# Harman Kardon - upgrade or not?



## lparsons21

I'm in the mood to start considering an upgrade from my Harman Kardon AVR 247. Here's how it all started:

I've complained about the SD on DirecTV for quite some time. But this last week I was fiddling with tech and my AV rack just because I could, and found a combination that makes the SD enjoyable if not quite as good as HD.

I've been using a Sony DN1000 AVR for a couple years or so, but I had a Harman Kardon AVR247 in a closet because I couldn't get a decent price for it when I tried to sell it. So I thought, what the hell... It's time for a switch up. Swapped out the Sony and put the Harman Kardon back in place. Used an HDMI switcher 'cause the HK has only 2 HDMI ports. That worked fine, but I started playing source resolutions. And what I found was that setting both HRs to 720p and Native Off produced a better picture than 1080i does. I figure that's cause the HK has a Farouda video processor in there for massaging the video. And it only goes up to 720p, in case of 1080i/p, the HK just bypasses.

Then I got to thinking, why the heck keep that HDMI switcher in there? It just clutters up the setup, and adds one more thing to glitch, and since I'm not using 1080i, I can use component video out instead with digital audio. Made that switch, put the BluRay and AppleTV (V2) into the two HDMI plugs and all is slick and clean again.

So today I started fiddling around and checked out a couple of SD channels and recordings I had made but didn't watch 'cause they sucked so bad, and found that with the setup the way it is, the SD is very good. No, it doesn't make me want to watch only SD, but it is enjoyable for some shows that just aren't in HD on Direct.

So now I'm wondering if I should consider the upgrade from a video point of view. I'm perfectly happy with the audio on my Harman Kardon, and frankly if I upgrade it will be with another HK unit as nothing in the price range matches that sweet HK SQ imo.

I'm looking at the AVR 2600, which is a model year older than the latest, but it appears to have all I would want, and the price is certainly much better than the newest by a far shot.

The 2600 upscales and massages from practically anything to 1080p and my big question is does it do it better than I'm seeing with the 720p the AVR247 is limited to for upscaling/massaging video?

And please, don't recommend other brands of AVR as it really isn't a part of the consideration.


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## lparsons21

At the risk of talking to myself...

I have been researching a new AVR and decided that I should broaden my scope and include other brands. Threw out a few brands as I don't like the SQ they produce compared to the HK. That left Denon, Pioneer and Sherwood-Newcastle in the mix.

Boy what an eye-opener this all was. Yeah, all the newest had nifty features like Airplay and such, and most had network connections so you can upgrade the firmware via the internet. But reading specs showed that this years crop was a bunch of marketing speak for 'upgrades' that really weren't in many respects.

Most of the Denons and Pioneer gear that was a yearly increment showed that this years crop was less than last years crop in many respects. For instance, the Pioneer 1120-k had THX2 certification but this years 1121-k doesn't and you have to go pretty far up the food chain to find a model with it. Not picking on Pioneer, with Denon the same kinds of things are really evident. Basically the better units were last years and prior units but finding them new is not an easy task. 

And power ratings! I guess the nice way to describe it is 'optimistic'! 

When you look at the power supplies, you know that they aren't going to push out anywhere near what they claim. I saw one with I believe a 90w/channel rating, yet the power supply was less than 300w! Even at the best design with an 85% efficient power supply, that means even if all that power got to the power amp and it was 100% efficient, the best they could do would be around 37w/channel all channels driven. Maybe 'optimistic' isn't really the right word!

Even HK has fallen victim to the economics of the AVR consumer market. Smaller power supplies and they don't rate their new gear as all channels driven, which was always the case in the past.

Bottom line is that I would gain little going to a newer box unless I want to climb pretty high in the food chain, with the corresponding much higher price.

This is very disappointing.


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## wilbur_the_goose

Denon AVR-4311 is your friend. Best I've ever owned.


Wait till you hear what Audyssey XT32 can do. You won't need all that power. 

I used to have a Denon AVR-5803A. Lots more power but the 4311 sounds a helluva lot better.


