# L213 OTA Guide Data Bugs Thread



## Mark Lamutt

Please post any problems you see with OTA digital guide data in this thread. Stations that you don't have any guide data for, stations that are listing incorrect guide data, etc.

Once again, please be as specific as possible.


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## deweybrunner

Mark, I assume my guide data will come later. now I have none. Tampa, Fl. has local's thru Dish. Just excited and patient.


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## Mark Lamutt

If you don't have more than an hour of guide data or so, you'll have it tomorrow morning. That's what happened to me last night when I took this download. This morning, my guide was full.


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## rjenkins

For me, the OTA guide data is the same for all the sub-channels, no matter what. (Salt Lake City locals) In other words, 004-01 and 004-02 have the same data. And 011-01, 011-02, 011-03, 011-04, 011-05 all have the same data, etc... Not a big deal, much better than no guide data at all.


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## onethree

This is a really minor thing. Everything so far about 211 has been great. If you are using the Browser (the channel info at the bottom of the screen) and select info for program information is only says "local programing" on all OTA Digital channels in Oklahoma City. If you select browser on any other channel including Dish Brodcast Locals the show information will be displayed on the screen.

Boot: 140B
Flash: F052
SW: L211HECD-N


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## KKlare

On the 811, the Albuquerque PBS (8816) shows the digital 35 only for 5.2, which mirrors the analog 5.0. The 5.1 has the more interesting high def.

You can get the high-def program guide from
<http://www.pbs.org/tvschedules/tvschedules_hd.html>
a day at a time and up to a week in advance.

Every receiver gets diferent code. Their nightmare and ours.

My 211 came up correctly overnight with the PIP position check showing a reboot.


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## xsailor

My Dish local channels is San Diego but I cannot receive OTA from San Diego but can and do receive OTA from Los Angeles. MY guide does not show info for those Los Angeles stations. How can I get the guide info?


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## Mark Lamutt

I don't think that you're going to be able to at the moment, xsailor, but I'll check.


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## Samich

I'm getting no guide data on any of my OTA locals, digital or analog. I deleted all stations, power cord re-booted, rescanned for all stations (that all worked very quickly). It occurs to me I must pay the $6 for Dish locals to get guide data on my OTA stations? :barf: I live in Littleton (Denver area) so I would expect to get the same data as Mark.


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## jsanders

KKlare said:


> On the 811, the Albuquerque PBS (8816) shows the digital 35 only for 5.2, which mirrors the analog 5.0. The 5.1 has the more interesting high def.
> 
> You can get the high-def program guide from
> <http://www.pbs.org/tvschedules/tvschedules_hd.html>
> a day at a time and up to a week in advance.
> 
> Every receiver gets diferent code. Their nightmare and ours.
> 
> My 211 came up correctly overnight with the PIP position check showing a reboot.


I need a little help understanding you comment, which I suspect is information I've been wanting to find out.

Are you saying that the 811 gets the OTA guide data for your PBS sub-channels without error, but your 921 (with L211) doesn't?


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## bbomar

Program information is correctly and completely displayed above the
channel guide for both satellite and OTA local channels. However, 
pressing the INFO button only gives information when on a satellite local.
For OTA locals the INFO button gives "information not available".


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## indyras

bbomar said:


> Program information is correctly and completely displayed above the
> channel guide for both satellite and OTA local channels. However,
> pressing the INFO button only gives information when on a satellite local.
> For OTA locals the INFO button gives "information not available".


My 921 is also behaving exactly this way for all of my digital OTA channels in Indianapolis, Indiana.


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## paulcdavis

xsailor said:


> My Dish local channels is San Diego but I cannot receive OTA from San Diego but can and do receive OTA from Los Angeles. MY guide does not show info for those Los Angeles stations. How can I get the guide info?


I have the same problem in the San Francisco Bay area. My Dish locals are San Francisco but I cannot receive OTA from San Francisco. I'm able to receive OTA from Sacramento with 100+ signal strength on most channels but the guide says "no information available".


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## Larry

deweybrunner said:


> Mark, I assume my guide data will come later. now I have none. Tampa, Fl. has local's thru Dish. Just excited and patient.


I have Tampa info in my guide. I came home from work and it was all there. I blew away the OTA locals, rebooted again, and re-scanned...when all was done the info was there again. I hope your info is there by now. 

That being said, after blowing away my timers and re-entering them thru the guide (WOW, this is great!)...I noticed the red dot is missing from OTA locals in the guide. It's only a minor inconvenience, but I hope it will be fixed in the future.


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## deweybrunner

Larry, I have re-booted three times, and still no ota guide info. I saw someone said that you have to subscribe to ota channels with dish for 6.00 a month. Is this a pre-requisite? Do you subscribe to locals with Dish?


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## jsanders

paulcdavis said:


> I have the same problem in the San Francisco Bay area. My Dish locals are San Francisco but I cannot receive OTA from San Francisco. I'm able to receive OTA from Sacramento with 100+ signal strength on most channels but the guide says "no information available".


Yea, this really appears to be a hack, not doing what the 811 does. It appears it is only remapping the analog at this point (ie., data coming from the spot beam, your info is not available because you don't get the sacramento spot beam). It should use the call letters of your station to find the guide info in the database that the 811 downloads from the satellite. This really seems like bad news to me. If you put in a hack at the beginning, it is hard to replace it and do it right later. Maybe they have been working on this since before OTA guide data was available. But if it took them this long to release it...................

I just hope I am utterly, completely wrong about what I am guessing happened.


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## jsanders

deweybrunner said:


> Larry, I have re-booted three times, and still no ota guide info. I saw someone said that you have to subscribe to ota channels with dish for 6.00 a month. Is this a pre-requisite? Do you subscribe to locals with Dish?


That better no be true, I just cancelled my locals today! I wanted to save $6.00/mo.


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## xsailor

xsailor said:


> My Dish local channels is San Diego but I cannot receive OTA from San Diego but can and do receive OTA from Los Angeles. MY guide does not show info for those Los Angeles stations. How can I get the guide info?





Mark Lamutt said:


> I don't think that you're going to be able to at the moment, xsailor, but I'll check.


I thought I fixed the problem. I called Dish and because I'm "grandfathered", I was able to change my locals from San Diego to Los Angeles. The locals (channel 8000s) now show Los Angeles stations and my OTA is Los Angeles, but no mapping on the OTA channels! I tried removing all OTA's and rescanning, then I tried rebooting. Still no OTA channel info. What's up?


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## pwrtrader

xsailor said:


> I thought I fixed the problem. I called Dish and because I'm "grandfathered", I was able to change my locals from San Diego to Los Angeles. The locals (channel 8000s) now show Los Angeles stations and my OTA is Los Angeles, but no mapping on the OTA channels! I tried removing all OTA's and rescanning, then I tried rebooting. Still no OTA channel info. What's up?


I'm in the Los Angeles area and still no Guide info. May have to wait until tomorrow. I don't have locals thru Dish.

-eric


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## ats

jsanders said:


> That better no be true, I just cancelled my locals today! I wanted to save $6.00/mo.


According to my info, Dish Network only has to offer the local channels in your area, you do not have to subscribe. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


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## paulcdavis

jsanders said:


> Yea, this really appears to be a hack, not doing what the 811 does. It appears it is only remapping the analog at this point (ie., data coming from the spot beam, your info is not available because you don't get the sacramento spot beam). It should use the call letters of your station to find the guide info in the database that the 811 downloads from the satellite. This really seems like bad news to me. If you put in a hack at the beginning, it is hard to replace it and do it right later. Maybe they have been working on this since before OTA guide data was available. But if it took them this long to release it...................
> 
> I just hope I am utterly, completely wrong about what I am guessing happened.


I doubt it is a spot beam problem since I would guess that San Francisco and Sacramento are on the same spot beam. It's more likely that the hack is only able to display guide data for the "legal" DMA stations that I qualify for from Dish. I am not in the Sacramento DMA, and do not qualify for them LIL from Dish, so even though they are the only OTA stations I can receive I will not have guide data. I hope my manual OTA timers still work!


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## Larry

deweybrunner said:


> Larry, I have re-booted three times, and still no ota guide info. I saw someone said that you have to subscribe to ota channels with dish for 6.00 a month. Is this a pre-requisite? Do you subscribe to locals with Dish?


