# L1.12 to be released next week.... (However...)



## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Just wanted to let everyone know next week a new version of the 721 software will be spooled this coming week.

From what I know this version will be called L1.12

NOTE HOWEVER 

This software is an update to handle some upcoming changes to the Dish Network Data Steam. It contains no fixes or new features. 

The software we have been beta testing is VERY close to being released, as I mentioned in a previous thread the 721 is just cleaning up some of the beta code and making everything ready so they can ship this software to everyone (and it is worth the wait!)

So again there will be a 721 software release next week however no fixes or new features will be in this revision. (also you can expect all receviers to get a software update soon to handle the data stream changes)

There you have it.


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## Danbo (Oct 3, 2002)

Yup. L1.11 comes out, many expecting it to be a big upgrade. Nope. A maintenance release that fixes, from what I've found, one out of numerous problems, and breaks something yet again. And I don't buy the fact that because they "say" they didn't touch the screensaver code that they didn't break it with the "maintenance" release. Only got broke after they sent me L1.11. Anyway, now we're expecting L1.12 to fix some things (that we've expected to be fixed a while ago) and new enhancements (which I could care less about). But once again we're on hold for that. They want to send us something that they need, not something everyone else needs. Yup, let's work on the data stream and forget about fixing the 721 bugs. Works for me.

I'll be calling Dish again this week to continue pointing out the problems I've had since day one, and the ones added with each release. I'm pretty sure they'll send a replacement. Not that it will make a lot fo difference, but some have seemed to experience better results (or at least not seeing their problems for a while) after getting a replacement. I can only imagine though what problem or problems I'll experience once L1.12 comes out. Each and every upgrade has either failed to fix anything, or in most cases, caused new problems. I hate like hell to have a negative attitude here, but this is really getting ridiculous.


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## fishbulb (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *This software is an update to handle some upcoming changes to the Dish Network Data Steam. *


Any news on what these changes will be? Improved picture quality or something less exciting?

Thanks!


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## Patrick G. (Sep 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danbo _
> *Yup. L1.11 comes out, many expecting it to be a big upgrade. Nope. A maintenance release that fixes, from what I've found, one out of numerous problems, and breaks something yet again. And I don't buy the fact that because they "say" they didn't touch the screensaver code that they didn't break it with the "maintenance" release. Only got broke after they sent me L1.11. Anyway, now we're expecting L1.12 to fix some things (that we've expected to be fixed a while ago) and new enhancements (which I could care less about). But once again we're on hold for that. They want to send us something that they need, not something everyone else needs. Yup, let's work on the data stream and forget about fixing the 721 bugs. Works for me.
> 
> I'll be calling Dish again this week to continue pointing out the problems I've had since day one, and the ones added with each release. I'm pretty sure they'll send a replacement. Not that it will make a lot fo difference, but some have seemed to experience better results (or at least not seeing their problems for a while) after getting a replacement. I can only imagine though what problem or problems I'll experience once L1.12 comes out. Each and every upgrade has either failed to fix anything, or in most cases, caused new problems. I hate like hell to have a negative attitude here, but this is really getting ridiculous. *


I totally agree. This forum is great, and I am thankful for Scott's work, but I've never seen anything like this in any of my previous consumer electronic purchases (and that's saying something). Dish promises but rarely delivers.


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## sampatterson (Aug 27, 2002)

Scott, Thanks for keeping us up-to-date on what you hear.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Is L1.12 software that is getting the stream ready for the new update changes, for picture quality/compression/other, or to prevent piracy?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Sorry Jacob I don't know.


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## mattmcg (Dec 12, 2002)

Folks, just remember.......................don't shoot the messenger...


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## Danbo (Oct 3, 2002)

Actually, I'm both happy and sad for Scott. I appreciate the fact he's relaying info on what he's told about these releases. It's sad though that he's all excited, and then things change, making releases we thought would resolve issues turn into something different. It's not his fault though. It just goes to show that Dish has no clear idea what's important to the consumer versus what's important to them.

