# 721 upgrades?



## gary s

Here is the question I emailed during the tech forum and the reply I just received tonight.

------ Original message ------
Are there any plans to have the open tv or interactive on the 721
receivers?
--------------------------------
Dear Sir or Madam:

Thank you for your email correspondence.* We will eventually be adding the Open TV/interactive features to the 721.* We hope to have some upgrades available by the end of August.* 

Sincerely,
Julie J.

Technical Support
Dish Network
-------------------

While she says "eventually", not necessarily August, for the Open TV/interactive application she does say hopefully some kind of upgrades by the end of August.


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## baloo75

gary s said:


> Here is the question I emailed during the tech forum and the reply I just received tonight.
> 
> ------ Original message ------
> Are there any plans to have the open tv or interactive on the 721
> receivers?
> --------------------------------
> Dear Sir or Madam:
> 
> Thank you for your email correspondence.* We will eventually be adding the Open TV/interactive features to the 721.* We hope to have some upgrades available by the end of August.*
> 
> Sincerely,
> Julie J.
> 
> Technical Support
> Dish Network
> -------------------
> 
> While she says "eventually", not necessarily August, for the Open TV/interactive application she does say hopefully some kind of upgrades by the end of August.


I sent a similiar email during the tech chat:

----------Sent this---------------------------------

Will dish home ever be available for the 721?

----------Got this----------------------------------

Thank you for your email correspondence. Yes, Dish Home will be added to the 721 with a future software update.

Sincerely,

Matt W.

Technical Support

Dish Network

--------------------------------------------------------

Sounds like they plan to do it, it will be interesting to see if we have this within a year :lol:


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## treiher

They love to use that word "eventually!" Eventually can mean just about anything, which is why they use it. I wonder how well it work if I told them I was eventually going to pay my bill? Not sure when, but they'll know when they receive the payment.


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## Jacob S

Lol, thats a good one, maybe thats a line I should use when calling in to complain about why they decided to take my money and not ship out my two 508 receivers and use that as an excuse to not send in my payment yet, that I will eventually do so just like you will eventually ship out my 508 receivers even though they were ordered a week earlier.

* We will eventually be adding the Open TV/interactive features to the 721.* We hope to have some upgrades available by the end of August.* Julie from Tech Support @ Dish says

EVENTUALLY is the answer on the OpenTV/interactive features in which means it will be either one, may NOT be OpenTV and hopes to have SOME upgrades by the end of August in which does not mean it will be the OpenTV OR interactive features that will be some of those upgrades by the end of August that they are HOPING for. Also someone had said that they avoided the question about OpenTv on the tech chat so this is what this question reminds me of and why I chose to respond.


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## Scott Greczkowski

OpenTV will NOT be in the August release. 

I can feel safe saying that.


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## BrianCBock

Is anyone else majorly *issed off that Dish is coming out with a new PVR product with two tv outputs and Dish Home BEFORE that got the crappy software in the 721 fixed?

Mine CRASHES all the dang time.

Also, "eventually" is no answer. Dish ought to be ashamed of it's lack of business ethics. I've never bought a worse consumer product than the DISH PVR 721.


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## Big Bob

BrianCBock said:


> Is anyone else majorly *issed off that Dish is coming out with a new PVR product with two tv outputs and Dish Home BEFORE that got the crappy software in the 721 fixed?
> 
> Mine CRASHES all the dang time.


Mine doesn't



BrianCBock said:


> Also, "eventually" is no answer. Dish ought to be ashamed of it's lack of business ethics. I've never bought a worse consumer product than the DISH PVR 721.


The 721 is a fine piece of equipment. Very solid and has changed the way my family watches TV. I have never been more satisfied with a entertainment purchase.


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## thomasmaly

I agree with you 100% Bob. not being a tech geek..for us amatuers it is the greatest thing since sliced bread...


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## gary s

When I posted the original post in this thread I was not complaining about my 721. I have had a few small glitches and reboots but I am _extremely_ happy with it. I would just like to see the Dish Home channel (open-TV/interactive) added mainly for the news content and I also like the trivia thing. I can, however, live without the Dish Home but I couldn't do without my 721 now.


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## Jacob S

I am happy with mine except when the previous one had the pixellation issues. That was the biggest problem I could see. If only the 721 had two tv outputs and the 200 ft. UHF remote range like the 522 is going to have it would almost be a perfect unit for me. The downside of the 522 is that it will not have the internet capability in the future but the looks of the menu's and guide is what i would really miss that the 721 currently has.


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## goughl

I have had my 721 for two weeks now and am 100% completely satisfied with it so far. Although I do miss the open TV (from the 301) it is not something I have to have. The 721 has been great.


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## BrianCBock

With all the people saying they are "100% pleased" with this thing, makes me wonder if my unit is defective. Because it truly is bad. Crashes at least once a week, often more. I got home the other day to find that it had recorded 12 hours of a single channel when all I'd requested was a one hour program that I record M-F. Other times it records the wrong name onto the show. Other times it will record less than a minute and then freeze. The caller ID worked for a few months, but no longer. And I swear the range on the RF portion of the remote has decreased, despite fresh batteries.

Then there's the problems that are by design. Anyone who has used TiVo knows that the E* software is far inferior. Or even ReplayTV. I've had both. 

On both of those boxes you can record "Enterprise" for example, and can record it whenever it's on, even if the time or day changes. And if the show isn't on one week, it doesn't record whatever took its place. Why they think time-slot recording is a good idea is beyond me. It's just not how television networks program their shows anymore.

Then there's how far behind the software is in advanced iTV features. Sure, we didn't buy the box for that, but even their cheap boxes can do it. 

The problem is resources. They have so many boxes and so many new products coming down the pike that they don't have the money or people to properly maintain and upgrade this software. 

I guess I wouldn't feel so badly about this experience if they would come out and say what their plan for the next 18 months is. I'd like to know if they plan to add any features. I mean REALLY PLAN. Not "eventually" or "hope to". Businesses are not run on hope. Surely they have someone there who is in charge of planning product development. Is it too much to know if they ever truly plan to come out with new features or if they just want us to shut up and pay the bill.

Lesson learned: Only buy an echostar product for WHAT IT DOES AND HOW IT PERFORMS TODAY.


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## Randy_B

Brian, how long have you had it? More than 12 months? If so, if you don't have the extended warranty, get it. Your 721 definitely needs to be replaced, soon.


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## treiher

> Is anyone else majorly *issed off that Dish is coming out with a new PVR product with two tv outputs and Dish Home BEFORE that got the crappy software in the 721 fixed?


Yes! That's my feeling exactly!! They've got the 921, 522 and 322 on the plate and are no doubt using resources to get those rolled out. I think those receivers are great concepts, but it makes me wonder if they are taking away from 721 support (an already released receiver) which is in desparate need of more help yesterday! I am really worried that if all the bug fixes and features like Open TV are not out and working on the 721 by the time that 921 comes out, 721 software work will suffer even more and we may never get them. No doubt, the 921 will have its own set of bugs and unsupported features and angry customers who paid a lot of money for it. Clearly, they are working beyond their own resource limitations. They need to either add more resources or support fewer receivers.

And the way they handle 721 questions like what is posted here, and on the last Tech Forum is probably the most inferiorating part of this. How ridiculous that poor guy looked when he projected releasing a 721 upgrade around the end of August when the original projected release was March! They need to publish a list of projected release dates, feature upgrades, and bug fixes and then hold themselves do it! Then they need to measure themselves on how effectively they meet those dates, compensate their people accordingly, and use that information to determine what resources they need to add or how many new projects they can support. I know this is basic corporate business 101 stuff, but it is obvious to me that the concept does not exist there.


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## Jacob S

That is a worry of mine too, that they will quit supporting the 721 as much when these other receivers come out but the ones with the hard drives are the one that requires more when it comes to software upgrades so we have to look at the new pvr receivers coming out. The 522 and 921 coming out may interfere with the 721 software updates. I have heard that the 921 will operate off of the same operating system as the 721 does but the 522 will be the same as the 501/508. I am guessing that all of these will have to receive a different type of software when they update it due to there being two tuners resulting in different timer software and so forth.


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## baloo75

I will join the list of concerned owners of not getting much more but "trickle" releases for the 721 now that the new receivers are coming out. 

One thing that worried me during the last technical chat was that when the 721 update question came up they said they are getting MANY emails about a 721 update. They obviously know that people are waiting for this but they are having trouble getting it out. The other interesting thing in the tech chat was when the guy on the viewers right (sorry if you read this, but I can't remember your name!) said they are looking at coming out with releases in the fall which will spin the hard drive down at night for "reliability" reasons. The guy on the viewers left (don't remember his name either) rolled his eyes and looked to get @issed off at this comment. I took this to mean they are obviously having reliability issues with their PVR hard drives and now it is known after that comment. I knew going into my purchase that these hard drives won't last forever being run continuously, now that is confirmed.

I too had heard that the 921 shares the same OS and after the tech chat the same chipset (albeit newer) as the 721. Now I would hope that they also share the same codebase, which if true would imply the 721 and 921 will have the same features over time, with the obvious exception of HDTV capability.


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## Scott Greczkowski

I believe that the 522 is based on the 721 code (not the 501/508 code)

The 721 will continue to be supported and upgraded, there are lots of neat things coming down the line for the 721.  

(I posted this yesterday but I believe it was lost in the database crash)


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## James_F

Like internet access Scott?


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## Scott Greczkowski

With the SBC Deal announced I can imagine Internet access being one of them in the future. (At least I can hope!)


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## Chaos

From what I hear, Internet is a way off. The powers that be are concerned about adding another major feature to a box with existing problems. They haven't written it off, but it will likely be a while, and not until the box is sufficiently stable as is.


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## sampatterson

I am happy with my 721s. I had to replace one of them (Tuner 1 went bad) it was covered under normal warranty, even though I have extended. They paid shipping to/from, etc.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Chaos, truth be told, the box is already internet ready, just a few files need to be edited to make it net ready. (Remember the unit is a UNIX box and TCP/IP is already ON in the box by default)

I understand that the browser they were / or are going to use is OpenTV based so in order for things to work they need to get OpenTV working on the 721 first.

Again with the 921, and 522 being based on the 721 code and based with the fact of the new deals with SBC and QWEST it would not surprise me to see this function on the 721 in the future.


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## Randy_B

Scott Greczkowski said:


> With the SBC Deal announced I can imagine Internet access being one of them in the future. (At least I can hope!)


I have an available port on the router connected to my SBC DSL modem ready and waiting! Already got the free upgrade to 1.5MBps :smoking:


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## Inaba

It seems that the only people "satisfied" with the 721 are the ones who've never used a real PVR for any length of time. If more people realized how devoid of features and user-unfriendly 721 really is, I doubt you'd find a single satisfied customer.

Which just points out that satisfaction is all relative to the competition  If the 721 came out 10 years ago, it would be the best thing ever made... but since it's out now as a "flagship" product, it's pretty pathetic.

Seems by the time the 921 is released, it'll be in the same boat. Woulda been good 2 years ago, but is going to be outdated and of poor quality when compared to the current crop of competitors.

3dfx learned that the hard way. E* has deeper pockets, so it might take them longer to learn that lesson.

Oh well, we all rolled the dice on the 721 and it came up snake eyes, at least that's how I look at it.


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## pjmrt

I have a 721 - really like it, although I miss the open-tv weather function (or whatever similar version gets upgraded to on 721). But the internet thing is interesting, especially with the SBC news. But does anyone know if E* is/has beta tested the internet feature yet. Is the internet capability something we might hope for by Christmas or by the next olympics?


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## Big Bob

Jacob S said:


> That is a worry of mine too, that they will quit supporting the 721 as much when these other receivers come out but the ones with the hard drives are the one that requires more when it comes to software upgrades so we have to look at the new pvr receivers coming out. The 522 and 921 coming out may interfere with the 721 software updates. I have heard that the 921 will operate off of the same operating system as the 721 does but the 522 will be the same as the 501/508. I am guessing that all of these will have to receive a different type of software when they update it due to there being two tuners resulting in different timer software and so forth.


Actually, having a number of receivers based on the same code is a good thing for the 721 and not a bad one. Any work done on the base code for the 921 (and 522 if it is based on the same code) will be incorporated into the 721 as well.

Right now, to put resources toward the 721 means that work will only apply to the 721. When the new units are released, those resources will return greater benefits to E* and will be more likely to done.


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## dbronstein

Inaba said:


> It seems that the only people "satisfied" with the 721 are the ones who've never used a real PVR for any length of time. If more people realized how devoid of features and user-unfriendly 721 really is, I doubt you'd find a single satisfied customer.


Depends how you define "satisfied." I used ReplayTV for 2 years before getting a 721, so I think that qualifies me as having used a "real" PVR. I am satisfied with my 721.

No question I'm disappointed it doesn't have name-based recording, and the software is not as good as my Replay unit in terms of features. But I have never had a timer misfire, I can record 2 things at once, and it's an integrated box so I don't have issues with an IR blaster.

I know what's missing from the 721 and I'm still a satisfied customer. So that's at least one.

Dennis


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## Bill D

The fact that we are still waiting for the triple conflict screen and weather applic since like I think April, makes me wonder if they will ever get any other features besides being superdish capable. At this point I think the internet unfortunately will never happen in the lifetime of this receiver, I hope I am wrong, but 4 months late on one version is not promising. I am also thinking maybe dish is using employees who typically work on the 721 to do the work on the 522 and 921.


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## the_beaver

Inaba said:


> It seems that the only people "satisfied" with the 721 are the ones who've never used a real PVR for any length of time. If more people realized how devoid of features and user-unfriendly 721 really is, I doubt you'd find a single satisfied customer.
> 
> Which just points out that satisfaction is all relative to the competition  If the 721 came out 10 years ago, it would be the best thing ever made... but since it's out now as a "flagship" product, it's pretty pathetic.
> 
> Seems by the time the 921 is released, it'll be in the same boat. Woulda been good 2 years ago, but is going to be outdated and of poor quality when compared to the current crop of competitors.
> 
> 3dfx learned that the hard way. E* has deeper pockets, so it might take them longer to learn that lesson.
> 
> Oh well, we all rolled the dice on the 721 and it came up snake eyes, at least that's how I look at it.


inaba,
i hear something...shhhh...
listen very carefully---
"sell your 721 on ebay, inaba,
and 'tivo-it' with direct tv."

wow...that was quite an eerie
little mantra...huh??? :icon_lol:

and btw, i don't recall rolling ANY 
dice when i made an informed
decision, based on many hours of 
research, to go with a 721 and dish 
network!! (the 721 is not perfect,
that's for sure, but i refuse to play
'victim' for making a choice that 
me, myself and i made)...


