# The HR20 and the sad demise of DirecTV



## gusjohnson (Sep 29, 2006)

I'm a huge long time DirecTV fan. I still remember the sense of awe when I discovered "The Guide" - which we take for granted now but was an amazing advance. Soon, cable channels had their own guide but they were clunky by comparison so I stuck with DirecTV because *UI really matters* to me.

Along came Tivo/ReplayTV. I prefer Replay but both are amazing. The guide no longer mattered (the Replay guide supplants it) but DirecTV had the great sense to build their receiver with a serial port that allowed ReplayTV to control it. Replay+DirecTV was, IMHO, the best user experience out there.

The cable channels are catching up. I get Comcast for internet and their customer service has really changed for the better. No lock-in contracts, no charge to come out and fix problems. And the cable modem is better than DSL or anything else I can get so I pay a little (ok a lot) extra for it.

Here's the thing. This new *HR20 is not good*. It's not even working correctly - but even if they fix the egregious stability bugs - the UI is is just not competitive with Tivo (not to mention Replay). At best, this thing will be a clunky version of Replay/Tivo. It's a reversal of the old days when the DirecTV guide was better and cable was a pathetic immitation.

I get the feeling that DirectTV doesn't realize that this will kill them. I don't know what went on with the DirecTV/Tivo war - but DirecTV is hurting their customers by not solving this problem. I get the feeling that DirecTV is the culprit. Why? Because their new receivers don't even have serial ports. *DirecTV seems to be designing these systems in a way to lock out third parties* (recall Replay/Tivo and now Slingbox started as independent offerings).

I haven't experimented with digital cable TV, but my understanding is that because of regulation, it's quite a bit more "open" (QAM, cable cards, etc...). The new HD Tivo works with these systems and I'm assuming that other 3rd party products (including PCs) will work with them as well.

Bottom line: DirecTV used to be fanatically customer centric - but lately it doesn't seem to be treating us with much respect. The lock-out of third party devices particularly bothers me because, as an early adopter, it's going to eventually force me off the system. The poor showing of the HR20 demonstrates that DirecTV can't do it by themselves. The lack of 30second skip demonstrates that DirecTV shouldn't even try (they are too easily manipulated by the content providers).


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

The UI on the HR20 is awesome. Very slick. Very easy to use. Fast. And I'm preparing to save up some bucks to replace my Tivo's with more HR20s. Having MyVOD on the mini menu alone is by far way above anything Tivo has. Also hitting Menu for the mini menu, click Favorites and you can switch what favorite list your guide uses right there. All without losing what you are watching. I could go on about how much better this is then Tivo (and I've had a Tivo for over 6 years now).

UI is a very personal thing but the new DirecTV UI is very good. If you don't like it fine, but it is good, fast and slick.


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

HR20 blows my hughes dvr2 out of the water when it comes to menu commands. Tivo takes forever to delete. Select season passes etc. Plus i had a bad hr20 out of the box and still love it. Picture quality is much better wife even says so. She thinks all this hd stuff is a scam but can see a difference with hr20. Was using hughes hi fef receiver. Can't wait for ota to be activated. Love dvr.Never watch anything live.


----------



## Vinny (Sep 2, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> The UI on the HR20 is awesome. Very slick. Very easy to use. Fast. And I'm preparing to save up some bucks to replace my Tivo's with more HR20s. Having MyVOD on the mini menu alone is by far way above anything Tivo has. Also hitting Menu for the mini menu, click Favorites and you can switch what favorite list your guide uses right there. All without losing what you are watching. I could go on about how much better this is then Tivo (and I've had a Tivo for over 6 years now).
> 
> UI is a very personal thing but the new DirecTV UI is very good. If you don't like it fine, but it is good, fast and slick.


*I agree. My definition of "better" is how fast you can get through a task while still being able to watch your program; whether its live or recorded. Is the TIVO UI cutesy; YES....but not as efficient.

You can set up a series link (season pass) with 2 hits of the record button and not miss a second of programming. Now, thats good!*


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

The UI on the HR20 is an embarrasment. It's laid out by a software engineer and not a UI expert. Why the heck should I expect my To Do list to be under "Help and Settings"!? As documented in other threads, the UI is inconsistent in behavior and often triggers bugs that crash the DVR and lose recordings.

Functionality we took for granted on the HR10 like Season Passes, Wishlists, OTA and simple reliable recording are missing or broken in the HR20. Don't get me started on the missing 30-second skip. It's obvious to me why D* is forcing us to watch commercials, even in fast forward, and it enrages me. I buy D* service and a D* DVR to save time and watch TV the way I want to. Why are they telling me I have to watch commercials?

There are numerous threads on this forum on how to "trick" the UI into doing what we want; for simple tasks which should be expected to work on a DVR: Watching two channels at once, returning to a live buffer, getting program listings by channel, etc.

Comparing the UI on the HR10 and HR20 would be a great textbook example on how to design a user interface. Tivo got it right, for the most part, and the nameless mysterious overseas hacks responsible for the HR20 got it wrong.


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

Vinny said:


> You can set up a series link (season pass) with 2 hits of the record button and not miss a second of programming. Now, thats good!


Uh, yeah, but you need to be a mind-reader to know where two clicks creates a series link, and where two clicks cancels a recording. (oh, and the other location where two clicks creates a series link but gives you no confirmation).

That's a great UI!


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

I agree. And i actually learned some things from watchin channel 1000. Manual who needs to read the manual? lol. Hit list vod list shows up cool. hit record twice season pass . Took forever on my tivo unit. Directv has a good thing going. Kids and wife love it. Only problem is to delete all those disney shows. lol


----------



## cw18306 (Sep 23, 2006)

Vinny said:


> *I agree. My definition of "better" is how fast you can get through a task while still being able to watch your program; whether its live or recorded. Is the TIVO UI cutesy; YES....but not as efficient.
> 
> You can set up a series link (season pass) with 2 hits of the record button and not miss a second of programming. Now, thats good!*


I agree. Granted this is my 1st DVR, but man...:grin: I think its the next best thing to sliced bread!


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Made the mistake of tellin my 9 year old I'd get her a tivo for christmas. Maybe I'll give her my tivo and order another hr20.


----------



## pmayo2002 (Mar 30, 2002)

matto said:


> Uh, yeah, but you need to be a mind-reader to know where two clicks creates a series link, and where two clicks cancels a recording. (oh, and the other location where two clicks creates a series link but gives you no confirmation).
> 
> That's a great UI!


And another stupid UI -- is the guide selection -- press guide and you get another menu of filters... Duh if I needed filters I would ask...

Can any one tell me how to amend a series link to record only 1st run and not the repeats that TVIO allows??


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

menu vod click on show and hit record first run only.


----------



## jdwatson (Oct 1, 2006)

Add that one cannot use the fast-forward button while view recorded material and the irritation grows deeper.


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Well I must be blessed after my first faulty unit. I can ff and rewind and 30 second slip while viewing recorded shows.


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Sad part is my tigers lost the division and the lions are 0-3


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Was able to watch both. Oh the humanity.


----------



## dbdynsty25 (Sep 28, 2006)

Apparently someone wants to bump up their post count.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

gusjohnson said:


> Because their new receivers don't even have serial ports.


I'm pretty sure I read that the USB port provides similar functionality as the high speed data port that was on previous receivers.


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

No just want to dispell the myths about the hr20. Tired of the threads that just crap on it. Try it out first. Then write an honest review.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

jdwatson said:


> Add that one cannot use the fast-forward button while view recorded material and the irritation grows deeper.


I fast forward through recorded shows all the time. Does this happen with all of your recordings?


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Post count? After 3 plus years does it look like i care about my post count?


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

matto said:


> Why the heck should I expect my To Do list to be under "Help and Settings"!?


Your ToDo list can be very easily accessed by pressing the yellow button on the remote when you're in the VOD list. It has an indication of this right on the VOD list screen.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

I'm with Gus on this one. Before I get yelled at, I like my HR20 a LOT. It definitely is a workhorse and records HD pretty well. The unit is fairly fast at things like scrolling through the guide and the likes.

Having said that, the UI blows. It is far from intuitive, takes a zillion button presses to get anything done, and requires a myriad of menus to get to basic tasks.

I've been a ReplayTV user since 2002 and have used TiVos on and off. I don't want to get into a Replay vs. Tivo argument, but having used both, the Replay is definitely the simplest DVR to use.

I kept two of my replays when I got the HR20 just to record SD stuff. The HR20 is only for HD because, well, the interface sucks.

I wish some of the engineers working on the HR20 had played around with a replay a bit. With the replay, if you want to find the shows you have set to record you go to the replay guide. All the shows with something recorded show up at the top and shows with nothing recorded yet show up at the bottom. This means changing the options on a show is simple. You highlight the title of the show, hit select and it brings up a mini menu that allows you to delete the show recording or change the options.

Also, as far as playback of shows go, there's no comparison. With the replay, you can highlight the show, hit select, and damn! it brings up a menu that asks you if you want to play back from the current position or playback from the beginning. (You can also delete the show from here and other things.)

You can effectively use the whole DVR without ever having to navigate beyond the replay guide (recorded items and shows waiting to be recorded) and the channel guide.

Seriously, those of you who think the UI on the HR20 is good have never used a Replay. I'm not bashing on the HR20 because I'm a replay lover, I'm bashing on it because it's without a doubt one of the least intuitive interfaces I have ever used, and I evaluate software for a living.

Oh, and those four colored buttons? They go against every design principle in the history of user interface. The HR20's interface shouldn't have to tell you what to do with the buttons on the remote.

Anyhow, that's my rant. I'll give anyone who wants a demo of the Replay.


----------



## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

I love my HR20!! A few things to adjust but flat out an awesome unit. So much for the demise of D*.


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Does replay make a directv receiver? You have to work with what you have. Hr20 so far is shaping up to be a great receiver.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> I'm pretty sure I read that the USB port provides similar functionality as the high speed data port that was on previous receivers.


I can verify this one. I picked up a H20 receiver because a crafty guy came up with a USB to Serial device that converted the commands that the replay sends out to the correct format for the H20 receiver. I've been using it for about two months now and it works great.

It works with anything that sends out either the old serial commands or the new serial APG commands.

http://www.patersontech.com/

(No, it's not my company, I'm just a satisfied customer.)


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

melduforx said:


> I can verify this one. I picked up a H20 receiver because a crafty guy came up with a USB to Serial device that converted the commands that the replay sends out to the correct format for the H20 receiver. I've been using it for about two months now and it works great.
> 
> It works with anything that sends out either the old serial commands or the new serial APG commands.
> 
> ...


Thanks for confirming


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

love my hr20... If they get the ota and a few more bugs out of it I might go buy another!


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

dondude32 said:


> Does replay make a directv receiver? You have to work with what you have. Hr20 so far is shaping up to be a great receiver.


While it's true you have to work with what you have, it doesn't mean you have to think it's great.

Like I said, the HR20 gets the job done for recording HD, but that's about all it does.

The HR20 is shaping up to be a _decent_ receiver. It hardly goes above and beyond the basics of recording and playing back shows.

The HR20 is the reason I decided to finally go HD and I'm glad I did. It hasn't let me down yet (knock on wood), and I've recorded a decent amount of stuff. Everything has played back just fine and I've only had two lockups so far. I'm being very patient with the thing because I know there are plenty of software updates in its future and I'm glad the released it. I'd rather be an un-official beta tester who can record HD then stuck on the sidelines for another year while DirecTV worked out all the kinks.

Am I happy to have the thing? Definitely.

Does the HR20 need a complete interface overhaul? Without a doubt. Anybody who thinks differently needs to take a glance at some other DVR offerings.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

cw18306 said:


> I agree. Granted this is my 1st DVR, but man...:grin: I think its the next best thing to sliced bread!


Couldn't argee more. It is an great unit. Not to mention it is above and beyond any other providers HD recorders.


----------



## Vinny (Sep 2, 2006)

dondude32 said:


> Sad part is my tigers lost the division and the lions are 0-3


*Sadder news is they play the Yankees in first round; which should be the Tigers only playoff series......sorry to get off topic.*


----------



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

We'll see if pitching beats hittin? Leyland f'd up and let division go.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

melduforx said:


> Having said that, the UI blows. It is far from intuitive, takes a zillion button presses to get anything done, and requires a myriad of menus to get to basic tasks


Examples please. I find nothing more then 1-2 button presses away.



> With the replay, if you want to find the shows you have set to record you go to the replay guide. All the shows with something recorded show up at the top and shows with nothing recorded yet show up at the bottom. This means changing the options on a show is simple. You highlight the title of the show, hit select and it brings up a mini menu that allows you to delete the show recording or change the options.


Sooooo easy to get to. Simply hit the list button. Bam, it's your MyVOD with all your recorded shows. Hit the Yellow button you're at your ToDo list. Wow, that's pretty complicated. 

Even faster, hit your Menu button, click MyVOD and it drops down a mini menu of your recorded shows. Simply choose one and it plays automatically. Soooo, simple



> Also, as far as playback of shows go, there's no comparison. With the replay, you can highlight the show, hit select, and damn! it brings up a menu that asks you if you want to play back from the current position or playback from the beginning. (You can also delete the show from here and other things.)


Same on the HR20. Only thing missing is a play from the beginning option. Simply click the List button and select your program to get options.



> You can effectively use the whole DVR without ever having to navigate beyond the replay guide (recorded items and shows waiting to be recorded) and the channel guide.


Pretty much the same with the HR20.



> Seriously, those of you who think the UI on the HR20 is good have never used a Replay. I'm not bashing on the HR20 because I'm a replay lover, I'm bashing on it because it's without a doubt one of the least intuitive interfaces I have ever used, and I evaluate software for a living.


Replay definately had a good UI. But just because it did doesn't mean the HR20 isn't. By the way, most people compare it to Tivo since there has never been a Replay DirecTV box.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

> Examples please. I find nothing more then 1-2 button presses away.


OK, a zillion, no. Too many, yes. How many button presses does it take to change how you want a show recorded? To get to the channel guide?



> Sooooo easy to get to. Simply hit the list button. Bam, it's your MyVOD with all your recorded shows. Hit the Yellow button you're at your ToDo list. Wow, that's pretty complicated.
> 
> Even faster, hit your Menu button, click MyVOD and it drops down a mini menu of your recorded shows. Simply choose one and it plays automatically. Soooo, simple.


