# Direct TV next generation HD TIVO DVR



## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

Part of this content was also posted at the AVS forum, 

If you want a next generation TIVO HD DVR (AKA the TIVO 3) with Direct TV it's time to get off your duff and call Direct TV and express yourself to a CSR at Direct TV.

When asking several coworkers and friends who have Tivo's, they were quite surprised that Direct TV will not have a HD TIVO in the near future. They all said they would follow where the Tivo 3 goes and drop Direct TV for the service provider that supports TIVO in HD.

What that tells me is Direct TV will lose large customer base. We put a sell order on 600 shares this (afternoon) two business days ago. If we do not see a change in direction with Direct TV in the very near future we will sell the rest.

VOTE WITH YOUR CHECKBOOK, If they are not selling it they will fix it fast. They have to pay thier bills too just like we do,


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## vlj9r (Nov 23, 2005)

I terminated my service on Sunday.

Rico

PS Add one churn to their stats.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Two things to keep in mind...

1) IF DirecTV decided to build a 2nd generation HD-TiVo unit... you are probably looking at least a year, probably even two or more before it would see the commercial market

2) This is not "new" information, this has been known for probably a year now. 

Not saying your "600" shares isn't big (it is to you).... the big boys out there... the "investors" have known this for a very long time. So the stock numbers won't swing much with this "revelation"


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## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Two things to keep in mind...
> 
> 1) IF DirecTV decided to build a 2nd generation HD-TiVo unit... you are probably looking at least a year, probably even two or more before it would see the commercial market
> 
> ...


With due respect most of you all here at the forum are and have been aware of Direct TV's decision to drop Tivo. The average consumer "is NOT aware" and Direct TV is expecting that sector to bend over and take what they offer up the rear.

When our family was an early adopter of TIVO it was not uncommon for someone visiting our home to go straight out the next day and buy a TIVO and order Direct TV.

In the last week I have had conversation with most of our friends and co-worker's who have adapted to the TIVO format. Approximately 15% of them have made the HD jump including our household. The other 85% have been making plans to upgrade to HD in the near future.

100% of the people we know will "NOT" subscribe with Direct TV in HD if Direct TV will not offer a TIVO HD DVR they will go with the service that offers the TIVO 3 HD DVR.

They will inform their friends and so forth and so on the word will travel "fast" throughout the consumer world.

And that's the real story.

You guys can "poo poo it all you want" but the average consumer does not like taking it up the "rear" and we "VOTE WITH OUR CHECKBOOK" we just will not buy it.

I am aware that 600 of our 1200 shares are not all that important. But I am protecting against loss in value and I am sure there are a several other small change stockholders that are intrested in that aspect also. Add that up and it makes it a big "whole".

WE VOTE WITH OUR CHECKBOOK AND WE WILL NOT BUY IT

If they are not selling it, then they will fix it really quick

And if 2.5 million Direct TV TIVO subscribers are not enoughe for Direct TV to make a change reinstate TIVO.

Consider this, if Comcast gets thier hands on them and adapts 15 million more to TIVO. Direct TV stock will hit an all time low guaranteed.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Brad Martin said:


> The average consumer "is NOT aware" and Direct TV is expecting that sector to bend over and take what they offer up the rear.


The average DirecTV HD consumer is already painfully aware that they can't receive forthcoming HD on DirecTiVo units. All those who have HD locals (remember that DirecTV claims to offer HD LIL to 94% of the US population) know that they cannot record their satellite delivered HD locals at all!


> 100% of the people we know will "NOT" subscribe with Direct TV in HD if Direct TV will not offer a TIVO HD DVR they will go with the service that offers the TIVO 3 HD DVR.


Probably not a very scientific sampling when you survey a group of friends (an investment club perhaps?) who already pledge allegiance to TiVo.


> They will inform their friends and so forth and so on the word will travel "fast" throughout the consumer world.


Who will probably reply: "Where have you been? We've had an HD DVR from our provider (Cable, E*) for months now and we love it."


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I think one item DTV is missing is the fact that nothing would stop them from offering their DVR+ units AND DTivo units. If customers wants the Tivo interface and Tivo Series 3 functionality why not let the customer purchase those? Why not let the customer decide?