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## Randy_B

Inaba, I'll do you a huge favor and take it off your hands. I have $150 that I will exchange for your crappy, underdeveloped, featureless, unfriendly, unreliable, ugly, boat anchor of a 721. Box that baby up, get it in the mail (I'll kick in another $20 to cover shipping and insurance) and I'll Paypal you the money for it. You shouldn't have to suffer anymore. $150 will cover the cost to get you into a nice, reliable, attractive, feature filled DirecTivo. Plus it will get rid of one more troll on the board.

Put up or shut up.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Bill D said:


> The fact that we are still waiting for the triple conflict screen and weather applic since like I think April, makes me wonder if they will ever get any other features besides being superdish capable.


Did you watch the tech chat?

These features were announced as being released along with the SuperDish Tuning support.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Randy_B said:


> Put up or shut up.


Haha good one Randy!

Sometimes I really wonder if some of these 721 complainers own or have ever even seen a 721 before.

While some of the comments are justified, some of the comments are just over the top or are just troll's trying to say get a Tivo.

Folks if i wanted a Tivo I would have purchased one.

I know quite a few people who have left behing their Ultimate TV units and Tivos and are now very happy 721 owners.

As someone who has been using the upcoming software release for 5 months I can safely tell you that the software IS worth the wait.


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## sampatterson

Wait, lets make this a bidding war! I'll give you $151 via paypal and $20 for shipping...


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## Cyclone

I've got $152 + Shipping. I'll even throw in a large bag of M&Ms in the payment envelope.


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## Jacob S

I do agree with Inaba in a sense that if more would use the PVR more such as having two events recorded at the same time lots more then there would be more people that would realize the second tuner problem. Also the more you use the PVR the more likely you are to find problems with it. Some may not use it enough to get as many or notice as many problems with the receiver, especially if not many shows are recorded.

I have faith in what Scott is saying on this new software release since he is beta testing it and am thinking that maybe Dish is trying to do things different and right this time. Would you rather not hear of the upcoming software released even if it meant a delay than to know nothing of what may be coming out? I know its frustrating to not get software that was promised though and can understand that.

Also I would be very happy if the 522 got the same operating system that the 721 has. What size hard drive is the 522 going to have?


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## Inaba

Randy_B said:


> Inaba, I'll do you a huge favor and take it off your hands. I have $150 that I will exchange for your crappy, underdeveloped, featureless, unfriendly, unreliable, ugly, boat anchor of a 721. Box that baby up, get it in the mail (I'll kick in another $20 to cover shipping and insurance) and I'll Paypal you the money for it. You shouldn't have to suffer anymore. $150 will cover the cost to get you into a nice, reliable, attractive, feature filled DirecTivo. Plus it will get rid of one more troll on the board.
> 
> Put up or shut up.


This applies to The Beav as well 

I'll *GIVE* my 721 to the first person to pay for my PVR subscription for life (I know they don't have a lifetime subscription) - so you'll have to pay the $5/mo until I cancle my DTV subscription.

First person to front the cash for it gets my 721 for free.

So, Randy, put up, or shut up. Otherwise, you just spout nonsense about the 721. I've already made my case as to why the 721 is a pathetic PVR, you've brought nothing to the table to counter the glaring defects/lack of features in the 721 when compared to the competition.

So like you say... put up or shut up! Give me the same deal E* is giving me on a PVR and programming *subscriptions* and you've got yourself a deal there, sparky! Otherwise, you're just a mindless drone!



> I know quite a few people who have left behing their Ultimate TV units and Tivos and are now very happy 721 owners.
> 
> As someone who has been using the upcoming software release for 5 months I can safely tell you that the software IS worth the wait.


I know you're the admin of the site, and you'll probably ban me for speaking against you...

However... first off, I've never advocated anyone getting a Tivo. I want the 721 to have the features every other PVR on the market has. That's all, nothing more.

Secondly, I'm pretty tired of hearing how YOU'VE been using the new software for months now. You know what? Really, we don't care... it doesn't matter what you have, or how privleged you are to be a beta tester of the software. The *FACTS* of the matter are that few people have it/have seen it. It's not what's coming, it's what is. *MY* and many others 721's are on the "old" software, and the "old" software sucks. Great, new features are coming... but they aren't here yet so _*they don't matter*_ to 99% of the population, because _*they can't use them*_.

The 721, as shipped, is the worst PVR on the market, feature wise. You can't dispute this, compare each PVR, feature for feature against the 721, and it (the 721) comes up lacking. This is not a subjective thing, this is a mathematical thing, unless folks would like to argue against math, now, as well?

Great for you if the 721 does everything you want it to do, that still doesn't change the fact that the 721 LACKS the features of all the other PVRs. Plain and simple, and I don't know how I can spell it out any clearer to the people defending the 721. It does not MATTER that it does what you want it to do... what matters is it lacks features the competition has, and judging by the agreement of many on this (and other) forums, I am not alone in wanting those features on the 721.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, because Randy and other seems to "conveniently" forget this in their haste to defend the 721 blindly, without an ounce of critical thinking involved:

I am an E* customer. I believe in E* as a company. My one, and only PVR is a 721. I have deactivated my UTV's and TIVO in favor of the 721. I do not like D* as a company and refuse to patronize them. I do not feel I was mislead on the 721 purchase. I realize it was my own fault for not researching the 721 more prior to purchasing it.

None of that changes the fact that I and many others are dissatisfied with the 721 as a product. None of that changes the fact that it lacks features other PVRs have. And... get this through your thick skulls... none of that changes the fact that I *want* to use the 721 and I *want* it to have comparable features.

Go on now, amaze me with how you can argue against adding features to the 721 to increase E*'s marketshare!


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## Randy_B

> if more would use the PVR more such as having two events recorded at the same time lots more then there would be more people that would realize the second tuner problem


 Jacob, I do not doubt that you have dealt with this problem first hand. You have documented it well. Fortunately (knock wood), I have not. My family puts the 721 to WORK everyday. With 3 little ones, the 721 records, Dora, Wiggles, Tweenies, Blues Clues, Dragon Tales, Bob the Builder and Buzz Lightyear and Clifford every day. _They don't get to watch them all, they only get to pick one each, but I like to give them choices_. Most of these recordings happen simultaneous to my wife recording All My Children and One Life to Live. (That is why I have a 501 all to myself!!) So two tuners are firing away and recording. I did have a catastrphic crash, once. Luckily just once. Of course I probably just jinxed myself and the 721 is crashing as I type.

Inaba, Once again I will ask, aside from name based recording and its associated branches(season pass & wish list), what is the 721 lacking? You never seem to have any SPECIFICS in your baits.



> I've already made my case as to why the 721 is a pathetic PVR,


 WHERE? Not at this site or DBSForums. If I missed it, please point me to the link or thread.



> feature for feature against the 721, and it (the 721) comes up lacking. This is not a subjective thing, this is a mathematical thing


 SHOW US YOUR MATH! Then we can dispute it. Show me this HUGE list of features that the 721 is obviously (only to you) lacking. I suspect you are just talking the talk. Back it up.

No one is arguing against adding more features. Love 'em, want 'em, bring them on. Scott's teases are making us Nuts! We believe him and are waiting patiently. Christmas comes but once a year as well.

As for market share (we've already beat this in another thread, but . . .), looking at the numbers stated in The Niemeyer Report (an industry analyst that follows the Interactive TV, VOD & DVR market), his projections have E* passing the 1M PVR mark by the end of the next qtr (Oct 03). Tivo, the next closest in #s won't get near 1M until MAYBE 1st qtr CY 2004. MAYBE. Your assertions on E*'s poor market share have no basis in fact!

Feel free to go and get your own subscription to his newsletter (although as a square earth member you might not enjoy it). Subscribe at (it is free!!!):

http://www.centrimedia.com/newsletter.html

If your 721 makes you suffer so much, why keep it? Take Cyclones offer with the M&M's. I can't beat that, although the kids might have left some old thin mints under the couch that I could "dig" out.

If you have an old grumbly, smoky, sputtering Ford Escort that won't get you to work every day and someone walks down your block and offers you $$ equal to that needed to buy what YOU perceive as a great new car, do you expect him to give you gasoline for the rest of your life as well? Take the M&M's and be happy, get rid of your "crappy" "useless" 721.


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## Randy_B

> I know its frustrating to not get software that was promised though and can understand that.


After having been through the DishPlayer updates "experience", I will gladly wait patiently for well tested, well behaved upgrades. Every DP update brought new pain and frustration. Hopefully Dish learned from that. But, I DO like to hear about what may be coming down the pike. I have always been appreciative of Bill R and Scott (and other that have spoken up from time to time, I am sure old timers remember Young One and Matt?) when they give us little tidbits. Most of us know to take it wth a modicum of patience (and salt).


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## Inaba

Randy_B said:


> Inaba, Once again I will ask, aside from name based recording and its associated branches(season pass & wish list), what is the 721 lacking? You never seem to have any SPECIFICS in your baits.
> 
> WHERE? Not at this site or DBSForums. If I missed it, please point me to the link or thread.


I swear, Randy, it's like talking to a brick wall with you. You only "remember" things that suit your case. Go look in the other thread where you bashed me for calling BS on the 721. I pointed out several features that are missing.

But, to asauge your wounded ego, I will list them consisely and in a list form.

Missing features on the 721, including but not limited to the following (in no particular order):

1. Name based recording and its' associated branches (doesn't count in regards to this thread as per Randy)
2. Recorded program organization/grouping (biggy)
3. Usable quick info screen on (recorded only?) programs (if you aren't clear on what I am talking about, I will elaborate)
4. Interactive TV (I personally don't care about this feature, but you want a list)
5. Graceful recovery from problems (hard reboot of the unit is not graceful)
6. Ability to upgrade the hard drive (even if not "officially" supported)
7. Ability to schedule recordings remotely (ALA HMO. UTV lacks this feature, acknowledged.)
8. Ability to use a keyboard (USB) with the unit (Perhaps one exists and I don't know about it? Entirely possible)

Is this enough, or should I go on?



> SHOW US YOUR MATH! Then we can dispute it. Show me this HUGE list of features that the 721 is obviously (only to you) lacking. I suspect you are just talking the talk. Back it up.


Only to me, huh? I guess that's why there are a number of people on this very forum that agree with me that the 721 is lacking. But once again, the E* blinders and the need to justify your hardware purchase regardless of reality lend to your need to claim it's "only me" that has a problem.

Look at the above list, those things are what are found on other PVRs, and not on the 721. So there's your math. At the bare minimum, the 721 lacks 8 features that other PVRs have. If you can provide a list of useful features that the 721 HAS and other PVRs don't, by all means, start putting them out. But the fact of the matter is, you can't, we all know it... just admit you are wrong and move on.



> As for market share (we've already beat this in another thread, but . . .), looking at the numbers stated in The Niemeyer Report (an industry analyst that follows the Interactive TV, VOD & DVR market), his projections have E* passing the 1M PVR mark by the end of the next qtr (Oct 03). Tivo, the next closest in #s won't get near 1M until MAYBE 1st qtr CY 2004. MAYBE. Your assertions on E*'s poor market share have no basis in fact!


I have no brook with your numbers. Maybe E* does have the greater marketshare. But once again, your blinders come into effect, and either you fail at reading comprehension, or you read only what you want to read. I said "Increase market share." I did not anything in regards to what E* already has... or are you implying that E* already has enough and doesn't need more? I'm of the mind more people = better product... but maybe you are an elitist and only YOU should have the "good stuff" and let the other rot.

The only "square earth" person here is you. You are totally unable to comprehend what others (myself included) are telling you. You are totally unable to allow yourself to see the reality of the situation, and your blatant need to justify your purchase and outlay of a considerable sum of cash to make yourself feel better is apparent to a great deal of people. Now, I have provided numbers/items in a line by line format that even YOU might be able to understand. Unless you can provide the same to back up your bogus claims, you need to just take your little fingers off the keyboard, step back and think about how ignorant your arguements sound to anyone with a junior high school education. If, after considering it, you still want to make yourself look like an ignorant buffoon, please, go right ahead and hit that reply button.



> If your 721 makes you suffer so much, why keep it? Take Cyclones offer with the M&M's. I can't beat that, although the kids might have left some old thin mints under the couch that I could "dig" out.


Well, since you are (once again) incapable of reading what I wrote, let me quote it for you:

I said: "I'll *GIVE* my 721 to the first person to pay for my PVR subscription for life (I know they don't have a lifetime subscription) - so you'll have to pay the $5/mo until I cancle my DTV subscription."

I'm going to amend that at this time, because it somewhat contradicts what I later said in that self same post, which I realized at the time, but let stand.

I do not like, nor do I want a D* account, even if it had a lifetime free PVR sub. Currently, the 721 is the *only* option out on the market that can be used to directly record the E* stream on 2 channels at once. If such time as you can provide me with a TIVO/UTV/Replay unit that can do the same, AND there is no PVR fee, I'll give you the unit. But seeing as we both know that isn't going to happen, the 721 is the *only* option available to me. Because it has no competition in the E* arena, I am thusly forced to use this sorry specimen of PVR technology, and therein, I believe, lies the entire problem with the 721. There's no alternative. If there was, the 721 would be a fading memory, or it would have the features that it's lacking.

It's a good strategy for E* on some levels, I'm not denying that. But just because it's the *only* option for E* doesn't mean it's a *good* option, which is a distinction you seem incapable of grasping in any way, shape or form.


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## Mike D-CO5

"And these are the days of our lives................."


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## dbronstein

*1. Name based recording and its' associated branches (doesn't count in regards to this thread as per Randy)*

The biggest problem with the 721.

*2. Recorded program organization/grouping (biggy)*

A bit of an annoyance, but not that big of a problem.

*3. Usable quick info screen on (recorded only?) programs (if you aren't clear on what I am talking about, I will elaborate)*

Also a bit of an annoyance, but not a big deal.

*4. Interactive TV (I personally don't care about this feature, but you want a list)*

I don't care about this either so it's a non-issue IMO.

*5. Graceful recovery from problems (hard reboot of the unit is not graceful)*

I agree, I'd say it locks up and I have to reboot once or twice a month. I only had to reboot my Replay once or twice in two years. But I don't consider this a "feature" - basic reliability is not a feature, it's a quality issue.

*6. Ability to upgrade the hard drive (even if not "officially" supported)*

A non-issue IMO. 90 hours is more than enough time.

