily fixed, I'd bet these 622's are all hardware issues as well. They just don't want to deal with the thousands that are defective, especially if they can convince you to use the component. The excessive heat in that area seems indicative of the impending failure. That excessive heat cannot be a good thing!


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## wingnut1

My HDMI failed. Only I determined that it was the HDMI port on my television not the one in the 622. Good thing the TV was still under warranty because the part alone was $175.


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## welchwarlock

My HDMI port worked for 3 weeks, then died. They exchanged the receiver, and It has worked ever since.

If your port was working, then failed, get a replacement receiver.

If your port never worked, get a replacement receiver. If it is still bad, your TV has an interface problem and requires a software update of either your TV or your receiver.

My Two Bits.

WW


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## wje

motrac said:


> Dish is not being honest with this issue. It has nothing to do with the receivers
> software, this is a hardware problem with both the 211 and 622.
> THey keep saying that it's software related that way we all sit around waiting
> for a magic fix to be downloaded to the receiver and not insist that Dish replace
> their defective receivers.


Deja vu! A lot of us current and ex-D* users had exactly the same problems with the HR10-250. I went through three of them. Fortunately, HDMI is working just fine on my 622.

The real cause of the problems is likely to be similar to what was wrong with the HR10. There was a hardware problem that affected some users, a separate software problem that affected others, and a whole different set of issues that weren't the fault of the HR10 at all, but were problems with the TV's HDMI implementation.

D* gave me and many others the same runaround, first claiming they had never heard of the problem, then claiming it was a software problem, and finally fixing the hardware and software.

To be fair to both D* and E*, given all the permutations of the issue, it could well take the engineers a while to sort it out.

As mentioned in an earlier post, a significant amount of blame lies in the HDMI spec itself. It's very complex, especially when HDCP is involved, and there are no real compatibility tests specified or required. It's all because of the copyright holders being terrified of allowing any access to the HD bitstream outside of their control. Most of the HDMI compatibility problems come from this. There is a (again, very complex) handshake that goes on between connected devices to authenticate them as 'trusted'. Producers can even add revocation info in the data stream to revoke connection privileges for devices that have been found to be compromised or hacked. Talk about your studio paranoia. This means that someone can decide your $5000 Foobaz scaler is not trustworthy, and effectively turn it into a brick by revoking authorization on-the-fly.

Most amusingly, shortly after the HDCP encryption spec was finished, some researchers showed how to completely compromise it in an undetectable way with relatively little effort; look on wikipedia for HDCP. So, we're suffering so the content providers can not protect themselves in a complex way that is useless. Figures.

The HDMI 2 (officially, 1.3) spec is out, and it addresses a number of issues, such as compliance test requirements, better sound sync, and adds even more complex encryption. (HDMI/HDCP encrypts the bytestream using 56 bit encryption; if I remember correctly, 1.3 goes to 128 bit. Jeez!)


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## brucewilsonpa

In the FWIW category: Talked with an E* CSR last night as I activated my replacement VIP-622. He sounded reasonably knowledgeable and was immediately familiar with the "famous" VIP-622 HDMI problem. Insisted it IS software-related and said they have a software fix being tested. I was skeptical pointing out that the suddenness of these failures and the number of failures that seem to just happen around 2-4 weeks after first using the 622 all point to hardware problems. He agreed it might seem this way but seemed convinced (from whatever source of knowledge he has) the problem is tied to software that "gets confused" with the HDMI port signals and "shuts itself off". Interesting! He sounded more knowledgeable of the actual technical aspects than most CSR I've spoken with, so maybe he's got some "truth" here. If what he said about software fix being tested is accurate there's hope (although who knows when it will finish testing)!


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## rice0209

I am very confused about this problem in general.

It was my understanding that Dish subbed out the production of these units. I know my 921 was a JVC product. I am not sure what my 622 now is because i never took the time to look.

The reason i say this is that it seems as if Dish is trying to fix the problem themselves. This would make sense if they designed the unit completely. I guess I am wondering if the unit was completely designed by someone else, say JVC, or if the hardware was one company and Dish did the software.

If it was a hardware issue only, i would expect the manufacturer of the hardware to be forced to resolve the issue quickly, more than likely having to recall the units. It does seem software related since many people's issues seem to coincide with software releases. I am sure though, that with the many different versions of hdmi in the market place, that there are some users who have problems that are hardware related between their tv and the 622.

I still wonder though if this all goes back to the port being called an "HDTV" port rather than an "HDMI" port. To me it seems like dish did not want to pay the big bucks and maybe skirted the design a little bit. If that was the case, the HDMI folk would not let them put their tag on it unless it conformed completely. I guess though that the hardware could be to spec but maybe there was a dollar premium to getting the "HDMI" tag on the 622's front cover.


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## motrac

Even though it'll void my warranty tomorrow I"M going to open up my 622 and
do some testing on my non-working HDMI port.
I'm getting real tired of not getting what I paid Dishnetwork for, that is a fully working VIP622.


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## rice0209

As petty as dish was with me and my numerous 921's if I were you I would not risk screwing up getting your free replacement from dish.

They treated me and many others like crap through out that all too long history of the 921, and I guess they kind of bended a little bit by giving us the reabate on upgrading to the 622.

If you have automatic billing, I can assure you that if you ever send that unit back, and they see you have tampered with it that they will automatically charge your bank account or credit card with the full price of the receiver.

I have never done auto bill pay with Dish because two of my friends both had dish charge them unfairly without notification. At least if you don't have auto bill pay they have to ask for the money rather than you trying to get that money back from them.


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## garhow

I bought a 622 a couple of weeks ago and so far it's been working fine. Today I bought an HDMI cable, anxious to compare the picture quality. I plugged it in and no signal on that port on the TV. I have a Samsung DLP projection set. I know several have reported that HDMI worked for awhile and then stopped working. In my case, it never worked at all. Anybody else experience this problem? Should I contact Dish?


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## Presence

garhow, did you bother to read any of this thread at all?


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## rice0209

Garhow, 

Your experience is extremely similiar too mine as stated above. In read this forum regularly, i have seen that many Samsung DLP owners have had HDMI problems. I am not saying that it is definitely a problem with the hdmi technology that samsung uses, but from what i have observed there does seem to be a common thread with samsungs and no hdmi signal.

I have a Hitachi HDPJ52 projector that has also never gotten a picture with HDMI. I have tried every possible thing I can think of and every soulution that posters on this board have suggested with no luck. 

To me, this seems like a situation where we can only be patient and hope dish finds a solution.


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## Taha24

HDMe said:


> I have seen, on some other forums, issues with some of the new HD-DVD players and HDMI as well.
> 
> While I am not taking Dish off the hook completely here... there is a nagging thought in the back of my head telling me that maybe this HDMI thing wasn't completely well-thought out before the industry tried to roll it out as a standard.
> 
> I would not be surprised at all to find out that independent of whatever problems Dish is having that there is a general problem with HDMI compatibility across the board with TVs, DVD-player/recorders, and pretty much anything else designed around those interfaces.


Actually, the HDMI problem the HD DVD player was having has already been fixed. It was an issue with Samsungs DLPs because what was happening was they both were waiting for the other to be active to send or recieve the signal. It was Toshiba's fault for putting that feature into their players and they released a quick firmware update to fix it.

HDMI specs are fine, Dish has just done a horrible job of implementing it.


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## rice0209

I guess it depends which HDMI spec you are talking about. I know of HDMI 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and now 2.0 I believe was just announced the other day.

I think the problem is that the HDMI spec is changing too often. This is common with the newer technologies and its good they they are continually developing this into the end all-be all solution for A/V transmission and reception.

It just causes great amounts of difficulties with companies trying to incorporate HDMI into their products.

I too agree that HDMI is a great solution and again wonder if this whole problem is a result of dish getting cheap and trying to avoid paying a lot of money for a true HDMI spec. I get this idea because it is called an "HDTV" port and there is no mention of HDMI in any dish manual or on the product itself.


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## wje

Taha24 said:


> HDMI specs are fine, Dish has just done a horrible job of implementing it.


Actually, the specs aren't fine. That's why there have been so many revisions. It's very difficult for manufacturers to guarantee compatibility with all other manufacturers, because the spec (in various incarnations) doesn't tightly define all the operating conditions, and doesn't have a mandatory certification process that's effective. If you do a bit of net searching, you'll find that just about every manufacturer has had interoperability problems of one kind or another. There have even been some popular press articles about what a semi-disaster HDMI has been.

Realize that HDMI/HDCP wasn't invented for our benefit; all it really gives us over digital DVI is the ability to carry the audio channels over the same cable. It's primarily a way for the copyright holders to prevent unauthorized copying. Much of the complexity comes from that, and much of it wasn't thought out very well (see my earlier post about the HDCP embarrasment).

Many of the problems have been addressed in the newest spec, but that's not going to do anyone that currently has ANY manufacturer's equipment any good.

All that said, the 622 works just fine with my Sony, as did my D* HR10-250. Go over to tivocommunity and you'll see exactly the same kinds of complaints about the HR10.

None of this is to say the 622 might not have some HDMI issues itself. But, it's absolutely not a one-way street!


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## rice0209

wje,

I agree with you except that I do not lump HDMI and HDCP together. HDMI was needed over DVI for the simplicity of the connection.

We all love the fact that USB can do so many different things with computers. Its flexibility is what makes it special along with how easy it is to connect.

HDMI is following in that ideology. The increased bandwidth, ease of connection, and terrific looking future make it a plus over DVI. HDMI's name has been tainted because of HDCP and the problems with operating it. I believe that if it weren't for HDCP, HDMI would not have been rushed and maybe we would be seeing less of a need for so many revisions since they would take more time and develop it in a more controlled fashion. HDCP aside, HDMI is a bright spot in the future of technology.


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## pbrown

My HDMI went out right before L359 came out. I 've been reading all the posts, so I waited a while to call Dish to complain. When 360 came and did nothing, I went ahead and called. I spoke to someone in Tech support. She didn't make me do all the rebooting and stuff, and she is sending me a replacement 622. A pleasant experience overall, except that I do have to pay the 15 bucks for shipping. Anyway, I did recently get another HDMI device, and was able to prove that the cable and TV worked, so that may have made it easier to convince them to replace it for me.


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## rice0209

pay $15 for shipping?

This is new to me. I had mine replaced at the end of June and they didn't charge me. they have never charged me for shipping on any of the three 921 replacements I had.

I wonder if they are trying to recoup some money with all these 622's being replaced with HDMI problems. Kinda rediculous though since it is not our fault what so ever.


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## rice0209

I started thinking more about the question that JmikeF asked initially, which was can we expect a straight answer, and it made me want to look into it a bit more.

I have heard more than several posters say that they have called a dish CSR and have been told that "Dish knows of the problem and is working on the solution, etc, etc..." I have been told this myself twice. The first time i was told the next software update would fix it, (L357) and the second time was when the CSR replaced my 921 after L359 also did not fix the problem.

I looked on Dish's website and pulled up the tech portal. When I looked at the problems listed for the 622, there was nothing about the "HDTV" port not working. I also could not find anything on the site that talked about this problem. Just from the number of people on this board who have had trouble with the HDMI port, I would assume it would be somewhat of a high priority, yet it was not a listed problem on their website and I could find no mention of the issue.

I don't think we will ever get an "official" answer about this problem. Dish would not want to admit to a failure of one of the key components. My bet is that they will fix the problem and act like it never happened. 

My experience with the 921 proves to me that dish is a very proud company and does not like to let down its guard. This is good as it keeps them competitive, but is also bad as it relates to customer service. 

The bottom line here is that while we may get a CSR to give us a straight answer, Dish as a company will never put out a press release stating their error. It would take some sort of legal action for them to even acknowledge the problem.

I still think it is hillarious when you call Dish and get a CSR who gives you the line "We haven't had any problems with the VIP 622" or some load of crap like that. I understand that this person could be out of the loop, but you should never make definitive statements like that to a paying customer. It alsways comes across as an attempt to place blame back on the user.


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## lujan

rice0209 said:


> ... My bet is that they will fix the problem and act like it never happened...


My guess is that is will never get fixed and they'll come out with a new receiver and then charge us to upgrade to the new receiver. Sound familiar?


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## rice0209

yes, that sounds all to familiar. I guess I was trying to give Dish the benefit of the doubt in hopes that they turned a new leaf.


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## JigSawMan

Just to chime in, the HDMI port failed on my 3 month old 622 last week. After doing all the normal troubleshooting, I called in yesterday and the second CSR I spoke with confirmed it was a known problem, probably hardware related. I realize the CSRs may not be the best source on what the problem really is, but he seemed to have spoken with other 622 owners about this issue. 

Other things of note from the conversation:

1. He did NOT mention a $15 charge for shipping.

2. He was very specific about "If it appears to be mistreatment of the equipment, you will be billed the full price of the receiver." He stated it more than once and asked me to confirm I understood that. 

3. He asked the model number of the television I had hooked to the 622.


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## rice0209

Yeah, most of us on here have reported that the CSR's will admit it, which is a big step for the Dish folks as I only got one csr to admit that the 921 was a piece of crap and i talked to plenty of CSR's who just played dumb.

The bigger win would be getting dish to officially announce the problem and at some point, offer a solution. I think the solution is still a ways off because dish does not seem to fully know what the problem is and why it is happening. There have been four different software updates since i got mine and none of them have fixed the problem for me.

Thats interesting about the mistreatment of units. I am sure that they have had some frustrated customers break theirs in an attempt to get a new one so they are adding that in. 

I know mine was not mistreatment because i am on my second 622 and have never gotten an hdmi signal nor have i ever mishandled my units as i know how sensitive my 921 was to any kind of vibration while running. I treat my units with kid gloves after that mess.


