# Don't listen to the Lie being put forth here.. YOU WILL LOSE YOUR DISTANT NETWORKS IF



## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

Don't up grade to HD unless you want to lose your distant networks..

and don't listen to the LIE that is being spread that YOU WILL KEEP THEM.

Just upgrade.. 

that's a ton of crap  :nono2: :eek2: 


so if you get pressured to UP GRADE TO HD by some of these fools here, YOU WILL LOSE YOUR PROGRAMMING..


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Yes, I am thoroughly enjoying my HD. How very foolish of me.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

What lie are you referring too. It's been well known for sometime D* has had to tighten up DNS issues.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

This is not a lie that DTV is telling. It is an FCC regulation. 

DTV must comply with that regulation. Now, I agree that the FCC regulation wrong. After all, I am paying DTV to provide me with content. What business is it of the FCC to force DTV to deny me content merely because of geography?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

If you have HD locals available to you then you are *supposed* to lose your distant networks, by FCC regulation. If you haven't yet it's just that DirecTV hasn't caught up to you yet. That simple. You will lose them one way or another soon enough.


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## medic4jc7 (May 22, 2007)

Resource?:nono2:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Keep in mind folks, most (if not all) waivers for receiving distant network services (DNS) via DIRECTV are for analog (or SD) delivery. A key fact to keep in mind is that all analog over the air broadcasts are scheduled to end in February 2009 .. a little more than a year away.

It is likely that ALL people receiving DNS will lose access at this point in time regardless of your choices now. You may lose access now if you elect to receive your local stations in High Definition. The good news is that if you have a DVR, you can record it and watch it at a time that is convenient for you.


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

Almost makes me feel guilty for not watching much SD anymore.....NOT!


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## JDubbs413 (Sep 4, 2007)

I hope we don't lose SD locals in 2009. My HD locals have a lot of interference on them and I just watch the SD channels when they aren't coming in that well.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

JDubbs413 said:


> I hope we don't lose SD locals in 2009. My HD locals have a lot of interference on them and I just watch the SD channels when they aren't coming in that well.


In February 2009, the over the air broadcast will stop. DIRECTV will most likely down convert the HD signal that they receive and deliver it to you as normal on the SD channel. In most markets I think that DIRECTV receives the SD signal over the air .. that will not be possible in 2009.

If you are talking about receiving SD over the air, then yes, that will end in early 2009.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

That date has changed several times hasn't it?. I wouldn't hold your breath. Most of the country has no idea.


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## JDubbs413 (Sep 4, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> In February 2009, the over the air broadcast will stop. DIRECTV will most likely down convert the HD signal that they receive and deliver it to you as normal on the SD channel. In most markets I think that DIRECTV receives the SD signal over the air .. that will not be possible in 2009.
> 
> If you are talking about receiving SD over the air, then yes, that will end in early 2009.


Oh okay thanks. No I recieve it via the dish. I am just in a bad area with a lot of interference for the HD locals.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> That date has changed several times hasn't it?. I wouldn't hold your breath. Most of the country has no idea.


This one seems to be sticking. Even DIRECTV and DISH are trying to get this one delayed, but so far no budging. I expect it to happen this time.

So, bottom line, "YOU WILL LOSE YOUR DISTANT NETWORKS" is very likely a true statement for almost everyone who has them - the issue is more about when and how.


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

and if you think the 2009 date is set in stone, in blood, you have another thing coming.. that date means NOTHING.. because a ton of the small stations don't want to spend the money to upgrade.. My Local CBS is STILL BROADCAST IN MONO.. that's the truth. another station has "simulated" stereo meaning not true stereo.. Yes these out of the main loop stations are still in the 1950's for broadcasting.. and I am not kidding. 


But my big problem is with POSTERS ON THIS FORUM, trying to convince SD viewers here to switch to HD, so that THEY get more programming.. and telling others that YOU WILL NOT LOSE YOUR DISTANT NETWORKS.. just to be more convincing.


and I really like those who have already posted here who backhandedly want to promote this lie or play it down.. way to go dirtbags.. 

Its all about Me and I could care less what YOU LOSE.. 

what a great attitude..


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Keep in mind folks, most (if not all) waivers for receiving distant network services (DNS) via DIRECTV are for analog (or SD) delivery. A key fact to keep in mind is that all analog over the air broadcasts are scheduled to end in February 2009 .. a little more than a year away.
> 
> It is likely that ALL people receiving DNS will lose access at this point in time regardless of your choices now. You may lose access now if you elect to receive your local stations in High Definition. The good news is that if you have a DVR, you can record it and watch it at a time that is convenient for you.


why don't you point out how many of the posters on this forum are having PROBLEMS with their DVR right now.. and how many shows DID NOT RECORD THIS WEEK..

why not explain the complete story here? :eek2:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bjlc said:


> why don't you point out how many of the posters on this forum are having PROBLEMS with their DVR right now.. and how many shows DID NOT RECORD THIS WEEK..
> 
> why not explain the complete story here? :eek2:


Let's not get carried away. If you want to watch live TV .. great. DNS and DVRs are unrelated. I was pointing out that a DVR could help you to time shift. Since all my stuff worked perfectly this past week, it's kinda hard for me to say that there are widespread problems. Some folks had a some issues and one or two had a catastrophe, but again .. one or two is not widespread .. the vast majority worked very well.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bjlc said:


> and I really like those who have already posted here who backhandedly want to promote this lie or play it down.. way to go dirtbags..


Let's also try to keep the name calling to a minimum.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

bjlc said:


> But my big problem is with POSTERS ON THIS FORUM, trying to convince SD viewers here to switch to HD, so that THEY get more programming.. and telling others that YOU WILL NOT LOSE YOUR DISTANT NETWORKS.. just to be more convincing.
> 
> and I really like those who have already posted here who backhandedly want to promote this lie or play it down.. way to go dirtbags..
> 
> ...


You're taking this a little personal aren't you. I'm sorry you feel this way. I don't know if other members are purposely being misleading or not, but a few possible rogue posters isn't going to make a differene in any agenda they may have.


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## Smuuth (Oct 4, 2005)

There is a misunderstanding of what will happen in February of 2009 regarding over the air (OTA) broadcasting and it is being perpetuated here. Let me try to clear it up some.

In February of 2009, ALL *analog* broadcasting of OTA TV will cease. That means that ALL OTA stations that continue to broadcast over the air signals will have to switch to *digital* broadcast signals.

This does NOT mean all OTA will magically become High Definition. Much of what is broadcast will continue to be Standard Definition, but will be broadcast digitally.

All high definition is digital, but not all digital is necessarily high definition.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

bjlc said:


> and if you think the 2009 date is set in stone, in blood, you have another thing coming.. that date means NOTHING.. because a ton of the small stations don't want to spend the money to upgrade.. My Local CBS is STILL BROADCAST IN MONO.. that's the truth. another station has "simulated" stereo meaning not true stereo.. Yes these out of the main loop stations are still in the 1950's for broadcasting.. and I am not kidding.
> 
> But my big problem is with POSTERS ON THIS FORUM, trying to convince SD viewers here to switch to HD, so that THEY get more programming.. and telling others that YOU WILL NOT LOSE YOUR DISTANT NETWORKS.. just to be more convincing.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it is more constructive to simply correct people that have incorrect information regarding this issue and kindly tell them that what they are saying is not the case. I severely doubt any poster here has been saying that you won't lose your DNS unless they thought that was indeed correct. Just flat out calling them liars because they themselves have been misinformed along the way seems a bit harsh.


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## Lundy Love (Feb 22, 2007)

whether or not you get HD or not

The Law is the Law, and its the FCC not DirecTV

Personally, I don't like the law, but I live with it

And another thing, I don't get my locals via satelite anyway, unless it is in SD

I have to put up an antenna

Talk about an incovienence.......

But, alas, there is nothing I can do

At least, DirecTV was good enough to put an OTA antenna on my equipment.......

Sometimes I have to fight to get them to work....... But thats life

As far as getting the distants is concerned, there is nothing I can do

I just deal with the hand that i was deal, and I deal with it......

Eventually they are going to provide Locals to everybody.......

and I can finally take that that big space antenna down......

But, at least it is better than cable who doesn't even give me the option of local HD around here....

So I just deal with it......

Having distants would be great until they provide the locals........ But its nothing DirecTV can control.....


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

OK...I already floated this on another thread in a related question, but it may get a more direct answer here...

I am in the process of upgrading my old SD service to HD and got a decent deal from the service retention dept on the HD DVR to replace one of my two old Sony recievers. If I currently have the distant networks ( I am "grandfathered" so to speak), and my locals are offered on D* but only in SD, not in HD. Will I get to keep Distants in HD if I upgrade to HD service?

Notes:
1. My zip code is 29582
2. I have an old system that couldn't pick up the locals in SD even if I wanted to.
3. I was specifically told by D* CSR that I would NOT lose the distants and would get them in HD. She actually strongly suggested that I keep them. Was I lied to?
4. I now just found out that even if I want to get my locals...I would need two dishes...not happy about that.

