# How will D* fire back?



## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

How will DirecTV fire back with the new Dish Network free HD DVR promo?

Yes, I know, nothing is free .

I ask the question because I have a friend that wants to switch from Dish to DirecTV but is struggling when Dish is offering a free HD upgrade w/ DVR.


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

Radio Enginerd said:


> How will DirecTV fire back with the new Dish Network free HD DVR promo?
> 
> Yes, I know, nothing is free .
> 
> I ask the question because I have a friend that wants to switch from Dish to DirecTV but is struggling when Dish is offering a free HD upgrade w/ DVR.


Good post, Dish Network is going to be offering the same quantity of HD programming that DirecTV is offering - 70 channels, and more too in the future. Go to their website, plus Dish Network had been advertising during World Series about the 70 HD channels.

I think the only disadvantage for Dish is not having many locals via satellite in comparison to DirecTV. However if the customer is near the local affiliates they can still get OTA with the VIP622.

Also the deal is you get credits per month to cover the free VIP622, you have to pay the $200 deposit, and Dish credits your statement per month similar to what DirecTV does.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Actually...

Dish has had "free" DVR since the start of the year... they announced it right around CES time.

I am curious which DVR of their lineup is the FREE one this time.

I was more intrested in the quick (about 1/3 of a second), jab at TiVo in that commercial.


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## WilliamC (Jun 18, 2006)

jtn said:


> Good post, Dish Network is going to be offering the same quantity of HD programming that DirecTV is offering - 70 channels, and more too in the future. Go to their website, plus Dish Network had been advertising during World Series about the 70 HD channels.
> 
> I think the only disadvantage for Dish is not having many locals via satellite in comparison to DirecTV. However if the customer is near the local affiliates they can still get OTA with the VIP622.


There also appears to be a PQ difference. The new MPEG-4 HD channels looks sharper on D* than the HD on Dish.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

WilliamC said:


> There also appears to be a PQ difference. The new MPEG-4 HD channels looks sharper on D* than the HD on Dish.


This can be simulated by turning up the contrast on your display. Of course you'll lose detail and dynamic range, but that's why they call it a proprietary compression scheme.


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## sean10780 (Oct 16, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually...
> 
> Dish has had "free" DVR since the start of the year... they announced it right around CES time.
> 
> ...


Before I signed up for Direct last week, I called up dish and they were going to offer the VIP722. I had dish about a year ago before switching to TWC for a year and both of those companies have terrible customer service. From what I have read throughout DBS direct seems to have the best of the 3.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

As to the OP question...

How is DirecTV going to fire back?

They probably are not.

DishNetwork is on their heels right now...

They are "changing" their definition of what counts as a national HD channel...
And will soon run out of HD channels to count, to top HD's count (with the same definitions).....

They are trying to get as many customers on what ever angle they can.
(And I am curious if anyone does switch if the free DVR comes with the 18 month commitment)


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

jtn said:


> Good post, Dish Network is going to be offering the same quantity of HD programming that DirecTV is offering - 70 channels, and more too in the future. Go to their website, plus Dish Network had been advertising during World Series about the 70 HD channels.
> 
> I think the only disadvantage for Dish is not having many locals via satellite in comparison to DirecTV. However if the customer is near the local affiliates they can still get OTA with the VIP622.


Agree... My friend is not "into this stuff like I am" and just looks at the offerings topically. Many consumers are just going to see the # of HD channels. If one company is offering something free over the other, they may or may not be swayed.

I'll echo what I've said in MANY posts. Content is KEY! I would NEVER choose Dish Network over DirecTV at this point. Rewind 14 months when I was in the process of switching and had Dish Network offered me a free HD DVR I might be stuck in a 2 year contract right now. I made a decision to switch to DirecTV based on what I knew of D10 and D11 and boy am I happy I did. I fear most consumers won't take the time to do research and will be swayed to upgrade to Dish.

I believe the DVR they're offering is the VIP722 but I could be mistaken.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I was more intrested in the quick (about 1/3 of a second), jab at TiVo in that commercial.


I noticed that too. It was subtle, but is was definitely there.


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

Radio Enginerd said:


> Agree... My friend is not "into this stuff like I am" and just looks at the offerings topically. Many consumers are just going to see the # of HD channels. If one company is offering something free over the other, they may or may not be swayed.
> 
> I'll echo what I've said in MANY posts. Content is KEY! I would NEVER choose Dish Network over DirecTV at this point. Rewind 14 months when I was in the process of switching and had Dish Network offered me a free HD DVR I might be stuck in a 2 year contract right now. I made a decision to switch to DirecTV based on what I knew of D10 and D11 and boy am I happy I did. I fear most consumers won't take the time to do research and will be swayed to upgrade to Dish.
> 
> I believe the DVR they're offering is the VIP722 but I could be mistaken.


More good points, and it probably is the VIP722. I chose to stay with DirecTV, I feel they in the end will have more, but I could be wrong. Plus DirecTV always gives me credits ($30 per month for 12 months), and even if a new deal comes up, and I am existing, the still give me the new deal if I'm polite and ask. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Being a savvy consumer can only help, and doing your homework and finding what is best for you. DBStalk helps with the research of what a person can and may do.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

jtn said:


> Being a savvy consumer can only help, and doing your homework and finding what is best for you. DBStalk helps with the research of what a person can and may do.


