# HR20 CLOCK



## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

With all the advanced technology in the world, why can't D* figure out a firmware patch to make the HR20 start recording at the correct time? My shows are always cut off at the beginning. I'm no rocket scientist but this has got to be among the easier things to program, right? I never had this problem with the HR10-250. I can't understand why this problem persists with the HR20?

I know it's not that difficult to tell it to start recording 1 minute early but I'm not the only person using the device at home (that was a PC way of saying that my girlfriend won't figure out the workaround as easily as I could....)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Well the HR10-250 wasn't perfect with it's implementation either... but to give you some of the ideas, why this in fact rocket science.

For a local HD network:

1) Local Affiliate starts to broadcast at a given time (usually at the exact moment the show is "scheduled to start"
2) Local affiliate encodes in their station, and broadcasts out.
3) DirecTV Receives the OTA signal... and decodes
4) DirecTV re-encodes the signal to MPEG-4
5) DirecTV transfers it from their reception/encoding station, to the DirecTV headend
6) It comes into the head end, that gets mapped and sent back out via the DirecTV network...
7) Your system receives the transmission.

Okay... there are a few more steps in there.... but all of that takes time.... and it isn't the same amount of time for each network.

Now are not talkng minutes here... but seconds...

So... can you figure out how to build a clock... that can hall the offsets of the several thousand networks out in DirecTV's data stream?

What may seem "easy" on the surface... may in fact be very complex....

The "clock" in the unit may in fact be correct... but the delays (noted above), plus anything else local... any delay in the unit recognizing a clock change (an event), ect... all meshes together.

-------------

This doesn't even account for the fact that shows don't actually start/stop on the exact clock time either in most cases...

-------

So how bad is the clock off on your HR20?


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## 69hokie (Sep 23, 2006)

JDB30 said:


> With all the advanced technology in the world, why can't D* figure out a firmware patch to make the HR20 start recording at the correct time? My shows are always cut off at the beginning. I'm no rocket scientist but this has got to be among the easier things to program, right? I never had this problem with the HR10-250. I can't understand why this problem persists with the HR20?
> 
> I know it's not that difficult to tell it to start recording 1 minute early but I'm not the only person using the device at home (that was a PC way of saying that my girlfriend won't figure out the workaround as easily as I could....)


Why not change your default recording options to accomodate the 1 minute early start on all recordings and your girlfriend won't have to worry about a work around....my wife doesn't deal with work arounds either!!


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

JDB,

You may want to hit the Rewind button as soon as you start watching a recorded show. For some reason the HR20 ain't so good at starting playback at the beginning of a show. I know it's a bit inconvenient, but it's the HR20 thing to do.


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## SeattleSteve (Oct 5, 2007)

Earl, please do not get so defensive. We're not attacking D* or you.

In fact, something did significantly change within the last month, at least for me. I record 40-50 programs a week, and have used a D* DVR for 5 years. I can only think of 1 or 2 times in those years when it started recording after a show had begun. I always got the last few seconds of the closing credits of the previous show, then a couple commercials, then the new show would begin.

That has changed in the last month, at least for me. Now programs consistently starts after the new program has begun. I can't tell how far into the program because it wasn't recorded, but it seems like 30 seconds to a minute.

I did move from the H10-250 to the HR20 about 3 weeks ago. So it appears that might be the problem, but I cannot say for sure. It almost seems like D* has advanced their clock by a minute.

If there were a way to manually set back the clock on my HR20 by a minute I think my recordings would be perfect.

So my question is, is there a problem with the HR20, or did D* change their clock by a minute, and it coincided with my switching from the HR10-250 to the HR20-100?

Thanks!
Steve


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## celticpride (Sep 6, 2006)

god help us when they do the time change this FALL! i also have this problem, hopefully we can get someone to fix this problem.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

I was in front of my HR20 the other day when it had two shows to record at 8:00. I don't recall what I was doing at the time, but I did have the info display up and noticed the time changed to 8:00, yet it was several seconds (~30?) before the channel changed and recording started. Could these issues simply be that the HR20 doesn't start recording at 8:00:00 but rather something more like 8:00:30-8:00:45?


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## jerry3b (Jan 25, 2007)

I have been saying this for weeks!! Everyone tells me start it a minute early, the networks are starting shows at 1 minute later. So the best I can suggest do a soft reset from your remote ever week. Always nice to have all these features if they only worked the way they should.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

SeattleSteve said:


> Earl, please do not get so defensive. We're not attacking D* or you.


Why does everyone think I am being defensive?

Or that I am taking everything as an attack (and thanks to the few of you that emailed it).

The poster put in there, that he thought it was something "easy".
And Just posted, that it is not so easy... when you look at the bigger picture.
And for the most part... it was in jest, but serious enough that it is not like setting your "watch" here...

Trust me... it will be so ultimately clear when I think I am being attacked...
As it has happened before, and those that have seen my replies... clearly understand when I am on the offensive, after being attacked...


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

69hokie said:


> Why not change your default recording options to accomodate the 1 minute early start on all recordings and your girlfriend won't have to worry about a work around....my wife doesn't deal with work arounds either!!


Is there a way to do this globally? If so, I haven't seen it.


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

Ken S said:


> JDB,
> 
> You may want to hit the Rewind button as soon as you start watching a recorded show. For some reason the HR20 ain't so good at starting playback at the beginning of a show. I know it's a bit inconvenient, but it's the HR20 thing to do.


Tried that. It's definitely starting the recordings late.


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well the HR10-250 wasn't perfect with it's implementation either... but to give you some of the ideas, why this in fact rocket science.
> 
> For a local HD network:
> 
> ...


OK, look, I didn't mean to offend you of all people. I get that the transcoding causes a delay. However, there are 3 points I'd like to make regarding what you just wrote and I look forward to your response and thank you in advance for it:

1) When I'm watching the same channel on my H10 or even H20 in another room (i have an open floor plan), I can hear the delay on the HR20 is only a second or two, which only accounts for a small portion of the recording delays that I am consistently getting on the HR20

2) If the transcoding is what's causing the delay, why does it still cut off the recordings on purely SD non-local channels (e.g. MSNBC) where there is no OTA signal or conversion from MPEG2 to MPEG 4?

3) Why didn't this problem exist with the HR10-250?

As other users are noticing the same problems, especially in comparison to previous D* DVR units, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask whether there might be a design issue. Perhaps a work around would to be to offer a preference setting that allows the user to start ALL recordings early in a user-specified amount (if this already exists, I'd appreciate knowing).


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

1) You didn't "offend" any of us...

2) There is "still" delays... but still it should not be minutes... or even half of minutes... seconds...

3) As for why it works else where... and not here... good question... and one none of us have an answer for...



JDB30 said:


> OK, look, I didn't mean to offend you of all people. I get that the transcoding causes a delay. However, there are 3 points I'd like to make regarding what you just wrote and I look forward to your response and thank you in advance for it:
> 
> 1) When I'm watching the same channel on my H10 or even H20 in another room (i have an open floor plan), I can hear the delay on the HR20 is only a second or two, which only accounts for a small portion of the recording delays that I am consistently getting on the HR20
> 
> ...


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## Gotchaa (Jan 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well the HR10-250 wasn't perfect with it's implementation either... but to give you some of the ideas, why this in fact rocket science.
> 
> For a local HD network:
> 
> ...


Here is the solution: Record the OTA channel and your chances are better to get the full program (well, not really) and a better picture (well, not in all cases)


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## PurpleMonk (Aug 3, 2007)

Coincidentally, I was experimenting with this tonight...

The clock on my HR-20 is 10 - 15 seconds slow.

My recording starts anywhere from on time (less than a second - close enough) to 15 seconds late *according to the time on the HR-20*. That can lead to a net loss of 30 seconds.

Given that networks have been known to start shows early and the HR-20 can start recording 30 seconds late it is easy to see that even by starting to record a minute early you aren't guaranteed to get the start of a show.

I haven't been able to find a pattern behind how late a program starts (SD, HD (MPEG 2 or 4) and OTA).

