# Another week and still no L113 for 721



## Ronster

Getting this software out has been a total joke.:rant:


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## UpOnTheMountain

oh .... but the anticipation !!! 
I'm very excited that the 721 team is actively working adding major improvements to our receiver!!!


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## sampatterson

Better the wait then what some of the DP owners are going through with their new software...


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## Mike D-CO5

And the Dishplayer saga continues... "like sands in an hourglass, These are the Days of our lives"


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## Jacob S

If they are goofing up on the software as bad as I have been hearing on the 112 then what is there to look forward to on 113? Heck it may not be what you think it is, just another software update to prepare more for the big one later being delayed as a result of the problems experienced lately.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Jacob if people are having problems with L1.12 then they were having them with L1.10 as no new code was added, only some data stream changes (which may or may not be security related)

I bet Dish could just issue a release without changing anything but the version number and people would say the new software contains new bugs, when in reality it is the same damn software they were already running.

Sometimes I wonder what some of the people here are drinking and smoking when they complaign about new bugs (And I wonder why I wasn't offered any)


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## Guest

Scott, I don't aggree with you. My 721 has not worked this bad for quite awhile. It did start the day L1.12 came out. When the PVR needs to fire on two timers at the same time the 721 shuts down and reboots. It has happened several times over the past few days. As much as I want the new features I want E* to get it's act together first. Also the remote has been bad since L1.10. Every time you push a remote button for the first time the 721 will not respond until you hit the button again. If you reboot the 721 it works fine for a few days but then acts up again until rebooting again (btw, all new batteries).


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## Jacob S

I thought the updates were to fix some of the bugs to get ready for the big update. I know that these problems have been happening for a while. I just wonder why they have not been noticed until a little while back.


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## Danbo

Sorry if I make it seem like a new bug. But for me, the black picture ONLY started appearing after L1.12. Yet I've heard it happened to someone else before that. I just find it a strange coincidence that problems seem to be more abundant after a release. Then again, this 721 is being sent back (once the replacement gets here). Perhaps it's not the software for any of these issues, but extremely bad luck in the manufacturing process.

And what's your take on Advanced Tech telling pretty much EVERYONE that they're the first to state there's a problem?


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## Bill D

Except for the occasional X screen reboot which has been around since I can't remember which ver (the slo motion one), I've been pretty solid. Yes when it reboots it doesn't react very quickly for the first few minutes.

I haven't called advanced tech for a while, but they need to get with the program and realize that many people have the same problem


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## Randy_B

Scott, we were also told that E* never touched the screen saver either, but now we know the dummies commented it out. What E* sez (even to you) and what they have done do not always match up. In other words, they have been known to (and proven) to lie.

No reflection on you, but on E* yes.


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## EvanS

don't kill me, but....my pixelization had dropped by at least 75% and I have not had ANY "acquiring sat on tuner 1" since 1.12 came down the pipe.
Although I REFUSE to believe that 1.12 was the fix for my problems, I find this very reminiscent of the way the 501 acted. Many having x problems, some having y poeblems, a bunch not having any problems (unitl after they announce on this board that they have no problems).

Almost like we have several differnt batches of harward using different yet "compatible" chipsets or something, cuz the software HAS to be the same

sigh.....


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## UpOnTheMountain

It sounds like we have two opposing facts :

1. The software did not change anything that could have caused bugs to show up.

2. People are seeing bugs show up.

Two simple but "proven facts"

So if the software did not change. ... Then what did change that might allow for bugs to show up ?

Is it possible that the act of downloading and installing the update ... is itself the culprit that leaves some units that are in certain states more prone to buggy behavior?

Now I have no idea how this software is actually programmed, but I can imagine a number of instances (I've been a programmer for twenty years) that would allow the update process itself to create an instability -RELATIVE- to the unique state that the individual units may be in.


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## Big Bob

> _Originally posted by UpOnTheMountain _
> * I can imagine a number of instances (I've been a programmer for twenty years) that would allow the update process itself to create an instability -RELATIVE- to the unique state that the individual units may be in. *


now there is something to think about! Hmmm.....


