# 622 POOR SD Quality



## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

I just upgraded today from the 625 SD DVR to the 622 HD DVR....

I am quite please with picture quality of the HD programming, but the SD channels across the board are extremely poor. Compared to the same channels this morning... fox news, espn, etc... the same channells now are MUCH worse...
I have read somewhere the fact that since I am outputing 720p or 1080i from the box to the TV, that the 622 itself is doing a HORRIBLE job of upconverting that signal. Since there is no native passthrough, and i think the HDMI cannot pass 480i, what have others done...

Do you have the same issues with the SD content... I know for a fact that it is much worse than it was this morning watching on the SD 625... I had thought about running an s-video seperate to watch the SD channells, but would have to switch the TV's input as well as switch the 622's output to 480i everytime that i switched channels... Should I expect this poor quality as normal, or is this something that can be remedies? or is it a box problem, and would a replacement solve anything....


Thanks and I look forward to any input.


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## bruin95 (Apr 23, 2006)

farleyville said:


> Do you have the same issues with the SD content...


Not at all. I have the 622 to output at 1080i for all channels via HDMI and the SD channels look fine. Most look better than my local digital cable. I have a 1080p TV. I don't know if that is making a difference with SD or not. I have a 62" screen and sit about 11 feet from it. SD looks pretty good.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Depends upon the channel and type of programming. ESPN (non-HD) looks horrible to me on my 65" but looks fine on my 32" TV. Cartoon Network is pretty good on my 65", and very sharp on my 32".

Since Dish has different compression settings for different groups of channels, it's no surprise to have varying results.

I do have S-video connected from my ViP622, but have not done a lot of comparisons at this point because I get tired of switching my TV input to compare... all-in-all the SD is tolerable to good but some channels are worse than others.


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## tedb3rd (Feb 2, 2006)

I think it has to do with the fact that you've seen HD now. SD looks pretty bad after you watch HD for a while. ...and the bigger the screen, the more you're gonna' notice. ...but I also think you're correct in that some channels appear worse than others due to varying compression ratios.

If you can do it with your HDTV, put a side-by-side PIP. You're image size should be about the equivalent of your 32"--I'll bet ESPN now looks better and Cartoon Network is even better.


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

NO,
I actually still have the 625 box, hasnt shipped back yet, and I hooked it up for comparison... the SD, channels that I have saved on the DVR, ARE WAY BETTER...

For instance, tickers at the bottom of the screen, or sports scores are not crisp lines, and are soft and jagged.... not the case on the 625... I thought that maybe it was that I had just looked at HD, but not true, when comparing the 625 hooked up via S-video... it looks better than the 622 hooked up via HDMI (on SD that is)... without question...

The test subjects were a movie recorded off of TBS a week ago, and a TBS movie earlier tonight... same channel, same TV (46" 720p), poorer results with the 622.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well try comparing your 622 hooked to svideo with your 625 hooked to svideo. That would be a more apple to apple comparison since they the TV will be doing the scaling not the receiver. 

Also there are other things that can effect PQ with a TV and it can be a channel by channel basis. One of them is Sharpness. Contrast.. Video mode.. Do not have you TV set to vivid. 

Also might want to change to 720p and see if that improves things. Everybodies configurations are different and might take some tweaking to get things satisfactory on your SD.


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## IcEWoLF (Jan 14, 2007)

Well i have charter cable..and my problem relates to the same problem this guy has..i had 3 techs coming..they couldn't do a damn thing about it...i think the receivers need to do a better job when displaying 480i image type on SD...coaxile cable connection for SD is far superior compared to HDMI/Component...thats the truth..if you get HDTV receiver all ur SD channels will look like crap.

BTW i got a Sony 32" inch bravia..i dubt its the TV's problem.


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## ClaytonD (Oct 26, 2006)

SD on my 23" and 32" LCD HD sets are just fine. Not as good on the 50" DLP set. But then again, you're stretching the already not great SD content to 50", so it's to be expected. It's tolerable, but if I really want to watch a SD channel, I just go to the smaller sets. I was at my parents house yesterday and watched some of the Bears/Seahawks game on their CRT via regular cable. Got home before it was over and watched the rest of it via DN SD (locals). The DN SD was way better. So it still beats cable on a CRT.


