# New DirecTV Hardware?



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

I got an email to do a survey from DirecTV Research Team. Not from DirecTV.com but from "[email protected]" with the text at the bottom of the email "This email is from [email protected], a third-party email run by Research Results Inc. DIRECTV Research Team has contracted SKIM, an independent research firm, to conduct this survey. The information gathered will be used for internal purposes only with DIRECTV Research Team. If you have any questions at all regarding this survey or if you have any technical difficulties, please email SKIM at [email protected]."

First thing I thought was spam or even possible a scam but I decided to go through the survery anyway. Pretty sure it is not a scam as it was just a simple survey.

About midway through I got to this part:










Hmmm...interesting. So I continued to the next page asking me to click the top 3 from this list.










Further on and most interesting were these asking me to pick the top two I would prefer.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Sounds like an updated client that's maybe in a smaller form factor so works more like a dongle?

Probably the only thing other than size it could improve upon that would matter is something that supports wireless 4K.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

This sounds pretty sweet too:

Backup satellite signal protection
• Continue watching TV over broadband if there's a
signal interruption
• Forget worrying about weather-related issues
• Seamlessly switch from satellite to streaming and
never miss a moment


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

Funny, I asked for the BB backup almost 10 years ago from El Segundo engineering. Now they need to get rid of the big ugly HS17 and do something State of the Art, with 4K HDMI output etc. Directv is so behind.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Streaming backup is already on employee accounts according to a couple of my friends.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

You can stream right with the DirecTV app but not directly to a TV. Just a phone or tablet and on iOS you can send it to the TV via Airplay if your TV supports it. But not every channel can be streamed via that method.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> You can stream right with the DirecTV app but not directly to a TV. Just a phone or tablet and on iOS you can send it to the TV via Airplay if your TV supports it. But not every channel can be streamed via that method.


Maybe you misunderstood or I wasn’t clear. Employee accounts have streaming backup for around 50 channels. If it rains and knocks those 50 channels out it switches over to stream and you miss nothing but the few seconds it takes to switch over.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

On what device?


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> On what device?


Genie devices.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

If that is available on current device why can't everyone do it?


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> If that is available on current device why can't everyone do it?


He said they were testing it is all I know


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Sounds like the rumored Osprey Sat Version they have been talking about for a while Best guess 6-12 months out


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> On what device?


His friends are full of crap Employees get the same builds as the edgecutter peeps and no one has this. And I know this is full of crap because the rep there is quite clear of what builds get pushed to employees


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> Sounds like the rumored Osprey Sat Version they have been talking about for a while Best guess 6-12 months out


I hope that works on the HR-54.


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## glrush (Jun 29, 2002)

b4pjoe said:


> This sounds pretty sweet too:
> 
> Backup satellite signal protection
> • Continue watching TV over broadband if there's a
> ...


"But it would be unfair to those who don't have broadband", says someone on this board, probably.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

glrush said:


> "But it would be unfair to those who don't have broadband", says someone on this board, probably.


Someone lol. Multiple people


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> I hope that works on the HR-54.


I’ll take a non-in the know non-informed guess that it will only work with the HS17 in a move to get people away from the older receivers and trigger a bunch of new 2 year commitments at a time NFL ST is going away to try to keep a max exodus from happening. But that is just my own guess. No evidence though.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

glrush said:


> "But it would be unfair to those who don't have broadband", says someone on this board, probably.


Would these be the same ones saying no new hardware is coming because TPTB wouldn't waste the money on it?


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> I’ll take a non-in the know non-informed guess that it will only work with the HS17 in a move to get people away from the older receivers and trigger a bunch of new 2 year commitments at a time NFL ST is going away to try to keep a max exodus from happening. But that is just my own guess. No evidence though.


works on all genies. I specifically asked.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> I hope that works on the HR-54.


I just went back and looked at the part with the wireless 4K and it specifies it would connect wirelessly to a Genie/Genie 2. So I guess it will work with the HR54.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

b4pjoe said:


> • Continue watching TV over broadband if there's a
> signal interruption





west99999 said:


> Streaming backup is already on employee accounts according to a couple of my friends.


you kind of get that now with start over does that block rewind / fastforword on some channels?


b4pjoe said:


> I’ll take a non-in the know non-informed guess that it will only work with the HS17 in a move to get people away from the older receivers and trigger a bunch of new 2 year commitments at a time NFL ST is going away to try to keep a max exodus from happening. But that is just my own guess. No evidence though.


2 year commitments to ship out an newer main box? say you have an 54 the 2 year commitment better have an 2 year discount locked in or some people may say well cable has that X1 one box and 2 year price locking.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

west99999 said:


> works on all genies. I specifically asked.


will they give one box for free 1 / not count an older genie as an TV box?


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Cool that it will work on the HR-54 thanks for checking guys! The only bad thing with DirecTV Stream is if the Internet goes down, you're screwed. Unless you would use you would use your phone as backup.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

JoeTheDragon said:


> 2 year commitments to ship out an newer main box? say you have an 54 the 2 year commitment better have an 2 year discount locked in or some people may say well cable has that X1 one box and 2 year price locking.


DirecTV has always done a 2 year commitment for an upgrade and I would guess this would be considered an upgrade if you get one to replace another receiver. You could ask for a discount I suppose. Don’t know if you would get it though.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

b4pjoe said:


> DirecTV has always done a 2 year commitment for an upgrade and I would guess this would be considered an upgrade if you get one to replace another receiver. You could ask for a discount I suppose. Don’t know if you would get it though.


what is the plan when the 54's die and all they have is 17's or newer??? 2 year lockin to replace there box + get hardware needed to view tv on the tv it has hooked to when there rented box failed?
retention will need to fight off people saying well dish / cable will give me an very good price for that 2 year lockin or they don't have 2 year lockins


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

I don't think replacing a box that fails triggers a new commitment.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

b4pjoe said:


> I don't think replacing a box that fails triggers a new commitment.


but what if you need to replace an 54 with an 17 + min box?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

compnurd said:


> Employees get the same builds as the edgecutter peeps and no one has this.


You don't know how new FW /test FW/ edgecutter FW are distributing and did made blatant statement.
If they want, they would pinpoint one particular IRD for FW update and you'll know nothing about it.
Current version of FW monitor cannot catch such FW push.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

P Smith said:


> You don't know how new FW /test FW/ edgecutter FW are distributing and did made blatant statement.
> If they want, they would pinpoint one particular IRD for FW update and you'll know nothing about it.
> Current version of FW monitor cannot catch such FW push.


Again. They are quite clear on what is being pushed to employees


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

compnurd said:


> Again. They are quite clear on what is being pushed to employees


You sound like a know it all who knows nothing.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

compnurd said:


> They are


Who are "they" ?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Who are "they" ?


The Directv Employee who sends out the communication


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Who are "they" ?


 Right? Why would they specifically tell you of all people what software they’re testing? I thought the edge cutter stuff died out a long time ago? He can say whatever he wants. I know several employees very well and they are 100% correct and have no reason to lie and are not confusing this with the osprey streaming either. They said that would eventually work with satellite as well.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

west99999 said:


> You sound like a know it all who knows nothing.


From the person who gets his info according to a couple of friends


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

compnurd said:


> From the person who gets his info according to a couple of friends


 please come back and apologize after you find out you’re wrong.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

west99999 said:


> Right? Why would they specifically tell you of all people what software they’re testing? I thought the edge cutter stuff died out a long time ago? He can say whatever he wants. I know several employees very well and they are 100% correct and have no reason to lie and are not confusing this with the osprey streaming either. They said that would eventually work with satellite as well.


Edgecutter is alive and well.. Which your comment just proves my point. your "friends" also were wrong about the app which you hung your hat on also


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

compnurd said:


> Edgecutter is alive and well.. Which your comment just proves my point. your "friends" also were wrong about the app which you hung your hat on also


They didn’t change the app? I got a new one???


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

JoeTheDragon said:


> but what if you need to replace an 54 with an 17 + min box?


I'm not sure what their policy is if your 54 dies and they don't have anything other than the 17 to replace it with but it seems to me it is not your fault or wish to upgrade so there shouldn't be a commitment if they have to replace it with a 17. What do they do now if your HR24 dies and they don't have any 24's to replace it with and have to give you a genie mini? Do they consider it an upgrade and put you in a new 2 year commitment? Doesn't seem fair if that is their policy.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> I'm not sure what their policy is if your 54 dies and they don't have anything other than the 17 to replace it with but it seems to me it is not your fault or widh to upgrade so there shouldn't be a commitment if they have to replace it with a 17. What do they do now if your HR24 dies and they don't have any 24's to rep[lace it with and have to give you a genie mini? Do they consider it an upgrade and put you in a new 2 year commitment? Doesn't seem fair if that is their policy.


To my knowledge it is not considered an upgrade in those cases based on previous posts from some users


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

compnurd said:


> Edgecutter is alive and well..


At one time alive and well meant we would find out about features before anyone else. Not so much anymore I guess.


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## yeager (Nov 15, 2008)

Likely the rumored Android TV streaming box (A21KW-500)? https://www.androidtv-guide.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/DIRECTV-STREAM-V2-User-Manual-FCC.pdf


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

yeager said:


> Likely the rumored Android TV streaming box (A21KW-500)? https://www.androidtv-guide.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/DIRECTV-STREAM-V2-User-Manual-FCC.pdf


Version 3.0 12/2020 ????

Should be considered a crime to use a 10/100 Ethernet port with the proliferation of GIG internet speeds these days.

Also it says: "(It’s not compatible with any DIRECTV set-top boxes or existing Genie® Servers.)"

One of the screen shots I posted in the original post says the box is compatible with the Genie/Genie 2.

Also where are you going to attach the RG6 cable to it?


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## yeager (Nov 15, 2008)

b4pjoe said:


> Also it says: "(It’s not compatible with any DIRECTV set-top boxes or existing Genie® Servers.)"
> 
> One of the screen shots I posted in the original post says the box is compatible with the Genie/Genie 2.
> 
> Also where are you going to attach the RG6 cable to it?


Valid points. This may not be the right box or maybe it's not meant to be a direct replacement of the existing box.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

That at one point was supposed to be the new Directv Stream Osprey Box.... But it never surfaced


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

west99999 said:


> At one time alive and well meant we would find out about features before anyone else. Not so much anymore I guess.


And you still can.. The latest firmware testing mentions a new product support


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Version 3.0 12/2020 ????
> 
> Should be considered a crime to use a 10/100 Ethernet port with the proliferation of GIG internet speeds these days.
> 
> ...


So the rumor which i posted last year and cant find it mentioned you would not use Coax with the new box.. Since the Genie would have to be on broadband i.e on your network the new device would connect to it via ethernet or wireless Its certainly possible this box becomes it but initially this was supposed to be the Gen 2 Osprey Which depending on software it could do both


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Can someone update me here?

Since the email states that this new client supports wireless 4K for both the _"Genie"_ and "Genie 2."

Well since the Genie-1 (HR54) has to use an external WVB of course. I thought the MoCA 2.0 and 802.11ac WiFi capable WVB ver. 2 needed for 4K wireless streaming was never released?

Only the MoCA 1.1/802.11n version for HD/SD streaming was ever officially distributed to subscribers?

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## detuch254 (Nov 21, 2021)

b4pjoe said:


> I'm not sure what their policy is if your 54 dies and they don't have anything other than the 17 to replace it with but it seems to me it is not your fault or wish to upgrade so there shouldn't be a commitment if they have to replace it with a 17. What do they do now if your HR24 dies and they don't have any 24's to replace it with and have to give you a genie mini? Do they consider it an upgrade and put you in a new 2 year commitment? Doesn't seem fair if that is their policy.


Like for Like is the term. An HS17 replacing an HR54 is NOT an upgrade and therefore doesn’t trigger a two year contract.

However, an HR24 being upgraded to a Genie HD DVR does renew the contract.
Adding receivers to the account also triggers a two year contract. So, if you add an H25 or Genie Mini then that’s a two year contract.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

compnurd said:


> So the rumor which i posted last year and cant find it mentioned you would not use Coax with the new box.. Since the Genie would have to be on broadband i.e on your network the new device would connect to it via ethernet or wireless Its certainly possible this box becomes it but initially this was supposed to be the Gen 2 Osprey Which depending on software it could do both


So it would be using your home network to play content from the other DirecTV DVR's?


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

detuch254 said:


> Like for Like is the term. An HS17 replacing an HR54 is NOT an upgrade and therefore doesn’t trigger a two year contract.
> 
> However, an HR24 being upgraded to a Genie HD DVR does renew the contract.
> Adding receivers to the account also triggers a two year contract. So, if you add an H25 or Genie Mini then that’s a two year contract.


I think currently if your HR24 dies and they don't have any to replace it with they try to move you to a genie mini and I don't think that should have a commitment.


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## dlbottla (8 mo ago)

b4pjoe said:


> I got an email to do a survey from DirecTV Research Team. Not from DirecTV.com but from "[email protected]" with the text at the bottom of the email "This email is from [email protected], a third-party email run by Research Results Inc. DIRECTV Research Team has contracted SKIM, an independent research firm, to conduct this survey. The information gathered will be used for internal purposes only with DIRECTV Research Team. If you have any questions at all regarding this survey or if you have any technical difficulties, please email SKIM at [email protected]."
> 
> First thing I thought was spam or even possible a scam but I decided to go through the survery anyway. Pretty sure it is not a scam as it was just a simple survey.
> 
> ...


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> So it would be using your home network to play content from the other DirecTV DVR's?


No clue on that portion The way I understood it was it would see your Genie Only


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## detuch254 (Nov 21, 2021)

compnurd said:


> No clue on that portion The way I understood it was it would see your Genie Only


This seems overly complicated. DIRECTV satellite is widely targeted to 1) Those who are sports fans AND 2) Those who don’t have a GOOD connection
Making DIRECTV’s main features work over wireless/wired seems wrong.


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## Demodave (Jun 10, 2013)

It's about time to support wireless 4K. If my $39 Roku Streaming Stick can easily receive 4K HDR content, I see no reason why DTV couldn't do the same.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> Should be considered a crime to use a 10/100 Ethernet port with the proliferation of GIG internet speeds these days.


What would be the point of something that did more than 25Mbps? Remember that we're talking about SoCs that are designed around streaming video. GigE is certainly of no benefit.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> What would be the point of something that did more than 25Mbps? Remember that we're talking about SoCs that are designed around streaming video. GigE is certainly of no benefit.


Because the world has moved past 100 mbps. The cost of putting in a gigabit port is basically pennies.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

compnurd said:


> No clue on that portion The way I understood it was it would see your Genie Only


So with this "new" box I couldn't watch content from my HR24's? That would suck.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> The cost of putting in a gigabit port is basically pennies.


That's why I was careful to note that we're talking about SoCs and not NICs. If an SoC doesn't require GigE, why waste even pennies?


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> So with this "new" box I couldn't watch content from my HR24's? That would suck.


Your HR24s are a dying breed. They will never get any new features. They will become doorstops eventually.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> That's why I was careful to note that we're talking about SoCs and not NICs. If an SoC doesn't require GigE, why waste even pennies?


Apple put it in their latest ATV 4K. It is nice to do a bandwidth test from the ATV and see what you are actually getting.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

west99999 said:


> Your HR24s are a dying breed. They will never get any new features. They will become doorstops eventually.


Explain to me if it is using your home network to watch content from the HR54 DVR it couldn't do the same from the HR24. It is on the same network that the HR54 is on.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Explain to me if it is using your home network to watch content from the HR54 DVR it couldn't do the same from the HR24. It is on the same network that the HR54 is on.


I’m sure it could but Dtv is not moving forward with any new features on those old dvrs. Why would they? If I’m not mistaken the first hr24 was out in 2005. That’s nearly 20 year old technology.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

west99999 said:


> I’m sure it could but Dtv is not moving forward with any new features on those old dvrs. Why would they? If I’m not mistaken the first hr24 was out in 2005. That’s nearly 20 year old technology.


What new feature would have to be done to the HR24? They are already on the network.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> What new feature would have to be done to the HR24? They are already on the network.


I don’t know. I just no that moving forward they’ve said HRxxx will not get any new features which means no streaming backup for one.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> That at one point was supposed to be the new Directv Stream Osprey Box.... But it never surfaced


Could it be that they are just delaying the A21KW-500 to make it work with the HR-54 and HS-17? If not, I forgot there is nothing at the FCC site showing any new DTV boxes. Or maybe they will do a software update to make the C71-KW work with the HS-17 and HR-54?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> Could it be that they are just delaying the A21KW-500 to make it work with the HR-54 and HS-17? If not, I forgot there is nothing at the FCC site showing any new DTV boxes. Or maybe they will do a software update to make the C71-KW work with the HS-17 and HR-54?


Its possible based on both fronts.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

HoTat2 said:


> Can someone update me here?
> 
> Since the email states that this new client supports wireless 4K for both the _"Genie"_ and "Genie 2."
> 
> ...


I have an HR54 1 with no WVB.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> Can someone update me here?
> 
> Since the email states that this new client supports wireless 4K for both the _"Genie"_ and "Genie 2."
> 
> ...


If its using your home Wifi Network then a WVB is not needed


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> Apple put it in their latest ATV 4K. It is nice to do a bandwidth test from the ATV and see what you are actually getting.


The SoC in the ATV 4K is far and above what you find in most streaming devices and since Apple builds only one or two of everything, they can't pinch pennies for a product that they're selling at a pretty high premium.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> The SoC in the ATV 4K is far and above what you find in most streaming devices and since Apple builds only one or two of everything, they can't pinch pennies for a product that they're selling at a pretty high premium.


Which is why I use the ATV...you get what you pay for.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

west99999 said:


> If I’m not mistaken the first hr24 was out in 2005.


The HR24 debuted in early 2010 and they stopped building new ones some time ago. The HR20 went through many years of development before it was released in 2006 so the fundamental hardware technology is probably nearing 20 years old. You can't reasonably "enhance" something that far behind.

The survey hints that the client-server model will continue to represent what future there is for DIRECTV DBS hardware.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> Which is why I use the ATV...you get what you pay for.


If you're willing to pay $100 extra to have the ability to do broadband speed tests, you might be in the market for a Cinnamon 48 HDMI cable.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

No I pay the extra for the best streaming box out there.


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

b4pjoe said:


> Because the world has moved past 100 mbps. The cost of putting in a gigabit port is basically pennies.


8-31-2022 at 1:32 PM - PDT

@b4pjoe

BUT, The streaming services utilized by DISH and DirecTV equipment DOESN'T utilize anything close to 100Mb right now. Until such time as the equipment requires 'faster' than 100Mb, then there's no need, (in the minds of the makers of the STBs and DVRs), to have Gigabit LAN Ports on said equipment. *[EDIT:]* I forgot that the NIC and two Wired Ports on the Hopper3 are Gigabit... However; due to conflicts between our Hopper3 and our U-Verse Gateway, we've had to implement the Hopper Internet Connector which is 100Mb. BUT, the Joeys are ONLY 100Mb. However; my comments on the STBs for DISH and DirecTV stand, they only utilize 100Mb Ports right now.

Even our ROKU Ultra 4K Device ONLY utilizes a 100Mb Ethernet Port for Wired LAN connection.


TimeLord04


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

studechip said:


> I have an HR54 1 with no WVB.


I assumed the Genie-1 (or HR54) would need to communicate with this new wireless client in the same way as the current wireless Genie Minis do. Requiring a WVB ....

But if the new wireless client is going to communicate through the home WiFi and not via a closed WiFi system as the current wireless Minis do, then that's a different story. ...

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

b4pjoe said:


> Should be considered a crime to use a 10/100 Ethernet port with the proliferation of GIG internet speeds these days.


Why? What need does it have for greater than 100 Mbit speeds? It can only stream 4K, which requires a fraction of that bandwidth.

This is like complaining that a golf cart doesn't have the capability go 65 mph, when it will be driven around a golf course and not on a highway.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Apple does it for a reason I suppose.


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

b4pjoe said:


> Apple does it for a reason I suppose.


2:27 PM - PDT

Traditionally, Apple has usually been early adopters of new High End Tech. Within a short time, others follow.

I assume, that this is still the case, and since Apple has put Gigabit LAN Ports on their ATV Devices, other
services will follow. How long, will be determined by each individual service provider.


TimeLord04


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## bscabl (Feb 22, 2010)

b4pjoe said:


> I think currently if your HR24 dies and they don't have any to replace it with they try to move you to a genie mini and I don't think that should have a commitment.


if you dont mind me asking.. how would they do that.. the mini doesnt have a hard drive.. [unless the new ones do?] - nevermind im dumb.. i thought we were talking about the dvr..


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

bscabl said:


> if you dont mind me asking.. how would they do that.. the mini doesnt have a hard drive.. [unless the new ones do?] - nevermind im dumb.. i thought we were talking about the dvr..


Yeah they couldn't give you a mini unless you already had a Genie. The issue with replacing an HR24 with a mini is you lose the two tuners from the HR24 and then the mini grabs one from the Genie so you lose 3 tuners overall in that case.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Wouldn't it be simpler to switch to the streaming version?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> Apple does it for a reason I suppose.


Apple does it because their SoCs are used in different applications where the additional speed is beneficial.

The unfortunate side effect is that their lesser devices are often a relatively poor value because they use the same iron as their more costly devices.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> No I pay the extra for the best streaming box out there.


If you read the rankings, there are a number of streaming boxes that are ranked higher than the ATV and are less expensive (with the exception of the nVIDIA Shield TV Pro that is featured closer to a console than a streamer). The ATV is usually cited as the best streamer for those fully engaged in Apple Ecosystem which is a rather unusual qualification for a "streaming box".


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> If you read the rankings, there are a number of streaming boxes that are ranked higher than the ATV and are less expensive (with the exception of the nVIDIA Shield TV Pro that is featured closer to a console than a streamer). The ATV is usually cited as the best streamer for those fully engaged in Apple Ecosystem which is a rather unusual qualification for a "streaming box".


Well I have used Fire TV sticks, Fire TV boxes, Fire TV Cubes (1st and 2nd generation), Google Chromecast, Roku, and few off brand Android sticks and none of them match the ATV in any category. All of those devices are stored away in a box somewhere except the 2nd generation Cube and the only reason I still have it connected is for my Blink security cameras.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Rich said:


> Wouldn't it be simpler to switch to the streaming version?


Might consider it after football season is over due to issues I have with the satellite system that DirecTV seems to be unable to solve.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> I got an email to do a survey from DirecTV Research Team. Not from DirecTV.com but from "[email protected]" with the text at the bottom of the email "This email is from [email protected], a third-party email run by Research Results Inc. DIRECTV Research Team has contracted SKIM, an independent research firm, to conduct this survey. The information gathered will be used for internal purposes only with DIRECTV Research Team. If you have any questions at all regarding this survey or if you have any technical difficulties, please email SKIM at [email protected]."
> 
> First thing I thought was spam or even possible a scam but I decided to go through the survery anyway. Pretty sure it is not a scam as it was just a simple survey.
> 
> ...


This new 4K HDR replacement for the Genie Mini, which includes apps for Netflix, HBO Max, Prime Video, etc., is clearly either the existing DTV Stream box (C71-KW400) running Android TV Operator Tier or it's a second-generation version of that box which has yet to be released. I imagine when used on the satellite side, fetching live satellite TV and DVR recordings from a Genie/Genie 2, it will have a little different UI and maybe different firmware than when deployed for use with DTV Stream.

And for those who remember, the original User Manual filed with the C71-KW400 at the FCC a year or two before it ever came out hinted that that device might be used with some future Genie 3 referenced in the manual as the "HS-27". Apparently plans for that were scrapped -- why sink additional resources on the dying satellite side of the business? -- so they've just made the C71 compatible with the current Genie 2, i.e. the HS-17.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> This sounds pretty sweet too:
> 
> Backup satellite signal protection
> • Continue watching TV over broadband if there's a
> ...


Getting these units deployed and in use by DTV satellite customers makes for a seamless future transition of those customers over to DTV Stream if and when the customer (or the company) wants that to happen.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> This new 4K HDR replacement for the Genie Mini, which includes apps for Netflix, HBO Max, Prime Video, etc., is clearly either the existing DTV Stream box (C71-KW400) running Android TV Operator Tier or it's a second-generation version of that box which has yet to be released.


Given that the DIRECTV Stream Device doesn't support DECA, this would be a fairly radical departure and not a drop-in replacement for a Genie Mini.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

TimeLord04 said:


> Traditionally, Apple has usually been early adopters of new High End Tech.


Apparently you weren't born yet when Apple dropped the PowerPC platform for Intel x86.


----------



## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

harsh said:


> Apparently you weren't born yet when Apple dropped the PowerPC platform for Intel x86.


9-1-2022 at 12:48 PM - PDT

Actually, I DID HAVE a PPC/PowerMAC by PowerComputing. It was their 604/132, I maxed out the RAM to 96MB from TechnologyWerks, I had installed the Adaptec 3940UW SCSI Controller, installed a Quantum Atlas F&W SCSI 3GB Drive, and a Matrox Millennium 8MB WRAM PCI Video Card. It was purchased back in 1996, and was a clone of the Apple 9500.

It was the return of Steve Jobs, and his decision to 'Kill the Clones', that ended the PPC/PowerMAC Demand followed by the excuse that the PPC Architecture was 'Limited' and then Jobs moved from the PPC to Intel.

(Actually, as a Museum Piece, I still have my PowerComputing PowerWave 604/132 System - Intact.)


TimeLord04


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

harsh said:


> Given that the DIRECTV Stream Device doesn't support DECA, this would be a fairly radical departure and not a drop-in replacement for a Genie Mini.


If only there were a small device that converts coax to Ethernet that you could attach to the C71....


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

b4pjoe said:


> Apple does it for a reason I suppose.


Apple uses their market power to make bulk purchases - for instance they were the world's largest consumer of flash memory for years due to the iPod and then the iPhone. Apple needs a lot of ethernet NICs for Macs, but due to buying millions of them a year it probably ends up costing the same to order more of those for Apple TV than it would to order 10/100s for just that one product and simplifies their inventory management.

Directv (or rather the actual manufacturers of Cxx clients who also make set tops for other companies) probably use the same market power to buy a lot of 10/100 NICs because that's all ANY set top box really needs. They will switch to gigabit eventually, but only because at some point chipmakers like Broadcom will decide the cost delta between 10/100 and gigabit NICs is so small they want to drop the 10/100s off their standard price list and make them special order parts (for the sorts of companies who want to keep using the same parts for years, usually due to regulatory compliance in aerospace or defense that means any part change is a big pain in the ass for them)


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

David Ortiz said:


> If only there were a small device that converts coax to Ethernet that you could attach to the C71....


If only the c71 had coax.....


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

west99999 said:


> If only the c71 had coax.....





David Ortiz said:


> If only there were a small device that converts coax to Ethernet that you could attach to the C71....





harsh said:


> Given that the DIRECTV Stream Device doesn't support DECA, this would be a fairly radical departure and not a drop-in replacement for a Genie Mini.


What are we going in circles now?


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Are we sure it's the C71-KW or the A21-KW? It does say DTV is developing a new piece of hardware. So, could they still say that the C71-KW is new? Or would they be referring to the A21-KW? Or a totally all new Genie Mini just for DTV? Maybe the new box is just not listed on the FCC's website yet?


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

Not sure of that answer, but there definitely does exists a C71KW-400 and a A21KW-500.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

CraigerM said:


> Are we sure it's the C71-KW or the A21-KW? It does say DTV is developing a new piece of hardware. So, could they still say that the C71-KW is new? Or would they be referring to the A21-KW? Or a totally all new Genie Mini just for DTV? Maybe the new box is just not listed on the FCC's website yet?


It could be something new not on the FCC site yet, or it could be a re-purposing of one of those boxes which when loaded with different software would work just fine for Directv wirelessly, or when using ethernet either via DECA or a customer's in home wiring.

It is well past time for Directv to get over their insistence on having their own little DECA network to connect all non wireless clients. More and more people have twisted pair installed in their house and new houses are being built without coax these days. They need to get with the times.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

codespy said:


> Not sure of that answer, but there definitely does exists a C71KW-400 and a A21KW-500.


Are there any A21KW-500 units in the wild?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> More and more people have twisted pair installed in their house and new houses are being built without coax these days.


More and more people are choosing to implement increasingly complex Wi-fi configurations rather than stringing CAT6.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> Broadcom will decide the cost delta between 10/100 and gigabit NICs is so small


There is no NIC per se - only PHY part, like LFE8423 by DELTA, is separate component; so , everything inside of the SoC.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> More and more people are choosing to implement increasingly complex Wi-fi configurations rather than stringing CAT6.


But even there while the increasingly complex WiFi such as in home mesh systems may be used for fronthaul traffic (between wireless clients and nodes). The preferred method for handling the backhaul traffic (between the mesh nodes) is still by ethernet cable.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> The preferred method for handling the backhaul traffic (between the mesh nodes) is still by ethernet cable.


Preferred by whom (the product designers or the consumers)? The optimal method isn't the typical method and the RJ45 jack(s) may be used for hardwiring rather than backhauling. The Google Nest satellites don't include an RJ45 port.

How forum members connect their satellites might be an interesting poll question (assuming the forum software stills supports polls).


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> Given that the DIRECTV Stream Device doesn't support DECA, this would be a fairly radical departure and not a drop-in replacement for a Genie Mini.


Maybe it's more accurate to say that this forthcoming box will be more of a direct replacement for the current Wireless Genie Mini (C41W) than the Genie Mini (C61).


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> Are there any A21KW-500 units in the wild?


Don't think so. It was submitted to the FCC for approval awhile back. There are specs and a stock photo out there but I think that's just based on what we know between the hardware platform that Humax announced (which we've figured out is the platform the A21KW-500 uses).



https://www.androidtv-guide.com/pay-tv-provider/att-tv-2/


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Don't think so. It was submitted to the FCC for approval awhile back.


It was submitted in late June 2021 and apparently approved almost immediately.

The A21KW-500 ("A" for AT&T) manual specifically says "The box and remote control are not compatible with any older DIRECTV or AT&T U-verse® equipment" but that might be worked around with a suitable DIRECTV app.

A survey question is not a particularly authoritative source of what's in the queue -- I would have thought that a survey would precede a product, not come after the product has received FCC approval. I'm inclined to believe that this isn't something designed around AT&T TV and is (or will be) a new product that includes MoCA functionality. Something very much like DISH's new Joey 4.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Looks like the first mention was in January 2021:








ATT TV (DIRECTV Stream) - a little review


Yup. Apple has a notorious history of pushing updates and not giving the app developers time to test and patch I am sure there will be a TVOS 14.4.1 or a ATT TV app update sometime in the next week here Eh the one thing I can't really bash Apple over is how quickly the update the software and...




www.dbstalk.com


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> Preferred by whom (the product designers or the consumers)? The optimal method isn't the typical method and the RJ45 jack(s) may be used for hardwiring rather than backhauling. The Google Nest satellites don't include an RJ45 port.
> 
> How forum members connect their satellites might be an interesting poll question (assuming the forum software stills supports polls).


Should be preferred by anyone using a mesh system. I mean it's obvious (if it can be conveniently done of course). ...

As one downside to mesh Wi-Fi systems is that data travels from node to node to the router and then back again using the wireless backhaul, meaning each packet of data must make multiple stops in each direction of its journey of your mesh network drastically reducing the connection speed per hop. 

_Using an Ethernet backhaul means that outgoing traffic can travel directly back to the router via a high-speed LAN port, faster and more reliably than any current wireless technology could match._

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It depends on what one is doing with the system. Mesh systems have enough throughput for most use cases. That being said, wired backhauls are a common feature. The Google Nest that harsh noted does not have wired connections to the "WiFi Point" that they use as extenders for their "WiFi Router". Fortunately they do have a LAN port on the router (otherwise I would need to find a different solution). I have a Nest system with a router connected via WAN port to my ISP's gateway device and a GB switch connected to the LAN port on that router. The GB switch feeds the things I want wired (or that don't due wireless). The WiFi mesh works fine serving local users on the router and the point.


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

HoTat2 said:


> But even there while the increasingly complex WiFi such as in home mesh systems may be used for fronthaul traffic (between wireless clients and nodes). The preferred method for handling the backhaul traffic (between the mesh nodes) is still by ethernet cable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


9-2-2022 at 8:10 PM - PDT

@HoTat2

So, let me get this straight, in plain English.... You're saying that one 'should' connect EACH MESH Node in a Daisy Chain, Node to Node to Node in order to perform your 'back haul' scenario....

This presumes that one has Ethernet in the walls to accommodate the Wired Connections from Node to Node to Node.... NOW, IF a person had Ethernet in the walls already, this makes a MESH System 'kinda moot', as you already have a superior Wired Connection throughout the home. In my family's situation, (which I've mentioned in many other Threads here in the DBS Forum), we CANNOT accomplish this as our home DOES NOT have Ethernet in the Walls. Our home was built in 1978, and while dad did major remodeling in 1996 he DID NOT put Ethernet in the walls, even then. Our solution to obtaining 'Wired' capabilities at EVERY STB, (Wireless Joey for our DISH Setup), we implemented our Linksys MESH Network.

With our MESH Network, we Wired ALL TV equipment at each TV location, (some Gigabit Switches were needed), and then connected said equipment by Cat-5 to EACH respective Node. The 'Child' Nodes, (we have four, one at each TV location), then communicate Wirelessly to the main Router Node. The Router Node then connects by Cat-5 to our U-Verse Gateway. We implemented this Network this way in order to obtain 'Wired' Ethernet connections to ALL TV Equipment. However; this means that we are GREATLY over provisioned with our MESH System's Wireless.

Even though we are over provisioned, we have NO issues on WiFi Connections via the MESH System; nor do we have any issues on the now Wired devices.

Our Main Router Node is a Tri-Band Linksys AC-2200, and our four 'Child' Nodes are all Dual Band AC-1300 models. DISH sold us the Tri-Band and two, (2), AC-1300 Nodes, and we added two, (2), more AC-1300's to eliminate the DISH WAPs that were getting in the way and causing HUGE pixelation issues on the Wireless Joeys. Our Hopper3 DVR required the use of DISH Network's Hopper Internet Connector to replace the stock NIC in the H3; as the H3's NIC was INCOMPATIBLE with our U-Verse Gateway. ALL DISH Equipment, therefore, is 100Mb Ethernet Connected by Cat-5, again, to each respective TV Location's MESH Node.

We even added a ROKU Ultra 4K and Wired it to the Node. We've had NO issues streaming Disney+, Paramount+, Prime Video, nor with Netflix. All streaming services run smoothly, no buffering, stuttering nor freezes. The DISH Network Equipment, likewise, has no issues in viewing live nor recorded TV shows. IF there's ANY issues with 'Hops' from Node to Node to Node to Router Node, we are NOT experiencing anything dramatic nor noticeable in our viewing experiences on any of our equipment. Speed Tests throughout the home on Wireless Devices show FULL 50Mb VDSL Broadband Speeds, and Wired Devices are communicating at FULL Gigabit, (100Mb on the Joeys), LAN Speeds over the entire Network. We've had NO noticeable 'bottlenecks' of any kind.

I'm NOT disputing that these 'bottlenecks' from 'Hop' to 'Hop' DON'T exist, but in our setup, we're NOT experiencing ANY problems. *[EDIT:]* Our home is 3,436 Sq. Ft. and is two stories.


TimeLord04


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## PMA (Jul 20, 2002)

Saw the heading for this thread so I quickly scanned all of the inputs. I don't understand all the engineering protocols being discussed but wanted to ask a question about whether any new hardware from DirecTV might offer improved audio such as Dolby Atmos. Their 4k channels are limited but it would also be great to get more HDR content as well. My AppleTV can do both so I generally will watch content on that box to get higher quality audio and video. Seems that DirecTV is falling behind in that regard.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

TimeLord04 said:


> 9-2-2022 at 8:10 PM - PDT
> 
> @HoTat2
> 
> ...


No, my mention of ethernet "between the nodes" earlier was not meant to refer to any daisy-chaining of the nodes. But each satellite node having a direct ethernet backhaul link to the main router/node that connects to the modem or gateway.

But let me ask you this ...

If you could have conveniently run ethernet backhaul from those AC1300 satellites to the main AC2200 router/node, you wouldn't have chosen it over wireless?

As I myself live in a "very" old two-story home originally built in 1912 with (obviously) no ethernet of course and the interior walls made of old style lath and plaster construction. Which, and somewhat to my surprise, don't pass WiFi signals so great.

So I have a three node Asus XT8 mesh system with ethernet backhaul for two satellite nodes by means of D-band MoCA 2.5 adapters as it is comparatively easy to run coax cable throughout the house. ...

For the record: the main router/node then connects to an AT&T BGW-320 gateway set in "IP pass-through" mode to AT&T Fiber's 1gb up/down service. ....

