# Just added D*TiVo - so far so bad.



## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Well, I added a DirecTV system to my garage. I picked up the SD-DVR80 and got the basic spanish package since I am cheap and it's $10 less a month than total choice. Well, since it is me, the D*TiVo constantly reboots for no reason. After installing dozens of these things, I get the lemon. Go Figure. Spent hours on the phone at different times with tech support and got nowhere. Will have to replace my unit when I get a new one from my retailer. 

Now, as backround I have a E* 721 and 501. Here's a quick comparison:

1. The D*TiVo takes LONGER to reboot than my 721. Hopefully when I get the new one, it won't need a reboot very often. My 721 is stable and only rarely needs a reboot(all my DVRs are on UPS backups).
2. The Guide on the D*TiVo is SLOW! These things use PowerPC procs and Linux, right? So what is the deal. My 721 is fast as can be, 9 days into the guide in less than 5 secs.
3. I like the idea of the ability to record name based since some of the shows I like are only on 4 days and this is a problem with the 721.

Will post more as I find it out. Hopefully, when I get the new unit, it will be a better experience. Can't wait to crack it open and upgrade the drives with a hot swap setup.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

1) I'm not one of those people that sings Tivo's praises of perfection while mocking those who haven't made the same choice in DVRs as I have, but this is one area where I find it hard not to sound that way. The fact that you obviously assume that regular reboots are a normal part of DVR maintenance is a good example of why so many people can seem as obnoxious as they may about their DTivos. I haven't rebooted either of mine in the nearly two years I've had them. They've rebooted automatically (a word not to be confused with 'spontaneously', as is so often in Dish's case), after software updates, but those are both nessecary and by design. But that's the only time they should reboot. I'm not sure if it takes longer than a 721 or 501 (both of which I used to own) because I don't remember the last time I observed my DTivo rebooting, but based on my experience, it won't matter.

2) This is an area that just about everyone complains about and one of the few (IMO) areas that Dish has the clear advantage. But there are two guide styles to choose from. The grid, which is the default, is much slower than the Tivo style guide. Try the Tivo guide and you'll notice at least some improvement, although it still won't be anywhere near the speed of the Dish DVR guide.


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## dturturro (Nov 24, 2004)

As one of those "sing the praises" people I have to say the reason I love TiVo is the TiVo functionality (name based recording, season passes, etc...) not the boxes themselves. I'm debating about adding a 921 to my HD & SD TiVos, but with all of the bugs I am seeing are scaring me away.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

True, but look at how many people have to constantly reboot their computers due to the incompitence of MS's programming team. Sure, the 721 does lock up occasionally. However, it's normally just fine after a quick reboot. The many advantages that the 721 has far outwieghs the occasional reboot problem, IMHO. I realize that the problem I am having ewith this unit is unusual, I just am amused that it had to happen to me, someone who really does not like the TiVo interface to begin with. The TiVo style guide only shows the currently running program, where the D* style guide shows 1 1/2 hours. The 721 shows 2 hours. The 501 doesn't use Linux, and is very fast at rebooting, other than having to download the 9 day guide if you unplug the machine. The 721 takes longer since it is based on Linux, which is not an OS that boots fast to begin with. When I get everything setup, I will time how long it takes both units to power up and go from an unplugged state just to make sure that I am not favoring the 721. As for the 921, they just released a major update, so hopefully this will take care of most of the problems. I realize that people expect a piece of home entertainment to work better, but DVRs are just basically computers, and if you use MS's media center editiona, you run into a lot of PC based problems there as well.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

I just swtich from Dish (a 721) to DirecTV a couple of weeks ago (see my comments in the Dish vs Directv thread) and so far I am a bit disappointed with Tivo. I have had to reboot it twice because of the loss of color issue, and it definitely seems to take longer than the 721 did. The guide is also a huge disappointment, although a lot of that is made up for with the speed of the search.

So far I consider the differences between the Tivo and the 721 to be a wash.

Dennis


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> The TiVo style guide only shows the currently running program


 You can't be referring to the Tivo style guide. It should go out quite a few hours. Try this; While the guide is up, press the 'Info' button. That'll bring you to a menu called Guide Options. Move down to the line that reads "DIRECTV Grid" and press the right arrow key to change to "TiVo Live Guide". Then press the select button twice and you'll see the guide has changed to the Tivo style. It doesn't look so great (I couldn't stand it at first) but it's noticably faster than the DirecTV grid. Which isn't saying much but at least it's something.

As for what you say about the 721's "many advantages", I have a question for you... Huh? LOL Personally, I made the switch for one reason. IMHO, name based recording makes a DVR. But you have your preference and I'm trying REAL hard not to be "one of those" people. You know, people like dturturro. 