I'm happy with the 721, as best I can be. It has bugs, all the result of Dish, but it's made things better in my household. Granted it ticks me off that Dish doesn't fix things, and continues to deny that the problems exist, no matter how many people call (each one being told that they're the first to report it). It's not so much the bugs that tick me off as the investment I've made in the equipment and such, expecting something that functioned great from the get go. My new DVD player functions, without problem. My HDTV functions, without problem. My AV receiver functions without problem. All fairly recent purchases (within the last couple years, including the Dish system just under a year ago). Oh, I understand the software part of it. I'm a software developer myself. I just don't understand why those who purchase a 721 seem to get a system that's touch and go at times, debugging it, then being told there are no bugs. I'm tired of being treated like an idiot when I call support. I'm tired of always doing a reboot via their instructions on the phone when, each and every time, it results in nothing. And I'm tired of hearing about new features coming out when what's important to me, at least, is fixing the bugs that already exist.

I don't enjoy hearing that Dish states they didn't touch the screensaver code at all, yet it ceased to operate once L1.11 came out. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

> I don't enjoy hearing that Dish states they didn't touch the screensaver code at all, yet it ceased to operate once L1.11 came out. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...


I really don't think it had anything to do with 1.11 as mine died at the same time and I was running a beta that came out before you guys got 1.11 and it was working and just stopped working at the same time everyone else reported it dying. (I never got L1.11)

I do think (and hope) everyone will like the L1.13 software when it is finally released.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

I'm just hoping that L1.13 comes out BEFORE I trade it in on the 921. 

Actually, check that, I hope they release the 921 sooner so I can start watching HD programming.


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## mgavin (Mar 13, 2003)

If E* really claims they didn't touch the screensaver then I have even less faith in them. I decided to look for myself, in the past I recall seeing where the screensaver was started at boot time on the harddrive. I checked with L1.11 and its commented out. The big mystery is over, E* did infact touch it - they commented out the code so there is no way the screensaver program would ever start. I have no doubt its nothing more then an "oops" on there part but to say they haven't changed it is nothing short of pathetic.


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## treiher (Oct 24, 2002)

> I really don't think it had anything to do with 1.11 as mine died at the same time and I was running a beta that came out before you guys got 1.11 and it was working and just stopped working at the same time everyone else reported it dying. (I never got L1.11)


Well then how is it that everyone's just quit working at the same time? This is very strange. It has to be the software to cause this. Is it possible that they changed your beta version and it downloaded without you knowing it. I mean, how would you know if they left the version number the same? If it's not software, I can't imagine what else it would be.

Regarding the ongoing delays with L1.13 (I guess we are calling it now), I too agree with what is posted here. This is getting very frustrating! I am also greatful for this site and for Scott keeping us updated because without it, we would know nothing! But, I can't hide the fact that I am getting very annoyed by the ongoing delay. Their newest and greatest 721 receiver which is also very expensive has bugs and doesn't do everything their other receivers do. It has been out well over a year now, and still they are messing around with trying to get Dish Weather, Dish Home, and other stuff their less advanced receivers can do. I can only imagine what this new 921 will be like when it comes out. I can see it now . . . "it records HD programs, but we couldn't get the programming guide, caller ID, and a bunch of other stuff on it yet. That will be coming in a future release, eventually." Sure love that word, eventually. It can mean anything. And it will be one more box to write software for and debug. Do they have enough resources for all this? It sure doesn't seem like they do now for what they already have out. Here's a suggestion . . . drop the cost of producing Charlie Chat and add additional software programming resources. They can run promotional and new programming commercials on channel 101 any time they want. For those of us who know how to program our remote control and use the TV/video button on our T.V., that channel is pretty much useless anyway! Sorry for the vent! Thanks for having a place to do it!!


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Its sad this neverending story remnds me of another model that was the best and worst E could offer.

I believe the screen saver was intentionally deleted because I watched the screen saver leak into my programming causing receiver crashes. Since its been gone THAT bug isnt around....


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## DmitriA (Aug 6, 2002)

What do you mean it leaked into your programming?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Again the screen saver was not removed, if you have a USB NIC plug it into your 721 and look for yourself.

It was also not removed from L1.11. (It just stopped working and again it stopped working on mine as well and I have never had L1.11)

Some people just like to hear themselves speak.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

The best (or worst) of both worlds in that Dish could offer a receiver that is so good that its bad, thats the way it seems with the bugs and especially losing signal problems.


