# E* Fee Complaints (was Charlie Chat)



## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

An "activation charge" for your own USB storage device--that's exactly the sort of thing that made me leave Dish after 9 years. This nickel and diming by adding on every fee conceivable is nuts--an "enabling fee," a per DVR fee, a $20 HD fee, and now an "activation charge fee" for current subscribers. Wow!


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

jal said:


> ...a $20 HD fee, ...


Yeah, cause Dish should pay you to watch the HD provided!


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## kf4omc (Apr 11, 2006)

jal said:


> An "activation charge" for your own USB storage device--that's exactly the sort of thing that made me leave Dish after 9 years. This nickel and diming by adding on every fee conceivable is nuts--an "enabling fee," a per DVR fee, a $20 HD fee, and now an "activation charge fee" for current subscribers. Wow!


Dish Network has to recoup the investment it spent to bring this feature to you. It is not wrong for them to charage a fee for this feature. Just because you pay for the Basic features you think you should get all the extras too? It cost dish Money to bring you these extra features it is only fair that Dish charges you a fee for them if you want to use them.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

kf4omc said:


> Dish Network has to recoup the investment it spent to bring this feature to you. It is not wrong for them to charage a fee for this feature. Just because you pay for the Basic features you think you should get all the extras too? It cost dish Money to bring you these extra features it is only fair that Dish charges you a fee for them if you want to use them.


I had thought that this was a "feature" you paid for with the cost of the 622. This was always a part of the "sell" even though it was not ready yet.

$6 charge for DVR's - Why?
$6 HD fee if you own a 622 but do not want HD- Why?

Now they want to charge you to turn on a feature that was paid for with the cost of the 622?

Each time they add more fees I reduce my programming to compensate. When will they learn that people do not like the feeling that they are bing ripped off.

How about this Dish... how about some consideration for those idiots who bought their 622's (and you still charge then a rental fee renamed of course) or those who paid $200 to rent a 622 (that you now give for free or a much reduced cost)

Do you think we paid already for this?

Someday, and that day will come eventually, I will be able to pay for the 4 channels I watch and nothing more. Someday I will be able to pay for each show I watch and nothing more. Let those who stare at their TV 24/7 pay the true cost and those who only watch a small or moderate amont pay a fair amount.

Oh well... until that day I will just further reduce the programming to a bare minimum. Keep adding more silly costs Dish... let's see how low I can go LOL

-JB


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

kf4omc said:


> Dish Network has to recoup the investment it spent to bring this feature to you. It is not wrong for them to charage a fee for this feature. Just because you pay for the Basic features you think you should get all the extras too? It cost dish Money to bring you these extra features it is only fair that Dish charges you a fee for them if you want to use them.


Yep, they could just make the basic charge for service a lot higher and give you everything. But, then some would say it is too high and I don't think I should have to pay for some item and some would expect a discount for not using it.


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## booger (Nov 1, 2005)

I'll be glad to pay for the USB hook-up charge! I can't wait to archive my recordings. Especially when HD content takes up so much room. E* just keeps getting better and better IMO.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

booger said:


> I'll be glad to pay for the USB hook-up charge! I can't wait to archive my recordings. Especially when HD content takes up so much room. E* just keeps getting better and better IMO.


You're serious?

*rolls eyes*


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## pvcleave (Mar 20, 2007)

jrb531 said:


> I had thought that this was a "feature" you paid for with the cost of the 622. This was always a part of the "sell" even though it was not ready yet.
> 
> $6 charge for DVR's - Why?
> $6 HD fee if you own a 622 but do not want HD- Why?
> ...


I have been with almost 10 years and do not under start this nickel and dimeing. I will be leaving when FIOS TV is available in my area at the end of the year.

For those of you defending Dish, tell me what costs are we offsetting with the $6 DVR fee? And I think the activation fee for USB drives is ridicules, especially if it is anything more than a dollar or two. I pay over $100 a month, 30% - 40% is the nickel and dime stuff, I expect them to keep there products competitive.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

All the additional fees are just ways they can fudge the numbers and have commercials announcing you can have Dish Network for only $29.99! (Small print, not including locals, most major channels, HD, additional features, fees, taxes, surcharges etc....) So for your $29.99 your bill is about $100. Its like a when they advertise a car for $199 a month, not including tax, license, etc... etc...and for the stripped down model etc...actual bill you pay each month for the $199 a month car? About $399. Its all a game. They'll push it as far as they can until (1) they loose too many sales/customers or (2) they get sued for false advertising.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It is all personal preference ... If you don't want to pay E*'s fees (minimal or not) go find someone else to give your money to. You're free to try to find a company where you won't end up paying more through dollars than "nickles and dimes". (Free within the commitments you have made.)

Personally I see more charges from the other guys ... perhaps not the one time fees that are easy to target, but the overall cost of having service. It all depends on what you want out of your provider.

Find it and enjoy it. No amount of moaning and groaning is going to change the facts.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm wondering why we don't see software maitenance fee. Or 'activation fee' for new feature like PIP or NBR or VOD or DishComm or DishONLINE or <you name it>.
Dish spending a lot of money for the process ! We should pay for that.


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## sansha (Apr 27, 2007)

JohnH said:


> Yep, they could just make the basic charge for service a lot higher and give you everything. But, then some would say it is too high and I don't think I should have to pay for some item and some would expect a discount for not using it.


Gee you mean that they could take all the sports networks that I have no interest in out of my package, because they make the package too high and I'd like a discount for not using it.

The argument doesn't exactly work across the board, does it?