Dennis, I'm glad to hear that you find the difference a wash. I was convinced you really regretted your decision to switch. As you get more familiar with Tivo I'm sure you'll appreciate it more.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

TerryC said:


> Dennis, I'm glad to hear that you find the difference a wash. I was convinced you really regretted your decision to switch. As you get more familiar with Tivo I'm sure you'll appreciate it more.


Terry, I think a big part of it is that I had really high expectations for Tivo after reading all the comments from "those people" for so long.

What will really make me appreciate it more is if we get that software update that's supposed to speed up the guide 

Dennis


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

larrystotler said:


> The TiVo style guide only shows the currently running program, where the D* style guide shows 1 1/2 hours.


That's untrue. The Tivo Style guide shows 8+ hours per channel. One reason why I find it funny that people say it's bad for channel surfing. You can sit down at 6pm and quickly go through the 4 networks and see what's on for the whole evening in about 15 seconds. Set to record what you want and you're done. Can't be much faster then that.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

I still have some playing to do when my replacement arrives, but when I switched it to the TiVo style guide, it only showed the current program in the channel list. And it wasn't much faster. The 721 shows 2 full hours for 7(I think) channels at one time, and by using the skip ahead button, you skip up 1 day(and back with the skip back). Does the DirecTiVo have a similar feature. Also, the lack of a stop button is different. I like the ability to stop the current buffer and switch to live mode, but I believe that hitting the live TV button basically does the same thing.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

I think your problem is you didn't have a fully loaded guide. Like the 721, the Tivo takes a little time to get up to speed after you first activate it.

The only think I've found on skipping ahead with the Tivo guide is one of the buttons goes an hour and a half ahead instead of half an hour.

I also find the lack of a stop button really annoying when I'm watching a recording. But apparently the left arrow provides the same functionality. 

Another thing the Tivo is lacking is a "start over" option when you go to watch a recording that you've previously started. The only option is "resume". People complain about the 721 defaulting to "start over" instead of "resume", but at least it has the start over option. 

Dennis


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

No, the guide finally loaded even though the box still contantly reboots. I am waiting on the replacement, and will ***** to D* about getting a credit for the time I have been really unable to use it. It's just slow, especially compared to the 721. I'm trying to keep a fairly open mind about things considering that I am a 721 owner, and have never been impressed with the TiVo setup. I will be able to give a better evaluation after my replacement arrives.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Please time your actual reboot time with a watch. Last time I checked my 721 it was 4 minutes....

Whats a D Tivos time?


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

What's a watch? Haven't owned one since I got my first pager 12 years ago....Hmmmm.....SInce I have the D*TiVo running into my computer, I will have to see if it has some kinda chrono function available.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> Please time your actual reboot time with a watch. Last time I checked my 721 it was 4 minutes....
> 
> Whats a D Tivos time?


 I just timed my HDVR2. Four minutes. But I continue to be confused as to why that's relavant to a machine that doesn't need rebooting.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

larrystotler said:


> I still have some playing to do when my replacement arrives, but when I switched it to the TiVo style guide, it only showed the current program in the channel list. And it wasn't much faster. The 721 shows 2 full hours for 7(I think) channels at one time, and by using the skip ahead button, you skip up 1 day(and back with the skip back). Does the DirecTiVo have a similar feature. Also, the lack of a stop button is different. I like the ability to stop the current buffer and switch to live mode, but I believe that hitting the live TV button basically does the same thing.


Basically you just have to get used to it. It is a totally different machine and software with different ways of doing things. Just the way it is. Can't have a 721 with DirecTV so you'll have to just learn the new way of doing things.

1) Tivo Guide. On the left column you'll see the current program on about 10 or so channels. On the right column you'll see the next 8-12 hours of programs for the selected channel. Arrow down to the next channel, see the next 8-12 hours on that channel. Try it for at least 2 weeks. Most learn to love it. Maybe you won't. It is *much* quicker then the grid style guide. It takes 2 days or so to get the full guide data but if it keeps rebooting then it may never get the full guide.

2) Skip ahead. While in the Tivo guide, click the fast forward or rewind button to go ahead in half hour blocks. You can also click the "info" button and change the time/date to anything you want up to 12 days or so in the future.

3) Stop button. Hit the left arrow (which takes you "back" to the Now playing list). Just the different way Tivo thinks. If you want to "stop" the current buffer, simply hit pause and then hit the down arrow which will swap you to the other tuner. However, if that tuner is recording something it of course will not be live TV. You can down arrow back to the paused tuner, but be aware that it will only keep the pause for the 30 minute buffer. If you are behind live on a buffer and want to get to "live" then hit the "advance" button which will take you right back live tv (or "catch up to live" as Tivo people say).


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

TerryC said:


> I just timed my HDVR2. Four minutes. But I continue to be confused as to why that's relavant to a machine that doesn't need rebooting.


Curosity since people mention D TIVOs reboot slow.

My 721 is 4 minutes, or was last time I checked.

