# Warning to American Expressvu subs



## xxxx (May 25, 2002)

As you are aware, Bell Expressvu does not have an FCC licence to broadcast DBS to the US.

As you may also be aware, Bell Expressvu has led the way in Canada with over 20 court cases to get Canadians labelled as criminals for doing the same thing in Canada (watching American DBS in Canada).

They have been successful. A Charter Of Rights violation case has been filed in the Supreme Court of Canada against Bell Canada Enterprises (parent of Expressvu).

As part of the disclosure process, the following companies have been identified, by one of the Supreme Court petitioners, of being participants in a scheme, to knowingly retailing hardware and/or accepting Bell Expressvu subscriptions from non-Canadians.

They are:

KUSAT.COM 
Simard, Philippe (PS3054) [email protected] 
Filounet 3755363 Canada Inc. 
410 Cote Ste Catherine Montreal 
Montreal QC H2V2B4

GLOBAL-CM.NET 
Kohl, Mike (MK16263) [email protected] 
S9141 State Hwy 23 
Plain , WI 53577-9612 
608.546.2523 (FAX) 608.546.2157

Largo Communications (SATELLITEDISHCANADA-DOM) 
6100 Hollywood Blvd., Suite #203 
Hollywood, FL 33024 US

Neil Marriott (CANADATOTWINCITIES-DOM) 
8913 Belvedere Drive 
Eden Prairie, MN 55347 US

Claude Gosselin 
611 Reardon Court 
Roseville, CA 95678 US

CANAMSATELLITES.COM 
S Barton 
9917 Hawthorne Dr 
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70809

It's time to cool the talk about Expressvu on these American boards guys - Management of at least 1 US network are monitoring all these forums continuously. They are watching the spread of Expressvu network HD very closely.

http://www.legal-rights.org/Documents/reversegreymarket.html


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## raj2001 (Nov 2, 2002)

With all due respect, I don't think there's anything on Canadian TV I would really want to watch anyway :lol:


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Haha you know whats funny, is that I called a non 800 number for ExpressVu about a year ago and explained to them I wanted to subscribe but I was an American and they gave me many of those company names to get service from. 

BTW I know Michael Kohl of Global Communications, this guy knows his stuff.  Anyone looking for C/KU band equipment or FTA receivers should talk to Mike.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I was primarily looking at KUsat for service looks like I may reconsider, but I won't reconsider getting BEV. Safest bet would be if Knew someone up north but I don't so that will have to do.



> With all due respect, I don't think there's anything on Canadian TV I would really want to watch anyway


It's not so much the Canadian (well for me anyway), it's the American. Nets from Seattle and Boston, three of the superstations Dish has, plus WGN9, that's my main motivation. Plus uncensored Osbourns and free Sorpranos doesn't hurt much either, and I won't have to go on my roof every spring to realign my antenna.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Steve Mehs _
> I was primarily looking at KUsat for service looks like I may reconsider, but I won't reconsider getting BEV. Safest bet would be if Knew someone up north but I don't so that will have to do.


Bell had the Mounties raid a DirecTV broker; problem could arise because same company was also acting broker for Expressvu.

Now all names in database will become public knowledge during the trial. It will be difficult for Expressvu to say that don't know who these American subs are when it becomes public record.

Plus since they are paying dealers to do free dual satellite dish upgrade to HD subs - How do they claim 10,000 subs but say only 7,000 upgrades performed?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

So let them get a list of Amercian subscribers, big deal. No laws against it.

Bell likes getting American Money.


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## xxxx (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> So let them get a list of Amercian subscribers, big deal. No laws against it.


ITU DBS rules forbid the selling of subscriptions to residents outside of the country to which the DBS orbital slot was assigned.

That is why all DirecTV service to latin America is on ku not DBS satellite.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

There are sure going to be a lot of mad Denver people if anything comes of this.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2003)

It won't be a problem unless a lot of bars get involved and start showing blacked out NFL/NHL games. Then it'll be a big problem that will be addressed by the rights holders. That's what happened in the C Band heyday.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

I don't see anything coming of this, besides ExpressVu enjoying the money coming in from Americans the Canadian government is not going to complaign about the dollars coming in as well.

The grey market is really small at the moment.

Perhaps if the industries looked at why people were subscribing to the Canadian services they could make the necessary changes to have Americans only subscribe to American services.

