# NO DLB Commitment? This is bad news.



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

From Tibber's Q&A:



tibber said:


> *HR20 Roadmap*
> *Dual Live Buffers*
> Product team understands how important this is to users and are weighing this against other features desired. No definitive commitment yet.


First off, Thank you Tom for getting this information.

This answer is a complete and utter disappointment. This answer tells me all I need to know. Despite the ridiculous amount of responders insisting DLBs are essential in Que's Poll, D* still will not commit to adding the feature.

In other words: For some reason, *THEY DON'T WANT TO ADD THIS FEATURE *and they are waiting for a good reason to convince them to do so.

I'm pretty irked right now. I know there are a bunch of you out there that could care less about DLBs. That's fine, we don't need a bunch of posts in this thread about how much you don't care about DLBs.

Well I for one will consider going back to cable and TIVO if they don't. I'm sure I'm in a minority in that. But if I'm not, NOW is the time for everyone else to chime in with the same sentiment.

If I'm in a minority here, go ahead and let this thread die. 

*BUT if I'm not: * I propose we use the power of the internet to make our voices heard. Perhaps we all cancel service on the same day unless we get some kind of commitment from them on adding the feature. But according to Que's poll, there are a HUGE number of people out there that think DLBs are important. Maybe not as important as canceling their service, but important none the less.

TV isn't the same for me without DLB. That's all there is too it. It's enough to make me switch services. Anyone else agree on this?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

OMG...

Seriously...
They are still considering the feature...

But they can't go an make a semi-major change to the way the unit was designed to work, until they stabalize the unit.

They have a list <---- this ----> long of features they want to add to the unit... but can't... as they have to wait till the box is stable.

They have definently acknowledged the forum's response to wanting DLB's.
They have seen the statements... get DLB and I throw my DTiVo out...

They know... seriously... they know... but it isn't a simple flip the switch, change this line of code... boom your done.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Just curious, do all cable co's and Dish Network's DVRs have them?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> In other words: For some reason, *THEY DON'T WANT TO ADD THIS FEATURE *and they are waiting for a good reason to convince them to do so.


I suspect that there is some underlying software design issue that makes this implementation tough to do now. I do hope that the fact that DLB is the #1 feature request leads them to put a bigger emphasis on it for future products.

That being said, once the kinks are worked out of the current HR20 firmware, I hope that they at least internally commit to trying to make it work. They may not have enough man-power to even think about it right now.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> OMG...
> 
> Seriously...
> They are still considering the feature...
> ...


Then why don't they make some kind of commitment to them? This answer they gave Tom sounds like they are mulling it over, and that if the mood strikes them, they will add it. It could be two years before they add it with an answer like that.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

I agree DLB is critical to my enjoyment, but not over HD. I do want them to know just how important it is to me. Your quote " Maybe not as important as canceling their service, but important nonetheless", describes my position. Especially once baseball starts.

If the logic is let us stabalize this puppy first, i can be patient.


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## slaz55 (Sep 22, 2006)

I don't think your in the minority, I think there are bigger issues for this unit. This is one of my biggest complaints also.


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## wmschultz (Jul 18, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Just curious, do all cable co's and Dish Network's DVRs have them?


Here in STL, Charter doesn't have DLB. My bro thought it was cool when he saw
my HD-Tivo with them.

If I really need it, I just hit record on what I am flipping back and forth between.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

I wouldn't worry too much about the response he got. Marketing is notoroious for not committing to anything. :lol: They do have to play it safe so as to avoid getting bit in the future. I feel fairly sure that in time they will add this, but you cannot make major changes, nor even commit to do so, to something that is unstable and essentially still in beta. Albeit released, but still basically beta stage.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

DLB is not a make or break issue with me. If they get it fine, but I can also live without. Yes, I do have an HR10-250 and DLB rarely comes into play for me, but seriously, if for some reason they decided to disable DLB in TIVO, I wouldn't throw myself under a bus..... It's just TV


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

wmschultz said:


> Here in STL, Charter doesn't have DLB. My bro thought it was cool when he saw
> my HD-Tivo with them.
> 
> If I really need it, I just hit record on what I am flipping back and forth between.


the work around is far from perfect and doesnt work half as well...


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

say-what said:


> DLB is not a make or break issue with me. If they get it fine, but I can also live without. Yes, I do have an HR10-250 and DLB rarely comes into play for me, but seriously, if for some reason they decided to disable DLB in TIVO, I wouldn't throw myself under a bus..... It's just TV


its all just tv, but if we werent passionate about it we would be on a different site...............


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## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

DLB is fine but my preference would be for Picture in Picture PIP. I too vote for stability over anything else at this point now that OTA is out there. Is PIP a deal breaker, not at all. Will it come, doubt it but I think its a similar request to DLB. Less popular but still shouldnt be a leave D* because of it.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

It's not enough to make me dump D*...yet.

It is enough to keep me waiting to invest in an HR20 or buying the HD package.

The lack of DLBs and the instability of the HR20 unit have me in a holding pattern. I wouldn't buy an HR20 (excuse me LEASE one) until both issues were addressed. I can see where they would want to make it work the way it was SUPPOSED to first, THEN make it work the way we WANT IT TO. That makes a certain amount of sense.

So I will continue to stay with SD television and bide my time.

It may be to my benefit in the long run. HD Televsions are only going to keep getting cheaper. My current TV is HD Monitor capable, which is good enough since I need the external box for D* anyway, but with the way things stand right now I guess what I will do is...nothing.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> It's not enough to make me dump D*...yet.
> 
> It is enough to keep me waiting to invest in an HR20 or buying the HD package.
> 
> ...


your position makes alot of sense....but watching the game last night in HD was amazing; once you make the move you cant enjoy sd tv anymore.


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## Mike770 (Mar 1, 2004)

say-what said:


> ..... It's just TV


Well said!!!!


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## slaz55 (Sep 22, 2006)

It's over $1000 worth of TV a year. This is D* Future of HD as they call it at CES and they're still beta testing it.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Mike770 said:


> Well said!!!!


really mike770? and 1994 was just a hockey season? :lol:


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## Mike770 (Mar 1, 2004)

jheda said:


> really mike770? and 1994 was just a hockey season? :lol:


It was the best hockey season of my life!!!!


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

No doubt, DLB is a great feature.

To suggest, as the poll does that it's an all or nothing, dump D* choice, made me chuckle.

Shirley, you've got to be kidding.

Considering everything the HR20 does do (and for me very well), they could tell me they are never going DLB and it would be met with a shrug. Further, while I like the idea of DLB, I do not assign it any importance whatever IN CONTEXT with other current issues. 

There is a priority of "wish list" items. Where does DLB come in? 

Then there's the larger issue of having what is already there work right. Until this box is much more stable (for those having big issues), I would hope that D* doesn't do ANYTHING with DLB, or any other "new" features. It makes no sense. 

The latest poll shows that 80% of over 200 respondents will keep their HR20s and are having few problems. That leaves 20% with real, perhaps even major issues. Until those are addressed (as they could rear their ugly head for any of us at any time), DLB should be well down the list of things consuming the programming team's resources.

I love it when a poll is done with an obvious agenda and the responses don't support the apparent agenda.


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## solo1026 (Mar 21, 2006)

DLB is very important to me too, but so is getting all the other bugs fix too.
So I'm willing to wait a while and see what Dave will fix


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wow. I actually took that statement as a positive. So far on dual buffers we have just had Earl say they are looking at it but nothing official (no offense Earl). Now here we have someone in official capacity actually acknowledge that this is a feature that users want and they are looking at it. This is the first official statement about dual buffers.

I don't know how you can't take that as a positive.

------------------------------------------------------

Personally most know I could care less about dual buffers. Sure it would be nice but it's by no means the "killer" app of the box. Same will hold true for the unwashed masses that are signing up for HD that have never had a DVR before, they won't know any better. And the amount of people that would seriously dump DirecTV simply because of no dual buffers is...well....very small. Even if it were a couple thousand, that's a days worth of new subs.

Once they get it stable I would say that dual buffers has a good chance *IF* it doesn't require rewriting tons of critical underlying code to do it (which could make it unstable again) or doesn't delay critical new features (in their eyes) for them like VOD and expansion of network connectivity. That wouldn't be worth it for a small number of people that would jump ship. 

