# Viacom Channel Takedown Information (Revisited)



## James Long

From the archives (Original Post) - with a few corrections but no guarantee of accuracy ...
Here is the list of channels that may be shut off:
BET
Nickelodeon /Nick At Night
MTV
MTV2
NOGGIN
TV Land
VH1
CMT
Spike TV
Comedy Central
Flix
The Movie Channel
Sundance

Please note that Showtime is not in danger of being removed.

We may also lose the following CBS Stations in these cities:
KEYE Austin, TX
WJZ Baltimore, MD
WBZ Boston, MA
WBBM Chicago, IL
KTVT Dallas-Fort Worth, TX
KCNC Denver, CO
WWJ Detroit, MI
WFRV Green Bay, WI
WCBS NewYork, NY
WFOR Miami, FL
KYW Philadelphia, PA
KDKA Pittsburg, PA
KUTV Saly Lake City, UT
KPIX San Francisco, CA
KCBS Los Angeles, CA

We may lose the following UPN stations:
WUPA - Atlanta
WSBK - Boston
WWHO - Columbus
KTXA - Dallas
WKBD - Detroit
WNDY - Indianapolis
WBFS - Miami
WUPL - New Orleans
WGNT - Norfolk
KAUT - Oklahoma City
WPSG - Philadelphia
WNPA - Pittsburgh
WLWC - Providence
KMAX - Sacramento
KBHK - San Francisco
KSTW - Seattle
WTOG - Tampa
WTVX - West Palm Beach

Misc stations:
WJMN - Escanba, MI
KCAL - Los Angeles, CA
KUSG - Washington, UT​
Just so we know what all the OTHER threads are talking about. :grin:


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## amit5roy5

When you call DISH, they mention this. But they should let us tell DISH about what we think about this issue. The reason is because it can be possible that DISH is the causor and are blaming Viacom. Also, I wonder how DirecTV, Cox and Comcast renewed their contract. Oh well. I guess no Nickelodeon for my family.


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## homeskillet

How would you react to this if you were an advertiser on one of these Viacom channels? You've probably already paid for an ad, and to find out that 8 million people will not get to see it because of this (8 million enough people?) 

Would you think some Advertisers would pull out from Viacom and take their business to another channel where they know DISH would be viewing?


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## music_beans

I am ready for the takedown of ViaCORN. Just watch turner instead.


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## amit5roy5

I remember one Charlie Chat about him complaining that they had to uplink the "must carry" locals. I think the Echostar CEO cannot blame certain things to he and his company. I do not mind paying a few extra dollars for these channels.


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## homeskillet

Honestly... looking at the list I'm not going to miss any Viacom channels. They don't own any local stations in my area, and my distant CBS comes from Atlanta no biggies there. I will lose Denver CBS but oh-well. About the only other channel I watch sometimes is Comedy Central... will miss South Park but life goes on. Also, I watch UPN on WWOR in New York... no loss there either.


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## amit5roy5

I can live, but the kids in my family will die without Nick.  Also, I think another channel may also be in this list. It is "Nickelodeon GAS" may be removed, too. This channel is avalable in Ameica's Top 180 (was Top 150).


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## amit5roy5

Just to tell you all, they posted it to the bottom-right of the dish network website, all the channels that are going to be removed.


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## James Long

BET - Comedy Central - MTV - MTV2
Nick Games & Sports
Nickelodeon/Nick at Night (East and West)
NOGGIN - VH1 - VH1 Classic​But that does NOT include the broadcast channels, which have had a slate waiting in the wings since December.

JL


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## jasonjpw

justalurker said:


> BET - Comedy Central - MTV - MTV2
> Nick Games & Sports
> Nickelodeon/Nick at Night (East and West)
> NOGGIN - VH1 - VH1 Classic​But that does NOT include the broadcast channels, which have had a slate waiting in the wings since December.
> 
> JL


They should drop Nick Games and Sports and VH1 Classic. These stations suck.


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## amit5roy5

They should add Nicktoons TV. We know a family with Comcast Digital Cable who has that channel.


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## jasonjpw

Yeah kids like cartoons not NICK GAS.


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## JohnH

homeskillet said:


> Honestly... looking at the list I'm not going to miss any Viacom channels. They don't own any local stations in my area, and my distant CBS comes from Atlanta no biggies there. I will lose Denver CBS but oh-well. About the only other channel I watch sometimes is Comedy Central... will miss South Park but life goes on. Also, I watch UPN on WWOR in New York... no loss there either.


Once again: Distant networks will not be affected by this "takedown". Distant Networks and Superstations are subject to a "Statutory License" and are not negotiable.

You may notice one difference involving the Distant CBS stations from New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Denver. The channel numbers may change by a couple of numbers. If anyone still has CBS Dallas-Fort Worth as a distant, there does not appear to be a plan to keep it up during the "takedown".

Having said all this, there are likely to be some technical glitches. Don't get excited. Ride it out for a while and see what happens. The info card which would show up is still talking about the Utah Tax Repeal. Maybe a good sign.


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## freakmonkey

JohnH said:


> Once again: Distant networks will not be affected by this "takedown". Distant Networks and Superstations are subject to a "Statutory License" and are not negotiable.
> 
> You may notice one difference involving the Distant CBS stations from New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Denver. The channel numbers may change by a couple of numbers. If anyone still has CBS Dallas-Fort Worth as a distant, there does not appear to be a plan to keep it up during the "takedown".
> 
> Having said all this, there are likely to be some technical glitches. Don't get excited. Ride it out for a while and see what happens. The info card which would show up is still talking about the Utah Tax Repeal. Maybe a good sign.


AS far as DFW why is that going to be a problem if they can target receivers for a sports black out couldn't they handle it the same way and keep the distant net DFW receivers on?

Also mentioned above people say they won't mind paying xtra to keep the viacom suite.

I can't wait to see the E* bashing threads that will start when E* says rates are going up to cover the cost of keeping viacom.

E* can't win. If they stand their ground viacom is gone. If viacom stays a rate increase is inevitable.


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## JohnH

freakmonkey said:


> AS far as DFW why is that going to be a problem if they can target receivers for a sports black out couldn't they handle it the same way and keep the distant net DFW receivers on?


It will be far more important to have an information slate up(not just a blackout) for the local DFW subscribers than to maintain the Distant. In the other 4 Distant O&O situations they have assigned a separate channel number for the Distant channel to be used in the event of a "takedown".


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## Nyte_eyes

jasonjpw said:


> They should drop Nick Games and Sports and VH1 Classic. These stations suck.


Umm, I happen to love VH1 classic, the rest of the channels I could do without.


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## FTA Michael

jasonjpw said:


> They should drop Nick Games and Sports and VH1 Classic. These stations suck.


Hey, I like VH1 Classic. They should only drop the channels that *I* don't like. :grin:


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## Nick

freakmonkey said:


> ...I can't wait to see the E* bashing threads that will start when E* says rates are going up to cover the cost of keeping viacom.
> 
> E* can't win. If they stand their ground viacom is gone. If viacom stays a rate increase is inevitable.


I was thinking the same thing, freak. Charlie is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. Pesonally, I fully support his efforts to hold the line on rates. I'm sure he is amenable to a reasonable bump from Viacon, but he has to stand firm against those _ESPN-style_ take it or leave it unjustified mega-increases.


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## Chris Blount

I've closed some of the other threads about the Viacom issue in hopes that we can confine most of the discussion to this thread. Thanks for your understanding.


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## jasonjpw

Other Numbers I found
Cbs-viacom Stations Group Los Angeles, Ca 90028 (323) 460-3000
Viacom Productions Los Angeles, Ca 90024 (310) 234-5000 
Viacom Stations Group Los Angeles, Ca 90028 (323) 460-3000 
Viacom Station Sales Atlanta, Ga 30305 (404) 261-2227 
Viacom Mtv Networks Chicago, Il 60611 (312) 836-0668
Viacom Inc New York, Ny 10036 (212) 258-6000
Comedy Cental 323-956-5000

E* Message
Stations owned by Viacom have proposed excessive rate increases we feel are unreasonable. We always strive to control costs on behalf of our customers. We continue to work tirelessly to negotiate with Viacom so you do not lose your channels.

If you desire to continue to receive your channels and would like to speak with the CEO of Viacom, Mel Karmazin, he can be reached this weekend at 212-956-1007 or during business hours at 212-975-6500.


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## Chris Blount

Here's an article in Forbes about the issue.

http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/2004/03/05/rtr1288924.html


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## Guest

Two months ago, I signed a one year agreement with Dish, At that time, I agreed to subscribe to a service that provided me with certain channels that interested me for the next year. As of next Tuesday, it looks like the channels I contracted for with Dish will not exist. Is the contract null-in-void? You could argue that I signed up for a service, not a specific channel. If so, what if all the channels were taken down except for HSN. Would the contract then be cancellable? Where is the line that defines the service I signed up for?


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## Guest

I am month to month but the service agreement makes no mention of any particular channels. Dish is on the short end here people want viam ch's. Having viacom ch's will morelikley lead to price increase it is a no win situation for E*


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## HeavyC

The main channel I watch is Comedy Central. If they take away the Daily Show, South Park, The Chapelle Show, and Tough Crowd my daily TV watching will be cut by over 70% if not more. It's reguarly one of the only channels I even watch at nights. 

Spike might not be great, but I love Most Extreme Elimination Challenge, and one of my guilty pleasures is WWE on Monday Nights. Some of you talk like losing these channels is no big deal.

It's absolutley an enormous deal, and I think some people here are dillusional to think customers are just going to roll over and be loyal to Dish because "they're fighting the good fight". I could care less, I want the channels I signed my 1 year contract for.


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## Steve Mehs

Probably not Mitch. I don't have a copy of an Echostar customer agreement, but I'm sure it states in there somewhere, all programming, pricing and packaging is subject to change at any give time. And that's one of the terms you agreed to.


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## JM Anthony

Nick said:


> I was thinking the same thing, freak. Charlie is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. Pesonally, I fully support his efforts to hold the line on rates. I'm sure he is amenable to a reasonable bump from Viacon, but he has to stand firm against those _ESPN-style_ take it or leave it unjustified mega-increases.


I'm on your side on this one. Even if we lose the channels for a month or so, I'll sit tight with E* until something reasonable gets negotiated. Folding your cards too early on this one, Charlie, is only going to lead to greater demands in the future.


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## Chris Freeland

I still believe their will be either a last minute agreement or yet another extension come Monday morning, I still doubt any of these channels will be pulled. I agree with the conclusion of the Forbs article that Charlie has been dealt a losing hand and knows when it is time to fold, especially if it is true that Viacom is now offering E* the same deal it gave Comcast, Cox and D*, which is basically a 5% rate increase and the carriage of NichToons.


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## boba

Personally I might lose 1 channel that I watch, I would just find another channel. No big deal, actually since I got upset with DISH's lousy quality of signal and software bugs and switched to Directv last summer it will have no effect on me. Directv has already signed with Viacom and their March 1st price increase was $1-3 I don't think Charlie really has a greviance with Viacom.


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## Guest

There is no guarantee in any service contract that a certain channel or suite of channels will be available. 

We will end up with the viacom channels I just don't know how E* will do it with out a price increase. 

E* last price increase was a heated debate to say the least and that was just a couple of dollars per month. 

Cant wait to see what happens @ 12:00 pst on monday


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## Guest

Steve Mehs said:


> Probably not Mitch. I don't have a copy of an Echostar customer agreement, but I'm sure it states in there somewhere, all programming, pricing and packaging is subject to change at any give time. And that's one of the terms you agreed to.


So you agree that if Dish drops ALL channels, except for HSN, you are stuck with your contract? Hmmmmmm......


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## Nick

jasonjpw said:


> ...If you desire to continue to receive your channels and would like to speak with the CEO of Viacom, Mel Karmazin, he can be reached this weekend at 212-956-1007 or during business hours at 212-975-6500.


Why would any E* sub do that?

Calling Viacon to say you would like to continue to receive their channels is giving Viacon ammunition against E* in the negotiations. If you are going to tell Viacon anything, say you don't give a damn if they pull their channels, you're more interested in holding the line on your subscription rates, then add that you won't miss their channels at all. There are plenty of others to watch.

If you feel compelled to call or write someone, let Charlie know you support his position and to hold the line on rates.


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## Bobby94928

Steve Mehs said:


> Probably not Mitch. I don't have a copy of an Echostar customer agreement, but I'm sure it states in there somewhere, all programming, pricing and packaging is subject to change at any give time. And that's one of the terms you agreed to.


This is from the DishNetwork Residential Service Agreement, Section 1G:

G. Changes in Services offered. DISH Network reserves the right to change the Services that we offer, and our prices or fees related to such Services at any time. If the change affects you, we will provide you notice of the change and its effective date. The notice may be provided on your billing statement or by other communication permitted under Section 9B. In the event of a change in the contents of any programming, programming packages or other Services, you understand and agree that we have no obligation to replace or supplement the programming, programming packages or other Services previously offered that have been deleted, rearranged or otherwise changed. You further understand and agree you will not be entitled to any refund because of a change in the contents of any programming, programming packages, or other Services previously offered.

Source: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/RCA/index.shtml


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## greggg

I am sick and tired of every other company working things out. I love it, people are in it for themselves. I do not have an antenna option where I am at and will lose CBS. People here look to see if they are personally affected. If not it's like "too bad so sad for who is". I lose one minute of programming because of genious negotiator Ergen and i'm gone after 8 years.


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## mattyro

I was watchuing Comcast cable today in CT and we had a crawl at the bottom of pic saying-"Dish Network customers will lose Comedy central, and some other channels". They listed about 6 channels. Obviously it weas geared to thr ADVERTISERS on these channels so they could call Viacom and do...what? I dont know. All I know i9s I was watching cable in my bedroom where there is no Dish installed and got this crawl. Maybe Viacom is pacicking as well.


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## greggg

No Viacom isn't having a panic attack. This is Comcast's way of keeping people who were thinking about switching to E*. I Have been trying for well over four hours to get through to E* and can't. I take that as a good sign in that unhappy people are flooding the lines. For those here who do not think this is a big deal because they don't care about these channels, well turn on the quilt network, that will be put in their place, because Charlie will raise your rates to make up for the customers he loses


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## newsub

Bobby94928 said:


> This is from the DishNetwork Residential Service Agreement, Section 1G:
> 
> G. Changes in Services offered. DISH Network reserves the right to change the Services that we offer, and our prices or fees related to such Services at any time. If the change affects you, we will provide you notice of the change and its effective date. The notice may be provided on your billing statement or by other communication permitted under Section 9B. In the event of a change in the contents of any programming, programming packages or other Services, you understand and agree that we have no obligation to replace or supplement the programming, programming packages or other Services previously offered that have been deleted, rearranged or otherwise changed. You further understand and agree you will not be entitled to any refund because of a change in the contents of any programming, programming packages, or other Services previously offered.
> 
> Source: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/RCA/index.shtml


I told my dad that he will probably lose all those viacom stations monday and he told me if it happens he's cancelling his contract. He said he is paying dish all this money for these stations and now they're going to take them away from him so he's in his right to cancel his contract with them. I guess we'll see what the csr says when he calls monday to cancel.


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## bcw

It's just TV. The sun would still rise tomorrow if everyone lost all their TV. If TV is your only reason for living........


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## JohnH

greggg said:


> No Viacom isn't having a panic attack. This is Comcast's way of keeping people who were thinking about switching to E*. I Have been trying for well over four hours to get through to E* and can't. I take that as a good sign in that unhappy people are flooding the lines. For those here who do not think this is a big deal because they don't care about these channels, well turn on the quilt network, that will be put in their place, because Charlie will raise your rates to make up for the customers he loses


Comcast is not likely to be doing this. It is more likely that it is Viacom since it shows on more than one provider. There have been reports of seeing the same thing on DirecTV.


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## Mark Holtz

From what I read, the shutdown time would be monday at midnight PT. Charlie Chat is at 6 PM PT. It would be interesting to see what Charlie says Monday night at 6 PM... or if the Charlie Chat is postponed.


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## HeavyC

Regardless of what the service agreement says, all contracts have to be executed in good faith by both parties. That would definitely be a grey area considering the amount of channels Dish would be removing. Would they still be executing the contract in good faith? How honest and upfront with customers are they being? Just because the service agreement says all that doesn't mean it would ever actually hold up in court.


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## Link

Today Nickelodeon is showing Nick Toons TV all afternoon. Who needs a separate channel when they are showing it?

I never realized how many Viacom stations I don't even watch. I could care less about BET, Comedy Central, Spike TV, MTV, MTV2. CMT's new format is not that great and GAC is better anyhow. VH1 is ok but I can do without it. TV Land is the only good Viacom channel.


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## Mainstreet

Mitch said:


> So you agree that if Dish drops ALL channels, except for HSN, you are stuck with your contract? Hmmmmmm......


Yes!

This is an excerpt from the "Free Dish" customer agreement:


> *5. ALL PRICING, PROGRAMMING, AND PACKAGES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE.*


and...


> *All
> services are subject to the terms and conditions of the Residential Customer Agreement, which is made part of this Agreement. In the event of any
> conflict or inconsistency between this Agreement and the Residential Customer Agreement, the terms of this Agreement shall control.*


And from the Residential Customer Agreement (RCA): (http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/RCA/index.shtml)


> 7. LIMITATION OF OUR LIABILITY
> A. WE WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY INTERRUPTIONS IN SERVICE OR LIABLE FOR ANY DELAY OR FAILURE TO PERFORM, IF SUCH DELAY OR NONPERFORMANCE ARISES IN CONNECTION WITH THE TERMINATION OF ALL OR A PORTION OF THE SERVICES, THE RELOCATION OF ALL OR A PORTION OF THE SERVICES TO DIFFERENT SATELLITE(S), A CHANGE IN THE FEATURES AVAILABLE WITH YOUR DISH NETWORK DBS EQUIPMENT OR ANY ACTS OF GOD, FIRES, EARTHQUAKES, FLOODS, POWER OR TECHNICAL FAILURE, ACTS OF ANY GOVERNMENTAL BODY OR ANY OTHER CAUSE BEYOND OUR CONTROL. WE WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGE RESULTING FROM LOSS OF RECORDED MATERIAL OR THE PREVENTION OF RECORDING DUE TO ANY FAULT, FAILURE, DEFICIENCY OR DEFECT IN SERVICES OR EQUIPMENT. WE MAKE NO WARRANTY, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, REGARDING THE DISH NETWORK DBS EQUIPMENT OR ANY SERVICES FURNISHED TO YOU. ALL SUCH WARRANTIES ARE EXPRESSLY EXCLUDED. IN NO EVENT SHALL WE HAVE ANY LIABILITY FOR SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RELATING TO THE DBS EQUIPMENT OR RESULTING FROM OUR FURNISHING OR FAILURE TO FURNISH ANY SERVICES OR EQUIPMENT TO YOU, OR FROM ANY FAULT, FAILURE, DEFICIENCY OR DEFECT IN SERVICES OR EQUIPMENT FURNISHED TO YOU.


"8 yards" removed. Happy?


