# OTA ? Newbie



## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi guys,
I am new to dish and hdtv. I have a dishnetwork setup with a vip722. The dish tech was unable to get signal on 61.5 sat which means that I can't get HD locals over the sat. I connected a uhf antenna to the vip722 and I only get 2 locals channels. I connect the same antenna directly to my Samsung TV and the tv finds 10. The TV reports a very strong signal stregnth on all channels. The vip722 reports a weak signal on the 2 that it can see. Any ideas as to what is going on here? Is the atsc tuner crappy on the 722?

Thanks in advance.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

First off, you shouldn't have signed off on your install if you can't get your HD satellite (confirmed to be 61.5W).

How far are you from your TV broadcast towers? It is possible that the signal is too strong.

It is certainly possible that your ViP722 has a defective OTA tuner.

I'd be calling DISH Network _right now_ (Sunday June 22, 2008) and get your installation completed ASAP. I'd also tell them to bring a new receiver to see if that's the problem with your OTA reception.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I would also suggest going into your 722 and using the manual add type in the frequency of the channels you are getting on your TV and see if you get any response.. 

Like Harsh said, you could have bad OTA, but given you are picking up a few channels the problem also could lie in that the 722 tuner is more picky than the TV tuner or perhaps you are running into a multi-pathing issue. 

Bottom line is, OTA is a art not a plug and play thing. Just because it work on one thing and does not work on another does not mean the other device is bad. Could mean that there is something that the non-working device does not like that the working handles better.

I think more info is needed.. What strengths are you seeing on your good channels. Is the other channels located at the same location? Is your Antenna a directional antenna? 

I would also suggest going to AVSForums HD local area and look for your area and see if there are any other 722 reports of the same issue.


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## Jim148 (Jun 22, 2004)

You have some very good advice here already posted here. In addition to that, I am wondering is you are using the SAME antenna and coaxial cable for each test? Also, are you using very good quality feed line? My brother in law recently went through a similar scenario. I suggested that he take ANY RG-59 out of the loop and replace it with RG-6, even on the short runs. Yup, you guessed it, it solved the problem. The other thing is not all ATSC receivers will act the same on the same antenna and length of feedline. Some receivers are more sensitive and some do handle multi path distortion interference better than others. My advice is to experiment. Sometimes a very slight difference in location can make all the difference in great signal or no signal.


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

The DN tech could not get a 61.5 signal because of large trees in the way. I was okay with losing the hd locals over the dish because I was fairly certain that I could pick them up ota. I guess if all else fails, I can do ota connected directly to my tv which works very well. I'd lose dvr capability for those channels. I tried manually adding those channels and they show 0 signal stregnth via vip722. Thanks for the replies. If you can think of any other tests that I can do or settings I can try, I'd be happy to hear them.


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

Oh, I didn't answer all of your questions. I went cheap on the antenna. 10 bucks at wal-mart for a mult directions vhf - uhf. As I said before though, it provided sufficient reception for my tv. Is there a way that I can test for multi path conflict?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

mbrown2097 said:


> The DN tech could not get a 61.5 signal because of large trees in the way. I was okay with losing the hd locals over the dish because I was fairly certain that I could pick them up ota.


The point you may be missing here is... the majority of national HD from Dish is on either the 61.5 or 129 satellite locations... so if you subscribe to any of the HD offerings from Dish (or certain premium movie packages) you are most likely missing the HD you would be paying for...

I thought I understood that Dish would not install in such situations because of potential future problems/complaints from the customer... and as a customer I wouldn't sign off on a partial install either. Even if right now you aren't subscribing to HD through Dish (your original post didn't say), you may want it someday.


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

I am subscribing to hd thru DN. TV reports a 1080i or 720p on all of the hd channels that I have checked. Can you name a channel that is hd only thru 61.5? I'll check it to see what my tv reports. If all I am really missing is local HD, then I guess I am satisfied with my setup. (other than no dvr for OTA hd locals), especially considering that I got to dump cable and have about 200 new channels. (Some HD) Not to mention the DVR. Perhaps I should be raising heck that they couldn't connect the 61.5 but I do have trees blocking. I'd rather have what I have right now then what I had a week ago. (And I am saving 50 bucks per month over cable) Please let me know if I am missing something. I may go back to DN and compalin if so. Thanks again.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mbrown2097 said:


> I am subscribing to hd thru DN. TV reports a 1080i or 720p on all of the hd channels that I have checked.


Your TV lies like a dog. The DISH Network receivers put out only one HD resolution (either 720P or 1080i) and you would know if you changed it.

Do you get ESPN2 HD?


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

harsh said:


> Your TV lies like a dog. The DISH Network receivers put out only one HD resolution (either 720P or 1080i) and you would know if you changed it.
> 
> Do you get ESPN2 HD?


