# Almost Deadly Install - Ironwood Strikes Again!!!



## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

I see my neighbor outside her house today and a new Slimline is installed. I then see her standing near the dish and a large arc occurs between the dish and LNB. Apparently Ironwood had just left and, after a short few minutes of investigation, I find:

1.) None of the coax lines are connected to a ground terminal block. The old coax lines (4) are now jumpered to the new LNBs with short coax jumpers.

2.) Nothing of the install is grounded.

3.) The Ironwood guy drilled a hole into the home to mount the new dish and nicked the 240 volt clothes dryer line on the inside of the dish install. The neighbor's daughter had just started a load of laundry.

The dish was put up in a pouring rain as Hanna was blowing through. The Ironwood installer was there for 10 minutes. No idea how he also had enough time to install new IRD's (HR-21 and H-21), set them up, check signal strengths, and answer any customer questions.

I told the neighbor to call D* immediately. What sort of liability does D* and/or Ironwood have for repair and if a fire started?

Gotta love Ironwood!


----------



## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

dang....everybody..including the installer
is very lucky not to have been seriouly injured...
good everyone is ok...


----------



## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

ccr1958 said:


> dang....everybody..including the installer
> is very lucky not to have been seriouly injured...
> good everyone is ok...


If the installer had a DVM (and knew how to use it!), he may have noticed the dish was live electrically. No idea how he didn't get shocked.


----------



## EXTACAMO (Apr 7, 2007)

What is going on? Between the post about the installer running cable down the dryer vent and now this WTF! Is money the only thing that matters? :nono2:


----------



## webby_s (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes glad to hear everyone is ok, first and foremost... Now this guy (installer) drilled into the live 240 that goes to the dryer!? That's just wrong on all fronts and all of this in the middle of a tropical storm! WTF was he thinking. As a new customer I would have been willing to wait a day or so for the storm to pass, that's for sure. They called D* right away didn't they? Or maybe even the install company!? That's what I would do... Call both!


----------



## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

I'll have to get back to you what D* said. I'll ask her tomorrow. I think she mentioned that she didn't have a number for Ironwood.

Personally, I think the work that Ironwood does is *criminal*.


----------



## DTVTech4U (Sep 5, 2008)

i smell a new arse in the unemployment line come monday.


----------



## captswifty (Sep 28, 2007)

I realize that we hear the worst-of-the-worst install horror stories here, but I have to think there are a slew of other customers experiencing these problems that never find the forum and have no idea what to do.

I might be beating a dead horse, but DirecTV should set up an install hotline, specifically for customers to call in the first 48-96 hours after a problem install, and have it staffed with people that are trained to handle this sort of situation. Put the number right on the form that the installer has the customer sign to make sure they get it. The standard 800 number is staffed by more than capable people, but this is a serious enough situation that it deserves special attention.

DirecTV appears to be interested in improving the quality of the installs (which they should, because the HSPs are the only face to face contact they have with the customers), and this would be a relatively low cost way to start turning things around.

I realize that for every horror story, there are thousands of good installs that happen every day, done by professionals that care about the work they do (even if they are paid less than most people think they should and I thank each and every one of them for doing the job they do). However, bad installs can cost DirecTV hundreds of dollars in credits, lost customers, and negative association.

DirecTV, are you listening?


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Witholding judgement until the rest of the story can be told.

A good number of things just don't add up:

A HR2x takes 7 minutes to cold boot.

If he drilled through the 240 dryer line, why didn't the breaker/fuse pop?

If he only nicked the 240 line, how did the current get from the 240 line to the dish? The jacket on coax is non-conductive.

If it was a lag bolt was driven into the 240 line, then again, why didn't the breaker/fuse pop?

Not taking away from the seriousness of hitting a live electrical line, or what n3ntj is saying, but we are missing some vital info, IMHO.


----------



## djwww98 (Jan 12, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Witholding judgement until the rest of the story can be told.
> 
> A good number of things just don't add up:
> 
> ...


And to add another point that doesn't add up... An arc from the lnb to the dish? What is that; 18 inches? 240 volts is not even close to enough voltage to induce an arc across that much distance. Just not gonna happen. (At least the way described).
Not defending anything... If done as described, installer should be immediately fired before he hurts himself or someone else.


----------



## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

If he nicked the line with one of the bolts, he would have felt it.

Turning on the dryer has no effect as the line is ALWAYS live to the dryer.

Also from a bit of googling and past knowledge, it is something around 30,000 Volts/centimeter for how far electricity can jump in air.


----------



## gen2rx7 (Jan 30, 2008)

One of the guys at my shop drove a lag bolt into 240 once. He did all the outside work. Plumbing mast, aligning dish, running cables, connecting to the ground block, etc... Nothing happened. When he hooked up his ground wire. All the wire smoked and lnb pretty much exploded. He left behind burn marks along the house where the cable used to be. Luckely he didn't get hurt, or anyone else.

My company also had to pay for the damages. 

They should call D* and start a damage claim immediately!!


----------



## DaaQ (Aug 21, 2008)

It was stated that this was done during a TROPICAL STORM. I think there is lightning associated with those things.

One other point to make, we are getting ka lnb's with jumpers attached to it, they are dtv approved, but they are of unequal length.


----------



## Johnnie5000 (Mar 26, 2008)

djwww98 said:


> And to add another point that doesn't add up... An arc from the lnb to the dish? What is that; 18 inches? 240 volts is not even close to enough voltage to induce an arc across that much distance. Just not gonna happen. (At least the way described).
> Not defending anything... If done as described, installer should be immediately fired before he hurts himself or someone else.


And another, the lnb is mostly plastic, especially the part facing the dish... how would it arc like that?


----------



## JoeF (Aug 20, 2007)

Actually, it does add up. First, it's not 220, it's 110 in each leg. The lag bolt only hit one of the 3 wires (there are 2 hots + 1 grd). If he hit 2 wires, a hot and grd, the breaker would have popped. If he hit both hots, he would have had a "phase buck" (BIG arc and spark). He didn't get zapped because he never provided a path to ground. I don't believe that the arc jumped from the LNB to the dish. I'm guessing that something moved and the arc jumped from the mount to the cable (cable is grounded).


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

EXTACAMO said:


> What is going on? Between the post about the installer running cable down the dryer vent and now this WTF! Is money the only thing that matters? :nono2:





> That's just wrong on all fronts and all of this in the middle of a tropical storm! WTF was he thinking. As a new customer I would have been willing to wait a day or so for the storm to pass, that's for sure.


Keep in mind a few things, folks:

- Most areas of the country currently have a 4-5 week backlog. If your appointment is skipped or rescheduled, it could be a month before you see another installer. Customers that have waited 4-5 weeks do NOT want to reschedule and most want their TV *RIGHT NOW*, no matter what.

- Because of the backlogs, most installers are working 16+ hour days, 6-7 days a week. They are still being WAY overbooked every day, and are under incredible pressure to GET JOBS IN. HSPs often threaten to backcharge techs who refuse to do jobs, creating an environment where most techs feel they have little choice in the matter.

- Installers only make money when they complete jobs. If a job isn't completed for any reason, the installer eats all the expense of his time, labor to site-survey the house, and gas/mileage to get to and from that customer.

I'm not suggesting that the installer didn't do anything wrong; he did, and a damage claim needs to be made here, as well as the installation fixed. Calling DirecTV is the best way to proceed.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Is the installer to blame? It isn't like the location of the wires is obvious when lagging into the side of a house. This could have happened with a 110 outlet or lighting feed too.

The one sure way to mostly avoid that problem is only do roof mounts. If drilling into the side of the house to run the wire inside then four steps need to be done.
1. Go inside and look for outlets.
2. Cross your fingers.
3. Pray.
4. Drill.
 
Who knows where they really ran the wires in the wall?

That's why all my wires go into the basement and then up through the floor or through the convenient wiring chases left behind when the heating was changed from hot air to hot water baseboard.


----------



## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Thats why IMO installers should also carry utility finders (they can sense wires/etc.), but they are a bit pricey.


----------



## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

The lag bolt penetrated and partially broke the neutral conductor on the 240 Volt line. If he had hit either of the two hot conductors, he probably would have been zapped right then and there. A breaker did trip, and when the neighbor went to turn on the breaker (not knowing why it was suddenly off), the arc occured. I didn't see the arc but I did see the brownish mark it left at the bottom of the dish near the arm for the LNB. Not sure exactly what occurred, but I am going by what the neighbor told me and what I saw for myself (of the dish and the inside of the house).

