# 2012 - 2013 NFL Discussion Thread



## JACKIEGAGA

Are you ready for football? Kick off in about 5 hours. Go Giants!

*1.* Maybe little trash talk but keep it respectful. 
*2.* As long as the thread is friendly the Mods will keep it open.


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## sigma1914

I can't wait. Things I'm looking forward to...

Luck & RGIII leading their new teams as rookies.
The Cowboys continuing to choke.
Seeing if Chicago or Detroit can dethrone the Packers in the North.


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## Scott Kocourek

Beginning of the season prediction:

Packers win the Superbowl!!!


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## JACKIEGAGA

I hope the replacement Refs do a good job. They killed the momentum of the games in pre-season.


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## Stewart Vernon

I feel sorry for the replacement refs.

They aren't even the top college refs... they are lower division or in some cases high school refs... with not a lot of experience, and zero NFL experience.

The experienced NFL refs have a tough time in some games and with some rules... these replacements don't really have a fair chance.

They would probably have needed a year just to study and get familiar with all the NFL rules... then maybe the pre-season tuneup would have prepared them for the speed of the game.

I don't know who is being most unfair (NFL refs union OR NFL itself) but this strike needs to get settled for the good of the NFL soon... someone is going to get screwed over by a ref call moreso than usual and it will become a big deal now that the games count!


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## Stewart Vernon

Spoilered for those who haven't yet watched the game tonight:



Spoiler



Dallas 24, NY Giants 17...

I had no rooting interest, but I picked the Giants. In fairness, I think if you were a true fan of either team... you were not impressed. Neither team was truly spectacular, and a play or two one way or the other and the Giants could have won through no feat of impressiveness on their part either.

In fact... I might rather be the coach of the Giants tonight and for the next week... because you can rail on your team for all the problems... Dallas, unfortunately, won so their coach is going to find it tough to get players to buy in to all their problems for the next game.

This is one of those games when both teams played bad enough that you'd rather lose and learn something than win and keep repeating the mistakes.


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## Laxguy

Scott Kocourek said:


> Beginning of the season prediction:
> 
> Packers win the Superbowl!!!


Fixed font size!

How 'bout this weekend!? They have a real team to play for their opener....:jumpingja


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## JACKIEGAGA

I thought the refs did a pretty decent job


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## Stewart Vernon

JACKIEGAGA said:


> I thought the refs did a pretty decent job


I thought the same thing... They may not have called a perfect game, but I don't remember seeing anything that I thought "hey, that was a bad/missed call"... so kudos to them under the spotlight and pressure.


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## Laxguy

Stewart Vernon said:


> I thought the same thing... They may not have called a perfect game, but I don't remember seeing anything that I thought "hey, that was a bad/missed call"... so kudos to them under the spotlight and pressure.


+1

And I've never seen a game that was perfectly reffed.....


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## sigma1914




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## Laxguy

Hah! Love it. 

Sigma is to Cowboys as Jay Leno is to NBC??

:hurah:


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## JACKIEGAGA

Stewart Vernon said:


> I thought the same thing... They may not have called a perfect game, but I don't remember seeing anything that I thought "hey, that was a bad/missed call"... so kudos to them under the spotlight and pressure.


I heard on a sports talk show today that was the best reffing crew and they will be doing the Sunday Night Game. I wonder how the rest of the games will go today?


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## sigma1914

Stewart Vernon said:


> I thought the same thing... They may not have called a perfect game, but I don't remember seeing anything that I thought "hey, that was a bad/missed call"... so kudos to them under the spotlight and pressure.


Not even the blatant holding by the defensive back on the goal line resulting in a FG?

They did good, but that was obvious.


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## JACKIEGAGA

sigma1914 said:


> Not even the blatant holding by the defensive back on the goal line resulting in a FG?
> 
> They did good, but that was obvious.


Yes it was a miss call but over all they did a decent job. My concern is in the pre seasons games it seemed liked the refs killed the pace of the game. Just by when there was a simply penalty it took them to long to spot the ball or they got the spot wrong and they had to discuss it and re spot it.


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## Stewart Vernon

sigma1914 said:


> Not even the blatant holding by the defensive back on the goal line resulting in a FG?
> 
> They did good, but that was obvious.


The thing about that call... it was a call that was obvious from the camera angle available at home on replay... but for the officials on the field who have different responsibilities and angles... the announcers readily said when that happened that while it was an obvious hold, it was less obvious in the field of play when it happened and is the kind of holding call that officials easily miss.

The point being... I have been watching football for the better part of 25 years now... and if that was the only call they missed, that was a spectacular job... we usually have far more than that to complain about with the regular officials.

Now... the fair point is that was their A-crew of replacement refs... so today might unveil more problems. It should be interesting. By the end of this weekend we will either have proof positive that the "real" refs need to be back ASAP... OR the NFL will have proven they can pick up anyone off the street and dress them to call a game.


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## Sandra

I thought the replacement refs did a pretty good job...it's not like the regular refs get everything right either!

Some confusion at the end of the Seahawks-Cardinals gave Seattle an extra timeout, but it wound up having no effect. Also, the Packers had about six 'blocks in the back' on Cobb's punt return TD, but as I said, the regular refs missed calls too.

All in all, it wasn't bad and hopefully will get better!


Sandra


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## Scott Kocourek

Hmm. I might have to rethink my season prediction, but I'm gonna give it one more game.


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## Laxguy

Scott Kocourek said:


> Hmm. I might have to rethink my season prediction, but I'm gonna give it one more game.


They'll do fine. Rogers is a fantastic QB, AND a class act.

What I disliked most in that game was a spearing by Williams on Gore in the end zone. Next was the overcalled block in the back on the 70 yd TD play.

The Bears game, Thursday, should be a great one.

We play Detroit next weekend.


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## JACKIEGAGA

Scott Kocourek said:


> Hmm. I might have to rethink my season prediction, but I'm gonna give it one more game.


I heard a statistic today 7 out 10 teams who win in week one make the playoffs.


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## JACKIEGAGA

Sandra said:


> I thought the replacement refs did a pretty good job...it's not like the regular refs get everything right either!
> 
> Some confusion at the end of the Seahawks-Cardinals gave Seattle an extra timeout, but it wound up having no effect. Also, the Packers had about six 'blocks in the back' on Cobb's punt return TD, but as I said, the regular refs missed calls too.
> 
> All in all, it wasn't bad and hopefully will get better!
> 
> Sandra


Agreed overall the Refs did a good job.


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## Laxguy

JACKIEGAGA said:


> I heard a statistic today 7 out 10 teams who win in week one make the playoffs.


Cool! So, that must mean the Niners are one of the seven, and the Pack is one of the three! ::eek2::lol:

Now, how about the Giants and Jets, too!


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## MysteryMan

Laxguy said:


> Cool! So, that must mean the Niners are one of the seven, and the Pack is one of the three! ::eek2::lol:
> 
> Now, how about the Giants and Jets, too!


49ers Vs Packers was the best of the three games I watched. I had no doubt what the outcome would be. Unless they are plagued with injuries SF will go the distance and into the playoffs. Then again my favorite team (NY Giants) are noted for slow starts and wining finishes.


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## djlong

Refs only really blew 2 calls in the Patriots/Titans game. One was a pretty blatant pass interference non-call in the end zone that turned what should have been a 1st & 10 on the 2 into what ended up as a field goal. Now, maybe it was because the receiver was cutting back - McCourty pretty much ran into him without looking at/for the ball - but that's still interference according to the rulebook (And I'm a Patriots fan saying this).

There was another less-obvious interference non-call later in the game but that didn't matter much. The Patriots mostly had their way after the first 5 minutes of the game.


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## Stewart Vernon

As far as I can tell... the only call blown that you could say is one the regular officials wouldn't have blown... was probably that "bonus" time-out that Seattle got vs Arizona.

What's funny... everyone is talking about granting that timeout... but really, the error that happened was on an earlier play... the one where they should have lost a timeout to an injury but didn't... so *that* is actually where the mistake happened.

At the point of calling the "last" timeout, Seattle had already been told they still had one remaining... so everything from that point was ok... the problem occurred much earlier when they weren't charged for one like they were supposed to.

Now... Coach Carroll could have been doing some gamesmanship on TV... but if we are going to blame the refs, we have to blame him and his staff too... because they aren't new to the NFL like the refs this year... so ZERO excuse for Carroll not knowing the rules and knowing he was really out of timeouts.

Carroll's comments made it seem like he thought he should have had one... so he was just as wrong and made the same mistake as the refs did.


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## Shades228

There will always be missed or blown calls but with these refs they're extreme. Most of the time you can argue it both ways. However these refs are just missing things that are obvious and even on replays they get it wrong. Cobb's TD return for instance when they picked up the flag for block in the back. They may have called the wrong person for it but then in the replay there was an obvious one. On all scoring plays the entire play is review able and they missed it again.


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## Stewart Vernon

Shades228 said:


> There will always be missed or blown calls but with these refs they're extreme. Most of the time you can argue it both ways. However these refs are just missing things that are obvious and even on replays they get it wrong. Cobb's TD return for instance when they picked up the flag for block in the back. They may have called the wrong person for it but then in the replay there was an obvious one. On all scoring plays the entire play is review able and they missed it again.


The entire play is reviewable... but they can't call a penalty that they didn't call before. Otherwise, on almost every reviewable play they could probably call "holding" on a lineman... and they don't want to get into that can of worms.

So... review replay has never been able to result in a flag that wasn't dropped being dropped.

So, if the refs screw up and call it wrong... replay can't be used to do anything but pick up that flag... it can't be used to drop another flag elsewhere.

That doesn't defend missing the block in the back... just explaining how replay can't fix that kind of mistake.

This happens a LOT, even with the regular refs.

So... my grading of the replacement refs has a lot to do with how they perform based on comparison to my memory of regular refs in the past.

Remember the regular refs make a lot of these kind of mistakes too... and games have been lost.

As for picking on stupid ref mistakes... Remember a few years ago when the regular refs screwed up the coin toss in an overtime game? The ref got the call on a coin toss wrong! That's about as silly of a mistake as you can get... and I didn't see anything on that level with the replacement refs this weekend.

Yeah, they goofed a lot on the pre-season... but they cleaned all that up it looks like to me.

I actually think the NFL should cough up the money and pay the regular refs... but all things considered, I can't argue that these replacements did a bad job.


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## Laxguy

Stewart Vernon said:


> The entire play is reviewable... but they can't call a penalty that they didn't call before. Otherwise, on almost every reviewable play they could probably call "holding" on a lineman... and they don't want to get into that can of worms.


I can understand not getting into minor infractions on a review, but major, potentially game changing ones??

Is this a written rule, or just established practice?


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## Stewart Vernon

Laxguy said:


> I can understand not getting into minor infractions on a review, but major, potentially game changing ones??
> 
> Is this a written rule, or just established practice?


I couldn't find the current rules... but from the 2011 rulebook at NFL.com, the pertinent section is:

"Note: *Non-reviewable plays* include but are not limited to:
1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
*3. Penalty administration
*4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Recovery of a loose ball that does not involve a boundary line or the end zone.
7. Field-goal or Try attempts that cross above either upright without touching anything.
8. Inadvertent Whistle"

So unless they changed it... they specifically wrote in that you can't use replay to administer penalties. Curiously, that also means they shouldn't be able to NOT enforce a called penalty as a result of replay.


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## Laxguy

Wow! And thank you! 

I would have breezed past "Administer Penalties" as to how they were handled, rather than the somewhat outdated use of "administer" to mean "give out". 

Among the things on my to do list is to download and read said NFL rules, and the vehicle code for the state of CA.... wonder which will be the tougher read? :grin:


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## Stewart Vernon

Yeah... I have to think they will re-visit this at some point.

I get why (as we discussed) they don't want to use replay to hand out holding penalties or various other things that might be present more than half of the time and are subjective anyway...

But, much like they do now review all scoring and all ruled-turnover plays... I would like to see them be able to rule on SOME other penalty situations.

Like... if there are too many men on the field (I think college replay can be used to count players and issue that penalty unless I'm remembering wrong).

OR in the case of the block in the back, you should be able to see this and issue OR recall a penalty if you can clearly see someone did or did not block in the back. That's not subjective, you either blocked in the back or did not...

Pass interference, however, has a subjective component... so I wouldn't want that to be reviewable... much like the old force-out rule (now gone anyway) wasn't reviewable.


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## JACKIEGAGA

Nice fake FG by the Packers


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## Carl Spock

*Go Pack Go !!!*

1-1, baby!

Get that perfect season BS off our back.


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## Stewart Vernon

I'm surprised... Green Bay looked pretty bad on Sunday... Chicago looked pretty good...

What a reversal of fortune in 4 days.

I'm not so much surprised by the Packers victory as I am the ineptitude of Chicago... I expected a close/competitive game, and though I did pick Chicago... I wasn't expecting a rout.


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## coldsteel

So how could they force that 12th Man penalty on Chicago, Stewart?


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## hdtvfan0001

Pack is Back.

Cutler still the most over-rated QB in the NFL.

Life is good.


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## Stewart Vernon

coldsteel said:


> So how could they force that 12th Man penalty on Chicago, Stewart?


I fell asleep during the game... seriously... so you'll have to help me out here.

IF you're referring to my earlier conversation on replay... Did they use replay to call a penalty?

IF so... then either they broke the rules to do so OR the rule has been changed since 2011. I couldn't find anything more current on the NFL Web site than 2011 for the rulebook... so I can't say if something has changed since then.


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## JACKIEGAGA

Tough week 2 for the Refs


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## Stewart Vernon

Looks to me like the single most problematic call has been with pass interference. We had a LOT called in week 1... and now in week 2 it looked like some teams were getting away with murder.

I would chalk that up to inexperienced refs not familiar with the rule and having to get a feel for it... then course correcting too far the other direction.

IF the strike lasts all season, then I would expect these refs to eventually get more calls right than wrong, and then next season it will be much harder to tell the difference between them and the experienced refs.


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## Laxguy

What chaps my hide more than anything is spearing or other flagrant, dangerous conduct, especially in the end zone after the touchdown is fact. 

Is there a mechanism in the NFL to review game films and levy fines after the fact? Is that info publicly available?


