# HR24-500 and HBO Picture Quality



## davahad (Jun 2, 2007)

I replaced my HR20-700 and HR21 with 2 HR24-500's and I'm starting to regret it as the picture quality on HBO (True Blood, Entourage, etc.) is just plain horrible. Normally you would have to look close at the screen for picture issues but with the HR24 from a normal viewing distance the faces are all washed out and there is no detail. Also, if you look at the background where the scene stays the same you can see the background image pulsing or distorting in 3 steps. Almost like the picture is OK, then pulses/distorts, and then does pulses/distorts again making it even worse. 

This happens on 2 different HR24-500's and doesn't happen on the network channels.

Is anyone else seeing this problem?


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Not here.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

It's HBO, not Directv. Another user notices it on Fios HBO, as well.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2514289#post2514289


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

sigma1914 said:


> Another user notices it on Fios HBO, as well.


tonyd79 speaks of "blockiness" which is an entirely different symptom.


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## johnp37 (Sep 14, 2006)

No problem here either. Consistent clear, sharp picture ALL channels.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

davahad said:


> I replaced my HR20-700 and HR21 with 2 HR24-500's and I'm starting to regret it as the picture quality on HBO (True Blood, Entourage, etc.) is just plain horrible. *This happens on 2 different HR24-500's and doesn't happen on the network channels*.
> 
> Is anyone else seeing this problem?


This would appear to point to something other than the HR24's...as the probability of having 2 malfunctioning units at the same time is very, very remote.

There could be Dish/LNB issues, multiswitch issues, coax or connection issues, or other things coming into play - just coincidentally after making the equipment switch. Since the HR24 tuners are the most advanced to date, they may be exposing the real problem more distinctly.

If its just on those premium channels, which are brodcast off of one sat, perhaps an LNB is the next possibility in line.

I would suggest you begin to review your connections and the like. Since you didn't mention if you have a SWiM setup (or regular multiswitch), its somewhat difficult to diagnose in a thread like this.

Your other alternative is to call for a DirecTV service tech to come and inspect your setup, citing poor reception.


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## davahad (Jun 2, 2007)

My exact setup is in my signature.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

davahad said:


> My exact setup is in my signature.


Thanks for that added detail.

Since you don't have a SWiM setup...I assume you have the required BBC's on those two HR24's, right? I also assume your sat 103 signal levels are in the 90 or higher range.

If so...then you may need a tech to inspect the remainder of your setup...the LNB is a likely next suspect.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

davahad said:


> I replaced my HR20-700 and HR21 with 2 HR24-500's and I'm starting to regret it as the picture quality on HBO (True Blood, Entourage, etc.) is just plain horrible. Normally you would have to look close at the screen for picture issues but with the HR24 from a normal viewing distance the faces are all washed out and there is no detail. Also, if you look at the background where the scene stays the same you can see the background image pulsing or distorting in 3 steps. Almost like the picture is OK, then pulses/distorts, and then does pulses/distorts again making it even worse.
> 
> This happens on 2 different HR24-500's and doesn't happen on the network channels.
> 
> Is anyone else seeing this problem?


When I replaced an HR20 with an HR24 on my plasma, I had to tweak my brightness, contrast, color, tint ever so slightly from the previous settings to get optimal picture quality. The two were very close, but different to my eye.

Your issue sounds like your contrast or "picture" setting is overdriving your display. If you connected your HR24 to a different input than the HR20 or HR21 was connected to, it's possible that input is still set to the factory default "torch" mode that some display manufacturers like to ship their displays out with, so they stand out against the 20 others that may be on the same wall at Best Buy.

If it is a new input you are using and you haven't already checked this, I would go through your display's video set-up menu and compare the settings you used on your old input to the ones on the new input. If you were using a Panasonic display like mine, e.g., you might be looking at "Vivid" mode, e.g., when in your home, you really want to be in "Cinema" or "Standard" mode, depending on your taste.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for that added detail.
> 
> Since you don't have a SWiM setup...I assume you have the required BBC's on those two HR24's, right? I also assume your sat 103 signal levels are in the 90 or higher range.
> 
> If so...then you may need a tech to inspect the remainder of your setup...the LNB is a likely next suspect.


A bad LNB or SWiM will only affect whether or not a channel is received, or if it pixelates, which is not the issue being described here.

The problem here lies somewhere between the HR and the display settings. It could also be a HDMI cable. It could also be an HDMI compatibility issue between the current HR24 f/w and the Pioneer.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> When I replaced an HR20 with an HR24 on my plasma, I had to tweak my brightness, contrast, color, tint ever so slightly from the previous settings to get optimal picture quality. The two were very close, but different to my eye.
> 
> Your issue sounds like your contrast or "picture" setting is overdriving your display.


...perhaps...but the OP indicated its just with HBO HD...


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...perhaps...but the OP indicated its just with HBO HD...


Good point. I missed that.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> Good point. I missed that.


Hey - you are one of the smartest diagnostic people I know here...

...just wanted to add that data.


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

I haven't noticed worse PQ with HBO than any other channel.


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## John127 (Oct 15, 2007)

I rarely watch movies, but noticed this during a film on HBOW the other night, specifically the pulsing. Also, lighter colors looked somewhat grainy - a weird grainy - and the "grain" is what would pulse. My wife didn't notice the graininess until I pointed it out and she never saw the pulsing but it was very distracting to me.

Not sure how much this is happening with HBO because, like I said, I rarely watch it.
Oh, I have an HR20-700.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

My son and I both have HD TVs here at the house.
We both have been seeing the poorer quality of the feed we are getting. It is on a lot of channels.
If you get extremely close to the TV you can see things shift just a super tiny bit. This gives the picture a grainy effect.
I wonder if it is the new MPEG4 format vs the old MPEG2 format that we were getting. A few of the transponders are still transmitting the MPEG2 feeds.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Steve said:


> =The problem here lies somewhere between the HR and the display settings.


The HD signal can be passed natively by the HR24, or up-converted before passing it on the the 4308CI. The 4308CI in turn can either pass it unaltered to the Pioneer, or up-convert it. Have you tried the various ways to configure the up-conversion in the signal path to see if this could be the source of your perceived video quality issue?

I am receiving my HR24 tomorrow, and it will be placed in the same rack as my HR23-700. I also have a Denon 4308CI. It will be very easy to do an A-B comparison between these two DVR's to see if I notice any difference. I'll report my findings.

Jerry


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## davahad (Jun 2, 2007)

I have found that the TV Video Settings work well for almost every channel except HBO HD feeds. Originally I had my Pioneer ISF Calibrated and it still has those settings saved as I can't change those. However, the TV was ISF Calibrated to the DVD Player and HR10-250 so I stopped using the ISF settings as the picture was looking very soft and washed out.

If I change back to the ISF Video Settings the pulsing goes away on HBO, but the picture looks a bit soft and washed out but better than what I am getting now on HBO. For now when watching HBO I will switch Video settings and for the long term I will either get the TV ISF calibrated again or may try one of the calibration discs like Video Essentials.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jimmie57 said:


> A few of the transponders are still transmitting the MPEG2 feeds.


If there are still HD MPEG2 feeds, you probably aren't seeing them.

The transponder maps show that the original HD MPEG2 channels are still on 110W, but other indications suggest that they are not.


