# Friends DSL nightmare:(



## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Friend decided to get DSL. Verizon said not at their address, but AT&T said they would using the verizon lines.

whats up with that?

anyhow AT&T did their thing and managed somehow to wipe out their entire phone service for 2 weeks

I should of just gone and helped.

Well phone and DSL now working kinda. When the DSL modem is on the phone is nearly unintelligble

The house is over a 100 years old and the phone lines a rats nest.

the filters dont appear to help....

would a whole house filter and new cables get them fixed? 

I think this will be my weekend project?

Are those 25 foot phone extension cables good enough to TRY a temporary arrangment bypassing the old house wiring?

With their phone service out 2 weeks NO ONE at AT&T bothered to say plug phone in interface. Of course AT&T CSRs are all in the phillipines

Ideally I could install a whole house filter aT THE INTERFACE, run a new line to the computer and leave the old phone wiring intact./


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

*Verizon said not at their address.* They decided to beleive an outside vendor.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Ahh if they use verizn lines what difference should it make?

Plus whatrever the speed difference, would such a marginal connection create tremendous noise on the line?

I have tried phones here unfiltered and althugh annoying its no big deal.

Calling parties oin my line couldnt hear the difference.

But this trouble is WAY worse. Can it be a tech issue? If so AT&T shouldnt of offered it to begin with..


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## cdru (Dec 4, 2003)

Bob Haller said:


> Friend decided to get DSL. Verizon said not at their address, but AT&T said they would using the verizon lines.
> 
> whats up with that?


AT&T is the CLEC, Verizon is the ILEC. Same thing applies to lines provided by Covad. Verizon owns the copper between the CO and house, and "rents" it to the CLEC to use.



> Well phone and DSL now working kinda. When the DSL modem is on the phone is nearly unintelligble
> 
> The house is over a 100 years old and the phone lines a rats nest.
> 
> ...


Do all phones sound bad? Your best bet would be to install a whole house filter. Attach the filter to the exisitng wiring. Then run a homerun directly from the NID to the modem. This homerun does not go through the filter. In a pinch, you can use one of the inside filters inside the NID, although it wasn't designed for exterior use.



> Are those 25 foot phone extension cables good enough to TRY a temporary arrangment bypassing the old house wiring?


Ideally you should use Cat3 or better wiring for the phones. Old 4-wire flat phone cable is bad for interference and cross-talk. At a minimum, it should be a round, twisted-pair cable for permanent connections, although the flat stuff can be used just as testing.


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

I suggest you go outside the house to the telephone inteface box. There is usually a jack that be plugged into. Plug in a filter, then plug in a phone that you know is in good working order (For example a phone from your house, not theirs). If the phone works fine outside, then take that same phone inside the house and plug in the same filter into a jack, then the test phone. If the phone now sounds crappy, then the inside wiring needs some help. If it sounds crappy at the outside box, then you need to call Verizon.

I had to get some troubleshooting help when I setup Qwest DSL service about 5 years ago at our old house. At one point the technician told me that the problem is almost never the inside wiring. If the phones worked fine before you signed up for DSL, then changing the wiring after you get DSL won't make any difference. As he put it, you've got our (Qwest) wires running all down the street and they are all many years old, so the little bit of loss from the hundred or so feet of crappy wires under your house rarely makes a difference.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Well things sound fine at the interface, but the inside phones are horrible. I replaced the line to the computer to the basement with catergory 5? the ethernet stuff.

This helped they arent getting knocked off line anymore.

I would have run a new line to the interface but some residents work nights and my hammer drill wouldnt of made their day. 2 concerte walls and the exisiting cable is run thru a hole drilled in a roof.

So I left the roll of cable and suggested they just get it physically in place. The house is over a 100 years old with very thick walls and lots of obstructions, maze of wires added forever ago.

hopefully in the next few days the whole house filter will arrive, and ALL phone lines will be new!

this turned into a lot more work than expected but there good friends will no bucks...

I should of just replaced everything from day one.


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

Glad to hear you figured out the problem. It can be more frustrating just trying to find the problem than fixing it.


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## stonecold (Feb 20, 2004)

see the trick was that crappy wiring at the nid that you call a rats nest is the problem .....

