# My house took a lightning hit. Any advice?



## IMFletcher2 (Jul 6, 2010)

Hi gang,

I always get so much good information here, I thought I would try again. 

I took a nearly direct hit to my house from lightning. There's no obvious damage to the house. The fire department was called, but there was no actual fire. It's clear I took a surge at a minimum. 

One breaker in the breaker panel was blown - the one where my dish power supply, DECA, computer switch, and antenna power supply were plugged in (all through a surge suppresor). 

It seems likely that the strike either hit or came close to the actual dish. I went to the roof and can see no damage to the dish, and no melted lines, but my whole system is wonky now. 

One HD DVR (HR 24) has worked the entire time. Another HR 24 has not been able to boot up since the hit. I had to replace the etheret switch box, so I put a new one in today. I tested all the ethernet in the house, and was able to connect a computer to the network from every room that is wired.

A third box, HD receiver without DVR, took a couple of hours to come to life, and I tried to move it to another TV and it didn't work. When I took it to its original TV today, it took a couple of hours to come back online again.

The DECA unit lights up, all three lights, but when running system tests on the two working receivers, both say they cannot connect to the internet. I tested the ethernet wire that connects the DECA to my switch box, and it works. The switch box is new out of the box. The lines to the switch box all work. The DECA has power. Is it likely that it just got blown out?

I plan to call DirecTV in the morning. Was hoping to avoid the cost of having someone come out. I am guessing that's everyone's best advice.

I've tried shutting down and unplugging everything, then booting back up my router, then the switch box, then the dish power supply, then the DECA, then the boxes. I have done reauthorizations from DirecTV on all three receivers (even the one that won't come to life). That one is stuck on "Just a few more seconds).

Each receiver has had multiple red button resets.

FYI, other electronics in the house got roached, so I know there was an event: One smoke/CO detector is shot, one garage door opener no longer works (the other one, identical and on the same circuit, does work), the control panel to my sprinker system is fried, and my PS3 turns on but is totally wonky. One LED nightlight fried. It's all so random. 

No outlets show obvious black marks. One room had a smell of overheated electronics, but no fire was found in the house, attic, etc. I have not pinpointed an exact spot of damage. 

At any rate, any better thoughts on the DirecTV aspect? The dealer thinks the LNB could be toast, perhaps. Sorry for the long post!


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

Your home owners insurance should cover the cost of replacing the fried electronics (minus your deductable). Call up D* and have them send a truck. Otherwise, you'll be replacing parts of your system, not really knowing what is good or bad. The service man can test each part and replace only what is necessary.
There was another thread recently on protecting your equipment from lightning.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=193795


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

Expect continuing failures over probably the next 6 mo. Components that were weakened but didn't fail may go down one by one. If there is any question replace it now.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

If you happen to have the Protection Plan, everything related to repairing your system (including replacing the receivers) is covered.

If you don't have the PP, you will most likely have to pay for the tech visit. Replacement of the receivers that are fried should be free, although due to them possibly failing because of an outside factor, it might not be covered under the idea of a defective replacement. I wouldn't necessarily mention the lightning strike in this case. I think if you stated that your power went out and when it came back on the receivers were not working correctly, you should be fine.

By what you are describing, I would think that the issue is with the receivers themselves, so if they are replaced, you should be good to go.

- Merg


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## gilviv (Sep 18, 2007)

I feel for you man, about 2 years ago this month my house was hit by lightning that first hit a Royal palm 20 feet from the house, then hit the roof flashing and wood(setting it a blaze) and then hitting the window frame which has an alarm contact on it that bridged the strike into the alarm system and through the house via the phone line connection of the system. All of the house phone jacks and network connections were affected. I was very lucky to have been home that day to actually witness the hole thing. Yes, I ran out and played fireman after I saw the incredible blinding flash and put out the 3 foot section of roof that ignited, the fire dept. tore up more of the roof section after they arrived just to be safe, but I gotta say, the damage to electronics without surge protectors was generally limited to anything pluged into the alarm/phone/network. Everything in the house for about a few minutes was statically charged and although not damaged TVs and radios would turn off and on by themselves, truely awesome show of nature's power, I geuss I was lucky.


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## Jodean (Jul 17, 2010)

I guess we are assuming you have insurance.

My insurance covered everything that was fried including my Dish 722, which i found out dish did not charge me for, they replaced it for free and i wasn't on the protection plan. 

Another hit took out my lnb 4 years ago and they wouldn't replace that for free. From what ive seen directv may do similar thing by not covering the lnb, but replacing the dvr thats now defective.

I was always told to watch for things to quit working in the next three months. My house was totally opposite. Alot of things didn't work right away, then started working again a week or two later, obviously anything not working with a Hard drive in it is toast, but i had tvs that were all purple and yellow go back to crystal clear picture after two weeks.

Other weird stuff happened like the temp internet line laying on the ground was melted, ground block fried, cable modem was fine but roasted my router. Anything on the phone lines was toast, also weird stuff like my fax machine's phone port quit working while the rest of the machine functions normal, and the usb port on my computer where the fax was plugged into quit working, still using same computer over a year later no other issues.

