# Sticky  Dish OTA EPG issues Discussion



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

This thread is for discussing issues with the OTA EPG.

Please report your specific problems in the designated thread:
*http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=196371*

... then you can come back to this thread and discuss the issue further or relate your experiences in having Dish resolve the troubles.


----------



## jscudder (Jan 18, 2006)

It has been almost 4 months since my first request for EPG info for Portland ME's WPXT 5.2 was made to Dish by email. In the past I have requested EPG for 3 other Portland subchannels and those requests have been granted in a matter of weeks if not days.

These requests previously had been made by me via email to [email protected]. The persons at that address used to be great at responding, telling me to email back if I did not see the EPG info within 2 weeks. Now my emails get no response.

Has Dish changed it's policy on customer service for these requests? Can we get confirmation from a DIRT member that Dish is still willing to add EPG info for OTA subchannels.

John


----------



## Ray [email protected] Network (Dec 28, 2010)

jscudder, 

I will forward your request to clarify if the procedure has changed. The OTA EPG information is streamed with the video and audio and sent to the receiver. OTA EPG is not available without locals provided through us. Thanks.


----------



## jscudder (Jan 18, 2006)

Thanks, I would appreciate that. I do subscribe to Dish Locals and can receive 18 OTA channels and sub-channels. The above mentioned sub-channel is the only one that does not have EPG info.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

I'm still waiting for "Antenna TV" on WJW-DT 8.2 (Cleveland OH). I've been posting about this one since January.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Michael P said:


> I'm still waiting for "Antenna TV" on WJW-DT 8.2 (Cleveland OH). I've been posting about this one since January.


Our viewing area is just the opposite we get"Antenna TV" programming information,it's the MeTV in the Fresno-Visalia area that has no program information in my OTA section of my 722k's UI(yellow).

But in my HDTV which has Vizio's Internet Apps I can access TV Guide's programming widget and it shows all the programming information for all my OTA channels that are missing in my 722k's MT2 UI?.


----------



## jscudder (Jan 18, 2006)

Hooray!! EPG info for 51.2 ME-TV in Portland ME appeared tonight. It has been a long wait. 

Thank you Ray [email protected] It looks like the folks who take care of the OTA EPG are still listening.

John


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

jscudder said:


> Hooray!! EPG info for 51.2 ME-TV in Portland ME appeared tonight. It has been a long wait.
> 
> Thank you Ray [email protected] It looks like the folks who take care of the OTA EPG are still listening.
> 
> John


Good news! I hope Cleveland's Antenna TV is not far behind.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Still no Antenna TV EPG data here in Cleveland. I deleted and readded several OTA stations. About all that did was to correct a different subchannel's name in the guide. Me TV showed up as Weather on WOIO 19.2 because that is what WOIO had ontheir subchannel before Me TV came on the air. The guide data was there all along, just the name of the channel needed to be changed.

WEWS 5.2 has "Living Well" on 5.2, when I rescanned it in I could see the name change on the Add Channels screen.

I'll have to wait and see if any programs populate the guide tonight (I scanned last night and have not checked back since the nightly reboot).


----------



## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

Just wondering, when you put these requests in does anyone at Dish actually add them?

I don't see any follow ups that guide data is now there.

I am looking at switching form Direct to Dish and Two Hoppers as DirecTV has officially STOPPEd adding any new guide data for new digital sub channels.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

It has been a while since I have seen any activity by Dish to fix EPG errors, including ones they have semi-recently broken themselves... but since I have been asked in the past to get feedback on OTA EPG issues, I encourage people to post in the reporting thread so that Dish gets a wider view of just how many customers and how many DMAs have EPG issues.


----------



## Ray [email protected] Network (Dec 28, 2010)

I would also need PMs, from those having EPG issues, with their receiver numbers, a description of the problem, and the channels they are experiencing the problems on. I will submit a trouble report so we can look into this. Thanks.



Stewart Vernon said:


> It has been a while since I have seen any activity by Dish to fix EPG errors, including ones they have semi-recently broken themselves... but since I have been asked in the past to get feedback on OTA EPG issues, I encourage people to post in the reporting thread so that Dish gets a wider view of just how many customers and how many DMAs have EPG issues.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Ray [email protected] Network said:


> I would also need PMs, from those having EPG issues, with their receiver numbers, a description of the problem, and the channels they are experiencing the problems on. I will submit a trouble report so we can look into this. Thanks.


Ray,

In this case we are talking about specific channels that Dish does not have the proper EPG data in their uplink... so it wouldn't be a problem limited to a specific receiver or customer. It would be a particular channel/DMA issue that Dish would need to address for all customers in that market regardless of the receiver model.

IF it would help get attention from Dish, though, I could certainly help encourage users to send you a PM when they post in the trouble report thread.


----------



## FarmerBob (Nov 28, 2002)

I just discovered something strange with OTA (Denver) local channel info and how the guide physically responds.

I have three DISH channels for one local:
The DISH SD Channel 012-00 has all the info intact and you can navigate through it.
DISH's HD 012-00 is missing info in slots where the SD channel has it. AND once in a "No Info Available" slot you can only move up, down and back, but not forward from a No Info block to a No Info block.
The OTA channel matches the DISH HD channel verbatim in all respects.
But the sub-OTA 012-01, 012-02 & 012-3 channels all have info and navigation is fine.

This is very curious that the DISH SD channel is just fine, but the HD and OTA versions are identical in what's missing or present and you can not navigate forward once you encounter a No Info block. AND the other OTA's are complete.

Thought I'd just add this to the conversation on OTA issues.


----------



## jc8097654 (Mar 28, 2008)

So has Dish Network dismantled their department that handles EPG errors as it appears no progress is being made on these issues? I cannot get a straight answer from any of the Dish Reps on these boards, very frustrating for someone who just switched to Dish Network!


----------



## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

Do you think that these changes are taking place because Charlie stepped down? If these issues as well as others DISH will lose some if it's customers?


----------



## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

Over the Air Guide Data for Digital Sub Channels is very important to many since Dish does not call all locals.

In some areas they carry the Big 4 Networks and maybe PBS and the CW.

To get all the other like

Retro TV
METV
This TV
Live Well
PBS Kids
PBS World
Antenna TV
Local Weather and News
That Music channel (cant think of name)
and more

We need Dish reading this thread and FIXING any EPG issues. With out guide data for Over the Air its hard to watch these channels.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> Our viewing area is just the opposite we get"Antenna TV" programming information,it's the MeTV in the Fresno-Visalia area that has no program information in my OTA section of my 722k's UI(yellow).
> 
> But in my HDTV which has Vizio's Internet Apps I can access TV Guide's programming widget and it shows all the programming information for all my OTA channels that are missing in my 722k's MT2 UI?.


Well now I use a 922/wMT2 but the same problem is there no MeTV OTA programming information and now it's worse because Vizio lost the TV Guide widget in their Internet Apps. I could use before.It's interesting because we recieve the programming information for THiS network and AntennaTV in my MT2 guide.:whatdidid:hair:


----------



## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

I am almost happy with the EPG.

I recently started getting info for KSTP and KSTC, both owned by Hubbard Broadcasting. At least all except for 45-05. This channel is a temporary place holder to direct the user to 05-45, but it also caries the programming that used to be on 05-02.

Included are 05-03, MeTV and 05-04, THiS.

