# harsh hates Windows



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Installing and using Linux is trivial compared to Windows and it can be themed to look and operate like Windows. Of course you can't run specific Windows applications but with the Linux library of freeware, that may not be necessary. I'm running the latest release of Debian on a seven year old machine and it boots fully from an SSD in 23 seconds. My work machine that is four years old (same RAM and mass storage capacity) takes almost two minutes to fully boot from a hard drive.

Not looking into Linux is what doesn't make sense given these new requirements.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> Installing and using Linux is trivial compared to Windows and it can be themed to look and operate like Windows. Of course you can't run specific Windows applications but with the Linux library of freeware, that may not be necessary. I'm running the latest release of Debian on a seven year old machine and it boots fully from an SSD in 23 seconds. My work machine that is four years old (same RAM and mass storage capacity) takes almost two minutes to fully boot from a hard drive.
> 
> Not looking into Linux is what doesn't make sense given these new requirements.


He had a potential virus, so I had him download malware bytes and scan... first off, it took like 10 minutes of explaining how to download and install it... he kept telling me it doesn't do anything! it looks like it installed! Turned out he had just played a VIDEO on MBs site showing how to install it thinking that was the installer. Don't even ask how long it took to explain how to start a scan. And you expect him to run Linux?

I'm not worried. He ain't gonna run Linux. It took him 10+ yrs to upgrade to a 4K TV, he's still running an N router even though his network doesn't work, and his Outlook hasn't worked in 2 yrs. He just bought a 77" OLED based on my recommendation and a few weeks later he's still watching 720i on it. He'll just stick with Windows 10 forever most likely.

I don't even want to send him the link to the Health Checker cuz it'll take me like 30 minutes to explain how to download, install and use it lol. And I'd rather watch the new Liam Neeson movie tonight.

23 seconds on a SSD??? Sheesh that's slow... my Windows PC boots up from power off to desktop READY in like 2-3 seconds. Literally.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> And you expect him to run Linux?


I expect that pretty much anyone can install and operate Linux without a whole lot of handholding. The instructions tend to be much more end user oriented because that is who is typically doing the installation. There are numerous installation videos on Youtube and illustrated recipes for installing popular Linux distributions. Several of the popular distributions are available in a "live CD" form that boots the complete operating system fully from a CD (or USB stick) and can be installed by double clicking an icon once booted.

I suspect that something fresh that nobody has any preconceived notions about is perhaps easier to get one's head around than something that changes every five or six years just for the sake of change (providing new revenue streams to consultancies, computer learning companies and dummies book publishers).

UEFI and modern BIOS boot priority schemes have made booting from other than the C: drive more troublesome, but not impossible.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Davenlr said:


> First, with the chip shortage, its impossible to find a video card at a reasonable price to build a new system, so Microsoft can just forget it.


DIRECTX 12 was introduced in 2014 so pretty much any modern display adapter made in the last five years should support it. As for CPUs (and GPUs for that matter), AMD has been delivering them at a much higher pace since AMD uses TSMC as their fab shop (who is a generation or two ahead of Intel in terms of their CPU nanometer process capabilities). While Intel perhaps still rules the roost on power efficiency, they're clearly not the only CPU game in town anymore.

Positive change clearly isn't coming from Microsoft at this point. If we want things to get better, we're going to have to initiate the change ourselves.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> I expect that pretty much anyone can install and operate Linux without a whole lot of handholding. The instructions tend to be much more end user oriented because that is who is typically doing the installation. There are numerous installation videos on Youtube and illustrated recipes for installing popular Linux distributions.


Install an operating system? Most users have never installed nor have a desire to install an operating system. Buy it and use it. Some end users may believe that they have installed an OS due to the setup steps they took when powering on their PC. Most end users have a computer for other reasons than to even think about the operating system. The easiest to install OS is the one that comes pre-installed.

The division between operating systems is clear. Home users are most likely to choose a pre-installed OS supported by a monolith like Windows or Apple. Mobile/Portable users can also choose Windows or Apple but Android is winning in that category. Linux is winning in the server room where the command line is a preferred user interface. If I wanted to do one thing and do one thing well I'd choose Linux.

For people who install an operating system every week spinning up a Linux machine isn't hard - and it may even be preferred. Send me an ISO and I'll have a virtual machine running within an hour. That is where all of the Linux machines I have in operation have come from ... dedicated built for one purpose servers. If the vendor's software requires Windows spinning up a Windows virtual machine is just as easy (just add licensing). But for the end user? Few are interested in installing an operating system.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> If they come at the cost of having to buy a machine that is orders of magnitude faster, are they really a "performance improvements"? Sounds more like paddling furiously to keep up with the bloat.
> 
> Speaking of that, how can they claim that it will run in 4GB of RAM?


Exactly why you are giving my dad too much credit thinking he can run Linux.

He looked at the high level bullet points of a 1Ghz CPU with 2 cores and 4GB of RAM and said he's golden. My mom has a crappy desktop with 4GB and it takes her PC 3 mins to boot up and runs 70% CPU "at idle" and he thinks that's "working".

Here's how the convo went:

D: I read the article, all I need is 4GB of RAM
Me: Did you see the part about DirectX12?
D: What's that?
Me: What about TPM and Secure Boot?
D: What's that?

That's when he got all mad and said he wasn't going to buy a new PC and if it didn't work on his PC, he'll switch to Linux.

Again, if you can't even click on a link, download an installer and run it without getting confused, how are they going to run all the crazy command lines on Linux?

He was the same way about the Windows 10 upgrade. And what happened?

He ended up converting his 7 pro install to a home install, having 6! different anti-virus and malware programs going, broke his Outlook, and his install runs 30% CPU at idle with hundreds of processes.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Ive been using computers since Scientific Atlanta and their 2Kb built it yourself kit, where you had to hand enter a star trek game by hand using the keyboard. No saving either. Power failed, you entered the game again. I tried Linux, several types, and never could figure out how to install a program. TAR? Ok, great. What do I do with it? Think I managed once to get a program to install, and then it wouldnt run because something was missing. Wiped the hard drive, and put windows on it.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Install an operating system? Most users have never installed nor have a desire to install an operating system. Buy it and use it.


When an arguably minor upgrade necessarily involves buying a new computer just to keep up, I expect that more than a few are going to give it serious consideration.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> Few are interested in installing an operating system.


And even fewer can install it correctly. Getting a Windows 10 PC up and running with the default options isn't really "correct". Adjusting all the privacy, security settings and turning off some of the unnecessary bloat.

If you install 20 programs and never "clean them up", you'd have hundreds of processes running, 20+ icons in your system tray, etc. A lot of software, even from reputable places installs a lot of additional junk.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> When an arguably minor upgrade necessarily involves buying a new computer just to keep up, I expect that more than a few are going to give it serious consideration.


What are you talking about dude? Linux / Java / Open Source is like the least backwards compatible thing in history. Try explain to my dad that before he can install Open Office, he needs to install Homebrew and have a specific version of it otherwise he needs to upgrade this other thing and use pip or npm, etc. He wouldn't have a clue.

My current job is a Java developer on Mac / Linux, and I'm currently working on a project to upgrade the version on our main app framework, it broke like 300 unit tests.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Davenlr said:


> I tried Linux, several types, and never could figure out how to install a program. TAR? Ok, great. What do I do with it?


Fast forward 20 or so years and most popular Linux distributions have full GUI package managers that uniformly present thousands of the available software packages.

With Windows, every software installation and upgrade looks substantially different from any other installation and as Microsoft severs more and more of their backwards compatibility, the question of whether or not your favorite software will still run becomes a bigger issue.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> Fast forward 20 or so years and most popular Linux distributions have full GUI package managers that uniformly present thousands of the available software packages.
> 
> With Windows, every software installation and upgrade looks substantially different from any other installation and as Microsoft severs more and more of their backwards compatibility, the question of whether or not your favorite software will still run becomes a bigger issue.


Sounds like you haven't used Windows in a decade or two. For lower end apps, those are all in the app store and look and work identical and all auto update in the background.

For bigger apps, those are all MSIs and again look and work identically. Obviously bigger, more complex apps like Photoshop or Visual Studio will have more steps...

Compare that to homebrew, pip, npm and god knows how many different installers there are on Linux.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> What are you talking about dude? Linux / Java / Open Source is like the least backwards compatible thing in history.


In the case of Java apps running in combination with modern web browsers (on all platforms), there's no compatibility since the interface between the browsers and Java (NPAPI) has been removed.

Javascript/Typescript are the new client-side browser scripting tools and the only thing they have in common with Java is being interpreted programming languages.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Sounds like you haven't used Windows in a decade or two. For lower end apps, those are all in the app store and look and work identical and all auto update in the background.


The Windows App Store has been around for six years. It is true that I've never used it but that's largely because most of the applications I install aren't available there.


> For bigger apps, those are all MSIs and again look and work identically. Obviously bigger, more complex apps like Photoshop or Visual Studio will have more steps...


Everything I've installed apparently qualifies as bigger and more complex. I recently installed a package that required using MSIEXEC!


> Compare that to homebrew, pip, npm and god knows how many different installers there are on Linux.


Each Linux distribution has its preferred package manager and that rarely changes. If you want a different one for any reason, you typically have that option. Every installation starts the same and looks pretty much like every other installation regardless of the package complexity or size. In Windows, MSIs come with different versions of different installers and they often don't look like Windows applications of the day.

If people are down with making substantial changes to their computer environment every five or six years, more power to them but for those who refuse to read/listen and follow instructions, that's surely going to be a shock to the system come upgrade time.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> When an arguably minor upgrade necessarily involves buying a new computer just to keep up, I expect that more than a few are going to give it serious consideration.


Are you living in the US? In 2021? If not, welcome to the disposable world. The life cycle of our electronics has shrunk considerably. Sure, for the "old school" or just plain "old" people it is obscene to need to replace working electronics every few years due to some update, but that is life in America in 2021. Cloud storage and backups so one doesn't lose too much when changing devices. Cloud services by subscription instead of install forever software. Welcome to the 21st Century.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> Each Linux distribution has its preferred package manager and that rarely changes.


That is the biggest problem with Linux ... multiple distributions from multiple sources. The open source nature just opens the system to yet another flavor to choose from.

The Linux I work with are purpose built machines that were NOT built to be an operating system for multiple unrelated programs they were built to serve one task. Generally as servers providing core services on a network. The flavor of Linux wasn't chosen by me it was chosen by the manufacturer of the software we actually wanted to purchase. (For example, we bought a DNS/DHCP/NTP/etc server that happens to run on a Linux core instead of a Windows core. I don't care what flavor of Linux it runs on as long as the software vendor supports the equipment we purchased.)

An end user choosing to replace Windows with Linux will most likely be disappointed with their options ... and no, running Windows on Linux isn't a solution. Windows 10 will still be at end of support in 2025 whether it is running on bare metal or on Linux. Linux doesn't fix that.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> Are you living in the US? In 2021? If not, welcome to the disposable world. The life cycle of our electronics has shrunk considerably. Sure, for the "old school" or just plain "old" people it is obscene to need to replace working electronics every few years due to some update, but that is life in America in 2021. Cloud storage and backups so one doesn't lose too much when changing devices. Cloud services by subscription instead of install forever software. Welcome to the 21st Century.


