# NYC local channels in Bucks County, PA



## PP123 (Jan 9, 2016)

I live in Bucks County, PA (Newtown PA to be exact) which is about 60 miles south of NYC. MANY of my neighbors including myself travel to NYC for work on a daily basis. We would all benefits from having some local NYC channels (FOX, ABC, WPIX, WWOR, etc.) so we are aware of any travel delays, police activity, weather related transit delays, etc. However, we only get Philadelphia channels (Philly is about 30 miles south of us). Many counties adjacent to us (which are just 10 minutes away such as mercer county, NJ which includes Princeton and Trenton) get both Philly and NYC channels as both as on the significantly viewed list. I am wondering if anyone in Bucks County was successful in getting NYC local channels added/ included in their cable or satellite package. Alternatively, I am wondering if anyone would be interested in getting these added and maybe together, we can make it happen. Just some additional comments/ questions from my end: 

1. Due to the proximately of NYC and the fact that counties just 5 miles away get NYC channels, we are physically able to get it. 

2. I hear there is something about getting "waivers" but not sure how that would work since we do get local Philly channels from our providers.

3. I also heard about the "significantly viewed list" but not sure if this rule only applies to satellite companies or cable as well. Can cable companies provide any channels available to them and if so, how do I convince them? I currently have Verizon.

Anyone help or guidance would be appreciated. 

Thanks!


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

For DirecTV, waviers only really work for areas where locals aren't carried or you have line of site issues and your locals are on 119 (which doesn't apply for you since the Philly locals are on the main 101 satellite). They can try requesting a wavier anyway, but the odds are it will be quickly denied.

No NYC channels are on the significantly viewed list for Bucks county, so it looks like you're out of luck with satellite. It's usually only bordering counties of a DMA that have neighboring locals on the significantly viewed list, the closer you get to the center of the DMA the less likely you are to have them on the list. Cable has some more freedom to carry stations not on the list, but then syndex comes into play where if your locals request it, all the programming they air has to be blacked out on the other station. Here in Monroe county it got so bad with WPIX, who's not on the list, that the cable company dropped it entirely.


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

Below is the list for significantly viewed for Bucks County. I am looking into this a little more to see if there are any other options. Just for clarification, the people you refer to who get both are they DirecTV customers or Cable customers of some sort? 

Bucks
KYW-TV, 3, Philadelphia, PA
WPVI-TV, 6, Philadelphia, PA (formerly WFIL)
WCAU, 10, Philadelphia, PA
WPHL-TV, 17, Philadelphia, PA
WTXF-TV, 29, Philadelphia, PA (formerly WTAF)
WGTW, 48, Phhiladelphia, PA (formerly WKBS-TV)
+WPSG, 57, Philadelphia, PA (formerly WGBS)


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

Here is a little more on options. If you were to buy a large enough antenna, it looks like you could get some of the NYC channels for free. I could recommend an antenna as well if interested. DirecTV makes a device called an AM21 that allows you to plug your antenna directly into it and then plug that into your DirecTV DVR. It allows you to add those stations into the guide data and to record off those channels as well just like normal. The up font cost would be a little bit but in the end once it was paid for, you would never have to pay for the channels so its no a bad option. The address below will take you to the results of this search. What can make the search results better would be if you use your specific address and also if you can put the antenna up higher as well. I am still looking into this but let me know if this is something you are interested in.

*http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d513436d298f61c*


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

joshjr said:


> Below is the list for significantly viewed for Bucks County. I am looking into this a little more to see if there are any other options. Just for clarification, the people you refer to who get both are they DirecTV customers or Cable customers of some sort?


Where he lives none of the cable companies carry NYC locals (it doesn't help that the local cable company is Comcast which was notorious for dropping any neighboring locals the moment they acquire a system). It's the county over in Mercer County, NJ where the local Cablevision systems have NYC locals in addition to the Philly locals.


