# DIRECTV HD Receiver with TiVo (Official Q2 2011 Thread)



## Mike Bertelson

Folks, there's precious little to say about the upcoming DIRECTV TiVo-based device that hasn't already been said, but here's the thread for you to say it. There really is nothing new but if there is you'll read it here. 

Synopsis of common arguments: (in other words, this ground's already been trodden, do we have to go there again?)

Many people like the TiVo interface, especially the list guide. 
Many people are equally fond of the DIRECTV interface. 
Many people think that TiVos are easier for them to use.
Many people think that DIRECTV DVRs are easier for them to use.
Standalone TiVo devices have many features that are appealing to people. 
No guarantee has been made that any feature from a standalone TiVo will make it to the DIRECTV TiVo. 
The new device will run on DIRECTV hardware, although we don't know how that will work (we have some ideas). 
TiVo, Inc. will develop the software for the device and seems to be solely responsible for the user experience.
Ground Rules:

DISCUSS THE TOPIC NOT EACH OTHER.
This is not a free-for-all. Rudeness will not be tolerated.
Remember that all forum rules are still in effect.
Do not "bump" this thread.
Other threads relating to the DirecTV TiVo-HD Receiver will be closed. 
If you harp on a particular point to the exclusion of others, your posts may be deleted.

Further, we've learned that the new TiVo for DIRECTV will *not* have the upgraded user experience seen in the TiVo Premiere.


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## Stuart Sweet

Please commence Bloo-blooping!


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## hdtvfan0001

I anticipate we will NOT see the new DirecTivo HD DVR this quarter.


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## Doug Brott

You might be wrong .. Q2 is a good possibility.


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## tonyd79

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I anticipate we will NOT see the new DirecTivo HD DVR this quarter.


Not unless it comes out this afternoon.


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## Scott Kocourek

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I anticipate we will NOT see the new DirecTivo HD DVR this quarter.





Doug Brott said:


> You might be wrong .. Q2 is a good possibility.


WOO HOO, then everyone will be happy! :sure:


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## ffemtreed

This thread is a day early. who do I file my complaint with?


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## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> You might be wrong .. Q2 is a good possibility.


Yeah....where have I heard that tune before.... :lol:


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## jacmyoung

ffemtreed said:


> This thread is a day early. who do I file my complaint with?


This is a very serious and solemn subject, starting it on 4/1 would tarnish its image

Seriously though, June is not too far away, certainly much sooner than 3 years.


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## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> This is a very serious and solemn subject, starting it on 4/1 would tarnish its image
> 
> Seriously though, June is not too far away, certainly *much sooner than 3 years*.


Then again....Christmas is only 268 days away.... !rolling


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## andunn27

If everything continues to go smoothly then late Q2 is a definite possibility…


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## mkdtv21

I don't know if this has already been discussed but will services such as Directv Active, Gamelounge and sportsguide work with the this Tivo? Since it's just Tivo making the software I'd say no. But it looks like what it says on the Tivo site it will support Directv On Demand. Maybe the peanut remote will have the four colored buttons along with the active button like the current Directv remotes.


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## joehandy2011

*SO, when this is released in Q2 (hopefully...), will it be sold in stores such as Best Buy or will it be sold through TiVo or DirecTv? I really don't guess it matters much...I just hope it's equal to or better than my HR22...Please God, let it be AT LEAST that good... *


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## Jeremy W

mkdtv21 said:


> I don't know if this has already been discussed but will services such as Directv Active, Gamelounge and sportsguide work with the this Tivo?


DirecTV has very specifically stated that these will be included in the new Tivo.


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## jal

joehandy2011 said:


> *SO, when this is released in Q2 (hopefully...), will it be sold in stores such as Best Buy or will it be sold through TiVo or DirecTv? I really don't guess it matters much...I just hope it's equal to or better than my HR22...Please God, let it be AT LEAST that good... *


How noisy is your HR22? My Hr20's are noisy. The hard drives clicking away are louder than the programming volume at times. Too bad TIVO isnt developing the hardware as well. My trusty old HR10-250 is whisper quiet.


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## MysteryMan

jal said:


> How noisy is your HR22? My Hr20's are noisy. The hard drives clicking away are louder than the programming volume at times. Too bad TIVO isnt developing the hardware as well. My trusty old HR10-250 is whisper quiet.


My HR22-100 was installed 14 months ago. Like your HR10-250 it is very reliable and is very quiet.


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## jal

Good to know. I'd be disappointed if the TIVO came and it was noisy.


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## wingrider01

joehandy2011 said:


> *SO, when this is released in Q2 (hopefully...), will it be sold in stores such as Best Buy or will it be sold through TiVo or DirecTv? I really don't guess it matters much...I just hope it's equal to or better than my HR22...Please God, let it be AT LEAST that good... *


the hr10 was handled by Directv, Directv no longer places boxes in the retail outlets like Best Buy, neither do they sell units. Best guess - leased through Directv, possible monthly surcharge for the unit, hack ability removed as in the HR2X's As far as good or better, supposedly it it built on the HR22, so the only "better" would be the software - and it is reported to be a HR10 w/ Mpeg4 capability.


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## hdtvfan0001

andunn27 said:


> If everything continues to go smoothly then late Q2 is a definite possibility&#8230;


April Fool.


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## bonscott87

Q2....2012?


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## joehandy2011

*I honestly haven't noticed my HR22 being noisy at all...I'm seriously thinking about upgrading to the HR24 if the new TiVo box doesn't rock my world (which, I've been hearing, it won't)... *



jal said:


> How noisy is your HR22? My Hr20's are noisy. The hard drives clicking away are louder than the programming volume at times. Too bad TIVO isnt developing the hardware as well. My trusty old HR10-250 is whisper quiet.


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## inkahauts

joehandy2011 said:


> *I honestly haven't noticed my HR22 being noisy at all...I'm seriously thinking about upgrading to the HR24 if the new TiVo box doesn't rock my world (which, I've been hearing, it won't)... *


Now that's a good idea..


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## matt

I've about run out of anticipation for this thing. I hope it comes out soon so we can move on.


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## Rich

matt said:


> I've about run out of anticipation for this thing. I hope it comes out soon so we can move on.


Glad to see you weren't holding your breath....:lol:

Rich


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## Stuart Sweet

Well, my latest WAG is that we see an unveiling before July 1, but general availability gets delayed until at least December 1.


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## Doug Brott

Yeah, GA will be hard to pin down.


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## Rich

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well, my latest WAG is that we see an unveiling before July 1, but general availability gets delayed until at least December 1.


Thanx for the chuckle....:lol:

Rich


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## SaLance

If anything, TiVo must have done something right somewhere to get people talking about this unit for this long :lol: I mean, I hear more people talking about D*TiVo than I heard people talking about Duke Nukem Forever, and I frequent more game forums! :eek2:


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## tonyd79

SaLance said:


> If anything, TiVo must have done something right somewhere to get people talking about this unit for this long :lol: I mean, I hear more people talking about D*TiVo than I heard people talking about Duke Nukem Forever, and I frequent more game forums! :eek2:


Nah, we talked a whole quarter about new HD channels that almost didn't come. We just like to talk.


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## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> Well, my latest WAG is that we see an unveiling before July 1, but general availability gets *delayed* until at least December 1.


Who would be responsible for this kind of delay?


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## bonscott87

jacmyoung said:


> Who would be responsible for this kind of delay?


Well that would all depend. It's either Tivo saying "it's not ready, we need more time" or it's DirecTV saying "Tivo, it's not ready get back to work".

In the end of course we'll never know but in either case it's on Tivo's shoulders to deliver.


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## tonyd79

bonscott87 said:


> Well that would all depend. It's either Tivo saying "it's not ready, we need more time" or it's DirecTV saying "Tivo, it's not ready get back to work".
> 
> In the end of course we'll never know but in either case it's on Tivo's shoulders to deliver.


Or simply they do a gradual rollout for inventory purposes (getting the things in the supply line as well as getting a feel for demand) and support (training the CSRs....yes, I wrote that with a straight face...installers and others).

Since they are not doing a software download, I can see this taking time.


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## mashandhogan

My money is on NO TIVO. Anyway, I have only used the D* model.


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## Scott Kocourek

After reading about the DirecTivo for so long it occoured to me, I have seen or used many of the DirecTv receivers and almost all of the recent ones, I wonder if I will ever actually get to play with the new Tivo when it comes out? I don't know anyone (in real life  ) that is waiting for this to come out and I am sure they would not want to pay more for it than a regular HDDVR.


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## inkahauts

SO in other words, will it ever really exsit at all for many of us?


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## Sixto

I'm intrigued to just see what they've taken 3 years to develop, for $15M-$20M. Just curious.

Also curious to see how smooth the MPEG4 HD TrickPlay is, as a comparison. 

And remote responsiveness in general, being that the hardware is the same.


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## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> Who would be responsible for this kind of delay?


If TiVo's previous track record is any indication, they will show a device that simply doesn't work well enough to go into general availability. So they would be responsible.


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## tonyd79

"Sixto" said:


> I'm intrigued to just see what they've taken 3 years to develop, for $15M-$20M. Just curious.
> 
> Also curious to see how smooth the MPEG4 HD TrickPlay is, as a comparison.
> 
> And remote responsiveness in general, being that the hardware is the same.


It will be interesting to see in that environment. My experience with HD trickplay in TiVo is not that different from that with directv DVRs but mpeg4 adds another wrinkle I didn't deal with. OTA versus OTA, they were quite the same.


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## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> If TiVo's previous track record is any indication, they will show a device that simply doesn't work well enough to go into general availability. So they would be responsible.


Were there any delays in GA of the previous DirecTiVo generations due to bugs? I thought delay in GA due to buggy boxes only happened on Dish I can certainly understand why people want to blame TiVo for any delay when this thing has no significance for DirecTV. On the other hand having no significance makes DirecTV a suspect in the delay.

BTW this is OT but couldn't find it anywhere, a link if anyone has this. I just learned from a DirecTV flyer YouTube is available, but I had to use the search function to find the clips, is there better way to get YouTube directly off my HR24s?

If they continue to work on the streaming part of things, leveling the playing field with the new standalone TiVo boxes, the new DirecTiVo would be less and less significant.


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## tonyd79

jacmyoung said:


> BTW this is OT but couldn't find it anywhere, a link if anyone has this. I just learned from a DirecTV flyer YouTube is available, but I had to use the search function to find the clips, is there better way to get YouTube directly off my HR24s?


No, it is just part of Smart Search. No support for "most recent" or "most watched" or subscriptions.


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## Doug Brott

mashandhogan said:


> My money is on NO TIVO. Anyway, I have only used the D* model.


There will be a new TiVo .. It's in testing now and will hopefully be qualified soon. Distribution may or may not be a problem, but we've seen it take a couple of months to get new HR2x models rolled out. It's hard to say with the TiVo as it may be special order anyway meaning all equipment is at a central location and shipped to the customer. In that situation, distribution could happen more quickly. No need to fill a larger supply chain.


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## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Were there any delays in GA of the previous DirecTiVo generations due to bugs? I thought delay in GA due to buggy boxes only happened on Dish I can certainly understand why people want to blame TiVo for any delay when this thing has no significance for DirecTV. On the other hand having no significance makes DirecTV a suspect in the delay.
> 
> BTW this is OT but couldn't find it anywhere, a link if anyone has this. I just learned from a DirecTV flyer YouTube is available, but I had to use the search function to find the clips, is there better way to get YouTube directly off my HR24s?
> 
> If they continue to work on the streaming part of things, leveling the playing field with the new standalone TiVo boxes, the new DirecTiVo would be less and less significant.


If you want to blame DIRECTV go right ahead .. but when DIRECTV gets the equipment in their hands over a year late I just don't see how it makes sense. Certainly it's still prudent for DIRECTV to qualify this product since it's their name that will be attached (TiVo is the sub-contractor).


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## somguy

Do we have any idea of what this new Directv TIVO will cost? Will there be a monthly or lifetime fee and if so how much? Will it be anything like the old HR10-250 old Directv TIVO DVR? Will it come in black? Any idea of what the specs will be like recording capacity, etc.? Shall we assume that like all other new Directv hardware and software to expect many issues with it, at least for the first 6 months? Any input I welcome and thank you for your time.


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## Rich

somguy said:


> Do we have any idea of what this new Directv TIVO will cost? Will there be a monthly or lifetime fee and if so how much? Will it be anything like the old HR10-250 old Directv TIVO DVR? Will it come in black? Any idea of what the specs will be like recording capacity, etc.? Shall we assume that like all other new Directv hardware and software to expect many issues with it, at least for the first 6 months? Any input I welcome and thank you for your time.


I can't see how it could be competitive if it's much more expensive than a 24. And I don't expect to have a mind blowing experience using it. Will it have problems? The old ones had plenty of problems and little support, so...

Rich


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## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> I can't see how it could be competitive if it's much more expensive than a 24. And I don't expect to have a mind blowing experience using it. Will it have problems? The old ones had plenty of problems and little support, so...
> 
> Rich


I'm guessing (totally pulling a number out of thin air here) that it will be an extra $3 to $5 per month.

Would anybody pay $3 to $5 per month for the Tivo box? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I *MIGHT* go an extra $1.99 *IF* it didn't have any deal breakers (FOR ME) and it supported the QWERTY remote.

If it has a deal breaker and/or doesn't support the QWERTY remote, whats the point?

You know, I just had an interesting idea... right now we pay $7/month for the HR2x boxes. Since the Tivo will be a stripped down version, maybe DTV will charge LESS???? Maybe $5 to $6? As in, if all you've got is Tivo DVRs, you pay $5 to $6 and if you have *any* HR2x's, you pay the full blown $7 + $3 if you get MRV.

That makes sense to me... pay less for a less manly box.

So of course, DTV won't do that .


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## Richierich

Also, if you pay $3 to $5 a month there will be a one time Upfront Charge or probably $300 and then you won't get WHDVR Service Compatibility (Multi Room Viewing) so I think it will be a "YAWN" or a "Ho Hum" the New Directivo is here, Big Deal!!! 

Actually not a Big Deal!!! 

Too Bad but we will wait and see and at least this Thread will disappear!!! :lol:


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## andunn27

somguy said:


> Do we have any idea of what this new Directv TIVO will cost? Will there be a monthly or lifetime fee and if so how much? Will it be anything like the old HR10-250 old Directv TIVO DVR? Will it come in black? Any idea of what the specs will be like recording capacity, etc.? Shall we assume that like all other new Directv hardware and software to expect many issues with it, at least for the first 6 months? Any input I welcome and thank you for your time.


Current bugs and glitches are being worked on. There is collaboration with both parties and when Tivo and Directv are happy with a final release candidate an official release will happen shortly after.


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## jacmyoung

"andunn27" said:


> Current bugs and glitches are being worked on. There is collaboration with both parties and when Tivo and Directv are happy with a final release candidate an official release will happen shortly after.


Does this mean it is currently still not ready and beta testing is still on-going?


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## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> Does this mean it is currently still not ready and beta testing is still on-going?


Beta testing has been going on for 3 yrs. Seriously. It was announced in 2008 and has been delayed millions of times since then.


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## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> Since the Tivo will be a stripped down version, maybe DTV will charge LESS????


Stripped down compared to what?


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## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> Stripped down compared to what?


Compared to the HR series. Stripped down is probably a bit much but we do know there will be some features the HR's have that the DirecTiVo won't.

Mike


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## Davenlr

Mike Bertelson said:


> Compared to the HR series. Stripped down is probably a bit much but we do know there will be some features the HR's have that the DirecTiVo won't.
> 
> Mike


And hopefully they will add one (suggestions) which DirecTv has refused to add


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## tonyd79

"Davenlr" said:


> And hopefully they will add one (suggestions) which DirecTv has refused to add


I think cannot add. That is a TiVo only item, no?

And a complete waste of one. Never worked for me. Always suggested things I already recorded.


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## Davenlr

You didnt train it right. I did the thumbs up/down thing with mine for two weeks, and now its recording shows all day and night (got a 2TB drive in it), and its all stuff I would watch if I didnt have any life, but it catches at least two hours a day of things I do watch, and would have if I had known it was on. Probably not as good with a multiperson household, but works perfectly for me. And I believe DirecTv bought patent rights from Tivo several years ago, so I would think they could add it. Even SageTV DVR software for PC/Linux has it.


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## tonyd79

"Davenlr" said:


> You didnt train it right. I did the thumbs up/down thing with mine for two weeks, and now its recording shows all day and night (got a 2TB drive in it), and its all stuff I would watch if I didnt have any life, but it catches at least two hours a day of things I do watch, and would have if I had known it was on. Probably not as good with a multiperson household, but works perfectly for me. And I believe DirecTv bought patent rights from Tivo several years ago, so I would think they could add it. Even SageTV DVR software for PC/Linux has it.


No they did not buy patent rights from TiVo. They bought Replay. They signed a non-sue agreement with TiVo.

I trained it just fine. It is a weak algorithm and a dumb idea. Besides it should work by what you watch (which sets thumbs) not by working your butt off to tell it what to do.

As for how weak it is, why would it suggest items already in my to do list. That is an indication of sloppy programming.

Maybe my tastes were too eclectic for it. I watch various cartoons so it suggested the smurfs! Yuck! There was no judgement for quality or age group. No consideration for performers or directors just genres.

I had three TiVos over many versions and suggestions almost never found anything for me that I didn't already know about.

And, I hated having it record when I didn't tell it to. Very annoying to see the light on when I wasn't recording anything. I hated it and turned it off despite attempts to use it preriodically.


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## sigma1914

tonyd79 said:


> No they did not buy patent rights from TiVo. They bought Replay. They signed a non-sue agreement with TiVo.
> 
> I trained it just fine. It is a weak algorithm and a dumb idea. Besides it should work by what you watch (which sets thumbs) not by working your butt off to tell it what to do.
> 
> As for how weak it is, why would it suggest items already in my to do list. That is an indication of sloppy programming.
> 
> Maybe my tastes were too eclectic for it. I watch various cartoons so it suggested the smurfs! Yuck! There was no judgement for quality or age group. No consideration for performers or directors just genres.
> 
> I had three TiVos over many versions and suggestions almost never found anything for me that I didn't already know about.
> 
> And, I hated having it record when I didn't tell it to. Very annoying to see the light on when I wasn't recording anything. I hated it and turned it off despite attempts to use it preriodically.


I'm with you. I hated suggestions and turned them off with every Tivo. I was given a brain and the ability to decide what to watch & record.


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## Groundhog45

Suggestions were quickly turned off on the two DTivos I had (R10, HR10). Didn't like the stuff it picked or the amount of space it tied up.


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## Davenlr

Groundhog45 said:


> Suggestions were quickly turned off on the two DTivos I had (R10, HR10). Didn't like the stuff it picked or the amount of space it tied up.


Well, I see you guys dont like it. I do. At least I have a choice to turn it off rather than not having it at all. And it doesnt take up any space, as I would define space. No more space than random bytes on the drive. Scheduled recordings will always erase suggestions, and suggestions will never hamper your viewing and recording...they just kind of record in the background, like DirecTv's PPV movies, except those DO use up hard drive space you cannot use.

I watch mainly news and science shows, which are plentifully spread across several channels. While my brain does select shows of interest to me, I work 10 hrs a day, and really dont have time to look through program schedules every night for 30 minutes, instead of watching the recordings.


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## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> Were there any delays in GA of the previous DirecTiVo generations due to bugs? I thought delay in GA due to buggy boxes only happened on Dish I can certainly understand why people want to blame TiVo for any delay when this thing has no significance for DirecTV. On the other hand having no significance makes DirecTV a suspect in the delay.
> 
> BTW this is OT but couldn't find it anywhere, a link if anyone has this. I just learned from a DirecTV flyer YouTube is available, but I had to use the search function to find the clips, is there better way to get YouTube directly off my HR24s?
> 
> If they continue to work on the streaming part of things, leveling the playing field with the new standalone TiVo boxes, the new DirecTiVo would be less and less significant.


The HR10-250 was over 9 months delayed from when Tivo said it was supposed to hit the market, so yes, Tivo has shown in the past that it is bad at meeting deadlines with directv (delays had to do with HD and getting OTA into the box to work properly with the guide data all in one interface, from what I understand) . in fact, I believe the original Directvio was also latter by a few months than anticipated. It also lacked dual tuners when it first shipped, and didn't get that till a latter software update.


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## inkahauts

Davenlr said:


> And hopefully they will add one (suggestions) which DirecTv has refused to add


I have found that setting up a few good Boolean ARSLs are far more effective for me than auto record with tivo ever was...


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## tonyd79

Davenlr said:


> they just kind of record in the background, like DirecTv's PPV movies, except those DO use up hard drive space you cannot use.


A bit of a red herring. Tivo has a portion of the disk they use as well. Where do you think they load commercials (called showcases)?


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## Mike Bertelson

Davenlr said:


> And hopefully they will add one (suggestions) which DirecTv has refused to add


I'm completely guessing there but since Suggestions is a TiVo staple I would think it's in there...of course I've been wrong before. :grin:

Mike


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## ATARI

sigma1914 said:


> I'm with you. I hated suggestions and turned them off with every Tivo. I was given a brain and the ability to decide what to watch & record.


+1


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## SledgeHammer

Davenlr said:


> You didnt train it right. I did the thumbs up/down thing with mine for two weeks, and now its recording shows all day and night (got a 2TB drive in it),


When I had my HR10-250, I had auto suggestions on, but auto record off. I would go through and triple thumb up everything I liked and triple thumb down everything I didn't. I did that for a month and it NEVER got more accurate.


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## jacmyoung

inkahauts said:


> The HR10-250 was over 9 months delayed from when Tivo said it was supposed to hit the market, so yes, Tivo has shown in the past that it is bad at meeting deadlines with directv (delays had to do with HD and getting OTA into the box to work properly with the guide data all in one interface, from what I understand) . in fact, I believe the original Directvio was also latter by a few months than anticipated. It also lacked dual tuners when it first shipped, and didn't get that till a latter software update.


I was responding to Stuart's comment about a delay from the initial availability to general availability. I was not asking about a delay from vaporware to general availability.


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## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I was responding to Stuart's comment about a delay from the initial availability to general availability. I was not asking about a delay from vaporware to general availability.


It's all speculation .. GA could be immediate as I indicated earlier. All depends on the distribution mechanism. If a supply chain needs to be filled, it could take a bit longer, but this is a process issue and also happens with other DIRECTV receivers. All I know is that it won't start until there is a final :up: from DIRECTV. Once the qualification is complete it could be the next day when it's available or it could be down the road a bit. I really don't know.

The bottom line is that whatever that time frame is, the expectation is no different now than when the agreement was first signed. This (potential) "delay" was already built into the original estimate .. or at least is should have been.


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## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Once the qualification is complete it could be the next day when it's available or it could be down the road a bit. I really don't know.


What about the previous generations of DirecTiVos in this regard, were there any delays after qualifications?


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## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> What about the previous generations of DirecTiVos in this regard, were there any delays after qualifications?


You mean in 2004 (HR10-250)? or 2000 (SAT-T60)? I have no idea, but that was 7+ years ago. Plus it originally started as TiVo doing the marketing (in 2000) then DIRECTV took over later in the cycle. I don't think you can even remotely make a correlation.


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## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> I was responding to Stuart's comment about a delay from the initial availability to general availability. I was not asking about a delay from vaporware to general availability.


And I would look at TiVo's experience rolling out their Comcast and Virgin devices. Not exactly stellar performance.


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## Doug Brott

Since DIRECTV is doing the marketing and distribution, the best you can do is look at the recent DVRs .. HR24. But those are generally brought to you by an installer when you order from DIRECTV. Will the TiVo be the same? I don't know :shrug:


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## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> You mean in 2004 (HR10-250)? or 2000 (SAT-T60)? I have no idea, but that was 7+ years ago. Plus it originally started as TiVo doing the marketing (in 2000) then DIRECTV took over later in the cycle. I don't think you can even remotely make a correlation.


If I recall correctly DirecTiVos took off in 2006, presumably after DirecTV took over the marketing, and it just so happened it was around the time TiVo won the case against E*. Since DirecTV will do the marketing this time, one could say the new DirecTiVo will be in good hands, if history is any indication.

That is of course if DirecTV is as enthusiastic about TiVo now as in 2006, which by consensus the answer seems to be negative this time around.


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## CuriousMark

tonyd79 said:


> A bit of a red herring. Tivo has a portion of the disk they use as well. Where do you think they load commercials (called showcases)?


Not really. Showcases are 10 minutes, maybe 20 of video. Not one or more two hour HD movies.


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## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> And I would look at TiVo's experience rolling out their Comcast and Virgin devices. Not exactly stellar performance.


Comcast was a failure. Virgin looks like a success to me. No delays, people love it.


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## Stuart Sweet

Certainly Virgin is much better but didn't the box initially ship without one of the tuners being turned on or something?


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## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> If I recall correctly DirecTiVos took off in 2006, presumably after DirecTV took over the marketing, and it just so happened it was around the time TiVo won the case against E*. Since DirecTV will do the marketing this time, one could say the new DirecTiVo will be in good hands, if history is any indication.
> 
> That is of course if DirecTV is as enthusiastic about TiVo now as in 2006, which by consensus the answer seems to be negative this time around.


Yes, DIRECTV was extraordinarily enthusiastic about TiVo during the six or so months when their own HD DVR was running late. I wouldn't read much into that.


----------



## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> Certainly Virgin is much better but didn't the box initially ship without one of the tuners being turned on or something?


Yes, but it was announced that way. And it was turned on within two months of launch. There are some other nits that can certainly be picked, but nothing that rises to the level you are implying.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> Yes, DIRECTV was extraordinarily enthusiastic about TiVo during the six or so months when their own HD DVR was running late. I wouldn't read much into that.


DIRECTV was pushing it "when their own HD DVR was running late" is reading something into it. There are always reasons why one company is enthusastic about a product.

One thing has been demonstrated, whether DirecTV, TiVo or some other guy, if they are enthusiastic about the product they can deliver. However if it is a partnership of two, it takes these two to tango. There is almost no reason left for DirecTV to be motivated about this product.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> One thing has been demonstrated, whether DirecTV, TiVo or some other guy, if they are enthusiastic about the product they can deliver. However if it is a partnership of two, it takes these two to tango. There is almost no reason left for DirecTV to be motivated about this product.


You do realize that DIRECTV's enthusiasm peaked when they signed the non-litigation extension in September 2008. They entered into a win-win situation (in the grand scheme of things). It doesn't really matter (to DIRECTV) if the DIRECTV TiVo sees the light of day or not .. If it does, great, if it doesn't, great.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> You do realize that DIRECTV's enthusiasm peaked when they signed the non-litigation extension in September 2008. They entered into a win-win situation (in the grand scheme of things). It doesn't really matter (to DIRECTV) if the DIRECTV TiVo sees the light of day or not .. If it does, great, if it doesn't, great.


Didn't they have a similar non-litigation agreement before that, but they were enthusiastic, for once, back then in 2006? In 2007 DirecTV bought ReplayTV, from that time on any litigation risk from TiVo had been already minimized if not entirely removed.

I wouldn't say DirecTV's enthusiasm peaked in 9/08, in 2006 maybe, but not in 9/08. I don't think DirecTV was ever enthusaistic about the new DirecTiVo when they signed the new agreement in 9/08. Again it takes two to tango.


----------



## Doug Brott

The agreement was extended to basically the life of the Patents .. prior to the 2008 agreement, that wasn't the case.

As for their "peaked" enthusiasm, I was speaking specifically about the new DIRECTV TiVo - which was in response to your comment talking about "the product they can deliver." Why bring 2006 into this?

As for "two to tango" .. Wow. DIRECTV wanted to extend the non-litigation agreement .. That happened. DIRECTV won at that point. Again, regardless of whether or not the actual product makes it to the market. Heck, it sounds like you and I are in a Tango now as this conversation seems to be getting quite circular.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> . Heck, it sounds like you and I are in a Tango now as this conversation seems to be getting quite circular.


I am glad you finally see that you and I actually do not disagree. DirecTV does not care, since it takes both DirecTV and TiVo to care (tango), we have such a delay.

You just don't like the word I used when I said who is likely to be xxxxxx for the delay. Not that I am trying to blame anyone since I don't care about the new DirecTiVo either.


----------



## Doug Brott

I'm just telling it the way I see it .. Nothing more.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> If I recall correctly DirecTiVos took off in 2006, presumably after DirecTV took over the marketing, and it just so happened it was around the time TiVo won the case against E*. Since DirecTV will do the marketing this time, one could say the new DirecTiVo will be in good hands, if history is any indication.
> 
> That is of course if DirecTV is as enthusiastic about TiVo now as in 2006, which by consensus the answer seems to be negative this time around.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "DirecTiVos took off in 2006". My first DirecTiVo (HDVR2) was in 2003 and they'd been out a while by then.

2006 is when the DirecTiVo came to an end. The HR20-700 was introduced 2006 (Aug or Sep I think) and the DVR+ line has been the only new DVRs since then.

I'm confused how 2006 relates to the DirecTiVo. :scratchin

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Actually, as much as it pains me to come to Mr. Young's defense, I believe it was January 2006 when DIRECTV dropped the price of the HR10 from insane (over $1k I think) to reasonable (I'm remembering $300.) I presume sales volume increased commensurately. 

My first DVR was an HDVR2 in 2003. It was a pain to find and I actually had to learn the Circuit City part numbers so I could give them to the sales reps. I did not go with the HR10, as I didn't get HDTV until late summer 2006. At that time I stayed with the TiVo until October. My area was one of the first markets to get the HR20 so I went with that. 

I do know some stuff about the time period, which came from DIRECTV people at CES '06 and '08, and from private communications since. A prototype HR20 was shown at CES '06; it was non-functional but it was there. At that time, DIRECTV had already signed contracts for the new satellites and there was a real feeling that they "had" to get things in high gear in 2006. There was no "conspiracy" other than good business practices. They enticed people with the HR10's newly lowered price, then offered HR20 as soon as they could knowing that all the new channels would be MPEG4. They then started aggressively trading out HR10s for HR20s. I see no conspiracy there.


----------



## Ciampion

jal said:


> How noisy is your HR22? My Hr20's are noisy. The hard drives clicking away are louder than the programming volume at times. Too bad TIVO isnt developing the hardware as well. My trusty old HR10-250 is whisper quiet.


For what it's worth I have three HR24's and they are extremely quiet. I have to be within inches of a unit to hear a sound. This is much appreciated for the bedroom TV. My old receivers had clickity clackity hard drives that were very loud. (Of course they got worse over time)


----------



## Ciampion

Stuart Sweet said:


> My first DVR was an HDVR2 in 2003.


I still have my well used HDVR2 in a closet. 
The hard drive died and they sent me an HR24 a few months ago. Do they ever make you send the equipment/cards back?


----------



## Ciampion

Going from the DirecTivo units to non-tivo directv ones was system shock. I still miss the TiVO.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Ciampion said:


> I still have my well used HDVR2 in a closet.
> The hard drive died and they sent me an HR24 a few months ago. Do they ever make you send the equipment/cards back?


I had two HDVR2's and they never asked me for anything back.

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> Actually, as much as it pains me to come to Mr. Young's defense, I believe it was January 2006 when DIRECTV dropped the price of the HR10 from insane (over $1k I think) to reasonable (I'm remembering $300.) I presume sales volume increased commensurately.
> 
> My first DVR was an HDVR2 in 2003. It was a pain to find and I actually had to learn the Circuit City part numbers so I could give them to the sales reps. I did not go with the HR10, as I didn't get HDTV until late summer 2006. At that time I stayed with the TiVo until October. My area was one of the first markets to get the HR20 so I went with that.
> 
> I do know some stuff about the time period, which came from DIRECTV people at CES '06 and '08, and from private communications since. A prototype HR20 was shown at CES '06; it was non-functional but it was there. At that time, DIRECTV had already signed contracts for the new satellites and there was a real feeling that they "had" to get things in high gear in 2006. There was no "conspiracy" other than good business practices. They enticed people with the HR10's newly lowered price, then offered HR20 as soon as they could knowing that all the new channels would be MPEG4. They then started aggressively trading out HR10s for HR20s. I see no conspiracy there.


Of course it is not a conspiracy, it takes more than one to conspire. We known TiVo wants this with as little delay as possible, DirecTiVo has been one of its lifelines. Therefore the two cannot have conspired to cause the delay.


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> Of course it is not a conspiracy, it takes more than one to conspire. We known TiVo wants this with as little delay as possible, DirecTiVo has been one of its lifelines. Therefore the two cannot have conspired to cause the delay.


Actually, Tivo went sue happy and went to sue all the people who violated their patents. DirecTV thought ahead and instead of fighting it in court like DISH did, they saved themselves a bunch of money and hassle and just signed a "no sue" deal with Tivo instead. Part of the deal is that Tivo can make a new DirecTV box. Read that again. They *can* make a new DirecTV box. They aren't required to, nor does DirecTV care one way or another. The new DirecTivo is not going to be a competitive box with the HR2x boxes because of extra cost (possibly) and less features (definitely -- this fact is well known).

I don't think DirecTV is doing anything to stop and/or delay it, but I also don't think DirecTV is doing anything to help Tivo and/or speed up the box release.

We haven't seen a single leaked photo or any hard specs, so aside from Doug who is confident it will be out any day now , everybody else pretty much thinks its still vaporware.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> Of course it is not a conspiracy, it takes more than one to conspire. We known TiVo wants this with as little delay as possible, DirecTiVo has been one of its lifelines. Therefore the two cannot have conspired to cause the delay.


Whether or not the management of TiVo wants this with as little delay as possible is not at issue. What is at issue is the company's ability to deliver. Every source I have, as well as TiVo's track record with other companies, leads me to believe that the development schedule has been 100% in their hands since day 1. The HR21-100 was well-established at that point, and the only difference between that and an THR22 is the larger hard drive. DIRECTV provided the source code and drivers to TiVo on a timely basis, that's what I was told. It's all been up to them to actually make the thing work, and the fact that they haven't delivered a product means they haven't been able to do so yet.

It's not up to DIRECTV's engineering department to do TiVo's homework for them. TiVo has had everything it has needed to develop one product based on established hardware, and in the meantime, DIRECTV has shipped the HR23, HR24 (three models), H24 (three models) and H25.

All TiVo's engineering department had to do was what they promised, which was port their software to the HR21 hardware, and they had full access to all the same information the DIRECTV engineers did.

To me there's simply no escaping the conclusion: DIRECTV isn't holding this device back, TiVo is.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> All TiVo's engineering department had to do was what they promised, which was port their software to the HR21 hardware, and they had full access to all the same information the DIRECTV engineers did.
> 
> To me there's simply no escaping the conclusion: DIRECTV isn't holding this device back, TiVo is.


Unlike with Comcast, where Tivo had to deal with foreign (to them) hardware, DirecTV uses the same hardware that Tivo uses in their own boxes! It's mind boggling that Tivo is seemingly unable to get this figured out.


----------



## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:


> Actually, Tivo went sue happy and went to sue all the people who violated their patents. DirecTV thought ahead and instead of fighting it in court like DISH did, they saved themselves a bunch of money and hassle and just signed a "no sue" deal with Tivo instead. Part of the deal is that Tivo can make a new DirecTV box. Read that again. They can make a new DirecTV box. They aren't required to, nor does DirecTV care one way or another. The new DirecTivo is not going to be a competitive box with the HR2x boxes because of extra cost (possibly) and less features (definitely -- this fact is well known).
> 
> I don't think DirecTV is doing anything to stop and/or delay it, but I also don't think DirecTV is doing anything to help Tivo and/or speed up the box release.
> 
> We haven't seen a single leaked photo or any hard specs, so aside from Doug who is confident it will be out any day now , everybody else pretty much thinks its still vaporware.


The only thing stated in the public was one TiVo analyst blaming the delay on ever changing hardware specs. I assume he got that from TiVo. I don't consider this one more reliable than any other statements made though.

It is still my view DirecTV did not sign and let the agreement known in 9/08 because it was concerned TiVo might sue. DirecTV already bought ReplayTV at that time, there was no chance TiVo, in its capacity would be able to take on DirecTV, i.e. take on ReplayTV times 1000.

It is also undisputed by 9/08 DirecTV was well into replacing the existing DirecTiVos with their own DVRs en messe. Therefore it was not because DirecTV saw some good value in a new TiVo DVR that was worth paying a premium fee for.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> Unlike with Comcast, where Tivo had to deal with foreign (to them) hardware, DirecTV uses the same hardware that Tivo uses in their own boxes! It's mind boggling that Tivo is seemingly unable to get this figured out.


Therefore something else was likely at play. Don't get me wrong, I agree with many of you throughout all this DirecTV has done brilliantly, more so than even Hammer had pointed out to us.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Therefore something else was likely at play.


Tivo has shown enough incompetence using their own hardware that I'm willing to say this is their fault as well. I'm also guessing that it's not a top priority, because it's basically a foregone conclusion at this point that the new DirecTivo will be nothing more than a niche product.


----------



## catocony

Plain and simple, Tivo should have sold out to D* when they had the chance. Most people want to go with a single-vendor solution. How many subscribers does Tivo have, a couple million? And I think that counts the holdouts like me on SD DirecTivos from before 2006. I was checking in the other night to see about maybe going with Cox cable. Even with cable cards only costing $2.00 a month, it's still twice as expensive to go with cable cards and two Tivo Premiers than to rent whatever Cox provides - by quite a bit a month. Most people are not into paying a large premium for a "best of breed" product.

My decision is very cut and dry. I'll wait three more months at max. By then, if the DirecTivos still haven't seen the light of day - reviews in electronics mags, active marketing on the part of DirecTV and/or Tivo, beta testers coming forward and saying that the product is ready for prime time - I'll just go with the D* branded stuff.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> The only thing stated in the public was one TiVo analyst blaming the delay on ever changing hardware specs. (...)


One way to read this is that TiVo was offered access to every model DIRECTV had on the shelf or in development and, after some internal haggling by them, chose to use the HR21-100 because it was most similar to (but not exactly the same as) one of its units.


----------



## newsposter

will this have unlimited SP like my hdtivo? 

will this have a space indicator?

other than those 2 features i dont need anything else and am thrilled this box is coming and finally something i want is coming true in life


----------



## Doug Brott

Most likely you can have as many series passes as you want just like earlier TiVo versions. I don't know for a fact, but I would be surprised if you didn't.

Space? I don't know do the current TiVo have this?


----------



## tonyd79

"Doug Brott" said:


> Most likely you can have as many series passes as you want just like earlier TiVo versions. I don't know for a fact, but I would be surprised if you didn't.
> 
> Space? I don't know do the current TiVo have this?


They added it to premier. Maybe others with software update.


----------



## litzdog911

Doug Brott said:


> ...
> 
> Space? I don't know do the current TiVo have this?


The DirecTivos never had any sort of "free space" indicator.


----------



## Davenlr

The Premier has a percentage used indicator bar.


----------



## newsposter

i'm satisfied then.


----------



## liquidctv

>Going from the DirecTivo units to non-tivo directv ones was system shock. I still miss the TiVO.

For what it's worth, I think DirecTV copied quite a bit from Tivo, including left-back, right-forward, to-do list, and series options. 

There's little practical difference between Tivo and DirecTV recorders. Mostly just look and feel.

That said, Tivo is seamless with the left-right-up-down aspect of control, and has been riding this invention since they launched in '99. They are the only one with suggestions. So again, better than nothing, but it hasn't changed. 

I think a lot of the reason why I've had a better experience with cable and FIOS is because I had a tivo+cablecard, it is a seamless switch-over, with the same interface, if you get me the channels I'm cool. Not like customers who have to deal with FIOS boxes. 

But with the same interface for 12 years, believe me, some of us have been bored for a while.


----------



## jacmyoung

TiVo's DVR invention has nothing to do with look and feel. Having said that TiVo's DVR invention is a very efficient way to perform DVR functions. There are other ways to efficiently do the playback, fast forward, reverse and pause, such as how ReplayTV does it. I suspect DirecTV does it the same way TiVo does them, i.e. look for the I frames in the MPEG streams. DirecTV buying ReplayTV was purely a defensive measure.

ReplayTV being the earlier DVR inventor actually does not require that any streams be MPEG streams or being converted to an MPEG stream before the DVR functions can be performed.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> ReplayTV being the earlier DVR inventor actually does not require that any streams be MPEG streams or being converted to an MPEG stream before the DVR functions can be performed.


What are you talking about? This is ridiculous. Of course ReplayTV used MPEG video.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> What are you talking about? This is ridiculous. Of course ReplayTV used MPEG video.


I had read ReplayTV's DVR patent. It did not require that an MPEG stream was present. The fact it endded up working with an MPEG stream for the most part, is irrelevant.


----------



## inkahauts

Jeremy W said:


> Tivo has shown enough incompetence using their own hardware that I'm willing to say this is their fault as well. I'm also guessing that it's not a top priority, because it's basically a foregone conclusion at this point that the new DirecTivo will be nothing more than a niche product.


But aren't all Tivos a Niche product at this point? 

They should have gone full bore with this system when they first signed that agreement. They could have had many many more customers back then before DIrectv had WH and such.. Now.. To little to late, even for the majority of the die hard Tivo fans...


----------



## inkahauts

liquidctv said:


> >Going from the DirecTivo units to non-tivo directv ones was system shock. I still miss the TiVO.
> 
> For what it's worth, I think DirecTV copied quite a bit from Tivo, including left-back, right-forward, to-do list, and series options.
> 
> There's little practical difference between Tivo and DirecTV recorders. Mostly just look and feel.
> 
> That said, Tivo is seamless with the left-right-up-down aspect of control, and has been riding this invention since they launched in '99. They are the only one with suggestions. So again, better than nothing, but it hasn't changed.
> 
> I think a lot of the reason why I've had a better experience with cable and FIOS is because I had a tivo+cablecard, it is a seamless switch-over, with the same interface, if you get me the channels I'm cool. Not like customers who have to deal with FIOS boxes.
> 
> But with the same interface for 12 years, believe me, some of us have been bored for a while.


Actually, for the most part, Directvs units function more like a replaytv than a tivo, with one touch record, 2 touch series links, allowing for faster navigation and access to different aspects of controlling a dvr... Tivo is far more cumbersome in that regard, which is also why I don't get why people like tivos over, well, anything else...


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> But aren't all Tivos a Niche product at this point?


I don't think there was any point in Tivo's lifetime where it hasn't been a niche product. Even when they were DirecTV's only DVR, DVRs themselves were still niche products.


----------



## Davenlr

inkahauts said:


> Actually, for the most part, Directvs units function more like a replaytv than a tivo, with one touch record, 2 touch series links, allowing for faster navigation and access to different aspects of controlling a dvr... Tivo is far more cumbersome in that regard, which is also why I don't get why people like tivos over, well, anything else...


I agree there, the Replay was my favorite DVR, followed by SageTV, then HR, then Tivo. The Tivo is just plain simple for non-tech family members though. My parents were DVRing their butts off with their Tivo, but since they got HRs, they have me come over to program the series links, and rarely keep anything on the hard drive. I have no idea why they find it difficult to use...they wont even use the guide. They channel up and down.


----------



## tonyd79

Jeremy W said:


> I don't think there was any point in Tivo's lifetime where it hasn't been a niche product. Even when they were DirecTV's only DVR, DVRs themselves were still niche products.


Yeah, because when Tivo reigned supreme in the DVR space, DVRs were a niche market. But now they are a niche in a larger niche.


----------



## jacmyoung

tonyd79 said:


> ...when Tivo reigned supreme in the DVR space...


I don't recall TiVo ever did so, they never owned a very large percentage of the DVR market at any given time but I wasn't closely following the market at that time.

Again the look and feel of the DVR functions were never the DVR invention. TiVo did coin the word "TiVo" into a verb synonymous to performing DVR functions, which got a lot of people confused about TiVo's place in the DVR technologies, thinking anything that does those DVR functions must be TiVo's invention. If the look and feel were the DVR invention, they would have been made obvious and invalidated by the VCR functions.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Actually, for the most part, Directvs units function more like a replaytv than a tivo, with one touch record, 2 touch series links, allowing for faster navigation and access to different aspects of controlling a dvr... Tivo is far more cumbersome in that regard, which is also why I don't get why people like tivos over, well, anything else...


