# HR24-100 Soft Picture Quality



## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Hello, I had my HR23 replaced a couple of days ago because it broke down and the Directv Tech gave me the HR24. I noticed my picture quality is less detailed (softer) with the HR24 compared to the HR23. I notice it more on peoples faces, like a soft look. I have a 720p 32" lcd tv. I notice it more on 1080i stations, compared to 720p stations. I have my receiver on 1080i, with native off. I tried to switch to 720p, but had the same problem, so i put it back to 1080i. I have B band converters on my HR24. I only have this one receiver, in my apartment. I didn't have this problem with the HR23, every channel including 1080i or 720p, was excellent and lots of details in the picture. I have a Slimline 3 dish. Could it be that the processing is different on the HR24, compared to the HR23? Thanks in advance.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

How is it hooked to the TV? Same cable and connection type as the old receiver?


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Davenlr said:


> How is it hooked to the TV? Same cable and connection type as the old receiver?


With HDMI. Yes, same cable.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Does the light on the front of the receiver match the resolution you have it set at? I.E., is the 1080i light lit?


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Yes, it matches. 1080i is lit.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Well, if you didnt change any settings on the TV, I can only guess you got a bad box. I dont have the 100, I have the HR24-500, but three of my boxes are sharp.

The only other thing I can think of, is it somehow got set to Hide HD duplicates, and you are actually tuning into the SD channel without knowing it. Try it on a HD only channel without a SD counterpart.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

I got my SD channels hidden. The problem is, i don't know if i will get another HR24. It is way faster than my HR23.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I would try using component cables instead of HDMI, and see if that clears up your problem. If it does, then you know the receiver has something wrong with the HDMI.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

I will try that and will let you know. Thanks.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Ok, tried component and same problem. My HDMI is 1.3. Do you think if i buy the HDMI 1.4 might help?


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

No. I think your box has an issue in the video decoder circuitry if both HDMI and component look bad. Hate to say it, but it looks like a soft PQ or risk a swap. You might be able to get DirecTv to credit you the cost of buying one at a retailer, however. Just have to call and explain your problem and see. They did it once for me.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Ok, I will give them a call and see what they say. I really apreciate your help, Thank You.


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## Wire2Wire (Aug 8, 2008)

Chris22 said:


> Hello, I had my HR23 replaced a couple of days ago because it broke down and the Directv Tech gave me the HR24. I noticed my picture quality is less detailed (softer) with the HR24 compared to the HR23. I notice it more on peoples faces, like a soft look. I have a 720p 32" lcd tv. I notice it more on 1080i stations, compared to 720p stations. I have my receiver on 1080i, with native off. I tried to switch to 720p, but had the same problem, so i put it back to 1080i. I have B band converters on my HR24. I only have this one receiver, in my apartment. I didn't have this problem with the HR23, every channel including 1080i or 720p, was excellent and lots of details in the picture. I have a Slimline 3 dish. Could it be that the processing is different on the HR24, compared to the HR23? Thanks in advance.


The 24 series does have different color space output processing (uses RGB color space) vs the previous models which output YCbCr 4:4:4 color space. This may or may not have some effect on the way your set outputs the incoming signal.

Also, if you choose to leave native off, as a general rule of thumb it's recommended to set your receiver to output at your set's native resolution (720p).

I would also try setting the receiver to "native on" to eliminate any deinterlacing or scaling by the receiver to see if that helps your issue.


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## KoRn (Oct 21, 2008)

I would turn native on for sure. Because if you have it set to 1080i and tuned to a station using 720p. More scaling is going on and you will get a more softer picture. Same thing when watching a 1080i station and you have the box set to 720p. Always match signals up for best results. Yes it takes a little longer to tune in. But you will get a better all around picture.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Wire2Wire said:


> The 24 series does have different color space output processing (uses RGB color space) vs the previous models which output YCbCr 4:4:4 color space. This may or may not have some effect on the way your set outputs the incoming signal.
> 
> Also, if you choose to leave native off, as a general rule of thumb it's recommended to set your receiver to output at your set's native resolution (720p).
> 
> I would also try setting the receiver to "native on" to eliminate any deinterlacing or scaling by the receiver to see if that helps your issue.


Could be, it is a cheaper brand lcd made by Haier, since the new HR24 is different than the HR23. I hate the native 'on', but will give it a try. Thanks.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

KoRn said:


> I would turn native on for sure. Because if you have it set to 1080i and tuned to a station using 720p. More scaling is going on and you will get a more softer picture. Same thing when watching a 1080i station and you have the box set to 720p. Always match signals up for best results. Yes it takes a little longer to tune in. But you will get a better all around picture.


Will do. Thanks


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Wire2Wire said:


> The 24 series does have different color space output processing (uses RGB color space) vs the previous models which output YCbCr 4:4:4 color space. This may or may not have some effect on the way your set outputs the incoming signal.
> 
> Also, if you choose to leave native off, as a general rule of thumb it's recommended to set your receiver to output at your set's native resolution (720p).
> 
> I would also try setting the receiver to "native on" to eliminate any deinterlacing or scaling by the receiver to see if that helps your issue.


With all the PQ/HR24 complaints, Im starting to wonder why they did this.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> Hello, I had my HR23 replaced a couple of days ago because it broke down and the Directv Tech gave me the HR24. I noticed my picture quality is less detailed (softer) with the HR24 compared to the HR23. I notice it more on peoples faces, like a soft look. I have a 720p 32" lcd tv. I notice it more on 1080i stations, compared to 720p stations. I have my receiver on 1080i, with native off. I tried to switch to 720p, but had the same problem, so i put it back to 1080i. I have B band converters on my HR24. I only have this one receiver, in my apartment. I didn't have this problem with the HR23, every channel including 1080i or 720p, was excellent and lots of details in the picture. I have a Slimline 3 dish. Could it be that the processing is different on the HR24, compared to the HR23? Thanks in advance.


FWIW, once I properly tweaked my HR24-100's brightness and contrast, which was slightly different than my HR20-700's, I essentially saw no difference in PQ (especially detail) between it and the HR20-700 connected to the same 65" 1080p plasma.

I posted some test shots here.

If you're comparing pictures, so not connected to the same input on the LCD, I would double-check the LCD's "sharpness" setting for the HR24 input vs. the "sharpnes"s setting for the HR23's input. I also had to tweak brightness and contrast slightly differently for the HR24.


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## Manctech (Jul 5, 2010)

Chris22 said:


> I got my SD channels hidden. The problem is, i don't know if i will get another HR24. It is way faster than my HR23.


D* sent out a blast facts. HR24/H24 can ONLY be replaced with HR24/H24. D* cannot promise the mailed receiver is a HR24 however if a tech comes out he can do more.

I had a service call where a HR24 need replacing (bad HDMI). He had to wait about a week but I was able to get one form him and replace it.

(Not all techs will go to these lengths, in fact most will just reschedule) However you can get your case escalated. I know if our Site manager catches wind of a case like this he'll be sure a HR-24 is saved.


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## videojanitor (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> Hello, I had my HR23 replaced a couple of days ago because it broke down and the Directv Tech gave me the HR24. I noticed my picture quality is less detailed (softer) with the HR24 compared to the HR23.


I picked up an HR24 shortly after they were available and had the same experience. The picture just looked more "processed" than the other HRs I have (HR20/21/23). I ended up just putting in a room where critical viewing is not taking place.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Im thinking about moving it to the bedroom and bringing the HR22 back out. Looks like they shoulda stuck with Broadcom.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I wonder if this affects the -100's more than the -500's. I honestly cannot tell any PQ difference between my HR22-100 and my HR24-500, both going to a calibrated Sharp Aquos 46" using 1080p (DVDO upconverts the [native on] HDMI output to 1080p).

I have a H24-100 (not HR), and havent noticed any difference with it either, compared to the H21-200. I am pretty picky about PQ, and "think" I would notice something...

Using the above posters format, below is my HR24-500 followed by HR22-100


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Hmmm...HR24-100 looks beautiful on my setup.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

I gotta wonder if it does not come down to how a certain set handles RGB, compared to another, thats the big inconsistency here.

What I love here, and at AVS, is the mentality from the folks that did not see an issue... "All is well". Granted, some of the people that say that, Id not expect anything else, because we can't rock the boat...


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

elwaylite said:


> I gotta wonder if it does not come down to how a certain set handles RGB, compared to another, thats the big inconsistency here.
> 
> What I love here, and at AVS, is the mentality from the folks that did not see an issue... "All is well". Granted, some of the people that say that, Id not expect anything else, because we can't rock the boat...