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## Jacob S

Either that or people are finally seeing the problems the unit is having, but why all at once instead of gradually? I have seen the problems before now, although I have seen the receiver reboot a lot more since these last updates but that may not mean that the updates caused them.


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## Big Bob

Still thinking....

Somewhere I recall a note that the unit will overwrite any changes made to the OS. If you go in and muck around on the hard drive, any changes you make will be overwritten. 

Makes me wonder if there is some way to force a complete OS reinstall. If there was, I wonder if this might clean up the pixelation problem.


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## UpOnTheMountain

Big Bob,
Interesting.

Makes me think more too ... 

If something outside of the "software" is corrupt or in a non-ideal state, then that makes me think about something that is more dynamic and more likely to have a unique state. So maybe one of these items :

1. pointers to the recorded events 
2. pointers to timers
3. pointers to preferences

(whether they are actually file based pointers, index records, database relationships, or some other semi static construct doesn't matter)

Since each of these things are probably polled at set intervals, then maybe something like this could occur ...

While polling/reading the list (of pointers) the software logic encounters the non-ideal state and must go through real time error/logic routines for extra program iterations and load to resolve what it considers an issue. This extra "load" could cause just enough of a timing problem to cause a potential frame sync issue...

anyways ....

Pure speculation, but an interesting thought none-the-less.


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## gwynnebaer

It's only been 4 months and one day since Scott's original post about (gulp) L1.10 (now L1.13). In software lifecycle terms, that's not really a long time. Scott can certainly be forgiven for providing us with a really nice snapshot of the new features. The fact that we all want the new features (as well as critical bug fixes) is not really the issue; it just boils down to dissatisfaction with being in the dark.

To give you an idea of what I mean, I work in the software industry, where we provide patches and updates of our software to our customers. We have an internal and external schedule for software releases, and we do everything we can to keep them in sync. However, stuff happens and deadlines slip due to unforseen issues.

(begin rant)
*The big difference is that we let our customers know what's happening, and remain transparent about release schedules*. If we didn't, we would be villified by our customer base and our competitors. It's just not right for E* to keep us in the dark. This, more than anything else, must stop.
(end rant).


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## sneakymoose

> _Originally posted by Danbo _
> *Sorry if I make it seem like a new bug. But for me, the black picture ONLY started appearing after L1.12. Yet I've heard it happened to someone else before that.*


This appeared for me in L1.11. It seems less frequent in L1.12, but only because I don't change channels that often. For me, this problem is occurring when I change channels in L1.12, whereas in L1.11 it also occurred frequently when fast forwarding or rewinding (instead of a black screen, you get a still image with no audio; and in both live content mode as well as previously recorded).


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## johnsbin

The 721 claims to be running DishLinux but if you ask me, it must be using Windows 98 because every time you reboot something else isn't working right.


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## Jacob S

Thats what happens when Dish operates it vs someone else.


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## fishbulb

Any new news on when/if Dish is going to get this out? 

Scott first posted info about "L1.10" on Feb. 7th and now its almost July. :shrug:


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## Scott Greczkowski

I posted yesterday that the 721 team has been reading your posts here very carefully and have added some of your suggestions over the past few weeks.

These new features need testing now, and it was not worth putting these upgrades into their own seperate update.

Believe me its coming.  And you can now see how much time they spend beta testing these things.


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## Danbo

Being in software development I learned a lot. Including the fact that when you have a new version coming out, and you're doing all the testing, you do NOT add more stuff to the list. Once the code is frozen for testing, the only thing that changes are problems found during the test. I found that customers were satisfied more if fixes were released on a timely basis, not necessarily grouped all together. I only wish Dish learned that concept.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Actually the additions have been improvements to the code as suggested by many posters (IE better Triple Conflict Screen Error screen, the ability to skip a scheduled recording and other things as well.

The figured they might as well correct something now then release it and get complaints about it later.


