# Playback stuttering



## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

Has ANYONE else had their 721 recordings stutter upon playback? It doesn't seem to be tied with another show, or even two, being recorded while trying to playback a previously recorded program -- it can happen even when no recordings are happening at the time of playback. It also doesn't seem to be tied to the amount of time remaining on the hard drive (I've had mine down under 11 hours and as high as 70, but still programs can stutter on playback).

The picture and sound will stutter for a few seconds. It might happen only once during a show, or it can happen several times within a few seconds. Usually, when this happens I can hear excessive hard drive grinding. My guess is fragmentation.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I have also noticed this as well as other members of the board.

I think disk defragmentation is needed as well. This would not cause all shows to be deleted would it? Would that help solve the problem? A reboot? Is there a way of deleting everything off of the hard drive and starting over to fix this? If so one should not have to go throug this to defrag a hard drive. I know on our computers it takes a good while but at least it does not erase everything on it. 

Since we can backup info on our computers can the same be done on the PVR units for when someone may want to sell their receiver and keep the shows they have on it or store it for later use without taking up all of the space or to free up space. One could also use the backup to view on a computer, or back to the tv if you have a tv card to display on a tv in which could be put through the A/V jacks to be displayed on channel 0


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *I have also noticed this as well as other members of the board.
> 
> I think disk defragmentation is needed as well. This would not cause all shows to be deleted would it? Would that help solve the problem? A reboot? Is there a way of deleting everything off of the hard drive and starting over to fix this? If so one should not have to go throug this to defrag a hard drive. I know on our computers it takes a good while but at least it does not erase everything on it.
> ...


Phew, thought maybe it was just me with the stuttering!

Yes, I believe defragging is what it needs, and no it wouldn't erase anything. The time needed to really defrag might be considerable (I'm not a Linux expert, though), but it could be scheduled to take place at the user's convenience. The scheduling would have to also take into account when the next timer will fire -- defragging while trying to access the HD at the same time would definitely not be recommended.

Sure, you could dump everything to VHS, or to your computer, but I forsee three problems there:

1) that would take a lot of VHS tapes

2) who has that much HD space on their computer to dedicate soley to this process?

3) there would be no way to get said backup back on the PVR's HD.


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## krlauver (Nov 29, 2002)

Yes, I described the symptoms as hiccups. They stopped after my hard drive started clunking very loudedly and the remote no longer controlled the receiver. After that I shutdown the receiver by holding the power button on the front for about five seconds and turned it back on only to see a screen reporting a hard drive problem. As I got ready to call DISH support the screen timed out and disappeared. Thinking that DISH would ask me to reboot I unplugged the unit and plugged it back in after it had time to wind down the hard drive. When it came up, it initialized the hard drive and reinstalled the latest version L1.07. Since then the hiccups have not been observed. I did have an event to record a half hour show end up recording for 10+ hours until I rebooted the machine this morning.


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## greylar (Oct 31, 2002)

I have noticed these as well. IMO is something to do with how it records. If after it happens you rewind and play the scene again you will notice the exact same sequence of events. This leads me to believe that it is a recording issue, not a hard drive issue at the time of playback.

Any thoughts?

Greylar


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by greylar _
> *I have noticed these as well. IMO is something to do with how it records. If after it happens you rewind and play the scene again you will notice the exact same sequence of events. This leads me to believe that it is a recording issue, not a hard drive issue at the time of playback.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> ...


If I rewind and playback the same area, it does NOT stutter again.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I saw stutter last night on Jag. Its annoying but not as bad as other bugs.


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## krlauver (Nov 29, 2002)

When it was doing it before the my hard drive was initialized and the software reinstalled, the stutter was not present when the show was rewound leading me to believe the program was not recorded that way. It only showed up during playback and never live.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I never saw it live either.


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## greylar (Oct 31, 2002)

Thats interesting that it is a playback issue. I wonder if there isn't enough buffering to keep up with the stream when the hard drive gets busy. Can anyone confirm if it happens more when there is a show (or two) being recorded at the same time?

Greylar


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## SParker (Apr 27, 2002)

I only notice it on WWOR and Enterprise.


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## Wedgecon (Jul 13, 2002)

I doubt that disk fragmentation is a problem on PVR's. They store maybe a few hundred large files? 

People used to think the Dishplayer had all kinds of defrag problems before that was disproved..

The buffering problem seems more likely to me..


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I would still think, as huge of a hard drive, and as many different shows there are, that one may be needed, and even more so with the folders ideas, and the other things that are stored on the hard drive as well.


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## Danbo (Oct 3, 2002)

This stuttering is becoming an annoyance. And, from what I've experienced with my 721, it may be getting worse. It was one thing to have the sound delayed for maybe a second when doing the 30 second skip ahead. But I've also noticed it, at times, lasting for up to 2 or 3 seconds. It's not just skip ahead, but backwards as well.

I've also found, after recording "The Early Show" for the Survivor payout, and subsequently playing it back, there was at least one spot where the picture literally froze for a couple seconds. The sound continued, or appeared to, but the picture froze. I didn't watch it live, so I can't be sure it wasn't a problem with CBS.