Uh, kinda simple. Except how do you get to shows you haven't recorded yet and aren't in the ToDo list (because it hasn't been populated yet or there are no recordings in the next two weeks)?

Hit list which brings up my VOD. Then hit the little yellow button that has no label on your remote which brings up the to do list. From there you can hit the left arrow then the down arrow three times to go to the prioritizer. (Prioritizer??? Oh yeah, that's where the list of my shows should be where I can change the record option).

But wait, we're not done yet.

Then hit select. This brings up another screen where you can hit Record... (Record??? I've already told it I want to record, but OK...)

Then and ONLY then can you change the freaking recording options.

Yes, that's "soooooo simple"!!!! Why didn't I think of it? That's eight button presses just to _get to the screen_ where you can change the settings.

Oh, and what if you want to actually see what you've told the thing to record?

As far as I can tell there is no single list of what you've requested of the box to record. Sure there's the ToDo list, but that only gets populated at specific intervals. Sure there's the "Prioritizer" list, but that seems to be only for Series Links.

Where do I go to change the options on a single record? For that you have to go to the ToDo list, which is ordered by time, so hopefully you can remember WHEN that single show record was.

If someone can prove me wrong on this, I'd love it. Seriously, I'd love for there to be some consolodated recording list hidden behind six button presses.



> Replay definately had a good UI. But just because it did doesn't mean the HR20 isn't. By the way, most people compare it to Tivo since there has never been a Replay DirecTV box.


I'm not really sure why you can't compare the new directv box to a replay. I used directv and replay together for five years without any problems. Just because directv never had a replay interfaced box doesn't mean you can't compare the two.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

melduforx,

While I understand your frustration with accessing some of the menus and functions, most of the ones you mention are ones that most people won't access that often. I myself have only gone into the prioritizer 2 times in the 3 weeks that I've had my HR20. I agree though that it would be nice if you didn't have to go through as many menus to get it. Also I agree that there definitely should be a master list of scheduled recordings regardless of if they're Series Links or a one time recording.


----------



## gusjohnson (Sep 29, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Examples please. I find nothing more then 1-2 button presses away.


The fact that you have to hit 2 buttons to get to the guide is a bad start! In my house, we call it the "GuideGuide". Seriously - is anybody defending *that*? Does anybody think that a team that came up with *that* has any hope of designing a great UI?

melduforx gives some good examples.

I would add that since the device is so bad at giving you feedback (like when I hit record twice it doesn't always show me the series icon) that I'm constantly having to double check my work - which adds up to a lot of presses. (and even that doesn't work because on several occasions my future recordings have simply disappeared, without notice)

And... it's not even the number of presses, but the fact that you have to use so many different buttons to traverse screens in multiple directions (over and down and select and over etc...) that is incredibly... clunky.

Then again... the people on this forum put up with the UI on... this forum - so it's a pretty hardened bunch.


----------



## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

okay, go buy a replay box and use it. Did they force you to take this box?


----------



## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

gusjohnson said:


> The fact that you have to hit 2 buttons to get to the guide is a bad start!


You don't hit 2 buttons, you hit the Guide button twice. Is that really such an inconvenience?

I have to hit the TiVo button twice to get to "Now Playing", but it's no big deal. I know how to do it and I just do it.


----------



## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

my point is this:

Yes, the UI's are different from what you have used in the past
Yes, there are some things that may be more difficult to niavigate
Yes, there are some things that are easier to navigate.
Yes, change is difficult
Yes, you should get use to it. I did.

You get out of it, what you put into it. If you want to be frustrated, be that way. There are a lot of happy people who like this interface. I though T* was easy on the UI, I find this easy, but I am easy going.


----------



## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

I like the UI of the HR20 (even though I don't have one) because it's the same as the other DirecTV branded recievers. 

But even so, we will be seeing an overhaul of the UI in 2007. I can't wait to see how it looks.


----------



## freestyle (Oct 2, 2006)

bidger said:


> You don't hit 2 buttons, you hit the Guide button twice. Is that really such an inconvenience?
> 
> I have to hit the TiVo button twice to get to "Now Playing", but it's no big deal. I know how to do it and I just do it.


Well, you could just go straight to the now playing list with one click too.

So far I've found the HR20 to be OK... nothing to get totally upset about I don't think.

But I agree that I don't really get the business model of limiting your customers to no options when it comes to their personal recording devices... They should be focusing on content.

Our HR20 just replaced our Replay TV (Series 1) in the bedroom. We still have the Tivo SAT-T60 in the living room.

They really all do have their +s and -s... Hopefully DirecTV will be responsive to feature requests and software fixes... It is a bit frustrating that there doesn't seem to be a good place for customer feedback like there would be with the other hardware makers.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

pappys said:


> okay, go buy a replay box and use it. Did they force you to take this box?


I don't think the point is that they forced us to use this box. I wanted this box and I wanted it badly. You'd have to pry it from my cold dead hands to take it away from me. I've said it before and I'll say it again: this box records and plays back HD and _it's not bad._

You see, you can complain about things you like. I just think that with a bit of effort they can make it much better.

To the guy who said he eventually got used to hitting the tivo button twice, did you ever question why you had to get used to it? User interfaces shouldn't have to be "broken in" or "gotten used to".

For example, where would you put the default recording options? If it were me I'd put them in the setup menu. Instead they are in a pop-up menu that only happens on one screen (that takes six button presses to get to).

You shouldn't have to get used to simple things. If the point of this DVR is to reinvent the TV experience (and that is the point of a DVR), then it should be as simple as watching tv.

To everyone who's defending this box like it's their newborn child, IT'S A SATELLITE RECEIVER. If it has flaws (and it does have flaws), you won't hurt the feelings of the HR20 if you mention them. Hell, if the software engineers who are designing the UI are reading this, they shouldn't be offended. There's good stuff in this box -- it just needs more organizaiton.


----------



## 911medic (Aug 28, 2006)

I find the HR20's interface FAR more intuitive and user-friendly than the Tivo UI on the HR10, and the more I use it, the more I like it. My wife LOVES that it's so simple to find the "Family & Kids" filter for the guide on--yes, I'm saying it--the first press of the guide button. Oh, heavens! You have to press the same button again to get to the guide?! Sorry, but some of the whining about this particular "inconvenience" is getting old. It's not like you have to push one button then search for a second button to get to the guide. _*You don't even have to move your finger off the button.*_ You just push it twice to skip the filter page. It's probably something they'll 'fix' in a future software update, and even though I don't mind it the way it is, I won't be on here posting how horrible it is now that I'll have to push the same button twice to get to the filter screen.

While the stability issues are a PITA for many (I have only experienced a few, relatively minor inconveniences, but I know some are having more major issues), it's a new piece of hardware/software and SOME problems are to be expected.

Change is difficult, and the new UI is going to take some getting used to. But this crap about the user interface of the HR20 "killing" DirecTV...please. Get real.

Their customer service, on the other hand, just might. But that's a topic for another thread.


----------



## mrshermanoaks (Aug 27, 2006)

pappys said:


> okay, go buy a replay box and use it. Did they force you to take this box?


yeah, kinda, by not offering a HD ReplayTV. 

I agree as a longtime ReplayTV owner that this interface takes a little getting used to. It's not terrible (except for the GuideGuide problem), but some of it seems a little backwards to us.

And I'm still keeping my 3 Replays for standard def stuff until they offer multi-room viewing. Replays have had this for years, as have TiVos, it's absolutely ridiculous for a brand new platform to not offer this.

PS- Never mattered that there wasn't a DirecTV/Replay combo box. My Replays are all connected to low-end, serial controlled DTV receivers of which I have *never* even seen the interface. They are, in all practicality, combo units.


----------



## gusjohnson (Sep 29, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> UI is a very personal thing but the new DirecTV UI is very good. If you don't like it fine, but it is good, fast and slick.


Yes, it's personal which is why my point is that DirecTV should be enabling 3rd party devices rather than building a closed system. However, the post about the USB port being functional (I thought it was not) moderates my view, somewhat. Anybody know what comes out of the HDMI port? Is it possible to build a 3rd party PVR that uses this?


----------



## 911medic (Aug 28, 2006)

I believe the USB port is currently powered, but not really "functional." You can hook up a USB powered fan, for instance to it, but hooking up a USB external HDD won't be recognized by the unit...yet. And I think there's an external SATA port on the back of the HR20, isn't there (for 'future use')?


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

The USB port on the H20 is active for channel changing. I doubt you could use the HDMI port for feeding another PVR as I don't know of another PVR that accepts HDMI input. That's the problem with HD recorders -- the content providers are so scared that the streams are going to get in the wild (so to speak) that they've been completely locked down.

The HD Tivo doesn't have any digital inputs except for the cablecards. All the PC HD DVRs encode OTA HD.

So.... If you want anything other than OTA HD (or can't get it) then you're stuck with your provider's box, for the most part.


----------



## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

freestyle said:


> Well, you could just go straight to the now playing list with one click too.


That's true, but I was thinking of the standalone TiVos I've used.

ETA: I've been aching for a new DVR. I've been using the TiVo interface for 6 years and it's long in the tooth as far as I'm concerned. I just want the HR20 to prove it's reliability to me and enable dual buffers and I'll be good to go.


----------



## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

jonaswan2 said:


> But even so, we will be seeing an overhaul of the UI in 2007. I can't wait to see how it looks.


How do you know this?


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

melduforx said:


> User interfaces shouldn't have to be "broken in" or "gotten used to".


I don't know, when I switched from Windows 98 to XP I hated it. But now, Guess what?, I have "gotten used to" it.


----------



## gusjohnson (Sep 29, 2006)

911medic said:


> I find the HR20's interface FAR more intuitive and user-friendly than the Tivo UI on the HR10, and the more I use it, the more I like it.


I'm really suprised to hear how much people like the UI. I agree with that there are taste issues that vary from person to person or that just take getting used to. But I think there are also fundamental weaknesses with basic, core functionality.

Take navigating within a recording, for example. Forget about 30sec slip/skip. I really miss skip but let's not rehash that. Jumping around is a big pain. On the ReplayTV, you can jump to any location directly. Key in 45 <jump> and you are at the 45th minute of the program. Type 9 skip and you jump ahead 9 minutes. 4 "<-" and you go back 4 minutes. etc... Key in "return to live" and you are instantly returned to live TV with a nice feedback graphic that says "live". FF and RW goes 1x, 2x, 4x, 16x, 20x. In short, moving around a recording (or buffered TV) is very precise and very convenient.

I don't see how to do this on the HR20. The ff/rw doesn't go fast enough. There appears to be no way to random access jump into a program. The ff-hold and rw-hold don't seem to work all the time and they jump in clunky 15 minute increments when they do.

As for the "guide guide" ... I agree, the fact you can use the same button makes it not a big issue. I mention it only to point out how poorly thought out the UI is. I'm much more bothered by the fact that there isn't a way to "Play from the beginning" or "Play from where you left off". Or that I can't seem to control "series" recording very precisely (Replay lets you pick the days, times, etc... ) .

There are some things that I like. The Todo List ("list" "yellow" as I affectionally call it) allows one to see what's scheduled sorted by time (not easy to do on Replay) and the mini-guide is very nice.



911medic said:


> But this crap about the user interface of the HR20 "killing" DirecTV...please. Get real.
> 
> Their customer service, on the other hand, just might. But that's a topic for another thread.


For most people in well served urban areas, cable is a more straightforward option than Satellite TV. I moved many times in the last few years and it was always easier just to get cable. However, I fought to get satellite because it worked better. The HR20 won't kill DirecTV by itself. But if it's a sign of things to come, it won't be long before the competition catches up and we'll ask ourselves why bother?


----------



## keithw1975 (Oct 1, 2006)

But my HR20 does have the 30 second skip. My second gen tivo did NOT have the 30 second skip. Tivo seemed like it was simpler and less informative. I love the HR20 and don't miss my Tivo at all except that it let me jump to the beginning or end of a show with one click. Can't seem to do that on my HR20

Keith


----------



## wmccain (Jan 9, 2006)

melduforx said:


> I picked up a H20 receiver because a crafty guy came up with a USB to Serial device that converted the commands that the replay sends out to the correct format for the H20 receiver. I've been using it for about two months now and it works great.


The old "APG" command set is implemented on the USB ports, using a USB-to-serial adapter, and at a higher speed (115200 bps versus 9600 bps on the models with RS232 ports).

At this time, only the D11 and H20 (non-DVR) models support the commands. DirecTV has committed to support serial control of the R15 and HR20 but it isn't implemented yet. In fact, they announced a rack-mountable HR20P "Pro" model geared to the custom-installer market, and specifically stated that it will be controllable via a serial command interface. However, the "APG" command set has no provision for dual tuners, let alone recording and playback, so it is likely they plan to extend the command set when it gets implemented on the DVR models.

Bill


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

gusjohnson said:


> Anybody know what comes out of the HDMI port? Is it possible to build a 3rd party PVR that uses this?


Not easily. Video off HDMI is DVI-D, encrypted and authenticated with HDCP. Chipset vendors are very tight about selling, and selling a product that speaks HDCP requires you to sign legal agreements restricting functionality. You'll never see a device that accepts HDMI and outputs component video, for instance.

And, of course, inside the United States, its pretty much illegal to even discuss ways to defeat this garbage, even if all you want to do is build your own DVR.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

gusjohnson said:


> I'm really suprised to hear how much people like the UI. I agree with that there are taste issues that vary from person to person or that just take getting used to. But I think there are also fundamental weaknesses with basic, core functionality.


I does take some getting used to. The UI on the H20 is exactly the same and I hated it when I first used it. Pressing guide twice to bring the guide up, I still don't like that (should be an option). But after using it for almost a year I have gotten used to it. Now I automatically press guide twice. So I can see where some of you are comming from. It will grow on you eventually.


----------



## dbdynsty25 (Sep 28, 2006)

That's the bad part of the guide guide thing...it will not be removed or even an option. The H20 has been doing it for over a year and they haven't changed that. Why would they do it just because a new receiver came out? They obviously thought it was a good idea to include it in the first place. That doesn't mean it's not the dumbest idea ever, it just means that I think we're screwed in that regard.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

dbdynsty25 said:


> That's the bad part of the guide guide thing...it will not be removed or even an option. The H20 has been doing it for over a year and they haven't changed that. Why would they do it just because a new receiver came out? They obviously thought it was a good idea to include it in the first place. That doesn't mean it's not the dumbest idea ever, it just means that I think we're screwed in that regard.


