# Say goodbye to fast forwarding your DVR



## cdru (Dec 4, 2003)

Wired has an article running right now that mentions that a bill currently before Congress, HR2391 would prohibit skipping commercials or promotional announcements.

If passed, commercial skipping on DVRs, even if just fast forwarding, could be prohibitted. I'm just waiting for Congress to also pass legislation that prohibits me from changing channels when a commercial might be on. Heaven forbid someone turning the channel over to the HSN...you may never be able to get your DVR off the channel.


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## SAEMike (May 29, 2004)

I doubt this will ever happen. I have been hearing about this happening since I first bought my stand alone Tivo. 

I'm not concerned.


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## BuckeyeChris (Apr 20, 2004)

Let's make sure this doesn't happen by writing your US Senators. Contact your Senators and tell them that HR2391 is a bad idea. http://www.senate.gov/ for contact information.

Edit - Here's a form letter you can copy and paste and send to your Senators. Both my Senators had e-mail contact forms so I imagine they all do.

Dear Senator <Your Senator>:

I urge you to vote no against HR2391, the Intellectual Property Protection Act, should it reach the floor of the Senate for a vote. This bill contains a controversial provision that would prohibit consumers from using technology for skipping any commercials or promotional announcements. Thereby making my Digital Video Recorder (DVR) that allows me to fast-forward through commercials and objectionable content illegal.

Such a provision is an affront to consumer rights and the rights of families to control what they watch in the privacy of their homes. Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely:

<Your Name>


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## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

Done!

This thread should be moved to the General Satellite area so more people can see it.


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## HappyGoLucky (Jan 11, 2004)

Orin Hatch once proposed a bill that would have technically made it illegal to leave the room when a commercial aired, so no more getting up to go to the bathroom!

What we have are people in the Senate and House who owe their job not to their constituents but to the lobbyists and corporations who paid their campaign expenses and fund their pet projects, including groups like the RIAA and MPAA.


On a related front, I've noticed of late several commercials which I cannot "fast forward" through on my HDVR2. I'm watching a show, commercials come on, I start fast-forward, and it stops on some commercial, just freezes. I can hit play and it will begin playing but if I try to fast-forward, it freezes on that commercial. I can hit the 30-second skip or the frame advance and get over that point (seems to be about a 5 or 10 second area) and fast-forward will return to normal function. I've seen this on commercials on only the broadcast networks, not on any other channels, and not all the time. I wonder if there is a way they can "code" a commercial to disable fast-forward on these machines already?


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## Danny R (Jul 5, 2002)

This bill is a good example of how our congressmen hijack legislation.

Look at the differences between version passed before the House and the version introduced to the senate. It has the same name, but internally its a totally different piece of legislation. Basically Hatch took a bill coming over from the House and amended everything it represented and added a new bill.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.2391:


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## SAEMike (May 29, 2004)

HappyGoLucky said:


> On a related front, I've noticed of late several commercials which I cannot "fast forward" through on my HDVR2. I'm watching a show, commercials come on, I start fast-forward, and it stops on some commercial, just freezes. I can hit play and it will begin playing but if I try to fast-forward, it freezes on that commercial. I can hit the 30-second skip or the frame advance and get over that point (seems to be about a 5 or 10 second area) and fast-forward will return to normal function. I've seen this on commercials on only the broadcast networks, not on any other channels, and not all the time. I wonder if there is a way they can "code" a commercial to disable fast-forward on these machines already?


I have heard a few instances like that with DirecTivos over the last few months. I'm guessing that Tivo has made a deal with a few companies to make that happen. It has not yet happened to me, nor have I heard of it happening on the Dish DVRs.


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## BuckeyeChris (Apr 20, 2004)

SAEMike said:


> ... It has not yet happened to me, nor have I heard of it happening on the Dish DVRs.


This hasn't happened (yet) on my Dish 522.


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## Pete K. (Apr 23, 2002)

Soon it will be illegal to:
(1) Leave the room at any time while commercials are on.
(2) Turn off the TV while commericals are on.
(3) Answer the phone/make calls while commericals are on.
(4)Look away and cover your ears while commericals are on.
(5) Speak to your spouse/children/significant other while commericals are on.
(6) Let the cat/dog/gerbil out while commericals are on.

OK...maybe not...but these are as absurd as prohibiting fast forwarding/skipping.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

cdru said:


> Wired has an article running right now that mentions that a bill currently before Congress, HR2391 would prohibit skipping commercials or promotional announcements.
> 
> If passed, commercial skipping on DVRs, even if just fast forwarding, could be prohibitted. I'm just waiting for Congress to also pass legislation that prohibits me from changing channels when a commercial might be on. Heaven forbid someone turning the channel over to the HSN...you may never be able to get your DVR off the channel.