Now if they could get the switched information on 09-02, KMSP fixed. It still shows program info for 29-00, WFTC, where it should show the same as 09-00, KMSP.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

E* needs to have an OTA guide "Team" to sort this mess out. They also need to educate ALL their staff so the bogus comment "If we don't carry the channel on the satellite you will not get guide data" will no longer be uttered.

I can testify that:
A: You may get OOM OTA guide data
B: You may get subchannel guide data for networks not carried
C: What you get or don't get varies by DMA

A dedicated team could get this fixed. We are paying for DVR service so this issue should not get swept under the rug!

NOTE: I have been reporting the OTA guide issues for my DVR in the Cleveland DMA since the beginning and nothing has ever changed, in fact due to a subchannel swap done by the local station I no longer get THIS guide data (WUAB 43.3, formerly 43.2 which is now Bounce w/data). THIS was the very first OTA subchannel that I did get guide data from and now it's gone.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Agree. I'm very disappointed in the lack of movement from Dish and lack of acknowledgement that there even is a problem.

Heck, I've posted before that Dish actually broke one of the OTA sub-channels last year and I think they still uplink the EPG data but just broke the link to it and linked 2 channels to the same data for some reason.


----------



## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Agree. I'm very disappointed in the lack of movement from Dish and lack of acknowledgement that there even is a problem.
> 
> Heck, I've posted before that Dish actually broke one of the OTA sub-channels last year and I think they still uplink the EPG data but just broke the link to it and linked 2 channels to the same data for some reason.


That is essentially what I have with KMSP-SD, 009-02. Both it and WFTC, 029-01 are linked to the same WFTC guide data. Whereas 009-02 should be the same as KMSP, 009-00.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Michael P said:


> E* needs to have an OTA guide "Team" to sort this mess out. They also need to educate ALL their staff so the bogus comment "If we don't carry the channel on the satellite you will not get guide data" will no longer be uttered.
> 
> I can testify that:
> A: You may get OOM OTA guide data
> ...


Some over at the other site have reported having success by emailing [email protected] .Think I'm going to give it a try see what happens.


----------



## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

No "www." on that e-mail.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

BobaBird said:


> No "www." on that e-mail.


Thanks Bobabird,wondered why I had a delivery failure.Will change and resend.Thanks again.


----------



## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

Visiting relatives in a small population size DMA. 

Only One out of the Seven over the air channels have guide data which makes it hard to imposing to record or know when to watch anything. None of the channels are up on the Sat

They have called dish three times once each year to open a ticket for the missing guide data. They even paid extra for the over the air module tuner

Sure sounds like Dish does not care about over the air guide data, but they sure will take your money and sell you a tuner. It would be so easy to add the guide data. Tribue already has the data. Dish just needs to type in the link to there table for locals. Some cities almost have all there guide data others have almost none.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

scottchez said:


> Visiting relatives in a small population size DMA.
> 
> Only One out of the Seven over the air channels have guide data which makes it hard to imposing to record or know when to watch anything. None of the channels are up on the Sat
> 
> ...


Since every DMA is carried at least in SD, the guide data should be available. Unless the OTA signals are translators and not the main station's signals.

This needs to be fixed, as you say customers purchase OTA modules. At least they can watch the stations, but guide data is essential.
BTW: What DMA and do you know which stations are not getting guide data?


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Jhon69 said:


> Some over at the other site have reported having success by emailing [email protected] .Think I'm going to give it a try see what happens.


Please let us know how that works out. You may want to let them know about the threads here so they can see your issues are not an isolated incident (as has been the approach by many tech support personnel I have spoken with in the past).


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Michael P said:


> Please let us know how that works out. You may want to let them know about the threads here so they can see your issues are not an isolated incident (as has been the approach by many tech support personnel I have spoken with in the past).


Received a reply pretty quick(next business day) here's what it said:

Thank you for expressing your concerns and interest in DISH Network. Customer input is an important tool in our efforts to continuously improve the quality of the DISH Network service.

I will forward this information off to the appropriate department to see what can be done. As soon as I get any information on this issue, I will be sure and update you. If you have not heard anything from me in about 10 business days please email me again so that I may revisit this again.

We appreciate the time DISH Network customers take to email their audio/video quality concerns. Thank you for your patience and for being a valued customer.

EchoStar Broadcasting Corporation
Quality Assurance Department
[email protected]


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Michael P said:


> Please let us know how that works out. You may want to let them know about the threads here so they can see your issues are not an isolated incident (as has been the approach by many tech support personnel I have spoken with in the past).


Still no fix I emailed them again two weeks ago and no reply.Thank maybe they are tired of hearing from me?.The ironic thing is that the programming information is being supplied in different parts of the USA,just not my area.

Guess I will start using Titan TV listings online as it seems they don't have a problem with channel programming information.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Woke up this morning to see the programming information for MeTV in my OTA DISH guide.

Thank You DISH!.:goodjob:


----------



## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> Woke up this morning to see the programming information for MeTV in my OTA DISH guide.
> Thank You DISH!.:goodjob:


It's great to have the EPG info isn't it. I started getting my MeTV info almost two months ago, along with THIS. :hurah:


----------



## PeggyD (Apr 6, 2006)

Still no programming information for Antenna TV, 23.3, here in the Seattle area.


----------



## Ray [email protected] Network (Dec 28, 2010)

Please provide your receiver number to me in a PM and I will submit a trouble report. Please include the call letters for the channel. Thanks.



PeggyD said:


> Still no programming information for Antenna TV, 23.3, here in the Seattle area.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

bnborg said:


> It's great to have the EPG info isn't it. I started getting my MeTV info almost two months ago, along with THIS. :hurah:


Yes it is!.

But I guess I'm easy as I don't have programming information for one of my THiS channels,but I get 2 of them(I get channels north and south of my residence,so I end up having repeat channels sometimes) so I can see what's on, on the other one,so no complaints.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

PeggyD said:


> Still no programming information for Antenna TV, 23.3, here in the Seattle area.


Until they get it fixed the programming information should be available at Titan TV.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Finally somebody is getting this longtime issue resolved!

Ray, can I send you my list of missing (and incorrect) guide data channels for the Cleveland DMA?


----------



## PeggyD (Apr 6, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> Until they get it fixed the programming information should be available at Titan TV.


I know that I can check TitanTV or TVGuide.com, I've been doing that for over a year! But that's not the point of this thread & your reply comes across as insulting. :icon_dumm


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> Received a reply pretty quick(next business day) here's what it said:
> 
> Thank you for expressing your concerns and interest in DISH Network. Customer input is an important tool in our efforts to continuously improve the quality of the DISH Network service.
> 
> ...





PeggyD said:


> I know that I can check TitanTV or TVGuide.com, I've been doing that for over a year! But that's not the point of this thread & your reply comes across as insulting. :icon_dumm


OK I apologize it was not meant to be.Suggest you do what I did email [email protected],also email the station manager.It worked for me,Good Luck!


----------



## PeggyD (Apr 6, 2006)

Apology accepted, thank you.

The only time I've e-mail the quality team I got a reply that OTA wasn't their concern. Kind of makes you not want to try. Much the same type of response I got in the forums (before DIRT). We'll see what happens, but I certainly won't hold my breath.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

PeggyD said:


> Apology accepted, thank you.
> 
> The only time I've e-mail the quality team I got a reply that OTA wasn't their concern. Kind of makes you not want to try. Much the same type of response I got in the forums (before DIRT). We'll see what happens, but I certainly won't hold my breath.


