# HOA help please



## rcwilcox (Jan 20, 2003)

Put up a system for my dad in a HOA controlled subdivision. Put up a 500 plus a 300 dish (300 for Sky Angel and some locals). Sent in request to HOA to get approval and they tell me I am only "allowed" one dish visible form the street and to remove one of them. Is this legal? I can't move the 500 anywhere else (it is on the side of the house) and get a signal but I could move the 300 to the backyard on a post behind the fence and still get a signal. Then it would not be visible from the street but sure would show through the windows from the inside of the house. The way I read the regs it almost looks like they could make me move or remove it. Any thoughts on this?


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

It is your RIGHT, under FCC rules, to put up any dish you want, subject to some exclusions that do not apply to this situation. A copy of the rule is in the links of this board, and its one of the main pages at fcc.gov.

Just print it out and tell the homeowners association to pound sand.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Read, print out, and tell your dad to tell the HOA to put that reg where the sun doesn't shine.

He CAN put up as many dishes as required to get his desired programming, so long as ALL dishes are A) - less tham 1 Meter and B) - are on his exclusive use areas.

The "out of site" can only be enforced if it doesn't interfere with Line of sight.

He can ALSO put up an OTA antenna for recpetion of "local" broadcast stations - no size limit.


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## rcwilcox (Jan 20, 2003)

scooper said:


> Read, print out, and tell your dad to tell the HOA to put that reg where the sun doesn't shine.
> 
> He CAN put up as many dishes as required to get his desired programming, so long as ALL dishes are A) - less tham 1 Meter and B) - are on his exclusive use areas.
> 
> ...


But it can be put "out of site just isn't so good personally. I am concerned about the following language from the reg:

"However, a regulation requiring that antennas be placed where they are not visible from the street would be permissible if this placement does not prevent reception of an acceptable quality signal or impose unreasonable expense or delay" Seems like they have me here. Anybody know anything about dish covers that look like rocks?


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Regardless of what the HOA policies state, SHVIA and OTARD take precedence. What is provided for and allowed in the federal law and FCC regs is what you go by. It would be good if you and your dad "educate" the directors of your dad's HOA as to what his rights are under the law, but in a "helpful" way so as to avoid confrontation. Remember, you dad still has to live there.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

OK - if you can't get reception anywhere else - your Dish500 is OK. However, if you can move the Dish300 to another location where it can't be seen, yet still gets adequate reception - you must move it. However, you CAN still keep all dishes - the HOA's regs are out of compliance with the OTARD. Life is a series of compromises - the OTARD is just such a set. Deal with it.


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## zman977 (Nov 9, 2003)

I have a related question. My sister in law rents a house that has a dish 500 system. The problem is to get her local channels she needs a superdish. Her landlord has told her he will not allow them to put a second dish on the house. He says the dish that is there cannot be removed because it is mounted on the roof and it would require tearing up part of the roof to remove it. My sister in law cannot get her locals with an outdoor antenna. She has tried and gets nothing but snow. My question, is this legal for her land lord to be doing this. I should also add that her house is in the middle of no where. We are talking the boonies. 
Any help would be appreciated. 
thanks


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

How about putting the superdish somewhere besides the house? Would the landlord prefer a pole mount?

It's probably not legal to block a superdish for locals, but it's better to reach an agreement than win a lawsuit.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

The law allows renters to put up whatever dish they need to get reception of the desired programs under the following conditions:

1)The dish must be less than 1 meter in diameter
2)The dish CANNOT be permenantly mounted or anchored to the building (i.e. you can't drill holes in some one else's property--not even to get the cable inside the building)
3)The dish MUST be completely within your exclusive use area such as a patio or balcony. It cannot be hanging over the edge or outside a window.
4)The property in question must NOT be within a "historic district" or be a REGISTERED historic building.

So if your sister has a dish on the roof, then the land lord was quite nice to let her do that in the first place!

See ya
Tony


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

House out in the boonies - implys YARD - put the Superdish on a pole in the yard, and leave the original Dish500 (at least the foot) on the roof in its current location. Instead of sinking the pole into the ground, you might try some sort of tripod / frame that holds the superdish pole (this isn't attached and isn't "permanent"). hold it down with some weight. Leaving the foot of the Dish500 alone alleviates the "causing additional damage to remove it" problem.