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## davahad (Jun 2, 2007)

JerryMeeker said:


> The HD signal can be passed natively by the HR24, or up-converted before passing it on the the 4308CI. The 4308CI in turn can either pass it unaltered to the Pioneer, or up-convert it. Have you tried the various ways to configure the up-conversion in the signal path to see if this could be the source of your perceived video quality issue?
> 
> I am receiving my HR24 tomorrow, and it will be placed in the same rack as my HR23-700. I also have a Denon 4308CI. It will be very easy to do an A-B comparison between these two DVR's to see if I notice any difference. I'll report my findings.
> 
> Jerry


I turned off the i/p scaler and set the Video Convert to Off for each INPUT Source. When using my TV Video Settings HBO still looks bad and has the pulsing. When I switch to the ISF Video settings the pulsing goes away.


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## JJEZ96 (Apr 21, 2007)

I see this issue also. I noticed it awhile back and it makes it unbearable to watch anything on HBO. I think it has to do with the mpeg4 feed. When I first nothiced it I was still getting the HBO mpeg2 feed. I recorded both channels at the same time and compared the same show. I did not have the problem on the mpeg2 channel, that leads me to believe it has to be a problem with the mpeg4 feed. I think it has to do with mpeg4 compression loss and recompressing to mpeg4. Are there any other channels directv receives in mpeg4 format besides HBO? 

JJ


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

JJEZ96 said:


> I see this issue also. I noticed it awhile back and it makes it unbearable to watch anything on HBO. I think it has to do with the mpeg4 feed. When I first nothiced it I was still getting the HBO mpeg2 feed. I recorded both channels at the same time and compared the same show. I did not have the problem on the mpeg2 channel, that leads me to believe it has to be a problem with the mpeg4 feed. I think it has to do with mpeg4 compression loss and recompressing to mpeg4. Are there any other channels directv receives in mpeg4 format besides HBO?
> 
> JJ


I'm assuming you specifically mean the HBO feed, because there are tons of MPEG4 channels and they work just fine, don't they? In other words, it's not the mpeg-2 to mpeg-4 conversion that's at issue, as it's done all the time. It may be the the source signal from HBO, but not a generic issue with mpeg-4.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...There could be Dish/LNB issues, multiswitch issues, coax or connection issues, or other things coming into play - just coincidentally after making the equipment switch. Since the HR24 tuners are the most advanced to date, they may be exposing the real problem more distinctly.
> 
> If its just on those premium channels, which are brodcast off of one sat, perhaps an LNB is the next possibility in line.
> 
> I would suggest you begin to review your connections and the like. Since you didn't mention if you have a SWiM setup (or regular multiswitch), its somewhat difficult to diagnose in a thread like this...


None of these issues could cause a degradation of PQ. PQ is fixed ansd unchangeable when content is in the digital domain, and the only thing that can degrade it is secondary compression. While it is true that there is secondary compression in DTV delivery, it is the same for all STBs/DVRs/customers so the level of artifacts is the same for every STB. The signal is in the digital domain from the DTV uplink (actually often well before that) all the way to your TV (or at least all the way to the component outputs), so connections, LNBs, SWM, DVRs, tuners, antennae, etc. are exceptionally-unlikely culprits when the problem is degradation of PQ.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TomCat said:


> None of these issues could cause a degradation of PQ. PQ is fixed when content is in the digital domain...


Really?

Apparently you haven't experienced a multiswitch on its last legs or an LNB about to fail...it sure as heck impacts the PQ...

Anything that reduces the signal path or signal strength can impact the PQ as well. That can also include the original content transmission or signal relay from the content provider.

The path from the source to your home is long and complex....many things can impact the PQ along that road...


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

JJEZ96 said:


> ...I think it has to do with the mpeg4 feed. When I first nothiced it I was still getting the HBO mpeg2 feed. I recorded both channels at the same time and compared the same show. I did not have the problem on the mpeg2 channel, that leads me to believe it has to be a problem with the mpeg4 feed. I think it has to do with mpeg4 compression loss and recompressing to mpeg4...


While it is a fact of physics that you can not chain dissimilar compression algorithms together without incurring rounding errors (which translate as increased artifacts), and that is exactly what DTV does when they take a MPEG2 signal and cross-convert it to MPEG4, speaking as someone who evaluates HD and other MPEG-compressed signals for a living and has developed a professionally trained eye in the process, I am still astonished at how good a job DTV does with this.

IMHO they do such a good job that when there is an option to record MPEG2 or MPEG4, I opt for MPEG4 because 1) I see absolutely no difference, and 2) I can get more recordings on the HDD using MPEG4. The conversion may imply more artifacts, but that does not mean it implies more _visible _artifacts, especially if done right, and I think DTV knocked that one right out of the park.

That is not to say that some MPEG2 content doesn't trump some MPEG4 content, or vice versa. Differences in content quality are quite common. But when the original source is the same, it's really just too close to call.

And as you say, HBO may possibly deliver this already formatted to MPEG4 to carriers. In most cases that should make it even better, not worse. The exception would be when the carrier is unhappy with the file size and compresses it once again, but that is rare as usually the vendor and the carrier usually work this out ahead of time so that everyone is happy and the quality is preserved.

HBO has a long history of having as good of a PQ on DBS as is possible, usually above most other channels. I have watched the new eps of _True Blood_, and I see no artifacts above what is normal for HBO, or for DTV, for that matter. I have not seen them with a HR24, but the PQ should be perfectly identical regardless what receiver is used, because the decoding process is identical.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, I received my HR24-500 today. It is now operating in parallel with my HR23-700 in the same equipment rack. Doing an A/B comparison, I see no difference in the PQ for the HBO channels. I tried "Native", and using the 4308 to up-convert the signal. Pristine PQ regardless of what I did.

Getting the remote control set up for two DirecTV DVR's in the same room was much more of a challenge...


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Really?
> 
> Apparently you haven't experienced a multiswitch on its last legs or an LNB about to fail...it sure as heck impacts the PQ...
> 
> ...


I hate to be the one to inform you, but while a widely-held "understanding", that is absolutely incorrect. It is actually the opposite of understanding. It is in fact a total misunderstanding, regardless of how ironically believed it might be. And I completely understand why people might think this; it is the natural extension of understanding analog. The problem is that digital is not in any way the same as analog so extending the metaphor does nothing but confuse us. Digital is completely different, and requires a completely different understanding that has nothing to do whatsoever with what we already understand about analog.

There are many things that can impact signal level along the path, and there are many things that can interfere with the signal that can cause reception issues. But none of them have the ability to have any bearing on PQ whatsoever, as it is locked firmly in the digital domain. It is actually a very sharp distinction, yet still a difficult concept to grasp, at least at first. You have to think about it for a while. For some of us, maybe longer than others. But we can all get there eventually, if we want to.

Invulnerability of PQ is one of the two big reasons digital delivery was developed in the first place (the other being the ability to compress content at a 100:1 ratio with negligible impact to the quality). Nothing, I repeat NOTHING, affects the PQ of content while in the digital domain other than a deliberate recomputation of the binary coefficients (which are what represents the information completely) to convert them to different binary coefficients; something that just can not happen in nature and just does not happen during digital transport or delivery in DBS, other than when deliberately done, such as when recompressed, which is by definition a recomputation of the coefficients; a mathematical operation.

Ones and zeroes go in, and ones and zeroes come out, regardless of what happens to the carrier (regardless of what attenuates or interferes with the carrier). Can you imagine that something "not quite a one" or "a little bit more than a zero" can emerge? Absolutely impossible, as binary math only recognizes two states. That compels the signal information to remain completely untouched and unchanged throughout. Regardless what happens to the signal strength or how much interference there is (within reason, of course) the information is encapsulated invulnerably. It does not change its state.