I saw the guy over there in the rain (it was heavy rain, not T-storms), and he left after approx. 10 minutes. Apparently, he simply put up the dish and reconnected the old coax to the LNBs. Due to the pouring rain, he apparently was in a hurry or had another appt to get to. He handed my neighbor two white IRD boxes (HR-21 and H-21) and she had to hook them up herself. I thought these guys were supposed to hook up the IRDs, run the setup, setup the remote to use the TV as well, and answer any client questions. The installer did none of these.

30,000 volts per centimeter? Not even close. I did some extensive research in college (I am an EE) and a spark will jump a much larger gap with much less voltage under the right humidity. Remember, it was raining during the install and arcing incident.

Update -

Another D* installer is outside right now and I walked over to see what he had to say about the previous install. He agrees it was wrong and we showed him the arc markings on the dish and the burnt Romex from within the wall behind where the bolt was drilled, as well as the burn marks on the wall. 

He removed the dish, installed a new Slimline on a pole out in the yard and I had to babysit him to instruct him how to ground the dish. Since it was approx. 25' from the home's electrical service ground, I asked that he install a 8' ground rod and bond this new rod to the electrical service ground rod with 6 AWG. I printed out articles 810 and 820 of the 2005 NEC to give him a good read. He had to go to the store and buy these (apparently, Ironwood does not supply this equipment to their installers) after conferring with his boss and returned and installed these.


----------



## msmith (Apr 23, 2002)

n3ntj said:


> 30,000 volts per centimeter? Not even close. I did some extensive research in college (I am an EE) and a spark will jump a much larger gap with much less voltage under the right humidity. Remember, it was raining during the install and arcing incident.


I'll back you up on the humidity. Tropical Storm Hanna was here and humidity was at least 99.5%


----------



## mightymouse (Jun 4, 2007)

From someone with a job dealing with high voltage, fyi minimum clearance for 20,000 volts to ground is 13". Drop to 4,330V and it goes to 6". These are power substation DESIGN standards, which take humidity into account. there is no way it arced from the LNB to the dish. I agree with JoeF, the arc had to come from the mount to the cable at a much shorter distance.


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

n3ntj said:


> The lag bolt penetrated and partially broke the neutral conductor on the 240 Volt line. If he had hit either of the two hot conductors, he probably would have been zapped right then and there. A breaker did trip, and when the neighbor went to turn on the breaker (not knowing why it was suddenly off), the arc occured. I didn't see the arc but I did see the brownish mark it left at the bottom of the dish near the arm for the LNB. Not sure exactly what occurred, but I am going by what the neighbor told me and what I saw for myself (of the dish and the inside of the house).
> 
> I saw the guy over there in the rain (it was heavy rain, not T-storms), and he left after approx. 10 minutes. Apparently, he simply put up the dish and reconnected the old coax to the LNBs. Due to the pouring rain, he apparently was in a hurry or had another appt to get to. He handed my neighbor two white IRD boxes (HR-21 and H-21) and she had to hook them up herself. I thought these guys were supposed to hook up the IRDs, run the setup, setup the remote to use the TV as well, and answer any client questions. The installer did none of these.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the rest of the story.

I know you had the best of intentions, but you may have had the guy break the law if he's not a licensed electrician. While I can't speak for the local laws in your area, here the only ones that can install ground rods (legally) are licensed electricians.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

n3ntj said:


> Since it was approx. 25' from the home's electrical service ground, I asked that he install a 8' ground rod and bond this new rod to the electrical service ground rod with 6 AWG. I printed out articles 810 and 820 of the 2005 NEC to give him a good read. He had to go to the store and buy these (apparently, Ironwood does not supply this equipment to their installers) after conferring with his boss and returned and installed these.


Unfortunately, you almost assured that you screwed the second installer out of the money he laid out for that ground rod and wire, which is probably double what he made for the job. As you noted, HSPs do not supply these materials, and have no mechanism in place to reimburse an installer for them. Nor do they pay anywhere near what it would cost to have the installer install them.

Had it been me, I'd have left as soon as you insisted on this. I don't mean to be a jerk, but there would be no way I would PAY to redo this install.

Thank god I no longer work in the HSP system! :nono2:


----------



## eandras (Feb 16, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Thanks for the rest of the story.
> 
> I know you had the best of intentions, but you may have had the guy break the law if he's not a licensed electrician. While I can't speak for the local laws in your area, here the only ones that can install ground rods (legally) are licensed electricians.


Since he was hired by the homeowner through Directv to do a proper installtion of the system which would required a ground rod and bonding to the current electrical service ground the Homeowner is required to get an electrical permit with an inspection.


----------



## intelisevil (Aug 1, 2008)

There really should be more communication between D* and Ironwood now . . .

The dispatcher in my local Ironwood office told me that D* had purchased Ironwood about a month ago.


----------



## Johnnie5000 (Mar 26, 2008)

IIP said:


> Unfortunately, you almost assured that you screwed the second installer out of the money he laid out for that ground rod and wire, which is probably double what he made for the job. As you noted, HSPs do not supply these materials, and have no mechanism in place to reimburse an installer for them. Nor do they pay anywhere near what it would cost to have the installer install them.
> 
> Had it been me, I'd have left as soon as you insisted on this. I don't mean to be a jerk, but there would be no way I would PAY to redo this install.


What he said. We're satellite installers, not licensed electricians. If we were electricians, why would we be hanging dishes up in the rain for peanuts. Way to screw the guy who had nothing to do with the original damage. :nono2:


----------



## gen2rx7 (Jan 30, 2008)

Well if it was 25 ft to the house ground and I had to det a pole I would have moved the ground block 5 feet closer. The heck with buying things to get the job done. They will NEVER repay it. It takes a month to get a per diem check around here.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

My company did a VIP-1 install for the DirecTV VP who was in charge of the TiVo program (I forget her name, but I have it somewhere) when she moved to my area. She had 6 TiVos and a mini-mansion, and 2 in-house techs and another contractor all refused to do the install, as all the lines were to be fished and a lot of other custom work involved.

She called Mark Walsh (FOM of California) and Mark called the HSP, and the HSP called me. Both the HSP and Mark Walsh *swore* that we would be compensated for all the extra work. I had 4 installers working on that house for 7 hours the next day to get it all done. She called Mark Walsh and raved about the job we did.

Think we ever got paid?

The next time the HSP asked for a favor, I gave them some very specific anatomical directions as to where they could submit their request. Some very inventive and colorful use of the "F-word" was involved.

They found someone else, who didn't know what they were doing, and did it wrong. The customer canceled and created a damage claim in the 5 figure range. I still laugh about that...


----------



## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

Guys, I'd be shocked if the installer doesn't get paid for his time AND reimbursed for whatever he had to buy. Remember, n3ntj said this at the bottom of his post.


n3ntj said:


> He had to go to the store and buy these (apparently, Ironwood does not supply this equipment to their installers) after conferring with his boss and returned and installed these.


Maybe the company doesn't pay for these types of items under normal circumstances, but remember this service call wasn't "normal". This call was to fix something THEIR COMPANY screwed up.

Paying for those few supplies, and the tech's wage for doing it all is probably far cheaper than the company would be paying for an insurance claim and/or paying for a REAL LICENSED electrician to fix it.

HSP took the cheap way out and talked the tech into doing the job, EVEN THOUGH what he did is against the law ... providing he's not a licensed electrician ... which for all we know, maybe he actually is!!! Just because he wears his DirecTV hat in the daytime doesn't mean he doesn't still have his electricians license from his nighttime job or previous job.

All we know is he called his boss, and the boss told him to goto the store and get it done, so he did. I'd be shocked if he didn't get paid. If he doesn't get paid, it's his own fault.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Supervolcano said:


> All we know is he called his boss, and the boss told him to goto the store and get it done, so he did. I'd be shocked if he didn't get paid.


I'm sure we'll never know for sure, but I'd gladly give you 10:1 odds if there was a way we could find out.

Screwing DirecTV installers out of money is the #1 pasttime of HSP managers.



> If he doesn't get paid, it's his own fault.


And how do you figure that?