I don't know if I'll be adding the USB hookup fee, but I guess I might and I'll pay it. Compared to what they are hosing me for monthly in general since I got HD, it's probably a bargain


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## cdub998 (Aug 16, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> I
> $6 charge for DVR's - Why?
> $6 HD fee if you own a 622 but do not want HD- Why?
> -JB


I understand the $6 HD fee. Time warner won't even let you get a HD DVR without coming to your house to make sure you have an HDTV (they call it installation). Many people want the added storage but don't want the HD.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> I had thought that this was a "feature" you paid for with the cost of the 622. This was always a part of the "sell" even though it was not ready yet.
> 
> $6 charge for DVR's - Why?
> $6 HD fee if you own a 622 but do not want HD- Why?
> ...


External USB for a enabling fee, I'll be all over that one when It comes available.
If you do not want to pay the enabling fee then drop Dish and get the DirecTV service and HR20. as I understand it their is no fee for an external eSATA drive. Of course it will replace the internal drive and only what is on the external drive will be accessable and you will have to do set up as if it were a new receiver. Dishes Solution will be able to let you use the internal and external by paying a one time enableing fee as I understand it. Which is better is up to you.

You are getting worked up over a fee nobody is forcing you to pay. You don't know what the fee will be and it is an optional fee.

To answer your questions. 
"$6 charge for DVR's - Why?"
why do car makers have a higher profit margin on luxury and large cars and low margins on small cheap cars? They both do the same thing, Why is First Class a higher cost than economy on airlines. People will pay more for Luxury. 
I almost forgot the other answer, Because they can.

Which one is a more comfortable flight? 
Which one leaves you relaxed a bottom of the line Hyundai or a Large Cadillac?
You want the luxury of a DVR you pay more. Try paying and liking Tivo's monthly charge for a stand alone model.

"$6 HD fee if you own a 622 but do not want HD- Why?"

So Echostar should give you a more expensive to make DVR just so you can tune and record free HD. Dishnetwork is entitled to recoup their hardware subsidy either through the HD enabling fee or Your subscribing to HD channels. Fair is fair.
If you don't want to pay the HD enabling fee you should be using a 625.

It sounds to me like you need to go to basic cable and pay their DVR fee. Where I live that fee is $10 a month and all you need to get that bargain is basic cable.

Or buy a Tivo here are their rates: 
Prepay 1 year for $179 = $14.92 per month
Prepay 2 years for $299 = $12.46 per month 
Prepay 3 years for $299 = $8.31 per month

Or pay montly and only pay
$16.95 per month with 1-year commitment
$14.95 per month with 2-year commitment 
Special limited-time offer! $12.95 per month
with 3-year commitment

Of course you will need cable or an OTA antenna or satellite too.

Nodoy is forcing you to stay with Dishnetwork, plenty of options with a DVR.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

DVR - I can understand - I would bet the "broken receiver" happens more often (it's WHEN, not IF, a harddrive will fail). I understand the extra receiver fee, too.

Some of the rest, though....
Guess why I got a 625 and not a 622 ? 

And yes - I would like the USB drive option, just to have it as an option. But for keeping shows - it's really better to record on my PC, then make a DVD.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

James Long said:


> It is all personal preference ... If you don't want to pay E*'s fees (minimal or not) go find someone else to give your money to. You're free to try to find a company where you won't end up paying more through dollars than "nickles and dimes". (Free within the commitments you have made.)
> 
> Personally I see more charges from the other guys ... perhaps not the one time fees that are easy to target, but the overall cost of having service. It all depends on what you want out of your provider.
> 
> Find it and enjoy it. No amount of moaning and groaning is going to change the facts.


I beg to disagree James. While the "other" guys may rip us off less the fact is that we are still be ripped off. Change does not occur because we sit down and take it, saying nothing for fear of rocking the boat.

You are 100% correct in that the other guys rip us off more which is why I am with Dish in the first place. As of late, however, Dish has been inching more toward the other guys in regard to add-on fees.

It's almost as if they want to see how far they can push before we say no more. Then they back off ever so slightly and proclaim they have seen the light.

Dish is a business and they play the low end "we care about you and keeping fees low" to a hilt. If we all stop allowing ourselves to be played and using base costs instead of end-fees we could stop this sillyness.

I don't think it will happen anytime soon but in the interum I'll not keep my mouth shut and take it. If Dish wants to play games (like the others) then they have to accept that people will call shenanigans on them 

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

P Smith said:


> I'm wondering why we don't see software maitenance fee. Or 'activation fee' for new feature like PIP or NBR or VOD or DishComm or DishONLINE or <you name it>.
> Dish spending a lot of money for the process ! We should pay for that.


Don't give them any ideas LOL!

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

cdub998 said:


> I understand the $6 HD fee. Time warner won't even let you get a HD DVR without coming to your house to make sure you have an HDTV (they call it installation). Many people want the added storage but don't want the HD.


So company xyz rips you off more so it's ok for company abc to do it less?

This sort of logic amazes me. Wrong is wrong no matter how little it is.

Tell me what Dish provides me for the $6 a month that they do not provide non-DVR's for free?

Go ahead... I dare ya 

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> "$6 HD fee if you own a 622 but do not want HD- Why?"
> 
> So Echostar should give you a more expensive to make DVR just so you can tune and record free HD. Dishnetwork is entitled to recoup their hardware subsidy either through the HD enabling fee or Your subscribing to HD channels. Fair is fair.
> If you don't want to pay the HD enabling fee you should be using a 625.


Even if I went out and paid 100% full retail Dish still charges you $6 a month!

Why?

Please answer this one if you can.

As far as your other points... as I said before. Just because Dish rips you off less than other companies does NOT make it right.

Dish is just "less" wrong than the other companies but wrong they are.

