# Losing ground * WTF is D* doing?



## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

I'm sorry, but I've now missed 14 different shows on 7 different series links, and I'm getting pissed.

It's one thing for D* to be constantly evolving the product. But this is a huge step backwards. THIS IS THE PRIMARY THING WE CARE ABOUT.

I think D* needs to stop messing around with new features and start spending some time improving quality control on these units. The HR20 doesn't need new features, it needs to work properly.


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## rynberg (Oct 6, 2006)

Call up D*TV and get a new box. Going on 5 months now without missing a single recording (knock on wood). To be honest, I think that perfect record includes me manually setting up/fixing something twice. That's why a quick review of the To-Do list is a good idea.


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## NCMAT (Feb 13, 2007)

I have missed shows too, but if you look in your history, there is usually a reason for it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jorhett...

Would most definently need to see what the History is stating for them...

And 7 different series links, 14 shows? 
Something else is drastically is going on there.

As other then CHUCK this week (which is something realy goofy), I haven't missed a Series Link since the begining of the year.


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## tombet (Sep 27, 2006)

I missed two this week - first time its happened to me for months - history for both said "due to an unexpected error. 3" However, I am running the newest CE release(x19e), not the national release.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I suspect something going on. The history is a good place to start. Also run a system test to see if both sat. tuners have recording enabled.


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## Rosenpants (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma. 

I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.

Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


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## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

Rosenpants said:


> I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma.
> 
> I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.
> 
> Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


just as well jump in the water...i was a little hesitant too..
upgrading the hr10-250...
but it is not as bad as it seems..


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## Mickey (Oct 26, 2005)

Rosenpants said:


> I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma.
> 
> I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.
> 
> Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


I was very hesitant also, but as ccr1958 said, it is not as bad as it seems. It takes a little getting used to to transition from the HR10-250, but I'm getting used to it quickly. And, I haven't lost any recordings yet after almost 2 weeks of use (not a long track record to be sure).

If you can get a deal on the HR20 using the methods posted here, there's no reason not to.


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## SteveHas (Feb 7, 2007)

Rosenpants said:


> I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma.
> 
> I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.
> 
> Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


I wouldn't worry too much about threads like this. I'm sure he has a problem, but it should not lead you to think all of the HR20s are problematic. 
The reality is forums are really meant for people with problems like this.
Very few people write into forums just to say,
"My box is perfect and I love it!"
I was thinking the same thing as you when I shopped for my Samsung and read all sorts of horror stories on AVS forums.
My TV is perfect, and so is my HR20 now.
Early on (last Januarary) it wasn't but now it is.
I would strongly advise you or anyone to make the move.
And no I do not work for D*


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

Rosenpants said:


> I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma.
> 
> I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.
> 
> Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


You're taking a big chance, but it might just pay off. I had a perfect TiVo and I upgraded to the HR20 a year ago. It was a complete disaster at first, missed recordings, lockups, you name it. I had to re-connect my TiVo to cover all the stuff the HR20 missed. Now, however, it is really pretty good, and if they can just get the CIR issue fixed, it actually surpasses good old TiVo. Of course, you might get a lemon, and then its nothing but problems.


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## waporvare (Sep 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I suspect something going on. The history is a good place to start. Also run a system test to see *if both sat. tuners have recording enabled.*


What does this mean?

I thought that was automatically set.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

rynberg said:


> Call up D*TV and get a new box. Going on 5 months now without missing a single recording (knock on wood). To be honest, I think that perfect record includes me manually setting up/fixing something twice. That's why a quick review of the To-Do list is a good idea.


People lucky enough to have working units always make that sound easy. Just call them up and get a new box... My HR-20 missed about 40% of my shows for 5 months and I called D* half a dozen times and they admitted it but refused to swap the box...

For whatever reason, my series links seem reliable now, but I have been there. They used to just skip shows all the time. And stubbornly. I would look at the to do list, see they weren't there, manually reinsert the episodes and have them drop off the list again...


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Rosenpants said:


> I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma.
> 
> I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.
> 
> Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


1. :welcome_s 
2. If you don't care about HD then there is no sense in upgrading. If you do care about HD then absolutley upgrade. The HR20 isn't perfect but it's not as bad as many people have made it out to be (or as it used to be) and all the new HD is really nice.


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## tombet (Sep 27, 2006)

Rosenpants -
My HR20 is not perfect, but I am very satisfied. It is MUCH more stable than when it released a year ago. I did have two missed shows this week ("error 3") and like so many others, a spontaneous reboot around 12:30am PST. But this is the only issue I've had in months. You didn't buy that beautiful Panasonic 50" Plasma to watch SD programming - its a no brainer for you to move to the HR20. It will make your new 50incher come alive. And though I missed my Tivo software for a month or two, now when I go back to the kids playroom with the old DirecTivo, I find the interface frustratingly slow and less powerful.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

tombet said:


> Rosenpants -
> My HR20 is not perfect, but I am very satisfied. It is MUCH more stable than when it released a year ago. I did have two missed shows this week ("error 3") and like so many others, a spontaneous reboot around 12:30am PST. But this is the only issue I've had in months. You didn't buy that beautiful Panasonic 50" Plasma to watch SD programming - its a no brainer for you to move to the HR20. It will make your new 50incher come alive. And though I missed my Tivo software for a month or two, now when I go back to the kids playroom with the old DirecTivo, I find the interface frustratingly slow and less powerful.


I bet the DirecTivo DIDN'T miss those 2 shows. Unacceptable that it still misses shows to this day. We have this "3" error not to mention the ever present error of "This show was cancelled because it became unavailable (13)". A DVR should record first and foremost. HR20 does not do this correctly...how long has it been? Why do people say, it's rock solid and I ONLY had to RBR once last month or it ONLY missed 2 shows this week? Mind Blowing...maybe mediocrity of the unit has made you numb to things that don't work and it's becoming acceptable for a DVR to not DVR right?!?

:nono:


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

waporvare said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> I thought that was automatically set.


It should be, and there's no manual switch or place in the interface to change it.
But, if you've got a cabling or multiswitch problem, and one tuner is not receiving a proper signal, it will "unset".

By going to the "INFO AND TEST" option under the main menu, you can run a system diagnostic. As you scroll down the results, it will show Tuner 1 and Tuner 2. If both say "Sat; Record" then it's OK. If one says just "SAT", there's a problem somewhere - cabling as mentioned above, or even a bad tuner in the unit.

Worth checking !


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

I'm not sure how D* is messing around with new features.

A year ago the box software was kinda screwed up but for me it's been _working properly_ since January of this year.


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## Sah (Jul 17, 2006)

Rosenpants said:


> I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma.
> 
> I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.
> 
> Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


Unfortunately I think it's just hit and miss with the HR20. We've had ours for one year now, and have _never_ had a missed recording, or any other problems for that matter. I really sympathize with those that do have problems, as there seem to be a fair number. But you generally only hear from people who are having problems, so just wanted to add my 2 cents on our positive experience.


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## Castlebill (Jul 25, 2006)

I had 2 priority recordings canceled Tues. night. One said it was canceled because the channel was no longer available (6)- this was local CBS HD. The other said : This episode was canceled because of an unexpected error(3). Bothe recorded fine on my other HR20. I'm on 19e.


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## rynberg (Oct 6, 2006)

Citivas said:


> People lucky enough to have working units always make that sound easy. Just call them up and get a new box... My HR-20 missed about 40% of my shows for 5 months and I called D* half a dozen times and they admitted it but refused to swap the box...


Understood.

You have to be smarter about calling in problems then. Tell them the drive is making loud clicking noises and the box is REALLY hot. It's unfortunate but you have to play the game.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

I also have had a few SLs not record for no apparent reason. One I was watching it and it just didn't come on to record. Its a daily show. Noting else recorging, obviously it was 'avialable' It just didn't record it. 

Also decided not to do some of the Charmed episodes. This is new to me, perhpas its my 19D CE and hopefully the next CE will stop it. I missed the 19E download.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

luckydob said:


> HR20 does not do this correctly...how long has it been? Why do people say, it's rock solid and I ONLY had to RBR once last month or it ONLY missed 2 shows this week? Mind Blowing...maybe mediocrity of the unit has made you numb to things that don't work and it's becoming acceptable for a DVR to not DVR right?!?


My first response is: YOURS doesn't seem to be, while others [like my two] are working fine. This is why you can read postings staying they work.
I know how you feel as I've had my "twins" for some time now and last fall I had the same problem. Mine wouldn't and others kept coming back with "mine works fine". It can be a bit upsetting.

The software has improved which has cured this for most of us now.
If you really want to try to fix this, you'll need to do a "reset everything" from the setup menu and will lose all of your recordings and settings.
Some users don't want to do this [which I understand] and will just keep complaining.
Bottom line is sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and start all over with the HR-20 set to the factory defaults. This is just like a computer that you need to reset the BIOS on the motherboard.

If you want help .send me a PM and I'll walk you through it as I have done for others who had had good luck afterwords. FWIW


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## skyboysea (Nov 1, 2002)

luckydob said:


> I bet the DirecTivo DIDN'T miss those 2 shows. Unacceptable that it still misses shows to this day.


I don't know about those shows but this week my DTivo missed the recording of "Back to you" (no longer in guide error while it was there) but my HR20 recordet it correctly.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

skyboysea said:


> I don't know about those shows but this week my DTivo missed the recording of "Back to you" (no longer in guide error while it was there) but my HR20 recordet it correctly.


I almost came unglued yesterday when I was checking the guide on the HR20 and noticed Back to You wasn't goingto be recorded (flashbacks to Monday and Chuck). Then I realized that I wasn't lookin at the HR20 I use to record Fox. Changed over and sure enough it was set to record.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

I accept that it's a box still under development but IMO that's a little forgiving. Resetting your BIOS on a PC doesn't cause catastrophic data loss. I'd say a better analogy would be every time MS Word starts behaving a little flaky that the only solution is to reformat your hard drive and lose weeks/months/years of data. A single user app running on fixed hardware modeling existing technology should be the very model of stability.

peace . . .



veryoldschool said:


> Bottom line is sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and start all over with the HR-20 set to the factory defaults. This is just like a computer that you need to reset the BIOS on the motherboard.


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## csdan (Sep 14, 2006)

To all the people losing recordings, I wonder if you all have the same problem a lot of people in Denver have been talking about in other threads. We've been getting a "aquiring guide data" message and then we lose our local channels (even when we have it set it on all channels). when trying to change to one of the locals we get "channel unavailable". A few minutes later the same message appears and the locals come back. I then noticed it completely wipes out any recordings in the to do list that were on the locals and would take a long time to rebuild these recordings into the to do list. This must be a pretty big problem because when I call in to CSR there is an automated message that they know about the "aquiring guide data" issue and are actively pursuing a fix for this. whenever this happens it automatically changes the channel to 201. So if you've ever turned on on TV and it has been on 201, this is what probably happened.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

tim99 said:


> I accept that it's a box still under development but IMO that's a little forgiving. Resetting your BIOS on a PC doesn't cause catastrophic data loss. I'd say a better analogy would be every time MS Word starts behaving a little flaky that the only solution is to reformat your hard drive and lose weeks/months/years of data. A single user app running on fixed hardware modeling existing technology should be the very model of stability.
> 
> peace . . .