Yea when I first used it on the H20 I thought, cool, I can get all of the HD channels listed witout having to search for them. But after setting up my favorites and just using my own list i quickly saw that I had no need for it. But I will tell you this, my wife does use it to look for the kids channels when my children want to watch tv.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

melduforx said:


> OK, a zillion, no. Too many, yes. How many button presses does it take to change how you want a show recorded? To get to the channel guide?
> 
> Uh, kinda simple. Except how do you get to shows you haven't recorded yet and aren't in the ToDo list (because it hasn't been populated yet or there are no recordings in the next two weeks)?
> 
> ...


Menu | Select MyVOD | Select "go there" | Select your show | Record | Change what you want. Sorry that so's hard. Not much different then the Tivo it's replacing actually.

Prioritizer is Menu | Help & Settings | Prioritizer. Sorry, 3 button clicks.


----------



## jdwatson (Oct 1, 2006)

One of the things I miss about my Sony TiVo (with DirecTV tuner) box is that when using FF it would back up a little bit (how much depending on how fast I was FFing), so that you wouldn't have to be perfect with the "play" button.

I also miss being able to FF/RR & Pause in recorded programs. Hitting "Advance" & "RePlay" to navigate thru recorded material is tedious.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

jdwatson said:


> One of the things I miss about my Sony TiVo (with DirecTV tuner) box is that when using FF it would back up a little bit (how much depending on how fast I was FFing), so that you wouldn't have to be perfect with the "play" button.


That's a Tivo patent and thus why it's not in the HR20. You can simulate it by hitting the replay button coming out of a FF instead of play. I find usually 2-3 hits of the replay button simulates the Tivo "kick back". You could also program this to a macro button on a universal remote so it's only one click.


----------



## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Menu | Select MyVOD | Select "go there" | Select your show | Record | Change what you want. Sorry that so's hard. Not much different then the Tivo it's replacing actually.


hmm..it is at least that many clicks to change recording options on the HR10 or SD40...Tivo, arrow down to change recording options (at least 4th), Right, down to program you want, RIGHT, DOWN to change record options, blah blah blah.


----------



## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

User interfaces shouldn't have to be "broken in" or "gotten used to".

You shouldn't have to get used to simple things. If the point of this DVR is to reinvent the TV experience (and that is the point of a DVR), then it should be as simple as watching tv.
[/QUOTE]

I call your bluff. I saw another post about upgrading from WIN98 to XP, it is different. Yet we all have done it. It took time. It takes time to learn any new computer program. This is what this is.

You didn't learn MS Word, Excel overnight, you didn't learn replay overnight, you didn't larn TIVO and its great autocorrect overnight, but you learned how to adapt.

Learn how to adapt to HR20. Make a game out of it, how fast can you double ckick (like your computer mouse) the guide button to make it get to the guide?:lol:


----------



## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

One of the main things I miss from the TIVO boxes i the ability to go from item to item in a list when you are on the "details" of one of the items using the page up and down buttons. Seems like I am constantly "backing" out of one thing to be able to go to another item.

And I wouldn't mind the guide-guide thing os much if in that list of filterrs you had your own custom made filters/favorites (and their combos) available. Switching to another favorite from the guide is a pain unless there is a shortcut I am missing.


----------



## gusbuf (Aug 20, 2006)

The HR20 software is so loaded with flaws it is a joke. My Highes DVR40 Directivo unit is far superior. Sure, the Directivo software has a delay in many commands and procedures and may be a bit slow, but it works properly, perfectly, every time. I have had my DVR40 for 4 years and it has been 99.9% problem free since I bought it. Yeah, the HR20 is fast, but the software sucks. It cancels scheduled recordings for no reason. It creates double entries into the prioritizer. The FF and RW buttons work on about 10% of recorded shows. The user-friendliness of the software is non-existent.


----------



## chdwil (Sep 6, 2006)

gusjohnson said:


> I'm a huge long time DirecTV fan. I still remember the sense of awe when I discovered "The Guide" - which we take for granted now but was an amazing advance. Soon, cable channels had their own guide but they were clunky by comparison so I stuck with DirecTV because *UI really matters* to me.
> 
> Along came Tivo/ReplayTV. I prefer Replay but both are amazing. The guide no longer mattered (the Replay guide supplants it) but DirecTV had the great sense to build their receiver with a serial port that allowed ReplayTV to control it. Replay+DirecTV was, IMHO, the best user experience out there.
> 
> ...


FACT, as long as DirecTv has the contract with the NFL for televising of non local games, they will always be one of the major players in the market.

Can you even begin to fathom the money DirecTv is making from businesses that have contracted with them to air games in local communities. It is not just a major advantage for them, it is a stranglehold.


----------



## 911medic (Aug 28, 2006)

gusjohnson said:


> I'm really suprised to hear how much people like the UI. I agree with that there are taste issues that vary from person to person or that just take getting used to. But I think there are also fundamental weaknesses with basic, core functionality.
> 
> Take navigating within a recording, for example. Forget about 30sec slip/skip. I really miss skip but let's not rehash that. Jumping around is a big pain. On the ReplayTV, you can jump to any location directly. Key in 45 <jump> and you are at the 45th minute of the program. Type 9 skip and you jump ahead 9 minutes. 4 "<-" and you go back 4 minutes. etc... Key in "return to live" and you are instantly returned to live TV with a nice feedback graphic that says "live". FF and RW goes 1x, 2x, 4x, 16x, 20x. In short, moving around a recording (or buffered TV) is very precise and very convenient.
> 
> ...


Gus, I appreciate your well thought out reply and clarification of your issues with the HR20. It's refreshing to see someone respond in this way vs. just flaming someone who disagrees with their POV.

I agree with you there are things they could do to make navigation within recorded programs more user-friendly. I've never used ReplayTV, but it sounds like they had some nice features. My old E* DVR had a much faster FF/REW ability (it was something like the figures you mentioned ReplayTV has), which made going thru long recordings much quicker. It also had "Resume Play" or "Start Over" features from menus of programs you'd already started watching, which I do miss as well.

There is no doubt the HR20 software is a work in progress, and will probably never be as good or feature-rich as we'd all like. But overall, I don't see it as the first pebble in an avalanche leading to DirecTV's demise. Their God-awful customer service is a FAR larger issue in my eyes. I only wish to never have to call them again, as it's going to cause me to have a stroke at some point, I'm sure of it.

On the other hand, I was extremely frustrated w/cable TV before I switched to satellite. Poor picture quality on some of my favorite channels (snowy/grainy picture on FX? Can't have that! Gotta be able to watch "The Shield" and enjoy it!), which multiple service calls were unable to resolve. And this was with "digital" cable, which I didn't find out until after the fact was only truly digital on channels 100 and up (mostly channels I didn't watch).

Anyway, here's hoping they keep the improvements coming to their flagship receiver, and I appreciate the discussion!


----------



## jedster (Sep 20, 2006)

chdwil said:


> FACT, as long as DirecTv has the contract with the NFL for televising of non local games, they will always be one of the major players in the market.
> 
> Can you even begin to fathom the money DirecTv is making from businesses that have contracted with them to air games in local communities. It is not just a major advantage for them, it is a stranglehold.


I've always felt this to be true, as a consumer -- and therefore obviously as an observer. But let's take a look at it from an objective perspective.

After the bye weeks are done with, each week there are 16 games.

On Sundays, every local market gets 4-5 games (2 in the morning, 1 or 2 in the afternoon, and Sunday night football).

On Thursday, Saturday, and Monday, there are 3 more games.

So each week, you get a total of 7 or 8 of the 16 games.

So NFLST gets you an extra 8 or 9 games each week, assuming each game is broadcast w/o blackouts. For the most part, those won't be "the best" games because NBC gets to select the best game for Sunday Night Football and each network will pick the best game for the most people in each area.

In other words, NFLST is becoming more valuable for the niche fan, of which there are many. It's less important now that the Sunday night game is the marquee game.

Take me for example -- my time has been on free TV here in Vegas each week of the season. Their next game MIGHT (but probably won't) be the first game that I need NFLST to watch. I know for sure that 3 of their remaining 12 games will be on other channels and am reasonably certain that 4 or 5 more will be aired (and probably more). So that means that at least 11 of 16 games (and probably more like 13) will be aired locally.

In other words, I probably shouldn't have spent so much on D* NFLST. Next season I doubt I will. And for anyone who doesn't have an out of market team that they follow, NFLST is just a luxury.


----------



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

I occasionally try to rationalize that I do not need/want Sunday Ticket any more until the actual Sundays come up and THEN I realize/remember why I love this thing...for example, this Sunday in NYC, the ONLY game on local TV at 1PM was the Jets/Colts and then at 4PM Bengals/Patriots and Lions/Rams -- that was it and this was better than usual!! Typically, we get only 2 games, Jets/someone and Giants/someone and thanks to CBS, many of the Jets games are NOT in HD!!!!

For now, its worth it to me for Sunday Ticket!


----------



## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

matto said:


> The UI on the HR20 is an embarrasment. It's laid out by a software engineer and not a UI expert. Why the heck should I expect my To Do list to be under "Help and Settings"!?


Althought I have grown to prefer the UI on the HR20, I couldn't agree more. D* really should better thing the layout of where items are placed on the menu. Some item placements make absolutely no sense.

Unfortunately for D*, a well thought out and designed UI is almost more important to get right from the get go. As once the UI has been distributed to clients, users tend to get used to where things are despite whether those things really reside in ideal places or not. So, it is very difficult to move around where things are after the fact as you will inevitably *** off a certain segment of your user population.

When faced with making changes to the layout of a UI, you are sometimes between a rock and a hard place.


----------



## gusjohnson (Sep 29, 2006)

perilous said:


> I occasionally try to rationalize that I do not need/want Sunday Ticket any more until the actual Sundays come up and THEN I realize/remember why I love this thing...for example, this Sunday in NYC, the ONLY game on local TV at 1PM was the Jets/Colts and then at 4PM Bengals/Patriots and Lions/Rams -- that was it and this was better than usual!! Typically, we get only 2 games, Jets/someone and Giants/someone and thanks to CBS, many of the Jets games are NOT in HD!!!!
> 
> For now, its worth it to me for Sunday Ticket!


Doesn't it drive you crazy that the NFL is cashing in so effectively on it's own obnoxious TV rules? I mean... we're actually grateful for Sunday Ticket... to get to pay exobitant fees to see the teams we loyally support... commercials and all. *that*, combined with the outrageous but commonly accepted notion that my local affiliate basically *owns me* ... it's a sad situation.


----------



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

So true...


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

pappys said:


> hmm..it is at least that many clicks to change recording options on the HR10 or SD40...Tivo, arrow down to change recording options (at least 4th), Right, down to program you want, RIGHT, DOWN to change record options, blah blah blah.


OK, see, but what I'm saying is that it's two click to get to it in the Replay world. I know it's hard for you guys to imagine anything other than directv equipment, but it does exist.

Just because the tivo was suckily organized doesn't mean that the HR20 (which is less suckily organized than a tivo) is great.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

pappys said:


> I call your bluff. I saw another post about upgrading from WIN98 to XP, it is different. Yet we all have done it. It took time. It takes time to learn any new computer program. This is what this is.
> 
> You didn't learn MS Word, Excel overnight, you didn't learn replay overnight, you didn't larn TIVO and its great autocorrect overnight, but you learned how to adapt.
> 
> Learn how to adapt to HR20. Make a game out of it, how fast can you double ckick (like your computer mouse) the guide button to make it get to the guide?:lol:


Sorry man, but I'm double calling the bluff of the bluff you're calling.

Software should be intuitive, _especially_ software that's designed to be used on an "appliance". This is the reason the general population is intimidated by these devices, because they don't make sense.

That's why Microsoft Word (and this user forum) have things like the big bold "B", which means bold, instead of pressing weird key combinations or inserting tags. This would be the intuitive part. You see the big bold "B" and you think, "Why that must make my text *bold*," and you'd be right.

But if you were using the HR20 and you said, "Oh where can I change my recording options?" I'm sure you wouldn't think, "Prioritizer!"

I did, in fact, learn the Replay overnight. Sorry. With enough screwing around I learned the HR20 in one night as well (I mean, it is just a DVR). It just makes a lot less sense than it should.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Prioritizer is Menu | Help & Settings | Prioritizer. Sorry, 3 button clicks.


Really? I'm not in front of my HR20 right now, but I don't remember it being there, and neither does the manual. (Under help and settings there is no mention of prioritizer. In fact, the manual mentions the prioritzer only _once_.)

I'm not saying that I'm incapable of pressing the buttons -- I'm saying that parts of the UI are not intuitive. If you disagree with that, then I really hope you don't design any software (at least any software I buy).

Again, everybody seems to be comparing this to Tivo and saying, "It's not as bad as...," or "It's basically as good as..." I'd like to hear from a single ReplayTV user who says that.


----------



## reh523 (Sep 7, 2006)

dondude32 said:


> Post count? After 3 plus years does it look like i care about my post count?


:biggthump

(I did that to increase my post count)


----------



## 911medic (Aug 28, 2006)

melduforx said:


> I'm saying that parts of the UI are not intuitive. If you disagree with that, then I really hope you don't design any software (at least any software I buy).


I'm thinking (and saying) that you need to take a deep breath and realize that it's a brand new product that is far from mature. Despite this, I *do* find it intuitive, but perhaps my idea of intuitive is different than yours (and lucky for you, I don't design software, just use it--a lot) . And even my wife, who is far from technologically savvy, finds this box easy to use--even more so than Tivo.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

911medic said:


> I'm thinking (and saying) that you need to take a deep breath and realize that it's a brand new product that is far from mature. Despite this, I *do* find it intuitive, but perhaps my idea of intuitive is different than yours (and lucky for you, I don't design software, just use it--a lot) . And even my wife, who is far from technologically savvy, finds this box easy to use--even more so than Tivo.


Holy freaking jebus! I keep saying time and time again I don't hate this thing, and I'm more than willing to be an unoffical beta tester for the unit. I've beta tested enough software and hardware to be quite patient with growing pains.

I can't wait to get home and see all the great shows I've recorded in HD on my HR20. Seriously can't wait.

Turning a blind eye to things that can be made better, _especially_ since it's "far from mature" as you said, doesn't help anybody.

