# Discussion: Changes in ATSC PSIP handling starting Feb 1, 2005



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I am not sure everyone is aware of this so I thought I would start a thread in an attempt to track issues that are discovered as stations come into PSIP compliance. As the announcement states (See Link), there have been some issues where some OTA sources have improperly implemented the Spec. There may be other issues that may crop up also as the stations add more PSIP information into the streams. The purpose of this thread is to try and help identify them.

http://www.dbstalk.com/announcement.php?f=87

I would like to add, this is a good example of two parties working off a contract (Standard). Both need to agree with the contract and if one does not, it can cause an issue on the other side. There is also the possibility of both parties interperting a grey area differently.

In situations like this, just because the person next door is not seeing this issue does not necessary put the issue in Dish's court. In the past, I have seen people quickly jump to this conclusion. My neigher sees things just fine or my HDTV tuner in my set has no problems. The reason for this can be anything from the HDTV tuner not working with a certain part of the protocal to a defect in how the 811 handles it.

Well lets hope this PSIP transition goes smoothly. From what I see in the announcement above, Dish is taking the proper stands and does seem committed to addressing these issues with what I consider the proper approach.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> I am not sure everyone is aware of this so I thought I would start a thread in an attempt to track issues that are discovered as stations come into PSIP compliance. As the announcement states (See Link), there have been some issues where some OTA sources have improperly implemented the Spec. There may be other issues that may crop up also as the stations add more PSIP information into the streams. The purpose of this thread is to try and help identify them.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/announcement.php?f=87
> 
> ...


Ron,

Can we use this thread to post the callsigns of stations that we don't think are in compliance?

e.g. 811 EPG says Local; no callsign; etc. Will that info get forwarded to Dish and the station for action?


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

Mikey said:


> Ron,
> 
> Can we use this thread to post the callsigns of stations that we don't think are in compliance?
> 
> e.g. 811 EPG says Local; no callsign; etc. Will that info get forwarded to Dish and the station for action?


Assuming we can use this thread to report non-compliance, here goes:

St. Louis MO. FOX O&O KTVI Channel 2. This is the only DT station on my 811 that ALWAYS listed with its UHF channel number and NEVER as it's analog counterpart. So it appears in the EPG as 43-01 insteal of 2-01. This screws up channel order in the guide as well as an inability for the 811 to resolve program info in the guide.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

I'm going to wait until 1FEB to report problems, assuming that reporting here will have an impact.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Good points Mike and Moman. Let me talk to Jason about this to see how far we should take this. I don't think Dish is wanting to take the roll of compliance police and personally I don't either. What the purpose of this thread is to capture issues where they were working last week and have stopped working. I find tracking non-compliance issues are also important, but my gut feeling is to contact the station on these issues. The spirit of this thread is to catch situations of invalid PSIP implementations as they effect the 811 as stations attempt to meet compliance.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

moman19 said:


> Assuming we can use this thread to report non-compliance, here goes:
> 
> St. Louis MO. FOX O&O KTVI Channel 2. This is the only DT station on my 811 that ALWAYS listed with its UHF channel number and NEVER as it's analog counterpart. So it appears in the EPG as 43-01 insteal of 2-01. This screws up channel order in the guide as well as an inability for the 811 to resolve program info in the guide.


Actually DTV and ATV channels are not and cannot be broadcast on the same channel number. The broadcasters that have chosen to make their channel number appear the same are doing so through TVCT (Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table) and PSIP. You can read more on TVCT here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=37901 . Also it is a choice not a mandate to use TVCT to display the same channel number as analog. I would recommending going to http://www.antennaweb.org and identifying what the frequency and channel ID assignments are for the DTV locals in your area. Now if you are saying they are bouncing back and forth 43.1 and 2.1 then yes absolutely this is one of the issues we are talking about in this thread.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

I would also like to reiterate that the 811 continuously monitors the PSIP stream in order to automatically adjust for changes made in the programming stream by the broadcasters. So this issue would apply to any ATSC OTA tuner that handles the PSIP data in a similar fashion. The Samsung OTA unit is also know to have this issue. I am sure there are others.


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

Jason Nipp said:


> ......... Now if you are saying they are bouncing back and forth 43.1 and 2.1 then yes absolutely this is one of the issues we are talking about in this thread.


Well, sort of.....When you first load local DT channels into the 811 by scanning them in, channel 2 (analog) always automatically shows up as the correct channel 2.1 in setup. However, as soon as you tune into the station it always reverts to 43-01 and remains that way 99% of the time with occasional brief switching to 2.1 (but never remains that way long).

