# Cost of HD programming?



## shappy (May 28, 2007)

Am I correct that everyone is paying $20/mo for HD? I am getting ready to upgrade to a 622 and HD and I am having a bit of sticker shock at the price, especially when Comcast is charging $5/mo. 

Other than network prime time shows, the only other HD programs I will really be interested in HD (assuming FX never gets their HD act together) is a program on TNT (The Closer) and one on Universal HD (BSG, for one more season).

I know I could get OTA HD with an antennae for free, but I would like to take advantage of being able to have three recording inputs, but I am not loving the idea of paying $20/mo for that ability.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

The $20 is for the HD package only. You will also have a $5.98 DVR fee and possibly a $6 lease fee unless the 622 is your primary receiver.


----------



## shappy (May 28, 2007)

Yeah, those fees too, which really don't bother me. It is just that $20 strikes me as a bit pricey for HD programming. Am I the only one?


----------



## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

$20 per month for 32 HD channels? How many does Comcast give you for $5.


----------



## shappy (May 28, 2007)

garys said:


> $20 per month for 32 HD channels? How many does Comcast give you for $5.


About 25 including my locals. For me personally, the only HD channel that E* offers that Comcast does not is Universal HD. Plus, I think most people would agree that it is about quality not quantity and many of the HD channels that E* includes (like VOOM) are really more noise than signal.

I guess I am just complaining a bit since E* sort of has me by the short hairs since they seem to be the only supplier of HD that can offer me a multiple tuner HD DVR (hopefully with expanded recording capacity) and the ability to send the an SD signal to all rooms in my house and control the DVR with an RF remote.


----------



## booger (Nov 1, 2005)

shappy said:


> About 25 including my locals. For me personally, the only HD channel that E* offers that Comcast does not is Universal HD. Plus, I think most people would agree that it is about quality not quantity and many of the HD channels that E* includes (like VOOM) are really more noise than signal.
> 
> I guess I am just complaining a bit since E* sort of has me by the short hairs since they seem to be the only supplier of HD that can offer me a multiple tuner HD DVR (hopefully with expanded recording capacity) and the ability to send the an SD signal to all rooms in my house and control the DVR with an RF remote.


Some of the Voom channels are movies that have been upgraded to 1080i. But for me, Rave and Universal HD look fantastic. If you want quality, E* is it, not cable. There is no way in hell that cable picture quality will trump E* or D* for that matter.

25 HD channels for $5.00. It's got to be a special that will end in a matter of months. I could be wrong but nothing you've stated makes any sense.


----------



## shappy (May 28, 2007)

My bad, it is $6.95.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Following that link (which asks for my address) I see 15 channels, 6 are free OTA locals (or soon will be), 4 require premium subscription. None of them are "$6.95" ... they are part of bigger packages.


----------



## dmspen (Dec 1, 2006)

So $7 for the programming and...$11.95 for one DVR...plus 112.95 for Premier packaging. That's $131.40. My total E* package is $128 with one 622 DVR, one 522 DVR. E* also has more basic channels.

Of course you can get a discount if you get Comcast internet and phone.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

If you don't need the national channels, you can go with the substantially lower HD enabling fee.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

shappy said:


> Am I correct that everyone is paying $20/mo for HD? I am getting ready to upgrade to a 622 and HD and I am having a bit of sticker shock at the price, especially when Comcast is charging $5/mo.
> 
> Other than network prime time shows, the only other HD programs I will really be interested in HD (assuming FX never gets their HD act together) is a program on TNT (The Closer) and one on Universal HD (BSG, for one more season).
> 
> ...


No, you are not missing anything. The $20 HD fee is the highest in the industry
and is not worth it. I have had Dish HD since August 2004 and am leaving next
month when my 18 month commitment ends. Do not listen to this baloney that
Dish offers 32 channels and how many does Comcast offer? The real issue
is how many of the Dish HD channels are you actually going to watch.
With Dish HD, I was still watching most of my HD programming OTA. It is not
smart to pay more for more HD channels, when you do not watch the channels.

I will give you an example of HD prices. In my area, central NJ, I have Verizon
HD and currently you can get all of the Verizon programming including HD premiums, such as SHO, HBO, Cinemax, Starz and TMC for $76 a month. It includes
36 HD channels. The comparable Dish package is America's Everything Pak for
$90, $5 for locals and $20 for HD or total of $115. Dish is $39 a month more
and there are less channels. Patriot Media my local cable company which is being
bought by Comcast offers expanded basic for $56, and $10 for the HD plus tier.
This includes all HD channels for $66 a month (23 channels total including
Comcast Sportsnet HD, YES HD and SNY HD). Dish says that YES HD is too expensive to offer, but Verizon, Comcast, Directv, Patriot Media and Cablevision
all offer YES HD and charge less for HD than Dish. Cablevision in my county offers
about 40 HD channels for $48 per month including the 15 Voom channels.
Directv's HD charge is only $10 per month and Directv has said that it will not
raise prices in September when they begin offering the new HD channels.

I am interested to see if Dish will retain the $20 HD fee next year. Dish has not
revealed its percentage of HD subscribers. All the other multi video providers
have revealed the number of HD subs. Not revealing the percentage of HD
subs is a tell tale sign that Dish is trailing in the nubmer of HD subs.

Also, the PQ of Verizon HD and OTA HD is superior to Dish's HD PQ. The cable HD
PQ is similar to Dish. Dish does not have an advantage in PQ over cable especially
when viewed on a 1080P TV.

OTA HD is great. I bought two Sony HD DVRs that are hooked up to my OTA antenna, and I use these DVRs for time shifting ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox.
I am generally watching HD sports on Verizon Fios or MLB EI on cable while I timeshift OTA.


----------



## shappy (May 28, 2007)

Glad to see that someone gets my point. It is not how many channels but how many I will actually watch.

I may end up (if it is possible) getting a 622 and just recording OTA HD for free. Then again, I don't plan to get a 622 until they enable external storage, but that is for another thread.


----------



## dahenny (Apr 16, 2007)

I live in RFD Egypt:grin: ...ur...um...I mean out in the far reaches of the Blue Ridge Mtns. I think it is nice that you have so many choices. I, for one have only one choice and am quite happy paying $20 extra for hd.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

shappy said:


> Glad to see that someone gets my point. It is not how many channels but how many I will actually watch.
> 
> I may end up (if it is possible) getting a 622 and just recording OTA HD for free. Then again, I don't plan to get a 622 until they enable external storage, but that is for another thread.


The 622 is a good receiver. If you are going to get a Dish package and not pay
for locals, recording OTA HD is a good idea. However, you will not get any TV guide
data for recording OTA. With my Sony DVR, I do get TV guide data which is more
than adequate. Dish requires you to sub to locals to get guide data for OTA. So
it defeats the purpose of saving the money. But you can still record OTA on
your 622 without guide data. You just have to set it up manually.

I paid for Dish locals and never got OTA guide data on my 622. Dish's explanation
was that my zip code crossed over between two DMA's (NY and Phila) and the
software was not able to give me guide data. The promised a fix in February 2006, that would take a while, but they never fixed it. When I called Dish to check up on the fix at the beginning of this year, the answer I got was "well you have not called about it recently".


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

dahenny said:


> I live in RFD Egypt:grin: ...ur...um...I mean out in the far reaches of the Blue Ridge Mtns. I think it is nice that you have so many choices. I, for one have only one choice and am quite happy paying $20 extra for hd.


I understand that I am lucky to have so many choices. Choices also force down
prices. Comcast, Cablevision and Patriot Media have not been able to raise
prices because of the entry of Verizon into the market. Verizion has lowered
prices by about 20 to 25 percent. Unfortunately, if you live in an area without
competition, the providers charge whatever they can get away with.

But if the Dish programming to your taste, the HD is great. I would not sub to
Dish without HD.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

And being in Central NJ I too have a choice of Fios, Dishnetwork, DirecTV or Cablevision.

I'm staying with Dishnetwork Everything Pak and HD. What Else, Oh yes Basic cable and cable modem service. Verizon DSL is gone once I notify everybody of my new e-mail addresses. I looked at the Fios and Cablevision pricing and wasn't impressed. YMMV


----------



## mhowie (Sep 30, 2006)

shappy said:


> I guess I am just complaining a bit since E* sort of has me by the short hairs since they seem to be the only supplier of HD that can offer me a multiple tuner HD DVR (hopefully with expanded recording capacity) and the ability to send the an SD signal to all rooms in my house and control the DVR with an RF remote.


Well stated. E* is exploiting this advantage in the short-term and while it might be beneficial to their bottom line, the ill-will being created as a result could prove to be a strategic blunder as irritated and offended "customers" depart as soon as someone else comes along who can provide similar capabilities (versus pricing it reasonably and promoting a longer-term relationship based on perceived fair treatment).