All boxes like these should live on a UPS.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Ok, just got the replacement in today. CSR was adament that the TiVo would not be able to record without a continuous phone connection......Took some explaining, but anyway. What I will probably do is put the 721 and the D*TiVo side by side and reboot both of them at the same time. However, this will have to wait till after christmas when I have a chance to do some rewiring. This unit is working much better. Turned off the TiVo record suggestions garbage(the first unit recorded 20 cartoons when I had it record Static Shock 1 time......Geez). Set my channel list and turned off the annoying sound effects. I actually have it at my garage, which is not at my house, so I will have to wait to play with it some more. Did find out that hitting the fast forward/back buttons in the grid guide jumps 1 1/2 hours.....still like the 1 day that the 721 does. And, instead of waiting for the guide to redraw, it will skip forward fairly fast if you keep hitting the buttons. The screen redraws are very slow, but I hear an update is in the works for it. I will do some more comparisions on it when I have the chance.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> Ok, just got the replacement in today. CSR was adament that the TiVo would not be able to record without a continuous phone connection.


That CSR is full of it.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

Total BS about the phone line. As for skipping ahead, you can hit the info button while the guide is up to tell it exactly what day and time you want it to jump to.


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## stevesmall (Jul 28, 2004)

You could always get the dvr from VOOM LOL


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

TerryC said:


> Total BS about the phone line. As for skipping ahead, you can hit the info button while the guide is up to tell it exactly what day and time you want it to jump to.


Yeah, but she said she didn't have a TiVo and was just going by what they are required to tell subs. Can't really blame her. I'm sure D* wants everyone to think they have to have that phone line. As for jumping to a specific date and time, that is ok, but kinda slower than just jumping 9 days with 9 pushes of the skip forward button on my 721. I did notice that you can keep hitting the button, and the guide will jump without redrawing the grid, so that is a big plus. As for the TiVo style guide, don't care for it. I like to scroll through what all the listed channels have for the current guide block. Seeing the next 8 programs on the current channel is kinda useless to me.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Than use the DirecTV style grid, larry. That'll do.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Well, it's already disappointed me. I set up a season pass to record a show last night at midnight, and it did not do it. It recorded Justice League for me at 8:30pm, but it did not record Doctor Whoo on MPT. I went into the settings, and everything was setup right, and it showed the next one to record, but no recording was made. Also, it showed a repeat for JL at 5pm on sat for the same episode even though it was the same one and I have it set to record first one only. I have it running into my computer with a WinTV card under Linux, and I must say that the picture quality is nowhere near as good as the 721 running into it the same way.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

Had you just installed your unit and was your guide up to date?

I helped install a 10-250 HD DirecTivo a few days ago and my sister in law was trying to set up season passes within two hours of the install. I noticed that it was not catching that evenings programming in the to do list. She had to set them up as one time recordings in the guide. 

I assume this problem was because the guide was not fully populated because I have never had the same problem on my two DirecTivos.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

Phil T said:


> I assume this problem was because the guide was not fully populated because I have never had the same problem on my two DirecTivos.


It didn't get any episodes in the future because the guide wasn't populated. It didn't flag that day's shows because the Tivo needs time to index. In other words, it needs a while to find the shows in the guide.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Yes, I installed the new one last wed, and it had 3 days to get the guide. It just did not fire that timer on the local channel, where it fired the timer for cartoon network a few hours earlier. I have yet to set up any other timers, so I will see if this one fires on sat like it is supposed to. MPT changes the time that Doctor Who is on weekly. This isn't a problem on E* since they don't carry MPT, which is basicallhy the only reason I decided to get the D*TiVo.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

Look in the To Do List and go to "Recording History". It'll tell you why that timer didn't fire. If there isn't an entry for that timer then it didn't fire because it hadn't indexed that show yet.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Will Do.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Well, I looked, and evidently I had set it up for first run, thinking that meant that it would fire the timer if it was the first time the receiver had seen it. I changed it to first run and repeats, but that seems kinda pointless if you can't set it up to record it the first time the receiver sees it instead of having to record all episodes, especially if you want to get the repeats that you haven't seen, but you don't want it to record the same episode more than once(or will it do that?). The E* 522 has that option with it's new name based recording. It's not was robust as the TiVo system, but it is an improvement. Too bad they aren't planning to offer it to any other current E* DVRs..... 

For those interested in looking at the E* 522's Name based Recording, here is the link:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/product_brochures/NBR_Standalone.pdf


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> ... but that seems kinda pointless if you can't set it up to record it the first time the receiver sees it instead of having to record all episodes, especially if you want to get the repeats that you haven't seen...


That would be one heck of a smart receiver that knew what shows you've seen before


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

LOL Not even Tivo is that smart. 