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## ARKDTVfan

pay the refs!!!

this is pathetic and last night's MNF was a joke (yet no one's laughing) :nono2:


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## hdtvfan0001

ARKDTVfan said:


> pay the refs!!!
> 
> this is pathetic and last night's MNF was a joke (yet no one's laughing) :nono2:


The officiating on a national broadcast stage last night was exceptionally embarrassing, especially to the NFL I'm sure.

The number of reversed calls alone probably set a record for one game.

I'm sure the "rent-a-refs" are working hard and trying...but lack the experience and knowledge that the regular guys provide....and boy does it show.

As for the game - it was pretty sloppy in and of itself.

The fact that Atlanta didn't clean Denver's clock in the first half alone from those turnovers makes one a bit suspect of their actual strength. Yes, they won, but by a ridiculously small margin given the "handouts" of turnovers. I suspect we didn't see either team's true colors for the rest of this season.


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## Stewart Vernon

I see two things in play here... neither of which are the replacement refs fault:

1. Most importantly, these guys (and the one gal) were literally brought in off the street and said "go ref the games" with not enough time to train and learn the NFL rules. For these refs, the pre-season was not nearly enough experience to get them ready for the regular season. Through no fault of their own, they are missing calls and being slow at getting others right.

2. A secondary thing, that reared its head clearly this weekend AND last night... The players and coaches know #1, and are trying to leverage that against these refs.

Coach Fox last night was going OFF railing at officials in the first half over a 12-men on defense call against Denver... and yet, the video clearly showed Denver did in fact have 12 men on the field... and worse, they did it again in the 2nd half BUT called a timeout before penalty that second time.

The points I'm making here are... The refs have their hands full... that's bad... but what's worse, to me, are the players and coaches trying to take advantage of the "substitute teachers" and be disrespectful in ways they wouldn't dream of with the regular refs.

It would make the job tremendously easier IF coaches and players would stay out of the NFL vs Ref strike AND would grant the replacement refs some manner of respect and not try to get away with stuff OR berate them until you get your way.


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## steve053

Stewart Vernon said:


> .....2. A secondary thing, that reared its head clearly this weekend AND last night... The players and coaches know #1, and are trying to leverage that against these refs.
> 
> Coach Fox last night was going OFF railing at officials in the first half over a 12-men on defense call against Denver... and yet, the video clearly showed Denver did in fact have 12 men on the field... and worse, they did it again in the 2nd half BUT called a timeout before penalty that second time.
> 
> The points I'm making here are... The refs have their hands full... that's bad... but what's worse, to me, are the players and coaches trying to take advantage of the "substitute teachers" and be disrespectful in ways they wouldn't dream of with the regular refs.
> 
> It would make the job tremendously easier IF coaches and players would stay out of the NFL vs Ref strike AND would grant the replacement refs some manner of respect and not try to get away with stuff OR berate them until you get your way.


I agree completely.

The NFL could curb some of this by sending 'warning' letters to offending coaches. Then hand out fines if the behavior continues. Wouldn't be the first time someone was fined after the fact.

I wonder if the players 'code of conduct' could fall under this as well.


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## coldsteel

Stewart Vernon said:


> I fell asleep during the game... seriously... so you'll have to help me out here.
> 
> IF you're referring to my earlier conversation on replay... Did they use replay to call a penalty?
> 
> IF so... then either they broke the rules to do so OR the rule has been changed since 2011. I couldn't find anything more current on the NFL Web site than 2011 for the rulebook... so I can't say if something has changed since then.


Yeah, sorry for the delay. They used replay, from a coach challenge, to show that Chicago didn't get a 12th man off the field before the snap.


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## Stewart Vernon

coldsteel said:


> Yeah, sorry for the delay. They used replay, from a coach challenge, to show that Chicago didn't get a 12th man off the field before the snap.


There may be some exceptions then... for something concrete like a 12th man penalty where they could just look and count.

Whereas a lot of the other types of penalties are judgment calls... so maybe they did tweak the rules to allow for some kinds of penalties, but still not most.

I wish I could have found a newer version of the rules AND that their rulebook was easier to find stuff inside!


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## hdtvfan0001

Stewart Vernon said:


> There may be some exceptions then... for something concrete like a 12th man penalty where they could just look and count.
> 
> Whereas a lot of the other types of penalties are *judgment calls*... so maybe they did tweak the rules to allow for some kinds of penalties, but still not most.


With multiple reversals, including one by an official of his own original call in the Atlanta/Denver game...the "judgment" skills in numerous cases seems to be that of a cantaloupe. The issues cited by reams of broadcasters and fans are often not "close calls". They are no-brainers in plenty of cases.

The players are complaining, the coaches are complaining, the fans are outraged, and the broadcasters reference it regularly in every NFL game.

It's an officiating circus right now - people simply have no way of knowing how game play will be judged. It also impacts the momentum and perhaps outcomes of some games. A travesty and nothing less.

The irony is how people frequently questioned the "real" officials in the past. In comparison, they look like geniuses.


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## rajmarie

I am finding this season....there are tooooo many interruption. & we are just 2 weeks old in this season.


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## Stewart Vernon

For all the things I've pointed out bad about the replacement refs... I'm still sorry to remind people that in the past we have had MANY complaints about the "real" refs...

Remember years ago the Jets getting a touchdown that wasn't and ultimately that left Cleveland out of the playoffs on a tie-break and their coach was fired?

Remember Denver beating San Diego a few years ago when they got an extra set of downs on a penalty that didn't happen?

Remember the overtime coin toss that the ref got wrong and gave the other team the ball? The coin toss! Really?

So... let's not pretend the regular refs were infallible... and let's not pretend that we didn't have many Monday morning "how bad were those refs" rants and conversations.

Some are talking as if getting back the regular refs would mean 100% greatness and zero complaints. We know that simply isn't true.

I want this settled too... but I'm not going to feed myself the fantasy that these replacement refs are the ruination of the game yet.


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## JACKIEGAGA

These Thursday Night games are tough on us east coasters especially when there is work tomorrow.


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## Stewart Vernon

JACKIEGAGA said:


> These Thursday Night games are tough on us east coasters especially when there is work tomorrow.


I'm torn... as a fan, I like having another night of NFL football and a timeslot wherein I don't have to pick which game to miss (like on Sunday when I have to switch back and forth to see parts of simultaneous games).

But it also plays havoc with my other TV viewing, all the stuff I have to DVR to watch on Friday before being backlogged again over the weekend!

And yeah, if I had to get up early on a Friday... that would be tough to do when you already don't want to go in on Friday anyway.


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## Stewart Vernon

steve053 said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> The NFL could curb some of this by sending 'warning' letters to offending coaches. Then hand out fines if the behavior continues. Wouldn't be the first time someone was fined after the fact.
> 
> I wonder if the players 'code of conduct' could fall under this as well.


Just saw a scroll on the bottom of the screen on ESPN that said the league has sent word to all of the coaches directing them to improve their behavior towards the replacement refs.

I can't excuse the mistakes... but you have to think the players take cues from seeing their head coach dismiss the replacement refs... so maybe IF the coaches start offering a little more respect the players will follow suit.

I saw a couple of instances in tonight's game of players fighting with opposing players and in the past I have to think regular refs would have had the courage to throw more flags and even eject some players.

I was saying to myself this weekend with some of the behavior, that I don't think it is going to stop until some players start getting ejected from games for fighting.


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## Hoosier205

Having Saints players/coaches yelling "kill the head" and making it rain from the sidelines probably doesn't help!


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## mrro82

The replacement refs have got to go. Non calls and blows calls are getting rediculous. Blatantly obvious calls at that.


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## djlong

I've almost never complained about referees - but last night? Oh man.

No flags for the first 10 minutes regardless of the fact that PUNCHES were being thrown in the Patriots/Ravens game.

Then a non-call when a lineman landed on top of a sliding Brady. Ok, maybe that was a bit questionable to call or not call but to have an offensive pass interference call when there were clearly legs being tangled - and the receiver was the one going to the ground? I mean both players were going for the ball and the refs robbed a damn good reception!

Then calling a measurement on 4th down when the ball was over a yard short - THEN a challenge flag on the spotting of the ball???? What is this - PeeWee level?

I couldn't stay awake beyond that point as I have to get up early in the morning. But then I hear that the winning field goal may have actually been wide?


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## JACKIEGAGA

djlong said:


> I've almost never complained about referees - but last night? Oh man.
> 
> No flags for the first 10 minutes regardless of the fact that PUNCHES were being thrown in the Patriots/Ravens game.
> 
> Then a non-call when a lineman landed on top of a sliding Brady. Ok, maybe that was a bit questionable to call or not call but to have an offensive pass interference call when there were clearly legs being tangled - and the receiver was the one going to the ground? I mean both players were going for the ball and the refs robbed a damn good reception!
> 
> Then calling a measurement on 4th down when the ball was over a yard short - THEN a challenge flag on the spotting of the ball???? What is this - PeeWee level?
> 
> I couldn't stay awake beyond that point as I have to get up early in the morning. But then I hear that the winning field goal may have actually been wide?


I also heard I think it was 49ers got an extra challange


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## MysteryMan

djlong said:


> I've almost never complained about referees - but last night? Oh man.
> 
> No flags for the first 10 minutes regardless of the fact that PUNCHES were being thrown in the Patriots/Ravens game.
> 
> Then a non-call when a lineman landed on top of a sliding Brady. Ok, maybe that was a bit questionable to call or not call but to have an offensive pass interference call when there were clearly legs being tangled - and the receiver was the one going to the ground? I mean both players were going for the ball and the refs robbed a damn good reception!
> 
> Then calling a measurement on 4th down when the ball was over a yard short - THEN a challenge flag on the spotting of the ball???? What is this - PeeWee level?
> 
> I couldn't stay awake beyond that point as I have to get up early in the morning. But then I hear that the winning field goal may have actually been wide?


The replacement refs are horrible. A virgin has more knowledge and experience with sex than they have with football. The coaches know this and are taking advantage of it. It's been a ugly season and will continue to get worse.


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## Davenlr

I'm glad I didnt pay big bucks to watch the NFL this year...Those refs totally suck. The game isnt even fun to watch anymore.

After the ridiculous ending of the Green Bay game, I totally refuse to watch another NFL game. They are totally and absolutely the worst group of officials and replay people I have ever seen in my life. They decide who wins and who loses. Doesnt matter how the game is played. Screw the NFL.


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## spartanstew

On one hand, it was an exciting game to watch.

On the other hand, the refs blew so many calls, including the final touchdown which was clearly an interception.

How could that ref signal touchdown when he was looking straight down at the GB player with the ball??


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## TheRatPatrol

Wow, just wow. :nono2:


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## yosoyellobo

The NFL should fire all the regular refs and keep the replacement. They could turn it into WWE NFL.


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## Carl Spock

As a Packer fan, I just want to hit a zebra.

Or Roger Goodell. Right now, for keeping this lockout going, he looks like a jackass.

They're all horse's asses in my book.


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## tonyd79

The NFL owes everyone refunds for deliberately putting an inferior product on the field. The integrity of their product is shot and it is a conscious decision.


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## sl8ty

I just cancelled Sunday Ticket. This replacement referee thing has totally ruined the NFL. The only way to voice my frustration is to let Direct and hopefully the NFL know that they will no longer get my money. I hope more people would follow suit. Everyone that paid for professional football on ST should be outraged, because whatever is being broadcast on Sunday isn't professional football.


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## Davenlr

For the blind NFL officials out there:

From NFL's facebook page: 


> BREAKING: Seahawks QB Russell Wilson becomes first NFL QB to throw game winning interception. #MNF


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## Laxguy

Carl Spock said:


> As a Packer fan, I just want to hit a zebra.
> 
> Or Roger Goodell. Right now, for keeping this lockout going, he looks like a jackass.
> 
> They're all horse's asses in my book.


As a Niner fan, I am right with you as that being the worst call ever. And why wasn't it overturned on the review?

And does the clear push in the back (P.I.) really get relegated to "not reviewable" even though it was part of a scoring (NOT scoring) play???


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## tonyd79

"Davenlr" said:


> For the blind NFL officials out there:
> 
> From NFL's facebook page:


After THOUSANDS of highly critical comments, they took the game winning story down.


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## Lord Vader

Laxguy said:


> As a Niner fan, I am right with you as that being the worst call ever. And why wasn't it overturned on the review?
> 
> And does the clear push in the back (P.I.) really get relegated to "not reviewable" even though it was part of a scoring (NOT scoring) play???


It wasn't overturned on review because possession calls are not reviewable via replay. That was another mistake on top of the original call, which should have been ruled an interception and touchback (end of game). It was not a simultaneous reception.

The NFL is a billion dollar industry with hundred dollar officials. For Pete's sake, they're not even using D1 officials. I personally know one of the replacement officials, a side judge from NW Indiana who also works NCAA Baseball games and who assigns the Midwest Collegiate League's umpires. The replacement officials are pulled from D2, D3, Junior College, and Arena Football League.

Pathetic, simply pathetic. For the love of the game, *BRING BACK THE REGULAR OFFICIALS!*


----------



## MysteryMan

Yesterday morning I posted it's been a ugly season that will continue to get worse. Last night's game proved my point. If I were in attendence I would have asked for my money back. Our beloved games are housed in billion dollar stadiums, played by multimillion dollar coaches and players with the outcome being determined by five cent referees. Roger Goodell neads to get his head out of his ass!


----------



## Carl Spock

Thank you, Roger Goodell, for getting me psyched for the baseball playoffs.

I'll watch the Packers-Saints game this Sunday. I'm a fan. But otherwise, I'm done with the NFL until they get the refs back. 

I've only got so much time for sports on television and the best part of the baseball season is coming up.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Last night featured 3 totally blown calls that most high school refs would have called correctly.

1) First there was the interception that was called back for "roughing the passer" on a routine mid-body light tackle of Russell Wilson.

2) Second was the interference call that every announcer agreed was offensive interference.

3) We all know about the final call that was plain insane - especially after the refs claimed to have reviewed it on instant replay (in record time by the way).

If any one of those calls goes the other way, the outcome changes - not just this one call.

These were not close calls -they were no brainers. The 27-year NFL ref in the MNF booth even indicated the replay showed it was an interception at the end, and also questioned the pass interference call earlier.

If Roger Goodell doesn't over-rule the final play and change the score....the NFL will forever be tainted by this game. The season was already a joke so far...now its a disgrace. It will take years to mend the trust by players and fans over what happened last night.

For a Commissioner who is obsessed with "bounty-gate" to maintain the integrity of pro foootball...he better step in now and right this travesty wrong...otherwise impeach the guy.