----------



## cpalmer2k (May 24, 2010)

joshjr said:


> Here is a little more on options. If you were to buy a large enough antenna, it looks like you could get some of the NYC channels for free. I could recommend an antenna as well if interested. DirecTV makes a device called an AM21 that allows you to plug your antenna directly into it and then plug that into your DirecTV DVR. It allows you to add those stations into the guide data and to record off those channels as well just like normal. The up font cost would be a little bit but in the end once it was paid for, you would never have to pay for the channels so its no a bad option. The address below will take you to the results of this search. What can make the search results better would be if you use your specific address and also if you can put the antenna up higher as well. I am still looking into this but let me know if this is something you are interested in.
> 
> *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d513436d298f61c*


This is your best bet... like Josh suggested please post your TV Fool results on here (it will conceal your actual address). Honestly if you want to come out on the cheap you likely could buy one of the cheap Stellar Labs VHF only antennas for between $25-$30 and pick up WABC & WPIX. A good outdoor long range antenna with a pre-amp would likely give you most of the NYC locals.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

Depending on where he is, he might need something really directional since right to the north WBRE and WYOU from Scranton are on 11 and 13 and could cause problems when you try to receive WPIX and WNET to the northeast. WMCN on 44 might cause some problems with WNYW, WFPA on 28 might cause some problems with WNBC, WZPA on 33 might cause some problems with WCBS, and the low power MundoMax affiliate nearby in New Jersey on channel 38 might cause problems with WWOR. WNEP also has an Allentown translator on channel 7, but it shouldn't be that much of a problem for WABC since it barely makes it past the Lehigh county border.

Depending on your tuner you might also have some channel conflicts because of KJWP on virtual channel 2 and WACP on virtual channel 4, some tuners can handle it and just show multiple 2-1's and 4-1's, others might end up mapping it to the RF number or just give them fake numbers from 70 and higher, the really bad ones might ignore one of them.

You might need something really directional, and point it more towards Long Island instead of NYC so the Scranton stations and Philly/southern NJ stations don't interfere.


----------



## PP123 (Jan 9, 2016)

joshjr said:


> Below is the list for significantly viewed for Bucks County. I am looking into this a little more to see if there are any other options. Just for clarification, the people you refer to who get both are they DirecTV customers or Cable customers of some sort?
> 
> Bucks
> KYW-TV, 3, Philadelphia, PA
> ...


Its the next county over in Mercer County, NJ... for years people have been moving there so they get both NY and Philly channels on their significantly viewed list (regardless of cable or sat.)... Now, that migration is happening in Bucks county in a big way (and has been for years).. Any way to get some of these added to our significantly viewed list?


----------



## PP123 (Jan 9, 2016)

joshjr said:


> Here is a little more on options. If you were to buy a large enough antenna, it looks like you could get some of the NYC channels for free. I could recommend an antenna as well if interested. DirecTV makes a device called an AM21 that allows you to plug your antenna directly into it and then plug that into your DirecTV DVR. It allows you to add those stations into the guide data and to record off those channels as well just like normal. The up font cost would be a little bit but in the end once it was paid for, you would never have to pay for the channels so its no a bad option. The address below will take you to the results of this search. What can make the search results better would be if you use your specific address and also if you can put the antenna up higher as well. I am still looking into this but let me know if this is something you are interested in.
> 
> *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d513436d298f61c*


Here are my results: *http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d51344b9e96fe5a*

I am open to an antenna BUT I live in a townhome community and they are strict on what can be put on the roof.. I can still do it but it cant be obviously visible from the roof... Definitely open to suggestions like this... thanks so far for the help! Just an FYI.. I have Verizon but do have extra TVs where I can use an antenna instead.. would be open to switching providers if that would help get the channels.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

The list was originally drafted in 1972, most of it is based on OTA viewing. The list has barely been touched since the 70s outside of some minor additions for newly signed on stations and removals of stations for various reasons. (i.e. For most of the Philly DMA the only addition to the list is WPSG since it didn't sign on until 1981) For Mercer County all of those NYC stations were on the list when it was first drafted in 1972.

The list was originally a list of stations that count as local for various counties and communities since cable providers must provide a portion of their lineup to local stations, later it also became a list of stations that are exempt from syndex blackouts. (i.e. here in Monroe county while the local Scranton stations can ask for blackouts on WFMZ, WPIX and WWOR, they cannot ask for blackouts on WCBS, KYW, WNBC, WNYW, WPVI or WCAU) In the mid 00s, atfer a new satellite locals law was passed, it also became the list of the only neighboring locals that satellite providers can offer (as opposed to cable where they've been free to carry other neighboring stations not on the list as long as they blackout any programming local stations request)

Even if they were to add them to the significantly viewed list for your county, there's nothing to make it mandatory for the satellite providers to pick them up. In Mercer County, the only channels they get via satellite are the Philly locals, only Cablevision carries the NYC stations. And since your local cable company is Comcast, which is famous for not carrying neighboring locals, they probably won't pick them up either.