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## mgavin (Mar 13, 2003)

Scott - the screensaver binary is infact present with L1.11 - however the script that starts it has it commented out - check out /usr/DP721/system/Hannibal.ini

Actually assuming you have L112 and its fixed you'll then need to check the previous root partition which will still have L1.11 or perhaps some other beta - /mnt/next_root/usr/DP721/system/Hannibal.ini

I'd post the code itself - but I'm sure that would upset E* and its likely against the rules...


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *Again the screen saver was not removed, if you have a USB NIC plug it into your 721 and look for yourself.
> 
> It was also not removed from L1.11. (It just stopped working and again it stopped working on mine as well and I have never had L1.11)
> ...


I saw repeated pixeling matching the screen saver appearance. In SOME way it was removed from everyones receiver.

I dont mind I have a cheap set, not if I had a expensive projection model I might not be happy about it.. As is I am glad its gone, one less bug

In ANY case I find it hard to believe the screen saver bugged out on EVERY receiver. E certinally knows why its gone.

The best and the worst???? What do you think??? Repeated software upgrades adding features, fixing bugs and creating new ones?


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

I too am frustrate when an upgrade breaks features that previously were working. The screen saver problem seems like a simple, yet stupid mistake. I question E*'s QA processes. 

However, it makes me sad reading so many people talking about how frustrated they are that the delays for L1.13 have gone on so long and how incompetent that makes E*. 

It has been stated that E* monitors this group, so.....

I am afraid this will be the last time that we hear ANYTHING about ANY future updates until they are downloaded to our machines. They were nice enough to allow Scott to give us a preview of what they are working on, hoping to get a bit of input and cause some excitement.

But what they are getting is a bunch of complaining and finger pointing. 

I, for one am excited by what we have been shown and hope that E* waits as long as they feel they should before the next update is released. 

Thank you, E*, for the preview.


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## Danbo (Oct 3, 2002)

When you look back at the whole issue with the software update, what may originally have been L1.10 was named L1.11. The features that may be in L1.13 were scheduled to be in L1.11. That didn't happen. Then, when thinking L1.12 would have the features and fixes, that release is instead a way for Dish to do some changes for themselves, pushing what people have been waiting for to L1.13.



> I too am frustrate when an upgrade breaks features that previously were working. The screen saver problem seems like a simple, yet stupid mistake. I question E*'s QA processes.
> 
> However, it makes me sad reading so many people talking about how frustrated they are that the delays for L1.13 have gone on so long and how incompetent that makes E*.


I don't know if it's complaining as much as total and utter frustration. Scott is testing a new version. Unfortunately for him, it may or may not be called L1.13. For all he knows, sometime between now and when it's released, other things might happen that push it to yet another release.

You mentioned the part of QA with Dish. That is a big factor in waht's said. One thing is fixed, others pop up. Dish claims they didn't do anything to break the screen-saver, yet it doesn't function, and happened, at least for me, after L1.11. It could be a coincidence. Regardless, they obviously did something, somehow, that disabled it. What Dish also does, or actually does not, is give people a clue to the status of anything.

What you don't find on the Dish website is their acknowledgement of problems with the 721. You don't find them announcing what changes to the software, including fixes, are scheduled to come out for the 721. If Dish were to cut ties with giving a preview to Scott about what's coming up, supposed bug fixes (with their included unsupported features, aka other bugs), they'd be making an even bigger mistake.

Lack of communication, and acknowledgement, is to me the biggest fault of Dish. I could be patient, to some extent, with getting a fix if they acknowledged the problems on their website, even if you had to log in to see them (so the general public wouldn't). A tentative schedule of what changes are to be sent out, and when, would also go a long way. Instead, if not for Scott, we hear nothing. Without Scott the fires burning inside some people about the status of fixes might burn hotter, and might ultimately get people into heavier discussions here.

Public Relations, showing the customer you hear, you understand, and you care, go a heck of a long way outside of the actual fixes themselves. But what do we get? Tech Support people that say you're always the first one reporting a problem. There's rarely, and I do mean RARELY, a time they've said anything contrary. Honestly, I doubt Dish monitors this group. They may say they do, yet they still do nothing to calm the worries and fears of their subscribers.