You want a free DVR and it's your first DVR, fine, get a DVR+. If you're a Tivo fan and are willing to pay for a Tivo, why not make it available?

Does GM sell only one model and color car? This all seems like a Marketing 101 issue to me but for some reason DTV wants to dictate what the customer wants.


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## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

Eco 101, the Marginal Propensity to Consume.


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## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

harsh said:


> The average DirecTV HD consumer is already painfully aware that they can't receive forthcoming HD on DirecTiVo units. All those who have HD locals (remember that DirecTV claims to offer HD LIL to 94% of the US population) know that they cannot record their satellite delivered HD locals at all!Probably not a very scientific sampling when you survey a group of friends (an investment club perhaps?) who already pledge allegiance to TiVo.Who will probably reply: "Where have you been? We've had an HD DVR from our provider (Cable, E*) for months now and we love it."


We opted to pay the $49.95 and insure no cancellation fee and dropped E* HD after 30 days it totaly sucked and went back to D*.

But when the next generation HD PVR/DVR comes out we go with the TIVO hands down.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Not having done any research, I have a question.

Will you be able to pair up, say, an H20 HD receiver with the TiVo Series 3 DVR? Like I said, I've done no research and this is just based on my assumption that the Series 3 is/will be an HD compatible DVR. Please be nice if I'm way off base?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Brad Martin said:


> We opted to pay the $49.95 and insure no cancellation fee and dropped E* HD after 30 days it totaly sucked and went back to D*.


Which leaves you with Comcast, no? What are you going to do when you find out that it sucks?

According to an article in the March 20th Newsweek, TiVo now has only a 25% share of the DVR market and that number is declining. Of that 25% number, 66% of those are DirecTiVo units (this is probably overstated due to inroads of the NDS units and the inability to handle MPEG4, but that's what the article said). Other than agreeing not to sue DirecTV, TiVo isn't doing them any favors. In fact, by developing a unit that won't work with DirecTV HD, TiVo is slapping DirecTV, the company who arguably sustained them during their rise to popularity, in the face.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

JLucPicard said:


> Will you be able to pair up, say, an H20 HD receiver with the TiVo Series 3 DVR?


Not for HD content.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

harsh said:


> Which leaves you with Comcast, no? What are you going to do when you find out that it sucks?
> 
> According to an article in the March 20th Newsweek, TiVo now has only a 25% share of the DVR market and that number is declining. Of that 25% number, 66% of those are DirecTiVo units (this is probably overstated due to inroads of the NDS units and the inability to handle MPEG4, but that's what the article said). Other than agreeing not to sue DirecTV, TiVo isn't doing them any favors. In fact, by developing a unit that won't work with DirecTV HD, TiVo is slapping DirecTV, the company who arguably sustained them during their rise to popularity, in the face.


Watch the VOIP industry, Vonage is synonymous with VOIP, just like TiVo is synonymous with DVR. Just watch the market share of Vonage deplete while consumers defect to and new consumers to the industry go with other providers that don't necessarily provide a cheaper/better service.

Voice Over IP is not something I'm into I just like to watch the market from an outside prospective especially considering the #2 VOIP provider in the country is TW.

The VOIP and DVR industries are very similar and it will be interesting keeping an eye on these two.


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## Marvin (Sep 14, 2003)

I Dont have access to anything other than Satellite for TV..so if Directv doesn't offer a version of Tivo that records MPEG4 then I won't have a Tivo, I'll just have a DVR, although its going to be a while before Im going to have to ditch the HD-Tivo since I have no need to upgrade for HD Locals and I'll only be forced to upgrade when they finally cut off MPEG 2 HD channels. I really like the HD-Tivo but with no other option its not like Im going to give up watching tv because I can't have a Tivo.


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## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

harsh said:


> Which leaves you with Comcast, no? What are you going to do when you find out that it sucks?
> 
> According to an article in the March 20th Newsweek, TiVo now has only a 25% share of the DVR market and that number is declining. Of that 25% number, 66% of those are DirecTiVo units (this is probably overstated due to inroads of the NDS units and the inability to handle MPEG4, but that's what the article said). Other than agreeing not to sue DirecTV, TiVo isn't doing them any favors. In fact, by developing a unit that won't work with DirecTV HD, TiVo is slapping DirecTV, the company who arguably sustained them during their rise to popularity, in the face.