Yup. My dad is mad that he needs to buy a new $1500 AVR to pass 4K to his new $3500 4K TV. Yup, he was on 1080P up until this past fathers day. I told him he could just use the TV apps for now... nope... still hasn't gotten around to the 30 second task of signing in lol. If he did that, he would find that he would need to finally upgrade his N router since it's only delivering ~10Mpbs down to his TV. Why he hasn't spent the $150 to get a better router? *shrug* he thinks the 30 second buffering he has now is "normal".

Don't get me wrong, I don't go upgrading my tech every few years either. My TV is a 2016 LG OLED and my AVR is a 2015 4K one. Nothing to upgrade there until I move to a new house and can fit a bigger TV.

Also have a Wifi5 AC router. It delivers ~500Mbps to my phone, so no real need to upgrade to Wifi6/6E yet. Definitely not for $500 lol.

I tweaked my PC to pass the Windows 11 checks... and its a Coffee Lake with a Samsung 970 Pro and 32GB of RAM, so not super crazy performance improvement going to Rocket Lake. Alder Lake + 10nm + DDR5 + PCI 4.0 / 5.0 might be a worthwhile. I could double the speed of my Sammy 970 by going to a PCI 4.0 SSD or maybe they'll have 5.0 drives by then.

I was on my iPhone 6S until last year when it stopped working correctly with T-Mobile. iPhone hasn't been a worthwhile upgrade in like 5 or 6 years either unless you only care about the minor yearly camera upgrade. All Apple has done over the years is tweak the aesthetics.


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

SledgeHammer said:


> Yup. My dad is mad that he needs to buy a new $1500 AVR to pass 4K to his new $3500 4K TV. Yup, he was on 1080P up until this past fathers day. I told him he could just use the TV apps for now... nope... still hasn't gotten around to the 30 second task of signing in lol. If he did that, he would find that he would need to finally upgrade his N router since it's only delivering ~10Mpbs down to his TV. Why he hasn't spent the $150 to get a better router? *shrug* he thinks the 30 second buffering he has now is "normal".
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't go upgrading my tech every few years either. My TV is a 2016 LG OLED and my AVR is a 2015 4K one. Nothing to upgrade there until I move to a new house and can fit a bigger TV.
> 
> ...


I would suggest a Sony 1080 AVR ( it upscales Everything to 4K) @ $598 that what I use for my New Sony XR7780J --I bought the 1080 in 2017 -long before upgrading the TV --I'm 72 and ay least you try to help your Dad --if he doesn't want it --LOL


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

James Long said:


> Cloud storage and backups so one doesn't lose too much when changing devices..


Macrium reflect, local storage backups, perfectly good computer which came installed with Windows 7. Still running Office 2007 (and no annual rental fee either). Added ram, upgraded video, added SSDs. I should throw that out and pay $1500 for a comparable computer just to run a new OS? Hahahaha.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

WestDC said:


> I would suggest a Sony 1080 AVR ( it upscales Everything to 4K) @ $598 that what I use for my New Sony XR7780J --I bought the 1080 in 2017 -long before upgrading the TV --I'm 72 and ay least you try to help your Dad --if he doesn't want it --LOL


I agree. I use a Sony STR-DN1080 AVR in my Family Room setup.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Sure, for the "old school" or just plain "old" people it is obscene to need to replace working electronics every few years due to some update, but that is life in America in 2021.


As I said, we as users have to stand up and say "no more" by voting with our feet.

Since Microsoft played a huge part in fostering this problem of upgradeitis with their many virtual machines and bloatware, maybe it is time to look elsewhere for a better steward.

This doesn't happen overnight but shifting the daily routine to an alternative platform is a good place to start.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> As I said, we as users have to stand up and say "no more" by voting with our feet.
> 
> Since Microsoft played a huge part in fostering this problem of upgradeitis with their many virtual machines and bloatware, maybe it is time to look elsewhere for a better steward.
> 
> This doesn't happen overnight but shifting the daily routine to an alternative platform is a good place to start.


Wow lol. I've never seen somebody with such a bitter hatred of a company as you. Microsoft must have killed your dog and stolen your Camaro. Your vendetta against Microsoft will be the plot for John Wick 17.

Maybe we should all go to Apple products? Oh wait, those get locked down more and more with every revision and constantly have breaking changes. Oh wait, they're all un-upgradable! At my job, we were originally using Catalina to develop our product, but a bunch of stuff like VPN stopped working with it, so we migrated to Big Sur. Oh wait, now we can't develop directly on the Mac at ALL because they changed the version of Java and its not compatible anymore. Now we have to develop inside of a VM on the Mac so we can control the tool chain. A VM on the Mac? Ooops, now the company had to buy us all new laptops cuz we can't do our jobs with only 16GB of RAM. Why didn't they just buy us more RAM? Oh wait... you can't upgrade Apple products. How odd that Windows can run with only 4GB! Can't run Fiddler anymore on the Mac either since they locked that down too. That's going to be your vendetta in John Wick 18.

John Wick 19 will be your vendetta against the HDMI organization because they keep making you buy new cables every few years and upgrading components. You are annoyed cuz your VCR can't do 8K @ 120Hz!!

John Wick 20 will be your vendetta against the car industry since you are bitter about still having to drive your '69 Camaro cuz all these new fangled cars over the past 20 years and their darn 'puters, you can't work on them anymore.

Jon Wick 21 will be your vendetta against the WiFi industry since you just bought a WiFi6 router and a day later they announced Wifi6E!

John Wick 22 will be your vendetta against the cell phone industry over this whole 3G, 4G, 5G fiasco.

Sadly, you aren't doing a very good job with your campaign. Linux STILL has < 1% market share. I think you are going to have to ramp up your campaign, maybe branch outside of dbstalk? Maybe start an anti-MS youtube channel? Try to talk to the pres?

Yup. Microsoft "invented" upgrade-itis .

Btw, here on planet earth, folks have already figured out ways to get Windows 11 to install on older machines. Sure, the process currently isn't for the faint of heart, but probably easier then converting 8B people to Linux.

Not to mention most people probably just need to enable TPM in their bios because they've bought a PC in the last 3 or 4 years anyways. And you can extend that back another couple of years for systems that have a TPM header and go buy the module for $20 once the price comes down, etc.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

harsh said:


> As I said, we as users have to stand up and say "no more" by voting with our feet.
> 
> Since Microsoft played a huge part in fostering this problem of upgradeitis with their many virtual machines and bloatware, maybe it is time to look elsewhere for a better steward.
> 
> This doesn't happen overnight but shifting the daily routine to an alternative platform is a good place to start.


I have to agree - I gave up on desktop PCs for space reasons, plus I like bringing my familar computing environment with me when I travel - even if the batteries don't run it as long as it used to. Modern laptops don't give up very much, plus I'm much less tempted to try to upgrade them (even if it is possible). I maxed out the RAM in my current laptop, and upgraded to the SSD 1 TB drive - the uptake in time-from boot to password convinced me to try it on other PCs - I have an OLD Dell Inspiron that came with VISTA installed - It had been updated to Win2000 , WInXP, Win7and then to WIn 10 Pro (32 bit - although it can do 64 bit on 4GB RAM) (it needed a BIOS update) , but replacing the hard drives with a 500 GB SSD did more for performance increases than the RAM did !


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Wow lol. I've never seen somebody with such a bitter hatred of a company as you.


What I have a bitter hatred of is the idea that Microsoft has been or is aiming toward being a good steward of computing technology. I have a pretty good idea of where we could be if Microsoft hadn't spent so much of its resources trying to dismiss (or outright eliminate) its competition and it sickens me.

Computers shouldn't be monitoring or controlling us. It is supposed to be the other way around.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> What I have a bitter hatred of is the idea that Microsoft has been or is aiming toward being a good steward of computing technology. I have a pretty good idea of where we could be if Microsoft hadn't spent so much of its resources trying to dismiss (or outright eliminate) its competition and it sickens me.
> 
> Computers shouldn't be monitoring or controlling us. It is supposed to be the other way around.


Utter nonsense. You seem to live in a whole different world then the rest of us. You want to beat Microsoft? Build something better then them. Plenty of companies have.

Does Microsoft own search? Nope. Google built something better then them and they own search.
Does Microsoft own browser? Nope. Google again.
Does Microsoft own cloud? Nope. Amazon does.
Does Microsoft own mobile? Nope. Google owns the majority and Apple owns the rest.
Does Microsoft own console? Sony does with Microsoft about 20% behind.
Does Microsoft own social media? Sorry, big fat no yet again.
Does Microsoft own e-mail? Nope. Google again.
Does Microsoft own voice assistant? Does ANYBODY use Cortana?
Does Microsoft own finance web site? Nope. Crazy enough, that's the only thing left of Yahoo.
Does Microsoft own software development? Definitely not. Java, Python, JavaScript dwarf C#. No "serious" enterprise company uses anything Microsoft.
Does Microsoft own database? Best I can find is that SQL is #3 behind Oracle and MySQL
Does Microsoft own anything in home theater, music, transportation, movies, hardware, AI, TV? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no...

Other bit of nonsense about Microsoft spying on you... sure they do... and so do Google and Amazon and Apple. Google and Amazon know what you had for breakfast this morning and what time you last used the bathroom and the size of your underwear.

Microsoft owns desktop OS and Office productivity. That's pretty much it.

And, no, I'm not a Microsoft fan-boy. Yes, I use Windows and Office at home and I was a Windows developer for ~20+ years. In Feb of this year, I changed jobs and switched over to Java because the companies that still use Microsoft stuff are joke companies that don't like to pay market salaries.

At my new job, I have to use a Mac for development. Definitely wouldn't use Mac Os if I had a choice. Something so basic like being able to see all the instances of an app in a "task bar / dock"? Nope... Jobs STILL hasn't figured that out.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> This doesn't happen overnight but shifting the daily routine to an alternative platform is a good place to start.


You seem to be pushing BetaMax and HD DVD in a world that has moved on. Have fun with that, but try to stay away from the tin foil hat stories.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> John Wick 20 will be your vendetta against the car industry since you are bitter about still having to drive your '69 Camaro cuz all these new fangled cars over the past 20 years and their darn 'puters, you can't work on them anymore.


Well, THIS is worthy of a movie. I am having to pay $1700 for a fricking clutch plate because you have to disassemble 1/2 the engine to get to it. Its been in the dealer for a week already. No one except the dealer would even touch the job. Where are the spark plugs anyway? Havent found them yet. I miss my 307.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> You seem to be pushing BetaMax and HD DVD in a world that has moved on.


You seem to be holding the opinion that Linux is only good for firewalls and web servers and while it does both of those very well, it can also be a full-on modern desktop operating system that is more stable, more secure and a lot less resource hungry than Windows (all things that Microsoft has a track record of treating rather poorly).

No, it isn't ideal for every situation, but it is getting closer rather than further as Windows seems to be headed.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It is going to take more than blathering hatred on the Internet to shift the market to your preference.

Are you 100% Windows free or do you still run Windows on some machines or a Linux machine?
Are you 100% Microsoft free or do you still run Microsoft products?

There is a catch 22 here. If you are continuing to use Windows/Microsoft then you have failed to vote with your wallet. If you are 100% Windows/Microsoft free then you are giving your opinion of an OS that you do not use. No good conversation can come out of hate.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Plenty of companies have.