I would ask that you explain from the point of view of physics exactly how things can change or be changed when in the digital domain, but there would be no credible answer from you, since no other answer exists. I would love to understand how this could be all wrong, but I already know and understand that it isn't. You can still try, I guess. Maybe, in some roundabout way, that can even lead to understanding.

Signal strength is an analog measurement, of what in DBS delivery is an analog carrier. But the modulation scheme and the signal information itself is digital. The signal strength can vary widely with absolutely no affect on PQ. And interference can be extensive, also with absolutely no impact on PQ. The bits, the ones and zeroes, are preserved and can be extracted during decoding either perfectly, assuming the attenuation and interference do not rise to the level of becoming a reception issue, or not at all, assuming that attenuation and/or interference reach such a level. There is no "degraded" in-between state.

But PQ issues and reception issues are two wholely different things with nothing in common. If the signal is so degraded or interfered with that the decoder can't distinguish a one from a zero, and forward error correction is no longer able to aid that process, then you have a reception problem, but not a PQ problem. A picture that has pixelation in it due to too weak a signal or too much intersymbol interference causes a complete breakdown of reception. While the picture may have blockiness, that is not a decrease in PQ, it is purely a reception issue. This only occurs when a signal is on the digital cliff, wavering between perfect reception and no reception at all (and in moments when there is no pixellation you will notice that the picture is still actually as perfect as it is when reception is steady). This has nothing at all to do with PQ. _Picture _quality is defined and measured by how true to the original the resultant picture is, _when reception is not a factor_. It is quite different than _reception _quality.

It is not uncommon for lay people to not understand this. After all, digital is a complete paradigm shift, and a shift away from what we have come to know to be true all our lives about analog. But it is a shift just the same, and it requires a new kind of understanding. It's not a simple concept, I agree. It takes a period of head-scratching to even begin to understand what's really going on.

But the old rules no longer apply. I know it is a hard fact to swallow, but a hard fact is exactly what it is. Open your mind to understanding this and you will see. Or, close your mind to acceptance and remain ignorant; that is the choice we all must face. I understand the reluctance to give up old truths, but those truths have finally become invalid in the digital domain.

We have to get over this. There is no other explanation. There is no theory every proposed here or anywhere else that can trump the actual facts of how digital delivery works and why it preserves PQ perfectly. We have no practical or sane alternative other than to accept these facts. There really is nothing left to say. The argument is over, decided. It is what it is, whether we accept it or not.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TomCat said:


> I hate to be the one to inform you, but while a widely-held "understanding", that is absolutely incorrect....
> It is not uncommon for lay people to not understand this.


OK....I got A's in physics...and while your post is fascinating and has substance in physics truths...attempting to talk down to folks adds no credibility, nor is it pertinent to the OP or my view.

Unless you want to circumvent the parallel vectors contained in an algorithmic asynchronous signal, transmitted via multi-dimensional spacial data transfer device, you can still do extensive variance exposure on the user end. < ----_what the heck did he say?_ :lol:

The OP had a simple observation, and is likely looking for a non-NASA. Like yes or no.

If you want to believe that the local home equipment (SWiM, receiver, Dish LNB, cables, splitters, the HDTV display itself etc.) have *no impact *to PQ...then I guess we just have to disagree.

*hasan* is also correct in his comments...

As for *davahad*, the OP - I suspect post #26 will be of the most value.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> OK....I got A's in physics...and while your post is fascinating and has substance in physics truths...attempting to talk down to folks adds no credibility, nor is it pertinent to the OP or my view.
> 
> Unless you want to circumvent the parallel vectors contained in an algorithmic asynchronous signal, transmitted via multi-dimensional spacial data transfer device, you can still do extensive variance exposure on the user end. < ----_what the heck did he say?_ :lol:
> 
> ...


Sorry, but you're working under a misapprehension here. Because the signal is digital, and the picture information is encoded in the digital signal, then nothing from the dish to the DirecTv receiver (including the multiswitch) can have any effect on picture quality, other than the effects of losing the digital signal completely (pixelation or 771 messages). 
Between the receiver and the TV, if you are using HDMI, same thing applies. The only PQ effect you can get from faulty HDMI cables (or ones that are too long) is "sparklies" in the picture, which are the effect of signal degredation that the HDMI error correction can't overcome. So things like washed out colors, graininess, pulsing etc are caused by one of three things. A problem with the original signal being sent out by DirecTV. A fault in the DirecTV receiver. Or a fault in the TV (including potential effects of faulty grounding).


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## johnp37 (Sep 14, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> Sorry, but you're working under a misapprehension here. Because the signal is digital, and the picture information is encoded in the digital signal, then nothing from the dish to the DirecTv receiver (including the multiswitch) can have any effect on picture quality, other than the effects of losing the digital signal completely (pixelation or 771 messages).
> Between the receiver and the TV, if you are using HDMI, same thing applies. The only PQ effect you can get from faulty HDMI cables (or ones that are too long) is "sparklies" in the picture, which are the effect of signal degredation that the HDMI error correction can't overcome. So things like washed out colors, graininess, pulsing etc are caused by one of three things. A problem with the original signal being sent out by DirecTV. A fault in the DirecTV receiver. Or a fault in the TV (including potential effects of faulty grounding).


Now there is a clear, concise, non-technospeak explanation of the PQ issue without going into a long winded, multi paragraph post which basically says the same thing. If that makes me ignorant,as post#27 implies so be it.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

texasbrit said:


> Sorry, but you're working under a misapprehension here. Because the signal is digital, and the picture information is encoded in the digital signal, then nothing from the dish to the DirecTv receiver (including the multiswitch) can have any effect on picture quality, other than the effects of losing the digital signal completely (pixelation or 771 messages).


I agree with your statement. However, we don't view video on the DirecTV receiver, we view it on our displays. And there are opportunities in the signal path between the DirecTV receiver and the display that can have an effect on PQ. For example, the native resolution of my display is 1080P, so any signal must be converted to 1080P somewhere along the line. This can happen in the DirecTV receiver, in my Denon AVR, or in the display electronics itself. If any of these upconversions is flawed, than PQ can be degraded.

Or am I totally off base?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

JerryMeeker said:


> Or am I totally off base?


I don't think it is reasonable to assume that upconversion is going to significantly degrade program quality.

It would appear that the HR24 may be "punching up" the content too much and the result is something akin to clipping or distortion.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

JerryMeeker said:


> I agree with your statement. However, we don't view video on the DirecTV receiver, we view it on our displays. And there are opportunities in the signal path between the DirecTV receiver and the display that can have an effect on PQ. For example, the native resolution of my display is 1080P, so any signal must be converted to 1080P somewhere along the line. This can happen in the DirecTV receiver, in my Denon AVR, or in the display electronics itself. If any of these upconversions is flawed, than PQ can be degraded.
> 
> Or *am I totally off base*?


You're theoretically correct, IMHO, but only "off base" in that these days, all three of those devices know how to up-convert, scale and de-interlace almost flawlessly. The differences in the algorithms used by today's chips to perform those transformations are minuscule... virtually invisible to the naked eye at normal viewing distances. 10 years ago, the differences may have been greater.

In theory, the "safest" bet is to send everything native and let your display do the final scaling and upconverting, because your display manufacturer has optimized their video processing to match the characteristics of their glass. That said, sitting on my couch, I see no difference in HD PQ on my 65" 1080p plasma whether native is on, or my HR20 or HR24 sends everything to it at a fixed 720p or 1080i.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

harsh said:


> ...
> It would appear that the HR24 may be "punching up" the content too much and the result is something akin to clipping or distortion.


