# Name-based recording discussion in regard to the 921



## pcirone (Jan 6, 2003)

It is inconceivable to me that anyone who has ever used name based timers is happy with the 721/921 timers. Please implement this.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Wrong answer. I dislike name based recording. Need much more control to avoid recording the same program multiple times or programs that match, but I don't want.

That being said, I have no objection to adding it as an option.


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## Clinton Fields (Dec 16, 2003)

tnsprin said:


> Wrong answer. I dislike name based recording. Need much more control to avoid recording the same program multiple times or programs that match, but I don't want.


 I have never had that problem with Tivo or UltimateTV


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## Clinton Fields (Dec 16, 2003)

JStanton said:


> Is it an intellectual property issue vs. Tivo? If so, what's the patent # - let the community help you find a non-infringing solution!
> 
> Is it something else? Am I missing a big piece of the implementation required for this?
> 
> ...


It is not an intellectual property issue because everyone is doing it from set top boxes to computer software. Here is a list.

Set top boxes: Tivo,UltimateTV,ReplayTV,Moxi
Computer: SnapStream,Sage, ATI anywhere (coming soon) this will have the same features as the ReplayTV's network feature.

Since they are using some form of linux for the 921 it would not be that hard to put that feature in. Look at the source code fore "myth tv" over at sourceforge.com. After looking at the code and being a programmer myself it would take a team at most 3 days to build the function. As for releasing the function, I would say a go 30 days of unit testing and QA with another 30 days of beta testing would be all it should take to have this function.

With all the advanced features this device has Dish is doing a disservice to the unit by not add this feature because it just make this unit a hi-tech VCR. The only real thing that now separates it form a DVHS unit is dual tuners including HD and a hard drive.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

This thread is moving into the discussion realm. Please take discussion to the general dish pvr forum.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

tnsprin said:


> Wrong answer. I dislike name based recording. Need much more control to avoid recording the same program multiple times or programs that match, but I don't want.
> 
> That being said, I have no objection to adding it as an option.


The GOOD things about name based recording....

1. SuperSized Friends episodes still get recorded in their entirety.
2. Airdate changes (A special Monday two hour "Las Vegas" block next Monday for example) are automatically caught. Season Pass like timers could be created.

The Bad things about name based recording.

1. Tell it to record Queer Eye for The Straight Guy and you could wind up with 20 hours a week of recordings. Most of the same episode.
2. When there is a name change (ie. Enterprise became Star Trek: Enterprise) you don't get the recording.
3. What happens when the 14th showing of Queer Eye conflicts with another night when you have two OTHER timers set up? Which one gets bumped? (Most of my Dishplayer hiccups were due to this).

E* may have decided that timer based recording was more stable and ran with that as an option. One thing they did once that I wish they would implement.... The dishplayer had a message window where they ACTUALLY warned you to redo a Friends timer because it was going to be supersized. They haven't done it since but this would alleviate the problem if they could build in a message window so that they could warn us about these exceptions. It would build up great goodwill as well.

(Sorry, first two paragraphs were discussion, but the last paragraph is a suggestion, so hopefully that is OK)


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

BobMurdoch said:


> The Bad things about name based recording.
> 
> 1. Tell it to record Queer Eye for The Straight Guy and you could wind up with 20 hours a week of recordings. Most of the same episode.


The season pass on Tivo doesn't record repeats of the same episodes. Replay allows you to specify other parameters such as the day of the week and the number of episodes to keep to mitigate this. The point is that other DVRs handle this issue just fine.



BobMurdoch said:


> 2. When there is a name change (ie. Enterprise became Star Trek: Enterprise) you don't get the recording.


How often does that really happen? Almost never. It's a risk I'd gladly take.



BobMurdoch said:


> 3. What happens when the 14th showing of Queer Eye conflicts with another night when you have two OTHER timers set up? Which one gets bumped? (Most of my Dishplayer hiccups were due to this).


According to the Tivo users, you can set priorities for your timers so when I conflict like this occurs, it knows which one you want it to record.

Dennis


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

tnsprin said:


> Wrong answer. I dislike name based recording. Need much more control to avoid recording the same program multiple times or programs that match, but I don't want.


Nope, this is the wrong answer. I never had that problem with Replay.

Dennis


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

BobMurdoch said:


> 1. Tell it to record Queer Eye for The Straight Guy and you could wind up with 20 hours a week of recordings. Most of the same episode.