Thanks
Roqdawg


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## Lundy Love (Feb 22, 2007)

roqdawg said:


> OK...I already floated this on another thread in a related question, but it may get a more direct answer here...
> 
> I am in the process of upgrading my old SD service to HD and got a decent deal from the service retention dept on the HD DVR to replace one of my two old Sony recievers. If I currently have the distant networks ( I am "grandfathered" so to speak), and my locals are offered on D* but only in SD, not in HD. Will I get to keep Distants in HD if I upgrade to HD service?
> 
> ...


To be honest, I kinda doubt it since you were grandfathered

I would ask someone higher than a CSR


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## saryon (Aug 12, 2007)

Yea, and my two cents would be to specifically make sure "grandfathering" persists through service changes, in areas where they can now provide local channels. And if that answer is yes, I would get that answer in writing, on company letterhead, so they can override the system later if it barfs..


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> You're taking this a little personal aren't you. I'm sorry you feel this way. I don't know if other members are purposely being misleading or not, but a few possible rogue posters isn't going to make a differene in any agenda they may have.


This guy is still bend at D* for blacking out one of his teams in MLB EI. Over and over again he has been told its an MLB black out problem and not a D* problem and over and over again he complains. This is just an extension.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

saryon said:


> Yea, and my two cents would be to specifically make sure "grandfathering" persists through service changes, in areas where they can now provide local channels. And if that answer is yes, I would get that answer in writing, on company letterhead, so they can override the system later if it barfs..


If the FCC rules disagree with any "official" letterhead from D*, then D* has to abide by the FCC... they call all of the shots.


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## saryon (Aug 12, 2007)

PoitNarf said:


> If the FCC rules disagree with any "official" letterhead from D*, then D* has to abide by the FCC... they call all of the shots.


I tend to doubt they'll say "yes". I believe his grandfathering was done via SHVIA because he was outside of broadcast range, or had low broadcast signal in the beginning. Now that they have locals in his area, even if they are on the 72 deg sat, I doubt a service change will allow them to continue giving him distant networks. I think it's the service change which will force them to re-evaluate his service for SHVIA compliance.


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## saryon (Aug 12, 2007)

In fact, from the FCC SHVIA fact sheet:

17.	Does this mean that a grandfathered satellite subscriber will retain the distant network signals until the subscriber decides to terminate satellite service?

A:	No. The moratorium expires on December 31, 2004. After this date, satellite subscribers who were grandfathered will have to meet the criteria for "unserved" households in order to receive distant network signals. Alternatively, these subscribers may install a rooftop antenna to receive local signals over-the-air or may receive local-into-local service, if it is being offered. Also, grandfathered status only applies to subscribers who are receiving the same distant TV networks, from the same satellite company, using the same transmission technology, at the same location as they were on October 31, 1999 or when they were terminated after July 11, 1998. If grandfathered subscribers change satellite companies, *switch to a new type of satellite dish*, or move to a new address, they lose their grandfathered status and their eligibility to receive distant signals. "

As has been previously posted, it appears those getting dish upgrades and have local-in-local are now considered served households and are supposed to lose their distant networks.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Pretty cut and dry.


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

DCSholtis said:


> This guy is still bend at D* for blacking out one of his teams in MLB EI. Over and over again he has been told its an MLB black out problem and not a D* problem and over and over again he complains. This is just an extension.


One, this has NO bearing on my previous threads or posts..

BUT TWO, the way you post, YOU get HD channels.. and two you live in a major market.. Not all of us do..

and you refuse to understand just HOW BACKWARD it is in the nether lands..

like I said, the CBS is in MONO.. the NBC is in simulated stereo.. and so is ABC..

but you have to make it sound like ITS GREAT when you don't get the DISTANTS..

But around here.. its not.. We are lucky to get what we get.. and in my neck of the woods. that's limited.

plus you are on the far West Coast.. there is no west coast feed past your feed..

but if you live in various areas, You are allowed to purchase the EAST COAST FEEDS... so basically if you live on the west coast, you still can get both feeds... something that you have to fight to keep in other parts of the country..

but I like how you PLAY IT DOWN.. its like , I really don't know what I like , so I should do what you did...

why ? why should I give up something BECAUSE YOU SAY SO?

and don't play it down..

You don't live in my situation.. so don't make it sound like you do..


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

saryon said:


> In fact, from the FCC SHIVA fact sheet:


Great info, do you have a link to this that you can share?


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

bjlc said:


> plus you are on the far West Coast.. there is no west coast feed past your feed..
> 
> but if you live in various areas, You are allowed to purchase the EAST COAST FEEDS... so basically if you live on the west coast, you still can get both feeds... something that you have to fight to keep in other parts of the country....


I didn't think they allowed the purchasing of Distant Networks outside of your geography any longer.


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## saryon (Aug 12, 2007)

PoitNarf said:


> Great info, do you have a link to this that you can share?


Sure. http://www.fcc.gov/mb/shva/shviafac.doc

bjlc: Take it up with your congressman - they passed the law.


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

So in other words I'm screwed if I do and screwed if I don't.

Can't get the locals in SD without new SD receivers and a second dish, and probably a two year commitment. Also, I don't think the SD recievers have a toslink output for PCM/Dolby Digital.
Can't keep the distants if I upgrade to HD, and would still need a second dish to recieve my SD locals. The first part I was told otherwise, and the second part conveniently not mentioned...and a two year commitment as well.

??????maybe time to look at Cable TV after all these years with D*?????:nono2: 
Roqdawg


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

Lundy Love said:


> To be honest, I kinda doubt it since you were grandfathered


gosh, how can you make this statement?

don't make a statement UNLESS YOU ABSOLUTELY KNOW ITS TRUE...:nono2:


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> I didn't think they allowed the purchasing of Distant Networks outside of your geography any longer.


no sorry if you live it the LA area I know for a fact from the posters on this and other forums that you CAN buy the east coast feed.. and watch things earlier.. at least one of the networks,, I believe its NBC..

so please, don't say this either..


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## Lundy Love (Feb 22, 2007)

bjlc said:


> gosh, how can you make this statement?
> 
> don't make a statement UNLESS YOU ABSOLUTELY KNOW ITS TRUE...:nono2:


well someone just posted the link to the laws that were passed

so now I can say with certainty that if anything is changed..... you will lose them

As someone said before, take it up with your congressman not me

and don't shoot the messenger


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

bjlc said:


> no sorry if you live it the LA area I know for a fact from the posters on this and other forums that you CAN buy the east coast feed.. and watch things earlier.. at least one of the networks,, I believe its NBC..
> 
> so please, don't say this either..


I didn't "say" anything. It was more of a question. This is a discussion board. I have never had DNS or had to deal with it. I'm trying to get educated on this topic.


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

Lundy Love said:


> well someone just posted the link to the laws that were passed
> 
> so now I can say with certainty that if anything is changed..... you will lose them
> 
> ...


okay this guy takes your "advice " and loses HIS DISTANTS because of YOUR statement about " I kinda doubt it SINCE YOUR GRANDFATHERED"...

so now what do you lose? Nothing. You gave advise and if this guy took it to heart, HE'S OUT his DISTANT NETWORKS..

what would you be out? nothing.. :nono: :nono2: 

and what type of recourse would this poor fellow have? NONE.. Oh this guy told me , SINCE I WAS GRANDFATHERED..

when you make a "for sure " statement, you can cause some one some serious problems..

and that GOES FOR ME and everyone else.. We all should Know, ME INCLUDED, EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT , before we make a definitive statement.. especially if its going to cost some one some thing of value..


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## twistedT (Jan 11, 2007)

FYI: D* is actually spending some big bucks to try to get us some out of market locals.

Here is this: 
"The company lobbied Congress on Internet tax issues, and legislation designed to allow operators to retransmit local stations' signals to other markets"

From Here: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070821/directv_lobbying.html?.v=1


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

bjlc said:


> One, this has NO bearing on my previous threads or posts..
> 
> BUT TWO, the way you post, YOU get HD channels.. and two you live in a major market.. Not all of us do..
> 
> ...


I lived in a similar market (Columbus, GA DMA #128) that the 2 dominant VHF stations - ABC, and CBS are still Mono as well as the FOX and CW station. NBC and PBS are the only ones that ever went MTS stereo. That said, all of the stations jumped on the ball, with the exception of PBS (GPTV isn't HD anywhere in GA yet) and CW, and got their digital signals up to full height and power quicker than some larger markets. That market is one of the few that you cannot get the SD OR HD locals. You do have alternatives though: you can put up an antenna or get life-line cable to provide your local stations. It's doubtful you will get you local stations to upgrade their analog signals to stereo, however, since analog signals will be switched of in Feb 2009.

D10 & D11 are supposed to deliver HD locals to all 210 DMAs. Since D11 is due up next year, you DNS would go away then anyway.


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## saryon (Aug 12, 2007)

twistedT said:


> FYI: D* is actually spending some big bucks to try to get us some out of market locals.
> 
> Here is this:
> The company lobbied Congress on Internet tax issues, and legislation designed to allow operators to retransmit local stations' signals to other markets
> ...


If they are trying to give someone adjacant locals, it's only so they don't have to retransmit yet more signal than they already are, and thus reduces cost long-term....


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## Lundy Love (Feb 22, 2007)

bjlc said:


> okay this guy takes your "advice " and loses HIS DISTANTS because of YOUR statement about " I kinda doubt it SINCE YOUR GRANDFATHERED"...
> 
> so now what do you lose? Nothing. You gave advise and if this guy took it to heart, HE'S OUT his DISTANT NETWORKS..
> 
> ...