All in all I hope they add dual buffers someday, but not at the expense of stability or other features.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

I use DLB mostly with football. With the stats tracker for my fantasy team, I didn't need the DLBs as much as I did in the past. Not a dealbreaker for me anymore.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Mike770 said:



> It was the best hockey season of my life!!!!


so it was more then just a hockey game for us wasnt it? Mess is more than a player right? thats the same passion /interest we have in DLB... you dont have to agree, just empathize.

thanks and mess is the mesiah


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

hasan said:


> No doubt, DLB is a great feature.
> 
> To suggest, as the poll does that it's an all or nothing, dump D* choice, made me chuckle.
> 
> ...


hasan, i would NOT dump my hr20 if DLB doesnt become a feature, although it is a very important feature to me. However, assuming the pollers to be honest, and a fair sample, 20% of subscribers leaving clearly DOES support his agenda. .


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## jclark (Oct 4, 2006)

If I ever left D*, I don't think that it would be over one single thing. It would have to be a number of things that caused me frustration.


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## rhduggan (Jan 9, 2007)

I'm certainly sorry to hear of the lack of DLBs in the HR20. I just committed late last week to give up my DirecTiVo for the HR20. It seems like the best option at this point, but I use DLB a lot and will certainly miss that. Seems like something the engineers would have designed in from the start.

This is my first post, BTW. Hi all.

R


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## joejhawk (Oct 3, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Just curious, do all cable co's and Dish Network's DVRs have them?


Brighthouse in Central Florida has it so you can even do PIP with the 2 tuners. I REALLY liked that and miss it on my HR20.

As far as this thread goes, while I may not dump D* because of it, my enjoyment of the system is greatly diminished. If I have a choice between stability and DLB (which evidently can't be done simultaneously) I would obviously choose stability.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Sorry Jay. I know it's important to you. But for me it's not worth leaving. They lose ST, that would different.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

rhduggan said:


> I'm certainly sorry to hear of the lack of DLBs in the HR20. I just committed late last week to give up my DirecTiVo for the HR20. It seems like the best option at this point, but I use DLB a lot and will certainly miss that. Seems like something the engineers would have designed in from the start.
> 
> This is my first post, BTW. Hi all.
> 
> R


Welcome!!!!


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Sorry Jay. I know it's important to you. But for me it's not worth leaving. They lose ST, that would different.


ST?


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## Mike770 (Mar 1, 2004)

jheda said:


> so it was more then just a hockey game for us wasnt it? Mess is more than a player right? thats the same passion /interest we have in DLB... you dont have to agree, just empathize.
> 
> thanks and mess is the mesiah


Understood.... and I do empathize.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

rhduggan said:


> I'm certainly sorry to hear of the lack of DLBs in the HR20. I just committed late last week to give up my DirecTiVo for the HR20. It seems like the best option at this point, but I use DLB a lot and will certainly miss that. Seems like something the engineers would have designed in from the start.
> 
> This is my first post, BTW. Hi all.
> 
> R


Welcome!


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## Just J (Oct 11, 2006)

DLB is my number one missing feature. But *by itself*, the lack of DLB is not a deal breaker. Factoring in things like my other choices (limited), my experience with the box (mostly positive and getting better), my experience with D* (very good, on average), that one thing is not nearly enough to chase me away.

And as for the note from the OP, after 20+ years in the automation software business, I understand why they won't make a public commitment, even if internally they recognize its importance and fully intend to implement it.

First, of course, is the need not to commit to something until you are sure you can deliver it. The most trivial seeming things (like DLB on a box that's already capable of recording two shows simultaneously while you alternate playback between them) can turn out to be damned hard due to quirks in the existing architecture and code, especially in an interactive, real-time environment where there are response time minimums that must be met (no one wants HR20 playback to look like YouTube over a phone line!)

Second is the question of timing - as soon as they commit to it, people start to scream for a date, and even without a date they claim it's late. Look at OTA on this box - promised in late 2006, delivered in (very ) late 2006, but you'd have thought D* missed their delivery commitment by years and shot everyone's dog besides.

Still, and unlike some others, I appreciate every thread on this topic that serves to keep our collective desire for DLB in front of the folks that need to care.

I want this grease, too, so squeak away, fellow wheel! :lol:


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## wmschultz (Jul 18, 2006)

jheda said:


> ST?


NFL Sunday Ticket.


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## ajwillys (Jun 14, 2006)

I didn't come to Directv until recently and I never had a DirecTiVo but I did have several regular TiVo's and was even an active beta tester for a few TiVo products and I can wholeheartedly say that I have never used Dual Live Buffers! For me, the number one, ultimate, so cool feature is the ability to transfer shows from one DVR to another. 

Adding the ability to have a unified scheduling list/prioritizer that would automatically split/redirect the shows so that nothing gets missed would be icing on the cake.

Other than that, I'm still amazed that I can pause/rewind live TV! :hurah:


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> Marketing is notoroious for not committing to anything. :lol:


Actually, D*'s marketing department is notorious for saying things that engineering has yet to accomplish. None as of late, but they had some doozies a few years a go.

DLB would be nice. They are great for watching football and with the NASCAR HotPass starting next month I will make good use of them on my HR10's.

However, I would rather D* make the HR20 bulletproof before adding DLB's.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

The WishList survey top five results for the past week are running:

#1 Provide accurate repeat/first run & HD info so the right shows can be recorded p. 47 

#2 GUIDE button "displays the Guide" first and Channel Categories second per p. iv. & 4 

#3 Picture in Picture - ability to have both tuners display on the screen at the same time 

#4 Dual Live Buffers 

#5 "Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package" p. 33 

So while this survey shows that so far DLB is not a deal-breaker for the most, it is a top five request. Three of the top five are to fix problems that prevent the HR20 from doing what the manual says. Once it can do what has already been promised those results will certainly change.

- Craig


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

There is no doubt I have an agenda. I want D* to give us a commitment on DLBs. I am not saying I want them tomorrow. I just want them to commit to adding them. It's a sorely wanted feature, and for them to simply consider it is out of touch with their user community. 

I am actually quite surprised that nearly 20% of responders agree with me on this. I more or less expected it to be more along the lines of 5% if that. I'm kind of encouraged by 20%. 

To understand me better here: If D* were to commit to adding this feature, they would buy all kinds of patience from me. But I know for a fact that ultimately, if I don't have DLB, I will find a solution that does. For instance, if they came out and said, "OK we will take a serious look at this issue in Spring '07" or something to that effect, then I would have all the patience in the world (until Spring). I am not asking for a miracle, I am asking for them to take the step toward committing to us. (God - I do in fact sound like a whining woman, "WHY CANT YOU JUST COMMIT???" -sorry)

But seriously - if they can't do this, then I feel like I am wasting my time helping them with feedback, when ultimately I will jump ship for a product that does what I want. 

For me, all the extras on this box are needless. They are fun to play with, but I really don't care if my TV box plays music, or my photo albums. I don't care about Video on Demand, I already use my DVR like a VOD service in a way. DLBs should be a top priority in my opinion, and I am surprised and encouraged to see that I am not alone. (Even if we are still in the minority, at least its a significant minority.)

Yes, to summarize and make clear: My agenda ultimately is to get D* to commit to adding this feature for the 20% of the die hard HR20 users out here that will leave if they don't get it. 

Finally - This is not some kind of angry thumb nosing on my part. This is my honest consumer reaction. I would regret leaving D* because the service itself is great. But I have the expectation now, and I don't want to do without it.

So if there are lurkers out there who agree - now is the time to send your message to D*. Vote!


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> There is no doubt I have an agenda. I want D* to give us a commitment on DLBs. I am not saying I want them tomorrow. I just want them to commit to adding them. It's a sorely wanted feature, and for them to simply consider it is out of touch with their user community.
> 
> I am actually quite surprised that nearly 20% of responders agree with me on this. I more or less expected it to be more along the lines of 5% if that. I'm kind of encouraged by 20%.
> 
> ...


dude, you ARE the jim leyland of dual buffers!


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Since I probably use DLB once every 6 months on my TiVos can't say it is a deal breaker for me.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

jheda said:


> dude, you ARE the jim leyland of dual buffers!


Mentioning me in the same sentence with Leyland is sacrilegious. He is the savior of Detroit!! (Actually - Dombrowski is for getting him here, but who's counting).


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Don't forget Jay, that Spring-07 = Q1-08 in D* years.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> Don't forget Jay, that Spring-07 = Q1-08 in D* years.


You are such an instigator. True- and for me, just knowing they are working on it is half the battle.