Really? Are you basing this on first hand knowledge?


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

JerryMeeker said:


> I agree with your statement. However, we don't view video on the DirecTV receiver, we view it on our displays. And there are opportunities in the signal path between the DirecTV receiver and the display that can have an effect on PQ. For example, the native resolution of my display is 1080P, so any signal must be converted to 1080P somewhere along the line. This can happen in the DirecTV receiver, in my Denon AVR, or in the display electronics itself. If any of these upconversions is flawed, than PQ can be degraded.
> 
> Or am I totally off base?


 Maybe just a little bit off base, but much more close to home than some posters here. I agree that there are opportunities for PQ degradation after the DVR and before uplink, but the central question I was responding to was whether the DVR, antenna, cabling, connectors, multiswitch, etc., could contribute. Since they only handle the signal while in the digital domain, the answer to that question is still no.

Rescaling can cause degradation, but typically does not. The reason it can, even if in the digital domain, is that it satisfies the one condition I mentioned, which is that a mathematical operation is performed. But there is little opportunity for rounding errors in rescaling. Unless done with a particularly-nasty algorithm, it is usually fully transparent. Rescaling is not truly an "upconversion", which implies a more-significant alteration of the original.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> OK....I got A's in physics...and while your post is fascinating and has substance in physics truths...attempting to talk down to folks adds no credibility, nor is it pertinent to the OP or my view...If you want to believe that the local home equipment (SWiM, receiver, Dish LNB, cables, splitters, the HDTV display itself etc.) have *no impact *to PQ...then I guess we just have to disagree...


 Well, if you think I was attempting to talk down to anyone, then I have failed, and I apologize for allowing you to misinterpret my intent. It's a little tough to please everyone; some accuse me of talking over their heads, and the next post attacks me for talking down to them. But one or both of those are cheap shots, IMO. I understand I am not exactly dealing with chimps here, but not actually knowing anyone here, how am I supposed to win? No one has to read my posts; no one is holding a snubnose .38 to your collective temples. You all have the option just to scroll on by, no blood, no foul; something I find myself doing a lot around here.

It's the internet, ferchrissakes, and a little license in how a person crafts his answer to words on a screen should be allowed without being excoriated for not being able to gauge the level of the audience, right? Unless you are just asking for it, that is .

I will not even try to pretend even for a minute that I don't take pleasure in unmasking lies, even from those who don't realize they are telling them. But I assure you it is not a perverse pleasure and does not come from a negative place. All I was attempting to do here was correct your misimpression of reality and hopefully stop you from perpetrating it, even most innocently, on others. It is human nature to believe what you believe if you are at the point early in your journey where you don't have enough facts to make an educated assessment of the situation. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that, just with your advice regarding what you don't know. I completely understand and identify with that position. I was there once myself. Please don't consider any of this patronizing, as that is also not my intent.

No one is talking down to you, least of all me, simply because I came here with the truth and the truth does not agree with your view of things. Your view is very common. Misplaced and incorrect, but common, and not unexpected, even from normal, intelligent, caring, thoughful individuals, which I hope you are. Your history of posts up to now would indicate that your are. I would suggest not breaking the string now, and maybe we can simply regard your recent dismissiveness towards me as a mulligan. Or not. Up to you.

But I must point this out; I was not responding to the OP, I was responding to your post, which was leading the OP down an entirely wrong path. And that is not entirely your fault; it is very difficult to know any better when advising someone with information that you think is good, but really could not be more wrong. I feel your pain, and it gives me no pleasure. I understand that this is a difficult situation for you or anyone to be in, but then there you are. We can't have this both ways; it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to claim that I have and know the truth, and then in the next breath attempt to shy away from it.

There is no dishonor in being misinformed, and I hope no dishonor in informing, or at least there should not be. But there is dishonor in dismissing facts out of hand without investigating them, and giving bad advice based on a perfunctory understanding of the facts. But it's not a big deal. I don't consider it to be, at least.

And it is not simply a matter of both of us agreeing to disagree. There is the truth, and there are the lies. Since I have the apparent singular luxury in this case of knowing and understanding the truth, I have no choice in what I believe. You are the only one of the two of us with that choice, because you don't yet know or understand the truth and appear to not want to seek the truth. So the only element of agreeing to disagree here is you agreeing to disagree with the truth.

I am not the smartest guy in the room, and I am not here to lord it over anyone or make myself feel better at the expense of anyone else. I have enough confidence in the knowledge to not need that or anything like it. I love to learn and I love to teach, and that's just about my whole story. Intelligence and smarts are different than knowledge. I am not claiming either intelligence or smarts here (but then I also am not claiming not to have them). What I do have in this particular field and in this particular case is the luxury of knowledge, and that's all. And this is knowledge that can just as easily be yours too, if you only want it.

If recent history is any guide, I can't imagine that your mind is open enough, but if you will allow me, I can probably explain the truth to you. It will not be concise, because it is not a simple explanation. It will not be easy nor simple to accept. It took me a while. It will take a little work and/or motivation on your part, but I am still willing to try to lead you to that truth, that is how much I love knowledge and sharing knowledge, even with folks who might take pleasure in cutting me down at the knees. And that open offer will stand for yourself, or for anyone else. All you have to do is ask.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TomCat said:


> Well, if you think I was attempting to talk down to anyone, then I have failed, and I apologize for allowing you to misinterpret my intent. I will not even try to pretend even for a minute that I don't take pleasure in unmasking lies, even from those who don't realize they are telling them.


No worries...nobody's listening.


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## -Draino- (May 19, 2008)

davahad said:


> I replaced my HR20-700 and HR21 with 2 HR24-500's and I'm starting to regret it as the picture quality on HBO (True Blood, Entourage, etc.) is just plain horrible. Normally you would have to look close at the screen for picture issues but with the HR24 from a normal viewing distance the faces are all washed out and there is no detail. Also, if you look at the background where the scene stays the same you can see the background image pulsing or distorting in 3 steps. Almost like the picture is OK, then pulses/distorts, and then does pulses/distorts again making it even worse.
> 
> This happens on 2 different HR24-500's and doesn't happen on the network channels.
> 
> Is anyone else seeing this problem?


Yes I am having the same problem with HBO but I haven't noticed it on the other channels. *It was really bad on Saturday night* while watching that Johnny Depp movie, the one where he plays Dillinger.


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## davahad (Jun 2, 2007)

-Draino- said:


> Yes I am having the same problem with HBO but I haven't noticed it on the other channels. *It was really bad on Saturday night* while watching that Johnny Depp movie, the one where he plays Dillinger.


Is the HBO PQ the same on the HR22 and HR24?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No worries...nobody's listening.


For TomCat: if a person doesn't *know* they are saying something that is false, they are not lying, so please, be as erudite as you like, but when you throw around terms like "lying" (which requires the element of intent to deceive) cavalierly, you besmirch the character of the person, and this should not be done lightly, at least by one with a conscience.

Now, on to hdtvfan0001:

This whole discussion seems to have gone off the rails. If more than one person is perceiving degraded HBO PQ, then something is most likely wrong at HBO's end. If it's only one person, then we need to look at the box and the hdtv.

I don't see anything technically that could could cause mushy, pushy or smeary video as a result of any connection until you get to the D* box, or the TV itself.

In this respect, I agree with TomCat. No dish, lnb, coax cable or poor RF connector can cause the above video issues I listed. (with a D* signal).