I am not giving advice

all I am saying is what would happen if he changed anything

Where did I give any advice


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## hells_bells (Jul 16, 2007)

bjlc said:


> Don't up grade to HD unless you want to lose your distant networks..
> 
> and don't listen to the LIE that is being spread that YOU WILL KEEP THEM.
> 
> ...


Hmmm..... That makes no sense. thanks for nothing.


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## twistedT (Jan 11, 2007)

saryon said:


> If they are trying to give someone adjacant locals, it's only so they don't have to retransmit yet more signal than they already are, and thus reduces cost long-term....


yup, its a start though. Better than having to use an antenna


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## twistedT (Jan 11, 2007)

D* has no choice but to comply with the FCC. Look what happened to E*, they broke the rules now NO ONE with E* can get DNS.


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

bjlc said:


> okay this guy takes your "advice " and loses HIS DISTANTS because of YOUR statement about " I kinda doubt it SINCE YOUR GRANDFATHERED"...
> 
> so now what do you lose? Nothing. You gave advise and if this guy took it to heart, HE'S OUT his DISTANT NETWORKS..
> 
> ...


Thanks for the defense bjlc!

My HD upgrade install is 2 weeks off...I will be cancelling it and keeping my current situation (unless they screw out of that as well). It's a shame that you can't seem to get straight answers from D* about the service, or specific info on an upcoming install (will they do, or charge extra, for a pole mount? etc). I moved here from the MD/DC area, and now see why so few people down here have D* service!

As for the distants....I go back a long way with D* (around 1996). I lived in 20659 and had the DNS because of the distance from DC...then moved to 20601...D* called me one day removed my DNS while I was on the phone with them! Said I was now close enough to DC and couldn't have them anymore. I never answered a phone call from D* again!
Moved to North Myrtle Beach 8 years ago...took me quite a while and several tries to get my DNS back but finally got them. Then when the locals (even though they are not really locals, they are from Florence/Columbia etc 1-2 hours away) were offered on D*, they took away my PBS feed, even though I can't recieve these so-called locals without all new equipment.
...and now I'm stuck in a situation where I can't upgrade to HD without losing DNS.

I realize none of this is actually the fault of D*, but Federal Law, but it has really soured my D* experience!
On the bright side....we are supposed to be getting FIOS here.

Roqdawg


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## Ext 721 (Feb 26, 2007)

FCC's pushing D* to have ALL locals and DAMN SOON.

when that happens, you can be sure the last vestiges of SD DNS will be removed for all non-RV accounts, and re-qualification will be required by FCC mandates.

As for "analog", the transition to digital will likely improve D*'s SD local picture quality, but it will still be SD. For the umpteenth time, digital ain't HD.

As for grandfathering....don't expect it unless you read it in the new SHRVA law. Despite what random CSRs may state, federal law trumps the "but jim in technical told me..."


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 12, 2006)

[sarcasm on] I absolutely agree - watching CBS news an hour or two earlier is definitely more fun than seeing the Super Bowl in 16:9 and 1080i... [sarcasm off]


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

jacksonm30354 said:


> D10 & D11 are supposed to deliver HD locals to all 210 DMAs. Since D11 is due up next year, you DNS would go away then anyway.


So does this mean a second dedicated dish will not be required in the areas that it is now?

Roqdawg


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## HDsnob (Jan 21, 2007)

bjlc said:


> okay this guy takes your "advice " and loses HIS DISTANTS because of YOUR statement about " I kinda doubt it SINCE YOUR GRANDFATHERED"...
> 
> so now what do you lose? Nothing. You gave advise and if this guy took it to heart, HE'S OUT his DISTANT NETWORKS..
> 
> ...


i think (although I'm not sure after reading some of these posts) we're all adults here. We gather information and draw our own conclusion as to what will be best for us....it's called personal responsability. If you take the word of one person without doing your own research then that falls on you not the guys who's advice you took. Quit blaming other people for your unhappiness and be part of the solution instead of the problem.


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

roqdawg said:


> Thanks for the defense bjlc!
> 
> My HD upgrade install is 2 weeks off...I will be cancelling it and keeping my current situation (unless they screw out of that as well). It's a shame that you can't seem to get straight answers from D* about the service, or specific info on an upcoming install (will they do, or charge extra, for a pole mount? etc). I moved here from the MD/DC area, and now see why so few people down here have D* service!
> 
> ...


see to you and to me, my distants are a valuable entity . if I lose them.. I might as well have cable..

and what I can't stand is how posters here, who don't have them, want US TO LOSE THEM or to give them up, in hopes of getting more HD programming.

and even though We may, in the long run, lose them.. why should I give them up now? I love them.. and MY WIFE REALLY LOVES THEM.. and that makes peace in my house..   

but when I read, lets force out SD programming. or Hey, you can get a deal... by just asking for.. won't that be great?...

great? for who?

when HD TVs are the price of big screen CRTs, then I'll buy one..

but don't encourage, or even blatantly lie to me, that I will keep something that I hold valuable, ( even it you don't) so that YOU get more programming..

that's just being selfish.. and it's been running rampant here all this past week..


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

BillyBob_jcv said:


> [sarcasm on] I absolutely agree - watching CBS news an hour or two earlier is definitely more fun than seeing the Super Bowl in 16:9 and 1080i... [sarcasm off]


So it may not be to you..

and I am not telling you to LOSE anything..

BUT the vast majority of us.. like 14 to ONE on DIRECTV don't have HD..

and why should I give up what I hold valuable BECAUSE YOU SAY SO , OR BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE IT?

I am not saying that D* shouldn't have new HD channels, am I?

No..

so don't deny us, or try to trick or manipulate us, to give up our style of programming just so you can get more..

and again.. where you lives makes a difference..


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

bjlc said:


> but don't encourage, or even blatantly lie to me, that I will keep something that I hold valuable, ( even it you don't) so that YOU get more programming..
> 
> that's just being selfish.. and it's been running rampant here all this past week..


I still don't get the HD <-> Distant Networks connection you keep blaming people for.

Are you saying there's some vast conspiracy of HD users to get D* to drop DNS to free up bandwith for more HD?


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

bjlc said:


> when HD TVs are the price of big screen CRTs, then I'll buy one..


I've had an HDTV for 2 years now...never seen an HD picture on it though!

As for the HD D* upgrade: Losing DNS and then finding out I need second dish to get SD locals is really what will kill the deal for me...and potentially not finding about this untill after the install and D* has laid a 2 year commitment on me is infuriating!

Roqdawg


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

roqdawg said:


> I've had an HDTV for 2 years now...never seen an HD picture on it though!
> 
> As for the HD D* upgrade: Losing DNS and then finding out I need second dish to get SD locals is really what will kill the deal for me...and potentially not finding about this untill after the install and D* has laid a 2 year commitment on me is infuriating!
> 
> Roqdawg


You're going to lose DNS, period.


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

roqdawg said:


> Then when the locals (even though they are not really locals, they are from Florence/Columbia etc 1-2 hours away) were offered on D*,
> 
> Roqdawg


Florence/Myrtle Beach IS a DMA. There is no NBC station in that Market so WIS out of Columbia is the "default" NBC station for the DMA. The Florence stations identify themselves as "Florence/Myrtle Beach" or vice versa. That's about as local as you are ever going to get  If those were the locals offered to you that is your DMA, they can't offer you channels from another DMA.

Cable/FIOS can only offer those same local stations and DNS aren't an option on cable or FIOS.

Your local phone company has to be Verizon for FIOS. Most of SC is AT&T (former BellSouth) territory which is getting U-verse not FIOS.


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

roqdawg said:


> So does this mean a second dedicated dish will not be required in the areas that it is now?
> 
> Roqdawg


IF the locals are of D10-D11...those are the 103b and 99a satellites. That said you won't know until the locals are announced what equipment is needed.

In the interim you probably would need the 2nd dish if that is were they are currently coming from.


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## saryon (Aug 12, 2007)

If the locals will come from 103b or 99a you would still need a new SD receiver just like the 72 slot because the old receivers can't address anything but the 101/110/119 slots.


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

jacksonm30354 said:


> Florence/Myrtle Beach IS a DMA. There is no NBC station in that Market so WIS out of Columbia is the "default" NBC station for the DMA. The Florence stations identify themselves as "Florence/Myrtle Beach" or vice versa. That's about as local as you are ever going to get  If those were the locals offered to you that is your DMA, they can't offer you channels from another DMA.
> 
> Cable/FIOS can only offer those same local stations and DNS aren't an option on cable or FIOS.
> 
> Your local phone company has to be Verizon for FIOS. Most of SC is AT&T (former BellSouth) territory which is getting U-verse not FIOS.


I wouldn't expect DNS on FIOS...but would expect to get my local stations in HD without 2 satellite dishes, five coax cables and a multiswitch!

TWCSC (cable) offers Myrtle Beach stations in HD. for example WBTW: http://www.scnow.com/midatlantic/scp/wbtw.html

North Myrtle Beach is getting FIOS...it is supposed to be the first (only?) place in SC with it...and my phone company IS Verizon.

Roqdawg


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

Redlinetire said:


> I still don't get the HD <-> Distant Networks connection you keep blaming people for.
> 
> Are you saying there's some vast conspiracy of HD users to get D* to drop DNS to free up bandwith for more HD?


there were two different threads, at least, this week, on this or a variation of this forum..

