# R15- One for the road...



## mvaneps (Nov 19, 2005)

I have a question for all the R15 unofficial beta testers. I am sending mine back. I know what y'all are saying already, 'enough with the whining, send your's back already and quit cluttering up the message boards'. Well I am gonna. Tomorrow morning I going to call the good people at VE and figure out how to send it back. I am going with directivo of some sort instead. So, I have 2 R15's and have had them for about 2 weeks now. 

I have learned to tolerate the skips and stutters in playback.

I have learned to tolerate occasional crashes, the constraints of a 50 series limit, and the 100 to do list limit. 

I can forgive the lack of a 30 second advance button, the occasional remote has a mind of it's own trick, the idea that I have to hit 2 buttons to look at the guide and the painfully slow adjustment of the prioritizer list. 

I am even willing to overlook the complete lack of an accurate owners manual either online or anywhere, the fact that I never talked to anyone at DTV that had ever used the R15 more than an hour, and the complete lack of response of ANY KIND from anyone at DTV anywhere about the trouble people are having and their plan to fix it.

This is a tough one... I will EVEN forgive the R15 for hanging when I tried to delete a recorded show using the double dash method causing it to go into 'thinking' mode for about 10 minutes before finally erasing the show...and the 2 shows that were recording at the time I hit the double dash, including my effin Survivor episode!!!

But there is one thing that I cannot get over. If you set the R15 up to record a series it DOESN'T record the freakin' series. There I said it. Right at this very moment I have a show that airs every single night at 10pm set to record as a series. It's a basketball show that doesn't even have reruns, it is new every night. The last couple of nights it didn't record. I go in last night to see what happened and there was no record of the show in the history. I looked at tonights show in the guide and it didn't have the little stack of R's or even a single R. I look in the prioritizer and the show is definitely set up to record as a series. I move it up in the priority list. I go back to the to do list to check if it has somehow magically appeared, it hadn't. I cuss the machine a few times and then decide to take matters into my own hands. I go back to tonights show in the guide and hit the record button. You know what it says? It says I can't record it because it is already set up to record! But it isn't set up to record. This happens frequently to me and my wife, not just on this particular show. Does anyone have any idea why this might be happening? Am I missing some basic concept in this machine? Is there some other step besides hitting record twice in the guide to record every show? Is this a machine that simply doesn't do what it was 'designed' (and I use that word loosely) to do? 

Honestly, I hope that DTV is working on fixes for this box right now. Since they are in stores now, people are going to be just as pissed as I am that when they come home to watch Dr. Phil or The Hour of Power and it isn't there. The people running out to Best Buy right now aren't the beta testers and this isn't a 'power user' issue. If they aren't working on fixes then this box will be a disaster for them. 

So there ya go, unless someone can point out what I am doing wrong, or DTV magically sends out an update in the next 48 hours or even a sign from the mothership that things are going to be ok, then I am sending this little silver piece of crap back to it's maker. And then I will stop cluttering up the airwaves with all my whining and get back to playing some online poker or doing something less useful with my time.

Thanks for reading.


----------



## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

mvaneps said:


> Is this a machine that simply doesn't do what it was 'designed' (and I use that word loosely) to do?


Yes. And it astounds me that they are apparently putting this thing into wider distribution when it can't consistently and reliably achieve the most basic function of a DVR, the recording of series.


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Not sure but two thoughts:

1. Is there anyone else in your home using the machine?

2. If there is (or not) the one "feature" that could be the culprit is if you have the show in guide an hit the "R" (record) by accident, or on purpose, it rotates to the next option which is "no record" if it is set for a series. What I'm saying is in guide, a press of the "R" is 1. record, 2. record series, 3. don't record. 
It would be "nice" if it questioned the deleting of a series record but that's one of those things that need some cleaning up. The feature is nice but it needs that one last "tweak". 

Good luck whatever you decide.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Well I haven't had many of the problems you're having but I now have had it miss a show for me. Thats rather annoying, I have a feeling it has to do with the same reason the thing records every episode of most every show. I seriously wonder if it's just the machine or a combination of that and horrible guide data. They need to use the original air date and not the stupid Rerun or New flag. Also some time back people asked about the 28 Day rule with Tivo if it exists on this box or not. I can say no it doesn't I have had the same episode of a show recorded 2-3 times over the course of the weekend after I have deleted it. These problems need to be fixed and acknowledged.


