# Help with Battery Backup



## wohlfie (Dec 28, 2005)

I was at MicroCenter today and, remembering the advice of many on this forum, I purchased a Battery Back-up that was on sale for 39.99.

Before I set it up I wanted to get some advice...most importantly, is this the sort of thing everyone meant or should I return it?

Manufacturer: Power Sentry
Model # 100895
550 va
275 watt

Also, it has three outets with backup and surge protection and 3 with just surge protection. Other than the R15, what else (if anything) should I plug in to the battery?

TV
AV Receiver
DVD Player
DVD Burner
VCR

I would lean toward the AV processor and TV, but don't know if that is too much draw.

Anyone who actually understands this stuff and is willing to explain it, I am am all ears.

Thanks!!!!


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

wohlfie said:


> I was at MicroCenter today and, remembering the advice of many on this forum, I purchased a Battery Back-up that was on sale for 39.99.
> 
> Before I set it up I wanted to get some advice...most importantly, is this the sort of thing everyone meant or should I return it?
> 
> ...


Congrats. Great deal on a UPS. If it were me, I'd probably only put my TV and my reciever considering you didn't list a sat rec or DVR.. 550VA and 275w is a bit low rated and I'd be concerned that you might overload it if you put too much on it.

I'd hook the less critical items to the surge only outlets.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Check your TV's power rating .... most CRT TVs draw more power than your UPS can provide.


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## wohlfie (Dec 28, 2005)

litzdog911 said:


> Check your TV's power rating .... most CRT TVs draw more power than your UPS can provide.


what am I 'totalling', the watts to not exceed the 275?

Anyone know how much the R15 draws of the top of their head?


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Do other computerized devices in your home malfunction or otherwise behave in a way that suggests that your power is unclean? If not, you don't need to clean up your power. If the R-15 fails where other units don't, the problem is the R-15 rather than the quality of the power. That said, power conditioning might improve the behavior of your R-15. A separate air conditioner and a direct, high-quality ground might also help.

If, for whatever reason, you do want to condition your power, you don't need a "battery back-up" of the sort commonly sold to consumers. Such units are great for supplying more or less continuous power to electrical devices but will not compensate for short-duration power events that could affect sensitive digital devices. Instead, you need a much more sophisticated (expensive) unit. Ideally, you would run your own diesel generator so that you can ensure the quality of the power. 

If you want to watch DVDs for a few minutes when the power goes out, you've made a good purchase. Otherwise, I suggest you return the unit and spend your money in some other way.

Cheers,


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## wohlfie (Dec 28, 2005)

wbmccarty said:


> Do other computerized devices in your home malfunction or otherwise behave in a way that suggests that your power is unclean? If not, you don't need to clean up your power. If the R-15 fails where other units don't, the problem is the R-15 rather than the quality of the power. That said, power conditioning might improve the behavior of your R-15. A separate air conditioner and a direct, high-quality ground might also help.
> 
> If, for whatever reason, you do want to condition your power, you don't need a "battery back-up" of the sort commonly sold to consumers. Such units are great for supplying more or less continuous power to electrical devices but will not compensate for short-duration power events that could affect sensitive digital devices. Instead, you need a much more sophisticated (expensive) unit. Ideally, you would run your own diesel generator so that you can ensure the quality of the power.
> 
> ...


No, I don't generally have power problems, but the previous suggestions were a battery back-up would prevent an R15 reset during a 'brown out' due to a storm etc.
Thats really all I was after with spring storm season approaching. I have lost a nymber of recordings in progress due to 'flickering light' type outages in the past stormy seasons.


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## Sneezy (Dec 18, 2006)

I have my R15, DVD & receiver on a battery backup. My TV is on a conditioner. I have terrible power here (live in the burbs JUST out of the city) and our power flickers on a regular basis. The batteries make a huge difference.

Do you NEED one? probably not but for that price it's probably the cost of a cheap line conditioner....

I don't have use for a generator but the batteries I just can't live without.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

wohlfie said:


> No, I don't generally have power problems, but the previous suggestions were a battery back-up would prevent an R15 reset during a 'brown out' due to a storm etc.
> Thats really all I was after with spring storm season approaching. I have lost a nymber of recordings in progress due to 'flickering light' type outages in the past stormy seasons.


A UPS _may_ provide limited protection for its load during a "brown-out." There's been discussion elsewhere of the value of UPS devices in preventing R-15 reboots, of which I'm extremely skeptical.

Power conditioning is way more complicated than folks seem generally to realize. That's why consumer-grade gear is made in the first place.  You might find helpful this article on power issues. The article does have a commercial purpose but nevertheless covers some important fundamentals.