My concern is the "we're thinking about it" attitude. Because that equates to much longer than Q1-08.


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## jcurrier31 (Dec 15, 2006)

Is it possible that no other (to the best of my knowledge) product besides Tivo supports Dual live buffers. Don't get me wrong, I would really love to have it again, but maybe there are some legal issue's that they are trying to work trough. Tivo has already sue'd E* and they have an agreement with D* so D* won't get sue'd for DVR patent issues. Is it possible that adding DLB would break the agreement? Just a thought.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Well, at least it isn't off the table altogether. That's a plus that they aren't just arbitrarily dismissing it.

Once upon a time Earl insinuated that the abesnce of DLB was a conscious decision at D* and that there were even reasons supporting it...some of which had been shared with him, apparently in confidence.

Knowing he knows something I don't know bugs the bejesus out of me...you know?


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

jcurrier31 said:


> Is it possible that no other (to the best of my knowledge) product besides Tivo supports Dual live buffers. Don't get me wrong, I would really love to have it again, but maybe there are some legal issue's that they are trying to work trough. Tivo has already sue'd E* and they have an agreement with D* so D* won't get sue'd for DVR patent issues. Is it possible that adding DLB would break the agreement? Just a thought.


As far as I know, Dish and most cable boxes using the motorola 64xx have DLB's.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

I guess I didn't read it like that. The point of the poll (and other posts) was that this was just the most terrible thing (not having DLB), and let's start a user rebellion, (again in other posts), let's threaten, let's stomp our feet.

The poll is done, with a ridiculous choice (DLB or Dump D*), and 75% or more say, NO WAY. So, I don't see the poll supporting the radical response to not having DLB (so far). As more people respond (if they bother to with such a silly choice), I would expect the margin to grow close to 90%.

I guess one could come to the tortured conclusion that if 10% of the respondents would dump D* because of DLB then it is really a big deal...but ya know what...talk is cheap. Of that 10% how many really would...*When push comes to shove, I see a LOT of talking and not much WALKING.*

The other poll (how important is DLB) was overwhelming in saying we want it (and I want it too)....but when you add in this poll giving a false choice between DLB and Dumping D*, things settle out a lot differently...it obviously isn't important enough to cause people to dump D*....and that was my point. The OP was trying to rally support behind DLB. He set up a poll with only two choices, and the responses indicate that while DLB may be important, it wasn't important enough to Dump D* over it. I doubt (based on his trying to encourage others to beat the drum) this was the outcome he was looking for. That's why I made my comment about setting up a poll and then having it basically blow up in your face...or do you somehow think he wanted the poll to say that 75% or more of the people wouldn't put that kind of pressure on D*? Add in the artificial inflation of the topic (a lot of those not even remotely aware of or interested in DLB won't bother to respond), and it looks even worse.)

While my post was an inference, to be sure, I don't think it was wild.

Perhaps a clearer indication of actual users' preferences would come about with more than two choices...and even then, the choices have to reasonable. Example:

How High A Priority Should DLB Be:

Very Important: do this before stability issues are largely addressed, get on it right away.

Somewhat Important: do it as soon as possible after stability issues are largely ...

Important But Not That much: Do stability and other existing issues (not new design issues) first.

Somewhat Unimportant: Do most everything else first (stability, new features, improved GUI, etc)

Not Important: I don't care if you ever do it.

This, while not perfect, gets things headed in the right direction. No false choices, a spectrum of priorities from "nothing is more important to me" to "nothing could bore me more"...and some things in between. I don't like polls that essentially say:

"Would you make the choice I would or shoot yourself in the foot?"

If someone really wants to know how important/priority this is, then we would need a poll more "discriminating" than go/no-go with D*. Perhaps someone from the "DLB is Important camp" could construct such a poll.

It's not easy to do polls. I did one, and it certainly had its flaws (but wasn't biased, and certainly had no agenda). It was about satisfaction. Then recently, we had another poll, also getting at the relative satisfaction domain....it turned out to have nearly EXACTLY the same % of people who had few problems with their HR20s (or are at least somewhat satisfied), but not nearly the number of respondents (200 vs 325). (the latter poll had far fewer respondents)

That's 3 polls that have some bearing on relative satisfaction, or lack thereof. (although this poll is a one-issue poll and probably should be discarded as being meaningfully reflective of user satisfaction) Each had/have their flaws. All, interestingly enough, show that people see enough in the HR20 to keep it, if not be relatively happy with it.

All of this doesn't mean the HR20 doesn't need some things fixed, and that other features don't need development. It does mean that the vast majority are not about to shoot themselves over how things are currently being done in the short run.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

hasan said:


> I guess one could come to the tortured conclusion that if 10% of the respondents would dump D* because of DLB then it is really a big deal...but ya know what...talk is cheap. Of that 10% how many really would...*When push comes to shove, I see a LOT of talking and not much WALKING.*


In theory, this poll should actually have zero people wanting to dump DirecTV over DLB. ... Just saying ...


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## kaminsco (Nov 27, 2006)

Quick question and little off topic but, I am not trying to be a impolite. You say Directv since 1993.

Directv was not founded until 1994 and back then it service was the through Directv and USSB (premier channels). 

How did you have Directv in 1993?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

kaminsco said:


> Quick question and little off topic but, I am not trying to be a impolite. You say Directv since 1993.
> 
> Directv was not founded until 1994 and back then it service was the through Directv and USSB (premier channels).
> 
> How did you have Directv in 1993?


By being off on my guess by 1 year? I got one of the first ones...damn expensive...999 bucks!


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

brott said:


> In theory, this poll should actually have zero people wanting to dump DirecTV over DLB. ... Just saying ...


Yep, between the cup and lip, there is many a slip. The rest is marketing.

(This is especially true over a feature that was NEVER promised...it was dreamt up by the users (and I agree with that dream)), just not some of their zealousness. I mean, really, you would think this were OTA or sumpin' 

Just joking folks, don't take me seriously. I'm betting and hoping, if it can be done, they will do it.....in time.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

You know, I would sure love DLB's but it's not forcing me to drop D*. I'm with those who say that the basic stability issues need to be addressed before adding functionality. I would have preferred more time spent on the central purpose of a DVR before sharing music and pictures, for example. 

However, what I've heard is that D* has gone from saying that DLB is a non-issue, to saying that it's not in the cards, and now we are told that it is, at least, on the table. If the person who said that is to be believed, it's a validation of what we're doing here. 

I think it's great that we are affecting their opinions over there, and that they're rewarding us by letting us try the new releases before they go national. 

We've all got the features that we care about and those we could easily toss, and all we have to do is communicate them to the developers. It would seem they're listening.


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## RobertSeattle (Aug 27, 2006)

There is not a day that goes by where I miss DLB - how out of touch was D* to think this wasn't a critical feature? I actually could care less about the 90 minute buffer - 60 would be sufficent - but I can live with 30. But give DLB!!!


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

You bet! And the more reasonable our conduct and our "requirements" (I try to avoid the word 'demand'), the more credence our desires will be given. It's easy to dismiss the screamers and threateners. It is not so easy to dismiss a largely pleased (but hopeful and determined) user base.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

hasan said:


> By being off on my guess by 1 year? I got one of the first ones...damn expensive...999 bucks!


If someone could confirm D*'s startup date (service), I'll change my signature...I wouldn't want to deliberately mislead anyone.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

hasan said:


> The other poll (how important is DLB) was overwhelming in saying we want it (and I want it too)....but when you add in this poll giving a false choice between DLB and Dumping D*, things settle out a lot differently...it obviously isn't important enough to cause people to dump D*....and that was my point. The OP was trying to rally support behind DLB. He set up a poll with only two choices, and the responses indicate that while DLB may be important, it wasn't important enough to Dump D* over it. I doubt (based on his trying to encourage others to beat the drum) this was the outcome he was looking for. That's why I made my comment about setting up a poll and then having it basically blow up in your face...or do you somehow think he wanted the poll to say that 75% or more of the people wouldn't put that kind of pressure on D*? Add in the artificial inflation of the topic (a lot of those not even remotely aware of or interested in DLB won't bother to respond), and it looks even worse.)


As the OP, let me make myself clear.

I have an agenda with this poll.

- It is not trying to force anyone to do anything, it is merely trying to point something out to the folks at D*. I.E. This feature is important enough, that ultimately, nearly 20% of the responders in this forum are willing to dump D* to get the feature. There is no false agenda here. It's just plain and simple.