Wooh! if I got an email like that I would forward that email to the executive office of DISH [email protected] just to see what kind of heat they would bring down to the originator of that email,you just don't talk to a customer that way!,remember you always have recourse,you just have to know how to use it.

Remember email the station manager too!.Good Luck!


----------



## dreamsatellite (May 13, 2012)

i have the same EPG problem, is there a way to change the Chinese into English?
we are using this satellite: dishhdtvchina.com


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

dreamsatellite said:


> i have the same EPG problem, is there a way to change the Chinese into English?
> we are using this satellite: dishhdtvchina.com


When I select that program guide from the website you said the program guide come up in English on my computer.

I don't see anywhere in my receiver's Menu to change the EPG's language,there is a selection for alternate audio.You may have to use your computer to translate in English.Good Luck!

I did some studying of the receiver's system information in the Main Menu you can select Language(it's in the pictures at the bottom),then hopefully you will be able to select English there for the EPG language.again Good Luck!


----------



## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

WYFX Fox Youngstown, OH Channel 19.1 listed as Digital service on EPG


----------



## Ray [email protected] Network (Dec 28, 2010)

Please PM your receiver number to me so I can submit a trouble report about this issue. Thanks.



fmcomputer said:


> WYFX Fox Youngstown, OH Channel 19.1 listed as Digital service on EPG


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> Woke up this morning to see the programming information for MeTV in my OTA DISH guide.
> 
> Thank You DISH!.:goodjob:


Well that didn't last long now my MeTV information is showing just a summary of the program,nothing about the episode being shown.I have a feeling this has something to do with the networks lawsuits,even though my other OTA programming is showing episode information.

MeTV-43.6-Fresno-Visalia,CA.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> Well that didn't last long now my MeTV information is showing just a summary of the program,nothing about the episode being shown.I have a feeling this has something to do with the networks lawsuits,even though my other OTA programming is showing episode information.
> 
> MeTV-43.6-Fresno-Visalia,CA.


Nothing to do with lawsuits.

This happens quite a bit on satellite channels too. All-too-often I see nights with generic "a show about a guy who ..." descriptions that then get replaced a day or two later when the EPG refreshes.

For whatever reason, Dish sometimes doesn't get/put the right info.


----------



## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> Well that didn't last long now my MeTV information is showing just a summary of the program,nothing about the episode being shown.I have a feeling this has something to do with the networks lawsuits,even though my other OTA programming is showing episode information.
> 
> MeTV-43.6-Fresno-Visalia,CA.


I lost the program details on MeTV 5.3 MSP two or three days ago. It's very annoying. 

I think the problem must be between MeTV and Tribune Media/TV Guide.


----------



## Ray [email protected] Network (Dec 28, 2010)

Please PM me your receiver number so I can submit a trouble report to our programming department to check on this issue. Thanks.



bnborg said:


> I lost the program details on MeTV 5.3 MSP two or three days ago. It's very annoying.
> 
> I think the problem must be between MeTV and Tribune Media/TV Guide.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> Well that didn't last long now my MeTV information is showing just a summary of the program,nothing about the episode being shown.I have a feeling this has something to do with the networks lawsuits,even though my other OTA programming is showing episode information.
> 
> MeTV-43.6-Fresno-Visalia,CA.


OK my episode information for MeTV has been corrected.I am seeing the program's description per episode for MeTV in my DISH MT2 OTA guide again in my 922.Thanks DISH!.:goodjob:


----------



## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> OK my episode information for MeTV has been corrected.I am seeing the program's description per episode for MeTV in my DISH MT2 OTA guide again in my 922.Thanks DISH!.:goodjob:


You are correct! Mine has also. 

I would like to think that Ray [email protected] Network is the reason. I sent him a PM yesterday and he responded early this morning saying he had submitted a trouble report.

Great going, Ray. Huray for the D.I.R.T. :hurah:


----------



## chris83 (Aug 16, 2006)

Just installed the OTA module in my 722K yesterday, primarily for the sub-channels and the couple stations Dish doesn't carry in HD.

I have info for:

2.2, 2.3 & 2.4: all PBS
5.3: MeTV
5.4: Antenna TV
11.2: Weather Now

Just "Digital Service" readout for:

5.2: KSTC
5.6: This TV
5.7: Live Well Network
28.1: WHWC
28.2: WPT2
28.3: WPT3


----------



## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

Are those 28.? channels from Wisconsin?

Yes, it would be nice to get info for 5.2, 5.6, and 5.7.


----------



## Mike109 (Jun 28, 2010)

Originally I didn't have info for ThisTV & Dish said that I never would. But 6 or 12 months later the info magically appeared. Keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

Thanks, Mike,

We did have ThisTV info from March to June, when Hubbard rearranged the channels.

I'm still waiting.


----------



## shadough (Dec 31, 2006)

One thing I find thats interesting: I have 2 recvrs w/ the MT2 module, the 922 recvr seems to have lots of info in its guide data for almost every channel, where-as for the other recvr, if its a digital sub-channel, it just says "Digital service". And oddity but not that big of a deal. All connected to the same dish/switch. The 922 is connected to the internet obviously, for sling purposes, whereas the other box is only connected to the dish. Not sure that that would have anything to do w/ it........but. 1 of these days I might connect the 211 to the ANT, just to see what it gets, but I think i'd need to run a wire.........maybe.


----------



## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

So it seems anyone in a position to actually get anything done about this topic quit giving a flying **** about this long ago.

Is that an accurate assessment?

Any other options?


----------



## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

I purchased me a RCA ANT 1600F model. No amplifier used. Scanned in 10 stations. Will purchase an amplifier soon. Stations in average have a signal of 75. Hund the 1600F by a window. Stations come in verrrrrrrry clear. Then I moved the aerial to a different window and direction. The signal is much better now and even scanned in the PBS channels,


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk mobile app


----------



## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

Anyone ever use the Esky HG-831 outdoor aerial? What I like about this is the build in rotor. Less expensive than a Leaf Flat indoor aerial.

I can use my old Direct TV pole which is securely mounted on my roof to secure the aerial.




Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


----------



## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

Does anyone get guide info at all with their OTA module?

All I get is "digital service" on All my channels. No help at all. I could have just left it [antenna] plugged into my tv for all the good it's doing.

Waste of time.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Most of us get OTA data (whether it be on a Hopper or other Dish receivers) for just the major networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, CW) and then a handful of subchannels depending on your market like AntennaTV, MeTV, and some others.

But lots of us have gaps in OTA data, especially for sub-channels.

IF you're getting no EPG data at all... after having your Hopper and OTA module working for a couple of days... then there is likely a problem.


----------



## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Most of us get OTA data (whether it be on a Hopper or other Dish receivers) for just the major networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, CW) and then a handful of subchannels depending on your market like AntennaTV, MeTV, and some others.
> 
> But lots of us have gaps in OTA data, especially for sub-channels.
> 
> IF you're getting no EPG data at all... after having your Hopper and OTA module working for a couple of days... then there is likely a problem.


Stewart,
I'd be satisfied with local major networks ota data. My receiver is a 222K.

The other one[ 211k] the antenna goes directly into the antenna connection.

