# 2009 federal DTV transition



## hrtbreaker (Jun 29, 2006)

Happy Turkey day,

With the upcoming 2009 federal digital tv transition, the federal government will start offering $40 waivers in the beginning of 2008 so consumers will be able to buy set-top boxes to convert digital tv signals to analog for their old analog tv's.

The fed govt has said that cable/satellite customers will have to rely on their providers for the digital signal translation.

Will Dish be taking the digital over-the-air signals and reconverting them to their own format for retransmission?

Will this do anything to the (eventual) MPEG-4 conversion?

I've still got a couple of 4900 receivers and was wondering if Dish will eventually have to replace them for the new MPEG-4 standard or if that's still years away.

Thanks


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

hrtbreaker said:


> Happy Turkey day,
> 
> With the upcoming 2009 federal digital tv transition, the federal government will start offering $40 waivers in the beginning of 2008 so consumers will be able to buy set-top boxes to convert digital tv signals to analog for their old analog tv's.
> 
> ...


DISH's transmission is digital does your 4900 receive those signals, why are you asking a question you already know the answer to.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

hrtbreaker said:


> Happy Turkey day,
> 
> With the upcoming 2009 federal digital tv transition, the federal government will start offering $40 waivers in the beginning of 2008 so consumers will be able to buy set-top boxes to convert digital tv signals to analog for their old analog tv's.
> 
> The fed govt has said that cable/satellite customers will have to rely on their providers for the digital signal translation.


Not quite true. I very much intend to get my 2 couponboxes relatively early. AFTER the initial block of money is used up, THEN the priority will be for the OTA - only using public. If you use OTA in addition to your DBS like I do , get your boxes early.



hrtbreaker said:


> Will Dish be taking the digital over-the-air signals and reconverting them to their own format for retransmission?


 Who really cares ? That's for Dish to decide - all you need to worry about is getting your primary feed from them. There are markets that are probably already getting OTA digitals for their locals.



hrtbreaker said:


> Will this do anything to the (eventual) MPEG-4 conversion?


 No.



hrtbreaker said:


> I've still got a couple of 4900 receivers and was wondering if Dish will eventually have to replace them for the new MPEG-4 standard or if that's still years away.
> 
> Thanks


The MPEG4 is only for Dish (and DirectTV because they WANT to, for more efficniet transmission of HDTV programming. Your 4900's will be good until Dish decides otherwise.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Take it easy boba, he has a legitimate question here.

I presume you are asking about the source of the local-into-local service. Currently LIL's use the analog signals supplied by the local stations (either by direct connection or OTA to a local "POP" - point of presence, where all the local signals are received and combined to a fiber-optic backbone that goes to the satellite uplink). Once the analog signals go away E* will have to use the digital signals since that's all that the locals will provide.

None of this has anything to do with MPEG4, which is currently used only for HD. 

Remember: not all digital is HD, and the 2009 "federal" conversion is from analog to digital, not SD to HD. There will be digital SD for years to come. Current analog TV's hooked to any E* IRD will receive SD programs and down-converted HD programs after the conversion.


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

If all it takes is $40 to get a digital STB, I would think just about anyone could afford that if they already have a TV, why do I have subsidize as a tax payer other people's ability to watch TV? Not to mention the abuse, people getting these boxes, whether they need them or not..

People have over a year, (longer if anyone paid attention) if they tossed pocket change into a jar they could probably afford a low end TV with a digital tuner in it. It might not be HD, but it would have an ATSC tuner in it..


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

normang - it's not a "direct" subsidy from taxpayers per se. It's coming from the expected revenues for the spectrum auction.

And yes - I already have 1 digital SDTV and one HDTV - but that doesn't cover everything in the house yet either.


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

normang said:


> If all it takes is $40 to get a digital STB, I would think just about anyone could afford that if they already have a TV, why do I have subsidize as a tax payer other people's ability to watch TV? Not to mention the abuse, people getting these boxes, whether they need them or not..
> 
> People have over a year, (longer if anyone paid attention) if they tossed pocket change into a jar they could probably afford a low end TV with a digital tuner in it. It might not be HD, but it would have an ATSC tuner in it..


IAWTC: This conversion has been in the works for about what?, a decade? I can see subsidizing people under the poverty line (or some other means-test), but handing out vouchers willy-nilly is just stupid.

As always, if you want something done wrong, just ask the government.

Speaking of efficient government: How many times has this conversion been pushed out, anyway?