Just b/c I don't see it doesn't mean I think others do not. Often it's said to give the poster the acknowledgment that they are not seeing the correct/normal results & further investigation should be taken.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Im wondering if the OP's TV set and the fact the HR24 uses a different colorspace might be the problem? Since I run all my equipment through the DVDO (which switches internally to match colorspace input) and outputs to match my monitors requirements and native resolution, using the same HDMI input for everything... it essentially is eliminating the problem the OP might be seeing, and could be why all my DirecTv boxes look identical on my monitor.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Well, in my readings I found something, and it may be what some of our problems are:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/calibrate-your-system/hdmi-black-levels-xvycc-rgb



> Many of your displays can accept a RGB 0-255 signal. However, if you are using your receiver as an HDMI switcher, there may be a bottleneck. For some reason, many receiver manufacturers have strictly limited their receiver HDMI inputs to a 16-235 range for RGB. This means that if you set your source to output RGB, it will be sending a signal to your receiver that will be truncated before it is sent to the display. If you use this signal to calibrate your black levels, your black levels will be off and it's likely you won't see the Blacker-than-Black pattern from test discs.


I have to wonder if the Denon is the problem now? I do have the DVDO going in this week, so maybe I should wait. Kinda irritated about the whole thing.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

elwaylite said:


> Well, in my readings I found something, and it may be what some of our problems are:
> 
> http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/calibrate-your-system/hdmi-black-levels-xvycc-rgb
> 
> I have to wonder if the Denon is the problem now? I do have the DVDO going in this week, so maybe I should wait. Kinda irritated about the whole thing.


The OP is having an issue with sharpness. The issue the audioholics reviewer is citing above would just affect the ability to see some detail in very deep blacks (the 0-16 range). Traditionally, film makers don't put much detail in that area for the very reason that many standard DVD players don't pass that "blacker than black" information anyway. The only place you usually see detail in that range is on test discs.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Chris22...if you have a digital camera, record the HDNet test pattern, and while playing it (not on pause), see if you can snap a pic of the area of the third test pattern shown in the link several posts back, or my post above, so we can compare your sharpness to ours. Its going to be less sharp, just because its 720p instead of 1080p, but might give us a clue.


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## KoRn (Oct 21, 2008)

I did not know the HR24 uses RGB. Interesting. Are we able to change that in options or any thing?


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

@Davnir- I don't have a digital camera, for now.

@Steve- I tried to raise the sharpness level and it helped a little. 

From reading all the post here, it looks like there is extra processing going on with the HR24, compared to my HR23. Now when i watched the Cowboys-Bengals game last night, the picture was great. So, could it be my cheaper brand Haier 32" 720p lcd is having a problem with the HR24? IDK.


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

I have a 3 week old HR24-100 and its picture is sharp. Also, it is very fast compared to my HR20.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Interesting, since the Cowboy game was sent at 1080i. Check CNN or some other 1080i channels and see if its just the 720p channels that look fuzzy. I can tell a difference between 720p and 1080i broadcasts, esprecially on solid color areas like grass (baseball games) and faces (CNN vs FOX). It still shouldnt be worse on your monitor than your last box. Im also not sure, but I think if you use component, it outputs standard colorspace, so if that was indeed the problem, it should have looked better when you hooked up component cables. Without a comparison pic of box boxes taken from your monitor, only someone actually there is going to be able to tell where the softness lies.

Play with your contrast (higher) and brightness (til pillarbox area is entirely black), and sharpness on small text like ESPN news, and try to tweek. If color is set to high, that could also affect apparent sharpness. 

HOPEFULLY you will find settings that are acceptable.


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## Wire2Wire (Aug 8, 2008)

Davenlr said:


> Im wondering if the OP's TV set and the fact the HR24 uses a different colorspace might be the problem? Since I run all my equipment through the DVDO (which switches internally to match colorspace input) and outputs to match my monitors requirements and native resolution, using the same HDMI input for everything... it essentially is eliminating the problem the OP might be seeing, and could be why all my DirecTv boxes look identical on my monitor.


If you're running FW version 1.5 on your EDGE, please post your input/output color space displayed from the Info screen. Thanks.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Davenlr said:


> Interesting, since the Cowboy game was sent at 1080i. Check CNN or some other 1080i channels and see if its just the 720p channels that look fuzzy. I can tell a difference between 720p and 1080i broadcasts, esprecially on solid color areas like grass (baseball games) and faces (CNN vs FOX). It still shouldnt be worse on your monitor than your last box. Im also not sure, but I think if you use component, it outputs standard colorspace, so if that was indeed the problem, it should have looked better when you hooked up component cables. Without a comparison pic of box boxes taken from your monitor, only someone actually there is going to be able to tell where the softness lies.
> 
> Play with your contrast (higher) and brightness (til pillarbox area is entirely black), and sharpness on small text like ESPN news, and try to tweek. If color is set to high, that could also affect apparent sharpness.
> 
> HOPEFULLY you will find settings that are acceptable.


 I checked CNN and it looks good. I also notice the softness more when watching movies like on Starz and Showtime, etc., Which i didn't have that problem with the HR23. I noticed also that by raising the sharpness, the softness goes away. So, looks like on certain tvs when you use the HR24, you need to 'tweek' your settings on your tv more, compared to the older Directv DVRs. I will keep tweeking and see what i can do.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

I fixed my issue, I moved the HR24 to the bedroom. Now I don't have to deal with the RGB issue and I can record OTA again with my HR22.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

elwaylite said:


> I fixed my issue, I moved the HR24 to the bedroom. Now I don't have to deal with the RGB issue and I can record OTA again with my HR22.


What exactly is the "RGB issue"? Curious what problem you solved by making the switch. TIA.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Did a lot of reading last night, and instead of outputting YCbCr,like other models, the HR24 outputs RGB video. For a large percentage, this is not an issue, but some AVR's can have problems with this. The day the HR24 was installed, I noticed a slightly washed picture, not horrible, but off (ISF calibrated display;all my gear runs thru the Denon, to the TV). 

I can most likely correct it by changing the Denon to RGB enhanced for TV veiwing, and then to YCbCr for blu-ray, but it's a PITA. And, since the Hr24 has an OTA bug, I just demoted it for now.


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## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

elwaylite said:


> Instead of outputting YCbCr,like other models, the HR24 outputs RGB video.


Now you know that's impossible because all DirecTV HD DVR models are identical.

(Sorry, just had to.)


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Hehe, um NOPE.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

elwaylite said:


> Did a lot of reading last night, and instead of outputting YCbCr,like other models, the HR24 outputs RGB video. For a large percentage, this is not an issue, but some AVR's can have problems with this. The day the HR24 was installed, I noticed a slightly washed picture, not horrible, but off (ISF calibrated display;all my gear runs thru the Denon, to the TV).
> 
> I can most likely correct it by changing the Denon to RGB enhanced for TV veiwing, and then to YCbCr for blu-ray, but it's a PITA. And, since the Hr24 has an OTA bug, I just demoted it for now.


If it's the "blacker than black" and "whiter than white" issuse Audioholics referenced in your post above, I'm not sure that would result in a "washed out" picture, since I'm pretty confident no one broadcasts any highlight information above 235. And as far as loss of shadow detail in the 0-16 range, without a test pattern to view, I'm not sure any D* channels broadcast data in that range either. Blu-ray is a different story.

When I AB'd my HR24 (connected to HDMI2) with my HR20 (connected to HDMI1), I just had to tweak brightness and contrast slightly on that input to make the two pictures virtually indistinguishable. I guess since you're using your Denon to switch, you need to find a "one size fits all" brightness/contrast setting for anything connected to the Denon. That's why I don't like using a receiver to switch between video inputs. I'm a PQ fanatic who calibrates his own displays, so I like to be able to tweak each input source differently, if need be.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

I've calibrated mine with my own meter, or had a professional do it with a signal generator so the input is reference also. After that, I don't mess with it. If I ran everything in to the tv, and could adjust inputs, yeah, fine, but with the one I won't adjust reference to suit the DVR, thats tail wagging the dog.

I coulda waited till Wed, when the DVDO goes in, to let it's capabilities work out the problems,and it would be the video hub, but I'm tired of not being able to record OTA too.

When I see those reports change, Ill bring it back out.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Wire2Wire said:


> If you're running FW version 1.5 on your EDGE, please post your input/output color space displayed from the Info screen. Thanks.