- Secondly, I would like to know how many people share my feelings. That feeling being I will dump D* if I can't have a HD box that gets all the channels, and DLBs.

- I expected there to be few people who felt as strongly as I do, but since I miscalculated about that, and nearly 20% agree (at this point anyway) that makes our voice stronger - AND THAT IS THE ULTIMATE POINT.

All that being said, I can say that it would be nice at this point to hear something more concrete through official channels about DLBs.

I can also rally the troops and suggest that we throw in the towel at a pre-specified date, and dump our HR20s. (with or without D* cooperation.)

If you don't like my poll, don't vote and don't bother with this thread. There is nothing flawed about asking people if they are willing to walk away from D* over a missing feature.

It's no different than asking someone if they would turn in their Leased Car because the MP3 connectivety they thought should be part of the sound system isn't there. It's not a slam on D*. It's a consumer standpoint.

I want DLB. 
I prefer D* 
I want HD.
I want DVR.

Simple logic. Assuming you can't have all of the above, which of those items above can be eliminated logically, while fulfilling my consumer desire to the highest degree?

It's not personal - Don't make it out to be. It's consumer demand.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

hasan said:


> If someone could confirm D*'s startup date (service), I'll change my signature...I wouldn't want to deliberately mislead anyone.


Wikipedia
In 1994, the USSB and DirecTV programming services were launched. Digital Equipment Corporation provided the customer-care out of their existing technical support center in Colorado Springs, Colorado.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

I would vote in the poll if it said that lack of DLB would be a strong factor in dumping D*. I wouldn't dump anything over just one issue (unless the issue harmed me in some way). However, it would be at the top of a list of issues that would make me go away.

I would be happiest if D* said they WILL do DLB but after they get the box more stable (don't even have to have a date, just an "exit" strategy).

This is what I think they do wrong. They don't want to set many expectations with dates so they just talk nebulously. Why not just put things into a relative timeline when they talk improvements and they would make most of the more ardent users (like those here and at avsforums and tivocommunity, etc.) much more relaxed. I guess they prefer a worked-up-not-so-happy customer base.


----------



## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

hasan said:


> Perhaps a clearer indication of actual users' preferences would come about with more than two choices...and even then, the choices have to reasonable. Example:
> 
> How High A Priority Should DLB Be:
> 
> ...


----------



## swartzentruber (Nov 27, 2006)

RobertSeattle said:


> There is not a day that goes by where I miss DLB - how out of touch was D* to think this wasn't a critical feature? I actually could care less about the 90 minute buffer - 60 would be sufficent - but I can live with 30. But give DLB!!!


I wouldn't dump DirecTv over DLBs, but it's definitely a critical feature. I recently ran into a situation where I'd have loved DLB. The nice thing about DLB is not just being able to switch between two buffers, but simply having the two buffers. I was recording the Eagles playoff game, and even though I extended my recording for an extra 1.5 hrs, my DVR decided to stop recording after 3hrs, 10 minutes. I was close to the end, so with DLBs, no problem, but I'd been recording something else, so the buffer was on another channel, and I ended up missing about 10 minutes of the game  . DLBs are great for situation where you might forget to extend a sporting event -- with only one buffer, you stand a good chance of missing the event (although in this case I did extend it, it just decided not to listen).


----------



## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Live buffer means zilch to me now that the NFL regular season is done. I don't buffer TV shows, I record them. I buffer live Sporting events because those run 3 hours or more. DLB is not something I would leave D* over, but lack of it _could_ cause me to cancel NFL ST.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

jheda said:


> hasan said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps a clearer indication of actual users' preferences would come about with more than two choices...and even then, the choices have to reasonable. Example:
> ...


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

brott said:


> Wikipedia
> In 1994, the USSB and DirecTV programming services were launched. Digital Equipment Corporation provided the customer-care out of their existing technical support center in Colorado Springs, Colorado.


Thankyou, and done!


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Wow. I actually took that statement as a positive. So far on dual buffers we have just had Earl say they are looking at it but nothing official (no offense Earl). Now here we have someone in official capacity actually acknowledge that this is a feature that users want and they are looking at it. This is the first official statement about dual buffers.
> 
> I don't know how you can't take that as a positive.


Bonscott87, you are very right!

Everyone, please remember D* is a publicly traded company. If you've ever worked in a public position at a traded company, you've likely received notices or instructions that you can't say anything or it could open up the company for lawsuits, cause shares to move, etc. So for them to even say what they did was very helpful. We had to walk very fine lines and I appreciated they wanted to say more--but absolutely can not.

I know "they", being the real live people I met, do care very much about the users--the big reason they read these forums is to get feedback straight from customers that many programmers never, ever see in many companies. If, D* does not implement DLB, it will have to be for a very compelling reason.

Can we give D* a breather for a few days, while they work very, very hard on stability? It was very clear that was extremely important to them. D* wants to create the very best DVR experience for the users, bar none.

[disclaimers] I don't work for D*, dbstalk.com, or anyone for that matter right now. I am not now, nor have i ever been an employee of either company for that matter. Not that I wouldn't mind talking about something in the future...

These thoughts are mine. You are very welcome to share them, modify them, or dispute them, but I'm sticking to them until I am given to new thoughts. 

I'm not a lawyer, nor a journalist. Geek, you betcha.  Investor, manager, and corporate director in the past. So in other words, i make mistakes .
[/disclaimers]

Have fun all, its much more pleasant than any other choices,
Tom


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

HolmesCo said:


> Marketing is notoroious for not committing to anything. :lol:


In the recent past, DirecTV marketing has shown no reserve in promising things that the rest of the company isn't ready for. They've been over-promising on HD content for over two years now and the one-time self-proclaimed "HD Leader" still offers only a token number of HD nationals. If you believe that they will be carrying 100 HD channels nationally by this time next year, I've got a deal on a bridge that you won't be able to pass up.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

hasan said:


> jheda said:
> 
> 
> > I agree completely!...and would like DLB myself. I'm just not a big fan of ultimatums over such a narrow issue. I could understand an ultimatum (with timeline) if the basic/central features of the HR20 were not met. (and for some they are not)
> ...


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

tibber said:


> Bonscott87, you are very right!
> 
> Everyone, please remember D* is a publicly traded company. If you've ever worked in a public position at a traded company, you've likely received notices or instructions that you can't say anything or it could open up the company for lawsuits, cause shares to move, etc. So for them to even say what they did was very helpful. We had to walk very fine lines and I appreciated they wanted to say more--but absolutely can not.
> 
> ...


Once again Tom thanks for all you are doing at CES. I have no doubt that the people you are talking to at CES from D* are great people who want to give customers EXACTLY what they want. I am REALLY glad we got some kind of response from them on this issue. YES. It is positive that they are admitting to being WELL AWARE of the user demand. But their answer does not leave us with any more knowledge than we started with. For all we know it is impossible (technically) to add DLBs to this box, and they just don't want to admit it right now.

My experience with corporations has been that no matter how many employees want to do it, Corporate Policy stands in the way. Corporate policy is made by the few, and enforced by the many (good, smart people who want to keep their jobs).

I really don't know how announcing the intention to add a feature like DLB to their HR20 could hurt D*'s share price. Then again, I'm not a finance guy.

Someone, Somewhere in the company has the authority, and ability to give us detailed information about the status, and their current intentions regarding adding DLB to this box.

I've said before, this thread isn't about bashing D*. They are going to do what they think is right/best for their company. It is about educating them on how passionately the 20 percent group feels about this issue. AND it's about trying to convince them to give us more information. Before we finally conclude that DLBs aren't going to happen anytime soon. (Like 6 months or so)


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

JayW,

Thanks. I'm very happy to be giving back to the dbstalk community. This has been a ton of fun to do for us all.

If I could read faces and minds, my guess would be that there are people who know some of the details and some who have the authority. Alas, I'm very doubtful that there is one person who has both knowledge and authority. After the HR20 is stable, the two groups will get together and decisions will be made.

What is encouraging, at least to me, is the acknowledgment of us as valued customers. That was a good feeling, to hear directly from several people (I think I talked to 8 or so people over two days who were real people, not counting the booth helpers). Since no all of you had this opportunity to experience this directly, I hope Richard, Michael, and I can give you a glimpse.

So many times I've dealt with companies and felt undervalued as a customer. At least the people I talked to from Directv made me feel that all of us are valued customers. Companies that have major internal problems often do not, at any level, make the customers feel valued, so I take this as a good overall sign.