Larry, "Repeats & first run" won't record the same episode more than once in a 28 day period. Basically, that setting turns rerun episodes into first runs. It's a neat feature if you're trying to catch up on a series. The difference between that and "First run only" is that FRO will only record shows that have never been broadcast on television at all. But if you did want to record every showing of a program, even the same episode for some reason, you can do that by changing the setting to "All (with duplicates)". Everything's pretty much covered. 

Thanks for the link on the 522. I've been meaning to read up on Dish's name-based recording feature.


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## beejaycee (Nov 1, 2003)

> For those interested in looking at the E* 522's Name based Recording, here is the link:


Here's something I came across that might cause some confusion in people that are used to Tivo or a Dish PVR and switch to the other:

*Not a new episode* - Used for New Episode timers. Currently, a New Episode is one that has the current year listed in the EPG info.​


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Actually, if it had a way to database what shows have been on the recevier, it could do that. Obviously, there is a learning curve coming from an E* system, and still using said E* system....


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

larrystotler said:


> Actually, if it had a way to database what shows have been on the recevier, it could do that. Obviously, there is a learning curve coming from an E* system, and still using said E* system....


Actually it does. That's the 28 day rule. It won't record something if it already did in the last 28 days or if it's still in your now playing list. But obviously it will take over 28 days of using the box for it to start to kick in.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

It seems like there is a lot of stuff on the TiVo that doesn't really seem to be relavent to me, but oh well. I don't care for the suggestions feature and turned it off. I guess if I took the time to train it it would be a better thing, but having 2 E* dvrs as well, it seems like a frivolous feature. Hopefully, I will have more time to play with this over XMas.


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## LarryS (Apr 22, 2002)

Since everything you pick to record, season passes, and wish list items automatically get 1 thumbs up, your Tivo will train itself over time. Give it a while then try suggestions again they should be more in tune. Also since suggestions fill up the dead space on the hard drive counting them up is the easiest way to know how much available space is there.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> It seems like there is a lot of stuff on the TiVo that doesn't really seem to be relavent to me, but oh well. I don't care for the suggestions feature and turned it off. I guess if I took the time to train it it would be a better thing, but having 2 E* dvrs as well, it seems like a frivolous feature. Hopefully, I will have more time to play with this over XMas.


As a veteran DTIVO owner, I've never had suggestions turned on, never will. You don't need their annoying cluttering recordings anyway.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

What is the deal with the picture quality? I have noticed that I get pixelations and fuzzy scenes from my D*TiVo on occasion. My signal is 96+ on both tuners, and it has nothing to do with weather related stuff. It did it the other night when I was recording the Matrix off CineMax................................. I realize that it merely saves the stream from D*, but I didn't expect it to be this noticable..........


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

You seem to want us to convince you that DirecTV and Tivo is the right way to go, but you've done little more than reject our suggestions and complain. Why don't you just stay with Dish? Your mind is obviously made up.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

You seem to have missed the point about this entire thread. I am an installer for both companies. I got the TiVo so that I can learn to use it so that I can better troubleshoot the system for my customers. I stated up front that I have never cared for the TiVo interface, and that I was going to share my experience with it since I have 2 E* DVRs. I have pointed out a lot of good things and a lot of bad things about both systems, and that the best system would include the strengths of both DVRs. While I personally don't think much of it picking programs for me to watch, I can see how this would be of interest to others, and I still need to learn more about the system. I will say that the picture quality is, IMHO, worse with the D*TiVo than with my E* 721. However, I said that I believed this was due to D*'s use of MPEG1.5 instead of MPEG2 like E* uses. I think that D*'s SD picture looks worse on an HD set than E*'s, and since my customer base is almost 100% HD owners, I think this is a bad thing for D* due to the complete lack of HD content. However, E*'s picture quality on the SD channels is not that much better, especially on their local channels. I will admit that I didn't come into this with a good impression of the TiVo, but I am trying to make an honest attempt to learn it's setup and I will probably work on training the system and see what happens when I re-enable certain features.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Ok, stupid question, but how do I find out how much time is left on my D*TiVo?


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## lee120 (Dec 2, 2002)

you can not, the only directv dvr that as that is the ultimatetv


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> Ok, stupid question, but how do I find out how much time is left on my D*TiVo?


Count up the used up space and subtract from the total capacity. That's about the best you can do. There isn't a free space indicator. For some reason most people on Tivocommunity seem to believe it's totally useless. It's one thing I missed when I switched. Still do.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

<sarcasm>Yeah, I love their workarounds for it. My favorite suggestion is to turn suggestions on and then look at how many suggestions you have to see howmuch free sapce is left.</sarcasm>

Everyone rags on Dish PVRs and they can do it. It's just lazy programming from Tivo.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

Tivo doesn't have it because the stand alones have different recording qualities that make it practically impossible to get an accurate estimate of available time left. The code was written before DirecTV partnered with them and DirecTV didn't want to pay for Tivo to write code for their recorders to include a free space indicator. So it's more DirecTV being cheap than Tivo being lazy. 