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## Cholly

lparsons21 said:


> When you look at the power supplies, you know that they aren't going to push out anywhere near what they claim. I saw one with I believe a 90w/channel rating, yet the power supply was less than 300w! Even at the best design with an 85% efficient power supply, that means even if all that power got to the power amp and it was 100% efficient, the best they could do would be around 37w/channel all channels driven. Maybe 'optimistic' isn't really the right word!


Generally speaking, that 90 watts/channel figure means that each channel is capable on its own of providing 90 watts. Unless you see something that says, 90 watts/channel, all channels driven" they are only talking about the max power each channel is capable of providing. :bang


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## Davenlr

lparsons21 said:


> So now I'm wondering if I should consider the upgrade from a video point of view. I'm perfectly happy with the audio on my Harman Kardon, and frankly if I upgrade it will be with another HK unit as nothing in the price range matches that sweet HK SQ imo.


DVDO Edge or iSCAN....


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## lparsons21

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Denon AVR-4311 is your friend. Best I've ever owned.
> 
> Wait till you hear what Audyssey XT32 can do. You won't need all that power.
> 
> I used to have a Denon AVR-5803A. Lots more power but the 4311 sounds a helluva lot better.


I've heard very good things about that model Denon and Audyssey XT32, but realistically at $1250 for even a refurb it isn't likely to happen for me. I do appreciate the suggestion though.

As to the actual power needed, well my current amp is rated at 50w/channel all 7 channels driven and I seldom raise the volume over -20db. My comments about the power ratings on these current models is more about the fiction they are spreading.


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## lparsons21

Cholly said:


> Generally speaking, that 90 watts/channel figure means that each channel is capable on its own of providing 90 watts. Unless you see something that says, 90 watts/channel, all channels driven" they are only talking about the max power each channel is capable of providing. :bang


Yeah I know that, and since the power ratings are as much fiction as fact, I've learned to expect it. I guess since HK used to rate theirs as all channels driven, I got spoiled.


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## wilbur_the_goose

Personally I think. HP hasn't kept up with the times.


Ps. The 4311 can be had for less. I paid a lot less than the price you quoted. Just be patient and look for sales. (Egghead.com has sales,from time to time)


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## lparsons21

Davenlr said:


> DVDO Edge or iSCAN....


Thanks for those recommendations. I need to do some reading and research.


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## lparsons21

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Personally I think. HP hasn't kept up with the times.


I think you mean HK????

In some ways that is very true. Like the various networking things most have been throwing in their boxes recently. But for me, between my BluRay player and AppleTV, none of those things are of much importance at all.

But when it comes to SQ in the midrange AVRs, HK holds its own quite well imo.

If/when I finally upgrade it will be for SQ and PQ with upscaling because all my useage is centered around the TV. I don't play music only on that system, or at least very seldom. So performance with the various video streams, satellite, and BluRay is very high on the list. While 'musicality' isn't.


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## lparsons21

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Personally I think. HP hasn't kept up with the times.
> 
> Ps. The 4311 can be had for less. I paid a lot less than the price you quoted. Just be patient and look for sales. (Egghead.com has sales,from time to time)


I'll keep my eye peeled. Right now I'm thinking strongly of the Sherwood-Newcastle R-972. The biggest holdback is that it seems when you get a good one, they are great, but when you get one not so good it is all downhill in a hurry.


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## John Williams

Let me warn you. I have installed a few Sherwood Newcastle's. The ones made in the last few years are Junk! Capitol J there. Not the same as they were many years ago.

I also will recommend using a DVDO for your video scaling, if you really need it. The scaler built into most AVR's are no better than what's in the TVs. So you usually are not doing yourself any favors. The only exception to this, are the highend AVR's that have high quality scalers (and market the brand name of the scaler chip extensively). But you pay for that as well. 
The other problem is: even with the highend models, sometimes the internal scaler isn't done right and causes issues. If it's an important feature to you, wait for many reviews on a model to come out, to make sure there are no issues. Or just get the DVDO if scaling is that important in your system.
Interesting note, since you mentioned THX. THX certified AVRs have a bypass mode for the scalers in them. This is the recommended setting by THX. It has been this way for years, unless THX has changed it recently.