 Agree 100%


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## uncrules (Dec 20, 2005)

jtn said:


> I think the only disadvantage for Dish is not having many locals via satellite in comparison to DirecTV. However if the customer is near the local affiliates they can still get OTA with the VIP622.


But that customer will only be able to record 1 OTA at a time since it only has 1 OTA tuner.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

jtn said:


> More good points, and it probably is the VIP722. I chose to stay with DirecTV, I feel they in the end will have more, but I could be wrong. Plus DirecTV always gives me credits ($30 per month for 12 months), and even if a new deal comes up, and I am existing, the still give me the new deal if I'm polite and ask. It doesn't hurt to ask.
> 
> Being a savvy consumer can only help, and doing your homework and finding what is best for you. DBStalk helps with the research of what a person can and may do.


It is the VIP722 and it comes with an 18 month commitment.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

hilmar2k said:


> I noticed that too. It was subtle, but is was definitely there.


Subtle? It bordered on subliminal. I did see that the "better than" was smaller and the word TIVO was bigger.

Hmm. Wonder how many people walk away with thought of DiSH and TiVo...


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## RealityCheck (Apr 3, 2007)

jtn said:


> Good post, Dish Network is going to be offering the same quantity of HD programming that DirecTV is offering - 70 channels, and more too in the future. Go to their website, plus Dish Network had been advertising during World Series about the 70 HD channels.
> 
> I think the only disadvantage for Dish is not having many locals via satellite in comparison to DirecTV. However if the customer is near the local affiliates they can still get OTA with the VIP622.
> 
> Also the deal is you get credits per month to cover the free VIP622, you have to pay the $200 deposit, and Dish credits your statement per month similar to what DirecTV does.


I don't understand how a DISH customer could feel comfortable with the present claim that they have 70 national channels available today. I see more like about 50 BEST CASE. Can anyone list the 70 national channels they claim to have, thanks.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Until DIRECTV has nearly caught up with their own demand, is there something DIRECTV needs to do? (Actually yes.) 

DIRECTV needs to plan, think strategically, and prepare for the next two or three rounds of acquiring customers. And from the people I talk to and the things I keep seeing, I'm sure DIRECTV is doing all those and more.

Cheers,
Tom


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> Subtle? It bordered on subliminal. I did see that the "better than" was smaller and the word TIVO was bigger.
> 
> Hmm. Wonder how many people walk away with thought of DiSH and TiVo...





> sub·tle (sŭt'l) Pronunciation Key
> adj. sub·tler, sub·tlest
> 
> So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive: a subtle smile.


I would say subtle was the correct word to describe it.


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

uncrules said:


> But that customer will only be able to record 1 OTA at a time since it only has 1 OTA tuner.


Some of us with Directv can only record one show period. With Dish, I could record two over the one cable input that is available.

I know, I know, soon (Directv's favorite word). They are still trying to catch up.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Ever since I started looking at satellite, it seemed that dish offered the lower price and DIRECTV offered the greater content. I would be fine seeing the two companies retrench into those positions.


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## KCCardsfan (Apr 18, 2007)

Radio Enginerd said:


> How will DirecTV fire back with the new Dish Network free HD DVR promo?
> 
> Yes, I know, nothing is free .
> 
> I ask the question because I have a friend that wants to switch from Dish to DirecTV but is struggling when Dish is offering a free HD upgrade w/ DVR.


 I recently lost three D* referrals because of the free HD-DVR from DISH, had them sold until they called & D* wouldn't match DISH's offer. D* wouldn't budge, $299 for the DVR or $99 for the standard.
All three now have DISH & are more than willing to wait for the new HD channels to be added to DISH. Also the DISH contract is only 18 months.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

KCCardsfan said:


> I recently lost three D* referrals because of the free HD-DVR from DISH, had them sold until they called & D* wouldn't match DISH's offer. D* wouldn't budge, $299 for the DVR or $99 for the standard.
> All three now have DISH & are more than willing to wait for the new HD channels to be added to DISH. Also the DISH contract is only 18 months.


6 month difference on the contract..... if you are willing to go 18 months... is there a "big" difference in 24 months ?

Funny... similar comments were made 6 months ago... People picked Dish then, but now want out of their contracts... because they don't have the HD... and Dish has made ZERO commitments about adding most of them.


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## KCCardsfan (Apr 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 6 month difference on the contract..... if you are willing to go 18 months... is there a "big" difference in 24 months ?
> 
> Funny... similar comments were made 6 months ago... People picked Dish then, but now want out of their contracts... because they don't have the HD... and Dish has made ZERO commitments about adding most of them.


 Earl,
Not disagreeing with you, just reporting what happened, I tried everything I could to bring D* new business, all three were unhappy Comcast customers. Unfortunately they are now happy DISH customers (compared to their Comcast experiences) instead of happy D* customers.
I even called D* referral line & was told the same, 'We do not match DISH Networks offer'. I tried & lost, but at least I tried.


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## cariera (Oct 27, 2006)

Dish HD Access - $20/month

Direct HD Acces - $9.99 (or $14.98)/month


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

New customers get a FREE HD IRD upgrade - or the HR20 for $199 (after $100 instant rebate).

And I can't believe myself that the 6 momth difference in committments would really make any difference.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

KCCardsfan said:


> Earl,
> Not disagreeing with you, just reporting what happened, I tried everything I could to bring D* new business, all three were unhappy Comcast customers. Unfortunately they are now happy DISH customers (compared to their Comcast experiences) instead of happy D* customers.
> I even called D* referral line & was told the same, 'We do not match DISH Networks offer'. I tried & lost, but at least I tried.


