# What is the $5 DVR fee really for?



## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Some of you are paying $5 a month for a DVR fee. *Does anyone really know what this fee is for?*

Does it go to Eldon or somebody other than dishnetwork to pay for the technology or license?

Is it extra profit for dishnetwork for allowing the DVR to record through guide feature?

Do you have to pay this fee and what would happen if you declined? For example could you still create manual timers?


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

They won't activate the unit if you don't agree to pay the fee, i.e. it's considered part of the basic fee for the unit and is not optional. Hence, you can't have a 921 without this "feature", even if you specifically request such.

As far as I know, the fee is simply for additional profit. At a future point in time, Dish may have to cough some of this money up to various copyright holders, though, so they may be hedging their bets.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Personally this fee is waived in my case. But it was never really explained as to what it provides. There are some DVRs that don't have this charge while others do so copyrights issues never came to mind as all these unit can not transfer the digital data directly to outside media. 
I thought it might be a TIVO (like) charge that pays someone for the technology or a use license of some kind.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

One of the executives at E* explained it this way. They felt since D* customers had to pay the TIVO service license fee to use TIVO technology, E* could do the same, competitively. Since they do not use TIVO's technology the service fee is simply added to E* gross profit. The fee is waived if you buy enough E* programming packages. Their published waived fee policy is currently based on having the AEP programming package. Sub to AEP and you don't have to pay the DVR fee for the 921.

I recently dropped my AEP and had to agree to now pay that fee, which is 4.98 plus a $5.00 fee for account management without a base E* package. 

My reason to drop base programming and keep HDTV package and VOOM is because I just got tired of feeding the incompetent pig*. 

*The "pig" reference is something E* marketing came up with 2 years ago when they tried to insult anyone who subscribbed to D* or cable as being a "pig feeder" due to suspected cable and D* price gouging and lots of extra charges. In reality, I feel it is E* who is guilty of this more than the ones they accused. So, today, I refer to them as a "pig" and me as a "pig feeder" as long as I am a customer of E*.


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## invaliduser88 (Apr 23, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> *The "pig" reference is something E* marketing came up with 2 years ago when they tried to insult anyone who subscribbed to D* or cable as being a "pig feeder" due to suspected cable and D* price gouging and lots of extra charges. In reality, I feel it is E* who is guilty of this more than the ones they accused. So, today, I refer to them as a "pig" and me as a "pig feeder" as long as I am a customer of E*.


The next thing you know, they'll rename the Charlie Chat to the Charlie Oink! :grin:


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

For a long time Dish DVRs (501, 508, & 721) did not have a DVR fee. The orig Dish Player did (it was a partnership with Microsoft), but was often waived due to bugs. When the 510 came out, Dish started the DVR fees. It was $10/mo for AT50, $5/mo for AT100 & AT150, and free for AEP. 

They cited the reason for initiating a DVR fee as "they were leaving money on the table" by not charging the fee. They later dropped the $10/mo fee down to $5/mo for the lower tiers. So basically, you don't get anything for the DVR fee as much as they know that you'll just pay for it. With over a million DVRs deployed, I'm sure that this was a very smart decision on Dish's part. 

Since there options to have a DVR without this fee (get an old 501/508,721 or 7200 or a replay or Tivo SA), I won't say that this is screwing anyone, since you elect to pay this fee.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

> *The "pig" reference is something E* marketing came up with 2 years ago when they tried to insult anyone who subscribbed to D* or cable as being a "pig feeder" due to suspected cable and D* price gouging and lots of extra charges.


Minor correction: The "Pig" ads are aimed strictly at cable, NOT D*! "Stop feeding The *CABLE* Pig". {We should find a PIG smilie}


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## lpickup (Jul 12, 2005)

Cyclone said:


> ...They cited the reason for initiating a DVR fee as "they were leaving money on the table" by not charging the fee...


On a chat, Charlie defended the fee by comparing the Dish fee to that charged by TiVo, saying that it was still much less than what TiVo charges.

I have four problems with this argument:

First: They used to heavily market the fact that Dish Network charged NO fees for their DVR functions--they seemed to have abandonded this position

Second: The TiVo fee at least in part goes towards providing guide data, something that E* already provides to their subscribers as part of their programming subscriptions (okay, plz don't continue the debate about OTA guide data here)

Third: Bugs aside, the E* solution lacks critical functionality when compared to the TiVo offering including (at least on the 921 and on all receivers until recently) name based recording, season pass, recommendations, and even though I've never personally used it, I'm sure they have better conflict resolution, interface, etc.