Will we get DLB? I sure hope so. But it might be a major shift internally and that might take some time to architect and implement.

Anyway, cheers,
Tom


----------



## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> hasan said:
> 
> 
> > This issue is narrow to you. To others it is a major issue. After using DLBs DAILY on my TIVO for years, watching without them is a MAJOR (and uncomfortable) adjustment.
> ...


----------



## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

brott said:


> Wikipedia
> In 1994, the USSB and DirecTV programming services were launched. Digital Equipment Corporation provided the customer-care out of their existing technical support center in Colorado Springs, Colorado.


I'll add my thanks to Hasan's (even though I came to this thread late). I also thought D* started in 1993 (the year after we moved into our house), but time has a way of messing with your head.

Anywy, that means I've been with D* since '94 also and so updated my signature.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

jheda said:


> jaywdetroit said:
> 
> 
> > Jay no biggie, but if you go back to the post (hasan 6:59pm) youll see you are actually responding to hasan's quote but in your response its labeled it mine. I know you meant no malice aforethought, and its not a bad quote being attributed to me. Just setting the record straight. My feelings again are DLB is *very *important to me, but stability first and then we can lobby. But i respect your passion 100%,,,
> ...


----------



## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

bidger said:


> Live buffer means zilch to me now that the NFL regular season is done. I don't buffer TV shows, I record them. I buffer live Sporting events because those run 3 hours or more. DLB is not something I would leave D* over, but lack of it _could_ cause me to cancel NFL ST.


I use it all the time for NHL games and ESPN basketball games.

Ah, the joy of pause, flip tuners, watch, pause, flip back.


----------



## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> jheda said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't catch that Jheda. I don't know why that happened. Sorry! (Not about the Kenny Rogers thing, the quote thing.)
> ...


----------



## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

I think some of the issues the DLB crowd have is that D* has been announcing other features they are going to add to this box (ViiV streaming, etc.), yet there are still issues with stability and there has not been any committal to DLB's. I guess my thought is that of all the features they could add to this box, why is ViiV streaming at the top of that 'list' and why is DLB's not even on that 'list' let alone near the top. If they want this box to compete with other provider's, they should offer, AT A MINIMUM, the features that have been available to DVR users for years. I can stream items from my computer to my TV via my Xbox 360 now, and most likely my PS3 in the near future. I hold out no hope that I would be able use DLB's on either of those systems.

I sympathize with Jay and I'm beginning to feel like D* has no intention of ever implementing this feature, which sadly is causing me to begin looking into other media providers in the likely event that D* doesn't feel this feature is required. I don't in anyway want to cancel my service with D* because I enjoy it immensely, but I do feel like they have completely missed the boat on this issue and I'm being punished as a result. I'm beginning to tire of constantly having to explain to the little lady why you can't just hit the 'Live TV' button and move over to the other tuner and saying, 'Yes, I think D* will be adding this feature', especially when I'm beginning to think they never have the intention of doing so. I have been getting questioned about FiOS TV from her and if they have DLB's. At this point I feel that I must start to investigate whether that is the case.

So, yes, if D* doesn't implement this feature I will cancel my service. It may not mean much to them, but if I'm spending $150/month then I want to actually enjoy that service to the fullest. That is just not possible without DLB.


----------



## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> I think some of the issues the DLB crowd have is that D* has been announcing other features they are going to add to this box (ViiV streaming, etc.), yet there are still issues with stability and there has not been any committal to DLB's. I guess my thought is that of all the features they could add to this box, why is ViiV streaming at the top of that 'list' and why is DLB's not even on that 'list' let alone near the top. If they want this box to compete with other provider's, they should offer, AT A MINIMUM, the features that have been available to DVR users for years. I can stream items from my computer to my TV via my Xbox 360 now, and most likely my PS3 in the near future. I hold out no hope that I would be able use DLB's on either of those systems.
> 
> I sympathize with Jay and I'm beginning to feel like D* has no intention of ever implementing this feature, which sadly is causing me to begin looking into other media providers in the likely event that D* doesn't feel this feature is required. I don't in anyway want to cancel my service with D* because I enjoy it immensely, but I do feel like they have completely missed the boat on this issue and I'm being punished as a result. I'm beginning to tire of constantly having to explain to the little lady why you can't just hit the 'Live TV' button and move over to the other tuner and saying, 'Yes, I think D* will be adding this feature', especially when I'm beginning to think they never have the intention of doing so. I have been getting questioned about FiOS TV from her and if they have DLB's. At this point I feel that I must start to investigate whether that is the case.
> 
> So, yes, if D* doesn't implement this feature I will cancel my service. It may not mean much to them, but if I'm spending $150/month then I want to actually enjoy that service to the fullest. That is just not possible without DLB.


Good points....whats FIOS?

_______

can crosby sit tonight and give the panthers a chance:lol:


----------



## chrisfowler99 (Aug 23, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> I think some of the issues the DLB crowd have is that D* has been announcing other features they are going to add to this box (ViiV streaming, etc.), yet there are still issues with stability and there has not been any committal to DLB's. I guess my thought is that of all the features they could add to this box, why is ViiV streaming at the top of that 'list' and why is DLB's not even on that 'list' let alone near the top. If they want this box to compete with other provider's, they should offer, AT A MINIMUM, the features that have been available to DVR users for years. I can stream items from my computer to my TV via my Xbox 360 now, and most likely my PS3 in the near future. I hold out no hope that I would be able use DLB's on either of those systems.
> 
> I sympathize with Jay and I'm beginning to feel like D* has no intention of ever implementing this feature, which sadly is causing me to begin looking into other media providers in the likely event that D* doesn't feel this feature is required. I don't in anyway want to cancel my service with D* because I enjoy it immensely, but I do feel like they have completely missed the boat on this issue and I'm being punished as a result. I'm beginning to tire of constantly having to explain to the little lady why you can't just hit the 'Live TV' button and move over to the other tuner and saying, 'Yes, I think D* will be adding this feature', especially when I'm beginning to think they never have the intention of doing so. I have been getting questioned about FiOS TV from her and if they have DLB's. At this point I feel that I must start to investigate whether that is the case.
> 
> So, yes, if D* doesn't implement this feature I will cancel my service. It may not mean much to them, but if I'm spending $150/month then I want to actually enjoy that service to the fullest. That is just not possible without DLB.


I would imagine it's because ViiV was already in the plan and already had a team working on it.

DLB will likely require a new team, and that team is likely still too busy working on getting the boxed fixed to be able to take the time to do a complete evaluation as to whether or not DLB is even possible.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

jheda said:


> Good points....whats FIOS?
> 
> _______
> 
> can crosby sit tonight and give the panthers a chance:lol:


jheda - http://www.verizonfios.com/

Its Fiber to the home.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

jheda said:


> Good points....whats FIOS?
> 
> _______
> 
> can crosby sit tonight and give the panthers a chance:lol:


FiOS TV is a service offered by Verizon over Fiber Optic cable. We have FiOS broadband right now and FiOS TV is just beginning to offer service in our area.

And NO, Crosby can't sit. :nono: How quickly you forget!! The last time they played the Panthers won! Maybe you can get rid of Gary Roberts for us??? We can't seem to move him from in front of the net.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> FiOS TV is a service offered by Verizon over Fiber Optic cable. We have FiOS broadband right now and FiOS TV is just beginning to offer service in our area.
> 
> And NO, Crosby can't sit. :nono: How quickly you forget!! The last time they played the Panthers won! Maybe you can get rid of Gary Roberts for us??? We can't seem to move him from in front of the net.


ok sorry never heard of it in sofl...

your wish is my command............roberts out with hamstring pull; what can go wrong does to this franchise,


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

jheda said:


> ok sorry never heard of it in sofl...
> 
> your wish is my command............roberts out with hamstring pull; what can go wrong does to this franchise,


Thank you!! Can you do anything about the DLB problem now???


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

A general comment: the features that are rolling out now, Viiv for instance, have been in design for some time to be released at this stage. I'm sorry to say, but we all can tell that DLB was not a designed feature, so to add that right now will likely take some serious design and architectural review--before they can commit.

On top of that, no programming manager will happily pull a team off a very nearly finished project (back to Viiv), to start another feature. I'd finish as quickly as possible THEN switch. So any forward progress is good. Better would be a "DLB will be implemented" statement, but the analysis must be done first.

So, as has been said here, official confirmation that Directv is seriously considering DLB is a step forward as far as our visibility is concerned.