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## Big Bob

> _Originally posted by Danbo _
> *Being in software development I learned a lot. Including the fact that when you have a new version coming out, and you're doing all the testing, you do NOT add more stuff to the list. Once the code is frozen for testing, the only thing that changes are problems found during the test. I found that customers were satisfied more if fixes were released on a timely basis, not necessarily grouped all together. I only wish Dish learned that concept. *


gotta agree with Danbo on this one. When the freeze comes, that is it. If you want more, you have to wait until the next version.


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## pjm877

Big Bob said:


> gotta agree with Danbo on this one. When the freeze comes, that is it. If you want more, you have to wait until the next version.


I too have to chime in, I build software code at work and when the freeze comes that is it... no if's and butt's. The added code depending on the numbers of lines can add weeks to months of new regression testing and then retesting by the BETA testers. No new function/changes after the beta. But, this product (a PVR) is not as focused on as a Computer operating software is. 
One of our tests is three days long running of 10+ computers 24/7 on just one item, one failure and we have find the problem , fix the problem and start all over on the testing.

We have some of the tightest rules, to go through and even then sometimes things don't work out as you would like them to. This is where the bugs seem to creep in.

You come to a point in the process you say to yourself, "Yes it is a bug, but not worth holding up the product release date"

I know Dish has not given us a stake in the sand release date for this "Enhancement Release" SO we what are we all gripping about. It is not like DISK and skipped a promised release date.

The code will be released when it is good and ready. I just wished they would release a listing of the up coming new enhancements/functions, and give us a, "Coming in the X Qtr" and hold to that... no other new functions... do that later. Giving me something to look onward too.

I know "service releases" can come anytime to fix major bugs and lump lots of the smaller ones together.. some to bugs I did not even know I had 

From what I see looking from the outside we the 721 users should be happy. If this was Microsoft or some other Co.'s they would change the name and ask us to pay more for the new functions even though we out in the world thought it should have been there in the first place.

ya'll have a nice weekend..


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## Ronster

And the joke continues. But we are all the jokers for buying this thing and after one year it still does not do what it was advertised to do. What a laugh, on us. And Dish is laughing all the way to the bank with our $$$ for this piece of junk. (and I am being polite) :bang


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## Big Bob

Ronster said:


> And the joke continues. But we are all the jokers for buying this thing and after one year it still does not do what it was advertised to do. What a laugh, on us. And Dish is laughing all the way to the bank with our $$$ for this piece of junk. (and I am being polite) :bang


Exactly what was it advertised to do that it now doesn't?


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## Neil Derryberry

It does everything it was advertised to do. Sounds like you place too much faith in speculation.


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## Ronster

Are you all forgeting internet capability. How soon they forget.


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## Guest

It never ceases to amaze me how many people use this board to complain endlessly. I have had a 721 since 10/02 and have been very happy with it. It is more stable now than it was then and they have added new features (slow motion, etc) to the receiver which was not on the original spec sheet for the receiver. They are giving us these features 'for free'...patience - patience. The fact that it is over-the-air upgradeable is a bonus and shouldn't be taken for granted.

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely looking forward to future software revisions that add more capability, and improve stability, but I don't lose sleep over it. What I have now works VERY well. I have recommended Dish PVRs to family members and friends and at least one has bought a 508 and has been very happy with it.

From my perspective, the more complaints we see here, the less likely Dish is to give us information about any of the new features they plan to add. We all are excited to see what new things they have planned and then some of us harp on them when it isn't available when they initially thought it would. If I were them, I'd just keep it under wraps until the last minute (24 hours before widespread distribution). I personally want to know more about what they plan on doing to upgrade these receivers so I encourage Dish to continue sharing information with Scott so he can share it with us and ignore the complainers. It seems that no matter what, you'll never make some people happy.

Obviously you have the right to complain. You also have the right to buy another product. I am just taking advantage here of my right to voice a counter opinion to the complainers. I am of the opinion that there are many board lurkers like myself who feel the same way, we just tend not to be vocal about it.


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## Jacob S

Patience and time. There can only be so many software upgrades and people should not expect a software upgrade constantly. They have had several upgrades this past year since this receiver has been out. If a software version is promised to be out then thats a different story. Because we get information first here before some other pvr customers do then we get more impatient. Those that are a hobbiest would be more likely to complain.


