# DishPlayer PTV Fee Will Be $9.99 a Month Afrer June, 2003



## Bill R

First, I have to say the this is NOT official but I was told this morning that after June, 2003, when the DishPlayer PTV "specials" expire that the fee will go back to $9.99 a month. I was also told that they are NOT considering any more "specials" (like 3 years for $99).

I don't think this is fair and I think that we should let DISH know that. Maybe if we get enough people complaining directly to DISH that they will re-consider the fee. I was told that the best way to complain about the $9.99 fee is to fill out THIS FORM on the DISH web site. If you are considering keeping your DishPlayers past June, 2003, and don't think it is fair to have to pay $9.99 for the service please let DISH know.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Thanks Bill for posting that here and welcome to DBSTalk.COM :hi:

When purchased my Dishplayer I was told me free PTV was lifetime PTV service, not 3 years.

I hope Echostar does the right thing here and continues to provide free PTV service for those Dishplayer owners who took advantage of their Lifetime free PTV offer.

I invite EVERYONE who owns a Dishplayer to contact Echostar on this matter.


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## Bill R

Thanks for the welcome Scott and I agree that EVERYONE should contact DISH about this. I sent in my complaint this morning and I choose the Customer Service option on the web site. Here is what I sent:

"I have two DishPlayers (model 7100s) and I am writing to complain about a proposed change in the way DISH charges me for PTV service (this change affects those of us that got the "PTV special" deals). Right now I have your PTV "special" where I got 3 years of PTV service for $99.00. I understand that when this special expires in June, 2003, that the PTV fee will go up to $9.99 a month.

There is NO way that I will pay $9.99 a month for this service. The DishPlayers don't work correctly (and NEVER have) due to problems in your and Microsoft's DishPlayer software. Right now there is a problem with losing sound after the PTV pause function and in order to get the 7 day EPG I have to use a "special code (7225000)" each night after I turn off my DishPlayers. I have been told that these problems will be corrected in a future software release but it seems that everytime that Echostar or Microsoft releases software for the DishPlayer they fix old bugs and add new ones.

I have been a Dish Network customer for a very long time but I will likely terminate my service with the DISH Network if my PTV service goes to $9.99 a month in June, 2003, and if you don't fix the bugs in your software.

Thank you,


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## Scott Greczkowski

I am making this a sticky thread, I encourage all Dishplayer owners to email (using the above link) Dish Network and tell them your not happy with this idea.

Thanks again Bill R.


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## Randy_B

If they do that, I will be joining Dan and the crew (and sounds like Bill as well) that have crossed over to DirecTivo. Oh, that would PO me. As Scott has said, when they first put out that promotion it was lifetime, it switched to 3 yrs after a couple of months.


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## EvanS

seriously, how many DishPlayers are out there in use? I am really not too familiar and have never much followed them. But if the subsciber base is relatively small I would have to wonder, given the M$ & WebTV basis of this, as well as all the previous problems, if maybe E* wouldn't just simply prefer that it went away.
They could be calculating on some percentage of DP users wanting to stay with E* badly enough that they would move to one of the current PVR's.

I dunno, just a thought...and I'm certainly not saying it's the right way to do it. I'd be pissed too!!


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## Scott Greczkowski

I am willing to bet that most of the Dishplayers sold are still in use out there. They are a very popular item on EBAY. 

In my opinion, the Dishplayer was a satellite receiver that was ahead of it's time. And out of a Tivo, Ultimate TV, or even a Dish 501 and 721 the Dishplayer was the easiest to use and had the best interface.


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## Bob Haller

Well honestly that will be the straw that broke the camels back. They cant get them to work reliably, and even the 721 has bugs. Now start charging for defective operation, yeah sure. I am e mailing this address and the [email protected] one too. I aM fed up WITH THE BUG RIDDEN MESS....

Direct Tivos here I come...

I have on DP in a closet because of the software problems. I suspect its time to e bay the stinking things..


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## Bob Haller

Well I hear your planning on charging the PVR fee on the dishplayers begining in june when the 3 year free offer I bought ends. Just wanted you to know that I am FED UP. After sticking with those bug ridden pieces of junk you would do such a thing, considering you cant write a good stable software for it. 

I took one offline recently because of the problems including the buggy guides.

Myself I love DBS but frankly I will buy Direct tivo if this decision stands. It has totally pissed me off. At this point you should be offering a free upgrade to dishplayer sufferers. 

Its sad Dish USED to be a good company. bob haller


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## gcutler

Why would dish do this, if it is true? Just because the can, dosen't mean they should? Sound like A PR nightmare for the DP.


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## Jacob S

Its Microsoft that is charging the fee. This is why Dish came out with its own product. I think at least half if not most of the people will decide to drop the dishplayer product and buy a new 501, switch to DirecTivo, or buy Tivo. Most will get some sort of PVR product if they do get rid of the Dishplayer. It would be cheaper to buy a 508 or 721 than to pay the $10 a month fees, and you can even sell the Dishplayer online and get a lot if not most of the money back.


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## Mark Holtz

What version of the ROM card does the DishPlayer use? That may be why it's so popular on e-bay.

Of course, I'm waiting until the next release of the 50x with an even bigger hard drive.


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## Randy_B

I think at one point I read there were about 250k DPs sold.


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## Bob Haller

I heard that early on 1/2 were returned. I dont know if its true.

Just think all us good subs ebay the DPs because oif the fee. They are bought by hackers and E ends up loosing TWICE...

Why dont we all e mail [email protected] they might be intersted. Put a link back to here for them to rethink this dumb decision.

So whats a good deal on D TIVOs? Want HDs as big as a 721, 2 tuner, basically a 721 with that season pass?.

Sad I will have to support 61.5 for sky angel, since I am a lifetime sub. If I use a DP on sky angel only would they charge me for PVR on the DP?

I wil ask that CEO address, its a interesting question.


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## STXJim

Bill,
It is great to see you posting here.
This is a great site.
Please keep in touch with Chris and Scott and the rest of the crew.
Your knowledge will be greatly be appreciated here.
Happy holidays,
Jim


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## Bob Haller

I sent this to the CEO address...



Well I hear your planning on charging the PVR fee on the dishplayers begining in june when the 3 year free offer I bought ends. Just wanted you to know that I am FED UP. After sticking with those bug ridden pieces of junk you would do such a thing, considering you cant write a good stable software for it. 

I took one offline recently because of the problems including the buggy guides.

Myself I love DBS but frankly I will buy Direct tivo if this decision stands. It has totally pissed me off. At this point you should be offering a free upgrade to dishplayer sufferers. 

Its sad Dish USED to be a good company. 

If this decision stands I will still need to support 61.5 for sky angel. If I use a DP for sky ONLY would the PVR fee apply?.

Honestly this is a sad day for me. I was the biggest Dish supporter around, attended the Echo 6 launch as a VIP, was interviewed by Laurie Farkas on DNN, had Mike Dugan once call me to thank me for a tech suggestion I made and dish used. I felt bad the merger failed. But now I realize that failure was a GOOD thing. Diish has seriously lost its way....

My one DP is unusable, the other has numerous bugs, both endlessly waiting for the software fix that never comes and your going to CHARGE?

BTW my phone number is robert haller, , pittsburgh pa, at over $100 month sub. Do you really want to loose long term subs like me?

(personal info deleted here)

irritatedly yours bob haller


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## TNGTony

Well, I begrudgingly sent a similar letter. I will strongly consider leaving Dish for greener pastures in July 2003 if they decide to charge me $10 a month more for a service that has been "buggy" at best. Crappy at worst!

You know what is worse is, I now work for Communtity TV. This place is 100% funded by franchise fees paid to the cable cumpany by subscribers. (we put on more original programming per month than most TV station in the market). Anyway, I have an incentive to go back to the EVIL cable company. And I already have RoadRunner!

See ya
Tony


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## Geronimo

Only SOME DP owners had this deal. MAny of us have been paying all along and the deal was that you had it free for a perod of time. When it expires it expires.


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## Jacob S

They should have a dishplayer trade-in deal.


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## Phil T

I sent an e-mail to Dish requesting a trade in deal and mentioning the long time suffering of Dishplayer owners.

I wonder if I will get a reply?


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## Mark Holtz

Well, if I were the one reading the messages as they were worded here, the answer is no. You have to respect the person who you are directing the letter towards, even if you think the decision stinks. 

And, you cannot say to me with a straight face that you didn't know this was coming. For over two years, I have seen the "expires in July, 2003", and everyone was wondering what was going to happen afterwards. Well, now you know. 

I can understand your fustrations with the DishPlayer bugs, and how the fee might be slap in the face. But, noone is forcing Dish, DirecTV, or cable on you.


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## RodP

> _Originally posted by Geronimo _
> *Only SOME DP owners had this deal. MAny of us have been paying all along and the deal was that you had it free for a perod of time. When it expires it expires. *


I have watched many dealer chats and I remember Charlie saying that anybody subscribing between "blah blah to blah blah and purchased the DP7100/7200 would receive PTV for life (as long as they stayed a subscriber)". A few days later we received a fax blast that said "do to contract (blah blah)" we can only honor this until June 2003.

A promo that came out shortly after was for current DishPlayer owners. They customer could pay $99.00 and the PTV $9.99 per month would be waved until June 2003, which I signed up for.

All promos for DP's and free PTV since then I can only remember were based on "until June 2003".

I recently upgraded a friend to 7200 that had never had a PTV and the CSR said yes, he qualifies for PTV at no charge. Nothing was said about the subscription for PTV would ever end.

When the 501 was the newest unit I remember Charlie saying anybody that purchases the 501 PVR and stays a subscriber will never be charged for the PVR service.

I cannot imagine Dish would ever charge for PTV/PVR services on just certain models (it is to confusing for the customers, dealers and the CSRs) PVR for ALL or ALL for NO PVR.

Later Rod


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## Bob Haller

My e mail wasnt real nice. But then again I AM A CUSTOMER! One who has suffered thru numerous bugs, lost programs, daily resets, tons of phone calls to tech support. and everything else that goes with owning one of these beasts.

At minimum EVERYONE should get a response.

I kinda suspect the person who leaked this info did it intentionally to get this response. No doubt they know its a bad decision as well. 

Now some E executive will be reading this and wondering why wrere so unhappy. Thats fine. If they are brite they will realize this move will cost them long term high end subs.

I wouldnt be surprised if all of us complainers get a real nice spiffy upgrade offer on a 508.

One thing about Dish, they arent stupid and are actually quite logical in their decisions.


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## Bob Haller

What they rEALLY should do is activate PVR on all remaing units at no charge till there obsolete. This might help retain subs who like the feature.


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## Phil T

Here is the canned response they are sending out:

Thank you for your e-mail. At this time we are only allowed to discuss the equipment, products, promotions and policies that we currently have available. Please be advised that the decisions made are based on policy. The PTV service on the Dishplayer has always been a pay service. It includes not only the recording features but the games and Instant News information also. The 501 is a PVR system that uses different technology and does not contain the same features. 



Please understand the PVR 501 already has the capability built into the software, allowing customer to receive the interactive features with out charging additional fees. Unfortunately, when the Dish Player was introduced, we did not have that PVR capability available through the software and therefore have to send you the feature and capabilities via satellite in turn we charge you to provide the service. The DISH player still utilizes the Microsoft platform. Again, we are unable to offer the PTV services at no cost with the Dish Player.

As technology enhances, so do some of our models. You are able, at any time, to purchase the latest state-of-the-art receivers that our engineers produce and DISH Network manufactures such as the 501 PVR. We are offering our existing customers an opportunity to purchase a DISH PVR 501 for only $199.00.

HOW IT WORKS : Blah Blah Blah

I edited out the promotional junk.


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## Eyedox

Will the $10/mo fee apply to the DISH PVR721/921?? Or is it just the old DISH PLAYER sytems??


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## Geronimo

Dish has been charging it on some models and not oters all this time. The fact of the matter is that a promotional deal is expiring. While some of you may want to awitch to another PVR or drop the service the fact remains that the promo is over after June.

This is not a change in DIsh policy. Jut the end of a promo that applied to SOME DP owners. So no it is not being extended to the 721 etc.


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## Wedgecon

Well for whats it worth I filled out the form and just flat out told them to either:

1) Not charge the fee starting in June
2) Give me a replacement 508 for free
3) Sell me a 721 at a deep discount

If they do not I will just move on to a directivo. I have put up with all the DP problems for 3 years and that is that..


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## Halfsek

Was the Dishplayer the one where it was part WebTv or something? Ugh, what a heap. It should definitely have had a "powered by Microsoft" sticker on it. Very reliably unreliable.
It gave me a taste for a PVR, so I ran out and bought a Tivo.

Anyway, I would suggest that Dish offer a coupon for $350.00 (or whatever half the cost of a 701 is) which will be redeemed by a credit on your monthly statement. That way you get a very superior unit for a reasonable cost- although you do have to shell out the full price at the time of purchase.

Granted, my retail business doesn't have the same number of customers as Dish, but I've found that when something unexpected like this happens, I offer some sort of discount/ offer to let the customer know that I'm doing what I can to make the 'bite' of the situation more manageable.

By the way, the sentence should read "I hear that you're planning..." not "your planning." You are= you're.


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## Bob Haller

I sell office equiptement and over the years thru no fault of my own I have sold some things that turned out to be junk. Just unreliable bug ridden units. Just think of a DP and you will know what I mean.

Even though it hurt fiancially I replaced those units with something that worklked and ate the cost.

What I lost $ I gained back in the form of loyal custoimers.

E really needs to look at the DP this way...

I decided to add it was small copiers that didnt copy along with some seal rl laminators that didnt laminate. On these 2 items I ate over $12,000, although I sold off the junk machines for pennies on the dollar in an atrtemot to recoup some of the losses.

My business is real small yet I felt obligated to my customers. Lets HOPE dish looks at it the same way.


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## cnsf

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *They should have a dishplayer trade-in deal. *


I actually sent a nicer email to [email protected] and got 2 501s for $99/each. I'm sure they'll do the same for the 508s.

Just BE NICE when you call. You attract more bees with honey....


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## cnsf

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *What they rEALLY should do is activate PVR on all remaing units at no charge till there obsolete. This might help retain subs who like the feature. *


I think the point is that they are obsolete according to E*.....


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## cnsf

> _Originally posted by Halfsek _
> *By the way, the sentence should read "I hear that you're planning..." not "your planning." You are= you're.  *


You can't pick on people's spelling and grammar around here....you'd be posting all day, every day.....


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## llunken777

Help me to understand this. Will this $9.95 PVR charge be applied to my 508 and 501 units?


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## Scott Greczkowski

No the charge will be only for those folks with Dish 7100 / 7200 receivers (More commonly known as the Dishplayer)


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## JBKing

And those folks with DishPlayers are more commonly known among E* staff as 'suckers', of which I am one.


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## Bob Haller

This fee feels like a kick to the groin by a company I thought appreciated my business. I havent got a reply from the [email protected] address. Anyone else mail them?


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## Scott Greczkowski

I have received no reply as well. I notice on the newsgroups some people have got replies (of course with no real answers)


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## JBKing

No response from the "CEO", just the canned response to the email I sent to link off the E* website.


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## Geronimo

Since new subs have to pay the $9.95 anyway I don't know that this would affect prices on E bay. The only way it might is if those of you who were able to take advantage of the earlier offers sell yours thus increasing supply.

People get angry when I say this but I never really expected them to continue the free PVR. But that was my opinion.


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## Bob Haller

Hopefully no reply from CEO means the questin is at minimum getting looked at. I am not going to procrastinate the change. As soon as this news gets to be common knowledge the Ebay price will drop. Today I was looking at where to put a D dish on my home. The existing location wouldnt work for 101. Intergrating sky angel will be a pain.

I hope someone there realizes loosing high end long term $100 a month subs is a bad idea....

It appears I can sell of most of my E stuff and use the proceeds to pay for the D conversion.

I honestly dont want to change but its the principle of the thing. I believe thats why most of us are upset.


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## Jacob S

DirecTv had great deals on their PVR units especially when it comes to the higher end customers in which I heard they do not charge a fee to, so Dish is doing nothing to compete against that other than charge more for a PVR unit in which has no monthly fee?


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## Geronimo

No word from the CEO probably means they have not gotten to it. I wish you all luck with this. I think it is fairly common knowledge already---and after all this is what wwas announced 2 1/2 years ago.