Easier to use than Tivo != The Greatest DVR Ever (which the HR20 ain't)

Easier to use than Tivo == Better than Tivo (which the HR20 is)


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Menu | Select MyVOD | Select "go there" | Select your show | Record | Change what you want. Sorry that so's hard. Not much different then the Tivo it's replacing actually.


This only works for shows you have recorded. My gripe is trying to do anything with shows you haven't recorded yet or that you've recorded and deleted.


----------



## 911medic (Aug 28, 2006)

melduforx said:


> Holy freaking jebus! I keep saying time and time again I don't hate this thing, and I'm more than willing to be an unoffical beta tester for the unit. I've beta tested enough software and hardware to be quite patient with growing pains.
> 
> I can't wait to get home and see all the great shows I've recorded in HD on my HR20. Seriously can't wait.
> 
> ...


Easy, there. Glad you're willing to be patient with the unit. I'm not quite sure what I said that the rest of your post is responding to, though. But it's late, and I'm pretty fried from work and homework and the Vicodin I'm on, so I may have missed it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> The UI on the HR20 is awesome. Very slick. Very easy to use. Fast. And I'm preparing to save up some bucks to replace my Tivo's with more HR20s. Having MyVOD on the mini menu alone is by far way above anything Tivo has. Also hitting Menu for the mini menu, click Favorites and you can switch what favorite list your guide uses right there. All without losing what you are watching. I could go on about how much better this is then Tivo (and I've had a Tivo for over 6 years now).
> 
> UI is a very personal thing but the new DirecTV UI is very good. If you don't like it fine, but it is good, fast and slick.


Totally agree on all your points.

The Tivo tree-huggers just can't let go, can they? :eek2:


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Totally agree on all your points.
> 
> The Tivo tree-huggers just can't let go, can they? :eek2:


Let's be honest here. If the HR-20 had worked out of the box, like Tivo did six years ago when I first connected it and started recording with ease, most Tivo users would have gladly given the HR-20's GUI the benefit of the doubt. But because the HR-20 has been so dysfunctional for so many people on this forum (and I can only assume not on this forum too), that creates an even stronger devotion to Tivo's interface - mainly because it worked, which meant people had positive feelings toward it as a product.

It all comes down to giving people what they want - a product that works. Debating GUI's is interesting, but I would guess that most of us, had the HR-20 worked without all the fits and starts outlined on these pages, we'd gladly be saying goodbye to Tivo.

And that, HDTVfan, _is_ an opinion, but I believe a valid one. The frustration resulting from a product that doesn't work (after using one that did for the same thing) can create hostility to that new product on several fronts that probably wouldn't exist if it worked right in the first place. I can only speak for myself, but I would gladly "let go" of Tivo if the HR-20 worked for me and the majority of D* subs, especially in that one key functional area, reliably recording TV programs and ensuring they exist until the user deletes them.

In fact, I don't even use the Tivo we still have hooked up to our main TV, that's my wife's machine now. I just want to get back to the joys of time-shifting without all the hassles, mistakes, screw-ups and frustrations. Makes sense, right?


----------



## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

Mine has been spotless out of the box for almost 4 weeks. Long time Tivo guy but I like the HR20 better. Its not perfect and has some things to polish but I think its a fantastic DVR and great start for D*. I understand folks have issues but I just think folks love to complain. I love the HR20. I dont post much here but I think there needs to be positive posts to counter all the negatives.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

brewer4 said:


> Mine has been spotless out of the box for almost 4 weeks. Long time Tivo guy but I like the HR20 better. Its not perfect and has some things to polish but I think its a fantastic DVR and great start for D*. I understand folks have issues but I just think folks love to complain. I love the HR20. I dont post much here but I think there needs to be positive posts to counter all the negatives.


Agree Brewer about the HR-20, it's pretty great when it works. And while I do believe some people just like to complain, it's not fair to dismiss people who have had real issues as "complainers." I'll wager that if your HR-20 started suffering from some of the basic problems people have reported here, you'd join the list of complainers. In fact, I hope your machine keeps working as it has. But don't be too smug. This forum is littered with posts from people who started out their posts saying, "My HR-20 performed perfectly out of the box, until the latest software download...(fill in the blanks with a new issue)."


----------



## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

If the ease of use for the wife is any sort of benchmark, the HR20 is a super success in my house.

My wife is not stupid and learns how to use any equipment we have--but I have to teach her. Not so with the HR20. She was showing me how to do things for the first few days, before I had time to play with it. 

That is a first in my household.


----------



## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

Dont disagree at all. I just think there are 2 folks out there. Folks with real issues and complainers. I hate the fact that the complainers end up drowing out folks with real issues.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

brewer4 said:


> Dont disagree at all. I just think there are 2 folks out there. Folks with real issues and complainers. I hate the fact that the complainers end up drowing out folks with real issues.


Fair enough.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> Let's be honest here. If the HR-20 had worked out of the box, like Tivo did six years ago when I first connected it and started recording with ease, most Tivo users would have gladly given the HR-20's GUI the benefit of the doubt.


OK - let's be honest - the fact of the matter is that it took 14 Tivo DVR updates (HR10-250) to get to where the HR20 is today with 4 - and the HR20 is a far more advanced bit of equipment (MPEG4 support for one).

Users those many years ago were also far less trained on using a DVR, had less PC and Web skillsets, and the like - today's users are plainly more knowledgible and accepting of something past the 1990's Crayola-level menus and operating system in the old Tivo boxes. The need for dumbed-down graphical interfaces has been replaced by more advanced / streamlined GUI's like the one found in the HR20. I can do everything I need, a few new things I never did before, and have yet to read the manual - my wife likewise.

If someone can't operate and HR20 as easily as an older Tivo, they probably don't know what an IPOD or DVD burner are either. Welcome to the new demographics of users in the market - which is what the HR20 is designed for.... the GUI is great IMO.

Another case in point:


paulman182 said:


> If the ease of use for the wife is any sort of benchmark, the HR20 is a super success in my house.
> 
> My wife is not stupid and learns how to use any equipment we have--but I have to teach her. Not so with the HR20. She was showing me how to do things for the first few days, before I had time to play with it.
> 
> That is a first in my household.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> OK - let's be honest - the fact of the matter is that it took 14 Tivo DVR updates (HR10-250) to get to where the HR20 is today with 4 - and the HR20 is a far more advanced bit of equipment (MPEG4 support for one).
> 
> Users those many years ago were also far less trained on using a DVR, had less PC and Web skillsets, and the like - today's users are plainly more knowledgible and accepting of something past the 1990's Crayola-level menus and operating system in the old Tivo boxes. The need for dumbed-down graphical interfaces has been replaced by more advanced / streamlined GUI's like the one found in the HR20. I can do everything I need, a few new things I never did before, and have yet to read the manual - my wife likewise.
> 
> ...


You missed the point. Most people didn't transition to the H10-250, they started with and used the basic Tivo with much success. And it didn't take 14 updates to get those working, at least not in my admittedly aged memory. Second, as I said, GUI debates/preferences are one thing, a product that works as advertised is another.

Glad to know you are part of that new super-sophisticated end user community, a real smart guy, knows everything about iPods and DVD burners, etc. Wow, that's some pretty complex stuff. In fact, it's rather funny, when you think about it. iPod's owe their very success to the fact that they were EXTREMELY easy to use, and for the most part, very reliable - much like the original Tivo's. You actually are contradicting yourself there. Talk about your "Crayola-level" simplicity: iPod's cornered the market on that front. Guess we can all learn from you, the charter member of this new demographic, the genius set who "get" this new, slick GUI.

Again, any new system to work a DVR can be learned by anyone with a modicum of sense, of course. It's really about the product working as advertised. Spare us the knowledge of how smart and sophisticated you are because you know about iPods and DVD burners. In fact, glad you love the HR-20's GUI so much. Can we now consider you an HR-20 "tree hugger?"


----------



## sharpmibo (Mar 1, 2006)

I have three of the HR20's and other than one unit not recording two episodes on one night prior to the d1 upgrade, I have had no problems. While this product is not mature, it certainly seems very functional to me. 

I do miss some of the Tivo functions, most importantly dual buffers. This being said it seems D* is very actively updating these units and should be lauded for their efforts and not vilified for some early and expected on my part bugs.

If this release was truely a disaster, I think these sites would be overwhelmed with complaints.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

OK guys. Sorry I had a different opinion than you. The HR20 is clearly perfect in every aspect.

If you think that the "average user" is now sophisticated to the point where they understand how a DVR works, you're completely mistaken. In fact, I'm willing to bet that nine out of ten people have no idea how the thing works.

Can I say it one more time? Just because this DVR is "better than Tivo" doesn't mean that it's perfect. How hard is that to understand or accept? I think my Replays are better than Tivo, but there are still some things I'd love to change about them.

It's not whining to point out the shortcomings of a piece of consumer electronics. If you point these things out, they might get changed.

But, I forgot, this thing is perfect.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

sharpmibo said:


> I have three of the HR20's and other than one unit not recording two episodes on one night prior to the d1 upgrade, I have had no problems. While this product is not mature, it certainly seems very functional to me.
> 
> I do miss some of the Tivo functions, most importantly dual buffers. This being said it seems D* is very actively updating these units and should be lauded for their efforts and not vilified for some early and expected on my part bugs.
> 
> If this release was truely a disaster, I think these sites would be overwhelmed with complaints.


Laud away. Meantime, the folks with recurring/remaining (and new) problems will be using another verb to address their situations, and D*. Again, no one is begrudging that some folks have had spotless histories with their HR-20s. But while "actively updating" is good, it can mean something completely different. In this case, I'm wondering if it isn't the boxes as much as it is the MPEG-4 issues, or the fact that there are so many new sophisiticated panels/plasmas/TV sets out there, and it blind-sided D* because they had no way of testing the box with all those different manufacturers. Why else all the varying situations, varying from "great stuff" to "get me the number to retention."


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

Eh, figure this is as good a place as any to make my first post, seeing as how I am just started using my HR20. For a little background, I got my first DirecTivo early 2001, an SAT-T60. shortly after I got a Hughes series 1 also. Those two boxes lasted me until I upgraded to a HR10.. I was ~40th IIRC on the Value Electronics pre-order. So yeah, I've been using Tivo forever. How does this compare to the HR10 IMHO?

Speed - pre-6.3a it blows it away. post-6.3a it is still a little bit faster, though not enough to really make it a major feature.

level of intuition for the UI - not great. with Tivo everything was driven down branches. you did this to get to this and then went further to this. you could start from the main menu and logically get to anything you needed to do. here everything is kind of scattered around the system and you have to figure out which particular menu something might be under.

features - unfortunately we can't grade this for future potential. for "as things are right now", Tivo out of the box beats the HR20 with OTA recording capabilities. With available hacks the Tivo destroys the HR20. The HR20 definitely has the potential to in turn destroy the HR10, but we need to get those features activated (ethernet, usb, a real esata solution, OTA, etc).

in good areas however, one touch recording is fantastic, HDMI still has fewer problems than the Tivo did and still does, and at the end of the day it is still an extremely competent DVR with the ability to record MPEG4 from the Ka sats. And after years of loving the Tivo guide, specfically more channels per page and showing the next x number of shows on a channel vs. only the next x amount of hours, I DO like (and almost consider it a fair tradeoff) the added information right in the grid listing, as well as being able to see the next few hours on a number of channels all from the same screen. I realize you could do that with the Tivo also, but the DirecTV guide on Tivo was SO slow it wasn't worth it.

I don't think this is a bad machine and definitely don't think it is the downfall of D*. Heck, bugs and all it is still better than the SA8300HD and a host of other cable DVRs out there. It definitely has the potential to be the best of the non-Tivo DVRs out there. Of course I am still biased towards Tivo. I always will be, but I can definitely say when I finally switch the living room box to an HR20 also, it won't be as entirely horrible as I was once fretting it would be. They just need to get those OTA tuners working first. In the bedroom where we previously had no HD, 3 locals is better than none. But in the living room where we currently receive around 20 or so shannels OTA, losing that would be horrendous.


----------



## sorahl (Oct 24, 2002)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Totally agree on all your points.
> 
> The Tivo tree-huggers just can't let go, can they? :eek2:


NOW THAT made me laugh  combining Tivo lovers and Environmentacommunists in one group! That is great!!

hehe


----------



## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

I agree, that if it had worked out of the box, it would change the way people feel, dramatically; when I examine my own feelings about it, I only revert if I want to be sure of a recording, and then TIVO seems primitive. The Tivo interface is strictly procedural, while D*tv's is event oriented. Like Windows and MSDOS.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

sorahl said:


> NOW THAT made me laugh  combining Tivo lovers and Environmentacommunists in one group! That is great!!
> 
> hehe


Yeah, talk about your mixed metaphors.


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

psweig said:


> I agree, when I examine my own feelings about it, I only revert if I want to be sure of a recording, and then TIVO seems primitive. The Tivo interface is strictly procedural, while D*tv's is event oriented. Like Windows and MSDOS.


hmm.. your description is fairly accurate, but your level of disparity is a bit off. while the HR20 is definitely event driven, it isn't always entirely logical. it's way of working with submenus is very counterintuitive, which could be improved by breaking submenus out with a slight padding or margin. the way it let's you do something in a mini-sub-menu but then puts you into a full screen submenu without warning or seeming logic is a little offputting. I guess that's what kind of messes with me iwth the HR20. There is little rhyme, reason, or consistency to anything.. something the tivo had in spades. this might be a minim menu item, but something very similar might be a full screen menu. this might let you watch your current show in a PIP format, but then this very simmilar action might lose your PIP-style viewing. sure the PIP-style view is nice and certainly an improvement over the Tivo, but then you just lose it out of nowhere because you went into a different part of the menu. no consistency.

anyway, this is all nitpicking really, and I certainly recognize that.. but to say this is outright better than tivo.. you're really stretching. it certainly has some better features, but there are many things it does that are either worse or just don't make sense. with OTA active and some time using it, it won't really matter. but by way of comparison, it took me approximately 3 seconds to become a master of using my tivo. here I still find myself forgetting which different menu brings up which item etc. sure some of that may be transitioning from one UI to another, but as someone who has dealt with every computer GUI from Amiga Workbench to Windows Vista and everything in between, I can honestly say that there are some very unintuitive things about the HR20's UI.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

borghe said:


> Eh, figure this is as good a place as any to make my first post, seeing as how I am just started using my HR20. For a little background, I got my first DirecTivo early 2001, an SAT-T60. shortly after I got a Hughes series 1 also. Those two boxes lasted me until I upgraded to a HR10.. I was ~40th IIRC on the Value Electronics pre-order. So yeah, I've been using Tivo forever. How does this compare to the HR10 IMHO?
> 
> Speed - pre-6.3a it blows it away. post-6.3a it is still a little bit faster, though not enough to really make it a major feature.
> 
> ...