----------



## Steve

No bigger Giants fan than me, but my heart goes out to Packer fans today. That's right up there with the worst sports calls I've ever seen.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> No bigger Giants fan than me, but my heart goes out to Packer fans today. That's right up there with the worst sports calls I've ever seen.


Certainly a nice sentiment.

There already have been over 350 player tweets about the multiple bad calls in that game last night that literally changed the outcome of the game - players from other teams.

This transcends a specific team. It's about having any integrity left in a sport. Right now, it's known as the *National Farce League*.


----------



## Carl Spock

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If Roger Goodell doesn't over-rule the final play and change the score....the NFL will forever be tainted by this game.


I'll bet you a steak dinner that today the NFL will agree the call was blown but the outcome of the game stands. I'm trying to think of a single instance in the NFL that a blow officiating call, or multiple calls as your post points out, has caused the outcome of a game to be reversed retroactively.

You can add a bottle of good French wine to that dinner if Goodell doesn't issue significant fines against Packers players who made inflammatory Tweets last night after the game.

I can't wait to see the ratings for this Sunday's games. I'm looking for someone who will buy me a steak dinner if they aren't down at least 10% from last year. Right now, the NFL is playing joke football.


----------



## kick4fun

As a HUGE Seahawks fan here, I must say I'm sorry to all Packer Fans.. That game was ridiculous. That should have been an interception, plain and simple. What blows my mind is how great the Defense was on both sides and that will always be overshadowed from the controversy. Seahawks had "8" sacks on QB in just the 1st half, but of course no one will remember that.. SAD, just real sad!


----------



## tonyd79

Carl Spock said:


> You can add a bottle of good French wine to that dinner if Goodell doesn't issue significant fines against Packers players who made inflammatory Tweets last night after the game.


Saw a ticker item that said the NFL was not going to fine anyone unless they abuse the refs on the field. Don't remember if it was on ESPN or NFL Network. I was watching them both.


----------



## tonyd79

Lord Vader said:


> It wasn't overturned on review because possession calls are not reviewable via replay. That was another mistake on top of the original call, which should have been ruled an interception and touchback (end of game). It was not a simultaneous reception.


Okay, I have multiple problems with this. First, every review of a catch is possession. Second, the NFL has never put in writing what specifically is and is not reviewable and it seems to change from week to week.. Third, the NFL is notorious for making up rules and interpretations to support whatever the situation was to back the call on the field (Mike P's videos were absolutely laughable when he was the NFL shill...the refs never made a mistake). Fourth, this year, they have ignored ALL the replay rules and have reviewed things without challenges outside the last two minutes that were not scores or turnovers, including penalties.

This year has proven what I have known about the NFL all along...they make it up as they go along.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Carl Spock said:


> I'll bet you a steak dinner that today the NFL will agree the call was blown but the outcome of the game stands. I'm trying to think of a single instance in the NFL that a blow officiating call, or multiple calls as your post points out, has caused the outcome of a game to be reversed retroactively.
> 
> You can add a bottle of good French wine to that dinner if Goodell doesn't issue significant fines against Packers players who made inflammatory Tweets last night after the game.
> 
> I can't wait to see the ratings for this Sunday's games. I'm looking for someone who will buy me a steak dinner if they aren't down at least 10% from last year. Right now, the NFL is playing joke football.


Under normal circumstances....you're likely spot on.

Last night was considered once-in-a-lifetime situation where all announcers and almost all national press agreed about this situation shown on national TV. Those situations call for once-in-a-lifetime remedy. If that doesn't happen, look for the National Farce League to keep that name indefinitely in the sports world and fandom.


----------



## chevyguy559

Carl Spock said:


> You can add a bottle of good French wine to that dinner if Goodell doesn't issue significant fines against Packers players who made inflammatory Tweets last night after the game.


One of the Packers players tweeted to "give his fine to pay the old refs to come back" or something like that :lol:

No, they'll just fine Alex Smith for wearing a SF Giants hat at a press conference :nono2:


----------



## Carl Spock

The NFL has made their decision. Here's the press release.

They say offensive pass interference should have been called on Golden Tate against Sam Shields. That should have ended the game with Green Bay winning.

But that is not reviewable. The non-call stands.

A simultaneous catch in the end zone is reviewable. The NFL stands behind the call as made and reviewed. It will not be reversed.

The result of last night's decision is affirmed. Seattle wins the game, 14-12.

*hdtvfan0001*, you're lucky you didn't bet me. The NFL said the wrong call was made but the decision of the refs at the time remains.

I'm really sorry I was right.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Carl Spock said:


> *hdtvfan0001*, you're lucky you didn't bet me. The NFL said the wrong call was made but the decision of the refs at the time remains.
> 
> I'm really sorry I was right.


That bet was highly unlikely from the get go...and you cited good reasons why....the NFL has a strong history of fighting to say they were wrong - and when they do - they concede and say nothing will change.

That press release won't do anything to calm the immense negativity toward both the rent-a-refs or the league itself for how this was handled. The effects of this disaster and break in credibility will be long and measurable no doubt.


----------



## Lord Vader

tonyd79 said:


> Okay, I have multiple problems with this. First, every review of a catch is possession.


For simultaneous possession plays, review is not allowed to change them.



> Second, the NFL has never put in writing what specifically is and is not reviewable and it seems to change from week to week..


It actually is in writing. ESPN afterward discussed the rule and the replay conditions.



> Fourth, this year, they have ignored ALL the replay rules and have reviewed things without challenges outside the last two minutes that were not scores or turnovers, including penalties.


That's yet another sign the current officials aren't doing things correctly. Numerous times this season they have reviewed situations that are not reviewable. This is another reason why the real ones ought to come back.



> This year has proven what I have known about the NFL all along...they make it up as they go along.


This would appear to be the case in a league that has had to damage control every week.


----------



## tonyd79

"Lord Vader" said:


> For simultaneous possession plays, review is not allowed to change them.
> 
> It actually is in writing. ESPN afterward discussed the rule and the replay conditions.
> 
> That's yet another sign the current officials aren't doing things correctly. Numerous times this season they have reviewed situations that are not reviewable. This is another reason why the real ones ought to come back.
> 
> This would appear to be the case in a league that has had to damage control every week.


The NFL disagrees with you. Says it is reviewable. They just denied the actual visual evidence.


----------



## Lord Vader

Carl Spock said:


> The NFL has made their decision. Here's the press release.
> 
> They say offensive pass interference should have been called on Golden Tate against Sam Shields. That should have ended the game with Green Bay winning.
> 
> But that is not reviewable. The non-call stands.
> 
> A simultaneous catch in the end zone is reviewable. The NFL stands behind the call as made and reviewed. It will not be reversed.
> 
> The result of last night's decision is affirmed. Seattle wins the game, 14-12.
> 
> *hdtvfan0001*, you're lucky you didn't bet me. The NFL said the wrong call was made but the decision of the refs at the time remains.
> 
> I'm really sorry I was right.


Interesting, considering that recently retired NFL Referee Gerry Austin explained, as did a current locked out official on ESPN Radio this morning, such possession calls are not subject to replay review. Did the NFL change things when someone wasn't looking?


----------



## Carl Spock

The NFL does make the distinction that simultaneous possession calls are not reviewable on the field of play but are in the endzone. That may be a new refinement to the rule. 

Or as tonyd79 said, they are making it up as they go along.


----------



## Lord Vader

I don't doubt it!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

This was another situation where we had a bad call compounded by a flaw in the review rules.

I'm still amazed that we have flaws like that in the rules, though... To me, that is just as bad as the replacement ref situation... Why have a rule that all scoring plays will be reviewed BUT have certain aspects that are not reviewable?

We aren't talking about matters of opinion in this case either... This wasn't simultaneous possession... this was one person having clear possession, and then the other person sticking an arm in and then on the ground trying to take the ball away. Heck, in other games we saw plays just like this one overturned... you know "fumbles" where the player was on the ground and the other team ripped the ball out after he was down.

I actually get how the refs might not have seen this correctly in real-time. I admit, watching in real time my first thought was, wow... he caught it... for a touchdown... but upon replay, it was infinitely clear to me that it was an interception.

That said... we unfortunately have the muddy water that neither team really can say they played their best. Yes, it was a defensive struggle... but both teams had other opportunities to make this not a final-play game decider.

But absolutely... this is a play that they really (if they care about integrity of the game) should have overturned today.

In most situations, you can't overturn egregious plays because other parts of the game are effected and you don't know if it 100% changed the outcome... like that pass interference that should have been called...

But on the literal final play of the game... this was a final play one way or the other. AND if it had been called an interception, even die-hard Seattle fans wouldn't have had a gripe after seeing the replay.

So... this is a prime example of something the NFL could fix... but I knew they wouldn't. I just hope this doesn't change the playoff teams measurably by the end of the season.

I don't think it will bounce Green Bay, but it might decide seeding... and it might be a win that gets some other team bounced.

I still remember that game (John Clayton referred to it as well) where Testaverde for the Jets got a touchdown but never crossed the plain. That was bad enough, and with regular officials and NO replay that season... but the fallout was more... that year, that game meant the Jets got into the playoffs over Cleveland... and Cleveland fired their coach that year. So that year that one mistake cost a playoff spot AND a job for a coach.


----------



## Lord Vader

I don't think the NFL should have overturned the call and changed the game's outcome. That would have made things worse and would have, IMHO, further damaged the integrity of the game.


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## Lord Vader

So this doesn't make sense. From the NFL:



> The referee never conferred with the two officials in the end zone and went to a video review, which, by rule, could not overturn the simultaneous possession and could only determine if the pass was incomplete.


Way to clear things up! Not.


----------



## Carl Spock

Anybody know when Roger Goodell's contract is up?

After basically losing the players lockout fight in 2011 - the only big thing the owners got was a continuation of franchise tag on players - he is now in charge of this debacle. The owners are going to get so much grief from their teams and fans this next seven days, I'll bet the referees are back by the 6th week. If Goodell's contract is up after the season, he's gone.

Protect the sheild? It's looking pretty tarnished.


----------



## Lord Vader

I think he just got an extension/renewal recently, to be honest with you.


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## Carl Spock

#%$& !!!


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## Lord Vader

From what I've heard, the owners really like him.


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## JACKIEGAGA

Carl Spock said:


> The NFL has made their decision. Here's the press release.
> 
> They say offensive pass interference should have been called on Golden Tate against Sam Shields. That should have ended the game with Green Bay winning.
> 
> But that is not reviewable. The non-call stands.
> 
> A simultaneous catch in the end zone is reviewable. The NFL stands behind the call as made and reviewed. It will not be reversed.


They are calling it the *Inaccurate Reception* on ESPN

This press release is a total sham the NFL just wants to stand by the Refs.

If that happen to Jerry Jones, Mara's, Arthur Blank , Robert Kraft the would be screaming their heads off. We haven't heard a peep from them because they are so dam greedy for money.
Goodell is the owners puppet he has no say with the owners. If this was Pete Rozelle would say "Come on let's get something done it's bad for the sport"

Sorry Packer fans.

The NFL should be apologizing to the fans today.


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## Hoosier205

I haven't had any problem with him up until this situation. I loved how he took care of the Saints.


----------



## bnwrx

Lost in all this discussion about good call/bad call/missed calls and less experienced officials on the NFL fields is the offer currently on the table for the locked out officials. I read today that the locked out officials currently average $149,000 per season($9,312 per game). The NFL has proposed an ANNUAL 7% increase over 7 years that would bring the average pay to $189,000($11,812 per game) by 2018. When was the last time you got annual raises of 7%! The NFL also wants to include hiring an additional 20 or so refs. They would be used in cases where current officials would be suspended a game for "Bad Calls". Also current officials receive a pension for their service to the league. Jeeeez people, think about these numbers for a part time job and how much more the locked out guys want? You can't just give and give and give. It is a shame that Green Bay had to lose that game, it was a bad/wrong call, no doubt in my mind, but there is a bigger picture here. Thankfully the NFL is playing the games, they could have decided to suspend all games until a resolution is done. Until that time we'll just have to bear with these replacement guys until the regular ref's come to some common sense. My opinion of course, but not a bad gig if you can get it.....


----------



## TheRatPatrol

"bnwrx" said:


> Lost in all this discussion about good call/bad call/missed calls and less experienced officials on the NFL fields is the offer currently on the table for the locked out officials. I read today that the locked out officials currently average $149,000 per season($9,312 per game). The NFL has proposed an ANNUAL 7% increase over 7 years that would bring the average pay to $189,000($11,812 per game) by 2018. When was the last time you got annual raises of 7%! The NFL also wants to include hiring an additional 20 or so refs. They would be used in cases where current officials would be suspended a game for "Bad Calls". Also current officials receive a pension for their service to the league. Jeeeez people, think about these numbers for a part time job and how much more the locked out guys want? You can't just give and give and give. It is a shame that Green Bay had to lose that game, it was a bad/wrong call, no doubt in my mind, but there is a bigger picture here. Thankfully the NFL is playing the games, they could have decided to suspend all games until a resolution is done. Until that time we'll just have to bear with these replacement guys until the regular ref's come to some common sense. My opinion of course, but not a bad gig if you can get it.....


Where can we sign up to be refs? I'm all in for that pay.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I think that anger towards Roger Goodell is misdirected. He is quite literally in most things a puppet to the owners. I mean, he is directly employed by them to moderate and represent their interests... so IF he was doing something other than what the owners wanted, he would be fired... and in this case, you know he is doing exactly what the owners want.

I have to think even he, though, doesn't like how this is going and wishes the owners would get their top half out of their lower back half and fix this.


----------



## Lord Vader

He is only doing the bidding of the owners on this. The owners are deadset against the NFL officials in this. Even some owners whose teams have been the victims of these refs (that'd be just about all the teams by now) are so stubborn that they will support the League and Goodell regardless of how badly it affects any team, even their own. 

How sad.


----------



## Carl Spock

Stewart, good point about the relationship between Goodell and the owners. Just like in baseball, the commissioner has to serve his masters, the owners.

Goodell has been in charge of two public relations disasters, though, and the owners rely on him to keep the league looking good in the public eye. The league got away with the first one, the players lockout in 2011. By settling during the preseason, by the time the games started, the lockout was mostly forgotten by the public. 