Bob,

As dbronstein said, the Tivo doesn't do this. The key to the success of the Tivo named based recording has been the fact of not what you can't do but what you CAN do and the various options.

For instance, on top of doing name based recording, there is also the option of timer based recording if you don't "trust" the name based timer. Also, if you want the Tivo to record all of the Queer Eye For The Straight Guy episodes like you stated above, you can have it to that to by using the wishlist which will search out all shows by that name and record them.

So you see, the Tivo name based system is very versatile with the option of timer based if you so desire.


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

How about just being able to cancel the NEXT recording without deleting the repeating schedule!?? I'd love to see that. I'm tired of letting it record re-runs that I know are coming just because there isn't an easy way to have it NOT do that without deleting the repeating event itself. Bah.

- John...


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

On Ultimatetv, anyting recorded on a Auto-Record (like Tivo wishlist) or a Series Record (like Tivo Season Pass), a show that has been recorded will no re-record for thirty days. If the program descriptions match in the guide, they will not re-record. We record Queer Eye on an Auto-Record, and it only records once a week, even though the show repeats several times. There is no additional interaction or babysitting on my part.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

jgoggan said:


> How about just being able to cancel the NEXT recording without deleting the repeating schedule!?? I'd love to see that. I'm tired of letting it record re-runs that I know are coming just because there isn't an easy way to have it NOT do that without deleting the repeating event itself. Bah.
> 
> - John...


That is what the Tivo season pass is all about. It will not record the reruns. Only the new shows.

P.S. Sorry Dish owners. If this discussion progresses any further into Tivo, I will move it to the DirecTV forums.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

I'm a Dish customer and a Tivo lover. I can tell you the way Tivo does there recordings is perfect. I plan on getting the 921 for Hdtv purposes. I love my programing with Dish but I think there DVR services lack compared to Tivo
interms of recording options. I'm getting the 921 because I'm laying down some serouis cash for HDTV might as well do it right and get the 921 also! I'm hoping Dish a) hires some Tivo programers away or B) Works some type of deal out with Tivo one day, but I know B will proably never happen. I wonder if part of the problem isn't the program guid. Tivo has you make a call and get the info and I know that costs alot of cash for Tivo to set up and thats why they charge extra. Dish seems to use the Sat to download info and I always found that anoying on my non DVR rec.! Does the Dish DVR recievers work difrent on terms of downloading the program from th Sat?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Yes, they do. Up to 9 days of guide data is stored locally on the hard drives of the Dish DVR receivers. So, while the receiver still downloads guide data from the satellites, it's just to refresh the 9 day supply that's stored locally.


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## retiredTech (Oct 27, 2003)

My 2 cents

There is a flaw in name based recording , that every post I've
seen doesn't address.

If you are only interested in series programs, and KNOW the name of that series, then name based is less effort.

But what about programs that are new or a one of a kind. Not all programs worth watching are some series. I personally dislike most series programs. I like a wide variety of programs and what I am interested in could not be determined strictly by name or even category.
I enjoy researching and determining WHAT I watch on a case by case basis.
I know that the "Tivo" (or the other name based boxes) would NOT pick out "all and only" what I want to record and watch.
I guess those who have less time and think reading the guide is a chore,
would think I'm nuts.
But you know not all cars are made with automatic transmissions. 
Some actually like to do the shifting.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

retiredTech said:


> My 2 cents
> 
> But what about programs that are new or a one of a kind. Not all programs worth watching are some series. I personally dislike most series programs.


You would be surprised at what the Tivo can do. After a certain amount of time, the Tivo learns what type of programming you like and automatically records it for you. This feature can be a pain sometimes and be disabled but I have come to trust it more now that I have had my Tivos for a couple of months. The auto record feature has already found some "one of a kind" shows that I never knew existed. It also found the third movie in a trilogy that I have been looking for for many years.

I don't really want to go too much deeper into this in the Dish forum. All I can tell you is that the name based recording way of life is much different than timer based.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

retiredTech said:


> But what about programs that are new or a one of a kind. Not all programs worth watching are some series. I personally dislike most series programs. I like a wide variety of programs and what I am interested in could not be determined strictly by name or even category.
> I enjoy researching and determining WHAT I watch on a case by case basis.
> I know that the "Tivo" (or the other name based boxes) would NOT pick out "all and only" what I want to record and watch.
> I guess those who have less time and think reading the guide is a chore,
> ...