Well-reasoned analysis. Great job discussing the key issues, angles.


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

borghe said:


> hmm.. your description is fairly accurate, but your level of disparity is a bit off. while the HR20 is definitely event driven, it isn't always entirely logical. it's way of working with submenus is very counterintuitive, which could be improved by breaking submenus out with a slight padding or margin. the way it let's you do something in a mini-sub-menu but then puts you into a full screen submenu without warning or seeming logic is a little offputting. I guess that's what kind of messes with me iwth the HR20. There is little rhyme, reason, or consistency to anything.. something the tivo had in spades. this might be a minim menu item, but something very similar might be a full screen menu. this might let you watch your current show in a PIP format, but then this very simmilar action might lose your PIP-style viewing. sure the PIP-style view is nice and certainly an improvement over the Tivo, but then you just lose it out of nowhere because you went into a different part of the menu. no consistency.
> 
> anyway, this is all nitpicking really, and I certainly recognize that.. but to say this is outright better than tivo.. you're really stretching. it certainly has some better features, but there are many things it does that are either worse or just don't make sense. with OTA active and some time using it, it won't really matter. but by way of comparison, it took me approximately 3 seconds to become a master of using my tivo. here I still find myself forgetting which different menu brings up which item etc. sure some of that may be transitioning from one UI to another, but as someone who has dealt with every computer GUI from Amiga Workbench to Windows Vista and everything in between, I can honestly say that there are some very unintuitive things about the HR20's UI.


Couldn't agree more -- you hit the nail on the head.

And no, I don't think the HR20 is going to be D*'s demise. I just think the original poster had some good points about the HR20's shortcomings.

Be prepared to get yelled at for saying the HR20 is anything less than devine.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

melduforx said:


> OK guys. Sorry I had a different opinion than you. The HR20 is clearly perfect in every aspect.
> 
> If you think that the "average user" is now sophisticated to the point where they understand how a DVR works, you're completely mistaken. In fact, I'm willing to bet that nine out of ten people have no idea how the thing works.
> 
> ...


I really don't think anyone is saying the HR20 is perfect by any means. There are several things I'd like to see improved upon and fixed. But for me it's been a very solid box with only a couple minor issues.

We get it, you love the Replay interface. As do many back in the day. The Replay vs. Tivo "wars" were religious in ferver. Great. The reason that people here compare the HR20 interface to the Tivo interface is because **that is the only option** for DirecTV.
Comparing to Replay may be "cute" for a different perspective but the fact remains that there are no DirecTv Replay devices. Sure there may be a few diehards out there using stand alone DirecTV receiver with a replay but that just isn't practicle for 99% of the population out there as it's not a integrated product with dual tuners and full digital stream recording with no loss of quality.

Again, great, compare to the Replay if you wish and I think it's appreciated to see a different perspective but pretty much everyone could care less as it's just not an option for them and nothing they have experienced. People getting the HR20 fall into 4 camps:

1) Never had a DVR
2) Coming from the HR15 - same interface
3) Coming from a DirecTivo SD or HR10
4) Perhaps a small number still hanging on to an UTV

So of course it's compared directly with Tivo as that is where most people are coming from.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> You missed the point. Most people didn't transition to the H10-250, they started with and used the basic Tivo with much success. And it didn't take 14 updates to get those working, at least not in my admittedly aged memory.


Best Buy and Circuit City sell memory upgrades - the Tivo box has had so many firmware upgrades since inception most people's heads would spin - and that doesn't even count the umteen hacks from the cottage industry. There were that many updates before the unit was considered stable by most folks.

As far as the conversion issue...based on demand and the numbers in the field....I'd guess that there will be as many of the HR20's in place for original H10-250 users within 6 months - maybe 50% will be new HD DVR users. Once MPEG4 LIL is over 80% nationally (they're about 60% now), the older units are pretty obsolete. In some parts of the country, D*TV strongly encouraged replacing H10-250's and even H20 HD receivers with these new HR20 HD DVR boxes.

You don't have to work for NASA to use the HR20 - as many people I know have proven in the real world...:hurah:

Today's users are (hopefully) more technologically advanced than 3-5 years ago ,when the previous Tivo-based units came out. And there's more 18-25 year old tech-head gurus out there as well. I think the older Tivo units came with crayons.  The new ones won't need them.

The new HR20 is a quantum leap improved over the Tivos - get used to it - they're here to stay for some time.


----------



## 911medic (Aug 28, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Let's be honest here. If the HR-20 had worked out of the box, like Tivo did six years ago when I first connected it and started recording with ease, most Tivo users would have gladly given the HR-20's GUI the benefit of the doubt. But because the HR-20 has been so dysfunctional for so many people on this forum (and I can only assume not on this forum too), that creates an even stronger devotion to Tivo's interface - mainly because it worked, which meant people had positive feelings toward it as a product.


Interestingly for me, my experience was exactly opposite. I went thru 3 DirecTivo's (supposedly "mature" hardware) that didn't work out of the box. The HR20's warts are small by comparison--in my experience. The only DVR that worked flawlessly from day one for me was my old E* PVR 508.


tstarn said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I would gladly "let go" of Tivo if the HR-20 worked for me and the majority of D* subs, especially in that one key functional area, reliably recording TV programs and ensuring they exist until the user deletes them.


I think you may be going a little far in stating that the HR20 isn't working properly in that key area for "the majority of D* subs."


----------



## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Best Buy and Circuit City sell memory upgrades - the Tivo box has had so many firmware upgrades since inception most people's heads would spin - and that doesn't even count the umteen hacks from the cottage industry. There were that many updates before the unit was considered stable by most folks.


My SD Series 1 Tivos are about 5 years old now and yes, they've had a few software updates along the way. All ANY of those did was fix obscure stability bugs that affected very few people. In the five years I've had my two, they have never failed to record a program, deleted things unexpected, or locked up a single time due to a software issue. With all due respect to Apple (another brand many are loyal to, including me), It Just Works.

Sure, you can criticize TiVo for a lot of things, but functionality and doing what it's supposed to do, every time, all the time, isn't one of them.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Best Buy and Circuit City sell memory upgrades - the Tivo box has had so many firmware upgrades since inception most people's heads would spin - and that doesn't even count the umteen hacks from the cottage industry. There were that many updates before the unit was considered stable by most folks.
> 
> As far as the conversion issue...based on demand and the numbers in the field....I'd guess that there will be as many of the HR20's in place for original H10-250 users within 6 months - maybe 50% will be new HD DVR users. Once MPEG4 LIL is over 80% nationally (they're about 60% now), the older units are pretty obsolete. In some parts of the country, D*TV strongly encouraged replacing H10-250's and even H20 HD receivers with these new HR20 HD DVR boxes.
> 
> ...


Guess you skimmed right over the part where you put up the iPod and DVD burners as your area of tech expertise.

Face it, you are a moron. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's obvious. Your crayon analogy is probably based on your extensive use of them in recent years, not in using a Tivo, but coloring within the lines. I had three Tivos (one original standalone, and two Directv versions), and aside from just flat-out breaking (and replaced free by D*), they never needed any upgrades or failed to record shows, unless there was a problem with the D* guide. I'm not a Tivo "tree hugger," but I can tell the level of intelligence you emit is a notch above idiot. No one cares about this projected usage numbers, or what D* "recommends." My guess is no one cares about your love of the HR-20 interface, nor your NASA references. They just want their HR-20 to work. Get it?

Must be nice to be so brilliant, so witty (Best Buy and Circuit City sell memory upgrades), so hip when it comes to today's technology. Your posts have convinced me of one thing, I was having fun contributing to this forum, debating issues, stating opinions. But people like you ruin the experience, spending your time ridiculing others because they don't agree with your take on the stupid HR-20 GUI.

No one gives a rat's behind about your projections, your views on "quantum leaps," or your astute analyses in the Tivo vs. Directv debate.

They just want a box that works, and offers an intutive interface. The number of firmware upgrades are irrelevant as long as the box is working along the way. And the GUI? Who cares what you think, really?

I used to have a football coach in high school who, when he got annoyed with someone on the team, would say, "HDTVfan, you are one of three things: An idiot, a simpleton, or a moron." And that says it all in your case.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

LameLefty said:


> Sure, you can criticize TiVo for a lot of things, but functionality and doing what it's supposed to do, every time, all the time, isn't one of them.


But then after 2 months, so does my HR20....
....and so does a toilet plunger. :lol:

The point on the older Tivo-based units wasn't the reliability, it was the GUI - butt ugly and crayola dumbed down. :eek2:


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

911medic said:


> Interestingly for me, my experience was exactly opposite. I went thru 3 DirecTivo's (supposedly "mature" hardware) that didn't work out of the box. The HR20's warts are small by comparison--in my experience. The only DVR that worked flawlessly from day one for me was my old E* PVR 508.I think you may be going a little far in stating that the HR20 isn't working properly in that key area for "the majority of D* subs."


I didn't mean it wasn't working for the majority (only D* knows that for sure), I meant I hope it works for the majority, and I want to be in that group.

As for your Tivo, we just had different experiences. Funny, but I just sold my old Philips standalone Tivo on ebay for $320, including a lifetime service contract. It never failed to record, not once.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not an expert - a user - read your previous post twice.
> 
> Sticks and Stones, my friend.  Those who don't know, call names.... :eek2:
> 
> Thanks for validating the "dumbed down" definition of the old GUI.


As I said, my old coach was right on the money in your case.


----------



## 911medic (Aug 28, 2006)

Guys, please take your flamewar to PM?


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> Guess you skimmed right over the part where you put up the iPod and DVD burners as your area of tech expertise. Face it, you are a moron.


Not an expert - a knowledgable user - I read your previous post twice.


> I used to have a football coach in high school who, when he got annoyed with someone on the team, would say, "HDTVfan, you are one of three things: An idiot, a simpleton, or a moron." And that says it all in your case.


Sticks and Stones, my friend. WOW - namecalling...how brilliant and impressive... :eek2:


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Best Buy and Circuit City sell memory upgrades - the Tivo box has had so many firmware upgrades since inception most people's heads would spin - and that doesn't even count the umteen hacks from the cottage industry. There were that many updates before the unit was considered stable by most folks.


granted I didn't have a Tivo at it's 1999 launch, but I followed the community early and have to pointedly disagree with this. what was generally surprising about the unit and software WAS how stable they were generally considered at launch or around launch.

also another point that has to be taken into consideration is that while it took tivo a ton of updates and many major software revisions to get where they are now, some of what we are referring to are basic system processes which are not available. Yes the DirecTivo didn't have dual tuners enabled at launch, but that doesn't excuse the HR20 for not having OTA available at launch. It would be like (to steal a comparison) saying that because you couldn't run multiple apps in MS-DOS that it is ok you can't run multiple apps in Windows Vista.

OTA should have been available at launch, and should have been a priority for launch.. well, I should say enough of a priority that it would have been done, especially with DirecTV not having even finalized carriage agreements with all of the big four stations in every market where they are providing HD LIL. as for the software itself, somethings like a logical flow through menus, clearer dilineation between menus and sub-menus, consistency throughout menus. why let me view MyVOD list from a submenu only to take me to a fullscreen menu if I want to do anything with an item? Why show picture in picture while viewing the fullscreen list, only to kill PIP if I start messing with certain settings? Just because the Tivo interface wasn't as streamlined back in 1999 as it is in 2006, doesn't excuse another for not being as streamlined in 2006 either.

again, not trying to rain down on the HR20, but some posts in here are borderline apologistic. There are things that should be in the unit, both technically and the UI itself. Not having those features available at launch is definitely a negative factor, compounded by the fact that this is the only HD DVR you can currently get from DirecTV. Their only saving grace is yet another mark against them. By forcing customers into a two year contract AFTER getting a DVR that might not perform as well as they would like, it really hurts DirecTV's customer loyalty factor. At least compared to getting something like the DirecTivo back in 2001.

On the plus side, I am sure DirecTV will get things up to snuff and I have few problems with their service (not even HD Lite except when it gets really bad). On the minus side, it doesn't matter because I am in a two year contract with them. At this point the level by which D* would have to let me down to lose out on almost $300 contract break AND the cost of the HR20 would be huge..

Just saying, the HR20 still has a ways to go to be perfect, and IMHO I believe it still has a ways to go to be as "wowing" as the DirecTivo is/was the first time you came to it from cable system's (or Dish's) DVR.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

borghe said:


> Yes the DirecTivo didn't have dual tuners enabled at launch, but that doesn't excuse the HR20 for not having OTA available at launch. OTA should have been available at launch, and should have been a priority for launch


An interesting point, but the D*TV business model has changed alot since the olden days - now they have MPEG4 local HD channels covering 62% of the U.S., with about 80% by year end. The urgency for OTA isn't there - despite that, it'll be here soon anyway in the HR20.


> Just because the Tivo interface wasn't as streamlined back in 1999 as it is in 2006, doesn't excuse another for not being as streamlined in 2006 either.


Another interesting point. The GUI on the older units catered to a market (for the first couple of years) that had NO experience with HD DVRs. The market has changed since then, and so must the GUI.


> Just saying, the HR20 still has a ways to go to be perfect, and IMHO I believe it still has a ways to go to be as "wowing" as the DirecTivo is/was the first time you came to it from cable system's (or Dish's) DVR.


I'll give you that one. The WOW factor isn't in the HR20...it's in the HD programming.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

borghe said:


> granted I didn't have a Tivo at it's 1999 launch, but I followed the community early and have to pointedly disagree with this. what was generally surprising about the unit and software WAS how stable they were generally considered at launch or around launch.
> 
> also another point that has to be taken into consideration is that while it took tivo a ton of updates and many major software revisions to get where they are now, some of what we are referring to are basic system processes which are not available. Yes the DirecTivo didn't have dual tuners enabled at launch, but that doesn't excuse the HR20 for not having OTA available at launch. It would be like (to steal a comparison) saying that because you couldn't run multiple apps in MS-DOS that it is ok you can't run multiple apps in Windows Vista.
> 
> ...