It will be a "Cold Day in Hell" that we would ever consider Comcast as a service provider. We found out and know for fact Comcast "Sucks" big time a very long time ago,

Just go OTA and not buy it and find a personal software solution. Get basic service so we can get the game we want to view although it may not be in HD.

(sorry for the late reply the wife and I went to Tulum for a few days on the beach in paradise, no computers , no cell, no TV, just us and it was fantastic.)


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## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

Steve Mehs said:


> Watch the VOIP industry, Vonage is synonymous with VOIP, just like TiVo is synonymous with DVR. Just watch the market share of Vonage deplete while consumers defect to and new consumers to the industry go with other providers that don't necessarily provide a cheaper/better service.
> 
> Voice Over IP is not something I'm into I just like to watch the market from an outside prospective especially considering the #2 VOIP provider in the country is TW.
> 
> The VOIP and DVR industries are very similar and it will be interesting keeping an eye on these two.


You are exactly right. ATT and Verizon are jumping on this aspect big time.


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## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

Marvin said:


> I Dont have access to anything other than Satellite for TV..so if Directv doesn't offer a version of Tivo that records MPEG4 then I won't have a Tivo, I'll just have a DVR, although its going to be a while before Im going to have to ditch the HD-Tivo since I have no need to upgrade for HD Locals and I'll only be forced to upgrade when they finally cut off MPEG 2 HD channels. I really like the HD-Tivo but with no other option its not like Im going to give up watching tv because I can't have a Tivo.


We have an option. Let customer service know what your feelings are. With enoughe input they will fix it. Trust me it is more expensive for them to get new customers and return customers than it is to keep you on board.

I wont give up TV cause there is no Tivo but they most certainly wont get my subscription if they drop it.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Brad Martin said:


> We have an option. Let customer service know what your feelings are. With enoughe input they will fix it. Trust me it is more expensive for them to get new customers and return customers than it is to keep you on board.
> 
> I wont give up TV cause there is no Tivo but they most certainly wont get my subscription if they drop it.


Why don't you just go with an S3 Tivo then it doesn't matter what cable company or such that you use as long as they have cable card. No matter how much you complain there is most likely never going to be a new Tivo for DirecTV their in house box is their present and future. I like Tivo as much as the next person but the R15 and most likely it's HD counterpart aren't that bad.


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## junebughunter (May 22, 2006)

Sattelite and Cable providers are always going to be un-consumer friendly types of business. It's just how they operate...they are known for not listening to what people want. I seriously doubt this will ever change.

To be honest the direction I'd like to see television services go is on demand content and downloadable content.

Why do I need to wait until Tuesday to watch some show at 9pm. TiVo revolutionized this by letting me record but I think overtime it's going to be about "when it's available to watch" and not "when it airs for the first time"

TiVo however has done IMO a crappy job. I don't think it's there fault. I think it's because a good company is drowning in a sea of shady business (aka Comcast, DISH, DirecTV) they all suck.

I am going to just be a realist and enjoy what is offered to me until something better comes around. Comcast is to expensive for what you get (in my area), DirecTV is cheap...I'll take their HD DVR when it comes out or until TiVo actually offers something that doesn't require me to model my Telivision setup around them.

Currently I've got an HR20 in one room, three D11's and a TiVo Series 2 in my bedroom.


What I don't understand is why dont Sattelite providers offer cable cards too? Telivision could be so much better...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

junebughunter said:


> Currently I've got an HR20 in one room, three D11's and a TiVo Series 2 in my bedroom.


I think you mean HR10 (as the HR20 hasn't been released yet)


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

Brad Martin said:


> If you want a next generation TIVO HD DVR (AKA the TIVO 3) with Direct TV it's time to get off your duff and call Direct TV and express yourself to a CSR at Direct TV.
> 
> What that tells me is Direct TV will lose large customer base. We put a sell order on 600 shares this (afternoon) two business days ago. If we do not see a change in direction with Direct TV in the very near future we will sell the rest.
> 
> VOTE WITH YOUR CHECKBOOK, If they are not selling it they will fix it fast. They have to pay thier bills too just like we do,


Your avatar gives the impression that you're not a DBS fan. No offense, but doesn't that look as though your only intent is to slam satellite?