I must admit when I subscibed to ExpressVu I loved watching American Network shows hours early on NTV from Newfoundland Canada.


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## clapple (Feb 11, 2003)

Once again the US government creates laws benefiting big business, rather than consumers. My local stations drag their feet years behind the mandated dead lines, and still have the right to prevent my obtaining an out of area source, of HDTV.

Considering the premise of this thread, I would really appericiate an e-mail, from anyone knowledgable about expressvu. Either pro or con. Somehow, I will have MNF in HD.

Thanks: [email protected]


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Can a consumer get mad for going through any of those business ordering Canadian satellite service? Can you get a new promotional deal just as if you was a new subscriber?


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## raj2001 (Nov 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *Perhaps if the industries looked at why people were subscribing to the Canadian services they could make the necessary changes to have Americans only subscribe to American services.*


Scott, we all know that's next to impossible, due to the experience with the reverse situation (Canadians subbing American DirecTV and DISH). If they put restrictions in place, you can bet your life people will find a way to sub. The companies won't have any idea that these people are in the USA and not Canada.

But as you said, they like American money. [simpsons]American Currency! How would you like your breakfast sir?[/simpsons]


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## raj2001 (Nov 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by xxxx _
> *
> That is why all DirecTV service to latin America is on ku not DBS satellite. *


DTV Latin America doesn't use the same satellites or orbital positions as US DirecTV. They use a satellite called Galaxy 8R (which replaced Galaxy 3R which now at 74WL) which is at 95WL. The frequencies are different too, though, but close.


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## Claude Greiner (Apr 24, 2002)

Whats the big deal!

The Canadian Satellite dealers are making money!

ExpressVU is making money off the subscriptions

The Canadian Goverment is making money off the Taxes charged on the programming.

The US Satellite companies still get their money, because a majority of these grey market subs also subscribe to either Dish or Directv.

If these grey market subs where pirating cards, then it would be a different story. As long as they are paying subscribers, nobody cares!


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Well the only ones that would care are copyright holders that want to charge differently for the US vs Canada. The DBS company makes money off of gray market subs, so I do not see them persuing it too hard, but copyright holders might put pressure on them.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mike123abc _
> *Well the only ones that would care are copyright holders that want to charge differently for the US vs Canada. The DBS company makes money off of gray market subs, so I do not see them persuing it too hard, but copyright holders might put pressure on them. *


Well, since the copyright holders are the ones who ultimately control program distribution, that would be a *rather* important point! The bottom line is that the owner of the program, and *not* the DBS companies determine who can watch which program...and that's something we should all remember.


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## Art7220 (Feb 4, 2004)

xxxx said:


> ...It's time to cool the talk about Expressvu on these American boards guys - Management of at least 1 US network are monitoring all these forums continuously. They are watching the spread of Expressvu network HD very closely. ...


Ok, so I know this is over a year old, but...

So, who is the network that is monitoring this site? If they know we are going to an alternate TV provider, then they should renegotiate contracts with DN, DTV so we buy networks from them.

Or, maybe not, since I use BEV to get CBC, CTV & Global programs US local stations don't want me to see.

-A-


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## uncdanwrong (Feb 11, 2004)

The real problem the Canadians have is the U. S. Constitution. As long as Canadian DTH services are available to "snowbirds" vacationing in the U. S. then there is no way to prevent American companies providing the same services to U. S. residents. Canadians can not legally use our airwaves to discriminate against us. Note that U. S. DBS services are not legally available to anyone (resident or non-resident) in Canada.


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## music_beans (Mar 21, 2003)

Me + ExpressVU = no interest.


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

The Canadian greymarket is simply too small and too difficult to police to draw much interest from the only people being hurt, which would be copyright holders who only own US, and not Canadian, rights. 

Short of doing a on site look-up, actually going to each of the phony addresses used by a greymarket customer, there is nothing they really can do, and there is no incentive for them to do so.


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

Sam, you haven't reached my level of paranoia. First imagine a cheesed-off US rightsholder looking to send a message and pick up some petty cash. Suppose they file suit against somebody on the above vendor list, but offer to settle in exchange for the subscriber list. Even if they only get credit card numbers or equipment delivery addresses, they could hand off to local paralegals/collectors for a DirecTV-style (or RIAA-style) sweep of lawsuits.