Erase all channels and start over: the above scenario repeats exactly. This could be an issue with the station, but they are totally mum and incommunicato. Other St. Louis 811 users have experienced this too with this one channel.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

moman19 said:


> Well, sort of.....When you first load local DT channels into the 811 by scanning them in, channel 2 (analog) always automatically shows up as the correct channel 2.1 in setup. However, as soon as you tune into the station it always reverts to 43-01 and remains that way 99% of the time with occasional brief switching to 2.1 (but never remains that way long).
> 
> Erase all channels and start over: the above scenario repeats exactly. This could be an issue with the station, but they are totally mum and incommunicato. Other St. Louis 811 users have experienced this too with this one channel.


Yup, this is a PSIP error. Did you go to antennaweb to verify which station the station is saying it will map to?


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## jimmyg (Aug 27, 2004)

Is this why my Fox 5 DC is switching between 005-1 and 036-1 all the time? Gets kind of aggravating.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

jimmyg said:


> Is this why my Fox 5 DC is switching between 005-1 and 036-1 all the time? Gets kind of aggravating.


It is possible. When did this start happening? How long has it been going on? And what do you mean by "All the time". I have had situation where the I lose a station and the channel is mapped back to the frequency it is configured under. It then later appears back on line and it moved back to where PSIP indicates it should be. What is the Call sign? Is the neighbors experiencing any issues?

If it is toggling back and forth frequently (like ever couple of minutes or faster), I would suspect a PSIP issue. I would report it to the Station if possible. Good place to start. If it is toggling after few days or so, this might be a signal related issue or they might just be trying to the their PSIP stream right.

About a week ago, I had some very marginal signals. 60% on a number of channels. Well because of marginal channels with a lot of drop off, loosing streams for periods of time, I saw channels getting mapped back to their frequency. So the steps I would suggest.

1) Make sure you have strong streams. 70% or better. Watch it from time to time and see if it drops. 
2) Check with the station if you have mapping issued. Lots of PSIP stuff going on right now. I am sure it will take time for the stations to work things out.


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## trido (Nov 7, 2004)

Jason Nipp said:


> I would also like to reiterate that the 811 continuously monitors the PSIP stream in order to automatically adjust for changes made in the programming stream by the broadcasters. So this issue would apply to any ATSC OTA tuner that handles the PSIP data in a similar fashion. The Samsung OTA unit is also know to have this issue. I am sure there are others.


How do I hook up my local station to the right eng at DISH.

Here is what I was told on my problems.
Hello Jeff

My name is Chris. We are the manufacture of WFIE's PSIP generator. Jim has forwarded your email. I would like to ask what you have found? How do you measure what you are finding. I need to quantify everything. If we have a problem, I want to fix it but, I need to have verifiable data so, what ever you find I need to be able to repeat.

Thanks
Chris
Christopher M. Knechtel
Micronas Semiconductors Inc.
So I need to hook up Chris with Micronas with someone at DISH asap on this issue.

thanks
Trido


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Email me the letter you sent to your station, and the response you got from Micronas, preferably with phone numbers if you have them, and I'll get it to the right people at Dish. Email address is in the sig.


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## tonyp56 (Apr 26, 2004)

I experience the same problem that has been explained above, on the WB out of OKC, (KOCB-DT) the frequency number is 33, and randamonly it will actually show up under 34.1, but most of the time (90%) it shows up as 33.1 in my guide. When it does show up under 34.1 it has guide data, but when it is listed as 33.1 it only says "Local Digital". Second question, why is it 23.1 (a Tulsa Fox station supposedly out side of my DMA) have guide data, (tells me whats on, what it is about, etc...) but 9.1 (OKC CBS station, inside my DMA) only says "Local Digital", and the only other channel besides 23.1 that shows guide data is PAX (both Tulsa and OKC when I can tune them both, in which case 44.1 and 62.1 are the only ones with guide data, the other three sub channels for each Pax stations show Local Digital, but I know that this is supposed to be).


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## trido (Nov 7, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Email me the letter you sent to your station, and the response you got from Micronas, preferably with phone numbers if you have them, and I'll get it to the right people at Dish. Email address is in the sig.


I emailed Mark but in case he is busiy tonite I need a fast answer.
My local station wants to borrow my 811 to get this problem solved

Question can they or anyone use the 811 for OTA digital receiver ONLY not hooked to a DISH NETWORK DISH system
I was thinking I read NO.