Caution also on the price. Yeah you can get most anything for dealer cost off the internet these days but all AVR's seem to have quarks with them these days as well. If you don't buy from an authorized dealer, you maybe setting yourself up for a heartbreak. (I'm biased as I'm a dealer of course - but the warning is still legitimate).


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## harsh

For less money than similarly appointed HK or Denon gear, Onkyo offers some pretty comprehensive AVRs.

I've gone through a couple of midline HK AVRs in the last ten years and neither of them drives speakers anymore. I use other gear from Harman International (AKG mics and JBL speakers) and have found them to be much more robust than their AVRs.


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## lparsons21

Thanks John. Good info.

I didn't know that about THX specs as I never think about THX for the video for some reason. In fact, I thought it was all about the audio. Good to know there is more to it than that.

The only thing I really would like for video scaling is for the SD from Direct or Dish as the HD from both is fine with me, even the 720p. My HK247 does a reasonably good job of upscaling the massaging that with its Faroudja Cinema up to 720p. On this model it doesn't massage past 720p.

The audio from my current HK is great. I think my research and discussion are more about new bug-itis than anything else. Yeah the HDMI burps now and then, but reading in many spots tells me that is true of even the best and newest equipment to some degree, and I would like the SD upped to 1080p.

And yeah, I know about the non-authorized dealers issue. For instance, no one can sell you a new Elite series Pioneer online as they are don't authorize that for anyone and then you have no warranty. But if the price from a non-authorized dealer is low enough that buying a 3rd party warranty, it lessens the risk.

in the case of the Sherwood R-972, it is from an authorized dealer, so would have the 3-year warranty. But it is good to get opinions about them from many sources. I appreciate yours.

Now I just have to decide how much is wanting worth?


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## lparsons21

harsh said:


> For less money than similarly appointed HK or Denon gear, Onkyo offers some pretty comprehensive AVRs.
> 
> I've gone through a couple of midline HK AVRs in the last ten years and neither of them drives speakers anymore. I use other gear from Harman International (AKG mics and JBL speakers) and have found them to be much more robust than their AVRs.


Thanks for the suggestion. Onkyos just have way too many quality issues for me to want to deal with.

And we can agree to disagree about how well HK gear drives speakers. Sound quality and loudness are not even part of the reason I'm looking at new. My HK AVR247 will drive all my speakers and sub to well past volume levels that I will listen at, and will do it in fine fashion imo.


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## harsh

lparsons21 said:


> My HK247 does a reasonably good job of upscaling the massaging that with its Faroudja Cinema up to 720p. On this model it doesn't massage past 720p.


Many of the mid and upper range AVRs from last year and this year support 4K.

The only stinker seems to be available input types on some of the units (S-VHS and component video as well as some of the digital audio ports) are disappearing from the lower-line AVRs.


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## harsh

lparsons21 said:


> And we can agree to disagree about how well HK gear drives speakers.


That my HK AVRs no longer produce sound (actually one has a mean 60Hz buzz) is not a matter of opinion. These are the only pieces of audio gear I've ever owned that failed electronically.

When they worked, they worked great. They just didn't last very long (the AVR510 lasted six days past the warranty) and when it was time to decide what to do with them, I found some new feature or input that they lacked and judged them not worth having repaired.

Reputation means bupkis as the marque's change manufacturing operations like most people change bedsheets. Sometimes they get better and other times, worse.


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## lparsons21

harsh said:


> Many of the mid and upper range AVRs from last year and this year support 4K.
> 
> The only stinker seems to be available input types on some of the units (S-VHS and component video as well as some of the digital audio ports) are disappearing from the lower-line AVRs.


I noticed the 4K on some units. But of what value is it really? You can't test to see if it even works today, and since the spec will take awhile to come to the consumer and pro-sumer markets, how much will things change? And no source material doesn't help the matter either. Not to mention no 4K displays yet, or affordable ones at any rate. I figure that right now, the 4K upscaling is all about marketing and nothing about practicality.