I also don't think it affects as many as you think so the E bay drop may not be as steep as you think. But what do i know. I am the one that thought the free protion would end as scheduled. lol


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## Scott Greczkowski

Geronimo, yes for some I agree it ends, but for some of us we got "lifetime" service, now that lifetime has ended 3 years later. Thats the reason we are upset.

I can tell you I WON'T be paying $9.95 service on my Dishplayers. 3 years later and the damn things are still not working correctly.

But at least I got my 721 and 6000 which have been very good to me (knock on wood)


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## Geronimo

I Do feel for all of you. But they told you that "lieftime" meant 36 months a long time ago. It is not news. 

But I will shut up. It is not too popular to point that out.


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## Bob Haller

You pete parker Geronimo?

I wonder why the E BAY price of DPs is so high. Who buys all them considering their track record?

I do prefer their interface to any other receiver I have seen. The upgradable swappable HD is another plus. But dependable it isnt...

Is it a hacker friendly unit?


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## Bill R

> _Originally posted by Geronimo _
> *I Do feel for all of you. But they told you that "lieftime" meant 36 months a long time ago. It is not news. *


I know you meant "life time" but "lie time" is really appropriate too. When I signed up for the "PTV lifetime special" I specially ASKED about how long the deal was for. I was told "as long as your DishPlayers are in service on this account". It was not until a few weeks latter that the deal was changed to "3 years, special expires June, 2003). THAT, and the fact that the DishPlayer STILL doesn't work the way it SHOULD is why so many of us are SO upset about having to pay $9.99 a month AGAIN.

I did get a message from Mark Cowen this afternoon saying that he was sorry that I had a bad experience with the Customer Service people but he did not say anything about the PTV fee.


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## JBKing

Geronimo, I understand what you are saying. ACtually, the last several months, I have been wondering if the $10 fee will be reinstated. If the DP worked properly, I would consider paying $10 a month, I did for a little while until the free offer was available. I bought a 2nd DP just to get the free PTV, yes knowing it was for a 3 year period, or however long was stated. Now, I can't do without PTV. But I WILL NOT pay $10 a month for something that doesn't work. In my opinion, the DP is in as bad a state as it ever has been, and as of today, it is not worth paying .01 extra a month for. Finally, E* has a terrible track record with the DP, why should any of us expect the DP to become semi-stable ever again?


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## Bob Haller

Can you imagine what the compressed guide is liable to do to this beast? Since that change was announced I figured the DPs days were numbered. 

Presently the guide is screwed and we have been doing it for over 4 years. 

So lets start a new designed compressed guide that has to work with all receivers out there?????

The more I think about it the more concerned I am.


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## Geronimo

I understand guys but the couple of weeks later was over 2 years ago. It was not right but you have known all this time that you had to pay in 03. You should havem been upset then.


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## Bob Haller

Hey pete, I think we know that by now....

Its a matter of principle, directly them selling damaged goods, a unreliable product.

I would hope everyone on a free PVR would get a nice upgrade offer. $99 for each of my DPs / 508 or $15o for a 721 would be fair.

I heard nce there are about 50,000 DPs still in service, I wonder how many are getting free pVR?


YES PETE WE KNEW THE OFFER WOULD END IN JUNE!!!!! 

Peete you need NOT tell us that again...


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## Geronimo

My name is not Peter. I don't call others by names they prefer not to use. I ask the same courtesy.

And why do you want to restrict this to those currently on free PTV (I assume that was what you meant) ? There are many DP owners paying today. What about them ? BTW the fee does not apply to 501s or 508s. But I asume you do want to extend your program to them.

With all due respect I don't think you understand what I was saying. I was not telling you that the original offer expires in May 03. What I am telling you is that we always knew that and I don't see why it is causing a stir now. There is a big difference.




As for me going on and on what about these threads? There is no news here. But everyone talks about how E* has don this horrible thing. If they did do a horrible thing they did it long agoo. But when I ask why you are surprised NOW I never get an answer. Just more harping about how you don't want to pay. I undersatand that ---so don't. But I agree there is no point in going on.


The offer is ending on it's scheduled date.





Good luck Mr. Haller. I hope you achieve what you want.:shrug:


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## Bob Haller

Sorry theres a peter parker saying muxch the same thing repetively at the other site. I think Bill R called you that here.

Why am I surprised? Because I didnt thinjk E would have the nerve to bring back a fee for a product thatr everyone knows is defective. 

I am surprised and saddened they havent offered a good upgrade path, given the long history of troubles with this receiver.

In short this fee returning brought to the surface my disatisfaction with dish and its support in this area... Or shall I say the lack of support and concern...

Wasnt there a class action suit over this receiver? Whatever happened to it?


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## Geronimo

Peace Bob. And all others. I don't think you understand even my comment about Peter Parker but so be it. I do use that name over there as I was not allowed to use this one. I did post there and felt I was misunderstood (I was accused of supporting E*) and answered that charge and tried to explain my viewpoint. If that is a crime I am guilty. 


I hold a minority view and clearly I am not expressing it properly. The fee has always been theree. I think it was naive to assume it would go away because an offer that SOME subs subscribed to was expiring. 

But it is clearly my fault that it is misunderstood. After all if NO ONE gets the point the messenger must be to blame. 

Perhaps you are referring to the CAL that MR. Collins tried to organize. I do not know what happened. I did not think it ever got off the ground. Maybe others can help.


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## Randy_B

I have an e-mail from 25 May 2000 from Amber in the E* executive offices that states explicitly that the free PTV was for the service life of the DishPlayer account as long as the new unit remains on the account (for new or existing customer if they added a new DP to the account during the promotion).

I'm going to call their offices after the holidays and fax them a copy of this e-mail. Hopefully they will do the right thing.


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## Bob Haller

Hey I would like to see that, any chance of scanning it and putting it up? Or faxc it to me and I will do the honors.


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## Bob Haller

Pete, I understand your point. I too was aware it wasnt forever. But given the never ending instabilty can you understand why were upset?

I too dont know how to make you understand...


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## Geronimo

Please call me Geronimo Mr. Haller. 

I do understand that you were upset and why. I posted once and then answered when my post was misunderstood. Perhaps I should have left it alone.


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## BobaBird

Geronimo, we aren't as upset about the end of the offer (depending on when we signed up, that is) as we are about the audacity of M$, and Dish going along with them, to charge a monthly use fee for features of a receiver they have not yet been able to make reliable.

Your point is understood. Our point is that no fee should be collected until the unit works properly. And even then they are still calling the use of DVR features a "service." These issues are independent of any promotion.

How exactly do you declare the winner of an argument when one side responds "the earth is round" every time the other says "the sky is blue"?


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## minnow

The monthly fee should of been dropped for everyone long ago. Those that failed to take advantage or for some reason were ineligable to get either the 3 year PTV or free for life PTV deal have probably felt that they were screwed over and a certain level of resentment may exist against those of us that do have either one of these deals. That could account for the defensive comments made by some defending the reinstatement of the monthly charge in June 2003. You know, "if I'm paying it then everyone should" mentality.


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## Joe Q

> Originally posted by minnow:
> *The monthly fee should of been dropped for everyone long ago. Those that failed to take advantage or for some reason were ineligable to get either the 3 year PTV or free for life PTV deal have probably felt that they were screwed over and a certain level of resentment may exist against those of us that do have either one of these deals. That could account for the defensive comments made by some defending the reinstatement of the monthly charge in June 2003. You know, "if I'm paying it then everyone should" mentality.*


Minnow:
I think you hit the nail right on the head! I think that's exactly what Geronimo is trying to say here.


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## Jacob S

I also think there should be a special offer for current dishplayer owners, but you can get a lot out of them on e-bay, maybe close to what you paid for it.

I do not see why it is such a problem for Dish and MS to getting the dishplayer to work. Dish got the 501, 508, 721 to work pretty stable.


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## Geronimo

I agree that the monthly fee SHOULD have been dropped but was not. When I referred to those who are paying it I did so to indicate that since the fee had not been waived for them it was ---in my opinion----unlikely that it would be waived for others when their free period expired. 

I never meant to cast dispersions on the motives of anyone or put words in their mouths. What one or two have posted seems to be doing that for me but perhaps I am misreading what they have written. So I won't put words in their mouths. 

All I have ever said is that this is no surprise. I have not defended E nor have I said anything about who should or should not pay the fee. I do understand why everyone including me is upset that it won't go away. I am just not surprised that it is not going away.


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## LarryS

I'd be interested in knowing for those who pay monthly DP PVR fees if when the DP failed to obtain a 7 day guide or got 1 minute recording or other failures of the promised PVR services. Did they get a credit for the fee upon calling a CSR?


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## Halfsek

> _Originally posted by cnsf _
> *
> 
> You can't pick on people's spelling and grammar around here....you'd be posting all day, every day.....
> 
> *


Class, today we'll learn how to diagram a 40 word sentence. I actually had to do that once. I had no idea what I was doing.

Actually, I just pointed out the your/ you're thing since it was being used in a complaint letter. I just wanted everything to look good.


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## minnow

> _Originally posted by Geronimo _
> All I have ever said is that this is no surprise. I have not defended E nor have I said anything about who should or should not pay the fee. I do understand why everyone including me is upset that it won't go away. I am just not surprised that it is not going away. [/B]


So why do you feel the need to keep restating your position over and over again on the newsgroups, DBSFORUMS and here then ???


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## Geronimo

In alt.dbs.echostar.com I posted twice. The second time was in response to a question posted in the thread and sent to me by e mail. I hardly think that constitutes repetive posting

Here and in DBSforums I posted my opinion and have responded only to mischaracterizations of what I posted. At no time did I attack another poster or their motives. 

Why am I posting now---because you asked me a question. If you did not ask it I would not have answered it.

And the last several posts have been in response to other characterizations which I felt were incorrect.

I will not post again.


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## Dennis

> _Originally posted by LarryS _
> *I'd be interested in knowing for those who pay monthly DP PVR fees if when the DP failed to obtain a 7 day guide or got 1 minute recording or other failures of the promised PVR services. Did they get a credit for the fee upon calling a CSR? *


It is hit or miss. CSR roulette I guess. It really depends on the severity of the issue. I have been offered free PVR and on one occasion free HBO for a month. On other occasions they have been less forthcoming with discounts.


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## Nick

_"I don't think this is fair"_

Stop whining about "fair." Fair has nothing to do with it. It is in your subscriber agreement (contract). By July, you will have enjoyed up to three years of free PTV service worth ~$360 to you. Soon it will be time to start paying the piper.

My two DPs have performed reasonably well the past 2.5 years. I have especially enjoyed the PTV features. I expect to begin paying for PTV service beginning in July or August 2003. and will continue until the 921 becomes available. At that time, I will say a tearful goodbye to the DishPlayer -- 
a marvelous machine that was ahead of its time.


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## minnow

Thats what makes the world og 'round. Some want something for nothing and others are willing to pay $$$ for nothing.


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## Jacob S

You have to think about it this way, you did not have to pay the full price of the unit as it would be if it did have lifetime PVR functionality as we see it on the 508, 721 right now, in which are priced higher as a result. You either pay for it now or later. I do think that there should be a trade in though to be allowed or an opportunity to buy the lifetime subscription on the unit, but for those that paid $99 just to pay for a lifetime subscription later, that is a rip and should have $99 deducted from that amount since they had received that already.


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## TNGTony

Nick,

I think the point that everyone is missing is that (at least in my case) them giving me free PTV was worth $1,450.00 a year to dish! If they won't give me $120 a year, I wont give them $1,450.00 back! I may pay a PTV service to some one else, but just to make the point, IT WILL NEVER BE TO DISH.

Yes...this is me talking. Had Dish EVER come up with a stable software package...MAYYYYbe.

See ya
Tony


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## Bob Haller

I still have heard NOTHING from [email protected] they really should at least acknowledge all mail, even if its just a canned response. We have received your mail and are looking into it.

Anyone else e mail that address? Any response?

My 721 is hosed by what i believe is the stuttering input bug, my one DP useless and off line, and my other DP a pain to use with the sync bug. The 508 is ok but I wonder what the next software upgrade will bring?


Tony just like you this is going top be a priinciple of the thing...

I wonder if Charlie has any idea of these troubles? I would go to CES JUST to tell him how it is!

Long term this kinda stuff will affect the bottom line...


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## TNGTony

Bob...everyone in the corporate world not directly involved with sales is on vacation until at least the second of January.

See ya
Tony


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## Bob Haller

Gee I would of thoiught that all positions would have staffing at all times...


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## Geronimo

Holiday seson shutdowns and/or liberal leave are not uncommon. Also a letter writing campaign is a double edged sword. If several people write at once with similar thoughts it may actually DELAY a response while the situation is reviewed.


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## Bob Haller

Thats fine but shouldnt e mail like this get canned response?

We have received your mail and are looking into it, please be patient for a few more days.

NO response may anger people who are already very upset.

I am patient and it doesnt matter. Just playing the devils advocatre here and was wondering if my mail somehow died in transit...


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## minnow

I too sent an email to [email protected] on 12/21 and have not gotten a reply.


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## DBSJedi

My letter to Dish:

As a longtime Dish Network customer... I am a Dishplayer 7100 owner and just heard about your idea to start charging $9.99/month for PVR service to your Dishplayer. I am writing to voice my complaint of this idea. When I purchased my Dishplayer over a year ago you had given me free PVR functionality. At the same time the Dishplayer has always been problematic. The latest problem I have noticed is when I fast forward on a previously recorded show, sometimes there is no sound and I have to back up and forward (sometimes several times) in order for the sound to click back on. This does not happen with my TiVo. Sometimes the screen will go black for a second with the Dishplayer. This has never been a problem with my old Dish Network 2700 receiver. Occassionally the Dishplayer will crash and reboot itself. I have not called your customer service line to complain because I see the free PVR functionality as a great offset. I can ignore these regular problems your Dishplayer exemplifies because I feel you are giving me a good value with the PVR functionality. I realize your software written by Microsoft that runs on the Dishplayer is buggy, but I have learned to live with it. Despite the glitches, I get good use out of my Dishplayer. I would just like you to reconsider your idea to start charging $9.99/month for PVR service. Why would you impose service fees for a receiver that gives many people, like myself headaches? I'm sure I am not alone in keeping quiet about the Dishplayer's problems because of your added incentive of free PVR service. Please don't take this away from us by charging $9.99/month. Thanks for listening.


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## Geronimo

I would guess that you will receive something like the canned reply Phil T was kind enough to cut and paste here. But perhaps the sheer volume of emails will lead to a different response.


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## Swampthing

Reading through this topic, it's mildly amusing how there seems to be an opinion that Dish is somehow pulling a fast one by "starting" to charge for the PVR service and simply because so many folks have coasted through the last three years on a free deal, they don't want it to end. Didn't you ever expect it to end? This reminds me of the folks who argue with store clerks to get the sale price on an item when the sale ended last week! How about those automobile warranties that allow full servicing until 50,000 miles. When the 50,000 miles is reached, should you deserve to get the service for free after that? It just doesn't work that way.

Believe it or not, there are alot of us who didn't grab those free deals and have willingly ante'd up the $9.99 a month for the past three years without whining. If Dish is willing to drop the fee across the board, that's fine and makes good business sense since there are no charges for the other recievers.

But Dish does not owe you any obligation to let you continue to get the deal for free... the sale ran out and that's just part of being a Dishplayer owner: There's a fee for PTV.


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## Guest

I dont know about everyone, but when I purchased my DishPlayer I was told, many many times, that it was free as long as the account remained active for the lifetime of the DP. I never received anything about 3 years, I never heard anything about 3 years until today. Frankly I dont care that its buggy, I dont care about any of these other issues. What I do care about is I was given a verbal contract by many people [never having received anything in writing] stating it was so. They are illegally breaking this contract. All other issues or sort of irrelevant to this one. Thats bad business, and opening yourself up to a lawsuit. It doesnt matter what you do after the fact. Of course the only real issue would be to refund the purchase price of the DP to those who bought it with this understanding. Which in the end doesnt actually solve the problem. Im sure Echostar wants these units gone, they are a pain in the ass, and never have worked right. Then again, I hear the same thing about their homegrown versions. I myself will probably wait until the HD Dishplayer becomes available next year [if/when?] and switch to that unit then.