Fourth: And finally, the bugs. There is just no way I can see a justification for charging any money when timers are not firing correctly, events are not being recorded, or even lost. Simply unacceptable.

...Lance


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## mwsmith2 (Nov 15, 2004)

lpickup said:


> On a chat, Charlie defended the fee by comparing the Dish fee to that charged by TiVo, saying that it was still much less than what TiVo charges.
> 
> I have four problems with this argument:


Amen, brother! His argument would hold up if they provided TiVo-like functionality for the $5, which THEY DON'T.

As usual, my avatar holds true again! :grin:

Michael


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

What is it for? Nothing, but that's been argued pretty thoroughly in the current PVR Charges are Illegal and Wrong thread. No need to get into all that here too, I'll just say that I agree with Cyclone (except where is the fee-less HD-DVR option?) and Lance.

What should it be for?
- OTA guide data (sorry Lance). They are charging for use of DVR features that require no additional support from their end. One of those DVR features is the ability to create a timer from the EPG. That can't be done without a schedule or at least hourly blocks. The 942 adds the NBR feature (not service) which the DVR fee supposedly covers. The receiver can't perform NBR without names. In either case, allowing the receiver to reveal the OTA guide info for all viewable channels would be something of actual value they could provide. Those who subscribe to locals would not need to pay again for their guide info.
- More detailed guide info. Having more days is nice but some more description and longer list of cast members would be nicer.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

They're simply charging this fee because their compeditors charge fees.

Slightly off topic is the dual receiver charge if you don't connect phone line to the 322, 522, 625, 942. Unfair because they know it's only one unit and it only has one receiver and smart card number therefore they can't independently enable/disable one of the tuners. Besides they don't charge extra even if you select dual user mode so why threaten to charge if the unit is not phone monitored.


Back to the 921 DVR fee versus features.
As "lpickup" stated in his four top reasons, let me expand on this. 

1) Asking for more because their compeditors do. (childish reason).

2) Guide already provided with normal subscription therefore DVR fee adds nothing. Nine day guide is nice but not in itself not justifiable for added cost it simply stores guide to drive rather than populating RAM.

3) Tivo features like: live pause, FF, Rev, Slow-Mo, timeshift, record thru guide are old technology. The DVR fee should be used to expand the technology. How about video on demand, program edit capability, defrag drive, insert title, expansion drives options or upgrades, dish pod option for 921.

4) For 921 they should give us a rebate for lack of support. Example no open TV, NBR abandoned, PSIP guide info?, USB / firewire ports never enabled, DVD writer slot provided but option abandoned, and poor response on all the known bug issues.


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## lpickup (Jul 12, 2005)

BobaBird said:


> ...
> What should it be for?
> - OTA guide data (sorry Lance)...


I guess I'll have to apologize to myself too! Although, this discussion is a different take on it of course! If OTA guide data is truly an expense on the E* side and the cost should be passed along to users, then I think it ought to be a separate fee (nominal though). Otherwise you have the situation you have today where 921 owners pay the fee, but non-DVR HDTV receiver users don't. That doesn't seem fair to me (especially since I don't have any OTA locals myself!)

Not to re-hash old arguments, but in my opinion, you should always have a choice between these two options:

1) Pay a price for the receiver that is a fair market value for the receiver plus the hard drive plus a one time license fee for the DVR software (similar to how most software is purchased these days)

OR

2) Pay a price for the receiver that is equivalent to a non-DVR capable receiver and pay a periodic (monthly) fee for use of DVR features (and they damn well better work!) with sliding scales based on whether it's single/dual tuner and the max amount of programming that can be stored.

Unfortunately E* is not really offering this choice (for HDTV anyway) and is hanging out in the lucrative middle ground leaving customers on either side of the choice feeling dissatisified.

...Lance


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Anybody here loose all their recordings due to the "ZSR of Death"? If your 921 was replaced, did they give you a credit for the DVR fee for the months of lost recordings?

I wrote to the "CEO" about this as well as the OTA guide data issue - it fell on deaf ears.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

lpickup said:


> Otherwise you have the situation you have today where 921 owners pay the fee, but non-DVR HDTV receiver users don't. That doesn't seem fair to me (especially since I don't have any OTA locals myself!)


I wasn't even thinking of that and clearly it isn't fair. I withdraw the suggestion since with the 811 Dish has demonstrated they don't need to charge for OTA guide info.

So why is it that people who paid $999, $549, or $699 for a receiver, plus DVR fees, are made to pay even more for info that is provided at no charge to a receiver that cost ~$400 or could be had as a no-cost lease upgrade?