But yeah, I've heard that suggestions "work around" and I agree it's lame.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

I don't get that reasoning either. I had a first-generation ReplayTV unit and it had different recording qualities and it still had a free space indicator. I stopped using it over 2 years ago so I don't remember exactly how it did it, but it was there.


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## markh (Mar 24, 2002)

To get an idea of how soon the DirecTiVo is going to start erasing programs I recorded, I let it record a few suggestions. Just a few half hour shows is enough. Then I turn suggestions back off. When those suggestions start disappearing I know I've got to start catching up on shows I want to watch. Similar to dbronstein's method, I just don't want several pages of shows that TiVo recorded cluttering up the list. Not as good as a free space indicator, but at least I know when shows will start to be recorded over.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

Yeah but it's kind of a cheesy thing to have to resort to considering how advanced Tivo is supposed to be.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Right, that's what gets me about it. Everyone raves about how much better the DTivos are than the Dish PVRs, yet they lack such a basic feature. Not to mention the other day I changed a recording from "Save until space needed" to "Save until I delete" and it took literally minutes to save the change. But that's another rant.


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## beejaycee (Nov 1, 2003)

dbronstein said:


> Everyone raves about how much better the DTivos are than the Dish PVRs, yet they lack such a basic feature. Not to mention the other day I changed a recording from "Save until space needed" to "Save until I delete" and it took literally minutes to save the change.


Shame on me for allowing myself to be drawn into this but I can't help but interject. I don't hear people rave about how much 'better' the Tivo is than the 5XX as much as I hear them rave about how much better the Tivo does what it is supposed to do than the 5XX. If someone is expecting the Tivo to be a better version of the 5XX, he is going to be disappointed. The Tivo has its shortcomings but faulty software is not one of them. It is reliable, dependable, and customizable. Maybe that is a point I get than many critics do not.

As for the complaint about the free space - Tivos are not supposed to have "free space." The "free space" is supposed to be filled up with "suggestions" to enhance your TV viewing experience. You already know one work-around for figuring free space. If that's not enough, hack it and put in the back-door codes.

For your next complaint, yep, Tivos are slow. It's a trade-off for reliability in doing what it is supposed to do. If that's unacceptable, there are other options with other, faster DVRs. Or you could hack it and do these things from your computer so it is all done in the background.

A Tivo is not a DTivo, which is not a 501, which is not a 510, which is not a 522,which is not a ReplayTV, which is not an HP Media Center PC, which is not a... Surely, somewhere out there you can find a DVR you lilke. Life is too short to watch bad TV.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

Who says Tivos aren't "supposed" to have free space? Tivos are "supposed" to have as much or as little recorded on them as the owner thinks they're supposed to have. We wouldn't be able to turn off suggestions if it's supposed to be there to fill our drives up. My TV viewing experience is enhanced by NOT having suggestions record shows that are of no interest to me. I don't want my HD full of shows of which I have no idea why Tivo thinks I would care about. I may be using my Tivo in a way that's it's not designed for but the customer is always right. There should be a free space indicator as an option for those of us who care to have it. Not everyone is going to use their Tivo the way you describe.

I hope slowness isn't the trade off for reliability. The soon to be released 6.1 software is supposed to add considerable speed improvements. Seems like that would impact reliability, if your theory is correct. Are you sure Tivo isn't slow because it has a lot to do? And that it's reliable simply because the software is written and tested well?


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## beejaycee (Nov 1, 2003)

Okay, I could try to explain again as I miserably failed to get my point across the first time but why waste our time. I give, you win. Tivo Bad! MRV bad. Larger harddrive bad. 'Available space' hack bad. Tivoweb Plus bad. Hackman bad. Streaming audio bad. JavaHMO bad. Bufferhack bad. Endpad hack bad. Browser scheduling bad. HMO bad. What was I thinking? :whatdidid


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

No, Tivo good. MRV, no interest. Larger hard drive, got one, so... good. Hacking... for the extreme minority. What were you thinking...? Apparantly that this is some kind of battle. No, it's just a difference of opinion. The mainstream user is going to want the easiest solution. I don't see yours as very user friendly, even if people use their Tivos the way you say their supposed to.


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## beejaycee (Nov 1, 2003)

TerryC said:


> ... even if people use their Tivos the way you say their supposed to.


Where did I specify how people are "supposed" to use their Tivo? I guess I don't spend enough time before posting to try to get my points across. One of my points in my previous post is that a Tivo is what a Tivo is. (Please note that I am not stating, as you seemed to think, that a Tivo has to be slow to be reliable.)


> The mainstream user is going to want the easiest solution.