My times are based off of my computer's time. NIST says it is accurate within .2 seconds, so that is good enough for me.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

The HR10 definitely starts recording shows later than the HR20. Blaming the networks, the encoding process, whatever else just doesn't fly in my book since the HR10 does it right (usually).


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## bt-rtp (Dec 30, 2005)

I would think that since these are "satellite" receivers that they would get their time data from the network and be very accurate. Like GPS accurate...

The end result being that the recording would start on time and before the program actually starts to be received at the receiver from DirecTV. This due to the delay from collection, grooming and distribution that Earl described in this thread.


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## elove (Aug 17, 2007)

I agree the clock is off by at least a minute. Here is my situation:

I have had the HR20 since Aug 17. I also have the HR10-250 DirectvHD Tivo.
The only complaint I have is the recordings start 30 seconds to 1 minute into the show. You miss a lot of the storyline information here. 

I did a test on both recorders. Both were scheduled to record Bionic Women, the HR10-250 record light came on first, then I counted to see how long it took for the HR20 recording light to come on. I counted to about 20 before it came on.

So if Directv can fix the HR20 clock, I will be a happy camper.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

PurpleMonk said:


> Coincidentally, I was experimenting with this tonight...
> 
> The clock on my HR-20 is 10 - 15 seconds slow.


My question would be, do others in Tucson have the same problem? If so, it's not "your" HR20, it's the network. If not, then maybe it is time for a replacement.


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## HarryG (Jul 9, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> My question would be, do others in Tucson have the same problem? If so, it's not "your" HR20, it's the network. If not, then maybe it is time for a replacement.


This is not something new. I have had this "clock problem" since I replaced my HR10-250 DVR's four months ago. Every recorded program even those with hard specific network start times (OTA and DirecTv) begin recording atleast 5-7 seconds late. It is easy to replecate. I can be watching the channel live and usually about 5-10 seconds later the actual recording process begins. If you are displaying the prgram description at the time of the broadcast, you will notice that the clock actually changes to the correct time (ie. from 6:29 to 6:30) after the broadcast has begun. NBC Nightly News has a hard network start time at 6:30PM eastern.
The DVR does record the entire scheduled thirty minutes giving me a 10-15 second bleed over into the next show.

This clock problem happens on both of my HR20's (-100 and -700). I have done numerous reboots on both units, and nothing resolves this problem.

I don't hold out alot of hope that this problem is being addressed and resolved. 
4+ months is a long time to wait for some type of software to more accurately synchronize the internal clock.


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## 69hokie (Sep 23, 2006)

JDB30 said:


> Is there a way to do this globally? If so, I haven't seen it.


The menu for record defaults is kind of hidden. Call up menu>settings>scheduler>to do list. Select one of the items you have scheduled for recording and press select. Select "Rec. Once". You should be at a screen that would allow you to change your recording settings for the recording you previously selected. At this point, press menu...looking down the list, you will see a new item called "Record Defaults"...select it. You will have a list of Episode Type,Keep at Most,Keep Until,Start, and Stop. Select the item you wish to change the default setting on and then select the new default setting that you want. When you select the new default, the screen will automatically go back to the Record Once selection, and you will have to press the menu button again if you want to change other defaults. Hope this helps.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...Okay... there are a few more steps in there.... but all of that takes time.... and it isn't the same amount of time for each network.
> 
> Now are not talkng minutes here... but seconds...


All of these added delays would make the station be behind the HR20, not in front of it.

Say the delay through the station is 5 seconds.

You start your recording when the atomic clock says 9:00:00.

You would get the last 5 seconds of the 8 o'clock program.

Instead we are missing typically the first 15 to 30 seconds of every program on every channel. That is the opposite problem. 

I have two atomic clocks in the room with the HR20's. We also have 3 cell phones tied to the atomic clocks through their network. All are dead on.

The two HR20's are not even in agreement as to what time it is. Ever.

The HR20's are always each in there own time zones later than the 5 references, randowmly between 10 and 60 second late.

Even if we could reset our HR20 clocks it would not help because their clocksets seem to be so erradic.

Is there any other solution DIRECTV could use?

- Craig


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> All of these added delays would make the station be behind the HR20, not in front of it.
> 
> Say the delay through the station is 5 seconds.
> 
> ...


Craig,

There must be other ways of doing it because this isn't a problem on machines made by other manufacturers.


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## diagoro (Aug 17, 2006)

Could the issue be a memory issue, perhaps the processor taking a few extra seconds to extract and complete the commands?


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

If this hasn't already been done, could those of you with both an active HR20 & HR10-250 please post recording "delay" times between the two units on the following:

1) Channel 356 (and SD non-OTA channel)
2) An HD local network (via D*, not antenna)
3) An HD local network (OTA via antenna)
4) Channel 70 (an MPEG 2 HD Channel)
5) Channel 255 (an MPEG 4 HD Channel)

Let's get some data for Earl and others to review. Maybe it will help?


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## BruceS (Sep 23, 2006)

I don't seem to having any problems with the HR20 starting recordings late, but I just thought of a possible solution.

I have mine connected via the Internet.

I am not sure about the HR20, but I suspect it connects more often via the Internet then when it only has a phone connection.

If this is true and your HR20 has a clock that loses time over the course of a day, this may be why I have no problems since I believe the clock is reset each time it connects.

I could easily be wrong about this, since I am basing my assumptions about the clock on my Tivo boxes, which do reset the clock on each connection.

The HR20 and all other DVRs are computers with software that allows them to record programs. I have certainly had various computers over the years that did not keep accurate time with their internal clocks.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well the HR10-250 wasn't perfect with it's implementation either... but to give you some of the ideas, why this in fact rocket science...


All good reasons why the HR20 would start recording _early_, but why does it start LATE? At least for boxes on the network, *ntp* would seem a possibility. That's what XP does.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

69hokie said:
 

> Why not change your default recording options to accomodate the 1 minute early start on all recordings and your girlfriend won't have to worry about a work around....my wife doesn't deal with work arounds either!!


Because that makes conflicts maximally likely.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Gotchaa said:


> Here is the solution: Record the OTA channel and your chances are better to get the full program (well, not really) and a better picture (well, not in all cases)


No. Worse actually. The HR20 is late. The network delays HELP.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Craig,
> 
> There must be other ways of doing it because this isn't a problem on machines made by other manufacturers.


Apparently the time comes in from the satellite, but somehow there is no good estimate of the delay of that info through the D* uplink, and/or where the packet gets put in the data stream, so the TIME STAMP gets to the HR20s at unpredictable times. Again, use *ntp* over ethernet, or even the phone line.


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

kcmurphy88 said:


> Apparently the time comes in from the satellite, but somehow there is no good estimate of the delay of that info through the D* uplink, and/or where the packet gets put in the data stream, so the TIME STAMP gets to the HR20s at unpredictable times. Again, use *ntp* over ethernet, or even the phone line.


That's a great way to solve it if the cause of the problem is the instability of the internal clock---just have the ethernet pull the time stamp. Earl---can you suggest this as a fix?


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## jayerndl (Aug 4, 2007)

I haven't spent a lot of time trying to figure out exactly what is going on but I can say this. I have an HR20-700 (for about 5 weeks), an HR10-250 and (2) SD Directivos and have noticed that on several(many) occasions the shows recorded on the HR20 are missing the last 15-30 seconds while the shows recorded on the the Directivos have the entire show. I am not using any paddding on either platform. I know that once in a while this can happen on any platform because the content providor goes over the alotted time (HBO seems especially guilty of this) I am convinced however that it is happening with much more frequency on the HR20 than with the tivos. I shall try to conduct some simple tests to record identical shows with multiple DVRs and see if I can find a pattern. I agree with other posters - starting and stopping recording at the correct time shouldn't be that difficult because it is already beeing done by directivos. 