I'm not disagreeing with you, but a PC and this DVR are slightly different. There is no jumper on the motherboard [like the PC] here and the only way to clear the flash memory is the reset everything, which in this case clears the drive also.
I haven't needed to do this to my receivers since Feb, but then they are behaving.
If yours aren't behaving then [as I posted] you can either try to resolve it or not, and have it keep misbehaving.
Yes we all know Bill Gates got it right the first time with windows so we shouldn't be having these type of issues with our new D* equipment.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Hasn't the HR20 been in the marketplace for over a year now? That's a bit past "new" for consumer electronics. 

Tim,
VOS is correct though...there is very little the end user can do to "fix" problems with the HR20. Basically, you get two shots...a restart (which is non-destructive with the exception of some guide data) and then the complete reformat.

I have found the HR20 will operate far better if you make it a practice to restart it about once every three weeks or so.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

How about posting which HR20 and sw version when complaining or saying mine is OK. That may help pin it down too.

My guess is it something in the various hardware versions out there.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

TBoneit said:


> How about posting which HR20 and sw version when complaining or saying mine is OK. That may help pin it down too.
> 
> My guess is it something in the various hardware versions out there.


We used to think this about six months ago, but basically since Feb/mar it really doesn't matter unless you're running the CE test software.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

Having coming from using a Comcast Motorola DVR for the past two years, I personally think the HR20 is a dream come true.

I could literally freeze up the Moto box simply changing channels. It was so frustrating - and the only fix was to unplug it.

Don't get me started about recording things...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Redlinetire said:


> Having coming from using a Comcast Motorola DVR for the past two years, I personally think the HR20 is a dream come true.
> 
> I could literally freeze up the Moto box simply changing channels. It was so frustrating - and the only fix was to unplug it.
> 
> Don't get me started about recording things...


I had one of those for a week last year. Then I re-activated my D* account and ordered my first HR-20.
If there was anything about the Motorola that I missed it would be the 1394 output to my HTPC.
Since I got my HR-20 my HTPC isn't ever booted anymore.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Something's going on. I missed last night's CSI:NY (cancelled due to unknown error "3"), and had four instances of the same episode/channel of "The War" at 10:30 PM in my HISTORY, 3 marked "not recorded", and one "marked" recorded, at lower priority than CSI:NY.

CSI:NY recorded just fine on one of my other HR20's tho. Both on 0x19D. /steve


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

Actually Bill Gates DID get this right the first time. Windows was always designed so that you could reset it to 'zero' without wiping out all the users documents.

peace . . .



veryoldschool said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, but a PC and this DVR are slightly different. There is no jumper on the motherboard [like the PC] here and the only way to clear the flash memory is the reset everything, which in this case clears the drive also.
> I haven't needed to do this to my receivers since Feb, but then they are behaving.
> If yours aren't behaving then [as I posted] you can either try to resolve it or not, and have it keep misbehaving.
> Yes we all know Bill Gates got it right the first time with windows so we shouldn't be having these type of issues with our new D* equipment.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

tim99 said:


> Actually Bill Gates DID get this right the first time. Windows was always designed so that you could reset it to 'zero' without wiping out all the users documents.
> peace . . .


The motherboard has the jumper [as I posted] and no Bill didn't get it right the first time or why were there so many versions of windows that crashed?

But at this point... there is no point so... enjoy.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

The HR20 missing recordings is a pretty regular thing. Whether you experience it or not depends on the actual shows you're trying to capture. It's pretty reliable on the weekly shows, but on shows with daily or multiple daily showings there are often problems. I think this is a very different issue than machine stability which has improved.

There's also the First Run/Repeat Issues.

The question though is how can this be fixed?

1. Should the guide data be improved? Should it be more thoroughly checked for errors?
2. Is the HR20 not parsing the guide data properly and/or corrupting the data?
3. Should the HR20 handle guide data errors more intelligently?

I have a feeling that the group that handles guide data may not be the same as the group that deals with the HR20's programming and they're not communicating as well as maybe they should.

Finally, the television networks, for whatever reason, have decided that adhering to their stated schedules isn't really important.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

The jumper on the motherboard doesn't delete all your documents either.

Of course Bill got it right [as I posted] even the first version of Windows did not require you to wipe out all of your documents to restore it.

Besides you're speaking about bugs and design flaws as if they were the same thing. If software is designed properly such that it keeps system data and user data separate then the system can usually recover from a crash and reset without wiping out the user data.

It certainly should attempt to do so wouldn't you agree?

peace . . .



veryoldschool said:


> The motherboard has the jumper [as I posted] and no Bill didn't get it right the first time or why were there so many versions of windows that crashed?
> 
> But at this point... there is no point so... enjoy.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

I wonder if they've tied themselves programatically to something proprietary in their version of the guide data. And then as you suggest that's not always being populated correctly either at their end or at the customers. Just a possibility but it would explain a lot. Firing off the encoder via a cron with 99.99% reliability isn't rocket science so it must be something like you suggest.



Ken S said:


> I have a feeling that the group that handles guide data may not be the same as the group that deals with the HR20's programming and they're not communicating as well as maybe they should.
> 
> Finally, the television networks, for whatever reason, have decided that adhering to their stated schedules isn't really important.


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

Look, I like the HR20 since is has been vastly improved. I used to hate the interface and pretty much everything about it. It has truly come a long way. But it MISSES SHOWS! I have had issues with shows missing this week so I MADE SURE to check today the to do list and it had Greys Anatomy, my wifes fav. show scheduled to record. I even checked to make sure it started recording - A OK. Then, she comes to play the show at 10 and lo and behold it only recorded 28 mins. The frikkin show was still in the cache, I tried hitting record but it picked it up as 0 mins. The recording history on the HR20 is a joke with the lack of detail, the whole system of conflicts, series links, history and to dos is vastly inferior to Tivo and it needs to be improved. Looks like I am going to be calling DirectTV again for the first time in a while and put in my two cents.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

xerxes said:


> Look, I like the HR20 since is has been vastly improved. I used to hate the interface and pretty much everything about it. It has truly come a long way. But it MISSES SHOWS! I have had issues with shows missing this week so I MADE SURE to check today the to do list and it had Greys Anatomy, my wifes fav. show scheduled to record. I even checked to make sure it started recording - A OK. Then, she comes to play the show at 10 and lo and behold it only recorded 28 mins. The frikkin show was still in the cache, I tried hitting record but it picked it up as 0 mins. The recording history on the HR20 is a joke with the lack of detail, the whole system of conflicts, series links, history and to dos is vastly inferior to Tivo and it needs to be improved. Looks like I am going to be calling DirectTV again for the first time in a while and put in my two cents.


Count yourself lucky. My HR20 decided to not record Grey's Anatomy. The HR20 experiment is failing. The constant audio drop outs...the missed recordings...just go back to the Tivo unit. At least it worked as far as recording programs.


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## Swheat (Aug 10, 2005)

luckydob said:


> I bet the DirecTivo DIDN'T miss those 2 shows. Unacceptable that it still misses shows to this day. We have this "3" error not to mention the ever present error of "This show was cancelled because it became unavailable (13)". A DVR should record first and foremost. HR20 does not do this correctly...how long has it been? Why do people say, it's rock solid and I ONLY had to RBR once last month or it ONLY missed 2 shows this week? Mind Blowing...maybe mediocrity of the unit has made you numb to things that don't work and it's becoming acceptable for a DVR to not DVR right?!?
> 
> :nono:


Well, since I have had an HR10 and now have had the HR20 for almost a year, and the only one to have ever missed a recording is the HR10, does that mean the HR10 is totally unacceptable and a POS.. No it doesn't, it just means the HR10 had a problem, but no big deal.

I've lurked around around these forums and the Tivo community forum long enough to have seen all the bi***ing and moaning peo[le have done about both of the machines to take it all with a grain of salt.

Both machines have good and bad points i.e. no DLB on HR20 and extreme slowness on the HR10, to name just two. But the fact is that the HR20 will allow me to receive the new HD channels. And the HR10 won't. For me the best choice is very clear. Plus I just plain like the HR20 more.

But if you like the HR10 better, that's fine. Everybodies got their own priorities.

But remember, with all of the good people's help here at DBStalk, D* is steadily improving the HR20. Maybe someday it will be what you want. (Probably not a Tivo, though)


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## richa65 (Dec 4, 2006)

Something is definitely going on. Things have been going very well for me since about Feb. and believe me - I was a BIG detractor of this thing last November/December/January. But after many months of happiness, suddenly, I have missed 2 shows this week - 1/2 of Reaper and 1/2 of Grey's tonight. Hopefully DTV will get this figured out quickly. I have also noticed that the dropouts have gone up A LOT in the last few days - I'm assuming unrelated, but who knows.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

tim99 said:


> The jumper on the motherboard doesn't delete all your documents either.
> 
> Of course Bill got it right [as I posted] even the first version of Windows did not require you to wipe out all of your documents to restore it.
> 
> ...


While I may have used a poor analogy, a self created word doc doesn't have the copyright issues of the HR-20 storing broadcast media.
This is closer to windows XP where you can lose your old word docs if there is a security issue.
I'm not defending the HR-20, just trying to explain how it works to help those that need it [or want it].
If this is of no use to you fine. 
End of report....


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Sorry I didn't realize this was another Tivos is the greatest thing in the world and the HR-20 is a total piece of.... thread

Nevermind...


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Sorry I didn't realize this was another Tivos is the greatest thing in the world and the HR-20 is a total piece of.... thread
> 
> Nevermind...


It seems that a big part of the issue is that when the HR20 was originally released it was (lets say) really "buggy". Now that it's greatly improved, yet still far from perfect, everyone tends to flashback 12 months any time there is a problem. Simply put this unit was released too early and has a bad rep that it will probably never get away from no matter how good it eventually becomes.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

I don't think this is about Tivo or about how bad the HR20 was or how good it is now. It's about the missed recordings. I think they're a separate issue from system stability and features. 

I have not seen any improvement in this area for six months. It's still not recording the same number of shows each week.

The HR20 may be nothing more than an innocent processor of bad guide data in this regard...what I do know is someone should really address the issue.

Perhaps it'll be a little harder to ignore now that the problems are hitting the prime time shows and not just the kid's shows that I and others have been detailing for months.


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## jmhga44 (Aug 27, 2006)

I lost 1/2 of Grey's Anatomy also tonight. I noticed that a couple of other posters on this thread from the Atlanta area had the same thing happen and I'm in the Dallas area. The message I got was "*This episode was partially recorded because it became unavailable (13)*" It makes you wonder since I'm not the only one to have had this happen.

At the time I had set up season passes for Grey's Anatomy to start on time (8:00pm) and end 1 minute later (sometime between 9:00pm - 9:05pm) , CSI - Las Vegas to start and end on time (8:00 pm and 9:00 pm), and ER to start and end on time (9:01 pm and 10:00 pm). From what I can tell CSI and ER recorded correctly. This to my knowledge is the first time this has happened and I guess I've been lucky compared to some of the posts I've seen on this thread.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Well, it's been a couple of weeks since we had a thread like this one, I suppose we were due. Just try to keep the fight fair, ok?


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Ken S said:


> 1. Should the guide data be improved? Should it be more thoroughly checked for errors?


