# Dallas HD LiL's...how's your reception?



## liferules (Aug 14, 2005)

I have been frustrated by my HD Lil's reception. It seems that Fox is particularly bad. I had terrible audio both the last 2 nights of American Idol as well as SYTYCD tonight (both of which, audio is nearly as important as video).

Is it just my receiver, or are others in the DFW area having audio issues, along with frequent reverb, pixelation, and occas green distortion to the screen?


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## bobr (Mar 23, 2002)

Dallas FOX Locals HD is unwatchable. Constant reverb, pixelation, and occas green distortion to the screen, The other channels are not as bad but have same problems.
I can only watch OTA Fox if I wnat t trust my recording to be wachable.
It seems like E* has a way to go with MPEG4.


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## alan s (Dec 6, 2004)

I have been experiencing the same. FOX OTA has been perfect so it's Dish compression or their 622.


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## caam1 (Dec 7, 2004)

I only tried them for a few minutes at a time just to see what they looked like, then I switched back to the OTA channels. I noticed picture "stuttering" when there was movement in the image. There were also assorted audio problems. It looks like the MPEG-4 compression is still a work in progress.


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## alan s (Dec 6, 2004)

Channel 11 is the only one that I experience the "stuttering" during motion. I believe I read that it has something to do with the fact that 11 is the only one sending 1080i and it's then converted to 720p by Dish....you're right...a work in progress


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## liferules (Aug 14, 2005)

I just received this update from the Dish Quality team, who I had emailed a few weeks ago about the problems with HD LiL:

_"Dear XXX,

Thank you for expressing your concerns and interest in DISH Network. Customer input is an important tool in our efforts to continuously improve the quality of the DISH Network service.

We have word from our engineering team that they believe they have identified the problem. They are currently working on a resolution in which may take some time to implement, so we thank you for your patience. If you do not notice any changes after a few weeks could you notify us again?

At DISH Network we appreciate the time customers take to email their audio/video quality concerns. Thank you for your patience, information, and for being a valued customer.

EchoStar Satellite LLC
Quality Assurance Department
[email protected]"
_
So maybe it will get better in the near future...lets hope...


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## ZigSteenine (Apr 18, 2006)

alan s said:


> Channel 11 is the only one that I experience the "stuttering" during motion. I believe I read that it has something to do with the fact that 11 is the only one sending 1080i and it's then converted to 720p by Dish....you're right...a work in progress


WTF??? WHY would dish downgrade the signal??? I don't doubt they are doing it, but sheez!!!!! :nono: :nono2:

How can I tell what format the channels are broadcast in?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

ZigSteenine said:


> How can I tell what format the channels are broadcast in?


Typically everyone is 1080i except for ABC and Fox who run 720p. Dish may engage in some resolution reduction on both of them to make room for everything.

What everyone is describing is what you would expect from too much data flooding the compressor. Oftimes reducing the resolution produces a "better" picture.


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## ZigSteenine (Apr 18, 2006)

Sorry I was off topic a little bit. I am not in Dallas. I was just pissed that they would downgrade a signal.


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## DRJDAN (Apr 28, 2002)

Those in Dallas with the 622, did you have to go to a Dish 1000? Do any of you have a D500 for 110 and 119 and a D500 for 61.5 working with the 622 local and national HD.

That is what I have and would like to stay there as my understanding is that the local HD are on 119 and the national are on 61.5.


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## bobr (Mar 23, 2002)

DRJDAN said:


> Those in Dallas with the 622, did you have to go to a Dish 1000? Do any of you have a D500 for 110 and 119 and a D500 for 61.5 working with the 622 local and national HD.
> 
> That is what I have and would like to stay there as my understanding is that the local HD are on 119 and the national are on 61.5.


HD Locals are on 110. New MPEG4 HD Chanels are on 129 and mirrored on 61.5. Your setup should work fine.


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## DRJDAN (Apr 28, 2002)

bobr,

When you say mirrored on 61.5, does that other than they are on both? 

Will they make me have an install fee or just send me 622 for self install?


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## scooby2 (Nov 29, 2005)

The 1080i channels (CBS/NBC) should be 1440x1080 and the 720p channels (Fox and ABC) 1280x720p. Their mpeg4 encoders don't seem to be able to keep up with 1920x1080 so they are using 1440x1080 (what Voom used for most channels).

If you are having issues with the HD locals, please please please email [email protected] so they know you are unhappy. Even if you plan on staying with OTA, shoot them an email.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

DRJDAN said:


> When you say mirrored on 61.5, does that other than they are on both?


For Dallas customers, everything that appears on 129 also appears on 61.5. The national stuff isn't likely to move, but it could be that at some point in the future, Dallas HD LIL may be moved to 129. Dish doesn't want to get into a bind by setting up customers in each market in different ways or they will be forced to do another install or mirror the HD LIL also.