Jay


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

So, if I select the start 1 minute early default, I assuem that is set in stone and it will not record due to conflicts, or is a soft pad like the old Dishplayer that will go away if the tuner i sneeded in teh next time slot?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

jayerndl said:


> I haven't spent a lot of time trying to figure out exactly what is going on but I can say this. I have an HR20-700 (for about 5 weeks), an HR10-250 and (2) SD Directivos and have noticed that on several(many) occasions the shows recorded on the HR20 are missing the last 15-30 seconds while the shows recorded on the the Directivos have the entire show. I am not using any paddding on either platform. I know that once in a while this can happen on any platform because the content providor goes over the alotted time (HBO seems especially guilty of this) I am convinced however that it is happening with much more frequency on the HR20 than with the tivos. I shall try to conduct some simple tests to record identical shows with multiple DVRs and see if I can find a pattern. I agree with other posters - starting and stopping recording at the correct time shouldn't be that difficult because it is already beeing done by directivos.
> 
> Jay


This problem has been noted here for months. There are still some that will stick their head in the sand and blame it on the networks, solar eclipse, satellite latency, etc. It's the same kind of excuse making I've seen for months on the missed recordings issues.

For whatever reason the HR20-700 tends to start recording late and end early. The same problem doesn't seem to exist, at least to the same extent, with Tivo based units.

Hopefully, this means that whatever Tivo did to ensure recording a full show can be figured out and duplicated by the folks working on the HR20.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Ken S said:


> This problem has been noted here for months. There are still some that will stick their head in the sand and blame it on the networks, solar eclipse, satellite latency, etc. It's the same kind of excuse making I've seen for months on the missed recordings issues.
> 
> For whatever reason the HR20-700 tends to start recording late and end early. The same problem doesn't seem to exist, at least to the same extent, with Tivo based units.
> 
> Hopefully, this means that whatever Tivo did to ensure recording a full show can be figured out and duplicated by the folks working on the HR20.


Well, to add a different data point, I don't see the problem any more or less than I did with my Tivo-based units. Whether it is my local market and the channels I tend to record from, I don't know. But it happens extremely rarely for me, and no more so than it did with Tivos, Replays, or UltimateTVs.

Not to minimize the frustration of those who do regularly see the problem.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bwaldron,

I can understand that. It doesn't happen on every show I record either. I guess sometimes it gets frustrating when problems are reported over and over for months and there seems to be reluctance by some to say yes...that appears to be a problem.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Ken S said:


> bwaldron,
> 
> I can understand that. It doesn't happen on every show I record either. I guess sometimes it gets frustrating when problems are reported over and over for months and there seems to be reluctance by some to say yes...that appears to be a problem.


Yeah, I get that, absolutely.


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## keith_benedict (Jan 12, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well the HR10-250 wasn't perfect with it's implementation either... but to give you some of the ideas, why this in fact rocket science.
> 
> For a local HD network:
> 
> ...


Every program, regardless of the network, starts late.


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## NorfolkBruh (Jun 9, 2007)

Dearest Beloved King of All Our Satellite Questions Earl (No really... You are far more helpful then most D* reps... CSR, Tech Level, Supervisor Level, Office of the CEO even!)

Your response below to the original poster is as you usually post and that is the reason some have suggested you OVERLY defend DirecTV with respect to this box.

Before posting I manually set to record Young and the Restless (OTA-HD), Bold and the Beautiful (OTA-HD), Dr. Phil (OTA-SD), Law & Order (TNTHD-Chan 75), I Want That (FINE-Chan 232-SD).

I recorded them on both my HR10 and my HR20-700. I do NOT know if the shows started on time based on atomic clock time. I do know that EVERY SINGLE SHOW (SD, HD, OTA, and Sat based) recorded on both units.

I DO KNOW every recording on the HR10 started and I either caught the last few seconds of the previous show OR caught the opening lines of the recorded show.

I DO KNOW every single solitary recording on the HR20-700 started 7-18 seconds AFTER the HR10 shows.

The cable runs for both units are approx 62 feet from the multi-switch (TV room downstairs [HR20] and MBedroom over the TV room [HR10]). Both units are on UPS' purchased at the same time but more important, the batteries were both changed in the UPS' 4 months ago. Both are connected via HDMI. Native is OFF on the HR20-700 and it is set to 720p. The HR10-250 is set at 720p. In fact, the set up is identical for both units except the HR20 is connected to a Sammy HL-P5085W (DLP) and the HR10 is connected to Olevia Syntax 30" (LCD).

There are lots of issues I have with the HR20. From the Grey's Anatomy fiasco (well other issues before then) to this time difference issues and the response is USUALLY an explanation of the sophistication of the HR20 vs the HR10 but when the signals are identical, can be replicated, and the HR20 fails to measure up to the simple DVR recording it was designed to do then it is apparently a problem with the DVR and not the signal providers.

We agree with the complexity of the data stream interpolation you describe but the bottom line for many of us (well some of us at least!) is same signal, same data, same process UNTIL IT HITS THE HR10 & HR20 and BAM! Things go off kilter.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Well the HR10-250 wasn't perfect with it's implementation either... but to give you some of the ideas, why this in fact rocket science.
> 
> For a local HD network:
> 
> ...


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## Gotchaa (Jan 25, 2006)

kcmurphy88 said:


> No. Worse actually. The HR20 is late. The network delays HELP.


Clock drift on HR20's must vary, I have OTA recording for all the networks, NBC got cut off at the end of the Office once so far..


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Gotchaa said:


> Clock drift on HR20's must vary, I have OTA recording for all the networks, NBC got cut off at the end of the Office once so far..


Are we talking about clock _drift_? I truly hope we aren't. Most comm devices behave poorly with crystals so far off that you notice more than a few seconds of clock drift over a day. I'd hope that the clock is updated at least that frequently.

I think we are rather talking about some uncertainty in when the updated system time is written to the HR20's real-time clock. Clearly an update does happen, or some devices would get many minutes off.

Hard to debug from the outside, but since this wasn't an issue with the HR10 (or at least not with MY HR10), I'd put the blame on software latencies in the HR20.


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## irie4ja (Oct 20, 2006)

http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Central/d/-6/java


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

There are a couple of time signals in the DirecTV data stream and the ones I know of are extremely accurate. The uplink / downlink times are known factors.

I don't know if the continual HR-20 time problems are hardware or software based, but it is the problem of the HR-20.

If you compare a valid time source to the HR-20 you can easily see that the HR-20 is not consistant with time calculations. I have several HR-20's and have seen variations of up to 12 seconds on a unit in the same day! 

As I said, extremely accurate time data is in the data stream, but for whatever reason the HR-20 does not take advantage of the available data... or at least doesn't do it properly.


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## rotten wotton (Jun 30, 2007)

Has anyone tried to record shows back to back on the same channel to see what happens? I too have had the same problems with the late starts on the hr20 with no late starts on the sd tivo I have.


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## calidelphia (Feb 17, 2007)

I've noticed this before but never paid too much attention.

I tested this with my R10 and found a 6 sec difference. 

Not much but still annoying.


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## mrshermanoaks (Aug 27, 2006)

I see two issues:

1. The HR20 starts recording late, a lot. My Replays start recording on time.
2. The HR20 starts playback as much as 30 seconds after the start of the program.

longtime problems, no solution in sight.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

I just got the HR20 set up and already my first couple of programs started later than they used to with the HR10-250.


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## elove (Aug 17, 2007)

I have the same issue with the clock being off. 

I have had the HR20 since Aug 17. I also have the HR10-250 DirectvHD Tivo.
The only complaint I have is the recordings start 10-30 seconds into the show. You miss a lot of the storyline information here. 

I recorded the Bionic Women on both. The HR10-250 record light came on first, then I counted to see how long it took for the HR20 recording light to come on. I counted to about 20 before it came on.