Good Luck! I was paid out way more than i had lost, but also had replacement cost on everything on my insurance.

Im still using the tv with HDMI inputs all fried just hooked up component, as well as my Home theater projector that lost its component input so now that is hooked HDMI. Most of the stuff works in some way or another, only total loss was the router. Also had phone lines blown out of the wall and the box was all black and the phone lines were melted, insurance would not cover replacing the phone lines......not sure why, but luckily i had a little extra and just cut the ends and replace, all lines work again.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

a couple of questions, and suggestions. First, was the dish the highest thing on your roof capable of conducting electricity? Second, was it grounded with more than the standard Messenger wire from the cable.

I would think about installing a simple device invented by Ben Franklin (the lightning rod) if you get frequent lightning storms. Second, if your ground is nothing more than messenger wire, I would consider adding a larger ground wire and tying that to the House electrical ground.
Other posters may have other ideas, and I am sure they will post them.


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## westom (Aug 9, 2009)

curt8403 said:


> Second, was it grounded with more than the standard Messenger wire from the cable.


National Electrical code requires the dish to be earthed by its own copper ground wire. Most installers do not do that. Therefore many have no (or compromised) surge protection.


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## IMFletcher2 (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks for all the feedback! I called DirecTV and had a great CSR experience. Hopefully the tech that comes out will be just as helpful. I swapped my two HR24's, and the bad one was still bad on the room where the good one worked, and the good one still works in the room where the bad one sat. I think it's the unit, and not the line into the unit. 

CSR is guessing that the dish itself is fine, as I am still getting a signal for the two working boxes. The tech will supposedly look at it closely. The CSR agrees that it sounds like my DECA is shot. 

Sadly, the earliest appointment I could get is on 7/5, but I think we can manage until then.


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## Directvlover (Aug 27, 2007)

boba said:


> Expect continuing failures over probably the next 6 mo. Components that were weakened but didn't fail may go down one by one. If there is any question replace it now.


Yeah...a few years back a neighbor 2 doors down got hit. And a bunch of stuff in my house went all "wonky" immediately. But then just when i thought i had everything working...months after the fact little things started dieing. It was strange. So expect this to happen, especially if it was your house that took the hit.


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## IMFletcher2 (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks, DirecTV lover. Go Big Red! Love the avatar!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

A few years back, there was a huge direct lightening strike *about 3 miles away*.

In our subdivision....ober 40 homes received some form of "power line transferred surge" damage....causing thousands of dollars of loss.

In my case, with UPS on everything (even the garage door openers) as well as multiple ground points, I sustained none, while neighbors across the street and next door lost HDTVs and other equipment from power surges.

In general, I learned there is no absolute way to avoid damage if a lightening strike is at or near your home....but you can take preventative measures to minimize the impact.


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In general, I learned there is no absolute way to avoid damage if a lightening strike is at or near your home.


Oh yes there is....and I do it religiously when I see and hear lightning/thunder: UNPLUG ALL EXPENSIVE ELECTRONICS AND UNPLUG THE PHONE LINE AT THE DEMARC (phone company supplied interface)!!!

PS: Don't forget the multiswitch or any other DirecTV equipment plugged in to an electrical outlet.

I learned my lesson years ago the hard way.


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## RD in Fla (Aug 26, 2007)

ThomasM said:


> Oh yes there is....and I do it religiously when I see and hear lightning/thunder: UNPLUG ALL EXPENSIVE ELECTRONICS AND UNPLUG THE PHONE LINE AT THE DEMARC (phone company supplied interface)!!!
> 
> PS: Don't forget the multiswitch or any other DirecTV equipment plugged in to an electrical outlet.
> 
> I learned my lesson years ago the hard way.


With that approach here in Florida in the summer you would be sure to wear out your equipment from too many reboots, not to mention you'd be exhausted.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

ThomasM said:


> Oh yes there is....and I do it religiously when I see and hear lightning/thunder: UNPLUG ALL EXPENSIVE ELECTRONICS AND UNPLUG THE PHONE LINE AT THE DEMARC (phone company supplied interface)!!!
> 
> PS: Don't forget the multiswitch or any other DirecTV equipment plugged in to an electrical outlet.
> 
> I learned my lesson years ago the hard way.


If you want to get really fussy...even that is no guarantee.

If lightening comes that close to oyur house...it will penetrate the windows and other vunerable areas right through the walls. The odds, however, are exponential greater that would never happen.


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## jadebox (Dec 14, 2004)

RD in Fla said:


> With that approach here in Florida in the summer you would be sure to wear out your equipment from too many reboots, not to mention you'd be exhausted.


And you'd seldom be able to use any of your stuff!

We had lightning hit near our house about ten years ago. The telephone junction box on the side of the house was popped open and charred inside. The cables from our satellite dish to the switch were melted. We lost pretty much everything connected to a phone jack, but no TVs or appliances.

We filed a claim with out insurance and, as someone here mentioned, we continued to find other things that had been zapped, such as our sprinkler system timer, over the next few months. Our insurance company was good and let us file little claims as we discovered new things we had to fix or replace.