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## JBKing

> _Originally posted by Swampthing _
> *But Dish does not owe you any obligation to do let you continue to get the deal for free... the sale ran out and that's just part of being a Dishplayer owner: There's a fee for PTV. *


Damn straight! .....if it WORKED RIGHT! I would pay the PTV fee if it worked as it is supposed to, but there probably isn't a single month gone by, that I haven't had SOME kind of problem with the DP. If the DP can't pick up the saturday morning All My Children for my wife not even 50% of the time, I'm not paying 9.95, 4.95, or even 0.02. How hard is that to understand? That alone is bad enough for me, but then you add blinkouts, 1 minute recordings, audio dropouts, garbled audio, lost audio. WTF pay one cent for this BS!??!

It doesn't matter if some people were told lifetime service, or 3 years, or until May 03. The DishPlayer PTV service doesn't work, and it's not worth paying for. If someone out there has been paying $10 a month for something that doesn't work properly, you've got more discretionary income than I!


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## firephoto

Ok I've read everything here and it was mentioned at least once about the dishplayer platform being a microsoft thing, but know one seems to be arguing about the role they have in this new fee.

I did some searching right now and didn't really find any details about the E* / microsoft partnership with the dishplayer, but I know that there was one. I would also imagine that there is a binding contract (an actual piece of paper not something verbal) that say E* is under obligation to start charging this fee where they haven't been for some of the current dishplayer customers.

I don't own a dishplayer, but these are just my thoughts on the subject. Is $9.99 to microsoft that much really? I mean it will be enhancing your multimedia experience you know. 

Tom
2003 resolution: Learn (more), use, function with Linux.


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## RodP

What is kind of funny?

The people that bought the DP and don't have PTV because of the monthly fee. They also have been battling the DP Problems. 

They are also effected with (No info / fail to load 3:00 am EPG, rebooting it self, VCR timers failing, blinkouts, stuck in the retrieving information screen, Swapped Video, Hard Drive crashes and ETC.

I have a mother in law that I sold one to. If this newest problem doesn't get fixed in about a week or so I will trade her out with a referb 501 / 508 which ever I have in my inventory at the time. 

BTW: There is a lot of consumers that don't know or are not going to even remember that there was a free period for PTV. It was the dealer / installer that usually activated these units the CSR never said anything about free until 2003. They said yes the qualify for PTV. Boy will the phones be ringing on that billing statement!!

Later Rod


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## Swampthing

JBKing... I understand where you are coming from if it DOESN'T WORK. But with three Dishplayers, I can probably count on one hand the number of times that something did not record correctly over the past three years through hundreds of recordings. My wife also tapes soaps everyday on one of the units and almost never misses an episode...

For me, my Dishplayers ARE WORKING. Nine times out of ten when I set it to record something, it's there. Sure glitches happen, twice in the past two years I lost everything I had recorded, but I'm sure you'll agree that if you balance the times things go right vs when they go wrong, you'll see the units aren't really that bad.

Honestly, which Dish product out there doesn't have bugs right now?


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## Bob Haller

Well one of my 2 DP is UNUSABLE right now, I took it off the account because of the bugs. The other guide is OK but stuttering and a occasional messed recording. Some work some dont. Be areful saying mine works the next software upgrade may hose your unit I have over the years lost tons of recordings and keep a chart of reset codes. 

If your car peroduically required you putting it in diagnostic modes and resetting things would you not be upset?

I hoinestly dont want to leave E. My D line of site will be a pain, intergration with SA a HUGE HASSLE! Some channels jen likes are only on E. All these and more reasons to stay. But its the PRINCIPLE OF THE THING!

But its the principle of the thing....


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## Wedgecon

I have been going back and forth with echostar on this issue and they are not willing to budge. As far as they are concerned it boils down to this:

1) They are going to charge the $9.00 fee no matter how many people complain. They admitted getting lots of calls and e-mails on this issue but are not going to do anything about it.

2) They consiser the 508 receiver to be a vast improvement over the displayer and see no reason why I should not pay $199.00 for it. 

3) There will never be any deals for current subscribers on the 721. 

I finally got tired of of all the BS and have purchased a DirecTivo. I will cancel my dish account once the DirecTivo is up and running. I told Echostar this and they did not even make an attmept to keep me as a customer. I have been a customer for almost 5 years, but they pretty much said said I am only paying $42.00 a month that they were losing money on my account and would not be sorry to see me go..


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## Swampthing

I think we're focusing on two different issues: equipment and PTV. Admittedly, the Dishplayer has some serious bugs in the hardware and that seems to be where the biggest gripe with Echostar lies... and that's why you feel they don't deserve the $9.99 per month. But Dish isn't charging the $9.99 per month for the hardware, it's only to use the PTV feature which has performed fairly well overall. On Dishplayer we have the benefit of having the Event based timer (which none of the other receivers have), the ability to upgrade our hard drive, as well as joint software development of the PTV feature with Microsoft to pay for. Asking folks to continue to pay the fee for a feature which has worked mostly as expected doesn't seem that bad to me. I suspect Dish keeps the fee going because it generates a decent amount of cash to justify continued software upgrades coming. How long could we expect software development to continue if the fee was discontinued?

What I don't understand are the folks who have Dishplayers but don't want the PTV feature enabled at all. Why not just get another non-PTV Dish receiver instead?


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## minnow

And what software upgrades are you refering too ? You mean the majority of downloads that are "fixes" for the all the bugs and glitches caused by the previous bug and glitch "fix". Why the hell should anyone with a Dishplayer have to pay $10.00 per month to subsidize E* to make their receiver work as originally designed. It's not as if were getting magical and wonderful new features with each new software download. You need to stop waving those E* pom pom's so vigorously in front of your face as it's seriously interferring with your ability to see the truth !


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## Swampthing

E* pom poms?? Me??? LOL. Take a read through my old posts if you think I'm an Echostar banner waver... 

You aren't paying for bug-free hardware, much as you think you should be. Let's be realistic. In this "get-it-to-the-market-asap" mentality we live with, just how many electronic products and/or software on the market have been released bug-free? 

The $9.99 is strictly for PTV and that portion of the Dishplayer works fairly well, which by now you would have long ago dumped your Dishplayer if it hadn't. Why ***** and moan about paying for PTV on a receiver you believe is substandard bottom of the barrel anyway? If it is the HARDWARE that is bothering you so terribly, nothing is forcing you to keep the Dishplayer for PTV when there are other receivers out there that will do it for free.

Those of us who have paid the $9.99 a month for the past three years have learned to accept the fee and felt that the cost is worth the features you get on the Dishplayer. Now when the new 921 comes out, who knows? But for right now, I can't upgrade to another receiver that doesn't have EVENT based timers.


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## JBKing

> _Originally posted by Swampthing _
> *But Dish isn't charging the $9.99 per month for the hardware, it's only to use the PTV feature which has performed fairly well overall.*


!rolling :rotfl:

:scratch: HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT????? :hair:

Maybe for you, and if so, God bless you! But for the other 95% of us, what about missed events, 1 minute recordings, 44 hour EPG instead of 7 day (which supposedly is part of the monthly 'fee') ?

:shrug:


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## Dennis

Swampthing the bottom line is that people are angry. Unfortuantely they do not want to listen to anything else. The E pom pom thing has been raised before about others who had opinions different than the way the thread seems to be going. Is it a fair accusation---no. But it is a waste of time to argue with people in this frame of mind.


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## Swampthing

And just how many recordings have gone right for you? You have to balance out the figures... This reminds me of airplane crashes where suddenly everyone thinks it's unsafe to fly because the ones that happen are publicized so widely. What about the thousands of flights that go off each day glitch free? We are so fickle that we immediately forget everything that went right when one thing goes wrong...

However, if such a large percentage of your Dishplayer experience has been so terribly painful, why the hell would you argue to keep using the Dishplayer for PTV anyway? This part of the argument here is making no sense to me at all. Why on God's Green Earth would anyone want to beg Dish to stop the fee so that you can continue to keep a piece of hardware you think absolutely sucks?
Can someone explain that to me?


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## JBKing

It doesn't matter how many recordings have recorded without a hitch. It only takes one 'must see' recording to get lost and you have one very unhappy DP owner, considering all the other BS we have gone through. 

Actually, we have all payed for the PTV service anyway. Either monthly, the $99 offer, or upfront. I bought a 2nd DP when the 'free' PTV offer was available. But the MSRP was higher at that point than when PTV was being charged monthly. The PTV was upfront; discounted perhaps, but still there.

I've said before, when the DP works properly, it is the greatest invention since color TV. I think most people will agree to that, or PTV in general, anyway. We know the capability of the DP and that is why we get so aggravated when it doesn't work. I couldn't live without PTV anymore. It drives me crazy to go somewhere else and watch something 'live' or not even be able to pause or rewind. As far as why I haven't jumped ship yet, the DP was very stable for me just months ago. Not for everybody, but it seemed most people were having little if any problems with the DP at that time. I was one happy camper. But now I'm back to an unstable and unreliable POS. Sure, being that I am not paying a monthly fee, makes me somewhat more accepting, but if I'm told I will have to pay $10 a month for something that doesn't work properly, I will then jump ship either to a 508/721 or most likely DirecTiVo. There are far fewer complaints on the DirecTiVo than 501/508 and 721. I believe that is something that Charlie and E* haven't realized. Sure, there are maybe 50K-100K legal Dishplayers out there, so we are a small percentage and don't really matter. He would prefer to get rid of all the DP's out there. Actually, that WOULD be in their best interests. And I would estimate that 99% of those 50K-100K subs would gladly stay with E* if there was an acceptable upgrade option for us. But considering the grief we have gone through with the DP, $199 for the 1st 508 and then $299 for additional ones, or a staggering $649 for each 721 just won't get it. Just a month or so ago, I was offered to go to a 508 for $99, but additional 508s would be $299. No way. Now $99 each, they may have a deal. Otherwise.....

I'm wondering if this isn't a ploy by Charlie to get rid of all the DP's and just bite the bullet. He would prefer to lose X number of customers rather than give an acceptable upgrade/tradein offer.


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## Joe Q

Swapthing:
It's nice to hear that your DP's have been stable and have not been giving you any problems lately. But, that's not been the case for many (if not most) of us here in this thread.

Charging a fee and making us pay for a PTV service that doesn't work properly is wrong. I don't care what you think or what you say. They've had almost 4 years to try to get the DP stable (and get it working right) and yet have still been unable.

To re-instate the $9.95 a month PTV fee when they know the service isn't working properly, (the way that it's really supposed to) and then to make us suffer through and continue to put up with other continuous DP problems also (all the time) is not fair.

And that's exactly what they've done. And that's exactly what they're still continuing to do to us here. And that exactly what the point is in all this.... *It's not worth paying an extra $10 a month for a PTV service that doesn't work the way that it's really supposed to.*

Many of the people who have responded here in this thread, (and in similar type threads in the other forums) are in one accord and are in total agreement on this. PTV for the majority of us, doesn't work the way that's it's supposed to, and as long as it doesn't, we shouldn't have to pay for it.

And at this point, I don't think they're even going to put in the effort (that they should) to try to fix this problem and make it right. They've had almost 4 years to try to fix the DP and make it work right. (and they've still been unsuccessful) If they haven't been able to fix all the problems by now, what makes me think they're going to do anything different this time, to try to make it work right now?

Judging from all the responses here and in the other forums, if the PTV fee is re-instated, many of us will either leave or upgrade to other E* products. The people who are left, (the one's who choose to remain and continue to use the DP) will be the one's who will have to foot the bill for all future DP support via the $9.95 a month PTV fee.

Any who have decided and have made that choice, should have no problem with that. They know what's going on, and they've made the decision that they're going to stick with the DP despite what everyone else says. So, there should be no problem with E* collecting the money they need to help pay for continued DP support. The people who choose to stay with and continue to use their DP's, will be the one's who will have to pick up the tab, and will have to foot that bill.

Personally, that's something I'm not going to do, so I'll be moving on if the PTV fee is re-instated next year.


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## JBKing

I would wager that this is the end of the line for the DP. Bill R is reporting that there is an upgrade in the works. But I'm sure this upgrade was unplanned and only a band aid for whatever went wrong with the EPG changes recently enacted.

Once the DP is semi-stable ...... :lol: you can forget anymore upgrades. I would think E* is hoping to get rid of most of the legal DP's by reinstating the monthly fee.

BillR, any thoughts?


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## Swampthing

Joe Q... The PTV fee is NOT being "reinstated;" your blue light special is just running out. The fee has ALWAYS been there, and myself, as well as many others who didn't get the deals have been paying it every single month for the past three years. But there's also a $5.00 per month discount if you are a WebTV subscriber. Given that we've been paying the fee and you haven't, should we think we were somehow screwed over? When you signed up for the three year deal, what made you think you should be entitled to anything more than that? Perhaps it's that wonderful society we live in now where if anything goes wrong with a particular product, consumers today demand it be given to them FOR FREE.

As I've asked before, Joe Q, if you feel the Dishplayer hardware is so doggone terrible, why are you sticking with this receiver for PTV all these years? Yes, occasionally bugs show up... but there must be some reason you haven't dumped the Dishplayer before now, right? Why haven't you jumped to the other Dish PVRs out there if you feel the Dishplayer is such utter trash?


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## minnow

Swapthing said "If it is the HARDWARE that is bothering you so terribly, nothing is forcing you to keep the Dishplayer for PTV when there are other receivers out there that will do it for free".

NO, I already bought a receiver. Your out of your gord to even suggest that this is what Dishplayer owners should do. WE bought the DP under good faith - - that this receiver worked like it was advertised by E* to do. When E* put thsi receiver up for sale there was no mention, nay a whisper about how this product was really not ready for mass sale. WE all bought a defective product and 4 years later, IT'S STILL DEFECTIVE!!!! Now to add insult to injury, E* want's to start charging $10.00 a month to continue this debacle. And your answer is for DP owners to spend more good money to fix THEIR mistake. Get Real.


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## minnow

Swampthing said "The fee has ALWAYS been there, and myself, as well as many others who didn't get the deals have been paying it every single month for the past three years."

And there you have it folks. "The I'm paying for it and you should to defense." That explains it all. Don't blame us because you didn't get take advantage of the free PTV or $99/3 year deal. 
You've lost all credibilty.


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## Swampthing

Right minnow, and you DEMAND that PTV be given to you for free simply because YOUR sale price ran out, right? Let all the other folks who have been charged all along, continue to be charged for PTV right? Just give a freebie to you and the other folks whose deal is about to run out, right? Last I checked it didn't say the three year deal was conditional dependant upon Echostar providing you with bug free software... Your simply angry because you gotta pay for something that you had previously gotten free, that's all. 

Sure... that makes complete sense.

PS... and again, I gotta ask... why did you keep the Dishplayer for four years if you felt it is, and always has been, such a bottom of the barrel piece of crap? Why argue to keep the fee free on a receiver you have undeniable utter hatred for?


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## minnow




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## Joe Q

Look Swapthing,
I could argue with you about this forever. But, I'm not going to. The bottom line is, you and a few others here are satisfied with the way the DP functions and works. The rest of us (probably most of us) are not satisfied.

I'm assuming you (and those who feel the same way that you do) are going to stay with the DP and continue to pay $9.95 a month for PTV. If that's what you want to do, fine. I have no problem with that.

But those of who are unhappy about all this, we probably won't pay. Some of us will probably upgrade to another E* PVR and some of us will probably switch over to DirecTV and get an Ultimate TV or a DirecTivo.

Now let's take a look at UTV. It's basically the same product as the DP, only it has a few more features. You could probably call it the second generation DP. How come it works fine and the DP doesn't?

You would figure just the opposite, considering UTV has dual tuners and a bigger hard drive. I wouldn't mind paying the $9.95 a month fee for UTV, because it's stable and it works properly.

But, the DP does not. It's nothing but an undependable, unreliable, dysfunctional POS. The thing has never worked right since I first got it.

Why have I stuck with it for so long? Because I paid $99 for 3 years of PTV, that's why. Plus, I moved earlier this year and all the DirecTivo specials were gone by the time I found my new place.

That's the only reason I'm still a Dish Network customer. Dish relocated me to my new place this past June. I had to agree to another one year agreement and I'm committed to Dish till at least next June.

If they tell me I have to pay $9.99 a month for PTV when my current 3 year special ends, I'm not going to pay it. It's as simple as that. I'll switch over to DirecTV and get a DirecTivo. I won't mind paying them $4.99 for their Tivo service. It's dependable, reliable and everything PTV isn't.

For the price, the DirecTivo blows the DP away. It has dual tuners, is feature rich and has a bigger hard drive. Tivo service is 10X better than PTV. It works right and it's worth $4.99 a month.