Cheers,

P.S. Wikipedia has an article that looks even better (as usual). See, in particular, the section titled "Choosing a UPS." This section identifies important features not generally found in consumer-grade gear.

Cheers,


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

Only plug the R15 into the "battery backed up" outlet of the UPS.

In order to protect your AV system from power spikes, surges and brown outs you would need to protect every cable and wire and AC plug in the AV system with a surge/spike protector.

To protect it all think of it like you are drawing a circle completely around your AV system. Ther should be no cable or wire or AC cord or coax unprotected from the outside even and including the phone cable.

Many people overlook this important protection or deem it unnecessary UNTIL there's a spike or surge and they lose a receiver, or TV.

Do it right. It's cheap protection and the UPS will make your R15 more reliable.

See this thread... http://67.19.74.172/showthread.php?t=80074


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Also, as long as your R15 DVR is powered by a UPS, it will continue recording during a blackout. Your UPS should power the R15 for ~1hour if it's the only device connected. Of course, if you have a powered multiswitch then it will need to be connected to the UPS also.


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## samo (Nov 9, 2002)

wbmccarty said:


> A UPS _may_ provide limited protection for its load during a "brown-out." There's been discussion elsewhere of the value of UPS devices in preventing R-15 reboots, of which I'm extremely skeptical.
> 
> Power conditioning is way more complicated than folks seem generally to realize. That's why consumer-grade gear is made in the first place.  You might find helpful this article on power issues. The article does have a commercial purpose but nevertheless covers some important fundamentals.
> 
> ...


You are completely out of date on modern consumer grade UPS. Even a cheapest ones today have spike protection and voltage regulators (there are probably some that don't, but most do). They don't even go on battery power for most "brownouts" and effectively are power conditioners with battery backup.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

I'd prefer you said my information was out of date, to avoid getting personal. But, I stand on my original statement. Check the specs of your consumer grade UPS against those listed in the Wikipedia article--you did read it before deprecating my remarks, didn't you? I doubt that you'll find it stacks up well. Yes, the manufacturers claim their units provide spike protection and voltage regulation. But, those are not Boolean, yes-no functions. Instead, there are degrees of spike protection and voltage regulation. Even full power regeneration has its problems. Generally, with respect to UPS units, you get what you pay for. 

You probably misunderstand my comment as indicating that consumer-grade UPS units are useless. That's not the case. I use several in my home. I'm well aware of their limitations. But, given my limited budget, they provide a reasonable compromise between no protection and the much more sophisticated UPS units I use in the data center I for which I'm responsible. My environment has clean power. So, I don't call on their (limited) power conditioning capability to any substantial degree. They are handy in the case of a brief power failure and they provide much better surge suppression than cheap-o units made using a varactor and a few additional discrete components.

Cheers,


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## loudog2 (Jun 22, 2006)

If you have a rear projection tv, I would connect that also. The fan that cools the bulb, runs for a couple minutes after you turn the tv off. Without the fan, your bulbs life will be cut in half. Then comes the $250 shell out to buy a new one.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

loudog2 said:


> If you have a rear projection tv, I would connect that also. The fan that cools the bulb, runs for a couple minutes after you turn the tv off. Without the fan, your bulbs life will be cut in half. Then comes the $250 shell out to buy a new one.


TVs, as a rule, draw too much current to be plugged into a UPS unless the UPS is properly sized. Many electronic and electrical devices draw much more current at "turn-on" then what they draw coasting along when they are running.

At the begining of my learning curve with Dish Network 5xx and 721 PVRs (but well into a long term career in computer design, assembly, troubleshooting, and repair) I put them on a small UPS to eliminate them crashing during a power brown-out or severe ripple. That protection afforded me very reliable operation from those PVRs while many owners were complaining loudly about reliability problems.

I applied that experience to my R15s when I migrated to DTV and it has proven to work there also. With the exception of my original R15-100 (which spontaneously rebooted often) my two R15-300s are remarkably reliable with very few poblems and none of the common "critica" problems that many (rightly) complain about.

My intension was to make my PVRs and now my R15s as relaible as possible and I have achieved that result in spades.

I don't care to keep the DVR recording if the power goes out or watch TV in the middle of a power outage. If that's what you're after then with a little basic electrical knowledge and a little simple arithmetic you can calculate the size UPS you would need to properly support your R15 and multi switch, and TV.

Be warned that your calculations (if you have a sizable TV) will probably lead to a much more substantially sized UPS then that lttle puppy on sale for $39.95 and more like a $600+ commercial unit.

