# Anyone know if DISH plans on HD for The CW network?



## Taha24 (Jun 15, 2006)

So now that WB and UPN have merged, I was hoping Dish would start showing CW in HD too. Does anyone know of any plans from Dish?


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Taha24 said:


> So now that WB and UPN have merged, I was hoping Dish would start showing CW in HD too. Does anyone know of any plans from Dish?


Not exactly a merger. And some of these stations are going to MYtv rather then CW. Probably only very long term plans to add HD for these, unless CW or MYtv wants to make a deal for a national channel. Otherwise Dish would have to add one or two new HD locals in each market.


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## sNEIRBO (Jul 23, 2006)

Taha24 said:


> So now that WB and UPN have merged, I was hoping Dish would start showing CW in HD too. Does anyone know of any plans from Dish?


For now, try an OTA. I'm getting CW in HD over my OTA - and best yet it's not down rezzed. I recorded Smallville in HD last night.


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## Taha24 (Jun 15, 2006)

tnsprin said:


> Not exactly a merger. And some of these stations are going to MYtv rather then CW. Probably only very long term plans to add HD for these, unless CW or MYtv wants to make a deal for a national channel. Otherwise Dish would have to add one or two new HD locals in each market.


Well here channel 9 (which was WB/WGN) became CW, while channel 50 (UPN) changed to MyNetwork TV or whatever its called.


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## Taha24 (Jun 15, 2006)

sNEIRBO said:


> For now, try an OTA. I'm getting CW in HD over my OTA - and best yet it's not down rezzed. I recorded Smallville in HD last night.


Grr.... 

And Smallville is actually the reason I want CW in HD. Its my favorite show and is the only show I really watch regularly (ive started watching a few more nowadays). I recorded the season premiere too, but its just SD.... and watching it on a 61" screen makes me want to cry.

And yea, im gonna try the OTA. I just need to get the lazy electrician I know to help me bring the wire from the big ass antenna on the roof to the entertainment center. I'm not good at all at that kind of work.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

You don't need an electrician for that. Anyone can do it. You can also try an indoor antennae in the interim.


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## cooldude919 (Sep 21, 2006)

This whole deal sucks for me. My local station that WAS the WB, went to mynetworktv, and will be going HD very soon. My local station that WAS UPN, went to the CW, and has no plans to go HD. I am in southeast missouri, and my only other option would be to try to catch st.louis stations (~80+ miles way), so i would have to probably get a bigger antenna, ect. I can get my spanish soap's in HD, but i cant get my smallville in HD


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## sNEIRBO (Jul 23, 2006)

Taha24 said:


> Grr....
> 
> And Smallville is actually the reason I want CW in HD. Its my favorite show and is the only show I really watch regularly (ive started watching a few more nowadays). I recorded the season premiere too, but its just SD.... and watching it on a 61" screen makes me want to cry.


Sorry dude! I didn't mean to rub salt in the wound . . . :nono:

As HDLover said - try a small set top antenna for the time being. You'll probably be surprised how much you can pull in with it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Until the local station gets their act together I'm without HD for current Smallvilles. They are a LP station and have requested a 'companion channel' for digital broadcasts and are pre-plumbed for HD and ready to go (they even provide a HD cable only feed). The FCC has preliminarily approved their request (on August 31st) and has given them until October 31st to apply for a construction permit - so far they have not done that (over 100 stations have taken the 2nd step - not my local CW).

In addition they INSIST on ruining the SD broadcast by simply transmitting a cropped copy of their HD downconverted. So while others may watch in SD and see the whole image (albeit letterboxed) we get to lose 25% of the picture just to get it zoomed.

Superstation time! At least they transmit in letterbox so faces and objects are not half way off the screen. And my HD set does a fair job of displaying E*'s ZOOMED output in 16x9.

There are a lot of messed up stations out there. It would be nice to get an alternate HD feed of all networks.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Worked out well for me here in Raleigh... Sinclair owned both our WB and UPN stations... The WB had been doing HD for a couple of years now, not-so on UPN... So when the CW happened... Sinclair converted the WB into CW so we still get HD... and the UPN became MyNetwork... still no HD on MyNetwork, but I'm not watching that one so I'm cool!


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

In the Atlanta area we got a MyNetwork and a CW, both are showing HD OTA for prime time. I only wish they would show HD college football on Saturdays!!! But since Jefferson Pilot (actually whoever they got bought out by- can't remember the name) doesn't have any HD cameras I know that isn't going to happen.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Dish will have a hard time adding a 5th HD channel to the local package. The 4 channels are already filling 1 transponder. An I don't see them doubling spot beams for CW in local markets.

Originally they thought mpeg4 would be 2x compression of mpeg2. But, current real-time encoders just can't hack it. Perhaps we'll get more locals when the encoders get better.

You'll have to try for OTA. Also, if you're local affiliate isn't doing Hi-DEF there probably isn't a signal available for E* to send you (even if they could).