----------



## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

At the risk of sounding like a whiner....unfortunately I'm in the same boat. Among other things, it's missing daily recordings -which is driving us nuts. 

Dependable it's not.

Nobody at D* seems to even be able to comprehend any of the problems I try to convey. Have they even used this thing at all?

In light of the fact that this will someday be replacing all of my units, I'm going to stick it out a while longer and see if these problems are soon fixed. My doubts are derived from the total lack of understanding by D* however; if they cannot understand what the problem IS, how can they be expected to fix it?


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

A few of us have hinted that we'd like an indication that they are seeing postings on their DTV forum but nothing yet. I do know that they edited some posts that Earl had on there early on that they do see them. I'm hoping that as the release and questions came right at the holiday that soon we may see another software upgrade or indication that it's being worked on.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Marcia_Brady said:


> In light of the fact that this will someday be replacing all of my units, I'm going to stick it out a while longer and see if these problems are soon fixed.


Some folks are very forgiving. Marcia, this isn't directed at you, just a general observation.

If you bought a TV that had a picture 25% of the time would you stick it out? If you bought a vacuum that picked up 75% of the dirt in your carpet would to stick it out? If you bought a computer that rebooted in the middle or you working every day or two would you "stick it out"? (Opps, I guess other than something from Microsoft.... :lol

If the R15 isn't ready for prime time, send it back and thell them to ship you an R10. That's running tested software and works.

I can only imagine what's going to happen come Christmas when everyone is given their R15 purchased from BB and CC. Unless their software guys come up with some quick fixes DTV is going to get a huge black eye from this one.


----------



## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> If you bought a TV that had a picture 25% of the time would you stick it out? If you bought a vacuum that picked up 75% of the dirt in your carpet would to stick it out? If you bought a computer that rebooted in the middle or you working every day or two would you "stick it out"? (Opps, I guess other than something from Microsoft.... :lol


The only reason I'm gonna stick it out is that I won't have another alternative down the road. These are going to be the only units offered IINM, and being a HD buff, I'm going to have to grab their HD unit (HR20?) with the new MPEG4 format to replace my HR10/250. Hopefully, by then......

They (D*) need to _listen_ to what the problems are here, and at least...as Kanyon mentioned....acknowledge that there is some problems and that it's being worked on.

Has anybody else had this 'daily' recording problem mentioned by the OP??


----------



## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

Marcia_Brady said:


> Has anybody else had this 'daily' recording problem mentioned by the OP??


Yes, I've had the exact same problem, among others. Just one example is a SL for Conan, #4 in my prioritizer. The last two episodes have simply been skipped. No mention in history, no apparent conflicts, no recordings.


----------



## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

Marcia_Brady said:


> The only reason I'm gonna stick it out is that I won't have another alternative down the road. These are going to be the only units offered IINM, and being a HD buff, I'm going to have to grab their HD unit (HR20?) with the new MPEG4 format to replace my HR10/250. Hopefully, by then......
> 
> They (D*) need to _listen_ to what the problems are here, and at least...as Kanyon mentioned....acknowledge that there is some problems and that it's being worked on.


I'm in the same boat as you, as far as eventually replacing hr10s. This software just won't cut it. I'd like to hang in there and continue testing this thing, but I just don't have the time to waste on it anymore, and as I mentioned in another thread, I'm sending mine back. I'm not as optimistic as some around here are that we'll see all the problems on this thing get fixed anytime soon.


----------



## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Well, I know how much more of a drag it is with HiDef....larger hd's + the extra bandwidth create a heckuva load, and at this point I'm not too optimistic. But it's still early.

The buzz on this thing has certainly died down. Where the heck is everybody? If there isn't that many people doing what we're doing, then there aren't going to be enough complaints to get D* moving in the right direction!

The problem is that it normally take a whole bunch of people logging the same problem/symptoms with D* to get them looking at a fix. Hopefully, it's not going to take the Xmas rush for that to happen.


----------



## mvaneps (Nov 19, 2005)

Well, if nothing else I am glad to hear that it is not user error and I am not alone with my issues.