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## Nick

Gee, could you post another nine yards of boilerplate? I still have a few bits and bytes left on my computer for you to totally obliterate! :bang

~~~~~~~~~~~~

<edit>Not necessarily.


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## wcswett

Chris Blount said:


> Here's an article in Forbes about the issue.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/2004/03/05/rtr1288924.html


Excellent article, but they don't mention the underlying theme for the future of television. I believe that market forces are pushing for a gradual shift from advertising based revenue to pay-tv revenue. In the past CBS/Viacom and other network conglomerates have depended on advertising for their primary revenue stream and have charged only token amounts of money for rebroadcast. In recent years they have had to bundle more and more channels together to reach the same levels of ad revenue, forcing carriers to take all the channels or nothing. Now, as DVR's become more and more common, networks are going to have to increase their pay-tv revenue stream in order to compensate for unhappy advertisers. Cable and satellite viewers are obviously going to foot this bill, since it sure isn't going to come from folks who still have rabbit ears on the telly. It remains to be seen what Congress will do, but Charlie is making all of the above arguements and more in the hope of improving SHVIA when it's renewed this year. Congress and the FCC appear most interested in keeping OTA television viable first, then looking at issues of monopoly and fair trade practices. In the end I think we're going to get more access to network television via satellite and cable, but we're going to pay for it in the form of increased rebroadcast charges.

--- WCS


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## HeavyC

Look, you can put anything you want in a contract, but that doesn't make it legally binding. If it was argued that the removal of the channels caused the service to be fundamentally different and inadequate (which it could), I'm not so sure that agreement would hold up.

If Dish were to remove all channels but HSN and still try to collect a monthly payment, I don't think there is a judge on this planet that would side with them. 

It's kind of like those non-compete clauses companies have you sign saying you can't go work for a competitor. They hardly ever hold up in court.

Even if the service agreement is bidning there are other avenues that can be pursued like the Better Business Bureau and the state's attorney's office.


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## scooper

HeavyC - oh Yeah ? Let us know if you get socked with a large bill to get out of your contract...


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## scooper

Non -compete clauses are made to be broken - But this is something entirely different.


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## HeavyC

Believe what you want.


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## Jarrett76

I agree with HeavyC. When I had my system installed the installer who I know was quite candid about people not being satisfied ending their contract early and nothing could be done to collect. If dish was to lose the channels and not replace them, or give a credit the contract could be void. The AT50 would be bare without these channels.


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## HeavyC

That's all I'm saying. The Service Agreement is far from a binding iron clad contract. There's very little they can legally bind you into doing. It's just that that most people take it at face value. I'm not a lawyer or anything, but I had to study contract law briefly in college, and there are a lot of ways out of supposed contracts.


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## Mainstreet

Jarrett76 said:


> I agree with HeavyC. When I had my system installed the installer who I know was quite candid about people not being satisfied ending their contract early and nothing could be done to collect. If dish was to lose the channels and not replace them, or give a credit the contract could be void. The AT50 would be bare without these channels.


Not necessarily. DISH has a problem collecting cancellation fees and contract penalties from deadbeat customers. Those are the ones who get shut off for non-pay during the first 12 months (99.5% of *our* disconnect customers are non-pay, not voluntary). The reason DISH can't collect is that they are either maxed out on their credit card, used a debit card that doesn't have funds in the account, have bad credit so they don't care about - and are used to dodging - bill collectors and collection agencies, and/or customer can't be found.

Voluntary disconnects have a much higher collection ratio.

You may get out of paying the cancellation penalties, but it will still end up as a collection item if not paid. It all depends on what your credit looks like now as to whether it would be worth not paying.


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## HeavyC

I'm not saying, just quit and refuse to pay. I'm saying that I believe you'll be able to get Dish to let you out of your contract thereby elminating any fees whatsoever.


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## Mainstreet

HeavyC said:


> I'm not saying, just quit and refuse to pay. I'm saying that I believe you'll be able to get Dish to let you out of your contract thereby elminating any fees whatsoever.


I certainly hope it doesn't come to that. If it does, I know many independent retailers who will be forced out of business because of chargebacks. Even if DISH lets a customer out of their contract (even in the event of death), DISH still takes back most or all installation, activation, and equipment reimbursement payments from the retailer. As expensive as DISH's equipment is, it would be very easy to get an $800 chargeback per customer from this shenanigan. :eek2:

I have faith that it will all get worked out. Surely you guys can live without these channels for a couple days. That's all I believe it would take for Viacom to get the point.

I know you don't give a rat's *** about harm caused to a retailer from you actions, but remember that there is always another side.

Back to the contract issue, why even have a contract if no one intends to abide by what they signed and agreed to?


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## Nick

HeavyC said:


> Look, you can put anything you want in a contract, but that doesn't make it legally binding.


That's brilliant! You have just undermined the foundation of all U.S. contract law.

A legal contract is binding upon all parties to the contract, with few execptions, such as majority, capacity, fraud or terms in conflict with applicible laws. The adjudication of such exceptions is in a court of competent jurisdiction. Or, parties to the contract can mutually agree to a modification of terms. Beyond that, you're pretty much screwed.

Obviously, you've never bought and financed a second-hand car with a used car dealer then tried to take it back to cancel the deal.

Always read and understand any document before you sign it.

/Nick


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## HeavyC

Thanks for telling me stuff I already knew. Wow, that helped.

All I'm saying is that I think Dish could be treading in dangerous territory here if they jerk their customers around. I'd be very surprised if there were not some legal ways out of the agreement. That's all.


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## juan ellitinez

HeavyC said:


> Thanks for telling me stuff I already knew. Wow, that helped.
> 
> All I'm saying is that I think Dish could be treading in dangerous territory here if they jerk their customers around. I'd be very surprised if there were not some legal ways out of the agreement. That's all.


 I dont think that its Dish doing the jerking around
:nono2: :nono2: why dont you post your thought on the situation over here!!! http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mb?s=VIAb


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## JohnGfun

Don't you people see what Dish is doing to you? We have the right as customers to decide this! We are the customers, Me, You, Everyone in this Forum Are customers! DO YOU HEAR ME! WE HAVE THE RIGHT AS CUSTOMERS! Dish is trying to speak for us! I MEAN COME ON! THIS CRAZY!


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## retiredTech

IMHO
Viacom (especially of the last year)has mostly "junk" programing. VERY LITTLE NEW content and certainly NOT unreplace-able. 
If Viacom dried up and blew away I would NOT shed a tear.


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## Guest

I was just watching MTV on Dish and a scroll bar came across in white letters saying "Attention Echostar/Dish Network Subscribers: Dish Network has threatened to take..." and then apparently Dish Network blacked out the bottom of the screen where the rest of the message was. It's WAR!!!


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## JohnGfun

jericho29 said:


> I was just watching MTV on Dish and a scroll bar came across in white letters saying "Attention Echostar/Dish Network Subscribers: Dish Network has threatened to take..." and then apparently Dish Network blacked out the bottom of the screen where the rest of the message was. It's WAR!!!


Where ya been? :grin:


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## Richard King

> We have the right as customers to decide this!


I never realized that Echostar Communications, Inc. was a democracy. When did this happen? Charlie has to tread a fine line between what is good for his customers and what is good for his shareholders. In this situation if he gets a lower price for the (mostly) crap that Viacom distributes he is doing what is best for both customers and shareholders. As for rights of customers, until you buy more than 50% of the voting shares out there the only right you have is to voice your opinion or change services.


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## Nick

JohnGfun said:


> Don't you people see what Dish is doing to you? We have the right as customers to decide this! We are the customers, Me, You, Everyone in this Forum Are customers! DO YOU HEAR ME! WE HAVE THE RIGHT AS CUSTOMERS! Dish is trying to speak for us! I MEAN COME ON! THIS CRAZY!


We have the RIGHT to do what?

_"Don't you people see what Dish is doing to you?"_

Yes, I DO see what Dish is doing - providing me with the programming I want to watch.

_"We have the right as customers to decide this!"_

The contract under negotiation is between E* and Viacon. WE are not a party to that contract. We have no "rights", as you say.

_"Dish is trying to speak for us! I MEAN COME ON! THIS CRAZY!"_

There is no "us" in these negotiations, except that E* is trying to hold the line on rate increases, which, if successful, will benefit "us" customers.

May I suggest you carefully adjust your aluminum hat and chill before you have a stroke.


----------



## Mark Holtz

I'd bet that the cable providers are extremely thrilled with having "crawl" messages over something that doesn't affect then, and may actually constitute as free advertising.

So, please, tell me what you would be missing if the Viacom channels went off the air. For me, it would be only one program, _Heat Guy J_ on MTV2, but that series is being released on DVD, and will probably be repeated several times. _Battlebots_ is gone no thanks to Comedy Clueless. Many of us "spiked" TNN because of the black bar on the bottom of the screen. Just how much programming on those 20 Viacom channels are considered "fresh" programming?

Lets face it folks. We're pawns in this power struggle, and no matter what agreement is hammered out, the customer loses. It's bad enough that we all have to swollow ESPN as part of ANY programming package as $2+ per subscriber, and they're part of Darth Maus, not Viacom. How about the fact that Comcast is using loopholes to prevent the DBS providers from carrying their sports channels... period?

So, where do you draw the line? You can tell from my signature what channels I would like to see. Sure, I'm DirecTV now, but I was Dish before, and my decision to switch to DirecTV has absolutely NOTHING to do with the programming.


----------



## Richard King

Echostar, Viacom deadlocked but hope seen in dispute


> "Given EchoStar's relatively small market share, going dark on CBS would end up hurting EchoStar a lot more than it would hurt Viacom," said Moffett. "Charlie Ergen is a world-class poker player. He should know better than anyone when he's playing a losing hand."
> 
> "Ultimately, we believe both sides will 'blink,'" said Jessica Reif Cohen, analyst at Merrill Lynch in a research note.


Full story here: http://finance.lycos.com/qc/news/story.aspx?symbols=NASDAQ:DISH&story=200403060221_RTR_N05472956


----------



## JohnGfun

Nick said:


> We have the RIGHT to do what?
> 
> _"Don't you people see what Dish is doing to you?"_
> 
> Yes, I DO see what Dish is doing - providing me with the programming I want to watch.
> 
> _"We have the right as customers to decide this!"_
> 
> The contract under negotiation is between E* and Viacon. WE are not a party to that contract. We have no "rights", as you say.
> 
> _"Dish is trying to speak for us! I MEAN COME ON! THIS CRAZY!"_
> 
> There is no "us" in these negotiations, except that E* is trying to hold the line on rate increases, which, if successful, will benefit "us" customers.
> 
> May I suggest you carefully adjust your aluminum hat and chill before you have a stroke.


FINE THEN! "WE'RE" ALL SCREWED! HOW IS THAT!


----------



## JohnGfun

JohnGfun said:


> FINE THEN! "WE'RE" ALL SCREWED! HOW IS THAT!


WHAT? NO ONE WANT TO COMMENT TO BEING SCREWED! 

DIDN'T THINK SO!


----------



## Nick

Well, you may be SCREWED, but I am certainly not. The only Viacon I ever watched was Comedy, and that was very seldom. I prefer to go to HBO Comedy for my comedy. I dig Dennis Miller re-runs from the mid-90s.

Do what you have to do, John, but just because you like to type in caps, don't expect everyone here to jump on your bandwagon.

Sorry.


----------



## reddice

We will be switching to Directv on Tuesday not mainly because of the dispute because we keep getting Error's and the sw64 crap swtiches keep breaking and will not pay $370 to upgrade to something that won't break in a month when it rains.


----------



## latlog

jericho29 said:


> I was just watching MTV on Dish and a scroll bar came across in white letters saying "Attention Echostar/Dish Network Subscribers: Dish Network has threatened to take..." and then apparently Dish Network blacked out the bottom of the screen where the rest of the message was. It's WAR!!!


I'm not a heavy duty dish net viewer but when I saw the message get blacked out I figured something was up and found this site. Thanks for the info. Looks like someone hit a nerve.


----------



## JohnGfun

Nick said:


> Well, you may be SCREWED, but I am certainly not. The only Viacon I ever watched was Comedy, and that was very seldom. I prefer to go to HBO Comedy for my comedy. I dig Dennis Miller re-runs from the mid-90s.
> 
> Do what you have to do, John, but just because you like to type in caps, don't expect everyone here to jump on your bandwagon.
> 
> Sorry.


Sorry, this has gotten me really upset. basicly all i watch is Viacom Channels.


----------



## compdude68

Well here is what I have started to see out of all of this.. Viacom must care a great deal that E* is not renewing because they started all these scrollers. I mean if they really didn't care if they lost the customer base then they would not go through all the trouble. E* should stick to their guns so that we do not keep getting stuck with rate increases everytime these networks try and increase their rates. I mean... if we got no commercials on these channels then I could see the huge cost... But we still get nailed with alot of commercials especially on channels like VH1 and MTV. As for the nick channels I still don't see why there has to be so many... but this is just my view of all of this. I will miss comedy central if it goes... but oh well and the star trek reruns on spike are starting to become old. 

On a side note i noticed that the frequency of these scollers has changed it seems to be about 17 min into each hour sometimes later. They started off at the first 10 min but now they seem to be changing that. E* is still managing to block the scrollers though.

-Compdude-


----------



## Guest

Mark Holtz said:


> I'd bet that the cable providers are extremely thrilled with having "crawl" messages over something that doesn't affect then, and may actually constitute as free advertising.


I'm not so sure. Cable TV runs ads of their own (I see them non-stop whenever I'm at someones house with cable) talking about Dish and how bad it is. (filled with all kinds of rediculous lies as well) These complaint crawlers on Viacom channels establish the same result for the cable companies as their own ads, and they don't even have to use ad time for it.

Also, whoever said that this will hurt Dish Network more than Viacom needs to think about the facts. Viacom is actually running crawlers over their programming, for something that isn't even promotional related. (Lord knows they run enough crawlers the way it is) If they didn't care, I don't think they would go to this length.


----------



## Jarrett76

Mainstreet said:


> I certainly hope it doesn't come to that. If it does, I know many independent retailers who will be forced out of business because of chargebacks. Even if DISH lets a customer out of their contract (even in the event of death), DISH still takes back most or all installation, activation, and equipment reimbursement payments from the retailer. As expensive as DISH's equipment is, it would be very easy to get an $800 chargeback per customer from this shenanigan. :eek2:
> 
> I have faith that it will all get worked out. Surely you guys can live without these channels for a couple days. That's all I believe it would take for Viacom to get the point.
> 
> I know you don't give a rat's *** about harm caused to a retailer from you actions, but remember that there is always another side.
> 
> Back to the contract issue, why even have a contract if no one intends to abide by what they signed and agreed to?


The installers should be complaining because they do have the most to lose. I can guarantee you people will not go without these channels when they are paying for them. The contract is ok if dish replaces the channels, or takes off a portions off the bill, but if they dont do that they are in trouble.


----------



## JohnGfun

Jarrett76 said:


> The installers should be complaining because they do have the most to lose. I can guarantee you people will not go without these channels when they are paying for them. The contract is ok if dish replaces the channels, or takes off a portions off the bill, but if they dont do that they are in trouble.


Thank you! A agree.


----------



## Jacob S

This is bad news for WWE fans. You will miss out on your monday night wrestling, while I will have to answer the complaints from customers of mine threatening to shut it off and telling me that they dont care about the contract, that I can sue them if I want, blah blah blah. This is going to HURT if they are off for too long. If Dish gets compensated for losses like I have seen mentioned before then the retailers hould also receive compensation for losses.

Even if Dish would stand more to lose than Viacom that does not mean that Viacom does not stand to lose a lot and would not give in first. More to lose in the short run or in the long run? Perhaps this could be an example set for those in the future that may decide to do the same thing.


----------



## Richard King

> Viacom is actually running crawlers over their programming, for something that isn't even promotional related.


Which goes to show what Viacom thinks of the value of their programming if they would send this message even to those who are totally uneffected. By the way, I agree with them about the "value" of their programming. The vast majority is pure crap.


----------



## JohnGfun

I haven't seen any more scrolling? Has anyone else?


----------



## compdude68

JohnGfun said:


> I haven't seen any more scrolling? Has anyone else?


just saw one on comedy central, they havn't seemed to have stoped yet. The timing of the messages seems to be changing though.

compdude68


----------



## Guest

Does Direct TV have these issues like Dish always seems to have? The issue of the threat of shutting off programming because of rate increases they don't want to pay? If not, then I'm curious why Direct TV isn't a lot more expensive than Dish.


----------



## Guest

Why doesn't Charlie just offer the Viacom stuff (and ESPN stuff for that matter) as an a-lacarte package by itself and reduce the price of the rest of the packages. Those that wanted to pay the inflated fees for Viacom and ESPN could do so, the rest of us would enjoy a rate decrease.


----------



## Guest

and this will stink if it happens. Have you never watched Chappelles Show on Comedy Central? That's one of the funniest and most innovative sketch comedies around. You also gotta love all the VH1 lists, as redundant as they may get. 
I'm going to stay in touch with this board and see what happens to you guys that have the brass pair to fight your service agreement. If it turns out do-able, I'll definitely end up leaving if this is a permanent deal.


----------



## Mike123abc

If the Viacom agreement is not in place by the time CC occurs I wonder if Charlie will be at the chat?

Even if Viacom channels are cut off, I doubt that it would be more than a couple days.

I predict that Viacom will stay on and nicktoons will be added, it will just be interesting to see if it is in AT60 or AT120. I doubt that E* could negotiate it to AT180.


----------



## newsub

JohnGfun said:


> Thank you! A agree.


So do I. In the contract it says as lon as echostar gives you sufficient notice. Well where is this sufficient notice? Just to wake up monday morning, turn on mtv, nick, comedy, bet, spike, vh1 or cmt and find it blacked out? I don't think that is sufficient notice and if you went to court and dish were asked where the sufficient notice was that was supposed to be sent to ALL customers and they couldn't come up with it dish would be in a heap of ****. And please do NOT tell me they gave us sufficient notice. Even the black bar that they could claim provided us sufficient notice, has been blacked out so they can't use that as sufficient notice.


----------



## Mark Holtz

Pepper said:


> Why doesn't Charlie just offer the Viacom stuff (and ESPN stuff for that matter) as an a-lacarte package by itself and reduce the price of the rest of the packages. Those that wanted to pay the inflated fees for Viacom and ESPN could do so, the rest of us would enjoy a rate decrease.


Because the program providers won't allow you to pick the channels a'la carte.

I saw the crawl during the recording of _Heat Guy J_ on MTV2.


----------



## hpman247

Pepper said:


> Why doesn't Charlie just offer the Viacom stuff (and ESPN stuff for that matter) as an a-lacarte package by itself and reduce the price of the rest of the packages. Those that wanted to pay the inflated fees for Viacom and ESPN could do so, the rest of us would enjoy a rate decrease.


Wow, who cares about Viacom channels, but getting rid of ESPN to a-la-carte, that would really p me off. ESPN is IMHO one of the best channels on tv.


----------



## junki

A couple things I can think of out of all this is the advertising that will not be seen by viewers. Like Spike TV and the WWE, and a Toy being advertised on Nick. And so on and what not. Think of all the money the people who advertise on those channels will loose because x number of viewers will not see those commericals.
This may be far fetched but,
Viacom and Dish are putting people out of work and in a small way even impact the market places.
In my opion its like people downloading of the net and not paying for it, Sh!t rolls down hill and others are effected.


----------



## James Long

jericho29 said:


> I was just watching MTV on Dish and a scroll bar came across in white letters saying "Attention Echostar/Dish Network Subscribers: Dish Network has threatened to take..." and then apparently Dish Network blacked out the bottom of the screen where the rest of the message was.


And therin lies the lie. The contract for carrying Viacom programs expired December 31st. E* got a court order allowing them to continue to carry the channels while negotiations were ongoing. On February 27th the judge gave E* a final 10 day extension (until Monday Night, Midnight Pacific Time - the judge is in California).

E* isn't threatening to remove them. E* is losing the legal permission to carry Viacom's channels and *VIACOM* is refusing to extend E* permission to carry the channels during the negotiations.

But that doesn't look good on a crawl. "_Attention Echostar/Dish Network Subscribers: Viacom will pull this and all other channels we own from the Dish Network service if Echostar refuses to accept our demands of higher prices and forced channel carriage and package placement that will lower Echostar's profitability or raise your Dish Network bill. DirecTV has already paid the extortion payment, but we will still destroy the viewability of our programs on DirecTV and cable. We will continue to damage our product until you are as sick of Viacom as possible, and the value of the channels sink to what Echostar/Dish Network is willing to pay._"

JL


----------



## junki

justalurker said:


> And therin lies the lie. The contract for carrying Viacom programs expired December 31st. E* got a court order allowing them to continue to carry the channels while negotiations were ongoing. On February 27th the judge gave E* a final 10 day extension (until Monday Night, Midnight Pacific Time - the judge is in California).
> 
> E* isn't threatening to remove them. E* is losing the legal permission to carry Viacom's channels and *VIACOM* is refusing to extend E* permission to carry the channels during the negotiations.
> 
> But that doesn't look good on a crawl. "_Attention Echostar/Dish Network Subscribers: Viacom will pull this and all other channels we own from the Dish Network service if Echostar refuses to accept our demands of higher prices and forced channel carriage and package placement that will lower Echostar's profitability or raise your Dish Network bill. DirecTV has already paid the extortion payment, but we will still destroy the viewability of our programs on DirecTV and cable. We will continue to damage our product until you are as sick of Viacom as possible, and the value of the channels sink to what Echostar/Dish Network is willing to pay._"
> 
> JL


justalurker is that what the crawler really says? I have not seen it.


----------



## James Long

newsub said:


> Well where is this sufficient notice? Just to wake up monday morning, turn on mtv, nick, comedy, bet, spike, vh1 or cmt and find it blacked out?


Notice was given in the December and January Charlie Chats. Plus the Viacom channels WILL BE THERE Monday morning ... it is Tuesday Morning that is up to Viacom. If Viacom doesn't allow E* to continue to carry the channels, they be gone.

JL


----------



## PACOP

Directv and Cable Laughing And Dish Will Lose 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of you who think charlie is right need to stop smoking crack and wake up. it may sound good in theory but in the real world its suicide. without viacoms major channels, dish will not be able to compete with other providers and will go bankrupt when the majority goes to dtv or cable. we are not talking 1, 2 or 3 channels we are talking about 15-20-25 major channels which by the way are very important to many subscribers. look at echostars stock on friday, it dropped almost 1.50 per share. just wait and see what it does on tuesday when the viacoms get pulled. can you say plummett. yes many of you don't care for these channels but many of us do. even if dish loses 25 - 50% of its viewers it will be a major impact and guess who will then have to pickup the tab and pay the increased rates... yes it will be you who are left to make up the difference. the principle is there but the end result will be suicide. so when your paying more money for a lot less channels you can say to yourself , " well, at least charlie did the right thing". think about it.


----------



## Guest

PACOP said:


> Directv and Cable Laughing And Dish Will Lose
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> All of you who think charlie is right need to stop smoking crack and wake up. it may sound good in theory but in the real world its suicide. without viacoms major channels, dish will not be able to compete with other providers and will go bankrupt when the majority goes to dtv or cable. we are not talking 1, 2 or 3 channels we are talking about 15-20-25 major channels which by the way are very important to many subscribers. look at echostars stock on friday, it dropped almost 1.50 per share. just wait and see what it does on tuesday when the viacoms get pulled. can you say plummett. yes many of you don't care for these channels but many of us do. even if dish loses 25 - 50% of its viewers it will be a major impact and guess who will then have to pickup the tab and pay the increased rates... yes it will be you who are left to make up the difference. the principle is there but the end result will be suicide. so when your paying more money for a lot less channels you can say to yourself , " well, at least charlie did the right thing". think about it.


So you think Charlie should just lay down and let viacom rape him? This is not a pretty situation but its not Charlie who is making it that way. Satellite Dish TV is still an underdog and that means networks may try to take advatange of it. If you just want to pay someone what they offer (even if its 10 times more than they offer it to someone else) so be it, but you will always be on the bottom with that kind of management. Charlie is not dumb enough to leave Viacom off forever, and he knows Viacom can't lose 8 million viewers and get away with it either. So its just going to be a showdown of who can hold out longer, Viacom with discounted ads every hour they are off Dish, or Dish with viewers and sales outlets more upset every hour Viacom is off. Either way, I applaud Charlie for taking a stand on our rates. If its true that Direct TV has paid the inflated rates, then I wouldn't want to be their customer when their rates have to go up even more.


----------



## James Long

junki said:


> justalurker is that what the crawler really says? I have not seen it.


I've only seen part of the text once ... and a few blacked channels while searching for it. They had the top and bottom of BET blacked a few minutes ago.

Perhaps someone who Tivo'd it or caught it missed by the black box could give a transcript?

This just in (as best as I can remember) ...
Attenion ECHOSTAR/DISH NETWORK subscribers: DISH NETWORK has threatened to take away the following channels from DISH NETWORK suubscribers: ...​And then the E* tech blacked out the banner ...

Yeah, Viacom is lying. "Viacom is refusing to give permission for DISH NETWORK viewers to see their content" would be more accurate.

JL


----------



## newsub

justalurker said:


> Notice was given in the December and January Charlie Chats. Plus the Viacom channels WILL BE THERE Monday morning ... it is Tuesday Morning that is up to Viacom. If Viacom doesn't allow E* to continue to carry the channels, they be gone.
> 
> JL


I don't think MOST of the subscribers watch the charlie chats. Unless Echostar puts a message on each viacom station tomorrow or monday telling people of the possible shutoff of those stations or telling their subscribers to tune to a predefined channel (105 or 106 maybe) to see information on the possible shutdown I doubt they stand a chance in court if someone would sue on the condition of the line I described in my post. The fact is I know at least cable companies are required to give 30 days notice at least before any changes to the channel offerings or lineups occur. They usually do this via bills, legal notices in the papers, and even sending out fliers in the mail. As far as I know echostar HAS NOT done this. Now whether or not echostar is bound by the same 30 day notice law or not remains to be seen. But I'm sure if a subscriber were to take his contract to a lawyer and point out that line and say echostar did not provide sufficient notice as to the shutdown of the stations then a class action lawsuit could be brought forth against echostar. Heck you might even be able to get the government involved with the federal attorney general and the state attorney generals.


----------



## James Long

newsub said:


> Unless Echostar puts a message on each viacom station tomorrow or monday telling people of the possible shutoff of those stations or telling their subscribers to tune to a predefined channel (105 or 106 maybe) to see information on the possible shutdown I doubt they stand a chance in court ...


So you file your suit at first light on Tuesday?

And 105 and 106? 105 is USA Network ... no need to bump them off of the air for Viacom ... 106 is TVLand -- the moment the feed is dropped you'll see Charlie there. Just as he mentioned in the Charlie Chats.

Threaten all you want. Bashing E* won't solve the problem.

JL


----------



## PACOP

jericho29 said:


> If you just want to pay someone what they offer (even if its 10 times more than they offer it to someone else) so be it, but you will always be on the bottom with that kind of management.


the point is as in the recent forbes article, viacom is offering dish the same deal as dtv and cable. so why is dish insistant that its to much a rate increase when viacom is being fair all across the board. they want a 5% rate hike which is what they settled on with dtv and cable. have you thought maybe charlie is being too unreasonable?


----------



## Mark Holtz

The crawl, as it ran on _Heat Guy J_ on MTV reads:

Attention Echostar/Dish Network subscribers. You may soon LOSE the following channels: BET Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, MTV, VH1, Nick at Nite, and many more channels from Nickelodeon and MTV. Call 1-800-DISH NOW and tell Dish Network that you want to keep the channels you paid for!


----------



## James Long

Mark Holtz said:


> The banner, as it ran on _Heat Guy J_ reads:
> 
> Attention Echostar/Dish Network subscribers. You may soon LOSE the following channels: BET Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, MTV, VH1, Nick at Nite, and many more channels from Nickelodeon and MTV. Call 1-800-DISH NOW and tell Dish Network that you want to keep the channels you paid for!


Quite different than the partial I caught a few minutes ago. Viacom should run the banner you saw ... it is more honest.

(Although calling E* won't help. E* wants the same thing, to keep the channels their subs are paying for. Viacom has to give them the permission to continue, unless a new judge gives E* another court order. Possibly based on call volumes demonstrating E*'s point that losing the channels would hurt their business, combined with proof that Viacom intends E* harm demonstrated by the flooding of E*'s CS centers with phone calls.)

JL


----------



## Mark Holtz

Well, at 10:46 PM PT on TV Land, the following crawled across my screen:

Attention ECHOSTAR/DISH NETWORK SUBSCRIBERS: DISH NETWORK has threatened to take away the following channels from DISH NETWORK subscribers: BET, Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, MTV, VH1, Nick at Nite, and many more channels from Nickelodeon and MTV. DISH NETWORK SUBSCRIBERS Call 1-800-333-DISH now and tell DISH NETWORK that you want to keep the the channels you paid for!


----------



## nicepants

Viacom is (rightfully so) worried about losing E*s viewership. [I say 'losing' but it's obviously their choice....with as many commercials as they run every hour it's tough to believe they're not making enough money] They obviously know that they're in a tough spot or they wouldn't be showing those crawls. I think it's great that Dish is blocking them. I just wonder what'll happen if Viacom decides to create spots to run during the breaks that explain what they're trying to say in the crawls. Could get ugly :nono2: ...I'm looking forward to the Charlie Chat.


----------



## Agent0042

Somebody help me, I am confused about the cut-off time. Is it midnight, 21 hours from now, or midnight 45 hours from now?


----------



## Mark Holtz

11:59:59 PM Pacific Time Monday night... about five hours after the conclusion of the Charlie Chat.


----------



## Agent0042

Thanks! So Monday's shows are safe, which is very, very good for me. (_breathes sigh of relief_)


----------



## Mark Holtz

Hot off the wires... an interview with Charlie in the Denver Post with a significant portion covering the current CBS/Viacom dispute. This was from a luncheon.


----------



## Cotter Pin

I feel bad for CBS customers who would lose the network, but otherwise I say good riddance. Viacom is all crap anyway, and there are are much better uses for the bandwidth. I don't need 200 channels of drivel. 50 channels of quality would suit me just fine.


----------



## newsub

Cotter Pin said:


> I feel bad for CBS customers who would lose the network, but otherwise I say good riddance. Viacom is all crap anyway, and there are are much better uses for the bandwidth. I don't need 200 channels of drivel. 50 channels of quality would suit me just fine.


Ok I'll try this a 2nd time. If these channels go black monday night I better see the mtv/vh1 suite channels (and all of them) show up when the new contract is signed. I like those channels cause they're offered on my cable system.


----------



## jasonjpw

$15 - Viacom Crap Pack
MTV
MTV HITS
MTV 2
VH1
VH1 Classic
VH1 Soul
VH1 Country
NICKE
NICKW
TV LAND
SPIKE TV
CMT
BET
Comedy Central
Nick GAS
NOGGIN/THE N
Nick Toons
Sundance Channel
TMC WEST
TMC XTRA WEST
FLIX

$20 - Ammericas Top 60
$30 - Americas Top 120
$40 - Americas Top 180
or
$25 - Americas Top 60 + Locals
$35 - Americas Top 120 + Locals
$45 - Americas Top 180 + Locals
or
$28 - Americas Top 60 + Viacom
$38 - Americas Top 120 + Viacom
$48 - Americas Top 180 + Viacom
or
$33 - Americas Top 60 + Viacom + Locals
$43 - Americas Top 120 + Viacom + Locals
$53 - Americas Top 180 + Viacom + Locals

What do you think?

We should do this with every major provider
Viacom and Turner


----------



## FTA Michael

From the excellent Denver Post interview that Mark linked to (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1999715,00.html):

"ERGEN: There is no way our company is going to rebroadcast a CBS station if the deadline expires and we don't have, in writing, an extension from them - because we know they'll sue us. They've already done so.

"It's up to CBS whether they want our customers to watch their signal. We've offered to pay the most we've paid anybody for a retransmission consent in our country for CBS. So we're not asking for it for free. But our customers are not asking for 10 or 11 or 12 channels they don't want to watch."

(I highly recommend that everyone here read the full interview, which covers a broad range of recent E* topics. Nuff said.)

I side with Charlie on this one not because he's trying to hold the line on prices (which only helps me as a shareholder), but because he's fighting the longstanding, ugly practice of tying new cable channels to OTA retransmission agreements. This is how the Fx Network got on a huge percentage of systems almost instantly -- Fox gave away local OTA Fox retransmission if carriers would add Fx. I think this practice stinks, and I figure Charlie's bringing the issue to a head to get some resolution.


----------



## greylar

carload said:


> From the excellent Denver Post interview that Mark linked to (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1999715,00.html):


I side with Charlie on this as well. And I agree with the above posts, the viacom package is mostly crap. There are a couple channels I will miss but not bad enough to pay for the rest.

Maybe we will get lucky and Dish will drop our rates when Viacom is gone. Although I really don't think those channels will be gone for long if at all.

G


----------



## Phil T

Article from todays Denver Post - Ergan waiting out Viacom:

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1999715,00.html


----------



## catman

Let dish play it's mind games . Come over to directv . We have nicktoons . We carry nike-at nite . For $67 you can have HBO , Starz , Directv the guide . The only thing you lose is GAC . Compare channels today .


----------



## Bobby94928

Agent0042 said:


> Somebody help me, I am confused about the cut-off time. Is it midnight, 21 hours from now, or midnight 45 hours from now?


It is Monday Night at Midnight, Pacific Time, that's 3 o'clock Tuesday morning for you East coasters.


----------



## rvd420

I think there will be a deal signed tomorrow (monday) and that Charlie will spout his $#!t that he stood up to big bad Viacom at the Chaz Chat Monday night.


----------



## Darkman

all those deadlines.. 
and always at the end... last minute, etc - they always manage to figure something out and make a deal, or postpone the deadline...


----------



## JohnGfun

Darkman said:


> all those deadlines..
> and always at the end... last minute, etc - they always manage to figure something out and make a deal, or postpone the deadline...


 I Hope!


----------



## Chris

I don't mean to sound like a 'n00b' but I want to clarify that D* is DirecTV and E* is Echostar which is Dish Network, right?


----------



## junki

I finally saw the crawl. What a crock from both sides. Viacom for putting it on there and dish for putting the black bar.


----------



## Mike Richardson

Here's pictures of the scroll which people might miss due to the administrator's mad post locking sprees.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=207213&postcount=64

By the way, the links that the admins have been posting in a bunch of the locked Viacom topics, don't work. You click the link and it says no thread found.

Whatever the master thread is the topic should be changed to "THIS IS THE MASTER VIACOM THREAD" or something like that.


----------



## Darkman

Chris said:


> I don't mean to sound like a 'n00b' but I want to clarify that D* is DirecTV and E* is Echostar which is Dish Network, right?


That's correct!

And, by the way ------> Welcome to DBSTalk!


----------



## scooper

I wouldn't be too surprised if the Charlie Chat gets postponed over this...


----------



## rvd420

scooper said:


> I wouldn't be too surprised if the Charlie Chat gets postponed over this...


Ya think Chaz would run and hide instead of addressing is customers and let them know what is the situation with Viacom.


----------



## MrPete

Mike Richardson said:


> Here's pictures of the scroll which people might miss due to the administrator's mad post locking sprees.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=207213&postcount=64


More proof that most of the viacom channels are junk, look at the program that was being recorded!!! :hurah: :nono2: :lol: :rotfl:

It looks like I'm gonna lose my local CBS channel (Chicago) :flaiming
The only other channel I'm really gonna miss is Comedy Channel.


----------



## Mark Holtz

Mike Richardson said:


> Here's pictures of the scroll which people might miss due to the administrator's mad post locking sprees.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=207213&postcount=64
> 
> By the way, the links that the admins have been posting in a bunch of the locked Viacom topics, don't work. You click the link and it says no thread found.
> 
> Whatever the master thread is the topic should be changed to "THIS IS THE MASTER VIACOM THREAD" or something like that.


_The buck stops here. The reason why the link to the master thread got broken (which is this thread) was that I was moving a post to this thread, and the thread ID # got changed. This fault is mine--*period*. Now, I have to go into two dozen threads and fix the links. 

We are simply consolidating the threads into one big master thread which is a "sticky" thread and is right smack at the top of the Dish forum. I can understand how upset people are about this one upmanship by Viacom running the crawls that appear to everyone who is viewing the channel even though they are NOT Dish Network subscribers and Dish Network putting up a black bar to cover the crawl. This is leading up to a possible Monday night/Tuesday morning cut-off date. We just don't need two-dozen threads talking about the same thing when one will do. The duplicate threads are simply locked, but you can still access them.

Thank you for your understanding. - *Holtz*_


----------



## NeedWB/UPN

This really sucks. I got Dish because I live in BFE South Dakota and cant get cable. I got Americas Top 150 because it had MTV and Comedy Central along with the extra History channels. My husband is a huge Comedy Central viwer because of The Chappelle Show, Crank Yankers and South Park

I also added the UPN/WB package. Most of all the shows I watch are on these two channels. I receive the UPN channel from Denver and the WB from LA and NYC I believe. I just know I have 3 WBs and 2 UPN channels. If I lose these I will be pissed off as I went out and paid extra to have these. Was main reason why I got Dish as they could give me these channels and DirectTv can not.

This just sucks

*And yes Mark Hotlz.. Angel should *NOT* be cancelled. Tues. already is not the same without Buffy  My Whedonverse is coming to an end


----------



## Mark Holtz

More from the spin cycle... from http://www.wfor.com/dishnet :

Actions taken by EchoStar's Dish Network May result in WFOR's signal being removed from your Dish Network service.

CBS and WFOR *deeply regret* any inconvenience to our viewers. We are continuing to try to negotiate a resolution to this *completely unnecessary development*, and in the meantime, we remind our viewers that *our signal remains available over the air*, as well as from *DirecTV* and your *local cable operator*.

This action may also affect other Viacom channels on Dish Network, such as Nickelodeon and Comedy Central.

CALL DISH NETWORK NOW AT *1 800 333 DISH*
AND TELL THEM YOU WANT TO KEEP THE CHANNELS YOU PAID FOR.

We will continue to advise you of developments in broadcast announcements and on this page.

Thsnk you for your understanding.


----------



## scooper

Mark - Thank you for standing up and taking the responsibility on the broken links, as well as the efforts to get them repaired. I fully support the efforts of the admins and moderators to keep the discussion of this in one place (they shouldn't have to do it, but people just DON'T look before they post...).


----------



## Greg Bimson

rvd420 said:


> I think there will be a deal signed tomorrow (monday) and that Charlie will spout his $#!t that he stood up to big bad Viacom at the Chaz Chat Monday night.


And then we don't find out about the terms of the contract when it is worked out, so we actually don't know who caved in...


----------



## BarryO

junki said:


> I finally saw the crawl. What a crock from both sides. Viacom for putting it on there and dish for putting the black bar.


Yea, saw it on TV Land last night. 'completely pointless; Viacom must have known that E* would block it. Other than annoying people, I don't see the point (maybe that is the point).

The rest of you may think the Viacom channels are crap, but TV Land is one of our most-watched, at least before 10 p.m. when the kids are still watching. It's kid-safe, unlike the network sitcoms. The last time I saw a network sitcom, two characters started explicitly describing which body parts were involved in sexual intercourse. My 8-year old was in the room; hey, it was 8:30 p.m., when "indecent" material isn't supposed to be broadcast.

That was the last time we watched a sticom on ABC, CBS, or NBC.


----------



## Mark Holtz

So far, I've come up with the following count:

9 at AT60 (Nick is counted at two channels)
2 at AT120
4 at AT180 (The two TMC West Channels)
4 at Showtime (The two TMC East, Flix, and Sundance)

Looks like 19 to me.

(updated.... I forgot Nick GAS)


----------



## tnsprin

I am trying to look at the FCC and SHVIA requirements that apply to the Viacom/Echostar dispute. I am not sure that they allow the bundling of the requirement to carry other cable stations with the carriage of the CBS local in local stations.

Anyone know what rules apply.


----------



## Richard King

Are TMC, Flix and Sundance included in the discussions? I would think that they, being premium movie channels, would have their own contracts.


----------



## James Long

From the Denver Post Article:


> Q: So, will we soon see Viacom's CBS, MTV, VH1, Nickelodeon and other channels go dark on Dish Network?
> 
> ERGEN: There is no way our company is going to rebroadcast a CBS station if the deadline expires and we don't have, in writing, an extension from them - because we know they'll sue us. They've already done so.


Note the question was about ALL Viacom channels (some by name) and the answer was about just the CBS channels.

So no Charlie answer as to what E* will do about the nationwide channels ...

Also note that the channel E* prepared in late December is for the CBS broadcast channels - not the "cable" networks. (Attached - with phone number removed to avoid harrassing E*. This card doesn't mean that there won't be a separate channel, but it does show that the early preparations were for the LIL channels.)

JL


----------



## James Long

tnsprin said:


> I am trying to look at the FCC and SHVIA requirements that apply to the Viacom/Echostar dispute. I am not sure that they allow the bundling of the requirement to carry other cable stations with the carriage of the CBS local in local stations.
> 
> Anyone know what rules apply.


There really isn't anything that applies directly in the FCC rules or SHVIA preventing Vicom's actions in regard to LIL carriage. If a station has elected "Consent to Carry" they can *ask* for any compensation they like in the contract. (Ask does not mean receive.) Anti-trust laws may come into play since Viacom is operating as a monopoly when they tie their cable channels to locals.

SHVIA does allow E* to carry any network station as a distant WITHOUT the permission of the broadcaster. It only alllows carriage outside of the Grade B of all affiliates, so for those who live in a Viacom CBS market E* could substitute any other CBS of their choosing if that customer would normally qualify for distants. For non-CBS Viacom stations people MAY wake up Tuesday morning with a SuperStation feed replacing their local.

As far as the other Viacom channels, we will probably see them continue (unless Viacom's contract says they can't). I've seen a few long term contracts that *unless cancelled* grant rights beyond the expiration date. Charlie may have that ace up his sleeve to keep the cable channels up and running.



Richard King said:


> Are TMC, Flix and Sundance included in the discussions? I would think that they, being premium movie channels, would have their own contracts.


IIRC: Showtime is separate. See the first post in this thread for the complete list of what a then E* insider (Tasy) listed as affected.

JL


----------



## SParker

I thought SpikeTV was on a seperate contract that expires in 05?


----------



## Guest

I think they should sign the deal, it will be completely stupid if Charlie doesnt cause know why, CBS is an important channel to have on there and without CBS, and all those other channels people will be completely mad and will which to directv or cable and so they will lose money from that, and as a result from that they will go bankrupt.


----------



## James Long

Joseph808 said:


> I think they should sign the deal, it will be completely stupid if Charlie doesnt cause know why, CBS is an important channel to have on there and without CBS, and all those other channels people will be completely mad and will which to directv or cable and so they will lose money from that, and as a result from that they will go bankrupt.


As far as I'm concerned, CBS is "Compressed [animal droppings]". I can't remember the last time I watched CBS (other than for Superbowl commercials).

CBS is one, at most three channels for E* subscribers (plus HD, if qualified). I'm in an area where CBS is ZERO channels on E* ... all OTA. The other hundreds of channels can easily attract my attention. :lol:

JL


----------



## garypen

Mark Holtz said:


> CALL DISH NETWORK NOW AT *1 800 333 DISH*
> AND TELL THEM YOU WANT TO KEEP THE CHANNELS YOU PAID FOR.


 ...and the ones we're trying to ram down your throat which you'll be forced to pay for, whether you want them or not. (They forgot that last part.)


----------



## James Long

The worst part of the message is that the alleged target customer rarely sees it. So the most likely person to make the call is a non-Dish subscriber. The newest version of the message TRIES to focus on DishNetwork - but people seeing the original version could easily be confused into thinking that THEIR access to the signal. (We even had one thread here because of this confusion.)

The unwashed masses don't look at the message and say "what does Dish Network have to do with my viewing this channel on D*/cable." They know that companies own each other and could be convinced that E* can interfere with other providers.

Just because WE know better doesn't mean that the unwashed masses know better.

JL


----------



## Jacob S

I am surprised that they scrolled these messages for all providers of their channels. I hope Viacom gets some complaints about that from those that do not have Dish. 

They are changing the timing of the messages so that Dish may not catch it in time to cover it up. If they wanted to do it better they should put it on half the screen all at once for about 5 seconds at a time, at different times.


----------



## alfbinet

Richard King said:


> I never realized that Echostar Communications, Inc. was a democracy. When did this happen? Charlie has to tread a fine line between what is good for his customers and what is good for his shareholders. In this situation if he gets a lower price for the (mostly) crap that Viacom distributes he is doing what is best for both customers and shareholders. As for rights of customers, until you buy more than 50% of the voting shares out there the only right you have is to voice your opinion or change services.


Richard, I don't agree with you often, but with this you have my 100% agreement.


----------



## Jacob S

I do not think the Charlie Chat would get cancelled, as that would be the first time, and it would be obvious as to why it would be cancelled if it would be.

If Dish gives in to Viacom then the other program providers will do the same as Viacom did to get their increases because they will think that it will work to get more money.


----------



## PACOP

Charlie Lied : Read The Latest

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EXCERPT:
Speaking at a conference in Washington, DC, EchoStar CEO Charlie Ergen described Viacom's position as "extortion at the highest level." Ergen claimed that Viacom was asking for a 40% hike in its rates, but Viacom officials insisted that the rate increase being sought was only 7%, a rate acknowledged by EchoStar attorneys in San Francisco courtroom proceedings. People close to the negotiations now say that Viacom has reduced its demanded fee increase to 5% annually.

HIS OWN LAWYERS EVEN CONFIRMED THE RATE INCREASE REQUEST WAS 7%. NOW VIACOM HAS DROPPED IT TO 5%. SOUNDS LIKE VIACOM IS TRYING TO WORK WITH CHARLIE BUT HE IS BEING DIFFICULT. CAUGHT IN A LIE AND YOU PEOPLE STILL TAKE HIS SIDE AND BELIVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE. WAKE UP.
HERES THE LINK:http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/030804echostar


----------



## Jacob S

If Viacom was asking for extra channels to be added and wanting extra money for those in addition to a price increase to the ones currently offered then wouldnt the price increase be more than 5-7% or would that price increase include the new channels? Also if it is over a period of several years at 5-6% per year then it would be 40% total. Depends on how you look at it.

Also I think a lot of Dish subscribers would support Dish in its efforts until it come time for the next price increase (next year) in which they will have thought that the rates would have at least stayed the same, yet go up.


----------



## James Long

PACOP said:


> Charlie Lied : Read The Latest


Don't you have a bridge to crawl back under?

These last minute articles have been known to contain errors. One respected source even claimed Nick G.A.S. was the channel that Viacom was forcing, even though previous articles make it clear that NickToons and an extension of other channels (such as SpikeTV) that are not expired PLUS the bundling in of CBS broadcast channels were the dividing issues.

Some of these online newspapers are as inaccurate as usenet!

JL


----------



## PACOP

If You Read The Article It Seems Pretty Cut And Dry To Me. But Even If You Give Charlie The Benefit Of The Doubt The Contract Is Supposed To Be Good For 3 Yrs. So 5% Annually Would Be 15% For The Total 3 Years, Which Is Still No Where Near 40%.


----------



## James Long

Perhaps to you. But those with an IQ over 70 have learned to watch out for poor reporting. Post facts, not "so n so says it's true".

"I read it on the internet ... it must be true." -- Pity the fool.

JL


----------



## PACOP

justalurker said:


> Don't you have a bridge to crawl back under?
> 
> These last minute articles have been known to contain errors. One respected source even claimed Nick G.A.S. was the channel that Viacom was forcing, even though previous articles make it clear that NickToons and an extension of other channels (such as SpikeTV) that are not expired PLUS the bundling in of CBS broadcast channels were the dividing issues.
> 
> Some of these online newspapers are as inaccurate as usenet!
> 
> JL


can't you pull your head out of your *** long enough to accept something that may be true even if you don't like it. i do agree that not all the articles that are read are totally accurate but i think these news reports know more about whats going on than you do. if you do know more than the news media will you please fill the rest of us in on the negotiations. thanks.


----------



## FTA Michael

I'm guessing Charlie was lumping all requested Viacom increases, including the full cost of Nicktoons, and comparing that to the retransmission fee.

They've repeatedly said this isn't about the fees, it's about Viacom forcing Dish to renegotiate non-OTA channels in order to get retransmission approval for CBS O&& stations.

I've never heard a good reason why Dish would lose Nickelodeon because some CBS stations get dropped. I wonder whether Viacom has some contractual loophole to yank its networks in such circumstances, or whether they'll just do it to be mean.  Dish doesn't want to drop anybody, they just don't want to pay anybody.


----------



## James Long

Jacob S said:


> I do not think the Charlie Chat would get cancelled, as that would be the first time, and it would be obvious as to why it would be cancelled if it would be.


At this point, Charlie Chat MUST air. It is his last chance to set the spin in his direction, and explain the situation one-on-one with Echostar customers. He can clearly state E*'s side of the issue.

Charlie can also show more positives about E*. He can promote new channel markets and do whatever he can do to show that E* is STILL a company worth purchasing service from.

Without the Chat, he leaves coverage in the hands of the press and Viacom. Canceling the chat would be like not testifying in your own defense. Risky.

JL


----------



## James Long

PACOP said:


> i think these news reports know more about whats going on than you do.


Taking reports we have already read from other sources, condensing them, and adding unattributed numbers is not good reporting. Note that the article you quote is dated tommorrow and they don't bother mentioning the Tuesday 3am ET deadline. (Easier to say than Monday Midnight PT as it is more clear.)

It is a "cover" story ... read someone else's work and change enough words not to be plagerizing. Unfortunately the changes introduce errors and this story has unattributed 'facts'.

"Cover" stories are like the local high school rock band playing covers of Queen's hits. It may sound OK, but is is obviously off key and not the original.

JL


----------



## PACOP

ok, heres a forbes article which reports the same info. read this one then. i think we can all agree forbes is a legitimate accurate news source.
http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/2004/03/05/rtr1288924.html


----------



## Richard King

> The Contract Is Supposed To Be Good For 3 Yrs.


I thought I read somewhere, although I can't recall where, that the contract under negotiation was for 6 years, not three. Where did you read the three year figure. A 7% increase over 6 years is over 40% for the life of the contract.


----------



## PACOP

if i recall the article was last week in the wall street journal.


----------



## scooper

PACOP - why don't you just drop your Dish sub and move over to D* ?


----------



## PACOP

because dtv doesn't have locals yet or i would.


----------



## James Long

PACOP said:


> ok, heres a forbes article which reports the same info. read this one then. i think we can all agree forbes is a legitimate accurate news source.
> http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/2004/03/05/rtr1288924.html


So that's where they plagerized the numbers! And we've been over that report before. No need to attempt to start a new thread or post all caps rants over OLD NEWS. Every reitteration does not deserve a fireworks display.

JL
Celebrating post 800!


----------



## navvet

i agree with pacop. forbes is a very reputable newsource. it sounds accurate to me. some people could see the truth if they would only open their eyes and minds.


----------



## music_beans

Personally I don't care whether they are dropped or not. That is why I haven't posted here as much.

OT: Congrats on your 800th post JL!


----------



## james39

I can't believe how low both Viacom and Echostar have stooped on this one. Viacom is running crawlers across the screen and primarly the *ONLY* people who can see them are non dish-network subscribers (cable or dtv), therefore in a TV sense, performing a distributed denial of service attack on the dish network csr's, seeing as most viewers aren't going to know better and think *they* would be shortly losing access to such and such a channel. Echostar is blacking out these messages with bars on the screen, this would have to be the first time I've *ever* seen a provider edit the content it carries! Furthermore, isn't this sort of thing illegal? Dish could bloody well censor anything they don't agree with! I think they'd be served better suing viacom for the crawlers rather than blacking them out.


----------



## James Long

Thanks music_beans ... it all starts with one.

Speaking of which ... Welcome to the Forum navvet!


navvet said:


> i agree with pacop. forbes is a very reputable newsource. it sounds accurate to me. some people could see the truth if they would only open their eyes and minds.


Forbes is OK, but they are not the ones calling Charlie a liar. I hope that people realize that 8% per year for five years or 7% a year for six gives Charlie the 40% increase over a period of a few years that he spoke about.

GOOD journalism points out the facts. Bad journalism pushes an agenda.

JL


----------



## awax

james39 said:


> I can't believe how low both Viacom and Echostar have stooped on this one. Viacom is running crawlers across the screen and primarly the *ONLY* people who can see them are non dish-network subscribers (cable or dtv), therefore in a TV sense, performing a distributed denial of service attack on the dish network csr's, seeing as most viewers aren't going to know better and think *they* would be shortly losing access to such and such a channel. Echostar is blacking out these messages with bars on the screen, this would have to be the first time I've *ever* seen a provider edit the content it carries! Furthermore, isn't this sort of thing illegal? Dish could bloody well censor anything they don't agree with! I think they'd be served better suing viacom for the crawlers rather than blacking them out.


I think Viacom would have a case against E* for blocking out the crawlers whether they agree with what they say or not. They are altering Viacom broascasts, that is Viacom's right to send that over their channels. If Dish disagrees then at the next commercial break on said Viacom channels air some sort of announcement that states their case because they have the right to insert their own material durring breaks just like when they advertise PPVs.


----------



## music_beans

I just got off the phone with DISH to trade WSBK (Viacom owned, it may get shutoff anyway) in for KTLA, and I was put on hold for almost 10 minutes. 

I can just imagine Viacom throwing up a test pattern with the scroll text laid over it, and then DISH throwing up a technical difficulties slate.


----------



## FTA Michael

Just to clarify: That Forbes article is just a Reuters news service article. Just like when The New York Times runs an Associated Press article. That's why the Forbes article matches what's been seen elsewhere; if the source runs Reuters articles, then this is the article it ran.


----------



## Richard King

> If Dish disagrees then at the next commercial break on said Viacom channels air some sort of announcement that states their case


But, you are forgetting that Viacom is sending this to EVERYONE who subscribes to a Viacom channel, that would be EVERYONE with any cable system, Dish Network or DirecTv. Dish can't respond on those other services so they are responding where they can by blocking the crawls.


----------



## normang

This is all a pretty much *useless* discussion, in reality. we have little control, sure we can all vote with our feet and go somewhere else, however Viacom has resposibilities as well. Their advertisers aren't just going to sit there and let several million eyeballs disappear from seeing their ads. I would think they would tell Viacom something with ther ad rates or lack thereof, 

Its pretty sad actually, the increases they discuss are ridiculous and have no foundation in reality, the exceed the rate of inflation to exhorbitant levels. Many of the channels are merely re-broadcasting and looping the same shows over and over and contract for their content. The percentages are riduculous on the face of it IMHO....


----------



## retiredTech

awax said:


> I think Viacom would have a case against E* for blocking out the crawlers whether they agree with what they say or not.


My 2 cents:
I would guess Viacom doesn't have "legal" permission to use E*'s phone number in the "crawler" either.

I am enjoying Viacom's "silly games",
MUCH more than their programing.


----------



## James Long

music_beans said:


> I just got off the phone with DISH to trade WSBK (Viacom owned, it may get shutoff anyway) in for KTLA, and I was put on hold for almost 10 minutes.


WSBK is a superstation and can remain on satellite without Viacom's permission. E* could pull it (or any channel), but with their stance of "we want to keep the channels ON" it would not be a good idea.

E* needs to keep those messages away from E* customers, since they are untrue. Find one article where Charlie threatened to remove channels other than CBS. Remember, E*'s the one that went to court to keep the channels on.

JL


----------



## rbyers

I've looked at the list of channels we might lose and I'd be delighted to dump them all in return for perhaps slightly better PQ. I might even be willing to pay Dish a little more money if the PQ improves and these channels disappear. Viacom gets to charge advertisers for space on these channels in return for a quantity of viewers. If Viacom goes out of business, I won't lose any sleep. The Hollywood crowd is pretty much a bunch of highly overpaid jerks anyway.


----------



## Roger Tee

Well I just saw one of thos infamous crawls/black bars tonight.... Shows how much Viacom content I watch I guess. And of course what CBS content I watch is only watched on first runs, reruns get shunned, which means more than 1/2 of the season gets shunned. Those few I may want I'll just catch off the cable on my Tivo, WCBS picture sucks on cable, always has. I keep basic cable to go along with the Cable modem service.

I'd love to see all the non echostar Viacom watchers call Viacom and complain about what they're doing to the picture. Second thing I'd bet is that they aren't interrupting the important parts of the broadcast (commercials).

The FCC should go after Viacom for what it is doing to all viewers. How many are sitting there going what the bleep! To me nudity and language & violence is less offensice than all these crawls so many stations are doing. That's why I don't watch News12 on Cable... continuous crawls (until the commercials of course.)

Overall despite being against government interference in business.....
I'm getting tired of all these desputes (Viacom vs E*) Time-Warner vs Disney)

Looks like time for the gov't to step in and make it illegal for providers or cable/E*/D* to bundle any channel with any other channel when it comes time to make agreements. Every channel would have to be done separately. (sp?) Instead they are just allowing more and more consolidation.

My 3 cents worth.


----------



## Link

A 5% increase is probably more than it sounds like. Which probably means more rate increases for us. 40% Charlie talks about might be over the long term. I can't think he would lie about it or jeaopardize a company that he has a primary interest in for no good reason.


----------



## twidget

The only show I would miss is South Park and I can wait for the dvd.
Don't watch MTV or any of the Nick clones.
CBS isn't an O & O here in Jax Fl, so that isn't a problem.
If content providers get whatever they want pretty soon no subscription service would be cheap.
I'm sorry if you like any of the stations that may go.


----------



## ypsiguy

jasonjpw said:


> $15 - Viacom Crap Pack
> MTV
> MTV HITS
> MTV 2
> VH1
> VH1 Classic
> VH1 Soul
> VH1 Country
> NICKE
> NICKW
> TV LAND
> SPIKE TV
> CMT
> BET
> Comedy Central
> Nick GAS
> NOGGIN/THE N
> Nick Toons
> Sundance Channel
> TMC WEST
> TMC XTRA WEST
> FLIX
> 
> $20 - Ammericas Top 60
> $30 - Americas Top 120
> $40 - Americas Top 180
> or
> $25 - Americas Top 60 + Locals
> $35 - Americas Top 120 + Locals
> $45 - Americas Top 180 + Locals
> or
> $28 - Americas Top 60 + Viacom
> $38 - Americas Top 120 + Viacom
> $48 - Americas Top 180 + Viacom
> or
> $33 - Americas Top 60 + Viacom + Locals
> $43 - Americas Top 120 + Viacom + Locals
> $53 - Americas Top 180 + Viacom + Locals
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> We should do this with every major provider
> Viacom and Turner


Don't forget ESPN !!!


----------



## garypen

justalurker said:


> Thanks music_beans ... it all starts with one.
> 
> GOOD journalism points out the facts. Bad journalism pushes an agenda.


You decide.


----------



## garypen

PACOP said:


> Charlie Lied : Read The Latest
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> EXCERPT:
> Speaking at a conference in Washington, DC, EchoStar CEO Charlie Ergen described Viacom's position as "extortion at the highest level." Ergen claimed that Viacom was asking for a 40% hike in its rates, but Viacom officials insisted that the rate increase being sought was only 7%, a rate acknowledged by EchoStar attorneys in San Francisco courtroom proceedings. People close to the negotiations now say that Viacom has reduced its demanded fee increase to 5% annually.
> 
> HIS OWN LAWYERS EVEN CONFIRMED THE RATE INCREASE REQUEST WAS 7%. NOW VIACOM HAS DROPPED IT TO 5%. SOUNDS LIKE VIACOM IS TRYING TO WORK WITH CHARLIE BUT HE IS BEING DIFFICULT. CAUGHT IN A LIE AND YOU PEOPLE STILL TAKE HIS SIDE AND BELIVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE. WAKE UP.
> HERES THE LINK:http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/030804echostar


Dude, even 5% annually is HUGE. 7% is outrageous.


----------



## Tyralak

Nick said:


> I was thinking the same thing, freak. Charlie is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. Pesonally, I fully support his efforts to hold the line on rates. I'm sure he is amenable to a reasonable bump from Viacon, but he has to stand firm against those _ESPN-style_ take it or leave it unjustified mega-increases.


I agree. I'm going to e-mail [email protected] right now and tell Charlie to stand his ground. It may be inconvienient for a while, but it will be good for us in the end. I have to say, I've been critical of Charlie in the past, but this impresses the hell out of me. :joy:


----------



## Mark Holtz

Unless a extension is granted, it's T minus 24 hours.


----------



## reddice

Cheapo Charlie never want's to pay anything and yet our bill still goes up.
As of Tuesday I will be a Directv subscriber (mainly because their equipment is garbage, read my post history or on Directv fourms) nd not have to worry about cheapo hick Charlie anymore with not getting YES (plus blacking out any Yankees games on ESPN) and removign Viacom channels that I mainly watch.


----------



## Guest

Is their any latest or news whether he is going to sign or not?


----------



## scooper

5% annually is outrageous for most of what Viacom is "re-broadcasting". 5% over 3 years is possibly a little low.


----------



## RAD

reddice said:


> Cheapo Charlie never want's to pay anything and yet our bill still goes up.
> *As of Tuesday I will be a Directv subscriber (mainly because their equipment is garbage, read my post history or on Directv fourms) *nd not have to worry about cheapo hick Charlie anymore with not getting YES (plus blacking out any Yankees games on ESPN) and removign Viacom channels that I mainly watch.


You're going to D* because their equipment is garbage, I'm confused????


----------



## willy

reddice said:


> Cheapo Charlie never want's to pay anything and yet our bill still goes up.
> As of Tuesday I will be a Directv subscriber (mainly because their equipment is garbage, read my post history or on Directv fourms) nd not have to worry about cheapo hick Charlie anymore with not getting YES (plus blacking out any Yankees games on ESPN) and removign Viacom channels that I mainly watch.


Have fun over in D* land. Last I checked they raise rates too... *just did* as a matter of fact.

Just imagine how much your bill would go up if "Cheapo Charlie" DID pay for every bad deal on the table. Posts like this just make me shake my head.. but its your choice. :nono2:

YES network.. well face it, most of america could care less about this channel, and in order to buy it you'd have to deliver other channels that probably fewer people would like. Causing another rate increase by "Cheapo Charlie" that you'd likely get all bunged up over.

And have the viacom channels been removed?


----------



## Agent0042

> And have the viacom channels been removed?


No, cut-off time is midnight tonight, about 15 hours from now. Not last night.


----------



## willy

I know Agent-- he was saying if he left E* he wouldnt have to put up with Cheapo Charlie not getting YES, and removing the Viacom channels. It was a rhetorical question, since he's says he's leaving partly because Viacom channels are dropped... whcih they havent been yet.


----------



## chifishman

> Cheapo Charlie?????


Better then Cheapo VIACRASH... 
(I am currently a Comcast? Or is it a comcrash?? Hmm unhappy subscriber. But that is neither here nor their)

I called and complained to Comcast about the Attention Dish Customenrs&#8230; scroll... seems I was not the only one calling Comcast complaining about it! at least that is what their CSR told me...


----------



## newsub

chifishman said:


> Better then Cheapo VIACRASH...
> (I am currently a Comcast? Or is it a comcrash?? Hmm unhappy subscriber. But that is neither here nor their)
> 
> I called and complained to Comcast about the Attention Dish Customenrs&#8230; scroll... seems I was not the only one calling Comcast complaining about it! at least that is what their CSR told me...


Well if the viacom's are dropped I'm going back to digital cable. Gonna call dish on my dad's behalf and drop down to the top 60 and go to the local comcast office and take them up on their offer of free digital plus with hbo and showtime for two months.


----------



## JohnH

Has any body seen this crawl on local CBS stations or Distant CBS stations?


----------



## Guest

justalurker said:


> From the archives (Original Post) - with a few corrections but no guarantee of accuracy ...
> Here is the list of channels that may be shut off:
> BET
> Nickelodeon /Nick At Night
> MTV
> MTV2
> NOGGIN
> TV Land
> VH1
> CMT
> Spike TV
> Comedy Central
> Flix
> The Movie Channel
> Sundance
> 
> Please note that Showtime is not in danger of being removed.
> 
> We may also lose the following CBS Stations in these cities:
> KEYE Austin, TX
> WJZ Baltimore, MD
> WBZ Boston, MA
> WBBM Chicago, IL
> KTVT Dallas-Fort Worth, TX
> KCNC Denver, CO
> WWJ Detroit, MI
> WFRV Green Bay, WI
> WCBS NewYork, NY
> WFOR Miami, FL
> KYW Philadelphia, PA
> KDKA Pittsburg, PA
> KUTV Saly Lake City, UT
> KPIX San Francisco, CA
> KCBS Los Angeles, CA
> 
> We may lose the following UPN stations:
> WUPA - Atlanta
> WSBK - Boston
> WWHO - Columbus
> KTXA - Dallas
> WKBD - Detroit
> WNDY - Indianapolis
> WBFS - Miami
> WUPL - New Orleans
> WGNT - Norfolk
> KAUT - Oklahoma City
> WPSG - Philadelphia
> WNPA - Pittsburgh
> WLWC - Providence
> KMAX - Sacramento
> KBHK - San Francisco
> KSTW - Seattle
> WTOG - Tampa
> WTVX - West Palm Beach
> 
> Misc stations:
> WJMN - Escanba, MI
> KCAL - Los Angeles, CA
> KUSG - Washington, UT​
> Just so we know what all the OTHER threads are talking about. :grin:


CBS is in re-runs 'cept for Survivor, which has been quite a drag to watch this season. We don't watch any of the other channels on the list at our house, and frankly our team doesn't look to be a factor in the NCAA.

Plenty of other stations where we live that do a great job with local news, weather and sports.

Just one household's opinion I realize.

Ho-hum, for now. Stick to your convictions Charlie.

-Earl
Yankee born Southern bred


----------



## chifishman

Yes the Chicago (WBBM) has had this stupid message... 
I can not tell you how often it occurs. But did catch it at least twice as I flipped through the channels. Outside of CSI and Survivor, that station might as well save electricity and shut down!


----------



## JohnH

chifishman said:


> Yes the Chicago (WBBM) has had this stupid message...
> I can not tell you how often it occurs. But did catch it at least twice as I flipped through the channels. Outside of CSI and Survivor, that station might as well save electricity and shut down!


Did E* attempt to block it out?

IMHO it would seem to be a violation for E* to do this. Modifying the content, sort of.


----------



## garypen

Mark Holtz said:


> Unless a extension is granted, it's T minus 24 hours.


Oughta be an interesting CC tonight.


----------



## Todd4300

I have had dish for a few years now and never had any problems with them. Never had to contact a CSR for any help so I don't know anything about them.

Of the channels we would lose from viacom half are pure garbage and the rest have a decent show on once in a while but I doubt I would miss them. I would hope we would get some lower rates from these channels not being carried but if we do lose these channels I think it will only be for a very short time.

channels I would miss TV-Land.

channels I watch a show or two on, Spike, Nick (nick at night) & comedy central but I really wouldnt miss them. 

CMT I don't listen to country so I never watch but I'm sure it's a decent channel.

rest I never watch.

MTV, VH1 mostly pure garbage these days. I hate being forced to pay for them to get one or two channels I want to watch.

My final opinion: Pull the plug, lower the rates.


----------



## AppliedAggression

OH NO! Not my BET! :-/


----------



## Bobby94928

If the price is a 5% increase and that goes over 5 years (Charlie used 5 years in an interview) it is a 29% increase overall. At 7% (and that's what Charlie was using) it comes to 37% and that's fairly close to the 40% he used. Charlie is no liar. Some folks here have an agenda.

BTW, I notice that PACOP has some posts here and then the exact same post over at the other forum under NAVVET. I find it funny that NAVVET posts here agreeing with PACOP.


----------



## freakmonkey

The only VIACOM that will really be missed is noggin and nick jr.

My 2 4 and 6 year old boys just love Bob The builder and Dora the explorer. We have about 100 hours backed up on VHS so we are ready for it. 

The only thing I will miss is South Park. 

If the VIACOM are gone for a long period of time then I hope that E* puts up PBSkids as an alternate to nick jr. A 2 and 4 yearold would love it even if its just recasts of Clifford and sesame street. 

To any one that wants to bash pbskids keep in mind it is entertainment for very small children. You are not supposed to be into it or like it.


----------



## Richard King

> BTW, I notice that PACOP has some posts here and then the exact same post over at the other forum under NAVVET. I find it funny that NAVVET posts here agreeing with PACOP.


The writing style is the same. There is something wrong with the caps key on "both" of their computers.


----------



## rjruby

freakmonkey said:


> The only VIACOM that will really be missed is noggin and nick jr.


If Noggin goes, I hate to think how my grandaughter is going to react!


----------



## James Hill

I've seen the crawls on both MTV2 and KUTV (Viacom owned CBS affiliate in SLC, UT).

It was blocked after about 10 seconds (during Beavis & Butt-head, no less), but not on the local station.

James Hill


----------



## greylar

wow from some of the posts here you would think that people are going to be throwing themselves out of windows if we lose the Viacom channels. :lol: 

G


----------



## TonyM

JohnH said:


> Has any body seen this crawl on local CBS stations or Distant CBS stations?


I saw it yesterday on WCCO. My grandma called me about it. She saw it Saturday night and asked me about it. I explained it as simple as I could (Viacom owns WCCO and they want more money) and my grandma, god love her, says "Is this like last year with that f-ing Fox Sports Net?" (last year FSN wanted more money on Time Warner, and TW yanked FSN for about 3 1/2 months..they chucked cable and got Dish..)

If they yank CBS and she cant see her soap, I am running for the hills (and not answering my cell)


----------



## TonyM

greylar said:


> wow from some of the posts here you would think that people are going to be throwing themselves out of windows if we lose the Viacom channels. :lol:
> 
> G


no crap

"Oh my god, Im losing Viacom channels! Im going to jump ship if Viacom is gone for even 10 minutes!"

There is _that_ much good stuff on Viacom channels that people are going to go to Direct, or god forbid, CABLE?? while this gets sorted out.

Its just TV....Remember when the only option for some people was an antenna...and a real crappy picture. So I might lose CBS..whoopee! I'll just have to watch the 2 transator CBS stations in my area (KCCW and KDLH). Yeah they're low power, but it's what we were use to before Dish Network.


----------



## Nick

TonyM said:


> I saw it yesterday on WCCO. My grandma called me about it. She saw it Saturday night and asked me about it. I explained it as simple as I could...and my grandma, God love her, says "Is this like last year with that f-ing Fox Sports Net?" ...they chucked cable and got Dish.
> 
> If they yank CBS and she can't see her soap, I am running for the hills (and not answering my cell)


G'bless your grandma. She's my kind of TV fan. Is she single????


----------



## TonyM

Nick said:


> G'bless your grandma. She's my kind of TV fan. Is she single????


nope...Her and Grandpa celebrated their 50th anniv. last August


----------



## greylar

TonyM said:


> no crap
> Its just TV....Remember when the only option for some people was an antenna...and a real crappy picture.


HeHe, I'm one of those. I had a B&W, no cable.

I enjoy watching alot of TV, but lets face it there is probably better things I could be doing. God forbid if people figure that out and spend some time with their families. 

G


----------



## Bobby94928

The writing style is more than the same, it is exact.

This is from the other forum under NAVVET:
Charlie Lied : Read The Latest

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EXCERPT:
Speaking at a conference in Washington, DC, EchoStar CEO Charlie Ergen described Viacom's position as "extortion at the highest level." Ergen claimed that Viacom was asking for a 40% hike in its rates, but Viacom officials insisted that the rate increase being sought was only 7%, a rate acknowledged by EchoStar attorneys in San Francisco courtroom proceedings. People close to the negotiations now say that Viacom has reduced its demanded fee increase to 5% annually.

HIS OWN LAWYERS EVEN CONFIRMED THE RATE INCREASE REQUEST WAS 7%. NOW VIACOM HAS DROPPED IT TO 5%. SOUNDS LIKE VIACOM IS TRYING TO WORK WITH CHARLIE BUT HE IS BEING DIFFICULT. CAUGHT IN A LIE AND YOU PEOPLE STILL TAKE HIS SIDE AND BELIVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE. WAKE UP.
HERES THE LINK:http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/030804echostar

and this one from here under PACOP:
Charlie Lied : Read The Latest

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EXCERPT:
Speaking at a conference in Washington, DC, EchoStar CEO Charlie Ergen described Viacom's position as "extortion at the highest level." Ergen claimed that Viacom was asking for a 40% hike in its rates, but Viacom officials insisted that the rate increase being sought was only 7%, a rate acknowledged by EchoStar attorneys in San Francisco courtroom proceedings. People close to the negotiations now say that Viacom has reduced its demanded fee increase to 5% annually.

HIS OWN LAWYERS EVEN CONFIRMED THE RATE INCREASE REQUEST WAS 7%. NOW VIACOM HAS DROPPED IT TO 5%. SOUNDS LIKE VIACOM IS TRYING TO WORK WITH CHARLIE BUT HE IS BEING DIFFICULT. CAUGHT IN A LIE AND YOU PEOPLE STILL TAKE HIS SIDE AND BELIVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE. WAKE UP.
HERES THE LINK:http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/030804echostar

and then we have NAVVETs agreement with PACOPs posting:
i agree with pacop. forbes is a very reputable newsource. it sounds accurate to me. some people could see the truth if they would only open their eyes and minds.


----------



## SPENCER

One should not ignore the fact that in the federal court judges recent decision not to extend EchoStar's ability to carry Viacom channels she noted that E* had an excellent potential anti-trust case against Viacom. This was based on the fact that Viacom tied local channel carriage to carriage of national programming networks (some of which are truely garbage). Therefore is Ergen really that screwed if a federal court rules that Viacom is being monopolistic? He could end up in the cat bird's seat, but I still do not think he will drop the channels...


----------



## SPENCER

You need to chill out my friend. Charlie is not lying. For example if a contract last 10 years and the first year the contract costs increase 30%, second year 20%, third year 10%. and ultimately in year 10 is perhaps 3%, then the CAGR or average annual growth rate in the contract could easily be 7%...



Bobby94928 said:


> The writing style is more than the same, it is exact.
> 
> This is from the other forum under NAVVET:
> Charlie Lied : Read The Latest
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> EXCERPT:
> Speaking at a conference in Washington, DC, EchoStar CEO Charlie Ergen described Viacom's position as "extortion at the highest level." Ergen claimed that Viacom was asking for a 40% hike in its rates, but Viacom officials insisted that the rate increase being sought was only 7%, a rate acknowledged by EchoStar attorneys in San Francisco courtroom proceedings. People close to the negotiations now say that Viacom has reduced its demanded fee increase to 5% annually.
> 
> HIS OWN LAWYERS EVEN CONFIRMED THE RATE INCREASE REQUEST WAS 7%. NOW VIACOM HAS DROPPED IT TO 5%. SOUNDS LIKE VIACOM IS TRYING TO WORK WITH CHARLIE BUT HE IS BEING DIFFICULT. CAUGHT IN A LIE AND YOU PEOPLE STILL TAKE HIS SIDE AND BELIVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE. WAKE UP.
> HERES THE LINK:http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/030804echostar
> 
> and this one from here under PACOP:
> Charlie Lied : Read The Latest
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> EXCERPT:
> Speaking at a conference in Washington, DC, EchoStar CEO Charlie Ergen described Viacom's position as "extortion at the highest level." Ergen claimed that Viacom was asking for a 40% hike in its rates, but Viacom officials insisted that the rate increase being sought was only 7%, a rate acknowledged by EchoStar attorneys in San Francisco courtroom proceedings. People close to the negotiations now say that Viacom has reduced its demanded fee increase to 5% annually.
> 
> HIS OWN LAWYERS EVEN CONFIRMED THE RATE INCREASE REQUEST WAS 7%. NOW VIACOM HAS DROPPED IT TO 5%. SOUNDS LIKE VIACOM IS TRYING TO WORK WITH CHARLIE BUT HE IS BEING DIFFICULT. CAUGHT IN A LIE AND YOU PEOPLE STILL TAKE HIS SIDE AND BELIVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE. WAKE UP.
> HERES THE LINK:http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/030804echostar
> 
> and then we have NAVVETs agreement with PACOPs posting:
> i agree with pacop. forbes is a very reputable newsource. it sounds accurate to me. some people could see the truth if they would only open their eyes and minds.


----------



## JohnH

For those who follow such things:

What would seem to be The CBS Takedown message slate still says "Repeal the Utah Satellite Tax".


----------



## PACOP

Bobby, Ever Heard Of Cut And Paste.


----------



## Roger Tee

garypen said:


> Dude, even 5% annually is HUGE. 7% is outrageous.


And lest we forget that 5% is each year compounded. using 1$ for example

year 1 5% of base = 1.05$

year 2 5% of base + the previous 5% of $1.05

year 3 5% of the year 2 rate, ad infinitum...

I'd like to get a 5% raise each year!

My expenses keep going up and salary doesn't keep pace, therefore each year my standard of living slips. Im my budget the entertainment costs seem to rise the fastest... Cable, Dishnetwork, Movie ticket prices.

Are the Viacom and Espn & Disney raises fair? Are they in line with Are they in line with what the average American gets for a raise, Keeping in mind what raise I get also bumps my IRS bracket.

TTFN


----------



## MrPete

PACOP said:


> If You Read The Article It Seems Pretty Cut And Dry To Me. But Even If You Give Charlie The Benefit Of The Doubt The Contract Is Supposed To Be Good For 3 Yrs. So 5% Annually Would Be 15% For The Total 3 Years, Which Is Still No Where Near 40%.


I'm still reading thru this pile of msgs so excuse me if somebody has already answered this....

You have to ask yourself what the 40% number Charlie referred to really is.

VIACOM wants Dish to pay 7% more in fees (rumors say it is now down to 5%) while it was mentioned that DirectTV and cable outlets were forced to only pay 5% more in fees.

If you do the math, (I know, math is hard)...
This is a 2% difference (7% - 5%) .
While this is a 2% difference in the total increase, it is 40% more ( 2/5 = 40% ) than the 5% increase DirectTV/Cable negotiated in their contracts.

It just sounds better for Charlie to say that he is being charged 40% more (relative to DirectTV/Cable's increase) than to say he the total difference is 2%.


----------



## Guest

No Chappelle Show or South Park? Will be gone tommorrow if this happens. No one else has problems with keeping these channels.


----------



## James Long

MrPete said:


> You have to ask yourself what the 40% number Charlie referred to really is.


The reference was to Charlie saying that Viacom wanted to raise the rates 40% over a period of years, not 40% more than Viacom is raising other carrier's rates.
The lawyers allegedly say that works out to 7% per year ... OK - componded ...
2003 = $1.00
2004 = $1.07
2005 = $1.15
2006 = $1.23
2007 = $1.31
2008 = $1.40 --- wow a 40% increase over the next five years.

Viacom is now allegedly offering 5% ...
2003 = $1.00
2004 = $1.05
2005 = $1.10
2006 = $1.16
2007 = $1.22
2008 = $1.28
2009 = $1.34
2010 = $1.41 --- 40% increase over the next seven years

BTW: The service contracts I have been negotiating (non-content, but broadcast related) have a 3% escalator charge as an industry standard. And it is still too much to pay! (But not too much to charge  )

JL


----------



## greylar

MrPete said:


> If you do the math, (I know, math is hard)...
> This is a 2% difference (7% - 5%) .
> While this is a 2% difference in the total increase, it is 40% more ( 2/5 = 40% ) than the 5% increase DirectTV/Cable negotiated in their contracts.


Nice! That makes sense.

G

edit:


justalurker said:


> The lawyers allegedly say that works out to 7% per year ... OK - componded ...
> 2003 = $1.00
> 2004 = $1.07
> 2005 = $1.15
> 2006 = $1.23
> 2007 = $1.31
> 2008 = $1.40 --- wow a 40% increase over the next five years.


Either way I don't think Charlie was pulling numbers out of his butt.

G


----------



## TonyM

Mothergoose said:


> No Chappelle Show or South Park? Will be gone tommorrow if this happens. No one else has problems with keeping these channels.


Bye troll! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!


----------



## Richard King

justalurker said:


> The reference was to Charlie saying that Viacom wanted to raise the rates 40% over a period of years, not 40% more than Viacom is raising other carrier's rates.
> The lawyers allegedly say that works out to 7% per year ... OK - componded ...
> 2003 = $1.00
> 2004 = $1.07
> 2005 = $1.15
> 2006 = $1.23
> 2007 = $1.31
> 2008 = $1.40 --- wow a 40% increase over the next five years.
> 
> Viacom is now allegedly offering 5% ...
> 2003 = $1.00
> 2004 = $1.05
> 2005 = $1.10
> 2006 = $1.16
> 2007 = $1.22
> 2008 = $1.28
> 2009 = $1.34
> 2010 = $1.41 --- 40% increase over the next seven years
> 
> BTW: The service contracts I have been negotiating (non-content, but broadcast related) have a 3% escalator charge as an industry standard. And it is still too much to pay! (But not too much to charge  )
> 
> JL


And if Charlie simply rolls over and accepts a 7% per year increase from all suppliers as some seem to imply (so that he won't be called "Cheap Charlie") expect to see the following rate increases on his CHEAPEST package (with no consideration for hardware upkeep, new satellites, labor costs or any other costs being passed on):
AT 60
2004 24.99
2005 26.74
2006 28.61
2007 30.61
2008 32.75

I can just imagine the screaming and threats from those who call him Cheap Charlie now and balked at a $1.00 increase recently with those kinds of increases looming in the future.


----------



## Goodfella

TonyM said:


> Bye troll! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!


I'm gone as well if they don't get their collective heads out of their rear quarters.
$100 of revenue per month out the door for Charles. Don't worry, I won't let the door hit me either.


----------



## Nick

Welcome, Goodfella! :hi:


----------



## Goodfella

Nick said:


> Welcome, Goodfella! :hi:


Thanks Nick!  Hope to be here awhile!


----------



## FTA Michael

Richard King said:


> And if Charlie simply rolls over and accepts a 7% per year increase from all suppliers as some seem to imply (so that he won't be called "Cheap Charlie") expect to see the following rate increases on his CHEAPEST package (with no consideration for hardware upkeep, new satellites, labor costs or any other costs being passed on):
> AT 60
> 2004 24.99 ...
> 2008 32.75


Programming fees are a small part of the cost of maintaining a subscriber. Even if each AT180 customer's programming fees are $10 (a deliberately high guess), then 7% increases across the board (worst case) would raise E*'s costs by only $3.50-$4 per sub.

E*'s fixed costs per sub go down as more subs join, so if E* adds more subs in the years to come, that cost component will go down.

So what will E* charge in 2008? Whatever makes it the most money. You can't predict Quarter Pounder(R) prices by the price of beef, and you can't predict cable/DBS rates by the cost of programming.


----------



## toddjb

Its just a negotiation game. All the same, if the channels go off and stay off I'd go to DirectTivo or Cable. DISH for some reason gets caught in games like these every year and they really don't have a significant leg up on the competition IMO that makes it worth staying....


----------



## TonyM

Goodfella said:


> I'm gone as well if they don't get their collective heads out of their rear quarters.
> $100 of revenue per month out the door for Charles. Don't worry, I won't let the door hit me either.


So let me get this straight......just because we might lose some Viacom channels for a day, maybe 2, maybe a week, you're going to leave Dish and start over with something else?

I'm not being pissy, but it's amazing how people come on these boards and say things like "If we lose the Viacom channels for even a minute, I'm gone". Those are the ones I'm saying "bye" to. The ones who need something to complain about, and this whole Viacom thing is their perfect excuse. Let them go to cable and their sky high rates, or Direct and their "you must have Total Choice at minimum". Since Dish allows me to have a low end package or even just locals, that is one of the reasons why I am staying.

Like I've said before....ITS JUST TV..I would rather lose those for a day or two, if it keeps by bill down each month.


----------



## Joe Capitano

In response to an earlier query: The crawl-and-blackbar treatment popped up on WCBS today during the first and fifth One-Bids of "The Price is Right."

Another crawl came up, at much faster speed, on KCNC an hour later. The first one was not covered. I don't know if one occurred after the half-hour break or not, but I suppose you can all do the math.

What we need to do is find the negotiators, feed them a hefty meal, then lock them in a room with no breaks for food, drink or relief until a deal is reached.


----------



## James Long

TonyM said:


> So let me get this straight......just because we might lose some Viacom channels for a day, maybe 2, maybe a week, you're going to leave Dish and start over with something else?


Good point. And no matter how many you or I say that simple line we are going to be surrounded by people who seem to think the world will end at 3am ET. Just 11hrs and 14 minutes away.

This sign is for them :imwith:

JL


----------



## TonyM

justalurker said:


> Good point. And no matter how many times you or I say that simple line we are going to be surrounded by people who seem to think the world will end at 3am ET. Just 11hrs and 14 minutes away.
> 
> This sign is for them :imwith:
> 
> JL


Thank you for agreeing with me, Lurker.

The world isnt going to end at 3 Eastern...The sun will rise tomorrow, I'll still make my 38 mile trip to work, and when I come home at 6 CT, I will still be able to watch the news...although I might only have 2 options (NBC & ABC)...


----------



## tampa8

To the few who insist they are going to leave if ............

First, I do not believe you. I have looked at two posters who said that about the last price increase, and they are still customers according to their recent posts. Just do a search on price increases then look at posters who said that and have recent posts.

Second, what could possibly be more of a statement to Viacom than Dish not losing many subscribers while they are not carrying their stations. If it does come to non carriage, don't you think that would help change the way prices keep rising? If Dish does not get hurt by it, Viacom has a big problem. I will grant you, not getting a CBS local could make some subscribers change, but I wonder how many will leave that quickly if the others are not on there. Remember, in most households MTV or VH1 is not the channel *most* watch who are paying the bills. Ditto cartoon channels, though you might have to find something else for the kids.

I don't want to make it seem like Charlie is some kind of hero. He is doing what is best for his business. But it is in our interest for him to succeed in this also. With the announcement of Direct TV possibly limiting what can be recorded and for how long (see other posts) perhaps Dish staying independant will help keep us from things like that. Maybe not, who knows, but certainly costs will be somewhat under control if Charlie shows that higher prices are not always going to fly.


----------



## mds54

tampa8 said:


> I don't want to make it seem like Charlie is some kind of hero. He is doing what is best for his business.


Funny, I see it completely differently. Charlie has lost sight of his most valuable asset....his loyal customers. While he "bargains", we lose. I will lose CBS all together as I am not able to receive it OTA. And that includes my CBS-HD which I watch extensively. But no matter what happens, just putting us in this predicament of not knowing what channels we will be able to watch each day (starting with the Superbowl) is something we should not have to tolerate. It's not worth it. Yes, if Charlie lets this situation deprive us of several of our channels, it will tell me that Dish will never be a truly customer-oriented company, and these situations will likely rise again. I WILL leave......and I'll watch for the door too!


----------



## willy

mds,

So you see charlie negotiating against unfair rate hikes as putting his customers last? I take it then you want your programming, no matter what the cost? Im guessing if charlie succumbed to viacom and hikes your rates up by a few bucks, youd be saying "Charlie has lost sight of his most valuable asset.." etc. but because "he" raised our rates (not Viacom).


----------



## MikeSoltis

How about this point of view....

Is it reasonable for Viacom, a channel provider to raise their rates?
Don't they get paid for commercial time on their networks, and don't there seem to be more and more commercials on their networks?
So wouldn't they already be making more money by selling more commercial time (at a no doubt higher price)???

...just a thought


----------



## mds54

willy said:


> mds,
> I take it then you want your programming, no matter what the cost? Im guessing if charlie succumbed to viacom and hikes your rates up by a few bucks, youd be saying "Charlie has lost sight of his most valuable asset.." etc. but because "he" raised our rates (not Viacom).


Honestly, I would accept ANY rate hike in order to keep CBS-HD. I didn't get into the HDTV arena in order to pinch pennies. I'd pay an increase right now if it meant I would retain CBS-HD. Losing this channel alone means losing Dish for me. This may be a minority viewpoint, but it is totally valid for me.


----------



## JohnH

Well, it looks a bit more serious from here, now.

They just replaced the Utah Tax Repeal card with the CBS stations takedown info card.


----------



## Richard King

> What we need to do is find the negotiators, feed them a hefty meal, then lock them in a room with no breaks for food, drink or relief until a deal is reached.


Actually, forget the hefty meal, just force them to drink and drink and drink until they can hold no more and THEN lock them in the room.


----------



## VTBoy

Do you realize that Nick is the most watch cable channel on standard cable. A large portion of its viewers are not children, there is not that many children watching TV. Infact the most watched show on standard cable is the fairly oddparents a show on nick. At the same time do you know that Spike TV ranks among the most watched as well. I am sure loosing Viacom will have a substantial impact on DISH network.


----------



## Goodfella

TonyM said:


> So let me get this straight......just because we might lose some Viacom channels for a day, maybe 2, maybe a week, you're going to leave Dish and start over with something else?


If you would be so kind to point out where I said that I'd appreciate it. A day, two, a week? I'll let that slide *this time*. Never said otherwise.



TonyM said:


> I'm not being pissy, but it's amazing how people come on these boards and say things like "If we lose the Viacom channels for even a minute, I'm gone". Those are the ones I'm saying "bye" to. The ones who need something to complain about, and this whole Viacom thing is their perfect excuse.


I'm not aware of many others who have said if they lose their channels for even a minute they're gone. 
I don't need a damn thing to complain about but I won't sit around and take it in the rear to appease a company that relies on *me* (the customer) to survive.



TonyM said:


> Like I've said before....ITS JUST TV..I would rather lose those for a day or two, if it keeps by bill down each month.


I think if everyone was privy to the fact (as you apparently are) that this will only be for a day or two there would be very little *****ing. I'm quite relieved now that I know for fact it's just for a day or two


----------



## TonyM

VTBoy said:


> Do you realize that Nick is the most watch cable channel on standard cable. A large portion of its viewers are not children, there is not that many children watching TV. At the same time do you know that Spike TV ranks among the most watched as well. I am sure loosing Viacom will have a substantial impact on DISH network.


First off....its LOSING, not loosing

Other than WWE Raw, there is nothing on Spike I watch. I really don't watch Nick either (use to for SpongeBob).

We'll lose them for a day and then they'll come to an agreement


----------



## uncdanwrong

Last night I saw one of Viacom's scrolls on KDKA-TV and my opinion is such scrolls are just plain wrong. First of all it's a lie. The scroll says that Dish Network subscribers should insist on getting the channels they're paying for. Viacom knows very well that neither E* or D* quarantee reception of specific channels. I don't think that Viacom would like it if Dish ran scrolls asking people to complain to the FCC that Viacom was trying to invoke must carry while trying to collect consent to carry! Clearly Viacom is more desperate than they want to admit.


----------



## VTBoy

TonyM said:


> First off....its LOSING, not loosing
> 
> Other than WWE Raw, there is nothing on Spike I watch. I really don't watch Nick either (use to for SpongeBob).
> 
> We'll lose them for a day and then they'll come to an agreement


You may not watch it but a lot of people do. They will lose subscribers without Viacom. Also you don't know it will only be for a day or two, this thing could be for a year or more.


----------



## Agent0042

I would *definitely* miss Nick. Spike I might depending on what happened / how long it was.


----------



## JohnH

Funny, I never see any notices which say Nick or Spike won the ratings race for the week.


----------



## Agent0042

Huh? I regularly read on Zap2It that Nick's _Spongebob_ and _Fairly Oddparents_ are among top-rated cable/satellite shows.


----------



## VTBoy

JohnH said:


> Funny, I never see any notices which say Nick or Spike won the ratings race for the week.


http://www.zap2it.com/television/news/ratings/cable/

Look at the top 15 what channel has the most NICK.


----------



## TonyM

> If you would be so kind to point out where I said that I'd appreciate it. A day, two, a week? I'll let that slide this time. Never said otherwise.


oh, excuse me.......I was making a point. People come on here and say they're gone before the channels are off. No need to get pissy.



> I'm not aware of many others who have said if they lose their channels for even a minute they're gone.


Read the boards.... People are jumping ship before the channels are taken off.



> I don't need a damn thing to complain about but I won't sit around and take it in the rear to appease a company that relies on me (the customer) to survive.


What are you taking in the rear? The fact that Charlie (and company) is standing up for something..The fact that Viacom wants to take away channels *THAT WE COULD GET FOR FREE OVER THE AIR (CBS)* if Charlie doesn't agree to their demands and pay this money for these channels is asinine. The only reason I have locals through Dish is I am about 100 miles from the main Minneapolis towers, so I have to rely on low powered translator stations if I want to see my CBS, NBC, ABC, etc over the air.



> I think if everyone was privy to the fact (as you apparently are) that this will only be for a day or two there would be very little *****ing. I'm quite relieved now that I know for fact it's just for a day or two


I am looking on the positive here. I really don't want to lose any channels for any amount of time, but IT'S JUST TV." My life will go on if Viacom channels go bye bye for a while.


----------



## VTBoy

Viacom should allow Dish to buy the channels ala cart. Who watches NICK GAS, Nicktoons, VH1 Classics, or MTV2. Why can't Viacom just let Dish have the O&O CBS, Nick, MTV, SPIKE without the other useless channels.


----------



## willy

Seeing how part of the whole problem at hand is that Viacom is insisting on certain channels being in the AT60, i dont think ala carte is even remotely a possibility.


----------



## Jarrett76

What people post here means nothing really since many are pro-dish. Its your average viewer who is going to be steamed. Women will miss soaps, teens will miss MTV, WWE fans will miss Spike, Kids will miss NICK, and many people will miss TVland. Let us hope this ends tonight.


----------



## DoyleS

So, with all eyes glued to their sets tonight, will the channels shutoff on the West Coast at 9PM since that is midnight east coast? Seems likely that would be the case. This whole discussion should be a lot more interesting tomorrow. Maybe tonights Charlie Chat should be renamed as the World Championships of Poker. 

..Doyle


----------



## VTBoy

If Viacom does shut down the channels I really think the goverment should do something. Viacom could just keep making more useless channels and force people to cary those if they want the important channels.


----------



## James_F

Jarrett76 said:


> What people post here means nothing really since many are pro-dish. Its your average viewer who is going to be steamed. Women will miss soaps, teens will miss MTV, WWE fans will miss Spike, Kids will miss NICK, and many people will miss TVland. Let us hope this ends tonight.


What are you talking about. This topic is the best thing to happen to DBSTalk since the whole Scott fiasco. Hundreds of closed threads and newbies posting. I can't get enough...


----------



## scooper

Really - "IT'S JUST TV." Chill - Viacom needs Dish at least as much as Dish needs Viacom. So it may go out for a short (probably less than 1 week) period - it's not the end of the world. Pull out your antennas for CBS, or change to cable, or whatever. 

Most CBS shows are in re-runs now anyway. And the Viacom cable channels mostly just do syndicated reruns anyway. A few new shows on some of them once in a while - not worth getting upset over.

MAYBE - something like this will finally wake up the FCC about some of what happens in the content provider / distributor negotiations. - Maybe even enough to come up with the rules like "can't tie OTA consent to cable channels".


----------



## scooper

DoyleS said:


> So, with all eyes glued to their sets tonight, will the channels shutoff on the West Coast at 9PM since that is midnight east coast? Seems likely that would be the case. This whole discussion should be a lot more interesting tomorrow. Maybe tonights Charlie Chat should be renamed as the World Championships of Poker.
> 
> ..Doyle


That's Midnight Pacific Standard Time - California time...


----------



## TBarclay

Everybody keeps forgetting what Viacom loses if this happens. If they lose 9 million potential viewers for their channels, ratings go down, advertisers ask for refunds, and it can be quite messy for Viacom's business people. It's not just Dish that stands to lose. I still expect a last-minute deal or one within a few days.


----------



## reddice

Jarrett76 said:


> What people post here means nothing really since many are pro-dish. Its your average viewer who is going to be steamed. Women will miss soaps, teens will miss MTV, WWE fans will miss Spike, Kids will miss NICK, and many people will miss TVland. Let us hope this ends tonight.


So true, those are the most popular channels and if they are gone they are going to be alot of annoyed customers.

By the way we are watching CBS OTA now because our switch broke for like the 6th time and we had enough to go with Directv. Plus if you live in the NYC area after 9/11 you can't get OTA stations clear because they are broadcasting off the Empire State Building at low power. They did build a new antenna at 4 Times Square and it has been build since november but still is not used which is stupid, why build it if you are not going to use it.


----------



## Bogney

reddice said:


> By the way we are watching CBS OTA now because our switch broke for like the 6th time and we had enough to go with Directv. Plus if you live in the NYC area after 9/11 you can't get OTA stations clear because they are broadcasting off the Empire State Building at low power. They did build a new antenna at 4 Times Square and it has been build since november but still is not used which is stupid, why build it if you are not going to use it.


WCBS-DT has always been at full power from the Empire State Building, even before 9/11.

WABC-DT is at moderately high power from 4 Times Square.

WNBC-DT is a fairly low power from the GE Building.

All stations should be at Empire at high power by the summer, if the combiner project goes as planned.


----------



## TBarclay

How are you hurt by channels you "might" lose??? You haven't lost a darn thing until tomorrow morning at 3am, if then. All of you talking about how you've been hurt already are just silly. I'm not a big Charlie fan but I appreciate a businessman doing his best to keep costs down. He's won plenty of these battles in the past and I'll certainly support him UNTIL something happens. Nothing has happened yet. (And if it DOES happen, I'll bet it won't last long.) But this is a free country. At least you have an alternative (or two) if you want to leave.


----------



## JohnH

CBS is being a bit creative. They just had the crawl on KYW 3, but it was at the top of the screen.


----------



## James Long

Coming soon to a CBS channel near you?









(Note: this isn't for other Viacom channels - Number removed to prevent harrassment.)

JL
Seven Hours and Twenty Six Minutes To Go ...


----------



## Neutron

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/tech/georgemannes/10147607.html

Check out this latest story on Viacom vs E*


----------



## JohnH

This would be a good night to convert Tp 4 at 61.5 to 8PSK.


----------



## Guest

"Attention Dish Network/Echostar subscribers: WCBS-TV deeply regrets any inconvenience to our viewers resulting from Dish Network's threats to drop WCBS-TV. Dish Network just raised rates for many subscribers by three dollars per month, yet they are refusing to pay Viacom barely 6 cents per month so you can continue to get all of the CBS programs, WCBS-TV's local news, weather and sports, and all of the Viacom cable channels including MTV, Nickelodeon and Comedy Central...just 6 cents total. We are continuing to try to negotiate a fair resolution to this completely unnecessary situation, in the meantime, we remind our viewers that our signal remains available for free over the air, as well as by subscription from DirecTV and your local cable operator. Thank you. Click here for more information." 
------------------------------------
Posted on the cbs newyork website http://cbsnewyork.com/homepage/
Andrew 
PS. I'm going to register right now.


----------



## Guest

I am in shock why is Dish Network being so greedy about 6 cents a month. Just 6 cents more a month a person is nothing.


----------



## James Long

ups767300 said:


> "Attention Dish Network/Echostar subscribers: WCBS-TV deeply regrets any inconvenience to our viewers resulting from Dish Network's threats to drop WCBS-TV. Dish Network just raised rates for many subscribers by three dollars per month, yet they are refusing to pay Viacom barely 6 cents per month so you can continue to get all of the CBS programs, WCBS-TV's local news, weather and sports, and all of the Viacom cable channels including MTV, Nickelodeon and Comedy Central...just 6 cents total. We are continuing to try to negotiate a fair resolution to this completely unnecessary situation, in the meantime, we remind our viewers that our signal remains available for free over the air, as well as by subscription from DirecTV and your local cable operator. Thank you. Click here for more information."
> ------------------------------------
> Posted on the cbs newyork website http://cbsnewyork.com/homepage/
> Andrew
> PS. I'm going to register right now.


My rate went up $1, but only because I don't have locals. (AT120). Most packages didn't see an increase. That quote does show the typical spin ... use numbers to lies ... but 6c times 9 million customers? Can I have that check please? :lol:

JL
There are lies, dmn lies, and statistics.


----------



## Guest

justalurker said:


> My rate went up $1, but only because I don't have locals. (AT120). That quote does show the typical spin ... but 6c times 9 million customers? Can I have that check please? :lol:
> 
> JL


cant you just raise rates by 6 cents, I am sure people are not going to mind paying 6 cents more a month. SO SAD that all of this is over 6 cents a month.


----------



## garypen

TonyM said:


> The world isnt going to end at 3 Eastern...The sun will rise tomorrow, I'll still make my 38 mile trip to work, and when I come home at 6 CT, I will still be able to watch the news...although I might only have 2 options (NBC & ABC)...


You commute 76 miles per day? I'd be too tired to watch TV. Heck. I'd be too tired to work.


----------



## JohnH

OMGDISHISGREEDY said:


> I am in shock why is Dish Network being so greedy about 6 cents a month. Just 6 cents more a month a person is nothing.


Sounds like $540,000.00 a month to me.


----------



## garypen

OMGDISHISGREEDY said:


> I am in shock why is Dish Network being so greedy about 6 cents a month. Just 6 cents more a month a person is nothing.


Those greedy *******s! Why can't they be more like those enormously generous and kind-hearted folks at Viacom? I wish all companies were as wonderful and nice as Viacom. :sure:


----------



## JohnH

Of course the results of this negotiation could affect the Turner negotiations as well.


----------



## James Long

DISHISGREEDY said:


> cant you just raise rates by 6 cents, I am sure people are not going to mind paying 6 cents more a month. SO SAD that all of this is over 6 cents a month.


If 6 cents is so puny, why can't Viacom live without it? :lol:

Come on troll, answer that one. If it really is "only six cents" why can't Viacom just suck it in and live with it? The answer is: It isn't "only six cents".

JL


----------



## Guest

justalurker said:


> If 6 cents is so puny, why can't Viacom live without it? :lol:
> 
> Come on troll, answer that one. If it really is "only six cents" why can't Viacom just suck it in and live with it? The answer is: It isn't "only six cents".
> 
> JL


Then are you calling Viacom a liar. They say it is only 6 cents more total.


----------



## garypen

OMGDISHISGREEDY said:


> Then are you calling Viacom a liar. They say it is only 6 cents more total.


Yes. That's right. All of this is over 6 cents...Total. :lol:


----------



## JohnH

Funny(wierd). they didn't mention Nicktoons.


----------



## PACOP

CHECK OUT THIS LINK.http://images.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_image_068193521


----------



## FTA Michael

OMGDISHISGREEDY said:


> Then are you calling Viacom a liar. They say it is only 6 cents more total.


Man, I had no idea it was this easy.

(Reaching into pocket) Here's 30 cents. Take four more trolls with you.


----------



## James Long

OMGDISHISGREEDY said:


> Then are you calling Viacom a liar. They say it is only 6 cents more total.


You are the poster, troll. You are the one who published CBS's lie into this thread.

You are the one that doesn't seem to realize that 6c per customer per month is 6 million real dollars per year. And then NEXT year they want another 6 million increase. The same the year after. If the 6c figure is accurate, they are asking for (at least) 90 MILLION more dollars over the next five years.

If that 6c is reflective of a reported 5% increase, that 90 million dollars is on top of the 120 million per year Viacom is already getting. Think of it this way: At the current rate Viacom would get $600 million over the next five years. They want $690 million.

Who is greedy?

JL


----------



## PACOP

see you in an hour. going to see the charlie chat to see his side on why they are taking away my channels.


----------



## uncdanwrong

Echostar isn't taking away anyone's channels and Viacom knows it. Only Viacom can take away consent to carry Viacom channels. Anyway from what most are saying they only watch about three Viacom channels, why should Echostar pay for a dozen or more. If you don't think that Viacom isn't worried about this effecting ratings, think again.


----------



## comet48

Charlie chat - $1 discount for CBS and $1 for the rest. Does this add up?


----------



## Mark Holtz

This just in EchoStar-Viacom dispute nears deadline


----------



## jasonjpw

Charlie is only hinting that they will eventually negoctiate. This means that this is not going to last a very long time. I am just going to wait and see what happens. For now I am going to order some HBO. Hey, Free Preview Channels.


----------



## btbrossard

comet48 said:


> Charlie chat - $1 discount for CBS and $1 for the rest. Does this add up?


Must be Charlies New Math.

I pay $3 alone just for CBS (Chicago and LA).

In over two years of having Dish, this is the first Charlie Chat she has watched. She is pissed. My kids are going to be upset tommorow without Nick.

Thanks Charlie-

/Benjamin


----------



## jasonjpw

btbrossard said:


> Must be Charlies New Math.
> 
> I pay $3 alone just for CBS (Chicago and LA).
> 
> In over two years of having Dish, this is the first Charlie Chat she has watched. She is pissed. My kids are going to be upset tommorow without Nick.
> 
> Thanks Charlie-
> 
> /Benjamin


You wont loose the distant CBS thats what charlie said in the chat for the six distant cities. Chicago and LA are distant cities with CBS therefor CBS is protected by SHVA. You can watch NICK on CBS on saterday.


----------



## tampa8

Sure sounds to me that Charlie is really trying to present all sides of this. He is allowing those who disagree with him to call in, and he has invited the President of Viacom or CBS (don't remember which) to come on the air with him tomorrow. Certainly to those who watch some of those channels alot, they will not be happy and should switch to Direct or Cable. Otherwise, it is possible Dish will become less expensive as time goes on and carry a little different lineup than Direct. I really think if it drags on and Dish does not suffer much, Viacom and the others are in some trouble because other providers such as Direct and Cable will do what Charlie did.


----------



## btbrossard

jasonjpw said:


> You can watch NICK on CBS on saterday.


I'm sure my four year old daughter won't mind waiting until Saturday to watch Nick programs.

About the Distant CBS - I'm at work and couldn't watch the Chat. My wife watched it at home and called me at work upset.

The only reason we got DBS in the first place was for children's programming. What was on OTA was poor, to say the least.

/Benjamin


----------



## Jarrett76

comet48 said:


> Charlie chat - $1 discount for CBS and $1 for the rest. Does this add up?


This dont make sense. He wont pay six cents a month, but will pay out 9 million dollars, plus 1.6 million for the viacom owned stations? Is this correct?


----------



## JohnH

CBS HD will come down as well, according to Charlie.


----------



## JohnH

Jarrett76 said:


> This dont make sense. He wont pay six cents a month, but will pay out 9 million dollars, plus 1.6 million for the viacom owned stations? Is this correct?


The figures mentioned on the chat were in the Hundreds of Millions of Dollars, which seems a bit more than the 6 cents, but it may be somewhat apples and oranges. One be monthly and the other may be for 5 years.


----------



## comet48

justalurker said:


> My rate went up $1, but only because I don't have locals. (AT120). Most packages didn't see an increase. That quote does show the typical spin ... use numbers to lies ... but 6c times 9 million customers? Can I have that check please? :lol:
> 
> JL
> There are lies, dmn lies, and statistics.


My package went up by $3. And Charlie's discount of $1 for CBS and $1 for the rest of the Viacom stations has just lost me, a seven year $90+ a month customer. Comcast currently installing fiber to the home, and DirectV looks like they will have their Tivo HDTV recorder out by the end of the month.

Dish appears to be in complete disarray when it comes to receivers. I've tried to get an HDTV reciever and they are either backlogded or vaporware or both.


----------



## James_F

JohnH said:


> ...according to Charlie.


How melodramatic can you be? 

Its not just Charles, but Cox and I'm sure the aussie will be just the same.


----------



## jasonjpw

Jarrett76 said:


> This dont make sense. He wont pay six cents a month, but will pay out 9 million dollars, plus 1.6 million for the viacom owned stations? Is this correct?


This message has been displayed on the CBS Website and the scroll bar at the bottom of the CBS Viacom channels. Although it might be six cents for each customer that watches a CBS Viacom station. Some Viacom stations asked over 40% increases while others did not. Dish negotiates local and cable channels from viacom as a whole and not by individual markets or singal stations.


----------



## jasonjpw

Jarrett76 said:


> This dont make sense. He wont pay six cents a month, but will pay out 9 million dollars, plus 1.6 million for the viacom owned stations? Is this correct?


This message has been displayed on the CBS Website and the scroll bar at the bottom of the CBS Viacom channels. Although it might be six cents for each customer that watches a CBS Viacom station. Some Viacom stations asked over 40% increases while others did not. Dish negotiates local and cable channels from viacom as a whole and not by individual markets or singal stations.


----------



## Neutron

I recorded it since I'm at work. Wife just got home and is watching it now and is not happy at all. A lot of what we watch we will lose at 3am EST.

I heard that towards the end a caller got through the screeners a told Charlie that if they go dark he is switching. Can't blame him for how he feels.


----------



## Guest

A $1 decrease in my bill for 10+ channels being pulled? What a slap in the face. If Comedy Central and MTV go dark on my television for 1 minute, I will cancel Dish without second thought. Absolutely friggin ridiculous!! These public pissing contests between huge companies is so pathetic and that's really all this boils down to.


----------



## psycaz

First words out of my wife's mouth were:" There gone!" when she heard about this. Convinced her to give it a bit if they do go off air - but I can see us switching if it isn't resolved by say the middle of next month.


----------



## ypsiguy

I'm glad to hear the extra space will give other channels a shot at being on Dish. Why should I have to pay higher rates for crap channels that I hate? I'll take different channels and a $1 credit any day. I just deprogrammed both Viacom stations in the Detroit area (CBS 62 and UPN 50) from my DTV box. They are the worst channels in the Detroit area anyway so no loss!!!! To quote an old punk band, "MTV, GET OFF THE AIR.....NOW!!!


----------



## retiredTech

IMHO
Ya gotta know when to hold them. Good for E*!
I believe most channels are being "way over" payed,
for their "commercial laden" programing.
Getting profit from commercials and viewers is double dipping anyway, then Viacom adds insult to this formula by wanting "MORE",
for what is already too high.


----------



## Guest

Whether the channels stay or not, I have a real problem with us customers being used as pawns ONCE AGAIN by Charlie. I just sent him a nice little email explaining my feelings to him. Basically to sum it up, I am a 7 year customer with a monthly bill of $90+ that will cancel tomorrow afternoon and have Time Warner digital cable installed if my MTV channels go dark. It's a shame, but I'll do it.


----------



## psycaz

ypsiguy said:


> I'm glad to hear the extra space will give other channels a shot at being on Dish. Why should I have to pay higher rates for crap channels that I hate? I'll take different channels and a $1 credit any day. I just deprogrammed both Viacom stations in the Detroit area (CBS 62 and UPN 50) from my DTV box. They are the worst channels in the Detroit area anyway so no loss!!!! To quote an old punk band, "MTV, GET OFF THE AIR.....NOW!!!


I'm in surburban detroit. I was just starting to have fun watching the Pistons on UPN, and had finally found 1 show to watch on CBS - NCIS.

What really blows is that our OTA antenna is stuck in place setup to receive CBC channel 9. Its going to be a week or so before I roof climb to try to free it up.


----------



## btbrossard

ypsiguy said:


> I'm glad to hear the extra space will give other channels a shot at being on Dish. Why should I have to pay higher rates for crap channels that I hate?


Why should I have to pay for your crap channels that I hate.

/Benjamin


----------



## ypsiguy

psycaz said:


> I'm in surburban detroit. I was just starting to have fun watching the Pistons on UPN, and had finally found 1 show to watch on CBS - NCIS.
> 
> What really blows is that our OTA antenna is stuck in place setup to receive CBC channel 9. Its going to be a week or so before I roof climb to try to free it up.


If you want to get a good indoor antenna, get a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor. Then u can leave the outdoor on CBC, for "Hockey Night in Canada". I wish Dish would uplink CBC, but they cannot due to many retransmission issues. Since I usually only watch 4, 7 and 56 digital signals, I'll probably just leave 50 and 62 deprogrammed for quite a while since I got treated fairly rudely when I called the CBS number to complain.


----------



## txcruiser

I've been a Dish customer for 6 years. If Charlie doesn't give me a $5.99 monthly credit for not providing all my locals (like he does in markets where he can't provide ALL the channels due to various contractual issues) then I guess it's time to move on to Directv. Sorry Dish but a grand total of $2 a month doesn't cut it.


----------



## rbyers

How about Dish having a Viacom package similar to HBO, Starz, etc. That way all you folks who want the Viacom junk can buy it and I don't have to be bothered with it. 

All kidding aside, I'd like to see Dish use the bandwidth from the Viacom channels to improve PQ. I'll personally never miss any of these channels. Not one of them are on my channel list. Seriously, if Dish were to improve the PQ without Viacom he can keep my $2/month refund.


----------



## ypsiguy

btbrossard said:


> Why should I have to pay for your crap channels that I hate.
> 
> /Benjamin


You don't have to, you can call D* and schedule an install. Or your local cable company if u like.


----------



## Guest

rbyers said:


> How about Dish having a Viacom package similar to HBO, Starz, etc. That way all you folks who want the Viacom junk can buy it and I don't have to be bothered with it.
> 
> All kidding aside, I'd like to see Dish use the bandwidth from the Viacom channels to improve PQ. I'll personally never miss any of these channels. Not one of them are on my channel list. Seriously, if Dish were to improve the PQ without Viacom he can keep my $2/month refund.


Very few people would agree with you because Viacom has the most watched cable channels.


----------



## rbyers

The Viacom channels may be heavily watched, but none of them require PQ, and I doubt that most Viacom viewers care about PQ.


----------



## Danny R

Well, after reading all the posts, I think I can safely say I'm standing by DISH on this one. I'll be missing some MTV channels, but its not like I can't live without them.

Simple fact of the matter is if not for Viacom rate increases, this would not be a problem. Viacom admits they want more money and aren't satisfied with their current paycheck. Doesn't Viacom make money from advertising? Seems like pure greed to try and stick it to the distributors, who have to pass it along to the consumers... without whom they have no business.

Rates have been rising continuously for years. Cheers for Charlie in trying to put the brakes on it.

If you feel like paying for Viacom, switch providers. When Viacom renegotiates their contracts you'll make up for it.


----------



## btbrossard

ypsiguy said:


> You don't have to, you can call D* and schedule an install. Or your local cable company if u like.


I find it funny that you don't mind Charlie removing some of the highest rated cable channels, yet if Charlie removed any of the programming you watch you would almost certainly throw a fit.

/Benjamin


----------



## JohnH

txcruiser said:


> I've been a Dish customer for 6 years. If Charlie doesn't give me a $5.99 monthly credit for not providing all my locals (like he does in markets where he can't provide ALL the channels due to various contractual issues) then I guess it's time to move on to Directv. Sorry Dish but a grand total of $2 a month doesn't cut it.


Where did you get your info. Charlie don't do that. He gives the same discount he is offering you. $1 for one missing network.


----------



## Neutron

JohnH said:


> Where did you get your info. Charlie don't do that. He gives the same discount he is offering you. $1 for one missing network.


Here's the difference though. If it was really $1 for one missing network then we should all be getting a 10-15 dollar discount, not $1 for the missing Viacom channels.


----------



## hpman247

Why are they still up. It's past midnight


----------



## JohnH

Neutron said:


> Here's the difference though. If it was really $1 for one missing network then we should all be getting a 10-15 dollar discount, not $1 for the missing Viacom channels.


You are trying to do the same thing Viacom is and that is lump the cable nets in with the CBS local channels. The post was entirely about the local channels.


----------



## JohnH

hpman247 said:


> Why are they still up. It's past midnight


It was mentioned several places that it would be midnight Pacific time. I don't think Charlie made that clear. Looks like we have almost 3 hours to go.


----------



## ypsiguy

btbrossard said:


> I find it funny that you don't mind Charlie removing some of the highest rated cable channels, yet if Charlie removed any of the programming you watch you would almost certainly throw a fit.
> 
> /Benjamin


Nope I'd just switch providers. I do it with credit cards and phone service.


----------



## Hoobastank

Hi,

New to the board here.

The Viacom takedown is disgusting on E*'s part. Like them or not, most of those channels are extremely popular, especially MTV and Nick. Since I watch Nick on a nightly basis, I for one will definitely change providers when that black screen comes up. 

I don't appreciate E*, or any company that depends on it's customers to survive, deciding what is right for me. I decide what is right for me and no one else. And unfortunate for E* in the end, I will decide to take my business elsewhere so I can continue to watch programming that i like. I suspect they may change their tune if they start receiving calls from customers to deactivate their subscription.

Even if they finally reach an agreement with Viacom a week after I cancel, I will still not regret it. As another poster stated, I do not want to be used as a pawn in their game. I'm sure E* realizes we have other choices when it comes to cable providers, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why they don't give a damned and continue to gamble their life blood away.

That's my 3 cents worth.


----------



## btbrossard

ypsiguy said:


> Nope I'd just switch providers. I do it with credit cards and phone service.


But you don't have hundreds if not thousands of dollars invested in equipment with either of those two services (or a contract, if your in one).

/Benjamin


----------



## newsub

btbrossard said:


> But you don't have hundreds if not thousands of dollars invested in equipment with either of those two services (or a contract, if your in one).
> 
> /Benjamin


What channel have they arranged to have the information on the viacom shutdown? Will it be channel 102 (currently not in use)? Or will they finally change the programming on dish fyi channel (which they just finally changed on the epg from remote control help to dish fyi even though the format changed in november)?Oh and did charlie address the fact that alot of people with contracts would want out of them if dish drops the viacom channels?


----------



## Chris Blount

A news release was just posted at the Dish web site:

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=dish&script=410&layout=-6&item_id=503189


----------



## btbrossard

newsub said:


> Oh and did charlie address the fact that alot of people with contracts would want out of them if dish drops the viacom channels?


You can buy your way out of the contract. I guess the most likely cost would be about $240-300.

However - I can't see a court upholding the contract if you made a good agument that Dish has fundamentally changed the service they provide (which in my mind they have).

Under the contract Dish could remove all the channels except BingoTV and the shopping channels (for example) and still charge you.

/Benjamin


----------



## Marcus S

Viacom's Demands Create Impasse in Negotiations For Rights to Carry Channels


----------



## newsub

btbrossard said:


> You can buy your way out of the contract. I guess the most likely cost would be about $240-300.
> 
> However - I can't see a court upholding the contract if you made a good agument that Dish has fundamentally changed the service they provide (which in my mind they have).
> 
> Under the contract Dish could remove all the channels except BingoTV and the shopping channels (for example) and still charge you.
> 
> /Benjamin


As I pointed out before though the contract I read said "as long as fair warning of channel changes was made you can't get out of the contract". Well I don't remember a fair warning being given to the subscribers. I guess I'll be calling dish network tomorrow to see what they tell me when I try to cancel my contract.


----------



## Art7220

Hey There:

You can still catch Viacom shows on the alternative Expressvu or Star Choice system. Now's the time to buy.

Nick shows can be found on Family, YTV and Treehouse TV.

Mon. Night RAW on Spike TV is available on TSN. I recorded it while watching the Chat.

Spike itself is available on Spike TV Canada, which is the same channel except for RAW blacked out.

Those systems have never had problems with pulling programming. Plus, you also get CBC, CTV, Global networks that DirecTV won't give you. And there's CBS Boston, which isn't affected by the dispute.

-A- We need more Canadian dish subs. in the US.


----------



## TNGTony

Press Release from E* a few minutes ago:
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?

ENGLEWOOD, Colo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 9, 2004--EchoStar Communications Corporation (NasdaqISH) confirmed today that Viacom Inc.'s demands for rate increases and other terms had left EchoStar's DISH Network satellite TV service with no choice other than to remove 16 of Viacom's owned-and-operated CBS local stations and 10 of its nationally distributed channels as of midnight (PT).

Among Viacom's strong-arm tactics is the demand that DISH Network carry Viacom-owned channels of little or no measurable appeal to viewers in exchange for the rights to carry the 16 owned-and-operated CBS stations. Viacom also threatened to withhold the Super Bowl from DISH Network customers until a federal judge intervened. EchoStar has challenged Viacom in court on these antitrust issues, noting that Viacom is leveraging its control of the public airwaves -- acquired by Viacom for free.

"DISH Network customers in the cities with CBS owned-and-operated stations are entitled to keep up with local news and events distributed over publicly owned airwaves, and Viacom is interfering with that right," said Charles Ergen, chairman and chief executive officer of EchoStar. "DISH Network will always have a place for CBS and we're willing to pay for retransmission rights, but Viacom is holding the public airwaves hostage, trying to extract concessions and higher rates on programming unrelated to CBS."

Viacom has asked for rate increases up to 40 percent over the length of the contract -- or nearly four times the rate of inflation. That demand potentially equates to hundreds of millions of dollars in payments by DISH Network, plus additional payments for additional channels that would offer little or no value to DISH Network's customers -- while saddling them with the costs. Viacom's demands for carriage of low-interest channels impede DISH Network's ability to provide new, independently owned channels with a broad appeal.

DISH Network is providing a $1 monthly credit to customers who lose CBS programming in the following markets where the stations are owned and operated by CBS: Austin, Boston, Baltimore, Chicago, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Denver, Detroit, Green Bay, Wis., Miami-Ft. Lauderdale, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, New York, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Salt Lake City and San Francisco.

Other channels affected by Viacom's unreasonable demands include BET, Comedy Central, MTV, MTV2, MTV Espanol, Nickelodeon, Nick Games & Sports, Noggin, VH1, VH1 Classic and CBS-HD East and West. Customers who had been receiving those channels on America's Top 60, America's Top 120, America's Top 180, America's Everything Pak, and DISH Latino Max will also receive a $1 monthly credit while the channels are unavailable.

Included in Viacom's negotiating tactics is a demand for DISH Network to renegotiate current agreements on other Viacom channels, allowing Viacom to require carriage and higher rates on those channels.

"Our goal is to remain the best value for our customers for the lowest price," said Ergen. "To do this, we need fair contracts with competitive pricing that allow DISH Network to select the channels most compatible with the interests of our customers."

DISH Network has been providing the Viacom channels since Jan. 7, 2004, under the terms of a U.S. District Court's temporary restraining order that was due to expire at midnight (PT) March 8, 2004.

DISH Network has reached a fair agreement for Viacom channels in the past, and DISH Network will continue to pursue negotiation so that it may broadcast all or most of those channels again.

See ya
Tony


----------



## dswallow

Charlie talks in percentages and vague figures; Viacom is saying 6 cents per subscriber for all the affected channels.

I'm wondering if DirecTV (and other cable companies) doesn't have a clause requiring Viacom provide them the "best rate offered to any customer" and if Echostar were to be given the channels at the price they're wanting them, Viacom would have to refund money to DirecTV (and possibly other recently negotiated cable contracts).

That could be a significant reason why Viacom would endure having those channels go dark on Dish Network. Because financially it would be a significant hit to them if they were to compromise.

How many customers would Dish Network have to lose before it'd have been cheaper for them to have paid what Viacom was asking? Maybe ~300,000 if the $0.06 figure is accurate?

In theory, based on market coverage of the CBS-owned TV stations, this could impact as many as 30% of Dish's roughly 9,000,000 subscribers. So there's perhaps 3,000,000 subscribers who might choose to go elsewhere if these stations remain unavailable. If Viacom channels remained unavailable for 6 months, how many people when faced with an alternative that provides them all their channels would choose to stick with Dish Network and not get those channels?

Is there any leverage with Viacom at all? A Dish Network subscriber losing the channels is not going to be counted in their ratings, so what does it matter to Viacom at that point? But a Dish Network subscriber who is upset over the loss of the channels is a subscriber at risk to Dish Network, so it's Dish Network who is facing the pressure. And ultimately it will be Dish Network that will be paying what Viacom wants.

It's all only a numbers game to both sides.


----------



## ypsiguy

Art7220 said:


> Hey There:
> 
> You can still catch Viacom shows on the alternative Expressvu or Star Choice system. Now's the time to buy.
> 
> Nick shows can be found on Family, YTV and Treehouse TV.
> 
> Mon. Night RAW on Spike TV is available on TSN. I recorded it while watching the Chat.
> 
> Spike itself is available on Spike TV Canada, which is the same channel except for RAW blacked out.
> 
> Those systems have never had problems with pulling programming. Plus, you also get CBC, CTV, Global networks that DirecTV won't give you. And there's CBS Boston, which isn't affected by the dispute.
> 
> -A- We need more Canadian dish subs. in the US.


If I had a clear shot at 91.0 deg for Nimiq1 I would signup in a heartbeat. Maybe Charlie has plans to go to those Canadian channels? Hmmm...


----------



## James Long

Marcus K said:


> These public pissing contests between huge companies is so pathetic and that's really all this boils down to.


So if it is a contest, by leaving E* people are handing Viacom a victory. And for no good reason.

The numbers are there to support the claims. Even Viacoms figures, which claim the increase is only 6c per month per customer, are nasty (because they are forgetting the "per year").
6c per month for 9 million customers is $540,000 per month, 6.48 million per year. Not a bad increase. Reports are that Viacom initially wanted 7% and now will settle for 5%. IF that 6.48 million reflects a 5% increase that means E* is currently paying 129.6 million per year.

But Viacom wants an ANNUAL increase ... so every year they get "6c more per customer" on top of the "6c more per customer" they got in previous years. That adds up! With a 5% increase per year, this is what the figures would look like:
2003 - $129.60 million (which, BTW, would be $1.20 per month per customer)
2004 - $138.08 million (5% more than 2003)
2005 - $142.88 million (10% more than 2003)
2006 - $150.03 million (16% more than 2003)
2007 - $157.53 million (22% more than 2003)
2008 - $165.41 million (28% more than 2003)
2009 - $173.68 million (34% more than 2003)
2010 - $182.36 million (41% more than 2003)

I've gone out to seven years to get to the 40% increase "over a period of years" Charlie is quoted as saying. With a 7% per year increase, 40% can be done in only five years.

And, as noted, based on Viacom's figures E* is only paying $1.20 per customer for the channels. Offering $1 off because the channels are gone is simply refunding the money they were going to pass through. Plus E* will be crediting a SECOND dollar for LIL customers who lose a Viacom CBS. There is no reason for E* to refund more than they are paying for the channels.

As noted. Viacom thinks that 6c is small potatoes. If so, why ask? Why lose 9 million viewers over 6c? Because Viacom is stretching the truth. It isn't about 6c -- it is about $103 million dollars over the next five years. And they want it.

JL


----------



## dswallow

justalurker said:


> As noted. Viacom thinks that 6c is small potatoes. If so, why ask? Why lose 9 million viewers over 6c? Because Viacom is stretching the truth. It isn't about 6c -- it is about $103 million dollars over the next five years. And they want it.


Read a bit between the lines. Viacom mentioned Dish Networks recent programming price increases. The 5% (or 7%) Viacom is asking for seems to be a smaller percentage than the increases subscribers just had to pay.

So who's getting that extra money now?


----------



## James Long

Art7220 said:


> Spike TV


No illegal grey or black systems needed. SpikeTV remains as the contract has not expired.

JL


----------



## James Long

dswallow said:


> Read a bit between the lines. Viacom mentioned Dish Networks recent programming price increases. The 5% (or 7%) Viacom is asking for seems to be a smaller percentage than the increases subscribers just had to pay.
> 
> So who's getting that extra money now?


Who said it was extra? E* lauched a satellite and dozens of new markets last year. Programming is not the only expense of a satellite provider! Plus, as expected, Viacom overstated the increase. AT60 & plus subscribers got no increase. AT120 subscribers got a 1c increase only if they didn't subscribe to locals. ($1 if no locals.) AT180 + Locals subscribers got a $1.01 increase. Note we are nowhere near the $3 increase that Viacom states.

Some customers saw a $3 increase ... but they were the ones at the top that subscribe to everything, not the common customer. Viacom makes it sound like it was an across the board increase. It wasn't.

My AT120 package will drop to 127 channels tonight. AT60 drops to 66, and AT180 drops to 179 ... (the only one to drop through the name). There is plenty else on.

JL


----------



## ypsiguy

dswallow said:


> Read a bit between the lines. Viacom mentioned Dish Networks recent programming price increases. The 5% (or 7%) Viacom is asking for seems to be a smaller percentage than the increases subscribers just had to pay.
> 
> So who's getting that extra money now?


I like how Viacon quotes the AEP (everything) pack's increase only, the largest increase. No mention that he's holding the line on AT60 of course.


----------



## manicd

I am glad that Charlie is sticking to his guns and protecting our pockets. I was only watchin a couple of he affected channels, but enough is enough. 

What we really need is a LAW that requires that all channels be sold on a "a la carte" basis. That way you only pay for the actual channels you want to watch and not every two bit channel that comes along! Then a lot of marginal channels can go bye bye! Let the consumer decide what is really worth watching!

Is there any chance the mods can set up a poll to see (non-scientific or course) how many people are behind Charlie and how many people want to be shafted by Viacom and have Charlie lie down for Viacom to roll over???


----------



## TNGTony

Reuters:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/breaking/breakingnewsarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20040309&ID=3470815

Viacom will pull 10 of its nationally distributed stations such as MTV, Nickelodeon and CBS in 16 local markets and from EchoStar's satellite service as of midnight Pacific Time tonight, as the two companies failed to come to an agreement over program pricing EchoStar said.

I only posted this because this is the first time I see it as Viacom pulling the stations (which is technically correct) rather than E*. E isn't yanking the stations...viacom is yanking them because they aren't getting enough money.

See ya
Tony


----------



## Art7220

ypsiguy said:


> If I had a clear shot at 91.0 deg for Nimiq1 I would signup in a heartbeat. Maybe Charlie has plans to go to those Canadian channels? Hmmm...


Yeah, that would be nice. Or at least interesting. If the Canadian cable systems are lobbying for HBO up there, we could do the same here. But, they would only be used to provide backup programming due to outrageous charges from the Viacoms & Disneys. Like when NBC used to show Canadian Football when the NFL went on strike in the 80s.

There'll be a riot going on. Or more likely, the house clearing of the Republicans from office. If it isn't the unregulated media companies, it's something else.



justalurker said:


> ...SpikeTV remains as the contract has not expired.


But I thought I heard Spike wasn't grouped in with those other channels due to be taken off, but then on RAW tonight, they were running the crawler that we've seen on the other Viacoms. On TSN no less. I'm sure DN is still putting the black bar over it.
-A-


----------



## ypsiguy

manicd said:


> I am glad that Charlie is sticking to his guns and protecting our pockets. I was only watchin a couple of he affected channels, but enough is enough.
> 
> What we really need is a LAW that requires that all channels be sold on a "a la carte" basis. That way you only pay for the actual channels you want to watch and not every two bit channel that comes along! Then a lot of marginal channels can go bye bye! Let the consumer decide what is really worth watching!
> 
> Is there any chance the mods can set up a poll to see (non-scientific or course) how many people are behind Charlie and how many people want to be shafted by Viacom and have Charlie lie down for Viacom to roll over???


Amen...Wisdom is spoken here


----------



## ypsiguy

Art7220 said:


> Yeah, that would be nice. Or at least interesting. If the Canadian cable systems are lobbying for HBO up there, we could do the same here. But, they would only be used to provide backup programming due to outrageous charges from the Viacoms & Disneys. Like when NBC used to show Canadian Football when the NFL went on strike in the 80s.
> 
> There'll be a riot going on. Or more likely, the house clearing of the Republicans from office. If it isn't the unregulated media companies, it's something else.
> 
> But I thought I heard Spike wasn't grouped in with those other channels due to be taken off, but then on RAW tonight, they were running the crawler that we've seen on the other Viacoms. On TSN no less. I'm sure DN is still putting the black bar over it.
> -A-


Yup Viacon hitting Spike pretty heavy right now. 2 messages in last 10 min
and one big black "fear" screen. I think Viacon is scared, as their advertisers will scream big time. I really hope Charlie pulls the plug on 'em now.


----------



## DChristmann

I'm a DirecTV subscriber now, but I was a DISH subscriber until October. (Mostly because of TiVo, BTW.)

If I were still an E* subscriber, then I'd be with Charlie Ergen on this issue. Yeah, my wife and I would miss some programs on the local CBS and UPN affiliates (KTVT and KTXA, which are both owned and operated by Viacom), but I'd sure rather miss those for a few days than to have "Cheap Charlie" capitulate to Viacom on this. His capitulation would mean money out of my pocket.

He's got a point. Viacom is telling him, "You don't get our CBS and UPN affiliates unless you also pay for Nicktoons and another channel or two that none of your customers has really been asking for. And oh yeah, in addition to making you pay for stuff you don't really want in order to get the stuff you do want, we're also going to be charging you more for the stuff you do want."

I'm sorry, but that's bull, and you and I wouldn't stand for it if somebody were trying to foist it on us, so why should Charlie Ergen? After all, the money would be coming out of your pocket eventually.

And even though this doesn't affect me personally, I hope that he wins this battle, because Viacom's gotta negotiate with DirecTV again before too long, and I don't want them getting the idea that it's open season on my wallet.


----------



## V-Train

dswallow said:


> Read a bit between the lines. Viacom mentioned Dish Networks recent programming price increases. The 5% (or 7%) Viacom is asking for seems to be a smaller percentage than the increases subscribers just had to pay.
> 
> So who's getting that extra money now?


Instead of saying what it "seems" to be, why don't you make a little bit of effort instead and do the math? The $3 increase Viacom keeps yapping about is on a package that is listed on Dish's website as costing $78. I'm assuming that includes the increase. So, it was percentage of $75 is $3? 4%. If you do the math on the other increases, you will see they are less.

So the most a Dish subscriber has to pay more is 4%, which includes all the increases of the non-Viacom programming Dish offers, plus all the channels Dish has added in the last year or so, and Sirius radio that will be added in June. So tell me, where does the extra 5% Viacom wants all for itself come from? Clearly not from the increases Dish made. I'm not seeing any "extra money" from the price increase, and if E* "gives in," prices are going to rise. Again. JUST for Viacom.


----------



## uncdanwrong

I don't understand people who think E* is trying to screw them. Viacom is the one doing the screwing by trying to extort money!


----------



## James Long

Art7220 said:


> But I thought I heard Spike wasn't grouped in with those other channels due to be taken off,


Viacom is spamming ALL of their cable channels --- on all cable and satellite systems in the US and Canada (for those that use the US feed).

Only the 10 will go away. E* still has a contract for the others.

Bye Bye:
Local Viacom CBS - plus BET, Comedy Central, MTV, MTV2, MTV Espanol, Nickelodeon, Nick Games & Sports, Noggin, VH1, VH1 Classic and CBS-HD East and West.

JL


----------



## Mainstreet

It's kind of humorous. The last show on Nick at Nite before the E* blackout is Rosanne, where they are talking about how great having a satellite dish is. lol

15 minutes til showtime!


----------



## JohnH

The just blocked another crawl on Comedy Central.


----------



## ypsiguy

If anyone is interested in boycotting Viacom, there is a list of the companies at www.viacom.com. The icon for each business streams past, I will be boycotting Blockbuster until we get a fair contract.


----------



## JohnH

They missed the crawl on Nickelodeon.


----------



## torque91

Has anyone seen the Spongebob message?
It shows a clip of Spongebob saying "Can I have everyone's attention?!"
Then the usual "Dish Network wants to remove these channels" scroll.
Ending with Spongebob walking out the door saying "Try not to have too much fun without me."

I thought that was very childish. I figured only MTV had a bunch of teenagers running the place. Must be the case for all of Viacom.


----------



## Mainstreet

JohnH said:


> They missed the crawl on Nickelodeon.


I noticed that. I think that maybe with only 5 minutes left before blackout, they are working on getting the slates ready to go.


----------



## Mainstreet

And there it is!!!!!



> DISH Network sincerely regrets that this channel, owned and operated by Viacom, is currently unavailable. Viacom  has demanded rate increases which are unreasonable and would contribute to a higher monthly bill for you. We continually strive to control costs on behalf of our customers and are hopeful that this matter will be resolved quickly.
> 
> For More Information, see
> www.dishnetwork.com/programming or
> call 888-200-0451


----------



## Charles Oliva

Cypress Hill song ends on MTV and then the slate comes up


----------



## ypsiguy

MTV...Get off the air...NOW LOL


----------



## MrAkai

POP GOES THE VIACOM.

And just as Drew was coming on stage on Letterman.


----------



## Charles Oliva

MTV2 is completely gone.


----------



## Neutron

How many of us stayed up to see the plug being pulled?


----------



## Charles Oliva

10pm here.


----------



## Mainstreet

If you press the "info" button, it says, "DISH Network sincerely regrets that Nickelodeon is currently unavailable. Register your complaint: Viacom, 212-258-6000/MTV Networks, 212-258-8000"


----------



## btbrossard

My distant CBS nets are also gone- (Edit - The channel labels and numbers changed. I still have them, I just did not know where to look  )

So - I pay $3 for CBS Chicago and LA and get $1 in return. Sounds good to me.

Thank you, Charlie!

/Benjamin


----------



## nicepants

Just as I predicted...Viacom is now running spots talking about dish. I guess they realized the crawls weren't being seen. Dish wasn't able to block these...luckily Viacom didn't think of it till the very end.

http://www.jasonskidmore.com/viacomsux/

WMV for windows users
MPEG-1 for everyone else


----------



## torque91

TV Land is apparently unaffected. Thing is, they kept showing a screen all night stating that TV Land is no longer available on Dish Network and is only available on cable and Direct TV. Viacom doesn't even know what's going on.


----------



## kstuart

Charles Oliva said:


> MTV2 is completely gone.


Nick GAS is completely gone (meaning no longer in the Guide).

Some channels are gone, and some have slates - interesting.

I wonder if this means that E* doesn't plan to renew those channels even if there is a settlement?


----------



## mattb

MTV is still running the craws on the MTV-E feed, I am watching it on the local (insight (crap) cable system... they have the crawls in big bold white letters saying how AWEFUL Dish is for dropping the channels... and that Dish customers arre going to loose the channels because E is pulling them.. What a lie....

It's more like Viacom is pulling the programming from E* 

Glad charlie didnt cave in this time.


----------



## zman977

kstuart said:


> Nick GAS is completely gone (meaning no longer in the Guide).
> 
> Some channels are gone, and some have slates - interesting.
> 
> I wonder if this means that E* doesn't plan to renew those channels even if there is a settlement?


I noticed "Spike Tv" was still on the air a couple of minutes past two am central time.


----------



## Hoobastank

D* should be picking up some business in the next few days


----------



## kstuart

btbrossard said:


> My distant CBS nets are also gone-
> 
> So - I pay $3 for CBS Chicago and LA and get $1 in return. Sounds good to me.
> 
> Thank you, Charlie!
> 
> /Benjamin


Ben - try channel 8489.


----------



## Mainstreet

zman977 said:


> I noticed "Spike Tv" was still on the air a couple of minutes past two am central time.


Spike TV is not one of the affected channels.

These are the only ones other than CBS:

BET - Comedy Central - MTV - MTV2
Nick Games & Sports
Nickelodeon/Nick at Night (East and West)
NOGGIN - VH1 - VH1 Classic


----------



## James Long

btbrossard said:


> My distant CBS nets are also gone-
> So - I pay $3 for CBS Chicago and LA and get $1 in return. Sounds good to me.


Check the 250 series channels ... perhaps by morning they will have all the tweaks working.

It's easier to turn them all off at the legal moment, then restore those who still qualify, than try to kill only the unqualified. TECHNICALLY speaking, one minute of air to a non-distant qualified person would be a violation of law.

JL


----------



## Guest

You should all know that Viacom has some of the lowest rates off all for its channels. Companies like News Corp and Tuner charge a lot more money for their channels then does Viacom does. I am willing to bet that you pay over twice as much for Turner channels as you do for Viacom ones.


----------



## btbrossard

kstuart said:


> Ben - try channel 8489.


I have video on that channel - No program info of any kind. The label says CHCBS, so I guess it's the right channel. Thanks-

I think that is is clever that Charlie has removed a few of the less know channels from the guide. Now when people try and count the number of channels they are missing, it will apear that they did not loose so many.

/Benjamin


----------



## kstuart

Nibiru said:


> You should all know that Viacom has some of the lowest rates off all for its channels. Companies like News Corp and Tuner charge a lot more money for their channels then does Viacom does. I am willing to bet that you pay over twice as much for Turner channels as you do for Viacom ones.


All of the Viacom channels aren't worth half of what "TCM" is worth by itself.

Even Sky (UK DBS system) carries TCM...


----------



## James Long

Nibiru said:


> You should all know that Viacom has some of the lowest rates off all for its channels. Companies like News Corp and Tuner charge a lot more money for their channels then does Viacom does. I am willing to bet that you pay over twice as much for Turner channels as you do for Viacom ones.


Easy bet, as you have no proof either way. "Turner" channels are worth more anyways.

JL


----------



## djtowle

Viacoms site claims they are #1 for advertising, I wonder if that is still true without Dishnet viewers? have a look at there site and the bragging they do about taking over the world. :grrr: 

I think what we all need to do is send a letter to the FCC, and our Congressmen pointing out that this is what happens when they allow companies (esp media) to own too much of the pie. They should definately impose some strict limits on number of stations owned by a single company. And I feel pretty strongly that content providers should have even stricter rules on owning distribution systems. ie if viacom owned the biggest cable network in the company. The abusse potential would be tremendous. 


I also don't understand why we OR dish should pay a CENT for commercial television. I can see us paying dish to get a brodcast via their satellite. But stations used to/still do pay for their own transmitters out of advertising dollars. want more dollars, get more viewers, buy a bigger transmitter. So why are we PAYING just for the Possibility to watch commercial television? I say possibility because you can't watch more then one at a time. I could go several months without ever watching a viacom station. 

:nono2:


----------



## James Long

btbrossard said:


> I think that is is clever that Charlie has removed a few of the less know channels from the guide. Now when people try and count the number of channels they are missing, it will apear that they did not lose so many.


There are only 10 national channels gone plus one more (CBS local) in O&O markets. CBS-HD is also gone as it was offered under a special deal.

Distants will remain ... and perhaps replace locals for those who qualify.

They had to kill them at first because the people living in the home DMA need to see the "goodbye" while qualified people outside need to see the channel. Before both types of people could watch the same feed.

JL


----------



## James Long

I just saw a TVLand Slide "Only on DirecTV or cable" ... on my dish network subscription. Stupid Viacom spreading lies.

E* needs to run a crawl on TV Land and the other keeper channels. To set tre record STRAIGHT!

JL


----------



## Joe Capitano

Denver Distant Subs: go to ch. 8199 for KCNC.
New York Distant remains in place.

(But we still feel your pain, folks.)


----------



## kstuart

The channels removed from the Guide are:

- MTV2
- VH1 Classic
- Nick GAS
- Noggin

The implication to me is that Dish not only doesn't want the new Viacom channels, they also don't want to renew those 4 either.


----------



## JohnH

The following 4 CBS Distants have been assigned the following new channel numbers:

New York 253 CBSNY

Los Angeles 254 CBSLA

Denver 8199 CBSDN

Chicago 8489 CBSCH


----------



## uncdanwrong

Let's put things in perspective. Viacom is asking for over a half Billion dollars in new fees. For those of you who have complaints about picture quality, who who want more HD, or live in the 100 cities that don't have locals up, that's enough for a couple of new satellites with change left over.


----------



## TNGTony

From www.dishchannelchart.com

The Viacom Dispute hit the fan at 3am Eastern (Midnight Pacific). Stations labeled Viacom Dispute are not available to subscribers at this time. See Echostar's press release http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=dish&script=410&layout=-6&item_id=503189
At 3am on the dot the following channels went to a slate telling people everything about the Viacom Dispute: 107, 124, 160, 162, 169, 170, 171
VHI Classic no longer in the EPG (163)
Noggin No longer in the EPG (169)
MTV 2 No longer in EPG (161)
Some reports CBS East and West 243 and 244 no longer in the EPG...personally verify that CBS W is gone from my guide CBS E is still there
WCBS and KCBS at 8101 and 8001 now have "info screens".

See ya
Tony


----------



## ck33

Something of interest to note (I apologize if this was previously mentioned):

Viacom had a snippet during a commercial on TVLAND that read something to the effect of:

TVLAND is no longer available on DISH network. It is only available on DIRECTV and Cable.

Then the commercial went over and Bewitched came on.


----------



## Darkman

tvland still working for now


----------



## ypsiguy

I hope Charlie starts to get new channels soon to replace them. That way there will be less room for Viacon's crap on the system. The longer Viacon waits the less channels they will get to have if they return.


----------



## mattb

durning Promos for MTV shows this week such as real world promo at the end it sayz "Real world on MTV now only on Cable and Direct TV" 

(I am watching MTV on the local cable system)


----------



## Mike Richardson

kstuart said:


> The channels removed from the Guide are:
> 
> - MTV2
> - VH1 Classic
> - Nick GAS
> - Noggin
> 
> The implication to me is that Dish not only doesn't want the new Viacom channels, they also don't want to renew those 4 either.


That would suck to remove those. No, I think they took them out of the guide so it didnt look like so many left.

Also, it now seems some AT180 and AT120 channels are MOVING DOWN To AT60. Reports are in that WAM and Fuse are now available on AT60 at least temporarily for some subs.

Also unrelated but for some reason I am getting FOX NY and FOX LA.


----------



## TNGTony

Channels 240, 250, 7999, 9399 are the source channels for all the "info screens" on all the Viacom Dispute channels. The info slate is on 119° so all the channels that were/are (but hidden) at 110° in dispute no longer show on the EPG

See ya
Tony


----------



## Goodfella

Play games with someone else's dime and time. I don't plan to be your pawn pal. $100 per month from me and 4 others that I know of will be out the door in a couple days. $6000 a year that I know of off the top of my head, out the door. (no I won't let it hit me in the ass). Complete BS. Thanks for the heads up. Good luck collecting broken contracts and the like.
I'd also love to see the attitudes these folks here who "could give a shi* about the channels affected" now if *their* fav channels were gone.

This will hurt DISH beyond anything you've imagined. Thanks for the $2 too, almost makes up for the $3 increase I got last week before you dropped channels. You're playing with fire Charles. Smell the smoke now.


----------



## Mike Richardson

REPORTS IN That boomerang is now available on AT120 maybe even AT60


----------



## Hoobastank

we subscribe to cbs-w, and still have it, but we are now getting cbs east (243). weird.


----------



## torque91

I wonder what's in this for us AT180 customers. HBO-HD would be nice


----------



## Charles Oliva

Funny, My CBS still show up as 243 and 244


----------



## Frostilicus

I'm at work or i'd check myself, but if Distant CBS is still up, does that mean distant CBS-HD is still up?


----------



## Melishark

Goodfella said:


> Play games with someone else's dime and time. I don't plan to be your pawn pal. $100 per month from me and 4 others that I know of will be out the door in a couple days. $6000 a year that I know of off the top of my head, out the door. (no I won't let it hit me in the ass). Complete BS. Thanks for the heads up. Good luck collecting broken contracts and the like.
> I'd also love to see the attitudes these folks here who "could give a shi* about the channels affected" now if *their* fav channels were gone.
> 
> This will hurt DISH beyond anything you've imagined. Thanks for the $2 too, almost makes up for the $3 increase I got last week before you dropped channels. You're playing with fire Charles. Smell the smoke now.


 ** I agree ! Make that 5 others that you know of !!

For some of us out here .. those ARE our favorite channels. I can't believe they didn't give us a choice at all. I'm all for standing up for what you believe in but I am also smart enough to know that sometimes you're forced to suck it up and live with the hand you're dealt.

DishNetwork is going to lose a lot of customers over this if they don't resolve it very soon. 

I'll bet the Direct TV CEO is sleeping well tonight.


----------



## Hoobastank

Melishark said:


> ** I agree ! Make that 5 others that you know of !!
> 
> For some of us out here .. those ARE our favorite channels. I can't believe they didn't give us a choice at all. I'm all for standing up for what you believe in but I am also smart enough to know that sometimes you're forced to suck it up and live with the hand you're dealt.
> 
> DishNetwork is going to lose a lot of customers over this if they don't resolve it very soon.
> 
> I'll bet the Direct TV CEO is sleeping well tonight.


Agree 100% also. People WILL walk


----------



## James Long

Melishark said:


> I can't believe they didn't give us a choice at all.


What do you expect? An election complete with hanging chads? :lol:

Charlie gave us a choice tonight during the Charlie Chat. The names of other providers. E* will continue to strive to be the best value.

JL


----------



## ck33

> REPORTS IN That boomerang is now available on AT120 maybe even AT60


I have AT120, and boomerang is still locked out, but WAM is unlocked.


----------



## ypsiguy

torque91 said:


> I wonder what's in this for us AT180 customers. HBO-HD would be nice


Free Showtime, too hehehehe


----------



## JohnH

TNGTony said:


> Channels 240, 250, 7999, 9399 are the source channels for all the "info screens" on all the Viacom Dispute channels. The info slate is on 119° so all the channels that were/are (but hidden) at 110° in dispute no longer show on the EPG
> 
> See ya
> Tony


Not exactly correct. A guess would place the number of different slates at as many as 6.
The slates for the CBS Locals are different than the slates for the Viacom cable channels and a guess would place the slates for Distants at 1 per.


----------



## Melishark

justalurker said:


> What do you expect? An election complete with hanging chads? :lol:
> 
> Charlie gave us a choice tonight during the Charlie Chat. The names of other providers. E* will continue to strive to be the best value.
> 
> JL


 LOL sure -- sounds good to me. 

As for his telling us where else we could go .. wasn't that sweet of him. Didn't make me feel any better at all. In fact, he pretty much showed how much he couldn't care less about his customers.

You'd think he didn't care that without us he gets no weekly pay check.


----------



## ypsiguy

I suspect PBS Kids will want one of those channels VERY quickly. I hope they get the old Nick GAS channel. I also bet some ExpressVu Canadian channels will want aboard fairly quickly as well.


----------



## JohnH

There are indications that Fuse, Toon Disney and WAM! may be available to some lower package subscribers. Perhaps all subscribers


----------



## Mike Richardson

JohnH said:


> There are indications that Fuse, Toon Disney and WAM! may be available to some lower package subscribers.


Boomerang is also on for some AT120 subs.


----------



## James Long

Melishark said:


> You'd think he didn't care that without us he gets no weekly pay check.


Leave. Go for it. He'll still get his check next week.

And we will get better channels. Watch for Goodlife TV, Oxygen, PBS Kids. Negotiations will continue with Viacom, but negotiations can easily go forward with other providers leaving Viacom's channels SOL. :lol:

There are other channels than Viacom's. Many are BETTER.

JL


----------



## ypsiguy

Melishark said:


> LOL sure -- sounds good to me.
> 
> As for his telling us where else we could go .. wasn't that sweet of him. Didn't make me feel any better at all. In fact, he pretty much showed how much he couldn't care less about his customers.
> 
> You'd think he didn't care that without us he gets no weekly pay check.


He was just being honest, and not BS'ing us. If people are around just for the Viacom's, they're gonna leave or at least shop around. Good luck to all who want to leave, digital cable is $70+ a month in my area. That's because Comcrap caves into programmers and just passes the cost along. As far as D*, Rupert Murdoch can kiss my rear-end.


----------



## TNGTony

John...thanks. I meant the "general channels". Thanks for the correction

The latest from www.dishchannelchart.com
The Viacom Dispute hit the fan at 3am Eastern (Midnight Pacific). Stations labeled Viacom Dispute are not available to subscribers at this time. See Echostar's press release http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=dish&script=410&layout=-6&item_id=503189
At 3am on the dot the following channels went to a slate telling people everything about the Viacom Dispute: 107, 124, 160, 162, 169, 170, 171
VHI Classic no longer in the EPG (163)
Noggin No longer in the EPG (169)
MTV 2 No longer in EPG (161)
Nick GAS no longer in EPG (177)
Some reports CBS East and West 243 and 244 no longer in the EPG...personally verify that CBS W is gone from my guide CBS E is still there
WCBS and KCBS at 8101 and 8001 now have "info screens".
MTV Español no longer in EPG
Channels 240, 250, 7999, 9399 are the source channels for all the "info screens" on all the Viacom Dispute channels. The info slate is on 119° so all the channels that were/are (but hidden) at 110° in dispute no longer show on the EPG. This only applies to the General Interest channels and not the locals.
KCBS-TV2 8001 moved from Tp* 15 at 119 to Tp* 4 at 119 (ANON)
WWJ-TV62 8031 moved from Tp* 10s10 Ohio Beam at 110 to Tp* 15 at 110 (ANON)
WCBS-TV2 8101 moved from Tp* 20 at 119 to Tp* 18 at 119 (ANON)
KCNC-TV4 8201 moved from Tp* 14 at 110 to Tp* 15 at 110 (ANON)
WBBM-TV2 8491 moved from Tp* 20 at 110 to Tp* 1 at 110 (ANON)
Channel 8489 which is WBBM Chicago is now available to all distant network CBS subscribers but it is not available to Local Chicago subs that are predicted to receive a grade B signal or better from WBBN's tower. (ANON)
Channel 8199 which is KCNC Denver is now available to all distant network CBS subscribers but it is not available to Local Chicago subs that are predicted to receive a grade B signal or better from KCNC's tower. (ANON)

OTHER UNCORROBERATED REPORTS:
FUSE TDISN, and WAM are now Free to Air (FTA)...not necessarily on Dish Network receivers

Reports that Boomerang is available to AT60

Reports that distant CBS turned off (Happened to me with West Coast)
See ya
Tony


----------



## Melishark

justalurker said:


> Leave. Go for it. He'll still get his check next week.
> 
> JL


 Oh alright ... I'm gone then. Thanks for the kick in the butt. :sure:

FYOLNJ :lol:


----------



## Goodfella

justalurker said:


> And we will get better channels. Watch for Goodlife TV, Oxygen, PBS Kids.


You're not serious? You won't fill the void. Deny it all you want, many of the stations that are gone are *very * popular. You know it.


----------



## JohnH

Mike Richardson said:


> Boomerang is also on for some AT120 subs.


This is likely a "Fluke" as it is not on here and there is no indication of a status change in the system.


----------



## Guest

Melishark said:


> LOL sure -- sounds good to me.
> 
> As for his telling us where else we could go .. wasn't that sweet of him. Didn't make me feel any better at all. In fact, he pretty much showed how much he couldn't care less about his customers.
> 
> You'd think he didn't care that without us he gets no weekly pay check.


Charlie does care about the customers. That is why he refuses to raise YOUR rates even at the cost of a few channels. Yes, some customers would be willing to pay anything but the majority would do not want to pay more. Charlie expects a level of loyalty from his customers for continually fighting for YOUR prices. In five years Charlie has raised no more than a few dollars on his packages even though employment and technical and benefit costs continue to go up. If you aren't loyal to Echostar, why should Echostar be loyal to you? He simply showed you your options and said he wouldn't be offended if you took them. He understands you don't want to lose your channels but more customers don't want a rate increase and to pay what ViaComm is asking will raise each package almost $10 per month. YES, that much! No single company should have that much control over Echostar's prices, not Direct, not ViaComm, not anyone. Charlie does care and he is protecting YOU. Charlie has won every single time he has been backed into a corner. Have some faith or go elsewhere. He said it now I am saying it. It's that simple.

And for those of you who are D* customers, Rupert does NOT care about his customers. Yes, he signed the same deal Charlie is rejecting and Rupert will be raising his package prices. You don't think so now, but wait and see. As for cable, they always raise their prices so those of you who pay for that can just expect more of the same.

Cheers!


----------



## ck33

> As for his telling us where else we could go .. wasn't that sweet of him. Didn't make me feel any better at all. In fact, he pretty much showed how much he couldn't care less about his customers.


I agree with justalurker, ypsiguy, and Crazy.

I look at it like this - if your mind was made up to the point that when the Viacom channels went dark on Dish, you would change providers (be it D* or Cable), and you felt that strongly about the situation, what else could he do other than support your decision to leave? It seems that Charlie is not going to cave into the Viacom deal, since he feels the rate increases would be unreasonable. You have to do what you feel is right, and if that means switching providers, then so be it.

It ought to be interesting to see what happens. He said something on 101 about getting GAC. Its still red on my EPG.

--CK


----------



## dswallow

Crazy said:


> In five years Charlie has raised no more than a few dollars on his packages even though employment and technical and benefit costs continue to go up.


History of Rate Increases on Dish: http://ekb.dbstalk.com/17



Crazy said:


> ... and to pay what ViaComm is asking will raise each package almost $10 per month.


Bull/Baloney/Nonsense/The Sky is Falling/Living up to your nickname?/Prove It




Crazy said:


> And for those of you who are D* customers, Rupert does NOT care about his customers. Yes, he signed the same deal Charlie is rejecting and Rupert will be raising his package prices. You don't think so now, but wait and see. As for cable, they always raise their prices so those of you who pay for that can just expect more of the same.


In May 2001 I was paying $82.99 for Total Choice Platinum + $5.99 for local channels.

In March 2004 I'm paying $87.99 for Total Choice Premier w/Local Channels.

In almost 3 years, I've had a net decrease in my DirecTV rates of $0.99.

In January 1995 I paid $59.97 to DirecTV and $34.95 to USSB for service. I only had one receiver, so there was nothing else on those bills (though I only have record of the payments, not the copies of the bills anymore). That was $94.92. No local channels. And far fewer channels than are available today.

*Over 9 years, my monthly bill for DirecTV programming has decreased $6.93 or 7.3%.* And that's for the top packages. (And yes, I have more receivers today than then. So I'm not counting receiver mirroring fees in this. And I'm not comparing the HD package cost now since it wasn't available then.)

So if need be, DirecTV can raise rates $6.93 plus the rate of inflation over those 9 years on the original monthly $94.92 and I still wouldn't have room to complain.


----------



## Melishark

Crazy said:


> Charlie does care about the customers. That is why he refuses to raise YOUR rates even at the cost of a few channels. Cheers!


 Ok so then seriously ... think about this for a minute ...

If Dish loses customers -- do you really think your rate won't increase ?

Come on now. I own a business myself and my customs are my life ! I live to make THEM happy so I earn money to pay my bills.

If people start leaving DISH ... the rates WILL go up to fill the void.

Just being honest ... it's a fact of life. :nono2:


----------



## Melishark

dswallow said:


> History of Rate Increases on Dish: http://ekb.dbstalk.com/17


 WHOA !!! That was a real eye opener. Thanks for the link. :eek2:


----------



## jackhammer

This is no different then the oil companies these cable companies continue to gouge the public for rate increases and people continue to pay for it 

6 cents is 6 cents think about everything you purchase day in and day out and add another 6 cents to everything you buy utilities, gas, food, ect.

cable company rate increases are getting out of hand you have a 5% increase in cable rates and yet you get a 3% cost of living increase something has to give

if viacom feels they have to raise their rates and and use extortion to get it done so be it

somethings like gas we have to pay it just to get back and forth to work but i think ecostar is right on this one and i am glad they are standing up

if i dont get these CBS channels back so be it i wont lose any sleep over it i will just find more things to do with family and spend more quality time outside


----------



## Guest

bcw said:


> It's just TV. The sun would still rise tomorrow if everyone lost all their TV. If TV is your only reason for living........


Hey, if your paying hard earned money for channels you expected to have, it is a big deal. When you are cheated, it is a big deal. It's not about tv, its about two corporations robbing the average customer.


----------



## Guest

Melishark said:


> Ok so then seriously ... think about this for a minute ...
> 
> If Dish loses customers -- do you really think your rate won't increase ?
> 
> Come on now. I own a business myself and my customs are my life ! I live to make THEM happy so I earn money to pay my bills.
> 
> If people start leaving DISH ... the rates WILL go up to fill the void.
> 
> Just being honest ... it's a fact of life. :nono2:


While I agree that is a very definite possibility, I was in the room where the button was pushed this morning. Charlie's approval ratings went from 4% to 40% after the Charlie Chat. I don't believe E* is going to lose enough customers over the loss of 10 cable nets to substantiate a raise in rates. Nah, better move to drop them, even for the customer. And DISH will continue to gain customers as they always have even with ten less channels.


----------



## jasonjpw

CBS VIACOM is down
Comedy Central
BET
NICK E
NICK W
NICK GAS
NOGGIN
MTV
MTV2
VH1
VH1 Classic

Weird

MTV 2, VH1 Classic, Nick GAS, Noggin - Cut from slate of Channels not listed in guide.


----------



## davepack

jasonjpw said:


> CBS VIACOM is down
> Comedy Central
> BET
> NICK E
> NICK W
> NICK GAS
> NOGGIN
> MTV
> MTV2
> VH1
> VH1 Classic
> 
> Weird
> 
> MTV 2, VH1 Classic, Nick GAS, Noggin - Cut from slate of Channels not listed in guide.


This is just great. How do I explain to my 3 year old why he can no longer watch all his favorite shows on Nick and Noggin?

I've been a Dish customer since 1997. I'm now starting to look seriously at our local cable company (Insight). I hate to do it, I really do, but my 3 year old doesn't understand, and shouldn't care, about this dispute. He's going to be wanting his shows--and good, educational shows at that--and if this stuff is going to drag on, I'm going to have to look at the alternative.

Thanks Dish and Viacom. Thanks a lot.

Dave


----------



## dmodemd

I know it would be too complicated for some, but I really would like the option to buy channels a la carte. Let everyone decide on their own how much they are willing to pay for each channel.....

I know that model doesnt help grow unknown channels for the media giants though...


----------



## bcw

googlio said:


> Hey, if your paying hard earned money for channels you expected to have, it is a big deal. When you are cheated, it is a big deal. It's not about tv, its about two corporations robbing the average customer.


I am truly sorry that your instant gratification has been reduced.
I have AEP+locals. I support Charlie 100%.


----------



## newsub

bcw said:


> I am truly sorry that your instant gratification has been reduced.
> I have AEP+locals. I support Charlie 100%.


can I seriously ask why charlie is blowing his own horn about the extra channels not available before to subs that are available now? I mean he's acting like they just put them up on the satellite when we the at180 subs have been receiving these all along. What new channels will we the at180 or the everything pack subs be getting for the channels we're missing?

I'm wondering how long it will be before comcast and directv start offering dish network subscribers special deals to switch to them? I give them the end of the day. Also any news about what happens if you try to cancel your contract. I mean this IS gonna be ugly. It IS also going to be a very LONG battle despite what most people hope and think because neither side wants to budge. I expect it to go on for at least 2 or 3 months when a federal mediator will intervene and make both sides agree on lower rates but echostar will have to carry ALL of viacom's networks (bet jazz,mtv hits, nick toons,vh1 mega hits, vh1 country,et al).


----------



## scaredpoet

Well, I *was* set up to completely p.o.ed about the channel drops, but somehow Spike TV still seems to up and running, while MTV, MTV2, BET, Noggin and my local CBS channel are off. I could've sworn I saw COmedy Central this morning, but that too has gone dark, which I'm slightly annoyed about.

Oddly enough, the Viacom channels I'm *interested* in are still up, while the ones I rarely if ever watch are out. Maybe they just haven't taken the feed for Spike TV down yet? *shrug* 

*shrug* I don't know why this is, I had thought all Viacom channels were coming down. 

So... I guess I'm not so pissed anymore, though I suppose if you're devoted to VH1. MTV, etc. you have a right to be.


----------



## Guest

I am giving Dish 48 Hours to fix this or I am off to Direct TV. I am just glad i am not under contract with Dish.


----------



## maddawg

bye...too bad folks are a slave to tv. I say adios to viacom


----------



## maddawg

scaredpoet said:


> Well, I *was* set up to completely p.o.ed about the channel drops, but somehow Spike TV still seems to up and running, while MTV, MTV2, BET, Noggin and my local CBS channel are off. I could've sworn I saw COmedy Central this morning, but that too has gone dark, which I'm slightly annoyed about.
> 
> Oddly enough, the Viacom channels I'm *interested* in are still up, while the ones I rarely if ever watch are out. Maybe they just haven't taken the feed for Spike TV down yet? *shrug*
> 
> *shrug* I don't know why this is, I had thought all Viacom channels were coming down.
> 
> So... I guess I'm not so pissed anymore, though I suppose if you're devoted to VH1. MTV, etc. you have a right to be.


 So you agree, 40% increase is justifiable?


----------



## jagouar

Just FYI but I havent lost Spike TV or TV Land. Is this something that is supposed to happen at a later time?


----------



## RAD

In other post in other threads folks have said to just chill about things, heck it's only TV. Yep, it's something that folks have come to expect to be there and now some of the channels that they want to view are gone. I've already talked to a couple of coworkers that are asking me about D*, they can't get CBS OTA due to location. Another got a phone call from his daughter asking why she couldn't get Nick anymore. 

Charlie has no problems charging his customers $4.95 per month per PVR for his 510 and 921 (and future PVR's) but when a provider wants to raise his rates he gets on his white horse and is riding to hold the line on programing charges. I'm here to protect the customer. He'll charge you $4.95 per extra STB, even if you paid MSRP for it, even thought it doesn't cost him that much to support it. Charlie charges these fees because he can, but don't dare let a provider ask for an increase. 

Sorr Charlie, but I don't agree with you on this until you or Viacom put out the actual increases that we're talking about. None of this X percentage stuff, if you want support folks show us the money.


----------



## MikeSoltis

I find I am hardly affected at all.... TVLand, Spike, Cartoon Network are still on (for all the viewing I do of these channels  Just another non-issue with me. I can pull Nick and Comedy Central off cable.


----------



## Guest

maddawg said:


> bye...too bad folks are a slave to tv. I say adios to viacom


I am not a slave to TV. My Kids enjoy Nick and if I can't get it on Dish I will move on. Not a big deal. My 6000 and sw 64 will be for sale soon.


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## waltinvt

I watched CC lastnight and thought they said that unless you lived in one of
those cities, you would still receive your distant CBS. I'm in the
Burlington / Plattsburg DMA and do still get my CBS local but no longer get
the CBS HD.
Walt


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## maddawg

JMR said:


> I am not a slave to TV. My Kids enjoy Nick and if I can't get it on Dish I will move on. Not a big deal. My 6000 and sw 64 will be for sale soon.


 Not saying you are a slave to tv. My question, should everyone pay whatever increase is being asked? If you are willing to pay, then perhaps charlie should set a separate package for viacom channels.


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## ZJedi01

Personally I dont care whose fault this is. In todays world if two grown adults running two corportations cant come to some sort of compromise for the better of both of their consumers then they deserve the end result. I don't care if Charile thinks he's helping me out buy not raising my rates by not paying the increase (which for those channels I would gladly pay my portion), I don't care if Viacom thinks its protecting its partners interest by letting a satelite company get a better deal than its other partners (direct, comcast) etc. Utlimately I want those channels. And now, ultimately, as a result of both their childish behaviors (phone number posting, scrolling messages, etc) I am seriously considering quitting dish and boycotting viacom channels. Neither deserves my business or my respect. The only loser in this deal is the consumer...not Charlie not Viacom they are both worth billions. I blame them both for being greedy self interested individuals...they are both worth billions whats the difference of a couple million dollars to make both of there customers happy who on average make whole 30000 - 80000 dollars a year. Both companies need to put things in perspective and realiz who is getting screwed here. Not them...us.


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## catnap1972

ZJedi01 said:


> Personally I dont care whose fault this is. In todays world if two grown adults running two corportations cant come to some sort of compromise for the better of both of their consumers then they deserve the end result. I don't care if Charile thinks he's helping me out buy not raising my rates by not paying the increase (which for those channels I would gladly pay my portion), I don't care if Viacom thinks its protecting its partners interest by letting a satelite company get a better deal than its other partners (direct, comcast) etc. Utlimately I want those channels.


And this is the bottom line why Viacom thinks they can get away with whatever they ask for.

"Well we're obviously worth 10x what we're charging so why not get some more money...they'll bend over and pay it".

Pretty soon, you'll have Turner and the mouse come calling "Hey, you gave THEM more money...how about us?!?!?"


----------



## Guest

As a Dish customer since the beginning, I can live without all these odd ball stations that Viacom "wants" Charlie Ergin to carry. 

I do not watch and/ or interested in any programming that viacom carries!
I do not have any kids & don't enjoy comedys...............

The only station that i will miss { 50%} of the time is the local CBS feed which is KDKA in pittsburgh which carries THE PITTSBURGH STEALERS FOOTBALL.

Other than that, i like NBC better for news.

I support charlie ergin in his fight to keep prices down.


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## Chebyrashka

This is a total ripoff, that's a lot of channels that I once had (and probably watched 50-85% of the time) taken off. The CBS feed alone I pay $1.50 for a month. Plus just 4 months ago my rates went up at least $10 a month for the extra receiver and PVR feeds.

This is ridiculous.


----------



## Chebyrashka

Another thing that was hilarious was last night when watching Comedy Central, Viacom had a banner running across the screen once or twice explaining that we might lose these channels.. I could read about 10 words and then E* promptly put a big black box up on the bottom half of the screen so I couldn't read it. Disturbing as well.


----------



## TonyM

JohnH said:


> Not exactly correct. A guess would place the number of different slates at as many as 6.
> The slates for the CBS Locals are different than the slates for the Viacom cable channels and a guess would place the slates for Distants at 1 per.


Theres no slates for CBS (at least mine)
Turned to WCCO and saw Charlie and his speech about Viacom. He says to call the VP of this CBS (which shows the name of the VP of WCCO) and to call the advertisers, and a screen comes up with Cub & Rainbow (the big grocery chains), Target, Best Buy (which is HQ is Mpls) and HOM furniture.

There will be a special chat at 7 eastern to discuss this "on this channel"..so its not going to be on 101..It will be on the CBS channel that is missing.


----------



## TonyM

Chebyrashka said:


> Another thing that was hilarious was last night when watching Comedy Central, Viacom had a banner running across the screen once or twice explaining that we might lose these channels.. I could read about 10 words and then E* promptly put a big black box up on the bottom half of the screen so I couldn't read it. Disturbing as well.


i saw it during WWE Raw...there's only one thing..I have ExpressVu and RAW is on TSN..


----------



## greggg

Bigeye you probably live in a Sun City and vote down all school bond issues too. It is goofy to see all the people here saying "well I have no kids so this doesn't affect me". Oh yes it does. When Charlie loses a large amount of customers over this, when and if it becomes permanent, he will lose leverage with other carriers also. Watch your rates go up and PQ go down then. That's when the big for sale sign comes out. No comedies and a Steeler fan. You probably get your fill of yucks from Bill's boys. Crack open another Iron City premium beer.


----------



## Swampthing

In the article link posted earlier on this website, FORBES gave an interesting and objective account of the real bottom line. *There is no 40-percent rate increase as Charlie claims*:



> EchoStar Chief Executive Charlie Ergen told reporters this week Viacom had asked for a 40-percent rate increase over an undisclosed multi-year period. But one of his own lawyers admitted in a San Francisco court Viacom was asking for an average 7-percent rate increase.
> 
> Analysts said Viacom has demanded rate increases closer to a mid-single digit percentage rate. A source familiar with the negotiations said Viacom has now offered a 5-percent annual rate increase for its cable channels.


----------



## scaredpoet

maddawg said:


> So you agree, 40% increase is justifiable?


I didn't say that at all. I said if you're one of the people who find TV useless without the blocked channels, then you have a right to be angry at someone for it. WHo you choose to be angry at is your decision.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I don't appreciate it.


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## juan ellitinez

Try calculating the increase over the life of the contract


----------



## hometheaterman

TNGTony said:


> OTHER UNCORROBERATED REPORTS:
> FUSE TDISN, and WAM are now Free to Air (FTA)...not necessarily on Dish Network receivers


 So since I already subscribe to top 120 I get I measly channel free that I didnt get before and loose several channels that I watched. Those channels free don't make me like the loss of nick and mtv2.


----------



## JohnH

TonyM said:


> Theres no slates for CBS (at least mine)
> Turned to WCCO and saw Charlie and his speech about Viacom. He says to call the VP of this CBS (which shows the name of the VP of WCCO) and to call the advertisers, and a screen comes up with Cub & Rainbow (the big grocery chains), Target, Best Buy (which is HQ is Mpls) and HOM furniture.
> 
> There will be a special chat at 7 eastern to discuss this "on this channel"..so its not going to be on 101..It will be on the CBS channel that is missing.


Yeah, it looks like all the speeches are up and running now.

BTW: They all have different graphics for the particular market. Seems like the script Charlie is using is the same on all of them. I guess an assembly job for the production department with only one reading of the speech.


----------



## David_A

Well it looks like I will be calling DirecTV today to order service from them. I really don't give a rats arse about Charlie or Viacom. Hell I really wouldn't care at all but I lost my local CBS and UPN. I PVR Enterprise every Saturday night because my wife doesn't like to watch it. She PVRs shows on MTV that she will miss tomorrow night. I got a letter in the mail last month stating that my package was chaning to AT120 and the price would be going up, but since I just signed a one year agreement the price increase wouldn't affect me. It's nice to know that they can change the channels that I paid for but I can't.


----------



## Bob Trapp

I receive the Distant Networks package and still get CBS but I have lost CBSHD. I thought CBSHD was part of the Distant Networks.


----------



## JohnH

We need a list of what UPN locals were actually pulled down. I guess somebody will have to scan the EPG for telltale signs.


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## TonyM

CBS-HD is gone for the time being because if you live in an O&O CBS area, you could get CBS-HD. 

CBS distants are still up, just on different channels


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## Slordak

This totally screws us in Chicago, with regards to being able to get CBS. In Chicago, CBS (Analog OTA) is on VHF Channel 2, and CBS-DT is on VHF Channel 3. Hence, because of the frequency, receiving this over the air requires the maximum size of antenna (i.e. not just a small indoor or attic UHF antenna) mounted on the roof. To make matters worse, the signal is actually at reduced strength in some directions to avoid interfering with other stations. People remember, even as kids, that CBS was always "the really snowy, hard to get station".

The Chicago O&O CBS station, WBBM, claims a huge area is covered by its "Grade B" coverage, but realistically, you can't receive the station particularly well in much of the Chicago area.


----------



## James Long

Goodfella said:


> You're not serious? You won't fill the void. Deny it all you want, many of the stations that are gone are *very * popular. You know it.


*No* station is that important. Get a grip. I'm not subscribing to Viacom Satellite with 126 more channels free. I'm subscribing to E*.



juan ellitinez said:


> Try calculating the increase over the life of the contract


As has been done several times. But trolls don't read math. They'd rather B&M over emotional troll comments instead of looking at the topic RATIONALLY.



Chebyrashka said:


> Another thing that was hilarious was last night when watching Comedy Central, Viacom had a banner running across the screen once or twice explaining that we might lose these channels.. I could read about 10 words and then E* promptly put a big black box up on the bottom half of the screen so I couldn't read it. Disturbing as well.


I believe you were disurbed BEFORE you saw the scroll/blackout.

JL
Looking forward to when the trolls get tired and we can get back to the topic FULL time.


----------



## Guest

maddawg said:


> Not saying you are a slave to tv. My question, should everyone pay whatever increase is being asked? If you are willing to pay, then perhaps charlie should set a separate package for viacom channels.


I agree! I would pay extra if need be.


----------



## rbyers

Interesting aside, I've noticed that many (but not all) of the Dish bashers in this thread are really very new members (Mar 04) or guests. Makes you wonder if some of these guys aren't Viacom shills. Could be!

If these channels are really that popular for a group of subs and most of the rest of us can't stand them, why not create an America's Top 190, a special group of 10 or so channels, where the Viacom lovers can pay for the channels they want and the rest of us aren't burdened. Since they aren't concerned about my monthly bill, and they are convinced the charge won't be very high, it would seem to be a good solution for everyon. Call it ViaPac or some other descriptive label. Seems to me to be a great solution for all.


----------



## Chebyrashka

> I believe you were disurbed BEFORE you saw the scroll/blackout.


Uh no, I was disturbed that they would censor programming like that. If they are correct on the matter they shouldn't have any reason to filter information.


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## Richard King

> Call it ViaPac or some other descriptive label. Seems to me to be a great solution for all.


Viacom won't allow that. They want there programming available to as many eyeballs as possible, even if 90% of those eyeballs couldn't care less about the programming.


----------



## stonecold

Hooked up my FTA mpeg2 reciver picked up All three Wam Fuse and Tdisney. supposely dish is giving away these channels way to all subs as temp replacements for subs with out them which should be only at60.


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## rockies76

I heard on the radio this morning driving into work that Dish was going to offer $1-2 credits/month for people affected by the blackout. $1 for losing a OTA channel and $1 if you lost any of the other viacom channels. Has anyone else heard this? Just curious.


----------



## Chebyrashka

rbyers said:


> If these channels are really that popular for a group of subs and most of the rest of us can't stand them, why not create an America's Top 190, a special group of 10 or so channels, where the Viacom lovers can pay for the channels they want and the rest of us aren't burdened. Since they aren't concerned about my monthly bill, and they are convinced the charge won't be very high, it would seem to be a good solution for everyon. Call it ViaPac or some other descriptive label. Seems to me to be a great solution for all.


The same could be said about any number of channels. I could do away with about every sports channel, all the lifetime/biography crap, etc. If going down those lines, it would be great if you could just subscribe to blocks of channels, but that would never happen.

Didn't Dish Network used to have a package where you could choose 10 channels a month for a set fee? They probably lost money on it, because it was exactly what everyone would want!


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## Karl Foster

Here in Salt Lake, the CBS affiliate (KUTV Channel 2) is owned by Viacom. The entire state just lost their local CBS affiliate on Dish. Ugly situation...


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## RAD

Ya know, if Charlie sells 100,000 PVR's this year and at $4.95 per month for the PVR fee, that's $5,940,000 for Charlie's pocket, and that's after you paid for the PVR. Yea, Charlie's really watching out for our pocket books.


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## Guest

How are all the people who cancelled their service being treated by Dish when you call in?


Another note: Would it be possible for Charlie to setup a webpoll for subscribers to vote on replacement channels? just a thought....


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## Guest

justalurker said:


> Easy bet, as you have no proof either way. "Turner" channels are worth more anyways.
> 
> JL


No they are no worth more. Viacom Channels has more viewers. Thus they are worth more.


----------



## rbyers

Chebyrashka said:


> The same could be said about any number of channels. I could do away with about every sports channel, all the lifetime/biography crap, etc. If going down those lines, it would be great if you could just subscribe to blocks of channels, but that would never happen.


I'm down with that. But, at the moment, the sports channels aren't trying to stick it to _me_ with regard to raising prices. If they were to come in with the same kind of pricing demands as Viaporn, I'd be all for it. There are others that share this view. Here's a tidbit that I picked up from the AVS Forum this morning.

Janet Jackson's SB prank could end up costing sports fans lots. (ESPN and FAN prices will soar if they are forced to go a la carte.)

And who knows how a la carte pricing would effect the still slim HD pickings?

Here are excerpts from the MultiChannel News article late Tuesday afternoon:

DeLay Calls on Cable to Go a la Carte

By Ted Hearn -- Multichannel News, 3/2/2004 4:54:00 PM

Washington -- House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas) called on the cable industry to allow consumers to pick all of their channels on an individual basis as a way of filtering indecent programming from their homes.

In remarks to a National Association of Broadcasters forum here Tuesday and later to reporters, DeLay stressed that he was not advocating government a la carte mandates, which, if imposed, would break up cable's long tradition of offering networks in packages with dozens of channels on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.

"I would love to see them fix their own industry," DeLay told a reporter. "I should have a choice as to what comes into my home, not to what is dictated to come into my home by packages."

But DeLay warned the NAB group that in the wake of the Super Bowl breast exposure by Janet Jackson, Congress would respond if TV programming continued to be laced with gratuitous sex and violence.

"My message to you and everyone in your industry is this: The status quo will not stand," DeLay said.

DeLay became the highest-ranking lawmaker to advocate a la carte on cable. He said the idea hit him when he recently turned on the TV late at night and came across programming he found objectionable, citing Nip/Tuck on FX, Howard Stern on E! Entertainment Television and random happenings on Black Entertainment Television and MTV: Music Television.

"I just couldn't believe my eyes," DeLay told the NAB group. "The people who don't want it ought be able to say no."

The cable industry has opposed a la carte as a business model, saying it would undermine niche programmers while requiring consumers to rent or buy set-tops that can activate discrete program selections. MSOs also complain about high costs to convert billing systems to a la carte.

DeLay said he would not be satisfied if the cable industry responded to his a la carte call by developing so-called family-friendly programming packages -- something supported by Republican Federal Communications Commission member Kevin Martin.

"Why can't the technology let me pick? I pick my `family friendly' [tier] based upon what I think ought to be in my home, not what somebody else -- the industry itself -- is dictating," he added.

DeLay said he didn't how much time cable deserved to develop a la carte services.


----------



## btbrossard

(This was for the other Viacom thread in which a member complained that $6 million dollars was a lot of money for a 6 cent/subscriber increase)

If you let Charlie cancel all of your programming except BingoTV, that would really help him out.

Lets look at the numbers, shall we. Assuming Dish has 9 million subscribers who all subscribe to a minimum of AT60 we can expect that Charlie will bring in (minimum, I pay Charlie $75/month):

9,000,000 x $25 = $225,000,000 a month
or, $2,700,000,000 a year.


My point would be, while $6,480,000 seems like a lot of money to you, its hardly a drop in the bucket as far as Charlie is concerned.

/Benjamin


----------



## Orcatek

The contact us info at Viacom no longer works, just gives their sales numbers - cute. Seems they don't want to hear any complaints!


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

skilcraft said:


> How are all the people who cancelled their service being treated by Dish when you call in?


The woman I talked to was quite nice and calm (considering what she must be going through)....

However, I'm not one to rant and rave and yell at csrs....so maybe I was a relief call (even though I'm pissed).

I started with a movie channel cancellation (she waived the downgrade fee, so that was nice).

I don't want to lose EVERYTHING until I get DirecTV installed and that could take awhile.


----------



## Guest

I'm all for "sticking it to the man", but it looks like Charlie is using this as a way to flex his muscle. I was one of Dish Nets first subscribers here in Colorado - and I work across the street at the National Digital Video Distribution Center and the soundstages for Starz/Encore.

Is Dish Network the small guy getting screwed by the huge corporation? Nope... Echostar hasn't been a small company since the early 80's, and Viacom knows this.

According to Viacom's statement, the rate increase they are proposing equates to 6 cents per month, per subscriber. Dish Network just hiked my "Everything Pack" $3.00 last month, too.

So now I get a dollar credit for the loss of my Denver CBS feed, and a dollar credit for the loss of the rest of the Viacom stations... leaving me with a rate INCREASE of $1. I am now paying upwards of $100.00 per month for my programming and four receivers.

Cable companies have always had rates dependent on the amount of subscribers they have, but Echostar seems to believe they should be exempt. Why? I constantly hear Charlie talking about how unfairly the satellite industry is treated compared to cable. He wants equality, but only when it's in his favor!

Mr. Ergen is using his huge subscriber base to attempt to increase profit to his company, and he's doing it at the expense of the customer. Are you really going to be satisfied with your 1 or 2 dollar monthly credit? I'm not!

I can say this... Viacom is not going to back down. They will simply rely on subscribers jumping ship to other content providers (read ViaCom's statement at http://www.viacom.com/press.tin?ixPressRelease=80254208). Right or wrong, this battle is best suited to a courtroom and not live on the air - But then Echostar would not get the publicity they are getting now.

If any of you believe that Viacom is going to feel the sting from lost advertising revenue, then you need to check out the company a little more throughly. They can afford the small loss from this. Viacom is a huge multinational corporation with lot's of other revenue streams, including Blockbuster Video and several television syndication leasing companies.

Please Charlie, keep the corporate politics in the board room where they belong. Your customers just want what they're paying you to deliver.


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## Guest

Why is eveyone on this board so negative to Charlie and DishNetwork? I love my dish. Have been a subscriber for 3 years. I am happy with the product, and the fact that the rate increases have been very small compared to my neighbors that have cable. I'm glad Charlie is paying hard ball with Viacom. He is helping to keep my rates low. I don't care how much profit he makes, as long as I see a great picture and pay less than I would with Comcast.


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## rbyers

MyBuddy said:


> Your customers just want what they're paying you to deliver.


How about you paying my 6 cents/month since that's all it is. I'm a customer and I'm happy with Dish's position on this issue. If you're not, you can always switch to D* or cable.


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## normang

I don't believe that its only 6 cents a month per sub either, I suspect that is only for the first year of a multi-year contract and it only goes up from there, Viacom is not being forthcoming.. Perhaps the special chat tonight will highlight all the numbers


----------



## Guest

I need to chime in here.

The MAIN reason I went to Dish Network was price. I wanted to save a few bucks a month and I do. I want to continue to save a few bucks a month. Thise of you would be willing to pay an increase to keep the channels, go to DTV or your cable company. I got tired of rate increases every 6 months to Time Warner AND lose some channles AND have them switched around right when I used to where they were. DTV, just seemed to high to me and I am not crazy about their business practices. (Not going to get into in this thread).
I watch RAW on Monday. I watch All in The Family. So I am good there. But, I could live without them.
I do not care for MTV, VH1, Comedy Central, BET, and CMT. I never watch CBS. I am not a football fan.
I am sorry about Nick and Noggin as I have kids, but I will replace the programs on those channels with a book or some play time.ANd I really have no problems putting in Nemo or some other movie that we enjoy. 
I do understand some that some people are upset about this, but try to remember why you chose Dish in the first place, I am sure for most it was the price.

Thanks for reading.

-SNT


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## Agent0042

The channels that Dish is offering in place of the lost ones are... nice. Too bad there's nothing I care about watching on any of them, at least not the ones that are new to my package.


----------



## Guest

SNT said:


> I need to chime in here.
> 
> The MAIN reason I went to Dish Network was price. I wanted to save a few bucks a month and I do. I want to continue to save a few bucks a month. Thise of you would be willing to pay an increase to keep the channels, go to DTV or your cable company. I got tired of rate increases every 6 months to Time Warner AND lose some channles AND have them switched around right when I used to where they were. DTV, just seemed to high to me and I am not crazy about their business practices. (Not going to get into in this thread).
> I watch RAW on Monday. I watch All in The Family. So I am good there. But, I could live without them.
> I do not care for MTV, VH1, Comedy Central, BET, and CMT. I never watch CBS. I am not a football fan.
> I am sorry about Nick and Noggin as I have kids, but I will replace the programs on those channels with a book or some play time.ANd I really have no problems putting in Nemo or some other movie that we enjoy.
> I do understand some that some people are upset about this, but try to remember why you chose Dish in the first place, I am sure for most it was the price.
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> -SNT


Rember though all you had to pay was 6 cent smore this year to keep these channels. Then 6 cents more next year. Viacom doens't charge much at all for these channels.


----------



## catnap1972

normang said:


> I don't believe that its only 6 cents a month per sub either, I suspect that is only for the first year of a multi-year contract and it only goes up from there, Viacom is not being forthcoming..


Charlie is saying that it's a 40% increase over the life of the contact. I don't believe Viacom's numbers either. We still don't know for sure if it's 6 cent per sub or 6 cents per sub/per channel (more likely). Knowing Viacom, I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to pad the bill to offset any future FCC fines from that Super Bowl incident as well.


----------



## Guest

Amera64 said:


> Rember though all you had to pay was 6 cent smore this year to keep these channels. Then 6 cents more next year. Viacom doens't charge much at all for these channels.


I don't recall ever recieving anything from DN about that.
It was only $2.00 ffrom cable, etc...
Cents make dollars. Everything is going up except my salary.

-SNT


----------



## Guest

catnap1972 said:


> Charlie is saying that it's a 40% increase over the life of the contact. I don't believe Viacom's numbers either. We still don't know for sure if it's 6 cent per sub or 6 cents per sub/per channel (more likely). Knowing Viacom, I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to pad the bill to offset any future FCC fines from that Super Bowl incident as well.


Viacom only charges around 1 dollar for its channels an increase of 6-10 cents a year over the lengh of the contract would result in a 40% increase in the end. But it would still be less than 2 dollars for all of its channels.


----------



## James Long

Chebyrashka said:


> Uh no, I was disturbed that they would censor programming like that. If they are correct on the matter they shouldn't have any reason to filter information.


E* was trying to keep Viacom from lying to their customers. Note the slates that Viacom had running on TVLand "available only on DirecTV and cable". An absolute lie as TVLand (and SpikeTV) remain under contract and on the air.

Viacom was attempting electronic warfare against E* by encouraging viewers (including non-E* customers) to flood the CSRs. E* was acting in their own defense.

JL


----------



## Guest

rbyers said:


> How about you paying my 6 cents/month since that's all it is. I'm a customer and I'm happy with Dish's position on this issue. If you're not, you can always switch to D* or cable.


There is no democracy here, as you did not get to vote. I firmly believe that people should stand up for their beliefs and principals, but this is a BUSINESS. Echostar is not doing this for your benefit, they are doing it to increase their bottom line. Echostar could easily afford to eat the 6 cents per subscriber, but they have chosen not to.

Everyone likes to see a good fight, but after a while the subscribers are going to tire of this and simply want their programming back. Echostar and Viacom will hash this out quickly, and those channels will be back as Dish cannot compete in the market without them.