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## junebughunter (May 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I think you mean HR10 (as the HR20 hasn't been released yet)


I have the HR20 non-dvr that they install with the new 5LNB dishes at least that's what I've been told and it appears identical in pictures


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

junebughunter said:


> I have the HR20 non-dvr that they install with the new 5LNB dishes at least that's what I've been told and it appears identical in pictures


That would be the H20 HD receiver.


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## junebughunter (May 22, 2006)

JLucPicard said:


> That would be the H20 HD receiver.


Doh! I got mixed up H20 is right...


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## Proc (Jan 19, 2006)

I know there are alot of Tivo loyalists out there and for good reason. It works great and its easy. Actually, its almost too easy to use.

The bottom line though is to get the program recorded. Personally (and I have a D* Tivo), I don't really care what the interface looks like as long as its fairly simple to use and it records the programs I want it to record.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

I was a Tivo loyalist for a long time, but quite honestly Tivo is not the be all end all of DVR's. There are products out there that do the job jast as good... some even better. The extra features that Tivo offers are nice, but they are features that 99% of the potential customer base is not interested in. It's all about recording TV so you can watch it later when you want to and all of the available alternatives out there do a good enough job at that.

I know many consider the r15 a step down from the DirecTivo, but many that have had both don't beleive they are missing much moving away from Tivo and I have even heard many that like the r15 better because it has features that Tivo doesn't. The REAL market isn't for current DirecTivo's, it is for those that don't have a DVR yet. They will be ECSTATIC going from no DVR to DirecTV's. Just look at all the people that are happy with Comcast's current offerings of DVR's, and those things are complete CRAP compared to a DirecTivo, R15, E* DVR. Do you see a mass exodus of cable customers because of that?? Most of their customers aren't running out and buying Tivos, and I'm betting they won't be willing to spend the extra monthly fee to use the Tivo software on their box, nor the cash investment to buy a Series 3.

Tivo only has 2million or so subscribers. That is a drop in the bucket in the amount of potential DVR customers that are out there... and Tivo's software is not THAT much better than the alernatives to cause a dramatic impact on customers choosing their service provider based on who has a Tivo-based solution and who doesn't.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

grooves12 said:


> I was a Tivo loyalist for a long time, but quite honestly Tivo is not the be all end all of DVR's. There are products out there that do the job jast as good... some even better. The extra features that Tivo offers are nice, but they are features that 99% of the potential customer base is not interested in. It's all about recording TV so you can watch it later when you want to and all of the available alternatives out there do a good enough job at that.
> 
> I know many consider the r15 a step down from the DirecTivo, but many that have had both don't beleive they are missing much moving away from Tivo and I have even heard many that like the r15 better because it has features that Tivo doesn't. The REAL market isn't for current DirecTivo's, it is for those that don't have a DVR yet. They will be ECSTATIC going from no DVR to DirecTV's. Just look at all the people that are happy with Comcast's current offerings of DVR's, and those things are complete CRAP compared to a DirecTivo, R15, E* DVR. Do you see a mass exodus of cable customers because of that?? Most of their customers aren't running out and buying Tivos, and I'm betting they won't be willing to spend the extra monthly fee to use the Tivo software on their box, nor the cash investment to buy a Series 3.
> 
> Tivo only has 2million or so subscribers. That is a drop in the bucket in the amount of potential DVR customers that are out there... and Tivo's software is not THAT much better than the alernatives to cause a dramatic impact on customers choosing their service provider based on who has a Tivo-based solution and who doesn't.


You make valid points. Although I'm not sure about that 2 mil figure.

Point is, if you enjoy driving a Hugo to work that's fine. If I enjoy driving a GMC Yukon to work, fine. But why should a provider (cable or SAT) tell all of their customers they must drive a Hugo? I'm willing to pay more for the Tivo technology. I'd love to see a S3 DTivo and I'm willing to pay for that. But I refuse to pay for a Hugo just because I'm a DTV subscriber and I wish to remain a DTV subscriber because of NFLST. I'd like to see both offerings. DTV could offer the el-cheap-o R15 DVR for free, or offer a Tivo model for $100. See what the market supports.