It is true that those DLP type sets with big buck bulbs need a cool down and the fans continue to run after set shut down but to achieve that with a UPS on those TVs you'd need a really substantial UPS. You can try a UPS on those TVs and if your calcualtions are wrong that UPS won't pass the smoke test at TV turn-on and may take out that TV while it's going up in smoke itself.

BUT, that little $40 UPS is what you need just to make your DVRs happy.

As always, free advice is worth what you paid for it


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## wohlfie (Dec 28, 2005)

So it sounds like what I bought will achieve my purpose- keeping the R15 from rebooting with power drop, brownout, or short blackout.

Further, it seems that it likely doesn't have enough juice to power the TV or AV receiver, so I may as well ONLY plug in the R15 - which will maximize the length of time I can be without power without a reboot.

Is this a fair summary of the comments?


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

wohlfie said:


> So it sounds like what I bought will achieve my purpose- keeping the R15 from rebooting with power drop, brownout, or short blackout.
> 
> Further, it seems that it likely doesn't have enough juice to power the TV or AV receiver, so I may as well ONLY plug in the R15 - which will maximize the length of time I can be without power without a reboot.
> 
> Is this a fair summary of the comments?


That's what I'm doing with both my R15-300s and it works for me.

Please let us know if you there's an increase in reliability and less problems with your R15 after it's been on the UPS.

That would be valuable feedback and would help others.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

wohlfie said:


> Is this a fair summary of the comments?


I'd expect even a consumer-grade UPS to provide that limited set of capabilities. However, that isn't to say that any particular unit will do so. There's little to prevent a manufacturer from selling a box with a brick in it as a UPS. UL underwriting is generally a necessary, but insufficient, condition of quality. As always, specifications are important. If a manufacturer doesn't disclose them, there's probably a reason for the omission.

Cheers,


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

wbmccarty said:


> I'd expect even a consumer-grade UPS to provide that limited set of capabilities. However, that isn't to say that any particular unit will do so. There's little to prevent a manufacturer from selling a box with a brick in it as a UPS. UL underwriting is generally a necessary, but insufficient, condition of quality. As always, specifications are important. If a manufacturer doesn't disclose them, there's probably a reason for the omission.Cheers,


wbmccarty,

For the purposes discussed in this thread it's EZ to see if any UPS will do what is required...

1. Plug the UPS into an AC outlet for 24 hours (to let the battery charge)

2. Plug the R15 into the battery backed up outlet on the UPS and turn the R15 on

3. Pull the UPS' AC plug from the wall.

If you hear a beeping alarm from the UPS and the R15 continues to run then the UPS you chose is doing the job for which you bought it. Plug the UPS's power cord back into the outlet and watch TV.

If you don't hear the beeping warning and the R15 shuts down then you forgot to connect the UPS's internal battery, or the battery is not charged, or you have a defective UPS. The solution to any of those three problems is apparent and easily accomplished.

As far as the brick in the UPS statement, gee guy, we're not talknig about a need for a mil/NASA/DOE spec sine wave and perfect square wave UPS here. We're simply looking to keep a questionably designed and executed DVR (mini computer with a HD) with a very simple power supply from crashing during a transient power problem and that is so easily accomplished that it really doesn't merit the bandwidth wasted in this thread debating it.

I see from many of your posts that you are genuinely disgusted with DTV and your DVRs and you have every right to shout that from any roof top that you care to climb and many will cheer what you have to say. But, there's a big difference between the glass being half empty and half full and having no water in it at all.

Some of us are just trying to share the benefits of our specific experiences, knowledge, and expertise with those who wish to hear it.

I know what I did works. It worked marvels with Dish PVRs that make R15s look problem free. It works with both my R15s and those of friends here that have done the same.


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## samo (Nov 9, 2002)

wbmccarty said:


> I'd prefer you said my information was out of date, to avoid getting personal. But, I stand on my original statement. Check the specs of your consumer grade UPS against those listed in the Wikipedia article--you did read it before deprecating my remarks, didn't you? I doubt that you'll find it stacks up well. Yes, the manufacturers claim their units provide spike protection and voltage regulation. But, those are not Boolean, yes-no functions. Instead, there are degrees of spike protection and voltage regulation. Even full power regeneration has its problems. Generally, with respect to UPS units, you get what you pay for.


Apologize if I offended you. Although I didn't say it this way, but I really wanted to say that your information was outdated. And I do agree that you get what you pay for. I just wanted to make a statement that with advances in technology and price drop on electronics, today even cheap UPSs are much better than they used to be just a few years ago. With power being generally clean for most of US urban areas, minor spikes and voltage fluctuations are well taken care off by consumer grade UPSs. Of course if you are trying to protect data center you need something better. But if you are trying to protect R-15, you are talking about $100 unit.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

samo said:


> Apologize if I offended you. Although I didn't say it this way, but I really wanted to say that your information was outdated. And I do agree that you get what you pay for. I just wanted to make a statement that with advances in technology and price drop on electronics, today even cheap UPSs are much better than they used to be just a few years ago. With power being generally clean for most of US urban areas, minor spikes and voltage fluctuations are well taken care off by consumer grade UPSs. Of course if you are trying to protect data center you need something better. But if you are trying to protect R-15, you are talking about $100 unit.


