# Will the DVR fees vanish as fast as they came???



## shilton (Nov 20, 2002)

Just read an atricle today from Rupert Murdoch stating that within a year, he envisions DirecTV supplying FREE PVR's with NO SUBSCRIPTION FEES as a way to compete with cable's newest offerings. With this in the works, my question is this. How long can Dish's new DVR fees survive? If Rupert can do it for free, naturally we will all expect Charlie to do the same. I hope the beancounters at E look at this one and make an about-face real soon on the DVR Fees.


----------



## rtt2 (Jan 27, 2003)

I actually tried calling in to the Charlie Chat tonight to ask this very question.


----------



## Peluso (Sep 11, 2002)

As soon as Rupert does this, then I can absolutely gaurentee that Charlie will drop the PVR fees. He simply won't be competative if he doesn't.


----------



## Peluso (Sep 11, 2002)

shilton said:


> Just read an atricle today from Rupert Murdoch stating that within a year, he envisions DirecTV supplying FREE PVR's with NO SUBSCRIPTION FEES as a way to compete with cable's newest offerings.


Where was the article? I'd like to read it myself.


----------



## rtt2 (Jan 27, 2003)

I posted it in the general forums area before


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The article was about Rupert dropping PVR fees from the Sky service in the UK. I don't have the link off the top of my head, though. I'll look for it.

The thread that rtt2 posted in is here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=18418


----------



## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I thought it was about the future of Tivo service in this country! That sure changes things if he is talking about his British satellite service. But then again he might look to do the same here if it makes a difference in Britain .


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The article that I saw today talked about him dropping the fees in the UK. Speculation then started about whether he would drop the fees here as well if and when he takes over Directv.


----------



## Peluso (Sep 11, 2002)

i think Rupert is a shrewd man. You have to be to get to that level, you have to be the first to spot what people want and to give it to them. My guess is that he's realized that the perfect marketing model for PVR's is to give away the box with a service commitment to a service provider. Can we say cell phone model? 

I'm absolutely positive that DVR fees are going to go away, but they will be replaced by alternative income streams like sales of viewer data and advertisements on the guide. 

The most interesting part of the article to me was the comments from TiVo saying how they gave Rupert a presentation on the benefits and the things in the pipeline. I'm wondering what interesting things they have in the pipeline.


----------



## shilton (Nov 20, 2002)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I thought it was about the future of Tivo service in this country! That sure changes things if he is talking about his British satellite service. But then again he might look to do the same here if it makes a difference in Britain .


Wish I could remember specifically where I read the article I am talking about, but there was NO SPECULATION. Rupert came right out and said that he envisions DirecTV to be giving away Free DVR's (oops...he called it a PVR. Shame on Rupert) and charging ZERO FEES. He even mentioned that not only is this a requirement for DirecTV to compete with cable and its newest offerings like Tivo in certain areas, etc. But he sited that Dish has already had early successes in the DVR arena and that to compete, they must develop a product just as good or better. Even if he does not get his hands on DirecTV, one can bet he will still have enough influence as a major provider of programming to push them in that direction. Could get interesting, as this would make DirecTV cheaper than Dish in virtually all areas except for the lowest cost entry level package soon. Watch out Charlie!!! Looks like today's customers expect to get more for LESS!!! and FREE is the ticket! Just say NO to DVR Fees!!!


----------



## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Just think if Charlie had offered a free dvr and no fees? He might have slaughtered the competition. He could have still offered a commitment of say two years at whatever package to keep new customers, but all and all this would have been a killer promotion against Directv and cable. 