Also, in the refferal program - BOTH YOU AND YOUR NEW SUB get a $50 credit.


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## jostanton (Nov 15, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Also, in the refferal program - BOTH YOU AND YOUR NEW SUB get a $50 credit.


I had Dish and it sucked. The VIP 622 has only on OTA tuner. If you rely on OTA for locals, you can only record one OTA channel at a time which really bites if there are a lot of shows on at the same time. Which happens this time of the year. Also besides Dishe's contract the local installer hits you with a $400 contract breaking fee too if you quit early.


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## vansmack (Aug 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I was more intrested in the quick (about 1/3 of a second), jab at TiVo in that commercial.


There was an asterisk (*) in the jab too, but I didn't pause to see what that was all about....


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## KCCardsfan (Apr 18, 2007)

ScoBuck said:


> New customers get a FREE HD IRD upgrade - or the HR20 for $199 (after $100 instant rebate).
> 
> And I can't believe myself that the 6 momth difference in committments would really make any difference.


Again, just reporting what happened when I TRIED to refer new customers.

Personally the six month difference doesn't matter to me, I'm a D* customer since 1995, but apparently it does matter to some people, remember these referrals were lifetime cable customers, being told of upfront costs by one company & not another was a factor.

And before it comes up, yes I still tried to get them to go with D*, more HD now, $10/month instead of $20 & a $50 referral credit on their first bill, among others.

Sorry, I'm a Video Engineer, not a salesman. Please stop shooting the messenger.


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## KCCardsfan (Apr 18, 2007)

ScoBuck said:


> Also, in the refferal program - BOTH YOU AND YOUR NEW SUB get a $50 credit.


I was well aware of the credits, and mentioned them to my referrals also...............


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

KCCardsfan said:


> Earl,
> Not disagreeing with you, just reporting what happened, I tried everything I could to bring D* new business, all three were unhappy Comcast customers. Unfortunately they are now happy DISH customers (compared to their Comcast experiences) instead of happy D* customers.
> I even called D* referral line & was told the same, 'We do not match DISH Networks offer'. I tried & lost, but at least I tried.


Happy Dish customers? According to some around here that's not possible!

Seriously, why focus on how many HD channels....who cares? It's which provider has the channels YOU want and then other considerations like pricing, equipment, service.

Doesn't Dish offer a lot more HBO and Cinemax channels than DirecTV? I guess for everyone that watches movies that makes them the far better choice?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Doesn't Dish offer a lot more HBO and Cinemax channels than DirecTV? I guess for everyone that watches movies that makes them the far better choice?


Actually NO. DISH only offers 1 HBO, 1 Cinemax, 1 Showtime, and 1 Starz HD channel each.

DirecTV by comparison offers 2HBOs, 2 Cinemx, 3 Showtime, and 5 Starz HD channels.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

ScoBuck said:


> Actually NO. DISH only offers 1 HBO, 1 Cinemax, 1 Showtime, and 1 Starz HD channel each.
> 
> DirecTV by comparison offers 2HBOs, 2 Cinemx, 3 Showtime, and 5 Starz HD channels.


Total channels, not just HD.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

ScoBuck said:


> Actually NO. DISH only offers 1 HBO, 1 Cinemax, 1 Showtime, and 1 Starz HD channel each.
> 
> DirecTV by comparison offers 2HBOs, 2 Cinemx, 3 Showtime, and 5 Starz HD channels.


And 1 The Movie Channel HD


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

paulsown said:


> Some of us with Directv can only record one show period. With Dish, I could record two over the one cable input that is available.
> 
> I know, I know, soon (Directv's favorite word). They are still trying to catch up.


Uh, even with a single line into the HR20, you can still record two OTA programs or one OTA and one satellite.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Total channels, not just HD.


Dish HBO:

HBO (East)
HBO Family
HBO (West)
HBO Latino
HBO2 (East)
HBO Signature 
HBO2 (West)
HBO Comedy

DirecTV HBO:

HBO (East)
HBO2 (East)
HBO Signature
HBO (West)
HBO 2 (West)
HBO Family
HBO Family (West)
HBO Latino

Looks like 8 each. DirecTV has Family West while DiSH has Comedy.

Dish Cinemax:

5StarMAX
Cinemax (West) 
ActionMAX 
MoreMAX 
Cinemax (East)

DirecTV Cinemax:

Cinemax (East)
MoreMAX
Cinemax (West)

Dish has 5 while HBO has 3.

So, for HBO/Cinemax, the count is Dish 13, DirecTV 11. Hardly much of a difference.

The real winner (at least here) for SD channels is Comcast with 12 HBOs and 11 Cinemax for a whopping total of 23!


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

This is the most comprehensice comparison that I know of:

NEW & IMPROVED! HDTV Channel Lineups on DBS, Cable, FiOS!

It has not been updated since 10/15 and so does not include the new additions:
Big Ten Network Alternate feed (218-1) added 10/29 
Big Ten Network Alternate feed (219-1) added 10/29 
FSN Detroit Alternate (669-1) added 10/29 
FSN Houston(648-1) added 10/29 
FSN Midwest (647-1) added 10/17 
FSN Midwest Alternate (648-1) added 10/29 
FSN Pittsburgh (628-1) added 10/17 
NBA HD (601) added 10/29

Per AVS...