Thanks for the clarification, Samo. Having crossed the half-century mark a few years back, I'm perhaps overly sensitive to the notion that I am personally outdated. 

In any case, there's no disagreement on your main point: consumer-grade UPS units today are way ahead of those only a few years ago. At the time of my posting, it wasn't clear to me that the mission was one of protecting the R-15 and riding out simple brown-outs. We agree that an inexpensive $100 UPS unit will generally achieve that limited goal.

Making up for possible design deficiencies in a unit's power supply is another matter, of course. I myself don't believe that the R-15 suffers that particular deficiency. But, some here seem to think otherwise and have advocated purchase of UPS units in an attempt to mitigate that problem. Again, I don't think the problem exists. But, if it does, I believe that solving such a problem would require a better-than-average UPS. Hence, my original comments.

With respect to points raised by others, the engineering method is one involving specification of a need and choice of a solution that optimally satisfies that need. Except by means of luck, you can't get there without reviewing and understanding specifications.

I had pretty much this same discussion with one of my undergrad students about two years ago. About one year ago, he changed his position on the basis of personal experience: His Chinese-made UPS unit had failed in such a way that it fried the power supply of his PC. That's one problem with a simple "just unplug it" empirical test--it doesn't disclose failure modes. Another is that a typical brown-out is actually a rather complex _series of events_ that include both under-voltage _and over-voltage_ states. Although a _typical_ recently manufactured UPS unit will probably handle such events, a $40 bargain UPS unit having unknown specs may, or may not, do so. Such possibilities are a minor negative consequence of free-market capitalism well expressed in the familiar phrase _caveat emptor_.

If some have lower standards, that's their business. But, I don't feel comfortable offering advice outside a sound engineering paradigm. The engineering paradigm doesn't necessarily provide mil-spec or even commercial-spec solutions. But, I wouldn't express confidence in any configuration decided outside the paradigm. Perhaps I'm unluckier than most, but my personal experience, and that of others in my corner of the universe, reinforces the utility of the paradigm and the importance of the word _caveat_.

_Caveat lector_.

Cheers,


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

wbmccarty said:


> Making up for possible design deficiencies in a unit's power supply is another matter, of course. I myself don't believe that the R-15 suffers that particular deficiency. But, *some here seem to think otherwise and have advocated purchase of UPS units in an attempt to mitigate that problem*. Again, I don't think the problem exists. But, if it does, I believe that solving such a problem would require a better-than-average UPS. Hence, my original comments.


Having past the half century mark a bit ahead of you I admit to a certain amount of ornoryness and crankiness that comes along with that milestone(?).

That said, I should have been more accurate in my posts. Rather than saying "a questionably designed and executed DVR (mini computer with a HD) with a very simple power supply" I should have said "a problematic DVR without a terribly sophisticated power supply". I've been inside an R15 and the power supply, and entire unit, is remarkably cost effective... if you get my drift  .

The OP was referring to a previous thread where I posted my specific experiences with PVRs- DVRs and the annoyances of losing recordings and guide info because of power drops and brown-outs.

I solved these problems by putting these PVR-DVR units on a small (and cost effective) UPS. Nothing special, no sine wave/square wave power, just a (very) short term battery backup in effect. That solved the problems I was having. I've done the same for others and those problems were also solved for them.

That is the first hand experience, cause, and solution I posted in that previous thread.

I don't apply scholarly reflection when faced with a problem, I'm a tech. I do "how" problems, not "why" problems. I see the problem, I identify the cause, and I form a solution. That's what I get paid for. That's what is expected of me and that's what I do. The philosophy of the execcise doesn't concern me. I get paid for results.

Seems to me that spending $40 is a modest enough expense to find out if that cheap UPS will solve the problems for you that it does for me. As far as I can see, putting an R15 on a small UPS will have no negative effects if the UPS and its internal battery are operating properly AND if you buy a brand name like APC they include a free insurance policy that will pay for damage to protected equipment if that UPS fails to protect devices plugged into it.

With respect, I believe you suffer each and every problem you post about with your DTV DVRs and I defend your right to post as often and as loud as you like BUT, I have none of those problems with my two R15s. Maybe, by blind luck, I stumbled on something that mitigates some of those R15 problems or maybe I know what I'm doing, or maybe the DTV gods just smile on my two R15s. Whatever the reason, my R15s work reliably and I'll accept that and watch (and record) TV.