And Yes, I realize that 129 doesn't yet have any spot beams. But they are coming, I doubt Dish will allocate more then 1 spot for each HD Market.


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

Yeah, but hopefully in the future they will be able to get better performance out of MPEG4 and they can put 5 or 6 channels on a transponder.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

At the present time there is no real MPEG 4. What we have right now is MPEG 2 w/ MPEG 4 tags. It will still be a bit before we start seeing the real MPEG 4 come on line.


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

Not true. Most of the locals are in MPEG4


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

lakebum431 said:


> Not true. Most of the locals are in MPEG4


Where can we find the info that tells us which channels are tagged vs real MPEG4? I have not heard or read this anywhere.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

How about superstations for the Cw in HD? This would still help many get the Cw in hd. I am eligible for the CW in all time zones and I get it ota in my local area. So they could do it in 720p for most of the country.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> How about superstations for the Cw in HD? This would still help many get the Cw in hd. I am eligible for the CW in all time zones and I get it ota in my local area. So they could do it in 720p for most of the country.


The old WB did 1080i... don't know about UPN since my station never upgraded... but the new CW is in 1080i just like the old WB was.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

lakebum431 said:


> In the Atlanta area we got a MyNetwork and a CW, both are showing HD OTA for prime time. I only wish they would show HD college football on Saturdays!!! But since Jefferson Pilot (actually whoever they got bought out by- can't remember the name) doesn't have any HD cameras I know that isn't going to happen.


I feel your pain... don't know if you are an ACC or SEC fan since you are in Atlanta, I would guess you could be either a Georgia Tech fan or a Georgia fan or perhaps both!

But I know what you mean... even moreso during college basketball because we don't even get to see the ACC tournament in HD because ESPNHD is blacked out here while the local folks show it in not-so-glorious SD due to the contracts.


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

Been discussed here and at satelliteguys.us many times. Basically all the HD Lils except NY and LA are real MPEG4 as well as Stars HD and NFL HD. I'm probably missing a couple but can't remember.


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

HDMe said:


> I feel your pain... don't know if you are an ACC or SEC fan since you are in Atlanta, I would guess you could be either a Georgia Tech fan or a Georgia fan or perhaps both!
> 
> But I know what you mean... even moreso during college basketball because we don't even get to see the ACC tournament in HD because ESPNHD is blacked out here while the local folks show it in not-so-glorious SD due to the contracts.


No joke. I'm a huge SEC fan but I love to watch all sports and the fact that something is available in HD (such as the ACC tournament) and I can't get it stinks!!! All well, one of these days. . .


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

David_Levin said:


> Dish will have a hard time adding a 5th HD channel to the local package. The 4 channels are already filling 1 transponder. An I don't see them doubling spot beams for CW in local markets.
> 
> Originally they thought mpeg4 would be 2x compression of mpeg2. But, current real-time encoders just can't hack it. Perhaps we'll get more locals when the encoders get better.
> 
> ...


Well, we are still not sure what they are doing with the RSN's and whether or not those will be spot beamed. I don't know all the technical details but perhaps there may be room on some of the SD spot beams to shift channels around and set it up so that instead of carrying ALL SD or ALL HD channels on spot beam, they can share a transponder and split the channels evenly between them. Because as it stands I am sure there is some wasted bandwidth on most of the SD spotbeams.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

lakebum431 said:


> Been discussed here and at satelliteguys.us many times. Basically all the HD Lils except NY and LA are real MPEG4 as well as Stars HD and NFL HD. I'm probably missing a couple but can't remember.


Have not seen it here and I'm looking at sat guys where they are talking about MPEG 2 to MPEG 4 conversion and it isn't in that forum. So I'm being a bit of a skeptic till I see it with some back up source. I'm not saying that you are wrong just that I would like to see some more proof other that discussions on the forums.


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

It has been talked about many many many times over there. Did you even try to search? Here is a link to 1 of the discussions.
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=74752&highlight=real+mpeg4


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

So far I have read all the threads that talk about MPEG 4 and all seem to be speculating and I just don't see anything other I think that STARZ HD, NFL, and some LIL's are in MPEG 4. In fact the thread that I was given on it were talking about it as Pre MPEG 4 and many are saying that they think that it is true MPEG 4 but no place where they are showing any kinda of proof. I still want to see a statement with something that I can go to that these channels are true MPEG 4. A statement from E* or quotes from a news source. Sorry that I'm a skeptic but I need some proof that those are running 4 at present. Does anyone have anything other than statements on a public forum.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Just for devil's advocate... What proof do you have that they are not really MPEG4 other than posts on one of the forums?

If you aren't accepting discussions here or at Satellite Guys as "proof" that some channels on Dish are MPEG4 then why are you accepting discussions here or at Satellite Guys that some channels are not MPEG4?

I've seen nothing from a news outlet or from Dish that says one way or another officially, and for obvious reasons... so anything you are believing one way or the other can only be coming from one of these forums... so why would you believe the folks saying one thing more than another and then question the "proof" based upon it only being a post at a forum?