As far as I can tell, it didn't affect our rates, but that was before the hurricanes hit us. We were hit by three hurricanes in 2004. Since then, Florida insurance companies are looking for reasons to drop policies, so Clark Howard and others are suggesting that you don't file clams for small losses and use your homeowners insurance only for major things.

Since the lightning hit us just after we moved into our newly-built home, I had this fear that we'd get hit by lightning every year. But, it's been over ten years and we haven't had any more lightning damage.

-- Roger


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If you want to get really fussy...even that is no guarantee.
> 
> If lightening comes that close to oyur house...*it will penetrate the windows* and other vunerable areas right through the walls. The odds, however, are exponential greater that would never happen.


I see you not reading about the subj, westom put some good posts for you http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2807031&postcount=47 ...


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## lpfowlie (Aug 9, 2014)

IMFletcher2 said:


> Hi gang,
> 
> I always get so much good information here, I thought I would try again.
> 
> ...





P Smith said:


> I see you not reading about the subj, westom put some good posts for you http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2807031&postcount=47 ...


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## lpfowlie (Aug 9, 2014)

does the PP cover if you get a lightening strike, one took out my phone nd receiver has not booted up since, only getting the rabbit and the words starting up, hard drive does not seem to be working, you can hear it trying to start up but no go


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

lpfowlie said:


> does the PP cover if you get a lightening strike, one took out my phone nd receiver has not booted up since, only getting the rabbit and the words starting up, hard drive does not seem to be working, you can hear it trying to start up but no go


All receivers are replaced free of charge, you pay S&H if you don't have the PP, free if you do


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

When I had a strike close by it also took out the LNB along with the receiver and 1 TV.


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

Which is why I have the PP. Over the past 10 years, paid off twice.


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jimmie57 said:


> When I had a strike close by it also took out the LNB along with the receiver and 1 TV.


We must have had some kind of really vicious lightning storm while we were away for a week last month. Got home and the first thing I saw was the one ceiling fan that has a remote control was running at full speed. Then, I found an HR that was giving 775 errors and wouldn't work properly. Couldn't see any reason for the 775 and left it alone. I rebooted it yesterday and it's working properly now. Then, I was listening to some show in our main viewing room and I noticed the light on the 500 watt sub-woofer wasn't on. Checked the fuse and it was blown. Replaced it and the woofer is woofing properly. Must have been a really nasty storm.

Rich


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## westom (Aug 9, 2009)

Rich said:


> Got home and the first thing I saw was the one ceiling fan that has a remote control was running at full speed. Then, I found an HR that was giving 775 errors and wouldn't work properly. ...


Apparently you have no protection. So lightning found a better path to earth destructively inside your house. You should learn from the experience. Since the only protection that actually claims to avert such damage connects lightning harmlessly to earth BEFORE it can enter a building.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

westom said:


> National Electrical code requires the dish to be earthed by its own copper ground wire. Most installers do not do that. Therefore many have no (or compromised) surge protection.


NEC does nearly nothing to mitigate lightning damage, rather it is about electrical mains safety (electric shock) Mitigating lightning damage is MUCH more complex and much more expensive than merely following NEC. NEC needs to be followed for the purposes of electrical safety, but has nearly nothing to do with lightning damage avoidance. (and neither do so-called "surge protectors", primarily because they are not installed properly...and installing them properly is ....guess what....a lot of work and more expense.}

The single conductor earthed wire called for by NEC is neither lightning nor surge protection....it is an electrical safety ground, period.


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## westom (Aug 9, 2009)

hasan said:


> The single conductor earthed wire called for by NEC is neither lightning nor surge protection....it is an electrical safety ground, period.


NEC defines the earthing electrode only for human safety. But that same earth ground is essential to lightning and other surge protection. Earth ground must both meet and exceed NEC requirements. NEC is about human safety. Earthing for transistor safety means that earth ground must meet additional requirements not listed by the NEC.

Protection means you always know where hundreds of thosuands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Transistor safey means a single point earth ground (all four words have electrical significance) answers that question.

Code also requires the dish to have its own earth ground. And the cable must be earthed before entering the building. Code says how long that ground connection must be - or shorter. That for human safety. Transistor safety says that ground wire must be shorter, have no sharp bends, no splces, separated from other non-grounding wires, and numerous other and will understood requirements.

The poster had damage because these well proven solutions were not implemented,


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

westom said:


> Apparently you have no protection. So lightning found a better path to earth destructively inside your house. You should learn from the experience. Since the only protection that actually claims to avert such damage connects lightning harmlessly to earth BEFORE it can enter a building.


Right, my home has no ground, I don't own any UPS devices, I have no surge protectors and I'm a complete fool when it comes to anything electrical. (That was sarcasm, I admit it. Seems to be happening to me more often, the urge to be sarcastic, I mean. Just could not resist it.)

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

westom said:


> NEC defines the earthing electrode only for human safety. But that same earth ground is essential to lightning and other surge protection. Earth ground must both meet and exceed NEC requirements. NEC is about human safety. Earthing for transistor safety means that earth ground must meet additional requirements not listed by the NEC.
> 
> Protection means you always know where hundreds of thosuands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Transistor safey means a single point earth ground (all four words have electrical significance) answers that question.
> 
> ...