Cheers,
Tom


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## marty45714 (Dec 16, 2006)

Is this poll some kind of joke? Just trying to be funny... I just read the author's reasoning though and I can see his point. The more I watch this thing, the more annoying not having the DLB is than it was before. I hope you get your wish and DirecTV puts it in there, but personally I can live without it, and can definitely think of other things that I would give a higher priority to than this. Good luck.


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## ZELLIS (Jan 5, 2007)

noob question... what is DLB?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ZELLIS said:


> noob question... what is DLB?


Alert! :newbie:

Someone want to tell the new guy what DLB is?
I suggest doing it by song....

:new_smili

Search is your friend... search on DLB and Dual Live Buffers

And

:welcome_s


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Someone want to tell the new guy what DLB is?
> I suggest doing it by song....


There's also http://www.dbstalk.com/acronyms.htm


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

Nice Earl!! DLB are Dual Live Buffers a feature that is available on the TiVo based HDDVR (HR10-250). It is essentially the ability to pause one tuner, got to the other tuner and watch something else, and than switch vback and pick up where you left off. It is particularly desireable during football season, where you can pause one game at a commercial break, go to another game to a commercial break, pause the second and go back to the first and skip the commercials. It is definately a feature you dont miss until you dont have it. 

Cheers and Welcome,

Jim


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I think Earl is getting tired :lol:


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

ZELLIS said:


> noob question... what is DLB?


DLB is Dual live buffers.........i am NOT a tech, so simply but, there are buffers on two channels so you can pause live and flip to another channel, watch live, then pause that channel and return to original channel which would have remained paused. Great way to watch 2 baseball games at one time; watch a half inning of game 1; pause; go to game 2 and watch till that goes to commercial and switch back to game one.

the issue is IMHO is that TIVO units had that and hr-20 only has one buffer (90 minutes long)....this thread and others are lobbying this feature important to many of us to be added ASAP.

For more technical explanation, search away!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

jimb726 said:


> Nice Earl!! DLB are Dual Live Buffers a feature that is available on the TiVo based HDDVR (HR10-250). It is essentially the ability to pause one tuner, got to the other tuner and watch something else, and than switch vback and pick up where you left off. It is particularly desireable during football season, where you can pause one game at a commercial break, go to another game to a commercial break, pause the second and go back to the first and skip the commercials. It is definately a feature you dont miss until you dont have it.
> 
> Cheers and Welcome,
> 
> Jim


like a girlfriend :lol:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I'm think in the "spirt" of Michael Jackson's PYT...

D.L.B Dual Live Buff.... I want to Love you... 

(Yes, I am getting tired)


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## HiDefGator (Nov 20, 2005)

Software companies never "commit" to features until someone is actually assigned to work on it. Suppose it will be 6 months before someone is available to work on DLB. If a more important feature benefiting more users is thought up during that 6 month window what should they do? Not do the new feature because they commited to DLB? Or postpone DLB again but still tell you they are commited to doing them one day.

The simple truth is the day they say they are commited to doing DLB you will start harping about why won't they give you a date for them. Your rant's will go on and on and on about how they have been commited to them for 2 years but they still won't give you a date on them. 

It's a freakin DVR. If DLB is that important to you then go buy another HR20 and park it on top of your existing HR20. There as if by magic you have DLB today for the grand sum of an extra $5 a month.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I'm think in the "spirt" of Michael Jackson's PYT...
> 
> D.L.B Dual Live Buff.... I want to Love you...
> 
> (Yes, I am getting tired)


we are here to back you.......:lol:

btw my hold em poker game tonight if u want to fly to ft laud........seat available


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> Software companies never "commit" to features until someone is actually assigned to work on it. Suppose it will be 6 months before someone is available to work on DLB. If a more important feature benefiting more users is thought up during that 6 month window what should they do? Not do the new feature because they commited to DLB? Or postpone DLB again but still tell you they are commited to doing them one day.
> 
> The simple truth is the day they say they are commited to doing DLB you will start harping about why won't they give you a date for them. Your rant's will go on and on and on about how they have been commited to them for 2 years but they still won't give you a date on them.
> 
> It's a freakin DVR. If DLB is that important to you then go buy another HR20 and park it on top of your existing HR20. There as if by magic you have DLB today for the grand sum of an extra $5 a month.


Gee, why didn't anyone think of that before?


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Aren't there a bunch of software programmers (ahem - EARL) in this forum? Why don't you all band together and offer to work on this for them? I'd offer, but the last program I wrote went something like this:

10 Home
20 Input d$ "Shall we play a game?" (Where the hell does that colon go?)
30 If "yes" etc etc etc

So...

If Press Yellow Button
Goto Tuner 2

Geeesh, how many lines of code can it take?


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

As soon as they get this a little better and/or when the new hd channels come out I'm buying a second box.. too much on friday nights  and since my old samung hd receiver will be retired.. won't cost any more per month


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> Aren't there a bunch of software programmers (ahem - EARL) in this forum? Why don't you all band together and offer to work on this for them? I'd offer, but the last program I wrote went something like this:
> 
> 10 Home
> 20 Input d$ "Shall we play a game?" (Where the hell does that colon go?)
> ...


I wrote some of those programs too.. ever tried to do "long" divition in basic?


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> Software companies never "commit" to features until someone is actually assigned to work on it. Suppose it will be 6 months before someone is available to work on DLB. If a more important feature benefiting more users is thought up during that 6 month window what should they do? Not do the new feature because they commited to DLB? Or postpone DLB again but still tell you they are commited to doing them one day.
> 
> The simple truth is the day they say they are commited to doing DLB you will start harping about why won't they give you a date for them. Your rant's will go on and on and on about how they have been commited to them for 2 years but they still won't give you a date on them.
> 
> It's a freakin DVR. If DLB is that important to you then go buy another HR20 and park it on top of your existing HR20. There as if by magic you have DLB today for the grand sum of an extra $5 a month.


and only $15 for you to join DLB! Do it in the name of the gator victory!!!!


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

houskamp said:


> I wrote some of those programs too.. ever tried to do "long" divition in basic?


I just wanted my TI/994a to talk to me,

(and play Global Thermal Nuclear War)


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## jclark (Oct 4, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> I just wanted my TI/994a to talk to me,
> 
> (and play Global Thermal Nuclear War)


Wow!! Blast from the past. Of course you had to get extended basic do make it worthwhile. I miss my 994a. My first computer. You didn't get the speech synthesizer?


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

jclark said:


> Wow!! Blast from the past. Of course you had to get extended basic do make it worthwhile. I miss my 994a. My first computer. You didn't get the speech synthesizer?


ACTUALLY -

Yes I did get the speech synth unit. Did you load programs into it with a Tape deck like I did?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

:backtotop I bet my hdmi switcher would be faster and more reliable for switching between 2 boxes too  
Alright back to the comedy/memories :lol:


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## jclark (Oct 4, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> ACTUALLY -
> 
> Yes I did get the speech synth unit. Did you load programs into it with a Tape deck like I did?


Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. Man that crazy cable that you used to hook up a standard tape recorder. LOL! Hadn't thought of that in years. The RF modulator that you had to use to hook it up to your TV. That thing was huge.

I never did get the speech synth unit but I wanted one. They had that cool space game that would use it. I don't remember the name, but it was defender like.... I think.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

jclark said:


> Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. Man that crazy cable that you used to hook up a standard tape recorder. LOL! Hadn't thought of that in years. The RF modulator that you had to use to hook it up to your TV. That thing was huge.
> 
> I never did get the speech synth unit but I wanted one. They had that cool space game that would use it. I don't remember the name, but it was defender like.... I think.


PARSEC!!!!


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## jclark (Oct 4, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> PARSEC!!!!


Dude!!!!!! That's it!!!!!!


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

The moral of the story:

My TI/994A just wouldn't do AI no matter how hard a 5th grader tried. In my estimation it was short sighted of TI not to include it. :lol: In the end - that product line was scrapped from the market and TI got out of the PC biz.

:scratchin

Hmmm - Now what is the fate of the HR20 should D* fail to add DLB??

(Sorry had to get back on topic somehow.)

:computer:


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> The moral of the story:
> 
> My TI/994A just wouldn't do AI no matter how hard a 5th grader tried. In my estimation it was short sighted of TI not to include it. :lol: In the end - that product line was scrapped from the market and TI got out of the PC biz.
> 
> ...