You can still do this on Tivo or Replay or any other DVR with name-based recording. You find the show you want to watch and create a one-time timer for it.

You miss the point that other DVRs have name-based recording *in addition to* time-based recording, not instead of it. You can still do everything you've said you want to do.

Dennis


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

Retired Tech your missing some of the point us Tivo users are saying. We are saying ADD these features not ADD these and take away those. If you like you way of setting up timers keep doing it. Name based recording work very well. I'll give you an example. I like Friends and I have the "super station" pack so Friends is on like 10 a day. With name based recordings I can look up friends by name and see every episodes time and date, episode title and a description plus episode number. I can then pick out what ones I want it to record and not record. If this is to much work make a season pass set it's priority listing and whether you want reruns or not and off you go. Tivo still has a regular guide as well with Dish grid style and the original style that you can look threw if you want. It also has Timer based recordings as well that does everything my dish rec can do on timers. I love Dish Nets programing but there Dish DVRs need better software still. So far from what I've heard there basically digital VCRs. I have Tivo and I love it and won't give it up and I love Dish programing won't give it up. I plan on getting a 921 because you can't beat a 250 gig two tuner HDTV compatible receiver, but Dish NEEDS to get name based recordings or they should not charge a Video on Demand fee and we all know that!


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

No, you know that, those of us who don't care about name based timers don't really care.


Ken


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

I don't know how many times we need to go down this road. Everyone has their opinion as to how timers should be set on DVR's. If you are happy with timer based recording, that's fine. What really kind of gets my goat is that people who cut on name based recording have never used a Tivo for any length of time. 

I have owned a Dishplayer, 501, 508, 721 and now a DirecTivo. I see both sides of the fence. Both types of timers have their strengths a weaknesses. It's kind of pointless to argue which one is better because its all a matter of preference and how they are used.


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## Clinton Fields (Dec 16, 2003)

generalpatton78 said:


> Dish NEEDS to get name based recordings or they should not charge a Video on Demand fee and we all know that!


I agree with you 1000%. Dish on demand is not some new technology it is a renaming of VCR functions. The only difference is the hard drive and computer were able to do this three years before Tivo came out. What set Tivo apart form the computer was the way it found what you wanted to record and took time out of the equation. The networks could never stick to a schedule so the fact that Tivo worked around that was a major plus. I hope Dish's competitors capitalize on the fact that they are charging for this, because one of two things will happen, they will have to stop charging for this and the second is they will add name base recording. Either one is both good for Dish and the consumer; isn't competition great?


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

Chris Blount said:


> Bob,
> 
> As dbronstein said, the Tivo doesn't do this. The key to the success of the Tivo named based recording has been the fact of not what you can't do but what you CAN do and the various options.
> 
> ...


Well, in that case you could always manually edit the timer based recording too in order to record extra-long episodes(I frequently do this with my 501) or sporting events that run over(almost never record sports, I hate taped sports). Both systems need some massaging and intervention to work flawlessly there's no way around it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the DishPVR(DVR whatever) timer-based recording based on the program guide. When a program runs over the program guid and info screen for the name of the program changes to the next program. Name based recording in that case would still fail. Dish would somehow need to have the data stream updated with the name of the current program. That sounds hard.


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## jcrash (Jul 22, 2002)

At least a little more on topic here - my problem with the presentation of timers in the 721 and thus the 921 is the way they are displayed. When you see a list of timers, even though it has stored which program is supposed to be on in that weekly slot, it instead displays in the list the date/time/channel of the show. After a while using these things, date/time/channel quickly becomes uninformative. The listing of upcoming scheduled recordings should show the name in the list! Currently, the only way to see the name is to go to edit the scheduled recording. This is about as bass-ackwards a way of doing it as I can imagine with the only option worse being to not have the name anywhere even when you go to edit the recording.

If we can't have name based recordings, can we at least have name LISTED recordings?


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

jeffwtux said:


> Both systems need some massaging and intervention to work flawlessly there's no way around it.


Uh, no they don't. The only way name-based recording fails is when the guide isn't correct or the show runs over (like sporting events).

Dennis


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

Yes Tivo handles this well. Most of the time Tivo picks up on extra long runs of show. A great example is friends and how allot of the time it run for 36 mins instead of 30. the Tivo picks this up and will record all of it but you always have the over time feature you can use.