So if Directv can fix the HR20 clock, I will be a happy camper. Can't this be fixed with a software update.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

I have been monitoring the HR20 timing issues for several months; I check out all the new software releases with the same set of tests. At the beginning of 2007 the HR20 was very poor at starting/finishing the recordings at the correct time, but there has been a significant improvement. All my timings are stop-watch and I do not see anything like the long time discrepancies others are reporting. I have an HR20-100, an HR20-700, and an SD TiVo to use as my baseline.
First, the displayed clock. (I am not convinced, by the way, that the HR20 uses the displayed clock for anything, since in the early days I could sometimes get wide discrepancies between the clock and atomic time but these discrepancies were not reflected in the record times). My SD TiVo clock runs about 3-4 seconds slow compared with my atomic clock. It has been consistent for the last nine months. My HR20-700 runs about 5 seconds slow, and my HR20-100 about two seconds fast.
I recorded six different programs, all on the local network channels, in SD on the TiVo, and in HD using both MPEG-4 HD locals and MPEG-2 OTA locals, on each HR20, so five recordings of the same six programs. Software on the HR20s was 0x168. Results were as follows:
The TiVo consistently started recording three seconds earlier than the HR20-700, and the HR20-700 2-3 seconds earlier than the HR20-100.
MPEG-2 HD recordings and MPEG-4 HD recordings on the same Hr20 always started at different times - by two to three seconds either way.
The two HR20s finished their recordings of the same program at the same time, to within a couple of seconds. The SD TiVo always recorded for a couple of seconds longer than the HR20s.

These tests are by far the most consistent results for the HR20s I have seen. The SD TiVo ALWAYS starts earlier and records for longer than either of the HR20s, but only by a few seconds. 

I also saw one case, on the HR20-700, of the bug where a program starts to play approx 30 seconds or so into the program, but backing up allows you to see the whole program.

Of course I can't say that everyone else will see the results I am seeing but my testing seems to show that the HR20 is almost there - not quite, but close.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Whatever it is I still miss the beginnings of every show of both of my HR20-700's.

Then it also does that crazy thing where it start 30 seconds even after that.

For the love of god, why?

- Craig


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## ub1934 (Dec 30, 2005)

Ken S said:


> This problem has been noted here for months. There are still some that will stick their head in the sand and blame it on the networks, solar eclipse, satellite latency, etc. It's the same kind of excuse making I've seen for months on the missed recordings issues.
> 
> For whatever reason the HR20-700 tends to start recording late and end early. The same problem doesn't seem to exist, at least to the same extent, with Tivo based units.
> 
> Hopefully, this means that whatever Tivo did to ensure recording a full show can be figured out and duplicated by the folks working on the HR20.


And i thought it was just me , not happy to see all of this going on to others . Could it have anything to do with the HR 20 changing resolutions ?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Whatever it is I still miss the beginnings of every show of both of my HR20-700's.
> 
> Then it also does that crazy thing where it start 30 seconds even after that.
> 
> ...


More importantly...why after all of these months hasn't this been corrected?


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## mrshermanoaks (Aug 27, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> I also saw one case, on the HR20-700, of the bug where a program starts to play approx 30 seconds or so into the program, but backing up allows you to see the whole program.





Milominderbinder2 said:


> Then it also does that crazy thing where it start 30 seconds even after that.


Obviously lots of people are seeing this. Does anyone know if this is a Known Bug, acknowledged by DirecTV?


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> For the love of god, why?
> 
> - Craig


Why not?


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## jayerndl (Aug 4, 2007)

Ken S said:


> More importantly...why after all of these months hasn't this been corrected?


It seems to me that there are still many people on this forum that deny a problems exists or indicate that the problem is so complicated that it is unrealistic to expect it to be fixed. I think it's BS and that if both SD and HD Directivos can start and stop recording reliably then the HR20 should be able to also.

Jay


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

jayerndl said:


> It seems to me that there are still many people on this forum that deny a problems exists or indicate that the problem is so complicated that it is unrealistic to expect it to be fixed. I think it's BS and that if both SD and HD Directivos can start and stop recording reliably then the HR20 should be able to also.
> 
> Jay


I suspect that the people that are denying the problem don't see the problem. I have no doubt that people are seeing recordings happen later or not at all. However, some of us have never seen late recordings. We don't know why or why not.

I expect all of the problems to be fixed. It may take time to resolve.


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## Kojo62 (Aug 9, 2007)

Wow, interesting thread. I thought it was just my own HR20 having this problem.

I've even tried the exercise of checking when the HR20 actually changes the displayed time and comparing it to the "exact" local time as reported by various sources. It never seems to be that far off, usually within a few seconds at worst. So I don't think it's an issue of clock drift. But somehow the HR20 always clips the beginning of my shows no matter what.

By comparison, our older DirecTiVo upstairs still starts all its recordings quite accurately, and has done so for years now.

I thought about padding 1 minute to all my recordings, and have done just that for a few programs here and there. But I'd rather not introduce conflicts across my entire scheduling grid, and have decided instead I'll just have to live with this annoyance for now. Hopefully they can develop a fix for it.


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## wagman (Jul 11, 2007)

I too am frustrated with the whole recording starting late. I truly never remember this happening on my HR10. 

To the suggestion of setting the defaults to start recording 1 minute early: Wouldn't that cause conflicts with recordings scheduled after these programs? What would be helpful is to allow a stop recording early option; that way you could set the defaults to start and stop 1 minute early, solving any conflict issues (having a 15, 30, and 45 second option would be helpful in this scenario as well).

Earl: I don't see you as defensive...you just state things objectively at flatly: that comes across to some as defensive or superior (I have this same problem with some of my e-mails). It is not meant as anything other than neutral, but people take it as they want to.

Also to Earl: I'm no rocket scientist, but would not all of the reasons you listed in your initial reply to the OP actually cause a delay in the program starting, not a delay in the recording starting. If the program and recording both started at 8pm, wouldn't, because of your list of reasons, the program start seconds after the recording started, possibly causing cutoff at the end, not the beginning? I don't buy those reasons being the cause of lousy recording start times. They are legitimate delays, but not the reason the recordings start late. I think D* could encode the programs to start a recording a few seconds earlier on all recordings.

To the person that asked about recording shows back to back: I do this quite frequently, and I get the first few seconds of the latter show at the end of the earlier show. I make it a habit of watching recordings done this way in the order they were recorded, so I catch the first part of the latter show.

wagman


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## digger16309 (Sep 21, 2007)

We know that recordings can get messed up with corrupted guide data, right?

What if the HR20 verifies the program before it starts recording?

Example: You set it to record House at 9:00. For some short period of time after 9:00, the HR20 looks for bits in the data stream that say, "This is House". Then it starts recording.

If say, there is a speech from the oval office that pre-empts House, it doesn't get those bits in the data and doesn't start recording.

This also could be the cause of mysterious random non-recordings. Perhaps it doesn't receive the "This is...." message and then doesn't start recording.

Just a thought.


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## belunos (Oct 6, 2007)

Ha, my wife nearly flipped her lid when the last CSI was cut off by about 30 seconds


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## Tenor72 (May 13, 2007)

hr20 clock needs to be fixed now. stop with the excuses already.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Which channels and shows are you guys experiencing this with? I haven't had my HR20 start late or end early with any recorded show I have watched. Either I'm lucky or I'm not recording the same stuff the rest of you are.


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## wagman (Jul 11, 2007)

PoitNarf said:


> Which channels and shows are you guys experiencing this with? I haven't had my HR20 start late or end early with any recorded show I have watched. Either I'm lucky or I'm not recording the same stuff the rest of you are.


My recordings have been almost universally late getting started..on all channels I have recorded from.

wagman


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

wagman said:


> My recordings have been almost universally late getting started..on all channels I have recorded from.


Late by how much? 30 seconds? Several minutes?


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## rahchgo (Feb 2, 2007)

I had several shows recorded on both my HR20-700 and my HR10-250 in the last week. All but one started on time on both receivers and within one second of each other. The one that started late, started late on both receivers and was only a few seconds late. Shows were all on major networks during prime time. 
I really don't recall seeing many late starts in a long while. I'm an on the current CE 0x1B4. Don't know if clock issues are something they have been working on or not. It hasn't been in the CE notes.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

PoitNarf said:


> Late by how much? 30 seconds? Several minutes?


Usually a few seconds late. Just enough to come in mid way through the opening scene in a sitcom, for instance. You can figure out what is going on well enough, so it is just an irritation, but it sure would be nice to catch those first 3-4 lines of dialog.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

digger16309 said:


> We know that recordings can get messed up with corrupted guide data, right?
> 
> What if the HR20 verifies the program before it starts recording?
> 
> ...