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> So I have a three node Asus XT8 mesh system with ethernet backhaul for two satellite nodes by means of D-band MoCA 2.5 adapters as it is comparatively easy to run coax cable throughout the house. ...


How is it "comparatively easy" to run coax versus CAT6?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> How is it "comparatively easy" to run coax versus CAT6?


Well, while I'm a bit embarrassed to say ....

The truth is whereas I still have no problems with stripping and attaching coax connectors to RG-6 cable at my near senior citizen age. I seem to be all thumbs at attaching RJ-45 connectors to cat cable ends ...

Sign .... 

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> The truth is whereas I still have no problems with stripping and attaching coax connectors to RG-6 cable at my near senior citizen age. I seem to be all thumbs at attaching RJ-45 connectors to cat cable ends ...


They have connectors for that. Search Amazon for "RJ45 EZ". Many of these products will work with either stranded or solid conductor cable.

CAT6 has too many advantages (and possible uses) compared to RG6.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

I can attest that the "RJ45 EZ" plugs are easier than old type of plugs but as someone with arthritis in both hands they are still no picnic.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> I can attest that the "RJ45 EZ" plugs are easier than old type of plugs but as someone with arthritis in both hands they are still no picnic.


Terminating any kind of cable is no picnic if you're plagued with arthritis. The feed-through plugs can solve problems with both dexterity and visual acuity.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> They have connectors for that. Search Amazon for "RJ45 EZ". Many of these products will work with either stranded or solid conductor cable.
> 
> CAT6 has too many advantages (and possible uses) compared to RG6.





b4pjoe said:


> I can attest that the "RJ45 EZ" plugs are easier than old type of plugs but as someone with arthritis in both hands they are still no picnic.


Yeah I switched to those type of "pass-through" connectors and bought the highly rated $50 pass-through crimper tool from Klein Tools (VDV226-110).

But admittedly I still struggle to keep those eight little wires to lay straight and flat and stay in the correct order before insertion into the connector.

Also on the large roll of solid core cat-6 cable I have, has a spline with an "x" shaped cross-section running through the cable with the wires that make it difficult to get the wires to lay completely flat even when I trim the spline back as far as I can with nipper cutters.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Sounds like it might be time to teach someone else to terminate cables for you. It is a handy skill and you know what needs to be done.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> I'm inclined to believe that this isn't something designed around AT&T TV and is (or will be) a new product that includes MoCA functionality. Something very much like DISH's new Joey 4.


Anything's possible but I don't see DTV making a new dedicated piece of hardware to bring Android TV to DTV satellite customers just so that it can have built-in MoCA. I think they'll just dual-purpose either the existing DTV Stream box (C71) or roll out a next-gen replacement for that box to serve both use cases. So on the satellite side, the box would work very much like DISH's Wireless Joey 4, which runs Android TV Operator Tier and connects via wifi to a full-blown Hopper DVR to fetch live satellite TV streams as well as DVR recordings. The Android TV OS and its apps reside directly on the Joey.



https://www.androidtv-guide.com/pay-tv-provider/dish-wireless-joey-4/


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

HoTat2 said:


> No, my mention of ethernet "between the nodes" earlier was not meant to refer to any daisy-chaining of the nodes. But each satellite node having a direct ethernet backhaul link to the main router/node that connects to the modem or gateway.
> 
> But let me ask you this ...
> 
> ...


9-3-2022 at 4:36 PM - PDT

@HoTat2 

IF I had access to Wired Ethernet throughout our home, I'd have NO reason for a MESH System at all.... HOWEVER; now knowing your home's limitations of WiFi signals and their 'lack of penetration' of the walls due to the original construction materials - I DO, now, see your need to do this.

Our MESH System seems to NOT have interference patterns in our home as it is of more modern construction, (drywall), than yours.

As to Fiber, (AT&T), we, here, in our city are STUCK waiting for the city to 'permit' trenching of the Fiber Cables to the homes in our developments. We are stuck in a Duopoly, whereby the city ONLY allows AT&T U-Verse, AND COMCAST, (now XFINITY), as 'Cable Services'. TV options beyond these two entities rely on Satellite services; so DISH Network, and DirecTV are allowed - with exceptions and bylaws of each community's HOA rules. (NOT having a Sat Dish visible, and so on....) As to Broadband Internet, we are DEFINITELY stuck by the city's Duopoly rules/laws.

Until AT&T Fiber gets the permits, only the 'old' section of our city has been retrofitted with AT&T Fiber via routing the fiber optic cables over the power line poles. AND, the newer construction zones are automatically permitted for trenching, so, they too get to have AT&T Fiber to the homes. Again, with our developments having been built in the 70s and 80s are just stuck in the middle waiting for the damned city to get off its duff and permit AT&T to trench the Fiber lines to the homes. So, we're stuck on the older VDSL model, and stuck at the 'maximum' of 50Mb Broadband. Thankfully, AT&T VDSL is 'Dedicated', so the Max Broadband Speed is 'True' and honest and DOES NOT dip below the 50Mb speeds.


TimeLord04


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

TimeLord04 said:


> 9-3-2022 at 4:36 PM - PDT
> 
> @HoTat2
> 
> ...


So if I'm understanding you correctly there's really no functional or performance difference between a mesh system with direct ethernet backhaul (i.e., from each satellite node to the main router/node) and simply having multiple independent WAPs backhauled the same way?

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> How is it "comparatively easy" to run coax versus CAT6?


Running cable is running cable, it is a pain in an existing home either way.

My original point was that new homes are being built with cat5 wiring to every room, and without coax. The opposite situation was the rule 20 years ago. So Directv having hardware that's compatible with ethernet instead of insisting on coax would make sense.

That doesn't stop them from continuing to support wireless. That's probably their preference over any wired method, but wireless isn't a solution for every case. Not supporting ethernet in 2022 is just dumb.

They already are to a limited extent - that's how people are connecting their Genie to the internet in many cases. They just have to extend that to supporting clients connected via ethernet.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> But admittedly I still struggle to keep those eight little wires to lay straight and flat and stay in the correct order before insertion into the connector.


There is a trick from my own experience - when you made flat all the 8 wires, cur them even, hold it tight and bent all of then while keep it flat and straight, do that a couple times before begin inserting into RJ-45 jack.


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

HoTat2 said:


> So if I'm understanding you correctly there's really no functional or performance difference between a mesh system with direct ethernet backhaul (i.e., from each satellite node to the main router/node) and simply having multiple independent WAPs backhauled the same way?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


9-4-2022 at 3:41 AM - PDT

@HoTat2

I don't know about DirecTV's WAPs; but DISH Network's original WAPs, (they've just introduced a new model for the Wireless 4K Joey, which I do NOT have), were TERRIBLE, and introduced much interference and HIGH pixelations, usually full screen pixelations. So, in my current MESH Setup, I've eliminated, entirely, the need for DISH WAPs for our four, (4), Wireless Joeys. BUT, yet again, if I had access to Wired Ethernet in the walls, then I could have still Wired the Wireless Joeys just like I've got currently by wiring them to each respective MESH Node, and STILL completely eliminate the need of WAPs.

*[EDIT:]* However; going back to the fact that your home's construction far differs from mine with you having full plaster walls, and MUCH older electrical wiring with poor shielding and HIGH 'noise' levels - I see how you would need to modify how a MESH Network functions in your home by 'back hauling' the Nodes to the Parent/Primary Router Node. In your setup, this guarantees that you have solid WiFi connection for guests' wireless devices, and your own, throughout the home. More modern homes with drywall, and better insulated power lines, reduce noise and allow WiFi signals to more easily penetrate walls and such.


TimeLord04


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

slice1900 said:


> My original point was that new homes are being built with cat5 wiring to every room


I'd be pretty upset if a contractor ran Cat5 in a new home I was paying for. I would want Cat 6a to future proof my new home. And if money was no problem maybe even Cat 8.



Ethernet Cable Performance Summary
 CategoryShieldingMax Transmission Speed (at 100 meters)Max BandwidthCat 3Unshielded10 Mbps16 MHzCat 5Unshielded10/100 Mbps100 MHzCat 5eUnshielded1000 Mbps / 1 Gbps100 MHzCat 6Shielded or Unshielded1000 Mbps / 1 Gbps>250 MHzCat 6aShielded10000 Mbps / 10 Gbps500 MHzCat 7Shielded10000 Mbps / 10 Gbps600 MHzCat 8Shielded25 Gbps or 40Gbps ***2000 MHz

*** 25 Gbps for Cat 8.1 and 40 Gbps for Cat 8.2.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

You mean you don't really have WiFi access for wireless clients (Smartphones, tablets, notebooks, etc.) to your home network?

Those AC1300 mesh nodes only function as wireless bridges for ethernet connected devices to backhaul them to the main AC2200 router/ node?

Oh, and to note: While my home's original frame, siding and interior walls were indeed built in 1912. All electrical and plumbing is relatively new. Having been replaced back in '05 .... 

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

HoTat2 said:


> You mean you don't really have WiFi access for wireless clients (Smartphones, tablets, notebooks, etc.) to your home network?
> 
> Those AC1300 mesh nodes only function as wireless bridges for ethernet connected devices to backhaul them to the main AC2200 router/ node?
> 
> ...


7:36 AM - PDT

@HoTat2

I do have wireless devices. All three of my computers are WiFi on the 5GHz Band, my dad's two computers, (one Desktop and one Laptop), are also on the 5Ghz Band. My mom uses her iPad, and sometimes a spare Laptop that runs on 5GHz Band. We also, all, have iPhones on 5Ghz. My dad and I, each, have Kindles on 2.4GHz Band. All of these devices used to connect to the U-Verse Gateway, and at that time, (prior to our MESH Network), the Gateway was an NVG-599.

My three Desktop Systems all reside in the Attic/Office on the East side of the house. Dad's computers reside in the Master Bedroom, (2nd Floor), on the West side of the home. On the NVG-599, the 5GHz Band of the 599 DID have trouble reaching the Master Bedroom, and periodically and intermittently dad's computers would drop connectivity. Mom's iPad is NOT used as much as her iPhone, her iPad seemed to keep connection in the downstairs Family Room on the East side of the house. Her Laptop; however, had a 'weaker' connection to the Gateway, and DID intermittently drop connectivity.

Now; since implementing the MESH Network, these connections, (on WiFi), have 'stabilized' and are more solid, and do NOT drop connectivity any longer. More recently, AT&T has upgraded our Gateway to the BGW-210-700. Only our Ring Doorbell resides on the Gateway on the 2.4GHz Band; all other wireless devices are on the MESH Network.

All I'm saying is that had we originally had Wired capabilities throughout the home, we'd NOT have invested $450 into the Linksys MESH Network that we now have. Wired Networking is still FAR superior to ANY Wireless connection.

The AC-1300 'Child' Nodes 'Hop' wirelessly, (from various points throughout the home), to connect to the AC-2200 Router Node in the Attic/Office on the second floor, East side of the home. Access to the Attic/Office is through the upstairs Spare Bedroom, (Bedroom 3), NOT in my Schematic Diagram, previously attached to a prior Post in this Thread. AND each AC-1300 Node has Wired Ports, ("Gigabit"), to take the 'Wired' Devices that connect to each respective Node and transmit the data wirelessly back to the AC-2200. IF this is defined as a 'bridge' then, yes, that is the function of our AC-1300 'Child' Nodes. (Four, (4), of them throughout the home.) So, I'm NOT saying that the MESH WiFi hasn't had benefit for us, just that IF we'd had Cat-5 or Cat-5e in the walls, it would have been more beneficial for the TV equipment, which was/is our priority.

*[EDIT:]*

Except for the new BGW-210 Gateway, this entire DISH Network and MESH Setup has been running since Feb 24, 2021. (OH, and the HIC Device in the schematic was installed in August of 2021 to resolve the 'incompatibilities' between the DISH Hopper3 and U-Verse Gateways.)


TimeLord04


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> I just went back and looked at the part with the wireless 4K and it specifies it would connect wirelessly to a Genie/Genie 2. So I guess it will work with the HR54.


I did the same but interpret it differently in that the survey offers five choices of which the respondent picks two as most important. The first (streaming capability) and last (voice remote) would be automatic for an Android/Google TV box. This suggests that they were seeking to prioritize the features of wireless, self-installation and satellite fallback where they might not all be included. It bears a remarkable resemblance to a classic "triple constraint, pick two" question.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

According to the first screen shot I posted the hardware has already been developed so I assume the hardware is capable on all the functions listed that you mention but they are trying to get an idea of which ones are most important to people. The most important ones to most users may be the only ones included in the first release of the software. Or maybe not. Companies don't always listen to users.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> According to the first screen shot I posted the hardware has already been developed so I assume the hardware is capable on all the functions listed that you mention but they are trying to get an idea of which ones are most important to people.


Of the five listed features, it seems like only the self-installation and satellite fallback features are optional from a practical standpoint (unless MoCA is present).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

TimeLord04 said:


> 9-4-2022 at 3:41 AM - PDT
> 
> @HoTat2I don't know about DirecTV's WAPs; but DISH Network's original WAPs, (they've just introduced a new model for the Wireless 4K Joey, which I do NOT have), were TERRIBLE, and introduced much interference and HIGH pixelations, usually full screen pixelations.


Were you trying to run the DISH WAPs at the same time as a mesh system or another Wi-Fi system?


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

-


b4pjoe said:


> According to the first screen shot I posted the hardware has already been developed so I assume the hardware is capable on all the functions listed that you mention but they are trying to get an idea of which ones are most important to people. The most important ones to most users may be the only ones included in the first release of the software. Or maybe not. Companies don't always listen to users.


I like that you posted this. Just curious how you got this survey, and I haven't gotten the survey yet?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

TimeLord04 said:


> 9-4-2022 at 3:41 AM - PDT
> 
> @HoTat2
> 
> ...





TimeLord04 said:


> 7:36 AM - PDT
> 
> @HoTat2
> 
> ...


Ok, but if you had ethernet throughout house then what type of system would you have chosen to distribute WiFi access over the house if Mesh systems like the Linksys you bought there would now be unnecessary?

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> -
> 
> I like that you posted this. Just curious how you got this survey, and I haven't gotten the survey yet?


I think it is kind of weird too that I got it and no one else here has said that they got the email. I got it at the email address I use for my DIRECTV account. Here is a screen grab of the email with my email address removed.










If I try using the "CLICK HERE TO BEGIN" link in a different browser than I first completed the survey it still knows I have completed the survey already because of the coded URL in the link.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Running cable is running cable, it is a pain in an existing home either way.


No argument here. I would add that running Ethernet cable is a whole lot easier than running coax as it is smaller, lighter and it doesn't have significant bend radius limitations.


> My original point was that new homes are being built with cat5 wiring to every room, and without coax. The opposite situation was the rule 20 years ago. So Directv having hardware that's compatible with ethernet instead of insisting on coax would make sense.


No argument here either other than CAT5/6 is becoming less of a thing in new home wiring in favor of multiple access point Wi-fi and speed advances that weren't economically feasible just a few years ago.


> That doesn't stop them from continuing to support wireless.


Support involving someone else's Wi-fi is a GINORMOUS ask relative to the exclusive WVB configuration.


> That's probably their preference over any wired method, but wireless isn't a solution for every case. Not supporting ethernet in 2022 is just dumb.


No argument here though I would point out that the majority of the streaming devices in use are probably connected via Wi-fi.


> They already are to a limited extent - that's how people are connecting their Genie to the internet in many cases. They just have to extend that to supporting clients connected via ethernet.


Thus far, the live streaming options have been relatively limited and a DVR is typically used to buffer the streams. These clients would obviously use the networking media in a much more time sensitive way than is currently in play. This could be a problem for old school protocols used in the HR series Genies.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> I think it is kind of weird too that I got it and no one else here has said that they got the email. I got it at the email address I use for my DIRECTV account. Here is a screen grab of the email with my email address removed.
> 
> View attachment 32421
> 
> ...


When do you think the new Genie Mini will be available?


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

No idea. The survey didn't state any kind of time frame.


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

James Long said:


> Were you trying to run the DISH WAPs at the same time as a mesh system or another Wi-Fi system?


10:48 AM - PDT

@James Long

In our first 24 Hours of use on DISH, we had NOT yet implemented the MESH Network. The DISH Installer Tech stated that "...there are issues with DISH WAPs, which is why we don't recommend Wireless Joeys. If you have connectivity issues, we'll have to come back out and install a MESH system."

Well, into the first evening, the Master Bedroom location DID have MAJOR pixelation issues. We called the next day, they immediately came out and installed the AC-2200 Router Node and two of our AC-1300 Nodes. They moved one WAP downstairs to the Family Room to 'better stabilize connectivity to that room', AND the other WAP to the Master Bedroom. EACH WAP was connected by Ethernet, (Cat-5), to each respective AC-1300 Node, one Node in the Family Room and one Node in the Master Bedroom.

We STILL had issues with pixelations, (Full Screen Pixelations), on ALL TVs in the house. I came up with the idea of removing the WAPs ENTIRELY, purchasing TWO MORE AC-1300 Nodes, (for a total of 4 AC-1300 Nodes), and then connecting EACH Wireless Joey to EACH AC-1300 Node. With this setup, NO MORE pixelations nor connectivity issues on ANY of the four, (4), Wireless Joeys. ONLY the troublesome NIC issues of the Hopper3 remained, which after 6 Months of HELL, again I found the solution of the Hopper Internet Connector, (HIC), Device to FINALLY resolve the communication/connectivity issues of the H3 and the U-Verse Gateway.

It's been a year and a week since installing the HIC, and just about a year and a half since the MESH Network, and NOW we have 'Bulletproof' TV in the house.

*[EDIT:]* Since the DirecTV patrons here, (most likely), may not have ventured into the DISH area of DBSTalk, I'll state here, (and again for those whom have read my prior Posts in the DISH area), we COULD NOT make use of Wired, (COAX - RG-6), Joeys as our home has DECREPIT COAX cabling. According to the last U-Verse Tech/Installer that was out here when we were still on U-300 TV Service, "...Somewhere in your walls is at least one 90 Degree bend in your cabling. This is where your TV issues and pixelations are coming from." So, when we switched over to DISH for TV Services, I INSISTED on Wireless Joeys.


TimeLord04


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, but if you had ethernet throughout house then what type of system would you have chosen to distribute WiFi access over the house if Mesh systems like the Linksys you bought there would now be unnecessary?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


11:19 AM - PDT

@HoTat2 

We would just have remained on the WiFi of the U-Verse Gateway. For the computers could all have been Wired, except mom's Laptop that resides downstairs. However; she rarely uses the thing; instead, using her iPad or her iPhone - both of which had NO wireless connectivity issues with the U-Verse Gateway.

Likewise, my iPhone and dad's iPhone, and both of our Kindles never had connectivity issues with the U-Verse Gateway, either. So, again, had we had proper Cat-5 or Cat-5e in the walls, the MESH System would have been moot. We could just have installed a couple of Gigabit Switches at the Wired locations in the house and Wired ALL TV Equipment, (STBs and the H3 DVR), without issue. The results would have just about been the same as what we now have. In fact, IF we had had Ethernet in the walls, we'd most likely STILL be on U-Verse U-300 TV Service; as all the U-Verse STBs CAN connect via Ethernet.


TimeLord04


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

DVR controls are deactivated on stream backup I’ve been told.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

TimeLord04 said:


> 11:19 AM - PDT
> 
> @HoTat2
> 
> ...


Wow, I'm envious then ...

As your home's construction is indeed a very "RF friendly" environment (at least to WiFi frequencies). That is if only the one WAP built into the gateway would be sufficient to cover your entire house if it were wired for ethernet.

I could never get away with that here, for instance while typing this post right near one of the XT8 nodes in my bedroom at the west end of the house. Looking at my network analyzer app naturally shows a good signal strength in the -25 to -40 dbm range on the 5 GHz band for the nearby node.

But the other two nodes, one in a centrally located dining room (main router/node) and the other in the upstairs hallway are both within 50 ft. of my bedroom. And even with the bedroom door open are way down in the -70 dbm to -85 dbm range.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

HoTat2 said:


> Wow, I'm envious then ...
> 
> As your home's construction is indeed a very "RF friendly" environment (at least to WiFi frequencies). That is if only the one WAP built into the gateway would be sufficient to cover your entire house if it were wired for ethernet.
> 
> ...


9-5-2022 at 7:54 AM - PDT

@HoTat2

Well, don't get me wrong here.... I didn't say that the U-Verse Gateway's 'reach' was perfect. It's 5GHz Band DOESN'T reach the full West end of the house. For, again, as I stated in an earlier post that my dad's two computers, (one Desktop and one Laptop), DID have trouble keeping wireless connectivity at that West end of the home. It's just that IF we had had Wired Ethernet in the walls, that his computers would have been Wired, thus eliminating the need for the MESH System. Mom's Laptop, IF used more often, would also have had issues IF the home had been Wired, for even though the Family Room is on the East end of the house, the 5GHz Band of the Gateway, (also on the East end of the home), had issues reaching from the upstairs attic down through the attic floor to the Family Room, and the proposed Wired Cable would have been in the East Northeast corner of the room for the TV Equipment - NOT allowing her Laptop to connect Wired.

ONLY the 2.4GHz Band of the Gateway could reach the West end of the home. BUT, the computers kept trying to connect to the 5GHz band, regardless.... No, the Gateway is NOT the perfect solution, either, BUT, in a mostly Wired environment in our home, (again, had we had Wired Ethernet throughout), I don't think dad could have justified the need to spend $450 on the MESH we now have. HOWEVER; because of the GREAT need to have the Wired Ports of the MESH at EVERY TV location, the $450 was more than justified, because it became a requirement and a necessity for ALL TV locations in the home.

*[EDIT:]* The added benefit of GREATLY improved WiFi 'reach' was just 'gravy' or 'icing on the cake'. For, now, dad's computers connect at the MESH Node in the Master Bedroom on the 5GHz Band without issue. Then, that Node 'Hops' back to the Router Node at the East end of the home, most likely with another 'Hop' at my Bedroom 1's MESH Node, which is in between the Router Node and Master Bedroom.... So, everything has just worked out, as it should, by having the MESH Network in place.

*[EDIT 2:]* AND, I'm VERY glad to have the MESH Network. However; dad owns the house, and he makes the decisions on how and where his money is spent. If it hadn't been for the basic 'requirement' to have the MESH Network to complete and resolve the TV Equipment issues, he would NOT have justified to himself the need to spend $450 on the MESH 'just to improve the WiFi connectivity' in our home. He's VERY frugal with his money, and he's also a non-technical person. IF something works at all, even if it's NOT perfect, (like the WiFi of the U-Verse Gateway), he'll keep using it until he feels justified in going another, better but more expensive, route.

*[EDIT 3:]* Had I had the money myself, we would have had MESH over 2 & 1/2 years ago. MOST likely would have been an EERO Pro System. However; now that the cheaper Linksys System is installed, I'm MORE than pleased in how it operates and is maintained by an App on my iPhone. There, also, is a 'Web' Login when I'm at my Hackintosh on Firefox. In the year and a half of operation on the Linksys MESH Network, we've had ONE issue with the Family Room Node. It lost connectivity to the Router Node after a Linksys Firmware update. ALL other Nodes were lit in blue, including the AC-2200 Router Node, BUT when turning the Family Room TV on, there was a message at the top of the TV screen stating, "...Reboot Router." It was then that I noticed the Family Room Node was lit in red.

I rebooted the Family Room Node, first, and found no change.... I then rebooted the AC-2200 and then went back down to the Family Room Node to find it FINALLY lit in blue. The easily visible lights at the top of each Node on Linksys MESH Systems is MUCH better than the EERO Pro Nodes. Setup via the App is virtually identical in the way that both Linksys and EERO are set up at initial installation. Both resolve weak WiFi connectivity pretty evenly.


TimeLord04


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

west99999 said:


> DVR controls are deactivated on stream backup I’ve been told.


This makes sense as the fallback stream is bypassing the Genie altogether.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

I know the topic has veered off into the benefits of Ethernet and MESH systems. Back on topic, I am hoping this is an attempt to at least salvage and modernize the current satellite system and could be a gateway to some sort of hybrid system (hence the streaming backup option) and to eventually utilize the existing system to promote more steaming and less Sat and eventually make for a seamless transition (using existing equipment) from Sat/wired connection to a streaming option (and be able to keep the Sat option available to those who do not have a reliable streaming option). I also wonder if they've gotten "the word" from Discovery/TW, Paramount, etc. that the linear options for HBO, Showtime and so forth are eventually going away and this preps subscribers to have an all in one box solution for those "channels". I also wonder if this will incorporate a new RSN model, which I believe may eventually move completely to a streaming model as well. Note: This is all pure speculation on my part. But reading the "tea leaves" it all makes sense in what we are seeing. So being able to get your content via both Sat or Streaming and being able to get all your premium content through one box (i.e. the way the Osprey works) is something that would benefit many of us. But we'll see.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I am hoping this is an attempt to at least salvage and modernize the current satellite system and could be a gateway to some sort of hybrid system (hence the streaming backup option)


This would require fundamental software changes to the whole STB environment (especially for DVRs) since the current receiver software doesn't have the software flexibility to install apps for (and authenticate with) random streaming services. The processing and memory requirements go up quickly with apps and I don't see much middle ground between where they're at and a Google TV whole home model.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I know the topic has veered off into the benefits of Ethernet and MESH systems. Back on topic, I am hoping this is an attempt to at least salvage and modernize the current satellite system and could be a gateway to some sort of hybrid system (hence the streaming backup option) and to eventually utilize the existing system to promote more steaming and less Sat and eventually make for a seamless transition (using existing equipment) from Sat/wired connection to a streaming option (and be able to keep the Sat option available to those who do not have a reliable streaming option). I also wonder if they've gotten "the word" from Discovery/TW, Paramount, etc. that the linear options for HBO, Showtime and so forth are eventually going away and this preps subscribers to have an all in one box solution for those "channels". I also wonder if this will incorporate a new RSN model, which I believe may eventually move completely to a streaming model as well. Note: This is all pure speculation on my part. But reading the "tea leaves" it all makes sense in what we are seeing. So being able to get your content via both Sat or Streaming and being able to get all your premium content through one box (i.e. the way the Osprey works) is something that would benefit many of us. But we'll see.


From the sounds of it thats what they were looking for.. It will be interesting because there is still such a disparity with there Sat and Streaming TV Contracts..


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

compnurd said:


> From the sounds of it thats what they were looking for.. It will be interesting because there is still such a disparity with there Sat and Streaming TV Contracts..


Don't you suppose that there must be given the differences between in-home and cloud DVR?


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> This would require fundamental software changes to the whole STB environment (especially for DVRs) since the current receiver software doesn't have the software flexibility to install apps for (and authenticate with) random streaming services. The processing and memory requirements go up quickly with apps and I don't see much middle ground between where they're at and a Google TV whole home model.


No doubt, but I think the idea here is to rely less on the hardware than in the past. Perhaps they move into a cloud DVR model (that seems to be more and more common). Obviously the current hardware won't support it, but everyone from cable to OTT systems are moving to that model. Hence why we may see some new, different hardware coming. I do also think they would want to get out of the hardware business if possible (though they might still provide the hardware using the "old" model of you buy it and then you pay extra for support, but only if you want it.) That's how it was when I first started with DirecTV, where you actually bought and owned your receiver and it was up until the H and HR boxes where that changed. There's a lot they can do that might make it more cost effective for them and if they make the ONLY home visit putting a dish up on your roof, then that's probably ideal for them, especially when you consider that they'd much prefer you move to streaming anyway.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

compnurd said:


> From the sounds of it thats what they were looking for.. It will be interesting because there is still such a disparity with there Sat and Streaming TV Contracts..


My guess is that will change over time and the next contracts will handle both streaming and Satellite, especially if streaming is where they want to be over the next 10 years.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> My guess is that will change over time and the next contracts will handle both streaming and Satellite, especially if streaming is where they want to be over the next 10 years.


Oh without a doubt


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Looks like this feature has already been done with the HS17. See link at bottom of post.










Weather Loss turns to Broadband streaming


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Just a week ago somebody said this would never happen.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

west99999 said:


> Just a week ago somebody said this would never happen.


I said it would never happen?? You wanna find those words I said


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

compnurd said:


> I said it would never happen?? You wanna find those words I said


To be fair you didn’t say it would never happen. You said that my friends were full of crap or something along those lines because they don’t get software before CE group.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

west99999 said:


> To be fair you didn’t say it would never happen. You said that my friends were full of crap or something along those lines because they don’t get software before CE group.


I will stand corrected. This was introduced in the last CE cycle Its in the 4/29 release notes • STB Rainfade: Alternate Content.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

I have an HS17 and still getting the "Want to switch to SD" when we get rain fade. Maybe it's only on select channels. Hopefully this is a better solution.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> if they've gotten "the word" from Discovery/TW, Paramount, etc. that the linear options for HBO, Showtime and so forth are eventually going away


How does that work when the vast majority of consumers still get their TV from traditional providers or antenna? TV fanatic boards such as DbsTalk is hardly reflective of gen pop.

Per Wikipedia, as of 2021 (sorry, latest "easy" summary I could find with minimal effort") - Xfinity, Spectrum, DirecTV & Dish are about 57M. Add in Cox, Altice, Uverse, MediaCom and a few other small traditional providers and that's another 12M = 69M. Same list shows Hulu & YTTV _live TV_ to be only 7M combined. The Wikipedia page is from Q1 2021, so no doubt Hulu & YTTV have gained market share since then, but hardly closing the almost 60M gap.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> How does that work when the vast majority of consumers still get their TV from traditional providers or antenna? TV fanatic boards such as DbsTalk is hardly reflective of gen pop.
> 
> Per Wikipedia, as of 2021 (sorry, latest "easy" summary I could find with minimal effort") - Xfinity, Spectrum, DirecTV & Dish are about 57M. Add in Cox, Altice, Uverse, MediaCom and a few other small traditional providers and that's another 12M = 69M. Same list shows Hulu & YTTV _live TV_ to be only 7M combined. The Wikipedia page is from Q1 2021, so no doubt Hulu & YTTV have gained market share since then, but hardly closing the almost 60M gap.


I agree, we aren't there yet. But we are closing in. Here's an example:








Streaming surpasses cable as top way to consume TV


The streamers' growth has now led them to first place, ahead of both cable and broadcast.




www.axios.com





If the trend continues, why wouldn't DTW, CBS/Paramount and others start to transition to streaming only (or streaming centric)? If your cable/sat box can bring in streaming content, then what is the need for linear channels in some respects? What do you need 9 HBO channels when you can click on the streaming app on the same box and watch On Demand? (not to mention for some of the streamers, there's the possibility of non-skippable ads). Older folks (like me) are not traditionally what the TV market goes after. It's the younger demos, and they are moving toward streaming.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I have an HS17 and still getting the "Want to switch to SD" when we get rain fade. Maybe it's only on select channels. Hopefully this is a better solution.


50 or so channels to start is what I was told.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I agree, we aren't there yet. But we are closing in. Here's an example:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Poor article tbh since she split up cable & broadcast in the fancy visual, but then lumps them together in the text. Then she mixes in Netflix & Amazon in with Live TV. And what's the 9.2% in Other? Sat? Torrenting? Smoke Signals? Carrier Pigeons? Cave Drawings?

Yup, totally agree though that young kids don't watch linear TV.

She does say later on:

*Yes, but:* Traditional TV, which includes both cable and broadcast consumption, still collectively makes up the majority of TV viewing in the U.S., for now.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

west99999 said:


> 50 or so channels to start is what I was told.


List is already out its around 75


https://www.directv.com//idpassets/fragment/directv/pdfs/Keep-Watching-With-Broadband-Channels1.pdf


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

It also says in select markets for the local channels. I wonder which ones?


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Poor article tbh since she split up cable & broadcast in the fancy visual, but then lumps them together in the text. Then she mixes in Netflix & Amazon in with Live TV. And what's the 9.2% in Other? Sat? Torrenting? Smoke Signals? Carrier Pigeons? Cave Drawings?
> 
> Yup, totally agree though that young kids don't watch linear TV.
> 
> ...


That was one link, there are dozens of articles on the same topic:


https://www.engadget.com/nielsen-streaming-popularity-vs-cable-164457813.html











Streaming outperforms both cable and broadcast TV for the first time ever


Streaming platforms outpaced broadcast and cable in July's total TV viewership. The change came as new seasons of hits on Hulu and Netflix debuted and live sports and traditional shows went on hiatus.




www.npr.org













U.S. Streaming Tops Cable TV Viewing for First Time, Nielsen Says


Americans now watch more stuff on TV from streaming services than either broadcast or cable TV. Streaming platforms, led by Netflix, in July 2022 for the first time surpassed cable networks to clai…




variety.com





But yes, we aren't quite there yet, but that's where we are heading. Those of us old school viewers are not what these companies are planning for. They need to look to the future (which admittedly American Corporation are terrible at). At this point those of us on cable or sat are hangers on. For some of us there are financial reasons it works, for others it's fear of new tech, and still others, the content that we are used to is not there, or internet is not viable or some other reason, but a lot of these issues will be resolved over time (or we will die off!).


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

compnurd said:


> List is already out its around 75
> 
> 
> https://www.directv.com//idpassets/fragment/directv/pdfs/Keep-Watching-With-Broadband-Channels1.pdf


My assumption is that this is only for "live" TV? In other words, if you are recording something on your DVR, the recording would still be hosed during rain events where you lose sat signal.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> My assumption is that this is only for "live" TV? In other words, if you are recording something on your DVR, the recording would still be hosed during rain events where you lose sat signal.


I would assume so


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Perhaps they move into a cloud DVR model (that seems to be more and more common).


The cloud model won't work for those who don't have sufficient broadband (either speed or gigabytes of capacity). Those are the customers that are most likely to keep DIRECTV DBS alive in future.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> That was one link, there are dozens of articles on the same topic:
> 
> 
> https://www.engadget.com/nielsen-streaming-popularity-vs-cable-164457813.html
> ...


They're still lumping all types of streaming together. VOD and Live are 2 different categories. VOD is dominated by streaming although apparently DirecTV has enough customers for the $15/hr porn to keep it running, so who knows? Live is dominated by traditional.

Also all networks are on summer hiatus, so using summer numbers is misleading. Another issue which is skewing the numbers is that networks haven't generated new hits in years. The last big hit show went off the air 2 or 3 years ago.

I don't think that's a factor of people moving to streaming, I think that's more of a factor of the networks being too focused on wokeness and not creating quality content. Certainly streaming services are also engaged in over the top wokeness which has turned off viewers by the droves. Not saying that American audiences would buy a wholesome all American show like Leave It To Beaver these days, but there is a middle ground between that and supposedly every social circle & family in the country ticking every wokeness category under the sun.

At the end of the day, people will go where the quality / popular content is, where ever that is.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> The cloud model won't work for those who don't have sufficient broadband (either speed or gigabytes of capacity). Those are the customers that are most likely to keep DIRECTV DBS alive in future.


I don't think their goal is to keep Sat alive in the future but to transition as many people to streaming as possible.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

How many customers would DTV Stream need to have in order to survive?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> How many customers would DTV Stream need to have in order to survive?


That's a question that DIRECTV and its two shareholders are asking themselves often. DIRECTV STREAM is priced considerably higher than all of its competitors so they have that in their favor but that typically doesn't bode well for positive net adds.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I don't think their goal is to keep Sat alive in the future but to transition as many people to streaming as possible.


They're going to have to make DIRECTV STREAM a _lot_ more attractive (or DBS a lot less attractive) if they want to make that transition.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> They're still lumping all types of streaming together. VOD and Live are 2 different categories. VOD is dominated by streaming although apparently DirecTV has enough customers for the $15/hr porn to keep it running, so who knows? Live is dominated by traditional.
> 
> Also all networks are on summer hiatus, so using summer numbers is misleading. Another issue which is skewing the numbers is that networks haven't generated new hits in years. The last big hit show went off the air 2 or 3 years ago.
> 
> ...


I think wokeness has VERY little to do with streaming. Not to get too political but just consider the BS that's going on around the new LOTR series on AP. Plenty of "wokeness" to go around, TV, Movies, streaming and everywhere else. But lack of quality TV has been the mantra for as long as I can remember, even back when there were 3 networks and nothing else (it wasn't called the "boob tube" for nothing). Lack of quality is subjective. if YOU don't like it, it's not quality to YOU. But Network linear TV is hindered by outdated morals and standards, mostly because it's over the public airwaves. You can do a lot more with streaming (and cable/sat channels FWIW) because it's an open book. Nudity, language, violence and controversial topics can all be done without those constraints, but again, that's been the same for at least 30 years if not more. What's killing linear TV is the fact that you are no longer tethered to a timeslot, to a channel, and you have literally 1000s of choices at your fingertips. Something that has never been the case. Add that to the fact that the kids no longer care about watching content on a "big screen" and are content to watch on their phones and tablets (something I'd never understand, but whatever) and that's something that's cumbersome to do when you are tethered to a channel or timeslot. Blame it on wokeness all you want, but that's definitely not the issue.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

CraigerM said:


> How many customers would DTV Stream need to have in order to survive?





harsh said:


> That's a question that DIRECTV and its two shareholders are asking themselves often. DIRECTV STREAM is priced considerably higher than all of its competitors so they have that in their favor but that typically doesn't bode well for positive net adds.