And so it goes. Another expert on lightning. Just what we needed. Aside from the blown fuse on my subwoofer (just a fuse doing what it's supposed to do), what damage are you talking about? Do you know anything about lightning? Do you understand the power of lightning? Or do you think the NEC prohibits lightning from striking a home? Geez.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hasan said:


> NEC does nearly nothing to mitigate lightning damage, rather it is about electrical mains safety (electric shock) Mitigating lightning damage is MUCH more complex and much more expensive than merely following NEC. NEC needs to be followed for the purposes of electrical safety, but has nearly nothing to do with lightning damage avoidance. (and neither do so-called "surge protectors", primarily because they are not installed properly...and installing them properly is ....guess what....a lot of work and more expense.}
> 
> _*The single conductor earthed wire called for by NEC is neither lightning nor surge protection....it is an electrical safety ground, period.*_


And would be vaporized by a direct lightning strike. But in my case, I think it was just the electrical fields near my home that caused the problems. Lightning striking my house directly would have surely caused a whole lot more "damage" than what I found. Just a freaky storm. Good post, Hasan, as usual.

Rich


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

My sister lost her whole directv system back in May.

They have rooftop lightning rods, that are grounded by thick cables.

Well the WB68, and Slimline 5, is about 2 feet from the thick grounding cable as lightning passed by it from an indirect hit no less, 
it fried the lnb, WB68 and all 3 out of 5 receivers.
All of which are plugged into the exact same brand and model surge protectors.

I also might add the dish, WB68 were all grounded outside to the main ground.
Surge protection is for fluctuations from you power supplier, static electricity, and if your lucky maybe a lightning strike in your neighbors yard.

She lost HR21 , 2 D12s

One D12 and H23 survived. Both
random locations. No real pattern.

After seeing that, nothing protects from lightning except unplugging it.

Plus thing, She got HR44, and 2 clients free of charge, along with all the lightning repairs.

Also for what it's worth, Roku power cords are the worst I've had for taking a power surge.
Make sure you have these in a surge protector at all times.
I've fried 3 of them in a year, before I finally plugged them in one, and never happened again since, Almost 2 years now.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

damondlt said:


> After seeing that, *nothing protects from lightning* except unplugging it.


I am no electrical expert, but I must admit that the Empire State Building here in NYC gets hits multiple times a year by direct lighting strikes and yet they get no damage. How do they do it, I have no idea&#8230;.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

The giant lightning rod.
But you're not putting that on your house.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

damondlt said:


> The giant lightning rod.
> But you're not putting that on your house.


So if you have enough money, there is at least one solution that will mitigate all types of lighting strikes


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

damondlt said:



> *The giant lightning rod*.
> But you're not putting that on your house.


plus using whole metal structure as a giant conductor


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

peds48 said:


> So if you have enough money, there is at least one solution that will mitigate all types of lighting strikes


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1376580/3-lightning-strikes-Empire-State-Building-caught-YouTube-video.html


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

peds48 said:


> So if you have enough money, there is at least one solution that will mitigate all types of lighting strikes


Cost effective measure don't work. 
It's cheaper to replace your all of your equipment than spend millions or billion on empire state building like protection.

My sisters $10,000 system failed at protecting electronic devices.
Lighting rod systems are for keeping your house from burning to the ground. 
Small electronics can't take, what your household power supplies can. 
And while human error exists, you never be 100%.
I'm sure NY city even with lightning protection systems, still suffer power surge damage from time to time.

Pa now require whole home surge protection, and while it helps, it's still not 100%. They can fail just like anything else.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

peds48 said:


> So if you have enough money, there is at least one solution that will mitigate all types of lighting strikes


There's almost nothing that will protect against a direct strike. If that happens, there's not a lightning rod big enough to save all your electronics.

A properly grounded system really protects against the induced voltages from nearby lightning. A direct strike to a house is pretty rare but induced voltages from nearby strikes are the real killers.

IIRC, without ever striking your house, nearby lightning strikes are calculated to reac kV & kA at the service entry from the induced currents in overhead lines.

There's only so much you can do to protect your house against a direct strike. It's those induced surges that you have a good chance of protecting your electronics. In places like the northeast where I am, proper home and dish grounding coupled with plug in surge protectors is usually sufficient. If on higher ground or in areas like the mid-west that have a lot of thunder storms, service panel surge arrestors may be needed. With kA surge protection everyone could benefit from surge arrestors. Still need those UPSs and/or surge protectors at the devices though. 

Mike


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Ham radio operators who have big antennas in their backyard can protect them against direct strikes, but it costs thousands of dollars. If you visit ham sites you can find the details of how they do it. It just isn't worth trying to protect a typical house that's not attracting lightning like a 50' metal tower on your backyard would. The odds of a strike are very low, and the damage is typically limited (unless you're really unlucky and it burns down your house)

If you look at older barns it was common for them to have 2 or 3 lightning rods on the peak of the roof. You didn't have insurance in the 1800s, and there was no fire department coming to your rescue, so if it was hit and burned down, you might lose all your livestock and go bankrupt.