----------



## Manchesters (Nov 20, 2005)

Although it is a pain to do, I have all of my programs manually set to record. Years back I ended up with a big headache trying to use Season Passes, and decided that in the long run manual record was the more reliable way to go. 

I decided this morning to add an R-10 to my collection, to replace the DVR7000. The Tivo style programming is just so darned simple, and going from screen to screen is so convenient. And I HATE GRID GUIDES!!!!!!!!!! They STINK, rofl. I guess after 4 years of Tivo I am spoiled rotten!!!!!! Am I correct in my guessing that stand alone Tivo units will work with plain old Direct TV receivers???? That would always be an option I guess.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Manchesters said:


> Although it is a pain to do, I have all of my programs manually set to record. Years back I ended up with a big headache trying to use Season Passes, and decided that in the long run manual record was the more reliable way to go.
> 
> I decided this morning to add an R-10 to my collection, to replace the DVR7000. The Tivo style programming is just so darned simple, and going from screen to screen is so convenient. And I HATE GRID GUIDES!!!!!!!!!! They STINK, rofl. I guess after 4 years of Tivo I am spoiled rotten!!!!!! Am I correct in my guessing that stand alone Tivo units will work with plain old Direct TV receivers???? That would always be an option I guess.


Yes you are correct. I have SA Tivo's running on my older Sony Receivers. They work just great, but lack Dual Tuners.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Marcia_Brady said:


> Well, I know how much more of a drag it is with HiDef....larger hd's + the extra bandwidth create a heckuva load, and at this point I'm not too optimistic. But it's still early.
> 
> The buzz on this thing has certainly died down. Where the heck is everybody? If there isn't that many people doing what we're doing, then there aren't going to be enough complaints to get D* moving in the right direction!
> 
> The problem is that it normally take a whole bunch of people logging the same problem/symptoms with D* to get them looking at a fix. Hopefully, it's not going to take the Xmas rush for that to happen.


Why is it the public's responsibility to get any corporate entity to release a product the public can accept as "working".

Honestly, I believe the best way to get ahold of DTV's attention, the best way to tell management you have problems is for everyone to send their R15's back and demand a R10 as a replacement.

Realize that the higher on ups pay attention to just a few numbers. Do they pay attention to complaints? Some do. Do they pay attention to these forums? No. But they do pay attention to 2 numbers:

- # of R15's Shipped
- # of R15's Returned

When that second number starts heading up, they will then start asking why. Folks that keep their unit, waiting for a fix, complaning here, compiling a list of "bug fixes" will not play a part in getting the unit fixed. Folks that send their unit back saying "let me know when it's ready for prime time" will make much more of an impact.

Although that's just my opinion.


----------



## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

Your points are valid, well taken and most definitely food for thought. 

Just got off the phone with D* again, and feeling somewhat abandoned here so this might very well end up being the road I take.


----------



## jimmymiko (Nov 19, 2005)

I am not going to place my R15 in the main viewing room until the next update or even after that. The kids won't notice anything missing on the R15. I do know that my daughter figured out this R15 in less than 2 days which I thought was pretty good. She is 12.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

jimmymiko said:


> I am not going to place my R15 in the main viewing room until the next update or even after that. The kids won't notice anything missing on the R15. I do know that my daughter figured out this R15 in less than 2 days which I thought was pretty good. She is 12.


Jimmy,

Again, you are accepting a lessor product. As I stated before, what's the best way for R15 customers to register their complaints? Return the unit. Call DTV or VE or whoever you got the unit from and tell them "this doesn't work" I want a R10. They will eventually get the message.


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Just curious Wolffpack, when did you send yours back?


----------



## mtchamp (Nov 24, 2005)

The best thing you can do is send the R15 back for the TiVo R10. It's available and the best thing you could do to get DirecTV's attention.

If the R15 is a total disaster for DirecTV, increases churn, causes customers with a quality TiVo experience to jump to the new Comcast HD TiVo's that will be coming out, then you might see DirecTV renewing it's agreement with TiVo and developing the next generation HD DirecTiVo's.