Here is what you should of done

called verizon from a cell phone order insdie wire maintance. ( through verizon communcitations) then disconnect everthing from the nid except the wire from the poll. 

Then call verizon to order verizon dsl.

Wait for the dsl to get there hook it up have it crash called verizon dsl not communcations up on the bad phone lines. they will send out a tech and the tech as long as insdie wire maintance is on the account will do everthing for free.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Tomorrow I am finishing replacement of all remaining phone cable with catergory 5, from the interface. the nice new DSL whole house filter arrived today too

The verizon tech was out and doesnt think its the inside wiring.although he said that without seeing it

Frankly I think verizon has a vested interest in seeing AT&T isnt working but it might not matter.

AT&T refuses to remove the $5 a month voicemail and has totally screwed up the bill its now over $250 but they cant provide a phone detail

Verizon NOW has DSL available at this address, AT&T is going to lose this customer

I know you shouldnt run DSL cable parrell with power lines but wonder if cable lines can be a problem? since they are shielded I guess it doesnt matter. The main phone line entering the home is ty wrapped to the cable tv line...

Since I am running all new cable its not a big issue but might be a appearance thing


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## stonecold (Feb 20, 2004)

Things to check is to get verizon to run noise and signal test with the inside wireing hooked up to the interface and then one with nothing but the line from the poll hooked up to the interface see if there are any better or worst. (assuming you still have old wiring. )

Bob importnat question have you check to see what your signal and noise margins are. 

and was verizon GTE or Bell Atlantic before the merger it will help identfy how to get to the modem stats.

ps. I know they have att dsl but verizon dictates what equipment they must use.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

thanks! Today I will replace ALL the remaining wiring, and see how it goes.

Verizon tech might have done noise test, he thought it was modem...

I feel bad family is good friends, they arent techiew type people, and worse yet it was ME who sold them on DSL


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## stonecold (Feb 20, 2004)

Here is why verizon dsl is now available at your friends address.

when the order was placed from ATT verizon had to verify loop lenght (how fair in terms of telelphone wireling you are from the c/o example I am only 2300 feet byfoot from my c/o but my loop lenght is 5500 with inside wireing.) So what happend is verizon database is nortorous for having bad numbers in there data base especially if you are in an EX-BA area over a EX-GTE area. A verizon tech came out ran the test from a big green box that is somewhere in there neghbor hood did a manula test then updated the data base. making it available.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Hey I will pass that along, buying AT&T got Verizon to make it available....

Well I worked there for hours, replaced everything from the interface onward. Raining blowing cold the outside stuff was the PITS

None of this made a bit of difference to the noise problem its still there loud as ever. DSL speed is way up so it wasnt a waste of time

I left one existing plain phone jack as it was. Connected or disconnected it didnt matter and because of later remodeling replacingf this jack will be a royal pain. it just for the phone so why bother.

the whole house filter works great, although the AT&T CSR never heard of such a thing

I put the filter in the basement, out of the weather, away from people mucking around, the neighborhood isnt the best, and mostly because it was so nasty outside. burr cpold to the bone...

anyhow verizon and AT&T are supposed to come out wonder what they will decide the problem is?

I just called them the noise is very noticeable even at this end


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

I could tell you were in over your head when you asked...


> Are those 25 foot phone extension cables good enough?


If you were anywhere near qualified to rewire someone's house, you wouldn't have had to ask in the first place.

Bob, with "friends" who have problems like that, you don't need any more enemas. If things were to go horribly wrong and disaster strikes, you could well be on the hook for damages, or worse. Just because you know the difference between RJ-11 and RJ-45 doesn't mean you are qualified to rewire their house.

You are in over your head. Tell your _"friends"_ to call in a pro.

Remember the _Peter Principle_?


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## stonecold (Feb 20, 2004)

well really Cat5 is old stuff now for telephones. Doown here Cat 6 ( has more twist in each pair) is the standard for inhouse wiring.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I am a pretty decent telephone tech, but admit my knowledge of DSL is limited. I have installed phone lines and such for over 30 years, but heck DSL is new around here and I am learning. Perhaps 15 years ago I had a business installing phones, quit because of too many filthy houses with scary dogs... geez most peoples homes are filled with junk, mine included :nono2: 

Only used one pair of catergory 5 so more wires doesnt matter to them.