Absolutely. It's inexcusable that the guide data for the DIRECTV Plus series is still as poor as it is, and that the receivers display a very limited amount of it. I also believe this is the cause of most of the missed/canceled recordings with the HR20. Less attention is paid to the daily/recurring programming, and therefore most of the problems are with these types of programs.



Ken S said:


> 2. Is the HR20 not parsing the guide data properly and/or corrupting the data?


I used to think this was, at least, part of the problem (back in the Blues Clues days), but I now think it's the guide data itself that is the problem.



Ken S said:


> 3. Should the HR20 handle guide data errors more intelligently?


Most definitely. If this was the case, the issues above (in #1) would be minor annoyances, not a failure of a DVR at its primary task. Guide data will never be perfect, the HR20 needs to handle problems more gracefully.

IMHO, both DIRECTV and the HR20 programmers are on the hook for this. DIRECTV for not demanding better and more consistent guide data from TMS. The programmers for not making the HR20 more tolerant of bad data.


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## Griff (Sep 24, 2006)

Our HR20-100 only recorded 31 minutes of tonight's Grey's Anatomy. Our HR20-700 did not record Journeyman at all. The history said it was canceled. Not by us.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Griff said:


> Our HR20-100 only recorded 31 minutes of tonight's Grey's Anatomy. Our HR20-700 did not record Journeyman at all. The history said it was canceled. Not by us.


Griff:

What error code did the HR20 report as the reason for canceling?
(Highlight the program in history, and press select to see the detail).


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## Griff (Sep 24, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> Griff:
> 
> What error code did the HR20 report as the reason for canceling?
> (Highlight the program in history, and press select to see the detail).


Will check tomorrow; just shut everything down for the night, sorry. I didn't know about checking detail, good to know.


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## Bista-Buster (Apr 15, 2006)

I just wanted to be a positive on this one. Reason being? Do any of you remember the days of the HR10-250 HDMI connector problem? I say this because it is relevant to the HR20's lack of recording brains issus. Well, I got 2 of those HR10-250's and neither one of them EVER had an HDMI failure. So, what you are reading here may be isolated issues, however very true situations, but ony limited to those machines. Not every one of them.


What we need to do to get a "feel" as to how these HR20's are really working is to put a thread up to be used only for satisfied customers that have no failures pertaining only to a software bug. Not a failing HD or other hardware issues. What I am concerned about is whether or not the software package is programmed correctly. I want to know if these error messages are common. Is the programming well thought out and bulletproof as the original poster was talking about for his TiVo.:grin:


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

I really want to like the HR20, but it doesn't allow me to.
First and foremost it should be a DVR. It isn't...at least it doesn't record when I tell it to. 
In my history right now I have over 20 of this message:
This episode was partially recorded because it became unavailable (13).

IT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 3 MONTHS NOW. MANY DIFFERENT THREADS. STILL A PROBLEM.

Yes I am mad and yes I will continue to be mad until the HR20 behaves like a DVR and not a middle school teenage girl who does what she wants regardless of what her parents tell her to do.

Yes it's just TV, but I still pay for it, so I should get what I pay for; yes/no? I don't call for credits or freebies like others may do, but I do complain.


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

Tonight is the first time my HR20 has failed to record a show (Grey's Anatomy). It stopped 29 minutes into the show and got the same "it became unavailable" error other were mentioning. 

I also have a Motorola box through Comcast that many times for some unknown reason has failed to record a show in it's entirety. 

So since this is the 1st problem I have found with the HR20, it's proven to be more reliable than the alternative. 

The underlying issue for me would be what would cause the "because it became unavailable meassage"? Is that triggered by guide data? Is it triggered by a channel being removed from the channel list?


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## cjtiger300 (Jul 27, 2007)

Only got 31 minutes of Grey's as well. What a weird glitch. Thank goodness we had our bedroom DVR setup to record it as well. The R-15 wasn't affected and recorded the whole show.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Rosenpants said:


> I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma.
> 
> I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.
> 
> Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


People don't post when things are going good. If you look over at TiVoCommunity, you'll see all kinds of TiVo problems, too. But most of us don't experience them.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

jorhett said:


> I'm sorry, but I've now missed 14 different shows on 7 different series links, and I'm getting pissed.
> 
> It's one thing for D* to be constantly evolving the product. But this is a huge step backwards. THIS IS THE PRIMARY THING WE CARE ABOUT.
> 
> I think D* needs to stop messing around with new features and start spending some time improving quality control on these units. The HR20 doesn't need new features, it needs to work properly.


Jorhett--

You've been posting about your problems with your HR20 for months now. Is this the same one? Consider the possibility it's a lemon and get it exchanged already.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

There is a difference between CAN lose data and being designed to lose data.

Personally I really like the HR20. Its a good box that has a lot of potential from the company I've been a customer of for 10+ years but I intend to hold the HR20 to a high standard. Being that they toss stuff out to publc beta and feedback one could infer that D* intends to as well.

I realize you're just giving out helpful information.

But I still say that having to format your hard drive and lose all your data to get the system to function again? That needs work.



veryoldschool said:


> While I may have used a poor analogy, a self created word doc doesn't have the copyright issues of the HR-20 storing broadcast media.
> This is closer to windows XP where you can lose your old word docs if there is a security issue.
> I'm not defending the HR-20, just trying to explain how it works to help those that need it [or want it].
> If this is of no use to you fine.
> End of report....


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## richa65 (Dec 4, 2006)

I really don't like it when folks separate the guide data from the HR20. As an end user who doesn't have time to get into the details of how everything fits together (as most users of the HR20 are), it's the same thing. When you design a product that has various sources of data coming into it. YOU ALWAYS ASSUME that you are going to get screwed up data. In fact, you intentionally screw up the data as much as possible and then make sure that your box performs.

Look HR20 team, if the guide data "becomes unavailable" in the middle of a show that you are already recording, here's a thought. Just keep recording the damned show. Hell, if the guide data changes and you think that Grey's just became the Lawrence Welk show, IGNORE THAT and keep recording. The HR20 knew that at 9:00 or 9:01 whatever it was, that it was going to record ABC for 1 hour. Put that in memory somewhere. Use that in your algorithm to determine when to stop. Losing the guide data should not trigger you to throw your freaking hands up in the air and take a coffee break. Tivos, R15's, etc get the same garbage guide data. It appears that they handled this gracefully. As many others in this thread have already said: Fault Tolerance: Get some.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Bista-Buster said:


> I just wanted to be a positive on this one. Reason being? Do any of you remember the days of the HR10-250 HDMI connector problem? I say this because it is relevant to the HR20's lack of recording brains issus. Well, I got 2 of those HR10-250's and neither one of them EVER had an HDMI failure. So, what you are reading here may be isolated issues, however very true situations, but ony limited to those machines. Not every one of them.
> 
> What we need to do to get a "feel" as to how these HR20's are really working is to put a thread up to be used only for satisfied customers that have no failures pertaining only to a software bug. Not a failing HD or other hardware issues. What I am concerned about is whether or not the software package is programmed correctly. I want to know if these error messages are common. Is the programming well thought out and bulletproof as the original poster was talking about for his TiVo.:grin:


We have been doing this for months now in other threads. There are certain shows that anyone who participated and was trying to record had problems. There was certainly enough evidence to help anyone at DirecTV that cared to replicated what we were doing and investigate the issue IF they were so interested.


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## djzack67 (Sep 18, 2007)

I've had very little problems. I must be lucky.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Partial recordings of Gray's Anatomy on two of my HR20's last night. Stopped after 32 minutes with an "unexpected error 13" in the HISTORY. Both units on 0x19D. Criminal Minds on the other tuner recorded fine. /steve


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The motherboard has the jumper [as I posted] and no Bill didn't get it right the first time or why were there so many versions of windows that crashed?
> 
> But at this point... there is no point so... enjoy.


Well I have lots of customers using old version of Windows due to cost of upgrading Specialty software or hardware. We even fixed a couple of Dos machine last year.

Our cash register computer was running Win95 on a old pentium system with 32Meg memory.

I had to replace it due to the Mobo going bad so I did Win98 with 64Meg memory.

I could set up a Xp system, Get the XP version of softwarem upgrade my Server software and have a system that takes longer to boot and shut down and costs a lot more money But the Win95 and 98 systems never crash for us. So going on the old adage of if it isn't broken, don't fix it, I'll save the thousands that all the upgrades would cost. As is I can browse the net from the register if need be as well as maintain inventory and make invoices so what more do I need?

Cheers

Maybethe next HD DVR will be better? It took 2 iterations to get the original DVR, the E* Dishplayer to be better when it re-incarnated as the D* UTV.

And even then same story. Some users had fits with the Dishplayer and others had no problems.... Sound familiar?


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## Griff (Sep 24, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> Griff:
> 
> What error code did the HR20 report as the reason for canceling?
> (Highlight the program in history, and press select to see the detail).


One of my hobbies seems to be making myself look like a fool. Now, my wife thinks "she might have" accidentally done something to mess up Journeyman. And, while I still can't explain Grey's being cut off at the halfway mark (no one was home, and it wasn't a scheduling conflict), I can't check either. I put a new 1tb drive on that HR20-100, and moved it's 750g Seagate to our new HR20-700 (see sig). I had to let the 700 reformat the drive because when I would try to check on anything it would only say "searching for authorized content". So I have to eat crow. Sorry to one and all!


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Sorry I didn't realize this was another Tivos is the greatest thing in the world and the HR-20 is a total piece of.... thread
> 
> Nevermind...


For me Tivo worked 100% of the time for recording, and if there was a problem it was easily identifiable. Bad software is bad software, you can take Tivo out of the picture - HR20 still has BAD software.


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

Steve said:


> Partial recordings of Gray's Anatomy on two of my HR20's last night. Stopped after 32 minutes with an "unexpected error 13" in the HISTORY. Both units on 0x19D. Criminal Minds on the other tuner recorded fine. /steve


Same error and result for me.


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

luckydob said:


> \
> 
> Yes I am mad and yes I will continue to be mad until the HR20 behaves like a DVR and not a middle school teenage girl who does what she wants regardless of what her parents tell her to do.


LOL


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

richa65 said:


> Look HR20 team, if the guide data "becomes unavailable" in the middle of a show that you are already recording, here's a thought. Just keep recording the damned show. Hell, if the guide data changes and you think that Grey's just became the Lawrence Welk show, IGNORE THAT and keep recording. The HR20 knew that at 9:00 or 9:01 whatever it was, that it was going to record ABC for 1 hour. Put that in memory somewhere. Use that in your algorithm to determine when to stop. Losing the guide data should not trigger you to throw your freaking hands up in the air and take a coffee break. Tivos, R15's, etc get the same garbage guide data. It appears that they handled this gracefully. As many others in this thread have already said: Fault Tolerance: Get some.


Excellent point, but I can see where ignoring a change in a guide data stream could also be a problem, for example, with programs that run long. The correct behavior would be to respond appropriately and change the recording.


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

> IMHO, both DIRECTV and the HR20 programmers are on the hook for this. DIRECTV for not demanding better and more consistent guide data from TMS. The programmers for not making the HR20 more tolerant of bad data.


I couldn't agree with you more, well said.


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Excellent point, but I can see where ignoring a change in a guide data stream could also be a problem, for example, with programs that run long. The correct behavior would be to respond appropriately and change the recording.