The difference being that for other companies to build a profile (not of preferences/proclivities but of your personal metadata -- e-mail, address, phone number, age, etc), you formally give them the information they want. Microsoft would have you come as close as possible to telling them everything so they can upload it when you activate. Microsoft is clearly not alone in this but that certainly doesn't justify harvesting and storing that data on their servers. The only thing that most Linux distros get to know about you is your full name (maybe) what software you've installed.

Ever looked at the metadata in an Office document?

Harvesting data while browsing isn't what you would hope for but you don't even have to browse the Internet for Microsoft to begin reaping. I'm substantially convinced that this was one of the major motivations behind the registry.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> You seem to be holding the opinion that Linux is only good for firewalls and web servers and while it does both of those very well, it can also be a full-on modern desktop operating system that is more stable, more secure and a lot less resource hungry than Windows (all things that Microsoft has a track record of treating rather poorly).
> 
> No, it isn't ideal for every situation, but it is getting closer rather than further as Windows seems to be headed.


Less resource hungry? You JUST stated above that it takes your Linux machine 23 seconds to boot up to idle. Cool. It takes my Windows 10 PC 2 - 3 seconds to do that. Linux doesn't track you? Ever heard of Ubuntu? That's one of the most popular Linux distros and it certainly tracks more then your name.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> It is going to take more than blathering hatred on the Internet to shift the market to your preference.


What's hilarious with this guy is that more people still use IE11 then Linux. He claims that everybody he's ever met uses Linux and no Windows. Tin foil hats indeed. Maybe Billy Gates had one of his affairs with an old GF?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> There is a catch 22 here. If you are continuing to use Windows/Microsoft then you have failed to vote with your wallet. If you are 100% Windows/Microsoft free then you are giving your opinion of an OS that you do not use. No good conversation can come out of hate.


It starts with saying no to any version of Windows you can't run on a perfectly good computer and extends to Office (that won't run because Microsoft uses their goofy versioning scheme to rule that it must be incompatible -- remember why they skipped Windows 9?).

It won't happen overnight but it can happen if that's what users and enterprises make clear that they want. The EU has been pretty active in trying to rein in some of the activities on behalf of their member countries. Change cannot happen if everyone decides that they're hopes and dreams can't matter.

For those who may be feeling a little bit guilty about not having auditioned Linux in a while, the Ventoy application allows you to copy ISOs to a flash drive and creates a boot menu from them. I usually have three or four live Linux CDs on my Ventoy stick to help with salvaging corrupt Windows filesystems or to remove Windows passwords.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> It is going to take more than blathering hatred on the Internet to shift the market to your preference.
> 
> Are you 100% Windows free or do you still run Windows on some machines or a Linux machine?
> Are you 100% Microsoft free or do you still run Microsoft products?
> ...


I doubt he uses Windows, much less ever seen a Windows box any time in the past decade since he isn't familiar with the Microsoft store and he thinks the registry is used for tracking you.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> It starts with saying no to any version of Windows you can't run on a perfectly good computer and extends to Office (that won't run because Microsoft uses their goofy versioning scheme to rule that it must be incompatible -- remember why they skipped Windows 9?).
> 
> It won't happen overnight but it can happen if that's what users and enterprises make clear that they want. The EU has been pretty active in trying to rein in some of the activities on behalf of their member countries. Change cannot happen if everyone decides that they're hopes and dreams can't matter.
> 
> For those who may be feeling a little bit guilty about not having auditioned Linux in a while, the Ventoy application allows you to copy ISOs to a flash drive and creates a boot menu from them. I usually have three or four live Linux CDs on my Ventoy stick to help with salvaging corrupt Windows filesystems or to remove Windows passwords.


So why aren't they? Still haven't heard any explanation from you on why less then 1% of the population uses Linux. You keep ignoring the question.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Less resource hungry? You JUST stated above that it takes your Linux machine 23 seconds to boot up to idle. Cool. It takes my Windows 10 PC 2 - 3 seconds to do that.


How long does it take your computer to perform a restart? Waking from sleep or hybernation is different from a cold boot. Many modern Linux distros can suspend or hibernate as well.

Resource hungry is needing 8GB of RAM and an i7 to get reasonable performance running real applications. The design team where I used to work appointed one of their members to come in early and turn on their computers every morning because the i7 workstations with 32GB of RAM and 2TB M.2 SSDs were taking upwards of 15 minutes to become responsive after being turned on. The first invocation of Autodesk's Inventor would take quite a while because of all of the runtimes and virtual machines that needed to load.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> So why aren't they?


They're afraid of poking the bear of course. Where did you get your 1% market share figure?

What do you suppose the chances are that Windows 10 becomes the next Windows 7 that Microsoft has to go through two cycles plus some hard-wired obsolescence to eradicate?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

What are the chances that Linux will have a larger market share than Windows 10 by 2025? Many will migrate existing machines to Windows 11, many will replace their machines in the normal course of obsolescence. A few will hold on to their Windows XP machines until the hardware no longer boots (as well as their Windows 7 and Windows 10 machines). But except for the stubborn or those with special needs people will move on to whatever is current from Microsoft.

The majority of computer users are not interested in installing and maintaining an operating system. They are going to buy a machine with pre-installed Windows and let the OS take care of itself. And when that machine stops working they will buy the next one. That is how most people function in today's world. Sorry if that doesn't meet your standards.

The only way "Linux" will become more popular than Windows is with Microsoft running on a Linux kernel. Supported by a large software company with massive resources. Sold pre-installed. That is how other operating systems are winning in their categories. Not by asking individual end users to choose a flavor and install it themselves.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Welcome to the OS Religion War.... 2021 edition. 

Should I mention that the mobile operating system Android is based on a modified version of the Linux kernel and other open source software? Also MacOS is based upon the BSD code base?

This is getting to the point of "how the sausage is made", and if you ask most users, they don't care about the "details" about what OS is what. All they care about is that the computer runs their web browser, Microsoft Office, and maybe their email client.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> How long does it take your computer to perform a restart? Waking from sleep or hybernation is different from a cold boot. Many modern Linux distros can suspend or hibernate as well.
> 
> Resource hungry is needing 8GB of RAM and an i7 to get reasonable performance running real applications. The design team where I used to work appointed one of their members to come in early and turn on their computers every morning because the i7 workstations with 32GB of RAM and 2TB M.2 SSDs were taking upwards of 15 minutes to become responsive after being turned on. The first invocation of Autodesk's Inventor would take quite a while because of all of the runtimes and virtual machines that needed to load.


2 - 3 seconds from a cold boot. I don't use hibernate. 15 minutes to turn on an i7 with 32GB and a M.2? Hitting the sauce a bit early, aren't we?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> They're afraid of poking the bear of course.


What brand of tin foil hat do you wear?



harsh said:


> Where did you get your 1% market share figure?


Statistica. Let me guess, they're part of your conspiracy to keep Linux down?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark Holtz said:


> Welcome to the OS Religion War.... 2021 edition.


What war? . 80% market share is hardly a war.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> The only way "Linux" will become more popular than Windows is with Microsoft running on a Linux kernel. Supported by a large software company with massive resources. Sold pre-installed. That is how other operating systems are winning in their categories. Not by asking individual end users to choose a flavor and install it themselves.


Doesn't seem like that's worked out for Apple too well. Granted, 15% > 1%.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> The only way "Linux" will become more popular than Windows is with Microsoft running on a Linux kernel. Supported by a large software company with massive resources. Sold pre-installed. That is how other operating systems are winning in their categories. Not by asking individual end users to choose a flavor and install it themselves.


My former "abusers"  were a Microsoft / C# / Azure / SQL shop. When I was looking for a new job, I couldn't find a C# job or an Azure job or a SQL job because those technologies aren't widely used by companies that are hiring. They're used by dinosaur companies that run low ball H1 shops.

I keep in touch with a few other victims from the abusers who are also looking. So far, I haven't convinced them to abandon Microsoft for their new jobs and they're not finding much and/or finding a few crap companies. Doesn't sound like they are looking as aggressively as I was though.

Harsh doesn't seem capable of differentiating what people do at work vs. what people do at home. You are spot on that 99% of people aren't going around doing clean installs of Windows or any other OS.

Although I am forced to use a Mac at work and I have an iPhone, I would never use a Mac at home. The MacOs dock sucks, multiple instances are handled extremely poorly, and the Office ports suck and Mac lacks basic functionality like an easy to use Notepad++ type app.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> What are the chances that Linux will have a larger market share than Windows 10 by 2025?


We'll have to wait and see how frustrated people get.


> The majority of computer users are not interested in installing and maintaining an operating system.


This will open doors for alternatives that don't feel the need to force you to buy a learn a "new" OS every few years. As long as your software still runs and you can still get a capable browser, who needs new?


> The only way "Linux" will become more popular than Windows is with Microsoft running on a Linux kernel. Supported by a large software company with massive resources.


Large companies will follow the money. Noticed how much interest IBM has in their namesake computers these days? The marketplace is projected to be shrinking for the next few years according to the graphs over at Statista.

Might doesn't make right.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

harsh said:


> Might doesn't make right.


Might may not make right but until weakened or eliminated it dictates policy.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> My former "abusers"  were a Microsoft / C# / Azure / SQL shop. When I was looking for a new job, I couldn't find a C# job or an Azure job or a SQL job because those technologies aren't widely used by companies that are hiring.


That's been the graduate's lament for as long as I can remember -- not finding work in the languages that they learned in favor of old dinosaurs. When I was in college, everyone wanted to change the world using Turbo Pascal but we can see where that went.

While many enterprises are looking for programmers in various "new wave" languages (Javascript, Go, Rust, Python, Swift), there are quite a few that have chosen not to follow Microsoft's parade of programming language and database engine recommendations and have kept their old code (FORTRAN, PHP, COBOL and even BASIC) going. Those who vested themselves in the various C derivatives have never found the job market not all that "hip" (outside of certain verticals like gaming).

It is interesting to note that Linus Torvalds is talking about developing new modules of the Linux kernel in RUST (the old code remaining in C because neither the language nor the code itself is broken).

Of course the computer user shouldn't be exposed to any of the underpinnings.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> Although I am forced to use a Mac at work and I have an iPhone, I would never use a Mac at home. The MacOs dock sucks, multiple instances are handled extremely poorly, and the Office ports suck and Mac lacks basic functionality like an easy to use Notepad++ type app.


I use a Mac at work and have an iMac at home + a PC I built has Windows 10 installed on one NVMe and MAC OS Catalina installed on the other NVMe (Hackintosh). I'll probably never get another Apple computer as they are slowly making upgrades impossible. A 21.5" iMac we recently bought at work to use as a FileMaker Pro server needed a memory upgrade from 8 GB to 32 GB. It is possible but to do it but you have to remove the glass panel which is on with double stick tape so you have to have special tool to cut through it. Once you get that removed you have to remove the display, the hard drive, the speakers, the logic board, and the video card just to get to the memory modules. Not all iMacs are like that but each new version gets closer and closer to it. Along with permanent RAM modules that cannot be upgraded. I have not seen that on the iMacs but I know it is that way in some laptops.