DVDO Input
Video Source : HR24 (Auto)
Signal Type : 1080i 60hz
Color Space : RGB (Video, 24-bit)
Sync Type : +H / +V
Aspect Ratio : 16:9 (Auto)
HDCP : Off
PReP : Off
Game Mode : Off
Audio Source : HDMI (Dolby or DTS)

DVDO Input
Video Source : HR22 (Auto)
Color Space : YCbCr444 (BT.709, 24-bit)
Sync Type : +H / +V
Aspect Ratio : 16:9 (Auto)
HDCP : Off
PReP ; Off
Game Mode : Off
Audio Source : HDMI (Dolby or DTS)

DVDO Output
Display Name : Sharp HDMI
Output Format : 1080p 60hz (Auto)
Frame Rate : 59.94hz (Locked)
Color Space : YCbCr444 (BT.709, 24-bit)
Aspect Ratio : 16:9 (Auto)
HDCP : Off (Auto)
Audio Output : Optical


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## Wire2Wire (Aug 8, 2008)

Davenlr said:


> DVDO Input
> Video Source : HR24 (Auto)
> Signal Type : 1080i 60hz
> Color Space : RGB (Video, 24-bit)
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to post this info! I was hoping that the Edge would convert the 24's RGB input into YCbCr output.


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## Robert L (Dec 13, 2005)

Well, I can say I don't see a difference in actual picture quality between a HR24-500 and a HR20-700. I run them both through a video processor, to a front projector. I looked close when I first got the HR24. I also read some of the other threads about some having problems. 

It does appear that maybe the RGB output is making things more complicated for some, because of devices reacting different to RGB. But that is usually just something to do with black levels. Because RGB of course does 0-255 and 16-235. 

I know I have to adjust the HR24 different or it can look too bright on dark scenes, which would look washed out. I know its a different chip set but not sure why they picked RGB on a consumer DVR. I noticed the different colorspace right after I got it. Actually some where asking about in that HBO thread. 

Still, for me on a 110 inch screen, its just as sharp as the HR20, if it wasn't then I'd see it.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

You are also in good shape with a pre/pro. I have one to hook up, but my HD locals on Directv just do not look as good as the OTA versions, so until the HR24 can work reliably on that, I dont want it with the AM21.

I'd like to hear why RGB too, just for curiosity's sake.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Ok, I did all my tweeks and i notice it still has (softening) of the picture. I also paid attention to my colors and they seem washed out, they are not as colorful as before. The picture looks like it has a (haze) on it. So, now i want to call Directv and i need some help guys. What should i tell or explain them what the problem is? I know they are gonna tell me reset the receiver, and so on. So what should i say?


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Wire2Wire said:


> The 24 series does have different color space output processing (uses RGB color space) vs the previous models which output YCbCr 4:4:4 color space. This may or may not have some effect on the way your set outputs the incoming signal...


I can't imagine that this would matter, since all consumer HD content is original 4:2:0 anyway. 4:2:0 reproduced through a chain using 4:4:4 will resolve as 4:2:0, in the same way that 480i content reproduced on a display that is 1920x1080 will still only resolve at 480i. IOW, 4:4:4 in this scenario provides no advantage or anything effectively different than if it were 4:2:0. The chroma information for adjacent lines or adjacent pixels will be unique, but it will be the same information, just like 4:2:0 where it is derived from the same information.

I would be very interested in a source for this info, if you please


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

KoRn said:


> I would turn native on for sure. Because if you have it set to 1080i and tuned to a station using 720p. More scaling is going on and you will get a more softer picture. Same thing when watching a 1080i station and you have the box set to 720p. Always match signals up for best results. Yes it takes a little longer to tune in. But you will get a better all around picture.


I really can't agree, as that is actually not the case.

A 720p signal viewed with the DVR set to 1080i will scale it just once, from 720p to 1080i, followed by a reinterlace to 1080p in your (assumed 1080p) display. That will not be softer than a 720p signal displayed natively through the DVR and natively on a 720p display or up-rezzed to a 1080p display. It will have the identical perceived resolution in each case (holding all other factors equal). The reinterlace also does not make the picture "more softer".

More scaling is absolutely _not _going on, because if you set the DVR to native or to 1080i the single rescale/ single reinterlace still happens. With native on the rescale happens once, in your display. with it set to 1080i it also happens once, in your DVR. And rescalers are pretty transparent and all pretty much act the same, so it will likely not matter which rescale you choose.

Having the box set to 720p and watching 1080i content is a completely different scenario, and it definitely does make a difference and it definitely will make the picture "more softer". In this case, 1080i content is down-rezzed to 720p and also reinterlaced in the DVR, then passed to the display which up-rezzes it to 1080p (already interlaced). But the effective resolution remains at 720p (actually a bit less, because of the interlace artifacts introduced when the signal was in 1080i format).

To avoid the problem just above, I suggest using either native or 1080i. Either will provide identical resolution on a 1080p set and the best posible resolution (though less than 1080p) on a 768p set, and neither will provide an "all around better picture" than the other.

Use 720p only if that is the only way your set is compatible, or if the interlace in the set is not that great compared to interlace through the DVR (applies generally only to older pre-2005 sets). I like native on, but you may find the channel acquisition time a bit quicker with native off.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> Ok, I did all my tweeks and i notice it still has (softening) of the picture. I also paid attention to my colors and they seem washed out, they are not as colorful as before. The picture looks like it has a (haze) on it. So, now i want to call Directv and i need some help guys. What should i tell or explain them what the problem is? I know they are gonna tell me reset the receiver, and so on. So what should i say?


Before you go to calling DirecTv, is there anyone you know with DIrectv and a different brand TV that might be willing to let you plug your HR24 into their system and tv, and see if you have the same problems? Or perhaps you have another TV you could try? If the whole picture looks like it has haze, assuming the box is working correctly, I would suspect the TV brightness gain circuitry, a setting to AUTO BRIGHT depending on ambient light in the room, or an overly bright backlight setting.

Id just kind of like to know for sure its your HR24, and not the TV, or you might get DirecTv to replace one problem with another.

As for what you tell them, just tell them exactly what its doing. Tell them it looks like crap, they will verify, as we did, that your settings are correct, and hopefully, they will send you a new box. Worst case, they might schedule a truck roll, which might not be a bad idea, as then the installer can verify the problem, and probably swap out the box and if the new box isnt any better, you can just refuse the swap, or ask for an older receiver which will work with your TV.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Steve said:


> FWIW, once I properly tweaked my HR24-100's brightness and contrast, which was slightly different than my HR20-700's, I essentially saw no difference in PQ (especially detail) between it and the HR20-700 connected to the same 65" 1080p plasma.
> 
> I posted some test shots here...


 Thanks Steve. There is a very good reason why your pix are identical from unidentical digital DVRs, which is that the DVR has no say in the resolution or the PQ due to the fact that the signal never leaves the digital domain. Either DVR will output the same exact PQ that was input to the system post compression. The pix don't lie, and completely uphold the facts, which are that the resolution is fixed and unmutable while in the digital domain (all the way from encoding at DTV to the HDMI input on your TV, which takes the DVR completely out of the equation).

If the OP is seeing a loss of resolution, something else is at work here other than the DVR (assuming the DVR is decoding an HD signal). Most suspect is the display or display input calibration. Also a candidate is subjective viewing. Slight changes in contrast, gamma, or brightness can be perceived as changes in resolution by the untrained eye.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Tomcat: Just to clarify...If the signal is digital (which it is), are you saying a bad video decoder chip, or bad processor/interlace chip, or whatever they call it, couldnt cause the OP's sharpness to change? 

Reason I am curious, is my DVDO is digital throughout, and I can make all sorts of modifications to the signal before it reaches the monitor. Since the OP is using a 720p monitor, and all the rest of us (I think) are using 1080p monitors, I am wondering if that has anything to do with the problems? Like maybe the pre-HR24 models added sharpness gain when they detected a 720p monitor? Im not up on the broadcomm chip so dont know if they have anything like that built in or not.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Davenlr said:


> Before you go to calling DirecTv, is there anyone you know with DIrectv and a different brand TV that might be willing to let you plug your HR24 into their system and tv, and see if you have the same problems? Or perhaps you have another TV you could try? If the whole picture looks like it has haze, assuming the box is working correctly, I would suspect the TV brightness gain circuitry, a setting to AUTO BRIGHT depending on ambient light in the room, or an overly bright backlight setting.
> 
> Id just kind of like to know for sure its your HR24, and not the TV, or you might get DirecTv to replace one problem with another.
> 
> As for what you tell them, just tell them exactly what its doing. Tell them it looks like crap, they will verify, as we did, that your settings are correct, and hopefully, they will send you a new box. Worst case, they might schedule a truck roll, which might not be a bad idea, as then the installer can verify the problem, and probably swap out the box and if the new box isnt any better, you can just refuse the swap, or ask for an older receiver which will work with your TV.