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

dbronstein: well, from what I have seen, the guide is incorrect numerous times especially the special presidential debates. That's what I was saying, DishPVRs fail when the guide is incorrect(even for a minute), name based recording fails there too. From what I can see the advantage of name-based comes in the season-pass recording, as long as it doesn't record duplicates. If your show changes time-slots, you don't have to change a thing with Tivo, but you do with Dish. Frankly, that's not an issue with me.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Chris Blount said:


> Bob,
> 
> As dbronstein said, the Tivo doesn't do this. The key to the success of the Tivo named based recording has been the fact of not what you can't do but what you CAN do and the various options.
> 
> ...


I stand corrected.... My only experience with name based recording was the original Dishplayer. Insert Groan here.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

I guess my point is that there is demand for these features. Some people like timer based recordings fine keep all those features but there is huge demand for Name based recordings and other search functions. Does any of the Dish DVRs have a search function at all? I mean is it wrong for customers to expect better software with more options if they continue to pay extra every month for it? So far from what I've heard about the Dish DVR is there timers work just like my 301 timers do when it's hooked up to my VCR. So why should anybody pay more money for Video on Demand if the hardware is whats doing the new features and not some monthly service? So I guess I'm saying is Dish truly want to beat tivo and it's competition then there monthly service better provide better software with more features or drop the monthly fee for providing nothing.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The dish 5xx, 721 and 921 receivers all have a very good search function.


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

Yes and no. I try searching for "Monk" to record and get everything with "monkeys" and various other things. It's a fairly limited search, IMO...

- John...


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

I've yet to see in any forum an explanation as to why Dish or others don't do more Tivo-like functionality. People often cite "Tivo has patents" but I've never seen any actual proof offered (like the patent numbers covering their name-based recording and other Tivo-unique features). Maybe it would be a copyright issue...

Yes, Tivo has DVR patents but so does Dish/Echostar. In fact, if you look at some of the patents taken out by Tivo and Echostar they both seem to have claims on DVR technology, which just points out the hopeless (hapless?) absurdity of the US Patent office when it comes to high-tech patents.


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## EdV (Sep 4, 2003)

Time for a little Tivo humor.

Watched a "Becker" episode a while back. It starts out with one of the characters setting up his new Tivo system and he's explaining to everyone how smart the system is because it will figure out what he likes to watch and then automatically record shows for him. He's all excited.

Later in the show, he comes on the scene and is complaining bitterly. Seems after two weeks of use, everything the Tivo is recording for him is gay oriented programs.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

jgoggan said:


> Yes and no. I try searching for "Monk" to record and get everything with "monkeys" and various other things. It's a fairly limited search, IMO...
> 
> - John...


I agree, the search function on the 721 isn't that good. It also brings up listings for channels you don't subscribe to.

Dennis


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

EdTV that had a similar episode on "The Mind of the Married Man". I think people seem to forget that you can turn Tivo suggestions off at any time. I have enough season passes set up that my tivo records about 20 our of 24 hours of the day. I have upgraded my tivo to hold over 250 hours of content! I did read the big review of the 921 and am very impressed with the system overall! However if it wasn't for Dish's great programing I'd be a DirecTivo customer!


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Speaking as someone who originally fell in love with Tivo, and then bought two Replays and now uses ONLY three different DISH units, I would have no objection to the addition of name-based recording. I used to really like the fact that my PVR's would guess at what I might want to watch, and sometimes they were actually helpful in that area, but when I abandoned them for DISH units, I never really missed it all that much. I found the capacity, PQ, and improved interface just much more appealing, and wouldn't dream of owning a standalone or even a DirecTivo that worked with DISH.

I agree that the search on DISH units isn't as well implemented as Replay or Tivo, but that is certainly not enough to tip the scales. It is lightning fast, however, and having a keyboard hooked up makes it a breeze.

I have found that I lose or miss fewer programs when I spend two minutes a week clicking on the shows I want to record, than I did when I let Tivo do it all, and name-based works just fine for that. Also, it works much better in instances where due to unscheduled program time changes such as a presidential address you need to roll with the punches to make sure you can crash record and get the shows without getting the end clipped off. Tivo never could do that successfully or gracefully, nor could it ever really tell me whether there was enough space left to insure that certain recordings would even start.


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## halfportion (Jul 13, 2003)

That same bit was also done on King of Queens. "My tivo thinks i'm gay!"