I've compared D-Stream to others such as YouTube/Hulu Live and DirecTV Stream, in terms of channel options, and in terms of ease of use blows away all the competition. And that's especially true if you are transitioning from the cable/sat model and use the Osprey box. Sure it's more expensive, but usually Sat is more expensive than cable. It's a much more premium option, especially if you are a sports fan. Anyone currently using DirecTV Sat can easily transition to Stream. The only reason I went back to Sat is because of a few key channels that just weren't available at the time I switched, otherwise I'd have stuck with Stream.



harsh said:


> They're going to have to make DIRECTV STREAM a _lot_ more attractive (or DBS a lot less attractive) if they want to make that transition.


From where they were a year ago they already have. Unlimited DVR is one change they've added. The number of avaialbe concurrent streams is another. Obviously if your internet connection is crap, it doesn't matter, but that's out of their control. With ST leaving DirecTV Sat next year, that narrows the gap even more. For many (most?) the price of stream works out cheaper than Sat as well. And the cost of the Osprey boxes is less too.


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## tjpsnj (Jan 2, 2015)

Streaming backup doesn't work unless you can DVR like the satellite signal. Otherwise, you cannot fast forward through the commercials. If ATT DTV takes away that feature it is no different than the rest. 
I do not watch commercials.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I think wokeness has VERY little to do with streaming. Not to get too political but just consider the BS that's going on around the new LOTR series on AP. Plenty of "wokeness" to go around, TV, Movies, streaming and everywhere else. But lack of quality TV has been the mantra for as long as I can remember, even back when there were 3 networks and nothing else (it wasn't called the "boob tube" for nothing). Lack of quality is subjective. if YOU don't like it, it's not quality to YOU. But Network linear TV is hindered by outdated morals and standards, mostly because it's over the public airwaves. You can do a lot more with streaming (and cable/sat channels FWIW) because it's an open book. Nudity, language, violence and controversial topics can all be done without those constraints, but again, that's been the same for at least 30 years if not more. What's killing linear TV is the fact that you are no longer tethered to a timeslot, to a channel, and you have literally 1000s of choices at your fingertips. Something that has never been the case. Add that to the fact that the kids no longer care about watching content on a "big screen" and are content to watch on their phones and tablets (something I'd never understand, but whatever) and that's something that's cumbersome to do when you are tethered to a channel or timeslot. Blame it on wokeness all you want, but that's definitely not the issue.


Hehe... well, network tv has always been more restrictive then cable & pay services. Yes, quality is the defining factor. Just going by imdb reviews and people I speak to (which is a tiny sample size lol) its a turn off and eye roll. But the "young hollywood" that is woke are writing those shows. So you could say its the young hollywood writers that suck...


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> It also says in select markets for the local channels. I wonder which ones?


Probably depends on the contracts DIRECTV has with your locals. I know with my locals I can stream them in their respective apps for FOX, NBC, CBS using my DIRECTV credentials but not the ABC local station as it says streaming is not allowed via my DIRECTV credentials. (It is owned by Sinclair Broadcast Group)


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Hehe... well, network tv has always been more restrictive then cable & pay services. Yes, quality is the defining factor. Just going by imdb reviews and people I speak to (which is a tiny sample size lol) its a turn off and eye roll. But the "young hollywood" that is woke are writing those shows. So you could say its the young hollywood writers that suck...


Young Hollywood don't want to write TV shows for old folks like me. They are writing Euphoria, they are writhing Atlanta, they are writing Hacks (my niece is one of the writers for the new season, and she's a 20 something young writer). Those are all streaming or cable, not linear TV. The shows on linear TV are geared to older folks like me who don't want to stream or don't even know how. They are watching linear TV because that's what they know. I'll stop here because I'll get booted for being too political. Wokeness is a word this is both revered and ostracized depending on your political leanings and who's talking points you listen to and I'll leave it at that.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

tjpsnj said:


> Streaming backup doesn't work unless you can DVR like the satellite signal. Otherwise, you cannot fast forward through the commercials. If ATT DTV takes away that feature it is no different than the rest.
> I do not watch commercials.


Streaming backup only matters for "Iive" TV. If you don't watch ads, you are most likely watching recordings, in which case, none of this matter (except that you would not get any reprieve from rain fade for your recordings and nothing changes there). If you're watching a live sporting event for example and it's pouring and your dish goes out, streaming would allow you to still watch the game.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> They're going to have to make DIRECTV STREAM a _lot_ more attractive (or DBS a lot less attractive) if they want to make that transition.


Making satellite less attractive will help reduce satellite subscriptions but it won't substantially help DIRECTV Stream. Pushing people away does not guarantee that they will choose DIRECTV's other service. Making stream more attractive is the only path to survival.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

compnurd said:


> List is already out its around 75
> 
> 
> https://www.directv.com//idpassets/fragment/directv/pdfs/Keep-Watching-With-Broadband-Channels1.pdf


They’ve added some since it launched then. Good to know.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

When there is nothing new on TV I like watching a rerun of say Blue Bloods more on Live TV then Paramount+. Even though I think streaming is the future.


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## johncampanale (May 29, 2017)

I have a *Genie Gen 2, Model HR44-500,* and 3 wireless clients. Just to say nothing special. Last week or so (8/31/22), we had a bad storm, and the following happened:

The STB asked if I wanted to switch to streaming mode. Found the same place where I was watching a show and just continued on like nothing happened, although there was no ff or rew.
See attached:

Thanks,
John


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Young Hollywood don't want to write TV shows for old folks like me. They are writing Euphoria, they are writhing Atlanta, they are writing Hacks (my niece is one of the writers for the new season, and she's a 20 something young writer). Those are all streaming or cable, not linear TV. The shows on linear TV are geared to older folks like me who don't want to stream or don't even know how. They are watching linear TV because that's what they know. I'll stop here because I'll get booted for being too political. Wokeness is a word this is both revered and ostracized depending on your political leanings and who's talking points you listen to and I'll leave it at that.


lol... ok, I'll leave that out.

I'm middle aged and I'm fully aware of how to stream and I would have nothing against streaming if the cost / channels / functionality was all there. FOR ME, it's not because I can get DirecTV cheaper. But we're talking live tv here. If we're talking VOD shows, I've watched multiple of those. My favorite shows tend to be sitcoms and they don't make those any more unfortunately.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Steveknj said:


> I don't think their goal is to keep Sat alive in the future but to transition as many people to streaming as possible.


It makes no sense to try to transition people now, when the end of life for Directv satellite is a decade away. At least.

They have no reason to discourage people from signing up for satellite if they want it, and no guarantee that they can successful "transition" anyone to Directv Stream.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> It makes no sense to try to transition people now, when the end of life for Directv satellite is a decade away. At least.


It makes no sense to wait until something dies before you start migrating from it.

Consider what is currently going on at Shaw Direct with the thruster failures on Anik F2. They're having to scramble to get everyone set up for a more recent compression scheme (AVC or maybe HEVC) so that they can run the whole system using only Anik G1. [this sounds a lot like DIRECTV's glacial transition away from MPEG2]

DIRECTV/T 10 is still in use and it has just passed its projected 15 year useful lifespan. DIRECTV/T 11 ages out next March and DIRECTV/T 12 reaches the forecast by the end of 2024. Those obviously aren't hard and fast expiration dates but you'll recall that both DIRECTV 10 and DIRECTV 12 had some serious operational issues along the way (the great amelioration).

There's also the issue that the customer premise equipment is getting pretty creaky and most of it won't still be viable in five years, much less a decade.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> It makes no sense to wait until something dies before you start migrating from it.
> 
> Consider what is currently going on at Shaw Direct with the thruster failures on Anik F2. They're having to scramble to get everyone set up for a more recent compression scheme (AVC or maybe HEVC) so that they can run the whole system using only Anik G1. [this sounds a lot like DIRECTV's glacial transition away from MPEG2]
> 
> ...



Directv will know exactly what the fuel life situation is with each satellite, and what they would be able to do to move things around and keep going. So they have a pretty good idea today when they won't be able to offer the same level of service without launching replacement satellites.

The time you start worrying about migration is maybe 2 years from that date, not 10.

Customer equipment is not a problem - considering how many receivers they have that are way over a decade old (check my sig) given that today all HR2x are over a decade old there is no issue there. You just love to come up with fake problems because for some reason your life revolves around trolling Directv forums when you aren't a customer. Point to a picture of yourself and tell us where they touched you bad.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Also, when did the DIRECTV-12/T12 sat. have any problems?

I recall the "amelioration" procedure as an attempt to correct the local spotbeam antenna problem on DIRECTV-10/T10 which occurred shortly after its launch and early operation. But I don't remember D12/T12 ever having any issues requiring an attempt at an amelioration. ....

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> It makes no sense to try to transition people now, when the end of life for Directv satellite is a decade away. At least.
> 
> They have no reason to discourage people from signing up for satellite if they want it, and no guarantee that they can successful "transition" anyone to Directv Stream.


I don't think they are pushing to transition people right now, but that will come eventually, sooner rather than later. What is suggested in this thread is that they are looking at new hardware that might help facilitate that sort of transition. But look at their current advertising. There's almost no mention of satellite, and once ST goes away, there will be even less need to keep Sat around except for those situations where streaming won't work, at least for now. Heck, we are seeing major networks starting to think about sun-setting their linear TV infrastructure to some extent. More emphaiss on their streaming services that they can sell subscriptions to. Less expensive content (and more and more reality and game shows which cost much less), NBC even considering cutting an hour of primetime. This isn't what healthy infrastructures do. DirecTV sees where things are going. They aren't stupid. Satellite in the future will serve a niche, just like Satellite internet does. It just won't be nearly as good and the technology won't be developed in a way to promote it as THE solution any longer. As a long time sat user and an older person set in my ways, I don't like it either, but that's where we are headed. TV ten years from now is going to look MUCH different than what we see today.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

Steveknj said:


> I don't think they are pushing to transition people right now, but that will come eventually, sooner rather than later. What is suggested in this thread is that they are looking at new hardware that might help facilitate that sort of transition. But look at their current advertising. There's almost no mention of satellite, and once ST goes away, there will be even less need to keep Sat around except for those situations where streaming won't work, at least for now. Heck, we are seeing major networks starting to think about sun-setting their linear TV infrastructure to some extent. More emphaiss on their streaming services that they can sell subscriptions to. Less expensive content (and more and more reality and game shows which cost much less), NBC even considering cutting an hour of primetime. This isn't what healthy infrastructures do. DirecTV sees where things are going. They aren't stupid. Satellite in the future will serve a niche, just like Satellite internet does. It just won't be nearly as good and the technology won't be developed in a way to promote it as THE solution any longer. As a long time sat user and an older person set in my ways, I don't like it either, but that's where we are headed. TV ten years from now is going to look MUCH different than what we see today.


will live steaming tv get multicast? Maybe for some ISP's?? Satellite feeds for the sports bookies / bar's to show live sports (maybe even an commercial only service?) Let's say down the road netflix / hbo / etc add's sports well right now you can't get HBO / netflix at commercial public view locations


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

JoeTheDragon said:


> will live steaming tv get multicast? Maybe for some ISP's?? Satellite feeds for the sports bookies / bar's to show live sports (maybe even an commercial only service?) Let's say down the road netflix / hbo / etc add's sports well right now you can't get HBO / netflix at commercial public view locations


9-8-2022 at 7:33 AM - PDT

@JoeTheDragon 

I don't know when this went into effect; but, Amazon Prime Video NOW has 'Sports' and will be broadcasting baseball and football games. My parents have Prime and WILL be watching games through Prime that WON'T be broadcasting on our DISH Network satellite services. (Since we are in California, any 'blacked out' 49ers Games will now be viewed by my parents on Prime.)


TimeLord04


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

JoeTheDragon said:


> will live steaming tv get multicast? Maybe for some ISP's?? Satellite feeds for the sports bookies / bar's to show live sports (maybe even an commercial only service?) Let's say down the road netflix / hbo / etc add's sports well right now you can't get HBO / netflix at commercial public view locations


All TBD. I don't think we know the answers to any of this yet, but I can almost guarantee that content providers are already thinking about it.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> once ST goes away, there will be even less need to keep Sat around


What % of the 14M DirecTV subs only use it for ST and/or sports? Do all the ST subs cancel their service during the off season? I don't use it for ST or sports.

Streaming already owns VOD. Not so much for live TV.

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Or in the context of this thread, all the big hit shows aging out and not being replenished? Or people stopping to watch big hit shows for VOD only content?

As an older person (your words ), you'll probably remember that network TV has gone through periods of dry spells where all the big hits aged out and they had trouble replenishing them "for a while". 

Will the networks recover this time around? Or are they even trying? TBD. They'll need hit shows either way and I'd probably guess that "today", the big money is still for a hit show on network TV.

You'll know the sky is falling when the networks only have their big hit shows on VOD. Long time away I'd wager.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

TimeLord04 said:


> 9-8-2022 at 7:33 AM - PDT
> 
> @JoeTheDragon
> 
> ...


They've had baseball games (at least Yankees) for at least 2 years now. They have the NFL Thursday night package (and have already shown one pre-season game). I think they may have MLS games (but I'm not a soccer fan). ATV+ has a Friday night baseball package. And of course ESPN+ has shown multiple games in multiple sports for a few years now.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> What % of the 14M DirecTV subs only use it for ST and/or sports? Do all the ST subs cancel their service during the off season? I don't use it for ST or sports.
> 
> Streaming already owns VOD. Not so much for live TV.
> 
> ...


I think the day of hit TV comedies is gone forever. You can't be funny without offending someone. And how many more cop shows can they come up with? Everything is moving to unscripted Reality TV so they don't have to pay writers and actors the big bucks.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> What % of the 14M DirecTV subs only use it for ST and/or sports? Do all the ST subs cancel their service during the off season? I don't use it for ST or sports.
> 
> Streaming already owns VOD. Not so much for live TV.
> 
> ...


I'm sure it's a small percentage who have ST. What I'm saying is that ST is a reason some have stuck around with DirecTV and not moved on to OTT like DirecTV Stream or YouTube TV. Without ST, that incentive is no longer there. It's not the determining factor for the demise of Sat, but it adds to it.

Sure OTA has had down cycles where classic shows are ending. What they have NEVER had was the type of On Demand viewing that has completely changed the landscape of TV viewing NOR have they had a generation of TV viewers who care little about linear TV (those pesky channel numbers for example) and are used to just watching stuff whenever they want. The DVR changed the landscape somewhat and had networks scrambling but On Demand viewing to the extent the streamers offer means that you don't even have to record something, you just click on it and watch, either as soon as it drops or whenever you feel like it, and, you are not even tethered to your TV, you can watch when you want, where you want and on whatever device you want (I don't get wanting to watch on a phone, but whatever). In fact, you don't even have to watch "professional TV" if you don't want, you can watch amateur video on YouTube or Tik Tok or whatever medium you want. OTA and or Linear TV has never had that kind of challenge. It's a permanent downslide, compatible to automobiles replacing horses, or electric lights replacing oil lamps. Sorry, you and I are just used to the old way of doing things, but ask a teen or 20 something if they care about watching linear TV. Are they going to sit and watch Blue Bloods or even Dancing With the Stars? No, they appeal to folks like me. My 20 something daughter spends much more time on TIk Tok than she does watching ABC or even HBO. Advertising dollars will go to the new mediums. This is not a sky is falling situation, this is a change in scope situation. No sky is falling, it's just a change in the weather.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

b4pjoe said:


> I think the day of hit TV comedies is gone forever. You can't be funny without offending someone. And how many more cop shows can they come up with? *Everything is moving to unscripted Reality TV so they don't have to pay writers and actors the big bucks.*


This is especially true when you consider all the competition for advertising dollars and the diminished ratings for any linear TV show not named NFL Football. Cheap is the name of the game. Just look at what DTW is doing.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> I think the day of hit TV comedies is gone forever. You can't be funny without offending someone. And how many more cop shows can they come up with? Everything is moving to unscripted Reality TV so they don't have to pay writers and actors the big bucks.


Probably. Thus I mentioned the "W" word earlier. Could you imagine the uproar if Two And A Half Men or Married With Children was put on the air today? Friends would get bashed for being white washed. Cheers would get bashed for promoting alcoholism. Even poor Steve Urkel would get bashed for poor portrayal of smart people lol. Happy Days, Threes Company, Charlies Angels would all get bashed for their portrayals of women.

There are a few interesting sitcoms in development. I'm looking forward to the Night Court reboot. Has a good cast w/ John Larroquette coming back, but I'm betting they'll "W" out a lot of the gimmicks that made that show funny and it'll just be another one and done. Dunno if there was a lot to offend people with The Big Bang Theory was there? Unless you're talking about the unfair portrayal of smart people again lol. 

Is reality TV still "a thing"? Seemed like they cancelled a lot of the Jersey Shore type shows because all the cast members tend to get into all sorts of trouble off screen. They're certainly down from their peak. Only ones I watch are AGT and Pawn Stars and Gold Rush. AGT, you can tell they are getting hard up for talent. Pawn Stars ratings are way down, etc.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I'm sure it's a small percentage who have ST. What I'm saying is that ST is a reason some have stuck around with DirecTV and not moved on to OTT like DirecTV Stream or YouTube TV. Without ST, that incentive is no longer there. It's not the determining factor for the demise of Sat, but it adds to it.
> 
> Sure OTA has had down cycles where classic shows are ending. What they have NEVER had was the type of On Demand viewing that has completely changed the landscape of TV viewing NOR have they had a generation of TV viewers who care little about linear TV (those pesky channel numbers for example) and are used to just watching stuff whenever they want. The DVR changed the landscape somewhat and had networks scrambling but On Demand viewing to the extent the streamers offer means that you don't even have to record something, you just click on it and watch, either as soon as it drops or whenever you feel like it, and, you are not even tethered to your TV, you can watch when you want, where you want and on whatever device you want (I don't get wanting to watch on a phone, but whatever). In fact, you don't even have to watch "professional TV" if you don't want, you can watch amateur video on YouTube or Tik Tok or whatever medium you want. OTA and or Linear TV has never had that kind of challenge. It's a permanent downslide, compatible to automobiles replacing horses, or electric lights replacing oil lamps. Sorry, you and I are just used to the old way of doing things, but ask a teen or 20 something if they care about watching linear TV. Are they going to sit and watch Blue Bloods or even Dancing With the Stars? No, they appeal to folks like me. My 20 something daughter spends much more time on TIk Tok than she does watching ABC or even HBO. Advertising dollars will go to the new mediums. This is not a sky is falling situation, this is a change in scope situation. No sky is falling, it's just a change in the weather.


No doubt young kids/teens aren't watching network TV, but again, I'd have to say that there aren't any hit shows on nowadays, those are all on HBO/Showtime and the VOD services. I can't even name a sitcom on the air now. The ones I watched are all gone.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> I'm looking forward to the Night Court reboot. Has a good cast w/ John Larroquette coming back


It also has The Big Bang Theory’s Melissa Rauch as Judge Abby Stone, daughter of Harry Anderson’s Judge Harry Stone. These reboots rarely are as good as they sound.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> Is reality TV still "a thing"? Seemed like they cancelled a lot of the Jersey Shore type shows because all the cast members tend to get into all sorts of trouble off screen. They're certainly down from their peak. Only ones I watch are AGT and Pawn Stars and Gold Rush. AGT, you can tell they are getting hard up for talent. Pawn Stars ratings are way down, etc.


Take a look at the content of many of the Discovery channels. The Reality garbage is alive and well. Maybe 1000-lb Sisters is your cup of tea? 🤣


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> No doubt young kids/teens aren't watching network TV, but again, I'd have to say that there aren't any hit shows on nowadays, those are all on HBO/Showtime and the VOD services. I can't even name a sitcom on the air now. The ones I watched are all gone.


You are correct. Now ask yourself why that is? You'll see very few of the types of hit shows you got in the 1980s and 1990s on network TV any more. Just look at the Emmy noms. OTA TV is barely recognized. You answered your own question. It's not a lull in quality on OTA (or even cable) TV, it's all moved somewhere else, and nobody is requiring you watch it at the time scheduled or on the linear channel either. That day is gone. You'll get an occasional blip on OTA TV, but those will be few and far between.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Maybe 1000-lb Sisters is your cup of tea? 🤣


Depends. Are they 500 each? or 1000 each?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> It also has The Big Bang Theory’s Melissa Rauch as Judge Abby Stone, daughter of Harry Anderson’s Judge Harry Stone. These reboots rarely are as good as they sound.


Well, one of the funnier running gags was Dan's approach to woman. He won a ton of emmys. No way they bring that back. But all the sight gags are PC enough. The How I Met Your Mother reboot had the same issue. Barney was the breakout character. You can't do that anymore. In the reboot, it's all just normal people. Who wants to watch normal people?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> You are correct. Now ask yourself why that is? You'll see very few of the types of hit shows you got in the 1980s and 1990s on network TV any more. Just look at the Emmy noms. OTA TV is barely recognized. You answered your own question. It's not a lull in quality on OTA (or even cable) TV, it's all moved somewhere else, and nobody is requiring you watch it at the time scheduled or on the linear channel either. That day is gone. You'll get an occasional blip on OTA TV, but those will be few and far between.


Your argument is slightly flawed since they don't have those shows on streaming/vod either. Are there any good 3 cam sit coms on any of them? Hulu has How I Met Your Father, but I wouldn't rate that as good as the original by a long shot. Streaming has the more "stylistic" shows, I guess I'd call them and I do watch some of them, well, nothing right now. Only show I'm watching is a BBC drama import on govt use of deep fakes. Also not what I'd call a great show, but good enough to fill the summer gap. Some better ones will be the upcoming seasons of Your Honor and Departure. Your Honor is on Showtime, not streaming. And Departure I think is a Canada import that Peacock picked up.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> Depends. Are they 500 each? or 1000 each?


From the photos it looks about like a 700/300 split.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Your argument is slightly flawed since they don't have those shows on streaming/vod either. Are there any good 3 cam sit coms on any of them? Hulu has How I Met Your Father, but I wouldn't rate that as good as the original by a long shot. Streaming has the more "stylistic" shows, I guess I'd call them and I do watch some of them, well, nothing right now. Only show I'm watching is a BBC drama import on govt use of deep fakes. Also not what I'd call a great show, but good enough to fill the summer gap. Some better ones will be the upcoming seasons of Your Honor and Departure. Your Honor is on Showtime, not streaming. And Departure I think is a Canada import that Peacock picked up.


Are there any good 3 cam sitcoms left on regular TV either? The best sitcom (IMO) is Young Sheldon and that's not a 3 cam sitcom. Even most of the better sitcoms have moved to streaming. Hacks, Only Murders in the Building, Barry (Ok, that's on linear HBO too) are streaming, not to mention Kim's Convenice and Workin' Moms (Netflix) and some others. I'm just saying most of the better quality shows are now streaming. What's left on regular TV is what appeals to older folks (4,000 versions of NCIS and L&O and reality and news/true crime stuff).


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Are there any good 3 cam sitcoms left on regular TV either?


Nope. That was the point . None of those types of shows on either linear OR streaming. 

I tried watching Young Sheldon and Murders, didn't like them lol. The Cleaning Lady on Fox is pretty good. Other then that I watch a few shows on ID, Discovery, History, PBS, WB, Science and NBC and a few obscure shows on OTA.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Just look at the Emmy noms. OTA TV is barely recognized.


Emmys don't pay the bills. Look at the ratings for the shows.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

b4pjoe said:


> It also has The Big Bang Theory’s Melissa Rauch as Judge Abby Stone, daughter of Harry Anderson’s Judge Harry Stone. These reboots rarely are as good as they sound.


Yea I’m not not on board with it. I was on board with the original series starring Markie Post. She helped produce ratings. 😀


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

codespy said:


> Yea I’m not not on board with it. I was on board with the original series starring Markie Post. She helped produce ratings. 😀


She'll always be Bernadette, but its not like she's cracking your TV screen either haha. I don't think Markie added a lot to the show beyond looks though. Harry was Harry, Dan was lecherous, Bull & Mac had some running gags that were popular. Roz was kept in the background. The big 3 stars were clearly Harry, Dan & the sight gags.

Remember the ep where the evil jokester judge froze harrys bench with liquid No2 so it would shatter when he gaveled? If you aren't bringing that kind of stuff back, you shouldn't call it Night Court, that was the heart of the show.

On the other hand, I loved SNLs reboot of Family Matters haha. That was great.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

[QUOTE="Steveknj, post: 3614501, member: 444449"But look at their current advertising. There's almost no mention of satellite
[/QUOTE]


That makes sense for them, because acquiring new Directv Stream customers is cheaper. Because 1) it doesn't require an installer visit or an HS17, just the clients that are required either way and 2) it is an easier sell to potential new customers in 2022 to offer something delivered over the internet than something that requires sticking a dish on your roof.

Everyone who would consider signing up for satellite services or live where they can't get good internet knows Directv is a satellite company, so it isn't like they are losing out on potential customers by promoting Directv Stream and downplaying satellite.

Preferentially signing up customers on Stream instead of satellite isn't the same thing as transitioning existing customers, which they don't need to do and won't want to do until the end of the decade. It isn't like people need five years of advance notice to plan for it if Directv someday announces an end to satellite service.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> That makes sense for them, because acquiring new Directv Stream customers is cheaper. Because 1) it doesn't require an installer visit or an HS17, just the clients that are required either way and 2) it is an easier sell to potential new customers in 2022 to offer something delivered over the internet than something that requires sticking a dish on your roof.
> 
> Everyone who would consider signing up for satellite services or live where they can't get good internet knows Directv is a satellite company, so it isn't like they are losing out on potential customers by promoting Directv Stream and downplaying satellite.
> 
> Preferentially signing up customers on Stream instead of satellite isn't the same thing as transitioning existing customers, which they don't need to do and won't want to do until the end of the decade. It isn't like people need five years of advance notice to plan for it if Directv someday announces an end to satellite service.


Except it costs DirecTV more to operate streaming and almost all streaming services are losing money and need to raise rates by double digits percentages every year. One thing I think we can all agree on is that a total of LESS THAN 0% of people factor in the cost of acquiring/operating to the company in their service choosing decisions lol.

I pick & stay with DirecTV sat because they offer me a superior service at a lower price then streaming. I really couldn't care less whether the bits going in my TV come in over the internet or whether they float down from the sky on little pillows. Well, actually, that's not entirely true, because Cox has a 1.25TB data cap and charge an outrageous $50/mo more if you want to get unlimited.

And while it'll (today) be cheaper to go streaming vs sat if you have more then 2 TVs (and you'll likely be able to get a better deal on sat for 1-2 TVs), as I've been saying for years, the low teaser prices to suck in eye balls are not going to last for long. They were that low to build a customer base. We've seen pretty consistent 25% hikes per year.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> Except it costs DirecTV more to operate streaming and almost all streaming services are losing money and need to raise rates by double digits percentages every year. One thing I think we can all agree on is that a total of LESS THAN 0% of people factor in the cost of acquiring/operating to the company in their service choosing decisions lol.
> 
> I pick & stay with DirecTV sat because they offer me a superior service at a lower price then streaming. I really couldn't care less whether the bits going in my TV come in over the internet or whether they float down from the sky on little pillows. Well, actually, that's not entirely true, because Cox has a 1.25TB data cap and charge an outrageous $50/mo more if you want to get unlimited.
> 
> And while it'll (today) be cheaper to go streaming vs sat if you have more then 2 TVs (and you'll likely be able to get a better deal on sat for 1-2 TVs), as I've been saying for years, the low teaser prices to suck in eye balls are not going to last for long. They were that low to build a customer base. We've seen pretty consistent 25% hikes per year.


I dont see how it costs more to operate streaming vs satellite


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

compnurd said:


> I dont see how it costs more to operate streaming vs satellite


Lots of ongoing AWS fees for EC2, K8s, API gateway, S3 buckets, CDNs, ingress/egress, databases, bandwidth, etc, a slew of expensive software engineers and content operators & managers. And you have to scale all that up as you add content & customers. With Sat you just toss a $500M sat into the clouds and call it a day. No scaling needed and minimal ongoing operating costs. Well, beyond running out of transponders, but not in the same sense as with cloud scaling.

Why do you think most streamers are bleeding money when they have all these customers?

Mind you, I'm not saying that Sat is here to stay . They supposedly aren't launching any new sats, so the last one will eventually fall out of the sky.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

James Long said:


> Emmys don't pay the bills. Look at the ratings for the shows.


This is true. The point being, that quality writing has moved to streaming due to all the factors mentioned previously.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> She'll always be Bernadette, but its not like she's cracking your TV screen either haha. I don't think Markie added a lot to the show beyond looks though. Harry was Harry, Dan was lecherous, Bull & Mac had some running gags that were popular. Roz was kept in the background. The big 3 stars were clearly Harry, Dan & the sight gags.
> 
> Remember the ep where the evil jokester judge froze harrys bench with liquid No2 so it would shatter when he gaveled? If you aren't bringing that kind of stuff back, you shouldn't call it Night Court, that was the heart of the show.
> 
> On the other hand, I loved SNLs reboot of Family Matters haha. That was great.


You needed Markie's character to be Dan's foil. But I agree, there's a reason why they had 3-4 different Public Defenders and that's because any of them work in that role.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> Lots of ongoing AWS fees for EC2, K8s, API gateway, S3 buckets, CDNs, ingress/egress, databases, bandwidth, etc, a slew of expensive software engineers and content operators & managers. And you have to scale all that up as you add content & customers. With Sat you just toss a $500M sat into the clouds and call it a day. No scaling needed and minimal ongoing operating costs. Well, beyond running out of transponders, but not in the same sense as with cloud scaling.
> 
> Why do you think most streamers are bleeding money when they have all these customers?
> 
> Mind you, I'm not saying that Sat is here to stay . They supposedly aren't launching any new sats, so the last one will eventually fall out of the sky.


Fairly certain it costs a good penny for Directv to operate there Broadcast centers


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> That makes sense for them, because acquiring new Directv Stream customers is cheaper. Because 1) it doesn't require an installer visit or an HS17, just the clients that are required either way and 2) it is an easier sell to potential new customers in 2022 to offer something delivered over the internet than something that requires sticking a dish on your roof.
> 
> Everyone who would consider signing up for satellite services or live where they can't get good internet knows Directv is a satellite company, so it isn't like they are losing out on potential customers by promoting Directv Stream and downplaying satellite.
> 
> Preferentially signing up customers on Stream instead of satellite isn't the same thing as transitioning existing customers, which they don't need to do and won't want to do until the end of the decade. It isn't like people need five years of advance notice to plan for it if Directv someday announces an end to satellite service.


True to some extent, but also consider the cost of maintaining a Sat customer is much higher than a streaming customer. With Sat, you have to maintain and replenish hardware, you may need to do dish maintenance and other things that may require a home visit. You have NONE of that with streaming and the vast majority of issues are probably internet related and thus have little to do with DirecTV. So from a cost standpoint the sooner they move customers to streaming the better.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

compnurd said:


> Fairly certain it costs a good penny for Directv to operate there Broadcast centers


That cost is fixed regardless of the size of the customer base. Streaming is traffic sensitive.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Lots of ongoing AWS fees for EC2, K8s, API gateway, S3 buckets, CDNs, ingress/egress, databases, bandwidth, etc, a slew of expensive software engineers and content operators & managers. And you have to scale all that up as you add content & customers. With Sat you just toss a $500M sat into the clouds and call it a day. No scaling needed and minimal ongoing operating costs. Well, beyond running out of transponders, but not in the same sense as with cloud scaling.
> 
> Why do you think most streamers are bleeding money when they have all these customers?
> 
> Mind you, I'm not saying that Sat is here to stay . They supposedly aren't launching any new sats, so the last one will eventually fall out of the sky.


You think there's ZERO costs maintaining a Sat infrastructure? What planet are you living on? Forget even maintaining everything on the DirecTV side of things (Satellites, and everything that goes with it), but what about all the equipment in the wild? Cabling, Sat Receivers, the dish, the staff to make home visits (which is VERY expensive comparatively. There is NONE of that with streaming. Customer can use their own device which is not DirecTV's responsibility, or use an Osprey which again, the customer purchases and has a limited warranty that and after that their responsibility ends unless the customer pays. So I'd say the cost is a wash most likely. As for the cost to the customer, it depends on the customer and situation, which we've discussed over and over here. For some with limited number of TVs Sat is still cheaper, for others who need multiple viewing options, streaming is cheaper. I agree, the prices will go up, but they will for Sat too.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> That cost is fixed regardless of the size of the customer base. Streaming is traffic sensitive.


So it could potentially be lower that Sat? Sure more customers will increase cost, but it will also increase revenue, so that's a wash. That's how most businesses on the planet work. More customers mean more widgets need to be purchased, a bigger venue for manufacturing and customers, and that's how you grow.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> You think there's ZERO costs maintaining a Sat infrastructure? What planet are you living on? Forget even maintaining everything on the DirecTV side of things (Satellites, and everything that goes with it), but what about all the equipment in the wild? Cabling, Sat Receivers, the dish, the staff to make home visits (which is VERY expensive comparatively. There is NONE of that with streaming. Customer can use their own device which is not DirecTV's responsibility, or use an Osprey which again, the customer purchases and has a limited warranty that and after that their responsibility ends unless the customer pays. So I'd say the cost is a wash most likely. As for the cost to the customer, it depends on the customer and situation, which we've discussed over and over here. For some with limited number of TVs Sat is still cheaper, for others who need multiple viewing options, streaming is cheaper. I agree, the prices will go up, but they will for Sat too.


Maintaining all the customer equipment likely costs DirecTV nothing and is probably a very lucrative side hustle for them.

1) all the suckers paying into PP and end up never/rarely using it -- if you're paying into PP for 12 months out of the year and you need a service call once in 5 yrs, you're extremely deep in the red
2) if you don't have PP, YOU pay for a truck roll, not for DirecTV -- if you whine, they may comp it...
3) tech savvy people will just pay/fix themselves -- replace hard drives, or wiring, etc. I had a SWM go bad, not gonna call DirecTV for that unless it was on the roof. Cheaper and faster to buy & replace the SWM myself and less hassle then waiting around all day for a sweaty dude to show up 3 hrs late.

Never said there was "ZERO" cost with Sat. I said streaming costs more.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> So it could potentially be lower that Sat? Sure more customers will increase cost, but it will also increase revenue, so that's a wash. That's how most businesses on the planet work. More customers mean more widgets need to be purchased, a bigger venue for manufacturing and customers, and that's how you grow.


No. 4K and 20 streams requires a lot of infrastructure that costs a lot of AWS $$$. You should check out the AWS cost estimators. They nickel & dime you on EVERYTHING.

How does (theoretically) adding 20 HR54s to your account cost DirecTV ANYTHING? Not like you are sucking more bits out of the air and they need to throw up another bird to accommodate. A sat doesn't care if 1 person is using it or 100M people are using it. Streaming does. And not mentioned yet, but cable also cares since you put additional drain on the infrastructure.

Sat is very cost efficient that way...


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> You needed Markie's character to be Dan's foil. But I agree, there's a reason why they had 3-4 different Public Defenders and that's because any of them work in that role.


The one in the pilot got replace, the first season one girl got fired due to creative differences. The second black one I think quit or got pushed out. I believe the producers always wanted Markie, but she wasn't available at first. I think Fall Guy if I recall? Yeah, she's everyones favorite though.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> With Sat, you have to maintain and replenish hardware.


As mentioned in another thread the other stuff you mentioned is all covered and profitable for them. You need a box for their streaming service... or, per this forum, that's the recommended approach.

DirecTV hasn't released new hardware in years. This thread is the first inkling of anything new in a long, long time.

They also haven't added any features to the DVRs in years, its just in maintenance mode and likely covered by a few developers that are probably only working on it part time.