I've worked for 3 HSPs and 2 AFSs. None of them have any mechanism for reimbursing expenses like this. There is no form to fill out, no person to call, no process to follow. If the installer turns in an expense report, it will be circular-filed, because nothing can be done with it. And the local manager sure isn't going to pull money out of his own pocket.

How many years of experience do you have in the HSP system?


----------



## silent ronin (Aug 2, 2007)

n3ntj said:


> The lag bolt penetrated and partially broke the neutral conductor on the 240 Volt line. If he had hit either of the two hot conductors, he probably would have been zapped right then and there. A breaker did trip, and when the neighbor went to turn on the breaker (not knowing why it was suddenly off), the arc occured. I didn't see the arc but I did see the brownish mark it left at the bottom of the dish near the arm for the LNB. Not sure exactly what occurred, but I am going by what the neighbor told me and what I saw for myself (of the dish and the inside of the house).
> 
> I saw the guy over there in the rain (it was heavy rain, not T-storms), and he left after approx. 10 minutes. Apparently, he simply put up the dish and reconnected the old coax to the LNBs. Due to the pouring rain, he apparently was in a hurry or had another appt to get to. He handed my neighbor two white IRD boxes (HR-21 and H-21) and she had to hook them up herself. I thought these guys were supposed to hook up the IRDs, run the setup, setup the remote to use the TV as well, and answer any client questions. The installer did none of these.
> 
> ...


so i guess running his dual cable with messenger (assuming ironwood uses it, i know we do) wasn't good enough? you had to babysit him? not installers are complete imbeciles as some posters on here seem to believe. and i do believe most states require you to be a licensed electrician in order to put in ground rods. if i had been there fixing someone else's mess, anything above what needs to be done to fix it would have been on you. if it's not on my truck, you would have to buy it. and that's because i would never see that money again. i know this because it has happened to me before, but i just chalked it up to lesson learned and not let it happen again. it just burns me up that people have no respect for the next guy. one guy makes a mistake, another guy comes to fix it, and it's not appreciated. people take out their frustrations from the first guy on the next man. do people really think being a prick to the next guy will get them better service or something? not to mention what most people of the second guy is wrong in the first place. i could go all night about this, but i digress.

for now.


----------



## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

IIP said:


> And how do you figure that?
> 
> I've worked for 3 HSPs and 2 AFSs. None of them have any mechanism for reimbursing expenses like this. There is no form to fill out, no person to call, no process to follow. If the installer turns in an expense report, it will be circular-filed, because nothing can be done with it. And the local manager sure isn't going to pull money out of his own pocket.
> 
> How many years of experience do you have in the HSP system?


Zero

My point is he called the boss first.
Then he proceeded to goto store and did the job.

If he didn't think he would get paid, do you think he would have done either of those things? No, he'd have declined and said to get someone else to do it.

Sure, maybe he was a "new guy" and didn't know he wouldn't get paid, BUT TYPICALLY (from what I've been reading in forums for several years) when a HSP encounters a problem with an install (especially a very serious problem, as this undoubtably was), I get the feeling they typically send out one of their most experienced techs or even a supervisor (someone who they KNOW will make the customer happy again) ... and I'd think (for the most part) the experienced techs and supervisors know what they typically will and won't get paid to do (which to me explains why he even called his supervisor in the first place before going to the store).


----------



## Johnnie5000 (Mar 26, 2008)

Supervolcano said:


> Zero
> 
> My point is he called the boss first.
> Then he proceeded to goto store and did the job.
> ...


The phone call more than likely consisted of "Yeah sure fine, just shut them up. Oh and we're not going to reimburse you for whatever jibberish you choose to buy to keep them quite. "

Here's my take on what happened. Tech one comes out and accidentally causes some damage. Big whoop, thats why techs are all insured. 
Tech two comes out to assess the damage and fix what he can. The neighbor comes over and throws a *****fit until tech two goes out and buys a day's pay worth of grounding material just to shut up said neighbor instead of letting the insurance handle it. Tech two doesn't get reimbursed and the neighbor doesn't bother saying "thank you" or treating the tech with the slightest bit of respect.

At least, thats how it sounds to me.


----------



## D-Bamatech (Jun 28, 2006)

Wow.. what a thread...

HSP?

DTV?

OH me!

_"Professional installation"_
... the BIG LIE.


----------



## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

Johnnie5000 said:


> The phone call more than likely consisted of "Yeah sure fine, just shut them up. Oh and we're not going to reimburse you for whatever jibberish you choose to buy to keep them quite. "


I can see that conversation now.

Neighbor- "You are doing it wrong. It needs to be within 20 feet of the ground."

Tech- "The dish doesn't have to be within 20 feet, only the ground block."

Neighbor- "I got my information from the internet. You will do it this way you lazy, good for nothing, McDonalds reject."

Tech- "I'll have to call my boss."

Tech- "Boss, these guys being unreasonable. They are even wanting me to illegally put in a ground rod and back-bond it all the way back to the meter. I can't do that. I'm not a licensed electrician."

Boss- "Let me tell you something you s.o.b. Do whatever it takes to shut these people up. If you don't, you will get a $100 charge-back on top of not getting your $12 for the service call."


----------



## NXStang (Aug 12, 2008)

Johnnie5000 said:


> The phone call more than likely consisted of "Yeah sure fine, just shut them up. Oh and we're not going to reimburse you for whatever jibberish you choose to buy to keep them quite. "
> 
> Here's my take on what happened. Tech one comes out and accidentally causes some damage. Big whoop, thats why techs are all insured.
> Tech two comes out to assess the damage and fix what he can. The neighbor comes over and throws a *****fit until tech two goes out and buys a day's pay worth of grounding material just to shut up said neighbor instead of letting the insurance handle it. Tech two doesn't get reimbursed and the neighbor doesn't bother saying "thank you" or treating the tech with the slightest bit of respect.
> ...


Exactly.

No offense to this "OP" but I'd have told you to take your ass back home. you had NOTHING to do with the job or the work order. Therefore you had NO business being over there. How would you like some annoying flea on your back riding you the whole time???

In fact, had that happened, I would have told the CUSTOMER (not the clown neighbor) that his neighbor was interferring with my work and that I'd be leaving. Then you, the out-of-line neighbor could deal with your now-pissed off neighbor. Because it is the Installer's right to leave any job if they feel threatened/uncomfortable. Plain and simple. Think they can't? Think again been there done that. I don't take **** from someone who has nothing to do with the job Im currently on. Whether it be some annoying neighbor or the apartment maintenance man.

also, FYI, the tech has now broke the law on installing a ground rod. In fact it can now be traced back to your overbearing self. And your neighbor knows this Im sure (as well as company records) so you best hope no lightning hits that house pal.

YOU are the reason technicians get pissed off and hate their jobs half the time. This tech had nothing to do with the original install and some ******* neighbor is breathing down his neck making his life hell. This is just a guy making an honest living and since you have no life, you decided to make his life hell. Nice job pal.


----------



## NXStang (Aug 12, 2008)

TigersFanJJ said:


> I can see that conversation now.
> 
> Neighbor- "You are doing it wrong. It needs to be within 20 feet of the ground."
> 
> ...


LOL except for that last part, thats the truth....the last part here would have been "Well hell, let me roll out there. Go to your next job man."


----------



## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

IIP said:


> Unfortunately, you almost assured that you screwed the second installer out of the money he laid out for that ground rod and wire, which is probably double what he made for the job. As you noted, HSPs do not supply these materials, and have no mechanism in place to reimburse an installer for them. Nor do they pay anywhere near what it would cost to have the installer install them.
> 
> Had it been me, I'd have left as soon as you insisted on this. I don't mean to be a jerk, but there would be no way I would PAY to redo this install.
> 
> Thank god I no longer work in the HSP system! :nono2:


I was at the neighbor's house while the 2nd installer was there because I was asked to be there by my neighbor. She knew Ironwood screwed her the 1st time and since I know what is required, she asked that I quietly babysit the guy. The knows the 1st guy almost burnt the house down; how does she know the 2nd guy was any better?

If your area requires that only electricians install ground rods, then DirecTV has no business installing satellite systems there, according to your logic. Read NEC articles 810 and 820. Very clear what the code requires installers to do when installing satellite dish systems. Its plain black and white. Where's the argument? The Commonwealth of PA confirms to NEC 2005 currently, although the AHJ can overide this with a more stringent code.

