# Help me get Packer games again



## Jon Robert (Sep 18, 2010)

Alright I will attempt to provide the needed info. Since we went digital we lost all stations.

ps I don't have 5 posts so I can't post functional urls so you have to cut and paste and delete h's

Our location is a cabin in the trees near Wyeville Wisconsin mapped here hhhhhhhhhhttp://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da362ea937a0f07 - probably don't work but map Wyeville WI at TVfool

I want channel Fox 17 out of La Cross the 5th one down the list. At 51 miles but with hills between us. I am 300 feet higher elevation than La Crosse but don't know their tower height.

I have experimented with a common UHF/VHF combo antenna and can get channel 13 and 8 with the mid to good signal indication on the converter box when I rotate the directional antenna correctly and it is mounted on top of a 26 foot extension ladder - slightly leaning. 

This mount also gives me a "bad" signal for Fox 17 as opposed to no signal when mounted lower at about 12 feet.

I am going to install a 40' tower.

I have read the internet stuff and since my priority is Fox 17 I would like 2 things

1) Mount the common combo antenna with a rotor on a side protruding shelf bracket off the 40 foot tower and run a separate RG-6 labeled "NBC Sunday night football" to screw into the TV for NBC 13 and use the Rotor to get whatever else comes in. I pretty much have this mission under control

2)(My dilemma) I want a dedicated and not to rotate antenna optimized for Channel 17 Fox and the best I can come up with is this: The Channel Master 4248 found at hhhhhhhhttp://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4248.html 
Again have a separate RG-6 and labeled "Fox Packer games" to screw in when needed.

The reason I think it is best is because of this web sites chart "Net Gain for some common UHF-only antennas" found at hhhhhhhttp://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

My main question is before I commit to the Channel Master 4248 is there a better unit for my main mission - channel 17 optimized permanent non rotating antenna? Remember I plan on a 40' tower and can add a taller mast of say 20'

Thanks


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## Gloria_Chavez (Aug 11, 2008)

I'll help you out with the URL's. Hope someone can be help. Many brilliant engineers frequent this forum.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=a3629c6d8bb261


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

I would first suggest that you use the maps option in TVFool.com and find your cabin using satellite maps and report the TVFool.com report from that location.

The generic location you gave shows one edge reception fo FOX WLAX-DT 25.1 (17) with NM of 13.4 @ 40 ft AGL which is definitely doable, but exact loaction would be better.

In hilly and especially mountainous terrain a little horizonal movement can make a big difference in your signal and elevation is gold.

Otherwise, according to HDTVPrimer.com, the new 4228 has a few issues and it appears that the Winegard HD-8800 (assuming it is very similar to older model PR-8800) and the Antennas Direct 91XG are among the best on the low end of the UHF spectrum.

If wind could be a problem I'd go with the 91XG (yagi style) over the 4228 or 8800 (bow-tie style) which catch more wind.

If you're industrious, you can build a dedicated channel 17 UHF yagi and probably get even better performance.


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## Jon Robert (Sep 18, 2010)

Jim5506 said:


> I would first suggest that you use the maps option in TVFool.com and find your cabin using satellite maps and report the TVFool.com report from that location.
> 
> The generic location you gave shows one edge reception fo FOX WLAX-DT 25.1 (17) with NM of 13.4 @ 40 ft AGL which is definitely doable, but exact loaction would be better.
> 
> ...


I have in fact been feverishly search for instructions on how to "build a dedicated channel 17 UHF yagi " But can't seem to find any criteria. Anyone know a web site?

And I found the tower height etc at hhhhhhhttp://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WLAX and it don't seem to be very much of a problem


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

Jon Robert said:


> My main question is before I commit to the Channel Master 4248 is there a better unit for my main mission - channel 17 optimized permanent non rotating antenna?


#1. The HDTV primer shows that the PR-8800 works better than the 4248 on channel 17. Today that antenna is the model HD-8800.

#2. Have you tried a preamp yet?

#3. The tvfool report that you posted says that the location is approximate. Use this tool instead: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90 When the arrow is over your cabin and the height is at 40', click on the "make radar report" box. Repost that URL.

#4. If a single HD-8800 won't work, try this, but with a pair of HD-8800s. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html

#5. I like the tower idea, but a careful "walking the roof" might get you the same results for less money. http://www.channelmasterstore.com/v...enna installation manual - channel master.pdf See page 6.

#6. As a Bills fan in Albany I tried to get DTV from Syracuse, 109 miles away. Even a 125' tower didn't make any difference. Once you're above the trees it doesn't matter much. But hey, I can see analog LPTV stations from 55 miles away.

#7. To design your own channel 17 antenna try this calculator http://k7mem.150m.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/yagi_vhf.html
Channel 17 has a center frequency of 491 MHZ. In round numbers, the dimensions would be 13% smaller than the examples on 432 MHz.