This dispute may be different. Because of last night's disaster during a high profile Monday Night Football game, the lockout has become an issue outside of the sports world. Even the president commented today that he hopes the lockout is settled soon. It is Goodell's job to make the league look good and it certainly doesn't look good today.

Assuming the lockout is resolved in the next week or two, which it could happen because the money involved here is so incredibly small, Goodell and the league will probably not suffer any long term PR consequences. 

There is a risk here. When the 1994 baseball strike caused the last three months of the season to be canceled, including the World Series, it took a couple of years for baseball to return to the public's good graces. 

If the referees lockout continues and there is a widespread players revolt, the general public, not just sports fans, could get fed up with the NFL very quickly. I read today of players talking about taking a knee on every play, effectively stopping the games. I don't see that happening now but if the lockout is still in effect in week 10, it could happen. 

I wouldn't want to be Roger Goodell then.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

I hope that Green Bay loss costs a playoff spot for one of these high profile owners.


----------



## Carl Spock

Vader, there is a great story about the baseball owners, who are similarly small minded men, only concerned that the commissioner keeps them rich, in the excellent book, The Lords of the Realm, by John Helyer. That book is about the baseball owners and the rise of the union, and because of that is a little dated, but is still a wonderful read. Find it at your library and enjoy. You'll learn tidbits like the reason Harry Carey was fired by the St. Louis Cardinals was because he was shtupping Auggie Busch's wife.

Anyway, when Ted Turner became owner of the Atlanta Braves, he was definitely the odd man out at the baseball meetings. He wasn't a rich patriarch like most of the other owners. He'd argue with them and lose most of the arguments. After one particularly frustrating meeting, Ted Turner stood up and bellowed at his fellow owners, "Gentlemen, we have the only legal monopoly in sports and we're f***ing it up!"

The football owners seem equally closed minded. With maybe one or two exceptions, the integrity of the games means a lot less to them than keeping their pocketbooks full. Keep the cash flowing and their luxury boxes comfortable and they'll be happy.

Where's Al Davis when we need him?

Six feet under.


----------



## Davenlr

Im sure glad Xfinity added CSS-HD yesterday. Now I can watch all the SEC college replay games Sunday instead of the NFL crap. I'm done with the NFL until they get the rent a refs off the field. Although, it does make for an interesting comedy/reality show, if you are into that type programming.


----------



## dpeters11

This pretty much says everything. The Lingerie League issued a statement that several referees that are acting as NFL replacements were previously fired from the LFL for incompetence.

http://deadspin.com/5946112/the-lin...fficiating-in-the-nfl-because-of-incompetence


----------



## Carl Spock

I saw this today. Actually, I heard it first mentioned the past week on Dan Patrick's show on the 101. When he kept talking about the Lingerie League, I assumed it was a joking name for something like arena football. No, he was talking about the _Lingerie League_.

If I was an NFL player and risking my safety out on the field, I would be very concerned.


----------



## yosoyellobo

dpeters11 said:


> This pretty much says everything. The Lingerie League issued a statement that several referees that are acting as NFL replacements were previously fired from the LFL for incompetence.
> 
> http://deadspin.com/5946112/the-lin...fficiating-in-the-nfl-because-of-incompetence


That might be excusable.


----------



## yosoyellobo

JACKIEGAGA said:


> I hope that Green Bay loss costs a playoff spot for one of these high profile owners.


The whole state of Wisconsin.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

JACKIEGAGA said:


> I hope that Green Bay loss costs a playoff spot for one of these high profile owners.


I'm a high profile owner with 4 Packer shares...does that count? 

Actually, I'd prefer it cost the Commish *HIS* job.


----------



## Hoosier205

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> I'm a high profile owner with 4 Packer shares...does that count?
> 
> Actually, I'd prefer it cost the Commish HIS job.


No way. Not until he makes those Saints suspensions stick anyway...


----------



## Stewart Vernon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm a high profile owner with 4 Packer shares...does that count?
> 
> Actually, I'd prefer it cost the Commish *HIS* job.


Problem, though... it isn't the "commish" at fault here. He's just delivering the line agreed upon by the NFL owners.

Goodell didn't decide to lockout the refs anymore than he decided to lockout the players. The owners did that... and had Goodell deliver the message.

IF Goodell takes the heat, that's fine because he gets $20 million a year to take the heat... but fired? No way... IF the league tried to dump this on Goodell, that would be worse than what they are doing here thinking we are all stupid and accepting the replacements... to try and make the public think Goodell is to blame would be the height of arrogance.

IF they fired him at the end of this... then the NFL will only prove just how disconnected their owners truly are from reality.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stewart Vernon said:


> Problem, though... it isn't the "commish" at fault here. He's just delivering the line agreed upon by the NFL owners.


He's empowered to make decisions, especially the tough ones. Look at the fiasco with the whole bounty escapade...he was judge, jury, and executioner on that despite even court challenges to his authority.

Nothing prevents him from saying "you know what...*the integrity of the game is in jeopardy* by the incorrect results of the MNF situation, and since known rules were implemented wrong (with evidence) and it was applied by temp refs...I am reversing the outcome.

That's called leadership, and only his ego prevents him from doing it. Right now, he's part of the problem and none of the solution.


----------



## tonyd79

"Stewart Vernon" said:


> Problem, though... it isn't the "commish" at fault here. He's just delivering the line agreed upon by the NFL owners.
> 
> Goodell didn't decide to lockout the refs anymore than he decided to lockout the players. The owners did that... and had Goodell deliver the message.
> 
> IF Goodell takes the heat, that's fine because he gets $20 million a year to take the heat... but fired? No way... IF the league tried to dump this on Goodell, that would be worse than what they are doing here thinking we are all stupid and accepting the replacements... to try and make the public think Goodell is to blame would be the height of arrogance.
> 
> IF they fired him at the end of this... then the NFL will only prove just how disconnected their owners truly are from reality.


Which ticks me off even more about him. No integrity. He doesn't need this job. Tell the truth. Do the right thing. If he says they need the refs back and the owners fire him, he is a hero. But, no. He will continue for the money that he really doesn't need.


----------



## Lord Vader

hdtvfan0001 said:


> He's empowered to make decisions, especially the tough ones. Look at the fiasco with the whole bounty escapade...he was judge, jury, and executioner on that despite even court challenges to his authority.
> 
> Nothing prevents him from saying "you know what...*the integrity of the game is in jeopardy* by the incorrect results of the MNF situation, and since known rules were implemented wrong (with evidence) and it was applied by temp refs...I am reversing the outcome.
> 
> That's called leadership, and only his ego prevents him from doing it. Right now, he's part of the problem and none of the solution.


He can't reverse the outcome because it was a judgment call, and NFL rules do not permit the commissioner to overturn judgment calls.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> *He can't reverse the outcome because it was a judgment call*, and NFL rules do not permit the commissioner to overturn judgment calls.


Actually he can.

In this case...with rent-a-refs at the wheel...he is empowered to determine that a rule was not followed and over-ride it. One such rule includes following procedures for instant replay, as well as referee consultations.

It comes down to: If he wanted to....he could.

What's clear is he has neither the intent or leadership skills to do anything and take the easy way out.

For a guy who promotes himself as being intensely interested in "the integrity of the game", he's a major league wuss in this case.


----------



## Lord Vader

He cannot determine a rule was not followed in this situation. It was a judgment call, good or bad. Consequently, per the NFL rules, it cannot be overturned. Nor should it be in this situation. Two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> He cannot determine a rule was not followed in this situation. It was a judgment call, good or bad. Consequently, per the NFL rules, it cannot be overturned. Nor should it be in this situation. Two wrongs don't make a right.


I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Lord Vader

It's not a question of agreeing or disagreeing; it's a question of what can or can't be done per the rules. I don't like the situation any more than you do, but the commissioner can't do as he pleases when specifically not permitted to do something like change a judgment call. That would make things worse.


----------



## Carl Spock

Whether he can or not, the commissioner shouldn't overturn the decision.

That would keep us all just living in the past. Instead, the Packers have to get ready for the Saints this Sunday and Goodell has to settle this damn lockout. 

It's over. It's done. It's time to play NFL football with the regular refs. The parties should focus on that.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Carl Spock said:


> It's over. It's done. It's time to play NFL football with the regular refs. The parties should focus on that.


Yup.


----------



## Lord Vader

Finally! The NFL and the Officials have reached an agreement "in principle."


----------



## Carl Spock

Shouldn't that be "without principles"? I bet we'll find the NFL caved to get these guys back on the field. The lockout had become an embarassment for the league.

In any case, I'm glad it's over.

It's time to sing the Star Spangled Banner and play a game.


----------



## Lord Vader

Indeed.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Just to bottom line my earlier point...

Anything you think Goodell is doing on his own (Bounty thing, refs, issuing fines, etc.) you can be assured he is NOT acting on his own.

The owners hired him to do a job... they gave him some leeway in that job probably... but he also knows IF he does something that most of the owners do not like, it will be his head on the platter.

So... any time you see Goodell "acting alone" and being "judge, jury, etc." you should know that he isn't acting alone... and that the majority of the owners back the decision... or he wouldn't be taking those actions.

So, yes... he could step out and say "this isn't good for the game" and it wouldn't make a difference, because he would be fired on the spot for insubordination and replaced and the league would keep doing what it is doing.

I'm not saying he is a great and wonderful and principled man... I'm just saying he isn't alone in a vacuum. Ever word he utters has the backing of most of the owners. If he didn't, you would know it.


----------



## Carl Spock

I don't know if Goodell be fired on the spot. That's a bit dramatic. But leadership in that office on a controversial issue.

Pete Rozelle is one model. He pushed the owners to accept revenue sharing and merger of the AFL and NFL into one league. He wasn't anybody's lap dog. Under his leadership, the NFL even sued one of the owners, Al Davis, to keep his team from moving from Oakland to Los Angeles. Rozelle made the NFL into the juggernaut it is today. When he took over the job as commissioner, the NFL was a third class league, behind both baseball and the NBA. Under his leadership, it became the most popular sport in America.

The one thing Rozelle was always conscious of was making sure the owners made money. He made them a ton of money and got their support because of that.

The other extreme is Fay Vincent. As baseball commissioner, he rubbed the owners the wrong way, so much that he was fired after three years. The owners then hired one of their own, Bud Selig, to take his job. Selig has served the owner's interests for two decades now.

Fay Vincent's biggest failure was money. Although he was personally popular with the fans, Vincent screwed up the television contract. He cost the owners money and lost his job.

See a trend here?


----------



## Davenlr

I went to read a story on ESPN.COM about the negotiations, and got this:


> The following content is exclusive to ESPN Insiders


Not enough that I already pay two providers for their content, but now they want me to pay $3.33 per month to read their website? ESPN...you can KMA just like the NFL. Greed is going to be the downfall of this country.


----------



## Lord Vader

Indeed. It's one of the 7 Deadly Sins, is it not?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

It would have to be better getting the regular refs back, so let's hope that occurs. 

However, the NFL's severly damaged reputation and direct impact to this year's outcome are forever tainted regardless.


----------



## Lord Vader

According to an ESPN report I saw earlier today, the NFL's ratings are up this year. So much for fans being so pissed that they're avoiding the game.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> According to an ESPN report I saw earlier today, *the NFL's ratings are up *this year. So much for fans being so pissed that they're avoiding the game.


So is Pro Wrestling...and that's pretty much equally "real".


----------



## spartanstew

hdtvfan0001 said:


> However, the NFL's severly damaged reputation and direct impact to this year's outcome are forever tainted regardless.


forever tainted? If the regular refs do come back this weekend, most football fans will forget all about the replacement refs in about 3 weeks.


----------



## Laxguy

spartanstew said:


> forever tainted? If the regular refs do come back this weekend, most football fans will forget all about the replacement refs in about 3 weeks.


Even if they don't, I suspect that fans whose teams didn't make it to the playoffs and were legit pre-season likelies will be sure that it was because of the reffing. Those whose teams do well will forget all about it.

I am sick for the Packers, players and fans. What a ____ job.


----------



## Davenlr

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/?xid=cnnnav

The lockout is OVER. The Union refs and NFL agreed on contract and will return to the field.

Whew.


----------



## Hoosier205

It was funny that Mort was saying a deal was near on ESPN hours ago and Peter King with SI was pushing back saying a deal was not imminent at the same time. Then ESPN had word that a deal was done long before SI would say the same.


----------



## Carl Spock

Boy, the referees sure won on this deal. But then, for it to come together this quickly, the owners had to cave.

I heard this morning on that the settlement cost each owner about $100,000 a year. I bet that's Jerry Jones' electric bill for his scoreboard alone. When you have billion dollar franchises, you wonder what they were fighting about in the first place?

This is why I blame Roger Goodell. Pete Rozelle would never have let a situation this solvable get so out of hand.


----------



## sigma1914

We have a lot of Packers fans on our great site .... Are you gentlemen ok?


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

sigma1914 said:


> We have a lot of Packers fans on our great site .... Are you gentlemen ok?


 The Colts were playing for their coach they deserved to win


----------



## Lord Vader

"sigma1914" said:


> We have a lot of Packers fans on our great site .... Are you gentlemen ok?


I'm mobile today and not watching. What's going on with the Packers?


----------



## sigma1914

JACKIEGAGA said:


> They were playing for their coach


Yeah that was truly an inspirational victory.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sigma1914 said:


> We have a lot of Packers fans on our great site .... Are you gentlemen ok?


Sure...no problem.

We're getting used to officials missing calls to decide games this season.


----------



## Lord Vader

What happened, gentlemen?


----------



## sigma1914

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sure...no problem.
> 
> We're getting used to officials missing calls to decide games this season.


What was wrong this week? Everyone agrees you guys were screwed in Seattle.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> What happened, gentlemen?


INDY by a field goal at the end...but it was really decided earlier when INDY was allowed to hold PACK receivers or else defensive lineman the entire 2nd half without any call.

In other words...nothing new. 

It's getting easier each week to "predict" how various games will turn out - almost like someone is "controlling" the outcomes.

By the way...I've seen 3 games so far and the same holds true for all 3 games.


----------



## Lord Vader

Sounds like whiny Packers fans to me. They can't accept mediocrity, so they blame the officials, the NFL, & soon, probably George W. Bush.


----------



## sigma1914

hdtvfan0001 said:


> INDY by a field goal at the end...but it was really decided earlier when INDY was allowed to hold PACK receivers or else defensive lineman the entire 2nd half without any call.
> 
> In other words...nothing new.
> 
> It's getting easier each week to "predict" how various games will turn out - almost like someone is "controlling" the outcomes.
> 
> By the way...I've seen 3 games so far and the same holds true for all 3 games.