Bottom line, like we said in the school yard 45+ years ago... mine works, how's yours?


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> The OP was referring to a previous thread where I posted my specific experiences with PVRs- DVRs and the annoyances of losing recordings and guide info because of power drops and brown-outs.
> 
> I solved these problems by putting these PVR-DVR units on a small (and cost effective) UPS.


Ah, I think that I now better understand the tone of your previous posting. I wasn't aware of the previous thread and had in mind a similar discussion that occurred months ago. Your most recent posting in this thread is the first report I'm aware of that supplementing the R-15's power supply with a UPS has _actually_ improved reliability. I've previously heard the idea expressed only as a hypothesis. Frankly, I remain skeptical. But, I concede that any actual experience has a certain degree of authority in comparison to a merely theoretical argument. And, I will apologize by saying that I would not have summarily contradicted your opinion if I'd been more aware of its support. Instead, I would have given reasons for my skepticism, as I'll do later in this message.

Personally, I'll wait for reports of replication confirming your experience rather than spend even $40.  But, I'll readily concede that others might find the opportunity attractive. I'll also treat your claim with a bit more respect now that it's been tested to at least some extent. This wouldn't be the first time the world fails to fit informed reason. If it provides you any comfort, I'd prefer than you turn out to be right rather than me. 

My reasons for continued skepticism that a UPS is the general path to R-15 reliability include:

1. Power supplies aren't that hard to design. For the power supply to be the key problem, three manufacturers must have made equivalent design errors. That seems highly unlikely. But, it's possible.

2. Switching power supplies don't require many components. So, your observation concerning the rather inelaborate design of the R-15's power supply seems moot.

3. Proof demands a more elaborate procedural dance than seems to have been done. As I understand your report, it's consistent with the possibility that some factor other than adding the UPS unit is responsible for the improved reliability. To adequately support your claim, at a minimum, you'd need to remove the UPS unit and verify that reliability returns to its original, degraded level as a result. Of course, I fully understand why you might not have chosen to do so: Your goal was to fix your problem rather than determine the scientific validity of a hypothesis. 

4. I think that most of us enjoy relatively clean power. So, even if you confirmed that the UPS unit is the cause of improved reliability of _your_ R-15, I'd tend to put your situation down as idiosyncratic rather than one from which we can generalize.

The bottom line is that I do understand where you're coming from. If our roles were reversed, I'd approach this discussion pretty much as you've done. Unfortunately, I can't agree with your assessment of the situation. But, I've previously seen a few cases in which scientific method converged more slowly on the truth than alternative approaches. So, in the context of all the weirdness surrounding the R-15, I wouldn't be all that surprised to be wrong. If I can find a loose UPS unit aroud the house, I'll even have a go a testing your hypothesis myself. 

Cheers,


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

I know better than to do this but it's kinda fun and great mental exercise...



wbmccarty said:


> Ah, I think that I now better understand the tone of your previous posting. I wasn't aware of the previous thread and had in mind a similar discussion that occurred months ago.


If you read the 9th post in this thread that previous thread is prominently mentioned and there is a link to that address. You seem to take great pains to be accurate and thorough in your posts but I'm not responsible for you "skimming the thread" and missing substantive content.



wbmccarty said:


> Your most recent posting in this thread is the first report I'm aware of that supplementing the R-15's power supply with a UPS has _actually_ improved reliability. I've previously heard the idea expressed only as a hypothesis.


Again, see post 9 in this thread and the link it provides.



wbmccarty said:


> Frankly, I remain skeptical. But, I concede that any actual experience has a certain degree of authority in comparison to a merely theoretical argument.


One man's (woman's) concession to "random success" is another man's (woman's) solution to a problem 



wbmccarty said:


> And, I will apologize by saying that I would not have summarily contradicted your opinion if I'd been more aware of its support.


No apology necessary. You contradicting the reality that my R15s are reliable doesn't alter that reality.



wbmccarty said:


> Personally, I'll wait for reports of replication confirming your experience rather than spend even $40.  But, I'll readily concede that others might find the opportunity attractive. I'll also treat your claim with a bit more respect now that it's been tested to at least some extent. This wouldn't be the first time the world fails to fit informed reason. If it provides you any comfort, I'd prefer than you turn out to be right rather than me.


I asked the OP in the 16th post in this thread to report back with his results.

Too often on the web people ask for help or advice and never report back the results so others may learn (at least) something.



wbmccarty said:


> My reasons for continued skepticism that a UPS is the general path to R-15 reliability include:
> 
> 1. Power supplies aren't that hard to design. For the power supply to be the key problem, three manufacturers must have made equivalent design errors. That seems highly unlikely. But, it's possible.