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## lpickup (Jul 12, 2005)

BobaBird said:


> ...So why is it that people who paid $999, $549, or $699 for a receiver, plus DVR fees, are made to pay even more for info that is provided at no charge to a receiver that cost ~$400 or could be had as a no-cost lease upgrade?


Bingo!

By the way, I'm certainly not advocating Dish to start charging guide data as a separate (and optional) fee. I'm already quite sick of being nickel and dimed by monthly fees for just about everything these days. Business-wise I think the guide data should be a loss leader and simply provided. At the very least, the simplified data provided as part of the PSIP (sorry, I'm not familiar with this technology, so I apologize if I'm misusing the term!) should be passed through, and if that's not technically possible then E* should offer their guide data as a replacement until such time as it becomes possible (if ever). As far as I know (I haven't subscribed to cable for over 10 years now!) that's how the competition does it.

I REALLY liked the comment someone had about the guide data being subsidized by the broadcasters themselves (and not just because I think broadcasters are evil--sorry if I have offended, but you haven't had to deal with my local broadcasters! I'm sure outside of my DMA broadcasters are very nice people. ) After all, it is basically a form of advertisement for their programs. If they want to attract me as a viewer to watch their programs, they should provide me with a descriptive, searchable, convenient way to view their schedule.

...Lance


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

> At the very least, the simplified data provided as part of the PSIP (sorry, I'm not familiar with this technology, so I apologize if I'm misusing the term!) should be passed through, and if that's not technically possible then E* should offer their guide data as a replacement until such time as it becomes possible


 You are not misusing the term PSIP. PSIP is used today by the 921 to identify and "map" the OTA digital channels. There is additional data sent by most broadcasters that would populate our EPG's, however that data is reported to be minimal, as opposed to the 9-day EPG available on the satellite. That data, if available OTA, should be provided!

Another issue is what to do about the channels we can receive that are not being carried by E* LIL service. Many PAX (soon to be "I") affilliates, TBN, Daystar and others have not been included in LIL due to deals E* made with these broadcasters to carry the "national" network feed in lieu of the many local stations that carry those networks (Ironically, Univision is both carried as a national network and as one of the Cleveland LIL's). PSIP EPG data would come in handy for getting guide data for these channels.

Maybe we should send this link to E* (and Eldon): http://www.psip.org/psip_reasons.html


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

I suspect that if DIRECTV were to suddenly release their new DVRs with "no fees" Dish would follow suit with their new DVRs. But, if DIRECTV continues to charge a fee when they go with their NDS boxes, I suspect Dish will be more than happy to continue to charge the fee.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Mike- First of all the DirecTV DVR fee is not that. It is a TIVO charge for using the licensed TIVO technology on DirecTV. You will pay this fee if you buy an OTA/cable TIVO unit too and it is much more expensive than what D* passes along. I know, I have one that my father uses and I pay the bill! Additionally, DirecTV has told me last January that when they begin to offer their own made DVR's they will not have the TIVO fee since it will not be using the TIVO licensed system. Will it have a D* DVR fee. They said not as they have no such plans to do what their competition does. I assume they meant E*. Of course we all know how things change and how D* and E* make promisses they don't keep so we are on our own. You want it you pay the price.

MichaelP- Good post but to assist you further The specific ruling went into effect on February 1, 2005. This is when the FCC made it mandatory the locals transmit a populated EIT for 12 hours according to the PSIP EIT standard. The FCC also stated that while there is no mandatory requirement for manufacturers to implement the new standard, they strongly suggest they comply. If they don't under a voluntary request they will "revisit the current voluntary policy" was their exact wording.

There are plenty of documentation on the EIT standard.

Again, I remind everyone that PSIP EIT is no substitute for the TMS service E* is currently charging you for. It is a much cut down version and would be accurate only to the extent EACH station implements it. There is some concern that the current regulation on PSIP EIT is way too vague and leaves too much to voluntary standards. i.e. 12 hours 5 days, 16 days(which is the maximum data it can send at one time) Do you include program title, ratings, content details like DD5.1 HDTV etc, or how about subject description? Much of this is sent via TMS now. 


Anyway, none of this still changes my opinion that if the FCC has stated it's policy, then E* should make it available and leave the decision to have the cut down version for free or pay for a premiun service. I don't like it that E* is thumbing their nose at the FCC's request to comply in the interest of making a tiny bit of money from 921 users who don't need to buy their LIL service. 

I have talked to E* people and know where their head is at on this. They absolutely do believe they can extract these fees from you all just through these tactics and believe that they do not have to comply with the standard unless the FCC forces it on them. Many local broadcasters take the same attitude you know.