I can't imagine even getting a TiVo, if we ever see one. But D* seems to always suck me in by offering new stuff at no cost, so I might end up with one. I didn't want a 24 until I knew they were stable and they ended up giving me two of them (one was a replacement for an owned 20-700) without cost. So far, I've had four of them and one of mine is going bad, so I'll end up with having five of them sent to me with two actually working correctly. Two for five makes for a great batting average, but not for DVRs.

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> I don't recall TiVo ever did so, they never owned a very large percentage of the DVR market at any given time but I wasn't closely following the market at that time.


Not sure if thats true. According to numbers I saw, when DTV was using Tivo, Tivo had like 60% to 70% of the market. Could be wrong on those numbers, just going off what I saw on the net.


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> Not sure if thats true. According to numbers I saw, when DTV was using Tivo, Tivo had like 60% to 70% of the market. Could be wrong on those numbers, just going off what I saw on the net.


Those numbers wouldn't surprise me. Back then, integrated cable DVRs were still in their infancy. DirecTV had a large head start, since their integrated DVR didn't need to do any analog to digital conversion.


----------



## Shades228

If a company wants to put a product on the market fast they will. If they were being stonewalled it would have come out by now. Someone would have made a reference to it on a call or something. TiVo obviously has no problem making public their information. They could easily bring it up on a call that delays in approval are stopping them from launching the product to help revenue streams. 

The bottom line is that TiVo has chosen where the priority of this device is in their company strategy right now. If I were TiVo I wouldn't focus as much on this as I would my stand alones because that's where the real money is. The amount of subs at DIRECTV that must have a TiVo now are extremely small compared to 5 years ago.


----------



## harsh

Shades228 said:


> The amount of subs at DIRECTV that must have a TiVo now are extremely small compared to 5 years ago.


In the most recent conference call, TiVo declined to talk about the composition of their customer base. The SEC filings suggest that "extremely small" is an exaggeration.

All tolled, the MSO (DIRECTV, Comcast, Virgin) subscribers on January 31, 2011 (the end of TiVo's fiscal year 2011) came to 783,000 or about one third of what the DIRECTV count was five years ago (2,376,000). I suspect that over half of these were DIRECTV subscribers so the fraction is probably somewhere between 15-20%

At its peak (2007 fiscal year-end), the MSO count was 2,836,000 or about 3.6 times what it is now. It is safe to assume that prior to 2008 all of those were DIRECTV customers.

The number of TiVo-owned subscribers is a little less than it was five years ago (1,266,000 versus 1,269,000 then) and TiVo is losing high single digit percentages per year.


----------



## bonscott87

SledgeHammer said:


> Not sure if thats true. According to numbers I saw, when DTV was using Tivo, Tivo had like 60% to 70% of the market. Could be wrong on those numbers, just going off what I saw on the net.


Actually it's more then that. Back then there was just Replay TV and Tivo. Really wasn't anything else. Oh yea, Ultimate TV was on DirecTV as well but very small. There really were no cable DVRs.

Tivo had *at least* 70% of the DVR market back then, probably 80%+.

Today Tivo doesn't even have 10% of the market. Actually more like 5%. Less then 2 million of 40+ million DVR households. And it keeps shrinking day by day. That's why I continue to laugh at Tivo when they think they still own the market. They haven't for well over half a decade.


----------



## jacmyoung

Dishplayer came out before Ultimate TV as I recall, I still have one in the closet.

Had Dish not abandoned the Dishplayer and continued to work with Microsoft, TiVo probably would not have sued, DirecTV would have still worked with TiVo, history could have been written very differently.


----------



## SledgeHammer

bonscott87 said:


> Actually it's more then that. Back then there was just Replay TV and Tivo. Really wasn't anything else. Oh yea, Ultimate TV was on DirecTV as well but very small. There really were no cable DVRs.
> 
> Tivo had *at least* 70% of the DVR market back then, probably 80%+.
> 
> Today Tivo doesn't even have 10% of the market. Actually more like 5%. Less then 2 million of 40+ million DVR households. And it keeps shrinking day by day. That's why I continue to laugh at Tivo when they think they still own the market. They haven't for well over half a decade.


I was seeing numbers for Tivo marketshare "today" is like 1% or less. Everybody has home grown DVRs now.


----------



## tonyd79

"jacmyoung" said:


> Dishplayer came out before Ultimate TV as I recall, I still have one in the closet.
> 
> Had Dish not abandoned the Dishplayer and continued to work with Microsoft, TiVo probably would not have sued, DirecTV would have still worked with TiVo, history could have been written very differently.


Why do you think directv would have stayed with TiVo? I see no connection. Directv divorced TiVo because the ownership wanted their own box. They felt they could make more money and contol the environment better. They were correct.


----------



## Shades228

I think I'm going to join the probably never club now.


----------



## jacmyoung

tonyd79 said:


> Why do you think directv would have stayed with TiVo?


Where did I say that DirecTV would have "stayed" with TiVo? I simply said DirecTV would have still worked with TiVo back then, because according to the comments made here, at the time DirecTV did not have its own DVRs, they needed TiVo to fill the gap.

Do you think DirecTV has decided not to stay with TiVo now? Judging from your question, it seems your answer is a yes.


----------



## Rich

Shades228 said:


> I think I'm going to join the probably never club now.


Oh goody, now they'll introduce it tomorrow.....:lol:

Rich


----------



## dhomoney

Frankly, I think the Directv DVRs suck in comparison to my old standalone tivo and my old HD DirecTivo. At least on those I could have more than 50 items. I mean seriously, how pathetic is this limitation in 2011 when I had unlimited on my Tivo back in 2000? It is sad and all other features pale in comparison to an artificial limit on the season pass. Sad.


----------



## jal

It would be nice to hear additional info from someone who actually beta tested the unit or someone with some inside knowledge. Hard to believe more hasn't leaked out.


----------



## SledgeHammer

jal said:


> It would be nice to hear additional info from someone who actually beta tested the unit or someone with some inside knowledge. Hard to believe more hasn't leaked out.


More? NOTHING has leaked out except what DTV has told us. Thats why a lot of people don't believe it even exists.


----------



## jal

Yeah....Every once in a while I think about switching providers to get the Series 4 Tivo. Then, I wait because the new Directivo will be released just after I switch.


----------



## SledgeHammer

jal said:


> Yeah....Every once in a while I think about switching providers to get the Series 4 Tivo. Then, I wait because the new Directivo will be released just after I switch.


You have a year or two before the new DirecTivo will be out. Doug is still sticking to June / July last I heard. In all honestly, I think they'll just pull the plug on the project before it gets released. They'll certainly pull the plug shortly there after when the thing fizzles out.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SledgeHammer said:


> You have a year or two before the new DirecTivo will be out. Doug is still sticking to June / July last I heard. In all honestly, I think they'll just pull the plug on the project before it gets released. They'll certainly pull the plug shortly there after when the thing fizzles out.


I suspect Doug is on top of this....it'll happen, and it'll happen this year still.

Beyond that...all bets are off. 

The most important point of all - the majority of DirecTV HD DVR customers won't even care after all this time.


----------



## jal

I'm still a hold out for the Directivo! Still enjoy my HR10-250.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

dhomoney said:


> Frankly, I think the Directv DVRs suck in comparison to my old standalone tivo and my old HD DirecTivo. At least on those I could have more than 50 items. I mean seriously, how pathetic is this limitation in 2011 when I had unlimited on my Tivo back in 2000? It is sad and *all other features pale in comparison to an artificial limit on the season pass.* Sad.


I would rather have the Whole Home setup anyday than have the ability to have more than 50 Series Links. I think anyone that has the ability to watch from any HD receiver in the house would agree.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Maybe two 30 minute buffers and unlimited Season Pass


----------



## tonyd79

"JACKIEGAGA" said:


> Maybe two 30 minute buffers and unlimited Season Pass


You don't like two 90 minute buffers?


----------



## Scott Kocourek

tonyd79 said:


> You don't like two 90 minute buffers?


Sarcasm


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect Doug is on top of this....it'll happen, and it'll happen this year still.


There is no reason to believe just because Doug said it that it's going to happen that way. Not saying he's lying or anything, but the mods here have changed their tune just as much as DirecTV and Tivo have. The fact is that until this thing is actually in the hands of customers, it's all up in the air.

And I don't think it's crazy to entertain the notion of the plug being pulled on this. Look what happened with Comcast. When this was first announced, I said we'd never see it. I am still sticking by that prediction.


----------



## catocony

I decided to upgrade this week and scrapped my DSR708 DirecTivo and a crappy R-15 for two HR-24s. The HR-24s are fine, a definite improvement over the R-15, which was the first gen. I honestly do think, after four days of use on the new gear but several years on the R-15 - there isn't that much of a look and feel difference - that the 8 year old DirecTivo interface is better than the current D* interface. That is my personal opinion. Other than the 90-minute buffers, there isn't anything the HR-24s do better in an apples to apples comparison on the features available in an 8 year old DirecTivo. D* of course has MRV and internet connectivity and is HD, and of course that blows the old units away. But, on the basics of operation - playlists, setting up recordings, searching for content, setting up season passes, menus, just general look and feel - the old DirecTivo is faster and easier. I've felt that way for 5 years, since I got an R-15, and I still feel that with the HR-24s.

Now, as far as the new HD DirecTivo, the reason I went ahead and upgraded instead of waiting is simple - I don't believe in the June/July release date. When have you ever seen a product just announced one day and for sale the next? They may announce something in June, but you need lead time to get the sales pipeline going. With no information on definite features, cost or anything else, it really does just smell like vaporware - something to keep the ~750,000 legacy DirecTivo customers going. Let's face it, if it were really coming out in June, they would be selling them now, marketing, taking advance orders, all of that.


----------



## Rich

dhomoney said:


> Frankly, I think the Directv DVRs suck in comparison to my old standalone tivo and my old HD DirecTivo. At least on those I could have more than 50 items. I mean seriously, how pathetic is this limitation in 2011 when I had unlimited on my Tivo back in 2000? It is sad and all other features pale in comparison to an artificial limit on the season pass. Sad.


"Only" 50? Geez, I've got 600.

Rich


----------



## Rich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect Doug is on top of this....it'll happen, and it'll happen this year still.
> 
> Beyond that...all bets are off.
> 
> *The most important point of all - the majority of DirecTV HD DVR customers won't even care after all this time.*


I don't care now. I don't even know why I'm reading this thread......:lol:

Rich


----------



## tonyd79

catocony said:


> Other than the 90-minute buffers, there isn't anything the HR-24s do better in an apples to apples comparison on the features available in an 8 year old DirecTivo. D* of course has MRV and internet connectivity and is HD, and of course that blows the old units away. But, on the basics of operation - playlists, setting up recordings, searching for content, setting up season passes, menus, just general look and feel - the old DirecTivo is faster and easier. I've felt that way for 5 years, since I got an R-15, and I still feel that with the HR-24s.


Really? Much easier to setup a recording or a season pass with the HR2x. Hit record once for once, twice for a season pass. No prompt screens. Want to delete a recording from the to do list or from your guide? Just hit the stop button. Gone. I don't remember, do Tivos show the recording status in the guide? My mind is fuzzy.

As for look and feel, Tivo is cartoonish. And out of date. Give one to someone today who never used a DVR but has worked with today's computers and they are lost (happened to a very savvy computer guy I gave my Series 3 to; he was so confused for about a month).

There are personal tastes and comfort zone. I will give you that although the latter changes in time. Mine did. I had both Tivo and HR20 in the house at the same time. I used my Tivo less and less as time went on and found the frustrations moving from the HR20 to the Tivo when I wanted to do something quickly.

But personal tastes still remain. But to claim that the HR2x loses on all points to the Tivo on item for item is just not true.


----------



## tonyd79

dhomoney said:


> Frankly, I think the Directv DVRs suck in comparison to my old standalone tivo and my old HD DirecTivo. At least on those I could have more than 50 items. I mean seriously, how pathetic is this limitation in 2011 when I had unlimited on my Tivo back in 2000? It is sad and all other features pale in comparison to an artificial limit on the season pass. Sad.


Your opinion. But given that I have three DVRs all networked together, I have 150 season passes available. And six tuners. I hit the two tuner limit far more than I hit the 50 pass limit. I currently have about 42 among all three DVRs. They are somewhat balanced by content and with an effort to keep at least one tuner free as often as possible for LIVE TV viewing (sports).


----------



## mborner

Which DVR was it that was able to record an episode even though its time slot changed, was delayed by sports, or even had a non scheduled day change? It required no user input, other than to hit record on what you wanted to record and the DVR took care of the rest. No matter where your episode ended up, the DVR would track it, and record it. Wasn't that Tivo?


----------



## Jeremy W

mborner said:


> Which DVR was it that was able to record an episode even though its time slot changed, was delayed by sports, or even had a non scheduled day change? It required no user input, other than to hit record on what you wanted to record and the DVR took care of the rest. No matter where your episode ended up, the DVR would track it, and record it. Wasn't that Tivo?


Ummm, yeah Tivo could do that. But so can DirecTV's current DVRs.


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> I don't even know why I'm reading this thread......:lol:


To kill time at work? Thats why I'm still reading it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rich584 said:


> I don't care now. I don't even know why I'm reading this thread......:lol:
> 
> Rich





SledgeHammer said:


> Too kill time at work? Thats why I'm still reading it.


!rolling


----------



## Shades228

If my information is true DIRECTV has no reason to budge on the main reason for delays and TiVo has too many reasons currently not to budge at this point.


----------



## jal

And the main reason would be?????


----------



## jacmyoung

"Shades228" said:


> If my information is true DIRECTV has no reason to budge on the main reason for delays and TiVo has too many reasons currently not to budge at this point.


Are you saying they both refuse not to delay it?


----------



## bonscott87

mborner said:


> Which DVR was it that was able to record an episode even though its time slot changed, was delayed by sports, or even had a non scheduled day change? It required no user input, other than to hit record on what you wanted to record and the DVR took care of the rest. No matter where your episode ended up, the DVR would track it, and record it. Wasn't that Tivo?


Ummm, that's pretty much every DVR in existence including Tivo and DirecTV DVRs. Heck on my Windows Media Center I can setup a season pass to only record in that timeslot *or* record it at anytime. So you can actually choose which you want to do.

Other then a live sports overrun of course. There isn't anything that can take that into account, including Tivo.


----------



## spartanstew

Don't really have anything to add, but noticed I hadn't posted in this thread yet this quarter, so thought I'd do some padding.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Scott Kocourek said:


> Sarcasm


Thanks Scott


----------



## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> Are you saying they both refuse not to delay it?


I'm saying that they have a disagreement about something and that neither side at this point is flinching so while it's being tested at this point it's not something anyone would want due to said disagreement.

If Doug is correct and I'm correct then if they did put the current issue to the public I doubt even die hard TiVo people would want it. I don't think either company would want that.


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> To kill time at work? Thats why I'm still reading it.


I dunno, some of it's kinda funny. Amazes me how people get caught up in paradigms that they just can't let go of. 

Rich


----------



## hdtvfan0001

spartanstew said:


> Don't really have anything to add, but noticed I hadn't posted in this thread yet this quarter, so thought I'd do some padding.


:lol::lol::lol:

I'm with Rich584...this is an entertaining thread for sure...kills off any boring moments that one might have.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Shades228" said:


> I'm saying that they have a disagreement about something and that neither side at this point is flinching so while it's being tested at this point it's not something anyone would want due to said disagreement.
> 
> If Doug is correct and I'm correct then if they did put the current issue to the public I doubt even die hard TiVo people would want it. I don't think either company would want that.


If Doug is correct it will roll out in June or July, but if you are correct there is some disagreement that is preventing the rollout and there is no chance an agreement may be reached.

Sounded to me you and Doug cannot both be correct.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Sounded to me you and Doug cannot both be correct.


I'm pretty sure that's what he was saying, by saying that if they're both correct the released product would be such garbage that neither company would want to be associated with it.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> I'm pretty sure that's what he was saying, by saying that if they're both correct the released product would be such garbage that neither company would want to be associated with it.


So what was he saying? No rollout in June or July?


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> So what was he saying? No rollout in June or July?


He made his thoughts pretty clear a little while back:


Shades228 said:


> I think I'm going to join the probably never club now.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> He made his thoughts pretty clear a little while back:


But he did not tell us what had made him change his position until now. I wonder how reliable his source is.


----------



## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> But he did not tell us what had made him change his position until now. I wonder how reliable his source is.


Good enough I would post something about it. Anything is possible and I'll never say it's dead unless an official announcement came out. It just means that if it does happen it shows how desperate TiVo would be getting and I think they would rather be bought out than make that decision.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> But he did not tell us what had made him change his position until now. I wonder how reliable his source is.


Seeing as there has been absolutely zero visible movement since the day this project was announced, it would seem that his source is pretty reliable.


----------



## Doug Brott

I still have a high confidence in my current timeline.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I still have a high confidence in my current timeline.


That would lead some of us to have confidence that your confidence is well founded.


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:


> Seeing as there has been absolutely zero visible movement since the day this project was announced, it would seem that his source is pretty reliable.


I thought it is in beta testing, I consider beta testing a "visible movement".


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> I thought it is in beta testing, I consider beta testing a "visible movement".


Show me that it's in beta testing, and I'll call that visible movement.


----------



## mborner

Jeremy W said:


> Ummm, yeah Tivo could do that. But so can DirecTV's current DVRs.





bonscott87 said:


> Ummm, that's pretty much every DVR in existence including Tivo and DirecTV DVRs. Heck on my Windows Media Center I can setup a season pass to only record in that timeslot *or* record it at anytime. So you can actually choose which you want to do.
> 
> Other then a live sports overrun of course. There isn't anything that can take that into account, including Tivo.


I must be missing something. I have never been able to do that on my HR-21. Sure, I could hit the record button twice in the guide to record every episode but if the episode shifted in time because of sports delays, I'd miss the last 15 minutes or 1/2 hour of my recording. IOW, even though you've told your DVR to record "Survivor" at 8:00, all it's really doing is starting the recording at 8:00 on the correct channel, no matter what is playing on that channel at 8:00. A perfect example of this is Sunday night prime time delayed by sports. The user has to anticipate the delay and compensate for it by manually extending the recording time. Directv is certainly* not *a set it-and-forget-it system. I remember Tivo, or some other DVR, recorded shows, *not* time slots or channels. It didn't matter what channel or time Survivor was on, it recorded *Survivor*, not channel 4 at 8:00. I thought that was Tivo.


----------



## JBernardK

mborner said:


> I must be missing something. I have never been able to do that on my HR-21. Sure, I could hit the record button twice in the guide to record every episode but if the episode shifted in time because of sports delays, I'd miss the last 15 minutes or 1/2 hour of my recording. IOW, even though you've told your DVR to record "Survivor" at 8:00, all it's really doing is starting the recording at 8:00 on the correct channel, no matter what is playing on that channel at 8:00. A perfect example of this is Sunday night prime time delayed by sports. The user has to anticipate the delay and compensate for it by manually extending the recording time. Directv is certainly* not *a set it-and-forget-it system. I remember Tivo, or some other DVR, recorded shows, *not* time slots or channels. It didn't matter what channel or time Survivor was on, it recorded *Survivor*, not channel 4 at 8:00. I thought that was Tivo.


No DVR can anticipate a show that is delayed at the last minute, like Sunday night on CBS during football season. The DVR (TiVo or HR) can only record what the guide says is on. There is no magic here.


----------



## Doug Brott

mborner said:


> I remember Tivo, or some other DVR, recorded shows, *not* time slots or channels. It didn't matter what channel or time Survivor was on, it recorded *Survivor*, not channel 4 at 8:00. I thought that was Tivo.


TiVo has _Wishlists_ and the HR2x has _Autorecord_. They work differently but do similar things and both can record from multiple channels @ unspecified time slots. Each has it's own pluses and minuses so one may appeal more to some people while the other one may appeal to others.

As for you assertion that there is a DVR that will automatically figure out when a Live TV program has gone over .. Good luck with that. I don't believe there is a DVR on the planet that can do that .. The reason is because the guide data will show the "supposed to" time and if the DVR doesn't do what it is supposed to do, then it would be doing the wrong thing. The issue with Live TV is that the providers who have overruns don't update the programming information in the guide. So all DVRs end up failing on Live TV programming that goes over. I will say that the HR2x actually look at guide data in real time, so if someone updated the guide data, it could literally "fix" itself even after a program started. Just don't expect it because the humans that would provide the correct guide information is where the weak link in the process is.

You may really like TiVo and that's great, but there's no reason to think that TiVo has a Live TV overrun fix feature .. That's simply not there.


----------



## bonscott87

mborner said:


> I must be missing something. I have never been able to do that on my HR-21. Sure, I could hit the record button twice in the guide to record every episode but if the episode shifted in time because of sports delays, I'd miss the last 15 minutes or 1/2 hour of my recording. IOW, even though you've told your DVR to record "Survivor" at 8:00, all it's really doing is starting the recording at 8:00 on the correct channel, no matter what is playing on that channel at 8:00. A perfect example of this is Sunday night prime time delayed by sports. The user has to anticipate the delay and compensate for it by manually extending the recording time. Directv is certainly* not *a set it-and-forget-it system. I remember Tivo, or some other DVR, recorded shows, *not* time slots or channels. It didn't matter what channel or time Survivor was on, it recorded *Survivor*, not channel 4 at 8:00. I thought that was Tivo.


Ummmm, of course Tivo doesn't do that either. There isn't ANYTHING on the planet that can adjust for a last minute sports overrun...even Tivo.

And yes, the HR21 or any HR records out of timeslot just fine. You have a series link to Big Bang Theory that was Monday at 9:30? This season it moved to Thursday at 8pm. You don't have to do a thing, it'll know it's been moved and record just fine. An extra episode on Sunday like the recent Body of Proof? No problem, the HR2x will record it just fine. Just like a Tivo.

And both the Tivo and HR2x (and many other DVRs) can record a show no matter what channel. On the HR you can easily setup an autorecord seach for "Married with Children" that will record at any time on any channel. You can do the same on Tivo and it's called a "wishlist". I can also do that on my Windows Media Center also as an autorecord search. It's nothing unique to Tivo.

You may like Tivo more due to UI or other reasons and that's fine. But these series recording things you're talking about are certainly available on the HR2x as they are on just about every other DVR out there. Other then live sports overrun of course with NOTHING, including Tivo can handle at this time. Someday if there is ever a "live" guide data that is updated every minute of every day then yes, a DVR can take into account a sudden live sports overrun.

As for CBS on Sunday during football season...yes, the user needs to know that football may run over. It's been the same thing since the 80s and VCRs. If CBS (or Fox) has a late NFL game you better add at least an hour padding to any CBS show you record on Sunday night. Nothing has changed in the age of the DVR, nothing. You need to know your shows and if they might be effected by an overrun of live sports you need to compensate for that. Heck, I also make sure anything following a live show like American Idol adds at least 10-15 minute padding just in case, it has happened. Nothing it 100% "set and forget"...even Tivo.


----------



## mborner

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo has _Wishlists_ and the HR2x has _Autorecord_. They work differently but do similar things and both can record from multiple channels @ unspecified time slots. Each has it's own pluses and minuses so one may appeal more to some people while the other one may appeal to others.
> 
> As for you assertion that there is a DVR that will automatically figure out when a Live TV program has gone over .. Good luck with that. I don't believe there is a DVR on the planet that can do that .. The reason is because the guide data will show the "supposed to" time and if the DVR doesn't do what it is supposed to do, then it would be doing the wrong thing. The issue with Live TV is that the providers who have overruns don't update the programming information in the guide. So all DVRs end up failing on Live TV programming that goes over. I will say that the HR2x actually look at guide data in real time, so if someone updated the guide data, it could literally "fix" itself even after a program started. Just don't expect it because the humans that would provide the correct guide information is where the weak link in the process is.
> 
> You may really like TiVo and that's great, but there's no reason to think that TiVo has a Live TV overrun fix feature .. That's simply not there.


Gotcha. I didn't realize "live" TV (sports) made a difference. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## Jeremy W

bonscott87 said:


> And yes, the HR21 or any HR records out of timeslot just fine.


I had that experience just this week. My local NBC affiliate pre-empted Chuck, and put it on at 1:35am. My HR23 didn't even flinch, it picked up the move without issue.


----------



## Sixto

Was just cleaning out the attic a little, just carried two HR10-250's out to the trash. Each was well over $1000 with the upgraded drives. They were great units in their day.

Also a Hughes HIRD-D4 Platinum, and an RCA DVR40, out they go ...


----------



## fikuserectus

I don't think this product will ever be available. It is years late. Many of the advantages Tivo had, have vanished. 

Honestly why should it take so long to get a product like this to market? Tivo keeps loosing subscribers and has major issues. Does this product even matter?


----------



## Shades228

Jeremy W said:


> Show me that it's in beta testing, and I'll call that visible movement.


It is in beta testing there are people who have them in the field for testing at this point.


----------



## Jeremy W

Shades228 said:


> It is in beta testing there are people who have them in the field for testing at this point.


I believe it, but as far as I'm aware, neither DirecTV nor Tivo have officially said anything about it being in beta. So I don't consider it *visible* movement, although it is still movement.


----------



## Rich

Sixto said:


> Was just cleaning out the attic a little, just carried two HR10-250's out to the trash. Each was well over $1000 with the upgraded drives. They were great units in their day.
> 
> Also a Hughes HIRD-D4 Platinum, and an RCA DVR40, out they go ...


Can't even sell them on eBay. I tried, but I guess I waited too long. Shame.

Rich


----------



## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> I believe it, but as far as I'm aware, neither DirecTV nor Tivo have officially said anything about it being in beta. So I don't consider it visible movement, although it is still movement.


It must be "invisible movement" then. It is one or the other. While no official announcement has been made, no one seems to dispute that beta testing is happening. Personally I do not insist they have to make an official statement of the beta testing to prove to us there is visible movement.

Now if neither company sees the device under beta test will be a viable device because it lacks functions, whose fault is it that the device lacks those functions?


----------



## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> It must be "invisible movement" then. It is one or the other. While no official announcement has been made, no one seems to dispute that beta testing is happening. Personally I do not insist they have to make an official statement of the beta testing to prove to us there is visible movement.
> 
> Now if neither company sees the device under beta test will be a viable device because it lacks functions, *whose fault is it that the device lacks those functions?*


That of course would depend on what company you like more.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Shades228" said:


> That of course would depend on what company you like more.


Since I am a fairly satisfied DirecTV sub, I'd say I like DirecTV more, but if this device is not viable because MRV or some other critical features are not allowed, I would fault DirecTV for it.

Was that the answer you had expected?


----------



## Doug Brott

The only "disallowed" features would be those that cause DIRECTV to lose revenue such as Netflix. Last I checked MRV was a revenue generator for DIRECTV.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> The only "disallowed" features would be those that cause DIRECTV to lose revenue such as Netflix. Last I checked MRV was a revenue generator for DIRECTV.


Don't get me wrong, I understand why DirecTV wants to withhold some features. But if by withholding such features they render this device not viable, you can't blame TiVo for not wanting it. It is perfectly reasonable for TiVo to blame DirecTV for the bad result, or no result so far.

On the other hand, whatever DirecTV is doing or not doing, probably does not violate the agreement, in that sense TiVo only has itself to blame for signing an agreement without enough substances in it.

Which leads me back to what I said from the very beginning, why did they do it 2.5 years ago? Especially when they did it one day before the hearing in the TiVo v. E* case when TiVo had to present the court with the support for the increased royalty rate?

DirecTV was probably more than happy to help TiVo to inflict more damage on E*, the DirecTV's direct competitor, while TiVo was probably eager to solicit help from anyone who could support them to argue for a higher royalty rate in court. In the process TiVo probably didn't care about the substance of the agreement, as long as it said "a substantially higher monthly fee."

In that sense TiVo cannot now complain. I am in no way of saying anyone must agree with my above theory. It is just a theory, certainly not a baseless or illogical theory.


----------



## inkahauts

I will say there is no chance Tivo ever thought they where going to be allowed to add Netflix and other streaming services to the directvios.. Maybe to go, but they also know that will depend on contracts with providers....


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Which leads me back to what I said from the very beginning, why did they do it 2.5 years ago? Especially when they did it one day before the hearing in the TiVo v. E* case when TiVo had to present the court with the support for the increased royalty rate?


I just looked outside .. there are no black helicopters.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Don't get me wrong, I understand why DirecTV wants to withhold some features. But if by withholding such features they render this device not viable, you can't blame TiVo for not wanting it. It is perfectly reasonable for TiVo to blame DirecTV for the bad result, or no result so far.


Except DIRECTV has been doing the same thing everyone else has been doing .. waiting for TiVo to finish. It's much closer now than ever before. Like I said earlier .. Blame DIRECTV all you want .. but you're not looking at the bigger picture. The evidence is overwhelming .. TiVo and delay are synonymous.


----------



## Davenlr

Well, its being touted on Tivo's website with a link the the "Soon" page on DirecTv's site, so someone is convinced its coming


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Except DIRECTV has been doing the same thing everyone else has been doing .. waiting for TiVo to finish. It's much closer now than ever before.


Time after time I have found out how you and I agree, you just don't realize it

Except I won't use the term "waiting for" rather "want" in the above statement. This is especially true once TiVo began to sue everyone it could possibly sue.

But if you think "waiting for" is more appropriate, it is necessary to put a timeline on it. Endless waiting is no good. Personally I would consider the timing of the TiVo v. E* en banc ruling a milestone for such a waiting game. But don't blame me for making such connection, blame TiVo, it was TiVo not too long ago decided to remove its poison pill, with the timing of it tied to the en banc ruling.

You see I can blame TiVo just as well as you


----------



## ejjames

Is there any chance at all that the new Tivo will support DIRECTV2PC? (I'm almost sure the answer will be "no".)

If not, does tivo offer a similar feature it might support? I'm not looking to save or transfer recordings to a PC. Just the ability to stream.


----------



## Jeremy W

ejjames said:


> Is there any chance at all that the new Tivo will support DIRECTV2PC? (I'm almost sure the answer will be "no".)


Actually, supporting DirecTV2PC isn't all that different from supporting MRV, which is something we know it will support. So it's not a very far-fetched idea.


ejjames said:


> If not, does tivo offer a similar feature it might support?


Tivo has nothing like DirecTV2PC.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> But if you think "waiting for" is more appropriate, it is necessary to put a timeline on it. Endless waiting is no good. Personally I would consider the timing of the TiVo v. E* en banc ruling a milestone for such a waiting game. But don't blame me for making such connection, blame TiVo, it was TiVo not too long ago decided to remove its poison pill, with the timing of it tied to the en banc ruling.


Don't for a minute thing that I agree with this statement. You've said it a million times and I'm sure if it's touted enough people will start believing it just because they've seen it so many times.

Personally, I think this assertion is absurd .. To even suggest that DIRECTV or TiVo even KNEW about this whole TiVo/Echostar en banc thing at the original announcement is mind boggling. I'm positive that there is zero connection here other than coincidence. Besides, neither event has even happened yet. With as many twists and turns that the TiVo/Echostar case has already had, what makes you even think it's going to end when it "ends" .. We're already well into extra innings as the case should have been completed already.

I don't get it .. I don't agree with the statements at all. I fully subscribe to the theory that it simply took TiVo this long .. Just like it took them "that" long with the other providers. The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> Actually, supporting DirecTV2PC isn't all that different from supporting MRV, which is something we know it will support. So it's not a very far-fetched idea.


Yup .. Think of it as a working client to test the server as it was being developed.


----------



## jacmyoung

Am I missing something? I thought the new DirecTiVo will NOT have MRV.


----------



## Doug Brott

supporting and "not very far-fetched" aren't exactly the same thing .. I'm not suggesting anything different than my earlier list.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> To even suggest that DIRECTV or TiVo even KNEW about this whole TiVo/Echostar en banc thing at the original announcement is mind boggling.


WOW, where did I ever suggest that?

I said the timing of the original announcement suggested DirecTV was more than happy to help TiVo to inflict pain on E*, while making sure itself would not have to ultimately pay such significantly high fees. No where in this statement can one somehow fit the term "en banc ruling" in there.

The fact now we learned TiVo views this current new DVR under testing a non viable device, mainly due to the lack of the key features not of TiVo's doing, only further supports my theory DirecTV had no great desire to help TiVo on this device. DirecTV was also in no fear of TiVo suing them since they already bought ReplayTV then, therefore by method of elimination, I drew the above theory.

The timing of TiVo's decision to remove the poison pill, which is tied to the en banc outcome, of course has nothing to do with the original announcement, but it points to the end game, you know when you said waiting for TiVo to finish?

Removal of the poison pill allows a buyout, like when you tried to envision waiting for it to finish. I did not say TiVo will be finished, you said it, I am only pointing out a possible timeline to your projection to help you see that possible finish line.

Things do develop over time, companies do adjust accordingly.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> WOW, where did I ever suggest that?
> 
> I said the timing of the original announcement suggested DirecTV was more than happy to help TiVo to inflict pain on E*, while making sure itself would not have to ultimately pay such significantly high fees. No where in this statement can one somehow fit the term "en banc ruling" in there.


Bringing TiVo/Echostar case into this discussion is suggestion enough .. it doesn't even make sense in this context .. not even remotely, yet somehow you think there is a relation and timing that make it interesting. I'm on the side of the fence that thinks this suggestion (which it is simply by virtue of you bringing it into this conversation) is absurd.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Bringing TiVo/Echostar case into this discussion is suggestion enough .. it doesn't even make sense in this context .. not even remotely, yet somehow you think there is a relation and timing that make it interesting. I'm on the side of the fence that thinks this suggestion (which it is simply by virtue of you bringing it into this conversation) is absurd.


Litigations create uncertainty for companies, which must adjust their business decisions accordingly, to live in a pure techinical bubble, without any consideration of the businiss environment, is absurd.


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> Can't even sell them on eBay. I tried, but I guess I waited too long. Shame.
> 
> Rich


The HR10-250's are going for like $50 on eBay. Lol... sux for all the people that dropped 1 large on them . I think I spent $500 on mine. I still have a SAT-T60 and HR10-250 sitting in the closet. I had a few Sony A-50s and A-55s and one B-55, but I dumped those on eBay several years ago for like $50 each. Don't know why I didn't do the same with the DVRs .


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> The only "disallowed" features would be those that cause DIRECTV to lose revenue such as Netflix. Last I checked MRV was a revenue generator for DIRECTV.


I still don't get why PPV is even still around for movies. I get the "instant gratification" thing. I'm big on "instant gratification", but I'm not going to pay $6 for it though when I can get 4 or 5 times the number of movies for a fraction of the price through Netflix.

Too bad DirecTV doesn't see the light and partner with Netflix. The DTV VOD service is a complete joke. $4 to rent Ghostbusters??? What the heck?


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> I still don't get why PPV is even still around for movies. I get the "instant gratification" thing. I'm big on "instant gratification", but I'm not going to pay $6 for it though when I can get 4 or 5 times the number of movies for a fraction of the price through Netflix.


I don't get it personally either but imagine a busy family. Both parents work. Their kids have busy schedules with school and sports, etc. They get a Wednesday evening to hang out as a family and decide they want to watch a move. Netflix DVDs and Blu Rays take planning. The selection on Netflix streaming is not great, especially on newer films. They don't have an Amazon device (lots of folks never have streamed anything). So, they sit down and decide to watch the latest "blockbuster" and pay the 6 bucks. Heck, for a family of four, that is not a lot.

This happens more than one would think. There are a ton of people this fits. Most of them don't hang out on TV internet forums.


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> The HR10-250's are going for like $50 on eBay. Lol... sux for all the people that dropped 1 large on them . I think I spent $500 on mine. I still have a SAT-T60 and HR10-250 sitting in the closet. I had a few Sony A-50s and A-55s and one B-55, but I dumped those on eBay several years ago for like $50 each. Don't know why I didn't do the same with the DVRs .


Fortunately, I never bought a HD TiVo, but I've got a lot of SD TiVos. No market for them at all and they've got big (for them) HDDs in them and still no takers on eBay. Might give Craigslist a try. Hate to just junk them all.

Rich


----------



## Rich

tonyd79 said:


> I don't get it personally either but imagine a busy family. Both parents work. Their kids have busy schedules with school and sports, etc. They get a Wednesday evening to hang out as a family and decide they want to watch a move. Netflix DVDs and Blu Rays take planning. The selection on Netflix streaming is not great, especially on newer films. They don't have an Amazon device (lots of folks never have streamed anything). So, they sit down and decide to watch the latest "blockbuster" and pay the 6 bucks. Heck, for a family of four, that is not a lot.
> 
> This happens more than one would think. There are a ton of people this fits. Most of them don't hang out on TV internet forums.


That's true. I always make the mistake thinking that everyone is doing the same thing I'm doing. Good point, I need to be reminded of that more often.

Rich


----------



## kymikes

rich584 said:


> Fortunately, I never bought a HD TiVo, but I've got a lot of SD TiVos. No market for them at all and they've got big (for them) HDDs in them and still no takers on eBay. Might give Craigslist a try. Hate to just junk them all.
> 
> Rich


Thats why they call it the 'bleeding edge' - you are bleeding cash and time. :lol:


----------



## Rich

kymikes said:


> Thats why they call it the 'bleeding edge' - you are bleeding cash and time. :lol:


First one I looked at cost about a grand. I would have immediately put a bigger HDD in it and I just couldn't justify the cost.

Rich


----------



## kymikes

rich584 said:


> First one I looked at cost about a grand. I would have immediately put a bigger HDD in it and I just couldn't justify the cost.
> 
> Rich


First one I bought did cost a grand (wife had just become sick and TV watching took on new importance) and, yes, I did put a larger hard file in it. However, in today's world, I don't have 8 - ?? DVR's as some do (how do you d/l CE's?) so I have moved to 'piker' status. :hurah:


----------



## Richierich

rich584 said:


> First one I looked at cost about a grand. I would have immediately put a bigger HDD in it and I just couldn't justify the cost.
> 
> Rich


I was supposedly the First Person to buy an HR10-250 and have it Activated by Directv at a cost of $900 because I got a $100 discount by being on a Prepaid Waiting List for valeuelectronics.com and had mine Overnighted so I could get it Faster and then I put a 250 Gig Hard Drive in it using PTVNET or Weaknees (can't remember which one).

I still have both of them even though Directv replaced them with HR2Xs but didn't want my 2 HR10-150s.

I remember watching HDNET in HD and was Blown Away!!!


----------



## Rich

richierich said:


> I was supposedly the First Person to buy an HR10-250 and have it Activated by Directv at a cost of $900 because I got a $100 discount by being on a Prepaid Waiting List for valeuelectronics.com and had mine Overnighted so I could get it Faster and then I put a 250 Gig Hard Drive in it using PTVNET or Weaknees (can't remember which one).
> 
> I still have both of them even though Directv replaced them with HR2Xs but didn't want my 2 HR10-150s.
> 
> I remember watching HDNET in HD and was Blown Away!!!


Yeah, but you're really on the bleeding edge of most things......:lol:

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> Fortunately, I never bought a HD TiVo, but I've got a lot of SD TiVos. No market for them at all and they've got big (for them) HDDs in them and still no takers on eBay. Might give Craigslist a try. Hate to just junk them all.
> 
> Rich


My boss tried to sell old electronics on Craigslist and all he got was some offers to trade for tattoo work. So if you like tattoos, Craigslist would be your best bet.

Might want to check with the Salvation Army to see if you can donate them. Might as well get a tax write off , but they probably wouldn't want them.


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> That's true. I always make the mistake thinking that everyone is doing the same thing I'm doing. Good point, I need to be reminded of that more often.
> 
> Rich


Lol, yeah, I guess if you have a "spur of the moment" tv family night, that'll work. Although Netflix does have streaming.


----------



## tonyd79

[


"SledgeHammer" said:


> Lol, yeah, I guess if you have a "spur of the moment" tv family night, that'll work. Although Netflix does have streaming.


Again. Not everyone has streaming devices to watch on their tv and Netflix does not stream recent movies. I covered that.


----------



## Beerstalker

tonyd79 said:


> [
> 
> Again. Not everyone has streaming devices to watch on their tv and Netflix does not stream recent movies. I covered that.


Not only that but many DirecTV customers don't have access to high speed internet to allow for streaming if they did have those devices. I have PS3, Xbox360, and Blu-Ray players that all allow Netflix etc, but I can't use them because I wouldn't even make it through one movie before I hit my daily download threshold of 500Mb on HughesNet. Not to mention streaming on my 1.6Mbps download speed would suck.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> [
> 
> Again. Not everyone has streaming devices to watch on their tv and Netflix does not stream recent movies. I covered that.


Right... I missed that part lol . Darn speed reading.


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> My boss tried to sell old electronics on Craigslist and all he got was some offers to trade for tattoo work. So if you like tattoos, Craigslist would be your best bet.
> 
> Might want to check with the Salvation Army to see if you can donate them. Might as well get a tax write off , but they probably wouldn't want them.


The Salvation Army has gotten really picky about what they take these days. I tried to give them a bunch of working CRT TVs a couple years ago and they told me they had a six week waiting period to pick up stuff. Off to Christian Charities, who showed up the next day. I'd rather give them away to folks that will use them then to take them to the dump, which "recycles" electronics.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> Lol, yeah, I guess if you have a "spur of the moment" tv family night, that'll work. Although Netflix does have streaming.


No more "family nights". My son doesn't like what we watch and my granddaughter is too young to appreciate the shows we watch. Kinda miss those nights.

Rich


----------



## bonscott87

I never bought the HR10-250 because I knew right away that it didn't support MPEG4 and no way was I going to pay $1000 for something that would be obsolete in 2 years.

But I do remember paying $600+ for the old Hughes E86 HD receiver (non DVR of course) just to get HDNet and 1-2 hours a night of HD via *all* the OTA networks combined and super excited that one (yes one TOTAL) NFL playoff game would be in HD as would be the Super Bowl. And now people complain about the fact their 100 HD channels aren't enough. 

Ahhhh, those were the days.


----------



## Alan Gordon

I gave up on this thread a long time ago. While there are TiVo features I miss (no Series Link limits, Wishlists, etc.), I'm overall quite happy with the HR24-100 HD-DVRs. Admittedly, this is NOT the right thread for this since it's not about the "new" DirecTiVo, BUT I just wanted to mention it somewhere and wasn't sure where else would be appropriate.

I took the April TiVo Advisors' Survey... and was quite interested in some of the features TiVo was polling about, as MANY of them were features currently available on the HR2x DVRs. Some of them aren't, but most were...

I won't go into details, but Dave Zatz commented on some of them on his blog: TiVo Prepping 4 Tuner HD DVR?

~Alan


----------



## fernly

I followed this thread and its predecessors a year or so, then finally gave up and got a new TV and an HR24. Now that I've had a couple months using it, I've written up my impressions of the differences between my good ol' Series 2 DirecTivo and the HR24. Anyone thinking about deserting the Tivo ship is welcome to read it here.

TL;DR: If the HD Tivo ever does appear, it would have to offer significant new function (I can't imagine what that would be) before I'd bother switching back.


----------



## Rich

fernly said:


> I followed this thread and its predecessors a year or so, then finally gave up and got a new TV and an HR24. Now that I've had a couple months using it, I've written up my impressions of the differences between my good ol' Series 2 DirecTivo and the HR24. Anyone thinking about deserting the Tivo ship is welcome to read it here.
> 
> TL;DR: If the HD Tivo ever does appear, it would have to offer significant new function (I can't imagine what that would be) before I'd bother switching back.


None of us have been able to figure out what a TiVo could do that an HR can't. Except cost more money.

Rich


----------



## JBernardK

rich584 said:


> None of us have been able to figure out what a TiVo could do that an HR can't. Except cost more money.
> 
> Rich


How about 50+ season passes, suggestions, full time DLB, etc.


----------



## Rich

JBernardK said:


> How about 50+ season passes, suggestions, full time DLB, etc.


One of the things I really didn't like about the TiVos was suggestions. I know what I want to program, I've never felt the need for them and I thought they were intrusive and not that intuitive. I don't use DLBs and I have 600 season passes to play with. Really, I do have 600 season passes. I don't consider the 50 SLs per HR a problem that cannot be surmounted. And I had many problems with TiVos that I don't have with my HRs.

Rich


----------



## Doug Brott

I know people are disappointed in the 50-series limit of the HR2x, but even at it's absolute worst, I only got to 40 series links on one of my DVRs. For me, it would take a lot of work to get to 50. After 4½ years with an HR2x, I just haven't found one single case where the 50-series limit was even a tiny problem. So at a personal level, I really don't care that there is a limit because for me, it's already infinity.