One of which was a "can we force a WEANING OF SD" channels.. basically saying that, because the HD clan wants more programming, they want to take it out of the SD programming..

and there was another thread,, where a poster was "encouraging" other SD D* subscribers, to "get rid of their SD programming" and won't it be great.. and you can get this deall..

and the bottom line again, was, IF WE ELIMINATE SD PROGRAMMING ON D*, then we will get more HD Programming..

and again, you can say that we are "going to lose the distants.." that may be so, but if I keep them for a year , or more, then I am in great shape for that amount of time.. who knows.. D* and DISH may combine by then.. or something else may happen..

But until I absolutely have to.. WHY SHOULD I? and not because you say so.. isn't a good reason..


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

bjlc said:


> see to you and to me, my distants are a valuable entity . if I lose them.. I might as well have cable..
> 
> and what I can't stand is how posters here, who don't have them, want US TO LOSE THEM or to give them up, in hopes of getting more HD programming.
> 
> ...


When your DMA is offered via D*, which they all will be at some point, you will lose DNS. So enjoy them while you can. Then if your local stations aren't up to par, you will have to direct you frustrations to them as they are the stations you will get if you have D* or cable.

This is all independent of the need for an HDTV. Your D* box or cable box will convert the HD signal to view on your current SDTV via S-video or composite cables.


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

jacksonm30354 said:


> When your DMA is offered via D*, which they all will be at some point, you will lose DNS.


I havn't lost mine...that is what "grandfathered" is....only question is for how long.


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## blc (Sep 30, 2007)

I have been told by the DNS Eligibility Dept. that I am eligible for the distant HD feed because of my zip code and that I could keep my sd distant feeds that I have waivers for (NBC, CBS, FOX-ABC wouldn't grant one after making the mistake of losing grandfather status). I understand the frustration of some of the posters here. I still have my original receiver from 1996 and dish. Can't get a single OTA signal and don't want to have to get a second dish and new equipment that is leased with a two year contract just to get the ABC local feed through satellite. I spent considerable time this last week researching the HD DNS issue and whether I would lose them once the local HD's were offered over satellite. Here's what I emailed to customer service:

In a very recent order, the FCC states that:
"For new local-into-local markets, subscribers receiving a distant digital signal of a network station can continue to receive that signal after a satellite carrier begins offering local-into-local digital signals in the market only if the subscriber also subscribes to the digital signal of the local station affiliated with the same network." 
In the Matter of Waiver of Digital Testing Pursuant to the Satellite Home Viewer Extension And Reauthorization Act of 2004, MB Docket No. 05-317, Order adopted July 12, 2007, at p. 3, para. 6. 


Just my two cents. I am still researching and waiting for a WRITTEN response from D*.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

jacksonm30354 said:


> This is all independent of the need for an HDTV. Your D* box or cable box will convert the HD signal to view on your current SDTV via S-video or composite cables.


And at much better quality than SD as well. HD looks much better than SD even on a non-HD television. There will never be a time where anybody is "forced" to buy a HDTV. They either can get a cable/satellite box, or a cheap converter for OTA. Either will convert a digital signal for analog for a non-HD set.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

DIRECTV has affirmed to the FCC that all 210 DMAs SD channels will be operational by year end 2008. I would not be surprised if the distants go away at that time or be reduced to one set for RV'ers instead of both east and west sets.

Cheers,
Tom


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

roqdawg said:


> I wouldn't expect DNS on FIOS...but would expect to get my local stations in HD without 2 satellite dishes, five coax cables and a multiswitch!
> 
> TWCSC (cable) offers Myrtle Beach stations in HD. for example WBTW: http://www.scnow.com/midatlantic/scp/wbtw.html
> 
> ...


Just my guess but I would say it would be atleast next year before Florence/Myrtle Beach get HD from D*. D10 and D11 are supposed to have capability of 1500 local stations and there are 210 DMAs, some smaller do not have but 1 or 2 stations and pull the others from neighboring DMAs.

There is something called the SWM, which you can search in the Cutting Edge forum if you haven't heard about it. It will allow you to essential have 1 wire into the house to support multiple recievers.

So D* is getting there, it's just taking some time.


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV has affirmed to the FCC that all 210 DMAs SD channels will be operational by year end 2008. I would not be surprised if the distants go away at that time or be reduced to one set for RV'ers instead of both east and west sets.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Didn't they commit to all DMAs with HD locals as well? I thought I had read that the 1500 capacity of D10/D11 was for HD locals which should just about cover all DMAs.

Edit: I just looked up...there are just under 1,800 stations in the US. So we'd still be 300 short, unless some of those could be exempt from must carry.


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## saryon (Aug 12, 2007)

blc: Your reference isn't in conflict with my SHVIA fact sheet reference. Yours basically says that as long as you subscribe to the locals you can keep the distant feed of the same network you had when LiL is added to your DMA. It doesn't conflict with subsequently losing those feeds when you change your dish. Subscribe to locals with same equipment, keep your distants.


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## blc (Sep 30, 2007)

It probably won't matter much to me if the HD locals end up being on a satellite that I can get a line of sight with. However, the SD locals now require for me to get a second dish and a newer receiver that tunes to single digit numbers. In any event, the second dish will have line of sight issues. So I have waged the waiver battle after my SD DNS were cut off. I was grandfathered but lost that status when we were away for extended period and were not able to send back the post card indicating that we wished to keep the grandfather status. As I have indicated, I would like to upgrade receiver and possibly program package (don't offer mine any more but still grandfathered on that package), but I intend to make sure that I get everything lined out on the networks before I make any changes and risk losing networks totally.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

blc said:


> It probably won't matter much to me if the HD locals end up being on a satellite that I can get a line of sight with. However, the SD locals now require for me to get a second dish and a newer receiver that tunes to single digit numbers. In any event, the second dish will have line of sight issues. So I have waged the waiver battle after my SD DNS were cut off. I was grandfathered but lost that status when we were away for extended period and were not able to send back the post card indicating that we wished to keep the grandfather status. As I have indicated, I would like to upgrade receiver and possibly program package (don't offer mine any more but still grandfathered on that package), but I intend to make sure that I get everything lined out on the networks before I make any changes and risk losing networks totally.


I wish you good luck. Good job on doing the homework first.

As for the second dish, I suspect that requirement will go away at some point, perhaps even this year.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jacksonm30354 said:


> Didn't they commit to all DMAs with HD locals as well? I thought I had read that the 1500 capacity of D10/D11 was for HD locals which should just about cover all DMAs.


While I believe DIRECTV intends to, the 4 satellites won't quite cover all 1,700+ affiliates. But it very well might cover all the affiliates that allow carriage, until LIN and a few other owners also allow.

Cheers,
Tom


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

blc said:


> It probably won't matter much to me if the HD locals end up being on a satellite that I can get a line of sight with. However, the SD locals now require for me to get a second dish and a newer receiver that tunes to single digit numbers. In any event, the second dish will have line of sight issues. So I have waged the waiver battle after my SD DNS were cut off. I was grandfathered but lost that status when we were away for extended period and were not able to send back the post card indicating that we wished to keep the grandfather status. As I have indicated, I would like to upgrade receiver and possibly program package (don't offer mine any more but still grandfathered on that package), but I intend to make sure that I get everything lined out on the networks before I make any changes and risk losing networks totally.


Sounds like we are in an almost identicle boat! Though I did return my postcard!

I lost PBS because they have some exclusive contract that prohibits recieving any feed from out of area if you can pick up your local PBS station on SAT. But I, like you, can't pickup this station without adding a second dish and replacing both SD recievers (and losing PCM Dolby Digital) with a 2 year commitment...so when the locals became available I lost PBS despite not answering any calls from D*!
I was not aware until today that if I upgraded to HD, I would still need the second dish, in addition to the 5-LNB dish for the privelidge of recieving these stations in SD (not offered in HD).
I'll watch your progress!

Roqdawg


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## bjlc (Aug 20, 2004)

getting waivers can be a total pain, no matter what the case is..

For my CBS WAIVERS.. I had to get a signal test.. and it took months to get one..

and then the guy who took the test, said that he had NEVER seen numbers as low as what he was reading on his meter.. -29 was what he read.. but there is a giant hill of IRON 200 yards behind my house.. 

but for months my CBS station refused and refused to give me a waiver.. why, principle.. that's why.. principle.


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## blc (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, we are in the same boat. When I saw your posts I registered and posted. There probably are not many subscribers that still have the original receivers with 11 years of life in them and still going. If I could get ABC distant in SD, I probably would not consider upgrading to HD yet. However, because Locals are not yet offered in HD for my DMA, by upgrading to HD I will be able to get ABC. I just don't want to be surprised when they role out the HD local for DMA that it be on a different satellite that has line of sight issues and my HD DNS be cut off. That FCC order gives me some hope that I will be protected if the HD locals end up being on a sat with line of sight issues.

I'll keep you informed.


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## blc (Sep 30, 2007)

ABC is refusing my waiver because the station manager says that SD locals are offered--even though I have explained to him that I have no way of actually receiving and viewing them. It is a principle issue with him also. If grant one, then would have to grant more. I understand their need to guard ad revenue, but I do not believe they have granted any waivers according to him.