Outstanding thought! It is clear that the HR20 verifies that the data in the stream is what it is supposed to be. The only question is while it is doing that it could start the recordand pitch it if it turned out not to be the right thing.


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## jerry3b (Jan 25, 2007)

Just thimk everyone soon we will be having a time change.


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## Tulsa1 (Oct 15, 2003)

I currently have 4 DVRs:

HR10-250 w/D*
HR20-100 w/D*
942 w/E*
622 w/E*

The HR20 is the only DVR that is late to start (~15sec) everytime.
The other 3 are always dead on with the atomic clock.
I would think this would be an easy bug to fix.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Tulsa1 said:


> I currently have 4 DVRs:
> 
> HR10-250 w/D*
> HR20-100 w/D*
> ...


+1
Both HR20's are now 15 seconds late in recording every show.

- Craig


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## elove (Aug 17, 2007)

Is the clock issue on the wish list of things to fix?


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I have a Old CBand system at home with a 4DTV & FTA receiver so on some of the channels I can see the source material for these broadcasts.

There is almost a 5 second delay between what I see on the source and the final Directv video. The problem with your assumption is that this time varies, but in fact it seems to be constant across the all the channels. That being the case it would be very easy for directv to compensate for the lag and get the channels recording on time.

IMO the real problem is not these 5 second delays, but it seems that we are being intentionally frustrated by the stations in order to make DVR's less attractive/reliable. Some stations are intentionally starting shows 1-2 minutes early and some are ending 1-2 minutes late. A prime example of this is ER on NBC which always starts before the appointed time
.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Well the HR10-250 wasn't perfect with it's implementation either... but to give you some of the ideas, why this in fact rocket science.
> 
> For a local HD network:
> 
> ...


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## Scott J (Feb 14, 2007)

The HR20 starts recording about 15- 30 seonds late across the board. Yes, there are sometimes other issues that can't be controled such as the time stations air the program or other items. However, the recordings start late. Please put this item on the wish list.


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## Old Guy (Aug 9, 2007)

Just screwing around, it seems the clock on my -100 is about 10 seconds slow.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

So why not just add a 1 minute lead in time? I pad all my shows with 2 Minute start and 2 Minute end padding.



Scott J said:


> The HR20 starts recording about 15- 30 seonds late across the board. Yes, there are sometimes other issues that can't be controled such as the time stations air the program or other items. However, the recordings start late. Please put this item on the wish list.


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> So why not just add a 1 minute lead in time? I pad all my shows with 2 Minute start and 2 Minute end padding.


What happens if you have 2 shows that you are recording consecutively? I know it's rare but it sometimes happens. Isn't a better question: why can't D* fix the problem if it's this widespread and if every other PVR seems to work except the HR20???


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Good Question Sometimes I forget how much TV some of the guys on this forum watch.:eek2: When I hear about people wanting more than 50 series links I read in amasement. I think I use about 15 and I could not imagine ever reaching 50.



JDB30 said:


> What happens if you have 2 shows that you are recording consecutively? I know it's rare but it sometimes happens. Isn't a better question: why can't D* fix the problem if it's this widespread and if every other PVR seems to work except the HR20???


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Good Question Sometimes I forget how much TV some of the guys on this forum watch.:eek2: When I hear about people wanting more than 50 series links I read in amasement. I think I use about 15 and I could not imagine ever reaching 50.


mostly sports & hbo for me.... can't stand network prime time tv


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Im almost the complete opposite. Discovery/Science/Networks/Scifi. Almost never watch the movie channels.



JDB30 said:


> mostly sports & hbo for me.... can't stand network prime time tv


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

dreadlk said:


> So why not just add a 1 minute lead in time? I pad all my shows with 2 Minute start and 2 Minute end padding.


Why not have DirecTV correct their wonky hardware? 

The reason padding will not work is due to conflicts as someone said.


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## Steve Robertson (Jun 7, 2005)

Lee L said:


> Why not have DirecTV correct their wonky hardware?
> 
> The reason padding will not work is due to conflicts as someone said.


I agree 100% with you


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

Just wanted to add to this thread. I've had my first HR20 (-100) for a little over a month. This is my first HD receiver from DirecTV. My previous receivers were all SD Tivo-based. 

I've been able to get used to pretty much everything (even the 30-second slip which is STILL much slower than the 30-second skip I enabled on the Tivo units) but this time issue is very frustrating. 

I have both an SD-DVR120 and the HR20-100 in the same room. I've slowly moved over my Season Passes. Since I don't currently have HD locals (damn DirecTV) in my area I still record SD versions of network shows. Pretty much every show on those locals start recording late. When I go back to my SD-DVR and play the same recording, there's plenty of time at the beginning of the show.

I've continued to keep my SD-DVR120 recording for now and just routinely delete shows that my wife and/or I have already watched, but this really can only be a temporary solution. I've padded *some* shows with an extra minute when I can but conflicts still get in the way for others. 

I haven't done as much extensive testing as some people here have done. All I know is that same recording on the same channel on two different receivers don't record the same way. This was never a problem (noticed) for me before the HR20. Now it's something that's consistently a problem.

One question that I don't think I've seen answered yet. I haven't hooked my HR20 up to the network yet since it's not needed (yet), but - could it be that people that have their HR20's connected to the Internet don't have this problem? Can anyone verify that their having the same problem and have their box connected to the Internet? Every computer I have set up (work and home) has ntp running in some form and I'm curious if the HR20 has that capability built-in as well.

Regardless of what the issue is, it needs to be fixed. Obviously, there will always be a show here or there that gets messed up due to the network starting the show early/late, but when two boxes right next to each other can't seem to record the same way (with the Tivo one doing it correctly every time), there's a problem.


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

bozzaj said:


> One question that I don't think I've seen answered yet. I haven't hooked my HR20 up to the network yet since it's not needed (yet), but - could it be that people that have their HR20's connected to the Internet don't have this problem? Can anyone verify that their having the same problem and have their box connected to the Internet? Every computer I have set up (work and home) has ntp running in some form and I'm curious if the HR20 has that capability built-in as well.


My HR20-700 is connected to the network and has the same problem. It's disappointing that D* doesn't seem to acknowledge that this is a software flaw that impacts the most basic function of a DVR--namely to record programs!


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bozzaj said:


> One question that I don't think I've seen answered yet. I haven't hooked my HR20 up to the network yet since it's not needed (yet), but - could it be that people that have their HR20's connected to the Internet don't have this problem? Can anyone verify that their having the same problem and have their box connected to the Internet? Every computer I have set up (work and home) has ntp running in some form and I'm curious if the HR20 has that capability built-in as well.
> 
> Regardless of what the issue is, it needs to be fixed. Obviously, there will always be a show here or there that gets messed up due to the network starting the show early/late, but when two boxes right next to each other can't seem to record the same way (with the Tivo one doing it correctly every time), there's a problem.


The HR20 sets it clock from its own network (satellites).


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

Ken S said:


> The HR20 sets it clock from its own network (satellites).


Too bad, since that doesn't seem to be working. Though I haven't checked to see if the time is exactly the same between the boxes.

Presuming the Tivo box and the HR20 both get the same time stream data - How is it that it's being interpreted differently? Or is the issue not that the HR20 doesn't keep correct time but that it just doesn't record at the right time?

Another possibility - Has anyone had a channel up on two TVs (next to each other) with an HR20 and a Tivo receiver and checked to see if (for some reason) the HR20 just processes the stream differently - perhaps quicker - and that the time it takes to start recording is a bit longer, causing the difference in record starts?


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

JDB30 said:


> It's disappointing that D* doesn't seem to acknowledge that this is a software flaw that impacts the most basic function of a DVR--namely to record programs!


But you get *most* of the show, shouldn't that be enough you greedy bastage?  :lol:


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

Lee L said:


> But you get *most* of the show, shouldn't that be enough you greedy bastage?  :lol:


"Fargin' Icehole"


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## rabi (Feb 10, 2006)

This is Fargin' WAR!!!!


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## Old Guy (Aug 9, 2007)

Release the Hounds!