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

scooper said:


> normang - it's not a "direct" subsidy from taxpayers per se. It's coming from the expected revenues for the spectrum auction. And yes - I already have 1 digital SDTV and one HDTV - but that doesn't cover everything in the house yet either.


If you already have two digital TV's and still have "more" TV's that are merely "analog", you can IMHO afford your own STB's for the rest of your sets without running out to get one of these STB Vouchers..

Some people will probably go and get one, and have cable or Sat TV, and really don't even need one, but they'll get one, because they can.. not that they should. Because there will be probably zero control over how you can get one of the STB's Vouchers..... I wonder how many of these STB's will be on Ebay within hours of becoming available..


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Any that I get will NOT be on EBay - that I can assure you - and who made you the decider of who is eligible ?


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

scooper said:


> Any that I get will NOT be on EBay - that I can assure you - and who made you the decider of who is eligible ?


Well. if its taxpayer money, some of this giveaway is my cash, because nothing the government does is free, They really don't own the spectrum they recover when the digital transistion is complete, they just adminstrate it to their benefit, at our expense.

So while I really can't tell you not to get one, don't you think if you can afford to get your own, you should? And if you don't care, thats why we have more people out their wasting billions of tax payer dollars because they think it free, or its someone elses money, when in reality, it costs us all..


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

normang said:


> Well. if its taxpayer money, some of this giveaway is my cash, because nothing the government does is free, They really don't own the spectrum they recover when the digital transistion is complete, they just adminstrate it to their benefit, at our expense.
> 
> So while I really can't tell you not to get one, don't you think if you can afford to get your own, you should? And if you don't care, thats why we have more people out their wasting billions of tax payer dollars because they think it free, or its someone elses money, when in reality, it costs us all..


Actually its not really directly taxpayer money. The government is using funds that are coming from the resale of the frequencies the analog stations are abandoning. Its definitely an inefficient use of funds though.


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## samhevener (Feb 23, 2006)

normang said:


> Well. if its taxpayer money, some of this giveaway is my cash, because nothing the government does is free, They really don't own the spectrum they recover when the digital transistion is complete, they just adminstrate it to their benefit, at our expense.
> 
> So while I really can't tell you not to get one, don't you think if you can afford to get your own, you should? And if you don't care, thats why we have more people out their wasting billions of tax payer dollars because they think it free, or its someone elses money, when in reality, it costs us all..


The public owns the airwaves, the FCC only requlates them. The auctions for the new spectrum are going to bring in billions of dollars when it happens. The congress only wants to give us a max of two vouchers worth $80.00. We should receive ALL the money from the auctions. The government should be sending checks to EVERY citizen over 18 years old, it's our property that is being sold. Each citizen should receive a check for hundreds of dollars. We won't have to worry about that because, thank goodness, the new congress that is elected next fall, that isn't controlled by the broadcasting industry, will delay the transistion well past 2009.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

samhevener said:


> We won't have to worry about that because, thank goodness, the new congress that is elected next fall, that isn't controlled by the broadcasting industry, will delay the transistion well past 2009.


Thank you for your prediction that the Democrat controlled congress will be ousted, but this is not a political forum so let's not go into political themes.

Also note that the new congress will barely be seated before the deadline passes. Unless stopping DTV transition is job one or something is done by the current congress you can count on that February 2009 transition date.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Absolutely agree James - the DTV transition is going - period. The only possible way it won't is if the current crop of candidates (both Presidential and Congressional) "discover" this , decide to make it a big issue, AND get elected, AND manage to fast-track the legislation to delay it. I don't see it happening.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

They have delayed it before. The origional date was to happen back in 2006 and it was delayed again till 2009. It wouldn't surprise me if it gets delayed again once the public figures out that their ota stations are gone.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

The people this will hurt the most are those that live in the fringe areas that use OTA. They will most likely lose a lot of channels. Sure, half their channels may now be a bit snowy now but at least they can watch them. With DTV you will either get a clear picture or get nothing. This does not take into account that antenna positioning seems to be much more sensitive then with analog.

As an example, while I haven’t watched OTA for years, I did install one inside to get some of the locals in HD. I can pick up all 4 local major networks in analog but can only pick up 2 in digital. The bonus is that our local PBS station not only has one HD channels but two additional SD digital channels and one of the locals has an additional SD channel that displays weather information 24/7.


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

The day when traditional analog TV will be shut off will NEVER COME.