I am a software engineer and I can tell you that's how it works on a maintenance mode project. Management gets into the if it ain't broke, don't fix it mode and do as little as possible on it. But they keep 1 or 2 devs on it to babysit it. I used to work at a company where the project went from 8 devs to just me baby sitting it part time. Very part time. I literally spent about 1 - 2 minutes on it per day.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Maintaining all the customer equipment likely costs DirecTV nothing and is probably a very lucrative side hustle for them.
> 
> 1) all the suckers paying into PP and end up never/rarely using it -- if you're paying into PP for 12 months out of the year and you need a service call once in 5 yrs, you're extremely deep in the red
> 2) if you don't have PP, YOU pay for a truck roll, not for DirecTV -- if you whine, they may comp it...
> ...


OK, it's a waste of my time arguing this. It costs nothing, sure, sending people to people's homes to install or fix (often in deal that make it at the company's expense costs nothing. Recycling old equipment costs nothing. Having banks and banks of CSRs available costs nothing. EVERY infrastructure has some costs, some are fixed costs, some are dependent on other factors. The beancounters figure all of that out. I don't know what the costs of both are, but I can only go by what the CEOs (both AT&T and the new management have been saying) and they both have said that the model where you have to have line pulls and Sat installations and multiple instances of DirecTV supported hardware is not a cost effective solution. It's expensive to maintain fleets of contracted workers to do these installation, it's expensive to keep hardware inventory on hand, it's expensive to keep fixing bugs in software and it's expensive to keep a staff of CSRs and train them, and, it's expensive to have a customer base who often expects a ton of freebies to stay. While there is infrastructure costs for streaming too, there's NO home visits, hardware is offered by not required and is OWNED by the customer, most issues are caused by internet issues, or router issues that are not DirecTV's responsibility. And for consumers the cost may or may not be less for streaming, depending on their own situations. Thus, what works for you, doesn't work for me. If this wasn't the case, why require customers to be on a two year contract? Because the cost of bringing that customer onboard requires they stay for two years. Heck even if you quit, there's a cost to DirecTV to send all your crap back to them, where streaming is one call, and it's done.

But yeah, you love sat and don't want to change. I get that, and you'll defend it as long as it works for you. I get that too. I also never believed that a streaming OTT service would ever work for me. It worked fine. It's not the reason I went back. It was just missing a couple of key channels. Once those are there, I'll go back to streaming (once my contract is up).


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> No. 4K and 20 streams requires a lot of infrastructure that costs a lot of AWS $$$. You should check out the AWS cost estimators. They nickel & dime you on EVERYTHING.
> 
> How does (theoretically) adding 20 HR54s to your account cost DirecTV ANYTHING? Not like you are sucking more bits out of the air and they need to throw up another bird to accommodate. A sat doesn't care if 1 person is using it or 100M people are using it. Streaming does. And not mentioned yet, but cable also cares since you put additional drain on the infrastructure.
> 
> Sat is very cost efficient that way...


There's no 4k on DirecTV streaming that I'm aware of.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> OK, it's a waste of my time arguing this. It costs nothing, sure, sending people to people's homes to install or fix (often in deal that make it at the company's expense costs nothing. Recycling old equipment costs nothing. Having banks and banks of CSRs available costs nothing. EVERY infrastructure has some costs, some are fixed costs, some are dependent on other factors. The beancounters figure all of that out. I don't know what the costs of both are, but I can only go by what the CEOs (both AT&T and the new management have been saying) and they both have said that the model where you have to have line pulls and Sat installations and multiple instances of DirecTV supported hardware is not a cost effective solution. It's expensive to maintain fleets of contracted workers to do these installation, it's expensive to keep hardware inventory on hand, it's expensive to keep fixing bugs in software and it's expensive to keep a staff of CSRs and train them, and, it's expensive to have a customer base who often expects a ton of freebies to stay. While there is infrastructure costs for streaming too, there's NO home visits, hardware is offered by not required and is OWNED by the customer, most issues are caused by internet issues, or router issues that are not DirecTV's responsibility. And for consumers the cost may or may not be less for streaming, depending on their own situations. Thus, what works for you, doesn't work for me. If this wasn't the case, why require customers to be on a two year contract? Because the cost of bringing that customer onboard requires they stay for two years. Heck even if you quit, there's a cost to DirecTV to send all your crap back to them, where streaming is one call, and it's done.
> 
> But yeah, you love sat and don't want to change. I get that, and you'll defend it as long as it works for you. I get that too. I also never believed that a streaming OTT service would ever work for me. It worked fine. It's not the reason I went back. It was just missing a couple of key channels. Once those are there, I'll go back to streaming (once my contract is up).


Same ol' Steve . Somebody disagrees with you and you start flailing around making ridiculous, inaccurate comments.

You're still missing the big picture and the costs of things and how other things pay for yet other things.

If they roll a sweaty dude to your house to show up 3 hours late, does he get paid? Yes, by his employer who happens to be DirecTV.

Does DirecTV roll a sweaty dude to your house to show up 3 hours late for free? No. You've either paid the sweaty dude to show up at your house 3 late through PP many times over or through a one time fee.

Does a one time fee pay for the sweaty dude's entire salary? Duh. No. Do all the people who pay in to the PP and never use it pay for the sweaty dude's entire salary? Probably.

Does DirecTV give you hardware for free? No. You pay a $199 fee and then $7/mo for it. I've had DirecTV for 20 yrs. That means I've paid $199 + 12 x 20 = $1872 (first box free). Do you really think it costs them $1872 for a box?

Then you bring up the recycling of returned boxes? Come on now Steve, now you're flailing again. They don't do anything with them. They blow the dust off and test the box quickly. If it works, they ship it out to a another customer for yet ANOTHER $199 fee plus $7/mo. If they don't work, they might replace the HD. If that doesn't work, they likely toss them.

Lease fees and the $199 fee have paid for every box in existence many, many times over. That's well known. If they've been paid for many, many times over, wouldn't it mean that after paying for them 2 or 3 times, its all gravy?

You're talking about bean counters, but you still haven't explained why most streaming services are in the deep red.

Seems like the issue is that you don't understand how cloud costs work and scale to the user base where as Sat doesn't.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> to keep a staff of CSRs *and* *train them*


Oh man, I missed that part the first time around. Good one Steve!!!


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Seems like the issue is that you don't understand how cloud costs work and scale to the user base where as Sat doesn't.


The answer to that is simple......They are paying too much for content and lowballing their prices to bring in customers. it's as simple as that. Nobody ever said that the prices won't go up. They will. So will DirecTV Satellite. Why? Because it costs a lot of money for content and these channels, for now the content providers (i.e. the cable channels) are not going to give a discount even though their viewership has decreased, and ESPECIALLY since advertising will dry up too and they will need to make that up from someone. And if they actually say screw it, we are going to let that channel go, people will scream bloody murder. Especially stations like ESPN which have loyal followings.

I am also in the software business and I fully understand what you are saying. But I also understand business and how it works. Once you have less and less subs, the fixed costs per subscriber go up. They don't magically go away. That's why I said, there's potential that it could cost LESS per subscriber eventually for streaming. I would imagine a company with the size and scale of DirecTV might get much better rates than whatever company you work with for things like AWS and so forth and thus those costs are more manageable than the types of costs you are seeing. Obviously I don't know who you work for so that's impossible for me to say for certain.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> The answer to that is simple......They are paying too much for content and lowballing their prices to bring in customers. it's as simple as that. Nobody ever said that the prices won't go up. They will. So will DirecTV Satellite.


Yup. They raise them every Jan/Feb usually by 4-5% in my case. More if you include my out the door pricing. Streamers raise it by 25%.

All I'm saying is that the prices will eventually balance out between the two, so it'll really come down to your arbitrary personal preference. DirecTV will go away when the sats die if they don't replace them. Or assuming they haven't merged with Dish by then.



Steveknj said:


> Why? Because it costs a lot of money for content and these channels, for now the content providers (i.e. the cable channels) are not going to give a discount even though their viewership has decreased, and ESPECIALLY since advertising will dry up too and they will need to make that up from someone. And if they actually say screw it, we are going to let that channel go, people will scream bloody murder. Especially stations like ESPN which have loyal followings.


AT&T believed they could renegotiate pricing with the combined user base, but that didn't pan out.



Steveknj said:


> I am also in the software business and I fully understand what you are saying. But I also understand business and how it works. Once you have less and less subs, the fixed costs per subscriber go up. They don't magically go away.


Fair enough if you want to spin it that way. $X million / 15M users has a lower cost per user then $X million / 13M users. Even though X = X. A more valid point is they may get better deals with 15M vs. 13M, but who knows how the brackets work there and I suspect if Party A had 15M and Party B had 15M they probably wouldn't be paying Content Provider A the same rate if somebody in Party A belongs to somebody in Provider A's bridge club, etc.



Steveknj said:


> That's why I said, there's potential that it could cost LESS per subscriber eventually for streaming. I would imagine a company with the size and scale of DirecTV might get much better rates than whatever company you work with for things like AWS and so forth and thus those costs are more manageable than the types of costs you are seeing. Obviously I don't know who you work for so that's impossible for me to say for certain.


The company I work for is quite a bit more powerful then DirecTV , so I'd wager we're getting better pricing. The team I'm on is a relatively small cog in the overall machinery and we're paying about $600K/mo in AWS costs just for our stuff.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Steveknj said:


> True to some extent, but also consider the cost of maintaining a Sat customer is much higher than a streaming customer. With Sat, you have to maintain and replenish hardware, you may need to do dish maintenance and other things that may require a home visit. You have NONE of that with streaming and the vast majority of issues are probably internet related and thus have little to do with DirecTV. So from a cost standpoint the sooner they move customers to streaming the better.


Whatever "maintaining and replenishing hardware" might add up to, it is paid for 10x over by the $8 per box per month fee you pay, and the $15 per month fee for the Genie.

Directv is much more profitable than Directv Stream, because of all those fees it adds that are almost all profit. That's the biggest reason they don't want to "migrate" anyone off satellite, even if they could guarantee they'd land on Stream and stay there.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Whatever "maintaining and replenishing hardware" might add up to, it is paid for 10x over by the $8 per box per month fee you pay, and the $15 per month fee for the Genie.
> 
> Directv is much more profitable than Directv Stream, because of all those fees it adds that are almost all profit. That's the biggest reason they don't want to "migrate" anyone off satellite, even if they could guarantee they'd land on Stream and stay there.


Yup.

Outlet fees = free money
PP = mostly free money
WHDVR fee = free money
HD fee = free money
DVR fee = free money
Box $199 fee = free money


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> OK, it's a waste of my time arguing this. It costs nothing, sure, sending people to people's homes to install or fix (often in deal that make it at the company's expense costs nothing.


You speak as if there isn't going to be any need to replace DIRECTV STREAM devices.


> Recycling old equipment costs nothing.


It isn't cost-free, but it beats the daylights out of designing and building new equipment.


> Having banks and banks of CSRs available costs nothing.


What makes you think that supporting relatively large number of wildly different streaming boxes is going to require less manpower? When you put the hardware responsibility in the lap of the customer, it doesn't make supporting their choices any easier.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> Directv is much more profitable than Directv Stream, because of all those fees it adds that are almost all profit. That's the biggest reason they don't want to "migrate" anyone off satellite, even if they could guarantee they'd land on Stream and stay there.


The problem for DirecTV, of course, is that people DO keep migrating off their satellite TV service. About 2 million of them each year for a few years now. And I expect that number will be even higher in 2023, after the loss of NFL Sunday Ticket.

It doesn't matter how efficient or profitable a service is if no one wants it any more. The good ol' days for the cable TV industry -- whether delivered via coax or DBS -- are ending. People are shifting to lower cost, lower profit margin services, whether DTC streaming services like Netflix or vMVPDs like YouTube TV. And DirecTV knows that over time, nearly all their satellite customers with home broadband (except for a few die-hard DBS enthusiasts) will dump them for _some_ streaming service or another. So DirecTV Stream is their attempt to retain at least some of those customers. Maybe they'd prefer their sat customers to stick around until the last bird dies but they know almost none will. So better to try to convert you into a Stream customer than lose you completely.

Given the installation/acquisition costs of new sat customers, and the amount of churn that exists, I can believe that DirecTV Stream might be as profitable for them as a new sat customer is over the first two years of service, i.e. the length of their initial contract. Beyond that, probably not. But then, given the rate at which the industry, and especially DirecTV satellite service, is losing customers, they're probably not much concerned about a longer time horizon than that. TPG is almost certainly not concerned with longer than that as they bought their stake a year ago and reportedly want to be out within 3 years. So right now is all about re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, getting the books tidied up as best they can, to try to position the company for some kind of M&A deal.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm wondering where is more info about new DTV hardware ?!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> I'm wondering where is more info about new DTV hardware ?!


Since the "facts" of this discussion came uniquely from parsing the text of a third-party customer survey, you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for authoritative technical information.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> People are shifting to lower cost, lower profit margin services, whether DTC streaming services like Netflix or vMVPDs like YouTube TV.


I submit that it is the content owners that are seeking to make more profit on their content by going DTC rather than spreading profits around through more costly multi-party distribution schemes.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

One thing I was thinking about letting the C71-KW and A21-KW work with the HS-17 and HR-54 could those boxes be able to have the Satellite TV settings like view signal strength and whole home DVR, ect? Also View the HS-17 and HR-54's TV Apps?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

So, that mentioned HS27 wouldn't materialize ?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> One thing I was thinking about letting the C71-KW and A21-KW work with the HS-17 and HR-54 could those boxes be able to have the Satellite TV settings like view signal strength and whole home DVR, ect? Also View the HS-17 and HR-54's TV Apps?


I would expect that anything that replaces a Genie Mini would support whatever the Genie Mini does as well as being able to run Android TV apps. I would not expect that it would allow you to run Genie apps since Score Guide is the only TV App that isn't already available for Google TV.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> So, that mentioned HS27 wouldn't materialize ?


The HS27 was reasoned to be a _server_ (the "S" in HS -- Headless Server). We're talking about a possible Android client here and the survey makes no mention of an associated server.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

harsh said:


> We're talking about a possible Android client here


*New DirecTV Hardware?*


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> > You speak as if there isn't going to be any need to replace DIRECTV STREAM devices.
> 
> 
> Streaming devices are owned not leased. DirecTV and once the warranty is up, it's on us, the consumer to replace. DirecTV has little responsibility at that point.
> ...


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Which they would still need to do. Think the HS17 will last forever? Not innovatiing is a death knell for any company.


What innovation has there been on the cell phone in, oh I dunno, 10 yrs? Larger screen? better camera? getting rid of the headphone jack? longer battery life? none of those are exactly innovations. I have an iPhone 11, and they just announced the 14. Same s*** different day. Only thing "innovative" is on the 14 Pro, they have the dynamic island thing which looks kind of cool, but its just a gimmick not an innovative feature.

What innovation has there been on the DVR? DirecTV or otherwise in 10+ years?
Or TVs?
Or PCs?
Or Windows?

Even better, can you name a killer feature that the HR54 doesn't have? Is it the fastest or most modern UI? Well, I don't have any speed complaints with it compared to the HR24 that's for sure.

Catch my drift? Can you name a single thing that has had a game changing innovation in recent times? Everything has just been baby step iterations for a long long time.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Even better, can you name a killer feature that the HR54 doesn't have?


Sure. But are you willing to accept what I mention as "killer features" and not dismiss them as unimportant "minor changes"? A 4K UHD output without using a client would be an improvement. Increasing the number of tuners would be an improvement (more of an HS17 limitation since one can add additional tuners to a HR54 by adding additional satellite receivers - up to the limit of SWM). Four up choose your own channels on the same screen would be an improvement. Not new innovations but missing from the HR54 and likely never to be available. The focus is on clients and streaming.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> Sure. But are you willing to accept what I mention as "killer features" and not dismiss them as unimportant "minor changes"? A 4K UHD output without using a client would be an improvement. Increasing the number of tuners would be an improvement (more of an HS17 limitation since one can add additional tuners to a HR54 by adding additional satellite receivers - up to the limit of SWM). Four up choose your own channels on the same screen would be an improvement. Not new innovations but missing from the HR54 and likely never to be available. The focus is on clients and streaming.


I've always said the HS17 was a terrible design for being headless (as well as its form factor that isn't conducive to general AV furniture design). So I'd classify a server with 4K output as more of "undoing a major f up" . That being said, except for a few documentaries and some sports, there is little to no linear 4K content, so not sure I would classify that as killer if there is nothing to watch with it.

There's plenty of iterative improvements you can make like more tuners and UI improvements. I for one miss the PIG controls.

I haven't upgraded from my iPhone 11 because 12 & 13 & 14 are pretty much the same exact phone. Even Steve Jobs daughter said that haha. I'm on wifi at "work" and at "home" so 5G data isn't a game changer for me. Only thing that may convince me to upgrade is the dynamic island thing, but not sure that's worth dropping $600 on lol. More of a party trick like Siri was.

Not saying I have killer ideas for any of these items either. If I did, I'd be on my yacht now and not on dbstalk haha.

But Steve's comment makes it sound like everybody is releasing huge killer game changer features on a yearly basis except DirecTV which simply isn't true since I'd be hard pressed to name ANY company that has released a game changer feature or product in recent times.

Actually, the one company that has put out a game changer product in recent times that comes to my mind atm is Tesla.

Streaming was an innovation that Netflix started, but that's out of the "recent times" envelope.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Streaming devices are owned not leased. DirecTV and once the warranty is up, it's on us, the consumer to replace. DirecTV has little responsibility at that point.


Channel numbers aren't supported on other platforms (even if they do have keyboards). DIRECTV could add channel number support to the standard DIRECTV App for Android TV and iOS but they apparently havn't seen fit. As such, DIRECTV has a responsibility to provide a streamer that supports channel numbers along with keeping up with the requirements of the day that don't seem to be slowing their advance.


> Not innovatiing is a death knell for any company.


Not innovating new hardware is clearly something DIRECTV has been engaging in for quite a few (3-4?) years now. It is a business decision that was made somewhere in time and one that they've been sticking with as evidenced by the non-release of the A21KW streaming box.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

I thought when Dish introduced the receiver with what, 16 tuners, that was a pretty killer feature. I wish DIRECTV would do that.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> Channel numbers aren't supported on other platforms (even if they do have keyboards). DIRECTV could add channel number support to the standard DIRECTV App for Android TV and iOS but they apparently havn't seen fit. As such, DIRECTV has a responsibility to provide a streamer that supports channel numbers along with keeping up with the requirements of the day that don't seem to be slowing their advance.


How could they support channel numbers on a device that its own remote doesn't have channel buttons on it? Would they have to make it support every remote that has channel buttons on it. I just finished up a 5 day trial on DIRECTV Stream. My LG remote has channel numbers and can control the Apple TV box but the channel numbers on the that remote didn't work on the DirecTV Stream app.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> I thought when Dish introduced the receiver with what, 16 tuners, that was a pretty killer feature. I wish DIRECTV would do that.


I'm far from convinced that there is a use case for 16 tuners but I could very much see where DIRECTV could benefit from going to 10 (since stacking of the big LIL broadcast channels on a single tuner as DISH does isn't possible given SWiM constraints).


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

The problem with 10 is it would probably be in a server with only clients allowed. I have 14 tuners now that I need on 7 TV's. We record a lot. I could get by with 5 TV's but I need my 14 tuners. If DirecTV would allow me to have 2 HR54's I could get rid of 2 HR-24's and I would have 15 tuners but I don't see them relenting on the one genie limit.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> How could they support channel numbers on a device that its own remote doesn't have channel buttons on it? Would they have to make it support every remote that has channel buttons on it. I just finished up a 5 day trial on DIRECTV Stream. My LG remote has channel numbers and can control the Apple TV box but the channel numbers on the that remote didn't work on the DirecTV Stream app.


They offer channel numbers on all supported devices(Fire Stick/ATV etc) Its more of a different way to sort the guide


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> The problem with 10 is it would probably be in a server with only clients allowed. I have 14 tuners now that I need on 7 TV's. We record a lot. I could get by with 5 TV's but I need my 14 tuners. If DirecTV would allow me to have 2 HR54's I could get rid of 2 HR-24's and I would have 15 tuners but I don't see them relenting on the one genie limit.


For your use case, sure. We've heard of some with 16 TVs lol. I only have one, so I think we're both outliers and the typical house hold would have 3 - 5.

The REAL headscratcher here is what you record with 14 tuners lol. My 2 week TODO list right now has maybe 6 items .


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

compnurd said:


> They offer channel numbers on all supported devices(Fire Stick/ATV etc) Its more of a different way to sort the guide


If I went streaming, I'd want channel numbers. I've memorized the channel numbers for what I watch by now and with the muscle memory on the remote can go there without even looking.

But I'm an outlier in my TV watching habits. I'm impatient, so I like to watch stuff same day. My main use case for recording is to FF through commercials.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> I'm far from convinced that there is a use case for 16 tuners but I could very much see where DIRECTV could benefit from going to 10 (since stacking of the big LIL broadcast channels on a single tuner as DISH does isn't possible given SWiM constraints).


The concept is "conflict free". 16 should be enough to create a "conflict free" environment for most homes although I would prefer 24 tuners (if the H3 can handle the throughput). Or allow multiple receivers where an H3 pulls 16 tuners and smaller receivers can pull the other eight (closer to SWM design with multiple satellite receivers on one coax). Overall 16 is a good number and provides the desired "conflict free" experience DISH wants to offer.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

compnurd said:


> They offer channel numbers on all supported devices(Fire Stick/ATV etc) Its more of a different way to sort the guide


Yeah I noticed that but still a pain to switch from channel 2 to 671. The box/remote would be a must.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> The REAL headscratcher here is what you record with 14 tuners lol. My 2 week TODO list right now has maybe 6 items .


Well right now I don't need 14. Once the new shows fire up I pretty much record everything I want to watch and watch later so I can FF through commercials. Of course with the quality of shows these days I may be able to do with fewer tuners than what I previously needed.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Well right now I don't need 14. Once the new shows fire up I pretty much record everything I want to watch and watch later so I can FF through commercials. Of course with the quality of shows these days I may be able to do with fewer tuners than what I previously needed.


Yeah, I do the same with a 15 - 30 min buffer. Still can't imagine there being 14 shows on at the same time.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Overall 16 is a good number and provides the desired "conflict free" experience DISH wants to offer.





b4pjoe said:


> Of course with the quality of shows these days I may be able to do with fewer tuners than what I previously needed.





SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, I do the same with a 15 - 30 min buffer. Still can't imagine there being 14 shows on at the same time.


As an individual, I often have trouble finding more than two things on at the same time (and at least one of them will typically replay fairly soon). The most I've ever used (again, as an individual) is three tuners and I don't see that number increasing in the future as more shows move towards streaming.

I suppose if I were an avid sports follower, the number might be greater but probably not more than eight.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, I do the same with a 15 - 30 min buffer. Still can't imagine there being 14 shows on at the same time.


Three different people may be watching live at the same time plus all of us may be recording multiple things.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

James Long said:


> Not new innovations but missing from the HR54 and likely never to be available. The focus is on clients and streaming.


Yup. I'll be mildly surprised if the forthcoming new client receiver is even exclusive to the satellite side as opposed to being a dual-purpose box that can work standalone for DTV Stream and in conjunction with an HR54 or HS17 for satellite. Hard to see them sinking money into developing new equipment exclusively for the declining sat business, especially with the expectation that sooner or later it will merge with DISH, which is generally regarded as having the superior hardware platform. So I don't expect we'll ever see an HR64 or HS27.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Yup. I'll be mildly surprised if the forthcoming new client receiver is even exclusive to the satellite side as opposed to being a dual-purpose box that can work standalone for DTV Stream and in conjunction with an HR54 or HS17 for satellite. Hard to see them sinking money into developing new equipment exclusively for the declining sat business, especially with the expectation that sooner or later it will merge with DISH, which is generally regarded as having the superior hardware platform. So I don't expect we'll ever see an HR64 or HS27.


I'd be surprised if its NOT exclusive to the sat side.

1. does tech support have a unified department that supports both the streaming and the sat side today? If they are separate, then you'd have to "train" all those people on the unified box vs. just training the sat peeps.
2. the sat boxes already support streaming (vod) and have for years. The streaming boxes don't support sat and have no need to.
3. adding all the electronics and code to support both service types would make the boxes more expensive when only the sat peeps need the sat bits. And we've seen DirecTV rip out stuff that only the minority wants (like OTA and Tivo).

So DirecTV might see this as a way to transition people to the streaming side, but doesn't make sense to do that 10 years ahead of time when the tech will be more advanced in 5 - 7 yrs.

My guess is its probably a revamped sat client that can fall back to internet during rain fade, etc.

Then again, who says this will ever see the light of day? For the longer term folks here... we're still waiting on that dual tuner PCI card that was "leaked" / "announced" like 15 yrs ago 🤪 . Then again x2, they did end up releasing a mpeg4 compatible DirecTivo.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> What innovation has there been on the cell phone in, oh I dunno, 10 yrs? Larger screen? better camera? getting rid of the headphone jack? longer battery life? none of those are exactly innovations. I have an iPhone 11, and they just announced the 14. Same s*** different day. Only thing "innovative" is on the 14 Pro, they have the dynamic island thing which looks kind of cool, but its just a gimmick not an innovative feature.
> 
> What innovation has there been on the DVR? DirecTV or otherwise in 10+ years?
> Or TVs?
> ...


If I had all day I can list the innovations on the cell phone, on TVs on PCs or Windows in the last 10 years. But I don't. Things get better over time and maybe the things looks "the same to you" but I can guarantee your phone is faster than it was 10 years ago, your TV's resolution is MUCH better, Windows has gone through TWO radical changes in the last 10 years, PCs are all much faster. Does that matter to you? Perhaps not, but to say none of that is new innovation is putting your head in the sand. You don't need RADICAL innovation, you need to stay with the times. You need to improve. DirecTV hasn't had new equipment in MANY years. That's not even MINOR innovation, that's NO innovation. While the competition offers streaming on the same box for example, DirecTV actually took away Pandora (at least I don't see it any more).


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> Channel numbers aren't supported on other platforms (even if they do have keyboards). DIRECTV could add channel number support to the standard DIRECTV App for Android TV and iOS but they apparently havn't seen fit. As such, *DIRECTV has a responsibility to provide a streamer that supports channel numbers along with keeping up with the requirements of the day that don't seem to be slowing their advance.*
> Not innovating new hardware is clearly something DIRECTV has been engaging in for quite a few (3-4?) years now. It is a business decision that was made somewhere in time and one that they've been sticking with as evidenced by the non-release of the A21KW streaming box.


Why? Every new system coming out has foregone channel numbers. I like channel numbers too, but like the headphone jack that people screamed about when it went away, people find alternatives. I don't think they need channel numbers to compete with YouTubeTV or Hulu or Fubo or any of the other streamers that work on third party boxes. You want channel numbers, buy an Oprey.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> If I had all day I can list the innovations on the cell phone, on TVs on PCs or Windows in the last 10 years. But I don't. Things get better over time and maybe the things looks "the same to you" but I can guarantee your phone is faster than it was 10 years ago, your TV's resolution is MUCH better, Windows has gone through TWO radical changes in the last 10 years, PCs are all much faster. Does that matter to you? Perhaps not, but to say none of that is new innovation is putting your head in the sand. You don't need RADICAL innovation, you need to stay with the times. You need to improve. DirecTV hasn't had new equipment in MANY years. That's not even MINOR innovation, that's NO innovation. While the competition offers streaming on the same box for example, DirecTV actually took away Pandora (at least I don't see it any more).


Ok, I see the problem. You're confused on the meaning of the word "innovation".

*innovation*
noun
in·no·va·tion | \ ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən \

*Definition of innovation*

1*: *a new idea, method, or device

Innovation doesn't mean your PC went from 3.4ghz to 3.5ghz. "Things get better over time" isn't innovation, it's an iterative process. And no, Windows 10 -> Windows 11 isn't an innovation either. It's again an iterative process. Neither is adding a 17th USB port to your motherboard or that you added a inch to your phone or it got a new bezel or an improved camera.

Digital TV is an innovation
HDR / Dolby Vision is an innovation
Smart Phones / TVs / devices is an innovation
OLED is an innovation
Siri/Alexa is an innovation
Electric car is an innovation

Now if you want to restate your argument that DirecTV hasn't iterated on their DVRs in years, that would still be false since they release software updates all the time.

"DirecTV hasn't iterated on their hardware in years" would be an actual factual statement.

And before you start your next bout of flailing, no, I'm not in charge of deciding whether something is an innovation or not, but the fact that you think a "non radical innovation" is actually a real thing says that you don't know what the word means .


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

b4pjoe said:


> Yeah I noticed that but still a pain to switch from channel 2 to 671. The box/remote would be a must.


9-12-2022 at 1:02 PM - PDT

On DISH, with the Hopper3, (H3), and our Wireless Joey STBs, (we have four, (4), of these), we use the Model '54' Remotes on each Joey and one '54' on the H3. (Actually, the H3 sits in our Attic/Office NOT being viewed as a TV Source in our home. I initially wanted the H3 to be 'headless'; (like the U-Verse ViP-2550 DVR on our old U-300 TV Services), BUT, since the H3 is more 'computer' than a DVR/STB, it really MUST have at least a computer monitor attached for 'diagnostics' and such. We have an ASUS VE-228 22" Monitor attached to the H3 for 'diagnostics' and when we have the need of Customer Service for arisen issues of lack of service.) The '54' Model Remotes have a 'Recall' Button almost dead center on the remote. When you want to 'flip' between two different channels, (once your desired channels have been entered), you just hit 'Recall' to immediately switch to the other chosen channel.


TimeLord04


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

b4pjoe said:


> Well right now I don't need 14. Once the new shows fire up I pretty much record everything I want to watch and watch later so I can FF through commercials. Of course with the quality of shows these days I may be able to do with fewer tuners than what I previously needed.


1:10 PM - PDT

We DON'T really need the 16 Streams of the H3, either; BUT, this is a MARKED IMPROVEMENT over U-Verse Uxyz TV Services. The U-Verse TV packages, (and we were on the U-300 Package, before switching to DISH), ARE LOCKED at a MAXIMUM of Four, (4), Streams.... SO, on U-Verse, you can record 3 Shows and watch one live, or record 4 Shows and watch one of the recordings, 'live'-while being recorded.... OR, force someone in the house to have to KILL a Stream to free up one, (1), Stream Band.

The day we switched to DISH, ALL this changed for the better! While we don't get up to recording 12 Streams and then can watch 4 others anywhere in the house with a Joey, we have managed to get to 8 Streams recording while watching two, (2), other Streams live. Also, recording space seems more flexible on the H3 than the U-Verse ViP-2550, and we don't have to erase recorded shows until WE WANT to erase them. PLUS, the advantage of installing an External Drive to the H3 to increase the recording space up to 7TB of External Drive Space. U-Verse DOESN'T let you connect External Drives.


TimeLord04


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

TimeLord04 said:


> 9-12-2022 at 1:02 PM - PDT
> 
> On DISH, with the Hopper3, (H3), and our Wireless Joey STBs, (we have four, (4), of these), we use the Model '54' Remotes on each Joey and one '54' on the H3. (Actually, the H3 sits in our Attic/Office NOT being viewed as a TV Source in our home. I initially wanted the H3 to be 'headless'; (like the U-Verse ViP-2550 DVR on our old U-300 TV Services), BUT, since the H3 is more 'computer' than a DVR/STB, it really MUST have at least a computer monitor attached for 'diagnostics' and such. We have an ASUS VE-228 22" Monitor attached to the H3 for 'diagnostics' and when we have the need of Customer Service for arisen issues of lack of service.) The '54' Model Remotes have a 'Recall' Button almost dead center on the remote. When you want to 'flip' between two different channels, (once your desired channels have been entered), you just hit 'Recall' to immediately switch to the other chosen channel.
> 
> ...


I think the Hopper 3 looks too big. I think it's about 16" wide, right? Too bad DTV couldn't do one more DVR that would really small not sure how small it could get having something like the PS5's 1 TB SSD drive. It would have at least 5 tuners, HDMI 2.1 output, WIFI 6 and broadband for bad weather backup. Also have the Android TV operator's tier.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

TimeLord04 said:


> 9-12-2022 at 1:02 PM - PDT
> 
> On DISH, with the Hopper3, (H3), and our Wireless Joey STBs, (we have four, (4), of these), we use the Model '54' Remotes on each Joey and one '54' on the H3. (Actually, the H3 sits in our Attic/Office NOT being viewed as a TV Source in our home. I initially wanted the H3 to be 'headless'; (like the U-Verse ViP-2550 DVR on our old U-300 TV Services), BUT, since the H3 is more 'computer' than a DVR/STB, it really MUST have at least a computer monitor attached for 'diagnostics' and such. We have an ASUS VE-228 22" Monitor attached to the H3 for 'diagnostics' and when we have the need of Customer Service for arisen issues of lack of service.) The '54' Model Remotes have a 'Recall' Button almost dead center on the remote. When you want to 'flip' between two different channels, (once your desired channels have been entered), you just hit 'Recall' to immediately switch to the other chosen channel.
> 
> ...


The DIRECTV STREAM app on the ATV also has recent channels which does help once the channels have been viewed so they show up in the recent channels.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> I'd be surprised if its NOT exclusive to the sat side.
> 
> 1. does tech support have a unified department that supports both the streaming and the sat side today? If they are separate, then you'd have to "train" all those people on the unified box vs. just training the sat peeps.
> 2. the sat boxes already support streaming (vod) and have for years. The streaming boxes don't support sat and have no need to.
> ...


Im with Nash on this one... and I think the unifying of the app is a precursor.. The box will act as a Genie Client or a Directv Stream box.. Your login to the device will dictate how the app behaves.. You have Sat, it connects to your Genie and acts like a client.. You have Stream is will act like the Osprey does now


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Ok, I see the problem. You're confused on the meaning of the word "innovation".
> 
> *innovation*
> noun
> ...


So you think there's ZERO innovations in Windows, on PCs, in Cell phones, on TVs. Living in a cave perhaps?

Off the top of my head, innovations on some of the products you mentioned over the last 10 years (2012 forward)

Windows 8 - touchscreen OS, brand new on a PC at this point
PCs - Said touch screens
TVs - you mentioned a few of them. Dolby VIsion 2014
Smart Phones - Under screen fingerprint readers, MANY camera innovations (Magic Eraser on Android Pixel phones), foldable smart phones. 2014

By your own definition, innovation does NOT have to be major. There could be subtle innovation that just makes things better, or something that we the user don't see, but is innovative. For example, the Assembly Line was not consumer fronting but of course had a huge effect on how people got cars.


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## TimeLord04 (Sep 5, 2021)

CraigerM said:


> I think the Hopper 3 looks too big. I think it's about 16" wide, right? Too bad DTV couldn't do one more DVR that would really small not sure how small it could get having something like the PS5's 1 TB SSD drive. It would have at least 5 tuners, HDMI 2.1 output, WIFI 6 and broadband for bad weather backup. Also have the Android TV operator's tier.


1:23 PM - PDT

@CraigerM 

I haven't measured the H3 DVR, but at a glance, you are probably close if not exact on the length of the H3. But, again, for us the H3 sits, unused/unviewed directly. It's a box in the Attic/Office and is the central Hub of our DISH Services, but, (like the U-Verse ViP-2550 before it in our home), we only watch TV from one of the other 4 Wireless Joey STBs in the house.

There are three of us in our home; my parents, and myself. If I choose NOT to watch what they want to watch in the family room, I go up to my room and watch what I choose to watch.


TimeLord04


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> So you think there's ZERO innovations in Windows, on PCs, in Cell phones, on TVs. Living in a cave perhaps?
> 
> Off the top of my head, innovations on some of the products you mentioned over the last 10 years (2012 forward)
> 
> ...


Lol. I said pretty much the complete opposite of everything you said I said.

Btw, the first PC with a touchscreen was in 1983.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> Im with Nash on this one... and I think the unifying of the app is a precursor.. The box will act as a Genie Client or a Directv Stream box.. Your login to the device will dictate how the app behaves.. You have Sat, it connects to your Genie and acts like a client.. You have Stream is will act like the Osprey does now


If they unify the DTV Stream APP what about letting DTV customers use the DTV Stream APP as a client? They could still charge $7 a month for it. Then you could use the Apple TV 4k, Ruko TV, Fire Devices and Smart TV's as DTV clients. Even let the Smart TV remote that use the channel numbers change the channels on the DTV Stream APP. Do all this in addition to the DTV 4k Wireless Genie Mini.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> I'm far from convinced that there is a use case for 16 tuners but I could very much see where DIRECTV could benefit from going to 10 (since stacking of the big LIL broadcast channels on a single tuner as DISH does isn't possible given SWiM constraints).



What SWM constraints are those? There is nothing stopping Directv from doing this. A satellite tuner decodes the entire transponder, the receiver's firmware can pick one or many channels out of that bitstream. Directv's firmware hasn't been written to do that, that's all.