*7. Ability to schedule recordings remotely (ALA HMO. UTV lacks this feature, acknowledged.)*

Also a non-issue. I don't recall ever wishing I could do this.

*8. Ability to use a keyboard (USB) with the unit (Perhaps one exists and I don't know about it? Entirely possible)*

Yet another non-issue.

There's no question the software on the 721 is inferior to other PVRs. But calling it a "sorry specimen of PVR technology" is completely absurd.

Dennis


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## Inaba

> There's no question the software on the 721 is inferior to other PVRs. But calling it a "sorry specimen of PVR technology" is completely absurd.


I should have clarified this in that particular post, but it was relying on my previous post in this thread. The 721 IS a sorry specimen of PVR technology _*when compared to it's competition*_. As I said previously, if the 721 was out 10 years ago (heck, even 3 or 4 years ago) it would be a stellar piece of technology, but since it's out now and compares to the current crop of PVRs, it's pathetic when COMPARED to those PVRs.

As for the "non-issue" deal on the list. That's your opinion. I have different opinions, but as Randy is unable to grasp -- it's not about opinions, it's about facts. Whether you find the feature useful or not, a lot of people do, and other PVRs have it... the 721 does not. That's the entirety of my point. The 721 lacks important features (they may not be important to you, but they are important none the less, otherwise they wouldn't be on every other PVR on the market).


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## Scott Greczkowski

I would take the offer of $120 an run. That's 4 years of Tivo service on DirecTV which should be more then the life of the unit. 

Or if you wernt so cheep you could get the good package and have no Tivo fees. 

Your argument is so full of holes I could call it swiss cheese. 

The 721 may not have all the features of other units but it is the best Dish PVR to date. While I agree Echostar did once again put the cart before the horse in offering features which were not (and in some cases) still are not available on the unit the 721 is a very reliable machine. I belive since I owned my 721 it missed two recordings. (Compaired to my Dishplayers that is a great number)

The 721 had more features at release then any other Dish PVR, if you owned a 501 at release you will know what I mean.

I will also state that I wish companies other then Dish manufactured Dish compatable equipment, that would open the technology greatly for Dish Customers (and I dont mean RCA slapping a RCA Sticker on a 301)

I do know I get annoying saying how great the new Dish software is, but I say it because 1) it is a great upgrade 2) Many folks are fustrated that the software is not out yet and I am insuring them how pleased I am with it and to hang in there because it is worth the wait.

You seem to be spouting off about YOUR problems that you had with your 721 but I do not recall seeing you say what any of the problems are. I know there are around 1000 people who visit this forum who also own Dish PVR 721 and I don't see them complaigning about problems, infact I would be willing to guess that they are happy with their purchase. Again I will say I do know things are missing (i.e. Name based Recordings) but those have NOTHING to do with the operation of the 721, it works as designed, and it works well.

Finally I am not going to ban you for speaking out, thats silly this is DBSTalk.COM, and engaging in these kind of friendly exchanges is why we are here.


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## Inaba

I swear I'm not camping this thread...



> The 721 may not have all the features of other units but it is the best Dish PVR to date. While I agree Echostar did once again put the cart before the horse in offering features which were not (and in some cases) still are not available on the unit the 721 is a very reliable machine. I belive since I owned my 721 it missed two recordings. (Compaired to my Dishplayers that is a great number)
> 
> The 721 had more features at release then any other Dish PVR, if you owned a 501 at release you will know what I mean.


I'm not arguing that the 721 is the best _Dish_ PVR to date. I have never used any other Dish PVR, so I will happily take your word for it. The only PVRs I've used besides dish are UTV and Tivo.

My UTV and my Tivo have never crashed on me. The Tivo did not get heavy use, and thus I may have been lucky in not seeing the crashes ... but the UTV never, not once, crashed unexpectedly on me. I never missed a show (although I did accidentally have several deleted due to me failing to set the "delete after 5 shows" flag properlyl) due to time slot changes *OR* unit failures.

With my 721 now a bit over a month old, I've already missed several shows (and continue to do so, due to lack of name based recording... but that's a dead horse) and I've had the unit crash to an X desktop and reboot twice. In a months time, that's already 300% more problems with the unit than I had with the UTV unit in 2 years. That's an abysmal failure rate.



> I do know I get annoying saying how great the new Dish software is, but I say it because 1) it is a great upgrade 2) Many folks are fustrated that the software is not out yet and I am insuring them how pleased I am with it and to hang in there because it is worth the wait.


Great, I can't wait to see it. I mean that seriously and earnestly. I *want* to see it... but I can only comment on what I can see now, and that's what I'm commenting on. What I wish you COULD provide, in this aspect, is specific features that *will* be making it into the next release. If you could definitively state "Yes, name based recording and such and such will be in the release at the end of August" I would be much more satisfied with what you say. But (and I realize this isn't YOUR fault) the vague and essentially meaningless alluding to new features that *might* be in the next release at some nebulous date is nothing but frustrating. Sure, we *might* see the 721 grow wings, oink like a pig and fly around the room someday... but who knows when that day will be, so what's the point of alluding to things that *might* happen.



> You seem to be spouting off about YOUR problems that you had with your 721 but I do not recall seeing you say what any of the problems are. I know there are around 1000 people who visit this forum who also own Dish PVR 721 and I don't see them complaigning about problems, infact I would be willing to guess that they are happy with their purchase. Again I will say I do know things are missing (i.e. Name based Recordings) but those have NOTHING to do with the operation of the 721, it works as designed, and it works well.


Well, I thought I made that clear in the "Sad panda" thread. But I'll reiterate it here, for me personally:

If these issues were addressed, for me personally, I would love the 721 and expound on it's greatness. It's a short list.

1. Name based recording
2. Intelligent recorded program organization
3. HMO (Ability to schedule recordings remotely)

That's it. Number 3 I could live with out, but the first two are what totally and utterly ruins the 721 for me PERSONALLY. Every other feature on other PVRs I can easily live without, but 1 and 2 are the absolute most important problems I have with the 721. I can even live with the crashes and glitches, given those two features, as long as the crashing and glitching didn't get worse. Without those two features, the 721 is a glorified VCR, not a PVR as far as I'm concerned.

Also, I'm not arguing that the 721 works as designed (crashes not withstanding) -- that's excactly the problem. It was not designed properly from the get-go. If the name based recording was broken, but was intended to be in there, I'd feel much better about the 721 (paradoxially, I know) than I do now. But since it was a feature that was intentionall left out, I feel that the 721 design team has little grasp on customer wants... which bodes poorly for any future endeavors until proven otherwise. At least if it was there and broken, I'd know they have a clue as to what's useful and what isn't, even if they are to shoddy to get it right the first time.


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## dbronstein

Inaba said:


> I should have clarified this in that particular post, but it was relying on my previous post in this thread. The 721 IS a sorry specimen of PVR technology _*when compared to it's competition*_. As I said previously, if the 721 was out 10 years ago (heck, even 3 or 4 years ago) it would be a stellar piece of technology, but since it's out now and compares to the current crop of PVRs, it's pathetic when COMPARED to those PVRs.


And I still think it's a ridiculous comment.



Inaba said:


> If these issues were addressed, for me personally, I would love the 721 and expound on it's greatness. It's a short list.
> 
> 1. Name based recording
> 2. Intelligent recorded program organization
> 3. HMO (Ability to schedule recordings remotely)


I agree completely on 1 and 2, although I don't really see them as separate features. Program organization is pretty much tied to name-based recording.

As for the remote recordings, I'm curious to know how many people who have PVRs with this ability actually use it.

Dennis


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## Jacob S

Having owned every single Dish PVR made so far, I will say that the software is getting better and better, not as buggy and less troublesome, but their hardware issues had gotten worse at the same time going from a Dishplayer to a 501 and then from a 501 to a 721 there may be fewer hardware problems in that the hard drives and tuners both do not go bad, just the tuners still just as the 501 done, from what I have seen so far. My concern has went from software to hardware issues. The main thing that comes first to me is how good the hardware is, that needs to be addressed first.


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## chris_h

Originally posted by Inaba:
3. Usable quick info screen on (recorded only?) programs (if you aren't clear on what I am talking about, I will elaborate)


Okay, I will bite. Please elaborate. If you can do it without name-calling, all the better! The 721 is the only PVR I have ever used, so using other PVRs methods as examples would be meaningless to me.

One feature of the 721 that may be what you are looking for is by hitting the "info" button in the pvr-events section, it will tell you some info about the recording (time, movie synopsis, movie rating, critique in terms of "stars"). I am not sure if that is what you are looking for here. I suspect not.


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## Inaba

> Okay, I will bite. Please elaborate. If you can do it without name-calling, all the better! The 721 is the only PVR I have ever used, so using other PVRs methods as examples would be meaningless to me.


No name calling, I promise. I only resorted to that with Randy because that's what he seems to be stuck on doing so to get his points across. I tend to rise to the level of fire, not the other way around!

To elaborate, though, here's what I mean:

Say you are in PVR or the guide, and you go to a particular show. In the box, it will show the program name, date, names of the actors, and about 10 letters of the actual program description. You *MUST* hit the info button to get an accurate description of the show.

This is pointless. I don't care 90% of the time who the actors in the show are, or it's air date, I want to know what the show is about (the synopsis) - if I want that additional info, such as the actors, etc... I will hit info. But I don't need that same info over and over about the actors of a series, etc...

Again, I'll use SG-1 as an example. Do I really need to know Amanda Tapping and Richard Dean Anderson is in SG1? No, I already know that. I want to know what that particular episode is about. If I want additional information, that's when I'd hit info. But as it stands now, all I get is about 10 letters of the actual episode description, and it gets cut off, forcing me to move to another U/I screen entirely to get the info I want.

I hope I explained that better. A picture is worth a thousand words, so if not, I'll take a pic of the screen I'm talking about, as I think it would be easier to describe that way.


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## gary s

I guess as they say, ignorance is bliss. Because I have only had DishNetwork PVRs, am not familiar with name-based recording (other than what I have read in this forum), and am quite happy with my 721. I guess, from what I understand, I could be lazier than I already am if I had name-based recording. As it is now, I check my guide (EPG) daily and set up any programs I want to record. If I am going to be away from home for a few days I check the guide for those days and set up any recordings I want. I have several weekly recordings set up but I still check my guide to see that they are on. If I had name-based recording I wouldn't have to check my guide so carefully? Is that the big advantage to name-based recording?


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## Scott Greczkowski

Inaba said:


> This is pointless. I don't care 90% of the time who the actors in the show are, or it's air date, I want to know what the show is about (the synopsis) - if I want that additional info, such as the actors, etc... I will hit info. But I don't need that same info over and over about the actors of a series, etc...


This is a guide issue not a 721 issue, all Dish PVR's now use the same guide so this would happen on any Dish Receiver.

It seems like when must carry was put in place the good decriptions we had were replaced by poor descriptions to make the EPG data smaller.


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## Jacob S

Was that part of the EPG compression they did a while back?


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## Scott Greczkowski

No not part of the compression, before Must carry a show would have a lot more description, for example (and just an example, it may not be accurate as I am not in front of my TV.

Take the show Big Brother, the description would say something like...
"12 Houseguest live together in a house isolated from the rest of the world, tonight we will find out who will be the first evicted from the house."

Now today if you look at Big Brokers description it says ...
"Reality Show / Series"

Some description huh?

Again its the guide and not the PVR.


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## Chaos

I'll bite on the UTV issue. As an owner of both a 501 and a 721, I've never replaced either (knock on wood). I replaced two UTV boxes in 15 months. The first for a burnt out power supply and the second for a fried tuner that prevented it from doing much of anything. I actually prefer the 721 to the UTV box.


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## Randy_B

> only resorted to that with Randy because that's what he seems to be stuck on doing so to get his points across. I tend to rise to the level of fire, not the other way around!


Excuse me!!! Show me where I called you a name. I addressed you by your handle, only. Who called who a mindless drone.

I was trying to be good and not take your troll bait any more. Your list of features aren't FEATURES. Hacking the box to replace the HD is NOT a feature. Just for giggles I called Tivo cust service and aske dif they could fax me the directions to do it. The rep said the company does not promote doing it. It can be done, the internet has directions, but she said I would void my warranty if I did.

Not pushing the info button to get a show description is not a feature! It is just lazy.

HNO costs an extra $100. Again not a feature. A feature is built in the unit provided. Buying Windows XP when I had W2K is not a feature. I got features with XP but buying wasn't one.

You can use a USB keyboard and mouse with the 721. Having the cord hangs there sucks, but it works.

I can't find any info on the Tivo site on folders. IF they do exist, THAT is a feature and it is very nice one. I want those! Until then, the name sort works fine. That is a feature.



> crashed unexpectedly on me


Graceful recovery. What the hell is that? Please DESCRIBE that feature. It is not. Plus it sounds like your UTV had "expected" crashes! What is that. It crashes, it reboots.

Every other Dish receiver has ITV, no reason to believe the 721 won't.

So we are back to name based recording as the only real difference. Now IF my 721 (and 501) have NEVER missed show, what is the value?

To reiterate, Dish came to market nearly 2 yrs after Tivo and Repaly were on shelves. Dish now outpaces Tivo by about 10% per quarter, Replay (actually THE superior PVR) is about to fall off the roadmap and UTV has been orphaned by its breeders (until it revives in X-Box 2 in 2005). Name one other crappy product that has seized its market this way.

Not once did I say the point of your argument was less sharp than the top of your head.

See, now you made me do it. Pardon me while I go sit in the corner and take a time out.
:bonk1:


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## dbronstein

Randy_B said:


> I can't find any info on the Tivo site on folders. IF they do exist, THAT is a feature and it is very nice one. I want those! Until then, the name sort works fine. That is a feature.


Replay has a really cool way of sorting recordings. It displays a grid with the show name down the side and then the episodes across. It's not the same as folders, but it's much better than having one long list like on the 721.

Dennis


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## Inaba

Randy_B said:


> Excuse me!!! Show me where I called you a name. I addressed you by your handle, only. Who called who a mindless drone.


Let me quote you:

"Feel free to go and get your own subscription to his newsletter (although as a square earth member you might not enjoy it). Subscribe at (it is free!!!):"

Now, unless my assumption about you is totally wrong (and please, by all means feel free to correct me if I am off base) - you do not believe the earth is square, and thus you find people who do believe that the earth is square to be stupid, ignorant, idiotic, or you can insert your own derogatory term... because you did use it in a deragator manner. Please feel free to try and contradict this. Now, you can claim that you did not call anyone names, but be honest with yourself (you don't have to be honest with anyone else, because everyone else already knows the truth, you're the only one denying it) - were you not implying that I was an idiot with that statement?