It's okay to have slow motion and frame by frame, but to be honest, those being there when I could pause, and skip forwards or backwards, tends to be annoying now. I do believe these issues are the result of the new version of software that we received. The problems weren't there prior, but have been there since.

I make sure that, weekly, I've pretty much cleaned up all my recorded programs. There are usually no more then a couple, at most, left after Sunday. I generally record up to two or three programs each day, during the week that is. Is disk defrag necessary? I'm not really sure. All I know is what I see, and that being these problems weren't happening prior to the software upgrade.

I'm one that had problems with timers prior to the upgrade but, thankfully, haven't really had them since. Yet now it's something new. During playback at times I've experienced pixelation. That I find minor as it happens rarely. What I found odd last night, when forwarding through commercials at a quick pace was the "acquiring satellite" message popped up. I was using the 30 second advance and this message pops up during it? I have more trouble with skipping forward or backward with this unit. None previously, but always now after the upgrade.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I think that its the software though because it never done this before this new software came out.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Yeah i saw that glitch during the survivor morning show too. Anyone watch it LIVE? Did it affect all boxes?

I have seen twice that acquiring sat message too. Never before the upgrade. 

It might be someone elses headache. If E goes ahead with the PVR fee I am a new D tivo sub. Do Tivos have any software issues klike this?


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> * If E goes ahead with the PVR fee I am a new D tivo sub. *


I haven't heard anything about this! The only reason I went with Dish's PVR over the TiVo was beacuse of the monthly fee, or lack thereof.

I spent $450 for this 721 outfit and I don't think they have to pinch every last penny out of the endusers, especially when I already subscribe to the Top 100 + HBO/Cinemax. I would also buy the NFL Sunday Ticket through them if they ever get their proverbial crap together and offer it.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wedgecon _
> *I doubt that disk fragmentation is a problem on PVR's. They store maybe a few hundred large files? ...The buffering problem seems more likely to me.. *


I agree. I've seen posts explaining the methods that PVR's use to avoid fragmentation, and well-designed PVR's do not need to ever be de-fragged. I wish someone who truly understands this would post it again, because I've forgotten the basics, but suffice it to say that the proper explanation removes any doubt about PVR fragmentation.

Not only that, but HD's are significantly fast enough to handle two records and a simultaneous playback, and the problem is random...occuring when no records are happening as well as when they are. It's not a throughput issue. Most drives are 5400 RPM and some PVR's even use 4200.

That being said, it does not then exclude another software or even hardware issue. The fact that it did not happen for the first month of my 721 ownership leads me to think it's not a hardware issue, unless the hardware in question resides in Cheyenne or Gilbert.

Here are three interesting points which might help:

1. I most definitely started experiencing this problem 2 entire days before receiving the L107 upgrade, so I think we can rule this out.

2. I have recently seen the same thing, but to a lesser extent, and not always at exactly the same time, on my 501 (P167), which never had this problem in the past 21 months.

3. Those who report that it happens exactly on the same spot on playback and those who say it doesn't...you're both right. Occasionally I can reproduce it on playback, and occasionally not. Sometimes repeating the same spot will cause the error, sometimes not. Sometimes repeating the same spot a number of times will never repeat the error, some times it always will.

SIgnal strength is still always consistently high on all transponders.

My guess is that it is due to unforeseen issues related to recent manipulation of statmux or balancing of x-ponders on E7 / E8. As Wedgecon says, the end result looks like a buffering issue. I believe we are at the mercy of the E* engineers to fix this one at the source.


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## Danbo (Oct 3, 2002)

Funny, while watching Battlebots tonight, LIVE, I got hit with "Acquiring Satellite" not once, but three times, and within a matter of 5 minutes. It was using Sat 2 at the time (dunno why, except maybe for me using the recall button). After the third time the screen pixelated a bit. I tried hitting record to record it should it happen again, but after that third time, at least for now, it stopped. Seems to just be goin whacko a bit more now.


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## Filip1 (Sep 3, 2002)

I don't think all these problems are software issues, but some kind of signal problem. I am getting all of the problems you are discussing here on my 501's and 508's and my 721. The last few days I have seen acquiring signal and digital breakup(hiccuping) and loss of audio on all 5 receivers. I really think we all should be calling dish and letting them know that this is a problem and that it seems to be fairly widespread.


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## EvanS (Mar 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by greylar _
> *I have noticed these as well. IMO is something to do with how it records. If after it happens you rewind and play the scene again you will notice the exact same sequence of events. This leads me to believe that it is a recording issue, not a hard drive issue at the time of playback.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> ...


I dunno about this...when I do a skip-back after stutter I get 50% success of proper playback. On mine anyway, it seems that if the audio just goes blank for a couple seconds, skipback usually seems to play it back ok. But if the stutter also includes a little video pixelization then I seldom, if ever, get it recovered.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I also noticed an acquiring satellite signal screen come on a couple three times one evening a few nights ago. 