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## Ronster

Good way to lose friends is recommend these pieces of junk.


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## jazzis

Neil Derryberry said:


> It does everything it was advertised to do. Sounds like you place too much faith in speculation.


Actually apart of the big hype was open tv and The internet. For the $$$ The darn thing didnt even come with the wireless Keyboard they were showing with it.


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## Jacob S

They covered up the internet access feature on the box with a sticker. This had been discussed I had thought on tech and or consumer chats that it would be added eventually. Even if we do get the internet access capability there is still the issue with having to use earthlink or your own provider.


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## Inaba

Well, I don't know anything about an internet feature (nor is it something I care about) -- but  I can say that the 721 does everything it was *advertised* to do. I don't feel that the 721 was adverstised or marketed falsely by any means.

It's buggy as hell (I've already had a crash during recording), though... and it's lacking a lot of the "standard" PVR features. The U/I is poor, and recording organization is non-existant. Aside from the crashing, the 721 could be improved fairly easily. Hopefully the next software load will see a good number of these improvements.

In it's current form, though, I would definitely *NOT* reccomend the 721 to anyone I know... unless I was never going to see them again (IE - accountable for my actions). Is it a horrible unit? No... but it's definitely not ready for prime-time.


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## Doug E

It was advertised as having Open TV (weather, etc) which has yet to be realized. I "upgraded" from my 501 thinking I was going to get everything the 501 offered plus two tuners. 

What a crock!


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## Jacob S

I tell people how wonderful PVR is yet I have not strongly recommended the Dish product due to the problems I have had on my own and the problems others have seen. I would have thought that they would have gotten the 721 to work better without some of the issues after having released the 7100, 7200, 501, and 508. Since the 921 has been planned and probably engineered a while back it may have some of these same characteristics we are seeing now. 

I also think about computers and the things that can go wrong with them and consider the pvr as some form of computer and I know how they can get so a little tolerance should be allowed.


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## BobMurdoch

The 721 is their current (6000 is dropped remember) top of the line receiver.

If so, then:

1. Why no weather?
2. Why no internet (less important for most, but I miss surfing on my bigscreen TV like I did with my Dishplayer)?
3. Why No DishHome
4. Why no Keyboard with the remote buttons to the side?
5. Why no OpenTV?
6: Why no Enhanced TV features (group this in with the internet question)?

Other than the 2 tuners (admittedly a big plus), the PIP, and the larger hard drive, it has been a step backward from the Dishplayer (usability wise ie. search capabilities, the ability to banish unwatched channels from the guides, etc.).


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## Jacob S

Because the receiver has not been out as long as the other ones have been. Also there are fewer customers with the 721 than the other ones as well.


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## oblio98

I'm happy with my 721. It does what I need it to - record shows I might like to see, and play them back. The "rewinding" of live TV is a hoot!

As far as the rest of the bells and whistles, I really would not use them. For the Internet, I;d rather use a PC. As far as weather and games and stuff, that would be nice, but I would rather have what I have then just a box that gave me weather.

Still, it may be expensive, but for me.............it works! (And even my wife can use it!!!)

:-jon


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## bills976

Is it just me or....

Does the 721 not have name-based recordings?
Does the 721 cost nearly $300 more than a DirecTiVo?
Does the 721 offer no Hard Drive upgrade capability?
Does the 721 have more software updates to fix bugs than the series 1 DirecTiVos, which have been out far longer than the 721?

I had a 501. It was very stable and I was happy with it. Then I got a Directivo. There's literally no comparison. I haven't had to restart my receiver once; no smartcard pulls at all. I thought it was "normal" to pull the smartcard once a month. Yes, Directivos have drive failures. However, looking at the whole picture HD failures occur in a small % of Directivos, and these can be fixed by a simple, albeit expensive HD replacement from weaknees.