-JB


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> So company xyz rips you off more so it's ok for company abc to do it less?
> 
> This sort of logic amazes me. Wrong is wrong no matter how little it is.
> 
> ...


It is called supply and demand. I am sure you would consider the big oil companies ripping you off with high gas price while they report record after record profit, did you stop driving?

It is true when there is less competition, you get "ripped off" more. So yes I am all for competition, but even in the best competitive world you still pay for enhanced services, in fact the more fancier and newer services often command a premium. This is not new at all.

If you don't think the extra $6 is worth it, then don't use that service. Complain about the extra $6 when it is the least cost among various providers will not get you anywhere, calling your representatives to voice opposition about a business merger or consolidation, now that may help.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

scooper said:


> DVR - I can understand - I would bet the "broken receiver" happens more often (it's WHEN, not IF, a harddrive will fail). I understand the extra receiver fee, too.
> 
> Some of the rest, though....
> Guess why I got a 625 and not a 622 ?
> ...


I agree but would this higher failure rate be part of the "rental" fee for the unit?

Want another silly question?

Why does it cost the same $6 a month to rent an expensive 622 vs a much much cheaper unit?

Anytime I see even numbers I grow suspicious.

With a DVR I need a few things for it to work.

1. Start time
2. End time
3. Program Name
4. Description

Hmmmm the last time I checked this is the very same info that non-DVR owners get for free. So what exactly does this "even" $6 a month pay for? Is there something technical pertaining to DVR's only that costs Dish $$$ each month over non-DVR's?

Look... if Dish want to change more "rental" $$$ for a DVR then I can understand this. It makes sense that a DVR costs more to make and breaks down more due to moving parts or whatnot.

So now if I want to avoid this "rental" fee then I can just buy my own unit. If it breaks then I pay to fix it.

Anyone care to try and answer this question...

If I buy my 622 for $600 (or whatever it costs) then why does the $6 "rental" fee then change to another fee that just happens to be $6 also?

All I ever get when I ask these questions is...

"but the other guy charges you more"

This is not an answer. This is an excuse.

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

jacmyoung said:


> It is called supply and demand. I am sure you would consider the big oil companies ripping you off with high gas price while they report record after record profit, did you stop driving?
> 
> It is true when there is less competition, you get "ripped off" more.


Yes I agree but the last time I checked I did not see "anyone" defending the oil companies like some defend Dish here.

As I said before... I stay with Dish because they do rip you off less (even if they are moving in the wrong direction) but this does not mean that we should ever try and delude ourselves that they are not rippingus off.

-JB


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2007)

Dish's fees are higher than DirecTV for some services and lower for others. The $20 HD access fee seems kind of steep, but they also have more HD channels than any other provider. If DirecTV holds the line on its HD pricing (currently about $10 a month) as it goes to 100 or more HD channels, Dish is going to seem expensive by comparison. 

DirecTV's HR20 has an eSATA port and doesn't currently charge for using it, but it also isn't officially supported. You have to use it at your own risk. If it doesn't work, it's your problem, not theirs.

If you really want to be nickle-and-dimed, you could always switch to cable and pay a monthly fee on each DVR in your house in addition to cable's already-steep pricing. And you probably won't have any options at all for adding storage to it.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

rcoleman111 said:


> Dish's fees are higher than DirecTV for some services and lower for others. The $20 HD access fee seems kind of steep, but they also have more HD channels than any other provider. If DirecTV holds the line on its HD pricing (currently about $10 a month) as it goes to 100 or more HD channels, Dish is going to seem expensive by comparison.
> 
> DirecTV's HR20 has an eSATA port and doesn't currently charge for using it, but it also isn't officially supported. You have to use it at your own risk. If it doesn't work, it's your problem, not theirs.
> 
> If you really want to be nickle-and-dimed, you could always switch to cable and pay a monthly fee on each DVR in your house in addition to cable's already-steep pricing. And you probably won't have any options at all for adding storage to it.


So Dish only charges you one DVR fee for your entire house no matter how many DVR's you have? This is news to me. I think I'll be upgrading my 501 in the basement to a better unit since I am already paying the $6 DVR fee on my 622.

-JB


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

This thread is starting to become identical to about a dozen other "why is this fee charged" threads... so much for the Chat discussion!

But while we are off-topic anyway... I can't take people seriously who say "why should I sit back and take it" who are sitting back and taking it! For all the "we want change"... some of the same folk continue to be Dish customers, complain that the evil corporation is ripping them off, but continue to pay for the service that is completely optional!

Think Dish is ripping you off? Leave and go somewhere else, then complain all you want about Dish and why they made you leave... but as long as you keep paying, you are saying you are OK with things as they are.

As for me, I actually am OK with things and so I continue to be a happy Dish customer!


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

HDMe said:


> This thread is starting to become identical to about a dozen other "why is this fee charged" threads... so much for the Chat discussion!
> 
> But while we are off-topic anyway... I can't take people seriously who say "why should I sit back and take it" who are sitting back and taking it! For all the "we want change"... some of the same folk continue to be Dish customers, complain that the evil corporation is ripping them off, but continue to pay for the service that is completely optional!
> 
> ...


So lets see now...

1. Cable - Ultimate rip off without question!
2. DTV - Rips you off less but still more than Dish
3. Dish - Rips you off the least but still charges you for things without any service for them

So, according to your logic, I have no right to complain unless I cancel "all" pay TV and go without. Then I can complain all I want?

I cannot figure some people out. By the same logic...

1. Gas too high? Well don't complain until you sell your car and take public transportation
2. Food Prices too high? Well just eat bread and water. Pop a few vitamins and away you go.