Digital TV was just a pay-off by the then in power to Big Media for 50+ years of loyal watercarrying. Digital TV is just a way for the OTA monopolists to transmit multiple unwanted channels such as home shopping. 

Coming soon will be plenty of governmentbashing about how the "transition" is screwed up and how it needs to be pushed back again for the so-called "poor". (Actually, of course, the poorest 1/5th of Americans are quite wealthy by worldwide standards, and most people without cable or DBS are not in that group anyway, but are rather just people who make lifestyle choices that do not include much TV.) 

Everybody's analog TV will work just fine in 2010, 2020 and 2030.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

> Everybody's analog TV will work just fine in 2010, 2020 and 2030.


The TVs will work, there just will be few OTA signals to receive (low power stations that are not required to flip on the deadline). Those analog TVs will work fine on analog cable and for converter boxes (cable converters, satellite tuners and the $40 boxes). But in 15 months don't _expect_ OTA in analog from any full power station.

The government has sold the frequencies ... stations MUST vacate. This isn't some mass government conspiracy requiring people to buy new TVs or subscribe to cable/satellite ... this is the industry moving on.

Running dual transmission systems is expensive ... most stations are looking forward to the day they can cut power on their old analog system and stop maintaining it. There are already a few stations that have done just that.

There will come a day when there is no analog OTA TV. For most stations that day will come in February 2009.


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## retiredTech (Oct 27, 2003)

I have not seen the FCC (or any other agency) address the how the uncounted ( many thousands ?) number of viewers who now get Analog TV that willl not be able to get Digital TV because the drop in reception distance that digital will cause.
There are a lot of rural areas that get reception now that will lose all reception when analog is dropped. I live at least 80 -100 miles from all broadcast stations.
I use E* for my locals but there are many people in this area who still use analog.
Does anyone have any info (or webpage) that explains the real distance(miles) that Digital SD TV can be viewed ?
Selling the public airways and NOT providing a functioning replacement for the whole public is wrong. Some of that money should go for repeater towers to cover the areas that are now served but will lose reception.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

retiredTech - I'd start with www.antennaweb.org and www.tvfool.com and see what they say is available in your area.

So far as repeaters - that is the stations' responsibility. Ask your "local" stations what their plans are for people in your situation. My guess is that you will probably be told either cable or DBS, but I would love to be proven wrong.


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

James Long said:


> There will come a day when there is no analog OTA TV. For most stations that day will come in February 2009.


I respectfully disagree.  The groundwork for yet another pushback of the deadline is being set up right now. The transition will be set back and set back until it is finally forgotten about.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

SamC said:


> I respectfully disagree. The groundwork for yet another pushback of the deadline is being set up right now. The transition will be set back and set back until it is finally forgotten about.


Care to post links / cite sources ?

All the broadcast people I hear from on internet forums just want this transition to be over with, AND they are planning on it at this time. If your local stations aren't already broadcasting PSAs announcing the transition, they will be starting in Febuary 2008 - 2 PSAs per day per station - in prime time as well . If your locals don't already have digital stations as well - you can bet they are probably planning on going off the air on Febuary 19, 2009. The few exceptions will be "flashcuts" - stop broadcasting analog and pickup digital the next morning.


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

The only "links" necessary are the fact that is "transition" has already been pushed back once, and simply watching the MSM and its constant bashing of the "screwed up" transition. The give back day will NEVER come.


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## Mike500 (May 10, 2002)

The DTV transition will go ahead. *The main reason is to free up the spectrum for emergency first responders and Homeland Security.*

For those who have noted the limited range of DTV signals, it should be known that those currently transmitting might not be on full power. Also, a number of stations will be givern the opportunity to revert nback to a digital VHF frequency, which will provide distance at less power than UHF.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

SamC said:


> The only "links" necessary are the fact that is "transition" has already been pushed back once, and simply watching the MSM and its constant bashing of the "screwed up" transition. The give back day will NEVER come.


Go ahead thinking that. You'll be one of those that on on Febuary 20, 2009 will be on TV saying "I didn't think they would actually do it, now I can't get my local channels on my old TVs."


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SamC said:


> The only "links" necessary are the fact that is "transition" has already been pushed back once, and simply watching the MSM and its constant bashing of the "screwed up" transition. The give back day will NEVER come.


Past performance is not indicative of future results.