I think the fate of the HR20 should they not add DLB is simply it's a DVR without DLB that will have a long life. Pretty easy to figure out if you ask me.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> I think the fate of the HR20 should they not add DLB is simply it's a DVR without DLB that will have a long life. Pretty easy to figure out if you ask me.


[sarcasm]
No no no I disagree.

I am quite sure that TI's failure to add Artificial Intelligence to the TI is a clear illustration and foreshadowing, with obvious parallels to the HR20 and the lack of DLB.

The HR20 is doomed. Just look at history. 
[/sarcasm]


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Well...

In light of the realization that DLBs could be a long way off for the HR20, I've been doing some research. (For you die-hards, there may not be much new here.)

As many of you may know, TIVO and Comcast announced their deal a couple days ago.

The new TIVO is going to support HD and OnDemand - and have all the other classic TIVO features. I am ASSUMING that includes DLB.

It looks like they are looking for a Spring Launch date. I would hate to lose my D* service, but to top it off, I can use my Rhapsody service through the new box as well.

I'm going to be thinking hard about jumping ship when Comcast launches this service.

For those of you that want to check it out, there is some info and links in this thread: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=335507


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## dennisdh (Nov 20, 2006)

I'm all about DLB and would also consider dumping *d if I have to.


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## SDizzle (Jan 1, 2007)

I love DLB  My best friend finally switched to D* from E* New Years weekend, and one thing that he always liked about my DTivos was DLB. Unfortunately, we are at the mercy of D* right now, and he found that out the hard way, want MPEG4 channels? No DLB :nono2: He received the HR20 and the new 5 LNB dish. I use DLB still on my HR10-250. I find that I use DLB mostly during ST season. Because of ST, D* knows that package alone represents a very large percentage of their customer base. And many subs, myself included, cringe at the thought of leaving D* and not having ST :eek2: So, for me DLB is something "I LOVE", but not more than ST, so I wouldn't cancel service over no DLB on new D* DVRs :nono: 

D's stand: You want ST? You want MOOOOOOORE HD, they're going to be MPEG4! But, you get NO DLB on our MPEG4 compatible DVRs. You still wanna cancel?????? We didn't think so, thank you Mr. A List customer, and don't call us again :lol:


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

hasan said:


> By being off on my guess by 1 year? I got one of the first ones...damn expensive...999 bucks!


Yea, I paid 1000.00 as well. I think the model of the receiver was a SATB2. I've still got it. For some reason?

Topic: Dual buffers would be nice, but it's not a deal breaker for me.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> Well...
> 
> In light of the realization that DLBs could be a long way off for the HR20, I've been doing some research. (For you die-hards, there may not be much new here.)
> 
> ...


You're in Michigan and you seriously still want Comcast? All I can say is good luck with that. I would rather have two DTV receivers and 2 SA Tivo's then anything to do with them. They where horrible when I left Mi and are horrible at every one of my families houses.

As for the ammouncement I still have to take the wait and see approach that product has been coming for a LONG time.

One of the CES things that interested me is the Digeo Moxi going retail. It's going to be Cable Card and it looks pretty cool on their site. I always wanted to check it out but before your cable company had to flat out support the device.


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## HiDefGator (Nov 20, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> As many of you may know, TIVO and Comcast announced their deal a couple days ago.
> 
> The new TIVO is going to support HD and OnDemand - and have all the other classic TIVO features. I am ASSUMING that includes DLB.


I wouldn't bet on that. They have already said it doesn't have Kidzone, TTG, or MRV. It is Tivo software running on top of the Motorola hardware. It may have DLB or it may not. Might depend on if the hardware can support it or not. I doubt Comcast would view DLB as a must have anymore than DTV does.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> You're in Michigan and you seriously still want Comcast? All I can say is good luck with that. I would rather have two DTV receivers and 2 SA Tivo's then anything to do with them. They where horrible when I left Mi and are horrible at every one of my families houses.
> 
> As for the ammouncement I still have to take the wait and see approach that product has been coming for a LONG time.
> 
> One of the CES things that interested me is the Digeo Moxi going retail. It's going to be Cable Card and it looks pretty cool on their site. I always wanted to check it out but before your cable company had to flat out support the device.


that looks cool - and expensive.

I've said before how much i would regret leaving D*. I am not chompin at the bit to go to Comcast. But TV hasn't been the same for me. I want HD - I want DLB. If D* doesn't offer that, then they don't offer it.

If 2 years down the road, they offer it, I'd probably come back. The way things are going, it seems like it could be 6 months at least before they have this box stable. If thats the case, DLB is so far down on their list right now, it could be a year or more before they even start entertaining it.

If something that fulfills my "wants" comes along before that, then I guess I go.

All I know is this: With my HR20, I turn on the TV and get that old, pre-tivo days thought: There's nothing on. I had my Tivo for years and RARELY had that thought. I feel like my hands are tied with the HR20, because I can't (won't) watch live tv (commercials). With Tivo - i simply paused and switched tuners to channel surf - until i found two shows to watch, that I could switch back and forth with. If I try to watch live with the HR20, I get bored, or annoyed with waiting for commercials. Even if I try the "work around" and go to programs i have recorded. Its just not quick and easy like the "Live TV" button.

Of course, I'm not going to jump ship if everyone is complaining about the Comcast Tivo out of the gate. But assuming it gets fair reviews, I'd probably have to bail.

UNLESS - D* says - DLBs are coming - we will be working on it during x time frame.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> I wouldn't bet on that. They have already said it doesn't have Kidzone, TTG, or MRV. It is Tivo software running on top of the Motorola hardware. It may have DLB or it may not. Might depend on if the hardware can support it or not. I doubt Comcast would view DLB as a must have anymore than DTV does.


Well I hope to know the answer to that soon. And when I find out - I will pass that info along.

You know I didn't watch TV for 10 years during the 90s. That is how little tolerance i have for commercials blaring in my ear.

I had 10/month cable to get the reception of my locals for news/events and that was it. Listened to my Tiggers on the radio.

Hmmm. If I can't have DLBs on either, maybe me and Netflix might be getting cozy. I'll save 1000 a year, up my netflix script and get one of those neat LG HD-DVD/Blueray machines.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I just record everything. DLB mean nothing cause I just don't watch live TV. I have better things to do then waste my time with live TV.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I just record everything. DLB mean nothing cause I just don't watch live TV. I have better things to do then waste my time with live TV.


do you watch two live events, ie two baseball games at the same time? where u can toggle back and forth miss nothing and not see a commercial? thats the beauty of it. You are right it sounds like you use a dvr like VOD and dual buffers become irrelevant.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

It's interesting to me that the Yes responses are going up. Anyone want to comment on why they are choosing "Yes"? Does it have anything to do with the Comcast/TIVO announcement?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

jheda said:


> do you watch two live events, ie two baseball games at the same time? where u can toggle back and forth miss nothing and not see a commercial? thats the beauty of it. You are right it sounds like you use a dvr like VOD and dual buffers become irrelevant.


I was teasing more then anything. But no, I hate baseball so I don't watch two games at once. 

Honestly though I've had Sunday Ticket for a long time. I used dual buffers back in the day. But 4 years ago I got HD and only had a non-DVR HD receiver. I only watched Sunday Ticket on the HD box for the past 4 years. So I've gotten over dual buffers and just don't care about it anymore. I don't need to see every play of 2 games on at once. Heck, I'm flipping around between 8+ games at once, player tracker giving me instant updates on players on screen and live stats streaming on my laptop, I know all the key plays as they happen live. I have no desire to go "back" on another tuner to see the play I already know happened. And if I'm that hard up for 2 games at once I'll just to PIP or bring in a 2nd TV.

But that's just me. I've gotten used to no dual buffers over the years and don't miss it. In general viewing I never really used dual buffers. The whole point of a DVR (in my mind) is to not watch live TV on the networks schedule but to watch TV on *my* schedule. Guess I drank too much Tivo coolaid back in the day. Having a DVR since my first stand alone Tivo 7 years ago neither me nor my wife watch live TV. It's such a rare occurance that we actually get annoyed when we are and can't fast foward past a commercial.  We might only turn the TV on 3 days a week and watch all our show marathon style. TV is dark the rest of the time while we other better things then waste time trying to find something to watch. 