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

I have my 622 connected to a Toshiba CRT RPTV via component. I marvel at the quality of some of the SD channels.

When I had a 6000 receiver I used S-video for SD because I hated the softness of SD via component. 622 is a huge improvement. I tried the S-video with the 622 SD but it was inferior to the component connection.


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

BillJ said:


> I have my 622 connected to a Toshiba CRT RPTV via component. I marvel at the quality of some of the SD channels.
> 
> When I had a 6000 receiver I used S-video for SD because I hated the softness of SD via component. 622 is a huge improvement. I tried the S-video with the 622 SD but it was inferior to the component connection.


I may have to try the components, because on the 46" the quality of the SD has gone way done with the 622/hdmi vs. the old 625/s-video...


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## hoehemi1 (Aug 5, 2005)

I was following all the discussions on the quality of the SD channels in the past with great interest and want to share with you my personal experience.

Had D* 3 years ago for 18 months and was not impressed with the SD quality. Got three TVs and my Toshiba 40" RPTV was the worst. I come from Europe and am used to PAL quality, which I received over satellite. It was so much better.

Switched to Dish 18 months ago to receive HD (had a 924) and some international channels combined with an HD DVR. HD was great but SD remained kind of poor. Upgraded to a 622 in April and no significant changes to the picture quality.

3 weeks ago I purchased a LCD 32" 720p Samsung and moved the Toshiba to the basement. The SD quality is sooooooo much better since then. No smearing, no visible artefacts and super clear colours.

I came to the conclusion if one wants a good SD (or HD) picture, the TV size combined with the viewing distance and most important the quality of your TV matters most.


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

hoehemi1 said:


> I was following all the discussions on the quality of the SD channels in the past with great interest and want to share with you my personal experience.
> 
> Had D* 3 years ago for 18 months and was not impressed with the SD quality. Got three TVs and my Toshiba 40" RPTV was the worst. I come from Europe and am used to PAL quality, which I received over satellite. It was so much better.
> 
> ...


I definitely agree that the TV matters the most... that is part of the problem that I think I have... the comparison that I am doing, is on the same sony 46" TV, at the same distance, in the same location, etc..., Only a new dish receiver.... but now the dish 622 is upconverting the signal to 720p, rather than passing 480i (like the non-HD 625) and allowing the TV to do the upconvert.... I think the Sony 46e2000 does an amazing job with SD signals, which is why I chose the model I did over a DLP, etc... on instore side by side comparison...

The problem now with the 622, is that I can no longer pass the 480i to the TV.... NATIVE pass-through, I THINK, would be the life saver... I am going to try components tonight along with S-Video, but I think I already know the answer...


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## humara (Jan 12, 2007)

maybe the OP has a TV with much better internal scaling than the vip622 provides?
supposedly the pioneer plasmas have some of the best scalers in them. i wouldn't know since i only have a lowly philips.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well if you do s-video on the 622 it should be 480i. Also, I thought you could do 480i through component and HDMI but maybe it is 480p I am thinking about. Anyway.. It would be interesting what your results would be when you do the 622 with svideo compared to the 625. If you use the same input then it should be a apple to apple comparison.


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## koralis (Aug 10, 2005)

farleyville said:


> I definitely agree that the TV matters the most... that is part of the problem that I think I have... the comparison that I am doing, is on the same sony 46" TV, at the same distance, in the same location, etc..., Only a new dish receiver.... but now the dish 622 is upconverting the signal to 720p, rather than passing 480i (like the non-HD 625) and allowing the TV to do the upconvert.... I think the Sony 46e2000 does an amazing job with SD signals, which is why I chose the model I did over a DLP, etc... on instore side by side comparison...
> 
> The problem now with the 622, is that I can no longer pass the 480i to the TV.... NATIVE pass-through, I THINK, would be the life saver... I am going to try components tonight along with S-Video, but I think I already know the answer...