The 2nd installer got permission to get the needed materials from his boss, so I am sure he will get re-imbursed. I see way too many dish installs in my line of work that are not done properly, according to what NEC says.

From what I see at least 2 or 3 times a week, Ironwood has no business being in the satellite installation business. The only way I got my install (and my neighbor's install) done properly was to stand over the guy's shoulder, give him a copy of 810 and 820, and instruct him how to do it properly. The Ironwood guy and his boss may not have liked it, but this is what I did. There's a right way to do things, and a wrong way. Most satellite installers appear (at least in my area) to do things the wrong way.

When the 2nd installer was done, I thanked him for doing a good job, the neighbor signed off on the work, and the installer left. Since a few of you weren't there, don't assume you know everything that happened and what was said. My postings were a summary, not a word for word manuscript.

Relax.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

This is interesting...in another similar thread an installer is calling homeowners stupid/lazy for not watching what the installers do and making sure it's done right. In this case installers are telling people to get off their back and go away.

Obviously, no matter what the CUSTOMER does it's wrong.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

n3ntj said:


> If your area requires that only electricians install ground rods, then DirecTV has no business installing satellite systems there, according to your logic.


Back before DirecTV had their own installation program, if you wanted your dish and system installed, you had to hire a satellite installer. Back around 1998, you paid them around $300 to install an 18" round dish and up to 2 "basic" receivers. They would make sure the dish was properly (i.e., NEC) grounded.

Today, DirecTV's pay for contractors is typically $70-85 to install a 30" Slimline with additional supports and install 2 HD-DVRs, running 4 lines of solid-copper cable (at least $20 worth of material right there). This install takes at least twice as long, for less than a third of the pay, with materials costing twice as much, and that is WITHOUT $50 worth of ground rod and 6 ga wire.

Oh, did I mention the typical UPGRADE (installing the Slimline and one HD-DVR on an existing install) pays more like $50? Service call pay is typically $20-25, which is what tech #2 was getting paid.

And in-house techs make a fraction of this, though they have vans and basic tools supplied to them.

Now do you see why I'd have turned around and left?



> Read NEC articles 810 and 820. Very clear what the code requires installers to do when installing satellite dish systems. Its plain black and white. Where's the argument? The Commonwealth of PA confirms to NEC 2005 currently, although the AHJ can overide this with a more stringent code.


Many of us know and fully understand the code. The issue is that neither satellite company's pay rates come anywhere close to covering the costs of full NEC compliance, and virtually everyone knows it, and no one does it. Why do you think that neither installer had a truck full of ground rods and 6 ga wire?



> The 2nd installer got permission to get the needed materials from his boss, so I am sure he will get re-imbursed. I see way too many dish installs in my line of work that are not done properly, according to what NEC says.


I'd be very, VERY surprised if even 10% of NEW installs meet NEC code. And for anything 2 years old or older, that percentage is far, far lower. More than 50% of current DirecTV and Dish systems are totally ungrounded, without any attempt made whatsoever.



> From what I see at least 2 or 3 times a week, Ironwood has no business being in the satellite installation business. The only way I got my install (and my neighbor's install) done properly was to stand over the guy's shoulder, give him a copy of 810 and 820, and instruct him how to do it properly. The Ironwood guy and his boss may not have liked it, but this is what I did. There's a right way to do things, and a wrong way. Most satellite installers appear (at least in my area) to do things the wrong way.


Everything you said is just as true of all of the other HSP contractors. Most of it goes back to the low pay rates and the general poor treatment of installers. If you want good people, you have to pay them well. Most sat installers are paid very, very poorly, so the turn-over rate is very high, making clueless, inexperienced techs the norm. Then there are the guys who make a big investment to get in the business based on false promises, and then stay far too long because they either can't afford to change jobs or because they believe if they stick it out that things will improve. But things don't improve as long as you work in the HSP system.

The cause of all this is the "free installation" ads, which imply that the installation, and thus the installers, are of little value to the customer or anyone else. And that's how they are treated.


----------



## SledDog (May 6, 2007)

n3ntj, you are correct about the NEC requirements...

Only one problem, unless a permit is pulled for the electrical work, an inspector will never see it...

If the inspector never sees it, then the NEC requirement is usless.

Is there a requirement to pull a permit in PA? I don't know. So your "requirement" for grounding is just that, your requirement. If it was me, I would have told you to go buy the materials and install them yourself since there was no inspection. You can quote NEC all you want. 

Just because you may be an EE, does not qualify you to specify a requirement (unless you are consulting on the job and if so let's see the prints), inspect the work that has been done (again prints and you are NOT an inspector), or verify that it meets local codes (again, you are not an inspector).

So you forced a satellite install guy to violate local code because you wanted something installed. I bet local code would require electrical prints, a permit and then an inspection.

At this point, if somethimg went wrong, I'd be looking for you to pay for the next problem associated with this install.

I hope the installer did not drive the ground rod thru a sewer pipe, water line or a septic tank.... The home owner will not know until they have a problem... Maybe you should have pulled the site plan before you made up your prints for the job...

Oh, that's right, you didn't produce any prints because no permit was pulled and it won't be inspected.....


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

IIP said:


> Back before DirecTV had their own installation program, if you wanted your dish and system installed, you had to hire a satellite installer. Back around 1998, you paid them around $300 to install an 18" round dish and up to 2 "basic" receivers. They would make sure the dish was properly (i.e., NEC) grounded.
> 
> Today, DirecTV's pay for contractors is typically $70-85 to install a 30" Slimline with additional supports and install 2 HD-DVRs, running 4 lines of solid-copper cable (at least $20 worth of material right there). This install takes at least twice as long, for less than a third of the pay, with materials costing twice as much, and that is WITHOUT $50 worth of ground rod and 6 ga wire.
> 
> ...


It seems your problem lies with the HSPs and/or DirecTV yet the customers are the ones who suffer. That "free install" is anything but free to the customer. They pay for programming services and the receivers up front lease fee as well as signing a 24-month commitment. Many customers will also give the installer a tip if they provide a quality service.

Additionally, every time you do a job for someone you are marketing your services. You never know...they may appreciate a professional job and offer you something better. Smart business people are always on the lookout for quality people.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Ken S said:


> It seems your problem lies with the HSPs and/or DirecTV yet the customers are the ones who suffer.


You're absolutely right about that, on all counts. That's why I don't work for DirecTV anymore. Now, when I work on DirecTV systems, it is either commercial installs or custom, well-paid residential installs where I *can* do things the right way and not lose money.



> That "free install" is anything but free to the customer. They pay for programming services and the receivers up front lease fee as well as signing a 24-month commitment.


You pay all of that even if you do your own install. Plenty of people here can verify that. And you certainly don't get a separate bill for your install (unless you request custom work). That's "free" by any reasonable definition of the word.

And because you'll not find any black-and-white set of rules and limitations of what that "free" install includes, it is up to the installer to set limits. As far as the HSP is concerned, "you should do whatever it takes" no matter how much it costs the tech personally. But you'd also better not be late to your other 5 jobs today! 



> Many customers will also give the installer a tip if they provide a quality service.


I know. I used to get them constantly, because I did my job right, *within reason*.



> Additionally, every time you do a job for someone you are marketing your services. You never know...they may appreciate a professional job and offer you something better. Smart business people are always on the lookout for quality people.


I still get calls from customers I installed 3 years ago looking for additional work, so, again, I agree.


----------



## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Seems to me that the root of the problem is a seemingly American obsession for getting "it" free, and getting it now. Coupled with the business obsession with subscriber growth.

For example, free satellite system and installation in exchange for 2 years service. Same thing with cell phones, furniture, etc. Everyone wants the stuff now yet do not want to pay upfront for anything.

With Satellite TV this creates the environment where the competitive pressures are centered around providing that "free" install, and as a result we have underpaid contractors and shoddy workmanship because pay rates do not value quality workmanship nor reasonably cover real costs asssociated with same. But hey, subscriber growth went up x points over last year........

A contrasting example: I believe in Europe they do not have the issue around locked, subsidized GSM phones because people pay a regular full price for the phones up front. No need to lock down the phone to your network only when the customer has paid a fair value inthe first place for the device.


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> This is interesting...in another similar thread an installer is calling homeowners stupid/lazy for not watching what the installers do and making sure it's done right. In this case installers are telling people to get off their back and go away.
> 
> Obviously, no matter what the CUSTOMER does it's wrong.