Next problem is getting the signals into the house from the SuperDish - either use the cables that were with the Dish500 or use something like the flat coax to go in under a window.


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## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

OK.. I'll wade into this one. I'm an avid "Dish" user and also a member of the HOA's Architectural Committee. 

Let's look at what we want to accomplish:
- The owner want's to get Dish and (Sometimes) off-air TV reception.
- The HOA is working to protect EVERYONEs property values by keeping the place looking nice. In many neighborhoods that involves everything from makeing sure that homes aren't painted with wild colors to taking your trash can inside.
- The homeowner voluntarily moved into a neighborhood that had restrictions. In other words, they agreed to help maintain their property and that of the neighborhood.

In our neighborhood we've found that we can all get along if we just work at it. 

Here is how we do it:
- If you can get adequiate reception you must put the dish on the back/ back corner of the home. If it won't work there, you can put it on the side, behind the midline. If (and only if) that won't work you can put the dish on the front of the home. I've somehow become the resident expert. I have checked a number of home installs that someone said "couldn't be done."

- In virtually all cases, when we found a problem, It wasn't that the resident intentionally wanted to clutter-up the front of their home with a dish, the installer just put it there as a shortcut to keep from having to string cable from the cable tap (access point for drops to the various rooms) to the back of the house. Note: That problem is caused by installers being paid BY THE JOB. There is little incentive to do it neat and right.

- It does not cost the homeowner extra to place the dish properly. Enough cabling is included in the standard install package to cover every installation.

In other words, things are great so long as:
- The HOA is willing to bend when there truly is a reason to install the dish in an "undesired" location. 
- The homeowner does their best to locate the dish in the least visible location.

Attached is an article I wrote for our HOA newsletter. I hope it may be of some value to others.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Scooters - the one thing I didn't see addressed in your article (well written, BTW) was OTA antennas as well. Your HOA IS aware that OTA antennas can't be prohibited as well ?


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

zman977 said:


> I have a related question. My sister in law rents a house that has a dish 500 system. The problem is to get her local channels she needs a superdish. Her landlord has told her he will not allow them to put a second dish on the house. He says the dish that is there cannot be removed because it is mounted on the roof and it would require tearing up part of the roof to remove it. My sister in law cannot get her locals with an outdoor antenna. She has tried and gets nothing but snow. My question, is this legal for her land lord to be doing this. I should also add that her house is in the middle of no where. We are talking the boonies.
> Any help would be appreciated.
> thanks


could the superdish REPLACE the 500? havent installed a superdish, but its something to think about. have the installer on the hook for roof damage


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## jmbrooks (Jan 11, 2004)

Thanks guys for this information. I am also a board member of an HOA and this issue came up tonight at our board meeting. Our property manager was going over a list of violations and two were for antenna's. I promply interupted and mentioned the FCC rule, she seemed to know of it and said that it only pertained to DBS dishes. I had not read it and wasn't sure. Thanks to you I e-mailed the URL to her for both the Fact Sheet and FCC rule. It looks pretty cut and dry to me. I also agree with the points scooters made. If it's allowed it must be a proper professional installation.

I do take issue with his statement about one's agreement to abide the rules when one moves into an HOA. There are very few neighborhoods in my city that do not have an HOA and ALL new neighborhoods have them. Seems to me that is not a choice at all. Yes we want to keep our investments safe and live in a place we can be proud of, but lets not go crazy with the restrictions.


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## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

scooper said:


> Scooters - the one thing I didn't see addressed in your article (well written, BTW) was OTA antennas as well. Your HOA IS aware that OTA antennas can't be prohibited as well ?


Scooper: Thanks for taking the time to read through my stuff. Yes, we are aware of the broadcast antenna rules. We require that the residents follow the same rules as for Dish in locating their antennas. Additionally, we "ENCOURAGE" them to use the lowest profile antenna possible.

Interestingly we are about 15 - 18 miles NW of the Austin TV Staion's Broadcast "Antenna Farm." Thus, the antennas need to be on the same side of the building as their dish ((( Dish and off-air need to point SE))).

In preparation for my new 921 which will arrive tomorrow (I hope) I spent the weekend taking down my (marginal at-best) Terk "Halo" antenna and putting up a Terk 55 just under the eaves of my house.. about 20 feet above ground level. I carefully positioned it in the "shade" are for minimum visibility and carefully dressed the RG-6 down behind the downspout. Anyhow..... I still got a crappy signal.