I'm sure it will also be used as an excuse for another rate hike later. It is my opinion that this was a particulary bad business decision, and Dish is attempting to convince you that Viacom is the "big bad wolf" in order to keep your -> BUSINESS <-. That's it... nothing more.


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## Guest

A lot of people seem to be saying they'd rather have a cheaper provider with fewer channels. This is fine for them, but the end result will be a second-class system. The People Express (for those who remember) of Satellite networks.

Unfortunately I don't view television as an undifferentiated firehose of generic entertainment. Aided by my now indispensible PVR I watch only shows I really like, and unfortunately The Daily Show on Comedy Central is our favorite.

Unless this is settled soon, I will be switching for this reason. A la carte programming choice is a solution but won't happen anytime soon. I would be happy to pay more for a special Viacom package, but I don't see that being offered.

And for those who don't care about the Viacom channels, what makes you think this won't happen to the channels YOU really like somewhere down the road?


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## Guest

Viamock said:


> And for those who don't care about the Viacom channels, what makes you think this won't happen to the channels YOU really like somewhere down the road?


Because these companies do not want to lose millions in ad revenues as Viacom will soon find out.

-SNT


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## newsub

Agent0042 said:


> The channels that Dish is offering in place of the lost ones are... nice. Too bad there's nothing I care about watching on any of them, at least not the ones that are new to my package.


Yeah the only packages that these channels are new to are the at60 and at120. What do us subs that have at180 or the everything pack get to replace the lost channels????? NOTHING!!!!! It just goes to prove that charlie could give a rats ass about his higher end customers losing 10 channels and getting nothing to replace them. Charlie you're very close to losing one subscriber here and to think this is the reason i left cable in july (constant rate hikes and channel changes). Well it looks like I will probably be going back to cable if they can offer me a good deal to get my business back.


----------



## James Long

Amera64 said:


> Viacom only charges around 1 dollar for its channels an increase of 6-10 cents a year over the lengh of the contract would result in a 40% increase in the end. But it would still be less than 2 dollars for all of its channels.


There is more to the request than the dollar increase. They want guaranteed carriage of a slate of channels, tied to carriage of the CBS O&O locals. They are using their more popular channels (MTV, VH1, Nick, CBS O&O) to leverage their less popular channels (MTV2, VH1 Classic, GAS, NickToons) and force them on the air.

People complain here about wanting a la carte programming. That's exactly what E* wants. The ability to pick and choose the BEST Viacom channels without paying for the lesser channels and present their choice to their viewers at a decent rate.

JL


----------



## Neutron

davepack said:


> This is just great. How do I explain to my 3 year old why he can no longer watch all his favorite shows on Nick and Noggin?
> 
> I've been a Dish customer since 1997. I'm now starting to look seriously at our local cable company (Insight). I hate to do it, I really do, but my 3 year old doesn't understand, and shouldn't care, about this dispute. He's going to be wanting his shows--and good, educational shows at that--and if this stuff is going to drag on, I'm going to have to look at the alternative.
> 
> Thanks Dish and Viacom. Thanks a lot.
> 
> Dave


If you're going to switch, go with Directv. They are cheaper than Insight. I did a comparision, and to get the same channels we have now it would be $30 more a month.


----------



## ZJedi01

rbyers said:


> How about you paying my 6 cents/month since that's all it is. I'm a customer and I'm happy with Dish's position on this issue. If you're not, you can always switch to D* or cable.


Thats being shortsighted. Id love to swith to D*, but I signed a one year contract with Dish so I could get a really great deal on a HDTV receicer. Now, I cant get out of that contract according to DISH's FAQ on this issue that they just posted, even though they arent providing the content they promised to deliver. There is no way in hell Im paying Dish $300 to cancel my contract. Im not happy and I just cant switch (its not that simple) as you so simply put it. I had a hard enough time convincing my wife to install a dish in the first place instead of keeping cable (rain fade, slow channel switching, ugly satelite outside (her words not mine)) and now they pull some of her favorite channels...shes pissed and I have to here about it, but I cant leave or I have to pay $300. I dont care whose fault it is....im a paying customer who wants those channels and signed up thinking id have those channels, I wont switch and shouldnt have to.

Its really very simple...if you care about your customers...no matter whose fault this deal is...FIX IT. No ifs and or buts. If you dont fix it...you have failed your customers.


----------



## Orcatek

If the viacom channels remain off for more than a week or two, our viewing habits will be changed and we will no longer miss them. And if they came back, we will not watch them as much. Viacom is going to lose viewers for a long time, even if this does get settled.


----------



## Guest

justalurker said:


> There is more to the request than the dollar increase. They want guaranteed carriage of a slate of channels, tied to carriage of the CBS O&O locals. They are using their more popular channels (MTV, VH1, Nick, CBS O&O) to leverage their less popular channels (MTV2, VH1 Classic, GAS, NickToons) and force them on the air.
> 
> People complain here about wanting a la carte programming. That's exactly what E* wants. The ability to pick and choose the BEST Viacom channels without paying for the lesser channels and present their choice to their viewers at a decent rate.
> 
> JL


Could Dish agree to pay for GAS, Nicktoon, ect but just not air them. Would that have been acceptable to Viacom, or does viacom demand that they be on the air.


----------



## newsub

Amera64 said:


> Could Dish agree to pay for GAS, Nicktoon, ect but just not air them. Would that have been acceptable to Viacom, or does viacom demand that they be on the air.


that's another reason I like Comcast better than dish. Comcast offers me mtv hits, vh1 country, vh1 classic rock, nicktoons, noggin, nickelodeon,etc. Why can't they reach an agreement. It seems to me like Dish should go to viacom and say "we'll carry your WHOLE LINEUP if you agree to the lower rates per channel" that way no one loses. Oh well too bad both companies are too proud to compromise.


----------



## Guest

Because If Dish forexample pays 1.25 for each customer a month for Viacoms channels, If they only showed the important ones on the air instead of all of them, I dont see why Viacom would care. They are still being paid.


----------



## Guest

Amera64 said:


> Because If Dish forexample pays 1.25 for each customer a month for Viacoms channels, If they only showed the important ones on the air instead of all of them, I dont see why Viacom would care. They are still being paid.


The would care be of the lack of ad revenues. Channels not being shown = ad not being show.

-SNT


----------



## Guest

I'm on the Digital Home Plan, which says they can change things w/o notice, superceding the Res. Agreement, so I can't get out of the one year contract I signed in SEpt. What do you want to bet they instituted the DHP because they knew this might happen and wanted to have us all by the balls?!

Anyone else have any luck?


----------



## newsub

SNT said:


> The would care be of the lack of ad revenues. Channels not being shown = ad not being show.
> 
> -SNT


if dish would show all the viacom channels i'm sure viacom wouldn't mind dish paying a lower rate per channel. You figure $3.00/sub for 15 channels is the same as $1.25/sub for 32 channels.


----------



## SNT

newsub said:


> if dish would show all the viacom channels i'm sure viacom wouldn't mind dish paying a lower rate per channel. You figure $3.00/sub for 15 channels is the same as $1.25/sub for 32 channels.


Well how about the same number of channels as yesterday for the same price as yesterday?

-SNT


----------



## Guest

SNT said:


> Well how about the same number of channels as yesterday for the same price as yesterday?
> 
> -SNT


SNT All of the other companies agreed to pay the rate. Why should Dish get 15 Channels for just 1 dollar a month a sub. That is dirt cheap.


----------



## sjhill01

Just to throw in a comment from a non-guest/non-new member who's been supportive of DISH and loves the 721 in spite of it's "issues"...

This sucks. Work it out without using consumers as leverage.


----------



## dswallow

Amera64 said:


> SNT All of the other companies agreed to pay the rate. Why should Dish get 15 Channels for just 1 dollar a month a sub. That is dirt cheap.


More importantly, Viacom's contracts with some of the other carriers probably have a clause that requires Viacom to lower the price of the channels to them if they offer a lower price to anyone else.


----------



## BobMurdoch

Hey, if you really want to leave, cut back to the minimum level of programming or put your account into "vacation" mode and pay the $5 a month. Hook up cable and then come back whenever things blow over. 

It just seems like a lot of work for something that will blow over by next week. Do you REALLY think that he will keep people from getting their March madness fix?

THAT is the date when the great exodus will begging from those not tied into long term contracts.

If it goes on for more than a week, I just hook up that roof antenna that I planned on installing this summer to go with my 921.

We'll adapt. Regardless, realize that this fight is not just about Viacom. Turner, Disney, and Comcast are all watching to see what happens. If E* caves then they will eat him for breakfast by pushing through their own huge increases to punish him for trying to stop their sweet deal of jacking up the prices and passing it onto to customers like the Cable and D* execs do. They are pissed that E* has the audacity to try and stand against their onslaught and will make him pay for his uppity protest.

Our only hope is that the courts rule against Viacom for antitrust reasons. If this fails to happen, we are all screwed. Unfortunately, I see this ending by them moving a little towards each other, and then E* being forced to rescind the lawsuit as a condition of the settlement and new contract (a la Gemstar). Then Big Media wins again, when the issue is allowed die off and the abuses will continue unabated.


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

Orcatek said:


> If the viacom channels remain off for more than a week or two, our viewing habits will be changed and we will no longer miss them. And if they came back, we will not watch them as much.


In some ways, I believe this is true. When I lived in the Cincinnati area, I was in a dark area where I could receive NO networks over the air (even though I was about 5 miles from their towers)

I got waivers from all except ABC and spent a year without any ABC programs. I survived just fine.

I don't like being treated like a pawn in the Dish vs. Viacom pissing contest.

DirecTV here I come....after this experience it will be VERY difficult for DISH to get me back in the future.


----------



## James Long

donk said:


> What do you want to bet they instituted the DHP because they knew this might happen


On February 1st the DHP stopped being offered and E* started the new DHA plans ... with forced locals (even if not available) but no committment.

DHP was in place LONG before they thought this would happen, and their latest DH change is to make it more cable like - easier to leave.

JL


----------



## SNT

Amera64 said:


> SNT All of the other companies agreed to pay the rate. Why should Dish get 15 Channels for just 1 dollar a month a sub. That is dirt cheap.


First, I don't see what difference it makes what other companies do. Second what was the problem with the structure the way it was yesterday?

-SNT


----------



## James Long

newsub said:


> if dish would show all the viacom channels i'm sure viacom wouldn't mind dish paying a lower rate per channel.


No. Viacom wants both. More money *and* more channels.

JL


----------



## JohnH

I have come to the conclusion that no UPN was taken down. If you know of one or more specific ones please let us know.


----------



## Guest

SNT said:


> First, I don't see what difference it makes what other companies do. Second what was the problem with the structure the way it was yesterday?
> 
> -SNT


I hope you know Viacom needs to make money. Maybe their cost have increased you don't know. Also if Dish droped something like the Golf Channel they would have more than enough money to pay for Viacom fee increase.


----------



## Guest

justalurker said:


> On February 1st the DHP stopped being offered and E* started the new DHA plans ... with forced locals (even if not available) but no committment.
> 
> DHP was in place LONG before they thought this would happen, and their latest DH change is to make it more cable like - easier to leave.
> 
> JL


Well, that sucks for me. Wah, wah, I know, but I'm stuck w/ the DHP as there was no option w/o a committment last fall.


----------



## Slordak

But will we hear a rumor that Viacom is pushing OJ Simpson to move from pirating DirecTV to pirating Dish Network?


----------



## SNT

Amera64 said:


> I hope you know Viacom needs to make money. Maybe their cost have increased you don't know. Also if Dish droped something like the Golf Channel they would have more than enough money to pay for Viacom fee increase.


Viacom does make money, but they are going to make less if they try to dictate how other companies should be run.

I need to make money also and I do, if I tried the same strong-arm tactics here, I would be out of a job, just as Viacom is now.

-SNT


----------



## nicepants

I just tried calling the numbers for viacom (press your INFO button) but not getting an answer. I wonder how many of our 9 Million fellow E* customers are voicing their complaints


----------



## James Long

SNT said:


> Well how about the same number of channels as yesterday for the same price as yesterday?


That would be nice. But Viacom wants more channels and 5-7% more money.



Amera64 said:


> SNT All of the other companies agreed to pay the rate. Why should Dish get 15 Channels for just 1 dollar a month a sub. That is dirt cheap.


See earlier in the thread. The estimate is that Viacom is already getting $1.20 per sub per month for their channels, and they want a 5-7% increase PER YEAR over the life of the contract. Which grows quickly!

JL


----------



## chifishman

> Viacom needs to make money?


That is fine... then reduces the number of commercials in their programming. IMO they don't have anything worth the extra dough... I have kids... and yes Nick is nice... But reading a book to them or with them is better! (with out commercials as well)


----------



## James Long

JohnH said:


> I have come to the conclusion that no UPN was taken down. If you know of one or more specific ones please let us know.


It is possible that the UPNs elected "must carry" to avoid E* simply refusing to pay for the content. With UPN superstations available the presure to pay for a local UPN isn't as strong.

JL


----------



## SNT

Well how about the same number of channels as yesterday for the same price as yesterday?


justalurker said:


> That would be nice. But Viacom wants more channels and 5-7% more money.
> JL


This looks out of context. That was a response to :


> Originally Posted by newsub
> if dish would show all the viacom channels i'm sure viacom wouldn't mind dish paying a lower rate per channel. You figure $3.00/sub for 15 channels is the same as $1.25/sub for 32 channels.


-SNT


----------



## James Long

SNT said:


> Well how about the same number of channels as yesterday for the same price as yesterday?


That's the question I answered! Twice! Viacom wants both more channels and more money. They are unwilling to accept (at this point) leaving the channels unbundled or not getting a large escalator installed.

E* would love to have the current or a better slate of channels available for the same price as the current rate. It's all about Viacom's greed.

JL


----------



## SNT

justalurker said:


> That's the question I answered! Twice! Viacom wants both more channels and more money. They are unwilling to accept (at this point) leaving the channels unbundled or not getting a large escalator installed.
> 
> E* would love to have the current or a better slate of channels available for the same price as the current rate. It's all about Viacom's greed.
> 
> JL


Dammit, it was a hypothetical question directed towards another poster. If you had read that conversation you would have known that.
I know full well what the problem is. Please, try to read the whole thread before replying.

-SNT


----------



## Guest

I left Time Warner, because every 6 months they were raising the rates. The reason most of you are with E* is for lower rates. Now Charlie is fight to keep rates low and everyone wants to jump ship. Yes the fight will cause us a little discomfort, but so what you may find some more constructive to do with that time anyway. If Charlie loses this fight then we will all (E*,D* and cable subscribers) pay in the end. Then the will be no worry by the Providers that the subscribers will leave due to rate hikes. I do not believe Charle is total truthful about the situation, Neither is Viacom. E* subscribers this is your chance to support a company that is fight to keep rates under control and show that we are tired of the rate increases. Just 5 years ago my cable and internet bill was $48 per month 5 months ago it was $107. I swtiched to E* and my rate dropped to $85. I AM STICKING IT OUT! 

I am tired of companies passing all of the expense on to us little guys.


----------



## MrAkai

Amera64 said:


> SNT All of the other companies agreed to pay the rate. Why should Dish get 15 Channels for just 1 dollar a month a sub. That is dirt cheap.


Actually that's the problem, "all the other companies" pay less than Dish.

Historically, and for no good reason, DBS providers have been screwed on basic cable channel rates, not just from viascum but across the board.

Now I'm not happy about missing the CBS shows my lady and I watch together, but I also don't approve of a business practice that charges a larger customer more per unit than a smaller one, which is was Viacom is doing.


----------



## kstuart

RAD said:


> Ya know, if Charlie sells 100,000 PVR's this year and at $4.95 per month for the PVR fee, that's $5,940,000 for Charlie's pocket, and that's after you paid for the PVR. Yea, Charlie's really watching out for our pocket books.


Because the price you paid for the PVR is less than the manufacturing cost.


----------



## rvd420

I wonder how many local O&O CBS Station Mangers took the day off, or are out of the office today.

Betcha CSRs re working OT.


----------



## Guest

Can anyone tell me if there are any distant CBS affiliates available to me in San Francisco Bay Area (AT120 subscriber)? I am having a hard time accepting that I have absolutely no CBS network shows (Survivor) available to me?!


----------



## nicepants

Northern California said:


> Can anyone tell me if there are any distant CBS affiliates available to me in San Francisco Bay Area (AT120 subscriber)? I am having a hard time accepting that I have absolutely no CBS network shows (Survivor) available to me?!


Can't you receive CBS OTA? If you can then you're not without CBS programming.


----------



## Guest

What is CBS OTA?
Thanks!


----------



## Neutron

According to the DISH CSR, they posted a message last week that they were dumping the channels, and she said DISH posted it on their FYI channel. I don't remember seeing that? She said that was their advanced notice.

Also, she said that the $1 credit is only temporary until they come up with a solution.


----------



## uncdanwrong

I am seriously considering writing to my Congressman. If the law was written the way it should be Viacom would be facing huge fines and potential loss of it's broadcast licenses for stations like KDKA-TV over this HALF BILLION DOLLAR extortion attempt! BTW, the trolls should go take a flying leap.


----------



## cnsf

Over the air (OTA) - using rabbit ears or a roof antenna.


----------



## rbyers

Northern California said:


> What is CBS OTA?
> Thanks!


That's "off the air" using an antenna, like we all did before the days of cable/satellite. Your TV set has these little terminals on the back where you can hook up rabbit ears or a "real" antenna. I wouldn't dream of watching CBS, or any local station, through either Satellite or Cable. The picture is way better OTA (there isn't any compression) .... and there isn't any charge for locals. I also get all of my local HD this way ... about 5 channels.


----------



## MarkA

DISH has every right to drop the channels and Viacom has every right to drop DISH. But I believe in the interests of good faith, Echostar (DISH) should release any subscriber who wishes on account of the Viacom loss from their contract (in exchange for the return of all equipment they may have got for free) because the service offer has now changed substantially from what it was at the time of the contract.


----------



## RAD

kstuart said:


> Because the price you paid for the PVR is less than the manufacturing cost.


That's only if you make a programming commitment to E* and happen to get it on a special. If you pay MSRP which is $299 for a 510 you're paying close to what it cost to make. I recently purchased a Dell desktop with a P4/2.6G, 512Kbps memory, 40GB harddrive, floppy, CD-ROM, video and sound plus ethernet and Windows/XP Home for $399, so don't tell me that it's costing E* more then $299 for a 510.


----------



## djtowle

YES write congress & the FCC, they are the ones who approve the mergers, buyouts, and takeovers that allow companies like viacom, come into existence.


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the OTA info - so, just to clarify, in order to watch CBS "off-the-air," I would simply turn off my dish receiver and attempt to switch my tv set to my local CBS channel number (after hooking up rabbit ears)? 

Thanks again.


----------



## guruka

There's a new episode being aired this Friday on CBS and my local affiliate (KRQE) is not broadcasting the CBS feed, choosing instead to air a local college basketball game 

If someone still has access to CBS distants through DBS or cable, perhaps you might be kind enough to record the show for me and mail it to me. If so, send me a PM.

Many thanks, .....G


----------



## Guest

I have been trying to access Dish Network's web site for a few hours and it is not responding. Also www.echostar.com is not responding either. Maybe a hacker that subscribes to Dish Network is pissed and brought their web site down.


----------



## BobMurdoch

rockies76 said:


> I heard on the radio this morning driving into work that Dish was going to offer $1-2 credits/month for people affected by the blackout. $1 for losing a OTA channel and $1 if you lost any of the other viacom channels. Has anyone else heard this? Just curious.


Yes, that's confirmed.

$1 for all subscribers for the lost ATxxx channels.
$1 for the lost CBS affiliates (if you are having CBS yanked)

Plus you may get more back if you are patying for Distant CBS stations, CBS-HD, etc.


----------



## msanto

The only thing I really can't live without is CBS. In the SF Bay Area, we've been shut off. I watch CSI, CSI:M, Cold Case and Without a Trace. This is a big deal for me.


----------



## BobMurdoch

uncdanwrong said:


> I am seriously considering writing to my Congressman. If the law was written the way it should be Viacom would be facing huge fines and potential loss of it's broadcast licenses for stations like KDKA-TV over this HALF BILLION DOLLAR extortion attempt! BTW, the trolls should go take a flying leap.


PLEASE do this as it is the only way this practice will stop. I'm not holding out too much hope for this as the NAB owns Congress, but this is the only chance Charlie has to win is through a HARD smackdown of Viacom by the Feds.

Hey, lot of them are STILL pissed about...

1. MTV (owned by Viacom) flashing Janet's breast....
2. CBS (owned by Viacom) hiring MTV to do the halftime show.....
3. Viacom tries to extort money from E* by withholding the Super Bowl on an OTA channel given to Viacom for FREE by the federal government originally. A judge stops this blatant tactic, but only winds up delaying it.

I'm hoping #3 is the third strike and Viacom gets tarred and feathered over their business practices.....


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

BobMurdoch said:


> 3. Viacom tries to extort money from E* by withholding the Super Bowl on an OTA channel given to Viacom for FREE by the federal government originally. A judge stops this blatant tactic, but only winds up delaying it.


Or E* tries to extort Viacom by withholding viewers.....it's all a matter of perspective.

My bill went up $3.00. Viacom wants 6 cents of that.......

Who is making money off of me the $3.00 guy? or the 6 cents guy?

Actually, DirecTV will be making money off me in the future.


----------



## FTA Michael

Yes, write Congress. Tell your representative that they need to develop a formula for fairly compensating OTA broadcasters without this station-by-station negotiation/extortion, just as SHVIA does for distant networks and the superstations.


----------



## SNT

I keep seeing people throwing this 6 cents thing about. I have only seen that once and it was from Viacom. The same people who said I would be losing TVLand and Spike TV. I am not sure of the validity.

-SNT


----------



## Hoobastank

This is why D* is #2, and DirecTV is #1.


----------



## dswallow

Interesting comparison...

Viacom wants Dish Network to take all their channels at a given price, not a subset of them.

Dish Network wants subscribers to take all their channels in a given tier at a specific price, no a-la-carte.


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

SNT said:


> I keep seeing people throwing this 6 cents thing about. I have only seen that once and it was from Viacom. The same people who said I would be losing TVLand and Spike TV. I am not sure of the validity.
> 
> -SNT


The keeping of TVLand and Spike.....appears to be a loophole.....somewhat like those who get DISTANT NETS can still receive the channels that those of us who are local cannot.

A guy in Nevada can still get the Denver CBS channel.....and in Laramie, Wyoming, I cannot.


----------



## FTA Michael

Hoobastank said:


> This is why D* is #2, and DirecTV is #1.


This is why E* (Echostar) shows a profit and D* (DirecTV) doesn't.


----------



## BobMurdoch

SNT said:


> I keep seeing people throwing this 6 cents thing about. I have only seen that once and it was from Viacom. The same people who said I would be losing TVLand and Spike TV. I am not sure of the validity.
> 
> -SNT


If I were Charlie I'd grab this and say, you're right!!!!!!! .06 IS reasonable. SO I just add .06 to what each subscriber is paying now and we're good?

Because it is BS.. There is NO way that all of the increases AND the addition of NickToons will only add .06 (unless it is an NFL like contract where .06 is the first year, and they slam him for $2 next year........)


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

CBS Soaps must have started....the server is busy again!


----------



## SNT

That is true, but Charlie seems content with that.

-SNT


----------



## Mark Holtz

Lets just conviently forget that the $3 increase includes the annual rate hikes by the other channel providers, especially the E$PN channels and Regional $ports Networks. 

Plus, when Dish or DirecTV uplinks the channel, they have to use equipment to compress the signal.

I don't believe that Dish was paying only six cents for the Viacom channels, but rather refusing to pay a six cent increase and more channels without the satellite space to carry them.


----------



## BobMurdoch

carload said:


> Yes, write Congress. Tell your representative that they need to develop a formula for fairly compensating OTA broadcasters without this station-by-station negotiation/extortion, just as SHVIA does for distant networks and the superstations.


Hey, the broadcasters get it for free.........

WE should get it for free (from the broadcasters at least).....

Regardless of whether we have an antenna, cable, or satellite..........

I've got no problem paying E* a few bits for the channel as the quality is better and satellite bandwidth is expensive, but if the networks are giving it away for free to SOME people then they should be forced to treat all viewers equally. In most cases, cable companies STILL aren't paying the networks for their content. Why do THEY get a free ride?


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

Since some people don't care about the loss of the channels....perhaps Dish could come up with a "Viacom package"....where we pay an additional 6 cents....or $2.00 more and keep the channels....rather than using us to get what they want.

My bill went up $3.00 last month.....I don't have alot of sympathy....the timing is bad for Dish.....I'm shopping for DirecTV A.S.A.P. I was always happy with them....I switched because Dish had channels they didn't.....that has changed BIG TIME in the past 24 hours.


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

Mark Holtz said:


> I don't believe that Dish was paying only six cents for the Viacom channels, but rather refusing to pay a six cent increase and more channels without the satellite space to carry them.


Whatever.....the common person sees 6 cents....and sees Charlie's mug on their CBS station or a graphic telling us to compain to the *other* guy......and it makes a lasting impression. The other guy is telling us to complain to Charlie.

Viacom has their O.T.A.'s. I think Dish has more to lose than Viacom.

More bad P.R. for Dish than any financial savings they might see.

I wonder how many NEW Dish subscribers there are today?!?!?!?!?!?!


----------



## MarkA

I still expect this resolved by tonight or tommorrow night... DISH can't afford the customer loss, and Viacom can't afford the viewer loss. It's a lose-lose situation.


----------



## Guest

This is ridiculous. $1 a month is all I get for not only losing MTV, Nickelodeon, etc., but also any access to CBS?! Dish knew this was likely to happen, why didn't they prepare us more thoroughly? Those of us that lost all CBS programming should be given temp access to distant affiliates or something. Or if there is a way for me to get CBS programming OTA, I need instructions on how to do that, and Dish should post that info on their website or in one of their on-screen messages. Or, even better - Dish should provide me with my first month free of DirecTV.


----------



## SNT

BobMurdoch said:


> If I were Charlie I'd grab this and say, you're right!!!!!!! .06 IS reasonable. SO I just add .06 to what each subscriber is paying now and we're good?
> 
> Because it is BS.. There is NO way that all of the increases AND the addition of NickToons will only add .06 (unless it is an NFL like contract where .06 is the first year, and they slam him for $2 next year........)


Yes, my point exactly.

-SNT


----------



## Neutron

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...u=/nm/20040309/bs_nm/media_viacom_echostar_dc

updated news story about this issue


----------



## dswallow

http://www.ilostmyfavoritechannels.com/


----------



## catnap1972

Going by C band pricing, the Viacom package would work out to somewhere between $1 and $4 a month depending on what's in it (CBS, excluded of course).


----------



## BobMurdoch

Northern California said:


> This is ridiculous. $1 a month is all I get for not only losing MTV, Nickelodeon, etc., but also any access to CBS?! Dish knew this was likely to happen, why didn't they prepare us more thoroughly? Those of us that lost all CBS programming should be given temp access to distant affiliates or something. Or if there is a way for me to get CBS programming OTA, I need instructions on how to do that, and Dish should post that info on their website or in one of their on-screen messages. Or, even better - Dish should provide me with my first month free of DirecTV.


OK, terrific.

You're getting $2 back if you are losing CBS as well.

Which, if you believe Viacom, is 3233% MORE than the increase Viacom wants.

As far as the OTA info goes, I'm sure that will be offered shortly (I can see free antennas being offered any day now... they did it once before in a few markets where the local affiliate tried to play hardball).

As for the "free month of DirecTV"

-In the voice of Gary Cole's character in Office Space-

"Rigggghhhtt. I'll have to get back to you on that....." :nono:


----------



## BFG

dswallow said:


> http://www.ilostmyfavoritechannels.com/


LMAO! is that spot really being shown on Comedy Central...

How come they didnt have any peanuts to throw up a spot like that when comedy central was on dish


----------



## PACOP

cool website


----------



## Neutron

Has anyone else noticed on Spike TV that every so often right before their commercials they post a slate and a message saying that DISH is trying to take away Spike TV and to call DISH to complain?


----------



## jrjcd

why is it when the big boys get into a pi$$ing contest, it ALWAYS seems to get on MY shoes????


btw, i'm still getting TV Land on my service...lol


----------



## BobMurdoch

catnap1972 said:


> Going by C band pricing, the Viacom package would work out to somewhere between $1 and $4 a month depending on what's in it (CBS, excluded of course).


According to Viacom, they say that all of the channels combined will only add .06 a subscriber per month. They say this is a 5% increase..

Hmmm. My handy calculator tells me that means that E* is paying $1.20 a month per subscriber for all the viacom basic and CBS channels. And Charlie is giving you $2 back. Which is 67% MORE than he is saving by not paying the fee. I think they are being more than reasonable on the $$$ side of the argument.

That is, unless Viacom is LYING about it only being .06. NOOOO! They wouldn't do that!

Would they?


----------



## PACOP

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/dowjones/20040309/bs_dowjones/200403091425000863

i agree charlie will be hurt more than viacom


----------



## willy

I wonder if D* is going to release new special offers to attract E* customers. Seems like thier deals are pretty reasonable- unless you want HD. From what I can see you have to suck up a $500 bill to switch if you want HD. Would be a good move on D*'s part.


----------



## Neutron

willy said:


> I wonder if D* is going to release new special offers to attract E* customers. Seems like thier deals are pretty reasonable- unless you want HD. From what I can see you have to suck up a $500 bill to switch if you want HD. Would be a good move on D*'s part.


I thought you were staying with E*?


----------



## Mike123abc

All the parents complaining about Nick being out really need to get a clue. What are they raising? Fat slobs to make America even more obese?

THE TELEVISION IS NOT A BABY SITTER!

The more I see posts complaining about cartoon channels not being on the more I think that they should ban these channels altogether. It is unbelieveable that the US has become so dependent on these channels.

Of course I am probably out of touch because I was not allowed to watch TV during the week period (sat morning cartoons was it). Probably most adults over the age of 30 grew up without much TV.

All these posts about having to cancel Dish because they cannot explain to a 3 year old that they cannot watch TV today sound like Viacom employees with talking points posting.

CBS is in reruns (except the soaps). And IF you were cut off of CBS, guess what you can get the channel OTA. If you cannot get over the air, then you should try for some distant feed. 80%+ of the people in these DMAs can get OTA with ease. These are big city DMAs not rural markets where the transmitter is 100 miles away.


----------



## rbyers

Northern California said:


> This is ridiculous. $1 a month is all I get for not only losing MTV, Nickelodeon, etc., but also any access to CBS?! Dish knew this was likely to happen, why didn't they prepare us more thoroughly? Those of us that lost all CBS programming should be given temp access to distant affiliates or something. Or if there is a way for me to get CBS programming OTA, I need instructions on how to do that, and Dish should post that info on their website or in one of their on-screen messages. Or, even better - Dish should provide me with my first month free of DirecTV.


A couple of us have already told you how to do this. There is an antenna input terminal on the back of your television set. You plug an antenna into this terminal. There are specific detailed instructions about this process in your television owner's manual. Everyone in America had to do this until about 20 years ago. You'll probably like it. The picture is BETTER than the one you get via Dish or Direct or Cable. AND, you can save even more money by not subscribing to locals.


----------



## ypsiguy

dmodemd said:


> I know it would be too complicated for some, but I really would like the option to buy channels a la carte. Let everyone decide on their own how much they are willing to pay for each channel.....
> 
> I know that model doesnt help grow unknown channels for the media giants though...


Exactly, Viacom or any of the others specifically preclude a-la-carte. Viacom is a bunch of liars. Spike TV contract goes until 2005, but they make it sound like we're gonna lose it tomorrow LOL


----------



## PACOP

charlie is being so stubborn on this he would lose his business before he would concede to viacom and say he lost the battle.


----------



## willy

Neutron said:


> I thought you were staying with E*?


I am. Im just saying it would be smart of D* to take advantage of the situation.


----------



## PACOP

now its personal...


----------



## HeavyC

If D* would offer a good HD new subscriber package, I'd be making the switch right now.


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

ypsiguy said:


> Exactly, Viacom or any of the others specifically preclude a-la-carte. Viacom is a bunch of liars. Spike TV contract goes until 2005, but they make it sound like we're gonna lose it tomorrow LOL


Actually, I saw the crawl on Spike about the channel going away because of DishNetwork.....

It was Viacom who made it sound like it was going away.

I'm cancelling Dish A.S.A.P., but I think BOTH parties in this pissing contest are at fault.


----------



## MrAkai

Mike123abc said:


> CBS is in reruns (except the soaps). And IF you were cut off of CBS, guess what you can get the channel OTA. If you cannot get over the air, then you should try for some distant feed. 80%+ of the people in these DMAs can get OTA with ease. These are big city DMAs not rural markets where the transmitter is 100 miles away.


Distance isn't the only limiting factor in television transmittal. Here in the SF Bay Area, for example, we have a bunch of these things called mountains and they have a nasty tendancy to block RF signals.

I'm less than 40 miles from SF and even with a big 'ole lighting rod of an antenna I'd be lucky to get FOX from Oakland, certainly not NBC from San Jose, and probably not CBS/ABC from San Francisco.

So please watch your generalizations.

As for your rant against cartoon/kids networks, while I agree that parents need to be responsible for their kids behavior and TV watching, I don't think any kind of banning or other censorship is the way to go. Remember that TV is the ultimate democratic medium. If you don't like what's on, you don't have to watch it. Your choice.


----------



## willy

PACOP said:


> charlie is being so stubborn on this he would lose his business before he would concede to viacom and say he lost the battle.


Yea--- youre right. He doesnt care if he goes out of business. He's an extremely successful businessman... apparently to you this is out of luck and not business saavy. :nono2:


----------



## ypsiguy

Mike123abc said:


> All the parents complaining about Nick being out really need to get a clue. What are they raising? Fat slobs to make America even more obese?
> 
> THE TELEVISION IS NOT A BABY SITTER!
> 
> The more I see posts complaining about cartoon channels not being on the more I think that they should ban these channels altogether. It is unbelieveable that the US has become so dependent on these channels.
> 
> Of course I am probably out of touch because I was not allowed to watch TV during the week period (sat morning cartoons was it). Probably most adults over the age of 30 grew up without much TV.
> 
> All these posts about having to cancel Dish because they cannot explain to a 3 year old that they cannot watch TV today sound like Viacom employees with talking points posting.
> 
> CBS is in reruns (except the soaps). And IF you were cut off of CBS, guess what you can get the channel OTA. If you cannot get over the air, then you should try for some distant feed. 80%+ of the people in these DMAs can get OTA with ease. These are big city DMAs not rural markets where the transmitter is 100 miles away.


Amen...well put folks. I deprogrammed CBS and UPN Detroit from my OTA DTV box since they are O&O's. I will not watch programming of a company that treats me unfairly. I have a novel suggestion for folks with kids, actually sit down and talk and play with ur kids. They'll love it.


----------



## ggw2000

Been watching this thread off and on today but don't see the info I am looking for as far as CBS. I watched the Charlie Chat last night and he said that if you do NOT live in one of the listed cities you would still get your "distant" locals both east and west.
When I got up this morning I checked and they were gone (ch 243/244?). Also checked and CBSHD was also off. I live in upstate NY and have the waivers for about 4 yrs or so. I called Tech Support and he thought that I should not have lost them but his computer would not let him put them back on  . I told him that this wasn't going to work- if my wife didn't get her soap today we both would be in deep doo-da. 
To make a long story short, he had to wipe out the west coast "distants" and then he added the Atlanta ones for me (channels 8300-8303) so that I could get a CBS station.
Can someone let me know the rules and why I lost my NORMAL east and west coast CBS? I think I should still have them but getting thru to Dish would surely be a disaster at this time. Thanks, Gerry


----------



## willy

ggw2000 said:


> I told him that this wasn't going to work- if my wife didn't get her soap today we both would be in deep doo-da.
> Gerry


Woa.... priority check dude.


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

Neutron said:


> I thought you were staying with E*?


I'm not staying.....I've already cancelled part of my Dish service and will cancel the rest once I have DirecTV installed.

I was always happy with DirecTV, but switched because Dish offered more channels.....Not any more.

It's so nice that Dish is giving (for free) the channels that I already pay for.....(it's not helping!!!!)


----------



## Slordak

Am I the only one who thinks that Dish needs to be offering us $10/month, 50% off our monthly bills, or otherwise giving us some serious form of compensation for effectively raping our programming? I know, I know, it's Viacom's fault, but we're Echostar customers, so the buck stops with them!

This $1/month thing is a total insult. Imagine if next we lost all the Turner stations, and Charlie offered us another $1/month, and then some other media giant, and again the same happened, etc. etc. We'd wind up with bills still in the $60s or $70s with nothing on but religious channels and home shopping!

For those of us with 811s and 921s and the HD package... We already pay $2.50/month PER CHANNEL for the HD package, and ESPN-HD isn't even HD 99% of the time! Thus, Charlie giving us $1/month or $2/month for all the Viacom channels is total junk!


----------



## Guest

Mike123abc said:


> All the parents complaining about Nick being out really need to get a clue. What are they raising? Fat slobs to make America even more obese?
> 
> THE TELEVISION IS NOT A BABY SITTER!
> 
> The more I see posts complaining about cartoon channels not being on the more I think that they should ban these channels altogether. It is unbelieveable that the US has become so dependent on these channels.
> 
> Of course I am probably out of touch because I was not allowed to watch TV during the week period (sat morning cartoons was it). Probably most adults over the age of 30 grew up without much TV.
> 
> All these posts about having to cancel Dish because they cannot explain to a 3 year old that they cannot watch TV today sound like Viacom employees with talking points posting.
> 
> CBS is in reruns (except the soaps). And IF you were cut off of CBS, guess what you can get the channel OTA. If you cannot get over the air, then you should try for some distant feed. 80%+ of the people in these DMAs can get OTA with ease. These are big city DMAs not rural markets where the transmitter is 100 miles away.


Oh your sooo cool way too cool for TV. Why do you even subscribe to pay TV if you hate TV so much? The fact is we signed up for a specific reason THE CHANEL LINEUP not because we Like Charlie and his giant ego.


----------



## EJMCOL

Mike123abc said:


> All the parents complaining about Nick being out really need to get a clue. What are they raising? Fat slobs to make America even more obese?
> 
> THE TELEVISION IS NOT A BABY SITTER!


Actually, my kids enjoy certain Nick programming as a reward for getting their homework completed at a decent hour. You make way too many assumptions . . .


----------



## TonyM

Mike123abc said:


> All the parents complaining about Nick being out really need to get a clue. What are they raising? Fat slobs to make America even more obese?
> 
> THE TELEVISION IS NOT A BABY SITTER!
> 
> The more I see posts complaining about cartoon channels not being on the more I think that they should ban these channels altogether. It is unbelieveable that the US has become so dependent on these channels.
> 
> Of course I am probably out of touch because I was not allowed to watch TV during the week period (sat morning cartoons was it). Probably most adults over the age of 30 grew up without much TV.
> 
> All these posts about having to cancel Dish because they cannot explain to a 3 year old that they cannot watch TV today sound like Viacom employees with talking points posting.


Holy S**t. Well said Mike! :biggthump :righton:



> CBS is in reruns (except the soaps). And IF you were cut off of CBS, guess what you can get the channel OTA. If you cannot get over the air, then you should try for some distant feed. 80%+ of the people in these DMAs can get OTA with ease. These are big city DMAs not rural markets where the transmitter is 100 miles away.


Unfortunatelly, I AM in one of those rural areas. My CBS's are a satellite channel (KCCW) and a 587 watt translator (KDLH). I will go home tonight and watch the news on my NBC affiliate. I don't qualify for distant CBS...they say KCCW is grade B (even though it isn't). I guess I can rely on a fuzzy picture...huh, imagine that. I might have to watch a fuzzy picture. That's what we use to do before Dish Network.


----------



## SNT

EJMCOL said:


> Actually, my kids enjoy certain Nick programming as a reward for getting their homework completed at a decent hour. You make way too many assumptions . . .


Give them a dollar instead.

-SNT


----------



## willy

StinkyPantz said:


> Oh your sooo cool way too cool for TV. Why do you even subscribe to pay TV if you hate TV so much? The fact is we signed up for a specific reason THE CHANEL LINEUP not because we Like Charlie and his giant ego.


Why does refusing to succomb to unreasonable demands = giant ego?


----------



## TonyM

ggw2000 said:


> Been watching this thread off and on today but don't see the info I am looking for as far as CBS. I watched the Charlie Chat last night and he said that if you do NOT live in one of the listed cities you would still get your "distant" locals both east and west.
> When I got up this morning I checked and they were gone (ch 243/244?). Also checked and CBSHD was also off. I live in upstate NY and have the waivers for about 4 yrs or so. I called Tech Support and he thought that I should not have lost them but his computer would not let him put them back on  . I told him that this wasn't going to work- if my wife didn't get her soap today we both would be in deep doo-da.
> To make a long story short, he had to wipe out the west coast "distants" and then he added the Atlanta ones for me (channels 8300-8303) so that I could get a CBS station.
> Can someone let me know the rules and why I lost my NORMAL east and west coast CBS? I think I should still have them but getting thru to Dish would surely be a disaster at this time. Thanks, Gerry


-If you have CBS as a local (NY, LA, Denver, etc) you will lose the station
-CBS HD is gone right now
-If you have CBS as a distant, the channels have changed. You WILL not lose them. NY & LA are 253 & 254 (I think), Denver is 8199 and Chicago is like 8448...scan through these areas, you'll see them


----------



## Guest

One dollar is that it, give me a break I could handle all of this squabbling but for charlie to say we only get one dollar a month while this is going on is an insult.
Exactly how many channels are gone now.Dish needs to do better or they are going to fall by the wayside.


----------



## PACOP

just got off the phone with dtv after holding for 10 minutes. the csr said they have been swamped with dish subs switching over. they told me my locals would be available in april. only 3-4 weeks and im gone as well.


yeah charlie is an einstein. good decision chuck.


----------



## HeavyC

There is an overwhelming amount of TV snobs in this thread. I just don't see the need to tell people they don't need these channels and that they should find something better to watch. Says who? Different strokes for different folks. Liking these channels doesn't mean you are a bad parent, an uncultured slob, or any of the other reasons people are getting talked down to in here. It's almost like some people can't believe there is any reason to get upset over this.


----------



## Jarrett76

Great piece on CNBC. Viacom says they will not give echostar a better deal than directtv and comcast. Also they wont be pushed around. Looks like charlie will have to swallow his pride(and wallet)and pay.


----------



## TonyM

Wesley McMurtrey said:


> One dollar is that it, give me a break I could handle all of this squabbling but for charlie to say we only get one dollar a month while this is going on is an insult.
> Exactly how many channels are gone now.Dish needs to do better or they are going to fall by the wayside.


You get an extra dollar if your CBS is off too.


----------



## SNT

No, it will be the customers that pay.


----------



## Slordak

"Our programming package has so many great channels, it's no longer the America's Top 100 Package, it's now... The America's Top 120 Package!" [And you have the honor of paying $2/month or $3/month more for it!]

(Several days later...)

"Well, America's Top 110 Package, but really, who's counting!"


----------



## TonyM

StinkyPantz said:


> Oh your sooo cool way too cool for TV. Why do you even subscribe to pay TV if you hate TV so much? The fact is we signed up for a specific reason THE CHANEL LINEUP not because we Like Charlie and his giant ego.


not really. I agree with Charlie for sticking up to Viacrap and their blackmail. I could give a rat's ars if I lose MTV, MTV2, BET, and Nickelodeon. Dont ever watch them. Why should my bill go up $1, $2, or more because someone (Viacrap) thinks they're better than someone else and need more money??

I didnt sign up for Dish because of the channel lineup. I signed up because there is no cable in my area and I can't get squat from OTA. So I have my locals through Dish (use to have AT100 but really couldnt find anything on there).

Once summer comes, I would rather sit outside and look at the lake than sitting inside watching TV.


----------



## Guest

Since the GM of KTVT in Dallas won't answer his phone, try visiting him at home.

MAULDIN STEPHEN R
5104 OAK TREE CIR

DALLAS, TX 75287-7514


----------



## davepack

Mike123abc said:


> All the parents complaining about Nick being out really need to get a clue. What are they raising? Fat slobs to make America even more obese?


 Nice generalization. Do you have any idea how I am raising my son? I would guess not.



Mike123abc said:


> THE TELEVISION IS NOT A BABY SITTER!


 Who said it was? Guess what, Mike? I spend as much quality time with my son as I can. We play together, we read lots of books, and yes, we also sit together and watch shows like Dora the Explorer and Blue's Clues. We also like to laugh together watching SpongeBob. Your assumption that parents use television as a babysitter is a stereotype offensive to us parents who do take very active roles in our children's lives.



Mike123abc said:


> The more I see posts complaining about cartoon channels not being on the more I think that they should ban these channels altogether. It is unbelieveable that the US has become so dependent on these channels.


 It's frightening that there are people out there that feel this way. You don't like the channels, so ban them for everybody. Nice.



Mike123abc said:


> Of course I am probably out of touch because I was not allowed to watch TV during the week period (sat morning cartoons was it). Probably most adults over the age of 30 grew up without much TV.


 No rebuttal from me on this one.



Mike123abc said:


> All these posts about having to cancel Dish because they cannot explain to a 3 year old that they cannot watch TV today sound like Viacom employees with talking points posting.


 I don't care who I sound like. As I said before, my son very much enjoys a lot of the educational programming on Noggin and Nick. We spend lots of time watching it together (I PVR it during the day, and we usually watch an episode or two in the evening after I pick him up from daycare). He might only be 3, but so what? He's entitled to enjoy programming just like anyone else. And as I said, it's time we spend together in addition to playing together, reading books, etc.

For me, it's pretty straightforward. If the issue isn't resolved in a week or two, then I take my business elsewhere. It's as simple as that.

Dave


----------



## Gemini365i

Comedy Central, only available on Cable and DirecTV....

Very interesting commercial spot on Comedy Central I saw on CableVision iO.

Nice website also BTW, Ilostmyfavoritechannels.com....

Dish is playing a VERY DANGEROUs game!

JE


----------



## Goodfella

Mike123abc said:


> All the parents complaining about Nick being out really need to get a clue. What are they raising? Fat slobs to make America even more obese?


You know what pal, *you * need the clue.



Mike123abc said:


> Of course I am probably out of touch because I was not allowed to watch TV during the week period (sat morning cartoons was it). Probably most adults over the age of 30 grew up without much TV.


42 here. I watched plenty of TV as a kid. Just because you weren't "allowed" isn't our problem.



Mike123abc said:


> All these posts about having to cancel Dish because they cannot explain to a 3 year old that they cannot watch TV today sound like Viacom employees with talking points posting.


I was about to mention some of the ridiculous "pro Charlie" rhetoric getting thrown around here sounds like DISH employees to me. I don't give a damn how long you've been a member of a web site discussing sat issues. It's when BS like this happens you *do* hear from the disgruntled subscribers (aka "noobs/guests").

Don't let these people that aren't affected ( or pro Charles because he's a great guy looking out for us  )talk you down people.


----------



## SNT

davepack said:


> ...


Dave,
I too have kids. And I too enjoy watching those programs with them. But not watching them is of no concern. There are plenty of other things to do. I could even watch Nemo again. I could read...another book, etc...

The point that was being made, even though it was made rather poorly, is that it shouldn't matter if a child gets to watch a show or not.

-SNT


----------



## greggg

Mike123abc your's has to be one of the worst posts I have seen. My wife and I spend a ton of time with our kids. The TV is not a babysitter as you state. It is an asset and a form of entertainment. We also watch shows like Spongebob as a family. If you don't like that type of show fine. What I am seeing more and more here though are entertainment "snobs" that want to fill up their bandwidth with "The Life of Anton Chekhov". The funny thing is I can appreciate a show like that then turn on Spongebob for a good laugh. You apparently are incapable of that.


----------



## Goodfella

HeavyC said:


> There is an overwhelming amount of TV snobs in this thread. I just don't see the need to tell people they don't need these channels and that they should find something better to watch. Says who? Different strokes for different folks. Liking these channels doesn't mean you are a bad parent, an uncultured slob, or any of the other reasons people are getting talked down to in here. It's almost like some people can't believe there is any reason to get upset over this.


*

AMEN  * HeavyC!!


----------



## SNT

Well, I, for myself don't see a reason to get upset over this.


----------



## PACOP

let one of their favorite channels get pulled and then see who supports charlie. they just feel this way because they aren't being affected. it's not our fault you have poor taste and dont like nick, noggin, vh-1 etc.


----------



## willy

Jarrett76 said:


> Great piece on CNBC. Viacom says they will not give echostar a better deal than directtv and comcast. Also they wont be pushed around. Looks like charlie will have to swallow his pride(and wallet)and pay.


Interesting tactic by viacom here. For all we know (and this is most likely the case), E* is already paying more than D*/comcast. And Viacom wanted to raise it further, and E* said no way. So the above statement from viacom is completely true- but no one says this is what dish is after (lower than D* rates). But clearly leaves the viewer with this impression.

And dont be silly- if Viacom raises rates, then E* will charge us more. His "wallet" as you state- i dont think very many successful large companies have the CEO footing the bill on increased expenses. YOU will pay for it.

So what you are saying is, that you will pay more to keep these channels.


----------



## Paul Secic

Nyte_eyes said:


> Umm, I happen to love VH1 classic, the rest of the channels I could do without.


MTV, MTV2, VH1, GAC, CMT, BET all suck & I could do without them.


----------



## firephoto

I think keeping the personal attacks out of this discussion would be something to think about before clicking the post button.

I stand behind E* on this 100% because they are the ones who have to look out for their customers. Do you think Viacom cares what you, the end user, thinks about their business?? Have you noticed that a lot of Viacoms programming could be put on a third of the channels they have and you would still see ALL the programs they offer? VH1 regularly shows stuff that has been on MTV but gets a "new name" and then there is CMT and their "twist" of VH1 Behind the music shows and the like. All their music channels use a lot of CBS content too. As far as the Nick channels I don't watch them and wouldn't want and kids with half a brain to watch them. They are a great contributor to the dumbing down of our country and are essentially visual crack for kids. You want good programming, let your kids watch PBS and they might learn something usefull. It might not be a cartoon but hey maybe if a kid grows up seeing life as something REAL and not a cartoon they might get a different look on life. Oh and without MTV they might not have the wannabe gangster lowlife attitude either. Hang around some teenage kids that watch MTV all the time and ask yourself if you would want your kids to have that kind of attitude about life.

Losing Viacom isn't much of a loss and Charlie needs to stick by his guns.
Oh I saw a quote somewhere that said Echostar stock was up today and Viacom down...... Imagine that.


----------



## SNT

PACOP said:


> let one of their favorite channels get pulled and then see who supports charlie. they just feel this way because they aren't being affected. it's not our fault you have poor taste and dont like nick, noggin, vh-1 etc.


I like some of those channels. I have said before that I enjoyed watching Bob The Builder, Spongebob, etc with my kids. But if I can't, I will do something else with them. No big deal.

-SNT


----------



## ypsiguy

Jarrett76 said:


> Great piece on CNBC. Viacom says they will not give echostar a better deal than directtv and comcast. Also they wont be pushed around. Looks like charlie will have to swallow his pride(and wallet)and pay.


Comcrap signs these contracts and just passes the cost along to it customers.
That's why they are $20 bucks higher a month for me. They do it also to drive their competitors out of business. D* is losing money and will have to raise rates drastically soon. Channel space is like real estate to companies like Viacom. I think Charlie needs to give PBS Kids the old Nick GAS channel *stat* to prove a point. Viacom's all-or-nothing attitude is BS.


----------



## greggg

Heavyc is my new hero.


----------



## greggg

If someone insinuates that I am a bad parent because I think it's a bad deal that Nick is off, I will respond in kind. Thank you.


----------



## Goodfella

What line are they feeding you folks who have called Dish? (I already called and told them my intentions if it went black). Any pleading or just a boot in the ass?

They seemed concerned about losing my EP revenue (of course I wasn't talking to the ******** pesonally).


----------



## SNT

greggg said:


> If someone insinuates that I am a bad parent because I think it's a bad deal that Nick is off, I will respond in kind. Thank you.


I don't recall anyone insinuating that.

-SNT


----------



## PACOP

:lol:


----------



## Jarrett76

willy said:


> Interesting tactic by viacom here. For all we know (and this is most likely the case), E* is already paying more than D*/comcast. And Viacom wanted to raise it further, and E* said no way. So the above statement from viacom is completely true- but no one says this is what dish is after (lower than D* rates). But clearly leaves the viewer with this impression.
> 
> And dont be silly- if Viacom raises rates, then E* will charge us more. His "wallet" as you state- i dont think very many successful large companies have the CEO footing the bill on increased expenses. YOU will pay for it.
> 
> So what you are saying is, that you will pay more to keep these channels.


Why would I pay more when its so easy to switch to DirectTV. If they had my locals I would. My contract is up in Sept. so I have time to think about it.


----------



## greggg

SNT did you see Mark123abc's post?


----------



## Goodfella

SNT said:


> The point that was being made, even though it was made rather poorly, is that it shouldn't matter if a child gets to watch a show or not.
> 
> -SNT


Would it be ok if the parent decides that or are ya cool with Charles doing it for you?


----------



## Giljorak

Here is an interesting quote from The New York Times:


> Indeed, even today the impact of the dispute is being felt.
> 
> "I have a trader who lives in Bronxville and is an EchoStar subscriber," MR. Greenfield said. "This morning his kids called him complaining that they can't watch Nickelodeon."
> 
> Similarly, every day that Viacom is without EchoStar's subscribers it loses about $2 million in revenue, Mr. Greenfield said. That number could be higher if the stand-off continues into next week, he added.


found here: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/09/business/media/09CND-DISH.html


----------



## SNT

greggg said:


> SNT did you see Mark123abc's post?


I did. Even though is post was not well thought out, I don't believe he said that someone was a bad parent because they don't like losing Nick. I think that you may have taken it a little personal. And that's ok, being a parent myself, I understand.

-SNT


----------



## SNT

Goodfella said:


> Would it be ok if the parent decides that or are ya cool with Charles doing it for you?


He's not doing it for me. I have a choice. As do you.

-SNT


----------



## Guest

While people are arguing about whether kids should be watching TV or if one channel is more worthwhile than another, the point is that we have paid for programming that has been removed. The 'distant' channels should have been replaced with another 'distant' channel that was not dropped (like Atlanta); this should have been done automatically since it is a separate charge.

Dish does not allow us as customers to select only channels we watch. We must buy 'packages' that may contain many channels we don't ever watch, depending on our likes and dislikes. Maybe if Dish would allow us to 'pick and choose' I would have more sympathy for their desire to not have to accept Viacom's 'package'.

Dish did raise their rates and added channels. However, I haven't found anything on those new channels I wanted to watch so wouldn't it be nice if I could tell them to take back the new channels and lower my rate?


----------



## PACOP

thats how i see it. whats good for the goose is good for the gander or should i say PIG.


----------



## James Long

SNT said:


> Dammit, it was a hypothetical question directed towards another poster. If you had read that conversation you would have known that.
> I know full well what the problem is. Please, try to read the whole thread before replying.
> 
> -SNT


More accurately "SNIT", as in "in a snit".
Chill dude. With a temper like that you'll never survive a real attack! And yes, I have read this thread ... from post #1 by ... 



Slordak said:


> "Our programming package has so many great channels, it's no longer the America's Top 100 Package, it's now... The America's Top 120 Package!" [And you have the honor of paying $2/month or $3/month more for it!]
> 
> (Several days later...)
> 
> "Well, America's Top 110 Package, but really, who's counting!"


First, the lie. AT120 is NOT $2 or $3 more than AT100 was ... AT120 with locals is only 1 cent more than AT100 with locals.
Second, *we* are counting. 127 channels remain in AT120 not including locals and the AT180 channels they are opening up (like WAM) to fill the gaps left by Viacom.

JL


----------



## Anthony

There are positives to this dispute:
1) No MTV - the world is now a safer place for our children
2) No Nickelodeon - without Sponge Bob, my kids may now find more time to read a book
3) No Comedy Central - no one was laughing anyway 
4) I have about 150 other channels to look at. Viacom does not contribute to the betterment of our culture. I can live with the situation.


----------



## SNT

Unfortunatley that is not the world we live in. That world was created by the Viacoms and the Disneys.


----------



## Goodfella

SNT said:


> He's not doing it for me. I have a choice. As do you.
> 
> -SNT


Really convenient too isn't it?  I can't for the life of me figure out you Charlie lovers here. I really can't. That said; most of the Charles fans are probably just bored and are enjoying pissing off people who are highly irritated already.


----------



## ypsiguy

Jarrett76 said:


> Great piece on CNBC. Viacom says they will not give echostar a better deal than directtv and comcast. Also they wont be pushed around. Looks like charlie will have to swallow his pride(and wallet)and pay.


Won't happen..He'll run a Viacon-less system, and I will stay with Dish. I am willing to save $20 bucks a month and lose the Viacoms. Comcrap digital is almost $70 bucks a month for me. D* is losing money, so their rates will skyrocket soon.


----------



## SNT

justalurker said:


> More accurately "SNIT", as in "in a snit".
> Chill dude. With a temper like that you'll never survive a real attack! And yes, I have read this thread ... from post #1 by ...
> 
> JL


If that were the case, then you did not follow along, just as you are doing now. And, I am sorry but I don't not understand the "real attack" reference.

-SNT


----------



## willy

xafterx said:


> Dish does not allow us as customers to select only channels we watch. We must buy 'packages' that may contain many channels we don't ever watch, depending on our likes and dislikes. Maybe if Dish would allow us to 'pick and choose' I would have more sympathy for their desire to not have to accept Viacom's 'package'.
> ?


Funny, this is part of Charlie's gripe. Viacom was *insisting* that they put new channels in the AT60 package, and tying this in as a requirement for renegotiating CBS.

I dont think Viacom wants an entirely a la carte package. Viacom and all providers want to bundle them together, so they can sell more advertising for a certain known customer base.

I dont think E* wants an entirely a la carte package. Then thier profit is less predictable.


----------



## Goodfella

Anthony said:


> There are positives to this dispute:
> 1) No MTV - the world is now a safer place for our children
> 2) No Nickelodeon - without Sponge Bob, my kids may now find more time to read a book
> 3) No Comedy Central - no one was laughing anyway
> 4) I have about 150 other channels to look at. Viacom does not contribute to the betterment of our culture. I can live with the situation.


Is the princaple of the whole damn thing lost on you people who don't care about TV? Ironic that the people that don't care about TV are avidly pursuing a thread on satellite TV website. What the hell are you doing here?


----------



## SNT

Goodfella said:


> Really convenient too isn't it?  I can't for the life of me figure out you Charlie lovers here. I really can't. That said; most of the Charles fans are probably just bored and are enjoying pissing off people who are highly irritated already.


I am a lover of my lower rates, nothing else.
You are half right, even though it wasn't your intention, I am enjoying this whole thing. The most enjoyable part is the passion people have for a few programs that they may have to go elsewhere to see.

-SNT


----------



## llukesh

My complaints are that over the last few days, messages on the channels I watch (obvious to me now, are viacom channels) began scrolling across the screen, then immediately a black bar covered a third of the screen to cover up the text. I knew nothing about the situation until today. Also, I believe E/D should have accepted the offer to keep the programming running, then sued V for the right to cancel the other V channels forced upon them. Keep the customer's first in your mind, and take legal action to correct the injustices. 

I've read all the posts here today, and everyone has valid points; but, I think both party's could have worked this out; however, they haven't really been in 'good standing' with each other since the superbowl 'situation' between the two of them. I believe it's a little 'pissing match' that could have been handled much more appropriately.


----------



## Slordak

justalurker said:


> First, the lie. AT120 is NOT $2 or $3 more than AT100 was ... AT120 with locals is only 1 cent more than AT100 with locals.
> Second, *we* are counting. 127 channels remain in AT120 not including locals and the AT180 channels they are opening up (like WAM) to fill the gaps left by Viacom.
> 
> JL


I have the "America's Top 120 Value Pak" and it went up $2/month. That's not a lie and it's certainly not a penny.

As far as 127 channels... No dice. I don't agree for even a moment that every "CD Music" channel should count as a separate channel. Dish is counting this as, what, 32 channels?


----------



## uncdanwrong

The couple of bucks Charlie is offering to subscribers is doing more harm than good. Here's what E* should do to help win some PR battles. All AT60 subs would receive AT120 for an indefinite time for no extra charge. Likewise, AT120 would get AT180, and AT180 would get a free premium. AEP subs would receive a $12 credit for PPV. Heck, Charlie could write it off as a promotional expense. In a perfect world Viacom would be broken up by the Feds, but at least E* could do more to win the PR war in this world.


----------



## davpel

I'm a long time member of this site (as well as dbsforums) who mostly lurks. I haven't posted on either site in a while, and I really hate to return here with this type of post, but I feel I must.

First to Mike123abc: You are a complete idiot!! Your post is one of the most insulting messages that I've ever read on ANY message board. Who the heck are you to make presumptions about how others are raising their children. Like many posters here, I have two young kids who love many of the Nick shows, and I too use Nick programming as a reward for completing chores, etc. In fact, after bath time, reading time, etc, the whole family typically ends our day together with a visit with Spongebob or the Rugrats. And there is NOTHING wrong with that whatsover. As for your own personal history growing up in an amish community, I say . . .whatever! I'm in my mid-30s and I grew up in a house where the TV was on plenty. It certainly didn't negatively affect my life; in fact, I think I learned a great deal from the television I watched as a kid (along with the books I read, etc.) I certainly am not going to raise my children according to the moronic values of your parents. Quite frankly, if you have such a negative attitude about TV, I really have a hard time understanding why you would spend so much time posting here. 