I'd wait a long time myself for any "new" features. But I've waited long enough for fixes to the existing problems. How long did it take to get the skip ahead/back audio sync issue resolved? Oh, yeah, it was supposed to be fixed in one release. Nope, didn't fix it there. Patience only goes so far when it comes to issues being unresolved for months and months at a time. I could care less about them adding timer changes, or weather, or any of those nice to haves. What I care about is having a receiver do what I expected it to do from day 1, record the shows I tell it to record, and play them back EXACTLY as they were recorded. As yet, that doesn't happen.

My downside? If I knew of a better alternative to Dish for a dual tuner PVR, and a company that was going to offer the same for a HD receiver, I'd jump right now. As it is, even with the annoyances, I find myself unable to live without the convenience.


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## marshalk (Jun 9, 2002)

whoa


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Its important to not get so negative about future upgrades and delays that they decide were more of a liability than a asset, and only give scott upgrades a week or two before they are released to everyone.

But the overall all fix one bug create new ones is getting old fast. When the 522 comes out I will dump my 721 over such issues. Dont need fancy feature annd glitz internet access, just a rock solid box for watching TV.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danbo _
> *Then, when thinking L1.12 would have the features and fixes, that release is instead a way for Dish to do some changes for themselves, pushing what people have been waiting for to L1.13.*


I agree with most of what you said, but Dish doesn't do these maintenance upgrades just for "themselves." They also benefit us. We don't know exactly what they do, but I'm sure they go towards making the receivers more reliable, improving the guide transmission, and so on. I know everyone's laughing about the reliable comment, but just because these releases don't have any visible improvements doesn't mean they're not for our benefit. Now if they could do them without breaking other things.

Dennis


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *But the overall all fix one bug create new ones is getting old fast. When the 522 comes out I will dump my 721 over such issues. Dont need fancy feature annd glitz internet access, just a rock solid box for watching TV. *


What makes you think the 522 isn't going to have the same kind of problems?

Dennis


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I suspect a bbox without the support internet access and based on a existing model will have a better track record or at least hope so


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

It seems to me that a lot of people are having problems with their 721 s. I for one have had very little problems with mine. At first I had some reset problems , the inability of the adult channel to be subscribed to , etc. All those problems have pretty much been fixed. I am willing to wait for some of the other apps when Dish is ready to get them to us. I am just thankful it has worked as well as it did this season on tv. I missed none of my timers and was able to be entertained all year long. I can remember many more problems and headaches with the dishplayer. Maybe this is the price you pay to have low cost packages and no fee on your pvr. Yes it is pretty much like a digital vcr in some ways but could you ever go back to not having a pvr at all?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

> It seems to me that a lot of people are having problems with their 721 s.


I don't believe a lot of people are having problems with their 721's (other then the screen save not working)

There was a thread a few weeks ago asking if people were having problems with their 721's and it only got two replies.

Now back to the screensaver issue...

If you search the archives you will see I mentioned my therory that the screen saver had a "memory leak" in it, I noticed that before when my 721 started acting wierd and needed a reboot it was after I had the screen saver on the screen for a long time.

Bob mentions that his 721 is acting better without the screen saver which also backs my therory.

I do think the 721 does need a screen saver.

But ultimately I think what the 721 needs is a daily reboot feature. Where every day at a set time (or if your PVR is in use at that the time reboot after that event is finished) your 721 reboots itself.

We must remember that the 721 is really just a Linux computer. And just like the computer it needs to be restarted from time to time to keep it running at it's best. I think it's just nature of the beast.

For those of you who work in the computer industry know that if you take 50 computers and they all have the exact same parts and operating systems in them you know they will all each act a little different. Why is that? No one knows and I think that explains what for 99.9% of the 721 owners they have no problems while the .1% have the wierdest oddball problems.

Just something to think about.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Big Bob _
> *
> 
> But what they are getting is a bunch of complaining and finger pointing.
> ...


I've lived with bugs on the 508 since I bought it in January for $299 plus tax. We should just accept these problems because we like cutting edge technology? News flash...this isn't cutting edge technology. Aside from the larger hard drive...what does a 721 do that a D* Tivo doesn't do? How much more expensive is a 721 vs. a Tivo? How many complaints do you hear from Tivo users? Finger pointing????? Who else do you blame for software glitches???? I am amazed at how much crap some of you put up with!


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Parts are NEVER ALL THE SAME Minor in spec variations combine to produce all sorts of wierd troubles, espically marginal ones.