There's the difference in inputs (s-video vs component or hdmi), as well as the format (480i vs 720p) to think about also.

On most modern TVs, each input is configured seperately for color, brightness, sharpness, etc. If this is your first time using this input, it's probably not been configured (service menus can configure even more.)

Before giving up hope, you might want to try tweaking the picture to see if you can get improvement. My SD picture quality improved dramatically after adjustment.

Also, you may want to try outputting 1080i for comparision. yes, you'll have a double-scaling but it might be that the 622 scales to 1080i more accurately and then the sony can scale it back down.


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

Well,
After doing a comparison last night, I see no improvement using the s-video, component, or HDMI at any setting, 480i, 720p, and 1080i.... i tried all the combinations... After much analysis, i finally determined that the problem i am seeing, i believe, is some sort of "echo" for lack of a better term, where the picture is reproduced in ghosting over and over again across the picture... this was noticeable on a fe adds with a black screen and white text... this ghosting continues to what appears to be infinitely across the screen. once i saw this i began analyzing each channel more closely, and found that this was true on any input and any resolution for the SD channellls... HD is perfect?

any suggestions? I am making a call to Dish.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

farleyville said:


> ... HD is perfect?
> 
> any suggestions? I am making a call to Dish.


If you can get your hands on a Digital Video Essentials DVD, I think you'll be pleased with the results. I adjusted my Sony with this and I was surprised with some of the settings I ended up with. It's money well spent. $16.99 from Amazon.


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

farleyville said:


> I just upgraded today from the 625 SD DVR to the 622 HD DVR....
> 
> I am quite please with picture quality of the HD programming, but the SD channels across the board are extremely poor.
> 
> Do you have the same issues with the SD content... I know for a fact that it is much worse than it was this morning watching on the SD 625... I had thought about running an s-video seperate to watch the SD channells, but would have to switch the TV's input as well as switch the 622's output to 480i everytime that i switched channels... Should I expect this poor quality as normal, or is this something that can be remedies? or is it a box problem, and would a replacement solve anything....


Just so you know - no you are not imagining things. I had the same experience upgrading from the 510 to the 622 - hd is beautiful, most sd channels are horrible. It has something to do with the way the 622 is processing the sd channels. I was also told, "oh, you're just used to hd now so the sd looks bad" - not true! My tv is a Sony 34" xbr widescreen that we watch from about 10'. If one of the locals broadcast in sd, the picture was horrible whereas with the ever-buggy 510, it was beautiful (I wanted hd and was really tired of the the buggy 510). I tried all of the adjustments, using different outputs, etc. - it's just the way the 622 handles the sd signal. Some channels (animal planet for instance) are still beautiful in sd but most are not. Keeping my fingers crossed for native pass-through and hoping that will make a difference.


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

dbconsultant said:


> Just so you know - no you are not imagining things. I had the same experience upgrading from the 510 to the 622 - hd is beautiful, most sd channels are horrible. It has something to do with the way the 622 is processing the sd channels. I was also told, "oh, you're just used to hd now so the sd looks bad" - not true! My tv is a Sony 34" xbr widescreen that we watch from about 10'. If one of the locals broadcast in sd, the picture was horrible whereas with the ever-buggy 510, it was beautiful (I wanted hd and was really tired of the the buggy 510). I tried all of the adjustments, using different outputs, etc. - it's just the way the 622 handles the sd signal. Some channels (animal planet for instance) are still beautiful in sd but most are not. Keeping my fingers crossed for native pass-through and hoping that will make a difference.


Well thanks for the input. Makes me feel better, even though there doesnt seem to be a fix for this.

My conspiracy theorist brain started wondering if Dish intentionally made the SD channells look worse on the 622, so that by comparison the HD material would look better... nahhhhh they wouldnt do that, :eek2:


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

TulsaOK said:


> If you can get your hands on a Digital Video Essentials DVD, I think you'll be pleased with the results. I adjusted my Sony with this and I was surprised with some of the settings I ended up with. It's money well spent. $16.99 from Amazon.