As far a good text editor like Notepad ++ I'll remind you that it is not included with Windows. It is a 3rd party application. On the Mac you can use BB Edit with the same type features you have in Notepadd ++. The free version of BB Edit used to be Text Wrangler but they discontinued that but they have a free version of BB Edit with the same feature set as Text Wrangler that I use on my Macs and it is a must have tool to have.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> That's been the graduate's lament for as long as I can remember -- not finding work in the languages that they learned in favor of old dinosaurs. When I was in college, everyone wanted to change the world using Turbo Pascal but we can see where that went.
> 
> While many enterprises are looking for programmers in various "new wave" languages (Javascript, Go, Rust, Python, Swift), there are quite a few that have chosen not to follow Microsoft's parade of programming language and database engine recommendations and have kept their old code (FORTRAN, PHP, COBOL and even BASIC) going. Those who vested themselves in the various C derivatives have never found the job market not all that "hip" (outside of certain verticals like gaming).
> 
> ...


Seriously, what planet do you live on? Nobody uses FORTRAN, COBOL and BASIC. Facebook does use PHP though. What does Microsoft have to do with Go, Rust, Python, Javascript and Swift? And again, any modern tech company isn't using ANYTHING Microsoft. C and C++ were thankfully gotten rid of in the Windows world. My new company does have some older code in C++, but new code is Java and newer code is Kotlin. All database stuff is some form of NoSQL.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> I use a Mac at work and have an iMac at home + a PC I built has Windows 10 installed on one NVMe and MAC OS Catalina installed on the other NVMe (Hackintosh). I'll probably never get another Apple computer as they are slowly making upgrades impossible. A 21.5" iMac we recently bought at work to use as a FileMaker Pro server needed a memory upgrade from 8 GB to 32 GB. It is possible but to do it but you have to remove the glass panel which is on with double stick tape so you have to have special tool to cut through it. Once you get that removed you have to remove the display, the hard drive, the speakers, the logic board, and the video card just to get to the memory modules. Not all iMacs are like that but each new version gets closer and closer to it. Along with permanent RAM modules that cannot be upgraded. I have not seen that on the iMacs but I know it is that way in some laptops.


Lol... PC & Windows definitely the way to go for the average home user.

Hopefully Intel will get their act together with Alder Lake.



b4pjoe said:


> As far a good text editor like Notepad ++ I'll remind you that it is not included with Windows. It is a 3rd party application. On the Mac you can use BB Edit with the same type features you have in Notepadd ++. The free version of BB Edit used to be Text Wrangler but they discontinued that but they have a free version of BB Edit with the same feature set as Text Wrangler that I use on my Macs and it is a must have tool to have.


Yup, but even vanilla Notepad is better then what comes on the Mac which is Notes. Outlook on the Mac has like 10% of the feature set that the one on Windows does.

I just can't stand the multiple instance thing. Sooo god awful.

I open Outlook, compose an email and then have to switch to a different thing to get some info and the email Window got pushed to the background. I need to right click on the doc and switch from the context menu and I need like 5 instances of IntelliJ open and switching between them is a pain.

One of the first things I always do on a Window install is set the task bar to NOT group apps.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

The default text editor on the Mac is TextEdit. Notes is for...well notes. BB Edit is still far better than TextEdit.

Outlook sucks everywhere.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> The default text editor on the Mac is TextEdit. Notes is for...well notes. BB Edit is still far better than TextEdit.
> 
> Outlook sucks everywhere.


Outlook 365 does. It can't handle lots of emails. Outlook classic is fine, but overkill for home use since they killed Outlook Express.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Nobody uses FORTRAN, COBOL and BASIC.


This is a false statement.


> What does Microsoft have to do with Go, Rust, Python, Javascript and Swift?


Precious little but you can bet they're watching them like a hawk.


> And again, any modern tech company isn't using ANYTHING Microsoft.


This is great if you can land a job in a modern tech company but a lot of the current openings are from decidedly non-tech companies and government agencies where making waves is often discouraged in the name of consistency.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> This is a false statement.Precious little but you can bet they're watching them like a hawk.This is great if you can land a job in a modern tech company but a lot of the current openings are from decidedly non-tech companies and government agencies where making waves is often discouraged in the name of consistency.


You should really try moving to Earth. Don't know where you live, but pretty much every modern earth based tech company is hiring in DROVES. If you want to get in, all you have to do is brush up on your LeetCode and some behavior rounds, so you might want to taper back on the MS conspiracy theories during your interview.

Up until Feb, I worked at a dinosaur non-tech company... I won't be doing that again. They didn't give me any RSUs and they didn't pay well and the benefits sucked. My new company is the first good company I've worked for in my career... I think I'll stick with the "good companies" from now on. And shocker, but we don't use any tech you mentioned other then some legacy C++ code. We use Java + AWS.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> This will open doors for alternatives that don't feel the need to force you to buy a learn a "new" OS every few years. As long as your software still runs and you can still get a capable browser, who needs new?


And yet that is exactly what you are asking people to do - cut away from Microsoft Windows and move to a new OS where their programs won't run and the alternative programs (knockoffs) are not quite the same.

You still don't seem to understand that Linux isn't a product ... it is a class of product with many variants. More flavors than a Baskin-Robbins. There are more Linuxes on the market now than there have been versions of Windows. Which dozen are you suggesting people leave Windows for? Or is it just an "anything but Microsoft" crusade?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> And yet that is exactly what you are asking people to do - cut away from Microsoft Windows and move to a new OS where their programs won't run and the alternative programs (knockoffs) are not quite the same.
> 
> You still don't seem to understand that Linux isn't a product ... it is a class of product with many variants. More flavors than a Baskin-Robbins. There are more Linuxes on the market now than there have been versions of Windows. Which dozen are you suggesting people leave Windows for? Or is it just an "anything but Microsoft" crusade?


Well, the 5 people that use Linux probably use Ubuntu, but that falls into his "they spy on us" category.

harsh also doesn't seem to realize that *Microsoft is largely irrelevant today*. Do they own desktop and office? yup. Is anyone still afraid of "poking the big bad bear"? 20 years ago maybe... today? Not really.

Most apps, where possible have moved to browser based. Very few thick client apps remain. Enterprise doesn't use anything Microsoft pretty much. And I said earlier, Microsoft doesn't own any relevant online property or any thick client app outside of Office.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Just because I use Windows 10 doesn't mean I use the built-in apps. New install? ShareX for screen capturing and recording, Notepad++ for text editing, 7-Zip for file compression, Fiddler and Wireshark, and oh year, Firefox and Chrome.

If there is anyone to blame for a "closed" environment, it's Apple. Want to upgrade your iOS app? Must get the blessing of the Apple high priests. Want to upgrade the memory or the storage device? Good luck.

Oh yeah, my file storage/media server? It's running on FreeBSD.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> And yet that is exactly what you are asking people to do - cut away from Microsoft Windows and move to a new OS where their programs won't run and the alternative programs (knockoffs) are not quite the same.


So everyone should be absolutely happy with the way things are working and where they appear to be going in Windows?

Sheep (or is it lemmings?)!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> So everyone should be absolutely happy with the way things are working and where they appear to be going in Windows?


It is going better for Windows than it is for any flavor of Linux. If acceptance of Linux doubles in the next five years it still won't be more than a footnote in the home/desktop productivity section of the market place.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> It is going better for Windows than it is for any flavor of Linux. If acceptance of Linux doubles in the next five years it still won't be more than a footnote in the home/desktop productivity section of the market place.


footnote? At < 1%, it won't even be a pinky toe note.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> footnote? At < 1%, it won't even be a pinky toe note.


Again, where do you get this <1% statistic?

Is popularity a guarantee of goodness or suitability for a particular application? Facebook is awfully popular.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> Again, where do you get this <1% statistic?
> 
> Is popularity a guarantee of goodness or suitability for a particular application? Facebook is awfully popular.


I've repeatedly told you where I get my stats from both in this thread as well as others. You just seem to ignore it, much like reality it seems, but now for the 17th million time: Statistica.

Popularity is a measure of how good something is in its space. We've already established you live in a world all your own when it comes to judging whether things are good or not.

While you are entitled to your opinion, there is a reason we don't get statistics from 1 or 2 people, we get them from hundreds of millions of people and you end up with a gaussian distribution, thus eliminating outliers such as yourself.

Like-wise, UNPOPULARITY is a measure of how terrible something is.

Why don't people use Linux? Because 99% of the population, well, ~80ish% of it (again, according to Statistica), decided Windows is the best platform for mainstream use.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Popularity or market penetration? Corvettes are popular but not everyone who likes one has one.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Desktop Operating System Market Share Worldwide | StatCounter Global Stats
Operating system market share


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> I've repeatedly told you where I get my stats from both in this thread as well as others.


I'm asking you to cite your source regardless of what it is.

A post of yours in the "Windows 11 ?" thread shows a link to Globalstats that gives Linux a 2.38 _worldwide_ market share so your previous citation doesn't support your <1% (whether US or worldwide) claim.

I acknowledge that the percentage is fairly small, but there was a time that the Windows market share was a small fraction of those of the Commodore 64, Apple ][ and MS/PC-DOS.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> I acknowledge that the percentage is fairly small, but there was a time that the Windows market share was a small fraction of those of the Commodore 64, Apple ][ and MS/PC-DOS.


There was probably a couple of months in 1993 when Windows had a "small fraction" market share. Every product starts at zero customers. Some grow, others don't. Windows did.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Some grow, others don't. Windows did.


This establishes that there is a precedent for something to replace the incumbent.

We should all strive to be part of the solution.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Keep holding out hope. Linux was around in the 1990s as well. Not so much growth in their market penetration. And while Windows is down from their peak, Linux did not get a net gain.

Do you even remember what Windows replaced? Or is this another example of "speaking without direct knowledge"?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Do you even remember what Windows replaced?


Apparently much better than you.

From Microsoft's perspective, Windows replaced (extended by adding a GUI, let's be honest) MS-DOS. For those who were running platforms (C64/128 and Apple ][) there may have been steps in between (AmigaOS, TOS on the Atari ST and early B/W Macintosh efforts) delaying their joining of the ovine herd demanding compatibility with 1-2-3, Word Perfect and Microsoft Flight Simulator until the late 80s.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I remember ... I owned computers pre-windows. I was programming on Unix back in the day - before Linux.
(Very helpful in the modern era where the more powerful UI on a system is a command prompt.)
Is your memory from your usage or Wikipedia / Google / Bing?

Are you assuming that because I don't believe Linux will take over the desktop/office market that I don't use it?
Great for the tasks listed earlier in this thread but I'm not going to give it to my boss or the CEO on a desktop.
(I have a few years left until I want to retire instead of be retired for making such an idiotic suggestion.)


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

James Long said:


> There was probably a couple of months in 1993 when Windows had a "small fraction" market share. Every product starts at zero customers. Some grow, others don't. Windows did.


Uhhh..... Windows started out in November 20, 1985 as a graphical shell to MS-DOS. However, it wasn't until Windows 3.0, introduced on May 22, 1990, that Windows achieved wide adoption, selling 2 million units within the first six months. Initially, they thought Fax would be the big thing, but instead, it was the Internet and Internet Explorer. Windows 3.1, introduced in April, 1992, made improvements to Windows 3.0.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> I remember ... I owned computers pre-windows. I was programming on Unix back in the day - before Linux.
> (Very helpful in the modern era where the more powerful UI on a system is a command prompt.)
> Is your memory from your usage or Wikipedia / Google / Bing?
> 
> ...