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

TBoneit said:


> And being in Central NJ I too have a choice of Fios, Dishnetwork, DirecTV or Cablevision.
> 
> I'm staying with Dishnetwork Everything Pak and HD. What Else, Oh yes Basic cable and cable modem service. Verizon DSL is gone once I notify everybody of my new e-mail addresses. I looked at the Fios and Cablevision pricing and wasn't impressed. YMMV


You must like making Charlie rich or you failed math in school. Dish everythink pak
with HD and locals is $115. I was paying Dish $137 for two 622s and two SD
receivers. I am paying Verizon $101 for two HD DVRs, two HD set top boxes and two more TVs hooked up to cable coax, and I have more channels and more HD that I actually watch. Plus the Verizon Fios internet is 20/5 and cheaper than the cable modem internet that is available in central NJ with basic cable. The 20/5 Internet vs cable modem internet is like going from dial up to cable modem Internet.

After next month, Charlie is not getting any more of my money, unless he starts
providing the programming that I actually watch for a lower price.


----------



## ubankit (Jan 7, 2005)

I resent having to pay ~$35 a month for sd programming (AT200) in order to be able to subscribe to the HD pack, (that's where most of our viewing/recording occurs), only watch two stations of any significance on the sd list. But that's the way it is, at least with more competition, we eventually get better choices and smaller cost increases in programming/equipment fees. Remember the "old" days before dbs, most peoples choices were very limited.


----------



## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

ubankit said:


> I resent having to pay ~$35 a month for sd programming (AT200) in order to be able to subscribe to the HD pack, (that's where most of our viewing/recording occurs), only watch two stations of any significance on the sd list. But that's the way it is, at least with more competition, we eventually get better choices and smaller cost increases in programming/equipment fees. Remember the "old" days before dbs, most peoples choices were very limited.


You could sub to top 100( the minimum pack for hd ) for $29.99 and add dish hd for $20.00= $49.99 and save some money since you don't watch much sd channels at all. UNless you really meant top 100 + locals for $5.00 = $34.99 a month, instead of top 200.


----------



## dahenny (Apr 16, 2007)

ubankit said:


> I resent having to pay ~$35 a month for sd programming (AT200) in order to be able to subscribe to the HD pack


If I'm not mistaken, if you "own" your equipment, you can subscribe to HD only, for 29.95 a month.:grin:


----------



## ubankit (Jan 7, 2005)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> You could sub to top 100( the minimum pack for hd ) for $29.99 and add dish hd for $20.00= $49.99 and save some money since you don't watch much sd channels at all. UNless you really meant top 100 + locals for $5.00 = $34.99 a month, instead of top 200.


Have the AT200 (dvr advantage w/locals & dvr fee), believe it's 49.99 a month + the hd pack for $20, then a lease fee for the 622, $6 a month. That's a nice thought to downsize to top 100 but the channels we watch aren't in there.
Just have to accept the fact that with a bundled lineup, you don't always get the shows you want in the least expensive bundle. I figger if it ever gets to the point that $20 a month (for the hd pack in this example) is not affordable, then I'd need to seriously consider dropping pay tv (whether it's cable, sat, fios, etc) and go back to pre-dvr (and vcr) times. When more of the "presumed" networks are offered in hd (History, Sci Fi, etc) I would certainly be receptive to watching the recent programming that was shot in hd, I've gotten spoiled by the picture and just don't wanna watch it in sd More hd channels would make the $20 monthly fee seem like it's "worth it", I can understand wanting to "get what you pay for".


----------



## ubankit (Jan 7, 2005)

dahenny said:


> If I'm not mistaken, if you "own" your equipment, you can subscribe to HD only, for 29.95 a month.:grin:


The 622 is leased so that's not an option, that is interesting to know, might be useful info for others who do own their 622. I'm still licking my wounds from the 921 purchase........:nono2:


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> You could sub to top 100( the minimum pack for hd ) for $29.99 and add dish hd for $20.00= $49.99 and save some money since you don't watch much sd channels at all. UNless you really meant top 100 + locals for $5.00 = $34.99 a month, instead of top 200.


The top 100 + locals for $34.99 is no longer offered. You have to have top
100+ locals plus RSN for $39.99. So the cheapest HD package that Dish
offers with locals is $59.99 or $60 a month plus HD receiver fee and
DVR fee or $72 a month for a 622.

I know this for a fact because when I signed up for Fios, I downgraded form
America's Everything Pak, locals and HD to the cheapest Dish package with two 622s until my 18 month commitment expires. Then I dropped one of the 622s
because I had to sign up for basic cable to get MLB EI.

I have been over and over this with Dish Network customer service.
The cheapest HD package with locals and a 622 is $72 a month. Without
locals it is $62 a month.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Hound said:


> I have been over and over this with Dish Network customer service.
> The cheapest HD package with locals and a 622 is $72 a month. Without
> locals it is $62 a month.


You haven't been over and over it enough. You can get AT100 ($29.99), DishHD ($20) and locals ($5) for $54.99. Locals are available with any programming package. DishHD requires AT100 or higher. Obviously, VOD service fees (the Dish Network internal name for DVR fees), lease fees and extra receiver fees will add to the bottom line.

If you demand additional services (ie RSN), additional charges will apply.


----------



## nataraj (Feb 25, 2006)

booger said:


> There is no way in hell that cable picture quality will trump E* or D* for that matter.


Thats not true at all - though the cable HD PQ depends on the location you are in. In my case Comcast was definitely as good as - if not better than - the best E* has to offer.


----------



## nataraj (Feb 25, 2006)

shappy said:


> ... many of the HD channels that E* includes (like VOOM) are really more noise than signal.


I switched from Comcast to E* mainly because of VOOM. And it is well worth it.


----------



## nataraj (Feb 25, 2006)

Hound said:


> The real issue is how many of the Dish HD channels are you actually going to watch.


Very true. That is why I would suggest a la carte - all the way.

Infact I think this whole idea of "channels" is obsolete. What we need is VOD for evrything other than live feeds.

But until then, I'd rather have more HD channels to choose from than less.


----------



## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

booger said:


> If you want quality, E* is it, not cable. There is no way in hell that cable picture quality will trump E* or D* for that matter.


I've still got my E* and D* dishes up, care to come over with an active receiver and compare? I've done A-B comparisons between TW and D*, TW here has superior picture quality. Much less pixilated, especially the movie channels.

I pay $4.95 for three HD channels, get another 15 at no additional cost and then HBO HD and Showtime HD. So 20 HD channels total.


----------



## HD_Wayne (May 23, 2006)

dahenny said:


> If I'm not mistaken, if you "own" your equipment, you can subscribe to HD only, for 29.95 a month.:grin:


I believe that was discontinued as of 2/1/07. I recall seeing something about it recently.

Wayne


----------



## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Hound said:


> The top 100 + locals for $34.99 is no longer offered.


You are Incorrect.


----------



## dwinters (Dec 10, 2005)

I have one vip 622 receiver. Only watching on one TV. Below is my charges for the month of June. I am thinking about leaving dish because I think I am being overcharged.

Jun 25 - Jul 24 America's Top 100 with Locals 34.99
Leased Receiver Fee 6.00
DishHD 20.00
DISH Network DVR Service Fee 5.98
Atlanta GA Locals 5.99
DISH Home Protection Plan (DHPP) 5.99
Programming Access Fee 5.00
_____________________________________________
$83.95


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

dwinters said:


> I have one vip 622 receiver. Only watching on one TV. Below is my charges for the month of June. I am thinking about leaving dish because I think I am being overcharged.


I would agree that you're being overcharged because it appears that you're paying twice for locals.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Hound said:


> You must like making Charlie rich or you failed math in school. Dish everythink pak
> with HD and locals is $115. I was paying Dish $137 for two 622s and two SD
> receivers. I am paying Verizon $101 for two HD DVRs, two HD set top boxes and two more TVs hooked up to cable coax, and I have more channels and more HD that I actually watch. Plus the Verizon Fios internet is 20/5 and cheaper than the cable modem internet that is available in central NJ with basic cable. The 20/5 Internet vs cable modem internet is like going from dial up to cable modem Internet.
> 
> ...


No to both, I don't like making someone rich nor did I fail math in school.

1. Who would go to the trouble and work to start a business if they didn't hope to make it big.
2. I went back to school after many years between graduating high school and going back to continue my education. I graduated in 1998 with honors. All the different math courses I passed with an A. I remember 1 english course with a B that dragged my GPA down or I'd have been 4.0 GPA at graduation.
3. Value isn't money only. The lowest price that doesn't provide what I want is useless. I do watch the Voom channels. I just watched a show that was recorded from a Voom channel last night before leaving for work. Having a 10 A.M. start and a 5 minute drive makes life easier. BTW it recorded fine despite the thunderstorms.