But to each his own, there is no right or wrong answer here, eveyone can use their DVR however they so choose.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I'll also say that I believe that most people that even own a Tivo have no idea dual buffers is even a feature. They have no idea. I know 10 people that have DirecTivo's. I asked them about dual buffers some time ago when this debate raged before. 
8 of them looked at me like I spoke greek and had no idea what I was talking about.
1 knew about it but rarely used it (like me).
The last one used dual buffers a lot and found it a key feature for him.
These are all techy/computer geeks and 8 of 10 had no idea it was a feature of the box.

I'm sure this is pretty common. Joe Sixpack who doesn't even know they aren't watching HD with "digital cable" certainly has no idea what dual buffers are if it hit them in the face. Thus we have a small number of people that even know about it and even less that find it a "must have" feature.
So DirecTV and any other company needs to weigh the actual demand for such a feature vs. time, money, and technical ease to provide such a feature.

I do feel it's kinda strange they didn't have dual buffers at the start but then there has to be a reason why they didn't.


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## joejhawk (Oct 3, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Honestly though I've had Sunday Ticket for a long time. I used dual buffers back in the day. But 4 years ago I got HD and only had a non-DVR HD receiver. I only watched Sunday Ticket on the HD box for the past 4 years. So I've gotten over dual buffers and just don't care about it anymore. I don't need to see every play of 2 games on at once. Heck, I'm flipping around between 8+ games at once, player tracker giving me instant updates on players on screen and live stats streaming on my laptop, I know all the key plays as they happen live. I have no desire to go "back" on another tuner to see the play I already know happened. And if I'm that hard up for 2 games at once I'll just to PIP or bring in a 2nd TV.


That's exactly where I miss DLB the most, I like to have MY game on one tuner and use the other one to flip around the other games or leave it on the Red Zone. PIP is MUCH better with DLB because if you notice something happened on the other tuner, you can swap, rewind and see what it was.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

jheda said:


> do you watch two live events, ie two baseball games at the same time? where u can toggle back and forth miss nothing and not see a commercial? thats the beauty of it. You are right it sounds like you use a dvr like VOD and dual buffers become irrelevant.


I have done that sometime in the past myself, but the workaround seems very simple. Record both shows and you can do the same thing.

Obviously the stumbling block is if you don't have 20% of your hard drive space free this is not feasible. However, I can and do manage if the situation comes up.

To be honest on my tivos I have to record two things to do that anyways, now that I think about it. I have so many season passes on my main workhorse box, that odds are significant that I will have something come up during an event that will change the channel and start recording something else. So unless I am standing over it like a hawk the whole time, I am likely to lose my buffers. So I actually record two things when I want to go back and forth now anyways, or else I have to go through in advance and clear out all the upcoming programs during the window.

When I add an external drive and have enough space, I see this as a total non-issue for me. I would prefer that DirecTV work on a number of other issues before DLB because it is something that can be worked around pretty easily.


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## joejhawk (Oct 3, 2006)

marksman said:


> I have done that sometime in the past myself, but the workaround seems very simple. Record both shows and you can do the same thing.


You can hit one button and switch back and forth? Maybe I'm not doing the workaround right.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I do feel it's kinda strange they didn't have dual buffers at the start but then there has to be a reason why they didn't.


I am guessing here, but I think that they plan (and perhaps already do) use the second tuner to support interactive content, perhaps the showcase and/or the on demand type services. I don't sub to Sunday Ticket, but I have seen discussions regarding some of the interactive services, perhaps the second tuner is being used to collect data for that purpose. Personally I think that DLB is a must have, it was in my prior D* DVR product, the same features (barring copyright limitations) should of moved forward with future products. IMO the interactive features should be optional, and they need to develop a way to support DLB that works with other services they may wish to provide in the future.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I'll also say that I believe that most people that even own a Tivo have no idea dual buffers is even a feature. They have no idea. I know 10 people that have DirecTivo's. I asked them about dual buffers some time ago when this debate raged before.
> 8 of them looked at me like I spoke greek and had no idea what I was talking about.
> 1 knew about it but rarely used it (like me).
> The last one used dual buffers a lot and found it a key feature for him.
> ...


Scott, I had NO IDEA what dlb was with the couple years i had tivo; but the minute i didnt have it i knew! AS a non techie, i just new there were 2channels tivo kept a 30minute memory of..........


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

joejhawk said:


> You can hit one button and switch back and forth? Maybe I'm not doing the workaround right.


It's not really one click on a TiVo (unless you don't care about maintaining your place, but then you could do that with changing the channel).

On the TiVo, it's PAUSE -> DOWN ARROW -> PAUSE.

On the HR20, it's PAUSE -> BACK -> Up or Down arrow -> PLAY

So it's one more click. You can actually do it in 3 clicks on the HR20 by doing STOP -> Up Arrow (instead of Down Arrow) -> PLAY but that displays one of the recordings caught up to live, so there is a chance to have the score spoiled with sports, so I always use BACK instead of STOP.

More info here (note the caveat about being caught up to live). Note (so I don't get attacked for it again), this is not the same as DLB since you have to record the shows, but it maybe a suitable workaround if you don't mind recording them (and have space) and only want to jump around to two things and no more.


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## deebeeeff (Oct 10, 2006)

I think this poll needed another option. Because my answer is neither "yes", nor "no", but rather "not yet". The way the poll is currently worded I was forced to answer "No".
Actually, I think a better way to word the poll would be: "If D* announced that they would never be adding DLB to HR20 (or an HR20 replacement), would you drop D*?"
Then my answer would be a resounding "YES! BYE BYE!"


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

deebeeeff said:


> I think this poll needed another option. Because my answer is neither "yes", nor "no", but rather "not yet". The way the poll is currently worded I was forced to answer "No".
> Actually, I think a better way to word the poll would be: "If D* announced that they would never be adding DLB to HR20 (or an HR20 replacement), would you drop D*?"
> Then my answer would be a resounding "YES! BYE BYE!"


Then your answer to the poll is "Yes", like mine.

1. D* would never "announce" they weren't going to add a feature. 
2. You, like me, ultimately want the feature so badly, that when you finally come to the unfortunate realization that the feature isn't coming any time soon, you will likely have to find a new solution to get the feature.

I imagine we agree on this as well: The last thing I want to do is leave D*, but...


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

A random thought about DLB. Is it possible that implementing DLB on the HR20 might actually aid in the stability? I assume (dangerous I know) with two tuners and one buffer that there must be some memory management involved in allocating memory blocks to the two tuners. Also, if you're not recording two programs at the same time what is the second tuner doing?? 
So, if you have DLB activated and allocate *specific* blocks of memory to each buffer does this not prevent (or at least make less likely) the possibility of the two tuners stepping on each others memory? I'm probably over simplifying. Like I said - just a random thougt.


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> OMG...
> 
> Seriously...
> They are still considering the feature...
> ...


Excellent news - Fix the present bugs before adding others. Hope springs eternal Earl. OR at least two more months for me.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

S. DiThomas said:


> Excellent news - Fix the present bugs before adding others. Hope springs eternal Earl. OR at least two more months for me.


we just have to keep it on the radar


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## sunking (Feb 17, 2004)

brewer4 said:


> DLB is fine but my preference would be for Picture in Picture PIP. I too vote for stability over anything else at this point now that OTA is out there. Is PIP a deal breaker, not at all. Will it come, doubt it but I think its a similar request to DLB. Less popular but still shouldnt be a leave D* because of it.


Umm..how do you implement PIP without first having DLB? A PIP implementation that doesn't use DLBs would be a user nightmare.

The only way to do it today would be to record two shows, making surfing impossible. Or only be able to replay one of the streams? That would just be horrible. The whole point is that so if you see something interesting you can swap back and most likely go back to see what you missed.

Does the HR20 even have the horsepower to simulataneously record, decode, and properly scale 2 HD streams? Of all of the things requested PIP seems to me to be the least likely to happen.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

It is CRITICAL to fix the stability issues 1st. One can only go forward after this is done-no more black screens, freezes etc.

Then do one improvements 1 at a time. Check it out via a controlled release ( in this forum for example) to see if it works and has not caused stability issues and then do the next etc.

This is the path forward.-with care and perserverance.

Joel


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

jmschnur said:


> It is CRITICAL to fix the stability issues 1st. One can only go forward after this is done-no more black screens, freezes etc.
> 
> Then do one improvements 1 at a time. Check it out via a controlled release ( in this forum for example) to see if it works and has not caused stability issues and then do the next etc.
> 
> ...


We are all on the same page in this regard. Some just want to hear with 100% certainty that DLB is in the pipeline, on the menu ....etc


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