I don't know about it being a pre-requisite...but yes, I do subscribe to the Tampa locals. Hopefully a subscription to the locals won't be required in order to get what should be a basic function.


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## Bogney

I get the New York City locals OTA. I do not subscribe to locals from Dish. I do pay for CBS-HD only from the satellite.

My local guide data only works for the CBS OTA station. ABC, NBC, Fox, and all the rest do not have guide data.

So far it seems like you get guide data for only the locals that you subscribe to from Dish.


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## mraub

No local guide data at all available in Champaign, IL. Locals are available for this market from DISH, though I don't subscribe.

MIKE


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## tnsprin

rjenkins said:


> For me, the OTA guide data is the same for all the sub-channels, no matter what. (Salt Lake City locals) In other words, 004-01 and 004-02 have the same data. And 011-01, 011-02, 011-03, 011-04, 011-05 all have the same data, etc... Not a big deal, much better than no guide data at all.


Definitely room for improvement. Same in NYC. With FOX and UPN broadcast as subchannels (when will the local switch back to seperate channels?) this is somwhat annoying problem here.


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## rrg

Like Bogney, I'm in the NYC area, I don't subscribe to locals from Dish, I pay extra for CBS-HD from Dish, and I receive the NYC-area OTA digitals.

I have no guide information for any local channels, remapped or otherwise. With "All Chan" displayed in the guide, there are no channels in the 7000s and 8000s. The guide data for all OTA digitals still reads "No Information Available."

I've unchecked "Enable Off-Air Locals" in Preferences as described elsewhere, though it's only been a couple of hours since I did it.

Do I have to do anything else in order to enable this guide data?


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## rrg

tnsprin said:


> Same in NYC. With FOX and UPN broadcast as subchannels (when will the local switch back to separate channels?) this is somewhat annoying problem here.


It sounds like the Empire State Building antenna recombiner project is about to go live, according to this post.

Though the article doesn't specifically say this, I'm hoping that it means that WWOR-DT will begin carrying UPN's HD content, so that it will (for example) no longer be necessary to turn my antenna toward Philadelphia for "Enterprise".


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## David K

Ok, I live in Ohio, Dish gives me my Cincinnati locals but I pull OTA from Dayton. I have no program guide data for my OTA locals, it says "no info available". Did I do something wrong?


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## David K

I live in Ohio, Dish gives me my Cincinnati locals, I pull my OTA locals out of Dayton, I have no guide data for my OTA locals. Bummer.


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## WildBill

mraub said:


> No local guide data at all available in Champaign, IL. Locals are available for this market from DISH, though I don't subscribe.
> 
> MIKE


I've got the same situation in Springfield. I'm hoping that the overnight guide update will fix it, but it is beginning to look like only local subscribers are getting the guide data so far.

Any non-subscribers to locals getting OTA guide info out there?


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## mwgiii

Birmingham, AL

No guide data WPHX (PAX) ch 44 digital 45. http://www.paxtv.com/stations/default.cfm?sti_id=134&siteid=50616

It is a PAX owned channel, can Dish remap the guide from PAX ch 181?

Also, WBIQ (PBS) is broadcasting the national PBS HD feed on 10-1 digital 53. Guide is showing local PBS which is on 10-2.

http://www.aptv.org/Digital/index.asp


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## Frank Z

Larry said:


> I...I noticed the red dot is missing from OTA locals in the guide. It's only a minor inconvenience, but I hope it will be fixed in the future.


Same thing here. No dot, but that's not a big deal for me at this point.


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## Mark Lamutt

I hope to have the definitive answer to the question of whether you currently have to subscribe to local channels to get the guide data remapped tomorrow morning. I sent the question off this afternoon, but it well after quitting time at Eldon.


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## jsanders

I had guide data this morning, but I don't have it anymore! 

When I went to work today, I finally cancelled my locals because I was only using them for the guide data!

What gives???? This is very unsettling. I will wait till tomorrow morning to see if the problem is remedied. Nothing else I can think of doing.

What does this menu in the preferences, "Off-Air Antenna Locals" mean btw? I thought someone said that if the box was checked, it would remap the locals to the OTA, but if it wasn't checked, it would use some digital OTA guide data. Can anyone clarify??


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## deweybrunner

Mark, no guide for Tampa Bay area this morning. Do not subscribe to locals. Other Tampa Area owner, according to thread, have received ota information? Called Tech. They had no info. Did tell me I did not have to subscribe to get local info.


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## cclement

bbomar said:


> Program information is correctly and completely displayed above the
> channel guide for both satellite and OTA local channels. However,
> pressing the INFO button only gives information when on a satellite local.
> For OTA locals the INFO button gives "information not available".


Same here in Minneapolis/St. Paul. Do I need to continue to wait, is this normal, or is another reboot needed?

PS- Thank you to Mark and all the other testers. Great job!


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## mwsmith2

I don't subscribe to locals and I don't have any guide data. Mine loaded L211 just about as soon as it could. I checked this morning and still nothing.

This doesn't look good. 

Michael


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## JOBY

I did the power cord reboot, deleted OTA and rescanned sucessfully. Now the OTA channels show up in the guide but no guide info is available on any of them. The stations are mostly Austin TX channels and KABB 29 from San Antonio. I know there is Local to local channels in Austin. Did I fail to set something up?

Joby in Fredericksburg


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## pwrtrader

pwrtrader said:


> I'm in the Los Angeles area and still no Guide info. May have to wait until tomorrow. I don't have locals thru Dish.
> 
> -eric


Tried again this morning and still no data. I now have a sad smiley on my face. 

Hope this gets cleared up soon.

-eric


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## JimTsillas

Here in the Boston area I see the same set of OTA digitals as before (after removing and rescanning all the OTA) with the following exceptions:

2 bogus channels which would lock up the receiver and gone - but, two remain that still have this problem and I needed to manually remove them: one is a PBS channel which maps to 2-101. Tuning to this channel will lock me up.

I did a scan for OTA digitial (not analog) and got 4 analog channels as well: channels 2, 5, 7 and 56. Interestingly the receiver figured out the right call-signs for these channels without me entering any information. I don't know how it did this. These channels showed up in an orange-brown color in the guilde. Do analog channels have PSIP?? 

After 12 hours of operation I still don't have guide data for the OTA. Guide seems to work OK otherwise. Note that my guide data seems to have survived the upgrade since it was all there after the reboot. Is there a way to force it to flush the guide data so it can redownload?


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## gboot

Confirming what others have said, I do not subscribe to Dish locals and I'm not getting any OTA guide.


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## bbriggs

No OTA guide data and no LIL subscription, Des Moines.


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## Bradtothebone

Same here in Kansas City. The guide shows "No Information" for all OTA digital locals. Interestingly enough, when on a local digital, the browse banner shows "Mon 12/31 7:00pm, Local Programming, Length: 1:00" no matter what day or time it currently is. What's up with that? BTW, I'm not subbed to Dish locals, either.

Brad


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## David K

OK here is the scoop. Once again I live in between Cinci and Dayton, because of my zip code I get Cinci locals from Dish, however I live closer to Dayton and Daytons towers so I pull my OTA out of Dayton. Dish does give me one Dayton local, ABC, and low and behold I have guide data for my OTA ABC. So if you're pulling you're OTA from a different city than that of Dish's locals you will not have guide data. So I figured if I'm getting one of Daytons locals through Dish, why can't I get the rest? This would fix the guide data problem. So I call Dish last night and talked to the guy and he tells me if I get a waiver from the dayton local stations, they will give me the Dayton locals. Then I'm told today from Dish even if I get the waivers the FCC will not allow them to give me the Dayton locals because of my zip. So I'm afraid I'm S.O.L.

Is there any hope that future software releases will fix this? Or can I assume I will never have guide data for my Dayton OTA with Cinci Dish locals. I can record CBS HD OTA now a huge plus, and everything else seems to be working properly.


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## mraub

If anyone scanning this thread has guide data, but doesn't subscribe to their locals package, please chime in so we know that's possible to do. Of course, probably the only people checking this thread are people who have no guide data.
A guy at the office has a 510 and the locals via Dish and I'll see if he get locals guide data.

MIKE


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## Mark Lamutt

Everyone, please relax here for a moment, sit back and take a deep breath. I'm working on getting the answers to all of your questions, so please take it easy for a little while here. I'm sure that Dish never considered that some would be pulling digital OTAs from other DMAs. And I don't know yet if it was intentional that you have to be subbed to locals to get the guide data. You'll know just as soon as I do.