Looking at the list for your area, nearly every NYC station is in the red and flagged for adjacent or co-channel conflicts, it would really take some work with a directional antenna. (Which also reduces the chances of them ever being added to the list for your area) Depending on what your deed is for the townhome, the rule preventing you from installing an antenna on the roof might be invalid. If you're responsible for maintaining the roof in most cases they can't prevent you from installing an antenna or a dish to get the service you want. "We don't want to see it" is no longer a valid reason and there are some lawyers who specialize in things like this who are willing to work pro-bono on your behalf if a community gives you problems, usually one letter from them pointing out the portion of the law they're violating is enough to get them to backoff. Now if it's a common area where the community maintains the roof, then they can block it under certain circumstances. (Circumstances that might already be voided if they're willing to let you install an antenna on the roof)


----------



## PP123 (Jan 9, 2016)

KyL416 said:


> The list was originally drafted in 1972, most of it is based on OTA viewing. The list has barely been touched since the 70s outside of some minor additions for newly signed on stations and removals of stations for various reasons. (i.e. For most of the Philly DMA the only addition to the list is WPSG since it didn't sign on until 1981) For Mercer County all of those NYC stations were on the list when it was first drafted in 1972.
> 
> The list was originally a list of stations that count as local for various counties and communities since cable providers must provide a portion of their lineup to local stations, later it also became a list of stations that are exempt from syndex blackouts. (i.e. here in Monroe county while the local Scranton stations can ask for blackouts on WFMZ, WPIX and WWOR, they cannot ask for blackouts on WCBS, KYW, WNBC, WNYW, WPVI or WCAU) In the mid 00s, atfer a new satellite locals law was passed, it also became the list of the only neighboring locals that satellite providers can offer (as opposed to cable where they've been free to carry other neighboring stations not on the list as long as they blackout any programming local stations request)
> 
> ...


Just some additional data points:

1. I do have a deck and am allowed to put a dish on the deck..

2. Am willing to fight to put an antenna on the roof IF I know it works.. can anyone recommend any that would work based on my TV Fool results? I can always test it from a high floor window, right?


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

PP123 said:


> Just some additional data points:
> 
> 1. I do have a deck and am allowed to put a dish on the deck..
> 
> 2. Am willing to fight to put an antenna on the roof IF I know it works.. can anyone recommend any that would work based on my TV Fool results? I can always test it from a high floor window, right?


The large directional antennas are like 10 foot long and 6 foot wide or something crazy like that. I would think something like that would be what you need. I send you a link to a Channel Master 3020 I believe it is that would get the job done.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

If your deck is facing the right direction and is high enough so there's no obstructions like another bulding or trees in the direction you need to point, that could work. You would need a clear shot towards NYC.


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

KyL416 said:


> The list was originally drafted in 1972, most of it is based on OTA viewing. *The list has barely been touched since the 70s* outside of some minor additions for newly signed on stations and removals of stations for various reasons. (i.e. For most of the Philly DMA the only addition to the list is WPSG since it didn't sign on until 1981) For Mercer County all of those NYC stations were on the list when it was first drafted in 1972.
> 
> The list was originally a list of stations that count as local for various counties and communities since cable providers must provide a portion of their lineup to local stations, later it also became a list of stations that are exempt from syndex blackouts. (i.e. here in Monroe county while the local Scranton stations can ask for blackouts on WFMZ, WPIX and WWOR, they cannot ask for blackouts on WCBS, KYW, WNBC, WNYW, WPVI or WCAU) In the mid 00s, atfer a new satellite locals law was passed, it also became the list of the only neighboring locals that satellite providers can offer (as opposed to cable where they've been free to carry other neighboring stations not on the list as long as they blackout any programming local stations request)


I guess I will disagree here. I think there are changes to the list almost every year. Things that would change it are new stations coming in that quickly show significant viewership in near by DMA's, more people putting up antenna's in a certain area that shows an increase in viewership in out of market locals and possibly one of the big 4 leaving a DMA. Also DMA's get redefined sometimes as well.