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I don't get it! If it's just a simple issue of the time being off by 20 or 30 seconds why does'nt Directv just set there servers ahead by 30 seconds. I know thats what my old CBand provider would do. The guy told me that they call the subscription company and they in turn call Motorola who would just add 30 seconds to the system clock and Viola all receivers move ahead 30 seconds.
Is there something im missing on this issue?


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## blarnson (Sep 28, 2007)

Something that may be related - there is also a 30 second lag between the clock and guide data.

If you bring up the guide at xx:59 or xx:29 and wait for the time to roll over to the hour or 1/2 hour, the guide will stay on the previous half hour. Even if you turn the guide off and then bring it up again, it still won't come up on the correct time until a good 30 seconds after the clocks shows xx:00 or xx:30.


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

blarnson said:


> Something that may be related - there is also a 30 second lag between the clock and guide data.
> 
> If you bring up the guide at xx:59 or xx:29 and wait for the time to roll over to the hour or 1/2 hour, the guide will stay on the previous half hour. Even if you turn the guide off and then bring it up again, it still won't come up on the correct time until a good 30 seconds after the clocks shows xx:00 or xx:30.


This could actually be a possibility. I'll have to pay attention to exactly how much is lost at the beginning. If it follows the way the guide updates it may be related.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Yikes that sounds like they are depending on software to keep the time and not an internal clock circuit  I would guess that it gets the time corrections periodicaly Via satellite and depends on it's own software between the updates.



blarnson said:


> Something that may be related - there is also a 30 second lag between the clock and guide data.
> 
> If you bring up the guide at xx:59 or xx:29 and wait for the time to roll over to the hour or 1/2 hour, the guide will stay on the previous half hour. Even if you turn the guide off and then bring it up again, it still won't come up on the correct time until a good 30 seconds after the clocks shows xx:00 or xx:30.


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## TigerDriver (Jul 27, 2007)

Question#1: Are any of those who have problems using eSATA drives?
Question#2: Have any of you who've purchased eSATA drives noticed any change in this behavior?

Here's what I'm thinking:

A year or so ago, I was consulting for a company that manufactured a data-stream recorder that recorded on a user-definable schedule. We got field reports that the first few seconds of data were missing from some recordings. We send field engineers on site to verify the problem and swap out recorders, which were sent back to our engineering lab.

We had about a dozen of the faulty units in the lab, but, after two days of pulling our hair out we couldn't find any problem. I stayed around very late in the lab on the second night--just to get some other work done. In the quiet, I heard something peculiar: at the appointed time, I heard all drives click simultaneously as their controllers moved the head to the appropriate part of the disk, and I saw the disk activity light come on. It was what I didn't hear that got my attention. This brand/model of drive makes a very faint scratching sound during disk writes. On all the bad units there was a multi-second delay between hearing the head-positioning click and seeing the activity-light and the characteristic scratchy sound of data actually being written to the disk.

To make a long story short, there was a defect in certain production runs of these drives in which the head positioner delayed its READY report back to disk controller...by a few seconds. IOW, these controllers had a problem that caused them _intermittently _to take a 2-10 seconds time to verify that the disk was spinning at the correct speed. We huddled with the drive manufacturer, who replaced the drives with newer models.

Now, I know that lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place, but I just looked inside my HR20 and its drive is the same brand/model number as the drives that we replaced. (I'm under non-disclosure by both the drive manufacturer and my client, so I can't divulge which manufacturer/model number was involved.)

Such a problem could easily account for missing initial portions of recordings. Hence the questions at the top of this post. When an eSATA is installed, the internal drive is ignored, so if it were causing a problem, that problem would disappear when the eSata was installed.


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## rabit ears (Nov 18, 2005)

As one of the HR10 die hards, I can tell everyone that my HR20 starts recording between 15 and 30 seconds after the HR10. I saw it last night with the NBC news of the air on the HR10 and off the dish on the HR20. 

And why don't I start a minute early? Simple, I like to record multiple programs simultaneously serially and in parallel. Starting a minute early screws everything up.

So, what will it take for D* to recognize the problem? I think I can use the PiP and record to DVD with the HR10 on one side of the screen and the HR20 on the other. Is it worth the setup and effort to get D* to move on this or should I just add my voice to the wailing and gnashing of teeth?

If I should record it, to whom do I send it and what assurance will I have that I won't end up dealing with a copyright infringement problem?


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## DarkAudit (Sep 10, 2007)

rabit ears said:


> As one of the HR10 die hards, I can tell everyone that my HR20 starts recording between 15 and 30 seconds after the HR10. I saw it last night with the NBC news of the air on the HR10 and off the dish on the HR20.


I see it as well with the TiVo recording off my H20 in the living room, and the HR20-700 in the den. The TiVo starts ~15 seconds earlier than the HR20 on a consistent basis.

As per the post above, is this also happening with eSATA users? Do we all have a bad drive in our HR20s?


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

DarkAudit said:


> I see it as well with the TiVo recording off my H20 in the living room, and the HR20-700 in the den. The TiVo starts ~15 seconds earlier than the HR20 on a consistent basis.
> 
> As per the post above, is this also happening with eSATA users? Do we all have a bad drive in our HR20s?


This isn't a drive problem---this is a software problem. Since the machine is chronically behind, D* needs to adjust with an offset of some kind.


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## JDB30 (Sep 6, 2007)

rabit ears said:


> As one of the HR10 die hards, I can tell everyone that my HR20 starts recording between 15 and 30 seconds after the HR10. I saw it last night with the NBC news of the air on the HR10 and off the dish on the HR20.
> 
> And why don't I start a minute early? Simple, I like to record multiple programs simultaneously serially and in parallel. Starting a minute early screws everything up.
> 
> ...


Simple.... record one of D*'s channels (100, 201, etc.). Maybe Earl has some suggestions as to whom you can send it to. I just wonder whether this is even on D*'s radar.... Here's a question: DOES ANYONE HAVE AN HR20 THAT ACTUALLY BEGINS RECORDING ON TIME?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

I see the same late start problem...but why do others claim they never have the issue?
Maybe we should start a conference call or be in the chat room when some shows are going to start and see what happens.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

JDB30 said:


> Simple.... record one of D*'s channels (100, 201, etc.). Maybe Earl has some suggestions as to whom you can send it to. I just wonder whether this is even on D*'s radar.... Here's a question: DOES ANYONE HAVE AN HR20 THAT ACTUALLY BEGINS RECORDING ON TIME?


I have two HR20s that always record on time. I guess DTV likes me better than you 

But seriously, there are dozens of factors that can contribute to late recording and the reasons for one person may have nothing to do with another. For local channels, there many more "links in the chain". If the timing of any of these is off, then the HR20 will be off. Of course, if the HR20 itself is incorrect, then that makes everything that much worse.


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> But seriously, there are dozens of factors that can contribute to late recording and the reasons for one person may have nothing to do with another. For local channels, there many more "links in the chain". If the timing of any of these is off, then the HR20 will be off. Of course, if the HR20 itself is incorrect, then that makes everything that much worse.


With regards to the local channels, the only problem with that explanation is that all the *other* receivers record those same channels just fine. HR10's, SD-DVR's, etc. One would think if the "links in the chain" are off, wouldn't all the receivers be off?


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

rabit ears said:


> So, what will it take for D* to recognize the problem? I think I can use the PiP and record to DVD with the HR10 on one side of the screen and the HR20 on the other. Is it worth the setup and effort to get D* to move on this or should I just add my voice to the wailing and gnashing of teeth?


Well, you can take my favorite advice and call and write DirecTV each time it happens. It certainly can't hurt.

I would expect it would be most effective for those of you that currently have an HR10 as well as the fact that they do not start the same time shuts down most of the lame things D* will say to justify WRT networks starting on time, yada, yada, yada.


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## mtnsackett (Aug 22, 2007)

JDB30 said:


> Is there a way to do this globally? If so, I haven't seen it.


Ditto Can you tell us where to get info on how to do this .... PLEASE....:hair:


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## DarkAudit (Sep 10, 2007)

No one in this thread has said if they're using eSATA or not. Are those users having the same clock issue?