I don't have another tv, nor i know anyone with Directv. I read your post before i called. The tech support, the tech told me that the HR23 and the HR24 are identical and that the H23 has RGB too, except for the DECA. A case manager will call me tomorrow and they will be sending me a new receiver. I asked for an older receiver and they said they can't guarantee me i will get one. I told them if i get the HR24, than i will have the same problem. So, hopefully when i talk to the case manager tomorrow, i can ask for the old receiver.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Good luck!


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Well, you might have a bad HR24...I really dont know. As for the HR23 using RGB, I cant verify that either, as that is the one model I skipped over, and dont have one to test. Maybe someone else with a DVDO and a HR23 can verify.

In any case, good luck, and let us know what happens.

BTW, if you put your city under your user CP, instead of "midwest" you might find someone locally on here who would volunteer to bring a box over to test. I do that if I see a local having a problem. Aligned several dishes for neighbors.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

> Many of your displays can accept a RGB 0-255 signal. However, if you are using your receiver as an HDMI switcher, there may be a bottleneck. For some reason, many receiver manufacturers have strictly limited their receiver HDMI inputs to a 16-235 range for RGB. This means that if you set your source to output RGB, it will be sending a signal to your receiver that will be truncated before it is sent to the display. If you use this signal to calibrate your black levels, your black levels will be off and it's likely you won't see the Blacker-than-Black pattern from test discs.


I think this theory has the same problem as the 4:4:4 theory, as consumer HD also only uses the quantum levels of 16-235, so should not look different whether the transport protocol uses 0-255 or not. A test disk providing 0-255 will not appear properly if the set is only accepting 16-235, that is obvious. But content that already is limited to 16-235 (all consumer HD) should not suffer from this. The fact that consumer HD is already restricted to 16-235 could explain the author's "for some reason" puzzlement over why set manufacturers would do things this way. It was apparently by design to _match _consumer HD.

I do not see this as a fatal flaw of the HR24. It makes no business, economic, or competive sense to intentionally put out a DVR with a PQ shortcoming previous DVRs do not have, for one thing, and the DVR has been out for months now without anyone even noticing it. This may be as much a tempest in a teapot as the iPhone 4 antenna.

I understand that human nature tends to want to believe what it perceives, but that is not always what is really happening. Human perception is a highly-malleable thing and can play a lot of tricks very easily. It might be important to not get too carried away with what one thinks they are seeing, at least without a matching foil hat.

I once believed I saw David Copperfield "disappear" the statue of liberty. Common sense indicates that it was only perceived that way, and never really happened. But boy, it sure looked that way, and I believed that this was what my eyes were telling me. Obviously, my eyes were wrong.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks Elwaylite and Davenir. Will let you know, what happens.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

If someone with a Denon AVR has an HR23, you can go into input and it'll give you status of the input signal type too.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Davenlr said:


> Tomcat: Just to clarify...If the signal is digital (which it is), are you saying a bad video decoder chip, or bad processor/interlace chip, or whatever they call it, couldnt cause the OP's sharpness to change?
> 
> Reason I am curious, is my DVDO is digital throughout, and I can make all sorts of modifications to the signal before it reaches the monitor. Since the OP is using a 720p monitor, and all the rest of us (I think) are using 1080p monitors, I am wondering if that has anything to do with the problems? Like maybe the pre-HR24 models added sharpness gain when they detected a 720p monitor? Im not up on the broadcomm chip so dont know if they have anything like that built in or not.


I think you are correct, in that a bad decoder chip or associated hdwe in the DVR could indeed degrade things. It would be at the level of binary coefficients being mis-read, however, which while not impossible is highly unlikely. But yes, you could have a "bad HR24". Obviously, all of my assertions earlier are based on a properly-working DVR. Yours may not be.

Just for grins, is there a way for you to bypass your intermediate equipment? That would be a great experiment. While skeptical, I would not entirely rule out some sort of local processing incompatibility, even one that might relate to the colorspace or RGB level differences alleged to the HR24. But to repeat my earlier assertions, that _*should not *_matter. But then that _*doesn't mean it absolutely does not matter*_. As a (hopefully) good troubleshooter, I am merly trying to gauge the likelihood of possibilities (pushing some down in rank at the behest of others), not simply eliminating them out of hand. While the odds are certainly with me, odds can still be beaten.

But it's a great mystery. Try without the intermediate equipment and please report back. Try to post some hi-rez snaps of screen closeups that might show the dif in rez between your HR24 and the previous DVR, if possible. I would love to see what you are seeing.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

TomCat said:


> But it's a great mystery. Try without the intermediate equipment and please report back. Try to post some hi-rez snaps of screen closeups that might show the dif in rez between your HR24 and the previous DVR, if possible. I would love to see what you are seeing.


Im not having a problem. I have bypassed the DVDO initially, and didnt notice any problem either. I was just speculating for the OP.


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## SteveHas (Feb 7, 2007)

could be a bad HR24-500

the pq with my new HR24-500 actually seems slightly better
is that possible?


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## Wire2Wire (Aug 8, 2008)

TomCat said:


> I can't imagine that this would matter, since all consumer HD content is original 4:2:0 anyway. 4:2:0 reproduced through a chain using 4:4:4 will resolve as 4:2:0, in the same way that 480i content reproduced on a display that is 1920x1080 will still only resolve at 480i. IOW, 4:4:4 in this scenario provides no advantage or anything effectively different than if it were 4:2:0. The chroma information for adjacent lines or adjacent pixels will be unique, but it will be the same information, just like 4:2:0 where it is derived from the same information.
> 
> I would be very interested in a source for this info, if you please


My comment was not to suggest or theorize an advantage/disadvantage of 4:4:4, but more to offer that the 24 is outputting a different color space (RGB) than his previous DVR (4:4:4).

Manufacture's have chosen to provide user controlled color space options on some consumer electronic products. Such as Pioneer which has four options 4:2:2; 4:4:4; RGB 16-235; RGB 0-255, and Denon AVR's have color space options for YCbCr; RGB; RGB Normal and RGB Enhanced. Therefore, I can infer that delivery may not be consistent along all consumer product lines and the manufacturer has provided options to compensate for inconsistencies.

The OP's set may not have these options or the internal mechanism may be having issues resolving the incoming RGB signal which may or may not be contributing to his particular issue.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Ok, Directv case manager called me this morning. I explained my issue, she told me that they don't guarantee that i will get an older box or newer. So, I told her i will pass on it, for now. I read Davenir post about that my tv could be having a problem, with the new box. I decided since i have a cheapo 32" 720p lcd, that until i get at least a 1080p tv, i will keep this box. It's easy to blame that the HR24 is the culprit. 

@Wire2Wire- My tv doesn't have any options for the color space. Like you say, my tv is probably having problems resolving the incoming signal.

Maybe the HR24 is exposing my 720p tv, more than the HR23 did. For now, i'm going to let it be and wait till i get a 1080p tv and then judge the picture with the HR24.

I appreciate everyone's help on this and by the way, this is a very nice forum and nice people. Thanks.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> [...] I appreciate everyone's help on this and by the way, this is a very nice forum and nice people. Thanks.


Just our way of saying :welcome_s to DBSTalk!


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Davenlr said:


> Im not having a problem. I have bypassed the DVDO initially, and didnt notice any problem either. I was just speculating for the OP.


Sorry, Dave, I mixed you up with the OP (kinda easy to lose track when you don't have faces to connect to the posters). I'll try to do better next time.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Wire2Wire said:


> My comment was not to suggest or theorize an advantage/disadvantage of 4:4:4, but more to offer that the 24 is outputting a different color space (RGB) than his previous DVR (4:4:4).


I understand, and I would never be one to imply otherwise, but there is an inherent, even if unspoken, advantage to 4:4:4, assuming that the source is 4:4:4 all the way through the chain.

We don't have to even consider theorizing about it, because that inherent advantage is not theoretical, it is known fact. Of course for consumer HD content, that is not the case, as it does not remain 4:4:4 through delivery (if it ever was). And if you think about it, what is the logic in using a 4:4:4 colorspace in a world (source-delivered consumer HD video) that is exclusively 4:2:0? There is none. The only thing that might even begin to make sense regarding that would be if they got a cheaper chip that just happened to, on the side, be 4:4:4.

Ironically, while 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 have inherent advantages over 4:2:0, at lower bit rates (such as those delivered by DBS) 4:2:0 actually performs better. On the other hand, 4:4:4 downstream processing of 4:2:0 content implies neither a better or a worse result, but an identical result. _That _was my point.



Wire2Wire said:


> Manufacture's have chosen to provide user controlled color space options on some consumer electronic products. Such as Pioneer which has four options 4:2:2; 4:4:4; RGB 16-235; RGB 0-255, and Denon AVR's have color space options for YCbCr; RGB; RGB Normal and RGB Enhanced. Therefore, I can infer that delivery may not be consistent along all consumer product lines and the manufacturer has provided options to compensate for inconsistencies.