Just answer me one question. Strictly from a hardware standpoint, why is the 721 a superior product to the DSR7000 or the HDVR2? If Directv ever gets off their proverbial butt and activates HMO, that'll make them that much better than the 721. Why would a consumer choose the 721 over the Directivo or even the 508? I've demoed a 721 and quite honestly I prefer the 508's functionality. I hope for Dish's sake that the 921 is an improvement over the 721 as the amount of problems with this system seems to be unacceptable.


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## DmitriA

I agree. The 721 is way overpriced for the number of features it offers and that's not even considering all the bugs... I've become fairly disappointed in the product. The nearly 5 month long wait for a software update that will actually add new features to it, the increasing number of bugs and instability with each software "bugfix", the almost lost hope that it will ever get the initially promised Internet capability and OpenTV emulator are the reasons.


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## Big Bob

DmitriA said:


> I agree. The 721 is way overpriced for the number of features it offers and that's not even considering all the bugs... I've become fairly disappointed in the product. The nearly 5 month long wait for a software update that will actually add new features to it, the increasing number of bugs and instability with each software "bugfix", the almost lost hope that it will ever get the initially promised Internet capability and OpenTV emulator are the reasons.


I find it fascinating how if you repeat something enough, people will believe it at the truth.

The facts:
The number of software bugs has gone down, not increased with each software update.
The unit has become more stable with each release, not that it was very unstable before. 
It has been too long for a software release, and I think that Dish is learning a lesson on this one. Don't add features after code freeze. 
No one has been able to list more than 6 major bugs. I can only think of about 3-4. And none of these EVER bother me.

This is NOT a "buggy" unit.

There have been a few units who have had a tuner go bad on them. The reason is still unclear and it seems to be rare. And Dish has now acknowledged the problem and is replacing units that have this problem.

Some people have issues with with the user interface. I have no complaints with it. Most everything is very clear and easy and intuitive to get to. There are a couple of places where it could be improved, but all in all, the UI is fine.

Most people who own a 721 are happy with it.

The 721 is a fine unit and I would not hesitate to recommend it to someone.


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## Jacob S

There are benefits and cons to each of the receivers. The 721 does not charge a monthly fee for their pvr service in which makes up for the price of the receiver over a period of 1-4 years (based on $10 per month). That is a huge advantage and is the reason why some choose to take some of the disadvantages that the Dish receivers have because they save enough to make up for the price of it so if it is esentually free over time with what they save its harder to complain. If you get the deal where its $5 or nothing per month then this pretty well reduces or eliminates this advantage and would make the DirecTivo a better deal. 

Another thing is the extended warranty. Dish has one for $2 a month that covers all the receivers on the account where DirecTv has one for $5 per month. If there are more failures with the receiver then at least there is an option for free replacement (less S&H). 

Also Dish's PVR's have more hard drive space in some cases. The bad thing is that you cannot upgrade the Dish PVR hard drives.


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## bills976

Jacob S said:


> There are benefits and cons to each of the receivers. The 721 does not charge a monthly fee for their pvr service in which makes up for the price of the receiver over a period of 1-4 years (based on $10 per month). That is a huge advantage and is the reason why some choose to take some of the disadvantages that the Dish receivers have because they save enough to make up for the price of it so if it is esentually free over time with what they save its harder to complain. If you get the deal where its $5 or nothing per month then this pretty well reduces or eliminates this advantage and would make the DirecTivo a better deal.
> 
> Another thing is the extended warranty. Dish has one for $2 a month that covers all the receivers on the account where DirecTv has one for $5 per month. If there are more failures with the receiver then at least there is an option for free replacement (less S&H).
> 
> Also Dish's PVR's have more hard drive space in some cases. The bad thing is that you cannot upgrade the Dish PVR hard drives.


I agree with you to a point, Jacob. The Tivo fee with D* is a setback, though since it is now $5/month, it hurts a bit less than it did before. Of course the whole HMO debacle is another setback of the DirecTiVos. I'll be the first one to admit that the DirecTiVo is far from a perfect product, and has its faults.