EdV said:


> Time for a little Tivo humor.
> 
> Watched a "Becker" episode a while back. It starts out with one of the characters setting up his new Tivo system and he's explaining to everyone how smart the system is because it will figure out what he likes to watch and then automatically record shows for him. He's all excited.
> 
> Later in the show, he comes on the scene and is complaining bitterly. Seems after two weeks of use, everything the Tivo is recording for him is gay oriented programs.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

dbronstein said:


> Nope, this is the wrong answer. I never had that problem with Replay.
> 
> Dennis


The original poster said "It is inconceivable to me that anyone who has ever used name based timers is happy with the 721/921 timers." This is wrong. Lots of people don't need name based. And some of the early name based recorders, e.g. Dishplayer, were bad, so bad the 721/921 looks good.

Personally I don't even care what program is on, I record the entire lineup for a network, then later pick out what I intend to watch. Simple Timers work for this.

If you are going to ask for Name-based, be specific on feature. Don't say Replay or Tivo like. If Dish were to directly copy one of these they "might" get into trouble. Instead get in to details.

One of the features mentioned by some is going to be trouble on Dishnetwork. That of picking up a program that has its time shifted. Dishnetwork is going to have to have someone FULL TIME to correct their current EPG. They are often off as it is, and currently on there DVRs, only pick up the changes once a day.

So describe the specific name-based features or we may see again the limited name based features of the Dishplayer.


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

tnsprin said:


> The original poster said "It is inconceivable to me that anyone who has ever used name based timers is happy with the 721/921 timers." This is wrong. Lots of people don't need name based.


Um, since you are quoting him, you might want to actually read it. He said that people that have USED named based timers basically wouldn't be happy to go back. He didn't say that all people NEED name based. He just said that once you've really used name based times, he doesn't see how anyone could go back to not having them.

So, calling him "wrong" really doesn't make sense. He didn't state a "fact" -- he stated that he just couldn't imagine being happy if you've had name based and then lost them on some other unit. That isn't "wrong" -- it's just opinion on the importance of name-based recording once you have really experienced that feature.



> Personally I don't even care what program is on, I record the entire lineup for a network, then later pick out what I intend to watch. Simple Timers work for this.


And if you don't see that that isn't quite "normal", then you'll never understand anyone's point about name-based timers. heh.

Also -- you always record just one network then? You never have a night where you watch Fox AND NBC? Or did you just buy 4 PVRs so that you can record the entire lineup for all of the four majors?



> One of the features mentioned by some is going to be trouble on Dishnetwork. That of picking up a program that has its time shifted. Dishnetwork is going to have to have someone FULL TIME to correct their current EPG. They are often off as it is, and currently on there DVRs, only pick up the changes once a day.


Well, too bad if that might "be trouble." That is another problem that needs to be corrected. I think that is needed REGARDLESS of name-based timers! The fact that that might be needed as a side effect to name-based timers is quite fine with me...



> So describe the specific name-based features or we may see again the limited name based features of the Dishplayer.


I do agree with that. People should be specific about features at some point -- as opposed to always going "like Blah or Blah does it."

- John...


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I am a Dish 508 user and am very happy with the performance of the guide and recording features. However, overall I really do think name based recording has the edge. 

That said, neither do what really needs to be done. It is all based on what the program guide says. So if a program starts late because of breaking news, or a presidential address that goes long, you will still miss the program or the end of it even with named based recording.

There may be an advantage to timer recording. Say the program you want is not shown and you did not know it, the replacement program might be something you would want to see. With Name based I assume nothing would be recorded for that time.


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

"monk" is in the word "monkeys", is it not? It's a simple but effective search. Searching for "onkey" would also find things that contain "monkeys" and "monkey" and "dfhzghdghghdonkeyddhdghdhgdgh"


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

Mike Richardson said:


> "monk" is in the word "monkeys", is it not? It's a simple but effective search. Searching for "onkey" would also find things that contain "monkeys" and "monkey" and "dfhzghdghghdonkeyddhdghdhgdgh"


Yes, I understand the logic behind it. He had said that the 5xx units had "a very good search function." I was simply replying that, while it "works", I don't find it "very good" since it is so very simplistic.

You call it "effective" and I'm not even sure I'd give it that. It isn't very effective when it finds so many things that you aren't looking for on so many channels that you don't even subscribe to...