Per JDB30, it could still be a software issue, but if eSATA users aren't having this trouble, it's possible that the code that bypasses the internal drive is also bypassing the buggy clock code.

The faulty batch of drives theory shouldn't be shot down so quickly. It could be the problem in the drive's firmware, and unless a) someone has an HR20 that shipped with a different make or model of internal drive, or b) someone has the know-how to swap out the drive themselves, we don't have a control to compare the suspect drive to.


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

DarkAudit said:


> The faulty batch of drives theory shouldn't be shot down so quickly. It could be the problem in the drive's firmware, and unless a) someone has an HR20 that shipped with a different make or model of internal drive, or b) someone has the know-how to swap out the drive themselves, we don't have a control to compare the suspect drive to.


Wouldn't checking the drive make and model void the warranty on the unit? With these being leased units I'm not quite ready to go and open my receiver just yet.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

bozzaj said:


> With regards to the local channels, the only problem with that explanation is that all the *other* receivers record those same channels just fine. HR10's, SD-DVR's, etc. One would think if the "links in the chain" are off, wouldn't all the receivers be off?


Did you read my last sentence? _*"Of course, if the HR20 itself is incorrect, then that makes everything that much worse."*_


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## DarkAudit (Sep 10, 2007)

bozzaj said:


> Wouldn't checking the drive make and model void the warranty on the unit? With these being leased units I'm not quite ready to go and open my receiver just yet.


I would guess that some of the more "in the know" members would have information on what drives went into the HR20s, and if there were any changes in drives during the production cycle.

I'd like to know if the problem is consistent amongst HR20-100s and HR20-700s, and if it's also consistent if there was a change in the drive make/model installed.

Now that the HR21 is shipping, what's the story with the clock on that model?


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## azmikew (Aug 10, 2007)

Our HR20-700 (our first DVR, no eSATA drive and 0x1B4 software) consistently starts recordings late. I recorded Earl, 30 Rock and The Office last night while watching the World Series and each show started late. All previous recordings with the last national release started late as well. I think this is an important item for D* to address in future CE releases.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

DarkAudit said:


> No one in this thread has said if they're using eSATA or not. Are those users having the same clock issue?


I use eSATA and have the problem.


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## Tulsa1 (Oct 15, 2003)

I had the problem with the internal drive and the same when I switched to the external drive. This is not a hardware issue.


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## TigerDriver (Jul 27, 2007)

JDB30 said:


> This isn't a drive problem---this is a software problem. Since the machine is chronically behind, D* needs to adjust with an offset of some kind.


Whoa! It's best to characterize problem before proposing a solution (i.e., an offset of "some kind"). It could be a combination of drive latency, inaccurate zero-stuffing in the synchronous data stream, and about a half-dozen other things I can think of the top of my head. Plus any combination/interaction of any/all of those things.

A good first step is for folks to post your machines's times compared to the atomic clock . On any dual buffer tivo-based machine, tune both tuners to D* channel 100. On an HR20, start a manual record on channel 100, then watch it live. (I'm trying to get everyone on the same satellite/transponder; if channel 100 is carried on multiple satellites/transponders, then this isn't a good test. Anybody?)

For those who don't know, on Tivo-based machines enable on-screen time with Select.Play.Select.9.Select == three tivo-dings. Sequence must be entered while watching recorded content.

I can't find a source for second-resolution on the HR20, so I just watch for the minute to roll over on the _Menu.Help_ page, then look back at the atomic clock.

Here are my numbers wrt to the atomic clock:

HR10-250: -3 
DSR6000: -3 
HR20-100: -11

.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Folks, please don't forget about that other HR20 bug. When you start playback it often doesn't start at the beginning of the show...you have to hit rewind to get to the start.

I don't think this is the only issue on late recordings but it does serve to exacerbate the issue.


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> Did you read my last sentence? _*"Of course, if the HR20 itself is incorrect, then that makes everything that much worse."*_


Yes, actually I did. The point I was making was that the links didn't mess up the other receivers. It's not a question of bad or worse.

I don't think we're really discussing the fact that late recordings can happen. There *are* a ton of reasons for late recordings. I think we're discussing the fact that the HR20 records consistently different for many people. When you're dealing with two receivers right next to each other that try to record a particular show and the HR20 records later *every time* you can eliminate all those "links in the chain" that come from outside the receiver. They really shouldn't matter with this particular problem.

Basically, if the source is exactly the same and all the "rules" are followed, and the time data is exact (which is acquired from the source so should be exact). shouldn't the receivers do the same thing? They don't - at least from my standpoint, and that's a problem. If one receiver can do it correctly, then they all should, unless there's a bug or some type of hardware problem.

Since people with eSATA are also having the problem, we should be able to eliminate the "faulty hard drive" possibility. I can't think of any other hardware that could cause the problem. Tuners perhaps? Could it be that people not having problems already have their tuners "tuned" to that particular station?


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## blarnson (Sep 28, 2007)

There is a lag between what the displayed (actual) time and the time the unit recognizes that a program is on.

Last night, I had a recording set to start at 8pm. At 7:59, I brought up the guide (tuned to the channel that was to start recording) - it was displaying 7:30pm guide data.

When the clock changed to 8:00pm, the following occurred:

1. The guide stayed where it was displaying 7:30pm info.
2. The program slated to start at 8pm was showing in the preview window - it started at the same time as the clock rolled over to 8pm.
3. The unit did not start recording as verified by the absence of the record light.

About 15 seconds later the guide changed to the 8pm time slot AND the unit started recording.

It seem that the HR20 depends on the guide data (not the clock) to recognize when a program has started. If the guide lags, so does the perceived program start time even though the system time is correct.

BTW - verified this on multiple attempts.


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Folks, please don't forget about that other HR20 bug. When you start playback it often doesn't start at the beginning of the show...you have to hit rewind to get to the start.
> 
> I don't think this is the only issue on late recordings but it does serve to exacerbate the issue.


Yeah - I always try backing up. Sometimes if I back up, the first try or two doesn't go all the way back, but if I try a could more times I can get another 3-4 seconds. Still not all the way to the beginning though.

Another question. I'm not running a CE release - Could it be that the newer CE releases have started to fix the problem and the people having the most problem are running a non-CE?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bozzaj said:


> Yeah - I always try backing up. Sometimes if I back up, the first try or two doesn't go all the way back, but if I try a could more times I can get another 3-4 seconds. Still not all the way to the beginning though.
> 
> Another question. I'm not running a CE release - Could it be that the newer CE releases have started to fix the problem and the people having the most problem are running a non-CE?


I have the latest CE release and the issue is still there.


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

blarnson said:


> About 15 seconds later the guide changed to the 8pm time slot AND the unit started recording.
> 
> It seem that the HR20 depends on the guide data (not the clock) to recognize when a program has started. If the guide lags, so does the perceived program start time even though the system time is correct.
> 
> BTW - verified this on multiple attempts.


Interesting. Does the clock show the right time (say 8:00pm) where the guide data is lagging? I think someone else mentioned the guide data lag.

If it always records exactly at the same time the guide data moves then that's at least something! Not a fix, but at least a possible reason.


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## TigerDriver (Jul 27, 2007)

Tulsa1 said:


> I had the problem with the internal drive and the same when I switched to the external drive. This is not a hardware issue.


Good info.

Unless someone submits info that replacing with an eSATA did , this may rule out my long-shot as a drive issue, but not hardware issues in general--by a long shot.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Gotchaa said:


> Here is the solution: Record the OTA channel and your chances are better to get the full program (well, not really) and a better picture (well, not in all cases)


Still miss the front end of shows with OTA too.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> So why not just add a 1 minute lead in time? I pad all my shows with 2 Minute start and 2 Minute end padding.


I would love to but won;t this create conflicts?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

TigerDriver said:


> Question#1: Are any of those who have problems using eSATA drives?
> Question#2: Have any of you who've purchased eSATA drives noticed any change in this behavior?