----------



## harsh

rich584 said:


> One of the things I really didn't like about the TiVos was suggestions. I know what I want to program, I've never felt the need for them and I thought they were intrusive and not that intuitive. I don't use DLBs and I have 600 season passes to play with.


This sounds remarkably like the "I don't subscribe/watch/use it, so WE don't need it" rationalization that gets much more than its fair share of play.


> Really, I do have 600 season passes. I don't consider the 50 SLs per HR a problem that cannot be surmounted.


One shouldn't have to spend an additional $66/month to get a inexhaustible number of season passes. The average DIRECTV bill is around $90 and represents a significant budget item for many as it is.


> And I had many problems with TiVos that I don't have with my HRs.


You say that as if you had never had any similar frustrations with the HR2x series. I'm not sure you're being fair in suggesting that none of those problems have been (or will ever be) addressed by TiVo. The HR2x wish list is alive and kicking as well.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> One shouldn't have to spend an additional $66/month to get a inexhaustible number of season passes. The average DIRECTV bill is around $90 and represents a significant budget item for many as it is.


One shouldn't have to pay $4/gal for gas either .. The limitation is not a secret. If someone finds this utility to be lacking, then there are other options available.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> One shouldn't have to pay $4/gal for gas either .. The limitation is not a secret. If someone finds this utility to be lacking, then there are other options available.


On top of all that....you also correctly pointed out that Series Links in general are quite sufficient at a count of 50 for many, many people.

Of the 100 or so DirecTV customers I know personally, none have ever expressed a problem with the 50 ceiling - not once. Rest assured - I've asked all of them at one time or another.


----------



## Rich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> On top of all that....you also correctly pointed out that Series Links in general are quite sufficient at a count of 50 for many, many people.
> 
> Of the 100 or so DirecTV customers I know personally, none have ever expressed a problem with the 50 ceiling - not once. Rest assured - I've asked all of them at one time or another.


Even with all the SLs I have, most are dedicated to backing up other DVRs, and I've never come close to 50. There just aren't 50 programs that I'd want to watch on a permanent basis.

Rich


----------



## weaver6

I have run up against the 50 series limit. But, with Whole Home, I now have a 100 series limit, which is sufficient for now.


----------



## inkahauts

With WH I now have a limit of 700 SL's, so I am not concerned about SL limits.. 

That puts me behind Tom by what, another 700 or so???


----------



## Rich

weaver6 said:


> I have run up against the 50 series limit. But, with Whole Home, I now have a 100 series limit, which is sufficient for now.


Now that's what I'm talking about! There's usually a work-around for these issues and you've done it. Sensible move.

Rich


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> With WH I now have a limit of 700 SL's, so I am not concerned about SL limits..
> 
> That puts me behind Tom by what, another 700 or so???


How many SD units are you counting? Do you have 14 HRs?

Rich


----------



## tonyd79

rich584 said:


> How many SD units are you counting? Do you have 14 HRs?
> 
> Rich


He has a setup link in his signature.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2678914#post2678914

I only see 600 SLs and no mention of his H24.


----------



## Rich

tonyd79 said:


> He has a setup link in his signature.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2678914#post2678914
> 
> I only see 600 SLs and no mention of his H24.


Good Lord, he has as many HRs as I have! Wonder how much capacity he has.

Rich


----------



## TBoneit

rich584 said:


> Even with all the SLs I have, most are dedicated to backing up other DVRs, and I've never come close to 50. There just aren't 50 programs that I'd want to watch on a permanent basis.
> 
> Rich


Since I tend to keep my DVRs set with many of the same timers set for new only every now and then I bump up against the limit and have to go clear out old most likely never to return series. One DVR for myself and One DVR for Family, never the two to be connected. Having seen some disasters by others on the family DVR I don't want to risk things I want to see.

As far as 50 programs, Possible for me, with Network shows, channels like USA and TNT & SciFi that show original programming.



fernly said:


> I followed this thread and its predecessors a year or so, then finally gave up and got a new TV and an HR24. Now that I've had a couple months using it, I've written up my impressions of the differences between my good ol' Series 2 DirecTivo and the HR24. Anyone thinking about deserting the Tivo ship is welcome to read it here.
> 
> TL;DR: If the HD Tivo ever does appear, it would have to offer significant new function (I can't imagine what that would be) before I'd bother switching back.


Would you switch back for no additional functionality if it were faster & more reliable?


----------



## tonyd79

TBoneit said:


> Would you switch back for no additional functionality if it were faster & more reliable?


How can you be more reliable than the DirecTV HR's the last couple of years? I have missed maybe 1 to 2 programs in the last year not involving weather or power (both would be a problem for any satellite based DVR).

(BTW, the last Tivo I had was not very reliable at all. They are going backwards on that.)


----------



## Tom Robertson

inkahauts said:


> With WH I now have a limit of 700 SL's, so I am not concerned about SL limits..
> 
> That puts me behind Tom by what, another 700 or so???


Now with whole home, I actually down to one per room rather than 2 (or more) I had at one point. 

I liked my TiVo, it was great! And I like my HR2x even more. The one button series link is so much better.

I have one DVR with every SL I generally want and it is right around 31 or 32. I suppose I could add some SLs for the really hard to find programs I would like from the past: _Banacek_, _Wild Wild West_, etc. (only in HD) 

That said, I do understand people want more SLs. DIRECTV knows too. If they can do it "right", they will increase the limit. They won't make it 52, that isn't right. But I don't know what "right" will be. 

As for TiVo today--I don't need it. I do hope it is available soon for thems who do want it.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## TBoneit

tonyd79 said:


> How can you be more reliable than the DirecTV HR's the last couple of years? I have missed maybe 1 to 2 programs in the last year not involving weather or power (both would be a problem for any satellite based DVR).
> 
> (BTW, the last Tivo I had was not very reliable at all. They are going backwards on that.)


OK, I see what happened, I was thinking of the many complaints here about bad hardware. DirecTV really needs to change external drives to household key so if you replace the DVR everything isn't lost.

I had a series one Tivo Lifetime sub from the time it was Tivo or Replay for a DVR. It was approx 2000 or 2001 prior to the Dishnetwork Dishplayer which I believe was the first integrated DVR and Sat box in one. Definitely prior to the Ultimate TV... The Tivo Stand Alone has run for years and years and was still faithfully recording some recurring timers when I pulled the plug on it last fall. That was what I meant by reliable both H/W & S/w.

OT I sold some used Dishplayers here at work for people that wanted them only as WebTV terminals.

If the programs you missed shouldn't have been missed, shame on D*, If it was guide data, oh Well that happens. I think I can count on the finger of one hand missed recordings personally excluding oops of course.


----------



## tonyd79

"TBoneit" said:


> OK, I see what happened, I was thinking of the many complaints here about bad hardware. DirecTV really needs to change external drives to household key so if you replace the DVR everything isn't lost.
> 
> I had a series one Tivo Lifetime sub from the time it was Tivo or Replay for a DVR. It was approx 2000 or 2001 prior to the Dishnetwork Dishplayer which I believe was the first integrated DVR and Sat box in one. Definitely prior to the Ultimate TV... The Tivo Stand Alone has run for years and years and was still faithfully recording some recurring timers when I pulled the plug on it last fall. That was what I meant by reliable both H/W & S/w.
> 
> OT I sold some used Dishplayers here at work for people that wanted them only as WebTV terminals.
> 
> If the programs you missed shouldn't have been missed, shame on D*, If it was guide data, oh Well that happens. I think I can count on the finger of one hand missed recordings personally excluding oops of course.


I didn't finish. I missed more with my Series 3 TiVo and I barely used the thing.


----------



## jal

Bueller, anyone? Bueller, anyone, hello, Bueller?


----------



## fasTLane

Folks come here hoping to get updates on the new Tivo and what they find is a p*ssing contest. :nono:


----------



## Jeremy W

fasTLane said:


> Folks come here hoping to get updates on the new Tivo and what they find is a p*ssing contest. :nono:


What are you talking about? And congratulations on your 23rd post in five years simply making things worse.


----------



## fasTLane

Jeremy W said:


> What are you talking about? And congratulations on your 23rd post in five years simply making things worse.


Worse? LOL :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

June or July still on the radar .. at least I haven't heard anything to the contrary at this point ...


----------



## Alan Gordon

I was bored, so I popped in this thread. Again, I've given up on the TiVo, and embraced my HR24-100s... just so everyone knows where I stand. That being said, I wanted to comment on Doug's statement below:



Doug Brott said:


> I know people are disappointed in the 50-series limit of the HR2x, but even at it's absolute worst, I only got to 40 series links on one of my DVRs. For me, it would take a lot of work to get to 50. After 4½ years with an HR2x, I just haven't found one single case where the 50-series limit was even a tiny problem. So at a personal level, I really don't care that there is a limit because for me, it's already infinity.


Right now, I'm not at capacity either.

9 shows I was watching at the beginning of Fall have been cancelled. 2-3 are circling the drain (some of which have already ended as well). 4-6 "on the bubble" have already ended, and of course, there's the fact that when the Fall season started, I had The CW in HD from another market, but when a local station added the CW on a sub-channel, I got stuck with The CW in SD, and decided to catch up with those shows ("Smallville", "Supernatural", etc.) on Blu-ray later this year... and those are just the broadcast networks...

HOWEVER, I'm sure that it will become a problem again soon. In June, a lot of the Summer series I watch will be starting up again (with more coming in July), so I'll need to add them, and will most likely have to delete some of the Series Links on some of my DVRs in order to add them. Once September hits, I'll have to delete some of the Summer SLs, to make room for returning favorites, as well as to make room for new series that I want to try out ( some of which will be pared down either due to cancellation or lack of interest).

Some of the other issues I have with the Series Link limit is that I also like to record... well, things. For instance, I like to record "Nothing But Trailers" on HDNet, so I have a Series Link set up for it... and since the trailers are usually repeated among multiple episodes, it really doesn't take me long to fast forward through them and stop to watch new ones debuting for the first time. There are a few other recordings that I might like to do the same with... like the local news. Most of the time, the stuff being said rarely interests me, but occasionally there's a tidbit of information that does, and if I want to record it, that's multiple SLs right there.

SyFy (and some other channels) have a tendency to run marathons (like they recently did with "Eureka"), and back when I had TiVo, not only would I leave Season Passes for cable shows on the DVR, I'd also leave some cancelled shows that occasionally run on these channels...

On the TiVo, I used to have over 100 WishLists... none of them set up to record, but for me to peruse occasionally to look for upcoming shows/movies. The HR2x does not have the same ability (beyond 25.. and if you do a new search, one of them gets deleted), but it does allow you to set AutoRecord, which works quite similar to a WishList when you set it up to AutoRecord... unfortunately, any AutoRecords set up on an HR2x count as part of your 50 SL limit...

I also like to set up duplicate Series Links for *SOME* of my favorite series on multiple DVRs, whether it's for conflict issues, rain-fade issues (one via satellite, one via antenna), local issues (one local, one DNS), etc.

"Whole-Home DVR" and multiple DVRs certainly makes things easier, but I still can't do things like I'd like to be able too, and I ESPECIALLY miss one of my favorite features of the DVR... the ability to "set it and forget it," because with the HR2x DVRs, I continually have to delete series when they go on hiatus (or whatever) to make room for other shows... and keep track of season premieres.

I realize everybody has different habits, and the limit is not a big deal for everyone, but as someone who has (essentially) moved away from TiVo, it remains one of the few differences I consistently miss.

~Alan


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alan,

I hear you completely. Even though I have not hit the limit, everyone who explains their variation of how they would like the limit increased helps us all understand how people like to the use their DVRs. 

I know DIRECTV doesn't want to increase the limit by just a few. If they can't increase it meaningfully, they will keep looking until they can.

Thanks again,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

fasTLane said:


> Worse? LOL :lol:


Yes, making an off-topic post while complaining about off-topic posts is making what you're complaining about worse.


----------



## jal

The new Directivo will be released the week after I decide to switch to cable for Tivo!


----------



## fasTLane

Jeremy W said:


> Yes, making an off-topic post while complaining about off-topic posts is making what you're complaining about worse.


Worse than you making an off-topic post of an off-topic post of off-topic posts? :lol: :sure: :hurah:

A moot point since ye old topic is back to what I originally came here for, *no *thanks to you. :grin: Nice avatar.


----------



## Jeremy W

fasTLane said:


> Worse than you making an off-topic post of an off-topic post of off-topic posts? :lol: :sure: :hurah:


I wasn't the one complaining about off-topic posts in the first place, genius. There has been no real info lately on the DirecTivo, so off-topic posts are basically the only thing keeping this thread alive. Which is why it's so ridiculous to complain about them.


----------



## fasTLane

Jeremy W said:


> I wasn't the one complaining about off-topic posts in the first place, genius. There has been no real info lately on the DirecTivo, so off-topic posts are basically the only thing keeping this thread alive. Which is why it's so ridiculous to complain about them.


More like observation/commentary, no complaint. And as to the ridiculous, you are so right. Cheers.


----------



## jacmyoung

"fasTLane" said:


> More like observation/commentary, no complaint. And as to the ridiculous, you are so right. Cheers.


Why can't one complain? What else do we suppose those who are waiting for the new DirecTiVo should do here?


----------



## Doug Brott

OK guys .. we get the point .. :backtotop


----------



## CompuDude

Tom Robertson said:


> Alan,
> 
> I hear you completely. Even though I have not hit the limit, everyone who explains their variation of how they would like the limit increased helps us all understand how people like to the use their DVRs.
> 
> I know DIRECTV doesn't want to increase the limit by just a few. If they can't increase it meaningfully, they will keep looking until they can.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Tom


Why is this such a problem? Is there truly some seemingly-insurmountable programming problem that prevents them from bumping up the limit?

I, too, run into the limit all the time. In this new era of long hiatuses between shows (particularly quality shows on HBO and Showtime), I often want to leave a show on there for a long time, since it could easily be a year before the show picks up again. My wife and I watch a LOT of the excellent shows on those pay channels. And I watch a lot of series in SyFy, USA, and FX, in addition to standard network fare. Add in fun stuff on Comedy Central, BBC America and the Discovery channel, and it's quite easy to go over the limit. Like Alan, I have to constantly prune shows that are on hiatus for the season, and keep a sharp eye on the schedules (especially with mid-season replacements) for old shows starting back up, since most likely, by the time they start up, I will have had to remove them to make way for others. There have been several times that I've had to resort to torrent sites to download the first few episodes of a season when I find out a show I watch has returned while I wasn't paying attention. With my TiVo this wasn't an issue, since I could leave old series on there as long as I wanted.

Bumping the limit up by 10 would help a lot. By 20 would help even more.

Adding whole home would help considerably, although not completely (my wife has a full slate of Oxygen, E! And other various reality tv shows that I abhor), but I can't do that unless I finally convince my wife to give up her beloved TiVo. Unless, of course, the new dtv TiVo finally makes it to market in time. And then I have to hope it includes whole home viewing.

I'm just checking in on is thread again, since I gave up on it late last year. And I see that once again, the release date is only a few months away! :nono2:


----------



## Jeremy W

CompuDude said:


> Is there truly some seemingly-insurmountable programming problem that prevents them from bumping up the limit?


I'm going to go ahead and say that there is, otherwise they would have either raised or eliminated the limit by now. I'm sure they didn't just set it for fun. The difference between the HR2x and most other DVRs is that it's constantly receiving new guide data, and it's constantly keeping the ToDo List up to date with that guide data.

I'm guessing that during development, they found that if they went significantly higher than 50 SLs, they ran into performance issues. The processors in these boxes aren't terribly powerful.


----------



## CompuDude

Hmm. Not sure "the processor is too wimpy" is the best defense, here. Especially with the speed improvements touted by the HR24 series boxes.

And the unerase/trash/recycle bin option?


----------



## Jeremy W

CompuDude said:


> Hmm. Not sure "the processor is too wimpy" is the best defense, here.


Well I'm pretty sure that's the reason. Take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me.


CompuDude said:


> And the unerase/trash/recycle bin option?


What about it?


----------



## bobcamp1

Jeremy W said:


> I'm going to go ahead and say that there is, otherwise they would have either raised or eliminated the limit by now. I'm sure they didn't just set it for fun. The difference between the HR2x and most other DVRs is that it's constantly receiving new guide data, and it's constantly keeping the ToDo List up to date with that guide data.
> 
> I'm guessing that during development, they found that if they went significantly higher than 50 SLs, they ran into performance issues. The processors in these boxes aren't terribly powerful.


The Series 1 Tivo is roughly a generation or two behind in chipsets (54 MHz ?) than the HR20, and it has no limit. The DVR can always crunch the data as a background task, which happens almost all the time.  The Series 1 gets the list populated correctly in an hour or two after an update.

The HR24 is also not keeping the To Do list continuously refreshed, as I've seen it take a while to process changes. Not a long time, but not instantaneous.

It's probably a mix of both reasons. They started out with some limitations which included chipset speed, so they imposed a limit in the database based on that original speed to make the programming easier. Flash forward to today, and the HR24 chipset is plenty fast enough, but rewriting all that legacy code takes a long time. Plus, you've just spent four years debugging it -- why start all over?

I do think it's silly, and is an example of how a decision you thought was trivial 5 years ago turns around and bites you in the ___.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The Series 1 and Series 2 TiVos also had major scaling problems when the number of channels ballooned to several hundred. Changes to the priority list could take a very long time to update. Eventually TiVo managed to make updates a bit more timely, but never fast.

Also did TiVo ever introduce full boolean keyword searches? They can eat up CPU cycles.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobcamp1

Tom Robertson said:


> The Series 1 and Series 2 TiVos also had major scaling problems when the number of channels ballooned to several hundred. Changes to the priority list could take a very long time to update. Eventually TiVo managed to make updates a bit more timely, but never fast.
> 
> Also did TiVo ever introduce full boolean keyword searches? They can eat up CPU cycles.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


My Tivos are fine. They introduced "swivel search" (Smart search) in Series 2, and simple Boolean operators in wishlists in all models. Advanced Boolean is available in Series 2 and higher (I'm pretty sure).

My Series 1 hasn't had problems. It takes a while to completely update the to do list, but it figures out the first hour first, then the next hour in 10 minutes, then the third hour in another 10 minutes, etc. (with around 50 Season Passes). I've never had it miss a show because of that. It's not even noticeable, as there aren't a lot of last-minute guide changes.

Guide data is not about CPU cycles. All the DVR does is record and figure out what to record next. That's what's nice about computers -- they work 24/7/365.

However, users expect a device to immediately respond to (or at least acknowledge) remote key presses. That's where CPU cycles come in handy.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bobcamp1 said:


> My Tivos are fine. They introduced "swivel search" (Smart search) in Series 2, and simple Boolean operators in wishlists in all models. Advanced Boolean is available in Series 2 and higher (I'm pretty sure).
> 
> My Series 1 hasn't had problems. It takes a while to completely update the to do list, but it figures out the first hour first, then the next hour in 10 minutes, then the third hour in another 10 minutes, etc. (with around 50 Season Passes). I've never had it miss a show because of that. It's not even noticeable, as there aren't a lot of last-minute guide changes.
> 
> Guide data is not about CPU cycles. All the DVR does is record and figure out what to record next. That's what's nice about computers -- they work 24/7/365.
> 
> However, users expect a device to immediately respond to (or at least acknowledge) remote key presses. That's where CPU cycles come in handy.


Full boolean searches can eat up lots of CPU cycles if you have many options upon which to search. Also DIRECTV is sending roughly 3600 channels of data constantly. The receiver must discard that which it doesn't need and load into the DB that which it does. No cable provider has that many channels. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobcamp1

Tom Robertson said:


> Full boolean searches can eat up lots of CPU cycles if you have many options upon which to search. Also DIRECTV is sending roughly 3600 channels of data constantly. The receiver must discard that which it doesn't need and load into the DB that which it does. No cable provider has that many channels.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I've been using my Series 1 controlling an H24. So the Tivo I'm talking about loads in all that DirecTV guide data, figures out which ones I don't get (with a channels I receive function that actually works because it is customizable), then does all those things you mentioned.It only does it once every 36 hours, but I bet Tribune doesn't send out updates but once a day.

As far as user interaction, you can prioritize the processing of the guide data to be a low priority. So the boolean searches would be using most of the "CPU" cycles for the minute or two while the user is using it. Then it goes back to finish updating the guide data.

As far as continuously monitoring the guide data, didn't the old DirecTivos do that? Did they have a series pass limit? Plus, you can always not monitor the guide data or just store it a queue somewhere and process it once in a while. I think the 50 limit is D* taking the really easy way out of something that isn't that difficult to do. But it's probably also too difficult and risky to change it at this point.


----------



## tonyd79

I never saw a priority on processing on the TiVos I had. How do you do that?


----------



## JBernardK

bobcamp1 said:


> I think the 50 limit is D* taking the really easy way out of something that isn't that difficult to do.


Not to mention they could also sell a lot of extra DVRs.


----------



## Doug Brott

bobcamp1 said:


> It only does it once every 36 hours, but I bet Tribune doesn't send out updates but once a day.


Just a point of note .. DIRECTV uses the Tribune data and it is continuously updated. I once saw this occur before my very eyes as I (coincidently) was viewing the guide data to record a program a few minutes before it was scheduled to start. I pressed guide a second time (literally seconds later) and a different program was showing. The one I'd set to record had moved from a 7pm(ish) time slot to a 1am time slot and was still set to record correctly, but there was different program data for the original time slot. This was all within 10-15 minutes of airtime. The updated guide data was exactly what ended up being shown. So, the HR2x does in fact look at guide data continuously .. not once every 36 hours.


----------



## JBernardK

Doug Brott said:


> Just a point of note .. DIRECTV uses the Tribune data and it is continuously updated. I once saw this occur before my very eyes as I (coincidently) was viewing the guide data to record a program a few minutes before it was scheduled to start. I pressed guide a second time (literally seconds later) and a different program was showing. The one I'd set to record had moved from a 7pm(ish) time slot to a 1am time slot and was still set to record correctly, but there was different program data for the original time slot. This was all within 10-15 minutes of airtime. The updated guide data was exactly what ended up being shown. So, the HR2x does in fact look at guide data continuously .. not once every 36 hours.


Seeing one change does not imply that it updates continuously. You could have just hit the time that it did its daily update.


----------



## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> Seeing one change does not imply that it updates continuously. You could have just hit the time that it did its daily update.


Then let me put it another way .. I know that it updates continually. In fact, it could update AFTER a program starts.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bobcamp1 said:


> I've been using my Series 1 controlling an H24. So the Tivo I'm talking about loads in all that DirecTV guide data, figures out which ones I don't get (with a channels I receive function that actually works because it is customizable), then does all those things you mentioned.It only does it once every 36 hours, but I bet Tribune doesn't send out updates but once a day.
> 
> As far as user interaction, you can prioritize the processing of the guide data to be a low priority. So the boolean searches would be using most of the "CPU" cycles for the minute or two while the user is using it. Then it goes back to finish updating the guide data.
> 
> As far as continuously monitoring the guide data, didn't the old DirecTivos do that? Did they have a series pass limit? Plus, you can always not monitor the guide data or just store it a queue somewhere and process it once in a while. I think the 50 limit is D* taking the really easy way out of something that isn't that difficult to do. But it's probably also too difficult and risky to change it at this point.


As Doug points out, DIRECTV is continuously sending guide data that the HR2x DVRs then continuously review against the Series list. Thus, if someone has a complex list of boolean searches, they are all processed frequently. (And not just once when the user enters it as your post implies.)

Lastly, the old DIRECTiVos only had access to data once per day at night. They would tune to a particular infomercial that had the data in the background, if I recall correctly. So the HR2x family have instant guide updates instead of unlimited number of series passes.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> Lastly, the old DIRECTiVos only had access to data once per day at night. They would tune to a particular infomercial that had the data in the background, if I recall correctly. So the HR2x family have instant guide updates instead of unlimited number of series passes.


I believe the late-night download was for Tivo's extended information, while it got the basic guide data from the stream. I haven't had a Tivo in many years though, so I could easily be wrong.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> I believe the late-night download was for Tivo's extended information, while it got the basic guide data from the stream. I haven't had a Tivo in many years though, so I could easily be wrong.


Now that you mention it, I think you are correct.

So that makes me wonder how the TiVos processed more complex searches. Do they pre-process the extended data or have to do the same thing the HR2x do by re-processing the entire todo list with each update?

cheers,
Tom


----------



## Rich

JBernardK said:


> Seeing one change does not imply that it updates continuously. You could have just hit the time that it did its daily update.


That was my first thought, then I came to my senses. What are the odds on that happening?

Rich


----------



## tonyd79

JBernardK said:


> Seeing one change does not imply that it updates continuously. You could have just hit the time that it did its daily update.


They push updates all the time. Within minutes of a baseball game being rained out, the guide is updated with that information. So, the unit has to be polling for that at a minimum.


----------



## sorrycharlie

From Tivo's press release this morning!

http://pr.tivo.com/easyir/customrel...ersion=live&prid=750426&releasejsp=custom_150

TiVo also granted EchoStar a license under the same '389 patent and certain related patents, for the remaining life of those patents, *to design and make certain DVR-enabled products solely for DISH Network and two international customers. *

So... Not only are we not getting National HD Channels... Were also not getting a new MPEG4 Tivo!  I really wish Fios was in my area!


----------



## spartanstew

1. I'm hoping there's never another Directv Tivo because it will be trash.
2. While you may end up being correct, that's not what the statement you indicated states.


----------



## Doug Brott

sorrycharlie said:


> From Tivo's press release this morning!
> 
> http://pr.tivo.com/easyir/customrel...ersion=live&prid=750426&releasejsp=custom_150
> 
> TiVo also granted EchoStar a license under the same '389 patent and certain related patents, for the remaining life of those patents, *to design and make certain DVR-enabled products solely for DISH Network and two international customers. *
> 
> So... Not only are we not getting National HD Channels... Were also not getting a new MPEG4 Tivo!  I really wish Fios was in my area!


DIRECTV already has arrangements with TiVo .. This will not stop the DIRECTV TiVo from being produced .. Now, TiVo may decide on their own to back out and that might make some sense given the underwhelming support for the new DIRECTV TiVo thus far. However, it's close to actual release at this point. Would kinda be surprising to some degree for them to shutter it at this particular point.

Now, it is very possible that TiVo has agreed to NOT add particular features to the DIRECTV model in lieu of getting an agreement with DISH Network. But that doesn't mean that ALL features will not be available.


----------



## veryoldschool

It may be splitting hairs, but Tivo software on a DirecTV platform and Tivo making hardware for Dish are two different things. Both of which look to be happening.


----------



## Doug Brott

So perhaps the DISH/TiVo war has finally come to an end.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

If so, it would be about time.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> However, it's close to actual release at this point. Would kinda be surprising to some degree for them to shutter it at this particular point.


Not at all. It will cost both companies a fair bit of money to support these units out in the field (if they ever get that far). DirecTV has to do the customer service and support. Since the UI is very different, they have to train some if not all of the front line people on the new units. Along with service & support, there will be extra time and money to coordinate accounts with Tivo, pay them out, etc. Satellite time for Tivo related stuff, QA on software updates, time to deploy those updates, etc. None of this stuff is free or cheap.

If they see that it'll cost a few million per year to support 1000 DirecTivos, they'll pull the plug for sure .


----------



## Doug Brott

DIRECTV is committed to doing it's part .. I don't think there would be any love loss if TiVo pulled out, but from DIRECTV's side of things, nothing will have changed. Certain obligations are already under contract.

If TiVo comes out and says "Psych" then DIRECTV would probably say "no problem, we understand, but we're going to continue using the tools in which you may have Patent rights since you (TiVo) agreed to those terms earlier."

But like I said .. Last I heard, June or July was still in play.


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> If they see that it'll cost a few million per year to support 1000 DirecTivos, they'll pull the plug for sure .


It's not about that .. DIRECTV is interested in the rights to the Patents. DIRECTV will do it's part for the bigger picture.


----------



## Jeremy W

sorrycharlie said:


> From Tivo's press release this morning!
> 
> http://pr.tivo.com/easyir/customrel...ersion=live&prid=750426&releasejsp=custom_150
> 
> TiVo also granted EchoStar a license under the same '389 patent and certain related patents, for the remaining life of those patents, *to design and make certain DVR-enabled products solely for DISH Network and two international customers. *
> 
> So... Not only are we not getting National HD Channels... Were also not getting a new MPEG4 Tivo!  I really wish Fios was in my area!


You're reading the quote incorrectly. Tivo granted the license to EchoStar for Dish and the two international customers. Meaning EchoStar can't go out and make DVRs using those patents for anyone but those three customers. It has absolutely nothing to do with limiting what Tivo can do, since they own the patents.


----------



## Rich

spartanstew said:


> 1. I'm hoping there's never another Directv Tivo because it will be trash.
> 2. While you may end up being correct, that's not what the statement you indicated states.


I read that whole thing and I can't find anything that says "no TiVo for D*".

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> It's not about that .. DIRECTV is interested in the rights to the Patents. DIRECTV will do it's part for the bigger picture.


Didn't they sign a "no litigation" deal? Do you know when Tivos patents expire and when the "no litigation" deal expires? After the patents expire, DTV (and Dish) are free to do what they want with or without Tivo.


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> I read that whole thing and I can't find anything that says "no TiVo for D*".
> 
> Rich


Yeah, the guy who originally posted that misread the article. It said something like "Tivo will produce DVRs exclusively for Dish / Echostar" and he thought that meant no Tivo for DirecTV when in reality it means DVRs that will only work on Dish / Echostar.


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, the guy who originally posted that misread the article. It said something like "Tivo will produce DVRs exclusively for Dish / Echostar" and he thought that meant no Tivo for DirecTV when in reality it means DVRs that will only work on Dish / Echostar.


Glad I read it correctly. Sometimes...

Rich


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, the guy who originally posted that misread the article. It said something like "Tivo will produce DVRs exclusively for Dish / Echostar" and he thought that meant no Tivo for DirecTV when in reality it means DVRs that will only work on Dish / Echostar.


It said absolutely nothing about what Tivo will produce. Read it again.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> DIRECTV is committed to doing it's part .. I don't think there would be any love loss if TiVo pulled out, but from DIRECTV's side of things, nothing will have changed. Certain obligations are already under contract.
> 
> If TiVo comes out and says "Psych" then DIRECTV would probably say "no problem, we understand, but we're going to continue using the tools in which you may have Patent rights since you (TiVo) agreed to those terms earlier."
> 
> But like I said .. Last I heard, June or July was still in play.


TiVo's poison pill will be gone by June (60 days after the en banc ruling), there are analysts already speculating an Echostar (not DISH) and TiVo merger. If that should happen I doubt we will ever see the new DirecTiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> TiVo's poison pill will be gone by June (60 days after the en banc ruling), there are analysts already speculating an Echostar (not DISH) and TiVo merger. If that should happen I doubt we will ever see the new DirecTiVo.


Possibly, but there is no way this change would make it so that DIRECTV was in violation of Patent arrangements. The DIRECTV TiVo may be gone, but any claims TiVo may have made against DIRECTV for the HR series would not suddenly be available.


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> Didn't they sign a "no litigation" deal? Do you know when Tivos patents expire and when the "no litigation" deal expires? After the patents expire, DTV (and Dish) are free to do what they want with or without Tivo.


The non litigation agreement expires in 2015 with an option to extend to 2018 .. Specifics, I don't know. The relevant Patents expire in 2018.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Possibly, but there is no way this change would make it so that DIRECTV was in violation of Patent arrangements. The DIRECTV TiVo may be gone, but any claims TiVo may have made against DIRECTV for the HR series would not suddenly be available.


Of course DirecTV wouldn't be liable.


----------



## CuriousMark

jacmyoung said:


> TiVo's poison pill will be gone by June (60 days after the en banc ruling), there are analysts already speculating an Echostar (not DISH) and TiVo merger. If that should happen I doubt we will ever see the new DirecTiVo.


No. Six months after the final ruling that codifies the settlement is when the poison pill lifts.


----------



## jacmyoung

"CuriousMark" said:


> No. Six months after the final ruling that codifies the settlement is when the poison pill lifts.


That would put it right in Doug's Christmas time frame, damn I hate it when Doug is always right


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> That would put it right in Doug's Christmas time frame, damn I hate it when Doug is always right


Doug's time frame is June or July, not Christmas.


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:


> Doug's time frame is June or July, not Christmas.


I am sure Doug knows very well better have a plan B for this baby.


----------



## bobcamp1

jacmyoung said:


> TiVo's poison pill will be gone by June (60 days after the en banc ruling), there are analysts already speculating an Echostar (not DISH) and TiVo merger. If that should happen I doubt we will ever see the new DirecTiVo.


That was my thought as well. It's not a settlement as much as an interest-free loan. If Echostar buys Tivo next year, they'll get their money back.

The statement just had the typical IPR exchange text in it. This doesn't directly jeopardize the HD DirecTivo.


----------



## bobcamp1

tonyd79 said:


> They push updates all the time. Within minutes of a baseball game being rained out, the guide is updated with that information. So, the unit has to be polling for that at a minimum.


Well, it doesn't HAVE to continuously update, but it's a nice feature as long as it works correctly.

I haven't seen it work yet in my HR24. Whenever a sports event delays the start of the following show, the show doesn't seem to get its start time updated. I also seem to need padding at the end of sports events so that the whole thing is captured in case it goes into overtime. But I will continue to watch for this feature.


----------



## Jeremy W

bobcamp1 said:


> Whenever a sports event delays the start of the following show, the show doesn't seem to get its start time updated.


The networks never send out updates in these cases, so of course you're not going to see them.


----------



## tonyd79

bobcamp1 said:


> Well, it doesn't HAVE to continuously update, but it's a nice feature as long as it works correctly.
> 
> I haven't seen it work yet in my HR24. Whenever a sports event delays the start of the following show, the show doesn't seem to get its start time updated. I also seem to need padding at the end of sports events so that the whole thing is captured in case it goes into overtime. But I will continue to watch for this feature.


It has never been used that way because the data is not sent out from the network through the Tribune service. I have only seen it on baseball games that are cancelled. But it means that the DVR is polling for the data or it would not work. I do not know if the scheduling is updated based upon it or not or how fast it would update the scheduling if it did. I only know that the guide data is updated and the DVR is at least polling for the guide data to update. If that triggers something immediately in the scheduling, I do not know as I have not seen a change yet.

It would be nice if it were used more if it actually works. But who is going to update that 60 Minutes is on late?


----------



## Rich

tonyd79 said:


> It would be nice if it were used more if it actually works. But who is going to update that 60 Minutes is on late?


I don't remember the TiVos picking up the shows because a football game ran over it's alloted time. I had to pad the show I wanted to see just as I do with my HRs.

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> I don't remember the TiVos picking up the shows because a football game ran over it's alloted time. I had to pad the show I wanted to see just as I do with my HRs.
> 
> Rich


Yeah, it definitely wasn't automatic. I always had to add 15 to 30min padding to RAW because it runs over every week. The cool thing on the HR is that it auto warns you to add padding on live shows.


----------



## Tom Robertson

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, it definitely wasn't automatic. I always had to add 15 to 30min padding to RAW because it runs over every week. The cool thing on the HR is that it auto warns you to add padding on live shows.


I learned many years ago, always pad. I did in the time of VCR, then TiVos, now generically in "DVRs". 

I like that finally DVRs can pad two back to back shows on the same channel using just one tuner. That drove me crazy for the longest time (as a computer programmer.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## balboadave

A prompt to add padding to live events is very cool. I'll be impressed when the DVR asks to pad a recording that airs *after* a live event that you might not otherwise know about.


----------



## mtyler18

...so, I am somewhat confused about the new TiVo. I have heard some rumblings at the in-laws that they don't think it will happen because D** started Home Premiere which is similar to Tivo's partnership with Netflix and it could be seen as a conflict of interests. Also, wasn't D** saying the new TiVo was going to be an HD-DVR type?


----------



## optix

Back in the dy I had a DTIVO and boy do I miss that thing. I will be joining DTV and look forward to this release.


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, it definitely wasn't automatic. I always had to add 15 to 30min padding to RAW because it runs over every week. The cool thing on the HR is that it auto warns you to add padding on live shows.


And, for the Yankees games, which are repeated at least once a day, it lets you know if you are recording the live game or a repeat. Makes programming the games much easier.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

optix said:


> Back in the dy I had a DTIVO and boy do I miss that thing. I will be joining DTV and look forward to this release.


Why are you waiting for a tivo? The current HR's are better than the new tivo will ever be...


----------



## fikuserectus

This product is Vaporware. It will never be available. Tivo will become a company that will license their technology to other vendors and providers. A Tivo is no longer unique device.

Mark my words! You will never see this product become available. If it was going to happen it would have years ago!


----------



## Doug Brott

I know for a fact that this product exists today. There are way more than a few prototypes built. I still expect either June or July at this point and eternal vaporware seems pretty unlikely at this point.


----------



## jal

Thanks Doug. I am looking forward to getting one!


----------



## litzdog911

fikuserectus said:


> ....
> 
> Mark my words! ...


Why should we mark your words?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> I know for a fact that this product exists today. There are way more than a few prototypes built. I still expect either June or July at this point and eternal vaporware seems pretty unlikely at this point.


Have you seen one?


----------



## fikuserectus

Vaporware. Demo models for investors. This product will never be sold.


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> Have you seen one?


Is this a trick question? :lol:

What do you think?


----------



## Doug Brott

fikuserectus said:


> Vaporware. Demo models for investors. This product will never be sold.


OK .. You're 100% @ never .. I'm at maybe 5-10% never and about 90-95% yes it will. Probably better than 50% that it will happen within the next 90 days.


----------



## mkdtv21

Just a thought that maybe this Directivo UI will be the same situation as the Motorola Comcast Tivo which has its own custom UI that is different from the series 2 or 3 tivos. That means the UI could be better or worse than the HR10-250.


----------



## andunn27

fikuserectus said:


> This product is Vaporware. It will never be available. Tivo will become a company that will license their technology to other vendors and providers. A Tivo is no longer unique device.
> 
> Mark my words! You will never see this product become available. If it was going to happen it would have years ago!


I guess that means that the boxes that beta testing is being done on are "Vaporware" as well....


----------



## Jeremy W

andunn27 said:


> I guess that means that the boxes that beta testing is being done on are "Vaporware" as well....


It's vaporware until it's publically available.


----------



## Doug Brott

mkdtv21 said:


> Just a thought that maybe this Directivo UI will be the same situation as the Motorola Comcast Tivo which has its own custom UI that is different from the series 2 or 3 tivos. That means the UI could be better or worse than the HR10-250.


I think you will be hard pressed to actually find a difference between "new" and "old" DIRECTV versions.


----------



## tonyd79

"Doug Brott" said:


> I think you will be hard pressed to actually find a difference between "new" and "old" DIRECTV versions.


Everything that's old is new again.


----------



## wingrider01

fikuserectus said:


> Vaporware. Demo models for investors. This product will never be sold.


as much as I hate the tivo unit you are probably 100 percent right - it probably will never be sold, but it will be leased


----------



## wingrider01

mkdtv21 said:


> Just a thought that maybe this Directivo UI will be the same situation as the Motorola Comcast Tivo which has its own custom UI that is different from the series 2 or 3 tivos. That means the UI could be better or worse than the HR10-250.


thought it has been stated that the UI will be the Hr10-250's - in fact the unit will be like a HR10-250 with MPEG4


----------



## DarkSkies

wingrider01 said:


> thought it has been stated that the UI will be the Hr10-250's - in fact the unit will be like a HR10-250 with MPEG4


The HR10-250 interface is antiquated. I could never go back to a world where opening a menu forces me to stop viewing and listening to a program. I love my Picture-in-Graphics on DIRECTV.


----------



## JBernardK

wingrider01 said:


> as much as I hate the tivo unit you are probably 100 percent right - it probably will never be sold, but it will be leased





DarkSkies said:


> The HR10-250 interface is antiquated. I could never go back to a world where opening a menu forces me to stop viewing and listening to a program. I love my Picture-in-Graphics on DIRECTV.


Why do people who hate or have no interest in this box continue to this thread?
Why waste your time? Or are you just trolling?


----------



## wingrider01

JBernardK said:


> Why do people who hate or have no interest in this box continue to this thread?
> Why waste your time? Or are you just trolling?


:lol::lol::lol:

People have opinions, they may not be what you want to hear but they are just as valid..

The comment I made can be pretty much accurate, they will not be sold but leased, deal.

Anytime I am amused it is not a waste of time nor is it trolling


----------



## DarkSkies

JBernardK said:


> Why do people who hate or have no interest in this box continue to this thread?
> Why waste your time? Or are you just trolling?





wingrider01 said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> People have opinions, they may not be what you want to hear but they are just as valid..


What he ^ said... 

Beyond what he said, I'm amused at the "continue" comment. I can't recall the last time I posted in this thread!

Anyway, in my home I have five different means to record TV, with each method having its own interfaces, so you can say I'm into TV and interested in recording methodologies. In the past I had an HR10-250 (and before that an HDVR2), and today one of the ways I can record is with my TiVo Premiere.

Out of my five methods I would rank the TiVo Premiere right in the middle (#3) in terms of features and ease of use -- only my cable DVR (#4) and DVD Recorder (#5) fall behind it. I put my Win 7 Media Center at (#2) and my DIRECTV DVRs at (#1).

I pay attention to this thread because as I say, I'm into TV and I'm into the toys used to watch and record TV. Hearing that the next generation DIRECTV with TiVo DVR will be using the HR10-250 interface, and not even the moderately better TiVo Premiere interface, I stand by my earlier comment. The HR10-250 interface is archaic, and this is a step backwards for me. I can't go back...


----------



## newsposter

wingrider01 said:


> thought it has been stated that the UI will be the Hr10-250's - in fact the unit will be like a HR10-250 with MPEG4


:icon_band luv it and hope it's true..soooo tired of scribbling SL on paper and prefer to have 150 SPs on hand at all times 

hope the drive is big too!


----------



## wingrider01

newsposter said:


> :icon_band luv it and hope it's true..soooo tired of scribbling SL on paper and prefer to have 150 SPs on hand at all times
> 
> hope the drive is big too!


suspect it will have the exact same dirve size that the HR21 has - if I recall correctly that is the one it is being built on, but hta was mentioned a few years ago when this discussion was brand new and hopes where high


----------



## inkahauts

newsposter said:


> :icon_band luv it and hope it's true..soooo tired of scribbling SL on paper and prefer to have 150 SPs on hand at all times
> 
> hope the drive is big too!


Do you have whole home service? I do, and because of it, I could never have any SP limit issues. I have 300 SP available, and more importantly, 12 tuners. I would expect the average person to have 3 tv's, and so they could easily have 6 tuners and 150 SP's available at anytime. Tivo will not have that ability.. They will never have more than 2 tuners available at any given time that can be viewed on any tv.. That's a major draw back. With that said, if you only have one tv, then yeah, tivo definitively has an edge there...


----------



## Dr_J

Did a search for "3D" in this thread and came up with no matches. Does anyone know, or heard anything about, if the TiVo will be 3D-compatible?


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Do you have whole home service? I do, and because of it, I could never have any SP limit issues. I have 300 SP available, and more importantly, 12 tuners. I would expect the average person to have 3 tv's, and so they could easily have 6 tuners and 150 SP's available at anytime. Tivo will not have that ability.. They will never have more than 2 tuners available at any given time that can be viewed on any tv.. That's a major draw back. With that said, if you only have one tv, then yeah, tivo definitively has an edge there...


You've got the same number of HRs that I do, why don't you have 600 SLs as I do? Only have six activated?

Rich


----------



## newsposter

inkahauts said:


> Do you have whole home service? I do, and because of it, I could never have any SP limit issues. I have 300 SP available, and more importantly, 12 tuners. I would expect the average person to have 3 tv's, and so they could easily have 6 tuners and 150 SP's available at anytime. Tivo will not have that ability.. They will never have more than 2 tuners available at any given time that can be viewed on any tv.. That's a major draw back. With that said, if you only have one tv, then yeah, tivo definitively has an edge there...


no need for whole home service so all this 'stuff' everyone talks about isnt necessary for me. I just need a 'new' HDtivo.

i have HDtivo and HR20 stacked and everything watched right there. heck i may keep HDtivo subbed when the new one comes out... for a bit.


----------



## Doug Brott

Dr_J said:


> Did a search for "3D" in this thread and came up with no matches. Does anyone know, or heard anything about, if the TiVo will be 3D-compatible?