I've had DirecTV for 10 years and they decided to cripple TiVos and take a step backwards to save a lousy dollar per sub?. When that dual tuner CableCard HD TiVo or the Comcast TiVo comes out, I'm probably leaving DirecTV for the better full featured TiVos that will be available by the end of next year.

The full featured standalone CableCard TiVos coming by the end of next year are going to be powerful machines. You might leave DirecTV for for a better PVR from TiVo unless DirecTV still allows you a choice of TiVo and improves the feature set and renews their contract with TiVo.


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Jimmy,
> 
> Again, you are accepting a lessor product. As I stated before, what's the best way for R15 customers to register their complaints? Return the unit. Call DTV or VE or whoever you got the unit from and tell them "this doesn't work" I want a R10. They will eventually get the message.


Quote from the past:

"Mine are Series 2 Dtivos and you are correct, the HMO option does not exist on those. This type of hack involved pulling the HD out, putting it in a PC and booting up a CD image of a version of Linux (which is what the Tivo's run). You then add telnet, ftp and web capabilities and put the HD back in your Tivo. That gives you the ability to use your browser to go in and control the tivo, change/delete season passes, change/delete Now Showing. Plus there are Windows programs written that will go into your Tivo via the 'net connection, grab all the shows you have recorded and let you pull one or more down to you PC where you can then do what you like.

I use to simply capture the shows but that takes as long as the show is, ie. an hour for an hour show. Just like using the Panasonic you mentioned. With tytools you can copy off an hour show in about 10 minutes, edit out commercials and burn from your PC. With 1/2 hour show like SouthPark you can get 8 or 9 of them on a single DVD."

Well Wolf, sounds like for all that work and hacking, you should have sent that lessor product back.:lol:


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ISWIZ said:


> Just curious Wolffpack, when did you send yours back?


I don't have one. I've got an SD-DVR40, HDVR2 and 2 R10's. I tend to take a "wait and see" attitude towards new technology. I don't like living on the "Bleeding-Edge" and hate playing the part of Ginnie Pig for large corporations that should field tested their products before dumping them on customers.

Why do you ask ISWIZ?


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

mtchamp said:


> The best thing you can do is send the R15 back for the TiVo R10. It's available and the best thing you could do to get DirecTV's attention.
> 
> If the R15 is a total disaster for DirecTV, increases churn, causes customers with a quality TiVo experience to jump to the new Comcast HD TiVo's that will be coming out, then you might see DirecTV renewing it's agreement with TiVo and developing the next generation HD DirecTiVo's.
> 
> ...


Sorry to be harsh but you're delusional if you think that by sending back some R15's you will ever force a multi billion dollar company into resigning a contract they have already stated is all but done. They have their new DVR out, improvements or not it's their future. It may cause some churn in the current DTivo customers but in the end it's not going to make a difference. The new customers who get the box and think all is great will outweigh the ones who complain. The best we can all hope for is that they are listening to all of our complaints and trying to fix this current product.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ISWIZ said:


> Quote from the past:
> 
> "Mine are Series 2 Dtivos and you are correct, the HMO option does not exist on those. This type of hack involved pulling the HD out, putting it in a PC and booting up a CD image of a version of Linux (which is what the Tivo's run). You then add telnet, ftp and web capabilities and put the HD back in your Tivo. That gives you the ability to use your browser to go in and control the tivo, change/delete season passes, change/delete Now Showing. Plus there are Windows programs written that will go into your Tivo via the 'net connection, grab all the shows you have recorded and let you pull one or more down to you PC where you can then do what you like.
> 
> ...


Wow ISWIZ, you've showed your ability to search quite a ways back to pull up one of my posts. Good for you. Hope you feel proud.

Just not sure what ta heck your point is.

That particular post, in response to another forum member that asked for the easiest way to transfer shows from Tivo to their PC, detailed how I, at one time, hooked my video capture card to my DTivo, started the capture and then started playing a show on the DTivo. It then explained I found a better method to transfer shows from my DTivos to my PC given a network connection. So given that, and given the R15 cannot even do what I just explained, why would I have wanted to return my DTivo? It recorded what I told it to record and I found a quicker way to transfer shows to my PC.

I guess I must be missing something here. Can you explain to me why I would have seen the DTvo as a lessor product from the quote you must have searched long for and provided?