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## ntexasdude (Jan 23, 2005)

Thanks Don for another highly useful and well informed post.  Ypur post has shed light on some of my questions.


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## ClaudeR (Dec 7, 2003)

Doesn't D* charge per ACCOUNT while E* charges PER BOX? oink.

BTW, will they charge $5 for no phone line on 921? Thinking about getting Vonage...


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## lpickup (Jul 12, 2005)

ClaudeR said:


> ...BTW, will they charge $5 for no phone line on 921? Thinking about getting Vonage...


What's your concern about Vonage? See the related thread on Vonage. My experience: 921 works fine with Vonage, except, perhaps for CallerID display which comes and goes.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=43980&highlight=vonage

...Lance


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## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

lpickup said:


> What's your concern about Vonage? See the related thread on Vonage. My experience: 921 works fine with Vonage, except, perhaps for CallerID display which comes and goes.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=43980&highlight=vonage
> 
> ...Lance


I think the point is that the satellite pig could charge for anything that it can get away with - ie. you ALREADY own the box @quite a high cost! I am a bit reluctant in posting the following, since it could give them ideas :nono2:

1. Fee for having an OTA antenna because you can now get extra "free" stations.
2. Fee for no OTA antenna because you have a connector on the box that is supposed to be used!
3. Fee for using the DVI outputs since they have extra lines of code to do that
4. Fee for using component video since you are suppposed to use DVI.
5. Fee for having a bad 921 since they might have to ship you a new one.

ANybody got any other way out suggestions?


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

Don't forget the fee for getting paper monthly billing in lieu of electronic auto pay. 

They might also drop the toll free number for Dish customer service and force us to pay long distance charges while we sit on hold.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

ClaudeR said:


> Doesn't D* charge per ACCOUNT while E* charges PER BOX? oink.
> 
> BTW, will they charge $5 for no phone line on 921? Thinking about getting Vonage...


No only receivers that have dual user mode (spliting tuners to emulate two separate receivers). Example 322, 522, 625, 942 require phone line to avoid the two receiver charge.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

The DVR fee is for DVRs with a hard drive of 100GB or more. The 501, 508, 721 aren't that big. The 921 has the 250GB HD, that is why it has the fee. I think it is ironic that it has this fee, along with the 942, because it primarily records only 25Hrs of HD programming. I don't record SD stuff on it. Seems like they should re-evaluate this fee for HD PVRs.

As for DirecTV/TiVo, that fee isn't per receiver, it is per account as far as I understand. And DirecTV dropped licensing TiVo software, and TiVo went to Comcast. We will see what D* does about those fees in the future.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

What does the size of the HD have to do whith the fee? didn't we *pay* for these DVR's. In essence they are leasing us equipment we already own!

If they wanted this fee so bad they should have offered the 921 as a DHP/DHA only receiver, as the 522 was originally.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Moved out the the 921 support forums because this question covers more than just the 921 and really is not a technical support issue.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

jsanders said:


> The DVR fee is for DVRs with a hard drive of 100GB or more. The 501, 508, 721 aren't that big.


The 721's hdd is 120GB.


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## Evil Capserian (Jul 28, 2003)

All I know is the 5 dollars isn't to fund the SETI program . Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. Because I once got kidnapped by aliens and was never told they exist.


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

My whole country was kidnapped by aliens. You get used to it after awhile. Just like the DVR fee.


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## treiher (Oct 24, 2002)

TonyB said:


> I think the point is that the satellite pig could charge for anything that it can get away with - ie. you ALREADY own the box @quite a high cost! I am a bit reluctant in posting the following, since it could give them ideas :nono2:
> 
> 1. Fee for having an OTA antenna because you can now get extra "free" stations.
> 2. Fee for no OTA antenna because you have a connector on the box that is supposed to be used!
> ...


Here's a scary one . . . Fee for receiving software upgrades? They could charge per upgrade or $5 per box which is open to receive upgrades. You buy a buggy 721 or extremely buggy 921, then have to pay extra for their valuable time spent trying to get the thing to work as was orignally promised. I can actually see them trying to pull this one off.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

It's to pay for the extra CSRs hired to field all the calls reporting the bugs in their software.


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## skidog (Dec 2, 2004)

Geronimo said:


> My whole country was kidnapped by aliens. You get used to it after awhile. Just like the DVR fee.


Good one Chief! Did ya watch Into the West? I thought it was a pretty good show. Not only was your whole country kidnapped your people were killed off because they did'nt think like or act like the aliens, in my opinion a great loss of culture and way of life!


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

I thought that it was too slow moving. But yeah the aliens pretty much did win the live production of "War of the Worlds".