Doubt it.


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> Doubt it.


In order to make it non-3D compatible, they'd have to specifically lock it out. You think they'll do that?


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> In order to make it non-3D compatible, they'd have to specifically lock it out. You think they'll do that?


I do


----------



## Sixto

Had a chance to play with a TiVo Premiere today ...

Clicked on the TiVo button ...

Was very impressed with the opening HD screen, thought ok, this looks cool. Space indicator was there, and the current channel was playing in the upper right corner.

Then I noticed that part of the PIG at the top of the screen was chopped off in the upper right. Looked weird.

Then as I bounced around from screen to screen, the interface switched from HD to non-HD, to with-PIG, to not-PIG.

Man, it was very klugey, it was like it was half done, and it's been out for over a year now.

Really was surprised at how unfinished it looked.


----------



## Davenlr

Sixto said:


> Really was surprised at how unfinished it looked.


Yep, I was shocked it was so kludged together myself. In all fairness, you can turn off the HD interface, and use the original SD one, but I expected it to all be HD.

It actually works great, and is quite fast, operations wise. The problem is that it really needs the second core of the processor, and they chose to use FLASH, which apparently will not run using the second processor core. So they disabled the second core, and only have the main operating menu in HD. All the search and setup menus are still SD.

I guess until Adobe makes a dual core version of FLASH, Tivo is stuck with the unfinished U.I.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Sixto said:


> Had a chance to play with a TiVo Premiere today ...
> 
> Clicked on the TiVo button ...
> 
> Was very impressed with the opening HD screen, thought ok, this looks cool. Space indicator was there, and the current channel was playing in the upper right corner.
> 
> Then I noticed that part of the PIG at the top of the screen was chopped off in the upper right. Looked weird.
> 
> Then as I bounced around from screen to screen, the interface switched from HD to non-HD, to with-PIG, to not-PIG.
> 
> Man, it was very klugey, it was like it was half done, and it's been out for over a year now.
> 
> Really was surprised at how unfinished it looked.


Hmm... I don't really think I could go back to no PIG. Usually I set up my recordings while PIGing a recording that I'm not really into giving 100% of my attention to.


----------



## tonyd79

"Davenlr" said:


> Yep, I was shocked it was so kludged together myself. In all fairness, you can turn off the HD interface, and use the original SD one, but I expected it to all be HD.
> 
> It actually works great, and is quite fast, operations wise. The problem is that it really needs the second core of the processor, and they chose to use FLASH, which apparently will not run using the second processor core. So they disabled the second core, and only have the main operating menu in HD. All the search and setup menus are still SD.
> 
> I guess until Adobe makes a dual core version of FLASH, Tivo is stuck with the unfinished U.I.


Wow. Didn't realize that was the reason. That is a shame. It could have been nice. But it makes me keep wondering about decisions TiVo makes and if they have enough resources to make things work completely and well.


----------



## Jeremy W

Comcast and Tivo announced today that they were finally killing the effort to get the Tivo software on Comcast STBs. Why it took this long, I have no idea. Now, they're just going to be jointly marketing the Tivo Premiere. Makes much more sense this way, although it's not an option for DirecTV.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> Comcast and Tivo announced today that they were finally killing the effort to get the Tivo software on Comcast STBs. Why it took this long, I have no idea. Now, they're just going to be jointly marketing the Tivo Premiere. Makes much more sense this way, although it's not an option for DirecTV.


Maybe Comcast was waiting for the dust to settle in the TiVo v. E* case?

The fact TiVo accepted a lump sum deal from E* and agreed to end the old licensing deal with Comcast, seemed to me a recognition that using infringement threat to extract on-going license fees will no longer work.

In the Comcast case, if I understand it correctly, Comcast will let TiVo subs access the Comcast VOD library. Wouldn't this requires the TiVo subs first sub to Comcast service? If so this new agreement sounds like a Comcast deal to have.

What kind of deal TiVo can offer to DirecTV? TiVo subs can't just plug in some card to turn their boxes into DirecTV boxes.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well they could, but not with the current hardware. And it would have to be some special card.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> Well they could, but not with the current hardware. And it would have to be some special card.


And a big dish.


----------



## DarkSkies

Sixto said:


> Had a chance to play with a TiVo Premiere today ...
> 
> [...]
> 
> Really was surprised at how unfinished it looked.





Davenlr said:


> Yep, I was shocked it was so kludged together myself. In all fairness, you can turn off the HD interface, and use the original SD one, but I expected it to all be HD.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I guess until Adobe makes a dual core version of FLASH, Tivo is stuck with the unfinished U.I.





SledgeHammer said:


> Hmm... I don't really think I could go back to no PIG. Usually I set up my recordings while PIGing a recording that I'm not really into giving 100% of my attention to.





DarkSkies said:


> [...]I stand by my earlier comment. The HR10-250 interface is archaic, and this is a step backwards for me. I can't go back...


Yup, that's what I was talking about earlier. Once you have the PIG, it's hard not to have the PIG...


----------



## JBernardK

DarkSkies said:


> Yup, that's what I was talking about earlier. Once you have the PIG, it's hard not to have the PIG...


Unless, of course, you like to record sports events and start watching an hour or so into the game. Then you hate the PIG.


----------



## tonyd79

"JBernardK" said:


> Unless, of course, you like to record sports events and start watching an hour or so into the game. Then you hate the PIG.


You can't not look in the corner?

I don't hate the pig at all. Love the pig. Hate the full screen swap out on old TiVo.


----------



## DarkSkies

JBernardK said:


> Unless, of course, you like to record sports events and start watching an hour or so into the game. Then you hate the PIG.


The cool thing with DIRECTV is that if I turn it on and it's an hour into the game, I can press record to get up to 90 minutes of what I missed (versus 30 on TiVo).  But that's not what you meant ...

I can easily handle a situation where I don't want to see or hear what's happening in real-time while I'm still recording a game:

(1) Tune to a different live channel - background will still keep recording

or (2) Mute system sound right after turning it on and hit PLAYLIST immediately, and don't look at the PIG

I do tend to use one trick often when I'm watching from the Playlist and don't want to see live TV as I go to the next program from my playlist: instead of hitting STOP or deleting the program at the end of playback, I pause the playback, hit LIST, play my next show. At the end of the night I delete everything I viewed directly from the playlist.

To me the ever-present PIG is a great feature, because I love being able to Search, manage recordings, and do other things while still listening to a recording (or even Live TV), but I understand how others may not like it. The good news is there are always workarounds ...


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> Hmm... I don't really think I could go back to no PIG. Usually I set up my recordings while PIGing a recording that I'm not really into giving 100% of my attention to.


That was one of the things I disliked when I switched from TiVos to HRs, now I can't imagine not having it....

Rich


----------



## RReyes23

so any timeline for the new tivo to come out?


----------



## Tom Robertson

RReyes23 said:


> so any timeline for the new tivo to come out?


Officially, no new word.

Unofficial "best guesses" from people who have a clue is "maybe" June/July (and, as always with TiVo, subject to change.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bonscott87

Being mid May already I think June for sure is a pipe dream and even July. If I had to guess it would be fall at the earliest.


----------



## Doug Brott

bonscott87 said:


> Being mid May already I think June for sure is a pipe dream and even July. If I had to guess it would be fall at the earliest.


Wanna take a toke from mine? :grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Wanna take a toke from mine? :grin:


!rolling

Doug's in especially rare form this morning. 

I'd almost never bet against him on these things.


----------



## Rich

Doug Brott said:


> Wanna take a toke from mine? :grin:


If we're ever standing face to face, you might want to ask me that question, you might be surprised....:lol:

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

Hey Doug, by "June / July", are you talking GA? Or are you talking about DTV finally annoucing the thing is "coming soon".

I'm going to say "no way" on June / July for GA. If this thing has hit manafacturing, we would have definitely seen a leaked pic or info by now.

Personally I'm still in the far off / never camp :grin:... no leaks or hard specs or word from DTV / Tivo in 3 years? Even the Pentagon can't keep a secret that long.


----------



## Doug Brott

:shrug: There have already been one or two photos posted if you hunt around. "In Manufacturing" means putting a TiVo labeled bezel on the front of an HR22-100 .. Even for a high tech piece of hardware this isn't rocket science.

The Beta is with TiVo .. I'm not in the Beta .. I get bits and pieces of information here and there which leads to what you see here. You can trust the timing or not. We'll know soon enough.


----------



## Brennok

SledgeHammer said:


> Hey Doug, by "June / July", are you talking GA? Or are you talking about DTV finally annoucing the thing is "coming soon".
> 
> I'm going to say "no way" on June / July for GA. If this thing has hit manafacturing, we would have definitely seen a leaked pic or info by now.
> 
> Personally I'm still in the far off / never camp :grin:... no leaks or hard specs or word from DTV / Tivo in 3 years? Even the Pentagon can't keep a secret that long.


TiVo has always done well keeping things quiet.

People only knew of the Premiere a few months early because someone accidentally shipped a TiVo HD with the quick instruction sheet of the Premiere. Even then we had no idea of what if any difference there would be or if it was just a cost saving measure since it dropped outputs and was smaller. Then the model number showed up in Best Buys computer system about a month or maybe even less than when it was announced.


----------



## cygnusloop

Hmmm....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=192963


----------



## Doug Brott

cygnusloop said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=192963


Not sure if that is the same thing we're talking about here or not.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Not sure if that is the same thing we're talking about here or not.


If it turns out it is, looks like the box is $99 and the TiVO monthly service charge is $5 _in addition_ to the standard $6/month STB fee. Nothing surprising here, IMHO. We knew there was going to be a significantly higher TiVO up-charge, this time around.


----------



## cygnusloop

Doug Brott said:


> Not sure if that is the same thing we're talking about here or not.


Nor am I, but it would be quite a coincidence if it's not, wouldn't you say?

That said, my gut feeling is that that page wasn't supposed to go live at this time, but who knows...


----------



## Doug Brott

When I say I'm not sure .. I truly mean that .. I don't know. This very well could be the first crack in the secrecy armor .. well, except for the stuff I've already pointed out


----------



## Richierich

Looks like maybe they were testing it as a Placeholder and forgot to take it out of Production Mode after the Test.

This has happened before when they Posted something before it was scheduled to be launched and had to pull the Test which somehow had been put into a Production Mode.


----------



## Doug Brott

richierich, that could be true .. would lead right in to the time frame I've been saying for a while now, wouldn't it?


----------



## SledgeHammer

If its $5/month, I suspect most people will pass seeing as it has no MRV / WHDVR, QWERTY, etc .


----------



## Doug Brott

I suspect a lot of folks @ DBSTalk will pass on this .. Not sure about folks with older TiVo's looking to upgrade to HD. Even @ $5/month there will be takers, and if the $99/unit is true, that's a $50 savings right now on the HD-DVR - worth 10 months of TiVo service (rate shown for me is $149 .. MSRP is $199 for HD-DVR).

However, my list of "stuff" in a previous post will give you an indication of what the box will be like. As I said, it's essentially an HR10-250 with MPEG-4 support added. The look and feel will be pretty much the same as what you know and love (or hate - like me).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Although, if they're going to offer it @$99, they might have some takers. Especially if they are not completely up front about the extra charge for monthly service.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> Although, if they're going to offer it @$99, they might have some takers. Especially if they are not completely up front about the extra charge for monthly service.


It's listed as "TiVO service", so I assume a flat $5 per household, no matter how many DirecTiVO's you use. If so, that's actually still a bargain, IMHO. The standard TiVO model is a much higher monthly service charge per receiver, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## cygnusloop

Stuart Sweet said:


> Although, if they're going to offer it @$99, they might have some takers. Especially if they are not completely up front about the extra charge for monthly service.


And, especially if they are not completely up front about its functional shortcomings compared to the HRXX's.


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> It's listed as "TiVO service", so I assume a flat $5 per household, no matter how many DirecTiVO's you use. If so, that's actually still a bargain, IMHO. The standard TiVO model is a much higher monthly service charge per receiver, if I'm not mistaken.


Yep, seems like $5 per household.

For Mom and Pop, who have TiVo SD today, and want to stay the same, they might spring for the $5, especially if the upfront is less then an HR.

Interesting developments today, it may actually see the light of day soon.

Cool, new stuff is always cool, no matter how old that HR22-100 box is. 

Still can't believe they'll ship a box with several years ago technology, but ah well ... it is what it is ...


----------



## Steve

cygnusloop said:


> And, especially if they are not completely up front about its functional shortcomings compared to the HRXX's.


I think as long as the D* CSR's make sure that prospective DirecTiVO owners _don't_ want MRV, the average customer probably won't be sophisticated enough to understand what the other differences may be. Just my .02.


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> I think as long as the D* CSR's make sure that prospective DirecTiVO owners _don't_ want MRV, the average customer probably won't be sophisticated enough to understand what the other differences may be. Just my .02.


With no disrespect to many of DirecTV's 19M+ install base ...  ... I firmly believe that most people have no clue, and don't care.

I have friends, relatives, ... most just use what shows up on the cable or FiOS truck.

And if they hear "TiVo", they might just assume it's better, especially if it costs more.

We might be surprised how well this sells. Or maybe not. But nothing would surprise me.


----------



## Sixto

I joke but I'd pay a few bucks just to play with it for a few weeks, just for the heck of it ... probably wouldn't spring for the $99, but interested none-the-less. 

Ah, maybe not, maybe I'll just read what you guys say about it.


----------



## Sixto

News spreads fast:http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-05/new-directv-tivo-nears-launch-99​


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> News spreads fast:http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-05/new-directv-tivo-nears-launch-99​


Behold the power of the Internet


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> richierich, that could be true .. would lead right in to the time frame I've been saying for a while now, wouldn't it?


Yes It Would Doug!!!

Well, I would Never Bet against you with your Infinite Knowledgebase and Wisdom so I would Bet that it will be sometime in July, 2011!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

Now back to our regularly scheduled anticipation. Seems this "outing" was some sort of mistake. I do not believe we can rely on the information for accuracy.


----------



## Sixto

It does seem to indicate that soon may actually be soon.

If someone is working on screens, or order processes, that's a good thing for those interested, and may indicate that it may become real in the not so distant future.

Or they could have just listened to Doug's June/July comments.


----------



## ATARI

I don't think it is vaporware anymore.

Maybe just obsoleteware.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> However, my list of "stuff" in a previous post will give you an indication of what the box will be like. As I said, it's essentially an HR10-250 with MPEG-4 support added. The look and feel will be pretty much the same as what you know and love (or hate - like me).


Actually, I always thought the HR10-250 is *the* prettiest box DTV ever put out.

I have a couple of the Sony A-5x and B-5x boxes as well. Also had a Sony SAT-T60... didn't really care for the looks of the SAT-T60 and the A-5x/B-5x were plain looking.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Heres a question... will DTV wave the $5/month fee if you have the old Tivo lifetime? ... I used to have Tivo lifetime, but mysteriously DTV "lost it" somehow and I didn't have any paperwork to back up "my story" .


----------



## Richierich

SledgeHammer said:


> Actually, I always thought the HR10-250 is *the* prettiest box DTV ever put out.


I have a couple of Pretty HR10-250s if you like them alot and I'm sure I would sell them pretty cheap!!! :lol:


----------



## SledgeHammer

richierich said:


> I have a couple of Pretty HR10-250s if you like them alot and I'm sure I would sell them pretty cheap!!! :lol:


Haha... I still have one sitting in my closet too. It really was a great looking box IMO. I just couldn't live without some of the features that the HR2x boxes have (like PIG)... DLB has nothing on PIG . No PIG = deal breaker for me.


----------



## J Blow

In 96 I had one of the first generation Sony. I bought that (sadly for $1000 and as a self install) over the RCA because it had a transparent menu instead of the picture in the guide....wait, the first RCA might not have even had the picture in the guide but just totally killed the sound and all when you hit the guide. You could change the transparency of the menu, too. I liked that the picture stayed full screen a lot better than it shrinking to the guide. I don't know why that isn't an option with today's technology.

Oh ya, I also bought the Sony because it had the dual LNB so I could add a multiswitch. It's funny to think that most people I knew that bought the early RCA saved a few bucks and got the single output....and later put up another dish for another TV. Crazy to think now.


----------



## ejjames

Any predictions as to availability? Will the average Joe be ale to get one as soon as it shows up on the web site?

(I know it won't be like the 10-250, man those were some crazy days!)


----------



## Jeremy W

ejjames said:


> Any predictions as to availability?


Doug says June/July.


----------



## Doug Brott

Doug probably won't be saying that again ...


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> Doug probably won't be saying that again ...


Because that timeframe didn't include the month of May?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Jeremy W said:


> Because that timeframe didn't include the month of May?


Because it got delayed again.


----------



## Shades228

SledgeHammer said:


> Because it got delayed again.


It can't really be more delayed at this point. They have said late 2011 so technically they could release it "early" if it was in Sept-Oct.

That still doesn't change what I think though.


----------



## inkahauts

I am going to go out on a limb now and say it will be 5 PER box, and no directv dvr monthly fee per household. That way it will be cheaper for the first box, but more if you have 2 or more...

I have no real clue, that's just my guess. 

I don't think they signed a deal that went away from their per box fees. If they did, then I expect it will be the directv 7 and the tivo 5 per household... (both will include the 5 per month lease fee)


----------



## ejjames

If my whole phrase would have been quoted you'll see I was asking about availability of units, not when it will be released.


----------



## Rich

Doug Brott said:


> Doug probably won't be saying that again ...


Uh oh.

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> Uh oh.


I bet we'll catch Bin Laden before this thing ever gets out... Oh... wait...

You know, a couple of weeks ago, I would have called both of those as "never"... now I'm only calling the Tivo as "never" , but Duke Nuke 'Em Forever vs. Tivo... thats still up in the air.

$99 certainly is a bit more appealing then $199 on the up front costs, but an extra $5 a month (which may even be per box) just doesn't make sense. Even if it was $5 per household, you'd break even on the DTV box after 20 months and then its pure savings from there on out... not to mention you get a much better box with DTV.


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> an extra $5 a month (which may even be per box) just doesn't make sense.


Tivo has to make money somehow, and DirecTV certainly isn't giving them a cut of their DVR fee. So there has to be a separate fee.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Jeremy W said:


> Tivo has to make money somehow, and DirecTV certainly isn't giving them a cut of their DVR fee. So there has to be a separate fee.


Yeah, I get that part . I mean, I can't imagine anybody wanting to pay $5 extra / month for a box with 50% of the functionality of the cheaper box. Then again, I recently found a checking account that gives you 4.09% APY and I couldn't convince any of my friends / family to switch out of the 0.08% APY from Bank Of America, etc. so I guess theres always people out there willing to pay more for less :sure:.


----------



## Beerstalker

Yep I'm betting you still have to pay DirecTV $7 for DVR service per account, $6 mirror fee per receiver, and then $5 to TIVO for each TIVO unit. So if you had 3 TIVO units you would be paying $15/month more than someone with 3 HR2x.

TIVO charges per box if you have more than one for cable or antenna service don't they? I was thinking it was something like $20/month for the first box and $10/month for every additional box after that.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Beerstalker said:


> Yep I'm betting you still have to pay DirecTV $7 for DVR service per account, $6 mirror fee per receiver, and then $5 to TIVO for each TIVO unit. So if you had 3 TIVO units you would be paying $15/month more than someone with 3 HR2x.
> 
> TIVO charges per box if you have more than one for cable or antenna service don't they? I was thinking it was something like $20/month for the first box and $10/month for every additional box after that.


I think you paid $5 ALL DirecTivo boxes in your house. I don't think it was per box back then, but maybe I'm mistaken. If you have one for DTV and one for cable, thats definitely seperate.


----------



## Doug Brott

Generally "service" fees have covered the entire account

DVR "service"
Whole Home DVR "service"
HD "service"

If there is in fact a TiVo Service as suggested by the preliminary web page, "service" is probably for the entire account as well. But remember, I don't think we can really take much value in what we saw simply because of the 'FPO' or "for placement only" notification on the page. Any or all of the details could change before we see this thing hit the shelves.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> Generally "service" fees have covered the entire account
> 
> DVR "service"
> Whole Home DVR "service"
> HD "service"
> 
> If there is in fact a TiVo Service as suggested by the preliminary web page, "service" is probably for the entire account as well. But remember, I don't think we can really take much value in what we saw simply because of the 'FPO' or "for placement only" notification on the page. Any or all of the details could change *if* we see this thing hit the shelves.


Fixed .


----------



## JBernardK

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, I get that part . I mean, I can't imagine anybody wanting to pay $5 extra / month for a box with 50% of the functionality of the cheaper box. Then again, I recently found a checking account that gives you 4.09% APY and I couldn't convince any of my friends / family to switch out of the 0.08% APY from Bank Of America, etc. so I guess theres always people out there willing to pay more for less :sure:.


That's your take, but many find the DTV DVR to be 50% of the functionality of the TiVo.


----------



## fasTLane

JBernardK said:


> That's your take, but many find the DTV DVR to be 50% of the functionality of the TiVo.


Quite a few are in agreement.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JBernardK said:


> That's your take, but many find the DTV DVR to be 50% of the functionality of the TiVo.


That was definitely true when the HR2x's first came out and they were missing key features like DLB, etc. I think a lot of people got a bad first impression of the HR2x's and refused to give it a second look after it evolved .

Also, keep in mind that the new DirecTivo will be a STRIPPED down version... As far as we know... it will *not* have MRV / WHDVR, no QWERTY remote, no Tivo2Go, no PIG (program in guide), etc.

Not trying to argue here, but what functionality do you find missing in the HR2x's that you consider to be 50% of the Tivo box? Just keep in mind, you can not compare the Hr2x to the Tivo Premiere since you aren't going to be getting that... you are going to get an HR10-250 with OTA support removed and MPEG4 support added. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## DarkSkies

Beerstalker said:


> Yep I'm betting you still have to pay DirecTV $7 for DVR service per account, $6 mirror fee per receiver, and then $5 to TIVO for each TIVO unit.


:lol:
I wonder how far we are from a new fee structure, modeled after the 12 days of Christmas?

12 dollar HBO Premium Fee
11 dollar Additional Premium Fee
10 dollar HD Access fee
9
8
7 dollar DVR fee
6 dollar per receiver fee (or protection plan fee, rounded)
5 dollar T...i....V...o fee! (or HD Extra Pack, rounded)
4
3 dollar MRV fee
2
1

:lol:


----------



## Steve

Well done! :lol:



DarkSkies said:


> :lol:
> I wonder how far we are from a new fee structure, modeled after the 12 days of Christmas?
> 
> 12 dollar HBO Premium Fee
> 11 dollar Additional Premium Fee
> 10 dollar HD Access fee
> 9
> 8
> 7 dollar DVR fee
> 6 dollar per receiver fee (or protection plan fee, rounded)
> 5 dollar T...i....V...o fee! (or HD Extra Pack, rounded)
> 4
> 3 dollar MRV fee
> 2
> 1
> 
> :lol:


----------



## fasTLane

SledgeHammer said:


> ... you are going to get an HR10-250 with OTA support removed and MPEG4 support added. Nothing more, nothing less.


We'll see...


----------



## SledgeHammer

DarkSkies said:


> :lol:
> I wonder how far we are from a new fee structure, modeled after the 12 days of Christmas?
> 
> 12 dollar HBO Premium Fee
> 11 dollar Additional Premium Fee
> 10 dollar HD Access fee
> 9
> 8
> 7 dollar DVR fee
> 6 dollar per receiver fee (or protection plan fee, rounded)
> 5 dollar T...i....V...o fee! (or HD Extra Pack, rounded)
> 4
> 3 dollar MRV fee
> 2
> 1
> 
> :lol:


next rate hike is coming in Feb.


----------



## Shades228

fasTLane said:


> We'll see...


Probably not and if you do you'll just be disappointed.


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> .. you are going to get an HR10-250 with OTA support removed and MPEG4 support added. Nothing more, nothing less.


I fully expect the new TiVo to have OTA with the AM21 add-on box.


----------



## SledgeHammer

fasTLane said:


> We'll see...


That wasn't a guess my friend... thats already well known knowledge on dbstalk .


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> I fully expect the new TiVo to have OTA with the AM21 add-on box.


Yeah, I meant it won't have built in OTA since DTV discovered people are willing to pay extra for it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Actually, OTA wasn't separated out to gain profit. In fact DIRECTV probably loses money on every AM21. They just don't lose as much as if they put OTA hardware in every DVR, when 97% of people won't use it.


----------



## newsposter

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, I get that part . I mean, I can't imagine anybody wanting to pay $5 extra / month for a box with 50% of the functionality of the cheaper box. Then again, I recently found a checking account that gives you 4.09% APY and I couldn't convince any of my friends / family to switch out of the 0.08% APY from Bank Of America, etc. so I guess theres always people out there willing to pay more for less :sure:.


sometime less is better and more isnt always better. i'd actually pay a small fee for more SL on the hr20..thats what is important to me. i dont need anything else. so stop trying to imagine me 

i'm 1 of 1 billion i realize though. :grin:


----------



## sigma1914

newsposter said:


> sometime less is better and more isnt always better. i'd actually pay a small fee for more SL on the hr20..thats what is important to me. i dont need anything else. so stop trying to imagine me
> 
> i'm 1 of 1 billion i realize though. :grin:


Would you pay $9/month more (Assuming you pay $6 now in lease fees.) for 100 more SL? I notice you have only 1 HR2x...Add 2 HR2x (replacing your obsolete HR10 with 1) giving you 3 HR2x equaling 150 SL and only costing $12 in lease fees and $3 for MRV.


----------



## tonyd79

"sigma1914" said:


> Would you pay $9/month more (Assuming you pay $6 now in lease fees.) for 100 more SL? I notice you have only 1 HR2x...Add 2 HR2x (replacing your obsolete HR10 with 1) giving you 3 HR2x equaling 150 SL and only costing $12 in lease fees and $3 for MRV.


Too logical. People will pay more for more SL but there is already a way to do so....,,


----------



## SledgeHammer

newsposter said:


> sometime less is better and more isnt always better. i'd actually pay a small fee for more SL on the hr20..thats what is important to me. i dont need anything else. so stop trying to imagine me
> 
> i'm 1 of 1 billion i realize though. :grin:


You are going to be paying at least $99 + $5/month extra for some more SLs .


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> Too logical. People will pay more for more SL but there is already a way to do so....,,


On the same box? I know of the "MRV workaround", but what about for people who only have one box / one tv?


----------



## Steve

Even with one TV, two HR's + MRV will give you 100 SL's, up to 200 hours of HD storage and the ability to record up to 4 simultaneous shows for an extra $9/month. Not too bad, IMHO.


----------



## tonyd79

"SledgeHammer" said:


> On the same box? I know of the "MRV workaround", but what about for people who only have one box / one tv?


Piffle. I have three DVRs on one tv with one on another.


----------



## sigma1914

Steve said:


> Even with one TV, two HR's + MRV will give you 100 SL's, up to 200 hours of HD storage and the ability to record up to 4 simultaneous shows for an extra $9/month. Not too bad, IMHO.


Actually, if it's a 1 TV home with 2 HRs, then it's only $3 MRV fee. Two HRs is only $6 since one's free. Heck, you don't even need MRV with that.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Steve said:


> Even with one TV, two HR's + MRV will give you 100 SL's, up to 200 hours of HD storage and the ability to record up to 4 simultaneous shows for an extra $9/month. Not too bad, IMHO.


Plus $199 for the box, plus $100 for the kit, plus any additional parts / cost you might have: ethernet bridges, cabling, etc.


----------



## Steve

sigma1914 said:


> Actually, if it's a 1 TV home with 2 HRs, then it's only $3 MRV fee. Two HRs is only $6 since one's free. Heck, you don't even need MRV with that.


Ya. I was thinkin' $9 more than one DVR... $6 for the second DVR and $3 for MRV. You're right about MRV, tho. If you don't mind switching inputs to watch, you can save $3/month and the MRV install charge.


----------



## SledgeHammer

If you have 2 or 3 DVRs on one TV, why even bother with MRV? Just switch inputs.


----------



## sigma1914

SledgeHammer said:


> Plus $199 for the box, plus $100 for the kit, plus any additional parts / cost you might have: ethernet bridges, cabling, etc.


All of which can be had much cheaper.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I say if a person wants TIVO why try to sell him against it?


----------



## Steve

I WANT MORE said:


> I say if a person wants TIVO why try to sell him against it?


Agree. I think many of us who have been living with MRV now could never go back to the old way, and that may be coloring our thinking somewhat.


----------



## sigma1914

I WANT MORE said:


> I say if a person wants TIVO why try to sell him against it?


We're just discussing options is all.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I have TIVO with cable. I think it's fine. I also have a couple of HR24s. The 24s are also fine. If I had to base my preference on the other models of HRs that I have it would be TIVO in a landslide. JMHO


Edit: I also had a 10-250 before they became obsolete and I enjoyed it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I WANT MORE said:


> I have TIVO with cable. I think it's fine. I also have a couple of HR24s. The 24s are also fine. If I had to base my preference on the other models of HRs that I have it would be TIVO in a landslide. JMHO


You're opinion is welcomed and respected. Thanks for the polite note.

I'd be curious how your opinion might change in the future. But we'll talk about that then. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Shades228

He's also comparing stand alone TiVo's which are much different than the DIRECTV version.


----------



## Jeremy W

I WANT MORE said:


> If I had to base my preference on the other models of HRs that I have it would be TIVO in a landslide. JMHO


The new DirecTivo is going to be a crippled version of the Tivo you have.


----------



## DarkSkies

If someone told me they wanted to get a TiVo I'd ask them how familiar they are with TiVo and competitive offerings, and then I'd ask them what was most important to them, and then I'd tell them what I know of TiVo and DIRECTV and Cablevision (options in my area) and answer any questions they asked.


----------



## sigma1914

Swanni swoops in! http://www.tvpredictions.com/dtivo051311.htm


----------



## bonscott87

fasTLane said:


> We'll see...


I guess we will. And since the CEO of Tivo has stated in a more then one interview that's all it's going to be I guess you'll be wrong.


----------



## Rich

Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually, OTA wasn't separated out to gain profit. In fact DIRECTV probably loses money on every AM21. They just don't lose as much as if they put OTA hardware in every DVR, when 97% of people won't use it.


Agreed. I can get about 55 station OTA, I live LOS from NYC and I don't bother with it. Another good business decision, altho I can understand how it could infuriate a few people, the majority of users don't care that much about it.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> On the same box? I know of the "MRV workaround", but what about for people who only have one box / one tv?


To only have one HR is so...foolish. In so many ways. If it's an economical reason I can understand it. But you lose so much with only one. For one thing, having a couple HRs makes troubleshooting so much easier.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Steve said:


> Ya. I was thinkin' $9 more than one DVR... $6 for the second DVR and $3 for MRV. You're right about MRV, tho. If you don't mind switching inputs to watch, you can save $3/month and the MRV install charge.


I still think we should assume a certain level of affluence in our little corner of the world. I know some folks are hurting in this economy, but I don't think the majority of the members are. And D* just keep adding subs, so...

Rich


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> If you have 2 or 3 DVRs on one TV, why even bother with MRV? Just switch inputs.


True statement.

Rich


----------



## Rich

sigma1914 said:


> Swanni swoops in! http://www.tvpredictions.com/dtivo051311.htm


He's even starting to use member's User Names in his column. After all the arguments I've had with him, I kinda doubt he'll use me as a reference....:lol:

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> To only have one HR is so...foolish. In so many ways. If it's an economical reason I can understand it. But you lose so much with only one. For one thing, having a couple HRs makes troubleshooting so much easier.
> 
> Rich


I only have one TV and one HR20-100. I'm not hurting for money (although I'm not rich by a long shot either lol), its just that my mentality about money is that I want to get bang for my buck. I have Total Choice+ (grandfathered) and I'm already at the point where I feel I'm not getting enough value for the cost. I have long stopped ordering PPVs after they went above $3.99 and other much cheaper alternatives came out.

I have ZERO interest in paying an extra $5 to $8 / month just to get a few more SLs.

In fact, you know how many SLs I use now? NONE. I don't even use that feature. I just don't trust it. My parents use a similar feature on their DVR and they always complain about how it misses new episodes or records repeats.

When I'm watching something I'm not really 100% into, I just PIG and use the TODO list and History to View Upcoming Episodes and hit the record button. Takes me all of 5 minutes.


----------



## Shades228

SledgeHammer said:


> I only have one TV and one HR20-100. I'm not hurting for money (although I'm not rich by a long shot either lol), its just that my mentality about money is that I want to get bang for my buck. I have Total Choice+ (grandfathered) and I'm already at the point where I feel I'm not getting enough value for the cost. I have long stopped ordering PPVs after they went above $3.99 and other much cheaper alternatives came out.
> 
> I have ZERO interest in paying an extra $5 to $8 / month just to get a few more SLs.
> 
> In fact, you know how many SLs I use now? NONE. I don't even use that feature. I just don't trust it. My parents use a similar feature on their DVR and they always complain about how it misses new episodes or records repeats.
> 
> When I'm watching something I'm not really 100% into, I just PIG and use the TODO list and History to View Upcoming Episodes and hit the record button. Takes me all of 5 minutes.


I can think of 2 times a SL hasn't recorded when it should have due to a DIRECTV issue rather than an incorrect guide issue, which won't fix how you do it either.


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> When I'm watching something I'm not really 100% into, I just PIG and use the TODO list and History to View Upcoming Episodes and hit the record button. Takes me all of 5 minutes.


I see why you list your location as hell. Babysitting a DVR like that would make me feel like I was in hell too. The HR2x is reliable, I don't know what you're so worried about.


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> I only have one TV and one HR20-100. I'm not hurting for money (although I'm not rich by a long shot either lol), its just that my mentality about money is that I want to get bang for my buck. I have Total Choice+ (grandfathered) and I'm already at the point where I feel I'm not getting enough value for the cost. I have long stopped ordering PPVs after they went above $3.99 and other much cheaper alternatives came out.
> 
> I have ZERO interest in paying an extra $5 to $8 / month just to get a few more SLs.


Not only do you get 50 more SLs, you also get two more tuners. And you get one of the best troubleshooting tools you can find if that 20-100 starts acting up.



> In fact, you know how many SLs I use now? NONE. I don't even use that feature. I just don't trust it. My parents use a similar feature on their DVR and they always complain about how it misses new episodes or records repeats.


I have no idea how many SLs I am using at this time. Nor do I care. What I care about is the fact that I NEVER miss an episode of a show unless the network doesn't broadcast it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Series Link option for recording if you set them correctly.

I've read your posts and I know you're a smart guy. Just consider this: Most of us on the forum that have HRs use the SL method of recording.

There are a lot of folks on this forum and we all have different personalities and go about posting in different ways, but you won't find many stupid folks here.

Try the SLs, once you get how to program the shows you'll see how simple and dependable the SLs are. Give it a shot, what do you have to lose, a paradigm? 

Rich


----------



## Tubaman-Z

I have 50 SLs (max) and several of them are along the line of:

AANY PAWN PICKERS RESTORATION CCHAN 269

to allow for greater "efficiency" in use of the SLs. This works great as long as you are OK with those shows all having the same relative priority vs. other SLs.


----------



## Rich

Tubaman-Z said:


> I have 50 SLs (max) and several of them are along the line of:
> 
> AANY PAWN PICKERS RESTORATION CCHAN 269
> 
> to allow for greater "efficiency" in use of the SLs. This works great as long as you are OK with those shows all having the same relative priority vs. other SLs.


Isn't that a Boolean search term? Do they count as SLs? How does that work, always meant to ask someone and here we are....:lol:

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

rich584 said:


> I have no idea how many SLs I am using at this time. Nor do I care. What I care about is the fact that I NEVER miss an episode of a show unless the network doesn't broadcast it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Series Link option for recording if you set them correctly.


Lol, yeah, I know I'm in the total minority of people who don't use SLs .

Another reason I do it by hand that I didn't mention before is that sometimes I want to watch repeats and sometimes I don't. Even for the same show. And sometimes my priorities shift.

For example, I'd NEVER want to see a repeat of Ax Men, Pawn Stars, American Pickers, American Restoration, etc... but I'd sometimes want to watch a repeat of Big Bang Theory and Two And A Half Men depending on the episode.

So, I guess SL's would work ok for shows where I only want new episodes, but for the shows where I sometimes want repeats too, I'd have to record all episodes and then go through and delete ones I don't want vs. just not recording them in the first place. Almost the same thing .

To be honest, I think I watch way too much TV and I don't think I've ever ran into a situation where I had 3+ MUST SEE shows on at the same time. Usually when there are 3+ shows on at the same time, at least one of them is on cable, so I know it'll be re-aired 50 other times.

I also employ other logic sometimes that I don't think SLs can do... sometimes if I do have a conflict, I'll pick show A and sometimes I'll pick show B. No real reason behind it, just depends on my mood.

I do remember seeing posts on here where people said SLs aren't picking up episodes and my parents have the same problem sometimes. Thats why I haven't gotten around to trusting them .


----------



## tonyd79

"SledgeHammer" said:


> I only have one TV and one HR20-100. I'm not hurting for money (although I'm not rich by a long shot either lol), its just that my mentality about money is that I want to get bang for my buck. I have Total Choice+ (grandfathered) and I'm already at the point where I feel I'm not getting enough value for the cost. I have long stopped ordering PPVs after they went above $3.99 and other much cheaper alternatives came out.
> 
> I have ZERO interest in paying an extra $5 to $8 / month just to get a few more SLs.
> 
> In fact, you know how many SLs I use now? NONE. I don't even use that feature. I just don't trust it. My parents use a similar feature on their DVR and they always complain about how it misses new episodes or records repeats.
> 
> When I'm watching something I'm not really 100% into, I just PIG and use the TODO list and History to View Upcoming Episodes and hit the record button. Takes me all of 5 minutes.


If the show moves your method is sure to not catch the change. SLs work very well.


----------



## Steve

rich584 said:


> Isn't that a Boolean search term? Do they count as SLs?


It counts as one SL, but in this case, records up to 3 different shows (into the same PLAYLIST folder, named for the search). It's a work-around to the 50 limit.

If you take it to the extreme, *AANY bang csi molly half ncis minds TTITLE CCHAN 2 & Show Types, First Run* will record up to 9 NY CBS shows a week into the same folder, but use up only one SL. Searches are limited to 50 characters total (before the *&*, which is my shortcut for the next search screen).


----------



## Shades228

SledgeHammer said:


> Lol, yeah, I know I'm in the total minority of people who don't use SLs .
> 
> Another reason I do it by hand that I didn't mention before is that sometimes I want to watch repeats and sometimes I don't. Even for the same show. And sometimes my priorities shift.
> 
> For example, I'd NEVER want to see a repeat of Ax Men, Pawn Stars, American Pickers, American Restoration, etc... but I'd sometimes want to watch a repeat of Big Bang Theory and Two And A Half Men depending on the episode.
> 
> So, I guess SL's would work ok for shows where I only want new episodes, but for the shows where I sometimes want repeats too, I'd have to record all episodes and then go through and delete ones I don't want vs. just not recording them in the first place. Almost the same thing .
> 
> To be honest, I think I watch way too much TV and I don't think I've ever ran into a situation where I had 3+ MUST SEE shows on at the same time. Usually when there are 3+ shows on at the same time, at least one of them is on cable, so I know it'll be re-aired 50 other times.
> 
> I also employ other logic sometimes that I don't think SLs can do... sometimes if I do have a conflict, I'll pick show A and sometimes I'll pick show B. No real reason behind it, just depends on my mood.
> 
> I do remember seeing posts on here where people said SLs aren't picking up episodes and my parents have the same problem sometimes. Thats why I haven't gotten around to trusting them .


You can setup recording options per SL. So the ones you never want a repeat you can choose first run only. The other ones you could choose all and delete the ones you don't want. Priority only matters if you have a conflict.


----------



## Doug Brott

Maybe it's time to get back to the TiVo. :backtotop


----------



## tonyd79

"Doug Brott" said:


> Maybe it's time to get back to the TiVo.


That is what directv is trying to do. Taking a while.


----------



## bobcamp1

Tubaman-Z said:


> I have 50 SLs (max) and several of them are along the line of:
> 
> AANY PAWN PICKERS RESTORATION CCHAN 269
> 
> to allow for greater "efficiency" in use of the SLs. This works great as long as you are OK with those shows all having the same relative priority vs. other SLs.


LOL, that's works great if you have an engineering degree. I can't imagine the average user setting that up. But I can't imagine the average user would have more than 50 season passes.


----------



## bobcamp1

rich584 said:


> To only have one HR is so...foolish. In so many ways. If it's an economical reason I can understand it. But you lose so much with only one. For one thing, having a couple HRs makes troubleshooting so much easier.
> 
> Rich


So should I buy two new identical cars as well? Should I buy two of everything?

I pay D* to give me a reliable system. It's why I lease most of the equipment. It's why I agree to pay for service, even though it's fairly expensive. It's not really my job to troubleshoot someone else's equipment.

Plus, isn't the concept of a Whole Home DVR to reduce the number of DVRs in the home? (That's actually one of Tivo's problems. They don't have a simple client solution, and the CCI bytes often prohibit transfers.)


----------



## tonyd79

"bobcamp1" said:


> So should I buy two new identical cars as well? Should I buy two of everything?
> 
> I pay D* to give me a reliable system. It's why I lease most of the equipment. It's why I agree to pay for service, even though it's fairly expensive. It's not really my job to troubleshoot someone else's equipment.
> 
> Plus, isn't the concept of a Whole Home DVR to reduce the number of DVRs in the home? (That's actually one of Tivo's problems. They don't have a simple client solution, and the CCI bytes often prohibit transfers.)


Two DVRs gives you four tuners, more disk capacity as well as the extra SLs.

Two car analogy makes sense if you need the capacity. Driver conflicts. Need more places for more people.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bobcamp1 said:


> So should I buy two new identical cars as well? Should I buy two of everything?
> 
> I pay D* to give me a reliable system. It's why I lease most of the equipment. It's why I agree to pay for service, even though it's fairly expensive. It's not really my job to troubleshoot someone else's equipment.
> 
> Plus, isn't the concept of a Whole Home DVR to reduce the number of DVRs in the home? (That's actually one of Tivo's problems. They don't have a simple client solution, and the CCI bytes often prohibit transfers.)


There are many reasons to have more than one DVR. It may make sense for some people and not so much for others.

In my case I have two DVR's in the living room because it solves the conflicts that popup with that dang ±1 minute scheduling the networks are using. I swear they make a show run time a minute over just mess with DVR's.

Mike


----------



## jal

How much more in electricity does it cost to run an HR2X vs. an H2x?


----------



## Steve

Mike Bertelson said:


> There are many reasons to have more than one DVR. It may make sense for some people and not so much for others.
> 
> In my case I have two DVR's in the living room because it solves the conflicts that popup with that dang ±1 minute scheduling the networks are using. I swear they make a show run time a minute over just mess with DVR's.


Agree. The HR's scheduler does a good job of keeping consecutive recordings on the same channel on the same tuner. If you divvy up your SL's by channel on two different DVR's, you increase your odds of a recording being automatically "padded" before and after.

I don't have two HR's hooked-up to the same display, but thanks to MRV, I spread our SL's across three DVR's, and we can watch anything anywhere. One records CBS and NBC. The second FOX and ABC. The third, everything else.


----------



## Doug Brott

OK guys .. I'lll try again ..

THIS IS THE TIVO THREAD .. 

Let's move away from talking about the HR2x features as if this where an HR2x thread.

Thanks.

:backtotop


----------



## jal

Doug: You're right. I'm just bored, waiting for some news on the new Directivo. Can you cure a boring Sunday morning by giving us a few more tid bits of info? Otherwise, I might have to go back ot watching TV!


----------



## fasTLane

Thanks again, Super Moderator.


----------



## Doug Brott

jal said:


> Doug: You're right. I'm just bored, waiting for some news on the new Directivo. Can you cure a boring Sunday morning by giving us a few more tid bits of info? Otherwise, I might have to go back ot watching TV!


Yeah, it will be after July now ..

Other than that .. seriously, it's an HR10-250 with support for MPEG4. It won't be more than that .. but it really won't be less than that either.

I really don't know what the costs will be as they haven't been announced .. The web page folks ordered from was a mistake, so pretty much all of the information could be a mistake.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> OK guys .. I'lll try again ..
> 
> THIS IS THE TIVO THREAD ..
> 
> Let's move away from talking about the HR2x features as if this where an HR2x thread.