Regardless, I am happy to return this debate to a more civil level if you think you can hold you temper and behave yourself like an adult. So far, you are batting 0, and I have little faith in your ability to do so, but if you try hard enough, you may succeed, and I am happy to give you that chance, just say the word. I'll assume you have said the word for the remainder of this post.



> I was trying to be good and not take your troll bait any more. Your list of features aren't FEATURES. Hacking the box to replace the HD is NOT a feature. Just for giggles I called Tivo cust service and aske dif they could fax me the directions to do it. The rep said the company does not promote doing it. It can be done, the internet has directions, but she said I would void my warranty if I did.


I must thank you for this wonderful bit of prose. I've already experienced this, but some of these nice folks watching the party have yet to see it. This is such a wonderful example of how a Zealot reacts to facts, that it should be archived somewhere for posterity.

I said I would not call you names, and perhaps I am breaking that promise, however, you are a zealot. There is no possible doubt about that, and it's an inescapable conclusion. Zealots, by their very nature, are incapable of believing anything but their own beliefs (I realize that is a contradictory or obvious statement, bear with me), and can not accept that things might be different. Zealots can not accept the fact that reality may not conform to their world view, and thus delude themselves, at all costs, into denying anything that contradicts what they believe. Randy, this you. I don't except you to change, it's next to impossible to get a zealot to change his stripes. However, I am (once again) going to beat you to a bloody pulp with facts in hopes that even one little iota of truth will sink in.

Normally, I do not resort to using a dictionary to validate or bolster my arguement, but in your case, it seems that it's warranted, because you obviously don't want to admit to the defintion of a feature.

Feature: A prominent or distinctive aspect, quality, or characteristic: a feature of one's personality; a feature of the landscape.

This is from dictionary.com ... feel free to use whatever dictionary you have handy if you wish.

A "Prominent aspect" of the Tivo and UTV (and Replay?) is that you can upgrade the hard drive. This is an unquestionable fact. If you try to dispute it, you will be a moronic idiot, so please don't. People buy Tivo's specifically because they can upgrade the hard drive. It is a feature. You can deny reality all you want, but there is no sane, healthy individual in the world that will disagree with the fact that a Tivo and UTV HD upgrade conforms to the definition of feature.



> Not pushing the info button to get a show description is not a feature! It is just lazy.


Using the EPG is lazy. What kind of rebuttal is that? Do you even understand what you've written, or are you typing words randomly? If wanting access to quick information is "lazy," then why are you even using a computer? It's used to access information quickly. You should be doing everything by US Mail by your logic.

Oddly enough, this could fall under the definition of "feature" as well.



> HNO costs an extra $100. Again not a feature. A feature is built in the unit provided. Buying Windows XP when I had W2K is not a feature. I got features with XP but buying wasn't one.


With each point, you amaze me in your inability to grasp simple concepts. Of course HMO (not HNO, HMO is short of Home Media Option) ... and thus it's an option. An option is a feature. Don't believe me? Lets travel to dictionary.com again.

Option: An item or feature that may be chosen to replace or enhance standard equipment, as in a car.

Wow... Feature is right there in the definition. Option = Feature, Feature = option. The frigging word OPTION is in "HMO" (or HNO if you prefer) - how frigging ridiculous can _you_ get trying to refute that it's a feature, when it's got a synonym for "feature" IN THE FRIGGIN ACRONYM?

*This is why you are a zealot Randy. You refuse to admit you are wrong, even when the very NAME of the item in question describes the exact opposite of what you are saying.*



> I can't find any info on the Tivo site on folders. IF they do exist, THAT is a feature and it is very nice one. I want those! Until then, the name sort works fine. That is a feature.


It exists in UTV, which is what I was thinking of when writing my previous post. I don't know about ReplayTV.



> Graceful recovery. What the hell is that? Please DESCRIBE that feature. It is not. Plus it sounds like your UTV had "expected" crashes! What is that. It crashes, it reboots.


My UTV had ZERO crashes. What part of "_*My UTV and my Tivo have never crashed on me*_" was unclear in my previous post? Did you not understand that sentence? Oh... my mistake, it's another example of a statement directly in opposition to your world view, and thus it is not something you are capable of seeing/understanding/believing.



> Every other Dish receiver has ITV, no reason to believe the 721 won't.


But yet... it doesn't have it. We're not talking about "will have," Randy. Stop throwing out red-herrings to bolster your case. It's already in a complete and utter shambles. It broke up like Columbia and is scattered over several states at this point, quit while you're ahead man. Think of the children!



> So we are back to name based recording as the only real difference. Now IF my 721 (and 501) have NEVER missed show, what is the value?


Name based recording is already beat to death, and I think we both agree that it's a missing "feature." So there's no need to discuss it at this juncture.



> To reiterate, Dish came to market nearly 2 yrs after Tivo and Repaly were on shelves. Dish now outpaces Tivo by about 10% per quarter, Replay (actually THE superior PVR) is about to fall off the roadmap and UTV has been orphaned by its breeders (until it revives in X-Box 2 in 2005). Name one other crappy product that has seized its market this way.


I'm not now, nor have I been refuting your evidence that Dish has outpaced the other PVRs in this thread. I have doubts of the veracity of the numbers, but in the absense of any evidence to the contrary, I will agree that the numbers you have provided are, in fact, the accurate numbers.

Name one other crappy product? Christ on a crutch, where do I begin? Before I give you a list, I'd like you to define what you mean by "sieze" the market. Are we talking about a product that has outstripped it's competitors (regardless of volume)? Are we talking about sheer volume of sales (regardless of competitors sales)?

The Dish PVR is hard to pigeon hole in the way you want it pigeon holed (but I will do it with a little more clarification) - the fact that E* has a lock out of their entire network for stream recording poses a problem in comparing sales of one PVR (say Tivo) to the 721... oh, but wait, E* sales of PVRs include ALL their PVRs, not just the 721 (if it includes the 721 at all) - so that throws another wrench into it. I do not know the quality of ANY other Dish PVR, so I can not, with good conscience say that the 721 has outstripped anything or that the other Dish PVRs suck. In fact, since we are talking specifically about the 721, I'd say it's probably last in line in terms of sales vs. other PVRs. But that's also an unfair comparison, and I realize that... so you need to define what you want a little more clearly before I provide you with an accurate list.

Make no mistake, I can and will provide you with that list once the parameters are defined.



> Not once did I say the point of your argument was less sharp than the top of your head.


Oops! There we go with the names again, Randykins. Shame on you... try to do better next time, sport!

Anyway, Randy, I'm appealing to whatever shred of common sense that might still swirl around inside your head: Think about what you write before you write it. Use critical thinking; step back and ask yourself if what you've written actually makes sense to _*other people*_ before hitting that submit reply button.

Unlike you (I suspect), if confronted with facts, I *will* change my mind/opinion about a piece of hardware/software. So far, the only facts you've brought forth are the number of sales, which I still find suspect, but I *will* believe them until such time as they are proven wrong.


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## marshalk

I look at this as two levels of changes. The key features that relate to basic functionality and cool new features that would be great to have but are not really "core". For me, name based recording is a key feature while web browsing on my TV would be cool but not core to a PVR. Personally I would like dish to focus on core functionality and add groovy features as time allows. The key features I see the need for are:

1) Name based recording
2) An EPG that is on 119 AND 110 for those who can not "see" 110, or at least make it so I do not have to reboot every three days to see the 2.5 day guide
3) A way to organize saved recordings into folders
4) A lot, a whole lot, less noisy. Use a drive with fluid dynamic bearings. This machines is in living rooms and dens and should be silent...or nearly so.


----------



## Neil Derryberry

OK, enough. The flaming stops here, or the thread closes.


----------



## chris_h

Re: Inaba's request for "quick guide info"



Scott Greczkowski said:


> This is a guide issue not a 721 issue, all Dish PVR's now use the same guide so this would happen on any Dish Receiver.
> .


Okay, I went home and looked at the screen, so now I see what Inaba is talking about here. I have to agree with Scott, it is a guide issue.

Here is a potential solution. If the guide info for each event is broken up into the following fields:
1) show type: series, movie, education, children, etc
2) talent: actors, director, narrator, etc
3) show synopsis: Explosion aboard Apollo 13 spacecraft causes....

Then each user could set a preference for what order the fields are displayed in.

While I personally have not found hitting the "info" button to be a big deal, I admit that my preference would be 3,2,1 as opposed to the current 1,2,3. I always have been a little backward.

Does anyone reading this thread have visibility into whether or not the show info is broken up into these fields already? Scott G, are you willing to ask E* ? I suspect that it is broken up at the source computer, but probably not in the data stream coming from the bird(s).


----------



## dbronstein

chris_h said:


> Here is a potential solution. If the guide info for each event is broken up into the following fields:
> 1) show type: series, movie, education, children, etc
> 2) talent: actors, director, narrator, etc
> 3) show synopsis: Explosion aboard Apollo 13 spacecraft causes....
> 
> Then each user could set a preference for what order the fields are displayed in.


It can also be seen as a screen layout issue. If they could redo the screen so that the entire description fits, then it wouldn't matter what order the info is listed. Although I don't know if it's even possible to come up with a workable layout that would do it.

Dennis


----------



## Inaba

dbronstein said:


> It can also be seen as a screen layout issue. If they could redo the screen so that the entire description fits, then it wouldn't matter what order the info is listed. Although I don't know if it's even possible to come up with a workable layout that would do it.
> 
> Dennis


That was my thought... it seems like it's just a matter of expanding the "usable" space inside the info box.

I don't care that it HAS that info, even if it's first in the list... I just want to be able to see the info I'm interested in without having to go to yet another screen. Unless there is some extremely strange technical issue, I can't see why this would be that hard to fix (or why it was done in the first place?)

It's not a make or break issue with me, I can live with that shortcoming... I just pointed it out for posterity. My big issues have already been echo'd here


----------



## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> It's not a make or break issue with me, I can live with that shortcoming... I just pointed it out for posterity. My big issues have already been echo'd here


Problem is you've echoed your big issues about the 721 for the last two months now over and over to the point of absolute absurdity. You constantly over-generalize about other posters on here. You constantly make wrongful assumptions about others on here. You *****. You whine. You complain like the little girl who threatens to take her ball home ending a game early when she doesn't get things her way. And you repeat the same ridiculous mantras every single week always playing the role of the bitter victim. Get over it already and move on to something positive for the love of god. This horse was beaten to death ten times over months ago by yourself. Sing a new song or give it a rest for awhile if you would. People get tired of the same ol' same ol' over and over again.


----------



## Inaba

Unthinkable said:


> Problem is you've echoed your big issues about the 721 for the last two months now over and over to the point of absolute absurdity. You constantly over-generalize about other posters on here. You constantly make wrongful assumptions about others on here. You *****. You whine. You complain like the little girl who threatens to take her ball home ending a game early when she doesn't get things her way. And you repeat the same ridiculous mantras every single week always playing the role of the bitter victim. Get over it already and move on to something positive for the love of god. This horse was beaten to death ten times over months ago by yourself. Sing a new song or give it a rest for awhile if you would. People get tired of the same ol' same ol' over and over again.


Ahh, lets see who's overgeneralizing, shall we?

June 20th, 2003, 03:51 PM  - Slightly over a month, hardly anywhere near 2 months.

What wrongful assumptions have I made? The only assumptions I've made about other people have been in the form of "I believe or I'll wager," etc... Are you threatened by my opinion? Gosh, I wonder why that could be? Maybe because they hit a bit close to home?

Let's see... I *****, I whine, and I complain like a little girl. Uh huh. You go, girl! I'm glad you consider informed opinions, backed by facts to be "*****ing, whining and complaining like a little girl." Someone disagrees with you, and you claim it's *****ing, whining and complaining. I bet you're a real hit at parties and at your job. Do you have any friends?



> Get over it already and move on to something positive for the love of god. This horse was beaten to death ten times over months ago by yourself.


There ya go again, over generalizing!

Regardless -- the only people here vehemently disagreeing with me publically are... lets see, you and Randy. Between the two of you, you've both been able to contribute exactly one fact to all of your *****ing about my *****ing. The only thing you and Randy have provided are assumptions, false claims and wishful thinking. Like I told Randy, bring your facts to the table in regards to my criticism, if they are indeed valid, I will happily change my opinion/mantra/whatever you want to call it. But you have as yet to bring any sort of fact to the table to counter anything I've said... at least Randy was able to scrounge up some corroborating numbers to his sales claim.

So go play with Randy in his corner and let the adults speak, you can come out when you can refute anything I've said with something more than blatant fanatacism.

*EDIT* - I just went back through all the posts I've posted, and the associated threads. It's pretty much you and Randy disagreeing, for the most part, everyone else either agrees or is neutral. There are several minor features that people disagree with, and that's to be expected... but it's only you and Randy arguing against the major features. What does that tell you? In case you can't grasp it, I'll give you a hint: Neither you nor Randy have any clue what you are talking about. Don't believe me? Go back through the threads. I can't believe some of the things you've written, they are hilarious and obviously come from someone so ill-informed, that he's making it up as he goes along, all the while hoping no one will catch his BS act. Rock on, with your fantasies if it makes you feel better... just don't reply to me with your tired BS any longer. If you don't like readin' my stuff, don't read it, don't reply to it, and everyone is happy!


----------



## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> Ahh, lets see who's overgeneralizing, shall we?
> 
> June 20th, 2003, 03:51 PM  - Slightly over a month, hardly anywhere near 2 months.
> 
> What wrongful assumptions have I made? The only assumptions I've made about other people have been in the form of "I believe or I'll wager," etc... Are you threatened by my opinion? Gosh, I wonder why that could be? Maybe because they hit a bit close to home?


In truth, you've assumed all along that no one else involved in these discussions commenting on the 721's have ever had any experience whatsoever with Tivo, Replay, or Ultimate TV ever since day one for starters, that people on here never toy around and experiment with competitors products in weighing out advantages and disadvantages, and that name based recordings are the end all be all deal breaker making the receiver completely worthless to all and a complete disgrace to all of mankind. I don't know a single poster on here threatened by your opinion when you've only offered up repeated disdain in your rants for the lack of name based recordings in 36 posts here. They call that a one hit wonder in the music business only your tiring tirades aren't hits by any stretch of the imagination. That horse was bludgeoned to death, shot, set ablaze, hung, defecated on, buried, then dug up and set ablaze again every time a new thread comes up about the 721 and you feel the need to throw in your two cents worth about how big of an atrocity the 721 is. Instead of all the repeated complaining you really need to just do something about it to resolve things and bring some finality to your life here.