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## xsailor

xsailor said:


> I thought I fixed the problem. I called Dish and because I'm "grandfathered", I was able to change my locals from San Diego to Los Angeles. The locals (channel 8000s) now show Los Angeles stations and my OTA is Los Angeles, but no mapping on the OTA channels! I tried removing all OTA's and rescanning, then I tried rebooting. Still no OTA channel info. What's up?


OK Mark, after taking a deep breath ... I guess since I really don't have Los Angeles locals but now have "West Coast Feed" channels (i.e. ABC-W, CBS-W etc.) that the 921 does NOT recognize the info on the 8000's channels and remaps to my OTA. In other words still no OTA channel info.


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## DonLandis

Thanks, Mark.

Just for the record- I do not sub to LIL and only have "Local Programming" in the header. I have "No Information Available" in the guide.

And just for the record, if I am required to pay for guide program data, I won't. DirecTV and TIVO supplies it as a no charge feature so I won't pay for it with Dish. Sorry, but just wanted to go on record with that. 

Standing by for your info, Mark. Everybody loves your efforts here!


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## Mark Lamutt

Well, I just go it... 

Officially from Dish - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.

As for pulling guide data from other DMAs, that one I'm still working on.


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## xsailor

xsailor said:


> OK Mark, after taking a deep breath ... I guess since I really don't have Los Angeles locals but now have "West Coast Feed" channels (i.e. ABC-W, CBS-W etc.) that the 921 does NOT recognize the info on the 8000's channels and remaps to my OTA. In other words still no OTA channel info.


As a side note ... I do get ONE San Diego OTA channel. Last nite when I did subscibe to Locals, I did receive OTA data info. When I dropped San Diego locals for Los Angeles "locals", the guide data ended for the one San Diego station. This pretty much confirms that you have to be subscribed to your locals to get OTA data.


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## deweybrunner

I just talked to a "super Tech" at dish about the problem of no ota guide info. She told me this was "definitely" a software problem, that they were working on as we speak. I went thru what Mark had said and the numbers of irate 921 owners out there now, including myself. She said, "please believe me, it is "a software" problem and it is going to be fixed". I asked her how soon, a week, a month or what. She said it could take a month. I told her if it takes that long, just subscribe me to the Tampa locals at $5.00 month. She said I could drop as soon as the new software was released.


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## DonLandis

_"I told her if it takes that long, just subscribe me to the Tampa locals at $5.00 month. She said I could drop as soon as the new software was released."_

You are supporting their marketing strategy, you know.

If enough people succumb to subscribing to locals that they don't need to get that guide data for $5 a month, then don't be surprised when they charge you another $5/mo in the future so you have the ability to keep "skip commercials" feature which is now part of your 921.

People need to see through the marketing strategy on this. If they are successful in nickel dimeing you on this it will open the door to all sorts of a la carte charges for features you were supposed to get as a part of the receiver but due to a bug was delayed and now a bug fix but it costs per month. I'm not a litigious person but this really smells of legal class action and fraud.


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## deweybrunner

Don, I agree with you 100%. You have make a great contribution to this total 921 improvements we have to date.. Maybe, I should not have subscribed, however, it is very important to me(especially the wife) that I succombed. Hopefully, a new software will come soon to correct this. If the 811 owners do not have to subscribe, we certainly should not. Thanks for commments!


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## Mark Lamutt

deweybrunner said:


> I just talked to a "super Tech" at dish about the problem of no ota guide info. She told me this was "definitely" a software problem, that they were working on as we speak. I went thru what Mark had said and the numbers of irate 921 owners out there now, including myself. She said, "please believe me, it is "a software" problem and it is going to be fixed". I asked her how soon, a week, a month or what. She said it could take a month. I told her if it takes that long, just subscribe me to the Tampa locals at $5.00 month. She said I could drop as soon as the new software was released.


 The "supertech" was incorrect, unfortuately, until and unless your complaints are heard, and the decision to go this route is reversed. The info that I posted came straight from the 921 project lead at Eldon. This is what they were told to do.


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## WildBill

Mark Lamutt said:


> The "supertech" was incorrect, unfortuately, until and unless your complaints are heard, and the decision to go this route is reversed. The info that I posted came straight from the 921 project lead at Eldon. This is what they were told to do.


Mark,

If this indeed is what they were told to do, the question for me is why? If it were done as a matter of expediency, to get the update out the door faster, the smart thing to do (admittedly not the strong suit of Dish execs) would be to announce that they were starting to implement the OTA guide with local subscribers and then add others as soon as possible. This would be frustrating for non-subscribers, but at least they could see that progress was being made. On the other hand, if they were told to do so in order to gouge non-subscribers out of a few extra bucks, then ALL Dish customers (not just 921 owners) should be concerned. What and who is next?


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## Mark Lamutt

I have a feeling it has completely to do with $$$...


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## bbriggs

Mark Lamutt said:


> I have a feeling it has completely to do with $$$...


That's more depressing than no OTA guide.


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## evyst

Unbelievable!! First they make me wait months for the 921. Then it comes with a ton of bugs. Then they discount the unit so mine is worth half of what I paid for it. Then they add a $4.98 a month DVR charge, which incidentally, should include the cost of an OTA guide. Now they say I have to subscribe to my locals to get it. Why would you subscribe to your local channels if you spent the money for a unit with a built in OTA receiver.
First time a class action suit is brought up, please contact me! I'll stick with "E" long enough to justify what I spent on the 921 and then its "adios been good to know ya".


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## DonLandis

Fascinating. For once I hope you are wrong, Mark. 

If people cave on this, like Dewey admitted doing, then they will be justified and will simply do more of the same. If this is the way it will be with Dish, then after CES, I will be dropping my $110 per month account! 

I wonder how much per month you people will be paying for the blue line bug fix?


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## Mark Lamutt

I really hope that I'm wrong as well, but... :shrug:

And for the record, the $4.98 DVR fee was in place before the 921 was even released...

And, also for the record, I do subscribe to local dish channels, and will continue to do so because I need them for my 2 508 receivers. 

Definitely doesn't mean that I like this policy, though...


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## Mike D-CO5

This is all playing right into the hands of old Rupert Murdoch. All he has to do is continue to improve the Directv product and give more for their customer's money. Notice they will be adding hd locals first . Notice only one whole account fee rather than a per receiver fee. Notice that locals are cheaper with Directv vs Dish. Notice they will have both Tivo software that works, and their own NDS software for generic dvrs that will most likely be free of fees.

IF Charlie keeps going down this path he is going to play right into old Rupert's hands. He is nickeling and dimeing his customers to death. And I remember when Charlie offered "NO DVR FEES" on his last class of dvrs;(501/508/721 ). I also remember how many people went with Dish because of this and how many people stayed with Dish because of the DVR FEES that Directv charged at the time. Dish grew while Directv stood still . 

Now I see the future . More and more people will churn and go to Directv. Dish's high end customers who have sunk more than a thousand dollars into these 921 dvrs get asked to pay more just to get the basic ota guide information that comes for free with the 811 as well as Directv's hd Tivo. Oh I guess that will change with the next software update for the 811. They will add this feature to those receivers as well. No dish locals --no ota guide info. Got to make that money you know. 

This is no way to treat your best high tech customers who are willing to pay in order to own the latest and best receivers. Oh I forgot that is going to change too. Soon everyone will be a lease customer since Dish isn't going to sell anymore to new customers come next month. They want everyone on the lease plan. More and more they are turning into the Satellite Cable Pig. :eek2: 

OINK! OINK!


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## n0qcu

What would be good is if everybody that could when they call up and are told they must add their locals to get guide data. They should say, OK add the locals but DROP the HD pak.


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## TonyB

n0qcu said:


> What would be good is if everybody that could when they call up and are told they must add their locals to get guide data. They should say, OK add the locals but DROP the HD pak.


I like that. Yes, with HD locals I don't need the HD pack. They only carry CBS anyway. Better deal to get all network HD's OTA than their stuff. Saves money too since its $10 for HD pack and $6 for Locals.


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## bluegreg

mark
One reason I bought the 921 was to get free local channels! they sell the unit to get locals why not give the guide data? very annoyed! I still cant record a local and change the channels without cancel rocord?
greg


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## Kagato

Minneapolis OTA guide for PBS. (Analog Channels 2 and 17) Note, PBS has the correct schedule on their national site, so I'm assuming Tribune has the data.