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 12, 2006)

This thread is hilarious. So much passion over the desire to maintain a few local SD stations. What would you do if D* didn't offer locals via satellite at all? You choose to live in the boonies - now deal with the consequences. When did receiving a TV signal become an entitlement? Of course, this is a free country, you can always figure how to earn the millions of dollars it takes to put up your own TV station and get feeds from whoever is willing to provide them to you. Then you can tell D* to take a hike. Or, you could build yourself a 900 ft tower and stick an OTA antenna on top.

Good luck with your windmill, Don Quixote...


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## Dolly (Jan 30, 2007)

At some point I believe the Distant Networks will be taken away from everyone  And it isn't D's choice, but the Feds have spoken  :crying:


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

BillyBob_jcv said:


> This thread is hilarious. So much passion over the desire to maintain a few local SD stations. What would you do if D* didn't offer locals via satellite at all? You choose to live in the boonies - now deal with the consequences. When did receiving a TV signal become an entitlement? Of course, this is a free country, you can always figure how to earn the millions of dollars it takes to put up your own TV station and get feeds from whoever is willing to provide them to you. Then you can tell D* to take a hike. Or, you could build yourself a 900 ft tower and stick an OTA antenna on top.
> 
> Good luck with your windmill, Don Quixote...


Hilarious reading comprehension BB.
The thread is simply concerns WILL YOU LOSE YOUR DNS IF YOU UPGRADE TO HD? Not about a right to have DNS in the first place.
I don't get my locals on D*, though it would not bother me to get them there if I didn't have to add a second dish and replace my recievers.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I have been asked to make one correction in my earlier statement. There is a slight factual error in my comments, but in practice it is a technicality rather than the norm.

The issue with February 2009 OTA transmissions is that the analog broadcasts must stop. Digital broadcasts will be allowed to continue and these digital broadcasts may contain either SD or HD signals. My real point was that any waivers that have been obtained are for the Analog station frequency (or channel). A new waiver will need to be granted for the digital frequency (or channel). I can guarantee you that if DIRECTV supplies the signal for your DMA (regardless of size) that said station will not grant you a new waiver. You may not be able to pick it up over the air, but if you can pick it up via Local into Local, then that is what you will end up with once the analog signals have stopped.

My point is DO NOT think that grandfathering will save you, because it will not. The underlying details will be changed and there simply will be no one (not one single person) that will have "grandfather" status once the analog signals have stopped.

A couple of people have stated that "it won't happen." The government will not enforce the latest date. IMHO, the government will and in any event, that IS the current time frame. Until the government undoes what is already done, nothing has changed. You may want to believe that it ain't gonna happen, but don't rely on a bail out.

In any event, there will come a day when analog signals stop .. They've already started auctioning off the frequencies again. Time is running short.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> I have been asked to make one correction in my earlier statement. There is a slight factual error in my comments, but in practice it is a technicality rather than the norm.
> 
> The issue with February 2009 OTA transmissions is that the analog broadcasts must stop. Digital broadcasts will be allowed to continue and these digital broadcasts may contain either SD or HD signals. My real point was that any waivers that have been obtained are for the Analog station frequency (or channel). A new waiver will need to be granted for the digital frequency (or channel). I can guarantee you that if DIRECTV supplies the signal for your DMA (regardless of size) that said station will not grant you a new waiver. You may not be able to pick it up over the air, but if you can pick it up via Local into Local, then that is what you will end up with once the analog signals have stopped.
> 
> ...


Doug, another minor clarification. The analog waivers will most likely expire, but the digital waivers might not.

To bolster your point that February 18, 2009 will be the transition day, the FCC moved UP the date that all tuners in equipment were required to be digital by 4 monthes, IIRC. And wanted to move it up even further, but heeded the requests of the consumer electronics manufacturers on the compromise.

Cheers,
Tom


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## dcymbor (Nov 6, 2006)

I'm in the Los Angeles area. A year ago I upgraded to HD. I have CBS NBC and ABC east and west feeds in SD only. While talking to the CSR I specifically said that I want to keep the E and W feeds. He said he could save me some money by changing my package. I have total choice plus I think. I said I didn't care if it cost a few $$ more, I want to keep the DNS. He was able to add HD and keep my package the same. I get my locals in HD and OTA.

I've been with Dtv since 1995.


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## Azdeadwood (Aug 18, 2007)

Let me clarify things a bit. I live far enough away to qualify for the National feeds. For SD I get NYC & LA but I have to pay $2.25 a month for each channel. For HD I can only receive NYC HD because I live in Texas. (There is no logic to this since I live 2,000 miles from NYC and only 1,000 from LA. But it could be because I'm in Central Time zone.) Anyway I have to pay an additional $1.50 per channel for the HD feed. In 2009, the SD feed goes away and I will only have my HD feeds.) There is no way to change this. It is an FCC decision, not Directv. If you want to complain. Call the FCC.


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## Bitz69 (May 26, 2007)

jacksonm30354 said:


> When your DMA is offered via D*, which they all will be at some point, you will lose DNS. So enjoy them while you can. Then if your local stations aren't up to par, you will have to direct you frustrations to them as they are the stations you will get if you have D* or cable.
> 
> This is all independent of the need for an HDTV. Your D* box or cable box will convert the HD signal to view on your current SDTV via S-video or composite cables.


Actually when I ordered my HR20 reciever to get my locals in HD, I was told that I can keep my CBS I get out of New York, the poicture quality on my new reciever is better then that one but it's still nice to have for my HR10-250. Now I got my distant CBS by a waiver from my local CBS and I get only the HD version...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Doug, another minor clarification. The analog waivers will most likely expire, but the digital waivers might not.


Correct, Tom. Unless stations decide to make a blanket adjustment, I agree with this statement. While I don't have any actual percentages, I suspect that the Digital waivers were done in a significantly different way and as a result, no one (or nearly no one) has a digital waiver that they obtained on their own.

DIRECTV did, for instance, work out a plan where folks in SF can get the HD channels in LA. I currently have those myself. There are other cases throughout the country where this is currently true as well. But in each of these cases DIRECTV obtained blanket waivers, usually as a result of the networks owning the stations in both areas.

To be honest, I'm kinda shocked that those waivers haven't already been rescinded now that MPEG-4 is more widely available. There is probably some trigger point that I am not aware of that both DIRECTV and the networks have already agreed to and when that trigger is reached then I'll lose my access to the LA channels.

As it is, the LA channels are in MPEG-2 so I record SF anyway.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

bjlc said:


> One, this has NO bearing on my previous threads or posts..
> 
> BUT TWO, the way you post, YOU get HD channels.. and two you live in a major market.. Not all of us do..
> 
> ...


Its simple if you think that getting HD will cause YOU to lose them, dont get HD.
Like has been posted before, the distants WILL be cut off at some point, and yes that sucks for those of us without locals, but chances are they will have that problem resolved for most of the country. Lets not get bent out of shape just yet.

And by the way, I have had HD AND distants for as long as ive had D*


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Bitz69 said:


> Actually when I ordered my HR20 reciever to get my locals in HD, I was told that I can keep my CBS I get out of New York, the poicture quality on my new reciever is better then that one but it's still nice to have for my HR10-250. Now I got my distant CBS by a waiver from my local CBS and I get only the HD version...


I mistakenly replied to this post thinking it was the guy that started the thread, my apologies, and that post was deleted
But for you, its suprising since u have locals(if i read it right) that you would keep any of the distants at all. Just ask Dish what kind of mess this causes if they let you.


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## mhking (Oct 28, 2002)

Tom Robertson said:


> Doug, another minor clarification. The analog waivers will most likely expire, but the digital waivers might not.
> 
> To bolster your point that February 18, 2009 will be the transition day, the FCC moved UP the date that all tuners in equipment were required to be digital by 4 monthes, IIRC. And wanted to move it up even further, but heeded the requests of the consumer electronics manufacturers on the compromise.
> 
> ...


If memory serves (and it sounds nuts, but that is what we've been told on the local broadcast level), that date was chosen because it is post-Super Bowl, but far enough pre-March Madness that the major fallout would subside enough to handle the related ratings crunch.


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## Fuzzybear (Dec 29, 2006)

Too much confusion for me....as long as the Bears game comes on Fox 32 out of Chicago, all is good!


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

mhking said:


> If memory serves (and it sounds nuts, but that is what we've been told on the local broadcast level), that date was chosen because it is post-Super Bowl, but far enough pre-March Madness that the major fallout would subside enough to handle the related ratings crunch.


Now that was an INTELLIGENT decision -- how strange! :lol:

Maybe because I'm trying too hard to be optimistic, but I have a different perspective on this. Analog or digital 480 -- it's all a moot point. At the rate HD digital is now being accepted, I just don't think anything less than HD level (720 and 1080) is going to be a worthwhile venture for any of the networks by 2009. Those who want SD (analog or digital) can always downconvert (and those boxes with be CHEAP) so why would any broadcaster continue to provide SD when their customers will be clamoring for HD.

Remember, there's still a lot of uneducated confusion now about what is HD. With more than a year to go and more and more HD content, that confusion will go away. Come Feb 2009, we will be an HD country and any SD providers will be losing money.