And with the programming that I'll be subscribing to, I won't even have to pay the $4.99 a month fee. It will be waived once my programming is turned on. It's a no-brainer for me to just go ahead and switch.

It's too bad Dish couldn't straighten out all these DP problems. I probably wouldn't even consider switching, if they could only get this thing to work right.

But, I'm not going to argue with you about that. You don't mind paying the $9.99 a month for PTV, and I do. That's the bottom line. You're going to pay it, and I won't. That's the only difference between me and you.

You can argue or say whatever else you want to say about all this, but that's the only thing that matters to me. You're willing to pay the $9.95 a month PTV fee, and I'm not. Period. End of story.


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## Dennis

Minnow pointing out that the fee has always been there is not necessarily "The I'm paying for it and you should to defense." as you would call it. 

Perhaps Swampthing was pointing it out because people keep insisting that it is a new fee. Earlier in the thread you insisted you knew it but then , in a separate thread, asked if new DP owners have to pay the fee.

Perhaps he was simply stating a fact. That is no more de facto evidence of sour grapes on his part than this thread is evidence that the rest of you onmy vcared about the fee when it applied to you---another unfair insult throwen around in this thread.

Let's be real. This is a community but sometimes members of a community disagree. Attacking the position of others is fair but attacking their motives is not necessarily fair.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Again when I purchased my Dishplayer, I was told (and it was being advertised) that the special was a lifetime subscription to the Dishplayer PVR service, not 1 year, not 2 years and not 3 years, but LIFETIME.

That is what some folks are failing to understand.


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## craig559

The wierd thing is in all this is, I was one of the original DP owners and was told the PVR features would be free and then later learned they would cost me! Then dish tryed to pasify us early adopters and offer only the pause feature. When the PVR functions were activated there was no more constant stabolity with the DP. Then the class action stuff started and mysteriously stopped. Logendraven over at Dishplayerx could probably explain the history of it all. But to put it mildly DP owners got scewed. I activated my total PVR functions in June and it has been a nitemare ever since and I will be canceling soon if not fixed!!! I have been with Dish since almost the start and I guess it has been a misguided loyalty that has kept me there and unfortunatly I am at the end of my rope and probably will be jumping ship. Not only because of the DP problems , but also CS and billing problems. They just do not seem to care anymore!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Dennis

I don't doubt what you are saying Mr. Greczkowski but it does not change the fact that the fee has been there for sometime or that Mr. Minnow and Mr. Thing should think twice about questioning one another's motives as opposed to the facts or opinions they stated.

If there were advertisements describing lifetime PVR----and if you say there were I believe you----I certainly hope that you have communicated your dissatisfaction to Echostar. I certainly think that anyone who signed up then has a gripe. But I also think that the fee is not new. Because it isn't.


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## Swampthing

Joe Q... The sale is over! To quote you it's the "end of story." After July 2003 you can either ante up the $9.99 per month, move on to another PTV receiver, or leave Dish altogether. Those are your ONLY choices. It doesn't matter whether you agree with me, others in this thread, or are against everyone on this issue... that still WILL NOT change Echostar's mind about resuming the $9.99 charge when your three year deal expires.

Unless Echostar plans to wipe out the fee across the board, it doesn't make any sense for them to allow a select portion of customers to continue to receive PTV for free after the deal expires.

I never said I was completely satisifed with Dishplayer. I'll be the first to admit there are tons of bugs in the system that keep appearing left and right with new upgrades; however, right now it's the only receiver that offers me the most value and flexibility for my money so that's why I stick with them.

If you truly believe that Dishplayer is "nothing but an undependable, unreliable, dysfunctional POS. The thing has never worked right since I first got it," then I would hardly recommend keeping the receiver even if Dish DID decide to eliminate the fee! Why continue to put yourself through such obviously agonizing stress when you can just get a different PTV receiver or go with TIVO instead.

Regarding how long the Dishplayer free PTV deal was supposed to last, here's the URL for a thread off alt.dbs.echostar back in 2000 which talks about how it was only a 3 year deal: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...elm=sp13jmrn63a70%40corp.supernews.com&rnum=2

PS... By the way, Joe Q and minnow, it's Swampthing not Swapthing which you've written several times now. There's no need to resort to childish name distortions here just to attempt to be funny. Let's keep this debate on a mature level, ok?


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## firephoto

Hello again

This is a rather interesting discussion here.

Does anyone know, for a fact, who holds the rights (or whatever you want to call it) to the software that is on the dishplayer?

Does anyone know where this $9.99 fee actually ends up? Echostar? microsoft? I know you send your money to E* but does anyone know that this amount or a great portion of it doesn't just get passed on to microsoft?

I would guess that depending on how involved microsoft might be in this matter, E* might not be allowed to speak much about the details of this $9.99 fee. If this is all E* then I would see no reason why they would be charging for this service (ptv) and not the service on the 501/508/721 (pvr).

JoeQ said earlier:
"Now let's take a look at UTV. It's basically the same product as the DP, only it has a few more features. You could probably call it the second generation DP. How come it works fine and the DP doesn't?"

Ok it is basicly the same product, except for the fact that is clearly visible on the utv web page that says "UltimateTV from Microsoft ".

Does microsoft provide support for your dishplayer? Has anyone questioned them about this new fee? Does Mr. Bill buy toys with the $9.99 from everyone?

It just seems to me that some are being a little harsh towards E* over this dishplayer issue when there very well could be more to it that can be said by E* in replys to upset customers.

Just some thougts.

Tom


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## Geronimo

Ther actually is some debate about how much software support and upgrades still come from Microsoft. But it has been reported in these forums that half of the fee goes to Microsoft. I cannot verify this. I am simply passing on what I have read and identifying it as such.

I hope that helps in some small way.


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## Jacob S

I think that it is not completely fair to charge $10 for the PTV PVR service if it does not work correctly.

I also remember when it was said ''free lifetime pvr service'' then later saying 3 years pvr service.


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## minnow

Swampthing;

I don't recall anyone here making the statement that the PVR fee should be be dropped ONLY for those that currently have the free for PVR or 3 yearfor $99. The fee should be dropped for EVERYONE. Is that why you're is disagreement with the majority of us on this issue ? Can you quote the poster that said this ?


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## Bob Haller

Gee this was a busy place yesterday. I hung on with the DP because of the upgradable HD, and really nice user interface. Why E didnt start with a nicer interface on the 508 and 721 is a mystery to me. Like the lack of names on the to be recodered 721. geez who was braindead on that. I am unhappy and now think E is using upgrades as a cover for poor design. My 721 worked better out of the box than it does today with the exception of the drop to live bug when a timer fires.

Well when you combine these issues with the kick to the groin on the DP fees I think E has lost ts way. Stuff like this is going to come back and bite them bad. If this stands they will be permanetely trashed on the internet and by every unhappy sub.

For me I will leave, based n the poor realiblity of their new products and their lack of care for custmer retention. I encourage EVERYONE who attends CES to stop by and give Charlie a look at this issue.


I believe he has lost touch with his company. How many here want to try and slip a DP call by the screeners for the next chat? 

I have heard theres a service where by you send a reguistered letter that MUST be sined by no one ther than the recipent. Maybe that would work.

Its sad I am going to burn my E pom poms


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## JBKing

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *Its sad I am going to burn my E pom poms *


:eek2:


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## Joe Q

> Originally posted by Bob Haller:
> *Its sad I am going to burn my E pom poms*


Don't burn them, Bob....

give them to Swampthing. 

He's doing a fine job here waiving his E* Pom Pom's, maybe he deserves a promotion. 

You used to be E*'s biggest Pom Pom waiver, now maybe the torch should be passed on to Swampthing. 

I'm sure he'll accept the mantle from you and carry on the tradition with honor, grace and dignity. 

He truly is deserving of such an honor. (if you ask me) 

Congratulations Swampthing, you are now officially E*'s biggest Pom Pom waiver. 

***Disclaimer Below***

:hi: *SMILE SWAMPTHING, I'M ONLY KIDDING*


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## Bob Haller

yeah his rose colored glasses are pretty..... Dark so he cant see the problem...


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## Geronimo

It is somerwhat at odds with other correspondence. I am not sure what to make of that. It is clearly a form response as it does not relate directly to the email I sernt them. But here it is.

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,

Thank you for your e-mail regarding the 3 year PTV promotion on the DISHPlayer. I understand your concern over the possible monthly charge for the PTV service that you have received with no monthly charge for the past two and a half years. You are correct that the promotion was originally scheduled to expire in June, 2003. However, at this time no decision has been made to end or extend the PTV promotions for DISHPlayer customers. Currently, there is no new information available regarding the DISHPlayer PTV promotion. However, I will add your e-mail address to our DISHPlayer PTV Customer List to ensure that you are kept informed of any planned changes to the DISHPlayer PTV services. This list will allow us to keep you informed of new information regarding the PTV promotions for DISHPlayer in the quickest possible fashion.

In the meantime, I will forward your concerns to our Executive Team for consideration. Your views are an important concern to DISH Network as we plan future promotions and services. I apologize for any inconvenience caused by any issues you may have experienced with the DISHPlayer. We continue to resolve issues and improve the PTV service through the release of new software upgrades.

Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns.

Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have any further questions or concerns, please refer to www.dishnetwork.com or reply to this email.

Sincerely,

Lora Z.

DISH Network eCare


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## Phil T

I think our e-mails may be making them re-think the fees and the resulting loss of customers.  

Your response is certainly different from the one I posted earlier in the thread.


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## Geronimo

As I said I do not know how to read it. It is different than you reported and I find it both amusing and unfortunate that it does not really relate to the email I sent them. I have no idea if they actually READ the emails.


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## Swampthing

minnow... Many of the posts here say that Dish should "remain" free, the fee should not be "reinstated," etc. These statements imply that either some folks here are unaware that Dish has been charging folks all along, or simply don't care and want "their" deal extended.

Joe Q... Pom poms, eh? LOL. Next time do a little more research on my posts so you don't end up with so much egg on your face.

Sorry I took so long to post... I was busy arguing with a clerk to get a sale on something that ended last week, and when they declined I demanded I be given the item for free or else I would shop elsewhere! Alas, they simply laughed in my face.* 

***Disclaimer Below***



*SMILE JOE Q, I'M ONLY KIDDING! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jacob S

How about them charging for the fees ($10/mo) with a year contract if they just give you a replacement unit for a small fee such as $99, would anybody be up for that deal if that came about?


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## Geronimo

I am not sure I understand that deal. Am I paying $99 plus $10 a month for a different PVR or am I paying for the DP but get a replacement of sdome kind if I have a problem?


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## Joe Q

Swampthing:
You sound like a broken record. You keep saying the same legalistic thing over and over and over again. You completely miss the whole point of what this is really all about.

The DP is buggy, dysfunctional and doesn't work the way that's it's supposed to. (a lot of the time) It's unstable, it's undependable, it's unreliable, it doesn't function properly. That's what we're upset about. That's why we don't want to pay the $9.95 a month for PTV.

I understand in the situation that you're currently in, you have no choice in the matter. You have to pay the $9.95 a month PTV fee.

You admit that the DP DOES have some bugs, and you admit that the DP DOES have some annoying problems, but yet, you say you have no problem paying them for a service that doesn't work the way that it's really supposed to.

*What is wrong with an attitude like that?*

Your tolerance and acceptance of all these problems and your attitude of complacency towards them only serves to perpetuate this ugly situation.

It's only been our constant griping and complaining that's caused Echostar to finally get off their lazy asses and do something about all these problems.

If we hadn't a griped so loud, we'd probably still be wallowing in a lot of the annoying, aggravating problems that we had in the past. It seems sometimes, complaining is the only thing that Echostar understands, and it's the only way to get them to respond.

It'd be nice if you were part of the solution here, and not part of the problem. Your attitude of acceptance and complacency is detrimental, and it hurts the rest of us.

Your willingness to accept the DP the way that it is (with all it's bugs and it's flaws), and your willingness to still be willing to pay the $9.95 a month fee for it is stupid. Why would anyone want to continue to pay a fee for something that was so buggy, undependable and unreliable?

But yet, that's exactly the attitude that you choose to have. Anyone who reasons and thinks like that is foolish. (if you ask me) But, that's just my opinion.

Wouldn't you rather see the PTV fee totally removed, or possibly be reduced in half at the very least, if that were possible?

That's what we're trying to do here. That's the whole purpose of us doing, all that we're doing here. And, we're not doing it just for those of us who got free PTV, or just for those of us who got 3 years for $99. We're doing it for everybody. We're doing it for all DP user's who subscribe to PTV. (even you Swampthing) 

So, why don't you have a change of heart and start being part of the solution and stop being part of the problem. I'm sure all your other fellow DP user's here (and in the other forums) would appreciate it.


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## firephoto

JoeQ said:
"The DP is buggy, dysfunctional and doesn't work the way that's it's supposed to. (a lot of the time) It's unstable, it's undependable, it's unreliable, it doesn't function properly. That's what we're upset about. That's why we don't want to pay the $9.95 a month for PTV."

If the product is so bad why do you still have it? And for others, who have said they have it in there closet or wherever but not in use, why get so upset?

No one is making you pay that fee, in fact it is your given right not to pay the fee. If you want PTV though, and there will be a fee for it, then you will have to pay up.

I had an HP flatbed scanner a few years ago, the 5100 or something that wasn't cheap, and I didn't use it much but one day when I went to use it, it didn't work. After some searching I discovered that most of this model had bad logic circuits. Mine had lasted more than a lot, but there wasn't anything I could get for free from HP. It turned out to be a bad product in the end. When it worked, it worked as advertised, and when it failed, it didn't work so well. In the end I didn't demand HP give me a replacement I simply threw it in the trash. Cost? $100 a year for that scanner probably.
You get what you pay for, and that doesn't mean you get better for more money. It means you get what you get. There are good things, and there are bad things but nothings is free.

Maybe I can get someone at General Motors to replace my '76 Vega if I complain to the CEO loud enough? hmmmm

Tom

(and no I don't, or will I ever, own a Vega!  )


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## Bob Haller

Ahh the DIFFERENCE is that E downloaded defective software that caused the malfunction! REPEATEDLY!

If GM sent out a radio signal that causes your car to die then GM should be on the hook for repairing it. If ike E they cant get it right then they should replace the vehicle...


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## Jacob S

It it not about wear and tear or wearing out of the product, it is about how instable the product is in the first place. It should not have to be replaced every year or two. 

Tell me this, if you get a new dishplayer that has never been used before and it takes the software download that is current, what do you think it will happen? Do you think because it is new that it will work correctly? No because it is the software or the product that is the trouble, not normal wear and tear and wearing out of the product.


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## firephoto

LoL

DIFFERENCE yes. GM puts engines in its cars, thats the nature of the product. E* does send things via radio to your dishplayer because again, thats how it works. What if E* had never updated the software in your DP? I would guess that it has more "features" now due to new software. (or did it "enhance your experience"?) Yes maybe they are buggy, but you know what. How many Windows updates have you had that don't have other negative effects? That is a software update situation that is very well known to a lot of computer users. So the nature of things is that if it gets software updates, then it will have new problems or quirks come up all the time. Now since the software is a microsoft thing (correct me if that's wrong), and E* isn't partnered with them anymore do you really think that either of them is going to make the DP into a perfect unit? I don't think they will.
I also don't think E* will charge the fee unless they HAVE too, but my guess is that Charlie's signature is on the bottom of something that has Mr. Bill's sig there too. I look at the DP as being similar to a consumer PC. Someone puts the hardware together and it's someone else's software running on it, but for software support the hardware vendor is the first point of contact, or in the DP case the only point of contact.

And not get off topic but.... the wear and tear thing doesn't apply to my GM comment. Vegas were lemons. Plastic has come a long ways though, maybe GM can give that engine another try.  I would have said Ford and Edsels but that was WAY before my time. lol


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## Bob Haller

I saw a friend today, I sold him dish years ago. He reported his wife wants to get rid of the thing. Its a DP. I am sorry I sold any of them...

Suggested she e mail complaint.

They have no guide info bug and say pause is flakey. They dont have PVR, having tried they never quite got the concept.

Dish will loose another sub I wonder if they care???


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## djlong

firephoto:

If Dish LEFT THE SOFTWARE ALONE at the time I bought it, I'd be happier. It worked. Mostly. A few quirks here and there.

Then (not in any particular order) the LIL debacle, the EPG debacle, the manual timer debacle, the no sound debacle, the chittering sound debacle and now the pic-no-sound-then-no-pic debacle!!