Yes 9425.. Reports as 1080i. BTW, I messed up when I said tv reports 720p. That was for OTA only. My 722 is set to 1080i. Good catch. Does espn2 normally come across 61.5?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

We seem to be missing some key information here. It sounds like your installer must have set you up with 110/119/129 instead of 110/119 and 61.5

Many channels on 61.5 and 129 are the same, except for a few Regional Sports Networks (RSN) and local HD channels.

IF you are seeing ESPN2HD on channel 9425 then you must have either 129 or 61.5 in the mix.. and if you are sure you don't have 61.5 then you must have 129.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

mbrown2097 said:


> Oh, I didn't answer all of your questions. I went cheap on the antenna. 10 bucks at wal-mart for a mult directions vhf - uhf. As I said before though, it provided sufficient reception for my tv. Is there a way that I can test for multi path conflict?


Have you checked AntennaWeb.Org to see how far you are from the transmitting towers and the direction? They will also advise you as to the specifications of the antenna you will need to pick up these channels. I'm about 20 miles from the transmitters and I am able to receive all the networks in addition to about 15 more. I have a $30 Channel Master 3010 in my attic.
Also, I have my OTA feed split between my TV and my receiver.


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

HDMe said:


> We seem to be missing some key information here. It sounds like your installer must have set you up with 110/119/129 instead of 110/119 and 61.5
> 
> Many channels on 61.5 and 129 are the same, except for a few Regional Sports Networks (RSN) and local HD channels.
> 
> IF you are seeing ESPN2HD on channel 9425 then you must have either 129 or 61.5 in the mix.. and if you are sure you don't have 61.5 then you must have 129.


I'm certain that I don't have 61.5 and DN rep claims all I am missing is local HDs. I guess I am okay with that so long as my ota is working (1 way or another). Is there any setup that needs to occur on the vip722 to get ota working (other than scan locals)? It just seems odd that I get so much with the TV and so little with the 722. And I would expect the signal stregnth on the TV OTA to be weak. It's almost like it isn't even turned on. BTW, how do I add 10.1 manually. I can add whole numbers (10)but not the digital equivs. And I definitely have a multipath issue with the whole numbers because those are the non-hds that I am getting via DN.


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

TulsaOK said:


> Have you checked AntennaWeb.Org to see how far you are from the transmitting towers and the direction? They will also advise you as to the specifications of the antenna you will need to pick up these channels. I'm about 20 miles from the transmitters and I am able to receive all the networks in addition to about 15 more. I have a $30 Channel Master 3010 in my attic.
> Also, I have my OTA feed split between my TV and my receiver.


I did check antennaweb a few days ago. 18 miles is the distance. They recommend a small multidirectional (yellow uhf). All of my local hds are at 59 degrees.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

mbrown2097 said:


> I did check antennaweb a few days ago. 18 miles is the distance. They recommend a small multidirectional (yellow uhf). All of my local hds are at 59 degrees.


A little better antenna might bring in all your locals. Splitting the feed into your TV and receiver would allow you a little extra flexibility.


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## hardcase (May 11, 2006)

"18 miles is the distance. They recommend a small multidirectional (yellow uhf). All of my local hds are at 59 degrees." 

I looked up your bradcast stations on antennapoint.com. All 6 Knoxville stations are UHF and if they're all on the same heading from your location, why would you use a UHF/VHF multidirectional antenna. You're asking for Multi-path.

Multi-path is caused by buildings and any other hard object in the line-of-sight to the broadcast towers. They cause signals to reach the antenna out of phase, confusing the ATSC (Digital) chip set in the converter box or tuner (for analog or digital TV sets). If the signal reaching the front of the antenna is not 2 to 3 times stronger than a bounced signal from the same station reaching the back of the antenna, the ATSC chip doesn’t know which signal to use, so it just keeps searching. 

The answer is to up-grade to a new digital antenna, designed and tuned to receive digital signals that help reject Multi-path signals.

Also, you didn't say whether you're using an indoor or outdoor antenna. At 18 miles, an indoor antenna should work well, provided it's one designed to deal with multi-path. Signals bounce around off your veiwing room walls also, to add to the interference. 

Since you have a dish on your roof, an outdoor antenna is always better and the higher the better and you can piggyback your OTA antenna onto the dish pole, diplexing the incoming OTA signal onto the exisiting RG-6 cable at the dish and splitting them back at your TV with another diplexer, saving you the trouble of running another cable.

Buy a new directional UHF Digital antenna from someone who will refund your complete pirchase price, no questions asked.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

hardcase said:


> ...
> The answer is to up-grade to a new digital antenna, designed and tuned to receive digital signals that help reject Multi-path signals. ...
> 
> Buy a new directional UHF Digital antenna from someone who will refund your complete pirchase price, no questions asked.