Just what the hell is your problem Ken? Do you get some sick pleasure on twisting others words?

There is a difference in watching what is going on (being involved in the install, ie not being lazy/stupid) and dictating every single move the guy makes.

But back to the 3rd party customer. They still need to get a licensed electrician out there to fix that dryer line. Having the sat tech illegal install a ground rod does nothing to fix an exposed 220/240 line. :eek2:

How are you going to twist my words this time?


----------



## kevred9 (Jul 18, 2008)

SledDog said:


> n3ntj, you are correct about the NEC requirements...
> 
> Only one problem, unless a permit is pulled for the electrical work, an inspector will never see it...
> 
> ...


Good grief. Just because it isn't going to be inspected doesn't mean it doesn't have to meet code!!!

And just because most installs aren't correctly grounded doesn't mean they shouldn't be grounded.

Since the electrical service was damaged, a licensed electrician should have been called and paid for by ironwood (or their insurance).

Connecting to the homeowners side of the electrical ground does not typically require a permit. However, that grounding rod should have at least been prefaced with a "call before you digg 811" call to locate any potential underground utilities...


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

This just seems to be "bad luck". 
What are the odds of finding a live wire? 1:1,000? more?
It seems the mounting bolt nicked one of the two 110 volt lines [2-110 volt @ 180 out of phase + a ground is what is used for a dryer]. The dish grounded through the LNB mount and the coax. "Arcing" was burning the painted LNB/arm.
It seems this system was grounded.

This isn't brain surgery. If anyone feels it is, then find your own contractor, that meets your standards and hire them.

Oh yeah, anybody know a contractor or two? 
Stories like this are "normal", but it's "how" the contractor deals with it that truly shows how good they are.

I'm not "a fan" of Ironwood. My "upgrade" was done by "the installer from hell". 
I had property damage, and every bit of his work needed to be re-done.
"His boss" was out the next day doing everything he could "to make it right".
I think I've seen maybe six techs since and everyone of them has been good. I've done my own QC [after they left] and tried to observe them while working, but stay out of their way too.

Those so quick to judge installers, should spend a day or two "in their shoes" before hand. How else would you "know" what's going on?
Anybody can "Monday morning quarterback".


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Just what the hell is your problem Ken? Do you get some sick pleasure on twisting others words?
> 
> There is a difference in watching what is going on (being involved in the install, ie not being lazy/stupid) and dictating every single move the guy makes.
> 
> ...


RobertE,

What's wrong with you? I think it's your own words you're twisting. You call people stupid/lazy for not being involved...but now if they take part they're wrong too. As you have stated it's the customer's house they have the right to make sure the job is done correctly...that's what you would do...isn't it? 
Quote your own words here...don't use mine if you like.

Maybe you could temper your language and stop calling people "stupid", "lazy", "idiots", etc. like you've done so many times in this forum.

I do agree with you on getting an electrician out there. If that dryer line was damaged that dish sitting on the pole away from the home may be the only thing left standing soon.


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> This just seems to be "bad luck".
> What are the odds of finding a live wire? 1:1,000? more?
> It seems the mounting bolt nicked one of the two 110 volt lines [2-110 volt @ 180 out of phase + a ground is what is used for a dryer]. The dish grounded through the LNB mount and the coax. "Arcing" was burning the painted LNB/arm.
> It seems this system was grounded.
> ...


As usual, spot on and very well said.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

eandras said:


> Since he was hired by the homeowner through Directv to do a proper installtion of the system which would required a ground rod and bonding to the current electrical service ground the Homeowner is required to get an electrical permit with an inspection.


I diagree w/ this. The "contract" is between DirecTV and the customer and DirecTV hired the HSP/installer. It is not the homeowners responsibility to get the electrical permit. The customer contacted DirecTV directly not the HSP.

That would be like hiring a General Contractor and having the homeowner be responsible for the permits for all of the other sub contractors. Other than the homeowner making the property available in a safe manner (no dogs etc.) to the installer, there obligation to anyting else is over.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Does anyone really believe that DirecTV is going to start pulling permits for anything? If that kind of thing is required, the installer is almost always going to just walk away.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Guys, just a friendly reminder .. *play nice* .. Thank You, now .. carry on.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I didn't say they should or would. I'm sure he would walk away. I'm not picking sides on this. Just respectively disagreeing eandras  .


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Guys, just a friendly reminder .. *play nice* .. Thank You, now .. carry on.


With a thread title like this? :lol:


----------



## joe diamond (Feb 28, 2007)

IIP said:


> Does anyone really believe that DirecTV is going to start pulling permits for anything? If that kind of thing is required, the installer is almost always going to just walk away.


Actually...correct!

I was once told to stop work on a pole mount installation. The local building & zoning inspector said what I was doing constituted a "structure" and it needed a permit.

So I walked away ...........and made a few calls. Project delayed.

INSERT LONG & BORING STORY HERE........

So it turned out that the inspector had been in a local club the previous night and had been a little loud etc. The customer was the manager / bouncer and had removed the inspector. The inspector saw me on his tormentor"s lawn and decided pay-back time had arrived...........Didn't work.

But some areas require low voltage licenses or tradesman permits to work in their areas. You can only drill so many pipes and ducts before someone notices.

Joe


----------



## bcrab (Mar 7, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> This just seems to be "bad luck".
> What are the odds of finding a live wire? 1:1,000? more?
> It seems the mounting bolt nicked one of the two 110 volt lines [2-110 volt @ 180 out of phase + a ground is what is used for a dryer]. The dish grounded through the LNB mount and the coax. "Arcing" was burning the painted LNB/arm.
> It seems this system was grounded.
> ...


I guess it to much to expect them to do the job right the first time? :nono2:


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bcrab said:


> I guess it to much to expect them to do the job right the first time? :nono2:


Not at all. Doing things right the first time is always best. "Reality" is not everyone bats 1000.

Do you?
If you do, can you do it and make a profit?

I used to have to "bat 1000", when I worked with Nukes. One mistake would make it a really "bad day".

This is "just TV", if you want a brain surgeon, then get your own specialist. 
I have many friends [and myself] that try to do everything "right the first time".
At $300/hour, I know "we all would" every time.


----------



## DTVTech4U (Sep 5, 2008)

captswifty said:


> I realize that we hear the worst-of-the-worst install horror stories here, but I have to think there are a slew of other customers experiencing these problems that never find the forum and have no idea what to do.
> 
> I might be beating a dead horse, but DirecTV should set up an install hotline, specifically for customers to call in the first 48-96 hours after a problem install, and have it staffed with people that are trained to handle this sort of situation. Put the number right on the form that the installer has the customer sign to make sure they get it. The standard 800 number is staffed by more than capable people, but this is a serious enough situation that it deserves special attention.
> 
> ...


Actualy typicaly that night or the day after they get a call from the 800-531-5000 from a computer asking about their instal experience and if there are any issues to call in to a certan number, if not then put that phone down and start enjoying all that is good with directv. lately its been payton mannon speaking it.


----------



## bcrab (Mar 7, 2007)

Oh please, I didn't know that installing a dish was equal to brain surgery. :sure: 

They are hired to do a job and do it right not half a$$'d. I don't care if your flippin burgers or a brain surgeon, do the job your hired for and do it right.


----------



## JoeF (Aug 20, 2007)

The interesting thing here is that most of these issues have nothing to do with the installer / customer relationship and everything to do with the D* / installation contractor relationship.

The average "Joe" probably doesn't know that the installer doesn't work for D*. Heck, look at the size of that D* logo on the truck!


----------



## DTVTech4U (Sep 5, 2008)

Supervolcano said:


> Guys, I'd be shocked if the installer doesn't get paid for his time AND reimbursed for whatever he had to buy. Remember, n3ntj said this at the bottom of his post.
> 
> Maybe the company doesn't pay for these types of items under normal circumstances, but remember this service call wasn't "normal". This call was to fix something THEIR COMPANY screwed up.
> 
> ...


i'll guarantee he dident get paid, how do i know, i've been in that situation b4. Told boss the 2nd time they tried to pull it, that i'm here waiting, let me know when your comming by with that stuff, as theres no way im buying it. Yea, im gonna lay out several grand for plenum rg6 that i'll possably never use again for this barbershop. Wasent the whole idea of having to sign out the spool and it being in a lockewd cage was that you'd pay me straight pay on the job and i saved a lil on my wire, when we know ur making **** load more for the commercial install then ur paying me, but im not *****in for more, thats whats custom labor is for (hang lcd's, ect)


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bcrab said:


> Oh please, I didn't know that installing a dish was equal to brain surgery. :sure:
> 
> They are hired to do a job and do it right not half a$$'d. I don't care if your flippin burgers or a brain surgeon, do the job your hired for and do it right.