If Directv wanted to they could share transponders in the server when people are watching the same channel on multiple clients, or different channels on the same transponder. They must not think it is worth the possible confusion over customers not understand why sometimes they run into limits at watching/recording 7 different channels at once, sometimes 9, and sometimes 13.

Directv has clearly made the decision that the number of customers who have more than 7 TVs or want to record more than 7 things at the same time are too small to care about. That's why things they could do to address those people like transponder sharing, multiple Genies, or Genies with more than 7 tuners haven't happened.

It isn't people running into those limits who are leaving Directv, it is people who are unhappy about how much TV costs. They aren't fleeing to Dish or cable TV, they are losing tons of customers too.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> If they unify the DTV Stream APP what about letting DTV customers use the DTV Stream APP as a client? They could still charge $7 a month for it. Then you could use the Apple TV 4k, Ruko TV, Fire Devices and Smart TV's as DTV clients. Even let the Smart TV remote that use the channel numbers change the channels on the DTV Stream APP. Do all this in addition to the DTV 4k Wireless Genie Mini.


Anything is possible. The only smart tv the app supports is Samsung and it is garbage The TV’s can’t handle it


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> Im with Nash on this one... and I think the unifying of the app is a precursor.. The box will act as a Genie Client or a Directv Stream box.. Your login to the device will dictate how the app behaves.. You have Sat, it connects to your Genie and acts like a client.. You have Stream is will act like the Osprey does now


So, you don't think it will be a hybrid C71KW or A21KW? It will be an all-new DTV 4k Wireless Genie Mini that has the Android TV Operator's Tier on it? The GUI would be just like the DTV Stream one. Then when the last satellite runs out of fuel DTV customers would be used to DTV Stream and can just switch over and still use the DTV 4k Wireless Genie Mini? Or update to a new DTV Stream box? It would still be 6-12 months out?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> So, you don't think it will be a hybrid C71KW or A21KW? It will be an all-new DTV 4k Wireless Genie Mini that has the Android TV Operator's Tier on it? The GUI would be just like the DTV Stream one. Then when the last satellite runs out of fuel DTV customers would be used to DTV Stream and can just switch over and still use the DTV 4k Wireless Genie Mini? Or update to a new DTV Stream box? It would still be 6-12 months out?


Who knows. We will find out when we find out. Could be tomorrow could be 2 years from now


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Yup. I'll be mildly surprised if the forthcoming new client receiver is even exclusive to the satellite side as opposed to being a dual-purpose box that can work standalone for DTV Stream and in conjunction with an HR54 or HS17 for satellite.


The "fallback to streaming" option is a decent innovation that could simply become the normal way of receiving channels if one disconnected the satellite forever. A new satellite client that could stream from an HR54, HS17 or the Internet is not a stretch of the imagination.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

compnurd said:


> Who knows. We will find out when we find out. Could be tomorrow could be 2 years from now


or never, if DTV will go belly up soon


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Lol. I said pretty much the complete opposite of everything you said I said.
> 
> Btw, the first PC with a touchscreen was in 1983.


But that wasn't exactly mainstream and not implemented in the same way it was with Windows eight. The first tablets were around that time too, so the iPad wasn't an innovation? The MP3 player preceded the iPod by probably 10 years, so the iPod wasn't innovated. Heck the GUI showed up on computers way before Apple introduced the Mac, so again, the Mac wasn't innovative? Seems you have a VERY narrow definition of what is innovative or not.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> But that wasn't exactly mainstream and not implemented in the same way it was with Windows eight. The first tablets were around that time too, so the iPad wasn't an innovation? The MP3 player preceded the iPod by probably 10 years, so the iPod wasn't innovated. Heck the GUI showed up on computers way before Apple introduced the Mac, so again, the Mac wasn't innovative? Seems you have a VERY narrow definition of what is innovative or not.


No, the guy that invented English does. Clearly, you still don't understand what the word means.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> No, the guy that invented English does. Clearly, you still don't understand what the word means.


From your actual post:
*



Definition of innovation

Click to expand...

*


> 1*: *a new idea, *method, or device*


So while, for example touchscreen or MP3 players is not a NEW idea, the iPod, iPad and touchscreen PCs are ALL new methods AND new devices. So it meets the criteria. Don't you agree? If not, well then maybe you should actually READ the definition you, yourself posted. 

This discussion has gotten silly and I'm sure most folks here are sick of it by now, so with this post, I'll drop it.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> the iPod, iPad and touchscreen PCs are ALL new methods AND new devices. So it meets the criteria. Don't you agree?


No. They all just ripped off other peoples ideas and iterated / improved on them. First MP3 player was some random Asian dude. First tablet was Microsoft. A digital music player and a tablet in general were innovations. The iPod and iPad may have done it better and may have had some innovative *features*. And technically Microsoft didn't invent the tablet either, they just built one. It was really thought up by Star Trek writers in the 60s. Maybe The Jetsons had some sort of tablet?

Not sure what your obsession with touchscreen PCs is lol. Who has a touchscreen PC?

Photoshop had your magic eraser 30 yrs ago. Putting it on a phone isn't an innovation.

If your magic eraser could delete this conversation, that would be an innovation.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> No. They all just ripped off other peoples ideas and iterated / improved on them. First MP3 player was some random Asian dude. First tablet was Microsoft. A digital music player and a tablet in general were innovations. The iPod and iPad may have done it better and may have had some innovative *features*. And technically Microsoft didn't invent the tablet either, they just built one. It was really thought up by Star Trek writers in the 60s. Maybe The Jetsons had some sort of tablet?
> 
> Not sure what your obsession with touchscreen PCs is lol. Who has a touchscreen PC?
> 
> ...


I have a touch screen PC, and there are millions sold. The Surface has sold literally millions of units. Maybe eventually you'll actually type something that's true, but I doubt it. Again, look at YOUR definition of innovate. It's not just NEW ideas. Touchscreens were not a new IDEA, but the method and devices are new, hence meeting your OWN definition. You can't just make up what YOU feel are innovations. That's exactly what you are doing. Innovation DOES NOT EQUAL invent.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I have a touch screen PC, and there are millions sold. The Surface has sold literally millions of units. Maybe eventually you'll actually type something that's true, but I doubt it. Again, look at YOUR definition of innovate. It's not just NEW ideas. Touchscreens were not a new IDEA, but the method and devices are new, hence meeting your OWN definition. You can't just make up what YOU feel are innovations. That's exactly what you are doing. Innovation DOES NOT EQUAL invent.


Yawn. I can't spend all day explaining to you what words mean. Iteration is not innovation or invention. Innovation generally requires inventions. New products are not innovation or invention by default. You can have innovative features without the product itself being innovative. Ripping off other peoples ideas is not innovation or invention, it's ripping off other peoples ideas.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Innovation generally requires inventions.


Apple has an awful lot of patents (over 72,000 globally) for a company that you claim isn't innovating.

That said, Apple has made more of a mark by doing things differently (like those miserable early ATV remotes) as opposed to coming up with new hardware technologies. It is even worse today when we see Apple's competitors eating its technical advancement lunch both before and soon after their ho-hum events.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Use a narrow minded definition and nothing has been innovative since fire ... and maybe not even fire.
The "guy who invented English" wasn't Merriam or Webster.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

James Long said:


> Use a narrow minded definition and nothing has been innovative since fire ... and maybe not even fire.
> The "guy who invented English" wasn't Merriam or Webster.


Fire itself wasn't an invention or innovation since the "sandal wearing dude who lives in the clouds" invented that.

Man's control of fire was an innovation.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

I never said Apple _never_ innovated. I said, they haven't innovated _recently_, since Steve Jobs did the majority of the innovating. Steve Jobs daughter recently made the same comment that her iPhone is pretty much the same as it was years ago. I wouldn't waste my money going from an iPhone 11 -> iPhone 14 because its just minor, incremental improvements like a few extra pixels on the screen and a few incremental camera improvements. The dynamic island on the 14 Pro is cool looking... whether it turns out to be useful or annoying is TBD. I'm trying to determine if my company will pay for my phone upgrade. While its cool looking, I don't know that its $600 (of my money) cool looking. 4G -> 5G is definitely not $600 of innovations for me since I'm on some form of Wifi most of the time.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> I said, they haven't innovated _recently_, since Steve Jobs did the majority of the innovating.


You must be one of those that believes that Bill Gates wrote most of Microsoft's software from scratch.

Steve Jobs led a rather innovative team to be sure but to suggest that he designed everything is nonsense.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Yawn. I can't spend all day explaining to you what words mean. Iteration is not innovation or invention. Innovation generally requires inventions. New products are not innovation or invention by default. You can have innovative features without the product itself being innovative. Ripping off other peoples ideas is not innovation or invention, it's ripping off other peoples ideas.


No it doesn't by your own definition. So are you saying that Ford never innovated since Ford didn't invent the automobile? And any change in automobiles over the last 120 years is not innovation because none of them invented the automobile? See why your logic is flawed? It makes zero sense. You don't think there's nothing NEW in an iPod and EVERYTHING just ripped off other people's inventions?


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> I never said Apple _never_ innovated. I said, they haven't innovated _recently_, since Steve Jobs did the majority of the innovating. Steve Jobs daughter recently made the same comment that her iPhone is pretty much the same as it was years ago. I wouldn't waste my money going from an iPhone 11 -> iPhone 14 because its just minor, incremental improvements like a few extra pixels on the screen and a few incremental camera improvements. The dynamic island on the 14 Pro is cool looking... whether it turns out to be useful or annoying is TBD. I'm trying to determine if my company will pay for my phone upgrade. While its cool looking, I don't know that its $600 (of my money) cool looking. 4G -> 5G is definitely not $600 of innovations for me since I'm on some form of Wifi most of the time.


Just because YOU don't think it's worth anything doesn't mean there's no innovation in the device. I totally agree that the modern smartphone (those of the last 3 or so years) has little wiz bang things in it that would make me run out and buy one, but that doesn't mean there's no innovation in any of those phones. Bigger, and better lenses, better and more advanced screens, the dynamic island, like you said is a new feature and innovative. Do those particular innovations make you want to buy the device? Obviously not you, but to say there's no innovation is just wrong. It's arguable who invented the automobile but the number of innovations since it was invented is so large, as to be impossible to list accurately. But since none of these companies actually INVENTED the automobile, there's absolutely never been any innovation.

Stop it, this is your opinion, but it doesn't jive with the actual definition of innovation that you posted.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> You must be one of those that believes that Bill Gates wrote most of Microsoft's software from scratch.
> 
> Steve Jobs led a rather innovative team to be sure but to suggest that he designed everything is nonsense.


Gates and Jobs were idea guys. They both had teams that did all of the innovation for them. Jobs said, I want a GUI like I saw at Xerox, and his team made it for him.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Gates and Jobs were idea guys.


I'll buy that but I'd have to say that Jobs was more product oriented while Gates was more interested in market domination rather than innovation.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> You must be one of those that believes that Bill Gates wrote most of Microsoft's software from scratch.
> 
> Steve Jobs led a rather innovative team to be sure but to suggest that he designed everything is nonsense.


It's well documented that Gates bought the code for DOS for $50k, made a few minor changes and licensed it.

It's also well documented that Apple innovated when Steve Jobs was there and didn't when he wasn't. You make it sound like I'm saying he sat in Autocad and manually designed everything himself. He definitely stood over the peoples shoulders and nitpicked every minor thing.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> It's well documented that Gates bought the code for DOS for $50k, made a few minor changes and licensed it.
> 
> It's also well documented that Apple innovated when Steve Jobs was there and didn't when he wasn't.


You've done a great job of supporting my rebuttal but I'm wondering how that supports your thesis.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> I'll buy that but I'd have to say that Jobs was more product oriented while Gates was more interested in market domination rather than innovation.


There's definitely some truth to that, but I also think they both had different ideas where to take their companies and different ideas on what compromised their ideals. Jobs was an innovator who want Apple to appeal to a certain segment of people who liked style and elegance and ease of use (at least up until the iPod took off), and didn't care about the market share as much, he was more about, if I make the Mac easy to use we'll get enough people who will pay a premium to use it. Gates on the other hand wanted to control the OS and not get into the hardware business, so he allowed third parties to innovate on that front, and he realized that controlling the OS, the heart of any computer was going to be the most lucrative part of the business. That's what he wanted to control. Eventually he branched out into networking and office products, while still keeping control of the OS and not caring as much about hardware. When Gates left, that's when the decision was made to get into the hardware business. I'm not sure if Gates cared about domination at the onset, but clearly did when Microsoft became a mature company.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> You've done a great job of supporting my rebuttal but I'm wondering how that supports your thesis.


Yeah, I thought Jobs stole everything and just rebadged the iPod from (in his words) some generic Asian guy. No innovation there, huh?


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

SledgeHammer said:


> So DirecTV might see this as a way to transition people to the streaming side, but doesn't make sense to do that 10 years ahead of time when the tech will be more advanced in 5 - 7 yrs.


DTV may or may not be actively trying to transition current sat customers over to Stream. (I've read at least some sat customers saying they've been aggressively pitched to switch to Stream.) But even if they're not actively encouraging it, DTV knows that tons of their sat customers who have broadband are ditching satellite for something else anyway. This has been going on for years now. So _if_ a customer is going to leave DTV sat, of course they'd prefer it to be for DTV Stream. And having a sat customer _already_ using a box and remote that can work with DTV Stream would make that transition that much more convenient and therefore likely. (If my parents could've kept their old DISH channel package with the on-screen UI, channel numbers and remote control they knew, but cut their bill significantly by switching from satellite to streaming delivery of the service, they'd probably have done it. That wasn't an option, so they switched to YouTube TV.)

While it's true that DTV Stream has a lower profit margin than the satellite service does (for a longtime customer whose installation and hardware costs are already covered), they'd rather you convert immediately from sat to Stream and stick around another few years than leave sat in a few months for YouTube TV, Hulu Live, or just Netflix + OTA and never look back.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Yeah, I thought Jobs stole everything and just rebadged the iPod from (in his words) some generic Asian guy. No innovation there, huh?


Is design that leads primarily to a new approach necessarily innovation?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> It's arguable who invented the automobile but the number of innovations since it was invented is so large, as to be impossible to list accurately. But since none of these companies actually INVENTED the automobile, there's absolutely never been any innovation.


No Steve. It means that you still don't understand what basic English words mean. According to US Patents the automobile was invented by Carl Benz in 1886. Was he really the inventor? Well, he was the first one in the patent office at least.

And comparing the assembly line to magic eraser is just absurd.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> No Steve. It means that you still don't understand what basic English words mean. According to US Patents the automobile was invented by Carl Benz in 1886. Was he really the inventor? Well, he was the first one in the patent office at least.
> 
> And comparing the assembly line to magic eraser is just absurd.


So tell me, since it's the definition you posted how any one of what I mentioned does not meet any of the conditions in the DEFINITION YOU POSTED. I'll post it again in case you forgot:

*innovation*
noun
in·no·va·tion | \ ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən \

*Definition of innovation*

1*: *a new *idea, method, or device* 

Where does it say that an innovation has to be an INVENTION. Where does it say that is has to be extremely different than anything previously. It just says a NEW idea, method or device. Magic Eraser never appeared on a phone app before (that I'm aware of, I could be wrong), until it appeared in the Pixel devices. A tablet such as the iPad, with the ease of use of an iPhone never appeared before. It's a different method, or device. There was never a music device that synced with a separate music purchasing interface before like the iPod and iTunes. And there was never a touchscreen computer that integrated with the OS in a way that the touchscreen PC did with W8. Again method or device. There were lots of innovation behind ALL of those that made it possible, and even if you want to argue that devices like that existed before, there were innovative designs that made them work in ways that made them user friendly and efficiently.

What you are stuck on is that innovation has to be a WIZ BANG gamechanger (it doesn't have to be) or completely new invention (it doesn't have to be). It could be something that just makes your life easier or better, even subtly. I'm not comparing the magic eraser to the assembly line, but those are both examples of innovative design. One changed our lives and one is a nice cool feature on an existing product. But they are both innovative in their own way. Lots of innovation on existing products. Just on autos for example, everything from turn signals, to cruise control. Antilock breaks to automatic breaking. But none of the people who invented those invented the automobile.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Yeah, I thought Jobs stole everything and just rebadged the iPod from (in his words) some generic Asian guy. No innovation there, huh?


Nope. Wrong again Steve. I said the digital music player was an innovation. Did I say Steve Jobs innovated on the iPod? Nope. He improved / iterated on it. Lies and more lies from you. I said he innovated in general. The iPhone was innovative and I've noted it was. Was it the first smart phone? No. But it had many inventions and innovations with it. Better luck next time.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Where does it say that an innovation has to be an INVENTION.


For the 17th time, I said innovation generally INVOLVES an invention.



Steveknj said:


> Where does it say that is has to be extremely different than anything previously.


Sorry, that's what innovation means. Whine to the guy who invented English.



Steveknj said:


> Magic Eraser never appeared on a phone app before (that I'm aware of, I could be wrong), until it appeared in the Pixel devices.


That wouldn't fall under your new idea or new device or new method claim. I'm Steving Steve. It's a rehashed idea & method on an existing device.



Steveknj said:


> A tablet such as the iPad, with the ease of use of an iPhone never appeared before. It's a different method, or device.


No its not. A new device doesn't make something innovative. I invented a fork with 17 twines. Bam. Innovation. NOT. You invented a new way to tie your shoes. Bam. Innovation. Not.



Steveknj said:


> There was never a music device that synced with a separate music purchasing interface before like the iPod and iTunes.


That's an innovative *FEATURE.*



Steveknj said:


> there were innovative designs that made them work in ways that made them user friendly and efficiently.


No, they were improved designs. Making something thin isn't innovative. Is an OLED TV innovative? TVs weren't new. Flat panels weren't new. Smart TVs weren't new. The display technology and the process to make the panel were innovative.



Steveknj said:


> What you are stuck on is that innovation has to be a WIZ BANG gamechanger (it doesn't have to be) or completely new invention (it doesn't have to be).


For the 18th time. That's what the word means lol.



Steveknj said:


> It could be something that just makes your life easier or better, even subtly.


If its reducing the workflow by 3 clicks, then its not innovation. Subtly implies minor improvement.



Steveknj said:


> I'm not comparing the magic eraser to the assembly line, but those are both examples of innovative design.


Yes you are. Besides, I already said magic eraser was innovative when it was invented 30 yrs ago. I said adding it to a phone isn't innovative. It's a new feature. The feature itself is also not innovative.



Steveknj said:


> is a nice cool feature on an existing product.


FINALLY we're getting somewhere. A "nice cool feature on an existing product" isn't innovative by default. It can be, but the magic eraser wouldn't fall under that umberalla.



Steveknj said:


> But they are both innovative in their own way. Lots of innovation on existing products. Just on autos for example, everything from turn signals, to cruise control. Antilock breaks to automatic breaking. But none of the people who invented those invented the automobile.


I've already said you can have innovative features without the product being innovative as a whole.
You're missing that cute little word at the beginning with 3 letters.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Nope. Wrong again Steve. I said the digital music player was an innovation. Did I say Steve Jobs innovated on the iPod? Nope. He improved / iterated on it. Lies and more lies from you. I said he innovated in general. The iPhone was innovative and I've noted it was. Was it the first smart phone? No. But it had many inventions and innovations with it. Better luck next time.


You really think the iPod was the same as any other MP3 player on the planet? Sorry wrong again. Why did those other MP3 players fail and the iPod succeeded? Simple because of the many innovations on the iPod, from the scroll wheel which made it EASY to navigate, to it's integration with iTunes which allowed for easy purchase of music (not to mention the invention (yes, the invention) of the Podcast which didn't exist before the iPod. Believe me, I owned an earlier MP3 player AND an iPod. There was no comparison in ease of use (though I will say, my old RIO MP3 player sounded better than the first iPod I had. Again, invention of MP3 player, nope, massive innovation on the MP3 player, DEFINITELY.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> You really think the iPod was the same as any other MP3 player on the planet? Sorry wrong again. Why did those other MP3 players fail and the iPod succeeded? Simple because of the many innovations on the iPod, from the scroll wheel which made it EASY to navigate, to it's integration with iTunes which allowed for easy purchase of music (not to mention the invention (yes, the invention) of the Podcast which didn't exist before the iPod. Believe me, I owned an earlier MP3 player AND an iPod. There was no comparison in ease of use (though I will say, my old RIO MP3 player sounded better than the first iPod I had. Again, invention of MP3 player, nope, massive innovation on the MP3 player, DEFINITELY.


Wrong again on multiple grounds.

Podcasts were around in the 80s. Initially called Audio Blogging and if you want to nitpick before that just radio lol. And Whatever you want to call them, you'd say they were created. Not invented. Were the Simpons invented? No, they were created. Thus they call youtubers content creators and not content inventors.

iPod was the best selling in the US. Rest of the world, not so much. The scroll wheel was an innovative *feature*.

Now you're arguing that sales numbers makes something innovative? lol... _face palm_. Your worst argument yet.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> No. They all just ripped off other peoples ideas and iterated / improved on them. First MP3 player was some random Asian dude. First tablet was Microsoft. A digital music player and a tablet in general were innovations. The iPod and iPad may have done it better and may have had some innovative *features*. And technically Microsoft didn't invent the tablet either, they just built one. It was really thought up by Star Trek writers in the 60s. Maybe The Jetsons had some sort of tablet?
> 
> Not sure what your obsession with touchscreen PCs is lol. Who has a touchscreen PC?
> 
> ...



You're just choosing arbitrary points where you think a "thing" was invented. Where does the Apple Newton figure into your reality? That was the first PDA, and the PDA evolved into the smartphone, so I guess Apple invented the smartphone in the form of the Newton? (just lacking the "phone" part, and camera, and touchscreen and pretty much everything we associate with a smartphone today) Heck, maybe that's the first tablet too, just a smaller version?

Going back even further to who "thought" of something is even more ridiculous. If 10,000 years from now someone figures out a warp drive, does Gene Roddenberry (or some sci fi author who undoubtedly wrote a book with the concept before Star Trek) get the credit for "inventing" it?

There's a big difference in coming up with an "idea", being the first to market something that has limited or no success, and being the first to market something that succeeds and redefines the expectations of consumers of that product category in the future.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> For the 17th time, I said innovation generally INVOLVES an invention.


Generally, perhaps. Always no.




> Sorry, that's what innovation means. Whine to the guy who invented English.


Again, that's YOUR definition of innovation, not the definition you posted here. When you show me the definition where innovation=invention, I'll shut up.





> No its not. A new device doesn't make something innovative. I invented a fork with 17 twines. Bam. Innovation. NOT. You invented a new way to tie your shoes. Bam. Innovation. Not.


But if I invented a fork that created a new way of using a fork, that's an innovation. The iPod for example created a new way of bringing in music through iTunes. Innovation. And it required a new device, to do it that featured some of the same things previous MP3 players had and lots that was different too/





> That's an innovative *FEATURE.*




You said it yourself, it's an innovation. The feature itself was innovative, thus an innovative idea, thus, it falls under your own definition. The one that came from the dictionary, the one you quoted in this thread.





> No, they were improved designs. Making something thin isn't innovative. Is an OLED TV innovative? TVs weren't new. Flat panels weren't new. Smart TVs weren't new. The display technology and the process to make the panel were innovative.


Who said improved designs can't be innovative? OLED TVs were a new design that was innovative to TVs. The TV itself wasn't innovative, but the design was. Thus you have an innovative design of a TV. But you have repeatedly said unless something was invetented it cannot be innovative. TVs had been invented around 100 years ago, So therefore, nothing new on a TV could EVER be innovative. By your own logic.




> For the 18th time. That's what the word means lol.


For the 18th time that's not what YOUR QUOTED definition says. It's what YOUR personal definition says. But not the definition you quoted here from the dictionary. Here's some other definitions
From Wikipedia: *Innovation* is the practical implementation of ideas that result in the introduction of new goods or services or* improvement in offering goods or services*.[1] ISO TC 279 in the standard ISO 56000:2020 [2] defines innovation as "a new or *changed entity* realizing or redistributing value". Others have different definitions; a common element in the definitions is a focus on *newness, improvement, and spread of ideas or technologies. *

Dictionary.com - the act of innovating; introduction of new things *or methods.*

Again, the iPod and some of the other things I discussed are not necessarily new things, but certainly the methods behind them are now (and I'm sure you'll completely disagree, but whatever, this is becoming boring).





> If its reducing the workflow by 3 clicks, then its not innovation. Subtly implies minor improvement.


Out of context perhaps. In context, it depends. A wired remote works the same as a wireless remote, but the innovation was no wire. Same with WiFi. That's not an innovation?





> Yes you are. Besides, I already said magic eraser was innovative when it was invented 30 yrs ago. I said adding it to a phone isn't innovative. It's a new feature. The feature itself is also not innovative.


Who says it's not innovative. Well YOU did. I bet the people at Google think it's an innovative feature. The ability to remove people from your photo ON YOUR PHONE. That seams innovative to me. The tech has been there, porting it to your phone is the innovation. But of course, you don't use it or care about it, so it doesn't count. Plenty of new features require innovation.





> FINALLY we're getting somewhere. A "nice cool feature on an existing product" isn't innovative by default. It can be, but the magic eraser wouldn't fall under that umberalla.


Editing a person out of a picture ON YOUR phone seems kinda innovative to me. 





> I've already said you can have innovative features without the product being innovative as a whole.
> You're missing that cute little word at the beginning with 3 letters.


If a feature is innovative, by definition, it's an innovation (now we are getting into silly semantics
From Dictionary.com -Innovative: tending to innovate, or introduce something new or different; *characterized by innovation. *









Definition of innovative | Dictionary.com


Innovative definition, tending to innovate, or introduce something new or different; characterized by innovation. See more.




www.dictionary.com


----------



## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SledgeHammer said:


> Wrong again on multiple grounds.
> 
> Podcasts were around in the 80s. Initially called Audio Blogging and if you want to nitpick before that just radio lol. And Whatever you want to call them, you'd say they were created. Not invented. Were the Simpons invented? No, they were created. Thus they call youtubers content creators and not content inventors.
> 
> ...


You keep saying INNOVATIVE feature. By definition (this time the one I POSTED) that's innovation.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> You keep saying INNOVATIVE feature. By definition (this time the one I POSTED) that's innovation.


I've told you like 20 times by now that you can have innovative features without the product itself being innovative.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

In iOS 16, Visual Look Up lets you lift an object out of a photo or PDF by doing nothing more than tapping and holding. Seems innovative to me. Maybe not to others but to me it is.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Again, that's YOUR definition of innovation, not the definition you posted here. When you show me the definition where innovation=invention, I'll shut up.


I've already told you 37 times that its not. I said an innovation involves an invention.



Steveknj said:


> The iPod for example created a new way of bringing in music through iTunes. Innovation. And it required a new device, to do it that featured some of the same things previous MP3 players had and lots that was different too/


You Steve'd yourself this time. The iPod didn't create a new way of listening to music. It did create a new, integrated way of buying music which was an innovative feature. Certainly didn't require a new device as its just software.



Steveknj said:


> Who said improved designs can't be innovative? OLED TVs were a new design that was innovative to TVs. The TV itself wasn't innovative, but the design was. Thus you have an innovative design of a TV. But you have repeatedly said unless something was invetented it cannot be innovative. TVs had been invented around 100 years ago, So therefore, nothing new on a TV could EVER be innovative. By your own logic.


Didn't I JUST tell you that an OLED display and the process to make it was innovative?  while nothing else about the TV was?


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> In iOS 16, Visual Look Up lets you lift an object out of a photo or PDF by doing nothing more than tapping and holding. Seems innovative to me. Maybe not to others but to me it is.


Changing the clock font on the home screen to some super thick one and then requiring 10+ steps to fix it certainly wasn't innovative. Taking an hour to update my phone wasn't innovative either lol.

Google Lens is innovative. I was on a website and saw a cool stylized pic/poster of an "H" (as in hydrogen) and wanted to see if that was a real thing or the set designer just custom made it. You'd think telling Google Lens to search for pics of an "H" would not work... indeed it found the EXACT stylized pic I was looking for.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> Changing the clock font on the home screen to some super thick one and then requiring 10+ steps to fix it certainly wasn't innovative. Taking an hour to update my phone wasn't innovative either lol.


If it is taking yo9 10 steps to change it you are doing it wrong.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> If it is taking yo9 10 steps to change it you are doing it wrong.


Lol. Aren't you supposed to unlock, then drag the notification view down then long click to get to the customization view? That's great if you already have a customized wall paper, but if not you need to create one, etc.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Well you did say to fix it after you had changed it. So that was 3 steps.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Another thread that gets derailed from its original topic.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> Fire itself wasn't an invention or innovation since the "sandal wearing dude who lives in the clouds" invented that.


And even He got the idea from His Dad. 



SledgeHammer said:


> Man's control of fire was an innovation.


You are following too strict of a definition. If there has been no innovation since Adam then the guy who created English probably shouldn't have created that word.

That being said, can we move on from interpreting the dictionary?


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

to THE TOPIC ?!


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Well it would be nice if there was some new info on THE TOPIC. I did see a post at another forum of someone else that got the same survey.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Well it would be nice if there was some new info on THE TOPIC. I did see a post at another forum of someone else that got the same survey.


I would be shocked if we saw something by year end


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> Well it would be nice if there was some new info on THE TOPIC.


Given the source of what we do know, I wouldn't expect to hear anything solid until either the FCC equipment authorization documents come out from under hidden status or DIRECTV spills the beans.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> Given the source of what we do know, I wouldn't expect to hear anything solid until either the FCC equipment authorization documents come out from under hidden status or DIRECTV spills the beans.


Is there any reason to believe, based on info in the customer survey or otherwise, that the forthcoming device is anything other than the A21 which passed through the FCC in June of last year?



https://www.androidtv-guide.com/pay-tv-provider/att-tv-2/



FWIW, the A21 has specs nearly identical to that of the new Hopper Plus and Joey 4 boxes (which also run Android TV Operator Tier) that DISH just began distributing to customers widely this month. Both have a 2.6 GHz quad-core Broadcom processor (A21 has the 72180 model while the DISH boxes have the 72160) and both have 4 GB RAM and 16 GB flash memory for storage.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Is there any reason to believe, based on info in the customer survey or otherwise, that the forthcoming device is anything other than the A21 which passed through the FCC in June of last year?


The A21KW bears a striking resemblance to the C71KW and the carries the AT&T designation so I'm guessing not. I've still not closed my mind to the idea that the new product may feature a MoCA connection to make it truly drop-in compatible.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Logos can be changed without alerting the FCC. MoCA would be a big jump from a design without a coax connector.

The survey comes at a point in the process where marketing is trying to decide what would be the best way to sell the upgrade to the customer. Marketing surveys are something that should be done close to release not before the device has been submitted to the FCC. So my thoughts are on the A21KW or a firmware upgrade to an existing device. Not new mystery hardware that no one has discovered.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

In the A21-KW manual it says only works with DTV Stream. They would have to like James says. In earlier posts it was suggested a software update could make the DTV Stream box work with DTV. Maybe that is what is taking so long for the A21-KW? AT&T changed its mind on it just being a DTV Stream box?


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> The A21KW bears a striking resemblance to the C71KW and the carries the AT&T designation so I'm guessing not. I've still not closed my mind to the idea that the new product may feature a MoCA connection to make it truly drop-in compatible.


I think the A21-KW looks more like the Apple TV 4k box than the C71-KW,


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

James Long said:


> So my thoughts are on the A21KW or a firmware upgrade to an existing device. Not new mystery hardware that no one has discovered.


Would they do that just for the A21-KW? Or would they also do that for the C71-KW?


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The "stream backup to satellite" feature will help in several years when there are no satellites. Streaming from an HR54 or HS17 that has satellite signal receivers is viable on the published specs.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> In the A21-KW manual it says only works with DTV Stream. They would have to like James says. In earlier posts it was suggested a software update could make the DTV Stream box work with DTV. Maybe that is what is taking so long for the A21-KW? AT&T changed its mind on it just being a DTV Stream box?


The Original Osprey Manual said it was to work with a HS27 and that obviously changed.. They dont need to update the manual


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

CraigerM said:


> In earlier posts it was suggested a software update could make the DTV Stream box work with DTV. Maybe that is what is taking so long for the A21-KW? AT&T changed its mind on it just being a DTV Stream box?


Yes, that's my guess. Rather than release it first for DTV Stream and then later for DTV, they held it back until they got the updated sat-specific software/firmware done so that it could be released for both services at the same time.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> The A21KW bears a striking resemblance to the C71KW and the carries the AT&T designation so I'm guessing not.


The C71 sports a quad-core 1.6 GHz proc and (I think) only 2 GB RAM, while the A21 has a quad-core 2.6 GHz with 4 GB RAM. Plus it's a jump from WiFi 5 to 6 and Android TV 10 to 11. Users have long complained that the C71 is a bit sluggish, at least in terms of launching and running Android TV apps. (They've apparently tweaked the core DTV Stream software to run well on it.) The Android TV experience should be significantly better on the A21. Early reviews of the similarly spec'ed new DISH Android TV boxes say that they're generally fast and fluid (although some folks are saying that satellite video jump back/forward and channel changes pulled from a connected Hopper DVR server are slower than when done on the Hopper itself).


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> The C71 sports a quad-core 1.6 GHz proc and (I think) only 2 GB RAM, while the A21 has a quad-core 2.6 GHz with 4 GB RAM. Plus it's a jump from WiFi 5 to 6 and Android TV 10 to 11. Users have long complained that the C71 is a bit sluggish, at least in terms of launching and running Android TV apps. (They've apparently tweaked the core DTV Stream software to run well on it.) The Android TV experience should be significantly better on the A21. Early reviews of the similarly spec'ed new DISH Android TV boxes say that they're generally fast and fluid (although some folks are saying that satellite video jump back/forward and channel changes pulled from a connected Hopper DVR server are slower than when done on the Hopper itself).


Newer C71's have 4GB of ram The software never uses above like 1.75. Its clear its written to not take advantage of that ram


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

compnurd said:


> Newer C71's have 4GB of ram The software never uses above like 1.75. Its clear its written to not take advantage of that ram


Thanks. The Android TV Guide website denoted the C71's RAM as "2 GB/4 GB" and I figured it was a situation like what you described. Too bad half the RAM is wasted for those folks who have the units with 4 GB.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> Yes, that's my guess. Rather than release it first for DTV Stream and then later for DTV, they held it back until they got the updated sat-specific software/firmware done so that it could be released for both services at the same time.


I guess it's a complicated process doing the sat-specific software/firmware update for the A21-KW because they couldn't do one for the C71-KW right now? Plus, there is the chip shortage problem getting the A21-KW out. I wonder if a person decides to go to DTV Stream the sat-specific software would go away?


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> I guess it's a complicated process doing the sat-specific software/firmware update for the A21-KW because they couldn't do one for the C71-KW right now? Plus, there is the chip shortage problem getting the A21-KW out. I wonder if a person decides to go to DTV Stream the sat-specific software would go away?


I dont see any reason it cant work with both boxes Performance would just vary


----------



## 1DAVE1 (Oct 22, 2007)

I've been a DTV sat customer for 27 years, they keep moving channels I normally watch into higher tier packages. I called customer retention, it would be an additional $60 to get those channels back and they really could care less. But they did say I could get all those channels back for Less than I'm paying now with DirecTV stream. So other than us rural customers they see the writing on the wall


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Another reason they may have been holding off on introducing the A21 is to sell through their inventory of new C71 units. Perhaps we'll see them initially sell only new A21 units to both DTV Stream and sat customers while Stream customers will still have the option of buying cheaper refurbished C71s.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

1DAVE1 said:


> I've been a DTV sat customer for 27 years, they keep moving channels I normally watch into higher tier packages. I called customer retention, it would be an additional $60 to get those channels back and they really could care less. But they did say I could get all those channels back for Less than I'm paying now with DirecTV stream. So other than us rural customers they see the writing on the wall


Yeah, I don't think DTV is _proactively_ trying to migrate their sat customers over to Stream but they're definitely doing it on a reactive basis, especially when the customer complains about pricing. 

I wonder how much longer they're going to keep those live 4K sports as the main differentiating feature between the two? (Yes, I know the sat service has NFLST and NFL Network while Stream lacks both but that probably won't be the case next season.)


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

NashGuy said:


> Another reason they may have been holding off on introducing the A21 is to sell through their inventory of new C71 units. Perhaps we'll see them initially sell only new A21 units to both DTV Stream and sat customers while Stream customers will still have the option of buying cheaper refurbished C71s.


The way the survey was presented it appears it will be a free upgrade to sat customers.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> The way the survey was presented it appears it will be a free upgrade to sat customers.


I guess if you are on DTV, it would still be $7 a month and automatically extend your contract another two years?