I can remember well 9 or 10 years ago, didnt know anything about satellite tv

Get involved, find where to ask the appropiate questions, learned a lot and became a dealer. Decided outside work in freezing temperatures wasnt my idea of fun after losing a 100 pounds, but it was fun while it lasted.

Incidently I rewired most of my rental home before selling it, added tons of outlets, replaced everything with 3 prong grounded, upgraded everything to code GFCI wise.

It passed a middle group inspection and 2 intensive home inspections. :hurah: Biggest hassle was home inspectors disagreeing on wether a sump pump in a garage should be GFCI protected.Have 2 reports disagreeing on that

I dont do power line rewiring for friends but will do sat and phone upgrades. The most that can happen is a searching for sat message or no dial tone.

REAL CAREFUL about drilling in walls, had a friend who hit a live power line and nearly burnt down a house.

If I doidnt fix machines I would be a electrician. Wierdly I enjoy snaking wires thru walls I guess its the challenge but prefer doing my own home.

I actually enjoy finding and fixing troubles, guess thats why I have spent 30 years repairing office ewquiptement


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

AT&T blew it again, no techs showed up today I am going to call verizon and see if they will offer this family any sort of discount to dump at&T.....

their phones are noisey as ever. oh yeah they got a bill saying they owe over $275 with NO DETAILS of why.....

Might it be a noisey modem? Are they compatible? Could I take mine over there for testing to see if that quiets the noise?

YES the filter is properly installed!

The LAN light flickers occasionally but the new wiring speeded things up a lot and they arent getting knocked off line anymore.

I appreciate all the help


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Talked to Verizon tech support and will take my modem over there and try it.

Appears its almost certinally a bad modem when calling parties can hear the noise.

Learned a LOT from this experience


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

No go on modem My working fine modem is really noisey there too

The noise is heard at both ends, one should never hear the modem noise at the calling party end. that appears unusual.

Conclusions, its not the modem, as another known good one creates the same noise

Its not the inside wiring, as its all been replaced, except one run, and that lead doesnt effect noise wether its connected or disconnected.

Its not a filtering issue as we have installed a whole house filter and its no better than the individual one on the phone.

its not a computer issue, as the noise appears even with the ethernet connection unplugged.

I GUESS that leaves it a phone company problem unless theres something I am missing?

Perhaps bad cable between the house and CO?

This isnt a total loss I have learnmed a lot and gained new DSL troubleshooting skills


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

For the benefit of another with a toughie like me...

http://www.broadbandreports.com Is a excellent site their forums had a wonderful idea

I am going to take my known good modem, splitter, single DSL filter, UPS and one phone over there. Plug everything in at the interface. If the noise is still there whatever it is we are not the cause.

Elminates wierd ground loops, bad interior cables, all home wiring etc.

Just wish I had thought of this sooner


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## stonecold (Feb 20, 2004)

If you are still getting nosise on the line I would call verizon the phone company (not verizon online) and ***** about it. something is most likely wrong from the nid to the poll or in the big green box maybe but unlikly the c/o


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

They were busy today
Tuesday I am taking enough stuff over there that NOTHING will be common to their existing setup. if the noise is still there at the interface then theres no doubt its a verizon problem


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

My long-time motto: _If you're the helpful type, but don't have a real clue, don't get involved in other peoples problems._

Let them call someone who knows what the hell they are doing. You - just stay home and watch Bonanza reruns.

There's a lesson to be learned here.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Nick said:


> My long-time motto: _If you're the helpful type, but don't have a real clue, don't get involved in other peoples problems._
> 
> Let them call someone who knows what the hell they are doing. You - just stay home and watch Bonanza reruns.
> 
> There's a lesson to be learned here.


Nick, your wrong!

First getting involved helps others, espically for those who dont have the bucks to pay a pro.

Besides, I have learned a TON! The troubleshooting skills I have picked up will serve me a lifetime.