And yeah, the newest models at the lower and many midlines are lacking in connections. But they are offering a slew of HDMI connections to attract the average buyer. You now, TV, Sat, BluRay - all done via HDMI. I think that there are two reasons for that happening.

#1 - all about the Benjamins! People are being much more selective about how much and what they buy and the mfgs are trying to get more boxes in the price point that sells well.

#2 - at the lower end of the scale, how many audiophiles/videophiles are really shopping there? And the consumer gear is all HDMI these days, well that and USB which they have also added.

My HK AVR247 has a slew of all kinds of connections. (2) HDMI inputs, 7 channel analog ins and outs and many others. If I wanted to I could add a standalone power amp and feed it 7 channel audio just fine.

Or I could get a new AVR and use it as a preamp, IF it had 7 channel outputs.

More and more I'm finding that to get a really decent price and many features of the newer stuff, I might be better off getting a 1 or 2 model year older instead of the latest.


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## lparsons21

harsh said:


> That my HK AVRs no longer produce sound (actually one has a mean 60Hz buzz) is not a matter of opinion. These are the only pieces of audio gear I've ever owned that failed electronically.
> 
> When they worked, they worked great. They just didn't last very long (the AVR510 lasted six days past the warranty) and when it was time to decide what to do with them, I found some new feature or input that they lacked and judged them not worth having repaired.
> 
> Reputation means bupkis as the marque's change manufacturing operations like most people change bedsheets. Sometimes they get better and other times, worse.


Ah, I missed that you had one with a problem. I thought you were unhappy with a working one. My bad.

In my case, my AVR247 is 5 years old and still working just fine, with only an occasional HDMI hiccup now and then to remind me of what a piss-poor interface HDMI really is.

With HK, these newest models are designed in China, which was not the case until these units. And it shows in the specs. HK today isn't HK of yesterday by far.


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## TBoneit

lparsons21 said:


> Most of the Denons and Pioneer gear that was a yearly increment showed that this years crop was less than last years crop in many respects. For instance, the Pioneer 1120-k had THX2 certification but this years 1121-k doesn't and you have to go pretty far up the food chain to find a model with it. Not picking on Pioneer, with Denon the same kinds of things are really evident. Basically the better units were last years and prior units but finding them new is not an easy task.
> 
> And power ratings! I guess the nice way to describe it is 'optimistic'!
> 
> When you look at the power supplies, you know that they aren't going to push out anywhere near what they claim. I saw one with I believe a 90w/channel rating, yet the power supply was less than 300w! Even at the best design with an 85% efficient power supply, that means even if all that power got to the power amp and it was 100% efficient, the best they could do would be around 37w/channel all channels driven. Maybe 'optimistic' isn't really the right word!
> 
> Even HK has fallen victim to the economics of the AVR consumer market. Smaller power supplies and they don't rate their new gear as all channels driven, which was always the case in the past.
> 
> Bottom line is that I would gain little going to a newer box unless I want to climb pretty high in the food chain, with the corresponding much higher price.
> 
> This is very disappointing.


What you describe is exactly the same as I see when I go to the grocery store. Packages that look at first glance to be the same size but reading the label reveals less content. It looks like the AVR makers have noticed the same thing and decided to emulate it in their new models.


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## kikkenit2

lparsons21 said:


> Ah, I missed that you had one with a problem. I thought you were unhappy with a working one. My bad.
> 
> In my case, my AVR247 is 5 years old and still working just fine, with only an occasional HDMI hiccup now and then to remind me of what a piss-poor interface HDMI really is.
> 
> With HK, these newest models are designed in China, which was not the case until these units. And it shows in the specs. HK today isn't HK of yesterday by far.


If you want to buy a receiver go here.

http://www.avsforum.com/f/90/receivers-amps-and-processors

They are slanted toward Denon, but cover every brand and model in minute detail. I also have the Denon 4311. It has the best room correction software in any reasonable price range. Also has 1000 watt power supply that drives 4 ohm speakers fine. To get the best price on new product you have to call the vendor. Authorized dealers can't advertize the best price. Call Electronics Expo first. So what is your real budget $$$ wise?