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## Mark Lamutt

I can guarantee that if enough 622s have to get replaced, something will be done to fix the HDMI port problem. 1 out of every 100 or 1000 sold isn't that big of a deal. 1 out of 10 is.


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## ebaltz

Mark Lamutt said:


> I can guarantee that if enough 622s have to get replaced, something will be done to fix the HDMI port problem. 1 out of every 100 or 1000 sold isn't that big of a deal. 1 out of 10 is.


True, however, how many people with 622s are using HDMI? Lets say 100 owners have a 622, probably only 25 even know what HDMI is. So if 5 of them return their boxes because of defective HDMI, Dish might say well see only 5 out of 100 needed to be replaced, so that's not that big of a deal, but maybe an additional 15 would have also failed had the owners actually used them, so the problem would then be 20 of 100 failing, or 1 in 5, which as you said would definately be a big issue. So Dish might not be aware of how widespread it really is. As for mine, I use a HDMI to DVI and haven't had any issues.


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## ebaltz

lujan said:


> My guess is that is will never get fixed and they'll come out with a new receiver and then charge us to upgrade to the new receiver. Sound familiar?


Yeah if I had to bet that is what I would say will happen as well. I smell a 642 coming in our future.


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## pbrown

rice0209 said:


> pay $15 for shipping?
> 
> This is new to me. I had mine replaced at the end of June and they didn't charge me. they have never charged me for shipping on any of the three 921 replacements I had.


She tried to get me to buy the extended warranty (2.99 a month?) and said shipping could be waived if I bought that. I declined for now. I tried to talk her into free shipping considering I spend over $110 a month with them, but no luck. It strikes me as pretty cheap on their part, but I guess I'll just live with it.


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## CABill

It isn't the amount you spend as much as how DISH gets the money. The CC Autopay the CSRs always mention will usually get shipping charges waived, even at less than half of your $110/month.


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## Lucabratsi

pbrown said:


> She tried to get me to buy the extended warranty (2.99 a month?) and said shipping could be waived if I bought that. I declined for now. I tried to talk her into free shipping considering I spend over $110 a month with them, but no luck. It strikes me as pretty cheap on their part, but I guess I'll just live with it.


 I have two 622's and use the HDMI on both. Both have failed. I spoke to a "tech2" and he mentioned a systemic hardware issue. Not fixed yet. I have the $5.99 home protection plan and it is highly recommended. No questions, 3 day replacement delivery, and return postage paid. If you have to talk to someone about an 622 issue, don't waist your time with a CSR. Go right to tech and press "0". If you are still getting nowhere, ask for a tech2. 
Overall the 622 is OK, and programing is great. The HD picture has alot more noise (grain) than the SA 8300 (Cablevision).  I have done a side by side comparison with a Dell 5100MP and a 13 foot screen.

Cheers,
Lucabratsi


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## Stewart Vernon

ebaltz said:


> True, however, how many people with 622s are using HDMI? Lets say 100 owners have a 622, probably only 25 even know what HDMI is. So if 5 of them return their boxes because of defective HDMI, Dish might say well see only 5 out of 100 needed to be replaced, so that's not that big of a deal, but maybe an additional 15 would have also failed had the owners actually used them, so the problem would then be 20 of 100 failing, or 1 in 5, which as you said would definately be a big issue. So Dish might not be aware of how widespread it really is. As for mine, I use a HDMI to DVI and haven't had any issues.


This is a very good point. Whenever I take the plunge and upgrade, I can't use the HDMI because I do not have an HDMI port on my HDTV. As one of the early adopters, I don't even have DVI on my HDTV... so I'm all component all the time!

If I got a ViP622 with a failing/failed HDMI port, I may not know for a very long time if ever... so it is entirely possible that there are a lot more in the field with HDMI problems that go undetected if people can't or don't use the port.


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## David_Levin

My two 622's were activated 4/13.

One HDMI port died last night (I think this is the 2nd time I've used the box since L360 - coincidence?). I tried two monitors and a soft reboot. DVI from the DVD player is working fine.

I haven't moved the box lately, so I'd be surprised if something suddenly broke lose.

Hmmm, there was a wild lightening storm in Denver the night before. Some fairly close strikes... Power was out for 20 mins. The 622 is on an UPS. The projector is not (There's not too many ups that are going to handle the current load of a projector, & I really don't want to hang an ups from the ceiling).

There's a Gefen 4:1 DVI switch between the projector and the 622. It's not on the UPS either. Perhaps a surge could have come through another device and blown the DVI (if so, I'd still consider the 622 DVI to not be sufficiently ESD protected).

I'll mess with it some more this weekend (hard reboot? factory reset? Different plug sequences?).

So I got around 3.5 months.

The randomness of this failure makes this hardware engineer think - electrical overstress resulting in eventual component failure.

I could ask for a replacement, but with the hassle of getting everything off the HDD it would sure be nice if Dish would come clean and let us know if we should wait for a potential hardware redesign.


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## rice0209

David Leven,

What kind of projector do you have that has such a load?

My hitachi draws around 300 watts and there are more than enough units that can handle that much power. I run an 810 watt APC UPS for my Hitachi HDPJ52 without a problem. 

It should list the consumption of the projector on the unit. It is usually right next to the recommended voltage. Unless you are running an old fashioned projector or some very high end projector that needs enoug light power for large venues, i don't see how you would need such a large UPS for it.


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## SonicBee777

Datapoints:

Approx 2.5 months on "E" model 622, HDMI is still working OK, with Sony SXRD TV. I have both HDMI and component hooked up from 622 to TV, to compare PQ. 

When 622 first arrived, HDMI was unusable due to cyclic picture-black screen-picture-black screen, etc. with cycle time approximately 3-4 seconds (pic-black-pic). I tried both HDMI ports on TV, and swapped HDMI cable end-for-end, no joy.

Although I doubted that the HDMI cable was the problem, it was the easiest thing to change out, so did that first. New cable, different manufacturer, about 3 feet shorter. That fixed it! Been working fine since then.

Question: When HDMI 1.3 is blessed, can it be implemented on existing 622s via a firmware upgrade, or will it require new HDMI "hardware" as well?


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## Ron Barry

:welcome_s SonicBee. Always good to see a neighbor join. 

Interesting data point and comments on a cable swap. How long was your cable and how long is it now? 

As to your question.. Not sure if anyone will be able to answer it. I sure can't.


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## wje

SonicBee777 said:


> Question: When HDMI 1.3 is blessed, can it be implemented on existing 622s via a firmware upgrade, or will it require new HDMI "hardware" as well?


I haven't gotten the full spec, so this is somewhat speculative.
1.3 adds and/or changes several things:

1) allows a new connector form-factor. Clearly, this won't be upgraded. But, it's optional; the existing connector will still be legitimate

2) adds interoperability and compliance mandatory requirements.

3) changes the encryption used for HDCP

4) increases the maximum bandwidth

1 doesn't affect the 622.

2 only indirectly affects the 622, but if E* won't do the compliance tests, they won't be able to say it's HDMI.

3 may or may not be an issue. The original spec allowed for a fully-hardware implementation. D*'s HR10-250 used a dedicated HDMI interface chip, and I would guess the 622 does also. This may or may not be in-circuit reprogrammable. If not, no luck.

4 doesn't make any immediate difference; the current HDMI has plenty of bandwidth. The increased bw limits are for future use.

So, this isn't really much of a concrete answer, but hopefully will give you an idea of the nature of the changes. I don't know if there is a backwards-compatibility requirement in 1.3, but I'd be surprised if there isn't. Even if the 622 can't be upgraded, it should still work with new 1.3 equipment (whenever that actually shows up).

PS - the standard isn't freely available. You have to be a member of the consortium to get a copy. Translation: it costs big bucks.


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## SonicBee777

Thanks very much for that informative reply, wje. That is the most I've seen yet about the new spec.


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## SonicBee777

Ron Barry said:


> :welcome_s SonicBee. Always good to see a neighbor join.
> 
> Interesting data point and comments on a cable swap. How long was your cable and how long is it now?
> 
> As to your question.. Not sure if anyone will be able to answer it. I sure can't.


The original (bad) cable was 10 feet, the replacement that still works is 6 feet. Neither my Walmart receipt nor the cable itself tells me the manufacturer, and the packaging is long gone.


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## Ron Barry

Sounds like a bad cable Sonic, I doubt there would be much difference in a 10 foot and 6ft cable.


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## bairdjc

Wow, all this talk of broken HDMI ports makes me want to TEST my HDMI ports at least before the warranty is up on the unit (I don't have or use HDMI on the unit... I don't even own a HDTV).


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## rice0209

it very well could be the cable although there have been several people who get hdmi problems, and when they unplug the cable and plug it back in, they get their signal back. It could either be a bad cable or you forced the handshake again and are lucky enough to have gotten the picture. If you tried the "bad" cable again and it did not work then you could be certain it was the cable.

This HDMI problem seems to have so many different facets and so many people are affected in different ways. It seems like there is just a multitude of problems with hdmi on the 622 right now.


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## SJ HART

The issue is not cables or handshakes. I have had two 622s lose HDMI on two different TVs.


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## harsh

bairdjc said:


> Wow, all this talk of broken HDMI ports makes me want to TEST my HDMI ports at least before the warranty is up on the unit (I don't have or use HDMI on the unit... I don't even own a HDTV).


If you have an LCD on a desktop computer with a DVI input, you could cobble together a HDMI to DVI cable to test the HDMI port.


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## motrac

Everyone of us that has a non-working HDMI port needs to get together
and pick the same day and time to call Dishnetwork and demand a new working receiver. And also e-mail the CEO.
That might get their attention!


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## David_Levin

I expect that I can get a new receiver if I call. But, it's such a pain to get the HDD cleared off.

I'd rather wait will Dish fixes the problem (or have they all ready?).

(Hence the topic of this thread)

I suppose they never will tell us. If the problem is fixed and announced they'd get sutck with a rash of people with functioning ports calling in to get the receivers swapped.

Though they could let us know an simultaneously announce an unlimited warranty on failed HDMI ports.


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## DonLandis

I'm guessing they will just release a new model (with the known 622 issues fixed but add a few new issues) and ask everyone to pay another $250 to upgrade their lease with an additional 3 year commitment! Why would they do it different than their SOP beginning with the 622.


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## pbrown

I received my replacement 622 on Friday and installed it last night. As expected, the HDMI works and looks great. My new one is hardware version "F". Hopefully this one will last. It is a PITA to get a new one installed when you have everything set up the way you like it, but I'm glad I have a unit that is actually working! 

If it dies, I'll post again.


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## lujan

DonLandis said:


> I'm guessing they will just release a new model (with the known 622 issues fixed but add a few new issues) and ask everyone to pay another $250 to upgrade their lease with an additional 3 year commitment! Why would they do it different than their SOP beginning with the 622.


That's exactly what I said. Read post #28 below or above depending on how you set up the forum.


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## GRever

My HDMI output has not worked for 3 Months. I waited for a software update to fix my problem. I got tired of waiting and asked customer service to send me a replacement. The replacement fixed the problem. I was told by the Tech that the HDMI output might fail again and that the problem will be fix in a software release scheduled for October. Asuming that the Tech is correct I have come to the following conclusion:

There is a software problem that can cause the HDMI hardware to fail under unspecified conditions. I would asume after the software is corrected Dish will need to exchange receivers that have had the HDMI hardware failure.


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## Dune

Sory if this has been posted before.

I personally don't use HDMI but I came across this link that explains a few things:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20930#post20930

Hope this might be of help

Dune


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## skassan

GRever said:


> My HDMI output has not worked for 3 Months. I waited for a software update to fix my problem. I got tired of waiting and asked customer service to send me a replacement. The replacement fixed the problem. I was told by the Tech that the HDMI output might fail again and that the problem will be fix in a software release scheduled for October. Asuming that the Tech is correct I have come to the following conclusion:
> 
> There is a software problem that can cause the HDMI hardware to fail under unspecified conditions. I would asume after the software is corrected Dish will need to exchange receivers that have had the HDMI hardware failure.


Perhaps the software bug is putting the display device on the "black list" of devices not allowed to decode the signal. This could explain why a software problem would appear to be permanent.


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## David_Levin

skassan said:


> Perhaps the software bug is putting the display device on the "black list" of devices not allowed to decode the signal. This could explain why a software problem would appear to be permanent.


Doubt it. If that was the case, the HDMI would still work when I move it to an LCD monitor (which also used to work).


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## jjmd

I called yesterday to upgrade my 921 to a 622 and mentioned that my purchased 622 was one of the ones that had an HDMI failure. It had worked for about 4 hours with my Samsung 42" EDTV plasma (HDMI to DVI cable) then quit, with no way of getting it back (checked the cable with my Oppo 970). The CSR said that they have been told to replace 622s that have HDMI failures, except those connected to Visio TVs. He went away to confirm this and came back saying that 3.60 was supposed to fix the software issues, except with Visios and that if I had tried a receiver reset and cable unplugging since my receiver got 3.60 (I had) that they would send out a replacement. It is on it's way. I hope it, and the one replacing the 921 which will be connected to my Optima H77 projector, work...

Jay


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## Maxfli500

Jay,

I am on my 2nd 622 (also Purchased), Connected to a Optoma HD72. 1st one HDMI failed after 6 weeks, then played games with Dish network CSR's for weeks before they would swap it. Now I have been working ok for about a month. HD on the Optoma is great.

Bruce


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## rice0209

That is what saddens me the most about this whole experience. I upgraded from my 921 to the 622 because of the constant problems of my (3) 921's and because of the HDMI input.