> Will they make me have an install fee or just send me 622 for self install?


If you're buying the receiver, you can install it yourself. If you're leasing, NO.

They don't give discounts on the $299 drive-off fee.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

scooby2 said:


> The 1080i channels (CBS/NBC) should be 1440x1080 and the 720p channels (Fox and ABC) 1280x720p. Their mpeg4 encoders don't seem to be able to keep up with 1920x1080 so they are using 1440x1080 (what Voom used for most channels).


It is equally likely that they also do some sort of scaling down of 720p content. The bandwidth requirement for 720p is 90% of 1080i.


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

From time to time, I lose Video on NBC and CBS HD Dallas LIL. FOX often has pixelation and the green distortion that makes the pic look like impressionst art. Am in touch with one of the Vip622 troubleshooting team via e-mail. (dishquality guy) My HDMI and Component cables feed directly from 622 into HDTV DLP, not via amp.Use Toslink to amp.

After reviewing my logs for my 622 (my second one) and taking a lot of Dish Point readings, I have the feeling that there is a problem with both the 622 and getting Echostar X bird up to speed. In SYSINFO, I get a lot of notations under Details that I currently have loss of signal and a log of recent signal losses.

My son has identical setup to me, 622 and Sammy DLP - McKinney, new DishProPlus Twin. We have compared HD locals over cell phone and when I have lost Dallas CBS, NBC HD, he still has them. This leans me toward thinking that the problem with the video dropouts is with the 622. Unless being on the possible fringe of the Spotbeam might be part of the problem. I am about 85 miles NE of Plano

When I lose Video for my HD LIL for NBC and CBS, the Dallas LIL SD stations are okay. Reading other posts and forums, losing Network HD LIL video is not unique to Dallas.

Is there a genius on board who could opine as to whether a loss of Video on only 2 of 4 Dallas LIL HD channels could be related to a faulty DishProPlus Twin or to a Separator which feeds Tuner 1 and Tuner 2? If any chance they are the problem, willing to swap for new ones. 

Sometimes I can get CBS and NBC HD video back by doing a Check Switch. Sometimes I have to do a power reboot. 

Dallas major 4 networks LIL for SD are on 110 TP20 Spotbeam 21 E*10 and I get a signal on the new DishProPlus Twin of 102. The Dallas HD LIL are on 110 TP 31 Spotbeam 21 E*10 and I get a signal of only 82! I am near the Okla border in NE TX. When Dallas SD LIL were on the other 110 bird (I think that's were they were), I got a 120 signal on SD locals most of the time.

What kind of signal readings does anybody else get on the 110 E*10 TPs noted for Dallas LIL SD and HD?

I have tried using single coax and separator to T1 and T2 on 622, and two coaxes to Tuners 1 and 2. Tried HDMI and Component when HD video goes out. No difference. Have spent about 20 hours testing, rebooting, etc. Waiting for tech to digest my logs and suggest any more tests. 

I have a separate dish for 129, and even then some channels have very low sigs. I cannot imagine Dish moving Dallas LIL HD over to 129 with its known problems. We have enough problems on 110 E*10.


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## gump0rz (Jan 29, 2006)

I have had the same audio problems on both FOX and NBC... I also had the blank screen happen several times as well. Have not heard from dish but most people on the board say we are waiting on a software update. I have the VIP-211


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

I have just talked with my Ph.D. Elec. Engr. friend, who among other things programs satelites. *He called me via satellite on my cell from a ship in the Greek Islands.*

*My friend says that losing 2 of 4 HD LIL Dallas Networks cannot be a function of the LNB or the Separator. He suggests that the problem is inside the 622, since other people in Dallas Spotbeam do not lose NBC and CBS at the same time I do. 
*
He says that DirecTV uses KU band for SD and KA band for HD. He assumes that Dish does the same. Lower signal on HD Dallas LIL versus SD Dallas LIL probably a function of KA versus KU.

KA is a narrow beam and harder to lock onto correctly.

For now, I will wait for Dish to upgrade the 622 software and/or tweak Echostar 10- or suggest some more tests. If 622 works on all else but Dallas HD NBC and CBS, will wait until football season and Fall network sked and decide what to do about seeking a new receiver.


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

Just talked with my installer, who owns the dealership and also does WildBlue installations and StarBand. He says that Dallas HD LIL on E*10 110 are on KA Band that that SD locals are on KU Band. He said that if I have a signal reading of 82 on 110 TP 31 (the HD TP) to leave the dish aiming alone. He says that Dish is still tweaking the E*10 bird and probably will be into the Fall. He said there may also be 622 software issues, but he has not gotten any tech bulletins about Network HD dropouts on the 622. 