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## roqdawg (Aug 29, 2006)

msmith198025 said:


> I mistakenly replied to this post thinking it was the guy that started the thread, my apologies, and that post was deleted
> But for you, its suprising since u have locals(if i read it right) that you would keep any of the distants at all. Just ask Dish what kind of mess this causes if they let you.


Just read the various threads...many people have grandfathered DNS status...doesn't mean we are old, it means we were allowed to continue recieving the stations we had waviers for.

Dish got in trouble for giving out DNS waviers to people who never should have gotten them in the first place.

About the cut-off date for all DNS....if it goes the way of the Do-Do in 2009 so be it. Why do you expect someone to give something they have now because they will lose it two years from now anyway....and by then possibly there will not be extra equipment required to recieve them. I was fully prepared to recieve my networks in SD after the HD upgrade, but someone at D* told me otherwise and neglected to mention that even if I didn't continue with the waviers, I would need extra equipment to recieve the SD locals.

I'm done with this subject...wasn't my thread anyway...just wanted an answer to a question, not a bunch of heated opinions, many of which from people who don't seam to understand what they are discussing. If I do decide to continue with the HD upgrade (Probably not) I will PM the couple other posters who have a personal interest with the results.

Peace Out


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

roqdawg said:


> About the cut-off date for all DNS....if it goes the way of the Do-Do in 2009 so be it. Why do you expect someone to give something they have now because they will lose it two years from now anyway....and by then possibly there will not be extra equipment required to recieve them.


Agreed .. If you currently have DNS and enjoy the service, you need to take responsibility yourself and make sure any changes to your account keep the key desired services. DNS is one of those services that once it is gone, will not come back to you.

My cut off comments are more geared to let people know that grandfathering will become moot when the analog OTA stops.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

richlife said:


> Now that was an INTELLIGENT decision -- how strange! :lol:
> 
> Maybe because I'm trying too hard to be optimistic, but I have a different perspective on this. Analog or digital 480 -- it's all a moot point. At the rate HD digital is now being accepted, I just don't think anything less than HD level (720 and 1080) is going to be a worthwhile venture for any of the networks by 2009. Those who want SD (analog or digital) can always downconvert (and those boxes with be CHEAP) so why would any broadcaster continue to provide SD when their customers will be clamoring for HD.
> 
> Remember, there's still a lot of uneducated confusion now about what is HD. With more than a year to go and more and more HD content, that confusion will go away. Come Feb 2009, we will be an HD country and any SD providers will be losing money.


Rich .. this is my thought as well. While SD can be transmitted over the digital path, why bother. As a station, if you've got to change equipment why not send HD.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> Doug, another minor clarification. The analog waivers will most likely expire, but the digital waivers might not.


This depends on whether or not the station changes their broadcast configuration at the time of transition. Many stations are offering a token digital broadcast that will go full power at the transition.


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## Marvin (Sep 14, 2003)

Heres my situation, I dont think I have anything to worry about but anyway.

In the Salisbury DMA theres no NBC at all and the FOX station is digital OTA subchannel of CBS and not in HD, so I get them both out of NY in HD (CW is a subchannel and not in HD, Id like to get in HD via DNS but I dont think its possible). Directv doesn't even offer SD locals here still, and I dont want them because it would cost more and I can get CBS/ABC in HD just fine OTA.

The only thing that I dont know about is when D* offers locals here, if they'll take the FOX DNS away even though the local FOX is a digital subchannel of CBS and not in HD, but maybe offer the FOX/NBC channels out of DC that are on cable and considered Signifcantly Viewed, but only if I sub to the local channels. It only costs me $3 for NBC/FOX DNS but it would cost almost double that for locals just to get the same 2 channels (or not..)


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## jlarem (Sep 23, 2007)

bjlc said:


> okay this guy takes your "advice " and loses HIS DISTANTS because of YOUR statement about " I kinda doubt it SINCE YOUR GRANDFATHERED"...
> 
> so now what do you lose? Nothing. You gave advise and if this guy took it to heart, HE'S OUT his DISTANT NETWORKS..
> 
> ...


In what world is "I kinda doubt it" advise or a definitive statement. And who in their right mind makes a decision about something so precious to them based on a few forum posts?

I see this on here a few times: "It's just TV", I'll add, "It is just an internet forum".


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

I got the NY HD stations when the O&A's were doing blanket waivers. So far, they're still on even though I upgraded to the 5LNB dish and downgraded from the HD Tivo to the HR20. They're nice to have.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

In the post [post=1175883]1175883[/post]:


richlife said:


> mhking said:
> 
> 
> > If memory serves (and it sounds nuts, but that is what we've been told on the local broadcast level), that date was chosen because it is post-Super Bowl, but far enough pre-March Madness that the major fallout would subside enough to handle the related ratings crunch.
> ...


I've heard the rumor about after SB Sunday, but never was certain. I sure am willing to buy it. 

Rich, I think the milestones were picked to appease many interests with lots of cushion time so manufacturers, SD TV owners, Congress, etc. all could feel ok with the decisions. But as you so correctly point out, reality is this year's March deadline for digital tuners made a bigger difference than expected.

That said, we still need to get the $40 OTA converter boxes in the channel as well as the $40 entitlements to each household.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

harsh said:


> This depends on whether or not the station changes their broadcast configuration at the time of transition. Many stations are offering a token digital broadcast that will go full power at the transition.


Harsh, do you think for the current digital waivers to expire, some FCC or Congressional action would be required? I don't recall any time or milestone limitations on the waivers.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

Marvin said:


> Heres my situation, I dont think I have anything to worry about but anyway.
> 
> In the Salisbury DMA theres no NBC at all and the FOX station is digital OTA subchannel of CBS and not in HD, so I get them both out of NY in HD (CW is a subchannel and not in HD, Id like to get in HD via DNS but I dont think its possible). Directv doesn't even offer SD locals here still, and I dont want them because it would cost more and I can get CBS/ABC in HD just fine OTA.
> 
> The only thing that I dont know about is when D* offers locals here, if they'll take the FOX DNS away even though the local FOX is a digital subchannel of CBS and not in HD, but maybe offer the FOX/NBC channels out of DC that are on cable and considered Signifcantly Viewed, but only if I sub to the local channels. It only costs me $3 for NBC/FOX DNS but it would cost almost double that for locals just to get the same 2 channels (or not..)


Actually, D* only charges $3 for locals, and that includes HD locals where available.


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## donshan (Jun 18, 2007)

In reviewing this thread I saw references to the Satellite Home Viewer Improvement Act (SHVIA), but did not see this FCC link below: ( and apologies if I missed it) This post is long because I wanted to discuss some misunderstandings in posts above where viewers think they should have more choice than the law allows.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/shva/

There are multiple links on this FCC page to further info .

Congress passed the governing federal law that went into effect on November 29, 1999. The FCC just administers and enforces this law, and D* must comply. There are stiff penalties to D* if they provide a local channel to customers in violation of this law. If you want to wade through the legal details the law itself is in a pdf file at :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/shva/shvia.pdf

This law was strongly affected by the National Association of Broadcasters to protect the audience size of each local network affiliate station. The objective is to force viewers to watch the affiliate in their DMA, even if it is not in HDTV. I was denied the national D* HDTV feeds for years because each of my network affiliates was on the air with SD digital versions of the HD programs, but did not broadcast their network's HD version. I just saw CBS's CSI in HD for the first time this year.

The important summary by the FCC regarding what stations they are allowed to provide viewers is this quote and note the word *"option"* that I marked in bold :



> One of the key elements of the SHVIA is that it permits satellite carriers to offer their subscribers local TV broadcast signals through* the option* of providing "local-into-local." This act also authorizes satellite carriers to provide distant or national broadcast programming to subscribers.
> 
> This law generally seeks to place satellite carriers on an equal footing with local cable television operators when it comes to the availability of broadcast programming, and thus gives consumers more and better choices in selecting a multichannel video program distributor (MVPD), such as cable or satellite service.
> 
> ...


In February, 2009 all OTA *analog (NTSC)* broadcasts must stop and each station must then broadcast on one of the two channels ( analog channel or digital channel) they are now using. Some will stay on their present digital channel, others plant to switch their digital transmissions to their old analog channel.

Nowhere in any FCC regulation or the Congressional law is providing HDTV service made mandatory. As long as the any of the approved digital format signals are provided that is sufficient. Thus many may find their local digital station is only in SD. After Feb. 2009 all of the D* LIL will have to be up-linked from the digital local feed- either SD or HD.

If your local station does not provide HD or if D* chooses not to provide your DMA with that station, you have little recourse except an OTA antenna or your cable company. D* is only required to provide one network affiliate station in each DMA, and must add other stations that request to be included and follow all the rules. Once D* is providing SD LIL to all 210 DMAs uplinked from each new local digital channel, I doubt anyone except rural subscribers in zip codes beyond the range of local digital stations will be eligible for the national HDTV network feeds for that network. Thus IMHO, D* has complete freedom to decide which HDTV stations they include in their 1500 HD channel LIL packages, and which DMAs get them so long as subscribers get SD locals from the new digital channel. Fortunately 1500 HD channels is enough to get most, if not all HD channels that are on the air by 2008.