I have a Hitachi HDPj52 projector that i had hooked up the the 921 with a DVI to hdmi converter. In digital, the picture is beautiful, while as on component, at 110" you start to see more of the video artifacts and noise, etc (the 921 produced a lot more noise than the 622). I have never gotten a picture on my 622 with HDMI, not even a glimpse. My projector always reports "no signal." 

It is just so sad, because even the component input looks beautiful but it is not near as good as the all digital source i had from the 921 to the projector. I just can't wait to see what the all digital hdmi singal will look like coming from the 622. I have been excited from day one and really hope that they get this figured out. I swapped my 622 though a CSR at the end of June and it did not help. I should call back and see if anything has changed or if they will send me another and give it a try.


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## SJ HART

I have had two different 622s which I had to swap out because of HDMI failures. I also have a 942 which has never failed (HDMI).... SJ


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## omszz

HDMI started going out for me after I moved my reciever to a new media stand. I would have to jiggle the cable at the back of the sat box to get it working. At times, its was very bad and I'd have to mess with the cable for several minutes for it to come back. However it seems i've found a magic connection point and its been running solid for about a week now. Just seems like its extremely sensitive. I'm not going close to the box anymore in fear of shaking up the connection again.


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## eliocon1

Hi all,
My HDMI failed a few weeks ago and I was reluctant to contact Dish Network since it seemed so many people here had trouble getting them to replace their receivers. Well on Thursday I figured what the heck so I logged on to the support site and talked to a tech online. After making me turn the receiver off and on and playing with the connector he went ahead and sent out a replacement without giving me any grief. I don't know if anyone else has tried going through their online tech support but it was fast and pretty darn painless. And I get a new receiver next week!!

Yay

Elio


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## DonLandis

eliocon1

Your decision was a the correct one as was your tech support CSR who did what is expected, verify he couldn't get it to work and then do the right thing, replace the receiver! Duncan in another thread reported he got sh!t on by a CSR and I would'nt put up with that nonsense. 

No one should feel reluctant to report a hardware failure on the HDMI or any other part of the 622. Harrassment by a CSR for their failed equipment is uncalled for and looks very bad for the company. It is more important to call in a failure than to report it here. One thing is certain, if you don't report the failure, you won't get any resolution to the problem. If you do report it you will even if some ahole CSR gives you a hard time. But I can assure you one thing, if any ahole CSR tries such nonsense on me he will surely regret it, maybe not immediately but when the CEO issues a memo asking what the F are you people doing? to his supervisor, he will learn how stupid it is to play tough guy with the customers. Hes not a past due bill collector or a skip tracer, just a CSR and that is the only job he needs to do. 

It's normal to have technology fail but its uncalled for to have so many worried about CSR abusing the customers who call in the failure and expect it to me remedied.


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## eliocon1

DonLandis said:


> eliocon1
> 
> Your decision was a the correct one as was your tech support CSR who did what is expected, verify he couldn't get it to work and then do the right thing, replace the receiver! Duncan in another thread reported he got sh!t on by a CSR and I would'nt put up with that nonsense.
> 
> No one should feel reluctant to report a hardware failure on the HDMI or any other part of the 622. Harrassment by a CSR for their failed equipment is uncalled for and looks very bad for the company. It is more important to call in a failure than to report it here. One thing is certain, if you don't report the failure, you won't get any resolution to the problem. If you do report it you will even if some ahole CSR gives you a hard time. But I can assure you one thing, if any ahole CSR tries such nonsense on me he will surely regret it, maybe not immediately but when the CEO issues a memo asking what the F are you people doing? to his supervisor, he will learn how stupid it is to play tough guy with the customers. Hes not a past due bill collector or a skip tracer, just a CSR and that is the only job he needs to do.
> 
> It's normal to have technology fail but its uncalled for to have so many worried about CSR abusing the customers who call in the failure and expect it to me remedied.


Hi Don,

I agree with you. I used to work in management for Apple Computer Retail and I'm pretty familiar with good and bad customer service. Dish has always been pretty great to deal with. I only ever had one negative experience in the 5 years I've been a subscriber and it was over a mix-up when I moved the second time. I've had a couple of issues with the 622 (I'm on my third, the one they're shipping me is number 4) but overall I'm happy with it. Only real bad problem is that I never want to leave the home theater anymore. I live at the Jersey Shore and I've hardly gone to the beach this year. Between the 622 and my Panny 900 on a 100" it's a miracle I see the outdoors.

Have a great weekend all.

Elio


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## Duncan

I have also always gotten excellent customer service from Dish up until now. Personally, I choose not to replace the 622 until I am more confident it will work. But, in agreement with the strategy of DonLandis I called Dish and I did relate to the CSR in no uncertain terms that this problem is unnacceptable and I hope others will do the same until a resolution is forthcoming.


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## SJ HART

My replacement 622 arrived and HDMI works again.... Wonder what is going on with these units? SJ


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## audiomaster

This is why I have not upgraded my 811 to 622! It sounds like to me that there is a software problem that is causiong the hardware to fail repeatedly. But I don't want to get a 622 and then find out that it is really a hardware problem and will require an exchange of receivers to fix. Obviously they are making hardware revisions since we are seeing the revision letters move down the alphabet! Hopefully, by the time I can get Charlotte HD locals, they will resolve this or at least level with us on what the problem is.


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## Unclejeff

Whew...I don't know if i am just lucky...or, what. I am running my 622 into my NEC 50XM5 since late January(superbowl) and I have had zero problems with the HDMI/DVI cable. Great picture; total customer satisfaction.

It could be the NEC Plasma.


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## ChuckA

Unclejeff said:


> Whew...I don't know if i am just lucky...or, what. I am running my 622 into my NEC 50XM5 since late January(superbowl) and I have had zero problems with the HDMI/DVI cable. Great picture; total customer satisfaction.


Hmmmm. You must have gotton a pre-release 622 then. :nono: February 1 was the first date you could place an order for a 622 and the first installs were several weeks after that. I ordered on Feb 1 and was installed on the 25th. And, my HDMI has worked just fine since then.


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## sNEIRBO

First let me say that I have never noticed a problem with my HDMI. It has worked flawlessly (in my opinion) since I got my receiver in April.

Over the weekend I noticed that my Detroit Sat HD Locals had the audio and video out of sync (by about 10 seconds). I called DISH Tech Support this afternoon. For once, I finally got a really nice, knowledgable person on the phone. She informed me of the HDMI issues with the ViP622 receivers, and suspected that my issues with audio / video sync were related to the HDMI. She suggested 3 steps to try to solve the issue -

1) Soft reset (power button hold manuever) - I had already done that with no luck in solving the problem
2) Hard reset (unplug, wait, re-plug) - I hadn't tried that yet since it's difficult to get to the power outlet behind the wall of equipment.

She warned me that if either of these fixed the problem, it may only be temporary. The only option she offered that she thought would be a permanent fix was -

3) Use component cables instead of HDMI.

I'm going to try to unplug / replug tonight to see if that fixes the issue. If not, looks like I'll be investing in a set of good component cables tomorrow.


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## Ron Barry

First off where is your audio coming from? Is it through your HDMI cable and out your TV or through optical or through RCA. I would first try your audio through one of the other options to see if the sync is off. 

If so, there is an Audio option in setup op or preferences. I would try changing it to see if that improves your audio experience. 

If you are only seeing this through your HD locals, My guess is that there is an encoding issue on your HD locals and swapping your cables will not make any difference. I would try the suggestion above first before doing a HDMI to component swap. 

If your other channels audio is in sync that usually points to a upstream issue most of the time.


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## sNEIRBO

Ron Barry said:


> First off where is your audio coming from? Is it through your HDMI cable and out your TV or through optical or through RCA. I would first try your audio through one of the other options to see if the sync is off.
> 
> If so, there is an Audio option in setup op or preferences. I would try changing it to see if that improves your audio experience.
> 
> If you are only seeing this through your HD locals, My guess is that there is an encoding issue on your HD locals and swapping your cables will not make any difference. I would try the suggestion above first before doing a HDMI to component swap.
> 
> If your other channels audio is in sync that usually points to a upstream issue most of the time.


I have both options for audio from the ViP622 - HDMI to the TV speakers, Optical to my sound system. Sync is off on both.

I also have an under cabinet TV in the Kitchen hooked up via the RCAs through a wireless 2.4Ghz sender/receiver setup. Sync is off on that as well.

This is only happening on 6462 (WJBK Fox 2), 6461 (WDIV NBC 4) and 6460 (WWJ CBS 62) . ABC is not an issue 6459 (WXYZ ABC 7). No problems / issues with any of the other DISH Channels (either HD or SD).

I've already been through the "TV1 Audio Sync" option on the menus, it is set to "HD". I tried changing it to "SD" yesterday - nothing changed.

I've already tried the Soft Reset several times today - no improvement.

I just did a Hard Reset - 6461 (NBC) and 6460 (CBS) are now back in sync. 6462 (Fox) is still out of sync.

I have 6462 (Fox) mapped to my local channel (002-00) on my guide. The rest of the channels I can get off of my OTA and are mapped accordingly - NBC (004-01), ABC (007-01), etc. Is it possible the re-map is causing the issue?

I also realized while behind the HDTV, that component cables are not an option. I only have 2 components cable connections and they are both currently filled (Xbox 360 and DVD Burner). HDMI is the only option for my ViP622.


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## ChuckA

I have the 55" version of the same TV and HDMI has always worked fine. Sure, there are audio sync issues at times but I don't believe they are related to the HTMI connection at all. I also have a component connection to the same TV and have seen the sync issues using that connection as well.


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## Ron Barry

sNEIRBO said:


> I just did a Hard Reset - 6461 (NBC) and 6460 (CBS) are now back in sync. 6462 (Fox) is still out of sync.
> 
> I have 6462 (Fox) mapped to my local channel (002-00) on my guide. The rest of the channels I can get off of my OTA and are mapped accordingly - NBC (004-01), ABC (007-01), etc. Is it possible the re-map is causing the issue?
> 
> I also realized while behind the HDTV, that component cables are not an option. I only have 2 components cable connections and they are both currently filled (Xbox 360 and DVD Burner). HDMI is the only option for my ViP622.


Ok.. so covered the basics. The strange thing I am reading here is that a hard reboot fixed two out of three. If it was a receiver issue, I would have expected it to fix 3 out of 3. If it was a encoding issue upstream, I would have expected 0 out of 3.

Looks like you also have an OTA option available for the same content. Seeing any sync issues with the OTA?

If not, either you have two issues happening or the sync problem on two out of three was fixed upstream and the reboot caused the fix to show up.

Hard to tell at this point and I am sure there are other possibilities for what you are seeing. I do agree with ChuckA, definitely not a HDMI cable issue.


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## sNEIRBO

Ron Barry said:


> Looks like you also have an OTA option available for the same content. Seeing any sync issues with the OTA?


There were no sync issues with the OTAs for NBC and CBS while I was having problems with 6461 and 6460. I can not reliably pull in Fox off of my OTA so I couldn't compare.

The SD feed for local Fox was synced though.

Maybe DISH found the problem after I called and they were working on it. I'll give them some time and try a hard reset later tonight. Maybe FOX will straighten out after that.

Not a major issue right now, just annoying. Now if it were January and I couldn't watch 24 in HD tonight, then it would be a MAJOR problem.


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## andrewmeyers

HDMe said:


> I have seen, on some other forums, issues with some of the new HD-DVD players and HDMI as well.
> 
> While I am not taking Dish off the hook completely here... there is a nagging thought in the back of my head telling me that maybe this HDMI thing wasn't completely well-thought out before the industry tried to roll it out as a standard.
> 
> I would not be surprised at all to find out that independent of whatever problems Dish is having that there is a general problem with HDMI compatibility across the board with TVs, DVD-player/recorders, and pretty much anything else designed around those interfaces.


We all got screwed with HDMI. Sure it works sometimes, all the time for a lucky few. HDMI will not be truly functional until version 1.3 comes out late this year and all of your AV gear most be using it. If Hollywood hadn't gotten the CE industry to stop using Firewire, our home theaters would be true things of beauty.


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## sNEIRBO

I just checked 6462 (Fox 2 Detroit) and the audio / video is synced again. I did not do any resets. Checked at 7:30 (to watch Sienfeld) and it was not synced - it was driving me nuts so I switched to the SD feed. 

Looks like the issue must have been on DISH's side and they straightened it out.


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## SJ HART

Interesting that during the DISH technical chat today they mentioned the HDMI problems that the 622 is having. They indicated that it is either a non-compatible display or a connector issue (it wears out -and if it worked in the past and stopped working, this was your problem). I have replaced two 622s which were plugged in and *never moved *(out of two equipment racks). I find it hard to believe that the HDMI connector wore out. It never moved once it was connected. Oh well.... SJ


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## Duncan

First of all from my own experience, how can it be a non-compatible display or cable when it works for a while then stops working and the same HDMI port and cable still work with an HDMI DVD player?

Second, that is not at all what tech support told me when I called, they said it was known to be a software issue and they are working hard to fix the problem.

Dish is rapidly losing their credibility.


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## DonLandis

Tech Chat confirms my suspision!

Software issue only when the monitor you use has software incompatibilities with the 622. This does not mean a DVD player , it means a 622! Dan Minnick said very clearly that they are continuing to resolve the issue with software modifications to include software fixes as each monitor incompatibility becomes known. Currently they have resolved all reported monitor issues except one. He tried to recall the monitor brand but wasn't specific on that name. He did say they were still working on adding software updates to include this brand monitor in the near future. So Duncan- you had to, listen to what he said, if it once worked and now doesn't it IS NOT a software issue but one of a broken hdmi connector on the 622. 