"Digital service" on both. :hair:

The installer told me AFTER the install this is very common.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Usually the receiver needs at least an overnight update to get the EPG data fully populated on many of the Dish receivers... but if you still have a problem after that, you might have a faulty receiver.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Also check my website http://uplink.jameslong.name/locallist.htmland see what data DISH is sending. If the channel is not on the list you will not get EPG.

(Noting that 129 Sinclair channels have recently been removed from the list.)


----------



## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanks James, it shows I get these on WA 129 sat. [ which I did]

Since I had to go to EA [ LOS issue] I'm without 129. So, that's why I don't get the guide I guess???

If I got 129 with EA I wouldn't need the OTA module. So why was I told by a CSR that would help me?


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

You should still get the OTA guide for the listed channels regardless of what arc you are on. My market is Eastern Arc with the special OTA channels listed on Western Arc and guide data comes.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

For all of those who need OTA data for channels there is www.titantv.com


----------



## pjs344 (May 21, 2014)

I was hoping to see most of my local Las Vegas, NV sub channels listed on Dish's ota uplink list and to be surprised that Dish actually has fewer ota sub channels then DTV. The weird thing is DTV dumped ota back in 2012 and Dish did not. So why is Dish lacking here? It would have been a plus to for me to switch to Dish if Dish had most the sub listings for the Las Vegas locals. O'well I guess Dish does not see ota as being that important to keep it up to date and hope to gain subscribers with it since DTV dumped ota. Not sure how Tivo, Tablo and other fare with local sub listings and there all about locals?


----------



## RBA (Apr 14, 2013)

pjs344 said:


> I was hoping to see most of my local Las Vegas, NV sub channels listed on Dish's ota uplink list and to be surprised that Dish actually has fewer ota sub channels then DTV. The weird thing is DTV dumped ota back in 2012 and Dish did not. So why is Dish lacking here? It would have been a plus to for me to switch to Dish if Dish had most the sub listings for the Las Vegas locals. O'well I guess Dish does not see ota as being that important to keep it up to date and hope to gain subscribers with it since DTV dumped ota. Not sure how Tivo, Tablo and other fare with local sub listings and there all about locals?


Is DISH a SATELLITE delivery company or an OTA provider? DISH tries to deliver the 4 major networks along with the satellite programming. If you want OTA invest in an OTA system.


----------



## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

RBA said:


> Is DISH a SATELLITE delivery company or an OTA provider? DISH tries to deliver the 4 major networks along with the satellite programming. If you want OTA invest in an OTA system.


Then why do they sell OTA tuners for multiple series of receivers and why are they about to release a new updated tuner for the Hopper? That argument works great for DirecTV who doesn't sell an OTA tuner anymore and doesn't seem to want to get back into it, but Dish has always supported OTA integration much more than anyone else (except maybe TiVo) and they are using this functionality along with skinny bundles to allow folks to subscribe to pay TV without paying for locals. If they're going to go down this road, they should get serious about it.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

RBA said:


> Is DISH a SATELLITE delivery company or an OTA provider? DISH tries to deliver the 4 major networks along with the satellite programming. If you want OTA invest in an OTA system.


DISH is a content delivery company. Their content includes OTA channels (delivered via satellite) as well as EPG data for OTA channels (EPG delivered via satellite for video received OTA). They also provide limited content to their receivers over the Internet (including video channels and other content).

The primary service is via satellite ... but as noted, DISH leases and sells receivers capable of OTA reception and sells modules for receivers to add OTA reception. Delivery of the EPG for those channels is part of their support of the reception of those channels.

Reception of any OTA channel the receiver can see is supported. EPG for every channel and subchannel is not.


----------



## bnewt (Oct 2, 2003)

Could someone explain the following issue:

I have 2 HWS, both have the single usb tuner. I have the ota antenna connected to each. Each is able to receive all of the ota locals including the sub channels. All sub channels except for 1. It is a KET channel that has 3 channels in total (68.1, 68.2 & 68.3) Both HWS get 68.01 & 68.02 easily. On 68.3 it comes up like it is going to tune in with the channel description, time, etc, but it never gets a picture or sound. It is always a black screen. I think it has to be something related to that specific sub channel only. The signal strength indicator says 100%.

Anyone got any ideas?


----------



## FarmerBob (Nov 28, 2002)

bnewt said:


> Could someone explain the following issue:
> 
> I have 2 HWS, both have the single usb tuner. I have the ota antenna connected to each. Each is able to receive all of the ota locals including the sub channels. All sub channels except for 1. It is a KET channel that has 3 channels in total (68.1, 68.2 & 68.3) Both HWS get 68.01 & 68.02 easily. On 68.3 it comes up like it is going to tune in with the channel description, time, etc, but it never gets a picture or sound. It is always a black screen. I think it has to be something related to that specific sub channel only. The signal strength indicator says 100%.
> 
> Anyone got any ideas?


Try this to find where your stations are and see if your antenna isn't a "tad" off. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ennaweb.org/&usg=AOvVaw11-6j559HHoUUfbELOPzgx


----------



## bnewt (Oct 2, 2003)

FarmerBob said:


> Try this to find where your stations are and see if your antenna isn't a "tad" off. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwjr2ISpxs7YAhUOyGMKHdIiCjUQFghBMAQ&url=https://www.antennaweb.org/&usg=AOvVaw11-6j559HHoUUfbELOPzgx


I don't understand how that would help. If I am already receiving the main channel & 1 sub-channel, how will moving the antenna help to receive the 2nd sub channel. If I wasn't receiving any of the channels I could understand.........

I was leaning more to some broadcast setting on this one sub channel that may be slightly different. It comes in perfectly on the televisions and an the old ota dvr sold by dish years ago, just not on the HWS.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

bnewt said:


> I was leaning more to some broadcast setting on this one sub channel that may be slightly different. It comes in perfectly on the televisions and an the old ota dvr sold by dish years ago, just not on the HWS.


The station may not be giving that sub-channel enough bandwidth. I agree that reception of the station would not change by subchannel ... it is all one big data feed per station. The local station is doing something to that subchannel that the HWS doesn't understand.


----------



## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

If you are receiving one channel on a frequency, you are receiving them all.

ATSC channels and subchannels are all carried in the same RF signal.

If one channel is not decoding. the problem is at the station.

Give them a call, perhaps they are only transmitting a blank channel.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Michael P said:


> NOTE: I have been reporting the OTA guide issues for my DVR in the Cleveland DMA since the beginning and nothing has ever changed...


Could you please add WMFD 068-01 to your list of OTA guide issues? (if you are still tracking this issue, and if WMFD was not already on your list) We are at the outer fringe of the Cleveland DMA, so you may not receive our station OTA where you are, but you would receive WMFD via satellite on Dish channel 012-00 (SD and HD) with the proper guide information. At some point (long before this thread was started, and this is an *old* thread) the link to map the satellite-delivered guide data to the OTA channel was broken, and it has never been fixed, even though Dish still uplinks the guide data.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

WMFD Mansfield ... The DISH receiver is looking for a station transmitting TSID 08F1 (2289 decimal) - which is correct according to the FCC. The station (according to RabbitEars.info) is transmitting TSID 0001. The station needs to correct the error on their transmitter.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> WMFD Mansfield ... The DISH receiver is looking for a station transmitting TSID 08F1 (2289 decimal) - which is correct according to the FCC. The station (according to RabbitEars.info) is transmitting TSID 0001. The station needs to correct the error on their transmitter.