The problem can be with HBO, the problem theoretically could be with a malfunction at D*, the problem could be the D* box itself, or the TV, but non-crisp video (to be imprecise) just cannot be caused by poor connections or signal levels in the dish to receiver chain.

Once a pristine signal actually gets into the front end of a D* box, all bets are off, because of the potential for malfunction or even intended manipulation of the digital signal (although poor engineering in the digital domain would be fairly rare these days, as TomCat points out.)

In Summary:

There are plenty of things to go wrong which produce PQ issues these days, but poor connections/electronic malfunctions between the Dish and the Receiver front end are not the cause.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

hasan said:


> I don't see anything technically that could could cause mushy, pushy or smeary video as a result of any connection until you get to the D* box, or the TV itself.
> 
> In this respect, I agree with TomCat. No dish, lnb, coax cable or poor RF connector can cause the above video issues I listed. (with a D* signal).
> 
> The problem can be with HBO, the problem theoretically could be with a malfunction at D*, the problem could be the D* box itself, or the TV, but non-crisp video (to be imprecise) just cannot be caused by poor connections or signal levels in the dish to receiver chain.


Then it seem we are on the same page.

My point is the source could be more than just one thing...and hold by that. Just because 2 or more people see a problem can also indicate those very same 2 or more people have installation issues.

I also agree with you that it may likely be an HBO content or transmission issue, but when a number of other folks indicate they simple don't see the problem at their location...it makes one wonder.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> [...] *There could be Dish/LNB issues, multiswitch issues, coax or connection issues*, or other things coming into play - just coincidentally after making the equipment switch. Since the HR24 tuners are the most advanced to date, they may be exposing the real problem more distinctly[...]





TomCat said:


> None of these issues could cause a degradation of PQ. PQ is fixed ansd unchangeable when content is in the digital domain [...]





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Really?
> 
> *Apparently you haven't experienced a multiswitch on its last legs or an LNB about to fail...it sure as heck impacts the PQ...*
> 
> *Anything that reduces the signal path or signal strength can impact the PQ as well *[...]





hasan said:


> [...]
> I don't see anything technically that could could cause mushy, pushy or smeary video as a result of any connection until you get to the D* box, or the TV itself.
> 
> In this respect, I agree with TomCat. *No dish, lnb, coax cable or poor RF connector can cause the above video issues I listed. (with a D* signal).*
> ...





hdtvfan0001 said:


> *Then it seem we are on the same page *[...]


Don't want to speak for *Hasan *and *TomCat*, but you are most definitely not on the same page. If you re-read their posts carefully, you'll understand that while your basic assumptions may seem reasonable, they are not correct.  Either the digital bits get to the HR intact, or you will see picture break-up or 771's, which is not the PQ issue the OP describes.

That said, why the OP is just seeing it on HBO is still a mystery to me. It almost sounds to me like an HDMI problem,where some folks see "pink" screens, but others don't. But why just one channel? Perhaps the HBO HDMI "handshake" is somehow different and his combination of HR and display sometimes can't resolve it properly? If so, maybe switching to component can confirm this.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> Perhaps the HBO HDMI "handshake" is somehow different and his combination of HR and display sometimes can't resolve it properly? If so, maybe switching to component can confirm this.


That underscores what I have been saying along along...some folks have a problem and some don't...pointing to more than one possible source.


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## Robert L (Dec 13, 2005)

It was kind of interesting to see this thread the other day. I see mostly what the OP is talking about, but wouldn't describe it quite the same way. Also its on a HR20-700. I recently put a HR24-500 right beside it and was comparing the picture. The problem is still there but actually some less.

I've seen it for quite some time, but as for how long, not sure. Maybe it was the start of Mpeg4, but the HBO series the Pacific was doing it rather bad. Also, its always worse with HBO original programming. 

I use a video processor and I've tried every adjustment I can, but it won't go away. I read somewhere, but don't remember what forum, but there was talk about HBO original programming having some kind of issue. 

Yes, its really only on HBO that I see this exact type of problem. It's like a frame by frame pulse or something. Its easier to see when not much movement, like on a person face. It was rather bad on the mini-series, The Pacific. I would freeze it and could see how the picture would go from clear, kind of a smear, then more noise, then back clear. I probably just notice it more on the face than background. 

I assumed it had something to do with compression artifacts, or Mpeg noise, something like that. Plus its not like Directv has a clean picture when up close anyway. 

So, maybe it some kind of combination depending on the type of hardware used and some displays show it more than others. But since its really just on HBO, then I've always found it to be rather weird. I mean I see other types of artifacts on HD channels, but not this type of problem. 

I'm watching it on a front Projector, and the screen is 110 inch so maybe its just more noticeable. But I never mentioned it to anyone else when watching and nobody has ever said anything. But I see that kind of stuff easy, been messing with electronics a long time.

Also, I have two dishes and its the same. I've never bothered to look close at other displays to see if its the same. I just know that its on my projector and I never could get it to stop, so I just try to ignore it. Because in my opinion it was a source related.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Robert L said:


> It was kind of interesting to see this thread the other day. I see mostly what the OP is talking about, but wouldn't describe it quite the same way. Also its on a HR20-700. I recently put a HR24-500 right beside it and was comparing the picture. The problem is still there but actually some less.


That's verrrrry interesting information...as it transcends several generations of video processors, and yet you can distinguish the difference (the 110 inch screen certainly would amplify any anomaly).

Perhaps further evidence its either the content source or else retransmission signal?


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## davahad (Jun 2, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then it seem we are on the same page.
> 
> My point is the source could be more than just one thing...and hold by that. Just because 2 or more people see a problem can also indicate those very same 2 or more people have installation issues.
> 
> I also agree with you that it may likely be an HBO content or transmission issue, but when a number of other folks indicate they simple don't see the problem at their location...it makes one wonder.


Based on all the replies it would seem that there is definitely some issue with the HBO feed. And because everyone doesn't "see" the issue doesn't mean there isn't a PQ issue with HBO. For most it would seem that since they have HD everything then the picture is good. Or maybe they just aren't picky or maybe their TV is too small to notice the issues or maybe they don't get HBO or watch any HBO shows. Or maybe the PQ issue is more apparent on some types of TV's (ie., Plasma vs. LCD).

Also, my neighbor has a newer model Pioneer Kuro Plasma with DTV and I'm going to check their HBO PQ to see how it compares to what I'm seeing.

Appreciate all the replies!!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

davahad said:


> Based on all the replies it would seem that there is definitely some issue with the HBO feed. And because everyone doesn't "see" the issue doesn't mean there isn't a PQ issue with HBO. For most it would seem that since they have HD everything then the picture is good. Or maybe they just aren't picky or maybe their TV is too small to notice the issues or maybe they don't get HBO or watch any HBO shows. Or maybe the PQ issue is more apparent on some types of TV's (ie., Plasma vs. LCD).
> 
> Also, my neighbor has a newer model Pioneer Kuro Plasma with DTV and I'm going to check their HBO PQ to see how it compares to what I'm seeing.
> 
> Appreciate all the replies!!


If you haven't already done so, I'd try two more things. HDMI direct to the Kuro, assuming HDMI is now going through a receiver. If HBO still looks bad, then I'd try component directly to the Kuro.

If either fixes it, you'll know exactly where the problem lies.


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## JJEZ96 (Apr 21, 2007)

Robert L said:


> It was kind of interesting to see this thread the other day. I see mostly what the OP is talking about, but wouldn't describe it quite the same way. Also its on a HR20-700. I recently put a HR24-500 right beside it and was comparing the picture. The problem is still there but actually some less.
> 
> I've seen it for quite some time, but as for how long, not sure. Maybe it was the start of Mpeg4, but the HBO series the Pacific was doing it rather bad. Also, its always worse with HBO original programming.
> 
> ...