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> Sorry to be harsh but you're delusional if you think that by sending back some R15's you will ever force a multi billion dollar company into resigning a contract they have already stated is all but done. They have their new DVR out, improvements or not it's their future. It may cause some churn in the current DTivo customers but in the end it's not going to make a difference. The new customers who get the box and think all is great will outweigh the ones who complain. The best we can all hope for is that they are listening to all of our complaints and trying to fix this current product.


Kanyon, You are correct, while it's a great thought, DTV will not go back to TIVO. However, when all of the yet to be purchased R15s are delivered on December 25th and by January 15th those gift receivers have figured out they simply don't work, DTV will be hurting. I'm guessing all of their software ompa-lumpa's will be working quite hard to get fixes out before the Christmas opening of gifts. If not.....oh boy.

Everyone grab all the R10's you can before they're gone.


----------



## jimmymiko (Nov 19, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Jimmy,
> 
> Again, you are accepting a lessor product. As I stated before, what's the best way for R15 customers to register their complaints? Return the unit. Call DTV or VE or whoever you got the unit from and tell them "this doesn't work" I want a R10. They will eventually get the message.


You have a point but I am going to give D a call and see what they can do for me? I will give it another update before pulling the tirgger. I have been beta testing Microsoft products for years, why not the R15. Honestly if we didn't try the product most likely D might not have found out about some of the bugs. I am sure they knew about some of them but the hard core DVR users will find more then D was even aware of. To think I am selling a series 1 Tivo on Ebay, maybe I should keep it....


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Wolf,

Sorry off to bed as I am also an early riser. Now my point was twofold. First, you are advising people that the something you have not used is a "lessor product". You may well be right but I think those standards lie with the user. To a VCR user, it is a much superior product. To someone who is not happy with "the box" and always looking for a way to improve it by whatever means, it will never be good enough. I hope you will admit that the majority of people using anything they like are NOT posting on these forums. They are simply going on with their quiet lives, happy they got what they have.
Secondly, I'm fairly sure you have an axe to grind with DTV because of them choosing the NDS box over using TIVO. I too love the TIVO software, but for whatever conjecture we all have about WHY that decision has been made, it is happening and as I've said before, where I live DTV is the only provider I would use. I want to see this box work (which it does) and I want to see it improve (the jury is still out) so people running around yelling "the sky is falling" IMHO will not help that. 
While unlike the TIVO forum this one is not censored by the provider of the software, it is more helpful to folks trying to learn how to work with a new gadget to discuss their problems with people who know something about their equipment and use it rather than someone who doesn't have one advising them to send it back.
I'm not cutting edge either but for free I'll give it a whirl. I suspect many others will too. My wishlist was that TIVO was bought by DTV and we both could be happier but that has not happened......... yet.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ISWIZ said:


> Wolf,
> 
> Sorry off to bed as I am also an early riser. Now my point was twofold. First, you are advising people that the something you have not used is a "lessor product". You may well be right but I think those standards lie with the user. To a VCR user, it is a much superior product. To someone who is not happy with "the box" and always looking for a way to improve it by whatever means, it will never be good enough. I hope you will admit that the majority of people using anything they like are NOT posting on these forums. They are simply going on with their quiet lives, happy they got what they have.
> Secondly, I'm fairly sure you have an axe to grind with DTV because of them choosing the NDS box over using TIVO. I too love the TIVO software, but for whatever conjecture we all have about WHY that decision has been made, it is happening and as I've said before, where I live DTV is the only provider I would use. I want to see this box work (which it does) and I want to see it improve (the jury is still out) so people running around yelling "the sky is falling" IMHO will not help that.
> ...


The only advisment I was offering was "if you don't like it, return it". The quickest way to get DTV's attention is with returned units. I haven't made one comment regarding the quality of this unit. I'm just reading the posts here to see how it compares to the current units.

I have no axe to grind with DTV at all. Granted I trust Rupert Murdoch about as much as I trust Bill Gates, but that's another story all together.


----------



## techNoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

DIRECTV is probably shipping thousands of these units each week, so I don't think that getting a few R15s returned will send any message. Besides, I am sure they already know about all the limitations and problems with the R15. Let's hope they get some of them fixed real soon.