I'll desist.  Was just trying to help folks who may still be on the fence about waiting for TiVO or going HR now instead.


----------



## fasTLane

Doug Brott said:


> .. seriously, it's an HR10-250 with support for MPEG4. It won't be more than that .. but it really won't be less than that either.


Just how much can you know about this?

If it is like you say, I will jump on it like a chicken on a Junebug. :righton:


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> Yeah, it will be after July now ..


Good thing I stuck with "never" even in the face of your strong June/July prediction!


----------



## Jeremy W

fasTLane said:


> Just how much can you know about this?


Ummm, quite a bit...

Although he's still wrong in saying that it's ever going to be released.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> Although he's still wrong in saying that it's ever going to be released.


Dang moving targets ..


----------



## newsposter

Doug Brott said:


> Other than that .. seriously, it's an HR10-250 with support for MPEG4. It won't be more than that .. but it really won't be less than that either.


oh i hate to be teased so bad...getting exactly what i want 3 years later than i want it  i'm still undecided about unsubbing the hdtivo when the new HDtivo comes out. i just hope the drive is large and the fans quiet..this weakness fan was so loud


----------



## Doug Brott

newsposter said:


> oh i hate to be teased so bad...getting exactly what i want 3 years later than i want it  i'm still undecided about unsubbing the hdtivo when the new HDtivo comes out. i just hope the drive is large and the fans quiet..this weakness fan was so loud


Other than I suspect it's a 500GB drive (I don't know for sure), it should sound pretty much the same as an HR22-100 since that's the platform it will be using.


----------



## Jeremy W

newsposter said:


> oh i hate to be teased so bad...getting exactly what i want 3 years later than i want it


Three years later? DirecTV has been broadcasting in MPEG4 for about five years now.


----------



## newsposter

Jeremy W said:


> Three years later? DirecTV has been broadcasting in MPEG4 for about five years now.


when you have such a dependable hdtivo, time just flies!


----------



## SledgeHammer

newsposter said:


> when you have such a dependable hdtivo, time just flies!


Well, yeah... when you have a box that can't recieve any HD channels, theres not much that can go wrong with it .


----------



## tonyd79

"SledgeHammer" said:


> Well, yeah... when you have a box that can't recieve any HD channels, theres not much that can go wrong with it .


Or do much else either. No VOD. No MRV.


----------



## DarkSkies

Doug Brott said:


> Yeah, it will be after July now ..
> 
> Other than that .. seriously, it's an HR10-250 with support for MPEG4. It won't be more than that .. but it really won't be less than that either.
> 
> I really don't know what the costs will be as they haven't been announced .. The web page folks ordered from was a mistake, so pretty much all of the information could be a mistake.





Doug Brott said:


> Other than I suspect it's a 500GB drive (I don't know for sure), it should sound pretty much the same as an HR22-100 since that's the platform it will be using.


If I'm not mistaken, there was no eSATA support in the HR10-250, so I'd imagine this still holds true in the MPEG4 solution? If so, customers are stuck with the 500GB drive with a non-trivial task ahead of them if they wanted to put in a replacement drive on their new leased MPEG4 TiVo receiver...

Welcome back to 2005 folks!


----------



## Jeremy W

DarkSkies said:


> If I'm not mistaken, there was no eSATA support in the HR10-250, so I'd imagine this still holds true in the MPEG4 solution?


Since the new DirecTivo is based on the HR22, which does support eSATA, I wouldn't be surprised if the DirecTivo also supported it. However, I also wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.


----------



## fasTLane

Only checking these forums because Direct pulled the HD content that was offered when we bought the box in '05. If it still worked today as advertised then, we could rock along just fine. Thankfully, the OTA-HD is excellent.


----------



## ndole

fasTLane said:


> Only checking these forums because *Direct pulled the HD content that was offered when we bought the box in '05*. If it still worked today as advertised then, we could rock along just fine. Thankfully, the OTA-HD is excellent.


If you were still using the HD content that they offered then? That's like 4 Channels right? :lol:


----------



## fasTLane

ndole_mbnd said:


> If you were still using the HD content that they offered then? That's like 4 Channels right? :lol:


Actually HBO HD, Showtime HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN HD, Universal HD, Discovery HD Theater and TNT HD. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## DarkSkies

Jeremy W said:


> Since the new DirecTivo is based on the HR22, which does support eSATA, I wouldn't be surprised if the DirecTivo also supported it. However, I also wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.


I was thinking it would be a software restriction, rather than hardware, since per Doug's comments it seems the new box will just be what was on the HR10-250 with the addition of support for MPEG4. You are right, though. No way to know which way this will go.


----------



## Doug Brott

The hardware in the HR22-100 only supports a single drive active at a time. I doubt the THR22-100 is different in that regard. So, while the TiVo might support an external drive as a replacement to the internal one, I certainly wouldn't expect it to provide space in addition to the internal one.

Honestly, though with so many other things to get right, I would not be shocked if the eSATA port were not usable .. Heck, it might not even have an eSATA port.


----------



## bonscott87

fasTLane said:


> Only checking these forums because Direct pulled the HD content that was offered when we bought the box in '05.


Which would be why I never bought an HR10-250. Since we knew in 2004 that DirecTV was moving to MPEG4 for HD and the HR10-250 didn't support it (nor could see the 2 new sat slots), why would I pay hundreds for something that was already obsolete?


----------



## Tom Robertson

eSata was just coming into existence as the Series II (the HR10-250) was being designed. It used standard IDE drives internally.

In theory, TiVo's software "could" more easily utilize two drives than the HR2x family software--but the hardware doesn't support in all cases.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## fasTLane

bonscott87 said:


> Since we knew in 2004...


Try 2006, Oh clairvoyant one.


----------



## kevinwmsn

fasTLane said:


> Actually HBO HD, Showtime HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN HD, Universal HD, Discovery HD Theater and TNT HD. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I think you forgot ESPN2.


----------



## fasTLane

kevinwmsn said:


> I think you forgot ESPN2.


Thanks, kevinwmsn.


----------



## SledgeHammer

fasTLane said:


> Try 2006, Oh clairvoyant one.


False.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1748987,00.asp

Weird... that happened in CES '05 (Jan '05).


----------



## fasTLane

I guess I wasn't privy to the timely info that there would be an *mpeg2 shutoff for HD* when I was sold the DirecTivo in 2005. Maybe I was the last to know in 2006? Certainly heard nothing in 2004.


----------



## Doug Brott

fasTLane said:


> I guess I wasn't privy to the timely info that there would be an *mpeg3 shutoff for HD* when I was sold the DirecTivo in 2005. Maybe I was the last to know in 2006? Certainly heard nothing in 2004.


mpeg2


----------



## SledgeHammer

I'm pretty sure dbstalk knew of it in 2004 (or at least heard rumors). Besides, it was kind of common sense ... MPEG2 was just not a sustainable path due to bandwidth requirements. Of course DTV isn't going to tell you "hey, this box might now work in 2 yrs" .


----------



## tonyd79

fasTLane said:


> I guess I wasn't privy to the timely info that there would be an *mpeg3 shutoff for HD* when I was sold the DirecTivo in 2005. Maybe I was the last to know in 2006? Certainly heard nothing in 2004.


What difference does it make? I am sitting here stunned that you seem to have HD and DirecTV but don't get HD from DirecTV? In other words, do you have an HR2x as well as the HR10?


----------



## jal

Just trying to think back, but if memory serves, originally we were told that no new HD channels would be available on the HR10-250, but that the ones we had wouldnt be taken away. For a while, the "new" channels were just HD locals, then it expanded from there. Indeed, that's what the above referenced article seems to state: "customers wishing to take advantage of the upcoming HD expansion will need to purchase new receiver hardware capable of processing MPEG-4 AVC content."


----------



## Tom Robertson

jal said:


> Just trying to think back, but if memory serves, originally we were told that no new HD channels would be available on the HR10-250, but that the ones we had wouldnt be taken away. For a while, the "new" channels were just HD locals, then it expanded from there. Indeed, that's what the above referenced article seems to state: "customers wishing to take advantage of the upcoming HD expansion will need to purchase new receiver hardware capable of processing MPEG-4 AVC content."


In one sense DIRECTV did actually give HR10-250 owners chances to get the new channels--almost everyone qualified for one free swap program or another. I swapped 3 HR10-250s at almost no cost. (I may have had a shipping charge in there--all of $20.) 

But back to the DIRECTV TiVo 2011(?) I don't know if current hr10-250 users will get another chance at a free upgrade or not. I know my old units couldn't be used--DIRECTV kept track of what HR10-250s got upgraded.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## newsposter

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, yeah... when you have a box that can't recieve any HD channels, theres not much that can go wrong with it .


interestingly enough 99% of everything i record on the hdtivo is in HD. i guess i have one of those special boxes or something 



tonyd79 said:


> Or do much else either. No VOD. No MRV.


everyone assumes everyone needs all these fancy things. i do not and as much as the inference in this thread is that the box is inferior for some reason, not everyone shares the majority opinion and for some people it is superior. or at least adequate 

neither is right nor wrong....we all just are different and i'm choosing to rejoice over getting a new box at last instead of lamenting endlessly about how it's not as great as directv's own in some people's opinions

maybe the thread should only be for tivo lovers :eek2:


----------



## tonyd79

"newsposter" said:


> maybe the thread should only be for tivo lovers :eek2:


Why?


----------



## sigma1914

newsposter said:


> interestingly enough 99% of everything i record on the hdtivo is in HD. i guess i have one of those special boxes or something


Why even subscribe to satellite or cable if 99% of your viewing is HD OTA?


> maybe the thread should only be for tivo lovers :eek2:


Both of them? You might as well PM each other.


----------



## tonyd79

"sigma1914" said:


> Both of them? You might as well PM each other.


Besides, they have tivocommunity for that.


----------



## jacmyoung

newsposter said:


> ..we all just are different and i'm choosing to rejoice over getting a new box at last instead of lamenting endlessly about how it's not as great as directv's own in some people's opinions
> 
> maybe the thread should only be for tivo lovers :eek2:


The question is how many share your view and why a company must spend a fortune to cater to such a small group of people? In the end the cost will be passed on to everyone else.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> The question is how many share your view and why a company must spend a fortune to cater to such a small group of people? In the end the cost will be passed on to everyone else.


Possibly. Or perhaps the cost will be passed on to just thems who want the unit.

Though this sidebar does create an interesting thought. When this agreement was created, so many years ago, there were many TiVo fans clamoring for this. The marketing research that applied then might not work now. Thankfully they can charge almost anything to the TiVo fans, so long as it is less than the $13 per month it takes to use TiVos now. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Steve

Tom Robertson said:


> Possibly. Or perhaps the cost will be passed on to just thems who want the unit.
> 
> Though this sidebar does create an interesting thought. When this agreement was created, so many years ago, there were many TiVo fans clamoring for this. The marketing research that applied then might not work now. Thankfully they can charge almost anything to the TiVo fans, so long as it is less than the $13 per month it takes to use TiVos now.


Here's one way to look at it.

Assuming they paid TiVO $20,000,000 to develop this thing (my WAG, but the actual numbers are probably out there in the financial reports), if it currently costs DirecTV $700 to acquire a subscriber, they'll be ahead of the game if it brings them 30k new customers. That scenario is not outside the realm of possibility, IMHO.


----------



## bonscott87

fasTLane said:


> Try 2006, Oh clairvoyant one.


Nope. They *launched* it in 2006. But it was announced much earlier then that.

They announced it at CES 2004. There were many threads and discussions on it on AVS and other forums and tech news. It got more press from CES 2005. One of those was if the HR10-250 was MPEG4 compatible (which it wasn't going to be) nor could it tune to 99 and 103 slots.

So yes, before it was even released I already new it was obsolete. And so should have everyone else.


----------



## bonscott87

fasTLane said:


> I guess I wasn't privy to the timely info that there would be an *mpeg2 shutoff for HD* when I was sold the DirecTivo in 2005. Maybe I was the last to know in 2006? Certainly heard nothing in 2004.


Hmmm, was I privy to the fact that when I paid $800 for my Sony single LNB receiver in 1996 (Sat B2?) that 4 years later it was obsolete and needed to be replaced because it couldn't see the 119 sat slot where my locals went? Nope. Got a free replacement from DirecTV though.

Was I privy to the fact that the Hughes E-86 HD receiver I paid $750 for in 2002 wasn't MPEG4 compatible or couldn't do the NFL Sunday Ticket interactive stuff? Nope.

Or that the video card I paid $300 for 3 years ago can't play any games out today.

Luckily I did know about MPEG4 in time to not spend $1000 on an HR10-250. Unfortunately you didn't.

Time marches on and technology changes.


----------



## harsh

Steve said:


> Assuming they paid TiVO $20,000,000 to develop this thing (my WAG, but the actual numbers are probably out there in the financial reports), if it currently costs DirecTV $700 to acquire a subscriber, they'll be ahead of the game if it brings them 30k new customers. That scenario is not outside the realm of possibility, IMHO.


I'm pretty sure the agreement didn't include payments to TiVo for development. DIRECTV was to offer technical information and assistance to develop the product and follow up with marketing (and perhaps distribution) once the finished unit hit the market.


----------



## Steve

harsh said:


> I'm pretty sure the agreement didn't include payments to TiVo for development.


From TiVO's 3/14/11 10-k:

_During the twelve months ended January 31, 2011 and 2010, the Company recognized $6.5 million and $8.9 million in technology revenues and $6.5 million and $8.9 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively *related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR.*_


----------



## SledgeHammer

Steve said:


> From TiVO's 3/14/11 10-k:
> 
> _During the twelve months ended January 31, 2011 and 2010, the Company recognized $6.5 million and $8.9 million in technology revenues and $6.5 million and $8.9 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively *related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR.*_


Well, I guess that explains why Tivo is a $9 stock. Especially after winning all that loot from Dish.


----------



## SledgeHammer

newsposter said:


> interestingly enough 99% of everything i record on the hdtivo is in HD. i guess i have one of those special boxes or something


So you either don't watch any HD or everything you watch is OTA?


----------



## Steve

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, I guess that explains why Tivo is a $9 stock. Especially after winning all that loot from Dish.


Yup. And if ~ $15,000,000 represents the total development expenditure, then the SAC "break-even" for DirecTV on the deal is actually closer to 20k subscribers than the 30k I speculated above.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Steve" said:


> Yup. And if ~ $15,000,000 represents the total development expenditure, then the SAC "break-even" for DirecTV on the deal is actually closer to 20k subscribers than the 30k I speculated above.


Yet there is no such 20k even existed in the past or in the near future.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Yet there is no such 20k even existed in the past or in the near future.


:scratchin .. I'd venture to guess that there as still that many DIRECTV/TiVo customers today .. Remember, this is not JUST for those that had an HR10-250. DIRECTV will almost certainly want to market this to those TiVo users who have only SD TiVos.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> Yet there is no such 20k even existed in the past [...]


Huh? In 2006, there were reportedly 2.9 *million* DirecTiVO subscribers.


----------



## tonyd79

newsposter said:


> interestingly enough 99% of everything i record on the hdtivo is in HD. i guess i have one of those special boxes or something


Why do you even have DirecTV? If 99% of what you record is in HD, then why not just have a standalone Tivo as it must be only OTA.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Steve" said:


> Huh? In 2006, there were reportedly 2.9 million DirecTiVO subscribers.


Did you mean DirecTV paid TiVo $15M in 2010 to acquire 20k new DirecTiVo subs in 2006? Or did you mean they paid the money to drop 20k DirecTiVo subs during some time period in 2010?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Did you mean DirecTV paid TiVo $15M in 2010 to acquire 20k new DirecTiVo subs in 2006? Or did you mean they paid the money to drop 20k DirecTiVo subs during some time period in 2010?


Time doesn't stand still .. I think the assumption (from Steve) is that DIRECTV paid TiVo $15mm and that WHEN they get 20k new subscribers (future looking), they will break even based on SAC. It's not really that complicated.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Time doesn't stand still .. I think the assumption (from Steve) is that DIRECTV paid TiVo $15mm and that WHEN they get 20k new subscribers (future looking), they will break even based on SAC. It's not really that complicated.


Ding! Ding! Ding! Give the man a cigar!


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Time doesn't stand still .. I think the assumption (from Steve) is that DIRECTV paid TiVo $15mm and that WHEN they get 20k new subscribers (future looking), they will break even based on SAC. It's not really that complicated.


Well then why did he question my point that those $15M DirecTV handed to TiVo back in 2010, had no such 20k new subs to answer for in the past, nor will we see such break even happening in the near future?

My point wasn't complicated either. I'd like to see that money divided among us loyal subs, I can always use a PPV coupon or two.

BTW, after the ruling came out in the TiVo v. E* case, Comcast had ended its old agreement with TiVo, i.e. stopped paying TiVo such "development" fees. It would be a mistake for DirecTV to continue to pay TiVo such fees.


----------



## Jeremy W

richierich said:


> Because you can't get The Food Channel with OTA, or ESPN, or HNET, etc. etc. etc.


You also can't get any of those channels in HD with an HR10-250, which is the entire point.


----------



## fasTLane

TCM is an excellent example of fine programming in SD. Doesn't have to be HD to be great.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> :scratchin .. I'd venture to guess that there as still that many DIRECTV/TiVo customers today .. Remember, this is not JUST for those that had an HR10-250. DIRECTV will almost certainly want to market this to those TiVo users who have only SD TiVos.


If a customer hasn't upgraded to HD by now, they are probably flagged in the system as DWTOTC (don't waste time on this customer ). There is late and then there is REALLY late.

They'll just keep their SD Tivos and won't bother with this box.

If someone was holding out on upgrading to HD because there was no Tivo, they could have just gotten the HR10-250.

If they've held onto the HR10-250 all this time because they refused to use a non Tivo DVR and would rather miss out on all the HD channels, well, you might sway a few of them, but thats not going to bring in much money to DTV. They'd actually LOSE money... only getting $99 vs. $199.

Actually, I guess if you manage to sway a few of them, that would really be $99 vs. $0 .


----------



## SledgeHammer

fasTLane said:


> TCM is an excellent example of fine programming in SD. Doesn't have to be HD to be great.


If all you watch is SD, why even have an HDTV? SD will generally look better on a good quality SD TV because there is no scaling involved. Both 720 and 1080 TVs need to interpolate a 480i signal which basically translates to "lets make up a bunch of random pixels to fill in the stuff we don't have".

And of course with an SD TV, you wouldn't have those pesky side bars...

Or, I've seen a few peoples setups where they stretch the SD picture so its all short and fat.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Well then why did he question my point that those $15M DirecTV handed to TiVo back in 2010, had no such 20k new subs to answer for in the past, nor will we see such break even happening in the near future?


you're just confused .. that's why. DIRECTV has over 2 million DIRECTV/TiVo subs in the past and that has absolutely zero to do with the 20k number that Steve tossed out there. What your saying doesn't even make sense to me.



> My point wasn't complicated either. I'd like to see that money divided among us loyal subs, I can always use a PPV coupon or two.


We all want free stuff all of the time .. $15mm spent by DIRECTV to TiVo really won't have any bearing on free stuff to you one way or the other. Besides, with 19mm subs, $15mm won't buy many free PPVs.



> BTW, after the ruling came out in the TiVo v. E* case, Comcast had ended its old agreement with TiVo, i.e. stopped paying TiVo such "development" fees. It would be a mistake for DirecTV to continue to pay TiVo such fees.


For the eleven billionth time .. DIRECTV and TiVo have a signed agreement .. DIRECTV is making payments based on THAT agreement. It doesn't matter now, nor did it matter then what TiVo and Echostar hashed out. Now TiVo and Echostar have an agreement and there are certain payments associated with that agreement. If DIRECTV is required to pay more money to TiVo (under the SIGNED contract), then trust me, it would be a mistake for DIRECTV to NOT pay regardless of whether or not those payments make sense today.

So really, why does Echostar keep coming up in this thread with you. It has NOTHING to do with the arrangement with DIRECTV .. NOTHING!


----------



## fasTLane

SledgeHammer said:


> If all you watch is SD, why even have an HDTV? SD will generally look better on a good quality SD TV because there is no scaling involved. Both 720 and 1080 TVs need to interpolate a 480i signal which basically translates to "lets make up a bunch of random pixels to fill in the stuff we don't have".
> And of course with an SD TV, you wouldn't have those pesky side bars...
> Or, I've seen a few peoples setups where they stretch the SD picture so its all short and fat.


Don't forget that OTA is excellent on the HR10-250 and better than any local Direct feed. My Panasonic 50" monitor does a fine job scaling SD. And we prefer zoom over stretch.


----------



## Doug Brott

fasTLane said:


> Don't forget that OTA is excellent on the HR10-250 and better than any local Direct feed. My Panasonic 50" monitor does a fine job scaling SD. And we prefer zoom over stretch.


OTA-HD is not always better than Sat-delivered HD ..


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> you're just confused .. that's why. DIRECTV has over 2 million DIRECTV/TiVo subs in the past and that has absolutely zero to do with the 20k number that Steve tossed out there. What your saying doesn't even make sense to me.


The reason it did not make sense to you was because you were confused by what Steve was trying to say. So let Steve explain to me because I think he is not confused by what he was saying himself.



> We all want free stuff all of the time .. $15mm spent by DIRECTV to TiVo really won't have any bearing on free stuff to you one way or the other. Besides, with 19mm subs, $15mm won't buy many free PPVs.


That was a figure of speech, money wasted is money wasted.



> For the eleven billionth time .. DIRECTV and TiVo have a signed agreement .. DIRECTV is making payments based on THAT agreement. It doesn't matter now, nor did it matter then what TiVo and Echostar hashed out. Now TiVo and Echostar have an agreement and there are certain payments associated with that agreement. If DIRECTV is required to pay more money to TiVo (under the SIGNED contract), then trust me, it would be a mistake for DIRECTV to NOT pay regardless of whether or not those payments make sense today.
> 
> So really, why does Echostar keep coming up in this thread with you. It has NOTHING to do with the arrangement with DIRECTV .. NOTHING!


The point again, after the ruling it was clear to both Comcast and TiVo that TiVo's infringement threat was gone, as a result TiVo agreed to terminate its old agreement with Comcast where Comcast had to pay TiVo "development" fees to avoid being sued. Now Comcast no longer pays TiVo such fee.

The DirecTV past and the 08 "new" agreements are similar to the old Comcast agreement. So is DirecTV going to be as smart as Comcast on this one?


----------



## tonyd79

fasTLane said:


> Don't forget that OTA is excellent on the HR10-250 and better than any local Direct feed. My Panasonic 50" monitor does a fine job scaling SD. And we prefer zoom over stretch.


Again, if you are using your HR10 for OTA and 99% of what you record is HD, then why do you have DirecTV? Why not just an antenna and a Tivo?


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> The point again, after the ruling it was clear to both Comcast and TiVo that TiVo's infringement threat was gone, as a result TiVo agreed to terminate its old agreement with Comcast where Comcast had to pay TiVo "development" fees to avoid being sued. Now Comcast no longer pays TiVo such fee.
> 
> The DirecTV past and the 08 "new" agreements are similar to the old Comcast agreement. So is DirecTV going to be as smart as Comcast on this one?


Do you have copies of the DIRECTV agreements with TiVo and the Comcast one? I'd love to see copies myself...


----------



## fasTLane

tonyd79 said:


> Again, if you are using your HR10 for OTA and 99% of what you record is HD, then why do you have DirecTV? Why not just an antenna and a Tivo?


I did not post the 99% comment.


----------



## tonyd79

fasTLane said:


> I did not post the 99% comment.


Sorry. Reading on an iPhone sometimes means I read things wrong.


----------



## Tom Robertson

tonyd79 said:


> Sorry. Reading on an iPhone sometimes means I read things wrong.


 Move up to a real iPad...


----------



## SledgeHammer

fasTLane said:


> Don't forget that OTA is excellent on the HR10-250 and better than any local Direct feed. My Panasonic 50" monitor does a fine job scaling SD. And we prefer zoom over stretch.


Well, I can't comment on your local channel PQ since I see you live in Georgia. I live in So Cal near Los Angeles, so I pull in the LA feed. The LA feed and the NY feed are generally the best quality since those two are the "money" feeds.

I have an HR20-700 (or is it a -100?)... either way, its the one with the built in OTA. I do have the OTA hooked up and it pulls in the LA channels. I'm about 30 miles from LA. I think the PQ difference between the OTA and the DTV feed are pretty indistinguishable.

I did show the two to my dad a few years ago and he seemed to think the OTA was SLIGHTLY better, but he said he probably couldn't pick it out in a blind test.

EDIT: Some of the lower end OTA channels aren't all too good in the PQ department.


----------



## inkahauts

fasTLane said:


> Don't forget that OTA is excellent on the HR10-250 and better than any local Direct feed. My Panasonic 50" monitor does a fine job scaling SD. And we prefer zoom over stretch.


I totally disagree. I am very particular, and there is no discernible difference between the feeds here in Los Angeles. And since you don't have an MPEG-4 receiver, how would you know anyway? The Locals in HD when they where broadcast in MPEG-2 where inferior, that is true, which is the only thing you might have seen with a tivo if you lived in one of the two markets that showed mpeg-2 hd feeds...


----------



## tonyd79

Tom Robertson said:


> Move up to a real iPad...


Pockets aren't big enough!


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> The reason it did not make sense to you was because you were confused by what Steve was trying to say. So let Steve explain to me because I think he is not confused by what he was saying himself.
> 
> That was a figure of speech, money wasted is money wasted.
> 
> The point again, after the ruling it was clear to both Comcast and TiVo that TiVo's infringement threat was gone, as a result TiVo agreed to terminate its old agreement with Comcast where Comcast had to pay TiVo "development" fees to avoid being sued. Now Comcast no longer pays TiVo such fee.
> 
> The DirecTV past and the 08 "new" agreements are similar to the old Comcast agreement. So is DirecTV going to be as smart as Comcast on this one?


If Doug didn't understand Steve, why did steve say to doug.... "Ding! Ding! Ding! Give the man a cigar! " 

I think you missed the point entirely.

Comcast and tivo didn't dissolve their relationship at all. I don't know where you keep getting that idea. They simply changed it because Tivo could never get their software to work properly on the existing Comcast boxes. They are now going to actually sell the TIVO branded and built boxes to their customers instead of trying to put the software on the current boxes. They are adding the VOD capability to the tivo boxes so that customers won't have to loose any abilities to use a tivo with comcast over the comcast branded boxes. This obviously turned out to be much easier to implement, and comcast and tivo where probably growing tired of waiting to get the software right, and realized this was a faster solution, more elegant solution, and was immediate implementable, thereby making money for each now... These two companies are still exchanging monies and have a contract. They just changed its structure so they could make more money now and stop wasting money on development of something that has proven to be very difficult to build.... That has nothing to do with Dish agreeing to terms with Tivo. Comcasts development fees where development fees for a new box, not licensing fees...

Directvs fees where as much a licensing deal as they where a payment for development, as both where included into one contract which is still a totally valid payment. Comcast hasn't stopped that, and how anyone could see the settlement between dish and tivo as anything other than showing that tivo will win if they take you to court is beyond me. If Charlie thought he'd win, he never would have stopped. Tivo would have lost. Instead, tivo got dish to sign a agreement with them, something Directv decided to do long ago, which allowed them to avoid all the legal battles that Dish just went though.

I still think we will see the directivo, but as with all things tivo, it looks like they still have some software work to do, based on doug saying the release has been pushed back a little bit. Sounds like normal tivo issues to me... Just like the hr10-250 was delayed for ages before it hit...


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> The reason it did not make sense to you was because you were confused by what Steve was trying to say. So let Steve explain to me because I think he is not confused by what he was saying himself.


No, *Doug *was not confused. He summarized what I was trying to say perfectly, IMO. Hopefully he's enjoying his cigar.


----------



## jacmyoung

"inkahauts" said:


> If Doug didn't understand Steve, why did steve say to doug.... "Ding! Ding! Ding! Give the man a cigar! "


That is because he did not want to admit wrong. When I said the $15M DirecTV paid TiVo in 2010 had no answer to it either in the past or in the near future, Steve was quick to point out but back in 2006...then Doug pointed out but Steve was talking about "future" new subs. Doug misinterpreted Steve's remark, but of course Steve was more than happy to go along with it.

The fact of matter is there was no such 20k new DirecTiVo subs that could have justified the $15M DirecTV paid TiVo for in 2010, nor will there be such new subs in the near future to break even on it. Steve attacked my such statement, my statement still stands.



> I think you missed the point entirely.
> 
> Comcast and tivo didn't dissolve their relationship at all...


I never said they dissolved their relationship. What I said was, they had finally terminated an agreement which was based on a licensing fee structure, and replaced it with a new agreement that purely benefits Comcast, where TiVo subs now can finally get Comcast VOD service, of course they must first be a Comcast sub too. This new agreement benefits Comcast more than it benefits TiVo, more importantly it is not based on a licensing structure, rather a profit sharing structure where Comcast sits there collect fees, because TiVo will be the one to provide the hardware. It is almost the opposite of the old agreement.

You may argue the change was a techical one, like many of you continue to argue the delay on the DirecTiVo is a techical one, yet the timing of the agreements always seem to coincide with the court activities, whether with DirecTV or with Comcast.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Doug misinterpreted Steve's remark, but of course Steve was more than happy to go along with it.


Seriously!? I summarized the way I interpreted Steve .. Steve agreed with my summary and now you're saying that we're both wrong about Steve's comments?

Dude you are smoking something really strong to make a leap like that.


----------



## DarkSkies

Thank you all for my early afternoon chuckle. At one point there was language reminiscent of Donald Rumsfeld with his known knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknowns. I'd explain it to you but the explanation could require explanation.


----------



## Steve

DarkSkies said:


> Thank you all for my early afternoon chuckle. At one point there was language reminiscent of Donald Rumsfeld with his known knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknowns. I'd explain it to you but the explanation could require explanation.


:lol:

I just checked, and this calendar says there's a full moon tonite. That may explain it!


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Seriously!? I summarized the way I interpreted Steve .. Steve agreed with my summary and now you're saying that we're both wrong about Steve's comments?
> 
> Dude you are smoking something really strong to make a leap like that.


Steve said you were smoking his cigars, didn't you?

Look he said TiVo had this many subs in 2006, he never said of any "future" new subs as you interpreted.

There is no future new subs from this new DirecTiVo thing when the delay continues. Before we talk about any of such 20k new DirecTiVo subs, could you first confirm when this thing will be out? First thing first.

Last I read you said your June/July thing was no longer good. The $15M was paid to TiVo back over a year ago, when do you predict DirecTV will add 20k new DirecTiVo subs to break it even? A year from now?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Steve said you were smoking his cigars, didn't you?
> 
> Look he said TiVo had this many subs in 2006, he never said of any "future" new subs as you interpreted.
> 
> There is no future new subs from this new DirecTiVo thing when the delay continues. Before we talk about any of such 20k new DirecTiVo subs, could you first confirm when this thing will be out? First thing first.
> 
> Last I read you said your June/July thing was no longer good.


yeah .. since June/July is no longer good, it means sometime after that .. sorry it wasn't clear 

Honestly, I don't know. I know what I think I know but I'm not really confident in the information I do have now so all I'm going to say is June/July is off the table - it wasn't just a short time back.

saying there are "no future subs" is still a forward looking statement. I don't think you can definitely say that there will be "no subs" in the future. In fact, I believe that this product will still be released - I haven't been told of any cancellation, I know it is being actively worked on. From that, I would infer that there will in fact be some future subs.

Now back to the 20k subs ..

*STEVE PULLED THE 20K SUBS OUT OF THIN AIR*

This wasn't something that Steve said existed or even implied that DIRECTV would be able to reach this number. What he said .. which you are not grasping .. is that since DIRECTV spent $15mm and the standard Subscriber acquisition cost is $700 .. It would take 20k subs to break even ..

Now, even that math is not exact because that would only be $14mm, right. But it's all hypothetical .. napkin math to get near the answer, not to land on exact detailed answers.

The point is not that DIRECTV will have 20K subs .. Just that it will take 20K subs to break even. No where, not once was it ever suggested that DIRECTV paid TiVo the development fee and 20K subs magically appeared.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> Now, even that math is not exact because that would only be $14mm, right. But it's all hypothetical .. napkin math to get near the answer [...]


Since a *harsh *post made me look it up, the actual amount paid by DirecTV to TiVO was $15.4 million, instead of my $20 million WAG, so I revised my estimate down.



> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's one way to look at it.
> 
> Assuming they paid TiVO $20,000,000 to develop this thing (my WAG, but the actual numbers are probably out there in the financial reports), if it currently costs DirecTV $700 to acquire a subscriber, they'll be ahead of the game if it brings them 30k new customers. That scenario is not outside the realm of possibility, IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure the agreement didn't include payments to TiVo for development. DIRECTV was to offer technical information and assistance to develop the product and follow up with marketing (and perhaps distribution) once the finished unit hit the market.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> From TiVO's 3/14/11 10-k:
> 
> _During the twelve months ended January 31, 2011 and 2010, the Company recognized $6.5 million and $8.9 million in technology revenues and $6.5 million and $8.9 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively *related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. And if ~ $15,000,000 represents the total development expenditure, then the SAC "break-even" for DirecTV on the deal is actually closer to 20k subscribers than the 30k I speculated above.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> yeah .. since June/July is no longer good, it means sometime after that .. sorry it wasn't clear
> 
> Honestly, I don't know. I know what I think I know but I'm not really confident in the information I do have now so all I'm going to say is June/July is off the table - it wasn't just a short time back.
> 
> saying there are "no future subs" is still a forward looking statement. I don't think you can definitely say that there will be "no subs" in the future. In fact, I believe that this product will still be released - I haven't been told of any cancellation, I know it is being actively worked on. From that, I would infer that there will in fact be some future subs.
> 
> Now back to the 20k subs ..
> 
> STEVE PULLED THE 20K SUBS OUT OF THIN AIR
> 
> This wasn't something that Steve said existed or even implied that DIRECTV would be able to reach this number. What he said .. which you are not grasping .. is that since DIRECTV spent $15mm and the standard Subscriber acquisition cost is $700 .. It would take 20k subs to break even ..
> 
> Now, even that math is not exact because that would only be $14mm, right. But it's all hypothetical .. napkin math to get near the answer, not to land on exact detailed answers.
> 
> The point is not that DIRECTV will have 20K subs .. Just that it will take 20K subs to break even. No where, not once was it ever suggested that DIRECTV paid TiVo the development fee and 20K subs magically appeared.


I never questioned Steve's math. Even a grade schooler can do that math. But it takes more to ask the question, when are you going to see that break even point for that money paid to TiVo? As far as I know DirecTV under the agreement wil continue to pay such fees to TiVo, so when do you think a break even point can make business sense?

Comcast has cut out that fee, see if DirecTV can.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I never questioned Steve's math. Even a grade schooler can do that math. But it takes more to ask the question, when are you going to see that break even point for that money paid to TiVo? As far as I know DirecTV under the agreement wil continue to pay such fees to TiVo, so when do you think a break even point can make business sense?
> 
> Comcast has cut out that fee, see if DirecTV can.


You made claims about contracts and their similarity. I'm still waiting to see them contracts...


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I never questioned Steve's math. Even a grade schooler can do that math. But it takes more to ask the question, when are you going to see that break even point for that money paid to TiVo?


I'm not a psychic .. I don't know when that will happen. I could guess, speculate, assume, but I could be wrong. If I could see the future, trust me I'd be a rich man and doing something else.



> As far as I know DirecTV under the agreement wil continue to pay such fees to TiVo, so when do you think a break even point can make business sense?


Hmmmm ... $15mm from DIRECTV for development ... $500mm from DISH (post lawyer fees) for giving TiVo the finger - and losing. Honestly, I think DIRECTV's ahead on this one .. Getting back to break even would only be icing on the cake. So really, the decision already makes business sense for DIRECTV. Why do you think many of us have stated more over two years now that this arrangement is a win-win .. Both TiVo & DIRECTV win. If the project doesn't result in an actual product, then the only loser is TiVo. DIRECTV may not get back to break even in that case on a pure dollar perspective, but they also didn't thumb their nose at TiVo and end up $500mm in the hole.



> Comcast has cut out that fee, see if DirecTV can.


Yup .. because as was stated above. Comcast and TiVo changed their agreement .. They decided in essence to scrap the original project and go a different route. Both TiVo and Comcast had to agree, it's not like they Comcast could simply rewrite the contract because they reached a point in time that the original agreement wasn't working for them. If TiVo wanted, they could have held them to the original contract. Obligations are just that .. obligations. But yes contracts can be renegotiated, especially when a change will benefit both parties. That seems to be what happened here.

Also, remember $15mm is roughly 80-cents per subscriber - amortize that over 5 years and that's a 16-cent increase everyone's bill. It really doesn't matter .. while $15mm is a lot to you or me, it's pretty much pocket change for DIRECTV. I actually don't care when the will realize a break even point because from a business perspective I consider it moot.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> You made claims about contracts and their similarity. I'm still waiting to see them contracts...


I read that Comcast had paid TiVo up to $9M technology fee based on the old agreement. The new agreement clearly does not have such obligation because TiVo will be selling its own Premiere HDDVRs.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug, you don't have to convince me when it comes to playing with TiVo, both DirecTV and Comcast have better attorneys than Charlie had

It appears Charlie even overpaid TiVo in his settlement. But he hardly got the short end of the stick, after the settlement his stock has gone up 30%, while TiVo has gone down.


----------



## tonyd79

"jacmyoung" said:


> Doug, you don't have to convince me when it comes to playing with TiVo, both DirecTV and Comcast have better attorneys than Charlie had
> 
> It appears Charlie even overpaid TiVo in his settlement. But he hardly got the short end of the stick, after the settlement his stock has gone up 30%, while TiVo has gone down.


Dude. It had nothing to do with Charlies attorneys. It had to do with stealing technology.

Directv has something better than attorneys anyway. It is called Replaytv's patents.

As for Comcast. They are wisely following the path others have. Open your on dans stuff to TiVo and let customers buy TiVos. Who needs attorneys?


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I read that Comcast had paid TiVo up to $9M technology fee based on the old agreement. The new agreement clearly does not have such obligation because TiVo will be selling its own Premiere HDDVRs.


So you are assuming the two contracts are "similar" as you put it. You might wish to be very careful with such assumptions. 

The current DIRECTV contract has many fees and payments obligated by both parties.

And, by the way, TiVo can't do the same thing with DIRECTV they did with Comcast. The TiVo hardware can't speak satellite... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

tonyd79 said:


> As for Comcast. They are wisely following the path others have. Open your on dans stuff to TiVo and let customers buy TiVos. Who needs attorneys?


They certainly aren't following DirecTV's path, two different approaches. Comcast now will basically let TiVo do all the selling for them with TiVo's own DVRs, it is now up to TiVo to sell the standalone Premiere DVRs and convince the buyers to also sub to Comcast service so they can get Comcast VODs. Comcast is more than happy to sit there and collect the subscription fees. Of course we will have to see how it goes, according to some people the new Comcast agreement will not kick in until 2012. If true, basically TiVo has nothing on Comcast for now.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> So you are assuming the two contracts are "similar" as you put it. You might wish to be very careful with such assumptions.


In this case I am not even assuming it, I am saying both the old Comcast agreement and the current DirecTiVo agreement are based on licensing fees paid to TiVo for using TiVo's technology. The Comcast's new agreement with TiVo is no longer such type of agreement.



> The current DIRECTV contract has many fees and payments obligated by both parties.


DirecTV paid TiVo $15M technology fees by 2010, not the other way around, this much I don't think is in dispute.



> And, by the way, TiVo can't do the same thing with DIRECTV they did with Comcast. The TiVo hardware can't speak satellite...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I am not saying DirecTV has to go the same route Comcast is going, all I am saying is, with this new Comcast agreement, the smart attorneys must know TiVo has conceded that they cannot continue to rely on the threat of infringement suit to extract licensing fees from the big players.

Of course that does not preclude mutually beneficial agreements.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> In this case I am not even assuming it, I am saying both the old Comcast agreement and the current DirecTiVo agreement are based on licensing fees paid to TiVo for using TiVo's technology. The Comcast's new agreement with TiVo is no longer such type of agreement.
> 
> DirecTV paid TiVo $15M technology fees by 2010, not the other way around, this much I don't think is in dispute.
> 
> I am not saying DirecTV has to go the same route Comcast is going, all I am saying is, with this new Comcast agreement, the smart attorneys must know TiVo has conceded that they cannot continue to rely on the threat of infringement suit to extract licensing fees from the big players.
> 
> Of course that does not preclude mutually beneficial agreements.


You seem to "know" an awful lot about contracts you haven't seen... And forget that smart lawyers know that TiVo did win in all this. $500M is a whole lot more than $15M...

You also forgot that DIRECTVs $15M was for development of a mutually beneficial product. It doesn't include the monies paid by DIRECTV for licensing the technologies in the current DVRs.

We also don't know what other agreements Comcast has with TiVo for licensing fees about existing DVRs.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## I WANT MORE

Well, Thank you 3 for crapping all over my Tivo anticipation thread. Sheesh.


----------



## TDK1044

As someone who has never seen a Tivo device, can someone post a simple explanation as to why a Tivo is superior to an HR24? A lot of people seem to really like the Tivo device, and I'd be interested to know why it's supposedly so much better. Thanks.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Great question. It seems to come down to some of the search features and the fact that you can have more than 50 season passes on a TiVo. But of course that discounts all the advantages the HR24 has over a TiVo, like multiroom viewing.


----------



## TDK1044

It's interesting, Stuart. I have Whole Home DVR with three HD DVRs, two of which are HR24 series DVRs. That Network set up gives me everything I need. 

The one thing I really hope that D* offers in the future, is the ability to see a shared 'To Be Recorded' list, so that I don't have to remember what each DVR is set up to record. 

As a lot of D* customers going forward are going to go with Whole Home DVR, I can't see the fascination with Tivo devices? I'm sure people with real knowledge of these devices will tell me what I'm missing though.


----------



## Doug Brott

TiVo is something that is familiar to folks .. It's what people learned early on and changing after that is hard. Compound that with the fact that the first iteration of the HR2x was buggy (too buggy for some) and didn't do some of the "cool" things that the TiVo did - Dual Live Buffers is often mentioned.

Over time, the HR2x improved and not only caught up in features but in some ways exceeds the TiVo now. If TiVo had MPEG4 support 5 years ago, the landscape today would look very different. But now, here we are. I do think that that folks that have little to no problem with the HR2x will not enjoy switching to a TiVo. The interface is quite different and would require some learning. I have to relearn it every time I go back to use it.

Still, there are many people that really love their TiVo .. These are the folks that TiVo and DIRECTV will be marketing to. There will be people that will get this and really like it. However, I think that market it a closed set. I don't see many people in the broader population choosing the TiVo over the HR2x - especially those people that think EVERY DVR is a TiVo.

Will TiVo make money off of this in the long run? Maybe, if they can get 100,000 subs and there is a monthly fee, it could add up over the year. DIRECTV of course would also have 100,000 subs with their own piece of the pie. I think there will be some success with the product, but it will be much, much more muted than the HR2x.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> You seem to "know" an awful lot about contracts you haven't seen... And forget that smart lawyers know that TiVo did win in all this. $500M is a whole lot more than $15M...


After TiVo won in all this, DISH has gone up by 30% while TiVo has gone down, if an attorney still thinks TiVo had "won in all this" I would suggest companies stay away from such attorney



> You also forgot that DIRECTVs $15M was for development of a mutually beneficial product. It doesn't include the monies paid by DIRECTV for licensing the technologies in the current DVRs.


The point missed here is, both the current and the old agreements between DirecTV and TiVo, just like the old Comcast deal, were/is based on a royalty fee scenario. Such agreement is based on the assumed exclusive rights of the patented technologies.

The current new Comcast deal terminated such assumption right after the en banc ruling came out, which pretty much said E* no longer infringed, even though it appeared the ruling was all in TiVo's favor. That is why you need smart attorneys. The Comcast attorneys were smart, Charlie's attorneys, not so much



> We also don't know what other agreements Comcast has with TiVo for licensing fees about existing DVRs.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


While you can insist all the changes had nothing to do with the litigation, such as the new DirecTV/TiVo deal announced one day before the hearing in 2008, or the new Comcast deal announced days after the en banc ruling, I can certainly make connections of them, in the end we may find out who is more likely correct.