Ch 2-1 TPT-HD(Acutal channel 34), this is a national HDTV feed, not the Analog Channel 2
Ch 17-1 TPT-2D(Actual Channel 16) This IS Analog Channel 2
Ch 17-2 TPT-17D(Actual Channel 16) This IS Analog Channel 17
Ch 17-3 TPT-KIDS(Actual Channel 16) This is PBS-Kids national feed
Ch 17-4 TPT-YOU(Actual Channel 16) This is PBS-U National feed
Ch 17-6 TPT-WX(Actual Channel 16) This is local Weather Radar

Cheers!


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## rjbu

Mark Lamutt said:


> Well, I just go it...
> 
> Officially from Dish - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.
> 
> As for pulling guide data from other DMAs, that one I'm still working on.


I have both the 921 and 811. I subscribe to the NY locals, but I currently have my OTA HD antenna pointed toward Philadelphia. On the 811 I do get guide data for the Philly OTA HD channels, but on the 921 I do not.

So regardless of whether DISH makes you pay for guide data for OTA channels or not, can they fix the 921 so that it gives you guide data for any channel you get like the 811 does?


----------



## lujan

Mark Lamutt said:


> Well, I just go it...
> 
> Officially from Dish - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.
> 
> As for pulling guide data from other DMAs, that one I'm still working on.


I've heard a lot of people talking about removing local from their plans, but I don't know if all of them have thought it through. I was watching "Lost" on the ABC local OTA channel tonight and at about half way through, the signal went from HD to SD. At about 3/4 of the way the signal went black and then went to a program that was supposed to start after "Lost". The technology is too new and I see these types of problems all the time. I was able to switch to my local ABC station on satellite and resume watching "Lost". I think it is very premature to think about removing the local package until the OTA digital stations are much more stable.


----------



## William_K_F

Hi,

I get San Francisco locals OTA and also currently subscribe to analog locals from dish (planning to drop them once OTA works).

I get guide data for all stations except the following:

Assigned Frequency Call Id
38-01 39 KCNS
43-02 43 JAZZ (This one is strange since 43-1 shows maybe due to call letters differing?)
65-01 41 KKPX
47-01 47 KTLN

My guess is that dish doesn't carry these stations analog and hence no data. But I wonder why they don't have to carry them? I have the extra dish to supposedly get all the locals.

Thanks.

-William


----------



## HarryE

*Local subscriber but No Program Guide

I successfully received the New 211 software last night but as of tonight have no program guide for the OTA Sacramento locals. I am currently a Dish subscriber for the Sac. locals. Last night I performed a power cord reboot and rescanned both my analogue and digital local channels and successfully added them to my Favorites. I thought it might take some time for the program info. to populate the guide but when I turned on the receiver tonight there was still no program guide for the OTA channels locals. It eigher says "Local Progamming" or "No Information Available". However, when I pull up the program guide and scroll to the locals on occasion some of the local digital channel number boxes (like 003-01) while show up red, not blue. But when I scroll up and down the red box will disappear or jump to another channel number. Some times I will have several channel numbers in red and other times none will be red when I pull up the program guide. Any suggestions?

Thanks Mark for all your hard work.

Dish DVR-921
Boot Version 120B
Flash Version F051
SW Version L211HECD-N*


----------



## Stingray

Mark - After L211 downloaded, everything was as before, OTA stations still intact and working as in L188. Trick play OK on all channels NO OTA GUIDE INFO.  I do subscribe to my Detroit locals. Boot:140B, Flash:054, Card Rev: DNASP103 rev 300, SW: L211HECD-N, In service date 17JUL04

I have since deleted the OTA stations, deleted all timers, power cord rebooted, scanned digital OTA's back in, and smart card rebooted.... once last night and repeated the sequence again this evening. All digital OTA channel numbers (002-01, etc.) are in blue, but Still NO GUIDE INFO for OTA's.  

Is there anything else I can do? This item is very important to me as I like to do most recording (time shifting) from the digital OTA channels. :nono2: 

Stingray


----------



## jsanders

William_K_F said:


> I get guide data for all stations except the following:
> 
> Assigned Frequency Call Id
> 38-01 39 KCNS
> 43-02 43 JAZZ (This one is strange since 43-1 shows maybe due to call letters differing?)
> 65-01 41 KKPX
> 47-01 47 KTLN


I'm guessing you get KNTV, channel 11, since you're in Saratoga. Did you know that KNTV is also transmitted at 48.2? 48.1 is telemundo, 48.2 is also KNTV. Look in your guide at 48.2, do you see the call letters that say KNTV? Now look at the program guide. Is the guide for KNTV or Telemundo?

How does 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.4, and 9.5 look? Are they what you expected?


----------



## jsanders

lujan said:


> I've heard a lot of people talking about removing local from their plans, but I don't know if all of them have thought it through. I was watching "Lost" on the ABC local OTA channel tonight and at about half way through, the signal went from HD to SD. At about 3/4 of the way the signal went black and then went to a program that was supposed to start after "Lost". The technology is too new and I see these types of problems all the time. I was able to switch to my local ABC station on satellite and resume watching "Lost". I think it is very premature to think about removing the local package until the OTA digital stations are much more stable.


I'm the one that learned the hard way that we were being charged for the OTA guide data. I had guide data when the new software was installed, and I lost it when I cancelled my locals.

It isn't premature to do that depending on where you live. The SF Bay area has had digital transmissions for a few years, and it is so stable that in the year I've had the 921, I have never even once watched a program on the SD local.

The customer is the one that should decide whether they need sd locals, Dish shouldn't try to coerce them into subscribing to them.


----------



## moviegoerman

The following channels are missing guide information for the Atlanta area:

063-04 Enia (Digital)
063-03 JCTV (Digital)
063-02 Chur (Digital)
063-01 TBN (Digital)

069 (Analog)
057 (Analog)
053 (Analog)
046 WGCL (Analog)
040 (Analog)
036 WATL (Analog)
034 (Analog)
032 (Analog)
023 (Analog)
017 (Analog)
014 (Analog)
011 (Analog)
008 (Analog)
005 (Analog)
004 (Analog)
002 (Analog)


----------



## KKlare

jsanders said:


> I need a little help understanding you comment, which I suspect is information I've been wanting to find out.
> 
> Are you saying that the 811 gets the OTA guide data for your PBS sub-channels without error, but your 921 (with L211) doesn't?


Sorry, I missed this from December 7th, 2004, 04:19 PM.

The 811 displays guide for OTA digital subchannel corresponding to the analog LIL. As it depends on the LIL, it will never have info for the other subchannels IMHO -- PBS for me.

I thought the 921 had content info but tonight it had only guide title for the low-number LIL, with analog disabled. I'm back to using the 88xx guide. Maybe it will be there overnight. hope hope


----------



## KKlare

I confirm a post (I cannot find) that for the OTA digital channels in the guide you can go down but not up. My guide has highest at top and I didn't check the other way.


----------



## skassan

lujan said:


> I've heard a lot of people talking about removing local from their plans, but I don't know if all of them have thought it through. I was watching "Lost" on the ABC local OTA channel tonight and at about half way through, the signal went from HD to SD. At about 3/4 of the way the signal went black and then went to a program that was supposed to start after "Lost". The technology is too new and I see these types of problems all the time. I was able to switch to my local ABC station on satellite and resume watching "Lost". I think it is very premature to think about removing the local package until the OTA digital stations are much more stable.


One other benefit of having the local plan is the ability to record two network programs simultaneously.


----------



## TonyB

skassan said:


> One other benefit of having the local plan is the ability to record two network programs simultaneously.


Thats the whole point of the 921. Of course it can record 2 programs simultaneously! That has nothing to do with locals! The point of Locals is for those people that cannot receive the old fashioned analog locals (and want to) OTA. These days, local stations also transmit 1 or more digital sub channels (that will eventually become the main channel). The 921 was supposed to be designed to allow users to receive these digital locals. Since there product brochures state that a) you can receive OTA locals and b) there is programming guide support (no mention of only partial support) users rightly assume that what is displayed on the screen as program content is indeed what one would see if the station is selected.