So you can do something 1000 times, in 1000 different locations and never have "bad luck"?

"This" installer simply "nicked" a wire in the wall. It wasn't "half assed", but "bad luck". He should have had x-ray eyes?

This just doesn't seem "that realistic".

YMMV, but this type of "thinking" doesn't seem to fit "the working world" that's out there.


----------



## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> This is "just TV", if you want a brain surgeon, then get your own specialist.
> I have many friends [and myself] that try to do everything "right the first time".
> At $300/hour, I know "we all would" every time.


I know the end result is just TV but the means are not. If there were no safety issues then there would be no codes and no requirements for grounding, etc.

Remember, the original post was about nicking a electrical line and an ensuing arc on the dish that made a burn mark. Hmm, sounds almost as important as brain surgery in that there could be a fire.

Easy to trivialize if someone doesn't get ESPN HD because of bad alignment. Hard to trivialize safety issues like this one.


----------



## DTVTech4U (Sep 5, 2008)

TigersFanJJ said:


> I can see that conversation now.
> 
> Neighbor- "You are doing it wrong. It needs to be within 20 feet of the ground."
> 
> ...


frogot one part, if you walk, you better be walking as your not going to have any work tomorrow, or the next or the next, bc you'll be fired. I have the FOM,ect up my ass right now bc of what happened and the possablity of serious injury, i dont care if you have to be there till midnight to satisfy them.

Tech: thats not right, why isent **** back out here fixing his ****

boss: because i dont have the time to research who the hell was there last time, im too busy ****ing my bf/gf in my office right now, which btw u inturpted and i wont forget that when and if i route you tomorrow.


----------



## bcrab (Mar 7, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> So you can do something 1000 times, in 1000 different locations and never have "bad luck"?
> 
> "This" installer simply "nicked" a wire in the wall. It wasn't "half assed", but "bad luck". He should have had x-ray eyes?
> 
> ...


I agree it was bad luck hitting the wire. The half assed part of leaving without helping the customer setup, update the IRD's or at least check that the old cabling worked.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bcrab said:


> I agree it was bad luck hitting the wire. The half assed part of leaving without helping the customer setup, update the IRD's or at least check that the old cabling worked.


I too will agree with that.
Clearly he'd been over booked and "was booking" as fast as he could, to catch up.


----------



## mookittybark (Aug 7, 2008)

Who needs Directv when I have a good "drama" on DBS Talk! LOL :lol: Sorry Had to say it...


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

mookittybark said:


> Who needs Directv when I have a good "drama" on DBS Talk! LOL :lol: Sorry Had to say it...


[adds one more to my trouble maker list] :lol: :lol:


----------



## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

SledDog said:


> n3ntj, you are correct about the NEC requirements...
> 
> Only one problem, unless a permit is pulled for the electrical work, an inspector will never see it...
> 
> ...


Our township does not require permits for installing satellite systems nor driving a ground rod. I should know, since I am one of the inspectors. Maybe you should know the facts before making assumptions.

D*'s own professional installation documentation says 'the system will be grounded per local/NEC requirements'. A customer reading this contract assumes this is actually being done and being done correctly.



SledDog said:


> So you forced a satellite install guy to violate local code because you wanted something installed. I bet local code would require electrical prints, a permit and then an inspection.


Wrong again. The install guy did not violate the code by grounding it properly. He was going to violate the code by not grounding it. He was planning on connecting the ground of the system to a nearby exterior water spigot. This is not permitted by code (strike 1), plus we have PEX plumbing here, so plastic does not conduct electricity (strike 2).



SledDog said:


> At this point, if somethimg went wrong, I'd be looking for you to pay for the next problem associated with this install.
> 
> I hope the installer did not drive the ground rod thru a sewer pipe, water line or a septic tank.... The home owner will not know until they have a problem... Maybe you should have pulled the site plan before you made up your prints for the job... Oh, that's right, you didn't produce any prints because no permit was pulled and it won't be inspected.....


PA 1 Call is not needed for driving ground rods, but rather for excavation (that means digging holes). Our utilities (water, sewer) are out the front of the home underground and he knows where the service lateral is. We don't have septic systems here.

Let's look at this another way. Is D* or Ironwood liable if a home burns or someone is injured because of a faulty install? I hope they have good insurance because I am sure this isn't the 1st time something like this has happened.

Is D* or Ironwood liable for damage done because the system is not properly grounded? All you need is a nearby lighting strike to induce voltage which can then damage an IRD or something else inside the home.

The 2005 NEC (and 2006 IRC) is law in PA. I have documentation from D* that says the installers will be aware of the local codes. Apparently, they are not, at least around here. Maybe PA needs to require installers to be licensed. This could protect the consumer from shoddy installs like what happened here.

SledDog, you're really getting all wrapped up with this issue.

The basic idea here is that the 1st installer made an error with a faulty install that nearly started a fire and the client needed to pay an electrician overtime on Sunday to fix the problem the 1st installer caused. The installer didn't use a device (such as a stud finder) to verify where the stud was so he could be assured he was installing the dish securely into a stud. The installer didn't even think to check the inside of the wall he was about to drill into to see if anything of importance was on the other side. The client was very scared that her house was going to burn down after what happened after the 1st install attempt. A stud finder or voltage sniffer are pretty cheap tools.

The 2nd installer didn't know the grounding requirements that he is supposed to follow (per local code) and didn't have the proper equipment to do the job properly. The client asked me to supervise the 2nd installer since she had no reason to think this guy knew anything more than the 1st guy.


----------



## Johnnie5000 (Mar 26, 2008)

n3ntj said:


> The basic idea here is that the 1st installer made an error with a faulty install that nearly started a fire and the client needed to pay an electrician overtime on Sunday to fix the problem the 1st installer caused.


Thats why all installers are insured. You could have let the insurance company deal with it without making some poor fool spend his hard earned money on fixing a problem he didn't cause.


----------



## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Johnnie5000 said:


> Thats why all installers are insured. You could have let the insurance company deal with it without making some poor fool spend his hard earned money on fixing a problem he didn't cause.


I don't understand this comment.

1) If this is my house, the problem is getting fixed immediately by a licensed electrician and then the insurance company can reimburse me. Why should anyone wait for an insurance company to process a claim when a deadly hazard exists. The problem will be properly documented and the responsible party will pay.

2) The installation company is going to come back out and reinstall the dish properly.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I can't believe I'm standing up for Ironwood. :eek2:

This "fire hazard" was zero with the breaker off/tripped.

Having an Electrician out on Sunday, would only have been needed to use the dryer, if it was that important to be used that day.

While this shouldn't have happened, this thread, topic, the "home owner", mostly seems to be all "overreacting" [IMO].


----------



## Alebob911 (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm sure most everyone who is here would agree that if something like this happened to them they would want it fixed ASAP even if it meant a weekend service call. Lets face it, they got more then just a dish swapped and got lucky nothing serious happened. If it was me that this happened to, I would be calling an electrician then D* to report it.

My take on this installer issue that came out in this thread,

I am so glad that the installers here don't work in EMS!! If you can't do it right then don't do it at all! If your not happy with your current occupation or the terms of compensation, EDUCATE yourself! Don't blame others for you current working conditions.



veryoldschool said:


> I can't believe I'm standing up for Ironwood. :eek2:
> 
> This "fire hazard" was zero with the breaker off/tripped.
> 
> ...


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Alebob911 said:


> I'm sure most everyone who is here would agree that if something like this happened to them they would want it fixed ASAP even if it meant a weekend service call. Lets face it, they got more then just a dish swapped and got lucky nothing serious happened. If it was me that this happened to, I would be calling an electrician then D* to report it.
> 
> My take on this installer issue that came out in this thread,
> 
> I am so glad that the installers here don't work in EMS!! If you can't do it right then don't do it at all! If your not happy with your current occupation or the terms of compensation, EDUCATE yourself! Don't blame others for you current working conditions.