If I had never got involved years ago, would never have got E, did self install, became dealer, haunted several boards got VIP pass to satellite launch, met charlie.

life should be a learning experience. Those who dont get involved get left behind by technology....

Trust me, when I am done I will DEFINETELY have a clue!


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Nick, I changed my signature just for you!


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

Bob - I respect your perseverance. I think I understand where St. Nick is coming from, and I respect his position as well; but there are just far too many instances where we shy away from situations rather than jumping in and taking our best shot at helping out. Sure, there's always the risk that you'll muck things up and you might get sued, but what the hell, no guts, no glory, no bluechip stamps.

I'll always appreciate someone who goes out of their way, particularly the way you have over a long period of time, to help me, or someone else for that matter. Just too many people running around saying, "it's not my responsibility." One for all and all for one!!


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Look were all only here a short time One day God will take us ALL home. At 48 and having been thru some health crisis along the way thats vERY CLEAR to me. Weight loss surgery got me evaluating EVERYTHING!

The family of 4 survives on 15K a year income, their son just turned 16 and is using his grocery store job money to pay for DSL sibce its useful for school work. Bottom line they DONT have hundreds of bucks the provider would of charged to rewire their home for DSL

While were here I believe in a lifetime of learning stuff, it adds to my general knowledge and might help ME in the future After this I will be a EXPERT at DSL noise troubleshooting

If more people got involved this world be would be a much better place!

Besides which I USED to be a E dealer so working in peoples homes doesnt scare me off, and I repair machines for a living, and enjoy fixing things to a point Heck I was mostrly a self taught E installer... Did watch a video

I am a self taught computer repair too


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Oh I help a old friend with her inner city minestries. Just before easter I picked up 10,000 candy eggs spread over 100s of miles for the hunt, provided her a computer ( rehapped old cheap one) and provide AOL access. me and a good frien installed a rear seat and safety screen in her commercial van, so she can take her baby along. 

she is a new mom at 48 now THATS a challenge!

Give things back while your alive! You will FEEL GOOD at the end of the day.

Well perhaps good and tired

I would love to volunteer for habitat for humanity but just dont have the time

To help and learn more home remodeling skills!


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

Bob, I support you and agree with you. For one thing, phones aren't all that big a deal to work with. The biggest problem I ever ran into was a house that didn't use the standard colors in the wiring, and I had to figure out which one related to what. I've gotten into things that I'm sure others would have backed away from, but I have usually learned something, and in the end I usually have gotten the computer or phone or whatever to work. The people I help out are usually just grateful for the attempt and aren't going to sue me if something doesn't work out exactly right the first time.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Yeah this family wouldnt sue me no matter what occured. Its my wifes best friend, jen ran up such a cell phone bill talking with her we gave the lady a phone. The 10 bucks a month is cheap unlimited talk time for them. plus useful for her. her son 16 at the grocery store got a verizon cell too now mom can talk to him airtime free, to keep a eye on him.

most folks who dont have $$ are grateful for anything others do.

growing up in the 1960s there was just me my mom and my grandma. we had zip money, i remember a teacher commenting that I always wore 2 shirts. After class I explained we were broke. It was my only 2 decent ****s My parents split when I was 1 week old noi child support 

Coming from such a background your attitude is perhaps different. When something broke back then we didnt have the money to replace it.

Yesterday I dropped my wifes old car at a buddies for his dauighter. a 1993 tracer with 125,000 miles. its old but was well maintained. deemed safe by the dealer a month or so ago. I told my buddy to take it to his mechanic, and if they want it its free, bt they must use it.

if not I will sell it off or give it to the kidney foundation. his daughter kimmy is very nice, and could use a car. 

Spent most of life BROKE, spend rest of life helping others where I canm

Jen is thrilled to get a NEW chevy Cobalt, nice car for under 11 grand with incentives


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

As a update to the DSL noise its a verizon problem. connecting a modem at the interface with a phone the noise is always there. tried 2 seperate modems too.
verizon repair says it might be a grounding issue at there end but since its a AT&T customer they must wait for notification from them.

I suspect Verizon techs take a rather relaxed attitude about others leasing their lines when things break. 

If it had been a Verizon customer it would of been fixed long ago..........


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