My 721 right now is OK, forgets to record a occasional show. Doesnt always realize theres a conflict and slows down. At which point it reboots itself or we do. A reboot during a season finale makes Jen  Looses 4 minutes of programming

RIGHT NOW I am not as %$#@! at it as I was earlier. But we backup record EVERYTHING! 

I like the auto reboot nightly or something like that if its user programable. The trouble will be someone trying to go hback in the buffer after a rebooit


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MikeW _
> * How many complaints do you hear from Tivo users? Finger pointing????? Who else do you blame for software glitches???? I am amazed at how much crap some of you put up with! *


Obviously you dont read over at http://www.tivocommunity.com


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Please Scott..don't make me scan through the Tivo Community...tell me what the bugs are! I don't own a 721 so I can't speak for it, but my 508 exhibits the a couple of issues mentioned in other threads here!

1) Search for a program in the guide, find something you like and press select. Instantly, you're returned to what you are watching.

2) Give the thing more than 6 hours of use and you'll likely find yourself getting up to do a reset.


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MikeW _
> *
> 
> I've lived with bugs on the 508 since I bought it in January for $299 plus tax. We should just accept these problems because we like cutting edge technology? News flash...this isn't cutting edge technology. Aside from the larger hard drive...what does a 721 do that a D* Tivo doesn't do? How much more expensive is a 721 vs. a Tivo? How many complaints do you hear from Tivo users? Finger pointing????? Who else do you blame for software glitches???? I am amazed at how much crap some of you put up with! *


MikeW,

Please take my post in context. I am simply saying that I don't think that E* will be very open about future upgrade plans. In my post I said nothing about accepting problems. Please re-read my post.


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danbo _
> *When you look back at the whole issue with the software update, what may originally have been L1.10 was named L1.11. The features that may be in L1.13 were scheduled to be in L1.11. That didn't happen. Then, when thinking L1.12 would have the features and fixes, that release is instead a way for Dish to do some changes for themselves, pushing what people have been waiting for to L1.13.
> *


Danbo,

I think we are in agreement at the base level. I too think that the best way for a company to act is to be as open an honest as possible. It is just the best way in the long run.

Unfortunately, it is very hard for many companies to do this. It takes a very strong commitment and it has to be complete. You can't go part way with total communication.

E* is trying to only go part way, and it is not working. People are getting frustrated and angry.

I see the only path left for them is to shut down communication even further. Unfortunately, the better path (IMHO) is to be more open. But I don't think that E* has the fortitude to do that. Bummer.


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## Danbo (Oct 3, 2002)

> There was a thread a few weeks ago asking if people were having problems with their 721's and it only got two replies.


I sort of remember that thread, but I don't know what replies were made. I went back to look for it, but couldn't find it anywhere. And I don't know what the replies were. Perhaps if someone indicated they had the same problems I was experiencing, I didn't find it necessary to post myself. Dish knows the problems I've reported, although they're always unique. I've even started getting the "no picture" bug when changing channels (occassionally). Audio is fine, but the picture isn't there.

It's hard to have a "single" thread to post problems. Various people have tried it to some extent. Sometimes I'm away from my laptop for a time and may miss things if they fall off fairly quickly. But I know you've seen there are problems as the other posts show them. Although it might not be a bad idea to have a sticky post of "reported" problems, and as subsequent releases come out, a note could be made on each indicating what release it was fixed by. As more problems are reported, a date could be given to each indicating when it was initially reported, and another note indicating if multiple people have experienced the same problem. And, for that matter, some indication of whether the problem was fixed by a RMA of the unit.



> Its important to not get so negative about future upgrades and delays that they decide were more of a liability than a asset, and only give scott upgrades a week or two before they are released to everyone.


Unfortunately, I can't change the way I feel. It's been almost a year since I got my 721, but I'm in that catch 22 point where I can't live without it, yet it doesn't do everything I expected it to do.



> I agree with most of what you said, but Dish doesn't do these maintenance upgrades just for "themselves." They also benefit us. We don't know exactly what they do, but I'm sure they go towards making the receivers more reliable, improving the guide transmission, and so on.