That said, this would be a non-issue if Echostar could put out a bug-free receiver in the first place. Granted it's impossible for any company to release a piece of software that's completely bug-free, but it seems from the Dishplayers on that it's impossible for this company to release a piece of software that'll work reliably. I don't think Microsoft was 100% of the problem with the Dishplayers. I really hope that the 921 will have a better engine than the 721/508 because I'd like to see something compete with the HD DirecTiVo. Competition will likely drive down prices and make these HD PVRs/TiVos affordable, which is good for Directv and Dish customers alike.

It's been discussed before, but I'd like to reiterate the point that Dish should stop promising things that they can't possibly keep. While it is noble to communicate with your customers to the extent Ergen and Co. do, giving out information that should probably stay in-house since it isn't definitive is foolish. You just get people's hopes up and then can't deliver, making them upset with your company. The 721 had such great promise. They really could have hit a homerun with this receiver - made it superior to the Tivo and Replay products. Instead, they hit a single. Not necessarially bad, but not spectacular. The 921 gives them a chance to hit a homerun and I hope they do it (i.e. add name-based recording, make the product more reliable, drive upgrades, etc).

I'm not trying to be anti-Dish or pro-Directv. Quite honestly I hope both companies trounce cable. However, as I see it now, Echostar has room for improvement in terms of their receivers. Maybe it wouldn't hurt if they allowed others to manufacture their receivers? Or perhaps outsourced to other companies their software development? It just seems to me that a new approach is needed here in terms of their hardware.


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## Mike D-CO5

Maybe that's how Dish and Charlie keep prices down on their line of receivers and the prices of their programing. If you had to outsource to someone who knew what they were doing in terms of software they would have to pay accordingly. Once again Money is the determing factor. Charlie doesn't want to pay or outsource anything in order to keep prices low. 

Sometimes I think Charlie is a bit of a control freak.


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## Jacob S

Isnt the 921 going to have the same operating system as the 721?


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## Inaba

> Maybe that's how Dish and Charlie keep prices down on their line of receivers and the prices of their programing. If you had to outsource to someone who knew what they were doing in terms of software they would have to pay accordingly. Once again Money is the determing factor. Charlie doesn't want to pay or outsource anything in order to keep prices low.


They could do it for free if they open sourced the functionality (such as the U/I) - there is ZERO fundamental reason to make it available to the public if the system was designed properly. If they open sourced their software, they would have LEGIONS of new customers... because the 721 (and by extension, I'm guessing the 921) would be the absolute BEST PVR on the market, bar none, hands down.

If implimented properly, the system could remain secure and allow all the flexibility of hundreds of people working on their software... for free!

This would even be a way around the "patented" features that they can't include formally... because it would be the end users including it of their own volition. The 721 would rapidly outshine Tivo, ReplayTV, UltimateTV, etc... Frankly, I'm very suprised that either D* or E* hasn't jumped on this goldmine yet. No corporation can compete with thousands of people working for free.


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## Karl Foster

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Maybe that's how Dish and Charlie keep prices down on their line of receivers and the prices of their programing. If you had to outsource to someone who knew what they were doing in terms of software they would have to pay accordingly. Once again Money is the determing factor. Charlie doesn't want to pay or outsource anything in order to keep prices low.
> 
> Sometimes I think Charlie is a bit of a control freak.


How is charging $500+/- for a dual-tuner PVR keeping prices down? :scratch:

The price for programming is a wash (except for the lowest tier, which Directv doesn't offer).

I just read these posts and have a chuckle. I have three Ultimatetv PVR's on Directv. The only time the smart card has ever been removed from any of them was when Directv replaced the cards to the new P4 format, and one of them is over two years old now.

I will admit that when I had E*, I liked the channel lineup and the actual placement of the channels in the guide, but I have to agree with bills976 on this one. E* should outsource some of their software and hardware needs.


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## Inaba

I, too, had a UTV box. It's second only to a full blown Tivo2. I hate to say anything good about Microsoft, but they did a fine job on their PRV... the only beef I had with it was the slow guide. Otherwise, it did everything a PVR should do and worked flawlessly.

You could even upgrade the hard drive, ala Tivo. If only the 721 were as flexible or as refined.


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