Well stated Birghe, but don't expect everyone on this thread to understand it. No need to mention names.


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> An interesting point, but the D*TV business model has changed alot since the olden days - now they have MPEG4 local HD channels covering 62% of the U.S., with about 80% by year end. The urgency for OTA isn't there - despite that, it'll be here soon anyway in the HR20.


I couldn't disagree with this more. For many, CW is a big deal. and for many others (such as myself) there is probably a station or two in the area that D* is nowhere near a carriage agreement with. In my case, it is my wonderful CBS affiliate who is claiming that "DirecTV is not interested in carrying our station". Of course I realize it is probably the station asking for $$$ and D* saying no way, but nevertheless the end result is that OTA is the only way to get CBS for us. As well as CW, The Tube, PBS HD, our local NBC WeatherPlus station, MyNetworkHD (well, it is... ), etc. And even your 80% number will again only be the big four, leaving CW and the rest out for practically everyone. the urgency for OTA won't be there when D* duplicates must-carry for DTV channels (which they will be able to once all four sats are up).



> Another interesting point. The GUI on the older units catered to a market (for the first couple of years) that had NO experience with HD DVRs. The market has changed since then, and so must the GUI.


True, and in today's day and age the tivo gui may very well not be the best gui for controlling a DVR with interactive features. however that's not what I'm complaining about. The Tivo GUI was intuitive. It's flow made sense and you almost "just knew" where you were supposed to go next to do something. The HR20 loses that IMHO. THAT is what should be better. The difference between one being event driven and the other being static and procedural isn't a bad thing. The difference between one being intuitive and one being even just slightly confusing is a bad thing. The HR20 being procedural is fine.. but at least make things a little more consistent and logical. Luckily this is stuff they can fix. Unfortunately for people who are less than impressed with the UI, right now it means an inferior product that we have no choice but to use.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> At least I spelled this poster's name right....:lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> And now, back to our regular topic....


At least...


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

borghe said:


> Of course I realize it is probably the station asking for $$$ and D* saying no way, but nevertheless the end result is that OTA is the only way to get CBS for us.


Absolutely a valid point, which is why they will be available through OTA on the HR20 within 90 days of its launch, even though this situation impacts the minority of viewers at this time.


> The Tivo GUI was intuitive. It's flow made sense and you almost "just knew" where you were supposed to go next to do something.


Another good point..but the term "intuitive" is quite subjective and depends on each person's view of what that means to them. My point was that the market has evolved in 5 years, and so the definition of "intuitive" needs to evolve past the old GUI users as well.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

borghe said:


> I couldn't disagree with this more. For many, CW is a big deal. and for many others (such as myself) there is probably a station or two in the area that D* is nowhere near a carriage agreement with. In my case, it is my wonderful CBS affiliate who is claiming that "DirecTV is not interested in carrying our station". Of course I realize it is probably the station asking for $$$ and D* saying no way, but nevertheless the end result is that OTA is the only way to get CBS for us. As well as CW, The Tube, PBS HD, our local NBC WeatherPlus station, MyNetworkHD (well, it is... ), etc. And even your 80% number will again only be the big four, leaving CW and the rest out for practically everyone. the urgency for OTA won't be there when D* duplicates must-carry for DTV channels (which they will be able to once all four sats are up).
> 
> True, and in today's day and age the tivo gui may very well not be the best gui for controlling a DVR with interactive features. however that's not what I'm complaining about. The Tivo GUI was intuitive. It's flow made sense and you almost "just knew" where you were supposed to go next to do something. The HR20 loses that IMHO. THAT is what should be better. The difference between one being event driven and the other being static and procedural isn't a bad thing. The difference between one being intuitive and one being even just slightly confusing is a bad thing. The HR20 being procedural is fine.. but at least make things a little more consistent and logical. Luckily this is stuff they can fix. Unfortunately for people who are less than impressed with the UI, right now it means an inferior product that we have no choice but to use.


On the money, again. And no name calling. I just couldn't resist when it came to Mr. Know-It-All.


----------



## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But then after 2 months, so does my HR20....
> ....and so does a toilet plunger. :lol:
> 
> The point on the older Tivo-based units wasn't the reliability, it was the GUI - butt ugly and crayola dumbed down. :eek2:


It worked and worked well. Everything else is debatable.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Absolutely a valid point, which is why they will be available through OTA on the HR20 within 90 days of its launch, even though this situation impacts the minority of viewers at this time.
> 
> Another good point..but the term "intuitive" is quite subjective and depends on each person's view of what that means to them. My point was that the market has evolved in 5 years, and so the definition of "intuitive" needs to evolve past the old GUI users as well.


Hmm, the term "intuitive" need to be redefined. Interesting. Sure Jakob Nielson (http://www.useit.com/) would disagree. As would most thinking people.


----------



## kbohip (Nov 19, 2005)

gusbuf said:


> The HR20 software is so loaded with flaws it is a joke. My Highes DVR40 Directivo unit is far superior. Sure, the Directivo software has a delay in many commands and procedures and may be a bit slow, but it works properly, perfectly, every time. I have had my DVR40 for 4 years and it has been 99.9% problem free since I bought it. Yeah, the HR20 is fast, but the software sucks. It cancels scheduled recordings for no reason. It creates double entries into the prioritizer. The FF and RW buttons work on about 10% of recorded shows. The user-friendliness of the software is non-existent.


See, this is why I'm waiting as long as I can to get one of these HR20's! Once you've had a box like Tivo that works perfect 99% of the time and records ALL of the shows you want ALL of the time, it's really hard to go to a box that is unreliable. Having had the extreme displeasure of using a Dish 522 DVR for a couple of months and having many missed recordings, reboots, software updates that fixed some things and broke others, reliability is of utmost importance to me.

From what I gather on this forum, the HR20 is riddled with problems that only Directv fanboys defend. I've never understood the whole "you'll get used to it" concept except for the old saying misery loves company. Hopefully they'll fix these problems with future software updates but I've been down that road before and it was chock full of pot-holes and bordering a cliff.

My HR10-250? It's only now had 1 software update (which I still haven't gotten) in the 1+ year that I've owned it. Out of thousands (yes, thousands) of recordings it's never missed 1! Neither has my R10 in the basement. That's the kind of reliability I expect from the HR20 and if I can't get that, I don't want it.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

kbohip said:


> See, this is why I'm waiting as long as I can to get one of these HR20's! Once you've had a box like Tivo that works perfect 99% of the time and records ALL of the shows you want ALL of the time, it's really hard to go to a box that is unreliable. Having had the extreme displeasure of using a Dish 522 DVR for a couple of months and having many missed recordings, reboots, software updates that fixed some things and broke others, reliability is of utmost importance to me.
> 
> From what I gather on this forum, the HR20 is riddled with problems that only Directv fanboys defend. I've never understood the whole "you'll get used to it" concept except for the old saying misery loves company. Hopefully they'll fix these problems with future software updates but I've been down that road before and it was chock full of pot-holes and bordering a cliff.
> 
> My HR10-250? It's only now had 1 software update (which I still haven't gotten) in the 1+ year that I've owned it. Out of thousands (yes, thousands) of recordings it's never missed 1! Neither has my R10 in the basement. That's the kind of reliability I expect from the HR20 and if I can't get that, I don't want it.


Bravo! It's too late for me, but I have two R10s running, and I did get the HR-20 for free, so from that POV, it was worth every penny so far. But you really nailed the issue, straight up.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

kbohip said:


> See, this is why I'm waiting as long as I can to get one of these HR20's! Once you've had a box like Tivo that works perfect 99% of the time and records ALL of the shows you want ALL of the time, it's really hard to go to a box that is unreliable. Having had the extreme displeasure of using a Dish 522 DVR for a couple of months and having many missed recordings, reboots, software updates that fixed some things and broke others, reliability is of utmost importance to me.
> 
> From what I gather on this forum, the HR20 is riddled with problems that only Directv fanboys defend. I've never understood the whole "you'll get used to it" concept except for the old saying misery loves company. Hopefully they'll fix these problems with future software updates but I've been down that road before and it was chock full of pot-holes and bordering a cliff.
> 
> My HR10-250? It's only now had 1 software update (which I still haven't gotten) in the 1+ year that I've owned it. Out of thousands (yes, thousands) of recordings it's never missed 1! Neither has my R10 in the basement. That's the kind of reliability I expect from the HR20 and if I can't get that, I don't want it.


This is what most of us are trying to say, it's not about "evolving" GUIs, it's about reliability. When it comes to recording, HD or otherwise, it's the prime reason for a DVR to exist. If that doesn't work, no matter what the failure percentage by sub might be, it's not ready for prime time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> At least...


I read your full posted article here too on the HR20....

http://www.tvpredictions.com/tomstarner100406.htm

I noticed that it appeared with 48 hours of both the positive CNet and USA Today reviews/articles that cited the HR20 as highly rated, in total contrast to your opinions. Hmmmm....

Not to criticize - but I'm trying to point out that there are varied *opinions* on *opinionated* subjects like:

1) Best HD Picture Quality
2) Best HD Equipment
3) Best HD Content
4) Best HD DVR
5) Best HD Provider

...and the like.

It's OK to debate, but unfortunately, I have found that naysayers and critics here tend to base their views on these boards based on (virtually only) their own experiences, as opposed to a larger group sampling. In addition, people who are happy tend *NOT* to take the time to go out of their way to post "I'm happy, I'm satisfied!" on these boards (but there are a few).

Overall, negative postings tend to dominate in number, but often grossly distort the real world experience of the mass market on these kinds of topics. For every poster here, there are perhaps 100-200 users of the HR20 out there who don't even know this board exists (let alone posts anything).

I respectfully disagree with your negative views on the HR20, and have had totally opposite (positive) experiences with the 2 units I have used in my location.
Based on the huge demand for the unit, along with the consistent media reviews rating it well, I'd be included to think its been a success so far, with more to look forward to in the near future. The rapid firmware updates in just 45 days on the market seems to imply that D*TV wants to get this thing rolling out well.

Time will tell.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> Hmm, the term "intuitive" need to be redefined. Interesting. Sure Jakob Nielson (http://www.useit.com/) would disagree. As would most thinking people.


Good grief, all you can do is flame here to try and make a weak point.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tstarn said:


> Hmm, the term "intuitive" need to be redefined. Interesting. Sure Jakob Nielson (http://www.useit.com/) would disagree. As would most thinking people.


The HR20 is *very* intuitive. My wife figured it all out in less then 5 minutes with not a lot of coaching from me. Just about everything is at your fingure tips. I'm not saying the Tivo interface is bad at all, just that the HR20 also has a good UI too that is very easy to pick up and use. And it's one that we both much prefer and will replace our Tivo unit with a 2nd HR20 by X-mas.

For those that say the UI is bad, what *exactly* is bad about it? Specific examples please.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> This is what most of us are trying to say, it's not about "evolving" GUIs, it's about reliability. When it comes to recording, HD or otherwise, it's the prime reason for a DVR to exist. If that doesn't work, no matter what the failure percentage by sub might be, it's not ready for prime time.


So based on your logic, my 2 HR20's, and the 14 others located at friend's homes with no problems whatsoever (reliability) demonstrate that reliability after 45 days on the market far exceeds the original HD Tivo unit that took 6 months just to stablize. thank you.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Methinks certain people are selectively forgetting all the problems with the HR10 at launch. Failed HDMI ports. Failed tuners. DOA. Lock ups. DD problems. Missed recordings. And just like with the HR20 launch there were some who had problems and many more that didn't. It all needs to be in perspective. 

I'd rather have the box now and help debug it and help push it's direction then have waited another 6 months.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Methinks certain people are selectively forgetting all the problems with the HR10 at launch. Failed HDMI ports. Failed tuners. DOA. Lock ups. DD problems. Missed recordings. And just like with the HR20 launch there were some who had problems and many more that didn't. It all needs to be in perspective.
> 
> I'd rather have the box now and help debug it and help push it's direction then have waited another 6 months.


What is this an HR-20 fanboy tag team? So all those people out there who don't even know forums exist are all having positive experiences, huh? Wow, talk about an idiotic statement. Yeah, since they don't have anywhere to complain, they aren't having any problems.

If you read my review carefully, I don't even say the HR-20 is all that bad, it just wasn't working out of the box, in my case, and in a lot of other people's cases on the DBStalk forum. End of story. Sure you can dial up D* and ask how their tech support lines are doing relative to the HR-20. I have said it many times, if this box worked for me, as advertised, I would be the first one singing its praises. I even like the GUI, to some extent. I just don't like people who think they have all the answers, but really don't have a clue.

It's fairly futile discussing the issues people are having with their HR-20s here anymore, because HDTVfan knows it all, and can't feel anyone else's pain. End of story.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> Methinks certain people are selectively forgetting all the problems with the HR10 at launch. Failed HDMI ports. Failed tuners. DOA. Lock ups. DD problems. Missed recordings. And just like with the HR20 launch there were some who had problems and many more that didn't. It all needs to be in perspective.


Well said. The HR20 out of the gate is better than the H10-250 was 6 months later - and with newer technology and more storage to boot.

Yeah - those "reliable" old HD Tivo's actually prompted a cottage industry of hacks just to get them to operate to their potential.... 

Here's just a sampling of >1000 posts and >10,000 viewers for threads reporting problems with the H10-250 - reliable, huh? - and this is *only a small fraction *of the reported issues and problems on the Tivo Community Website...

When you have a spare day or two - you can read through all these...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=151443

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=320468

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=312472

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=296040

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=318382

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=175338

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315104


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> The HR20 is *very* intuitive. My wife figured it all out in less then 5 minutes with not a lot of coaching from me. Just about everything is at your fingure tips. I'm not saying the Tivo interface is bad at all, just that the HR20 also has a good UI too that is very easy to pick up and use. And it's one that we both much prefer and will replace our Tivo unit with a 2nd HR20 by X-mas.
> 
> For those that say the UI is bad, what *exactly* is bad about it? Specific examples please.


Just read Borghe's posts. He lays it out pretty clearly why the GUI isn't intuitive.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> The HR20 is *very* intuitive. My wife figured it all out in less then 5 minutes with not a lot of coaching from me. Just about everything is at your fingure tips.





tstarn said:


> Just read Borghe's posts. He lays it out pretty clearly why the GUI isn't intuitive.