Windows 3.x "extended" DOS. By Windows 2000, all traces of DOS were gone.

Btw Windows still has a command line interface where you can do anything Linux can do through a variety of scripting and non scripting languages: batch, python, powershell and of course console apps.

harsh is still living in his fantasy world and grasping at straws. DOS was replaced by the people who built DOS in the first place and there was a much smaller user base of computers. That's slightly different then today where most people would see Linux as overly complicated as they don't want to muck with command lines. Not to mention, you aren't going to unseat something with 80% market share when that market is about a trillion times bigger then it was when DOS was replaced.

harsh must have made billions off his Linux career since he's volunteering, it seems, to retrain & pay for 7B people to use it. Even with his billions, I don't think he'll be able to afford it.

Or we could ask him why MacOS hasn't unseated Windows? That's a UI running over Linux. Just what he always dreamed of.

As James pointed out, Linux has never made even a small dent in market share, so why would it randomly start?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark Holtz said:


> Uhhh..... Windows started out in November 20, 1985 as a graphical shell to MS-DOS. However, it wasn't until Windows 3.0, introduced on May 22, 1990, that Windows achieved wide adoption, selling 2 million units within the first six months. Initially, they thought Fax would be the big thing, but instead, it was the Internet and Internet Explorer. Windows 3.1, introduced in April, 1992, made improvements to Windows 3.0.


Windows 3.x was a hit cuz of Internet Explorer? Doubtful since Windows 3.x didn't have built in networking, you had to install Winsock. Not to mention Windows 3.0 came out in 1990 and IE first came out in 1995. Even Netscape didn't come out until 1994.


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## Eva (Nov 8, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> Windows 3.x was a hit cuz of Internet Explorer? Doubtful since Windows 3.x didn't have built in networking, you had to install Winsock. Not to mention Windows 3.0 came out in 1990 and IE first came out in 1995. Even Netscape didn't come out until 1994.


I remember having to install the Winsock thing to get on the web. And in those days BBSs were still around.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I was never in IT but knew several folks who were. When Windows first came out we were all using a AS400 (I think) through dumb terminals and PC's for word processing. 
The IT guys loaded Windows 3.0 or 3.1 and some program called Kermit on a PC. They were so excited when they got it working and we could do our green screen stuff on a PC.

The terminals went away and we all got new 286 computers.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

SledgeHammer said:


> Windows 3.x was a hit cuz of Internet Explorer? Doubtful since Windows 3.x didn't have built in networking, you had to install Winsock. Not to mention Windows 3.0 came out in 1990 and IE first came out in 1995. Even Netscape didn't come out until 1994.


See what happens when you rely on memory from events over 25 years ago? Internet Explorer 1 was released on August 16, 1995, while Windows 95 was released on August 24, 1995, and the disks included a dial-up Winsock program that was free. Prior to that, you have to download (and supposedly pay for, although few actually did) the Trumpet Winsock program. It also caused Windows to move away from the IPX/SPX protocol to the TCP/IP protocol. Mind you, the early versions of the browsers were very crude compared to the browser functionality we have now.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark Holtz said:


> Mind you, the early versions of the browsers were very crude compared to the browser functionality we have now.


Indeed they were. Text mode, so they were harsh's wet dream .


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

I still have the 5.25" floppy disks with Windows 1 on it. Of course I have no drive to see if they still work and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't after having spent many years in storage in hot and cold weather. The PC that was running Windows 1 also had Aldus Pagemaker 2.0 on it. The dawn of a graphical desktop publishing began on a PC at that time. It was already on Macs before that though.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mark Holtz said:


> Uhhh..... Windows started out in November 20, 1985 as a graphical shell to MS-DOS. However, it wasn't until Windows 3.0, introduced on May 22, 1990, that Windows achieved wide adoption, selling 2 million units within the first six months. Initially, they thought Fax would be the big thing, but instead, it was the Internet and Internet Explorer. Windows 3.1, introduced in April, 1992, made improvements to Windows 3.0.


I didn't get involved with Windows until 3.1. The timeline before that doesn't exist. 
I was involved in Unix before there was Linux and with other operating systems pre-Windows.
Microsoft changed the world with MSDOS and they changed it again with Windows.

Linux has been around 30 years and has about the same desktop market penetration as 25 years ago. There is no reason to expect Linux to replace Windows as the OS people or businesses purchase with their next machine. Perhaps for those who would buy Linux as a hobby (similar to people who buy Raspberry PIs). Or those with a deep hatred of Microsoft. I do not expect the introduction of Windows 11 to create they type of backlash harsh is promoting.

All Windows 10 machines will die some day ... many before 2025. A long as the next machine people buy works with whatever Windows is provided the great majority of people will accept it and move on with life. No hatred required.

(Caveat: MacOS on a Linux core or Windows OS on a Linux core would sell. But only because end users are buying MacOS or Windows OS for their desktop/laptop and don't know or care about the core. The OS would continue to have the support of the big companies people are trusting.)


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Is your memory from your usage or Wikipedia / Google / Bing?


My memory is from memory. I omitted also-rans like the Atari 8-bits, the TI-99/4A and the Coleco Adam because they never had mainstream options for tax software (one of the very few off-the-shelf software products that I use). I left out Radio Shack computers (Model n and Coco) on general principle.

I've worked with an Altos MP/M (multi-user CP/M) Z80 box as well as administering a Wyse 386-based Xenix box. I even have ongoing experience with AlphaMicro super microcomputers (now running under emulation on AMD64 Pee Cees). My choice in the 8-bit world was the C64 and my 68K option was the Commodore Amiga.

I've seen first-hand what can be done on very modest hardware to get the job done. Windows has become the poster child for utterly wasted resources.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

I'm starting to think the thread title should be changed to "The Rock Em Sock Em Windows 11 Hardware Requirements Debate".


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I came up with something better. Hopefully it can keep the Microsoft hatred out of the Windows 11 thread.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

ROTFLMAO...That is better!


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> I came up with something better. Hopefully it can keep the Microsoft hatred out of the Windows 11 thread.


Lol, but I don't think harsh JUST hates Windows. If you check post #83, harsh pretty much hates EVERYTHING mainstream.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> I'm starting to think the thread title should be changed to "The Rock Em Sock Em Windows 11 Hardware Requirements Debate".


Not sure what harsh's issue is... Windows 11 actually has very low hardware requirements.

* 2 cores @ 1ghz
* 4gb of ram
* 64GB of hard drive space
* DirectX 12

Now granted, you wouldn't have a very good experience using that hardware, but you wouldn't using Linux either.

Doesn't the HR54 use linux? While its certainly faster then old my old HR24 that took 30 seconds to respond to a remote click, it isn't a barn burner.

If his issue is with the TPM requirement, we've already beat that to death:

* most modern PC already have it and you just need to enable in BIOS
* for older PCs, there are several workarounds floating around already

harsh can hate on Windows all he wants, but he'll always been in the 1% minority... or 2% if you want to be nitpicky... in my book, 1-2% = 0%.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

SledgeHammer said:


> Doesn't the HR54 use linux?


It does use it exactly !


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

P Smith said:


> It does use it exactly !


Yup, so much for harshs theory that linux isn't a resource hog.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

So despite the title, the topic is hating Windows ... not discussing harsh personally.
Just trying to keep the drift out of the useful Windows 10 / Windows 11 threads.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'll put this in the "hate" thread ...
Windows says:








Third Party App says:









Why do I need a third party app to tell me why my machine will not run Windows 11? Is it too difficulty for Microsoft to bake that into their checker?

BTW: The incompatible drive listed on the WhyNotWin11 app was a camera card.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> I'll put this in the "hate" thread ...
> Windows says:
> View attachment 31537
> 
> ...


This app is better then the MS one, but they pulled that one due to negative feedback and that they can't make up their minds on the requirements.

The TPM requirement isn't that big of a deal for most people. Just hop in the bios and turn it on.

The secure boot is more problematic as it requires you doing certain things in a certain order. First time I tried to switch it on, it temporarily "bricked" my PC and I had to pull the GPU and reset the bios. Requiring the GPT partitions isn't something most people would know how to do.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Now granted, you wouldn't have a very good experience using that hardware...


That's a pretty herculean understatement. Microsoft's previous minimum specifications have almost universally been woefully inadequate for other than a factory fresh configuration. As you point out, the Windows 11 specs seem more driven by consumer outcry than engineers.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Requiring the GPT partitions isn't something most people would know how to do.


I assume I won't need to put GPT partitions on my camera card to make it readable by Windows 11. I would not want to do anything that would make it unreadable to the camera.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Yup, so much for harshs theory that linux isn't a resource hog.


Those who had Genies before the last few years of updates were glowing in their praise of the Genie's performance. Bloat has apparently exceeded the performance margins designed into the equipment. That the latest model (HS17) design debuted more than four years ago is probably something they didn't expect to have to be doing battle with.

As Rich has reiterated many dozens of times, an SSD does wonders to restore performance so it would appear that the demands placed on the hard drive are the most serious performance killers. Perhaps the programmers had to reduce disk cache RAM to make room for features implemented in whatever programming language they're using now.

Running Windows on a 4-9 year old machine may not end up being allowed but Linux stands an excellent chance of being quite satisfactory on any reasonable Windows computer of that era.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

Some interesting reading on the status of Microsoft's integration of Linux into Windows...

Yes, Windows will catch up to Linux, mostly.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> I assume I won't need to put GPT partitions on my camera card to make it readable by Windows 11.


My assumption is that GPT is only really needed on drives that might be encrypted. The baggage of flash cards and connected devices (GPSes, cameras and external USB/eSATA drives) isn't something they can leave behind.

I wouldn't be surprised if a revised app doesn't look at the physical interface of the drive mechanism and/or its total capacity and not raise that warning.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> My assumption is that GPT is only really needed on drives that might be encrypted. The baggage of flash cards and connected devices (GPSes, cameras and external USB/eSATA drives) isn't something they can leave behind.


GPT has nothing to do with encryption. MBR is the "old school" format and GPT is the new one. MBR has a lot of limitations that people today are running into under "reasonable use". MBR only works up to 2TB and can only have 4 primary partitions. GPT also has additional CRC redundancy & recovery capabilities. GPT is also only supported / required with UEFI bios.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> GPT has nothing to do with encryption.


I was wrong about Microsoft's motivations. All UEFI versions can securely boot from GPT but not all versions can fall back to booting in BIOS mode (required to boot from MBR). You have to wonder if any machine that otherwise met the Windows 11 requirements wouldn't also support legacy boot mode.