Bottom line for me is that Dishnetwork is the best value since it gives me what I want.
Cable modem is giving me 18 to 23 mb throughput. Close enough to FIOS speed and it was a much simpler install. I self installed. It didn't work. Cable repair came fixed wires outside the house and it now works. Sonce I want to keep my copper phone lines Fios is not a option. When my power goes out it may be a short lived outage or it may be days long. But my old technology phones keep on working. I still have the old Western Electric Rotary dial hooked up in the basement on the workbench. If it isn't broke don't fix it works for me.

:rant: I feel sorry for those people where everything is about cost not quality.

Quality of life is important to me. I had offers to go work in the big apple. Trade in a 5 minute non rush hour drive for a 2+ hour on way comute just to make more money. Have to deal with the noise, crowding, Air quality? No thank you, even though I'd have tripled my income I passed.

If I can afford it then I eat steak, if money is tight then a Chopped steak or a premium brand of hot dogs. I Use butter not margarine. Olive oil or corn oil not rapeseed oil (Canola oil). OTOH with a 5 minute drive to work the car I bought new in 1988 is fine. 1 tank of gas a month.

I'm going through life and I want to enjoy it and not be lying there dying saying to myself I wish I hadn't pinched every penny and used the lowest grade of everything. :beatdeadhorse:

Cheers


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

dwinters said:


> I have one vip 622 receiver. Only watching on one TV. Below is my charges for the month of June. I am thinking about leaving dish because I think I am being overcharged.
> 
> Jun 25 - Jul 24 America's Top 100 with Locals 34.99
> Leased Receiver Fee 6.00
> ...


Paying twice for locals plus it appears you got your 622 via a lease upgrade program where the 1st receiver lease isn't rolled in to the package price. Connecting a phone line would save you $5 (but getting a phone line to connect can cost much more).


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

dwinters said:


> I have one vip 622 receiver. Only watching on one TV. Below is my charges for the month of June. I am thinking about leaving dish because I think I am being overcharged.
> 
> Jun 25 - Jul 24 America's Top 100 with Locals 34.99
> Leased Receiver Fee 6.00
> ...


The Top 100 with locals is now $39.99. You have to get an RSN to get locals.
So 34.99 plus 5.98 is an overcharge of 98 cents. I would drop the home
protection plan if they are charging you for the $6.00 lease fee.

With one VIP 622 I am being charged the following for AT100 without locals.

America's Top 100 29.99
Leased Receiver Fee 6.00
DishHD 20.00
DISH Network DVR Service Fee 5.98

total 61.97

I have my VIP 622 plugged into a phone line. If you only have one phone line in
your house, you can buy a splitter jack from Radio Shack that plugs into where
your phone line plugs into the wall jack. You can plug both your regular phone
and your VIP 622 into this splitter jack. Just get a 25 foot phone extension cord or
whatever lengh you need, to run from your 622 to the jack. The 622 is contacted
by Dish every night about 3:00AM to check if your phone line is connected. So
having the phone line on your main phone will not cause any problems. Many
people do not understand this and Dish does not explain it.

If you do not have a phone line in your house and only use your cell phone,
you will have to pay $5 per month.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hound said:


> The Top 100 with locals is now $39.99. You have to get an RSN to get locals.


That remains incorrect. You do not have to subscribe to AT100+ to get locals.
You can get $29.99 AT100 and add locals for a total of $34.99.
RSNs are NOT required to get locals!


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

TBoneit said:


> No to both, I don't like making someone rich nor did I fail math in school.
> 
> 1. Who would go to the trouble and work to start a business if they didn't hope to make it big.
> 2. I went back to school after many years between graduating high school and going back to continue my education. I graduated in 1998 with honors. All the different math courses I passed with an A. I remember 1 english course with a B that dragged my GPA down or I'd have been 4.0 GPA at graduation.
> ...


Sorry that you have such a thin skin, but programming choice is number one
in selecting a multivideo provider. So if the Voom programming is important to
you, then you should stay with Dish, unless you live in Cablevision's territory.
Then you should look at Cablevision, if Cablevision has all the channels that you
require, and you are using their cable modem.

My number one reason to switch to Verizon was programming. Verizon provides
me with three RSNs in HD that Dish does not provide in either HD or SD to me.
I originally signed up with Dish because I was an out of market sports fan who
could not get any Philadelphia professional sports programming. Dish provided
me with Philadelphia professional sports programming through MLB EI,
NBA League Pass and NHL Center Ice. But after my first year with NBA League
Pass, Dish stopped providing the HD version. Then Dish stopped providing 
MLB EI this year. So I live in a baseball hotbed, but Dish cannot provide me
with any professional baseball at all, except what was on FOX that I get in
crystal clear OTA HD, ESPN HD and ESPN 2 HD which Verizon also provides and cable provides and Dish gave me SD local baseball broadcasts that I picked up
OTA in crystal clear HD. Now Verizon was providing the sports content that
I used to get SD from Dish by subbing to league packages, in stunning HD for
less money. So it was a no brainer to go to Verizon.

Regarding price, Dish is the most expensive HD provider in Central NJ. That is
a fact that only Dish can change by lowering prices!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I paid Dish $137 a month plus I had to keep Patriot Media for $73 a month so that I could get two HD RSNs and INHD (which provided three HD baseball games a week last year). I also had Patriot Media for Internet which was $48 a month for 7/1 cable modem.

With Verizon, I am paying $101 a month for TV, $40 a month for 20/5 Internet
and $30 a month for telephone with unlimited long distance. Plus I signed
up for Patriot Media limited cable with two HD set top boxes for $29 a month,
so that I can continue to sub to MLB EI. Also Patriot Media limited cable provides
all Princeton University and Rutgers mens and womens basketball which I watch,
and when Comcast takes over Patriot later this year, I will get CN8 which
provides Philadelphia Big Five basketball. I am sure that Comcast will continue
Princeton and Rutgers basketball. Limited basic cable also will allow me
to sign up for NBA League Pass and get NBA TV in HD. Cable MLB EI has the
MLB HD channel which has more HD games per week than I got last season
with INHD and Dish MLB EI combined.

So now I am paying $130 a month for two TV providers (Verizon and basic
cable) $40 a month for 20/5 Internet which is far superior to cable Internet
and $30 a month for telephone. Total $200 a month.

I used to pay $210 a month for just TV and I did not get all the programming
that was available, and I wanted, in Central NJ. So my old total cost was
$210 for TV, $48 for cable modem and about $48 for phone or $306 total.
So I am saving over $100 a month and have the programming that I want.

Regarding the copper wiring, I would not worry about it. If you start worrying
about stuff like that, you will start worrying about the sky falling in. Verizon
provides a back up battery to keep your phone lines working in case their is
a power failure and you probably have a cell phone.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> That remains incorrect. You do not have to subscribe to AT100+ to get locals.
> You can get $29.99 AT100 and add locals for a total of $34.99.
> RSNs are NOT required to get locals!


When I downgraded from AEP to 100, the DISH CSR told me that locals
for $5.99 cannot be added to Dish 100 anymore. This is the current offer:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/whats_on_dish/programming_packages/at_100plus/packages.aspx

Please note that the current offer says the following:
AMERICA'S TOP 100 PLUS (WITH LOCALS)


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Try the Dish Builder ... pick AT100 and add locals for $5. I your CSR said that they were wrong ... Locals CAN be added to AT100 for only $5 (the $5.99 price only applies to people without an AT or qualifying minimum package).


----------



## Mike Kennedy (May 28, 2006)

Unfortunately, living in the country, my choices are only Direct TV or Dish - maybe someday - more choices. Realistically, I don't have a feel, even from this thread whether i am being overcharged by Dish for the same service. I must admit I am curious but I struggle to see a good apples to apples comparison.

I pay monthly:
$57.99 for top 250 and locals
$5.98 for hd DVR service fee
$6.00 for leased receiver fee
$20.00 for HD
$5.99 for warranty on all equipment
$95.96 total

I have a 622 HD DVR for HT and a 211 HD receiver for office; payed nothing for them.

Out of curiosity, what would be the same breakdown for Direct TV and various cable systems. If others are paying half or less than what I am paying for the same service, then I would like to know. I have struggled on this thread to make a good comparison.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> Try the Dish Builder ... pick AT100 and add locals for $5. I your CSR said that they were wrong ... Locals CAN be added to AT100 for only $5 (the $5.99 price only applies to people without an AT or qualifying minimum package).