Power supplies are very easy to design, especially switching supplies. The "flaw in the slaw" is when the production people widen the 1% component design specs to 20% tolerance and cut the assembly cost by 95% and cut the QC to almost nonexistent.

*And AGAIN, I stated in post 21 in this thread that I was inaccurate at describing the problem as the R15's power supply*. You harp on that which I conceded was in error?



wbmccarty said:


> 2. Switching power supplies don't require many components. So, your observation concerning the rather inelaborate design of the R-15's power supply seems moot.


See comment directly above



wbmccarty said:


> 3. Proof demands a more elaborate procedural dance than seems to have been done. As I understand your report, it's consistent with the possibility that some factor other than adding the UPS unit is responsible for the improved reliability. To adequately support your claim, at a minimum, you'd need to remove the UPS unit and verify that reliability returns to its original, degraded level as a result. Of course, I fully understand why you might not have chosen to do so: Your goal was to fix your problem rather than determine the scientific validity of a hypothesis.


I have removed both my R15s from their UPS units from time to time and those little random gremlins that you and many others bring to everyone's attention so regularly do begin to appear. Since putting the R15 back on the UPS seems to resolve them, I don't tolerate them long enough for scientific validation, I just watch TV.

And yet again, I do *how questions* not *why questions*. I'm a tech not an engineer (I work for a living)... and that might explain why I have come up with a solution to my (and some friends) R15's problems while the DTV engineers ponder the complexities of the universe 



wbmccarty said:


> 4. I think that most of us enjoy relatively clean power. So, even if you confirmed that the UPS unit is the cause of improved reliability of _your_ R-15, I'd tend to put your situation down as idiosyncratic rather than one from which we can generalize.


Really? Someone with your apparent background and inquisitive nature should hang a 24 hour recording voltmeter on your electric service drop, you'd really be surprised. While frequency @ 60Hz is dead constant, according to my power company) there's a wide range for acceptable voltage. For $40 (for a cheap UPS) I can hold that to 120vac for my R15.



wbmccarty said:


> The bottom line is that I do understand where you're coming from. If our roles were reversed, I'd approach this discussion pretty much as you've done. Unfortunately, I can't agree with your assessment of the situation. But, I've previously seen a few cases in which scientific method converged more slowly on the truth than alternative approaches. So, in the context of all the weirdness surrounding the R-15, I wouldn't be all that surprised to be wrong. If I can find a loose UPS unit aroud the house, I'll even have a go a testing your hypothesis myself.


What you _think_ has little effect on what I see what I say working with my own eyes.

What I KNOW is that my R15s work reliably and some others do not.

If you really want to KNOW, rather than spend all this time complicating this thread with theoretical ponderence TRY IT YOURSELF. If a UPS resolves even one of your gripes about the R15s that would free up considerable bandwidth on this forum for us to disagree about something else 

If a UPS doesn't improve the performance of your R15 then (in your environment) I'm wrong or I'm lucky or the R15 gods are smiling on my R15s or as my grandmother would say, "God is paying you back for not believing".

*I hope others give this a try and report their experience... PLEASE*


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

subeluvr said:


> *I hope others give this a try and report their experience*


Well, I've had my R15 on a little UPS since I got it in 11/05 and I must admit that I have not had the problems that many have described. I cannot tell whether or not the UPS is the reason for my stable unit because I do not have a UPS-free control R15 for comparison. But that's OK because, like you, I just turn on my TV and watch it.....


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> I have removed both my R15s from their UPS units from time to time and those little random gremlins that you and many others bring to everyone's attention so regularly do begin to appear. Since putting the R15 back on the UPS seems to resolve them, I don't tolerate them long enough for scientific validation, I just watch TV.


Most of your response seems to me to consist of polemical content that would be pointless to rebut and rebuttal of which might lead to personal attacks, which I prefer to avoid. OTOH, I see the remark cited above as highly significant. Based on it, I would agree that the most likely explanation for your experience is that your UPS unit has been responsible for improved reliability of your R-15. I hope that agreement provides evidence of my good faith in this discussion. That is, when you adduce adequate evidence, I can be persuaded of your opinion. 

I admit that I remain somewhat skeptical whether your experience generalizes. But, I am less skeptical of this possibility than previously. It will be interesting to see additional reports. The important element in such a report, however, is the aspect cited above. It must be possible to return the R-15 to a state of degraded reliability by removing the UPS unit. Otherwise, the improvement could be the result of the lack of experimental control.