Happened on both my 700's before adding esata and happens on the one I have added esata to. No difference. Couln't say about the 100 yet as I don't heavilly use it.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

mtnsackett said:


> Ditto Can you tell us where to get info on how to do this .... PLEASE....:hair:


Those designers found just about the worst place for it.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1204171&postcount=21


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## TigerDriver (Jul 27, 2007)

bozzaj said:


> Too bad, since that doesn't seem to be working. Though keep correct time but that it just doesn't record at the right time?
> 
> Another possibility - Has anyone had a channel up on two TVs (next to each other) with an HR20 and a Tivo receiver and checked to see if (for some reason) the HR20 just processes the stream differently - perhaps quicker - and that the time it takes to start recording is a bit longer, causing the difference in record starts?


I've got all four of my dvrs on a modulator. My office TV has PIP, so been able to compare their stream rendering. The HR20 renders the stream just perceptibly (milliseconds) faster than the Tivo-based units.


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## TigerDriver (Jul 27, 2007)

blarnson said:


> Something that may be related - there is also a 30 second lag between the clock and guide data.
> 
> If you bring up the guide at xx:59 or xx:29 and wait for the time to roll over to the hour or 1/2 hour, the guide will stay on the previous half hour. Even if you turn the guide off and then bring it up again, it still won't come up on the correct time until a good 30 seconds after the clocks shows xx:00 or xx:30.


Good info.


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## dsm (Jul 11, 2004)

Are you guys sure that the leading/trailing minutes when enabled are not dealt with to avoid confilicts? I know it can only record two things at a time, but maybe it decides to not do the extra time when it can't. I noticed this problem recurring a few months ago and enabled 3 minutes before and 5 minutes after all recordings and changed the default. I'm recording quite a bit (from 8-11 most nights there are two stations tuned) and I haven't missed recording anything. I throw a lot away without watching though so I haven't noticed what it is doing on the boundary conditions.

steve


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## TigerDriver (Jul 27, 2007)

blarnson said:


> There is a lag between what the displayed (actual) time and the time the unit recognizes that a program is on.
> 
> Last night, I had a recording set to start at 8pm. At 7:59, I brought up the guide (tuned to the channel that was to start recording) - it was displaying 7:30pm guide data.
> 
> ...


This is great info. In fact, my mind is racing..<g>

Try setting up a manual record for some unusual time: say 3 minutes after the hour and see whether you get the same results.


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## blarnson (Sep 28, 2007)

dsm said:


> Are you guys sure that the leading/trailing minutes when enabled are not dealt with to avoid confilicts?


There were no conflicts involved when I did this check. The unit was set to record only one 1/2 hour program at the appointed time with nothing else set to record either 1/2 hour before or after.


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## TigerDriver (Jul 27, 2007)

I created a new bug thread on this topic:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1244750#post1244750


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## dsm (Jul 11, 2004)

blarnson said:


> There were no conflicts involved when I did this check. The unit was set to record only one 1/2 hour program at the appointed time with nothing else set to record either 1/2 hour before or after.


Unless you had a typo and I'm misunderstanding what you are saying this seems obvious . You need to record at least 3 shows with the overlap enabled to understand how it handles the overlaps. For example:

FOX 8-9
ABC 9-10
CBS 9-10

Barring some special logic the unit would have to drop one of these shows because between say 8:57 and 9:03 there would be three recordings going on which is impossible. I hope it has the extra logic to just skip recording the extra time instead of dropping shows altogether. Forgot to try it and I'm off to bed now.

-steve


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Tried a little test this past Friday.
I set two different HR20-700s to record Friday Night Lights.
Both recording off the DirecTV feed (rather than OTA).

One of the HR20s started recording on time. The other one started six seconds later.
Neither was recording anything before the show. Both were in standby.


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## dsm (Jul 11, 2004)

dsm said:


> Unless you had a typo and I'm misunderstanding what you are saying this seems obvious . You need to record at least 3 shows with the overlap enabled to understand how it handles the overlaps. For example:
> 
> FOX 8-9
> ABC 9-10
> ...


I tried this last night. The overlap time does create conflicts. So I'd like an enhancement which makes the overlap "optional" in the sense that it won't create a conflict due to the overlap minutes (just drop the extra minutes).

-steve


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

dsm said:


> I tried this last night. The overlap time does create conflicts. So I'd like an enhancement which makes the overlap "optional" in the sense that it won't create a conflict due to the overlap minutes (just drop the extra minutes).


That's an excellent feature - Definite plus over Tivo, since it would just cancel the recording if the overlap caused conflicts.

This will fix things (at least) when there's no conflicts, but it won't fix it when there are conflicts and the channel needs to change.


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## bikspk (Apr 17, 2007)

Has anyone compared the recording start time of an OTA channel and it's comparable local sat channel?

I know that there is a delay resulting from transmission which would be a couple seconds maybe.

I don't have OTA connected to my 700 or I'd do it myself.


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## DarkAudit (Sep 10, 2007)

bikspk said:


> Has anyone compared the recording start time of an OTA channel and it's comparable local sat channel?
> 
> I know that there is a delay resulting from transmission which would be a couple seconds maybe.
> 
> I don't have OTA connected to my 700 or I'd do it myself.


Only OTA I get w/o a big rooftop antenna is WNPB/PBS, so no checking here.

Can anyone confirm/deny that the HR21 has this problem?


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

bikspk said:


> Has anyone compared the recording start time of an OTA channel and it's comparable local sat channel?
> 
> I know that there is a delay resulting from transmission which would be a couple seconds maybe.
> 
> I don't have OTA connected to my 700 or I'd do it myself.


I've done it many times as part of my testing on this problem. First, you have to make sure both tuners are on the same type of channel - say local SD - before trying it. And then - well, there is no consistent answer. Sometimes the MPEG-4 HD local starts first, sometimes the MPEG-2 OTA local. Time spread is max about three seconds. Same sort of results on both the HR20-100 and the HR20-700.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

bikspk said:


> Has anyone compared the recording start time of an OTA channel and it's comparable local sat channel?
> 
> I know that there is a delay resulting from transmission which would be a couple seconds maybe.
> 
> I don't have OTA connected to my 700 or I'd do it myself.


I have not done a side by side comparisson but I only use OTA for locals now and have this issue.


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## DarkAudit (Sep 10, 2007)

Last night was the first recording of Pushing Daisies since the new software update. At first glance, it's starting earlier than the previous ones, which were starting about 20 seconds or so in. Further investigation is necessary.

Since the software update, has anyone noticed any appreciable change?

And again, can anyone confirm or deny that the HR21 shares this bug?


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## bozzaj (Nov 29, 2006)

DarkAudit said:


> Last night was the first recording of Pushing Daisies since the new software update. At first glance, it's starting earlier than the previous ones, which were starting about 20 seconds or so in. Further investigation is necessary.
> 
> Since the software update, has anyone noticed any appreciable change?
> 
> And again, can anyone confirm or deny that the HR21 shares this bug?


I've been waiting until the end of the week to check all the different shows, but so far I've noticed a significant difference in show starts. First, soft-padding doesn't seem to be happening anymore when shows are recorded back to back. Previously, I noticed that two recordings on the same channel would pad a little bit where the second show would have part of the end of the first show - not necessarily the previous show itself but the recorded data would overlap a little bit. I had never set my recording to record a minute or two earlier.

Now, the start of the recording for the second show is pretty much 1-2 seconds after the end of the first show. This is more or less in line with what the DirecTivo would do. Unfortunately, I'm still seeing a little bit of the start of the second show on the end of the first show, but this happened a lot with the DirecTivo units, so I'm not all that concerned there.

Secondly, shows that start on new channel seem to be recording closer to the beginning. If I start playing a show, I lose a little bit, but if I rewind or tick back I can catch a few more seconds and I can *JUST* see the fade in to start a show.

I haven't had a chance to do a thorough test but I will by the weekend. There are a couple of specifics tonight and tomorrow that I want to see before making a real conclusion.

I updated to the HR20-100 0x1B9 CE this past weekend. Not sure if it was the CE or the reboot (but I had rebooted about two weeks before that to change some wires) but I do think things are looking better. We'll see as time goes though.


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