As for everyone else here who repeatedly make broad presumptions about what channels are worthwhile and which are garbage, I say: GET A DAMN CLUE. We all subscribe to Dish for different reasons. Many people here indicate that they initially switched to Dish for price and they applaud Charlie for towing the line. Fine. But price had little to do with MY decision to become a Dish subscriber (I wanted a Dishplayer!). As for channels, I can tell you that CBS and Nick are probably the two most watched channels in my house, and Comedy Central, VH1 and (at times) MTV are close behind. With Survivor in the middle of its run and the NCAA tourney about to begin, having CBS is of even greater importance to me. Yes, I realize that I can pick up my CBS OTA, but then I'll be giving up the ability to use my PVRs. I paid good money to Charlie for several 501 receivers and, due to a pretty hectic life, need the ability to timeshift. 

For those of who you don't want or don't need the Viacom channels, great. But for me and my family, these aren't petty complaints. I've been a Dish subscriber for quite a number of years, but I won't put up with a long stalemate. Charlie can say what he wants about Viacom being unfair, but the fact of the matter is that none of the other providers have gotten themselves into this predicament. Thankfully, I haven't been under a yearly contact for quite a while and have choices. I'm giving Charlie one week to resolve this dispute and get the channels back on. Otherwise, I'm off to DirectTV. I called them today and the cost of changing over (incl. two Directtvos) will be minimal (I'll simply ebay my 501s to recoup the cost of changing equipment).

Venting over. 

David


----------



## Guest

llukesh said:


> My complaints are that over the last few days, messages on the channels I watch (obvious to me now, are viacom channels) began scrolling across the screen, then immediately a black bar covered a third of the screen to cover up the text. I knew nothing about the situation until today. Also, I believe E/D should have accepted the offer to keep the programming running, then sued V for the right to cancel the other V channels forced upon them. Keep the customer's first in your mind, and take legal action to correct the injustices.
> 
> I've read all the posts here today, and everyone has valid points; but, I think both party's could have worked this out; however, they haven't really been in 'good standing' with each other since the superbowl 'situation' between the two of them. I believe it's a little 'pissing match' that could have been handled much more appropriately.


Here here!


----------



## James Long

Slordak said:


> I have the "America's Top 120 Value Pak" and it went up $2/month. That's not a lie and it's certainly not a penny.


You must not have locals. They zapped the HBO subscribers by a buck.



Slordak said:


> As far as 127 channels... No dice. I don't agree for even a moment that every "CD Music" channel should count as a separate channel. Dish is counting this as, what, 32 channels?


Dish has counted their music channels ever since DirecTV started counting theirs. That's why it was "AT100 CD". But still, that's 127 channels plus your RSN(s) and alternates and PPV availability.

JL


----------



## Goodfella

davpel said:


> I'm a long time member of this site (as well as dbsforums) who mostly lurks. I haven't posted on either site in a while, and I really hate to return here with this type of post, but I feel I must.
> 
> First to Mike123abc: You are a complete idiot!! Your post is one of the most insulting messages that I've ever read on ANY message board. Who the heck are you to make presumptions about how others are raising their children. Like many posters here, I have two young kids who love many of the Nick shows, and I too use Nick programming as a reward for completing chores, etc. In fact, after bath time, reading time, etc, the whole family typically ends our day together with a visit with Spongebob or the Rugrats. And there is NOTHING wrong with that whatsover. As for your own personal history growing up in an amish community, I say . . .whatever! I'm in my mid-30s and I grew up in a house where the TV was on plenty. It certainly didn't negatively affect my life; in fact, I think I learned a great deal from the television I watched as a kid (along with the books I read, etc.) I certainly am not going to raise my children according to the moronic values of your parents. Quite frankly, if you have such a negative attitude about TV, I really have a hard time understanding why you would spend so much time posting here.
> 
> As for everyone else here who repeatedly make broad presumptions about what channels are worthwhile and which are garbage, I say: GET A DAMN CLUE. We all subscribe to Dish for different reasons. Many people here indicate that they initially switched to Dish for price and they applaud Charlie for towing the line. Fine. But price had little to do with MY decision to become a Dish subscriber (I wanted a Dishplayer!). As for channels, I can tell you that CBS and Nick are probably the two most watched channels in my house, and Comedy Central, VH1 and (at times) MTV are close behind. With Survivor in the middle of its run and the NCAA tourney about to begin, having CBS is of even greater importance to me. Yes, I realize that I can pick up my CBS OTA, but then I'll be giving up the ability to use my PVRs. I paid good money to Charlie for several 501 receivers and, due to a pretty hectic life, need the ability to timeshift.
> 
> For those of who you don't want or don't need the Viacom channels, great. But for me and my family, these aren't petty complaints. I've been a Dish subscriber for quite a number of years, but I won't put up with a long stalemate. Charlie can say what he wants about Viacom being unfair, but the fact of the matter is that none of the other providers have gotten themselves into this predicament. Thankfully, I haven't been under a yearly contact for quite a while and have choices. I'm giving Charlie one week to resolve this dispute and get the channels back on. Otherwise, I'm off to DirectTV. I called them today and the cost of changing over (incl. two Directtvos) will be minimal (I'll simply ebay my 501s to recoup the cost of changing equipment).
> 
> Venting over.
> 
> David


David, Beautiful post. I concur 110%


----------



## marko

It is almost nice not having Noggin/Nick since my kids watch them way too much. Time to point the antenna to PBS for pbs kids, probably better shows on there anyway.


----------



## rbyers

You know, I just realized that the Charlie bashers are missing not one, but two golden opportunities. First, they can switch to D* or Cable and get more channels and better reception for less money. Second, they can call their brokers and sell Echostar short. Since Charlie is such a crumby businessman the stock will shortly be in the tank, they will make a fortune, retire and watch D* on their new HD DirecTivo.


----------



## nicepants

Interesting in that article on the new york times site it states that for every day that these stations are dark, Viacom is losing $2 Million in revenue. They'll cave soon, and those who switch to D* or cable in the meantime will probably regret it, because their rates are going to be higher than ours when viacom returns.


----------



## kstuart

... the previous observation (unfortunately I can't remember who, possibly R King?) that the Dish criticizers are "registered ___ 2004" or else guests, is still holding almost 100%.


----------



## PACOP

yeah but what do you think dish is losing per day.


----------



## Guest

Once the top 100 became the top 92. Dishnetwork was in breech, and anybody willing to obtain an attorney could easily get out of their contract. It's probably wiser to see what happens though, as attorney's are expensive. I would suggest scaling down existing programming as a way of showing dishnetwork how unhappy you are about what has transpired. It seems awful bush league to call on your customers to contact Viacom though!


----------



## rbyers

I missed something. A couple of you guys who are going to D* said you had 921s. Want to sell?


----------



## TonyM

rbyers said:


> You know, I just realized that the Charlie bashers are missing not one, but two golden opportunities. First, they can switch to D* or Cable and get more channels and better reception for less money. Second, they can call their brokers and sell Echostar short. Since Charlie is such a crumby businessman the stock will shortly be in the tank, they will make a fortune, retire and watch D* on their new HD DirecTivo.


I wish I had those opportunities

Where I live, cable is not an option....there is no cable for 20 miles!!
If I wanted DirectTv, it would have to be through Pegasus....and their extra fees.

uh, no thanks.


----------



## undefined

It doesn't really matter who's fault it is. As a consumer (and a Dish Network subscriber) I want certain channels. One of those channels is CBS (Denver) - another is CBS-HD, the very reason I got into a contract with Dish and got a Dish 811. They are not able to deliver the content that I want anymore. I expect to either be released from my contractual obligation to them, so that I may find another provider, or receive a significant compensation for my troubles. A free DVR, or perhaps an upgrade from the AT 120 to AT 180, or free premium channels, or gratis service until they resume offering what I pay for.

Sorry for the rant. $2 isn't enough to shut me up


----------



## TonyM

smithrl00 said:


> Once the top 100 became the top 92. Dishnetwork was in breech, and anybody willing to obtain an attorney could easily get out of their contract.


no it isnt...read the terms & conditions.. "Programming is subject to change at any time"


----------



## TonyM

undefined said:


> It doesn't really matter who's fault it is. As a consumer (and a Dish Network subscriber) I want certain channels. One of those channels is CBS (Denver) - another is CBS-HD, the very reason I got into a contract with Dish and got a Dish 811. They are not able to deliver the content that I want anymore. I expect to either be released from my contractual obligation to them, so that I may find another provider, or receive a significant compensation for my troubles. A free DVR, or perhaps an upgrade from the AT 120 to AT 180, or free premium channels, or gratis service until they resume offering what I pay for.
> 
> Sorry for the rant. $2 isn't enough to shut me up


Its been 15 hours and you want some huge compensation??


----------



## Goodfella

kstuart said:


> ... the previous observation (unfortunately I can't remember who, possibly R King?) that the Dish criticizers are "registered ___ 2004" or else guests, is still holding almost 100%.


SO? Has there ever been anything this significant to discuss? Of course there is going to be a huge influx of new people, mostly unhappy ones. Not rocket science.


----------



## undefined

TonyM said:


> Its been 15 hours and you want some huge compensation??


It's doesn't matter to me if it had been 15 minutes. I am paying for my local channels and Charlie, in his infinite wisdom, decided to discontinue carrying one of my local channels. You're damned right I expect them to make it up to me. I don't recall signing up for the "Almost all of your local networks" package.


----------



## nicepants

PACOP said:


> yeah but what do you think dish is losing per day.


Not that much. If people start jumping ship then Charlie's going to have to worry a little more. But I think Viacom will cave in first. Otherwise those of you on cable & D* are going to see even LONGER commercial breaks. They're already around 5 minutes for most shows on MTV and VH1.


----------



## ypsiguy

marko said:


> It is almost nice not having Noggin/Nick since my kids watch them way too much. Time to point the antenna to PBS for pbs kids, probably better shows on there anyway.


Send Charlie an email to ask for PBS Kids, he mentioned it as a possible replacement channel last night. PBS is much more deserving of our support than Viacom. Higher quality programming too... I have PBS-HD OTA and it is a great channel as well.


----------



## undefined

nicepants said:


> Not that much. If people start jumping ship then Charlie's going to have to worry a little more. But I think Viacom will cave in first. Otherwise those of you on cable & D* are going to see even LONGER commercial breaks. They're already around 5 minutes for most shows on MTV and VH1.


I don't know what the rest of you have seen today, but in my office (tech company w/ about 100 employees) of the 5 Dish network subscribers I am friends with, three of them have already ordered either Comcast or DirecTV (one DTV, two Comcast). I'm still with Dish, as is a colleague who just signed up.


----------



## Chris Blount

New press release from Dish:

WHAT: EchoStar Communications Corporation will hold a conference
event today inviting members of the media to tune in to
today's live "Charlie Chat" broadcast, which airs on DISH
Network's channel 101. EchoStar's Chairman and CEO, Charles
Ergen, will host the call and broadcast. A live conference
call in listen-only mode is available.

WHEN: Tuesday, March 9, 2004
5:00 p.m. (MT)

WHERE: DISH Network's Channel 101
Conference Call

HOW: Tune into DISH Network's Channel 101
Call into today's conference call at 800-616-6729. Please
reference: CBS Takedown Call

No replay will be available

WHO: EchoStar Communications Corporation (NasdaqISH) serves
over 9 million satellite TV customers through its DISH
Network(TM), and is a leading U.S. provider of advanced
digital television services. DISH Network's services include
hundreds of video and audio channels, Interactive TV, HDTV,
sports and international programming, together with
professional installation and 24-hour customer service. DISH
Network is the leader in the sale of digital video recorders
(DVRs). Visit EchoStar's DISH Network at www.dishnetwork.com
or call 800-333-DISH (3474).

CONTACT: EchoStar Communications Corporation
Steve Caulk, 303-723-2010
[email protected]

SOURCE: EchoStar Communications Corporation


----------



## Goodfella

TonyM said:


> no it isnt...read the terms & conditions.. "Programming is subject to change at any time"


Wait and see ole buddy. Contracts WILL be broke.


----------



## Poosh

TonyM said:


> no it isnt...read the terms & conditions.. "Programming is subject to change at any time"


But I'm not sure if it wouldn't be to easy for a decently talented lawyer to get around that it isn't really a programming change as per say it is a programming decline or reduction. or even better yet an absence of programming.?

I don't know how I feel about all this I have been a dish sub for three yers have really enjoyed it. But the kids do watch nick I do watch the mtv's and comedy central. We can live with it out but what if I don't want to well I could change. The main thing I get is that I feel that this is just a big fight between dish and viacom and we get stuck in the middle. But such is life you know. So I will wait it out a few weeks see what happens then make a descision based on what is available. do I go to the local cable again that I HATED and give them a 2nd shot and pay more or go to Direct and pay more and see what they got I dunno just have to wait a bit and see. But it does suck still but again life does suck some times. No need to get your panties in a wad.


----------



## TonyM

Goodfella said:


> Wait and see ole buddy. Contracts WILL be broke.


First off, I ain't "your ole buddy"

2nd...you can break your contract...and pay a cancel fee.


----------



## Goodfella

undefined said:


> I don't know what the rest of you have seen today, but in my office (tech company w/ about 100 employees) of the 5 Dish network subscribers I am friends with, three of them have already ordered either Comcast or DirecTV (one DTV, two Comcast). I'm still with Dish, as is a colleague who just signed up.


Here's what I said earlier (followed with additional posts in agreement)...

_Play games with someone else's dime and time. I don't plan to be your pawn pal. $100 per month from me and 4 others that I know of will be out the door in a couple days. $6000 a year that I know of off the top of my head, out the door. (no I won't let it hit me in the ass). Complete BS. Thanks for the heads up. Good luck collecting broken contracts and the like.
I'd also love to see the attitudes these folks here who "could give a shi* about the channels affected" now if their fav channels were gone.

This will hurt DISH beyond anything you've imagined. Thanks for the $2 too, almost makes up for the $3 increase I got last week before you dropped channels. You're playing with fire Charles. Smell the smoke now._


----------



## Melishark

ypsiguy said:


> Won't happen..He'll run a Viacon-less system, and I will stay with Dish. I am willing to save $20 bucks a month and lose the Viacoms. Comcrap digital is almost $70 bucks a month for me. D* is losing money, so their rates will skyrocket soon.


 You Charlie lovers just don't get it do you ?

This is a BUSINESS. Charlie is losing business ! You complain about a 6 cent increase per month but when he loses customers ( and he is ) guess who will see a rate increase then ?

That would be YOU Charlie supporters.

It's business .. plain and simple.

I'd much rather pay the 6 cents a month and let Viacom "win" then see my bill hiked up $10 a month because of the customers that are leaving.

Keep in mind .. Charlie still has to pay his bills. If he loses business - he loses money. He has to make that up somewhere. :nono2:


----------



## Goodfella

TonyM said:


> First off, I ain't "your ole buddy"
> 
> 2nd...you can break your contract...and pay a cancel fee.


I won't pay a fee. Bet on it.


----------



## Karl Foster

kstuart said:


> ... the previous observation (unfortunately I can't remember who, possibly R King?) that the Dish criticizers are "registered ___ 2004" or else guests, is still holding almost 100%.


There are many of us who have been here for a long time 

Charlie can sit on his soap box and defend his principles all he wants. These stations are popular, with CBS being the most watched network. People will leave. Maybe not in droves, but in the long run it will be harder to bring in new subscribers. When I signed up, I had expectation to receive the stations I signed up for. When Directv threatened to drop Trio, I was pretty pissed off. Although I don't watch that station much, I expected that when I tuned to channel 315, it would be there.

I guess what I am trying to say is that someone needs to back down, and if it means Charlie has to back down to keep his subscribers happy, then he needs to eat crow and do it. He also needs to keep his negotations behind closed doors and not freak out his customers every time new negotiations come up.


----------



## Guest

davpel said:


> I'm a long time member of this site (as well as dbsforums) who mostly lurks. I haven't posted on either site in a while, and I really hate to return here with this type of post, but I feel I must.
> 
> First to Mike123abc: You are a complete idiot!! Your post is one of the most insulting messages that I've ever read on ANY message board. Who the heck are you to make presumptions about how others are raising their children. Like many posters here, I have two young kids who love many of the Nick shows, and I too use Nick programming as a reward for completing chores, etc. In fact, after bath time, reading time, etc, the whole family typically ends our day together with a visit with Spongebob or the Rugrats. And there is NOTHING wrong with that whatsover. As for your own personal history growing up in an amish community, I say . . .whatever! I'm in my mid-30s and I grew up in a house where the TV was on plenty. It certainly didn't negatively affect my life; in fact, I think I learned a great deal from the television I watched as a kid (along with the books I read, etc.) I certainly am not going to raise my children according to the moronic values of your parents. Quite frankly, if you have such a negative attitude about TV, I really have a hard time understanding why you would spend so much time posting here.
> 
> As for everyone else here who repeatedly make broad presumptions about what channels are worthwhile and which are garbage, I say: GET A DAMN CLUE. We all subscribe to Dish for different reasons. Many people here indicate that they initially switched to Dish for price and they applaud Charlie for towing the line. Fine. But price had little to do with MY decision to become a Dish subscriber (I wanted a Dishplayer!). As for channels, I can tell you that CBS and Nick are probably the two most watched channels in my house, and Comedy Central, VH1 and (at times) MTV are close behind. With Survivor in the middle of its run and the NCAA tourney about to begin, having CBS is of even greater importance to me. Yes, I realize that I can pick up my CBS OTA, but then I'll be giving up the ability to use my PVRs. I paid good money to Charlie for several 501 receivers and, due to a pretty hectic life, need the ability to timeshift.
> 
> For those of who you don't want or don't need the Viacom channels, great. But for me and my family, these aren't petty complaints. I've been a Dish subscriber for quite a number of years, but I won't put up with a long stalemate. Charlie can say what he wants about Viacom being unfair, but the fact of the matter is that none of the other providers have gotten themselves into this predicament. Thankfully, I haven't been under a yearly contact for quite a while and have choices. I'm giving Charlie one week to resolve this dispute and get the channels back on. Otherwise, I'm off to DirectTV. I called them today and the cost of changing over (incl. two Directtvos) will be minimal (I'll simply ebay my 501s to recoup the cost of changing equipment).
> 
> Venting over.
> 
> David


Very well put!


----------



## TonyM

Goodfella said:


> Here's what I said earlier (followed with additional posts in agreement)...
> 
> _Play games with someone else's dime and time. I don't plan to be your pawn pal. $100 per month from me and 4 others that I know of will be out the door in a couple days. $6000 a year that I know of off the top of my head, out the door. (no I won't let it hit me in the ass). Complete BS. Thanks for the heads up. Good luck collecting broken contracts and the like.
> I'd also love to see the attitudes these folks here who "could give a shi* about the channels affected" now if their fav channels were gone.
> 
> This will hurt DISH beyond anything you've imagined. Thanks for the $2 too, almost makes up for the $3 increase I got last week before you dropped channels. You're playing with fire Charles. Smell the smoke now._


THEN LEAVE!!!! Nobody is stopping you!


----------



## Jarrett76

Contracts like these dont hold up. For example when I managed a video store we had every customer sign a contract on their receipt. Did that stop them from not paying late fees? No. All we could hope for was the return of the product. I would imagine if the dish contract was broke, and equipment returned there is little that could be done. Isnt the contract about the equipment costs?


----------



## davpel

I agree 100%. I used to post at dbsforums quite a bit when I first became a Dish customer, but that was because I had a Dishplayer and, as everyone here knows, there was always something interesting to talk about with respect to that particular product!!! Once I switched to a more stable receiver, I haven't really found the need to post (or even lurk as much). However, this issue certainly brought me out of the woodwork, and I'm sure the same goes for many other newbies and longtime lurkers now posting here. While there may be some "plants" here, I really doubt that explains all the opposition.

Also, I really don't understand how taking Viacom's side in this dispute makes me or anyone else a "Charlie basher." I've been a relatively happy Dish customer for several years, but I think Charlie is dead wrong with respect to how he has handled this problem. I guess in order to avoid being labeled a "Charlie basher" around here you must agree with him 100% of the time.

Finally, you can check out my "join" date (or do a search in the dbsforums archives) to see that I am not some anti-Dish/pro-Viacom troll. But I will say this: at this particular point in history, I am more than happy to give Viacom the benefit of the doubt given their continued support for Howard Stern in the face of the firestorm drummed up by Bush and the religious right. Now if Charlie were in a dispute with Clear Channel, I might be a little more reluctant to jump ship!

Sorry for getting off topic a bit.

David



Goodfella said:


> SO? Has there ever been anything this significant to discuss? Of course there is going to be a huge influx of new people, mostly unhappy ones. Not rocket science.


----------



## Goodfella

TonyM said:


> THEN LEAVE!!!! Nobody is stopping you!


Good answer. I think I said I'd give it a week last night. That's it. Now start antagonizing another pissed off subscriber will ya?


----------



## Melishark

TonyM said:


> THEN LEAVE!!!! Nobody is stopping you!


How about YOU just pay the extra 6 cents a month !!

We shouldn't have to leave .. we should have been given the choice to pay !

Don't worry though - after all is said and done and we do all leave -- YOU WILL be paying out the nose so ol boy Charlie can still pay his bills.

We WILL get the last laugh. :lol:


----------



## Chris Blount

davpel said:


> I agree 100%. I used to post at dbsforums quite a bit when I first became a Dish customer, but that was because I had a Dishplayer and, as everyone here knows, there was always something interesting to talk about with respect to that particular product!!! Once I switched to a more stable receiver, I haven't really found the need to post (or even lurk as much). However, this issue certainly brought me out of the woodwork, and I'm sure the same goes for many other newbies and longtime lurkers now posting here. While there may be some "plants" here, I really doubt that explains all the opposition.
> 
> Also, I really don't understand how taking Viacom's side in this dispute makes me or anyone else a "Charlie basher." I've been a relatively happy Dish customer for several years, but I think Charlie is dead wrong with respect to how he has handled this problem. I guess in order to avoid being labeled a "Charlie basher" around here you must agree with him 100% of the time.
> 
> Finally, you can check out my "join" date (or do a search in the dbsforums archives) to see that I am not some anti-Dish/pro-Viacom troll. But I will say this: at this particular point in history, I am more than happy to give Viacom the benefit of the doubt given their continued support for Howard Stern in the face of the firestorm drummed up by Bush and the religious right. Now if Charlie were in a dispute with Clear Channel, I might be a little more reluctant to jump ship!
> 
> Sorry for getting off topic a bit.
> 
> David


Very well put David. I think this whole situation is rediculous and blame both sides. Charlie and Viacom know the stakes and if two professional business people can't come to an agreement, it's bad business.

Trump would have fired them both.


----------



## Goodfella

Karl Foster said:


> There are many of us who have been here for a long time
> 
> Charlie can sit on his soap box and defend his principles all he wants. These stations are popular, with CBS being the most watched network. People will leave. Maybe not in droves, but in the long run it will be harder to bring in new subscribers. When I signed up, I had expectation to receive the stations I signed up for. When Directv threatened to drop Trio, I was pretty pissed off. Although I don't watch that station much, I expected that when I tuned to channel 315, it would be there.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say is that someone needs to back down, and if it means Charlie has to back down to keep his subscribers happy, then he needs to eat crow and do it. He also needs to keep his negotations behind closed doors and not freak out his customers every time new negotiations come up.


Well said Karl.


----------



## TonyM

Melishark said:


> How about YOU just pay the extra 6 cents a month !!
> 
> We shouldn't have to leave .. we should have been given the choice to pay !
> 
> Don't worry though - after all is said and done and we do all leave -- YOU WILL be paying out the nose so ol boy Charlie can still pay his bills.
> 
> We WILL get the last laugh. :lol:


I wont be paying out the nose....All I have is locals 
and they will stay 5.99


----------



## Mike123abc

davpel said:


> First to Mike123abc: You are a complete idiot!! Your post is one of the most insulting messages that I've ever read on ANY message board. Who the heck are you to make presumptions about how others are raising their children. Like many posters here, I have two young kids who love many of the Nick shows, and I too use Nick programming as a reward for completing chores, etc. In fact, after bath time, reading time, etc, the whole family typically ends our day together with a visit with Spongebob or the Rugrats. And there is NOTHING wrong with that whatsover. As for your own personal history growing up in an amish community, I say . . .whatever! I'm in my mid-30s and I grew up in a house where the TV was on plenty. It certainly didn't negatively affect my life; in fact, I think I learned a great deal from the television I watched as a kid (along with the books I read, etc.) I certainly am not going to raise my children according to the moronic values of your parents. Quite frankly, if you have such a negative attitude about TV, I really have a hard time understanding why you would spend so much time posting here.
> David


The point of my post was not that TV is a deadly sin, but it is just TV, most people in America over the age of 30 managed to grow up without having to watch these channels... Mainly because (not counting CBS of course) they DID NOT EXIST 20+ years ago. Yet we all managed to grow up.

People are posting on this network that without Spongebob their lives are ruined, and they cannot bear to tell their poor 3 year old that there is no Spongebob on today. Well if it is that important switch providers or go get a video. Walmart probably has some in the closeout bin for $5.

Yes, Echostar not carrying Viacom is a bad deal for both companies. I do not expect that it will last a long time. If it is E* will probably be in more serious trouble because each of the other big conglomerates will want the same thing when they renew. Believe me if Viacom were to give in, every consumer of DBS and cable would eventually save money. The other conglomerates would see that they cannot just raise prices all they want.

Let me assure you that tomorrow if Dish and Viacom are still fighting the sun will still rise in the east...


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

Melishark said:


> I'd much rather pay the 6 cents a month and let Viacom "win" then see my bill hiked up $10 a month because of the customers that are leaving.


Except neither Charlie, nor anyone else really cares about those of us who are leaving and we ARE leaving.

In my checkbook, there is no such thing as "brand loyalty"....it's who gives me a better deal.

I don't live to give Charlie NOR Rupert a more comfortable life....I only live to give MYSELF the best deal for my money....and right now, that is NOT DISHNetwork!!!!


----------



## BobMurdoch

I just find it hard to absorb threats from posters with less than 20 posts. Can't shake the feeling that it is the same folks posting multiple times to make it look like an army of consumers is upset.

Hey, I hate losing channels too, and I realize that he just gave a late Christmas present to cable and DirecTV with this E* marketing nightmare but someone has to try and stop the relentless gouging that George Steinbrenner, Disney, Comcast, and every other content owner has perpetuated on the American TV public for the last 15 years.

If not now, when?
If not Charlie, who?

Personally, I'm looking forward to some big HD announcements once this fracas blows over to entice the lost sheep back into the fold (or hit them with some serious buyers remorse for jumping ship to a new long term contract elsewhere)


----------



## ypsiguy

Melishark said:


> You Charlie lovers just don't get it do you ?
> 
> This is a BUSINESS. Charlie is losing business ! You complain about a 6 cent increase per month but when he loses customers ( and he is ) guess who will see a rate increase then ?
> 
> That would be YOU Charlie supporters.
> 
> It's business .. plain and simple.
> 
> I'd much rather pay the 6 cents a month and let Viacom "win" then see my bill hiked up $10 a month because of the customers that are leaving.
> 
> Keep in mind .. Charlie still has to pay his bills. If he loses business - he loses money. He has to make that up somewhere. :nono2:


Typical opinion of someone who buys Viacon's lies. They're right now saying on SpikeTV that we're gonna lose it too, when we have a contract till 2005. 
If Charlie has to play a little hardball to keep rates down, he has my full support. If Viacom wants to use "fear" motivation, I don't want their crap.


----------



## Goodfella

BobMurdoch said:


> I just find it hard to absorb threats from posters with less than 20 posts. Can't shake the feeling that it is the same folks posting multiple times to make it look like an army of consumers is upset.


I don't find your difficulty "absorbing threats" too surprising. You obviously aren't reading some of them. 20 posts, joined today, etc. has just been addressed. READ.


----------



## Throwbot

BobMurdoch said:


> I just find it hard to absorb threats from posters with less than 20 posts. Can't shake the feeling that it is the same folks posting multiple times to make it look like an army of consumers is upset.
> 
> Hey, I hate losing channels too, and I realize that he just gave a late Christmas present to cable and DirecTV with this E* marketing nightmare but someone has to try and stop the relentless gouging that George Steinbrenner, Disney, Comcast, and every other content owner has perpetuated on the American TV public for the last 15 years.
> 
> If not now, when?
> If not Charlie, who?
> 
> Personally, I'm looking forward to some big HD announcements once this fracas blows over to entice the lost sheep back into the fold (or hit them with some serious buyers remorse for jumping ship to a new long term contract elsewhere)


Well said Bob


----------



## Lurker

What is the distinction between channels that say "off the air" and channels that are removed from the guide?


----------



## Mike123abc

This thread is filled with tons of new people to DBStalk screaming about the world is ending withotu Viacom. Now it is probable that these people were happy with Dish until today, and now that Viacom is gone they finally got upset enough to go to the internet, seek out information and start posting.

It would also be a good way for viacom employees to try to shift net opinion. Perhaps Chris could look up the IP addresses of those posting them and see if they are all coming out of Viacom.


----------



## Melishark

BobMurdoch said:


> I just find it hard to absorb threats from posters with less than 20 posts. Can't shake the feeling that it is the same folks posting multiple times to make it look like an army of consumers is upset.


 Perhaps the people with less than 20 posts are people like me ... the ones who feel they have been screwed over ... and they came here to this board to voice their opinions.

Simple as that.

We'll know in the next few days just how many angry customers there really are. If Charlie sucks it up and pays .. you'll know there were a lot of us.


----------



## Throwbot

President Charley E. Strong leadership in times of change.


----------



## Guest

Here's the message that I sent to both Charlie ([email protected]) and Mel Karmazin ([email protected]) President and COO of Viacom: 

I am sending this message to both parties involved in this mess. This situation should never have gotten to this point and I hold you both responsible for it. 

Charlie – I respect you for a valiant effort in trying to hold the line on our rates. However, I think in the short term Echostar should have found a way to keep the programming in place and have eaten the extra cost. In the long run this is going to end up costing you far more from lost customers. In addition, this should have been better communicated to the customers ahead of time, such as via snail mail or e-mail to registered users. I was out of town over the weekend so didn’t get to see any of the messages playing on the channels in question (which I understand you tried to block anyway). Also, this $1 refund is a joke. I take this as more of an insult than an attempt at compensation. Based on my usage of the affected channels and the number of channels in relation to my package, I think something along the lines of $3 ~ $5 per month would have been more appropriate. 

Mel – Based on the press coverage of this event and my knowledge of Charlie’s no-nonsense attitude, I believe that Viacom is placing unreasonable demands on Echostar in this process. It seems to me that your rate hikes and channel coverage requirements are absurd. 

I would expect this situation to be resolved quickly. I’m not a terribly patient person and I can promise that if this thing drags on for any length of time it will affect how I spend my money. Charlie, I recently had cable run to my home to allow for internet access only. I can easily make a call and add digital cable and throw your dish away. I’ve been a Top 150 (180 now) customer for coming up on four years. That’s over $500 a year you’d be losing from me. Mel, I have a 3 year old at home who really likes the Nick cartoons. Now whether I get your stations over Dish or via cable doesn’t really matter to me. However, if this continues for any length of time I can promise that the other money I spend on your products (namely many Dora and Spongebob DVD’s and toys) will stop. I’ll boycott any Nick product or product that has anything to do with a Viacom company. 

Thanks for your time. I’m looking forward to a quick resolution to this.


----------



## Throwbot

The math
9000000-  =$ +  $ -V$ = (you guessed it!) $1.00


----------



## catnap1972

ypsiguy said:


> Typical opinion of someone who buys Viacon's lies. They're right now saying on SpikeTV that we're gonna lose it too, when we have a contract till 2005.
> If Charlie has to play a little hardball to keep rates down, he has my full support. If Viacom wants to use "fear" motivation, I don't want their crap.


Especially since nobody but the players themselves are priveleged to know exactly what is spelled out in that contract that Charlie turned down. How would you like it if he signed it and you found out that he agreed to a $3/month (to increase yearly) rate increase starting a year from now and possibly more to come if Viacom decided to add more channels (which would be guaranteed space under the new contract)? It's great that Viacom "claims" it's a 6 cent increase now, but what's to say six months from now, they deny those claims altogether?


----------



## Terence

It dose not matter how many post a person has. That is what forums are for posting our thoughts, views and feelings. The fact is people feel they got the short end of the stick no matter who is right or wrong (DN & V) in this matter. 

I for one want my stations back because i paid for them & that's the bottom line period! I don't know how long i will wait this disput out, my patience can only last for so long.


----------



## Guest

Mike123abc said:


> This thread is filled with tons of new people to DBStalk screaming about the world is ending withotu Viacom. Now it is probable that these people were happy with Dish until today, and now that Viacom is gone they finally got upset enough to go to the internet, seek out information and start posting.
> 
> It would also be a good way for viacom employees to try to shift net opinion. Perhaps Chris could look up the IP addresses of those posting them and see if they are all coming out of Viacom.


I lurked on this board for a couple months back in 2002 when I got my 721, eagerly scanning for news on patches, new features etc. I've never felt the need to post, and am not in any way associated with Viacom.

Until now. I am actually surprised at the number of defenders of the Dish action. I guess I never thought that so many people were so incredibly focused on the cost, as opposed to the content or the value of the service. For me, Dish Network is merely a middle-man re-packager and seller of what I really want which is CONTENT. Faced with $50/month for a subset of channels, absent some of my favorites or $55/month for the complete set including content I consider "must-have", I'll always choose the "must-have" package. That's why I subscribe to satellite/cable instead of settling for the 3 free OTA channels. Among the "must-have" content for me (and high on that list) are two shows I love on Comedy Central, The Daily Show, and South Park. Deride my taste all you want, but those are two things I love to watch, and that I expected to have access to. Now I am being used (without ANY prior notice before catching a news article on the web this afternoon) as a pawn by Dish. Luckily for me, I am not locked-in to any contract or long-term deal, aside from my sunk cost in the purchase of the 721, some of which I hope to get back on ebay.

Attached is the email I sent to [email protected] ealier today:

I am writing to express my great disgust over your move to drop channels that I frequently watch (especially Comedy Central). The decision was yours to make, and by dropping channels whose existence in your programming were a key reason why I switched from cable to Dish has completely destroyed any trust or loyalty I have in Dish Network. You are using us, your locked-in customers, as pawns.

I am planning a move to a new city this summer, and you can be assured that actions like this have made it extremely unlikely that I will be continuing as a Dish Network customer at that time. My only regret is that I wasted the money buying the 721 PVR when it came out, hopefully I can get a good price for it on Ebay.

An extremely dissatisfied customer,
-Shawn


----------



## djtowle

Karl Foster said:


> There are many of us who have been here for a long time
> 
> Charlie can sit on his soap box and defend his principles all he wants. These stations are popular, with CBS being the most watched network. People will leave. Maybe not in droves, but in the long run it will be harder to bring in new subscribers.


And by using CBS as leverage to force feed us it's other stations Viacom is opening itself up to an antitrust suit. I for one hope Congress and the FCC come down HARD on all of these mega-corps.


----------



## Guest

Melishark said:


> . If Charlie sucks it up and pays .. you'll know there were a lot of us.


... and you will then all start *****in about rate hikes no doubt.


----------



## Guest

Hehe, pretty funny that someone thinks people threatening to leave must be fake.

Had some comments after reading other people's posts:

I have never posted here, mostly just shopped and lurked on the Dishplayer board (Old Dishplayer bugs, yah baby =P). I have been with Dish for 3 years or so (came from Cable). I don't know a single person at Dish or Viacom or any other related company.

I am not taking either side because, simply put, I don't really know who is at fault. I think pretty much everyone here who is bashing either side doesn't know enough about the situation to assign blame, either. The same pretty well goes for praising either side. These are big businesses, they are doing what is in their, and hopefully their stockholders, best interest. Most of the people who watch cable are probably going to do the same thing.

It's *obvious* that Dish is going to lose lots of people because of this. I am sure they have run cost analyses and the decision was made based with that in mind (whether it will prove to be accurate or not). Just as the probability of my switching to Directv is going to be based on my own cost analysis 

Of course, the short term loss is probably easier to predict than the long term. I think the real question is how it will affect their reputation and certain lateral market sales. Example: I had been thinking about buying one of those nifty $800 HD PVR's. Since it is Dish proprietary, I don't think I would want to invest that much money in a product when, at any time, all of my favorite channels could simply disappear. Don't get me wrong, this isn't Anti-Dish, I don't think I will put a lot of money into a Directv PVR either, just since I am now more aware that my programming is unpredictable.

Even if it isn't Dish's fault at all, even if you respect their decision, heck even if you are naive enough to think it was done based on 'principles' or 'morality', you have to wonder what effect the instability of programming will have on the consumers, especially when Directv is so close in comparison.

In all fairness, while switching to Directv will probably turn out to be advantageous, in terms of price and getting my Comedy Central back, it will require me to sign a year commitment to get the whole free set up deal. Ironically, that year commitment wouldn't bother me at all...except the concern that they might drop a channel I like too  Still, I am not aware that they have done that yet so we shall see...


----------



## BFG

TNGTony said:


> The latest from www.dishchannelchart.com
> The Viacom Dispute hit the fan at 3am Eastern (Midnight Pacific). Stations labeled Viacom Dispute are not available to subscribers at this time.


Tony or who ever does the dish channel chart. Just thought I should let you know that the UPN O&O Stations are not under dispute as they are being listed that way on the chart. I am perfectly able to get my upn o&o station.


----------



## undefined

Mike123abc said:


> This thread is filled with tons of new people to DBStalk screaming about the world is ending withotu Viacom. Now it is probable that these people were happy with Dish until today, and now that Viacom is gone they finally got upset enough to go to the internet, seek out information and start posting.
> 
> It would also be a good way for viacom employees to try to shift net opinion. Perhaps Chris could look up the IP addresses of those posting them and see if they are all coming out of Viacom.


Let Chris (or whoever the moderators are) look up my IP address. You'll find I'm a normal (non-Viacom or Dish employee) guy coming in via Qwest.net and my office.

And, yes, some of us were very happy Dish network customers until today. And, honestly, if Charlie does something to compensate for the lost channels (waive my multiple receiver fee!) I'll be singing their praises. Then again, I use ExpressVu for most of my network access for if Charlie keeps this up I'll cancel my Dish network contract and stick with Bell.


----------



## Melishark

I thought someone had said early that there would be a press conference tonight at 5pm MT. 

I'm EST so I'm not sure when MT is ( I guess I'll have to go look it up 

Anybody know if this is true or not ?


----------



## BFG

Melishark said:


> I thought someone had said early that there would be a press conference tonight at 5pm MT.
> 
> I'm EST so I'm not sure when MT is ( I guess I'll have to go look it up
> 
> Anybody know if this is true or not ?


Yeah the special CC is on right now on the cbs stations that have been removed in the o&o markets, i cant see it but we'll proabably hear about it. I wonder if the cbs gen. manager showed up...


----------



## 2HB

Melishark said:


> I thought someone had said early that there would be a press conference tonight at 5pm MT.
> 
> I'm EST so I'm not sure when MT is ( I guess I'll have to go look it up
> 
> Anybody know if this is true or not ?


EST would be 7:00 pm


----------



## Melishark

2HB said:


> EST would be 7:00 pm


 Thank you ! 

<< Yeah the special CC is on right now on the cbs stations that have been removed in the o&o markets, i cant see it but we'll proabably hear about it. I wonder if the cbs gen. manager showed up... >>

We're lucky enough to still have our CBS channels ( Grand Rapids, MI area ) so it's not being shown here. Guess I'll have to wait to hear about it. Darn it all.

Thanks again for the info


----------



## Guest

Nyte_eyes said:


> Umm, I happen to love VH1 classic, the rest of the channels I could do without.


J you don't have kids do you


----------



## Guest

jasonjpw said:


> They should drop Nick Games and Sports and VH1 Classic. These stations suck.


you don't have kids do you


----------



## greggg

I love the E* apologists. 

First it's "the take down will never happen"
Second it's "not that many people will complain"
Third it's "well there are a lot complaining but they are Viacom plants"

you guys are right I don't need the comedy channel I can just come here.


----------



## MarkA

I hate to say it, but Charlie's gone too far. I fully expected Viacom's channels to be back up in time for kids getting home from school to watch Spongebob on Nick, 20-somethings to have their share of morally devoid MTV content (remember the Super Bowl), and adults to have their adult entertainment on Comedy Central and CBS (again, CBS being the Super Bowl bit).

Viacom probably has the most morally lacking programming on major cable network TV, but it's also the most entertaining to the largest audience and Charlie is, in effect, not providing the basic service people signed up for on their contract. It would be like if a cell phone company you had a contract with took a quarter of their towers offline, including those in your neighborhood and still expected you to keep your contract.


----------



## Melishark

davmart said:


> you don't have kids do you


 You don't have to be a kid to enjoy SPONGEBOB !! 

I'm 33 yrs old and can always find time for Bob. Although ... Squidward is my favorite. 

I also miss Nick at Nite because I enjoyed watching Roseanne - 3's Compnay - Wings etc.

Reading a book is just not going to cut it for me. BLAH !


----------



## undefined

For those who are watching the Charlie chat right now... don't you love how the last question (the woman making reference to Survivor) asked directly about waiving the early termination fee. Charlie completely skirted the question and talked about their relationship with Viacom.

Thanks, Charlie. We appreciate you screwing us up the you know what.

UPDATE: The following question (last one) asked the same thing. Charlie's response was basically if it drags on for a long time they would consider it. That's real nice of you. Change our programming drastically and then force us to stick with you. Oh if only I had my law degree finished already....


----------



## scooper

What kind of answer DID you expect ?

If he says waive it - he sets a bad precedent.
If he says no directly - it would just inflame some of you even more...

Lose-Lose from his standpoint.


----------



## undefined

scooper said:


> What kind of answer DID you expect ?
> 
> If he says waive it - he sets a bad precedent.
> If he says no directly - it would just inflame some of you even more...
> 
> Lose-Lose from his standpoint.


scooper,

Honestly - if I knew that I could get out of the contract I'd be much more forgiving. To me, it is a sign of good faith. Let you customers decide if they want to support your management decisions, perhaps due to your low rates, or brand loyalty. Let the customers that absolutely can't live without certain channels, like parents who want Nick for their kids, or Survivor and CSI addicts, to go somewhere that offers them.


----------



## Guest

this is from a retailer point charley is giving $1.00 to all all that has a dish network system that does not seem like a lot but you have to think about it he has ner 10 mil cust add that up no it not right we want the channles back


----------



## rbyers

Melishark said:


> You don't have to be a kid to enjoy SPONGEBOB !!
> 
> I'm 33 yrs old and can always find time for Bob. Although ... Squidward is my favorite.
> 
> I also miss Nick at Nite because I enjoyed watching Roseanne - 3's Compnay - Wings etc.
> 
> Reading a book is just not going to cut it for me. BLAH !


I believe you.


----------



## Guest

I for one am feeling somewhat inconvienced by the "off air" stations, BUT I fully support Charlie in refusing to bow to Viacoms price increases! Why should Viacom be able to "screw" over the carriers of their programs and get away with gouging us?!! I don't want to pay some ridiculous amount just to have the opportunity to watch Viacom's stations...especially when you figure that those stations are already collecting fees from their advertisers!
If Charlie doesn't take a stand against Viacom now, how high will our satellite bills go in the long run?!!


----------



## Melishark

gotoofastterry said:


> If Charlie doesn't take a stand against Viacom now, how high will our satellite bills go in the long run?!!


 On the other hand shouldn't WE .. the paying customers be standing up for our rights as well ?

The right to CHOOSE if we want to pay more and the right to get out of the contract if we're tied to them with one ?

What's fair for the goose ...


----------



## Guest

Nazi took my post down? You can canel if you'd like. Dishnetwork went into breech as soon as programming was lost, wihtout a COMPARABLE replacement in place. The problem is you'll need an attorney to do it. But if Dishnetwork gets to stringent with it's binding contract, some lawyer will class action this situation, that you can take to the bank!


----------



## JoeQ

I don't see any mention of this on the Directv forum.

Did Viacom only pull this stunt with DISH?

I don't care 2 cahoots about CBS because I get it digitally OTA but I want my TV Land channel and VH1.


----------



## Guest

Melishark said:


> On the other hand shouldn't WE .. the paying customers be standing up for our rights as well ?
> 
> The right to CHOOSE if we want to pay more and the right to get out of the contract if we're tied to them with one ?
> 
> What's fair for the goose ...


How do you suggest Dish Network goes about this letting customers choose? There are 9 million customers with Dish and everyone has their own opinion on the matter. Many of those customers don't want to pay more, and many would. This is why the CEO has to make a decision on the matter. He must make a decision that will be the best for everyone, because there is no decision that will give 9 million people EXACTLY what they want.


----------



## James Long

Considering tonights chats are on CBS O&O feeds only, I'd say that Charlie is working toward getting CBS back on the air first, separate from Viacom's cable channels. That's a good thing if Viacom allows it, as it breaks the packaging that Viacom wanted.

JL


----------



## dswallow

JoeQ said:


> I don't see any mention of this on the Directv forum.
> 
> Did Viacom only pull this stunt with DISH?


DirecTV reached an agreement with Viacom several months ago, as did Comcast and Cox.


----------



## Charise

Well, I'll probably regret saying this, but I still have TV Land. Don't know why or how, but I'm not questioning it at this point.


----------



## Mike123abc

People screaming on both sides of the issue, but both companies made very careful calculations about this situation.

Echostar/Dish/Charlie whoever you want to blame thinks that this move by viacom could cost them (and of course passed on to subs) 500 million+

Viacom thinks that in the long run they make more money that Dish will give in and they will get the rate increase anyways, even if they lose some ratings. Dish is a huge provider now, 9 million households is around 1/10th the US. So, all the cable channels they provide have 10% or so fewer viewers during this time, this cuts their advertizing revenues.

So, right now Echostar is betting that the money they hope to save with changes to the contract is greater than the lost revenue from the subs that will bail.

Who is right? Who is wrong? Only when the dispute is settled will we know.


----------



## btbrossard

justalurker said:


> Considering tonights chats are on CBS O&O feeds only, I'd say that Charlie is working toward getting CBS back on the air first, separate from Viacom's cable channels. That's a good thing if Viacom allows it, as it breaks the packaging that Viacom wanted.
> 
> JL


I think you are correct. However, I would venture to say that Charlie only cares about getting CBS back. It sounds as if he would let the Viacom cable channels take a flying leap into outerspace if he could.

If CBS comes back first, don't hold out hope for the cable channels.

/Benjamin


----------



## catnap1972

Charise said:


> Well, I'll probably regret saying this, but I still have TV Land. Don't know why or how, but I'm not questioning it at this point.


As had been posted several times, TV Land as well as CMT and Spike were negotitated on a different contract and are not "directly" involved at this point (though Viacom wants the contract voided on those and a new contract drawn up at a higher price)


----------



## Charise

Thanks, catnap1972. Obviously I was catnapping through that announcement!


----------



## oblio98

At first I was pissed at Charlie, and ready to go to DTV. Now, after looking at the whole situation, I think it is Viacom who is being the "bad guy".

Sure, they have their CBS channel, which is highly and widely desirable, along with other channels that have large specific audiences and others that have minimum audiences. It's good business to use something that is desirable to entice buyers to take the less desirable items.

However, in this case, the highly desirable item here is a public broadcast station that is federally licensed. To me, there is something "not quite right" about that.

As far as refunding long term contracts, most of those were signed as incentives to get "free" or "discounted" equipment. The "buy out" fee is more of a purchase price for the freebies. If I am wrong, than I stand corrected, but that is how I see it.

Hopefully, this will end soon. It is pretty frustrating.


----------



## undefined

oblio98 said:


> At first I was pissed at Charlie, and ready to go to DTV. Now, after looking at the whole situation, I think it is Viacom who is being the "bad guy".
> 
> Sure, they have their CBS channel, which is highly and widely desirable, along with other channels that have large specific audiences and others that have minimum audiences. It's good business to use something that is desirable to entice buyers to take the less desirable items.
> 
> However, in this case, the highly desirable item here is a public broadcast station that is federally licensed. To me, there is something "not quite right" about that.
> 
> As far as refunding long term contracts, most of those were signed as incentives to get "free" or "discounted" equipment. The "buy out" fee is more of a purchase price for the freebies. If I am wrong, than I stand corrected, but that is how I see it.
> 
> Hopefully, this will end soon. It is pretty frustrating.


They can have the 811 back...


----------



## Guest

Charlie has royally screwed himself with this one.

He's in a far weaker position than most people realize. With Viacom gone, he CANNOT afford to lose any more channels. So, when contracts for other providers expire, Turner and friends will say "give us 10% or we walk". Charlie won't have much bargaining power because if he loses another large chunk of channels, dishnetwork is finished.

He also at this point cannot cave into Viacom's demands. Doing so has the same result; reducing his barganing power with other providers. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

The only way Viacom is badly hurt by this is if Dishnetwork can still survive and be just as profitable with the loss of Viacom's channels. Other broadcasters will look as Dishnetwork's success and ask why they bother putting up with Viacom's crap.

If I was the CEO of Viacom, I would do the following:

1) Increase the fees I'm asking for. Charlie must be punished for his defiance.
2) Fund a class action lawsuit to help DishNetwork customers get out of their contracts. (the PR value alone would be worth the expense)
3) Give free ad time to DirecTV and perhaps some large cable companies.
4) Make sure SpikeTV is unavailable when it's contract expires in 2005. (the lack of risk with spiketv was probably a significant factor in Charlie's descision) Do the same with TVLand and any other Viacom properties.
5) Pat myself on the back for being such a stupid evil *******.

If I was the Charlie, I would do the following:

1) Immediately fire 10 upper-level management people. Doesn't matter who. All that matters is that I appear to be cleaning house after such a monumental screwup.
2) File multiple lawsuits against viacom. The antitrust one may have some merit.
3) Point out to Congressmen that there are 10 million voters who won't be seeing their campaign ads (congressmen are too dumb to see this is an exaggeration)
4) Cave in to Viacom. Annouce that I had to put "the good of the customers ahead of the the company" or somesuch nonsense. Also announce that Dishnetwork will absorb the losses and not raise rates because of this.
5) next year, raise rates twice as much to compensate. Most customers will be too dumb to connect it to #4.
6) Pat myself on the back for being such a stupid evil *******.




Note that in all of this, I'm making the assumption that Viacom is gone for good. With the exception of CBS, I believe that will be the case. Viacom cannot afford to relent for many of the same reasons Charlie can't. I am also assuming that both sides can stomach the short-term losses that will result. However, the short-term pain could be enough to force either side to give in.


I really don't see this ending well... no matter how it turns out.


----------



## James Long

btbrossard said:


> I think you are correct. However, I would venture to say that Charlie only cares about getting CBS back. It sounds as if he would let the Viacom cable channels take a flying leap into outerspace if he could.
> 
> If CBS comes back first, don't hold out hope for the cable channels.


If CBS comes back first, expect the major Viacoms to follow within a couple of days: Comedy Central, MTV, MTV Espanol, the Nickelodeons, and VH1. New Channel: Nicktoons.

The rest of Viacom is up for grabs. If the price is right, we may keep them. Otherwise, make room for other channels.

JL


----------



## jasonjpw

justalurker said:


> If CBS comes back first, expect the major Viacoms to follow within a couple of days: Comedy Central, MTV, MTV Espanol, the Nickelodeons, and VH1. New Channel: Nicktoons.
> 
> The rest of Viacom is up for grabs. If the price is right, we may keep them. Otherwise, make room for other channels.
> 
> JL


We all know Viacom is going to want DISH to add Nick Toons. Then they will want to add VH1 Soul, VH1 Country, and MTV Hits


----------



## James Long

jasonjpw said:


> We all know Viacom is going to want DISH to add Nick Toons. Then they will want to add VH1 Soul, VH1 Country, and MTV Hits


Please note that certain channels are not on my prediction list. (MTV2, VH1 Classic, Noggin) Anything less than the top Viacom channels is up for grabs, if Charlie's plan works.

JL


----------



## PACOP

the deal will be inclusive all at one. there wont be a cbs till the others are agreed to as well


----------



## James Long

PACOP said:


> the deal will be inclusive all at one. there wont be a cbs till the others are agreed to as well


Only time will tell ... 

JL


----------



## uncdanwrong

My last post seems to have to been lost in the static, so I hope no one will mind if I quote it. While I don't think Viacom should be allowed to get away with a half billion dollar plus extortion, so far they seem to be winning the PR battle.

"The couple of bucks Charlie is offering to subscribers is doing more harm than good. Here's what E* should do to help win some PR battles. All AT60 subs would receive AT120 for an indefinite time for no extra charge. Likewise, AT120 would get AT180, and AT180 would get a free premium. AEP subs would receive a $12 credit for PPV. Heck, Charlie could write it off as a promotional expense. In a perfect world Viacom would be broken up by the Feds, but at least E* could do more to win the PR war in this world."

So guys what do you think, should Dish acknowledge your pain? :eek2:


----------



## Wyoming_Companion

Steve Mehs said:


> Probably not Mitch. I don't have a copy of an Echostar customer agreement, but I'm sure it states in there somewhere, all programming, pricing and packaging is subject to change at any give time. And that's one of the terms you agreed to.


SO....if Dish's programming reverts to only Bloomberg and Shopping channels...everyone should lay back, open their legs and take whatever is given to them.........? I think there is a difference between a change in programming and a slashing of programming....


----------



## scooper

Why is everybody so positive when new channels are added, and go off the deep end when something like this happens (with the same clause in effect on both cases) ?


----------



## jasonjpw

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


----------



## C*Tedesco

I'll give this a few days, but by next week if nothing has been resolved, it's either Comcast or Direct TV. I'm sick of this sh1t. 

eh...1 buck...ridiculous.


----------



## Mike Richardson

Loosing channels such as Nick GAS would majorly suck. You can't take away channels and expect people to be happy. All the old channels need to come back.


----------



## Mark Holtz

http://www.ilostmyfavoritechannels.com/

Yes, that's a real web site. Guess who is behind it.


----------



## Neutron

Mark Holtz said:


> http://www.ilostmyfavoritechannels.com/
> 
> Yes, that's a real web site. Guess who is behind it.


I love how that website is also a big commercial (free I might add) for the cable companies and Directv.

hehehe.


----------



## normang

Turn OFF guest posting... It will thin out the trolls...


----------



## Neutron

Get this. If you call the Directv customer number there is an automated message talking about this. At the end it goes something like this: "If you are a disgruntled DISH network subscriber, please not that this will never happen once you have Directv"


----------



## normang

Neutron said:


> Get this. If you call the Directv customer number there is an automated message talking about this. At the end it goes something like this: "If you are a disgruntled DISH network subscriber, please not that this will never happen once you have Directv"


Yea, right, what will happen the next time Viacom wants an arm & leg from them in a few years...


----------



## btbrossard

Neutron said:


> Get this. If you call the Directv customer number there is an automated message talking about this. At the end it goes something like this: "If you are a disgruntled DISH network subscriber, please not that this will never happen once you have Directv"


DirecTV could not pay for better advertising. They are going to laugh all the way to the bank.

/Benjamin


----------



## Goodfella

normang said:


> Turn OFF guest posting... It will thin out the trolls...


There's a novel idea  Silence the critics anyway possible. Why is it SO damn hard for you Charles drones to figure out this has pissed people off. Rightfully pissed off people voicing opinions. Oh the horror!

Here's a better idea, ban anyone that is pissed off at DISH. Yeah, that's the ticket.

IP's are logged here. Have the admins check them. 
Yes, anyone who's pissed is a troll. BS.


----------



## undefined

normang said:


> Yea, right, what will happen the next time Viacom wants an arm & leg from them in a few years...


I'm pretty confident that once you become a DirecTV customer you will not be a disgruntled Dish network customer again


----------



## Guest

Today Wheel of Fortune had a show where a puzzle was about Sponge Bob Square Pants. Then Pat Sajack made a big deal about Sponge Bob, quoting and talking about things in the show at least 3 different segments. Anything think this episode of Wheel was convienently aired today?


----------



## Joe Capitano

Mark Holtz said:


> Yes, that's a real web site. Guess who is behind it.


Does he live in a pineapple under the sea? Absorbent and yellow and pourous is he? :lol:

I would have used Squidward instead.


----------



## uncdanwrong

DirecTV or at least its new parent like the idea of content producers getting lots more money from E*, Comcast, etc. If Viacom can extort over a half billion from Dish that's just a precursor to the increases the Fox stations, studios, and cable networks will ask for in the future.


----------



## Guest

Anyone think CBS's prime time ratings will suffer tomorrow when they come out?


----------



## Foxbat

Joe Capitano said:


> Does he live in a pineapple under the sea? Absorbent and yellow and pourous is he? :lol:
> 
> I would have used Squidward instead.


Another Viacom property possibility:

How about Kenny laying in a pool of blood, an Echostar satellite crushing him, while Kyle and Stan say to Charlie, "Oh, my God, he killed Kenny!" "You [email protected]!"

Hope the website operator has permission to use Viacom property like that; you know how those faceless corporate entities can be about their intellectual property...

Back to topic, I was surprised my wife was more upset about this than my 6 year old son. We even had to watch the "real" news tonight, not our usual "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart". Bunch of depressing crap, except at the end, when one fine example of the shallow end of the gene pool tried to buy $1,600 worth of electronics at WalMart with a U.S. $1,000,000 bill... :lol:


----------



## Neutron

Foxbat said:


> Another Viacom property possibility:
> 
> How about Kenny laying in a pool of blood, an Echostar satellite crushing him, while Kyle and Stan say to Charlie, "Oh, my God, he killed Kenny!" "You [email protected]!"
> 
> Hope the website operator has permission to use Viacom property like that; you know how those faceless corporate entities can be about their intellectual property...


That website is owned by Viacom. You can access it through the Comedy Central website.


----------



## James_F

What a thread. Nothing like Charles to bring the best out in everyone. 

What is the point of Sat if there is nothing but Cricket to watch? 

Crappy DVRs, no sports programming and now the most watched program is now dark. Sounds like a great business model to me. Everytime I think they starts getting how to be a businessman, he pulls this "Sat Salesman" (no offense to those who are) act with a huge company.


----------



## psycaz

I gotta wonder if this would be playing out like this if it was Direct TV. I would think that News Corp would be able to get its side of the story out much better than Dish is doing right now.

All I keep seeing on all threee cable news stations is how Dish pulled the networks, which isn't what happened - they can't broadcast them without a contract. News Corp would be sure that Fox would give it a lot of attention and present their side - "fair and balanced". Too bad we can't get both sides on one of the cable news shows and have someone point how bad this is for the consumer from BOTH sides.


----------



## Guest

Mitch said:


> Two months ago, I signed a one year agreement with Dish, At that time, I agreed to subscribe to a service that provided me with certain channels that interested me for the next year. As of next Tuesday, it looks like the channels I contracted for with Dish will not exist. Is the contract null-in-void? You could argue that I signed up for a service, not a specific channel. If so, what if all the channels were taken down except for HSN. Would the contract then be cancellable? Where is the line that defines the service I signed up for?


In the residental service agreement line g states that dish can change the package or price with out notice and your contract is still valid. This same type of issue happened a couple years ago with speed vision. They wanted to charge a huge ammount for those cannels and Charlie would not pay it. Guess what speed caved just like Viacom will they need the business. Yes there will be black eyes on both sides but the customer will be better off. People complained about the price increase a few months ago and if Charlie gives in you'll compaline then too. Just wait it out.


----------



## Mark Holtz

jericho29 said:


> Anyone think CBS's prime time ratings will suffer tomorrow when they come out?


No, since a ratings week runs from Mondays-Sundays.


----------



## echo6280

I've been reading all of this stuff and there is one main issue no one seems to be talking about (unless I missed it which is totally possible). Does anyone think for a minute that E* is going to get one single new customer if VH1, MTV, Nick etc...etc... isn't offered in their programming? Even if D* is a buck or two higher per month do you think that when someone shopping for a new satellite system hears that Dish offers about 20 fewer channels, not to mention some of the most popular channels around, anyone in their right mind would say, "hey, Dish sounds like a much better deal!!" I think not. The DirecTV reps must be having a field day with this stuff. I can remember a long time ago when the town I lived in took MTV off the air because they said it's programs were nasty and not good for young people. There was a major uprising and it was back within a couple of days. I can't see Dish surviving with those channels...there's just no way. I think Charlie has to know that eventually he'll have to break if Viacom doesn't...that is if he wants to keep his company afloat. It's just my luck that I bought my 921 two weeks before this all went down. I guess I'm stuck. GO DISH!!!!


----------



## torque91

I think a lot of the people critical of Charlie do not realize that Dish is up to $7 to $10 per month cheaper on most comparable packages than Direct TV. That is because Charlie stands up to the companies like Viacom. He could just sit back and pass on costs to us. With any luck, Charlie will get the anti-trust law suit going and we can look forward to these channels being provided by Charliecom Inc.