There is no such thing as a "digital antenna." There are TV antennas that are optimized for UHF and there are antennas that are optimized for VHF and there are antennas that strive for good reception for both bands.

If all of the OP's sources are UHF and all originating from the same direction a UHF antenna would be the first thought, but a larger antenna that is a designed for both UHF and VHF *may* actually be superior as far as the UHF reception.

Simply to know the bearing and distance to the transmitter from one's antenna is not a 100% predictor of viewing success. An understanding of topography and man-made structures and products of nature *may* also be needed.


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

hardcase said:


> "18 miles is the distance. They recommend a small multidirectional (yellow uhf). All of my local hds are at 59 degrees."
> 
> I looked up your bradcast stations on antennapoint.com. All 6 Knoxville stations are UHF and if they're all on the same heading from your location, why would you use a UHF/VHF multidirectional antenna. You're asking for Multi-path.


Hmm, I am a newbie for one so it is safe to say that I don't know exactly what I need to be doing. Can you recommend an indoor antenna? I'll be glad to try a different one. I assume from your post that you believe my tv is handling multipath better than the 722. Is that correct? I know an outdoor antenna would be far superior but I am not willing to invest the $, afterall, I have a workng ota signal. Just trying to DVR it now. Your advice is appreciated.


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## kbz71 (Jun 19, 2008)

hi Mbrown, I have the exact same problem you describe. I have a VIP 722 and my indoor antenna doesn't pick up any high definition channels, but when plugged directly into my televison it gets about 4 HD channels. I still am looking for a fix and I would be willing to try a cheap outdoor antenna that is easy to setup and use. 

Does anyone know a good outdoor antenna to buy? the previous posted one was this Channel master 3010 which I found on amazon.


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## kbz71 (Jun 19, 2008)

Here is an image of the channels around me


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

mbrown2097 said:


> I did check antennaweb a few days ago. 18 miles is the distance. They recommend a small multidirectional (yellow uhf). All of my local hds are at 59 degrees.


For the moment, Antennaweb.org is a poor choice to use for selecting an outdoor antenna. http://www.tvfool.com is a little harder to use, but at least has correct information. At the moment, WBIT-DT (10.1) is using channel 31 and a UHF only would work for you. If you use TVFool instead, and then click the Radio Button for 
Digital Channels Post-transition* (after 2/17/09):
it shows channel 10.1 will be broadcasting on 10, and 7.1 will be using channel 7. Both will need a VHF antenna.

I didn't check Waco close, but Antennaweb.org lists KCEN-DT as channel 9.1, not its real 6.1 (but it does transmit on VHF channel 9 now and next year).

You want an antenna that is right for now, and right for next year.


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## kbz71 (Jun 19, 2008)

CABill said:


> You want an antenna that is right for now, and right for next year.


Do you have an amazon.com suggestion for a good anntenna to buy ($40 shipped?) Here is my other map


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

I don't know much about antennae, but I'd think the 3010 would work for you. I did notice that your channel 10.1 is ALSO going to be broadcasting on 10 in 2009. So is my 10.1, and Knoxville.

But you didn't click the radio button for Digital Channels 2009. Your 10.1 still shows 53 (now using). 10.1 needs UHF today, and VHF next year. That was my point about checking both.


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## Nitro (Jun 17, 2008)

I got an antennas direct DB2 antenna on ebay for less than $40, you might want to look into one of those.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

CABill said:


> For the moment, Antennaweb.org is a poor choice to use for selecting an outdoor antenna. http://www.tvfool.com is a little harder to use, but at least has correct information. ...


Wow. Good site! Antennaweb keeps suggesting that I should have great UHF reception just as my neighbors a block away do. (They're at the top of a hill, I'm at the base.)

tvfool suggests about a 20 db difference between us. They suggest I'd need a 35 mast height for Line of Sight (LOS) and my neighbor would need 0 feet. These results are consistent with my observations.

I wonder if antennaweb includes provision for topography at all?

Thanks for the link.


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## kbz71 (Jun 19, 2008)

Nitro said:


> I got an antennas direct DB2 antenna on ebay for less than $40, you might want to look into one of those.


So would this work for me? I am splitting the cost with 3 roomies and we are only living in our house for 6 months.

http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Dire...2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1214254626&sr=8-2


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

Hmm, Went to tvfool.com and got similar info. 0 ft los. 18 miles.. Interesting thing here. The 2 channels that I receive via 722 receiver are both vhf. I am receiving no uhf ota via 722. It seems like that would lend credence to multipath. Any thoughts?