So, it may be "simple" and almost "effective" for many things, but I certainly wouldn't call it efficient or "a very good search function." It really isn't very good, in my opinion...

- John...


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

I agree it should not show channels you don't subscribe to, that's just annoying.

But how else is the search going to work? Returning "monkeys" when searching for "monk" seems logical. Do you want it to return shows that have the exact word "monk"? Try putting a space character before or after "monk", such as " monk" or "monk ".


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

Mike Richardson said:


> But how else is the search going to work? Returning "monkeys" when searching for "monk" seems logical.


Um, how about a checkbox for exact name only match? Or, at least, whole word match only (so that "Monk" would match "Monk Baseball", but not "Monkey Shines")?



> Do you want it to return shows that have the exact word "monk"? Try putting a space character before or after "monk", such as " monk" or "monk ".


Interesting thought. "MONK<SPACE>" actually does work for an exact word match. Now I only have to skip over a page or two of "Bulletproof Monk" listing on PPV before I find what I want! But, still better -- so I'll keep that trick in mind for the future. Thanks!

But I still wouldn't call it a "very good search function." I call it a very simple search function that works decent for what it is intended. 

My main thing isn't the searching though. Mine is the ability to detect time changes and such. I always end up with messed up Will & Grace and Friends episodes when they do the extended ones...

Or, even bigger for me -- I'd really like to be able to just cancel the NEXT recording of a show (i.e. when I know it is a re-run) without messing up the repeating timer... 

- John...


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

tnsprin said:


> The original poster said "It is inconceivable to me that anyone who has ever used name based timers is happy with the 721/921 timers." This is wrong. Lots of people don't need name based. And some of the early name based recorders, e.g. Dishplayer, were bad, so bad the 721/921 looks good.


And you said "Need much more control to avoid recording the same program multiple times or programs that match, but I don't want." This is blatantly wrong. You have that control with name-based DVRs.



tnsprin said:


> Personally I don't even care what program is on, I record the entire lineup for a network, then later pick out what I intend to watch. Simple Timers work for this.


Hmm. You say "Need much more control to avoid recording the same program multiple times or programs that match, but I don't want." Then you just go and record an entire night of programs and just watch what you want from that. So you are recording a bunch of stuff you don't want anyway.



tnsprin said:


> One of the features mentioned by some is going to be trouble on Dishnetwork. That of picking up a program that has its time shifted. Dishnetwork is going to have to have someone FULL TIME to correct their current EPG. They are often off as it is, and currently on there DVRs, only pick up the changes once a day.


This is a strawman. I used Replay for 2 years before getting a 721 and the Dish guide is just as accurate as the Replay. Replay only updates once a day, and I'm pretty sure that is the same for Tivo. Very few schedule changes are made on less than a day's notice.



tnsprin said:


> So describe the specific name-based features or we may see again the limited name based features of the Dishplayer.


We've all said it a million times. Read this thread and all the others.

Dennis


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

dbronstein said:


> And you said "Need much more control to avoid recording the same program multiple times or programs that match, but I don't want." This is blatantly wrong. You have that control with name-based DVRs.


You only have this control with SOME name-based DVR's. As I said please specify how you want DISH to implement such a feature. Since I don't use any of the newer such name-based recorders I don't know what people like and would recommend be implemented. e.g should it
a) only match once a week?
b) only match if its on a specific station?
c) match say the hd broadcast when its also on SD. Even if thats on later?
d) automatically pad a few minutes.
e) Guess at similar programs!

Get specific

My complaint about EPG is critical not a "strawman". Many of the programs I would most want to watch are on networks where the EPG has most often been totally wrong. I search for the programs using internet sites, and currently set timers based on those searchs. The programs often never even showed in the EPG at all. And OTA on DISH's EPG is even worse.



dbronstein said:


> ..llion times. Read this thread and all the others.
> 
> Dennis


Don't assume. Of course I read it and the others. Doesn't mean I necessarily agree with what some people are saying.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

tnsprin said:


> You only have this control with SOME name-based DVR's. As I said please specify how you want DISH to implement such a feature. Since I don't use any of the newer such name-based recorders I don't know what people like and would recommend be implemented. e.g should it
> a) only match once a week?
> b) only match if its on a specific station?
> c) match say the hd broadcast when its also on SD. Even if thats on later?
> ...