Why GPT is "required" for all partitions seems rather arbitrary as applied to existing non-boot disks. Perhaps they're just trying to distance themselves from themselves.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

I think everyone is ignoring the fact that the dynamics of computing and technology is in a case of constant evolution, and will continue to change. We have gone full circle from the big mainframes storing data to the desktops storing data back over to centralized cloud farms storing the data. This technology evolution has been brought on by faster processors, larger storage devices (both SSD and hard drives), and faster Internet connectivity. Some of this change was sped up because of Covid-19 and the need for many knowledge workers to work from home instead of the office, and some of this is brought on by business reducing IT costs by having fewer apps to install/maintain and utilizing the web browser. In addition, the data has to be accessible not only from desktop computers, but also mobile phones and tablets from "anywhere" in the world. The modern-day versions of Firefox and Chrome have the necessary APIs so that you can easily attend an online meeting utilizing the web browser instead of installing a desktop application (although some functionality is lost with the web app). I'm currently involved in a work project, and the project data is being stored on a Microsoft sharepoint site which can be accessed through a web browser. For me, I still find it easier to utilize the desktop version of Excel rather than the web version for some functionality, but even then, the data updates from Excel are immediately updated on the project. In addition, the data is becoming more and more interconnected to the point where I don't need to download the entire map of the United States to my GPS unit, but just a small subset for the DFW area, but also up-to-date business information, look at their websites, and even dial the business from the map application. And, since we are utilizing common and widely adopted formats and protocols, we don't know, nor should we even care, if the data is coming from a Windows server, Linux server, FreeBSD server, or S3 server. Also, even if I'm utilizing a desktop app, do I really need the complete, or can I get away with installing only the parts that I need when I need them?

Don't get me wrong.... desktop are still important. One big feature brought on by Covid and work-from-home is "virtual backgrounds" for their webcams. Nice feature, but very CPU intensive. It works on my i7-4790k, but I have to shut down some apps on my seven year old computer to avoid pegging out at 100% usage.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I am fortunate to work in an environment where "camera off" is acceptable for most meetings. "Turn on your camera" has only been mentioned once since April 2020. Meeting leaders and presenters often have their cameras on. Hardly anyone else does.

"As a service" computing entered my life a few years ago with a new IT director who wanted to empty out our server room and move everything to the cloud and "as a service" operators. He has now left the organization but we are taking tentative steps towards "as a service" offerings. Microsoft's offerings fit within that definition. Email, Active Directory, MDM, desktop applications all cloud based. Web based applications make it easier for anyone with a compatible browser (regardless of OS) to access and edit documents and spreadsheets through Microsoft programs. Microsoft still gets their money for the service.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

James Long said:


> I am fortunate to work in an environment where "camera off" is acceptable for most meetings. "Turn on your camera" has only been mentioned once since April 2020. Meeting leaders and presenters often have their cameras on. Hardly anyone else does.


I earn my living from supporting online meetings and conferencing. Although I also tend to tell my team that if we are on a one-on-one, and I don't have my camera on, you don't need your camera on, and I may actually ask you to turn it off. I'm more interested in what is being screen shared.

As for "as a service", that requires plenty of planning and security considerations. It does have some benefits as you can enter/update the data "right there" with your laptop/mobile device rather than wait until returning the office or submitting a paper form for someone else to data enter.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

So I lost a few hours of my life to Linux this weekend. I have a PC that is dedicated to running one program that is getting old and Windows is not updating so I decided that it was time to replace that computer. The one program that runs 24/7/365 on that computer has been updated and although it remains a Windows based program it is now "Linux aware" and supported running on Wine (on Ubuntu and MacOS). So I thought I'd give it a try.

The "20 minute install" of Ubuntu stretched to an hour ... partially due to questions asked in the install that I did not have the answer to. I was trying to create the smallest installation footprint possible (since all this machine needs to do is run one program through Wine). I downloaded the "server" install that would allow a desktop to be added. xubuntu or lubuntu? Random choice. There was a choice after that which I apparently got wrong (my desktop booted to a blank screen). Once I changed that setting I get a desktop but can't find shell access. So I ran SSH from another machine to finish the setup.

Updates - As part of the install process it was suggested that I seek and installed updates. Which I did ... twice. After watching the computer churn through over 100 updates found (taking more than a hour not included in the hour above) I ran the check for updates again and it found the same 100+ updates. Apparently the updates worked the second time I ran "update". Now three hours into the installation of a simple Linux machine. Meanwhile since I was using SSH to run the update the computer itself decided to go in to sleep mode (no one controlling the GUI so let's shut down the system). I poked around and fixed that problem.

The "one program" mentioned above controls a USB device ... the next step was to install the drivers for the USB device to make sure that it would work properly. Drivers available from the manufacturer and not built in to Linux but I expected that. After an hour of gets gits and makes ... the USB device did not register. Four hours down and time to start over from scratch?

My original intent was to replace the old PC with a new Win 10 PC ... I bought one last week and had it online in under 10 minutes and let Windows Update run to catch it up to current. I have not tried the USB device and "one program" yet - I was distracted by trying it in Linux. I have not fully decided whether or not to try to build the replacement in Linux again. As noted, I like Linux fox "do one thing and do it well" and really don't want a machine with all the bells and whistles just to run "one program". But if Linux fails I will be forced back to Windows where I know the USB device and software will work.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mark Holtz said:


> As for "as a service", that requires plenty of planning and security considerations. It does have some benefits as you can enter/update the data "right there" with your laptop/mobile device rather than wait until returning the office or submitting a paper form for someone else to data enter.


Our biggest problem is deciding where to share ... different teams and vendors having different preferences. We have one vendor that used a project management website for shared files. It included project tracking tools, update alerts and reminders along with file sharing. For the next project a different team at the same vendor is using Teams. Or at least they claim to ... there are still files and information being emailed. (Email being the least confidential way of connecting. Fortunately nothing we are sharing is protected by law.)


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> I was wrong about Microsoft's motivations. All UEFI versions can securely boot from GPT but not all versions can fall back to booting in BIOS mode (required to boot from MBR). You have to wonder if any machine that otherwise met the Windows 11 requirements wouldn't also support legacy boot mode.
> 
> Why GPT is "required" for all partitions seems rather arbitrary as applied to existing non-boot disks. Perhaps they're just trying to distance themselves from themselves.


Oh boy. Another one of your crackpot conspiracy theories. I'd hate to see your tinfoil budget .

Microsoft didn't invent GPT. Intel did, as part of UEFI. Not to mention it's been around since the late 1990s and is supported on every OS including Mac and Linux.

Also, I've already explained to you why they are moving to GPT. Because MBR only handles 2TB and most people have larger then 2TBs (including you I bet... where else would you store all the redacted government docs you buy off the dark web that form the basis of your crackpot theories?). It's also there since it provides CRC redundancy which MBR doesn't.

Secure Boot is a totally different technology and also was not invented by Microsoft (Intel again). Btw, Windows 11 (as of the leaked build) doesn't require you to turn Secure Boot on, it just requires you to switch to UEFI/GPT.

I for one am glad they are "encouraging" people to move to UEFI. BIOS is as old as the PC and should have been retired a long time ago.

I wonder how miffed you were when they retired the serial & parallel port? Not to mention the floppy and the dot matrix printer.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> I am fortunate to work in an environment where "camera off" is acceptable for most meetings. "Turn on your camera" has only been mentioned once since April 2020. Meeting leaders and presenters often have their cameras on. Hardly anyone else does.


Yeah, kind of annoying to have to turn on my camera when I'm WFH. Having to brush your hair and such lol. Seems like most people on my team have fallen back to camera off.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Mark Holtz said:


> I earn my living from supporting online meetings and conferencing. Although I also tend to tell my team that if we are on a one-on-one, and I don't have my camera on, you don't need your camera on, and I may actually ask you to turn it off. I'm more interested in what is being screen shared.
> 
> As for "as a service", that requires plenty of planning and security considerations. It does have some benefits as you can enter/update the data "right there" with your laptop/mobile device rather than wait until returning the office or submitting a paper form for someone else to data enter.


At my new company, seems like 1 on 1 with the boss is generally camera on. Presenting is generally camera on. Team meetings most people seem to have them off lately. I'll just follow the majority.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> So I lost a few hours of my life to Linux this weekend. I have a PC that is dedicated to running one program that is getting old and Windows is not updating so I decided that it was time to replace that computer. The one program that runs 24/7/365 on that computer has been updated and although it remains a Windows based program it is now "Linux aware" and supported running on Wine (on Ubuntu and MacOS). So I thought I'd give it a try.
> 
> The "20 minute install" of Ubuntu stretched to an hour ... partially due to questions asked in the install that I did not have the answer to. I was trying to create the smallest installation footprint possible (since all this machine needs to do is run one program through Wine). I downloaded the "server" install that would allow a desktop to be added. xubuntu or lubuntu? Random choice. There was a choice after that which I apparently got wrong (my desktop booted to a blank screen). Once I changed that setting I get a desktop but can't find shell access. So I ran SSH from another machine to finish the setup.
> 
> ...


But harsh claims Linux takes 5 minutes to set up and is so simple a trained baboon can do it . I'm really confused at that claim since Windows and Mac never ask me questions like you encountered. I got a new Mac laptop at work, and all it asked me during the install is pretty much what country I'm from. Windows is pretty much the same.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> But harsh claims Linux takes 5 minutes to set up and is so simple a trained baboon can do it . I'm really confused at that claim since Windows and Mac never ask me questions like you encountered. I got a new Mac laptop at work, and all it asked me during the install is pretty much what country I'm from. Windows is pretty much the same.


Do you mean a new MAC installation with the OS loaded from scratch? Or a preinstalled OS that just needed the usual initial startup info entered. I turned on a new Dell laptop with preinstalled Red Hat Linux last year for a client, and answered pretty much the same basic questions as a new Windows laptop as to language, country, time zone, login credentials, etc. It probably took less than 5 minutes. Installing a desktop GNU/Linux OS from scratch from DVD's or CD's certainly takes longer though, as does Windows and I presume MAC, if Apple even allows you to do that.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> He has now left the organization but we are taking tentative steps towards "as a service" offerings. Microsoft's offerings fit within that definition.


If only the "as a service" offerings were comparable with the locally hosted versions. Sometimes I get the feeling that Microsoft took a flail to the Outluck UI just so it would make the web version look better.


> Web based applications make it easier for anyone with a compatible browser (regardless of OS) to access and edit documents and spreadsheets through Microsoft programs.


If only the web browsers themselves would stop trying to twist the direction of the web. I'm recently seeing a lot of trouble from alterations made to the way that web browsers used to work that is making life more and more like the frustration that is running Safari. I reason that Safari is perhaps why iOS devices are so dependent on apps.

The browser changes may make things look a whole lot cleaner, but they often get in the way of doing things that used to be desired. As an example, some templates for the latest version of Xenforo turn off the browser's own status bar and menus. While it makes everything look spiffy, you can't get into the browser menu to do simple things like changing the text size or bookmarking a page. The removal of tabs from mobile browsers seems to be a terrible idea.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> I was trying to create the smallest installation footprint possible (since all this machine needs to do is run one program through Wine).


The best way to do this is to choose a lightweight distribution to begin with. Starting with the server version of the fattest distribution and trying to pare it down only to add the GUI back in is unnecessary roughness.

Puppy Linux will run Wine.

If you think going this direction was bad, try installing a Linux app in Linux for Windows.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> If only the "as a service" offerings were comparable with the locally hosted versions.


This is probably your first post ever where I agree with something you said. Office 365 is garbage and I'll stick to Office 2019 until Office 2021 comes out.

At my former abusers, they forced Office 365 on us... and I was on a ST of mailing lists there, so I probably got thousands of emails a day. No sweat for Office 2019. Office 365 would constantly crash.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> If you think going this direction was bad, try installing a Linux app in Linux for Windows.


Why would you try to run a Linux app on Windows?