Thank you for this information. I will pass this along to my contact, and come back here to update if the problem gets fixed. :thumbsup:


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Could you please add WMFD 068-01 to your list of OTA guide issues? (if you are still tracking this issue, and if WMFD was not already on your list) We are at the outer fringe of the Cleveland DMA, so you may not receive our station OTA where you are, but you would receive WMFD via satellite on Dish channel 012-00 (SD and HD) with the proper guide information. At some point (long before this thread was started, and this is an *old* thread) the link to map the satellite-delivered guide data to the OTA channel was broken, and it has never been fixed, even though Dish still uplinks the guide data.


I can't get WMFD as an OTA signal, it's the only station in my DMA that I can't receive. (I live in the middle of the Cleveland "antenna farm" and also get WKBN from the Youngstown DMA, but that excellent signal is going bye-bye in the repack  ).


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

There is a new problem with guide data. The "repack" has begun in the Cleveland DMA. WOIO and WUAB are now sharing WOIO's RF 10 carrier. After doing a rescan (I tried several times) WUAB's guide data is a mirror of the 2 WOIO subchannels. The guide data for 19.1 (CBS) and 19.2 (MeTV) is mirrored on 43.1 (supposed to be MyNet) and 43.2 (supposed to be Bounce). NOTE: It's not the station's signal at fault. Rescanning my Samsung TV got the correct PSIP data including current and next program's guide data. Only the Dish DVR (a 622) gets it wrong.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Michael P said:


> NOTE: It's not the station's signal at fault. Rescanning my Samsung TV got the correct PSIP data including current and next program's guide data. Only the Dish DVR (a 622) gets it wrong.


DISH and DIRECTV do not use the limited guide data sent OTA. They match the local channel up against the data they receive from listing providers.

DISH uses a "transport stream ID" which identifies the station (the number for each station can be found in the FCC database). If the station changes their "TSID" or is not transmitting the correct TSID with their programming the station cannot be matched to the correct data. So it certainly can be the station's fault for not sending the correct information in the transport stream.

If you can receive the station OTA and have TSReader and a compatible receiver you should be able to see what data the station is actually sending. It sounds like the station is sending the TSID for another station instead of their own.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Michael P said:


> There is a new problem with guide data. The "repack" has begun in the Cleveland DMA. *WOIO and WUAB are now sharing WOIO's RF 10 carrier.* After doing a rescan (I tried several times) WUAB's guide data is a mirror of the 2 WOIO subchannels. The guide data for 19.1 (CBS) and 19.2 (MeTV) is mirrored on 43.1 (supposed to be MyNet) and 43.2 (supposed to be Bounce). NOTE: It's not the station's signal at fault. Rescanning my Samsung TV got the correct PSIP data including current and next program's guide data. Only the Dish DVR (a 622) gets it wrong.


That sucks. I have never been able to receive WOIO OTA here since the digital transition. Are any stations moving to WEWS's frequency? That is the station that I receive the most reliably, other than my nearby Mansfield-area stations.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

crodrules said:


> That sucks. I have never been able to receive WOIO OTA here since the digital transition. Are any stations moving to WEWS's frequency? That is the station that I receive the most reliably, other than my nearby Mansfield-area stations.


No one is moving to WEWS's frequency as of right now. (Although down the road it's possible some of the displaced low power stations could start sharing with them)

For Cleveland these are the shares:
WUAB (MyNet) is already sharing with WOIO (CBS)
WRLM (TCT) is going to share with WEAO (PBS) starting on Tuesday
WDLI (TBN) is going to share with WVPX (Ion)

WOIO (along with many others) has an application to boost their power and change their pattern after the repack is done, so hopefully you can get it better. It comes from the same general area as WJW, so maybe something else is going on for you. They also have a repeater coming from the same tower as WVPX on UHF 24, maybe your TV is picking that up instead and ignoring VHF 10 since not all TVs handle the presence of the same major-minor channel the same, some ignore one of them and only keep the last one it scanned, even if that last one is weaker.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

KyL416 said:


> No one is moving to WEWS's frequency as of right now. (Although down the road it's possible some of the displaced low power stations could start sharing with them)
> 
> For Cleveland these are the shares:
> WUAB (MyNet) is already sharing with WOIO (CBS)
> ...


I think my issue is that I am just too far from the stations. And, the stations are not all in the exact same direction, and my antenna is not on a rotor and is aimed directly at WEWS to get the strongest signal from that station. (Coincidentally, that helped me pick up WGGN after they converted to digital, since they also happened to move their transmitter directly between my house and WEWS. I usually get 100 percent signal on WGGN.)

WRLM is moving to WEAO's frequency? That is a shame, since I could occasionally pick up WRLM before. I have not received WEAO OTA for a long time. On the other hand, although I rarely pick up WVPX, it does come in a lot more often than WDLI.

I have never received WJW OTA since the digital transition, either. However, I know that my antenna works for VHF stations because my local WMFD (RF 12) comes in just fine. When I first read about WOIO's repeater, I was hoping that would help me, but no go. Perhaps part of the problem is that WSFJ also broadcasts on UHF 24, and my antenna occasionally picks up that station from the opposite direction.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

James Long said:


> DISH and DIRECTV do not use the limited guide data sent OTA. They match the local channel up against the data they receive from listing providers.
> 
> DISH uses a "transport stream ID" which identifies the station (the number for each station can be found in the FCC database). If the station changes their "TSID" or is not transmitting the correct TSID with their programming the station cannot be matched to the correct data. So it certainly can be the station's fault for not sending the correct information in the transport stream.
> 
> If you can receive the station OTA and have TSReader and a compatible receiver you should be able to see what data the station is actually sending. It sounds like the station is sending the TSID for another station instead of their own.


This has happened for two different repacked signals: WOIO and WVPX. In both cases the new "piggy-backed" channels with different virtual channel numbers (WUAB on WOIO and WDLI on WVPX) get added with the correct virtual channel number, correct call letters but incorrect guide data. Can a single RF channel have 2 different TSID's? If not, that is the problem.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

KyL416 said:


> No one is moving to WEWS's frequency as of right now. (Although down the road it's possible some of the displaced low power stations could start sharing with them)
> 
> For Cleveland these are the shares:
> WUAB (MyNet) is already sharing with WOIO (CBS)
> ...


WDLI is already carried on WVPX, even though their original signal has not been shut off yet. The ch 24 repeater for WOIO in Akron is going away, as another station (WEAO I believe) is taking over ch 24 in the repack.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Michael P said:


> This has happened for two different repacked signals: WOIO and WVPX. In both cases the new "piggy-backed" channels with different virtual channel numbers (WUAB on WOIO and WDLI on WVPX) get added with the correct virtual channel number, correct call letters but incorrect guide data. Can a single RF channel have 2 different TSID's? If not, that is the problem.


My understanding is that each sub-channel has its own unique TSID. (Or at least, it is *supposed* to be unique, but the stations are apparently broadcasting the same TSID for more than one sub-channel.) That is how Dish maps the guide data to the proper sub-channel, but the improperly duplicated TSID on the re-packed channels is now screwing up the guide mapping.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

crodrules said:


> My understanding is that each sub-channel has its own unique TSID.


TSIDs are assigned by the FCC per station, not per subchannel. (Along with some international coordination with Industry Canada and IFT so Canadian and Mexican stations don't conflict with these values)



crodrules said:


> improperly duplicated TSID on the re-packed channels is now screwing up the guide mapping.