I went to the local Fry's store and the TV manager suggested a RCA amplified INDOOR antenna. I was in disbelief, but figured that I'd try anything once. I plugged the antenna in and voila... had a rock solid signal on all local stations. Truly has made me a Terk disbeliever!

I also suspect that a lot of folks really DON'T need an outdoor antenna.

Anyhow, if anyone is interested, I've attached our ACC rule. Hopefully it may be of some help to others.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I wouldn't issue a "blanket statement" that all anybody needs for OTA reception is an amplified indoor antenna. If you tried such an antenna at my house (also 18-25 miles from the antenna farm, but I'm in the middle of dense woods, also house construction (my house was built with foil covered sheeting)) - you wouldn't get anything but snow. Even using my external antennas, I need a good pre-amp on the UHF to get an acceptable signal. And my antennas are 25-30 feet up in the air on a chimney mount (still 12 feet or less above the roofline - by FCC regs (see the OTARD link) the Homeowner is ALLOWED to go up to this height).


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## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

jmbrooks said:


> Thanks guys for this information. I am also a board member of an HOA and this issue came up tonight at our board meeting. Our property manager was going over a list of violations and two were for antenna's. I promply interupted and mentioned the FCC rule, she seemed to know of it and said that it only pertained to DBS dishes. I had not read it and wasn't sure. Thanks to you I e-mailed the URL to her for both the Fact Sheet and FCC rule. It looks pretty cut and dry to me. I also agree with the points scooters made. If it's allowed it must be a proper professional installation.
> 
> I do take issue with his statement about one's agreement to abide the rules when one moves into an HOA. There are very few neighborhoods in my city that do not have an HOA and ALL new neighborhoods have them. Seems to me that is not a choice at all. Yes we want to keep our investments safe and live in a place we can be proud of, but lets not go crazy with the restrictions.


JMBROOKS:

I don't want to get off-topic too much. However...
I agree that most new neighborhoods have restrictions. Unfortunately, most folks don't do their "due- diligence" before they buy their home. They see the pretty neighborhood and buy the house. The don't ask what MADE it so pretty. In many cases, it is enforcement of restrictions. 
People really need to INVESTIGATE BEFORE they buy in an neighborhood. Restrictions are a legally binding contract. They are included in the (ton of) papers that you get at closing.

We live in a nice upper-middle class neighborhood. We try not to be "white glove jerks", but still enforce our restrictions. About a year ago I walked through a nearby neighborhood without HOA enforced restrictions. You could tell when you entered. One guy had a semi-tractor parked in his residential drive. There were trailers and boats everywhere. A couple of cars were 'on blocks' (for long-term maintenance I guess). In some cases, dishes were hanging on the front of the fence, with cable wandering across the yard. And the list goes on...

When someone buys a home and moves into a restricted neighborhood, they are under contract with their neighbors to do (or not do) certain things. HOA Boards have a legal duty to enforce that contract. It is unfair for the folks who live-up to their contract to ignore the ones who clearly break the rules.

In summary, most people want to live in a nice neighborhood with protective restrictions... just as long as the restrictions don't apply to THEIR pet project.

..... Now we return you to the main thread...


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## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

scooper said:


> I wouldn't issue a "blanket statement" that all anybody needs for OTA reception is an amplified indoor antenna. If you tried such an antenna at my house (also 18-25 miles from the antenna farm, but I'm in the middle of dense woods, also house construction (my house was built with foil covered sheeting)) - you wouldn't get anything but snow. Even using my external antennas, I need a good pre-amp on the UHF to get an acceptable signal. And my antennas are 25-30 feet up in the air on a chimney mount (still 12 feet or less above the roofline - by FCC regs (see the OTARD link) the Homeowner is ALLOWED to go up to this height).


Scooper: No blanket statement from me, just telling you what works in my neighborhood and suggesting that folks take the easiest path to get what they need. Looks like you need more "oomph" than I do.

Yep, I'm familiar with the FCC regulations. That is why we tried to write rules that would make sure that folks would get the signal they need, while protecting the appearance of our neighborhood.

Again, the challenge that all neighborhoods have is that, regardless of signal strength, there is always someone who will try to put up a 40 element beam at 150 feet, just 'cuz he could. ((To re-emphasize. It looks like you need the external antennas, I am not talking about you, only those who don't need the metal to get the signal)).