I'll readily grant that it's not your task to explain, but I remain puzzled how three apparently independent design teams could create power supplies suffering the same defect. For it to have occurred would almost certainly mean that they weren't independent. Has anyone who's opened multiple R-15 models taken note of the power supply designs? Perhaps all models use the same power supply module or power supply design. That, at least, would explain the data in hand.

I'll definitely try to scrounge a UPS unit for testing my own R-15. However, if a UPS unit does solve my problem, l'll be even less complimentary of DTV and the R-15 than at present. 

Cheers,

P.S. There's still some confusion on my part regarding what you believe to be the source of the problem. In your recent posting, you seem to be denying that the problem relates to the power supply. But, it seems to me that, if addition of a UPS unit solves the problem, the problem must be related to the R-15 power supply. Strictly speaking, there might be some other R-15 component or assembly that unreasonably taxes the power supply. But, I'm not concerned to achieve that level of precision. Can you help me understand the miscommunication here?

Cheers,

P.P.S. An APC Back-UPS 500 is now in place. Under your theory of operation, I can't see that an RBR should be necessary. Nevertheless, I'll perform an RBR as soon as it's convenient to do so and will report only behavior subsequent to the RBR.

Cheers,


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

wbmccarty said:


> I remain puzzled how three apparently independent design teams could create power supplies suffering the same defect.


My knee jerk answer is that all three design teams work for companies that were the lowest bidders and within a nickel of each other in cost per unit :lol:

Let's not forget that DTV should/must have provided the design specs and then entertained bids from as many suppliers as possible looking for fastest delivery, sufficent quantity, and cheapest price. It's reasonable to assume that within the pricing and design requirement all or many companies would end up using components and parts from the absolutely cheapest supplier thereby insuring a (lack of) QC and (generally looser and wider ) tolerance of components that would be similar in all those companies. In simpler (but general) terms, to be the cheapest all three companies are using the same $.025 20%-30% IC so all three platforms would/should suffer the same problems.

After carefull consideration and reflection prompted mostly by your extensive vocabulary (and my having to look up a bunch of your unfamiliar words) I'm not sure that the power supplies in the R15s are the main culprits.

Consider this, might the power supplies not be providing adequate current and/or voltage under load at higher than optimal internal chassis temperatures but are barely adequate UNTIL the wall current/voltage drops during a ripple or brown-out and then strange things happen in the R15 processor, hard drive, NVRAN and RAM that manifest themselves as spontaneous and random burps or hiccups?

A vague scenario to be sure, but one that would sustain that even a cheap, simple UPS would provide a more stable current/voltage supply to the R15 curing the hiccups?


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Thanks, that's a helpful analysis. But, I still have trouble with the notion that the failure point for each of the three models is the power supply, rather than, say, the video display on one and the power supply on another. So, I continue to suspect that your experience will not be seen to generalize well. I think it's a peculiar combination of a particular unit, model, and power quality. But, I can't adduce much evidence in support of my view, so I will understand if you find my argument less than persuasive.  And, I sense that we agree that empirical testing trumps theory.

I apologize if my writing style is troublesome. At this point, to express myself differently I'd have to spend time with a dictionary. You could argue that'd be time well spent. But, I figure that few folks read past the message header and so I don't perceive a large return on my potential investment.

Cheers,


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

wbmccarty said:


> I apologize if my writing style is troublesome.


The more beers I have the better I understand ...:grin:


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

The more I think about this thread, the more puzzled I become. Based on my own experience and on problems reported here, I see two categories of R-15 problems: (1) those that are reproducible and (2) those that are not reproducible. Presuming that all three models of the R-15 suffer from similar problems that can be ameliorated by a UPS unit (I'm trying to avoid mentioning power supplies, etc. ), we can account for the non-reproducible problems; that is, problems that would otherwise have occurred if the UPS unit were not installed and cleaning up the A/C power.

But, this theoretical model does not account for the reproducible problems in any way that I can see. Can anyone suggest a way in this a UPS unit might eliminate reproducible problems such as those reported by JimV?

I'm led back to my original conclusion: power may be an issue for some users and some R-15 models. But, installing a UPS unit cannot be the path to R-15 reliability for the great majority of R-15 users who continue to have problems. At least one other significant factor other than power problems must exist. And, personally, I believe that (those) factor(s) to be even more important than quality of A/C power.

Since I've just installed a UPS unit for my R-15, depriving my DSL equipment of its UPS unit, I'd love to be proven wrong in this line of thinking. But, my opinion goes where logic dictates. 