Shall I go on?

Since when have we given up the right to express our thoughts and opinions when we feel something is wrong?

I am happy you feel that Dish places charges on our bill without providing any service for them. I am happy that you feel this is somehow justified because the other guys charge even more for no service.

I wonder how many issues in the world would be solved with the ole "sit back and take it" frame of thought.

Here is your chance to go on record *smiles*

Please tell me what you get for that $6 DVR that non-DVR owners do not get?
Please tell me what "owners" of the 622 get for that $6 HD fee?
Please tell me why it just "happens" to cost $6 to rent a cheap unit vs an expensive unit?

and the best of them...

If you rent a 622 you pay a $6 rental fee. If you buy a 622 then this $6 rental fee becomes another $6 fee. Why?

-JB


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## booger (Nov 1, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> You're serious?
> 
> *rolls eyes*


You're damn right I am!


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## booger (Nov 1, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> So lets see now...
> 
> 1. Cable - Ultimate rip off without question!
> 2. DTV - Rips you off less but still more than Dish
> ...


Then go with a BUD or just an antenna.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

booger said:


> Then go with a BUD or just an antenna.


So you can't answer the question either.

No one can.

How sad

-JB


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jrb531 said:


> I beg to disagree James.


You don't have to beg, just disagree. (Although I may have to beg to get a word in edgewise.)


> You are 100% correct in that the other guys rip us off more which is why I am with Dish in the first place. As of late, however, Dish has been inching more toward the other guys in regard to add-on fees.


I look for the best value ... That can be done without angry tirades. A small one time fee for such a valuable feature? Sorry, I'm not going to complain about it (much).

Do you want E* to provide the hard drive too? How dare they provide a unit with external hard drive capability without providing an external hard drive! An camera works in that USB slot ... guess E* should be providing those too. 



jrb531 said:


> Even if I went out and paid 100% full retail Dish still charges you $6 a month


Why would anyone pay full price when the lease costs the same per month? Seems kinda silly. The only reason to have a "full price" is to have a price point to point to if someone does not return their receiver off of lease or destroys it.

BTW: Keep the insults to a minimum.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> Yes I agree but the last time I checked I did not see "anyone" defending the oil companies like some defend Dish here.
> 
> ...
> -JB


But wait, even though I don't like the high gas price, did you realize that while the crude oil price has gone up 180% since 1998, the gas price is only up by 50% in the same period? (I could be wrong on the exact numbers) Why didn't you complain more back then?

What being able to record and playback without a VCR is not enough for you? Why would E* give you a 622 for the same price as a 211 when it cost them much more in R&D and manufacturing? What incentive does a provider have to provide any new service if they can not make some money out of it?

I don't think anyone is saying you can not complain, but rather pick your battle. The fact a lot of people did not care to respond is a good indication you are not getting anywhere.

I came here wanting to find out how aggressive E* is in response to D*'s 150 HDs and Comcast's 800 HDs claim. I have not got a clear answer yet. So far Charlie was saying they would stay competitive but will be a little behind until 2008 when the two new sats are up, am I correct about this?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> Here is your chance to go on record *smiles*
> 
> Please tell me what you get for that $6 DVR that non-DVR owners do not get?
> Please tell me what "owners" of the 622 get for that $6 HD fee?
> ...


Since I don't work for Dish.. I cannot give you the reasoning behind why they feel they can charge the fees. However, here are my thoughts.

_Please tell me what you get for that $6 DVR that non-DVR owners do not get?_
Simple DVR Functionality. Tivo Charges for it. D* charges for it on a per account basis. Dish Charges for it on a per receiver basis. I am not too fond of it, but obviously the market is willing to bear it.

_ Please tell me what "owners" of the 622 get for that $6 HD fee?_
Are you talking about the 6$ HD fee if you don't sub to HD. Obviously a deterent fee to deter people from using and HD receiver for non HD use. Just like the phone line fee if you are not hooked up. I know there are use cases where this fee may come into play in you are using it for HD use (OTA for example), but that would be my guess why the fee.

_ Please tell me why it just "happens" to cost $6 to rent a cheap unit vs an expensive unit?_
Don't understand your question.. If you are talking about the addl receiver fee and the lease fees. My understanding is that is common in the industry to pay for each receiver you have for the most part. IF you are talking why one common fee receivers in general... Well my guess is simplicity.

_ If you rent a 622 you pay a $6 rental fee. If you buy a 622 then this $6 rental fee becomes another $6 fee. Why?_
Well at the end.. you give back the 622 if you lease and you get to keep it if you buy it. Actually that is why I leased mine. My guess is they want to make leasing more attractive than purchasing.

Like others have said... in the end we all have choices on what service to pick. If you think overall you are being charged to much and that you are being overcharged compared to the industry you have the right to complain to a reasonable level and in the end as a consumer you have the power to change your provider to one that fits your needs and fits what you consider reasonable charging for services.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> So you can't answer the question either.
> 
> No one can.
> 
> ...


JB, Dish charges the fees they do for exactly the same reason that all of your other options do - because most people will pay it, including you by your own admission. So, complain all you want, but realize that you are part of the problem that you're complaining so bitterly about.

That's even sadder...


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Since I don't work for Dish.. I cannot give you the reasoning behind why they feel they can charge the fees. However, here are my thoughts.
> 
> _Please tell me what you get for that $6 DVR that non-DVR owners do not get?_
> Simple DVR Functionality. Tivo Charges for it. D* charges for it on a per account basis. Dish Charges for it on a per receiver basis. I am not too fond of it, but obviously the market is willing to bear it.
> ...