I live in the NE corner of Oklahoma and and Neilson says I should get my locals from the Joplin/Pittsburg DMA which means my locals are from Kansas and Missouri (two states I do not live in). I have been working with my congressman for years trying to get this changed. Its not fair to force me to watch out of state locals. More than that, we have had alot of near by tornados in the last few years. This last year we were under warning, the sirens were going off in my town and the CBS affiliate cut in for like 2 minutes to talk and then went back to live programming becase we were the only place under the warning currently. All this while the Tulsa DMA had been on the air for 2 hours straight with advanced warnings and coverage. Tulsa also stayed on for an hour after the weather left their coverage area which is super helpful.

There is a reason that alot of people in my town falsify their address to get the Tulsa locals. I chose to not do that. I looked and found the Significantly Viewed loop hole and exploited it to my advantage. I contacted the GM of all 3 Tulsa stations that qualified and told them what I wanted and why I wanted it. They said it was doable, they just had to get a deal in place with DirecTV. I didnt know if it would get done because the Significantly Viewed list works by county meaning it would work for me but would it work for enough people for DirecTV to wanna do it. It wasnt long after talking with the GM's that 2 of those Tulsa stations starting providing their channel to DirecTV customers in my county. One major thing to note on Significantly Viewed stations is that there are no blackout restrictions for duplicate programming as they are considered Significantly Viewed in my DMA already.

I am real familiar with how all this works. I have direct contacts at the FCC and Neilson that I use when needed. I wanted to do something that would help others benefit from it as well and not just me. Now even though people in my town wont know that they have Tulsa channels because of me, I am comforted knowing that they benefited from my work on this. Most people dont have the knowledge or patience for this stuff to get done. Its slow moving but its well worth it to me.


----------



## cpalmer2k (May 24, 2010)

Like the others I think your chances of getting ALL the NY locals given the property restrictions and interference issues you're dealing with is going to be difficult. My question is, could you be happy with 1 or 2 of the NY stations or do you really want all of them? I think you could easily buy this $25 VHF antenna put it on your deck and likely get WABC, and possibly WPIX. If you want them all you're going to need a much bigger antenna as josh suggested, and might still not pull them all in.


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

cpalmer2k said:


> Like the others I think your chances of getting ALL the NY locals given the property restrictions and interference issues you're dealing with is going to be difficult. My question is, could you be happy with 1 or 2 of the NY stations or do you really want all of them? I think you could easily buy this $25 VHF antenna put it on your deck and likely get WABC, and possibly WPIX. If you want them all you're going to need a much bigger antenna as josh suggested, and might still not pull them all in.


I highly doubt it. The closest of the big 4 is WABC and that chart says its like 57 miles away and 2 Edge from block level. Gonna need something alot stronger than that in my opinion.


----------



## cpalmer2k (May 24, 2010)

I'm looking at the power level of the channel... WABC is much stronger at his location than the others. It works great for me, pulling in our local ABC from 73 miles away and my station is about 10db lower in strength.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

Where are you located though, what's the terrain between you and the station, and how many other stations are on the same channel or are adjacent to that ABC affiliate you get?

The antenna is only one part of the equation. In this area between all of the Scranton, Philly, NYC and all the other low power stations nearby it's very crowded and it will only get worse after the repacking in a few years. Where he lives most of the NYC stations have co-channel and adjacent channel problems that need to be overcome, the low elevation of that town doesn't help either.


----------



## mrknowitall526 (Nov 19, 2014)

Up in the Lehigh Valley, on cable (not satellite) Service Electric, RCN, and Blue Ridge all give a mix of markets. Blue Ridge gets all Philly locals in HD, but Scranton locals can be seen in SD, as well as I believe the CW 11 from NYC. Service Electric used to carry PIX and at one point they did have NBC4. This just happens to be because of our odd geographies here in the Valley.


----------



## PP123 (Jan 9, 2016)

cpalmer2k said:


> Like the others I think your chances of getting ALL the NY locals given the property restrictions and interference issues you're dealing with is going to be difficult. My question is, could you be happy with 1 or 2 of the NY stations or do you really want all of them? I think you could easily buy this $25 VHF antenna put it on your deck and likely get WABC, and possibly WPIX. If you want them all you're going to need a much bigger antenna as josh suggested, and might still not pull them all in.


Thanks, I think 1-2 would be fine for now. I'll take a look at this.. Appreciate the feedback...


----------



## PP123 (Jan 9, 2016)

joshjr said:


> The large directional antennas are like 10 foot long and 6 foot wide or something crazy like that. I would think something like that would be what you need. I send you a link to a Channel Master 3020 I believe it is that would get the job done.