----------



## Guest

Melishark said:


> Thank you !
> 
> << Yeah the special CC is on right now on the cbs stations that have been removed in the o&o markets, i cant see it but we'll proabably hear about it. I wonder if the cbs gen. manager showed up... >>
> 
> We're lucky enough to still have our CBS channels ( Grand Rapids, MI area ) so it's not being shown here. Guess I'll have to wait to hear about it. Darn it all.
> 
> Thanks again for the info


if you turn to channel 101 th CC is on there and will be rebroad cast over the next few days.


----------



## kelliot

homeskillet said:


> Honestly... looking at the list I'm not going to miss any Viacom channels. They don't own any local stations in my area, and my distant CBS comes from Atlanta no biggies there. I will lose Denver CBS but oh-well. About the only other channel I watch sometimes is Comedy Central... will miss South Park but life goes on. Also, I watch UPN on WWOR in New York... no loss there either.


South Park is repeated so often that you'll see anything you've missed soon after its back on.

I just hope this doesn't turn out like the S. Cal grocery strike.


----------



## Guest

torque91 said:


> I think a lot of the people critical of Charlie do not realize that Dish is up to $7 to $10 per month cheaper on most comparable packages than Direct TV. That is because Charlie stands up to the companies like Viacom. He could just sit back and pass on costs to us. With any luck, Charlie will get the anti-trust law suit going and we can look forward to these channels being provided by Charliecom Inc.


I really hope Charlie never gives in or we will all have to pay like cable subs do 80 - 90 bucks a month and for what 3 or 4 HBOs and 1-2 Showtimes and everthing after 10 pm is infomercials????? Charlie better not give in!!!!


----------



## Thump3r

jericho29 said:


> Anyone think CBS's prime time ratings will suffer tomorrow when they come out?


_A CBS executive said EchoStar's 1.6 million affected customers were a small part of the audience of more than 30 million the network attracts on a good night._ 
source: http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/040309/media_viacom_echostar_20.html


----------



## Neutron

Just for the hell of it I went to the local cable company's website and for my address I calculated $82 just for digital cable with all three of their "digital paks" and the DVR/HD box with 2 additional regular boxes. This is with no premium channels whatsoever.

I pay a little over that for the AEP, my 510, and 1 additional receiver.

Cable is too expensive.


----------



## Hoobastank

I predict everyone's best friend Charlie will be out on his @$$ next week, never to be heard from again, only except for the occasional sighting in alleys and behind restaurants eating scraps out of the dumpster. One can dream. 

Im cranky, I want my Nick-at-Nite. Ok, I confess, I don't miss Cosby, I never did like that fake puddin' eating fat tub of lard. *sigh*


----------



## FTA Michael

echo6280 said:


> Does anyone think for a minute that E* is going to get one single new customer if VH1, MTV, Nick etc...etc... isn't offered in their programming?


That's a deep question. I've sometimes wondered whether we'd eventually see the cable channels splinter to the point where you chose one provider for ESPN, another for TCM, and a third for Lifetime. Most folks would gravitate to one service that provided the channels they really wanted, occasionally stealing glimpses of other providers' exclusives. Maybe there'd be some FCC mandate for interoperable converter boxes. It's not here yet, and I always expected the sports networks to ignite this, but maybe it'll be the way we watch TV five or ten years from now.

Separate note: I'm fighting hard against the popular notion that anything I watch is great and anything I don't watch is worthless. But please folks, raise your hands, who actually watched Nick Games and Sports for more than a channel-flipping five minutes a week? There's gotta be somebody ... right?

PS, We've sent in an email to Dish to protest lumping Noggin in with the Viacom fringe. Noggin's a worthy commercial-free preschool-friendly joint venture of V* and the Sesame Television Workshop. If you're old enough to drive, it won't be your cup of tea, but it fills its niche better than any channel except maybe PBS Kids.


----------



## PACOP

[/QUOTE] CBS executive said EchoStar's 1.6 million affected customers were a small part of the audience of more than 30 million the network attracts on a good night. 
source: http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/040309/medi...chostar_20.html

this article says charlie could lose 2% of its subs due to the dispute.
lets see 2% of 9 million is 180,000 customers . lets use an avg. of 50 bucks a month for each customer. that equals 9 million dollars lost just in subs . plus 1-2 dollars a month for each subs reduction in rates for the viacoms and cbs. wow at minimum another 9million dollars. conservatively speaking dish will lose approx. 20 million dollars if the analysis is right.


----------



## harsh

Mitch said:


> Two months ago, I signed a one year agreement with Dish, At that time, I agreed to subscribe to a service that provided me with certain channels that interested me for the next year. As of next Tuesday, it looks like the channels I contracted for with Dish will not exist. Is the contract null-in-void? You could argue that I signed up for a service, not a specific channel.


This struck me as familiar. Taken as individual products contracted at a time of much lower cost (which isn't possible precisely because of the Viacom-like bundling), a contractor might not have to deliver if the product in question becomes unreasonably costly.

Similar issues are going on right now in the steel fabrication business where steel prices are increasing by the hour. There are stipulations in contract law that leave an out precisely in these situations so that manufacturers and service providers are not destroyed by extraordinary spikes in cost.

While I hope to see some of Viacom content back, I (as well as Dish's peers) am cheering them on for taking point in the battle against bundling and other forms of extortion.


----------



## Guest

Hoobastank said:


> I predict everyone's best friend Charlie will be out on his @$$ next week, never to be heard from again, only except for the occasional sighting in alleys and behind restaurants eating scraps out of the dumpster. One can dream.
> 
> Im cranky, I want my Nick-at-Nite. Ok, I confess, I don't miss Cosby, I never did like that fake puddin' eating fat tub of lard. *sigh*


Please explaine your prediction? I have it on good athority that Charlie is more than a figure head, he also is a world class poker player. whoever blinks first will be the one who looses the biggest. But they both loose as do we. I would rather be inconvienced for a few days and not pay up the @$$ for programming that is the reason for this its for you me and everyone who is sick of having to pay the price that the big guy asks even if you know there Krap isnt worh it.


----------



## bcw

Charlies easy way out would have been to accept viacom's prices, wait till next year and blame the price increases on viacom. I am quite certain that he knows that this is going to cost him quite a bit more, but he is looking further ahead than many of the people posting here.


----------



## James Long

Noggin may be OK, but "The N" is a waste of transponder space. What does PBS Kids do in the off hours? It may be a viable replacement for Noggin and The N.

24hrs without some Viacom channels ... and WAM! is playing LOTR.

Life goes on ...

JL


----------



## Goodfella

PACOP said:


> CBS executive said EchoStar's 1.6 million affected customers were a small part of the audience of more than 30 million the network attracts on a good night.
> source: http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/040309/medi...chostar_20.html
> 
> this article says charlie could lose 2% of its subs due to the dispute.
> lets see 2% of 9 million is 180,000 customers . lets use an avg. of 50 bucks a month for each customer. that equals 9 million dollars lost just in subs . plus 1-2 dollars a month for each subs reduction in rates for the viacoms and cbs. wow at minimum another 9million dollars. conservatively speaking dish will lose approx. 20 million dollars if the analysis is right.


Me thinks the 2% figure (180,000) is* way* too low based on what's going on around me. All the Charles drones around here (this site) are in a BIG minority in the grand scheme. You do realize how many subs are posting on this forum correct? .0000000001% perhaps?
In the figures above, add how many new subs DISH is adding now. Close to ZERO. Smooth move Charles, very smooth. DISH will go under or the remaining subs will be forced to pick up the slack $ wise. Yay, go Charlie!!


----------



## TerryC

Mark Holtz said:


> http://www.ilostmyfavoritechannels.com/
> 
> Yes, that's a real web site. Guess who is behind it.


Registrant:
MTVN Online Partner 1 LLC

Address:
1515 Broadway
8th Floor
Attn Pier Borra
New York, NY 10036-5794
US

First Registered:
January 16, 2004

Last Updated:
March 10, 2004

Administrative Contact:
MTVi-Admin Contact (35876815O) [email protected]
MTVi-Admin Contact
MTVi Group
1515 Broadway
New York, NY 10036-5794
US
+1 212 846-3367 fax: +1 212-654-9068

Technical Contact:
Amirian, Brian (36553847P) [email protected]
1515 Broadway
New York, NY 10036
US
212 846 3223

Name Servers:
NS1.CBSIG.NET 63.240.56.11
NS2.CBSIG.NET 63.240.56.12
NS3.CBSIG.NET 170.20.116.35


----------



## James Long

PACOP said:


> lets see 2% of 9 million is 180,000 customers . lets use an avg. of 50 bucks a month for each customer. that equals 9 million dollars lost just in subs .


I doubt if they will lose 180,000 whiners, but bye bye!

If successful Charlie will keep lower costs and get those subscribers back. There is always a certain amount of churn in the business. If one spends all of their time trying not to lose one customer, they may end up seeing many more leave because they were not served.

Charlie is concentrating (as he should) on the subscribers who are staying and the future. In a few months we'll be looking back on this just as many look back at older conflicts. It is all a blip.

JL


----------



## jhickman

I posted this in another thread, but here it goes again:

From what I can see Dish and Viacom are BOTH wrong in letting things get to this point. They've had several months to work things out and they're both too stubborn to do it. My commitment to Dish runs out next month and I'm very seriously considering switching to DirecTV or back to cable. They're both shooting themselves in the foot.


----------



## James Long

Goodfella said:


> You do realize how many subs are posting on this forum correct? .0000000001% perhaps?


If all 6000 members of this forums were active on this thread and only ONE was posting correct information that would be .00016666% Since there are less than a hundred active on this thread, and many are correct, the percentage is much higher.

JL


----------



## uncdanwrong

If Charlie really wanted an easy way out all he'd have to do is pick up the phone and say "Michael Eisner, let's solve each other's problem". Then sit back and wait for Sumner Redstone, Brian Roberts, and perhaps even Rupert Murdoch to need a clean change of pants.


----------



## Guest

justalurker said:


> I doubt if they will lose 180,000 whiners, but bye bye!
> 
> If successful Charlie will keep lower costs and get those subscribers back. There is always a certain amount of churn in the business. If one spends all of their time trying not to lose one customer, they may end up seeing many more leave because they were not served.
> 
> Charlie is concentrating (as he should) on the subscribers who are staying and the future. In a few months we'll be looking back on this just as many look back at older conflicts. It is all a blip.
> 
> JL


 I certainly hope that your right I hate thinking that this was all for nothing. What bothers me more is the ammount of people who don't understand the true issue here its your money and everyone says just up my rate and give me my MTV that is until they see the increase on their bill then they'll cry why charlie why!


----------



## James Long

The polls in other threads seem to be supporting E*'s side.

JL


----------



## Goodfella

justalurker said:


> I doubt if they will lose 180,000 whiners, but bye bye!
> 
> If successful Charlie will keep lower costs and get those subscribers back. There is always a certain amount of churn in the business. If one spends all of their time trying not to lose one customer, they may end up seeing many more leave because they were not served.
> 
> Charlie is concentrating (as he should) on the subscribers who are staying and the future. In a few months we'll be looking back on this just as many look back at older conflicts. It is all a blip.
> 
> JL


"Whiners"? Give me a damn break, I'd sure like to do business with someone as naive as yourself. Easy money. We'll never know the true # because Mr. Arrogance will never let it out. (He will tell you where to go to get the programming you want that he doesn't carry anymore however, oh nice  )
Oh yes, the favorite Charlie drone war cry "bye bye", or "don't let the door hit you in the ass". Forgot to add that damn it. It's standard reply rhetoric for morons who won't stand up for *themselves*, screw Charles standing up to Viacom. I was with DTV for 6 years and never experienced this BS. Guess what? My rates weren't out of whack either. I left for HD and DVR's (EDIT..AND locals). Have a buddy who's a retailer and thought what the hell. He's had business out the ass the last 3 months. Phone ringing off the hook. People defecting DTV and cable. His phone is still ringing off the hook now, don't get me wrong, he just isn't enjoying the calls and much.


----------



## Goodfella

justalurker said:


> If all 6000 members of this forums were active on this thread and only ONE was posting correct information that would be .00016666% Since there are less than a hundred active on this thread, and many are correct, the percentage is much higher.
> 
> JL


Hey Einstein..It was a reference to the total # of DISH subscribers vs. the amount that post here. It was also just an obtuse figure not to be taken literally. However, if you'd like to be a dick about it (you love it I know), take all 6000 and say they are all active (which they aren't). Compare that to 9,000,000..I get .00006% Better?


----------



## Goodfella

justalurker said:


> The polls in other threads seem to be supporting E*'s side.
> 
> JL


Sure they do, they don't represent the average DISH sub who simply pays his bills and expects his channels to be there when he wants them.


----------



## Guest

Goodfella said:


> "Whiners"? Give me a damn break, I'd sure like to do business with someone as naive as yourself. Easy money. We'll never know the true # because Mr. Arrogance will never let it out. (He will tell you where to go to get the programming you want that he doesn't carry anymore however, oh nice  )
> Oh yes, the favorite Charlie drone war cry "bye bye", or "don't let the door hit you in the ass". Forgot to add that damn it. It's standard reply rhetoric for morons who won't stand up for *themselves*, screw Charles standing up to Viacom. I was with DTV for 6 years and never experienced this BS. Guess what? My rates weren't out of whack either. I left for HD and DVR's. Have a buddy who's a retailer and thought what the hell. He's had business out the ass the last 3 months. Phone ringing off the hook. People defecting DTV and cable. His phone is still ringing off the hook now, don't get me wrong, he just isn't enjoying the calls and much.


you poor thing you must really miss DTV... you only left for the DVR? I don't belive that no one else here does either. It was the lower programming and the DVR and the 24 hour tech service. Do you think it is cheap to run a company of its size and keep prices low? At least he isn't a sell out like the rest maybe you should chek out cable.


----------



## PACOP

maybe in these forums there are more charlie supporters but for the far majority of the avg. viewer who woke up to blacked out channels and charlies smiling face this morning they are not. they just think he is a rich ******* and they want their channels back. you can't really blame them, they want what they paid for.


----------



## comet48

uncdanwrong said:


> If Charlie really wanted an easy way out all he'd have to do is pick up the phone and say "Michael Eisner, let's solve each other's problem". Then sit back and wait for Sumner Redstone, Brian Roberts, and perhaps even Rupert Murdoch to need a clean change of pants.


Charlie and Mickey would make a great match. Robin Williams once posed the question "Why does Mickey only have three fingers?" 
Answer "So he can't pick up the check!"

As I said, a great match.


----------



## Guest

I have read this form for a while now and have a few choice bits. I know that this deal is about money plain and simple. But I didn't join dish for the money that I would save I joined it because that is what my wife had in her college days. I wanted better reception on my locals. I saw the price thing on here and decided to take a look

my last E* bill came to: 66.98 before tax with locals, 120 and hbo/max

I check the same thing for the stations I like to watch like UPN, NICK, TECH TV etc and the price including local hbo and max was 62.99 before tax. 

What I am tying to figure is how are they able to offer this to me for less than dish. though if E* doesn't resolve this with viacom soon I may just go over yonder to d*.


----------



## bcw

Lets be nice folks, everyone has a right to thier own opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.


----------



## Guest

Curious Cannon Fodder said:


> I have read this form for a while now and have a few choice bits. I know that this deal is about money plain and simple. But I didn't join dish for the money that I would save I joined it because that is what my wife had in her college days. I wanted better reception on my locals. I saw the price thing on here and decided to take a look
> 
> my last E* bill came to: 66.98 before tax with locals, 120 and hbo/max
> 
> I check the same thing for the stations I like to watch like UPN, NICK, TECH TV etc and the price including local hbo and max was 62.99 before tax.
> 
> What I am tying to figure is how are they able to offer this to me for less than dish. though if E* doesn't resolve this with viacom soon I may just go over yonder to d*.


in about 5-10 days the dust will settle and the winner will be declared and then we can all make better choices.


----------



## Mike Richardson

carload said:


> But please folks, raise your hands, who actually watched Nick Games and Sports for more than a channel-flipping five minutes a week? There's gotta be somebody ... right?
> 
> PS, We've sent in an email to Dish to protest lumping Noggin in with the Viacom fringe. Noggin's a worthy commercial-free preschool-friendly joint venture of V* and the Sesame Television Workshop. If you're old enough to drive, it won't be your cup of tea, but it fills its niche better than any channel except maybe PBS Kids.


I do watch Nick GAS now and then because they play those neat old game shows I watched as a little kid. And some really old ones I don't even remember. The cable company doesn't offer Nick GAS (or Nicktoons), and to get Noggin/The-N you have to have a digital box.

Also, Noggin plays "The-N" at night time which actually is geared towards those who may be old enough to drive (teens).


----------



## PACOP

directv has a message when you call in basically saying you came to the right place and if you are a disgruntled dish customer you don't have to be worried about losing any channels with them. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## James Long

Goodfella said:


> "Whiners"? Give me a damn break





Goodfella said:


> Hey Einstein..


Will you be here when the Viacom channels get turned back on? Will you be here next week? Perhaps. And if you are I hope you will have grown up. 
:lol:

That's the trouble with having Nickelodeon off the air ... the kids have to find somewhere to play. Some have started trolling/posting here. 

JL
Investing for the long haul ...


----------



## James Long

Goodfella said:


> Sure they do, they don't represent the average DISH sub who simply pays his bills and expects his channels to be there when he wants them.


Considering the tone of the whiners on this forum I'm suprised E* is doing so well in the polls.

JL


----------



## Mike Richardson

justalurker said:


> Noggin may be OK, but "The N" is a waste of transponder space. What does PBS Kids do in the off hours? It may be a viable replacement for Noggin and The N.


But see, that's just your opinion. PBS Kids can't directly replace Noggin and The-N.

I think sports channels are a waste of transponder space. Let's replace them with PBS Kids and Trio.


----------



## Mark Holtz

Quad City News: 'Charlie' explains missing channels
Boston Herald: Viewers are victims in Dish-Viacom war


----------



## Neutron

PACOP said:


> directv has a message when you call in basically saying you came to the right place and if you are a disgruntled dish customer you don't have to be worried about losing any channels with them. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Okay PACOP, I have noticed that this is the SECOND post of mine that you have basically ripped off.


----------



## Goodfella

justalurker said:


> Will you be here when the Viacom channels get turned back on? Will you be here next week? Perhaps. And if you are I hope you will have grown up.
> :lol:
> 
> That's the trouble with having Nickelodeon off the air ... the kids have to find somewhere to play. Some have started trolling/posting here.
> 
> JL
> Investing for the long haul ...


Weak effort, really weak. You can sling BS and be a "grown up" but a 42 year old pissed off guy can't give it back to ya without being a kid? 
I have a big bucket full of rocks, perfect throwing size. You about out yet, troll?


----------



## PACOP

sorry but when i saw the post i called directv and it was fuuny as ****. had to let others know if they didn't see it from earlier. no offense ok.


----------



## Mike Richardson

PACOP said:


> directv has a message when you call in basically saying you came to the right place and if you are a disgruntled dish customer you don't have to be worried about losing any channels with them. :lol: :lol: :lol:


But if DirecTV pays Viacom's ***** money in order to keep Viacom's channels then new DTV subs might get their Spongebob right now but that sponge is gonna be sucking up their wallets faster than on DISH.


----------



## PACOP

by the way neutron what was the other post ur talking about?


----------



## James Long

Mike Richardson said:


> But see, that's just your opinion. PBS Kids can't directly replace Noggin and The-N.


And as Americans we are allowed to have contrary ones. Nothing on E* replaces PBS Kids. It would be a great ADD, along with others.



Mike Richardson said:


> I think sports channels are a waste of transponder space. Let's replace them with PBS Kids and Trio.


I could go with that. Package prices could drop several dollars by booting off sports.

JL


----------



## Goodfella

PACOP said:


> maybe in these forums there are more charlie supporters but for the far majority of the avg. viewer who woke up to blacked out channels and charlies smiling face this morning they are not. they just think he is a rich ******* and they want their channels back. you can't really blame them, they want what they paid for.


Precisely. You can't tell that to the Charles shills here however.


----------



## James Long

Goodfella said:


> Weak effort, really weak.


That's not what it's all about. Perhaps if you stick around you will learn that. If not, OK. :grin:

JL


----------



## Goodfella

bdid said:


> you only left for the DVR? I don't belive that no one else here does either. It was the lower programming and the DVR and the 24 hour tech service.


Perhaps you can read the post again.


----------



## Mike Richardson

justalurker said:


> And as Americans we are allowed to have contrary ones. Nothing on E* replaces PBS Kids. It would be a great ADD, along with others.
> 
> I could go with that.  Package prices could drop several dollars by booting off sports.
> 
> JL


Allright, let's replace all the sports with Trio and PBS Kids and Nicktoons. Problem is all these other people would be pissed off  which is an advantage to ala-carte or themed packages but we'll never get those 

Even broad themed packages would be good. Bundle all the sports into one package. All the kids into one package. Perhaps require that the user take a very basic package with very broad channels just to guarantee some revenue for the big companies. For example you must take Nickelodeon, but NOT any of the other viacom kids channels. ESPN but NOT any of the extra disney sports chanels. I can dream can't I?


----------



## James Long

Mike Richardson said:


> Allright, let's replace all the sports with Trio and PBS Kids and Nicktoons. Problem is all these other people would be pissed off


As long as you and I are happy, Mike, that's all that matters. :hurah:

I like the way Canadian theme packages are listed, but not the prices charged. It does get around the problem of what to put in the core. There are plenty of people ticked that the core news channels on E* are CNN and one must bump up to AT120 to get FNC. A "news theme" means all news or none ... which is bad for those who don't want CNN or don't want FNC but will pe paying.

Based on Viacom's claims, it appears they are only getting $1.20 per subscriber per month for all of their "cable" channels. Kinda small to package separately. It makes more sense to split them into tiers as E* has done.

YMMV HAND IANAL

JL


----------



## undefined

Mike Richardson said:


> Allright, let's replace all the sports with Trio and PBS Kids and Nicktoons. Problem is all these other people would be pissed off  which is an advantage to ala-carte or themed packages but we'll never get those
> 
> Even broad themed packages would be good. Bundle all the sports into one package. All the kids into one package. Perhaps require that the user take a very basic package with very broad channels just to guarantee some revenue for the big companies. For example you must take Nickelodeon, but NOT any of the other viacom kids channels. ESPN but NOT any of the extra disney sports chanels. I can dream can't I?


Sounds like Bell ExpressVu to me!

If you want good satellite, forget US DBS providers. D* and E* both cost way too much and offer far too little choice. ExpressVU is the way to go if you want package choices that are bundled based on content (sports, kids, etc.), high definition networks (all of them), and inexpensive service.


----------



## Guest

Goodfella said:


> Perhaps you can read the post again.


Whiners"? Give me a damn break, I'd sure like to do business with someone as naive as yourself. Easy money. We'll never know the true # because Mr. Arrogance will never let it out. (He will tell you where to go to get the programming you want that he doesn't carry anymore however, oh nice )
Oh yes, the favorite Charlie drone war cry "bye bye", or "don't let the door hit you in the ass". Forgot to add that damn it. It's standard reply rhetoric for morons who won't stand up for themselves, screw Charles standing up to Viacom. I was with DTV for 6 years and never experienced this BS. Guess what? My rates weren't out of whack either. I left for HD and DVR's. Have a buddy who's a retailer and thought what the hell. He's had business out the ass the last 3 months. Phone ringing off the hook. People defecting DTV and cable. His phone is still ringing off the hook now, don't get me wrong, he just isn't enjoying the calls and much.

I happen to know that Mr Arrogance is looking the public in the eye and saying for the record where he stands and why. He even invted you to call in and ask your questions. Did you? yes I bet you were with DTV for 6 years. I feel that you not only left for HD and the DVR but also for the 24 hour tech supprot AND THE LOWER PROGRAMMING PRICE so whe Charlie stands up for you why are you mocking his effort? Why wouldn't you support this effort? Go back to DTV if you miss it so much.


----------



## James Long

undefined said:


> If you want good satellite, forget US DBS providers. D* and E* both cost way too much and offer far too little choice. ExpressVU is the way to go if you want package choices that are bundled based on content (sports, kids, etc.), high definition networks (all of them), and inexpensive service.


So you are saying I could get 74 channels for US$24.99 and 103+ channels (plus RSN and CDs) for US$34.99 with the packages from BEV?

Other than the fact that my purchase of the packages would be grey illegal, the prices I've seen don't compete. There are special cases, but AT's seem to do well.

JL


----------



## buddy_logan

amit5roy5 said:


> I remember one Charlie Chat about him complaining that they had to uplink the "must carry" locals. I think the Echostar CEO cannot blame certain things to he and his company. I do not mind paying a few extra dollars for these channels.


From what I have heard the Viacom increase will raise bills $5,$6,may be even $7 more a month. So not a few dollars. I don't know about you, but I'm glad there's a company that's fighting to keep consumer costs down.


----------



## Guest

It's kind of funny. All these people on here have these strong opinions about whose fault it is (as if this was some pre school schoolyard and not big business). All those 'political' people...you realize your opinion is actually the *least* important to Dish, pro or con ? Why ? Because if you hate Dish, you are going to leave or have already left...and if you love Dish that much, you are going to stay. The only people that are important here are the people who are otherwise on the fence and might (or might not) leave because they or their kids or their wives or their dogs aren't getting the channels they want.

Those people, the people who don't really care whose fault it is...are just going to be pushed in to the other camp by all the constant political mudslinging that BOTH Viacom and Dish are doing and by the whining BOTH sides are doing here !


----------



## Goodfella

bdid said:


> Whiners"? Give me a damn break, I'd sure like to do business with someone as naive as yourself. Easy money. We'll never know the true # because Mr. Arrogance will never let it out. (He will tell you where to go to get the programming you want that he doesn't carry anymore however, oh nice )
> Oh yes, the favorite Charlie drone war cry "bye bye", or "don't let the door hit you in the ass". Forgot to add that damn it. It's standard reply rhetoric for morons who won't stand up for themselves, screw Charles standing up to Viacom. I was with DTV for 6 years and never experienced this BS. Guess what? My rates weren't out of whack either. I left for HD and DVR's. Have a buddy who's a retailer and thought what the hell. He's had business out the ass the last 3 months. Phone ringing off the hook. People defecting DTV and cable. His phone is still ringing off the hook now, don't get me wrong, he just isn't enjoying the calls and much.
> 
> I happen to know that Mr Arrogance is looking the public in the eye and saying for the record where he stands and why. He even invted you to call in and ask your questions. Did you? yes I bet you were with DTV for 6 years. I feel that you not only left for HD and the DVR but also for the 24 hour tech supprot AND THE LOWER PROGRAMMING PRICE so whe Charlie stands up for you why are you mocking his effort? Why wouldn't you support this effort? Go back to DTV if you miss it so much.


Yes, I left for DVR's, HD, AND locals (go look at the edit). I also left because a friend of mine is in DISH as a retailer and DISH was starting to look decent to me. Especially with the equipment I got. Where you come up with me needing 24 hour tech support I have no clue. I've never used ANY tech support with DTV or Dish. I installed my own C-Band in back in 1982 for friends and family. Yeah, I need tech support.  
Why won't I support this "effort"? It's BS, that's why. I will be heading back to DTV in a week. I didn't miss it a bit until this crap. If I knew what I know now I'd never have switched. You wouldn't believe all the new installs slated being cancelled (lucky guys). Why it's so hard to understand that people are pissed is beyond me.


----------



## uncdanwrong

I wish U.S copyright law did allow the Canadians to sell their DTH services here. That would be real competition rather than what passes for it these days. Don't even get me started about the non existence of "intellectual property". I proclaim I own the copyright for the alphabet therefore the content producers owe me billions. However posters at DBSTalk have my permission. :sure:


----------



## Guest

Goodfella said:


> Yes, I left for DVR's, HD, AND locals (go look at the edit). I also left because a friend of mine is in DISH as a retailer and DISH was starting to look decent to me. Especially with the equipment I got. Where you come up with me needing 24 hour tech support I have no clue. I've never used ANY tech support with DTV or Dish. I installed my own C-Band in back in 1982 for friends and family. Yeah, I need tech support.
> Why won't I support this "effort"? It's BS, that's why. I will be heading back to DTV in a week. I didn't miss it a bit until this crap. If I knew what I know now I'd never have switched. You wouldn't believe all the new installs slated being cancelled (lucky guys). Why it's so hard to understand that people are pissed is beyond me.


Yes I suspect you have no idea why this effort is so important one day when you grow up you will


----------



## Mike Richardson

Goodfella said:


> I will be heading back to DTV in a week. I didn't miss it a bit until this crap. If I knew what I know now I'd never have switched. You wouldn't believe all the new installs slated being cancelled (lucky guys). Why it's so hard to understand that people are pissed is beyond me.


Enjoy paying higher rates for Sponge Bob.


----------



## btbrossard

This thread has really taken a turn for the worse.

/Benajmin


----------



## Hoobastank

Mike Richardson said:


> Enjoy paying higher rates for Sponge Bob.


Atleast DirecTV gives the option of paying higher rates for Sponge Bob. Some DBS providors don't even offer it anymore. Imagine that.


----------



## Mike Richardson

Hoobastank said:


> Atleast DirecTV gives the option of paying higher rates for Sponge Bob. Some DBS providors don't even offer it anymore. Imagine that.


Some DBS providers don't offer it temporarily, and when they do begin offering it again, in the long term it's gonna be cheaper for those DBS providers than it will be for people who must have their Sponge Bob immediately and without interruption.

Maybe the merger would have been good. 20 million subs is a lot more weight to throw around. We'd have TiVo and superstations. Cheap pricing and more channels. (Perhaps Voom then would have more bandwidth to develop as a full-fledged competitor to keep things more equal.)


----------



## Hoobastank

Mike Richardson said:


> Some DBS providers don't offer it temporarily, and when they do begin offering it again, in the long term it's gonna be cheaper for those DBS providers than it will be for people who must have their Sponge Bob immediately and without interruption.


Some would rather pay a premium if need be to a stable company with solid bussiness relations and can negotiate rates like big boys rather than throwing a tantrum and doesn't play well with others.

Thankfully the merger did not go through, only one DBS providor in the states would have been scary and violates the foundation of antitrust principles. Still grateful that there is an alternative to cable though.


----------



## Guest

I've been reading this forum for months, and I read all 32 pages of the posts on this topic. Some are exceedingly well written.

I was kind of surprised that there weren't more people who pointed out the following (though some did). Here's what I wrote to Charle:

Dear Charlie,

I appreciate your effort to hold down costs, but I greatly
resent you asking us to call Viacom to get this dispute
resolved.

YOU are my vendor, not Viacom. We pay YOU for services.
We have no relationship with Viacom.

We've been happy with DISH to date, after having been loyal
DTV customers for eight years. But this situation will
drive us back to DTV.

The predominant channels my family watches are the ones
owned by Viacom. Not any of the *multitude* of crappy shop
at home drivel, or the religious channels that make up the
bulk of America's Top 100 --- er Top 120 --- er Top 109.

Your offer of $1 credit per month is ludicrous--a slap in
the face. If losing Viacom only saves you/me $1, and all
they are asking for is a 6% increase per month, THEN JUST
PAY THE 6 CENTS! You already raised our rates $2!

Charlie, your math doesn't hold up. If this is really the
large amount of money you're making it out to be, I expect a
much larger credit during the time the channels are dark.

But, if it's only $1, then you're doing us a real disservice
by fighting Viacom over this small amount.

Net: Those channels are worth more than $1 to me. This
situation will cause me to leave DISH for another option.

From a customer service perspective, the offer of a $1
credit on a $57 bill is wiping out all the goodwill that the
DISH CSR's have built up over the past few months. Since we
lost 10% of our channels, we expect a 10% credit.

I welcome your thoughts on this matter. Please let me know
if I am missing something.


----------



## Goodfella

bdid said:


> Yes I suspect you have no idea why this effort is so important one day when you grow up you will


 "When I grow up"..I run a large $ business, am 42 years old, have endured and been through more **** than I'd wish on an enemy, and you tell me to grow up. Gotcha!


----------



## Goodfella

Unhappy Customer said:


> I've been reading this forum for months, and I read all 32 pages of the posts on this topic. Some are exceedingly well written.
> 
> I was kind of surprised that there weren't more people who pointed out the following (though some did). Here's what I wrote to Charle:
> 
> Dear Charlie,
> 
> I appreciate your effort to hold down costs, but I greatly
> resent you asking us to call Viacom to get this dispute
> resolved.
> 
> YOU are my vendor, not Viacom. We pay YOU for services.
> We have no relationship with Viacom.
> 
> We've been happy with DISH to date, after having been loyal
> DTV customers for eight years. But this situation will
> drive us back to DTV.
> 
> The predominant channels my family watches are the ones
> owned by Viacom. Not any of the *multitude* of crappy shop
> at home drivel, or the religious channels that make up the
> bulk of America's Top 100 --- er Top 120 --- er Top 109.
> 
> Your offer of $1 credit per month is ludicrous--a slap in
> the face. If losing Viacom only saves you/me $1, and all
> they are asking for is a 6% increase per month, THEN JUST
> PAY THE 6 CENTS! You already raised our rates $2!
> 
> Charlie, your math doesn't hold up. If this is really the
> large amount of money you're making it out to be, I expect a
> much larger credit during the time the channels are dark.
> 
> But, if it's only $1, then you're doing us a real disservice
> by fighting Viacom over this small amount.
> 
> Net: Those channels are worth more than $1 to me. This
> situation will cause me to leave DISH for another option.
> 
> From a customer service perspective, the offer of a $1
> credit on a $57 bill is wiping out all the goodwill that the
> DISH CSR's have built up over the past few months. Since we
> lost 10% of our channels, we expect a 10% credit.
> 
> I welcome your thoughts on this matter. Please let me know
> if I am missing something.


Unhappy..I touched on the fact that Charlie is my provider, not Via. It gets lost on the Charlie drones. I agree with you.


----------



## Melishark

Unhappy Customer said:


> Your offer of $1 credit per month is ludicrous--a slap in
> the face. If losing Viacom only saves you/me $1, and all
> they are asking for is a 6% increase per month, THEN JUST
> PAY THE 6 CENTS! You already raised our rates $2!


 I think he said tonight that it was about a $2 increase per month per subscriber. He claims that the 6 cents idea came from Viacom.

He also says that he hates to miss the Bball games on CBS this weekend ( or whenever they are ) so I figure we'll probably have CBS back by then. Let's just hope he still tries to get the other channels back as well.

If Viacom wants $2 extra a month and Dish wants to pay no more than $1 per month ... why not meet in the middle at $1.50

It just makes sense to me.

I should be watching Wings right now !


----------



## Mike Richardson

Hoobastank said:


> Some would rather pay a premium if need be to a stable company with solid bussiness relations and can negotiate rates like big boys rather than throwing a tantrum and doesn't play well with others.


I suppose that being beat up by the bully is always better than standing up and defending yourself. I mean, as long as you get Sponge Bob, right?


----------



## Mike Richardson

Anyone who thinks the big channels like Nickelodeon are gonna be gone in any permanacy are crazy. DISH can't survive long-term without them. If they aren't back in a month, all hell _will_ break loose.


----------



## jackhammer

This kind of B.S. out of viacom is no different than if you go purchase gas at a fuel station and they tell you in order to buy gas here you have to purchase a car wash also :nono2: 

From the Dish network stand point it is like going to a full service station and having to pump your own gas and still have to pay the full service price!  

better yet why cant Dish network get into a contract dispute with the media companies that carry nothing but infomercials now that i would like to see they could put it all into a package called garbage T.V. or something to that nature and the media company would have to pay you (the consumer) to be able to stomach viewing them for endless hours. :grin:


----------



## Melishark

Mike Richardson said:


> I suppose that being beat up by the bully is always better than standing up and defending yourself. I mean, as long as you get Sponge Bob, right?


 What's with you and spongebob ? Do you honestly think that's why people are mad ... because we lost spongebob ?

Nick at Nite had many good programs on at night and VH1 had the 80's videos all of the time.

It's not about Spongebob at all.

Standing up to the bully and getting your ass kicked isn't the way to go either. Working things out with the bully and getting along is the smartest thing to do.


----------



## Mike Richardson

This thread should be renamed to "THE VIACOM THREAD" or the like. Perhaps it would cause less extra threads to be made. Or, make a temporary board for Viacom discussion. Maybe a whole new site: ViaEchoTakedownTalk.com


----------



## Mike Richardson

Melishark said:


> What's with you and spongebob ? Do you honestly think that's why people are mad ... because we lost spongebob ?
> 
> Nick at Nite had many good programs on at night and VH1 had the 80's videos all of the time.
> 
> It's not about Spongebob at all.
> 
> Standing up to the bully and getting your ass kicked isn't the way to go either. Working things out with the bully and getting along is the smartest thing to do.


Sponge Bob seems to be very representitive of Viacom, for example, http://www.ilostmyfavoritechannels.com (warning: propaganda)

Yes, other good programming was lost too.


----------



## Jacob S

Wouldn't Dish Network not only be charging the extra amount that Viacom wants extra but charging extra on top of that as a profit on the increase? Perhaps Viacom wants Dish to absorb some of the costs.

I guess the additional subscribers Dish is getting for Viacom to help get them more money for advertising and for each subscriber is not good enough as a pay increase, that they need an increase on top of that. Think about it. The thing about it is that some of these subscribers are coming from another video provider such as cable so the money would be coming from one provider to another which may cause them to get more/less for each consumer if they worked a better deal with them.

There could be more than what we have seen discussed that would cause Viacom to want such a high increase year to year. Not only that but the increase use of DVR's and perhaps how Dish Network has contributed a great deal in allowing consumers to skip commercials. This could cause Viacom to receive less money on their advertisements on the Dish subscribers if more of them are getting the DVR service than the other providers. This could be caused by a combination of things.


----------



## Jacob S

If every program provider asked for a 6 cent per sub increase per year how much would that add up to in one year? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years?

Perhaps Dish does not want to be in between when it comes to becoming the cheapest provider or a provider with the most channels. It seems they want to have a balance in that they want to offer most of the popular channels and be the cheapest provider, but if there is not much of a price difference then they might as well offer them all.

CNN Headline News is saying that Echostar dropped the Viacom channels and that Viacom is urging its customers to switch providers. So that is what Viacom is telling Dish Network customers when they try to contact them.


----------



## Goodfella

Melishark said:


> What's with you and spongebob ? Do you honestly think that's why people are mad ... because we lost spongebob ?
> 
> Nick at Nite had many good programs on at night and VH1 had the 80's videos all of the time.
> 
> It's not about Spongebob at all.
> 
> Standing up to the bully and getting your ass kicked isn't the way to go either. Working things out with the bully and getting along is the smartest thing to do.


I think you (and I) are beating our heads against a wall here (a dense, thick wall).

Nice post..Lets not forget about Comedy Central by the way


----------



## Goodfella

Mike Richardson said:


> This thread should be renamed to "THE VIACOM THREAD" or the like. Perhaps it would cause less extra threads to be made. Or, make a temporary board for Viacom discussion. Maybe a whole new site: ViaEchoTakedownTalk.com


Uh, yeah, sure Mike.


----------



## Guest

Just a few quick blips-

1. I think all of you on this thread should read the thread about the 3/9/04 Charlie Chat. I know not all of you have a CBS channel on DISH to see it on. It will clear up a lot of the insane rumors in this thread.

2. When you talk about $$/Subscriber don't forget that number is not entirely based on what ViaComm says. DISH uses cutting edge Mpeg2 technology. I know a lot of you are familiar with the development of other platforms such as Mpeg4 but believe it or not there are still enhancements being made to the Mpeg2 system DISH uses. They are even working quite diligently at trying to get PQ back up to specs regardless of what many think. Channels use bandwidth and there is only so much room on a bird. But it costs a lot of money to maintain every carrier on a service, down to each individual channel. With E* already having to pay money out of pocket on Public Interest channels and the fact they only make a marginal profit on shopping channels as well as taking a loss on locals (no, your $5/mo doesn't cover the cost of equipment in each local city and the cost it takes to transport that signal back to the uplink sites), DISH must take the retransmission costs of all additional channels into consideration. Those costs get passed on to the customers. So if the channel line up remains the same, the numbers ViaComm presented MAY represt true customer impact, but ViaComm is requiring the launching of services not previously carried. This will ultimately raise that $$/subscriber amount. I don't know the amount, but there are gray areas here to be considered. Also, as was stated by Charlie in his chat on 3/9, the number is much greater than 6 cents per.

3. This dispute won't last long. E* did not want to drop the channels. The contract forced them too. I won't say E* has no share of the blame but only in that they did not successfully negotiate a contract. ViaComm told them to take the channels down because the contract expired. E* had no choice. Just like ViaComm has no choice but to LET E* continue carrying Spike, TV Land, and CMT until their contracts expire. Be patient and hang in there, the channels will come back and chances are E* will end up paying less than D* and Cable did. But who knows, the contracts are confidential and only the executives and lawyers will ever really know.

Just some thoughts,

Crazy


----------



## Pizzaman

Most of us here probably have $2000+ televisions, $300+ receivers, $2000+ home theater gear, and $????+ other stuff tied up in this passion for entertainment.

I'm not going to gripe about another couple of bucks a month for programming. If these were channels I watched a lot, I'd really be PO'd that E* dropped them.

I left E* a while back. I'm tired of all the threats of programming changes (Turner, ESPN a while ago, limited baseball games last summer on FOXSP, etc.)

We're all bending over and taking it here. Charlie isn't going to lose money no matter what channels he gives or takes away from us. I want at least what I have and more - not less - and I'm willing to pay for it.


----------



## Tyralak

davpel said:


> But I will say this: at this particular point in history, I am more than happy to give Viacom the benefit of the doubt given their continued support for Howard Stern in the face of the firestorm drummed up by Bush and the religious right. Now if Charlie were in a dispute with Clear Channel, I might be a little more reluctant to jump ship!
> 
> Sorry for getting off topic a bit.
> 
> David


Better put back on your tin foil hat, buddy! Or else Bush is going to show up in his black hellicopter and read your mind!

Come back down to Earth here. The business with Stern wasn't "drummed up by Bush" or this mysterious, phantom "religious right" Bush has more important things to do than to hassle Howard Stern. Clear Channel was taking pre-emptive measures in order to avoid new regulations from the FCC, which were spurred on by complaints from AVERAGE FOLKS who have been hounding them ever since that stupid Janet Jackson thing. None of this has to do with Bush, or any secret conspiricy. And BTW, I'm a Stern fan. :rant:


----------



## Tyralak

undefined said:


> They can have the 811 back...


Give it to me!


----------



## dswallow

A 7% increase per year over 5 years would be a 40.2552% increase in the 5th year over the initial amount prior to the 1st increase.

http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/2004/03/05/rtr1288924.html


> EchoStar Chief Executive Charlie Ergen told reporters this week Viacom had asked for a 40-percent rate increase over an undisclosed multi-year period. But one of his own lawyers admitted in a San Francisco court Viacom was asking for an average 7-percent rate increase.


For example:



Code:


$0.857143 + $0.060000 (7%) = $0.917143
$0.917143 + $0.064200 (7%) = $0.981343
$0.981343 + $0.068694 (7%) = $1.050037
$1.050037 + $0.073503 (7%) = $1.123539
$1.123539 + $0.078648 (7%) = $1.202187

$0.857143 + $0.345044 (40.2552%) = $1.202187

The percentages work out no matter the amount, but I chose the amounts such that this years increase is $0.06, since that's what Viacom has been saying.

So, by the end of the agreement (presuming 5 years), you get a 40.2552% increase over today's rates, which is what Dish Network has been saying.

So, assuming this is to be paid for 9,000,000 customers monthly (ignoring projected subscriber growth):



Code:


Year 1  $8,254,285.71/month    $99,051,428.57/year  ($6,480,000.00/year increase)
Year 2  $8,832,085.71/month   $105,985,028.57/year  ($6,933,600.00/year increase)
Year 3  $9,450,331.71/month   $113,403,980.57/year  ($7,418,952.00/year increase)
Year 4  $10,111,854.93/month  $121,342,259.21/year  ($7,938,278.64/year increase)
Year 5  $10,819,684.78/month  $129,836,217.36/year  ($8,493,958.14/year increase)

TOTAL  $569,618,918.28/5 years  ($37,264,788.78/5-year increase)

In the 3/8/2004 Charlie Chat, Charlie Ergen mentioned some numbers:


> Outrageous Demands: over $200,000,000 in additional fees, and $350,000,000 more for lower viewership channels.


Those amounts are twisted somewhat, representing the sum total over 5 years of the amount to be paid for Viacom channels, not in the sense of the increase, but in the sense of making the channels available to all subscribers even those in the lowest tier. He's probably dividing out things per channel, and looking at some of the new channels as being a percentage of the total fee, and multiplying that across 9,000,000 subscribers, over 5 years, representing an average of $0.64815 per subscriber per month in "additional" costs due to making all channels available to lower tiers.

Partly, Dish Network quoting these "outrageous" sums is because Viacom wants all these channels as part of the basic backage, not only in a higher tier, so Dish Network would have to pay the full amount for every subscriber, rather than some portion for every subscriber and some portion for upper tier subscribers who're getting more of the Viacom channels.

And partly there's some other portion representing channels he doesn't want to carry, and he's assigning some per-subscriber per-month value to those.

I say all this roughly because there's probably a little difference in how this is all to be accounted for since some of Viacom's programming are the CBS stations, which would be paid only based on subscribers to them in those geographic areas.

But notice how the numbers all kind of match with rhetoric coming from both sides?

Now before Dish Network pulled the channels, it was reported Viacom was offering closer to a 5% annual increase.

http://finance.lycos.com/qc/news/story.aspx?symbols=NASDAQ:DISH&story=200403060221_RTR_N05472956


> Analysts said Viacom has demanded rate increases closer to a mid-single digit percentage rate. A source familiar with the negotiations said Viacom has now offered a 5-percent annual rate increase for its cable channels.


So running those numbers using the starting amount we derived above, what we might really be talking about now are:


Code:


$0.857143 + $0.042857 (5%) = $0.900000
$0.900000 + $0.045000 (5%) = $0.945000
$0.945000 + $0.047250 (5%) = $0.992250
$0.992250 + $0.049613 (5%) = $1.041863
$1.041863 + $0.052093 (5%) = $1.093956

$0.857143 + $0.236813 (27.6282%) = $1.093956

Now none of that seems all that outrageous financially to me. About the worst part of it is Viacom's desire to see all their channels within a basic tier, not spread across multiple tiers. And that does have slightly more effect on the total amounts involved, since it entails Dish Network paying the entire fee for additional subscribers, perhaps as many as 40%-60% of the 9,000,000 subscribers, instead of just on some subset.


----------



## Tyralak

psycaz said:


> I gotta wonder if this would be playing out like this if it was Direct TV. I would think that News Corp would be able to get its side of the story out much better than Dish is doing right now.
> 
> All I keep seeing on all threee cable news stations is how Dish pulled the networks, which isn't what happened - they can't broadcast them without a contract. News Corp would be sure that Fox would give it a lot of attention and present their side - "fair and balanced". Too bad we can't get both sides on one of the cable news shows and have someone point how bad this is for the consumer from BOTH sides.


Viacom wouldn't have dared try this with NewsCorp. Rupert would have chewed them up and spit them out. They're only getting away with it now, because E* is a much smaller company.


----------



## Tyralak

undefined said:


> Sounds like Bell ExpressVu to me!
> 
> If you want good satellite, forget US DBS providers. D* and E* both cost way too much and offer far too little choice. ExpressVU is the way to go if you want package choices that are bundled based on content (sports, kids, etc.), high definition networks (all of them), and inexpensive service.


Good luck getting that here.


----------



## Foxbat

As a current Dish subscriber, I (we) have been through a lot in the last year... problems with SuperDish, 921, & 811 availability, to name a few. A lot may consider switching to a different Programming Provider. All I've seen mentioned in this thread is DirecTV or local Cable. I wonder why nobody mentioned Voom as a replacment?

True, not everyone has HD (I do), but according to their website, Voom carries all the Viacom channels that Dish dropped. Anyone with Voom service lurking here that can confirm that these are live today?


----------



## Guest

I think most people on this thread are missing the big picture. Even if Charlie wins this one it obviously won't be the end. There are some really important questions here that aren't getting addressed by the industry or the government resulting in the bizarre confused state of affairs we're in now. What the cable/satellite operators offer is SO far from what consumers want, and the money paid by distributors for content is SO removed from some accurate supply/demand dynamic to keep things honest that we end up with this confusing and volatile mix of contracts that noone is happy with.

I don't have the answers, but I'd like to see this mess cleaned up by the entire industry. I admire Charlie for what he is doing, but I think he is too small a player to fix this. This, I think, is why the content holders fought so hard against the D*/ E* merger. But as long as the distributors fight amongst themselves the content holders are laughing their way to the bank.

Maybe the people on this thread can stop squabbling among themselves and swtart discussing long term solutions and what we as consumers can do to encourage them to be implemented?


----------



## jhickman

My wife told me that when a little boy she babysits was told that he couldn't see Nick or Noggin because they had been taken away, he summed it up pretty well when he said that "They need to be spanked!!!" Viacom and Dish BOTH need to be spanked because they're both acting like spoiled brats!!!


----------



## catnap1972

jhickman said:


> My wife told me that when a little boy she babysits was told that he couldn't see Nick or Noggin because they had been taken away, he summed it up pretty well when he said that "They need to be spanked!!!" Viacom and Dish BOTH need to be spanked because they're both acting like spoiled brats!!!


Much like many of the posters here.

WHAT? No Spongebob? They took off MTV? HOW DARE THEY!!!!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!


----------



## Guest

catnap1972 said:


> Much like many of the posters here.
> 
> WHAT? No Spongebob? They took off MTV? HOW DARE THEY!!!!
> 
> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!


Can we please stop posts like this? This does nothing but fan pointless flame wars. Anyone with enough interest in tv programming to hang out on this board should understand the concept of having a favorite network of program and being upset at that very network or program being removed. If you can't understand it, just roll your eyes and laugh like a super villain, don't waste bandwidth on this overburdened thread.


----------



## HeavyC

What I really can't believe is that Dish is only giving us 2 dollars a month as compensation for all this? Where are the customer loyalty deals on new equipment? Where are the price breaks on other programming packages to make up for all this?

I don't want to have to leave, there's a lot I like about Dish Network, but Charlie really isn't giving me much reason to ride this thing out and stay loyal.


----------



## FTA Michael

justalurker said:


> Noggin may be OK, but "The N" is a waste of transponder space. What does PBS Kids do in the off hours? It may be a viable replacement for Noggin and The N.


Agreed. The idea that preschoolers aren't interested in TV after 3pm Pacific always struck me as odd. The N is just trying for a whiff of that junior-high disposable cash crowd, IMHO.

Last time I checked, PBS Kids runs 12 (or was it 8?) hours of programming per day and simply repeats it in the evening. That's why I chose Dish, because its PBS national feed carried everything PBS Kids had and more.


----------



## dswallow

HeavyC said:


> I don't want to have to leave, there's a lot I like about Dish Network, but Charlie really isn't giving me much reason to ride this thing out and stay loyal.


What you're describing is not called loyalty. Loyalty is where you ride it out because you're loyal, not because you've been bribed.


----------



## greggg

HeavyC ( my new hero ) the rebate was the worst thing he could have done. Nobody cares about a Buck if their favorite show is off the air. Don't forget he raised rates 3 bucks so he is still making $. The right thing to do would have been to roll back the entire increase. I really don't get it though. People just seem to say "how far" when Charlie says bend over. I have too much invested in equipment now to move, which is why I am waiting things out. But if it does go on, I will be forced to look for alternatives. That's another thing. What CEO tells people to got to the competition if they can't live w/o the channels. Charlie also said he is in danger of missing the NCAA like everyone else. Bwahahaha! on that one.


----------



## dwhitehead

Hello... I got through to Sumner Redstone to complain! Here's how:

Viacom Main #: 212-258-6000 NO ANSWER

So I tried calling numbers close to get into their phone system.

212-258-6055 Gets into phone system. 
Press 0 at message. Wait a second and press 11.

It then asks for spelling of the last name followed by first name. I typed in sumner re and it transfered the call and he picked up on one ring.

GO FOR IT ALL! LET'S GET SOME ACTION FROM VIACOM! 
Quick Edit 
Subject: 
Message: 
Hello... I got through to Sumner Redstone to complain! Here's how:

Viacom Main #: 212-258-6000 NO ANSWER

So I tried calling numbers close to get into their phone system.

212-258-6055 Gets into phone system. 
Press 0 at message. Wait a second and press 11.

It then asks for spelling of the last name followed by first name. I typed in sumner re and it transfered the call and he picked up on one ring.

GO FOR IT ALL! LET'S GET SOME ACTION FROM VIACOM!


----------



## HeavyC

> What you're describing is not called loyalty. Loyalty is where you ride it out because you're loyal, not because you've been bribed.


It's not bribery. It's Dish thanking you for staying with them through a tough time. Dish obviously feels they have to compensate us, otherwise where would this 2 dollar thing come from? That's what gets my goat the most, 2 friggin dollars. I'd probably be less pissed off had they never even offered me that.

It insults my intelligence as a consumer. The math just doesn't add up. You take away 10+ channels and I get 1 dollar back. That's what they are worth? And you are squabbling over rate increases for channels that carry such a low perceived value to the consumer? These channels are worth more than that, and everyone knows it.

I was just suggesting that Charlie could probably completely stop any consumer exodous to DirecTV or Cable with a sweet upgrade deal. Not only that, he could probably lock these disgruntled users into new service agreements. He could keep me for another year if he offered me a good deal on HD equipment or a new DVR right now. If you want to call that bribery fine, but what he's offering now is just pushing people away.

I would only think it would make sense to give people such a good deal on something that they would be crazy to leave. I think Dish is severely overestimating the loyalty of their consumer base. I like them. Like I said, I don't want to leave, but they aren't giving me any reasons to stay either.


----------



## Guest

Recently Directv started charging a few more bucks a month for service. This must be why....but really if it amounts to just a few bucks more a month, i don't see why dish didn't just do it. To keep those channels it's worth it to me. Now i'm really glad i went with Directv. It would suck right now to be a dish network subscriber. Especially if you just signed up, and they won't let you out of your 1 year commitment. I'd be pissed.


----------



## Goodfella

dwhitehead said:


> Hello... I got through to Sumner Redstone to complain! Here's how:
> 
> Viacom Main #: 212-258-6000 NO ANSWER
> 
> So I tried calling numbers close to get into their phone system.
> 
> 212-258-6055 Gets into phone system.
> Press 0 at message. Wait a second and press 11.
> 
> It then asks for spelling of the last name followed by first name. I typed in sumner re and it transfered the call and he picked up on one ring.
> 
> GO FOR IT ALL! LET'S GET SOME ACTION FROM VIACOM!
> Quick Edit
> Subject:
> Message:
> Hello... I got through to Sumner Redstone to complain! Here's how:
> 
> Viacom Main #: 212-258-6000 NO ANSWER
> 
> So I tried calling numbers close to get into their phone system.
> 
> 212-258-6055 Gets into phone system.
> Press 0 at message. Wait a second and press 11.
> 
> It then asks for spelling of the last name followed by first name. I typed in sumner re and it transfered the call and he picked up on one ring.
> 
> GO FOR IT ALL! LET'S GET SOME ACTION FROM VIACOM!


My money goes to a place called DISH NETWORK, not VIACOM. It's up to DISH to take care of their customers, not VIACOM. They are both greedy sob's to be sure, but I'm a DISH customer. Calling VIACOM isn't my job. If I were* the* provider I'd expect customers to call me, not the guy I can't work things out with.


----------



## Mike123abc

Another way to look at this would be to consider if you were in the business. You have a supplier that wants to raise their rates. They have a product that is impossible to get elsewhere. You would probably just raise the cost of the item in your store and not worry about it. If people wanted it they would pay more. This would be like a' la carte pricing. It would be fair and there would be little complaint.

Now lets say that the supplier says well we want you to force EVERY customer you have to buy our product. Suddenly it looks very unfair and you would be upset. Especially when they say not only do you HAVE to sell every customer this, but we will raise prices X% a year every year, plus we have more products we want to have you sell to every customer.

The second scenario is the one TV providers have to live with. It is easy to see why people get mad. How would you deal with this if it was your business? I know people would say "oh I would pay right away", but they are probably not being truly honest, or thinking their answer through.


----------



## dswallow

HeavyC said:


> Dish obviously feels they have to compensate us, otherwise where would this 2 dollar thing come from? That's what gets my goat the most, 2 friggin dollars. I'd probably be less pissed off had they never even offered me that.
> 
> It insults my intelligence as a consumer. The math just doesn't add up. You take away 10+ channels and I get 1 dollar back. That's what they are worth? And you are squabbling over rate increases for channels that carry such a low perceived value to the consumer? These channels are worth more than that, and everyone knows it.


I think the Viacom channels (if you had them all) cost Dish Network about $0.85.

The local CBS station... I'd take the local channels charge and say any given major network channel is worth no more than 1/6th of that fee (unless your local market only has a subset of the 4 major networks).

So the $2 is about right. You're getting back in a credit what you're not getting in programming.

Now I think the channels are worth more than that as value to the overall package; but in terms of actual cost, that $1 credit is probably about right. Though it's certainly not in the category of an incentive to be loyal; it's just a refund for undelivered services.


----------



## dartonviper

I think everyone should stick with Charlie. The cable rates are going up month after month. 15 cents here 30 cents there. Charlie is just standing up for all of us, after all it's only TV. Why should Dish customers get nickel and dimed to death. As an installer for Dishnetwork, most of my customers are switching because of all of the price increases. I feel that will be a deal worked out and the rates might go up a little but hopefully they won't be that 40% that Viacom wants. Be patient and let Charlie do his work for us.
From the Upper Midwest


----------



## James_F

Mike Richardson said:


> Some DBS providers don't offer it temporarily, and when they do begin offering it again, in the long term it's gonna be cheaper for those DBS providers than it will be for people who must have their Sponge Bob immediately and without interruption.


LOL, sure that's right. Charles will give in because there will be this sucking sound of people who want their MTV/CBS/Nick. When he does, hikes your rates and then says its Viacom's fault, who will you blame? You should plame Charles due to the fact he is playing with *your* service. I'm sure in his mansion he is getting all the channles without any problem. 


> Maybe the merger would have been good. 20 million subs is a lot more weight to throw around. We'd have TiVo and superstations. Cheap pricing and more channels. (Perhaps Voom then would have more bandwidth to develop as a full-fledged competitor to keep things more equal.)


No because then I'd have to deal with this Charles ego crap. I'm happy with my DirecTV, MLB Extra Innings NFL Sunday Ticket and even my Nick. Don't be wishing this lunacy on those who have a provider that actually delivers channels, not talking heads of Charles telling you his is looking out for *you*.


----------



## greggg

The worst possible thing to think is that Charlie is the next Ralph Nader fighting for all of us. He is in it for one person himself. Nothing wrong with that, just don't try and convince me he is this great humanitarian. And why should we fight his battle and call Viacom. I paid Charlie to bring me the service, it's his job to come through.


----------



## Guest

dwhitehead said:


> Hello... I got through to Sumner Redstone to complain! Here's how:
> 
> Viacom Main #: 212-258-6000 NO ANSWER
> 
> So I tried calling numbers close to get into their phone system.
> 
> 212-258-6055 Gets into phone system.
> Press 0 at message. Wait a second and press 11.
> 
> It then asks for spelling of the last name followed by first name. I typed in sumner re and it transfered the call and he picked up on one ring.
> 
> GO FOR IT ALL! LET'S GET SOME ACTION FROM VIACOM!
> !


Information which I got: (This is all public record in corperate profiles on lexis-nexis)

CEO Sumner Redstone: 212-258-6310 (You'll get his secratary, Ask to leave a message, she will NOT patch you through, She will want to transfer you elsewhere, Don't let her, Ask to leave a message for Sumner, and be polite, otherwise your message will probably just get thrown away!)
Fax machine in his office: 212-258-6311 (Once again, try to be polite, or no one will even look at it, we want them to actucally read what we have to say)


----------



## Guest

Tyralak said:


> Viacom wouldn't have dared try this with NewsCorp. Rupert would have chewed them up and spit them out. They're only getting away with it now, because E* is a much smaller company.


LMAO. D* has roughly 1.5 million more subs, it's hardly a "much bigger company". Fact of the matter is that D* accepted Viacom's ridiculous demands, and bent over and added Nicktoons. They had no courage to stand up to Viacom, if they did, Nicktoons never would have been added.


----------



## Lurker

Viacom head hints at buying EchoStar

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040310-095725-6133r.htm


----------



## ypsiguy

Lurker said:


> Viacom head hints at buying EchoStar
> 
> http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040310-095725-6133r.htm


Not surprised, had an earlier post in one of these threads where I thought this was a possibility. I would much rather have Disney own E* than Viacrap. Redstone wants to damage E* a bit, so he doesn't have to pay as much for it.


----------



## Melishark

Goodfella said:


> My money goes to a place called DISH NETWORK, not VIACOM. It's up to DISH to take care of their customers, not VIACOM. They are both greedy sob's to be sure, but I'm a DISH customer. Calling VIACOM isn't my job. If I were* the* provider I'd expect customers to call me, not the guy I can't work things out with.


 Absolutely what Goodfella says !!!

Giving us numbers to call Viacom is just plain childish. Calling them only shows just how many customers are upset by this situation and gives them even more reason to keep the channels off until Dish agrees to pay.

We should have been left out of the 'bickering' but given a chance to share our opinions with DISH on if we would have wanted to pay the extra couple of bucks a month.


----------



## greggg

Getting people to call Viacom is smart on the part of Charlie. This way we fight his battle.


----------



## dswallow

greggg said:


> Getting people to call Viacom is smart on the part of Charlie. This way we fight his battle.


<-- "Thank you for calling Viacom. How may I help you?"
--> "I want your channels but can't get them on Dish Network"
<-- "I'm sorry to hear that, you can receive our channels on almost every cable system and via satellite on DirecTV. Just cancel your Dish Network subscription and contact DirecTV or your local cable company and they'll hook you up right away."
--> "Umm, but I want them on Dish Network."
<-- "I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do about that. You need to contact Dish Network to register your complaint. We can only tell you where you can receive our programming."

Yeah, real helpful telling all your subscribers to call Viacom. You may as well just tell them to call DirecTV or their local cable company.


----------