He agrees with my Ph.D. engr. friend that if you lose Viedo on only HD for CBS and NBC, but ABC and FOX are ok, then the problem is not with the LNB or the Separator. And if you have good signal strength on the HD TP, the problem has to be with the network feed to Dish, the bird needing to be tweaked, or maybe a software issue with the 622.

To repeat, I sometimes lose Video on NBC and CBS Dallas HD LIL when my son in a Dallas suburb does not. For now, it is a great mystery.


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

DishQaulity tech called me today and talked at length about loss of LIL HD Video on Dallas CBS and NBC. They volunteered to send me a new 622 without me asking. I am going to do some further testing for them and will report back if there is anything worthwhile to note.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

ClarkBar said:


> DishQaulity tech called me today and talked at length about loss of LIL HD Video on Dallas CBS and NBC. They volunteered to send me a new 622 without me asking. I am going to do some further testing for them and will report back if there is anything worthwhile to note.


Glad E* is sending U another 622. Your friend that installs KA band must not know what the frequency range of KA band is. It is 17 to 31 Ghz Echo 10 sat is a 12 Ghz KU bird. No real put down just info to file away.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

ClarkBar said:


> He says that Dallas HD LIL on E*10 110 are on KA Band that that SD locals are on KU Band.


Does Dish Network do Ka band at other than 105 and 121?


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

whatchel1 said:


> Glad E* is sending U another 622. Your friend that installs KA band must not know what the frequency range of KA band is. It is 17 to 31 Ghz Echo 10 sat is a 12 Ghz KU bird. No real put down just info to file away.


Interesting. My installer friend went to a meeting in Dish office in Dallas and came away with info that E*10 was using both KA and KU. Will discuss with him the next time I catch him in the office. He also installs WildBlue, which is KA, so I would think he knows KA from KU. Maybe not.


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

harsh said:


> Does Dish Network do Ka band at other than 105 and 121?


I was suggesting that Dish had both KA and KU on E*10 at 110 location, but maybe that is not true - according to another post. I know nothing about 105 and 121


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

ClarkBar said:


> Interesting. My installer friend went to a meeting in Dish office in Dallas and came away with info that E*10 was using both KA and KU. Will discuss with him the next time I catch him in the office. He also installs WildBlue, which is KA, so I would think he knows KA from KU. Maybe not.


The info on Lyngsat.com show the frequencies being used by Dish on Echo 10. Her is the link.

http://www.lyngsat.com/echo10.html

this show that all chs (transponders) are in the 12 Ghz range. 
KA is in the 17 to 31 Ghz freq range. It is my understanding that in the future both D* & E* are planning to use KA band sats but don't have them on the sats we have discussed here. Sat 121 is a C/Ku band bird using C 3.7 to 4.2 Ghz & Ku of 11.7 to 12.2 Ghz.

http://www.lyngsat.com/echo9ia13.html

The sat at 105 is a Ku band only bird it use 11.7 to 12.2 Ghz.

http://www.lyngsat.com/amc15.html

This shows the different set of frequencies used for sats in the F.S.S. (fixed sat service) C/Ku band birds. Where as DBS (direct broadcast service) is what E* & D* are using right now. Right now there are only a couple of satellites running Ka band. The Spaceways birds are owned by D* and are testing. Wild Blue is running Ka for internet service. Those are the only units right now that are running Ka.

I have worked w/ audio, video, and satellite for over 25 years. I have a degree in broadcast engineering and helped install my first satellite system in 1988. So here I hope this info will help others understand what is going on w/ the satellites in the Clark belt of geo-stationary satellite band.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

whatchel1 said:


> Right now there are only a couple of satellites running Ka band. The Spaceways birds are owned by D* and are testing.


In 2003, Telstar 8 was launched with some Ka transponders. AMC-15 and AMC-16 which were launched in 2004 both carry a dozen Ka transponders. There's also Nimiq 2 and Anik F2.

I'm pretty sure that D* has been using Ka to deliver HD LIL for a while now. That's why they have the gargantuan AT9 dish for HD LIL subscribers.


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## chiotti (Jun 1, 2006)

ClarkBar said:


> Just talked with my installer, who owns the dealership and also does WildBlue installations and StarBand. He says that Dallas HD LIL on E*10 110 are on KA Band that that SD locals are on KU Band. He said that if I have a signal reading of 82 on 110 TP 31 (the HD TP) to leave the dish aiming alone. He says that Dish is still tweaking the E*10 bird and probably will be into the Fall. He said there may also be 622 software issues, but he has not gotten any tech bulletins about Network HD dropouts on the 622.
> 
> He agrees with my Ph.D. engr. friend that if you lose Viedo on only HD for CBS and NBC, but ABC and FOX are ok, then the problem is not with the LNB or the Separator. And if you have good signal strength on the HD TP, the problem has to be with the network feed to Dish, the bird needing to be tweaked, or maybe a software issue with the 622.
> 
> To repeat, I sometimes lose Video on NBC and CBS Dallas HD LIL when my son in a Dallas suburb does not. For now, it is a great mystery.