Appreciate this and all your other feedback. I'll see what can be done with the roof mounting situation and/or attic. Too bad there isnt a way to just get these channels from the cable or sat providers.. being a paying customer and all, I would have expected (hoped) that I am entitled to get the channels I want if I pay for them, especially if the providers are capable of delivering them (which they are)...too bad regulations (dictated by marketing/ money) come in the way...


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

PP123 said:


> Appreciate this and all your other feedback. I'll see what can be done with the roof mounting situation and/or attic. Too bad there isnt a way to just get these channels from the cable or sat providers.. being a paying customer and all, I would have expected (hoped) that I am entitled to get the channels I want if I pay for them, especially if the providers are capable of delivering them (which they are)...too bad regulations (dictated by marketing/ money) come in the way...


While I agree with you I understand what happens with this. DirecTV offers the Distant Network Signals (NYC and or LA local channels) to anyone who qualifies and those channels are available nationally. What happens every time the bill comes up to extend the DNS feeds and anyone wants to alter it to allow exceptions there is a hearing with the Committee for Technology where they bring in a rep from DirecTV or Dish, sometimes specific stations or companies that own stations, FCC and someone from the NAB.

The NAB whines that the locals paid for the right to be exclusive in their local area and that they make their money from add revenue that is generated based on the fact that the commercials are reaching their audience in that area. When another signal is allowed in, that is not happening. NAB also says that due to emergency broadcasts, its better to get the stations you are supposed to get.

I dont fully agree with that as stated above, my locals tend not to care about me as I am the only county in this state that they cover. The NAB also says that there should be no distant signals for anyone. the distant signals were designed for people who were missing one of the major affiliates in their market and they didnt want to be denied the right or watching programming due to no fault of their own. Per the NAB they dont care if there is no CBS in your market. They dont think you should get an out of market signal from any provider. That being said, someone usually asks them arnt they the same group that things that artists should not get paid for having their music heard on the radio? They tend not to answer that question.

They are also the group (NAB) that claims there are less blackouts and that the stations dont need anyone stepping in to assist with any local channel negotiations either. Its usually brought up that there was a higher amount of blackouts from this than the last year and the NAB acts like its nothing. In the end the NAB dont care about customers. They care about themselves getting their money and that is it.

It boils down to there are enough rich people that control the politicians so that there are never any changes. This is and was a huge reason why I persued the Significantly Viewed stations here. There was no stopping it if the significantly viewed stations and DirecTV both struck a deal and everyone in my county with DirecTV benefited form it. It was the ultimate win. We now have 2 in state locals from another DMA and no other provider in my county can say they even offer one. If you want in state locals, to know about bad weather before it gets here or better sports options to watch via locals, DirecTV or a huge antenna is the only way to get it in my county.

Not to mention part of the fun of doing this was to stick it to the GM of the CBS and FOX stations in Pittsburg Kansas. That D-bag would never approve my waiver when we didnt have locals in my area. He said he would never do a deal with DirecTV because they lied to him in the past and that was that. I even offered to do the site test as I was pretty sure I would qualify for FOX. When digital became the standard, it wasnt really updated for a long time what the standard was for a site test for a digital signal which to me meant that the station could say the test failed for any reason and get away with it. Both parties had to agree to the tester and I am sure the station would not agree to anyone who would approve me.

Eventually after submitting my own waivers myself on DirecTVs website and resubmitting the same day they were denied, I was granted them. I dont know if someone got sick of seeing my requests or I heard that they let their license with the company that maintains the waivers and it automatically approved me. Waivers for DNS feeds are a pain in the ass. The law is written that if a station does not reply to a waiver request after 30 days the waiver is considered approved. DirecTV says its 45 days but then refuses to approve it even if its not approved after 45 days. I think they dont want to piss off the local affiliate because eventually the contract will be up again and they dont want bad blood at the table.

Any ways, sorry for the long version here. Getting out of market local channels is not super easy when you want someone else to provide them. This is why antennas exist. It is also one of those things that if you want something done about it, your gonna have to work on it yourself and push and work hard to hopefully get anything in return.