After 3 years of software revisions, it should be working better, if not perfect. With the exception of Windows ME, this is the only product I've owned that got worse with time! (And winME was ONE release, not a whole series of "we'll fix it in the next release" promises followed up with the 'fix' breaking something else!)

I write software for a living. If I was responsible for this crap, I'd be unemployed!


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## firephoto

Software......
Do you blame Dell, Gateway, Compaq, HP, Micron, etc. when a windows update screws things up????

I really think the finger pointers are pointing in the wrong direction in regards to the software issues. I've just been trying to point this possibility out, along with some contracts that may exist that bind E* to certain things.

If you were a big player in operating system software, you too could write this "crap" as you put it, and make a living at it.


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## BobaBird

firephoto was the most recent to ask:
"If the product is so bad why do you still have it?"

- I've already sunk a lot of money into it and would have to spend more on a replacement.
- PTV pre-paid through 6/03 (yes, I sold out on my principles).
- Limited name-based recording makes better event timer management possible.
- PIP and/or sound on most menu screens.
- Master channel list.

The list is shrinking but the DP does a few things that E's home-grown DVRs still do not.

Also, to own a DP is to understand what a love/hate relationship with a product is. The record feature is hobbled unless you subscribe to the information service. The UI is attractive but cumbersome to navigate. You don't have to fiddle with tapes but the HD doesn't have enough capacity to hold more than a few days of shows (ymmv). It's frustrating to see so much unrealized potential but I can't even recall what is left on my wish list because I can't rely on being able to use what it has now.


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## Lee L

> _Originally posted by firephoto _
> *Software......
> Do you blame Dell, Gateway, Compaq, HP, Micron, etc. when a windows update screws things up????
> 
> I really think the finger pointers are pointing in the wrong direction in regards to the software issues. I've just been trying to point this possibility out, along with some contracts that may exist that bind E* to certain things.
> 
> If you were a big player in operating system software, you too could write this "crap" as you put it, and make a living at it. *


The thing is, you are technically buying software made by one company and hardware by another. Yes, the hardware co is acting as an agent and selling the SW but they are seperate entities and you can buy additional or different software to install/uninstall as you see fit.

With a DP or any other satellite receiver, you are buying one unit that is supposed to perform a certain task or tasks. Whether the engineers decide to perform a certain function of the device in ROM, RAM or from the hard drive is of no concern to you and you certainly can't decide to install another type of SW on the DP in hopes that you can get better results. E* is the sole source of responsibility to the end user for the DP.

I am a general contractor, if we have a subcontractor that does not perform, we do not owe the owner any less than what is spelled out in the contract with them. If we have to spend more money to hire another sub to finish the work, it is up to us to work things out and pay the additional costs if necesary, we certaily don't go back to the owner and tell them that sorry, instead of the nice marble floor you paid to go in the lobby of your building, you are getting linoleum instead becuase our marble guy just couldn't get the job done right.


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## Bob Haller

Besides with other software you can go back to the previous one...

Not so with Dish


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## craig559

all this dicussion and we all are forgeting the pvr features were sold as a free service


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## Bob Haller

Well I learned something interesting today. My good buddys wife sent a email to [email protected] at my suggestion since their DP is nearly unusable. 

She got a INSTANT response back. Here are the mails She forwared them on to me.

I am writing because of my extreme unhappiness with one of our Dish receivers. Its a dishplayer. For the entire time we have owned it its had various problems and lately its gotten worse. A friend who used to be a dealer and sold us dish originally has been trying to help us, but every day we have no guide. We have become a expert in entering trouble codes and such. Long delays while the thing tries to load the guiide. Sometimes it tries again and again.

Well the rest of our family has decided they want a new receiver, and they want a new system from direct tv. I personally like dish and want to keep it. We have gotten great use from the pause feature on the dishplayer.

I did hear about the $199 offer for a 508. But everyone else here is mad at dish, because and I must agree the dishplayer has never worked well. They are afraid we will get stuck with another piece of dish junk ( their words )

I have heard this address can get things done. 

Honestly if you cant help us get a new receiver for free or really cheap I will be forced to go along with the family decision to try direct tv and their direct tivo that a neighbor has. Our friend say they have never had a problem. Sure wish we could say the same for our receiver. We definetely want a pvr. 

Please let us know soon, my family is missing lots of tv while watching that green bar creep across the screen, yours truly dorothy krepp 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

!!!!!!!!!!!!HEY THEY ARENT ON VACATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mrs. xxxxx,

Thank you for your email. Please call me at toll free (866. I am in the office from 7AM - 3:30PM MST Monday through Friday. I will be out of the office on New Years day. We have downloaded software version 1.20 for the DishPlayer receivers. If this software didn't correct the guide issue, here is a temporary work around:

These steps should be done at night after the customer is done watching TV for the night. 

· Turn off the unit 

· Press Option, then 7225000, front panel lights should cascade 

· LEAVE THE RECEIVER TURNED OFF (in standby, not unplugged) ALL NIGHT (VERY IMPORTANT) 

· When the receiver is turned back on in the morning and the full 7-day EPG should be available. 

· If this doesn't work the first night, try again the next night and it should work. 

Please call me and we can work something out for your Dish Player issues.

Sincerely,



XXXXXXXXXXXXX removed

Executive Office of Soraya Cartwright


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## Bob Haller

I wonder what sort of offer E will make? At least no longer being a dealer I dont loose the residuals But do want to help my best friend and his family.


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## FlyingDiver

_all this dicussion and we all are forgeting the pvr features were sold as a free service_

Not for everyone (or for all time). When I bought my first DP in the fall of 1999, the PVR features hadn't been enabled yet. All the disk was used for was the 7 day guide and the "instant replay" / pause functionality.

When the PVR features were enabled in December (as I recall), the fee was in place. In the summer of 2000, they made the "three years for $99 offer", which I immediately took them up on. Did I hope that they would extend that offer again? Yes, of course. But if they don't, they haven't reneged on any agreement with me.

And while my DPs had their occasional problem (I had two of them until I just got a 721), they worked as expected better than 95% of the time. That's better than I usually get from Microsoft, so I figure I'm ahead of the game.

joe


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## craig559

Ah yes, and that is when the problems started with that software download. Then if you had webtv enabled it even got worse. As I recall, there was even documentation on there web site that was presented when a class action was started against them which bye the way mysteriously that stopped with no real explanation. I believe I purchased mine from Audio King in Sept. 99 and they even showed me a circular that the PVR funtions would be free at the time. So I purchased it because I wanted to get Webtv also. Then all of a sudden they were going to start charging for all the features not just recording but pause and games also. Big outcry and they passified us with the pause and game if you had purchased by a certain date. Like I stated in a earlier post Logandravin over at DishplayerX, could probably give more detail on all this and I could be wrong on some of it, Hell he may even still have files on all this. He was our leader in the old Webtv group


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## Jacob S

There should be an option of software you want in your receiver. If you just want to pause, ff, rew, record, and do basic pvr functionality with very few bugs, then you should be allowed to have just that software in the receiver, if you want the extra features with more bugs you should have the option for that as well. I would think that this would be possible.


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## Joe Q

> Originally posted by craig559:
> *As I recall, there was even documentation on there web site that was presented when a class action was started against them which bye the way mysteriously that stopped with no real explanation.*


Craig:
The Wolverine X DP NG class action lawsuit was stopped because the attorney X contacted, said there wasn't enough ACTUAL proof that Microsoft had purposely deceived or misled those who had bought, or were buying the DP and were using the Web TV side of the product. The attorney X contacted (I can't remember his name) was the same attorney who had handled the only other successful lawsuit against Microsoft at that time.

That particular lawsuit was more focused against Microsoft for problems on the Web TV side of the DP, and not on the Dish Network TV side of the DP.

Our main gripe was, as I recall, the Web TV side of the DP was sold to us as Web TV Plus unit. While the DP had some of the functions of a standalone Plus unit, it did not have all of them.

It did not (and still does not) have the 2.5 Plus upgrade, which is access to Windows Media Player, G2 Real Audio Player and MSN Instant Messenger. It also had (and still does have) an outdated browser. The outdated browser causes DP user's to experience poorer than normal Web TV internet function and connectivity. (if you can actually believe that) :lol:

The end result of that particular legal action was, Microsoft reluctantly gave in and added MSN Instant Messenger, but not WMP or G2 Audio.


> Originally posted by craig559:
> *Like I stated in a earlier post Logandravin over at DishplayerX, could probably give more detail on all this and I could be wrong on some of it, Hell he may even still have files on all this.*


I still have a lot of those files X compiled for that attempted lawsuit. X E-mailed them to me and I printed them out before Microsoft took them down from their website. I don't think they'll help in this particular situation here though. As I said before, these are 2 completely different scenarios and 2 completely different situations altogether. But, maybe if X reads this, he can add something to this conversation here.


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## Bob Haller

Well although I had web tv it NEVER worked good. Its was buggier than the E side if you can believe that.


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## craig559

Joe Q, Now I remember you. I know you gotta be for the most part rite, my brain is a little juicey in these things. Most of what I said is for those who may need a little history and maybe a little leverage. You and Jamie may be what they need, to help out with some arguments on all this. What with there being blame thrown at MS or Dish, history with this sucks


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## DBSJedi

Here's the response I got from Dish:

Thank you for your e-mail regarding the 3 year PTV promotion on the DISHPlayer. I understand your concern over the possible monthly charge for the PTV service that you have received with no monthly charge for the past two and a half years. You are correct that the promotion was originally scheduled to expire in June, 2003. However, at this time no decision has been made to end or extend the PTV promotions for DISHPlayer customers. Currently, there is no new information available regarding the DISHPlayer PTV promotion. However, I will add your e-mail address to our DISHPlayer PTV Customer List to ensure that you are kept informed of any planned changes to the DISHPlayer PTV services. This list will allow us to keep you informed of new information regarding the PTV promotions for DISHPlayer in the quickest possible fashion.

In the meantime, I will forward your concerns to our Executive Team for consideration. Your views are an important concern to DISH Network as we plan future promotions and services. I apologize for any inconvenience caused by issues you may have experienced with the DISHPlayer. We are continuing to resolve issues and improve the PTV service through the release of new software upgrades.

Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns.

As a current customer, you may also use our website to view your current or previous billing statements, add services, or make payments to your account. Please use the link https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/customercare/UserManagement/login.jsp to visit our Online Customer Support Center.

Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have any further questions or concerns, please refer to www.dishnetwork.com or reply to this email.

Sincerely,

Nicole F.


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## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by Geronimo _
> *I understand guys but the couple of weeks later was over 2 years ago. It was not right but you have known all this time that you had to pay in 03. You should havem been upset then. *


Look fool, the idea is to explain to Dish what we're going to do if the fee is imposed in the hopes that they will rethink their position on this and offer us alternatives to the monthly fee.

It's not that we didn't expect *something* to happen. It's that we expected a reasonable alternative which we haven't been informed of yet. We are just explaining what we will do if this monthly fee is imposed.. which is basically leave Dish.


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## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by Swampthing _
> *Reading through this topic, it's mildly amusing how there seems to be an opinion that Dish is somehow pulling a fast one by "starting" to charge for the PVR service and simply because so many folks have coasted through the last three years on a free deal, they don't want it to end. Didn't you ever expect it to end? This reminds me of the folks who argue with store clerks to get the sale price on an item when the sale ended last week! How about those automobile warranties that allow full servicing until 50,000 miles. When the 50,000 miles is reached, should you deserve to get the service for free after that? It just doesn't work that way.
> 
> Believe it or not, there are alot of us who didn't grab those free deals and have willingly ante'd up the $9.99 a month for the past three years without whining. If Dish is willing to drop the fee across the board, that's fine and makes good business sense since there are no charges for the other recievers.
> 
> But Dish does not owe you any obligation to let you continue to get the deal for free... the sale ran out and that's just part of being a Dishplayer owner: There's a fee for PTV. *


First of all we haven't been coasting through with free PTV. Yes, we jumped on a good deal when we saw it.. lifetime free PTV. This was *a deciding factor *in purchasing the Dishplayers! When that deal was announced I had already decided I wasn't going to pay a monthly subscription fee for PTV. Years go by with MANY software issues but you know what, we weren't paying for PTV so we were all inclined to let them slide. If I had been paying for PTV I would have jumped ship years ago!

New Dish PVR's don't have fees associated with the EPG. ALL Dishplayer owners should have the SAME DEAL. It's as simple as that. Nobody needs to whine. I'm certainly not going to whine about it. I'm also not about to pay full price for new Dish single tuner receiver when I can purchase dual tuner DirecTIVO series 2 units for $199 each and free install!

I've made my decision. As soon as a monthly fee is instated or announced for the discontinued and out-of-date Dishplayer, I'm history. Simple as that. My two Dishplayers and all associated hardware (three dishes and tons of various switches) will go up on eBay and I'll be getting DirecTIVO's. They will have lost a loyal customer of many years. Since AT40 was the TOP package and the 4000 was the TOP receiver.

Those of you who didn't get the deal should have been complaining to Dish when they released the new PVRs with no monthly fee. Don't start calling those of us who jumped on a good deal whiners because you got a bum deal.


----------



## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by Swampthing _
> *Right minnow, and you DEMAND that PTV be given to you for free simply because YOUR sale price ran out, right? Let all the other folks who have been charged all along, continue to be charged for PTV right? Just give a freebie to you and the other folks whose deal is about to run out, right? Last I checked it didn't say the three year deal was conditional dependant upon Echostar providing you with bug free software... Your simply angry because you gotta pay for something that you had previously gotten free, that's all.
> 
> Sure... that makes complete sense.
> 
> PS... and again, I gotta ask... why did you keep the Dishplayer for four years if you felt it is, and always has been, such a bottom of the barrel piece of crap? Why argue to keep the fee free on a receiver you have undeniable utter hatred for? *


Once again there's a person that just doesn't get it.

The market changes, features change, packages change. The Dishplayer was the best PVR out there when it was introduced. Updates came frequently, there was the Free PTV and $99 PTV deals which prompted many of us to buy. It certainly made me a believer and I got two Dishplayers because of the Free PTV.

Over the years things changed. The Dishplayer was discontinued, software updates created more bugs than they fixed, new receivers were introduced WITHOUT PTV fees and most recently, the new DirecTIVO 2's have been released with dual tuners and advanced programming capabilities for a list price of $199!

When you look at what has happened over the years and where the market is today, if you're smart, you decide to go with the best bang for the buck. Do you stick with a somewhat buggy, discontinued PVR with no real support and start paying for PVR features or do you, upgrade to a less user-friendly Dish receiver with free PTV or jump ship.

These are the decisions you need to make. Dish charging $10/month for an outdated, discontinued and buggy PVR makes that decision easy.

The reason we've stuck with these receivers is because we've been happy with them when they work right. We've been VERY unhappy when they fail which has become more and more prevalent. And, each time it screws up, it ADDS to your frustration. It's a culmulative effect. Not only that but there's a lot involved in jumping ship. Your family has become used to how this quirky thing works. They're familiar with the remote and the channel lineup. Switching means enduring the family *****ing about learning more remotes and a totally new system. You have a batch of equipment on the roof and it's going to take TIME and EFFORT to switch to DirecTIVO. So, you hold out. You keep telling yourself "it's going to get better" or "they'll offer us a sweet upgrade". Anything to delay, what seems to be, the inevitable.

The PTV fee is the straw for many people.

For those of you who've been paying it all along, you should have complained and/or jumped ship a long time ago. No need to bash us because we jumped on the best deal around at the time. We know you're angry also because you've been sitting there getting more and more pissed because you know there are people out there like us who DO have free PTV and it just pisses you off more and more each day.

It makes you see red everytime one of us suggests that the Dishplayer PTV functions be free instead of a monthly fee. You get so angry that you lash out at us on forums such as this because you feel you've been cheated.

It's ok to be angry. Go with it. Just turn your anger toward Dish instead of us and tell them you don't want to pay for PTV functions on your Dishplayer anymore. Ask them about upgrades and look at alternatives out there.

You do know that you can get a sweet deal on a DirecTIVO and the PTV fees have been reduced to only $4.95/month or free depending on which package you subscribe to.

Have a Happy New Year!


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## Bob Haller

Well up to know I suffered in silence mostly. But honestly feel the fee is a kick to the groin by E. 

How many of you, if E doesnt offer us a REAL GREAT upgrade path will switch to D, and become D supporters and E bashers? Espically here and on the net? FOREVER? Refering people back to these threads saying well the company USED to be good? BUY D! 