Apparently not to those of us who totally disagree with those *opinions*.


----------



## sandiegojoe (Oct 2, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> The HR20 is *very* intuitive. My wife figured it all out in less then 5 minutes with not a lot of coaching from me. Just about everything is at your fingure tips. I'm not saying the Tivo interface is bad at all, just that the HR20 also has a good UI too that is very easy to pick up and use.


Gotta agree with you here. I did the "wife test" too. I just left the remote sitting out when desperate housewives was on, and she figured it out quickly enough (after eing used to the hd tivo) No questions to me, no reading the manual. She figured out "guid", "list," "play," "ffwd," and "record" all on her own.

This is a woman who needed help figuring out the ceiling fan remote. ("Look Honey, To turn the light on you have to hit the button with the lightbulb on it")

It's different than Tivo, sure, but whether or not it's a good user interface is up for interpretation. It took some getting used to for me, just cause my subconscious was still stuck in tivo mode.... But it makes sense, and seems just as "intuitive" as the tivo (outside of that, I like the colored buttons being shortcuts for different uses depending on what screen you are on.)

Keep in mind also, that there are certain patented features of a tivo remote control and user-interface. So the hr20 remote is going to have to be signifigantly different from what we've all used in the past. At the end of the day, I wouldn't say it's better or worse. Just different.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

sandiegojoe said:


> Gotta agree with you here. I did the "wife test" too. I just left the remote sitting out when desperate housewives was on, and she figured it out quickly enough (after eing used to the hd tivo) No questions to me, no reading the manual. She figured out "guid", "list," "play," "ffwd," and "record" all on her own.
> 
> This is a woman who needed help figuring out the ceiling fan remote. ("Look Honey, To turn the light on you have to hit the button with the lightbulb on it")


 LOL. :lol:



> It's different than Tivo, sure, but whether or not it's a good user interface is up for interpretation.


 That's what most folks have been saying.... proving wrong the whole premise of this thread's original name.


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Methinks certain people are selectively forgetting all the problems with the HR10 at launch. Failed HDMI ports. Failed tuners. DOA. Lock ups. DD problems. Missed recordings. And just like with the HR20 launch there were some who had problems and many more that didn't. It all needs to be in perspective.
> 
> I'd rather have the box now and help debug it and help push it's direction then have waited another 6 months.


Actually as I qualified, I had an HR10 at launch. and aside from HDMI and dead units, none of the other ones were as widespread as they are being made out to be.

as for specific issues I have with the gui, the biggest issue for me is sub-menus. yeah, it isn't a big issue, and to the machine's credit, that is kind of my point. no issues are big enough for me to regret getting it, but they are just little touches that should have been taken. with submenus, the fact that it essentially "extends" the supermenu is slightly annoying, especially when you move out of a very long MyVOD list in the mini-menu. the fact that navigation through MyVOD from the mini-menu feels completely different than MyVOD fullscreen version, and that the items in each do different things. The fact that some screens on a second or third level menu (at work so can't give specifics) have the PIP screen on it, but other menus at two or three levels deep lose the PIP screen. The fact that you can't trim the fat from the guide without making a favorites list is a huge sticking point at my house. There should have been a Channels You Receive feature that worked. I realize Tivo has the patents for the autocorrect locked down, but there still should be an easier way to autocorrect coming out of ffwd than hitting a completely different button (which isn't even documented). Same thing with remembering your position. I don't hate that I just have to press exit for it to remember where I am, but for that to be the ONLY way for it to remember and not automatically do it any time you leave the show is fairly ridiculous.

These are all just off the top of my head. And some things (like remembering where you are in a show no matter how you exit viewing) are things that have been in DVRs for years now, and should have been in the HR20. Is it a pain for me to hit exit? not at all. but it is hardly intuitive and is not even documented.

anywho, this has gotten me way off topic. I actually just came in the thread to say that it's not all doom and gloom for D* and that the unit isn't that bad. There are a few things that annoy me about it, but overall I don't regret not getting the second HR10 for the bedroom. Instead it has turned into me defending the problems that I do have with the unit. sorry bout that. it's not the end of directv, but the unit has some areas where it needs to improve.

peace (really)


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Again, agree. But HDTV fan is convinced otherwise. He's the only one who has a handle on the truth. So be it. We'll see how it goes, and when it works as advertised for 99.9 percent of us, we'll all be happy, with very minor exceptions.


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Well said. The HR20 out of the gate is better than the H10-250 was 6 months later - and with newer technology and more storage to boot.


hmm.. i really was goint to leave, but this is pretty highly inflamatory, and considering you can search my user name right on there and see I was quite an active member of that board for a while.... I was there and remember.



> Yeah - those "reliable" old HD Tivo's actually prompted a cottage industry of hacks just to get them to operate to their potential....


wrong.. the only hacks for the hd tivo at the beginning were the same hacks for any tivo. twp, hard drives, initrd, yacc, etc. and you had to solder the freaking initrd chip to do any of it. the only "cottage" industry were ways to get around initrd, custom mounting brackets, and the bevee of grey market things you could do with the system. the main two widespread problems were the poorly seated HDMI card and the DOA units. every system at launch will have hardware problems here and there until the manufacturing problem stabilizes. however that is not what we are talking about with the hr20. and in the case of the hr10, the software was rock solid (we only went from 3.1.5d->3.1.5e->3.1.5f in a short period of time, like haldf a year) the fourth update was 6.3a.



> Here's just a sampling of >1000 posts and >10,000 viewers for threads reporting problems with the H10-250 - reliable, huh?


hmm.. those links don't even cover the first half of the front page of this forum... do we really want to play that game?

The Tivo was rock solid aside from the HDMI/DOA issue. The only other issue it had that was widespread was compatibility with various PSIP implementations out there, though given how "relatively" early it was released in HDTV's lifecycle, one can hardly hold that against Tivo. Heck, most stations weren't even sending out their own PSIP guide data, let alone proper PSIP configuration data.

Sorry, but it is impossible, from an objective standpoint, to argue that this has been less problem free than the HR10 rollout. It is definitely true that the HR10 had its issues, but they didn't involve widespread afflictions of infinite rebooting, unviewable/corrupted recordings, lack of OTA capabilities, on top of HDMI and DOA units, etc. Not even close. to put it another way, in a month there have been more HR20 updates than there were for the HD Tivo over its entire lifespan up to now, and we STILL don't have all the features that are listed as "coming soon" on the box itself. Let's keep this to an aesthetic subjective debate over GUIs and stuff, because comparing launches and bugs and whatnot, the HR20 will definitely lose every time.

I'm enjoying my hr20 unit, but this has been a pretty poor launch all things considered, and this is coming from someone whose box has behaved relatively well.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

borghe said:


> hmm.. i really was goint to leave, but this is pretty highly inflamatory, and considering you can search my user name right on there and see I was quite an active member of that board for a while.... I was there and remember.
> 
> wrong.. the only hacks for the hd tivo at the beginning were the same hacks for any tivo. twp, hard drives, initrd, yacc, etc. and you had to solder the freaking initrd chip to do any of it. the only "cottage" industry were ways to get around initrd, custom mounting brackets, and the bevee of grey market things you could do with the system. the main two widespread problems were the poorly seated HDMI card and the DOA units. every system at launch will have hardware problems here and there until the manufacturing problem stabilizes. however that is not what we are talking about with the hr20. and in the case of the hr10, the software was rock solid (we only went from 3.1.5d->3.1.5e->3.1.5f in a short period of time, like haldf a year) the fourth update was 6.3a.
> 
> ...


Funniest thing for me relative to HDTVfan's ranting is I wasn't even talking about the HR-10, I was just talking about the plain old SD Hughes D*Tivo box and the R10, either of which never missed a recording in 5-6 years of use (combined). And my old Philips 35-hour box never missed a beat either. Is that apples to oranges (non-HD), maybe. But most customers don't care a thing about all the inside the box crap, they just want their machines to work. He keeps missing that point with his rants. Time to move on, I guess.


----------



## sandiegojoe (Oct 2, 2006)

CNETs take on the user interface. (From bon's article)

Note- Cnet is just opinion, liek anyone else. However I imagine the article writers have used far more DVRs than most of us posters on the board, and therefore, their opinions do carry a certain amount of weight.



> General interface
> 
> As a whole, the HR20's user interface is among the best we've used, and certainly up to the tough competition. People used to TiVo might miss the animated graphics and plain-language menus, but we appreciated the HR20's relative simplicity and the speed at which it moved. The old DirecTV HD TiVo is positively pokey in comparison, although the menus of both Dish and TiVo Series3 move at about the same speed. DirecTV's blue-and-yellow color scheme is great for highlighting various items, and the use of tabs and left-hand navigation menus will be familiar to anyone who's spent time browsing the Web (Dish's graphics, with their rounded edges and oversized type, look antiquated by comparison). There's even a convenient Back button that takes you to the previous screen.
> 
> Our favorite interface feature is the context-sensitive, popup-style Quick Menu. Think of it as the "right-click" in Windows, which offers common options depending on what you're doing. If you're watching a live or recorded program, for example, the menu gives you audio options, favorite channels, your list of recorded programs (DirecTV calls it--confusingly--MyVOD), search, recent phone calls from the caller-ID function, help and settings, and parental locks. If you're in the EPG, the audio options disappear, replaced by category sort, date and time search, and pay-per-view options in addition to the others. From the MyVOD list, the options change to sorting, mass delete (a very welcome feature), and control of program groupings. Users unfamiliar with all the capabilities of the DVR will find the menu a great way to intuitively explore and access all of its functions. That's a good thing, because the thin manual included with the HR20 is brief to the point of uselessness about most of the receiver's capabilities.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

sandiegojoe said:


> Gotta agree with you here. I did the "wife test" too. I just left the remote sitting out when desperate housewives was on, and she figured it out quickly enough (after eing used to the hd tivo) No questions to me, no reading the manual. She figured out "guid", "list," "play," "ffwd," and "record" all on her own.
> 
> This is a woman who needed help figuring out the ceiling fan remote. ("Look Honey, To turn the light on you have to hit the button with the lightbulb on it")
> 
> ...


Figuring out the FF, REW, GUIDE, PLAY and RECORD buttons, which are pretty much spelled out on the remote, is a far cry from using the interface from scratch to do all the things a DVR is capable of doing. So kudos to your wife, but it's really not a fair comparison/test relative to the more complex features/functions of the DVR.

Agree?


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

They need to make it read minds :lol: no buttons, no remote at all. Just plug it into the wall and it hooks itself up to your tv and dish, automaticaly records everything you want.. (lots of porn) :lol:


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

sandiegojoe said:


> CNETs take on the user interface. (From bon's article)
> 
> Note- Cnet is just opinion, liek anyone else. However I imagine the article writers have used far more DVRs than most of us posters on the board, and therefore, their opinions do carry a certain amount of weight.


CNET's reviews are interesting, and can be useful, but sometimes, just for fun, match them up with the user reviews. More often than not, the numbers don't match up all that well.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

houskamp said:


> They need to make it read minds :lol: no buttons, no remote at all. Just plug it into the wall and it hooks itself up to your tv and dish, automaticaly records everything you want.. (lots of porn) :lol:


That works.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tstarn said:


> What is this an HR-20 fanboy tag team? So all those people out there who don't even know forums exist are all having positive experiences, huh? Wow, talk about an idiotic statement. Yeah, since they don't have anywhere to complain, they aren't having any problems.
> 
> If you read my review carefully, I don't even say the HR-20 is all that bad, it just wasn't working out of the box, in my case, and in a lot of other people's cases on the DBStalk forum. End of story. Sure you can dial up D* and ask how their tech support lines are doing relative to the HR-20. I have said it many times, if this box worked for me, as advertised, I would be the first one singing its praises. I even like the GUI, to some extent. I just don't like people who think they have all the answers, but really don't have a clue.
> 
> It's fairly futile discussing the issues people are having with their HR-20s here anymore, because HDTVfan knows it all, and can't feel anyone else's pain. End of story.


I was simply pointing out that the HR10 wasn't and still isn't perfect. No receiver is. There are just some Tivo coolaid drinkers that don't want to give something else a chance and immediately think it's "crap" because it's not a Tivo. Many people feel the Replay and UTV were suprior interfaces to Tivo years ago. Some don't agree. If you have to have Tivo then there are options.

HR20 has some problems, that's obvious. And I'm sorry your box is one that has issues.


----------



## sandiegojoe (Oct 2, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Figuring out the FF, REW, GUIDE, PLAY and RECORD buttons, which are pretty much spelled out on the remote, is a far cry from using the interface from scratch to do all the things a DVR is capable of doing. So kudos to your wife, but it's really not a fair comparison/test relative to the more complex features/functions of the DVR.
> 
> Agree?


To an extent. As long as the basic uses are easy enough, most peole are going to like it just fine. Anything beyond what my wife is going to use it for is just going to require some basic common sense and familiarity with electronic products. The HR20 doesn't seem any more or less intuitive than most DVRs/DVDs/PDAs etc.. that I've used in life, nothing to really praise it or complain about it for IMO, it's about the level of quality I'd expect for a Directv or Tivo controller.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

borghe said:


> hmm.. those links don't even cover the first half of the front page of this forum... do we really want to play that game?
> 
> The Tivo was rock solid aside from the HDMI/DOA issue.


Obviously *NOT*. If you were on that site like you claim, you'd know that. Those threads contained hundreds of complaints on how the HD Tivo *did not *work as intended. Rock solid - *ha*. Anything but.  In fact, the latest myriad of threads on about various problems with the 6.3a firmware on those boxes.

In addition, the hacks were not just hobbyists as you *portray*, rather, they included hundreds of workarounds to bugs, fixes to shortcomings, and cracks to hidden codes left in the Tivo software that were not intended for the mainstream public. A pig in a dress is still a pig.

I submitted maybe 1 half of 1% of the threads and related posts on problems with the H10-250. There are hundreds of threads on that site regarding problems. Some of the complaints cover 2002 - 2006. Over time, many got addressed, but some were there for years. As a former owner of one, I spent countless hours there praying for fixes or workarounds. Thank goodness for the hackers!