Well the Dish builder gives me AT100 plus locals at 34.99 without an RSN. I downgraded from AEP to AT100 in March. As I recall with the February price increase, the $34.99 option for AT100 with locals and no RSN disappeared from the Dish web site, and the only options were 29.99 or 39.99. The Dish CSR confirmed that to me in March. So they must have changed back to the 34.99 option. The 34.99 option makes Dish more attractive to subs who
do not want to pay for an RSN. With expanded basic cable, you are required to
have an RSN. I do not believe D has a similar option, without an RSN. So this is a nice niche that Dish can fill for the non RSN subs.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Mike Kennedy said:


> Unfortunately, living in the country, my choices are only Direct TV or Dish - maybe someday - more choices. Realistically, I don't have a feel, even from this thread whether i am being overcharged by Dish for the same service. I must admit I am curious but I struggle to see a good apples to apples comparison.
> 
> I pay monthly:
> $57.99 for top 250 and locals
> ...


A similar package with Verizon would be:

$42.99 Fios Premier (includes Versus)
7.99 Sports to get Golf, Tennis, GOL, etc. channels
12.99 HD DVR
9.99 HD set top box
$73.96 Total

The Verizon package includes all HD channels and HD RSNs.
You can add the movie package for $8 a month or movies
and HBO for $15 a month or movies, HBO and Cinemax
for $25 a month. The movie package includes
Starz, Sho, TMC and about 60 SD channels. 
The Verizon package is before any triple play bundle
discount which would knock $11 off the TV price, $10
off you Internet and $18 off your phone bill.

Verizon triple play would be
$73.96
- 11.00 discount
40.00 20/5 internet
30.00 phone
132.96 total

A comparable package with my local cable company,
Patriot Media is:

$74.70 Digital Freedom Plus (which includes Digital Movies)
6.95 HD set top box
6.95 DVR set top box
6.95 DVR fee
9.95 HD fee
$105.50 Total
Without Digital Movies, the cost is $103.50

This is before bundle discount for Internet and Phone.
Their Digital Freedom Plus Triple play with Internet and Phone
is $158.70 which includes in the $74.70 one set top box. So your
set up with cable triple play would be
$158.70
6.95 DVR set top box 
6.95 DVR fee
9.95 HD fee
$182.55 for triple play

Because of Verizon, Patriot Media is offering additional $30 to 50
discounts off the $182.55 for one or two year commitments.

So just comparing television, Verizon is about $22 a month less
than Dish before bundle discount of $11 and Dish is about $8 a month
cheaper than cable before bundle discounts.

So you have to decide which service gives you the channels that
you want. Cable and Verizon have HD RSNs that some subs want.
The only thing that Dish offers not available on Verizon and Cable
is Voom.


----------



## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

shappy said:


> Am I correct that everyone is paying $20/mo for HD? I am getting ready to upgrade to a 622 and HD and I am having a bit of sticker shock at the price, especially when Comcast is charging $5/mo.
> 
> Other than network prime time shows, the only other HD programs I will really be interested in HD (assuming FX never gets their HD act together) is a program on TNT (The Closer) and one on Universal HD (BSG, for one more season).
> 
> ...


I'm not either, but thats the price.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hound said:


> Well the Dish builder gives me AT100 plus locals at 34.99 without an RSN. I downgraded from AEP to AT100 in March. As I recall with the February price increase, the $34.99 option for AT100 with locals and no RSN disappeared from the Dish web site, and the only options were 29.99 or 39.99.


I ignored the website packages, since the website is often wrong just after a change. AT60 became AT100 remaining at the $29.99 price ... the $5 locals option didn't go away. The price guarantee still lasts until 2008.

It does appear that AT100Plus requires Locals, but AT100 w/locals has not required RSNs.



> I do not believe D has a similar option, without an RSN. So this is a nice niche that Dish can fill for the non RSN subs.


D* does not have a $29.99 package, unless you count their "Family Pack". Their lowest normal tier is $49.99 for new customers ($47.99 for grandfathered customers who were paying $44.99 last year). Basically on par with AT120.


----------



## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Mike Kennedy said:


> I pay monthly:
> $57.99 for top 250 and locals
> $5.98 for hd DVR service fee
> $6.00 for leased receiver fee
> ...


The DVR fee can be reduced to $2 by switching to DVR Advantage.


----------



## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Actually you save $3.98 by switching to the dvr advantage plan. 

For example top 250 for 52.99 + locals for 5.00= $57.99 then you add to that the dvr fee of 5.98 per dvr receiver you get 63.97. 

IF you do the **dvr advantage plan for top 250 + locals you pay $59.99 for your single receiver and no dvr fee , so you save $3.98 a month over the old way.


----------



## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

The end effect being the DVR fee gets reduced to ... wait for it ... $2 for the first DVR. 

Just a different way of presenting the numbers. One way gets you 6, the other you end up with a half-dozen.


----------



## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Hound said:


> When I downgraded from AEP to 100, the DISH CSR told me that locals
> for $5.99 cannot be added to Dish 100 anymore. This is the current offer:
> 
> http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/whats_on_dish/programming_packages/at_100plus/packages.aspx
> ...


I work for a phone company where we sell Dish, i'm in the office right now looking at their current programming flyer we give to customers (and the big poster on the wall for that matter) and it says "Choose to add Local Channels to any package just $5.00/mo" The AT 100 package is currently listed at 29.99 so plus locals for 5.00 that's yes indeed $34.99 and these are the current flyers and posters that we just rec'd from Dish in June so it appears the CSR you spoke to was wrong (imagine that  ).


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

tsmacro said:


> I work for a phone company where we sell Dish, i'm in the office right now looking at their current programming flyer we give to customers (and the big poster on the wall for that matter) and it says "Choose to add Local Channels to any package just $5.00/mo" The AT 100 package is currently listed at 29.99 so plus locals for 5.00 that's yes indeed $34.99 and these are the current flyers and posters that we just rec'd from Dish in June so it appears the CSR you spoke to was wrong (imagine that  ).


It was March when I spoke to the CSR. The CSR told me the $5 was no longer
available and it was removed from the web site. There were other postings
on this board about that back then.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Just as long as we know NOW the correct prices let's move on.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Hound said:


> Sorry that you have such a thin skin, but programming choice is number one
> in selecting a multivideo provider. So if the Voom programming is important to
> you, then you should stay with Dish, unless you live in Cablevision's territory.
> Then you should look at Cablevision, if Cablevision has all the channels that you
> ...


I don't have nor do I want a cell phone. I may outside the norm these days that way, but I don't want anybody with a phone to be able to contact me every minute of the day. OTOH I do see people that don't seem to be able to do anything without a cellphone glued to their ear while they yack away..

I only have basic local and regional phone service and a phone card that never even got used last year.

As far a cablevison I did look at their packages and Verizons and DirecTVs last month (June) and they did not have what I wanted.

Thin skin, Sorry I work in a small retail computer store, and I get so tired of hearing "can you do better on that price" or the other type that comes in, asks questions about what we sell and then sidels up to the repair counter and says "I'm having x,y,z problems with my computer. What do think is wrong with it?" or the ones that come in and act like they want to buy a computer and then they want a detailed parts list of what we would build so they can go buy the parts on the internet. Another location that sells used computers too, they get customers that price is the only criteria, if a Pentium II, yup P2, is twenty or thirty dollars cheaper than a 1Ghz Pentium 3 or 1.5 Pentium 4, That is a much better computer why they'll buy the Pentium 2 since it is cheaper.

I applogize, Iwas having a hard day that day here at work. You are so right programming that isn't what you want is no bargain at any price.


----------



## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Hound, you need to contact [email protected] and get a programming credit for all this time you've been over charged.

Have a glass of ice tea and relax.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

And of course as per law of supply and demand we here in New Jersey most likely have better Television rates than many areas. 

Since all of NJ has Cable and Two satellite services available and more of the state is being wired for Fios prices are low. The main impact on prices as I see it is Cable vs Fios. Fios as the new kid on the block has been running low rates IMHO to build a customer base. THis supply and demand price lowering has been observed in towns with two cable systems too.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Jim5506 said:


> Hound, you need to contact [email protected] and get a programming credit for all this time you've been over charged.
> 
> Have a glass of ice tea and relax.


Technically, I have not been overcharged, so there is nothing to claim. I have been disappointed with the direction of E*'s HD programming. I was very disillusioned that this year's price increase to the AEP plus HD subs did not coincide with turning on all the uplinked HD RSNs and the HD NBA League
Pass and NHL Center Ice channels, and the loss of MLB EI. If E* had turned
on those channels, which would have given me MSG HD and FSNY HD as my local RSN, plus multiple NBA, NHL sports package games, and kept MLB EI, I would
have kept E* as a second service to Verizon. (Verizon does not yet provide
the league sports packages and does not provide MSG or FSNY in HD). MSG and
FSNY are owned by Cablevision, a direct competitor of Verizon, and the per sub
carriage cost of the HD channel is supposed to be high. Right now I have basic
cable with two HD boxes for $29 a month including taxes so that I can sub
to league sports packages that I used to get with E*, and the cable MLBHD
channel provides about twice as many HD games than E* provided last season
on channel 9467.