I wonder if DTV will send an email saying the new box is available and you can order one right now? Or it will be on DTV.com? Hopefully they would have a lot of them. Or it would say supplies limited?

I doubt if you call to get one the CSRs wouldn't know what it was and would send out a C61k? LOL.


----------



## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

CraigerM said:


> I guess if you are on DTV, it would still be $7 a month and automatically extend your contract another two years?
> 
> I wonder if DTV will send an email saying the new box is available and you can order one right now? Or it will be on DTV.com? Hopefully they would have a lot of them. Or it would say supplies limited?
> 
> I doubt if you call to get one the CSRs wouldn't know what it was and would send out a C61k? LOL.


My guess is they will do it like they always have. When your time is up for an upgrade, they will offer you the new box (with the requisite 2 year contract commitment), Perhaps with new management that would change, but we've been through a few different owners and it's always been the same.


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

compnurd said:


> Newer C71's have 4GB of ram The software never uses above like 1.75. Its clear its written to not take advantage of that ram


That's probably because they couldn't get small DRAMs anymore. Something like that would like using 4 x16 chips to create a 64 bit wide DRAM channel, and if your supplier stops offering 4Gbit DRAMs then you either swap in 8Gbit DRAMs and leave everything else the same or you have to change your memory controller to accept 2 x32 DRAMs (which exist but have less availability)


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Another reason they may have been holding off on introducing the A21 is to sell through their inventory of new C71 units.


If they were worried about protecting their investment, why are they offering refurbished units at 50% off?


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> That's probably because they couldn't get small DRAMs anymore. Something like that would like using 4 x16 chips to create a 64 bit wide DRAM channel, and if your supplier stops offering 4Gbit DRAMs then you either swap in 8Gbit DRAMs and leave everything else the same or you have to change your memory controller to accept 2 x32 DRAMs (which exist but have less availability)


Oh I would bet money that is the reason


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

DTV wants to compete with Dish Network and have their own Android TV box because Dish is advertising their own Android TV now.

Dish Network TV Spot, 'All in One Place' - iSpot.tv


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

CraigerM said:


> advertising their own Android TV now


I can't see the box on the ad 
or they crammed all new HW into TV set ?


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

You can kind of see it here. 

Hopper Plus | DISH


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> You can kind of see it here.
> 
> Hopper Plus | DISH


Why would you do this? Smart TV and Roku already do it. Only reason to do it is maybe to simplify wiring and not have to change inputs. Doubt most people care about that.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Here is a close-up shots of the Hopper Plus and Joey 4.

Android TV Guide on Twitter: "Here are Hopper Plus (D25) and Joey 4 (D35) https://t.co/icyJllSSpf" / Twitter


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> DTV wants to compete with Dish Network and have their own Android TV box because Dish is advertising their own Android TV now.
> 
> Dish Network TV Spot, 'All in One Place' - iSpot.tv


DIRECTV gave up competing with Dish along time ago This is not related at all


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> If they were worried about protecting their investment, why are they offering refurbished units at 50% off?


They give customers a 14 day no-risk trial. If you buy a box when you order service but then cancel within 14 days, they refund all your money and you have to return the box. The boxes also come with a 1-yr warranty and I assume the way that works is you send in your messed up box and they ship you a new or refurbished one and then try to fix the one you sent them.

So my guess is that they had quite a few of those returned boxes piled up. What else are they gonna do with them other than resell them? I'll bet some of the ones being sold on eBay were originally coming from AT&T. And then at some point, DTV just decided to resell them directly via their website to new customers. Why cut eBay in for 15% or whatever they take?


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

SledgeHammer said:


> Why would you do this? Smart TV and Roku already do it. Only reason to do it is maybe to simplify wiring and not have to change inputs. Doubt most people care about that.


Oh, a lot of people do care about not having to switch inputs and remotes (especially once they've experienced having all their TV together in one box). MVDPs are very much concerned about owning "Input 1" on their customers' TVs and not having them switch away to other devices. Because that's a slippery slope to cutting the cord and cancelling their cable TV service completely. "Why are we still paying $90 a month for cable TV when we seem to spend almost all our time on the Roku?"


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> They give customers a 14 day no-risk trial. If you buy a box when you order service but then cancel within 14 days, they refund all your money and you have to return the box. The boxes also come with a 1-yr warranty and I assume the way that works is you send in your messed up box and they ship you a new or refurbished one and then try to fix the one you sent them.
> 
> So my guess is that they had quite a few of those returned boxes piled up. What else are they gonna do with them other than resell them? I'll bet some of the ones being sold on eBay were originally coming from AT&T. And then at some point, DTV just decided to resell them directly via their website to new customers. Why cut eBay in for 15% or whatever they take?


It’s 5 days now


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

The free trial is 5 days for the service. You have 14 days to send the box back.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

I wonder if you could use it as a separate streaming box if they decide to get rid of DTV Stream? Or if Dish Network merged with DTV which streaming service would they choose?

I also care about not having to switch inputs going from live TV to streaming.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> I wonder if you could use it as a separate streaming box if they decide to get rid of DTV Stream? Or if Dish Network merged with DTV which streaming service would they choose?


The new hardware? Yes ... I assume that it will work for any Android supported service if DIRECTV Stream ceases. Based on reported subscriber numbers DISH's Sling TV remains the more popular service but they are two different product offerings. Sling TV is two basic packages that can be bought separately or together plus a few premium add ons. DIRECTV Stream its a tiered system mimicking DIRECTV satellite. As long as people are willing to subscribe to one or the other and the carriage contracts can be renewed I don't see an urgent reason to shut either service down.



CraigerM said:


> I also care about not having to switch inputs going from live TV to streaming.


My HBO subscription via DISH includes HBO Max but I have watched very little HBO Max content other than the HBO OnDemand content viewable on the receiver. Being through one interface is handy.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Oh, a lot of people do care about not having to switch inputs and remotes (especially once they've experienced having all their TV together in one box). MVDPs are very much concerned about owning "Input 1" on their customers' TVs and not having them switch away to other devices. Because that's a slippery slope to cutting the cord and cancelling their cable TV service completely. "Why are we still paying $90 a month for cable TV when we seem to spend almost all our time on the Roku?"


I care about not having to switch inputs and having one remote (the rectangular DirecTV remote) that controls my TV, AVR & DVR with one button. But my dad uses 5 remotes and switches between like 3 different inputs. Don't ask me why lol. I've told him a few times he can do it all on one remote.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

CraigerM said:


> You can kind of see it here.
> 
> Hopper Plus | DISH


Duh ?
Getting "Error 1009 " with no page/picture


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> So my guess is that they had quite a few of those returned boxes piled up. What else are they gonna do with them other than resell them?


Sure, but why sell them at 50% off unless that's all they were worth in the first place?


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> Getting "Error 1009 " with no page/picture


The Fora platform processes the link through a service (go.skimresources.com) which may be causing your issues.

Perhaps a VPN would help.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> Sure, but why sell them at 50% off unless that's all they were worth in the first place?











Law of Supply and Demand in Economics: How It Works


The law of supply and demand explains how changes in a product's market price relate to its supply and demand.




www.investopedia.com


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

CraigerM said:


> I wonder if you could use it as a separate streaming box if they decide to get rid of DTV Stream?


It's been confirmed that the current C71 DTV Stream box can be used purely to run Android TV apps if the user cancels DTV Stream service. I imagine it will be the same scenario with any future model that replaces it, as long as it continues to be sold to and owned by the user. That said, the advice I recently gave a DTV Stream customer who's about to cancel (or recently did) is to just pay $20 for the Onn 4K Android TV box from Walmart. I think it's probably going to be snappier in terms of UI navigation and app launching. Plus it will give you a better home screen and a remote without lots of buttons that no longer function. It also comes with a free 6-mo trial of Peacock Premium, which offsets the modest cost.

As for the supposedly forthcoming device for DTV sat users, as well as the new Android TV devices from DISH, it sounds like those boxes will have to be returned when the user cancels service completely.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

The demand in this case might be for a competitively priced streaming box. Asking $100 for an Android TV box when you can get a Chromecast with Google TV for $50 is a big ask.

The TiVo Stream 4K even has digits on its remote (if only the app supported them) and it is selling for under $40.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Law of Supply and Demand in Economics: How It Works
> 
> 
> The law of supply and demand explains how changes in a product's market price relate to its supply and demand.
> ...


Not to mention they were never "worth" 100% in the first place in terms of cost to DirecTV. Making 10x-20x the cost of a box is indeed "a thing". So they've got plenty of headroom to still make a mint.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> So they've got plenty of headroom to still make a mint.


What's wrong with making more money on the refurbs? They could probably sell all of them they can turn around at $80.

It isn't as if we're talking about a product where mileage is a concern.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

-


harsh said:


> The demand in this case might be for a competitively priced streaming box. Asking $100 for an Android TV box when you can get a Chromecast with Google TV for $50 is a big ask.
> 
> The TiVo Stream 4K even has digits on its remote (if only the app supported them) and it is selling for under $40.


Too bad they don't have the DTV Stream for all Google TV devices. You could use the channel buttons with the DTV Stream APP if it was on the Tivo Stream 4k dongle. I wonder if that's because they really want you buying their devices?


----------



## Bender The Lab (7 mo ago)

CraigerM said:


> -
> 
> Too bad they don't have the DTV Stream for all Google TV devices. You could use the channel buttons with the DTV Stream APP if it was on the Tivo Stream 4k dongle. *I wonder if that's because they really want you buying their devices?*


I doubt it, it would not be on the Roku then.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> I wonder if that's because they really want you buying their devices?


What other reason could there be?

I reason that it would be painful in the long haul to depart from the standard Android way of doing things given that there's a ready solution.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

CraigerM said:


> Too bad they don't have the DTV Stream for all Google TV devices. You could use the channel buttons with the DTV Stream APP if it was on the Tivo Stream 4k dongle. I wonder if that's because they really want you buying their devices?


Yeah, that's the only reason why I can figure that DTV Stream doesn't put out an app for Android TV/Google TV. They want to protect their own device with its custom remote that costs significantly more than comparable Android TV devices sold at retail.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, that's the only reason why I can figure that DTV Stream doesn't put out an app for Android TV/Google TV.


DIRECTV may have learned their lesson with RVU and what it takes to support multiple TV platforms.


----------



## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> It's been confirmed that the current C71 DTV Stream box can be used purely to run Android TV apps if the user cancels DTV Stream service. I imagine it will be the same scenario with any future model that replaces it, as long as it continues to be sold to and owned by the user. That said, the advice I recently gave a DTV Stream customer who's about to cancel (or recently did) is to just pay $20 for the Onn 4K Android TV box from Walmart. I think it's probably going to be snappier in terms of UI navigation and app launching. Plus it will give you a better home screen and a remote without lots of buttons that no longer function. It also comes with a free 6-mo trial of Peacock Premium, which offsets the modest cost.
> 
> As for the supposedly forthcoming device for DTV sat users, as well as the new Android TV devices from DISH, it sounds like those boxes will have to be returned when the user cancels service completely.


Really the only reason to use something other than your smart TV or a box like the C71 for your streaming is features. For example, Netflix doesn't support Dolby Atmos on all streaming devices (at least the last I checked). Some streaming boxes have apps that other boxes don't have, that sort of thing. Of course there's always an interface you might like better. Some folks like ATV's interface, and how well it works in the Apple infrastructure. But to me, once all streaming boxes offer the same things, there's little reason to move off the box that's the most convenient to you. So if everything is driven through your DirecTV box, or if everything is driven through your SmartTV, most people will just not bother buying a Roku or ATV or Firestick, if the ease of use is there.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Really the only reason to use something other than your smart TV or a box like the C71 for your streaming is features. For example, Netflix doesn't support Dolby Atmos on all streaming devices (at least the last I checked). Some streaming boxes have apps that other boxes don't have, that sort of thing. Of course there's always an interface you might like better. Some folks like ATV's interface, and how well it works in the Apple infrastructure. But to me, once all streaming boxes offer the same things, there's little reason to move off the box that's the most convenient to you. So if everything is driven through your DirecTV box, or if everything is driven through your SmartTV, most people will just not bother buying a Roku or ATV or Firestick, if the ease of use is there.


The old expression "jack of all trades, master of none" applies here.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Steveknj said:


> So if everything is driven through your DirecTV box, or if everything is driven through your SmartTV, most people will just not bother buying a Roku or ATV or Firestick, if the ease of use is there.


This is why industry observers think the race for streaming platform dominance will come down to smart TVs, not separate boxes/dongles. But for that to really come to pass, I think we're going to have to see smart TVs that remain fully supported and well-performing for the life of the TV (e.g. ~7 yrs on average, I think). Otherwise, you'll still have folks abandon their smart TV apps and connect a better streaming box. That said, smart TVs are getting at least somewhat better. (Wonder if we'll ever see Apple license their tvOS to a smart TV OEM? Or, perhaps more likely, if we'll ever see them put out their own line of premium smart TVs with built-in Siri smart speaker and webcam for FaceTime calls?)

Also, I think about those households that would prefer having the same UI and remote on all the TVs they regularly use rather than having a different system on each one because they're different brands/years of smart TV.


----------



## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> DIRECTV may have learned their lesson with RVU and what it takes to support multiple TV platforms.


Nah. They're already having to support Android TV via their dedicated box. And actually, they could just take their existing Fire TV app and stick it on the Google Play store as an Android TV app. It can be sideloaded onto Android TV devices but reportedly keeps breaking every time DTV updates it. Any software dev that has an app for Fire TV but not Android TV, but not vice versa, is intentionally choosing not to support that platform, probably for business reasons, e.g. disagreement with Amazon or Google over fees.


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## astrohip (Mar 4, 2007)

NashGuy said:


> Also, I think about those households that would prefer having the same UI and remote on all the TVs they regularly use rather than having a different system on each one because they're different brands/years of smart TV.


That's exactly why I ended up putting a Roku on every TV that we stream on (six and counting). Too many interfaces, and even the one I kinda liked (Sony; might be an Android interface) changed so much after an update I put a Roku on it. My wife can't adapt to all these different UIs.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

astrohip said:


> That's exactly why I ended up putting a Roku on every TV that we stream on (six and counting). Too many interfaces, and even the one I kinda liked (Sony; might be an Android interface) changed so much after an update I put a Roku on it. My wife can't adapt to all these different UIs.


Anybody with an AVR wants to switch through the AVR. Smart TVs want you to switch through the TV and then use ARC into the AVR.

I keep my AVR on my DirecTV box tbh. I rarely use my 4K player. Switching through the AVR means going to get a 2nd remote. So it would be cool to have apps on the DirecTV so I could have TV + apps. Although I don't use streaming, so not a big deal for me. But could be a selling point for most people annoyed by switching.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

I actually don't like having set-top boxes and would like to have APPS. Except the DTV Stream box has channel numbers on the remote. Some TVS are starting to drop channel numbers from there remotes. Would the picture and sound be the same through an APP vs. the set-top box and the HDMI cable? Plus, there is the APP support on the Smart TV like NashGuy said.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> Would the picture and *sound *be the same through an APP vs. the set-top box and the HDMI cable?


If you go from your TV to AVR with toslink or ARC then no. If you go from your TV to AVR with eARC then yes.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

NashGuy said:


> This is why industry observers think the race for streaming platform dominance will come down to smart TVs, not separate boxes/dongles. But for that to really come to pass, I think we're going to have to see smart TVs that remain fully supported and well-performing for the life of the TV (e.g. ~7 yrs on average, I think). Otherwise, you'll still have folks abandon their smart TV apps and connect a better streaming box. That said, smart TVs are getting at least somewhat better. (Wonder if we'll ever see Apple license their tvOS to a smart TV OEM? Or, perhaps more likely, if we'll ever see them put out their own line of premium smart TVs with built-in Siri smart speaker and webcam for FaceTime calls?)
> 
> Also, I think about those households that would prefer having the same UI and remote on all the TVs they regularly use rather than having a different system on each one because they're different brands/years of smart TV.


The major shift here is that they are now licensing existing OS (ones that are on streaming devices) which are more likely to be updated and supported. There's now a plethora of Google OS TVs, and Roku TVs and Firestick TVs. And I think app makers are more likely to support those because it's probably fairly easy to port those over to smart TV variants. There are still a few TV makers who ware "holding out" and using their own smart TV OS. The odd thing is they are some of the major manufacturers, LG, Sony, Samsung and Vizio, who have proprietary OS. And I bet those are the most likely customers to buy external devices. But imagine of Apple for example hooked up with Samsung? That would be huge for Apple. Ease of use is going to be key. I just bought a TV with Google OS, and it's pretty easy to use really, and it has most of the apps I used and they seem to be getting updated regularly too.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Steveknj said:


> The odd thing is they are some of the major manufacturers, LG, *Sony*, Samsung and Vizio, who have proprietary OS.


Doesn't Sony use Android TV?


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Steveknj said:


> The major shift here is that they are now licensing existing OS (ones that are on streaming devices) which are more likely to be updated and supported. There's now a plethora of Google OS TVs, and Roku TVs and Firestick TVs. And I think app makers are more likely to support those because it's probably fairly easy to port those over to smart TV variants. There are still a few TV makers who ware "holding out" and using their own smart TV OS. The odd thing is they are some of the major manufacturers, LG, Sony, Samsung and Vizio, who have proprietary OS. And I bet those are the most likely customers to buy external devices. But imagine of Apple for example hooked up with Samsung? That would be huge for Apple. Ease of use is going to be key. I just bought a TV with Google OS, and it's pretty easy to use really, and it has most of the apps I used and they seem to be getting updated regularly too.


I have LG TV's and do not care at all about the apps on it. They all suck compared to the same app on the Apple TV.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

b4pjoe said:


> Doesn't Sony use Android TV?


They may, not sure. I thought it was propitiatory. I haven't owned a Sony TV since my last CRT.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

b4pjoe said:


> I have LG TV's and do not care at all about the apps on it. They all suck compared to the same app on the Apple TV.


Yep, and that's my point. These propitiatory systems are being orphaned by the app makers because they would rather concentrate on Roku/ATV/Google OS and Firestick which have a much larger market share. It's kind of like what happened to Windows phone OS (or whatever it was called). BTW, I kind of liked WebOS which is what LG uses, when I owned an LG TV, but like you said, there are better options, and many are cheap enough to supplement and/or replace. And it would be even better if one of the OS is integrated into your Sat or cable box. I have to say, my new TV with Google OS, is very snappy. If Netflix supported Dolby Atmos on that OS, I might think about jettisoning the various streamers I have connected to my system.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> Doesn't Sony use Android TV?


Yes, Sony uses Android TV / Google TV (same thing, really, just that Google TV has a slightly different home screen UI).


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

I think another sign they are doing that DTV/DTV Stream 4k Wireless Genie Mini is DTV has a commercial that looks like the DTV Stream one "Get your TV together." I wonder if DTV would want to have a commercial that says get your TV together with live TV and streaming all in one place?

DIRECTV | Get Your TV Together | The Wives' House :30 - YouTube


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> Nah. They're already having to support Android TV via their dedicated box.


There's obviously a different app running on the DIRECTV STREAM device (of which there is one and only one model). Running on a random Android/Google TV enabled television is a decidedly different situation.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> I think another sign they are doing that DTV/DTV Stream 4k Wireless Genie Mini is DTV has a commercial that looks like the DTV Stream one "Get your TV together." I wonder if DTV would want to have a commercial that says get your TV together with live TV and streaming all in one place?
> 
> DIRECTV | Get Your TV Together | The Wives' House :30 - YouTube


Meh... even if they are building this... nothing more then a Roku knock-off. I (and everybody else) would love a box where I get all the different services in a UNIFIED UI, but that would mean dropping all the brandings on the different services and having a generic UI which none of the providers would ever go for in a million years. The Roku has a unified search, but then you still need to go into the individual apps.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

SledgeHammer said:


> Meh... even if they are building this... nothing more then a Roku knock-off. I (and everybody else) would love a box where I get all the different services in a UNIFIED UI, but that would mean dropping all the brandings on the different services and having a generic UI which none of the providers would ever go for in a million years. The Roku has a unified search, but then you still need to go into the individual apps.


Why would they need to drop all the branding?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> Why would they need to drop all the branding?


That was for a hypothetical 100% "unified UI". You're thinking of a "unified UI" as something like Roku, I'm thinking of it as appearing as a "single app". You could do something like the DirecTV guide where they have the channel logos on the left, but if you switch between HBO and Disney, for example, and they have completely different behavior and look (as they do on a Roku), then that's not a 100% unified UI.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> I think another sign they are doing that DTV/DTV Stream 4k Wireless Genie Mini is DTV has a commercial that looks like the DTV Stream one "Get your TV together." I wonder if DTV would want to have a commercial that says get your TV together with live TV and streaming all in one place?
> 
> DIRECTV | Get Your TV Together | The Wives' House :30 - YouTube


Thats a Directv Stream commercial They have been running ones like that for over a year


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> Thats a Directv Stream commercial They have been running ones like that for over a year


This is a new DirecTV commercial not DirecTV Stream.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> This is a new DirecTV commercial not DirecTV Stream.


Its one Company.. Again they have been running commercials like that for over a year.. Its not a pre-cursor to anything


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

compnurd said:


> Its one Company.. Again they have been running commercials like that for over a year.. Its not a pre-cursor to anything


^^^ This. Read the survey again. It doesn't say any of that is coming. It says what would you WISH was coming. It took us 2 yrs of WISHING before they thought DLB was important enough to implement when the DirecTivos already had it.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harsh said:


> There's obviously a different app running on the DIRECTV STREAM device (of which there is one and only one model). Running on a random Android/Google TV enabled television is a decidedly different situation.


It's pretty much the same codebase. It's just that their app serves as the default home screen on their own device since it's running Android TV Operator Tier.

But, as I said, you can take the existing Fire TV app, just as it is, and sideload it onto an Android TV device and it will run. (Can't remember, you might have to also sideload install the Amazon Appstore for Android app too to give the DTV Stream app permission to launch on that device.) So DTV could literally just authorize their existing Fire TV app for Google Play/Android TV without doing anything to change it and it would work fine. They just don't want to do that.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

CraigerM said:


> This is a new DirecTV commercial not DirecTV Stream.


Hmm, interesting that they've appeared to take the ongoing DTV Stream ad campaign and are now just saying "DIRECTV." I guess they figure that it can work for either the sat or streaming product.

I also noticed that they recently redesigned the DTV website. Now appears that they're using the DIRECTV logo to equally represent both services. Both are showcased side-by-side on the home page and they now appear to have a specific "DIRECTV Satellite" branded logo in addition to the "DIRECTV Stream" logo that they've been using for the past year or so.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

SledgeHammer said:


> ^^^ This. Read the survey again. It doesn't say any of that is coming. It says what would you WISH was coming. It took us 2 yrs of WISHING before they thought DLB was important enough to implement when the DirecTivos already had it.


It says in the first screenshot. DTV has developed a new piece of hardware to replace your existing Genie Mini's


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> Hmm, interesting that they've appeared to take the ongoing DTV Stream ad campaign and are now just saying "DIRECTV." I guess they figure that it can work for either the sat or streaming product.
> 
> I also noticed that they recently redesigned the DTV website. Now appears that they're using the DIRECTV logo to equally represent both services. Both are showcased side-by-side on the home page and they now appear to have a specific "DIRECTV Satellite" branded logo in addition to the "DIRECTV Stream" logo that they've been using for the past year or so.
> 
> ...


Is this the start of DTV and DTV Stream having the same look and feel and that is why they have developed the new Genie Mini?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> It says in the first screenshot. DTV has developed a new piece of hardware to replace your existing Genie Mini's


Guess you didn't look at the 3rd.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

CraigerM said:


> Is this the start of DTV and DTV Stream having the same look and feel and that is why they have developed the new Genie Mini?


Could be, although I wouldn't read that much into it.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> I also noticed that they recently redesigned the DTV website.


The current DIRECTV website "template" debuted more than a year ago.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The first post TPG purchase version of the DIRECTV.COM website had streaming at the top and one had to scroll down to find satellite offerings. The current version is more balanced offering satellite and streaming side by side.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> Is this the start of DTV and DTV Stream having the same look and feel and that is why they have developed the new Genie Mini?


The Genie is never going to look like DIRECTV Stream. They tried that. It can’t handle it.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

SledgeHammer said:


> Guess you didn't look at the 3rd.


What in the 3rd part are you talking about?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> What in the 3rd part are you talking about?


It isn't a list of the stuff that's coming, it's asking you to pick the 2 most important ones for you.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Not sure why the 4k Wireless Genie Mini would be a choice when that is what they have developed already.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

You don't understand the survey. The first step (choosing a message) helps them pick a tag line when they advertise the upgrade (pick your favorite three and the marketing company will see the most popular tag line). The second step is to choose the two features that are most important to you. It is not limiting your upgrade to just those two features. It is a marketing survey designed to determine what their advertising should focus on.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> Not sure why the 4k Wireless Genie Mini would be a choice when that is what they have developed already.


There is no C61KW and that's the point.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> There is no C61KW and that's the point.


It won't be a C61KW. Some in this thread think it will be the A21-KW. This says they have developed a new client.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> It won't be a C61KW. Some in this thread think it will be the A21-KW. This says they have developed a new client.
> View attachment 32471


Oye vey


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> Oye vey


So, they haven't developed a DTV/DTV Stream hybrid Client?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> So, they haven't developed a DTV/DTV Stream hybrid Client?


NO ONE KNOWS FOR CERTAIN We will all find out at the same time

What is for certain is the email was a marketing survey


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

CraigerM said:


> It won't be a C61KW. Some in this thread think it will be the A21-KW. This says they have developed a new client.
> View attachment 32471


and what about the tv hooked to the main box? on the older genies? can they make 1 box free / not count as an added tv for users with the older box?


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

JoeTheDragon said:


> and what about the tv hooked to the main box? on the older genies? can they make 1 box free / not count as an added tv for users with the older box?


I would still think the first box the monthly fee would be free.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> It won't be a C61KW. Some in this thread think it will be the A21-KW. This says they have developed a new client.


Given how long it has taken to bring some of their products to market, you can never really tell. It took more than two and a half years just to release the C71KW after having been initially FCC approved in the Fall of 2017. "New" could easily mean un-released.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> Given how long it has taken to bring some of their products to market, you can never really tell. It took more than two and a half years just to release the C71KW after having been initially FCC approved in the Fall of 2017. "New" could easily mean un-released.


What about what some have said in this thread about just doing a software update to the C71KW and A21KW to make those work with the HS-17 and HR-54? That testing wouldn't take that long would it? That is what DTV could have meant saying they have developed a new hardware.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> What about what some have said in this thread about just doing a software update to the C71KW and A21KW to make those work with the HS-17 and HR-54? That testing wouldn't take that long would it?


It comes down to what level of "Genie Mini replacement" we're talking about. Thus far, there haven't been any clients that didn't use either MoCA or the WVB to connect and 4K isn't available in wireless form. Assuming that the Genie Mini protocol can be implemented entirely in software may not be reasonable. It seems likely that RVU is involved at some level.


> That is what DTV could have meant saying they have developed a new hardware.


This isn't DIRECTV talking here. This is a survey company, SKIM, setting the stage for a survey. We must not lose sight of this fact.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> It comes down to what level of "Genie Mini replacement" we're talking about. Thus far, there haven't been any clients that didn't use either MoCA or the WVB to connect and 4K isn't available in wireless form. Assuming that the Genie Mini protocol can be implemented entirely in software may not be reasonable. It seems likely that RVU is involved at some level.This isn't DIRECTV talking here. This is a survey company, SKIM, setting the stage for a survey. We must not lose sight of this fact.


DTV abandoned RVU.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> DTV abandoned RVU.


They abandoned RVU televisions but I suspect the Genie Minis still use at least vestiges of the RVU protocol.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

harsh said:


> vestiges of the RVU protocol


Duh?! "vestiges" ?


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> Duh?! "vestiges" ?


You'll find the word in most any English dictionary.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

CraigerM said:


> DTV abandoned RVU.


All Genie clients use RVU, not just TVs.





__





Existing Products | RVU Project







rvuproject.org


----------



## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

CraigerM said:


> I would still think the first box the monthly fee would be free.


and you need to count the old server as box 0 and the tv box as box 1


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

David Ortiz said:


> All Genie clients use RVU, not just TVs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry I should have said DTV abandoned RVU for Smart TV's.

So, they wouldn't be able to use the Android TV Operators Tier with RVU?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> So, they wouldn't be able to use the Android TV Operators Tier with RVU?


That would depend on whether or not they can implement all missing RVU features in software. RVU in televisions involved some hardware.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

compnurd said:


> The Genie is never going to look like DIRECTV Stream. They tried that. It can’t handle it.


If, as has been speculated, they come out with a dual-purpose client (e.g. the A21 that's already passed through the FCC) that can work with either DTV Stream or DTV by connecting to a Genie server, then yeah, it would have pretty much the same UI used either way. Just as DISH's latest Android TV-powered clients have a different UI than their earlier Hoppers and Joeys, an Android TV-powered client for DTV sat would probably have a different UI than the current Genies and Genie Minis.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Another thing I think they could do is let the DTV Stream APP on other streaming devices be a client and charge $7 a month for it. Also have the DTV Stream APP connect to the HS-17 and HR-54.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> Another thing I think they could do is let the DTV Stream APP on other streaming devices be a client and charge $7 a month for it. Also have the DTV Stream APP connect to the HS-17 and HR-54.


This is where using a STREAM device gets sticky. A DIRECTV DBS STB that didn't demand a TV fee sounds almost unthinkable.

Either that or DIRECTV sees where DISH might be stealing their lunch with a DISH Anywhere enabled FireTV device. Even I don't buy this one.


----------



## bt-rtp (Dec 30, 2005)

There is another use case for the topic of new hardware, how does the new device accomidate the needs of all of the sports bars filled with dozens of HDTVs ? NFLST and DTV generate significant revenues from these commercial customers.

Perhaps the NFL and DTV will have a special dervice offering for them when NFLST ends for DTV residential customers next year. This will buy some time for them to get migrated to the new devices.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

If DIRECTV has any part of NFL ST next year it will be a satellite offering to DIRECTV for Business customers (similar to their satellite offering of ESPN+ and Amazon's TNF). That will work on current equipment. If businesses need to change equipment they would change to the new carrier's equipment, not needing DIRECTV.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bt-rtp said:


> There is another use case for the topic of new hardware, how does the new device accomidate the needs of all of the sports bars filled with dozens of HDTVs ? NFLST and DTV generate significant revenues from these commercial customers.


As we've seen in retail stores, I think HDMI matrix switches are going to become the next big thing. It theoretically takes away the dependence on any proprietary distribution technologies.


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## krel (Mar 20, 2013)

b4pjoe said:


> I think it is kind of weird too that I got it and no one else here has said that they got the email. I got it at the email address I use for my DIRECTV account. Here is a screen grab of the email with my email address removed.
> 
> View attachment 32421
> 
> ...


 i hope they send me one i'll give em an earful


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Well it is multiple choice selections. They didn't ask for an essay.


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## krel (Mar 20, 2013)

P Smith said:


> or never, if DTV will go belly up soon


they just got slapped with a 17 million dollar lawsuit for robo calls, so no new hardware just another rate increase


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

krel said:


> they just got slapped with a 17 million dollar lawsuit for robo calls, so no new hardware just another rate increase


The class action lawsuit was filed in March of 2018 so characterizing it as "just got slapped with a lawsuit" is misleading. The new part is that it was settled for the $17 million dollar figure late last week.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

$17 million is CEO coffee break money.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

b4pjoe said:


> $17 million is CEO coffee break money.


The amount would be good enough to design new STB !!!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Less than $2 per subscriber. Moving on.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> The amount would be good enough to design new STB !!!


Designing a new STB is only a small part of bringing it to market.

Assuming that a new STB is necessary is probably not that well supported. Extrapolating the current residential approach to cover commercial venues is not particularly sound either.


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## GLJones (Feb 12, 2008)

west99999 said:


> works on all genies. I specifically asked.


Been working on mine for a while. No way I can see to select streaming. It is an option that pops-up when the signal is degraded. Sometimes offers Low-Res version (old NTSC signal) and sometimes streaming. Used it during the hurricane last week.


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## skinnyJM (Nov 19, 2005)

I apologize if this has been mentioned already, but saw this H26K-500 on DirecTV Firmware Watcher









I don't remember reading anything about it.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Good eye!

The software revision level is closest to the C41W-100.

The model number suggests a standalone 4K receiver.

Maybe a red herring to see if anyone is watching?


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

Yea definitely not a client, but I cannot find anything H26 on UL’s online database, unless it was a different third party listed device.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

skinnyJM said:


> I apologize if this has been mentioned already, but saw this H26K-500 on DirecTV Firmware Watcher
> View attachment 32565
> 
> 
> I don't remember reading anything about it.


I wonder if it is just a rebranding of the unreleased A21KW-500.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

David Ortiz said:


> I wonder if it is just a rebranding of the unreleased A21KW-500.


It could be something along those lines.

The new client was supposed to be a broadband device only so there wouldn’t be a need for it to be on there for an firmware update since even the Genies can get there firmware over internet now

It could also be the same devise but maybe a commercial 4K box

The one thing to bear in mind with that website is it has a habit occasionally of showing incorrect data There has been what we’re thought to be new products in there in the past but the website was doing something funky with the data


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

Barring an error with the model number on RedH, this is what I see- (and you could be right about the commercial receiver)-

-It would appear to be a single tuner IRD, not a DVR.
-Not a client.
-Not wireless (or maybe could be used wired or wireless).
-Has 4K capability- which would be good news in essence that 4K will still be around for awhile otherwise they may not make that investment in a new piece of hardware.

It’s all speculation of course, as I still cannot get any third party listing hits on that model number. There is a listing shown on UL for the A21KW-500 by Humax,


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

David Ortiz said:


> I wonder if it is just a rebranding of the unreleased A21KW-500.


The A21KW-500 wouldn't be getting firmware updates from satellite as all signs point to it being a C71K (DIRECTV STREAM Device) alternative and we know how DIRECTV feels about customers having both DIRECTV DBS and DIRECTV STREAM.


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

That's probably the commercial only receiver Stuart Sweet has been hinting at for some time.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

compnurd said:


> The one thing to bear in mind with that website is it has a habit occasionally of showing incorrect data There has been what we’re thought to be new products in there in the past but the website was doing something funky with the data


1st - garbage data happening sometimes, it's life stream with power outages, rain and computer's issues. It would lead to appear UNKN names with digits, NOT NAMES like this !
2nd - if you see at RedH such names, that means its KNOWN model.

That's it. No more info...


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

P Smith said:


> 1st - garbage data happening sometimes, it's life stream with power outages, rain and computer's issues. It would lead to appear UNKN names with digits, NOT NAMES like this !
> 2nd - if you see at RedH such names, that means its KNOWN model.
> 
> That's it. No more info...


Sorry bud but not true It’s happened several times in the past on there


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Proof ?


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Proof ?


If you want to go search the edgecutter page over the last decade have fun. We all know you have nothing better to do


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

harsh said:


> The A21KW-500 wouldn't be getting firmware updates from satellite as all signs point to it being a C71K (DIRECTV STREAM Device) alternative...


No client gets its updates from satellite either, but you can see all of the models on RedH. (The Genie servers receive and distribute updates for the clients, ICYDK.)


harsh said:


> ... and we know how DIRECTV feels about customers having both DIRECTV DBS and DIRECTV STREAM.


Yet there are people with both, not to mention that a client that would work with either service has some merit.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

compnurd said:


> If you want to go search the edgecutter page over the last decade have fun. We all know you have nothing better to do


your "knowledge" is just words, no more then that
from my side I know each byte and bit in FW streaming before it will hit the server as short string with FW version and model ID, but names assigned by servlet from a DB at the site
who is DB admin ? you knew it !


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

David Ortiz said:


> No client gets its updates from satellite either, but you can see all of the models on RedH. (The Genie servers receive and distribute updates for the clients, ICYDK.)
> 
> Yet there are people with both, not to mention that a client that would work with either service has some merit.


The update for the client still comes over the Sat to the Genie then sent to the client. So it still does get its update from the Sat


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

compnurd said:


> The update for the client still comes over the Sat to the Genie then sent to the client. So it still does get its update from the Sat


Did you read the whole sentence? I said all of the client models are listed on RedH, i.e. from the satellites. The point was that a new super duper combo client might show up on RedH.


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

compnurd said:


> Sorry bud but not true It’s happened several times in the past on there



No what happened before is that a "name" consisting of a random hex code showed up. There has never been a false alarm showing up that exactly matches Directv's naming scheme. If you were going to name a 4K receiver, H26 or H30, probably followed by a 'K' would be very likely candidates considering what names Directv has used in the past.