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## lparsons21

thanks for the suggestion. I've been reading there until my eyes started bleeding!! 

I'd say that they are a bit Denon happy over there, but Pioneer gets good coverage also and to a lesser extent many other brands.

Budget wise I want to stay at $600 or less, which opens up lots of possibilities.

a. Go with just a video processor. @less than $400 that is viable and is on my list of things to consider.

b. Denon 2113ci - @$649 list and available for much less, it is getting serious consideration. 3-year warranty, lots of HDMI inputs (I need 5), and Audyssey XT it has lots going for it.

c. Pioneer 1120 or 1121 - yeah last couple years models, but were and are still, better than the current model that replaces them. Used w/a 3rd party warranty puts them around the $450-550 price range. Lots of HDMI, and THX2 certified.


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## kikkenit2

I agree that the Pioneer vsx-1121 is a good value. I bought one 7 months ago for $400 as a backup/spare. It is streaming airplay in my garage as a 2.1 setup right now. Sold out and this year is a huge step down. Receiver market is pretty stale this year. 4k is no big deal. Denon is expensive, but pretty stable. And jdsmoothie & batpig over there know everything about them. Did you call EE for shipped prices?


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## lparsons21

No, I haven't called anyone yet. At this point I'm trying to keep actual dollars needed out of the equation and instead look for features and SQ/VQ information. I'm doing that because I don't want to miss something that I should consider because the list price scared me away.

One question that keeps niggling around in my old brain is bass. I'm used to and love the way that HK handles the bass. Very strong without being overwhelming and you get to not only hear it but feel it. You know, the kind of bass that your ears aren't sure you're hearing, but when it isn't there you know it.

So how does Denon do in this regard? I know that in some models from a few years back that Denons were a bit flatter than the HKs after calibration, is that still the case? 

For info, I have Cerwin Vega surrounds (89db) and a Velodyne VRP-12 12" subwoofer in a classic 7.1 setup. The room is my front room (I'm a bachelor) and measures around 12'x18'. Not a difficult room to calibrate in so far.


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## kikkenit2

lparsons21 said:


> No, I haven't called anyone yet. At this point I'm trying to keep actual dollars needed out of the equation and instead look for features and SQ/VQ information. I'm doing that because I don't want to miss something that I should consider because the list price scared me away.
> 
> One question that keeps niggling around in my old brain is bass. I'm used to and love the way that HK handles the bass. Very strong without being overwhelming and you get to not only hear it but feel it. You know, the kind of bass that your ears aren't sure you're hearing, but when it isn't there you know it.
> 
> So how does Denon do in this regard? I know that in some models from a few years back that Denons were a bit flatter than the HKs after calibration, is that still the case?
> 
> For info, I have Cerwin Vega surrounds (89db) and a Velodyne VRP-12 12" subwoofer in a classic 7.1 setup. The room is my front room (I'm a bachelor) and measures around 12'x18'. Not a difficult room to calibrate in so far.


It helps to have a large subwoofer like me. Denon does the bass just fine. The trick with auddysey and most software is manually set all the speakers to "small" instead od "large" and all the bass will play through the sub. From there you can manually eq somewhat and surely turn the volume control of that speakere seperate from the rest.

I used to like HK, but there just isn't the value there anymore. Everybody else caught up. Get a receiver with a network connection and the connections you need. If you are worried about enough power to tower speakers get one with a full set of rca preamp outs. Those don't come on most denon models though. On paper Onkyo is the best value. I won't touch them again. Their hdmi board runs so hot among other defects the last 4 years. Yamaha is decent, but the room correction is their own brand.


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## CCarncross

I'm a huge Denon convert after my Yamaha days....I havent found any _affordable _equipment I like better to power my Paradigm Studio 60's.


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## Davenlr

lparsons21 said:


> thanks for the suggestion. I've been reading there until my eyes started bleeding!!


From reading your thread, it seems you are 100% happy with your current HK AVR's audio, and all the improvement you are looking for is on inputs and video, hence my suggestion of the DVDO. Personally, I have a Denon AVR (pre-HDMI) 7.1 AVR, and was very happy with it, but needed to upgrade the switching and video processing so I could actually watch a few SD channels.