In my opinion if your monitor never worked on the 622, you need to get with E* and make sure your monitor is on the list that they know about and working on a software fix. 

However, IF you did have your monitor working at one time, never changed that monitor, and your HDMI failed, it is considered a hardware failure, you need to contact E* for a replacement. He was very clear that these are the two issues at play here. 


There have been numerous reports of excessive heat generated arounf the HDMI connector when it fails. I still believe this may be part of the problem causing the hdmi jack to fail over time as the metal spring loaded socket connections lose tension in the connections. Another part of the problem is a common lay person remedy I have seen so often with electronics. People will plug things in with exessive force which could actually damage a fragile socket but still make connection... for awhile. At some point even while just sitting on a shelf, a long term sagging of the weight of the cable itself can eventually make that damaged hdmi connector lose connection. 


At this point, the announced hdmi problem exactly matches the problem with the HD TIVO HD10-250. I was able to repair my hdmi connector that failed after one month. This was a case of the hdmi connector losing connection with the HR10-250 mother board. 


More failure info- It is rare to learn of HDMI failure in other hdmi devices in this forum however, my hdmi jack failed on an LG brand DVD player about 2 months ago. The jack does not output anymore to 3 different HDMI monitors. It failed shortly after I switched out the cable with another longer one and then switched back to the original. If I jiggled it, the picture came back momentarily but basically, I consider it broke! I replaced the DVD player and the new one is fine. Software? hardly, it is hardware breakage. I was looking for an excuse to buy a DVD recorder to replace the player anyway. 

So, believe what you want but as far as I'm concerned, Danm Minnick has given us a straight answer- If your hdmi once worked on your monitor and now it doesn't, your hardware failed under warranty and you are due a replacement! Call them and don't take no for an answer. they owe you a replacement. 
If this is your case and you still feel it is software, then be Dishes guest and wait for the hdmi to return properly with the next software update. 



Then we also have the third possibility and that is both hardware connector broke and you have a monitor with software incompatibilities with the 622. If you call in and they say your monitor issue was resolved but it still doesn't work, request a replacement as your connector may be broken!


Finally a word about CSR tech support responses- I have found so many of these answers from that source to be completely wrong. Many times the reason they give wrong answers such as the debate of hardware vs, software on the hdmi is that they are concerned of admitting a hardware failure for fear there will be a mass return effort by the consumers and in reality, the issue just may be software at the point in time you called for all they knew at that time. As time goes on, they are learning more too and I think it is safe to say, we received the straight answer from Dan!


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## Stewart Vernon

I still say this confirms all my suspicions that HDMI simply is not ready for prime-time. IF there are this many incompatibilities with what is supposed to be a standard spec... and if the connector is as fragile as it seems... this should never have been released as a standard into the wild for TVs, receivers, DVD players, and the like.


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## rice0209

Again though, Dish does not seem to have HDMI certification. Their port is an "HDTV" port which means that for one reason or another, there hdmi technology did not meet HDMI certifications and therefore the HDMI group would not let them put the HDMI badge on.

I have been using different hdmi devices for over a year with no problems. In fact, all my inputs are up converted to hdmi and then sent to my projector. My 622 hooked up via component is converted to hdmi through my a/v receiver and then sent to my projector. 

I have never had any issues with the strength of my hdmi ports on my onkyo receiver as they obviously spent the money to maintain strength. I use monster cables which are heavier than the average cables and still no problems. 

HDMI is a product that is being developed but blaming this on HDMI without any real proof of what this problem actually entails is not quite fair. With all the problems the 921 and 942 had, I would be much more quick to assume dish built another low quality product.

I am still waiting for some more clear answers on this problem before i truly start blaming anyone as this situation seems to have so many variables involved. One person't hdmi problem doesn't have similiar variables to another person's hdmi problem. Unfortunately, this will just take some more time to go through the issues and find that one common denominator or possibly multiple common issues.


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## Duncan

Don, point well taken, and it is my point as well that I guess I didn't express clearly:

Tech Chat says it's hardware, Tech Support says it's software. 2 different responses from the same organization which is why I say they currently have no credibility for me. 

They need to organize a company-wide response to this problem and deal with their customers fairly and honor the warranties of the device, as you suggest. Until they do so I will still say they are without credibility for me personally. If we have finally been given a straight answer, then hopefully things will improve in the near future.

Duncan


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## Duncan

Don, just read the recap. Unless I'm missing something he never says it's a broken HDMI connector on the 622. He says this:

"Question: HDMI problems on the 622?
Answer: Run into 2 HDMI problems. First, not all TVs follow the standards, so they have to modify the software to support that TV. Most of these issues have been fixed. Second, the HDMI connector is not that durable, not very heavy duty and it can break. Right now Vizio TVs are having the most problems."

He seems to be saying that if it has worked and doesn't now, that the connector in the TV must be broken. Or that if it never worked it's a software problem with the TV (which they are fixing by upgrading the 622 software.) So he is blaming the TV in both cases, not the 622. At least that's the way I read it, I guess he never really specifes which HDMI he thinks is fragile, 622 or TV. If you have another source of information where he says it's a failure of the 622 which is covered by warranty, please let me know. I would like to call them back and cite the info.

Thanks,
Duncan


----------



## Duncan

Ok, just found another text linked from the recap post:

"Dan: On the 622 there are 2 different problems. Not all TVs implement to the standard. Dish is working with those manufacturers to modify the 622 software to better support those sets. Second problem is that the connector is not durable, not hard to break. If it was working then it stopped, it's probably broken. On TV compatibility, they have found the problem to be on the TV end of the cable."

Still not that clear whether they are blaming the 622 regarding the connector.

Duncan


----------



## ChuckA

I just watched the Tech Chat I recorded last night. He does not blame either the 622 or the TV for a broken connector but just says the HDMI connectors are under engineered. And he said it is an industry wide problem. He did not say it was specific to the connectors used on the 622.

If you have another HDMI device such as a DVR that work on the same TV connector as the 622 fails on, then it is obvious to me the problem is the 622 connector not the TV connector. That of course assumes that it once worked and then stopped. As they said in the chat, if it never worked it is likely to be a software issue.


----------



## Duncan

ChuckA said:


> I just watched the Tech Chat I recorded last night. He does not blame either the 622 or the TV for a broken connector but just says the HDMI connectors are under engineered. And he said it is an industry wide problem. He did not say it was specific to the connectors used on the 622.
> 
> If you have another HDMI device such as a DVR that work on the same TV connector as the 622 fails on, then it is obvious to me the problem is the 622 connector not the TV connector. That of course assumes that it once worked and then stopped. As they said in the chat, if it never worked it is likely to be a software issue.


Ok, that's good. That is, in fact, the case with me. The HDMI port on the TV once worked with the 622, now it does not. The same TV port still works with other HDMI device (DVD player) so it must be the HDMI port on the 622 that has failed so I should request a replacement unit.

Thanks to all,
Duncan


----------



## DonLandis

I know this is like rocket science but even so, all of you will eventually figure it out. If it once worked and now doesn't, It broke! If the Monitor still works with another hdmi source, but the 622 doesn't work with any monitor, it probably means the rocket fell in the ocean! 

Dan wasn't reading from a carefully prepared script written by a team of lawyers. He was answering the question from the top of HIS head, therefore it is unreasonable to microanalyze the shape of his sentence structure the way the lawyers did with Bill Clinton's deposition on the definition of the word is. yada yada-   One has to apply a degree of logic to determining what broke, or whether the connection never worked at all (software) I think most reasonable people can figure it out from what Dan Minick said. In the genre of the thread theme, I am satisfied he gave a straight answer.

I see, Duncan you now agree that you need a replacement. As for reading a recap of the discussion, I found long ago there have been some degree of editorial license in these recaps. Best to try to catch the replay of the tech chat yourself and hear it first hand. I had my dish DVR's set to record it. I need to watch stuff like this on delay so I can skip forward to the sections that interest me.


----------



## harsh

DonLandis said:


> He tried to recall the monitor brand but wasn't specific on that name.


I'm pretty sure he said Vizio.


----------



## James Long

DonLandis said:


> As for reading a recap of the discussion, I found long ago there have been some degree of editorial license in these recaps.


I'm not sure I like the tone of that, although I do agree about being able to skip through the uninteresting parts. I spent five minutes trying to SKIP FWD during Scott's little interactive TV demo. Unfortunately I was watching live.

And now, 110 seconds of Tech Chat:Mark: "We've got a couple of people that are experiencing problems with their HDMI port - not port but their connector so - Dan you want to talk a little bit about that in particular to the 622 and some other stuff ..."

Dan: "Yeah Mike, er Mark, I will. On the 622 - we've run into two different HDMI problems that a consumer can run in to. Sometimes, you know HDMI is a standard and not all televisions quite implement to the standard - so they vary a little bit and that can cause some problems. And when we find a TV that isn't meeting the standard we do go in and modify the software - we work with the manufacturer we work with the hardware provider to modify the software to support that television or that television manufacturer.
"We're working through those issues and we think that we've - whittled those down and haven't had too many reports that we have not heard of on those kind of issues.

"The second problem we have - is the HDMI connector is a standard industry connector - and its just not that durable. And that HDMI cable is pretty heavy and long and if you stick it in there and it wobbles it can break the connector."
Mark: "And that is an industry-wide problem it is just not a robust design - we're trying to get them to beef it up"
Dan: "Right - the HDMI connectors that are available are - just as you said - they are not very heavy duty. They were under-engineered in my opinion.
"So that can be a problem - and if you wiggle it or you move your box or plug it in too hard you can break that connector so - it could be a broken connector. I'd say, if your HDMI connection was working and it stopped thats going to be a broken connector. 'Cause if it is a television incompatibility problem it just won't work from the start."

Mark: "So -- but on the software side - really its been - typically every time we have gone out it has been the other component manufacturer that hasn't work save one case, right, Dan?"
Dan: "Correct, yes."
Mark: "And who is the one case we are having issues with?"
Dan: "Right now it's an odd TV its called 'Vizio' - it's the one we still haven't resolved. Incompatibility."​Thanks for the spelling harsh - indeed he said "Vizio".


----------



## Duncan

James, thank you very much. That is pretty clear wording and exactly what I was hoping for!  

Now does anyone think there would be a way to somewhat reduce the potential for failure of the HDMI port? I'm thinking of taping or tying the cable in place to prevent jiggling. 

Thanks,
Duncan


----------



## James Long

They didn't explain WHICH connector was underengineered ... the one on the cable or the one they buy to install on their receivers. I'm betting "option 2". 

My HDMI cable is very lightweight (not a monster cable here ... it is about the same size as a keyboard cable). It has worked for six months and should continue ... I've even unplugged it occasionally to check the HDMI on my ViP-211. (That works too.)


----------



## sNEIRBO

James Long said:


> Dan: "Right - the HDMI connectors that are available are - just as you said - they are not very heavy duty. They were under-engineered in my opinion.


I don't know where they get their HDMI cables from, but the two I have are way OVER Engineered in my opinion. These things are super heavy duty, they look like a 240V Extension cord. The one for my ViP622 is covered in a blue nylon mesh weave - I'm guessing to avoid crimping / cracking of the casing. The one for my upconvert DVD player looks literally like a 240V extension cord - about the same thickness and covered in a back rubber. I can't remember where these came from. I don't know if it was included with my 942, or with my upconvert DVD player, or if I bought them from Best Buy separately.


----------



## David_Levin

What they said on the chat certainly makes engineering sense.

But, I'd like to add that thier quick answers are not always correct (shoot, they didn't even remember that the 622 doesn't support analog OTA).

My HDMI port died after 3.5 months of use. Plug pressure doesn't feel any different, and no amoung of jiggling gets it working.

I'll take a careful look this weekend and see if I see any signs of physical damage. I might even pop the lid and look for separation at the PCB.


----------



## rice0209

I would hope he was talking about the hdmi input on the back of the receiver as the one that was underengineered as the majority of posters tested their cables to find that the cable is okay but the 622 stil does not work on that cable or a new cable (save a few posters who actually had bad cables.)

Again though, I have two hdmi inputs on the back of my onkyo receiver that have both been in use for almost a year with no movement of the port or problems whatsoever. I have plugged and unplugged the hdmi cables many, many times. Mine were built solidly whether it was Onkyo beefing up the attachment to the chassis or it was HDMI providing a very strong connector.

With the vagueness that Dan from Dish had in that chat, I would say they are still playing it safe and not getting specific about whose fault this problem is as they danced around blaming the tv manufacturers and the HDMI equipment manufacturers.

My HDMI has never worked with the 622, yet it works with every other device I have, hdmi or not. Since all my video content (x-box, gamecube, dvd player, etc) is all upconverted to hdmi to my projector through one cable, i know it is not a physical problem with any of my original equipment. That narrows it back down to a problem with a CHEAP hdmi, excuse me, HDTV port on the back of the 622, or a software issue that affects the device from running. Being that I have never gotten a signal from the get go on two different 622's, i would lean toward MY problem being software related. I still do not understand their issues since other hdmi devices work properly. It sounds more like Dish did not prepare for hdmi correctly being that we have seen so many different brands of TV's not work well with the 622 vs. just a select few.

If I remember right, I have heard Mistubishi, Sony, Phillips, Optoma, Hitachi, Vizio, LG, and many others have reported HDMI failing. I guess all these different brands are just not adhering to the hdmi spec except for Dish and their "HDTV" port that are staying true to the spec! (That was sarcasm in case I did not lay it on thick enough.)

This whole situation just gets on my nerves because of my past two year experience with the 921. I still am holding out hope that they will resolve this issue although I do not ever expect dish to admit fault if it is proven that they or someone they contracted provided less than the standard HDMI equipment.