> Let's see... I *****, I whine, and I complain like a little girl. Uh huh. You go, girl! I'm glad you consider informed opinions, backed by facts to be "*****ing, whining and complaining like a little girl." Someone disagrees with you, and you claim it's *****ing, whining and complaining. I bet you're a real hit at parties and at your job. Do you have any friends?


I have no qualms at all with civilized debates and discussions on here when posters actually exercise their opinions and points with something called respect, humor, and common sense. IMO, you routinely show little to no respect or class towards other fellow posters in this forum and appear to be more concerned with stroking your over-inflated ego with your posts always with the condescending tones and holier then thou attitudes repeatedly destroying any credibility that might have been generated in good faith from decent points. Answer me this. Do you sit around and pat yourself on the back for an hour everytime you launch off on another I HATE MY PROFOUNDLY DISTURBING, LIFE -ENDING, IQ DRAINING, THIS RECEIVER IS THE WORST PIECE OF F'ING GARBAGE EVER DEVISED WHICH I"VE EVER HAD THE DISPLEASURE OF EXPERIENCING hate crusades on here? It would certainly appear to be that way from an outsiders point of view.



> There ya go again, over generalizing!
> 
> Regardless -- the only people here vehemently disagreeing with me publically are... lets see, you and Randy. Between the two of you, you've both been able to contribute exactly one fact to all of your *****ing about my *****ing. The only thing you and Randy have provided are assumptions, false claims and wishful thinking. Like I told Randy, bring your facts to the table in regards to my criticism, if they are indeed valid, I will happily change my opinion/mantra/whatever you want to call it. But you have as yet to bring any sort of fact to the table to counter anything I've said... at least Randy was able to scrounge up some corroborating numbers to his sales claim.


I honestly could care less about whether or not the 721 ever gets name based recording. More important to me is that it records in full what I tell it to record for later playback and that it gradually improves with time. Back when I had two 501's I once thought name-based recordings would be a welcomed addition, but at this point its no longer desirable at all when it takes no time out of my day to blaze through a couple hours of programming in the program guide on the various channels I really watch the most of to see if anything interesting is on. I drive a manual transmission as well for better mileage and better all around vehicle control. Don't need it to be automated when the slightest of multi-tasking skills are thrown into the equation. People talk on cell phones, drive cars, hunt around for cds to play in the front seat, drink drinks, eat meals etc... every day of our lives. I've yet to hear a single plausible counter from you in all of your responses to my point that name based recording is nothing but a lazy mans automated luxury item like cruise control (a tool welcomed and desired by lots and lots of people by all means, but one not centrally vital whatsoever to enjoying life to the fullest) which makes your contention that the 721 is total garbage completely irrevelent. Amazing that how works eh?



> So go play with Randy in his corner and let the adults speak, you can come out when you can refute anything I've said with something more than blatant fanatacism.
> 
> *EDIT* - I just went back through all the posts I've posted, and the associated threads. It's pretty much you and Randy disagreeing, for the most part, everyone else either agrees or is neutral. There are several minor features that people disagree with, and that's to be expected... but it's only you and Randy arguing against the major features. What does that tell you? In case you can't grasp it, I'll give you a hint: Neither you nor Randy have any clue what you are talking about. Don't believe me? Go back through the threads. I can't believe some of the things you've written, they are hilarious and obviously come from someone so ill-informed, that he's making it up as he goes along, all the while hoping no one will catch his BS act. Rock on, with your fantasies if it makes you feel better... just don't reply to me with your tired BS any longer. If you don't like readin' my stuff, don't read it, don't reply to it, and everyone is happy!


Funny how when all else fails and logic is quickly fleeting, everyone else with vocal opposing viewpoints in discussions are clueless, hilarious, ill-informed and full of complete BS. Its a bit like the same rhetoric where everyone else on the road is an ******* and you are the single best driver the world has ever seen every waking moment of your life. Rather narrow-minded if you ask me. If you found so many "talking out of my ass BS quotes" by myself, I wish you'd at least do me the honor of posting them here citing actual examples for one instead of making veiled references you have no intention of backing up unless called out for. Folks posting nothing but blonde jokes on this site everyday contribute more substance, flair, style, presentation, ingenuity, and innovation then the recycled/regurgitated tired old rants we've seen from you in your brief illustrious career here on DBS Talk.com with all of 36 posts. Enjoy the rest of your "I'm the most brilliant poster ever to hit a keyboard rhetoric" my friend. Whatever makes you happy. Try not to throw your back out patting yourself on the back each and everyday though.


----------



## Randy_B

> I understand that the browser they were / or are going to use is OpenTV based so in order for things to work they need to get OpenTV working on the 721 first.


Does the OpenTV based browser needs to do the same kinds of conversion that WebTV has to do with a web page, or caches/converts a limited number of partner sites? In other words, is internet browsing hamstrung in the OpenTV browser?


----------



## Inaba

Unthinkable said:


> In truth, you've assumed all along that no one else involved in these discussions commenting on the 721's have ever had any experience whatsoever with Tivo, Replay, or Ultimate TV ever since day one for starters, that people on here never toy around and experiment with competitors products in weighing out advantages and disadvantages, and that name based recordings are the end all be all deal breaker making the receiver completely worthless to all and a complete disgrace to all of mankind.


No, you have assumed that I do not believe that people have engaged other PVRs. I've never said any such thing, in fact, I have asked people if they have.

Generally speaking, a good majority of the posters that have responded have _not_ used other PVR's (other than Dish PVRs)... and when I make that assertation, it is based off of what has already been written.

I will address the "already been written" in a moment, because it bears some elaboration, aparently.



> I don't know a single poster on here threatened by your opinion when you've only offered up repeated disdain in your rants for the lack of name based recordings in 36 posts here.


You don't know of a single poster? Well, go look in the mirror, it's you and Randy. You two appear to be the only two threatened by my disdain for the 721. I suspect it's because you have to justify your cash outlay to yourselves. I've seen it many times in various areas of hardware (and occasionally software) purchases. It's a very clear and identifiable trait among people such as yourself. Heck, I've done it myself in the past, I'm not above reproach in that area. It's very hard to realize when you are engaging in it, and believe me... you and Randy are textbook examples of this.

No, I'm not psychoanaylizing you, just speaking from almost 20 years of posting experience.

My 36 posts have not all been about this particular subject. The majority of them have, yes... that's simply because I do not have any other type of Dish PVR, I am comfortable with the programming on Dish, and I have no desire to engage in any sort of discourse with the DTV crowd.



> I have no qualms at all with civilized debates and discussions on here when posters actually exercise their opinions and points with something called respect, humor, and common sense. IMO, you routinely show little to no respect or class towards other fellow posters in this forum and appear to be more concerned with stroking your over-inflated ego with your posts always with the condescending tones and holier then thou attitudes repeatedly destroying any credibility that might have been generated in good faith from decent points.


I would like you to demonstrate where you see this. The only two people I have been rude to, or shown little respect to are you and Randy. You both come out and attack me, essentially calling me an idiot for wanting more functionality on the 721. You then try to cut down and dismiss my desire for features found on other PVRs.

I'm sorry, friend, but you (and Randy) attacked _me_ first. I WILL be happy to provide you with links to posts indicating this. In the meantime, I suggest you go back through my 36 posts, and dig up the time stamps for messages where I was rude and disrespectful to anyone prior to them doing the same to me. If you are able to dig that up, I'll agree with you. Barring that, you are, once again, talking smack. Not that that's very suprising.



> I've yet to hear a single plausible counter from you in all of your responses to my point that name based recording is nothing but a lazy mans automated luxury item like cruise control (a tool welcomed and desired by lots and lots of people by all means, but one not centrally vital whatsoever to enjoying life to the fullest) which makes your contention that the 721 is total garbage completely irrevelent. Amazing that how works eh?


Wow... this is an amazing paragraph. How impossible to satisfy your criteria!

So, in the spirit of agreeableness, please, do tell what you would consider "plausable."

I believe that everyone (including Randy) who has spoken on this forum (if someone disagrees with this statement, and in fact, sees no value in name based recording, by all means speak up), with one exception (that excpetion being you) agree that name based recording on the 721 is a "good thing."

I honestly have no clue how to explain name based recording to you any better. You are a slave to your TV... you feel the need to sit down every night and peruse the guide. I am not a slave to my TV, I have a life outside my computer and TV... thus I do not watch TV every night. I certainly have absolutely no desire to peruse the guide every night.

I find it hilarious that you equate a natural human methodology to a "lazy mans automated luxury item." It really laugable that you can say that with a straight face. Humans naturally thing in symbols, and a name is (generally) a unique lable for a symbol, thus it's a symbol in and of itself in a sense.

Instead, you wish to use an unnatural method of recording, and using a "natural" method is "lazy." How laughable is that? Regardless of the physical nature of it... from a purely usable standpoint, I fail to see how you can NOT understand why it's preferable to ask your machine to "Record program XXX on channel XXX" and have it record the program. Instead, you'd rather tell your machine "Record at XXX time, who cares what's on! I might like it, I might not!" You're a couple cans short of a six pack, I'd say.



> Funny how when all else fails and logic is quickly fleeting, everyone else with vocal opposing viewpoints in discussions are clueless, hilarious, ill-informed and full of complete BS.


That's funny, indeed. The two people disagreeing with me... you and Randy, have _*still*_ failed to bring any facts to the table, except for Randy's number. I know I sound like a broken record on this, but the request for facts to back up your position is ignored with every single post. Whereas, you ask for facts, I give you facts, simple as that. I don't make assertations I can not back up with facts.


----------



## Inaba

> If you found so many "talking out of my ass BS quotes" by myself, I wish you'd at least do me the honor of posting them here citing actual examples for one instead of making veiled references you have no intention of backing up unless called out for.


Ok, this is where I will address the "citing examples" bit...

I did not think I need to quote (or link) to every example that you wish... I thought you were old and smart enough to do that for yourself. But since you are asking for examples, I will provide them for you _*this one time*_, after this, you are on your own, and you need to go do the research yourself, if you can't even remember what you posted.

These are your quotes Unthinkable:



> The only time I run into shows changing schedules is when Tech TV sometimes inserts a 30 minute infomercial for Dell or Microsoft for example which bumps a show off its normal schedule, BUT they repeat their shows all day long so you can just record it at a later time slot. Same goes for ESPN2 late night when their guide data is wrong and they air NBA2Night when NHL2Night is supposed to be shown for example, but again these shows are shown all night long so you just record an hour long block or so on the channels that you know are prone to shifting their lineup from time to time and its not even an issue. Little bit of common sense and a bit of poking around every know and then and its a total non issue.


So, because you only watch ESPN2 and Tech TV, it's a "total non issue."

Heh, sorry... but a lot of people watch other channels. Local stations routinely move shows around bit a bit here and there (at least my locals do) Sci-Fi channel moves shows around on a REGULAR basis, almost weekly.

That's not even to mention the fact that you can (or should) be able to setup your PVR to record a movie that you've been wanting to see when it happens to show itself... But by your twisted logic, I should sit and peruse the guide on every movie channel every day, in the hopes that I might catch a movie that is played once a year. Nice train of logic. Utter BS is what it is.

Just because YOU don't use it in that manner, doesn't mean other people don't. You could turn that around on me, sure... but seeing as you're the only one who's arguing against Name Based Recording, I'd say your a majority of one. Pretty lonely over there in that corner, I suspect.



> Every night around 6pm or so, I'll scroll ahead through the local channels along with the rest of my favorites to see if anything looks good to record for later viewing. The 721 shows 7 channels worth of guide data at once with the pip window enabled that you can cruise forward through in no time at all. Painless, simple, incredibly easy to do and something I'd do anyways. Bad assumption on your part on me being a slave to my TV


More BS! You aren't a slave to your TV... yet you sit down _*every night*_ and look for your favorite shows and scroll through the guide. Hello? Can you not really see the contradiction here? BS is getting thick... but wait, there's more!



> You must have missed the part where I mentioned you can read most newspapers and tv listings online for free anytime you want to for the most part. Again another wrong assumption on your part. I read all my favorite papers online for free myself.


To justify your shaking position, I should waste even MORE of my time looking through online guides, instead of having the machine do it for me... ahh yes, there's some good logic! Looks like I'll need some hip waders soon.



> I said name based recording is overrated and something that can easily be done manually in no time at all on the Dish PVR's. It's not the ace in the hole trump card many DirecTV advocates love to proclaim it is imo. At least for courtesy sake, quote me correctly if you are going to bother to reply to my posts here. I don't spend minutes in the program guide every day. I have timers set to record all my favorite programs whenever they air so I can watch them whenever I want to. I'll zoom through the guide whenever the urge strikes to see if anything else looks good.


Oh no! A contradiction! So... do you sit down every night and scroll through the guide, or do you not spend time doing so? Do you only do it when the mood strikes you... or do you do it every night 'around 6pm?' Which is it?! The world may never know...

I love the part where you back handedly try to label me as a DirecTV advocate... when I am anything but. Nice way to try and deflect the cascade of contradictions you've piled upon yourself. It's kind of akin to getting your hand caught in the cookie jar and then yelling "Hey! What's that!!!" and running away.



> The search feature built into all the Dish PVR's makes name based recording on Tivo or Ultimate TV irrelevant/a moot point for people with Dish Network. You don't need training wheels and training bras your entire life.


This isn't really BS on your part, but I thought it was funny. Lets take what you wrote and replace a few nouns and verbs with different ones.

"The horse pulling all the stagecoaches makes automobiles irrelevant/a moot point for people with a horse. You don't need steam or gasoline your entire life."

I bet you'd argue against the printing press, too, if you could... because, heck, pen and paper are just as good! While not technically BS, it shows a total lack of sophistication to arguing against progress.



> I don't have to have name based recordings to understand and appreciate what it does.


I don't think you'll find anyone who agrees with you. Total BS. You don't have to be experienced with something to speak authoritively on it? Hello? Umm... utter BS, anyone with a highschool education knows what fallacy this is.

Should I keep going? The BS is already a foot deep here. If I didn't know any better, after gathering up all your contradictions, I'd say you're lying. Far be it from me to call you a liar, but can you explain the contradictions you've spouted since you've been on your crusade to prevent anyone from speaking ill of your beloved 721? I can't... looks to me just like you are being arguementative, and you've occasionally forgotten when you've lied about in the past. It's tough to weave such a tangled web and keep it all straight weeks down the road, isn't it?