I do have DVE and have calibrated the TV using it.. all of my inputs are set up using the DVE settings...


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

This is very interesting.. I know a lot of people have moved from SD DVRs to HD DVRs and have gotten only a few posts regarding a huge PQ gap in these situations. Not saying it is not true for people reporting. Just finding it interesting. 

I would expect the PQ on the 622 through svideo compared to the PQ on the 625 through the svideo to be comparable. In this scenario, the TV should be doing the scaling on both and the should minimize and PQ difference. Interesting that some are finding it not to be... 

The ghosting thing makes me think something is wrong with the box. I assume this is shown on all inputs and all resolutions? I watch SD on my 60" Sony Grand Wega II and on my 32" Sony 4x3 CRT and I am not seeing any ghosting and th PQ is acceptable to both. Actually looks good on the 32" but I am viewing at about 13'. 

What is your power like connected to your 622? Is it on a UPS, power conditioner, or just plugged straight into the wall?


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

Ron Barry said:


> What is your power like connected to your 622? Is it on a UPS, power conditioner, or just plugged straight into the wall?


Currently have the 622 plugged into a cheapo surge proctector, no UPS or power conditioner.


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## daemon (Apr 24, 2006)

I have found just the opposite experience, I had a 508 hooked up to a 1080p 56" DLP and the SD picture was horrible. I have a 622 hooked up via HDMI and most SD channels look pretty good. I sit about 12' from the TV.


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

daemon said:


> I have found just the opposite experience, I had a 508 hooked up to a 1080p 56" DLP and the SD picture was horrible. I have a 622 hooked up via HDMI and most SD channels look pretty good. I sit about 12' from the TV.


hmmm interesting, i have a very limited expierience with this, but could the removal of the dish 500 and installation of the 1000 have caused this? perhaps its aligned for the 129 for HD, but not properly setup for the others... I am way out of my expertice on this one, but figured some folks here would have a working knowledge of it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Doubt it ... It is a digital stream from the dish to the receiver so you should not get any PQ difference with different dishes. Well I could see it happening if you had the same channel was on two different Sats and those sats were configured differently but other than that I doubt it. 

What you will get is a lower signal and more pixelization and breakup. Not a drop in PQ. Wondering if possible power source could be a contributing factor here. I know I did get a PQ improved on SD when I installed my power conditioner. Perhaps the 625 is more immune to power issues.


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## Larry Caldwell (Apr 4, 2005)

Ron Barry said:


> This is very interesting.. I know a lot of people have moved from SD DVRs to HD DVRs and have gotten only a few posts regarding a huge PQ gap in these situations. Not saying it is not true for people reporting. Just finding it interesting.
> 
> I would expect the PQ on the 622 through svideo compared to the PQ on the 625 through the svideo to be comparable. In this scenario, the TV should be doing the scaling on both and the should minimize and PQ difference. Interesting that some are finding it not to be...


I haven't tinkered with the settings much, but the 622 outputs a much better SD signal on the component output than it does on the SVideo port. Neither the component or SVideo outputs match the quality of my antique Panasonic 5-disc DVD changer. My display is a Panasonic projector that does a great job of converting the 480i from the DVD and putting 1280x720 on an 8' screen. The only artifacts it displays are problems with the dithering on flat field. Edge definition is excellent.

The output from 622 SVideo, upconverted to component by my Onkyo receiver, is dismal by comparison. The picture is fuzzy, and edge definition is lost. I don't have it to compare, but seem to recall that the 921 didn't do much better.

SD programming output from the 622 directly to 720p component is generally acceptable, depending on the source material. If the material was an honest 480i to start with, the result isn't quite as nice as straight off the DVD, but pretty close. OTOH, the 622 doesn't have the dithering problem that the Panasonic does.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Interesting Larry.. I would expect the s-video on the 622 to be comparable to the Dish SD DVR. Never have been able to compare the two. Are you saying from your experience the s-video on the 622's PQ is below that of other Dish SD DVRs or have you not been able to make this comparison?