The more of you who pledge to the greater our power to influence this. I doubt E would be happy with us , every time a newbie shows up telling about how E screwed us all.

Kinda bad for future business.

I never changed for these reasons. The $10 a month direct charge, The fact that I am a lifetime sky Angel sub and intergrating TWO services will be a major pain. Right now SA is the biggest deterent to a move. But lastly I having been the BIGGEST lifetime E pom pomer feel so disapointed by this.

I really believed Charlie was a good guy. Frankly I think he still is but is totally out of touch with whats going on. 

Dealers all have to sign NEW agreements to still be selling dish. E wouldnt even take the time to let them know they received the contract or were approved Yeah sure just blindly go on selling E and risk NOT GETTING PAID! at all?

Metro snuck this thru on a dealer chat and Charlie immediately ordered E get back to every dealer letting them know where they stand. It should of NEVER been a issue in the first place. THIS IS A EXAMPLE OF MANAGEMENT NOT CARING ABOUT THEIR DEALERS WHO PUT THEM WHERE THEY ARE TODAY. OUR PROBLEM HERE IS A EXAMPLE OF MANAGEMENT NOT CARING ABOUT THEIR CUSTOMERS! 

Companies who ignore both their customers and dealers loose all sorts of business. E has a MAJOR PROBLEM. Some folks in upper management are NOT doing their job.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My dad got D yesterday, in phoenix. He asked me which service was better. I answered honestly right now its Direct Tv. Unfortunately they didnt undersytand what tivo is, so they got a standard receiver. His birthday is coming, I will send him a TIVO. Dad is 74 and they couldnt deal with the E pvr bugs at all....

Unfortunately he is having a hip replacement tomorrow, I am very worried about him.


----------



## firephoto

Bob,

I really think you should switch because it's people with attitudes like yours that E* doesn't need.

You said:
"How many of you, if E doesnt offer us a REAL GREAT upgrade path will switch to D, and become D supporters and E bashers? Espically here and on the net? FOREVER? Refering people back to these threads saying well the company USED to be good? BUY D!"

How unprofessional is a statement like that? You have the right to say what you want, but statements like the above won't give you much clout with possible new subscribers.

If you don't like something that you have bought, buy something else, but don't just complain hoping you'll get a "good deal" on a new one. How long did you think that your dishplayer would really last?

Tom


----------



## Nick

...and I thought it was just me that is getting really weary of Bob Haller's vehement anti-Dish rants. Yesterday I composed a reply similar to firephoto's, but I reconsidered and didn't post it.

Bob, I am way past tired of your rants against Dish. You have made your point over and over. Just like Rage's posts, I no longer read yours, or, if I do, I take them with a grain of salt. At this point, you are taking up space and wasting my time.

Please go ahead and switch to D*, or go back to cable, or stick up your old raggedy OTA 'tenna. I really don't give a damn. You are a chronic complainer going way back to the DBSF days.

If this offends you, I'm sorry, but you just don't know when to quit. Lighten up and let us enjoy the benefit of your considerable experience and vast knowledge - but in a positive sense!

Happy New Year.

Nick


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## Bob Haller

Well I dont feel very charitable to dish right now, we DP VICTIMS are being screwed! Plus it bothers me that [email protected] doesnt even send a canned response to us. Others thought they were on vacation. But if you look back a bit they arent.

Lots of unhappy posters here. Some mad at dish, some upset with other posters for defending dish, and some unhappy with my negativity. So be it. But referral advertising is one of the BEST sources of new businesses for anyone. Did you know a happy customer will tell one person but a unhappy one tells 20? Must be worse with the internet.

How many glowing referrals do you think affected E subs nationwide will give after this?

E has a PR nightmare here and hasnt addressed it at all. Perhaps next week someone will look at it. 

Its like the FACT that 4700s that have been off the data stream for awhile CANT take a software uograde anymore. Is this customer friendly? NO does E give a hoot? Appears not....

Yeah build new receivers delayed over a year without the minimum features of the OLD model, then ask what people want and adding stuff that should of been designed in to start with creates a bug risk, Like the 721 stutter.

E has serious management troubles. Now I will avoid posting my negative posts here. 

I would go to direct if it werent for SA. Jen hates the idea of two seperate systems and the D dish location isnt attractive according to her.

If E had better management they wouldnt of let this drag on like it has. I wouldnt be surprised if we are ignored permanetely. If they were truly concerned someone would of acted by now.


----------



## Jacob S

I do agree with Bob Haller on some points though. There is something wrong. Some people does not have as much involvement with Dish therefore would not have as many problems. Those that tend to get more involved in a company figures the company out more and has more problems if in fact bad things are going on. I have had my fair share of problems. However I still prefer Dish over Direct because of the superstations and the way they have set their channels up and packages and so forth, yet that does not mean that one would stay with the company because of some problems and issues. 

I personally would rather have a Tivo device than an Echostar PVR sometimes because of the features and reliability but the price is higher. I suppose one has to look at things like in the long run. Sure it might be more expensive now but how expensive is it to have to buy a whole new receiver because one died after warranty, or having to deal with the bugs, or having to ship off the receiver over and over and over and over and having to pay the shipping rates, and so forth. It ends up not costing anymore in the long run.

I do think that one can dwell on it too much though. Sometimes I admit I dwell on it too much myself, but I do not want others going through the same problems that I have and think I should warn others of the problems.


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## JBKing

I guess it is just a coincidence, that suddenly there is a verbal and aggressive E* backlash, and now we have members calling others 'fool' and <gasp> members attacking Bob Haller for expressing his viewpoints?

Food for thought.


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## Bob Haller

Yeah this is wierd Charlie being away for a year was NOT a good thing...

It does go to prove I call em as I see them.


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## firephoto

I've spent the better part of the last hour searching the web and usenet, and can't find much information out about the Echostar/Microsoft agreement/contract for the dishplayer. Seems almost like the internet has been scrubbed of this information.?
The little bit that I did find stated that E* made the satellite receiving (hardware for decoding, switch control etc.) part, and Microsoft was responsible for the record/pause/guide/interactive apps, WebTV, etc. (software).

So.... Does it seem ridiculous that E* can't fix your DP problems? I'm sure it does to most, but if the contract says that microsoft will address all software issues, and E* role in updating the receivers is just simply to upload the data stream, then I don't see why people get wound up so tight about something E* has no control over? And since this thread started over a money issue, how many of you running WinXP on your computers now started with Win 3.1 (or 3.0 even) way back when, and got free upgrades the whole way? Sure some will say it's different, but it was Windows then and it is Windows now, the only difference is that there is no new dishplayer now to spend your $$$ on. You have to buy something different if you want E* and record ability.
The one thing that stood out in my searching the web, was that after the failed (vanishing?) dishplayer lawsuit against microsoft it seems everyone started blaming E* more.

I did find the "101 Things to Do With a Dead Dishplayer" page.
http://ekb.dbstalk.com/287
*smile everyone, it's not that bad. 

Tom


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## Bob Haller

Things to do with a DP.

1 Give to fire department for training. Fill with gasoline light and let them put it out, after it burns for a while.

2 Use for explosives training. Fill with pladstic explosives, detonate and SMILE.

3 Nice doorstop

4 Use as a example of poor engineering.

5 Use as wheel chock and forgets its there

6 Use as a example of a bad partnership.

7 How about yours?

8 Nice powercord for something that works


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## Bob Haller

Ahh windows whatever still works reasonably well with the matching software of the day. I am using windows 98 and ME they work fine for my applications.

IF your passing the buck to microsoft thats FINE. Let E sue them, they are great at doing that and usually win. But we are a E customer and have no business realtionshp with microsoft for satellite programming. So Dishes responsiblity is to its SUBS.

I hate when a company uses a contractor then says we have NO control. Sure you do, it makes them your employee.

Look I KNOW FOR CERTAIN some internet posters are E employees. Although they would NEVER admit it. I wonder how many defending them are really trying to help their employeer? I am not picking on anyone specifically but at the launch met some posters. They arent allowed to speak for the company, but do post informally as regular people....

I hope everyone understands my bashing E is to actually get their attention. The company has lost its way customer service wise, I am hoping this thread is read by the upper level E management. There are issues here well beyond the DP. Ones of being a responsible supplier providing good customer support.

FAILURE TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES NOW will be bad for long term growth. News of treatment like this gets around. Wether its a bunch of us directing folks to direct, or neighbors relating their experiences.

You shouldnt have to be a tech to watch tv!


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## Dennis

This is getting ridiculous. I realize people are angry. But calling others posters "fool" is a bit over the line. 

Yes those who are angry have aright to express that. But when you continually talk about a "reinstatement" of fees and continue to ask if new DP buyers have to pay the fee you are kind of asking for people to mention that the fee has been there all along. And yes they have as much right to express their lack of understanding as you do to express your anger.

Lots of threads have differences of opinion. But this is one of the few threads where holders of a particular opinion tell the other side they "don't get it". 

But this is a waste of badwidth. I will no doubt be told I don't get it either.


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## Bob Haller

> _Originally posted by firephoto _
> *Bob,
> 
> I really think you should switch because it's people with attitudes like yours that E* doesn't need.
> 
> You said:
> "How many of you, if E doesnt offer us a REAL GREAT upgrade path will switch to D, and become D supporters and E bashers? Espically here and on the net? FOREVER? Refering people back to these threads saying well the company USED to be good? BUY D!"
> 
> How unprofessional is a statement like that? You have the right to say what you want, but statements like the above won't give you much clout with possible new subscribers.
> 
> If you don't like something that you have bought, buy something else, but don't just complain hoping you'll get a "good deal" on a new one. How long did you think that your dishplayer would really last?
> 
> Tom *


Well most products do hopefully come with a honeymoon period where they work well. Never happened with the DP.

The no fee kept me as a user, plus I like the interface better than the 508 or 721.

I think it might not be professional, but then I am not in the DBS business. All the bad Press E will get over this is what I am talking about....

In some form thats what will be rembered if you want nice dependable operation buy Direct. Dish? Oh just ask anyone who owned a DP.


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## Joe Q

> Originally posted by firephoto:
> *The one thing that stood out in my searching the web, was that after the failed (vanishing?) dishplayer lawsuit against microsoft it seems everyone started blaming E* more.*


Probably because Echostar started withholding Microsoft's portion of the collected PTV fees. And if Echostar is collecting and receiving (and keeping) ALL the PTV fees, they should be held totally responsible for all the DP problems.

It's up to them to put the pressure on Microsoft, to get all the DP problems fixed and to get all the bugs worked out.


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## firephoto

I was under the impression that E* did have a suit against MS and then it went away, so I don't see why they would try to sue them again.

Bob, you said:
"Well most products do hopefully come with a honeymoon period where they work well. Never happened with the DP."

Now obviously you haven't waited till now to complain about your DP not working well. So just because there is rumor that they will start charging the $9.99 fee to everyone is enough to start a DP owner crusade due to the DP not working well? Why not 3 years ago, or whenever you first purchased one? And if you did complain or whatever then what was wrong with the results of that? If I thought that E* was going to swap out everyones dishplayers for a 508 for free or cheap, I would buy one on Ebay. I'd bet even if that did happen, there would still be a few that would complain about the 508 having problems from day one. Maybe dishplayer owners should get a 921 when it comes out, or is that not fair enough either? I mean you've suffered so much with your DP over the years something HAS to be done for you. (yes I'm being a bit sarcastic.)

Like some have said, this is ridiculous. It amazes me what people will put up with when something is free, and then it amazes me even more when they might have to pay a little for it. E* isn't putting a gun to your head, and I don't think they will be in the future. And there might be the chance that if you don't want the software features, they can disable that part and you will have a basic dish receiver, not much different than a 301. Probably be easier to give everyone a 301 though (i can hear the screams from here). lol

Oh and that's a lot of gasoline and explosives to be playing with just to show how great your dishplayer is.  Remember, safety first!
Tom

Oh and just for anyones info, I don't have anything against anyone here, just presenting another side to things. (not just for the sake of arguing though. lol)


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## Bob Haller

Hey I did omplain about my DP, ands alwauys believed someday there would be a upgrade path. Shocked and saddened it never occured the straw that broke the back was the fee.

The BASHING is becauise by NOW someone at E should of addressed this. I doubt we will get much of anything. I do believe customer service is reading this. 

If I had the mioney I would go to CES just to let Charlie know whats up. I doubt he would like seeing his operation get trashed so badly.


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## Phil T

Several people who were/are very loyal Dishnetwork customers/supporters have every right to be upset with this Dishplayer mess.

Yes, we are free to switch providers, but why not let Dish know we are unhappy.

I like my superstations! I like the programming selection. I like that Dish is a local company for me.

My 3000, 501 and 6000 work well. I have talked several friends and neighbors into Dishnetwork and my brother in law into a Dishplayer. I want them to feel they have made a good decision.

I had cable for 15 years before going to Dish in 1997. I don't want to go back.

DirecTV is always an option but why should I have to switch?

I got into satellite TV because of Dish. DirectTV cost $500.00 in 1997. Dish cost me $99.00.

In November 2001 I almost went with the DirecTIVO. I was not having Dishplayer problems at that time and decided to get a 501 for a second set. Then January- April 2002 I began having daily Dishplayer problems. Several calls to Dish brought no satisfaction. The problems seemed to be fixed with the software release in May. I have not had any problems until recently. Now I am getting the no sound after pause issue. I have not had any of the guide problems others have reported recently. 

What do I want?

I want my provider to acknowledge thy are having problems with the Dishplayer.

Because of the problems I do not want to have to pay for PTV in June. 

Cut your $ and PR losses and give Dishplayer owners an upgrade path - free 301 or $99.00 for a 508 or $199.00 for a 721.

Then move on and dedicate your Dishplayer resources into new products. 


People like Bill R and Bob Haller and Scott (for that matter , all dishplayer owners) are valuable to Dish. Keep them happy and it will pay you (EchoStar) back many times over in good PR.

It is time to get it right!!!


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## Bob Haller

Phil Thanks you said that very well....


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## Guest

Yes, I too have had it with DISH adn the DP problems. all I want is the same deal on a 508 as a new customer. But DISH will not budge. Hey Charlie a customer retained is a customer earned. (Especially a 6 yr customer with good track record). But there is no benefit to the loyal cust with dish. Take a look at Direct's upgrade deals for current customers. (much better). The you will understand why I have two HDVR2's sitting in my family room ready to installed. How about dual tuner system for $170.00 bucks, + tivo features(4.99 fee for all receviers) much more stable operation. Also These have been "enhanced" with ethical hacks to allow DVR to DVR network transfers, and copy to computer. Look around at directivo, and you will sell you echostar stock.
Sorry Charlie, you have lost this one!


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## DennyC

>> Well most products do hopefully come with a honeymoon period where they work well. Never happened with the DP. <<

Actually, it did, for me. I got my Dishplayer in August, 1999-- and it was pretty flawless for maybe a year. Things went downhill from there, of course.

I was never offered *any* deal on the monthly fees, paid $10/month since day one. The fact that I did have that honeymoon period is the main reason I stayed with the DP until last month.... eternally optimistic that they'd get it back to that initial level of stability.

DC (501, 508-- and a Dishplayer going up on eBay over the weekend....)


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## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by JBKing _
> *I guess it is just a coincidence, that suddenly there is a verbal and aggressive E* backlash, and now we have members calling others 'fool' and <GASP>members attacking Bob Haller for expressing his viewpoints?
> 
> Food for thought. *


 I called Geronimo a fool because he was acting like a fool. Every message I read was harping on and on about how the free PTV deal was known to be a limited time deal and that the free ride was over.

Most of us are intelligent enough to understand exactly what the deal was (after they hit us with *lifetime* and backed-off on that) and that it's going to be over. We don't need to be told it over and over incessantly. I must have read about eight messages from him all in a row saying the same thing.

Our current issue is Dishplayer stability, the fact that it's tired, outdated technology, it's discontinued, poorly supported and while most other PVR's either have no PTV fee or a *reduced* PTV fee, the old outdated, broken-down Dishplayer is keeping a $10/month fee.

If that's not an example of not keeping in step with the times, I don't know WTF is. The only other PVR with a PTV fee that high that I know of is the Stand Alone Tivo.

I wasn't about to pay $10/month when they first introduced the Dishplayer and I'm not about to start paying it in June.