If Dish would start charging a fee then most would get Tivo because it is a better product with less bugs, at least according to those on here. Maybe this is one reason why Dish does not charge for PVR functions on the 501, 508, and 721.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *Yeah i saw that glitch during the survivor morning show too. Anyone watch it LIVE? Did it affect all boxes?
> 
> I have seen twice that acquiring sat message too. Never before the upgrade.
> ...


Bob, The DTiVO isn't perfect, but no one is complaining about the current fee so either they are less concerned about the funds or are relatively happy with the level of quality.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Well, I had nearly constant intermittent breakup and pixellation most of Sunday. I narrowed it down to the Sat 2 input of my 721 (an also-connected 501 showed no problem).

Swapping all 4 outputs from my quad proved that the signal going into both ports was good (moving things resulted in the problem not moving from Sat Input 2). The problem existed on every channel of both 119 and 110 that I receive, so it's not channel or transponder related, either. Keeping Sat input 2 on either main or PIP with Sat input 1 on the other, even on the same channel, the problem only ever appeared on SI 2, and was pretty constant for most of the day. Signal strength was good, and a switch check and a reboot had no effect.

What this means is that if you don't ever set double records and never let timers fire while the unit is already on, you will only be using SI 1 and will never see the problem, so it may be much more widespread than any of us think. This is also the workaround recipe for ensuring that you don't get records that are affected by it, if indeed it is a problem specifically with SI 2, which I am now convinced of.

Advanced tech support's only soultion was to ground the system, which I did to no effect. This is not yet an action item on their list, so in order for them to even begin to look at this problem, many more of us need to call in with this problem.

How do you know which input is which? Apparently when the 721 powers up or records a single program when off it defaults to SI 1. SI 2 is only invoked if the PIP is turned on, or it will be the port recorded from if a timer fires when the unit is already on (since then you are already watching SI 1 in E-to-E mode).

MAKE THAT CALL!


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## William Pike (Dec 24, 2002)

Wow, this sounds exactly like the problem we were having, except on ours SI 1 was the one with the problem. 

Tech support also told us to check the grounding system etc.

I bypassed and later replaced the grounding block (three different Radio Shack's did not have the grounding block! I finally got it at The Home Depot) and several of the cables. But then I also noticed that no matter how I hooked up the cables SI 1 was the one with the problems. 

After lots of troubleshooting on my end I finally called Advanced Tech support again. They decided that since the problem always appeared on SI 1 no matter which cable was hooked up, that it must be the receiver. 

I now have a new 721 on it's way to me. We need to watch a LOT of TV before I give up the old unit and all the stuff we recorded!

Our original 721 shipping box was EXTREMELY damaged by UPS, so we requested FedEx ground for the replacement and it came out to the same price for shipping.


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## kyoo (Apr 4, 2002)

When it stutters, make note of the exact time.. is it on the hour? 5 minutes after? a multiple of 5? 

I have an atomic clock right above my TV and I always look up when it stutters.. it's usually on the hour.. or 15 after some times.

-Kyoo


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I did not think you had a choice on who ships you a replacement and I also thought the replacements were refurbished, not new.

I have had problems with one of the tuners off and on and they told me it was a grounding issue as well. I think there is a defect in the 721, bad tuner, just like the 501 had, same problem plus hard drive issues. Have not heard so many hard drive issues with the 721 as of yet but its still early.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kyoo _
> *When it stutters, make note of the exact time.. is it on the hour? 5 minutes after? a multiple of 5? .... *


What I'm seeing is this: It usually starts to happen once every 30 seconds or so, increasing to once every 5 or 10 seconds. Once in this state it can persist for hours, or even an entire day, with no apparent relief, even for more than a moment. Then it will eventually get further and further apart, and will stop altogether. The stuttering, as we're calling it, manifests as a single severe pixellation event about a half-second long, with resultant audio dropout. Recordings made under these circumstances are all but unwatchable.

The fact that I always see it only on S2 and others always see it only on S1 makes me wonder about possibilities of a decoder board being loose in an edge connector, of course I have no way of knowing if this is the form factor of this unit...it is more likely one single motherboard.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Well I suspect this is my problem too. I hate to exchange the unit for a refurb, since honestly the last 2 4700s unit I got were junk. The refurb dept well its pretty bad...

Plus we have maybe 60 hours of my wifes stuff on there and I am not really happy to dub it all to a videotape. Plus thers no easy way to do it.

E REALLY should have a way to transfer the hds content in such a case.

I will call tech support again, right now it appears ok.

But Metro has a input trouble too,,,, He has 80 hours stored


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *Plus we have maybe 60 hours of my wifes stuff on there and I am not really happy to dub it all to a videotape. Plus thers no easy way to do it.
> 
> E REALLY should have a way to transfer the hds content in such a case.
> ...


The stuttering I started this thread about is when the audio and video stop dead for a split second repeatedly in a 5 to 30 second or so timeframe. It ruins anything you're trying to dub off, so I have to literally babysit the 721 while I'm dubbing. I wish I could just start a movie on playback and walk away but the odds of it being worthless when I watch it from VHS are pretty high.

This really sucks!


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Mine's still doing it pretty regularly


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Me too


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