If you are a mainstream user who wants the easiest solution, let the equipment operate the way it was designed. However, if that is not good enough for you, another point I tried to make is that there are options available. As to whether or not it is user friendly to take advantages of those options, that is for the individual to decide. I found it to be very "user friendly" and educational.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Guys, us TiVovangelists aren’t supposed to be battling amongst ourselves, it's the Di****es that are our true opposition


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

beejaycee said:


> Shame on me for allowing myself to be drawn into this but I can't help but interject. I don't hear people rave about how much 'better' the Tivo is than the 5XX as much as I hear them rave about how much better the Tivo does what it is supposed to do than the 5XX. If someone is expecting the Tivo to be a better version of the 5XX, he is going to be disappointed. The Tivo has its shortcomings but faulty software is not one of them. It is reliable, dependable, and customizable. Maybe that is a point I get than many critics do not.
> 
> As for the complaint about the free space - Tivos are not supposed to have "free space." The "free space" is supposed to be filled up with "suggestions" to enhance your TV viewing experience. You already know one work-around for figuring free space. If that's not enough, hack it and put in the back-door codes.
> 
> ...


Read Tivocommunity - any time the mention of Dish comes up, there are 20 responses of "Dish DVRs suck" and such.

And who says I'm supposed to fill up my hard drive with the suggestions? I've looked at the suggestions list, and 80% of them are movies that I have absolutely no interest in seeing. Yes, I've tried rating the stuff and after two months it's still not coming up with any suggestions I actually want to watch. So why the heck should I fill up my hard drive with crap I don't want just because you think that's how I'm "supposed" to use my Tivo?

As for the reliability being a reason Tivos are slow, that's crap. I had a SA first generation ReplayTV unit for 2 years that was much faster than my DTivo and it never missed a recording. Then I had a Dish 721 for 2 years and despite all the complaints, it was solid as a rock for me, never missed a recording and was also much faster than my DTivo.

I just find it hilarious how any time someone dares to point out that Tivos aren't perfect, people such as yourself feel they have to rush to the defense and point out how we just aren't using them "the right way".


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Steve Mehs said:


> Guys, us TiVovangelists aren't supposed to be battling amongst ourselves, it's the Di****es that are our true opposition


But why does anyone have to take sides? I've had both and I've been satisfied with both. They both have their pros and cons.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

It was a tongue in cheek comment, but it is reality and an age old argument. No one has to take sides on anything but it's human nature. I'm sure there's a product, service, sports team or political situation that you are biased towards strongly and either dislike the competition because 1) It’s tradition 2) Negative experience with the competition or 3) Because it’s there. Montagues and Capulets. Ford V Chevy, Pepsi V Coke, PC V Mac. And even with experience, testimonials and facts, your mind is made up nothing can change your stance and you only see the pros of what you like, the cons of what you don't and sometimes exaggerate both. That’s exactly what this, no different then any other debate.

The Dish V DirecTV debate is as old as Dish is, nine years this March, and before that its was DirecTV and Primestar, most die hards will take sides between the two, sure there’s one or two things I miss about Dish, the time remaining meter being the only one I can think of off the top of my head. There are some that are satisfied with both that's fine, there are some that prefer Dish or DirecTV and then there's those like me, over 5 years with Dish, seeing the company take a radical downward spiral and producing what I (and a lot of others) consider to be garbage and no longer wishing to support that company. 

And the one thing I’m thankful in the industry is that there is competition and we do have a choice. Every time I set a Season Pass or check out my Now Playing List I’m thankful King Chuck, the mighty Echostar Emperor did not become lord of the DBS universe and I can chose whether or not I want a quality product with a slower interface or a lightning fast piece of crap that is nothing more then a VCR that can record on a hard drive and pause live TV.


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## beejaycee (Nov 1, 2003)

dbronstein said:


> I just find it hilarious how any time someone dares to point out that Tivos aren't perfect, people such as yourself feel they have to rush to the defense and point out how we just aren't using them "the right way".


Oh, but I have seen the error of my ways and have been shown the light! :uglyhamme I need to rush home and take all of the hacks off of my Tivo and then complain because it won't make a GOOD cup of coffee! :hurah:


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I don't think anyone will deny that the Tivo can be slow at times. I curse it once in a while. But that's a small price to pay for it to do what I want it to do (i.e. record my shows) better then virtually any other DVR out there.

If I every get annoyed by the slowness there are plenty of other alternatives out there. 

And DirecTV's home media center will probably replace all my Tivo's once it gets rolled out, assuming similar functionality. I love my Tivo's and have been a loyal Tivo user for nearly 5 years but if someone offers a similar or better product at a better price then I'm all over it. No one has yet to do that for my needs so I'll "deal" with the slowness from time to time. Like I'm really re-ordering season passes or setting recordins on a daily basis anyway. Perhaps once a week, if that. Otherwise I'm just watching TV.