But as he said, the information about the length of the show should also be stored at the start and that should determine how long to continue recording.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Excellent point, but I can see where ignoring a change in a guide data stream could also be a problem, for example, with programs that run long. The correct behavior would be to respond appropriately and change the recording.


I have to respectfully disagree with you here. It's not like they're changing the start time of a show because a football game ran overtime. That would actually be helpful. 

I find it impossible to believe the networks don't already know how long a show is going to run at least 24 hours in advance of it's showing. If you check your ToDo list for conflicts in the morning, why should have to check it for conflicts again at night because the GUIDE data might be changed "on the fly" at the last minute?

IMO, ABC in particular, should be boycotted for playing games like this. Those 10:01, 10:02 stop times are a blatant attempt to keep DVRs from switching channels at the end of the hour. They figure the average non-technical DVR user (like my wife) is incapable of coping with manual recording set-up, so she will just relent and record "Dirty Sexy Money" at 10:01, after "Private Practice", instead of "Life" on NBC, which starts at 10 on the dot.

Just my .02. I hate to seem so exorcised over this, but it really ticks me off. Feels good to vent! :lol: /s


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Steve said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with you here. It's not like they're changing the start time of a show because a football game ran overtime. That would actually be helpful.
> 
> I find it impossible to believe the networks don't already know how long a show is going to run at least 24 hours in advance of it's showing. If you check your ToDo list for conflicts in the morning, why should have to check it for conflicts again at night because the GUIDE data might be changed "on the fly" at the last minute?
> 
> ...


Actually, Steve, I'm in complete agreement with you. I can't imagine there were more than 38 minutes of programming in Grey's no matter whether it ran 60, 61, or 62 minutes, and this fooling around with the clock is deplorable. It's not in service of an event, it's just greed. When I said "I could imagine" I meant a network exec making the decision to run a sporting event long, not a money play to sell more ad time on your flagship program.

I think ABC is playing games, but I doubt they really care as much about the DVR user as the ad revenue. I think that annoying the DVR user is just collateral damage. I think that "Dirty Sexy Money" didn't do as well in ad sales as they hoped and they realized by padding "Grey's" they could charge double the price.

There's nothing against greed but this sort of shenanigan will backfire over time. If the show begins to tip to the "overplayed" side, something like this will merely hasten its demise.

My principal point is that the DVR should not ignore a change in guide data, it should compensate appropriately. Now, if you're saying it should ignore an interruption in the datastream, I do agree with that.


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## richa65 (Dec 4, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Excellent point, but I can see where ignoring a change in a guide data stream could also be a problem, for example, with programs that run long. The correct behavior would be to respond appropriately and change the recording.


Well, it would be great if we could get realtime guide data updates that would account for football games running long, presidential addresses, etc. But more importantly before we get to that is to just get the thing to record what we tell it to record. If ABC at 8:59 says Grays is going to be on for 1 hour at 9:00, hey, that's good enough for me - for now. Just record that slot and ignore anything else you see on the guide in the next 1 hour. If they slip it back 1 minute and I miss the previews for next week, that's ok - better than losing 1/2 the show.

And long term, if they figure out how to adjust to realtime guide changes gracefully. Great! Just be sure to test it thoroughly. I mean for crying out loud how lucky can you be? You have thousands of willing beta testers right here on this board. 10 years ago before I had 2 kids and owned a business, I would have been one. Now, I just want to put my damned feet up at 9:30 when I finally get the kids to bed and enjoy a little TV. Yeah, I'm old.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I still have mixed feelings about real-time adjustments once the ToDo list is set. If the HR20 adjusted "on the fly", there's nothing to stop an unscrupulous network (notice I didn't name "ABC" ) from adding a minute or two, at the last minute, and upsetting planned recordings on two other channels in the next hour.

At least I know on Sunday nights I have to pad Shark by an hour in order not to miss it (or Cold Case before it) because of football. I can deal with that, because I expect it to happen. What I can't deal with is unknown GUIDE stop-time changes at the last minute.

Guide start/stop time data needs to be 'frozen' at some reasonable point in time... at minimum 24 hours in advance, preferably further out than that. I don't want to have to check the ToDo list daily. Just my .02.

/steve


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## cynical2 (Oct 16, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> Also decided not to do some of the Charmed episodes.


Smart HR20...

Kidding...(kind of)


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NCMAT said:


> I have missed shows too, but if you look in your history, there is usually a reason for it.


"Canceled" seems to be a popular reason.


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## LightGuy48 (Nov 8, 2004)

I missed a ton of shows last week due to Unknown Error #3 as well!!

Called D* they had no clue, I find it hard to believe with many people on the forum having this issue that they're not getting a whole slew of calls regarding this issue!

My issue was with both OTA and Satellite shows. I rebooted and so far it hasn't returned. But still if rebooting fixes it and then it returns later that indicated some kind of issue with the unit or code.

Personally I believe they need to vastly improve their error logging / debugging info.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Ken S said:


> Hasn't the HR20 been in the marketplace for over a year now? That's a bit past "new" for consumer electronics.


Don't bring that up lest the R15 people jump on the bandwagon.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Ken S said:


> The HR20 may be nothing more than an innocent processor of bad guide data in this regard...what I do know is someone should really address the issue.


As long as something works right for some, it seems unlikely that the data is the problem (although this has been the battle cry of the HR20 apologists). It seems more likely that some machines aren't handling the data correctly. I'm betting that there are some uninitialized variables lurking in there somewhere.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

richa65 said:


> Well, it would be great if we could get realtime guide data updates that would account for football games running long, presidential addresses, etc.


Gotta love that "joined in progress" thing they pull quite often.


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## joe777 (Jul 1, 2004)

2 HR20's , No issues. Guess I'm just lucky ?


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## richa65 (Dec 4, 2006)

joe777 said:


> 2 HR20's , No issues. Guess I'm just lucky ?


As I understand it this is only an Eastern and Central issue. Based on your profile, you're a left coaster.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

harsh said:


> As long as something works right for some, it seems unlikely that the data is the problem (although this has been the battle cry of the HR20 apologists). It seems more likely that some machines aren't handling the data correctly. I'm betting that there are some uninitialized variables lurking in there somewhere.


It depends on what you mean by working right in this case. When we started comparing notes on missed shows...they matched and no one stepped forward to say "I got that one" when others didn't...unless of course they were using a Tivo-based unit.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Ken S said:


> It depends on what you mean by working right in this case. When we started comparing notes on missed shows...they matched and no one stepped forward to say "I got that one" when others didn't...unless of course they were using a Tivo-based unit.


I think most of the time everyone sees the same behavior on the same shows. Everyone in the East/Central timezone with an HR20 had the same problem with "Grey's Anatomy", except people who padded the end, (which probably tells the HR20 to ignore guide data changes).

There is no doubt the guide data is often a mess. I assume DirecTV pays Tribune for the guide data, so they should be all over Tribune to fix it. But if the channel is giving Tribune incorrect data, not sure what they can do.
It's also true that the HR20 seems to be much too sensitive to incorrect guide data. The TiVo is either getting better data, or is not as sensitive to it. (Although when the guide data is wrong, the TiVo has its issues also, for example when the first showing date is set incorrectly.)


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

For those interested in expressing their views on how D* should handle last minute GUIDE changes in the future, I've started a POLL here. /steve


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> jorhett...
> 
> Would most definently need to see what the History is stating for them...
> 
> ...


Earl, I understand your scepticism... oh sorry, no I don't. Ever since 18a shipped the forum has been filling up with reports of missed shows. Most of the summer was quiet on that topic, most of those issues seemed to be resolved. Now everyone is reporting problems.

Sure, I can give you my details. But when you see a preponderance of reports here in the forum can't you pay attention?

Last weekend, there was 4 solid hours of motorcycle racing. Labeled "Motorcycle Racing" on a channel that I have a series link for. (Speed) Before I left for the weekend I checked the Todo list, and all four showed up. When I got home none were there, and the history showed nothing on the topic.

* No power loss at the house
* The unit hadn't rebooted
* Nobody else lives at my house, nobody could have changed anything
...etc etc etc.

So right there I missed the season finale and championship deciding races. The most important races of the entire year.

So I had friends with Dish Network DVRs make DVDs for me, so that I could watch these races. Good job, makes me damn sure I won't talk my friends into DirecTV because we could all have gotten screwed.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Bottom line is sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and start all over with the HR-20 set to the factory defaults. This is just like a computer that you need to reset the BIOS on the motherboard.


No, that's a bad analogy. Resetting the HR20 requires wiping out all of the recordings. In my case that would delete about 90 hours of recordings, and would require 4-8 hours of new setup to make it work.

So the analogy you are presenting has nothing to do with clearing the BIOS. It's more like reformatting your hard drive and reinstalling all your software. It's a lot of work for people. And no, it's not reasonable to ask people to accept this.

I had a Dish DVR for 8 years and I never had to do anything like that. I have friends with Tivos that have recordings that old still on their DVR.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> We used to think this about six months ago, but basically since Feb/mar it really doesn't matter unless you're running the CE test software.


That was true until 18a. Now everyone is having recording problems again, which is why I posted this topic with this title.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

kcmurphy88 said:


> You've been posting about your problems with your HR20 for months now. Is this the same one? Consider the possibility it's a lemon and get it exchanged already.


Um, no. I had consistent problems with the very same show that numerous other people reported problems with: Heroes. At some point that got fixed. It was fine for like 6 months (I didn't even log in here for 3 months)

Then in September it's been missing shows like its going out of style. Right at the end of the racing season, and right at the start of various shows. Important stuff I really did want to see. Huge step backwards.

Given that software updates fixed the previous problem, and now the most recent software update has caused a new problem, there isn't any evidence to support the idea that my unit is busted.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jorhett said:


> No, that's a bad analogy. Resetting the HR20 requires wiping out all of the recordings. In my case that would delete about 90 hours of recordings, and would require 4-8 hours of new setup to make it work.
> 
> So the analogy you are presenting has nothing to do with clearing the BIOS. It's more like reformatting your hard drive and reinstalling all your software. It's a lot of work for people. And no, it's not reasonable to ask people to accept this.
> 
> I had a Dish DVR for 8 years and I never had to do anything like that. I have friends with Tivos that have recordings that old still on their DVR.


"4-8 hours of new setup?" You can't be serious.
"It's more like reformatting your hard drive and reinstalling all your software." There is no software to install & setup takes maybe 15 min. Redoing your series links will take a bit longer after the guide data populates, but no where near as long as installing Windows.
"I had a Dish DVR for 8 years and I never had to do anything like that. I have friends with Tivos that have recordings that old still on their DVR." This may be your best solution.
Like most that post here, I try to explain & help others. I can't wave a magic wand and make everything fine. You would actually have to want to try to make it better.
I've stayed out of this thread for a while because it just seems to be a bashing non constructive thread, but you seemed to have used my old posting and so it required a reply.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

joe777 said:


> 2 HR20's , No issues. Guess I'm just lucky ?


same here...


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

richa65 said:


> Tivos, R15's, etc get the same garbage guide data. It appears that they handled this gracefully.