There was another option not to long ago that might be worth reading up on. The below company wass offering NYC locals to people for a monthly subscription fee. I know they lost in court though and suspended service. It appears now though that they were bought by TiVo so they must of thought they could do something with it. Might look into that more and see what came of that and if there is a new option there that would work for you. Dont forget slingboxes as well. There are options. Its a matter of how much you are willing to spend and or how much time you are willing to spend to get what you want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aereo


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

joshjr said:


> While I agree with you I understand what happens with this. DirecTV offers the Distant Network Signals (NYC and or LA local channels) to anyone who qualifies ...


Under current law the customer is considered served if there is an in market affiliate. If Bucks County PA has a local affiliate there can be no distant of that network. Limited grandfathering is allowed for customers who got the service when they qualified but every time the law is adjusted less people qualify. The best one can expect is that congress scratches out the old expiration date for distants and writes in a new one. Expecting congress to lift restrictions on distants is vain.



joshjr said:


> The below company wass offering NYC locals to people for a monthly subscription fee.


Aereo offered several markets before they were shut down for copyright violation but they never intended to offer distant stations. They limited their services to people within each DMA, so unless the customer committed fraud Aereo would not sell NYC locals to customers outside of the NYC market. (The same applied in the other markets they served.)

What got them shut down was not getting permission from the stations for their content. On satellite and cable stations have been given the right to refuse rebroadcast or the right to demand rebroadcast. Stations choosing the right to refuse (consent to carry) usually ask for something in return. Money is common. Aereo did not ask for permission to rebroadcast the local signals, let alone give the stations anything in exchange for such permission.

Perhaps under new ownership Aereo will return and operate within the law. But their service was not distant channels. They did not offer NYC locals to Bucks County PA and if they follow the laws set forth for cable and satellite they never will.


----------



## cpalmer2k (May 24, 2010)

After looking over DirecTV's significantly viewed list it doesn't appear that the NYC stations are provided as SV'd in any part of the Philadelphia market according to their listings. Cable companies might provide them, but it doesn't look like DirecTV does. The only place I can find any of the NY affiliates being Significantly Viewed stations is in the New Haven, CT market and even then not all of them are.


----------



## PP123 (Jan 9, 2016)

James Long said:


> Under current law the customer is considered served if there is an in market affiliate. If Bucks County PA has a local affiliate there can be no distant of that network. Limited grandfathering is allowed for customers who got the service when they qualified but every time the law is adjusted less people qualify. The best one can expect is that congress scratches out the old expiration date for distants and writes in a new one. Expecting congress to lift restrictions on distants is vain.
> 
> Aereo offered several markets before they were shut down for copyright violation but they never intended to offer distant stations. They limited their services to people within each DMA, so unless the customer committed fraud Aereo would not sell NYC locals to customers outside of the NYC market. (The same applied in the other markets they served.)
> 
> ...


Thanks! I actually have an apartment/ address in the NYC area as well so perhaps that can help in some way with the Aereo suggestion. I just wanted some way to get in Bucks county as well (unfortunately SlingBox wasnt a viable option since the TV is in use at the location as well).


----------



## cpalmer2k (May 24, 2010)

PP123 said:


> Thanks! I actually have an apartment/ address in the NYC area as well so perhaps that can help in some way with the Aereo suggestion. I just wanted some way to get in Bucks county as well (unfortunately SlingBox wasnt a viable option since the TV is in use at the location as well).


You mentioned you have Verizon as your TV provider at your location, I assume you're using cable at the NYC apartment location as well?


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BTW: Aereo is out of business (as noted, their legal concerns were greater than where they provided service).

Without the stations being on the current "Significantly Viewed" list for your county DIRECTV cannot provide the stations (unlike a cable operator who can provide stations that are not on the SV list but generally doesn't unless they are close stations). Even when stations are on the list carriage is not required by satellite (but is required by cable).

We could use an overhaul of the laws that cover retransmission by cable and satellite but that will not be soon in coming. These "cable can/satellite cannot" "cable must/satellite cannot" type of disparages will continue. In your situation it appears no one is providing NYC to your county. Which certainly does not encourage other carriers to compete by adding NYC locals (if allowed by law).