Okay - the Tivo season pass. It records each episode of a show once, regardless of time or channel, and doesn't record reruns. So if the same episode is on 5 times, it just gets recorded once. But if the show changes time, channel or duration, it still gets recorded. Is this specific enough for you?



tnsprin said:


> My complaint about EPG is critical not a "strawman". Many of the programs I would most want to watch are on networks where the EPG has most often been totally wrong. I search for the programs using internet sites, and currently set timers based on those searchs. The programs often never even showed in the EPG at all. And OTA on DISH's EPG is even worse.


Can you provide some specifics? I have never seen an EPG be as bad as you claim they are, especially for OTA channels. It might be off if you're looking a week out, but by the time the show comes on, the EPG is almost always correct, barring last-minute things like presidential speeches.



tnsprin said:


> Don't assume. Of course I read it and the others. Doesn't mean I necessarily agree with what some people are saying.


You don't have to agree, but if you've read all the threads then you should know what specific features people want.

Dennis


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

Dbronstein is correct. I've had DBS for 8 years now and I've never encountered an EPG that bad off. There have been occasions (mainly sports BS comes to mind) that the EPG has been off, but 99% of the time, the EPG is accurate for everything I've ever wanted to watch.

Maybe some bassackwards company like Primestar couldn't keep the EPG straight, but DTV and E* have always kept the EPG pretty accurate the majority of the time.

As for specific functionality on the NBR, dbronstien has again pretty much covered it. However, one additional thing that needs to be added for E*'s receivers to be even remotely competitive is the ability to set your timers over the internet. If you could stream your video to another 721 or 921, that would be even better... ala the Tivo HMO.

Other PVRs can do all these things, so it's not impossible (and it's not really that hard either)... the fact that E* doesn't have it is simply because they are too lazy and/or don't care about the customers, because they have them locked into one supplier for the IRDs. If there was any sort of competition in the E* IRD market, E*'s IRDs would never sell a single unit, except to the uninformed masses who don't care.


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## bunkers (Dec 16, 2002)

How about some the following features be added or considered?

(1) EPG locking -- what this means is that when you pick the show, it would optionally allow you to "lock" it -- which might mean that a daily check (or when new EPG information is released) is done to compare the latest EPG start, stop times with those in the locked timer (s). If they differ, then you might be able to manually adjust it in a timer conflicts/adjustments screen (if you wanted) or have it optionally take the latest start,stop times automatically. Obviously, if the auto adjustment created a timer conflict, then it would go the manual timer conflict/adjustment screen which is not automatically popped up of forced upon you ... but rather there to assist and allow you to catch problems if you interested and willing.

(2) I also thought that a "search based" timer might be possible, but might only work if the results could be filtered appropriately. For example, options like: Use the first occurance each day, or each week, or only if channel is one I subscribe to, or only if the results does not create a conflict, etc.

(3) I think being able to modify the existing timer setup slightly to specify "New shows only" (denoted by NEW in the EPG) might be a nice enhancement. Maybe even a filter to specify the year (2002,2003) might be nice also.


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

Re: your "EPG Locking" suggestion

Not trivial to implement. The current way of recording future programs isn't very complex and is not much more complex that how a VCR does future recordings. To implement anything different requires the added capability of being able to uniquely identify a program by more than just the name, which means a whole new level of software in the box and a whole new ballgame as far as guide data goes.

Example: Your favorite episode of "Friends" was to be recorded on chan. 123 at 8:30PM, 01/15/04, but 3 days before this date a program "Fiends: The Loves of Ghengis Kahn" is now in this time slot. Obviously, "Friends" has moved, but how can it detect that the episode you wanted to see is no longer occurring at this time?

If it were to just use the name, it might find 17 more programs named "Friends" in the span of the available guide data - which one is the one it should now record (that certain one that you wanted)?

Tivo can handle this because they have some method of not only tracking the name of a program but creating a unique ID for each episode. Thus, if that particular episode of "Friends" that you wanted to record moves out 8 days from now it will still record it properly even though there are 3 other "Friends" episodes that will be broadcast before you desired episode is finally shown.

As you can see, more than just the software in the box will need changed- the format of the guide data will have to change. Maintaining guide data this detailed is important (read: $$$) and is best farmed out to an outside service company- having "Harvey the part-time webmaster" performing the "new guide data updates" just isn't going to cut it.

If Dish goes to this kind of capability I think people might feel better about paying the DVR fee.