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

beejaycee said:


> Oh, but I have seen the error of my ways and have been shown the light! :uglyhamme I need to rush home and take all of the hacks off of my Tivo and then complain because it won't make a GOOD cup of coffee! :hurah:


I guess I can understand how you totally misintepreted my posts. If your maturity level is akin to that of a six year old spoiled brat, then it shouldn't be surprising that your intellect would be on a similar level.


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## beejaycee (Nov 1, 2003)

TerryC said:


> I guess I can understand how you totally misintepreted my posts. If your maturity level is akin to that of a six year old spoiled brat, then it shouldn't be surprising that your intellect would be on a similar level.


So I guess my attempt to make a joke and lighten the dialogue went right past you?


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## TerryC (Jul 18, 2002)

Uh-huh... And it was so funny, too.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Considering that I have both the D*TiVo and the 721, I was trying to offer a good comparison, and was hoping to get some help adjusting to the difference of the TiVo interface. The sad fact it that TiVo is probably going to have a problem very soon and may well go under if they don't do something. They just blew a big deal with one of the major cable companies that could have helped them out tremendously. TiVo was a great idea is a still an execellent product for those who like the fact that it tried to do everything for you.


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## Goldentide (Jan 14, 2004)

D* installed my locals finally on Tues. 25th. They swapped out my Ultimate TV receiver and Samsung standard receiver with DirecTv R10 70hr Tivo and Directv D10 standard receiver. The Tivo is not nearly as user friendly as my Ultimate Tv receiver, an RCA DWD495RG 70 hr, but I guess I'll learn to live with it. Microsoft was so far ahead of the rest. I miss the fast guide, the My Shows button on the remote and its hard to get used to that annoying info screen each time you change the channel.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Goldentide said:


> ...and its hard to get used to that annoying info screen each time you change the channel.


If you're talking about the channel banner with the show discription you can change that. On the disc press the right arrow while the banner is up and it will cycle through just the channel name/number, then a banner with the current shows title and channel name/number and finally the full discription.


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## Goldentide (Jan 14, 2004)

Thanks, I will try that. I guess I should reserve judgement on the R10. But change is hard.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Goldentide said:


> Thanks, I will try that. I guess I should reserve judgement on the R10. But change is hard.


My response was for the Tivo, not the D10, sorry for any confusion.


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

TerryC said:


> I hope slowness isn't the trade off for reliability.


Just look at M$ Windoze: it's slow and unreliable! So much for that argument.


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## reddice (Feb 18, 2003)

I have the DirecTV Tivo now and I hate it. It is junk. When I had the 508 it was fast, had a hour buffer and I had no real problems with it. With this Tivo I got a slow guide, a pathetic half hour buffer which is not enough time, the thing keeps going to a black & white picture if you just attempt to change the channels and even does it when you are just watching tv. The remote stinks. It is uncomfortable and the button layout is terrible. I can think of other things but in general we don't like DirecTV and I hate the Tivo so much that in March we are most likely going to be switching back to Dish Network. Our family is also displeased and wants to switch back.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

reddice said:


> I can think of other things but in general we don't like DirecTV and I hate the Tivo so much that in March we are most likely going to be switching back to Dish Network. Our family is also displeased and wants to switch back.


PLEASE, hurry up and switch back to E* QUICKLY!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

reddice said:


> a pathetic half hour buffer which is not enough time


It's call the _record_ button.


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> It's call the _record_ button.


30 minutes is ridiculous! So, if I'm going to step out for a bit during a football game to get pizza and I end up getting tied up in trafic, etc., I'd better be damned sure I hit that record button instead of just goold ol' pause on the 721? That's sad...

I have been contemplating a change from the 721 to a TiVo, but the more I read here the more I'm thinking I can just live with the 721's bugs.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

IMO, the difference between a half hour or one hour buffer is irrelevant - they are both too short. My old Replay buffered up to the entire free space.

As for the overall differences, I've had my DTivo for over two months now after having a 721, and the Tivo has better functionality and the 721 has better usability. The Tivo has the season passes and better recording management features, but it is ridiculously slow. There is no reason for it to take so long to change screens. IMO, it's a wash and I've been equally satisfied with both of them. We just have D* because we have a better deal on the programming.

Dennis


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I gotta laugh. You want to dump DirecTV and your Tivo simply because of a half hour buffer. Wow. Why would anyone just hit pause and actually leave the house and drive in traffic, etc. Ok, whatever. Can't please everyone.

In fact the *best* thing to do for that football game would be to record it, start watching say 15-20 minutes after it starts or longer and then fast forward all the commercials. Used to do that with hockey all the time. Start watching about 40 minutes into the game and by the time I've caught up to live the game is about over. *That's* how to use your DVR to it's full power.