If you look at newer barns instead, they rarely have lightning rods. I always wondered about that, and I did talk to someone who claimed to know the reason why. Rural electrification. When they started putting up poles with well-grounded conductors along roads, and barns generally being not far from the nearest pole, barns were no longer such an attractive lightning target so they quit bothering with lightning rods.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

damondlt said:


> The giant lightning rod.
> But you're not putting that on your house.


That's the problem. Way too expensive to truly safeguard your home. Lightning strikes are a subject that always came up when I was teaching electricity classes. I did a lot of research about it just so I could answer some of those questions and found out that we really don't know all that much about it.

Think of it this way: 4160 volts will "jump" a gap about a quarter inch wide. After that it's an arithmetic progression, 8,000 volts will jump a gap of a half inch and 16,000 volts will jump a gap of one inch. Now imagine how far lightning travels to ground (or is it, lightning travels from ground? Never did find a good answer to that question) and try to figure out the voltages. Pretty high, right? And pretty powerful. You'd have to spend a fortune to protect a house.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> plus using whole metal structure as a giant conductor


Exactly!

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Rich said:


> That's the problem. Way too expensive to truly safeguard your home. Lightning strikes are a subject that always came up when I was teaching electricity classes. I did a lot of research about it just so I could answer some of those questions and found out that we really don't know all that much about it.
> 
> Think of it this way: 4160 volts will "jump" a gap about a quarter inch wide. After that it's an arithmetic progression, 8,000 volts will jump a gap of a half inch and 16,000 volts will jump a gap of one inch. *Now imagine how far lightning travels to ground (or is it, lightning travels from ground? Never did find a good answer to that question)* and try to figure out the voltages. Pretty high, right? And pretty powerful. You'd have to spend a fortune to protect a house.
> 
> Rich


The answer is both. The potential difference from cloud to ground lowers from the cloud, a stepped leader, and an upward streamer from the ground (object to be "struck") and they actually meet somewhere in between. When they do there is a return stroke that runs skyward. The return stroke is the visible part we see.

Mike


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> Ham radio operators who have big antennas in their backyard can protect them against direct strikes, but it costs thousands of dollars. If you visit ham sites you can find the details of how they do it. It just isn't worth trying to protect a typical house that's not attracting lightning like a 50' metal tower on your backyard would. The odds of a strike are very low, and the damage is typically limited (unless you're really unlucky and it burns down your house)
> 
> If you look at older barns it was common for them to have 2 or 3 lightning rods on the peak of the roof. You didn't have insurance in the 1800s, and there was no fire department coming to your rescue, so if it was hit and burned down, you might lose all your livestock and go bankrupt.
> 
> If you look at newer barns instead, they rarely have lightning rods. I always wondered about that, and I did talk to someone who claimed to know the reason why. Rural electrification. When they started putting up poles with well-grounded conductors along roads, and barns generally being not far from the nearest pole, barns were no longer such an attractive lightning target so they quit bothering with lightning rods.


Like me, for example. Hence all my comments about grounding, NEC and lightning mitigation. :righton:


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

peds48 said:


> So if you have enough money, there is at least one solution that will mitigate all types of lighting strikes


That is close, but I would say "most likely to mitigate"...

With lightning, there is no absolute certainty, but i have seen towers take hundreds of direct hits with no damage to connected equipment at all.

Then again, I've seen one hit/near hit take out an entire rack of well protected equipment. Perfection is hard to attain, so it becomes more of a probability issue, or for most of us, the best practice we can afford, while not deluding ourselves about our "real" level of protection

There are right ways to do things, and they do work (mostly). They require great effort and significant expense. None of what we see "done" on these forums is even close, and most claims of "grounding" and "protection" and "safety" as seen here, are utter rubbish. Some things people do are better than nothing, but that's as far as I'll go, In several cases, what people have done is actually worse than nothing.

Electrical safety grounds (NEC), have little or nothing to do with lightning mitigation, which is an RF problem, not an electrical shock problem. Until people "get" this, and solve the problem from an RF point of view, their equipment has little or no protection, period, no matter how many thin/thick wires they have or how many surge suppressors or ups's they have. It's all illusion or more accurately, self-delusion. Until the RF problem is solved, little has been accomplished other than the illusion of safety, where it is completely unwarranted. Electrical shock may have been prevented, but that has nothing to do with lightning mitigation.

The answer is a well implemented single point ground. Polyphaser has some excellent white papers on the topic.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Ham radio operators who have big antennas in their backyard can protect them against direct strikes, but it costs thousands of dollars. If you visit ham sites you can find the details of how they do it. It just isn't worth trying to protect a typical house that's not attracting lightning like a 50' metal tower on your backyard would. The odds of a strike are very low, and the damage is typically limited (unless you're really unlucky and it burns down your house)
> 
> If you look at older barns it was common for them to have 2 or 3 lightning rods on the peak of the roof. You didn't have insurance in the 1800s, and there was no fire department coming to your rescue, so if it was hit and burned down, you might lose all your livestock and go bankrupt.
> 
> If you look at newer barns instead, they rarely have lightning rods. I always wondered about that, and I did talk to someone who claimed to know the reason why. Rural electrification. When they started putting up poles with well-grounded conductors along roads, and barns generally being not far from the nearest pole, barns were no longer such an attractive lightning target so they quit bothering with lightning rods.