----------



## Bill R

harsh said:


> I'm pretty sure he said Vizio.


Yes, he did. Vizio HDTVs are mainly sold by Wal*Mart and Sam's Club. Personally, I would avoid that brand. I had a neighbor that got one and he had to return it twice and finally decided to get a different brand. One Vizio had a bad tuner and the other had a misaligned screen.


----------



## JMikeF

rice0209 said:


> With the vagueness that Dan from Dish had in that chat, I would say they are still playing it safe and not getting specific about whose fault this problem is as they danced around blaming the tv manufacturers and the HDMI equipment manufacturers.


Yes - CYA big time!

Nevertheless, I am glad that they mentioned it. Now, the next step would be for them to honestly, specifically acknowledge (if the corporate lawyers will ever allow it) that the problem could be related to the 622 HDMI port.

I won't be holding my breath. And Dish gets awards for this kind of 'customer service'? Jeesh! :nono2:


----------



## Rob Glasser

Bill R said:


> Yes, he did. Vizio HDTVs are mainly sold by Wal*Mart and Sam's Club. Personally, I would avoid that brand. I had a neighbor that got one and he had to return it twice and finally decided to get a different brand. One Vizio had a bad tuner and the other had a misaligned screen.


I second that. I bought a 42" Vizio Plasma from Costco a year and a half ago and returned it 2 weeks later. Horrible picture quality, lots of 'noise' in dark scense, bad contrast, and horrible image retension. HD content looked good but DVDs and SD content were really bad. Picked up a Pioneer instead and haven't looked back, all formats, HD and SD look way better than the Vizio ever did. Both sets were calibrated with Digital Video Essentials.

From what I've read since then they have made a lot of picture quality improvements, but everytime I go to Costco and see their plasmas next to Pioneers and Panasonics they just dont' compare. Same with their LCD line, the Sharp models look 100x better. Guess if your looking to go cheap they are ok, but I couldn't do it, I tried.

My personal expierence after looking at HD TVs for a couple years now is, most do a pretty good job of displaying HD content, it's when you want to watch something that is not in HD where the flaws of the cheap off-brand models really show. And, since there is still a ton of content that I watch that is not HD, including DVDs and SD channels, it's very important to me that any TV I own do a good job of displaying 480i and 480p content.


----------



## lujan

What happened to the link to the Tech Chat? I saw it earlier this morning and then when I tried to go to it because I had a little time, it was gone?


----------



## Ron Barry

Still on the main page.. Guess Chris only put it at the top for a day.


----------



## Ron Barry

rice0209 said:


> With the vagueness that Dan from Dish had in that chat, I would say they are still playing it safe and not getting specific about whose fault this problem is as they danced around blaming the tv manufacturers and the HDMI equipment manufacturers.


From reading the transcript that James provided, i personally don't see dancing or playing it safe. From my vantage point, I see a technical manager answering a question off the cuff without prior warning. Infact, based on the content of the whole show I am sure he was also trying to put it in terms that he felt the whole audience would understand. Not everyone is as technically savvy as the users on this board. I would be more critical of the statements made if this was a prepared statement from Dish. As someone also noted, not everything said during the QA turns out to be factually. They are going off the top of the head and from what they understand the issues to be. Do I think this statement is accurate. Well I am sure there is truth in it and I tend to believe that the issues he talked about are real problems the engineering team is facing.



rice0209 said:


> My HDMI has never worked with the 622, yet it works with every other device I have, hdmi or not. Since all my video content (x-box, gamecube, dvd player, etc) is all upconverted to hdmi to my projector through one cable, i know it is not a physical problem with any of my original equipment. That narrows it back down to a problem with a CHEAP hdmi, excuse me, HDTV port on the back of the 622, or a software issue that affects the device from running. Being that I have never gotten a signal from the get go on two different 622's, i would lean toward MY problem being software related. I still do not understand their issues since other hdmi devices work properly. It sounds more like Dish did not prepare for hdmi correctly being that we have seen so many different brands of TV's not work well with the 622 vs. just a select few.


Personally I think your configuration falls into the current incompatible catagory. An analogy here would be OTA issues we run into from time to time... In the past people have had situations where a channel shows fine on another tuner while does not come up on a Dish receiver. In most of these cases it turns out that something in the stream that the content provider is providing is not cool. One receiver ignores it while the other receiver considers it an error and does not continue. In most cases the problem is a stream issue and a stream fix rights the world.

In this case, righting the world is not easy and the participants need to be more robust. Like all specs they are subject to interpertation and it is in the interpertation where incompatibilities surface.

I suggest that if you have not posted in Jeff's HDMI TV thread that you do with the information it has never worked and that you have done a 622 swap with no success. This to me indicates an incompatibility and gives some hope to having it addressed. I would also call E* and have it logged.



rice0209 said:


> If I remember right, I have heard Mistubishi, Sony, Phillips, Optoma, Hitachi, Vizio, LG, and many others have reported HDMI failing. I guess all these different brands are just not adhering to the hdmi spec except for Dish and their "HDTV" port that are staying true to the spec! (That was sarcasm in case I did not lay it on thick enough.)


I suggest going through Jeff's thread of TVs with HDMI not working. I did a while back. the Lion share of issues were of the type... Worked and stopped working not never worked. In my opinion, the never worked cases would fall into the incompatibility bucket. Based on current information known, the worked and is now not working cases are most likely caused by a connector going bad. Like someone mentione above, if another HDMI device works under this case the likely suspect is your 622.



rice0209 said:


> This whole situation just gets on my nerves because of my past two year experience with the 921. I still am holding out hope that they will resolve this issue although I do not ever expect dish to admit fault if it is proven that they or someone they contracted provided less than the standard HDMI equipment.


Understand, I was also a 921 user. Since I also had my HDMI port go south this issues is more personal to me also. I do believe what you are seeing is in the bucket of incompatibility and not a bad HDMI. Have you checked to see if any other users have the same config with a 622 and have had success. My guess is they have not.

I do believe the 622 is a far cry from the 921 and understand your frustration. However, It is my opinion based on all the posts I have read that users where the HDMI is DOA is small compared to the users where the HDMI went out.

Does not make your situation any less frustrating or any less critical, I just feel that there are two issues and the smaller population of users are experience the issue you are experience. And the other issue is not an HDMI compatibility issue.

Well that is my take on the comment and how it pertains to the users effected...


----------



## motrac

I'll take a careful look this weekend and see if I see any signs of physical damage. I might even pop the lid and look for separation at the PCB.[/QUOTE said:


> i did that after mine died and it looked like a couple of contacts came lose so i
> touched every pin going to the main p.c. board with a needle tip soldering
> iron and it's been working since.
> 
> this can be done without breaking any seals and no one can even tell you were in there.
> 
> i also left the cover off to allow for better ventilation.


----------



## lujan

Ron Barry said:


> Still on the main page.. Guess Chris only put it at the top for a day.


Where is the main page? I went from "ViP622 DVR Support Forum" up to "Dish Network Satellite Receiver Forums" and didn't find it. Then I went up to the top level page "DBSTalk.Com" and still didn't fine it. Can you just post a link for it?


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## Ron Barry

Sure...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62004


----------



## James Long

Looks like the link got bumped when the DirecTV review was posted. I've added an announcement to the E* forums to help people find the review (which is a "sticky" near the top of the Dish General forum listing).


----------



## lujan

Ron Barry said:


> Sure...
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62004


Thanks Ron!


----------



## Slordak

How long is the hardware warranty on the ViP-622, anyhow? If Dish still hasn't made any changes to the hardware design to strengthen the HDMI connection, it's likely that more and more people will continue to break the connector over time as these units go out.

I don't understand why this isn't some sort of major manufacturing red flag such that they would stop production and fix the problem, rather than risk continuous product returns.


----------



## James Long

One year warranty, IIRC.


----------



## Olevia37HD

James Long said:


> One year warranty, IIRC.


If you buy it with a CC you may get two, at least does.


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## David_Levin

motrac said:


> i did that after mine died and it looked like a couple of contacts came lose so i
> touched every pin going to the main p.c. board with a needle tip soldering
> iron and it's been working since.


Thanks motrac - same for me too !!! Here's my story....

My 622 HDMI went out after almost 4 months of use. After reading some other comments, I decided to pop the lid and take a look at the connector.

Sure enough, a pin had lifted from the PCB (don't think any software update is going to fix that). This is in sync with the tech forum (if you port was working then stopped, the connector has failed).

So, why are these pins coming lose after 4 months in the field?

One could say connector movement, but they do have the port screwed into the back of the chassis. There is only one screw, so I suppose that a twisting motion could pivot on the screw and stress the port solder joints.

Here's another thought....

During manufacturing the PCB is (presumably) assembled outside the chassis. They then drop it into the chassis and install the screw through the chassis into the port. If there is any gap between the chassis and the port it will get pulled back flush with the case. This could be applying stress to the connector.

Remember, this is not a big thru-hole with nice long leads to absorb motion. This is a fine pitch surface mount connector.

Also, as the box heats/cools the PCB will move relative to the chassis (different thermal coefficients), this will also stress the solder joints.

Dish blames the connector itself. I would only partially agree with that. It's Dish that chose this connector for this application (it might be fine in a different device). I think this is going to require a significant redesign. Switching to a different HDMI port would probably force a rev of the PCB and Chassis.

Well, I touched up the solder joint, though I'm not sure how long it will hold. If all the pins are under stress, it's very possible that another will fail (they may all need to be reflowed after installation in the chassis). But hey, my HDMI is functional again !!!

NOTE: I'm not condoning anyone try a self repair. This is fine-pitch hardware requiring the right skills and equipment. I have access to highly trained space-qualified assemblers and equipment.


----------



## SonicBee777

David_Levin said:


> During manufacturing the PCB is (presumably) assembled outside the chassis. They then drop it into the chassis and install the screw through the chassis into the port. If there is any gap between the chassis and the port it will get pulled back flush with the case. This could be applying stress to the connector.
> 
> Remember, this is not a big thru-hole with nice long leads to absorb motion. This is a fine pitch surface mount connector.
> 
> Also, as the box heats/cools the PCB will move relative to the chassis (different thermal coefficients), this will also stress the solder joints.
> ...
> NOTE: I'm not condoning anyone try a self repair. This is fine-pitch hardware requiring the right skills and equipment. I have access to highly trained space-qualified assemblers and equipment.


Sounds highly plausible, David. Good detective work! I haven't had a problem with my 622 HDMI (yet), and haven't opened the box. If the problem does seem to be solder-joint stress, might a properly-sized spacer or shim help? What I'm envisioning might also require a longer screw. I guess I'll just have to open the box tonight to see what you're seeing.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

David_Levin said:


> NOTE: I'm not condoning anyone try a self repair. This is fine-pitch hardware requiring the right skills and equipment. I have access to highly trained space-qualified assemblers and equipment.


Good work David - sounds to me like that's probably exactly what's happening with these ports. But, with that said...

*I would advise extreme caution to anyone thinking about doing this fix themselves. This will void your warranty, and if you screw it up, rather than going through the proper channels to get it replaced, you will be out of luck. And, DO NOT DO THIS ON A LEASED RECEIVER! You don't own it, until you screw it up, anyways...*


----------



## David_Levin

SonicBee777 said:


> Sounds highly plausible, David. Good detective work! I haven't had a problem with my 622 HDMI (yet), and haven't opened the box. If the problem does seem to be solder-joint stress, might a properly-sized spacer or shim help? What I'm envisioning might also require a longer screw. I guess I'll just have to open the box tonight to see what you're seeing.


Taking off the top is no big deal, but I wouldn't mess with it if your not having a problem.


----------



## motrac

Mark Lamutt said:


> Good work David - sounds to me like that's probably exactly what's happening with these ports. But, with that said...
> 
> *I would advise extreme caution to anyone thinking about doing this fix themselves. This will void your warranty, and if you screw it up, rather than going through the proper channels to get it replaced, you will be out of luck. And, DO NOT DO THIS ON A LEASED RECEIVER! You don't own it, until you screw it up, anyways...*


the above is good advice.
the only reason i did this myself was to prove that at least in my case it was not
software related.


----------



## wje

David_Levin said:


> .... My 622 HDMI went out after almost 4 months of use. After reading some other comments, I decided to pop the lid and take a look at the connector.
> 
> Sure enough, a pin had lifted from the PCB (don't think any software update is going to fix that). This is in sync with the tech forum (if you port was working then stopped, the connector has failed).


This is really quite amazing. D* had lots of problems with the HDMI port on the HR10-250. The hardware issue was exactly the same... solder joints cracking on the HDMI interface card. They ended up redesigning the card and its mount. I wonder if the card came from the same vendor?

So, since (most) 622's are leased, anyone anticipate any hassle from E* if we fix our own? Mine's working fine so far, but I'd much rather just resolder a joint myself rather than going throught the hassle of getting a replacement! (Yes, I read the semi-official statement, but this would be easier for E*, too. Officially, they would have to say that, but any guesses as to their real attitude?) I can't imagine they are going to check it very carefully on return. D*'s outsourced 'repair' center tended to just ship returns out to someone else, without actually fixing anything! I finally ended up mixing and matching pieces from two HR10's to get one working one.

Of course, I'm silly enough to hand-solder SOIC and SMT packages to PC boards anyway.


----------



## James Long

wje said:


> So, since (most) 622's are leased, anyone anticipate any hassle from E* if we fix our own?


Please see message #115 in this thread. If you didn't buy it don't be messing around inside it.


----------



## rice0209

For companies like Echostar, its all about the bottom line. If they can prove in anyway that you have been tinkering around inside the unit, they will either refuse to repair your unit or repair your unit for an extremely rediculous labor charge plus parts.