As for why this hasn't shown up on the FCC site, maybe it doesn't use any radio frequencies? Past hardware has shown up because it supports some flavor of RF remote control, and/or wifi. A commercial only receiver would be controlled via IP over DECA, and IR for initial configuration or troubleshooting. No point in supporting either wifi or RF remote control, so it may never appear on the FCC site unless the RF usage via the coax connection counts.

This is clearly a real receiver.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

compnurd said:


> It could be something along those lines.
> 
> *The new client was supposed to be a broadband device only so there wouldn’t be a need for it to be on there for an firmware update since even the Genies can get there firmware over internet now*
> 
> ...


If a new client shows up that is connected via Ethernet or WiFi only and if it can connect to a Genie server over a LAN, then there may still be a need for firmware updates for it to be distributed by satellite, as Internet access is not required for a Genie/Genie mini system to work.


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

It’s definitely real. I heard about it months ago.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

west99999 said:


> It’s definitely real. I heard about it months ago.


Is it spectacular?


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

David Ortiz said:


> Is it spectacular?


Just a stand alone 4K receiver.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

David Ortiz said:


> Did you read the whole sentence? I said all of the client models are listed on RedH, i.e. from the satellites. The point was that a new super duper combo client might show up on RedH.


Yes, I read the whole sentence if that was the point you’re trying to get across than your missing punctuation somewhere


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

David Ortiz said:


> If a new client shows up that is connected via Ethernet or WiFi only and if it can connect to a Genie server over a LAN, then there may still be a need for firmware updates for it to be distributed by satellite, as Internet access is not required for a Genie/Genie mini system to work.


True, but the new client is supposed to be an android tv model. There is no speculation that it’s going to work without Internet so connected to a genie without Internet will do nothing for it.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

west99999 said:


> Just a stand alone 4K receiver.


That’s actually pretty interesting because that could get you away from the client model with the genie and allow you to have more receivers


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

compnurd said:


> True, but the new client is supposed to be an android tv model. There is no speculation that it’s going to work without Internet so connected to a genie without Internet will do nothing for it.


I just speculated that it may work without Internet.


----------



## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

west99999 said:


> Just a stand alone 4K receiver.


This would support the model number being a H26K IRD, rather than a C26K client.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

David Ortiz said:


> Yet there are people with both, not to mention that a client that would work with either service has some merit.


That merit washes away when you consider that the DBS product connects via coaxial cable and the STREAM product connects via anything but. Making a single product for both sides would be confusing from a setup and support standpoint as well.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

harsh said:


> That merit washes away when you consider that the DBS product connects via coaxial cable and the STREAM product connects via anything but. Making a single product for both sides would be confusing from a setup and support standpoint as well.


Time will tell.


----------



## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> No what happened before is that a "name" consisting of a random hex code showed up. There has never been a false alarm showing up that exactly matches Directv's naming scheme. If you were going to name a 4K receiver, H26 or H30, probably followed by a 'K' would be very likely candidates considering what names Directv has used in the past.
> 
> As for why this hasn't shown up on the FCC site, maybe it doesn't use any radio frequencies? Past hardware has shown up because it supports some flavor of RF remote control, and/or wifi. A commercial only receiver would be controlled via IP over DECA, and IR for initial configuration or troubleshooting. No point in supporting either wifi or RF remote control, so it may never appear on the FCC site unless the RF usage via the coax connection counts.
> 
> This is clearly a real receiver.


Just to be clear, I don’t know where the FCC was referenced earlier in threads in regards to this receiver, but UL or a different approved third party testing lab is a completely different animal, and a requirement.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> As for why this hasn't shown up on the FCC site, maybe it doesn't use any radio frequencies?


This doesn't make sense as it would preclude the W designation along with denying Wi-fi, MoCA and RF remote capability.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

harsh said:


> This doesn't make sense as it would preclude the W designation along with denying Wi-fi, MoCA and RF remote capability.


It makes sense if you read the entire paragraph.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

codespy said:


> Just to be clear, I don’t know where the FCC was referenced earlier in threads in regards to this receiver, but UL or a different approved third party testing lab is a completely different animal, and a requirement.


Both approvals are required for any device that uses any kind of RF scheme be it Wi-fi, Bluetooth, MoCA or satellite IF. Any modern DIRECTV STB is almost certain to use at least the 2.4GHz band for the remote.


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> This doesn't make sense as it would preclude the W designation along with denying Wi-fi, MoCA and RF remote capability.


There is no reason why a commercial receiver would have wifi or support an RF remote. MoCA is irrelevant to FCC approval - it is delivered via coax and if FCC approval is required for stuff delivered via the coax port then SWM would trigger the need for it.


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> There is no reason why a commercial receiver would have wifi or support an RF remote. MoCA is irrelevant to FCC approval - it is delivered via coax and if FCC approval is required for stuff delivered via the coax port then SWM would trigger the need for it.


Almost every restaurant I’ve ever went to that had directv the receiver was out of sight either mounted behind the tv or somewhere else. I think they would definitely need RF.


----------



## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

H24’s and H25’s have RF, and used commonly that way in commercial setups near me as mentioned. Especially with multiple receivers at each establishment.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> MoCA is irrelevant to FCC approval - it is delivered via coax and if FCC approval is required for stuff delivered via the coax port then SWM would trigger the need for it.


That's not true. Anything that generates an RF signal must be approved whether that signal is destined for shielded cable or not. The FCC is concerned about leakage and resistance to interference as much as they are about the device's intended output. Bare MoCA adapters must have an FCC part 15B approval.

*







*


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

west99999 said:


> Almost every restaurant I’ve ever went to that had directv the receiver was out of sight either mounted behind the tv or somewhere else. I think they would definitely need RF.


Most use IP. Unless you want to deal with a couple dozen remotes, using RF is impractical unless the place is tiny - in which case using RF (which can have up to 8 codes) works just as well.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Most use IP.


Do you mean TCP/IP using SHEF or did you mean infra-red? I think SHEF being used by most would be a hard sell.

All recent STBs other than the H25 support RF remote but there was an aftermarket dongle to give the H25 RF remote capability (which it certainly should have come with).


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> Do you mean TCP/IP using SHEF or did you mean infra-red? I think SHEF being used by most would be a hard sell.
> 
> All recent STBs other than the H25 support RF remote but there was an aftermarket dongle to give the H25 RF remote capability (which it certainly should have come with).



There are tons of apps that control IP enabled hardware, including Directv's. Directv also has an iPad app built for commercial accounts.

You're talking outside your experience and knowledge once again. Maybe look at my sig, consider why I have that many receivers, and realize that I know far more about the bar/restaurant world than you ever will.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> There are tons of apps that control IP enabled hardware, including Directv's.


Most of the local establishments that I've visited that have DIRECTV use IR remotes. Some they have chained down at the booth and others are kept behind the "bar". Of course none of the establishments around here have anywhere near 30 DIRECTV receivers as DIRECTV doesn't offer Pac-12 requiring that Comcast (or DISH) be part of the mix. YMMV.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Even DISH receivers can be controlled via TCP/IP.


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> Most of the local establishments that I've visited that have DIRECTV use IR remotes. Some they have chained down at the booth and others are kept behind the "bar". Of course none of the establishments around here have anywhere near 30 DIRECTV receivers as DIRECTV doesn't offer Pac-12 requiring that Comcast (or DISH) be part of the mix. YMMV.


If they use IR remotes they don't need RF. If they use IP they don't need RF. There is not much point to RF remotes in a bar/restaurant because having a dedicated remote per TV would be totally unwieldy if you have more than a half dozen or so TVs.

Since Directv can use 8 different IR code sets you can manage TVs next to each other in various ways like by putting a little colored sticker on a TV that indicates the remote code its receiver is set to, and choose that color remote. Though places that use IR remotes don't seem to be that clever, I'll see them do stuff like wrapping their hand around the end of the remote so the beam only hits the desired TV lol


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Found this on the FCC:

Humax Wireless Streaming Device P21KW FCC ID O6ZP21KW


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> Found this on the FCC:
> 
> Humax Wireless Streaming Device P21KW FCC ID O6ZP21KW


Great find!

What we can gather from the RF testing information is that this is indeed a DIRECTV STREAM Device as the testing involved only Wi-Fi frequency radios.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> Great find!
> 
> What we can gather from the RF testing information is that this is indeed a DIRECTV STREAM Device as the testing involved only Wi-Fi frequency radios.


Back to the original survey at the beginning of this thread it did mention a _wireless_ 4K receiver.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

It does say DTV and not DTV Stream on the label. I hope that means they use it for DTV and DTV Stream. However, I wonder what the WIFI range would be on it and the distance it would need between it and the Genie 1 and 2 server?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Back to the original survey at the beginning of this thread it did mention a _wireless_ 4K receiver.


A Dongle.. Interesting


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> It does say DTV and not DTV Stream on the label. I hope that means they use it for DTV and DTV Stream. However, I wonder what the WIFI range would be on it and the distance it would need between it and the Genie 1 and 2 server?


The rebranded Ospreys only say Directv on them.. Reading into the name a little too much


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> Back to the original survey at the beginning of this thread it did mention a _wireless_ 4K receiver.


I didn't consider that. My bad.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> The rebranded Ospreys only say Directv on them.. Reading into the name a little too much


I didn't know that. I thought the latest models of the C71KW still had the AT&T Globe on the front. I saw a 2022 manufacturing date on ones listed on ebay that still had the globe.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

With Dolby Atmos/Vision support. 👍


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

compnurd said:


> The rebranded Ospreys only say Directv on them.


The product label (as opposed to the front panel artwork) is an element of the FCC approval so I'm a little surprised that they could tinker with it.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

compnurd said:


> A Dongle.. Interesting


P for pendant.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Just found this on DTV.com

All about your Gemini device | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> Just found this on DTV.com
> 
> All about your Gemini device | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


Looks like all of the info isn’t up yet but looks like it may be available soon. I think there will still be the $7 fee. Hopefully if you want one they won’t saddle you with a 2 year contract.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

I wonder if DTV will have a commerical like this?

Dish Network TV Spot, 'All in One Place' - iSpot.tv


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> Just found this on DTV.com
> 
> All about your Gemini device | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


So this Gemini device has an ethernet port but you have to have it wired via an ethernet coax adaptor to coax and can’t just use an ethernet cable to your router. But if you use Wi-Fi you only have to connect to your house Wi-Fi.









Set up Gemini device using a wired connection | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


Learn how to set up your Gemini device using a wired connection.



www.directv.com













Set up Gemini device over Wireless | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


Learn how to set up your Gemini device on your Wireless network.



www.directv.com


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

I wonder what the WIFI range will be for the device?


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> Just found this on DTV.com


Another most excellent find. You're on a roll.

[speculation]
It would appear that they're side-stepping the MoCA issue by optionally(?) using a DECA adapter in front of the Gemini. Holy Apple Ecosystem, Batman!

I wonder also if DIRECTV is testing the waters for a Zodiac theme rather than the Genie theme and whether or not this will require the newer MoCA (maybe they rename the Genie 2 as the Gemini to help in that distinction?).
[/speculation]

It does sound an awful lot like a Joey 4 (other than that the Joey 4 has MoCA built-in).


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

I think it’s the c71 being used as a genie client.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> I wonder what the WIFI range will be for the device?


Dongles aren't known for their range. Looking at the RF reports may answer that question.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> So this Gemini device has an ethernet port but you have to have it wired via an ethernet coax adaptor to coax and can’t just use an ethernet cable to your router. But if you use Wi-Fi you only have to connect to your house Wi-Fi.


I had the same thought.

Does DIRECTV allow Whole Home sessions on other than MoCA or WVB connections currently? IIRC, it started out that way suddenly it was abruptly prohibited.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

west99999 said:


> I think it’s the c71 being used as a genie client.


The c71 doesn’t have a micro usb.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Looks like all of the info isn’t up yet but looks like it may be available soon. I think there will still be the $7 fee. Hopefully if you want one they won’t saddle you with a 2 year contract.


If they want this to succeed they need to get around the 2-3 session limit the current Genies have


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

compnurd said:


> The c71 doesn’t have a micro usb.


We are talking about two different devices. The Gemini I think is the c71 connected to genie with satellite the pendant seems to be some type of stream only device.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

west99999 said:


> I think it’s the c71 being used as a genie client.


Why bother if the C71K could suffice?

Are dongles really the way to go?


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

harsh said:


> Why bother if the C71K could suffice?
> 
> Are dongles really the way to go?


I meant c71k currently used with stream and I’m thinking that’s going to work with satellite as a genie client now. The pendant seems to be a dongle for stream service.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

compnurd said:


> The c71 doesn’t have a micro usb.





west99999 said:


> We are talking about two different devices. The Gemini I think is the c71 connected to genie with satellite the pendant seems to be some type of stream only device.


The documentation at DIRECTV specifically mentions the micro USB on the device. As Compnurd said…the C71 does not have it.


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> The documentation at DIRECTV specifically mentions the micro USB on the device. As Compnurd said…the C71 does not have it.


Sorry I think that’s a broadband deca to make the connection to the genie.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

compnurd said:


> The c71 doesn’t have a micro usb.


A case could be made that no device should use micro USB but DIRECTV is clearly implying that adapters are acceptable with this device.


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

harsh said:


> A case could be made that no device should use micro USB but DIRECTV is clearly implying that adapters are acceptable with this device.


The broadband deca has a micro usb that plugs into a regular usb from a client or router for power.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

west99999 said:


> Sorry I think that’s a broadband deca to make the connection to the genie.


Ok after looking again it does state the micro usb is on the ethernet coax adaptor. But how can it get sat programming from a Genie by just wifi on the home network if one chooses not to hardwire via the ethernet coax adaptor?


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Ok after looking again it does state the micro usb is on the ethernet coax adaptor. But how can it get sat programming from a Genie by just wifi on the home network if one chooses not to hardwire via the ethernet coax adaptor?


I assume it will connect to your video bridge wireless same as any client.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

I don’t have a video bridge wireless So would they supply one with this device?


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

The HS-17, HR-54 and HR-44 have a video bridge built in, but it has limited range.

Does the DIRECTV Genie have a built-in Wireless Video Bridge? - The Solid Signal Blog


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

west99999 said:


> I assume it will connect to your video bridge wireless same as any client.


If not for the fact that this client is 4K capable (both DIRECTV and Internet streaming) that DIRECTV hasn't previously seen fit to offer. There is all manner of nasty, bandwidth-consuming things you can do with an Android TV device that you can't do with a Genie Mini so I believe that the need to maintain the exclusivity of the MoCA LAN is only going to increase with increases in bandwidth consumption.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> The HS-17, HR-54 and HR-44 have a video bridge built in, but it has limited range.


I interpret what Stuart said quite differently (the bolding and larger text is Stuart's doing):


Solid Signal Blog said:


> The Wi-Fi on the HR44 and HR54 is _only_ used to get on-demand programming and advanced features. It’s not used for anything else.
> *So, I’ll say it again, if you have an HR44 or HR54 Genie, you need a wireless video bridge. Simple as that.*


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> If not for the fact that this client is 4K capable (both DIRECTV and Internet streaming) that DIRECTV hasn't previously seen fit to offer. There is all manner of nasty, bandwidth-consuming things you can do with an Android TV device that you can't do with a Genie Mini so I believe that the need to maintain the exclusivity of the MoCA LAN is only going to increase with increases in bandwidth consumption.


I think Moca will be just for connecting the Genie 1 and 2 to be able to get all the channels and access the hard drive for recording and playback. WIFI will just be used for the APPS and if you don't want to use the deca adapter.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> I don’t have a video bridge wireless So would they supply one with this device?


I was wrong the HS-17 you don't need a video bridge depending on the distance. The HR-54 and HR-44 you do.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

compnurd said:


> If they want this to succeed they need to get around the 2-3 session limit the current Genies have


There may be a reason (however outdated) for that. Maybe they just don't want to explain to HR34 sufferers that their Genie just isn't up to it. They've always stuck to their "they're all the same" guns.

Since we're talking HR54 or later, that limit may (or may not) be necessary.

I'd imagine that RAM (maybe CPU horsepower as well) is the issue and rendering a bunch of guides all at once might hobble a 10+ year-old design that was already struggling with the new UI. I speculate that this may also be the reason that 4K capability was removed from the HR44.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Good info found but a lot questions still


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> I think Moca will be just for connecting the Genie 1 and 2 to be able to get all the channels and access the hard drive for recording and playback. WIFI will just be used for the APPS and if you don't want to use the deca adapter.


That's what I speculated as well but the instructions kind of make it sound like wiring is optional rather than requiring that both connections must be made.

If both are required, they were perhaps unwise to attempt a dongle (even if it does fit behind a wall-mounted TV). Reminds me of my Fire TV Stick which ended up being five different parts (it was either that or spending hundreds on Wi-Fi upgrades).


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

On my HR54 which is using Wi-Fi, downloading a 30 minute show using OnDemand is painfully slow. A lot slower than downloading a 30 minute show via Wi-Fi on my computer so it isn’t Wi-Fi that is slow.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> On my HR54 which is using Wi-Fi, downloading a 30 minute show using OnDemand is painfully slow. A lot slower than downloading a 30 minute show via Wi-Fi on my computer so it isn’t Wi-Fi that is slow.


Isn't the wifi in the HR54 only 802.11n? Whereas your laptop would likely be 802.11ac as long as its not ancient. 802.11n is going to have weaker range and slower speeds. You could get 802.11ac speeds (limited by the ethernet port) & range by using the ethernet port and going into an AC bridge and letting that do the wifi part. I have all the equipment at my TV going through the bridge. Also has the benefit of less wifi congestion.

I just tried timing a 30 min VOD download (22 mins) and it took 3.5 minutes.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> Isn't the wifi in the HR54 only 802.11n? Whereas your laptop would likely be 802.11ac as long as its not ancient. 802.11n is going to have weaker range and slower speeds. You could get 802.11ac speeds (limited by the ethernet port) & range by using the ethernet port and going into an AC bridge. I have everything at my TV going through the bridge. Also has the benefit of less wifi congestion.


The HR54 doesn’t have Ethernet at its location and I’m too old to run it through the crawl space or attic. I would probably need to get a power line Ethernet adapter to get the HR54 wired. Why the need for an AC bridge with Ethernet?


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> The HR54 doesn’t have Ethernet at its location and I’m too old to run it through the crawl space or attic. I would probably need to get a power line Ethernet adapter to get the HR54 wired. Why the need for an AC bridge with Ethernet?


Nah, that's the point of the AC (called Wifi5 now) bridge. You hard wire the HR54 via ethernet into the bridge and the bridge connects to your main router via Wifi. The idea is that if you get an AC/Wifi5 bridge, you can connect to the main router via AC/Wifi5 instead of the N (called Wifi4 now) you're using now. The bridge sits at your TV, so its just plugging a 1 to 2 ft ethernet cord into it. So, the set up is:

HR54 -> short ethernet cord into an AC/Wifi5 bridge sitting next to it ------> wifi -----------> main router

It won't be as fast as on your laptop since that can take the AC/Wifi5 speeds directly, where as on the HR54, you'll be limited by the ethernet port at 100Mbps.

No way you're getting 100Mbps with N (Wifi4).

And as always, YMMV depending on distances and the speed of your internet, so you could get an AC/Wifi5 bridge from somewhere returnable and if it doesn't improve your download time, just return it.

As an example, my parents still have a Wifi4 router (don't ask me why lol), and 200Mbps internet, and by the time it gets near the TV, it's only 20Mbps.


----------



## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

b4pjoe said:


> On my HR54 which is using Wi-Fi, downloading a 30 minute show using OnDemand is painfully slow. A lot slower than downloading a 30 minute show via Wi-Fi on my computer so it isn’t Wi-Fi that is slow.


That is painful, which is why I have two DECA’s with my parallel SWM16’s via the 8way splitters.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

west99999 said:


> I assume it will connect to your video bridge wireless same as any client.





b4pjoe said:


> So this Gemini device has an ethernet port but you have to have it wired via an ethernet coax adaptor to coax and can’t just use an ethernet cable to your router. But if you use Wi-Fi you only have to connect to your house Wi-Fi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





b4pjoe said:


> Ok after looking again it does state the micro usb is on the ethernet coax adaptor. But how can it get sat programming from a Genie by just wifi on the home network if one chooses not to hardwire via the ethernet coax adaptor?


From the Get Help page:

If you see *error code 630*, your DIRECTV Gemini Device is unable to connect to your Wireless Video Bridge.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

west99999 said:


> I meant c71k currently used with stream and I’m thinking that’s going to work with satellite as a genie client now. The pendant seems to be a dongle for stream service.


From the set up page:

2. Plug the HDMI cable into your device and the other end into your TV.

The Gemini device has an HDMI port. The pendant presumably has an attached HDMI cable stub.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

west99999 said:


> I think it’s the c71 being used as a genie client.


Bingo! (At least it looks like the C71.)


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/DirectvStream/comments/yt6i6r/_/iwt15e1


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

b4pjoe said:


> So this Gemini device has an ethernet port but you have to have it wired via an ethernet coax adaptor to coax and can’t just use an ethernet cable to your router. But if you use Wi-Fi you only have to connect to your house Wi-Fi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure it'll work fine with ethernet directly connected - they'd have to really go out of their way to avoid that. They just won't support that type of connection nor will their installers install it like that, because they don't want to deal with customer supported equipment (i.e. router/switch)


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

We shall see


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

David Ortiz said:


> Bingo! (At least it looks like the C71.)
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/DirectvStream/comments/yt6i6r/_/iwt15e1


From that screen cap: "Gemini will work with existing Genie 2 Servers (HS17), and Genie Minis".

So not compatible with HR54, HR44, and older receivers?


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

GEMINI - Directv, Llc Trademark Registration


Trademark registration by Directv, Llc for the trademark GEMINI.




uspto.report


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> From that screen cap: "Gemini will work with existing Genie 2 Servers (HS17), and Genie Minis".
> 
> So not compatible with HR54, HR44, and older receivers?


The social media team that comments on reddit are a bunch of morons. I would take little stock in what they try to say


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Considering this adds as a client to the existing system It looks like on the surface it will still carry the 7 dollar monthly fee..


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

> Primary US Classes
> 021: Electrical Apparatus, Machines and Supplies
> 023: Cutlery, Machinery, Tools and Parts Thereof
> 026: Measuring and Scientific Appliances
> ...


Seems to me DTV want to cover very broad , way outside of its own business  like "* fire-extinguishing apparatus"* [bold is mine]


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> From that screen cap: "Gemini will work with existing Genie 2 Servers (HS17), and Genie Minis".
> 
> So not compatible with HR54, HR44, and older receivers?


This is in the setup instructions.

Set up Gemini device using a wired connection | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support

"Connecting your new Gemini device to your DIRECTV network and main Genie server (HR44/HR54 models)."


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

compnurd said:


> The social media team that comments on reddit are a bunch of morons. I would take little stock in what they try to say


How can you not trust info from a source that says it supports 3D which has been dead for, what, 5 - 7 years?  . Also, the 5GB storage number is kinda odd.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

SledgeHammer said:


> Also, the 5GB storage number is kinda odd.


I would guess, it has eMMC chip 8GB size, 3 GB taken for its OS needs...


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

CraigerM said:


> "Connecting your new Gemini device to your DIRECTV network and main Genie server (HR44/HR54 models)."


Is there any YT video "Unpacking new DTV device" ?


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> This is in the setup instructions.
> 
> Set up Gemini device using a wired connection | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support
> 
> "Connecting your new Gemini device to your DIRECTV network and main Genie server (HR44/HR54 models)."


Thanks. I thought I had seen it somwhere about HR44/HR54 but then couldn't find it.


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

b4pjoe said:


> Thanks. I thought I had seen it somwhere about HR44/HR54 but then couldn't find it.


It's possible there will be a pilot rollout limited to the Genie 2 and specific markets.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

David Ortiz said:


> It's possible there will be a pilot rollout limited to the Genie 2 and specific markets.


Probably not going to get one anyway. If I replaced an HR24 I'd be losing the 2 tuners from the HR24 plus the tuner it would steal from the HR54.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

The Solid Signal Blog thinks having a DTV C71KW will be an interim solution until they have the DTV APP be a full client replacement.

When will DIRECTV release a Genie client app? - The Solid Signal Blog


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm at the point I wish they would somehow incorprate a CLOUD DVR on the satellite side with the same features of the STREAM service. I could greatly simplify my setup if that were to happen.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> I'm at the point I wish they would somehow incorprate a CLOUD DVR on the satellite side with the same features of the STREAM service. I could greatly simplify my setup if that were to happen.


How would a cloud DVR help? If size is an issue, you could pretty much add "unlimited" storage to the Genie.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Number of tuners required by satellite: One for each recording. Number of tuners required for CLOUD DVR: 0 (Assuming a CLOUD DVR on sat could work the same as on STREAM. Which I don't know if it could.)


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

David Ortiz said:


> Bingo! (At least it looks like the C71.)


We're probably not talking about the same device here. Here's a picture from the FCC application (specifically the Label and Location document):








Perhaps there is a set-top version (not part of this grant) as well.

Note the current requirement. HDMI is limited to 300mA and only when "HDMI Cable Power" is available so that pretty much confirms that a power cable (and probably a wall wart) will be in the mix.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Number of tuners required by satellite: One for each recording. Number of tuners required for CLOUD DVR: 0 (Assuming a CLOUD DVR on sat could work the same as on STREAM. Which I don't know if it could.)


You can _*honestly*_ find 5+ things to record SIMULATANEOUSLY on cable TV? I wish I could haha. If you really can, shows on cable typically air twice same day (i.e. 5pm and 8pm) or show up on VOD the next day (also integrated into the DVR) for TV. Still find it hard to believe you can you use all your tuners simultaneously though lol.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> We're probably not talking about the same device here. Here's a picture from the FCC application (specifically the Label and Location document):
> View attachment 32712
> 
> Perhaps there is a set-top version as well.


As has already been addressed in this thread this new Gemini Device is not the dongle. It is the C71 that looks exactly like the DIRECTV STREAM box. Just different software on it.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> You can _*honestly*_ find 5+ things to record SIMULATANEOUSLY on cable TV? I wish I could haha. If you really can, shows on cable typically air twice same day (i.e. 5pm and 8pm) or show up on VOD the next day (also integrated into the DVR) for TV. Still find it hard to believe you can you use all your tuners simultaneously though lol.


14 of them between 3 people. It isn't that hard since no one likes watching commercials so there is a lot of recording going on. We really don't use OnDemand as you are forced to watch commercials. Might as well switch to ad supported streaming if I have to watch commercials. 🤪

Also network shows, news, sports, movies etc...are not on twice a day. We use all of those tuners. Hence my recent refusal to take a Genie client instead of a replacement HR24. I would upgrade to the HS17 if they would let me have two of them on one account.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> The Solid Signal Blog thinks having a DTV C71KW will be an interim solution until they have the DTV APP be a full client replacement.


Stuart makes it clear that his blog entry is speculation with respect to the C71KW app getting client capability; however well-reasoned it may be.

I question his assertion that today's streaming devices are obviously more powerful than the C71KW.

Obviously, there will need to be an app for the dongle but that doesn't insure that it will be made available for the C71KW.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> 14 of them between 3 people. It isn't that hard since no one likes watching commercials so there is a lot of recording going on. We really don't use OnDemand as you are forced to watch commercials. Might as well switch to ad supported streaming if I have to watch commercials. 🤪
> 
> Also network shows, news, sports, movies etc...are not on twice a day. We use all of those tuners. Hence my recent refusal to take a Genie client instead of a replacement HR24. I would upgrade to the HS17 if they would let me have two of them on one account.


Take the recording piece out and not using an actual tuner would be nice from a amount of hardware standpoint.. I had only 7 clients previously with my HS17.. I have 10 Stream devices now.. I can have all of them watching TV and record 40 programs at the same time


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

harsh said:


> Stuart makes it clear that his blog entry is speculation with respect to the C71KW app getting client capability; however well-reasoned it may be.
> 
> I question his assertion that today's streaming devices are obviously more powerful than the C71KW.
> 
> Obviously, there will need to be an app for the dongle but that doesn't insure that it will be made available for the C71KW.


And yet the info on directv.com describe a device called Gemini, that has an Ethernet and HDMI port, uses the Wireless Video Bridge if not wired, and is added as a client directly to a Genie. I have not been posting about the P21KW.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

compnurd said:


> Take the recording piece out and not using an actual tuner would be nice from a amount of hardware standpoint.. I had only 7 clients previously with my HS17.. I have 10 Stream devices now.. I can have all of them watching TV and record 40 programs at the same time


If it were just me I would be using Stream. Some people just don’t like change.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> We really don't use OnDemand as you are forced to watch commercials.


It wouldn't be that bad if they showed *different *commercials lol. Every VOD show I've ever watched showed the same 1 or 2 commercials over and over. But I'd rather FF through them as well.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> It wouldn't be that bad if they showed *different *commercials lol. Every VOD show I've ever watched showed the same 1 or 2 commercials over and over. But I'd rather FF through them as well.


All commercials are bad when you can’t FF through them.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

I wonder how you are going to be able to order one without the CSR confusing it with the DTV Stream box?


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> I wonder how you are going to be able to order one without the CSR confusing it with the DTV Stream box?


I am sure it will have two different skus in the system along with it won’t let you order a certain type depending on the account


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> If it were just me I would be using Stream. Some people just don’t like change.


Sometimes you gotta force the issue


----------



## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

compnurd said:


> Sometimes you gotta force the issue


You obviously have not met my wife. 🤣


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

They have added the differences in the remotes.

Explore your Gemini Voice Remote | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Got mine ordered. What a debacle. First rep said I need to upgrade my genie (I have a genie2) second rep said not available yet. Escalated and called me back and got it ordered through my protection plan free upgrade. It is a c71 running satellite software supposedly. Said launch was today for select markets with internet connected genie 2 only. Oh and it’s drop ship only to start. I’ll be swapping a couple of my 4K clients.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

west99999 said:


> Got mine ordered. What a debacle. First rep said I need to upgrade my genie (I have a genie2) second rep said not available yet. Escalated and called me back and got it ordered through my protection plan free upgrade. It is a c71 running satellite software supposedly. Said launch was today for select markets with internet connected genie 2 only. Oh and it’s drop ship only to start. I’ll be swapping a couple of my 4K clients.


New 2 year commitment or not?

Is HS17 only a temporary thing or just the way it is going to be?


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> New 2 year commitment or not?
> 
> Is HS17 only a temporary thing or just the way it is going to be?


They said to start it’s only genie 2 and must have internet. Using your protection plan upgrade does start a commitment.


----------



## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Is there a $7 monthly fee for each Gemini box like the minis? Or, can you purchase them outright like with Directv Stream with no additional monthly fee. Has anyone seen the what the UI looks like? If so, could you post some screen shots?


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

west99999 said:


> Got mine ordered. What a debacle. First rep said I need to upgrade my genie (I have a genie2) second rep said not available yet. Escalated and called me back and got it ordered through my protection plan free upgrade. It is a c71 running satellite software supposedly. Said launch was today for select markets with internet connected genie 2 only. Oh and it’s drop ship only to start. I’ll be swapping a couple of my 4K clients.


Do you know which are the select markets?


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

jal said:


> Is there a $7 monthly fee for each Gemini box like the minis? Or, can you purchase them outright like with Directv Stream with no additional monthly fee. Has anyone seen the what the UI looks like? If so, could you post some screen shots?


My guess is we will get those answers when west gets his.. No one knows yet..


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

I'll be shocked if there isn't a $7.00 per month charge for it.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

One thing I thought was strange about the C71 remote is why they don't have instead of those three dots they would say info instead?


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> One thing I thought was strange about the C71 remote is why they don't have instead of those three dots they would say info instead?


Because then they would have to re-do all the remotes they have stockpiled


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> Because then they would have to re-do all the remotes they have stockpiled


Sorry, I should have said when they first made them.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> Sorry, I should have said when they first made them.


Three dots are cheaper than 4 letters? 😆


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> I wonder how you are going to be able to order one without the CSR confusing it with the DTV Stream box?


It would assume that you'll ask for either the Gemini box or the Google TV box.


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> It would assume that you'll ask for either the Gemini box or the Google TV box.


  Yeah like a DirecTV CSR is going to know what a Gemini or Google TV box is. They would know what to send based on if your account is satellite or steaming.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> Yeah like a DirecTV CSR is going to know what a Gemini or Google TV box is. They would know what to send based on if your account is satellite or steaming.


I wonder how many would get sent the DTV Stream Box when they would ask for the Gemini box?  I think once its fully available for the HS-17, HR-54 and HR-44 they should have order page at DTV.com like they have when you order the DTV Stream box.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> I wonder how many would get sent the DTV Stream Box when they would ask for the Gemini box?  I think once its fully available for the HS-17, HR-54 and HR-44 they should have order page at DTV.com like they have when you order the DTV Stream box.


I am fairly certain there model numbers in the system will be different for the image


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

compnurd said:


> I am fairly certain there model numbers in the system will be different for the image


What does this mean?


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

west99999 said:


> Got mine ordered. What a debacle. First rep said I need to upgrade my genie (I have a genie2) second rep said not available yet. Escalated and called me back and got it ordered through my protection plan free upgrade. It is a c71 running satellite software supposedly. Said launch was today for select markets with internet connected genie 2 only. Oh and it’s drop ship only to start. I’ll be swapping a couple of my 4K clients.


According to this article, the markets are Oklahoma City, Nashville and Birmingham.









DirecTV Testing Gemini Hardware | Distribution | Cablefax


Select DirecTV customers have been selected for a trial to test its next-generation hardware, Gemini.



www.cablefax.com


----------



## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

jal said:


> Is there a $7 monthly fee for each Gemini box like the minis? Or, can you purchase them outright like with Directv Stream with no additional monthly fee. Has anyone seen the what the UI looks like? If so, could you post some screen shots?


Standard TV Access fee...









Gemini mini | DIRECTV Community Forums


There is a new "mini" type box on the Directv Website called a Gemini. Seems, hardware wise, to be identical to the Directv Osprey Stream Box. Does Directv Satellite charge $7 per mont...




forums.directv.com


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

Oooof


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

What's hilarious is that sat clients are free to DirecTV infrastructure wise, but adding streaming clients is very expensive from that point of view since each one adds additional load to the backend and there's a lot more people & processes required. For sat, all the bits are floating in the air for free. They got the per-client fees backwards on this one.


----------



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> What's hilarious is that sat clients are free to DirecTV infrastructure wise, but adding streaming clients is very expensive from that point of view since each one adds additional load to the backend and there's a lot more people & processes required. For sat, all the bits are floating in the air for free. They got the per-client fees backwards on this one.


They don't have the choice to charge that way for streaming, there is too much competition. If it was just them and Dish no doubt they would charge per client and have two year commitments.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> They don't have the choice to charge that way for streaming, there is too much competition. If it was just them and Dish no doubt they would charge per client and have two year commitments.


Yup, and thus most streaming services are bleeding heavily. So folks are still seeing these "teaser" prices on streaming services. You could happily take advantage of the artificially low prices over the past years and for the near term future. But a bit further out and its pretty obvious the current streaming pricing models will not survive. Streaming services have been acquiring subs "at all costs" and that's not financially viable.

We're already starting to see some of that with ad supported tiers, double digit price hikes, etc.

I don't know that a streaming service needs to have a 2 yr commitment though. That doesn't fit their model since its all self install and in most cases not even an install since they just build an app. With sat, you have more complex equipment and installs. Cable is also a cheap / non issue install. FTTH is a costly install and should have a contract.

But for the per client fees, it makes a lot more sense for streaming to do that. For sat its just a flat out money grab, as are the stupid fees like WHDVR lol. What is that? HD could be argued, maybe not anymore though since SD is dead. DVR fee? fair enough to charge more for the monthly on that since you're getting more.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

SledgeHammer said:


> DVR fee? fair enough to charge more for the monthly on that since you're getting more.


Why is that?! DVR functionality enclosed inside of the device - it gets nothing from outside of it, what service outside it they provided ? To procure the DVR fee?!
You could say - EEPG... OK then charge for IT !, not the foolish reason.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Why is that?! DVR functionality enclosed inside of the device - it gets nothing from outside of it, what service outside it they provided ? To procure the DVR fee?!
> You could say - EEPG... OK then charge for IT !, not the foolish reason.


Well, it has the 2+ tuners, hard drive, recording, EEPG, etc. I didn't say I like I it , I said its probably fair for them to charge more for the DVR then a non-DVR. Probably not $10 more though. The WHDVR fee doesn't make sense at all lol since you're already paying $7/mo for each client and the DVR fee. Although, for newer folks, that's all rolled into a flat $25 fee.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

SledgeHammer said:


> fair for them to charge more for the DVR then a non-DVR.