*The point of this thread is the $20 HD fee which is the highest in the industry.*

Verizon was granted a statewide franchise in NJ, and began installing video
customers in January 2007. On a percentage increase basis in 2007, Verizon
is the fastest growing multi video provider in the United States (bigger than E* on a percentage basis). In 2007, Verizon's video subscriber growth rate exceeds 50 percent per quarter. Verizon recently said that this month when 2nd quarter earnings are announced that video subs will be over 500,000. So what has happened here in NJ, is that cable was unable to raise rates in 2007 and is offering bundle, or one or two year commitment discounts off of last year's rates. Verizon's video rates are 20 to 25 percent lower than cable's 2006 rates. But in
response to Verizon, cable in NJ also significantly improved the HD channel lineups
in 2007. For example, Patriot Media added Comcast Sportsnet HD, Comcast
added MSG HD, FSNY HD, ESPN2 HD, Golf/Versus HD, TNT HD, Cablevision added
Golf/Versus HD, Voom HD, etc. Plus other HD channels are now being added,
such as NG and A&E, but this is also a response to Directv's ads.

Now in February 2007, Dish has what I consider a massive price increase for AEP with HD subs, and introduces the $20 HD fee with really no improvement in the
HD channel lineup (A&E only). Then a few HD RSNs are added later in the year.

There is a lot of discussion of E* vs D* on this board. And in parts of the US, 
subs cannot get cable or Verizon. However, Carl Vogel testified before a Senate Committee about MLB EI and he described E* as the fourth largest multi video provider in the United States (not the 2nd largest satellite company). Ten years ago, before satellite, subs only had one choice, local cable. Satellite gave subs a choice, provided more programming not availabe on cable and lowered prices. However, 10 years ago, the penetration of subs connected to the Internet was much smaller and cable modems did not exist. The multivideo provider HD market is very competitive today for many reasons. Its my opinion that the $20 HD fee is too high in today's competitive HD market, and the only way that I can express that to E* is to leave when my 18 month 622 commitment is up next month (not by emailing [email protected]). I remain interested to see the comparison of E*s
HD fee in 2008 vs D*'s current $10 fee after all of the new HD programming
becomes available later in the year and what HD channels both offer. However, it is very unlikely that I would go back to either satellite provider in 2008, because
I am getting the HD programming that I want.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hound said:


> *The point of this thread is the $20 HD fee which is the highest in the industry.*


Yet for that $20 you are getting more unique channels of HD than competing services. Everyone has upconverts ... even sourced HD material where the content on HBO HD is the same as HBO SD except the resolution. With E* you get MORE than just the HD version of content you already get. You get more HD only content.

E* set a price point ... many are willing to pay it. This "highest in the industry" crap is silly when you are dismissing all you get for your money.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> Yet for that $20 you are getting more unique channels of HD than competing services. Everyone has upconverts ... even sourced HD material where the content on HBO HD is the same as HBO SD except the resolution. With E* you get MORE than just the HD version of content you already get. You get more HD only content.
> 
> E* set a price point ... many are willing to pay it. This "highest in the industry" crap is silly when you are dismissing all you get for your money.


The highest HD fee in the industry is not silly. It is a fact.
As you say some subs, are willing to pay the highest in the industry $20
for what Dish offers. There are subs perfectly happy with E*. 
E* has its own niches, that some segments of the market are looking for
like AT100 with locals but no RSN, Family tier, Voom, etc. Also E* does provide
the RSN or RSNs in many markets and is now providing some in HD.

A number of subs have questioned the $20. It is not smart to pay $20 for
content you are not going to watch, no matter what you are getting for your
money. Its the same as paying $5 extra for an RSN that you do not watch.

My last post was long, but to summarize it:

1. Cable rates went down in NJ in 2007 and HD offerings improved significantly. In 2007, Dish significantly increased rates and did not significantly improve HD offerings.

2. Both DBS companies over the past 10 years had significant growth at the
expense of cable (because cable competition did not exist), lowered prices and provided programming not previously available to cable subs. With the introduction of cable competition and the Internet, DBS no longer has the advantage that it once had.

As I have said in previous posts, E* has its own audience. D* has its own
audience with Sunday Ticket, MLB EI, Setanta, etc. Cable in Central NJ has its own
audience with PBS HD, YES HD, SNY HD, CSN Philadelphia HD, etc. When Comcast announced the purchase of Patriot Media in April, Comcast said that Patriot Media subs pay twice the national average monthly for TV. When E* annnounced 2006
earnings in January, the monthly fee from subs was about $62 a month. D*
announced the monthly fee froms subs was about $72 to $74 a month, or about
$10 to $12 a month more than E*. I believe favorite content is the number factor one influencing subs in choosing a provider. If content is equal, then subs look
at price. Limited basic cable at $15 a month with pass through of broadcast
HD channels is still the cheapest pay TV option.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hound said:


> The highest HD fee in the industry is not silly.


Reusing that phrase over and over is silly as it diminishes all one gets for their $20. HD upgrade of SD channels PLUS additional content.


> 1. Cable rates went down in NJ in 2007 and HD offerings improved significantly. In 2007, Dish significantly increased rates and did not significantly improve HD offerings.


The majority of Americans do not live in NJ. Congrats on your atypical lower rates.

Significant is a matter of opinion. In 2006 E* offered five HD channels for $9.99 and after Voom's collapse offered ten more added on for $5.00. Five for $9.99 or fifteen for $14.99. (Plus HBO and Show HD if one subscribes to the premium packages and PPV HD and other special content.)

In 2007 E* raised that to $20.00 and ADDED more channels. Now in 2008 E* has a package of 27 (12 regular HD and 15 Voom HD - not counting the four premium movie channels and PPV). The "significant increase" in price was $5.01 -- yet they added seven more regular channels as well as the five Vooms.

Ignoring the Vooms ... $9.99 for five channels is now $20 for twelve channels. "Double" the price but you get more than double the channels. Plus, you do get the 15 oft despised Voom channels that no other US carrier has today.


> 2. Both DBS companies over the past 10 years had significant growth at the expense of cable (because cable competition did not exist), lowered prices and provided programming not previously available to cable subs. With the introduction of cable competition and the Internet, DBS no longer has the advantage that it once had.


Cable is playing catch up. DBS still has it's place. I'm not in NJ so cable is still much more expensive than the satellite providers - with less offerings.


> Limited basic cable at $15 a month with pass through of broadcast HD channels is still the cheapest pay TV option.


Almost as cheap as the alternative. Making a one time payment of buying one's own antenna and tuner and avoiding monthly fees altogether.


----------



## Mike Kennedy (May 28, 2006)

Actually, what is silly is the price of gasoline.

Personally, I don't understand the tirade against the cost of HD programming at E* or rationale. Living in the country, I am used to paying more for stuff: water, service, deliveries. Companies can price as they want to; I can choose to buy or not buy; that's the American way.

Until Lightning fried my C-Band system, I had the best SD programming in the world: low costs, high quality, ala carte menu. Nothing came close to comparing - probably still doesn't - even in NJ. At that time, I appreciated that I could buy just HD from dish for $15 per month. D* made me sign up for SD also to get HD. In reality, I don't mind the $20 for HD. From my C-Band background, SD is what is high. Regardless, I buy it. 

If and when I get other options, I will weigh them and decide accordingly. As a consumer, we always have three options that makes sense: buy the product; don't buy the product; or negotiate for a better deal. Anything other than that would seem to be a waste of time.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> Significant is a matter of opinion. In 2006 E* offered five HD channels for $9.99 and after Voom's collapse offered ten more added on for $5.00. Five for $9.99 or fifteen for $14.99. (Plus HBO and Show HD if one subscribes to the premium packages and PPV HD and other special content.)
> 
> In 2007 E* raised that to $20.00 and ADDED more channels. Now in 2008 E* has a package of 27 (12 regular HD and 15 Voom HD - not counting the four premium movie channels and PPV). The "significant increase" in price was $5.01 -- yet they added seven more regular channels as well as the five Vooms.
> 
> Ignoring the Vooms ... $9.99 for five channels is now $20 for twelve channels. "Double" the price but you get more than double the channels. Plus, you do get the 15 oft despised Voom channels that no other US carrier has today.Cable is playing catch up. DBS still has it's place. I'm not in NJ so cable is still much more expensive than the satellite providers - with less offerings.Almost as cheap as the alternative. Making a one time payment of buying one's own antenna and tuner and avoiding monthly fees altogether.