The mosquito noise reduction, upscaleing everything to [1080p] which matches my TV's native resolution, and edge enhancement/detail controls to make SD look bearable were my primary concerns. I rarely use any of the other adjustments. Some of them I had to look up to see what they did. The switching is fault proof. You can set it to manually switch to the last powered on device, or set it like mine, manual, so the harmony remote does the switching.

If your current HK actually needs upgrading in the audio area, then I can understand looking at other AVRs, but if its solid and you love it.... just remove the video from its tasks


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## lparsons21

I am pretty happy with my current HK from an audio standpoint, but at 5 years old it is getting a little long in the tooth. Hence the search for a replacement while not being in a hurry.

And I did look over the suggestions you made about the video processors, and it gave me quite a bit of very good reading. The reviews I found of the DVDO Edge (now Edge Green) were all pretty positive about it.


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## lparsons21

Well I finally came to a decision. I just ordered the Denon AVR-2113ci.

Thanks to those that responded to my questions. All your points and suggestions gave me lots to ponder over the last few days.


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## Davenlr

That sounds like a sweet unit... Post how it sounds. I love my Denon. Cant afford a 4K tv tho. Would be interested to see how standard 1080i looks when upconverted tho.


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## lparsons21

Yes, it does seem to have everything I want in a unit, and I will post a followup after I get it in place and calibrated, including video comments.

I came very close to getting the AVR-2313 as it has Audyssey DSX which gives the ability to use front wide speakers, but in the end I figured it was a feature I wouldn't really use so why pay the extra for it.


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## kikkenit2

When you do the audyssey setup with the microphone remember to manually set the speakers to small after it is done. The receiver almost always sets the speakers to large. If you leave it that way the subwoofer won't get the bass signals. Pretty stupid but that is how it works. Read on. lol

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1


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## lparsons21

Yeah I know about the speaker settings, I think every damned eq setup does the same thing, or at least on my HK and previous Sony amp they did.

Thanks for those links, I've been in both of them a few times already. All you ever want to know about Audyssey and Denon xx13's in 4000+ posts!!


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## lparsons21

I just got my AVR-2113ci today and you can officially color me IMPRESSED!! 

First let me get the bad and dumb out of the way. Got it all connected just the way I wanted, power on, no video! Fiddled with connectors and finally called Denon. They tried to help and even suggested to send it back since it seemed mine was defective. Of course that was after they kept insisting that it needed HDMI 1.4 cables. I didn't argue with them, but new that was just bogus info. I was just about to box it up and send it back when I thought to try some other things.

Now for the dumb part, or at least it seems so. I had selected an HDMI input that had nothing connected at that time, so I decided to select the Satellite tuner. Voila`, I got me some video! But that brings up a question. I didn't see anything in the quick setup guide that indicated that I needed any inputs connected to do a setup, what did I miss?

Now for the good!

Audio :
Frankly I wasn't expecting this unit to sound as good as the HK AVR247 it was replacing, but I was pleasantly blown away! The highs and middles were crisper than the HK and the bass was strong without being overpowering. That was after running the 6 position Audyssey setup. It set the speaker sizes correctly, but the crossovers seemed a bit low @60 for some. I changed that to 80, hopefully that won't mess things up.

Video :
This was the main thrust of the upgrade. I wanted to get better upscaling to 1080p from the few satellite SD channels I view. The 2113 does a superb job of this. No it doesn't make SD look like HD, but it sure makes it look a whole lot better and the scaling and massaging of the SD video is much better than the HK's.

I'll most likely fiddle with changing speakers around to try out front heights, but that isn't certain as I am very pleased with this unit so far.


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## satcrazy

lp,

can I ask where you purchased your new denon?


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## lparsons21

I got mine from AAFES, the military exchange store. I made sure they were an authorized seller so the warranty would apply and they had a sale going on that made it competitive although not the cheapest place.


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## lparsons21

I've got to comment of clarity. While playing at my usual fairly loud volume levels, the performance is superb.