The problem is stations that now share have the TSID of the host station. I'm doublechecking with some contacts, but from what I've seen so far the TSID is something that is set in the Program Association Table, so it's impossible for one signal to transmit multiple TSIDs.

Check out my reply in another thread where this was brought up for more details. But basically, Dish will have to address this on a station by station basis since the FCC's database alone doesn't provide an indicator of which stations already started sharing and which ones have yet to share, and they still list the seperate TSIDs.

EDIT: I just got confirmation, it's not "improper" at all, signals can only transmit one TSID, so Dish has to update their OTA data to use the host station's TSID


----------



## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

Michael P said:


> There is a new problem with guide data. The "repack" has begun in the Cleveland DMA. WOIO and WUAB are now sharing WOIO's RF 10 carrier. After doing a rescan (I tried several times) WUAB's guide data is a mirror of the 2 WOIO subchannels. The guide data for 19.1 (CBS) and 19.2 (MeTV) is mirrored on 43.1 (supposed to be MyNet) and 43.2 (supposed to be Bounce). NOTE: It's not the station's signal at fault. Rescanning my Samsung TV got the correct PSIP data including current and next program's guide data. Only the Dish DVR (a 622) gets it wrong.


I have a similar problem in the DC area. We have two channel sharing combinations that have incorrect guide data. WUSA (9)is the "landlord" for WJAL (68). The guide data for 68.0 is correct but the guide data for 68.1 is really for 9.1. WFDC (14) is the "landlord" for WDCW (50). the 50.0 guide data is correct but 50.1 guide data shows information for 14.1.

Right now not many folks are seeing these issues but as cahnnel sharing becomes more common more people will experience it.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

KyL416 said:


> The problem is stations that now share have the TSID of the host station. I'm doublechecking with some contacts, but from what I've seen so far the TSID is something that is set in the Program Association Table, so it's impossible for one signal to transmit multiple TSIDs.


Okay, so all of the sub-channels have the same TSID, and then Dish adds a -01, -02, etc. to differentiate the guide data feeds for the different sub-channels? How would Dish resolve this when there is more than one -01 (019-01 and 043-01) and more than one -02 (019-02 and 043-02) using the same TSID? I still think the easiest solution to this mess would be to completely eliminate the virtual channel mapping and make stations map to the actual frequency they are using, just like the analog days when channel 19 *was* channel 19.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> Okay, so all of the sub-channels have the same TSID, and then Dish adds a -01, -02, etc. to differentiate the guide data feeds for the different sub-channels? How would Dish resolve this when there is more than one -01 (019-01 and 043-01) and more than one -02 (019-02 and 043-02) using the same TSID?


The matching DISH uses is TSID+subchannel number, which works great as long as there is not more than one subchannel using the same number. The combined transport streams where there are two -01 feeds break the matching.

DISH needs to change they way they match EPG to channels ... especially as channel sharing grows.



crodrules said:


> I still think the easiest solution to this mess would be to completely eliminate the virtual channel mapping and make stations map to the actual frequency they are using, just like the analog days when channel 19 *was* channel 19.


The stations spend too much on branding. In my market everyone knows the channels by number. Forcing channels to lose their numbers would cause stations to not cooperate with channel sharing. If you had a market with a channel 16 and a channel 22 who agreed to share channel 19 how would you assign numbers? Which channel would lose and become 19-2? If I owned a station I'd fight to keep the branded number.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

If Dish pays attention to the major number in their guide mappings, it hopefully shouldn't be a problem. They'll just prefer the guide data entry where the TSID, Major and Minor matches over the guide data entry where just the TSID and Minor matches. But if all they are going by is TSID and minor number, it would have already been creating some problems before sharing was a thing. i.e. in NYC WNYW and WWOR split their channels so WNYW's signal has two -2's and WWOR's signal has two -3's:
WNYW (RF 44/TSID 2161)
5-1 WNYW HD
5-2 Movies!
5-4 The Light
9-2 WWOR SD

WWOR (RF 38/TSID 2019)
5-3 WNYW SD
9-1 WWOR HD
9-3 BUZZR
9-4 Heroes & Icons


As for using their RF numbers, that was a non-starter for countless reasons, and with spectrum sharing and the upcoming repack it would have just made things more insane for the average viewer. Like take WXTV in NYC who's now sharing with WFUT: "Oh you know that channel you've been watching on 41 since the 1960s? That can now be found on 40-1, while if you turn on 41-1 you'll now get some low power channel that used to be on channel 30 showing nothing but infomercials". Fast foward to them sharing and the subsequent repack: "Oh you know that channel that you only just now got used to being on 40-1? They can now be found somewhere on 30-x, but next summer you have to turn on 26-x to find them."


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> The stations spend too much on branding. In my market everyone knows the channels by number. Forcing channels to lose their numbers would cause stations to not cooperate with channel sharing. If you had a market with a channel 16 and a channel 22 who agreed to share channel 19 how would you assign numbers? Which channel would lose and become 19-2? If I owned a station I'd fight to keep the branded number.


Well, in the specific case we are discussing, both WOIO and WUAB are owned by the same company. WUAB already brands their newscast as "Cleveland's 19 News on 43." So, it should be relatively easy to re-brand WUAB (043-01) as 019-03, 043-02 becomes 019-04, and 043-03 becomes 019-05. (If there even is a third WUAB sub-channel anymore. I still have 043-03 (Grit) in my guide because I never re-scanned. Dish never carried guide data for that sub-channel anyway.)



KyL416 said:


> As for using their RF numbers, that was a non-starter for countless reasons, and with spectrum sharing and the upcoming repack it would have just made things more insane for the average viewer. Like take WXTV in NYC who's now sharing with WFUT: "Oh you know that channel you've been watching on 41 since the 1960s? That can now be found on 40-1, while if you turn on 41-1 you'll now get some low power channel that used to be on channel 30 showing nothing but infomercials". Fast foward to them sharing and the subsequent repack: "Oh you know that channel that you only just now got used to being on 40-1? They can now be found somewhere on 30-x, but next summer you have to turn on 26-x to find them."


That is why I think they should wait until after the re-pack, and then re-brand all of the stations. Hopefully, they will be done re-packing for awhile, so it would only be one adjustment, and things would be less confusing going forward.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

crodrules said:


> Well, in the specific case we are discussing, both WOIO and WUAB are owned by the same company.


While that's the case in Celevland, in most parts of the country stations are sharing with competitors, and in some cases it would even result in competitors getting their old number. (Especially since how they planned this out so in parts of the country nearly every channel on 31-33 is being moved to 34-36 to allow displaced channels in the vicinity to use those numbers without creating new interference, as well as some other swaps within the same market to move certain stations to adjacent numbers so they can have a shared antenna bay and transmitter without sharing their spectrum)

They're not going to change things around and force viewers and stations to drop numbers that in some cases have been in use since the pre-WWII experimental TV era, pay to acquire new domains, commission new graphics, logos, mic-flags, branded jackets/umbrellas, repaint their news vehicles, modify their sets, install new signs on their buildings, new office supplies, and pay for a local marketing blitz to inform viewers of the change, just to make it convenient for a small subsection of subscribers of one pay provider who's currently having problems mapping OTA guide data for shared stations, when it's easier for Dish to adjust the way they map OTA data.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

KyL416 said:


> While that's the case in Celevland, in most parts of the country stations are sharing with competitors, and in some cases it would even result in competitors getting their old number. (Especially since how they planned this out so in parts of the country where nearly every station on a number is being shifted to allow displaced channels to also move without creating new interference, as well as some other swaps within the same market to move certain stations to adjacent numbers so they can have a shared antenna bay)
> 
> They're not going to change things around and force viewers and stations to drop numbers that in some cases have been in use since the pre-WWII experimental TV era, just to make it convenient for a small subsection of subscribers of one pay provider who's currently having problems mapping OTA guide data for shared stations, when it's easier for Dish to adjust the way they map OTA data.