Thanks
Good to see the local station take an interest in this problem they have had ONLY two calls on it so far.

Trido


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

tonyp56 said:


> I experience the same problem that has been explained above, on the WB out of OKC, (KOCB-DT) the frequency number is 33, and randamonly it will actually show up under 34.1, but most of the time (90%) it shows up as 33.1 in my guide. When it does show up under 34.1 it has guide data, but when it is listed as 33.1 it only says "Local Digital". Second question, why is it 23.1 (a Tulsa Fox station supposedly out side of my DMA) have guide data, (tells me whats on, what it is about, etc...) but 9.1 (OKC CBS station, inside my DMA) only says "Local Digital", and the only other channel besides 23.1 that shows guide data is PAX (both Tulsa and OKC when I can tune them both, in which case 44.1 and 62.1 are the only ones with guide data, the other three sub channels for each Pax stations show Local Digital, but I know that this is supposed to be).


I have the same problem as you, except the Fox station for OKC is 24.1, and maps to the analog channel number, 25. That one shows good EPG data. Only 3 of the 9 local OKC digital stations show any EPG data. I had hopes for KFOR-DT, since they were doing PSIP upgrades last week, but no joy.


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## trido (Nov 7, 2004)

trido said:


> I emailed Mark but in case he is busiy tonite I need a fast answer.
> My local station wants to borrow my 811 to get this problem solved
> 
> Question can they or anyone use the 811 for OTA digital receiver ONLY not hooked to a DISH NETWORK DISH system
> ...


OOPS I think I found my own answer I unplugged dish and no I cant get to the HD locals casue you get to any menue all it does is try to acuire sat.Unless anyone knows a way around this
trido


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

trido said:


> OOPS I think I found my own answer I unplugged dish and no I cant get to the HD locals casue you get to any menue all it does is try to acuire sat.Unless anyone knows a way around this
> trido


That is correct. You must be hooked up to a Dish but the receiver does not have to be authorized to receive local OTAs.


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## trido (Nov 7, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> That is correct. You must be hooked up to a Dish but the receiver does not have to be authorized to receive local OTAs.


ok would have to be hooked up to a dish that IS pointing and seeing the DISH NET SAT?

So maybe if station has a small 18" dish and they pointed at any DISH SAT then it might receive OTA DT siganl?

Or do I have all confused?

thanks

Trido


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

trido said:


> ok would have to be hooked up to a dish that IS pointing and seeing the DISH NET SAT?
> 
> So maybe if station has a small 18" dish and they pointed at any DISH SAT then it might receive OTA DT siganl?
> 
> ...


What they would need is two things. One would be an OTA input from an OTA antenna that would be hooked up into the antenna input on the 811. The other would be a Dish network Dish with an LNBF that could hook into an 811. I doubt they would have a Dish hookup.


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## cpdretired (Aug 25, 2003)

I hope no one minds a link from the other forum. Apparently several people including myself are having PSIP issues with freeze ups. Box won't reboot and so on. Tech support has no clue as to the problem. If someone can get this information to the 811 team it would be appreciated.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=44447&page=2&pp=15


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

Well, Feb. 1 has come and gone and only 2 of my OTA locals appear to be presenting proper PSIP data (WBNG 12-1 and WIVT 34-1). In Binghamton, WSKG public television is showing up as 42-1 and 42-2 (the digital channel numbers) -- should be 46-1 and 46-2, and Fox/UPN are showing up as 8-1 and 8-2 (also the digital channel niumbers) -- should be 40-1 and 40-2.


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## julesism (Feb 25, 2004)

most of the major dallas channels have been fine. i noticed that KUVN-DT (univision) and KSTR-DT (telefutra) now map to their analog number. The funny thing is KDFI-DT (Ind.) has done the opposite. It is now on it's assigned DT @ 36 and only says local digital. It used to map to it's analog 27 and showed programming info. I've cleaned out the lists and done a rescan many times, even tried manually adding it but it's always on 36 now.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

Same thing here with one of my local Sacramento stations (KVIE-PBS) channel 6. I would say 90% of the time it is mapped to its analog channel (53) and says local digital. I also have done the deletion, reboot, rescan and everything in between but it always comes back as 53 and not channel 6.1.

And now a new issue to make matters worse, all my Dish provided locals are missing. I have had my 811 since September and never an issue with these stations missing. I looked at all settings and nothing has changed.


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