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## Dennis

Who is acting like a fool and who is harping on what are often a matter of perspective. Each side could accuse the other of repetition and each could say that the other does not "get it". All of that is fine but in the last few pages certain people (on both sides) have just gotten nasty.

Heck the post you quoted was more than a week old and the original poster had moved on to make other comments since then. Why beat a dead horse?


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## Bob Haller

I would hope the free PVR folks could agree with the ones still paying . In BOTH cases its a rip off. It MUST CHANGE. A upgrade MUST be offered.

How many will phone the E executive customer support number if I post it?

I have it thanks to my friends forwarded e mail.

Since E wouldnt retuirn our mails perhaps some actual people calling will get their attention? Perferbly all calls on the same day?

If Scott or Chris dont want the number posted you can all email me for it. I will ask them before I put it up.

Perhaps someone will inform the other group of a planned phone day? 

We really should unite, wether we were part of the free PVR or not!

Plus how many are willing to try to sneak one past the chat screeners? I would love for Charlie to actually KNOW about this! 

And that we are being ignored. NO EXCUSE FOR NOT RETURNING MAIL!


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## Joe Q

> Originally posted by rlindabury:
> *Our current issue is Dishplayer stability, the fact that it's tired, outdated technology, it's discontinued, poorly supported and while most other PVR's either have no PTV fee or a *reduced* PTV fee, the old outdated, broken-down Dishplayer is keeping a $10/month fee.*


For most of us DP owner's here, that about sums it all up in a nutshell. That's exactly what the real argument is here. Dish and Microsoft wanting to charge $10 a month for something that's not really worth $10 a month.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *It MUST CHANGE. A upgrade MUST be offered.*


Well I wouldn't go that far. I'd just look at this from a positive angle, at least you have a reason to get out from the Dishplayer nightmare and move to a more stable system. Now if DirecTV offers a better deal its Dish's loss not yours.


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## Bob Haller

Because of SA I would prefer to stick with E. But my patience is nearly gone.


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## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by Dennis _
> *Who is acting like a fool and who is harping on what are often a matter of perspective. Each side could accuse the other of repetition and each could say that the other does not "get it". All of that is fine but in the last few pages certain people (on both sides) have just gotten nasty.
> 
> Heck the post you quoted was more than a week old and the original poster had moved on to make other comments since then. Why beat a dead horse? *


 Everything is a matter of perspective. 

The subject just rubs many of us the wrong way. Sorry if I sounded angry. I just started reading the thread from the beginning and responded to posts that I felt needed responding to. I didn't read the whole thread first so I wasn't beating a dead horse based on my reading/responding method.

At any rate, hopefully Echostar will come to their senses and provide a reasonable change in the fee structure for *ALL* Dishplayer owners.

Anyone interested in modification/upgrade information for Dishplayers & PVR 501/508's, click on my bookmark.


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## Bob Haller

I wonder how many E BAY DPs ever get legitamely subbed too? E ought to track some roo numbers sold on E BAY. If the sell for $200 and NEVER get subbed its obvious what they are being used for...


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## Jacob S

The best solution is to switch to tivo which is more reliable or get the computer pvr available, in which I have thought about getting.


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## Bob Haller

I wonder if Sky Reports would be interested in this story? I will drop them a mail on it


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## Bob Haller

Someone over at the other place just reported a $99 special with top 150 & CC autopay. limit ONE receiver. Said they had to fight for it. No guarantee ts a 508 might be a 501.

A enterproising fellow on the newsgroups is offering 508s for $150 exchange for working DPs. I guess he figures he can sell them and make a buck...


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## Martyva

Dish does not currently offer a system with internet capability. I think it may be premature to offer many dishplayer users an alternative solution.


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## Bob Haller

How many DP owners use web tv? It never worked good for me.b Chat mentioned it wasnt popular either.


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## JBKing

Yep, I had to talk until I was nearly blue in the face, but I got the RA department to give me a 501/508 for $99 with credit card autopay and a 12 month commit to AT150. It was abundantly clear that this was a one time offer, and any more 501/508's would be $299 through E*.

Sold my soul perhaps, but once I ebay my DP, I'll be $100 ahead, and I get to keep my remaining $170 in dishclub certificates, along with the superstations. Let's hope the 501/508 isn't a big a POS as the DishPlayer.

I still have one DP left, and I'm not sure what to do with it. I like having another PVR for the kids TV, but I don't want to spend $300 for a 508. Of course, I'm 100 ahead, I can spend 300, sell the other DP for $200 or so on ebay, and come out even. Or shut down the PTV functionality if/when Chuck decides he wants to charge me for it.


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## Jacob S

You will be charged $10 a month, they done decided, if its the dishplayer

The 501/508 is better. If it is a 501 receiver then no wonder why they are selling it for $99, they dont make them anymore, its the 508 with a hard drive twice the size.


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## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *You will be charged $10 a month, they done decided, if its the dishplayer
> 
> The 501/508 is better. If it is a 501 receiver then no wonder why they are selling it for $99, they dont make them anymore, its the 508 with a hard drive twice the size. *


 No, they haven't decided according to the emails they've sent back to people complaining about the end of the Free PTV until 2003 deal. And if they have decided and are lying in the emails, they can always change that decision because there's still several months to go.

The 508 is no better than the 501 except for the larger hard drive and if you know what you're doing you can put a larger hard drive in your 501. I don't find either of the 50x machines to be worth a damn.

The only upgrade I'd be willing to take is a 721. The max I'd spend would be $149ea and I'd get two of them as upgrades for my two Dishplayers. Seeing as how they don't have the features of the DirecTIVO Series 2 units, they are worth less to me than those and I can get DirecTIVO's for $199ea with free install.


----------



## Bob Haller

Imagine the cable companies getting a hold of this story and the CEO ADDRESS NOT RETURNING OUR MAIL. They would love that!


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## Bob Haller

I tend to believe the charge is firm.


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## firephoto

The emails to the [email protected] address that are not getting responded to might be from domain names that are blocked due to spam problems from those addresses. (way too big of sentence for pre-coffee typing)

Why let just the cable company know about this "big problem"? Maybe Dateline or 60 Minutes would like this "big" story.  (smiley disclaimer)

Tom


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## Bob Haller

> _Originally posted by firephoto _
> *The emails to the [email protected] address that are not getting responded to might be from domain names that are blocked due to spam problems from those addresses. (way too big of sentence for pre-coffee typing)
> 
> Why let just the cable company know about this "big problem"? Maybe Dateline or 60 Minutes would like this "big" story.  (smiley disclaimer)
> 
> Tom *


No My friend who got a response did it from AOL just lke I did. Her letter posted earlier wasnt from here. WE GET IGNORED>

Hey Media eats up stuff like this. Wonder if the media covering CES would like a scoop to rotten customer service and ignoring your custromer e mails? Cable would sure be interested!

Its certinally worth pitching it to them.

The head of customer service needs nothing but the best headache of her life! NOIT RETURNING MAIL IS RUDE! aT LEAST A CANNED RESPONSE....

Anyone who wants the ceo service number drop me a mail, they dont want it posted publically here.

To do list, contact media covering CES, Skyreport, and maybe no for sure I will e mail this thread monday to the cable ompanies.

I Am sick of no response!


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## Jacob S

Maybe if they do not want to hear it in an email then they can hear it publically where everyone else can hear it too.

I do agree that the Dish units in a way is worth less than the Tivo being it lacks features and durability, but Dish does not charge the $10 fee for the 501, 508, and 721 receivers.

Others have posted on here that the fee was a definite, thats why I said it was firm. I think the only way they can get out of charging a fee is giving those dishplayer customers a deal. Paying $99 for a 501/508 is worth it because you can sell your dishplayer and get that much or more out of it, therefore you have nothing in your unit, maybe a profit for the hassle. This is the best way of handeling this. I have even heard someoen was trading dishplayers in on 501/508's.


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## firephoto

Not returning mail is common when sending mail to non support contacts. You're not mailing [email protected] for help on how to record a program, people do it to complain (express there disatisfaction).

Lets see, 8 million customers, if only 1% emailed [email protected] then thats 80,000 emails to read. I don't think Charlie's office has THAT much spare time.


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## Jacob S

They should email everyone a response to come to this board for answers as an option and it would be nice to have a dish representative on the boards to answer some of those questions and address the issues, this would prevent repetitious emails but everyone could read about the same problem therefore saving lots of time and effort, when you answer one person's question, you answer the same question for lots of people. This would be a great way to resolve some of the problems. Something similar to what was done on dishretailer forums when Mary D. came in there to answer some questions.


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## Guest

I bought a DishPlayer for $199 after hearing what it could do, but I was not informed by the "girl" that in order to use it's fantastic features, I would have to pay an additional $9.95/month for life. She set up the billing to waive the fees for 90 days and it was a rude awakening when the additional $9.95 started showing up on the bill(and I really ask a lot of detailed questions because of this experience). 

Then, to add insult to injury, the many bugs that plagued the unit made me want to pound it with a sledge hammer more than once. I can tell you that the #1 problem with it is that Microscum (aka Microsoft) had their grubby, greedy fingers in this pie. After ceaseless complaining to various customer service people they finally appeased me by refunding me $100 of my purchase price. I sold it for $80 the next week on Ebay. 

One particularly knowledgeable customer service rep gave me a lot of background on the problems they've had with Microscum and the DP, and that because of this, they were making their own digital recorder unit, to be called the PVR. And this unit, since there would be no outside partners, would not have any hidden charges to use it's features. I was told this 2 years ago, and it's come true with the 501/508/721 models.

My advice to DP owners: dump them while you can get something for them. (And hope that not too many people read this discussion ;-))

Once again, Microscum ruins everything.


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## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by Turbohawk _
> *I bought a DishPlayer for $199 after hearing what it could do, but I was not informed by the "girl" that in order to use it's fantastic features, I would have to pay an additional $9.95/month for life. She set up the billing to waive the fees for 90 days and it was a rude awakening when the additional $9.95 started showing up on the bill(and I really ask a lot of detailed questions because of this experience).
> 
> Then, to add insult to injury, the many bugs that plagued the unit made me want to pound it with a sledge hammer more than once. I can tell you that the #1 problem with it is that Microscum (aka Microsoft) had their grubby, greedy fingers in this pie. After ceaseless complaining to various customer service people they finally appeased me by refunding me $100 of my purchase price. I sold it for $80 the next week on Ebay.
> 
> One particularly knowledgeable customer service rep gave me a lot of background on the problems they've had with Microscum and the DP, and that because of this, they were making their own digital recorder unit, to be called the PVR. And this unit, since there would be no outside partners, would not have any hidden charges to use it's features. I was told this 2 years ago, and it's come true with the 501/508/721 models.
> 
> My advice to DP owners: dump them while you can get something for them. (And hope that not too many people read this discussion ;-))
> 
> Once again, Microscum ruins everything. *


 Um.. Microsoft isn't the anti-christ. Just because Microsoft had something to do with a product doesn't automatically make that product unusable. The Dishplayer was and IS a pretty good piece of hardware/software when it's working properly!

I would have no problems keeping my Dishplayers if there was never a monthly PVR fee and if the bugs were all fixed! There is NOTHING wrong with the Dishplayer if the bugs were fixed and some features were added. In fact I'd love to have an UltimateTV unit that worked with Dish.

Your contention that the Dishplayer is a useless piece of junk just doesn't hold water. The issue is the PVR fee, lack of support and the multitude of bugs that are never fixed. The fact that it's discontinued and software updates typically cause more problems than they fix add to the problem.


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## Swampthing

I can't believe how hilarious this thread has become...

Where else can you see people whine so loudly over how terrible, buggy, trashy, and POS a product is, how incredibly useless the PTV feature is, etc., yet get down on their knees and beg Echostar to be able to keep it as their main receiver without a fee... when several other much higher praised receivers without a fee are already available!

I guess the bottom line is that if the people here get rid of their Dishplayers, they might not have anything else to complain about... and then what would they do with the rest of their day?
:shrug: :lol: :shrug:


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## Bob Haller

> _Originally posted by Swampthing _
> *I can't believe how hilarious this thread has become...
> 
> Where else can you see people whine so loudly over how terrible, buggy, trashy, and POS a product is, how incredibly useless the PTV feature is, etc., yet get down on their knees and beg Echostar to be able to keep it as their main receiver without a fee... when several other receivers without a fee are already available!
> : :lol: :shrug: *


Thats because the sad FACT is the dippy DPs features are WAY BETTER than the 508 / 721 and I can say this with honesty since I have ALL THREE! I actually prefer the DP, except that its unreliable. But then again so is MY 721

Where else do you find a beta unit with better features than the follow up models designed years later?

The 721 interface is like a chevette, as compared to a cadillac, the chevette our 721 has a big avantage over our cadddy, the rear hatch to carry stuff ( the 721 dual tuner) but the caddy is more comfy, nicer user interface than the 721. Heck our DP has name based recordings with a bit of intelligence, somethin g our 721 totally lacks!

Whoever mistakenly drew up the original specs for the 721 was sadly mistaken what a PVR was 
Although they did add some nice stuff the things they left out are sad in what was supposed to be cutting edge...


----------



## John Corn

> _Originally posted by Swampthing _
> *I can't believe how hilarious this thread has become...
> 
> Where else can you see people whine so loudly over how terrible, buggy, trashy, and POS a product is, how incredibly useless the PTV feature is, etc., yet get down on their knees and beg Echostar to be able to keep it as their main receiver without a fee... when several other much higher praised receivers without a fee are already available!
> 
> I guess the bottom line is that if the people here get rid of their Dishplayers, they might not have anything else to complain about... and then what would they do with the rest of their day?
> :shrug: :lol: :shrug: *


:lol: Great reply Swampthing


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## Joe Q

> _Originally posted by Swampthing _
> *I can't believe how hilarious this thread has become...
> 
> Where else can you see people whine so loudly over how terrible, buggy, trashy, and POS a product is, how incredibly useless the PTV feature is, etc., yet get down on their knees and beg Echostar to be able to keep it as their main receiver without a fee... when several other much higher praised receivers without a fee are already available!
> 
> I guess the bottom line is that if the people here get rid of their Dishplayers, they might not have anything else to complain about... and then what would they do with the rest of their day?
> :shrug: :lol: :shrug: *


*BEG???*

Is that what you see? You see us "begging" Echostar to remove the $9.95 a month PTV fee?

I don't see a whole lot of begging here myself. What I do see is a lot of angry DP user's, who are pissed off because the service and the support that they've received for their DP's has "REALLY SUCKED".

If the DP had worked the way it was supposed to, NO ONE WOULD HAVE ANYTHING TO GRIPE ABOUT!!! But it doesn't, and that's why everyone is so upset.

Just switching to another receiver or to another provider isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Maybe it is for you or for someone like John Corn. But it's not, for a lot of us.

Some of us can't, because we have family issues or we can't afford it. Others can't, because they still have annual commitments. And there are some here who just flat out don't want to have to switch.

The solution you're proposing is painless and most definitely beneficial to Echostar. Echostar would love it if everyone thought the way that you did.

Just dump your Dishplayer and go buy something else. Absolve us of any responsibility at all. Even though we've provided less than adequate or acceptable support for it for the past 4 years.

Sure, that's the answer. Just make it simple and painless for Echostar, while we have to suffer and probably have to shell out more money to get out of this sucky situation that they've put us in.

Wouldn't it be easier if they just put the effort into fixing all these DP problems? Then no one would have anything to complain about, and nobody would have a problem paying the $9.95 a month PTV fee.

But they won't. They want everyone to think like Swampthing & John Corn. Just get rid of your DP and get something else if your not happy. Absolve us of any and all wrong doing in this matter. (even though we know we've bent you over and screwed you big time)

Yup, that's exactly what Echostar hopes everyone will do. And they will too. But how many people will they end up losing, who once considered themselves loyal Dish Network customers? That's the question. We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.


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## craig559

Joe Q very well said. I have said before and I will say it again. The DP was and still is a state of the art reciever. Yhe support for it has been screwed up since the beginning and now that I have caved in and activated the PVR functions in hopes of them problems having been fixed I have found my loyalty to be very misguided. Next month I am dropping the Pvr end of thing and going back to the old reliable VCR. But I will be giving up Dish also as soon as the rite deal comes along or Dish offers a upgrade to a dual tuner setup that I can afford. Who wins Dish or Direct? I have been with them since 98 and what makes me the most angry is when there are problems there doesnt seem to be anyway but the highway. Loyalty goes both ways and to me its on a one way road to Dish and screw the individual customer.