----------



## Inaba

_**SNORT**_ BWHAHAHA ... I found this gem from you a couple minutes ago, I'd love to hear you explain this away:



> Quoted from Unthinkable in this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?postid=60311#post60311
> 
> Tech Live timer went off at its normal time (9:30am) and caught the entire 30 minute show as it normally does with no issues. This now makes two days in a row where the 501 has *automatically corrected an automatic M-F timer to a shows new time slot which is huge* as long as the guide data is accurate of course. I wonder if this software code only looks ahead or backward by a few hours in checking program names with time slots or if it goes out a full 24 hours. Obviously this isn't going to catch things like the President of the U.S. addressing the nation on all the locals for 30 minutes when the guide data suggests its Fear Factor for an entire hour, but this looks to be *a big step in the right direction* with regards to making this pvr much smarter then before


So... the timer adjusted itself in accordance with the NAME OF THE SHOW... and it is, and I quote you, "huge... looks to be a big step in the right direction..."

Yes, sir, you are a liar, without a doubt. You say name based recording is for lazy people... yet you yourself, after claiming it's "pointless", you "don't want or need it", "no big deal," go on to claim it's "Huge" and "a step in the right direction."

Oh, that's just perfect. I want to thank you for showing that the only purpose you intend in responding to me is to start flames. Thank you. I can't wait to hear how you try to weasle out of this one! Bring it on!


----------



## guywall

How many threads are we going to have Inaba v. somebody? Can we just create one thread for this stuff. It is getting really old, really fast...


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## Inaba

I agree, it was old a long time ago... and it's not Inava v. somebody. It's Inaba v. Randy/Unthinkable. 

It seems Randy has taken the clue and shut up, I don't know how many more verbal beatings it will take Unthinkable. In the end, the sad fact of the matter is... if either one of them could bring facts to the table, instead of their illogical suppositions, I'd have shut up a long time ago.


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## Randy_B

No, I was just hoping you would go away and we could get the thread back on topic. If you go back to page one, you are the troll that jammed the discussion off the side of the road. It had NOTHING to do wiith your rantings.

EVERYONE else is ignoring you inaba. Notice how NO ONE addresses your brilliant think pieces????



Inaba said:


> No, you have assumed that I do not believe that people have engaged other PVRs. I've never said any such thing, in fact, I have asked people if they have.


Jeez, do you even read your drivel. Your first post on this thread when you hijacked clearly states:


Inaba said:


> It seems that the only people "satisfied" with the 721 are the ones who've never used a real PVR . . .


I'm sorry folks, I really tried to skip over him . . .


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## Big Bob

Randy_B said:


> I'm sorry folks, I really tried to skip over him . . .


Thats okay. I try to skip over him too. His posts are usually so long though. You have to scroll and scroll......


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## mjschuyler

Neil Derryberry, Please don't close this thread it is of interest to a lot of 721 owners. However I would think most of the rest of the members (myself included) following this thread are tired of the Inaba,Randy_b, and unthinkable squabble. If you could just have them stop with the childish name calling I think the thread would resume it's original intent. 

I hope Inaba will not take this as a attack on him but during one of the Tech Chats "Name Based Recording" and "Upgrading of Hard Drives" were addressed. I don't remember who answered the question but it was something like this: "We do not have plans to add "Name Based Recording" to the the 721" and "We do not want customers to change out hard drives and the operating software was written so it was not possible". They also said that "Name Based Recording" had not been requested by customers BUT if enough customers asked for any feature update they would consider adding that feature. I don't remember "HMO Home Based Recording" ever being discussed during any Chat. 

I would suggest to Inaba that he email E* Tech Support with his concerns about updates. I too want the latest upgrades but complaining to this board is not going to get that done.

E* makes and controls what features are available in their receivers. If you require a PVR that allows "Name Based Recordings", "Recorded Program Organization", "Usable Quick Screen Info", "Graceful Recoverly from Problems", "HMO", etc. you may have to go elsewhere BUT only E* can make a decision to offer updates. I very much doubt they will ever add "HMO" as a $100 upgrade because not enough customers would opt to pay for the upgrade and E* has never charged for any software upgrade except for PVR service on the "Dishplayer".

Murray


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## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> No, you have assumed that I do not believe that people have engaged other PVRs. I've never said any such thing, in fact, I have asked people if they have.
> 
> Generally speaking, a good majority of the posters that have responded have _not_ used other PVR's (other than Dish PVRs)... and when I make that assertation, it is based off of what has already been written.


Uh no. You actually wrongly assumed in other threads several times over that others in the various discussions had never toyed around with name based recordings on Tivo's when anyone can drive to a Best Buy or Circuit City and demo the feature out live in person to see how earth shattering it is. You were telling posters they have no right to even talk about it if they don't personally have it in their own livingrooms for a period of time which is flat out dead wrong. People took issues with that wrongful assertion on your part and rightfully so.



> You don't know of a single poster? Well, go look in the mirror, it's you and Randy. You two appear to be the only two threatened by my disdain for the 721. I suspect it's because you have to justify your cash outlay to yourselves. I've seen it many times in various areas of hardware (and occasionally software) purchases. It's a very clear and identifiable trait among people such as yourself. Heck, I've done it myself in the past, I'm not above reproach in that area. It's very hard to realize when you are engaging in it, and believe me... you and Randy are textbook examples of this.
> 
> No, I'm not psychoanaylizing you, just speaking from almost 20 years of posting experience.
> 
> My 36 posts have not all been about this particular subject. The majority of them have, yes... that's simply because I do not have any other type of Dish PVR, I am comfortable with the programming on Dish, and I have no desire to engage in any sort of discourse with the DTV crowd.


Reality check time. You did psychoanalize me and you were pretty far off from reality as usual. Don't quit your day job. I spent 0$ for my Dish Network PVR 721. I don't have a single reason in the world to justify the purchase of it when I didn't spend a penny on it. If it sucked to the point of me despising it for making my life miserable I'd sell it somewhere in a heartbeat and get on with my life instead of complaining about if nonstop through June and July. I can assure you that no one is threatened by your blind hatred for this "dumb digital vr" receiver. People are just tired of hearing the same broken record over and over again from you ad nauseaum. You reached a point where everyone tuned you right out, because you had nothing new to add or contribute to conservations on here. I could care less when folks post up negative experiences with companies or hardware hoping to serve as a useful warning to others that things didn't work out for them the way they had hoped. You trolled this issue to death though and took it to entire new levels over the course of the past two months.



> I would like you to demonstrate where you see this. The only two people I have been rude to, or shown little respect to are you and Randy. You both come out and attack me, essentially calling me an idiot for wanting more functionality on the 721. You then try to cut down and dismiss my desire for features found on other PVRs.
> 
> I'm sorry, friend, but you (and Randy) attacked _me_ first. I WILL be happy to provide you with links to posts indicating this. In the meantime, I suggest you go back through my 36 posts, and dig up the time stamps for messages where I was rude and disrespectful to anyone prior to them doing the same to me. If you are able to dig that up, I'll agree with you. Barring that, you are, once again, talking smack. Not that that's very suprising.


You need to get one thing straight here and one thing straight pretty quick. People attacked your points in a dignified civil way. Not you personally. Weak reasoning and logic dictates the appropriate responses to said reasonings.



> Wow... this is an amazing paragraph. How impossible to satisfy your criteria!
> 
> So, in the spirit of agreeableness, please, do tell what you would consider "plausable."
> 
> I believe that everyone (including Randy) who has spoken on this forum (if someone disagrees with this statement, and in fact, sees no value in name based recording, by all means speak up), with one exception (that excpetion being you) agree that name based recording on the 721 is a "good thing."
> 
> I honestly have no clue how to explain name based recording to you any better. You are a slave to your TV... you feel the need to sit down every night and peruse the guide. I am not a slave to my TV, I have a life outside my computer and TV... thus I do not watch TV every night. I certainly have absolutely no desire to peruse the guide every night.


My point was and always has been that name based recording is overrated and not the ace in the hole advantage many Tivo lovers claim it to be. I've repeated it to you several times along with several posts pointing out that I watch the majority of my favorite programs time shifted same as you do with recurring timers already setup every day. Don't blame others for your own short-sightedness and lack of attention to detail here. You can't keep original points straight here let alone anything else. Ever hear the joke about the software engineer who wasted hundreds and hundreds of words just trying to code in "Hello?" The guy was really great with numbers in his head, but he couldn't hold a meaningful conversation with a brick wall to save his life in the real world.



> I find it hilarious that you equate a natural human methodology to a "lazy mans automated luxury item." It really laugable that you can say that with a straight face. Humans naturally thing in symbols, and a name is (generally) a unique lable for a symbol, thus it's a symbol in and of itself in a sense.
> 
> Instead, you wish to use an unnatural method of recording, and using a "natural" method is "lazy." How laughable is that? Regardless of the physical nature of it... from a purely usable standpoint, I fail to see how you can NOT understand why it's preferable to ask your machine to "Record program XXX on channel XXX" and have it record the program. Instead, you'd rather tell your machine "Record at XXX time, who cares what's on! I might like it, I might not!" You're a couple cans short of a six pack, I'd say.


If setting up recurring timers to grab 95 percent of my regular program viewing in advance is "unnatural" and a real throwback to the stoneage then so be it. Awfully strange definition of unnatural on your part there though. What a shame we aren't all software engineers with minds as brilliant as yours so we could all be full six packs with your incredibly astute knowledge and impressive command of the english language. Amazing how you so often ignore the natural tendencies to regurgitate the always overdone cliches. Not sure how I'll ever live or sleep at night at the mere thought of that. Oh the sheer madness.


----------



## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> So, because you only watch ESPN2 and Tech TV, it's a "total non issue."
> 
> Heh, sorry... but a lot of people watch other channels. Local stations routinely move shows around bit a bit here and there (at least my locals do) Sci-Fi channel moves shows around on a REGULAR basis, almost weekly.
> 
> That's not even to mention the fact that you can (or should) be able to setup your PVR to record a movie that you've been wanting to see when it happens to show itself... But by your twisted logic, I should sit and peruse the guide on every movie channel every day, in the hopes that I might catch a movie that is played once a year. Nice train of logic. Utter BS is what it is.
> 
> Just because YOU don't use it in that manner, doesn't mean other people don't. You could turn that around on me, sure... but seeing as you're the only one who's arguing against Name Based Recording, I'd say your a majority of one. Pretty lonely over there in that corner, I suspect.


Amazing that a minute or two once a day perusing a program guide is such a total nuisance to you and total BS when others search program guides routinely whenever the urge strikes. Even more amazing is that you can search a guide, listen to music, surf the web, talk on the phone, get yourself a cold drink, and multi-task like the rest of the world does without it ever being an issue at all. Imagine that for a moment if you would. I watch a good bit of tv on the locals as well and my shows rarely ever change times.



> More BS! You aren't a slave to your TV... yet you sit down _*every night*_ and look for your favorite shows and scroll through the guide. Hello? Can you not really see the contradiction here? BS is getting thick... but wait, there's more!
> 
> To justify your shaking position, I should waste even MORE of my time looking through online guides, instead of having the machine do it for me... ahh yes, there's some good logic! Looks like I'll need some hip waders soon.


This is mindless semantics here. BS to you. Wrongful interpretation by yourself again as per usual. I'm a slave to my tv for checking to see whats on that evening for one or two minutes? I don't think so. If thats the case then I'm a slave to everything I do for one minute to two minutes once a day. What is your point???? Your time is too precious to waste a single minute of your life checking whats on for the evening? You make the most of every waking minute you have on a 24-7 basis and never once just relax for a bit?



> Oh no! A contradiction! So... do you sit down every night and scroll through the guide, or do you not spend time doing so? Do you only do it when the mood strikes you... or do you do it every night 'around 6pm?' Which is it?! The world may never know...
> 
> I love the part where you back handedly try to label me as a DirecTV advocate... when I am anything but. Nice way to try and deflect the cascade of contradictions you've piled upon yourself. It's kind of akin to getting your hand caught in the cookie jar and then yelling "Hey! What's that!!!" and running away.


Generally speaking I'll check once a day or so to see whats on over the course of the next six hours to see if anything looks good that I don't already have timers set for. Usually its not much that looks appealing most especially, because its summer time. Some days I never check the guide like Wednesday's when I know full well nothing good is on. No sweat off my back and certainly not in the same category as the much ballyhooed cigarette taking 3 minutes of life away down the road for regular smokers. I didn't label you as a DirecTv advocate - I put you in the same group as them saying name based recordings are the end all be all final word in ultimate pvrs. Again, don't blame others for yourself reading the wrong things into written words.



> I don't think you'll find anyone who agrees with you. Total BS. You don't have to be experienced with something to speak authoritively on it? Hello? Umm... utter BS, anyone with a highschool education knows what fallacy this is.
> 
> Should I keep going? The BS is already a foot deep here. If I didn't know any better, after gathering up all your contradictions, I'd say you're lying. Far be it from me to call you a liar, but can you explain the contradictions you've spouted since you've been on your crusade to prevent anyone from speaking ill of your beloved 721? I can't... looks to me just like you are being arguementative, and you've occasionally forgotten when you've lied about in the past. It's tough to weave such a tangled web and keep it all straight weeks down the road, isn't it?


I could care less if people want to bash the 721 on here. I have no stock in Dish Network and I don't work for them in any capacity whatsoever. I've never been the Dish Network cheerleader waving the pom poms singing pro Dish Network songs 24-7 that you've painted myself and others as whenever it suits your argument though. People can engage in all the Directv vs. Dish Network arguments they want to freely for all I care. Used to work indirectly for DirecTV at one point in time and I never once took issue with folks ripping DTV and their policies/hardware/contracts etc... Same thing goes with Dish. You are free to speak your mind here along with everyone else, but keep in mind your voice loses all semblance of authority when you recite the same old bitter feelings over and over again without ever doing a single thing to resolve things yourself.


----------



## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> _**SNORT**_ BWHAHAHA ... I found this gem from you a couple minutes ago, I'd love to hear you explain this away:
> 
> So... the timer adjusted itself in accordance with the NAME OF THE SHOW... and it is, and I quote you, "huge... looks to be a big step in the right direction..."
> 
> Yes, sir, you are a liar, without a doubt. You say name based recording is for lazy people... yet you yourself, after claiming it's "pointless", you "don't want or need it", "no big deal," go on to claim it's "Huge" and "a step in the right direction."
> 
> Oh, that's just perfect. I want to thank you for showing that the only purpose you intend in responding to me is to start flames. Thank you. I can't wait to hear how you try to weasle out of this one! Bring it on!