I've experienced missed recordings with D-TiVos when DIRECTV changed the Guide data delivery method...what was it?...earlier this year IIRC. There is no flawless DVR platform and incorrect or mishandled Guide data is kryptonite to all of them. Having said that, my HR20 is solid and I prefer using it to the HR10.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "4-8 hours of new setup?" You can't be serious.


Yeah, last time I did a reset it required 1 hour on 12 different nights of finding recordings and setting up the series link. Since most of what I record is not episodic, it takes lot of time to find episodes and set them all to record.



> "It's more like reformatting your hard drive and reinstalling all your software." There is no software to install & setup takes maybe 15 min. Redoing your series links will take a bit longer after the guide data populates, but no where near as long as installing Windows.


I can setup Windows in a single night with all the software. Reconfiguring the HR20 with all of the series links I want takes multiple days. Now if name-based recordings worked properly, then I wouldn't have any problem.



> "I had a Dish DVR for 8 years and I never had to do anything like that. I have friends with Tivos that have recordings that old still on their DVR." This may be your best solution.


So then why are you defending the HR20?

You could show some integrity and admit that restarting from scratch is really not acceptable for most people. We aren't beta testers.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

bidger said:


> I've experienced missed recordings with D-TiVos when DIRECTV changed the Guide data delivery method...what was it?...earlier this year IIRC. There is no flawless DVR platform and incorrect or mishandled Guide data is kryptonite to all of them. Having said that, my HR20 is solid and I prefer using it to the HR10.


Well, the way the HR20 handles guide data...I'm guessing it must all be Kryptonite. EVERY DAY I GET A MISSED RECORDING. EVERY DAY! I get a missed recording on the HR10 maybe 1 time a year.

Where is the problem?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

You are still having issues with Heroes ? I remember working with you last season... and you had the most bizare issues with Heroes... Pretty much against the grain of just about every user that attempted to help you... and didn't even match the reports of others that were having issues on occasion with Heroes.

I have zero idea on what is up with your system, that you are having a problem with that show... as I have two units, that have not missed a single episode since the premier.

And we dont' have countless threads... of the other wise.

The only thought is that you have some bad piece of data in there, that is continuely screwing things up... 

And yes... sadly... a reformat, might be the only way to get rid of it.
Because if there is a bad piece of data in there... then maybe even countless updates... for here to the end of time will not fix it.

So unfourently... for you... that you may have missed your window during the sumer "hiatus" for an opportunity to mimize your pain in attempting a reformat.

There are TiVo, Dish DVR, any DVR really... that have to resort to a clean format of the system... to clear up problems.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jorhett said:


> So then why are you defending the HR20?
> 
> You could show some integrity and admit that restarting from scratch is really not acceptable for most people..


I'm not defending the HR-20. I'm trying to help those with problems.
I've started from scratch myself a few times and still have no idea how or why it takes you so long.
Since you don't want to take any steps to try to improve the way yours is working, there isn't anything I can help you with.
Good luck with what you have.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

luckydob said:


> Well, the way the HR20 handles guide data...I'm guessing it must all be Kryptonite. EVERY DAY I GET A MISSED RECORDING. EVERY DAY! I get a missed recording on the HR10 maybe 1 time a year.
> 
> Where is the problem?


Like what shows? What show do you miss every day...


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> You are still having issues with Heroes ? I remember working with you last season... and you had the most bizare issues with Heroes... Pretty much against the grain of just about every user that attempted to help you... and didn't even match the reports of others that were having issues on occasion with Heroes.


I'm not sure what you remember, but my report exactly matched the reports of other people who weren't getting Heroes. I started complaining louder because the multiplicity of reports on the same problem was being ignored.



> I have zero idea on what is up with your system, that you are having a problem with that show... as I have two units, that have not missed a single episode since the premier.


Heroes has recorded correctly since mid-April. Not an issue any more.



> And we dont' have countless threads... of the other wise.


Huh? The forums are completely full of people complaining about missed episodes. It's more than 50% of the current posts. What forum are you reading?



> The only thought is that you have some bad piece of data in there, that is continuely screwing things up...
> 
> And yes... sadly... a reformat, might be the only way to get rid of it.
> Because if there is a bad piece of data in there... then maybe even countless updates... for here to the end of time will not fix it.
> ...


No, really not. I had a Dish DVR for 7 years. maybe 8? Never ever had to reformat it. There wasn't even an option to do that.

I have friends with Tivo units that have programs on them 8-9 years old. I know, because I'm helping write these programs to DVD for them. Again, never had to reformat.

Reformatting and starting over is really harsh. I have more than 100 hours of programming on this I would lose, and some of it has no reasonable way to recover.

I find the consistent "reformat and start over" kind of responses insulting. If I was given a free unit from DirecTV under a beta program, I would totally understand. But I paid a lot of money out of pocket, is it unreasonable to expect to be given a production-quality unit? (ie what Tivo or E* ships?)


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So unfourently... for you... that you may have missed your window during the sumer "hiatus" for an opportunity to mimize your pain in attempting a reformat.


Just for clarity, summer is the main time for racing programs and SCI-FI programs. Right now we are finally entering a "hiatus" and I hope to catch up a bit.

(except Heroes, which just restarted)


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Like what shows? What show do you miss every day...


Wonder Pets - No new recordings for 2 weeks.
Sesame Street
Jack's Big Music Show
Survivorman - missed the last 2 episodes although I did get one tonight.

Always the same error:
This episode was partially recorded because it became unavailable (13)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jorhett said:


> Huh? The forums are completely full of people complaining about missed episodes. It's more than 50% of the current posts. What forum are you reading?


Can you give me the links to the 50% reports of HEROES failing?
Given the volume of users that are visiting us every day... registered users, that have stated they have a HR20....

We are not even at 1% of 1% of that user base, having posted they have a missed recording...

So while the "posts" may be there... it is not reflective of the entire population... at least from that aspect, for what it is worth.



jorhett said:


> No, really not. I had a Dish DVR for 7 years. maybe 8? Never ever had to reformat it. There wasn't even an option to do that.
> 
> I have friends with Tivo units that have programs on them 8-9 years old. I know, because I'm helping write these programs to DVD for them. Again, never had to reformat.


Well... I have had mutliple units for several years... and all of that at one time another freaked out to a point that I had to reformat... even one of them, I had to re-image the software.

So yes... it is not a common issue, but it does occur.
Just take a look at www.tivocommunity.com



jorhett said:


> Reformatting and starting over is really harsh. I have more than 100 hours of programming on this I would lose, and some of it has no reasonable way to recover.
> 
> I find the consistent "reformat and start over" kind of responses insulting. If I was given a free unit from DirecTV under a beta program, I would totally understand. But I paid a lot of money out of pocket, is it unreasonable to expect to be given a production-quality unit? (ie what Tivo or E* ships?)


We are not telling you to do it every week...
But if you want a solution, or at least an attempt at a solution...

That that is one... If you don't want to try it, and continue with the issues... then so be it.

It isn't "insulting" is a last attempt to resolve issues that you are happening.
So sorry that you are not happy with the final act, but it was it is.

There are a lot of people that have spent a lot of money on other things, that often have to go to a "drastic" level to get it finally resolved... this is no different... sucks... but it does happen.

Sure... everyone would agree, that the HR20 should have been better out the door... the but the fact is... it was released when it was and how it was... and you can't change that....

So all you can do is attempt to resolve your issue...
If you want to continue with "dealing" with... again... have at it.

If you don't..then try the reformat (and yes... I totally understand that losing 100 hours of recorded material sucks...)... else go for a replacement..

At the point that you are at... that is really your only two options left.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Can you give me the links to the 50% reports of HEROES failing?


Why are you still talking about Heroes? No Heroes problems since April, as I previously said.



> We are not even at 1% of 1% of that user base, having posted they have a missed recording... So while the "posts" may be there... it is not reflective of the entire population... at least from that aspect, for what it is worth.


Is 1% of 1% of the user base even visiting this forum? So why are you bring that statistic up? 50% of the posts made to the forum are about a single issue, isn't that worth investigating?



> We are not telling you to do it every week...
> But if you want a solution, or at least an attempt at a solution...
> That that is one... If you don't want to try it, and continue with the issues... then so be it.


If you could give me a single reason why it might solve my problem, I might be willing to do it. But you aren't doing that. You are ignoring the reports and just saying "reformat" to everything.

The unit had zero problems until 18a. Why do you think that a reformat will solve the problem? Last time I had problems they weren't solved with a reformat, but instead with a software update that fixed them.



> It isn't "insulting" is a last attempt to resolve issues that you are happening. So sorry that you are not happy with the final act, but it was it is.
> 
> There are a lot of people that have spent a lot of money on other things, that often have to go to a "drastic" level to get it finally resolved... this is no different... sucks... but it does happen.
> 
> ...


Right. Deal with it, or reformat. Um... really, why not collect information from the people here and ATTEMPT to diagnose the problem? Seriously, isn't that what should be done?

Telling people to reformat their drives won't solve a single problem related to software issues, and you know it. It just means that they have to spend hours setting everything up again, and won't be bugging you for a week.

Wouldn't it be more useful and productive to attempt to diagnose the problem?


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

This probably sounds like a whining thread, but its not. I'm just tired. Moderator, feel free to lock this thread against replies.

I just went over to the VIP622 forum and found 3 reported problems. 3 reported problems in 5 pages of threads. 

Yeah, Dish Network treated me like crap every time I called them.
Yeah, I'm a lot happier with DirecTV's customer service.
Yeah, DirecTV is cheaper too.

But the reality is that I only had to call Dish 5 times in 7 years. Whereas I've missed more than 30 something programs so far on the HR20.

I'd rather pay more and have it work reliably. Not only does the HR20 show zero signs of being reliable anytime soon, but the support staff both on the phone and the D* people in this forum always respond as if I am a beta tester, and should be willing to toss out a hundred hours of programming.

No, no and No. I'm not a beta tester, and if I was a beta tester I would still have the programs I really want to watch on a production unit.

So it looks like I'll be sending the HR20 back to DirecTV and going back to Dish. Not because I want to, but because there is no other reasonable choice.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

jorhett said:


> Why are you still talking about Heroes? No Heroes problems since April, as I previously said.
> 
> Is 1% of 1% of the user base even visiting this forum? So why are you bring that statistic up? 50% of the posts made to the forum are about a single issue, isn't that worth investigating?
> 
> ...


You could try it...and see. No reason to bash people...bashing the product I can understand. It is his opinion on what you can do to try to alleviate the problem...Earl isn't a D* employee. I too am very frustrated with the HR20, but I have done what has been suggested to fix things if it doesn't work come back and state if anything changed. Take it out on the hardware/software, but not the people offering help. I've tried to keep it that way as much as possible.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jorhett said:


> Wouldn't it be more useful and productive to attempt to diagnose the problem?


I'll take one last stab at this:
You're saying it's the software, but if that were true then more users would be having the problem.
Now part of the "attempt to diagnose" would be to start with a fresh baseline.
There are a lot of chips that can have a gate in the wrong state. A low when it should be a high or visa versa.
The reset everything clears the chips [and also wipes the drive]. It would be nice if there was just a jumper to clear the chips, but there isn't, so the reset everything is all that can be done.
Given a clean baseline, then you can proceed to try to determine if it's software causing the chips to hang in the wrong state or whether the chips are defective.
Not doing anything can't diagnose anything.