----------



## bidger

Someone is missing their "TiVo vs. Echostar" thread real bad. In case you missed it TiVo is in this thread title, but not Echostar.


----------



## jacmyoung

"bidger" said:


> Someone is missing their "TiVo vs. Echostar" thread real bad. In case you missed it TiVo is in this thread title, but not Echostar.


Neither is the HRxx HDDVR


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> While you can insist all the changes had nothing to do with the litigation, such as the new DirecTV/TiVo deal announced one day before the hearing in 2008, or the new Comcast deal announced days after the en banc ruling, I can certainly make connections of them, in the end we may find out who is more likely correct.


We don't care! That one is done .. Comcast is done (renegotiated for technology reasons .. good timing for Comcast perhaps).

DIRECTV has no incentive to renegotiate. There aren't a gazillion people dying to get a TiVo - they'll either stay away or get and HD DVR, but regardless, it's a tiny percentage of the overall picture. DIRECTV simply doesn't need to put effort into this.

The $15mm (+ some other costs I'm sure) is chump change. If the whole thing collapses, DIRECTV is not really out much. If it succeeds, the break even is so low that it's a non-issue. DIRECTV wins either way with the existing contract - why on earth would they want to change it up. Any improvement in the contract is tiny .. miniscule .. would cost more to renegotiate than the gain achieved.

You're trying to make Mt. Everest out of an ant mound.

The DIRECTV TiVo has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened between DISH and Echostar. Just because you've said a thousand times doesn't make it true.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> We don't care! That one is done .. Comcast is done (renegotiated for technology reasons .. good timing for Comcast perhaps).
> 
> DIRECTV has no incentive to renegotiate. There aren't a gazillion people dying to get a TiVo - they'll either stay away or get and HD DVR, but regardless, it's a tiny percentage of the overall picture. DIRECTV simply doesn't need to put effort into this.
> 
> The $15mm (+ some other costs I'm sure) is chump change. If the whole thing collapses, DIRECTV is not really out much. If it succeeds, the break even is so low that it's a non-issue. DIRECTV wins either way with the existing contract - why on earth would they want to change it up. Any improvement in the contract is tiny .. miniscule .. would cost more to renegotiate than the gain achieved.
> 
> You're trying to make Mt. Everest out of an ant mound.
> 
> The DIRECTV TiVo has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened between DISH and Echostar. Just because you've said a thousand times doesn't make it true.


Maybe DirecTV wants it to succeed? Have you ever thought about that? Most people have concluded this box, as it is now, cannot be viable. Why are you now ruling out the chance maybe both DirecTV and TiVo would try to make some changes to turn it into a viable one?

I am not predicting they will, but for you to be so certain nothing will change...


----------



## DarkSkies

jacmyoung said:


> Neither is the HRxx HDDVR


But "DIRECTV HD Receiver" is, and thus comparisons of TiVo the HRxx line of DVRs is valid.

At this point rolling out a DirecTiVo HD receiver is just another selling point for customers who had used TiVo in the past and want to move to DIRECTV for NFL ST or any of a number of reasons, but who have hesitated because they didn't want to have a non-TiVo experience.

Now DIRECTV can give them a choice: the DIRECTV DVR or the TiVo DVR. Both MPEG4 capabale, both HD, both able to do PPV, both able to record and manage recordings. Beyond that, the TiVo may have a higher upfront or monthly cost, and remaining feature comparisons are entirely subjective.

DIRECTV only gains here, it doesn't lose.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Maybe DirecTV wants it to succeed? Have you ever thought about that? Most people have concluded this box, as it is now, cannot be viable. Why are you now ruling out the chance maybe both DirecTV and TiVo would try to make some changes to turn it into a viable one?
> 
> I am not predicting they will, but for you to be so certain nothing will change...


Again .. any loss it tiny .. any gain is marginal. DIRECTV is going to focus on what is becoming their bread and butter in this department. The HR2x platform. Even the TiVo uses the same hardware platform so DIRECTV has already used economies of scale for that.

Why even ask if DIRECTV wants to succeed? As I stated in the post you quoted. DIRECTV wins (synonym for "succeed") regardless of which scenario plays out. Why would DIRECTV renegotiate when they have already won?


----------



## Hilbe

Forgive me if I missed it, but do we think this will be similar to a COX implementation? Use existing D* hardware (Ex: HR24) and allow you to optionally switch to Tivo software?


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Again .. any loss it tiny .. any gain is marginal. DIRECTV is going to focus on what is becoming their bread and butter in this department. The HR2x platform. Even the TiVo uses the same hardware platform so DIRECTV has already used economies of scale for that.
> 
> Why even ask if DIRECTV wants to succeed? As I stated in the post you quoted. DIRECTV wins (synonym for "succeed") regardless of which scenario plays out. Why would DIRECTV renegotiate when they have already won?


Maybe they can win a little more? Why not? Comcast did it. It is not as if TiVo has nothing to contribute. The problem is IMHO this "significantly higher fee" DirecTV must pay TiVo for each of the new DirecTiVo placed in service.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Hilbe" said:


> Forgive me if I missed it, but do we think this will be similar to a COX implementation? Use existing D* hardware (Ex: HR24) and allow you to optionally switch to Tivo software?


Just you know "COX" is not in the title of this thread


----------



## DarkSkies

Hilbe said:


> Forgive me if I missed it, but do we think this will be similar to a COX implementation? Use existing D* hardware (Ex: HR24) and allow you to optionally switch to Tivo software?


It will be DIRECTV hardware that comes with TiVo when you order the recevier. You will not be able to replace the DIRECTV software with TiVo software on existing receivers in your posession.


----------



## bonscott87

Hilbe said:


> Forgive me if I missed it, but do we think this will be similar to a COX implementation? Use existing D* hardware (Ex: HR24) and allow you to optionally switch to Tivo software?


It's an HR22 with Tivo software on it from the factory. You won't be able to download the Tivo software to your DirecTV DVR you already have.

Functionally it will basically be an HR10-250 (the old DirecTivo HD) with MPEG4 enabled.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Maybe they can win a little more? Why not? Comcast did it. It is not as if TiVo has nothing to contribute. The problem is IMHO this "significantly higher fee" DirecTV must pay TiVo for each of the new DirecTiVo placed in service.


For which the (tivo) customers will pay a higher fee as well. 

Comcast "did it" still needs some clarifying (like a full copy of the contract so we can intelligently discuss it)--but that is for another thread. (That is a <moderator> hint...) One key point is TiVo has a hardware solution for Comcast. They do not for DIRECTV. TiVo still has an income stream from Comcast customers.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> "Hilbe" said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if I missed it, but do we think this will be similar to a COX implementation? Use existing D* hardware (Ex: HR24) and allow you to optionally switch to Tivo software?
> 
> 
> 
> Just you know "COX" is not in the title of this thread
Click to expand...

Ah, but you see, Hilbe was very nicely on topic. Asking using a pertinent comparison. 

Now, if he were to then talk incessantly about COX, then he might be taking things a bit far. Thankfully, Hilbe will stay on topic. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> For which the (tivo) customers will pay a higher fee as well.


Which makes it less viable.



> Comcast "did it" still needs some clarifying (like a full copy of the contract so we can intelligently discuss it)--but that is for another thread. (That is a <moderator> hint...) One key point is TiVo has a hardware solution for Comcast. They do not for DIRECTV. TiVo still has an income stream from Comcast customers.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Of course I do not suggest DirecTV must have the exact same new model.

Look most people here are quick to point out this thing is a dud, delayed again and again, will be obsolete even if it comes out some day. Yet it is not good if one points out the sign that the changed environment today may renew the prospect of this thing by modifying the obligations.

If so, what is the purpose of this thread? Just so people can tell by the 1000th time this thing is a dud?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Look most people here are quick to point out this thing is a dud, delayed again and again, will be obsolete even if it comes out some day. Yet it is not good if one points out the sign that the changed environment today may renew the prospect of this thing by modifying the obligations.
> 
> If so, what is the purpose of this thread? Just so people can tell by the 1000th time this thing is a dud?


OK, so rather than asking a question as your response .. Please, explain what modifications in the existing contract (what little we really know) would make things "better" than they currently are.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The purpose of this thread, sir, is to keep all the random chatter compartmentalized. We know there is nothing to report from month to month or even year to year. If this thread no longer entertains you, I urge you to visit other parts of this site.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> The purpose of this thread, sir, is to keep all the random chatter compartmentalized. We know there is nothing to report from month to month or even year to year. If this thread no longer entertains you, I urge you to visit other parts of this site.


Where did you get the idea I wasn't entertained?


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> OK, so rather than asking a question as your response .. Please, explain what modifications in the existing contract (what little we really know) would make things "better" than they currently are.


How about reducing or dropping the licensing fee for a starter?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> How about reducing or dropping the licensing fee for a starter?


!rolling .. you asked as question.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> !rolling .. you asked as question.


How do you want me to say it?


----------



## ATARI

TDK1044 said:


> As someone who has never seen a Tivo device, can someone post a simple explanation as to why a Tivo is superior to an HR24? A lot of people seem to really like the Tivo device, and I'd be interested to know why it's supposedly so much better. Thanks.


Maybe its the "BOOONG!" noise?


----------



## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> How do you want me to say it?


Perhaps write the why and the how it would apply to what you would want.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> The purpose of this thread, sir, is to keep all the random chatter compartmentalized. We know there is nothing to report from month to month or even year to year. If this thread no longer entertains you, I urge you to visit other parts of this site.


I don't think any other part of the site allows for wasting so much time at work as this one where we've been arguing about vaporware for 3 yrs.


----------



## SledgeHammer

bonscott87 said:


> Functionally it will basically be an HR10-250 (the old DirecTivo HD) with MPEG4 enabled.


They are also removing built in OTA and the "coolness factor" that the HR10-250 had in its day.


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> Which makes it less viable.


Is it possible to be less viable then zero?


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> I don't think any other part of the site allows for wasting so much time at work as this one where we've been arguing about vaporware for 3 yrs.


You haven't seen the HD anticipation thread, have you ...


----------



## MysteryMan

Doug Brott said:


> You haven't seen the HD anticipation thread, have you ...


:lol:


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> You haven't seen the HD anticipation thread, have you ...





MysteryMan said:


> :lol:


The DLB threads were no slackers either.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> You haven't seen the HD anticipation thread, have you ...


Haha... I remember when I used to read the CE anticipation thread... the first couple of pages every week were always guys saying "Woohoo!! Bring It!!!", "Woohoo! I anticipate DLB (or MRV or HD GUI)". It got pretty repetitive.

The good thing about this thread is that every 5 to 10 pages, a new guy pops in and tries to convince us that the new DTivo is going to take over the world and we get to convince them all over again that it won't.


----------



## tonyd79

"jacmyoung" said:


> Maybe they can win a little more? Why not? Comcast did it. It is not as if TiVo has nothing to contribute. The problem is IMHO this "significantly higher fee" DirecTV must pay TiVo for each of the new DirecTiVo placed in service.


What did Comcast win? It is just a TiVo with access to on demand. They won little from what I saw. Just on demand rather than Netflix or amazon.


----------



## JBernardK

tonyd79 said:


> What did Comcast win? It is just a TiVo with access to on demand. They won little from what I saw. Just on demand rather than Netflix or amazon.


TiVo does Netflix and amazon.


----------



## Doug Brott

Doug Brott said:


> OK, so rather than asking a question as your response .. Please, explain what modifications in the existing contract (what little we really know) would make things "better" than they currently are.





jacmyoung said:


> How about reducing or dropping the licensing fee for a starter?





Doug Brott said:


> !rolling .. you asked as question.





jacmyoung said:


> How do you want me to say it?


so from the top ...

"OK, so rather than asking a question as your response .."
*Translation*: Please do not post a question in response to my next comment

"Please, explain what modifications in the existing contract (what little we really know) would make things "better" than they currently are."
*Translation*: Please post an idea that would be better than the status quo and explain why you think it would be better than the status quo

Is it really that hard?


----------



## tonyd79

"JBernardK" said:


> TiVo does Netflix and amazon.


I was talking about the new TiVo/Comcast deal. They are going to offer Comcast on demand via a TiVo. If they allow Netflix and amazon, then Comcast gains nothing.


----------



## Jeremy W

JBernardK said:


> TiVo does Netflix and amazon.


Standalone Tivos do. But do you think Comcast will allow their Tivos to access those services?


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> so from the top ...
> 
> "OK, so rather than asking a question as your response .."
> Translation: Please do not post a question in response to my next comment
> 
> "Please, explain what modifications in the existing contract (what little we really know) would make things "better" than they currently are."
> Translation: Please post an idea that would be better than the status quo and explain why you think it would be better than the status quo
> 
> Is it really that hard?


You don't think reducing or dropping the high licensing fee is better than the status quo?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> You don't think reducing or dropping the high licensing fee is better than the status quo?


!rolling .. OK, I'm on to you now .. You can only respond with a question .. interesting.


----------



## jacmyoung

"tonyd79" said:


> What did Comcast win? It is just a TiVo with access to on demand. They won little from what I saw. Just on demand rather than Netflix or amazon.


By allowing standalone TiVo Premiere HDDVRs to access the Comcast VODs, Comcast gains new subs because to get the VOD service the TiVo box users must now sub to Comcast first, while TiVo does the hardware manufacturing, software development and marketing for Comcast. This new arrangement seems much better for Comcast than the old one.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> !rolling .. OK, I'm on to you now .. You can only respond with a question .. interesting.


Are you incapable of answering it?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Are you incapable of answering it?


you haven't answered my question yet (I've asked twice) .. perhaps we are at a stalemate.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> By allowing standalone TiVo Premiere HDDVRs to access the Comcast VODs, Comcast gains new subs because to get the VOD service the TiVo box users must now sub to Comcast first, while TiVo does the hardware manufacturing, software development and marketing for Comcast. This new arrangement seems much better for Comcast than the old one.


I'm sure DIRECTV would let TiVo DVRs connect to DIRECTV... Oh that's right. TiVo can't connect. !rolling

And without seeing the agreement, do we really know that Comcast isn't paying license fees for the other DVRs? As in Comcast is no longer paying development fees, but now or still paying license fees?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> I'm sure DIRECTV would let TiVo DVRs connect to DIRECTV... Oh that's right. TiVo can't connect. !rolling


I don't think reducing or dropping the high DirecTV licensing fee requires that a standalone TiVo must be able to receive from a dish. Unlike the Comcast arrangement, DirecTV/TiVo can still use the DirecTV hardware, just reduce or eliminate the licensing fee.



> And without seeing the agreement, do we really know that Comcast isn't paying license fees for the other DVRs? As in Comcast is no longer paying development fees, but now or still paying license fees?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Licensing fee is only assessed on the devices used by the licensee, not on the devices used by the company that receives the fee. TiVo cannot charge itself a license fee on its own DVRs.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I don't think reducing or dropping the high DirecTV licensing fee requires that a standalone TiVo must be able to receive from a dish. Unlike the Comcast arrangement, DirecTV/TiVo can still use the DirecTV hardware, just reduce or eliminate the licensing fee.
> 
> Licensing fee is only assessed on the devices used by the licensee, not on the devices used by the company that receives the fee. TiVo cannot charge itself a license fee on its own DVRs.


Ok, so wait. You are suggesting DIRECTV reduce the License fee to TiVo because comcast has let TiVo use TiVo's receivers on Comcast's network--which DIRECTV can't do?

How does that work again?

And we still don't know if the new Comcast agreement has license fees for any DVRs that are not TiVo but Comcast supplied. That is kinda an important part of the story...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, so wait. You are suggesting DIRECTV reduce the License fee to TiVo because comcast has let TiVo use TiVo's receivers on Comcast's network--which DIRECTV can't do?


Not at all, what I am suggesting is, TiVo by its willingness to terminate the old licensing agreement with Comcast, showed us TiVo recognized its bargaining power had weakened in the wake of the en banc ruling where by all its appearance, the ruling undermined TiVo's infringement threat against DISH. Keep in mind DISH was a convicted infringer, therefore by such ruling removing TiVo's infringement threat against DISH, other companies are under even less threat.



> And we still don't know if the new Comcast agreement has license fees for any DVRs that are not TiVo but Comcast supplied. That is kinda an important part of the story...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Even DISH isn't paying TiVo a licensing fee, the settlement pays TiVo a lump sum and in exchange DISH can deploy as many DVRs as they want and use TiVo's technologies as they wish. If after seeing this, Comcast still agreed to continue to pay TiVo some kind of licensing fee assessed against its own DVRs in this new agreement, well what can I say? You have the right to believe what you want to believe.

The question is then, why in the world should DirecTV continue to pay TiVo a licensing fee? Not just a licensing fee, but a "significantly higher fee"?


----------



## Doug Brott

$500mm is a pretty hefty non-license fee. 

@ $5/pop it would take 100-million payments from DIRECTV to match. Even if DIRECTV has 100,000 customers for the TiVo, it would take 1,000 months to equal that - that's 83 years. Let's get a little perspective here.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> $500mm is a pretty hefty non-license fee.
> 
> @ $5/pop it would take 100-million payments from DIRECTV to match. Even if DIRECTV has 100,000 customers for the TiVo, it would take 1,000 months to equal that - that's 83 years. Let's get a little perspective here.


Remember--it was a "settlement" not a license agreement.  

And don't let the fact that it runs exactly as long as TiVo's patents fool you... That doesn't mean anything either... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Remember--it was a "settlement" not a license agreement.


That is the point isn't it? TiVo would have loved to settle on a licensing deal, instead they agreed to take a lump sum deal, definitely not the winning deal as you and Doug may suggest, at least the investors don't share such sentiment.



> And don't let the fact that it runs exactly as long as TiVo's patents fool you... That doesn't mean anything either...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


In the eyes of some of you, none of the business/legal environment matters, it is only technical issues that mattered. So TiVo is just so stupid that it simply did not have the technical know how to make the new DirecTiVo work, despite the fact they already made the old DirecTiVo work just fine, by many accounts they worked better than the early models of the DirecTV's own DVRs, and again by all account this new DirecTiVo will not be that different from the old one which worked perfectly fine.

But for some reason TiVo could not make the new one work. You'd rather believe this, and refuse to consider maybe there are other reasons than the technical issues?


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> That is the point isn't it? TiVo would have loved to settle on a licensing deal, instead they agreed to take a lump sum deal, definitely not the winning deal as you and Doug may suggest, at least the investors don't share such sentiment.


Umm... you clearly don't understand that TiVo got a combination license, court award, and penalty deal in that settlement. It as all rolled into one series of big payments. A very nice set of payments by the way.


jacmyoung said:


> In the eyes of some of you, none of the business/legal environment matters, it is only technical issues that mattered. So TiVo is just so stupid that it simply did not have the technical know how to make the new DirecTiVo work, despite the fact they already made the old DirecTiVo work just fine, by many accounts they worked better than the early models of the DirecTV's own DVRs, and again by all account this new DirecTiVo will not be that different from the old one which worked perfectly fine.
> 
> But for some reason TiVo could not make the new one work. You'd rather believe this, and refuse to consider maybe there are other reasons than the technical issues?


Does TiVo have the ability to make this work? I think so. I've heard some of their programmers have left, but I think that eventually they could. Yet they are way, way behind on all their technical projects: TiVo premier, Comcast DVR, Cox DVR, and DIRECTV DVR.

And I know there ain't no "outside of TiVo" business reason they couldn't deliver the DIRECTV DVR in 3 years (has it really been that long!?) Within TiVo, I don't know enough about the company to understand so many delays.

I also know DIRECTV started from scratch and got the HR20 up in less than 3 years. Much less than having to port from an existing codebase.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## tonyd79

"jacmyoung" said:


> By allowing standalone TiVo Premiere HDDVRs to access the Comcast VODs, Comcast gains new subs because to get the VOD service the TiVo box users must now sub to Comcast first, while TiVo does the hardware manufacturing, software development and marketing for Comcast. This new arrangement seems much better for Comcast than the old one.


Minimal. Seriously doubt it will have much of an impact for new subs. All they will gain is those who already have a TiVo can buy on demand stuff. Anyone loyal enough to the TiVo brand to pay the extra fees for a TiVo is not going to make a difference. Meanwhile, comcast doesn't rent their boxes.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

In looking back at the many posts here, and the information that has been shared by some folks who must know more than most of us...it would seem:

1) The HR22-100 HD DVR is the hardware
2) MPEG4 will be supported
3) WHDS (MRV) will not be supported
4) Tivo-developed software will be contained in the unit, and the logo on it as well
5) It's real...coming for sure...and apparently showing up before year end
6) There will likely be an additional service fee

Beyond these things that have already been stated (more than once)...for those who care or are interested...its pretty much wait and see time. :shrug:


----------



## fasTLane

Steve said:


> The DLB threads were no slackers either.


Someone has determined that the new Tivo software is going to be provided on Direct's home grown hardware.

So why wasn't the popular Tivo-style DualLiveBuffer ever implemented on the Direct boxes? Anyone know the reason?


----------



## jacmyoung

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> In looking back at the many posts here, and the information that has been shared by some folks who must know more than most of us...it would seem:
> 
> 1) The HR22-100 HD DVR is the hardware
> 2) MPEG4 will be supported
> 3) WHDS (MRV) will not be supported
> 4) Tivo-developed software will be contained in the unit, and the logo on it as well
> 5) It's real...coming for sure...and apparently showing up before year end
> 6) There will likely be an additional service fee
> 
> Beyond these things that have already been stated (more than once)...for those who care or are interested...its pretty much wait and see time. :shrug:


I don't think anyone had given me the impression that 5) is "apparently" so.


----------



## Doug Brott

fasTLane said:


> Someone has determined that the new Tivo software is going to be provided on Direct's home grown hardware.
> 
> So why wasn't the popular Tivo-style DualLiveBuffer ever implemented on the Direct boxes? Anyone know the reason?


It was. It's called Doubleplay. I actually coined that name myself.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> I don't think anyone had given me the impression that 5) is "apparently" so.





Doug Brott said:


> yeah .. since June/July is no longer good, it means sometime after that .. sorry it wasn't clear
> 
> Honestly, I don't know. I know what I think I know but I'm not really confident in the information I do have now so all I'm going to say is June/July is off the table - it wasn't just a short time back.


I read that it was maybe 30-60 days away...and now many a few more months...but nothing significant that would taken it beyond year end. If so....Doug would likely spell it out as such, since he's been on top of things for quite some time on this topic. For that reason, the word "apparent" seemed appropriate, as opposed to "unknown" or "for certain".


----------



## fasTLane

Doug Brott said:


> It was. It's called Doubleplay. I actually coined that name myself.


And double play works exactly like the Tivo DLB?


----------



## tonyd79

fasTLane said:


> Someone has determined that the new Tivo software is going to be provided on Direct's home grown hardware.
> 
> So why wasn't the popular Tivo-style DualLiveBuffer ever implemented on the Direct boxes? Anyone know the reason?


Because it isn't. Why would you think it is a hardware limitation. It is a choice.

BTW, why do I need Tivo's dual buffer? I am fine with what we have.


----------



## jacmyoung

"tonyd79" said:


> Minimal. Seriously doubt it will have much of an impact for new subs. All they will gain is those who already have a TiVo can buy on demand stuff. Anyone loyal enough to the TiVo brand to pay the extra fees for a TiVo is not going to make a difference. Meanwhile, comcast doesn't rent their boxes.


It is still a better deal for Comcast

There is no dispute neither DirecTV nor Comcast needs TiVo. Therefore those agreements where they must pay license fees to use TiVo's technology are/were not mutually beneficial deals, they only benefit/benefitted TiVo.

It should be no surprise they did not work out well. TiVo seemed to have finally realized they need mutually beneficial agreements with other companies to have a chance at it, that is not to say the new deal will succeed.


----------



## fasTLane

tonyd79 said:


> Because it isn't. Why would you think it is a hardware limitation. It is a choice. BTW, why do I need Tivo's dual buffer? I am fine with what we have.


So the answer would be Direct's buffer solution is a more advanced concept, preferred over the Tivo approach. Evolutionary in design.
I see. :sure:


----------



## harsh

SledgeHammer said:


> I don't think any other part of the site allows for wasting so much time at work as this one where we've been arguing about vaporware for 3 yrs.


The HMC has been vaporware for over six years. A media player download solution has been vaporware for five years. As both of those are desirable to many, I suppose the discussion hasn't been "wasted".


----------



## jacmyoung

fasTLane said:


> So the answer would be Direct's buffer solution is a more advanced concept, preferred over the Tivo approach. Evolutionary in design.
> I see. :sure:


It is handicapping just like the new DirecTiVo will not have MRV and a few other nice features.


----------



## sigma1914

fasTLane said:


> So the answer would be Direct's buffer solution is a more advanced concept, preferred over the Tivo approach. Evolutionary in design.
> I see. :sure:


That extra pressing of 'Down' is soooooooooooo complicated. However, the extra time on DoublePlay is more advanced and preferred, IMO.


----------



## bonscott87

fasTLane said:


> And double play works exactly like the Tivo DLB?


Well, not exactly. One whole extra key press and 90 minute buffers instead of 30. :lol:


----------



## fasTLane

bonscott87 said:


> Well, not exactly. One whole extra key press and 90 minute buffers instead of 30. :lol:


Really... And everything else is exactly the same? :sure:


----------



## sigma1914

fasTLane said:


> Really... And everything else is exactly the same? :sure:


How about telling what you're eluding to instead of this little game?


----------



## fasTLane

No game. Just looking for facts. Got any?


----------



## sigma1914

fasTLane said:


> No game. Just looking for facts. Got any?


Yes...
When both ways are engaged, 2 streams are recorded/buffered. 
90 minutes > 30 minutes

So...what's so different that Tivotees love more? The 'always active' of Tivo?


----------



## SledgeHammer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 5) It's real...coming for sure...and apparently showing up before year end


Nobody ever said that.

Its not coming "for sure" and "before year end" is not guaranteed either. The plug can be pulled at any time before this thing ever sees the light of day... or the plug could be pulled after a short production run, etc.

Even Doug acknowledges that it may get its plug pulled, although I think the last odds he threw out was something like 95% its coming out and 5% it'll never come out.

DirecTV has pulled the plug on products before... ones that had a MUCH bigger buzz... and ones that people *actually wanted*. Remember the PCI dual tuner board they were supposed to release to integrate with Windows Media Center? I believe they had a working demo at CES or something and then killed it (probably due to piracy concerns IMO).


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> Because it isn't. Why would you think it is a hardware limitation. It is a choice.
> 
> BTW, why do I need Tivo's dual buffer? I am fine with what we have.


I seem to remember I used DLB when I had my HR10-250, but I haven't DLB in like 6 to 8 yrs. Its kind of a dumb feature. Why not just hit the record button on the other show? Its too easy to accidently lose your buffer with DLB.


----------



## tonyd79

fasTLane said:


> So the answer would be Direct's buffer solution is a more advanced concept, preferred over the Tivo approach. Evolutionary in design.
> I see. :sure:


Wow. Agenda much? Not what I said at all. Who said Tivo's is more advanced or DirecTV's is more advanced? They both work. Nitpicking just to "prove" Tivo is better.


----------



## sigma1914

SledgeHammer said:


> I seem to remember I used DLB when I had my HR10-250, but I haven't DLB in like 6 to 8 yrs. Its kind of a dumb feature. Why not just hit the record button on the other show? Its too easy to accidently lose your buffer with DLB.


I only use it during sports to easily go back and forth.


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> I seem to remember I used DLB when I had my HR10-250, but I haven't DLB in like 6 to 8 yrs. Its kind of a dumb feature. Why not just hit the record button on the other show? Its too easy to accidently lose your buffer with DLB.


I prefer having a DLB because often I *want* to dump the buffer and want the flexibility. When I don't want to lose the buffer, I use record. But when I am jumping around (slightly) live TV, I prefer dual buffers.

What I prefer about Tivos: It is always on.

What I prefer about DirecTVs: It is bigger (90 minutes v. 30) AND the two tuners are actually independent. Tivos are not; they interact when the same channel is selected with unintuitive results. Lot easier to dump the buffer on Tivo than on DirecTV.

I don't mind activating the buffer but I do prefer the 90 minutes and that the two tuners are truly independent. Do the latter and make them always live, I am happy, but always live is a low priority for me.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tivo's solution is better if you think 30 minutes some randomly available program on th "other" buffer is important. In reality, the two are slightly different, but on balance Doubleplay is more feature rich. 

If you never watch Live TV, then dual live buffers are meaningless.


----------



## fasTLane

SledgeHammer said:


> I seem to remember I used DLB when I had my HR10-250, but I haven't DLB in like 6 to 8 yrs. Its kind of a dumb feature. Why not just hit the record button on the other show? Its too easy to accidently lose your buffer with DLB.


LOL :lol: Dumb is relative.


----------



## JBernardK

tonyd79;2783225 AND the two tuners are actually independent. Tivos are not; they interact when the same channel is selected with unintuitive results. Lot easier to dump the buffer on Tivo than on DirecTV.
[/QUOTE said:


> Could you clarify what you mean by not independent?


----------



## Jeremy W

JBernardK said:


> Could you clarify what you mean by not independent?


DoublePlay will leave you parked on one tuner until *you* switch to the other one. Tivo won't always do this.


----------



## tonyd79

JBernardK said:


> Could you clarify what you mean by not independent?


I always mungle this up but I will try.

You are on a Tivo. Tuner A is on channel 501 and Tuner B is on channel 208. Both are running their own buffer. While viewing Tuner A (501), you punch in Channel 206. Tuner B continues with 208. Tuner A gets a new buffer, as expected. Now you push channel up. Tuner A gets a new buffer on 207, Tuner B continues with 208. All is still well. You push channel up again. Tuner A does NOT change channel. It continues with 207 with its buffer but you (without notice) have changed visible tuners so you are watching Tuner B. So Tuner A still has 207 and Tuner B still has 208 but you have switched buffers. You push channel up again and now TUNER B is on 209 and gets a new buffer but Tuner A remains on 207 with its old buffer. Unsuspectingly, you have dumped the buffer from channel 208. The buffers interact when they are both trying to access the same channel.

On DirecTV, the same scenario would allow you to just stay on Tuner A and when you pass through chanel 208, Tuner B remains on 208 and keeps its buffer. In effect, on DirecTV, both buffers can be on the same channel without interfering with each other.

I got caught on this many times with Tivo. Dumping buffers I didn't intend to even after I understood how it worked.

I hope this made sense. It is not easy to explain.


----------



## JBernardK

tonyd79 said:


> I always mungle this up but I will try.
> 
> You are on a Tivo. Tuner A is on channel 501 and Tuner B is on channel 208. Both are running their own buffer. While viewing Tuner A (501), you punch in Channel 206. Tuner B continues with 208. Tuner A gets a new buffer, as expected. Now you push channel up. Tuner A gets a new buffer on 207, Tuner B continues with 208. All is still well. You push channel up again. Tuner A does NOT change channel. It continues with 207 with its buffer but you (without notice) have changed visible tuners so you are watching Tuner B. So Tuner A still has 207 and Tuner B still has 208 but you have switched buffers. You push channel up again and now TUNER B is on 209 and gets a new buffer but Tuner A remains on 207 with its old buffer. Unsuspectingly, you have dumped the buffer from channel 208. The buffers interact when they are both trying to access the same channel.
> 
> On DirecTV, the same scenario would allow you to just stay on Tuner A and when you pass through chanel 208, Tuner B remains on 208 and keeps its buffer. In effect, on DirecTV, both buffers can be on the same channel without interfering with each other.
> 
> I got caught on this many times with Tivo. Dumping buffers I didn't intend to even after I understood how it worked.
> 
> I hope this made sense. It is not easy to explain.


If you punch in a channel number that is already on the other tuner, the TiVo will switch to that tuner. Now if you punch in another channel you will lose the buffer. That seems logical but I can see how it might confuse one if you are just surfing up and down.

So on the D* DVR can you have both tuners on the same channel? I guess it keeps the larger buffer if you switch away.


----------



## Shades228

fasTLane said:


> No game. Just looking for facts. Got any?


Fact: People with DIRECTV holding out for a TiVo are going to be disappointed.

Fact: DIRECTV doesn't need, and doesn't really care about, TiVo ever coming out with a box for their service.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Shades228 said:


> Fact: People with DIRECTV holding out for a TiVo are going to be disappointed.
> 
> Fact: DIRECTV doesn't need nor really cares about TiVo ever coming out with a box.


Nah, thems is just opinions. 

Now had you said, "Fact: *Some* people with DIRECTV holding out for a TiVo are going to be disappointed," you would have been close enough to be truly a fact. 

And I tend to think a goodly number of people holding out will be disappointed. Then again, I think I'd be disappointed with how little TiVo has grown in the past 5 years. 

I also think *some* people within DIRECTV do care about TiVo--or did. I think they really wanted to serve the group that had to have TiVo.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

JBernardK said:


> So on the D* DVR can you have both tuners on the same channel?


Yes.


JBernardK said:


> I guess it keeps the larger buffer if you switch away.


No. It keeps whichever buffer is in the background.


----------



## tonyd79

JBernardK said:


> If you punch in a channel number that is already on the other tuner, the TiVo will switch to that tuner. Now if you punch in another channel you will lose the buffer. That seems logical but I can see how it might confuse one if you are just surfing up and down.
> 
> So on the D* DVR can you have both tuners on the same channel? I guess it keeps the larger buffer if you switch away.


No, it switches the buffer you are watching. That is what I mean by independent. They do not interact at all.

Whether you surf up/down or change channels, the Tivo methodology is hidden and counterintuitive. It doesn't tell you it is dumping the buffer in the other tuner or that it changed tuners.

The DirecTV approach doesn't change tuners UNLESS YOU ACTIVELY DO SO with the down arrow. You are only affecting what you are working with.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Tom Robertson said:


> Nah, thems is just opinions.
> 
> Now had you said, "Fact: *Some* people with DIRECTV holding out for a TiVo are going to be disappointed," you would have been close enough to be truly a fact.
> 
> And I tend to think a goodly number of people holding out will be disappointed. Then again, I think I'd be disappointed with how little TiVo has grown in the past 5 years.
> 
> I also think *some* people within DIRECTV do care about TiVo--or did. I think they really wanted to serve the group that had to have TiVo.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I dunno... seems like all the hold outs care about is the SL / SP limit... and in that regard they will NOT be disappointed.

If they expect VOD, MRV, Tivo2Go, Netflix, YouTube, QWERTY remote, etc. they certainly will be.

From the last few guys that posted in this thread, all they care about is the SL limit, so who knows...


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> I dunno... seems like all the hold outs care about is the SL / SP limit... and in that regard they will NOT be disappointed.
> 
> If they expect VOD, MRV, Tivo2Go, Netflix, YouTube, QWERTY remote, etc. they certainly will be.
> 
> From the last few guys that posted in this thread, all they care about is the SL limit, so who knows...


If that is all they care about, why did they wait so long. They could have just added another DVR and had more SLs. I think they also have a (fond?) memory of Tivo and just plain like the GUI. And for that, they will not be disappointed. In other words, if they want an equivalent of an HR10 with MPEG4 and more disk space (and optional OTA), they will be happy.

Pssssst. Actually I think they hang on the SL limit only because it is the only thing they can point to that is factual. Liking a GUI is feeling, not fact.


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> If they expect VOD, MRV, Tivo2Go, Netflix, YouTube, QWERTY remote, etc. they certainly will be.


I believe VOD will actually be included.


----------



## JBernardK

tonyd79 said:


> No, it switches the buffer you are watching. That is what I mean by independent. They do not interact at all.
> 
> Whether you surf up/down or change channels, the Tivo methodology is hidden and counterintuitive. It doesn't tell you it is dumping the buffer in the other tuner or that it changed tuners.
> 
> The DirecTV approach doesn't change tuners UNLESS YOU ACTIVELY DO SO with the down arrow. You are only affecting what you are working with.


I don't find it counter-intuitive at all. IF you choose a channel that is already tuned on a tuner, it switches to that tuner. Why would you ever want the same channel on two tuners? I do see how you could drop a buffer you want if you are not careful.

You can always press the info button and see what is on both tuners. I don't get the concept of a "background tuner."


----------



## Jeremy W

JBernardK said:


> I don't get the concept of a "background tuner."


What is there not to get? The background tuner is the one you're not watching at the moment.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> If that is all they care about, why did they wait so long. They could have just added another DVR and had more SLs. I think they also have a (fond?) memory of Tivo and just plain like the GUI. And for that, they will not be disappointed. In other words, if they want an equivalent of an HR10 with MPEG4 and more disk space (and optional OTA), they will be happy.
> 
> Pssssst. Actually I think they hang on the SL limit only because it is the only thing they can point to that is factual. Liking a GUI is feeling, not fact.


As we discussed earlier, if you a techie (or a dbstalk member) you might be down with having 5 HR2x boxes to make up for the SL limit. I think only a tiny majority of people would be into having a set up like that. If you have multiple TVs its an easier sell.

I am a techie and am into gadgets and am obviously on dbstalk, but I wouldn't even bother setting up 2 HR2x boxes on my one TV. Seems like too much of a hassle and its too expensive IMO. I'm not willing to pay $199 + $9extra / month just to get more SLs.

I loved my HR10 when I had it and I still think even the classic Tivo interface is generally nicer then the current HR2x interface. That being said, the HR2x interface is pretty much the same minus the Tivo mascot and at this point in time, I'm not willing to give up the PIG.


----------



## RACJ2

tonyd79 said:


> I always mungle this up but I will try.
> 
> You are on a Tivo. Tuner A is on channel 501 and Tuner B is on channel 208. Both are running their own buffer. While viewing Tuner A (501), you punch in Channel 206. Tuner B continues with 208. Tuner A gets a new buffer, as expected. Now you push channel up. Tuner A gets a new buffer on 207, Tuner B continues with 208. All is still well. You push channel up again. Tuner A does NOT change channel. It continues with 207 with its buffer but you (without notice) have changed visible tuners so you are watching Tuner B. So Tuner A still has 207 and Tuner B still has 208 but you have switched buffers. You push channel up again and now TUNER B is on 209 and gets a new buffer but Tuner A remains on 207 with its old buffer. Unsuspectingly, you have dumped the buffer from channel 208. The buffers interact when they are both trying to access the same channel.
> 
> On DirecTV, the same scenario would allow you to just stay on Tuner A and when you pass through chanel 208, Tuner B remains on 208 and keeps its buffer. In effect, on DirecTV, both buffers can be on the same channel without interfering with each other.
> 
> I got caught on this many times with Tivo. Dumping buffers I didn't intend to even after I understood how it worked.
> 
> I hope this made sense. It is not easy to explain.


So, who's on first?

I actually think I followed what you were saying and I prefer the way DoublePlay works. As was mentioned, just wish the buffer stayed on all the time.


----------



## fasTLane

RACJ2 said:


> As was mentioned, just wish the buffer stayed on all the time.


Which begs the question, why *can't* the buffers stay on all the time?


----------



## tonyd79

fasTLane said:


> Which begs the question, why *can't* the buffers stay on all the time?


Don't know that we got an official answer.


----------



## tonyd79

JBernardK said:


> I don't find it counter-intuitive at all. IF you choose a channel that is already tuned on a tuner, it switches to that tuner. Why would you ever want the same channel on two tuners? I do see how you could drop a buffer you want if you are not careful.


For the EXACT reason I gave. Why have them do a dance around each other? Affect what I am working with and seeing, not something else.

Why would you think it intuitive to jump to the other tuner just because you changed a channel? I never told it to change tuners. I want that tuner to do what I left it doing and mind its own business.



JBernardK said:


> You can always press the info button and see what is on both tuners. I don't get the concept of a "background tuner."


But you don't have to do that with the DirecTV approach. Less active work to be done.

I always hated the interaction of the two tuners on the Tivo and was glad when I found that doubleplay doesn't have that problem.


----------



## bonscott87

fasTLane said:


> Really... And everything else is exactly the same? :sure:


Yep, except DirecTV actually has independent tuners as noted. Thus DirecTV is "better" in this way as well as 90 minutes vs. 30 minutes. Only thing the Tivo version has on DirecTV is it's on full time which as Doug mentioned only matters if you really care about some random program in the 2nd buffer when you sit down. Otherwise you'll never care and the only main difference to you and me is that on DirecTV you simply hit the down arrow twice to activate while Tivo it's once.

But this was discussed to death a few years ago when DirecTV introduced it to the DirecTV DVRs so this is a total rehash of well known facts.


----------



## Jeremy W

fasTLane said:


> Which begs the question, why *can't* the buffers stay on all the time?


DirecTV pushes a lot of content to the DVRs. So, my guess is that they'd like to keep the background tuner free when it's not being actively used, either by DoublePlay or a recording.


----------



## bonscott87

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV pushes a lot of content to the DVRs. So, my guess is that they'd like to keep the background tuner free when it's not being actively used, either by DoublePlay or a recording.


I do believe that was the "un"official explanation is that when not in use the background tuner is used for downloading the VOD programs.

Then again this isn't any different from the old DirecTivos that took one of the tuners in the middle of the night to channel 582 to download guide data. So you sit down the next day and find your other tuner tuned to a black screen which was channel 582. LOL


----------



## tonyd79

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, except DirecTV actually has independent tuners as noted.


Another factor with independent tuners...you can use it to jump around 4 channels rather than two.

Down arrow changes buffers/tuners on DirecTV. Tivo has dropped the down arrow and uses previous channel now. On DirecTV, previous channel is for THAT tuner/buffer, so I can jog between two channels on either buffer or do it on one while leaving the other buffer, well, buffering. Can only do that with Tivo by punching in the number or changing the channel with the guide.

Much easier to watch 4 football games on one DVR with the DirecTV approach as I have two buttons to control what game I am watching and I determine which buffers drop.


----------



## Beerstalker

Not sure if this is really 100% on topic but I figured I would post anyway. I gues Tivo just changed thier pricing for their Premier boxes today. From now on it's $20 a month for the first box (and it sounds like it's probably going to be $15 a month for each additional box). After hearing about this I feel even more strongly that $5/month fee that the DirecTV site talked about is going to be per Tivo unit.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-05/tivo-simplifies-pricing-on-may-19th/


----------



## Shades228

Beerstalker said:


> Not sure if this is really 100% on topic but I figured I would post anyway. I gues Tivo just changed thier pricing for their Premier boxes today. From now on it's $20 a month for the first box (and it sounds like it's probably going to be $15 a month for each additional box). After hearing about this I feel even more strongly that $5/month fee that the DirecTV site talked about is going to be per Tivo unit.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-05/tivo-simplifies-pricing-on-may-19th/


I can't imagine anyone wanting to pay more in receiver fees than programming fees. With Premier I would pay more just to use TiVo's than I would for the cost of my programming package by almost double and I have the Premier package.


----------



## JBernardK

tonyd79 said:


> Another factor with independent tuners...you can use it to jump around 4 channels rather than two.
> 
> Down arrow changes buffers/tuners on DirecTV. Tivo has dropped the down arrow and uses previous channel now. On DirecTV, previous channel is for THAT tuner/buffer, so I can jog between two channels on either buffer or do it on one while leaving the other buffer, well, buffering. Can only do that with Tivo by punching in the number or changing the channel with the guide.
> 
> Much easier to watch 4 football games on one DVR with the DirecTV approach as I have two buttons to control what game I am watching and I determine which buffers drop.


Not true. On a Tivo you press the "live TV" button to switch between tuners. On a given tuner, you press the enter button to switch between two channels. Of course you lose the buffer when you do this and I suspect the same it true on the DirecTV approach.


----------



## Doug Brott

tonyd79 said:


> Don't know that we got an official answer.


Two big reasons. (1) the extra buffer would eat up 90 minutes of your Storage space and (2) there needs to be time to get movies to your DVR.


----------



## tonyd79

JBernardK said:


> Not true. On a Tivo you press the "live TV" button to switch between tuners. On a given tuner, you press the enter button to switch between two channels. Of course you lose the buffer when you do this and I suspect the same it true on the DirecTV approach.


That did not work on my last Tivo. Maybe a version change. It confused me when it happened. Good to know it is not pervasive.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

bonscott87 said:


> But this was discussed to death a few years ago when DirecTV introduced it to the DirecTV DVRs so this is a total rehash of well known facts.


That it was. I remember those threads vividly as I am a proponent of having the buffers always on. Wait, now if the new TiVo receiver comes out and still has to have DP started, hopefully they can make the nag screen about starting it go away really quick or not show up at all. 