Besides, how many people would get inside and do more damge then good and then turn around and complain to E* about their faulty unit? Then echostar would be fixing the original problems plus the newly created ones. Very few of E*'s customers can do the kind of work that has been talked about in the previous posts.

The bottom line is any of you can do whatever you want to your units whether you lease them or not, but those actions can come with consequences that many of you would not like if you made a mistake.

Did dish put any kind of tamper seals on the case? Generally they will put a couple of these on the unit and if enough are broken that would allow a person into the case, they can refuse service unless it has an official service history.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

I don't know about units today, but the early 622s didn't have tamper seals on the case itself, but they did have one on the hard drive.


----------



## motrac

Mark Lamutt said:


> I don't know about units today, but the early 622s didn't have tamper seals on the case itself, but they did have one on the hard drive.


the only tamper seal is on the harddrive.
the hdmi connector in my unit is very low quality and not very well designed as for the way it connects to the main p.c. board.

i wish the 622 had a dvi connector like my 921 had, that's a heavy duty set up where this problem wouldn't happen.
and since most connect the 622 to a seperate surround receiver we wouldn't 
care that the dvi cable didn't carry audio also.


----------



## Duncan

I just set up my replacement 622 and HDMI works again. In retrospect, now that I know about the fragile nature of the port, I can recall how the installation techs banged away at it, never having connected HDMI before, until I connected it for them. Then I moved the unit around while the cable was connected, trying to find the right spot in the TV stand, probably too roughly. So this time I got everything perfect, gently slid the connector in and there it will stay.

-Duncan


----------



## motrac

Duncan said:


> I just set up my replacement 622 and HDMI works again. In retrospect, now that I know about the fragile nature of the port, I can recall how the installation techs banged away at it, never having connected HDMI before, until I connected it for them. Then I moved the unit around while the cable was connected, trying to find the right spot in the TV stand, probably too roughly. So this time I got everything perfect, gently slid the connector in and there it will stay.
> 
> -Duncan


it doesn't have anything to do with how it was installed.
it's the poor way it was manufactured and the lack of quality control.


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## tnsprin

motrac said:


> it doesn't have anything to do with how it was installed.
> it's the poor way it was manufactured and the lack of quality control.


But given they poor quality of the HDMI port being used, gentle handling is difinitely recommended.


----------



## SJ HART

Duncan said:


> I just set up my replacement 622 and HDMI works again. In retrospect, now that I know about the fragile nature of the port, I can recall how the installation techs banged away at it, never having connected HDMI before, until I connected it for them. Then I moved the unit around while the cable was connected, trying to find the right spot in the TV stand, probably too roughly. So this time I got everything perfect, gently slid the connector in and there it will stay.
> 
> -Duncan


I personally installed both of my 622s that were replaced. Each was placed gently into a component stack, HDMI connected firmly and not touched until the HDMI failed and I had to pull the unit out to be replaced.... SJ


----------



## gnm313-1

I just called to get mine replaced today. The CSR said it is definitely a software problem and the update is set to release on November 6th. and is in testing now. I fought with her for 10 minutes in an effort to get a new receiver but gave up when she came up with the date.

Any bets on this one?


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## Mark Lamutt

Definitely, absolutely not a software problem. That's being worked through all of the call centers now, but it's taking a while to make it through.


----------



## motrac

gnm313 said:


> I just called to get mine replaced today. The CSR said it is definitely a software problem and the update is set to release on November 6th. and is in testing now. I fought with her for 10 minutes in an effort to get a new receiver but gave up when she came up with the date.
> 
> Any bets on this one?


even if this were true nov. 6 is not today, it's a way off yet. you paid for
a good working receiver that's under warranty. you need to call back 
and hold your ground until they agree to ship that replacement.
if your car was not 100% would you let the dealer make you wait months
to get it going? i wouldn't!


----------



## zeekle

Mark Lamutt said:


> Definitely, absolutely not a software problem. That's being worked through all of the call centers now, but it's taking a while to make it through.


Have they changed something in new units or do we have just as much a chance of the new one failing we did with the first ones?


----------



## beaucop

I am on my third 622; the prior two had HDMI connections that stopped working after a few weeks. This one seems good and stable. The HDMI is working fine after 2 months! Maybe the newest units are being shipped with the problem solved. Time will tell.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

zeekle said:


> Have they changed something in new units or do we have just as much a chance of the new one failing we did with the first ones?


It's being worked on, but right now, you'll have just as much a chance of a replacement unit failing as the first ones.


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## Olevia37HD

Mark Lamutt said:


> It's being worked on, but right now, you'll have just as much a chance of a replacement unit failing as the first ones.


You guy's are making me glad I bought a 625.


----------



## James Long

Olevia37HD said:


> You guy's are making me glad I bought a 625.


Not having a HDMI port makes it better? 

I believe we got our straight answer, although a little garbled, on the Tech Chat.
The problems are:
1) TVs that don't follow the HDMI standard ... E* is working on those as they find them
2) Poor design of the HDMI connector ... E* is trying to get better designed connectors


----------



## xwingsct

I just bought Syntax Olevia 42" LCD for my parents as a gift and I also order Dish 622 receiver as well.
When I hook it up via HDMI the picture came all green. I was really frustrated thought I had defective TV. Since it's 42" I hate to pack it up and sent it back for a replacement.
My brother just happen to have a DVD player with HDMI input so I hook it up and Voila. Problem is gone. So, obviously it's not the TV.
but the funny thing is when I hook the receiver to their other Hidef Tube set via HDMI the picture came out perfect. For some reason it just doesn't like LCD ? 
Neiter 622 and 211 models just won't work with LCD via HDMI, only components.
(I played around with the cable a little bit by not inserting it all the way the picture would sometimes come out normal but with no sound. Component input still look amazing though, at least I know that I can use the HDMI input for either Blu-ray or HD-DVD in the future)

Does anybody have the same problem I'm having. Since this thread is so long I didn't get a chance to read the whole thing yet.


----------



## motrac

Olevia37HD said:


> You guy's are making me glad I bought a 625.


you guys are making me glad i just switched to dtv to try their tivo. enough was enough.
if more 622 owners had the guts to do that you can bet they would pay attention to their customers concerns.
also i'm addicted to a dvr and since dish lost the tivo suit you guys won't have one.


----------



## sNEIRBO

motrac said:


> you guys are making me glad i just switched to dtv to try their tivo. enough was enough.
> if more 622 owners had the guts to do that you can bet they would pay attention to their customers concerns.
> also i'm addicted to a dvr and since dish lost the tivo suit you guys won't have one.


Do you mean this lawsuit??

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/dish-network/

Sounds like DISH won the latest battle. This will end up being a monetary victory for TiVo. DISH will have to pay them a big cash settlement ($73 million) then a licensing fee for each unit they sell. It won't ever come to shutting down the already sold units, or DISH having to cease selling their DVRs.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

motrac said:


> you guys are making me glad i just switched to dtv to try their tivo. enough was enough.
> if more 622 owners had the guts to do that you can bet they would pay attention to their customers concerns.
> also i'm addicted to a dvr and since dish lost the tivo suit you guys won't have one.


The HDTivos had exactly the same HDMI port problem when they came out, and there's nothing that's going to happen to Dish DVRs because of this Tivo suit. And we get to watch many more HD channels than you do...  But I'm glad you enjoy your DTV box.


----------



## Olevia37HD

motrac said:


> you guys are making me glad i just switched to dtv to try their tivo. enough was enough.
> if more 622 owners had the guts to do that you can bet they would pay attention to their customers concerns.
> also i'm addicted to a dvr and since dish lost the tivo suit you guys won't have one.


I'm glad to see you like paying more for less!!!
My Dish DVR works great.


----------



## David_Levin

It's still sad that the CSRs are not all giving the correct answer. They might be in stall mode waiting for the hardware fix.

I think Dish could still be more forward.....

A statement like this would save them a lot of money:

Yes, we are aware of a problem with the construction of the HDMI port and are working on a redesign. We will take down your name a provide a replacment when it is ready. Please use component in the meantime.


----------



## wje

motrac said:


> you guys are making me glad i just switched to dtv to try their tivo. enough was enough.
> if more 622 owners had the guts to do that you can bet they would pay attention to their customers concerns.
> also i'm addicted to a dvr and since dish lost the tivo suit you guys won't have one.


That's very funny, considering one of the major reasons I left D* was because the HDMI port didn't work on the HR10. They gave everyone the runaround about it, claiming it would be fixed in software. After many months, they finally admitted it was a hardware problem. Let me know how much you like the speedy response time when you try to manage your recordings. Hint... make sure you have a copy of War and Peace to read.

Hope you enjoy D*, you sound like an excellent customer for them.


----------



## Presence

AND SO, back to the original question at hand (see the topic name):



Mark Lamutt said:


> Definitely, absolutely not a software problem. That's being worked through all of the call centers now, but it's taking a while to make it through.


Sounds like the answer is.... no.


----------



## normang

While one can debate all day which is better, component or HDMi, and it can vary on a per set and per user basis, the bottomline is that HDMI spec is just the pits, poorly concieved, poorly implemented on everyone's part. 

So for my 2 cents, use component, forget HDMI and one of these days another digital input will show up on a future TV that will appear in a Dish reciever of the future and maybe it will even work all the time on both sides the STB and the receiver.


----------



## DonLandis

Mark Lamutt said:


> The HDTivos had exactly the same HDMI port problem when they came out, and there's nothing that's going to happen to Dish DVRs because of this Tivo suit. And we get to watch many more HD channels than you do...  But I'm glad you enjoy your DTV box.


Mark- The HR10-250 did have issues with the HDMI port but the fix on it was quite simple. For anyone willing to open the TIVO box they would discover that the failed HDMI port was fixed to a daughter card that was plugged into the MB and held in place with a spring clip. During assembly, this clip was not properly snapped in place allowing the daughter card to work loose and cause the HDMI connection to fail. All one had to do is plug the daughter card back in and fix the spring clip in place properly and the HDMI was back in business. Also some had the incompatibility with various monitors that was fixed in software.

It was no surprise that the TECH chat recently announced the exact same problem with the 622 athough a little vague on the details. I have never opened my 622 so I don't know the physical construction of the HDMI connector but I would be surprised if it used exactly the same connection method as the TIVO with a loose daughter card. I would be willing to bet, the 622 has a more serious connector problem and that it may actually require a different HDMI jack. In other words, not something that can easily be remedied as we did with the TIVO.

I think at this point the problem with CSR's talking out their rears is also a problem and Dish really needs to have these guys stop the nonsense and all stick to the same story and that would be exchange the unit that fails. Telling a customer a lie to blow them off until November is borderline criminal especially in the aftermath of E*'s public announcement on the issue.!


----------



## James Long

DonLandis said:


> I have never opened my 622 so I don't know the physical construction of the HDMI connector but I would be surprised if it used exactly the same connection method as the TIVO with a loose daughter card.


See *above*.

A "fine pitch surface mount connector" on which one of the pins on that poster's reciever had lifted from the PCB. It required soldering to repair. (NOT recommended on a unit that you don't own!)


----------



## zeekle

Mark Lamutt said:


> It's being worked on, but right now, you'll have just as much a chance of a replacement unit failing as the first ones.


Thats ok as long as they will replace it again if/when the new one dies.

Although its getting old having to redo all of my timers every couple of months.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Presence said:


> AND SO, back to the original question at hand (see the topic name):
> 
> Sounds like the answer is.... no.


Wrong. Dish did give the straignt answer on the tech forum. The last word I had was that it is working its way though all of the call centers around the world, and that eventually, any CSR that you happen to get when you call will have the same answer to give you.

Being, if your HDMI port has failed, we'll replace your receiver.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

DonLandis said:


> Mark- The HR10-250 did have issues with the HDMI port but the fix on it was quite simple. For anyone willing to open the TIVO box they would discover that the failed HDMI port was fixed to a daughter card that was plugged into the MB and held in place with a spring clip. During assembly, this clip was not properly snapped in place allowing the daughter card to work loose and cause the HDMI connection to fail. All one had to do is plug the daughter card back in and fix the spring clip in place properly and the HDMI was back in business. Also some had the incompatibility with various monitors that was fixed in software.


Thanks for the clarification, Don. I had heard that the HR10-250 problem was a solder issue as well.


----------



## ixian

After weeks of trying and many different CSR's I finally got an RMA for my 622. Guess I will find out how this one does.


----------



## wje

Mark Lamutt said:


> Thanks for the clarification, Don. I had heard that the HR10-250 problem was a solder issue as well.


There was at least one run of HDMI interface boards for the HR10 that were susceptible to solder joints at the connector cracking. I fixed mine, but one enterprising company would resolder the board for those that were teeny-tiny solder joint challenged.


----------



## MarkInDenver

My HDMI went completely out two weeks after I owned the unit. I finally called about it today and they refused to replace the unit. (The remote works sporadically as well). I shall have to read up on my warranty but I find this a highly arrogant approach to take by Dish.

Talked to Customer Rep UF1.


----------



## MarkInDenver

I don't want to contact the CEO email again (and shouldn't have to). What would be the proper state authorities to register a complaint? Would it be the attorney general's office or someone else?

Thanks.


----------



## MarkInDenver

One last thought. If it's a software failure, there should be a diagnostic they (Dish) could run to "ping" the HDMI port. They never suggested this. I'm wondering what reparations they are going to offer come November when they don't have a software solution for failed hardware.


----------



## TBoneit

James Long said:


> Not having a HDMI port makes it better?
> 
> I believe we got our straight answer, although a little garbled, on the Tech Chat.
> The problems are:
> 1) TVs that don't follow the HDMI standard ... E* is working on those as they find them
> 2) Poor design of the HDMI connector ... E* is trying to get better designed connectors


I just watched the replay last night Monday the 28th.