In Feb 2007, Dish raised AEP (no locals) with HD from $100 to $110. 10 percent in one year is significant and much higher than the rate of inflation. The numbers do 
not lie. I do not know of an HD fee that is higher than $10, and I do not know of any multivideo provider that raised rates 10 percent in one year. The guy who
started this thread says that Comcast's HD fee was $5 and that seems to be
correct. I checked the Comcast web site. The Comcast HD fee is $5 if you sub
to a $59 digital package in NJ. $20 is still the highest. I just looked at D*s website. D*'s premier package with locals and their sports pack is $90 plus $10 for HD = $100 versus E*s AEP for 90 plus $5 locals $20 HD and $6 sports pack = $121. Is that correct?

Basic cable for $15 with HD pass through provides more programming not available with a tuner and antenna. Basic cable is 42 channels on our system
including local college sports such as Men's and Women's college basketball
from Princeton and Rutgers, all public access channels including the local
school system, local high school sports, CSPAN, CSPAN2, a number of
shopping channels. Basic cable also gives you the right to sub to premium
channels such as HBO, Starz, Sho, League sports packages, MLB EI or any PPV
or a la carte channel including HD. OTA antennas do not provide that.

Cable competition is new. Verizon is in about 12 states and cable rates have fallen
locally in those areas. New Jersey is lucky that Verizon was granted a statewide
franchise. Verizon provides me with just as many HD channels (36) as Dish
was providing for zero HD fee.

DBS still has its place, but the mystique of DBS is gone, when a
sub has to go back to cable to get national sports programming such as MLB EI.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

As James' math will attest... with Dish the cost-per-HD-channel has actually gone down!

1 for $7.99
5 for $9.99
15 for $14.99
27+ for $20.00

Yes the price has increased with time, but Dish has added channels faster than the amount of increases... so per-channel price has dropped. Why no one else has noticed this is beyond me.

I also see we still have a few sore folks who are mad that Dish stopped the extra discount where they were getting the $20 pack for $15 when the rest of us were paying $20 from the beginning of the new packages. Instead of thanking Dish for their temporary price break that the rest of Dish customers didn't enjoy... they choose to complain after-the-fact. Not a single person at that AEP level came here and thanked Dish for the added discount they received for almost a year... but they were quick to complain when the special treatment they received was ended.

Ultimately the truth is obvious... Think you pay too much? Drop the HD or go somewhere else and put your money where your mouth is.


----------



## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

Hound after reading this whole thread I have come to a major decision. I hate you. You live in an area that has much more choice than 90% of the country and it seems like you just want to rub it in our faces. You have the choice of 2 cable co's, 2 sat co's, & Fios. That is just to lucky. In the area where I live I have the choice of 1 cable co which has a total of 16 HD channels including premium. 2 sat co's and that's it. So I will have to stay w/ the only carrier that gives me a good quality and good choice. Now when my commitment is ended if D* has gotten it together w/ the new MPEG 4 set up. I will consider them in comparison to E* but have the sinking feeling that they will continue w/ the lightest version of HD available. So if you would kindly just start being a little nicer to us under privileged masses


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hound said:


> In Feb 2007, Dish raised AEP (no locals) with HD from $100 to $110. 10 percent in one year is significant and much higher than the rate of inflation. The numbers do not lie.


But those that abuse them often do. AEP w/o HD increased $5 on it's own and the $5 _DISCOUNT_ that E* had been giving (charging AEP subscribers less than everyone else) ended. (Do you think it was fair to charge everyone $20 for HD except AEP subscribers?)

Comcast here is a couple of channels plus locals I can get OTA. They better not be charging more than a couple of bucks for their service! If they offer more in other markets GREAT. At least E* is consistent. 30 odd channels for everyone before locals.


HDMe said:


> Ultimately the truth is obvious... Think you pay too much? Drop the HD or go somewhere else and put your money where your mouth is.


Too simple. Besides, as long as they complain and there are people defending E*'s choices they have something to do.

I'd rather be watching HD.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

HDMe said:


> As James' math will attest... with Dish the cost-per-HD-channel has actually gone down!
> 
> 1 for $7.99
> 5 for $9.99
> ...


That is the point. The $20 to everyone else from the start was too high.
I am not going to debate that Dish gives you more per channel or the quality
or look at what Dish is giving you. That is not the issue. Its just the simple fact that the $20 is the highest in the industry.

I will be dropping the HD at the end of my 18 month commitment next month.
I already deactivated my owned 622 and will return my leased 622 in August.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

whatchel1 said:


> Hound after reading this whole thread I have come to a major decision. I hate you. You live in an area that has much more choice than 90% of the country and it seems like you just want to rub it in our faces. You have the choice of 2 cable co's, 2 sat co's, & Fios. That is just to lucky. In the area where I live I have the choice of 1 cable co which has a total of 16 HD channels including premium. 2 sat co's and that's it. So I will have to stay w/ the only carrier that gives me a good quality and good choice. Now when my commitment is ended if D* has gotten it together w/ the new MPEG 4 set up. I will consider them in comparison to E* but have the sinking feeling that they will continue w/ the lightest version of HD available. So if you would kindly just start being a little nicer to us under privileged masses


Sorry, I am not making fun of other subs. I am just stating the facts. Cable competition is new in 2007. Cable competition is not everywhere. When I first signed up with Dish in 2003, I did not have an HD set, Dish was less than cable and Dish offered more programming options than cable. However, this is no
longer true. DBS has to adjust to cable competition. It is not visible to me how E* has adjusted in 2007 to cable competition. Both D* and E*
have one price and one program lineup for 48 or 50 states. In my situation,
because of 2007 cable competition, DBS is not as attractive as it was in 2003 or 2004 when I bought my first HD set. D* is trying to sell its self as the HD sports
niche, and I considered signing up with D* for MLB EI. But basic cable is a better
deal than D* for MLB EI, HD programming on MLB EI, and the other sports
packages that I used to subscribe to on E*. DBS has had a good run and there
still is a place for DBS, but DBS needs to adjust.


----------



## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

This is ridiculous - what in the world is the point of all this whining? If you don't like the price go somewhere else - the sooner the better. Oh, and while you are at it, cut off your nose to spite your face by getting rid of the 622s.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> But those that abuse them often do. AEP w/o HD increased $5 on it's own and the $5 _DISCOUNT_ that E* had been giving (charging AEP subscribers less than everyone else) ended. (Do you think it was fair to charge everyone $20 for HD except AEP subscribers?)
> 
> Comcast here is a couple of channels plus locals I can get OTA. They better not be charging more than a couple of bucks for their service! If they offer more in other markets GREAT. At least E* is consistent. 30 odd channels for everyone before locals.Too simple. Besides, as long as they complain and there are people defending E*'s choices they have something to do.
> 
> I'd rather be watching HD.


I am going to watch HD today as well. We have debated this to death.

I think it was a mistake to charge everyone $20 for HD. It was a miscalculation
by E* management to cover the costs of the Voom programming and
acquisition of that satellite. E*s HD rate is too high!! It is the highest in the industry. And that cannot be denied.

Debating the merits of the programming, quality of the channels, or whether the $20 is worth it, is another issue which could be debated forever.

Both E* and D* are consistent over 48 or 50 states. Cable varies by locality.
Comcast generally provides CN8, which on the east coast translates into
local high school and college sporting events not available anywhere else.

Basic cable for $15 is the best HD bargain out there. Neither E* or D* can
match it. Basic cable allows a sub to get all the a la carte premium channels in HD
or all of the HD sports package programming. This is an FCC requirement,
and does not vary by location. Neither E* or D* has a $15 total HD package.


----------



## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Hound said:


> I am going to watch HD today as well.
> 
> Both E* and D* are consistent over 48 or 50 states. Cable varies by locality.


Yeah we get it already, in your little corner of the world you found something that you consider a better deal for the programming you watch. Good for you, Now shut up and watch yer tv already!!!


----------



## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

Hound said:


> I will be dropping the HD at the end of my 18 month commitment next month.
> I already deactivated my owned 622 and will return my leased 622 in August.


Great idea! I hate to see anyone have to stick around with something they don't prefer. I hope your new system works well for you. Bye! :hi:

Me, I just added HD to my Dish a few weeks ago. The wife loves the Kung Fu channel, the son loves the animation channel, and I like the music and obscure old shows (UFO? May we have Space 1999 too, please?) But everybody likes (and wants to pay for) different things, which is as it should be.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hound said:


> I am going to watch HD today as well. We have debated this to death.