This whole brew-ha is all about a brand new cost of getting what was promised, especially when the other E* HD receiver is already doing it - and FREE by the way.


----------



## jsanders

skassan said:


> One other benefit of having the local plan is the ability to record two network programs simultaneously.


No offense, but I would never want to record the highly compressed SD local. the picture isn't worth anything to me.

However, for sake of argument, I can record two HD network programs at the same time! I ordered CBS-HD, and I can record that along with any of the other HD networks (including OTA CBS-HD) simulteaneously. I ordered CBS-HD for that exact purpose. CBS is my most watched network, so this works out very well for me.

I have no need for SD, satellite locals.


----------



## DVDDave

jsanders said:


> I'm guessing you get KNTV, channel 11, since you're in Saratoga. Did you know that KNTV is also transmitted at 48.2? 48.1 is telemundo, 48.2 is also KNTV. Look in your guide at 48.2, do you see the call letters that say KNTV? Now look at the program guide. Is the guide for KNTV or Telemundo?
> 
> How does 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.4, and 9.5 look? Are they what you expected?


I'm just got off the phone with Dish advance tech support. I have exactly the same problem: the KNTV (48.2) guide info shows the programs on Telemundo (KSTS 48.1).

First, she acknowledged that the OTA guide has a bug that returns the info for the first subchannel only no matter which subchannel is selected. She said it will be fixed in the next download. Of course, she could not say when that will be though.

Second, I asked what channel number to put in for 48.2 to look at the signal strength or add it manually in the Add DTV screen. The screen only accepts 2 digits and neither 48 nor 12 (the other designator for this digital channel) gave any indication of a signal. She did not know the answer and we both figured it may be part of the same bug above which causes the receiver not to handle subchannels correctly.

Hope this helps.

--Dave


----------



## paulcdavis

DVDDave said:


> I'm just got off the phone with Dish advance tech support. I have exactly the same problem: the KNTV (48.2) guide info shows the programs on Telemundo (KSTS 48.1).
> 
> First, she acknowledged that the OTA guide has a bug that returns the info for the first subchannel only no matter which subchannel is selected. She said it will be fixed in the next download. Of course, she could not say when that will be though.
> 
> Second, I asked what channel number to put in for 48.2 to look at the signal strength or add it manually in the Add DTV screen. The screen only accepts 2 digits and neither 48 nor 12 (the other designator for this digital channel) gave any indication of a signal. She did not know the answer and we both figured it may be part of the same bug above which causes the receiver not to handle subchannels correctly.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> --Dave


KNTV (48.2) NBC HD and KSTS (48.1) are transmitted on channel 49. Use channel 49 in the add DTV screen to get both stations added. However, you will not get guide data for KNTV. For a complete list of SF Bay Area stations see:

http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html


----------



## William_K_F

jsanders said:


> I'm guessing you get KNTV, channel 11, since you're in Saratoga. Did you know that KNTV is also transmitted at 48.2? 48.1 is telemundo, 48.2 is also KNTV. Look in your guide at 48.2, do you see the call letters that say KNTV? Now look at the program guide. Is the guide for KNTV or Telemundo?
> 
> How does 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.4, and 9.5 look? Are they what you expected?


Yes, I used to get KNTV via 48-2 however, since the L211 it has been really inconsistent signal, although this could be due to weather.

Yes, the call letters in the guide shows KNTV for 48-2, but the program guide doesn't put that together and instead shows same as 48-1 guide data.

With respect to KQED: 9-1 through 9-5, they all got mapped again fine and the guide data is as expected what the analog is broadcasting for dish locals on all five.


----------



## mfrodsha

Only problem with OTAs is that the guide data for same call numbers with multiple channels is duplicated for all channels. In other words, 5-1 (SD) and 5-2 (HD) have the same guide data, even though they might have different programming. This is especially evident in SLC with 7-1, 7-2, and 7-3 (PBS), each of which have different programming, but all carry the guide data for 7-1. This is also true for 11-1, 11-2 11-3, 11-4, and 11-5 (BYU TV channels) - same guide data, but different actual programming.


----------



## Stingray

L211 downloaded, everything was as before, Digital OTA stations still intact and working as in L188. Trick play OK on all channels. NO Digital OTA GUIDE INFO. I DO SUBSCRIBE to my Detroit locals. 

Boot:140B, Flash:054, Card Rev: DNASP103 rev 300, SW: L211HECD-N, In service date 17JUL04

I have since deleted the OTA stations, deleted all timers, power cord rebooted, scanned digital (only) OTA's back in, and smart card rebooted.... once last night and repeated the sequence again this evening. All digital OTA channel numbers (002-01, etc.) are in blue, but Still NO GUIDE INFO for Digital OTA's. Above sequence done again for third time = NO PROGRAM INFO IN GUIDE or BANNER.

Detroit digital locals - 
002-01 WJBK freq 58 FOX
004-01 WDIV 45 NBC
006-01 WLNS 59 CBS Lansing MI
007-01 WXYZ 41 ABC
012-01 WJRT 36 ABC Flint MI
020-01 WDWB 21 WB
050-01 WKBD 14 UPN
056-01 WTVS 43 PBS
062-01 WWJ 44 CBS


----------



## jsanders

Did you set that preference in the view preferences, in the second window pane Stingray?


----------



## zer0cool

OK, I've been thinking about this OTa recording thing. Now, let's say I'm scrolling through channel previews at the bottom of my screen, and stop on NBC HD (005-01 for me). The info bar say's the next program is "Joey". I hit the info button, but there's no info available. So I scroll one channel down to NBC SD (5 for me). I can then get the program info I want for "Joey". I decide I want to record it (in HD of course, so let's just assume the program in question is available in HD). I scroll back to 005-01 and set the program to record. However, we all know what is actually going to record is channel 5 (actually remapped 8400), not 005-01. So, I have to manually edit the timer to get the channel I want to record after reading the program info from another version of the channel. so my question is, where is the big advantage in the OTA channel info of 211? (211 has made the 921 a much better box overall, I'll agree).


----------



## bbomar

zer0cool said:


> OK, I've been thinking about this OTa recording thing. Now, let's say I'm scrolling through channel previews at the bottom of my screen, and stop on NBC HD (005-01 for me). The info bar say's the next program is "Joey". I hit the info button, but there's no info available. So I scroll one channel down to NBC SD (5 for me). I can then get the program info I want for "Joey". I decide I want to record it (in HD of course, so let's just assume the program in question is available in HD). I scroll back to 005-01 and set the program to record. However, we all know what is actually going to record is channel 5 (actually remapped 8400), not 005-01. So, I have to manually edit the timer to get the channel I want to record after reading the program info from another version of the channel. so my question is, where is the big advantage in the OTA channel info of 211? (211 has made the 921 a much better box overall, I'll agree).


Maybe I don't understand. I know what you are saying about going to the
SD LIL channel to get the information. It doesn't show up if you press the INFO button over the OTA channel. However, when I go back to
the HD channel (005-01 in your case) and set a timer there, that is the
channel it records, not 5-SD. Now, the red dot does indeed go into the
5-SD box even though I set the timer on 005-01, but it records 005-01.
At least that's what has happened on the timers I've set so far. It's
also nice that the recording now has the correct channel number,
the correct program name, and even the correct program information.
Before we got something like 261 - and a wrong title.


----------



## zer0cool

Actually, I could be the one who's wrong. I just know there's been some discussion of the SD channels being recorded instead of the HD, and when I went to look at the timer properties, it showed that channel 5 would be recorded (remapped 8400), so I edited the timer to record 005-01. Maybe I didn't have to, but it sure looked like it was going to record the wrong channel to me.


----------



## bbomar

zer0cool said:


> Actually, I could be the one who's wrong. I just know there's been some discussion of the SD channels being recorded instead of the HD, and when I went to look at the timer properties, it showed that channel 5 would be recorded (remapped 8400), so I edited the timer to record 005-01. Maybe I didn't have to, but it sure looked like it was going to record the wrong channel to me.


Give it a try on something that doesn't matter. I've recorded several
programs by setting the timer on the OTA guide data. The timer will
show the correct channel (005-01) even if the dot goes into the wrong
(SD LIL) box. I think I read that there may be a problem setting OTA timers
from search results - but I haven't tried that.


----------



## Stingray

jsanders said:


> Did you set that preference in the view preferences, in the second window pane Stingray?