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

James Long said:


> BTW: Aereo is out of business (as noted, their legal concerns were greater than where they provided service).
> 
> Without the stations being on the current "Significantly Viewed" list for your county DIRECTV cannot provide the stations (unlike a cable operator who can provide stations that are not on the SV list but generally doesn't unless they are close stations). *Even when stations are on the list carriage is not required by satellite (but is required by cable).*
> 
> We could use an overhaul of the laws that cover retransmission by cable and satellite but that will not be soon in coming. These "cable can/satellite cannot" "cable must/satellite cannot" type of disparages will continue. In your situation it appears no one is providing NYC to your county. Which certainly does not encourage other carriers to compete by adding NYC locals (if allowed by law).


I dont think this is true. Where I live, three of the big four from the next closest DMA (Tulsa) are on that list for my county and the cable company in town carries none of them. They used to but have not carried even one in the last year or maybe even two years. I do agree that the laws/rules are different for cable versus satellite and that is unfair. Hopefully that changes in the future.


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

James Long said:


> Under current law the customer is considered served if there is an in market affiliate. If Bucks County PA has a local affiliate there can be no distant of that network. Limited grandfathering is allowed for customers who got the service when they qualified but every time the law is adjusted less people qualify. The best one can expect is that congress scratches out the old expiration date for distants and writes in a new one. Expecting congress to lift restrictions on distants is vain.
> 
> Aereo offered several markets before they were shut down for copyright violation but they never intended to offer distant stations. They limited their services to people within each DMA, so unless the customer committed fraud Aereo would not sell NYC locals to customers outside of the NYC market. (The same applied in the other markets they served.)
> 
> ...


What is/was unknown here at least on my part was how Aereo handled significantly viewed. I am unsure if they were able to offer stations that were on that lsit in neighboring DMA's. Also there were other reasons Aereo was being discussed but not to violate anything. We do not encourage that on this site.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

James Long said:


> Even when stations are on the list carriage is not required by satellite (but is required by cable).





joshjr said:


> I dont think this is true.


Perhaps oversimplified ... the reason for Significantly Viewed (long before satellite) was to get cable systems to carry local channels that had significant viewership in their communities. The station would prove that they were watched (via OTA antenna) a certain percentage of the audience in that community. They would be added to the list and consider a local station for cable companies in that community.

Unlike satellite, cable companies do not have to carry every local station in their market or community. The number of local stations required is based on the size of the system. Smaller systems may reach that quota before getting to the SV stations. Cable is generally not required to carry stations that do not reach their local receive facility - which may not be in the community served. So "cable must" has a couple of caveats.

When Congress applied the SV list to satellite they made carriage completely optional. Satellite must offer carriage to every station within a DMA but is not required to deliver stations from other DMAs - and are forbidden from delivering stations from other DMAs unless they are on the SV list or fit the narrow definition of a distant (in markets where there is no other affiliate of that network).

Certainly not a level playing field.



joshjr said:


> What is/was unknown here at least on my part was how Aereo handled significantly viewed. I am unsure if they were able to offer stations that were on that lsit in neighboring DMA's.


The way their business ended it turned out that they were not able to offer any stations in any DMA. But the point of my previous post was that Aereo never attempted to deliver distant stations (under the legal definition of an out of market network station). They also never attempted to deliver significantly viewed stations.

The only stations that Aereo ever attempted to offer were local-into-local. Their service, if it still existed, would not help anyone outside of each local market they served. Aereo made a point of not selling NYC locals outside of the NYC local markets. The same followed for their other markets. Local-into-local.

Since they are no longer in service and their service model has been deemed illegal (they carried local stations in their own market without asking permission) they really are of no help for the problem expressed in this thread.


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

James Long said:


> Perhaps oversimplified ... the reason for Significantly Viewed (long before satellite) was to get cable systems to carry local channels that had significant viewership in their communities. The station would prove that they were watched (via OTA antenna) a certain percentage of the audience in that community. They would be added to the list and consider a local station for cable companies in that community.
> 
> Unlike satellite, cable companies do not have to carry every local station in their market or community. The number of local stations required is based on the size of the system. Smaller systems may reach that quota before getting to the SV stations. Cable is generally not required to carry stations that do not reach their local receive facility - which may not be in the community served. So "cable must" has a couple of caveats.
> 
> ...


No but it was worth mentioning since they did get bought by TiVo they would not of wasted their money obtaining them if they didnt see some value there. Who knows. Maybe it will come back in one form or another. Also I agree with you on the non level playing field between Cable and Satellite. Everytime the renewal is up for the DNS feeds they sweep the other issues back under the rug. That can only happen so long. There are issues that need to be addressed one of these days. Alot of those laws are severly outdated.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

joshjr said:


> No but it was worth mentioning since they did get bought by TiVo they would not of wasted their money obtaining them if they didnt see some value there.