I think you can infer that consumer HD as delivered through anything but cutting-edge disc technology or cutting-edge HD consumer camera systems has no inconsistencies, as it is all 4:2:0 and all 16-235 or the equivalent. You may also infer that the reason for Denon and other supplying these variable capabilities has much more to do with being futured for new possibilities (not to mention the classic feature count war) than to allow for inconsistencies in delivery protocols (of which there are none). Of course you can actually infer whatever you like, but these are probably much more the reality.



Wire2Wire said:


> The OP's set may not have these options or the internal mechanism may be having issues resolving the incoming RGB signal which may or may not be contributing to his particular issue.


I can't rule that out; but I find it highly doubtful in light of those realities.

Good discussion, though.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Ok, I went ahead and called Directv about my picture quality with the HR24. The softness is bothering me, they gave me case management and set up a tech for this Saturday. Ok, How do i go by and explaining the tech that my picture is softer now? I have to crank up the sharpness all the way to 85 to 90 to get a better image, but if i do that, it's artifacts galore. With my HR23, my sharpness setting was at 55. All I want is a HR23 or a older model. Need some help on this. Thanks.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

You think they would swap it with another model, or is that something you'll even consider?


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## videojanitor (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> Ok, How do i go by and explaining the tech that my picture is softer now? I have to crank up the sharpness all the way to 85 to 90 to get a better image, but if i do that, it's artifacts galore. With my HR23, my sharpness setting was at 55. All I want is a HR23 or a older model. Need some help on this. Thanks.


I kinda doubt you'll be able to explain it to them. Your only hope is just as you said -- you need them to swap it out for an HR23 or older. They'll probably scratch their head over that, but they don't need to understand it.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

elwaylite said:


> You think they would swap it with another model, or is that something you'll even consider?


Yes, As long its not a HR24.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

videojanitor said:


> I kinda doubt you'll be able to explain it to them. Your only hope is just as you said -- you need them to swap it out for an HR23 or older. They'll probably scratch their head over that, but they don't need to understand it.


Can the tech refuse me a swap and say 'it looks fine to me'?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

videojanitor said:


> I kinda doubt you'll be able to explain it to them. Your only hope is just as you said -- you need them to swap it out for an HR23 or older. *They'll probably scratch their head over that, but they don't need to understand it.*


I think once they see the artifacts you're trying to eliminate, it will make sense. Hopefully it's a defective 24 and you won't have to downgrade. You might also see if they have another HDMI cable, just to cover all the bases.

BTW, haven't read back through the thread, but have you tried connecting component, to see if that mitigates the issue you're having?


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> Yes, As long its not a HR24.


Hopefully they can do that for you. I was lucky enough to change it around in household.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Have you tried other picture settings besides Sharpness? Personally, I would keep sharpness near 0 & work the contrast, brightness, & color.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Steve said:


> I think once they see the artifacts you're trying to eliminate, it will make sense. Hopefully it's a defective 24 and you won't have to downgrade. You might also see if they have another HDMI cable, just to cover all the bases.
> 
> BTW, haven't read back through the thread, but have you tried connecting component, to see if that mitigates the issue you're having?


I tried component and had the same problem. I also swapped the HDMI for a new one, same problem.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

sigma1914 said:


> Have you tried other picture settings besides Sharpness? Personally, I would keep sharpness near 0 & work the contrast, brightness, & color.


I tried the contrast, brightness and color too, same problem. If i put the sharpness to even 50 on the HR24 and it's all blurred, out of focus.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Does the HR24 have a new chip in it, compared to the older HD DVR's?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Chris...its starting to sound like your situation might be device-specific...either the HR24 itself somehow or else how the HDTV is handling the video signal.

I'd concur with Steve's earlier observations and comments. Without going down the route of comparisons, which adds little value to your specific environment....it would seem that one of those is somehow contributing to your results. 

The HR24-100 here has crisp and clear images on either a 55" Sony HDTV or 116" DaLite projection screen and corresponding projector. Neither of those required a single video adjustment to render my excellent HR24-100 video presentation results here.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Chris...its starting to sound like your situation might be device-specific...either the HR24 itself somehow or else how the HDTV is handling the video signal.
> 
> I'd concur with Steve's earlier observations and comments. Without going down the route of comparisons, which adds little value to your specific environment....it would seem that one of those is somehow contributing to your results.
> 
> The HR24-100 here has crisp and clear images on either a 55" Sony HDTV or 116" DaLite projection screen and corresponding projector. Neither of those required a single video adjustment to render my excellent HR24-100 video presentation results here.


I bet your right, it's either the HR24 or my tv is having a problem with it. I will let you guys know, what happens on Saturday, Thanks again.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> Does the HR24 have a new chip in it, compared to the older HD DVR's?


We know the CPU is different. I'm not sure about the video output circuitry.

We do know the HR24 outputs RGB instead of ycbcr, but that shouldn't affect sharpness and should result in normally undetectable differences in PQ, based on my experience with two HR24's vs. two HR20's on my Panasonic plasmas.

At any rate, you're not the first person to have issues with HR24 PQ, as you can see by this thread. The posts there indicate there's definitely something odd going on between certain displays and certain HR24's, sometimes only on certain channels. Beats me what the issue is, because only a few folks with HR24's are reporting it, though not in the past couple of weeks, AFAIK. This leads me to believe that DirecTV may have done something in s/w to correct the problem, or perhaps folks have just given up complaining about it? :shrug:


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Steve said:


> We know the CPU is different. I'm not sure about the video output circuitry.
> 
> We do know the HR24 outputs RGB instead of ycbcr, but that shouldn't affect sharpness and should result in normally undetectable differences in PQ, based on my experience with two HR24's vs. two HR20's on my Panasonic plasmas.
> 
> At any rate, you're not the first person to have issues with HR24 PQ, as you can see by this thread. The posts there indicate there's definitely something odd going on between certain displays and certain HR24's, sometimes only on certain channels. Beats me what the issue is, because only a few folks with HR24's are reporting it, though not in the past couple of weeks, AFAIK. This leads me to believe that DirecTV may have done something in s/w to correct the problem, or perhaps folks have just given up complaining about it? :shrug:


Thanks for the extra info. If i have a problem with the tech on Saturday, I will notify him that other people are having this problem also.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> Thanks for the extra info. If i have a problem with the tech on Saturday, I will notify him that other people are having this problem also.


You can, but to be fair, it's possible the problems folks reported in that HBO thread are different than the ones you're seeing when connected to your LCD. E.g, they weren't complaining about sharpness, IIRC, but it's possible that particular issue manifests itself differently when connected to different displays. Also keep in mind the last post in that thread is 3 weeks old, so that issue may have already been resolved.

I guess the best case scenario is you have a bad 24. Hopefully a new one will work just fine. If not, if the HR23 worked OK for you, then any HR20-23 should be a suitable replacement. Just my .02.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Steve said:


> You can, but to be fair, it's possible the problems folks reported in that HBO thread are different than the ones you're seeing when connected to your LCD. E.g, they weren't complaining about sharpness, IIRC, but it's possible that particular issue manifests itself differently when connected to different displays. Also keep in mind the last post in that thread is 3 weeks old, so that issue may have already been resolved.
> 
> I guess the best case scenario is you have a bad 24. Hopefully a new one will work just fine. If not, if the HR23 worked OK for you, then any HR20-23 should be a suitable replacement. Just my .02.