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## Clinton Fields (Dec 16, 2003)

tnsprin said:


> The original poster said "It is inconceivable to me that anyone who has ever used name based timers is happy with the 721/921 timers." This is wrong. Lots of people don't need name based. And some of the early name based recorders, e.g. Dishplayer, were bad, so bad the 721/921 looks good.


See the problem is, Dish has never really made good equipment. Consumer reports has them dead last (among pay tv services) in the reliabilty catagory. That takes talent to be that bad. When I lived in Europe, I was a Sky TV subscriber (News Corp.) and News Corp put two competitors out of business. If you own Dish stock I would sell it now because DirecTV is going to hit the ground running with it's new owners. From what I have seen in the past,News Corp gives away high-end Equipment I.E. HDTV and DVR setop boxes over here (over in Europe it was interactive boxes) and a big reduction of programming Fees. Their model is to lose money on obtaining customers for several years until their competition yells "no-mas". Dish has no chance unless they get better/more equipment and better customer service. DirecTV is going to clean Dish's Clock. I give Dish one year before they feel the pain and another before Charlie unloads Dish the latter of which would be good for current subscribers.


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## bunkers (Dec 16, 2002)

toad57,

I agree that implementing something like the "EPG lock" that I mentioned isn't trivial -- but what I was suggesting would be significantly EASIER to implement (and far less perfect) than what TIVO does and would not require the addition of a unique ID for each show.

I was just suggesting that the following (fairly simple) things be done:

(1) After each EPG download/refresh, we do the following if you have enabled EPG locking capability:

(1a) You pull the list of timers which are using the "EPG lock" from the list of all timers.
In particular, you just use the name of the show as it was stored when the timer
was originally created. Yes, this can change, but not very often. Again, this
solution isn't perfect, but its the 80/20 or 90/10 rule at work.
(1b) If no timers are returned, then your done, otherwise loop through each unique Channel, Start, Stop, Name combinition from the timers screen having the "epg lock" checked/enabled.

(2) A note to keep thing simple, round all start/stop times to the nearest hour or half hour -- for example, if you ended a show 3 minutes late (say at 11:33), it would still use 11:30 instead. If you started 1 minute early (say at 10:59), it would use 11:00 instead. This keeps comparisions simple, but isn't perfect, no. But remember 90/10 rule.

(3) Compare each channel, rounded-start, rounded-stop, Name combination against the latest EPG information. If the guide information no longer matches, then tag the timer with a potential "conflict" attribute. Thats it. If the EPG information matches (as it would MOST of the time, then leave the conflict attribute set to "ok").

(4) So then a user can manually see a conflicted timer in timers screen because it might have an asterisk next to it in the listing, simple simple and easy to add.

(5) If a user decides to fix this possible problem, then they can go into a new conflict resolutino screen which then just allows the use a few simple options:

* (A) Syncronize name and times with EPG, just does the look up again and uses the name name and start,stop times
* (B) Search for show -- just throws you into the search screen with the old show and you can edit the name if you want and if you find it elsewhere, you can manually select and have the new show name/time be used to replace the old.
* (C) Do nothing 

(5-A) Take the name information from EPG and keep everything else the same. This handles name changes and possible time changes. Again, only EPG start/stop times were compared, so even if you had added extra minutes at the beginning and/or ending, the rounding should make the shows match when compared. The rounding would be limited to rounding 3 minutes or less, so that real program changes (i.e. show is super sized to +15 minutes) would still be caught accurately. 

(5-B) not much coding here, since your reusing the search capability and just trying to relocate a show. This option might not even need to exist. Maybe just knowing the show changed is enough to allow you to manually deleted it and then add it again yourself like to did originally.

(5-C) maybe its different but you know and don't care -- leave it alone.

My point is -- this ISN'T name based recording by any means, but an EPG lock feature would really be more an EPG validation capabilty which is 90-95% accurate and just lets you know when things are no longer correct according the the EPG information when compared to your timers. This doesn't require any additional EPG data or costs whatsoever.

Again, realizing the DISH doesn't create the greatest software and anything beyond fairly simple usually isn't implemented or added -- this is just a simple enhanement to 90-95% fill the occaisional mishaps created by a non name-based timer system.

You can't honestly say that this very simplified enhancement would be a really big effort to do. Its a simple loop only performed when EPG data is refereshed and only performed if you want it to. Its just a simple validation.


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