I don't think this will happen but even if it does, it would be impossible to stop the hackers. It would also be impossible to stop programs that are being written for the PC to act as a DVR.

It's a losing battle so they might as well give up now.


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

The movie and music industries once again continue to do everything wrong.

Originally, groups made copies of tapes and sold them to people at a discount. MPAA retaliates with litigation, the retarded "FBI" logo on tapes, and higher prices. Because movie prices rose, more people pirated tapes, so MPAA rose prices higher. This cycle continues with prices slowly rising. However tape piracy was still a relatively small problem. The copies were not very good but they were still watchable considering you could pay only $5 for a movie when it cost $15 for the real tape.

DVDs came along and the industry thought they had things in the bag. Macrovision made it impossible to record DVDs to tapes and people wanted DVDs anyway. Consumer DVD burners were unheard of and a professional standalone one would cost tens of thousands of dollars, burned at 1x, and could not hold a 2 hour movie without compression.

DVD readers were introduced into PCs in the late 90s/2000 or so. Then CSS (DVD encryption) was cracked. Now you could copy the raw MPEG 2 data from a DVD. Computers got more powerful. It was possible to compress this data into a smaller format that fit onto a 700 MB CD. However quality was poor.

Apple introduced the SuperDrive DVD burner in their Power Macintosh G4 and PC makers quickly followed. Now you could copy MPEG 2 data from one disc to the other directly! 100% exact same quality disc!

So now we can make 100% exact quality bootlegs of DVD movies. There was a size limitation of 4.7 GB so long movies could not fit. But computers are getting faster and it was possible to recompress the MPEG-2 data so that it was perhaps 90% quality of the original and fit it on the disc. This was still way better than tapes.

No wait it gets BETTER. Companies are slashing the prices of DSL and Cable. Computers are getting faster. Free (and some open source) codecs based on MPEG-4 such as DivX, XviD, QuickTime MPEG-4, Windows Media are released. Now you can copy from a DVD, encode it quickly to MPEG-4 in an extremely good quality (much better than tape), you can even fit this onto a 700 MB CD.

The final piece of the puzzle came into play: file sharing networks. We all know what happens next. Now you can type Finding Nemo into Gnutella or Kazaa and download a 85% quality DVD movie that fits on a standard 700 MB CD in less than an hour.

And guess what? As the MPAA threatens more litigation, and raises prices, and limits freedoms, more and more people are going to get it free off the internet, and they are not going to look at FBI logo, or previews for other movies they don't want to see. They are going to watch a movie. And that's all they want to do, and most of them would not pirate if they could get the movie for a fair price.

The MPAA is doing it to it's self.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

While this issue is greatly related to politics, keep it relevant. Enough with the crap Steveox, if you can’t discuss this topic is a logical manner, go back to the potpourri Forum.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Maybe the legislation would require the commercials to be viewed one time only then after that they would not have to be viewed again during playback or live tv.


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## the_bear (Oct 18, 2004)

Stations can always refuse to renew contracts with (DBS) providers that sell/lease DVRs, as they threatened to when DVRs were first released. Since free trade and the laws of economics prevented that tactic from working, there is always Congress and tax payer money to help out these poor stations.


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## Anonymous (Jun 19, 2004)

Mike Richardson said:


> There was a size limitation of 4.7 GB so long movies could not fit.


Just a clarification, the Sony DRU-710A and many other DVD burners (dual layer) can hold 8.5 GB. Most comercial DVDs are 6-7 GB. So now you can make direct bit for bit copies of 99% of the DVDs out there (just use SmartRipper or one of the better decrypters first).


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

Anonymous said:


> Just a clarification, the Sony DRU-710A and many other DVD burners (dual layer) can hold 8.5 GB. Most comercial DVDs are 6-7 GB. So now you can make direct bit for bit copies of 99% of the DVDs out there (just use SmartRipper or one of the better decrypters first).


Yes I know, although these are less common.


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## groomsy (Apr 27, 2004)

i have emailed 2 senators in IL, Fitzgerald and Weller, Durbin didnt have an email


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I've found dual layer DVD burners to be a very common sight on store shelves and options on OEM machines. It's the dual layer media that's scarce


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

An "HR" is a House of Representatives bill, not a Senate bill. Don't write your senator on an "HR", contact your U.S. representative.