Now if he could just find a way to get rid of the additional receiver fees, he might just put all the competition out of business. This new receiver dvr class like the 522 and the rumored 544 might just be the way to do this . Two to four tuners in one box and no additional receiver fees, this is the way to go to kill the competition. Of course all those coax runs in the house are going to be a nightmare for installers. :eek2:


----------



## Randy_B (Apr 23, 2002)

Charlie and E* had a great opportunity to be the industry leader, had he kept to the original strategy he put inplace with the 501/508 and 721 he would have looked like a visionary and the man setting the pace. Now, he has let the boobs in marketing lead him by the nose and when Rupe drops the DVR fee Charlie and E* will look like the industry laggard, a mere follower, trailing in the shadow of Sir Rupe's vision.

YOU BLEW IT CHARLIE!

Anyone wanna bet that Charlie probably kicked over the desk in his office for letting his staff making him second fiddle to Sir Rupe!

You don't always get what you deserve, but you always get what you earn!

It must hurt to have Sir Rupe tweak your nose, eh Charlie?

BIG HINT CHARLIE, drop the fees *NOW* and in 3 months no one will remember this article. You have a brief window to reclaim the mantle. Act accordingly.


----------



## Guest (Sep 9, 2003)

In the article, Murdock says about E*'s DVR promotions

"I think we can match them, but to make a substantial jump ahead of them will take time."


More interesting is the info that News corp. has all the pieces to replace TIVO with its own Skyplus DVR's. I can't see Murdock willingly sending all DVR profits to TIVO.

The competition between D* ad E* should benefit subscribers of both services.


----------



## Peluso (Sep 11, 2002)

I don't suspect that Charlie is too worried about Rupe's comments. charlie is smart enough to know that a standard business practice is to say one thing but when it comes to product delivery, to deliver something entirely different. Everything could stay exactly the same at DirecTV with the addition of an extremely low end Propritary software DVR being the entry level receiver.


----------



## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Seems possible to me that Direct will indeed eventually use their own PVR (DVR) and then TIVO will lose enough business to go out of business. Then Rupert could buy the rights to name based recording. Haven't news reports suggested TIVO is not yet really making money?


----------



## EvanS (Mar 27, 2002)

Randy_B said:


> ...Now, he has let the boobs in marketing lead him by the nose and...


somehow I have a hard time seeing Charlie being led ANYWHERE by the nose by ANYONE.


----------



## rtt2 (Jan 27, 2003)

The DVR fee is a big mistake to begin with and always will be. People don't like to be nickeled and dimmed and this DVR fee makes predicting monthly bills less transparent for potential customers. Rupert is going to be using DVR technology aggressively with BSkyB and DirecTV. Charlie should drop the fees as soon as possible and he will sell more DVRs.


----------



## Shel (Sep 9, 2003)

I am all for not paying for using DVR


----------



## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Its my belief charlie has hired beancounter managers and is following their advice 

I hope E realizes the fee was a big mnistake and I too think he should back off and it will be forgotten.

If it remans for long E will look like a greedy company.

Of course E MUST FIX THEIR DVR BOXES, a better more robust user friendly, and most important one that ships with the features needed would save lots of money on tech support.

Every time they upgrade something subs must call for info Hey this button doesnt do what it used to? WHATS UP? Let alone any new bugs created


Its money lost for E....

User replaceable hard drives that easily load in a preengineered port would help too.

Hey box comes with 50 hours record time but you can upgrade it yourself with this pre packaged unit for just $200 if you want more storage!

Hard drives would come with pre loaded software and fit in a expansion port. E could CHARGE for this this. I wouldnt mnd paying a bit extra for convenience! E would have total control over what hard drives would be used and make a profit to boot.

E USED to lead the industry, now its become a follower. Just what caused this to occur?


----------



## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I'm probably repeating what has already been said in the various threads, but this seems like such a miscalculation by Dish I will post anyway. The basic idea of charging for DVR functions is not so wrong. It would be better if Dish could find a way to not charge and trumpet that fact in advertising in my opinion however. The real problems are:

1. They do not have name based recording or season pass. If they had a deal with TIVO to have it and then had to charge, that would be different. That said, I do like my 508 alot, and not having name based recording seems like only a minor annoyance.