My understanding is that the switch you are referring to only affects OTA SD stations and not OTA Digital ones, but YES I have toggled it and it doesn't change anything. I believe that if I had scanned in OTA analog channels that they would be remapped if that switch was checked. Might be wrong about that tho.


----------



## boylehome

I finished watching Charlie Chat and I put on the football game in HD. I brought up the EPG. Only two hours of guide information. I checked my 721 and my 501 and their guided are fully populated. I did a power cord reboot on the 921 and still only two hours of guide data. Anyone else encountering this?
PS-I had all the program data in the guide on my 921 before Charlie Chat.

Checked the guide at 5:00PST. All data for EPG has returned. I also noticed that the 921 did an automatic reboot.


----------



## Redster

Just checked a weekly timer set for OTA 013-1,, its not recording,, no 0 sec, nothing. It does work if I scroll ahead and manually select record though.


----------



## markcollins

Mark lamutt-Also has anyone brought up that The local remapped Guide is out of sync with Local broadcasts due Iguess to retransmission delays.It makes setting a timer Impossible unless you start 1 min early.With only 1 OTA tuner then you can not reasonably record back to back shows OTA.This is a very good reason this type Of OTA guide is unacceptable.Has Eldon been notified of this?


----------



## boylehome

jsanders said:


> No offense, but I would never want to record the highly compressed SD local. the picture isn't worth anything to me.


Amen, jsanders!


----------



## Cyclone

I am in the Wash DC DMA, but I also receive Baltimore OTA at Grade A strengths. I do subscribe to the DC locals and they are located in the guide.

I am getting EPG data for my DC OTA digitals. I do not however get the Baltimore EPG data, despite Baltimore being available from Dish Network.

I do the have the usual "each sub-channnel" as the same data issue that everyone else has. I'll run though my channel listing:

2.1 WMAR ABC - No EPG, should remap from ch 8730
2.2 WMAR ABC - No EPG, should be ABC News Now.
2.3 WMAR ABC - No EPG, should be Weather Radar
4.1 WRC NBC - EPG works 
5.1 WTTG FOX - EPG works
7.1 WJLA ABC - EPG works
7.2 WJLA ABC - EPG same as 7.1, should be ABC News Now
9.1 WUSA CBS - EPG Works
9.2 WUSA CBS - EPG same as 9.1, should be weather Radar
11.1 WBAL NBC - HD No EPG, should remap from ch 8732
11.2 WBAL NBC - SD No EPG, should remap from ch 8732
13.1 WJZ CBC - No EPG, should remap from ch 8731
20.1 WDCA UPN - low power, unable to receive/verify
22.2 WMPT PBS - No EPG, should remap from ch 8726
22.3-6 MPT Various PBS sub-channel EPG required
24.1 WUTB UPN - No EPG, should remap from ch 8735
26.1 WETA PBS - This HD channel's EPG shows the SD channel data of 26.2.
26.2 WETA PBS - EPG works (from ch 8076) SD simulcast
26.3 WETA PBS - EPG of 26.2, should be PBS Kids
26.4 WETA PBS - EPG of 26.2, should be PBS You
30.1 WNVC MHz - EPG works
30.2-4 WNVC MHz - No EPG info. Would expect 30.1 EPG data.
45.1 WBFF FOX - HD No EPG, should be remap of ch 8733
45.2 WBFF FOX - SD No EPG, should be a remap of ch 8733
50.1 WBDC WB - EPG works
54.1 WNUV WB - HD No EPG, should be a remap of ch 8734
54.2 WNUV WB - SD No EPG, should be a remap of ch 8734
57.1 WNVT MHz - EPG works
57.2-4 WNVT MHz - No EPG, would expect 57.1 data on subchannels.
62.2-6 WFPT PBS (same as 22.2-6 MPT data)
67.2-6 WMPB PBS (same as 22.6 MPT data)


All of the "should be a remap of.." are Baltimore channels.


----------



## NukeBug

I am in Amarillo Texas and my locals do not have any guide data for OTA. Locals are available thru Dish, but I do not subscribe.


----------



## doverton

Mark Lamutt said:


> Please post any problems you see with OTA digital guide data in this thread. Stations that you don't have any guide data for, stations that are listing incorrect guide data, etc.
> 
> Once again, please be as specific as possible.


Northern California, KOVR is playing CBS-HD on 13-1, but the channel guide is the same as for the Local channel. Really threw me the first time I jumped in there. But then, I am new to the 921 world


----------



## Sundance

bs


----------



## Sundance

Officially from Dish - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.


Those Chicken s&*^ B%^$#*#@s. Cable is looking better everyday.


----------



## The Guv

Sundance said:


> Officially from Dish - you must subscribe to your locals package to receive guide data. It's not a bug.
> 
> Those Chicken s&*^ B%^$#*#@s. Cable is looking better everyday.


I, for one, will NEVER EVER subscribe to the locals package on Dish Network. I live in a rural area where I can pick up strong OTA signals from 3 different TV markets. I use a large antenna with directional rotar for my OTA channels.

Why would I want to pay $6 a month for locals channels that I don't need or use? I won't pay this fee for JUST getting OTA guide data for just one of the OTA markets I recieve.

Dish Network...I have been a continious customer of yours since June 1999, but this issue is testing my patience with your company.

I just purchased a 921 reciever last month, but will throw it away (after I destroy it with my sledgehammer) and get something else (Voom, Direct TV, or local Mediacom) if this isn't guide data isn't available to 921 high-end users in the next couple of months w/o having to subscribe to locals.


----------



## welchwarlock

I installed my 921 on Monday, January 3rd, and do not have any guide data for OTA channels. My 811, however, does. I am have the latest L211 software

When I called Dish, I was 1st told that the reason was that my OTA signal strength was too low (All of my channels are 107-120). I did not understand their response, as I thought the guide came from the satellite, and was available for the channels that they send down over the satellite.

I was able to convice them that their previous statement was wrong, then they took the position that this feature was not available in the 921, and would be added later.

I have re-booted, power cycled, and toggled the local channel option on the "preferences>more>" screen, but have had no luck at all getting any guide information.

Any help out there?


----------



## mwgiii

To get OTA guide data for the 921 you MUST subscribe to Dish local's package.

That may or may not change in the future.


----------



## oxy8384

TonyB said:


> Thats the whole point of the 921. Of course it can record 2 programs simultaneously! That has nothing to do with locals! The point of Locals is for those people that cannot receive the old fashioned analog locals (and want to) OTA. These days, local stations also transmit 1 or more digital sub channels (that will eventually become the main channel). The 921 was supposed to be designed to allow users to receive these digital locals. Since there product brochures state that a) you can receive OTA locals and b) there is programming guide support (no mention of only partial support) users rightly assume that what is displayed on the screen as program content is indeed what one would see if the station is selected.
> 
> This whole brew-ha is all about a brand new cost of getting what was promised, especially when the other E* HD receiver is already doing it - and FREE by the way.


Admittedly, this is one reason many of us bought the 921. The reality is that you can not record two OTA channels (or record one and watch another) at the same time. If you're recording OTA, the only thing you can watch (at least in MY experience) is that same OTA channel. If you try to watch another channel you are asked to cancel the recording. THAT'S the only reason I subscribe to my locals - in case there are two network shows I want to watch/record at the same time.


----------



## jsanders

oxy8384 said:


> Admittedly, this is one reason many of us bought the 921. The reality is that you can not record two OTA channels (or record one and watch another) at the same time. If you're recording OTA, the only thing you can watch (at least in MY experience) is that same OTA channel. If you try to watch another channel you are asked to cancel the recording. THAT'S the only reason I subscribe to my locals - in case there are two network shows I want to watch/record at the same time.


Technically true, but there are ways around it. I can record KCBS Los Angeles in HD, and I can record KGO (ABC) San Francisco HD simultaneously. CBS HD is a good thing, it provides me a lot of flexability since I record from it the most shows.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Do you subscribe to your dish locals? If not, that's why you don't have the guide data on the 921.


----------



## oxy8384

jsanders said:


> Technically true, but there are ways around it. I can record KCBS Los Angeles in HD, and I can record KGO (ABC) San Francisco HD simultaneously. CBS HD is a good thing, it provides me a lot of flexability since I record from it the most shows.


They're not both OTA, are they? Are you getting the separate CBS-HD on satellite? If they're both OTA, how do you do this with a single 921?