For me, the biggest issue is the unexpected restarts. Every time this happens I lose the guide data and it takes a long time to get everything back. An easy way to check for a restart is to set up a favorite list. If the R15 restarts, the favorite list is no longer applied as a guide filter.


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

techNoodle said:


> DIRECTV is probably shipping thousands of these units each week, so I don't think that getting a few R15s returned will send any message. Besides, I am sure they already know about all the limitations and problems with the R15. Let's hope they get some of them fixed real soon.
> 
> For me, the biggest issue is the unexpected restarts. Every time this happens I lose the guide data and it takes a long time to get everything back. An easy way to check for a restart is to set up a favorite list. If the R15 restarts, the favorite list is no longer applied as a guide filter.


Tech,

Other than the initial (opps we forgot to tell you about the update) reboot mine has not rebooted once in 2 weeks. You may want to consider warranty replacement.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> Tech,
> 
> Other than the initial (opps we forgot to tell you about the update) reboot mine has not rebooted once in 2 weeks. You may want to consider warranty replacement.


I actually did something last night I was sure would tick the R15 off. It was recording a show I didn't want it to, there was this show and one other episode in the MyVOD group so I went in, highlighted the episode I didn't want (which was actually playing in a window from the recorded portion) then hit - - I figured it would get mad because the show was recording and I was watching it. What it did was switch me to Live TV, Delete the show and go back to the list, removing the group and showing the other episode as it normally would in the list. I was actually surprised.


----------



## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

ISWIZ said:


> Tech,
> 
> Other than the initial (opps we forgot to tell you about the update) reboot mine has not rebooted once in 2 weeks. You may want to consider warranty replacement.


Just out of curiousity, how many items do you have in your prioritizer, how many of those are auto-recording finds, and how many items are in your to do list?


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

I believe as of this morning I had 19 in the Prioritizer and 57 in the TODO list and almost all of them are series. I don't use AUTO that often except for KEYWORD things (Rolling Stones, Tom Petty)


----------



## nabsltd (Nov 18, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> If you bought a TV that had a picture 25% of the time would you stick it out? If you bought a vacuum that picked up 75% of the dirt in your carpet would to stick it out? If you bought a computer that rebooted in the middle or you working every day or two would you "stick it out"? (Opps, I guess other than something from Microsoft.... :lol


Microsoft's current OS is a marvel of stability compared to the R15. My everyday computer that runs all sorts of different stuff (and takes a lot of abuse) has been running for 23 days, 23:19:52, and the last reboot was for a software upgrade. My main file server has been up for 140 days (NT 4.0, so less frequent new patches).

Of course, I do have Linux boxes that have been running for nearly two years without a reboot.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

nabsltd said:


> Microsoft's current OS is a marvel of stability compared to the R15. My everyday computer that runs all sorts of different stuff (and takes a lot of abuse) has been running for 23 days, 23:19:52, and the last reboot was for a software upgrade. My main file server has been up for 140 days (NT 4.0, so less frequent new patches).
> 
> Of course, I do have Linux boxes that have been running for nearly two years without a reboot.


But nabsltd, what's not comparing apples to apples, which some folks need to do around here. The only thing we can compare an R15 to is the original Tivo.

Kinda like adding a .tcl program someone wrote to a Tivo which pads the beginning and stop times is "hacking" it, but adding an anti-virus program....or any other program to a PC isn't considered hacking.

I guess it depends on if you trying to defend a product that's hard to defend or if you're just trying to compare products that are currently available.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> But nabsltd, what's not comparing apples to apples, which some folks need to do around here. The only thing we can compare an R15 to is the original Tivo.
> 
> Kinda like adding a .tcl program someone wrote to a Tivo which pads the beginning and stop times is "hacking" it, but adding an anti-virus program....or any other program to a PC isn't considered hacking.
> 
> I guess it depends on if you trying to defend a product that's hard to defend or if you're just trying to compare products that are currently available.


Tivo doesn't give you a way to add programs or make those changes from their GUI nor do they document (or condone) doing these things. THAT makes it hacking. MS tells people how to do these things and gives facilities to do so. MAJOR difference.


----------



## jfalkingham (Dec 6, 2005)

Count me in the wolffpack!