We all have our own priorities. 
I live 50 miles from any "big city", so have learned to wait at times for things I can't do myself. 
I could wait to use my dryer for a month, but waiting five days for AT&T to replace my DSL modem, now that was simply criminal.


----------



## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

wow from all this reading almost makes me wanna call dtv to come back and ground my dish


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

newsposter said:


> wow from all this reading almost makes me wanna call dtv to come back and ground my dish


Then it can double as a lightning rod. :lol:


----------



## Alebob911 (Mar 22, 2007)

I have a wife a 2 girls so although not my priority, you can see my problem.



veryoldschool said:


> We all have our own priorities.
> I live 50 miles from any "big city", so have learned to wait at times for things I can't do myself.
> I could wait to use my dryer for a month, but waiting five days for AT&T to replace my DSL modem, now that was simply criminal.


----------



## Johnnie5000 (Mar 26, 2008)

say-what said:


> I don't understand this comment.
> 
> 1) If this is my house, the problem is getting fixed immediately by a licensed electrician and then the insurance company can reimburse me.


Thats what I meant.


----------



## woodybeetle (Feb 28, 2008)

eandras said:


> Since he was hired by the homeowner through Directv to do a proper installtion of the system which would required a ground rod and bonding to the current electrical service ground the Homeowner is required to get an electrical permit with an inspection.


Satellite dish installs are not a permitted action. In no way shape or form is a satellite installed allowed to bond an additional ground rod to an existing system.
The only time a satellite install is permitted is when it is in a commercial establishment and then we require a bonded #6 wire to the dish to be supplied by the electrician as well as one in the closet the coax goes into. The NEC codes are for the safety of all. As far as the consumer knows, its just a rule book. I have news for you, it saves lives and equipment. If you drive an additional rod and do not bond it correctly you can create a difference in the grounding properties and actually drive a lightning strike to the house.
Another thing to keep in mind is that electricians are required to be certified, apprenticeshipped and tested. It takes years, sat installers are trained for a max of 4 weeks. Do you really want them bonding an additional ground point?


----------



## eandras (Feb 16, 2007)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> I diagree w/ this. The "contract" is between DirecTV and the customer and DirecTV hired the HSP/installer. It is not the homeowners responsibility to get the electrical permit. The customer contacted DirecTV directly not the HSP.
> 
> That would be like hiring a General Contractor and having the homeowner be responsible for the permits for all of the other sub contractors. Other than the homeowner making the property available in a safe manner (no dogs etc.) to the installer, there obligation to anyting else is over.


The Homeowner is responsible to pull all required permits. The Contractor (Or General Contractor) only acts as an agent for the homeowner. The Homeowner would have to have it spelled out in a contract to have the GC take out the permits.


----------



## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

n3ntj said:


> He removed the dish, installed a new Slimline on a pole out in the yard and I had to babysit him to instruct him how to ground the dish. Since it was approx. 25' from the home's electrical service ground, I asked that he install a 8' ground rod and bond this new rod to the electrical service ground rod with 6 AWG. I printed out articles 810 and 820 of the 2005 NEC to give him a good read. He had to go to the store and buy these (apparently, Ironwood does not supply this equipment to their installers) after conferring with his boss and returned and installed these.





n3ntj said:


> If your area requires that only electricians install ground rods, then DirecTV has no business installing satellite systems there, according to your logic. Read NEC articles 810 and 820. Very clear what the code requires installers to do when installing satellite dish systems. Its plain black and white. Where's the argument? The Commonwealth of PA confirms to NEC 2005 currently, although the AHJ can overide this with a more stringent code.


Per Article 820:


> Make the primary protector-grounding conductor as short as practicable. In one- and two-family dwellings, it must not exceed 20 ft in length.


Nothing wrong with RobertE's logic. Most installs can be done per NEC without installing another ground rod. In plain black and white, the 20' is from the ground block to grounding point. It's not from the dish to the ground point.



n3ntj said:


> Since a few of you weren't there, don't assume you know everything that happened and what was said.





n3ntj said:


> The 2nd installer got permission to get the needed materials from his boss, so I am sure he will get re-imbursed.


Pot. Meet kettle.


----------



## JoeF (Aug 20, 2007)

Looks like there is some confusion between pulling a permit and complying with code. 

1. You don't need a permit for a sat dish install.

2. Whatever work is done MUST be up to code. No matter who does it.

A lot of posts here seem to imply that you don't need to meet code if there was no permit.


----------



## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

JoeF said:


> Looks like there is some confusion between pulling a permit and complying with code.
> 
> 1. You don't need a permit for a sat dish install.
> 
> ...


I read through this entire thread again. I only found one post that implied that (as I posted in another thread). That one post can be found here. There were a couple of other posts that said installers don't make enough to be purchasing ground rods, etc. but they didn't say that the NEC shouldn't be met.


----------



## JoeF (Aug 20, 2007)

TigersFanJJ said:


> ... but they didn't say that the NEC shouldn't be met.


Agreed, but they were giving excuses for why they (knowingly) weren't meeting code. The real discussion is: who's fault is it, and who should fix it?

D*
HSP
Installer
Customer 
City inspector
City permit dept 
Change the NEC to cover TV wiring


----------



## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

JoeF said:


> Agreed, but they were giving excuses for why they (knowingly) weren't meeting code. The real discussion is: who's fault is it, and who should fix it?
> 
> D*
> HSP
> ...


Change to the NEC isn't going to happen

City inspector and City Permit Dept aren't responsible for fixing stuff that doesn't meet code (even if they are the ones to note that something fails to meet code).

Customer is ultimately responsible for fixing stuff at their home which does not meet code. But the customer hired DirecTV to provide code-compliant satellite installation. Therefore DirecTV is responsible for ensuring that code is met in the first place, and fixing non-compliant installations so that they meet code.

From the customer's perspective, there is no difference between DirecTV and the HSPs/Installers which were hired by DirecTV. The customer hired DirecTV. If DirecTV hired inappropriate HSPs/Installers, then it is still DirecTV's responsibility.

The customer has no control over the compensation plan negotiated between DirecTV, the HSP and the installer. If DirecTV does not provide enough compensation to allow the installer to comply with code, that is an issue between DirecTV and the HSP/Installer. If DirecTV can not afford to provide code-compliant installations at the price they agreed to with the customer, then DirecTV should not have agreed to the price.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Alebob911 said:


> I am so glad that the installers here don't work in EMS!! If you can't do it right then don't do it at all! If your not happy with your current occupation or the terms of compensation, EDUCATE yourself! Don't blame others for you current working conditions.


If all DirecTV installers followed your advice, there WOULDN'T be any DirecTV installers. Most installers follow your advice: they quit very soon after starting. The ones that stay are either brand new and clueless, or get real good at scamming customers out of all kinds of things (like the "drive by" installation that the first installer did). At the current compensation levels, the percentage of experienced, knowledgable installers is tiny.


----------



## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

IIP said:


> If all DirecTV installers followed your advice, there WOULDN'T be any DirecTV installers. Most installers follow your advice: they quit very soon after starting. The ones that stay are either brand new and clueless, or get real good at scamming customers out of all kinds of things (like the "drive by" installation that the first installer did). At the current compensation levels, the percentage of experienced, knowledgable installers is tiny.


Drive by installation :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

Good discussion guys. Almost sorry I made the OP, for a while there. Glad it has returned to civility. 

I think we can all agree that installers need better training.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

ironwood said:


> Drive by installation :lol: :lol: :lol:


I've called it that for years, when a tech just drops off receivers to a customer and tells them to hook them up themselves.

One of my installers did that once, despite being told never to do so. But what he did was worse: he dropped them off on the guy's porch (he claims the customer said he would be home "soon") and left them. They were never activated. My tech got to pay full MSRP for those receivers ($850 or so), and it was a good lesson for all of my techs.


----------



## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

veryoldschool said:


> Then it can double as a lightning rod. :lol:


i'm hoping since my ungrounded OTA is about 30ft higher and i have at least 3 100 ft trees that lightning hits one of them first though!

does the protection plan cover lighting strikes for all my equipment


----------



## joe diamond (Feb 28, 2007)

IIP said:


> I've called it that for years, when a tech just drops off receivers to a customer and tells them to hook them up themselves.
> 
> One of my installers did that once, despite being told never to do so. But what he did was worse: he dropped them off on the guy's porch (he claims the customer said he would be home "soon") and left them. They were never activated. My tech got to pay full MSRP for those receivers ($850 or so), and it was a good lesson for all of my techs.