That's fine and dandy. Maybe it does. Maybe it helps resolve other peoples problem. Outside of what Scott's told, what other information is given that tells us WHY they decided to do this instead of fixing the bugs? Not a lot of information is given, hence the issue with communication between Dish and their customers.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

> That's fine and dandy. Maybe it does. Maybe it helps resolve other peoples problem. Outside of what Scott's told, what other information is given that tells us WHY they decided to do this instead of fixing the bugs? Not a lot of information is given, hence the issue with communication between Dish and their customers.


I agree, they should have a section on their website that lists what each software version fixes/adds. I was just disagreeing that they are only doing these upgrades for themselves.



> I think we are in agreement at the base level. I too think that the best way for a company to act is to be as open an honest as possible. It is just the best way in the long run.


The problem with this is that their competitors will use the info against them. If Echostar lists publicly all the known problems with their PVRs, DirecTV will jump all over that. Not to mention all the potential customers who are researching the PVRs to possibly buy one will be completely scared off.

Dennis


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Not to mention that they are a publicly held company and saying stuff publicly directly without the proper legal statements could get them in hot water with the SEC. 

Folks I do my best to pass the information I get to you as I get it. Please don't shoot me I am just the messanger.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Folks, I am frustrated as the rest of you with their inability to get the bugs exterminated (the Golden Can of Raid award will NOT be placed on Charlie's mantle any time soon).

But they are not alone in their refusal to trumpet their problems. Any manufacturer's marketing dept. will ALWAYS trumpet the promise over the actual product they are pushing. Go look at ANY new toy and then come back three years later and see what the real world reaction was as far as product design and reliability goes. You won't see Ford lining up to say how their Thunderbird designs have been falling flat from an engineering standpoint (first the late 80's Beemer wannabe and the current retro version). Early HDTVs were dazzling early adopters at $15000 a pop, but they are now stuck with analog only inputs. DVD Audio and SACD have great sound, but six ANALOG cables are needed, and oh by the way you can't make mixtapes anymore or take it in your car with you.

There is ALWAYS a downside. Some products have greater headaches than others but nobody makes a perfect product, ESPECIALLY in the tech side of things.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *Not to mention that they are a publicly held company and saying stuff publicly directly without the proper legal statements could get them in hot water with the SEC.
> 
> *


What about this publicly held company?


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## bills976 (Jun 30, 2002)

I've owned a 501 and now currently own a DirecTivo and the difference in workmanship is amazing. The 501 would require a reboot at least once a week for no apparent reason... I would change channels and boom, the picture wouldn't show up. Even going through menu options would cause the software to crash on the 501. My T-60 has been rock solid (knock on wood), and while some have reported problems with Hard Drive failure and other similar problems as Scott cited over at TivoCommunity, the quantity of complaints about Tivos is not nearly as great as complaints with Dish boxes. Need we bring up the Dishplayer fiasco?

Honestly, if you were a consumer looking to purchase your first satellite system, and were interested in a PVR, why would you choose the 721 over the Directivo? Other than programming considerations, I can't think of a single reason. The average consumer has heard of Directv... I'd be willing to wager that most consumers haven't even heard of Dish. The Series II is cheaper than the 721 by several hundred dollars. On top of that, I'll bet my life that the # of problems/box is less for the D* Tivos than the Dish PVR's.

People want a reliable product. And while the Directivo has its share of problems, Dish has a history of being very unresponsive to issues its subscriber base has with E* products.


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## Danbo (Oct 3, 2002)

Okay, I've complained about my Dish 721, and complained about the lack of communication between Dish and their subscribers (even if they had something a subscriber could LOG into to see it, so as not to have it visible to the general public). However, while I have visited the Tivo Community to read what they say (seeing Scott's link), I can agree that they don't seem to be experiencing the number of problems Dish has.

But let me also say I was a DirecTV subscriber before turning to Dish. My neighbor has Tivo. I hadn't really seen it, didn't really care to. I got my first small dish (with DirecTV) through an offer available to big dish users. I enjoyed DirecTV. I liked being able to see Xena on the Oxygen channel (which in my opinion is the only channel I find lacking on Dish). Yet, when I wanted to upgrade, DirecTV had NO upgrade path. Unless you were a new subscriber, you had to pay for everything full price. I looked at DirecTV and at Dish. I saw upgrade paths published on Dish for their subscribers. Through searching the web countless weeks, I had found a Hughes HD receiver for DirecTV I decided on. I was going to go along with the cost. Yet it became a hassle trying to get one. People either didn't have it, I couldn't get it through some regular DirecTV resellers, making it overall frustrating. No one at DirecTV seemed to give a rats butt.