----------



## welchwarlock

Mark Lamutt said:


> Do you subscribe to your dish locals? If not, that's why you don't have the guide data on the 921.


My 811 receiver has the guide data for the OTA local channels, but my 911 does not. I called Dish, and they said that it was a bug in the 911 that was being fixed. I do not have local channel subscription...

That's why I bought the 811 even though I only have one HDTV, and that was so I could unsubscribe to the local channels, and have the guide info. The local channels are so over compressed anyways, the picture quality is poor.

What is the real scoop here?


----------



## Mark Lamutt

The scoop is that with the 921, you must subscribe to the local channel package in order to get the guide data. There's a very long thread about this issue in this forum.


----------



## styxfix

I can't add locals to my programming from DISH without dropping one of my distant stations. I already get two distant networks and since my LA CBS-HD is not one of my distant network cities, DISH claims they cannot legally provide network programming to more than three different cities. If I want to sub to my SD local network stations, this would be more than three different network cities and I must be willing to drop one of my distant stations or my LA CBS-HD station that I get at no extra cost.

I'm not willing to drop any of distant networks just to pay extra for locals every month for which I really won't watch through DISH just to get the OTA program guide on the 921 but works fine on my 811 receiver.

How many people are going to sub or re-sub to their locals just to get the program guide on the 921? 

What is the $4.98 DVR fee for if you can't get the OTA program guide or record the current program on your OTA digital station and watch/record another sat station at the same time? 

Is this DISH letting us know how much they care for their high-end customers?


----------



## jsanders

oxy8384 said:


> They're not both OTA, are they? Are you getting the separate CBS-HD on satellite? If they're both OTA, how do you do this with a single 921?


Los Angeles CBS HD is from the satellite. I also have two terrestrial antennas on the roof with filters and combiners to get all of my channels. The point is, since I record most of my stuff from CBS, I usually have a free OTA tuner to record the other major networks simultaneously.


----------



## TVBob

San Jose station KTEH, analog 54, broadcasts digitally on 50-1, with no PSIP channel remapping to it's analog Channel 54 (yet). But we also have analog channel 50, KFTY Santa Rosa, in the San Francisco DMA, and the guide gets confused.

Instead of displaying KTEH guide data for Ch. 50-1, it displays KFTY's data. See screen capture of guide, attached below.

Clearly one way to fix this is to index guide by data by PSIP call letters (_if_ they start with K or W) rather than relying on mapped-down channel numbers.

Once guide data is available for all subchannels (a vendor problem, not exclusive to DISH), perhaps all these guide data problems will finally go away.

In the mean time, maybe someone can help KTEH turn on PSIP channel map-down (map-up in this case). KTEH is a very small PBS station, the very last station in the Bay Area to go live with digital broadcasting.

Mark,

Should I submit a new Bug Report Forum entry for this one, since it's kind of different?

*Update 1/19/2005:*
I think KTEH must have just enabled PSIP data for the first time last night. I don't know if it was my voicemail/email to KTEH Engineering, which never replied to either, but last night my HDTV's integrated tuner reported that "Channel 50 is now available as Channel 54". The DVR-921 just showed a blank screen on 50-1, but after manually deleting 50-1 and adding it back, it now shows up on the 921 as Channel 54-1 as it should, and the Guide Data is finally correct.


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## Mark Lamutt

Your report is fine here, Bob. No need to put it in the bug reports forum.


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## William_K_F

I'd say that it is a bug that you can't keep your grandfathered distant networks and continue to get guide data by subscribing to local networks.

I hope they can resolve this before the cut off date of April 7!


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## chewey

styxfix said:


> I can't add locals to my programming from DISH without dropping one of my distant stations. I already get two distant networks and since my LA CBS-HD is not one of my distant network cities, DISH claims they cannot legally provide network programming to more than three different cities. If I want to sub to my SD local network stations, this would be more than three different network cities and I must be willing to drop one of my distant stations or my LA CBS-HD station that I get at no extra cost.
> 
> I'm not willing to drop any of distant networks just to pay extra for locals every month for which I really won't watch through DISH just to get the OTA program guide on the 921 but works fine on my 811 receiver.
> 
> How many people are going to sub or re-sub to their locals just to get the program guide on the 921?
> 
> What is the $4.98 DVR fee for if you can't get the OTA program guide or record the current program on your OTA digital station and watch/record another sat station at the same time?
> 
> Is this DISH letting us know how much they care for their high-end customers?


I'm in the same boat, I don't want to lose my east/west coast feeds, but the guide data would be nice.


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## Jon Spackman

can i move the cbs hd feed to show up next to chan 2 on the channel lineup? that way i could delete cbs OTA hd 2 and have the ability to record chan 2 and 4 hd at teh same time. (i just want it to show up next to sat 2.....thanks Jon


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## xsailor

> can i move the cbs hd feed to show up next to chan 2 on the channel lineup?


I do that now. I use one of my "favorite" guides to show only the HD channels and my OTA locals. I too live in San Diego (Norht County) and get my OTA from LA. So the CBS-HD shows on the guide between HBO-HD and OTA channel 4 (KNBC) -- I deleted the OTA chanel 2 (KCBS) since I'm getting that via CBS-HD. I would absolutely love to get OTA data info, but I too get distant locals and DISH says that you can't get both (SHIVA requirement).


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## aperkins

I get 'standard' KCET (channel 28 in LA) Program Guide information w/ OTA KCET-HD (channel 28-01 in LA). Is there a way to show KCET-HD info in the 'Guide' or is it simply not being provided by the KCET-HD source.


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## kinigit

My OTA guide was working better with L211 than with L212. With L211 incorrect information was shown for the PBS HD channel and now it shows "no information available" which is better.

However my Albuquerque ABC DT station no longer shows guide data. It is Digital channel 21 mapped to channel 7-1. It worked fine with L211. I've tried rebooting and readding the station but the same result happens everytime. All the other locals are mapped correctly.

I think it would be useful to be able to map channels manually.


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## tnsprin

kinigit said:


> My OTA guide was working better with L211 than with L212. With L211 incorrect information was shown for the PBS HD channel and now it shows "no information available" which is better.
> 
> However my Albuquerque ABC DT station no longer shows guide data. It is Digital channel 21 mapped to channel 7-1. It worked fine with L211. I've tried rebooting and readding the station but the same result happens everytime. All the other locals are mapped correctly.
> 
> I think it would be useful to be able to map channels manually.


Agreed. In NY channel 9-1 is wwor-dt 9-2 is currying WNYC (also 5.1) but in SD. The guide data is missing for 9.1 they HD channel for WWOR-DT.

They may have thought they were doing a favor with l212 of only assigning the data to one sub-channel, but since they are not always picking the right sub-channels it is really a mistake.


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## hollmrl

I subscribe to local channels for Colorado Springs and the Guide data for OTA Channel DT 21-1 is not being mapped from the from the Dish subscribed local channel. The guide data just shows "No Information Available", but the Dish provided local channel shows the correct guide data. This seems to only occur for channel DT 21-1 and appears to work fine for the other local channels. I have tried resetting/rebooting the 921 with no success. The guide data was present for Ver211, but was lost for Ver 212.

Boot:: 120B
Flash: F051
S/W: L212HECD-N


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## pdlittle

I am also no longer receiving guide data for three of my locals KCRG (ABC), KGAN (CBS) and KRIN (PBS) in Cedar Rapids. I do subscribe to the local channels. The data in the guide went away with the download of L212.

Mark, I've been away for awhile and I am just catching up. Do we need to provide station information for this or has the issue already been defined by Dish Network?

Paul


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## Frank Z

hollmrl said:


> I subscribe to local channels for Colorado Springs and the Guide data for OTA Channel DT 21-1 is not being mapped from the from the Dish subscribed local channel.


Fox 21 has been playing around with their equipment. The problem you're having doesn't have anything to do with the latest software, it's the station.


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## DVDDAD

I had no problems with L211, however immediately after getting L212, I lost all information my local UPN (WWOR-NY). I can set up manual timers and have full function DVR features when tuned to this channel. I just get, "No Information Available" on the EPG.


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## tnsprin

tnsprin said:


> Agreed. In NY channel 9-1 is wwor-dt 9-2 is currying WNYC (also 5.1) but in SD. The guide data is missing for 9.1 they HD channel for WWOR-DT.
> 
> They may have thought they were doing a favor with l212 of only assigning the data to one sub-channel, but since they are not always picking the right sub-channels it is really a mistake.