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## Evil Capserian (Jul 28, 2003)

Geronimo said:


> My whole country was kidnapped by aliens. You get used to it after awhile. Just like the DVR fee.


Im so sorry Geronimo to hear that. The darn white men came with there dvrs, took away your land and forced all you people to start pausing live tv. They shall all burn in hell especially for the second part.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Geronimo said:


> I thought that it was too slow moving. But yeah the aliens pretty much did win the live production of "War of the Worlds".


Because instead of the natives' microbes wiping out the invaders, it was the other way around.


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

jsanders said:


> The DVR fee is for DVRs with a hard drive of 100GB or more. The 501, 508, 721 aren't that big. The 921 has the 250GB HD, that is why it has the fee. I think it is ironic that it has this fee, along with the 942, because it primarily records only 25Hrs of HD programming. I don't record SD stuff on it. Seems like they should re-evaluate this fee for HD PVRs.
> 
> As for DirecTV/TiVo, that fee isn't per receiver, it is per account as far as I understand. And DirecTV dropped licensing TiVo software, and TiVo went to Comcast. We will see what D* does about those fees in the future.


The 721 has a hard drive that large and has no fee

The 7100 and 7200 do not have a hard drive that large but some people paya fee and some do not.

DirecTV is still licensing tivo software and will be selling Directivos at least until 2007 and perhaps supporting them beyond that


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Based on the feedback I've received so far the $5 charge for 921/942 is:

1) *Not* going *for any license fee * paid to Tivo, Eldon or anyone else.

2) *Not* for *local or 9 day guide * feature because other units provide that at no additional cost. Also latest SW updates have confirmed DN's policy, that guide info for local requires additional subscription.

3) *Not* for the cost of the *hard drive * because the unit are completely paid for. If dish was still financing any portion of these receivers then a signed agreement would be required with customer to assume the remaining debt. That is not the case at least with any direct purchases.

4) *Not* for the *privilege of * using the *record* or pause buffer features, because that's the inherent function of the receiver and dish does not offer non recording capability option.

5) *Not for copyright concerns* because data can only be played back on existing unit.

6) *Conclusion* seems to be only to *collect additional revenue*.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Not that's there's anything wrong with that! :lol:


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

The best way to explain it is that when E* decided to give the 510 away for no upgrade fee, they charged the $5 DVR fee to enable them to recoup the investment. The 501/508/721s were basically prototype units. Technically, if you purchased your DVR outright with NO promo at all, there should not be any DVR Fee. Other than the 9 day guide instead of the 2 day guide, you aren't getting anything extra.


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## lpickup (Jul 12, 2005)

Larry, wonderful summary. I think that says it perfectly.

Now, the issue with the 921 is this: is the price that the 921 offered at considered a "promo", thereby justifying their DVR fee, or is considered "fair market value" in which case there is no justification of the fee. Certainly E* would claim the former, but since they don't give us an option to purchase one outright so we can see what they feel the fair market value of the receiver is, I'm afraid we'll never know.

I guess we need a similar HD-DVR on the market to compare with. The only one I am familiar with is the one the local cable company provides to their HD customers. It is single tuner and only has about 8 hrs of HD capacity, so already it is not apples to apples. They don't charge a dime for the receiver, but do charge a DVR fee.

...Lance


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## daleles (Jul 2, 2005)

Well the only reason I can think that the $5 fee would matter is if your receiver had a hard drive failure. From what has happened over the past few years a lot of these hard drives have crapped out. With that said Dish should replace your hard drive for free....as long as you keep paying the $5 monthly fee.

daleles


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

The hard drives have a 1 year warrenty from the manufacturer. Actually, E* could be only getting a 90 day warrenty. As for the 921, it was $1000 when it was released, and the only comparable system would be the HD D*TiVo which was also $1000 and had 1 additional OTA tuner.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

> What is the $5 DVR fee really for?


To make more profit.


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

It really is effectively just because they can. They do have the right to charge for the DVR fuctionality which they support, maintain and update. But, in the end, they are doing it because tehre is no legal impediment and because the DVR industry has had this fee for some time. 

DISH di charge fees (often waived on thre 7x00) and then made the lack of feesa selling pint with the 501 and 508. but neither DISH nor replay---the other originally feeless DVR producer gained many customers because of this. 

So DISH decided to charge on a recurring basis and to make the units themselves realtively inexpensive. It is marketing pure and simple. There is another active thread in which amny call this practice illegal. But let's face it there simply is no law against it and the practice of charging for aproduct liek thsi is not unprecedented----nor is customer resentment of the fees.


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