I'm confused.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There is a way to tell based on the SDT table flags. Suffice it to say that all HD LIL except NY and LA and a couple of the newest national HD *are* MPEG4, real MPEG4, not just MPEG2 flagged for MPEG4 receivers only.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

HDMe said:


> Just for devil's advocate... What proof do you have that they are not really MPEG4 other than posts on one of the forums?
> 
> If you aren't accepting discussions here or at Satellite Guys as "proof" that some channels on Dish are MPEG4 then why are you accepting discussions here or at Satellite Guys that some channels are not MPEG4?
> 
> ...


That is why I'm asking for something that tells us that things have changed recently. Don't mind your being a D's advocate I would just like to see somthing other than a speculation on a forum.

Here is an article that states when it is expected that Dish will start using the MPEG 4 systems. It is dated Feb 4 2006, This is the only document I could find that gave any dates as to projected start of MPEG 4 use.

http://www.nextcomwireless.com/r5000/mpeg4.htm


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

grooves12 said:


> I don't know all the technical details but perhaps there may be room on some of the SD spot beams to shift channels around and set it up so that instead of carrying ALL SD or ALL HD channels on spot beam, they can share a transponder and split the channels evenly between them. Because as it stands I am sure there is some wasted bandwidth on most of the SD spotbeams.


Mixing SD & HD would be a bigger hit on bandwidth then you realize....

All HD receivers support the newer 8PSK modulation which provides more bandwidth per transponder. I'm sure others will chime in, but I believe the improvment is around 50%. Back in the day we used to get 2 hd/transponder. When the model 6000 got the 8VSB add-on they went to 3 per transponder). So, all HD now uses transponders running 8PSK.

Since most (all?) SD receivers do not support 8PSK, mixing SD and HD would force the HD to Quad modulation which would make the bandwitch situation worse.

As can be seen from the transponder charts, SD and HD are never mixed.

The charts also show which channels are mpeq2 and which are mpeg4.

http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/dish129.html (a bit out of date)

The ekb chart for 129 shows with hd channels are mpeg2 (others are mpeg4)
http://www.dbstalk.com/ekb/129list.htm

Mpeg 4 got them 1 more channel per transponder. So, if you look up HDOHD on 110 tp 13, you'll see it on a transponder with 2 other channels (must stay mpeg2 to support older receivers). If you look at the new voom and locals you'll notice them packing in with 4 per transponder.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

David_Levin said:


> All HD receivers support the newer 8PSK modulation which provides more bandwidth per transponder. I'm sure others will chime in, but I believe the improvment is around 50%. Back in the day we used to get 2 hd/transponder. When the model 6000 got the 8VSB add-on they went to 3 per transponder). So, all HD now uses transponders running 8PSK.


8VSB is for OTA locals, but there was an 8PSK tuner (6000U) that did the trick. Yes, the improvement is about 50% (not to be confused with double) going from QPSK to 8PSK. 8PSK transponders are also run at a slightly higher symbol rate than QPSK.


David_Levin said:


> Since most (all?) SD receivers do not support 8PSK, mixing SD and HD would force the HD to Quad modulation which would make the bandwitch situation worse.


Most.

According to the EKB, the following SD only receivers can do 8PSK:
111, 311, 322 and 522/625 (also the rebranded HD receivers such as the 381 can do 8PSK).
Recievers that cannot do 8PSK include the 301, 501, 508, 510 and all legacy receivers except the 6000u, 921 and 942.
I say "most" cannot because of the number of customers before the new 8PSK capable receivers were released.
New customers getting new receivers will not have a problem when 8PSK SD is introduced.

I believe there is a goal to get everything over to 8PSK and we will eventually see mixed SD/HD transponders that are available only to capable receivers. But that day is a couple of years and a few million receiver replacements away.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Thanks James,
That was a typo - I ment to say 8PSK there.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

David_Levin said:


> Mixing SD & HD would be a bigger hit on bandwidth then you realize....
> 
> All HD receivers support the newer 8PSK modulation which provides more bandwidth per transponder. I'm sure others will chime in, but I believe the improvment is around 50%. Back in the day we used to get 2 hd/transponder. When the model 6000 got the 8VSB add-on they went to 3 per transponder). So, all HD now uses transponders running 8PSK.
> 
> ...


This chart only shows that NFL HD on 129 and Albuquerque, NM are MPEG 4. The Full chart conflicted w/ this in that only the NFLHD showed as MPEG4 (ch9426).
http://www.dishchannelchart.com/ 
So according to this STARZ HD is not shown as either. On the full length chart NFLHD is on 2 sats it is also on 110 (ch 287) as MPEG 2. So those that watch this channel should be able to do a comparison to see if there is any difference.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The NFLHD on 287 is in MPEG2 for a reason ... it is a free preview to entice people to upgrade to DishHD metal packages. If it were not in MPEG2 it would be hard to preview.


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