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## BuckeyeChris (Apr 20, 2004)

Nick said:


> An "HR" is a House of Representatives bill, not a Senate bill. Don't write your senator on an "HR", contact your U.S. representative.


Did you bother to read the article? Currently the Senate Judiciary Committee is reviewing H. R. 2391, also see http://www.publicknowledge.org/pdf/HR_2391.pdf. By all means contact your U.S. Senator! Also, if you Senator is on the Judiciary Committee, like Mike DeWine from Ohio is, all the better to kill it in committee.


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## oyving (Sep 16, 2003)

I don't get it. The bill does not mention skipping commercials. I think what it's talking about is skipping the copyright disclaimers at the beginning of the DVD. Which is already being done. Can anybody quote where it's talking about DVR's, TIVO or Commercials?


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## Pepper (Mar 9, 2004)

Sec. 212.11 seems to say that they are specifically ALLOWING us to skip commercials, as long as the DVR doesn't "permanently" alter the content by removing them. i.e. "automatic pause during record" to skip commercials would be illegal.

Specifically, it prohibits "altering" the existing commercials which sounds like what Tivo is proposing to do with their replacement of skipped commercials with banner ads.

I see another section further down that says the device must announce somehow at the beginning of playback that the content may be altered by the user and thus not be what the provider originally intended the viewer to see.

Am I missing something here?


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## Danny R (Jul 5, 2002)

_Am I missing something here?_

_The bill does not mention skipping commercials._

The bill states:


> `(B) no changes, deletions or additions are made by such computer program or other technology to *commercial advertisements*, or to network or station promotional announcements, that would otherwise be performed or displayed before, during or after the performance of the motion picture


Nothing in the text there about "permanently" deleting things. Simply having the ability to skip a commercial is easily argued by lawyers as a "deletion" to what "would otherwise be performed or displayed".

_Specifically, it prohibits "altering" the existing commercials which sounds like what Tivo is proposing to do with their replacement of skipped commercials with banner ads._

Yes, this is definately covered as well. But the law is overly broad and doesn't specifically exclude a user choosing to skip commercials.

*An "HR" is a House of Representatives bill, not a Senate bill. Don't write your senator on an "HR", contact your U.S. representative*

Nick, this is a House Bill that was passed by the House and is now in the Senate for review. Since it has already passed the House, it keeps its H.R. name and number.

However it was hijacked by Orin Hatch, the original legislation totally crossed out, and the new law added in.


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

Personnally, I think the whole lot in DC should get a life.

They are trying to regulate something without any clue what's good, and written by a bunch of 2-faced lawyers who will exploit loopholes. What's next, a congressional bill to stop the pop-up add blockers on our PCs.

I don't have a problem if all they do is prohibit software that automatically pauses at the beginning of a commercial and resumes at its conclusion - although I think even that kind of regulation is silly. But if they enact it all they will do is spur on the hackers who will find ways of circumventing it.


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## SAEMike (May 29, 2004)

Nick said:


> An "HR" is a House of Representatives bill, not a Senate bill. Don't write your senator on an "HR", contact your U.S. representative.


Actually it's a House Resolution, an "HB" would be a House Bill 

Sorry Nick, but since it was you, someone who is as much a stickler for accuracy and proper grammar as I am, I could not resist!


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## cdru (Dec 4, 2003)

Danny R said:


> Nick, this is a House Bill that was passed by the House and is now in the Senate for review. Since it has already passed the House, it keeps its H.R. name and number.
> 
> However it was hijacked by Orin Hatch, the original legislation totally crossed out, and the new law added in.


Lets say the senate passes it. Does anyone know if the House gets it back to "repass" it since it has absolutely nothing to do with what they originally passed? It just seams that this would be a very easy way to slip in anything into law without the other house having a word in it.


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## HappyGoLucky (Jan 11, 2004)

cdru said:


> Lets say the senate passes it. Does anyone know if the House gets it back to "repass" it since it has absolutely nothing to do with what they originally passed? It just seams that this would be a very easy way to slip in anything into law without the other house having a word in it.


You mean so they could vote for it before they vote against it? According to the GOP, only communist Democrats do that. :sure:


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=1081


> The GOP-controlled Congress is considering legislation to prevent consumers from fast-forwarding thorugh television commercials when viewing it on TiVo and other digital hard drive-based systems. If they give in to the commercial television broadcasters who are pushing this idiotic intrustion, then they will once again have earned the title of "The Stupid Party."...


More


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have now arrived 20 minutes into the future.

First they came for your fast-forward button. Next, they'll come for your off switch.


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