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

The only thing I've found is that the black level on SD channels isn't the same as HD channels. The black level is higher on SD channels and that really shows MPEG artifacts pretty bad on SD channels since the blacks aren't really black.

Mike


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## AVITWeb (Jan 3, 2007)

I know this is a really dumb questions and that there are more knowledgable people around here but...here goes....

Have you checked your cables? What kind are you using?? And are your outlets properly grounded?

And I know I'm gonna get slightly trashed for this one or ignored but..

IMHO any time you 'upconvert' a lower quality signal to a higher one (ie S to component) you are going to have PQ issues.


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## farleyville (Jan 8, 2007)

AVITWeb said:


> I know this is a really dumb questions and that there are more knowledgable people around here but...here goes....
> 
> Have you checked your cables? What kind are you using?? And are your outlets properly grounded?
> 
> ...


I am using the same S-video cable with the 622 that I used with the 625, I am passing 480i on both units, and in that comparison, the vip 622 losses badly...

The s-video set at 480i, performs exactly as HDMI upconverted to 720p, there is another problem here other than the upconversion or cables... And as far as properly grounded outlets, I am using the same powerstrip, same TV, same outlet, same AV, accessories, etc... so the only factor that has changed is the satellite BOX, you cant get a better controlled experiment, and the 625 outperforms the 622 on SD in my situation. Why, I have no idea. Dish installer is coming back to check.


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

farleyville said:


> I am using the same S-video cable with the 622 that I used with the 625, I am passing 480i on both units, and in that comparison, the vip 622 losses badly...
> 
> The s-video set at 480i, performs exactly as HDMI upconverted to 720p, there is another problem here other than the upconversion or cables... And as far as properly grounded outlets, I am using the same powerstrip, same TV, same outlet, same AV, accessories, etc... so the only factor that has changed is the satellite BOX, you cant get a better controlled experiment, and the 625 outperforms the 622 on SD in my situation. Why, I have no idea. Dish installer is coming back to check.


If the installer does anything that makes your sd look better, please be sure and post it here as I am in exactly the same sd boat - same tv, same cables, same power strip, only change was the 622.


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## Larry Caldwell (Apr 4, 2005)

Ron Barry said:


> Interesting Larry.. I would expect the s-video on the 622 to be comparable to the Dish SD DVR. Never have been able to compare the two. Are you saying from your experience the s-video on the 622's PQ is below that of other Dish SD DVRs or have you not been able to make this comparison?


I haven't made the comparison. The SD DVR and the HD DVR may very well be comparable. I upgraded from a 4000 to a 921 at the same time that I bought my projector, and never hooked the projector to the 4000. Also, I never pulled an SVideo cable to the projector, even though there is an input for one. All I pulled was component and DVI, since my Onkyo receiver upconverts SD inputs to component.

The only place I have been using the SVideo output is to a video capture setup. I can't remember the last time I burned SD programming. Normally, I take HD programming and burn it to DVD. Setting my MPEG encoding to highest quality, I can get very near factory DVD video quality by feeding HD programming out of the SVideo port. The audio I capture is only Dolby Surround.

You may recall that there was a lot of experimenting with the 921 to find the best SD output. The consensus was to set the output to 1080i and leave it there, mostly because the aspect ratio bug popped up all the time at 720p. My projector accepts a 1080i input just fine, even though the LCD is only 1280x720. When I got the 622, I first set it to output 1080i, but experimentation showed that the picture was just a tad better at 720p, so that's where I leave it now.

SD programming picture quality varies widely, depending on source. There is about a 50% variation in the amount of drive space that an hour of SD programming uses. It is my opinion that the shows that have less data have worse picture quality. Some SD channels have very nearly DVD picture quality, and some don't even come close. Not so long ago, my locals were virtually unwatchable, but the signal has recently improved greatly. I think the improvement was caused by the TV stations starting to broadcast digital signals. Things have improved so much that I'm thinking about dropping the Superstations package, which has always had pretty good PQ.

There may be some minor variations between the 921 and the 622, but unless I was actively looking for them, I wouldn't notice.


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