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## Bob Haller

Well now we will know if Sky reports will run stuff that makes DBS look bad. I sent them the following.


I get your news daily and may have a story you could use. Unfortunately its unflattering to Dish network. So I honestly dont know if you would run it.

Some years ago Dish introduced the dishplayer. Honestly its been a bug ridden problem, but does have some awesome features. The NEXT software upgrade always promised relief, unfortunately it would fix one but create new ones. There was NEVER a good one for everyone.

Many of us bought what was originally called a lifetime PVR payment of $100, some folks missed out and have been paying $9.99 a month since they got their receiver, others got their free PVR with the purchase of the box. At some point lifetime became untill june 2003. Well it was leaked that the fee is being reinstated for all this June. This for a service thats problematic at best and unusable at worst.

We in the DBS community are very upset over this situation, Some like myself 
emailed the [email protected] address. Its RUDE, they dont reply to our mails on this issue. NOT EVEN A CANNED RESPONSE. What sort of customer service is this?

Frankly I am so upset I would convert to Direct tv over the issue. But I really dont want to do that. Since I am a lifetime Sky angel subscriber. Dealing with two systems would be a mess for our family.

Perhaps you could look into this? If not I am sending this same letter to the media covering CES, In the hopes of finding someone interested.

Look I honestly DONT want to give Dish or DBS a black eye, but on the other hand we are not being treated fairly. All we really want is a FAIR upgrade offer. At this point a apology would be nice too. Theres NO excuse for ignoring customers complaints. Or charging for a service that dopesnt work.

Hopefully some media attention will get Charlie and company to address the issue.

Here are the internet discussions of this issue.

DBSForums Discussion Forums: DishPlayer PTV Fee Will Be 

DBSForums Discussion Forums: More DP EPG Problems 

DBSTalk.COM - DishPlayer PTV Fee Will Be $9.99 a Month Afrer June, 2003 

Its truly sad. I was a TREMENDOUS supporter of DBS and dish network. If yoy look at those websites tone, QC, customer service, and retention issues all appear to be going downhill. This is not good for the industry and specifically bad for Dish.

Thanks for your listening, please let me know if your interested or not, so I know wether to take this issue to other media or ultimately a cable group, who might relish such a issue.

Dish has a responsiblity to their subs espically long term ones like myself. 

Bob Haller pittsburghj pa 412 XXX XXXX


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## firephoto

Very well put swampthing.

I'd say more, but it just leads to longer posts.


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## Bob Haller

Well they finally called me, and offered the $99 508 upgrade which I accepted. No strings attached. I will ebay the DP. and its limited to one replacement.

Its sad this had to go on so long. Now I hope they get back to the rest of you, and treat you well. I told them this should of been addressed a long time ago. Perhaps the sky report angle got them to get moving. Oh the power of the media


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## cicijay

*The following is just an opinion and includes some of my personal experiences*

I missed the "free" PVR Offer on the Dishplayer by a couple of months. I gladly paid the $9.99/month until I purchased the 501. I figured @ $9.99/month I would be able to re-coupe the $199 fee for the 501.

I am on my 3rd 501 and it is out of warranty by a couple of months. While I was awaiting the replacements for my 501 I had the Dishplayer re-activated and they wouldn't give me the PVR features! From the sound of the hard drive, I'm not sure this 501 will be lasting long enough to re-coupe the difference. ($9.99X15=$150). I wish I had stuck with the DishPlayer @ 9.99/month. But that was my decision and I stick with it.

I was happy with the DishPlayer and I knew at the time I was paying $9.99/month that many users were getting it for free but there was no alternative (the 501 wasn't out yet).

As a former $9.99/month DishPlayer user, I really don't understand the frustration. If there had been features in the Dishplayer that I had to have, I would have stuck with the Dishplayer.

If it were me, I'd either Pay the $9.99 or Switch to a 5xx or 721. Dish has made it very clear in the past that they can not be expected to subsidize every hardware upgrade. If your complaints can get you a subsidized upgrade, more power to you, but I see no reason to bash Dish over this :shrug:

I have 3 retired Receivers and never got a discount on any of them and Plan on upgrading to the 921 when it is released in ??2005?? and don't expect a subsidy then either.


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## Joe Q

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *Well they finally called me, and offered the $99 508 upgrade which I accepted. No strings attached. I will ebay the DP. and its limited to one replacement.
> 
> Its sad this had to go on so long. Now I hope they get back to the rest of you, and treat you well. I told them this should of been addressed a long time ago. Perhaps the sky report angle got them to get moving. Oh the power of the media *


So Bob, is this the end of the line for you now? Should we consider this a payoff? A buyout from Echostar to get you to keep your mouth shut? :shrug:

Do you plan on following through with the things that you said you were going to do earlier, or is this it for you now?

Is Dish planning to offer all DP user's the same deal that you and JB King got? :shrug:

If not, then I have to assume that Dish gave you that one time deal just to shut you up and to keep you from doing the things that you said you were going to do.

Is that what you're planning on doing now? (now that you've got YOUR $99 508 trade-in)


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## Jacob S

The whole point in him saying that he would do things was to do those things if Dish did not follow through, and they did for him. If someone does sell their Dishplayer on e-bay then that would be enough in itself to almost pay for the cost of a 501/508 if you get the $199 deal but if you do not get the top 150 package then it would not be much of a deal after all. That along with the $9.99 a month you would save money.

Do they give you the 501/508 for $99 flat or make you take the top 150 for a year to get the deal? Is that just $100 off on that promotion.


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## Bob Haller

I suspect they may have been trying to get me to drop the subject. But I havent gone away. EVERYONE should be elegible for this. Drop me a mail and I will give anyone the reps name and phone number.

Now I mailed sky report and havent heard back. How about the rest of you? [email protected] is their address. Ask them if they ever run negative stories on DBS. If they ignore this I will never trust their intergrity again. They would certinaly cover this if were a cable issue.

With numbers we can make a difference and frankly although I got a 508, the situation stinks. E has a serious problem, espically with ignored mail to the CEO. Customer service is lacking. Its costing them business. Hopefully continued outrage here will get it the attention it needs.

If they dont fix it it will be worse than cable, if it isnt already.

No I dont go away, but we need to ALL work on this. Lets just say I know how to complain


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## Bob Haller

I alreadyt have the everything pack, along with LIL and supers. They didnt require a commitment or CC auto pay but did want a CC number to pay for the 508 before it shipped. That was fair.

Anyone want her name and phone number just e mail me, I will be glad to send you along. Would post it here but Chris asked I not do this.

As long as were all taken care of this is what I wanted, but management has some serious custopmer service issues.

For me it wasnt just a upgrade or whatever for MYSELF, it was / is about whats fair for all the affected subs.


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## rlindabury

I see there's some people here who don't own Dishplayers that can do nothing but complain about our discussion on this subject. To those of you doing that, go pound salt. We don't need your useless and inflamatory comments on this subject.

Then there's the people who are happily paying $10/month for PVR service and think that the rest of us are crazy because we haven't been and that we should be as happy as they are to start paying $10/month for PVR service. Maybe these people would be better served happily paying their DishNetwork bill than complaining to us about our desire to not pay the monthly fee.

For those considering selling their Dishplayers in the next few months, here's a bit of research that might interest you. I ran this search today. ASP is "Average Selling Price" and as you will see from the output, it even includes a remote for $45.00 which has skewed the overally ASP lower than it actually is. Still, you'll get an idea of what these units are worth if/when we sell them. Enjoy!


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## Bob Haller

I have to wonder how many if any become subbed legitametely?


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## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *I have to wonder how many if any become subbed legitametely? *


 Doesn't matter to me and isn't something that I'm responsible for. Echostar is responsible for policing how people use their equipment.

As far as I'm concerned, I deserve to obtain the best price possible for my equipment. Especially since mine is in like-new condition with all the original manuals, remotes, keyboards, boxes, etc. Mine were both full systems with dishes, switches, etc. and that's probably how I'll sell them to the highest bidder.

Only problem I'll have is having to remove the original drives from the computers I've popped them in.. heh. No big deal but I think I've used them as system drives.


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## Bob Haller

You might get more $ on Ebay for the DPs with the larger drives. Plus some computers will not work with ones that are too big. 


IKEEP mentioning the question wether thoise ebayed get resubbed because someone at dish should REALLY check.


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## FlyingDiver

_IKEEP mentioning the question wether thoise ebayed get resubbed because someone at dish should REALLY check._

Why?

joe


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## jcrash

rlindabury what software did you use to do that search? That looks interesting.


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## rlindabury

I used Andale. http://www.andale.com and the product is called "Research" and it's $2.95/month.


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## Bob Haller

Ok, I have a question, Did E try to silence me? Since I was fanning the flames and trying to organize our group here. 

If you e mailed the CEO address awhile ago have they got back to YOU?

Now if they have now contacted everyone then the lack of response was holiday related.

What did they offer? Did you accept?

If they still havent then someone, tried to shut me up 

I really want to know!

Since havent got a response at ALL from Sky Reports I now doubt they have any journalistic intergrity.

If E just contacted ME, I think its time to go to the media, including XXX XXXX XXXXX I must be careful WHY let E know my exact plans? .

Imaguine a story about how buggy software udates of ANY product can ruin the device you paid for at any time!

E would get a bad reputation and I wonder how common in other areas stuff like this is?

I am serious, E needs a wake up call for customer saisfaction!


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## Bob Haller

BTW my utrage here wasnt just for me, it was for ALL OF US who have put up with so much for so long!


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## Bob Haller

Any reports from results of the CEO contact?


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## Horsnuts

I just read every post in these 8 pages. It took me close to an hour, and now i'm somewhat eager to express my opinions.
I've been a big E* subscriber since early '99 and ALSO own a *hitplayer.(oh-did I spell that wrong?) Yeah, I have to agree with everyone, it's junk. It has had all the same problems, much to my relief, i'm not alone. I now know this. All that this reciever has done is tease me with PVR. The only thing that keeps it from seeing a landfill is Dolby Digital. This is a good thing that HAS worked.
The "PVR FEE" has always been a "MICROSOFT FEE". I never was offered the $99 deal, but I did pay the $9.99 for a while, till I found out about all the bugs. I feel sorry for those that paid in advance for 3 years of turmoil, and glad also that i'm not in your position being screwed and all. I myself understand the fee, but object to paying it as I agree with all of you. You would be crazy for paying for something that doesn't work. I also agree with having an upgrade promotion of some sort. I feel my epuipment( 2700, 3700, dishplayer) for the most part could be considered "Ancient", and would be nice for long term subscribers to have a trade-in program available. I do agee- *hitplayer blows- besides DD.
One thing I do like about E*, is the Charlie chat, and Tech forum's. As cheesy as it is, I think it's pretty cool that they do that. And this gives them LOTS of respect from me. So much that I wouldn't switch to direct for nuthin'. I'm not just a customer, but I am a fan, what else can I say?
I've decided, too, to hold out for the 921. I've been waiting for something likr this for some time now, and i'm happy to hear that it is becomeing a reality. As long as I have my Dolby Digital, I'll be okay.


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## DBSJedi

Ok.. it is June.. logged into the dish website to check my bill and no indication of $9.99 fee now. Hope they don't notice the 3-year promo is over. 

EDIT: Ahh.. promo is good until last day in June


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## Jacob S

I am sure they know.


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## DBSJedi

Just like it took them 18 months to realize I never got a waiver for CBS. Their website was showing incorrect approvals for many of the distants when in fact none were automatic approvals here. Ah.. their addressbroker screwed up quite often. Good times!


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## toad57

OK, I hear a rumor that the $99/3yr. people have made such a howl that they will get FREE PTV for the rest of the year, but those paying $9.99/month will continue to pay $9.99/month!!!

So let me get this right: Person A gets a deal of $99 for 3 years of PTV fees and feels miffed that they have to now pay a higher price now that their 'special deal' has ended, so they whine to Echostar and they get thrown a bone of free PTV.

Person B, who just barely missed the 'good deal' has been paying $9.99/mo for nearly 3 years, resulting in an income to Echostar of ~$350.00 for a three-year period, gets nothing but a "TOUGH LUCK SUCKER" message.

*WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE!?!?!? GET A CLUE ECHOSTAR, THIS IS NO WAY TO ENDEAR CUSTOMERS TO YOU!!!*
:flaiming :flaiming :flaiming :flaiming


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## rlindabury

Well, it's worse than that. There were people (like me) who jumped on the FREE PTV for 3 year deal. That's right! We didn't pay a DIME for PTV from the moment we got it for three years. Our time is also up.

I've posted previously here and I did send an email to Dish about the fee stating in no uncertain terms that the day I see a PTV charge on my bill is the day I cancel all Dish services, sell all my Dish equipment and go to DirecTV.

I've yet to see a charge on my bill for PTV. From what I've heard the PTV fee has been recinded through Dec of this year.

After that, who knows.


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## Mike D-CO5

Dish should actively offer and upgrade to replace ALL DISHPLAYERS on the market and once and for all remove this problem . This is really and ongoing problem that is a blackeye on Dish. If they are not going to resolve the software problems that exist ,and fix this fee they are charging since it really goes to Microsoft ,they need to take these out of service. Dish needs to Recall these lemons once and for all !!!


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## rlindabury

> _Originally posted by Mike D-CO5 _
> *Dish should actively offer and upgrade to replace ALL DISHPLAYERS on the market and once and for all remove this problem . This is really and ongoing problem that is a blackeye on Dish. If they are not going to resolve the software problems that exist ,and fix this fee they are charging since it really goes to Microsoft ,they need to take these out of service. Dish needs to Recall these lemons once and for all !!! *


 Ok, the Dishplayers may have had several issues over the years but lately they've been pretty darn solid except for the rebooting loop a month or two ago.

In fact, there's just been an update as of last night giving them a nine day guide instead of the 7 day guide plus a couple of other features. I've been quite happy with my two Dishplayers for the past few months and am happy to keep them.

The only issue I have with them now is that they don't support any advanced features like DirecTIVO does (dual tuners, full name-based recording, USB connections) and are discontinued. Even so, I can do things with my dishplayers that can't easily be done with other PVRs. I would NOT take a 501/508 as a replacement because IMHO, that'd be a downgrade.

Check out my Dishplayer webpage for more info:

http://www.ravenimaging.com/bobl/dishplayer


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## Geronimo

A few days ago I received another email saying no decision has been made. So I don't think they know---or will say.

As for a swap ot it sounds like a good idea but given the dissatisfaction expressed here and in other forums with that idea it may ruffle as many feathers as it smooths. Many have suggested that a 508 (the current entry level PVR) woulfd not be adequate in their eyes. A 721 is pretty expensive and has a lot of features the Dishplayer does not. I don't know if there is a middle ground here--especially since many have said they do not want a discount on a PVR they want a new PVR.

But we will see. Waiving the fee for some but niot for others is bound to cause a flap. and if tread proves anything it proves that many of those who have not been charged for the last three years will be upset if they are charged.


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## John Walsh

regardless of what happens it looks like I am getting rid of my Dishplayer at the right time


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## Guest

When I jumped on the bandwagon and received my Dishplayer I understood that at the end of June, 2003 I would have to begin paying the fee. I had no problems with that. I took advantage of the promotion. My Displayer has been reasonably trouble free. Not completely but reasonably so. I've used it along side a 6000 HD receiver which allowed me to use PIP for sports conflicts.

About 10 months ago I received a 501 as part of a promotion. (Club Dish) I've kept it in its box as I knew the Dishplayer had a better interface and I like to use the keyboard for typing in search strings. However, the Displayer will come out and the 501 goes in. I've been conditioned to using the Displayer without paying the extra $9.99. I'll use the 501 until the 921 comes out then I'll shift my 6000 to a second HDTV.

I don't feel that Dishnetwork is ripping us off by charging for the DP after June. That was part of the deal. They were up front about that. You can argue that it isn't worth the $9.99 with all the bugs. True, but what do you expect from Microsoft software? 

The Dishplayer will always have a soft spot in my heart becaused it changed the way I viewed TV. I expect more from future versions of PVRs.


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## Guest

The reply from dish is upgrade. $199.00 501/508 they will also give you a dish 500 upgrade if needed and a free second dish for programing on the 61 sat. It is costly but a cable tv box costs the same or more with less features.


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## BobMurdoch

If they start the fee again, then I upgrade to a 5xx on the two that I have and sell the Dishplayers on EBay to some guys who will probably use it to pirate E*'s programming. 

E* does what IT has to do for it's bottom line, and I do what I have to do for mine.


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