Good, because it seems that most of your debate was repeating a punchline!

Nobody else charges $20 for HD? Nobody else delivers the channels we get for $20 on E*. Anyone who is coming close on _count_ is showing duplicate _content_ - either multiple locals or east/west feeds or part-time channels to pad the count. Not that locals, west feeds and part time channels are not cool ...


----------



## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

Hound said:


> I am going to watch HD today as well. We have debated this to death.
> 
> I think it was a mistake to charge everyone $20 for HD. It was a miscalculation
> by E* management to cover the costs of the Voom programming and
> ...


How can you get HD with basic cable? Around here you must have the digital tier just to get HBO, which is $80. Comcast serves the entire SF Bay Area & most of northern Ca.


----------



## allargon (May 3, 2007)

Paul Secic said:


> How can you get HD with basic cable? Around here you must have the digital tier just to get HBO, which is $80. Comcast serves the entire SF Bay Area & most of northern Ca.


He's probably talking about QAM. Here in Austin, TWC transmits the HD locals in the clear. All the rest require a cable card or digital tier box. I find that argument funny. I can get the digital locals INCLUDING the ones TW doesn't provide like the CW, Univision and our local PBS substations for FREE via rabbit ears! :lol:

I really like 5 of the Voom channels. (Rave, Equator, Ultra, News, Rush) I only consider Gameplay to be err...not my thing.

If Direct TV offered just as much content at the same or better resolution (1280x1080 is too close to 1280x720), and/or if my cable co provided as much content and weren't so arrogant about service, I'd probably leave Dish. To me, they are the best thing for me. That's the beautiful thing about choice. It's individual. I'm rubbing my hands together waiting for U-verse to hit my neighborhood.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Paul Secic said:


> How can you get HD with basic cable? Around here you must have the digital tier just to get HBO, which is $80. Comcast serves the entire SF Bay Area & most of northern Ca.


The cable companies are required to pass through local broadcast HD channels
which can be read by a QAM tuner. All the new HDTVs have QAM tuners.

You do not have to have digital tier to get HBO. That is against the FCC rules,
unless HBO is included with the digital tier subscription. Any premium or a la carte channel whether HD or SD must be provided with basic cable for $15. However, the cable company can require an HD set top box which in NJ costs $6.95. So in NJ, I get basic cable with 42 channels for $14.80 plus $6.95 for an HD set top
box which gives me the ability to sub to HBO HD if I pay for the HBO premium
monthly sub rate. It also allows me to sub to MLB EI and all MLB HD programming for the $159 cost of MLB EI. The cable companies do not advertise that HD
programming is available with basic cable.

Check this out:

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cablerates.html

Yes, the basic broadcast channels are available OTA for free, but reception and
the type of antenna needed varies where you live. Not all subs want an antenna.
Where I live an indoor antenna does not work. Rooftop antennas are required.
I am on the fringe of Phila and NY. NY or Phila PBS HD cannot be picked up OTA in my area with rooftop. However, OTA reception will improve in 2/09 when the VHF channels go digital and the signal is much stronger.

The point is neither D* or E* offers an HD option that costs $15 a month.

I explored D* for MLB EI and D*'s monthly price for a basic HD package plus the low number of HD baseball games compared to MLB HD on cable, sent me back to cable.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Hound is lucky to get so many channels on Basic. Basic cable for me is cheap enough. But going beyond locals in SD & HD so I only count them as once. Going beyond that it is mostly the useless News12 (only on cable channel) that repeats every 1/2 hour. Shopping channels, now there is a bargain. an other fluff.

Lucky me my TV can decode the HD locals off of cable. But then I have to watch live, Yuck! No 30 second skip, no replay, no slo-mo? Yuck again! Or I can pay them more rental for a HD DVR than the basic service costs, as well as pay rental if I want a remote for it.

Fios? Looks promising for the future if they get the channels I want in HD.
I watch 4 or 5 of the Voom channels regularly. 

From a video forum: "The playback VCR's at the networks all play back 1440x1080i or 1280x720p (ABC, ESPN and FOX). "


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

TBoneit said:


> Hound is lucky to get so many channels on Basic. Basic cable for me is cheap enough. But going beyond locals in SD & HD so I only count them as once. Going beyond that it is mostly the useless News12 (only on cable channel) that repeats every 1/2 hour. Shopping channels, now there is a bargain. an other fluff.
> 
> Lucky me my TV can decode the HD locals off of cable. But then I have to watch live, Yuck! No 30 second skip, no replay, no slo-mo? Yuck again! Or I can pay them more rental for a HD DVR than the basic service costs, as well as pay rental if I want a remote for it.
> 
> ...


TBoneit, I agree that most of the basic cable channels are not useful to 
many subs.

The point I am making is that basic cable for $15 allows a sub to also
get HD premium programming such as MLB EI or HBO and only pay $15 a month
for the basic package. When I downgraded from AEP in March, Dish told me
the cheapest package that I can get with HD is $30 a month (no locals) plus the $20 HD fee.

I actually know people who only sub to basic cable. There are some people who
are happy watching ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CW, MY and PBS? Outside of sports,
those seven channels are most of my television viewing as well.

Regarding a DVR, your point is well taken. It is my understanding that Comcast
does not permit an HD DVR unless you sub to a digital tier, which is allowed under
the FCC rules.

Patriot Media allows basic cable subs to get the HD DVR. One solution for basic cable subs is to buy an HD DVR (people used to buy VCRs). I own two Sony HD DVRs that work with cable card or get the basic broadcast cable HD channels with a QAM tuner.

The FCC just implemented new rules starting July 1, that cable subs must be able to buy a cable box from a third party that works with cable cards.

Whether a sub wants a DVR is an important part of the equation in choosing
an HD provider. But not all subs require an HD DVR.


----------



## archer75 (Oct 13, 2006)

I was just looking at the programming cost of HD on Dish's site to add it to my bill(well I already have it and am paying $20 but just wanted to see) and the price is now showing $9.99


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

archer75 said:


> I was just looking at the programming cost of HD on Dish's site to add it to my bill(well I already have it and am paying $20 but just wanted to see) and the price is now showing $9.99


Dish now has a free HD promotion with all of its base packages for 10 months
including AEP!!!!


----------



## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

Hound said:


> TBoneit, I agree that most of the basic cable channels are not useful to
> many subs.
> 
> The point I am making is that basic cable for $15 allows a sub to also
> ...


On Comcast with an analog set you must have extended + digital cable to get premiums. Cost: $112 with Digital box DVR for "one" TV.


----------



## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Hound said:


> The cable companies are required to pass through local broadcast HD channels
> which can be read by a QAM tuner. All the new HDTVs have QAM tuners.
> 
> You do not have to have digital tier to get HBO. That is against the FCC rules,
> ...


Unless I missed something their is no requirement for any tv to have a QAM tuner. There were a bunch of rules for defining a TV as digital cable ready. Nor are cable companies required to use digital signals at all, although if they do they are required to carry the locals in qam.


----------



## An-Echo-Star (Jan 8, 2007)

FYI
E* will announce shortly the addition of 10-12 HD channels, with 2 rolling out Wednesday and the majority rolling out 8/15. Stay tuned!


----------



## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

An-Echo-Star said:


> FYI
> E* will announce shortly the addition of 10-12 HD channels, with 2 rolling out Wednesday and the majority rolling out 8/15. Stay tuned!


Where did you hear about this? Any idea which channels?


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Paul Secic said:


> On Comcast with an analog set you must have extended + digital cable to get premiums. Cost: $112 with Digital box DVR for "one" TV.


That is not correct under the FCC rules.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

tnsprin said:


> Unless I missed something their is no requirement for any tv to have a QAM tuner. There were a bunch of rules for defining a TV as digital cable ready. Nor are cable companies required to use digital signals at all, although if they do they are required to carry the locals in qam.


There is no requirement for QAM, but most or all new HD sets have QAM.
There is no requirement for cable companies to use digital signals, but if
a cable company provides local broadcast in HD, the cable company has to
use digital signals. And in 2/09, there will only be digital signals.


----------



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Paul Secic said:


> On Comcast with an analog set you must have extended + digital cable to get premiums. Cost: $112 with Digital box DVR for "one" TV.


In SF, Comcast basic cable is $17.99, digital starter is 53.50, HD is 7.00. I do not
understand the $112. The FCC requires Comcast to provide all premiums (not
tiers) to any basic cable sub.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cablerates.html


----------



## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

An-Echo-Star said:


> E* will announce shortly the addition of 10-12 HD channels, with 2 rolling out Wednesday and the majority rolling out 8/15. Stay tuned!


Press release came out today.8 RSNs tomorrow.