This is complicated and subject to changes in the regulations, but my reading of these regulations is that HDTV is optional -- not a FCC requirement. If you get HDTV be happy! However with these complex rules it is almost a certainty some will not get the local HD channel they want.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

donshan said:


> Congress passed the governing federal law that went into effect on November 29, 1999. The FCC just administers and enforces this law, and D* must comply.


Sorry, but SHVIA expired in December 2004. It was replaced with SHVERA.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/policy/shvera.html

The one big change was the creation of digital waivers. But the flaw in the plan was that there was no standard for determining who was outside a Grade B signal for digital.

It also set different grandfathering rules for digital vs. analog DNS.


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## donshan (Jun 18, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> Sorry, but SHVIA expired in December 2004. It was replaced with SHVERA.
> 
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/policy/shvera.html
> 
> ...


 My bad! Thanks, I love DBSTalk.com. I learn every day! I am just brain numb from years of fighting this battle since 1999!

FCC did not link the revision on the original page, so I had missed it. sorry.

Edit: After reading the link you provide I see it pertains primarily testing of a station's digital signal which defines where the boundary( DMA/zip code) for eligibility for the D* National HD channels would be defined .This revision doesn't repeal the earlier SHVIA act I linked, only adds some changes to the signal testing section. As you say it still seems we have a very arbitrary system of defining that eligibility boundary. It still seems to me that if a viewer is designated as getting an adequate local OTA SD digital channel strength level with an antenna ( even if they can't actually receive it) , that will disqualify them from receiving the D* National channel HD version of that network.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

donshan said:


> My bad! Thanks, I love DBSTalk.com. I learn every day! I am just brain numb from years of fighting this battle since 1999!
> 
> FCC did not link the revision on the original page, so I had missed it. sorry.


Ya it can get complicated. I'm waiting to see what happens when a CW HD DNS is added. I have a local CW offered in LIL SD. However it is a low power analog, and a digital sub channel only. It's my point of view that a digital sub channel station does not warrant protection from out of market stations. They need to at least have their own independent OTA signal.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

bjlc said:


> ...and don't listen to the LIE that is being spread that YOU WILL KEEP THEM....


I have 27 local HD OTA, 15 local SD via satellite, and 5 local HD via satellite.

In addition I have 30 great National HD channels plus 640 CSNHD and dozens more coming in the weeks ahead. Add all that up and I get just one shy of... a gazillion HD channels.

Denizens of NY and LA, please do not take offense at this but many of us do not get your local channels nor really care to. We do not care who your news choppers are chasing right now. Some of us do not even root for your LA or NY teams. We root for our own teams. Gasp!

There I said it. 

BKLC, I wish you only the happiness that NY or LA programming will be able to give you.

As for me, I am happy right here in Sweet Home Chicago. (OK, in a little town 57 miles out...OK, the Bears and Cubs lost so not as happy as can be...)

And that's no lie.

- Craig


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

Please add spoiler tags to the above post.


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## N5XZS (Apr 26, 2002)

But how about for people like me to watch out of town local news!!! 

For me I live in Albuquerque, I get L.A. HD stations "Grandfarthered" and WGN-TV superstation, but we are not allowed to get Denver, Colorado Spring, El Paso and other citys stations. 

Thanks to NAB fatcats for providing a dumb copyright censorship and I think it's a shame as far IMHO!

This stupid law need to be overhauled IMHO, and you guys can do that by contacting your congress critters!

9-30-07


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

roqdawg said:


> Just read the various threads...many people have grandfathered DNS status...doesn't mean we are old, it means we were allowed to continue recieving the stations we had waviers for.
> 
> Dish got in trouble for giving out DNS waviers to people who never should have gotten them in the first place.
> 
> ...


I understand what grandfathered means in regards to this. Ive been grandfathered into a package with my other Dish service for many years.
U are correct, Dish got in trouble for allowing people that shouldnt have DNS to have it, whether they were allowed to at one point in the past is irrelevent. If locals are availabe, you arent elligable for DNS. And why should you be? You may keep them for a while, and perhaps even until the cutoff date, but you will lose them. Hey i hate it too, I love being able to get out of market games during sports seasons.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

bjlc said:


> see to you and to me, my distants are a valuable entity . if I lose them.. I might as well have cable..
> 
> and what I can't stand is how posters here, who don't have them, want US TO LOSE THEM or to give them up, in hopes of getting more HD programming.
> 
> ...


Just my two cents, from my devils advocate side....

First lets be honest, the Feb 2009 is coming and the fcc is not not going to miss this deadline. You can't sell google, apple and a few others $30+ billion worth of airspace ( which will be done next year) and then deny them the ability to use it. And we know the government wants that $30+ billion sooner rather than latter(wouldn't you?). There may be a couple of little markets that don't loose analog in 2009, but any city of size will. (yes, I'm saying that the fcc doesn't have to turn off every analog station in the country at once, because they don't have too. Unless they have completely changed the law on this, it only has to be done DMA by DMA. This was specifically put in there because of the towns out in the middle of nowhere that may not have the money to change over in time, like somewhere in Wyoming or Montana. can anyone show me where it says the entire country has to go off line at the same time?)

Anyone who thinks that getting more HD converts will help destroy SD or bring them more HD today, is, in my opinion wrong. D* is not ready to start turning off SD channels to make more room for HD. In fact they are still ADDING SD channels. They still have to keep access to all the sd channels they can to properly compete with local cable co. More importantly, loosing local sd channels definetly won't add more HD because most of the country gets there local sd channels via spotbeam, not conus. That means that the only thing that bandwidth would be good for is, local digital channels. And since we all know that is coming from the newer sats @ 99 and 103, that argument is completely mute. (As I recall, D* plans will have local digital transmission in more DMAs than SD by the end of next year.) And I don't think anyone has seen anything to say that any SD channels will be coming from the 99 and 101 sats, so I expect that any new SD channels that are local will be coming from the 101, 110, or 119 sats after all the HD is taken off of those sats and transfered to the 99 and 103 sats in mpeg 4.

D* can't really start thinking about turning off any sd feeds until all of their ( or 99%) customer have equipment that will receive HD signals.

And by the way, there are NO big screen tv's out there today that have a tuner that don't have an HD tuner in them (fcc mandate for several years now), and the prices are the same as anaolg sets were 10 years ago, if that.

For those who have DNS, I feel for you. I think it would be interesting if everyone in the country could receive every local station in the country. Unfortunately, we live in a market driven by marketing dollars, and any non O&O station today is going to be harder and harder to convince that allowing DNS feeds to your homes is acceptable. With that said, Is there any Cable co in the country that has ever allowed any DNS feeds? Is D* the only company? From a regulatory point, wouldn't that give D* an unfair competitive edge from a legal standpoint? How much longer is that going to be allowed, regardless of if its a analog or digital world? I think it started because cable had an unfair advantage over sat because of capacity, but now technology has surpassed that argument, so now the cable companys are behind the curve, so.... I won't be surprised if all DNS goes completely away within a couple of years, or gets opened up in a more blanket way for all providers, but what ever happens, I expect radicall changes soon....

In the end, everyone needs to just do research before they make any changes to their accounts if they receive any dns feeds today.


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## or270 (Feb 12, 2006)

I gained HD distant networks from LA for free when I upgrade to HD. I do not have locals available in HD yet.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> D* is not ready to start turning off SD channels to make more room for HD. In fact they are still ADDING SD channels. They still have to keep access to all the sd channels they can to properly compete with local cable co.


???

Nothing will stop D* from taking a digital HD feed and down-converting it and providing it to customers as the SD feed as they currently do.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Everyone knows that the HR-20 or the H-20 will display on a SD tv dont they? So even if D* or E* for that matter made a general switch to HD, you could still watch it, with a better image even if you decided not to upgrade your tv. A switch to HD doesnt mean you will be out of luck with tv


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## mhking (Oct 28, 2002)

I'm happy with my SD DNS for now. Realizing that the Feb. 2009 deadline is looming, I will most likely pick up Star Choice or Bell Express Vu by then, simply for the Seattle/Detroit-Boston-Buffalo locals if for nothing else. And of course, my wife will have a conniption fit.

In any event, is it illegal? By the strictest definition, yes. But am I planning on paying for the services rendered? Absolutely. There are those here who have major problems with receiving DNS, so be it. (shrug)


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## kevinwmsn (Aug 19, 2006)

I know this a little off topic, but when do you think HD DNS channels will move from mpeg2 to mpeg4? That ought to free up some bandwidth.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> ???
> 
> Nothing will stop D* from taking a digital HD feed and down-converting it and providing it to customers as the SD feed as they currently do.


Sorta true, but that still takes up the SD bandwidth.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Sorta true, but that still takes up the SD bandwidth.


Yes it does, but otherwise D* is going to have to replace the dishes and receivers of the 14M+ or so customers that don't have MPEG-4 equipment.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> Yes it does, but otherwise D* is going to have to replace the dishes and receivers of the 14M+ or so customers that don't have MPEG-4 equipment.


Agreed. I don't see the MPEG-2 (SD) versions of any of the existing channels to go away any time soon. Too much equipment is still in the wild.


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## thumperr (Feb 10, 2006)

msmith198025 said:


> Everyone knows that the HR-20 or the H-20 will display on a SD tv dont they? So even if D* or E* for that matter made a general switch to HD, you could still watch it, with a better image even if you decided not to upgrade your tv. A switch to HD doesnt mean you will be out of luck with tv


The HR20 doesn't have and coax out, so it will not work with all legacy devices.