So, your kicker was "controlled" to miss? :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> Sounds like whiny Packers fans to me. They can't accept mediocrity, so they blame the officials, the NFL, & soon, probably George W. Bush.


really...the whole country saw (and almost all announcers on every sports channel) already saw 2 games that were horrendous...1 by the rent-a-refs and 1 by regular refs. No need to whine, it's quite obvious what's happening. It's not just the Packers either.


sigma1914 said:


> So, your kicker was "controlled" to miss? :lol:


Nope.

The were controlled to look the other way on no less than 5 holding calls that even the announcers saw...2 of which led to scores by INDY. It's getting to be the 2012 Mantra - physicality wins games, not rules.

I guess the NFL figured a "feel good game for the Coach" was a better headline. If it was just one game that would be something, but I saw 3 other teams in the same boat today - games decided by refs asleep that led to winning scores.


----------



## mrro82

hdtvfan0001 said:


> really...the whole country saw (and almost all announcers on every sports channel) already saw 2 games that were horrendous...1 by the rent-a-refs and 1 by regular refs. No need to whine, it's quite obvious what's happening. It's not just the Packers either.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> The were controlled to look the other way on no less than 5 holding calls that even the announcers saw...2 of which led to scores by INDY. It's getting to be the 2012 Mantra - physicality wins games, not rules.
> 
> I guess the NFL figured a "feel good game for the Coach" was a better headline. If it was just one game that would be something, but I saw 3 other teams in the same boat today - games decided by refs asleep that led to winning scores.


Woodson got away with a few today too so stop belly aching. Accept your team as is. That's really low to bring up Paganos illness too. Poor taste.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mrro82 said:


> *Woodson got away with a few today too... *


Quite true.

But you missed the point. *It's not with just one team or one game*. It seems like a number of games have some rent-a-refs based on some of the stuff they are missing. Maybe they're just rusty.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Still complaining about officials? Color me unsurprised. Why did I know the complaining wouldn't change a bit when the "real" refs came back?

Meanwhile...

Green Bay...

I'm not a hater.. but let's be honest... Watching Green Bay ALL last season, and now thus far this season... Can you honestly say they are doing anything differently?

Think about it...

Yeah, they were 15-1 last season... but every single week most of us were watching and saying... man... Rodgers plays near perfect and they squeak by... IF he ever has a slight drop in performance to reality... they lose. ALL last season, they had shootout games most weeks... and honestly, could have just as easily lost probably half of the games that they won.

This season? Rodgers isn't quite as perfect as he pretty much was last season... the defense seems in some ways to be worse... so there you go... all those games they won in spite of themselves last year... they are losing.

Green Bay is pretty much the same team from where I sit... they didn't fix any of the flaws that they got away with most of last year.

I'll argue much of the same thing for Detroit... Detroit won some shootouts too last year... they are losing them this year. Detroit didn't suddenly turn to crap either... they just aren't getting the breaks they got last year.

Detroit and Green Bay both need to look in the mirror and realize there are a lot of little things they simply are not doing week-to-week...

New Orleans (currently playing) is pretty much in the same boat. Still got a good offense, but still not playing defense for crap... and their thus far 0-4 record shows it... whereas last year they won some of these games.

Who knows how tonight will play out... but I don't think New Orleans is suddenly playing dramatically worse this year either... just a hair worse... and that is making all the difference.

The really good/solid teams? Those teams aren't necessarily impressive week to week... but they are strong in key areas AND seem to improve as the season goes along... instead of just winging it and getting a few breaks until the chips stop falling.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stewart Vernon said:


> The really good/solid teams? Those teams aren't necessarily impressive week to week... but they are strong in key areas AND seem to improve as the season goes along... instead of just winging it and getting a few breaks until the chips stop falling.


Certainly that's true of a couple of teams.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

As a reminder of "things will be better when the real refs are back"...

How 'bout that 49ers v Rams game today?

Some odd ref v clock situations that weren't corrected during that game, eh?

I've seen several things now that I haven't posted about since the real refs returns that frankly would have been expected from the replacements, not the "experienced" guys!


----------



## Unknown

Cops: Chiefs player kills woman, self
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8697360/kansas-city-chiefs-player-commits-suicide-team-facility


----------



## VDP07

Tim Tebow and Chad Johnson Tweeted heart felt condolences to the Cheifs organization, the fans and the Belcher family. Not so much for the victim or her family I guess. Unreal.


----------



## Lord Vader

The game should not have been played.

In related news, Bob Costas went on a brief rant advocating gun control. Costas said that if Belcher hadn't had a gun, his girl friend and himself would still be alive. Uh, Bob, if he was hell bent on killing his girl friend and himself, the lack of a gun wouldn't have stopped him from killing. Numerous other methods could have been used.


----------



## djlong

What got me was all the "he was a heck of a teammate" and "this didn't seem like him" comments from the players.

I would have liked to have heard even ONE comment of "I guess I didn't know him if he was capable of this atrocity".


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Coaches

Norv Turner (Chargers)
Andy Reid (Eagles)
Pat Shurmur (Browns) 
Chan Gailey (Bills)
Lovie Smith (Bears)
Ken Whisenhunt (Cardinals)
Romeo Crennel (Chiefs)


GM's 
Tom Heckert (Browns)
Mike Tannenbaum (Jets)
Gene Smith (Jaguars)
A.J. Smith (Chargers)
Rod Graves (Cardinals)

All got the ax so far. I guess that's why they call it Black Monday.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Coaches
> 
> Norv Turner (Chargers)
> Andy Reid (Eagles)
> Pat Shurmur (Browns)
> Chan Gailey (Bills)
> Lovie Smith (Bears)
> Ken Whisenhunt (Cardinals)
> Romeo Crennel (Chiefs)
> 
> GM's
> Tom Heckert (Browns)
> Mike Tannenbaum (Jets)
> Gene Smith (Jaguars)
> A.J. Smith (Chargers)
> Rod Graves (Cardinals)
> 
> All got the ax so far. I guess that's why they call it Black Monday.


All good choices - it's amazing some of them lasted as long as they did.

Now the only question is how many of those coaches get recycled in a new city with a new team, in contrast to totally new faces appearing as replacements.


----------



## spartanstew

Jim Schwartz needs to be next.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Its funny how all the coaches and GM's get fired but none of the players do. I say start firing some of the players too.


----------



## hilmar2k

How Rex Ryan is still employed is mind boggling.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hilmar2k said:


> How Rex Ryan is still employed is mind boggling.


Then again....maybe no one else would want the job.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

hilmar2k said:


> How Rex Ryan is still employed is mind boggling.


I'm shocked also.


----------



## sdk009

TheRatPatrol said:


> Its funny how all the coaches and GM's get fired but none of the players do. I say start firing some of the players too.


First off there aren't enough good healthy players around to keep every team at a highly competitve level. Secondly, good coaching can turn good players into a really good team. Look at what's happened with the Seahawks and Niners over the last two years.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sdk009 said:


> First off there aren't enough good healthy players around to keep every team at a highly competitve level. Secondly, good coaching can turn good players into a really good team. Look at what's happened with the Seahawks and Niners over the last two years.


One could make the case that good players also overcome bad coaches.


----------



## hilmar2k

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then again....maybe no one else would want the job.


The Jets do have some of the worst ownership/management in the NFL. But that said, there are obviously many coaches that would jump at that job.

As a Patriots fan living in NY, it does bring me some satisfaction watching Jets fans the past couple of seasons. And it isn't getting any better for them anytime soon. Same for the Giants, really. They have a ton of holes to fill, and other than JPP not a ton of good young players.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Jets keeping Ryan isn't surprising... they seem to be so non-functional right now that they probably can't see the forest of problems for the trees.

Chicago firing Lovey is a bit of a surprise, though... because 10-6 is not a bad year even though they didn't make the playoffs... and they probably make the playoffs last season if not for injuries. Chicago has an offensive line/scheme problem that they need to fix... the next coach will do no better if they don't address that. I personally think their hiring of Mike Martz a few years ago set them back several seasons even after letting him go... I think he messed things up enough that whomever was next coaching the offense would have an uphill battle.

Good to see some GMs on the list... While not defending Rex Ryan... most of the Jets problems really seems to be personnel decisions... letting go of people they wanted, getting people they didn't... then Ryan has to deal with whatever they give him.


----------



## Hoosier205

Ryan wasn't the problem. The GM had to go however.


----------



## Lord Vader

Stewart Vernon said:


> Chicago firing Lovey is a bit of a surprise, though... because 10-6 is not a bad year even though they didn't make the playoffs... and they probably make the playoffs last season if not for injuries. Chicago has an offensive line/scheme problem that they need to fix... the next coach will do no better if they don't address that. I personally think their hiring of Mike Martz a few years ago set them back several seasons even after letting him go... I think he messed things up enough that whomever was next coaching the offense would have an uphill battle.


Stewart,

My brother and nephew and I spent the day watching football yesterday (we're both transplanted Chicagoans, so the Bears are close to our hearts, although they're #2 behind my Steelers, who kinda sucked this year). After the Bears won and the Packers lost (dammit), my brother and I commented that it was time for Lovie to go. With a franchise like the Chicago Bears, there is NO excuse to miss the playoffs 5 out of the last 6 seasons. Lovie had no clue how to be an offensive coach.

From what I know in talking to my friends up in Chicago, and after listening to 670 The Score Chicago Sports Talk all afternoon today, it's clear that this decision to fire Lovie wasn't made between yesterday afternoon and today. It was made a while ago. Yesterday's final results just confirmed GM Emery's decision. Had that wimp Angelo still been the GM (he was fired at the end of last season, thank God), Lovie would still be the coach.

While it was no surprise that Lovie was fired, my brother and I were surprised it was that *soon*. Regardless, Lovie's getting fired today says a lot--all positive--about the Bears' management, especially their GM. Kudos to him and the Bears for getting rid of a mediocre coach.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

No surprise with the Bears - gotta say the Chicago fans are loyal to the bitter end.

Lovie Smith has been a miserable failure, yet many Chicagoans (including most of my in-laws from Chicago and 2 close friends) thought he should be kept. I've heard the talk now for almost a decade.

Woulda-shoulda-coulda.

When he came to Chicago 9 years ago, Lovie Smith publicly made a big deal proclamation that it was his #1 priority to beat division rival Green Bay. It was the talk of the town.

He made it clear that the NFC North title and road to the Super Bowl for the Bears ran through Green Bay - so beating the Packers was the yardstick of his success. 

Despite the Bears spending record amounts of getting Cutler and other new players, as well as good money for others to stay with the team, over the past 5 years against the Packers, Lovie Smith's teams were 2-9 against and 0-6 in the most recent years.

No surprise he was canned.


----------



## Lord Vader

I'll never forgive him--NEVER--for rolling over and letting the Packers win that final game of the 2010 season. It was January 2, 2011. If the Bears beat the Packers, their arch-rivals, they eliminate them from post-season contention. Lovie decided that because his team had the playoffs wrapped up, he'd rest most of his starters and not worry about the outcome of the game. He even commented that a win was not as important as resting his players for the upcoming playoffs.

Well, because of his *stupid *decision, the Packers won, got into the playoffs, and promptly embarrassed the Bears in the NFC Championship. The Pack then went on to win the Super Bowl over my Steelers. Because of this, I never have forgiven Lovie. His decision came back to bite him in the ass, and I've wished a slow death for him since that time.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Apologies for not spelling Lovie correctly earlier... I fell pray to the spell-correct and went with it...

Meanwhile... I don't have a problem with them firing him... he has had quite a while at the helm, and he was the head coach.

My hedge was mainly because the defense has generally been strong and that is his forte... and the failures have been on the offense, usually the line lately... and I don't know how much say Lovie has had in the hiring of offensive coordinators. IF those decisions were his calls, then I would retract my hedge on blaming him for the failures.

To counter that... with the Jets... Rex Ryan is similarly supposed to be a defensive guru, so you might expect offense problems like they have... but their defense has fizzled as well... so if you ask me to justify keeping Rex Ryan, I really can't.

IF Ryan had been fired, I wouldn't have a problem with that either... same reasoning... he's the guy in charge, and the team has been failing.

All other things being equal, though... I think Chicago has way more good pieces on the team than the Jets... so I'm not sure the Jets would have had a good line on a replacement IF they had parted with Ryan... while I think Chicago has not only a rich history but also a lot of current talent on the roster... so Chicago should be able to bring in someone that can hit the ground running and have them a contender next year.


----------



## Lord Vader

Lovie was the person who hired the OC's. They were his call completely. 

The defense is aged and not as good as many believe. It's time they rebuild it, and that includes saying good-bye to Urlacher and others. On offense, Hester's days with the Bears are hopefully over. He was a decent kick returner, but nothing more. He was a horrible receiver. 

They have not had even a halfway decent offensive line in years. 

This team needs some major work done.


----------



## hilmar2k

Hoosier205;3153586 said:


> Ryan wasn't the problem. The GM had to go however.


He was, and will apparently continue to be, the problem. He has no idea what he is doing, or how to run a team. He is a complete joke......and I'm thrilled he will be back at it again next year.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stewart Vernon said:


> Apologies for not spelling Lovie correctly earlier... I fell pray to the spell-correct and went with it...
> 
> Meanwhile... I don't have a problem with them firing him... he has had quite a while at the helm, and *he was the head coach*.


What was perhaps even more of a Bears fan letdown in Chicago is that they basically had 3 Head Coaches....Lovie Smith, the former Vikings Head Coach, and the Former Lions Head Coach.

All that knowledge and experience and still look at the results. I suspect that's why they brought in the new GM when they did. It also points to why getting a "name" coach guarantees little, and re-cycling coaches often fails.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

As a Packers fan, I am very sad to see Lovie go. I wish the Packers would have won that Vikings game, it may have saved Lovie's job for another year.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Scott Kocourek said:


> As a Packers fan, I am very sad to see Lovie go. I wish the Packers would have won that Vikings game, it may have saved Lovie's job for another year.


Yeah....that's a good point. Ir was nice having those predictable 2 wins against the Bears on the schedule each year. :lol:


----------



## Stewart Vernon

The Packers should have beaten Minnesota so they didn't have to face Adrian Peterson again!