Dish does not have these DIRECTV HD channels:
Bravo
Cartoon
CNBC
CNN
FBN
Fuel
FX
MGM
SciFi
ShowToo
Smithsonian
Speed
Starz Comedy
Starz Edge
Starz Kids
TMC
USA
The Weather Channel

DIRECTV does not have these Dish HD channels:
VOOMs _EDITED_

Announced by DIRECTV but not announced by Dish:
ABC Family
Chiller
Disney
ESPN News
HBO Family
HBO Latino
HBO Signature
HBO2
MoreMAX
Sleuth
Tennis
ToonDisney

- Craig


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> DIRECTV does not have these DISH HD channels:
> ABC Family
> Chiller
> Disney
> ...


I don't believe that anyone has these channels yet, they're just announced but not on.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

RAD said:


> I don't believe that anyone has these channels yet, they're just announced but not on.


Sorry. Those are channels announced by DIRECTV that are not announced by Dish.

So DIRECTV has 18 more real HD channels that Dish does not have. DIRECTV has also announced 12 HD channels that Dish has not announced. Dish goes Vroom-Vroom. 

- Craig


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## KCCardsfan (Apr 18, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> The real winner (at least here) for SD channels is Comcast with 12 HBOs and 11 Cinemax for a whopping total of 23!


AT&T Uverse has 60 _Premium_ SD movie channels, only 9 are in HD at this time: (Yes I know, only 1-HD stream & no OTA)

Cinemax- 11
HBO- 13
Starz- 11
Showtime- 12
The Movie Ch.- 4
Encore- 8
Flix- 1


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## Dolly (Jan 30, 2007)

I know where I live while walking around if I saw a Sat. dish in the past it normally had Directv on the dish. And in years past there weren't all that many Sat. dishes around. In more recent years there are more and more Sat. dishes. And now more and more when I see a Sat. dish it has Dish on it  I think Dish is taking people with their ads. And if the people have never had Directv, they don't know they are being taken


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## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

I was going over the fine print on the offer and found something interesting.

Guess I would not be a happy camper with my 5-tuner installation. (2 R15's and 1 standard). Am I reading this wrong?

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/our_products/dish_hd/index.shtml

Existing customer DishHD offer: ends 1/31/08. Available for residential customers signing up for DishHD for the first time. After 6 free months of DishHD, customer must call to downgrade DishHD programming ($6.00/mo HD Enabling fee will apply) or then-current price will apply. DishHD requires additional subscription to qualifying programming. Monthly credit will not include additional programming. New customer DishHD offer: ends 1/31/08. Requires participation in Digital Home Advantage with 18-month commitment. After 6 free months of DishHD, customer must call to downgrade DishHD programming ($6.00/mo HD Enabling fee will apply) or then-current price will apply. DishHD requires additional subscription to qualifying programming. Monthly credit will not include additional programming. Digital Home Advantage: Pay $49.99 Activation Fee; receive $49.99 credit on first bill with 18-month qualifying programming purchase. Restrictions apply, including credit approval and monthly fees for receivers. Early cancellation fee applies. DISH Network retains ownership of equipment. *Limit 4 tuners per account*. Lease upgrade fee may apply for a second DVR receiver (based on model). Offer available in the continental United States for new, first-time DISH Network residential customers. All prices, packages and programming subject to change without notice. Local and state sales taxes may apply. Where applicable, equipment rental fees and programming are taxed separately. All DISH Network programming, and any other services that are provided, are subject to the terms and conditions of the promotional agreement and Residential Customer Agreement, available at www.dishnetwork.com or upon request. Social Security Numbers are used to obtain credit scores and will not be released to third parties except for verification and collection purposes only or if required by governmental authorities. All service marks and trademarks belong to their respective owners.​


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Yikes!! Me and my 8 tuners would be SOL. :nono2:


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## mauijiminar (Oct 11, 2007)

No you are not reading it wrong, with dish you can only have 4 turners unless you buy them outright. Dual turners count as 2 eventhough in is in one unit.


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## aramus8 (Nov 21, 2006)

The old adage, you get what you pay for applies here. Having had both D* and E*, if E* is giving their DVR away, D* at $199 is not charging enough!!!


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## richiephx (Jan 19, 2006)

Dolly said:


> I know where I live while walking around if I saw a Sat. dish in the past it normally had Directv on the dish. And in years past there weren't all that many Sat. dishes around. In more recent years there are more and more Sat. dishes. And now more and more when I see a Sat. dish it has Dish on it  I think Dish is taking people with their ads. And if the people have never had Directv, they don't know they are being taken


You are assuming that the dishes you see are HD subscribers. The non-hd subscribers of both services are far greater. The majority of subscribers of both services are probably happy with what they get and don't feel they are being taken. Your observation is narrow at best.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

KCCardsfan said:


> AT&T Uverse has 60 _Premium_ SD movie channels, only 9 are in HD at this time: (Yes I know, only 1-HD stream & no OTA)
> 
> Cinemax- 11
> HBO- 13
> ...


Yeah, like anyone can get the Uverse.

Anyway, that is about the same as Comcast here. I didn't go through the other channels. The comment was about HBO/Cinemax.