## PACOP

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## undefined

dswallow said:


> <-- "Thank you for calling Viacom. How may I help you?"
> --> "I want your channels but can't get them on Dish Network"
> <-- "I'm sorry to hear that, you can receive our channels on almost every cable system and via satellite on DirecTV. Just cancel your Dish Network subscription and contact DirecTV or your local cable company and they'll hook you up right away."
> --> "Umm, but I want them on Dish Network."
> <-- "I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do about that. You need to contact Dish Network to register your complaint. We can only tell you where you can receive our programming."
> 
> Yeah, real helpful telling all your subscribers to call Viacom. You may as well just tell them to call DirecTV or their local cable company.


He won't have to. Everyone I know has already called DirecTV or Comcast.

Perhaps Charlie thinks he'll get better rates when 5% - 10% of his subscribers go elsewhere? =)


----------



## Tyralak

Chris Walker said:


> LMAO. D* has roughly 1.5 million more subs, it's hardly a "much bigger company". Fact of the matter is that D* accepted Viacom's ridiculous demands, and bent over and added Nicktoons. They had no courage to stand up to Viacom, if they did, Nicktoons never would have been added.


Think about what I said for a minute before wiping your posterior all over the board.. NEWSCORP is a much bigger company. D* is a SMALL part of it. If Viacom pulled that kind of crap with D*, Rupert, (i.e. NewsCorp, an ENORMOUS company.) would hand them their ass on a platter. How do we know that they demanded the same increases from D*?


----------



## StinkyPantz

dswallow said:


> <-- "Thank you for calling Viacom. How may I help you?"
> --> "I want your channels but can't get them on Dish Network"
> <-- "I'm sorry to hear that, you can receive our channels on almost every cable system and via satellite on DirecTV. Just cancel your Dish Network subscription and contact DirecTV or your local cable company and they'll hook you up right away."
> --> "Umm, but I want them on Dish Network."
> <-- "I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do about that. You need to contact Dish Network to register your complaint. We can only tell you where you can receive our programming."
> 
> Yeah, real helpful telling all your subscribers to call Viacom. You may as well just tell them to call DirecTV or their local cable company.


I believe I heard Charlie say "Call another provider if you want theese chanels I'll even give you names and numbers" or something to that effect. What a mess! I'm pissed but I'm still going to wait it out for a bit longer.


----------



## Guest

Those of you saying just pay the money are not getting the point. Enough is enough with fee's being raised. We will make due ( and my kids ) with the Viacom stations just to make a point. Dish is the only company I know that will actually fight for us anymore. Or you can be like Cablevision, pay Viacom's fees and raise your rate every five months. Hang in there Charlie, I'll have someone tape Survivor for me and my kids can do with a little less TV.


----------



## undefined

Frankd said:


> Those of you saying just pay the money are not getting the point. Enough is enough with fee's being raised. We will make due ( and my kids ) with the Viacom stations just to make a point. Dish is the only company I know that will actually fight for us anymore. Or you can be like Cablevision, pay Viacom's fees and raise your rate every five months. Hang in there Charlie, I'll have someone tape Survivor for me and my kids can do with a little less TV.


As an avid Survivor and CSI (and CSI:M) fan, I am surprised by you. I couldn't care less about losing Nick or VH1 or MTV, but I lost CBS and that pisses me off. Fortunately, I have alterate means of getting CBS so it's not as big of an issue. It is an issue that I lost my CBS-HD feed, at it was the ONLY reason I went with Dish over DirecTV.

My issue is mostly with the fact that a lack of local channels has always been a cause of slow satellite deployment. People want their local networks. Now I'm paying for my local networks, but I'm getting only 75% of the big four. That is down right unacceptable. Comcast (which is not available to me) has all of them, US Cable (which is available to me) has all of them, DirecTV has all of them..... Dish needs to get with the program. They lost. They could not negotiate a better rate and now Charlie is pouting and trying to explain why he f*cked us out of CBS. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and today it is the consumer that lost.

Shame on you, Charlie. :nono2:


----------



## Guest

StinkyPantz said:


> I believe I heard Charlie say "Call another provider if you want theese chanels I'll even give you names and numbers" or something to that effect. What a mess! I'm pissed but I'm still going to wait it out for a bit longer.


Yeah, that went over like a lead balloon. What a prick.


----------



## dswallow

Let's look at how much Dish Network would have to change the price of each package where Viacom channels are to be found.

Viacom apparently wants Dish Network to include their channels in all tiers. But not all of their channels are included in all tiers. So there would be an incremental cost that's different for each tier of programming.

The widely discussed $0.06/subscriber/month increase would only apply to AT180 or AEP since those are the only package now including all Viacom channels.

AT120 now includes 8 of the 10 Viacom channels, so for purposes of this discussion, that's 80% of Dish Network's current cost for the Viacom package, meaning 20% of the cost of the whole package would be an added expense for Dish Network.

AT60 now includes 6 of the 10 Viacom channels, so that leaves 40% of the cost of the whole package as an added expense for Dish Network.

Dish Latino includes 1 Viacom channel (MTV Espanol), but for purposes of discussion, let's just say this wouldn't change, due to the nature of it being spanish-language programming only.

I'll use the current monthly cost to Dish Network for all Viacom channels of $0.857143 from an earlier post in this example.

So, the monthly incremental costs for Dish Network would be:

$0.0600/AEP subscriber
$0.0600/AT180 subscriber
$0.2314/AT120 subscriber (20% of $0.857143 cost of Viacom channels + $0.0600 increase)
$0.4029/AT60 subscriber (40% of $0.857143 cost of Viacom channels + $0.0600 increase)

I've left out discussing the CBS stations since they affect only existing subscribers, and the $0.0600 increase discussed actually included increased costs for the CBS stations, so this incremental cost is already reflected in the costs detailed above.

To pass 100% of the cost directly on to subscribers, here's what package prices would look like (I'm rounding everything up to the nearest penny).


AT60: $27.40
AT60 + Locals: $30.40
AT60 PLUS: $30.40
AT60 PLUS + Locals: $35.40

AT120: $35.23
AT120 + Locals: $40.23
AT120 PLUS: $52.23
AT120 PLUS + Locals: $57.23

AT180: $45.05
AT180 + Locals: $50.05
AT180 + HBO + Cinemax: $62.05
AT180 + HBO + Cinemax + Locals: $67.05

AEP: $78.05
AEP: $83.05

ANd in addition, all the Viacom channels would now be in all packages (including the new channels Viacom wants to bundle in).


----------



## HeavyC

I'm actually flabergasted that any CEO would recommend to their customers that they leave for any reason. It's just bad business. He should be bending over backwards to keep us right now, not giving us the numbers to DireTV and Cable Companies and showing us the door. That does nothing but hurt the company. I really question the value in that business decision.

Everyone I've talked to has pretty much been left scratching their heads on that one as well.


----------



## scaredpoet

HeavyC said:


> I'm actually flabergasted that any CEO would recommend to their customers that they leave for any reason.


Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember hearing ONCE that he recommended people leave. What was said was more on the lines of, yes, there other access options out there, and he acknowledges that some people will seek out those options. Nowhere did I hear anything like "Bye, don't let the dish hit you on the way out."

I have to ask again, would you rather he told people that they have no choice, and that they must stay?


----------



## MarkA

"What's with you and spongebob ? Do you honestly think that's why people are mad ... because we lost spongebob ?

Nick at Nite had many good programs on at night and VH1 had the 80's videos all of the time. 

It's not about Spongebob at all."

Spongbob is my hero  Spongbob is the only thing good in Viacom  Oh, and of course some of the older Nick shows like Hey Arnold! and Doug (real Doug before Disney bought it and ruined it)


----------



## Mark Holtz

The Grand Rapids Press: Want your MTV? You won't find it on DISH
Boston Globe: CBS, EchoStar nearing agreement to end fee dispute, officials say

Also, I heard one analyst say that this dispute will last three weeks before it starts hurting both companies, and that Dish has the advantage. I can't locate the article, but checking Google News should bring up the article.


----------



## nicepants

Viacom/E* on the news on TechTV today. Sounds like they're putting the Viacom spin on things a bit. "Echostar pulled the channels...."

Got the clip here.

http://www.jasonskidmore.com/viacomsux/techtv.wmv


----------



## StinkyPantz

scaredpoet said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember hearing ONCE that he recommended people leave. What was said was more on the lines of, yes, there other access options out there, and he acknowledges that some people will seek out those options. Nowhere did I hear anything like "Bye, don't let the dish hit you on the way out."
> 
> I have to ask again, would you rather he told people that they have no choice, and that they must stay?


It's not a matter of him giving us a choice or not. He clearly said he would rather loose customers to companies that carry V* than give in to what he calls Un-Reasonable demands, he than said he will tell you where to go tho get V8 channels (like we don't know all ready). It was a poor and un-professional move in my opinion to make any comment about switching to another company. From the viewpoint of a new customer 2 months and counting It did nothing to make me feel like my $90+ a month subscription isn't going to suffer this same fate again.


----------



## scaredpoet

Pizzaman said:


> Most of us here probably have $2000+ televisions, $300+ receivers, $2000+ home theater gear, and $????+ other stuff tied up in this passion for entertainment.


*shrug* If you say so, but I don't. For some of us, TV doesn't rule our lives. I'm just has happy surfing the 'net or reading a book, and to be honest, I haven't watched a network channel in over a year (I subscribe to them anyway, just in case, but major network TV holds o real interest to me right now).

And while my setup isn't junkyard issue either (decent-sized screens, audio and PVR), I just can't really justify to myself spending multiple thousands on something I only spend at most, 1-2 hours a day watching, on the days I watch at all. I *could* afford it, but if it doesn't interest me, then why?

This is the same thinking I apply when I pay for my programming package. yeah, I'm one of the cheapskates who got DISH because it's the cheapest. There just a set threshold I'm willing to pay for what I see as mediocre, dumb programming, and if I have to pay more because networks are charging more, then they better give me something to entice me to think that the price hike is worth paying.


----------



## Guest

Notes on some of these anti-Dish cliches going around lately:

"It's only 6 cents, just pay it Charlie"
-----------------------------------
Do a search and you'll find people refuting this "6 cent" lie all over the place. It's not just 6 cents! If it was we'd still have the channels. Dish has no motive to simply piss people off for 6 cents.

"Charlie just hates those channels"
---------------------------------
Come on, do you really think Chuck has some personal stake in programing? Dish offers everything from porn to Cricket to catholic broadcasting, so I doubt Chuckie cares about certain programing over another. I'm sure there's a reason (besides Viacom using CBS as a weapon) Dish isn't just giving in. I'm sure they did the research and decided the business could risk losing Viacom. From what I've heard, people aren't leaving for cable or D* en-mase yet. I know it's popular and easy to spout paranoid conspiracy theories about how evil King Charles is trying to kill off Nickelodeon and Bevis and Butthead and the Man Show but get real.

"Only $1 dollar doesn't cover losing 10 channels"
----------------------------------------------
While I agree in principal with this statement, actually if you do the math, depending on what package you choose (top 100 for instance) each channel is worth about 40-80 cents from a strictly numbers perspective. So actually $1 more than covers losing that proportion of channels - not taking into account different tastes of course. At least we're getting something back. No law that says Dish had to give us $1 even. Frankly I'd pay them $1 to get rid of some of these channels, but that's just me. 

Bottom line, if enough people leave Dish then something will happen. But don't be surprised if most people stay and Viacom goes bye-bye or caves. Looking at the current poll numbers it looks like despite many people bashing Charlie in here, most folks side with Dish on this one. Count me as one of them too.


----------



## willy

ViacomTookMyLunchMoney said:


> Looking at the current poll numbers it looks like despite many people bashing Charlie in here, most folks side with Dish on this one. Count me as one of them too.


Great post!

:joy: :jumpingja :icon_bb:


----------



## scooper

My local CBS did much the same - When I sent them feedback about it being so one-sided (for Viacom), this is what I got back (names deleted to protect appropriate)

------------start quoted email----------------------
Both are true. If Viacom and Dish cannot come to terms prior to their existing Agreement expiring, then there is no Agreement for Dish to continue to carry their signals. This sort of thing only hurts the viewers, but Viacom is the owner of several cable channels and CBS and should be compensated for their products. 
Historically Dish just took the signals with no compensation to the owner and has since grossly under valued the programming channels. Viacom is saying enough is enough.
Again, it is unfortunate that the greed of one or both parties ends up hurting the viewers until a new Agreement is in place.
------------end quoted email----------------------

While I can't disagree about some of the shenangans that Dish has pulled in the past, for the most part this balanced response is more what I would have expected from a non- O&O CBS affiliate. And I do think Viacom should get REASONABLE compensation for their content - but increases at greater than the rate of inflation are NOT reasonable.


----------



## Guest

Breaking news...polls don't pay the bills. =)


----------



## Guest

lol said:


> Breaking news...polls don't pay the bills. =)


Huh??#!?#[email protected]#@ What's your point? Polls show that most will stay with Dish, staying means paid bills...uhhh, I'm not getting your point, but thanks for the deep thought anyway.


----------



## jeffwtux

ViacomTookMyLunchMoney said:


> "Only $1 dollar doesn't cover losing 10 channels"
> ----------------------------------------------
> While I agree in principal with this statement, actually if you do the math, depending on what package you choose (top 100 for instance) each channel is worth about 40-80 cents from a strictly numbers perspective. So actually $1 more than covers losing that proportion of channels - not taking into account different tastes of course. At least we're getting something back. No law that says Dish had to give us $1 even. Frankly I'd pay them $1 to get rid of some of these channels, but that's just me.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> If each channel is worth 40-80 cents then how is $1/month enough to cover 6-10 channels? I have never said that Viacom is right, but I have said that Charlie is wrong for how he is treating his customers and retailers. If they are trying to be the good guys and be on the customers side, then they should be giving back 100% of what they aren't paying Viacom. They are eating a profit from this and that's an outrage. THEY DESERVE TO BE HARASSED AND TERRORIZED OVER THAT!!!!


----------



## Guest

HeavyC said:


> I'm actually flabergasted that any CEO would recommend to their customers that they leave for any reason. It's just bad business. He should be bending over backwards to keep us right now, not giving us the numbers to DireTV and Cable Companies and showing us the door. That does nothing but hurt the company. I really question the value in that business decision.
> 
> Everyone I've talked to has pretty much been left scratching their heads on that one as well.


Charlie never recommended leaving, but he did show you the door. Again I ask: why should he be loyal to you if you're not loyal to him? If you feel the only way you will be happy is with those channels your way right away, he is saying go because he can't provide you with them right now.

Crazy


----------



## undefined

jeffwtux said:


> ViacomTookMyLunchMoney said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Only $1 dollar doesn't cover losing 10 channels"
> ----------------------------------------------
> While I agree in principal with this statement, actually if you do the math, depending on what package you choose (top 100 for instance) each channel is worth about 40-80 cents from a strictly numbers perspective. So actually $1 more than covers losing that proportion of channels - not taking into account different tastes of course. At least we're getting something back. No law that says Dish had to give us $1 even. Frankly I'd pay them $1 to get rid of some of these channels, but that's just me.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> If each channel is worth 40-80 cents then how is $1/month enough to cover 6-10 channels? I have never said that Viacom is right, but I have said that Charlie is wrong for how he is treating his customers and retailers. If they are trying to be the good guys and be on the customers side, then they should be giving back 100% of what they aren't paying Viacom. They are eating a profit from this and that's an outrage. THEY DESERVE TO BE HARASSED AND TERRORIZED OVER THAT!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Or do what my coworkers have done - call Comcast and trade that Dish in. Forget about terrorizing (bad term these days) anyone - just take your business elsewhere. As soon as I can figure a way out of my contract I'm gone. Charlie can kiss my a$$ on the way out.
Click to expand...


----------



## jeffwtux

undefined said:


> Or do what my coworkers have done - call Comcast and trade that Dish in. Forget about terrorizing (bad term these days) anyone - just take your business elsewhere. As soon as I can figure a way out of my contract I'm gone. Charlie can kiss my a$$ on the way out.


Well, I can't get Comcast.


----------



## Guest

Melishark said:


> Absolutely what Goodfella says !!!
> 
> Giving us numbers to call Viacom is just plain childish. Calling them only shows just how many customers are upset by this situation and gives them even more reason to keep the channels off until Dish agrees to pay.
> 
> We should have been left out of the 'bickering' but given a chance to share our opinions with DISH on if we would have wanted to pay the extra couple of bucks a month.


Viacomm has been running crawls and commercials on all of their channels, including those E* is not dropping telling customers to call E* and complain. They are even lying saying that channels like Spike and TV Land will be dropping, even though they're not. They are wording it so as to say it is E* removing them and Viacomm has no part in it which is also not true. I think that is childish.

Charlie has suggested calling ViaComm as well as your congressman. Charlie's methods are boiler-plate business tactics that have been used for a lot longer than he has even been in business. I notice that most of your posts seem very one-sided in that you seem to believe this is all Charlie's fault which I can understand considering Viacomm is trying very hard to make it appear that way. But it is not the case. The blame is shared.

Viacomm has done nothing but bash E* in this entire ordeal. Charlie has yet to say a single duragotory thing. He has defended his company which I believe he has the right to do, but he has kept it professional. Sending crawls out to millions of customers telling lies like Viacomm is doing is almost slander. Who really is childish here?


----------



## undefined

jeffwtux said:


> Well, I can't get Comcast.


Neither can I :lol:

There is always Voom or DirecTV.


----------



## HeavyC

> Charlie never recommended leaving, but he did show you the door. Again I ask: why should he be loyal to you if you're not loyal to him? If you feel the only way you will be happy is with those channels your way right away, he is saying go because he can't provide you with them right now.
> 
> Crazy


I don't know...call me crazy, but if I was running a Sat TV Company, I'd be trying to find every way possible to make sure that one single person didn't lose faith in Dish because of this. It doesn't look good when the CEO comes out on TV and says....'well, I don't know what's going to happen, maybe you'll have to try our competitors' or something along those lines. It makes the company look weak.

Why not come out and say something like this? "We're really sorry about the loss of these channels, but we encourage you to stick with us through this. We are trying our best to get them back as soon as possible. To make up for this, and to thank you for being patient we are going to offer you all X, Y, or Z".

As long as X, Y, or Z isn't a 1 dollar credit, he'd probably go a long way to keeping more customers in the flock. That's just my opinion. I don't think he did any service to his company by even introducing the possiblity that customers should/could go somewhere else.


----------



## Guest

Chris Walker said:


> LMAO. D* has roughly 1.5 million more subs, it's hardly a "much bigger company". Fact of the matter is that D* accepted Viacom's ridiculous demands, and bent over and added Nicktoons. They had no courage to stand up to Viacom, if they did, Nicktoons never would have been added.


E* total subscribers are just under 10 million. D* is just over 16 million. Where do you get only a 1.5 million sub difference? Not to mention that Rupert owns much more than D*, such as Newscorp and overseas Satellite companies.


----------



## undefined

Crazy D* Man said:


> Viacomm has been running crawls and commercials on all of their channels, including those E* is not dropping telling customers to call E* and complain. They are even lying saying that channels like Spike and TV Land will be dropping, even though they're not. They are wording it so as to say it is E* removing them and Viacomm has no part in it which is also not true. I think that is childish.
> 
> Charlie has suggested calling ViaComm as well as your congressman. Charlie's methods are boiler-plate business tactics that have been used for a lot longer than he has even been in business. I notice that most of your posts seem very one-sided in that you seem to believe this is all Charlie's fault which I can understand considering Viacomm is trying very hard to make it appear that way. But it is not the case. The blame is shared.
> 
> Viacomm has done nothing but bash E* in this entire ordeal. Charlie has yet to say a single duragotory thing. He has defended his company which I believe he has the right to do, but he has kept it professional. Sending crawls out to millions of customers telling lies like Viacomm is doing is almost slander. Who really is childish here?


That's the thing - some of us don't really *CARE* who is at fault. I didn't contract with Viacom. I want their content, and I subscribed to Dish network to receive it (along with other channels). I'm in an O&O area, so now I lost one of my major networks. That is unacceptable. Charlie can try and point people at the advertisers, or at the local stations, or at Viacom - but in the end it is his *problem*. He runs Echostar - he offers services that include Viacom's content, he is responsible for maintaining those contracts. If he offers to his customers a rate of x dollars that will not change for y months, and his suppliers of content (read: Viacom) increase his costs, that it not the customers problem until y months have lapsed. This didn't happen overnight, and his stubborn nature that so many people are defending is costing us in services that we have paid for. Viacom is by no means in the right here, but like I said - none of us do business with Viacom. I don't care if Viacom is run by hell spawns and is trying to extract $600 per customer instead of $0.06 from Dish - Dish needs to get this fixed.


----------



## jeffwtux

Crazy D* Man said:


> E* total subscribers are just under 10 million. D* is just over 16 million. Where do you get only a 1.5 million sub difference? Not to mention that Rupert owns much more than D*, such as Newscorp and overseas Satellite companies.


Get your facts straight D* has less than 12 million.


----------



## dswallow

Crazy D* Man said:


> E* total subscribers are just under 10 million. D* is just over 16 million. Where do you get only a 1.5 million sub difference? Not to mention that Rupert owns much more than D*, such as Newscorp and overseas Satellite companies.





jeffwtux said:


> Get your facts straight D* has less than 12 million.


"Facts" are just flying everywhere in this thread.

1/8/2004 http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20040108S0011:


> For the full year, DirecTV added 1.2 million net subscribers, bringing the total number for the year to *12.2 million* cusutomers.


1/30/2004 http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/sacramento/story/8184993p-9116316c.html (best I could find quickly)



> Beginning Sunday, Dish Network, with about *9 million subscribers*, will raise rates on its three most popular packages by an average of $1.33, or 2.4 percent.


----------



## Guest

HeavyC said:


> I don't know...call me crazy, but if I was running a Sat TV Company, I'd be trying to find every way possible to make sure that one single person didn't lose faith in Dish because of this. It doesn't look good when the CEO comes out on TV and says....'well, I don't know what's going to happen, maybe you'll have to try our competitors' or something along those lines. It makes the company look weak.
> 
> Why not come out and say something like this? "We're really sorry about the loss of these channels, but we encourage you to stick with us through this. We are trying our best to get them back as soon as possible. To make up for this, and to thank you for being patient we are going to offer you all X, Y, or Z".
> 
> As long as X, Y, or Z isn't a 1 dollar credit, he'd probably go a long way to keeping more customers in the flock. That's just my opinion. I don't think he did any service to his company by even introducing the possiblity that customers should/could go somewhere else.


Again, is Charlie fighting for his company or for the customer? Both. It's kind of like, if you love someone you have to let them go. I know, bad analogy but does make the point. Charlie doesn't want to lose a single customer but he knows that some customers are going to leave. Why fight them on it? Help them out and wish them the best. It's called caring for the customer. Charlie is going to protect the interests of his company no matter what and if by doing that some customers choose to leave, he is going to help them do so. He will have a better product in the long run. He never once encouraged customers to leave, he just offered to help those who make the decision to do so. I don't see the flaw in this.


----------



## jeffwtux

Ok, sorry I underestimated that D* count but that 12.2 is pretty new. The last count I saw must have been the Q4 count. Anyways, it's nowhere near 16 million.



dswallow said:


> "Facts" are just flying everywhere in this thread.
> 
> 1/8/2004 http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20040108S0011:
> 
> 1/30/2004 http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/sacramento/story/8184993p-9116316c.html (best I could find quickly)


----------



## dswallow

jeffwtux said:


> Ok, sorry I underestimated that D* count but that 12.2 is pretty new. The last count I saw must have been the Q4 count. Anyways, it's nowhere near 16 million.


Well, you were closer, and I only added your quote to my post after I saw you'd posted before I did about it. 

We're also nearing the end of 2004Q1, so I'd expect both of those figures to be a bit low by now, too. Maybe by 300,000-400,000.


----------



## FTA Michael

Reuters says the two sides say they're making progress.

http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt.jsp?news_id=bus-n10594092&feed=bus&date=20040310

Quotes that support my old theory that Congress/FCC won't let this linger:

"We're making progress and I think we'll have a resolution in a very timely fashion," (CBS exec veep Martin) Franks said to the U.S. House Commerce subcommittee on telecommunciations.

... Lawmakers were particularly keen to see an agreement since many of their constituents were calling their offices to complain and because the popular national college basketball tournament starts next week and airs on CBS.


----------



## Guest

undefined said:


> That's the thing - some of us don't really *CARE* who is at fault. I didn't contract with Viacom. I want their content, and I subscribed to Dish network to receive it (along with other channels). I'm in an O&O area, so now I lost one of my major networks. That is unacceptable. Charlie can try and point people at the advertisers, or at the local stations, or at Viacom - but in the end it is his *problem*. He runs Echostar - he offers services that include Viacom's content, he is responsible for maintaining those contracts. If he offers to his customers a rate of x dollars that will not change for y months, and his suppliers of content (read: Viacom) increase his costs, that it not the customers problem until y months have lapsed. This didn't happen overnight, and his stubborn nature that so many people are defending is costing us in services that we have paid for. Viacom is by no means in the right here, but like I said - none of us do business with Viacom. I don't care if Viacom is run by hell spawns and is trying to extract $600 per customer instead of $0.06 from Dish - Dish needs to get this fixed.


E* never guarenteed you those channels. They only guarenteed you a package with a certain number of channels in it. Check your service agreement. You agreed you would receive a certain number of channels. He is not responsibile for maintaining those contracts at all, he only is responsible for providing you with the number of channels in your programming package. It is not HIS stubborn nature, it is all of them, Charlie and the CEO of Viacomm included. To blindly sit here and say HE needs to fix it and Viacomm has no part in this is ignorant. That's like saying if Rupert drops all of FOX tomorrow (because he owns them) and you can't see it on DISH, it's Charlie's fault.


----------



## JoeQ

undefined said:


> I'm pretty confident that once you become a DirecTV customer you will not be a disgruntled Dish network customer again


Right, you get to become a disgruntled DirecTV customer in a few years.

That is what happened to me 4 years ago. Dumped DirectV due to dissatisfaction and went to DISH and I am staying.


----------



## jeffwtux

Crazy D* Man said:


> Again, is Charlie fighting for his company or for the customer? Both. It's kind of like, if you love someone you have to let them go. I know, bad analogy but does make the point. Charlie doesn't want to lose a single customer but he knows that some customers are going to leave. Why fight them on it? Help them out and wish them the best. It's called caring for the customer. Charlie is going to protect the interests of his company no matter what and if by doing that some customers choose to leave, he is going to help them do so. He will have a better product in the long run. He never once encouraged customers to leave, he just offered to help those who make the decision to do so. I don't see the flaw in this.


I agree that there's nothing Charlie can do to keep the customers who can't live 1 day without Spongebob, but he shouldn't be losing customers because they think he's ripping them off on this $1 thing either. He should be refunding 100% of what he would normally pay for these channels, and he's clearly not.


----------



## undefined

Crazy D* Man said:


> E* never guarenteed you those channels. They only guarenteed you a package with a certain number of channels in it. Check your service agreement. You agreed you would receive a certain number of channels. He is not responsibile for maintaining those contracts at all, he only is responsible for providing you with the number of channels in your programming package. It is not HIS stubborn nature, it is all of them, Charlie and the CEO of Viacomm included. To blindly sit here and say HE needs to fix it and Viacomm has no part in this is ignorant. That's like saying if Rupert drops all of FOX tomorrow (because he owns them) and you can't see it on DISH, it's Charlie's fault.


Let's see... we lost 10 or 11 channels, so I don't think I'm getting my AT120. Do they have an AT109 package that I missed?


----------



## dswallow

undefined said:


> Let's see... we lost 10 or 11 channels, so I don't think I'm getting my AT120. Do they have an AT109 package that I missed?


Didn't someone say they were running info screens or segments of Charlie chatting on all the blacked-out channels?

Those are channels, too.


----------



## jeffwtux

dswallow said:


> Didn't someone say they were running info screens or segments of Charlie chatting on all the blacked-out channels?
> 
> Those are channels, too.


No, just the music with the viacom shutdown information. Charlie is only on Channel 101


----------



## Guest

undefined said:


> Let's see... we lost 10 or 11 channels, so I don't think I'm getting my AT120. Do they have an AT109 package that I missed?


Count again. There has always been more channels in the packages than they actually say they included. You might not like all of them but they are there.


----------



## Danbo

jeffwtux said:


> No, just the music with the viacom shutdown information. Charlie is only on Channel 101


Incorrect. Last night, when I first saw I could no longer receive CBS, they were broadcasting excerpts from the Charlie Chat stuff on my CBS channel. Once that's over, it's just music and some short lame message. Again, this morning, more excerpts from Charlie Chat (sorta like the same one, although I didn't pay attention to it). So yes, they are broadcasting some of the CC stuff from time to time on the channels that were pulled (at least the CBS one).


----------



## TonyM

Danbo said:


> Incorrect. Last night, when I first saw I could no longer receive CBS, they were broadcasting excerpts from the Charlie Chat stuff on my CBS channel. Once that's over, it's just music and some short lame message. Again, this morning, more excerpts from Charlie Chat (sorta like the same one, although I didn't pay attention to it). So yes, they are broadcasting some of the CC stuff from time to time on the channels that were pulled (at least the CBS one).


Last nite at 7 eastern, there was a special CC on the CBS station that people lost. They answered questions and such (I was in que to ask a question when my cell died...grrrr).
After that (at least on WCCO..Mpls) they have been running the replay of that CC since 7:40 eastern last nite..It was on this morning.
101 had a replay of this CC at 9 eastern. Otherwise it has been the same 5 minute Charlie "why your channels arent here" video.


----------



## newsub

TonyM said:


> Last nite at 7 eastern, there was a special CC on the CBS station that people lost. They answered questions and such (I was in que to ask a question when my cell died...grrrr).
> After that (at least on WCCO..Mpls) they have been running the replay of that CC since 7:40 eastern last nite..It was on this morning.
> 101 had a replay of this CC at 9 eastern. Otherwise it has been the same 5 minute Charlie "why your channels arent here" video.


All I'm saying is this better get solved soon because I contacted my cable company to see what they would offer me to jump ship and they are offering me 2 free YEARS of DIGITAL CABLE and 1 free YEAR of HBO AND SHOWTIME. I emailed them back to see what is all involved in this offer and if it's not too good to be true I'm probably going to take them up on their offer. I mean hell it's two years free service.


----------



## Paul Secic

nicepants said:


> Viacom/E* on the news on TechTV today. Sounds like they're putting the Viacom spin on things a bit. "Echostar pulled the channels...."
> 
> Got the clip here.
> 
> http://www.jasonskidmore.com/viacomsux/techtv.wmv


Thats a repeat from yesterday.


----------



## psycaz

I haven't seen anybody from the tv media report anything other than: Dish pulls Viacom channels.


----------



## MrAkai

psycaz said:


> I haven't seen anybody from the tv media report anything other than: Dish pulls Viacom channels.


It was on the FOX (KTVU) news yesterday and the SF Chonricle reported on it too, I think in markets that lost CBS there's more of an awareness.

That said, with no Letterman last night I got to get reminded why I don't watch Leno....


----------



## Paul Secic

scaredpoet said:


> *shrug* If you say so, but I don't. For some of us, TV doesn't rule our lives. I'm just has happy surfing the 'net or reading a book, and to be honest, I haven't watched a network channel in over a year (I subscribe to them anyway, just in case, but major network TV holds o real interest to me right now).
> 
> And while my setup isn't junkyard issue either (decent-sized screens, audio and PVR), I just can't really justify to myself spending multiple thousands on something I only spend at most, 1-2 hours a day watching, on the days I watch at all. I *could* afford it, but if it doesn't interest me, then why?
> 
> This is the same thinking I apply when I pay for my programming package. yeah, I'm one of the cheapskates who got DISH because it's the cheapest. There just a set threshold I'm willing to pay for what I see as mediocre, dumb programming, and if I have to pay more because networks are charging more, then they better give me something to entice me to think that the price hike is worth paying.


I don't have a HDTV set, nor do I need one. I read books, run. I don't thousands of dollars for nonsense.


----------



## undefined

Paul Secic said:


> I don't thousands of dollars for nonsense.


You need to find better books. Specifically, you need to find books that include verbs :lol:

Just kidding


----------



## Guest

Paul Secic said:


> I don't have a HDTV set, nor do I need one. I read books, run. I don't thousands of dollars for nonsense.


 WTF DUDE? Why are you here posting on this board? Your last sentence makes no sence either maybe you should read more books or go running


----------



## StinkyPantz

I heard on CNN a while ago that a new V* E* deal is in the works and it should not be too long untill all chanels are back. I sure hope it's the real deal this time.


----------



## TonyM

MrAkai said:


> It was on the FOX (KTVU) news yesterday and the SF Chonricle reported on it too, I think in markets that lost CBS there's more of an awareness..


Last night on ABC (KSTP) 10:00 news (Mpls), they said "People woke up this morning to find some of their favorite channels, and one local channel, *MTV*, missing on Dish Network."

I didnt know MTV was a local network in Minneapolis??
**sigh**no wonder KSTP is in last place for news.....stuff like this


----------



## Melishark

Dillbroe said:


> WTF DUDE? Why are you here posting on this board? Your last sentence makes no sence either maybe you should read more books or go running


 Uhhhhh ... sence ? :eek2:

Nevermind.

See how silly it is to pick on someone for spelling or grammar errors ?

I think we're all upset and should not be picking on eachother. Debating is one thing ... picking on eachother is another.

We're no better than the bullies that we're complaining about. :nono2:


----------



## Richard King

I don't know if this has been posted previously, but it looks like progress is being made.
CBS, EchoStar See Progress in Resolution 
http://portfolios.abcnews.go.com/qu...ce=reuters&path=/Reuters/20040310/1621_91.xml


----------



## Cyclone

Melishark said:


> Uhhhhh ... sence ? :eek2:
> 
> Nevermind.
> 
> See how silly it is to pick on someone for spelling or grammar errors ?
> 
> I think we're all upset and should not be picking on eachother. Debating is one thing ... picking on eachother is another.
> 
> We're no better than the bullies that we're complaining about. :nono2:


Soooo Sorrrrry Mr. High and Mighty. Good thing you are here to set everyone straight. You know, because everyone loves to be corrected.


----------



## Melishark

Cyclone said:


> Soooo Sorrrrry Mr. High and Mighty. Good thing you are here to set everyone straight. You know, because everyone loves to be corrected.


 LOL it wasn't me that was doing the correcting - I was pointing out how silly it was ... but I'm glad you got my name right.

I thank ya.

Happy Wednesday !! :grin:


----------



## Tyralak

ViacomTookMyLunchMoney said:


> Notes on some of these anti-Dish cliches going around lately:


Wonderful post! Why aren't you registered? Get registered and jump in with the rest of us. We won't bite.


----------



## ypsiguy

JoeQ said:


> Right, you get to become a disgruntled DirecTV customer in a few years.
> 
> That is what happened to me 4 years ago. Dumped DirectV due to dissatisfaction and went to DISH and I am staying.


Amen to this... I dumped Comcrap cuz all the seemed to offer was a lot of Viacon crap, along with high prices and lousy service. So I have no problems with a Viacon-less Dish Network. Costs less and the people are nice when u call, too.


----------



## ypsiguy

undefined said:


> Or do what my coworkers have done - call Comcast and trade that Dish in. Forget about terrorizing (bad term these days) anyone - just take your business elsewhere. As soon as I can figure a way out of my contract I'm gone. Charlie can kiss my a$$ on the way out.


Good Luck! Maybe you'll get a mystery charge of $881 like I did from them. You'll see more ''red" over something like that, than over a few missing Viacon channels.


----------



## JohnH

You will find that MTV2, VH1 Classic, Noggin, GAS and MTV Espanol are back in your EPG, but they have the slate up.


----------



## Tyralak

newsub said:


> All I'm saying is this better get solved soon because I contacted my cable company to see what they would offer me to jump ship and they are offering me 2 free YEARS of DIGITAL CABLE and 1 free YEAR of HBO AND SHOWTIME. I emailed them back to see what is all involved in this offer and if it's not too good to be true I'm probably going to take them up on their offer. I mean hell it's two years free service.


Holy $&#%@^!!!! 2 YEARS? If you can stand the horrible cable boxes most cable providers have, that's a hard deal to beat. I didn't mind the quality of my local cabe company (Charter) but it just got too pricy, and they wanted $10 for a DVR. Plus the DCT2000 boxes they used were painful to use. Horribly slow, no timer features to synchronize with my VCR, really crappy menus, etc.


----------



## ypsiguy

JohnH said:


> You will find that MTV2, VH1 Classic, Noggin, GAS and MTV Espanol are back in your EPG, but they have the slate up.


A deal must be close, I was hoping that GAS, Classic, Noggin and MTV2 would get the boot. Oh well.


----------



## Tyralak

You know, it just occured to me that the name of this thread should be: "Viacom Channel Shakedown Information" :lol:


----------



## Guest

I'm out, been a customer of both satellite services over the past seven years. DTV is offering me a 2 room system free with a 1 year commitment + $49.99 for a Tivo installed. Dish has never offered me anything. My original system was purchased from sears retail. No freebies etc.... At least with DTV they have a retention department that will work with you. They once gave me free HBO/Cinemax for 6 months to prevent me from downgrading.

BTW I am a registered member of this forum, just have not retrieved my username and password from my old setup.


----------



## alew

JohnH said:


> You will find that MTV2, VH1 Classic, Noggin, GAS and MTV Espanol are back in your EPG, but they have the slate up.


John H,
i am new to Dishnetwork, and what timing! What does information you mentioned above mean?
Thanks


----------



## James Long

undefined said:


> Let's see... we lost 10 or 11 channels, so I don't think I'm getting my AT120. Do they have an AT109 package that I missed?


They have over 135 channels in AT120 on a good day. Without Viacom there are eight less, but E* has bumped WAM! down from AT180 to AT60 and AT120, so today your AT120 is 128 channels, plus whatever your RSNs are (and the four alts). This does NOT count the barkers (101, 103, 139, 450, 500, 9900, and more).

AT60 lost 6 Viacoms, gained four replacement channels, and subscribers still get ~72 channels and a dollar back.

JL


----------



## James Long

alew said:


> i am new to Dishnetwork, and what timing! What does information you mentioned above mean?


In the EPG means you can select the channel. Still a slate, but the rumor started that those pulled channels may not return at all.

JL


----------



## Richard King

> I haven't seen anybody from the tv media report anything other than: Dish pulls Viacom channels.


This was posted at ABCNews.com when the battle first started:
Viacom to Pull CBS Off EchoStar Air
http://portfolios.abcnews.go.com/qu...ce=reuters&path=/Reuters/20040309/0105_10.xml
Later in the day the story was "corrected" to:
CORRECTED: EchoStar to Pull Viacom's CBS from Its Service 
http://portfolios.abcnews.go.com/qu...ce=reuters&path=/Reuters/20040309/0239_16.xml
Obviously someone from Viacom applied some pressure.


----------



## jasonjpw

phone: 212 258 6000 
fax: 212 258 6219
Viacom International, Inc.
1515 Broadway
New York, NY 10036-5794
US
--------------------------------
phone: 212 846-3367
fax: 212-654-9068
MTVi Group
1515 Broadway
New York, NY 10036-5794
US
--------------------------------
Phone: 212 258 6749
FAX: 212 258 6219
Viacom International, Inc.
1515 Broadway
New York, NY 10036
--------------------------------
PHONE: 212 767 8727
FAX: 212 582 0285
Viacom International, Inc.
1775 Broadway
New York, NY 10019
US
--------------------------------
212 258-7500


----------



## Guest

I will just post my message sent to Dish Network. (I ordered DirecTv yesterday after finding out the whole story)

*******************************************

Dear Sir,

I was greatly disappointed in the development of the discontinuance of programming through Dish Network that involves viacom. However I feel that Dish Network is at fault. I have been a customer of Dish Network for several years and in that time you have consistantly hiked my rates and changed my programming without my permission. Then when I call to change to a lesser package to fit my budget I'm told I have to pay a $5 nuiciance fee! I think that is horrible! The recent Viacom rate hikes you were facing were far less than the additional so called programming that you have been shoving down our throats! It appears to me that Dish Network has become increasingly greedy and is about to lose many customers over this issue. (Speaking from many rate hikes and forced package upgrades)
Others are smart enough to read and visit viacom's website to hear their side of the story.
Additionally the measly $1 credit you are offering for losing a major part of the programming is a joke! I don't know about anyone else but my bill went up not down! The extra channels you tossed our way are useless to the average adult viewer. It's obvious that they were low budget channels merely given to try to smooth over many angry customers! You might try to make an effort to rectify the situation and offer some more valuable programming until you do.

All this for 6 cents per subscriber! Good Grief!
(see news release below)

signed,
Dissatisfied with Dish Network!
*******************************************
Viacom Press Briefing on EchoStar Pulling our Networks 

March 9, 2004



Remarks by Mark Rosenthal, President and COO, MTV Networks:



For the past few months, as this situation with EchoStar has unfolded, we've been trying to take the high road, speaking just to the larger issues and trying to ignore the gross distortions and inaccuracies that Charlie Ergen and EchoStar have been flinging around. There comes a point, however, where you have to respond, if only to set the record straight. And that’s why we're here today – and we appreciate your taking the time to join us.



As we said in our statement last night, we are disturbed and disappointed by EchoStar's decision to pull the plug on our channels. This is channel yanking by a distributor on an unprecedented scale. This is not something we wanted to happen or would ever want to happen. We are broadcasters and programmers, and the most important relationship we have is with our viewers. The idea that something or someone would disrupt that relationship -- particularly in an effort to extort a better deal for themselves -- is, to us, really reprehensible. And, additionally, as consumer oriented people, it really bothers us to see a company treat its customers with such disregard.



EchoStar has been trying to paint itself as the victim in this situation. To hear them tell it, they were forced to pull the plug on our networks to protect their subscribers from the “exorbitant” rate increases and unfair carriage requirements we were trying to “foist” on them.



In a word, that's ludicrous.



Here are the facts:



First of all, EchoStar is hardly some small mom-and-pop operation that is being pushed around. It has more than 9 million subscribers -- 10% of all multichannel homes and 43% of all satellite households. It is the fourth largest distributor in the U.S. and as a result it has enormous negotiating power.



Faced with the clout that comes with having that massive distribution, we've been doing everything humanly possible we can -- for months now -- to finalize a deal with them. As I said before, the last thing we ever want to do is wind up in a situation where our viewers can't get the channels and shows they love. So in our negotiations with EchoStar, we were extremely flexible and offered substantial compromises.



Now I hope you will keep in mind that every cable and satellite operator negotiates these sorts of agreements, and we have been able to establish and maintain solid business partnerships with virtually all of them. The sole exception is EchoStar/DISH Network.



Along these lines, I would also point out that over the years there have been thousands of successful marketplace negotiations between broadcasters and cable and satellite distributors involving the packaging of retransmission consent rights with cable carriage. In all those cases, only one company ever had a problem with it. That’s right -- it was EchoStar, which complained to the FCC about the same "packaging" practices it challenged in its recent lawsuit against Viacom.



As it happens, the FCC decisively rejected EchoStar's complaint, pointing out that Congress established a detailed regulatory scheme that permits broadcasters to negotiate retransmission consent and cable carriage together. For the same reason, the Federal district court judge who is hearing EchoStar’s case against Viacom recently denied EchoStar's motion for a preliminary injunction and gave us permission to deauthorize (which we did not do) EchoStar's carriage of CBS if we were unable to work things out.



It's also worth noting that EchoStar has a history of bringing frivolous lawsuits and has been sanctioned or admonished by federal judges several times, including in a litigation with CBS when they were found by a Federal judge to have engaged in "clearly willful" copyright violations. Just this week, a federal judge sanctioned EchoStar in yet another an antitrust case they brought.



Anyway, we could not have worked harder to try to make a deal with EchoStar. And back on Jan. 15, we did make a deal with them, and then they reneged.



We don't really understand why. Because despite what they are saying now, the increases we've been asking for are both modest and reasonable -- amounting to less than 6 cents per month per subscriber for all of our services (combined) including CBS and BET. To put that in perspective, I'd point out that EchoStar recently raised its rates to subscribers by as much as three dollars per month. I'd also point out that what we were seeking for all of our multiple channels together -- which include Nickelodeon, the #1 rated cable network -- was substantially less than the $2 a month per subscriber that distributors pay for ESPN alone. In all, Americans spend more than 20% of their TV viewing time watching our networks, yet our fees amount to less than 5% of what EchoStar generates from their average customer.



Those are the facts. And the facts make it clear that EchoStar/DISH Network's decision to pull the plug on our channels shows they care a lot more about lining their own pockets than about what matters to their subscribers. Rather than negotiate in good faith like every other cable and satellite operator, they prefer to peddle insults, distortions, and outright untruths. Which is to say they are not acting in the public interest or in a commercially reasonable manner.



We would still like to reach a deal with EchoStar that would allow its millions of subscribers to continue receiving the Viacom channels and shows they love. But the ball is in EchoStar's court, and unless and until they pick it up, all we can do is inform their unhappy customers, who are calling us by the tens of thousands, about all the excellent alternative TV distribution services available to them with cable and with DirecTV.





Remarks by Marty Franks, EVP, CBS:



I'm afraid March Madness came 10 days early this year. Normally March at CBS is all about buzzer beaters and Cinderella stories.



But in this version of March Madness, time ran out at midnight last night, and despite his protestations about being the "mom and pop" victim in this fight, Charlie Ergen and Echostar are no Cinderella.



First and foremost, CBS sympathizes with our viewers who awakened this morning to find that their local CBS station had been dropped by Dish Network. We hope for their sake we can conclude a new agreement with Echostar quickly.



If not, CBS would like to remind our viewers that we are available, for free, to every viewer with an antenna, but also via DirecTV and their local cable operator.


----------



## normang

Susan... where do your "facts" come from? Since your a guest, I can only assume that your just another troll for Viacom..


----------



## torque91

Hey there Susan in New Hampshire, they got you working late up there at Viacom tonight. Why don't you call it a day and go home.


----------



## FTA Michael

Girard Gibbs & De Bartolomeo Announces Class Action Lawsuit against Dish Network for Enforcing Termination Fee of up to $240 after Dropping CBS and Other Viacom Channels

http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_ge.jsp?news_id=cmt-070b8457&feed=cmt&date=20040310

Eric Gibbs, counsel for plaintiff, (said) "We do not believe that our client, nor any of the members of the class we seek to represent, should have to pay a fee to terminate their subscriptions with Dish, particularly when Dish is not providing the services it initially said it would provide."

The suit's good for California subs.


----------



## Geronimo

The standard residential agreement does cover this. But this iis America. People can file law suits if they want to.


----------



## A11en

The one thing I have not seen brought up is duration, I am going to get a $1.00 credit on my Echostar bill. If the channels are gone for a week, that is like a $4.00 per month credit for the lost services. If you are expecting this to go on for more than a month, then all the *****ing about "Oh, I am getting only $1 for losing 8 channels out of my 40 channels, it should be $10 since those are the only channels I watch", is valid. If, as it seems to me they want to get this resolved as quickly as possible, and you get your channels back in a couple more days, then for those who are paying $90 a month, or $3 per day, the credit of $1 for a loss of service over 4 days is an 8.3% refund. If you are only getting the AT50 package at $30 a month, that becomes a 25% refund.

An aside, I had not even noticed they were gone as I have set up a favorites list and it turns out, none of the affected channels are in it or have been tuned into for probably months in my household. I get CBS from an OTA antenna - locals just became available in my area in the last couple of months and as I have done without them in the six years of being a Dish customer, I had no reason to have added them. Thus the $1 credit for losing channels I never watched anyway is a blessing for me, although I do understand that some other people did watch them and do miss them no that they are gone for the moment.


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## James_F

normang said:


> Since your a guest, I can only assume that your just another troll for Viacom..


Since you are registed here at DBSTalk, you must be a Dish Jerk.


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## Jarrett76

carload said:


> Girard Gibbs & De Bartolomeo Announces Class Action Lawsuit against Dish Network for Enforcing Termination Fee of up to $240 after Dropping CBS and Other Viacom Channels
> 
> http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_ge.jsp?news_id=cmt-070b8457&feed=cmt&date=20040310
> 
> Eric Gibbs, counsel for plaintiff, (said) "We do not believe that our client, nor any of the members of the class we seek to represent, should have to pay a fee to terminate their subscriptions with Dish, particularly when Dish is not providing the services it initially said it would provide."
> 
> The suit's good for California subs.


That dident take long did it? The longer it goes the more lawsuits will pop up.


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## EchoDork

As a former Echostar CSR, I can't tell you how tickled I am about this whole thing. I hope Viacom really drives a wrench up Charlie's ass with this one. This is like sweet poetic justice for the horrible way they treat their employees, and the recent trend of sticking it to new customers by reducing promotions and raising rates. God, I love it. Really puts a crimp in their quest to dupe 10 million customers. 

The $1 compensation? ROFL! I thought someone was kidding at first!! That's exactly what I would have done if I were CEO of a large corporation looking to slap my customers in the face as hard as possible. Let's review Echostar's business operation for the last six months:

1. Introduce the SuperDish, a sprawling piece of junk that some customers need to install to get their locals. It's twice as big as a regular dish, cannot be troubleshot without paying for a service call, and sticks you with another contract to sign and stay with. Let's not pay our retailers properly to install them, prompting a massive labor shortage which leaves customers waiting for MONTHS to get their SuperDishes.

2. Slash DHP and Free Dish benefits. Increase revenue for the company while reducing benefits for the customer. No more free in-home service, longer contracts, new hidden fees.

3. Create a fundamentally unlikable advertising campaign about cable companies raising rates that flunks in test groups across the country. Fail to notice our own employees LAUGHING at us.

4. Raise our rates. But not as much as cable. Well, not for everybody. But you get more channels now. Like... Bingo TV.

5. Yank some of the most popular channels on TV over six cents a customer. Blame Viacom. Hope the customers don't do their homework and believe us.

6. Send our employees into double-mandatory-overtime and keep them there for months. Nothing says "quality customer service" like a supervisor who's in his 8th hour of unpaid overtime.

Soraya's gone, Murdoch owns DirecTV, VOOM is about to eat your entire HDTV market... who's going to save you now, Charlie? So glad I left the company when I did, I can't even imagine what the working conditions must be with 500 calls in queue all day for weeks straight.

I wonder if Viacom's hiring?


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## FTA Michael

EchoDork said:


> As a former Echostar CSR, I can't tell you how tickled I am about this whole thing. I hope Viacom really drives a wrench up Charlie's ass with this one. ... I wonder if Viacom's hiring?


Uh, if you're having trouble getting hired for another CSR gig, I think I might know why.


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## EchoDork

Who said anything about having trouble finding a job? I assure you, I left E* quite voluntarily, in the massive exodus of employees that started last December and is only picking up steam  

Echostar = :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## James_F

Jarrett76 said:


> That dident take long did it? The longer it goes the more lawsuits will pop up.


Not long I'm sure. Nothing is fun unless there is a class action lawsuit. :sure:


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## NoMoRumours

newsub said:


> All I'm saying is this better get solved soon because I contacted my cable company to see what they would offer me to jump ship and they are offering me 2 free YEARS of DIGITAL CABLE and 1 free YEAR of HBO AND SHOWTIME. I emailed them back to see what is all involved in this offer and if it's not too good to be true I'm probably going to take them up on their offer. I mean hell it's two years free service.


I bet the box they require for the digital channels is rented at a nice $30 a month.


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## jasonjpw




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## Goodfella

James_F said:


> Since you are registed here at DBSTalk, you must be a Dish Jerk.


Isn't that the truth. It's above these peoples comprehension that when something "big" happens (I think this is a big deal personally) *new* *GASP* people may be scouring the net for info/places to talk.

The way some people here act like Charles is some kind of hero and we should bend over make me wonder if he doesn't have some shills here.

If your new here, anon, just joined, whatever. You're a troll and a VIACOM employee. RIGGGHHT.  Are all those people calling and jamming the DISH phone canceling their subs VIACAOM people canceling imaginary accounts too? Give me a break.


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## btbrossard

normang said:


> Susan... where do your "facts" come from? Since your a guest, I can only assume that your just another troll for Viacom..


We could rename the thread "Viacom Channel Witch Hunt"  .

You are being a real jerk NORMANG.

/Benjamin


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## James_F

Goodfella said:


> The way some people here act like Charles is some kind of hero and we should bend over make me wonder if he doesn't have some shills here.


What you didn't get the Charlio Poster yet? 
:eek2:


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## James_F

jasonjpw said:


>


If only I could find my "Pig Fade" graphic huh Richard?


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## uncdanwrong

I want my *THE NASHVILLE NETWORK!* Where's my fishing shows, NASCAR races, best of country music news, and the Statler Bros. I'm really mad that E* won't give me that! !pride


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## iwantmyrealworld

I think I am going to die if I miss one more episode of THE REAL WORLD.


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## iwantmyrealworld

Hello does anyone care.........I missed THE REAL WORLD last night.


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## Thump3r

iwantmyrealworld said:


> Hello does anyone care.........I missed THE REAL WORLD last night.


1. Turn off TV
2. Go to your front door.
3. Open said door
4. Proceed outside.
5. *Viola!* Real World


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## ingas33

JohnH said:


> You will find that MTV2, VH1 Classic, Noggin, GAS and MTV Espanol are back in your EPG, but they have the slate up.


HELLO JOHN I Noticed u wrote some stuff on your equipement at the end?DO
you have a C Band system? becuase i also do DSR 920,and 922,HDD200 decoder,pansat 100e FTA ,Norsat C/KU LNB,36" arm,and a old orbitron spinclination mesh 8.5ft.i also still have a old uniden ultra anaglog reciever. C band dead?I hope not :0) I hope dishnet gets viacom channels back i also have a small dish next to my C band dish :0)


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## dswallow

Anyone really desperate could just download their favorite shows off the internet. Much of that stuff is regularly available using BitTorrent from sites like www.suprnova.org or EFNet IRC channel #BT.


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## iwantmyrealworld

dswallow said:


> Anyone really desperate could just download their favorite shows off the internet. Much of that stuff is regularly available using BitTorrent from sites like www.suprnova.org or EFNet IRC channel #BT.


Thank you so much. I did not know you could do that.....I will check it out. I am so annoyed at this. I think Didh could eat the overage for now until they get this resolved. Big ole *$&# cry babies. I would be willing ot bet they made money last year.


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## jasonjpw




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## Foxbat

How appropriate. Cartoon Network is running the episode of "The Family Guy" where the town of Quahog loses their cable after Peter runs his car into the satellite dish, and everyone goes into cable withdrawl...


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## jasonjpw

MTV2, VH1 CLASSIC, NOGGIN, NICKGAS now on guide.
Did something happen?


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## Melishark

jasonjpw said:


> MTV2, VH1 CLASSIC, NOGGIN, NICKGAS now on guide.
> Did something happen?


 They're just teasing us .. HOW RUDE ! :nono2:


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## jasonjpw

NEW UPDATE/ What New Update? Stop Teasing


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## JM Anthony

Lost channels? What lost channels?? I haven't missed anything yet. My two teenage daughters haven't gone for my throat, so everything's AOK on my end. Hang in there, Charlie. My guess is we'll have a deal before the sun goes down on Friday.


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## newsub

JM Anthony said:


> Lost channels? What lost channels?? I haven't missed anything yet. My two teenage daughters haven't gone for my throat, so everything's AOK on my end. Hang in there, Charlie. My guess is we'll have a deal before the sun goes down on Friday.


My cable company said all I need is a copy of my lease agreement in order to get digital cable free for 2 years and hbo/showtime free for a year. That and pay $41/month for their standard cable service. I figure what the hell, I already have cable for basic channels why not pay an extra $25/month and get mtv,espn,etc on every television in the house without a box needed. The installation is FREE and the first digital box is free any box after the first is $7/month. So now the question is where can I find a copy of my lease agreement? Can I email or call dish and have one emailed or faxed to me?
thanks


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## Agent0042

An agreement! They reached an agreement! http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040311/nyth057_1.html


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## Speedracer

Quote from my service agreement;

I confirm that the work listed above has been completed in satisfactory manner on the date shown below, that I agree to and understand the terms and conditions associated with the boxes checked above, that the equipment is in good working order and that I AM RECEIVING THE PROGRAMMING I REQUESTED... End quote
I guess you can wonder where they draw the line? I am definately not getting the programming I requested!!!!!
I have been with dish for three months, I signed up knowing what programs I was getting. WELL ,, I am nt getting some of them now.I can see losing 1 2 or maybe 3,, but come on people 14, 16, or whatever it is, we know it's more than 10!
1$!! Give me a break,, If i am correct each channel I would add is about .30 cents,, If you do the math that would be over $4 in chanells not $1.
That's all I have to complain about, WOW I feel Better lol.



Steve Mehs said:


> Probably not Mitch. I don't have a copy of an Echostar customer agreement, but I'm sure it states in there somewhere, all programming, pricing and packaging is subject to change at any give time. And that's one of the terms you agreed to.


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## nicepants

My Channels Are Back!!!


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## Agent0042

Speedracer - doesn't matter anymore!  P.S.: Yep, all my channels back too. Now they just have to fix the programming guide.


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## Joe Capitano

As of 10:10 pm PT (1:10 am ET) BET popped back on. A quick check shows all the other Viacom cable channels lit once again, including the ones that dropped off the face of the dish.

CBS NY and Denver locals are still running the Chat from Tuesday night.

Could this be the beginning of the end?


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## James_F

According to Charles it is

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/updates/index.shtml

AND YOU GET TO KEEP THE DOLLAR!


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## Agent0042

Check out also the Yahoo link that I posted above for more details about this long-term agreement.


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## James_F

What details? I see none?


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## Agent0042

It says that all of the Viacom channels are restored, as well as the CBS stations. Additionally, it talks about how NickToons is going to be added to Top 180. I'll try again: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040311/nyth057_1.html


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## James_F

No I read it. Details would be how much, how long and why did it have to happen.

The businesswire link is just a feel good press release.


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## Guest

Nicktoons added. Extention of Spike/TV Land/CBS HD. I hope Charlie didn't give in and pay full price.


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## Melishark

James_F said:


> What details? I see none?


 WHOOO HOOOO our channels are back !!!! : 

I just went to the Dish homepage and was surprised to see this ...

** Your CBS and MTV Networks Are Back! Message from Charlie Ergen, CEO of DISH Network **

Dear Loyal DISH Network Customers,

I am very pleased to announce that we've successfully reached a long-term agreement with Viacom to provide you with CBS and MTV Network channels including MTV, Comedy Central, and Nickelodeon. I am happy to say that this agreement will allow us to continue to provide you the lowest all-digital price everyday.

I understand that it has been a difficult 36 hours to be without these popular channels. We appreciate your patience, your support for DISH Network and your continued business.

As promised, you will receive a $1 credit on your next billing statement. In addition, we would like to thank you for all of your support by sending you a free DISH On Demand Pay-Per-View coupon that will allow you to view upcoming hits like "Cat in the Hat" and "School of Rock." The coupon will arrive in your April billing statement. Enjoy a movie on us.

Everyone at DISH Network will continue to fight to provide the best possible programming and services at the lowest possible price, every day.

Thank you for your loyalty and thank you for being a DISH Network customer.

Charlie Ergen
CEO 
DISH Network

----

Roseanne is on in 24 minutes and I could NOT be happier !!! Tomorrow ... SQUIDWARD !!! :grin:

Thank GOD !!!


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## Agent0042

NickToons is only added to Top 180 according to the Yahoo article. Which I think is what they wanted all along.


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## James_F

Why do you care what he pays.

The spin tomorrow will be "win win" for both Viacom and Dish. If that is the case, why did people lose their channels?


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## Guest

James_F said:


> Why do you care what he pays.


I care because it will reflect our rates for the future. The reason I supported this taking off of channels in the first place was because I like Dish and I want them to continue to give me the cheapest rates out there.


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## Mark Holtz

_Because this thead has become a monster (24 pages by my settings, and this point being post 958), I'm closing up this thread and have made the *Dish Network Agreement Reached!!!* the new "master thread".

This has been a very active thread indeed with a lot of viewpoints, and I'm glad that DBSTalk was one of the places where people could express their viewpoints and criticisms on the actions that both side were doing.

As always, we extend the welcome to the guests who have posted, and encourage them to register and be part of DBS Talk community.

Thank you and good night/morning. - *Holtz*_


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