I don't think Green Bay wants any part of him right now... I honestly think Minnesota may very well literally run over Green Bay this weekend.


----------



## Lord Vader

At Green Bay? In the cold? I doubt it. Nothing would please me more to see those sanctimonious cheeseheads get their asses handed to them on a platter, but I don't expect that to happen.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> At Green Bay? In the cold? I doubt it. Nothing would please me more to see those sanctimonious cheeseheads get their asses handed to them on a platter, but I don't expect that to happen.


You might need to lend your Darth Vader suit to those crazy Minnesota Vikings fans. What do they know. Not one championship - ever. Nothing will change this year.


----------



## Laxguy

I am very grateful to the Vikes and in fact the Pack.... they gave my Niners a chance to heal with a bye week. 

But should be a great game this weekend.....


----------



## Lord Vader

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You might need to lend your Darth Vader suit to those crazy Minnesota Vikings fans. What do they know. Not one championship - ever. Nothing will change this year.


They won't go far this year, either, but it's not just because they're playing Green Bay first.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Don't get me wrong... I think Minnesota will lose the following week... but I'm not going to be surprised at all to see them win this week.

The "can't beat Green Bay at home in the playoffs or cold" legend was broken several years ago... and Minnesota is built to win in that environment anyway, with their 1-man wrecking crew Peterson.

Minnesota is by no means a great team... but he has ran for 200 yards against Green Bay in both games this season... unless Green Bay fixes something they haven't been able to fix all year in one week, I expect more of the same.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alot of dust has collected on this...


----------



## Lord Vader

Stewart, Green Bay has all their injured regulars back. That's not good for Minnesota.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

I'm actually looking forward to Seahawks - Redskins game.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

JACKIEGAGA said:


> I'm actually looking forward to Seahawks - Redskins game.


While I don't really follow either of those teams...yes...that should be a good one. I'll be rooting for the Redskins, as the Seahawks are only in the playoffs because of the historically bad replacement ref calls early in the season.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Lord Vader said:


> Stewart, Green Bay has all their injured regulars back. That's not good for Minnesota.


Let us be fair... When they played the first game this year, Packers won 23-14... prior to that game the team records were:

Packers 7-4
Vikings 6-5

Had the Vikings won that close game at the time... they would have had identical 7-5 records... Ponder had an arguably bad game and Minnesota was missing injured players too in that game.

I like the Packers... and I'll root for them... but honestly, I'm picking Minnesota to win the re-rematch just as they did this week.



JACKIEGAGA said:


> I'm actually looking forward to Seahawks - Redskins game.


Me too. Could possibly be the best game of the entire playoffs, but definitely the best of this weekend. I'm torn.

I like RGIII, but don't like coach Shanahan... I like Russel Wilson, but don't like coach Carrol...

My gut says RGIII is the better QB, but that Seattle has the better rest-of-team.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> While I don't really follow either of those teams...yes...that should be a good one. I'll be rooting for the Redskins, as the Seahawks are only in the playoffs because of the historically bad replacement ref calls early in the season.


Are you sure?

I don't mean about the game error... 100% right on that one... Seattle should have lost that game... but then they would be 10-6 instead of 11-5.

Wouldn't Seattle still be in the playoffs at 10-6? Or would they have lost the tie-breaker with Chicago as a result? That's something I have not dug into.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't mean about the game error... 100% right on that one... Seattle should have lost that game... but then they would be 10-6 instead of 11-5.
> 
> Wouldn't Seattle still be in the playoffs at 10-6? Or would they have lost the tie-breaker with Chicago as a result? That's something I have not dug into.


I believe Chicago would have gotten in instead...so in that context, go Seattle.


----------



## Laxguy

I hope the 'Skins do to the Seahawks what they did to the Niners two weeks ago. Then we'll see how Kaepernick and RG fare on the same field. I'm also not at all a fan of Pete Carroll—nor Shanahan for that matter.


----------



## Lord Vader

Ha! Vikings are toast. Ponder ruled inactive for today's game. 

(Not that that would've mattered. Green Bay would have beaten them anyway.)


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Lord Vader said:


> Ha! Vikings are toast. Ponder ruled inactive for today's game.
> 
> (Not that that would've mattered. Green Bay would have beaten them anyway.)


Oh ye of little faith...


----------



## Lord Vader

Nothing would please me more than to see the Packers getting beat, but I don't think they will.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> Nothing would please me more than to see the Packers getting beat, but I don't think they will.


Looks like you're going to be disappointed.

Then again, some of us will be quite pleased with a Packers win.


----------



## Lord Vader

Packers ain't going anywhere. They will probably win today, but they're not good enough to win the Super Bowl.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The good guys won. 

Bring on the 49ers. If they win that game somehow (and it will be very tough - SF is a great team), then they're the NFC favorites at that point.

Last time these circumstances were in place (players coming back from injuries for the playoffs)...the hoisted the Lombardi.


----------



## Laxguy

We are almost ready.... for that game at the 'Stick, thank Heavens it's not at Lambeau, nor St.Louis, nor..... Should be a fine matchup. May the luckier team win!


----------



## Hoosier205

The Saints got the season they deserved (well 0-16 would have been better), the Colts performed far better than expected, and Peyton Manning excelled. I'm happy no matter how this ends.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

Scott Kocourek said:


> Beginning of the season prediction:
> 
> Packers win the Superbowl!!!


One step closer!!


----------



## Laxguy

Scott Kocourek said:


> One step closer!!


But the biggest step comes right after CES! If they win that, I will be rooting for them. Until, then...... watch out for the Smith Brothers.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Laxguy said:


> But the biggest step comes right after CES! If they win that, I will be rooting for them. Until, then...... watch out for the Smith Brothers.


Yeah...I'll root for the winner of next week's game to go all the way no matter who it is...once the Packers...uh...one of those two teams win.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

This year has been really hard to predict... teams show up one weekend and are flat the next.

By all rights, Atlanta could either be flat and get steamrolled next weekend OR they will go lights-out and be a Superbowl shoe-in from the NFC.

It's just tough to pick.


----------



## Laxguy

If the Panthers aren't in the running, do most Carolinians turn N to the Ravens, or S to the Falcons? 

GO NINERS!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Yesterday's late game was quite interesting and somewhat entertaining.

Shame about RG3 though...that was an ugly ending injury. Has he stayed healthy...I suspect the game would have ended with a different result.

On we go to next week...the group of survivors is now a much smaller list. Let's see if the bye-week "resting" teams remember how to play football this coming week.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Laxguy said:


> If the Panthers aren't in the running, do most Carolinians turn N to the Ravens, or S to the Falcons?
> 
> GO NINERS!


Before the Panthers... it seemed to me like most "native" NC residents had adopted Washington as their "home" team... I can only assume that before the Colts left Baltimore that they might have had fans in NC too.

I can't say I know any Ravens fans... though it would make sense... and I think probably Atlanta is too close and NC would probably rather adopt a team from a state farther away when the Panthers are bad.

Personally... I tend to go where I like the players, once the Panthers are out of the running.

I like Russel Wilson, also like RGIII, so that was a win-win game for me either way... except of course I didn't wish further injury on RGIII.

I was rooting for the Packers even though I picked them to lose. In the pick-em game I had to start picking underdogs this weekend to gain ground... it didn't work, but was the only way I had to gain points.


----------



## hilmar2k

Laxguy said:


> If the Panthers aren't in the running, do most Carolinians turn N to the Ravens, or S to the Falcons?
> 
> GO NINERS!


I would think that fans would adopt a non-division team once theirs is out. There's not a snowball's chance in Hell I'd ever root for the Jets if by some miracle they were still alive in the playoffs and the Patriots weren't. I usually choose a team from the other conference to root for. Of course, being a Patriots fans, that situation doesn't come up as often for me lately as it does for fans of other teams.


----------



## renbutler

hilmar2k said:


> I would think that fans would adopt a non-division team once theirs is out. There's not a snowball's chance in Hell I'd ever root for the Jets if by some miracle they were still alive in the playoffs and the Patriots weren't.


Well, by chance, it happened just two years ago after the Jets knocked out the Patriots, in Foxborough.

Quite a "miracle" there...


----------



## I WANT MORE

Horrible stuttering on WCBS for Baltimore Denver game.


----------



## Laxguy

Not a shudder, stutter or artefact from KPIX, Ch. five, the SF CBS affiliate. So far.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

What a Denver choke, at least it was a good game.


----------



## yosoyellobo

That is why I hate prevent defense.


----------



## yosoyellobo

Del Rio use to lost game after game with that defense in Jacksonville.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

yosoyellobo said:


> That is why I hate prevent defense.


Prevents you from winning :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

yosoyellobo said:


> Del Rio use to lost game after game with that defense in Jacksonville.


----------



## yosoyellobo

Lord Vader said:


>


You hold a team to 13, 14 points and take a late lead with little time left and then you drop back and watch the other team match down the field after being held all day. One reason I stop going to their games.


----------



## Lord Vader

I don't know how you translated that out of your original post.


----------



## yosoyellobo

I was just piss off that Denver lost a game that they had in their pocket.


----------



## Hoosier205

"yosoyellobo" said:


> I was just piss off that Denver lost a game that they had in their pocket.


....drinking are we?


----------



## yosoyellobo

Hoosier205 said:


> ....drinking are we?


I wish. Gave it up years ago.I am just a sore looser.


----------



## Lord Vader

Is that better than being a sore "tighter"?


----------



## yosoyellobo

I got use to the spell checker. Now I need something to correct my grammar. You would think that with four years of summer high school English I would get it right.


----------



## Sixto

Man, if I was a broncos fan I would be depressed for a long time. It was over. They had it.

49ers/Packer exciting as well. 

Much better then last weekend.


----------



## yosoyellobo

Sixto said:


> Man, if I was a broncos fan I would be depressed for a long time. It was over. They had it.


I was only rooting for Denver because I still hate Baltimore for what they did to the giant.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Congrats to the 49ers on their win.


----------



## Davenlr

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Congrats to the 49ers on their win.


Begrudgingly +1. Green Bay just didnt show up to play.


----------



## Lord Vader

Green Bay won last week, as I predicted they would, mainly because the Vikings weren't that good. Green Bay lost today because THEY weren't that good. They were a rather unimpressive team this year. 

Dear, Green Bay, buh-bye!


----------



## Laxguy

yosoyellobo said:


> I wish. Gave it up years ago.I am just a sore looser.


[Nick] loser, not looser!! [/Nick]


----------



## Laxguy

Actually, the best played game of all the playoffs. Green Bay played very well; the Niners were lights out. Mistakes were few and far between, but very costly when they occurred. 

Aaron Rogers and his teammates are class acts, and terrific players (D'Oh! on the last comment.)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lord Vader said:


> Green Bay lost today because THEY weren't that good. *They were a rather unimpressive team this year*.


Yeah...uh huh....winning 12 games just isn't impressive...get real... 

I call sour grapes for someone else's team that's already watching the playoffs on TV,

It was the 49er's night. Simple as that.

We could talk until next year about the 2 holding calls missed on Crabteee on both of the 2 long runs for the 49ers QB that decided the game...just replayed those on the DVR a few times and 4 others here wondered how the refs could have possibly missed those blatent penalties....but it won't change the outcome now.

So onward S.F. goes. Those are the results. Congrats to their fans.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Laxguy said:


> Actually, the best played game of all the playoffs. Green Bay played very well; the Niners were lights out. Mistakes were few and far between, but very costly when they occurred.
> 
> Aaron Rogers and his teammates are class acts, and terrific players (D'Oh! on the last comment.)


Yeah...one of the better games so far. The earlier game was amazing with the double OT as well.

Curious how things go tomorrow in those events.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

On a random note...

Isn't it interesting that two teams that made a point of talking about how bad Tim Tebow was at QB managed to do worse by not using him?

Denver was 13-3, yeah... but they lost their only playoff game. Last year with Tebow they were 1-1 in the playoffs.

Jets tanked the whole season and never gave Tebow a shot.

Before anyone jumps in and says 13-3 is better than 8-8... two things about that. Denver was 1-4 before Tebow took over last year... so he was 7-4 of that... maybe they could have been a 10 win team last year IF they hadn't had a strike and had given Tebow the whole show.

Also... I remember a 14-2 San Diego Charger team in the last 10 years that fired their coach for losing their only playoff game that year... The playoff is where you really make your coin.

FYI, I'm a Peyton Manning fan... just pointing out the irony of putting down how bad Tebow is and doing worse for not having him.


----------



## Davenlr

I cant believe they are trading talent like Tebow, or making him sit on the sidelines. Just stupid.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Laxguy congrats.


----------



## Steve

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Laxguy congrats.


Ditto.

Gonna root for a Harbaugh vs. Harbaugh championship game now.  That'd be the best story, IMHO.


----------



## zimm7778

Anyone know why Albert/Johnston/Siragusa aren't doing this Fox game today? They are (or were last I checked) the #2 broadcast crew.


----------



## Laxguy

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Laxguy congrats.


Well, thanks, (blushing); Coach Harbaugh used only three of the plays I sent him.


----------



## davidatl14

zimm7778 said:


> Anyone know why Albert/Johnston/Siragusa aren't doing this Fox game today? They are (or were last I checked) the #2 broadcast crew.


Fox Sports President was quoted as saying the Brenneman/Billick team warranted this assignment based on their in season work.

Wouldn't say who he considered #2 team from today forward. The usual stuff about liking both announce teams.

JMO, but give me today's team anytime.

Like all four of the principals but a slight nod to the TommyB/Billick team.

The other team gets demerits for the mere presence of Siragusa.


----------



## zimm7778

Ok, thanks. I like Brenneman. Billick not so much.


----------



## Steve

Carroll's time out at the end gave Bryant a practice shot. Unbelievable finish.

IMO, Carroll looked foolish asking "who called it?". Cameras caught him.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

If they only wouldn't have called that time out.


----------



## Sixto

He needed that timeout in the last 6 seconds. May have gotten closer.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> He needed that timeout in the last 6 seconds. May have gotten closer.


Good point. Or if he didn't take it, Bryant might have made the same wide first kick, with no chance to recalibrate. Either way, it hurt him.


----------



## Davenlr

One of the better games I have seen in a long time.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

zimm7778 said:


> Ok, thanks. I like Brenneman. Billick not so much.


Billick stinks. Another good game.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> He needed that timeout in the last 6 seconds. May have gotten closer.