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## Jon Robert (Sep 18, 2010)

Cool - I just learned to grab and move the pointer. 2 miles N and 2 miles E of Wyeville The line to the tower passes through Wyeville anyway. " WLAX-DT 17 (25.1) Fox 55.0 1Edge 14.4"


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Take the NM(DB) reading, approx 15.5 for channel 17 at your location. You need to be above 0 at your TV. Calculate: (NM(db) + the gain of your antenna at ch 17) - (balun loss, coax loss, splitter loss, tuner loss). If the number is > 0, then you have a signal.
In your case, if you only want this one channel, the cheapest route would be a XG91 (15.5 + 15) = 30.5, plus a Channel master 7777 preamp +24db after noise loss = 54.5db signal. Then you can use just about any RG6 coax, and have an acceptable signal at your receiver. If you wanted to, you could also plug in the VHF antenna to the second input on the amp, and point the two antennas in different directions, or use a channel 17 join tenna to add the XG91 to the mix. The cost of the antenna and amp at solidsignal.com is just a bit over $100.

I have the European equivalent to the XG91, built a little better, but has more gain at the top end of UHF than the XG91, and I have a mid-power station at 60 miles 2edge that TVfool shows a DB(mn) of -20.7 and a power of -111.5, over several ridges, and can consistently get a 80-100% signal with the preamp.



You might even be able to pick up some of those other stations with it in the evenings. Good antenna, and reviews are good on it. Might be one to consider.


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

Davenlr said:


> Take the NM(DB) reading, approx 15.5 for channel 17 at your location. You need to be above 0 at your TV. Calculate: (NM(db) + the gain of your antenna at ch 17) - (balun loss, coax loss, splitter loss, tuner loss). If the number is > 0, then you have a signal.
> 
> In your case, if you only want this one channel, the cheapest route would be a XG91 (15.5 + 15) = 30.5, plus a Channel master 7777 preamp +24db after noise loss = 54.5db signal.


In paragraph #1 you must add the noise figure of the tuner. A normal number is roughly 8 db, but varies from model to model and channel to channel. (Perhaps that's what you mean by tuner loss)

In paragraph #2, you can't add preamp gain to the noise margin. You should replace the tuner noise figure (~8 db) with the preamp noise figure (~3 db) and remove the losses of the downlead & splitter. It is a good idea to subtract 1-2 db to include variables such as multiple splitters, VSWR losses, and/or high tuner noise figure. The actual noise margin would be 15.5 + 15 - 3 -2 = 25.5 db. That should work fine all the time.

Finally, the 91XG is a fine antenna, but it is not the best choice for channel 17.


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## Jon Robert (Sep 18, 2010)

I HAVE SUCCEEDED! Thanks for all your tips. 

I got a free 40' antenna tower with an old Channel Master Quantum Deep fringe antenna for the taking down. Apparently that line had a great UHF section i.e. the station I wanted. So I was doubly blessed, tower and antenna. site: tvfmantennas.a.wiki-site.com/index.php/Information_on_the_Quantum_Line

I reinstalled it at the cabin and yippee we can get the Fox station that broadcast Packer games. It did require a one piece signal amp (not tower mounted) from Walmart. The station was barely there otherwise. My nephew had a digital TV that it came in perfect on. He said it had a built in amp. I was using an analog TV with converter. So we bought the amp. 

I just wonder if an antenna mounted amp would still be a good idea for later bad weather periods of the year?


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, the antenna mounted pre-amp will amplify your signal before any interference and/or line loss is introduced in the cable coming into your house.

Get a good quality pre-amp, with a low noise level, like the Channel Master 7777, not a cheap Radio Shack pre-amp with 30 dB amplification but 6 dB or noise.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Congrats. Yes. the Channel Master Quantum was one of the best antennas made. I still have a "near Fringe VHF, deepest Fringe UHF" model I use for DXing. It has just a TAD less gain than my Televes DAT75. I silicone all the rivets and armorall the housings and antenna element brackets every year to keep it going. They are HARD to find these days in good condition.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

Davenlr said:


> Congrats. Yes. the Channel Master Quantum was one of the best antennas made. .


I had one installed for my folks when they lived out in the California desert. Just about made me cry when they sold the house and left the antenna there.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

fluffybear said:


> I had one installed for my folks when they lived out in the California desert. Just about made me cry when they sold the house and left the antenna there.


Bet it was this one:


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

Davenlr said:


> Bet it was this one:


You may be right! All I know is my folks had a hard time pulling in LA stations (They lived 87 miles from Mt. Wilson) with the crap one they had and after I had this one installed for them, they were pulling in stations from as far as Ventura County and every station in San Diego (prior to that was only getting KFMB)


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