I develop software for a living. We compete against a larger competitor whose game plan was to get software out the door first, and let the paying customers demand fixes that they deem important. I'm not naming companies, but one major computer OS maker revolutionized this. The upside is your software is out the door first, you market the heck out of it, and then release 'fix packs' based on your customer feedback.

A better approach is to thoroughly test, and address obvious design flaws, delaying shipment if necessary. All software ships with bugs. It's impossible to ship without a flaw, however your own Quality Assurance/Engineering should have addressed the major issues and a whole bunch of minor ones before going out the door.

That said, TiVo on first release was more stable than the R15 is now. Some of the items folks are posting as happening are COMPLETELY unacceptable. Why do you keep a product that does not do the basic function of recording a series of programs? Obviously, if you are keeping it, waiting for a 'fix' then it can't be that big of a deal to you. 

The DirecTV DVR will mature, and I'm certain it will be a great platform down the road. I think they pushed the platform out the door (after a few delays by the way) when it was still not ready to go to the masses. If you have used TiVo, it's an unacceptable replacement. If you have never used a DVR, then it might be a great tool. Either way, the software company (NDS) has the responsibility of fixing any design flaws that impact the use of the product. Reading posts here, they have some work to do.


----------



## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

jfalkingham said:


> Count me in the wolffpack!
> 
> I develop software for a living. We compete against a larger competitor whose game plan was to get software out the door first, and let the paying customers demand fixes that they deem important. I'm not naming companies, but one major computer OS maker revolutionized this. The upside is your software is out the door first, you market the heck out of it, and then release 'fix packs' based on your customer feedback.
> 
> ...


That's exactly right. As I've said numerous times, the R15 is not ready to be anyone's primary/lone DVR. I like having new tech gadgets, and I'm willing to be a "beta tester" on the R15 since it was free and I already have an R10 DTivo that I use. For me, the R15 is a backup (to use in case of 3 conflicts that my R10 can't record all of), an upgrade to the non-DVR receiver that I had before (it gives me a live buffer, dual tuner recording, etc. - even with the known issues), and a toy to play around with.



jfalkingham said:


> The DirecTV DVR will mature, and I'm certain it will be a great platform down the road. I think they pushed the platform out the door (after a few delays by the way) when it was still not ready to go to the masses. If you have used TiVo, it's an unacceptable replacement. If you have never used a DVR, then it might be a great tool. Either way, the software company (NDS) has the responsibility of fixing any design flaws that impact the use of the product. Reading posts here, they have some work to do.


I actually agree with everything you've said in this post. But I will say this...I personally like the potential features of the R15 and, if fixed, I will prefer it to my R10. To clarify that statement: I watch plenty of live TV (as opposed to those hardcore DVR users who only watch recorded programs) and prefer to use the grid guide. The grid guide on the R15 is approximately 3x as fast as the grid guide on the R10. For my wife and I, that's something we use daily and is therefore a big issue for us. For that reason alone, (if) once the R15 software is updated to fix the major issues that I have with it (missed recordings, recording repeats, missing dual live buffers, unresponsive playback controls (REW, FF, PLAY), having to select a guide filter every time you view the guide, and a few others) I will then swap the R15 with my R10 and use the R15 as my primary receiver. So since I don't currently NEED the R15 to be completely reliable (because I don't rely on it) right now, I'm willing to have it and wait for the updates (and provide my feedback - which hopefully gets to the people at Dtv - about what I'm waiting for while I wait). That's not to condone Dtv's decision or apparent lack of testing, but merely to say that for me it's not that big a deal. It doesn't become a big deal for me until the day that my R10 dies and I'm unable to replace it with a comparable, stable DVR.


----------



## jfalkingham (Dec 6, 2005)

Hey Eric,

I'm with you, I love to test the new unknown. For some reason, I am not touching the R15 for now, actually I am waiting for HD DVR before I replace a TiVo unit. MPEG 4 is beamed to my area this Thursday, so I'll be using the H20 until the HD DVR comes out and you can bet I'll get it asap and do exactly what you are doing  

I too enjoy the grid guide over the TiVo guide. My wife likes the TiVo guide, but I am a grid die hard. Just my preference, yes it is very slow on the R10, but I like it over the TiVo guide. Choice is good!