I'm talking about the one he called right before the first FG attempt that went wide, if he didn't call it they would have won.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

TheRatPatrol said:


> I'm talking about the one he called right before the first FG attempt that went wide, if he didn't call it they would have won.


I don't think you can say that. Everybody heard the whistle clearly before the kick... you could tell he didn't really try.

He really just did a practice kick that probably didn't help him at all.

In all likelihood, he probably makes that kick 9 out of 10 times or better.

Seattle lost by allowing those big gains in short times to get close enough to kick it. They also made it tough by being down 20 to nothing or so before starting their comeback.


----------



## jimmie57

Davenlr said:


> One of the better games I have seen in a long time.


Yep, that was a good one.


----------



## Steve

TheRatPatrol said:


> I'm talking about the one he called right before the first FG attempt that went wide, if he didn't call it they would have won.


True. Carroll also should have thought about the fact before the kick that if Bryant did make the first one, Seattle still needed that time out, with only 8 seconds left.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Davenlr said:


> One of the better games I have seen in a long time.


It sure was one of the better ones so far in these playoffs.


----------



## kikkenit2

Steve said:


> True. Carroll also should have thought about the fact before the kick that if Bryant did make the first one, Seattle still needed that time out, with only 8 seconds left.


I just finished watching the game. And yes I had read too far earlier about the ending. 
So I watched imtently about what was controversial (while skipping commercials).

Pete Carroll did call a time out before the field goal try. But that was their first time out used in the second half. 
The graphic at upper left screen clearly shows that. It was Atlanta that was out of time outs. The kicker clearly knew the kick didn't count. 
Calling time out right before the kick is stupid and annoying. Maybe now that fad will end for good. A waste of time coach.

At that point Seattle was asking for a delay of game penalty for 5 yards. Probably should have. 
Didn't matter. Long and down the middle. The real issue is the last 9 seconds. 
Billick is boasting Seattle is out of time outs and has to use the sideline. 
No they didn't. A quick 20 yards down the middle to the tight end and an immediate time out would leave 1 or 2 seconds. 
Then a game winning field goal. Lynch catching and running out of bounds was to short and left only 2 seconds for a long hail mary. 
And Seattle had 2 timeouts left when the game ended.

Billick then screwed up again right after the game and said Seattle was playing next week. 
Retire dude. You mislead everybody watching based on the comments here. 
Well my Niners are banged up and don't like turf, but most experts picked Green Bay this week. 
Still 4-2 playoff record in their favor. Not this year. Go back to that 20 below winter in Wisconsin.:sure:


----------



## Lord Vader

Is this the same Billick who after the game said, "This solidifies Seattle as the legitimate #1 seed"?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Soon there will be a new term...

Billicking - When the game you describe is substantially different than the one that actually happened... ex. "Seattle is solidly the #1 team" when said after Seattle has just lost to the actual #1 seed.


----------



## HinterXGames

Woot, go go Patriots. Time for a rematch of the AFC Championship. On the other side of news, if your going to talk trash, at least be someone people know on your own team. From ESPNBoston.com:
--
New England does some suspect stuff on offense. Can't really respect it. Comparable to a cheap shot b4 a fight

— Brendon Ayanbadejo (@brendon310) January 13, 2013


The war of words between the Baltimore Ravens and New England Patriots already is under way. 

While New England was in the process of defeating the Houston Texans on Sunday to set up an AFC Championship Game rematch with Baltimore, Ravens linebacker Brendon Ayanbadejo ripped the Patriots on Twitter, particularly criticizing their no-huddle offense. 

"New England does some suspect stuff on offense. Can't really respect it. Comparable to a cheap shot b4 a fight," Ayanbadejo tweeted on his account, @brendon310. 

Ayanbadejo will get an opportunity to see New England's offense in person next weekend when the Ravens visit the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game for the second consecutive season. New England won last year's meeting, 23-20, thanks to a missed field goal by Baltimore's Billy Cundiff as time expired. 

The Patriots gained 457 yards of total offense in Sunday's 41-28 victory over the Texans, as Tom Brady passed for 344 yards while orchestrating a hurry-up offense that confounded Houston throughout the contest. 

But Ayanbadejo was unimpressed, referring to the Patriots' approach as "a gimmick." 

"Are you watching the game pats vs texans?," Ayanbadejo tweeted. "If so you see the hurry snap offense catch em b4 they set up. It's a gimmick." 

"Their offense is good enough to be successful with out that," he later tweeted. 

Ayanbadejo proceeded to make a critical references to the Spygate scandal and Patriots coach Bill Belichick's decision to cut wide receiver Tiquan Underwood one day before Super Bowl XLVI. 

"You know the same organization that did spygate and cut a guy the day b4 the Super Bowl," he tweeted. 

Ayanbadejo also referred to the Patriots' 2007 season, when they completed the only 16-0 regular season in NFL history but lost to the New York Giants in Super Bowl XLII. 

"18-1," he tweeted. 

The Ravens rallied past the Patriots for a 31-30 victory in Week 3 this season. Ayanbadejo, who did not record a tackle in that contest, posted several tweets stating that he "Can't Wait!" for the latest rematch between the rivals. 

Ayanbadejo also reiterated his distaste for New England's hurry-up offense, asserting that there is no place for it "in a sport that is predicated on mano y mano."
--
Since when is the hurry up offense (which has been in football many years now) a gimmick >.> Don't be mad because your defense is fail at reacting. Why does it always seem the Ravens constantly whine about something not being 'fair'.


----------



## djlong

If your defense falls apart because you don't have enough time for your committee meetings, even though you have in-helmet radios, you deserve to lose.

Remember, the offense has just as much opportunity to screw up in the hurry-up as the defense does.


----------



## HinterXGames

djlong said:


> If your defense falls apart because you don't have enough time for your committee meetings, even though you have in-helmet radios, you deserve to lose.
> 
> Remember, the offense has just as much opportunity to screw up in the hurry-up as the defense does.


Well said, sir, and it has been covered by many analyst this season the hard work and precision that goes into the Patriots hurry up, to do it as quickly and effeciently as they do. The plays ran count in some games this year when doing it were eye-popping.


----------



## Lord Vader

Nice to see the most crooked team in NFL history losing to the Ravens. Hopefully the score will keep up and we can say good-bye to Bill Belicheat and the Patriots.


----------



## djlong

Most crooked team in NFL history? Umm.. Who was the 2nd most penalized team this year? That would be the Ravens. Who has the record for most penalties in a season? I believe that's the Raiders a few years ago.

Name me one Patriot who's been arrested on rape charges, or killed their girlfriend, or killed a teammate while driving drunk, or shot themselves in the leg while brandishing a loaded gun in a club.

If your measure of "most crooked" is the act of recording, on videotape, something that is normally done with a clipboard, notebook and pencil, well, that certainly says something.


----------



## Lord Vader

The truth hurts. Deal with it. New England is the most corrupt team in the league. Everybody and their grandmother knows they cheat. 

Stop dodging the issue by trying to bring up non-football, off the field stuff about which no one cares.


----------



## Hoosier205

djlong;3166071 said:


> Most crooked team in NFL history? Umm.. Who was the 2nd most penalized team this year? That would be the Ravens. Who has the record for most penalties in a season? I believe that's the Raiders a few years ago.
> 
> Name me one Patriot who's been arrested on rape charges, or killed their girlfriend, or killed a teammate while driving drunk, or shot themselves in the leg while brandishing a loaded gun in a club.
> 
> If your measure of "most crooked" is the act of recording, on videotape, something that is normally done with a clipboard, notebook and pencil, well, that certainly says something.


Since when do penalties equal crooked? What are you talking about? Cheating = crooked.


----------



## Lord Vader

Exactly! He's just trying to play dodge ball with what everyone knows is the sad truth.


----------



## RACJ2

Lord Vader said:


> Nice to see the most crooked team in NFL history losing to the Ravens. Hopefully the score will keep up and we can say good-bye to Bill Belicheat and the Patriots.


Not sure about that, but Belichick sure is a poor sport. Refuses an interview on the post game show? Maybe he didn't want us to see him and Tom crying in the locker room?

He snubbed CBS, but at least he did actual show up for the NFL post game press conference to say they were just outplayed [link]


----------



## sigma1914

Twice this week I agree with LV.


----------



## Lord Vader

RACJ2;3166083 said:


> Not sure about that, but Belichick sure is a poor sport. Refuses an interview on the post game show? Maybe he didn't want us to see him and Tom crying in the locker room?


Belicheat is a scumbag and an all around grump. I caught snippets of his post-game comments. I heard him complaining about officials' calls. Yup. That was the difference.


----------



## Lord Vader

sigma1914;3166087 said:


> Twice this week I agree with LV.


Stop the presses!

What's next? Cubs win the World Series? Next thing you'll be telling us is that it's going to snow in Alabama.


----------



## spartanstew

Well, the playoffs haven't been fun for me and the worst possible outcome has come to fruition.

I've had the displeasure of meeting Jim Harbaugh on a couple of occasions (back in the 80's) and he was just a real jerk. The typical bully jock that you see portrayed in movies who thinks he's better than everyone else. Not a fan to say the least.

And the Ravens? I've been sick of Ray Lewis for years, not to mention he escaped prosecution early on when someone was murdered and everyone seems to have forgotten that. The Media eats him up and I don't understand why. He's a thug and a drama queen.

Oh well, it is what it is, but it's certainly not enjoyable watching a Super Bowl when I hope both teams lose.


----------



## Lord Vader

That's why the Pittsburgh Steelers, the epitome of a classy football franchise and one rich with tradition, should be the AFC representative. Ah, well, there's next year when they will take their rightful place at the top of the NFL.


----------



## Hoosier205

spartanstew;3166094 said:


> Well, the playoffs haven't been fun for me and the worst possible outcome has come to fruition.
> 
> I've had the displeasure of meeting Jim Harbaugh on a couple of occasions (back in the 80's) and he was just a real jerk. The typical bully jock that you see portrayed in movies who thinks he's better than everyone else. Not a fan to say the least.
> 
> And the Ravens? I've been sick of Ray Lewis for years, not to mention he escaped prosecution early on when someone was murdered and everyone seems to have forgotten that. The Media eats him up and I don't understand why. He's a thug and a drama queen.
> 
> Oh well, it is what it is, but it's certainly not enjoyable watching a Super Bowl when I hope both teams lose.


Wow, a couple of encounters about 30 years ago. Sounds like a solid foundation for a character critique. Maybe not...

Sounds more like someone who was jealous of the jocks in high school and still holds a grudge.


----------



## spartanstew

LOL, no, I was a jock in high school too in that I played sports (and in college). But I was a bit more well rounded than "jocks" and wasn't a ******** to everyone I met. There's a difference. Either way, I'm not going to justify my reasons for disliking someone to you. He was a jerk then and from what I've seen the last few years is still a jerk. Maybe not, but that's the impression I get.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

No skin in the game... but I picked both games correctly. I thought the blowout would have been the 49ers game, though... I thought the Ravens/Patriots game would have gone down to the end.

Oh well... I have no real rooting interest, but will hope for a competitive game in 2 weeks.


----------



## Laxguy

Just had to post, but not about the games. About the lack of sportsmanship.... among a few of our contributors. Wow.


----------



## Lord Vader

This is the NFL, a thread for MEN! If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen and let us real men continue. :box:

This isn't a thread for the feint of heart, bucko! 

Dang lacrosse people. They're such wimps. !Devil_lol


----------



## djlong

Hoosier205 said:


> Since when do penalties equal crooked? What are you talking about? Cheating = crooked.


Yes. And when you're 'holding' you're cheating. When you jump offsides or do a chop block, you're cheating. When you take unauthorized drugs you are cheating.

When you are caught cheating, you are assessed a penalty. The NFL determined that recording some practices were cheating and the Patriots paid the penalty.

Now, I grant you, I didn't see the post-game but it's not hard to believe Belichik being grumpy. I would be too if my best receiver dropped a crucial 3rd down conversion that was in his hands.. If another 3rd down conversion was called back due to a STUPID holding call (the call was correct, the holding was stupid). Yeah, I'd be grumpy. I'd LIKE to think I could handle myself better but Bill DOES have a history of this.

LV - for all your angst against the Patriots, you really do sound like the local Red Sox fans and the way they complain about the Yankees.

And the Steelers? Yeah, rich football tradition - I won't argue there. But THEY should be the AFC reps? Ummm... You have to play the games... When their TEAM returns to the level of play that is their TRADITION... ...they'll be in 14th place overall. They have a .523 winning percentage. They're behind, in order, the Bears, Cowboys, Dolphins, Packers, 49ers, Ravens, Giants, Vikings, Raiders, Browns, Patriots, Broncos and Colts.

Although, to be kind, they're tied for 4th (with the Packers and Rams) in playoff appearances with 27 (behind the Giant's 31, the Cowboy's 30 and the Browns' 28.

They're 5th in NFL/Super Bowl championships with 6, behind the Packers (13), Bears (9), Giants (8) and Browns (8).

...just to interject a few facts amongst the feelings here


----------



## Hoosier205

djlong;3166185 said:


> Yes. And when you're 'holding' you're cheating. When you jump offsides or do a chop block, you're cheating. When you take unauthorized drugs you are cheating.
> 
> When you are caught cheating, you are assessed a penalty. The NFL determined that recording some practices were cheating and the Patriots paid the penalty.
> 
> Now, I grant you, I didn't see the post-game but it's not hard to believe Belichik being grumpy. I would be too if my best receiver dropped a crucial 3rd down conversion that was in his hands.. If another 3rd down conversion was called back due to a STUPID holding call (the call was correct, the holding was stupid). Yeah, I'd be grumpy. I'd LIKE to think I could handle myself better but Bill DOES have a history of this.
> 
> LV - for all your angst against the Patriots, you really do sound like the local Red Sox fans and the way they complain about the Yankees.
> 
> And the Steelers? Yeah, rich football tradition - I won't argue there. But THEY should be the AFC reps? Ummm... You have to play the games... When their TEAM returns to the level of play that is their TRADITION... ...they'll be in 14th place overall. They have a .523 winning percentage. They're behind, in order, the Bears, Cowboys, Dolphins, Packers, 49ers, Ravens, Giants, Vikings, Raiders, Browns, Patriots, Broncos and Colts.
> 
> Although, to be kind, they're tied for 4th (with the Packers and Rams) in playoff appearances with 27 (behind the Giant's 31, the Cowboy's 30 and the Browns' 28.
> 
> They're 5th in NFL/Super Bowl championships with 6, behind the Packers (13), Bears (9), Giants (8) and Browns (8).
> 
> ...just to interject a few facts amongst the feelings here


You're acting like a sore loser.