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> I gotta laugh. You want to dump DirecTV and your Tivo simply because of a half hour buffer. Wow. Why would anyone just hit pause and actually leave the house and drive in traffic, etc. Ok, whatever. Can't please everyone.
> 
> In fact the *best* thing to do for that football game would be to record it, start watching say 15-20 minutes after it starts or longer and then fast forward all the commercials. Used to do that with hockey all the time. Start watching about 40 minutes into the game and by the time I've caught up to live the game is about over. *That's* how to use your DVR to it's full power.


I never said I was switching due to buffer lengths. I like my 721, but I HATE the bugs (the biggest of which is the stuttering/lagging of the video playback at times). This bug has been in every one of the 4 721s I have had over the past 2.5 years. I was kind of hoping to get rid of that bug by going to a 522, but I'm not so sure it is gone there either.

As far as the football... to each his own. I kind of like being able to pause a show for whatever reason and KNOWING I can pick up where I left off within a 2 hour timeframe on the 721.


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

Don't you people record everything you want to watch? That is how a TiVo is intended to be used.


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

Curtis0620 said:


> Don't you people record everything you want to watch? That is how a TiVo is intended to be used.


I prefer my football live, but yes most of what I watch is time shifted via my 721.


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

Bogey62 said:


> I prefer my football live, but yes most of what I watch is time shifted via my 721.


Then why is the buffer an issue?

Record the football also, but watch it in real time, the buffer is then irrelevant.


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

Curtis0620 said:


> Then why is the buffer an issue?
> 
> Record the football also, but watch it in real time, the buffer is then irrelevant.


Somehow I don't think this issue is even worth discussing any longer. I don't want to HAVE to hit record for every show I'm watching just on the off chance I have to pause it for a bit. I love the 2 hour buffer on the 721 and think that 30 minutes is ridiculously low. That's all.


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

No you set up an "auto-record keyword wishlist" that will record your favorite team whenever they are on.


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

Curtis0620 said:


> No you set up an "auto-record keyword wishlist" that will record your favorite team whenever they are on.


Not with a Dish 721.


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

Sorry, I thought we were talking about TiVo functionality and why the 30-minute buffer is meaningless.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

There are ways to increase the 30 minute buffer to over 1 - 1/2 hours. Yes, you have to interface the drive with a PC, but it is doable. Personally, I think that the 721 and DTiVo are about tied right now with each having it's good and bad points. Perhaps when the new 6.2 s/w comes out, it will help the TiVo slip ahead, but by that time the 721 could also be getting E*'s NBR, so it's hard to tell. At least I don't have my 721 nagging me everyday that the phone line is no hooked up........................


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> I think that the 721 and DTiVo are about tied right now with each having it's good and bad points. Perhaps when the new 6.2 s/w comes out, it will help the TiVo slip ahead, but by that time the 721 could also be getting E*'s NBR, so it's hard to tell.


ITA. The major drawback to DTivo for me is the achingly slow speed for just about everything. If they can get it at least close to the 721 in terms of speed, then it's no contest.


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## Bogey62 (Dec 1, 2002)

Curtis0620 said:


> Sorry, I thought we were talking about TiVo functionality and why the 30-minute buffer is meaningless.


It's cool, I started to think maybe you thought I had TiVo, but I never said that. Anywho... a 30 minute buffer is still crappy -- I make use of my 2 hour buffer occasionally and I really like it. Granted, I do time shift 98% of what I watch now with a DVR.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

dbronstein said:


> ITA. The major drawback to DTivo for me is the achingly slow speed for just about everything. If they can get it at least close to the 721 in terms of speed, then it's no contest.


I have installed several R10s recently, and I can say that while they are faster, it is still way slow compared to the 721. If there was a way to strip out some of the eye candy it would be nice. The 721 may not look as pretty, but is sure is fast.


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## newt (Aug 23, 2004)

I'm a former Dish owner and now have TiVo, and I love it. But I get the feeling that people think it 'too good' to be criticized. Here are my suggestions:
1. Don't be afraid of constructive criticism. There are lots of ways to improve TiVo. Sometimes the people who notice this the most are people who've tried another system. Don't be defensive. TiVo isn't static (at least I hope not), but can grow and improve. If no one ever complains, this will never happen.

2. Don't tell people how to watch television. TiVo fanatics are the worst at this, seeming to think that you MUST RECORD EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU WATCH IT or you are a BAD PERSON. Nonsense. Everyone is different and people have different life styles. You know nothing about me so don't tell me how I should watch television.

Some obvious constructive suggestions that people have just brought up:
1. 1/2 hour pause is not enough. How many times do people have to keep posting this? Maybe it makes no difference to you, but it clearly makes a difference to a lot of us. I guess if you've never had it (or you are in the #2 category), then you don't know what you're missing.

2. Showing the time remaining on the hard drive is critical. Workarounds are not an acceptable solution.

I'm sure there are many more. TiVo could easily put these in without impacting anyone. If we don't complain, they'll never do it. So stop getting defensive about TiVo and start saying, "yeah, maybe they SHOULD do that."


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

excellent points............


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