2. From reading the various forums, my experience, and friends who have TIVO, software from Dish is somewhat less reliable, but there really are or have been some problems with TIVO also. If Dish did not have the software problems that would also help to make us feel better about paying fees.

3. Per unit DVR fees have to go. I know not all will have two units now, but it sure seems like the prices are going to be much more affordable, and two units could become the norm. 

4. As it stands, the cost will be for many $10.00 more a month over the cost of the DVR and programming fees. $5 DVR fee, $5 2nd receiver fee. $120 more a year. For those with Top 50 that goes to a possible $180. If you get the 921 then add $10 for HD programming per month more. I think many will be priced out either immediately or after paying the first few bills.

5. The biggest mistake to me is charging those with TOP 150. If they just had a little imagination they could exclude that group. Maybe require at least one subscription to a premium service, or if you spend at least X dollars more you get DVR fees waived. 

6. Speaking of imagination, just knowing how we all are - wanting to at least be thinking we are getting a good deal, why not give a break if you do have two receivers or more - DVR fee on first receiver none on rest and keep 2nd receiver fee, or DVR fee on each but no 2nd receiver fee on a 2nd DVR - or - you get the idea. 

7. That those who are getting the TOP 150, getting at least one Premium service ,are buying the 2nd and third receivers, are buying the new DVR's, especially the 921 are indeed their best customers seems to have been ignored by Dish. They are the least likely to leave. Why make them start looking around for better deals and start comparing TIVO to DISH?

Dish did not lose me as a customer, but did lose a 921 sale and HD programming. I will keep my 508 and get HD over the air with my old DTC100 receiver. I am not paying DVR fees and more 2nd receiver fees to them when I am spending as much as I am already. If the 508 dies, I will look around again at my options. I will use my DVD recorder with it's hard drive as a DVR if needed. Not quite as convienent, not quite the functions, but it works. Adding fee after fee has it's limits for most, and I have reached mine.


----------



## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

The reason why I left Dish was because of the fee if I got a 510 receiver. I was a AT-150+supers+locals subscriber on the Digital Home Plan with a 501 receiver. Otherwise, I was satisfied with Dish. The DVR software for Dish is pretty good, but not worth the amount that they are asking, especially in comparison with DirecTivo.


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

tampa8 sums it up pretty succinctly. Back when Tivo had fees and Replay didn't, I really thought that revealed that the emperor's new clothes were a little threadbare, and that the "fee" was just basic gouging and that the competition who actually provided a better EPG and service than Tivo (IMO) proved that. I also thought that fees on Tivo would be forced out of existence. I couldn't have been more wrong. Eventually, Replay added fees as an act of desperation for their survival. Then Charlie got greedy, charging per unit fees for PVR's that are still buggy. Some nerve.

So all bets are off, as far as I'm concerned. If E* dropped their fees ever, I'd be very surprised, but I know Rupert would love any chance to rub it in Charlie's face, so maybe his statement was just rubbish, timed with the introduction of fees by E* just to tweak Charlie a little.


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I think that Charlie will keep the fees for as long as he can to see how long he can get away with it. This is a new source of revenue for him along with the other new services he is bringing up to the plate such as HD, locals for many more markets, broadband in the future, interactive features and games, etc. as he tries to diversify a bit to find more ways to receive additional money each month. 

I think his best chance is broadband if he has rates cheap enough and gets the hardware costs down along with locals to get those customers to sign up. He could have a bundled deal to keep the cost down and to keep the customers happy.

Perhaps Charlie will drop the fees for current customers when Rupert decides to give everyone a free DVR with free DVR service. He will lose lots of existing subscribers along with potential subscribers if he does not compete and give everyone a free DVR with free DVR service as well. He will lose one way or another. This will be Rupert's start to a long road of competition and maybe thats when Charlie will see that it is time to sell out when it starts costing him too much to run the business to stay competitive.


----------