Who would the rightsholder be? My guess would be the NFL or TimeWarner (HBO), but yaneverknow.

Mind you, I'm not predicting this, and I'm certainly not hoping for it, but I think it's probability is above zero, which makes it too risky for me to chance it just so I can watch CFL games again.


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## clapple (Feb 11, 2003)

music_beans said:


> Me + ExpressVU = no interest.


Then I suspect you live where all the network HD broadcasts are avalable OTA. If you lived where the local broadcasters are 2+ years beyond the deadlines, for starting digital (HD) broadcasts (with no improvement in sight), you might like the idea of having access to MNF, and all the rest of the network HD broadcasts.

To say nothing about those, that live beyond any OTA.

:nono2:


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## Art7220 (Feb 4, 2004)

uncdanwrong said:


> The real problem the Canadians have is the U. S. Constitution. ...


So, you're saying the Constitution is stronger than the Canadian Charter of Rights & Freedoms? Is there a way to compare the two?

-A-


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

carload,
You do not have to worry. You would not be breaking any US law with a gray market subscription to Expressvu. It is up to the provider to ensure their subscribers qualify.

Unfortunately, the reverse IS something to worry about. A Canadian with a gray market subscription to DISH or DirecTV will soon be subject to a $25,000 fine and a year in jail. Bell has lobbied the Canadian government to protect their inferior product through changes to the Radio Communications Act and has succeeded. They now have the RCMP (Canada's FBI) tracking down and charging dealers that offer US gray market systems. These dealers are arguing that Bell is doing the exact same thing in the US and is fully aware of it. That is why Expressvu is doing a disconnect here and there so they can look good in court.


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## clapple (Feb 11, 2003)

peano said:


> carload,
> You do not have to worry. You would not be breaking any US law with a gray market subscription to Expressvu. It is up to the provider to ensure their subscribers qualify.
> 
> Unfortunately, the reverse IS something to worry about. A Canadian with a gray market subscription to DISH or DirecTV will soon be subject to a $25,000 fine and a year in jail. Bell has lobbied the Canadian government to protect their inferior product through changes to the Radio Communications Act and has succeeded. They now have the RCMP (Canada's FBI) tracking down and charging dealers that offer US gray market systems. These dealers are arguing that Bell is doing the exact same thing in the US and is fully aware of it. That is why Expressvu is doing a disconnect here and there so they can look good in court.


I would almost guess, that Bell has more US subs, than there are Canadian subs, of Dish and Direct. Perhaps Expressvu should not make waves.


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## chenrikson (Feb 2, 2004)

I also note that Mike Kohl was contacted directly by EPV a few weeks ago and told to stop advertising their equipment or programming. He has removed the material and they have followed up to thank him.

I suspect this is more political than anything else since BEV is getting our money - we are not stealing anything - but it certainly didn't help Mike's business! Contact him at Global Communications for FTA information and alternatives to BEV for Canadian programming.

Personally, we much prefer some of the BEV offerings, but then we are both over 60 yrs of age!!

Craig


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

clapple said:


> I would almost guess, that Bell has more US subs, than there are Canadian subs, of Dish and Direct. Perhaps Expressvu should not make waves.


BEV has put their foot in their mouth on this one. They claim 700,000 Canadians have gray or black market US systems. Hmmmm. I wonder why?


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

peano said:


> carload,
> You do not have to worry. You would not be breaking any US law with a gray market subscription to Expressvu. It is up to the provider to ensure their subscribers qualify.


It may or may not be true that I wouldn't break any laws by watching ExpressVu in the US. But I suspect that I could be liable for copyright infringement since content rightsholders have not given me, a US resident, permission to view their programming, licensed for Canada.

I never talked about going to jail. I'm talking about some rightsholder deciding to crack down some day with a wave of lawsuits. Suppose the NFL says US EV customers are liable for Sunday Ticket fees because they've been watching out-of-market broadcasts of games. Every stateside EV viewer with US distants (every EV viewer?  ) that the NFL can find gets sued for the equivalent of X years of Sunday Ticket plus their infringing equipment. Imagine if the movie studios pile on. Theoretically, it could get expensive.

I think the money is small enough and the problem is minimal enough that this won't happen. But it might.