----------



## Laxguy

Lord Vader said:


> This is the NFL, a thread for MEN! If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen and let us real men continue. :box:
> 
> This isn't a thread for the feint of heart, bucko!


Nor for the faint of heart....

"Real men" are good sports.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Congrats Laxguy


----------



## Steve

Shannon Sharpe sure gave it to Belichick last night:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sport...harpe-bill-belichick-20130121,0,6901911.story


----------



## Laxguy

Thanks, Jack. You're the other end of the spectrum of good sportsmanship! 

But Harbaugh did not use any of the plays I sent him!


----------



## Laxguy

Steve said:


> Shannon Sharpe sure gave it to Belichick last night:
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/sports/sport...harpe-bill-belichick-20130121,0,6901911.story


Oh, darn! I was hoping for a barn burner, but I guess Sharpe wants to keep his job. Good catch!


----------



## Lord Vader

djlong said:


> Yes. And when you're 'holding' you're cheating. When you jump offsides or do a chop block, you're cheating.


That's pure nonsense. Cheating is an intentional attempt to be dishonest and get around the rules. It's immoral. Grabbing someone's jersey or accidentally crossing a line of scrimmage prematurely are rarely intentional and certainly not immoral.

What a horrible analogy.


----------



## chevyguy559

Can't wait for Super Bowl Sunday! Its been a long time since I've actually cared about the game instead of the commercials for the Super Bowl! :lol: GO NINERS!!!!


----------



## joshjr

chevyguy559 said:


> Can't wait for Super Bowl Sunday! Its been a long time since I've actually cared about the game instead of the commercials for the Super Bowl! :lol: GO NINERS!!!!


I was thinking the opposite, been a long time since I really didnt care about who won the game. I guess as long as it aint the 9ers I will be happy lol.


----------



## spartanstew

I'll reluctantly be rooting for the 49ers.


----------



## Steve

I'm an NFC fan, but I have a feeling the Ravens are going to dominate this game. Just my .02.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

spartanstew said:


> I'll reluctantly be rooting for the 49ers.


Yep, I'll be rooting for the 49ers too.


----------



## boukengreen

i think the ravens are gonna win this on they have been a different team since ray lewis returned and they changed oc's


----------



## chevyguy559

boukengreen said:


> i think the ravens are gonna win this on they have been a different team since ray lewis returned and they changed oc's


Speaking of Ray Lewis....is anyone else kind of sick and tired of all the attention he's been getting and all his crying and "dancing" :lol: not to mention everyone is so quick to forget how he was involved somehow in a murder....I mean he's a great player, can't take that away from him, but quit crying on TV and quit doing snow angels in the turf :lol:

IMO the way Tony Gonzalez went out was WAY classier....


----------



## Hoosier205

chevyguy559;3166695 said:


> Speaking of Ray Lewis....is anyone else kind of sick and tired of all the attention he's been getting and all his crying and "dancing" :lol: not to mention everyone is so quick to forget how he was involved somehow in a murder....I mean he's a great player, can't take that away from him, but quit crying on TV and quit doing snow angels in the turf :lol:
> 
> IMO the way Tony Gonzalez went out was WAY classier....


+1


----------



## bidger

+2.


----------



## djlong

Hoosier205 said:


> You're acting like a sore loser.


A sore loser would be whining about the Patriots not being in the Super Bowl.

Fact: The Patriots lost. The way they played, they had no business being in the Super Bowl. I'm a fan of the team, but I don't turn a blind eye to what I saw. The Patriots had 3 chances to keep good drives going that were blown - one was the tipped ball that the Ravens intercepted. At best, the Pats had a 50/50 chance at that ball (you never know where a tip will go) and were still 2 scores behind when it happened.

The other two were just plain bad plays. Welker's uncharacteristic drop and that holding call (and again, the call was right, it was the hold that was stupid).

The Ravens played well enough to get ahead of the Pats and keep them down. I don't have to like them to congratulate them.


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## djlong

Lord Vader said:


> That's pure nonsense. Cheating is an intentional attempt to be dishonest and get around the rules. It's immoral. Grabbing someone's jersey or accidentally crossing a line of scrimmage prematurely are rarely intentional and certainly not immoral.
> 
> What a horrible analogy.


Jumping offsides is an intentional attempt to "time" the snap and get an unfair advantage. Most pass interference calls are an attempt to illegally prevent someone form having a fair chance at the ball.

Sure, some penalties are accidental - but you ask ANY football player and they'll tell you they work to push the envelope on the rules as much as possible. Some penalties are GOOD penalties in that they prevent the other team from scoring (take the 15-yards instead of the 6 points)

There's an old saying in NASCAR that applies here - "if you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying".


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## djlong

chevyguy559 said:


> Speaking of Ray Lewis....is anyone else kind of sick and tired of all the attention he's been getting and all his crying and "dancing" :lol: not to mention everyone is so quick to forget how he was involved somehow in a murder....I mean he's a great player, can't take that away from him, but quit crying on TV and quit doing snow angels in the turf :lol:
> 
> IMO the way Tony Gonzalez went out was WAY classier....


+1 about Gonazalez.

To be honest, I'd *like* to believe that Ray Lewis is a changed man. He was the epitome of the 'thug' early in his career but people CAN change. Still - paying off that family and his missing white suit from the night of the murder will probably dog him for the rest of his life.


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## Hoosier205

djlong;3166834 said:


> Jumping offsides is an intentional attempt to "time" the snap and get an unfair advantage. Most pass interference calls are an attempt to illegally prevent someone form having a fair chance at the ball.
> 
> Sure, some penalties are accidental - but you ask ANY football player and they'll tell you they work to push the envelope on the rules as much as possible. Some penalties are GOOD penalties in that they prevent the other team from scoring (take the 15-yards instead of the 6 points)
> 
> There's an old saying in NASCAR that applies here - "if you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying".


Please go watch something like table tennis if you don't understand football.


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## djlong

Hoosier, go listen to any retired player talk about what they tried to get away with. I remember the days when players cheated in completely different ways - like hiding objects under bandages to hit other players harder. Cheating, like everything else, has evolved - certainly in the 40 years I've been watching football and other sports.

...or do you believe all those expressions of disbelief every time a player gets flagged for a penalty?


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## Hoosier205

djlong;3166984 said:
 

> Hoosier, go listen to any retired player talk about what they tried to get away with. I remember the days when players cheated in completely different ways - like hiding objects under bandages to hit other players harder. Cheating, like everything else, has evolved - certainly in the 40 years I've been watching football and other sports.
> 
> ...or do you believe all those expressions of disbelief every time a player gets flagged for a penalty?


You're acting like a sore loser. The cheaters lost. Move on.


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## Lord Vader

djlong said:


> Jumping offsides is an intentional attempt to "time" the snap and get an unfair advantage. Most pass interference calls are an attempt to illegally prevent someone form having a fair chance at the ball.
> 
> Sure, some penalties are accidental - but you ask ANY football player and they'll tell you they work to push the envelope on the rules as much as possible.


"Most" players who jump offside don't do it intentionally, and "most" players who commit pass interference do not do so intentionally. They'd be benched so fast their heads would spin.

Pushing the envelope is one thing, but what it's not is cheating. Cheating is a form of lying; it's immoral. In fact, it's contrary to the 8th Commandment's prohibition on being untruthful, deceptive. I have yet to see an NFL penalty rise to the level of being prohibited by any of the 10 Commandments.

"Thou shalt not commit pass interference."

I stand by my earlier assertion that your comparing NFL penalties to cheating was a poor and incorrect analogy.


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## Laxguy

spartanstew said:


> I'll reluctantly be rooting for the 49ers.


Don't bother: We have real fans. :eek2:


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## Hoosier205

Laxguy;3167095 said:


> Don't bother: We have real fans. :eek2:


I'm a Colts fan first. That also leads me to root for Jim Harbaugh as a former Colts QB though. I've tried to follow his entire coaching career since he retired.


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## Laxguy

Cheating in FB is intentionally grabbing a jersey, facemask, arm, etc. when you think you can get away with it, usually because you're screened from the Refs. Other forms less clear. If the punter falls down screaming like a soccer player because he was lightly brushed, I'd call that cheating; others wouldn't. 

Faking an injury to give your team time to regroup? That's also cheating. 

Offsides isn't cheating; it's a penalty. Usually a stupid one. 

Helmet to helmet contact- cheating? If intentional, it's almost homocidal; should be ejection. If unintentional, should be a 15 yarder. Intentionally harming an opponent is the worst sort of cheating.


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## spartanstew

Laxguy said:


> Don't bother: We have real fans. :eek2:


We?

Oh brother, you're one of those fans that actually thinks they're part of the team, eh?


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## Laxguy

spartanstew said:


> We?
> 
> Oh brother, you're one of those fans that actually thinks they're part of the team, eh?


?

It should be.... "thinks _he's_ part of the team"..... Note agreement of subject and verb.

And, no.


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## sigma1914

djlong said:


> Hoosier, go listen to any retired player talk about what they tried to get away with. I remember the days when players cheated in completely different ways - like hiding objects under bandages to hit other players harder. Cheating, like everything else, has evolved - certainly in the 40 years I've been watching football and other sports.
> 
> ...or do you believe all those expressions of disbelief every time a player gets flagged for a penalty?


Cheating... like when a QB slides and deliberately lifts his leg to attempt to injure the opposing team's star safety?


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## Lord Vader

Careful there! That's Tom Brady :angel: you're referring to there.


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## Stewart Vernon

I saw that live... and remembered the Suh situation where he kicked a guy in the groin and tried to explain that was "how you fall" in the NFL.

That leads to two possibilities:

1. Suh was right, and Brady confirmed that is how you fall... kicking up a foot in the air.

OR (more likely)

2. It was a conscious and dirty play.

FYI, I'm not jumping on the "Patriots are the dirtiest team ever" bandwagon... just nodding in agreement that this particular play didn't feel right when I watched it live.


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## spartanstew

Stewart Vernon said:


> I saw that live... and remembered the Suh situation where he kicked a guy in the groin and tried to explain that was "how you fall" in the NFL.
> 
> That leads to two possibilities:
> 
> 1. Suh was right, and Brady confirmed that is how you fall... kicking up a foot in the air.
> 
> OR (more likely)
> 
> 2. It was a conscious and dirty play.
> 
> FYI, I'm not jumping on the "Patriots are the dirtiest team ever" bandwagon... just nodding in agreement that this particular play didn't feel right when I watched it live.


Well, the two plays weren't really similar. Brady was looking right at him and put his leg up in a controlled slide. Suh hit a guy that was basically behind him while he was somersaulting.


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## Lord Vader

Brady doesn't seem to have a reputation of doing dirty things like that (but it doesn't mean he'd never do it, of course), while Suh has just such a reputation.


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## spartanstew

Lord Vader said:


> Brady doesn't seem to have a reputation of doing dirty things like that (but it doesn't mean he'd never do it, of course), while Suh has just such a reputation.


Quite true, but that doesn't mean that everything Suh does is deliberate/nasty and nothing that Brady does is.


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## Lord Vader

I agree. Keep in mind, however, that because of Suh's reputation, people are more likely to believe _*he'd*_ do something dirty than would Brady.

Fair or not, one's prior actions lead to these presumptions.


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## djlong

Yeah, I was wondering about that "leg lift slide" myself. The announcers at the time said that it might have been an attempt at protecting himself BUT that, more often than not, it injures the person DOING the sliding because it's exposed the leg and knee to all sorts of danger.


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## Stewart Vernon

Heard on ESPN not too long ago (today) that Ed Reed said Tom Brady had reached out to him and apologized.


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## Laxguy

djlong said:


> Yeah, I was wondering about that "leg lift slide" myself. The announcers at the time said that it might have been an attempt at protecting himself BUT that, more often than not, it injures the person DOING the sliding because it's exposed the leg and knee to all sorts of danger.


I'd also say it could be a natural reaction to a 250+ monster looking to collide with you- however dangerous an extended leg might be to both parties.....


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## redsoxfan26

Tom Brady reportedly fined $10,000 for slide.

http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports...3/report-brady-fined-10k-for-slide-into-reed/


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## Stewart Vernon

So...

Why no Pro Bowl Pick 'em?



Who ya got!



I say east/north beats west/south (or whatever they will be called)... and there will be several almost plays that nearly look like something you might see in a real football game.


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## Laxguy

Stewart Vernon said:


> So...
> 
> Why no Pro Bowl Pick 'em?
> 
> 
> 
> Who ya got!
> 
> 
> 
> I say east/north beats west/south (or whatever they will be called)... and there will be several almost plays that nearly look like something you might see in a real football game.


Cool- so we can FF to the next commercial???


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## Lord Vader

Story here

Not the Patriots, no! Shocking, I say! Shocking!!!

I heard Belicheat hired Lance Armstrong as "special advisor" to the team that year. :lol:

Meanwhile, more controversy. This was actually known a few weeks ago but officially announced today.

Several current NFL officials are claiming the NFL intentionally changed Boger's ratings to get them up to the #1 spot so he could be assigned the Super Bowl as referee.

I've seen him work, and personally, he never struck me as being *that *good.


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## Stewart Vernon

I don't know... Faulk says there were plays they had not ran before, and that the Patriots defended them too perfectly, as if they knew they were coming... but IF the Rams had not ran the plays in a game all season, maybe they didn't run the play to perfection themselves.

All told... I watched that game... and the Rams seemed to stop running the ball and using Faulk as they had previously... *that* is what lost them the game that year.

And to be fair... that same team went on to smaller and lesser things with Martz at the helm, and Martz hasn't done well at his other stops since then. I'm inclined to hold Martz to the fire for that.

The year before, they barely beat the Titans in the Super Bowl anyway... so while I loved me some "greatest show on turf" those years, they were not an invincible team as Faulk might want to remember them.


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## Sixto

Beyonce did good today. Great way to handle it, awesome.


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## coldsteel

Parcells finally in HOF

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8...s-warren-sapp-inducted-pro-football-hall-fame


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## Sixto

Yep, DirecTV Beach Bowl followed by HOF show, and the Super Bowl Saturday Night Show and Honors Show tonight.


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