Those barns may not have caught fire but they also weren't filled with electronics and appliances. :grin:

Mike


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I probably shouldn't write this to not jinx our installation, but I have a friend that bought / dismantled / moved / re-installed a 125' Fire Tower to his property.

Knowing he wanted cameras and wifi on the tower, I specified a grounding grid to be installed at the base of the tower and a 2/0 stranded copper that we extended 10' above the tower and 'splayed' (spread the strands) the top foot and bonded the copper to the tower all the way to the grounding grid at the foundation.

In this area, a lot of the city's metal poles have the 'splayed' brush-like installations on them.

While we have had the breaker trip at the base of the tower, we haven't lost any of the wifi or IP camera units on the tower or routers/modems in a trailer at the base of the tower.

However, the caretakers house is ~1000' from the tower and several storms have killed the same type of wifi / router installation there. The 'protection' mounted on the tower seems to have the 'cone of protection' (approximately a 60 degree circle around the tower.)

We certainly can't put up a tower for some 'protection' and in our neighborhoods we're just playing the odds that it'll hit somewhere else. A nearby strike can be catastrophic or just cause damage that shows up months from now.

If you're interested in lightning, check out http://www.lightningmaps.org/realtime?lang=en


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Mike Bertelson said:


> There's almost nothing that will protect against a direct strike. If that happens, there's not a lightning rod big enough to save all your electronics.


So you are implying that folks that have electronic equipment at the Empire State Building must change PC, printers, etc every so often since the Empire State Building is basically a lighting magnet due to its antenna "sticking out"?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

peds48 said:


> So you are implying that folks that have electronic equipment at the Empire State Building must change PC, printers, etc every so often since the Empire State Building is basically a lighting magnet due to its antenna "sticking out"?


Clearly there are things to be done to protect against direct strikes, as my prior comments speak to. Saying nothing can be done to protect against a direct strike is demonstrably false. On the other hand saying anything can absolutely and in every case prevent damage to electronic equipment from a direct hit on a tower is just as false. It's all about best practice and probabilities.


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## westom (Aug 9, 2009)

Defined was protection categorized by the IEEE with numbers. Effective protection from direct lightning strikes is only 99.5% t0 99.9% effective. Unfortunately, emotion inspired by advertising and hearsay wants something that blocks or stops lightning. Those are best called scams. Another solution, found in every telco CO, means about 100 surges with each storm. And no computer damage. Because best protection does not foolishly let that current have any reason to be inside the building.

For homeonwers, lightning rods protect a structure. Proper earthing of a 'whole house' protector protects appliances. Both are installed to make even direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Unfortunately, many are only educated by salesmen. Suffer damage with obscenely overpriced magic boxes. Then assume a completely different and superior solution (about $1 per protected appliance) does not exist.

Everyone has two choices. To learn about technology proven even 100 years ago so that direct lightning strikes need not cause damage. Or listen to hearsay that recommends products (ie from APC, Belkin, Panamax, Monster) that do not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges.

Read spec numbers. Two completely different devices unfortunately share a common name. Many who know only from speculation, their feelings, and 'invented' numbers automatically know routine protection cannot possibly exist. Even though it existed even 100 years ago. Empire State Building with typically 23 direct strikes annually is a perfect example.

Your telco's CO suffers maybe 100 surges with each storm. So your entire town is without phone service for four days after each storm while they replace their $multi-million computer? Of course not. Such damage is so rare that it would become a major news story. Protection from direct lightning strikes is routine once one learns what does protection. BTW, a protector does not do protection.


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## westom (Aug 9, 2009)

Rich said:


> Right, my home has no ground,


Your house may have no safety ground. But all homes must have earth ground. Earth ground was even required in 1930 homes. Nobody said anything about the safety ground in wall receptacles. That is irrelvant here. You have a earth ground problems. At least one wire has entered the building without proper connection to earth ground either by a hardwire or via some protector. That is why lightning went hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances. A superor solution (that you clearly do not have) typically costs about $1 per protected appliance.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

westom said:


> Your house may have no safety ground. But all homes must have earth ground. Earth ground was even required in 1930 homes. Nobody said anything about the safety ground in wall receptacles. That is irrelvant here. You have a earth ground problems. At least one wire has entered the building without proper connection to earth ground either by a hardwire or via some protector. That is why lightning went hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances. A superor solution (that you clearly do not have) typically costs about $1 per protected appliance.


You might want to go back and reread the post you refer to. I clearly admitted my post was sarcasm. Of course I have a well grounded house and many UPS devices.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> The answer is both. The potential difference from cloud to ground lowers from the cloud, a stepped leader, and an upward streamer from the ground (object to be "struck") and they actually meet somewhere in between. When they do there is a return stroke that runs skyward. The return stroke is the visible part we see.
> 
> Mike


I'll stand by what I wrote. I did know about the streamers but I don't see any indication of them reaching out very far. Here's what I believe is a decent explanation of how lightning works. _*Link*_.