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

My thought is that I'm confused. 
I picked Zipcode 37771 (no address) which shows 60º and 24 miles to Knoxville towers. Current Digital only doesn't show two VHF digital channels. If I pick post transition Digitals, 7 (7.1) and 10 (10.1) WILL BE VHF, but 7 doesn't list a digital 7.1 now and 10.1 transmits on 31 now. My GUESS is 7.1 is one of the two you get and TVFool doesn't show it as 7.1, but I've no idea what two channels you get on the 722. Lenoir City shouldn't be too far from where you are, but if the 2nd VHF channel is 11 with .10 kW Xmit power, it could make a huge difference to be off by 4 miles. With everything at 60º from you, I'd think a directional would work better.

Wouldn't help identify multipath, but Rx in the -50 dBm should be receivable. Have you put the set top antenna on a length of coax to locate it in a window, with it connected to only the 722, just to see what happens? When connected to the TV, can you see any signal strength meter for the various channels?


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

CABill said:


> My thought is that I'm confused.
> I picked Zipcode 37771 (no address) which shows 60º and 24 miles to Knoxville towers. Current Digital only doesn't show two VHF digital channels. If I pick post transition Digitals, 7 (7.1) and 10 (10.1) WILL BE VHF, but 7 doesn't list a digital 7.1 now and 10.1 transmits on 31 now. My GUESS is 7.1 is one of the two you get and TVFool doesn't show it as 7.1, but I've no idea what two channels you get on the 722. Lenoir City shouldn't be too far from where you are, but if the 2nd VHF channel is 11 with .10 kW Xmit power, it could make a huge difference to be off by 4 miles. With everything at 60º from you, I'd think a directional would work better.
> 
> Wouldn't help identify multipath, but Rx in the -50 dBm should be receivable. Have you put the set top antenna on a length of coax to locate it in a window, with it connected to only the 722, just to see what happens? When connected to the TV, can you see any signal strength meter for the various channels?


37934 is my zip. I receive 2 channels 7 and 7.1 I think via 722. Neither of which do I recognize. When connected to TV, I get can get all signal stregnth bars with a little antenna positioning. I get 0 signal stregnth via 722 no matter the positioning. I'll try the longer cable and place the antenna outside for kicks and Let you guys know how it goes.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

I'm not clear on the 7 and 7.1, but only the 7.1 should show up with the "antenna" symbol. No matter where the antenna is, you might try Menu-6-9 (I don't have your receiver, so adjust if that isn't Locals), then Add locals, Digital, Yes, and then in the Transmit number, enter 26 (for 6.x). Wait 10 seconds to see if there is any signal strength. If you get a strength appearing, pick Done to add 6.1 and come back and try Transmit number 31 for 10.1. Just a WAG, but the 7 / 7.1 might be messing up the automatic scan you need to do when you position the antenna. Until the 722 gets a signal from 26 in the auto/manual add digital channels, it doesn't know that that is 6.1.


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

Got it!!!!! The problems were:
1. Ignorance on how to manually add channels
2. Faulty or picky auto scan.
Thanks CABill for your last post. It cleared up the manual add for me.
I am getting 75% stregnth on most of my locals thru the 722 now.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

Good deal! I'm not sure if you have to do Done and come back for each manual add - it's been a LONG time since I did that. You might be able to increase the signal, but as long as you don't break up at 75, no reason for a directional antenna (but that might help). I know I'm used high 90s for towers 40 miles away, but they are on the same Azimuth as the San Fransciso stations that are 100 miles and don't get a good signal that often (may change next year).

SaltiDawg's topography issue is the reverse of mine - I'm on a ridge 100' above the rest of my zipcode and TVfool shows that with an exact address compared to just the zipcode. I don't think it will consider anything except elevation though. Trees in the path, buildings or hills to bounce off for multipath, ... probably aren't taken into account in their extimates.


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## kbz71 (Jun 19, 2008)

mbrown2097 said:


> Got it!!!!! The problems were:
> 1. Ignorance on how to manually add channels
> 2. Faulty or picky auto scan.
> Thanks CABill for your last post. It cleared up the manual add for me.
> I am getting 75% stregnth on most of my locals thru the 722 now.


I am going to try this out when I get home, did you just use the charts from antennaweb.org and that other site to put in the manual settings? I am going to "Hard code" a few of them in and see what happens. I also have an indoor antenna and it is expendable so I may just put it outside to see how long it last if I get better signal there. My house was made in 1905 and is massive and thick.


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## mbrown2097 (Jun 22, 2008)

Just make sure you use the frequency assignment as the number that you enter. You will have to wait 5-10 seconds before the signal strength will show up.


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## kbz71 (Jun 19, 2008)

mbrown look how fast we became "Cool Members" the possibilities are endless now.:goodjob:


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