Then I found the 721. Not on the Dish page, but through an online retailer. I saw the features. It didn't have HD, but it had two tuners, and there was no Tivo fee associated with it (Tivo still had their fee at that time). I chose Dish. I found their upgrade path fairly acceptable (although I wonder what it will be when the 921 comes out). Through all the problems, the 721 has made life a lot better. I don't miss shows like I used to. Perhaps getting a new unit will solve my problems, to some extent. I sometimes wonder why I am with Dish through these problems. But I don't see Tivo, much less DirecTV doing anything at present to offer a dual tuner HD PVR unit. I'll probably be a sucker and jump on the 921 bandwagon when it comes out. But Dish, while having a lack of communication and bugs, offered more for their subscribers then DirecTV ever did. Trying to get DirecTivo being a current non-Tivo subscriber was like pulling teeth.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

What kind of deal did you get for the 721? The best I can find is at Dish Depot for $519.00.


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## Danbo (Oct 3, 2002)

Remember, I was a NEW subscriber to Dish. Therefore what I paid for the 721 was at least a couple hundred dollars less as a result.


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## cmaier (Nov 5, 2002)

I've had my linux box up for nearly a year without a re-boot. And the cause of that reboot was software i added to the system, not the system itself. 

A linux computer, unlike a windows computer, should not need to be rebooted nightly! Especially when ALL of the software running on that computer is limited to a fixed, testable set, and all the hardware is a known, testable configuration!


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## Bill D (May 11, 2002)

I for one appreciate the fact that Dish actually passes along beta software and info to Scott and allow him to let us know about it. Yes we should already have weather, the internet and many other promised features and less bugs. I think the box is a lot more stable then it was back in July. The unit has been pretty stable of late except for the occasional reboots with the mystery X. I guess the fact that it has totally changed the way my family and I watch TV, I kind of let some of these problems go by without getting too upset.

I am worried that once the 921 comes out that this will take up Dish's time and the 721 will kind of slide away as a mature product and they won't add much as far as features and stuff.

The one thing I would like to see them eventually get to is to make the locks that you can put on channels also work in the PVR menu. My oldest son is almost 5, so I have some time befoe I have to worry about him accessing movies or shows I don't want him to see. But this is something they should take care of.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Danbo...I interpreted "upgrade path" as upgrading current Dish equipment with newer Dish equipment.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Not all computers need to be rebooted all the time. We would have Unix computers on UPSes go many months without reboots. Some would approach a year of uptime before we would have to do a software update that required reboot.

Having the 721 scheduled reboot would be a short term work around, but it is really not hard to find memory leaks, you just leave the unit on a long time and monitor which processes are growing in memory usage.


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## marshalk (Jun 9, 2002)

I tend to agree with cmaier. A linux box does not need regular reboots, nor does linux have a "registry" that gets so full of junk over time that the machine needs a regular reformat and reinstall. Perhaps if we just start bashing microsoft we could give Dish and Scott a break for a few daze. (insert favorite smiley here)


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## cmaier (Nov 5, 2002)

It's also not hard to find memory leaks/corruption (again,
particularly easy when you control every aspect of the boss). There are many software solutions (purify, insure, etc.) and hardware bus sniffing tools, as well.

The 721's software is actually quite simple; there is no technical excuse for "needing to reboot" it all the time.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Can you imagine what it would be like if something not as reliable such as windows would have been used?


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MikeW _
> *What kind of deal did you get for the 721? The best I can find is at Dish Depot for $519.00. *


Call some local retailers. I got mine for $499.

Dennis


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## Cheapbyte (May 21, 2003)

Scott,

I have to disagree with you on the Linux/Unix needing reboots. If applications are properly written, a system should never need rebooting. I had a PC with the Internet record uptime of 5.5 years without a reboot running NetBSD (Variant of BSD, which is similar to Linux). It seems like the DishPVR 721 is running Windows more than Linux because of the reboots.



> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *
> 
> I don't believe a lot of people are having problems with their 721's (other then the screen save not working)
> ...


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## DmitriA (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *Can you imagine what it would be like if something not as reliable such as windows would have been used? *


I dunno... A Dishplayer?


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