Thank you for being the first person to even attempt to answer. BTW I'm sorry for moving the topid so far over. Reading this fee on top of all the others just seemed to add gas to the fire.

I just wanted someone, anyone for that matter, to just come out and say what these fees are...

They charge because they can

Nothing more and as such I'll return the thread to it's original intent.

-JB


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## mikeyinokc (Jan 11, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> You're serious?
> 
> *rolls eyes*


I'm with Booger....I'll be glad to pay when I can get it......There's no free ride on anything.....What make you think you paid for that feature when you got your 622? I don't remember Dish telling me that it would be free when it became available.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jrb531 said:


> Nothing more and as such I'll return the thread to it's original intent.


Actually I already took care of that. This thread exists for your fee complaints now.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

to jrb531 - you forget classic case: 501 and 508 vs 510 with DVR[PVR] fee !


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

I paid that fee when I upgraded to 510 from the 508. Did I like it? Of course not, but for what I was getting, it was worth it to me. 

And that's the main point here, if the fee for enabling the ability to offload to external storage is reasonable to me (meaning is it worth it and can I afford it), I'll pay it because I want that ability. Would I prefer it to be free? Sure, who wouldn't!

Once again, it's all personal preference.


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## sgip2000 (Jun 5, 2007)

jrb531 said:


> I agree but would this higher failure rate be part of the "rental" fee for the unit?
> 
> Want another silly question?
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you by the way.


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## razorbackfan (Aug 18, 2002)

I came to Dish from Cox cable, now if you want to discuss silly fees for everything, let's talk Cox cable.

I have no problems with Dish charging for a USB connection fee. If I don't want to use that service, I won't pay it, if I do, I will. I think it's a great idea myself (the USB thingy) and I don't mind paying for this service at all.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

This is the same thing as charging for a VCR (or today-a DVD) connection fee.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> Even if I went out and paid 100% full retail Dish still charges you $6 a month!
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


And if you were renting the 622 with no HD subscription then you'd be be paying a rental fee and a HD enabling fee and a DVR fee. They are not charging you the enabling fee instead of the Rental fee. If you own your own you'll save the whole big $6?? a month rental fee. To me the payback period is to long.

I have a Dishplayer and a 721 and a VIP622 in use. I'm also subbed to the HD pack so I'm paying the mirroring fee for two units and a DVR fee for one. Oh well that's life.... If I junked the two fee free units and got a 625 I might break even between the rental fee and 1 mirror fee vs no rental fee and 2 mirror fees. And have to listen to the noise from the family as they have to learn a new DVR and where's my recordings and so on.

Sometimes life is compromise or hit your head against the wall.


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## nataraj (Feb 25, 2006)

Do we know how much is the fee ? I don't mind paying a small amount (less than $10) ... but if its high then we would have to wonder why.

I guess we are used to getting small features added for free ....


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

According Scott's informants $20-$30
http://www.satelliteguys.us/924371-post442.html


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Only a rumor, of course. Let's wait for the facts.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Not sure about the rumor mill... but actually $20-$30 makes sense. Charlie himself noted how cheap a 500GB external drive can be had for these days... so Dish can't price their one-time fee anywhere near that or it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I'm hoping for $10-$20... but $30 is probably about the most they could possibly hope to squeeze out of this.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> If you own your own you'll save the whole big $6?? a month rental fee. To me the payback period is to long.


No... if you own your 622 they do not charge you a $6 rental fee but then they add some other silly $6 fee.

So you pay the $6 if you rent or own. This is utter and complete BS.

-JB


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

$30 one time, I could live with it. Can you imagine how much money DirecTV is saving with the external drive being an unsupported but working feature. I suspect we may see more things like this in the future. Microsoft has Powertoys for free, unsupported.Unsupported feature means no call center time spent explaining how to do it and what you need and all the other types of calls such as, Gee I turned on the hr20 and it has different shows than yesterday. CSR Sir, do you have an external drive? Customer, yes. CSR, is it turned on? Customer it's plugged in. CSR, is the power light on? Customer, no, does it need to be? and so on. Well you can imagine. I used this scenario since the HR20 external drive replaces rather the internal as if it were a new box needing setup again. the Dishnetwork external will be additional storage so that will be nice.

So on the basis that it will raise calls for suport and I'm sure it will raise call volume somewhat. Charging to use it to help cover future support and current development costs seems reasonable to me. IMHO of course.

Having the USB drive be external means mor error trappign will be needed to keep from crashing the 622 when Joe non tech customer does silly things like turning off the external at night or whatever silly thing they do. 

Anybody want to bet a lot of these externals do not end up sitting on top of the 622 getting cooked and raising the 622 temps? I don't gamble and I'd bet on them being stacked. How many have these boxes in their entertainment centers and keep the glass doors closed to reduce noise?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jrb531 said:


> No... if you own your 622 they do not charge you a $6 rental fee but then they add some other silly $6 fee.


Every additional receiver gets an "Additional Receiver Fee" ... as of last year the price was $5 for extra SD receivers and $6 for HD receivers. You will only be charged _that_ $6 fee if your 622 is not your primary receiver. There is no "Additional Receiver Fee" on a leased receiver.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> So you pay the $6 if you rent or own. This is utter and complete BS.


Around here, Time Warner cable still has their analog tier of about 60-70 channels. Until very recently, it used to cost $5 mirroring fee for each outlet. Even though no box was required unless you wanted a scrambled premium or digital tier... they would charge $5 just for splitting the line and running to another TV.

Not sure what the official policy is, but I've heard a couple of different cable installers say they don't charge the $5 mirroring fee anymore just for a split to another analog TV without a receiver box.