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## richiephx (Jan 19, 2006)

The same not so HD channels will probably be on E* sometime in the future anyway. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I'll take one last stab at this:
> You're saying it's the software, but if that were true then more users would be having the problem.


Where exactly is 1/2 of the posts in this forum not being enough users to warrant an investigation?

[quoteNow part of the "attempt to diagnose" would be to start with a fresh baseline.
There are a lot of chips that can have a gate in the wrong state. A low when it should be a high or visa versa.
The reset everything clears the chips [and also wipes the drive]. It would be nice if there was just a jumper to clear the chips, but there isn't, so the reset everything is all that can be done.
Given a clean baseline, then you can proceed to try to determine if it's software causing the chips to hang in the wrong state or whether the chips are defective.
Not doing anything can't diagnose anything.[/QUOTE]

Starting with a fresh baseline would make me lose a lot of valuable and oft irreplacable programming. Many of the things I have recorded won't ever be released on DVD. That's a very high cost, given that *ZERO* attempt has been made to diagnose it otherwise.

It's not like diagnosing it was attempting, and this is the last resort. That, I would understand. But zero diagnosis was attempted, and thus I am suggesting that the very high cost of a reformat doesn't make sense to me right now.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

"I had a Dish DVR for 8 years and I never had to do anything like that. I have friends with Tivos that have recordings that old still on their DVR." 
"This may be your best solution."
Glad you have decided to do something.  
Since or if you do take this option, you might as well try the help in your other thread since you will have nothing to lose anymore.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

luckydob said:


> I too am very frustrated with the HR20, but I have done what has been suggested to fix things if it doesn't work come back and state if anything changed. Take it out on the hardware/software, but not the people offering help. I've tried to keep it that way as much as possible.


I am happy to try things out. I would be happy to test just about anything. But the *only* thing suggested was reformat.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Since or if you do take this option, you might as well try the help in your other thread since you will have nothing to lose anymore.


Um, no. I have still 100 hours of programming to watch/record-to-dvd. Really.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jorhett said:


> Um, no. I have still 100 hours of programming to watch/record-to-dvd. Really.


I think everybody here wants you to be happy.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

jorhett said:


> more than 30 something programs so far on the HR20.


Sorry to hear about your experience. I'm Italian so I like to exaggerate  but you've really had 30 something missed programs with your HR-20?

Sounds like you've already made up your mind or maybe you really want to go back to Echostar but I would first recommend that you have your HR-20 replaced. Sounds like you got a bad unit.

Best of luck.


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## Philthy (Jul 24, 2007)

Radio Enginerd said:


> Sorry to hear about your experience. I'm Italian so I like to exaggerate  but you've really had 30 something missed programs with your HR-20?
> 
> Sounds like you've already made up your mind or maybe you really want to go back to Echostar but I would first recommend that you have your HR-20 replaced. Sounds like you got a bad unit.
> 
> Best of luck.


No kidding... I have never missed a program... Sounds like a very baddddd unit! Get it replaced..


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

If it looked like a bad unit, I'd replace it in a heartbeat. But the logic doesn't flow. When I was missing Heroes episodes, I logged in here and found dozens of posts from people missing Heroes episodes. My problems cleared up after a software fix, and nobody else was reporting the same problem.

During the summer the unit was stable/working. The forums were full of "wish list" complaints, not major issues.

6 months later I notice that programs are being missed. I log in here, and the forums are full of people complaining about missed programs. 

In short, logic would suggest that my problem is the same as all the other complaints and that this isn't my unit in particular.

That said, I'd be happy to do any diagnosis that people would like.

I'd even be fine with resetting the unit, if DirecTV would fix the reset to not delete stored programs. I'd be willing to do all the work to set up my series links again. I simply can't replace much of the programming that I have stored. It's mostly 1-off stuff.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

I also have never had a missed recording.. and I've had 2 HR20's for about a year... and I record a good bit of stuff... have you at least tried swapping the box out and giving another one a shot??

edit: also.. i've never had a reset delete ANYTHING...


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

AirRocker said:


> edit: also.. i've never had a reset delete ANYTHING...


Huh?

Clue me in. Everything I have read here and from the prompt in the unit itself says I will lose all saved programs. If there is a way to reset the unit and save my existing stuff, I'm all ears.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

I've never lost any recordings by reseting as well.

Are you talking about a menu reset or a reset everything?


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

jorhett said:


> Huh?
> 
> Clue me in. Everything I have read here and from the prompt in the unit itself says I will lose all saved programs. If there is a way to reset the unit and save my existing stuff, I'm all ears.


"Restart Receiver" should not delete any programs.

Over 1,000 of us do this pretty much each Friday night to apply updates.


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## CousCous (Sep 17, 2006)

I think the wording might be to blame there.

There's "Restart" and "Reset" but they're both under the same option in the Setup.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jorhett said:


> Where exactly is 1/2 of the posts in this forum not being enough users to warrant an investigation?
> 
> Starting with a fresh baseline would make me lose a lot of valuable and oft irreplacable programming. Many of the things I have recorded won't ever be released on DVD. That's a very high cost, given that *ZERO* attempt has been made to diagnose it otherwise.
> 
> It's not like diagnosing it was attempting, and this is the last resort. That, I would understand. But zero diagnosis was attempted, and thus I am suggesting that the very high cost of a reformat doesn't make sense to me right now.


Most of this thread has been trying to explain what to do and why or what to do it for.
I don't know what you do for a living. I have spent 30 years with systems much more complex than this DVR as a system troubleshooter. Along the way I've gotten a feel for how the pieces work and what can cause what type of fault. This comes from shear experience.
I've tried to explain to you but for the most part you just disagree.
I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.
I can offer help, but I can't make you take it.
I can explain, but I can't make you believe it.

Good luck, 
there are others that may want the help.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

CousCous said:


> I think the wording might be to blame there.
> 
> There's "Restart" and "Reset" but they're both under the same option in the Setup.


Yes, good point.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

jorhett said:


> Huh?
> 
> Clue me in. Everything I have read here and from the prompt in the unit itself says I will lose all saved programs. If there is a way to reset the unit and save my existing stuff, I'm all ears.


sorry... i thought you were just talking about a "reboot" of the receiver... on the other option... yes, you will lose everthing...


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## or270 (Feb 12, 2006)

jorhett said:


> Um, no. I have still 100 hours of programming to watch/record-to-dvd. Really.


Are you using the HR20 with the Hard Drive is comes with, at 100 hours the drive would be about full.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

jorhett said:


> This probably sounds like a whining thread, but its not. I'm just tired. Moderator, feel free to lock this thread against replies.
> 
> I just went over to the VIP622 forum and found 3 reported problems. 3 reported problems in 5 pages of threads.
> 
> ...


This is not a normal HR20 problem. I have missed exactly NO shows in 6 months of heavy use due to HR20 failures. I have had exactly ONE show record badly. I've missed others, but I know why (power failure, false guide data, etc). Consider one of two possibilities:

1) You have a lemon and need to exchange it for a working one.

2) You have a problem elsewhere in your system, and the HR20 isn't it. Do you get "searching for signal" at all while watching a live show?


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

or270 said:


> Are you using the HR20 with the Hard Drive is comes with, at 100 hours the drive would be about full.


Ah, could this be the issue? If you don't set the record options on series correctly, it will keep them and not delete them automatically. You might not have had hard drive space for the shows you were wanting to record.

If you go into list and hit the yellow "to do" button it will indicate if it will record the program or not.

I have never had my HR20 miss a recording, except cutting off Grey Anatomy early, but that was an issue with the guide being updated in the middle of the show.

If it is not an issue with the retention and lack of space, then like others have said, you must have a bad HR20 and would get it replaced before jumping ship.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

One good way to miss recordings: keep a lot of old recordings and mark them "Keep". That way the disk may not have room for the next recording. 

Don't know exactly how the HR20 works, but it may require a continuous region of disk for a recording, and the holes between the many saved recordings may not contain any one area big enough for a large recording.

So, it may SAY "30% free" and yet have no room for that football game.

Try the "record, watch, delete" cycle.

Does anyone know how the HR20 does garbage collection?


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Most of this thread has been trying to explain what to do and why or what to do it for.
> I don't know what you do for a living. I have spent 30 years with systems much more complex than this DVR as a system troubleshooter. Along the way I've gotten a feel for how the pieces work and what can cause what type of fault. This comes from shear experience.
> I've tried to explain to you but for the most part you just disagree.
> I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.
> ...


I'm a systems engineer for a living. I understand diagnosis.

You haven't explained anything, nor have you tried to lead the "horse to water". All you said was "reset, start over and see if it fixes anything".

That's just rebooting, it's not diagnosis. If you have 30 years experience (sorry, but I doubt that) that you'd know the difference. You can't diagnose anything after a full reset.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

kcmurphy88 said:


> One good way to miss recordings: keep a lot of old recordings and mark them "Keep". That way the disk may not have room for the next recording.


Um, I can count. Really. It says 48% free.



> Don't know exactly how the HR20 works, but it may require a continuous region of disk for a recording, and the holes between the many saved recordings may not contain any one area big enough for a large recording.
> So, it may SAY "30% free" and yet have no room for that football game.
> 
> Try the "record, watch, delete" cycle.
> ...


I have often brought it to 11% free without any problem. So I agree with your logic, but I've never had this problem in practice.

FYI: it appears to be an FFS filesystem, which would have no problem with fragmentation.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

or270 said:


> Are you using the HR20 with the Hard Drive is comes with, at 100 hours the drive would be about full.


No. Only 12 of my programs are HD. I've had upwards of 140 hours on here several times, no problem.


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

jacksonm30354 said:


> If you go into list and hit the yellow "to do" button it will indicate if it will record the program or not.


Yes, duh. As stated in my original report, before I left for the weekend I went into the Todo list (the yellow button) and confirmed that the shows were set to record. When I returned the shows weren't recorded, and it had 42% free at the time.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

First of all... Lets take it easy on the language/implied language... People here are just trying to help you... And a lot of people may not read all the way back in the post to realize that you've said something over and over and over already... 

Second of all... not EVERYONE is having the exact same problems at the exact same time... Which would lead people to believe maybe you do have a lemon... or maybe lots of people have lemons... but a lot of us also have boxes that function properly and don't lose recordings... so maybe it would be worth your time to try another box that hopefully won't have these problems..


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

I'm a little bit surprised no one has suggested this - at least in the last couple of pages that I checked.

There may well be a way to effectively reset the entire receiver without losing your recordings. Now, I'll admit upfront that I could be completely wrong on this......so if I am just delete this and continue on.... 

If you feel like investing some money - go out and get yourself an external SATA drive.

Unplug the unit, plug in the eSATA - when you start it back up you'll get a reformat (well - effectively, since it will format the drive).

Try it for a couple of weeks and see if the problems still occur. Your recordings will still be on the internal drive - and should be 'reasonably' safe.


Just an idea, FWIW.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

OK, way less than 50%, but when I checked, out of the top 65 threads this morning, these 8 dealt with shows not recording or not being able to be set up as expected. .

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102942
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91585
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102686
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102893
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102063
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102866
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102031
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102814

This is only 12%, but IMO, still a significant number which points to 2 things.