That is true, my problem is different. Hopefully we will get it resolved.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

I fixed it, I put it in the bedroom 

I do have my DVDO iScan Duo pre/pro connected now, so when they get the AM21 issue fixed, Ill bring it back out and let it send Native RGB to the Duo, and the Duo can sort it out and send YCbCr 4:4:4 to the TV.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

The Directv tech came in this morning. I explained my situtation to him. I showed him what the problem is and if he can see it. He said 'No'. He also told me that 'He doesn't watch tv much'. So, I switched to a different channel and a movie was playing, 'Swing Vote' with Kevin Costner on Starz. He noticed it immediately. When I watched that movie on my HR23, it was extremely clear and detailed. He said 'He never seen this before' on the HR24. Anyway, we swapped the receiver for another HR24, same problem. I told him 'Do you have a HR23? He said 'I have to go look'. He comes back with my baby, lol  He brought a refurbished HR23. I said 'It's fine' Plug that baby in. Lo and behold, My picture is back to normal. Turned it back to the movie 'Swing Vote' and we noticed the difference, immediately. Everything is clear, detailed, colors are beautiful (not washed out like the HR24) So, looks like some tvs have a problem with the video from the HR24. I have had Directv for 6 yrs now and am very happy with them. The tech said that 'He learned something new today' Yes the HR23 might be slower, but on my tv, the picture is excellent. One thing i noticed on the HR24 is, I had a lot of shows taped, had about 60% left on the drive and it got a little slower, just a tad, and it froze up a few times when changing channels. He was surprised that Directv Case Management didn't send me a HR23, He said 'They are the ones that can check the warehouse' and 'Send you the one you want.' He has like over 30 HR24's in his van. Well, I'm glad my problem was fixed and I like to thank everybody here for your kind help, I really appreciate it. Thank You!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> The Directv tech came in this morning. I explained my situtation to him. I showed him what the problem is and if he can see it. He said 'No'. He also told me that 'He doesn't watch tv much'. So, I switched to a different channel and a movie was playing, 'Swing Vote' with Kevin Costner on Starz. He noticed it immediately. When I watched that movie on my HR23, it was extremely clear and detailed. He said 'He never seen this before' on the HR24. Anyway, we swapped the receiver for another HR24, same problem. I told him 'Do you have a HR23? He said 'I have to go look'. He comes back with my baby, lol  He brought a refurbished HR23. I said 'It's fine' Plug that baby in. Lo and behold, My picture is back to normal. Turned it back to the movie 'Swing Vote' and we noticed the difference, immediately. Everything is clear, detailed, colors are beautiful (not washed out like the HR24) So, looks like some tvs have a problem with the video from the HR24. I have had Directv for 6 yrs now and am very happy with them. The tech said that 'He learned something new today' Yes the HR23 might be slower, but on my tv, the picture is excellent. One thing i noticed on the HR24 is, I had a lot of shows taped, had about 60% left on the drive and it got a little slower, just a tad, and it froze up a few times when changing channels. He was surprised that Directv Case Management didn't send me a HR23, He said 'They are the ones that can check the warehouse' and 'Send you the one you want.' He has like over 30 HR24's in his van. Well, I'm glad my problem was fixed and I like to thank everybody here for your kind help, I really appreciate it. Thank You!


Great you got a technician that was willing to spend the time to finally resolve your PQ problems.

You'd probably be doing DirecTV a favor by recounting all this as an "issue" in the current national release's "issues" thread for the HR24. If you can, you should provide the exact make and model # of your LCD.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Steve said:


> Great you got a technician that was willing to spend the time to finally resolve your PQ problems.
> 
> You'd probably be doing DirecTV a favor by recounting all this as an "issue" in the current national release's "issues" thread for the HR24. If you can, you should provide the exact make and model # of your LCD.


The tech was awesome. Issue submitted.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Glad you got it resolved. This was a very strange issue. Im really surprised he had a HR23 on his truck. You just got the lucky dog.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Davenlr said:


> Glad you got it resolved. This was a very strange issue. Im really surprised he had a HR23 on his truck. You just got the lucky dog.


Thanks. I was surprised he had one too. I have a question, actually two.

1. How long do Directvs DVR's actually last, on average?

2. This is my first Refurb from them, are the refurbs any good?


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Chris22 said:


> Thanks. I was surprised he had one too. I have a question, actually two.
> 
> 1. How long do Directvs DVR's actually last, on average?
> 
> 2. This is my first Refurb from them, are the refurbs any good?


Ive got my original DVR, and it still works fine. Refurbs vary, depending what the initial problem was. If it was just a return, then it will probably be fine, if it was a return from someone spilling coke all over it, then it depends how good a job they did. Usually, its the hard drive that goes, so in most cases, I suspect they replace the hard drive, and if it boots up, they send it out. I havent heard of many problems with HR23's, so you should be good to go if it works ok now.


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## Chris22 (Aug 8, 2010)

Davenlr said:


> Ive got my original DVR, and it still works fine. Refurbs vary, depending what the initial problem was. If it was just a return, then it will probably be fine, if it was a return from someone spilling coke all over it, then it depends how good a job they did. Usually, its the hard drive that goes, so in most cases, I suspect they replace the hard drive, and if it boots up, they send it out. I havent heard of many problems with HR23's, so you should be good to go if it works ok now.


Hopefully this one will last. Cosmetically, it's like brand new. Thanks Davenlr.


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## Michael H.. (May 31, 2007)

Interesting thread about the HR24 PQ... (spoiler... this is more a rant about QWest)

Was visiting friends in AZ (Chandler, S of Phoenix) last W/E, and while the wife and her girlfriends were clothes shopping, I window electronics-shopped the BB and the mall.
Came upon the QWest atrium kiosk and stopped to look at the multiple Hx24 MRV displays.
HD picture looked like crap. Tuned to some other HD stations, verified that it wasn't displaying the SD duplicates, checked the resolution modes on both the display and receiver and they were 720p or 1080i.
I did not notice the LCD's make or model (they appeared identical), but did look at the connections, and they were HDMI or component.

The QWest rep walked over and asked if I had any questions.
I asked her "What's wrong with the HD picture, it looks terrible?"
She replied (sarcastically) "Just because it's an HD broadcast doesn't mean the programming is in HD."
I replied (with equal sarcasm) "*This* station is basically 24/7 HD... and *this* program is in HD."
I was going to show her the 4 or 5 other HD stations that I had just scanned, but before I could, she said "whatever.." and walked away.

I remember thinking that in 15 years with (Pegasus and) DirecTV, I might have encountered a CSR that had comparable technical knowledge, but never one that was nearly as rude.
I loitered about the kiosk looking at the other items on display, and eventually made my way nearby the rep, who did a re-start with "all of your walking is beating a path in the floor."
I lost it...
I told her "I'm not sure of *your* qualifications, but out of 30 years in launch vehicle and spacecraft engineering, I spent 6 years at Hughes and 7 years at Loral, in charge of direct broadcast satellite payload integration, so *I'm* qualified to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about."
She replied "hey, I'm not going to argue with you about it, so if I can't help you with Qwest, have a nice day."

Put this episode out of my mind... she was obviously having a bad day and I wasn't going to let it affect mine, but I would have liked to have known what was going on with the Hx24's. I've got 2 HR20's and 4 HR21's and was thinking about adding an HR24, but I think I'll wait until this PQ issue gets sorted out before I do...


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Ive got a 720p Polaroid tv, and was going to try plugging in my HR24 to see if its an issue with just native 720p monitors... But to be honest, its a total PIA as all my equipment is in a rack thats difficult to remove. All I can say is it looks identical to my HR22 on my Aquos, but I am converting the RGB to YCrCb prior to sending it to the Aquos, so that in itself might be "fixing" the issue.

As for the Qwest rep, Id have sure complained to her parent company HQ. There are lots of deserving out of work people who need a job. No sense keeping a rude b*tch on the floor.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

I just hooked mine back up in the living room, now that the Pre/Pro is up and running. Colors seem better, but I still think the PQ is softer than my HR22. Covert Affairs recording looked almost OTA and razor sharp on the HR22, to the 58", but not quite as good on the HR24.

I'll keep it in here, because the speed outweighs the PQ issue, I guess.


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## ZTerry (May 24, 2007)

Interesting thread. I have two HR20 DVR's, and I am considering replacing both because the optical out does work on one (and even though I don't have a 5.1 system for that HR20, I would like to use it for copying HD to DVD-R disks using the Haupauge HD PVR, and the HD PVR needs a working optical port to be able to record DD 5.1), and the picture halts when rewinding on the other. Any history/explanations/fixes for these problems?

So am a little concerned goingto the HR24 as the picture I now receive is extraordinary on my 50" 2004 commercial Panasonic plasma. I only have a HDTV for one of the receivers, and I connect the HR20 to the plasma via the component out because I believe it gives a better picture than the HDMI (which I use for the PS3). I thought this was a little odd, but I had a member of the AVS forum say that component can be as good if not better than HDMI, and he sent me an article to back it up. Thoughts?

Also, given that I use component, should I have any concerns regarding the HR24 and it outputs RGB video rather than YCbCr, which I thought was synonymous with component out? Thanks!

P.S. I have been a DirecTV customer for 15 years; do you think they would send me a new receiver free of charge (or for minimal shipping)?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

ZTerry said:


> Interesting thread. I have two HR20 DVR's, and I am considering replacing both because the optical out does work on one (and even though I don't have a 5.1 system for that HR20, I would like to use it for copying HD to DVD-R disks using the Haupauge HD PVR, and the HD PVR needs a working optical port to be able to record DD 5.1), and the picture halts when rewinding on the other. Any history/explanations/fixes for these problems?
> 
> So am a little concerned goingto the HR24 as the picture I now receive is extraordinary on my 50" 2004 commercial Panasonic plasma. I only have a HDTV for one of the receivers, and I connect the HR20 to the plasma via the component out because I believe it gives a better picture than the HDMI (which I use for the PS3). I thought this was a little odd, but I had a member of the AVS forum say that component can be as good if not better than HDMI, and he sent me an article to back it up. Thoughts?
> 
> ...