Doug Brott said:


> Two big reasons. (1) the extra buffer would eat up 90 minutes of your Storage space and (2) there needs to be time to get movies to your DVR.


On #2, one can always say "well the old D-TiVo did it and worked..."


----------



## Doug Brott

Tallgntlmn said:


> That it was. I remember those threads vividly as I am a proponent of having the buffers always on. Wait, now if the new TiVo receiver comes out and still has to have DP started, hopefully they can make the nag screen about starting it go away really quick or not show up at all.


The DIRECTV TiVo will be TiVo software. I can't imagine it will work any different than they way it does on the HR10-250.



> On #2, one can always say "well the old D-TiVo did it and worked..."


This would actually be incorrect .. Much different scope and generally only small amounts of programming was done this way. The issue is not that it couldn't necessarily be done this way .. It's because you may come back to the buffer .. expect it to be 90 minutes and find that there is only 5 minutes (as the usage just stopped). This is about consistency. Since 90 minutes could not be guaranteed 100% of the time, it isn't available at all (unless you are actively using it).

So, Doubleplay provides 100% usage (no interruptions at any hour of the day for background recording) while you are actively using it.

Doubleplay also provides you 0% usage when you are NOT actively using it but recordings can be downloaded at any time (not just @ 2 in the morning) when Doubleplay is not in use.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Doug Brott said:


> The DIRECTV TiVo will be TiVo software. I can't imagine it will work any different than they way it does on the HR10-250.
> 
> Since 90 minutes could not be guaranteed 100% of the time, it isn't available at all (unless you are actively using it).


I did not have the HR10-250 so not sure how that one worked. I remember on the D-TiVo I had, I hit the background tuner and was not presented with a notification. I wish we could get rid of that notification, make it shorter or not have to hit exit to get rid of it. For me, that is the one thing I really do not like about the DoublePlay implementation.

Now that explanation about the 90 minutes, I don't think I had ever seen before. That makes sense and now I can understand better why it is how it is.

Of course, none of this is here nor there. I am more interested in knowing that this receiver in this thread does/will exist and is not severely disabled compared to a real TiVo like the old ones were. I haven't paid a lot of attention to this thread so what I wonder (feature wise) may have already been mentioned a few times.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tallgntlmn said:


> Of course, none of this is here nor there. I am more interested in knowing that this receiver in this thread does/will exist and is not severely disabled compared to a real TiVo like the old ones were. I haven't paid a lot of attention to this thread so what I wonder (feature wise) may have already been mentioned a few times.


Severely disabled? Don't look for Amazon or Netflix or any other DIRECTV competitor to be available on the box .. You'll have to go standalone for that (with other limitations of course). It will have all of the features of the HR10-250 which pretty much never changed. Don't look for MRV when it comes out, but don't blame that one on DIRECTV .. 90 minute buffers? :nono:

As I've stated a few times already, if you had an older DIRECTV TiVo (Standard Def or High Def), the new one is pretty close to the same thing as what you had many, many years ago. It will have MPEG4-HD, it will have OTA (via the AM21 add on) and it will support the new SWiM distribution. I think they added Swivel search and Kid zone (the 2008 Press release said it would) but I think that's about it for "new" features. The biggest thing that is new is that you'll be able to actually get a TiVo for DIRECTV again .. hopefully by year end, but I've about given up on predicting the "when" at that point.


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> That is because he did not want to admit wrong. When I said the $15M DirecTV paid TiVo in 2010 had no answer to it either in the past or in the near future, Steve was quick to point out but back in 2006...then Doug pointed out but Steve was talking about "future" new subs. Doug misinterpreted Steve's remark, but of course Steve was more than happy to go along with it.
> 
> The fact of matter is there was no such 20k new DirecTiVo subs that could have justified the $15M DirecTV paid TiVo for in 2010, nor will there be such new subs in the near future to break even on it. Steve attacked my such statement, my statement still stands.
> 
> I never said they dissolved their relationship. What I said was, they had finally terminated an agreement which was based on a licensing fee structure, and replaced it with a new agreement that purely benefits Comcast, where TiVo subs now can finally get Comcast VOD service, of course they must first be a Comcast sub too. This new agreement benefits Comcast more than it benefits TiVo, more importantly it is not based on a licensing structure, rather a profit sharing structure where Comcast sits there collect fees, because TiVo will be the one to provide the hardware. It is almost the opposite of the old agreement.
> 
> You may argue the change was a techical one, like many of you continue to argue the delay on the DirecTiVo is a techical one, yet the timing of the agreements always seem to coincide with the court activities, whether with DirecTV or with Comcast.


You assume that the licensing fee is gone. I doubt it. I think its simply all been changed..

If we where to get to examine it, I think this is what we would see...

Comcast will pay a licensing fee for using patented tivo capabilities. This will be a small fee.

Comcast will probably put up monies for production of tivo hardware, since they will have it and carry it on their trucks, and also collect the hardware fees for it, based o the way I read the statement. They will be pushing it to their customers, just as much as tivo will be.

There will be kick in from comcast for tivo marketing. (I think this was probably there before as well)

Tivo will disable competing features on their tivos so you won't be able to choose netflix, you will be able to choose Comcast VOD... (guessing here)

Tivo will get some of the monthly tivo fees, and comcast will get some of the monthly tivo fees as well (the ones they charge the customers)

All of that and they will be able to roll it out in the near term, to all markets that have enough boxes in supply.

A true restructuring of the deal to make it happen faster, and to make more money for everyone faster. It will be positioned as a premium dvr for comcast because I believe not only will it be a tivo, it will also have a larger hard drive, and other additional features that many of the DVRS used by their current subs... (this will not be the case for Directv subs, with directv it will be more of a paralleled device)

This is something that happened over a period of time, and in no way could have come up and been put together as fast as Echostar suddenly agreeing to a settlement with Tivo. I fully suspect this started far before then, probably beginning with talks last year sometime when delays in software production continued and someone at the higher end figured maybe there was a better route to go.

Dish absolutely is paying Tivo licensing fees. Its just they are doing it all at once, and are good till the patents run out, where as Directv and comcast are probably paying smaller licensing fees and paying them out over time... Same concept, just different ways of getting it done.

Why you think tivo would let Directv restructure a deal and not pay licensing fees is beyond logic. Everyone is paying tivo licensing fees, even if that's not what they are calling them. And because directv also is letting tivo create its own directv box, and same with comcast (in whatever form it becomes) they are probably paying less than what Dish is basically going to end up paying...

You're also dreaming if you think Comcast cut out that fee. Tivo isn't going to let that fee go. Heck, now they have a bankroll to sue again if needed... If there was a chance for any company to end that fee though, it would be directv, since they own replaytv.

I suspect that direct is looking forward to seeing the tivo boxes hit, because they will make money on them... I am positive they will. Tivos will sell easily to anyone who has a directivo now, and only one box in a house. If you only have one tv in the house, the amount of advantages that the HR's have over Tivo is much slimmer, (based on the physical setup, and what I expect is also a different kind of demo that won't use nearly as many advanced features as a multi tv household) and when you factor in some people love the atrocious Tivo interface and think its far better than Directvs, its a slam dunk. I'd guess they will sell at least 50K of these babies... But I expect Comcast will sell 100's of thousands, if not millions...

The fun part for me right now is waiting to see what hits first.. The new Tivo or the HR34.... I know which one I want..


----------



## trainman

SledgeHammer said:


> I dunno... seems like all the hold outs care about is the SL / SP limit... and in that regard they will NOT be disappointed.


The SL limit isn't _quite_ an issue for me (I have about 45 SLs); if I were going to switch to the new TiVo, it would be over the aspects of WishList functionality that I still miss from the DirecTiVo.

But I'm actually leaning toward not switching -- especially with my Netflix streaming subscription, I don't really _need_ better WishList searches in order to find stuff to watch.



> If they expect VOD, MRV, Tivo2Go, Netflix, *YouTube*, QWERTY remote, etc. they certainly will be.


YouTube videos are available on the DirecTV DVRs, so I don't see any inherent reason why YouTube wouldn't be available on the new TiVo.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The inherent reason is that TiVo Inc. is coding the new TiVo DVR and DIRECTV coded the HR2x series. So a feature that is available on one does not magically migrate to the other. Given the extraordinary tardiness of this product, I doubt that they're working on anything more than basic features at this point and (hopefully) are not wasting time on less-important aspects.


----------



## tonyd79

Stuart Sweet said:


> The inherent reason is that TiVo Inc. is coding the new TiVo DVR and DIRECTV coded the HR2x series. So a feature that is available on one does not magically migrate to the other. Given the extraordinary tardiness of this product, I doubt that they're working on anything more than basic features at this point and (hopefully) are not wasting time on less-important aspects.


Good point. Other aspects can be added if the base works and sells. Although too much crippling makes it less likely to sell.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And releasing it 2 1/2 years after you announce it isn't going to make it "less likely to sell?"


----------



## jacmyoung

"inkahauts" said:


> You assume that the licensing fee is gone. I doubt it. I think its simply all been changed..
> 
> If we where to get to examine it, I think this is what we would see...
> 
> Comcast will pay a licensing fee for using patented tivo capabilities. This will be a small fee.
> 
> Comcast will probably put up monies for production of tivo hardware, since they will have it and carry it on their trucks, and also collect the hardware fees for it, based o the way I read the statement. They will be pushing it to their customers, just as much as tivo will be.
> 
> There will be kick in from comcast for tivo marketing. (I think this was probably there before as well)
> 
> Tivo will disable competing features on their tivos so you won't be able to choose netflix, you will be able to choose Comcast VOD... (guessing here)
> 
> Tivo will get some of the monthly tivo fees, and comcast will get some of the monthly tivo fees as well (the ones they charge the customers)
> 
> All of that and they will be able to roll it out in the near term, to all markets that have enough boxes in supply.
> 
> A true restructuring of the deal to make it happen faster, and to make more money for everyone faster. It will be positioned as a premium dvr for comcast because I believe not only will it be a tivo, it will also have a larger hard drive, and other additional features that many of the DVRS used by their current subs... (this will not be the case for Directv subs, with directv it will be more of a paralleled device)
> 
> This is something that happened over a period of time, and in no way could have come up and been put together as fast as Echostar suddenly agreeing to a settlement with Tivo. I fully suspect this started far before then, probably beginning with talks last year sometime when delays in software production continued and someone at the higher end figured maybe there was a better route to go.
> 
> Dish absolutely is paying Tivo licensing fees. Its just they are doing it all at once, and are good till the patents run out, where as Directv and comcast are probably paying smaller licensing fees and paying them out over time... Same concept, just different ways of getting it done.
> 
> Why you think tivo would let Directv restructure a deal and not pay licensing fees is beyond logic. Everyone is paying tivo licensing fees, even if that's not what they are calling them. And because directv also is letting tivo create its own directv box, and same with comcast (in whatever form it becomes) they are probably paying less than what Dish is basically going to end up paying...
> 
> You're also dreaming if you think Comcast cut out that fee. Tivo isn't going to let that fee go. Heck, now they have a bankroll to sue again if needed... If there was a chance for any company to end that fee though, it would be directv, since they own replaytv.
> 
> I suspect that direct is looking forward to seeing the tivo boxes hit, because they will make money on them... I am positive they will. Tivos will sell easily to anyone who has a directivo now, and only one box in a house. If you only have one tv in the house, the amount of advantages that the HR's have over Tivo is much slimmer, (based on the physical setup, and what I expect is also a different kind of demo that won't use nearly as many advanced features as a multi tv household) and when you factor in some people love the atrocious Tivo interface and think its far better than Directvs, its a slam dunk. I'd guess they will sell at least 50K of these babies... But I expect Comcast will sell 100's of thousands, if not millions...
> 
> The fun part for me right now is waiting to see what hits first.. The new Tivo or the HR34.... I know which one I want..


Do you know why TiVo agreed to terminate the old licensing deal? Because TiVo is dying, they continue to lose subs. Even if your above assumptions are correct about the new Comcast deal, it is still not a licensing deal, by definition a license fee would be assessed on Comcast for deploying its own DVRs which may or may not contain the TiVo technologies. The new agreement is about selling TiVo's own Premiere DVRs, there cannot be a license fee by definition. If anything Comcast in theory could charge TiVo a license fee for accessing Comcast's VOD technology. I am not saying this is the case, only to explain what does a "license fee" mean.

If TiVo wants to stop the bleeding of the DirecTiVo subs, likewise they can start by reducing or terminate the "significantly higher" licensing fee DirecTV must pay TiVo to deploy this already obsolete DVR. Because it should be clear to TiVo DirecTV isn't losing any sleep seeing the DirecTiVo subs fleeing to DirecTV's own brands.


----------



## tonyd79

Stuart Sweet said:


> And releasing it 2 1/2 years after you announce it isn't going to make it "less likely to sell?"


I think that ship has sailed.



Seriously, features versus delivery dates are a constant tradeoff in any consumer (non-spec) product.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Its very hard to overcome the initial impression. If the box comes out and its lame, crippled or unstable, you aren't really going to win people over with newer versions unless its an awesome feature that people must have and isn't available on the HR2x.

At this point with it being 2 1/2 to 3 yrs late, there isn't much Tivo can do to impress people.

I'm sure if they came to their senses and the delay is because they decided to pimp out the box, I'm sure Doug or others would know about it by now.


----------



## Doug Brott

I see the word "crippled" used a fair amount with respect to this product .. It's the same thing as the HR10-250 for the most part .. It's never been more than that. "crippled" implies that something was taken away so what specifically is crippled about this product?


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> I see the word "crippled" used a fair amount with respect to this product .. It's the same thing as the HR10-250 for the most part .. It's never been more than that. "crippled" implies that something was taken away so what specifically is crippled about this product?


I think the difference is what it's being compared against. It may not be crippled when compared to the HR10-250, but when compared to Tivo's latest and greatest, it is absolutely crippled.

However, Tivo's latest and greatest doesn't work with DirecTV.


----------



## tonyd79

Doug Brott said:


> I see the word "crippled" used a fair amount with respect to this product .. It's the same thing as the HR10-250 for the most part .. It's never been more than that. "crippled" implies that something was taken away so what specifically is crippled about this product?


Okay, how about "challenged?" 

You don't have to have something taken away to be crippled. It can be genetic.

Anyway, I agree with Jeremy W (above). Compared to today's Tivo and today's DirecTV DVRs, this thing will be "challenged."


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> At this point with it being 2 1/2 to 3 yrs late, there isn't much Tivo can do to impress people.


And that is that. Hard to make it great at this point. Most DVRs do the basic stuff and this sounds like it will be the basic stuff. Any differences beyond preference of GUI are pretty much minor from DVR to DVR (unless it is a Comcast Scientific Atlanta POS).


----------



## Jeremy W

tonyd79 said:


> Any differences beyond preference of GUI are pretty much minor from DVR to DVR (unless it is a Comcast Scientific Atlanta POS).


Comcast's Guide is basically the same on both SA/Cisco and Motorola boxes. However, the SA/Cisco SARA guide (that Comcast used to use, and most providers still use) is horrific.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> I see the word "crippled" used a fair amount with respect to this product .. It's the same thing as the HR10-250 for the most part .. It's never been more than that. "crippled" implies that something was taken away so what specifically is crippled about this product?


Good that we are tackling some important terms, what about his use of the term "pimp out"? I wonder if it is a correct description of what is going on. Never say never right?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> I see the word "crippled" used a fair amount with respect to this product .. It's the same thing as the HR10-250 for the most part .. It's never been more than that. "crippled" implies that something was taken away so what specifically is crippled about this product?


Its crippled compared to the HR20s. Hell, its crippled compared to almost any modern DVR out there. Its crippled compared to the standalone Tivos too.

Oh, and let us not forget that they took away the built in OTA with channel re-scan... and the modding capabilities.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> And that is that. Hard to make it great at this point. Most DVRs do the basic stuff and this sounds like it will be the basic stuff. Any differences beyond preference of GUI are pretty much minor from DVR to DVR (unless it is a Comcast Scientific Atlanta POS).


I've personally used Tivo, Moxi and the HR2x series... I can say for a fact that the Tivo and the HR2x are pretty similiar, but the Moxi is very different. Its not as thoughtfully laid out and often shows a very limited amount of information. BUT... even it has full time PIG... something that makes the new DTivo very lacking.

Then again, I guess if you are using SLs, the need for PIG is pretty small.


----------



## fasTLane

Still find it astonishing. All this interest in a late, crippled, challenged, disabled and stripped down unit.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> And that is that. Hard to make it great at this point. Most DVRs do the basic stuff and this sounds like it will be the basic stuff. Any differences beyond preference of GUI are pretty much minor from DVR to DVR (unless it is a Comcast Scientific Atlanta POS).


It could be made awesome.

Networking + built in OTA w/ rescan + 1080i/p HD GUI + PIG + full time DLB + VOD + MRV + the higher SL limit + QWERTY remote + real time GUI + swivel search + Tivo2Go + YouTube + Netflix + Amazon + eSATA

and I think *everybody* would be sold on it.

I know DTV will probably never do Netflix + Amazon lol, but maybe they will kind of be forced into it by customer demand down the road.

Then again, there is some rumor of a DTV netflix like service... but seeing their other prices like $30 PPVs, I doubt they will be able to compete with Netflix for pricing. Selection on VOD is horrible.


----------



## SledgeHammer

fasTLane said:


> Still find it astonishing. All this interest in a late, crippled, challenged, disabled and stripped down unit.


What interest? I think everybody will be astonished at how badly this thing does IF it ever comes out and that is still a big IF at this point. I don't think the majority of the people in this thread have interest in paying an extra $5 / month for a "late, crippled, challenged, disabled and stripped down unit"


----------



## fasTLane

Reckon this thing will even have power cord?


----------



## Shades228

SledgeHammer said:


> It could be made awesome.
> 
> Networking + built in OTA w/ rescan + 1080i/p HD GUI + PIG + full time DLB + VOD + MRV + the higher SL limit + QWERTY remote + real time GUI + swivel search + Tivo2Go + YouTube + Netflix + Amazon + eSATA
> 
> and I think *everybody* would be sold on it.
> 
> I know DTV will probably never do Netflix + Amazon lol, but maybe they will kind of be forced into it by customer demand down the road.
> 
> Then again, there is some rumor of a DTV netflix like service... but seeing their other prices like $30 PPVs, I doubt they will be able to compete with Netflix for pricing. Selection on VOD is horrible.


Which will never happen so it won't be awesome.


----------



## SledgeHammer

fasTLane said:


> Reckon this thing will even have power cord?


Thats an extra $3/month lease fee.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Doug Brott said:


> I see the word "crippled" used a fair amount with respect to this product .. It's the same thing as the HR10-250 for the most part .. It's never been more than that. "crippled" implies that something was taken away so what specifically is crippled about this product?


I can't speak for others but when I say disabled or crippled, I mean compared to the standalone. My TV (and whatever blu-ray I ever get) has/will have Netflix, Amazon, all that on it. Just about everything else has that, why do we need another piece of equipment that have those services?

So what I would like to see in a TiVo based DirecTV receiver is a current generation standalone TiVo with DirecTV tuners. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's a pipe dream and will never happen. Main thing I like about the TiVo vs the HR's is TiVo2Go. I guess one day that may be coming in some form, eh? Maybe one day we will be able to play shows off our DVR on our iDevices or other portables.


----------



## inkahauts

You want the Nomad...


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> Do you know why TiVo agreed to terminate the old licensing deal? Because TiVo is dying, they continue to lose subs. Even if your above assumptions are correct about the new Comcast deal, it is still not a licensing deal, by definition a license fee would be assessed on Comcast for deploying its own DVRs which may or may not contain the TiVo technologies. The new agreement is about selling TiVo's own Premiere DVRs, there cannot be a license fee by definition. If anything Comcast in theory could charge TiVo a license fee for accessing Comcast's VOD technology. I am not saying this is the case, only to explain what does a "license fee" mean.
> 
> If TiVo wants to stop the bleeding of the DirecTiVo subs, likewise they can start by reducing or terminate the "significantly higher" licensing fee DirecTV must pay TiVo to deploy this already obsolete DVR. Because it should be clear to TiVo DirecTV isn't losing any sleep seeing the DirecTiVo subs fleeing to DirecTV's own brands.


Again, can you please show me anything in writing, or link me to something that says Comcast is not going to pay licensed fees to tivo anymore, and that they where before this deal, and that this particular deal killed it? I won't believe it till I see it. You just don't have near enough facts to state what you are stating, because you just assume they aren't paying licensing fees.

OK, Just did a quick search.. This article says that Comcast still retains the rights for the licencee deal they had signed, and are still able to renew it under the original terms for renewal agreed upon years ago. SO in fact, they are still paying the licensing fees. (Looks like they paid upfront for them)

http://www.multichannel.com/article...s_TiVo_Set_Top_Deal_But_Will_Open_VOD_Tap.php

Now, how on earth could Tivo dropping licensing fees for Directv have any impact on tivo customers trading in direct tivos for newer mpeg-4 hd dvrs from directv? The only way I can think of that they might be able to change that is by producing a tivo that does mpeg-4 hd.. Oh wait....

Dropping a licensing fee does nothing to stop the bleeding of customers. I don't even know how you came to completely illogical conclusion. If anything, its the only truly stead income (if they didn't pay it all upfront) that they have left from Directv till they do get this new box out...


----------



## jacmyoung

inkahauts said:


> Again, can you please show me anything in writing, or link me to something that says Comcast is not going to pay licensed fees to tivo anymore, and that they where before this deal, and that this particular deal killed it? I won't believe it till I see it. You just don't have near enough facts to state what you are stating, because you just assume they aren't paying licensing fees.
> 
> OK, Just did a quick search.. This article says that Comcast still retains the rights for the licencee deal they had signed, and are still able to renew it under the original terms for renewal agreed upon years ago. SO in fact, they are still paying the licensing fees. (Looks like they paid upfront for them)
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article...s_TiVo_Set_Top_Deal_But_Will_Open_VOD_Tap.php
> 
> Now, how on earth could Tivo dropping licensing fees for Directv have any impact on tivo customers trading in direct tivos for newer mpeg-4 hd dvrs from directv? The only way I can think of that they might be able to change that is by producing a tivo that does mpeg-4 hd.. Oh wait....
> 
> Dropping a licensing fee does nothing to stop the bleeding of customers. I don't even know how you came to completely illogical conclusion. If anything, its the only truly stead income (if they didn't pay it all upfront) that they have left from Directv till they do get this new box out...


You made so many assumptions about the new Comcast deal without any facts for support, yet you accuse me of having no facts. I only made one conclusion which is supported by fact, the fact is, by definition, a license fee is assessed against the use of a licensee's (Comcast's) own device, which may or may not contain the licensor's (TiVo's) technology. Since the new agreement only specifies the use of the licensor's (TiVo's) own device, there is no way to assess a license fee against the use of such device, if you had read some of the court proceedings how a license fee may be determined, you would understand.

As far as the DirecTV deal, I never said if TiVo agreed to reduce or eliminate the "significantly higher" license fee DirecTV has to pay, all the sudden this project will succeed, what I said was, if TiVo wants to have any chance for it to succeed, they can start by reducing the fees, it will be a start, there is still no assurance it can succeed, but at least TiVo will have a better chance, if there is still any chance at all.

The reason I specifically focused on the "siginificantly higher fees" is because I believe this high fees are one of the real reasons behind DirecTV not motivated to help TiVo to roll out this new DirecTiVo DVR. The high fees will have to be passed onto the consumers, but more importantly, the fundamental issue is, DirecTV does not need TiVo's technology, more importantly DirecTV is no longer at risk of being sued by TiVo, the CAFC ruling had practically said DISH no longer infringed TiVo's patent, the only thing against DISH was the violation of the disabling order. None of the other companies has such violation issue, therefore when the infringement threat is done, the risk is gone.

There is no reason they must pay TiVo a license fee to avoid litigation because of the court ruling. If under such condition, Comcast, or DirecTV still decides to continue to pay TiVo the old fees, then they will be more foolish than DISH, I hope that is not your conclusion.


----------



## I WANT MORE

How about you guys start a Comcast vs Tivo thread and move your conversation there?


----------



## jacmyoung

"I WANT MORE" said:


> How about you guys start a Comcast vs Tivo thread and move your conversation there?


Fair request. If by any chance in a future date we learn this agreement is terminated, can I come here and mention that this trend started with Comcast?

Come to think of it, since these threads are anticipation in nature, correct me if I am wrong, I am the only one trying to anticipate here. Everything else talked about here has been already known long ago therefore by definition they are not anticipations


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Fair request. If by any chance in a future date we learn this agreement is terminated, can I come here and mention that this trend started with Comcast?


You might as well blame it on the TiVo v. Echostar en banc hearing since we all know that will be the real reason anyway


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> You might as well blame it on the TiVo v. Echostar en banc hearing since we all know that will be the real reason anyway


How can I blame it when it is the very fundation on which I base my anticipation?


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> You made so many assumptions about the new Comcast deal without any facts for support, yet you accuse me of having no facts. I only made one conclusion which is supported by fact, the fact is, by definition, a license fee is assessed against the use of a licensee's (Comcast's) own device, which may or may not contain the licensor's (TiVo's) technology. Since the new agreement only specifies the use of the licensor's (TiVo's) own device, there is no way to assess a license fee against the use of such device, if you had read some of the court proceedings how a license fee may be determined, you would understand.
> 
> As far as the DirecTV deal, I never said if TiVo agreed to reduce or eliminate the "significantly higher" license fee DirecTV has to pay, all the sudden this project will succeed, what I said was, if TiVo wants to have any chance for it to succeed, they can start by reducing the fees, it will be a start, there is still no assurance it can succeed, but at least TiVo will have a better chance, if there is still any chance at all.
> 
> The reason I specifically focused on the "siginificantly higher fees" is because I believe this high fees are one of the real reasons behind DirecTV not motivated to help TiVo to roll out this new DirecTiVo DVR. The high fees will have to be passed onto the consumers, but more importantly, the fundamental issue is, DirecTV does not need TiVo's technology, more importantly DirecTV is no longer at risk of being sued by TiVo, the CAFC ruling had practically said DISH no longer infringed TiVo's patent, the only thing against DISH was the violation of the disabling order. None of the other companies has such violation issue, therefore when the infringement threat is done, the risk is gone.
> 
> There is no reason they must pay TiVo a license fee to avoid litigation because of the court ruling. If under such condition, Comcast, or DirecTV still decides to continue to pay TiVo the old fees, then they will be more foolish than DISH, I hope that is not your conclusion.


Did you read the article I linked? Obviously not, because it specifically backs the idea they are still paying a licensed fee still, in addition to the new deal to sell the actual tivo units, and all my other statements. It even mention the licensing deal can be renewed in a couple years until 2019... I don't know how much more specific one needs to be...

I know exactly what a licensing fee is and how it works... Again, read the article I linked too... I think you missed it.

They also specifically say that COMCAST will be delivering these and selling these. Do you think Tivo is paying them to carry them on their trucks and offer them for sale? Not a chance.. Tivo may be incompetent in creating software and hitting deadlines, but they aren't idiots...

Dish dvrs infringing or not have nothing to do with directv receivers and how they work and if they would be considered infringing or not. Period. There is no room for debate on that. They are completely different devices, with different software makers, so who knows if they would or not. This assumption is just totally incorrect.

And the new higher fees will be paid directly by the subs, in the form of a new tivo fee on the bill. Directv will probably even get a part of that fee, so again, I don't see how lowering that would change anything. Tivo thinks their product is worth so much money per month, and that's what they want charged for it. This will not be like before where the dvr fee included all tivo dvrs. That's not going to happen this time around. Charging Directv less would directly lower their income on this.

Nowhere in the statement released several years ago did I see that it said Directv would be paying Tivo more for what was then and still is the current Tivo's, or the licensing fees they have been paying them. NOWHERE. The statement specifically said that the significantly higher fees would be coming from the NEW HD DVR that still hasn't been released. Therefore, if anything, I would guess Directv is already paying on the low end of the licensing fees, since they made their original agreement with tivo so long ago, and before Tivo had agreements with anyone else. That part of the new agreement simply said it was an extension of the agreement...

Now if they don't sell, they might try and lower it for the consumer so they can sell more to them, but I highly doubt that. I fully expect a 5 a month per box tivo fee. Even added with a 6 a month lease fee, that's still less than a standalone tivo costs per box per month and yet way more than Tivo is making on the current boxes...


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Tivo may be incompetent in creating software and hitting deadlines, but they aren't idiots...


  

Isn't a company that owned 90%+ of the DVR market at one time and became a household name only to blow it all by not hitting deadlines / releasing buggy software the exact definition of idiot??

Idiot  : See TiVo;

Dictionary.com seems to concur :grin:


----------



## fasTLane

Deadlines? Try deadbeats, as in Charlie Ergen, chief thief at Dishnet.
You didn't have to go to China to find patent disregard for intel property.
Tivo *was *idiotic for not knowing what the "competition" was capable of.
Amazing that Tivo is still in business, considering.


----------



## SledgeHammer

fasTLane said:


> Deadlines? Try deadbeats, as in Charlie Ergen, chief thief at Dishnet.
> You didn't have to go to China to find patent disregard for intel property.
> Tivo *was *idiotic for not knowing what the "competition" was capable of.
> Amazing that Tivo is still in business, considering.


You don't understand the U.S. Patent system. Any average shmuck can go and get a patent. What most people don't get about patents is that there is no "patent police". You have to enforce your patents yourself on your own dime. That means trolling around the world making sure that nobody is violating... and once you find a violator, you actually have to have deep enough pockets to enforce it in a drawn out court battle. Tivo was a real corporation with money and ended up winning the court battle, but it pretty much destroyed the company in the process.

Dish lost in court, but they really ended up winning. They got the patents for $500M spread out over 14 yrs or whatever it was. Big whoop. Dish doesn't care, thats chump change to them.

They could have probably gotten them a lot cheaper had they buckled under like DTV and allowed Tivo to make a non existant Dish DVR .

If you had a patent and Microsoft ripped it off, chances are pretty good you couldn't do a damn thing about it. Even if you could afford a lawyer (not saying you can't, don't mean to insult you or anything), Microsofts lawyers could certainly beat up your lawyer.


----------



## fasTLane

I do understand. Tivo obviously did not.


----------



## jacmyoung

"inkahauts" said:


> Did you read the article I linked? Obviously not, because it specifically backs the idea they are still paying a licensed fee still, in addition to the new deal to sell the actual tivo units, and all my other statements. It even mention the licensing deal can be renewed in a couple years until 2019... I don't know how much more specific one needs to be...
> 
> I know exactly what a licensing fee is and how it works... Again, read the article I linked too... I think you missed it.
> 
> They also specifically say that COMCAST will be delivering these and selling these. Do you think Tivo is paying them to carry them on their trucks and offer them for sale? Not a chance.. Tivo may be incompetent in creating software and hitting deadlines, but they aren't idiots...
> 
> Dish dvrs infringing or not have nothing to do with directv receivers and how they work and if they would be considered infringing or not. Period. There is no room for debate on that. They are completely different devices, with different software makers, so who knows if they would or not. This assumption is just totally incorrect.
> 
> And the new higher fees will be paid directly by the subs, in the form of a new tivo fee on the bill. Directv will probably even get a part of that fee, so again, I don't see how lowering that would change anything. Tivo thinks their product is worth so much money per month, and that's what they want charged for it. This will not be like before where the dvr fee included all tivo dvrs. That's not going to happen this time around. Charging Directv less would directly lower their income on this.
> 
> Nowhere in the statement released several years ago did I see that it said Directv would be paying Tivo more for what was then and still is the current Tivo's, or the licensing fees they have been paying them. NOWHERE. The statement specifically said that the significantly higher fees would be coming from the NEW HD DVR that still hasn't been released. Therefore, if anything, I would guess Directv is already paying on the low end of the licensing fees, since they made their original agreement with tivo so long ago, and before Tivo had agreements with anyone else. That part of the new agreement simply said it was an extension of the agreement...
> 
> Now if they don't sell, they might try and lower it for the consumer so they can sell more to them, but I highly doubt that. I fully expect a 5 a month per box tivo fee. Even added with a 6 a month lease fee, that's still less than a standalone tivo costs per box per month and yet way more than Tivo is making on the current boxes...


Read your own link again and quote me exactly where it mentioned Comcast will still pay TiVo a license fee. On the other hand the article clearly linked the new agreement to the TiVo v. E* case, specifically their settlement, the article also said the new Comcast deal was a scaled back deal from the old one

Just because Comcast might provide truck roll to install the TiVo Premiere DVRs doesn't mean they will pay TiVo a license fee. Again by definition there cannot be a license fee paid to TiVo on a TiVo device.

How big they got from the last deal and how big they will get from this new deal, when the article called it a scaled back deal? Did you read the article?

TiVo realized their negotiating leverage had been stripped away after the en banc ruling, only then they would agree to a scaled back deal. TiVo could have easily continued to collect "technology fees" in the tens of millions. Now they have to wait till next round when their Premiere DVRs actually hit certain markets, and hoping people who walk in a Best Buy in that market will be willing to pay all those TiVo subscription fees plus the Comcast subscription fees.


----------



## jacmyoung

"fasTLane" said:


> I do understand. Tivo obviously did not.


TiVo understands to force other companies to pay those fees they need to win the lawsuits.


----------



## SledgeHammer

What happened to this thread? No posts in 2 days? We're trying to kill time at work here people!!


----------



## Shades228

SledgeHammer said:


> What happened to this thread? No posts in 2 days? We're trying to kill time at work here people!!


TiVo is putting out a statement letting you know that anticipation of the TiVo is coming soon.


----------



## newsposter

party time

Washington, D.C. (May 25, 2011) -- TiVo said yesterday that the launch of a new DIRECTV/TiVo HD DVR is "getting close."

In a call with Wall Street analysts following the release of its first quarter report, TiVo CEO Tom Rogers said: "In terms of DIRECTV, we're making real progress. We're getting close there. They are testing the product. We will launch relatively soon, I hope."

He added: "Part of the reason that it's taking somewhat longer is a bunch of additional feature work that we were doing there. I can't comment on specific features of DIRECTV such as multi-room.


----------



## Doug Brott

He can't comment on Multi-Room because it's not in there ..


----------



## Doug Brott

Oh, and "getting close" is code for something I'll let you guys figure out ..


----------



## sigma1914

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, and "getting close" is code for something I'll let you guys figure out ..


Soon.


----------



## Doug Brott

sigma1914 said:


> Soon.


You forgot something .. !rolling


----------



## sigma1914

Doug Brott said:


> You forgot something .. !rolling


"soon"

?


----------



## Kevin F

Wait, Doug I know this is probably a stupid question but are you testing out the new TiVo?


----------



## Jeremy W

Kevin F said:


> Wait, Doug I know this is probably a stupid question but are you testing out the new TiVo?


Doug has said that he is not. However even if he was, he wouldn't be able to say it. So yes, stupid question. :lol:


----------



## Kevin F

"Jeremy W" said:


> Doug has said that he is not. However even if he was, he wouldn't be able to say it. So yes, stupid question. :lol:


Hahah yeah I guess I should have rethought my question before posting . I stopped by the thread for the first time in a while and didn't ever see his previous posts.

Thanks
Kevin


----------



## Doug Brott

Kevin F said:


> Wait, Doug I know this is probably a stupid question but are you testing out the new TiVo?


I promise .. I do not have the new TiVo in my house, nor have have ever had one in my house. I do still have an SAT-T60 that my daughter uses daily.


----------



## Kevin F

"Doug Brott" said:


> I promise .. I do not have the new TiVo in my house, nor have have ever had one in my house. I do still have an SAT-T60 that my daughter uses daily.


Thanks for the info Doug. I fully respect your word and would never doubt it.

Kevin


----------



## tonyd79

Doug Brott said:


> I promise .. I do not have the new TiVo in my house, nor have have ever had one in my house. I do still have an SAT-T60 that my daughter uses daily.


So you would have a great idea about how much the new Tivo is like the old.


----------



## Doug Brott

tonyd79 said:


> So you would have a great idea about how much the new Tivo is like the old.


That would assume I use the SAT-T60 .. The only time I deal with that box is when the modem connection is broken for so long that my daughter complains about the 250 messages in the mailbox saying "phone home." I rarely (read: once or twice a year at most) touch that box.

I've never touched one of the new ones.


----------



## fasTLane

tonyd79 said:


> So you would have a great idea about how much the new Tivo is like the old.


I caught that too.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Oh, and "getting close" is code for something I'll let you guys figure out ..


What about "I hope"? Does that mean you guys may not even be able to figure it out if you try?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> What about "I hope"? Does that mean you guys may not even be able to figure it out if you try?


The answer has already been given .. you got it wrong.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> The answer has already been given .. you got it wrong.


Rogers talking?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> You forgot something .. !rolling


You mean the word "not" in front?


----------



## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:


> You mean the word "not" in front?


Doug has changed from providing folks all the info he knew, to "you folks are on your own", I am a little worried about him now


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> Doug has changed from providing folks all the info he knew, to "you folks are on your own", I am a little worried about him now


Well, I think he got tired of getting proven wrong . He's "announced" release dates with good intentions, based on knowledge I'm sure... but Tivos always "screwed" him by not delivering.

BTW... HAHAHA... looks like all my predictions became true 1) we caught Bin Laden before the DirecTivo shipped AND 2) Duke Nukem Forever shipped before the DirecTivo...

Thats just freakin awesome IMO... I was only half joking when I made those predictions.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, I think he got tired of getting proven wrong . He's "announced" release dates with good intentions, based on knowledge I'm sure... but Tivos always "screwed" him by not delivering.
> 
> BTW... HAHAHA... looks like all my predictions became true 1) we caught Bin Laden before the DirecTivo shipped AND 2) Duke Nukem Forever shipped before the DirecTivo...
> 
> Thats just freakin awesome IMO... I was only half joking when I made those predictions.


I must have missed that. When did Doug ever post a release date for a TiVo? :scratchin

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

I have a general time frame, yes, but at this point I'm just going to say it's after July .. and it's supposed to be before the end of the year .. But who knows .. It's just a big mess at this point.

Rogers talking about it again is a good sign, though .. Just don't equate soon with "soon" and "getting close" is pretty much the latter.


----------



## Doug Brott

Mike Bertelson said:


> I must have missed that. When did Doug ever post a release date for a TiVo? :scratchin
> 
> Mike


more a time frame than a date .. but even that's been shot up pretty bad and we haven't even reached the beginning of my most recent time frame estimate. :lol:


----------



## bonscott87

Rogers said they were "getting close" over a year ago in an interview. I think he needs to fire his speech writer who keeps using reruns. LOL


----------



## SledgeHammer

Mike Bertelson said:


> I must have missed that. When did Doug ever post a release date for a TiVo? :scratchin
> 
> Mike


He's given us time frames numerous times. The last one was June/July, but later he said that ones dead.


----------



## ATARI

Soon . . . "It's ready when it's ready."


----------



## tonyd79

Is it TiVo yet?


----------



## KSbugeater

Is it possible they figured out that no one would want a DirecTiVo without MRV, so they went back to include it, and that's causing the delay?


----------



## Tom Robertson

KSbugeater said:


> Is it possible they figured out that no one would want a DirecTiVo without MRV, so they went back to include it, and that's causing the delay?


While that strategy is a great thought, the tea leaves are in agreement with magic 8 ball: nope.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## oldfantom

So, stopped following the thread a while back. But since I have, MRV live and D* Media Server announced. DirecTivo = Zombie Project? 

Maybe it is time to shoot this thing in the head?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Well, they did say the delay was due to them "doing additional feature work", so there is always hope.... but not a whole lot.


----------



## Doug Brott

KSbugeater said:


> Is it possible they figured out that no one would want a DirecTiVo without MRV, so they went back to include it, and that's causing the delay?


I actually hope this is true because I think everyone would be a lot happier if this were the case .. Unfortunately, I wouldn't get my hopes up. Maybe down the road, but not at the outset.


----------



## tonyd79

Doug Brott said:


> I actually hope this is true because I think everyone would be a lot happier if this were the case .. Unfortunately, I wouldn't get my hopes up. Maybe down the road, but not at the outset.


I would think that MRV on a Tivo box that was pretty much done would be a major, major revision. Tivo doesn't do MRV like DirecTV. They do copy. Yes, they handle streaming for Netflix, etc, which may be a lot alike in the code but that was all turned off for the DirecTiVo.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Even if the DTivo does include MRV, VOD, etc... so what? Its still going to be $5/month more then a box that already does that.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SledgeHammer said:


> Even if the DTivo does include MRV, VOD, etc... so what? Its still going to be $5/month more then a box that already does that.


If all you have are the TiVo DVRs then it's just one fee...I think.

With MRV it's a non-starter for me but there will be some people who will want it.

Mike


----------



## Shades228

Mike Bertelson said:


> If all you have are the TiVo DVRs then it's just one fee...I think.
> 
> With MRV it's a non-starter for me but there will be some people who will want it.
> 
> Mike


I would bet copious amounts that it is going to be per TiVo receiver.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Shades228 said:


> I would bet copious amounts that it is going to be per TiVo receiver.


That would be new?

It's been about four years since I've had a TiVo but it was one fee per account...of course that was through DIRECTV so that's my only experience with TiVo.

Mike


----------



## Shades228

Mike Bertelson said:


> That would be new?
> 
> It's been about four years since I've had a TiVo but it was one fee per account...of course that was through DIRECTV so that's my only experience with TiVo.
> 
> Mike


This would not be for the old legacy TiVo's but per HD TiVo. The old legacy ones are covered under the current DVR fee.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Shades228 said:


> This would not be for the old legacy TiVo's but per HD TiVo. The old legacy ones are covered under the current DVR fee.


If it's gonna be per DVR and per TiVo account, that would kill it before it gets started.

Seriously, who would pay that in the face of what it will lack?

Mike


----------



## inkahauts

I think its more likely they decided they want to get on hr24's rather than adding mrv...

MRV they can add anytime.. as is true with any other features. SO unless its something that's not working right, they are stupid to want to add more features. they need to get this thing launched.


----------



## Shades228

Mike Bertelson said:


> If it's gonna be per DVR and per TiVo account, that would kill it before it gets started.
> 
> Seriously, who would pay that in the face of what it will lack?
> 
> Mike


You wouldn't have a TiVo account just the DIRECTV fees on the DIRECTV bill.


----------



## newsposter

think tversity would work on the tivo? so then i can get rid of the HR20 and swap it for a new tivo


----------



## inkahauts

Shades228 said:


> You wouldn't have a TiVo account just the DIRECTV fees on the DIRECTV bill.


Tivo boxes will cost you more than a directv DVR per month. We know this is fact, they have said it, and its been possibly accidentally previewed, what we don't know is how they are going to do it... I suspect it will be per box, not per account, but if its not, the absolute cheapest I see coming would be an additional $5 per month per account on top of everything else you would have to pay like you do now. So $5 more a month for a box that doesn't do a lot of things the current ones do... Wheres the advantage for people who already have HR's? I can see those that don't, and those that maybe only have one TV in their house liking this idea, but otherwise, its illogical to pop for tivo... from a monetary and feature standpoint.


----------



## Tom Robertson

In theory, if it is per box, I could see the pricing be $3 per month extra.

If per house, I would suspect it would be more than $3 per month.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Shades228 said:


> You wouldn't have a TiVo account just the DIRECTV fees on the DIRECTV bill.


Of course but I was just trying to differentiate between what DIRECTV charges and what would apply to the TiVo DVR. 

I honestly can't understand why they would charge per DVR and not per household (like that better?:grin.

Leaving out features like MRV and charging an additional fee beyond the DIRECTV would charges would be a tough sell as it is. IMHO, a fee per box would be the final straw. It'll be over before it begins...it's almost is now.

Mike


----------



## Guest

If they go with the old software and still charge Tivo fee ontop of the HD and mirroring fee what's the point?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

CraigerCSM said:


> If they go with the old software and still charge Tivo fee ontop of the HD and mirroring fee what's the point?


They are charging an additional DVR fee on top of everything else...in addition to even the DIRECTV DVR fee.

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

CraigerCSM said:


> what's the point?


There's a subset of users that will pay for it. It's never going to be more than a niche product, and I would be very surprised if they ever made a successor. Mainly because this one is never going to ship. :lol:


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerCSM said:


> If they go with the old software and still charge Tivo fee ontop of the HD and mirroring fee what's the point?


Exactly. Its not even going to have many of the features you have on the "free" DirecTV DVR.