1. DirecTV needs to step it up with Tribune since they pay them for guide data.

2. They need to write some better code that allows the HR20 to more gracefully handle iffy data

This is too much to be ignored. I know that people who complain on boards like this are not a statistically valid sample, but if a small percentage of the general population has similar problems, it is not somethign DirecTV should ignore unless they want their customers to have less than optimal experiences fresh in their minds when the Cable company sends a flyer or a guy knocks on the door.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jorhett said:


> I'm a systems engineer for a living. I understand diagnosis.
> 
> You haven't explained anything, nor have you tried to lead the "horse to water". All you said was "reset, start over and see if it fixes anything".
> 
> That's just rebooting, it's not diagnosis. If you have 30 years experience (sorry, but I doubt that) that you'd know the difference. You can't diagnose anything after a full reset.


The Horse seems to be a mule.
You don't want help.
You either just want to complain or want someone to wave a magic wand.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jorhett...

Are there specific error codes in the history for the missed programs? That could be important info.

If that doesn't yield anything, you could try setting up some recordings and observe what happens. Then check the history on those shows.

Is there a pattern to what doesn't record? Are there patterns to what DOES record? 

What's the internal temp? As you're aware, temperature issues can cause flakey operation with no apparent cause or pattern. 

In lieu of a reset/reformat, you could try connecting an eSATA drive. This may help determine if there's a problem with the internal drive. Since you can remove this drive later, re-enabling the internal drive, this gives the added benefit of not actually losing any data/recordings.

As a systems engineer, you know that if you don't have admin/superuser access to the software you have to troubleshoot the hardware. That plus the fact that the machine wasn't designed to be diagnosed by the end user limits your options.

Let us know what you find.

Good Luck :biggthump 

Mike


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

I have an SL for Private Practice on my local OTA channel and last night's showing did not record. I checked the history and it said "This show was cancelled because it became unavailable (3)". My box says it has 75% available and I am not sure what's going on. I did have another recording but it recorded fine and have recorded two shows at the same time on many occassions. I am currently on the national release for software on my HR20.

Any thoughts on what I can do to help this from occurring again?


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

kcmurphy88 said:


> This is not a normal HR20 problem. I have missed exactly NO shows in 6 months of heavy use due to HR20 failures. I have had exactly ONE show record badly. I've missed others, but I know why (power failure, false guide data, etc). Consider one of two possibilities:
> 
> 1) You have a lemon and need to exchange it for a working one.
> 
> 2) You have a problem elsewhere in your system, and the HR20 isn't it. Do you get "searching for signal" at all while watching a live show?


The false guide data is a horrible reason to miss recordings, I hope we all don't get complacent and group it along with power failure.


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

Big Shots didn't record tonight, guide data changed. When is D* going to address this fault in the software?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

shedberg said:


> I have an SL for Private Practice on my local OTA channel and last night's showing did not record. I checked the history and it said "This show was cancelled because it became unavailable (3)". My box says it has 75% available and I am not sure what's going on. I did have another recording but it recorded fine and have recorded two shows at the same time on many occassions. I am currently on the national release for software on my HR20.
> 
> Any thoughts on what I can do to help this from occurring again?


I wish I knew. I'll do you one better... my MANUAL recording of "Private Practice" didn't record last night either! I had set up a recurring MANUAL 60 minute recording, to try to avoid the ABC ":01" monkey business that bumps shows in the next hour. I heard it from the wife on this one. /steve


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

Ok, I don't get why there is so much discrepancy on the missed recordings issues. Why is it that you can go through multiple threads of people with the SAME problem and then a slew of folks seemingly in agreement that there is a problem with the way the HR20 handles guide data changes and acknowledgment of missed recordings with error (3) but then you can see threads where the general tone is, "Problem - what problem?", "No problem for me", "Works great, must be you". 

Why not just acknowledge the fact that something is wrong and let's focus on pressing D* to get it fixed?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

xerxes said:


> Ok, I don't get why there is so much discrepancy on the missed recordings issues. Why is it that you can go through multiple threads of people with the SAME problem and then a slew of folks seemingly in agreement that there is a problem with the way the HR20 handles guide data changes and acknowledgment of missed recordings with error (3) but then you can see threads where the general tone is, "Problem - what problem?", "No problem for me", "Works great, must be you".
> 
> Why not just acknowledge the fact that something is wrong and let's focus on pressing D* to get it fixed?


I guess finding out what is wrong could be a good start.
If it's the guide: start tracking the shows and times zones that have the problems.
Right now I can't help since what I record "does", but long ago I did have this problem so I do understand how you feel. 
Start a new thread listing the shows and time zones. Then track those that did or didn't have the problem.
This may not be the answer but so far "the problem" is too general to see the "if or what".
Well that's my two cents.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I guess finding out what is wrong could be a good start.
> If it's the guide: start tracking the shows and times zones that have the problems.
> Right now I can't help since what I record "does", but long ago I did have this problem so I do understand how you feel.
> Start a new thread listing the shows and time zones. Then track those that did or didn't have the problem.
> ...


VOS,

Some of us have been doing that for months. There are certain shows they could set SL for and experience it all for themselves. After three months of constant reports they really do owe us a comment on the issue at least and much more appropriately a fix.


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## kbcrowe (May 22, 2006)

What would be helpful is a single "Official" sticky thread only for people having problems with missed recordings where the mods would delete all the useless posts from people who feel the uncontrollable urge to defend the HR20 with post along the lines of "Its 100% perfect for me". I can believe it really does work well for many people, I don't understand why those people can't believe it doesn't work well for me and many others.

Maybe we could find commonality then. Could it be a certain multi switch setup? Could it be a certain timezone? Could it be "moved" users?

I guess D* wouldn't like that to have that kind of visability that *some* people are having problems though.


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## richa65 (Dec 4, 2006)

kbcrowe said:


> What would be helpful is a single "Official" sticky thread only for people having problems with missed recordings


I think that's a fantastic idea. To take it a step further, there should be a template that anyone can fill out such as:

*Model:
Show Name:
Your Time Zone:
Your Location:
Time Scheduled to Record:
Channel:
Other items recording simultaneously:
Other items recording immediately prior:
Other items recording immediately after:
HD, SD, or OTA HD:
Error Code from History:*
etc. (I'm sure someone can come up with a better template than I can)

If anyone chooses to free form it - mods delete the reply. If anyone posts, "Yeah, me too" delete it. If someone posts "this HR20 is awesome". Delete. Just a clean thread showing who is missing what recording and the pertinent details about their situation. No commentary about how the HR20 is a door stop. No flame wars about Tivos, Dish Network, or how you've switched to cable and it truly is Comcastic.


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## jcloudm (Oct 13, 2006)

I'm starting to think this has more to do with which program is being recorded instead of which software version. Look at all these reports in the cutting edge forum of almost identical problems:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102483

My post on the top of page 3 details the three times it happened to me.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Ken S said:


> VOS,
> 
> Some of us have been doing that for months. There are certain shows they could set SL for and experience it all for themselves. After three months of constant reports they really do owe us a comment on the issue at least and much more appropriately a fix.


I'll try it out. Which SL's could I set?

Mike


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> I'll try it out. Which SL's could I set?
> 
> Mike


I will too - more data points = easier to convince someone of a problem.
If someone will list the SLs I'll set them up on an HR20 and an R15 that sit side-by-side.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

MicroBeta said:


> I'll try it out. Which SL's could I set?
> 
> Mike





dbmaven said:


> I will too - more data points = easier to convince someone of a problem.
> If someone will list the SLs I'll set them up on an HR20 and an R15 that sit side-by-side.


Go to the Blue's Clues thread and, off the top of my head, you'll see there are issues with Blues Clues, Dora and Wonderpets. Any of those would be a data points to check.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91585

At least for me, the errors do not occur every day for the SLs I have set up, for instance, yesterday (thursday), Dora failed while Blues Clues and Wonderpets recorded. The day prior, all three failed. All of my failures were on Nick 1.

Ken has had issues with similar shows on Noggin.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

xerxes said:


> Ok, I don't get why there is so much discrepancy on the missed recordings issues. Why is it that you can go through multiple threads of people with the SAME problem and then a slew of folks seemingly in agreement that there is a problem with the way the HR20 handles guide data changes and acknowledgment of missed recordings with error (3) but then you can see threads where the general tone is, "Problem - what problem?", "No problem for me", "Works great, must be you".
> 
> Why not just acknowledge the fact that something is wrong and let's focus on pressing D* to get it fixed?


We should all try to call or email D* every time this happens as well.


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## robmfielding (May 30, 2007)

I am having consistent problems taping two shows and missing recordings:

Passions on the 101, M-R at 2pm. It is missing half the recordings and there is nothing in the history. I went to the Prioritizer to look at the Series Link and it said their was no upcoming episodes, even though there were many in the guide. 

Chelsea Lately at 11:30pm each weeknight. Again missing recordings, maybe, one quarter to one half of them. 

I deleted and re-added Passions at least a couple times to the series list. This has been going on for a couple weeks. (Passions only started a couple weeks ago)

I am using an HR20-700 with the latest national release software 18. 

Any ideas? All other recordings seem to be fine, Heroes on national local, Survivorman on national cable, and Smallville on OTA local and many others.

The only pattern is these two recordings that are missed are national cable channels that recur each day. Again there is nothing in the history regarding these recordings, they just vanish.


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

raott said:


> Go to the Blue's Clues thread and, off the top of my head, you'll see there are issues with Blues Clues, Dora and Wonderpets. Any of those would be a data points to check.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91585
> 
> ...


Ugh. Too many conflicting pieces of information.

raott - if you give me the exact setups you have for those 3 shows, I'll duplicate them in both the HR20 and the R15. I want to eliminate as many variables as possible - so if I get them and you don't that indicates a different problem than if we both don't get them.

Thanks.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

dbmaven said:


> Ugh. Too many conflicting pieces of information.
> 
> raott - if you give me the exact setups you have for those 3 shows, I'll duplicate them in both the HR20 and the R15. I want to eliminate as many variables as possible - so if I get them and you don't that indicates a different problem than if we both don't get them.
> 
> Thanks.


I'll double check my series links tonight or tomorrow and post what I have set up.

I'm also going to double check my R15 series links (I have several for the same shows as the HR20 but I don't know if they are on the same channel or not) and compare to see what happens this coming week.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Can I suggest starting a new thread?
At over 150 posts here, you might get more responses related to your need in a fresh thread.


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Can I suggest starting a new thread?
> At over 150 posts here, you might get more responses related to your need in a fresh thread.


I was thinking along the same lines - a controlled "test plan" that eliminates/introduces variables in a logical manner so that the root cause can be narrowed down. If a group of people can set up identical SLs, and have identical results, that means something. If there are a variety of different results, the patterns may mean something else.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dbmaven said:


> I was thinking along the same lines - a controlled "test plan" that eliminates/introduces variables in a logical manner so that the root cause can be narrowed down. If a group of people can set up identical SLs, and have identical results, that means something. If there are a variety of different results, the patterns may mean something else.


This thread as kind of run it's course.
Here's some of ideas:
Stick to the HR-20, since other models aren't really relevant.
List:
the model [-100 or -700]
the show [ national or local DMA & which]
times since last reboot/reset [since this will effect guide data]
series link or not
"not recorded" or "blank recording"

and to have tolerance for "mine works fine" posts. 