But even better is the low volume performance! Audyssey EQ really makes listening a lower volumes much more enjoyable than my HK ever did at low volumes. My normal listening level is around -25db for TV shows and -15db for BluRay/DVDs, but this morning I flipped on the rig to watch something while drinking coffee. Others here sleep much later than I do, so I turned the volume down to -40db and was frankly amazed at how listenable that was. Dialogue was clear and easily heard and the other sounds were all right there too. The HK just didn't have that ability. At lower volumes the center (dialogue) speaker was almost impossible to hear well enough to know what was actually being said.

The bass on the Denon is different than what was produced by the HK, it is smoother and more integrated into the soundfield. The HK could sometimes be a bit overpowering with bass at times.

I suppose that is the difference between 2007 technology and 2012 technology.


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## kikkenit2

Thanks for the followup. All good news too.


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## lparsons21

kikkenit2 said:


> Thanks for the followup. All good news too.


It is very nice when an upgrade actually improves everything! 

One thing I fiddled with just a few minutes ago. On the HR24, I had it set to do 720p and 1080, which means that the HR was doing the de-interlacing and upscaling to 720p, then the Denon did the upscale and massage to 1080p to the TV.

So I added in both 480i and 480p with native on. Now when I select an SD channel/recording, it is sent from the HR as 480i and the Denon is doing all of it. Better picture was the result. Certainly still not as good as HD, but very much better than the HR or the TV can do on their own.


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## Laxguy

Great news! Always nice to hear when someone is very pleased with his new equipment. 

I have a newish lower end Denon and it rocks for my purposes. I haven't even really gotten into trying to shape sounds at all- don't even use the presets well. But a huge upgrade from a ten year old Sony.


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## lparsons21

Laxguy, I don't know which model Denon you have, so these suggestions may not apply since there are certainly differences between models.

My current setup is the classic 7.1 speaker setup using the 2 back channels. The room I'm in and the way it is laid out makes that very doable. I'm assuming you've run the Audyssey setup, but if you haven't, it is worth doing. I listened to mine before running that and the difference in performance and sound was very much improved.

Also, for my TV watching, I have selected the Movie mode which means on mine that is is decoding Dolby 5.1 and layering Dolby PIIx to fill in the 2 back channels, and also layering over the PCM when the channel isn't doing Dolby 5.1.

If you're not doing 7.1, then layering Dolby PIIx will fill in the surrounds and give your room a fuller sound. It does an excellent job of this.

I also do that same kind of layering for the BluRay discs so that if they are not encoded with a full 7.1 soundtrack (and most aren't), then it fills in those back speakers.

Basically by using that layering, you get a better immersion in the soundfield and makes it more movie theater like.

One other thing that I like with the networkable Denons is that they can be controlled a bit by a web browser. And it works mostly in just about any web browser on any platform. But on Windows only, not only can you control it, you can save your configuration to disk. That could come in handy if I ever need to do a complete unit reset, or if it needed to be sent off for repair.


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## Laxguy

Many thanks. My setup is very simple, as I am going to be moving and don't want to wire up anything here now, nor purchase a woofer. It's a 3.0. Good left and right, decent center speaker. 

I guess I don't know what the best setting is for either classical music or movies or sports. I think that "Pure" is what I want for music, and DolbyPIIx for all else?


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## lparsons21

That's what I would use. I don't really just listen to music on my rig, all is TV.

But since you have all those settings, you can play around a bit with them to see what sounds the best to you. For me, the Dolby PIIx Movie setting sounds the best, but there is Neo 6 that some seem to like better. 

Kind of like the Audyssey setup routine. It sets the room eq to be as ideal as it can make it, but if your ears aren't ideal (mine sure aren't!), you may want to set some level differences. For instance, because of the way my left surround speaker is mounted, I bumped the level up on it a tad so I could hear it better. To me it that sounds proper, to Audyssey, I'm off a bit.


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## Laxguy

Ah, good. I did use Audessy in the first few minutes of setting it up, and may go again to see if there are tweaks, esp. since my right ear is a bit stronger than the left. Also, my model is the 1613. Best $400 I've spent in a bit, similar to the $200 3D Sony TV!


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