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## westom (Aug 9, 2009)

Rich said:


> I'll stand by what I wrote. I did know about the streamers but I don't see any indication of them reaching out very far. Here's what I believe is a decent explanation of how lightning works. _*Link*_.


Unfortunately that only explains how lightning is constructed. It does not explain the electrical nature as seen by appliances and structures. The actual lightning current occurs in microseconds. A lightning bolt is constructed long before that and may take tens or hundreds of milliseconds. You can see millisecond events. You cannot see microsecond events. Damage occurs during those microseconds after all those streamers are constructed.


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## bud-- (Sep 26, 2011)

westom said:


> Defined was protection categorized by the IEEE with numbers. Effective protection from direct lightning strikes is only 99.5% t0 99.9% effective.
> 
> For homeonwers, lightning rods protect a structure. Proper earthing of a 'whole house' protector protects appliances.
> 
> Everyone has two choices. To learn about technology proven even 100 years ago so that direct lightning strikes need not cause damage. Or listen to hearsay that recommends products (ie from APC, Belkin, Panamax, Monster) that do not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges.


The IEEE 99.5% to 99.9% numbers are for lighting rods and basic protection from a direct strike to the building.

----------------------------------------
'Whole house' prjotectors at the service panel are a real good idea.
But from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

Service panel protectors do not by themselves prevent high voltages from developing between power and phone/coax wires. The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires.

The author of the NIST surge guide looked at the surge current that could come in on residential power wires. The maximum with any reasonable probability of occurring was 10,000A per wire. That is based on a 100,000A lighting strike to a utility pole adjacent to the house in typical urban overhead distribution. Only 5% of strikes are stronger, and the strike was very close.

Service panel protectors with much higher ratings are readily available and are very likely to protect anything connected to only power wires from a very near very strong lightning strike. They do not necessarily protect equipment that also has a connection like phone or dish.

----------------------------------
"do not even claim to protect..."

Nonsense. Some plug-in protectors even have protected equipment warranties.

Westom thinks plug-in protectors can not work. Both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say they are effective. But all interconnected equipment needs to connect to the same protector and all external wires need to go through the protector. Protection is by limiting the voltage from each wire to the ground at the protector. Examples of connection are at the end of the IEEE surge guide.

If there is no service panel protector, at about 6,000V there is arc-over from the service panel busbars to the enclosure. After the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure/ground/neutral are connected to the earthing system that dumps most of the incoming surge energy to earth.

The author of the NIST surge guide investigated how much energy might be absorbed in a MOV in a plug-in protector. Branch circuits were 10m and longer, and the surge on incoming power wires was up to 10,000A (the maximum that has any reasonable probability of occurring as above). The maximum energy at the MOV was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less.

The other element of protection is a single-point-ground. The entry protectors for phone, cable, dish, TV antenna, ... must connect with a short ground wire to a common connection point on the earthing system for the power system. The distance from the common connection point to the power system N-G connection also needs to be short. An example of a ground wire that is far too long is in the IEEE surge guide starting page 30. In the event of large surge current to the earthing system the building "ground" may rise thousands of volts above 'absolute' earth potential. Much of the protection is that all wires rise together.

A remaining hole in protection are coax entry protectors, which are likely just a ground block that allows the shield to be tied to the earthing system. The IEEE surge guide says "there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2-4 kV." And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning."


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

bud-- said:


> A remaining hole in protection are coax entry protectors, which are likely just a ground block that allows the shield to be tied to the earthing system. The IEEE surge guide says "there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2-4 kV." And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning."


You can buy devices like these to limit the voltage between the core and the sheath and add additional protection beyond what a ground block offers. They work fine on satellite, I have four on the incoming lines from my SL5 and they don't affect the signal. I've also got one on the line from my antenna and a similar one on my incoming CATV line. For what they cost versus the value of all the TVs and other gear I have, I figure "can't hurt".

These are GTD devices, so when overvoltage occurs it causes an arc that shunts it to ground. So for maximum effectiveness you'd want to have them installed as near as possible to where your coax is grounded.

http://www.summitsource.com/eagle-coaxial-surge-suppressor-line-surgender-spike-protector-se10-2300-satellite-dish-aerial-antenna-signal-video-coaxial-cable-lightning-strike-electrical-part-p-7624.html


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## bud-- (Sep 26, 2011)

slice1900 said:


> You can buy devices like these to limit the voltage between the core and the sheath and add additional protection beyond what a ground block offers. They work fine on satellite, I have four on the incoming lines from my SL5 and they don't affect the signal. I've also got one on the line from my antenna and a similar one on my incoming CATV line. For what they cost versus the value of all the TVs and other gear I have, I figure "can't hurt".
> 
> These are GTD devices, so when overvoltage occurs it causes an arc that shunts it to ground. So for maximum effectiveness you'd want to have them installed as near as possible to where your coax is grounded.
> 
> http://www.summitsource.com/eagle-coaxial-surge-suppressor-line-surgender-spike-protector-se10-2300-satellite-dish-aerial-antenna-signal-video-coaxial-cable-lightning-strike-electrical-part-p-7624.html


Good way to plug the "hole".