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

Scooter, I see that we like to quote HOA's rules but not the address or the FCC rules in there entirety. Even though you are a board member and have a DBS system don't you think it only right to tell your home owners, the government rules and regulations. Or do you intentionally leave this out of your home owner guidelines and rules. Personally I would look forward to the lawsuit against the HOA. I would be sure and send my congressman and senator the half written rules and regulations I was given from the HOA. It seems that HOA's like to rewrite there rules and reg's with out a vote from the homeowners. And then just tell the homeowner they are wrong because they changed the rules. I to live in an HOA, and I told them I will put my Dish System where I want. Then I politely give them the rules of the FCC and tell them, the HOA to call Washington and gripe to them. HOA's are not big fans of satellite dish's. But they are hear to stay and they need to get used to it. It is a fact of life, and Washington has stated they need to get over it.


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## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

Guyz... I realize that some of you are really passionate about this issue. I'm sure it is because you have had a HOA "jerk you around" on antenna placement.

I'll be the first to stick up for anyone who is denied the right to place a TV or DBS antenna that is needed to receive the signal on their property. It is clear to me that HOAs can't prohibit that. We don't try to prohibit dishes/ antennas and we clearly state that in our rules.

On the other hand, the FCC does give the HOAs the latitude to make a prioritized list of where the HOA wants antennas placed. We did so in our rules. Below is a quote from the FCC fact sheet in this regard. The entire sheet can be viewed at: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html.


What restrictions prevent a viewer from receiving an acceptable quality signal?

A: For antennas designed to receive analog signals, such as TVBS, a requirement that an antenna be located where reception would be impossible or substantially degraded is prohibited by the rule. However, a regulation requiring that antennas be placed where they are not visible from the street would be permissible if this placement does not prevent reception of an acceptable quality signal or impose unreasonable expense or delay. For example, if installing an antenna in the rear of the house costs significantly more than installation on the side of the house, then such a requirement would be prohibited. If, however, installation in the rear of the house does not impose unreasonable expense or delay or preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal, then the restriction is permissible and the viewer must comply.

"Q: I'm a board member of a homeowners' association, and we want to revise our restrictions so that they will comply with the FCC rule. Do you have guidelines you can send me?

A: We do not have sample guidelines because every community is different. We can send you the rule and the relvant orders, which will give you general guidance. (See list of documents at the end of this factsheet. Some communities have written restrictions that provide a prioritized list of placement preferences so that residents can see where the association wants them to install the antenna. The residents should comply with the placement preferences provided the preferred placement does not impose unreasonable delay or expense or preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal."

Our restrictions are written to pass the "3 tests" that are required by the FCC:
- We ensure that the resident gets an acceptable quality signal.
- We do not impose an unreasonable delay (No prior permit is required).
- We do not impose an ureasonable cost.

I didn't come here to pick a fight, nor do I intend to participate in one. I hoped to help others find some constructive solutions that met both the needs of the resident and the neighborhood.

... for what it's worth.


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## chrisk (Jun 6, 2004)

Yes, I have been "messed with" by HOA's before so I am a little biased. This is more for "academic" discussion.

"Other locations forward of the center-line of the home are NOT preferred locations and may be utilized only if the homeowner can demonstrate, in writing and in fact, that the satellite signal cannot be received by a dish in the preferred location. In all cases, the location least visible from the front of the home that allows reception of the satellite signal must be used."

Does "proving in writing and in fact" not cause "delay" which would seem to be prohibited by federal law? Who decides what is an unreasonable delay? It would seem for one to comply one would have to have a site survey to "proving in writing and in fact" that the dish must be located in a non-preferred area. Then a second appointment to have the dish installed. Does the result of the first site survey to prove the signal can only be received in a "non-preferred area" have to be presented to the architectural review board? This would seem prudent to avoid action based on the quote below. But it would also seem to cause unreasonable delay.

"The Association may require a homeowner, at his/her expense, to relocate a DBS Dish that is installed in a “non-preferred location” if the DBS signal can be received from a “preferred location.”"

How would the association prove the signal could be received in a preferred area without trespassing? The federal law protects dishes installed in areas exclusively for use by the resident. It would seem someone would have to intrude into that area to determine the signal could be received in a "preferred" area.