The HR20, in contrast, is far cleaner in terms of GUI, far faster, far more robust in terms of storage (actual HD recording use) than the H10-250 every hoped to be - all with a fraction of the bugs. If you compare where this box is to where the 45 day old H10-250 was after even 6 months on the market, there *IS* not comparison - the HR20 wins hands down. As *bonscott87* said, its not perfect, but a heck of alot superior, and getting better every day.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I was simply pointing out that the HR10 wasn't and still isn't perfect. No receiver is. There are just some Tivo coolaid drinkers that don't want to give something else a chance and immediately think it's "crap" because it's not a Tivo. Many people feel the Replay and UTV were suprior interfaces to Tivo years ago. Some don't agree. If you have to have Tivo then there are options.
> 
> HR20 has some problems, that's obvious. And I'm sorry your box is one that has issues.


No problem. I don't even care about Tivo that much, to be honest. My HR-20 is starting to work, it seems. No missed recordings in 3-4 days, and I have been putting it through its paces big-time. I actually love the idea of recording HD, since I didn't have an HR-10. To me, if it's reliable, I will embrace almost any interface.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

sandiegojoe said:


> To an extent. As long as the basic uses are easy enough, most peole are going to like it just fine. Anything beyond what my wife is going to use it for is just going to require some basic common sense and familiarity with electronic products. The HR20 doesn't seem any more or less intuitive than most DVRs/DVDs/PDAs etc.. that I've used in life, nothing to really praise it or complain about it for IMO, it's about the level of quality I'd expect for a Directv or Tivo controller.


Agree.


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

My wife still can't figuire out her cell phone


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> No problem. I don't even care about Tivo that much, to be honest. My HR-20 is starting to work, it seems. No missed recordings in 3-4 days, and I have been putting it through its paces big-time. I actually love the idea of recording HD, since I didn't have an HR-10. To me, if it's reliable, I will embrace almost any interface.


That's the spirit!


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Obviously *NOT*. If you were on that site like you claim, you'd know that. Those threads contained hundreds of complaints on how the HD Tivo *did not *work as intended. Rock solid - *ha*. Anything but.  In fact, the latest myriad of threads on about various problems with the 6.3a firmware on those boxes.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=1935042&highlight=borghe#post1935042

what is the term?? oh yea, stfu I believe. undreds of different complaints != widespread problems. I specifically said widespread problems, of which there was the misseated HDMI cards and the units arriving DOA.

just for bragging rights this post shows that I was the first reported user after weaknees to upgrade their unit, which was LONG before killhdinitrd existed, the only easy way to apply hacks to your system.



> In addition, the hacks were not just hobbyists as you *portray*, rather, they included hundreds of workarounds to bugs, fixes to shortcomings, and cracks to hidden codes left in the Tivo software that were not intended for the mainstream public. A pig in a dress is still a pig.


do I need to post my links to my earliest posts on dealdatabase as well to show you how early I hacked my HD Tivo software? yeah, I was there, and you are full of crap at this point. The only way you could hack the software on the HD Tivo was to desolder the surface mounted initrd chip, solder a socket to the pads and resolder the chip to the board to allow it to be flashed. So I fail to see how people "hacked workarounds" from the beginning when the only people who were even able to GET hacks on their units were the ones paying the couple guys on dealdatabase to solder-hack their boxes.



> I submitted maybe 1 half of 1% of the threads and related posts on problems with the H10-250. There are hundreds of threads on that site regarding problems. Some of the complaints cover 2002 - 2006. Over time, many got addressed, but some were there for years. As a former owner of one, I spent countless hours there praying for fixes or workarounds. Thank goodness for the hackers!


ok, at this poitn without specific examples you are talking through your ass. I've applied twp, yaac, backdoors, 30s-skip, and various hacks I don't think I can mention here. Please inform us what hacks and workarounds you've had installed on your unit. The only thing I have EVER had to hack on my unit regarding performance was when my CBS affiliate was sending out the wrong PSIP data for their subchannel configuration and I had to go into the MFS database and change how the channel appeared to get it working correctly. Ironically that was eventually magically fixed on the tivo without a single software upgrade.. wonder why.. hmm. but go ahead, I would be interested in hearing all the hacks and workarounds you've had to do.



> The HR20, in contrast, is far cleaner in terms of GUI,


highly subjective



> far faster,


then yes, now no.



> far more robust in terms of storage (actual HD recording use)


robust? hmmm.. easy to change storage, yeah. robust? no. I could setup 2x300GB drives in the HR10 with minimal effort. Here you either use one drive intnerally or one drive externally. you need to lookup the definition of robust me thinks.



> all with a fraction of the bugs.


again:
corrupted recordings
flaky HDMI
dead hdmi
flaky MPEG4 recordings
reports of shows not being recorded
dolby 5.1 glitches

all of these being widespread issues with dozens (even hundreds) of posts on each single issue. rose colored glasses are definitely in effect here, but I looking back at my old threads on ddf or tivocommunity I don't think I'm the one using them.



> but a heck of alot superior, and getting better every day.


a valid opinion, but one that quite a few people don't agree with you on. certainly have have to understand that.


----------



## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

psweig said:


> I agree, that if it had worked out of the box, it would change the way people feel, dramatically; when I examine my own feelings about it, I only revert if I want to be sure of a recording, and then TIVO seems primitive. The Tivo interface is strictly procedural, while D*tv's is event oriented. Like Windows and MSDOS.


One thing to point out here. Most of the people on this forum where slathering their tongues for months waiting for D* to release this "new DVR" We had all the names down (HR10-250 we thought), had thousands of posts on here saying "where the heck is this box", release dates kept getting pushed back, etc.

Now they released it and we are still pounding D* for its lack of functionality. Maybe they shouldn't have released it yet if there were this many issues, but then we would still be *****in' at D* why they keep pushing back the release date.

Could you imagine the issues we would have, if they had released this box in June, like they had planned?


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's the spirit!


It's got nothing to do with you, trust me. I felt this way all along. Just your "superior" attitude is what bugs me, even if I agreed with you.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Alright Alright Alright...

Please, don't make me turn the fire hose on ya all...


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

borghe said:


> do I need to post my links to my earliest posts on dealdatabase as well to show you how early I hacked my HD Tivo software? yeah, I was there, and you are full of crap at this point. ok, at this poitn without specific examples you are talking through your ass.


OK, so you're a veteran of that site - Whoopee. Then you *did* read the thousands of complaints on problems. So did I and countless others. I felt their pain. 

Between your typing skills, quality spelling, and huge vulgar vocabularly, I'm now thoroughly convinced everything you say is true (hehehehehe - *no way*).  :lol:

Thanks Earl - these bogus naysayers certainly need a good hosing down.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks Earl - these bogus naysayers certainly need a good hosing down.


Everyone needs a good hosing down.... this is a DVR after all, and we all have different opinions and expertises and feelings ect...

This is supposed to be a fun, constructive place to talk and chat.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> This is supposed to be a fun, constructive place to talk and chat.


Agreed.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Everyone needs a good hosing down.... this is a DVR after all, and we all have different opinions and expertises and feelings ect...
> 
> This is supposed to be a fun, constructive place to talk and chat.


Forget it Earl, Mr. HDTVfan doesn't know about manners, being constructive, etc. You are wasting your time.


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Between your typing skills, quality spelling, and huge vulgar vocabularly, I'm now thoroughly convinced everything you say is true (hehehehehe - *no way*).  :lol:


it is a sign of a losing argument to make strawman attacks against things like spelling, typing etc. do we resort to usernames and namecalling next?

the point is that you keep implying that it was so horrible, and as my links prove, I was there and don't see what you are talking about. You point out thousands of posts over there, I point out thousands of posts here. you point out tens of thousands of views there, I point them out here. The only thing either of us can objectively look at are the widespread issues. the issues that a large number of users were simultaneously having with the respective boxes. In the case of the HR10 it was the HDMI issues suffered from poorly seated and/or defective cards, and the units arriving DOA. There were some OTA reception issues but as referenced by my OTHER thread I linked to, it is hard to blame all of those reception issues on the Tivo, especially considering most of them typically went away without a single software update from Tivo. The only software revisions we had during that entire time were 3.1.5d (launch), e, and f.

However we only need to look so far as both the Release Notes forum on here, as well as each respective discussion thread to see the problems with the HR20. WIDESPREAD problems. It isn't only one or two people complaining about black screens on MPEG4, or corrupted recordings, or HDMI problems (audio and video), or lack of OTA, etc. These are WIDESPREAD issues, just like the HDMI and DOA issues for the Tivo.

Anyway, I am done. I've made my point and provided proof amidst your conjecture and inaccuracies. It is defintively impossible to say that the HR10 launch had significantly more bugs and/or problems without being a flat out liar. It is definitively impossible to talk about how crippled the Tivo software is when it received a mere 2 updates in 6 months, and only one other update over the next 2 years. And I think even Earl can concur that the HR20 launch has, unfortunately, not gone off without its share of major issues. But let me point out that I think the box IS a perfectly fine box, and that nothing showstopping currently exists and the little glitches will either be fixed or just gotten used to. However at this point your repsonses have reverted to the same tone you've taken with tstarn; inflammatory and condescending. No point in continuing a discussion with a person whose only recourse at this point is "nyahh nyahh"


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> Forget it Earl, Mr. HDTVfan doesn't know about manners, being constructive, etc. You are wasting your time.


Sure....like I'm the one who was calling names and swearing..... 

Let it go......let it go........let it go......


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

borghe said:


> No point in continuing a discussion with a person whose only recourse at this point is "nyahh nyahh"


It sure hasn't stopped you from posting gross mis-statements, huge inaccuracies, falsehoods, insults, name-calling, and the like. But good. BYE! ::jumpingja


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It sure hasn't stopped you from posting gross mis-statements, huge inaccuracies, falsehoods, insults, name-calling, and the like. But good. BYE! ::jumpingja


please *show me* the specific inaccuracies and falsehoods I've made. I would also like to see the insults and name calling. Simply saying I am wrong doesn't instantly make it true. I've provided links showing that I was around during the first HR10 days (when you alluded to that I wasn't), that I was on the board that you claim was explosive about hundreds of issues with the units (re: 2 big ones and a host of minor ones), and that some of the things you've said (hacking the unit for functionality, broken software, etc) were just flat out incorrect. that is how you show that someone is wrong. saying it over and over again doesn't work, even if you really really want it to.

so can you respond to this with a factual and supported post, or is it more smarmy comments ftw.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

borghe said:


> please *show me* ....


 You can start with post 147 and work your way back....I've ended responses to your continued bantor. :nono2:

:backtotop


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> The HR20 is *very* intuitive. My wife figured it all out in less then 5 minutes with not a lot of coaching from me. Just about everything is at your fingure tips. I'm not saying the Tivo interface is bad at all, just that the HR20 also has a good UI too that is very easy to pick up and use. And it's one that we both much prefer and will replace our Tivo unit with a 2nd HR20 by X-mas.
> 
> For those that say the UI is bad, what *exactly* is bad about it? Specific examples please.


It's been stated over and over again. The UI has too many contextual menus that hide options, not to be found anywhere else. Contextual menus are great, yes, but you need to be able to find those functions outside of those contextual menus.

I think my example of trying to change recording options is a damn good example of exactly what is wrong with the UI on the HR20.

You keep saying your wife picked it up in five minutes. Could she figure out how to change a recording from a season pass to a one time only record?


----------



## melduforx (Mar 23, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Comparing to Replay may be "cute" for a different perspective but the fact remains that there are no DirecTv Replay devices. Sure there may be a few diehards out there using stand alone DirecTV receiver with a replay but that just isn't practicle for 99% of the population out there as it's not a integrated product with dual tuners and full digital stream recording with no loss of quality.


I absolutely cannot wrap my mind around why it's so weird to compare the UI on the HR20 to a Replay. They're both DVRs that hook up to your TV and record programming. It's not "cute" to compare the two, it's logical.

Nobody is saying the HR20 is a piece of crap. I think what I was so surprised about when I first used it was that it felt like a leap backwards in DVR technology.

Yes, I'm glad you guys like the one touch record and are touting that as a "brand new feature," but I've had that for years. The fact is, everything that you guys think is nice about this (fast menus, one-touch recordings, and the like) are features that I've been loving since I got my first Replay 5040 in 2002.

Do you guys all work for D* or something? I don't think anybody in this forum would give up their HR20 (well, except a couple folks who got some really crappy units), regardless of whether or not they like the UI.


----------



## borghe (Oct 6, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You can start with post 147 and work your way back....I've ended responses to your continued bantor.


so again you respond with vague and pointless responses to evade the point. I thought we were on topic.. someone posted that the HR20 sucks, I post among others saying that while it has it's share of bugs, it is far from horrible, and we end up with you and a few others name calling and taking condescending tones with people because we don't share your enthusiasm for the product.

you insinuate "You don't remember what the Tivo launch was like" I provide proof to show you that I do.

You flat out state that the Tivo software was broken and repaired several times, both officially and unofficially. I prove that wrong by showing it was only upgraded twice in 6 months and that the first soft hacks for it didn't come for almost 5 months after.

you claim there were hundreds of bugs with the HR10 at launch, yet your own threads that you link to were mainly people complaining about the same 2 or so bugs over and over and a handful of others with a smatterinug of other problems.

you claim there are virtually no problems with the HR20, yet on the first page alone you have no less than 2 stickied topics for major problems, not to mention lack of OTA, not to mention the well known problems already covered in the 4 release notes for the respective software updates in just a month.

and when I point these out over and over and over and over in posts, you respond with some snarky vague comment hoping to get away with your, quite simply, BS in this thread. So while others have just dropped your incessant and almost illogical stance taken in this thread, alas I am here to both say your ice has fallen through already it might be time to abandon hope, and at the same time say that even though we are realists in the bugs the unit quite obviously has, it still isn't all that bad. certainly nowhere near as bad as you would have everyone believe the HR10 was at launch, even if not quite as good as that product's launch ACTUALLY was.

heck, even in the media you are seeing people come forth and saying their old trusty tivo is still the main workhorse to make sure they get every show they record. on this very board you have no less than over half of the first page covering bugs and problems and dissatisfied users. yes by this same time, as you like to point out, with the HR10 the vast majority were happy and in fact on their way to figuring out how we could rip the puppy open and apply out series 2 hacks to it.

so, more vague and ambiguous references to incorrect and false statements please.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Alright... this has gone WAY off topic, and is a battle of witts.

thread is closed.


----------