Whatever the issue the HR24's are having with some plasmas, I have no issues with HR24's connected to both a 2006 and 2009 Panny plasma. Picture is great.

I personally see no difference between component and HDMI. I'm only connected HDMI to my 65S1 because I occasionally watch a 1080p VOD, though I honestly can't say I see the difference between 1080i and 1080p at my normal viewing distance of about 12' (and my vision is 20/20). Just my .02.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> Whatever the issue the HR24's are having with some plasmas, I have no issues with HR24's connected to both a 2006 and 2009 Panny plasma. Picture is great.
> 
> I personally see no difference between component and HDMI. I'm only connected HDMI to my 65S1 because I occasionally watch a 1080p VOD, though I honestly can't say I see the difference between 1080i and 1080p at my normal viewing distance of about 12' (and my vision is 20/20). Just my .02.


Thanks for sharing that Steve.

My experiences with the HR24-100 have been almost identical to yours.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My experiences with the HR24-100 have been almost identical to yours.


Not sure why you're agreeing with me, since I was replying to *ZTerry's* question about the HR24 and his Panny plasma. Your setup shows you don't own one, so "please stay off my lawn", as you've heard from others. 

It's obvious from this thread and other issues that have been posted that some folks are having PQ issues with HR24's and certain brand displays, so I wouldn't have replied if the poster was using a brand I hadn't seen working with a 24 first-hand.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> Not sure why you're agreeing with me, since I was replying to *ZTerry's* question about the HR24 and his Panny plasma.


I have located my HR24-100 on 3 different HD displays, and also have outstanding imagery reproduction with 3 devices, 3 manufacturers.

It seems that the Panny issues are not limited to DirecTV HD DVRs from what I have been reading, mostly around Black levels....but not totally limited to that.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It seems that the Panny issues are not limited to DirecTV HD DVRs from what I have been reading, mostly around Black levels....but not totally limited to that.


The question has absolutely nothing to do with how deep the blacks are on some of last year's Panasonic models, and if you took two minutes to bone up on the issue, you never would have brought it up. Instead you make some vague reference to Panny issues that are in no way device-related and spread unnecessary FUD as a result. Nice job.

To be clear, there _have_ been documented PQ issues between certain displays/channels (especially HBO) and HR24's that may have already been addressed by DirecTV via software fixes. I say that because AFAIK, complaints like those in this thread have dwindled in recent weeks.

Unfortunately, as recently as last Saturday, the issue was still present for the OP, as you can see. He was connected to a Haier display and has reported it in the appropriate issues thread.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> The question has absolutely nothing to do with how deep the blacks are on some of last year's Panasonic models, and if you took two minutes to bone up on the issue, you never would have brought it up. Instead you make some vague reference to Panny issues that are in no way device-related and spread unnecessary FUD as a result. Nice job.


A few folks with Panny's are indicating a problem with their HR24-100's imagery. There may not be either a single or simple source or answer. I simply mentioned that the black level issue was one thing read out there, and that there were a few other posted items on the Pannys out there...nothing more. I happen to own a Haier HD display....so could also relate to the OP....as it is not my everyday unit, but I have tried the HR24-100 and don't see those results either.

Then you start ranting... please get a grip.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A few folks with Panny's are indicating a problem with their HR24-100's imagery [...]


Must have missed those. I'd appreciate links. TIA.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> Must have missed those. I'd appreciate links. TIA.


Not just in this thread, or at this site.

Had no problems re-pulling 4 of them with a simple search of "Panny" here and one other sister site.

Another was a field experience with an associate. His issue was corrected through a combination of HDMI cable upgrade and tweaking his settings to the "vivid" setting. There were also some posts about folks comparing the H20-700 and HR24-500 HD outputs to the same Panny 50" plasma display. I saw one of those in person as well.

I'm a big Panny fan, and have recommended them to 3 people I know who ultimately got them. That said...there have been some HDMI and display settings "issues" that all seemed to be overcome in their own ways. That is neither any kind of slam nor derogatory statement towards using the Panny line with any HR24 HD DVR. Its simply a matter of some folks having initial issues, not unlike the OP here.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A few folks with Panny's are indicating a problem with their HR24-100's imagery [...]





Steve said:


> Must have missed those. I'd appreciate links. TIA.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not just in this thread, or at this site [...]


You continue to imply some folks here have a Panny/H24 issue. I guess I'm using the wrong search terms, then. I found no posts in this thread or this site specifically dealing with Panny/HR24 PQ issues, hence my FUD "rant", as you characterized it.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Another was a field experience with an associate. His issue was corrected through a combination of HDMI cable upgrade and tweaking his settings to the "vivid" setting. .


This is off target, but still a very important issue for those who don't want to ruin their TVs. Why would any of you set any of your displays to the "vivid" setting? :nono2:

You're just adding information to the image that is not there, and at a distance it may appear/seem sharper, but when viewed up close really looks like crap! Vivid settings, also, unless adjusted for the unrealistically high contrast settings associated with them, will ruin your plasma display in a matter of hours. (Don't know if the above was a plasma or not...)


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

NaperDan said:


> This is off target, but still a very important issue for those who don't want to ruin their TVs. Why would any of you set any of your displays to the "vivid" setting? :nono2:
> 
> You're just adding information to the image that is not there, and at a distance it may appear/seem sharper, but when viewed up close really looks like crap! Vivid settings, also, unless adjusted for the unrealistically high contrast settings associated with them, will ruin your plasma display in a matter of hours. (Don't know if the above was a plasma or not...)


Not recommending it....just reporting it worked for someone.

I'll be sure to let them know they should seek another alternative despite being quite pleased with their results.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

I bought my HR24 when they went public, from Overstock.com. At that time, I had a 55" Regza 670u LED LCD, and the image seemed a little washed. I recently bought a 58" S2 Plasma, and was still unhappy with the image. Seeing that my HR24 does not play well with the AM21, I decided to move it to the bedroom, and bring the HR22 back out. On shows I watch often, the HR22 looks better.

A couple of days ago I watched Covert Affairs, and it looked EXCELLENT, and sharp. I then decided to swap receivers real quick and watch it again, on the same TV, with the HR24. Noticeable PQ difference, colors are a little more drab and it was not as sharp. So, thats TWO types of TV's, and I've also added a DVDO unit. I first thought it was RGB deal, but that should not be an issue with the DVDO.

It's either the NXP chip vs the Broadcom, or I have a faulty unit. It's not "bad", it's just "not as good". I'm over it though, I've been pretty much labeled as village nut at the other site because they see no picture quality differences, and their AM21's work fine with the HR24. So... This all comes from someone who owns his own meter, has calibrated a few TV's, and had his TV calibrated by LionAV 4 times.

My HR24 is in the bedroom for MRV recording duties, I bought a TiVo XL for OTA, and the AM21 will get thrown against the side of the house


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

elwaylite said:


> I bought my HR24 when they wen public, from Overstock.com. At that time, I had a 55" Regza 670u LED LCD, and the image seemed a little washed. I recently bought a 58" S2 Plasma, and was still unhappy with the image. Seeing that my HR24 does play well with the AM21, I decided to move it to the bedroom, and bring the HR22 back out. On shows I watch often, the HR22 looks better [...]


I found that the HR20 looked better on my Panny 65S1 than my HR24 when I first hooked it up cold and A/B'd the two boxes in calibrated Cinema mode. I had one on HDMI 1 and the other on HDMI 2. Once I tweaked HDMI 2's brightness, contrast, tint and color settings using the same show frames for comparison, I was no longer able to see any difference in PQ (or in RGB vs. Ycbcr). And when I say "tweaked", I didn't have to change any setting by more than 5%-10%, IIRC.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Well, here's the problem with that. Panasonic settings are set to the mode, so if you use cinema, and change brightness, it changes the brightness across all inputs in Cinema mode. Cinema mode is also the only really good picture mode on these plasmas.

So, if I have the TV properly calibrated in Cinema, I can use Cinema across HDMI inputs. If I change Contrast/Brightness/Color on HDMI2 in Cinema, for the HR24, then Cinema on HDMI1, for the BR player, is now jacked.

You properly calibrate a display with a signal generator, with proper test patterns, and a good meter. Once the input on the TV is properly calibrated, I don't see messing with it for an HDDVR that can't play nice. I've gone from ViP622's, to 722's, to 722k's. HR20's to HR22's, and never had an issue. Also had a TiVo HD in the past, and ALL played nice with a calibrated display, except the HR24. I think it boils down to the fact Directv, for whatever reason, went with NXP, and it's something with their design, or the design of the new boxes. It's not going to be an issue for them, because 99.9% of the folks wont notice, or dont care. Almost everyone I know has their tv's setup in a way that colors are too high and they crush blacks, because they don't know any better. These are probably like a lot of the Directv customers.