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

It appears DirecTV will have the best selection of HDTV after the launch of D11 which is scheduled to go between December 2007 and Spring 2008 at the latest. At that point DirecTV will have up to 100 HD nationals. Including more HD locals for more markets. However nothing is stopping Dish Network from launching more satellites to be competitive. If Verizon FiOS wanted to add more HD they have the ability, but they are still expanding. I think AT&T Uverse is less likely to be as good as Verizon since they do not bring the fiber optics directly into the home, but just up to the pole, then uses RG6 from the pole to the house. Verizon brings the fiber right to your living room for best results.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

_There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey._

- John Ruskin


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

jtn said:


> It appears DirecTV will have the best selection of HDTV after the launch of D11 which is scheduled to go between December 2007 and Spring 2008 at the latest. At that point DirecTV will have up to 100 HD nationals. Including more HD locals for more markets. However nothing is stopping Dish Network from launching more satellites to be competitive. If Verizon FiOS wanted to add more HD they have the ability, but they are still expanding. I think AT&T Uverse is less likely to be as good as Verizon since they do not bring the fiber optics directly into the home, but just up to the pole, then uses RG6 from the pole to the house. Verizon brings the fiber right to your living room for best results.


I thought there was an Echostar satellite scheduled for launch around the same timeframe as D-11.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

jtn said:


> It appears DirecTV will have the best selection of HDTV after the launch of D11 which is scheduled to go between December 2007 and Spring 2008 at the latest. At that point DirecTV will have up to 100 HD nationals. Including more HD locals for more markets. However nothing is stopping Dish Network from launching more satellites to be competitive. If Verizon FiOS wanted to add more HD they have the ability, but they are still expanding. I think AT&T Uverse is less likely to be as good as Verizon since they do not bring the fiber optics directly into the home, but just up to the pole, then uses RG6 from the pole to the house. Verizon brings the fiber right to your living room for best results.


- DirecTV says they can have up to 100 national HD channels and add more HD LIL cites now with just D10 launched, D11 increases those numbers.

- Dish says (according to recent retailer chat) says they can add more HD by rearranging some of their current channel layouts on their existing satellites.

- AT&T, unless you're in a new subdivision, doesn't bring fiber anywhere near the home, they run fiber to a VRAD that can be up to a few thousand feet away from the home and standard copper phone line from there to the house, coax is not run from the pole to the home.


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

Ken S said:


> I thought there was an Echostar satellite scheduled for launch around the same timeframe as D-11.


It could be that they are.


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

RAD said:


> - DirecTV says they can have up to 100 national HD channels and add more HD LIL cites now with just D10 launched, D11 increases those numbers.
> 
> - Dish says (according to recent retailer chat) says they can add more HD by rearranging some of their current channel layouts on their existing satellites.
> 
> - AT&T, unless you're in a new subdivision, doesn't bring fiber anywhere near the home, they run fiber to a VRAD that can be up to a few thousand feet away from the home and standard copper phone line from there to the house, coax is not run from the pole to the home.


Thanks for the clarification.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are "changing" their definition of what counts as a national HD channel...
> And will soon run out of HD channels to count, to top HD's count (with the same definitions).....


This is as opposed to DIRECTV that is counting channels (especially RSNs) more than once as part of its ST, CI and LP offerings?


> (And I am curious if anyone does switch if the free DVR comes with the 18 month commitment)


New DISH HD DVR subscribers can opt out of the 18 month commitment by forfeiting the activation fee ($49.99 that is normally rebated) and a forfeit of the six months free DISH HD promo ($120).

The DIRECTV counteroffer is $199, three free months of Showtime and Starz and an iron clad 24 month programming commitment.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> DIRECTV does not have these Dish HD channels:
> VOOMs _EDITED_


I'm curious as to why the VOOM channels aren't itemized.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jtn said:


> It appears DirecTV will have the best selection of HDTV after the launch of D11 which is scheduled to go between December 2007 and Spring 2008 at the latest. At that point DirecTV will have up to 100 HD nationals.


Officially, DIRECTV will have _capacity_ for approximately 160 national HD channels and approximately 1,500 HD LIL _after_ the successful handover of D11. Until then, they have the downlink capacity for approximately 85 national HD channels and 1,000 HD LIL.

Spaceway 1 ~ 250 HD LIL
Spaceway 2 ~ 250 HD LIL
DIRECTV 10 ~ 75 national HD, 500 HD LIL
DIRECTV 11 ~ 75 national HD, 500 HD LIL

(I've added 10 national HD for the existing MPEG2 capacity which may be generous)


> If Verizon FiOS wanted to add more HD they have the ability, but they are still expanding.


I'm not sure this is true. I suspect that they may be up against the wall with the technologies that they are currently using.


> Verizon brings the fiber right to your living room for best results.


Unless you have pets that like to chew.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

harsh said:


> This is as opposed to DIRECTV that is counting channels (especially RSNs) more than once as part of its ST, CI and LP offerings?


Why do you insist on writing this when it is wrong?

DirecTV counts:

39 new channels (none are CI or ST). They show 40 icons but the icons seperate out Golf and Versus.

9 existing channels (ESPN, TNT et al)

4 locals of NBC, CBS, Fox, ABC (yes, not all markets, so this is a bit dodgy)

9 RSNs (none of them part time)

13 channels not quite launched yet

8 PPV

8 DNS Networks (the weakest part for me).

39+9+4+13+8+8 = 81

If you add the CI, NBA and NFL channels you get 9 NFL, 7 NBA, 13 NHL, you actually get 110.