1) most useful Linux apps have native Windows versions

2) I am a Sr. Software Engineer using Java. While I would personally prefer to develop on the PC because the Mac sucks, I'd never run a production Java app on a Windows VM or server, etc. Java developers, in general, are Linux nuts, so while the code generally runs on Windows+Java, it's not thoroughly tested. That being said, the only thing I've come across (so far) that I was thinking about playing with that doesn't fully run on Windows+Java was NGINX. Kafka also has a few bugs running on Windows.

But again, we weren't talking about what you'd run production code on at work, we're talking about home and/or non developer office use. You don't seem to be able to differentiate those two worlds for some odd reason.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> 1) most useful Linux apps have native Windows versions


Many that I use do not or if they do, they use some nasty runtime library like Cygwin or MinGW.


> 2) I am a Sr. Software Engineer using Java.


You would probably say the same thing if you were programming in any other substantially portable interpreted language (i.e. Python, Javascript). When it comes down to coding using the Microsoft-branded development tools (i.e. C++, MS-SQL, .net, Azure, PowerShell), portability to non-Windows platforms is not at all trivial unless you employ a third party tool like Qt and even then it can be a challenge.


> But again, we weren't talking about what you'd run production code on at work, we're talking about home and/or non developer office use.


I daresay that you're the first to bring up programming as a typical computer use.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> You would probably say the same thing if you were programming in any other substantially portable interpreted language (i.e. Python, Javascript). When it comes down to coding using the Microsoft-branded development tools (i.e. C++, MS-SQL, .net, Azure, PowerShell), portability to non-Windows platforms is not at all trivial unless you employ a third party tool like Qt and even then it can be a challenge.


Wow, you really have no clue what you're talking about. Yeah, shocker, I know lol.

1) C/C++ isn't a Microsoft thing. It's a general purpose, portable language. Yup, also LONG available on Linux/Unix. It wasn't invented by Microsoft and its not maintained by Microsoft. Microsoft has nothing to do with C++ other then provide tools to develop in it. It's also going the way of the dodo bird. Only legacy code is still built in C++.

2) Nobody outside of low end Microsoft shops use MS-SQL & .Net / .Net Core these days. Of the Microsoft shops out there, there is a mix of Azure and AWS. The majority of enterprise grade development is in Java / Linux / AWS / Kubernetes.

3) Does anybody use Powershell other then Windows people? I've never seen that... doubtful that Linux people use it.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> 1) C/C++ isn't a Microsoft thing. It's a general purpose, portable language. Yup, also LONG available on Linux/Unix. It wasn't invented by Microsoft and its not maintained by Microsoft. Microsoft has nothing to do with C++ other then provide tools to develop in it. It's also going the way of the dodo bird. Only legacy code is still built in C++.


Microsoft's C++ compiler is its own thing and the Visual Studio tools don't go out of their way to guide you to API packages that are portable in favor of their Windows native runtimes.


> 2) Nobody outside of low end Microsoft shops use MS-SQL & .Net / .Net Core these days.


You've claimed that more than once but haven't answered any of the challenges. I've been looking for work and most of the government jobs specifically mention Microsoft tools if not certifications.


> 3) Does anybody use Powershell other then Windows people? I've never seen that... doubtful that Linux people use it.


No, it isn't used outside Windows and that was my point. I've got a couple of really handy tools that are written entirely in PowerShell and they aren't at all portable to other platforms even though they use any Windows resources.

Just because something has escaped your personal experience doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I've been doing this for a very long time.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> Microsoft's C++ compiler is its own thing and the Visual Studio tools don't go out of their way to guide you to API packages that are portable in favor of their Windows native runtimes.


What?? lol... C++ is compiled to the CPU architecture you intend to run it on. There is no such thing as portable C++ *binaries*. C++ code itself can be written to be portable (somewhat), but you'd still need to rebuild it for each architecture. If you are writing C++ code for Windows, why would you need portable libraries? And if you aren't writing for Windows, why would you use Visual Studio? Regardless, switching libraries to something more "portable" (i.e. there are binaries compiled for your target of choice) is trivial.



harsh said:


> You've claimed that more than once but haven't answered any of the challenges. I've been looking for work and most of the government jobs specifically mention Microsoft tools if not certifications.


And that explains why you're so out of touch with reality. Government jobs aren't cutting edge. Government work is for dinosaurs who don't want to learn anything new and don't mind the tiny government paychecks. I actually had a HR screen at Lockheed Martin (not strictly government, but a government contractor) for a Java position, and he scoffed at my "salary demands" even though I was asking for (private) industry standard. He offered me exactly HALF of what I ended up getting at my new private sector company (which is what I was asking Lockheed for). Private sector companies give you bonuses and RSUs and better benefits.

And again, if you look at modern tech companies, you'll find that none of them use Microsoft stuff. You'll also find not a single modern tech company cares about certifications, Microsoft or otherwise. All they care about is that you can pass a few rounds of Leetcode.



harsh said:


> I've been doing this for a very long time.


Me too. And like you, I got lazy at my last company and let my skills get stagnant (and my paycheck as a result -- sleazy/unethical company). Then a Junior friend of mine told me how much more he was making at a tech company as a junior, so I QUICKLY regrouped, spent a year updating my skills and practicing Leetcode and was out of that s***hole on the first thing smokin'.

I'd never go to a government job because the tech is ancient and the money sucks and you don't get RSUs.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> C++ is compiled to the CPU architecture you intend to run it on.


Duh.

My point is that Microsoft's C++ compiler isn't particularly compatible with GCC. The #ifdefs may be as many lines as the code.


> And that explains why you're so out of touch with reality. Government jobs aren't cutting edge.


Technology level has absolutely nothing to do with where job openings exist. This is where you continue to leap off the tracks of reality.


> And again, if you look at modern tech companies, you'll find that none of them use Microsoft stuff. You'll also find not a single modern tech company cares about certifications, Microsoft or otherwise. All they care about is that you can pass a few rounds of Leetcode.


Even if there were a surplus of opportunities in modern tech, you're statements would still be silly because all coding needs to get done whether the application is techy or arcane. Bookkeeping, inventory control and general data grinding will always be necessities even though they certainly aren't sexy.


> I'd never go to a government job because the tech is ancient and the money sucks and you don't get RSUs.


Money isn't everything. Benefits (both while working and after retirement) can mean a great deal. Being able to leave work at work is also a huge benefit.

Accepting stock as compensation and profit sharing are a major downer if the company doesn't do well.[/quote]


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> My point is that Microsoft's C++ compiler isn't particularly compatible with GCC. The #ifdefs may be as many lines as the code.


Boy, you just continue to blather about stuff you clearly have no clue about. Microsoft's C++ compiler not compatible with GCC? What?? You mean compile the same code base? Or are you talking about Visual Studio? Use GCC compiled libraries? You're once again wrong on all counts.

1) C++ code, especially of the "portable" variety, is always full of ifdefs
2) If the code sticks to the C++ standard, which once again has nothing to do with Microsoft (its an ISO standard), and ifdefs out all the platform specific stuff, then any C++ compiler can compile it. That's why its called a standard.
3) Why would Microsoft C++ understand GCC specific stuff or vice versa?
4) When it comes to C++, Visual Studio supports multiple compilers. MSVC is the Microsoft compiler. You can also point to Clang if you feel like building Android or IOS apps, and you can of course, also point it to GCC as well. Clang and GCC of course, have nothing to do with Microsoft. It's just something you can point your Visual Studio to.



harsh said:


> Technology level has absolutely nothing to do with where job openings exist. This is where you continue to leap off the tracks of reality. Even if there were a surplus of opportunities in modern tech, you're statements would still be silly because all coding needs to get done whether the application is techy or arcane.


I can see why you are unemployed. No jobs in modern tech? Are you high?? Or just pretending to be this clueless to troll people??

*LinkedIn, Software Engineer, United States, 172,885 hits. If I specify "Remote", then its still 36,480 hits.*

Let me guess, you refuse to use LinkedIn to find a job because its a Microsoft owned property? What a shame. I pretty much got ALL my interviews from LinkedIn. Too bad all these companies you claim don't exist expect you to have a decent LinkedIn profile nowadays.

You probably still use head hunters and give them a cut of your salary for a year.



harsh said:


> Bookkeeping, inventory control and general data grinding will always be necessities even though they certainly aren't sexy.


Once again, showing your cluelessness about how tech jobs work. When you're new, you get the crap projects, true. You do a few of those and do a good job on them, what do you know? They move you on to bigger and better projects and give the crap projects to the new guy after you, or to junior developers.

If you're stuck on the same crap project forever, it's YOUR fault. You either didn't prove yourself, or you were too lazy to ask your boss for a new challenge. Or, in your case, you work in a crappy government job where you get pigeon holed for life as the "Project X" guy. Which again, is why you don't work for those kinds of companies.



harsh said:


> Money isn't everything. Benefits (both while working and after retirement) can mean a great deal. Being able to leave work at work is also a huge benefit.


Let's see... at my last job (at a crap company), I came in at 8:30am, took a 30min lunch and left at 4:45pm. Once a month, I had to log on at 9pm for literally 5 minutes to baby sit my deployment and boom! done. I was never called at night and/or weekends. Duh, cuz my system worked and was stable.

At my new company, which is perm wfh, I "come in" at 8am, take a 1hr lunch and "go home" at 5pm. I've also never been called outside of work hours. Knock on wood.

As for benefits, aside from a pension which private companies don't give, I'm willing to bet you that the benefits at my new company blow the water out of anything you've ever gotten from Uncle Sam.



harsh said:


> Accepting stock as compensation and profit sharing are a major downer if the company doesn't do well.


Another clueless comment. Who said I accepted stock as compensation? Only an idiot would do that. Or a fresh college grad with little financial responsibilities willing to yolo on a start up.

My total compensation is made up of a base salary, an annual bonus, a VERY generous 401k match, out of this world benefits including PTO, company paid health care and lots of other stuff you can only dream of in a govt job, an expense account and a sign on bonus.

My base + bonus are both "industry standard".

IN ADDITION to all that, I was also given a pretty decent amount of RSUs as icing on the cake.

As for the stock not doing well, might I suggest using common sense which seems to be an issue with you? When you're thinking about applying at a company, read the reviews on Glassdoor (which is another tool you probably don't use), check the stock performance and the financials. It's all public info.

You'll also notice (well most people would, with you, who knows?) that Nasdaq has vastly out performed the Dow. Guess where the companies you work at are? On the Dow.

And since you're old judging by your posts, no I wouldn't suggest a start up. I wouldn't suggest that for myself either since I don't want to take that much risk.

As for retirement benefits, well, I have the generous 401k match, plus I'm getting paid twice what I would at a government job, so if I worked 10 yrs, that would be the same $$$ as you working 20 yrs. Well, actually, I'd have made a lot more then what you did working for 20 yrs because of my RSUs.

If you aren't getting a 100% pension for life, then how would you possibly come out ahead?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm reading your discussion with some interest , very distant as I did pass the gold time to follow...
but the thread topic ?


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

I'm also in private sector IT, and I'm just happy that I have a good paying job with good benefits, especially since I'm perpetually single and never had children.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

we are getting new turn out of the topic - living child free !


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> I'm reading your discussion with some interest , very distant as I did pass the gold time to follow...
> but the thread topic ?