OOOOOOh!

I thought it meant driving by the house next to the one you drove by yesterday and last month.............note the heavy forest cover and report NLOS.

Or even worse you hear "...you are just as bad as the last one..! Unless the trees move the dish can't see squat.

I did one deal where the cx stated that the CSR said he could install his eq himself. I stated that I would have to be present for the activation. I rigged a 3 x 4 to an existing dish, activated the 4 D-10s with the jumpers and one TV.......got the paper work signed and hit the road. On the way out he asked about some "spare" cable. I referred him to a Home Depot.

I suspect when customers will not give you access to their residence there is a drug or porn deal going on.

Techs just hand over the boxes?..........who hired them & who trained them?
What happened to the value of a person's integrity?

Joe


----------



## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

woodybeetle said:


> If you drive an additional rod and do not bond it correctly you can create a difference in the grounding properties and actually drive a lightning strike to the house


While it is never a good idea to have multiple isolated grounds in a house, it will not "drive" lightning to strike. I would call that a "wife's tale" or "urban legend", but honestly, the idea that lightning can be driven and directed based on ground potential and static charges is so ingrained, it goes beyond that. Of course that does not make it any more correct. I used to have a sailboat and the ideas about dissipating static electricity to avoid "attracting" lightning were quite amusing. Lightning does not seek out static electrical fields. It seeks the path of least resistance and having multiple grounding points will have no effect on that. In fact, the ground wire itself will have no effect on a lightning strike at all. It's sort of like saying you are going to protect something from a hurricane by covering it with a plastic garbage bag and duct tape.


----------



## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

rudeney said:


> While it is never a good idea to have multiple isolated grounds in a house, it will not "drive" lightning to strike. I would call that a "wife's tale" or "urban legend", but honestly, the idea that lightning can be driven and directed based on ground potential and static charges is so ingrained, it goes beyond that. Of course that does not make it any more correct. I used to have a sailboat and the ideas about dissipating static electricity to avoid "attracting" lightning were quite amusing. Lightning does not seek out static electrical fields. It seeks the path of least resistance and having multiple grounding points will have no effect on that. In fact, the ground wire itself will have no effect on a lightning strike at all. It's sort of like saying you are going to protect something from a hurricane by covering it with a plastic garbage bag and duct tape.


Don't be dissin' duct tape. 

:lol:


----------



## sylvanir (Sep 14, 2007)

There is only one true way to completely eliminate the chance of lightning strikes. Move to a planet (or other celestial body of your choice) with no atmosphere; and, hence, no weather. As long as you live on Earth, you are subject to Mama Nature and all her fury.


----------



## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

rudeney said:


> While it is never a good idea to have multiple isolated grounds in a house, it will not "drive" lightning to strike. I would call that a "wife's tale" or "urban legend", but honestly, the idea that lightning can be driven and directed based on ground potential and static charges is so ingrained, it goes beyond that. Of course that does not make it any more correct. I used to have a sailboat and the ideas about dissipating static electricity to avoid "attracting" lightning were quite amusing. Lightning does not seek out static electrical fields. It seeks the path of least resistance and having multiple grounding points will have no effect on that. In fact, the ground wire itself will have no effect on a lightning strike at all. It's sort of like saying you are going to protect something from a hurricane by covering it with a plastic garbage bag and duct tape.


Correct. All that bonding the multiple ground rods together does is help ensure that each is at an equal potential.


----------



## DTVTech4U (Sep 5, 2008)

IIP said:


> I've called it that for years, when a tech just drops off receivers to a customer and tells them to hook them up themselves.
> 
> One of my installers did that once, despite being told never to do so. But what he did was worse: he dropped them off on the guy's porch (he claims the customer said he would be home "soon") and left them. They were never activated. My tech got to pay full MSRP for those receivers ($850 or so), and it was a good lesson for all of my techs.


moron, thats why the tech should of activated them first, then they became the customers lybility


----------



## skylinkman (Aug 28, 2007)

Witholding judgement until the rest of the story can be told.

A good number of things just don't add up:

A HR2x takes 7 minutes to cold boot.

If he drilled through the 240 dryer line, why didn't the breaker/fuse pop?

If he only nicked the 240 line, how did the current get from the 240 line to the dish? The jacket on coax is non-conductive.

If it was a lag bolt was driven into the 240 line, then again, why didn't the breaker/fuse pop?

Not taking away from the seriousness of hitting a live electrical line, or what n3ntj is saying, but we are missing some vital info, IMHO.

VERY AGREEABLE......COME ON IN THE MIDDLE OF A HURRICANE?....  :nono:


----------



## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

skylinkman said:


> Witholding judgement until the rest of the story can be told.
> 
> A good number of things just don't add up:
> 
> ...


Next time read the whole thread before replying.
Those questions were answered already.


----------



## lander215 (May 1, 2008)

Supervolcano said:


> Next time read the whole thread before replying.
> Those questions were answered already.


and perhaps you should note that he was simply quoting those questions from a prior post...

Here we go again with all the crying about the poor underpaid installers. Boo-fricking-hoo. Get another job then you bunch of babies.

The original installer screwed up, big time. He could have killed people, including himself. He got lucky, and he should have gotten fired (if he didn't). If he didn't, maybe next time Darwin will weed him out for the rest of us.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lander215 said:


> and perhaps you should note that he was simply quoting those questions from a prior post...
> 
> Here we go again with all the crying about the poor underpaid installers. Boo-fricking-hoo. Get another job then you bunch of babies.
> 
> The original installer screwed up, big time. He could have killed people, including himself. He got lucky, and he should have gotten fired (if he didn't). If he didn't, maybe next time Darwin will weed him out for the rest of us.


Had they read post #47, most of their questions would have answers.
Glad you've never had "bad luck" doing anything.


----------



## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

lander215 said:


> and perhaps you should note that he was simply quoting those questions from a prior post...


Exactly my point, they were questions in post #9 WHICH WERE ANSWERED IN POST #19.

What's the point of quoting a post full of questions that have already been answered?



lander215 said:


> Here we go again with all the crying about the poor underpaid installers. Boo-fricking-hoo. Get another job then you bunch of babies.


OK, so you want to play with ME now? Why don't *YOU* now go back and read the whole thread (like your friend needs to) but note what all *MY REPLIES* say!!!

I'm NOT an installer.
I HAVEN'T cried about the underpaid installers.
I have DEFENDED that the HSP and/or DirecTV needed to recify the situation.

And now I'm shaking my head at IDIOTIC POSTERS who have nothing to say.




lander215 said:


> The original installer screwed up, big time. He could have killed people, including himself. He got lucky, and he should have gotten fired (if he didn't). If he didn't, maybe next time Darwin will weed him out for the rest of us.


He made a mistake.
I suppose you've never made a mistake in your life before.
You get it fixed and move on.
I just hope the installer learned from his mistake.


----------



## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

IIP said:


> I've called it that for years, when a tech just drops off receivers to a customer and tells them to hook them up themselves.
> 
> One of my installers did that once, despite being told never to do so. But what he did was worse: he dropped them off on the guy's porch (he claims the customer said he would be home "soon") and left them. They were never activated. My tech got to pay full MSRP for those receivers ($850 or so), and it was a good lesson for all of my techs.


I thought drive-by installation would be the one when a tech installs a dish and connects it with cable to the receivers. It works when a tech leaves. It doesnt necessarily work the next day or any other day thereafter.


----------



## lander215 (May 1, 2008)

Supervolcano said:


> Exactly my point, they were questions in post #9 WHICH WERE ANSWERED IN POST #19.
> 
> What's the point of quoting a post full of questions that have already been answered?
> 
> ...


Did it ever occur to you that he was reading the thread...read that post and wanted to reply to it? It's ok for him to do that...he quoted the post he was referring to and commented on it. Happens all the time, so I'm not clear why you decided to even comment on it in the first place. 

Paragraph two wasn't aimed at you...thus the new paragraph. But thank you for your support.

I've made plenty of mistakes...but when they involve risking the lives of others, they aren't quite the same in my book. This guy is dangerous and careless...if he does it again, I hope it's only at his expense and not at the expense of his "customers".


----------