If you add the game-only RSNs you get a few more (is it 5? I lost count).

DirecTV is *hardly* overcounting as you claim.

Now, will you stop posting untruths?

Oh, my source? The DirecTV website. Yours? Are you sitting on it?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

harsh said:


> (I've added 10 national HD for the existing MPEG2 capacity which may be generous)


Not generous at all. Actually undercounting.

There are 9 full time HD channels in MPEG2 plus two part time channels for sports and PPV events. Those two are on much of the day as they are used for PPV movies during the late hours.

DirecTV routinely runs 11 HD channels in MPEG2, so your "generous" 10 is actually an undercount.

But you can pontificate on facts all you want and still be wrong.

Edit: Oops. Seems _I_ undercounted. I forgot the 8 DNS channels in HD/MPEG2. So the *capacity* is actually 19 MPEG2 HD channels. Gee, the truth is fun.

But that is counting "normal" operating procedure. If they turn off some other stuff, they get a few more HD channels for the NFL Sundays. But I will stay away from that...although it says the "capacity" is far more than the 10 you accorded them in your generosity.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

harsh said:


> This is as opposed to DIRECTV that is counting channels (especially RSNs) more than once as part of its ST, CI and LP offerings?New DISH HD DVR subscribers can opt out of the 18 month commitment by forfeiting the activation fee ($49.99 that is normally rebated) and a forfeit of the six months free DISH HD promo ($120).
> 
> The DIRECTV counteroffer is $199, three free months of Showtime and Starz and an iron clad 24 month programming commitment.


Explain to me how having to pay $120 is not an ironclad commitment? All DiSH and DirecTV are doing is the amount you have to pay to get out of your commitment.

From the D* website:

If you do not fulfill your Programming Commitment, DIRECTV may charge you a fee of up to $150 for standard equipment or $300 for advanced receivers.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

hilmar2k said:


> Yikes!! Me and my 8 tuners would be SOL. :nono2:


You could do 8 tuners but you would have to buy the other 4. Also, you would have to have 2 accounts because Dish only allows 6 receiver per account.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

BNUMM said:


> You could do 8 tuners but you would have to buy the other 4. Also, you would have to have 2 accounts because Dish only allows 6 receiver per account.


Full accounts? Or an add-on one?


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

harsh said:


> Officially, DIRECTV will have _capacity_ for approximately 160 national HD channels and approximately 1,500 HD LIL _after_ the successful handover of D11. Until then, they have the downlink capacity for approximately 85 national HD channels and 1,000 HD LIL.
> 
> Spaceway 1 ~ 250 HD LIL
> Spaceway 2 ~ 250 HD LIL
> ...


Yes I have two dogs that like to chew, so they would eat the fiber and the technicians from Verizon. :lol:


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## cgking114 (Mar 5, 2007)

BNUMM said:


> You could do 8 tuners but you would have to buy the other 4. Also, you would have to have 2 accounts because Dish only allows 6 receiver per account.


This was the deciding factor for me. I have a new house and i wanted service for six TVs. Dish couldn't do it for the price Directv could.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

Full accounts.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

BNUMM said:


> Full accounts.


Ouch!


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## spidey (Sep 1, 2006)

Radio Enginerd said:


> How will DirecTV fire back with the new Dish Network free HD DVR promo?
> 
> Yes, I know, nothing is free .
> 
> I ask the question because I have a friend that wants to switch from Dish to DirecTV but is struggling when Dish is offering a free HD upgrade w/ DVR.


Dish also claims more HD


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> Explain to me how having to pay $120 is not an ironclad commitment? All DiSH and DirecTV are doing is the amount you have to pay to get out of your commitment.
> 
> From the D* website:
> 
> If you do not fulfill your Programming Commitment, DIRECTV may charge you a fee of up to $150 for standard equipment or $300 for advanced receivers.


With DirecTV you would also have to return the DVR which cost $299.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Ken S said:


> With DirecTV you would also have to return the DVR which cost $299.


Possibly. But you can get deals less than $299. There was one in my Sunday supplement.

Anyway, I was just pointing out that both providers have ironclad agreements. Not what Harsh was implying. (Tired of his spin, spin, spin.)


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## sgsmitty (Oct 18, 2007)

For what it is worth, I was with Dish for 8 years and switched to Directv last week. I had a HDTV for a year with standard Dish DVR reception. Of course, as you all know it does not look good on a HDTV. The wife bugged me last year about getting HD with dish but at the time they only had like 8-10 channels if I recall and you had to buy the new receiver, etc. So I waited.

Then the 70+ and 100 coming thing that I heard about at the beginning of the year began to be delivered so I decided it was time to do it. Dish had the free HD DVR program going so I certainly felt like I was walking away from something. But I could not find any info on the Net about Dish bringing on new sats anytime soon while at the same time I was reading about Directv 10 and 11 etc. Being with Dish for so long I know they leap frog each other from time to time so it was more a question of who can give me the most right now.

I have had it a week and I love the picture (of course I assume DIsh would look just as nice) and matches what I was seeing with OTA previously. I did have a wicked installation fiasco (3 days!) but that is over with. Feature wise, there are a couple of things I miss that Dish had with their receiver that the Directv does not but I can get over it I reckon.
Only issue I have had now (it has happened 2-3 times) is when the receiver will not allow pause, rewind features with live tv or playback previously record items (i get prompt to delete) until I reset the box (HR20-100S). I have been posting/reading concerning that problem here on the forums. Other than that, and I assume that will get resolved, I am happy so far.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

harsh said:


> This is as opposed to DIRECTV that is counting channels (especially RSNs) more than once as part of its ST, CI and LP offerings?