For those that just replaced their VCR, they are happy. For those that use the full potential of a Tivo, they are not happy. For those that expect their DVR to record what it's suppose to, they are not happy.


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## SWTESTER (Apr 7, 2004)

grooves12 said:


> Just look at all the people that are happy with Comcast's current offerings of DVR's, and those things are complete CRAP compared to a DirecTivo, R15, E* DVR. Do you see a mass exodus of cable customers because of that?? Most of their customers aren't running out and buying Tivos, and I'm betting they won't be willing to spend the extra monthly fee to use the Tivo software on their box, nor the cash investment to buy a Series 3.


Actually my Moto 6412 works just fine. The program guide is fast compared to the HR10-250. Comcast also has real HD, not HD-Lite that D* has. ALL Digital, not the Pixelfest that is D*. Comcast HD TIVO by 4th quarter  , hopefully with a bigger HD. No messing with antennas and dishes on my roof. I'm not going to pay $500 to lease a box, install fee and then pay all kinds of DVR fees including an HD Fee  when with Comcast HD is free. That's a lot to pay for Universal HD and ESPN2.... (we're getting ESPN2 soon). Don't have to worry about switchboxes and 2 or 3 cables through walls either. I just plug it in.  We're also getting FIOS (TV part ???) by year end.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Then your Comcast in WA... is much better then the Comcast that is in Chicago...

Has your local comcast made a statement that they are releasing the unit in Q4?
As of yet, I haven't seen anything on the announcment level from Comcast or TiVo regarding the unit.

HD-Lite is still much better then SD...
Would I like the whole nine yards... sure... but we get is pretty damm good.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Then your Comcast in WA... is much better then the Comcast that is in Chicago...


It may well be. I just left Comcast in Seattle - the same Comcast that serves Bothell and other greater Seattle areas - and if I were an HD customer I would not have made the switch from C* to D*.

My primary problem with Comcast was analog bleed of OTA signals into my cable due to proximity to the 3 major network towers. Since I made the change, Comcast has gone to simulcasting all digital, and mixed digital/analog, so an all digital solution is now available from them (requiring addition STB's of course).

Before making the switch, I did rewire my house with new, high quality, quad shield RG6 and used compression fittings, etc. Did everything the best way possible, and still had the bleed. But I was not the only person with the problem, which is why C* went to the all digital simulcast.

Carl


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> You make valid points. Although I'm not sure about that 2 mil figure.
> 
> Point is, if you enjoy driving a Hugo to work that's fine. If I enjoy driving a GMC Yukon to work, fine. But why should a provider (cable or SAT) tell all of their customers they must drive a Hugo? I'm willing to pay more for the Tivo technology. I'd love to see a S3 DTivo and I'm willing to pay for that. But I refuse to pay for a Hugo just because I'm a DTV subscriber and I wish to remain a DTV subscriber because of NFLST. I'd like to see both offerings. DTV could offer the el-cheap-o R15 DVR for free, or offer a Tivo model for $100. See what the market supports.
> 
> For those that just replaced their VCR, they are happy. For those that use the full potential of a Tivo, they are not happy. For those that expect their DVR to record what it's suppose to, they are not happy.


Thats one of my issues with some posts here, you call the R15 the el-cheapo but that is PURELY your personal opinion. Both are good equipment one has issues that are actively bing addressed. Tivo had many of these same issues when their boxes came and still to this day have these same issues. Many people just tend to ignore those facts though.

As for it being cheap I would venture to guess hardware wise it's worth more money then the 40 or 80 gb Tivo's. This is my opinion and just like you I am entitled to it but in this intance facts are facts. Tivo has no new hardware coming out with D* it's something everyone has to deal with there is NO sense in continually complaining about it nor is there any reason to take pot shots at the D* boxes constantly.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

SWTESTER said:


> Actually my Moto 6412 works just fine. The program guide is fast compared to the HR10-250. Comcast also has real HD, not HD-Lite that D* has. ALL Digital, not the Pixelfest that is D*. Comcast HD TIVO by 4th quarter  , hopefully with a bigger HD. No messing with antennas and dishes on my roof. I'm not going to pay $500 to lease a box, install fee and then pay all kinds of DVR fees including an HD Fee  when with Comcast HD is free. That's a lot to pay for Universal HD and ESPN2.... (we're getting ESPN2 soon). Don't have to worry about switchboxes and 2 or 3 cables through walls either. I just plug it in.  We're also getting FIOS (TV part ???) by year end.