But the point here is... cable has charged for additional connections even when they didn't provide another receiver and didn't boost signal strength to account for the split in the line. At least with Dish you have another receiver and aren't sacrificing signal levels to get to that other TV.


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## Ohioankev (Jan 19, 2006)

pvcleave said:


> I have been with almost 10 years and do not under start this nickel and dimeing. I will be leaving when FIOS TV is available in my area at the end of the year.
> 
> For those of you defending Dish, tell me what costs are we offsetting with the $6 DVR fee? And I think the activation fee for USB drives is ridicules, especially if it is anything more than a dollar or two. I pay over $100 a month, 30% - 40% is the nickel and dime stuff, I expect them to keep there products competitive.


What's the sense in having a 622 HD reciever and not having HD beamed to your house ? Doesn't that defeat the purpose considering the fact people say that the SD picture on the 622 is really low quality ?

I don't really support the activation charge, but seriously, $10 isn't really all that bad for a one time fee. I can think of worse ways to spend $10 and I probably have. I think of the $10 fee as a way of DISH saying you can use any USB hard drive but you're going to have to pay us to get the drivers downloaded in your reciever.

Also just to mention the local cable company charges $9.99/month for shoddy DVR service compared to DISH.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

pvcleave said:


> I have been with almost 10 years and do not under start this nickel and dimeing. I will be leaving when FIOS TV is available in my area at the end of the year. ...


I was going to consider jumping to Fios TV, which is now available in my neighborhood. (I already have Fios www and phone.) I looked at the two DVR's that Fios offer and I'm afraid they are not very well featured - I'll stay with Dish because of my two 622's.


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

I don't think a one time activation charge is that bad. Another monthly fee would be too much.

In response to other fees that have been discussed:
I have never agreed with the $6 per DVR fee especially on the 510 that does not have name based recording does it?

I also don't agree with the HD enabling fee for $6 for Vip receivers if you don't subscribe to a HD package. Some people just want it for HD locals only and shouldn't have to pay another $6.00.

I think Dish is one the best option for people who don't want to spend a lot of money on TV. You can get locals only or the Dish Family package for under $25 a month. Dish gives more programming options than most cable and satellite operators do. They also have the capability of putting satellite in 4 rooms with only one additional receiver fee. Directv does not offer the option.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Ohioankev said:


> What's the sense in having a 622 HD reciever and not having HD beamed to your house ? Doesn't that defeat the purpose considering the fact people say that the SD picture on the 622 is really low quality ? ...


Because you live in the big city and get many, many HD OTA Network signals. Dish does all the hardware development, to include the ATSC tuner and don't pay full boat. 

The "people" that say that the SD picture is low quality are far out numbered by folks that know of what they speak.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Ohioankev said:


> <skip>
> I don't really support the activation charge, but seriously, *$10 *isn't really all that bad for a one time fee. I can think of worse ways to spend *$10 *and I probably have. I think of the *$10 fee *as a way of DISH saying you can use any USB hard drive but you're going to have to pay us to get the drivers downloaded in your reciever.
> 
> Also just to mention the local cable company charges $9.99/month for shoddy DVR service compared to DISH.


It was mentioned the fee will be $20-$30 !


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> It was mentioned the fee will be $20-$30 !


On the chat? I'll have to rewind that. If not on the chat it's just a rumor (as noted in the other thread).


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

I say we grab our pitchforks and revolt! ~snort~


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

braven said:


> I say we grab our pitchforks and revolt! ~snort~


:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:


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## Ohioankev (Jan 19, 2006)

P Smith said:


> It was mentioned the fee will be $20-$30 !


$30 is a little high, but $20 is fine. The reason is they'll have to pay someone in house to come up for a way to get the drivers to work in thier reciever. I don't know much about USB Harddrives but I know for other USB items my computer needs a driver to run them. So there might me some R&D fees on making the drivers compatible with the recievers or there could be some sort of licensing fee for the drivers itself straight from the HDD manufactuer.

Then again Charlie could be charging us this to pay for the lawsuits he had to put up with lately.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

They should be able to write a generic USB 1.1 / 2.0 harddrive driver that can work with existing filesystems easily enough. After all - Microsoft did....


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## Ohioankev (Jan 19, 2006)

scooper said:


> They should be able to write a generic USB 1.1 / 2.0 harddrive driver that can work with existing filesystems easily enough. After all - Microsoft did....


Okay wasn't sure if it worked like that. I know USB mouse/keyboards have a generic driver but wasn't aware that generic drivers could be made for external hard drives.


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## ClaudeR (Dec 7, 2003)

Yup, too many fees. My Time Warner install is on Monday - a one year introductory rate - better internet and more channels for the same $$ as I pay with TW and Dish. So long Dish. I'll still have my 921, although I probably won't be able to activate it in a year when my rate goes up.


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

E* has so many fees, they will start needing to charge a fee assessment fee to cover the administrative costs in keeping track of all of the fees. The remainder of the funds raised by that fee could be used for R&D of more fees.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

So far Dish thoroughly selected those HDD models for DVR/PVR ( exclude true Linux systems - 721/921) and limited to rough 10-12; would be unwise to them allow use ANY HDD model now. Should be at least AV grade.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

jsk said:


> E* has so many fees, they will start needing to charge a fee assessment fee to cover the administrative costs in keeping track of all of the fees. ...