My receiver is an HR20-700 with HDMI to a 58" panny S1 and I see the exact same problem.

JJ


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## davahad (Jun 2, 2007)

Steve said:


> If you haven't already done so, I'd try two more things. HDMI direct to the Kuro, assuming HDMI is now going through a receiver. If HBO still looks bad, then I'd try component directly to the Kuro.
> 
> If either fixes it, you'll know exactly where the problem lies.


If I were the only person seeing this issue or if I were seeing it on all channels then I would try what you are suggesting. However, since others are reporting that they are seeing the same or similar problem only on HBO then it seems like a wheel spinning exercise at best.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then it seem we are on the same page.
> 
> My point is the source could be more than just one thing...and hold by that. Just because 2 or more people see a problem can also indicate those very same 2 or more people have installation issues.
> 
> I also agree with you that it may likely be an HBO content or transmission issue, but when a number of other folks indicate they simple don't see the problem at their location...it makes one wonder.


Oh, I very much agree, I can think of 3 sources, just not within the chain I described. I was taking a bit of literary license, when I said more than one having the problem, but I was not very precise. Nevertheless, I think it's been hashed out to the point where the OP can run some experiments. My hunch (and it's nothing more than that), is that HBO has a problem, but I won't be embarrassed if I'm wrong.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

hasan said:


> Oh, I very much agree, I can think of 3 sources, just not within the chain I described. I was taking a bit of literary license, when I said more than one having the problem, but I was not very precise. Nevertheless, I think it's been hashed out to the point where the OP can run some experiments. My hunch (and it's nothing more than that), is that HBO has a problem, but I won't be embarrassed if I'm wrong.


Then again...we're all trying to diagnose this one...and you may very well not be wrong at all.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

davahad said:


> If I were the only person seeing this issue or if I were seeing it on all channels then I would try what you are suggesting. However, since others are reporting that they are seeing the same or similar problem only on HBO then it seems like a wheel spinning exercise at best.


I'm only saying that it's _possible_ there's an HDMI "handshaking" issue unique to HBO's HDCP negotiation that DirecTV needs to address. One way to put that theory to rest would be to connect component and see if the problem persists.

If you ever do decide to test component, I'd reboot the HR after disconnecting HDMI. I've seen reports of HDMI-related issues persisting, even after switching to component, if that HR was first booted with an HDMI connection.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hasan said:


> Oh, I very much agree, I can think of 3 sources, just not within the chain I described. I was taking a bit of literary license, when I said more than one having the problem, but I was not very precise. Nevertheless, I think it's been hashed out to the point where the OP can run some experiments. *My hunch (and it's nothing more than that), is that HBO has a problem*, but I won't be embarrassed if I'm wrong.


I think *Sigma's *earlier post in this thread lends credence to the idea that it's an HBO issue. The fact that some are reporting no PQ issues makes me wonder if it's an HBO/HDMI handshaking issue with some combinations of HR's/FiOS boxes/receivers/displays:



sigma1914 said:


> It's HBO, not Directv. Another user notices it on Fios HBO, as well.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2514289#post2514289


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Steve said:


> I think *Sigma's *earlier post in this thread lends credence to the idea that it's an HBO issue. The fact that some are reporting no PQ issues makes me wonder if it's an HBO/HDMI handshaking issue with some combinations of HR's/FiOS boxes/receivers/displays:


Time Warner Cable in DFW has had this, too. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r24476356-Re-Cable-DallasFt-Worth-Metro-Vol-I-Time-Warner


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## michaeldb (Jul 13, 2010)

I found this thread because I was doing a search on this exact problem. It is only occuring with HBO, my other channels are fine. I am going to try recording my HBO programs (Hung, True Blood, and Entourage) from HBO2 HD and see if that makes any difference. I will let you know what I see.


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## JJEZ96 (Apr 21, 2007)

I tried hooking up component cables and I am getting the same problem. It is not an HDMI issue. I have also noticed the problem on MAXe, but it is not as obvious.

JJ


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

JJEZ96 said:


> I tried hooking up component cables and I am getting the same problem. It is not an HDMI issue. I have also noticed the problem on MAXe, but it is not as obvious.
> 
> JJ


Thanks for that added data...

Based on multiple reports with multiple setup...all seeing the same thing...it sure seems to point back to either HBO's source content broadcast...or else the retransmission relay somehow.


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## -Draino- (May 19, 2008)

The problem seems pretty much diagnosed. So what do we do? Do we call HBO, DirecTV or someone else that can FIX the problem?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

JJEZ96 said:


> I tried hooking up component cables and I am getting the same problem. It is not an HDMI issue. I have also noticed the problem on MAXe, but it is not as obvious.


You've probably ruled out HDMI, but my only question is when you tried component, did you pull the HDMI cable from either the box or the display reboot the HR before testing? If you did, then we can put that theory to bed.

I know for a fact on the HR24-100's that an earlier HDMI-related problem persisted when switching to component if you didn't disconnect and reboot before testing.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

I'm having the same problem but it's not only on HBO. Granted, it does appear worse on HBO but every channel has the poor picture quality issue. I have noticed that it seems worse on shows with low lighting like Trueblood or the Harry Potter Movies on HBO. Dexter on Showtime looks pretty bad as well. 

Here is a brief history of my issue and my setup:

I upgraded to HD with directv in early 2007-

I have a 3yr old 42" Panasonic Plasma 720p connected to a Directv HD-DVR model HR22-100.

I also have a 1 yr old 42" Vizio 1080p LCD TV which was connected to a directv HR22-100 as well.

Both televisions have the same problems as indicated by the person in the first post of this thread. "washed out faces, pulsing etc)

In June I started noticing that the picture quality on most channels was not great and especially bad on HBO. I called directv last week and requested a service call.

The tech came to the house and told me my LNB was out of date and replaced it. He also checked all the cables etc. It didn't fix the issue. He then replaced the HR22-100 on the 42" Vizio with a brand new HR24. That too didn't fix the issue.

He finally threw his hands up and said that he sees the distortion on the screen but has no idea what is causing it. He suggested i call directv and schedule another service call but to ask for a different tech since perhaps another tech would have better luck.

The next day two techs showed up. Right from the start their attitude was "It's not from our end, must be your tv". One of the techs even said "were not electricians so we have no idea". They decided to unplug the HDMI and plug in cheap component. They turned the tv to ESPN which was brightly lit so the problem was tougher to see. They requested that I give it a day and see if shows start looking better. They didn't. 

To make matters worse the new HR24 suddenly lost volume while we were watching a show later that night. I did a reset (pressed red button) and everything worked okay after that. This all happened on Monday July 12th.

On Tuesday July 13th the HR24 started freezing during live shows or recorded shows and had to be rebooted again.

When I talk to the techs in person or on the phone they quickly blame it on the tv. When I tell them I have two different tvs with different resolutions and type (1080p vs 720p, LCD vs Plasma) they quickly back away from that argument.

All the techs tested the cables and said the volts were fine and that the signal was strong. 

Meanwhile all the channels look either horrible or mediocre. Shows that are brightly lit have the same issue but it's tougher to notice.

They had to replace one of my HR22-100 after a recent software update. I read that lots of receivers had issues with it. 

I wonder if the software update that caused all that trouble is also behind the drop in picture quality. I wish I could remember if the software update happened at the same time the picture quality dropped but I can't.