As others have commented. WWOR-dt is currently missing in action on the guide. It is broadcast from 38 and mapped to 9-1 and 9-2. Both show "no information available. Note the channel 44 broadcast wnyc-dt as 5-1, and a SD version of WWOR-dt on 5.2.


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## hollmrl

Frank Z said:


> Fox 21 has been playing around with their equipment. The problem you're having doesn't have anything to do with the latest software, it's the station.


I am not sure why this would cause failure of the guide data since it shows up on the Dish channel and all the 921 does is map it to the local channel. It would seem to me there is still an incompatability problem with the 921 & OTA broadcasts guide data mapping that Dish needs to fix.


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## Rob Glasser

I have a strange problem that I thought was related to the local channel data from Dish but now I think it's the 921. Basically I have 2 nights a week in which guide data for my local FOX affiliate (KCPQ in Seattle) doesn't show any guide info until the time of the show. Until the show is on it just shows No Information Available. It is always Sunday evening and Wednesday evening, 2 of the evenings I record shows on FOX. When I look at the guide on my 721 it's all there, but not on my 921. Very strange. I end up having to make manual timers in order to record shows during those times. Anyone else seen problems where certain hours in a day do not show up? It has been this way since I bought the 921 at Costco a month and a half ago.


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## Shani

robglasser said:


> Basically I have 2 nights a week in which guide data for my local FOX affiliate (KCPQ in Seattle) doesn't show any guide info until the time of the show. ... It is always Sunday evening and Wednesday evening, 2 of the evenings I record shows on FOX.


Same here, no guide data for KCPQ Seattle from 4pm to _about_ 11pm PST Sun & Wed. This is on both the OTA channel 13 and Sat chan 8613. I do have the guide data on my 501 and 510.
I said above "_about_" 11pm because if you scroll to the right to 10pm it all of a sudden shows up from 10pm on. And if you go back from 10pm and watch _real close_ you'll see the 9:30 show info flash for a bare second, then go back to No Information.


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## Hound

I purchased a 921 from Dish and was told that if I subscribed to local channels that
I would get the guide for my OTA channels. I live in Central, NJ. I am in the Philadelphia, PA Dish local channel area and get the Philadelphia OTA channels and locals from Dish. My town is on the county line and it adjoins the beginning of the New York City, NY area for Dish locals. New York OTA is available to me if I turned my OTA antenna in the opposite direction. I am using software 212 and have Boot 150B. My Philadelphia Dish locals are displayed in my guide using numbers starting at 8150. I cannot get them to drop down to 3,6,10, 12,17, 29, etc. The Dish salesperson who sold me the 921 told me that the local Dish channels would drop down. My OTA locals are in the guide as 3-1, 6-1, 6-2,6-3, 10-1, etc. However, I get no guide information for the OTA channels. It is very annoying and I cannot record anything on the OTA channels. I cannot set the timer. I tried a manual recording and it did not work. My kids will not use the OTA channels because there
is no guide. They do not understand to jump to 8150 to see what is playing.
I have called Dish three times and they said that they know about the problem and are working on it. They described it as a software problem. They said that they hoped it would be fixed in the next software release.


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## Hound

Got 213 this morning and still have no guide information for any of my OTA channels. My locals purchased from Dish are still shown at numbers starting at 8150. Have not dropped down as
Dish promised. Cannot record any of my OTA channels. Dish promised that this would be fixed.
Did not happen.


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## Ke.ster

I subscribe to my area Locals and I don't receive any OTA Guide Info on 5 out of the 7 Main Buffalo, NY DTV Stations.

NBC - WGRZ - 02-01 - No Information
CBS - WIVB - 04-01 - No Information
PBS - WNED - 43-01 - No Information
UPN - WNLO - 04-03 - No Information
WB - WNYO - 49-01 - No Information

I have been updated to L213


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## Curmudgeon

1. There are two kinds of OTA...Digital and Analog. It might be helpful to be specific when referring to "OTA" and lack of program guide info . They ain't the same, folks.

2. I have a 921 with L213. I get program info for ALL local channels - digital and analog, in both the 8000 series "local from Dish" analog listing AND the "dropped down" digital and analog series. (3, 3.1, 6, 6.1 etc). I expected the 8000 analog local listings to disappear, but they never have...but that's OK with me.

3. If I have a 921 and L213 and I DO get all the channel info, then that tells me it is NOT a software issue, cause we're all working with the SAME software and firmware here! It may be a PSID issue, a local station issue, a Tribune guide issue...but I don't see how it could be a L213/921 issue.

Same software and same firmware will yield IDENTICAL results across the board to every user and this is obviously not the case.

My 2 cents worth.


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## revenson

Curmudgeon said:


> 1. There are two kinds of OTA...Digital and Analog. It might be helpful to be specific when referring to "OTA" and lack of program guide info . They ain't the same, folks.
> 
> 2. I have a 921 with L213. I get program info for ALL local channels - digital and analog, in both the 8000 series "local from Dish" analog listing AND the "dropped down" digital and analog series. (3, 3.1, 6, 6.1 etc). I expected the 8000 analog local listings to disappear, but they never have...but that's OK with me.
> 
> 3. If I have a 921 and L213 and I DO get all the channel info, then that tells me it is NOT a software issue, cause we're all working with the SAME software and firmware here! It may be a PSID issue, a local station issue, a Tribune guide issue...but I don't see how it could be a L213/921 issue.
> 
> Same software and same firmware will yield IDENTICAL results across the board to every user and this is obviously not the case.
> 
> My 2 cents worth.


I would agree except for the fact BEFORE 213 I had all guide info for locals analog and digital and with 213 I no longer have info for NBC or FOX on the HD channel #. If I want to record HD off these two channels I have to set up manuel timers and after they record I have no info available in DVR list.


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## langlin

I have one of two OTA guides now, think it changed with 212, I had two of two with 211. Springfield, MO DMA  

NBC KYTV 03-01 ok
03-02 No Information

PBS KOZK 21-01 No Information
21-02 No Information (HD)
21-03 No Information
21-04 No Information

I also receive out of DMA

06-01 No Information
06-02 No Information
06-03 No Information
06-04 No Information


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## langlin

Mark,

Please forgive if you have already answered this question, but I was told by Dish super Tech that the 921 uses the guide stream from the OTA signal but what I read here is that that is not the case.

Can you confirm that the 921 does not  use the incoming guide stream from the OTA digital stations but rather "down converts" guide information already present in the Dish guide for the Local In Local?

It would help me to know. 

Leon


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## Mark Lamutt

Leon, the 921 DOES NOT use PSIP guide data for local OTA channels. All guide data for local OTA digital channels is mirrored from the Dish local package channels.


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## Stingray

Mark - This is my 921 update since July 2004. Still no D-OTA program guide information on ANY of my seven Detroit Locals which I do subscribe to. No improvement from L212 or L213. Still waiting, waiting, waiting..... Stingray

PS: Yes advanced support tech are incorrectly telling customers like Leon and I that the D-OTA guide comes from the broadcast data information (PSIP). They are clueless!!!


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## socceteer

WOW....Since I started to read this forum I have been looking at multiple forums within DBStalk about this particular subject, and I can't believe how many different answers there are on this subject. Also how many different threads.

I have read the following:

1) The problem is a know problem and Dish Network is working to fix it.
2) One Dishnetwork rep claims that they do not have a record of this problem, another claims that it is a know problem.
3) You need to subscribe to the local channels to get the OTA guide....... This does not make any sense, since the data is broadcat over the air and any receiver can capture it and display it except for the 921. I have another HD receiver and it gets the OTA program guide without any subscriptions, the 811 receiver also works well. I am subscribed to the local channel package. So I should be getting the guide.
4) I also see that some people do not have a problem with OTA guide. Strange..!
5) Some people report that the problem is with the Local stations not broadcasting the Guide together with the signal. Others report that It is a Dish Network problem with the 921 software, which does not know how to handle the information and display it on the guide. 

It is amazing on the difference of responses.

I have called and talked to others who have tried different approaches, my conclusion is that this is a problem with the 921 software and we need to continue to call Dishnetwork and report it a s problem so they can fix it.

Out of all the problems I have experienced, this is the one that upsets me the most.


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