Why not? Verizon charges a $2 monthly fee if I do not use my Land Line enough.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Don't know if they still do... but AT&T used to charge a billing fee! Yes, if you were with someone (say Bellsouth) for local and chose AT&T for your long distance... then they charged you $3.50 to send you a bill for the amount of phone calls you owed them money. I thought this was insane! So I immediately changed to Bellsouth as my long distance as well as loca. (this was all before the recent buyout)... and AT&T tried to charge me for the next 3 months anyway, and every time I would call they would credit it BUT then try to sell me on AT&T services. I finally told them I was tired of it, and I wouldn't call anymore and if I saw one more charge show up from them for a service I no longer had, they would hear from a lawyer. I heard nothing further... but did note that I saw on the news how AT&T had been doing that to a bunch of other customers and that is what finally called enough attention that they were forced to stop the tactic of billing you to get you to initiate a call so they could bypass the do-not-call restrictions. Anyway, the point here is that other companies have done far worse and fraudulently charged customers (and non-customers) in my experience.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

Ohioankev said:


> What's the sense in having a 622 HD reciever and not having HD beamed to your house ? Doesn't that defeat the purpose considering the fact people say that the SD picture on the 622 is really low quality ?
> 
> I don't really support the activation charge, but seriously, $10 isn't really all that bad for a one time fee. I can think of worse ways to spend $10 and I probably have. I think of the $10 fee as a way of DISH saying you can use any USB hard drive but you're going to have to pay us to get the drivers downloaded in your reciever.
> 
> Also just to mention the local cable company charges $9.99/month for shoddy DVR service compared to DISH.


I have friend who bought a HDTV & E in Nov. He doesn't sub to HD only AT 100.


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## nataraj (Feb 25, 2006)

P Smith said:


> According Scott's informants $20-$30
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/924371-post442.html


The basic fact is - Dish has already spent all the money (on s/w - and the initial hardware). So, it is purely a question of revenue. They sh(w)ould price it to get the max revenue - price it too high very few will pay it. Price it too low - revenue would be low.

My guess if, $10 will bring them more revenue than $30.

This is assuming there is no admin cost for each "activation". If they have that admin cost - then they did a poor job of it ...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Seems your math grade is not in par with the business  - $60K/year per SW person against millions of DVR.


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## Zero327 (Oct 10, 2006)

nataraj said:


> The basic fact is - Dish has already spent all the money (on s/w - and the initial hardware). So, it is purely a question of revenue. They sh(w)ould price it to get the max revenue - price it too high very few will pay it. Price it too low - revenue would be low.
> 
> My guess if, $10 will bring them more revenue than $30.
> 
> This is assuming there is no admin cost for each "activation". If they have that admin cost - then they did a poor job of it ...


If it was a monthly or annual fee you might (however unlikely) get away with a $10.00 fee. Evercrack and most online computer games are averaging between 14.95-19.99 a month last I heard, and this is permanant hardware we're discussing. You can expect something in the range of $20-25 with Charlie pushing the point that it's one time only, or possibly an annual fee. Truth be told, they could make it $50.00, people would still pay since it's "just a one time fee and free after that."

A one time fee across 25% (estimated demand) of all E* subs at $20:

$67,000,000

If the demand is great enough, I would NOT put it past Charlie to try and bank that annually.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Link said:


> I don't think a one time activation charge is that bad. Another monthly fee would be too much.
> 
> In response to other fees that have been discussed:
> I have never agreed with the $6 per DVR fee especially on the 510 that does not have name based recording does it?
> ...


The last time I called my cable company they wanted a rental fee for a box, then an additional fee on top of that if it were a DVR.

"Some people just want it for HD locals only and shouldn't have to pay another $6.00."

So Dishnetwork should provide you with more expensive hardware for the same rental fee so that you can pick up free HD locals with no return on their cost of the extra cost hardware? Not charging an HD enabling fee would be very bad business for them. How many would drop the HD service and locals if they could DVR them in HD for free?

I'm sorry but I believe you are just wrong on this part of your message.

As to the DVR fee on the 510, They have decide3d to go with a one price fits all model for that fee. You on the other hand are free to discontinue using the 510 and get a SD DVR that has name based recording. Or you could get a standalone Tivo and use it, Oh wait it costs a lot more per month for their fee.

So choosing to stay with a 510 that has no real advantages over a 508/510 or 721 beyond having a little more storage for a monthly fee is a choice.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

nataraj said:


> The basic fact is - Dish has already spent all the money (on s/w - and the initial hardware). So, it is purely a question of revenue. They sh(w)ould price it to get the max revenue - price it too high very few will pay it. Price it too low - revenue would be low.
> 
> My guess if, $10 will bring them more revenue than $30.
> 
> This is assuming there is no admin cost for each "activation". If they have that admin cost - then they did a poor job of it ...


Of course there is an admin cost for activating. CSRs all want to get paid as well as the cost of the call center. The only way to avoid the admin cost is make it a free feature and then the cost turns into a CSR cost for support calls. Can you imagine joe clueless calling for support and they don't even have en external drive or it is turned off or why doesn't it work when they have no external drive.

Going beyond Dishnetwork, My local cable company has a monthly rental fee for the remote as a seperate item form the monthly box rental fee.

Digital Cable Box, HD Cable Box or DVR$6.03
Remote Control$0.22
Premium Programming on Additional Outlets$1.50
Digital Cable Card$1.25

So looking at this fee structure for hardware It looks like each additional outlet pays $1.25 mirror fee, $6.03 box, and $0.22 for the remote unless you have a cable card ready TVset. So in this case cable could be cheaper for multiple TV sets if you are paying a rental fee per month and a mirror fee for each additional set. In my case since I own the additional boxes and have for many years then Dish is cheaper. I forget how long I've had the Dishplayer, however I got it when the DVR functions became available for it.