It would be good to get back to a topic that isn't a resume measuring/insult contest.



harsh said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> > I was trying to create the smallest installation footprint possible (since all this machine needs to do is run one program through Wine).
> ...


"Server" is not the fattest distribution ... it is a pared down version. I started with the base that the "one program" author said would work. I tried another distro and ran into issues there. I have spent time trying to make it work (partially for the challenge) but it is probably time to run Windows software on a the Windows machine I bought for the purpose, before being distracted by Linux. Your suggestion to try yet another distro just highlights how fragmented Linux is.



harsh said:


> If you think going this direction was bad, try installing a Linux app in Linux for Windows.


Running Linux on Windows isn't the goal of my project. Running "one program" on a stable machine is the goal. So far, Linux has proven unworthy of this task.
(If you are planning on throwing more insults don't. I gave Linux a chance.)

Linux as an out of the box replacement for Windows. At the risk of being offered yet another flavor of distro is there a Linux where one ends up with a working desktop with wine at the end of the initial startup? The instructions I am finding certainly are not something I'd give to a non-tech (like SledgeHammer's father). To replace Windows one must be able to install and run Windows programs just as easily as if one was on a Windows machine. Or easier, since Linux is "better". 

Unless the goal is to replace Windows and every piece of Windows software that I use. That would be a major change and impossible for my current project since "one program" runs only on Windows.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> The instructions I am finding certainly are not something I'd give to a non-tech (like SledgeHammer's father). To replace Windows one must be able to install and run Windows programs just as easily as if one was on a Windows machine. Or easier, since Linux is "better".


Lol... definitely not! What's the issue with running it on Windows? I think you'll find that WINE is a Windows API *emulator*, and as such, is unlikely to have all the exact nuances of the actual Windows code. They even have a list of apps that don't run on WINE due to those nuances. Better yet, if the app is a hassle even on Windows, why not find a different one? What does the app do that there is no alternative?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

"_*W*ine *I*s *N*ot an *E*mulator._"

The author of the Windows software suggested that the program runs under WINE on Linux, so I figured I'd give it a shot. Weekly reboots of Windows for updates can cause havoc for a machine that I want running 24/7/365 mostly unattended. Sadly if the "one program" works today with the current version and patch level of Windows there really is no need to do Windows Updates except to patch vulnerabilities. The system is not air gaped but with no one browsing websites or clicking links in email it shouldn't be high risk for vulnerabilities. I could probably block Windows Updates but I figured I'd give Linux a chance since the new machine is on the workbench and not in production.

The program is not hard to run on Windows. At this point the installer won't launch on Linux. Running the installer is an important "first step" to having working software.[/i][/i][/i]


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> "_*W*ine *I*s *N*ot an *E*mulator._"


*Emulator*

*Description*
*Description*
In computing, an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system to behave like another computer system. An emulator typically enables the host system to run software or use peripheral devices designed for the guest system.

Sounds like an emulator to me, regardless of what Linux people claim. For whatever reason, they want to convince you that an "emulator" is only when you emulate hardware. Not true at all. Emulating ANYTHING is emulating.



James Long said:


> The author of the Windows software suggested that the program runs under WINE on Linux, so I figured I'd give it a shot. Weekly reboots of Windows for updates can cause havoc for a machine that I want running 24/7/365 mostly unattended. Sadly if the "one program" works today with the current version and patch level of Windows there really is no need to do Windows Updates except to patch vulnerabilities. The system is not air gaped but with no one browsing websites or clicking links in email it shouldn't be high risk for vulnerabilities. I could probably block Windows Updates but I figured I'd give Linux a chance since the new machine is on the workbench and not in production.
> 
> The program is not hard to run on Windows. At this point the installer won't launch on Linux. Running the installer is an important "first step" to having working software.[/i][/i][/i]


If you can't handle any down time on that machine (even with scheduling the reboots at 3am on a Sunday or whatever), then yeah, just disable Windows Updates and save your hair .

Or you could try to run it on a Raspberry Pi, but then we'd have to go through that whole debate with harsh again about his claim that a Raspberry Pi is not a computer.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Sounds like an emulator to me, regardless of what Linux people claim. For whatever reason, they want to convince you that an "emulator" is only when you emulate hardware. Not true at all. Emulating ANYTHING is emulating.


Perhaps it would work for me if it was an emulator? I'd expect an emulator to be able to replicate the entire environment that was needed to run the host software correctly. Wine doesn't do that. It translates Windows system calls to POSIX system calls. No emulation of the processor or any other part of the environment.



SledgeHammer said:


> Or you could try to run it on a Raspberry Pi, but then we'd have to go through that whole debate with harsh again about his claim that a Raspberry Pi is not a computer.


I thought harsh was on the "Raspberry Pi is a computer" side of that argument? How could a die hard supporter of Linux not like the Pi?
Either way, I'd need to update my Pi since the processor is not compatible with Windows.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> Perhaps it would work for me if it was an emulator? I'd expect an emulator to be able to replicate the entire environment that was needed to run the host software correctly. Wine doesn't do that. It translates Windows system calls to POSIX system calls. No emulation of the processor or any other part of the environment.


Wine is open source, so you can see exactly what it is. They just re-implemented the Win32 API in C. It does quite a bit more then just "translate the calls to POSIX calls" since large parts of the Win32 API aren't implemented on anything but Windows. For example, the registry. Wine "emulates" the registry by dumping everything into text files under the covers. Other stuff like the common controls, all re-implemented from scratch. I.e. https://source.winehq.org/source/dlls/comctl32/commctrl.c. As you can see in that code, there are a lot of little nuances.

The Wine code strikes me as somebody had/has access to the actual Windows source code. They seem to have too much knowledge of the internals to have gathered that from reverse engineering.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

SledgeHammer said:


> The Wine code strikes me as somebody had/has access to the actual Windows source code. They seem to have too much knowledge of the internals to have gathered that from reverse engineering.


yeah, it's suspicious level of the knowledge


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

WINE isn't the only way to run Windows apps on Linux based OS's. It's fairly simple to install most Windows versions as virtual machines with Oracle's VirtualBox. VirtualBox even supports full desktop integration with both the Windows and Linux OS task bars on the same desktop and Linux and Windows apps running side by side seamlessly, sharing the same storage. VB can also be used the other way around as well, running various Linux OS's as virtual machines on Windows in full desktop integration mode if desired.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Your suggestion to try yet another distro just highlights how fragmented Linux is.


The point being that you can install a distro that is complete and mostly matches your needs without having to assemble the necessary bits (and remove unwanted bits) from a more comprehensive distribution.

Think about what's involved in hacking Windows to run on a low-resource machine. It is much easier to build up than it is to pare down.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> How could a die hard supporter of Linux not like the Pi?


It is pretty easy, actually, The Pi is often too much for many simple applications (versus an Arduino or a Stamp) and often with the more complex operations like server functions, not enough.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> Think about what's involved in hacking Windows to run on a low-resource machine. It is much easier to build up than it is to pare down.


Not much. It runs on 4GB out of the box. You can trim it further if you like, but really not needed.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

NYDutch said:


> WINE isn't the only way to run Windows apps on Linux based OS's. It's fairly simple to install most Windows versions as virtual machines with Oracle's VirtualBox. VirtualBox even supports full desktop integration with both the Windows and Linux OS task bars on the same desktop and Linux and Windows apps running side by side seamlessly, sharing the same storage. VB can also be used the other way around as well, running various Linux OS's as virtual machines on Windows in full desktop integration mode if desired.


Why would he want to run a Windows VM on Linux when he could just run Windows? That defeats the whole point of James' issue!


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> Why would he want to run a Windows VM on Linux when he could just run Windows? That defeats the whole point of James' issue!


Running both OS's integrated on the desktop would give him the option of using the best tools from both worlds. He could also do it the the way around of course, running a Linux VM on Windows. That's what I first did about 20 years ago until I finally reached the point where my Linux OS was meeting all my needs without the Windows baggage...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

As noted, I was looking at running "one program" on Linux instead of Windows. It is a program written only for Windows (although it is "Linux aware"). I am not needing additional tools. The primary benefit would have been not needing Windows.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Why would he want to run a Windows VM on Linux when he could just run Windows? That defeats the whole point of James' issue!


The problem with Windows and applications that run 24/7/365 is that today's Windows seems pretty adept at picking just the wrong time to need a reboot. You can't fix that with any of the recent consumer versions of Windows (enterprise versions may offer sufficient control over updates). Linux can run quite happily for as long as you keep power to it. With some Linux distributions, you can upgrade to the next version without restarting.

I agree that Windows in a VM isn't a practical solution to James' problem for two reasons:

It requires Windows to be installled
It doesn't get around Windows need for random restarts
I'm guessing that the application in question is a monitoring system that watches for DISH transponder mapping changes. You don't want Windows to be restarting when a change comes down (in the interest of timeliness).


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> The problem with Windows and applications that run 24/7/365 is that today's Windows seems pretty adept at picking just the wrong time to need a reboot. You can't fix that with any of the recent consumer versions of Windows (enterprise versions may offer sufficient control over updates).




* On every version of Windows 10 (except Home) [that includes Professional and Student], you can disable Windows Update via the Group Policy.
* If you don't want to disable it completely, you can set the reboot times to something that works better then "random". It's never actually "random". Windows learns from your usage patterns and tries to accommodate you. If it's just a PC that runs an app and you never touch it other wise, it obviously wouldn't learn your usage patterns.
* If you insist on running the Home Edition, you can just disable the Windows Update service. NOTE ON THIS ONE: Microsoft has a few mechanisms to re-enable it behind your back, which I'll admit is douchey. Adobe does that with Acrobat Update, so MS is hardly alone in being douchey. You might need to create a scheduled task that goes and re-disables it every few minutes.
* Blackhole the Windows Update DNS? Or block it on your router? Does the Windows box even need to be connected to the internet if you are using it as harsh suggested to capture transponder data?


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> * On every version of Windows 10 (except Home) [that includes Professional and Student], you can disable Windows Update via the Group Policy.
> * If you don't want to disable it completely, you can set the reboot times to something that works better then "random". It's never actually "random". Windows learns from your usage patterns and tries to accommodate you. If it's just a PC that runs an app and you never touch it other wise, it obviously wouldn't learn your usage patterns.
> * If you insist on running the Home Edition, you can just disable the Windows Update service. NOTE ON THIS ONE: Microsoft has a few mechanisms to re-enable it behind your back, which I'll admit is douchey. Adobe does that with Acrobat Update, so MS is hardly alone in being douchey. You might need to create a scheduled task that goes and re-disables it every few minutes.
> * Blackhole the Windows Update DNS? Or block it on your router? Does the Windows box even need to be connected to the internet if you are using it as harsh suggested to capture transponder data?


Even the Windows Home version will ask before updating if you set your Internet access to "Metered"...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Windows learns from your usage patterns and tries to accommodate you. If it's just a PC that runs an app and you never touch it other wise, it obviously wouldn't learn your usage patterns.


This method doesn't stop Windows from restarting. It just tinkers with the timing of the restart. Remember that this application runs 24/7/365.


> Adobe does that with Acrobat Update, so MS is hardly alone in being douchey.


When it comes to rickety software and poor security, comparing any software against what Adobe does is the highest form of damnation.

I suspect that Adobe may have moved towards a centralized update manager that starts with Windows. It came with the Bridge install that I performed and it is relatively pesky.


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