As I understood them to say that if the HDMI port never worked it is most likely a compatibility issue.

If the port worked and then stopped working it is a hardware issue due to the poor design of HDMI itself.

So it seems to me that anyone having trouble getting warranty would be well seerved to record the Tech chat and keep it permanently. Then play back the relevent part to the CSR if they so no it is a software issue.

Hope this helps.

I wire tied my HDMI cable to my TV so that it can not move as a precaution as the TV does get some bumps as well as I've had my TVs on a turntable for many years Sd and now HD. I am also using a 10 foot HDMI cable for the 6 foot run so that it has no stress on the cable and connectors.


----------



## MarkInDenver

Thanks,

There is no stress on the cable. It's a pretty basic issue - it once worked, now it doesn't. It's not a software problem, it's a hardware failure.


----------



## sNEIRBO

MarkInDenver said:


> Thanks,
> 
> There is no stress on the cable. It's a pretty basic issue - it once worked, now it doesn't. It's not a software problem, it's a hardware failure.


I don't get this issue . . . once you install an HDMI into the port there's no more stress on the connection. It's not like these things are inside moving vehicles being bumped, wiggled and shaken all over the place. The average person plugs in the cable, positions the receiver in their entertainment center, and they never touch the machine again. How is this a mechanical failure? How is it, that the connection works one moment, and doesn't the next in a static environment?

Has DISH considered a corrosion issue? Or thermal issues possibly causing the soldering to pop - like say from temperature spikes during operation of the units? Has anyone that has a failed HDMI port checked their internal temp readings? I'm not sure if the stored data holds lifetime limits, or 24 hour limits.


----------



## MarkInDenver

Well my receiver has always run extremely hot, much hotter than the 501 or 510 that I had. 

Finally got hold of someone willing to replace the unit. My frustration with customer rep UF1 was the basics - when I was talking about my remote problem, she asked me if I had the antenna up. I replied that I thought that was only for the secondary remote. I heard a bit of typing. "Oh yes, you're right".

"What software version do you have?" "L360". More typing. "Oh yes, that's the current version. 

They kept wanting to explain how it was a software problem. "No, a software problem is when my Veritas software has a bug, bringing down my Oracle data bases last night, and when they are restored, I've got numerous ORA-00600 errors and bad data blocks, and 50 applications that I can't restart" 

In the words of Crocodile Dundee, "Now that's a knife"


----------



## Presence

MarkInDenver said:


> My HDMI went completely out two weeks after I owned the unit. I finally called about it today and they refused to replace the unit. (The remote works sporadically as well). I shall have to read up on my warranty but I find this a highly arrogant approach to take by Dish.
> 
> Talked to Customer Rep UF1.


Like I said, the answer to the question at hand is... no.

And don't give me this "working through the call centers" crap. It does not take a decade for something to "work through." You tell your people, POW it is done.


----------



## audiomaster

Mark Lamutt said:


> Definitely, absolutely not a software problem. That's being worked through all of the call centers now, but it's taking a while to make it through.


I'll bet the failure rate is extra high for people who are using a HDMI to DVI adapter at the back of the receiver! The extra weight of that big DVI connector mated to a DVI cable would torque anything loose! Dish should probably advise installers to use a short length cable adapter rather than a one piece adapter!


----------



## James Long

Perhaps we should rephrase the question of this thread and ask:Will users accept the answer that E* gives on the HDMI issue or will they continue to deny that their concerns are being addressed? Is there any answer that will be accepted as straight?​
There have been software problems and continue to be software problems with Vizio TVs (per the chat). While the concept of "if it goes out it must be hardware" was presented they also mentioned that they are adjusting software to handle TVs that don't 100% meet the HDMI standard. Say they get a fix for Vizio ... that is a software change that I sure hope doesn't break another set that already works.

Has the 622 been tested with every HDMI HDTV interface on the market? Has dish seen every type of interface that a ViP-622 has to identify and talk to? Is there a chance that there is another "Vizio" type set out there that E* is not aware of? I would not rule it out (although modules tend to show up across several versions and manufacturers so it's not completely unimaginable).

There is also the problem of what people do first when HDMI fails ... check all connections and possibly wiggle them to see if the cables came loose. So if one had an HDMI failure due to software that has been fixed it is possible that in testing the user could have initiated a hardware problem in their attempt to repair. Oh the complications of that idea!

I believe we have been given a straight answer ... past software issues that they found have been fixed and there remains a hardware issue. I also believe that there are some that won't accept any answer on the issue.


----------



## DonLandis

James Long said:


> See *above*.
> 
> A "fine pitch surface mount connector" on which one of the pins on that poster's reciever had lifted from the PCB. It required soldering to repair. (NOT recommended on a unit that you don't own!)


Thanks James- I missed David's Post. I trust anything David says because he is a member of unique no-nonsense gettr done people. As he also knows, I would not hesitate to fix the issue myself but that is my risk to take warranty wise. For me, dealing with a bunch of numbskull CSR's like is reported here is not something I care to waste my time on. However, I have to admit, when I call and if I get any clue the CSR is going to give me a hard time I stop them short and begin to use the old name drop referral trick and usually they come around by escalating me to the proper knowledgeable CSR or do as I request. Anyway, thanks much for your "above" reference. It is all adding up to a simple solution should my HDMI fail. For me resoldering a "cold" surface mount connection is no big deal. I have the tools and skills to do that. Now, I know where to start looking for the trouble area. Thanks David!

Funny story- Several years ago I had a similar problem with a SCSI controller board for a video server made by FAST Electronics Company, a German manufacturer. I went through 3 boards all with the same failure, just quit working after a few weeks. Finally I got pixxed off and decided to examine the board under a magnifying glass and discovered a crystal chip in the oscillator lost one of its connections on the board. Easy fix once found. Resoldered the connection as well as the other 3 pins on the xtal chip and the board was now fixed and is still in my video edit suite today working fine for 12 years! Later that year, I was at NAB and the Fast Company had a booth with the board on display in a glass case. I carefully looked at the board and surprise! It too had that same chip with a crack in the solder connection with a clearly visible broken connection. I grabbed one of the engineers I knew and in the best German I could manage I told him that is the problem I was having by showing him his board on display with the broken connection too. Well the rest of the scene was real entertaining as several engineers and Fast management all began yelling at each other with some profanities and high emotions in German.

Cold surface mount solder is nothing new and apparantly can be an assembly line production replicated problem.


----------



## DonLandis

wje said:


> There was at least one run of HDMI interface boards for the HR10 that were susceptible to solder joints at the connector cracking. I fixed mine, but one enterprising company would resolder the board for those that were teeny-tiny solder joint challenged.


Good to know too. 
Mine was the simple spring clip so it was a very quick fix. BTW- My Hr10-250 is completely modified with all external hard drive array now. Warranty? what me worry?


----------



## David_Levin

sNEIRBO said:


> I don't get this issue . . . once you install an HDMI into the port there's no more stress on the connection. It's not like these things are inside moving vehicles being bumped, wiggled and shaken all over the place.


Have you read this entire thread. Specifically my earlier post:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=632461&postcount=113

I think the solder joint is under stress as soon the the retaining screw is attached to the back of the chassis. Then, there's potential movement because of heating cooling between the chassis and the PCB.

Leaving out the back screw is an option, but the might be worse since then the connector is not protected aganist cable movement. That analysis is the job for the mechanical engineer.


----------



## David_Levin

DonLandis said:


> Thanks James- I missed David's Post. I trust anything David says because he is a member of unique no-nonsense gettr done people.


Gee Don, I'm blushing.

I try, but I can certainly be wrong too (after designing 4 ASICS I know to be humble). I use my real name here, and consider that with everything I post.

I'm trying to be quiet here since we're on thin ice with discussions on opening up the box. I've avoided comments about the legality of self-repair since that would be the topic of another thread (which would rapidly grow well into my point of boredom).

I've seen reports from 3-4 people who looked and saw the lifted pins. I haven't seen any reports from people with previously working ports who opened the box and didn't have lifted pins.

But, the sample size of people looking is still pretty small.

In any case, the failure rate seems to be very high. Hopefully Dish is working on a redesign. My problem with swapping the box is the pain of clearing off the HDD. I'd rather wait until the problem is really fixed. Dish could tell us this, but they probably will not.

It's sure gonna be interesting when that next software is released, and all the HDMI ports don't come back to life.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

David_Levin said:


> I'm trying to be quiet here since we're on thin ice with discussions on opening up the box. I've avoided comments about the legality of self-repair since that would be the topic of another thread (which would rapidly grow well into my point of boredom).


David,

I apologize if my comments came across trying to limit discussion. The ONLY thing that I'm concerned about is users who don't know what they're doing trying to fix something themselves and screwing everything up, especially if they don't own the box.

Heck, the more this is talked about, the sooner it's going to get fixed, and maybe CSRs reading this thread will learn something.


----------



## rice0209

I am curious as to what process Dish employs to inform its CSR's of their troubleshooting and tech support information. I called last night for a replacement after dealing with another tech through e-mail for the last week. The tech I got on the phone stated that the problem was an "incompatability between the receiver and the television." He did not seem comfortable talking about the issue for whatever reason so I did not press him any further.

His statement was extremely general and shed no light on the issue. I don't expect every CSR to know all the answers. I just wonder how dish communicates the latest information. It still seems as if the CSR's don't know that the dish chat ever happened. Public statements like these should definitely be part of the updates the CSR's should receive.

I am generally very happy with Dish tech support except when the problem comes down to specifics. In this area, I think Dish is extremely lacking. It seems like you have to call eight different times to find a CSR who wants to answer your questions or you have to get escalated to a manager who still may or may not have any idea about the issues. I hope Dish is not resting on their laurels of being a top cust serv company and that they continue to improve on their weaknesses.

It would be nice to call in and find out exactly what dish is doing to fix this problem instead of playing the "just wait and see game."


----------



## wje

As I've said somewhere, sometime before (hey, if it was before yesterday, it's the distant past):

The 622 HDMI issue is almost certainly a combination of factors:

1) a hardware issue
2) a 622 software issue
3) a problem with HDMI compatibility on the OTHER end
4) the rather poor HDMI specification itself

D* went through all of these with the HR10. They also said the same thing E*'s been saying: "it's a software problem, we're working on a fix".

D* was right some of the time; it just took them a *long* time to finally admit that, in some cases, there was a hardware problem. But, it wasn't always a hardware problem, and it wasn't always a D* software problem.

I'm not exactly sure what the CSR's should say in a case like this. If they say OK, it's hardware, swap out your box, and it still doesn't work because of 2) or 3), customers are mad. If they say OK, it's software, here's the fix, and it still doesn't work because of 1), customers are mad. Even if they fix 1) and 2), and your problem is because of 3), you're still mad.

Here's wje's patented HDMI troubleshooting procedure, which is just commonsense troubleshooting:

If your HDMI port has been working fine for a while, just stops working, and no reboots, TV power off/on, or input change fixes it, most likely it's hardware.

If your HDMI mostly works, but, depending upon the order in which things are turned on sometimes doesn't work, and turning the TV off and on or changing its inputs fixes it, the problem is software, potentially at either end. (not necessarily the 622; the HDMI spec is rather loose when it comes to compatibility testing. The handshake that occurs between HDMI devices is complex, and a lot of manufacturers have had problems with compatibility between devices made by other manufacturers)

If your HDMI never worked, could be either case. Try another manufacturer's HDMI input, if possible.

Of course, even if you identify the cause of the problem, there's no guarantee you can get it fixed, especially if it's a compatibility issue and the problem is on the other end. Check with the manufacturer of your TV and see if they have released an HDMI upgrade; several have.


----------



## JohnL

James Long said:


> There have been software problems and continue to be software problems with Vizio TVs (per the chat). While the concept of "if it goes out it must be hardware" was presented they also mentioned that they are adjusting software to handle TVs that don't 100% meet the HDMI standard. Say they get a fix for Vizio ... that is a software change that I sure hope doesn't break another set that already works.
> 
> Has the 622 been tested with every HDMI HDTV interface on the market? Has dish seen every type of interface that a ViP-622 has to identify and talk to? Is there a chance that there is another "Vizio" type set out there that E* is not aware of? I would not rule it out (although modules tend to show up across several versions and manufacturers so it's not completely unimaginable).


James,

I also heard on the Tech Chat that Vizio TV's and the HDMI are problematic. I'm glad to say that my Vizio P50HDM is working perfectly with the HDMI cable connected. I have experienced problems once or twice but only if powering up the TV if the receiver is OFF. A couple of times once the Receiver was "ON" the TV was blank. Both times if I powered off the TV and then back on, no problems. I'm guessing both times was a Handshaking problem as I was hearing Audio, but no video via the HDMI cable.

Like I said this has happened twice in the three weeks I've had my New TV and 622. My P50HDM is a "G" model, one of the most recently manufactured.

John


----------



## rice0209

I am just looking for a little clarification. 

For those of you who have better access to "inside" dish info, has dish ever stated clearly that the problem is a faulty connector which is being redesigned and will be available to dish 622 owners?

I have heard many of you reference the dish chat where he talks about an "under engineered connector" etc, but has Dish said that this is our problem and we will re-engineer it and get them out to the customers?


----------



## James Long

From the wording of the chat (the latest tech forum) it sounded like E* was waiting for the industry to come up with a better connector. They don't build the connectors, they just buy them.


----------



## rice0209

I see, thank you James.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the connector itself, even if it is attached to a separate board or the main board, should only have to withstand minimal forces and that it should be up to the manufacturer or assembler of all the components in the receiver to come up with a quality solution of attaching that connector to the chassis?