What part of my response beforehand did you completely fall asleep at the wheel and miss out on in your endless pursuit here:

Back when I had two 501's I once thought name-based recordings would be a welcomed addition, but at this point its no longer desirable at all when it takes no time out of my day to blaze through a couple hours of programming in the program guide on the various channels I really watch the most of to see if anything interesting is on. I drive a manual transmission as well for better mileage and better all around vehicle control. Don't need it to be automated when the slightest of multi-tasking skills are thrown into the equation. People talk on cell phones, drive cars, hunt around for cds to play in the front seat, drink drinks, eat meals etc... every day of our lives.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks to me like you glossed over all of it before firing off another mindless response. Imagine that. Selective reading and hammerheaded recall again on your part instantly becomes BS/lying/incompetence/ignorance. Do they air the thick headed A and W rootbeer commercials in your neck of the woods where the newlywed clown wants to replay and review his bachelor party videotape in front of his new wife over and over again? That one is all you man.


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## Jacob S

Man, what flaming there is, I wish the SuperDish, HD, locals, and new receivers would come out soon so that there is something new to talk about.


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## Bob Haller

I agree! I would like name based recodings too but this is.....................................


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## Inaba

> You need to get one thing straight here and one thing straight pretty quick. People attacked your points in a dignified civil way. Not you personally. Weak reasoning and logic dictates the appropriate responses to said reasonings.


I'm not even going to bother to respond to you anymore, Unthinkable. You are totally clueless, just like Randy and unwilling or unable, through some apparent mental defenciency to understand simple English.

You pass over any salient point that you can not respond do, and respond with mindless drivel. I wonder if you can even read half of what I write.

Regardless, however... You are not an authority here... in fact, through your repeated demonstrations of your total lack of knowledge in even basic subjects involving electronics, I'd say you aren't much of an authority on anything, except contradictions.

You need to get one thing straight, and one thing only. If you are going to attack me, which you have done repeatedly, along with Randy, you better be prepared to defend your position. You have utterly and completely failed to do so.

Here is my quote:



> I would like you to demonstrate where you see this. The only two people I have been rude to, or shown little respect to are you and Randy. You both come out and attack me, essentially calling me an idiot for wanting more functionality on the 721. You then try to cut down and dismiss my desire for features found on other PVRs.


You utterly and completely failed to demonstrate where I attacked anyone, except you and Randy, AFTER you had attacked me. Until you can point out this _simple_ and _easy_ position you've taken up, you are nothing but a troll. You make assertations you can not back up, and then hope people don't notice.

Sorry, pal, but you are as big a dolt as Randy is. Neither of you can back up a word you say with any evidence. I have provided each of you with the evidence to back up my claims, and you can not even return the favor.

*shrug* You two can do what ya want, but until you can provide a shred of credible evidence to back up even one thing that you say, you're effectively meaningless.

Like I told Randy, you don't like what I write, then don't respond to it. You only repeatedly make yourself look like a complete idiot, and if you like to do that, fine... more power to you. But I'm pretty tired of making you look like bufoons, its' simply too easy to do. If you have some sort of intellectual challenge to offer in a debate, I'd be all for more of it... but at this point, since you can't address even a single point with any evidence, I guess we are done here. You got that straight, sport? Keep your yap shut when it involves me, and if you can't keep your little boney fingers off the keyboard, be prepared to backup your claims. If you can't, you'll get more of the same verbal beating you've already received.

Thanks, and please drive through!


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## UpOnTheMountain

:backtotop 

This thread has gone just a bit off topic. Perhaps it's time to close it ?


If and when new information becomes available about the pending software upgrades, perhaps we can start a new "rumor thread then!  

anyways ... What do you say moderators ?


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## Jacob S

Thats what I was thinking that it was a bit off topic because everytime I go to check it, its not about what I would think it is about.


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## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> You pass over any salient point that you can not respond do, and respond with mindless drivel. I wonder if you can even read half of what I write.
> 
> Regardless, however... You are not an authority here... in fact, through your repeated demonstrations of your total lack of knowledge in even basic subjects involving electronics, I'd say you aren't much of an authority on anything, except contradictions.
> 
> You need to get one thing straight, and one thing only. If you are going to attack me, which you have done repeatedly, along with Randy, you better be prepared to defend your position. You have utterly and completely failed to do so.
> 
> Here is my quote:
> 
> You utterly and completely failed to demonstrate where I attacked anyone, except you and Randy, AFTER you had attacked me. Until you can point out this _simple_ and _easy_ position you've taken up, you are nothing but a troll. You make assertations you can not back up, and then hope people don't notice.
> 
> Like I told Randy, you don't like what I write, then don't respond to it. You only repeatedly make yourself look like a complete idiot, and if you like to do that, fine... more power to you. But I'm pretty tired of making you look like bufoons, its' simply too easy to do. If you have some sort of intellectual challenge to offer in a debate, I'd be all for more of it... but at this point, since you can't address even a single point with any evidence, I guess we are done here. You got that straight, sport? Keep your yap shut when it involves me, and if you can't keep your little boney fingers off the keyboard, be prepared to backup your claims. If you can't, you'll get more of the same verbal beating you've already received.
> 
> Thanks, and please drive through!


LOL! Are you for real? I mean seriously. I respond line for line, paragraph for paragraph to virtually every inane point you make wasting way more time then you are worth in 3 separate posts above (which you never directly responded to btw - Pot. Kettle. Black.) and you are throwing another patented tantrum of yours, because I didn't go back and re-post all your quotes where you lash out at others including the admins on here?

Lets make this as simple as possible in recapping your hospitality to date which is to quote you now "never without being provoked".

1) Your very fist thread titled: Sad Panda  Dishplayer 721: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=16186

has posters all over wondering why you spent 500 plus dollars on a top of the line receiver you never fully researched properly in advance along with posters like Big Bob and Tampa8 correctly cautioning others not to feed the troll. They had it exactly right with that early assessment judging by all your followup posts since then. Many of which now appear to be deleted - imagine that. Anyways, sometimes those troll lables end up being premature or entirely incorrect in the end, but in this instance they were absolutely bang on.

2) TiredofComplainers registers as a guest and unknowingly captures the very spirit of your essence with a single post back on 6/26 in the following thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=15800&page=2&pp=30

"It never ceases to amaze me how many people use this board to complain endlessly. I have had a 721 since 10/02 and have been very happy with it. It is more stable now than it was then and they have added new features (slow motion, etc) to the receiver which was not on the original spec sheet for the receiver. They are giving us these features 'for free'...patience - patience. The fact that it is over-the-air upgradeable is a bonus and shouldn't be taken for granted.

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely looking forward to future software revisions that add more capability, and improve stability, but I don't lose sleep over it. What I have now works VERY well. I have recommended Dish PVRs to family members and friends and at least one has bought a 508 and has been very happy with it...

Obviously you have the right to complain. You also have the right to buy another product. I am just taking advantage here of my right to voice a counter opinion to the complainers. I am of the opinion that there are many board lurkers like myself who feel the same way, we just tend not to be vocal about it."

Incredibly, he pegs every moral fiber of your being without even realizing it at the time in 4 short paragraphs. You evolve into everything he is sick to death of seeing on here and folks start taking issue with all the tiresome redundancies on your part..


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## Unthinkable

3) July 10th Inaba shows his true colors with some real doozies in dbronstein's thread titled "One reason Dish PVR's are better then Tivo.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=16452

Lets recap here. I post my opinion to Karl F that name-based recording is a bit overrated. Not a word of it ever said to you mind you now, and you in turn respond with the beginning of a whole slew of wrong assumptions and personal attacks. I used to work with and sell Tivo's and Ultimate Tv's every day in a previous satellite provider job, but don't let that get in the way of your unfounded arguments below:

"You may not find it useful (you've probably never used it, thus you have no idea what you are missing.) - but the fact that nearly everyone who's used a name based recording type PVR mentions that the Dish PVRs suck because they lack this feature bellies that it's YOU who are in the minority, not the people wanting this feature.... So it may not be a big deal to you, but those of us who've used name based recording before will go kicking and screaming back to the stone age of VCR's and Dish's PVR. Hi! Welcome to the 90's."

Step back and look at yourself here in a neutral light here if you would. You're well off the path of goodwill that most posters tend to gravitate towards and appear to be completely paralyzed by a resounding all-encompassing inferiority complex. Endless confrontations with insecurity would logically support your repeated lashing outs, but that is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things. Back to your first response to me though. We have an all caps YOU and a parting shot about me living in another generation among other unmentionables before I've ever typed a single word to you on here. That doesn't jive at all with your continued assertions that your personal attacks were always provoked in advance does it? Amazingly enough, you attempt to spin this nonsense like a Bullworth politician here, but no one following our threads over time is buying a single word of it whether you want to accept it as fact or not.

Other good will highlights posted by yourself to a whole group of different posters here:

"I really don't understand where you can even say some of the things you've said with a straight face... How many minutes per day do you spend perusing the guide? I'll bet it's more than "next to no time at all."

"The only ones that seem thick here are the people arguing against increasing the functionality of the Dish PVRs, such as yourself."

"Again, I've used the different PVRs, unliike (apparently) you and the others who are crying about adding additinoal functionality - I _know_ what I'm talking about, whereas you do not. If you have used the other PVRs extensively, and you still cling to your outmoded beliefs, great! More power to you... but like I've said several times in this thread, everyone who's used other PVRs features and have found them lacking in the 721 agree with me. No one who's used the features in question agrees with you. So where does that leave us?

"You go about living in your 20th century world, I prefer to move along with the rest of life into the 21st century. If that makes me obtuse, so be it... but hey, at least I won't have to paw through the EPG every day to find shows I want."

"It's pointless to argue with Dish zealots (Or any hardware/software zealot... Mac/Apple, DTV, etc...). They can't see the forest for the trees, and they go so far as to tell you that you're obtuse for wanting additional features added to a product... It's all about passion, and there's no room for logic or common sense when arguing with people like that."

"It always facinates me how people think they can talk about a product with authority that they've never used... the Dish zealots who obviously have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, attemping to speak with authority on features of other PVRs, how useful a feature is, what's needed and what isn't, when they've never even sat down and used one is utterly ridiculous, and gives them exactly zero credibility on anything they say. But to a zealot, it makes no difference... it's all about justifying your choice of hardware (or software), no matter how ridiculous the position. If it makes 'em feel better about spending obscene amounts of money on an albatross, fine... they can have thier piece of mind. Fortunately, I don't feel the need to justify my purchases in that manner... and if I make a bad choice (or it's my only choice) - then so be it. I'll do better next time (I hope!)"

"I assume this poll was put up in response to the other thread and my ongoing debate. The added option I'm speaking of is the entire point of what started the debate in the other thread. The people that are happy with the 721 right now have (I suspect) not used other PVRs extensively."

"I am officially done with you. Your sole purpose in life is to start flame wars, and argue with me. I will not be responding to your posts any longer. You've demonstrated in the other thread that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and you have no ability to understand what a "fact" is.

Thank you for your time, and effort, but please drive through and let intelligent people come and go as they please, no one needs your fanaticism."

End of conversation."

-Blatant over-generalizing. Check.
-Repeated incorrect assumptions. Check.
-Attitude, pompous arrogance, and condescention. Check.
-Endless rants played like a broken record. Check.
-False claims, false accusations, rampant misnomers and sophistry. Check.

Looks like you've gone back and deleted a bunch of posts which echoed your same rants over and over again along with your swipes at the admins in the efforts to come off a whole lot nicer in retrospect, but they were here for all to see and take note of at one point in time. Anything else I failed to directly respond to now? Your turn to respond to all my points both above and here now if we are going to play the "you didn't answer my one paragraph game". Try doing it without all the insults this time. Take it for what its worth; you end up not looking like a complete jackass when you respond to others without all the unnecessary personal insults, backhanded swipes, false proclamations of superiority/owning others in debates/I'm smarter then you's etc...

Apologies in advance to all the posters who have called for a quick end to this thread, but with all due respect here, when a persons integrity gets questioned, I'm not going to sit idly by and watch a character assassination attempt go on without the proper response. I'm done here. Back to focusing on other more relevant subjects.


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## RLMesq

Geez, this is far more amusing than those expensive WWF wrestling pay-per-view shows.

Pass the popcorn...


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## johnsbin

Speaking of new features, is there a way add a feature to this discussion board that will hide certain posters names when you want to just look for helpful information?


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## Chris Blount

johnsbin said:


> Speaking of new features, is there a way add a feature to this discussion board that will hide certain posters names when you want to just look for helpful information?


Yes! Click on the "UserCP" icon towards the top of the page and then click "Buddy/Ignore List". By placing someone on your ignore list, their posts will not be displayed.


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## Inaba

Finally! It seems you grew a pair and were able to respond to me with at least *something.* It's too bad you're still outright *lying* when it comes time for you to make your point.



Unthinkable said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=16452
> 
> Lets recap here. I post my opinion to Karl F that name-based recording is a bit overrated. Not a word of it ever said to you mind you now, and you in turn respond with the beginning of a whole slew of wrong assumptions and personal attacks.


I fail to see how my response to you was an attack. Unless you consider the "Hi! Welcome to the 90's" an attack, if so, then guilty as charged and I apologize. That was not meant to be an attack at all.

The "YOU," was put there for emphasis, and I won't apologize for that. It was not an attack, and no reasonable person would classify it as such.

I didn't quote all those "quotes" from me. But once again, your constant spinning of the topics to make yourself look better is laughable. You didn't put those with who and what I was responding to... and if you had, they'd look exactly like they were intended. Responses to people. The more vitrolic ones were responses to either you or Randy_B after one of the two of you had spouted off your nonesense and/or jihad against my talking down of the 721.

*shrug* once again, you need to provide credible proof I've attacked someone prior to them attacking me. With the exception of the "Hi welcome to the 90's," which I still don't feel was an attack, but I can understand why you might take it as such... you've provided nothing so far.



> Looks like you've gone back and deleted a bunch of posts which echoed your same rants over and over again along with your swipes at the admins in the efforts to come off a whole lot nicer in retrospect, but they were here for all to see and take note of at one point in time. Anything else I failed to directly respond to now?


I have deleted _NOTHING_. Not a single thing. I am not you. Do not project your feelings of inadequancy upon me. You are the only liar in this thread (as far as I know).