You basically proved my point... Comcast's recording system is incredibly simplistic compared to a Tivo... but you choose cable because of the service they provide, not because you think their box is superior.

Video on demand, HD offerings, simple installs, less upfront costs... those are reasons why cable is now winning the battle when it comes to adding/keeping subscribers... NOT their boxes. So, people that think that having Tivo would somehow SAVE DirecTV or conversely not having it will kill them are delusional. People have been saying for yeas that not having the advanced features of the standalones would cause a mass defection of DirecTivo users, yet DirecTV still makes up for 75% or so of Tivo's subscribers and we haven't seen any mass defections yet.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Point is, if you enjoy driving a Hugo to work that's fine. If I enjoy driving a GMC Yukon to work, fine. But why should a provider (cable or SAT) tell all of their customers they must drive a Hugo? I'm willing to pay more for the Tivo technology. I'd love to see a S3 DTivo and I'm willing to pay for that. But I refuse to pay for a Hugo just because I'm a DTV subscriber and I wish to remain a DTV subscriber because of NFLST. I'd like to see both offerings. DTV could offer the el-cheap-o R15 DVR for free, or offer a Tivo model for $100. See what the market supports.


The problem is that you don't seem to understnat that it is not the Hardware costs that make the difference... it is the monthly sub fees. Would you be willing to pay $15/mo to Tivo vs. $5/mo for DirecTV's offering?? Because Directv's whole model is that by having control of the box and being able to implement more advanced features they will get subscribers to buy into higher services once they start being offered.

My guess is most DirecTV customers would not be willing to pay THAT much more of a subscription cost... and thus it does not become a feasible business venture to spend R&D money for a small subscriber base.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

grooves12 said:


> The problem is that you don't seem to understnat that it is not the Hardware costs that make the difference... it is the monthly sub fees. Would you be willing to pay $15/mo to Tivo vs. $5/mo for DirecTV's offering?? Because Directv's whole model is that by having control of the box and being able to implement more advanced features they will get subscribers to buy into higher services once they start being offered.
> 
> My guess is most DirecTV customers would not be willing to pay THAT much more of a subscription cost... and thus it does not become a feasible business venture to spend R&D money for a small subscriber base.


Where do you come up with that figure? I don't pay a DTivo fee as I subscribe to TCP yet I have 6 DTivo units. DTV charges a DVR fee. R15 or DTivo are the same I believe, but then again, I don't pay that.

What I'm saying is I'd pay $200-$500 up front (depending on what Tivo model). I'm not willing to pay $499 for a lease Hugo DVR+ HR20 unit.

I can see a business model working even with DTV selling the R15 for $99 - $99 rebate (free) and selling the R10 for $99 with no rebate. Let the customer make the choice.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

The problem is that even at $99 with no rebate DirecTV would be losing money on the box. Do you REALLY think that that box can be produced for anywhere NEAR $99??? The hard disk alone costs more than that.

The current business model exists because they are planning on subsidizing the cost of the box through subscription fees. The DVR fee originally probably just barely covers the cost of support, upgrades, advertising, etc... that the boxes generate. But, originally they were great for reducing churn when DVR's weren't as common place among other subscribers that they are now. NOW, the climate has changed drastically and the only way the costs will be less than the benefit is if they can get subscribers to buy into MORE features. NFL Superfan is an example, and I am sure there will be more to come... without having control in-house those things can't get implemented.

Where do I get that number?? SIMPLE... from the cable+Tivo pricing model. That is what some people "in the know" have said it will cost to have the Tivo software per month on the motorola boxes. Plus, it is fairly close to what you would have to pay were you to buy a standalone Tivo.