I know I might sound like a broken record, but both my hitachi projector and onkyo receiver have hdmi ports that have withstood heavy duty monster 400 cables hanging off of them. My onkyo even had a 4 inch hdmi to dvi monster adapter with an even heavier monster dvi cable attached to it as well.

Looking at my onkyo, the card that supports the hdmi has two screws that hold the hdmi card into the steel chassis. This thing is a rock and impossible to move without excessive force being applied.

I assume that Dish has probably subbed the manufacturing of the 622 to a company like JVC or someone else, and could probably force them to redesign the connection under their contract which I would also assume demands a functional and quality product.

I guess the question still is whether Dish believes that this is the cause of failure hardware wise or not. I personally don't think it is a problem with HDMI, just the specific installation of a pre-made hdmi module. I am sure the spec calls for the connector to be able to withstand at least a minimum amount of forces being applied to it, but the spec certainly cannot predict what type of chassis the modules will be applied too.


----------



## James Long

I can only report what they say. David Levin's description of his repair is interesting. Perhaps they will come up with a better connector from their vendor or another vendor or a better way of using the connector they have - perhaps there is more going on with connectors than David has noticed. It is probably best not to speculate too much more.


----------



## rice0209

I apologize. My question was not directed specifically towards you but to anyone who might be in the know.

As far as speculation, thats what these boards are for. There would not be much to discuss otherwise.

Taking a look at the back of my 622, there seems to be one screw that goes from the outside of the chassis into a metal retainer for the connector. Since my port has never worked, i re-inserted the cable and there was definitely movement. Whether that movement is more than should be allowed would be something that I could only find out if I opened the box. I have a replacement arriving shortly and do not want to risk anything. 

Does anyone have any pictures of the connector inside the case that they would be willing to share?


----------



## MarkInDenver

So ultimately, to get to the bottom of this issue, there should be a diagnostic to "ping" the HDMI port and see if it responds.

You have diagnostics for temperature, which obviously implies that Dish was concerned about how hot the unit runs and built in a thermometer, so if they really want to test for hardware failure you wouldn't think it would be that hard to build in.


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## UURickRose

Just wanted to let everyone know - I had an issue with my 622 HDMI port - just stopped working in the middle of programming one day. Hard reboot saved me for another few days... but then it failed completely. Moved to component ports and called Dish for support. Was told the same thing as everyone else "this is a software issue, we're working on it".

Well, given that I knew this wasn't a software issue, I wouldn't stop there. I called back into support and explained that it couldn't be a software issue because it was already working and the cable certainly wasn't bad because I could plug other devices into the cable and it worked just fine. Their response on this was to tell me that it is a HDMI compatibility issue and that the standards weren't set and therefore, it was probably my HDMI cable and as such they've subsequently began to remove HDMI ports from all 622s that go out the door. Yeah whatever. 

Again, I pushed back - saying it wasn't the cord - and continued to push for a replacement (RMA). CSR said no a few times... .all the while going back and forth with a supervisor but never once allowing me to be conferenced in. I just told the CSR I understood they weren't in a position to help me by accoomodating my request for the RMA but insisted that all I wanted to do was to speak to that supervisor myself. After a pretty drawn out process, they finally agreed to let me speak to the supervisor. I went back and forth with that supervisor a few times and pretty much told them I was going back to cable if they wouldn't agree to RMA my box (which was under warranty I might add). Finally, they conceded but continued to tell me it wouldn't work. 

Got my unit yesterday, plugged it in - worked with HDMI port right away.

Morale of the story - If you unit worked before and then suddenly stopped working, its more then likely a hardware issue. Escalate politely and ask for the return authorization on your unit. This is costly for Dish - clearly they're going to push back whenever possible. If you really want a replacement box, you're just going to have to work for it. The squeaky wheel usually gets oiled. It did for me.

Question is - how long will it last? My unit was extremely hot (on the outside) so I bet this is an issue with something getting overhheated as other people have eluded to in this thread. All I can do is do what I can do - I'm going to buy a fan and have it blow on the rear and top of the unit at all times.


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## Stewart Vernon

I don't know how hot these units are getting, since I don't have one myself... but I have seen other types of computer technology that actually got so hot (either CPU or hard drive) that they actually could cause components on the board to become de-soldered. I wonder if it is possible that some of these units are running so hot that they create the problem by weakening a connection somewhere. Wouldn't surprise me, and it wouldn't be a unique thing just to Dish.

I had a computer several years ago where the hard drive (Differential SCSI) ran so hot that it actually was melting the glue in the ribbon cable and caused the cable to begin to separate and unwind... and then I started getting odd random hard drive failures that made no sense... and after replacing the cable a couple of times I finally started to realize that the design of the computer case simply was insufficient to cool the inside enough to keep me from going through hard drive cables!


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## normang

The cooling issue has been brought up in other threads, this link is to one users solution to the cooling issue..

http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...uct_info&manufacturers_id=25&products_id=1448

May consider one myself.


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## motrac

HDMe said:


> I don't know how hot these units are getting!


i just looked my temps up in the diagnostic menu and they are high:118.7
and low:82.5.
118 degrees can melt surface mount solder.


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## DonLandis

motrac said:


> i just looked my temps up in the diagnostic menu and they are high:118.7
> and low:82.5.
> 118 degrees can melt surface mount solder.


Ridiculous!

Solder melts at about 375 degrees F.

The reason why these surface mount connections are coming "unsoldered" is because they were not properly solder fluxed in the manufacturing process. The defect is called a "cold solder joint" which can produce a good electrical connection but not a good mechanical joint that will remain a good electrical connection for the life of the equipment. Mechanical stress enen that of heat / cooling - expansion /contraction of the joint is enough stress to break a cold solder joint. The solder never melts, just breaks as in cracks apart.


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## Mark Lamutt

Thank you Don. Once again, the voice of reason.


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## Mx_Rider

My HDMI died yesterday, dish is sending out another unit. This makes box #3... First one, power didn't come on. Second box had the reboot problems.

One last time with the 622. If not HR20.


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## GATER

I just started using the hdmi port on my 622. I have it hooked up via a 50 ft blue jeans hdmi cable. No problems so far. I was concerned that the 50 ft run might be a problem, but its working great so far. Hdmi is noticably better than component for my setup. (622 to ae-900u pj).


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## DonLandis

Gater-

I think 50 ft is not an issue with HDMI spec but it was with DVI. Only special cables could handle that length. Here's what you should observe if you do have problems. the video will have little sparkles in the image, flashes of point light at random in the picture. The only correction for this is to use an expensive HDMI repeater if 50 ft. length can't be shortened. I'm not familiar with the brand cable you have but higher quality cable designed for the HDMI spec 1.3 frequency bandwidth may also help.


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## GATER

The rep at Blue Jeans cable said that the 50 ft run should not be a problem with 720p/1080i video feeds. So far, it working great. He did state that it might have a problem with 1080p at that distance. When it comes to that point i'll just have to use a repeater or amp to boost the signal. The cable i got is cl2 in wall rated as well. It was $105 shipped.


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## rice0209

My third 622 finally works with HDMI. I have always used a 50ft monster cable without problems. My 622 has been working on hdmi for about 3 weeks now and i couldn't be happier. The signal is so much cleaner than the 921. I had my 921 hooked up with DVI and up until this recent 622 started working i was using component. Both the 921 - DVI and the 622 - component had a lot of noise in the signal but the hdmi connection is so clear and much more vibrant. I love it and am glad that it works. Now i guess i just ahve to pray that it does not break. 

My problem must have been hardware related.

My first two 622's never worked once with hdmi. Those two units spanned software updates from L3.56 - L3.60. 

The new replacement unit was factory set for the software and worked before and after the software updates were applied. I was so worried it would go out while the software was installing since i heard so many stories that said as much. This makes me extremely happy as hdmi was one of the main reasons i paid to upgrade from the 921. I hope it works for a long, long time now.


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## wje

GATER said:


> The rep at Blue Jeans cable said that the 50 ft run should not be a problem with 720p/1080i video feeds. So far, it working great. He did state that it might have a problem with 1080p at that distance. When it comes to that point i'll just have to use a repeater or amp to boost the signal...


The maximum cable length depends upon a number of factors, such as the performance of the HDMI tranceivers. Although the spec does call out the performance characteristics of all the parts, including cabling, there will always be some mfrs that do just enough to meet the spec, and some that will produce components that will outperform the requirements. The HDMI spec doesn't actually call out a maximum length (intentionally, according to them). 50 feet is pretty close to a reasonable limit. There are a number of companies that make repeaters, and not too expensive, either.

Don't try anything like that length with component, though!


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## rice0209

wje said:


> The maximum cable length depends upon a number of factors, such as the performance of the HDMI tranceivers. Although the spec does call out the performance characteristics of all the parts, including cabling, there will always be some mfrs that do just enough to meet the spec, and some that will produce components that will outperform the requirements. The HDMI spec doesn't actually call out a maximum length (intentionally, according to them). 50 feet is pretty close to a reasonable limit. There are a number of companies that make repeaters, and not too expensive, either.
> 
> Don't try anything like that length with component, though!


I am not sure if it is in the "official" spec, but i found the 50 ft limit on the HDMI website. You are right though that some manufacturers make cables that barely meet spec and some manufacturers will make cables that don't meet the spec. The official HDMI logo on the cable or package is a good start.


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## humara

i'd hate to run 100 ft of cable through a wall only to find out it doesn't work.

but duh, i guess i would test the cable first.

something like this:

100 ft cl2 certified hdmi. i think it was $130.
monoprice


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## gintzj

the great HDMI will not work in the 211 and dish will not support it

vip 211 needs the component cables to work

thank you


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## James Long

There are issues with HDMI ... but it DOES work on the VIP-211. It isn't like no receiver out there is working. :nono:


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## Ken Wilhelm

My second 622 HDMI output worked for seven months then failed. When I had no HDMI output I could wiggle and remove the cable a few times then work for the rest of the day. Next morning - no HDMI signal - then after wiggling cable have an output signal for another day. Now nothing works. Called DISH and they are sending me another 622 ( number three). My HDMI cables are fine - they both work with my DVD player. I do love my 622 when it's working. Component out to main HDTV, HDMI to Bedroom HDTV and 2TV to second bedroom. I did have to buy a 6.3 IR/UHF PRO remote to use in the bedroom HDMI HDTV.


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## comshark

For those of you who may still have an HDMI failure I discovered a way to temporarily resolve the issue and attempted to document the work around with Dish Advanced Support. If you go to the diagnostic menu and select HDMI you will see the test report an issue. From that same screen is a reset option. Since you will have no picture via the HDMI cable, I ran this procedure from tuner 2. Once you have selected the HDMI reset option from the diagnostic menu. your HDMI output will be operational (until the receiver is rebooted or enters standby).

Not the most elegant solution, but if you have no other way to watch TV until they send you a replacement receiver this is great.

Let me know if this helps anyone else.


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## ChuckA

According to received reports this does seem to help some people with HDMI issues. It does not work for everyone however. If the connection joint is broken software is not going to fix it.


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## Duncan

My replacement unit is still working after a year (fingers crossed, knock wood, genuflect) Not to say it hasn't exhibited a myriad of other glitches...


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## jjkm

Does anyone know if Dish beefed up the HDMI connector on te 722? I am convinced that the connector in my unit is the problem and that a replacement unit will eventually have the same problem, unless the connection is made stronger.


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## Jim5506

The pictures I've seen look much more sturdy. The entire HDMI box now has a metal cover that is soldered to a through the board connection. Hopefully it is better.

IMHO the original design cold soldered connections supported by a screw to the box was a failure looking to happen. Heating and cooling cycles put stress on the cold solder joints, plus the stress of the plug itself.


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## jjkm

Thanks, jim5506. Maybe I will upgrade sometime in the future.


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## droot

I don't know if someone has posted this before but maybe the HDMI port problem is related to electrostatic discharge (ESD). I am an Electrical Engineer and back last fall there seemed to be a few articles appearing in periodicals I receive about ESD protection of HDMI ports about the same time I started reading posts on the 622 HDMI port failure. Coincidence? Maybe... Here are a couple of links I quickly looked up:

audiodesignline.com/howto/196800555

embedded.com/columns/technicalinsights/201201480?cid=RSSfeed_embedded_news&_requestid=808629

(Add www in front of links above as I can't post URLs because I haven't had 5 posts yet)

Maybe ya'll should wear a wrist strap when plugging and unplugging your cables or when touching your tv or 622 (yeah right!)...

Sorry if this has been posted before.


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## David_Levin

droot said:


> I don't know if someone has posted this before but maybe the HDMI port problem is related to electrostatic discharge (ESD).


Nah, ESD doesn't lift pins off the PCB.


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## puckwithahalo

(these are the current official t/s steps at DISH)

1) turn off receiver and tv

2) disconnect and reconnect the hdmi cable

3) if issue is fixed, but comes back, the box needs to be replaced

4) if still not working, unplug the TV from the electrical outlet for about a minute and plug it back in

5) if that fixed the problem it is a compatibility issue, and you should call to have an agent submit a report to engineering with the make and model of your tv so they're aware that that particular model is having an issue and can get it fixed 

6) if it is still not working, the unit needs to be replaced.

other things to try are

1) try a different HDMI cable, or see if the same cable and port work with another device (DVD player, another receiver, etc) 

2) try hooking up to a different tv that's the same model to rule out the software issue (i used to work at Sears, and a couple times had people call and ask if they could try hooking a box up to our tv's to see if they worked, never had a problem with it, try giving a couple electronics places a call and see if they'll let you test on one of theirs)


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