This approach seems much more constructive than just the continual complaining threads.
Let's use the power of the forum to get some good data and patterns.


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## vurbano (May 15, 2004)

But the HR20 is superior to the HR10-250.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Here's some that regularly have problems:
All Times Eastern.

These have been setup either off the guide or a search.

Blue's Clues at Noon on 298 Noggin
Jack's Big Music Show at 10:30AM on 298 Noggin
The Hills at 8:30PM on 331 MTV (shows several times a day at times)
Newport Harbor: The Real Orange County at 8PM on 331 MTV (shows several times a day at times)
The Wiggles at 7AM on 290 Disney

Every so often we get a good week, but it's rare. Sometimes the HR20 will pickup other showings at different times. In general 2 out of 5 showings a week don't record.

If you're going to start a new thread that's fine...but we did it for quite a while in the Blue's Clues Thread. Several people participated and the complaints were kept to a minimum. After no comment, fix, etc from DirecTV though you have to expect disgust to set in. 
There should be plenty of data for anyone interested at DirecTV to recreate this issue.

It would also be nice if someone that has both an HR20 and a DirecTivo setup the same links. I check with a buddy that has a DirecTivo to compare notes...but it'd be better at the same location. My experience that EVERYTIME the HR20 has not recorded a show with an error 13 the DirecTivo did record the show.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

vurbano said:


> But the HR20 is superior to the HR10-250.


It is...I'm enjoying the new HD on the HR20 that the HR10 can't get. The HR10 is, therefor, inferior.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> It would also be nice if someone that has both an HR20 and a DirecTivo setup the same links. I check with a buddy that has a DirecTivo to compare notes...but it'd be better at the same location. My experience that EVERYTIME the HR20 has not recorded a show with an error 13 the DirecTivo did record the show.


Doesn't Tivo and the HR-20 use different guide data? I've read [somewhere] that Tivo converts [or something] the guide data from TMS to work with their boxes.
If this is true, then isn't this apples and oranges?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Doesn't Tivo and the HR-20 use different guide data? I've read [somewhere] that Tivo converts [or something] the guide data from TMS to work with their boxes.
> If this is true, then isn't this apples and oranges?


From what I've been told, TiVo and D* both get the source GUIDE data from TMS. I do not know whether or not TiVo or D* ask TMS to format the data differently before delivery. TiVo then passes the data along to D* for delivery to DirecTiVo's, "massaged" by TiVo (or the HR10, or TMS to TiVo's specs). I don't know if D* massages the TMS feed before they send to the HR20.

So the source of the data is the same, but how it's handled differs. And D* definitely passes along less program information data. It's been reported by users who still have both that the same shows on the HR10 show many more actors and the "original air date", e.g.

/steve


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Doesn't Tivo and the HR-20 use different guide data? I've read [somewhere] that Tivo converts [or something] the guide data from TMS to work with their boxes.
> If this is true, then isn't this apples and oranges?


VOS,

It would indicate that it wasn't a signal problem and that whatever the problem is can be corrected.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> VOS,
> 
> It would indicate that it wasn't a signal problem and that whatever the problem is can be corrected.


Which is kind of why I think this should be broken out of this thread and have some good data collecting of what shows are the problem.
"Blank" recording maybe be something else [keep or delete] while canceled [for no reason] seem to be guide related. But then what the hell do I know? :lol:


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## surfbird (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't record much on mine, but I've never had anything weird happen to my hr20 yet. (knock on wood) but something I do once a week since I am a little ocd is I just hit the reset button once a week.. won't hurt it & doesn't bother what I've recorded. I don't know if anyone here does that on a regular basis?? just curious..


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

surfbird said:


> I don't record much on mine, but I've never had anything weird happen to my hr20 yet. (knock on wood) but something I do once a week since I am a little ocd is I just hit the reset button once a week.. won't hurt it & doesn't bother what I've recorded. I don't know if anyone here does that on a regular basis?? just curious..


It has long been posted to use the menu reset option over the red button. This is much nicer to the hard drive than the red button. Of course if you can't get to the menu the red button is all you have.


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

Ken S - 

The Hills at 8:30PM on 331 MTV (shows several times a day at times)
Newport Harbor: The Real Orange County at 8PM on 331 MTV (shows several times a day at times)

Both of these recorded fine on both the HR20-100 and R15-500 tonite.


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

Here is another idea, how about DirectTV's own QA team tests recording series links of prime time shows on multiple HR20's and then investigates the causes of error (3) and (13) and makes code changes to correct. I think the frequency of occurrence that has been reported here and I am sure to the CSR's warrants this.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dbmaven said:


> Ken S -
> 
> The Hills at 8:30PM on 331 MTV (shows several times a day at times)
> Newport Harbor: The Real Orange County at 8PM on 331 MTV (shows several times a day at times)
> ...


db,

Let them run for a week if you can. I notice most of the (13s) on those occur when there are multiple showings in a row.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

xerxes said:


> Here is another idea, how about DirectTV's own QA team tests recording series links of prime time shows on multiple HR20's and then investigates the causes of error (3) and (13) and makes code changes to correct. I think the frequency of occurrence that has been reported here and I am sure to the CSR's warrants this.


After over three months of reporting these issues that would be my vote.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

If someone wants to start another thread (again), fine. I will participate (again) and log my missed recordings (again). I have logged dozens of these in the Blue's Clues thread, and as was said, there is plenty of information there. Now that this has happened on a prime time show, maybe it will get on someone's to do list.

The only thing that needs to be done to recreate this is to set up a SL for one of the many shows that have been doing this regularly for months. It's not specific to the -700, or -100, or the R15. It is, however, specific to the DIRECTV Plus DVR systems.

*This is a guide data problem*, and it has been since *May*. I understand the difficulty of getting TMS to provide error free data. What I don't understand is how the HR20 still can't deal with it. It's not like the data is _complete_ crap, the problem is that the HR20 bails at the slightest hiccup.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Cygnus,

I've been fearing lately this is a database schema problem with the HR20.

I wonder if the Tivo data has an ID number attached to each show...and the HR20 just uses a name match of some sort.

If the only way to fix this is to add an additional field to both the HR20's internal database and the data, they could have a real issue. 

Let's hope not.

The reason I think they're tight on space is the sparse amount of information we see on each show. I should start doing char counts and see if it comes in around one of those magical 64, 128, 256 numbers.

I also wonder if it was an internal database issue that is causing the long delay in getting CIR fixed.

Anyway...just a guess. I'm not sure which is worse...thinking it's a relatively easy fix that they're not interested in doing or that it's a problem that won't be fixed for a long, long time.


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

Ken S said:


> db,
> 
> Let them run for a week if you can. I notice most of the (13s) on those occur when there are multiple showings in a row.


Both of them, as well as Blues Clues, are set up as series links, record both, start and end on-time, keep at most 5 episodes.

I'm leaving them there for the duration......
Every night I will check each recording - I'll 30-second skip through the entire show to make sure it recorded everything it was supposed to - on both the R15 and HR20.

BTW - the R15 will be running the current CE software - 115E. That shouldn't make any difference with the guide - but I thought I would mention it.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dbmaven said:


> Both of them, as well as Blues Clues, are set up as series links, record both, start and end on-time, keep at most 5 episodes.
> 
> I'm leaving them there for the duration......
> Every night I will check each recording - I'll 30-second skip through the entire show to make sure it recorded everything it was supposed to - on both the R15 and HR20.
> ...


If you skip through Blue's Clues though you'll know the answer without having to find the clues and sit in your thinking chair. That's cheating!


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Cygnus,
> 
> I've been fearing lately this is a database schema problem with the HR20.
> 
> ...


You know, Ken, in a strange way, I hope it is some kind of fundamental problem that is making this a difficult fix. If it's an easy fix, and it has just been ignored to date, because it is only happening for "kids" shows..... Well, nevermind.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Ken S said:


> Cygnus,
> 
> I've been fearing lately this is a database schema problem with the HR20.
> 
> ...


I may be wrong but I thought a long time ago when the R15 was missing events where "TBA" was in the title instead of the actual and then the title in the schedule was later updated to reflect the actual teams playing, it was determined that tivo does exactly that - that is it places a unique identifier on each show so when a show goes from "teams TBA" to Yanks v Indians, there is no issue.

That would also explain why the HR20 was unable to pick up the baseball games this past wednesday when the schedule changed late morning but tivo based units did record the games.

You would think this sort of thing would be hashed out in product development.


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

Ken S said:


> Let them run for a week if you can. I notice most of the (13s) on those occur when there are multiple showings in a row.


Report:

All episodes for both Saturday and Sunday recorded as scheduled on both R-15 and HR-20. This included 5 episodes in a row of 'The Hills' - something like 5AM to 7:30 AM.

No issues to report so far.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

xerxes said:


> Here is another idea, how about DirectTV's own QA team tests recording series links of prime time shows on multiple HR20's and then investigates the causes of error (3) and (13) and makes code changes to correct. I think the frequency of occurrence that has been reported here and I am sure to the CSR's warrants this.


I wonder how many people have actually reported issues with recordings to the CSRs? I think often, people are resigned to issues and don't want to talk to a CSR that probably cannot understand the issue or does not care enough. But, we need to call them to get this fixed.


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

Blues Clues Recorded earlier today on both with no issues.

~end report~


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## tealcomp (Sep 7, 2007)

Rosenpants said:


> I'm brand-new to this forum and have been watching it ever since I bought my new 50" panasonic plasma.
> 
> I haven't yet switched to HD DirecTV, but from all the problems I see people having on here, I'm very hesitant to switch from my old (series 1!) DirecTivo to the HR20.
> 
> Is making the change worth it? I assume the answer is "yes", but all the posts on here really have me concerned about quality. My old Tivo has been bulletproof under very heavy usage for many years.


Hi:

Welcome to the forum :welcome_s

I am new to the HR-20 as well; so far, (going on a week now) the box has been flawless (knock on wood). As others have suggested, you are rarely going to hear people who have absolutely no problems; but you will hear from the people that do (and that is good, that's what all of us are here for). My suggestion is read some of the relevant posts, and make your decision from that. I've used TIVO in the past, SAGE and a few other systems; the HR-20 is at home already. OK, I am a geek by profession and hobby so that helps some too; but seriously, they have put a lot of effort into making this a great user experience.

-Dan


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## jorhett (Nov 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The Horse seems to be a mule.
> You don't want help.
> You either just want to complain or want someone to wave a magic wand.


This kind of hypocrisy is downright amazing. You haven't offered any help. You've only claimed I had a lemon -- which we can rule out since I started having trouble at the exact same time as everyone else -- and that I should reformat, which just isn't practical.

I'm not expecting a magic wand, but offering an excuse and then just being rude are *not* helpful.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jorhett said:


> This kind of hypocrisy is downright amazing. You haven't offered any help. You've only claimed I had a lemon -- which we can rule out since I started having trouble at the exact same time as everyone else -- and that I should reformat, which just isn't practical.
> 
> I'm not expecting a magic wand, but offering an excuse and then just being rude are *not* helpful.


Oh never-mind [six days later].
You don't want help.
You just want to complain or somewhere long ago in this thread, you wouldn't have refused or argued with everything offered.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I tend to think this issue has been discussed to its logical conclusion in this thread, no point in anyone picking on anyone, so... thread closed.


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