----------



## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

jfalkingham said:


> I too enjoy the grid guide over the TiVo guide. My wife likes the TiVo guide, but I am a grid die hard. Just my preference, yes it is very slow on the R10, but I like it over the TiVo guide. Choice is good!


Well, if you like using the grid guide, you'll love the R15 and it's HD counterpart when released and stable. The guide is as responsive as it should be - instantaneous. It acts like any non-DVR receiver in it's speed. I consider the guide to be the central part of any receiver, DVR or not. I use it so frequently that I like it to be snappy.

As I was typing this, I started thinking about why the TIVOs might be so much slower. Here's a theory:

One thing I've noticed with the R15 is that if you reboot, it loses the guide data and it can take several hours for it to fully re-populate. This seems to point to the guide data being held in RAM, which would account for it being quicker. I haven't experienced loss of guide data when rebooting my R10, which leads me to believe that the data is stored on the hard drive. My hope is that they can fix the R15 to not lose the guide data upon rebooting (or at least re-populate it in minutes rather than hours) yet still keep the speed of the guide.


----------



## jfalkingham (Dec 6, 2005)

eengert said:


> As I was typing this, I started thinking about why the TIVOs might be so much slower. Here's a theory:
> 
> One thing I've noticed with the R15 is that if you reboot, it loses the guide data and it can take several hours for it to fully re-populate. This seems to point to the guide data being held in RAM, which would account for it being quicker. I haven't experienced loss of guide data when rebooting my R10, which leads me to believe that the data is stored on the hard drive. My hope is that they can fix the R15 to not lose the guide data upon rebooting (or at least re-populate it in minutes rather than hours) yet still keep the speed of the guide.


Interesting... that could very well be true, that it does write to RAM and maybe has a time release where it checks for guide updates, which is sounds like it refreshes the entire grid, not just anything 'new', while the R10 stores it to a tmp cache file that might be updated during nightly housekeeping?

I got used to the grid from the original DirecTV receivers, and always preferred it. You are making me think about getting an R15 to play with it, but I'd get killed. H20 HDTV upgrade this week is enough to ask her to put up with before Christmas!! I am curious about the R15 OS, I assume it is a Linux base, but won't know until I actually have one to play with. I thought they were going with uCentric for their own PVR, which is linux based, but I guess Mr. Murdoch demand to use in house companies


----------



## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

jfalkingham said:


> You are making me think about getting an R15 to play with it, but I'd get killed.


Are you forgetting the the R15 is free until 2-28-06? (assuming you haven't used your $100 DVR rebate yet)


----------



## jfalkingham (Dec 6, 2005)

eengert said:


> Are you forgetting the the R15 is free until 2-28-06? (assuming you haven't used your $100 DVR rebate yet)


ughhhhhh, thanks for making the decision easy for me. On my way to value electronics to get one. I'll put this one in my office and play around with it. I am really interested in what they are using for OS/File management and their DRM.

Now I'll have an R15 and an H20 to play around with this weekend!


----------



## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

jfalkingham said:


> ughhhhhh, thanks for making the decision easy for me. On my way to value electronics to get one. I'll put this one in my office and play around with it. I am really interested in what they are using for OS/File management and their DRM.
> 
> Now I'll have an R15 and an H20 to play around with this weekend!


VE is an excellent choice for your purchase .................ya got an H20 huh?. tell me the secrect to letting the dear lady go for this one


----------



## jfalkingham (Dec 6, 2005)

db54 said:


> VE is an excellent choice for your purchase .................ya got an H20 huh?. tell me the secrect to letting the dear lady go for this one


It's amazing what Desperate Housewives can accomplish, especially since it is one of the programs that ABC will be moving to only high definition coverage in 2006, so the only way she could see it uniterrupted, is if we got HD before the end of the year :lol:

It's only a white lie, and it 'will' eventually happen :nono2:


----------



## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

jfalkingham said:


> It's amazing what Desperate Housewives can accomplish, especially since it is one of the programs that ABC will be moving to only high definition coverage in 2006, so the only way she could see it uniterrupted, is if we got HD before the end of the year :lol:
> 
> It's only a white lie, and it 'will' eventually happen :nono2:


ROFLMAO:rolling: .........i gotta try that one


----------