If I remember right, there was a proposal for the 2011 NEC that almost passed that would have required entry protectors for coax include surge protection.

I looked up what is in the 2014 NEC and there are 2 changes for antennas (dish) (but not cable):

- IF there is an entry surge protector, it must be "listed", and grounded like the ground blocks are. (It would need a ground connection terminal on it.)

- entry ground blocks now have to be "listed" or part of a listed assembly


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## westom (Aug 9, 2009)

slice1900 said:


> You can buy devices like these to limit the voltage between the core and the sheath and add additional protection beyond what a ground block offers. They work fine on satellite, I have four on the incoming lines from my SL5 and they don't affect the signal.


There are many reasons why these are necessary, maybe completely unnecessary, and often trobulesome when not properly designed (so inexpensive).. For example, voltage difference on the center core is virtually zero due to an engineering concept best explained any another industry protessional:



> Coax, inside, rejects common-mode propagation of lightning energy. Coax, outside, needs good grounding to make a good path around (bypass for) protected equipment.


Does not matter if it worked on your system that has a stronger signal. What matters is bandwidht and dB losses (specification numbers). These cheaper devices can result in noise and pixelation on higher frequency channels especially duing inclement weather.

More important than a protector is what all responsible sources state. Quality of and connection to earth ground is major. For example, a connection from cable must be low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet', no sharp wire bends, etc) to not any earth grounhd. It must be single point earth ground.

A sales promoter for plug-in protectors would even misrepresent what professional sources such as the NIST state quite bluntly.



> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting surges to earth. The best surge protector in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.


A major increase in surge protection (even if the house has 100 plug-in protectors) is a connection from that cable to single point earth ground. That will create somewhere between 99.5% to 99.9% of protection (also numbers from industry standards). Increase that protection by adding additional devices such as the coax protector or plug-in power bar. But without that earth ground, then those additional devices are viturally useless. In the case of power bars, have even created house fires.

Again, an honest recommendation always says where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Plug-in protectors avoid that entirely since those devices are for another type of surge that typically causes no damage. What makes that coax protector better? Making a connection from it to single point earth ground every foot shorter. Impedance of a connection to earth is critical for averting the typically destructive surge - as a quote from the NIST bluntly states.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

westom said:


> Does not matter if it worked on your system that has a stronger signal. What matters is bandwidht and dB losses (specification numbers). These cheaper devices can result in noise and pixelation on higher frequency channels especially duing inclement weather.


It is rated to 2300 MHz, and while I can't remember the insertion loss, it was less than a db so pretty much irrelevant unless one's setup is running on the raggedy edge.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> It is rated to 2300 MHz, and while I can't remember the insertion loss, it was less than a db so pretty much irrelevant unless one's setup is running on the raggedy edge.


I have seen issues with these. When ever I see them (very, very rarely) I remove them. AFAIK, they are not DirecTV® approved.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

peds48 said:


> I have seen issues with these. When ever I see them (very, very rarely) I remove them. AFAIK, they are not DirecTV® approved.


Oh I have no doubt they're not Directv approved. That's probably not the only thing in my setup that's not Directv approved 

If you've seen "issues" with them, they may have taken a hit that damaged them, and in doing so possibly protected some equipment behind them. Or perhaps they were another type designed for cable/OTA frequency range rather than satellite, and caused high frequency loss.


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## bud-- (Sep 26, 2011)

westom said:


> voltage difference on the center core is virtually zero
> 
> A sales promoter for plug-in protectors would even misrepresent what professional sources such as the NIST state quite bluntly.
> 
> ...


In my last post I forgot to include links to very good guides on surge protection.
One is from the NIST:
http://pml.nist.gov/spd-anthology/files/Surges_happen!.pdf

The other is from the IEEE and is more technical:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

coax "voltage difference ... is virtually zero"
Not according to the IEEE surge guide, which I quoted.

"sales promoter..." is aimed at me. I have nothing to do with the surge protection industry other than using some surge protectors. If westom had valid arguments he wouldn't have to attack other people.

"NIST state quite bluntly...", and quote
Immediately following westom's quote from the NIST surge guide is a list of surge protectors that can be used.
Number 6 is "Plug-in...The easiest of all for anyone to do. The only question is 'Which to choose?' "

"99.5%...."
As previously stated this is for lightning rods, which are not particularly relevant here.

"without that earth ground..."
Everyone is in favor of earthing power systems and entry protectors.
The NEC has required power systems be earthed since time began.

plug-in causes "fires...."
UL has, since 1998, required thermal disconnects for overheating MOVs. You should only buy surge protector listed under UL1449.

"hundreds of thousands of joules..."
As I already explained, an investigation by the NIST surge expert found the maximum energy that would be absorbed from even a very large power line surge was 35 joules. Westom does not dispute that. He just ignores it. Just like he ignores what the IEEE and NIST surge guides say. Both say plug-in protectors are effective.

Westom is on a crusade against plug-in protectors. Facts get in the way.

plug-in "devices are for another type of surge"
Nonsense, as evidenced by the max 35 joule number for very strong surges.


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