----------



## Davenlr

SledgeHammer said:


> Exactly. Its not even going to have many of the features you have on the "free" DirecTV DVR.


But it will have one feature missing from the DirecTv DVRs that a lot of us like, Suggestions.
There are lots of people that will post that it is the first thing they turn off, but I personally love the feature.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Jeremy W said:


> Mainly because this one is never going to ship. :lol:


... I was gonna say... you have to actually ship a product before you can have a successor.

I was in the 95%+ NEVER SHIP camp, but that comment from DirecTV last week swung me down to the 90%+ NEVER SHIP camp.

Since my last two wild predictions actually came true (Duke Nuken Forever ships before the DTivo & we catch Bin Laden before the DTivo ships), I'm going to make another crazy prediction: NBC will have a new hit show before this thing ships... Ok... that one might be a little too out there .


----------



## SledgeHammer

Davenlr said:


> But it will have one feature missing from the DirecTv DVRs that a lot of us like, Suggestions.
> There are lots of people that will post that it is the first thing they turn off, but I personally love the feature.


Ok, but would you rather have Suggestions and more SLs over MRV? Personally, I don't use any of those 3, but MRV seems like its going to be a deal breaker for most.


----------



## tonyd79

"SledgeHammer" said:


> Ok, but would you rather have Suggestions and more SLs over MRV? Personally, I don't use any of those 3, but MRV seems like its going to be a deal breaker for most.


MRV! MRV! MRV!

I had poor mans MRV when all my sets were SD (RF cable and remote repeater). Then had nothing when I went all HD. Until MRV.


----------



## newsposter

SledgeHammer said:


> Ok, but would you rather have Suggestions and more SLs over MRV? .


definitely..otherwise how are you gonna tell how much space you have left on tivo without suggestions?

and more SLs are imperative...i hate the HR limits...i've caught stuff on tivo that i never deleted when it came back on..not so with HR..gotta babysit it and delete and add back every season..sigh:nono2:


----------



## Doug Brott

newsposter said:


> definitely..otherwise how are you gonna tell how much space you have left on tivo without suggestions?
> 
> and more SLs are imperative...i hate the HR limits...i've caught stuff on tivo that i never deleted when it came back on..not so with HR..gotta babysit it and delete and add back every season..sigh:nono2:


I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first comment .. the HR2x has a free space indicator and the TiVo should have had one. Using Suggestions as a free space indicator is definitely a workaround. Not a proud moment (in my mind) for TiVo. Now, if you're using suggestions for suggestions, then the feature is truly beneficial to you .. But as a free space indicator?

SLs are not an issue for everyone. I've never, in 5 years, gotten to 50 on one of my units, and I think only once did I exceed 40 which quickly dropped down as unwatched/canceled shows were removed. I do realize that it affects people differently but it's not the end-all. I'm still hopeful that the 50 SL limitation vanishes. Heck, maybe Sledgehammer will use that as one of his "no way" predictions that might come true before the new DIRECTV TiVo is available.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> Heck, maybe Sledgehammer will use that as one of his "no way" predictions that might come true before the new DIRECTV TiVo is available.




I'm sure DTV knows that people want more SLs. There has to be some technical reason why they can't add more. I mean, they had a technical reason for not adding DLB for a couple of years.


----------



## mkdtv21

What if I didn't have any other dvr's but just the one HD Tivo. Would I still have to pay both the $7.00 and the $5.00 or just the $5.00 per month. I'm kind of confused by this.


----------



## bonscott87

mkdtv21 said:


> What if I didn't have any other dvr's but just the one HD Tivo. Would I still have to pay both the $7.00 and the $5.00 or just the $5.00 per month. I'm kind of confused by this.


We don't really know for sure since it's not released. But everything seems to indicate you'll pay the DVR fee and an *additional* Tivo fee. Even if you have just one Tivo based unit and that's it. Still cheaper then a stand alone Tivo at $20 a month now I think was last I saw.


----------



## SledgeHammer

mkdtv21 said:


> What if I didn't have any other dvr's but just the one HD Tivo. Would I still have to pay both the $7.00 and the $5.00 or just the $5.00 per month. I'm kind of confused by this.


Most likely the DVR fee AND the Tivo fee.


----------



## JBernardK

Many of you are thinking from your current situation--perhaps HR24 and MRV. But someone who is adding a DVR, or a new customer, may choose the TiVo because you can not choose the HR model you want. You may get a slow DVR with a small hard disk. 

At least with the TiVo you will know what you are getting.


----------



## bonscott87

JBernardK said:


> Many of you are thinking from your current situation--perhaps HR24 and MRV. But someone who is adding a DVR, or a new customer, may choose the TiVo because you can not choose the HR model you want. You may get a slow DVR with a small hard disk.
> 
> At least with the TiVo you will know what you are getting.


Which is actually the same "slow" HR22 hardware. :lol:


----------



## JBernardK

bonscott87 said:


> Which is actually the same "slow" HR22 hardware. :lol:


Do we know for sure its the hardware that is slow? It could be the software.


----------



## tonyd79

JBernardK said:


> Do we know for sure its the hardware that is slow? It could be the software.


It might be some of that but since other boxes running the same software are not slow, the hardware is mighty suspect.


----------



## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:


> I was in the 95%+ NEVER SHIP camp, but that comment from DirecTV last week swung me down to the 90%+ NEVER SHIP camp.


What did DirecTV say last week?


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> What did DirecTV say last week?


They said something like "its coming soon" and the delay was because we "went back to do some more feature work"... I don't have the exact quotes on hand, but that was the jist of it. It made it sound like the delay was because they knew they had to flesh it out a bit to be competetive.

But then Doug came out and said it still doesn't have MRV, so who knows...


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> What did DirecTV say last week?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2787680#post2787680


----------



## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:


> They said something like "its coming soon" and the delay was because we "went back to do some more feature work"... I don't have the exact quotes on hand, but that was the jist of it. It made it sound like the delay was because they knew they had to flesh it out a bit to be competetive.
> 
> But then Doug came out and said it still doesn't have MRV, so who knows...


I thought that was TiVo's Rogers saying, or was it quoted from DirecTV? I was under the impression DirecTV had not said one word about this thing for ages


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I thought that was TiVo's Rogers saying, or was it quoted from DirecTV? I was under the impression DirecTV had not said one word about this thing for ages


Do you feel special now? I think most of us understood what he was referring to even if the specifics are slightly off.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Yeah, my bad. It was Tivo's Rogers. I just didn't feel like looking up the exact quote . Either way, it was just PR spin.


----------



## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:


> Yeah, my bad. It was Tivo's Rogers. I just didn't feel like looking up the exact quote . Either way, it was just PR spin.


I learned to take DirecTV's PR spin more seriously than TiVo's, not all PR spins are treated the same

As an example, Doug places what I have to say at the very bottom of all spins, he then reminds me from time to time why I should feel special about his treatment of my spin


----------



## ndole

jacmyoung said:


> I learned to take DirecTV's PR spin more seriously than TiVo's, not all PR spins are treated the same
> 
> As an example, Doug places what I have to say at the very bottom of all spins, he then reminds me from time to time why I should feel special about his treatment of my spin


I'll say, that you probably bug Doug more than you do most other ppl because _he_ can't put you on ignore


----------



## LameLefty

JBernardK said:


> Do we know for sure its the hardware that is slow? It could be the software.


Among the current DVRs, I've got an HR20-700, HR21-700, HR22-100, and an HR24-500. The HR22 is slow. It's better than it was when I got it a couple years ago (software) but still loads slower than the other legacy HR2x's (hardware).


----------



## jacmyoung

ndole_mbnd said:


> I'll say, that you probably bug Doug more than you do most other ppl because _he_ can't put you on ignore


I wouldn't say bugging or can't ignore, rather some form of co-dependency, like the relationship between TiVo DVRs and the TiVo users


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> I wouldn't say bugging or can't ignore


Most people probably would, though. :lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:


> Most people probably would, though. :lol:


Most people have been bugging Doug to tell them when the new DirecTiVo will roll out, for the last two years If only they did not ignore me they probably would not have bugged Doug so much


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok, let's talk about the TiVo and not each other.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## markrogo

If it ships without multi-room it's so unbelievably DOA, it's beyond sad.


----------



## jappleboy

I know this has been asked some ware on this thread but can you have both the Directv DVR and the TIVO DVR


----------



## litzdog911

jappleboy said:


> I know this has been asked some ware on this thread but can you have both the Directv DVR and the TIVO DVR


Yes.


----------



## Doug Brott

markrogo said:


> If it ships without multi-room it's so unbelievably DOA, it's beyond sad.


There is a niche group that will appreciate this technology .. Although the longer it takes, the smaller that group gets. I know it's been in testing for a long time now (a really long time). The only thing I can think of as to why it keeps falling at this point is because things aren't working as good as they need to be working.

I will be absolutely shocked if MRV is in the first iteration of the TiVo software.


----------



## renov8r

jappleboy said:


> I know this has been asked some ware on this thread but can you have both the Directv DVR and the TIVO DVR


From a technical perspective there is nothing that would cause a DirecTV DVR to "malfunction" from being in the same household as any TIVO DVR.

I suspect your question could also be expanded to ask : Will getting a new DirecTV TIVO HD DVR enable it to interoperate on the same home network as non-TIVO DVRs? Such features would include "whole house" DVR with MRV.

The technical issues that could exist in such a scenario are significant enough to explain the multi-year delays that have plagued this roll out. While I have no first hand knowledge of such interoperability it is safe to assume that since both DirecTV and TIVO have expressed a desire to attract "premium fee" type customers with the new DirecTV TIVO HD DVR it would a safe bet that for such a strategy to succeed interoperability would be more than a "nice to have" and pretty much a "must work" feature...

There is, however, another school of thought -- if interoperability is not yet working perhaps it would be a safe business practice to allow DirecTV households to "trade-in" all existing non-TIVO HD DVRs. Should this happen the risk to consumers is that any functionality / stylistic features 'gained' by going all TIVO would be shortly (if not already...) superseded by existing / upgraded DirecTV DVRs...

Perhaps more answers will be revealed by DirecTV or TIVO, however neither organization seems to have much to gain be doing so. In fact it seems that lack of specific information is only barely on radar of the analysts that follow either firm.


----------



## Doug Brott

renov8r, reality doesn't always follow reason ..


----------



## JBernardK

Doug Brott said:


> The only thing I can think of as to why it keeps falling at this point is because things aren't working as good as they need to be working.


That didn't stop Directv from releasing the HR-10.


----------



## tonyd79

"JBernardK" said:


> That didn't stop Directv from releasing the HR-10.


Sometimes you learn from mistakes.

Sometimes not.


----------



## Jeremy W

JBernardK said:


> That didn't stop Directv from releasing the HR-10.


Or the HR20.


----------



## fikuserectus

We will never see this Tivo product. At this point does it even matter anymore?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

fikuserectus said:


> We will never see this Tivo product. At this point does it even matter anymore?


We know it's in testing right now and TiVo says it's coming so why do say we'll never see it?

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

Mike Bertelson said:


> We know it's in testing right now and TiVo says it's coming so why do say we'll never see it?


Because what Tivo says means almost nothing. They're either a bunch of pathological liars, or simply incompetent software developers. I tend to lean towards incompetence.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Mike Bertelson said:


> We know it's in testing right now and TiVo says it's coming so why do say we'll never see it?
> 
> Mike


DirecTV has pulled the plug on projects before. Also, we've established the fact that its kind of a back burner / side project for Tivo and not a high priority item.

I don't care about MRV, but I am fully aware that any box without it will be DOA because lots of people do care about MRV. I'm sure DirecTV / Tivo knows that too by now.

I can't fathom them putting out the box if it doesn't at least have MRV coming in 2 to 3 months if not in the first version.

Some have said this will be a niche product, but niche products are generally more expensive and this box is supposed to be cheaper ($99)... so I suppose it could be aimed at single TV households... don't see why a bar, etc. would need a DVR, so...

I dunno, even if I had 3 or 4 TVs, I dunno if I would find MRV useful enough to pay extra for it.


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> Some have said this will be a niche product, but niche products are generally more expensive and this box is supposed to be cheaper ($99)


$99 was the price that showed up on the test page, but you shouldn't put any stock in that.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> Because what Tivo says means almost nothing. They're either a bunch of pathological liars, or simply incompetent software developers. I tend to lean towards incompetence.





SledgeHammer said:


> DirecTV has pulled the plug on projects before. Also, we've established the fact that its kind of a back burner / side project for Tivo and not a high priority item.
> 
> I don't care about MRV, but I am fully aware that any box without it will be DOA because lots of people do care about MRV. I'm sure DirecTV / Tivo knows that too by now.
> 
> I can't fathom them putting out the box if it doesn't at least have MRV coming in 2 to 3 months if not in the first version.
> 
> Some have said this will be a niche product, but niche products are generally more expensive and this box is supposed to be cheaper ($99)... so I suppose it could be aimed at single TV households... don't see why a bar, etc. would need a DVR, so...
> 
> I dunno, even if I had 3 or 4 TVs, I dunno if I would find MRV useful enough to pay extra for it.


I find it very unlikely they would get to the point of actually doing beta testing just to cancel it. I don't care myself. Personally I think this DVR is big waste of time and until recently I would have bet good money that it was dead. I'm thinkin' it's finally gonna happen...at least there is more evidence to say it will at the moment.

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

Mike Bertelson said:


> I find it very unlikely they would get to the point of actually doing beta testing just to cancel it.


Except that's exactly what they did with the HDPC-20.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> Except that's exactly what they did with the HDPC-20.


I wasn't aware the HDCP-20 made it to field testing. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

Mike Bertelson said:


> I wasn't aware the HDCP-20 made it to field testing.


Yep, it did.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Jeremy W said:


> Yep, it did.


Thats the PC tuner card? Wasn't that killed because of piracy concerns?


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> Thats the PC tuner card? Wasn't that killed because of piracy concerns?


It was an external device, and I don't believe piracy was the reason it got killed.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> It was an external device, and I don't believe piracy was the reason it got killed.


Since we didn't field test it here at DBStalk, it didn't happen...  (Just kidding, it did happen and we didn't get to test it.)

Piracy didn't kill it. Though I think that was part of the package Microsoft was working on for WMP12 that was required for the HDPC-20. (And as far as I know, that part was fully delivered on time by Microsoft.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cwpomeroy

I loved my DirecTivo's and probably would have paid extra to have them a year or two ago... But nowadays, I'm not sure there is much that they could provide that would get additional bucks from my wallet.

Whatever they've been doing from a software perspective, there's no way they had any serious development going on the whole time. 

Not just DirecTivo... we have Cox in our area, those boxes are MIA as well. I think they essentially shut down R&D and just hunted patent money.


----------



## kmax

Many moons ago I owned the original 14 hour Tivo.

It was an awesome device in its time. In fact, upgraded to a Series 2.

Finally got HD, took me 2 minutes to explain to the wife the whole season pass thing on the HR20. I actually find the HR better in that regard. However, the Tivo guide was good.

Anyways, long story short...I find the HR DVR more than adequate. Although when I watch TV I notice DirecTV commercials promoting their MRV solution. 

Seems to me if they eventually release the Tivo that can't do MRV, then they will have to dump those commercials.


----------



## jacmyoung

"kmax" said:


> Seems to me if they eventually release the Tivo that can't do MRV, then they will have to dump those commercials.


No they don't have to. Although if the new DISH MRV DVR comes out at the same time, DISH might get to say, our new DVR does MRV, DirecTV's new DVR doesn't.


----------



## tonyd79

"jacmyoung" said:


> No they don't have to. Although if the new DISH MRV DVR comes out at the same time, DISH might get to say, our new DVR does MRV, DirecTV's new DVR doesn't.


Really? You think dish will target the TiVo?


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Although if the new DISH MRV DVR comes out at the same time, DISH might get to say, our new DVR does MRV, DirecTV's new DVR doesn't.


If you think that the Tivo, should it ever be released, will be marketed as "DirecTV's new DVR" then you're smoking something good.


----------



## Doug Brott

Yeah, I'd think it will be marketed alongside, but the default selection will be the current HD DVR platform. I'd think you'd specifically have to use the word 'TiVo' to go beyond that.


----------



## SledgeHammer

If the feature set & pricing is accurate (box pricing I mean, not the monthlys), you'd think it'd make sense for single TV households. A single TV household doesn't need MRV (lets not count the few dbstalk members who have 70 kajillion DVRs per TV so they can have unlimited SLs). HOWEVER, the extra $5 / month even kills it for that. Obviously $99 upfront is better then $199 upfront... but anybody with a 1st grade degree can see that after 20 months, the HR2x will be cheaper then the Tivo.

So really the only target audience is the people who feel they MUST have a Tivo or not watch TV. I'm sure there are still people like that. Heck, there are people who pay $150 to $200 per month for a single cell phone, so theres always people willing to pay more... but usually paying more gets you more. In this case paying more gets you a LOT less... so it just doesn't make sense any way you look at it.

Thats why I still believe this thing will never ship .

Then again... Tivo finally mentioned the project after 3 yrs of complete silence and I guess you could count DirecTVs web site "slip up" as them mentioning the box after 3 yrs of silence too.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> If you think that the Tivo, should it ever be released, will be marketed as "DirecTV's new DVR" then you're smoking something good.


No it is called "marketing"

Read carefully, I said what DISH might say, not what DirecTV might market this new DVR.

It might give DISH a chance to say we are moving forward, they are going backward, without ever mentioning TiVo.

It was a joke anyway, time to pull your head out of the sand


----------



## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:


> If the feature set & pricing is accurate (box pricing I mean, not the monthlys), you'd think it'd make sense for single TV households. A single TV household doesn't need MRV (lets not count the few dbstalk members who have 70 kajillion DVRs per TV so they can have unlimited SLs). HOWEVER, the extra $5 / month even kills it for that. Obviously $99 upfront is better then $199 upfront... but anybody with a 1st grade degree can see that after 20 months, the HR2x will be cheaper then the Tivo.
> 
> So really the only target audience is the people who feel they MUST have a Tivo or not watch TV. I'm sure there are still people like that. Heck, there are people who pay $150 to $200 per month for a single cell phone, so theres always people willing to pay more... but usually paying more gets you more. In this case paying more gets you a LOT less... so it just doesn't make sense any way you look at it.
> 
> Thats why I still believe this thing will never ship .
> 
> Then again... Tivo finally mentioned the project after 3 yrs of complete silence and I guess you could count DirecTVs web site "slip up" as them mentioning the box after 3 yrs of silence too.


TiVo has been mentioning it every quarter, it is DirecTV that has been silent.


----------



## Doug Brott

I'm sure that if DISH stated in a commercial that DIRECTV did not have MRV that there would be reason for some claims by DIRECTV against DISH. It's not going to happen. DISH would have to use the word 'TiVo' in the voice over along with HD DVR. To omit the word 'TiVo' would constitute lying in the ad - even DISH wouldn't go that far.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> I'm sure that if DISH stated in a commercial that DIRECTV did not have MRV that there would be reason for some claims by DIRECTV against DISH. It's not going to happen. DISH would have to use the word 'TiVo' in the voice over along with HD DVR. To omit the word 'TiVo' would constitute lying in the ad - even DISH wouldn't go that far.


Not really, saying "our new DVR can do MRV, the DirecTV's new DVR cannot" will not be untrue based on the above scenario of course.

When DirecTV said we do MRV, DISH's most expensive DVR doesn't even do that, that is not untrue either, even though DISH started the two-TV MRV years and years before DirecTV even thought of MRV.

It's marketing.


----------



## Doug Brott

DIRECTV qualified with "most expensive" .. Using the qualification "new" won't cut it. "new TiVo" would cut it.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> DIRECTV qualified with "most expensive" .. Using the qualification "new" won't cut it. "new TiVo" would cut it.


"New TiVo" could mislead people into thinking about a new standalone TiVo DVR such as a new version of the Premiere DVR. Maybe you meant "new DirecTiVo".

"New DirecTV DVR" technically cannot be untrue if, only if this new DirecTiVo comes out the same time the new DISH MRV DVR comes out. The qualification is that it is a newly rolled out DirecTV DVR, not those existing ones which do have MRV.

Similarly, it just so happens the most expensive DISH DVR does not do MRV, even though many of its less expensive DVRs do have MRV. All cleverly chosen words for marketing purpose.


----------



## Doug Brott

jac .. whatever .. Wanna wager on this one?

No way DISH gets away with saying "DIRECTV's new HD DVR doesn't have Multiroom View."

It's simply too "untrue" to be "true"


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> jac .. whatever .. Wanna wager on this one?
> 
> No way DISH gets away with saying "DIRECTV's new HD DVR doesn't have Multiroom View."
> 
> It's simply too "untrue" to be "true"


There is no wager because the new DirecTiVo, as it is described now, isn't likely to happen

Both DISH and DirecTV have gotten away with many things they said that could be argued as untrue, they even sued each other, often nothing came out of it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Please, let us get back to the topic: DIRECTV HD Receiver with TiVo.

Thank you.


----------



## markrogo

Doug Brott said:


> There is a niche group that will appreciate this technology .. Although the longer it takes, the smaller that group gets. I know it's been in testing for a long time now (a really long time). The only thing I can think of as to why it keeps falling at this point is because things aren't working as good as they need to be working.
> 
> I will be absolutely shocked if MRV is in the first iteration of the TiVo software.


There's a niche group that will appreciate a Tivo period. The overlap with said group is pretty darned high with the MRV group. Quite frankly, I can't even imagine giving up MRV functionality to get anything that Tivo does at this point and I doubt very much I'm alone -- let alone paying extra for it.

Aside from the fact that I'm excited about a many tuner box (again I doubt I'm alone), this just feels extraordinarily DOA. Fanboys alone will not make a product a success.


----------



## crazywater

SledgeHammer said:


> So really the only target audience is the people who feel they MUST have a Tivo or not watch TV. I'm sure there are still people like that.


That is an unfair statement. People who want TiVo over any of the the HR series DVRs want one because they think it works better, period. The other features will help them decide whether or not the TiVo is worth the price or not.


----------



## sigma1914

crazywater said:


> That is an unfair statement. People who want TiVo over any of the the HR series DVRs want one because they think it works better, period. The other features will help them decide whether or not the TiVo is worth the price or not.


Now, you're making unfair statements. How can you think the Tivo works better if it hasn't been released. Tivo could very easily be shaky & unreliable.


----------



## JBernardK

SledgeHammer said:


> If the feature set & pricing is accurate (box pricing I mean, not the monthlys), you'd think it'd make sense for single TV households. A single TV household doesn't need MRV (lets not count the few dbstalk members who have 70 kajillion DVRs per TV so they can have unlimited SLs). HOWEVER, the extra $5 / month even kills it for that. Obviously $99 upfront is better then $199 upfront... but anybody with a 1st grade degree can see that after 20 months, the HR2x will be cheaper then the Tivo.
> 
> .


Yet, whenever anyone brings up the 50 SL limit for the HRs, someone says just pay an extra $5 a month for another HR.


----------



## Doug Brott

sigma1914 said:


> Now, you're making unfair statements. How can you think the Tivo works better if it hasn't been released. Tivo could very easily be shaky & unreliable.


I suspect that it actually is shaky & unreliable .. hence the delay.


----------



## crazywater

sigma1914 said:


> Now, you're making unfair statements. How can you think the Tivo works better if it hasn't been released. Tivo could very easily be shaky & unreliable.


I have owned 7 TiVos including the TiVo Series 3 when I was with TWC. Comparing those to the current HR20-700 and HR22-100 that I currently have it is my opinion that the TiVo software and box performance is far superior to the HR boxes. Thats how.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This thread is so fun. I wonder what would happen if there really was something material to discuss.


----------



## sigma1914

crazywater said:


> I have owned 7 TiVos including the TiVo Series 3 when I was with TWC. Comparing those to the current HR20-700 and HR22-100 that I currently have it is my opinion that the TiVo software and box performance is far superior to the HR boxes. Thats how.


And I owned many more Tivo's than HRs, yet my results are completely different. I never had a HR fail...I lost 4 Tivos, though. Tivo constantly froze on me...like 20-25 times. It's been far less on the HRs...5-10 times.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> This thread is so fun. I wonder what would happen if there really was something material to discuss.


Like the announcement of the cancellation of this ridiculous project? :lol:


----------



## crazywater

sigma1914 said:


> And I owned many more Tivo's than HRs, yet my results are completely different. I never had a HR fail...I lost 4 Tivos, though. Tivo constantly froze on me...like 20-25 times. It's been far less on the HRs...5-10 times.


Well goody for you. I have my opinion and you have yours. And I still say that stating that people that want a TiVo or they won't watch TV is an unfair statement.


----------



## Doug Brott

MPEG4 is a new introduction to TiVo .. It took DIRECTV a bit of time to get that one completely right. Hopefully TiVo has had enough time to perfect it and hopefully DIRECTV even advised them on it so that it's not a problem when it comes out.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JBernardK said:


> Yet, whenever anyone brings up the 50 SL limit for the HRs, someone says just pay an extra $5 a month for another HR.


I don't... I say neither option is a really viable one. I don't use SLs period so they aren't a factor for me and I wouldn't pay $5 for a Tivo OR $3 for MRV. If I really wanted more then 50 SLs, there are tricks to combine them using the boolean logic.


----------



## tonyd79

"crazywater" said:


> Well goody for you. I have my opinion and you have yours. And I still say that stating that people that want a TiVo or they won't watch TV is an unfair statement.


It may have been a bit of an exaggeration buy I go over to TiVo community and see people desperately trying to patch up old TiVos they bought on eBay rather than just use the technology that exists today and it makes you wonder.


----------



## litzdog911

tonyd79 said:


> It may have been a bit of an exaggeration buy I go over to TiVo community and see people desperately trying to patch up old TiVos they bought on eBay rather than just use the technology that exists today and it makes you wonder.


True. But the traffic in the DirecTivo Forums at Tivo Community has really dropped off in the past several months. Now we're lucky to see even one new post a day there.


----------



## Doug Brott

yup .. it's significantly more active here in that regard.


----------



## jacmyoung

"litzdog911" said:


> True. But the traffic in the DirecTivo Forums at Tivo Community has really dropped off in the past several months. Now we're lucky to see even one new post a day there.


What dose that mean? People who owns TiVo DVRs have little interest in this new DirecTiVo, yet people here who mostly could care less about it are obsessed with it?


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> What dose that mean? People who owns TiVo DVRs have little interest in this new DirecTiVo, yet people here who mostly could care less about it are obsessed with it?


I can't speak for others in this thread, but I think this thing will suck as we know it today. Why do I stick around the thread then? Often, to kill time .


----------



## SledgeHammer

crazywater said:


> That is an unfair statement. People who want TiVo over any of the the HR series DVRs want one because they think it works better, period. The other features will help them decide whether or not the TiVo is worth the price or not.


People who want Tivo or they won't watch TV is hardly an unfair statement. Isn't that exactly what they are doing? Anybody who is holding on to an HR10-250 because they "must" have a Tivo is refusing to watch the dozens and dozens of MPEG4 only HD channels in protest.

I don't see how anybody could say the Tivo works "better" then the HR2x's. Sorry, I just can't. The feature set is almost identical. The Tivo has suggestions (which most people consider useless) vs. the HR2x having MRV (which most people consider awesome). The Tivo has more SLs, but there are workarounds to have more SLs on the HR2x box. The HR2x has PIG, the Tivo doesn't. Guides are virtually identical, etc. Even the remotes are kind of identical. The Tivo *USED* to be an open platform that you could hack on and mod if you were a techie, but now both the Tivo and the HR2x have been locked down. You can still add storage to both.

We have asked pretty much every person that has come to this thread and posted "the tivo is way better" whats so good about it. The answer that has come back 99% of the time is the SL limit. We then describe 3 or 4 workarounds, but still get "the tivo is way better". :grin:


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> What dose that mean? People who owns TiVo DVRs have little interest in this new DirecTiVo, yet people here who mostly could care less about it are obsessed with it?


You answered you own question ..


----------



## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:


> Anybody who is holding on to an HR10-250 because they "must" have a Tivo is refusing to watch the dozens and dozens of MPEG4 only HD channels in protest.


Some people are just not so interested in HD to bother, for the same reason they are not going to be excited about the new DirecTiVo especially if it will carry an extra fee.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I have both Tivo for Cable and HRs for D* and am insouciant on the subject.


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> Some people are just not so interested in HD to bother, for the same reason they are not going to be excited about the new DirecTiVo especially if it will carry an extra fee.


If you (or they) aren't interested in HD, why would you (or they) get the new DirecTivo?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I WANT MORE said:


> I have both Tivo for Cable and HRs for D* and am insouciant on the subject.


 I would have thought that currently using both would give you a unique perspective and opinion on the subject.

Mike


----------



## I WANT MORE

I WANT MORE said:


> I have both Tivo for Cable and HRs for D* and am insouciant on the subject.





Mike Bertelson said:


> I would have thought that currently using both would give you a unique perspective and opinion on the subject.
> 
> Mike


Yea. I can't say I have an issue with either.

I don't use the suggestions on Tivo. I do like the streaming options that Tivo offers. The Tivo is fast. (I have and XL as well as a premier). It takes forever to actually delete a program.

As far as D* is concerned, if it is not a 24 then it is really, really slow to the point that it is aggravating. I do use the MRV feature and like it.

I'll wait and see what kind of pricing surfaces. I would like to upgrade the 20, 22, and 23 that I have.


----------



## jacmyoung

I WANT MORE said:


> Yea. I can't say I have an issue with either.
> 
> I don't use the suggestions on Tivo. I do like the streaming options that Tivo offers. The Tivo is fast. (I have and XL as well as a premier). It takes forever to actually delete a program.
> 
> As far as D* is concerned, if it is not a 24 then it is really, really slow to the point that it is aggravating. I do use the MRV feature and like it.
> 
> I'll wait and see what kind of pricing surfaces. I would like to upgrade the 20, 22, and 23 that I have.


If you are using standalone TiVo DVRs, then your experience with TiVo may not be the same as the experience with a DirecTiVo DVR.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I had a 10-250.


----------



## Sixto

If I ever need to go with FiOS TV (I have Voice & 35/25 Internet today), then this would be perfect:http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/tivo-premiere-q-preview-announced-sort-of/​
Assuming, it was available to regular consumers, and it does what's described.

Still prefer an integrated approach, with a solution fully supported by the provider, but this is interesting.


----------



## tonyd79

Sixto said:


> If I ever need to go with FiOS TV (I have Voice & 35/25 Internet today), then this would be perfect:http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/tivo-premiere-q-preview-announced-sort-of/​
> Assuming, it was available to regular consumers, and it does what's described.
> 
> Still prefer an integrated approach, with a solution fully supported by the provider, but this is interesting.


I don't think you will see that with Fios. It is only provided by the cable company and I don't see Verizon doing that after all the time and money they spend on their own DVR.

As for doing what is described, I am sure it will, sort of kind of. Tivo has been big on promise and short on delivery lately but they do deliver something useful for those that need it.


----------



## Sixto

"tonyd79" said:


> I don't think you will see that with Fios. It is only provided by the cable company and I don't see Verizon doing that after all the time and money they spend on their own DVR.
> 
> As for doing what is described, I am sure it will, sort of kind of. Tivo has been big on promise and short on delivery lately but they do deliver something useful for those that need it.


Correct, was not assuming it would be provided by FiOS, they have their own supported solution.


----------



## fireponcoal

Fios whole home is pretty nice... Can't really see the difference with D* MRV but I guess that's the point.... I also can't see how the above would be useful alternative for Fios users to be honest. some folks gotta have a TiVo I guess.


----------



## Sixto

"fireponcoal" said:


> Fios whole home is pretty nice... Can't really see the difference with D* MRV but I guess that's the point.... I also can't see how the above would be useful alternative for Fios users to be honest. some folks gotta have a TiVo I guess.


FiOS did not allow more then one DVR server, and did not allow DVR-to-DVR MRV. At least this was with 1.8. Also couldn't replace the hard drive, or do eSATA. Currently supporting FiOS for family members, know it well. And DirecTV is better, one person's view.


----------



## fireponcoal

Fios will allow eSATA with 1.9(certain dvr's)... Thanks for the other info i was not aware of. With D* I only have one DVR and the same with Fios.


----------



## tonyd79

"fireponcoal" said:


> Fios will allow eSATA with 1.9(certain dvr's)... Thanks for the other info i was not aware of. With D* I only have one DVR and the same with Fios.


Whenever 1.9 gets out. They are working on 1.9a now.


----------



## fireponcoal

You said it. Sounds like we might get the new D* GUI before that happens.


----------



## tonyd79

"fireponcoal" said:


> You said it. Sounds like we might get the new D* GUI before that happens.


The race is on.


----------



## JBernardK

TiVo apparently has a 2 GB, 4 tuner Premier Elite box in the works for cable. Just wondering if there is anything that prevents Directv from offering a 4 tuner box? Does the SWM allow 4 tuners?


----------



## harsh

JBernardK said:


> Just wondering if there is anything that prevents Directv from offering a 4 tuner box? Does the SWM allow 4 tuners?


At some point (perhaps early 2012), DIRECTV is planning on releasing a five tuner multi-TV DVR.


----------



## LameLefty

Directv's SWiM allows for up to 8 tuners through a single line of RG6 coax. All 8 of those COULD be to a single 8-tuner box, if Directv and its manufacturing partners chose to make such a beast. With a SWiM16 module, you could have a 16 tuner box, but you'd need to run 2 separate lines of coax to it, a situation akin to older pre-SWiM installations for dual-tuner DVRs. SWiM was created (in no small part) to allow multi-tuner installations using existing 1-line coax runs, so I don't see anyone choosing to build and market a box with more than 8 tuners except perhaps for very highly specialized installations. And even then, it's much more likely to be cheaper and more cost effective to use more lower-capacity boxes than one super-expensive, single-point-of-failure box that can take down the whole system if (when!) it eventually dies.


----------



## ejjames

While visiting my parents, I had directv come out and replace a HR10-250 (TIVO) with a HR24-100, along with swapping out the lnb with swIm, DECA,whole home and internet ,( which they won't begin installing here until July 1st.) 

The HR20-100 can stay in the theater room. It's quite an upgrade for them, they even still had the old splitter/combiners to carry OTA and SAT on one wire, plus they only had one working tuner on the tivo. Locals over sat in the western ND DMA is 100 miles away, and doesn't offer FOX, so they get locals OTA, so I got them to give a $70 credit to order an AM21. On the bright side, they save $3 a month by not taking locals.

They have an ipad, so I can't wait to hook them up with that app.

At home, I'm still in the dark ages, my wife won't give up her 2 tivos, so I use the 20-700s. I've got 8 wires running to DVRs. I do have LAN connections and use DIRECTV2PC all the time. One foot in the present, another in the p-ast.

I have 2 HR20-700'S at home, and thought the speed was fine, but after spending time with the HR24...I'm jealous, that thing FLIES!


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## jacmyoung

"JBernardK" said:


> TiVo apparently has a 2 GB, 4 tuner Premier Elite box in the works for cable. Just wondering if there is anything that prevents Directv from offering a 4 tuner box? Does the SWM allow 4 tuners?


Let me take a stab at it. If there is anything that might prevent DirecTV from offering such an advanced TiVo box, assume they even want that to happen, would be the specific fine prints in the current agreement

Now if you don't mind I must take cover.


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## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Let me take a stab at it. If there is anything that might prevent DirecTV from offering such an advanced TiVo box, assume they even want that to happen, would be the specific fine prints in the current agreement


How about Tivo not wanting to do the extra work to get DirecTV's stuff working on Tivo's hardware, instead of DirecTV's?


jacmyoung said:


> Now if you don't mind I must take cover.


If you didn't post everything as if your answer is the only possible one, maybe you wouldn't have to take cover after every post.


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## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> How about Tivo not wanting to do the extra work to get DirecTV's stuff working on Tivo's hardware, instead of DirecTV's?


Getting DirecTV's stuff working on TiVo's hardware? Is this even allowed under the current agreement?


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## JoeTheDragon

JBernardK said:


> TiVo apparently has a 2 GB, 4 tuner Premier Elite box in the works for cable. Just wondering if there is anything that prevents Directv from offering a 4 tuner box? Does the SWM allow 4 tuners?


will that tivo box have tru2way or allvid? if not then in SDV cable system you may need as meny as 2 SDV USB tuners added on to it.


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## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Getting DirecTV's stuff working on TiVo's hardware? Is this even allowed under the current agreement?


probably not, but I don't think any of us have seen the contract ..


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## Doug Brott

JoeTheDragon said:


> will that tivo box have tru2way or allvid? if not then in SDV cable system you may need as meny as 2 SDV USB tuners added on to it.


I know this thread is a bit dead, but let's stay away from talking about TiVo on other platforms. This is really for the new DIRECTV TiVo, not the cable TiVo.


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## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> probably not, but I don't think any of us have seen the contract ..


Ok then, I think it is fair to say what Jeremy W proposed reason above is likely not the only possible one.

As far as TiVo hardware for the cable platform, I don't think it is impossible to have a similarly designed TiVo hardware for the DirecTV platform, although it seems more difficult and not being done before. Regardless it will likely require a new agreement with DirecTV for that to happen.


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## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Ok then, I think it is fair to say what Jeremy W proposed reason above is likely not the only possible one.


When did I or anyone else say that it was? :nono2: You're the only one that comes in here posting stuff as if any other possible reasons are simply ridiculous.


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## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> When did I or anyone else say that it was? :nono2: You're the only one that comes in here posting stuff as if any other possible reasons are simply ridiculous.


Actually, you were also speaking in the negative .. somehow when jac responded he made it sound like you were talking in the positive .. There's a phrase for that ..


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## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, you were also speaking in the negative .. somehow when jac responded he made it sound like you were talking in the positive .. There's a phrase for that ..


You have to provide that phrase, I don't know what it is, but I have a formula for your above statement:

Sum (negative and positive) = zero <> ridiculous


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## Doug Brott

Straw man, straw.


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## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Straw man, straw.


Is this how you define the new DirecTiVo now?


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## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> Is this how you define the new DirecTiVo now?


"Vaporware" would be a more accurate term for any new Directv-compatible TiVo these days.

Rather, "strawman" refers instead to your recent posts in this thread. :nono:

For the unfamiliar . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman


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## Stuart Sweet

Guys, I'd really like to end this thread on topic. You'll have a whole new chance to be grumpy in the new thread opening July 1.


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## Tom Robertson

In honor of the fine gentlemoderator I'll summarize my own thoughts:

The DIRECTV TiVo is coming. 
But I will not say "soon" or "anon". 
And it will not arrive in Q2 2011.
So there will be a Q3 thread.

I also think TiVo and DIRECTVs devotees will not be happy with the initial launch. I hope they will be more happy with the update that I hope will come. I won't say "soon after" either, by the way.

Cheers,
Tom


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## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> In honor of the fine gentlemoderator I'll summarize my own thoughts:
> 
> The DIRECTV TiVo is coming.
> But I will not say "soon" or "anon".
> And it will not arrive in Q2 2011.
> So there will be a Q3 thread...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You sounded like TiVo's CEO, who has been saying so for nearly three years, that is just ridiculous


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## Stuart Sweet

I can say with metaphysical certitude that Mr. Robertson is not TiVo's CEO. But I do echo his sentiments. If this is my last post in this thread, let it be to say that I now expect the THR22 to see the light of day for the first time in December, with general availability toward the end of the first quarter of 2012. Will it be a huge success in the market? Doubtful, after a delay that is longer than the product life of most DVRs. But it will be here if you want it.


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## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> I can say with metaphysical certitude that Mr. Robertson is not TiVo's CEO. But I do echo his sentiments. If this is my last post in this thread, let it be to say that I now expect the THR22 to see the light of day for the first time in December, with general availability toward the end of the first quarter of 2012. Will it be a huge success in the market? Doubtful, after a delay that is longer than the produ ct life of most DVRs. But it will be here if you want it.


Is THR22 the model number for this TiVo box? Sounded from a few people it will be sooner than December.


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## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Is THR22 the model number for this TiVo box?


Yes...at least the first part of it.


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## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> Is THR22 the model number for this TiVo box?


Currently however I consider it a place holder much like the HMC30 was.

With the current feature set I can't see a point in releasing this, like I posted before, but I still think Q4 2011 is optimistic. I could see a "teaser" launch at best in December and a real roll out Q2 2012 if they choose to actually allow it to market.


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## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> You sounded like TiVo's CEO, who has been saying so for nearly three years, that is just ridiculous


Wait just a second. 

Tom Rogers has given dates for this thing, I've pretty much refused to. I think I'm quite different. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Stuart Sweet

We believe strongly that the new device will be the THR22-100, based on HR22-100 internals.


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## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Wait just a second.
> 
> Tom Rogers has given dates for this thing, I've pretty much refused to. I think I'm quite different.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Stuart said you and he shared the same sentiments, he then immediately provided a December date, so yes I think you have given a date, unless you want to dismiss Stuart's sentiments


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## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> We believe strongly that...


Now that is definitely Rogers talking.


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## Stuart Sweet

Mr. Young, I'm not quite sure what is generating this perception but I am my own person and certainly do not speak for TiVo Inc. Please refrain from confusing me with other people.


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## newsposter

i 'm a disappointed about 2012, wanted it now..sniff sniff


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## Doug Brott

I can tell you the "new" date that I've last been told is in 2011 .. but I'm simply not going to post anything about it now .. The target continues to move.


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## RobertE

Doug Brott said:


> I can tell you the "new" date that I've last been told is in 2011 .. but I'm simply not going to post anything about it now .. The target continues to move.


They have got to be getting pretty close to, if not already crossed, that line of "why bother". The ROI is shrinking by the minute.


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## Davenlr

Honestly, after using the Tivo Premier for 5 months, I so missed my HR24 that I went back to DirecTv, even though I am missing about 3 channels I watched in HD... The extra channels were just not worth the dumbed down, Tivo UI. 
While 5 months ago I would have eagerly bought a DirecTv HD Tivo, you couldnt give me one after seeing the latest incarnation of Tivo's own top of the line box.


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## Shades228

RobertE said:


> They have got to be getting pretty close to, if not already crossed, that line of "why bother". The ROI is shrinking by the minute.


The new TiVo is like Duke Nukem. The nostolgia keeps it alive until the final product is used.


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## jacmyoung

RobertE said:


> They have got to be getting pretty close to, if not already crossed, that line of "why bother". The ROI is shrinking by the minute.


TiVo has never turned a profit on the selling of its DVRs or DVR services, can there be a shrinking ROI?


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## Doug Brott

Shades228 said:


> The new TiVo is like Duke Nukem. The nostolgia keeps it alive until the final product is used.


Nostalgia is correct .. Folks (including me) really liked TiVo when they came out. It was great. The thing that I hated the most was when my Series 1 became obsolete after about 18 months. No more updates, no more cool features. Had to get the Series 2 for that.

The HR2x have been great in that all features are available on all (OK, not quite .. no 3D on the 20s, and OTA is an add-on, but I don't use OTA ). I'm pretty sure many of the diehards have moved on at this point, but there are still some holdouts .. Those that have SD TiVos will look to upgrade.


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## balboadave

Doug Brott said:


> Nostalgia is correct .. Folks (including me) really liked TiVo when they came out. It was great. The thing that I hated the most was when my Series 1 became obsolete after about 18 months. No more updates, no more cool features. Had to get the Series 2 for that.
> 
> The HR2x have been great in that all features are available on all (OK, not quite .. no 3D on the 20s, and OTA is an add-on, but I don't use OTA ). I'm pretty sure many of the diehards have moved on at this point, but there are still some holdouts .. Those that have SD TiVos will look to upgrade.


Isn't that the main reason for this new TiVo unit? To give all of the existing Series 1 and 2 customers a path to upgrade? For them, this will be an improvement, as they won't know what they're missing with the HR series. DirecTV might even require them to upgrade.


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## I WANT MORE

Davenlr said:


> Honestly, after using the Tivo Premier for 5 months, I so missed my HR24 that I went back to DirecTv, even though I am missing about 3 channels I watched in HD... The extra channels were just not worth the dumbed down, Tivo UI.
> While 5 months ago I would have eagerly bought a DirecTv HD Tivo, you couldnt give me one after seeing the latest incarnation of Tivo's own top of the line box.


I would be happy to provide you my mailing address via pm if you would like to ship me your "dumbed down" Tivo.


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## Stuart Sweet

Thanks for the memories... this one's now closed.


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