Either the Signal is garbage before being transmitted to our homes OR the signal is fine but the recent software upgrade is still messing up the dvrs so the picture quality is bad.

I'm very glad to have found this thread. I hope that if anyone find a fix or gets a response from directv that they will post it here.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

I just wanted to add that anyone dealing with these issues should post them on any social networking site that they belong to. Especially facebook and twitter. If word spreads about this issue it might cause Directv to move faster in fixing it.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

I watched shows last night on both HBO and HBO2 on my 50" Panasonic plasma. I tried very hard to notice what people were complaining about here. I couldn't see a thing. Sorry. It just isn't there to me.

I go back to this answer in another thread on this subject. If, when you are raising your garden, all you see are the weeds, you'll never notice the beauty of the flowers. I know it is a terrible answer to those with this problem. All I can say is that it's taken me thirty years to realize the truth in it.


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## johnp37 (Sep 14, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> I watched shows last night on both HBO and HBO2 on my 50" Panasonic plasma. I tried very hard to notice what people were complaining about here. I couldn't see a thing. Sorry. It just isn't there to me.
> 
> I go back to this answer in another thread on this subject. If, when you are raising your garden, all you see are the weeds, you'll never notice the beauty of the flowers. I know it is a terrible answer to those with this problem. All I can say is that it's taken me thirty years to realize the truth in it.


Likewise, I just don't see it. All my HBO channels look fine on both my LCD Sonys(HR24s) and my LCD Vizios(H24s)


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

Well, the software update that "bricked" so many dvrs didn't effect 100% of directv customers either. It caused problems for a lot of customers but some were lucky and didn't have issues. In fact in my house one of my hr22-100 dvrs were ruined by that software update while the other hr22-100 seemed unaffected. So I don't doubt that whatever is causing the recent loss of picture quality won't effect 100% of directv customers either.

btw: The issue is easier to notice on tvs with higher resolution. I can see the screen distortion much easier on my 1080p then on my 720p plasma.


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## Robert L (Dec 13, 2005)

Carl Spock said:


> I watched shows last night on both HBO and HBO2 on my 50" Panasonic plasma. I tried very hard to notice what people were complaining about here. I couldn't see a thing. Sorry. It just isn't there to me.
> 
> I go back to this answer in another thread on this subject. If, when you are raising your garden, all you see are the weeds, you'll never notice the beauty of the flowers. I know it is a terrible answer to those with this problem. All I can say is that it's taken me thirty years to realize the truth in it.


Well, I don't look for it and I never bothered posting either. I knew nobody could answer why, and I'd see hints here and there with other people bringing it up at times. So I knew it wasn't just me. Plus I do have quite a bit of experience with video displays, consumer electronics and even repair, because of family type business that I've been involved with at times.

Also, no doubt the screen size helps me see it. But with the Pacific I'd seen it on any scream size myself. That was distracting. All that noise moves in steps, its not smooth. Its like a jerk step. I even messed with the frame rate output of my processor but it did nothing as I expected. I was mostly playing, but still anyone that's ever had problems with a HTPC outputting 24p wrong, knows how the video will stutter.

I mean it really 23.976 and most all blu-ray is that way, but if the exact 24fps is output, you going to end up with a stutter in movement from drop frames. People argue about seeing that also. But of course that's not whats causing this problem. I just find that jerk type noise change weird.

But I can take the 1080i signal and change it to 1080p/24 to the projector and HBO still has that silly step movement change in video quality.

Watching True Blood last Sunday, it was there but not as as bad as I have seen it. Far as the other channels, well maybe there a little bit of it but HBO seems to be in a class by themselves. Which is odd considering you'd think they would be one of the best.

But on a show like Dexter, I really don't see it. I don't count walking up to the screen looking for noise.

Since some threads here have come up about it, I'm going to look at some other types of displays just to see how they look. I just never bothered before. My projector is DILA, so I can check a LCD panel and also a HD CRT type rear projection. That's three totally different types.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

my receivers are HR24-100 and HR22-100


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Anybody seeing the issue on HR20's? If not, I wonder if people are only seeing it on the "3-D" capable receivers (HR21-24). Maybe that new software capability combined with certain displays might have something to do with the issue? Only problem with this idea is it wouldn't explain similar poor HBO PQ reports from TWC and FiOS users.


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## JJEZ96 (Apr 21, 2007)

I see it on my HR20 and I have been seeing it since last november.

JJ


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

Now My hr24-100 is freezing up more. It will freeze during pre-recorded shows. I also noticed that sometimes If i set it to record a show that lasts one hour that instead of one recording I get two. The first recording lasts about 10 minutes and will often freeze somewhere around the 5 minute mark and the 2nd recording is 40 minutes and also will freeze around the halfway mark.


I'm becoming more and more convinced that the problem behind the drop in picture quality is the recent software updates and there effect on the dvrs.

I know it's not just a particular tv type since I have different types of tvs and all have the same issue. I know it's not signal strength issue because they replaced my LNB and signal is strong. I know it's not the cables that connect to the dvr because those were tested by about five different techs and each time the result was that the cables had the proper volts. 

The problem now is that if I'm correct and the software updates have wreaked havoc then how the heck do we fix this?????


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Nflguy said:


> [...] The problem now is that if I'm correct and the software updates have wreaked havoc then how the heck do we fix this?????


You're probably experiencing more than one PQ issue, tho, because the HBO issue is being reported by TWC and FiOS users as well.

That said, best thing to do is to keep reporting these issues in the appropriate "issues" thread for whatever s/w version you're running so DirecTV knows there's a problem and can address whatever is under their control.


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## michaeldb (Jul 13, 2010)

michaeldb said:


> I found this thread because I was doing a search on this exact problem. It is only occuring with HBO, my other channels are fine. I am going to try recording my HBO programs (Hung, True Blood, and Entourage) from HBO2 HD and see if that makes any difference. I will let you know what I see.


I rerecorded the shows on HBO2HD and they show none of the issues that the shows did when recorded on HBOeHD or HBOwHD.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

I have recorded shows like trueblood on all of the HBO HD channels and it's always the same poor quality.

For those that only have this issue on HBO, you should feel fortunate. All of my channels look like that.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

I will say that the problem is a little less noticeable on my 720p Panasonic Plasma then it is on my 1080p LCD. That's probably because the Plasma has a lower resolution.


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## davahad (Jun 2, 2007)

michaeldb said:


> I rerecorded the shows on HBO2HD and they show none of the issues that the shows did when recorded on HBOeHD or HBOwHD.


Going to try recording True Blood on HBO2HD tonight to see if it is any better.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

davahad said:


> Going to try recording True Blood on HBO2HD tonight to see if it is any better.


I did this last week. HBO2HD was beautiful...HBOWHD was a mess.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

Directv coming back because both my hd-dvrs are crapping out.

I told them that one of my dvrs is an HR-24 and I don't want it replaced with a crappy refurb hr-22. They said they don't know what will be on the techs truck but i can refuse a replacement if he doesn't have any hr-24's

I'm convinced the software update is causing most of the issues. The update happened June 7th or 8th and I first noticed the problem on June 9th. So I asked if the dvr can be set to a previous software. They said no. 


I told them that online blogs indicate there are other people with the same issue. The directv rep responded that they had not heard any complaints.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

sigma1914 said:


> I did this last week. HBO2HD was beautiful...HBOWHD was a mess.


I was about to ask...

Have folks seen any change/improvement this week?

I've been watching Showtime this week...and it seems just HD peachy.