Family Cable (Price includes subscription to Broadcast Basic)$46.95 
Broadcast Basic$10.20

Yup there's a real bargain. Family cable 61 channels + locals... Weee!
Includes everything in Broadcast Basic plus the following channels:

A&E
ABC Family
AMC
Animal Planet
BET
Bravo
C-SPAN
C-SPAN2
CN8
CNBC
CNN
CNN Headline News
Cartoon Network
Comedy Central
Court TV
Discovery Channel
Discovery HD Theater*
Disney Channel
E!
ESPN
ESPN HD†
ESPN2
FOX News Channel
FSN NY
FSN NY HD†
FX
Food Network
Fuse
Game Show Network*
HGTV
Lifetime
MOJO†
MSG
MSG HD†
MSNBC
MTV
MTV2
News 12 Traffic & Weather
Nickelodeon
Religious Programming
Sci-Fi Channel
SoapNet*
Speed Channel*
Spike TV
SportsNet NY HD†
SportsNet New York
TBS
TNT
TNT in HD†
TV Land
The History Channel
The Learning Channel
The Weather Channel
Travel Channel
Turner Classic Movies
USA Network
Universal HD†
VH1
WE tv
YES HD†

†High definition (HD) channels require a high definition digital cable box and an HD-ready television set.

*Available only with a digital cable box.

The only one I see some demand for would be Yes HD.


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## Cocoatreat (May 16, 2006)

ok i have been with e* for quite some time now. i dont complain about the "hd" fee or the $5 fee for having an additional fee. seeing as i subscribe to the top pier i lose a charge. however, the thing that i do hate paying is the $5 fee for not being hooked to a land line. i think its unfair, since i am a single person and to pay for a landline and a cell fone it just doesnt work. so this fee for me is horrible. i understand it, but i am not using my recievers at different residences; but it is almost convincing me to "share" mine with a relative! now THAT would save money!


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

E* could very well HAVE to charge an enabling fee for external storage. Apple charged a small $1.99 fee to enable the new Wireless N feature on already sold laptops at the beginning of the year. This had nothing to do with being greedy and everything to do with a new accounting law (enacted by congress) that says that software vendors must either charge for significant enhancements to already shipping products or recognize some of the initial revenue as deffered. Basically the law states that when a significiant feature enhancment is added to a product like this they are required now to charge customers who have ALREADY purchased the product.

More info here:

http://www.nysscpa.org/printversions/cpaj/2005/405/p38.htm


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## koralis (Aug 10, 2005)

I don't understand it that way... from your link:



> If contract accounting is not required, SOP 97-2 requires that the vendor's fee be allocated to the various elements based on vendor-specific objective evidence (VSOE) of fair value for each element. *VSOE is limited to the price charged by the vendor for each element when it is sold separately.* This requires the deferral of revenue until VSOE can be established for all elements in the arrangement or until all elements have been delivered. If PCS is the only undelivered element in the arrangement, however, the entire fee can be recognized ratably over the term of the PCS contract. In addition, recognition of revenue must be deferred if undelivered elements are essential to the functionality of any delivered elements.
> ...
> A multiple-element arrangement under SOP 97-2 and EITF 00-21 where the undelivered elements are not essential to the functionality of the delivered elements. Company A sells computer software. On May 20, a customer purchases a license to use the software, along with a computer system, for $1,900. The computer system consists of a CPU that will contain the software, a monitor, and a keyboard. On May 30, Company A delivers the software to the customer without the computer system. *Each item can be purchased separately from Company A* as follows: $1,000 for the software, $700 for the CPU, $300 for the monitor, and $100 for the keyboard. The software is a major focus of the sale and is not incidental to the other products. Although the software could function with a readily available computer system manufactured by others, it is essential to the functionality of the CPU. The customer is entitled to a refund equal to the separate price of any undelivered item.


Note that if the company assigns a value of 0 to the item, then it doesn't impact anything. This law specifically is set up to deal with scenarios where companies promise multiple features that can be purchased seperately, but that aren't currently available. They're not allowed to consider all of the money as being recieved until the goods have actually been delivered.

The 622 idea... if, when making the initial sale, Dish had said "pay us an extra $20 and when we get USB storage working we'll enable it for you." Dish then can't count that $20 towards revenues until they actually roll out the feature to prevent accounting scandel by stacking the books.

Companies shoudl be able to a assign a value of $0 to an item though, and then it doesn't have any impact at all. If an item is not available to be purchased seperately it wouldn't appear to be impacted by this as far as I can tell.

With regards to your example with Apple, I assume the difference is that Apple was charging new customers extra money for Wireless N so that they couldn't give it away for free to the older customers?


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## smiwman (Jul 1, 2007)

jrb531 said:


> No... if you own your 622 they do not charge you a $6 rental fee but then they add some other silly $6 fee.
> 
> So you pay the $6 if you rent or own. This is utter and complete BS.
> 
> -JB


okay its like this the lease reciever fee or additional outlet fee for $6 is not for the equipment its for the services you get on that equipment if you have two recievers then for the additional reciever there is additiinal charge of $6 if the reciever is high definition irrespective of whether its rented or purchased lets imagine that a dish customer has one reciever in his bedroom and another one in his kid s bedroom but dish does not two bills one for the cust and another for customer s son it only charges $6 for the additional reciever this is what was told to me when i called them and to me it makes sense


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## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

cdub998 said:


> I understand the $6 HD fee. Time warner won't even let you get a HD DVR without coming to your house to make sure you have an HDTV (they call it installation). Many people want the added storage but don't want the HD.


Not true in Austin, Texas. I had two HD DVRs for 2 years from TW before I got my HD TVs.


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## kktk (Jul 6, 2007)

Not to forget....the 18 month contract 

It makes me mad and that's why I still havent switched to DVR programming or to Dish.


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