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

thumperr said:


> The HR20 doesn't have and coax out, so it will not work with all legacy devices.


I use the component out to an adaptor that converts to coax.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

thumperr said:


> The HR20 doesn't have and coax out, so it will not work with all legacy devices.


Not sure if that is the case i would have to check, but its possible.Even so i would bet the number of TV's out there with only a coax input are few and far between. Most everything sold in the last 15 years has at least composit of not S-video. 
And if not, go to wal mart with 80 bucks and buy a new one.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Ed Campbell said:


> I use the component out to an adaptor that converts to coax.


OR do that


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

thumperr said:


> The HR20 doesn't have and coax out, so it will not work with all legacy devices.


Thumper,

HR20 does a great job outputting on coax (RG6). The picture quality is great for SD. The key is that all HR20 outputs are active at the same time. You can even have the HR20 signal distributed through-out your house. It costs about $15 to do.

This is from the HR20 FAQ:

_Can I connect more than one TV to an HR20?_
→ Connecting The HR20 to Multiple TVs

Thumper, by the way, loved you in Diamonds Are Forever.

Now back to our regularly scheduled rant...

- Craig


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> HR20 does a great job outputting on coax (RG6). The picture quality is great for SD. The key is that all HR20 outputs are active at the same time. You can even have the HR20 signal distributed through-out your house.


I am looking at my HR20 manual and it does not show an RF output.

Of course, one could use RG6 for composite, component, or S-video, but I doubt that's what you mean. So I'm confused...

One must use an external RF modulator, as far as I can see.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> IOne must use an external RF modulator, as far as I can see.


The description in the FAQ uses a modulator.


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## alwayscool (Sep 24, 2006)

bjlc said:


> One, this has NO bearing on my previous threads or posts..
> 
> BUT TWO, the way you post, YOU get HD channels.. and two you live in a major market.. Not all of us do..
> 
> ...


Move out of Bum***k Egypt.  Locals are not all that important, especially if you live in the country. I can see the headlines now... "Billy Bob ran over Sally Mae's sheep" details at 10...:eek2: :nono2:


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> I am looking at my HR20 manual and it does not show an RF output.
> 
> Of course, one could use RG6 for composite, component, or S-video, but I doubt that's what you mean. So I'm confused...
> 
> One must use an external RF modulator, as far as I can see.


Paul,

Click on that link:

→ Connecting The HR20 to Multiple TVs

It even has a diagram and sample modulator part numbers that others are using.

- Craig


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## Tebbens (Nov 10, 2004)

Do I have too many locals ?!?!
What do I lose in 2009 ?

My zip is 12540
I have a Slimline > Spaun WBS41602NF > BBCs > HR20s

Here is whats listed in the Channel Guide and Resolution my Tv shows.

2 WCBS 1080i
2 NY2 480p
4 WNBC 1080i
4 NY4 480p
5 WNYW 720p
5 NY5 480p
7 WABC 720p
7 NY7 480p

80 CBSE 1080i
81 CBSW NA
82 NBCE 1080i
83 NBCW NA
86 ABCE 720p
87 ABCW NA
88 FOXE 720p
89 FOXW NA

380 CBSE 480p
381 CBSW 480p
382 NBCE 480p
383 NBCW 480p
386 ABCE 480p
387 ABCW 480p
388 FOX 480p
389 FOXW 480p

DirecTv Account Info:

Network: CBS HD
Network: FOX HD
Network: NBC HD
Network: ABC HD
Network: CBS from NYC/LA
Network: NBC from NYC/LA
Network: ABC from NYC/LA
Network: FOX from NYC/LA
PREMIER
HD Access
DIRECTV DVR Service


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tebbens said:


> Do I have too many locals ?!?!
> What do I lose in 2009 ?
> 
> 80 CBSE 1080i
> ...


I'm not sure what the blanket digital waiver rules are between NY & LA .. Since LA is later (time wise), that may stay intact due to agreements between DIRECTV and the networks. In any event, the digital rules will certainly be different than the analog rules.

As for 381, 383, 387, and 389 above, it is very likely that those will be removed since you probably obtained waivers locally. Once the analog OTA delivery is abandoned, your waivers will be moot and you will have to look at the digital waiver rules. The other 380s may or may not be there since NY is your local DMA anyway.


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## Robert L (Dec 13, 2005)

roqdawg said:


> Thanks for the defense bjlc!
> 
> My HD upgrade install is 2 weeks off...I will be cancelling it and keeping my current situation (unless they screw out of that as well). It's a shame that you can't seem to get straight answers from D* about the service, or specific info on an upcoming install (will they do, or charge extra, for a pole mount? etc). I moved here from the MD/DC area, and now see why so few people down here have D* service!
> 
> ...


I know N. Myrtle Beach area pretty good and I assume you know that all the networks are full power in HD, even CW. They aren't hard to get with some type of antenna, plus the Wilmington market also, especially ABC, NBC & Fox from there. You would have to get NBC out of Wilmington which does make it some harder to deal with, because its in a different direction.

I've heard WIS is putting in a repeater sometime, but I don't know much else about that.

Its kind of a surprise you were ever able to get DNS there except for NBC. That area has always been listed as either grade A or B.

FIOS is available now in a lot of the NMB area, but the video won't be offered unless Verizon changes their minds. I know because I talked directly to the head guy there in Myrtle Beach awhile back. He wants the video but Verizon is going by population apparently. It appears they are ignoring all the actual hookups with all the condo's, hotel, ect which is a LOT, since its mostly a resort area. Of course they could change their minds after its finally put in everywhere in that town.

I think its impossible to know what you would lose if you go to the HR20 and new dish, because you never know what a CSR will do. I can say that I know someone that moved and kept DNS even though SD & HD locals where offered. They've done it twice actually.

Just being curious, if you did get a HD upgrade, did you lose the SD DNS?


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## funners (Aug 26, 2007)

bjlc said:


> Don't up grade to HD unless you want to lose your distant networks..
> 
> and don't listen to the LIE that is being spread that YOU WILL KEEP THEM.
> 
> ...


You will lose your DNS anyways when it's audited..... the grandfathering doesn't last forever as many think and that's beyond Directv's control.... sorry but that's just fact and law


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

I'm not thrilled that I'll lose my FOX and CBS HD DNS out of NYC next year. I really don't like the idea that the rules I've had to follow for nearly 10 years with DIRECTV now go down the drain. _If_ DIRECTV can get all my locals in HD that'll be a neat trick because TWC hasn't been able to do it yet. I don't really want to go back to being stuck watching Buffalo Bills games because that was one of the reasons I went to satellite in the first place.


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## CTJon (Feb 5, 2007)

People shouldn't forget the reason behind this rule. Your local station pays its network etc. a lot of money for the franchise and they pay for it by local advertising etc. This rule is to protect those local stations. If all the satelitte and then later cable people could bypass the local stations and broadcast the national networks then your local station would go out of business. You'd have no local news, weather and sports and other things that come locally.

One of the problems is that some of the locals are getting greedy about selling their signal to D* and others. I get all local HD from D* except the local ABC who only recently signed agreements with all the cable companies that carry it. I hear about others who are similarly being difficult.


What I'd like it for D* and company be required to carry the local stations in their digital format whatever that is. They'd only be required to broadcast one subchannel for each local. I don't know what you'd do about locals who refuse to negotiate in good faith but there are a lot brighter people than I am and even lawyers who might have ideas.

Personally I think the 2009 date will stay. There is too much money to be made by selling the spectrum's that are being vacated and too many big companies who want those.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bidger said:


> I'm not thrilled that I'll lose my FOX and CBS HD DNS out of NYC next year. I really don't like the idea that the rules I've had to follow for nearly 10 years with DIRECTV now go down the drain. _If_ DIRECTV can get all my locals in HD that'll be a neat trick because TWC hasn't been able to do it yet. I don't really want to go back to being stuck watching Buffalo Bills games because that was one of the reasons I went to satellite in the first place.


OK, it's not free, but that's where NFL ST comes in to play.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

CTJon said:


> People shouldn't forget the reason behind this rule. Your local station pays its network etc. a lot of money for the franchise and they pay for it by local advertising etc. This rule is to protect those local stations. If all the satelitte and then later cable people could bypass the local stations and broadcast the national networks then your local station would go out of business. You'd have no local news, weather and sports and other things that come locally.


Good point, but take that one step further. The networks themselves (NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox) would cease to exist because they would not have the local stations supporting them. The networks exist because of the locals.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Understood, Doug, and I've been a ST sub prior to this year. I now have a job that requires I work a good share of Sunday afternoons and evenings. I didn't mind paying for ST when I was home to watch it and see the fantastic finishes on the games. The idea of having to pay ~ $300 just to record a team that I only had to pay the additional $1.75-$2.50/mo. prior to next year is truly unappealing.

On top of that, if DIRECTV is unable to provide all the networks in HD after locals are offered to me, it will cause me to reconsider my status with them as a provider. It's nice that I now have the RSNs that matter to me, SNY and YES, available to me as full-time HD channels, even if it was after the MLB Season was over, and the NFL Network as well. But, it's the NFL games that matter most to me. If CBS- and FOX-HD depart from my channel lineup, I may have to follow suit.


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