I was not addressing just this specific problem. I have always felt that the virtual mapping was confusing. (I scan my channels and see that I have a signal on channel 15, yet it maps to channel 5?) I understand that it was necessary as a transitional step going from analog to digital, especially before the digital transition when digital stations were on temporary frequencies. I was hoping that the stations would re-brand once the digital transition was complete, though. Now, with the re-pack, I can see that there was one additional step planned, so it makes sense that the stations did not re-brand, since they are still not on their final frequencies. I still say that after all of the shifting is done, the stations should re-brand to their actual frequencies to make things less confusing for *everyone*, not just Dish customers.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

In what world would it NOT be confusing for the average viewer to have stations give up channel numbers they had since the 1930s, have other channels take those numbers, and have the ones that are sharing relocate to some random subchannel of a competitor?

The average viewer has no reason to even know the RF numbers of their local stations, heck many TVs don't even have an indicator of what the real RF number is for a given channel. They just plug their new TV in and have it scan and see the channels on the numbers they've known for as long as they've been alive or lived in their DMA. It was kind of the entire point of the virtual numbering system.

The multiple stations with the same TSID issue is a problem that's ONLY affecting subscribers of Dish who have their OTA tuner. Cable doesn't have OTA tuners, viewers who just have OTA tuners and no pay provider rely on the PSIP EPG data, OTA TiVO users are updated as soon as TiVO updates their data to use the new RF number, while DirecTV already handles matching based on major-minor alone so all that was needed for them was to rerun initial antenna setup.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Since you mentioned cable, I should point out that most viewers still use cable, and that cable companies have no obligation to put the channels on a channel number that matches the OTA channel number. Cable companies change their channel line-ups all the time, putting local stations on different channel numbers, even without the stations changing their on-air branding. Conversely, even if the stations do change their on-air branding, they would still likely be on the exact same cable channel number they are currently on, at least for awhile.


----------



## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

crodrules said:


> cable companies have no obligation to put the channels on a channel number that matches the OTA channel number.


Actually they do if a local station specifically requests for it as part of a must carry request. Which you can bet nearly every lesser station that suddenly finds them assigned a more optimal number will do to get better slots.

It's exactly what KJWP did in the Philly DMA and WJLP did in the NYC DMA after they exploited a loophole to move across the country. As an attempt to block that loophole, the FCC created a new channel 4 for southern New Jersey, and WACP used that to get their channel that mostly shows infomercials on channel 4 on cable systems in the DMA. The courts eventual ruled in the stations favor and let them move across the country, so KJWP got channel 2 on most Philly cable systems.

WJLP attempted the same thing in the NYC DMA, but in that case both KYW and WFSB objected since they had 3 and carriage on some bordering counties as a neighboring local. Eventually the FCC ruled that they had to use 33 instead of 3, which resulted in Nickelodeon getting displaced on most Optimum systems in the DMA.

WRNN did a similar thing back in 2010 with their must carry request on Western Long Island Optimum systems, resulting in Syfy being displaced from channel 48. Optimum tried to sue to block this since WRNN comes from the northern suburbs and they never had cable carriage on Long Island until FiOS came along, but they lost and Optimum was forced to do it on the systems where WRNN's OTA signal reached.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Add to the list of things that are different on cable than satellite: Satellite providers are required to deliver locals on contiguous channel numbers. With the mapdowns to their OTA channel brand that is easy ... just put the channels on their well known number. Before channels were mapped down to their OTA channel DISH used contiguous blocks for each market in the 7xxx, 8xxx and 9xxx ranges. (When DISH first launched locals they were in the 7xx and 8xx ranges.)

As for the shared channel problem, the channel description has the information needed to match the TSID, Major and Minor numbers on most channels but the data needed is not available on for all channels. For example, in my market (South Bend IN) WSBT purchased the Fox affiliation and runs it as "22.2" OTA. DISH transmits the channel as channel 28 (the former Fox affiliate's major channel number). The real channel 28 is no longer carried by DISH (or DIRECTV). Matching TSID "047B" subchannel 02 works great for WSBT2 ... but if "channel 28" was thrown into the mix it would break the mapping. DISH would need to change the channel number on the satellite version of WSBT2 to "22" ... which would conflict with "22.1" (which is carried as channel 22). All of the special EPG entries for subchannels not carried on DISH satellite would also break.

DISH would be better off creating a new TSID/Major/Minor mapping descriptor that would replace the current TSID/Minor mapping descriptor. Hopefully they are working on it.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Similarly, Dish puts the satellite-delivered feeds (SD and HD) of WMFD on channel 12, to match their broadcast frequency, but WMFD's virtual channel number is still 068-01. This is probably partly what broke the OTA guide mapping for WMFD. (I know James pointed out the problem with the TSID that WMFD is actually broadcasting, but I have no idea when that changed, and the guide data has been broken pretty much this entire decade so far.) So, either Dish needs to move WMFD to channel 68 (which is where Directv puts it) or WMFD should change its virtual mapping to 012-01. WMFD no longer brands itself by channel number, and hasn't done so in a long time, so that should not be a problem in this case.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> Similarly, Dish puts the satellite-delivered feeds (SD and HD) of WMFD on channel 12, to match their broadcast frequency, but WMFD's virtual channel number is still 068-01. This is probably partly what broke the OTA guide mapping for WMFD. (I know James pointed out the problem with the TSID that WMFD is actually broadcasting, but I have no idea when that changed, and the guide data has been broken pretty much this entire decade so far.) So, either Dish needs to move WMFD to channel 68 (which is where Directv puts it) or WMFD should change its virtual mapping to 012-01. WMFD no longer brands itself by channel number, and hasn't done so in a long time, so that should not be a problem in this case.


Has WMFD ever been right for the OTA mapping? I do not see where DISH changed their data but I did find a capture where WMFD was sending the wrong TSID in 2013. Get the station to send the right TSID and the EPG should appear.

It is interesting that DISH is using channel 12 instead of 68. They did that in my market for a .2 subchannel that was carried (the .1 was on the correct channel).


----------



## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Okay, so all of the sub-channels have the same TSID, and then Dish adds a -01, -02, etc. to differentiate the guide data feeds for the different sub-channels? How would Dish resolve this when there is more than one -01 (019-01 and 043-01) and more than one -02 (019-02 and 043-02) using the same TSID? I still think the easiest solution to this mess would be to completely eliminate the virtual channel mapping and make stations map to the actual frequency they are using, just like the analog days when channel 19 *was* channel 19.


Not only that but channels on the same TSID can have totally different channel numbers like RF channel having 5.1 and 7.1 both on their carrier, also with multiple channels broadcast over one RF channel it would be insanity to try to unscramble which channel was which without virtual channels.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> Has WMFD ever been right for the OTA mapping?