Last I checked... the "70" channel count of DirecTV didn't include any duplicating of the channels from the special sports packages... Only full time 24/7 available RSNs


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ken S said:


> I thought there was an Echostar satellite scheduled for launch around the same timeframe as D-11.


However that SAT by Echostar is a replacement for an existing sat... not an addition... they may get some new bandwith because of technology improvements... but it is not going to be on the magnitude of an additional SAT


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## tealcomp (Sep 7, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually...
> 
> Dish has had "free" DVR since the start of the year... they announced it right around CES time.
> 
> ...


They told me when I was considering them, that it would be either the 622 OR the 722.

-Dan


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

Ken S said:


> With DirecTV you would also have to return the DVR which cost $299.


You would have to return the Dish DVR also.


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## Dolly (Jan 30, 2007)

There was an add from D rolled up with our newspaper. I say ad, but it was more like a small storybook :eek2: And they are now offering a free DVR. I guess the poster that started this thread (sorry I can't remember who it was now) was ahead of the curve. His friends had they not already gone with E* would have gotten DVRs for free


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## Pink Fairy (Dec 28, 2006)

Dolly said:


> There was an add from D rolled up with our newspaper. I say ad, but it was more like a small storybook :eek2: And they are now offering a free DVR. I guess the poster that started this thread (sorry I can't remember who it was now) was ahead of the curve. His friends had they not already gone with E* would have gotten DVRs for free


I believe that they are talking about a free HD DVR which is what Dish advertises.

D* only takes $100 off an HD DVR for new customers


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

BNUMM said:


> You would have to return the Dish DVR also.


Right, but they didn't charge you anything for it...that was my point.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> However that SAT by Echostar is a replacement for an existing sat... not an addition... they may get some new bandwith because of technology improvements... but it is not going to be on the magnitude of an additional SAT


Ahh..thanks.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

harsh said:


> I'm curious as to why the VOOM channels aren't itemized.


I did clarify:


Milominderbinder2 said:


> ...Dish goes Vroom-Vroom.


- Craig


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## Spike (Jul 4, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As to the OP question...
> 
> How is DirecTV going to fire back?
> 
> ...


When I was shopping for satellite service, Dish offered me a free DVR with no commitment. I could have dropped them at any time.

I agree! they are on their heels.


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## Marcus S (Apr 23, 2002)

Being a supporter and early adopter of Dish in the past after finally becoming so frustrated I had to switch to the dark side, D*. Ergen's words are now biting him.


We have the top rated customer support, rated by JD Powers
We have more channels than cable or DirecTV
We have the first non Tivo DVR
We are the leader in HD
We have Charlie Chat

Translation


Lost that position 5 years ago, but still promote it as new, hope your Hindi is good when talking to E* support.
More home shopping, religious, paid programming, mono music, and Muzak channels than anyone else.
Firmware / software upgrades that lock up receiver/DVR. Discontinue models instead of fixing issues.
Unfortunatly no one has told E* sales or CSR's they are now behind in HD, for the moment.
We have Danny DeVito & Bill Paxton? 

Endless repeats on Voom channels for months? Like watching the endless loop of Discovery HD in retail stores.​
​E* quoted as saying we are now looking for more options to free up bandwith to add HD channels our customers are asking for. I just wonder (blond moment) where E* could reclaim bandwidth? "On their heals" aka we are to busy in talks with at&t to buy out Dish, though Charlie wants to hold onto the Echostar technology division.

I still have both D* Choice & E* (lowest tier), but it amuses me that E* swallowed their own poison SD pill to become the we have more SD channels than anyone else war. Now they can't find bandwidth for additional HD? Well, until E* shoots up their next satellite, I wonder if E* will then offer home shopping, religious, and paid programming in HD.

This post like Rush Limbaugh for amusement purposes only.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

WOW, this thread grew wings.

Yes, E* is on the heals of DirecTV but they both need to remain competitive regardless of their offerings. The "I'm better than you" attitude was the reason Dish lost a customer (customer = me) 14 months ago. I hope DirecTV doesn't follow suit with how Dish was treating customers wanting to upgrade to HD before D10 was launched.

Just my opinion of course.



Marcus S said:


> Being a supporter and early adopter of Dish in the past after finally becoming so frustrated I had to switch to the dark side, D*. Ergen's words are now biting him.
> 
> 
> We have the top rated customer support, rated by JD Powers
> ...


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## Marcus S (Apr 23, 2002)

It all seems to come around in the end. You replied before my last edit so hopefully no one takes it all seriously.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tonyd79 said:


> Explain to me how having to pay $120 is not an ironclad commitment?


$120 is paying for service that they would have otherwised comped you as a promotion


> All DiSH and DirecTV are doing is the amount you have to pay to get out of your commitment.


I was pointing out that the DIRECTV exit price is substantially higher.


> From the D* website:
> 
> If you do not fulfill your Programming Commitment, DIRECTV may charge you a fee of up to $150 for standard equipment or $300 for advanced receivers.