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## ypsiguy (Jan 28, 2004)

If Bell Canada wants to be jerks, people in the US grey market will just move to Star Choice. Let them lose money. Star Choice is probably very happy right now.


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## kevision (Mar 30, 2004)

I've seen some discussion on this thread and others that if anyone were to persue action, it would be the copyright holders. I cant imagine they would do this though. Most Americans with BEV are paying for it. And I would guess that most Americans with BEV also have a sub to DN or DTV. 
those that are producing progamming probably dont care who gets it, as long as they are paying. It's not like what D* attempted to accomplish, nor what the RIA is persuing with music copiers. In those cases, they are losing revenue.
I would fully agree with and support programmers who prosecute hacks. And i understand why BEV would want to halt any grey subs as it is required by law. But i think it unlikely that copyright holders would cut off paying customers (some who are paying twice) no matter the means in which they recieve it.


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

kevision said:


> those that are producing progamming probably dont care who gets it, as long as they are paying.


I agree, and that's why I offer the examples of the NFL and TimeWarner. If you're sitting in Dallas but getting your Buffalo Bills fix through a Canadian dish, you're not buying NFL Sunday Ticket. Or you could be watching the Sopranos on a Canadian network instead of buying HBO. From a rightsholder perspective, that's not much better than paying for Kazaa Premium so you can download Madonna songs.


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## RichW (Mar 29, 2002)

"From a rightsholder perspective, that's not much better than paying for Kazaa Premium so you can download Madonna songs."

Kind of ironic that a Canadian Judge has just ruled that MP3 file sharing may be legal in Canada. Obviously the RIAA will appeal, but it is a setback for rightsholders.


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## Tyralak (Jan 24, 2004)

RichW said:


> "From a rightsholder perspective, that's not much better than paying for Kazaa Premium so you can download Madonna songs."
> 
> Kind of ironic that a Canadian Judge has just ruled that MP3 file sharing may be legal in Canada. Obviously the RIAA will appeal, but it is a setback for rightsholders.


 :flaiming :flaiming****WARNING! FLAME AHEAD****:flaiming :flaiming

And a victory for consumers, who have been routinely crapped on lately by the "rightsholders" and their bought and paid for Senators with such reprehesible behavior as the DMCA. Take a look at this, and it will show you that the RIAA is full of crap: 
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994831

I personnaly am sick of special interests trying to tell me when and where I can watch TV shows. So-called copy "protection" is is nothing more than a way to limit how and when I can use something I PAID FOR! It's also a way for them to raise prices at will, and further rape consumers. I don't "steal" songs, if that's the canard you're going to come back with. I buy everything I use, because I believe in paying for things I use. I resent, however, some damn "rightsholder" telling me how I can use that item I paid good money for. If I want to make a backup copy of a movie I BOUGHT, I don't want some pinhead telling me I can't. If I want to archive programs for my personal use from TV, I don't want some filthy special interest trying to control how I watch it with their disgusting "broadcast flag" or other BS. If I want to time shift it in HD, or if I want to archive it in HD, I WILL DO SO! Our rights as consumers are being washed away faster than we can blink, and some pinheads out there are just fine and dandy with it! "Thank you sir, may I have another?":soapbox:

This subject is going to give me a stroke one of these days. It sends my blood pressure through the roof. I'm going to go cool off now.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2004)

I'm still peeved that CBC yanked their C Band feed and left me hanging, forcing me to subscribe to the Center Ice package down in the south. For the past two years I have been cautious to pursue a grey market solution so I can get my CBC, CityTV, Global back into my home.

Question: setting aside the legalities how difficult is it for a Canadian to subscribe to StarChoice and/or BEV? (Mike has always been accepting of my annoying questions)

Any NON-critical advice is appreciated. Those who have nothing to offer me, ignore my post.
TIA
MAGS


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## RJS1111111 (Mar 23, 2002)

MAGSGQ said:


> I'm still peeved that CBC yanked their C Band feed and left me hanging, forcing me to subscribe to the Center Ice package down in the south. For the past two years I have been cautious to pursue a grey market solution so I can get my CBC, CityTV, Global back into my home.
> 
> Question: setting aside the legalities how difficult is it for a Canadian to subscribe to StarChoice and/or BEV? (Mike has always been accepting of my annoying questions)
> 
> ...


...as both billing and service address.


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