I think DirecTV's customers are spoiled by the fact that they got a sweetheart deal from Tivo originally, and were able to offer a great product SUPER cheap. They are spoiled by free hardware... and used to the $5 DVR fee... and want it all. The latest and greatest expensive hardware, for free.... no increased monthly fees... and THEIR choice of hardware. Unfortunately that is not feasible. Do you REALLY think Tivo would waste their time on R&D for a DirecTivo Series 3 with the current deal where they only get $1 per ACCOUNT?? No, they would need a new deal and that would mean higher DVR fees. NDS can get away with not making profit because the money all goes to the same pot.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I guess I don't understand. Giving away a POS DVR for free doesn't loose DTV $$ versus selling a DVR without a rebate? I'd like a choice. I like DTVs product (not their DVR) and NFLST keeps me here. If DTV didn't have the exclusive on NFLST they wouldn't last through the end of the year with the latest changes they have put into effect.


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## spykedvodka (Jan 31, 2006)

Well what's wrong with Dish's DVR. I was thinking of switching to D* because of the NFL Package, but if I can't have a dual turner DVR for HD, that's a no go. However, after reading this conversation it amazes me how some people in here don't like the E* DVR (VIP 622). What does Tivo do that the VIP 622 can't (besides HD content that the VIP 622 can record). Also I am not talking about the patent lawsuit either. I am genuinely cuiroius about features.


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> I guess I don't understand. Giving away a POS DVR for free doesn't loose DTV $$ versus selling a DVR without a rebate? I'd like a choice. I like DTVs product (not their DVR) and NFLST keeps me here. If DTV didn't have the exclusive on NFLST they wouldn't last through the end of the year with the latest changes they have put into effect.


DirecTV switched have switched to the NDS XTV platform and stayed at the NDS XTV platform for security and the fact that they can control the content on the DVR and how the DVR functions.

DirecTV will not go back to Tivo, and looking at it from DirecTV's view and seeing how many options NDS gives, how much cheaper it is for them, and how *they* can control everything I would have switched to XTV LOOOOOONG ago. Tivo can't give those options and that security.


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## Red Dwarf (Aug 25, 2002)

spykedvodka said:


> Well what's wrong with Dish's DVR. I was thinking of switching to D* because of the NFL Package, but if I can't have a dual turner DVR for HD, that's a no go. However, after reading this conversation it amazes me how some people in here don't like the E* DVR (VIP 622). What does Tivo do that the VIP 622 can't (besides HD content that the VIP 622 can record). Also I am not talking about the patent lawsuit either. I am genuinely curious about features.


The Tivo will record shows in the unused part of the hard drive that it thinks you'll like. It's based on your rating of programs with the red thumbs down or the green thumbs up buttons on the remote. I liked that when I was with Directv.

But the news of Directv not using Tivo for the next generation HD box and no support for the 30 second skip button, I jumped ship and got Dish's 622. I have had very little trouble with this box and I love the fact of having twice the HD content with Dish. Unless you're a football nut, Dish is a much deal.

Speaking of Football, remember with Dish, you'll get HD ABC, CBS, ESPN college football, NFL on CBS, NBC, ESPN and NFL network. That is a ton of games without an additional annual of $300 plus.

Besides Dish has a better picture!


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## spykedvodka (Jan 31, 2006)

Yeah but when you live in a market with no HD Locals (unless you cheated like I did), you will miss your games in HD. Doesn't Directv have all the games in HD or only select few?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

spykedvodka said:


> Yeah but when you live in a market with no HD Locals (unless you cheated like I did), you will miss your games in HD. Doesn't Directv have all the games in HD or only select few?


NFLST plus the SuperFan Package (that's a rip) does have every NFL HD game available other than those carried in your local area. I buy that every year and will continue to do so. It's the only thing that really keeps me a DTV customer.


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## Scarpad (May 22, 2006)

harsh said:


> Which leaves you with Comcast, no? What are you going to do when you find out that it sucks?
> 
> According to an article in the March 20th Newsweek, TiVo now has only a 25% share of the DVR market and that number is declining. Of that 25% number, 66% of those are DirecTiVo units (this is probably overstated due to inroads of the NDS units and the inability to handle MPEG4, but that's what the article said). Other than agreeing not to sue DirecTV, TiVo isn't doing them any favors. In fact, by developing a unit that won't work with DirecTV HD, TiVo is slapping DirecTV, the company who arguably sustained them during their rise to popularity, in the face.