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

Scooters said:


> We live in a nice upper-middle class neighborhood. We try not to be "white glove jerks", but still enforce our restrictions. About a year ago I walked through a nearby neighborhood without HOA enforced restrictions. You could tell when you entered. One guy had a semi-tractor parked in his residential drive. There were trailers and boats everywhere. A couple of cars were 'on blocks' (for long-term maintenance I guess). In some cases, dishes were hanging on the front of the fence, with cable wandering across the yard. And the list goes on...


Y'know, we're not talking about rainbow-painted houses or front-yard car parts dealers. We're talking about satellite dishes.

:soapbox: I honestly don't understand the aesthetic offense of seeing a dish, even if it's in someone else's yard or roof, even if I can see it from my front window. Ditto for an OTA roof antenna.

If you really want to avoid being white glove jerks, make the antenna rule simple: Keep it in good repair or take it down. I suspect the neighborhood won't decay if some residents need two dishes to get all their locals.


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## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

*ChrisK: *

You ask some good questions.

99% of the battles are won by simply getting the homeowner to "advise" the installer that they want it put near the rear of the home when the installer comes out (assuming that there is a clear shot).

Most homeowners aren't satellite techies like us. The simply call and expect the dish to be installed properly. They would prefer to have the dish out of sight, but don't know enough about DBS to know that they have a choice in the position.

Virtually all of our problems have been from installers who plant the dish just above the cable tap (which is near the front of the house) in order to save a few feet of cable.

Most installers will put the dish in any working location that the homeowner requests, as long as they get the shot.... they just won't volunteer to do it unless the homeowner asks.

If the installer can't get the shot, they can document it when they do the install (no delay or second trip).

So far, I don't think that we've had a problem of any installer saying that there isn't a shot, when there is a good one. Especially, if the homeowner asks them to put it in writing. (( Could result in an freebie re-do for the installer who tries to buffalo the homeowner)).

Candidly, we've only had a handful of installations where a preferred location is impossible.

If it looks like the installer is correct, then there is no issue.

In other cases, we offer to help the homeowner figure out the dish issue. With our small lots, it is pretty easy to tell if there is a shot available.

Sometimes the "preferred" location ends up being on the lower end of the roof at the back of the house. Depending on the angle, the satellite may be above the roof pitch and the home itself ends up providing the clear area for the shot.

Remember, in Central Texas, we don't have a major problem with tall trees.. especially in new neighborhoods. The satellite is relatively higher in the sky than in other locations. YMMV depending on your US location.

Since we are talking about "academics" here, our restrictions include a "right of entry." However, I can't ever  see the need to use it in a case like this.

*Carload: * 
We have no restrictions on the number of dishes.

What looks fine to one homeowner is ugly to the next.... One guy likes his dish the other likes his boat in the front yard. Both are annoyed by the other one.

:jumpingja :jumpingja :jumpingja :jumpingja YeeeHaaaa... The doorbell just rang and my new 921 has just arrived. Don't think that you will be hearing much from me for a while... unless it is in the tech support forum.


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## DHall (Apr 29, 2004)

Scooters said:


> *ChrisK: *
> 
> You ask some good questions.
> 
> ...


Scooter

I read your HOA regs on dish placement and think it's well written. However, I think you'll run into trouble with the requirement that the homeowner prove that a preferred location could not get an acceptable signal. This is from the FCC fact sheet:

Q: Who is responsible for showing that a restriction is enforceable?

A: When a conflict arises about whether a restriction is valid, the local government, community association, property owner, or management entity that is trying to enforce the restriction has the burden of proving that the restriction is valid. This means that no matter who questions the validity of the restriction, the burden will always be on the entity seeking to enforce the restriction to prove that the restriction is permitted under the rule or that it qualifies for a waiver

It looks to me as if the HOA must demonstrate that a preferred location is acceptable, not the other way around.


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

Satellite dishes are not ugly. They are television receiving equipment and we need to get over this aesthetic issue.

Why aren't people complaining about water spigots? Have you seen some of the water spigots around here? The paint is chipping off of the spigots. It's completely awful! We should make people put fake rocks over their water spigots even though a rock hanging off the side of a brick house would look completely ridiculous. Or those grey outdoor electrical plugs. When I see one of those I spontaneously urinate due to the radiating ugliness from these electrical plugs. We should make people put the electrical plugs in ridiculous places where they can't access them, but at least the neighborhood won't be ugly!

Give me a break.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Maybe the HOA could just specify the paint color of all the Dishes...


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