Cheers,


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

*I guess we can beat a dead horse to death, but why?*



wbmccarty said:


> The more I think about this thread, the more puzzled I become. Based on my own experience and on problems reported here, I see two categories of R-15 problems: (1) those that are reproducible and (2) those that are not reproducible. *Presuming that all three models of the R-15* suffer from similar problems that can be ameliorated by a UPS unit (I'm trying to avoid mentioning power supplies, etc. ), we can account for the non-reproducible problems; that is, problems that would otherwise have occurred if the UPS unit were not installed and cleaning up the A/C power.


I NEVER said anything about ALL 3 MODELS OF R15s. I am specifically relaying my specific experience with MY two R15-*300*s.



wbmccarty said:


> I'm led back to my original conclusion: power may be an issue for some users and some R-15 models. *But, installing a UPS unit cannot be the path to R-15 reliability for the great majority of R-15 users who continue to have problems*.


I never said that a UPS was the path to complete reliability and spiritual enlightenment of all R15s and all R15 problems. I was responding to the OP who complained about what a pain in the a$$ it is when HIS power drops out. I related my experience with a small UPS and my R15s and noted that an added bonus was that MY two R15s had been behaving very nicely with very few of the problems others had reported.



wbmccarty said:


> At least one other significant factor other than power problems must exist. And, personally, I believe that (those) factor(s) to be even more important than quality of A/C power.


Could just be your kharma or the R15 gods having a laugh at your expense.



wbmccarty said:


> Since I've just installed a UPS unit for my R-15, depriving my DSL equipment of its UPS unit, I'd love to be proven wrong in this line of thinking. But, my opinion goes where logic dictates.


You continue to take issue with remarks I never made and then continue to argue those points after I've pointed out that Those statements were not in the posts in this thread.

If you want to be both sides of this issue then go ahead. We could have saved a lot of typing if you'd go back and read the posts in this thread instead of putting words in my post for me 

I sincerely hope that the UPS solves every single problem with your R15, but if it does then you still wouldn't be watching TV... you'd spend the rest of your life attempting to understand why the UPS fixed all your problems.

As I've said before, I do "how" questions and not "why" questions. It doesn't matter to me whether you believe me or not because my R15 works great and I'm gonna go watch TV


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

subelvr, you seem to misunderstand. My posting was not intended as a rebuttal to your remarks. I am trying to understand the R-15 in hopes that doing so will lead to strategies for coping with its idiosyncrasies. Certain of your remarks influence my understanding of the problem. But, what I relate is _my_ understanding. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or otherwise win an argument.

I want to account for the universe of observed data concerning the R-15. I'd like your help in doing so. You've contributed several useful data points. What I'm now trying to do is to integrate your contribution into the greater picture.

Make sense?

Cheers,

P.S. I've tried to treat you and your arguments with all due respect. If I have fallen short of this standard at any point, I apologize. It was not my intention to do so. Having said that, would you please consider offering me the reciprocal courtesy? I'd appreciate it.

Cheers,


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

wbmccarty,



wbmccarty said:


> P.S. I've tried to treat you and your arguments with all due respect. If I have fallen short of this standard at any point, I apologize. It was not my intention to do so. Having said that, would you please consider offering me the reciprocal courtesy? I'd appreciate it.


If any of my comments were interpreted by you as snide and disrespectful you have my apology, that was not my intent. It was wrong for me to comment that "whether or not you believe me doesn't matter" and that "my R15s work well and that your's don't"... for that I aplogize.

Setting aside the "meat" of this thread, it gets frustrating when I am told that what I see with my own eyes is NOT and can not be, AND that I have to prove it.

It's frustrating when replies are made that are tangenetial to what I wrote and not on point.

It's frustrating when those comments are made by someone that I've never met, doesn't know me, and who doesn't know my experience and qualifications when I'm just trying to help.

I have learned a valuable lesson (for me) in this exercise... in the future I will share what I know privately with a poster who inquires and spare myself the futility of trying to help people who aren't receptive to that help.

And with that I'm done, have a nice day


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Our agendas differ. And, our backgrounds differ. Such differences tend to complicate communication, as they've done here.

I can see how you might understand my remarks as contradicting your observations, because my knowledge and experience _are_ contradictory to your observations. But, I don't mean to deny your observations. I agree that's one of the greatest insults possible. What I am trying to do is thoroughly understand them and locate their limits so that I can incorporate them into a self-consistent global model. That process necessarily entails some questioning of the observations. I should have made my intention clearer somehow. I apologize for failing to do so. I suspect that this error on my part is at the root of our misunderstanding.

You will almost certainly encounter elsewhere on this forum my ongoing attempts to better understand the R-15. If this sort of interplay upsets you, you might find it helpful to hide my postings. As I suppose you know, that's a common feature in web forums and I suppose this forum's software includes it.

Cheers,


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