There was a reason for the past delay. Expecting the analog shutoff to "never" happen is just wishful thinking. To a certain extent I could agree with saying that if some major reason were found for a delay the shutoff of analog could be pushed back ... but "never" is an absolute word that makes your prediction absolutely odd.


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

Digital signals actually have better range than analog signals, however because the digital OTA Channels are in UHF, not VHF, some may have to get a different antenna, depending on what they installed.


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

I have DirecTV and I get HDTV perfectly fine with an antenna (and may someday even get HD via DBS), and don't have any SD TVs. I don't care as a practical matter. But, its reality that the SD giveback will never happen. A "crisis" about the "poor" will be declaired. It will never happen.

Watch and see.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The "SD giveback"? It is comments like these that really prove how "in the know" you are about this issue. 

Please check out http://www.dtv.gov/
Specifically http://www.dtv.gov/DTVAct.pdf

By order of congress(b) Terminations of Analog Licenses and Broadcasting.--The Federal Communications Commission shall take such actions as are necessary-
-
(1) to terminate all licenses for full-power television stations in the analog television service, and to require the cessation of broadcasting by full-power stations in the analog television service, by February 18, 2009;​
About 453 days to go ...


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## caccia (Nov 8, 2007)

When the FCC splits the TV band in half they are also effectively removing an enormous amount of "FREE" public access bandwidth currently used for wireless microphones, listening devices, low power audio communications, etc. These TV bands were stabile and predictable for many years. After Feb 2009 literally hundreds of thousand of low power audio devices will be rendered useless. There will be no compensation to the end users as the airwaves are sold for billions. The land of the FREE and the home of the ... FCC.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Tough cookies - those wireless devices are not the "primary assignees" of these particular frequencies. 

BTW - When the transition is completed, there will actually be MORE unused frequency space available. All the fullpower analogs will be down between channels 2-51, and eventually all the analogs (including translators, low power / Class A) will be digital - or off the air. You will see some current analog channels converted to digital, as some stations go back to their analog assignments, and others have to evacuate their digital assignments above channel 51.

Cable can continue to use NTSC / analog channelising, since it is contained within their cable plant. However, they have their own reasons for converting to all digital.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The secondary services (low power and Class A) are already being kicked around by the transition. The new data use of their former channels (and adjacents) takes priority over the television use of the channels.

Full Power and Class A stations need to be off of channels 52-69 by February 18th, 2009. Which means if a station has a digital assignment in the 52-69 range and are planning to move their digital operations to their analog channel that move must be complete by that deadline. Which means we will see many analog channels gone BEFORE the deadline. Probably not much before ... it depends on how well their equipment will adapt to the change. (Will the analog transmit antenna work for their digital license? That requires a case by case answer. I expect a "dimming" of analog stations prior to "lights out" where antennas need to be moved or replaced for digital use on the analog channels.)

Stations with digital assignments in core - even if they are moving to their former analog channels - will have a little more flexibility. I do not see a rule where they are required to vacate their temporary digital channel immediately (as long as it is in core).

Some stations are better positioned than others to make the change. Others will have a little more juggling to do. January 2009 should be interesting as the stations that must move make their final adjustments to prepare for "lights out" (if they don't bail on analog before then).

Then on February 18th all we will see in analog OTA will be low power stations that have not made the cut. Some of those will be waiting for Class A and full power stations to free up channels. I don't expect many to last long.

Knowing the future is uncertain I won't say that there won't be any changes ... but all industry is gearing up for the end of analog OTA TV. Broadcasters are getting ready to move and replacement wireless services want the space.

The way the law is written it would take an act of congress (or perhaps a presidential order) to allow full power/Class A analog broadcasts after February 17th, 2009. In my opinion it would take a Katrina or 9/11 size event to trigger such action - and likely the action would only apply to the affected area (for example, New Orleans broadcasters would be given extra time to build facilities because of a "Katrina" but broadcasters in Minnesota would not benefit unless they had their own disaster). It is VERY unlikely that such action will be taken on a nationwide basis.


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## kf4omc (Apr 11, 2006)

In Tampa out of the 4 networks 
Ch13(SD) has CH12(DT)(FOX)
Ch8(SD) had CH7(DT)(NBC)

The outsider was CBS CH10. They have CH24(DT)
And ABC CH28 has CH27(DT)

Most major networks in this area recived a station next to the Analog one.