The guide data was mapped correctly when Dish first started carrying WMFD (SD-only at that time) at the beginning of 2009. I wasn't paying attention exactly when, but sometime later that year or in 2010 (maybe 2011 at the latest, but I am pretty sure it was before then) the OTA guide data mapping stopped working, so that must be when WMFD changed the TSID they were broadcasting, unless Dish changed something on their end that broke it first.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> The guide data was mapped correctly when Dish first started carrying WMFD (SD-only at that time) at the beginning of 2009. I wasn't paying attention exactly when, but sometime later that year or in 2010 (maybe 2011 at the latest, but I am pretty sure it was before then) the OTA guide data mapping stopped working, so that must be when WMFD changed the TSID they were broadcasting, unless Dish changed something on their end that broke it first.


My oldest capture is from May 2010. The settings for WMFD are the same TSID DISH is looking for today.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> My oldest capture is from May 2010. The settings for WMFD are the same TSID DISH is looking for today.


Which means the OTA guide was still working at that point, and the change must have happened after that. Thanks for helping narrow it down.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

crodrules said:


> Which means the OTA guide was still working at that point, and the change must have happened after that. Thanks for helping narrow it down.


It means DISH has not changed the mapping since (at least) May 2010. When it stopped working was when the station started sending the invalid TSID ("1").


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

James Long said:


> It means DISH has not changed the mapping since (at least) May 2010. *When it stopped working was when the station started sending the invalid TSID ("1").*


Right. That was the part I was trying to narrow down. So, sometime after May 2010, but before 2013. My own memory of when I noticed that the guide data was no longer working would put the change sometime in late 2010 or in 2011.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Well, in the specific case we are discussing, both WOIO and WUAB are owned by the same company. WUAB already brands their newscast as "Cleveland's 19 News on 43." So, it should be relatively easy to re-brand WUAB (043-01) as 019-03, 043-02 becomes 019-04, and 043-03 becomes 019-05. (If there even is a third WUAB sub-channel anymore. I still have 043-03 (Grit) in my guide because I never re-scanned. Dish never carried guide data for that sub-channel anyway.).


 GRIT is carried locally IIRC on WEWS 5.2. For a short time it was carried on both 43.3 and 5.2 at the same time. Can you imagine if WOIO still had GRIT to carry along with Bounce and WUAB?

Rescanning on a built-in tuner gets 19 & 43 correct (including guide data from the PSIP data). It's only Dish that's getting it wrong.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Michael P said:


> GRIT is carried locally IIRC on WEWS 5.2. For a short time it was carried on both 43.3 and 5.2 at the same time. Can you imagine if WOIO still had GRIT to carry along with Bounce and WUAB?
> 
> Rescanning on a built-in tuner gets 19 & 43 correct (including guide data from the PSIP data). It's only Dish that's getting it wrong.


Right, but as I said, rescanning would not do any good for me, since I have never been able to receive WOIO's digital signal on RF10. The irony is that I still have correct OTA guide data on my Dish receiver, for stations that I can no longer receive. (WUAB and its subchannel)


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Right, but as I said, rescanning would not do any good for me, since I have never been able to receive WOIO's digital signal on RF10. The irony is that I still have correct OTA guide data on my Dish receiver, for stations that I can no longer receive. (WUAB and its subchannel)


I bet you are in Lake County. On another forum (AVS Forums) there is a poster in the same situation as you. I never understood how WOIO could be on RF 10 with CFPL right across the lake. I used to watch CFPL like a local station every summer as a kid growing up in Euclid.

So the guide data for WUAB remains correct for you because your DVR is searching for RF 28.


----------



## crodrules (Nov 21, 2016)

Michael P said:


> I bet you are in *Lake County*. On another forum (AVS Forums) there is a poster in the same situation as you. I never understood how WOIO could be on RF 10 with CFPL right across the lake. I used to watch CFPL like a local station every summer as a kid growing up in Euclid.
> 
> So the guide data for WUAB remains correct for you because *your DVR is searching for RF 28*.


Wrong on the first count (Richland County) but correct on the last part. I think my issue with WOIO is simply my distance from the station. I looked up WOIO's coverage map on the FCC website once, and their contour doesn't even touch Richland County. In fact, I seem to remember the Wikipedia page for Richland County listing WBNS as the de-facto CBS affiliate for us, even though it is out-of-market. Unfortunately, I have not been able to pick up that station OTA either. My nearby local station, WMFD, is on RF12, but I hope it wouldn't be causing interference two channels away from RF10. Then again, before the digital transition was complete, I used to be able to occasionally pick up the digital OTA signals from both WTOL and WTVG from Toledo. After the digital transition, when they moved their digital signals to their old analog frequencies (RF11 and RF13) I have not been able to receive either of those stations since then.


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

crodrules said:


> Wrong on the first count (Richland County) but correct on the last part. I think my issue with WOIO is simply my distance from the station. I looked up WOIO's coverage map on the FCC website once, and their contour doesn't even touch Richland County. In fact, I seem to remember the Wikipedia page for Richland County listing WBNS as the de-facto CBS affiliate for us, even though it is out-of-market. Unfortunately, I have not been able to pick up that station OTA either. My nearby local station, WMFD, is on RF12, but I hope it wouldn't be causing interference two channels away from RF10. Then again, before the digital transition was complete, I used to be able to occasionally pick up the digital OTA signals from both WTOL and WTVG from Toledo. After the digital transition, when they moved their digital signals to their old analog frequencies (RF11 and RF13) I have not been able to receive either of those stations since then.


Believe it or not, WOIO in it's "Action News" days used to give the temperature for Cardington Ohio in their weather forecasts. I had to look Cardington up on a map. They are so close to Columbus and so not anywhere near any Cleveland station, let alone the weakest signal in the market. They can't even serve your area which is inside the DMA, yet they want eyeballs in a more distant town. I bet they got a signal report one time during strong tropo that led them to believe their signal made it that far southwest.


----------



## roodof (Apr 4, 2018)

excuse me for butting in here but i'm looking for current active thread on dish ota,with most recent responses so here goes,Any chance thru a software update to the hopper 3 or issuing a quad ota module so one could record 3 or 4 separate ota signals simultaneously? their $12 monthly fee for locals is nuts,i have their dual ota now but run into conflicts when wanting to record a third ota at the same time(prime time doesn't work cause I have dropped locals.It seems to me they could even do a software upgrade to get a hopper 3 capable of quad ota recording,any insight would be appreciated


----------



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

James Long said:


> Has WMFD ever been right for the OTA mapping? I do not see where DISH changed their data but I did find a capture where WMFD was sending the wrong TSID in 2013. Get the station to send the right TSID and the EPG should appear.
> 
> It is interesting that DISH is using channel 12 instead of 68. They did that in my market for a .2 subchannel that was carried (the .1 was on the correct channel).


I can't answer that question because very few can actually get WMFD OTA. They are in the Cleveland DMA, but just barely. Mansfield is nearly half-way to Columbus. It's a rural area and their Ch 12 signal does not reach the more populated areas of the DMA. In fact if you can receive WMFD OTA chances are you can't get all the Cleveland station's signals. Getting carriage on E* & D* to the entire DMA really helps their reach, however there is little interest in the programming. I tune in from time to timeout of curiosity. The local newscasts location clips have out-of-sync audio, but the live anchor is in-sync.


----------