I have the same problem here in AZ, the Phoenix NBC & CBS HD just goes dark until a reboot. ABC & FOX seem to always be ok. also the stutering is worse on NBC & CBS , jay leno and letterman shows are alfull. I dont have a problem with voom or any other hd channels


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

ClarkBar said:


> Thanks for links. I also queried a Dish Technical Operational Coordinator. Here is part of his response:
> 
> "To answer the questions you have about Echo X satellite. First, all transponders on that bird are Spotbeams and the entire bird is KU band. SD Dallas locals do in fact come from two different Spotbeams; mainly the big four (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC) come from Spotbeam 20 all other stations come from Spotbeam 29. The HD Dallas locals come from Spotbeam 31."
> -----------------
> ...


What is strange is that what the spotbeam chart I have found show (thru dbstalk) that Dallas is on beam # 21. Maybe the map I have is wrong or he mis-spoke the number. 31 shows to be New Mexico's beam, & I'm in 26. Anyway what counts is they are now taking care of your problem.

http://ekb.dbstalk.com/E10spots/e10spots.pdf


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

whatchel1 said:


> What is strange is that what the spotbeam chart I have found show (thru dbstalk) that Dallas is on beam # 21.


You may have to be careful about trying to pin down spotbeams on E10. I seem to recall hearing something about an ability to re-point at least some of its 49 spots.

The current state of the various spots is probably best derived from TNGTony's chart.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

harsh said:


> You may have to be careful about trying to pin down spotbeams on E10. I seem to recall hearing something about an ability to re-point at least some of its 49 spots.
> 
> The current state of the various spots is probably best derived from TNGTony's chart.


Could U supply a link to TNGTony's chart?


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

whatchel1 said:


> What is strange is that what the spotbeam chart I have found show (thru dbstalk) that Dallas is on beam # 21. Maybe the map I have is wrong or he mis-spoke the number. 31 shows to be New Mexico's beam, & I'm in 26. Anyway what counts is they are now taking care of your problem.
> 
> http://ekb.dbstalk.com/E10spots/e10spots.pdf


This may be simply a matter of definitions and the lack of the Point Dish screen to have multiple readouts on a single Transponder.

When you look at the channel chart at:

http://ekb.dbstalk.com/dishlist.htm

the Dallas HD LIL is listed at 31s21 and a footnote says that means TP 31 and Spot 21.

I asked the Dish tech, who I quoted earlier, if in fact it was true that the Dallas HD LIL was on Transponder 31, but when the wording switched from "Transponder" to "Spotbeam" we were in fact reading the signal strength of TP31Spot21. He answered that Dallas LIL was on Spotbeam 31. I really think it is a terminolgy problem - and I will get it clarified unless someone else does it.

I wish the tech had answered my VERY specific question about TP vs Spot numbers with more clarity.

So, your overlay chart showing Spot 21 covering N and NE TX and S Okla is consistent with my thesis that we click on TP 31 on Point Dish, it changes to the word "Spotbeam," and we are reading the signal from TP31Spot 21.

If you look at the chart linked above - Dallas SD is on both TP20s21 and TP29s21. You will notice that the tech answered that Dallas SD LIL was on both Spotbeam 20 and Spotbeam 29. Semantics, but confuing to everyone. And I have just added to the confusion.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

whatchel1 said:


> Could U supply a link to TNGTony's chart?


Try banging around in http://ekb.dbstalk.com. This is where the hardcore Dish Network observers post what they've discovered. There's lots of material in there for the newbie and expert alike.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

ClarkBar said:


> This may be simply a matter of definitions and the lack of the Point Dish screen to have multiple readouts on a single Transponder.
> 
> When you look at the channel chart at:
> 
> ...


It isn't semantics. It reading it in reverse. The Tp is the satellite transponder (more or less like a channel. The s or spot is the spotbeam that the transponder is transmitting on. The reasons for spotbeams is to be able to use a transponder one than once in different areas.


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## ClarkBar (Mar 5, 2006)

whatchel1 said:


> It isn't semantics. It reading it in reverse. The Tp is the satellite transponder (more or less like a channel. The s or spot is the spotbeam that the transponder is transmitting on. The reasons for spotbeams is to be able to use a transponder one than once in different areas.


Exactly. In the Dallas area, it we tune to TP 31, we would then be reading the signal from Spotbeam 21. If you were in Orlando, Fla and tuned to TP 31 on Point Dish screen, you would see the output from Spotbeam 1 (31s1).

So, the chart that lists all the channels and notes spotbeams as an "s", as in 31s21 for Dallas, and your PDF overlay chart agree. For example, your PDF overlay shows Spotbeam 1 is generally over Fla. Channel chart shows Orlando as 31s1.


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