And it does Suck, at least the ones comcast is shipping now. It's usable and has 2 tuners and HD but that's about all I can Say good about it. It's sluggish and you have to baby sit it everyday to insure it's not recording repeats and forcing out you other scheduled recordings, and it will do that. Plus I've had lock ups, and a Phantom Program that crops up and will usually destroy one of your recordings. Hopefully they will allow Tivo on their boxes soon, but I'm gonna go back to D* mainly because of Comcasts constant price hikes. I'm holding off on HD for now thou untill D* will provide me with a HD DVR that you truely lease and not pay for. I'd like to understand a box that is leased that you have to send back, yet still pay $500 for, it's totally Non sensical. When they will prvide me with the box I'll be more than happy to Upgrade to HD.


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## Scarpad (May 22, 2006)

Red Dwarf said:


> The Tivo will record shows in the unused part of the hard drive that it thinks you'll like. It's based on your rating of programs with the red thumbs down or the green thumbs up buttons on the remote. I liked that when I was with Directv.
> 
> But the news of Directv not using Tivo for the next generation HD box and no support for the 30 second skip button, I jumped ship and got Dish's 622. I have had very little trouble with this box and I love the fact of having twice the HD content with Dish. Unless you're a football nut, Dish is a much deal.
> 
> ...


The Loss of Suggestions doe'snt both me I never and will never use it. Often it ended up scheduling programs I would never watch so why fill up the DVR with crap.


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## rmmcneil (Mar 9, 2006)

Like others, I got tired of waiting for DTV to release their new equipment and add to their HD programming. So I jumped over to Dish with a 622 HD-DVR. I've been really pleased so far. I especially like the picture-in-picture feature of the 622. I also like having the ability to record 3 shows at once with an OTA antenna connected. Don't regret my switch to Dish at all... besides, it's only an 18 month agreement and I figure it will take DTV at least that long to catch up at the rate they're going!


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## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

rmmcneil said:


> Like others, I got tired of waiting for DTV to release their new equipment and add to their HD programming. So I jumped over to Dish with a 622 HD-DVR. I've been really pleased so far. I especially like the picture-in-picture feature of the 622. I also like having the ability to record 3 shows at once with an OTA antenna connected. Don't regret my switch to Dish at all... besides, it's only an 18 month agreement and I figure it will take DTV at least that long to catch up at the rate they're going!


I also jumped to dish and found the service unacceptable. We dumped Dish.

What you all fail to see here is there is big power in your own wallet.

If we are not buying it they are not going to make any profits.

Think about it.

Until they market a product we want to buy. In example the next generation "TIVO" HD DVR with locals.

DO NOT BUY IT TILL THEY FIX IT

Plain and simple.


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## carlsbad_bolt_fan (May 18, 2004)

Brad Martin said:


> I also jumped to dish and found the service unacceptable. We dumped Dish.
> 
> What you all fail to see here is there is big power in your own wallet.
> 
> ...


So the choice is to do without until D* complies? They'll "fix it" on their own schedule, not yours or mine.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Brad Martin said:


> I also jumped to dish and found the service unacceptable. We dumped Dish.
> 
> What you all fail to see here is there is big power in your own wallet.
> 
> ...


I've seen the same argument for $3.50/gallon for gas...
Don't buy it, and the price will go down.

You have a LOT of people to convince.

What you fail to see, is there are some battles to fight... and some not to.

You have other options out there.... cable-co, C-Band, ect....
I hope you find one that you are satisfied with.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Brad,

I feel your pain, but if you can't even convince a few people on this board, D* sure ain't listening. I just don't think any number of people are going to change the direction they're heading - like trying to swim against a barge.


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## BillyBob_jcv (Feb 12, 2006)

If you have good alternatives, you are lucky. Not all of us do. I have ZERO option for OTA without putting up an antenna the size of the Eiffel Tower. I can choose Adelphia, D* or E*. Someday (when the lawyers have sucked out all the money they are going to get) Adelphia in my area will become Time-Warner. Until then, I am blessed with the worst cable service in the country. I'm staying with the devil I know (D*) until one of them can provide me a service that is clearly superior. I'm not holding my breath...


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## Brad Martin (Feb 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I've seen the same argument for $3.50/gallon for gas...
> Don't buy it, and the price will go down.
> 
> You have a LOT of people to convince.
> ...


I guess we convinced someone at D, all of a sudden our household was made "VIP"


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