You've lied before, with the "it's no big deal" or is it "Huge?" You've lied or misdirected about things you've said previously, in an obvious effort to cover up your previous statements. And now, you're blatantly lying again. It's pretty pathetic when you have to resort to lying about your debate opponent to try to make him look bad. Perhaps you are a politician?

Please, by all means have a moderator/admin check the backups for any posts by me that might have been deleted. In fact, we wouldn't even have to go that far. If I supposedly deleted a lot of posts, there'd be responses to those posts with no apparent post from me that's being responded to. Surely at least 1 person would have responded to me, and then my post disappears and that persons response is left hanging.

Find me just ONE of those, and I'll concede your point. Until then, you, sir, are a bald faced liar.

Since you've got a history of lying, and it appears that you have little clue as to what you're talking about... I'd wager you're also lying about selling anything but Dish PVR's. You may or may not have sold those, I don't know...



> Your turn to respond to all my points both above and here now if we are going to play the "you didn't answer my one paragraph game". Try doing it without all the insults this time. Take it for what its worth; you end up not looking like a complete jackass when you respond to others without all the unnecessary personal insults, backhanded swipes, false proclamations of superiority/owning others in debates/I'm smarter then you's etc...


Did I miss anything in my response to you? If I did, I'll be sure to fix that right up.


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## BobMurdoch

johnsbin said:


> Speaking of new features, is there a way add a feature to this discussion board that will hide certain posters names when you want to just look for helpful information?


At the top of each page is 6 buttons, the first of which says "user cp"

Click on that and click on the tab for buddy/ignore list.

Add the offending/irritating parties/trolls to your ignore list and enjoy stress free surfing. Enjoy!


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## Randy_B

Chris, you guys are magicians. I gotta look around the control panel more often. Just one more DBSTalk feature you have to love. Great!


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## Jacob S

When you do click on the ignore a user feature, will it also ignore the posts that they have made along with their pm's? How does it work exactly? Also is there a way to ignore certain users posts in a certain thread only?

Also is there a way to view those that have ignored you?


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## BobMurdoch

Jacob S said:


> When you do click on the ignore a user feature, will it also ignore the posts that they have made along with their pm's? How does it work exactly? Also is there a way to ignore certain users posts in a certain thread only?
> 
> Also is there a way to view those that have ignored you?


Yes, don't know, no, no.


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## gary s

I just noticed that on the PVR list of recorded events on the 721 you can sort by date (which I believe is the normal setting) or sort by name. If you sort by name, isn't this a form of "folders". With sort by name it appears to list the shows in alphabetical order with shows of the same name being listed by date. One thing that's not so good about it is that it lists all shows that start with "The", like "The Dead Zone", under T. It seems this could be useful for those that record a lot of shows of the same programs and don't watch them for a while.


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## falsie

C'mon Inaba; C'mon Unthinkable---Let's call a truce. Even the Israelis and Palestinians are making some progress. All of us are really interested in DishPVRs, or we wouldn't be here. Without either of you flaming the other or even "making nice," can we simply get back to the subject? Please.


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## Jacob S

gary s, I do think it is a folder in a sense, only instead of having it as a folder, it is as a selection. I use this feature all of the time as it is one very handy feature, a must have.


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## Randy_B

And it certainly eases the program hunt when you get past 60 hrs of shows on the HD. I wonder if there is a way to search within the PVR events? That coud be kinda handy.


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## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> Finally! It seems you grew a pair and were able to respond to me with at least *something.* It's too bad you're still outright *lying* when it comes time for you to make your point.
> 
> I fail to see how my response to you was an attack. Unless you consider the "Hi! Welcome to the 90's" an attack, if so, then guilty as charged and I apologize. That was not meant to be an attack at all.
> 
> The "YOU," was put there for emphasis, and I won't apologize for that. It was not an attack, and no reasonable person would classify it as such.
> 
> I didn't quote all those "quotes" from me. But once again, your constant spinning of the topics to make yourself look better is laughable. You didn't put those with who and what I was responding to... and if you had, they'd look exactly like they were intended. Responses to people. The more vitrolic ones were responses to either you or Randy_B after one of the two of you had spouted off your nonesense and/or jihad against my talking down of the 721.
> 
> *shrug* once again, you need to provide credible proof I've attacked someone prior to them attacking me. With the exception of the "Hi welcome to the 90's," which I still don't feel was an attack, but I can understand why you might take it as such... you've provided nothing so far.


Allow me to break it down in simpler terms for you to understand a bit better then. Your initial responses to myself were more inline with establishing an opening repoire with rampant sarcasm coupled with shouting in all caps and healthy insertions of condescension and holier-then-thou attitude when I posted a rather simple opinion to someone else regarding how essential a certain Tivo feature is. You replied to others on here in the same exact undiplomatic manner to the point where you started typecasting and stereotyping other knowledgable posters as "Dish Zealots" who have nothing better to do with their lives then to praise Dish Network 24-7 and always justify their purchases no matter how bad they wind up being in the end.



> I have deleted _NOTHING_. Not a single thing. I am not you. Do not project your feelings of inadequancy upon me. You are the only liar in this thread (as far as I know).
> 
> You've lied before, with the "it's no big deal" or is it "Huge?" You've lied or misdirected about things you've said previously, in an obvious effort to cover up your previous statements. And now, you're blatantly lying again. It's pretty pathetic when you have to resort to lying about your debate opponent to try to make him look bad. Perhaps you are a politician?
> 
> Please, by all means have a moderator/admin check the backups for any posts by me that might have been deleted. In fact, we wouldn't even have to go that far. If I supposedly deleted a lot of posts, there'd be responses to those posts with no apparent post from me that's being responded to. Surely at least 1 person would have responded to me, and then my post disappears and that persons response is left hanging.
> 
> Find me just ONE of those, and I'll concede your point. Until then, you, sir, are a bald faced liar.
> 
> Since you've got a history of lying, and it appears that you have little clue as to what you're talking about... I'd wager you're also lying about selling anything but Dish PVR's. You may or may not have sold those, I don't know...
> 
> Did I miss anything in my response to you? If I did, I'll be sure to fix that right up.


I seem to recall a whole lot more of the same ol' same ol' 721 rants from you that didn't come up in the searches I ran the other night and I missed your digs at Scott G. and a few others in retrospect, but it was late at night and could be the search feature not retrieving all the results as its supposed to. I know on a separate forum I frequent everyday which uses the same exact software as this one, their search feature also has issues not retrieving all the desired results from time to time so who knows. In 5,500 posts over there, I can't recall anyone ever calling me a liar before over an opinion of mine on the importance of name-based recordings changing over the course of many months and the transition from 501 to 721 with a much quicker and user serviceable program guide as you've done here though.

Just like with DSL or a cable internet connection, folks are freed to spend a whole lot less time online as opposed to beforehand when they can do everything they used to do with dialup in a fraction of the time as before. The guide in my 721 is quite fast and allows me to see everything on all my HBO's over the next six hours in just seconds and a few right arrow button presses. Same with all the other channels I regularly record. It really isn't such a big deal to me anymore as my regular shows rarely ever switch time slots and when they do I can oftentimes catch them aired later. Have you ever changed an opinion about a movie, book, event, person etc... you once hated or loved after the fact? If so, then you are as guilty as I am about being a bold faced "liar". Hell, I have female friends who change their opinions on matters far more pressing then stuff like this several times a day over on the same subjects. What would you call them out of curiousity and by your own logic here, what would you call your closest family members and loved ones changing and evolving differing opinons over time? BTW, how much do I win and get to collect on for your wager about me selling Dish PVR's? I worked for Dish Network's competition and have never once sold anything Dish related. Are you starting to spot any alarming trends with your general assumptions yet Inaba? I know I sure as hell am.


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## Bob Haller

Why not take this dispute private or better yet just meet and duke it out?


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## Scott Greczkowski

Can we get this on PPV? I wanna tape it on my 721 so I can enjoy it again and again and again.


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## RLMesq

Bob Haller said:


> Why not take this dispute private or better yet just meet and duke it out?


I have to agree. I mean, put this in perspective:

THE PVR721 IS A DEVICE TO RECORD TV SHOWS, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

Time to hang up the Star Trek uniform and come back to reality.


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## Unthinkable

falsie said:


> C'mon Inaba; C'mon Unthinkable---Let's call a truce. Even the Israelis and Palestinians are making some progress. All of us are really interested in DishPVRs, or we wouldn't be here. Without either of you flaming the other or even "making nice," can we simply get back to the subject? Please.


Not a problem falsie. Consider it done. I don't take too kindly to folks calling me a liar though and have never been one to be shy about offering up opinions no matter what they may be. I've attempted to help other posters on here quite a bit in my days as a member here fwiw. Generally I'm the guy who never gets involved in the flame wars irregardless of subject matter.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Hey its not the Star Trek uniform thats the problem, it's the damn spock ears!


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## Inaba

Unthinkable said:


> Allow me to break it down in simpler terms for you to understand a bit better then. Your initial responses to myself were more inline with establishing an opening repoire with rampant sarcasm coupled with shouting in all caps and healthy insertions of condescension and holier-then-thou attitude when I posted a rather simple opinion to someone else regarding how essential a certain Tivo feature is. You replied to others on here in the same exact undiplomatic manner to the point where you started typecasting and stereotyping other knowledgable posters as "Dish Zealots" who have nothing better to do with their lives then to praise Dish Network 24-7 and always justify their purchases no matter how bad they wind up being in the end.


Allow me to apologize to you, Unthinkable. I went back and re-read the previous thread and I realize I was overly agressive to you in my initial reply, and for that I apologize.

My _*initial*_ response(s) to you in this thread were based off of the previous thread, and I confused some of your replies with Randy_B's replies. My fur being ruffled a tad from Randy's zealotry spilled over in my reply to you, and for that I do sincerely apologize.



> I seem to recall a whole lot more of the same ol' same ol' 721 rants from you that didn't come up in the searches I ran the other night and I missed your digs at Scott G. and a few others in retrospect, but it was late at night and could be the search feature not retrieving all the results as its supposed to. I know on a separate forum I frequent everyday which uses the same exact software as this one, their search feature also has issues not retrieving all the desired results from time to time so who knows.


I still take umbrage to this. I have not, nor will I ever delete posts/threads to 'cover up' anything I've said. I say what I mean, and I stand behind what I've said. If I make a mistake (as above), I will take my lumps and own up to my statements. Like I said previously, if you think I've deleted anything, I'm sure the admins can look at the backups, or you can track down a reply from someone that has no apparent source from me. Neither of which you will find, because I have deleted nothing.



> In 5,500 posts over there, I can't recall anyone ever calling me a liar before over an opinion of mine on the importance of name-based recordings changing over the course of many months and the transition from 501 to 721 with a much quicker and user serviceable program guide as you've done here though.


Ok, you've changed your mind. Fair enough, however, with no apparent intermediate step between "NBR is useless" and "It's huge" from you, it looks questionable. Couple that with your claim that I've deleted my own posts, which is patently false and ridiculously absurd...



> The guide in my 721 is quite fast and allows me to see everything on all my HBO's over the next six hours in just seconds and a few right arrow button presses. Same with all the other channels I regularly record. It really isn't such a big deal to me anymore as my regular shows rarely ever switch time slots and when they do I can oftentimes catch them aired later.


Great... you don't need it/want it/care for it. That's fine... however, I don't sit down at my TV every day, and even if I did, I have absolutely no desire to scroll through the guide on the five or six different channels I watch somewhat irregularly. The TV shows I watch change time slots as often as Michael Jackson changes noses, so timer based recording is an excersize in frustration. I know I am not the only person in the same boat.

As someone mentioned previously, it really sucks come the fall and the new seasons start popping up in different time slots/weeks/months... and you have to hunt around for the show(s) you like. It makes infinitely more sense to say "Hey you stupid VCR, record Enterprise for me when it comes on." I just simply don't understand how you can dismiss a more natural way to interact with your appliances as "lazy" or "useless."

Regardless of either of our opinions on the matter, the fact is, NBR is a feature that many people want, while admittedly there are a few people who absolutely don't care for it, the vast majority of people who have spoken up and weighed in with an opinion want it. While I'm sure this forum is not statistically representative of the Dish users as a whole, I find it extremely hard to believe that NBR as a feature in every other PVR on the market is frivolous. Because every other PVR has it, I have to think that it's either something the majority of the users of PVR want or it's extremely simple to code and the programmers just throw it in there for grins (the latter is probably true, as well as the former), otherwise there'd be no sense in putting it in at all. So why does every other PVR have it, and the 721 not?

Leaving the NBR horse carcass now... I still stand by my statements of "features" or lack thereof in the 721 listed previously. My UTV never spontaneously rebooted on me, it never recorded junk that I didn't want, etc... the 721 has done all these things to me, and more. That's a problem, no matter which way you slice it. The 721 requires babysitting, and that's pretty much unacceptable now a days.

This isn't the wild west frontier days of DBS anymore, people expect quality out of an established company such as E*, and when they don't get it, they get mad. The 721 has problems, and a lot of those problems could/should have been addressed a long time ago, if not when the units went out the door, through patches/upgrades. From reading other threads on this forum, it seems that E* under pays their employees and/or the developers for the 721 (and other PVRs?) have left/been laid off. The faultyness of the 721 lies squarely on the shoulders of the E* management, and they should be called to task for allowing inferior products into the market. I know of no better way to call them to task than to educate the public on the problems with the products, thus they are hit in the pocketbook, the place where management is measured.

I am and have been active in several other consumer forums. One thing I've noticed is that it's very difficult to obtain fair and impartial product reviews. It's hard to know for sure if a product is being supported because people spent their $ on it... or if it is because the product itself really is deserving of praise. Unbiased and analytical reviews are hard to come by... when they show up they're usually met with fierce resistance. I don't see what the big deal is in expressing dismay or less than full satisfaction for a product. If anything, that's one of the benefits of sharing information with an online forum such as this one.

I'm sure you think I've overstated my opinion(s)... maybe you're right. But I doubt you (or Randy) would have complained if I had been praising the 721, instead of describing it's numerous faults. I guess we'll never know for sure, but like I've said previously... if you don't like what I write, then don't read it. Put me on ignore if that's what you want/need to feel comfortable. I'm going to keep on harping on the 721's faults until they are fixed or _*I*_ feel I've made my point to the appropriate people. I'll probably adjust my harpiness, perhaps tone it down a bit... but I won't eliminate it entirely, that's pretty much the entire point of these forums, among other things.


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## RLMesq

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=204780


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