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## marquitos2 (Jan 10, 2004)

sigma1914 said:


> I did this last week. HBO2HD was beautiful...HBOWHD was a mess.


My DVR HR 24-100 the PQ is good, no complaints about any channels. Also the SD channels look pretty good, meaning the unit converter is a good and an improved one, compare to the HR23-700.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

marquitos2 said:


> My DVR HR 24-100 the PQ is good, no complaints about any channels. Also the SD channels look pretty good, meaning the unit converter is a good and an improved one, compare to the HR23-700.


What kind of tv do you have???


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

Today they replaced my HR24-100 that had been freezing up with a new one. I still have the same poor quality picture. 

The techs checked the signal and the cables and said both were fine. They have no idea whats wrong.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Nflguy said:


> Today they replaced my HR24-100 that had been freezing up with a new one. I still have the same poor quality picture.
> 
> The techs checked the signal and the cables and said both were fine. They have no idea whats wrong.


Hmmm....

If the DVR/receiver is fine.....and the signal is fine.....and the cables are fine....

On your end....there is not much left other than the HDTV (settings?) itself or multiswitch, neither of which would seem to impact just that 1 channel.

That would seem to leave the content provider/broadcast...


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> If the DVR/receiver is fine.....and the signal is fine.....and the cables are fine....
> 
> ...


It's not the HDTV settings. This is happening on two different types of HDTV'S and the settings have not been changed (while the PQ used to be great on both until recently).

I'm leaning towards broadcast but if that were the case wouldn't everyone have the same issue and not just some of us?

The HR24 they installed today didn't have the recent software update yet. It listed it's last software update as being done in January. But when installed it had the same pq problems as the previous HR24 and the HR22-100. So that gives me doubt that the recent 3d software update is the problem.

This is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo frustrating.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Nflguy said:


> It's not the HDTV settings. This is happening on two different types of HDTV'S and the settings have not been changed (while the PQ used to be great on both until recently).
> 
> *I'm leaning towards broadcast but if that were the case wouldn't everyone have the same issue and not just some of us? *
> 
> ...


Yeah...I was just listing a "process of elimination list".

Can't explain variances in some folks seeing the problem and others not (but its not the first time such a thing was reported)...but I agree it sure seems like everything is pointing to the original content/broadcast and/or relay of that thought the transmission channels somewhere.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

One on of those new hr-24's they installed today, suddenly none of my hd channels show up. The local broadcast channels in the guide have the station call letters so they should be hd but when u click on them they are clearly standard def. UPDATE: Installer had set the hd channels to be hidden.


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## djrobx (Jan 27, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I was about to ask...
> 
> Have folks seen any change/improvement this week?
> 
> I've been watching Showtime this week...and it seems just HD peachy.


Showtime has always been fine. It's HBO and Cinemax that have issues.

My HBO has always looked crappy - even crappier than it did on U-verse. No change from HR22 to HR24. There's no signal loss - these channels just look like a mediocre MPEG-2 channel I'd get from Time Warner, with MPEG-4 artifacts added in.

To be clear, MPEG-2 artifacts tend to be more obvious - color loss and blockiness. These aren't coming from the MPEG-4 encoding, so DirecTV must be using a poorer quality source, possibly the same one they were delivering directly to customers on channel 70. Thing with MPEG artifacts is that that lossy encoding is designed to work by removing information that is least likely to be perceived. That means the perception of these issues varies from person to person. Some will think it looks just fine - it's generally sharp and colorful. Once you know what to look for you can more clearly identify the issues. I've been working with MPEG video encoding since 1994, so I'm more sensitive to encoding PQ problems.

Showtime, Starz, and Movie Channel and pretty much all the rest of my HDs look great.


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## Nflguy (Apr 1, 2007)

I watched CSI-NY on CBS tonight. In brightly lit scenes it looked like good hd. In dark or dimly lit scenes it was fuzzy and had lots of "noise". If it was the compression or whatever wouldn't the whole show look like crap?

I watch Dexter on Showtime and it's the same deal with it. In bright scenes it looks okay with just some minor digital artifacts and pixelation. In dark scenes the whole screen seems fuzzy and not crisp HD.


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## WyoDTVuser (Dec 12, 2010)

NFLguy Hey I have the same exact situation I see you talk about on here and direct TV's forum, I recently changed from dish network to direct and that is when the grainy picture poor SD channels and they seem worse on my 52 in. right now I Have had the tech out 2 whole days they swapped equipment around no change but I have 2 x HR24-500 and 2 x HR24-100's I'm still in the installation phase it's only been a week and they haven't resolved the problem I was curious if your's was ever resolved? I haven't seen a recent post from you and was hoping you had more information. I was willing to give it a chance if my Dish video quality was better I didn't expect to have this issue with the HR24's I liked the whole house dvr sharing but I'm disappointed with the grainy, pulsing, washedout picture quality. Thanks


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> If the DVR/receiver is fine.....and the signal is fine.....and the cables are fine....
> 
> ...


The DVR is the same, but that model could still have a bug or design flaw. Neither the signal nor the cables have been changed, and may not be fine. (Though the cables are likely OK).

So we still don't know much, except that some people are not happy.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bobcamp1 said:


> The DVR is the same, but *that model could still have a bug or design flaw*. Neither the signal nor the cables have been changed, and may not be fine. (Though the cables are likely OK).
> 
> So we still don't know much, except that some people are not happy.


On the other hand...a number of others with the very same unit DON'T have that issue....making a bug/flaw far less likely.

Reports on HBO HD inconsistent HD quality have been out there for some time, well before the HR24 showed up.


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## WyoDTVuser (Dec 12, 2010)

HDTVFan,
I have had Dish Network for 6 years, these issues people are blaming HBO content for I don't get, I never have had those problems on my VIP 622 on HBO or any other HD channel and my SD channels were not perfect but way better then Direct it almost appears Direct has lower resolution then Dish. I have new TV's and both had previously good signals with Dish and good signal with Direct but the picture quality is grainy, pulses - I actually still have my dish hooked up and it doesn't have the same issues, the installer has said that they have offered older equipment that doesn't seem to have the problems which in some ways admits there is a issue, I'm on vacation so tomorrow they are going to spend another whole day and I'm serious "whole" day (day 3). I was hoping to find someone that can offer solution, both companies have advantages but when it comes down to it I don't care about the options if the picture has problems. Anyone have ideas that may clear up this issue and yes I do see it happening on several HD channels, not just HBO but it is more noticable on HBO. I sure hope the engineers of this equipment reads these forums.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

WyoDTVuser said:


> HDTVFan,
> I have had Dish Network for 6 years, these issues people are blaming HBO content for I don't get, I never have had those problems on my VIP 622 on HBO or any other HD channel and my SD channels were not perfect but way better then Direct it almost appears Direct has lower resolution then Dish.


I've seen HBO HD on Comcast, TWC, Cox Cable, Dish, and DirecTV - its below the quality I see on other movie channels on all of those carriers.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> On the other hand...a number of others with the very same unit DON'T have that issue....making a bug/flaw far less likely.
> 
> Reports on HBO HD inconsistent HD quality have been out there for some time, well before the HR24 showed up.


Then I would attribute the issue as source signal problem at content provider site or/and by [re]compression in effect by content delivery provider - could be caps (in the mux) or statmux profile or software version inside of H.264 encoders what could create sort of incompatibility with SW versions in STB.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I've seen HBO HD on Comcast, TWC, Cox Cable, Dish, and DirecTV - its below the quality I see on other movie channels on all of those carriers.


Yepp. Looks bad on my HR24 and HR22.


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