I also run all my stuff thru the DVDO, which will soon be calibrated itself, so there won't be any messing with settings.

My HR24 does fine for me now, it's just recording, and I dont have to watch it.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

elwaylite said:


> I bought my HR24 when they went public, from Overstock.com. At that time, I had a 55" Regza 670u LED LCD, and the image seemed a little washed. I recently bought a 58" S2 Plasma, and was still unhappy with the image. Seeing that my HR24 does not play well with the AM21, I decided to move it to the bedroom, and bring the HR22 back out. On shows I watch often, the HR22 looks better.
> 
> *It's either the NXP chip vs the Broadcom, or I have a faulty unit*. It's not "bad", it's just "not as good". I'm over it though,
> I've been pretty much labeled as village nut at the other site because they see no picture quality differences, and their AM21's work fine with the HR24. So... This all comes from someone who owns his own meter, has calibrated a few TV's, and had his TV calibrated by LionAV 4 times.


That one highlighted statement caught my eye. I've been particularly following how the HR24-500 and HR24-100 units have compared in results.

[Nice HDTV by the way...my brother has the 50" earlier model version and loves his too].

Unfortunately...in the issues threads....sometimes, folks post just "HR24", and not the specific model (-100, -200, or -500)...so its tough to tell if there are any definitive differences. All three units are fundamentally the same as stated by the First Look peices. My conclusions to date are only anecdotal or first/second hand observations, so they are no where near not enough in substance or facts to substantiate anything definitive as far as differences.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

It's a real nice TV. This is my 3rd, and I went to the darkside for a little bit with the LED, and just wasn't happy. Panasonic plasmas still do fault from not having a dedicated CMS for really dialing in colors, and the gamma is a little low, but that's were the calibration features in the DVDO come in.

I've wondered if the other HR24 models are also outputting RGB 4:4:4, but I've not seen anyone say. I know the 500 is. I'm more irritated at myself, because I went for the speed. I ran into a little PQ issue, and a box that could not record off my AM21 reliably, so it left a foul taste.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

elwaylite said:


> Well, here's the problem with that. Panasonic settings are set to the mode, so if you use cinema, and change brightness, it changes the brightness across all inputs in Cinema mode. Cinema mode is also the only really good picture mode on these plasmas. [...]


I don't know about the S2, but with my S1, I think Cinema is only the best mode "on paper", because of the supposed benefits of the 600Hz Sub-field Drive, only active in that mode. In my own testing, I frankly don't see what difference 600mhz makes when I calibrated Custom mode to look like Cinema. The gammas of the two modes are close enough that you can do that, at least on the S1, if you want different settings for different devices.



> So, if I have the TV properly calibrated in Cinema, I can use Cinema across HDMI inputs. If I change Contrast/Brightness/Color on HDMI2 in Cinema, for the HR24, then Cinema on HDMI1, for the BR player, is now jacked [...]


My LG BD390, also connected HDMI, has lots of default CMS output settings I can tweak (more than the S1's service menu, BTW!), but it and the HR24 seem to play so well together on Cinema, I haven't found the need to use anything but the defaults. Just my experience.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

Interesting to note that true HD, since it is DIGITAL, should show no degradation from the incoming, or source, if you will, to the outgoing signal to the viewing media. For example: I watch OTA shows using my TV's antenna a lot. When I watch my HR20-700 using the OTA antenna there is no visible difference in quality. I have a Sony 60 inch SXRD. If the HR24-??? is outputting a faulty signal, one which on a previous unit [or in a side-by-side comparison] was sharp and unpixelated (not soft), it's reasonable to assume that the new unit itself is indeed faulty.

Don't give up on getting D* to solve this problem. It may prove to be a bad batch of units from a given manufacturer, which is determined by the -???. I suggest telling D* that your HDMI is OTS and to get another new one out, making sure that it is not from the same manufacturer. Emails also do a lot more to get things done than phone calls.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

I started to go that route, but it works fine for what I'm using it as. I'd soon not mess with it. It's in the bedroom recording strictly satellite channel programming every night, plus it allows us to watch tv or MRV in the bedroom (when I work 3-11 my wife does this a lot).

In the living room, I have the HR22 strictly as a way to view MRV off the 24, or watch TV. It's not on an AM21 now, and has no scheduled recordings, which keeps it's speed pretty good. The TiVo HD is OTA only and will handle all of my local channel recordings in the Fall and Spring.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

elwaylite said:


> I started to go that route, but it works fine for what I'm using it as. I'd soon not mess with it. It's in the bedroom recording strictly satellite channel programming every night, plus it allows us to watch tv or MRV in the bedroom (when I work 3-11 my wife does this a lot).
> 
> In the living room, I have the HR22 strictly as a way to view MRV off the 24, or watch TV. It's not on an AM21 now, and has no scheduled recordings, which keeps it's speed pretty good. The TiVo HD is OTA only and will handle all of my local channel recordings in the Fall and Spring.


3-11?! Are you an ATCr?


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Huh?


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## ZTerry (May 24, 2007)

elwaylite said:


> I bought my HR24 when they went public, from Overstock.com. At that time, I had a 55" Regza 670u LED LCD, and the image seemed a little washed. I recently bought a 58" S2 Plasma, and was still unhappy with the image. Seeing that my HR24 does not play well with the AM21, I decided to move it to the bedroom, and bring the HR22 back out. On shows I watch often, the HR22 looks better.
> 
> A couple of days ago I watched Covert Affairs, and it looked EXCELLENT, and sharp. I then decided to swap receivers real quick and watch it again, on the same TV, with the HR24. Noticeable PQ difference, colors are a little more drab and it was not as sharp. So, thats TWO types of TV's, and I've also added a DVDO unit. I first thought it was RGB deal, but that should not be an issue with the DVDO.
> 
> ...


That reminds me....another concern in getting the HR24 is that I need an OTA tuner (receive DirecTV locals from one city and OTA from antoher), so would need to get the AR21. This is one of the reasons I paid $600 out of my pocket for the HR20s, to ensure that I did not receive an HR21, which does not havd an OTA tuner. So I suppose there is no way to get another HR20? That would be ideal! If not, then what receiver should I request to attain the same PQ as the HR20, including OTA quality with the AM21? Thanks.

Oh, just saw your note on TiVo XL for OTA. So there is an alternative to using the AM21 - any suggustions/vendors/soruces of info? Thanks.

P.S. HBO picture quality with the HR20 is among the best, if not the best, of any channel.


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## randys1 (Oct 31, 2010)

Has this problem been figured out anyway for a KURO?

I just hooked my hr24500 to my kuro and the picture is crap...help!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

randys1 said:


> Has this problem been figured out anyway for a KURO?
> 
> I just hooked my hr24500 to my kuro and the picture is crap...help!


Dragged up an old thread for the wrong model, "but" adjust your TV.
As they said over on AVS the -500 outputs RGB.
My Sony XBR has no problem recognizing the signal and displaying it correctly.
You need to adjust your kuro, if it isn't doing this.


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## randys1 (Oct 31, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> Dragged up an old thread for the wrong model, "but" adjust your TV.
> As they said over on AVS the -500 outputs RGB.
> My Sony XBR has no problem recognizing the signal and displaying it correctly.
> You need to adjust your kuro, if it isn't doing this.


wait, i found it, thanks, seems to help....


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

randys1 said:


> and i havent seen a single place here that tells me what that is...i am paying my guy to come out and try to do it, but if it was that simple i could do it...





randys1 said:


> wait, i found it, thanks, seems to help....


Guess you've sorted it out.


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## randys1 (Oct 31, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> Guess you've sorted it out.


i assume i did, i changed manually to rgb 235, which messes up anything else like blu ray wii or ps3, but i can manually change it back, thanks


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

randys1 said:


> i assume i did, i changed manually to rgb 235, which messes up anything else like blu ray wii or ps3, but i can manually change it back, thanks


Are these all using the same input, or different ones?
With my Sony, these settings are for each input, so they can be different.


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## randys1 (Oct 31, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> Are these all using the same input, or different ones?
> With my Sony, these settings are for each input, so they can be different.


exactly, yes they are all on same so i could have them on different ones

would that require a new hdmi wire for each device?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

randys1 said:


> exactly, yes they are all on same so i could have them on different ones
> 
> would that require a new hdmi wire for each device?


Yes, each of my receivers has a HDMI to each input of my Sony.
Sounds like you could just get one more HDMI for the HR24-500, so it has its own input.


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