I believe the value is in the technology ... receive antennas, DVRs and transmission to viewing devices. The problem with Aereo was permission. A company "playing by the rules" that gets permission from the broadcasters (and likely pays their extorted prices) will do better. The question will come down to what type of system this is ... it isn't satellite or cable, so what are the boundries for must carry and must offer carriage? A question any new service must answer.

One issue that has come up is that the stations object to being streamed. Even those who have signed licensing agreements to cable and satellite for delivery via their systems have objected to the same cable and satellite partners streaming their content.

While one may argue that "personal streaming" is ok, just as personal VCR and DVR recording and playback have been supported by the courts, giving permission for re-transmission is more complicated than what is legal. If a broadcaster does not want their content streamed to portable devices then they can refuse to allow a carrier to retransmit their signal at all unless the carrier does not retransmit to portable devices.

This affects DISH service where local stations may not be available via Hopper w/Sling even though they are being slung from the customer's home. The local station can make "no slinging" a part of their contract. (It would not prevent a separate consumer slingbox from being used.)

So Tivo may be able to cut deals with stations that will allow them to deliver local signals over the top (OTT) to Tivo equipment installed in a home, but would not allow Tivo to deliver the signal to portable devices. Tivo could still use Aereo's technology (although the DVR technology would probably not be needed). They would just need to deliver the channels within the rules that the local channels agree to.


----------



## Ele Jones (Sep 23, 2018)

PP123 said:


> I live in Bucks County, PA (Newtown PA to be exact) which is about 60 miles south of NYC. MANY of my neighbors including myself travel to NYC for work on a daily basis. We would all benefits from having some local NYC channels (FOX, ABC, WPIX, WWOR, etc.) so we are aware of any travel delays, police activity, weather related transit delays, etc. However, we only get Philadelphia channels (Philly is about 30 miles south of us). Many counties adjacent to us (which are just 10 minutes away such as mercer county, NJ which includes Princeton and Trenton) get both Philly and NYC channels as both as on the significantly viewed list. I am wondering if anyone in Bucks County was successful in getting NYC local channels added/ included in their cable or satellite package. Alternatively, I am wondering if anyone would be interested in getting these added and maybe together, we can make it happen. Just some additional comments/ questions from my end:
> 
> 1. Due to the proximately of NYC and the fact that counties just 5 miles away get NYC channels, we are physically able to get it.
> 
> ...


I moved from North Jersey to S Jersey Delaware Valley Region with my Directv. I still had all my NYC channels when I hooked up, for a week. Then I came home one day and had all Philly channels. I called Directv, and asked why I couldn't have my NY channels instead of Philly's. They told me it was because of FCC rule. I couldn't have NY in Philly region.


----------



## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

Ele Jones said:


> I moved from North Jersey to S Jersey Delaware Valley Region with my Directv. I still had all my NYC channels when I hooked up, for a week. Then I came home one day and had all Philly channels. I called Directv, and asked why I couldn't have my NY channels instead of Philly's. They told me it was because of FCC rule. I couldn't have NY in Philly region.


Can you post your zip code and county? Antenna a possibility for you? Pretty sure the AM21 still exists so you could DVR off one straight to you DirecTV equipment. With the zip and county, I will look and see what I can find.


----------



## enjoywatchingTV (Dec 18, 2018)

Do any of the NYC stations stream their news live?

There is a Roku channel called News On that has local TV newscasts streamed. I don't see any NYC or Philly stations participating, but there is WJLA 7 from Washington, WFSB from New Haven, WNYT Albany, WGAL Lancaster, WBAL Baltimore and more, where I can watch their newscast often live (2 min delay). I was watching WBFF's Good Day show and the person on air said it's 9:48 but it was 9:50 when I looked at my cell phone. , but local commercials are not shown, but other commercials are re-inserted somehow through my Roku. It will say Ad 1 of 1 so I know it's not from the TV station itself.

Another cool device is AirTV. It allows you to stream your local TV stations and then watch anywhere - up to 3 streams. So, I can connect my antenna and pull in the Philly stations and then watch them when I am down in DC. For those of you that want NYC stations in Philly, if you have a friend or family member up in NYC where you can set up the AirTV device, it will work.


----------