CH13 WTVT built a new tower for their DTV antenna. 1600 feet high and only 25 feet from the 1600 foot analog tower.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

James, I pretty much agree with you - I haven't heard any details on what stations will be doing, but your scenarios sound quite plausible to me. As well as your "possible delays".


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Another thing to remember in all this: The most recent major FCC action was a move FORWARD of a date, not a delay. The FCC moved up the date ALL tuners shipped into the US or between states from July to March of this year. They had tried to even move it up to end of last year, but the compromise was reached to help the electronics manufacturers in their normal 12-18 month cycle.

The transition will happen. And happen for most, if not all, stations on the current planned date. (I wouldn't be surprised if a few tiny stations are granted a short waiver--if they've made good faith efforts.)

Happy Holidays!
Tom


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## HIPAR (May 15, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> ... (I wouldn't be surprised if a few tiny stations are granted a short waiver--if they've made good faith efforts.) ...
> 
> Tom


I would be surprised if anyone gets a dispensation. The final channel allocations are planned to mitigate interference on the DTV date so everyone must be where they belong then. The FCC has not been and will not be kind to stragglers. He who is not ready, will relinquish his TV broadcasting license.

--- CHAS


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Chas,
I hear you. I wouldn't be surprised either way. And I've heard no inkling whatsoever of the FCC showing mercy to anyone at this stage.

And on top of that DIRECTV and Dish have both sent warnings to the FCC now about requesting stations finalize and announce there plans soon or face being excluded from carriage immediately. That will be the next sign from the FCC, how they handle this issue.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


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## samhevener (Feb 23, 2006)

It's not going to be the FCC that delays the changeover, it's going to be Congress.


Tom Robertson said:


> Chas,
> I hear you. I wouldn't be surprised either way. And I've heard no inkling whatsoever of the FCC showing mercy to anyone at this stage.
> 
> And on top of that DIRECTV and Dish have both sent warnings to the FCC now about requesting stations finalize and announce there plans soon or face being excluded from carriage immediately. That will be the next sign from the FCC, how they handle this issue.
> ...


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## HIPAR (May 15, 2005)

samhevener said:


> It's not going to be the FCC that delays the changeover, it's going to be Congress.


Don't forget the transition is mandated by federal law. Laws are written and approved by the Congress and signed by the President. The Congress cannot unilaterally nullify a law. The FCC (an arm of Congress) must handle the details of the transition in accordance with the law.

You can be sure there will be pressures on the Congress for special interest considerations. You can also be sure that broadcasters will pressure to get this thing behind them. You can 'chalk up' the occasional snipping on this matter from certain Democrats to be in the category of petty politics.

Inertia is building:

a) The law is in place and it is being enforced
b) The channel allotments are finalized
c) New TVs are DTV capable
d) Converters will be available
e) A contract is in place for the voucher distributions
f) Public Service Announcements will start next year

It's going to happen!

--- CHAS


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## samhevener (Feb 23, 2006)

HIPAR said:


> Don't forget the transition is mandated by federal law. Laws are written and approved by the Congress and signed by the President. The Congress cannot unilaterally nullify a law. The FCC (an arm of Congress) must handle the details of the transition in accordance with the law.
> 
> You can be sure there will be pressures on the Congress for special interest considerations. You can also be sure that broadcasters will pressure to get this thing behind them. You can 'chalk up' the occasional snipping on this matter from certain Democrats to be in the category of petty politics.
> 
> ...


We shall see.


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

Wal Mart here is selling the DTV conversion boxes for 44.95. The coupons will be available 1 Jan, 2008. You will be able to sign up at www.dtv2009.gov for them , probably on 1 Jan.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Get your coupons, then go buy your boxes. Must use within 90 days


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

An interesting article on how to become a certified dealer (able to cash in coupons): http://www.dealerscope.com/story/st...y=Consumer Electronics&section=Unknown&page=1

Cheers,
Tom


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

Michael P said:


> Take it easy boba, he has a legitimate question here.
> 
> I presume you are asking about the source of the local-into-local service. Currently LIL's use the analog signals supplied by the local stations (either by direct connection or OTA to a local "POP" - point of presence, where all the local signals are received and combined to a fiber-optic backbone that goes to the satellite uplink). Once the analog signals go away E* will have to use the digital signals since that's all that the locals will provide.
> 
> .


I am not certain that we know for ure whether DISH is using all analog or a mix of digital and analog.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I am certain they are using a mix. I believe they are mostly analog input ... there are markets with digital receivers and some markets with direct links to the stations.


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