And you've supported my point. With D* you get to pay $199 up front and if you decide you want out, you pay another $300 less 13/month per month. Under the worst case circumstances you could be out almost $500 (and possibly forfeit your programming credits) if it doesn't work out. With DISH, you could be out $49.99.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tonyd79 said:


> Why do you insist on writing this when it is wrong?
> 
> DirecTV counts:
> 
> ...


This is the national HD count less PPV if you count them as channels.


> 4 locals of NBC, CBS, Fox, ABC (yes, not all markets, so this is a bit dodgy)


Now we've departed entirely from the national HD channels.


> 13 channels not quite launched yet


Nobody's counting channels that don't exist.


> 8 DNS Networks (the weakest part for me).


Given how few qualify, I would consider this negligible.If you add the CI, NBA and NFL channels you get 9 NFL, 7 NBA, 13 NHL, you actually get 110.[/quote]Here's what I was talking about. Most of these are made up of RSN feeds (oftentimes game only). This is what I was talking about when I mentioned double and triple counting.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are "changing" their definition of what counts as a national HD channel...
> And will soon run out of HD channels to count, to top HD's count (with the same definitions).....
> 
> They are trying to get as many customers on what ever angle they can.
> (And I am curious if anyone does switch if the free DVR comes with the 18 month commitment)


So, I guess D* needs to put up a few hundred HD VoD infomercials and call it a couple hundred more "channels."


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Total channels, not just HD.


If it isn't HD it doesn't exist.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

Promo I received in the mail today from E* says:

"Only with Dish! More HD Channels than any other provider in the country"

I wonder what kind of math they are using..?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

kcmurphy88 said:


> So, I guess D* needs to put up a few hundred HD VoD infomercials and call it a couple hundred more "channels."


Why would they do that?

They are actively stating their are "against" COMCAST's counting of VOD offereings as HD channels.


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why would they do that?
> 
> They are actively stating their are "against" COMCAST's counting of VOD offereings as HD channels.


Comcast does offer HD INDemand for HBO/Showtime and many free movies etc. Not just informercials. Whether it should be counted or not is debatable.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

uncrules said:


> But that customer will only be able to record 1 OTA at a time since it only has 1 OTA tuner.


I can't believe how restrained I am being.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

kcmurphy88 said:


> If it isn't HD it doesn't exist.


In my kingdom if I don't watch it...it doesn't count. Much of the "new" HD is just the same drek piled Higher and Deeper.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Content is King.

Content recording device is Queen.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

KCCardsfan said:


> All three now have DISH & are more than willing to wait for the new HD channels to be added to DISH. Also the DISH contract is only 18 months.


Is Dish going to add the reasonable number of NEW HD channels within that 18 month period?


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## Badger (Jan 31, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I thought there was an Echostar satellite scheduled for launch around the same timeframe as D-11.


There WAS a E* satellite supposed to be going up about the same time as D11 but E's launch has been scrubbed because of a problem at the launch site. Still hasn't been re-scheduled and looks like probably late spring at best. D11 is on the launch scedule and D* has stated that D12 will be going up sometime late 2008. E* won't be catching up soon!


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

harsh said:


> Most of these are made up of RSN feeds (oftentimes game only). This is what I was talking about when I mentioned double and triple counting.


You don't listen, do you? DirecTV is not counting the RSNs in their count....

They are a bit dodgy in the DNS and a few channels they haven't launched yet but they are not counting RSNs and are not double counting ANYTHING.

But I give you what they ARE counting (even telling you that some of it is a bit shady) yet you continue to claim they are counting double. I even showed you that if they did count double as you claim, they would be claiming over 110 channels not just over 70.

I don't think you are that dumb. Just act that way when it benefits your agenda.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Badger said:


> There WAS a E* satellite supposed to be going up about the same time as D11 but E's launch has been scrubbed because of a problem at the launch site. Still hasn't been re-scheduled and looks like probably late spring at best. D11 is on the launch scedule and D* has stated that D12 will be going up sometime late 2008. E* won't be catching up soon!


D12 is a backup satellite I thought and won't be used for additional programming. Don't they keep the backups in a more distant orbit and only move them into place when/if necessary?


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

Ken S said:


> D12 is a backup satellite I thought and won't be used for additional programming. Don't they keep the backups in a more distant orbit and only move them into place when/if necessary?


Sounds reasonable that a backup would be there in case of a failure of a satellite.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Ken S said:


> D12 is a backup satellite I thought and won't be used for additional programming. Don't they keep the backups in a more distant orbit and only move them into place when/if necessary?


D12 is (currently) a ground spare duplicate of D10 and D11 (with _possible_ engineering changes to alleviate whatever semi-mysterious spotbeam issue afflicted D10 and may have contributed to the extra-long on-orbit test phase). Chase Carey stated, in a presentation to investors a month or so back, that "the next" satellite (obviously D12) would be launched in late '08. So far I have yet to see any firm announcement of a launch order with any of the launch service providers, but then again, I haven't been specifically looking either.

An orbital spare makes more sense than a ground spare for any number of reasons, not the least of which that it takes something like 3 - 6 months to prep a satellite for launch, even after you have a reasonably firm date to shoot for. I would guess D12 will be parked in an orbit close to 103 or 99 and either share transponder assignments with the sat (D10 or 11) already there (remember, frequency assignments are fixed no matter how many birds you have up there), or in a parking obit a few degrees away but able to be moved into position in short order to take over completely in case of emergency.


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