Now remind us - what the price you must pay upfront for DVR vs a receiver ? umm


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

With DTV Stream no DVR or Receiver fee and up to 20 streams.


----------



## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Now remind us - what the price you must pay upfront for DVR vs a receiver ? umm


$0 if you ask nicely .

I fully admit DirecTV has a lot of scam fees. Personally, they can make up all the scam fees they want as long as my out the door price keeps me happy. When it doesn't, or the birds fall out of the sky, then I'll look at alternatives.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Just saw they took down the Gemini support page. It now has a 404 error. Unless they are updating the page?


----------



## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Still there for me at:









All about your Gemini device | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


Explore the features of the DIRECTV Gemini device, how to pair the Voice remote, access apps, and more.



www.directv.com


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

b4pjoe said:


> Still there for me at:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Must have just been an Edge browser error. Sorry.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I get a 404 error from the "Review and manage settings on Gemini device" and "Find more support for your Gemini device" links but not the linked page.

I'd bet it was a temporary server error rather than a browser error.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

DTV app now works for GoogleTV. Tried it on my Sony 65" X930e. The sound seems kind of low and you can't change the channel numbers with the Sony remote. PQ looks good. Too bad they won't add channel numbers with the TV remote.


----------



## AngryManMLS (Jan 30, 2014)

Just tested on my Nvidia Shield 2019. Audio shockingly is Dolby Digital on multiple channels I tested (local CBS, MSNBC, ESPN). Picture is pretty good looking. Sadly like in the previous post no channel up/down or channel numbers working with my Logitech Harmony. Nice to see DirecTV finally adding support for Android TV.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Wait, wait, wait ... Are we done with Gemini and going totally ofttopic with the app ?!


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

P Smith said:


> Wait, wait, wait ... Are we done with Gemini and going totally ofttopic with the app ?!


Sorry, I put that post in the wrong thread.


----------



## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

I would be interested in this so called Gemini box if it can play DVR recordings from our HR44. I would like a more modern look and feel similar to the DirecTV stream app, but with all the channels, channel number entry, channel up down, etc. 

While the app is nice and looks good on Roku and Google TV as of tonight.. there’s still a lot of channels missing and it can’t play saved DVR recordings. There’s also no LG WebOS version of the app. Only xfinity stream. This is odd since our LG C2 OLED has one of the best pictures I’ve ever seen and it constantly gets rave reviews on sites/YouTube like DigitalTrends, rtings.com, stop the fomo, and others. You’d think if a tv was that good (it truly is) DirecTV would port it’s app to it.

So I’d be willing to trade in the c61 for some new voice remote, full DVR with 30sec skip, full channel lineup modern UI.

I have two local cable company options. One uses TiVo with a voice remote. The other is xfinity with X1 and it’s voice remote. Xfinity also has an app. But the broadcast and RSN fees make it more expensive to go to cable. I’d really like to see DirecTV catch up to cable and innovate the software side of the house like they once did.


----------



## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

cypherx said:


> I would be interested in this so called Gemini box if it can play DVR recordings from our HR44. I would like a more modern look and feel similar to the DirecTV stream app, but with all the channels, channel number entry, channel up down, etc.
> 
> While the app is nice and looks good on Roku and Google TV as of tonight.. there’s still a lot of channels missing and it can’t play saved DVR recordings. There’s also no LG WebOS version of the app. Only xfinity stream. This is odd since our LG C2 OLED has one of the best pictures I’ve ever seen and it constantly gets rave reviews on sites/YouTube like DigitalTrends, rtings.com, stop the fomo, and others. You’d think if a tv was that good (it truly is) DirecTV would port it’s app to it.
> 
> ...


Based on the info given it’s the same UI as the Genie. It’s it the Stream UI


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> Sorry, I put that post in the wrong thread.


It happens even within this thread. I missed the transition from the FCC-approved dongle to the Gemini STB.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

cypherx said:


> I would like a more modern look and feel similar to the DirecTV stream app, but with all the channels, channel number entry, channel up down, etc.


The "look and feel" (RUI) of an RVU client is supposed to be largely (if not entirely) independent of the client.

Because the RUI is rendered in the Genie and not by the client, I wouldn't expect the Gemini interface to look noticeably different than a Genie Mini when it is being used as a Genie client. Any significant changes or improvements would need to be made on the Genie side and that's rarely met with overwhelmingly happy anticipation.


----------



## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> The "look and feel" (RUI) of an RVU client is supposed to be largely (if not entirely) independent of the client.
> 
> Because the RUI is rendered in the Genie and not by the client, I wouldn't expect the Gemini interface to look noticeably different than a Genie Mini when it is being used as a Genie client. Any significant changes or improvements would need to be made on the Genie side and that's rarely met with overwhelmingly happy anticipation.


I think the Gemini has the Android Operator's Tier on it so couldn't they have they the DTV Stream GUI on it and just have it work with the Genie 1 and 2 hard drive? With the Android TV Operator's Tier, you can design the GUI to look anyway that they would want it to look like. I think they choose DTV's GUI because DTV customers are used to it and thought they might not want to learn how to use the DTV Stream GUI? I could be wrong on that.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Do you ever think they will try to compete with TiVo, Dish and X1? I mean Genie just works which is fine, but all the others i mentioned have additional features or graphics. 

In my kids room I was messing with DirecTV stream on roku since they don’t have a box. I noticed I could see the list of DVR recordings but the majority were not playable. Seems like it only plays what’s available from on demand. That’s unfortunate because most on demand platforms do not allow fast forward.

I still like DirecTV over both of the local cable company options I have at my address. The saving grace is the lack of broadcast fee that’s in the $20-$30 a month range with cable. I save a bit of money only doing internet and phone on cable and then use DirecTV for video. I used to hate rain fade or snow covered dish but not anymore with streamsaver or DTV Stream app.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

cypherx said:


> Do you ever think they will try to compete with TiVo, Dish and X1? I mean Genie just works which is fine, but all the others i mentioned have additional features or graphics.
> 
> In my kids room I was messing with DirecTV stream on roku since they don’t have a box. I noticed I could see the list of DVR recordings but the majority were not playable. Seems like it only plays what’s available from on demand. That’s unfortunate because most on demand platforms do not allow fast forward.
> 
> I still like DirecTV over both of the local cable company options I have at my address. The saving grace is the lack of broadcast fee that’s in the $20-$30 a month range with cable. I save a bit of money only doing internet and phone on cable and then use DirecTV for video. I used to hate rain fade or snow covered dish but not anymore with streamsaver or DTV Stream app.


Thats not Directv Stream.. Thats using the Directv App with your Sat Credentials. DIRECTV Stream has unlimited DVR and plays whatever version you record


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> I think the Gemini has the Android Operator's Tier on it so couldn't they have they the DTV Stream GUI on it and just have it work with the Genie 1 and 2 hard drive?


I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. They don't want something that isn't 100% within their control (including what it runs on and any apps that might be running in the background) to be talking directly to a hard drive. I reason that if they were convinced that using that scheme was the direction they wanted to go, they wouldn't have removed the DIRECTV App's access to the DVRs. It was already implemented in the older satellite version.


> With the Android TV Operator's Tier, you can design the GUI to look anyway that they would want it to look like.


That's great for Android, but DIRECTV chose RVU/RUI.


> I think they choose DTV's GUI because DTV customers are used to it and thought they might not want to learn how to use the DTV Stream GUI? I could be wrong on that.


I'd doubt your wrong and that's why I mentioned the part about "rarely met with overwhelming anticipation".


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. They don't want something that isn't 100% within their control (including what it runs on and any apps that might be running in the background) to be talking directly to a hard drive. I reason that if they were convinced that using that scheme was the direction they wanted to go, they wouldn't have removed the DIRECTV App's access to the DVRs. It was already implemented in the older satellite version.That's great for Android, but DIRECTV chose RVU/RUI.I'd doubt your wrong and that's why I mentioned the part about "rarely met with overwhelming anticipation".


How would they get the Google Play Store and APPS on the Gemini with some type of Android Operating System?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> How would they get the Google Play Store and APPS on the Gemini with some type of Android Operating System?


We know from the redit post that the Gemini will be running a version of Android TV and as such, it will most likely have access to a selection of Google Play apps just as the C71KW does.

I imagine the only difference from the end user's perspective is the DIRECTV App that loads by default. The C71KW will feature the DIRECTV app and the Gemini will have some sort of RVU app.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Is this in fcc docs yet? Any screen shots?


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

It uses the same box as the DTV Stream but with the DTV GUI.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> We know from the redit post that the Gemini will be running a version of Android TV and as such, it will most likely have access to a selection of Google Play apps just as the C71KW does.
> 
> I imagine the only difference from the end user's perspective is the DIRECTV App that loads by default. The C71KW will feature the DIRECTV app and the Gemini will have some sort of RVU app.


Hope this version of RVU better than the last version. The last version was so bad they recommended using the Mini instead.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

CraigerM said:


> -
> 
> Hope this version of RVU better than the last version. The last version was so bad they recommended using the Mini instead.


Again, all the minis use RVU.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

David Ortiz said:


> Again, all the mini's use RVU.


Sorry, I forgot how the minis connect.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

cypherx said:


> Is this in fcc docs yet? Any screen shots?


The manufacturer may do what Humax did with the PS21KW and put a moratorium on releasing "trade secret" stuff like pictures for 6 months.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

harsh said:


> We know from the redit post that the Gemini will be running a version of Android TV and as such, it will most likely have access to a selection of Google Play apps just as the C71KW does.
> 
> I imagine the only difference from the end user's perspective is the DIRECTV App that loads by default. The C71KW will feature the DIRECTV app and the Gemini will have some sort of RVU app.


The only thing that disappoints me with the Android DirecTV Stream C71KW is that they do not let you download the AppleTV+ app. Apparently DirecTV controls what Apps you can download from the Google store. It also does not let you delete Apps you don't subscribe to, in my case Discovery+, so they will always show up in your program guide.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

There doesnt need to be a FCC doc.. Its existing hardware


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Phil T said:


> The only thing that disappoints me with the Android DirecTV Stream C71KW is that they do not let you download the AppleTV+ app. Apparently DirecTV controls what Apps you can download from the Google store. *It also does not let you delete Apps you don't subscribe to, in my case Discovery+, so they will always show up in your program guide.*


Why would an app be in the program guide? Doesn’t the program guide just show channels from the package you subscribe to.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

On DirecTV Stream the apps are assigned channel numbers in the 190 and 500 channel ranges. This is only on the C71KW and not on Roku's and other streaming apps. Preloaded Apps are Netflix, Amazon, HBO MAX, and Discovery +.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Phil T said:


> On DirecTV Stream the apps are assigned channel numbers in the 190 and 500 channel ranges. This is only on the C71KW and not on Roku's and other streaming apps. Preloaded Apps are Netflix, Amazon, HBO MAX, and Discovery +.


So on teh C71KW...if you click on a channel number for a Discovery channel, lets say channel 278 in the program guide, it launches the Discovery+ app instead of switching to the linear channel 278 which is Discovery?


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

b4pjoe said:


> So on teh C71KW...if you click on a channel number for a Discovery channel, lets say channel 278 in the program guide, it launches the Discovery+ app instead of switching to the linear channel 278 which is Discovery?


No, 278 does launch the linear Discovery channel. Discovery + app is in the guide on channel 196.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)




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## TXD16 (Oct 30, 2008)

Phil T said:


> No, 278 does launch the linear Discovery channel. Discovery + app is in the guide on channel 196.


Just curious, but why not just create a favorites list that excludes the undesired apps?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

TXD16 said:


> Just curious, but why not just create a favorites list that excludes the undesired apps?


You can


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## TXD16 (Oct 30, 2008)

compnurd said:


> You can


Agreed, which is the source of my confusion and why I asked the question.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

Phil T said:


> No, 278 does launch the linear Discovery channel. Discovery + app is in the guide on channel 196.


Okay thanks for explaining. I didn’t know they actually put apps in the guide. I’ve never seen the UI of the box.


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## TXD16 (Oct 30, 2008)

Phil T said:


> The only thing that disappoints me with the Android DirecTV Stream C71KW is that they do not let you download the AppleTV+ app. Apparently DirecTV controls what Apps you can download from the Google store...


FWIW, if you can find and download the app/apk, there are numerous ways to sideload the same to an Osprey box, my favorite way being the Windows-centric abdLink app.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

TXD16 said:


> Just curious, but why not just create a favorites list that excludes the undesired apps?


Duh, I didn’t think of it. Still a lot of work to get rid of a couple apps.


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## stsrep (Mar 10, 2007)

I have made numerous attempts at DTV to send me a Gemini box to replace a C61K mini.
They refuse even though I've been invited to test the new box thru contact at DTV.
Even tried to upgrade thru the 2 yr Protection Plan upgrade.
WTF is so secretive with this crap??
Been customer for 25 years.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

stsrep said:


> I have made numerous attempts at DTV to send me a Gemini box to replace a C61K mini.
> They refuse even though I've been invited to test the new box thru contact at DTV.
> Even tried to upgrade thru the 2 yr Protection Plan upgrade.
> WTF is so secretive with this crap??
> Been customer for 25 years.


A couple pages back, here, David posted the markets where is fist stage happening


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## stsrep (Mar 10, 2007)

I'm in the Nashville DMA which is one of the test markets.
DTV is blowing smoke about this so how do I not call them and complain??


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

find here phone of an office the president of DTV, call them


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Do you have a genie 2 and internet connection? If not you want be eligible yet. Mine shows out for delivery by end of day.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

west99999 said:


> Do you have a genie 2 and internet connection? If not you want be eligible yet. Mine shows out for delivery by end of day.


Are you connecting it with WiFi or DECA/coax?


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

David Ortiz said:


> Are you connecting it with WiFi or DECA/coax?


I’m swapping g 4K clients so already got cable and I will just add deca. It will likely be a few days before I get to it but I’ll post pics once done.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Just got off doing a chat with a CSR. She said the only way to get one now, with the exception of West9999 is to have gotten an email invite for them. She said there was a limited number available She said it will fully launch at the end of January. It would also be a free upgrade. She also said it will be posted everywhere on DTV.com.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> Just got off doing a chat with a CSR. She said the only way to get one now, with the exception of West9999 is to have gotten an email invite for them. She said there was a limited number available She said it will fully launch at the end of January. It would also be a free upgrade. She also said it will be posted everywhere on DTV.com.


And CSRs are historically the source of truth, so... 😂


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

SledgeHammer said:


> And CSRs are historically the source of truth, so... 😂


I thought DTV chat might be better than phone.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> I thought DTV chat might be better than phone.


My guess is they told you what they were told to tell anyone that asks about it. Now whether any of it is true is anyone's guess.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> My guess is they told you what they were told to tell anyone that asks about it. Now whether any of it is true is anyone's guess.


It's like Area 51. Everybody knows its there, but they pretend it doesn't exist unless you got clearance .


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## stsrep (Mar 10, 2007)

west99999 said:


> Do you have a genie 2 and internet connection? If not you want be eligible yet. Mine shows out for delivery by end of day.


Yes I do and was a beta tester for the Genie when it was first launched.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

stsrep said:


> They refuse even though I've been invited to test the new box thru contact at DTV.


If you don't meet the criteria for testing (typically one or two service areas), you don't qualify.

The Osprey was in testing for quite a while before AT&T opened it up to the whole subscriber base. Even then, many who acquired the units did so through eBay rather than DIRECTV.

DIRECTV can ill afford another DIRECTV Ready debacle.


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## stsrep (Mar 10, 2007)

harsh said:


> If you don't meet the criteria for testing (typically one or two service areas), you don't qualify.
> 
> The Osprey was in testing for quite a while before AT&T opened it up to the whole subscriber base. Even then, many who acquired the units did so through eBay rather than DIRECTV.
> 
> DIRECTV can ill afford another DIRECTV Ready debacle.


I'm in the Nashville DMA and meet all of the criteria including fiber optic ISP etc.
I only want these new Gemini's to stream DTV 4K and not hardwire additional mini's..
They don't offer too much programming anyway yet but why even step out and manufacture?
I know no truck roll etc to install but what's the bull**** hold up?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

stsrep said:


> I'm in the Nashville DMA and meet all of the criteria including fiber optic ISP etc.


Since you didn't get an invitation, you don't qualify on that requirement.


> I only want these new Gemini's to stream DTV 4K and not hardwire additional mini's..


DIRECTV doesn't stream 4K. It is delivered only via satellite. It remains unclear whether or not the "wireless" reference applies to satellite-delivered content given that this is the first 4K client that has any kind of wireless capability.


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## stsrep (Mar 10, 2007)

Technical confirmed that this will playback 4K and not be hardwired for their 104,105, etc.
Might be a mute point for me now since the YouTube Sunday Ticket announcement but we will see.
Seems like a Directv Fire Stick/Cube since the Google Play store is available to load apps.
I did get an invitation to test but they cannot "find"it.
Did the same to me with free Sunday Ticket Max for this season so I had to jump thru hoops to get it but finally did.
Poor on their behalf.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

harsh said:


> DIRECTV doesn't stream 4K. It is delivered only via satellite. It remains unclear whether or not the "wireless" reference applies to satellite-delivered content given that this is the first 4K client that has any kind of wireless capability.


Yes the 4K will be delivered to the Genie via satellite but then wirelessly from the Genie to the Gemini box. Or wired from the Genie to the Gemini box if you prefer.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

b4pjoe said:


> Yes the 4K will be delivered to the Genie via satellite but then wirelessly from the Genie to the Gemini box.


Will it work using one of the existing WVBs or will it require a newer model?


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

harsh said:


> Will it work using one of the existing WVBs or will it require a newer model?


I'm not sure it even connects to a WVB. In the WIFI setup section it doesn't mention how to connect to it a WVB. It just shows you how to connect to your home WIFI to do software updates.

Set up Gemini device over Wireless | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> DIRECTV doesn't stream 4K. It is delivered only via satellite.


Say what? DirecTV has plenty of 4K VOD. A lot more content then what's delivered via satellite.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> I'm not sure it even connects to a WVB. In the WIFI setup section it doesn't mention how to connect to it a WVB. It just shows you how to connect to your home WIFI to do software updates.
> 
> Set up Gemini device over Wireless | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


There is something missing here... When connecting over coax it wants you to follow the add client procedure like adding a current mini but this mentions nothing about that


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

CraigerM said:


> I'm not sure it even connects to a WVB. In the WIFI setup section it doesn't mention how to connect to it a WVB. It just shows you how to connect to your home WIFI to do software updates.
> 
> Set up Gemini device over Wireless | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


Error code 630 references the WVB specifically.









Error code 630: Unable to Connect | DIRECTV Customer Service & Support


Error 630 displays when your DIRECTV Gemini Device is unable to connect to the Wireless Video Bridge. Learn how to fix it.



www.directv.com





Android Developer Mode not allowed



https://www.directv.com/support/satellite/article/KM1498120/


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Got one hooked up and running in my least used location to start. DECA lights went green immediately, c71 took a couple minutes to go green (4 or 5). It didn’t recognize my internet even though genie 2 is hardwired. Had to connect it wirelessly to get updates. Updates took a good while and it then started looking for my receiver, works same as any Directv client over satellite except I have apps now. Haven’t played with it much yet though. List did come up with all my recordings with no issue and that’s about all I’ve done so far.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

west99999 said:


> Got one hooked up and running in my least used location to start. DECA lights went green immediately, c71 took a couple minutes to go green (4 or 5). It didn’t recognize my internet even though genie 2 is hardwired. Had to connect it wirelessly to get updates. Updates took a good while and it then started looking for my receiver, works same as any Directv client over satellite except I have apps now. Haven’t played with it much yet though. List did come up with all my recordings with no issue and that’s about all I’ve done so far.


Thanks for posting those. The only bad thing about it is having the deca adapter, ethernet cable and micro USB cable. With DTV Stream you would just have the HDMI cable and power cable. Hope the GUI and APPS run fast.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> Thanks for posting those. The only bad thing about it is having the deca adapter, ethernet cable and micro USB cable. With DTV Stream you would just have the HDMI cable and power cable. Hope the GUI and APPS run fast.


Yeah, why does DIRECTV always have to making wiring such a PITA? Box should just have a coax & power input and an hdmi output with a built in deca.

7 connections per box. Lmao...


----------



## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, why does DIRECTV always have to making wiring such a PITA? Box should just have a coax & power input and an hdmi output with a built in deca.
> 
> 7 connections per box. Lmao...


Tbf this would work fine wireless but coax is in place so why not use it? It would then be power and hdmi.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, why does DIRECTV always have to making wiring such a PITA? Box should just have a coax & power input and an hdmi output with a built in deca.
> 
> 7 connections per box. Lmao...


I'm guessing they use ethernet so that the same hardware can also work for Directv Stream. Building in a DECA adds cost and defeats the purpose of sharing the same device across markets since they assume most people will connect wirelessly. What percentage of people will choose to hardwire it when they already are using wireless for many devices in their home?

It isn't just the cost of the hardware but also the patent licensing. Plus the selection of SoCs with ethernet and wireless is probably 20x greater than the selection of SoCs with ethernet, wireless and MoCA.

Nothing requires you to hook it up using a DECA. Whatever home network the Genie is connected to access the internet can connect to the C71 via ethernet - you just need a cat5 running to where the C71 is located. Having cat5 wired to every room is probably more common in newer construction than having coax wired to every room.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> I'm guessing they use ethernet so that the same hardware can also work for Directv Stream. Building in a DECA adds cost and defeats the purpose of sharing the same device across markets since they assume most people will connect wirelessly. What percentage of people will choose to hardwire it when they already are using wireless for many devices in their home?


I have 1Gbps service and a Wifi 6 router and my iPhone 14 can only pull like 600Mbps. I'd generally prefer hardwired. My parents have 200Mbps service and a crappy N router (no idea why lol) and get like 20Mbps or less at the TV. My dad doesn't care about it cuz his picture isn't breaking up. Although, it takes quite a while for something to start playing.



slice1900 said:


> Nothing requires you to hook it up using a DECA. Whatever home network the Genie is connected to access the internet can connect to the C71 via ethernet - you just need a cat5 running to where the C71 is located. Having cat5 wired to every room is probably more common in newer construction than having coax wired to every room.


Coax has been wired to every room since like the 70s-80s. Cat5 mostly started around the early 2000s. My house was built in 2002, and back then the phone lines were cat5, so I can repurpose those, but wiring for network was like a $2500 option.

DirecTV wiring has always been janky. Used to have to run 2 lines to every (twin tuner) receiver. Then there was the B-band converter phase. Then they finally fixed it with SWM. AM21 wiring is janky. Daisy chained Power + USB + OTA. They should have just made it a dongle if they wanted to remove it from the DVR to save a few pennies. The LCC sucks though, so I'm still using my AM21.

I don't have a cat5 line at my entertainment center, so I use wifi there, but I go through an AC bridge though to speed things up, although I rarely stream, so...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

west99999 said:


> Tbf this would work fine wireless but coax is in place so why not use it?


Because it puts put a load on the MoCA network that could otherwise be avoided when streaming non-satellite content and doing other than TV stuff with apps?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> I'm guessing they use ethernet so that the same hardware can also work for Directv Stream.


Judging by the model number that appears in the System Info screens, this IS the DIRECTV STREAM Device (C71KW-400).

I'm not sure we've reached the final answer in terms of what is required versus what is optional.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

harsh said:


> Because it puts put a load on the MoCA network that could otherwise be avoided when streaming non-satellite content and doing other than TV stuff with apps?


I dont have a problem with my moca network being overloaded lol. The same could be said about wireless congestion or load on wireless network if using wireless but I also don’t have issues with that network.


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

west99999 said:


> Tbf this would work fine wireless but coax is in place so why not use it? It would then be power and hdmi.


Have you tried seeing if it would work just plugging the ethernet cable from the Gemini box straight into your router instead of using the DECA? If wireless works just through your local network it seems wired should also.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> Have you tried seeing if it would work just plugging the ethernet cable from the Gemini box straight into your router instead of using the DECA? If wireless works just through your local network it seems wired should also.


Yeh I was wondering this also


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

west99999 said:


> I dont have a problem with my moca network being overloaded lol.


Your needs may not be representative of everyone else's needs.


> The same could be said about wireless congestion or load on wireless network if using wireless but I also don’t have issues with that network.


The difference is that you can upgrade your Wi-Fi network if needed but the same can't be said of your DIRECTV MoCA network. With near "gig speed" broadband becoming commonplace, there's a potential to swamp the MoCA network with content that doesn't need to be there.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> Because it puts put a load on the MoCA network that could otherwise be avoided when streaming non-satellite content and doing other than TV stuff with apps?


What version of MoCA does DirecTV use? What's the bandwidth?


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> Your needs may not be representative of everyone else's needs.
> 
> The difference is that you can upgrade your Wi-Fi network if needed but the same can't be said of your DIRECTV MoCA network. With near "gig speed" broadband becoming commonplace, there's a potential to swamp the MoCA network with content that doesn't need to be there.


How do you upgrade the Wifi in your DirecTV receiver? What version of Wifi does it have? Does it have a 1Gbps ethernet port? or are they still cheaping out with a 100Mbps?


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

SledgeHammer said:


> How do you upgrade the Wifi in your DirecTV receiver? What version of Wifi does it have? Does it have a 1Gbps ethernet port? or are they still cheaping out with a 100Mbps?


 my genie 2 is hardwired


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## b4pjoe (Nov 20, 2010)

SledgeHammer said:


> How do you upgrade the Wifi in your DirecTV receiver? What version of Wifi does it have? Does it have a 1Gbps ethernet port? or are they still cheaping out with a 100Mbps?


HS17 has 802.11n and a gigabit ethernet port. The HR54 has 100 mbps ethernet port. C71 has 100 mbps etherent port.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

west99999 said:


> my genie 2 is hardwired


They finally slapped a 1Gbps port on it? NICE.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

b4pjoe said:


> HS17 has 802.11n and a gigabit ethernet port. The HR54 has 100 mbps ethernet port. C71 has 100 mbps etherent port.


If it has a gigabit port, but crappy wifi, then you'd be best off hard wired, but if that's not an option, then a Wifi5 or Wifi6 bridge FTW.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> What version of MoCA does DirecTV use? What's the bandwidth?


As I understand it, there are two implementations that DIRECTV uses:

The version that the HR54 and earlier use MoCA 1.1 with an effective throughput of 100Mbps (half duplex).

The HS17 uses MoCA 2.0 with additional channel bonding and supposedly offers 175Mbps (half duplex) bandwidth.

From what I can gather, the old scheme and the new scheme aren't interoperable as they use overlapping frequencies in the MoCA E band.

There are DECA II adapters that can bring MoCA 2.0 speeds to older receivers but in a situation with so many receivers that feature 100Mbps Ethernet, that probably becomes messy.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SledgeHammer said:


> How do you upgrade the Wifi in your DirecTV receiver?


Wi-Fi upgrades today are typically a matter of adding additional RF bands for different devices to spread out across. While you can't upgrade the DIRECTV device itself, you can configure your other equipment to stay out of its way.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

SledgeHammer said:


> What version of MoCA does DirecTV use? What's the bandwidth?



Realistically it doesn't matter. HD channels average 6.5 Mbps, 4K are somewhere between 20 and 30 on Directv (not sure what they are using there now) and DECA 1.0 / MoCA 1.1 delivers up to 175 Mbps.

Unless the 4K channels are closer to 30 Mbps than 20, you couldn't max it out with 7 active clients even if they allowed all 7 to be 4K (which as we all know they do not)

Genie 2 and all C61 and newer clients use MoCA 2.0 which delivers 400 Mbps versus the 175 Mbps of MoCA 1.1. Having a MoCA 1.1 device in a segment forces the whole network segment to run at 1.1 speeds, but for people who have a Genie 2 that shouldn't be an issue unless they have an old client from a previous Genie 1 install still in use.

I don't think DECA throughput is ever going to be a limitation. If it is, it is because there's something wrong with the wiring that is killing the speed - that's its real Achille's heel. One bad coax connector, damaged cable or even an unterminated port in rare cases, can cause signal problems that force devices to operate at reduced speeds. Whereas with ethernet every port on a switch is independent so if one is connected to something that has a janky connector or whatever it doesn't hurt the performance of the rest.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> There are DECA II adapters that can bring MoCA 2.0 speeds to older receivers but in a situation with so many receivers that feature 100Mbps Ethernet, that probably becomes messy.


The 100 Mbps ethernet ports don't matter. DECA is always implemented as a bridge, so connecting a 100 Mbps ethernet to the nominal 175 Mbps DECA segment via an adapter does not cause DECA to run at 100 Mbps anymore than plugging a 100 Mbps device in a 1 Gbps ethernet switch causes the other devices on the switch to operate at 100 Mbps.

It makes perfect sense for clients to have a 100 Mbps port, because they will never ever use more than a fraction of that bandwidth. Fitting them with a 1 Gbps ethernet port would be like installing a 50A breaker on a circuit you are connecting to a phone charger.

Someday they will get 1 Gbps ethernet ports - when those become cheaper due to OEMs no longer making 100 Mbps ethernet PHYs except via special order.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Realistically it doesn't matter. HD channels average 6.5 Mbps, 4K are somewhere between 20 and 30 on Directv (not sure what they are using there now) and DECA 1.0 / MoCA 1.1 delivers up to 175 Mbps.


Realistically, we must not confuse what DIRECTV chose to do with what MoCA might be able to do. DECA I is capable of around 100Mbps while DECA II is good for 175Mbps (both half-duplex). Radio bitrates aren't the same as effective data transmission rates (i.e. 36MHz Ka isn't 50% faster than 24MHz Ku).

This is important in a half-duplex system as there can be exactly one conversation going on at any one time and every device must share one channel through a negotiation process.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> The 100 Mbps ethernet ports don't matter.


Are you sure?

Because MoCA is a half-duplex protocol, the throughput is limited to whatever the currently active devices (the server and the client) support. Buffering in the DECA adapter may help but it won't fix everything. There can be no other communications going on while the slower devices are being served (or serving).


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> Realistically, we must not confuse what DIRECTV chose to do with what MoCA might be able to do. DECA I is capable of around 100Mbps while DECA II is good for 175Mbps (both half-duplex). Radio bitrates aren't the same as effective data transmission rates (i.e. 36MHz Ka isn't 50% faster than 24MHz Ku).
> 
> This is important in a half-duplex system as there can be exactly one conversation going on at any one time and every device must share one channel through a negotiation process.



DECA is MoCA you complete idiot! If I throw a stick, will you chase it and quit bothering us?


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

slice1900 said:


> DECA is MoCA you complete idiot! If I throw a stick, will you chase it and quit bothering us?


That wouldn't work. He's like a puppy. First you have to show him the stick. Then you can throw it.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> That wouldn't work. He's like a puppy. First you have to show him the stick. Then you can throw it.


Would he? Or would he spend 5 pages arguing about the characteristics of the stick? I bet the latter.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Saw this on the unofficial DTV Reddit page:

(1) DirecTv Gemini ? : DirecTV (reddit.com)

"Only customers who currently have genie 2. In January a lot of markets go live. After April HR44/54 customers will be able to get them."


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

harsh said:


> Realistically, we must not confuse what DIRECTV chose to do with what MoCA might be able to do. DECA I is capable of around 100Mbps while DECA II is good for 175Mbps (both half-duplex). Radio bitrates aren't the same as effective data transmission rates (i.e. 36MHz Ka isn't 50% faster than 24MHz Ku).
> 
> This is important in a half-duplex system as there can be exactly one conversation going on at any one time and every device must share one channel through a negotiation process.


Of course, the link in your post from years ago shows that the speed is 400Mbps, not 175Mbps.




harsh said:


> The MoCA Alliance has formally announced the MoCA 2.0 standard today:
> 
> News Releases :: SMC Networks Joins MoCA
> 
> Key elements are significantly higher data rates, lower error rates and power-saving sleep modes.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> While this information originated from *CES 2011*....I wanted to share this specifically to the DirecTV forum readers. It pertains to the latest information provided from *Entropic* (the key *DirecTV* partner behind SWiM and DECA).
> 
> *MoCA 2.0* (Multimedia Over Coax Alliance) will be the latest high speed home network hardware & software framework for DirecTV HD video/audio distribution.
> 
> ...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> DECA is MoCA you complete idiot! If I throw a stick, will you chase it and quit bothering us?


Yet DIRECTV offers two different implementations of MoCA. Don't call me an idiot for citing a very real difference that you claim doesn't exist.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

David Ortiz said:


> Of course, the link in your post from years ago shows that the speed is 400Mbps, not 175Mbps.


There are multiple data rates mentioned. That's why I used the term "effective" in my post. The PHA PHY bitrate and the effective TCP/IP data transfer rate are two different metrics. The TCP/IP rate is the one that means something.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

harsh said:


> There are multiple data rates mentioned. That's why I used the term "effective" in my post. The PHA bitrate and the effective TCP/IP data transfer rate are two different metrics. The TCP/IP rate is the one that means something.


That's just you once again poorly blurring reality / trolling / padding your post count. Nobody says they have a 980Mbps ethernet port.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

harsh said:


> Yet DIRECTV offers two different implementations of MoCA. Don't call me an idiot for citing a very real difference that you claim doesn't exist.


Yes, one is 175 Mbps and the other is 400 Mbps. You knowingly provided incorrect info on the speeds because you always want to make Directv look bad for some reason.

Do you troll Dish forums with FUD too, or are you lying about their stuff to cast it in a more positive light than it really is?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Yes, one is 175 Mbps and the other is 400 Mbps.


Those are the PHA PHY rates. The claimed data transfer rates are closer to 100Mbps and 175Mbps. To suggest otherwise is misleading at best.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Before I did know PHY eg physical rates ... what the "PHA" means ? 🤷‍♂️


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> Before I did know PHY eg physical rates ... what the "PHA" means ? 🤷‍♂️


I meant PHY rates. My bad.

This Netgear page explains the differences as well as that the transfer speeds are typically much less (much less than half in the case of 802.11n) than the PHY rates:








Link Rate and Transfer Speed


Link Rate and Transfer Speed




kb.netgear.com




Because we're talking about transferring data across MoCA network, citing PHY rates is misleading. What is important is the transfer speeds as that's what relates to the video bitrate.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

harsh said:


> I meant PHY rates. My bad.
> 
> This Netgear page explains the differences as well as that the transfer speeds are typically much less (much less than half in the case of 802.11n) than the PHY rates:
> 
> ...


Nobody was citing PHY rates.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

David Ortiz said:


> Nobody was citing PHY rates.


Sixto is citing PHY rates.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

harsh said:


> Sixto is citing PHY rates.


AFAIK, slice1900 is not Sixto.


slice1900 said:


> Yes, one is 175 Mbps and the other is 400 Mbps. You knowingly provided incorrect info on the speeds because you always want to make Directv look bad for some reason.
> 
> Do you troll Dish forums with FUD too, or are you lying about their stuff to cast it in a more positive light than it really is?





harsh said:


> Those are the PHA rates. The claimed data transfer rates are closer to 100Mbps and 175Mbps. To suggest otherwise is misleading at best.


MoCA 1.1 is 175Mbps, with a 275Mbps PHY rate.
MoCA 2.0 is 400Mbps, with a 700Mbps PHY rate.

It's best to know the facts before accusing others of "misleading".


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Ok ... Stay on topic (DIRECTV new receiver).
We are done with the personal bickering.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Just saw this on the FCC website. Not sure if this is for DTV or maybe Dish?

Humax 4K Satellite Receiver Set-Top Box H26K FCC ID O6ZH26K


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> Just saw this on the FCC website. Not sure if this is for DTV or maybe Dish?
> 
> Humax 4K Satellite Receiver Set-Top Box H26K FCC ID O6ZH26K


Pretty sure we discussed that a ways back and seem to believe it’s a commercial product


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

compnurd said:


> Pretty sure we discussed that a ways back and seem to believe it’s a commercial product


Oh, ok sorry about that.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

skinnyJM said:


> I apologize if this has been mentioned already, but saw this H26K-500 on DirecTV Firmware Watcher
> View attachment 32565
> 
> 
> I don't remember reading anything about it.


C71KW-500 now showing on RedH.


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

David Ortiz said:


> C71KW-500 now showing on RedH.


It's a Streaming D*TV Receiver that works with a Genie and contains Apps


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

WestDC said:


> It's a Streaming D*TV Receiver that works with a Genie and contains Apps


Presumably it is the new DIRECTV Gemini client and the first wireless 4K DIRECTV client, currently in testing.


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

David Ortiz said:


> Presumably it is the new DIRECTV Gemini client and the first wireless 4K DIRECTV client, currently in testing.


yes, that too


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

WestDC said:


> yes, that too


It is not a receiver, just a client. It also can be wired or wireless, but whether or not that is limited to coax/DECA or the Wireless Video Bridge is unclear.


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