Also on Aug. 15, DISH Network will add seven national HD channels to its DishHD programming package, including MHD, featuring music programming from MTV, VH1 and CMT; Golf/Versus HD; Animal Planet HD; The Science Channel HD; TLC HD; Discovery HD, and History HD, which will debut on Sept. 1. With these additions -- plus more planned for mid-September -- DishHD subscribers will continue to have access to the largest national HD lineup in the United States.​


----------



## An-Echo-Star (Jan 8, 2007)

BobaBird said:


> Press release came out today.8 RSNs tomorrow.
> 
> Also on Aug. 15, DISH Network will add seven national HD channels to its DishHD programming package, including MHD, featuring music programming from MTV, VH1 and CMT; Golf/Versus HD; Animal Planet HD; The Science Channel HD; TLC HD; Discovery HD, and History HD, which will debut on Sept. 1. With these additions -- plus more planned for mid-September -- DishHD subscribers will continue to have access to the largest national HD lineup in the United States.​


I got my channels and launch dates mixed up. I think because I was still pissed one of the HD RSN's being launched wasn't NESNHD.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

tnsprin said:


> Unless I missed something their is no requirement for any tv to have a QAM tuner. There were a bunch of rules for defining a TV as digital cable ready. Nor are cable companies required to use digital signals at all, although if they do they are required to carry the locals in qam.


It i smy understanding that they can sell it with no tuner at all. They may not be able to call it a TV set however for many people that only use Cable or satellite is that a huge problem?

Moving on I'm starting to see DVD recorders that have no tuner rather than add a Digital tuner they just do not include a tuner at all.

Those will be very usefull to people that only get OTA


----------



## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

HDMe said:


> As James' math will attest... with Dish the cost-per-HD-channel has actually gone down!
> 
> 1 for $7.99
> 5 for $9.99
> ...


And now we run into the same old issue that we have with SD programming.

Channel Count

Yes the price per channel is better but if you do not watch the channels the cost is higher.

I do not want to start up the old ala-cart mess. I think we all know where we stand on this so no need to bring this up.

I still wonder what will happen once "everything" is HD. Will we still pay a $20 HD fee?

Until they change the "way" we pay for pay TV the issues will never go away.

For those who want only HD they are forced to pay for SD programming even if they do not watch it.

Want a 622 but not HD... too bad we're going to hit you with a silly fee.

Let's end this sillyness now... give me a ala-cart price for "all" channels and let me pick only the ones I want.

You want "all" the channels... good for you... you can have some form of discount.

Single channels cost $5 now? So what... I'll still save a ton of $$$ because I only want 5 of them.

-JB


----------



## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

An-Echo-Star said:


> I got my channels and launch dates mixed up.


My post wasn't intended as a criticism. More like "you made a prediction and here it is" :grin: (with slightly different details as announced).


----------



## An-Echo-Star (Jan 8, 2007)

BobaBird said:


> My post wasn't intended as a criticism. More like "you made a prediction and here it is" :grin: (with slightly different details as announced).


That's cool

Anyone have any idea what the announcements will be in mid-September? Might as well start the speculation now.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

My speculation / wish list ...

TBS, TWC (yes, even if it isn't real HD), three Starz! channels (Starz! Edge HD, Starz! Comedy HD, Starz Kids & Family HD) and perhaps TMC HD.

RSNs: CSN Chi, CSN Mid-Atlantic, CSN West (if in HD), MSG, NESN and any more FSNs that put up a part time HD feed

One thing for sure, I don't expect Lifetime HD. Not on E*. Not ever. 
(And no YES, HD or otherwise.)


----------



## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

TWC will be real HD. Around 2 or 3 wks ago they received 8 Panasonic P2 HD cameras for their new facility. P2 are card based no moving parts except focusing & shutter assemblies in lens HD cameras. They can output in SDI or component 24p or 30 frames per second 1080i. They can also output 720p as well.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

whatchel1 said:


> TWC will be real HD. Around 2 or 3 wks ago they received 8 Panasonic P2 HD cameras for their new facility. P2 are card based no moving parts except focusing & shutter assemblies in lens HD cameras. They can output in SDI or component 24p or 30 frames per second 1080i. They can also output 720p as well.


The last announcement I read from The Weather Channel was that they were building their HD studio and their "HD" feed for the first few months would be SD upconverted at the source.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

whatchel1 said:


> TWC will be real HD. Around 2 or 3 wks ago they received 8 Panasonic P2 HD cameras for their new facility. P2 are card based no moving parts except focusing & shutter assemblies in lens HD cameras. They can output in SDI or component 24p or 30 frames per second 1080i. They can also output 720p as well.


Someone needs to tell the President of TWC if they are going live before 2008. She's telling everyone that D* is going to be upconverting the SD version independent of TWC.

I say fie on James' idea of doing the same for E*. If it isn't HD, don't carry it as such.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Although I agree in principle the idea of the "masses" seeing a channel on one provider and not another annoys people. Not that people will jump to D* for TWC HD ...

It will be interesting how E* will handle TWC-HD and the new TWC application. Will they write a version that works with the HD feed? The SD feed version seems to be slow enough in coming.


----------



## Goonhilly (Jul 14, 2007)

I currently watch only the HD channels on Dish 6000 (not MPEG 4 capable).
HD Pack $9.99, Voom $5.00 and access fee $6.99. Total $21.98 + tax.

Dish is offering a free receiver with an 18 month contract. 
HD Pack $20, SD family pack $19.99. Total $39.99 + tax. I get $10 off for 10 months.

Here's my question.
The CSR suggested that alternately, I can forgo the free receiver, buy a VIP 211 at retail, and change receivers on my account. The CSR said if I did this, I would pay HD Pack $20 + Access fee $6.99, and not have to get the family pack. The CSR said she would only know for sure if this was OK once I called to change receivers on the account.

Does anyone know if pricing is correct?


----------



## mhowie (Sep 30, 2006)

James Long said:


> Although I agree in principle the idea of the "masses" seeing a channel on one provider and not another annoys people. Not that people will jump to D* for TWC HD ...


I don't know... Stephanie Abrams in hi-def? I'll jump!


----------



## dclaryjr (Mar 11, 2007)

mhowie said:


> I don't know... Stephanie Abrams in hi-def? I'll jump!


Especially on the beach in the rain sans jacket!! :grin:


----------



## mhowie (Sep 30, 2006)

dclaryjr said:


> Especially on the beach in the rain sans jacket!! :grin:


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Ok guys, stay on topic. Let's talk DBS!


----------



## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

booger said:


> Some of the Voom channels are movies that have been upgraded to 1080i. But for me, Rave and Universal HD look fantastic. If you want quality, E* is it, not cable. There is no way in hell that cable picture quality will trump E* or D* for that matter.
> 
> 25 HD channels for $5.00. It's got to be a special that will end in a matter of months. I could be wrong but nothing you've stated makes any sense.


I disagree, I am a E* (Former D* and Former Comcast and Former TW..I know I know make up my mind) subscriber but HD content over cable has and will likely always trump Satellite in picture quality especially with all the compression and HD-Lite...and of course OTA is fantastic...

Next on the list (if it ever gets here) FiOS.


----------



## killzone (Dec 27, 2006)

TBoneit said:


> And being in Central NJ I too have a choice of Fios, Dishnetwork, DirecTV or Cablevision.
> 
> I'm staying with Dishnetwork Everything Pak and HD. What Else, Oh yes Basic cable and cable modem service. Verizon DSL is gone once I notify everybody of my new e-mail addresses. I looked at the Fios and Cablevision pricing and wasn't impressed. YMMV


Why weren't you impressed with Fios pricing? In my area on Long Island NY, they offer TV+phone+15Mbps internet for under $100. Thats about what I'm paying now for just Dish.

The only thing keeping me from switching is the lackluster DVR available for Fios or Cablevision. $20 for an HD package seems quite a bit steep. It's included in whatever package you get from both Cablevision and Verizon.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

One reason is I don't want Fios Phone or Cable phone. And those prices are promo prices that are pretty much guarenteed to go up down the road. I want phone service that will stay up no matter how long my power may go out. Yes, I have had it out for days. Phone still worked too.

Prices didn't look so good once I started adding up the extras. Multiple DVRs, 30Mb Internet, mine runs over 20Mbps most of the time and is usually >24Mbps. 

Then the channels I watch are not all there. Basic cable gets me all the local HD channels as well as a backup source of TV.

Not to mention the fact that I do not want to hear all the moaning, groaning and flat out complaints about having to learn new equipment and new channel layouts. I heard enough about it back when dish reshuffled their channel layouts years ago and there wasn't any new equipment to learn. I got complaints when the 501 died and I replaced it with a 721. Now they love the dual tuner and more space however the noise at first.....


----------

